# post ea/pa fog she is taking steps to move out



## disbelief

*after ea/pa ?fog? she is taking steps to move out need more help*

My other thread was to long. The dynamic I feel has changed. We are about 9 weeks since d day. As far as I can tell there has been NC with OM in 2 weeks he told her to stop. She came home very angry today about several things that she did not like the way I handled them it revolve around the kids. She soon after told me she picked up papers from the courthouse. She would not say what papers I assume D papers. She wants to buy property and needs a mortgage and this not be her primary residence to do so. She got angry said she was done with all of this. She has not actually asked for the D. In the first part of the conversation when I asked so is this it are we done she did not answer the question. I figure she will give me papers by the end of the week. Are there even any steps to take at this point. Any other threads to refer me to. She doesn't want to talk about it she only sees out as the only fix.
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## F-102

She STILL wants you to drop the D-bomb first!


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## disbelief

Well she finally just said she at least wants a sseperation our MC suggested that so that's how I suggested it. She said it you r right 102. She wants me to make it easy and say it but I wont. I think I can handle a seperation before aD at least it would allow some of her anger to chill I hope. She has a warped sense about child support etc. Can't talk money without a mediator she just gets mad.
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## disbelief

She was sad enough when she said it to let me hold her for the first time since D day does that mean a thing. She feels the need to be free. She has always been taking care of or answering to someone. She said she would still goto councilling. I told her I wasn't going to try to stop her. Reminded her I still love her and want to fix it. The thing I don't get is she has never made a final statement like we are done or this marriage is over. Why is that.
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## F-102

Remember, she may want to play the victim card, if not to get a good settlement, then she can say, with a clear conscience, that she never wanted the D-YOU were the one who demanded it first.
Just please, make sure she goes along with a LEGAL seperation.


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## disbelief

That may be easy because bank may not recognize anything less I need to do some research my heart says seperation because I don't want my M to be over. I know messed up
Since I want to save my M do I stick to my guns on the separation hoping maybe my W decides she wants to work on the M?
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## disbelief

As I sit here with my daughter crying over homework I want to scream at what a selfish act my W has done and the final impact it will create because there will be even more crying when they know what is really going on that will just be a blast.
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## 8yearscheating

You need an attorneys advise based on the laws of your state. If you agree to a seperation, your chances of reconciling go down. If you don't agree and she moves out, it may be considered abandonment which could improve your custody and child support rights from her if she does file. An attorney could tell you what the state laws are and how they are recognized or considered in court. Fortunately, I've had the same attorney for years and he did not bill me for some questions. You have to protect yourself legally regardless of whether you want to work it out. She is obviously pushing it legal. I told my wife that no matter what happened, we should use the same attorney and do whatever without malice. My attorney told me a D was $2000 that way. With two attorneys he told the costs typically go $20 K each and he presently had a case that was at $40K each. He also said MI has no fault divorce so I didn't matter who filed first and abandonment only effected custody. I told my WW that I would not pursue the legal side other than questions because that was not where I wanted it to go. Same with her moving out. I also told her if she moved out, we would seperate all bank accounts and credit cards and she would be responsible for 50% of the mortgage and all home expenses as well as groceries, and everything for my youngest daughter. It didn't look so good to her then. I would NOT let her sign over the house to clear her credit for another place. Too hard to reverse if she decides to move back. NO MAJOR DECISIONS FOR 6 MONTHS PERIOD. Don't enable her.


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## disbelief

I needed that perspective 8. I will need to find out more about out the laws here. Initially her idea was that if we work out it would be income property. And it has an inlaw apt that she is justifying for a family member. That is the back story. I will delay. She doesn't want to rent because she can mortgage this at rent cost. She finally strted talking the last couple days so i was trying to hold off points for argument. She was willing to sign over the house. She is still very emotional. She said today she just doesn't want to be married anymore. I am still processing this info so........ She has maintained since 8 weeks ago she needs space. I will try the 6 month card she agreed to it for seperation over D but she wants to buy that process should take a couple months. The less I fight the house the more she's been starting to talk.
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## disbelief

Ok so we just talked quite a bit mostly about how to seperate but the shimmer of light would be that she hasnt completly closed the door on this R she could have chosen the D papers. She could say no more MC. She does not respond to any questions about how she feels about me. She feels she is not worthy of anyone. So is this workable is this the fog? Signing the paper only starts the process still gives time in this house. What should I work on?
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## 8yearscheating

Same with mine at your stage. She is confused and not sure if you two can work it out so she is taking the easy way out saying seperate and possible D. Mine did too until she saw I was honestly willing to work through it and began to get some confidence I wasn't still on the fence. Again - stay the course - NO major decisions for 6 months on your part. If she goes ahead, well then address it. Just get that leagl advice. If she starts pushing, then tell her what you found out - in a non confrontational factual way, then drop it. Don't get into an argument.


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## disbelief

She is going to file a paper it is a matter of when she said by friday either way she is fixated on buying this property. If we reconcile it could be a good purchase if I fight her that's all it is gonna be is a fight. She knows I don't want her to move out. She can't see any other way. She needs the paper for financing and in. The same sentence she says she may feel different in 6 Months. Some of her comments and actions make me think she truly is confused. But she may truly be done. 
Affaircare and others is this a good time for trying small kindlers?? What to do?
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## Eli-Zor

She is manipulating you, rule is you do not agree to or sign anything unless legally forced to. 

Buy time, every day she cannot move out is a day closer to saving your marriage. You use this time running Plan A no matter how hard it is. Message is you delay , delay, delay...

If she moves out it must be without any support from you directly or indirectly, if this happens she is abandoning the family, you hit her (figuratively speaking) with the maximum amount you can legally have her pay, including the mortgage of the house. 

Then you cut into Plan B and go dark... She must struggle financially and has to experience the loss of your love and your children .


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## 8yearscheating

Check with a lawyer ASAP on abandonment and what it means if she pursues d. Stall don't enable. Your schedule not hers. Be clear that separation is not what you want because it lowers the chances of R and you will not support it in any way
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## 8yearscheating

The other crap about a good investment will also be true in the future
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## 8yearscheating

Don't fight just state then walk away
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## disbelief

She is going to file something either way she said I don't have to sign it she needs if filed for her finance if she does it I can't stop her I need a legal consult that doesn't cost 300 an hour. She doesn't plan on leaving here until she buys thatt will take a month or two. Hate this.
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## disbelief

Just read the abandonment law her plan includes ensuring this marital home and children are all set. I know cheaters are liars but she does care more for her kids. And has maintained since day 1 she would leave. I wish I could fix it. I will seek consult thanks all.
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## 8yearscheating

If you don't sign she can't finance - is that what your saying - then why sign? The idea of abandonment tells her you don't agree with her leaving and that there are consequences if she does. It won't be acted on unless she leaves and files for D. I know she cares for her kids and you want to keep it amicable even if she files for D. But will you give up the custody and support for your kids? Again, it is a consequence of her taking action on her own you don't agree with because you want her to stay. Does she plan on paying half the mortgage on the family home she committed to even though she signs it over along with half of all the home expenses and care including day care and baby sitters and feeding of the kids? Has she agreed to sign something saying she will? Are you working and able to support everything on your own? Is she the major bread winner which means she should be responsible for more than half? Are you going to seperate bank accounts and credit cards? What if she spends the money she makes on a vacation to Hawaii with the OM or out bar hopping and hotels? Would that change your mind? I know you want to R. You need to think about what happens in the future if she doesn't come back and prepare for the worst, then hope for the best.


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## 8yearscheating

Again, be factual not confrontational. Walk away if you find yourself arguing - don't do it and allow her to jive you into it. Engage brain before opening mouth. Don't let all the blood flow south or you won't be able to think! You won't be destroying anything, just encouraging her to think about the end results.

Ask around to friends and family about a good attorney. If your parents have been using one for years, he may not charge you to ask questions like mine did not charge me.


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## disbelief

Our incomes are about equal her potential is greater she wants to do 50 50 everything we can't discuss without a mediator she gets screaming mad
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## disbelief

Well we just talked I asked her when she was going to file she said she didn't know I asked her just to file the seperation she doesn't see the point so I said then just give it 6 months. For our brains to settle. She didn't get why but calmed down. I told her I would not stop her from buying because that she would not go for. I am buying time. But she could still file. I got the ok whatever. Told her about someone who filed and was done in a month she is sure it would take 6 or more no matter what she does need space this is getting more stressful not less
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## 8yearscheating

I still would not support in any way her moving out. If she does it on her own without your involvement or without your name on it, then that's her problem, not yours. The space crap is part of the fog. The stress will be even higher for you if she moves out.


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## disbelief

I am not financially supporting it she is already doing it and working extra to pay for it. She is making sure things r set here also for the kids of course. I would love to argue about house she wants go buy with her but she is going to do it no matter what. She will qualify without me. If I can buy some time before she signs a D and it takes time for the real estate transaction she will still be in this house.
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## 8yearscheating

Good luck an I mean that. Stay strong and work on yourself. The changes I made were what my wife and MC both told me were what turned her around and got her back
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## disbelief

8 are you referring to changes you made in yourself. Despite everyones reccomendations she set her mind to do this and she did/is. Hopefully she is not bluffing about agreeing to 6 months. She was pleasant tonight don't know it meant anything.
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## 8yearscheating

Yes I mean changes in myself. I had given her the love busters questionaire and while a lot of the responses were things that were very old and excuses for her having having an affair, there were some basic thing I could and did begin changing immediately. Ask her if she will fill one out. It's on the marriage builders website.


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## disbelief

That's a timing one here she is not open to any materials like that. She hasn't expressed any posotives about fixing this she just feels its not possible. I will look at it again thanks hope your sitch is going ok
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## 8yearscheating

You might be surprised. At the point I gave my wife the questionaire, I didn't she she would fill it out either but she did. Because she could do it on her own and be honest about me (to a degree - not about herself at that point) it gave her a chance to vent in private without talking to me. Try it, you have nothing to lose. No pressure, just give it to her and tell her it would help you to understand.


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## 8yearscheating

Thing are going very well with my wife and thanks for asking. If you look at my last thread you can get the details. I don't want to hijack your thread.


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## 8yearscheating

Here is a song to play for or in some way give to your wife. When we were separated (in house) I gave it to mine and told her it was how I felt. 3 Doors Down - Here by me

Here is a link - click the purple arrow to play and click the down arrow under lyrics to see all the lyrics

http://new.music.yahoo.com/3-doors-down/tracks/here-by-me--14346551

Also play Here Without You and send it

http://new.music.yahoo.com/3-doors-...ou--2040610;_ylt=AlhYAMfQyJ1DGXSVppxdy2kOxCUv


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## disbelief

She must still be in the fog although she may truly be done I don't know that I can buy any time. I asked if she would be in such a rush to file if it wasn't for the mortgage she wouldn't answer. I asked if she was truly that done......no answer .....then I haven't changed my mind. I told her I would refinance just wait on filing. She doesn't think its possible I ended with I just hoped there was a little emotion left in there for me she actually started crying. She says if feelings change we can stop the D. I hate this anybody have ideas?
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## 8yearscheating

Stick to it. No major decisions and you won't start D proceedings and if she does you won't reply or start anything until 6 months have passed.


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## turnera

Look great, smell great, fix all your Love Busters, do NOT talk relationship, stall the divorce.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Look great, smell great, fix all your Love Busters, do NOT talk relationship, stall the divorce.


 OK so I am at the point of giving up. I asked her to wait to file. She doesn't see why I said to let our heads settle today this made her mad it came. Up again because she was going to run errands and I asked if the courthouse was one of them. When she asked why wait I ended up with because I am asking and because I still love u she has been upset since.
So encourage me because I am discouraged .....stay the course even if she files the D papers?
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## 8yearscheating

Stay the course. My wife didn't stop talking that way until she was about 2 weeks prior to coming back. She is still in the mode that she has hurt you and isn't worth you having her back. She can file, you don't have to respond. If a court date is set, call the court and tell them your not ready and cannot set a date yet when you will be. GET AN ATTORNEY and check into abandonment, the laws in state regarding filing, how it can be stopped or delayed if she files, using a single attorney to keep the costs down, etc. etc. She might get upset at the delaying tactic but so what. The fact that she was still upset after you told her you loved her indicates to me she is still uncertain. A better question the next time she brings it up is what is the hurry. WHy spend money on processing a divorce? Take a few (keep it nebulous not a couple) months and try it on for size, give both of you a chance to get past the initial shock and thinking more clearly. See if you can work it out first. There is always time later to file. Then explain you still want to try before throwing in the towel. Ask if she would think about trying first. Then - get the questionaire and ask her to be blunt. Then try showing her you can change the things that bother her the most. But keep back! Don't push physical contact or discussion. Let HER start the conversations and listen ONLY. Don't try to solve everything. Paraphrase and repeat back to her what she says. Like, "did I understand you correctly, you don't feel it is worth trying." Shows her your listening and trying to understand instead of trying to fix or push your agenda. Also definitely do not pressure her to know more about the affair. That causes instant shut down and tells her the affair is more important to you than working things out.


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## disbelief

Thanks that's a good reminder I am doing most of that I especially have not brought up the A its instant shut down.
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## disbelief

Ok rt now I am mad the OM broke his own NC and called my W yesterday so just how should I approach that?
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## Eli-Zor

You know exactly what to do but you do not want to do it...

Your wife is back to square one, the OM will continue to phone your wife and you will sit on the side hoping..

Disbelief: you have asked before what to do, you have been give a path to a working processes yet you choose not to take to the advice. Your wife will for certainty leave you or delay until she and he are ready to. Either way you lose your marriage. 

I will say it one more time: - 

You phone the OM's wife and tell her, you phone OM and you cr?p him out from a dizzy height. 

You then stop hiding behind your sense of fear and kill the affair, you tell all your family , his and her parents, siblings children the whole toot. 

You are losing your marriage, your marriage can survive her anger, your marriage cannot survive the affair. So long as they contact each other the affair is ongoing. Two lovers talking to each other and plotting their next steps is not good for you, you are enabling it by doing nothing. 

Please take the advice and kill the affair.

BTW stop waiting for the OM's wife to help she is to scared to do anything.


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## 8yearscheating

In my situation I told my wife I could not tolerate her continuing to contact the OM. If that continued to be the case, get out NOW and take all her **** and don't come back. She backed off then.


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## Eli-Zor

The fact that neither the OM or your wife have written a nc letter or committed to full transparency speaks volumes..

Sadly the only fools here are you and the OM's wife...

Christmas is a good time for them to sit outside and hold hands while the families look on in disgust, it gets a little cold when they are shunned. Perhaps the OM's wife should kick him out as well. 

Start leading the actions and stop following hers.


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## disbelief

This would be so much easier for me to do if it were not for the pain it would cause my kids but this is within the time frame in which I planned on monitoring the sitch. I will review the exposure and nc advice.
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## Eli-Zor

It will be a lot worse for you and the children if they find out you knew all along and were pretending. 

Others have done the same and the wayward spouses have taken full advantage and made out all was well, even shared a Happy Christmas meal together, Happy for the WS's that is.


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## disbelief

Understood until I saw yesterdays call this morning I had not seen any contact she had been on time and home more . I am mad I also think no matter what she is done. I should confront her about the call first right? And contact om spouse also rt but not mention any possible exposure plans. 8 I thought you did not expose?
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## Eli-Zor

Why would you confront your wife? She will lie and you will be doing another love buster by telling the truth or getting upset, keep her on her toes by NOT telling her what you are doing. 

You call the OM first , go mad with calmness, make his life hell, then call his wife and let her know he broke NC, this time ensure she understands that she is not keeping her end of the bargain by stopping her WS. No NC letter, no transparency, no commitment to ending the affair, the OM will lie to her as well. 

Regardless what the OM says to you, you expose do NOT tell him that you are doing so, he knows he crossed the line so show him you mean business. He will will be a fantastic liar as all affair men are.

Do this and then follow up with the the exposure, both the OM and your wife are safe in the belief you will not expose their little secret. 

Do I recall you saying somewhere that someone told the OM off before, well let that same person know that OM has re-initiated the affair.

Remember 8's wife was not moving out your is making preparations to do so and I am sure that topic came up in their conversations, they are crafting a plan of sorts why else would they talk.


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## Initfortheduration

It's useless confronting her, unless its to tell her you know and won't listen to her BS. She could have told him "You will need to call me, so I can tell my husband that It wasn't my fault. This way we can still talk. The fact that she didn't tell you and you had to find out for yourself says it all.


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## disbelief

Eli 

OK I Contacted OM SPouse in between your posts. She doesn't listen to well. I have asked her to let me know if there was contact. It sounds like Thursday night my W emailed OM saying she was Mad at him and all done with me and this R. Told him she was moving on. 
OM told his spouse this AM that he did call my W because of the hateful email she sent. Supposedly he is remorseful over all this and since he was a friend he doesn't want to see my marriage end ( he should have thought of that before) so his end of the conversation he says was trying to convince her not to leave me. Telling her to think about it for the kids. ( it maybe nothing but now that I know when the phone call was her behavior was different, not giddy like back in the affair but docile)
Now i am given the impression that she thinks I cheated on her at some point due to something she said to OM ( I have not) So OM is still telling his spouse that he wants to fix the M he tells her when she emails or calls or texts. The problem appears to be my W so maybe I should just let her go live on her own without the kids and go dark for a while. She apparantly is done with this M, maybe she has a fantasy that the A will continue. Sorry some of this is venting. 

I am not dismissing any of your tactics I have raised OM spouses awareness. She is checking some things. This is the most concerned she has sounded in a while I reminded her to not believe anything and remain suspicious. She has been very complacent just believing him. He has expressed to her over and over that he wants to save the marriage. I know it could be a line of BS and I continue to remind her of that. I encouraged her again to get on MB site. 

Sadly I am at the point where It is much better in my house without her here that I am beginniing to doubt trying to save this. Although I still believe her to be fogged in. She said the other day she is just done. Done being married done trusting people, done asking for help. 
I have tried to explain my wifes personality my support friend saw her one day picking kids up and my W was essentially hiding behind a tree. That is why I end up balancing divorce and being able to have good parental relations for my kids or divorced and her not communicating yes alot of speculation. 

Should i ask her about the phone call now I was told about It. Of course 

Is there any truth to If you let it go and it comes back it really loves you. 

I truly believe in them being excellent liars and I am posting all this to share the info. Based on my wifes behavior I cannot see any action I take changing her course of action. Would you say that too is a possible outcome? That she has her mind set and that is it? I will work this sitch.


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## Eli-Zor

The OM is playing games NC is NC is NC.. he has a list of excuses up his sleeve. He had no right to call her and he knows this. Amazing he said he is trying to save your marriage when by involving himself in an affair with your wife he is causing the marriage to break down. 



> Should i ask her about the phone call now I was told about It. Of course


 No it does not get you anywhere




> Would you say that too is a possible outcome? That she has her mind set and that is it? I will work this sitch.



Nothing will change until she realizes what she is missing.She will leave and you will Plan A her for a while longer, you obtain a legal separation and ensure she pays half the mortgage and gives you child care, With little or no money life for her becomes difficult. There will be a time when you Plan B her that time is not here yet.



> Now i am given the impression that she thinks I cheated on her at some point due to something she said to OM


She is still leaving you, she will gaslight you, I have said this before and you hiding away. The above is the start of her strategy to blame you, best you do something now.. 

Tell your family , hers, his and the kids - get this over with so you can focus on the Plan A and a prepare for a probable Plan B.

You telling the truth will not stop or make her leave , she is doing this anyway, she is going.

As for the OM , nasty manipulative little man. Covering his ass, it is time you set fire to it.

Always remember my friend, expect the worst on everything, but fight for your marriage and your wifes love, actions speak loudly.


Your Plan A must be good, you have to top up your wifes love bank , if you can get the OM out of the picture then he is not filling her lovebank, his actions especially if he sends her an NC letter will deplete it even further. 

Your behavior must start meeting her emotional needs. If she leaves home her financial needs must not be met and it looks like that is what she is fighting to secure, so oppose it by action, legal is necessary .


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## disbelief

OK, what a fun Saturday, The OM Spouse found my W's email and sent her a letter addressing the A and no contact. Sent via email so she got it right away on her phone. I believe the content was on par with Marriage Builders No contact letter. She cc'd me. 
My w's reaction when she got home. w: can we talk me: do we need to w: yes me: ok W: I am done i want a divorce you are dealing with me I am hearing stories and dealing with OM, now OM Spouse and i cant take it I am going to have a break down. I am done I don't want to talk. I don't want to see anyone. I will get through xmass and I am done. me: calmly reminded her i still love her the kids do we want her in the house. On the stories I said what are you hearing stories about me I have been faithful to you all theses years and commited i love you and still do. Will you do one thing before you file just give it some time for our heads to settle. W: soft spoken ok fine. a little more talk she says she cannot stay here tonight. She is a wreck. Says she is going to find somplace to stay where nobody will know where she is.
So she left here and OM Spouse tells me she emailed him to ask if he got in trouble. OM spouse got the email responded to her via text asking her to stop and wanted her to know that OM told OM Spouse about the email and phone call and that OM spous says she has had enough. We are rediscussing OM doing a NC letter I mentioned restraining order. And we both agree that his response to that will tell us where we stand. OM Spouse knows she cannot force him.


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## Eli-Zor

Good work, this is some of the best news to date and you handled it well. 

Keep up the pressure, she is feeling the pain but at this stage it is not enough. The consequences have to be felt , she is not showing remorse or acknowledging what she has done is wrong. 

Your wife is now worried that the OM will repeat the conversation they had , I suspect there was a lot said they do not want to be know. 

If the OM does not send the NC letter tonight you have to take the next step ASAP with or without the OM's wife. he is in this up to his neck and is trying to weasel out of it.

One of them either your wife or the OM must throw the other under the bus and admit all, if they break ranks then you will be able to start the journey to recovery both marriages.

The NC letter may force them to go underground so a restraining order on your wife is a very good option if you can get this. 

Keep the pressure on the OM's wife, she must stop being silly, her husband is doing the standard affair stuff, deny, lie, deceive.

Do get your list for exposure ready and what you will say to who. Always be prepared, even if your wife stays with the NC in place people will ask so you are going to have to tell them , before your wife gaslights you. 

Keep the following milestones in mind for your wife and the OM to adhere to :--

Permanent No Contact

Full transparency , access to everything. 

Full commitment to rebuild the marriage(s)


Hang in there and be strong.


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## disbelief

OM has told his spouse all about the A and whatever contact. My W is clammed up in saran wrap


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## disbelief

Eli-Zor said:


> Good work, this is some of the best news to date and you handled it well.
> 
> 
> The NC letter may force them to go underground so a restraining order on your wife is a very good option if you can get this.
> *Advised OM Spouse of this*
> 
> Keep the pressure on the OM's wife, she must stop being silly, her husband is doing the standard affair stuff, deny, lie, deceive.
> *I will be more persistent.*
> Keep the following milestones in mind for your wife and the OM to adhere to :--
> 
> Permanent No Contact
> 
> Full transparency , access to everything.
> 
> Full commitment to rebuild the marriage(s)
> 
> *OM Spouse included this in her NC. OM says he has been committed to this. Sadly for me my W seems to be holding on.*


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## Eli-Zor

If the OM's wife follows the MB process exposure will occur. The two WS will be in for a tough time if they are playing games and are not honest. 

Do not give to much info to the OM's wife she may try back out and leave you dealing with this on your own this is a joint effort. Once on the MB site she will be given the same advice as you. 

Past experience tells me that woman take a while longer to extract their feelings from an affair.. so the withdraw your wife is going though may be normal.

Any comments from the ladies on the forum on this . ?


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## disbelief

I think maybe too OM spouse was in some denial and the additional info I gave today pushed her far enough to acr. OM and OM spouse are going to xmass party and they went to a show last sunday. MY will has not been in the same car with me in almost a month. OM spouse said restraining order is extreme.
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## F-102

She finally asked for the D? ALL RIGHT!
She desperately tried to make you ask for the D first and make you the bad guy.
It didn't work. 
So she tried one last ditch attempt and tried to accuse YOU of cheating.
It didn't work.
Now she knows that you aren't going to cave, that you're made of sterner stuff and that her little experiment to find true happiness is collapsing before her eyes, and that she is going to have to go through with her divorce plans after all.
And, most of all, she now knows that there may be no pot of gold (the OM) at the end of the rainbow.

Well played, old boy!


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## disbelief

Yes she actually straight out said it. She got the letter from OM spouse and it hit her in the heart. All the people affected are very close. She spouted out she wanted a D. And after she was done her emotional tirade I calmly asked her to wait to file for our heads to settle and she soft spokenly and calmly agreed.
She could not handle staying at home last night. So as she was leaving I calmly said I hope u r going someplace safe (she wont tell me phone. Record does) You have my number if u need me. And lastly just before she left I said you may not want to hear this rt now but I still love you. Her response was thank you. 

I am having more thoughts of how long and how hard do I try because I am beginning to see why people just get the D.

Thanks for the well played F 102 still doesn't feel so great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Use your spare time to prepare for Plan B and check the requirements for a legal separation.

If she steps out the house it is for you to make it as financially unrewarding to her as possible. I would go as far as to say come January if she is not on board with marriage recovery then you start 50 - 50 on all bills including the mortgage. 

In the interim be the Plan A man, fill her emotional needs.

It is an uphill battle and you will feel down, this will get better for you regardless of the outcome.

Make sure you are looking after your health as well..

Bes strong and best wishes..


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## disbelief

Thanks making it financially hard will have to be legal she can work extra and has been to earn extra she can easily do that in her job. She is messed up rt now but she will not let the bills get messed up for the marital home because that is the kids universe. 
And yes I am watching my health mental emotional physical treating as needed found a divorcecares group in case that's the final result. 
One of the things I left out is that yesterday she actually put the blame of this whole situation on herself called herself the troublemaker and said it can't be fixed because she could never face all those people close to this situation. Saying it would be better if she was out of the picture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

> One of the things I left out is that yesterday she actually put the blame of this whole situation on herself called herself the troublemaker and said it can't be fixed because she could never face all those people close to this situation. Saying it would be better if she was out of the picture.


Fog talk, make sure she knows this and more importantly let her know you love her and will provide her with support. Emphasize you have forgiven her and so will everyone else.

In part she is right because you can *never ever* have contact between her and the OM again..


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## disbelief

True and that was some of the wording in the letter from OM spouse. Thanks by the way not the best morning.
on the forgiven aspect though I am not sure I can say that it would be like giving her a get out of jail free card I know I can fully forgive her but I need to see some apology and remorse first. She is still self containing most everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

All you can do at present is smile, be strong, when your wife comes home continue with Plan A. Plan A helps prepare you for both the good and the bad so do carry on with it.


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## disbelief

I suppose I should investigat via OM Spouse a total of 4 text today started by OM. I feel like just throwing in the towel. As far as I know my W is totally pissed at him but I wish I could read the txt. I think I will go geg a personal loan for legal. Suggest away. Knots in my gut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Should I contact OM with a simple why are you contacting my wife again. Since you expressed you even wanted my family to survive?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Do both - the OM and OMW need to know as well. It can't hurt at this point. Your wife thinks she has a chance with the jerk and the more he breaks NC the worse it gets for you. NC is there for a purpose. Lets enforce it where we can.


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Should I contact OM with a simple why are you contacting my wife again. Since you expressed you even wanted my family to survive?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think it’s pointless trying to be rational and logical with these people.

Simple “acceptance” can be a difficult place to get to but once you are there it all becomes a lot clearer and easier to deal with. What do I mean? Just accept the people for who they are. You know them by how much they deceive, lie and blame. It’s in their core nature, character. They don’t change.

I am not at all surprised when you say your home “feels” better without your wife in it. Believe me it gets better all the time, at least that’s my experience.

Bob


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## disbelief

Maybe I should shock her and give her signed D papers. Who knows what 4 txt were about. I guess the posotive is my W did not send first. Dunno getting fed up.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> Maybe I should shock her and give her signed D papers. Who knows what 4 txt were about. I guess the posotive is my W did not send first. Dunno getting fed up.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be strong for yourself and the kids. It's hard I know especially when the other half of your heart is with an alien right now. 

I'd still let the OMW know about it. If the OM was serious about staying and trying to rebuild his M then he would knock this crap off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I will let her know prob tom PM when OM At work or she will go off on him rt away. She may know she is suppossed to let me know but fails to.

My mind will be a little more free with doing after we get through xmas for the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Maybe I should shock her and give her signed D papers. Who knows what 4 txt were about. I guess the posotive is my W did not send first. Dunno getting fed up.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It was enough when I found out my wife had deceived me. But I could take that, I think we all make mistakes as we go through life. What I couldn’t handle was all the lies, denials and blaming that followed. I even tried to get through that lot as well.

But she wouldn’t “come clean” no matter what I did. So I just accepted that’s how she handles these things in her life.

It’s not so much the affair or whatever or even the lies and deceits that go along with it. It’s all the stuff that comes after it. I knew I could never trust my wife again and I’m not one to chose to live my life with a person I can’t trust.

Once I’d accepted all that my inner happiness and contentment got a whole lot better. There was some grieving to do after 4 decades together. I was just about through it after seven months.

Bob


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## disbelief

Mine came clean one nigh when I wouldn't let go of what is going on with you and she blurted it out. But as I know her and I see it ringing true now her low self esteem, lack of true self confidence and inability to express herself is turning all the negatives in and she will not open up. I have been paying attention to all her responses body language and lack of response. Funny what they can reveal but I still don't think I can do this if she doesn't open up. I guess maybe I will give it until she files the papers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Disbelief,
Here’s something for you. Your wife is totally incapable of understanding that you will forgive her this “escapade”, or whatever’s best to call it, in your lives. You could tell her “I’ll forever forgive you and will never under any circumstances bring the subject up”. But she wont be able to comprehend it and if she could she would think you totally incapable of forgiveness.

What your wife will comprehend and understand is if you say “I will never ever forgive you for your escapade and I will always remind you of it”.

Your “core values” in these things are exceedingly different, in fact they are opposite. That’s part of the reason why you are finding “comprehension” of what’s going on so very difficult. It’s more or less a “Clash of basic, core philosophies of life” and why you are so mixed up.

Bob


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## disbelief

I think you just nailed it on the head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Mine came clean one nigh when I wouldn't let go of what is going on with you and she blurted it out. But as I know her and I see it ringing true now her low self esteem, lack of true self confidence and inability to express herself is turning all the negatives in and she will not open up. I have been paying attention to all her responses body language and lack of response. Funny what they can reveal but I still don't think I can do this if she doesn't open up. I guess maybe I will give it until she files the papers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That's the lexicon of a codependent. If you decide to stay on that path it’s one very long journey with very little change at the end, if any. I know.

It’s a very different life being an independent. I’m hoping for an interdependent relationship next time. If I can’t get it I don’t have another romantic relationship.

Bob


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> I think you just nailed it on the head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You really want to find out the differences in your core values and beliefs?

You become absolutely intolerant of your wife’s abusive behaviour. Take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html.

Your wife is abusing your very good nature. You need N.U.T.s. to protect yourself from that abuse.

Bob


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## disbelief

Yes I alway thought of us as a team that obviously left her at some point. Would be nice to recover reconcile rebuild better as some say they have especially with the kids four 11and under. She leaves the future open for us but I can't see any moving forward without seperation. And proof that they are not trying to rekindle the A.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

AFEH said:


> You really want to find out the differences in your core values and beliefs?
> 
> You become absolutely intolerant of your wife’s abusive behaviour. Take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html.
> 
> Your wife is abusing your very good nature. You need N.U.T.s. to protect yourself from that abuse.
> 
> Bob


I will look at that tonight. Part of my tolerance is to get through the holidays. thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> I will look at that tonight. Part of my tolerance is to get through the holidays. thanks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You're welcome.

You know what Disbelief? We can spend so much time enmeshed in this stuff and trying to play catch-up, chasing our tail etc. that we forget to ask ourselves some really good questions.

Here’s one for you.

Based on your wife’s behaviour, does she truly deserve all the good things in you?

Bob


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## disbelief

That's a week to the day somebody giving me that side of the coin. Maybe she deserves to be without me for a while or forever I don't know I do believe we determine our own path but at the same time sometimes I believe some parts of life are predetermined. I have some great kids because we married. Time will tell I suppose.

I don't know if she deserves me rt now before all this never a thing to cause any doubt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So as I take care of my house I wonder is it worth fighting some more. Will I know 100% beyond all doubt one day when I wake up that I am done and I tried. Knowing some dynamic contributed to the A but at the same time she said that the A was not at all my fault. Just a venting thought I guess I will get through xmas and see if I get D papers as a gift.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Totally agree. I think the length we take these things to, how much we try, what we try, how long we try etc. is different for everyone of us. You’re giving it one heck of a good shot.

And I think as you said it is so important to not just feel but to know we gave it everything we had before giving up. It’s like walking that last mile. It’s just that we don’t know what that last mile is until we’re totally exhausted and literally can’t go any further.

I don’t believe in that “fog”. I just don’t believe in it. I think the disloyal spouse is very clear in their own mind exactly what they want to do. It’s like they’re truly on a mission, one they can’t be turned from. For them they are being totally objective and rational. Just because their values and beliefs are very different to the loyal spouse, that doesn’t mean they are in a “fog”. If it is a fog, then the loyal spouse is also in a fog.

Sometimes you just got to let them go and see if the grass truly is greener. You got to let them taste it otherwise they’ll never be satisfied. That’s what the 180 is all about at Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce.

What you’re doing so obviously isn’t working. In fact it’s having the opposite effect to what you want. I did the 180 with my wife in that I totally blanked her except for divorce discussions. Nearly 12 months later she’s discovered just how much the green field she envisioned is truly burnt out and impossible to grow anything in. She’s having an exceptionally hard and stressful time. And now she’s discussing her “conditions” about getting back with me. She hasn’t got a hope after what she put me through. I’m much better off without her.

But I don’t have kiddies like you do and I know that makes one heck of a lot of difference in the equation of life.

Bob


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## disbelief

The way in which I believe the fog is based in irrational statements by my W like saying the kids will not miss her. I too believe mine to be. On her mission but I have seen confusion in her eyes. The kids are a huge factor I don't know. We'll see in time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

It's called shock and the last series of posts have suggested you move on. I don't agree because the time has been too short and your WS is not yet clear of the grieving the loss of the OM. I do think it best to prepare for the worst and then hope for the best. Quit bringing up the D and focus on 3-6 months before ANY hard decisions about moving out or D occurs. DO not change your position because it makes her think your unsure. Get your mind off the D and focus on what you want for the future. In terms of forgiving, you can tell her you can forgive her and get past the A, it will be hard work and it will take time, but you can move past it to a stronger and better relationship - this will give her some hope. Tell her will take time and that the first step is being completely honest with each and NC. She needs to come to you with her feelings and needs, not the OM if it is ever going to have a chance to work. By doing this you will be telling her a concrete direction to move away from the despair she is feeling not understanding why you still want her and not knowing how to start moving in the right direction. Tell her you have hope but her behaviour needs to change before it all evaporates and you let her have what SHE wants. There is a chance, the next step is hers.

I know how really hard it is to be where you right now. You gain some hope only to have her behaviour blow it up. Keep holding onto that hope. ALSO do the legal investigative work. If the discussion turns to D again, tell her you have investigated and factually, here is where it will go. Same thing with moving out, factually this is what you will require if she does - signed agreements to pay 1/2 of all mortgage, groceries, utilities, insurance, home up keep, kids medical and other expenses, etc., WHile you may not think it will put a fianancial crimp in her style, it will dispell the myth she probably holding that there will a free single life with all kinds of money to do whatever she wants. If she fights this, thats when you pull the abandonment card. Your goal should be to make this realistic, not to be nice and accomodating or enabling.

Keep your head up. It's hard I truly know.


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## disbelief

Thanks again 8 she was definitely angry Saturday and I think that Is alot of what she said. However she is also serious to the point about the D. It is a matter of when she files or if she settles down she is still very angry I think at the whole situation of course I am speculating.
Yesterday I was in a bad place and could not clear my mind. She said she wasn't coming home until tomorrow, well she's here. We talked a little this morning. She could have gone to the courthouse this morning there is one 5 minutes from her work. Not the one she would want to use but if she were that determined she could have driven to the other as well.
She is resentful about M things angry about things she never clearly expressed all these years an excuse for the A no. But when she starts i let her go it needs to come out Divorced or married. 
As Eli suggested I am trying to Plan A it. i do think the A is over I keep my suspicions. i confronted her with the ....What is your plan to move out and have him move in with you she denies it is that, yes she could be lying. She also says she has said all she has to say which has been very little. 
I expressed that I can forgive and all these things can be worked through she feels we have spent a ton of time working these issues in reality we have not. They were never confronted over the years by her and only recently maybe 6 hours of talk, if thats hard work I have been mistaken all my life about what hard work is.
I said if you feel no love for me fine tell me. If you look at our wedding picture and feel nothing thats one thing if you look at it and there is still something well................. conversation end I walked away.
We talked a little later about xmass and vacation and schedules. I gave her a hug she didn't fight it at all. When i walked out of the room I reminded her i still loved her.

Is this all filling the love bank and a good approach?

And now I turn the page to make some preparations for worst case scenario.


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## Eli-Zor

Carry on as you are. There must be no talk of divorce or separation keep going with Plan As 8 has said if you are forced to the point of seperation you make sure the finances are tight and you go into Plan B, there must be no spare money for her to play. For Christmas do note that neither your wife of the OM are to have any contact, not even Christmas gifts or cards, NC means NC.

Did you find out why the texting occurred and the content thereof. 

I know the OM's wife is supposed to keep him under control, however every time there is contact your wife is back to the beginning, you then bollock that man and do not hold back, you pull every trick out you can to ensure he understands what no contact means. Be in his face if you have to. The OM is an active engager in holding your wife's recovery into the marriage back


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## disbelief

I did not yet tonight I investigate futher. Where is a good letter format for me to send OM. MB? It will go by email and snail mail. I suppose there is nothing to loose at this point she has the papers to file.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Or should I just call him because he txt again. So mad again 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Call his wife now

As they are still in contact are you prepared to accept that they are following a plan?

The only way this is going to break is you expose, if you are not prepared to do this then stop spying, you are wasting your time.


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## Eli-Zor

I am going to be hard on you, stop following and start leading, do not let the OM or his wife know what you are going to do.

I am asking you to agree to expose and burst their bubble, both marriages are damaged and will never heal while they are in contact. Regardless of the exposure they will still carry on at least now all will know what they are doing. 

You have said 


> I suppose there is nothing to loose at this point she has the papers to file


So why are you not fighting for your marriage , break the affair now, shine a torch on it ..now....

At the minimum phone his parents and let them know what he is doing, call her parents and siblings and let them know.

Let me explain why you need to do this:

The exposure is to tell all and sundry of the affair, some will support you some will not. Key here is they will be aware that everyone knows the truth and the affair is no longer secret.

The affair will continue if the parties contact each other and will run its course no matter what you try. 

At a point either before or just after the first week of January your wife leaves home, as she is not prepared to stop the affair you are not prepared she run it from your family home. 

The OM's wife must be warned as her inactivity in stopping this affair is encouraging the processes and there is a likelihood her husband will be able to visit your now separated wife at his leisure. 

Paint the process for her as her marriage is close to failing as well.


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## turnera

You are moving WAY too fast, disbelief. You should not be making ANY decisions about divorce for at least a month; there's no rush. 

And you say you can't deal with it, yet you say you want to stay married, so I'll ask you: Is your marriage worth suffering for a few weeks as you stay strong and wait for her to come around? I've seen many many people tough it out for months and months. I would think you could handle a few more weeks before you throw in the towel.

Listen to Eli-Zor; tell your wife you know they are still texting and you want it to stop. If she refuses to stop, then expose to her family and friends, and tell OMW right now, no matter what.


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## disbelief

I even wonder if telling the parents would matter. There's been so many affairs in those families. I think all the siblings have and only2 parents haven't and 2 divorces from one parent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Then expand the exposure - include family, friends and neighbours

Do the same for the OM

If she has facebook include all the friends therein and if you have a concern that some there may not help include her co-workers 

If he has facebook do the same to all his friends 

Get the message out

Why do you not want to expose? You have been asked from day one to do this and you have avoided this consistently. Do you have a valid working plan that you are not sharing with us.

What you can't ask us to do is to provide you with support when you do not want to take the steps recommended and we are in an endless loop asking you to complete the first step. .


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## AFEH

Disbelief, if one of the reasons your wife wont/can’t get back to you because she perceives she’s gone too far with some people you both know then “outing” her is going to make that 1,000 times worse.

If she does step back into the marriage how on earth can she possibly do that with her dignity still in place. It is my opinion that this “outing” seriously aggravates an already bad situation. All you need for proof of this is some of the threads here. One guy “outed” his wife at work and it ended up with his wife and OM mocking him … in the workplace and his colleagues seemed to have joined in that mocking. And he used to work there. He’s no chance with his wife now.


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## disbelief

Turnera
deep inside I still want to fight. If I get papers served to me I will delay. Affaircare said in my old threas that if the A was over exposing was just as bad. Do a few text equal continued A. Divorce busting says don't expose so? My W brings up D I avoid the subject. I will hold out here on this forum I vent my weakening and emotional aspect of this. And I thank you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

AFEH said:


> Disbelief, if one of the reasons your wife wont/can’t get back to you because she perceives she’s gone too far with some people you both know then “outing” her is going to make that 1,000 times worse.
> 
> If she does step back into the marriage how on earth can she possibly do that with her dignity still in place. It is my opinion that this “outing” seriously aggravates an already bad situation. All you need for proof of this is some of the threads here. One guy “outed” his wife at work and it ended up with his wife and OM mocking him … in the workplace and his colleagues seemed to have joined in that mocking. And he used to work there. He’s no chance with his wife now.


That's near my point my W fears interacting with my parents already and they don't know. My friend who knows about it and my W knows she knows saw her hiding behind a tree at a common kid pickup. And as I just posted Db Says don't so that's where I struggle. She doesn't face book. The social network is my friends her step parent and sister know which leaves her parents and mine we r not close with many others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Just tell her you know they're still texting and tell her she can either keep texting him - in another home - or she can stop texting him and stay with you. And let OMW know today.


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> That's near my point my W fears interacting with my parents already and they don't know. My friend who knows about it and my W knows she knows saw her hiding behind a tree at a common kid pickup. And as I just posted Db Says don't so that's where I struggle. She doesn't face book. The social network is my friends her step parent and sister know which leaves her parents and mine we r not close with many others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Divorce Busters has a lot of success stories. Me? I look for good track records in these things and that's where I find them, at DB.


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## rome2012

AFEH said:


> I think the disloyal spouse is very clear in their own mind exactly what they want to do. It’s like they’re truly on a mission, one they can’t be turned from. For them they are being totally objective and rational. Just because their values and beliefs are very different to the loyal spouse, that doesn’t mean they are in a “fog”.


I absolutely agree with you, Bob !!!!

It's not confirmed that my husband is having an affair (although I think he does have an EA rather than a PA)......but he knows exactly what he is doing and what he wants.....he wants out (for her ???) and that's why nothing I'm doing (making all the changes to my life) does do anything for him.....he's not changing his mind about us......

Sucks, but it's true......


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## disbelief

I think I see the fog both ways. I do not deny to my WW that her emotions are real and she has logical thoughts mixed in with a bunch that I consider the fog...... the ones that contradict her as the person I have known. All these years and strange ones like believing the children will not miss her. Yes in the end she will make her own final decision I am trying to do right by my marriage kids my heart and what my gut says. I guess when she files those papers I know for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Keep your head, bro. So far, you have been the model of patience and temperance. That's sorta what I meant with the "well played" comment.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Keep your head, bro. So far, you have been the model of patience and temperance. That's sorta what I meant with the "well played" comment.



Thanks, still hanging in. The W's responses are like a yo yo. Neg Pos Neg Pos. It was getting slick around here tonight I mentioned it and got the "well maybe I'll slide into a tree" 

Anyway on the text messages the 1 from today and ones from yesterday. OM told his spouse about it. He told her he texted my W because of the letter OM Spouse sent. OM told his spouse that my W said she hated him now. My W did not respond to todays unless she did by email.

So could it still be lies absolutely. But the OM keeps committing to his spouse that he wants to recover and doing alot of the rebuilding things. He is also the impatient type who feels it should be fixed already.

Since OM was a good friend yeah....... Was. OM Spouse says he tells her he feels very guilty and has been trying to tell my W to stay with my Marriage. What a pal, he could've told me when she was complaining at the very beginning of the EA part. Then we wouldn't be here.

My W's mood tonight issed: and life goes on. 

I I will survive!!


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## disbelief

I am completly amazed at the mood changes my W has. From hateful last night to nice and pleasant this morning. Quite shocked she actually called to let me know what she was doing on her way home from work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

disbelief said:


> I am completly amazed at the mood changes my W has. From hateful last night to nice and pleasant this morning. Quite shocked she actually called to let me know what she was doing on her way home from work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is how they are one day nice next day unpleasant . 

Be strong and stay focused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Just be there and be her friend at this moment in time. Be a friend that will listen and be non-judgmental. She's still conflicted and mad - probably more at her own actions than anything else. This will take time for her to get over. 

Take care of yourself and the kids to the best of your ability. 

Have you given any thought as to what emotional need of hers that she thought you were not meeting which sent her to the OM? If not not then think it through and try to work on meeting that need if you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Powerbane,
Yes she said I stopped talking realistically we both did it became all about the kids then those 2 decided to complain about their M's together and that's what happened.
I have asked the question what would it take to keep us together she says there is nothing. I believ she is just acting her niceness. She said she is also considering a travel job which I believe was probing me for seeing what I thought of her being gone for months at a time. She gets defensive now when I tell her it would be up to her. But one of her complaints was that she felt I had to control all decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Very common complaint for women. How can you make other changes to put her in charge of things? Ask her to pick out the Christmas tree this year? Ask her to plan New Year's Eve?


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## disbelief

I can leave christmas day completly up to her she's working new years eve and day. I just really can't see her not filing for D at this point. I know there is court time and delays after that and xmas is complex this year due to the A. Would it even be a good idea for a surprise evening out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well roller coaster, saw online that W and OM talked for about 40 min. My filters turned off I went right up and confronted her we r both home. She said I can be happy her starting to cry that OM never wants to speak to her again so on and so forth. But her feelings were real she wont let anyone take that from her she brought up the marriage stuff again that bothered her. Did not mention divorce or the house she wants to buy but she's mentioned that before and doesn't like to repeat. She doesn't understand how I think things could be fixed or better. All the negatives. She feels she has completly lost her soulmate and that me and the OM spouse are going to gloat over this as a victory and having won control. She says at least I have won half the battle meaning she is still leaving and I let her know I still believe in recovery. And that's the short version. Now What?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rome2012

disbelief said:


> Well roller coaster, saw online that W and OM talked for about 40 min. My filters turned off I went right up and confronted her we r both home. She said I can be happy her starting to cry that OM never wants to speak to her again so on and so forth. But her feelings were real she wont let anyone take that from her she brought up the marriage stuff again that bothered her. Did not mention divorce or the house she wants to buy but she's mentioned that before and doesn't like to repeat. She doesn't understand how I think things could be fixed or better. All the negatives. She feels she has completly lost her soulmate and that me and the OM spouse are going to gloat over this as a victory and having won control. She says at least I have won half the battle meaning she is still leaving and I let her know I still believe in recovery. And that's the short version. Now What?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know it might not look like it to you but I think it's a good thing !!!!!

Stick to your plan I'd say....it seems to be working out.....

I wish I would be anywhere close to your position....but unfortunately I have no way of exposing a possible affair (an EA which I believe he has) and so I won't be able to succeed.....

But you have all the chances now....if OM really sticks with the NC !!!!!!!


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## disbelief

This is like the third time in 2 months they're done talking so???? She sticks to leaving she was just curled up semi crying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Will a disloyal continue to test and see if the betrayed is going to remain committed and loyal even when the continue to say they want out of the marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

disbelief: Put your thinking cap on and work out how to make the OM's life extremely uncomfortable. The OM's wife is not capable of doing this. 

Call his parents or somebody to put him under pressure.

If they were online to day they are working I assume??

If so call his company HR department and advise them he is conducting an affair with your wife on company time.

Every time he contacts her you are back to the full affair, she hates you because she longs for him, the more he contacts her the more he is rubbing your face in it and the more she longs for him.

There is no way those conversation are platonic and he is helping your marriage. Has he sent her a NC letter copied you in. This single action will help immensely. 

Put on you big boys boots and sort him out. Take proactive action to get him out of the way, have him fired from his job if necessary, the pain he must go though must outweigh the pleasure he gets from talking to your wife. 

His wife is not willing to do enough to stop him, Is she on the MB site or is she making excuses. Give her a forecast both your families will be destroyed by January?

In the interim keep Plan A running it will get through to her...

Stay strong every day she stays is a day gained for you.Some days you step back others days you will make many steps forward, its the long distance that will count


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## disbelief

He called her to again officially cut her off and dump her again she says. I saw the phone call online problem is his family wont care. OM spouse knows them better and agrees. They would prob support him.
They both work nights different jobs I have no proof of anything at work. So that's my real problem no real proof. I am not denying your tactics but if someone says prove it all I can say is well rt here they talked on the phone?????

She maintains she is done with this M.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

If that is what is said let him put it in writing in an NC letter a sample can be found on the affairecare site.

Nothing is better than words from himself that you can retain a copy of should he be lying.


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## disbelief

So do I contact him and confront on that because OM spouse says he wont do a letter my spouse wrote him a letter he wouldn't read it.
should I finally send him anything. Im kinda numb rt now too. Well very.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

So am I reading this right your wife has written a no contact letter to him ?


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## Eli-Zor

The OM is a drug to her, even if she wants to end the affair she is powerless to stop until no contact has been in place for some time. 

I think the OM is playing with you and your wife, he know exactly what he is doing


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## disbelief

I wish that's where her head was she is still "in love" with him. No some time ago she wrote a letter content unknown OM spouse said he tossed it would not read it because he doesn't believe in letters in this kind of situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

He has to stop contacting her, YOU pull out all the stops to ensure this is enforced. He does not want to send an NC letter because he knows that he is then admitting the affair. 

So what are you going to do?

It appears that both you and the OM's wife have a problem and that unless you take a hard line on the communication you are both being made fools of, there are no consequences for the OM.


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## disbelief

First I am wishing I had some support standing nxt to me it feels pointless because she is determined to leave. 
Due to the sensitivity of the people I will start by contacting OM spouse. Also have my kids so I can only get so much done now. 

Is there a nc letter format from me to him saying pls finally knock it off.

They both have admitted the affair to us spouses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

I understand you are in pain and hurting and everything feels overwhelming. You are doing well considering the circumstances. 

You are running Plan A keep going, your wife has not left.



The sample letters are in the link below..

Sample No Contact Letters


If the NC is maintained then there is some hope, she may still leave but there is a process for that as well, so stay strong.

Have you thought of involving your parents even if it is to help look after the children


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## disbelief

If I had better proof on everything I would jump faster that has been part of my restraint it turning into he said she said. In the long run I care more for my kids mmy W is burning out my love for her.

So plan A it no matter how much she says she doesn't love me is going to D and is going to move out?

Should I send the OM a NC from me although I think that would have the opposit effect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

disbelief: I suspect you are mentally exhausted , take a break for a while until you feel better.


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## disbelief

Good call
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Stuck with your plan A. Yes, there will be blood and I know it sounds like cold comfort, but you can come out of this with a clear conscience, which, incidentally, your W is desperately trying to salvage (that crack about how you and the OM's W will both turn this into a victory so that you can gloat says to me that she is still trying to "bad guy" you).

I'm sure someone may have broached the subject, and if they did, I must have missed it, but is it possible that she is manic-depressive/BPD? Her "Wicked Witch of The West/Glinda the Good" displays suggest it.


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## disbelief

I wish her IC would pick up on her depression she had postpartum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Sorry ELi - I don't agree. Outing the affair leaves his wife even more embarassed and could result in her hating disbelief for making her more miserable than she already is. My suggestion would be to let things cool down and give her time to develop some hate for the OM cutting her off and monitor the contact. I think it is over with the OM. I would be the man she wants - make yourself the better choice. The control thing is part of not feeling in control of herself - my wife is finally begining to realize that her failure to confront me when we got into an argument was not me trying to control her, it her was her lack of being able to stay in the argument and maintain her own control. She would run from the issues and blame me. She would then go to the OM and commiserate on both of their marital problems. She now realizes she has work issues with me and me alone. If you out her, I think it lead to the opposite effect you want. She will be pissed again at you for taking control she doesn't want you have - at least right now. Tell her you know she is grieving and you hate to see her in pain, even if it was the OM. Then tell her you want to work on your issues and help her move on to happier time and future. YOU want to be the better choice and have clearly heard the issues the she has spelled out and want to work on them with her. Your arms are still open and waiting for her to let you hold her and be her rock. I also wouldn't push the NC right now, wait until she is ready to work on the marriage and is showing some remorse. She has to do it and has to want to do it, which she isn't there yet.

I know it's hard disbelief. Just stay the course and quit pushing so fix everything right now. Give time a chance to work. I think she is moving in the right direction - even if it is painfully slow.

By the way, both IC and MC have told me it was cool head and steady actions that brought my wife back. Not over reactions and high pressure which was really hard for me to stop myself from doing. They were both really impressed with how I handled myself - a huge compliment. Consider that disbelief, next time you want to push the conversation to a conclusion or fix it once and for all. HOLD ON - you are doing very well.


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## disbelief

On the arguing I think you just described my W. She too was telling OM and not fully telling me what was wrong. Sometimes I swear she had conversations with me in her head.
Alot of what u are saying to tell her has been mentioned she doesn't want to hear anything rt now.
I will not push the only thing I pushed today was confronting on the phone call and I am glad I did because she finally talked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rome2012

disbelief said:


> Is there a nc letter format from me to him saying pls finally knock it off.


You need to tell him to not contact your wife ]*period* .....

If she contacts him and he replies back "Don't contact me" then he is breaking the NC rule himself....

Make him understand that if she contacts him again for him to just *shut up and be still* and eventually she will stop bugging him.....

He's no damn Kindergartner to not understand this cycle....ouch....stop it.....ouch.....stop it.....ouch....stop it.....

No contact means *NO CONTACT *whatsoever.....

You can do it.....:smthumbup:


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## disbelief

I actually am debating how to approach that one because I think if I contact him it will backfire and he will contact her just out of spite. Sadly he WAS my friend. So I know him. OM spouse may have input but lost faith there too. And I don't think he does get it. I have once about a month and a half ago asked him to not contact. It was via txt and he came back with a comment about being controlling?????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

This is why exposure is the better answer. Make sure everyone important know what's going on, so it's no longer fun and exciting to carry on the affair; it's now embarrassing.


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## turnera

Seriously? You think contacting HIM will make something change?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Seriously? You think contacting HIM will make something change?


I don't know what I think anymore. As I said in an earlier post his family wouldn't care hers. Who knows and I have no real proof.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then all you can do is tell them what you do know, and move on with your life. Let her notice.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> This is why exposure is the better answer. Make sure everyone important know what's going on, so it's no longer fun and exciting to carry on the affair; it's now embarrassing.


Tunera, seems to me that both you and Eli-Zor are "personally embittered" on this exposure thing.

Have you, or Eli-Zor, had a DS that you exposed? Are you speaking from personal experience?

The two of you push it so much and so strongly that surely the only motivation for that can be your personal experience. Nobody can so strongly believe in something in the way you two do unless it’s through personal, first hand experience.

You are both totally blind to any other way. You don’t even “consider” another way.

On the MB website there was talk of the INFIDEL ADULTERESS. Is that what this is all about?


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## disbelief

How many have exposed just to have the A continue anyway? If the disloyals in the A do not want to end it then wont they deal with the exposure find comfort in each other make those who expose them the bad guys then just live in their fantasy A world anyway. While the loyal is still left dealing with the reality in my case (my kids) and life probably with mom in hiding or as a full walk away wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

AFEH said:


> Tunera, seems to me that both you and Eli-Zor are "personally embittered" on this exposure thing.


Bob, I have never cheated, nor have I been cheated on. 

I advocate exposure strictly from a position of knowledge of how psychology works.

We avoid that which hurts us. We are attracted to that which makes us feel good.

If exposure makes the affair feel 'bad,' we start avoiding it.

If standing up for your marriage via exposure and fighting for your marriage makes you look like the good guy, your WS is attrracted to you (once the A is over).

Nothing more or less.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> How many have exposed just to have the A continue anyway? If the disloyals in the A do not want to end it then wont they deal with the exposure find comfort in each other make those who expose them the bad guys then just live in their fantasy A world anyway. While the loyal is still left dealing with the reality in my case (my kids) and life probably with mom in hiding or as a full walk away wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It's possible. As is everything.

What's also possible is that, once you've exposed the affair, and they can no longer sneak around to meet up with each other, can no longer delude themselves that they'll be able to bring home the OM/OW to Thanksgiving dinner, and they no longer have their loyal spouse taking care of half their needs, the cheater has to meet ALL their needs. 

And cheaters RARELY want to meet all your needs. They just want to have fun. Especially with WWs, who typically have been sweet-talked by OM to believe the OM cares all about them, will replace their BS with a prince, and they'll live happily ever after - all just to get in her pants...once he proves he's not willing to hold her head over the toilet bowl or pick up her kids from school...the bloom wears off the rose.


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## disbelief

So the what of the personality that already wants to hide just thinking people know liek my W how would that help recover my M? After today supposedly he shut her down again and she is acting that way, like she was told off again. And isn't exposure only effective when the people u tell actually communicate with the disloyal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> How many have exposed just to have the A continue anyway? If the disloyals in the A do not want to end it then wont they deal with the exposure find comfort in each other make those who expose them the bad guys then just live in their fantasy A world anyway. While the loyal is still left dealing with the reality in my case (my kids) and life probably with mom in hiding or as a full walk away wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's exactly what seems to happen reading some of the accounts on TAM.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Bob, I have never cheated, nor have I been cheated on.
> 
> I advocate exposure strictly from a position of knowledge of how psychology works.
> 
> We avoid that which hurts us. We are attracted to that which makes us feel good.
> 
> If exposure makes the affair feel 'bad,' we start avoiding it.
> 
> If standing up for your marriage via exposure and fighting for your marriage makes you look like the good guy, your WS is attrracted to you (once the A is over).
> 
> Nothing more or less.


So you’ve never had an affair and your husband’s never had an affair. So you are not advising people from first hand experience.

Are you a trained psychologist then Tunera and are you in practice?


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## disbelief

Whats tam
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> So the what of the personality that already wants to hide just thinking people know liek my W how would that help recover my M? After today supposedly he shut her down again and she is acting that way, like she was told off again. And isn't exposure only effective when the people u tell actually communicate with the disloyal?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Just imagine letting her work colleagues know what she's doing through "exposure". That’s what they’re talking about with this exposure. I think it’s an exceedingly vindictive and spiteful thing to do. If you let her work colleagues know, your wife would probably have a full blown nervous breakdown and be unable to go into work.

And she’d probably despise you for that. And I can’t think you’d like yourself very much either.


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Whats tam
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This forum Talk About Marriage


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## disbelief

That goes against my core because work is work home is home and so on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

That and we need her income 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Disbelief~

I'm pretty sure you've noticed that I haven't chimed in here much and I would like to take a moment to explain to you why. If you'll notice, your last thread is 17 pages long and this one is already 10 pages long, so what I see that there is a LOT of talking, you come here to the forum pretty often over several items every day...and for each post that you make there are many people who come in and give contradicting suggestions and then just end up either fighting with each other or agreeing but giving their "version" of what to do. So it goes on and on, and it's like patchwork recommendations--you pick some from here and some from there but in no way is there one, consolidated goal toward which you are working. For example, sometimes you'll pick some 180 degree stuff...sometimes DivorceBusting stuff...sometimes thoughts from us (Affaircare)...and sometimes MarriageBuilders stuff. Now they do sort of overlap but the result is that you--disbelief--do not have a clearly defined PURPOSE. You sort of cast about and spin your wheels, and whatever goal you may choose to pursue, you don't actually make any progress toward your goal! 

So all that being said, let me give you my thought on what's going on. Your wife had an EA/PA and on 11/13 you made your first post and said she was taking a week to get space from the OM. Way back on that day she was saying that she felt that leaving was the only option. During the past month, she really has not changed her tune much--and in fact she's now pushing a bit harder to buy "her own home" and wants you to co-sign for a mortgage so she can move out. BUT her OM has gone back to his W, he sent a NC letter to your W, and the OM's W has been sort of cooperating with you to let you know if the OM and your W are in contact. Lately those two have been in touch, but it seems like your W is the one holding onto the A and trying to contact--and he's doing his best to leave her alone and at least making the attempt to rebuild his marriage. And now you're wondering if you should contact the OM and "make" him stop contacting your W, and she is pretty much blaming you for losing the "love of her life." 

Disbelief, I respect you and so I'm going to tell you the truth right to your face. If something doesn't change pretty drastically pretty soon, you are probably 99% going to lose your W. At this time and pretty much from the time you began coming here, she has it in her head that life with you (pre-A) was not good. She was hurt or unheard or ignored or something, and along came the OM and he actually cared about her. He spend time with her; he listened to her; he made her laugh; he complimented her; he care about how she felt; and SHE had feelings for him. It started as a crush, one of them said something (like, "I have feelings for you") and it turned into passion. 

Now compare that to you. You didn't know any of that was going on but you could tell *something was up* because she was acting different. Since you didn't know, you continued to hurt her or ignore her or whatever it was that made the marriage vulnerable in the first place-and to her she'd look at the OM who was treating her passionately and like a queen...and she'd look at you and magnify what faults you do have and think "I'll NEVER go back to that kind of prison!" 

Then you found out. She didn't want to end her affair but for whatever reason it did end...maybe the OM found out it was no longer "their little secret" and he didn't want to divorce so HE ended it. Either way, she did not want to end it, so from her point of view once you found out, you nagged her and embarrassed her and told her OM's W and completely RUINED the one good thing she had going for her. To add insult to injury, you keep wanting to have Relationship Talks and keeping trying to make her give up on "the love of her life" and make it so they can't be together. No matter how many times she tells you, you just don't hear that she does NOT WANT TO END IT! 

Disbelief--if that is what it's like for her, what reason does she have right now to "come home" other than that she has a child with you or "it's the right thing to do"? When she was with him, she felt BEAUTIFUL and desirable and smart and funny and alive. Have you done anything to show her--through your actions and the way you treat her--that things will be different if she did try? Have you done anything to confuse her so that she says to herself, "Ummm..wow that's not like him. He used to XYZ and he did the exact opposite this time!" :scratchhead: Nope. You are so narrowly focused on HER and whether she contacts and whether OM contacts back and for how long...and then yelling at her about it...that if anything you've reinforced for her that nothing has really changed. And she told herself she would NEVER return to that kind of prison! 

So if you really want to know what you should do, here's my suggestion. PICK ONE METHOD, decide for yourself what your goal is *for YOU* .... not her! ... and then focus on pursuing that goal with single-minded determination. Rather than picking some here and some there, and doing a hodge-podge of nothing...PICK ONE and then do it with all your ability 

Our seven steps are specifically made to go together. One builds on top of the other. We recommend #1 Gather Evidence so that when you have that gut feeling that "something's not right" and she tells you that you're nuts and you're making something out of nothing...you have PROOF that your gut feeling was right and it's not just made up. It was REAL and you may not be able to trust her as far as you can throw her, but you *can* trust YOU! Then we recommend #2 Confront because it is the most dignified, private, respectful and honest way you can deal with your spouse whom you now know is having an affair. You give them the chance to do the right thing and end it privately so that the fewest number of people know. Their reputation can be saved if they choose to honor their marriage vows and even though they may not be treating you with dignity, respect and honesty, their bad behavior is not license for YOU to behave badly. So you do the right thing first! Then we recommend #3 Disclose so that it's still pretty private, respectful and honest, but now you have enlisted the help of a mentor to whom they look up and respect who will help them find their way back home! When a wise parent, pastor, teacher, boss or mentor comes to you and it's someone you respect, sometimes they will listen and realize they're doing the wrong thing--give them a chance! Next we recommend #4 Expose not because we are encouraging vengeance or dragging their name through the mud, but because part of what makes an affair "work" is the secrecy of it. They count on you to be too embarrassed to tell the truth! And when they say "You're dragging my name through the mud" it is not you telling the truth that would harm their reputation--it is their choice to commit adultery!! The exposure is meant to inform people who will likely be impacted if there is a divorce. For example, did you know that if she does move out and try to chase after this OM, and you have primary custody--her parents are going to lose most of their time with their grandchild! If you do divorce and one day remarry chances are good that wife #2 will not tolerate going to exW's parent's house for a visit! She'll want to take grandkids to her own parents and your parents for gramma and grampa visits right? So your W's parents need to know that due to their daughter's adultery they are about to lose considerable time with their grandchild. Your employer needs to know why you sit at your desk as if in a daze, why you have to call in to go to court, etc. or she/he could fire you! See what I mean?

Now, Disbelief, can you see how our steps work together, one after the other? If you take *some* of our method and don't do some of the steps but do part of another step...will it have the desired affect? Nope. What if you take some of the 180...but not all of it, just bits and pieces? It would be more like the 20 then right?  My point is that all of the different methods are put together they way they are for a reason. They do overlap each other quite a bit, that's true, but for the most likely positive outcome you need to pick one and let it have the best possible chance of success. Follow it like your life depends on it (in a way it kind of does!)!! And I don't mind if you pick the DivorceBusting one or the MarriageBuilders one because those are both good systems and I have worked with both and have lots of successful friends with both. Naturally I think ours is best  but I'm biased! 

No matter WHICH option you choose, two things are going to have to happen. This just is NOT optional: 
*1) You are going to have to start thinking about what YOU want and then purposefully deciding on how to get there*. I'm not talking about being selfish and not considering her at all. What I mean is that right now it seems as if you REACT from a place of emotions rather than ACTING from a place of decision. Let me give you an example. 

Let's say that you think about what you want, and you decide that you made a vow to this woman and even though she's going through a rough time now and it hurts a lot, you are determined to honor your vow and take a brave stand for the family. So that's your goal. You are bound and determined to allow her to make her own decisions and live by the consequences of her decisions, but YOUR actions and YOUR decisions are going to honor your marriage vows and stabilize the family. Okay? Got that in mind? 

So she comes home from work and she's ALL grouchy and starts blaming you for driving off the love of her life and she can't see any way she'll ever love you again...blah blah blah. If you were reacting from a place of emotion, you would join her in her whirlwind of feelings, start pointing out all the places she's wrong, argue with her about how it will never work out, feel all hurt and then come here to the forum for "advice" and cast about for magic words to fix this. But if you were ACTING from a place of DECISION, you would not join the whirlwind, you'd say "I realize that's how you feel today and it sounds like right now you feel pretty hopeless. But just so you know, I made a vow to you to love you, and right now I am stating that I intend to honor that vow to the best of my ability. I'm going to work to make this marriage one in which we are both happy and feel loved, and I hope some day you'll join me but that's up to you." YOU are not shaken. YOU are solid and stable. YOU are for the marriage. And she can whirlwind all she wants but you are not moved. 

Make sense? So right now, the next time she contacts, comes to you, talks to you...ANYTHING...before you do or say anything stop yourself and think: "Does this promote my goal?" If what you are about to do or say does not promote your decided goal...then don't do it. If you have to, walk away or take a break. Learn how to control yourself. If you don't learn how to get this under control you will lose your wife. 

*2) You are going to have to start taking your focus off of her and what she's doing, and start single-mindedly placing your focus on you*. Again, I don't mean in a selfish, self-centered way that is immature. I mean focus on you so that you know you, you know what your strengths and weaknesses are, you know what you need to work on, you know where you need help or need to grow, and you can clearly define your goal and your boundaries. Do you know what boundaries are? A lot of people think boundaries would be me telling you what you can and can not do. Nope--nothing could be further from the truth. Let me give you an example of a boundary. 

When I was a child, I was physically abused by my parents--meaning they hit me with boards and broom handles. As such I some counseling of my own and I've overcome a lot, but I know me. I do not tolerate physical abuse at all, and I have pretty low tolerance of emotional abuse. So my boundary for a spouse (my life partner) is that I have a zero tolerance for physical abuse. Zero. I can not deal with it at all. So my boundary is not telling my spouse "Hey you can't physically abuse me." My boundary is putting a fence around me, saying "I will not tolerate even one episode of physical abuse." It is about ME and what I will and will not accept in my life. Okay? 

Right now you are pretty focused on your W, what she's up to, whether she's in contact, etc. and even though you may eventually break up the A, she'll resent you for "making her" lose the love of her life. If you were focused on you, you'd be doing two things: a) digging into "what things did I do or say that contributed to her being vulnerable to another man's advances?" and b) what will I and won't I accept in my life? For a) you'd be being honest with yourself, learning, reading, etc. and be making changes to how you think, how you act, and how you treat her. This would confuse her because she thinks you'll never change and she knows you...and suddenly you'd go off and act ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY. She might even get curious. So you would be making yourself a better man and not ignoring her, but be YOU and let her come to you and say, "Umm...hey what's different about you?" And for b) you'd be saying to her, "You know, I respect myself too much to treated like this forever. So you go ahead and choose tonight to really give 100% of your affection and loyalty to ME, or I'll be sad but I'll get over it. I'm not willing to take crumbs anymore. When you're ready to give me 100%...look me up I'll be right here."


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> So the what of the personality that already wants to hide just thinking people know liek my W how would that help recover my M? After today supposedly he shut her down again and she is acting that way, like she was told off again. And isn't exposure only effective when the people u tell actually communicate with the disloyal?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Not at all! The MAIN effect of exposure is to let your waywar wife know that, now, everyone important to her KNOWS that she has cheated on her husband.

They don't even have to talk to her. The next time she contacts her lover, she KNOWS that her loved ones, the ones whose respect she craves, think 'that' about her.

Suddenly, the affair is no longer fun, exciting titillating. It's embarrassing and she is in damage control mode. They don't even have to contact her!

Suddenly, the affair is not all it's cracked up to be.


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## turnera

AFEH said:


> So you’ve never had an affair and your husband’s never had an affair. So you are not advising people from first hand experience.
> 
> Are you a trained psychologist then Tunera and are you in practice?


 Nope, nope, nope, nope and nope.

However, I DO have a pretty good track record both on MB and MA and EON and here, for having a really good handle on what both BS and WS are doing and want, and will do. Because I know people.

fwiw, Bob, you tend to be extremely reactionary, as opposed to me, who merely acts on what I've learned and intuitively know about people. 

If we're going to call anyone out on the carpet, maybe it would be the one who's divorcing/being divorced after 40 years, rather than the one who has taken what she has learned and applied it to her marriage.


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## turnera

AFEH said:


> Just imagine letting her work colleagues know what she's doing through "exposure". That’s what they’re talking about with this exposure. I think it’s an exceedingly vindictive and spiteful thing to do. If you let her work colleagues know, your wife would probably have a full blown nervous breakdown and be unable to go into work.
> 
> And she’d probably despise you for that. And I can’t think you’d like yourself very much either.


 Please let me correct this misinterpretation from Bob, who seems to have an agenda to stop all marriage recovery attempts. Exposure, is to (1) your WS's #1 best friend (mother, father, friend, whatever); if that doesn't work, then to (2) your WS's parents, siblings, and best friend. 

I can't recall anyone here advocating exposure to all the work gang.


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## disbelief

Thank you Affaircare. Yes I have been struggling with this a posotive is my emotional response is under control I am thinking before speaking. And remaining calm. I have never put myself first so that is hard. I do come to the board with more emotion up front than in person this forum has kept me sane. Today felt like a gamechanger kind of day and I will be rereading your post in the AM. 
I very much appreciate that post I feel like I just took a step back to reevaluate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> Please let me correct this misinterpretation from Bob, ...


It isn't a misinterpretation, Turnera, it is a deliberate _misrepresentation_. It's the normal straw man argument used to avoid rational thought and evoke emotional reaction (fallacy: appeal to emotion, with an appeal to popular opinion as well. ).


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> Nope, nope, nope, nope and nope.
> 
> However, I DO have a pretty good track record both on MB and MA and EON and here, for having a really good handle on what both BS and WS are doing and want, and will do. Because I know people.
> 
> fwiw, Bob, you tend to be extremely reactionary, as opposed to me, who merely acts on what I've learned and intuitively know about people.
> 
> If we're going to call anyone out on the carpet, maybe it would be the one who's divorcing/being divorced after 40 years, rather than the one who has taken what she has learned and applied it to her marriage.



Me reactionary. I've been exceedingly consistent. I will post when I think alternative advice is called for and when I think the advice being given is wrong. It is a difference of opinion.

One of those differences is that there are advocates of exposure and advocates of the absolute opposite. Affaircare’s process supported by yourself gets one heck of a lot of promotion here one way or another.

I think it exceeding important that new posters know there is a clear alternative and know what the differences are. Plus that they also know that there are success stories over at DivorceBusters. Just so people know I have absolutely no financial interest in DivorceBusters whatsoever.

Plus unlike you Tunera, I have actually experienced first hand affairs both on my side and on my wife’s side.

There is absolutely no way our marriage would have lasted for over 30 years after the last affair if the affairs had been exposed in the way you advocate.

Not the least of that that my family truly loved my wife. If they had known about my wife’s affair they would have forgiven her and quickly moved on. But it is my wife who, through a sense of deep shame, who may never have stepped back into my family and would never have been as comfortable as she was with them if she did. When we got back from our overseas contract she could hold her head up high and with her self-respect and dignity.


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## AFEH

Tanelornpete said:


> It isn't a misinterpretation, Turnera, it is a deliberate _misrepresentation_. It's the normal straw man argument used to avoid rational thought and evoke emotional reaction (fallacy: appeal to emotion, with an appeal to popular opinion as well. ).



That's way off base.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> I can't recall anyone here advocating exposure to all the work gang.


That's happened and you know full well it's happened.

Tunera, do you honestly believe that even if one or two people in the workplace are informed, even under a confidentiality agreement, that everyone in the office or wherever wont have heard about it within a week?


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> That and we need her income
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Absolutely.

She’s in an emotional turmoil and I know you know that. She is having a difficult enough time coping with that. And I know you know that as well. The last thing she needs is for yet more people to know what’s going on and yet more things she has to deal with at the emotional level.

Nobody knows what your situation really is no matter what you write here. Your gut is telling certain things and in it’s way advising you on the path to take. Listen to your gut, those things are rarely wrong and if we ignore it we typically regret it downstream.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Suddenly, the affair is no longer fun, exciting titillating. It's embarrassing and she is in damage control mode. They don't even have to contact her!
> 
> Suddenly, the affair is not all it's cracked up to be.



Tunera, that is the exact opposite of how Disbelief describes his wife’s affair. Maybe you were reading another thread or something.


----------



## turnera

AFEH said:


> But it is my wife who, through a sense of deep shame, who may never have stepped back into my family and would never have been as comfortable as she was with them if she did. When we got back from our overseas contract she could hold her head up high and with her self-respect and dignity.


Then you have missed a huge opportunity for your wife to do some very important soul-searching, therapy, and forgiveness of herself, something that is essential for you two to truly have a healthy, forward-moving marriage. You have wrapped your shame in the cocoon of your marriage and buried it, pretending it isn't there. If she cannot come forward to your family with humility and admission, she is missing out on what could be a huge core component of her life.

Her self-respect and dignity you claim she returned with is a sham, because she is pretending to be something she is not.

IMO, living a life where you have to hide the truth is a painful, unfulfilled life. Of course, now, that the affairs are (hopefully) over, there's no reason to talk about it. But at the time, when she was ready to end the affair, she could have come to them with the truth and, if they would forgive her as you say, she has lost out on some very important, valuable friends and support, by now having to forever not tell them.

Or course all that's moot because you're divorcing. But maybe if she'd felt safe to talk to them, something could have changed.

JMHO

Sorry to t/j.


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## turnera

AFEH said:


> That's happened and you know full well it's happened.
> 
> Tunera, do you honestly believe that even if one or two people in the workplace are informed, even under a confidentiality agreement, that everyone in the office or wherever wont have heard about it within a week?


 I believe I said family and best friend. Nothing about work. 

Never about work unless it's a work affair, and then only to the BOSS who can DO something about it.


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## F-102

At this point, I'd just say let her go, and she can sink or swim on her own. She had already made up her mind long ago that she can do better than you, and she has proven to herself that she can indeed land what she thinks is a better deal. But the OM didn't work out, and even if she came back to you with open arms, she would probably be the loyal wife that you want, until she meets someone new again, and next time, she'll tell herself that "this time I'm going to get it right." And you'll be right back to where this all started.


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## disbelief

AFEH said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> She’s in an emotional turmoil and I know you know that. She is having a difficult enough time coping with that. And I know you know that as well. The last thing she needs is for yet more people to know what’s going on and yet more things she has to deal with at the emotional level.
> 
> Nobody knows what your situation really is no matter what you write here. Your gut is telling certain things and in it’s way advising you on the path to take. Listen to your gut, those things are rarely wrong and if we ignore it we typically regret it downstream.


I do know she is hurting and in turmoil. I do not deny her feelings being real. I have been active listening and read about validating to try to help with this communication she has been starting more conversations than me unfortunately hers include divorce and moving out.

My gut: my gut says no matter what I do she is going to leave its just a matter of when.
A deeper part of me says everythings going to be ok and I know it will at some point M or D.
She has D papers filled out she has a real estate deal she has to decide on sooner than later I am not cosigning. So yes I am frustrated and unsure which approach to take, unsure which method to follow. 

Affaircares post from last night and yesterdays events here make me feel like its a reassessment point. It even matched my horoscope.

I will not file for D not now I will not say never because if it drags on and on and there is no progress then I may concede.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

OK I am taking all of last nights advice in especially yours Affaircare. I truly do not know how to proceed. I don't feel exposing will work. The OM tells his spouse whenever he has contact with my spouse. Is this normal if he is trying to continue the A he swears he wants to fix his M? 

For kicks since she is working the day I looked at the texting online they went back and forth for about a half hour started by my W. Like F102 says I am at the point where maybe just let her go. And like I said i have no support for exposing. OM Spouse doesn't want to. My W's sister doesn't want her parents to know. And sorry I have to deal with these people the rest of my life with kids. The way my gut feels is my wife has checked out and exposing will only make her mad and check her out futher. So I am not trying to be wishy washy. If I didn't have kids I might be walking. I truly don't know what to do. Other than just let whatever happen. 
The OM was my best friend and is closely tied to my family here it is (BIL). He supposedly still cares about what happens to my family. OM spouse says he has been trying to convince my W to stay in my M. OM swears to his W that if it is the A is exposed he will not try to reconcile.OM Swears the A ended in june and they began talking again when it was exposed to us spouses)
OM spouse is far less concerned than I am, probably because he says he is going to work on M. So yes maybe some of this is repetition and I am sorry.

My thought that started this post was this. OM and i were very good friends since high school. Then he did this. He may still give a care. he may not. In anyones opinion Is it worth me writing an email. Polite and to the point along the lines of no contact of how i would appreciate it if he would stop contacting and not respond to my W.
I believe from her actions and behavior she is more stuck on this than he is.

The last bit that ties in is they both think that me and OM spouse are controlling and trying to be threatening and controlling here. There have been no threats. OM suspects because I speak with his W we are plotting. I have every right to talk to OM spouse by the way. 

OM also thinks he is being followed.

Do I confront W on todays text she knows i look or forget it it doesnt matter go back to monitoring.

I think her plan is file D after new years get her mortgage close on the house by mid Jan.

So I am at a loss torn on the exposure because where I sit it seems it would do more harm than good.

Thanks everyone,


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## turnera

Every BS says that. It is spoken out of fear. Exposure does one thing: convince the WS that no one is going to just accept her affair.

fwiw, your marriage CAN survive her anger. It CANNOT survive another man.


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## Eli-Zor

So what are you going to do???????

This is you BIL, wonderful.

Your wife's sister does not want the parents to know. Why because it would tarnish your wife's reputation!

They are still talking, I assure the OM is laughing at you and the affair continues with lovey dovey comments in between him saying he is trying to save your marriage. 

Your wife loves this situation, she gets to talk to the OM and refresh her "love" for him. He gets to talk to your wife like a lover and then tells his wife the biggest load of gobildy **** man has ever heard. 

The OM's wife, your sister is not prepared to do anything.

He is NOT YOUR FRIEND, friends do not have affairs with your wife....

You have been advised what to do, yet you ask.

It takes a few phone calls, a lot of courage, and a whole lot of honesty. 

Then there will be a fall out, at least is no more lying..

Remind your sister, her marriage is in more danger than yours, her husband is lying to her daily.

You are a husband who loves his wife please start acting like one.. you have gone back and forth between your wife's threat of the D word and a total sense of fear......so take the bull by the horns and lead for a change.


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## Tiredspouse0297

Sorry but I'm in shock. If there is a work affair you would go to their boss??? So you want them to be fired and humiliated? I'm in complete awe over this whole idea of shame and blame. This smacks of vengeance and control. Bringing the affair into the light of day is supposed to fix your marriage? Humiliating and shaming your spouse, getting them fired and causing problems with their immediate family is no way to "fix" anything. Completely speechless...


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> OK I am taking all of last nights advice in especially yours Affaircare. I truly do not know how to proceed. I don't feel exposing will work. The OM tells his spouse whenever he has contact with my spouse. Is this normal if he is trying to continue the A he swears he wants to fix his M?
> 
> For kicks since she is working the day I looked at the texting online they went back and forth for about a half hour started by my W. Like F102 says I am at the point where maybe just let her go. And like I said i have no support for exposing. OM Spouse doesn't want to. My W's sister doesn't want her parents to know. And sorry I have to deal with these people the rest of my life with kids. The way my gut feels is my wife has checked out and exposing will only make her mad and check her out futher. So I am not trying to be wishy washy. If I didn't have kids I might be walking. I truly don't know what to do. Other than just let whatever happen.
> The OM was my best friend and is closely tied to my family here it is (BIL). He supposedly still cares about what happens to my family. OM spouse says he has been trying to convince my W to stay in my M. OM swears to his W that if it is the A is exposed he will not try to reconcile.OM Swears the A ended in june and they began talking again when it was exposed to us spouses)
> OM spouse is far less concerned than I am, probably because he says he is going to work on M. So yes maybe some of this is repetition and I am sorry.
> 
> My thought that started this post was this. OM and i were very good friends since high school. Then he did this. He may still give a care. he may not. In anyones opinion Is it worth me writing an email. Polite and to the point along the lines of no contact of how i would appreciate it if he would stop contacting and not respond to my W.
> I believe from her actions and behavior she is more stuck on this than he is.
> 
> The last bit that ties in is they both think that me and OM spouse are controlling and trying to be threatening and controlling here. There have been no threats. OM suspects because I speak with his W we are plotting. I have every right to talk to OM spouse by the way.
> 
> OM also thinks he is being followed.
> 
> Do I confront W on todays text she knows i look or forget it it doesnt matter go back to monitoring.
> 
> I think her plan is file D after new years get her mortgage close on the house by mid Jan.
> 
> So I am at a loss torn on the exposure because where I sit it seems it would do more harm than good.
> 
> Thanks everyone,


That's better, a load more information. Sounds like you are really getting grounded. Or maybe you've been that way all the time.

You will be ok. Right now you have a massive amount to handle.

Sometimes those scales just don't balance.

Bob


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## Eli-Zor

> Sorry but I'm in shock. If there is a work affair you would go to their boss??? So you want them to be fired and humiliated? I'm in complete awe over this whole idea of shame and blame. This smacks of vengeance and control. Bringing the affair into the light of day is supposed to fix your marriage? Humiliating and shaming your spouse, getting them fired and causing problems with their immediate family is no way to "fix" anything. Completely speechles


Perhaps you should read how very very effective the exposure/disclosure route is. It is called honesty. So you would be content the BIL sits at the Christmas dinner table with the family, other than disbelief no one knows he is having an affair with disbeliefs wife??



> That's better, a load more information. Sounds like you are really getting grounded. Or maybe you've been that way all the time


Sorry I suspected a long time ago that this was a family member that is why I have been pushing to break the contact. Why do you think I have referenced the OM's wife so often!!!!


Please disbelief make the calls , get it over, it does not change the landscape on your side much but it does cause a problem for the OM and your wife.


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## disbelief

I ask because I am confused and I have read divorce busting too and they go by don't expose. My w barely speaks to her dad her sibling knows her mother doesn't they've all had A's. Same with his family they don't talk the one sibling he talsk to knows?? So this how we ended up with yesterdays posts. The families aren't close my W doesn't have a friend network.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

At the end of the day disbelief you have a mountain of reasons not to do it, so lets agree we no longer advise you to do this as you have no intention of following the advice.

Tell us what your plan is ? If it is the divorce busting plan you are running to then let us know the next step is?


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## disbelief

Rt now scream
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tiredspouse0297

Eli-Zor said:


> Perhaps you should read how very very effective the exposure/disclosure route is.
> 
> 
> It is called honesty


There can be honesty without "exposing" the affair to the world. Would you tell everyone when you have marital problems if they didn't involve an affair? If my husband had an affair I might talk about it to my family or best friend but going to his place of work or his family is really crossing the line. I never cheated on my ex but when I chose to divorce him he went to my family and told them I was leaving for no reason and was sleeping around. They chose him over me and created a rift in my family that is still healing seven years later. In the end I am still their daughter and now that they know the truth they feel horrible. 
Maybe it works for some but it seems highly destructive to me. I would cut off all contact with a spouse who did this to me.


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## disbelief

My Ws sister wont answer my calls off and on for 2 weeks I have tried
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

Disbelief:

Random thoughts in no particular order:

Stop attempting to control everyone. Back off and simply control YOU. Yes, you ARE trying to control, to manipulate, and in other ways, trying to arrange the lives of others to get what you want. That fails. Always.

I would advise that you stop contacting the Other Man's wife. I know you won't hear me, but this is a danger in itself that could create more troubles for you in the future. I am not sure how you determine that you have the 'right' to talk to her - perhaps you may WANT to, but the idea that you are entitled to speak to another man's wife is stretching the bounds of rationality. Wanting to do something, even finding reasons to do so, in no way conjures up a 'right.' 

No Contact is no contact. Every contact you have with the Other Woman is a contact by proxy for your wife: it tends to continue the relationship that must end, permanently, completely and immediately.

If the other man contacts you wife, you have an opportunity at that time to request that he end all contact with your family, and that you will file a restraining order if he does not comply. If your wife contacts him, his wife can take the same step.

Other than that, I repeat, end all contact. 

(This is just to repeat what others have said) Do NOT sign for any loans, mortgages, separations, etc. Let your wife experience ALL of the problems her decisions bring upon her. SHE is responsible for her actions.

Observe that the Other Man is giving you excuses in order to stay in contact with your wife. In fact, he is even threatening to refuse to work on his marriage if there is any exposure. 

This indicates that he is NOT serious about his marriage. This is NOT YOUR PROBLEM, unless he and your wife remain in contact. What happens in his marriage is HIS responsibility (and that of HIS wife). NOT YOURS. 



> So I am at a loss torn on the exposure because where I sit it seems it would do more harm than good.


I am not sure what a 'loss torn' is (never heard that before) but I assume that you mean that it is worse for you to have your wife angry at you for un-hiding her affair than it is for her to move out, get her own house, and divorce you. Makes me wonder why you are even bothering to try to save your marriage if all of that is preferable!

You write that you 'have no support for exposure.' This indicates that you have an entirely wrong concept of the idea of exposure anyway, and most likely is an excuse you have manufactured in order to avoid any possible conflict - in the hopes that by avoiding this conflict, you can manipulate your wife into 'liking' you. Exposure, if done properly, removes the secrecy from an affair, forcing it out into the open. A secondary reason is to prepare people (for example, your wife's parents) who will be directly and permanently affected by the outcome of the divorce toward which you are leaping and dancing, flinging platitudes and voicing worries (as if they mattered to you) like flower petals. 

You don't need 'support.' The affair needs to be uncovered, so that it is no longer a secret between you, your wife, the Other Man, and his wife. Your little secret is going to harm more people than that.

NOTE: The Other Man is just as intent on keeping this affair alive as your wife is. He is lying to his wife, contacting yours, and using threats to keep from facing the problem and taking responsibility.

I would give him a very short time in which to demonstrate that he has FULLY and COMPLETELY cut ALL CONTACT with your wife. After that, I would advise that you expose this as an ongoing affair. 

Think about this carefully. Do not leap to conclusions. Use ALL of your ability to consider to understand what I wrote above: YOUR WIFE CONTACTING HIM is not included in any inference above. She may well try to do so: it may well take the Other Man and his wife filing a restraining order to stop her. That is an entirely different matter. What matters here is that the Other Man does NOT respond, does NOT accept emails, texts, phone calls, letters sent by post, personal visits.

Note, it is not acceptable for her to contact any of his friends or family. That avenue is CLOSED. ANY attempt to contact those people is contact through back doors. NO CONTACT means NO contact. 

Most important: you have to begin thinking. You still are refusing to be proactive. EVERYTHING you do is a reaction. And your attempts to control others are done by trying to convince people (as unobtrusively as possible!) to do the things you want them to do.


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## disbelief

I am still figuring that out have to deal with the rest of life rt now. This is exhausting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Tiredspouse029:...FYI the route proposed is the Marriage Builders plan and is not a personal view, it is an end to end program to stop an affair and rebuild the marriage. 

Affairecare follow a similar plan with modifications.

There is no vindictiveness or revenge scenario here. 

Which is why I ask what is the next step, disbelief is sitting in limbo because there are contradicting opinions here. So please give him his next step?

Tanelornpete...thanks you answered this more eloquently than myself...

I am not sure if you noticed the OM's wife is disbeliefs sister which is complicating the matter.


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete I say I have the rt to contact his W because we have been related since birth. Me to his W that is my sister yeah I didn't want it on the board. I am reactionary because I want to go expose but what I see happening is everyone being mad at me period my W's family I think his family really wont care his spouse said they would favor my W. Until this past weekend I thought the NC was working. Christmas will not be together. I thought the A was over that was the other reason of not exposing because I was told that would be just as bad as the A. If I expose it will be like Dec 27 or something kids win with santa.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> I ask because I am confused and I have read divorce busting too and they go by don't expose...


I thought this had been cleared up some time ago. Divorce Busters is not against exposure. Perhaps this can be best illustrated by taking a look at our Carrot & Stick step on Affaircare.com.

If you were to read through that entire step you would see that it never mentions exposure, nor does it recommend you do so. In fact, it generally assumes that you do NOT do any exposure in that step, nor the two after it. Why? Because you've ALREADY done that BEFORE you started that step!

The same goes for how Divorce Busters works - you've leaped to the middle of the program and are following that. In essence, Divorce Buster's program is an enlargement of Plan A (or our Carrot & Stick). The fact that it concentrates on that one particular step of the fight to save a marriage does not negate the fact that other steps should be taken before you get to that.

Perhaps an analogy might help: you feel some pain, you go to a doctor, who refers you to a specialist. A series of tests are done, and it is determined that you must have some surgery. That is scheduled, and on the morning of your surgery, you check yourself in for the procedure. 

Does it seem logical to you that the surgeon start by doing all the tests that have already been done? Should he refer you to the specialist? Of course not: his job is ONE step in the entire process. Divorce Busters concentrates on Plan A. 

Does this argue that exposure is necessary? Of course not! NONE of the steps here are necessary! Randomly, an affair will die and the wandering spouse will come back home. But the chances of that are extremely remote, and what is offered here, at Affaircare, at Marriage Builders, at Divorce Busters, and so on - are ways of increasing the possibility for recovery. 

What I would hold as necessary is that you begin to be pro-active, to start actually thinking (that is, begin reasoning through a process of inferential logic, rather than inductive silliness). Regardless of the outcome, YOU will improve - and that improves your 'chances' of a healthy relationship.


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## Tanelornpete

> I am not sure if you noticed the OM's wife is disbeliefs sister which is complicating the matter.


I sort of suspected this some time ago. This does not negate the notion of NO contact. Disbelief's family is at home: his wife and kids. While it may be unfortunate, his family does not end by losing contact with certain members of extended family. This is a consequence of an affair.

I can also understand why his wife sees divorce as the only possible outcome (beyond the fact that this is the most common belief for how to avoid problems) - she is stuck in a family in which the choice will come down to choosing the husband that she doesn't particularly feel positive emotions for at the moment, and her (VERY ) dysfunctional _extended_ family.


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## Tanelornpete

> Tanelornpete I say I have the rt to contact his W because we have been related since birth.


I am objecting to the term 'right' - that is a very specific word. We have _very_ few 'rights', we have more 'privileges' and a lot of 'preferences'. It is wrong to call something to which you feel you are 'entitled' to be a 'right.' 

Yes, it may be painful to lose conversation with your sister, but at the same time, your vows are to your wife, not your sister. I suggest (as noted above) that you do some very careful thinking. Create a list of propositions, and learn the conclusions of those: which is more important: your sister or your wife? 

When you learn this answer, you will have already freed yourself of all the stress you are facing: you'll have the answer to what you must do. It is that simple.


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## disbelief

With that knowledge and sorry I didn't want it on the board my parents were always very supportive of both spouses I guess that would be another reason they wouldn't deal if exposed
and up til now I thought nc was working if sis in law would answer she would tell me.she doesn't want to see us D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz

disbelief said:


> Tanelornpete I say I have the rt to contact his W because we have been related since birth. Me to his W that is my sister yeah I didn't want it on the board.


Despite what anyone tells you, here or in the rest of your life, you can speak to your sister--period.

If your sister does not want you to speak to her--without pressure from her cheating husband or anyone else--then you ought to respect that.

However, there is an assault on your marriage and hers for that matter.

If you want protection for you, your wife, and your sister too, then act accordingly.

Airing the truth versus agreeing to secrecy?

Seems simple to me.


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## disbelief

I air it it affects my sister she doesn't want to air it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz

disbelief said:


> I air it it affects my sister she doesn't want to air it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She said that directly to you? Why?


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## disbelief

All the reason I have already posted and if the news made it to her public job and she believes the a to be over she is not as suspicious as I because he is telling her of the calls wher mine is keeping secrets
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz

So then, she has told you specifically NOT to speak to her anymore?

Yes or no.


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## disbelief

No I can talk to my sis (om spouse). Om did a NC txt to my W last wknd of nov OM SPOUSE witnessed he broke it also. Om spouse sent my W a NC letter via email this past wknd apparenly that opened a can of worms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Tiredspouse0297 said:


> Sorry but I'm in shock. If there is a work affair you would go to their boss??? So you want them to be fired and humiliated? I'm in complete awe over this whole idea of shame and blame. This smacks of vengeance and control. Bringing the affair into the light of day is supposed to fix your marriage? Humiliating and shaming your spouse, getting them fired and causing problems with their immediate family is no way to "fix" anything. Completely speechless...


I'm gathering you're not familiar with the Marriage Builders approach. Exposure, early on, to the boss of coworkers involved in an affair rarely ends in dismissal. It can, however, end in the two people being separated and reassigned. This is not shame and blame. It is saving a marriage and saving a cheater from him/herself. Bosses don't want to fire their employees; replacing them is expensive! It rarely happens, and it even more rarely gets beyond the boss's office.

Many many marriages have been saved when the BS tells the WS's family what's going on, and those family members then go to the WS and tell them they are underwhelmed and want them to fix their marriage and not take the cheater's way out. These are the people your WS cares about most, the ones whose respect they crave. It's about the most powerful way to 'wake up' a cheater - to realize that no one is just going to accept their new behavior and welcome an OM/OW into their family. It busts up the affair like no other.

And, these are the people who are most likely to forgive and forget, once the WS gives up the affair and admits their mistake.

It is recommended, Tiredspouse, because _it works._ Dr Harley has based his recommendations on more than 30 years of working with families torn by affairs. Read up on it if you don't believe me.


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## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> All the reason I have already posted and if the news made it to her public job and she believes the a to be over she is not as suspicious as I because he is telling her of the calls wher mine is keeping secrets
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really dumb question on my part - exactly why aren't you in the BIL POS grill right now? I'm not an advocate of violence but this jackass needs the fear of YOU put in him. What is he 12? I would have let him have it with both barrels from day one. 

I know you're afraid of losing your wife entirely. What else are you afraid of? Not your in-laws and what they think I hope. You're not the one that made this big mess! It's the dear wife and dear jackass BIL. They knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong. Not only did they betray you but also her sister! 

This is tough man and you've got some guts. Hang in there for the kids if nothing else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Powerbane said:


> Really dumb question on my part - exactly why aren't you in the BIL POS grill right now? I'm not an advocate of violence but this jackass needs the fear of YOU put in him. What is he 12? I would have let him have it with both barrels from day one.


I have to agree.

However, you are not showing your own wife much spunk, either. You're afraid of losing her? Hon, you already have. You lost her respect for you because you have caved and not demanded she leave and get a divorce. No woman will stay with a man they cannot respect.


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## disbelief

I had to purposley avoid the street. I value my kids more than hurting him. I am no longer afraid of her walking out the door sad for the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Disbelief, I have read all of the posts and will still say IMHO exposure will only make matters worse with your wife and sister. Give it time. Since he is a friend of your you could call him and tell him his repeated contact is only allowing your wife to believe there is still a chance with him. Be prepared to hear lies. If YOU are not ready to throw in the towel and YOU believe there is still a chance then do what YOU believe is right. In my case, the exposure would have assuredly turned my wife away. I made the decision that if she really wanted me, she would end it on her own. I don't think my wife was as emotionally attached as yours is as she repeatedly said the OM wasn't marriage material and it was a sex affair more than anything else. Even so, she went through a period of mourning so I honestly believe there was an emotional element. I do know the type of exposure advocated would have caused her long term problems and with young kids I would NEVER tell them until they were emotionally mature adults and then only if we hadn't reconciled. I almost told my adult daughter and now am glad I didn't. It would have changed her feelings toward her mom forever. Only you know all the circumstances and only you know how your wife would most likely react.

In terms of revealing what you know, what real benefit would there be other than exposing that you can see what she is doing and that would assuredly shut down that channel of monitoring for you. If you do contact the OM, do NOT reveal what you know precisely and DO NOT reveal how you found out. Only that you know he continues to contact her and you want him to stop. DO NOT get into an argument or go further - he may just repeat everything to your wife. 

Col head - engage brain before opening mouth. Take ALL of the opinions on this site as just that - OPINIONS. Everyones situation is different and NO ONE here knows all.


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## 8yearscheating

As for all of the negative comments about having lost her - You folks are NOT being supportive. Disbelief is telling everyone what he wants and MOST of you are not listening to him.


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## 8yearscheating

GO disbelief - you are doing great! Look to the future and do what you believe is best.


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## disbelief

They both know how I find out. She is emotionally stuck and I think she would rather fight to get him back than try to fix us so how do you fight that. I believe I am just supposed to act like I am moving on and see if she comes back rt? Didn't plan on posting like this today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> I have to agree.
> 
> However, you are not showing your own wife much spunk, either. You're afraid of losing her? Hon, you already have. You lost her respect for you because you have caved and not demanded she leave and get a divorce. No woman will stay with a man they cannot respect.


I stuck by my guns not to file the divorce that's the easy way and for me to file would make it easy on her I know when she filled it out she left the house crying. She wants the D she can file it. I may go so far as challenge her reasons if that's possible. It was because of the kids I didn't kick her out. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Regardless of everything, don't lose hope, believe in your own goodness for the kids. Somehow things have a way of working out one way or the other. Now - it's a waiting game. Stay strong my man!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Hey Disbelief I have a couple of quick clarifications to make: 

1) No one is telling you that you can not talk to your sister. After all, if you divorce and/or she divorces you two WILL be siblings. What we are saying is that you promised your wife 100% of your affection and loyalty--and she made a similar promise to her husband (the BIL/OM). So your #1 loyalty is to your WIFE, not your sister. Right now, due to all that's going on, you may need to be willing to end contact with your sister for the good of your marriage and her marriage. That doesn't mean you've done something wrong or that she has--but rather that your loyalty is to your WIFE and so for the honor of your wife and marriage, in order to really end this A, you two (you and your sis) agree to not be in each other's lives for a little while. Okay does that make sense?

2) Disbelief do you see what you're doing? When I wrote to you last night, the great big message was that you need to control yourself and stop focusing on your W, the OM (your BIL) and the OM's W (your sis), and start focusing on YOU. But do you see what you're doing today? You are spinning your wheels getting all kinds of opinions on exposure and talking the OM...and none of that has to do with YOU. Right now, since it's not clear who has and has not already been told, and since exposure is unclear and things are all confusing and unstable, let's focus. For now, set aside exposure and set aside talking to the OM/BIL and do what will profit both you and your marriage...think about YOU and not them. 

*Okay so I have an assignment for you.* Before you post again, talk to your W, the OM/BIL or OM's W/sis again...I want you to work on this first. Write to us what it is that YOU want to do. Write down what you will and will not accept in your life. Write down what are your strengths as a person and what are your weaknesses? Write down what you are your Love Kindlers (needs) in a marriage. Write down what you think your WIFE'S kindlers (needs) are. Write your Love Extinguishers--what you did that contributed to your wife's unhappiness in the marriage (being honest--not her really negative view). Write down what you think her Love Extinguishers were. Write down the type of man you would LIKE to be (man, father, husband). Write all this from the point of view of "husband" in general, not husband to your current wife only. Just, philosophically, romantically, etc. what would be the ideal to which you'd like to strive. Then, tell us about your plan to become that man. Not by changing others or making them do something...but what specifically are you going to work on and change about you?

3) Finally, are you able to see that you actually are controlling? You are trying to make/tell/convince/get your wife to do what you want her to do. You are wanting to talk to the OM/BIL in order to get him to do what you want him to do. You talk to your sis to get her to fix her marriage your way and get her to do what you want HER to do. Disbelief the only person you actually can control is YOU. That means you can change you, and you can make yourself behave and even think differently--but you spend so much energy trying to make others do what you want that you don't work on YOU at all! 

One of the reasons your marriage is in trouble is that you don't see that you're trying to "make" others do things. You think it's right but they are not part of you--they are completely separate individuals who may or may not think your way is okay with them. Your sis may have an entirely different way to "fix" her marriage and it's HERS so it doesn't have to be your way. Yes, I personally believe the Affaircare method is the best way to do it but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't disagree with me and have their own mighty fine way! The point is this: How much do you like it if I try to force you to do something you deep down don't really want to do? How about if you tell me, "I really don't want to do this" and I still try to manipulate things and circumstances so you have to? Does that make you want to defend yourself and kind of rebel? Or maybe pull away and struggle so you can do as you see fit? Right now three people are doing exactly that--your Wife, your BIL and your sister!

So work on YOU and purposely choose to control yourself and deliberately choose to ACT in a different way right now. Okay? Okay


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## Affaircare

By the way--it does sound like your wife is not letting go of the affair and she's the one who's continuing to pursue it. One reason we recommend No Contact is because it takes a complete break and some time after that break to get through the withdrawal before she'll be able to really work on the marriage again. So that's why, for a while, your sis and her hubby would live their lives and you and your wife would live your lives --as long as there actually is NO CONTACT she has a chance of mourning and getting over it. 

HOWEVER take a look at this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/19558-my-ea-still-has-pulse.html In this thread MsLonely keeps acting like "her feelings just will not die down" and saying stuff like they must be star-crossed lovers because no matter how hard she tries, she can't stop the feelings, etc. But take a look at how HARD she's working to keep it alive! 

This might be a glimpse into your wife's head.


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## disbelief

Okay I will make me time to do that ............Thank you again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Excellent! Several deep breaths. Pray or meditate. Then off to the homework.  You can do this, disbelief.


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## disbelief

Like I said I will do that. But her is my Ws mind. She said earlier I am not done with it (the A) I know how I feel I don't know how OM feels we have always talked and if I want to answer a txt email I will if I want to send one I will yoj want to know how OM feels u ask him or his spouse. My w is composing a message for om spouse or maybe all three of us

I said ok and left the room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Remember, she's angry with herself and focusing on the easy way out which is D. My wife did the same thing until she saw ME changing to try and address some of her issues with me. She couldn't understand why I was so tenacious and wouldn't give up, she felt she didn't deserve me. In your WS case, she is still holding to hope she might have the OM even if he has cut it off - greiving like the death of a best friend. She also having the same feeling my wife was about not being worthy of you. So anything she says will be an attempt to force you to give up because she can't stand the guilt and shame caused by what she did. Remember that is black paint she will use at this point. My wife and I went over the lovebusters questionaire she filled out while at this stage. Now she says she sees thing differently and sees that I am trying to change the way I react and being more sensitive to how she feels when I do react the wrong way. When Affair care tells you to focus on you, it's hard but imperative to show your wife you can makes things better. She may not respond at all or even respond negatively, but it will be getting through. The homework he gave you will force you to consider what the future could hold in the best case possible and that should be your goal. Not why or what she's doing. Have the wisdom to change the things you can and quit trying to change the things you can't change.


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## Affaircare

> Remember, she's angry with herself and focusing on the easy way out which is D. My wife did the same thing until she saw ME changing to try and address some of her issues with me.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Yep You got it!



> When Affair care tells you to focus on you, it's hard but imperative to show your wife you can makes things better. She may not respond at all or even respond negatively, but it will be getting through. The homework *he *gave you will force you to consider what the future could hold in the best case possible and that should be your goal. Not why or what she's doing. Have the wisdom to change the things you can and quit trying to change the things you can't change.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: 
Oh, 8yearscheating... I am a girl. My Dear Hubby, Tanelorn is the "he" in our marriage. But I'll take it as a compliment that I speak with authority. How's that?


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## disbelief

Im listening thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz

Affaircare said:


> Hey Disbelief I have a couple of quick clarifications to make:
> 
> 1) No one is telling you that you can not talk to your sister. After all, if you divorce and/or she divorces you two WILL be siblings. What we are saying is that you promised your wife 100% of your affection and loyalty--and she made a similar promise to her husband (the BIL/OM). So your #1 loyalty is to your WIFE, not your sister.


Actually, you did say that. His first loyalty is to his disloyal spouse, sure. However, his sister is going to be the biggest advocate for ending his wife's infidelity with her husband. 



Affaircare said:


> Right now, due to all that's going on, you may need to be willing to end contact with your sister for the good of your marriage and her marriage. That doesn't mean you've done something wrong or that she has--but rather that your loyalty is to your WIFE and so for the honor of your wife and marriage, in order to really end this A, you two (you and your sis) agree to not be in each other's lives for a little while. Okay does that make sense?


You now saying both to end contact and to an ease off of contact for awhile. 

I think sometimes you don't read over what you post.

I'm being a stickler on this because of the mixed message.


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## Affaircare

> Actually, you did say that. His first loyalty is to his disloyal spouse, sure. However, his sister is going to be the biggest advocate for ending his wife's infidelity with her husband.


Here's where the tangle takes place. The sister has two roles: OM/BIL's wife...and disbelief's sister. Yes, in a different situation where the OM is someone else's spouse (not from the family) what can happen is that the Loyal Spouse (LS) and the OP's Spouse can work together and compare notes, etc. But in that situation, the temptation can be really strong for the LS to get emotionally attached to the OP's Spouse--so it's just good sense to tell the LS to protect themselves from even the appearance of evil. Further, when everyone is not in one family, it's a little easier to see that the OP and their spouse are responsible for their own marriages. It may be a bad choice but the OP and their spouse CAN choose to ignore it and hope it goes away! It's not the LS's duty to save the OP's marriage! But it absolutely IS the LS's duty to save their own marriage. Thus the clean break with No Contact is best, cleanest, etc. In the example where the OP is not in the family, as the Loyal goes through the emotional turmoil of an affair, it would be normal/reasonable for him to speak with his siblings and get some support from them. 

HOWEVER...In THIS particular, specific situation, with sis having two roles (sister and OM's Spouse) both she and disbelief may be in the position of having to choose which of the two relationships is the priority right now. She has made a promise to her husband and her duty is to him and her marriage. Disbelief has made a promise to his wife and his duty is to his wife and his marriage. Thus, one of the costs of the affair may be that disbelief and his sister may have to reach the agreement that they can not be in each other's lives at least for a time--to give their respective marriages time to recover! Thus although he might have turned to her for emotional support as his sister (and likewise she might turn to him as her brother)...because it is the BIL/SIL who HAD the affair, in order to have the best chance of recovery they may be in the position to have to agree to not turn to each other but to turn to other friends, other siblings or to a pastor or mentor instead. 

Furthermore, yes as the OM's Spouse she might have been somewhat helpful in comparing notes--but she's not going to be able to "make" the affair end anymore than disbelief can. That's actually where the issue is! No one can "make" another person do anything. I can not make YOU do anything. I can try to manipulate the situation so you "have to" do what you don't want to--but they you'll resent me. The benefit--saying "I see a text do you?" (yes or no)--does not outway the COST of keeping the infidels in contact through the "family grapevine."



> You now saying both to end contact and to an ease off of contact for awhile.
> 
> I think sometimes you don't read over what you post.
> 
> I'm being a stickler on this because of the mixed message.


Actually that makes a lot of sense and I'm glad you brought that up. In real life it would be ideally best if disbelief and his wife never, EVER, *EVER *saw the OM again under any circumstance. That would give them the best chance of recovering and building a happy, loving marriage. So that would be an ideal toward which they would shoot. However, here's real life: they are all in one family. Disbelief is most likely not going to go his whole life without seeing his sister or ever talking to her again. Now to be a stickler I'd advise, "The cost of your wife having an affair is losing your sister." But I don't see that being very realistic, do you? 

Thus I would suggest that disbelief and his sister say, "We are going to take one year with absolutely no contact between you or me, your spouse or my spouse" and just focus on making a clean break and working on their own marriages. I believe they could make some progress if they weren't in any contact. Then after the year is expired, at some point disbelief and his sister would probably want to consider that only HE and HER contact each other, maybe reconnect at a family get-together, something. It's not ideal but the fact is, it is realistic to think at some point he'll want to talk to his sister.


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## 8yearscheating

I agree no contact is critical with the OM. However, disbeliefs WS is not ready for that. If the NC letter is not from her and her heart, it will mean nothing. So pushing for this at this point is not a good idea. Letting the WS know that the NC is the next required step to move toward the future that disbelief wants, that is the only thing he can do. If she wrote a letter right now, my guess is the WS would be right back at it and possibly more underground so that disbelief can't detect it. That is what happened with my wife. When she knew I was tracking her, both physically and through phone records, she went and bought another cell phone with cash with the bill sent to her work and from a different company. At that point, I was totally in the dark as to what she was doing. SHE wasn't ready for a NC letter and my attempt to get her send one fell on deaf ears (fog). She did eventually agree to one when she had finally made up her mind to try and reconcile. I made sure she wrote it only giving her guidance on what I thought were critical points that had to be made - this was MY need for the letter. Can post the final version when disbelief AND his wayward spouse are ready. 

For now, the NC letter needs to set aside until SHE is ready. Pushing for one only adds to the stress level his WS is experiencing. I know NC is the main goal. I think he has already made that clear. Time, changes in himself to address her issues, and monitoring are all he can do. A painful waiting game in my experience.

Keep up the active listening and holding your comments disbelief. MY IC told me that was the common issue with all men and women. Men want to fix things and use logic to do it. When a woman really wants to be heard and understood ONLY - not fixed and "controlled" which to my wife made her feel like I didn't value her feelings and position - again "control" when I would tell her what she might consider or do. My intention was not to control which confused the crap out of me when she said I was controlling her. Once I understood this basic premise and listened actively only, she began to feel that I valued her and her feelings. This starts adding more positives in your love bank with her. It sounds as if your trying very hard to do this and again, while you may not be seeing the results a lot yet, it is being noticed by your wife. GREAT JOB, keep it up.

Keep the faith and hope disbelief. You'll get where you to go!


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## Powerbane

Great post 8yrs! Totally agree with the active listening. Sometimes a woman just wants us to listen without trying to fix it. She just wants us to try and understand what she is thinking and for us to accept what is in her mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Powerbane said:


> Great post 8yrs! Totally agree with the active listening. Sometimes a woman just wants us to listen without trying to fix it. She just wants us to try and understand what she is thinking and for us to accept what is in her mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rt now I don't feel like trying at all I emotionally wiped. All her statements about wanting out are catching up with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Disbelief, what sort of relationship do you have with your sister? Is it close and affectionate, open and honest or distant and out of touch kind of thing.

Do you feel the need to protect your sister and comply with her wishes about the affair to retain the relationship you have between you? In a way are you protecting your sister?

If that is the case then the complexity of your situation really ramps up.

If you are not looking inside you then look inside you and don’t forget to take care of yourself. In troubled times like these I found great solace, help and comfort inside churches when they were very quite. I’m not a religious person per se by any means but I felt it was my shelter from the storm around me. I’d walk in, the storm would abate and I found a quietness and solitude there that I desperately needed. I’d spend an hour there, just letting peace and tranquillity enter me again. It helped me big time. I’m not into praying but I had the thought if I did pray what would I pray for? I found the things that came into my mind where the most important things in my life. In that way my prayers became my guide out of the storm.

I did have the thought that if I can’t take care of myself I can’t take care of anyone let alone the ones I love and who really need me. That’s why people are saying take care of yourself. You need some “time out”. Maybe quite churches will work for you like they did for me. This really is heart and soul stuff you are going through.


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## Tanelornpete

I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but no one, as far as I can tell, having read through the posts on here, has advised Disbelief to have his wife initiate No Contact. Nor has anyone told him that he must insist she write such a letter yet. I may have missed some line somewhere where the inference was that the time is NOW to do such a thing, but I am pretty thorough. What has been argued is that Disbelief needs to withdraw from contact with the Other Man and his wife; there needs to be some separation signified, some distinction between persons, and some deliberate, rational, intentional action on his part, in order to call his wife's attention to the marriage. 

It would be nice for his wife to cut off all contact, but that's a wish for the solution, not the immediate cure. On the other hand, if the Other Man's wife (Disbelief's sister) and her husband are serious about THEIR marriage, there must be *NO* contact between her husband and Disbelief's wife. The fact that this man is still in contact is perpetuating the fantasy in Disbelief's wife's mind that there is something going on. Personally, I believe that the Other Man is also hoping that there is still a way to get into her pants, and is trying to keep that avenue open. If he cared about his wife at all, he'd knock it off.

And the suggestion was for Disbelief to notify him that if he contacted again, there would be a mass exposure in order for the rest of the family to know what is going on. But that is not for Disbelief to decide - that is for the Other Man's wife! Disbelief needs to withdraw from THAT family's business and work on his own.

As for Disbelief's actions (actually _re_-actions: he has _yet_ to do anything even remotely pro-active) - he needs to be working on himself. And yes, the reflective listening is HUGELY important in any possible recovery. That, too, however, is _pro-active_ behavior and requires that he change the way he does things.

Disbelief, the reason you are 'emotionally' wiped (actually not emotional at all - it's entirely physical) is because you are still dwelling in the Land of Expectations, and spending all your energy _willing_ people to do things _your_ way - which simply does not work.


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## disbelief

Im listening had some quiet time today. AFEH my relationship with her is practical help each other out when needed not super close typically opposite in opinions. But respectful of each other cousins are close.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jenaa

I think the sooner she leaves the better. In this situation, all your loyalty belongs to your sister, not the woman practically stalking her husband and spitting in your face while she does it. Gad, maybe she'll come around someday, but no sense coddling her in the meantime. It's outrageous. She's shown zero remorse.


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Im listening had some quiet time today. AFEH my relationship with her is practical help each other out when needed not super close typically opposite in opinions. But respectful of each other cousins are close.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



With close, immediate and extended family involved you’ll probably have split loyalties? If you do that would explain why you’ve been even more “all over the place” than normal. It does come through in your posts.

Maybe it really is time for you to “retreat”. At some time in our life we discover and accept that there are things within our life that we simply have no influence on let alone any control of.

The 180 at DivorceBusters is like a “retreat”. It’s a letting go of any form of control and any “hope” of direct influence of the situation. It’s a recognition that people in our lives will do what they want to do no matter how we try and influence or control their behaviour. That their decisions are theirs to make, not ours to make for them.

This phase in your life is not going to get fixed in 24 hours. You know that now. The “letting go” of attempts to control and influence can be exceedingly difficult but it is exceptionally important. Especially to your personal growth. Maybe think of it as “retreat and grow strong”.

In time this phase of your wife’s life will fade. But I feel it’s something she must work out for herself and she is exceptionally determined to do that. I also feel the more you try and stop her the more determined she will become. In a way you are feeding her fire. I think you’ve seen that as well.

So why not let her know that you have let her go. Tell her that you want to give her space to find out what she really values and appreciates in her life and wish her well on her journey. Then leave her to walk her path through her forest of life by herself. That is also what the 180 is all about.

I can assure you while she’s taking that walk you and your children will be on her mind. Let her know your door is always open if and when she’s ready for reconciliation. She will see that at the moment as a little beacon of light in her dark world. If she finds that the grass on the other side of the hill is barren, the light of your beacon will shine all the more for her. That’s one of the reasons why you need to stay strong for yourself and for your children. If the grass is fertile then your beacon will fade in her mind. Going by the choices she's made so far, I can't see the latter happening.

Bob


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## disbelief

She has shown a tiny bit of remorse seems more like self pity and depression good possibility she filed d papers today. They r not where they have been. Speculation. Time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Very good chance she has the pamphlets still but not the papers. Doing more in the house than she has in a month or two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

AFEH said:


> With close, immediate and extended family involved you’ll probably have split loyalties? If you do that would explain why you’ve been even more “all over the place” than normal. It does come through in your posts.
> 
> Maybe it really is time for you to “retreat”. At some time in our life we discover and accept that there are things within our life that we simply have no influence on let alone any control of.
> 
> The 180 at DivorceBusters is like a “retreat”. It’s a letting go of any form of control and any “hope” of direct influence of the situation. It’s a recognition that people in our lives will do what they want to do no matter how we try and influence or control their behaviour. That their decisions are theirs to make, not ours to make for them.
> 
> This phase in your life is not going to get fixed in 24 hours. You know that now. The “letting go” of attempts to control and influence can be exceedingly difficult but it is exceptionally important. Especially to your personal growth. Maybe think of it as “retreat and grow strong”.
> 
> In time this phase of your wife’s life will fade. But I feel it’s something she must work out for herself and she is exceptionally determined to do that. I also feel the more you try and stop her the more determined she will become. In a way you are feeding her fire. I think you’ve seen that as well.
> 
> So why not let her know that you have let her go. Tell her that you want to give her space to find out what she really values and appreciates in her life and wish her well on her journey. Then leave her to walk her path through her forest of life by herself. That is also what the 180 is all about.
> 
> I can assure you while she’s taking that walk you and your children will be on her mind. Let her know your door is always open if and when she’s ready for reconciliation. She will see that at the moment as a little beacon of light in her dark world. If she finds that the grass on the other side of the hill is barren, the light of your beacon will shine all the more for her. That’s one of the reasons why you need to stay strong for yourself and for your children. If the grass is fertile then your beacon will fade in her mind. Going by the choices she's made so far, I can't see the latter happening.
> 
> Bob


I am sitting in a quiet room at the church alone journaling going to do my homework. 1 week til xmass quite sure she filed. If she reveals I will post. I have been giving her that open door she is just taking the long way to get a place. The last couple months has been like I am D already. 

I think rt now I can tell her I am open to reconcilliation. But by the gime she is ready. I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Hold on disbelief, I was where you are now and know how your feeling. Hold on to that shred of hope. The things you say make me believe she is turning back toward you very slowly, still turning back though. Have hope. Work on you and what you can do to be the better choice.

Keep your head up. Go do something YOU like to do.


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## disbelief

Thanks for the encouragement affaicares assignment is also really making me think u would think my ic would have done that. So maintain hope through D papers? Still speculating maybe able to confirm later today. Act as if things can be good?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well in refrence to my freak out over the communication from om the other day this is what I know. OM why can't I say goodbye my W: because its permanent. Nothing else signifigant no lovey dovey let's meet up stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Ignore it all on the OM stuff. Give it time and don't worry about the D papers - my wife was starting that too at one point and she turned around. It's not over till it's over. Keep your head up and focus on what you want for the future and changing yourself to be the better choice. It's very hard, I know but stay focused.


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## disbelief

I will try I just kinda wanted to put it out there saw it for myself seems my W is stuck. If or when she files it will be without my signature and the law says the earliest a hearing can be is 6 months. Hopefully get some me time tonight
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Let the D hang for 6 mos and forget all about it. There is plenty of time for that later. Go out with boys and a designated driver and have a good time. Even chase - just don't catch -some tail. It will do wonders for your self esteem. Just remember - no catching any. Get a sitter so your not time constrained and come home to sleeping children. And do not tell the wife where your going.


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## disbelief

At the rate she's going she will be purchasing mid jan, ok the whole not telling her actually has had a negative effect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Not telling her what?


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## 8yearscheating

She knows you want to stay together and that you don't agree with purchasing another place...correct?


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## disbelief

Not telling her where I go apparently tweaks her. She was in a different mood because she did file yesterday. Question is when will I be served still have 6 Months. She does know I want to fix it and I want her to stay. The actions. Will speak louder than word now. She needed something like this for her mortgage. She wants to seperate no matter. She is gonna do what she chooses I see that. I told her I would not stop her from getting the house but I let her know I want her home and to work on it.

It explains why she drank alot last night.

So do I get her a xmas present.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why would you? She doesn't want you.

Let her experience what Christmas is like without you.


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## Eli-Zor

You are still in Plan A so you behave like you are in Plan A . Buy a present for her, show her you love her.

At what point are you going to tell your parents that she is divorcing you?

If you get served are you going to tell your sister, I ask because you need to know what to do. 

Will you be opposing the divorce if your saying she has submitted the papers you had best have legal advice ready
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I will address all those things I have not actually been served yet. I went to the courthouse because I suspected they were very helpful looked it up and all I could be served anytime the earliest a hearing can be held is 6. Months
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Why would you? She doesn't want you.
> 
> Isn't that plan A and if a guest came I would have an extra gift under the tree? If she doesn't want me that will eventually be finalized I can only imagine it is worse that I am being nice. On her concience
> 
> Let her experience what Christmas is like without you.


She will be home xmas as far as she knows I don't know and I will suffer for my children.


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## disbelief

Eli-Zor said:


> You are still in Plan A so you behave like you are in Plan A . Buy a present for her, show her you love her.
> *OK*
> 
> At what point are you going to tell your parents that she is divorcing you?
> 
> I will figure that out it will start with Dad though.
> 
> If you get served are you going to tell your sister, I ask because you need to know what to do.
> 
> Yup Hmmmm been thinking about that too tell her he finds out dont tell my W tells him although OM still swears to his M reconfirmed today as well as the fact that calls between me and sis tweak him
> 
> Will you be opposing the divorce if your saying she has submitted the papers you had best have legal advice ready
> 
> 
> Yes touched base with a lawyer again today plan to check with a couple others with good reps.
> 
> 
> And continued soul searching with my homework. Either way I have a lifetime of parenting with her I do not repeat do not want this to turn Bitter nasty evil.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You know, I get that you're in Plan A, but this whole situation is so screwed up, I don't think a normal Plan A can work here. Why? Because NO ONE is doing anything to stop the affair! Or at least the dribbling left-overs of the affair.

The way I understand it, Plan A means you treat her great, BUT - and that is a BIG BUT - you make it very clear you will not tolerate any cheating going on under your roof. No texting, no gifting, no anything. 

IDK, this just seems all so messed up. You won't talk to your sister. You won't talk to your parents. You won't stand up against the texting. You give her a great Plan A so she's getting ALL her needs met by you AND OM...and yet you know she's already filed and you're pretending you don't know?

Why don't you just send the kids away, sit her down, and hash this all out, once and for all, so you don't have a heart attack over it all during Christmas? And let her know that if this is what she wants, the family is going to know WHY. Then let her move forward.

I don't get the pretending. What am I missing?


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## disbelief

Do you have 4 kids under 11 just before xmas?

Like I have said he said she said if I show phone calls and txt as evidence. I have made clear to her the contacting him still is unacceptable. Guess that's why she filed the papers. She has a clear plan to move out she just doesn't realize I know I will do what I have to after xmas would u want dday the week before your birthday ya see I am protecting my kids. And it will be done right when they r told so on and so forth they top my list over me over her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> Do you have 4 kids under 11 just before xmas?
> 
> Like I have said he said she said if I show phone calls and txt as evidence. I have made clear to her the contacting him still is unacceptable. Guess that's why she filed the papers. She has a clear plan to move out she just doesn't realize I know I will do what I have to after xmas would u want dday the week before your birthday ya see I am protecting my kids. And it will be done right when they r told so on and so forth they top my list over me over her!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well done. Being true to your core values preserves your dignity, self-respect, self-esteem and self-confidence while the world around sometimes goes crazy. You sound well centred and that’s really good.


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## Affaircare

Disbelief~

Just a quick note. I understand your goal is sort of "get through Christmas" and that at this point the OM/BIL does seem to be trying to return to his marriage whereas your W is the one who's sort of "stuck" in affairland...or at least she doesn't want to let it go right now. 

So one of the issues now is going to be what she perceives as mixed messages. You say you love her but then yell at her...or you get her a present or do something nice...but then do something mean like tell everyone about the affair...you say you want to stay married...but you're not even her "friend" much less a "lover." So this probably has her rollercoastering just as much as you--one minute she thinks maybe we can stay married, and then next minute she can't stand you! 

Thus, I would suggest doing your best to present one, consistent message to her. For now, just leave OM/BIL and OMW/sis out of it and focus on the assignment I gave you. Then as much as you can--more than you can!--present this one consistent message to your wife: "I am not going to help an affair or a divorce happen, but I am your husband, and I'm not giving up for some time. I am going to be about helping me be a better man, father, and husband and I am going to be about being your friend." Then you can treat her the same way that you'd treat the mailman or a librarian--nicely but not really all that romantic!  If you would buy the babysitter a gift, then get her a gift that is neutral but nice (like socks or a scarf). 

And every day, when she starts trying to pick a fight or is crabby you can just say, "Sorry I choose not to do that. I'm about becoming a better man, father and husband and I'm your friend." If she continues just neutrally disengage and go to another room. Meanwhile you keep up with the assignments and pick one nice holiday thing to do with your kids. Watch "The Grinch" or "Polar Express" with them. Make cookies with them and let them get flour on their noses. Let her decide if she'll join in or not. 

Finally, I know one person who's D-Day was the day after Christmas--which was his birthday. Guess what? He survived. So just think about that, okay?


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## disbelief

Getting through christmas too was a goal because I really had hoped she would've swayed back my way already.out with the kids now. They r happy. Maybe even xmas will effect her mindset. Who knows. She's like the wind an angry wind. I have been consistently kind and tolerant. My ic does not understand how I do it I don't know how I do it. I guess I always consider the greater good and the long long road of life ahead
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

The future is what is important and where you meed to focus - what you want. Let her follow if she so desires. Forget about her filing, doesn't matter for 6 months. forget about the other man and focus on you. Enjoy your kids and ask her if she wants to join in the festivities. Keep the topic off anything D or OM related for the holidays and be the better choice. By her something nice. Ignore her ups and downs other than listening if she wants to tell you whats bothering her.

Keep it light and non problem.


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## disbelief

Affaircare,
Gotcha and thanks again.


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## 8yearscheating

I hate to say it, I understand she doesn't like it when you go somewhere and don't tell her. I'm sure you don't like it either - especially right now. So tell her going out with the boys. If she complains thats not enough information, ask her "and you tell me everything I need to know?" drop it and walk away. It's time for her to see you are taking care of yourself. If she wants to be involved with you, she needs to give AND take.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> I hate to say it, I understand she doesn't like it when you go somewhere and don't tell her. I'm sure you don't like it either - especially right now. So tell her going out with the boys. If she complains thats not enough information, ask her "and you tell me everything I need to know?" drop it and walk away. It's time for her to see you are taking care of yourself. If she wants to be involved with you, she needs to give AND take.


True,
the happy medium, with kids I can't just go anyways. I was just thinking too if she was so posotive on the D. She would have done up the seperation agreement and everything else so she could have filed and pushed for an earlier court date. Who knows just my mind wandering maybe she really doesn't know what she wants I am starting to not know what I want,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

She just looks so mad stomping around like a teenager. I want to yell at her, but kids....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Don't let it affect you, smile even though it is hard, be strong and stay on course. It will enrage her and over time she will see you are the better person.


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## disbelief

Thanks I am just feeling fed up. She proves how messed up she is by how much she keeps spending less time with the kids. I am waiting to be served then I suppose if my heart stays in it we will see what 6 months brings doing alot of thinking watched a movie with the kids last night while she was at her sisters and they told her that. Morning and bedtime my worst time. Reread dr harleys forum on exposure and now carrot and stick and plan A alot of info. When I look at my W I truly see her as messed up. She sounds fine on the phone with the kids but she keeps challenging me with questions referencing it being better with her gone or crashed into a tree her words. Ugh yeah I am venting. Wont see much of each other nxt couple days due to schedules so .......thanks all still working on my assignment between kid stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Do remember she leaves she pays half the bills, do not make it easy for her to move on and do not sign or agree a separation. Make sure she understands you will be fighting for the marriage. 

For the future: any separation document must include the words adultery on her part, this is something she must understand as well.


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## disbelief

I touched base with a lawyer again and if/when I get served I will counter petition she put irreconcilable diff. No fault. I disagree. I think it could be fixed and there is a greater fault the going outside the M.
if she decides to recommit I found a local councillor who is pro marriage spoke with him he deals alot with infidelity. Dont know how I feel at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I am extremly grouchy this am. And thinking. I know she filed D papers and to have me served but she had to goto the sherrifs to initiate that. So she's either holding off or I will be served this week. Do I then tell her to get out when I get the papers or plan A it since a hearing can't be held for 6 months. 
My next thought included in what I want is why do us BS go on like this?????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Carry on with Plan A, if she moves out it is her choice alone. 

You make sure she understands she pays half the finances, have you told her this or have you already given her what she wants?

What I do not understand is you are scared of the divorce papers yet you continue to support her by not telling those people who would support you the most. She is very scared what people will think of her that is why she is chasing divorce. Her image is more important to her than you or the children 

Once you are served she has no intention of returning to the marriage, she wants to buy a house , "says in 6 moths who knowns it will be an investment". Sorry if you believe that the only person you are fooling is yourself. Next she will force a minimum 50 50 custody of the children and the likelihood is you will pay her child support. 


As you are certain she has filed then start getting support from the family and do not care about your BIL , people must know he is fully responsible for his part, he is not and will never be your friend


You Plan A her 

You tell her you will never accept the divorce

You will fight for your marriage 

You will not accept full financial responsibility, she pays half the bills even if she moves out. She starts paying half the bills now. 

You do not facilitate her leaving by supporting her in any what that breaks the family and marriage.


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## disbelief

I guess that's my confusion do I plan a rt up until divorce is final I do not plan to make it simple and I will fight and continue to make clear to her that more could be done to save this. I don't think she is at that point yet maybe some tiny signs hard to tell. My mind is spinning because I am so grouchy this am but this also helps me deal with a situation when it materializes I am actually not afraid of her leaving or the D at this point I have been like a single dad the past couple months anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

You plan A her as long as you can handle it, Plan A is very stressful on you as the Betrayed Spouse. 

Set a date in your mind for Plan B, Plan A her even if she leaves the home say for example to the end of Jan or Feb then switch to Plan B. 

Your Plan A must be stunning, she must see you are confident, can move out on your own, can look after the children, you fill her emotional needs (EN's). 

When you switch to Plan B it is to cut her off cold so she misses those EN's that she wants and she is then desirous to make contact and be with you. An OM in the picture limits the effect of Plan A especially if he is filling some of her EN's, thus my insistence on making his life uncomfortable and keeping him away from your wife.



Remember what Plan A is:----


The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a storm created by your wife

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected wave of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for your wife's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the head of your wife.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financial security of the marriage.

Standing up to infidelity for the good of the family.




Do not ever tell your wife what your Plan A or B is you just do them.


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## disbelief

I found that MB forum so essentially its all the nice stuff I always did minus any love busters and adding some improvements so long as I can stand it and feel I want to continue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Don't forget to step back every so often to allow yourself to breathe.


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## disbelief

Wow I have to vent this it is like she is in withdrawal again. She fessed up to filing the D papers. Not yet with sheriff. She is going off about lotso stuff me...... calm thanks to past forum advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

What kind of stuff is she going off about? You keep mentioning going off the road into a tree. IS this a regular threat to commit suicide? If so, you need to get her to her MD or at least call him and tell him she is threating suicide. Do you use the same doctor for yourself? Could you?


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## disbelief

No I only mentioned the tree once it was getging icy that night and it was a wise crack back. I am not a doc but have medical experience if she truly presents. That way I know what action to take. It was just us two home and I asked if there was anything we needed to talk about. She started it spiralled to alot of M stuff things that she didn't stand her ground on shortly before the A there fore I got my way because she did not make clear she didn't want something or what I saw as compromise she saw as me getging my way. Lotso marriage stuff a little A stuff. Saying we can't recover because I will hold it over her how she is tired and done with everyon how she wants to tell everyone about the A and stop living a secret I said ok let me know when.
I let her know I can get through the A but no more of their continued contact by however they r doing it. She is not suicidal I let her ranr because she bottles it all and it finally gives me insight. Are they done who knows will they completly stop contact doubt it. This electronic age. 6 months from the time I am served alot of soul searching and discovery to be had probably by both of us. We use the same doctor but he can't force her to take meds her IC should be picking up on clinical depression. Of course she only acts this way around me I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

If you use the same doc, you have every right to see him yourslef and explain what is going on and thta youa re concerned about her depression. IC's can't rpescribe medication and often won't bring it up beyond a suggestion. Her doctor can request she come in and talk with her with out letting her know you and he talked. I've done that more than once with our joint doc. You also seem to be in the dumps a lot lately and for good reason. Don't be afraid to get a prescription for yourself.


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## disbelief

I will consider that. I have taken care of myself in that regard thanks 8. I am starting to balance out but ya know I still have my days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

It's just fog babble. NOTHING about you or what's good for you. Just ignore her. Offer her a cookie.


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## disbelief

Just a quick note OM wife told me OM finally realized he had to choose between his W and family or a staying "friends" with my W. He is choosing his family. OM W blocked my W's number on his phone. We cannot check email OM is not yet willing to be 100% transparent. OMW has not asked in a while either. My W is no where near that point. From what OMW said reality is setting in on OM. I am not trying to control whag anyone is doing trying to make sure myself and my kids r good all have been sick...... fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sounds promising.


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## 8yearscheating

Stay the course and hold on to that last shred of hope. Give it time to sink with your WS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Keep on track, it is you that ultimately decides what happens. Your wife will have all sorts of foggy behaviours, you must maintain a clear mind. Assume the worst so there are no surprises. 

Be strong for yourself and your children


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## disbelief

Thanks all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Do remind the OM's wife that if her husband is not fully transparent he is still in the affair as he is hiding something. 

Privacy is going to the bathroom, secrecy is deceit. 

Best wishes to you.


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## disbelief

Did so more she said she was gonna be more pushy after xmas. If she pushes to much he shuts down too. Balancing act. But he freely tells her this stuff. Just like shock of the morning mine txtd to say she was going to. Xx store before coming home. But yet she filed for divorce......but I have not been served. ....I am at whatever......time for exercise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I am starting to doubt the fog and just believe she has decided she's done, I mean I will plan A it for a while see if she actually gets those D papers to me but man if she can avoid any sort of contact with me verbal visual definitly physical there's been none of that she avoids it. Dont know how much longer I can play this game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> Dont know how much longer I can play this game.


I think that may well be the key here - both of you are playing games so busily that your lives are crumbling around you. Just once you should call her bluff. She's called your enough.


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## disbelief

Ok but I am not sure what bluff im calling really wish she would display all this behavior for her IC. I mean she's on the phone with real estate agent in a room she didn't expect me to walk into and she has admitted to filing. I have the docket number thats not a bluff. so isn't it just work plan A for a while I think if I try to call her out she'll walk out. Which is bothering me less. Because she says she just needs to get away. But she hasn't come up with a seperation agreement actually gotten a loan or gotten D papers in my hand even though she filed. Is this passive aggressive. And I am still trying to figure out what I want. And whenevr she discusses moving out she says. Its so we wont hate and resent each other. And someday or 6 months who knows what feelings may be you never know. Like I said I feel like whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

You know, just because she got papers and filled them out, that doesn't mean she filed. In order to file, she has to take them down to the courthouse and pay a filing fee (usually a couple hundred dollars). From the date of filing she has a limited number of days in which to "serve" you (have a sheriff give it to you or send the papers return receipt) and that's usually 30 days. If she doesn't serve you in 30 days, she'd have to start over again. 

So just because she got papers don't assume she's really filed. You should be able to go to a courthouse and ask if there is a filing and what date it was filed if there is one.


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## disbelief

She filed I went to the courthouse and confirmed when i had my suspicions last week. Not served yet maybe I'll get lucky and get past 30 days. She has no thoughts of reconcilliation she just expressed that we keep ending up arguing and she finally said thats why she doesn't want to talk and she doesn't want to give me false hope. She said we have nothing to talk about I said lets talk about the house (she wants to buy) and I got a mean spirited why so you can gloat over how bad of shape it is. Finally we ended up talking like friends. Like we used to talk. No fighting no arguing just conversation. Not that I want her in that house but she talked. She just hasn't been talking. Divorced or married i still need to parent with her. I suppose the longer it takes her to move out the more chats we can have. I suppose I should avoid any R talk unless she brings it up. And in the meantime I remain cautiously suspicious. We are both not trusting each other at this point. I also told her I was going to a Divorce Cares group tomorrow she had no response. Maybe for the luck of the family she'll decide she wants to stay tonight she complained she didn't want to go back to the way things were, lotso stuff i didn't know bothered her so much, life/marriage stuff. And hopefully they (OM/W)are absolutly done contacting each other. Time will tell. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I agree you don't wan to pressure R but you should continue to let her know you love her and haven't given up on R. Let her know you will work to address her issues with the marriage and if there things she indicates a problem now, try to change them and point out to her are trying to change them. Also tell her your relationship will be different and better than before so it won't be the same old marriage and issues.


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## disbelief

After the nice conversation we ended up on a bad note unless time changes her mind she is done. Subtle signs she would want to fix biggest ones to go. She realizes she is angry and she wants us to get along in the long run. But her getting mad she told me what she wanted to have someone to talk to and not end up in an argument. Now I have to work on that. Any reminder last night that my door was still open she got frustrated, I made the mistake of asking a OM question I wasn't going to but she saw the look on my face and kept prying and realistically I wanted the answer. I want her to answer if she still contacts him by email and she will not answer staight foward. To me that is an answer. So it downward spiraled from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Plug away look after yourself. 

Do NOT enable her to have financial stability outside the marriage. Some woman take up to 6 months or more to come round, assuming the OM is out of the picture, which he is not.


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## disbelief

Thanks eli, at least their comm is reduced no cell contact and she is acting like the withdrawal signs again. Due to her occupation she can create her own financial stability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

You are the epitome of Rudyard Kipling's "If"!!!


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## disbelief

Intresting poem fits my persona actually makes me think thanks. Still feeling pointless to work this sitch. Although I have straight up told her to go ahead and leave. And I offered to do the quick D and she danced around it so ???????? Messed in the head or what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Take it day by day - I've heard it could take up to 6 months for her head to clear. If you want her back - just try to be the best you can and meet those needs she was getting from the OM. 

We're pulling for you.


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## disbelief

Very uneventful day with the W She was in a good mood before work possibly because she was leaving the house. By the way a working on me thing preparing for the worst I am attending a Divorce cares class. I told the W last night I was getting a sitter and going to a meeting she asked what the meeting was when I told her divorce cares she had absolutely no response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> And I offered to do the quick D and she danced around it so ???????? Messed in the head or what.


Dancing around it is part of the game I spoke of earlier. She plays with threats and fire, cries wolf over and over. But when the real deal comes along, what happens?


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## rome2012

Eli-Zor said:


> Some woman take up to 6 months or more to come round, assuming the OM is out of the picture.


Where did you get this from ???

And what is the average statistic on men ???

:smthumbup:


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete
Is the dancing game normal for the fog? Is it a females testing of does he really mean he's committed afer I screwed up so bad? Because the doors been open for her to leave I have not been stopping her. When I put the let take action now things out there she clams up. So I am no psych guy but that tells me she either doesn't really know what she wants or is trying to figure out if maybe she does want to stay?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

If she had truly made up her mind, she would be gone. Stick to self improvement and trying to address her complaints as well as ALWAYS using active listening when she talks. She won't show it, but will notice it. Don't cross bridges before you get to them. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words - both yours and hers.


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## jessi

Hi there, 
Just read through your story and I have to say I'm sorry you are here telling your story..........you sound like you are handling things very well, no one is perfect, we just do the best we can.
My husband was like your wife when I found out about the affair, he was convinced that our marriage was the reason he could let himself fall in love with someone else, and that separation/divorce was our only option.......
I did what you are doing, I stayed calm, tried to understand what he was going through, and I told him I loved him and that we could have a better marriage if we tried. He would have no part of it, so I took the bull by the horns and said okay you love someone else, fine, you are free to go.......I asked him to respect me while we still lived under the same roof......He said he wouldn't see her until we were living separately.............I then went to a lawyer drew up a separation agreement, we signed it, then I went to the bank set up my own accounts, credit cards, line of credit........all he had to do was move out, well you know what when they are the ones that actually have to make the move knowing that there decisions will be the ones that break up a family for an affair...........My husband when faced with the reality he didn't want to go to his new life, the fog had lifted, he ended things with the OW and started to be the husband he should have been all along.........
So my point is even when you think it's over It might not be, the fog has to lift before the thinking is right again.......they rewrite all the history for their own benefit...........The trick is letting it all play out and being patient, remember anything can be turned around at any point, even if you get served......you can always stop it, remarry........whatever a small bump, focus on the bigger picture for now.......yourself, your kids


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## disbelief

Thanks it took a while for everyone to get through my to my thick skull but I am playing it that way now. Shall we say I can see the forest for the trees I still have my homework from affaircare which has caused much deep thought. I am taking much better care of myself than my W is of her and I am taking care of the house and kids. At least when she is here it is obvious that she is in emotional pain. I wish we could go back in time and prevent that but I have this hand to play and we will give through recovery or divorce. My W has to decide her path hopefully before I decide to change mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

She sees that you are considering letting her go, and she did not want that! She may have wanted you to roll over and she would stay, on HER terms. Then the next time you hit a rocky patch or she wants you to jump thru hoops for her pleasure, all she has to do is threaten to walk again.
I may always be overly suspicious, and I do admit to an overactive imagination, but the way i see it, she sees that you are not going to play by HER rules, she has to regroup and think up some new ones. Personally, I like Jessi's strategy.


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## Tanelornpete

> Is the dancing game normal for the fog? Is it a females testing of does he really mean he's committed afer I screwed up so bad? Because the doors been open for her to leave I have not been stopping her. When I put the let take action now things out there she clams up.


This can be part of the 'fog' but it can also be part of a more 'normal' pattern in your marriage, carried to a new extreme - as Jessi points out, _make a threat, get a response....etc_ My guess is that this is more a means of control than a real threat to end your marriage: she can and could do that at any time. Talking about it is not the same as doing it.

It isn't that hard to leave the marriage: simple pack up and go. The endless looping of go...stay...go...stay...go...stay....etc... is a sign of a different plan in mind. Simply stay YOUR course and work on what you have to work on. Let her flounder around on her own, if she is threatening to destroy the family, then let her do that _all alone_. Get out of her game. 

And end yours! Not to be mean or anything, but saying 'I get it now...' over and over is not much different. The key is to actually 'get it' and then start living with that in mind - on a consistent basis!


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## disbelief

Thanks both, I think telling her I was going to a divorce class and offering the quicker divorce within the same hour may have shaken it up a bit. Sunday I also let her know that I could not put up with her contacting OM in any form in our house and somehow I would find out, maybe I wouldn't but so far I have.
I can't say I wont slip but I get it alot more now than a couple weeks ago and my head is more level and emotions stabilized so either way I will get through this my kids will be happy and loved and wether she wants to continue on her destructive path I have little control over. 
so getting out of her game, I was thinking that if in a month she was still doing this I would pick her up a lease agreement at the local condo and complete a seperation agreement, just a thought rt now. As much as I want to save this marriage she is no where close to it yet. I will not help destroy the family. I am starting to note some signs of stress in the kids after the class last night that wasthe topic. Only little things. We don't argue in front of them.
immediate goal : a happy xmass
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

You are slowly getting control of yourself. The pressure is going to mount on your wife as reality sinks in. Do not get your hopes up as she is still deep in the fog and who know what her next steps will be. 

Stay on track and keep focused on yourself and your children


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## disbelief

No hopes right now still preparing for the worst.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Hey disbelief~

You asked about "the game" and what the game is that you're playing etc. and I thought that maybe part of you is aware that there is a game being played, but another part of you doesn't see the part that you play in the game. 

For illustration purposes, and so you can see your own side, I don't actually call it a "game"...I call it a "dance." I use that term because when two people dance, one leads and one follows...person A steps forward, and to accommodate that person B steps back. If person A stepped forward and person B didn't step back--it would be a collision and not a dance! :lol: But it also really illustrates what's going on here. Every time your wife plays her game, she is taking the lead in the dance and stepping forward, and your side is that you actually dance with her and step back! Sometimes YOU try to take the lead in the dance and step forward, and she dances with you and steps back. Our job is to show you "Hey here is your dance step" and then to show you how to stop dancing altogether! That way, she can keep trying to take the lead and keep trying to step forward, and instead of stepping back you say "Sorry--I'm not doing this dance anymore. I choose something else." 

So here are a few examples of recent post where one or the other of you is trying to start a "dance" (former known as "playing a game"): 



> Is the dancing game normal for the fog? Is it a females testing of does he really mean he's committed afer I screwed up so bad? Because the doors been open for her to leave I have not been stopping her. When I put the let take action now things out there she clams up.


For this example, it's you that is taking the lead dance step. Your step is "I'll make her stop talking about leaving and divorce by suggesting that we take action" and her back step that you are expecting is "He actually wants to do it? I'll just clam up until he stops talking about it." NOTE TO SELF: this dancing is not one person necessarily being "controlling" but is more like "if I make this move or say this or that, usually in the past his/her reaction has been this and that's what I want to have happen." It doesn't quite rise to the level of manipulation but is more like after years together, this is the response I expect. 

To NOT dance this particular dance, you would take the time to decide what you really do want. Let's assume you really do want a spouse-partner who gives 100% of their affection and loyalty to only you...and nothing less. Thus, instead of making the dance step of suggesting action just so she'll be quiet about the divorce, you would make a statement about what you require. Is she willing to meet that requirement? No? Then the proposal to take action is motivated because that is truly what you want to do. You would not say the words aloud without actually meaning them and intending to enforce them. Make sense? 

Conversely, if she brings it up just get a certain reaction out of you, to stop doing this particular dance, you would say, "Sorry darling I'm not doing that anymore. If you make that kind of statement or threaten divorce, I suggest you be ready to back it up and enforce it like you mean it. I won't be doing that pushme-pullyou anymore. So is your stuff packed and you're moving out tonight? If not, stop bringing it up unless you are."



> ...telling her I was going to a divorce class and offering the quicker divorce within the same hour may have shaken it up a bit.


See the dancing here in this statement. You are going to the divorce class partly for your own good and to help you get through this...but you said it to her partly to "shake her up a bit." You took the lead dance step of mentioning a divorce class and a quicker divorce expecting her back step of being shaken up a bit. To stop this dance, you would say you had a meeting, she would say "What's the meeting?" and you would say "I would be happy to tell my wife who is honoring her vow and being transparently honest with me, but if we're divorcing it would no longer be your business. So which one are you?" 



> Any reminder last night that my door was still open she got frustrated, I made the mistake of asking a OM question I wasn't going to but she saw the look on my face and kept prying and realistically I wanted the answer.


Ah you are both dancing in this one! You took the lead step forward when you reminded her she could still choose the marriage knowing that usually results in her clamming up or getting mad...sort of picking at her wound. She stepped back by becoming frustrated. She danced! The she took the lead step forward by seeing a look on your face and prying--knowing you'd have a question or issue she could then use as her excuse to be even more angry. You danced back by giving into her prying and setting yourself up to be blamed for her anger. 

To stop these two dances, stop reminding her the door is still open. I'd recommend stating instead, "I expect a fully faithful spouse who'll give me 100% of her affection and loyalty and my patience is rapidly ending." See how that is just a statement of where you're at and she can have any kind of reaction she wants...it's irrelevant? You aren't trying to make her do anything or react a certain way...just saying where you're at. And for her, she sees that you have that look on your face and pries, to stop dancing you can say, "I know you're prying dear and I do not want to be blamed for how you feel so I'm choosing to not answer. " It's a sidestep of her step forward. 



> She has no thoughts of reconcilliation she just expressed that we keep ending up arguing and she finally said thats why she doesn't want to talk and she doesn't want to give me false hope.


This is her taking a lead step forward. She wants to initiate the dance and the hurt, so she says there's no hope, but she's kind of hoping you'll say there IS hope and your door is still open so she knows she still has her cake and can eat it too. So when she has no thoughts of reconciling, etc. to stop dancing you can say, "Oh I guess this means you've made your choice and your moving out tonight. Do you need my help with the move or shall I just call a cab?" 



> Because she says she just needs to get away. But she hasn't come up with a seperation agreement actually gotten a loan or gotten D papers in my hand even though she filed.


She is starting to realize that in order to keep this fish on the hook, she has to keep throwing out bigger and bigger "threats" so this is her big dance move. She talks about divorce or separating with the expectation you'll say the door is open and you want the marriage, etc. This then gives her license to "act frustrated" and she can blame you. 

To stop doing this dance, when she mentions divorce, separation or getting away, ask if you can help her pack her bags and what time will she be leaving tonight? Then if she clams up just let her know you aren't dancing this pushme-pullyou anymore and you expect that if she brings this up, she means it and will act on it within the hour.


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## disbelief

Affaircare,
wow you make me think. For example telling her what the meeting was I only did to be honest I was not trying for a reaction but I am hearing my own words and how each persons perspective on a situation is different. We were talking peacefully tonight before she went to work. In reference to this She had said how she didn't want conversation like that to give me false hope.
I do see the point in all you said. More for me to think about. I am not going to shake it up the next 2 days unless something bizarre happens. But if the D is discussed I will absolutely use the logic of your last paragraph.
Thanks once again, you all deserve more than simple thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Just a venting thing .....even with her at work I find this situation extremly discouraging and it makes me wonder how anybody makes it through to reconciliation and If its worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

It's worth it IF and only IF she shows remorse and guilt for her actions to you. f she doesn't she hasn't admitted to her mistakes to herself and cannot admit them to you. If there is no remorse, there is no love. You are long way from this right now. But yes it can be better, much better and stronger and more loving than before all this started. It's not easy for you, you have a long way to work through this and even though you have been through a lot, you really have not been able to begin dealing with it yet.


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## disbelief

She is not showing remorse. We now have proof via email that they are still at least trying to meet and in contact. Some possible meetups. Via email OM Spouse finding this.
So I guess this would put us at confronting the disloyals again now that we have evidence. This time since we have the evidence we will move to exposing if our disloyals do not respond to the confronting with evidence.


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## Powerbane

Just expose. Why are still trying to coddle these two? 

It's obvious they don't give a damn about either of you or the kids! 

Pull the trigger and bring the reality down upon them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

They think we think they have ended it so we are going back to confront step with the evidence. And now that we have real evidence we are planning when we can expose and to who. i will gladly take reminder advice I feel done with this so does OM spouse.


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## Powerbane

Yep. They went underground when confronted the first time. 

I would expose and have her bags packed ready at the door. OMW should do the same. There now suckers go find a place to live. 

Disbelief I feel for you. I knew that as long as she was having contact with he OM she was getting some needs met by him and some met by you. She loves you both and she can't decide. Blow this thing up and help her along. Granted she is the mother to your kids, but you and the kids are nothing in her eyes right now. The only thing that matters is that rush that secret meetings with OM the fantasy of how life will be so much better with him. This is the fog. 

Being nice Plan A is fine but it's not really doing anything with just the Carrot part (being nice) and not applying the Stick part of Plan A which is giving her a taste of what ita like without you and without the kids!

Expose and see what happens. The be thinking about Plan B because right now since she's already file for D what more do you have to lose?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Xmass is going to be all smiles. I'll drive she can have her beverages. Send the kids to the neighbors sunday morning or something. We want to confront at the same time All her clothes will fit in one big bag I have. The confronting might have an effect. I feel for my kids. i will be their rock. 

So we will confront with evidence in hand. Now that I finally have real evidence. Then we are much more on board with the exposing now. I am going to work up the letters.

Recommended deliver to parents and sibling right?

Oh do i tell the 20 year old son too?

I can't see telling the 11 and under the 11 is having enough trouble deciding if kids that age should date.

Whats sad so sad is how this will affect the most innocent.


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## Powerbane

Deliver to all that you can. At the same time if possible. I would tell the adult son. Not sure about the younger. At 11 they are just now becoming more aware of things relationship wise anyway. So he might take it ok. Shoot if he's like my 12 yr old, he probably knows a lot more than you think he does. 

Yes. Have the bag packed. Be prepared with the exposure and also what will be needed if for some reason this snaps her out of it. You do know now that she nor the OM are to be trusted. At this point words don't mean much. 

Godspeed to you and the family and OMW too. Yes it's a damn shame that it's always the innocents that get hurt due to others selfishness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Be the kids ROCK and be the Rock for yourself. Your moniker - disbelief - should be changed to BELIEF because you have come to believe and trust in yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

no still in disbelief over this situation the woman I married..........................don't know where she is because she wouldn't have done this. This sucks.


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> no still in disbelief over this situation the woman I married..........................don't know where she is because she wouldn't have done this. This sucks.


People change Disbelief. They change.

When I accepted my stbx’s behaviour I didn’t have a clue who she’d become. She was a different person but I’m left thinking maybe I just didn’t see her before. But I don’t “know”. I have comfort in the thought I loved her for who she was, I couldn’t love who she’d become.

I’m really sorry for what you are going through but your situation may turn around sometime in the future. You’re a good Man.


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## disbelief

Well can't say I haven't tried. Rose colored glasses would say they were only meeting to talk it was a public place. (Last shred of my dillusional hope for my family). Plus it dumps these thoughts so I can sleep. OM swears to his M and being my former friend says he is still trying to convince her to save my M.
Yeah...............................................................
So confronting we will go work schedules could delay we want to confront at the same time. Thanks AFEH
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

The problem you have with exposure it is not broad and deep enough to affect these two, so I am sure both must have a facebook account or at least a list of acquaintances they socialised with, you have to expose this to all friends and family, this has to be hard and effective no messing around. Read the example exposure letter I placed in regionrat's thread. You have to hit this far and wide to be effective and you mention the word BIL infront of his name. 

Your opinion does not count to your wife nor does your parents, include in the list her work aquatinces, send them text message along the lines of the mail message. 

Tell all your children, identify the man who is destroying you marriage, your wife does not get away with sitting with you when you tell the children, she sits with you, if she runs away you carry on. Do not sign anything to make her life easier, now ask the OM's wife to get on the MB site.


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## disbelief

Eli-Zor said:


> The problem you have with exposure it is not broad and deep enough to affect these two, so I am sure both must have a facebook account or at least a list of acquaintances they socialised with, you have to expose this to all friends and family, this has to be hard and effective no messing around. Read the example exposure letter I placed in regionrat's thread. You have to hit this far and wide to be effective and you mention the word BIL infront of his name.
> 
> Your opinion does not count to your wife nor does your parents, include in the list her work aquatinces, send them text message along the lines of the mail message.
> 
> Tell all your children, identify the man who is destroying you marriage, your wife does not get away with sitting with you when you tell the children, she sits with you, if she runs away you carry on. Do not sign anything to make her life easier, now ask the OM's wife to get on the MB site.


His exposure could spread to work. They do not face book. She does not socialize with people from work I don't even have her bosses contact only a name. OM W knows it will spread to his work as soon as one person knows.
I do not follow what you said about wife sitting with me or not when telling kids. We felt as though we were at the confront stage again with new evidence so we were going to start there. This will happen after xmass. Hopefully coordinated same time same day sooner than later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

After you confront, your children must be told. 

Your wife should sit with you when you tell your children, you must tell them with her present, use the word adultery and more to the point identify the man who is destroying your family. 

Be open and honest, your wife may be unhappy, you need to close this down quickly the children are not stupid. You tell the children because it is better for them to hear it from you than from someone else and you have control over how it is relayed to them, you are there to interact with them afterwards. The children also need reassurance that it is a "parent problem" and the parents are dealing with it. They also need to know they are not the cause as they tend to personalize.

An extract from one of the MB articles and books




> The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
> 
> 
> An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.


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## 8yearscheating

When It comes to the kids and exposure I disagree and think there is a limit and a right time for this. Exposure to friends and family will put her in a defensive position. Yes it brings it out in the open and gets some support for the marriage, though not much. Telling your family builds a level of shame for her that is very hard for her to overcome in the future. I think exposure is best held until there is no chance of reconciliation and I still don't think you are there yet.

As far as the kids are concerned, I completely disagree. Again, there is no value in this until you finalizing D. I am very glad that since my wife and I are R that I did not expose even to my adult children because it would have forever changed my kids relationship with their mother. I gave my oldest daughter a chance to know with the questions first that she could never divulge to my wife she knew unless we got divorced and would have to lie to her mother if asked because it could destroy our chances of R. My daughter decided she couldn't lie to her mother and would rather not know. In this way, she knew there was something very serious going on and I repeatedly told her I couldn't give her all the details - it was up to her mother to do so. As far as the younger kids are concerned, they won't understand this at all and teenagers are likely to be very confused - they have enough issues growing up. I asked myself what value there was in exposing to the kids. You can't use them as a support system. I saw no positives at all. If a divorce happens, then the adult children who can understand can know. Even then I see no value in it for younger kids. Both my IC and MC said the same.

As far as exposure to friends and work, consider if you think it will result in any support for the marriage and what the long term ramifications for her work would be. In my wife's case, work exposure could have cost her to lose her job. The grapevine would have caused her much shame and nothing in the way of changing her mind as her close friends would have continued to support her despite what she had done - they have no relationship with me and would not have destroyed their friendships with her for it. Even the ones who might confront her would hear her side only - the fog induced description and would most likely continue to support her. So what is gained besides further alienation and more defensive posturing with you?

Again - take your own counsel on this and think it through. There is plenty of time later to reveal it to your adult children and the families as well as others. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Meaning - Discretion is the better part of valor.
Prov. It is good to be brave, but it is also good to be careful.; If you are careful, you will not get into situations that require you to be brave. Caution and forethought are better than creating a situation you cannot change later.


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## Eli-Zor

Stick to the plan:

The MB plan is a well documented and supported journey, all who read their articles know they have a high success rate. Their advice is created by professionals in their field. When it comes to saving your marriage hard facts and doable tasks count.

Tell your children, as you well know you are now in the high risk divorce category so there must be no messing around. The OM's wife must do the same. 



> You tell the children because it is better for them to hear it from you than from someone else and you have control over how it is relayed to them


You both must assume the worst, if you have her bags packed I assume the OM's wife is on the same plan.

Be prepared that they shack up together.


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## 8yearscheating

If your kids ask the question because others have told them, you can explain then.


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## AFEH

8yearscheating said:


> When It comes to the kids and exposure I disagree and think there is a limit and a right time for this. Exposure to friends and family will put her in a defensive position. Yes it brings it out in the open and gets some support for the marriage, though not much. Telling your family builds a level of shame for her that is very hard for her to overcome in the future. I think exposure is best held until there is no chance of reconciliation and I still don't think you are there yet.
> 
> As far as the kids are concerned, I completely disagree. Again, there is no value in this until you finalizing D. I am very glad that since my wife and I are R that I did not expose even to my adult children because it would have forever changed my kids relationship with their mother. I gave my oldest daughter a chance to know with the questions first that she could never divulge to my wife she knew unless we got divorced and would have to lie to her mother if asked because it could destroy our chances of R. My daughter decided she couldn't lie to her mother and would rather not know. In this way, she knew there was something very serious going on and I repeatedly told her I couldn't give her all the details - it was up to her mother to do so. As far as the younger kids are concerned, they won't understand this at all and teenagers are likely to be very confused - they have enough issues growing up. I asked myself what value there was in exposing to the kids. You can't use them as a support system. I saw no positives at all. If a divorce happens, then the adult children who can understand can know. Even then I see no value in it for younger kids. Both my IC and MC said the same.
> 
> As far as exposure to friends and work, consider if you think it will result in any support for the marriage and what the long term ramifications for her work would be. In my wife's case, work exposure could have cost her to lose her job. The grapevine would have caused her much shame and nothing in the way of changing her mind as her close friends would have continued to support her despite what she had done - they have no relationship with me and would not have destroyed their friendships with her for it. Even the ones who might confront her would hear her side only - the fog induced description and would most likely continue to support her. So what is gained besides further alienation and more defensive posturing with you?
> 
> Again - take your own counsel on this and think it through. There is plenty of time later to reveal it to your adult children and the families as well as others. Discretion is the better part of valor.
> Meaning - Discretion is the better part of valor.
> Prov. It is good to be brave, but it is also good to be careful.; If you are careful, you will not get into situations that require you to be brave. Caution and forethought are better than creating a situation you cannot change later.



That’s one of the very best pieces of advice I’ve read on TAM.

This exposure thing is not the way ahead.

First off it drives the DS and the affair partner even more closer together. It “bonds” them together even more and against the loyal spouses and everyone else they have no need for in their family and social circle.

Secondly it truly embitters the DS against the LS.

Embitterment:
Embitterment is a distinct state of mood known to everyone. It can be seen in the context of exceptional though “normal” negative life events. It is an emotional reaction e.g. to humiliation, to being severely disappointed by others, or to violations of basic values. Embitterment is accompanied by other emotions like feelings of hopelessness and helplessness, poor moods and a lack of drive, and aggression towards oneself and others. It can end in suicide or even murder-suicide and in a distinct pathological state known as “Posttraumatic Embitterment Disorder (PTED)”. But despite the high prevalence rates, the detrimental effects on individuals and its forensic and societal importance, embitterment has yet to receive due scientific attention. 
In this book pioneers in embitterment research summarize the current knowledge on embitterment, its triggers, phenomenology and consequences. The work is intended to stimulate international debate and to contribute to a better understanding of embitterment and a deeper appreciation of the impact of exceptional but normal negative life events on psychological well-being”

From Embitterment.


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## disbelief

This is a deeply debated subject even by Drs. Hartleys from MB from what I read. We are going to confront with the new evidence first. The source will not be revealed. Exposure can be deeper on OM as it could spread to his work. I cannot logically effect my W's co workers I don't have contact info. There r concerns I could contact her boss about depression etc define the situation. No facebooks small social networks small family as discussed way back in this thread. It may be a week between confront and expose in order to coordinate and do letters. I suppose after you implement a measure you should monitor results. I am torn on the kid bit especially rt now my Little ones would not understand adultery I feel that would be sex ed before they need it. They will know its not their fault. Yay Merry Christmas
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Hang in there, you are doing what is required to protect you and your children . When the light eventually gets through to your wife she will see what she has lost. 

Be strong , keep a clear head. Be ready for your wife and the OM to gaslight you and the OM's wife.



> There r concerns I could contact her boss about depression etc define the situation.


 This is a good option, as you have a legitimate reason to mention that the affair is causing the depression, Are you able to phone her work and have the conversation ?



> . I am torn on the kid bit especially rt now my Little ones would not understand adultery


Say that she has a boyfriend and he is XXX and in a marriage mom should not have boyfriends. What they are doing is breaking up the family, keep it simple but do not lie and make sure they know you both love them and are there for them. If you wife chooses not to be that is here choice.


Ensure your confrontation is solid as in the manner you do it, especially the OM's wife as he may try to bully her and talk his way round it, she must not argue stick to the facts, no dialog, no debate .


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## disbelief

Gaslight ....the changing of the flame height perceived insanity rt. Thanks to your education and reading they think they are doing that and that's how I got om spouse on board and more suspicious. I pretty. Much feel done. I feel like saying this morning well let's enjoy the last holiday as a family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Yup I absolutly feel the need to scream and yell about the unfairness of life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Hold in there , you will come out of this a better person and your children will love you more for it.


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## disbelief

If it were not for the kids I would handle this so differently time will tell I know. The confronting I plan to be with the evidence and as I have seen recommended telling her she has a choice stay committ full transparency both ways all around or leave a bag will be packed enough of this toying with me. My head is stable my dad knows what's in the works I am expanding my support I have been parenting on my own any way. She can barely look me in the eye so like I can't tell something is up. Wish I could just shut off all my emotions. Thanks for your support to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Sorry I am venting this am but I figure people on this board are not bothered being the holiday days trying to leave my friend alone. I suppose in confronting I could offer her the other option of open marriage. Not what I planned on ya know we all have that movie fantasy but maybe then she would think of this differently too. I do know it's a big sea and all this has widened my eyes but I still wanted to save my family and marriage and. Spare the kids the pain of divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

> I could offer her the other option of open marriage.


Not a choice , it has its own problems



> Spare the kids the pain of divorce.


It is your wifes doing, without an affair there is a 50/50 responsibility for the marriage problems. As she is in an affair it is 75% her fault the marriage is failing. 

Do not blame yourself for the affair, stay on course.


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## blownaway

Open marriage? God, no. That is an invitation for nothing but trouble. Plus, I would think that the one who already had the affair would feel that he/she has all the power if you're willing to go down that road. That is just setting yourself up to have the spouse walk all over you for the rest of your lives. I despise every second of what's happening to me, but I would rather be alone forever than give over my dignity all for someone who doesn't care enough to put me in the #1 spot.


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## disbelief

Like I said I was venting full of random thoughts and when I have said to her what if the shoe was on the other foot she doesn't know how to react because she prob would have tried to kick me out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I have got to ask should we gather more evidence for another week instead of just 1 weeks worth? And if we confront them both same time how often does that drive them more towards each other just fact gathering here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Stay on course do not lose your nerve, you and the OM's wife know they are still in an affair. Stay on course, no second thoughts , they will deny lie etc. You know the drill stop doubting yourself. When you confront there will be no winners so do not expect to feel good however it changes the status and you and the OM's wife must start taking control. I am concerned the OM's wife will not hold the line or be confident . Both of you must stay strong for yourselves and your children. Be brave the affair is not your doing. Both of you must focus on yourselves and your children you cannot control what they do only what you do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

True thanks gonna try focus on happy for the next 24but I am sure I will end up back here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

My W'S sister swears it is over. She wants to beat OM for me and the kids. She also doesn't know about this weeks email. I still want to confront but was thinking another week of email monitoring would be worthwhile it was only done for about 4 days. What does anybody think about confronting at a MC appointment. Man am I gonna educate my kids when they get married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well some evidence in hand just a matter of when timing confront to begin with. OM swears he wants to fix his M stayed home because his spouse feared he was going to meet my W. So any reminders on confronting welcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notreadytoquit

as the Nike commercial says: Just Do It! Get your evidence, sit her down and try to stay as calm as possible. Just present the facts, state your boundries and see what she says.


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## disbelief

Was going to now she's not going to be home coordinating with om spouse schedules r gonna mess this up will make for more evidence gathering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

If she is not going to be home then where is OM? She staying at a hotel or just out all night?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

There's no nice way to do any of this. Just don't hold back, and most of all, don't make excuses for her. SHE's the one that is f***ing up the family, and the longer you wait, the more in control of the situation she will be-or worse, beat you to the punch by telling everyone why she has to move out in order to get away from the jerk that's ruining her life. Timing is everything, and you are going to need all the "allies" you can get. For the sake of humanity, man-let her rip!!!


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## disbelief

OM is home tonight with his spouse turns out my wife decided to come home before I did she's almost asleep and I still have kids to care for. My W's loss she missed out on half of xmass day because of the A. I think the pressure is building. Txtd her on a gift question tagged a r u ok and got a no. May rip in Am OM spouse needs to do same time or one will be giving the other a heads up. She spent 5 hours of xmass afternoon alone because of the A now she could be up here with her kids and not messed in the head or what. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Good on ya! Anything has got to be better than walking around on eggshells waiting.


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## disbelief

No eggshells here I am ready for whichever way this goes I would prefer reconcile recover and rebuild but if she must divorce it no longer sends fear into me. I WILL GET THROUGH AND KEEP MY KIDS WELL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> I have got to ask should we gather more evidence for another week instead of just 1 weeks worth? And if we confront them both same time how often does that drive them more towards each other just fact gathering here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 If you were following affaircare's advice, you would NOT be confronting your wife and OM. They KNOW that YOU KNOW. What good does it do to rehash that crap with them?

They recommend that you EXPOSE it to people in your wife's life who will make it clear to her they are disappointed in her. THEN, she has to choose if she will continue something that makes all her family and friends disgusted with her. It's a powerful motivator.

NOT telling her family and friends does one thing: show her that you will PROTECT HER AFFAIR FOR HER.

In which case, she has NO reason to stop cheating.


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## disbelief

We were going back to confront because they believe we LS think they are no longer in contact since they stopped cell use for email via cell. They are both denying contact with each other and acting as if they want better for the R's. That is why we were choosing to confront them first its like we just found out again but this time I have half a clue how to react and my emotions are not crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Other than telling her you don't like that they are still in contact and will not allow it to continue (no time frame), I don't see any value in putting her out. For you or for the kids. If it continues, then yes. The OM's wife should do the same with OM then both of you monitor. I think things are starting to turn. Give it time and hold on. And no - don't support or enable by suggesting open marriage. Stay the course my good man and WORK ON YOU.

Merry Christmas in spite of everything. You are showing the greatest tolerance and giving her the best possible gift you can by holding on. I'm not a strongly religious person but I will praying for your strength and her to get it together for you.


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## disbelief

Om wife plans to do the same we are going to confront at the same time so they can't warn each other OM keeps caving to guilt and OM W is planning to run the guilt line since my W is working they have both admitted everything else under guilty pressure and I think the holiday added that.
My open marriage comment was a vent and might only add pressure to her and make her think. 
I think she met him because she prob had some xmas gift shouldn't be meeting anyway where they met was plain public their emails from what we can see of the screenshots are silly but still it continues contact after several times them saying it was over.
she is even lying to her sister at this point at least by ommission. My w is playing the sitch OM told his spouse that my W says I do not talk to her and ignore her. Not true. I feel like I need to mix plan A with plan b. And the confronting all at once. 

Thanks for the support
Merry Christmas as well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Ok for all advising me we r going to confront timing sucks this week kids r all on vacation. Normal kid free time gone. My gut says they r both turning as if using plan A like xmas had that zinger effect. I was thinking due to logistics continue plan A for the week with kids at home continue gathering evidence. And then we can better plan a day to confront. Logistics of children and third shift. OM spouse working him to be transparent. My W works nxt few nights. I want to confront her with the ques if she has any hope for this Marrriage if the answer is no I feel she can move out now.
OM. Spouse saw email. With om telling my W she is wrong? I feel we should not reveal our evidence source.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well a summary in not so great form I told the wife if she has no desire to fix this and is going to keep contacting OM she can move out by end of week slipped out. She got very agitated tried to push thru me even hit me not that it hurt. She doesn't see how this can be fixed I said if someone could show us how what about then. I asked her when I was being served she doesn't know. Which means she hasn't been to the sherrifs. She wont admit to emails. She's mad I have never seen her like this. I back stepped and said I take it back u don't have to move out by the end of the week. If you move out u are choosing to do so everyone here loves u and wants u here and u can tell the kids if u r going. we can still fix this. I told her everyone missed her last night the A prevented her from attending xmas day. She blamed it on not being invited i said well who created the situation its time to take owner ship of it. Said my heart is still open but we need to be honest transparent etc if we want to fix. It was time to make her think about her family again, she want to fix her family. Not her marriage. Rt now she said she works for three days sleep and work that's it I prob messed up but I have had it.
once again time will tell. If she move out by the weekend I will be shocked. 
Focus on kids and snowballs now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

AHA!!! See?!?! You called her bluff, and she doesn't like it!!!
She wanted this whole thing to be on her terms, and hers ONLY!
You seized the initiative from her, and until now she has been talking the talk, now she's gonna have to walk the walk. Oh, she so did not want that!
Stay the course, set the example, and soon she may see that her perfect little situation is collapsing, and she's going to have to ante up.
Oh, and she hit you? I'm not surprised. Try to distance yourself-she tried to hit you, she may, in one last desperate gamble to win back control of the situation, call the cops on you and say you hit her.

P.S.-why do I feel that she was not serious about the D papers? If she so badly wants to move, she would have had them served before the ink was even dry.


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## disbelief

P.S.-why do I feel that she was not serious about the D papers? If she so badly wants to move, she would have had them served before the ink was even dry.[/QUOTE]

That's what I figured. And I have told her you need to leave go. I should have been served by now. She did the papers for the mortgage. Court doesnt have a mailing address. Unless the clerk was wrong. Well I just also spoke with her and strongly pointed out I was open to fix this we needed to be transparent I felt she has shut me out and the final fate of this M is in her hands. I guess that's pressure. I was thinking of doing one of those online seperation agreements since she keeps saying she is so ready to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Take your time, do not support her having financial Independence, be clear at all times, the mortgage is to be paid 50 50 , make the burden as hard as it can be. 

Has the OM's wife exposed yet, as he is still playing your wife.?

and keep running Plan A.


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## disbelief

No we were going to confront with email evidence same day same time so they could not warn each other. There. Is no lovey dovey stuff seen yet. All silly stupid stuff. OM W is gathering. I was going to offer her the plan A advice she is not on MB yet she has done some reading. In the meantime with the winter vacation. Week and the work schedules we have not been able to coordinate a day. We also don't want to drive them towards each other. We are using some of the info seen to play them. Yup its sneaky but they believe we have no clue. Such as addressing emotions. OM W has limited availability to talk she is quite stressed I am trying put in a nutshell for her all the info I have gained here. I don't see us being able to confront them at the same time until sunday. Tomorrow or wed Am (but all kids are home) maybe an option but I was thinking plan A for a week before might be helpful. The current emails are complaints about us loyal spouses. A couple of planted stories. So they are supporting each other. We want to confront but right now I feel we have stirred up a whole lot of negative and they will run rt to each other. That is why I was thinking some more plan A absolutley no more R talk and if emails continue set a date and confront. Then reexpose to my W's sister since she believes it is over also. There are no lovey emails seen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> No we were going to confront with email evidence same day same time so they could not warn each other. There. Is no lovey dovey stuff seen yet.


There is absolutely no purpose to 'confronting' them again - you already did that. You can most certainly let them know you are aware that the affair is still going on, but it is time to move beyond that step. It's time to take the 'battle' to another level. In my opinion, 'confronting' them will be a complete waste of time. I keep hoping you'll actually hear what people have been telling you on here, but it seems that you are so certain of your own program that you won't take any one else's advice! Expose the danged thing to your family, and stay in Plan A while you prepare for Plan B. Each step in the process is like a rung on a ladder: you keep stepping onto the first rung, and then jumping off and then stepping onto the first rung again - and wondering why you aren't getting any closer to the roof. That's why I think this whole thing is simply part of a game you are playing - there is some sort of payoff for you that makes it worth continuing the dance.




> We also don't want to drive them towards each other.


Why?



> The current emails are complaints about us loyal spouses. A couple of planted stories. So they are supporting each other.


Normal, standard, run-of-the-mill affair conversation. Fog.



> We want to confront but right now I feel we have stirred up a whole lot of negative and they will run rt to each other.


While I am not sure what you consider 'confrontation', I am curious about why you are so insistent that they not run to each other. Sound counterproductive? Sound odd? 

I say LET THEM. What will your family do then? How will they deal with all the fallout of such a stupid activity? CALL THE BLUFF, for crying out loud. Insist on the danged divorce papers. Insist she move out. LET THEM RUN TO EACH OTHER! That's where the mess is - that's where the problems are! They think it is the ANSWER to all the troubles they've created. Let them see how fun it is actually living in the mud while the family enjoys the comforts of love, etc!



> That is why I was thinking some more plan A absolutley no more R talk and if emails continue set a date and confront.


1) No 'r' talk because the way you two do 'r' talk is simply part of the dance. When the dance is over, the real relationship will start, and you'll actually be able to hold real conversations, not the 'play house' ones you've been having.

2) _If_ the emails continue? _If_? The fact that they ARE continuing is ALL you need to _move on to the next step_. How long are you going to keep dragging out an affair? 



> Then reexpose to my W's sister since she believes it is over also. There are no lovey emails seen.


Lovey or not, they are emails between affair partners. The content is _irrelevant_. The ONLY relevant email that should pass between them is a REAL No Contact letter. That is ALL. _Anything_ else is simply an affair. They are cheating and you are making excuses to keep the troubles floating in front of you. 

"Well, Doc, it's only _internal_ bleeding - there's no mess for me to clean up, so it's not as much a problem..."


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> There is absolutely no purpose to 'confronting' them again - you already did that. You can most certainly let them know you are aware that the affair is still going on, but it is time to move beyond that step. It's time to take the 'battle' to another level. In my opinion, 'confronting' them will be a complete waste of time.
> 
> I was thinking confronting was worthwhile again because this is the first time we have in hand in your face undeniable contact evidence. They are confident that we are in the dark.
> 
> I was then going to follow the next steps. Re inform my W's sister because my W convinced her it is over. Her step dad. Her mom and dad seems pointless. I am actually concerned about my mother medically if we tell her my dad has a clue. OM family would be up to OM W.
> Due to schedules we cannot coordinate either probably until the weekend. Or next week.That is why we were going to confront first.
> 
> This would allow us to plan A the rest of the week I was going to complete a seperation agreement. And do the exposure letters from MB.While I am not sure what you consider 'confrontation', I am curious about why you are so insistent that they not run to each other. Sound counterproductive? Sound odd?
> 
> I see your point. OM W wants to confront with the emails before exposing. I feel the same way. I just feel like we have gone back to square 1. I thought confronting her during our counseling appointment might be best she has gotten very agitated the last couple talks. I would like a proffessional to see her that off kilter.
> 
> From that point we want to expose This involves informing some of the same people/ family. OM spouse is just getting into this way of thinking and yes I have been thick headed. But since this is so closely related we are coordinating it.
> 
> Lovey or not, they are emails between affair partners. The content is _irrelevant_. The ONLY relevant email that should pass between them is a REAL No Contact letter. That is ALL. _Anything_ else is simply an affair. They are cheating and you are making excuses to keep the troubles floating in front of you.
> 
> Understood
> "Well, Doc, it's only _internal_ bleeding - there's no mess for me to clean up, so it's not as much a problem..."


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## turnera

IF the emails continue? You KNOW they continue! What on earth are you so afraid of? That she'll actually leave?

Hon, she LEFT you a LONG time ago. The only thing left in your marriage now is a wimpy, clingy husband who's willing to let his wife play house with two men and throw him a crumb or two.

How do you expect her to respect YOU and want to please YOU if you're letting her CHEAT on you?

All this mumbo jumbo you and OMW are planning is nothing but a smokescreen to hide the fact that BOTH of you are too scared to protect yourselves. And a scared BS's attempt to coordinate a pie in the sky 'fix' to suddenly make your wife care about you again.

It doesn't work. The only thing that works is exposure, boundaries, and consequences. NONE of which you have done.

Sit her down tonight and tell her she either hands over her phone for you to check whenever you ask, or you will help her pack up her boxes for Saturday's move.


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## turnera

Oh, we can't confront cos the kids are home.

Oh, we can't confront cos OMW has a cold.

Oh, we can't confront cos DS has to study for his midterm.

Oh, we can't confront cos summer vacation is coming up...


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## F-102

Every time you see her, in the kitchen, living room, etc., ask: "Well, where are those D papers, shall we go down to the courthouse and see what the hold up is? And why aren't you packed up yet? Need me to help?" Forcing her to s**t or get off the pot.
And what is all this "We're GOING TO confront?" talk? You confronted her long ago, and of course, you got screwed from both partners. Never mind the OM W, blow the whistle on her now.


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## 8yearscheating

Everybody pile on because he's not following your advice!
Time works very slowly. I agree confrontation will only require you reveal details that will close the email channel. They both know you know. Pushing out the doorr or for the d papers only forces a decision that will be reactionary and not thought out by her. I would keep to the you can't accept or allow contact to continue. If there is to be achance at all, she must stop all contact and start to be honest. Then monitor and wait. Time is on your side. 
I want one of these crystal balls everyone seems to be using.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Every time you see her, in the kitchen, living room, etc., ask: "Well, where are those D papers, shall we go down to the courthouse and see what the hold up is? And why aren't you packed up yet? Need me to help?" Forcing her to s**t or get off the pot.
> And what is all this "We're GOING TO confront?" talk? You confronted her long ago, and of course, you got screwed from both partners. Never mind the OM W, blow the whistle on her now.


Well i posted it earlier that we we going to confront on their current communication because they believe they are in secret. Half the family to expose to is away on vacation. Work schedules actually affect getting it done. I put 100% of the weight of the end of this marriage on her. 
Guilt has done her in with revealing every bit of this affair, and I can see this bit wearing on her. She is missing out with the kids and I am making that obvious.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Everybody pile on because he's not following your advice!
> Time works very slowly. I agree confrontation will only require you reveal details that will close the email channel. They both know you know. Pushing out the doorr or for the d papers only forces a decision that will be reactionary and not thought out by her. I would keep to the you can't accept or allow contact to continue. If there is to be achance at all, she must stop all contact and start to be honest. Then monitor and wait. Time is on your side.
> I want one of these crystal balls everyone seems to be using.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll take the pile on it keeps me thinking. I don't want to get complacent. Time I think is working here. I do think I am going to deal with this at our MC appointment. I need a third party present. She still doesn't answer if she really has given up. Last night she was questioning the transparency saying she wouldn't live like that I explained it would go both ways, both of our lives would be open books to each other. That was the first time she talked of it without being angry. So thats the view from my seat. OM is telling my W in emails it is getting better at his house. OM parent back in hospital ICU really not good so......OMW wants to monitor for a bit schedule dictates that anyway. My gut says something is changing. I could be wrong everyone can call me a sucker. but in this scheme whats another week if it prevents my kids witnessing an all out argument. My W is more tormented than I am right now. Everyones probably frustrated with me but I would not have gotten through this without everyones input. Thanks again 8 for the support. 


I can email the MC should I forewarn her of what I have in store for our meeting?


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## Eli-Zor

Do not forewarn the MC you drive the agenda. You marriage is far from over, the conversation should explicitly state that no contact is permanent , what they are now doing is what they did when the affair started, they are dissing you and the OM's wife. They are still on the affair.

Do not wait for schedules expose the affair so you can move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Feels like its over the MC appointment is a week away there's besides that she is mostly working so I can wait. Like I said I want to do it with the MC and from there I can go give the same evidence to her sister.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> I'll take the pile on it keeps me thinking. I don't want to get complacent. Time I think is working here.


This is in reply to 8years objection that 'everyone' keeps pointing out the fact that disbelief is ignoring the elephant in the living room. 

The objection is couched here: "...Pushing out the doorr or for the d papers only forces a decision that will be reactionary and not thought out by her...." 

There's nothing wrong with forcing a 'reactionary' decision. In fact, if a spouse continues an affair, it is often the 'pushing out the door' that finally wakes them up. Trying to avoid the issue by creeping around pretending things aren't as they are, especially in this case - is exactly why the issue is here in the first place.

It is most likely that Disbelief's wife has no desire to divorce him. Instead, the threat is a very handy control device - he shuts up and curls back up in his corner when she makes those noises.



> I do think I am going to deal with this at our MC appointment. I need a third party present.


What are you hoping a 'third party' will do?



> She still doesn't answer if she really has given up.


Earlier your idea was to avoid all 'r' talk: 

(Posted about 2 days ago: "...That is why I was thinking some more plan A *absolutley no more R talk* and if emails continue set a date and confront. Then reexpose to my W's sister since she believes it is over also....")

So...why the 'r' talk? I have no problem with doing it - but your fight for your marriage will ONLY begin when you become _consistent_ in what you say you will do - that is, when your words match your actions. Either do it, or not, but don't make promises, or pledges, and then forget them. Your wife is quite used to this - which is 3why she is still having a _full blown affair_ with your sister's husband.



> Last night she was questioning the transparency saying she wouldn't live like that I explained it would go both ways, both of our lives would be open books to each other. That was the first time she talked of it without being angry.


These three things are non-negotiable:

1) A no contact letter to the Other Person that YOU read and DELIVER.

2) Transparency on the part of both parties.

3) Commitment to deliberate and diligent work on the marriage (the 'r' talk - and the actions following that talk). Perhaps a third party could help here, but that is not part of the obligation.​
Non-negotiable. The reason is that if there is a refusal to take any of these three steps means that the marriage is not being taken seriously - and the affair, or the option to start another one, has priority. Your wife may not want to - most people find it easier to let things slide; but the objection is irrelevant. It is part of the commitment to being married: in essence, these three steps are direct conclusions based upon the facts of the concept of being married. You avoid them, you harm your marriage.

Non-negotiable, and _only useful_ if the wandering spouse has decided to come back to the marriage. Insisting on 'no contact' in the midst of an active affair is the height of folly. Why not tell the drug addict just after they snorted a huge line to stop being high. Never gonna work. 

Until the affair ends, you cannot work on your marriage. You cannot work on your relationship. The affair must end first. Even going to a Marriage Counselor is, in my opinion, an absolute waste of time. A 'Marriage' Counselor is there to help when both partners are committed to the marriage: commitment to working together is prior to finding out how to work on problems together!



> OM is telling my W _*in emails*_ it is getting better at his house.


Email continues. Affair still in progress. If you know the content of these emails, I am fairly certain your wife knows you know as well. No need to 'confront.' There is another way to deal with this altogether.



> OM parent back in hospital ICU really not good so......OMW wants to monitor for a bit schedule dictates that anyway.
> 
> That is the Other Man's Wife's decision. What are YOU going to do about YOUR family?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My gut says something is changing. I could be wrong everyone can call me a sucker. but in this scheme whats another week if it prevents my kids witnessing an all out argument.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that your kids NEVER need to witness an all out argument, so the _time_ is of no importance. If you cannot discuss this without an argument, you are going about it incorrectly, and would be better off not having the conversation.
> 
> Your kids would grow immensely if they witnessed an all-out disagreement, in which the adults came to a working solution, but never an argument. In fact, the idea that you are planning on having an argument is a little disturbing in itself! That is part of the _dance_ to which Affaircare alludes (what I call _the game_.) It serves no healthy purpose for you, your wife, or your kids. All it does is provide outlets for emotional outbursts.
> 
> Gotta start THINKING, disbelief, or else you'll simply keep repeating this same scenario.
Click to expand...


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> This is in reply to 8years objection that 'everyone' keeps pointing out the fact that disbelief is ignoring the elephant in the living room.
> 
> The objection is couched here: "...Pushing out the doorr or for the d papers only forces a decision that will be reactionary and not thought out by her...."
> 
> There's nothing wrong with forcing a 'reactionary' decision. In fact, if a spouse continues an affair, it is often the 'pushing out the door' that finally wakes them up. Trying to avoid the issue by creeping around pretending things aren't as they are, especially in this case - is exactly why the issue is here in the first place.
> 
> OK I do keep pushing this issue with her she filed papers but she doesn't know when she will get them in the mail to bring to the sheriff to serve me. From a woman who accounts for every penny in the check book. I have asked in one form or another almost daily since XMas eve. She gets very defensive and avoids answering when I ask if it is what she really wants.
> 
> I am also asking her and expressing my doubt daily about her not being in contact with OM. Yes I am game playing right now
> 
> What are you hoping a 'third party' will do?
> I only want a witness she got so mad our last talk she physically lashed out at me. Someone besides me needs to see her that off, and maybe mediate the conversation.
> 
> Earlier your idea was to avoid all 'r' talk:
> 
> (Posted about 2 days ago: "...That is why I was thinking some more plan A *absolutley no more R talk* and if emails continue set a date and confront. Then reexpose to my W's sister since she believes it is over also....")
> 
> So...why the 'r' talk? I have no problem with doing it - but your fight for your marriage will ONLY begin when you become _consistent_ in what you say you will do - that is, when your words match your actions. Either do it, or not, but don't make promises, or pledges, and then forget them. Your wife is quite used to this - which is 3why she is still having a _full blown affair_ with your sister's husband.
> 
> Being consistent is a flaw of mine I do tend to be forgetful my W remembers everything including childhood details. I have not promised her no more R talk those are my statements here. I do need to work on that. She has initiated conversations and i have taken your advice remained calm spoken from a logical and not emotional place even walked away when she was being unreasonable.
> 
> 
> These three things are non-negotiable:
> 
> 1) A no contact letter to the Other Person that YOU read and DELIVER.
> 
> 2) Transparency on the part of both parties.
> 
> 3) Commitment to deliberate and diligent work on the marriage (the 'r' talk - and the actions following that talk). Perhaps a third party could help here, but that is not part of the obligation.​
> 
> Those three things I planned to address while in the MC session.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OM parent back in hospital ICU really not good so......OMW wants to monitor for a bit schedule dictates that anyway.
> 
> That is the Other Man's Wife's decision. What are YOU going to do about YOUR family?
> 
> Knowing that they are in contact we planned to confront and do any exposing on the same day same time. The MC appointment is the best closest day for this in my life, less than a week and my W is working 4 of those days.
> 
> Your kids would grow immensely if they witnessed an all-out disagreement, in which the adults came to a working solution, but never an argument. In fact, the idea that you are planning on having an argument is a little disturbing in itself! That is part of the _dance_ to which Affaircare alludes (what I call _the game_.) It serves no healthy purpose for you, your wife, or your kids. All it does is provide outlets for emotional outbursts.
> 
> 
> I am not planning an argument but any conversation about ......well mostly anything to do with the house and marriage and family lately on her side turns heated. Things that used to be a normal discussion. I try not to argue she turns it. Things are not the way she wants i believe.
> 
> Gotta start THINKING, disbelief, or else you'll simply keep repeating this same scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not want to keep repeating and that is why i want to bring it to a head with the MC. I plan on emails in hand a completed seperation agreement, and depending on the beggining of the week I may have my own set of D papers with the Adultery box checked for her not irreconcilable differences as she did. I will also have your list from above. I will also clearly state that I am willing to work on this marriage but this GAME is enough. So yes I guess i have reached my limit. She keeps lying to my face so.....
> 
> PS sorry I don't know how to multi quote the right way.
Click to expand...


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## Tanelornpete

First off - regarding:

These three things are non-negotiable:

1) A no contact letter to the Other Person that YOU read and DELIVER.

2) Transparency on the part of both parties.

3) Commitment to deliberate and diligent work on the marriage (the 'r' talk - and the actions following that talk). Perhaps a third party could help here, but that is not part of the obligation.​


> Those three things I planned to address while in the MC session.


Please keep in mind that there is _no_ reason for you to bring these up at all right now. These are the conditions for _return to the marriage_. They are NOT designed to _end the affair_. They are conditions that must be in place if your spouse wishes to return to the marriage; and this is entirely conditional upon the affair being _over_, and your wife asking you if she can 'come back home' (metaphorically or literally.) 

In other words, there is no reason to bring them up with the Marriage Counselor (even avoiding my opinion that you have no need for a Marriage Counselor at all right now). You have more important things to do. 

All you need do is state them clearly, so your wife knows what they are, and then LEAVE THEM OUT OF THE CONVERSATION thereafter. When the time comes, she will bring them up, and you can talk about them when she is ready to work on them. 



> ...she filed papers but she doesn't know when she will get them in the mail to bring to the sheriff to serve me. From a woman who accounts for every penny in the check book.


That fact alone should clue you into how she is playing this issue: if she really wanted that divorce, the ink would be drying already. 



> I have asked in one form or another almost daily since XMas eve. She gets very defensive and avoids answering when I ask if it is what she really wants.


Quit asking - it is all talk! That is part of the game: you say something, she responds, you say something else, and on and on, no solution. Sometimes it seems more like no solution is even desired! 

Maturity sets in when actions match words.

Regarding: 

What are you hoping a 'third party' will do?​


> I only want a witness she got so mad our last talk she physically lashed out at me. Someone besides me needs to see her that off, and maybe mediate the conversation.


It's been my experience that people normally act in an entirely different way around a counselor. But even if she did react with anger - what would that prove? How would that help you?

As for mediating the conversation: the _topic_ is incorrect (irrelevant). As I wrote above, those three conditions are not designed, nor intended, to stop a person from cheating. They are designed for an entirely different reason! If you want someone to mediate a conversation, how about having someone help you two simple communicate, regardless of the topic?

So you sit there in the counselor's office and recite the three conditions. So the counselor (provided they even agree with them) hears you say the three conditions. So your wife hears you say the three conditions (again). What would this accomplish? 

Do you really think that the counselor will somehow magically convince your wife to end her affair, and cut off all contact with the Other Man? More often than not, a counselor will push for divorce rather than reconciliation, unless you get a really rare one who is actually pro-marriage. Then who is being 'mediated'?



> Knowing that they are in contact we planned to confront and do any exposing on the same day same time. The MC appointment is the best closest day for this in my life, less than a week and my W is working 4 of those days.


I am (along with probably many other people here) confused about this. Why is it necessary to confront them at all? You have already done that: you told them you were aware of the affair, and you requested that it end. What more is there to do? It's like you got into your car, started it, and are now trying to start it again, even though it is already running. 

Just expose the danged affair. Do it tonight. Yes, I know you have all kinds of excuses: not everyone will read the news tonight, etc., etc. *So what?* All that matters is that the lying and cheating is known by the people to whom it matters most - _regardless of what they do with it._

Keep this in mind: this is not your sister's business. It is YOUR business. What she does is her OWN business. YOUR family is what matters here. YOUR kids, YOUR wife, YOU. Not her family, not your parents, not her parents. YOUR family. DO what YOU need to do to be the husband you claim you want to be. Protect, support and strengthen your family.



> I am not planning an argument but any conversation about ......well mostly anything to do with the house and marriage and family lately on her side turns heated. Things that used to be a normal discussion. I try not to argue she turns it. Things are not the way she wants i believe.


It takes BOTH of you to argue. But if you are truly prepared, there is NO REASON, _at all_ for you to get involved. This is THE GAME. And you refuse to stop playing it! 

What happens if you simply do not engage in the 'heated' part of it. What happens if you simply stick to the basic facts, and simply repeat them, calmly. What can she do? Hit you? Is that so awful? Will you survive? How would that behavior affect a court hearing on custody? What if she gets mad? SO what? She's CHEATING _NOW_: what is worse?

I want you to concentrate on a sentence you wrote (remember I keep asking you to _think_?):

*I try not to argue she turns it.*​
There are two 'branches' to it: 

1) I try not to argue.

2) She turns it.

And the inference here is that this creates the argument. 

As in 'I try not to argue, but she changes the conversation so that I am left without an option but to engage in angry exchanges', etc.

Can you see a flaw here? Let me point it out:

You are saying that you try not to argue, but she does, so you have to. 

What a load! SO what if she changes it? How does this therefore FORCE you to engage in an argument? Of course, it does not force you to argue. 

THAT IS A CHOICE YOU MAKE. 

The steps of the dance:

1) Conversation started. 
2) You don't argue.
3) Change topic or way it is addressed.
4) You argue.

Payoff? You both get to engage in an emotional battle rather than face reality.

Now then: you have some knowledge gleaned from what, two months(?) of reading, study and conversation on this and other sites. She does not have this knowledge. In other words, you are better armed and have new equipment. 

So in these 'arguments,' she is at a disadvantage: she does not have a lot of handy tools necessary to get to a solution (which is the _real_ reason these arguments happen, eh?). YOU DO! You have MANY tools, and much sound advice. 

Which begs the question: why does it then turn into a fight? I posit one reason: you will not use the tools you've gained here and other places. Instead, you back down to a lower level - back into her playing field. Why? Again, I posit that this is because this is what you've done for so long you find it hard to break that habit. 

And habits are only broken by choosing to replace them - and this is purely intellectual: you have to USE the mental tools you've gained.

So it comes back to my same old point: start thinking!


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## disbelief

I do see that I am not clear enough in my responses. Just in regards to the arguing it only turns on her side. I remain. Calm if she wants to yell I can't stop her but I am not yelling an arguing back I am maintaining the calm. So I guess its more her becoming angry and me not feeding back into it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

That does help some - but what is to be made of this statement:



> but in this scheme whats another week if it prevents my kids witnessing an all out argument. My W is more tormented than I am right now.


?

If there is not going to be an argument, then why wait a week, since the point here seems to be that you are avoiding exposing the affair in order to prevent the kids seeing the argument...?

Also:



> I am not planning an argument but any conversation about ......well mostly anything to do with the house and marriage and family lately on her side turns heated. Things that used to be a normal discussion. I try not to argue she turns it. Things are not the way she wants i believe.


What is the reason for pointing out that she does not argue rationally, and saying that you 'try' not to argue?

Just trying to clarify things....


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## turnera

What I see is you are AFRAID.

Are you ready to admit it, so we can really help you?


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## disbelief

I had posted another reply last night it failed to make it do I like this no am i afraid of my wife leaving like the way i felt on D Day. NO! Part of my homework which I still walk around pondering is what i want well i want what I cant have the way my life was a year ago before my wife blew a gasket. Things will never be just like that. I know that if i need help I pick up my phone and I can call people. She sadly does not because the people she would have called were my contacts. 
So I choose to deal with this next week because that is when it works best for me. I have time to prepare myself. I have the opportunity to offer to her in nice conversation what I would like to see for us. 
She has been saying she needed to leave since D day. I first begged her not to go. I have since given her the open door. She has filed the papers but oddly enough has no clue when we will see them. She is a very organized person. She was suppossed to complete a seperation agreement 3 times, in order for our MC to help us work out issues. She does not try to avoid counseling at all. So I was letting her actions lead. No maybe this is not on everyones time frame, but it works for me and will shock her.
I completed a seperation agreement last night DRAFT in the watermark because it is not perfect. I will have the run down of what has transpired since our last MC appointment, it has been weeks. I have let my W lead most times at the MC seeing where she was going to take it I plan to lead the discussion this time, nicely of course.
So yes I remain Afraid for my children and the pain and sadness her finally leaving will create. I fear that she is putting on such a good game face with everyone except me that nobody else can see how emotionally off she is right now. And even an MC or an MD will probably not pickup on it unless she snaps.
I am afraid that if I expose the whole truth to my mother she will have a real cardiac issue, my dad .........may react violently and have a cardiac issue. They both have real health problems. My mom at the discussion of us having marital difficulties had a very negative response emotional and physical. And thats not amature eval I am medically trained, with long term experience.
I am no longer truly afraid of her not recommitting to this M because right now she is not the woman I married and I do not know how I feel about that. I no longer know for sure that I want her here. 
So I choose to deal with this situation in less than a week. During a MC appointment. Prepared with papers organized. From which appointment I will leave and bring her sister her one trusted person she confides in the same evidence of the ongoing contact. Her sister who is convinced the contact is over as well.
I need to be able to look at myself in the mirror 20 years from now. If I do not do it this way I will not feel right. They (om and my WW) truly believe we have no clue. Like it is brand new. So I do not see the confronting as a waste of time you are only getting my typed words I cannot fully express the rest of what I see, do, discuss with others etc.

So I am not ignoring anyones advice without it all I would be curled up in a corner. I would not be making my stubborn decision. For ME I need to confront her on this. FOR ME. I just realized that, it's not a waste of time, It is what I need to do, for me to work through this to know that I did everything I felt was right and made my decisions. Even though they were not right on with everyone. This is how I need to do it. I need a third party there, because I know she has been twisting what happens.

She knows the fate of this marriage is in her hands I have made that clear.

Thank you again everyone for your input.


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## 8yearscheating

Well grounded and well thought out. As I've said before you need to make the decisions that work best for you. I have a real problem with tunera pushing her agenda because she does not know everything you do. There were times when I was at your point that some of the posters seemed to think theirs was the only way and their posts in all honesty really pissed me off and did not provide any benefit at all. Even had one call my wife a wh*re. I'm glad I stuck to my own counsel and was very successful. You are doing an excellent job of filtering the feedback. Confrontation and pushing too hard will only cause her to draw back into her shell. I think you are making real progress with her even though it may not seem like it. Keep going my good man and you will find happiness one way or another.


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## turnera

Understood. 

8years, the only reason I am pushing is that, based on his past, I fear (1) he is going to cave and NOT expose to HER parents/siblings (not yours, disbelief; you don't have to tell YOUR parents) and it is that secrecy that is allowing them to keep in contact; and (2) he seems to be building up this 'confront' as a fix, as though he thinks that, if he and OMW spring this confront on them at the same time, the cheaters will have no choice but to stop.

That's unlikely to happen. disbelief, your wife is going to deny the affair, even in front of MC and when you show your proof, she will sideline it into issues she has with you. She will deflect. I know you think that the MC is going to side with you, but I've seen many more MCs NOT side with the BS than who do. Why? Because they don't want to piss off the WS into not coming back.

I just worry that you are building up all this hope into what's going to happen that magical night, between you confronting, OMW confronting, and MC convincing your wife to stop cheating. 

When in reality, there IS a qualified plan for stopping her affair that has been developed over 30 years of research, actual cases, and based on a psychological premise for what works and doesn't work. 

We have offered to help you through it, and you choose not to. That's cool. You do what you need to do. I hope it works for you.

Just remember, the day after your confrontation, if she goes and gets a prepaid phone so you can't track her and goes underground, you can still return to the plan and follow it.

btw, 8years, it is not MY agenda; it's a professional, successful plan for busting affairs and fixing marriages. I get no personal benefit from people using it.


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## Eli-Zor

> When in reality, there IS a qualified plan for stopping her affair that has been developed over 30 years of research, actual cases, and based on a psychological premise for what works and doesn't work


. 
:iagree::iagree:

That is the key message, it is not made up by us , it is a working plan based on hard experience and has a high rate of success if followed correctly.

Final decisions are always yours disbelief.


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## disbelief

See now thats why I am still on this forum because the idea of prepaid had slipped my mind. I can see exposing to her family but wouldn't I need to present evidence and that would be the email so don't I lose out anyway. 
I don't see this as a magic cure I see her leaving no matter what i do. She sticks to that. That is why i almost am OK with "go go have your affair" because I feel like "whatever" 

Ok So I expose to 2 of her family members who already know and did nada about it. And the other 2 will do the same thats the reality.
She will get ticked and continue to do whats "best" for her. HER mentality. 

OM family all have had affairs and one brothers a womanizer so would probably cheer him on even though he knows me. So much for support system. You see how I feel like I am in a lose lose lose situation. Her coworkers don't know me.


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## AFEH

You’re doing well Disbelief.

Personally I think Men ignore their gut instincts and “inner guide” at their own peril. Your emotions were all over the place and are somewhat settled now but those emotions are very intelligent and tell us a lot if we listen to them and comprehend them. I also think Men ignore the messages our emotions speak to us at our own peril.

You’ve also taken in one heck of a lot of technical information here and rationalised that within the context of situation you find yourself. You’re doing well.

Bob


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## turnera

The main benefit of exposure is the cheater KNOWING that her important people now know she is cheating. Nothing takes the shine off the apple like knowing people are disappointed in you, that you have embarrassed the family, that you will be looked down on for what you're doing.

I take you feel like you need to be able to keep reading her emails. And thus you are not letting her know that you know. Why?

You KNOW she's cheating. Once you confront (again), she will KNOW that YOU know. Why do you need to keep reading emails to know what you already know?

Please go to affaircare.com and read up on the plan for stopping an affair. It is VERY thorough, VERY logical, and gives you step by step instructions. Do this, then that. In it, you'll see that, by the time you get to confront, it no longer matters if you can keep reading her emails. By THAT point, you are saying to her "I want you to stop cheating. If you won't, you can move out because I will not live with a cheater. If you want to stay, I will now require total transparency from you, which means you hand over your phone and computer any time I need to check, so I can verify you're no longer cheating and start to rebuild trust in you."

fwiw, almost ALL WWs who are confronted and exposed threaten to leave. Far fewer actually do it. Why? Because they WANT BOTH OF YOU. They don't WANT to move out and play house with OM; they want BOTH of you to continue to meet their needs. Please don't let your fear guide you. 

No, you don't have to have evidence to tell her family/friends. Even if they ask for it, don't you already HAVE evidence? And remember, exposure is less about family/friends pressuring her to stop (which rarely works anyway), and more about the cheater KNOWING they've been exposed and they can no longer pretend they can just replace you with OM and everyone will accept him. It's about letting the cheater SEE that this isn't going to turn out well, and that they still have a way home to the man and family they belong with.

You are coming up with all these rationalizations about what she will and won't do. If you'll educate yourself (reading the books we suggested, going to affaircare.com or marriagebuilders.com), you'll see that she is NO DIFFERENT from 99% of all other cheaters. They follow the same script, say the same things, threaten the same way, and nearly always lose the affair within 2 years at most. And HOPEFULLY (if you've exposed and helped her learn there's a way home through humility) will be back and ready to tackle the marriage. But they almost NEVER come home, from what I've seen, unless the betrayed husband stands up to them and says stop or move out.

fwiw, almost all betrayed husbands say the same thing as you: "I can't expose; that'll just make her mad; then she'll never come home; I can't take that chance." If you'll spend some time reading some threads of resolved marriages, you'll see that, yes, you CAN expose and get her back, too. 

Your marriage can survive her anger; it can't survive another man.


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## disbelief

I am beggining to see that and on my side I have the fact that she has twice said she wants to tell everyone. I am beginning to face this. In about 2 months you/we/i have broken down my absolute of my W and not exposing because of how I have known her for the past 20 years. 

This is hard i am not going to lie. 
So if i choose to prepare this route all the steps to review i know are on affaircare and the best way is in writing correct.

I just feel like I am at the point where I do say look I know you are still In contact. confront her on that even if i dont put the emails in her lap. Discuss all the transparency things you mentioned above. And follow the Affaircare steps. 
Yes in the beginning i was hoping she was going to come right back because I still saw my old wife. Now I see some crazy lady I don't know with the occaisional visit from my wife. Just no love and affection. Alot of defense and anger.
I rationalize right now she will leave at least for some period of time. I have no expectation for her to stay


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## turnera

Go read up at the website and come back and tell us what you think.


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## disbelief

That's probably the sixth time i have read those steps. Rt now it feels like I need to do all of them which means i need to breathe and step back. 1. We just actually have evidence, 2. I can truly confront her. 3. I can re-disclose it to her sister and step dad the two that matter the most because they believe it is over. 
Her sister and step dad do not wish to see our marriage end. She hasn't gone to church in ages.

Then i would feel I were back at step 4 again. This time more ready to proceed with it. Hesitant i will be honest yes. But they are so confident we have no clue. If we just expose they will deny deny deny and deny some more.

So that is where my train of thought is. In the begining steps because they are believing we are clueless. So I would do steps 1-3 in an hour one morning next week.


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## turnera

It makes NO difference whether they deny or not. YOU know what they did, all their family/friends now know what they did, and continuing makes them virtual pariahs. 

Why would you only expose to 2 people? Aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, best friends, pastor...she needs to know that EVERYONE will know she's a cheater and chooses not to go back to her husband and do the honorable thing.

If you're not going to really expose to ALL her people - whether YOU think they will do anything or not is irrelevant; again, it is about her KNOWING they know, not what those people say or do. Got it? - then you may as well just tell her to stay with you and keep cheating, or start your divorce. It doesn't matter if she hasn't gone to church in ages, if she still has a pastor whom she knows and who knows her, who she will now know is AWARE of her cheating. See? It's HER INTERNAL issues we're striking at. Cheating is embarrassing. (or it would be, if you would stand up to her)

btw, you don't do ALL the steps. You do them in order and, if the last one didn't change anything, you then go on to the next.

Steps 1-3, ok, but remember to give it time to fester, once you have exposed. May take one day, may take 3 months, for her to 'get it.'


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## Tanelornpete

> I am afraid that if I expose the whole truth to my mother she will have a real cardiac issue, my dad .........may react violently and have a cardiac issue. They both have real health problems. My mom at the discussion of us having marital difficulties had a very negative response emotional and physical. And thats not amature eval I am medically trained, with long term experience.


You may be 'professionally' medically trained, but you miss out on a basic step in logic here: 

First, you declare that exposing the 'whole' truth to your mother or father will be fatal to them. It is really difficult for me to imagine anyone being able to expose the 'whole' truth to anyone - that is an awful lot of information to remember. I do recall one person on this forum who had many, many pages of information stored as evidence, but even that would not be the 'whole' truth.

In reality, the truth that they need to know is that your wife is having an affair, and that it will affect them, in that the marriage is ending. 

And strangely enough, your professional medical training has conveniently forgotten that this knowledge will become theirs when your wife leaves the family. Or when your brother in law leaves his family. Or the both leave their families. 

In what way will this be more medically safe for them? Dropping the news on them after the fact (still a surprise to them) or letting them know - with the possibility that they may have something to say about the deal - that may even save one or both marriages?

Your 'medical' opinion still sounds more like an excuse. Regardless, you are free to write your own program of action - there is always the chance it may work. You could keep doing step one or two over and over if you wish, all the while losing your wife. It is your choice of how to act. We are just giving you the steps to what we've seen work over and over.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Why would you only expose to 2 people? Aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, best friends, pastor...she needs to know that EVERYONE will know she's a cheater and chooses not to go back to her husband and do the honorable thing.
> 
> In my w's case there are really only her parents and sister. She has aunts and uncles and 8 years ago it would have made a difference but she is no longer in contact with any of them. Including her once very close cousin. She does not have a best friend she hangs with it is her sister. I suppose I could technically at this point involve work because I believe there is at least one email to OM from her work email.
> All the other times i considered these steps my head was not level at all. I am rereading Marriage Builders and Affaircare. how to end it and it is registering differently. Like it's the first time I have read it.
> 
> I still feel I need to confront her again, yes I know I already did. If I don't and I go right to...... say her parents I won't feel like I did all i could do.
> Exposing for me will still be a hard step to take. I have always felt what goes on in a marriage and family stays in a marriage/family so I am going outside my boundaries there. Maybe that has been part of my difficulty in grasping it.


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## F-102

You've done all any man could and more, I wish I had your patience. The world would probably be a better place if more took a page from your book. I know, some of my posts come off as being impatient with you, but stand strong, and stick to being true to yourself. In the end, I truly admire the way you are handling this.

On a lighter side, expose her to a relative with a big mouth-it will be all over hell's half acre before the day is out! It's like in any family: the 3 quickest forms of communication are telephone, telefax, tell Aunt Bernice!


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## disbelief

Thanks F 102. Can't explain my patience but its about run out. My core values are being pushed to far. I reread affaircare and MB Site a couple times last night. In regards to ending it. So I am preparing mentally and with whatever letters I choose to follow the steps unless some radical enlightenment happens.
she has an IC today I think he's helping her find her individual way but in the end she will choose her path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well yes some of you disagree but we are confronting with the new evidence at 1730 hrs. And then I will reclimb the 7 step ladder.


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## Powerbane

We're with you disbelief - we are and we're hoping everyday for your wife to come out of the fog or lose her pride enough to see what she is doing is not right. 

Good Luck - I know that either way you will be strong and survive. You've been through a lot of crap so far and are a better man.


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## Eli-Zor

Keep calm and stick to your script. Encourage the OM's wife to do the same. Assume this will not shock her or she may not care at all either way you then progress to the plan.

Wishing you well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Good luck. I will tell you my wife was not honest with her IC until after she decided to R. Until she reaches that point you can expect nothing real out of her mouth except small tidbits that show she is moving that way. I wouldn't expect that tonight. She will need time to let what you and the the other wife know to sink in.


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## disbelief

Confronted
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

How did she react? The OM's side?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Eli-Zor said:


> How did she react? The OM's side?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My W showed up here from her sisters. talked in the driveway with a third party in a vehicle as a witness. She had made an accusation in an email. She had a stunned surprised look on her face she did not deny she said she never lied about it which technically she did not because she would just never answer the questions. I stated the need to end contact my willingness to reconcile and repair. She said she cannot never contact him. She said she said the M is beyond repair. She doesn't see how we can fi. Then she went into all her complaints about the M issues. I left it on her. For her to decide if she wants to fix this.

She swears we have her being followed. Not!. She yelled its all recorded.

Have yet to hear from OM side

Time will tell again.


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## Affaircare

Disbelief, 

I just have two shorter-ish things to say to you. I do hope you realize that all of us here are behind you and doing our best to give you wisdom to most effectively end the affair so that you can move on to saving your marriage. Your marriage doesn't stand a chance and can not be fixed until the affair is OVER and those two are no longer in contact with each other. So before there can even be a chance of the fog clearing for her and before you two can work on building a happier, more loving marriage, the affair has to be completely O-V-E-R. 

The second thing I hope you recognize is some of the weird script that is likely to come out of her mouth when you and your sis do this joint confront. In simple terms you and your sis are saying to your spouses: "We know that you two are still in contact and you're trying to continue the affair but bury it deeper. It has to end now. So end the affair right now and return to the marriage, or shall I call your mom to come pick you up?" Right? In effect that's what a confrontation is. Now a normal person who's not fogged in and re-writing history to justify adultery might be embarrassed that they were caught red-handed and confess, or some get snappy and lash out defensively but then apologize--not disloyal spouses. About 99% of the time, rather than taking personal responsibility, they might say "We aren't doing the affair anymore; we're just helping each other work on our marriages" or "How DARE you invade my privacy and snoop through my emails!" and try to put the blame on you for what they're doing! Again this is similar to the exposure step when they say "How could you drag my name through the mud?" THEY are the one who's doing the inappropriate activity (not you)--all you're doing is verifying what is actually true and then saying the truth out loud. Thus, if they don't want you to find sexy emails the easy and obvious solution is to stop sending sexy emails to someone else! Likewise if they don't want you to tell close relatives they are committing adultery...stop committing adultery! See how easy that is? It's THEIR choice and THEIR behavior that's causing the problem, not you finding out and saying the truth out loud. 

So as you discuss with her, and as she flings fairly creative accusations at you trying to make it all your fault--okay there were some areas where you could have done better, but it's HER choice to continue being unfaithful. Don't let her attempts to blame you detract from that, okay? 

To save the marriage, the affair MUST end. If she's not willing to end the affair, then it is not up to her to take her time to make up her mind. Tell her: "Tonight, make the move to end it or make the move to your lover's house until you're willing to be 100% faithful to me."


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## michzz

Someone refusing to state the truth of their affair when asked directly by their spouse is too LYING.

It's called a lie of omission.

She doesn't get any points for not lying. Her whole life is a lie.



disbelief said:


> ...She had a stunned surprised look on her face she did not deny she said she never lied about it which technically she did not because she would just never answer the questions...


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## disbelief

Thanks affaircare I get it. MICHZZ ..... she gets no points she was trying a weak defense for not lying. I believe my words we " you choose fix the marriage or your 'friend'" she did not deny that the emotional affair was not over for her. Just heard from OM W. My W deny's anymore pa OM deny's anymore PA. Dont know when I will hear from her again she is staying at her sisters.

OMW reports he filled trash bags with his stuff and left for work saying he was not coming back. 

However he just was calling her. OMW wants to call his brother now and disclose the whole situation I said go ahead. OMW actually concerned for OM safety. 

I feel better whole load off my mind. Now I guess my W really needs to make up her mind. She really thinks she was getting away with it. She is paranoid she is being followed. Believes I am berating her to the world. I don't know.

So thats where we are for now. Now I have to think of the next step, this is exhausting.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Typical for this point including her saying it can't be fixed. This was the stage with my wife where I insisted on no contact but told her I still loved her and felt we could have a stronger relationship if she just tried. It took her about three to four weeks to come around. Give it a chance to sink in and show her willingness to change for the better in terms of communicating and especially listening.


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## disbelief

text conversation

W: between disbelief and the OMW you have no idea what we have truly done

Dis: So why don't you tell me

W: No going to sleep

Dis: I see how the whole thing is my fault

W: Didn't say that think what u want
dis: What exactly is your point?

W: I am going to sleep Not replying anymore.
Dis: You tell me how i am wrong for telling my wife who I still love that I would like her to end her affair and come back to the marriage. It is your choice to continue to be unfaithful. To save any marriage an affair must end
I love you and our marriage and family but it will only work with 100% faithfulness to each other.

I did not seek evidence it was handed to me.

W: Doesn't matter anymore

Dis: If this was joe schmoes wife same scenario would have played out.

Dis: Why doesn't it matter?

Dis: Doesn't matter??????? Sorry u feel that way.

W no responses
---------------------------------------------------------------

So now what???


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## disbelief

It's like my W has the fatal attraction. I blocked her phone from receiving his emails and she called him at work. OM called home to OMW (even though he is now completly done with his M) He tols OMW that my W called his work. He supposedly told her to leave him the F**** alone. 
Ahhhh well where is the lie filter, Nothing like warming up to the New Year.

And why does the sick parent always get sicker at times like this. OM mother worse now in ICU. And I know her too and she was always good to me. Can the pile get any deeper.

OM sent email to Me, my W and his W below.

So here it is. My apology. I am sorry that I used the three of you to my own benefit. Family, housing, friendship, sex and marriage. You may choose which ones apply to each of you. I have lied to and manipulated all of you. I wish I could go back and change what caused this to happen. I can’t. So I am putting an end to all the mystery of who is talking to OM. The answer is no one. I will NOT talk to, text, email, respond to, or answer phone calls from any of you, your respective children or other family members. I do not want to hear from you guys or about you guys. You all need to move on and so do I. Again let me say whole heartedly I love all of you guys and I am sorry.

signed
OM


----------



## rome2012

disbelief said:


> It's like my W has the fatal attraction. I blocked her phone from receiving his emails and she called him at work. OM called home to OMW (even though he is now completly done with his M) He tols OMW that my W called his work. He supposedly told her to leave him the F**** alone.
> Ahhhh well where is the lie filter, Nothing like warming up to the New Year.
> 
> And why does the sick parent always get sicker at times like this. OM mother worse now in ICU. And I know her too and she was always good to me. Can the pile get any deeper.
> 
> OM sent email to Me, my W and his W below.
> 
> So here it is. My apology. I am sorry that I used the three of you to my own benefit. Family, housing, friendship, sex and marriage. You may choose which ones apply to each of you. I have lied to and manipulated all of you. I wish I could go back and change what caused this to happen. I can’t. So I am putting an end to all the mystery of who is talking to OM. The answer is no one. I will NOT talk to, text, email, respond to, or answer phone calls from any of you, your respective children or other family members. I do not want to hear from you guys or about you guys. You all need to move on and so do I. Again let me say whole heartedly I love all of you guys and I am sorry.
> 
> signed
> OM


Wow....you might see it differently but I think this is an advantage for you !!!!!!

If he's true to his word and really does not want contact to any of you anymore (I'm sorry for his wife though) then this might help your wife to see the light !!!!!

Btw....when was the email from OM sent and when the texting with your wife ??? Which one came first ???


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## disbelief

Texting with my wife first.


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## rome2012

disbelief said:


> Texting with my wife first.


I would say this really could turn into an advantage for you !!!!!!!


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## disbelief

Time will only tell he is an excellent liar.


----------



## rome2012

disbelief said:


> Time will only tell he is an excellent liar.


So what's your next step ????


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## disbelief

Well watch the reactions. MC this week adress some of the goings on of late. Give my W the draft seperation agreement she was supposed to do that I did. Climb the 7 step ladder I guess get more advice here.

My w will prob move out this week, my best guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

I mean this sincerely, disbelief--if I were in your shoes I wouldn't give her the chance to decide. I would tell her that her lack of choosing FOR the family and marriage *is* a choice, and that her things will be packed and in the garage. She can pick them up tomorrow night and give you the keys to the house when she picks up her things. 

I would also mention one thing. Take a look at your text exchange. She said several times "I'm going to bed. Not responding anymore" which is a pretty clear way of saying, "I do not want to talk anymore"...yet each time your disregarded her statement and sent a text reply anyway, and each one of those was pretty much a barb to try to get her to reply! **THAT* right there* is precisely the game (I call it "the dance") we keep talking to you about. You tell us that you are the one who remains calm and she provokes the "fighting" but a) tonight she said several times she was going to bed and didn't want to text anymore and b) YOU provoked HER. This begs to differ from the way you paint the picture! So when we tell you that you need to stop dancing the dance...there's a perfect example of dancing, and in this example you are the one taking the lead. And THIS is precisely the kind of behavior that is something you need to learn to recognize on your own...and then learn how to stop it. 

Okay? So good job on confronting her. It sounds like your sis (OMW) is doing some disclosing as well. Now, you can not control your W or "make" her end this affair, but you ABSOLUTELY CAN control you. And *you* can stop the roller coaster of affairland by setting your boundary clearly: "I love you. I committed to you. I want to work on this marriage. But I will accept nothing less than 100% of your affection and loyalty. Until you will forsake all others for me, you're out and the kids and I will be here in the marital home. When you're ready to give me 100%, come see me."


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## 8yearscheating

This was actually the the first full revealing of the affair and her reaction is exactly what my wife did. She see's no hope for the M because she can't understand why you want to R. She also can't think straight with her emotions - she is in shock mentally just like physical shock from a traumatic injury. You are being very confrontational about it which only leads her to believe that will be the way things will stay - confrontational. At this point, I had to COMPLETELY back off and not try to force discussion until my WS was ready to talk. It was VERY hard to do this. I will say again, your chances of R go down dramatically if she moves out and at a minimum the time required to R goes up dramatically. Give it time to sink. She is in a severe state of shock and mourning at this point. I wouldn't push for anything until some of that doom and gloom subsides. NO pushing conversations or actions, just you doing your best to be the better man. I know I go against the very core of the steps on this board. I also know my plan worked faster and with the end result I wanted - R. It would also help if she were on anti-depressants. Just my two cents worth.


----------



## disbelief

Well she called this AM to talk to the kids because she has to sleep before working tonight. Before hanging up I asked if she had anything to talk about she said no and then went on for about a half hour. She said how what we did yesterday probably destroyed any chance of fixing the M's because they were decreasing the contact naturally. (uh huh) and that eventually it would have stopped (yeah ok). So that went into there is no chance to recover this marriage, should I (my W) just go away for a while far away and change jobs or just away locally. What would be best for the kids I said what do you think. She said if you don't want to destroy me as a person I need time and space. I said well you need to decide and if you leave that is your choice. She once again brought up all the negative marriage things. Things she wants to do differently which are reasonable (she could have mentioned them before her A). So I left the door open for Reconcilliation. Reminded her I loved her, she stated she doesn't deserve anyone at all. 
Her and OM have had contact since yesterday don't know how much.
Our whole discussion from yesterday is on video with her acknowledging me recording it and not telling me to turn it off. (droid)

She admitted she was in the EA but did not express remorse except to the damage and pain she is suffering.

My W still doing the bills. New account next week.

OM got drunk on his way home and is passed out at brothers house his brother thinks it's a joke.
OMW opened new account OM planning to just leave.

Thats the summary


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## Eli-Zor

You and the OMW have to hang int here, the only people who will now stop the affair is themselves. Do not facilitate it.


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## disbelief

Eli I think I am at emotional brain drain because I cannot even think of what actions would facilitate it. Yeah brain not processing that rt now. So I would welcome the figurative slap in the head for the obvious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz

disbelief said:


> She said if you don't want to destroy me as a person I need time and space. I said well you need to decide and if you leave that is your choice.


She's going to stay on this script to the bitter end. Yeah, it's your fault--still!

Amazing.


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## disbelief

Yup she was still laying blame on me with the occaisional leaning towards maybe fixing the M. The only time she shut up was when the conversation led to her life accomplishments and I told her how proud of her I was for those things. Strange timing but it fit the talk. She is still looking for me to tell her to leave the kids. I said u decide how far u go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

She said how what we did yesterday probably destroyed any chance of fixing the M's because they were decreasing the contact naturally. (uh huh) and that eventually it would have stopped (yeah ok). 

:scratchhead: Hasn't she said that one before???

All FOG-BABBLE!

Just take a step back and let it rest for a bit.


----------



## disbelief

michzz said:


> She's going to stay on this script to the bitter end. Yeah, it's your fault--still!
> 
> Amazing.


yup she is staying on that. I am not letting up she wants me to decide for her she asked me what would be better her close by or far away for a certain period of time. I put that back on her. The blame game why am I even considering still reconciling.........the new year begins with soul searching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Like I said, she is still not ready to try though there is a glimmer of hope in her attitude. She is feeling liek there isn't a chance because she feels you deserve better or in other words, she knows she was wrong and has severelly wronged you - an obtuse way of saying it. Relax, give it time.


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## disbelief

Now that you say that she has repeatedly said that she is not worthy of anyone and thatg she is nothing special swears there no way I still love her. And that I can be so much happier with someone else who is better than her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

I totally agree with 8yrs!

Just continue to set the consistent example disbelief. Let's see if her pride will weaken enough to let you through. 

God bless and here's to a happier 2011
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

She's trying to make herself look as good as possible, like she is making such a huge sacrifice for you and that she is "unselfishly" letting you go to find a better person.
Hang in there, bud. Keep the straight and even keel.


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## disbelief

To think this time last year ther was none of this stuff going on. Thank you all for your support. Happy New Year sure hope it's better than the end of 2010
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rome2012

disbelief said:


> To think this time last year there was none of this stuff going on. Thank you all for your support. Happy New Year sure hope it's better than the end of 2010
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope for a better 2011 for all of us !!!!!!!!

:smthumbup:


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## disbelief

Well new years off to a bang of a start. OMW just called he claims to have taken out out plus restraining orders against our family members for no contact and set. Up so omw cannot even goto funeral. Filed through a lawyer. He is drunk. Claims to have walked across a lake hoping ice would break. Said he told his mom in ICU and she smacked him. Told his brothers. Threatening to disappear. Told OMW to use the system if need be 911 that is police/EMS.

My w at work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

His behaviour is a joke, he is looking for sympathy . You try get a restaining order on New Years eve. He seeks sympahy-time he grew up and faced up to his actions. He had an affair and now be is trying to guilt everyone. I hope your wife sees him in this state and understands what she has been saved from
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Btw. Do support your sister, the man who is doing all this is the evil twin of her husband, he is seeking to change the processes. All she can do is be strong, if she has to she may go to the police and file that he is drunk and threatening his own life, a few of these reports can enable her, is he continues to behave badly , to take steps to protect her children. She does not want a man who is in this state of mind putting his life and her childrens at risk. Imagine him taking them out for the day she will be worried sick.

She is is Plan A however if he calls her with those statements she must ignor his calls until he stops as his intent is to manipulate her. It is a form of control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Is it just me, but it seems OM is really taking this hard? Like he was the one doing all the persuing and now his happy little cake eating world has finally come crashing in upon him. Could it be that your last confrontation with your wife and the OMW with him are imploding the fantasy bubble?

Hang in there - the roller coaster is still going through the tight loop section!

You're definitely more of a man than that SOB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Ok minimal contact with my W since she is working tonight she wont tell me where she is prob her sisters to sleep. .........Realization: this is emotionally painful for me but I suddenly realize the value of maintaining ones personal integrity when faced with those challenging life decisions. I can look in the mirror and not be ashamed of myself.

Feedback question: am I plan A again letting this sink in on her working on plan b.


And good idea or bad idea: activate old cell phone for kids to contact mom?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

You are in Plan A still, if she does not contact you that is her issue. 

No changes to anything as yet, Plan B is a big step so do not go there unless you are emotionally drained, you need time to fill your wife's lovebank and let her see what a great husband you are.


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## disbelief

Well W tried sleeping in her vehicle. After her shift guess it didn't work out she ende up home. Me out with kids having a great new years day. Granpa came too. 
My would barely look me in the eye and planned to be gone before we got home what does that say?

OMW said they spent all night talking he told his family of the A he did do paperwork for Restraining orders. He might cancel them because lawyer was gonna do monday. I told OMW to have him keep them going especially on my W to not contact him. Once again time will tell and I am soul searching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> Well new years off to a bang of a start. OMW just called he claims to have taken out out plus restraining orders against our family members for no contact and set. Up so omw cannot even goto funeral. Filed through a lawyer. He is drunk. Claims to have walked across a lake hoping ice would break. Said he told his mom in ICU and she smacked him. Told his brothers. Threatening to disappear. Told OMW to use the system if need be 911 that is police/EMS.


My advice: quit focusing on the Other Man. Ignore him, your marriage is more important than the childish behavior of someone _outside your marriage_. Quit obsessing with him, forget him, expunge the thought of him out of your mind. 

That's something you can do later, after you resolve your marriage situation. That is _far more important_. 

As for your wife: she is deep in fog, her actions will also be erratic, irrational, and pointless. Ignore that. 

Instead, focus on your marriage. Focus on your kids, and learn more about you. The more calm you become, the more rational, the stronger you become, the more you will become a beacon that will show your wife where _home_ is.

Whether she chooses to head there or not is her choice; your job is to make it the ideal place to live. And that means stopping all Love Busters (such as the incredibly massive 'Disrespectful Judgments' of that text exchange you posted a couple of days ago.) Ending Love Busters/Extinguishers is _far_ more important right now than building love (Kindlers/Emotional Needs). It is useless to try to build a love bank in someone if you keep robbing the bank on a daily basis. 

Here's something you CAN do that can be very helpful:

Take this quiz, and then learn about the results. It will help you become more competent in all you do, which is a necessity.

Stay the course, stay in plan A.


----------



## disbelief

Will do, wasn't obsessing just figured I would throw in the update since it is all so closely related. Will look at the quiz thanks as always.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Agree with Powerbane-I've been saying that about the W for awhile. They seem to be coming to the realization that if they indeed go through with their affair plans, it is not going to be like a romantic beach on a tropical paradise, more like the beaches of Normandy, like in "Saving Private Ryan".


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## disbelief

F 102. Nice reference. 
Here my mind wanders to our upcoming MC appointment and I feel like I don't even know where to begin when we sit down in the office. I have a draft seperation agreement. Do I bring up the terms to return to the M transparency etc?
Unsure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Wow the W finally made it home from her third shift really late. And the WOW is for how bitter and angry she is I asked her where she was going to sleep this week she wouldn't even directly answer that she said she would sleep in her car I said your choice, calmly, she says at least i have a choice in something. This info I need for taking care of the kids. The thing is she has enough money she has been stashing to go rent a place rt now for a couple months. She doesn't know I know that. Of course she has nothing to talk about. I suppose this is. "Fog"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I wouldn't bother withe seperation agreement. Again, just tell her you still love her and can eventually get over the A if she comes home and agrees to transparency and really working toward reconciliation. You can also tell her you don't feel that she is worthless and not worthy of a second chance if she's serious about trying. Ball is in her court. NO CONFRONTATION or questions about the affair from you at this point. Save that for when she is serious about R.


----------



## disbelief

I am trying to figure out my agenda for the MC meeting. We have these things that have happened. She filed D, We are suppossed to do a seperation agreement. Only two more weeks till the D papers expire because I have not been served. She would have to refile. I want to mention the fact that she acts very depressed, quick to get angry her history of postpartum her grampas history of bipolar, just to get another proffessional to address it. I did not plan on an ultimatum. Her very active actions to buy a house. Her discussions of worthlessness and how their is nothing to fix or how it is possible. 

I also figured it would be a good time to discuss my boundaries and the transparency requirement to recover/reconcile. When and if she recommits to this M.

OMW contacted me Restraining orders are for real he may stop his plan for the entire family OMW is going to encourage him to keep the one against my W. She restarted contact. Suppossedly they did have 2-3 weeks with NC.

Trying to Plan A it.

Thanks a million all.


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## michzz

Be prepared to get divorce papers serves soon, maybe even at the MC appointment.


----------



## disbelief

She goofed filing them so unless she corrected that this past thursday. I am ready to get them. I almost feel ready to tell her to go. But then I would be making that decision for her. That would be to easy if I told her to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

So tell her. Until now, you've been letting HER indecision and infidelity control YOU.


----------



## disbelief

102 Yeah I might see what my heart gut and soul searching reveals this week. Will get to the MC appoint first that's wed.

We are back to her repeated script as well. Waiting on the house to buy, maybe if I move out you can come over we. Can talk........ you can do everything your perfect way without me ......see the kids are better off with u. And she accussed. Me of being negative......I think she is in the angry insane fog. 

The complaints about the M is that usually the fog? Is that some passive aggressive way of expressing the desire to save the M. Because why complain about it if you don't want to fix or change it. And any question that would bring closure for example. So are u done with this M? She will not respond too. 
So I end up feeling like whatever.




_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

The negative comments contain a grain of truth of what she would to see changed. WHen I reread my wife's lovebusters questionaire after we were reconciling and again seeing a marriage encounter, she told me 95% were written with an extremely negative attitude she had at the time and she didn't feel that now. Do look for the things you can change to show her you are serious. The rest is justification for her. Stick to your plan and TRY really hard to reduce the negatives and stick to a positive future discussion.
BE THE BETTER CHOICE


----------



## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> The negative comments contain a grain of truth of what she would to see changed. WHen I reread my wife's lovebusters questionaire after we were reconciling and again seeing a marriage encounter, she told me 95% were written with an extremely negative attitude she had at the time and she didn't feel that now. Do look for the things you can change to show her you are serious. The rest is justification for her. Stick to your plan and TRY really hard to reduce the negatives and stick to a positive future discussion.
> BE THE BETTER CHOICE


 She is full of negative comments. I could argue so many of them because they are coming out so inaccurate but I know it is pointless right now. I admit to a poor memory so a VAR is my friend. She started a conversation this morning and it ended up rolling for about an hour. She went from wanting to seperate phone lines so I can't look, saying transparency is taking away her freedom. Anything that could be turned negative about our M was. She is angry, says she trusts no one. Says I even turned the teenager against her (they were chatting fine tonight). She still wants to move out so I said go. She said she is waiting on the house. Tonight I printed some rental ads. Affordable decent ones I thought I would give them to her, Good or bad idea? 
I asked her if she wanted me to have a seperation agreement ready for our MC appointment, (MC said she would review with us) my W said no. She doesn't know whats going on with the house she is attempting to buy, because she hasn't heard. 

Does this all just say confused female or what.

Strangely I feel i will be fine if we D or if she decides she really wants to recommit. I am starting to lose the desire to want to fight for the M.

So is this still fog talk.
No signs of contact with OM.


----------



## Tanelornpete

> She is full of negative comments. I could argue so many of them because they are coming out so inaccurate but I know it is pointless right now.


That is pretty much always pointless. If people are truly communicating, they will verify their impressions and intuitions with their spouse, meaning that incorrect assumptions will be rooted out with both parties working together. The desire to point out how incorrect the other person is indicates that the two parties are working against each other, rather than with. Its much more important to let her speak, letting the inaccuracies wash past you, and at the same time listening, because buried inside the statements are kernels of truth, which will be available later, should the time come to work over this.



> She still wants to move out so I said go. She said she is waiting on the house. Tonight I printed some rental ads. Affordable decent ones I thought I would give them to her, Good or bad idea?


Very good idea. In fact, why not get some boxes and pack up a lot of her stuff? 



> She doesn't know whats going on with the house she is attempting to buy, because she hasn't heard.





> Does this all just say confused female or what.


No, this is the dance, the game. She expects you to step right along, but has no real goals in mind, other than to engage you. Back out, call her bluffs, and insist that she either stick with them, or drop them. 



> So is this still fog talk.


Possible, and likely. It takes some time for the fog to pass...


----------



## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> That is pretty much always pointless. If people are truly communicating, they will verify their impressions and intuitions with their spouse, meaning that incorrect assumptions will be rooted out with both parties working together. The desire to point out how incorrect the other person is indicates that the two parties are working against each other, rather than with. Its much more important to let her speak, letting the inaccuracies wash past you, and at the same time listening, because buried inside the statements are kernels of truth, which will be available later, should the time come to work over this





_Well she was communicating a world of negative at me. I did let it fly I figure it needs to come out. It is useful info and at this point itt doesn't bother me If she could actually hear herself she would not believe what she was saying._


[/QUOTE]

Very good idea. In fact, why not get some boxes and pack up a lot of her stuff? [/QUOTE]



_ I was going to start with handing her printouts of local affordable apartments that even fit her needs ( already printed) should I give them tomorrow or WED at MC .......HMMMM, I am losing my nice guy._



[/QUOTE]


No, this is the dance, the game. She expects you to step right along, but has no real goals in mind, other than to engage you. Back out, call her bluffs, and insist that she either stick with them, or drop them. [/QUOTE]

I have been calling her bluffs by directly questioning them. So I should tell her to make her move or quit complaining about being in this house.


----------



## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> That is pretty much always pointless. If people are truly communicating, they will verify their impressions and intuitions with their spouse, meaning that incorrect assumptions will be rooted out with both parties working together. The desire to point out how incorrect the other person is indicates that the two parties are working against each other, rather than with. Its much more important to let her speak, letting the inaccuracies wash past you, and at the same time listening, because buried inside the statements are kernels of truth, which will be available later, should the time come to work over this..


Well she was communicating a world of negative at me. I did let it fly I figure it needs to come out. It is useful info and at this point itt doesn't bother me If she could actually hear herself she would not believe what she was saying



Tanelornpete said:


> Very good idea. In fact, why not get some boxes and pack up a lot of her stuff?.



_ I was going to start with handing her printouts of local affordable apartments that even fit her needs ( already printed) should I give them tomorrow or WED at MC .......HMMMM, I am losing my nice guy._





Tanelornpete said:


> No, this is the dance, the game. She expects you to step right along, but has no real goals in mind, other than to engage you. Back out, call her bluffs, and insist that she either stick with them, or drop them..




I have been calling her bluffs by directly questioning them. Then she usually does not respond. So I should tell her to make her move or quit complaining about being in this house


----------



## 8yearscheating

Personally, I would not support in any way her moving out and would not enable her decision by suggesting she should go. I would clearly state it's not what you want and that if she does, the ods or reconciling go down down dramatically according to statistics. It's the easy way out not the best way to start resolving yours or her issues. I wouldn't giveher rentals or a seperation agreement either. I know you are losing hope. TIME my friend will be needed for her to start moving the fog and grieving she is doing about the loss of the OM and the destruction she has sown. As tanelornpete has suggested, stop doing the dance with her and replying or pointing out her errors in describing her M. Stick to active listening , paraphrasing and repeating back what she says.


----------



## disbelief

Thanks for the encouragement 8, I guess I will try to regain some patience. She has just been so ready to go I found at least 6 places she could be in by next week. Her opinion is that is the only way to reconcile.

I am trying to decide what I want to address at MC tomorrow. What has gone on? Ways to fix this because W can't see that. The fact she filed. Should I definitly address what my boundaries and Needs as in transparency would be for reestablishing this M. 

My gut feeling is gone rt now.

OMW said he stopped the one for all the family was looking into redoing the paperwork just on my W.

Time ok focus on me kids and time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

disbelief said:


> I am starting to lose the desire to want to fight for the M.


That's why the MB plan advocates that you Plan A no longer than 2 or 3 months before you Plan B or separate; if you drag it out while she continues to harm you, you will stop loving her.


----------



## disbelief

Looks like I better start planning plan b then. D day was 3 months ago. I was plan A before I knew it. Any advice for MC appointment? ? Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

I think what you need to bring up is why you think this can be saved. Right now she does not see this being fixed because her self esteem has probably been shattered as well as her fairy tale thinking about how much better her life would be after the affair. The other thing is the being dumped and OM finally (I hope) getting the message and wanting to reconcile with his wife. 

So now your wife is probably thinking that ok - I chose the OM over my husband and I hurt him(you) terribly, how can I ever live with that fact and him (you) ever wanting me back and loving me ever again. She can't see how she could be lovable due to her past actions. You somehow need to break through that and show her. 

I think thats what you need to bring up during the MC.


----------



## disbelief

Thanks I planned on going with a note to myself because my thoughts keep turning very negative. I had been focused on the confronting we did and now I feel like what next even with everyones advice. So I just want the hour to be productive
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> Thanks I planned on going with a note to myself because my thoughts keep turning very negative. I had been focused on the confronting we did and now I feel like what next even with everyones advice. So I just want the hour to be productive
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good idea to write it down so that way you can go point by point and help guide the session. 

Good luck disbelief.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 8yearscheating

Now that the A is over, I think you need to give it time. The situation has changed dramatically. I know your losing hope. All I can say is I was too and now that my has returned things are as good as they were when we were first married. We are still working through issues together and me on my own issues with the A. But our relationship is stronger and improving. It can get better. Hold on. Focus the session on what you need to progress with R like a NC letter and a commitment to TRY and why you feel it's still possible. Then ask the MC why is it she can't seem to see the future possibilities for M. He should try to get to her answer and try to address why she is so negative.


----------



## disbelief

I still need to see if it stays over. Its only been 5 days since confronting. No signs of contact and again she is acting like withdrawal but we will see. Thanks for the guidance everyone more is welcome. MC t
last time ended up being about money and discussing how to seperate assets and her moving out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Sounds more like "_Divorce_ as opposed to _Marriage_ Counseling.

Good luck!


----------



## disbelief

Thanks I am going to try to lead this time W lead last appointment

I can honestly say I am very tempted to give her the apartment printouts. I suppose I can keep it verbal. We are actually going to be driving together her cars in the shop she said cancel I said we could ride together she didn't argue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Well finished the MC appointment like I said she is more of a coach to where she thinks u r heading than helping fix. I forced discussion about possible recovery then my W went off about M problems after she had clearly stated she was done. 
I asked the question if she was done with me and my W would not answer she looked at the MC and said I have answered that I said no you have never directly answered the question. So she finally did and said yes she is done. Now at home she just compared our M to an allergic reaction and the need to get away from some thing that is causing a bad situation. Then she always throws in some vague comment about having coffee together or later getting back tigether but she doesn't want to be married now. She wants a friend I thought I had been she says I just made her my wife she was no longer my friend. So she sticks with being done. She still doesn't know about when I will be served if her house is going to go through. But we ar going to renew ___ membership. All the things she says she wants changed could be done within the marriage. She doesn't want to do transparency right now.

We grocery shopped after the appointment. She was sad faced head down walking behind me avoiding eye contact almost the whole time. 

Why would a WW bother venting about the M if she was done? Why complain about something If you don't want to try to fix it? Am I that thick or what?

She said she needs the space and she has maintained that since end of september I don't think she is going to change.

I hope the D paperwork does expire then she has to rethink the whole process. I also hope the A stays NC. Unless of course they are underground. No signs of It. Maybe I think it is just time for her to go. 

How long do I limbo?


She says she trusts no one right now doesn't believe I can still love her. Believes I am going to rake her over the coals in Divorce proceeedings. She says if she is being nice is just to be nice and there is nothing there. If I force it she will move out. I did not in the MC appointment we are 5 days past confronting. She still says the A was dying naturally. I honestly think this MC did not know what to do with all the A talk. I do not know if I can convince W to goto a more pro marraige councillor. I think I need to give it time before i ask her. 

No signs of OM contact. I did not want to raise my kids in a divorced family. I wish the W would read a book on the subject. I bet she still hopes for the A. She does not even want to bump into me at this point.

So how do I behave now. My thoughts just went blank. I want my family whole not a step mom. My wife their mom. 

Do I plan A. Seperate with hope or plan for reconcilliation?


So I truly feel that I am at the point of let her go she has finally been that straight foward. She just said if she does not leave this house she is going to lose herself. Mentally/physically ( which confuses me because if she is at that point shouldn't she go now). 

She stated she does not want to be married now she does not want anyone over her. I never saw it that way. 
I just told her I always saw us as a team and there are so many possible ways to fix this. She started tearing up. 

Sorry so long off to my IC. Pile on and advise me please.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Did you do step one, Gather Evidence? 
~Yes. Then you move to step two

Did you do step two, Confront her directly and ask her to stop?
~Yes. 
Did she stop?
~Hard to say. In the past confronts, no. For this most recent one, maybe. If the affair starts up again, and I suspect it will, you would go to step three. 

Step three is Disclose. That's where you inform one person who is likely to have some influence in her life, such as a parent or a mentor--someone who might encourage her to do the right thing and return to the marriage. 

HOWEVER, here's what I see happening. Right now the affair is not going on. She is going to go through withdrawal type feelings because while the affair was happening, her brain chemistry was getting a -zing- of natural amphetamine. See this article - The Chemistry of Love - for a little more info on that. So to end the affair, she basically has to withstand amphetamine withdrawal just like an addict would. 

In her head, she rewrote history and made you entirely the bad guy in order to justify her affair. So now she has no -affair zing- of chemistry, and you are an utterly horrible, miserable person to be with...so she is saying, "I don't see hope of fixing this" because in her head she left the fun of feeling good (love amphetamine) to come back to what was so horrible it drove her to commit adultery! 

YOUR CHALLENGE is to recognize that maybe about 2% of what she says is wrong with the marriage, is true. There are some things you did to contribute to making the marriage vulnerable to an affair, such as working long hours, being controlling, or using her anger as an excuse to unleash your own anger. I care for you, disbelief, enough to say that you have demonstrated here on this site some pretty strong stubbornness and controlling behavior (trying to control her, your sister, and your BIL). So back in the day when we were telling you to Plan A/Carrot & Stick, the idea was for you to recognize the areas you need to work on, actually work on them, and demonstrate to her that you can behave differently! That would include NOT poking and prodding her by texting, STOPPING the dance (aka "the game")...all those kinds of things. And we were telling you that so that when *THIS* day came--the day when she was in withdrawal and feeling pretty crummy just from that part--that she'd be able to look at your behavior over the last couple months and say "Huh...well I have seen some change in him. Maybe he can do it and we won't be miserable." 

So it is imperative that you stop focusing on her and start focusing on you. If she is done, I see no reason to not pack her up and let her go now, but I've been telling you that for weeks. Right now, her affair has really "cost" her nothing. But in order to REALLY PULL OUT OF IT, it is not a request--you are going to have to demonstrate to her a new way of treating her and the ability to be her friend...on her side. So at this point it really is somewhat up to you. I mean, she may or may not even notice because she's fairly far gone, but if you really want to save your marriage, you are going to HAVE TO start working on you and consistently showing her you can be different. If you can not do that, you will lose her.


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## Tanelornpete

> How long do I limbo?


Although I refer to it as a game, using the 'dance' metaphor is just as relevant. You should have stopped long, long, _long_ ago. As long as you remain in the dance, you continue the destruction of your marriage. 

Some notes:



> She said she needs the space and she has maintained that since end of september I don't think she is going to change.


Has she been saying that for her entire life? If not, then there was a point where she was NOT saying this, and then one day she 'changed' [I assume her mind] and began saying something else. So how do you 'know' that she won't change again? Change is something people do all the time.



> She still doesn't know about when I will be served if her house is going to go through. But we ar going to renew ___ membership.


1) NO, do NOT, but with ONE exception, renew _ANY_ "memberships". The exception is if she returns to the _marriage_ (not 'stays in the house'). 

Do this instead: renew it FOR YOU ALONE. Let her get her own membership. She is desperate to be single - _give her a danged taste of it_. She loses the privileges of marriage if she deserts her family.

2) She 'doesn't know' when you'll be served...or when the house will come through... This is part of the GAME, the DANCE. Empty words are meaningless - don't pursue that avenue any more. I suspect this argument keeps her 'hate my life' momentum going. Moreover, keeping up an argument day after day after day after day after say after day after day after day...is a _Love Buster_ of enormous proportions.

And you still can't figure out why she is so 'confused'?



> ...I forced discussion about possible recovery then my W went off about M problems after she had clearly stated she was done. I asked the question if she was done with me and my W would not answer she looked at the MC and said I have answered that I said no you have never directly answered the question. So she finally did and said yes she is done...


Here is the gist of your part in the dance:

First off, the choice of words a person uses is often indicative of the way that the communicate with the subject of their statements: in this case, the use of the word 'forces'. "Forced" is a combative word - implying violence. My advice is that you begin to find ways to change your vocabulary - as you change that, you'll begin to think of ways that match your words, for example, instead of "...I forced discussion about possible recovery..." how about "...I brought up the topic of recovery..." Note as well that I left the word 'possibility out' - that may well be the case, but your task is to seek recovery, clear and simple. Adding 'escape clauses' leaves endless avenues for excuses, etc.

Now the game: 

1. You bring up recovery
2. Your wife _clearly states_ that she is done.
3. She then 'goes off' on problems in the marriage (in other words, arguing her case for why she is 'clearly done'. 
4. You ask the if she is done. (I dunno - look at line 2!)
5. You say she won't answer your question.
6. She looks at the MC (for verification that at least one person in the room had heard her) and says 'I have answered that'
7. You say "no you have never 'directly' answered that question."
8. So she answers it again - "Yes I am done"

You heard her answer your question 'clearly' (that is, in completely understandable terms) at the _start_ of the exchange, and then you proceed to go into a 'yes I didn't', 'no you didn't' 'uh huh' 'no way' 'o huh' format.

This is a dance - round and round and round. That sort of argument is a _Love Buster_, a _Love Extinguisher_ and it undoes _any_ sort of effort you may have put into the marriage!

And you still can't figure out why she want to leave?



> Why would a WW bother venting about the M if she was done? Why complain about something If you don't want to try to fix it? Am I that thick or what?


Most likely because as long as she can keep the argument going, she will gather her strength of resolve to go ahead with what she has been considering.

_That is why it is imperative that right now you end the game and stop ALL, not just SOME Love Busters/Extinguishers_ Exit the argument, don't speak of it, don't push it. Instead, go directly to actions. She plays the 'I'm leaving you card' repeatedly. 

CALL HER ON THAT. It seems to me that she doesn't really want to leave, or even divorce. If she REALLY wanted this, _*it would be done by now*_! The reason we keep bringing up the idea of packing her stuff and moving her out is because this will create the necessity of really looking at her words as a reality, rather than the fantasy of the game. 

I know 8years is against such an action because, hey - she might just take you up on that. She has already _clearly stated_ this (twice in a matter of minutes at the 'MC' today!). If she is honestly planning on this, then it is bound to happen anyway, and 8years can't change her mind at all. 

On the other hand - _even if she does move out_ she may find out that this is not the answer she was seeking. I say this with one caveat: you have to be avoiding Love Busters/Extinguishers with as much gusto as you avoid ironing your face. If you keep up with the dance, it would be foolish of her to remain with you! She needs someone to love her, not fight with her at every turn! So do you!

The reason we keep advising you to call her bluff (and I don't mean 'get into a battle of wits every time she says something) is because it will cause her to realistically evaluate what she has been threatening, and at the same time it will show her that YOU are changing as well.



> I honestly think this MC did not know what to do with all the A talk. I do not know if I can convince W to goto a more pro marraige councillor. I think I need to give it time before i ask her.


I am not sure why you are going to a MC at all (you really have no marriage at this time on which to work, and a Marriage Counselor, _no matter how good_ cannot convince someone to do anything. They cannot work magic, they can't fix your problems, they can't 'make' your wife return to the marriage - none of that! THAT is something only you and your wife can do. All an MC can do is help you work on it...but it must be _together_. 

Still, why not just find another one. Its your marriage, is it not? If your wife refuses to go (why go to one and not another?) then so be it. You would do better right now with an IC anyway.



> She just said if she does not leave this house she is going to lose herself. Mentally/physically ( which confuses me because if she is at that point shouldn't she go now).


Rambling nonsense. Body parts gonna disappear if she 'stays' in the house? She gonna change her accent? It is absolutely impossible to lose ones self, ever. You are you, and you are no one else. No matter where you go, there you are. What she is saying is that she isn't getting what she 'wants' where she is right now. That was the reason for her affair!

Unfortunately, she won't get that somewhere else, either. But she will only learn that by chasing after phantasms. That is, unless the atmosphere at home becomes more nourishing, less combative and more supportive. And that is done by:

_...ending all love busters/extinguishers, and THEN supplying emotional needs/love kindlers..._

Over time, whether she is in the house or not, she will see 'home' become more desirable. She may even come to want to learn more about the foundation of marriage (commitment).

But that takes YOU working on YOU and stopping all this 'working on her'!


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## F-102

She will only see reality when it comes and bites her in the a**. Show her that you can get along fine and be a wonderful father and man WITHOUT her. Except for the kids, BE SELFISH! She may see that returning to the M is the better deal after all. Remember, she wanted so badly to cut loose with you being totally compliant and making it as easy as possible for her, but you made it very hard, which she did not plan on, and now she has to really come up with some desperate and half-a**ed strategies to get you to cave, but so far, you stood strong, and her facade is crumbling.


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## disbelief

Just left IC, I think we r all on same page. He says my w and I need to learn to communicate that's how the MC STARTED. Before A knowledge. He said avoid all R conversations even the ones she starts, those are the only ones we have had lately. This house she wants has to close by mid feb. 
I want to disclose thise confrontation to her sister because my W doesn't know if she told her. However me talking with her sis is a huge love buster.

Gotta drive home for. B day cake ......youngests......thanks all

I .........I WILL SURVIVE! !!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> I want to disclose thise confrontation to her sister because my W doesn't know if she told her. However me talking with her sis is a huge love buster.


Ok, two questions:

1) By 'disclosing' this to her sister, are you referring to step 3 of our seven steps? If so, this should have been done before any exposure. At this point it is merely more exposure - a step DOWN the ladder from where you should be. The only reason for exposure is to stop the affair if it continues after steps 2 & 3. 

2) How in the WORLD is talking to her sister a Love Buster? There is only one possibility for that: you are having some sort of inappropriate relationship with her sister. Other than that, it is not a Love Buster. Do not confuse actions which elicit negative emotional responses in your spouse with Love Busters or Love Extinguishers. 

Love, by definition, is doing what is best for another person. Sometimes what is best is not the most pleasant thing. That other person may well get all kinds of upset: for example, suppose that you want to help someone break their addiction to a harmful substance. It is not a 'love buster' to refuse to give them more of the substance, is it? even if they grow angry at you. 

A love buster is an action that does NOT have your spouse's best interest in mind. Usually, they are things you do at your spouse's expense to benefit your own personal agenda. 

Your IC is quite correct: the communication between you two is...problematic. Let's face it - it sucks rocks. You are engaged in a battle of wills, each trying to manipulate the other into granting whatever is desired, neither of you seem particularly as interested in the marriage as a partnership as you are in punishing and controlling one another. Both of you are afraid the other person will get the 'upper hand.' Until that paradigm is gone, your communication will be a detriment rather than an aid.


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## 8yearscheating

Ok I agree Tanelorn Pete = they are dancing. I just think pushing her out will not necessarily accomplish shocking her to reality. There has been too little time from the real discovery in her mind which just happened. She is so deep in shock and mourning she will take the easy way which is out and then be isolated from the kids and disbelief where she will easily justify never going back.


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## Affaircare

Affaircare said:


> Did you do step one, Gather Evidence?
> ~Yes. Then you move to step two
> 
> Did you do step two, Confront her directly and ask her to stop?
> ~Yes.
> Did she stop?
> ~Hard to say. In the past confronts, no. For this most recent one, maybe. If the affair starts up again, and I suspect it will, you would go to step three.
> 
> Step three is Disclose. That's where you inform one person who is likely to have some influence in her life, such as a parent or a mentor--someone who might encourage her to do the right thing and return to the marriage.


Just a note: If you do step two and she does not contact OM again, the affair has stopped and you do not go to "End the Affair step three" because the affair is ended. You would then go to the things you can do to reconcile and rebuild your marriage. 

If the affair DOES start up again, as I suspect it might....then you would go to the "End the Affair step three" disclosure, and if that ends the affair, stop. If that does not end the affair, then you go to step four, exposure. 

Make sense? So those steps are to "End the Affair" and they aren't guaranteed, but each one builds on the previous one so they are followed in order. The further along the steps you get, the lower the chance of recovering your marriage--not that it's impossible! Just less likely. 

Soooo....if the affair is ended, to being rebuilding your marriage you work on yourself and you begin with some of the Quizzes. I personally recommend starting with the Myers-Briggs personality test. Once you find out your personality type and your wife's personality type, go to The Personality Portraits and read about your type and her type.


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## disbelief

Quick answer for now ok it seems to have stopped again. Lovebuster I misunderstood she gets very angry about me talking to her sis about our R
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> Ok I agree Tanelorn Pete = they are dancing. I just think pushing her out will not necessarily accomplish shocking her to reality. There has been too little time from the real discovery in her mind which just happened. She is so deep in shock and mourning she will take the easy way which is out and then be isolated from the kids and disbelief where she will easily justify never going back.


She's been playing the 'I'm leaving' card for a long time now - one foot out the door, saying "I'll do it!, I'll do it! No, seriously, I will...I'm going, see me leaving???" The reason, as far as I can tell is that this elicits certain responses in Disbelief which then can be used to justify her reasons for hating the marriage. 

I do not believe in, nor would I endorse 'shocking' her into reality - that is a form of manipulation. What I am talking about is _ending the dance_. This particular step of the dance involves her making 'empty' threats.

It involves Disbelief having no boundary - or else one that is easily trampled (I suspect because the payoff for having his boundary trampled is that he gets to growl and snarl back at her.) The problem here is communication: virtually the only communication they have is bickering, arguing, threatening, manipulating and hurting. 

Unless it ends, they will _never_ have a healthy marriage. 

_So I advocate calling her bluff._ She may well leave. But the idea that if he just 'keeps' her somehow in the house (more manipulation?) will somehow convince her that things go better at home is a pipe dream. Had Disbelief been working a great Plan A all along, this might well be the case - but then, she'd be less vocal about leaving, as well.

She probably will leave anyway. The issue is that she is calling the shots, to the extend that Disbelief is enabling an affair in order to keep a status quo that is quite unhealthy. Now having her 'call the shots' is not necessarily a bad thing, if a Plan A is in the works - and as long as there are clearly defined boundaries over which neither may step. But maintaining this dance and hoping she will somehow recover from her 'shock' and 'mourning' and choose the marriage is pretty much naïvité - unless drastic changes happen at home! 

It is one thing to end the affair - but that is no guarantee of a return to the marriage! If the atmosphere at home is toxic, all this means is that _another_ (or the same) affair will very soon occur which is better planned, and better disguised - right up until exit. 

I am curious about one statement: 8years, you wrote "...There has been too little time from the real discovery in her mind which just happened..." - but she's known about the affair all along! This is nothing new to her! Not only that, but she has been aware of problems at home - most likely long before Disbelief knew of them (hence her desire to leave...) What is this 'discovery' of which you speak?


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> She's been playing the 'I'm leaving' card for a long time now - one foot out the door, saying "I'll do it!, I'll do it! No, seriously, I will...I'm going, see me leaving???" The reason, as far as I can tell is that this elicits certain responses in Disbelief which then can be used to justify her reasons for hating the marriage.


She does have a definite plan to leave. She has been working extra and putting money aside not taking away from the household. She has a house she has had inspected she is working on a loan and appraisal. She is obviously unhappy tonight. I have seen the paperwork we have discussed it. I have not been served but I have been to the courthouse and she did file I saw the paper and docket number. My IC is recommending seperation with a plan in place for 6-12 months. Still no sign of OM contact only 6 days since confronting.
As far as my responses to her wanting to leave I have been very plan A with the exception of working up to confronting. I was being nice trying to address her complaint but she was still in contact. 
I think I am still up for more plan A. Gotta go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> I have been very plan A


Well, you know best! Hope it all works out for you.


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> Well, you know best! Hope it all works out for you.


That's not what I meant I just wasn't sure if I ever put those facts out there. And at least I think I was plan Aing it all my words and questions here do not reflect my exact actions at home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

She has know but I don't believe he has ever made it clear how much he knows. That just happened wiht the confrontation. I agree about setting boundaries and requiring her to make the decision based on those boundaries. and everything you said Pete. Just keep the decision to leave hers so she accountable. It will create an additoinal strain in that disbelief will be totally disconnected. Rash decisions at this stage could lead reactive and more rash decisions like her out playing the field with no responsibility or guilt of having to face disbelief again. It may help, it may hurt. I agree completely he is harassing and not backing off and that will do harm and nothing good will come of it if he can't back off completely and quit pushing to fix it now. From that side, it would be better if she left. Maybe then disbelief will have the space to work on himself if he TRULY wants to save his marriage. We are on the same page.


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## disbelief

I know my stubbornness shines through here. Maybe its because i am a hands on fix it guy and not a theoetical guy anyway. I post so freely to accept the criticism. And If i was not doing so she probably would have been gone by halloween. This is the third time they said NC. OM seems serious this time having confessed to his sick Mom and all. But time will tell. Correct me if there is a better way rt now. But I was going to treat her as a friend and a guest, for example:If i am getting breakfast I offer it. However i do not intend to go out of my way at this point. I can ponder our last three discussions which were really her talking/complaining and fix what I can. Some things are complaints that I had changed back before or during the summer but she is not seeing it that way. 
I only defend a point when she is very very far off base. 
She said something this afternoon and it was hurtful. I let her know, I was not mean but i said to her that that statement actually hurts more than the whole A thing and it truly felt that way.

Unless anyone strongly recommends otherwise I was going to avoid all R talks, she has initiated the last few, per order of my IC, he even simply said if asked why to say it was his order. i am not sure if this makes sense but he said he feels it is allowing her to blow off steam and creating a cycle. 

When she says she needs to leave I tell her. So go. 
I think i upset the MC because when I say "I forced talking about" I mean I wanted to briefly discuss that the possibility of recovery does exist wether or not my W was interested at this moment. The MC shut me down and went right back to seperation and when are you moving out to W. So I brought it up again because last I checked it was couples counseling not just for my W.

Believe it or not i have stopped doing some of the things she complained about, caught my self and thought wow this is hard. 

So ther may be hope for me anyway, My M..........I don't know.

She just told me she has to go sign papers tomorrow for the house she is trying to buy. She looks beyond sad.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> This is the third time they said NC. OM seems serious this time having confessed to his sick Mom and all. But time will tell. Correct me if there is a betterway rt now.


Um...How about DEMANDING no contact whatsoever for LIFE?


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> She just told me she has to go sign papers tomorrow for the house she is trying to buy. She looks beyond sad.


 GREAT. LET her.


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## F-102

Yes, she sees that she may have to go thru with this after all, and it did NOT turn out the way she wanted it.


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## disbelief

I'm all for the nc for life, she told me about the papers and I said ok. Maybe reality is setting in time I suppose will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Disbelief, I understand you are venting here and hope your actual actions are not as aggressive as you venting. At this point, you wife is of the beleif she is unworthy of you though she would say that. She is also very guilt ridden and using the problems in your marriage as excuses why she had the A becuase theya re only justification she has to relieve her guilt. Put the lovebusters questionaire in form of her and the emotional needs questionaireand ask her to fill them in private. Just like her talk, they will be filled with a lot old issues and some that should have let go of a long time ago. Again, these are jsutifications to her for her behaviour in the affair and like Pete said there will only be a small ortion that will really be relevant. Active listen anyway and try to especially as many as you can very strongly so she can shee you are trying hard to make changes to help her feel there is a chance things can be better. Most importantly, BACK OFF COMPLETELY discussing anything to do with moving out the affair or reconciling. If she brings it up, listen only and paraphrase or repeat back what says. DO NOT comment in any way even if her comments are very hurtful. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN. SHe doesn't want fixed, she doesn't suggestions to move forward. This is real hard to do. WHat is does is force her to hear own words. Since your wife is more fanancially independant than mine is, it will not be difficult for her unless the terms of moving are very specific. Yours is the marriage home and as such, she is responsible for 50% of all of the expenses and mortgage associated with it. She is also reponsible for 50% of all the kids expenses which includes sitters so you can have time alone to think. It is too easy to bury yourself in daya to day chores and the kids and not give yourself time to think or to work on slef improvement - which by the way is important whether you stay married or not. If you don't stay married, you need those same self improvements to prevent the same thing from happening in another relationship. What she did was all her fault and decision. Unfortunately, your behaviour helped fertilize the ground.

You said "Some things are complaints that I had changed back before or during the summer but she is not seeing it that way. " If she not seeing that way, she doesn't think it was resolved. Some may be fog or justification. But try to show you have changed on those points as well.

My point on the moving out was it must be wholly her decision. Saying just go is giving her permission. If that nots what you want, just state - I don't agree, but I cannot stop you. If she does, separate bank accoutns and have her sign something before she goes lsiting the expenses, motgage, etc and tell her you will expect a check every month to cover them. While this may not make financially impossible for her as did my wife, it will eliminate most of the play money and is very justified - it would be the same if you divorced. She will assuredly complain that why should she pay if she is not living there? The answer is, it the marital home that was part of that commitment. It will be where the children are and remains a part of that commitment - it can't be walked away from. Even after a divorce it will be the same.

SO - don't enable. Make moving out like it was final. LISTEN ONLY, don't comment or try to discuss and fix. WORK ON YOURSELF even if you think you have already resolved the issue she raises. Get sitters and take the time for yourself to work on yourself.

I'm going to drop off this site for while. It is casuing me too many triggers reminding me of own WS's affair. I'm am trying very hard to put it behind me and need to distance myslef from others problems to avoid all of the memories. I'll check in once in while.


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## disbelief

Thanks 8 I understand the need to back away I really am heeding everyones advice I was just naive to think they had stopped contact last time. There are more signs of it being more final this time. She has even stopped carrying her droid every second of the day. I keep rereading plan a b and the 7 steps and alot more stuff. 
I think she has a bit of divorce bustings walk away wife in her as well. 
Thanks everyone because even if it comes off like I am not paying attention to advice given I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Ok I just have to throw this up for a change in behavior. A week since confronting no evidence of contact. The W is doing things she hasn't done in months. She actually cooked super did dishes and m washed more than her clothes and actually folded some. She actually timidly asked for my help with some things also. Little things. Now I expect nothing right now but I was very surprised at these actions. 
She did goto sign her paper I think for mortgage application. She surprisingly asked if I was going to be home. Now her body language in front of me is head down nearly no eye contact. And speaking very timidly. What's the deal. Is this part of the fog/withdrawal too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

It could be because the stress is over, you're both on the same page about her leaving, so she can be calmer and more herself.

Or, it could be reality hitting her, and she's trying to remember what it was like when she liked being with you.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> It could be because the stress is over, you're both on the same page about her leaving, so she can be calmer and more herself.
> 
> Or, it could be reality hitting her, and she's trying to remember what it was like when she liked being with you.


I suppose it's all speculation at this point. I still expect nothing right now. I think OM really shut her down after last week.He confessed to his mom and all She still signed a mortgage application today. I am just being nice. That is plan A right? She has spent more time at home this week than in months.
Is complimenting when appropriate Plan A or is that too much. 
Thanks to all again.


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## blownaway

I don't think I've weighed in here, but I've read the posts and followed. I feel so bad because it seems like you are so tortured by this every minute of every day. I don't know much, but it seems as though all this Plan A stuff is just back firing in your face. It happened to me too so I get it. Your inclination is to just be as nice as possible, try to do things that will remind her that it's you, the one she's supposed to love. But it just doesn't seem to be working and the longer it goes on, the more hurt you are. Why not try a 180/Plan B? It's the only thing you haven't tried at this point. If it doesn't work to bring her around to her senses, then at least you've done the work to detach yourself from her and start, slowly but surely, your own healing process. I don't know - that's just my two cents. I hate the pain that I see in your posts and wish I had a magic wand to make it all just go away.


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## disbelief

blownaway said:


> I don't think I've weighed in here, but I've read the posts and followed. I feel so bad because it seems like you are so tortured by this every minute of every day. I don't know much, but it seems as though all this Plan A stuff is just back firing in your face. It happened to me too so I get it. Your inclination is to just be as nice as possible, try to do things that will remind her that it's you, the one she's supposed to love. But it just doesn't seem to be working and the longer it goes on, the more hurt you are. Why not try a 180/Plan B? It's the only thing you haven't tried at this point. If it doesn't work to bring her around to her senses, then at least you've done the work to detach yourself from her and start, slowly but surely, your own healing process. I don't know - that's just my two cents. I hate the pain that I see in your posts and wish I had a magic wand to make it all just go away.


Thank you for chiming in early on I truly was tortured every minute, now i have gotten the proper counciling here and locally and taken thr right steps to control my emotions. Maybe a Plan B 180 would work. i will reread Plan B. Only 7 days from confronting I figured as recommended by many others to stick with plan A a while longer. I still have it in me I am sure that no matter what she is moving out. I will continue to take advice here.


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## blownaway

That's good. Do some reading up on it. Be prepared that when she does move out, you will go through a major withdrawal. Your body will even have a physical reaction to the change. All of this drama has fed your adrenaline for so long. When she goes, there will be a sense of relief, but also a bit of panic. That is normal and just something that you have to live through. The Plan B, for me, was not so much to get H to try to come out of the fog or see things more clearly. It is a way to just detach myself emotionally. The pain is just too intense and I had to do something to try to make some of it go away. good luck!


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## disbelief

I am actually ok when shes not here but we all know she is coming back. When she is home I have to use restraint since there is no affection. My fear I s for the kids now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Is this a sign of the beginning of a breakthrough? W says while already teary will you just take this as moody..... but there r some days I wake up and feel life is not worth living. Very concerning and will keep tabs on it. Surprisingly she actually allowed me to hold her and comfort her. First in a while. She repeatedly said she is not deserving of anything. She works the next 12 Hrs. That is the most she has expressed about what she is feeling. Breakthrough may be the wrong word.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

She's going through withdrawal from the A addiction. Its almost like a grieving process. Be there for her, be strong for yourself and the family.

The emotional roller coaster is still rolling. 

Keep to Plan A of Carrot and Stick. 

Good luck


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## Eli-Zor

It is going to take time, lots of time and patience. Carry on with Plan A and look after yourself and your children. Stay on track.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Will do Power and Eli, 8 more days and she has to refile. I was told it was calendar days not business. I have yet to be served. Time and patience huh!?


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## Eli-Zor

If you get served you counter file for adultery.

Have you signed the house over to you, and let her off her part of the mortgage payment?

Be warned the moment she buys another house this will be a major obstacle to recover the marriage. You should not enable her by giving her the financial breadth to move out.


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## disbelief

I plan to counter file if it comes to that. Financially she has the ability to work and earn as much as she needs to if she is that determined????????? I am plan a I remind her I disagree ..........in the end if she really wants it she will do it I am signing nothing to help her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Ok like I have said I appreciate everyones advice here so maybe I am doing it wrong but I will post what's going on. I worked this weekend so W home with kids. She reengaged the house doing things she used to do. Kids room. The cleanup a mom does better than dad. A new scented thing from the candle place put out. She is still head down will not look me in the eye. Several long hugs tonight. Conversation about days events no R talk no arguing. I have straight out asked her if she wants me to leave her alone she doesn't answer. 5 days ago that answer would have been yes. Any ladies out there have an opinion especially former WW. This is one strange trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What does she do with the rest of her time? Are we convinced she is no longer cheating? She has NO contact of any sort with any man? My DD20's good friend got pregnant, got married, cheated on her husband with her old boyfriend, stopped that (with help from my DD20), reconciled, got a job, and is now in a full-blown EA with a guy from her work! All in a year's time! She never intended, she just has weak moral compass. She admits as much.

Just saying...be VERY careful of what she is doing, 24/7, before you decide what you are dealing with.


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## 8yearscheating

Couldn't resist check up on your progress. Go back and read my three threads - she is exactly at the point just before my wife decided to reconcile. I think your moving in the right direction. Stay the course and DON'T ask ANY questions. Just let her talk.


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## disbelief

She has been spending more and more time at home. Her only time away has been for work. I remain on guard. It has not been long enough nor has she recommitted. She will not look me in the eyes. She stopped carrying her cell phone constantly also. Babysteps? Time will tell. 
Still planning for the worst and hoping for the best although it will come with its challenges.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

The long hugs are a plus. Baby steps are correct I think. Be strong - keep on Plan A - Make the home as attractive as you can. Pay close attention to your moods as well as hers. 

She's going to be grieving for awhile yet and coming to grips to the damage she has done to all involved including herself. This is traumatic to all involved. 

How is she with the kids? Are they happy with her?

I wish you both well and you're right - time will tell


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## F-102

Perhaps the A is, indeed, over.


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## disbelief

Thanks all. I happened on a A recovery site. And one of the reccomedations was just closeness sitting holding hugging. The chemisty site recommend by affaircare. Was good too. Maybe some of this change is due to the fact that in order for her to proceed with the mortgage she needs a seperation agreement. D papers filed expire this weekend. I plan to check that on the 18Th Appreciate the support everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Morning all, so say it turns out the A is done and my W decides and asks to stay in this house since she has been doing everything to leave. What is an effective way to say yes but with the conditions. Of transparency and MB principles without shutting her back down? 
I am planning in my head here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Agreement that any contact with OM or other person to whom she is having ANY feelings for will result in her coming to you immediately and not responding to them. The key to moving forward is complete transparency in those situations. You can then slowly move towards passwords and user names for all accounts like phone and any credit cards email etc. Eventually she should close any separate credit cards and get rid of any other phones she got. Take it REAL slow. Listen only don't comment. Tell her constantly that you love her and TOGETHER you can work through this and have a stronger relationship. Also tell her it has woken you up to her needs and you will work hard to make the changes necessary to make it work if she will just come to you first to discuss those problems instead of going to someone else. You want to be very gentle when discussing the A and be sure to thank her for her honesty. Only let her bring up the A for now. DO NOT attack or abuse her or she will pull away. One oh sh*t kills a bunch of good efforts on your part
Congrats. You are truly moving in the right direction and should have a renewed sense of hope. Stay the course and be sure to engage brain before opening mouth!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

Ah - so the 'house deal' fell through. Darn.

What 8years advocates above is transparent honesty. And for the life of me, I cannot see why you would be concerned about "...Of transparency and MB principles without shutting her back down? ..." If she is not being transparent, she is already shut down! She has closed (_shut?_) any true knowledge of her actions, etc., keeping them away from you.

Keep this in mind, too: trying to 'find a way' to make sure she stays all friendly with you (is that what you mean by 'shutting down?') at the expense of honesty, etc., is actually a means of control. Passive, yes, but still manipulative. If you ever wish to have a healthy marriage, that passive manipulation needs to be _gone_ completely. (So does any other form of manipulation.)

My advice: Give her the choice of the three conditions listed here, or else she finds someone else to live with. Her actions have not been in any way directed at reconciliation - and yet she is married. It isn't a question of hoping that she will one day reconsider - as long as you giver he 'outs,' 'excuses' and 'reasons' for avoiding work on the marriage, you make it evident to her that the marriage is not as important to you as you want her to assume. She will take advantage of this until something else that grabs her interest comes along.


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> Ah - so the 'house deal' fell through. Darn.
> 
> What 8years advocates above is transparent honesty. And for the life of me, I cannot see why you would be concerned about "...Of transparency and MB principles without shutting her back down? ..." If she is not being transparent, she is already shut down! She has closed (_shut?_) any true knowledge of her actions, etc., keeping them away from you.


I don't acyually know if the house deal fell through all signs point to she either stopped it or it did I have not questioned it yet. I am at the moment only asking the open ended do need to talk type question. Trying to stick to my IC's order of no R or financial talk until I see him again which is on the 19th.
Right now she says she wants to talk to noone. A week ago she would not entertain the idea of transparency. She is shut down right now i would agree with that. What I meant was if she finally opens up and says I do want to fix this, I can be blunt, i am trying to form in my mind a good answer that says ok I am happy this is going to take work. This is what i will need transparency etc ( it has been discussed). 



Tanelornpete said:


> Keep this in mind, too: trying to 'find a way' to make sure she stays all friendly with you (is that what you mean by 'shutting down?') at the expense of honesty, etc., is actually a means of control. Passive, yes, but still manipulative. If you ever wish to have a healthy marriage, that passive manipulation needs to be _gone_ completely. (So does any other form of manipulation.).


So I never wanted to control her I am preplanning in my head a better way to answer. So I don't come off controlling and I don't come off as a doormat. 



Tanelornpete said:


> My advice: Give her the choice of the three conditions listed here, or else she finds someone else to live with. Her actions have not been in any way directed at reconciliation - and yet she is married. It isn't a question of hoping that she will one day reconsider - as long as you giver he 'outs,' 'excuses' and 'reasons' for avoiding work on the marriage, you make it evident to her that the marriage is not as important to you as you want her to assume. She will take advantage of this until something else that grabs her interest comes along.


I agree she has not expressed any desire to reconcile as of yet. Her actions since Friday have been the most change I have seen in all of this. I discovered that in order for her to get the loan she needs a finalized seperation agreement not just processed D papers so I am wondering if that was the reality that hit her and caused her behavioral swing. I am noticing very little things it will take alot for her to actually tell me without me asking if she has changed her mind about leaving. D papers expire Saturday thats 30 days I am going to check on the 18th. I will not stay in limbo forever. I hope that clarified my before coffee  statement above. Thanks


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## Tanelornpete

> What I meant was if she finally opens up and says I do want to fix this, I can be blunt, i am trying to form in my mind a good answer that says ok I am happy this is going to take work.


Disbelief - if she DOES open up and say "I do want to fix this" then she will already be at a place where she will be willing to do what it takes.

But that is not where she is, _and that is what is necessary for your marriage_. Her housing deal is gone. She is being nice to you in order that she have a free place to live, while she takes further steps to leave. 

_Otherwise she would be willing to do what it takes to reconcile._

There is no reason for you to question or wonder if she has changed her mind about leaving. She will ask to reconcile if the has changed her mind. It is that simple. Your marriage will fail and die without reconciliation, and all you are doing is giving her time to aim her shots at you better. Maybe you can paint a target on your chest! 

It is very simple: reconcile or leave. Make that clear, and stick to it. If she is waiting to leave, all this means is that she leaves earlier. She's going anyway! On the other hand, if she is not sure - _help her decide_. Either way, you will come out as strong and the defender of the family. You don't have to be rude, or demanding, or any other of a multitude of negative actions. You can speak the truth in love. Just make sure you speak the truth!


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## disbelief

Tanelornpete said:


> Disbelief - if she DOES open up and say "I do want to fix this" then she will already be at a place where she will be willing to do what it takes.


I hope she gets to that point. She is certainly in emotional turmoil. She got up to get ready for work and cried for most of the hour. She accepted and moved towards several hugs i would say she is miserable. Not to be cruel but is this how one begins to pay for their mistakes.



Tanelornpete said:


> But that is not where she is, _and that is what is necessary for your marriage_. Her housing deal is gone. She is being nice to you in order that she have a free place to live, while she takes further steps to leave.


In her case the home is not free she is still paying her share of bills and it has not been an issue. 





Tanelornpete said:


> There is no reason for you to question or wonder if she has changed her mind about leaving. She will ask to reconcile if the has changed her mind. It is that simple. Your marriage will fail and die without reconciliation, and all you are doing is giving her time to aim her shots at you better. Maybe you can paint a target on your chest!


LOL on the target maybe I will order one of those shirts. The rest of your points understood.




Tanelornpete said:


> It is very simple: reconcile or leave. Make that clear, and stick to it. If she is waiting to leave, all this means is that she leaves earlier. She's going anyway! On the other hand, if she is not sure - _help her decide_. Either way, you will come out as strong and the defender of the family. You don't have to be rude, or demanding, or any other of a multitude of negative actions. You can speak the truth in love. Just make sure you speak the truth!


The truth in love .......my first thought to that is I think I am doing so through plan A as she "crumbles" I am there to pick her up. I am remaining posotive in my attitude. I have learned much in the past few months. I am not causing conflict and avoiding the negative things at this point. The one " mistake " I made was she made a comment about leaving and I responded with well Is that what you want? She got very defensive. A week ago it would have been: you know that is what I am trying to do. 

Knowing her ways of being bottled up unless she completly cracks I think it will take weeks for her to say it on her own. I believe it will reach the point that I will have to ask. That is also provided we remain on this course and she remains NC. 

Thanks Again


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## Tanelornpete

Couple of quick points:



> ...i would say she is miserable. Not to be cruel but is this how one begins to pay for their mistakes...


It _can _be how one 'begins' to 'pay' for their 'mistakes' (is an affair a 'mistake'?) but there is no need to even approach that. The issue is that no one can 'pay' for pain they cause others - the only payment that can be made is to return funds stolen, etc. All the rest (the idea of penance, etc) is irrelevant: in what way would her being hurt make you feel better? 

This is an area where the Carrot (of the Carrot & Stick) is most necessary: she does need a shoulder on which to cry, and in fact, if you are the one to whom she turns in this instance, you are building some major points for yourself in her 'love bank.'

However, if she is not willing to commit to the marriage, then the 'Stick' part of the Carrot & Stick comes into play: it is NOT OK to lead your husband on in the hopes that you might (one day, weeks from now, maybe, depending on the phase of the moon, and my emotional state, and provided I don't find another way to get back with my 'lover') decide to start work on the marriage. As if it were the last step in a series of possible choices. A marriage must be #1 human relationship priority to be healthy - putting it behind other personal relationships means that those relationships become the focus. The Stick: if you wish to play house here, we do it as a married couple, not roommates. Choose the marriage, or choose somewhere else. Or, stated as a boundary: I will not live with a person who calls herself my wife but refuses to be married. If you want to be with me, you'll respect my boundary...


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## disbelief

No her being hurt does not make me feel better. 
As far as the rest I may find out more soon. The W just called from work saying she was going to email OM and OMW because she was tired of all this and tell them .....she had to go and she would call to talk to me later ..........She never ever calls from the overnight to talk. I am ......perplexed ......


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## disbelief

Ok so W called. Being a third shifter she has script help to sleep. We have had full conversations she doesn't remember. She called to tell me OM emailed her reason doesn't matter right (it was a reason that had already been addressed through me and my sis so he had no reason to contact). She has a droid and work has always called her cell if there is a shift change, so it's in the bedroom, she didn't shut off all the email alerts.
She says she responded to him, she doesn't remember responding which is believable, she wouldn't tell me what she said she had to get back to work. She is crying at work she said she just called to tell me it happened. And she doesn't want to talk to anyone anymore. My guess would be it was a mean exchange. When she was getting ready for work she said she was tired of people being mean. 

Excluding the fact that he made contact. On her part to call me, when I had no clue about this and fess up, that's a step in the right direction isn't it? She was hesitant to tell me who emailed but she did, whole conversation 4 minutes, she gave up the who real quick. 

So if the W and I talk tomorrow and she is serious about NC. then new email address. Ask her work to change her work email. and new cell phone number as well as NC letter. 

I feel it is good she told me it happened, 2 weeks ago it would have been a secret. So I didn't get mad I complimented the honesty.

OM is suppossedly being 100% honest with OMW she told him anymore contact it was bye. Hmmm.

I think I should take care of my own house first.


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## Powerbane

Babysteps...

She might be turning the corner. 

It is good news that she called you immediately. It means she is trusting you again and you're the better option than the OM and the affair. Good job on complimenting the honesty too! 

Keep on the good Plan A.

Is there any way to get her a break for a couple of days and just the 2 of you go away without the kids?


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## Eli-Zor

Stay on course the OM is a blame shifter, he is a drama queen, makes out he is innocent threatens all sort of extreme action and then plays a game with your wife and his. I assume his wife knows he made contact.

If you approach this correctly and your wife understands he is playing a little game with her she should understand that a firm NC letter will protect her, if he chooses to ignore it you can start building a case of harassment against him. Key is for her to write the NC it is a psychological barrier for her to pass and accept the affair is over and it is time to focus on the marriage. 

Stay on course and keep to Plan A consistency is your strength and she will notice. No love busters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I will keep on my plan A. If she seriously. Wants tgo be left alond then I figured she would agree to changing her cell number and email address. Eliminate the opption for contact and do the nc letter. Let's hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Perhaps OM wants W to throw him out, so that your W will come running to him to provide comfort- "He needs me!"


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## Powerbane

Have you gotten in the OM face yet and told him explicitly to stay the He77 away?

I'm sure your Sis will not be happy NC was broken either :-(


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## disbelief

I have simply avoided OM. The whole reverse psychology thing would play in the more these two are told not to the more they try to. My W very tired now. But she ended up emailing OM and OMW after OMW texting my W. I do not know the content. The past 6 days went well now this. My W just even said she almost called and backed out of the house. At least i know the real status there without asking. 
She is not ready for changing numbers etc. She wants it to be her decisiion. As soon as I make it a choice she acts like a teenager when you tell them they can't goto a party. She even reminded me she has that charecter flaw of tell her she can't do it and she will try harder to do it. That's how she survived alot of things.
So ultimately I leave the choice hers. She says she understands the why of NC. She just is obviously not ready especially when I made it a choice. She did not scream out we are done this time.

OMW is mad but I believe she thinks my w initiated contact. I am going to try to get my W to print emails from the actual account it should be there. At least then she can defend herself.
She is in the I am nothing phase. I am worthless the kids would be better without me.
So no matter how hard it is I keep bringing up the posotives. I think he has played her since the beggining. I was thinking the other night and realized the time frame the EA began was when OM/my best frienf (HA what a liar) were discussing our marital problems. How much you wanna bet he played those cards. i want to mention that to her.
She is opening up to me a little more at a time.
I don't know. This sucks. He doesn't deserve her. She is so much better than all this. This reminds me of a dark cloud hovering.
Sorry a little venting here.


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## Eli-Zor

When you do have conversations make the sentence short statements not dialogues . It keeps messages short and she can absorb them more readily, examples are "the OM is playing you" , "he is manipulating your trust for his own selfish needs" , "he is blaming you", "no matter what I love you for who you are", "I may not need you in my life, I want you in my life", "we will overcome this together" etc...these are short to the point and cannot be misunderstood .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

So she broke the NC, AGAIN. Wonderful.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> So she broke the NC, AGAIN. Wonderful.


Actually he did. The first email came from him. I fully believe her that she does not remember the email conversation her sleep med does that. Ambien does much more. It's interesting she threw it out this morning. 

Being Patient Being tested. Baby step= not yelling she is leaving this time. Not telling me to stop talking about fixing it, actually talking about the A and issues.


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## Tanelornpete

> She is in the I am nothing phase. I am worthless the kids would be better without me.
> 
> So no matter how hard it is I keep bringing up the posotives.


Disbelief, this is part of that game (dance) of which I keep speaking. She says "...O, I am SO terrible...I am SO worthless..." and you respond "No you aren't..." (positives)

Do a danged 180. Don't even respond when she says such a thing - she is _expecting_ some sort of response! My guess is that she will escalate her complaints about herself in an attempt to get you to respond. 

If it gets too bad, start pointing out that she should seek professional help for this. But don't play the game! It's a habit between you two...


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## disbelief

Ahh yes I see you changed my perspective. I wasn't seeing it that way. She plans to cancel her IC appointment. I am not burnt out on this yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Yes, but did she open that e-mail? And she's still reminding you of that "flaw"? Sounds like she still has a "free ticket" that she's going to whip out.


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## disbelief

Maybe that's what she is trying I don't know. As far as opening the email maybe she would not have if she hadn't taken the med. What people have done on ambien is scary. Not being a pushover but the fact she told me and continued to discuss it I See as a step in the right direction. If contact becomes regular and she withdraws again ............I will reevaluate! Keep me on my toes though, keep me thinking. Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

I agree with the comments on Ambien - I've seen what it can do. That is a dangerous drug.


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## michzz

Tanelornpete said:


> I agree with the comments on Ambien - I've seen what it can do. That is a dangerous drug.


Like any drug the usage and dosage have to be carefully monitored. It's only useful if used correctly.


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## Tanelornpete

Still dangerous. There is no way to predict behavior on that particular drug. It cannot be monitored at all times - except in laboratory conditions, and I doubt there are many people who are willing to sleep nights in the lab. 

My ex-wife was using the drug (correctly) - one night I awoke to find her talking to the Founding Fathers in our closet. She insisted that they were there, expounding history to her. Humorous example, but the lack of control is the issue, not the particular behavior.


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## turnera

I'd for SURE be telling Sis that he contacted your wife, not the other way around. Come on. It's your sister. Can you not even have that one little one-minute conversation?


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Ahh yes I see you changed my perspective. I wasn't seeing it that way. *She plans to cancel her IC appointment*. I am not burnt out on this yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why on EARTH would she do THAT? Especially now? 

You need to be firmer in this. The 'she will just stamp her foot' excuse...is JUST an excuse so you don't have to 'be mean' to her. How can she respect you if you don't respect yourself? If she won't change the numbers, etc. _*she moves out*_.

I get that you want to be the rescuer but seriously, HOW can she learn and grow if you keep helping her avoid her own pitfalls?


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## disbelief

She was going to cancel her ic appoint because she is mad doesnt want to talk with anyone.

The conversation about changing phone number and email will take place again. 
I have been clear that our M cannot survive if they are in contact. I said it again this AM if behavior is a sign her response: she was still upset doesn't want to be told what she can and can't do but then went onto express how she understands why. And she was not as defensive as the last time it was discussed.

Her responses to everything are changing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Tanelornepete, I did that 180. So is the fact that she is opening up more a good sign? 

And this came from her also I commented on the many ways we could go about fixing this and she agreed with the BUT: " Then I would have to let go" referring to everything that happenned between her and OM. She stated she was not ready to let go.


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## Tanelornpete

> Tanelornepete, I did that 180. So is the fact that she is opening up more a good sign?


Yeah - that's a good sign. Don't let up - it's not a 1 time thing - it should be pretty much any time it happens. Over time the habit will break and you both will find new ways to communicate.



> And this came from her also I commented on the many ways we could go about fixing this and she agreed with the BUT: " Then I would have to let go" referring to everything that happenned between her and OM. She stated she was not ready to let go.


That's OK. The process of losing a relationship (especially one that was largely fantasy) is difficult. Stay the course.


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## disbelief

Well she went to her IC today. I was home when she got home she just wants to be left alone. Alot of crying on her part. This is completly opposite of the last suppossed no contact when she remained angry and defensive. 
Now there is some opening up and there is more grief behavior than secretive defensive behavior. 
She still has yet to say that she wants to fix this.


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## F-102

Don't rush her, she's gonna have to do this in baby steps-in a sense, she'll have to "trickle truth" herself, but that may be the key: she may be realizing that in lying to you and family, she was ultimately lying to herself.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Tanelornepete, I did that 180. So is the fact that she is opening up more a good sign?
> 
> And this came from her also I commented on the many ways we could go about fixing this and she agreed with the BUT: " Then I would have to let go" referring to everything that happenned between her and OM. *She stated she was not ready to let go*.


 And this is where I take a harder stance than many. 

By explicitly saying that TO YOUR FACE, she is telling you that she expects you to be ok with her splitting her affection between two men. 

The only way she will respect you and COMMIT to your marriage is if you - also, explicitly - say "No, I cannot accept that answer. I can accept you as my wife; I can't accept you as a roommate who cares about another man. If you can't or won't choose me, I don't want to be married to you. I deserve better."

Until you can say that to her, she has NO REASON to commit to your marriage; you aren't requiring it.


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## turnera

Of course, I'm not telling you to kick her out of the house tonight or anything. Just making it clear you will not be a backup plan. She needs to see you know you deserve more than that.

Note, I'm not saying be mean to her. I'm saying be logical with her.


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## disbelief

Turnera understood I like your wording. She just came out with the everyone will be better off without me, she did state how she has to deal with this she created this situation she said " it's my own fault" a whole bunch of other self loathing comments. She has mostly slept and cried since she got off shift wed morning. I have made it clear that in order for this M to work she must have no contact. I was very clear when I confronted her that she needed. To make a choice. D paper expires Saturday. I still have not been served, she running out of time on her house deal too. She need official seperation agreement in order to not need huge down payment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I think Tunera needs anger management counselling or to get over something really bitter. Give her space and time and don't push any agendas. She knows your terms, you have stated them more than once. She has to work through both her guilt AND her grieving, neither of which you can help with other than active listening and letting her know you are there when she needs you and that you wouldn't be if you felt she wasn't worth it. SHe sounds like she is turning in the right direction. Give it time and avoid at all cost ANY attacks. Keep filling your love bank. Confrontation only empties it in one stroke. If you read my latest thread, I blew it the other day by going way overboard after a trigger caused me to implode. I was wrong. Anyone who thinks punishing or controlling to extreme will work, will find themselves alone. This isnot a chess game or a strategy game. It's both of your feelings and pain. Yes she did wrong - she knows it and is probably also confused by the fact you still want her back. Engage brain before opening mouth and consider how you would feel if you were in her position - empathy.


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## disbelief

8, I hope things improve on your end we are all human after all and backslides will happen. I have seen several "baby steps this last week" 8 days ago we left MC after she yelled at me it was done and the MC said she could do nothing more for us. More than a week of no R talks her crying alot and all the posts, this is the most change I have seen. So tuneras post will be lingering in my head. I will not jump on that action. I can see that as I remain calm she opens up more. I don't have to ask I just don't walk away as fast and she ends up talking. I even caught myself engaging my brain and not saying something last night. Wow personal progress. We will all get through our situations one way or another.


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## Powerbane

:iagree: I totally agree with 8yrs!

IF she brings up that you would be better off without her - say to her that yes you are better off without the old marriage - but are looking forward to building a more loving relationship and getting to know her all over again. 

Yes - she is still coming to grips with all of this fantasy she was trying to live and fulfill. Yes - she is still grieving. 8yrs is right when he recommends gentle babysteps with her. IT's going to take some time.

Take some comfort in all that has happened positive so far:

1. She is not communicating with the OM with the exception of when he broke NC and she told you about it. 
2. She is acknowledging that she caused this mess. (BIG STEP)
3. She got rid of a drug that might or might not have contributed to the mess (Ambien). 
4. She is no longer talking about leaving. 
5. Long hugs!!! and did I say LONG HUGS????!!!!

Long way to go - we're all pulling for you both and the family. (Some of us are praying too!)

Continue with being in Plan A, build the Love Bank and make deposits where you can with her. Have you identified, at least from your perspective, her top Emotional Needs and are working on filling them?


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## F-102

I think she needs to know, most of all, that she is worthy of being forgiven.


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## michzz

turnera said:


> The only way she will respect you and COMMIT to your marriage is if you - also, explicitly - say "No, I cannot accept that answer. I can accept you as my wife; I can't accept you as a roommate who cares about another man. If you can't or won't choose me, I don't want to be married to you. I deserve better."
> 
> Until you can say that to her, she has NO REASON to commit to your marriage; you aren't requiring it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

The price to your own wellbeing is too high to allow for less than all in.


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## disbelief

She did mention the house again and another place futher away but that was after OM broke the NC and she emailed under the influence of Ambien and on that note she and i had a conversation that morning after she went to bed and she has no recollection. OMW txt mean txt according to my W I have yet to speak with OMW. I see the baby steps I see the change in her behavior. She is definitely still digesting the concept/idea of transparency, she was building herself up to be completly independent " i don't want help from anyone" now I want open book again. At least she's not yelling when she talks about it now.


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## disbelief

michzz said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> The price to your own wellbeing is too high to allow for less than all in.


:iagree::iagree:


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## disbelief

I have got to say I just had that back in High school feeling like I was being there for the girl who was dumped because she's the one i want. Seeing her in emotional pain does not make me feel better but she is certainly at this point in my perspective in more pain than I am that doesn't change anything but it is what it is. I think maybe part of why I am being so tolerant is because we were friends for so long before we were a couple. 
OMW says OM told my W he used her to get back at his W. Nice huh! This during the NC/sleep emails the other day.


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## 8yearscheating

The OM is destroying himself with your wife. Be the better man - a safe harbor without confrontation. Tunera's comment:
"By explicitly saying that TO YOUR FACE, she is telling you that she expects you to be ok with her splitting her affection between two men. 

The only way she will respect you and COMMIT to your marriage is if you - also, explicitly - say "No, I cannot accept that answer. I can accept you as my wife; I can't accept you as a roommate who cares about another man. If you can't or won't choose me, I don't want to be married to you. I deserve better."

That is confrontational. You have already stated these - perhaps in a different way - in any case you stated these points. The last two sentences are definitely in your face demands and threats. She needs safe harbor not someone shooting at her emotionally. There is plenty of time to sort out the details and there can't be a timetable or script. Just goals for the future and a NEW marriage and relationship. I'm finding I will never forget and am trying hard to put the pain, flashbacks and triggers behind me. Beating her up over it is not an option. It only drives a wedge and distance between you. Time and small steps - don't try to rush it or push it or fix it. Let the changes come and move forward slowly. Things in my mind are heading your way. Be careful when she does recommit that you don't go over board promising things for the future. I was so happy and excited it was ubelievable. 

You are not being harsh or wrong headed to be happy about the fact she is greiving and showing guilt. The greiving and the OM's actions are pushing her toward realizing it's over. That is a very good thing. The guilt will eventually lead to remorse or a an understanding of what damage she has really caused with you and a need to try again because you deserve it and want it. She will also be bale to see in the stark light of day what this would mean to her kids as opposed to justifying leaving because "they would be better off without me". No mother realistically thinks she can be away from her kids. That is one point I hope you made to her in a factual non-if you don't do this the kids will stay here way. Make sure she knows that if she moves out - the kids will stay home - not split custody. She can come over any time. Don't raise it now unless she starts pushing moving out again if you haven't already made this clear.
Show her you are trying to change the issues she raised - love bank additions, show her empathy with active listening and not confronting, asking questions or pushing a plan or way to fix it. I'd go so far as to buy her flowers at the supermarket and write her a simple my arms are open card. Schedule time together with the kids and her and stay completely off the subject. Safe comfortable time together where you can't start talking about the A and your M.
If you think you can do it, offer a dinner and movie - same conditions as above by telling her no A or M talk, just time to be together in a safe non-emotional way.

The reason I suggest this is so that you lower her level of fear of you. She is afraid she has screwed up any chance with you and there is no way you could get over it. That is reinforced by your actions with constantly talking about it and making demands or requests or placing conditions on what it is going to take. She also cannot fathom that you can get ever get over it. How could she possibly ever be worthy of your love after what she has done. By showing her you can be safe harbor and do the things I suggested without those fears - she can finally start to believe there is hope for the future. If you discuss anything on the safe date, make it praise for how great she is with the kids. How proud you are of her and her job and accomplishments. Things I'm sure you feel, but have not said to her often enough. These are recognition that she has great qualities you love and boost her self esteem. It's also another way of saying how much you love her without putting her on the spot by directly saying it which leaves a pregnant pause when she doesn't say it back. The only thing you say about the recent situation is that you will NOT punish or make life a recurring interrogation and guilt trip for her. You could never cause her more pain. Make sure your actions and words prove it.

The hugs are great start. Don't push the physical, let her control the pace entirely.

Good luck disbelief, you are doing great and I really believe she is turning back towards you.


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## disbelief

Here's a question i have the opportunity to sign the W and I up for a Marriage Enrichment Program It uses the Prep approach(Prevention and Relationship Enhancement Program) it is not therapy. 
I am trying to avoid a backslide so I am debating on presenting it to the W or not. I need to reply ASAP so any opinions???


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## Tanelornpete

Not yet - too soon.....


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## Initfortheduration

:iagree: To soon. Marriage enrichment is something that can make good/committed marriages better/stronger. But shouldn't be used to try to resurrect badly troubled marriages.


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## disbelief

Ok. Thank you that conversation stays in my head for now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Much too soon yet. If it were 2 months from now maybe. But now - no. You don't want to scare her off. She is still trying to come to grips with all of this and forgive herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Look. I get what 8yrs is saying. What you are fearing. That if you get 'too strong' she'll just run away.

So I'll ask you: Do you want a marriage where you have to step on tiptoes in fear of upsetting her again, or do you want a marriage where you BOTH have a DESIRE for each other?

Women have to respect their man. Period. The more accommodating you become, the longer you 'give' her to figure out what she wants, the more 'chances' you give her to fluctuate back and forth...the more her respect for you erodes.
'
Is she in pain? Of course. That's what cheating does. 

But you don't get a cheater back - into a HEALTHY relationship - by being nice and not rocking the boat. The cheater learns only one thing from this - I can continue to seek 'my' happiness because my husband isn't going anywhere.

Is that a marriage?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Look. I get what 8yrs is saying. What you are fearing. That if you get 'too strong' she'll just run away.


Actually at this point I do not fear for me if she leaves. I would much rather work through this and raise my children with my wife married rather than divorced. So I only fear for them right now. I am the constant in this family for them.





turnera said:


> So I'll ask you: Do you want a marriage where you have to step on tiptoes in fear of upsetting her again, or do you want a marriage where you BOTH have a DESIRE for each other?


No I do not want too Tiptoe and walk on eggshells. I want the marriage with desire by both of us. Rt now I would say that I am at the ILYBNILWY point also. Definitely alot of work to do here.




turnera said:


> Women have to respect their man. Period. The more accommodating you become, the longer you 'give' her to figure out what she wants, the more 'chances' you give her to fluctuate back and forth...the more her respect for you erodes.
> '


I have told her what I need to fix this. I have put the fate of this marriage in her hands. She dislikes it when I repeat things she always has I am forgetful she is not. I am seeing baby steps. She has been working extra anyway a bad time to start a conversation is right before or after work so plan A is in effect there. The safe harbor to vent about work if she desires. I consider all advice I get here. I see your point, In my humble opinion what she respects may be different than what another woman respects. She does not havee until the end of time to decide. She starts talking more when I ask less. 
I do understand your point.



turnera said:


> Is she in pain? Of course. That's what cheating does.
> 
> But you don't get a cheater back - into a HEALTHY relationship - by being nice and not rocking the boat. The cheater learns only one thing from this - I can continue to seek 'my' happiness because my husband isn't going anywhere.


The boat will rock just not yet,



turnera said:


> Is that a marriage?


No not right now


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## F-102

Way to soon for any enrichment seminars.


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## disbelief

So the W just went off on an all negative about the M conversation. Will skip details. According to hher the acceptance of hugs and just sitting with her ....she didn't tell me to go away because she didn't want to be mean. I said if u don't want me to sit be honest and say so I can't read your mind.
she still doesn't know where the D papers are that expire today.
she still wants to buy the house but has been ignoring the emails.
she would rather have the money to spend time with the kids.
she wants to run away and start life all over.
she doesn't think anyone should have to work at daily happiness this while talking about the M.
I told her to decide what she wants, that it is possible to work out this M. I said we could start with simple honesty and making sure we spend 5-10 min at "shift change" talking about our days.....that's when she said I am not going to schedule my life like that.
I have to pay attention to her anger it changed before when she was lying about contact with OM
Should I tell her after I find out for sur the D papers expired?
Fog or not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Fog talk... she is confused and uncertain. This is your time to continue to show strength, leadership and direction. Furthermore do not play your hand, if the divorce papers expire so be it. As for the 5-10min talk, make yourself available and talk, this is not a love buster simply you as her husband talking to her. .


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## 8yearscheating

Let it go. She's testing you. The " I am not going to schedule my life like that" is a control thing which she doesn't have much of right now. Her actions speak louder than her fantasy of running away to a new life or fearing the work it will require to mend the M. Getting a divorce, sharing custody of the kids and the rest will be a lot harder with a lot more unhappiness and she knows it. Leave it all alone and let her talk. Only suggest your waiting for her to come back.


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## disbelief

Thanks everyone, I figured for fog talk. I am remaining in control of my emotions when she decides it is time for conversation. Validating and acknowleging what she has to say. I was surprised at one point I kind of shut her down when she asked me for an example of a situation and I gave her one, it was accurate and posotive therefore not enforcing her negative rewritten memory.
She asked why i was being nice to her. She has spent most of her time off sleeping or on the couch reading. The kids decided to hang out in the room she was in so I think that was a good thing.
For myself I just watched Fireproof. 
And while my wife is terribly unhappy I had a great day with my kids sledding etc. The W's voice is losing its constant defensive tone. And if actions speak louder than words I suppose she would be out and even newer, she will actually let me sit next to her. 2 weeks ago well I guess I would not have tried. She also doesn't yell at me to get away????? 
And Technically it's Sunday the D papers should be no good now, i will have to take a ride to check on that this week.


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## turnera

Are you verifying NC?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Are you verifying NC?


As best as I can. No evidence since the sleeping email. She has been spending all her time off at home. No extra errands. OMW watches email. My W does her email from phone. I do not have spyware there or access to her phone yet. I have not had the transparency conversation again yet. Her behavior suggests NC. She stopped carrying cell phone constanly while in house. Some other subtle signs. I remain suspicious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Ok I need to ask my W tends to clean and occaisionally purge stuff. But is this a behavior that is indicative of anything else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Anyone in an affair or aftermath of an affair who cleans, purges or removes traces from the PC is up to no good. Get yourself a keylogger and verify, never reveal what you are doing this is you confirming the status of the affair and protecting the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Part of complete transparency is leaving that stuff for you to see. Your not at that point yet. It should be a condition of reconciliation.

Give it some time and keep up the active listening. Are you trying hard to get her join you when you take the kids out?


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## disbelief

She is actually just getting rid of regular stuff. And stuff that has been in her car throughout this but is not related to the A. She also finally potted some plants she bought just before or close to d day. So her behavior is changing from the way she was post d day. If I really think about it she hasn't purged anything odd. Actually the oddest thing, the thing that made me think about it was she tossed a good container that throughout this whole time had snacks and stuff in it in her car. I guess I was wondering if some do it to detatch from the timeframe. This is me thinking out loud on the forum. Also unless she extended she would have had to close on the house by jan 20. I am still hoping she decides to talk or I am going to have to start asking the questions.
On the flip side of that i was snooping and found a prepaid last txt dated back in sept. Took pics, maybe I goofed because its disabled now no visible scars. But it was a huge trigger I just want to tell her to decide or get out rt now it is possible this thing hasn't been used since sept. Not sure about telling OMW I can ask her about a phone number but I understand part of the EA is the drama and OMW will create that and it will give away my snoop. I feel like I should contain my issues here unles something obvious pops ups. 
Still plan A was just going to be cordial this week and alot more backed off than this past week.
Realistically if they want to talk they will use work phones. 
Time and patience right someone remind me sorry venting. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

8years
Give it some time and keep up the active listening. Are you trying hard to get her join you when you take the kids out?[/QUOTE said:


> Haven't really gone out the way her shifts fell she's been sleeping during daylight but she has had more time with the kids in house even if they r just in the same room is good. They start asking her for more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Another first: I think she has progress. Without any anger this was all talked about. She asked what i want from her I said transparency and honesty she believes in privacy, I explained the privacy vs secrecy. She didn't like that so I said i am open to options what do you want to do. She had no response she said she needs to let the realtor know About this house she sounds less enthusiastic about the house less I have to get out of here. 
Second conversation I made what I want completly clear. 100% of her affection, not shared with anyone else, repair the M. Her to not buy the house. I pointed out how I was there for her this week while she was suffering emotionally. She acknowledged that. I made clear she knows what i want I know I cannot make up her mind for her she needs to decide. Good bye was said neither of us angry. 
At one point i asked her if she wanted to fix this she did not answer. She thinks I expect an answer now so I said this took a long time to get here It will take time to fix. I said wether divorced or married whatever new relationship we have will be new not the old one it will be different. With alot of what she just said I am convinced she is at the Mid-life crisis point as well, wantd a new truck(she's always wanted a truck) she wants to live for today and not worry about 40 years from now. She feels no emotion and admits she has very little to give right now she says she is even struggling with it for the kids.
So once again time will tell.
And yet I remain on the roller coaster of post EA/PA and suspicion

Football


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## Affaircare

Disbelief, 

I'm just going to say that it seems to me you're in a fairly good place. That is to say, it sounds like you've settled down a lot and gotten ahold of your panic-emotional reactions and learned how to be pro-active. Likewise things like indicating the difference between privacy and secrecy tend to show me you're getting the idea.

I would say to keep doing what you're doing--it is very clearly getting her attention! I would also suggest that you and your wife take some time off and go somewhere for a long weekend. Now almost everyone I know says, "But we can't do that now! We have this and that, no vacation time at work, no babysitter, etc." Well based on what you've described your wife is likely teetering between realizing that she made you out entirely to be the bad guy and that she made OM out to entirely be the good guy--but in real life you aren't so bad and the the OM isn't so good! Right this minute she associates "bad memories" with you (sort of unrealistically, but still) and "good memories" with him, so take a long weekend, go to that night hotel you two have always said you want to try--take her out to that one restaurant or out dancing--then to a coffeeshop with poetry readings the next day. The idea is not "to be all romantic" because she is not there yet and that would be perceived as pressure. The idea is to do things together that you both enjoy and you look at each other and find you're laughing or smiling. Like plays" Get some tickets. Horse racing? Go to the races. For ONE WEEKEND don't be about home, kids, and the affair...be HER FRIEND and just enjoy the fun of her company as her friend would. In fact, you may even say "I have a crazy-fun weekend planned and I want to reassure you right now, this is not about romance or sex--just want to do something fun with you."

The second thing I'd suggest is that you constantly keep guard on your tendency to be controlling. Remember, SHE makes decisions for herself and all your watching and manipulating things won't "make" her do anything. A good example is the privacy/secrecy thing. It is NOT YOUR JOB to snoop on her email, cellphone, PC, etc. and then confront her if you "catch her doing something wrong." Acting like that would be as if you are her parent and she's just a child! Rather it is her job to decide and tell you what she will willingly do in order to rebuild your trust in her honesty. It would be on HER, then, to either show those things to you or to give you access of her own free will--and the two of you could look at the email, cell, etc. together. That would indicate that she is being transparent because she chooses to share herself and that you and she are equals in the marriage...not one controlling the other. 

Get it?


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## disbelief

Affaircare,
I should know tomorrow about her decision on the house she had to contact the real estate agent tonight. She freely told me all that. We have talked a couple times and I have made it clear that I can survive with or without her just my preference is to keep our family whole. The kids have hovered around her last night and today ( her schedule is messed up) between shifts and I think that is impacting. 
I offered a no strings attatched night out this past Friday she declined. I hope she will agree to be transparent but I keep making this decision hers. Since I cannot change her mind she has to want this. 
Well if I can't convince her on the weekend I will ask her again for the friday night. A hotel may not be the best, we are still sleeping in seperate rooms which are on seperate floors, however Daytime coffee house very possible this week. Good ideas, thanks.
We shall see how it goes.


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## 8yearscheating

Your doing great disbelief, stay the course! I think she is starting to break out of the fog.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Your doing great disbelief, stay the course! I think she is starting to break out of the fog.


We just might be on a baby step a day. She got off shift we talked. Normal conversation no R talk no anger. Stuff about kids work planning, she talked more about work today than in ages. She expressed she doesn't really want the house it needs lots of repair. She said she would rather stay in the basement and save money. She would also like to go live on the side of a mountain!? Mid life crisis = marital crisis?. 

Staying strong-slightly encouraged-still cautious


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## 8yearscheating

Keep the faith and hope! Do you remember the songs I sent you? If you have Itunes you can email them to her. With itunes open and the song highlighted click edit, then copy, then go your desktop and paste. Now you can email attaching the song from the desktop! A little sappy I love you song does wonders.


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## turnera

Don't know if it's applicable, but purging stuff can also be a sign of suicidal tendencies. I know I purged a LOT of stuff (which I now regret!  ) the two times I was close to it.


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## 8yearscheating

I'm sorry to hear you went through that turnera. In my own case and my wife's, we both started shovelling out years of old crap and in our case, it was a form of starting new and fresh in our lives. We both have left the old marriage behind and are working on putting the past behind us while still working on the relationship and communication issues that were in our marriage. A new day, new relationship with faith and trust, new vows, all with an understanding of what we made mistakes on before and how to correct or prevent those mistakes.

Disbelief, in your wifes case it may be nervous energy and desire to clean up her act in small ways. Watch for turneras suggestion.


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## turnera

Oh, believe me, I would LOVE to be doing that. When we left our first house 15 years ago, DH never went through all his stuff, that he'd been accumulating for over 10 years. Just boxed it all up and brought it with us. And never touched it again. When we moved to THIS house 8 years ago, he said he would...but again never touched it, AND added all the crap from the LAST house! I love to look at model homes, because they never have clutter. Heaven...


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## 8yearscheating

I don't remember what DH stands for. For myself, it was hard to get started and believe me I have a ton to go through yet. Just did my closet yesterday and hauled out 3 bags of clothes and one very heavy bag of junk.


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## 8yearscheating

Back to you disbelief - anything happening?


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## disbelief

Eli-Zor said:


> Anyone in an affair or aftermath of an affair who cleans, purges or removes traces from the PC is up to no good. Get yourself a keylogger and verify, never reveal what you are doing this is you confirming the status of the affair and protecting the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just reread this she isn't using the home computer only her phone so ?? Hard to get onto her phone I don't know it well enough to play the software game if she decides to keep it up we will be done.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Back to you disbelief - anything happening?


LOL that felt like a radio broadcast in my head. I think I posted that we talked this AM she got up late to goto work tonight and I was just coming in with the kids. I think she was a bit grouchy just normal waking up. No time for talking she has the next several days off I was going to ask her to do something just the two of us. I think she will decline. So we shall see. 
I am holding off asking the "have you been in contact question". Her tone of voice is softer. She is not as defensive.
She has not expressed direct interest in reconciling. I have not asked yet. I will be checking on the status of the D papers this week at the courthouse. She still doesn't know where the paperwork is. I think her cleaning was mostly her normal just a little more than usual.
Me I am OK.
Hope yours is going well 8.


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## 8yearscheating

I'm doing pretty well unless I read posts on this site then I begin to wonder if things have only been driven underground. It will NEVER be possible to know - there are prepaid phones, time at work on a computer unmonitored, etc. All I can do is take a chance as our MC says and trust her. My wife has promnised it is over and she has had no contaqct of any sort. SHe is being very oepn and transparent and trying to keep me updated on her schedule and what she is doing. I've gone off the edge with fear once and accused her of seeing someone and apologized once I cooled off because there was nothing to my fears - I verified it from a receipt. Trying to sleuth your way into trust won't work - though that is for the future for you. Your WW hasn't yet committed to anything on your end. When you see real remorse and a DESIRE to R you will know she ready. Then comes the NC, the full transparency, etc. I do think she is moving out of the fog and will start to turn back to you. Only time and patience will tell and your doing a great job. Stay the course!


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## disbelief

Anger sucks, I found your thread read some I do not know if I will have your tolerance. I am doubting the NC she has not gone at all transparent and I think I posted that I found an old prepaid. OM had it in NOV my W has it now oooops it doesn't work now. She will have to at least think twice if she buys another. If it continues I will tell her to move out serve her with legal seperation. IDK. Frustrating IDK how or at this point why we do it.
I am unsure if I should tell OMW about prepaid because she will spill the beans I think she is not grounded yet.

I just had the thought too, how much time do I give my W to open up and be transparent? 
Should I directly ask again if she is in contact or plan A safe harbor her kind of thing and wait to see if she comes around. I am not sure how or where my limit is with it. She is slow to express herself.

May we all be blessed with the strength to get throught this and come out better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Transparency won't happen until she commits to R and shows remorse without the excuses - meaning she has taken ownership of the affair. How long - I have no crystal ball. Read a thread from Jar today and he hung in for a YEAR and it still looks like it's headed for R. All I can tell you is what friends told me - no one can make that decision for you. You know your limits. With me, I set a 6 month maximum and I doubt I could it made it three if she had kept up the affair. Since your wife is supposed out of the affair, I wouldn't think more than month or two - again no crystal ball. As long as she stays there and you keep up what you have been doing and keep trying to change the things she needs changed - your chances are great. That is what my wife and our MC said turned my wife around - my persistance and desire to change as well to make it work. Our MC gave us zero chance based on our first visit which is where your wife was about two weeks ago. Stay the course - head up - keep your hope!!!:smthumbup:


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## disbelief

I had set 6 months in my head as well when she filed because it took that long to process oh yeah and your suggestion. That would be right near our anniversary. Hmmm. I feel I want this more for my kids rt now than myself. My gut says nothing rt now. Only time, keeping the hope never give up! Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

So, no D papers?


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## disbelief

No D papers 30 days has passed she doesn't know where they are or why she hasn't gotten anything in the mail she did ask me if I got them and threw them out I honestly have not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Could be a good sign-she may have just been bluffing, hoping you'd cave.


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## 8yearscheating

I wouldn't bring up the D papers. No need reminding her to do something. If your in it just for the kids, I doubt you'll make it yourself id you do try to R becuase that takes even more persistance and patience as well as a desire to start new and leave the past behind - forgetting what happened eventually. If the affair hangs on your mind and drives anger, you'll hurt her and drive yourself crazy. Make up your mind now for yourself. Good luck and hold that hope!


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Could be a good sign-she may have just been bluffing, hoping you'd cave.


She wasn't bluffing when I checked on it the clerk was kind enough to print me a copy it did not count as being served. A barely readable printout.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I wont bring up the papers for a. While she needs to deal with some realities though I am starting to think she may want to forget and just move on. If she wants to R I want to do it right. Hope lingers! You too 8 hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Something's not adding up-you saw the evidence of the papers, but they still didn't get to you? Perhaps she intercepted them, because she decided not to D after all?


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## disbelief

She failed to put a mailing address, I confirmed the process she needed to get something in the mail to bring to the sherriff to serve me. She has had a PO box forever how do u forget to put that. I was told 30days they expire this is day 33.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well no R talk but she will talk We about buying a new car and maybe the fog is lifting since a month ago she was set on affording her own house but. Now she wants a new car but not for a high monthly payment. That's how my wife used to talk not the alien. 
Time and patience I suppose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

She's moving out of the fog. Expect some relapses. Remember she is feeling real bad about herself. Talk positively to her about the things are great about her and stay off the A for now. Tell her she's a great mom. That your very proud of the work she does. She is still the most beautiful woman in the world to you, etc. Selfesteem builders as well as letting her know you do feel positive things about her and the A doesn't destroy those feelings. Safe Harbor. Time will come later when you talk about the A - a little at a time because she will be fragile. Remember that attacks will shut her down and make her pull back. I know you will have moments where your anger will boil - I did. The key is walk away and calm down before you continue or start a discussion. Keep any discussions short so you don't spiral out of control. SAme goes for her, if she starts the game of going negative, calmly say "I'll wait until your feeling better to talk" and walk away Great job and great patiience on your part. Keep it up. Good luck.


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## disbelief

Thanks 8 new vehicle conversation is taking place with her avoiding the A issue. She is asking why I am agreeable and I just want to say because its better than u buying a house and moving out. She got upset I staayed calm she later txtd to let me know when she would be at the dealer if I want to meet her. So I will meet her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Good job....cool head!


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## turnera

Sounds promising. Are you taking time to look at yourself and figure out what your Love Busters are, so you can eliminate them?


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## 8yearscheating

Suggestion disbelief, make her take out the new car loan in her name only, same with the insurance so your NOT liable for it just in case........ You don't want to be stuck with loan that is not being paid for a vehicle you don't have. If she asks why, the answer is she has made no commitment and you can't afford the payments alone. Don't argue, just state the fact. If she gets mad, walk away.


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## turnera

Heck yeah!


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## disbelief

Still looking at myself loan and. TRUCK. Will be I her name not mine. IC helping with communication to help me. Still going to the divorce support meeting tonight she frowned she Hasn't said she wants to reconcile. She did just say she was being nice asking. My opinion and she dropped the comment that its better than her buying a house even though she has not said she is not. It would be nice if she would give some straight up answers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blownaway

I give you a lot of credit for putting up with this. I'm not sure I could do it for this long. My H pulled the whole "don't know", "not sure", "need time", etc. ,etc. and I found it to be torture to live with that. IMO, it's a very cruel way for her to ask you to live. I've never been embroiled in an affair fog so it's really difficult for me to understand in my heart even though I can understand it in my brain. Most days, I just don't get it and wish it was all just a bad dream. Again, I give you credit for putting up with it, but I just worry that you are putting so much energy into her that you are completely ignoring yourself. If it ends up that it does not work out in the end, it will be really hard for you to detach yourself from this situation. I just wish the best for you. It's awful to say, but I don't much care about her wants and needs right now. I worry about you and hope you will know in your heart when enough is enough, if that's the way it has to be. ...


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## disbelief

blownaway said:


> I give you a lot of credit for putting up with this. I'm not sure I could do it for this long. My H pulled the whole "don't know", "not sure", "need time", etc. ,etc. and I found it to be torture to live with that. IMO, it's a very cruel way for her to ask you to live. I've never been embroiled in an affair fog so it's really difficult for me to understand in my heart even though I can understand it in my brain. Most days, I just don't get it and wish it was all just a bad dream. Again, I give you credit for putting up with it, but I just worry that you are putting so much energy into her that you are completely ignoring yourself. If it ends up that it does not work out in the end, it will be really hard for you to detach yourself from this situation. I just wish the best for you. It's awful to say, but I don't much care about her wants and needs right now. I worry about you and hope you will know in your heart when enough is enough, if that's the way it has to be. ...


Thank you for the concern I am taking care of me and my kids. Taking care of my kids takes care of me. if that makes sense. i get more hugs and love from my kids than I can count. I think I am only managing this long because of the combination of everything I am doing. This forum IC, books, writing, reading, friends etc.
She still has a big old wall up and after a short chat lets see I think it goes back to ah ummmm all her life. She says she will get through this that way. I nicely asked why changing to get through it wasn't a good idea. 

We talked a bit when I got back from the divorcecares class tonights topic was forgiveness. Here's part of the conversation
Me: So do I need to keep going to this div. Class W: Thats up to you. Me: thats not what I mean. W : what do you mean Me: are you still divorcing me W: I don't know where the paperwork is.

I also asked her if we could agree to try she said dhe would agree to try to make sure the kids grow up loved happy etc.


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## turnera

Sounds promising! You can't expect her to change over night, so just be firm on what you expect and don't back down when she starts abusing you again.


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## disbelief

I hope so, I hope she stays on this road home if not for me for the kids. Doesnt feel promising rt now we are sleeping in seperate rooms but neither one of us slept well and we r both grouchy. Getting kids off to school. 
I guess the posotive of the morning is I got the if you want to come with me to get the truck you can.
One need rt now espresso.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So we spent mostly all day together getting along small talk her truck errands. She is ok as long as I don't bring up the A But when do I get to? How long do I stay on plan A? She acts as if she is coming home to stay no defensive A attitude no obvious evidence. But. How much time is reasonable for this limbo?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blownaway

Bleck! Limbo is the worst! What does your counselor say about when/how to bring up the future? Not even details of the A yet, just information about where the needle is going to point. I know that this is a delicate situation, but it really stinks that you have to walk on egg shells around her. ... At some point, she needs to be knocked off the fence. I unfortunately don't know when that is. With me, I just knew. H was already moved out and I didn't yet know that there was someone else. He moved out under the auspice of a "trial separation". After about 6 weeks, he was just like your W; making small talk and going through the motions, but never really talking about what the future held and whether or not he even wanted to try to fix things. Ironically, about a week before I found out about what was really happening, he said he was going to come to a counseling session with me. He said he wanted to talk about his lack of communication because he was starting to see how much everyone was hurt by his total inability to express his feelings. I unfortunately will never know what was to come of that session since he was "outed" the night before we were supposed to go. At that point, whatever was left all just fall apart. In any event, what I wanted to say was that about 6 weeks after he left (before d-day), I just felt in my heart that he didn't want it to work. I told him that I would give him what he wanted - I would give him a divorce since it looked as though that was what he really wanted. He told me no; that he still considered it a "trial", but then ... well you know the story. I knew at the point that I said it. I wasn't angry or trying to get a reaction out of him; I was just really, really tired and couldn't fight the good fight anymore. So, like me, you'll just know.


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## disbelief

Thanks, I suppose I will know I suppose I need to. Pay attention to the subtle things but I like it straightg foward. You want to fix this or not. That's how I like it. Are ya messin with me or not. She was back on the I deserve nothing, she just wants to hold it all in and move on.

We'll see

The kids reel her back, my ic asked me how long I gave it I said 6 months I would try. We are 10 days short of a month since confronting. I guess that's really not that long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Remember what I said, she has to show remorse and come back on her own. You can't force that. If backed into a choice, she will choose the easy way in her mind which is D. Giver her time.


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## disbelief

So stay plan A huh? It's hard this evening. Gonna go for a ride. I am not forcing I am making sure I am steady I got mad at my plow and took a moment found myself praying......... surprised myself this is a strange trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> So we spent mostly all day together getting along small talk her truck errands. She is ok as long as I don't bring up the A But when do I get to? How long do I stay on plan A? She acts as if she is coming home to stay no defensive A attitude no obvious evidence. But. How much time is reasonable for this limbo?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Ok, what actually has happened? (sorry, too many to keep up with) She cheated with BIL, you exposed, she SAID she won't see him again, but you still find evidence of them talking AFTER she says NC, she's still at home, but now she won't DISCUSS what she did?

Do I have it right?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Ok, what actually has happened? (sorry, too many to keep up with) She cheated with BIL, you exposed, she SAID she won't see him again, but you still find evidence of them talking AFTER she says NC, she's still at home, but now she won't DISCUSS what she did?
> 
> Do I have it right?


Close, Yup longer EA than PA, supposedly once it turned physical it messed up the EA. After DDAY they really got talking again that was end of sept. OM said NC in Nov he broke it. OMW sent email confronting my W that really stirred them up. They said NC again. 2 weeks before XMass we did not believe NC with technology on our side OMW was able to find over 300 sent emails. All stupid stuff, But they were lying to our faces still in contact. 
Confronted each of them same time OMW confronting OM at same time i confronted my W. day before New years eve. My W got angry. New years eve OM went ballistic drinking. 
Since New years morning after all the blowout of confronting the only confirmed contact we have is OM contacted her via email she was asleep (ambien). I don't know the content. My W called from work to tell me it happened. 
2 Weeks ago we had a "divorce" counseling oh sorry she is a MC. But as soon as D came up that was the focus. I basically forced my W to answe directly if she was done with the M or not she yelled she was done. Since then she has been home more starting to act like her old self more and more. Threw out her ambien and a couple other meds that could have been affecting her judgement. 
Decided she wanted a truck called me to include me in the process. 

I was obviously not in a good mood tonight and was actually asked twice by her if I was OK that is the first time she has asked that throughout this.

She says she will never discuss the A, The pasteur running Divorcecares is suppossed to get me contact info for a good marriage councillor. Then I will bring it up again.

She wants to hold it all in.

BUT: Not ready for transparency, will not say what she wants, the house she says " i keep avoiding emails" The D papers she says " I don't know where they are"

Her phone is not attatched like velcro to her all the time anymore. She has turned off all of her audible notifications. 

Thats the big nut shell.


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## turnera

Ok, sounds like they may be done. So where you are stuck now is (1) telling her you will not stay married unless she discusses this and agrees to certain protections for YOU, or (2) you pretend nothing happened and kiss up to her to hope she'll stay and not look for ANOTHER OM, since you aren't fixing your marriage, and you spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder for the next hit.


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## turnera

Her threatening divorce IS a threat. It means, 'get off my back! I KNOW I screwed up and if you bring it up again, I will leave you, so you'd better not!'

What are you willing to accept? Her at all costs, or your dignity and MAYBE she sticks around?


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## disbelief

She did actually file. That should be expired. I am not willing to do this without transparency and all of that. I have stated to her that I will only accept 100% of her love and affection and I will not share her. I have also made clear she needs to decide. Divorce is not a threat to me anymore as I have said to her I wil be fine divorced or married with my preference being working it out especially with our kids and our history together.
I know all this does takes time I see baby steps I hope I see more.
thanks for the input
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I guess what I mean is, you need to set a boundary on how long you will 'wait' for her to decide. you need to let her know that YOU require certain things to get over her cheating. And if she is not willing to do what YOU need, she needs to leave. What you need will look something like (1) write a NC letter that YOU send to him; (2) hand over her phone/computer WITH passwords any time you ask to see them (so she doesn't have time to delete anything, like a spot check); (3) commit to marriage counseling, where you WILL discuss the affair; (4) anything else you need.

If you bury this now, and hope she'll bring it up later on her own, you're just letting her 'get away' with cheating, and it will create (or expand) a sense of entitlement in her. 

Right now, you are acting scared. Scared that, if you don't back off and let her be, she WILL leave you.

Is that the kind of marriage you deserve?


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## disbelief

Turnera,
I see your point just for the record I am not scared of her leaving I have reached the point that I know I will be ok either way and I have expressed that to her. My IC suggested backing off I have it's been 22 days since confronting I have seen alot of change and I want those answers. 
I just asked if we were ever going to talk and got the. "Alot of what you want to talk about I want to forget" conversation interupted. I intend to state to her that if she wants to heal this marriage we cannot just forget and bury everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

And when will that be happening? How long ago did your IC suggest backing off? How long did IC suggest backing off FOR?


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## 8yearscheating

There are no crystal balls. If she is starting to move in the right direction, don't change what your doing. The "I want ot put it behind me and not discuss it" is the same way wife was at that point. With the MC one she had decided she was serious about R, HE asked her and spilled almost all of the large details about the affair and my MC talked with her about what was expect and not expect from me. He flat out told her she would have to be transparent and there was no end date when I would trust her completely and that it would take time before my sense of security to be built up. We then talked about transparency which included answering questions about the A. He casutioned me to not dig too deep or would end being overload with too many triggers for the future. Some things I had to know. I stayed away from the gory detail like what they did. It will take time to get to this point. FIRST she has to commit to R. Again, woudl you ask someone which day they want to be executed and then insist on an answer that you want? That WILL not work. Wait, relax and keep up what you have been doing, she is coming around.


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## disbelief

We actually just talked my goal was to plant the seed that burying all this will only cause future pain and for her to consider a new MC. She expects that I will move on that she is nothing special. Her guard is up she wants to keep it that way forever. I got my points across once again that I want to fix this I staed I need direct answers. I cannot read her mind. 
She is not ready to open up. She is also not the Affair alien wife. She is guarded but slowly opening up. 
My hope is we can reconcile this in a healthy way and make it better and she knows that as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Give it time. Give it time. Find a new MC and check his credentials.


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## F-102

Keep living like you have been, "Dance with the one that brought you", they say. She is still feeling incredibly guilty, and for you to bring it up is probably making her feel like you will never get over it. Just give her time, maybe more than you were willing to give. Eventually, she will either tell all, or it will be so "behind you" that you may feel that you don't want to bring it up either.


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## disbelief

Right now if I didn't know it has all happened I would have chalked it up to a few grouchy months she is fully engaged in the house doing stuff she would normally do. She is distant but I guess this is a baby step.
The evening talk she started all calm but her comments of you are going to get mad and move on, you deserve better than me, I am nothing, I am worthless. It's not fair to you (to work on the marriage was the general talk before that staement). I feel nothing.

But actions: I was sitting right next to her on the couch, my arm on her leg casually. Some hugs. Stroking her hair at one point ( she has always loved that). She will not directly answer questions that involve committing to R: I asked once for now I don't. There is an event tomorrow that my mother is suppossed to be at she does not want to go at all. My mom does not know about A knows we are having problems.

Time waiting on time.

Good thing: she wants no one to know she bought the truck = OM won't know. If he does they are in contact. 

No Evidence of contact.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well I guess I really have to decide how much I want to work this because the reason we got here was her hinting and believing in mind reading. She at this point does not want to talk wants me to just see that she is taking those baby steps and not discuss it. But yet she will not say if she is even 0.000001% interested in fixing this. M.
she says I can do better she is convenient, and she feels what she wants doesn't matter of course her wants have gone from divorce to new truck and having fun with kids.
straight up told her that her being out with her sister and little info about what she was doing made me apprehensive she thinks I sent a friend to check on her ...... I didn't ..........
I made it very clear to her that yes I can live this life with or without her but my choice is to fix this M that is what I want not forced not me being needy.

She keeps saying she is nothing and I can do better. When she goes on with that I do not comment I told her I am not responding to those comments.
her guard is up, she doesn't know f it will take days weeks months or years to come down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Those statements by her are an attempt to get you to respond that she is worth it and you shouldn't discount them. Her self esteem and guilt is getting to her. I agree you do not make her think the affair is all gone and past and she has no reason for her guilt. What can and should do however, is to let her know there are things besides the affair that attract you to her and keep you trying and they aren't "convenience". IF you feel these, tell them to her - she is a great mom when she spends time with the kids and focuses on them ( indirectly this says she is a terrible mom when she is self centered and stays away from them for her own excuse they don't need her), she is a wonderful_____ at work and you are proud of her intelligence and the work she does. She makes you feel loved and needed when she wants to and that is the feeling you miss most right now. Your memories of the good times and how wonderful she was is what keeps going. You can also tell her how you voiced to your friends your feelings about her because you are so proud of her. By doing this, your not justifying the affair, you are letting her know there is more to her than the affair and that is what you want back. You can also tell her, the years you have had together have created a bond in you that is almost unbreakable - the almost being you will eventually lose hope.

She is not giving you any indication that she might want to reconcile because she hasn't made up her mind and doesn't want to give you false hope until she is 100% sure. That is specifically what my WS said when we started to reconcile and i asked her why she couldn't give me ANY hope previously. Don't take this as she is not considering R. I truly believe she is or she would be seriously working on getting out which she's not.

Keep the hope and give it time. 

On my side, I still have my moments where I wonder if I made the right decision to R. I look back on 20 years of this and three men and ask myself what was real and what wasn't in terms of how much she loved me. I can't reconcile that she loved me at all and that I was just being used as provider and caretaker. I also know she could go deep underground using prepaid phones and I would never be able to detect it. All I can do is what my MC suggested - take a chance and believe she honestly does not want to go back living a lie. She has told me she can't answer why she kept it up so long except that she never believed she would be caught so didn't really think she was hurting me. She says she regrets it all and wishes she could take it all back. She also says she understands the destruction she caused me and is now backing off on telling me she feels accused when I ask questions because she understands it's going to take a very long time to rebuild my trust in her. She also understands she needs to be extra loving to keep me strong and must watch for my times when I hit triggers and talk me down. If she hadn't turned this way recently, I was ready to walk away. So things are doing better but still a daily struggle for me. I'm telling you this in the hope you will remember when you get to this point. I think you will get there. Keep the hope up!


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## disbelief

Thank you for those words 8 it helps. I am overall grouchy today so that did not help but I remained calm with all I said.
I give you credit for working through your situation. I don't think I could. I hope she realizes how lucky she is. I reinvigorate hope sometimes too with some of the reconciliation stories. I have decided to be more up front honest and hold back less as well. Get my point across without offending but I am not going to compromise my well being for her to feel good she had the affair. I have consoled her she has offerred me next to nothing.

She needs to step up at some point.

I hope thing continue in a posotive direction on your end. You are defintley a strong individual. Hang in there.
Keeping the hope in the face of doubt!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Of course she's worth it, or you would've taken off a long time ago.
Hopefully, she will come to realize this over time.


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## turnera

What you are describing is EXACTLY why we tell you that you have to have - in writing - what YOU require to take your cheating spouse back. Once they are back, you start getting afradi to bring it up. Then...you never do. 

And she cheats again.


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## disbelief

Turnera, just to be sure we are on the same page, you are saying that I put in writing to my W what I require to move foward with the M/ take back my W.
You are referring to boundaries and transparency correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I agree he needs to know what he requires to R. Making a list that is hidden and secure is fine. Before he can begin to discuss this, she has to be willing to R and be showing remorse.

The following statement helps disbelief in what way?

. "Once they are back, you start getting afradi to bring it up. Then...you never do. 

And she cheats again."


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## disbelief

Ok just clartfy for me. I know what I need/ want I have not put it to paper. I should I see that. She is not ready to hear it. However in conversation about marriage parenting divorce parenting she brought it back to "there is more to marriage than parenting" I agreed and she had nothing else to say
So if I am understanding 8 and turn correctly list my M needs. Know them, present them. BUT she is not at that point yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Turnera, just to be sure we are on the same page, you are saying that I put in writing to my W what I require to move foward with the M/ take back my W.
> You are referring to boundaries and transparency correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes.

If you don't have it ironed out, once she's 'back in' she'll wiggle out of everything; what are you gonna do - kick her back out?


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## turnera

It doesn't matter if she's at that point yet. YOU need to know under what conditions you can accept her back. Because, likely, once she gives you the signal, you'll just be jumping at the bit to get her back home. Protect yourself.

Plus, writing it out helps you logic it out - what a healthy marriage looks like.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> It doesn't matter if she's at that point yet. YOU need to know under what conditions you can accept her back. Because, likely, once she gives you the signal, you'll just be jumping at the bit to get her back home. Protect yourself.
> 
> Plus, writing it out helps you logic it out - what a healthy marriage looks like.


So at this point you are saying write it out for myself. Not for her


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## 8yearscheating

For yourself I agree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yes. You need to have something that 'monitors' you, to keep you from acting out of emotion. Right now, while you're clearheaded, you can logic out what you need from her; on the day she comes back and tries to get you to take her back by promising great sex, whatever she knows you're craving, you can look at that paper and say, "Yes, but what about..."


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## disbelief

I will put that to paper. I think she is holding on for the family/kids right now she keeps coming back to that. Hugs are again a no go like it is painful for her. She is so guarded. I commented that I didn't know how she was feeling and she took resposibility saying it was her own fault. 
I am mostly numb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Divorce papers update. Despite her not knowing where they are......the first clerk was wrong. The docket stays active in the system for 90-100 days that would put me in the middle to end of March. 
So we are getting along as friends there appears to be no contact. Am I still plan A. Is the love dare book a good idea?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

For some reason, I'm thinking of the movie "Watership Down", when everyone thinks that the lead rabbit, Hazel, is dead, and Fiver, a rabbit with extraordinary intuition, refuses to believe them, and he goes off in the dark to search for him, encountering mists, fog, impenetrable brush, guided only by the spirit of the Black Rabbit. During this scene, Art Garfunkel sings "Bright Eyes".

Fiver is you, disbelief, your marriage is Hazel, and the Black Rabbit is the firm belief that you can save this. The words of the song, about a love that seems to be dying, reminds me of your state of mind, logic and reason telling you to give up, but deep down, you know you can save it. That, and Fiver risking everything to save Hazel, despite some telling him that it's a lost cause, simply reminds me of your story.

I know, this is awfully poetic and whimsical of me, and some of you are thinking "What the f*** is he talking about?!?!", but check it out on youtube: "Watership Down Bright Eyes."


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## disbelief

Maybe it is a lost cause, maybe not. I will give it time despite the fact (venting) I want to go in the other room and yell at her. WHERE IS YOUR HEAD WHAT DO YOU WANT, DO YOU CARE FOR ME AT ALL, WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE (oh yeah kids).
Wow yelling in type does help a little. 

There are posotive signs just tiny ones. We have not even hit a month since we confronted the emails so i suppose i should have some perspective.

Trust her now= No
Suspicious= yes
Cautious= yes
progress= i think so 

So that brings us back to time will tell.

Watership Down Bright Eyes........Will check it out.

MY gut says she wants to fix it.

What's the take on the 40 Day Love Dare??? I bought It don't Know about it.


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## SurprisedinME

Hi. I've read your thread, and am new here...7 weeks out from my own D-Day.

I think you are doing a lot of things right, and need to give yourself credit for them. I also strongly suspect that your W is not done with this OM or the affair.

It's just a gut reaction based on reading this thread and what you have said. I think she probably does want to be done, but deceit is something you get used to...and she got something v positive from this affair. Comfort, friendship...my guess is she isn't ready to give that up for good. on the other side is your marriage, which is hard work. 

I think writing out your conditions is excellent for you. Have not read Love Dare, but interested to hear more about it. I used another product, actually two, and found them very helpful. They helped focus me when I suspected and didn't have confirmation. I was able to do a lot of work on myself, which was great. 

It's so hard where you are. But it will pass. It won't last forever.


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## turnera

Love Dare is a waste of time with a wife with an agenda. With a WAW, maybe. If you want to do something, ask her to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire from marriagebuilders.com (I think affaircare has something similar). Work on THAT - eliminating any possible reason for her to be unhappy with you - aside from not letting her cheat or leave, lol.


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## disbelief

Well she almost said she wants to work on it. I offerred to do a small thing for her and she said well I don't want you to hold it over me and I ended up saying I have bigger things than that. This evening she was in a mood and went off about that and the conversation led to w this and that and the fact that we need to talk more and she said that is what she is trying to do. 
I still feel numb and like whatever.

I think in another week she might be open to the lovebusters.


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## 8yearscheating

Print it out and leave it with her to take the time when she feels like it. Focus on her responses and don't go over yours unless she asks to. That can come later in front of an MC.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> For some reason, I'm thinking of the movie "Watership Down", when everyone thinks that the lead rabbit, Hazel, is dead, and Fiver, a rabbit with extraordinary intuition, refuses to believe them, and he goes off in the dark to search for him, encountering mists, fog, impenetrable brush, guided only by the spirit of the Black Rabbit. During this scene, Art Garfunkel sings "Bright Eyes".
> 
> Fiver is you, disbelief, your marriage is Hazel, and the Black Rabbit is the firm belief that you can save this. The words of the song, about a love that seems to be dying, reminds me of your state of mind, logic and reason telling you to give up, but deep down, you know you can save it. That, and Fiver risking everything to save Hazel, despite some telling him that it's a lost cause, simply reminds me of your story.
> ."


Ya know every once in a while i wonder to my self why am I bothering. I realize right now Divorce would be more difficult. And really she filed almost 40 days ago and doesn't know where the papers are. The court is 5 minutes from her work. So to tell me she could not have fixed that by now. The house thing is done she didn't directly say but I got "what you think I can afford a truck anf house" I said realistically if you wanted to.

So I wouldn't start a new R for a very Long while if this one ended completly so might as well try to fix it maybe she will get her head out of her ---. Sorry a little vent. 
Then my mind wanders does this reach a point where it is eye for an eye. That must be my depresion lifting or detatching.

Like all have said if she was really absolutly done she would be gone.


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## SurprisedinME

I definitely don't think it's a lost cause. For one, you seem committed to your marriage. But if you are, you have to hold to what you want. I really learned a lot from DB and the Mort Fertel info. Working on yourself and being very clear about what you want really shifts things!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What's your list looking like?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> What's your list looking like?


The list is spread out between my head and journal. I will add list completion to my to do list. Not much down time in this house, those kids amazing how time flies when they have things they need done.

Thanks for the reminder though.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> I will add list completion to my to do list.


Hey, quit looking over my shoulder!

lol

Just remember, NO DECISIONS until you have that list done and have consulted it.

You can always say 'I need more time to think about it.'


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## 8yearscheating

How is it going disbelief?


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## disbelief

Thanks for asking. It's been kinda up and down but not so harsh as past months. 2 nights ago she got upset before work. Something stupid, she made a big deal out of an off comment I made hence the post where I mentioned talking more a couple back.
She shopped yesterday on her way home I surprised her and stopped in where she was. She wasn't mad and she is including me on decisions about accessories for her truck.
A little hug last night and sitting close, got a txt from friends to go out I told her I was going and saw a frown. A little casual talking. No R talking. She is not ready to face that. 
I was leaving today, snow all over so I did the so do I get a hug.....No response.....droppped the what am I not worth it and I got " no you are worth it I am not" I am not responding to her comments like that.

So she had the day with the kids Snow Day. And She has done/asked a couple things that show a little concern in making sure I am all set.

So I guess we have baby steps.

I want to build it better, she wants to bottle and forget.

Hope things are well on your end 8.


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## disbelief

And the coaster keeps rolling W brings up budget. says she will keep managing the bills. She can do this with her income and this with my income, essentially what we have been doing all these years. I hear her out pause think decide....180, boudary-ish....The last money talk was our incomes to seperate accounts and split the bills. She didn't like this. I had to expand on why. Bad judgement moment: I mentioned the fact that I am still awaiting D papers. W= now getting upset, soon after crying, I think I triggerred a whole bunch of emotions, her baby steps are obvious and she feels I should assume but I tell her given the past few months a direct statement of what is going on would ease my apprehension. 
She hates that i do not like to assume and that I cannot read her mind she believes she should be able to hint and I will know all of what she wants. She cried I sat in silence .......what else to do.
Thats that. 

sleep ah but to dream, How's that shakespeare go? ..............very tired......Thanks all for responses as always.


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## turnera

To sleep, perchance to dream...ay, there's the rub...

IMO, she needs a LOT of such painful moments. How else can she suffer and learn?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> To sleep, perchance to dream...ay, there's the rub...
> 
> IMO, she needs a LOT of such painful moments. How else can she suffer and learn?


Agreed I can see her trying to bury it. I have told her we need to deal with it if she wants to rebuild.

Alot of good it did having to memorize that shakespeaare so long ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

_To be, or not to be, that is the question: 
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer 
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune 
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, 
And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep— 
No more—and by a sleep to say we end 
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks 
That flesh is heir to. 'tis a consummation 
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep— 
To sleep—perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub! 
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come, 
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, 
Must give us pause—there's the respect 
That makes calamity of so long life. _


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## 8yearscheating

Two things disbelief. When she says I'm not worth it, don't ignore it. Say "If you weren't worth it to me one of us would be gone. That's not what I want and you are worth it to me." These statements are why I suggested telling her (not in response to this comment but in general conversation) how proud of her you are as a mother, in her work and any other good things she does. I'm assuming you can say it sincerely or you would not want to stay married. If you need to, make a list of the positives about her and why you love her. Then let her know. In day to day life, especially before the A, we tend to focus on the arguments and bad things and not give praise for the good. I know I didn't tell my wife some of things I said to coworkers and friends about her. It will help her understand why you want her back and give her some self esteem. It will also make her feel very, very good about you. "OMG, he said all these great things and apologized for not being more vocal about how special I am in the past!" As time goes on, you need to keep doing this. Remember, one oh **** cancels 10 atta boys! Just keep it sincere. A couple of these a day - don't do a I like data dump!

On a second point, the finances are point of trust with her. My wife always took care of ours as well, paying bills, etc. Of course you are concerned she will do something stupid and you trust is at all time low right now. Ask yourself, is there any damage she could do that I would not be able to find out? I kept copies of balances and transactions until I was sure it was OK. But I told her I still had confidence and trust in her to be above board and do it properly. I told her she had always done a great job and I greatly appreciated all the work she did with did with it (I meant it) and saw no reason to change anything unless she continued to pursue moving out or talking about divorce. I left it as one of the things that WOULD change to separate accounts and separate finances with her paying me child and home expense support when moving out and D moved forward. Until then we would leave things as they were. It showed I had some trust and confidence in her - a big morale and self esteem booster for her and proof she won't be punished if you R. Believe me, she is doing enough self punishment.

You are doing great - don't be cold. Start texting nice love texts and how much you miss her warmth and holding you. Replace the A negative in texting with your positives. Start wooing the lady.

On my side, I am finally starting to be able to put it behind me with lots of work yet to do. I guess I've learned that anger and harsh words do more damage than good and I've decided I need to a lot more proactive at engaging brain before opening mouth. We have made a rule that texting and e-mail is not for feelings. Those need to talked about and NOT while fired up or angry. Whenever I get scared or angry, I force myself to step back, change my line of thinking to the future and the positives I want. I then let her know I need to talk and need her to show extra loving support to help me focus on the positives. She has been very good about it and is backing off on the anger she has over being monitored or feeling accused when I ask questions. So, we are doing very well. I am starting to stay positive more than scared or angry. Hard road, but very worth it. I'm like a teenager again, head over heels in love and always ready to jump her bones like I was when I was young.!

Keep the faith my good man.


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## disbelief

Affaircare....thanks for the whole bit there shaking up cobwebs in the brain

8 thanks for the input. The money thing for us needs to change it creates stress the way it is/ has been. We were disagreeing I suggested we meet in the middle she agreed to doing that or that it was a good idea. We just have t find the middle.

My biggest prob rt now is she wants me to assume what she is doing, I want to hear the words no divorce or let's work on it.......time I know

8 hope all continues in a posotive direction for u. Sounds like u r doing well.
Stay strong thanks again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well tonight is the one month mark since confronting W on continued contact with OM besides the one emailing incident while she was sleeping there is no evidence of contact. Her behavior is all towards repairing M. She however will not say so. This morning I am not happy and I am unsure which approach to take I suppose it. Depends on if she gets home from work with shopping bags or not it is not unusual for her to stop and see a relative on the way home. She is late. No call no txt don't think she gets how it makes me feel I explained once. No transparency yet I have yet to bring it up again. I want to get into a pro marriage councillor first. I found a nearby christian councillor but I don't think it would work out he suggested alot of prayer and although. She was raised catholic she is doesn't even want to goto church now. 
She's home stopped to see the relative. Its still frustrating I did not say anything. Dont care to rt now.
I have been plan A and maybe more there for her than I should be I was going to 180 and well that would be acting the same as she does to me. We have several days off together this week anybody have ideas for that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Try to spend non pressure non r time with her just having fun. Go shopping with her. Take the kids out together. But try to keep it light and show her the loving, good side of yourself, the loving side only as far as she allows. If she wants to talk, listen. If she start on the I'm not good enough, focus on the praise I talked about before and how much you love her, miss her and want her, not the A. Don't push any agendas or plans yet. When she finally tells you she loves and wants to R, there will plenty of time to talk about the details of what you need (like transparency) and the A. Just keep giving it time. Head up - go burn off some frustration like I did yesterday.


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## F-102

Here's something, though it may sound mundane, my w and I liked it: take one day and just stay in the bed, and watch movies together, and hold each other. You may be surprised!


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## disbelief

Its a thought but we are still sleeping in seperate rooms on seperate floors of the house. I like the thought thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

My thought, and something I've found hard, but VERY powerful:

Make one promise, to yourself and to her:

From this day forward, SPEAK ONLY THE TRUTH.

If your truth harms her, if it pushes her away, if it gives her a reason to blame you and leave you...

then she doesn't really love you, never did, and what you had was a sham.

YOUR TRUTH is who you are. If it doesn't fit her, it wasn't a real marriage.

And what marriage could you possibly have if you can't be yourself, and be totally honest?


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## disbelief

Sounds good, I believe I have been doing that but I think actually stating it in conversation would be good. My W needs to learn to speak what's on her mind even if it may hurt feelings.Scorpio, Jan 31:

My free horoscope today, its been spot on throughout this.
Your flexibility is paying off and people will soon reward you for your patience.
by astrolog.com

The W had a nightmare last night enough where she txtd to see if I was up and then really didn't want to be alone. I asked do u want me to sit for a while and got the defensive I don't want to bother you......
And she had an appointment this AM and actually offerred to come back and pick me up to help her shop for truck accessories.

Hmm baby steps. 

All this even after an argument/heated discussion yesterday where she was being all negative about our M the hous saying I was super controlling of every detail, so I did that repeat back and agreed with her thing and got a very somber response.

Time will tell, I am not miserable and the kids are happier when she is here more so.......
time and patience and looking at the big picture of life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Good job Chief. Being the better man and a secure place to go helps! Keep the faith.


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## disbelief

Thanks 8 trying...... maybe some Billy Joel keeping the faith. Still no evidence of contact with OM so that. Appears ok also... let's all keep truckin!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Did you ever do the Love Busters questionnaires? I can't remember. If not, print them out and ask her to fill it out so you can 'see where I went wrong.' Knowing what makes her unhappy is the easiest way to STOP making her unhappy.


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## F-102

Just let me be a little nonsensical here:
That must be one hell of a truck!!!


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## Affaircare

disbelief~

The longer she goes with No Contact, the more she will withdraw from the "high" of the affair and be able to think somewhat clearly. I mean--before the affair was she fairly logical and reasonable? If so she'll return more and more to that kind of person. 

*HOWEVER *(and this is a big however), there are two big things to consider: 

1) Just because she's not contacting someone else doesn't mean that the conditions that caused the affair are gone. It sounds like you may have done some work on the homework I gave you that one time and on making your lists, but it also sounds like there may have been some behaviors that you *used to do* when you were dating that you stopped doing over the years...and other behaviors that you started doing over the years that are things that kill love (things like emotional neglect maybe or being a faultfinder...as examples). 

Therefore, if I were you I'd look at our Quizzes and do the personality quiz and the love languages quiz. They are a start to changing the conditions that caused the affair--and you will want to work on those things whether she does or not because they'll make you a better human. 

2) It sounds like she may be a "sweep it under the rug" kind of person or maybe "ignore it and it will go away". Just to let you know, her affair happened for a reason. If you two do not face it and deal with it, that reason will still be there and chances are about 99.99999999% that this will happen again. Thus, if you do not want to have her just find another guy and live through this nightmare again, you two will *have to* address it. Her continuing to refuse to answer actually *IS* and answer: NO. So if I were you, I would let her know that you still desire to repair the marriage and you can see some hope that the two of you can do it, but that you are not willing to wait forever and that you do have a deadline in mind. From what I can see, it sounds a little like JAR's wife in that she refuses to look at herself, take personal responsibility for what she's done, and work it out. 

When we're little, we are taught that lying is wrong, and if we do lie, that the way to fix it is to admit it, get a spanking or punishment, and it's over. Right? It's the same as a grown up. By prolonging this and refusing to admit she was wrong, and refusing to face up to her own choices, she is avoiding repairing what she harmed. 

Honestly, disbelief, I'm saddened to say that what I see happening is that she had an affair, did not stop of her own accord, and now won't do anything to fix it...and you are tolerating being treated that way. If I were you, I would want the marriage, but I'd also let my partner know in no uncertain terms that it's 100% of their affection and loyalty or it's packing time. I wouldn't tolerate this slow disrespect.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Did you ever do the Love Busters questionnaires? I can't remember. If not, print them out and ask her to fill it out so you can 'see where I went wrong.' Knowing what makes her unhappy is the easiest way to STOP making her unhappy.


I have not yet. She is still very resistant to any "outside help" books, how other people healed or anything like that. She wants to fix herself, she told her IC she would not be back. She also said one of her reasons was that she did not nrrd someone telling her that things are not her fault.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Just let me be a little nonsensical here:
> That must be one hell of a truck!!!


Jusr a new to her truck a lightly used trade in we/she found. Now she is adding stuff. I would rather her focus be there!


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## disbelief

Affaircare said:


> disbelief~
> 
> The longer she goes with No Contact, the more she will withdraw from the "high" of the affair and be able to think somewhat clearly. I mean--before the affair was she fairly logical and reasonable? If so she'll return more and more to that kind of person. .


She was reasonable and logical. She is acting more like her old self

The rest of your post is right on target. She is trying to sweep it under the rug never wants to speak of it again.

She has stated that this was all her fault thsts about the only response takng responsibility.

She plain does not want to speak of it.

She does need to take responsibility.

Thanks,
Will be rereading and reviewing what I have done to change things


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## 8yearscheating

She also has not commited ot reconciling which in my case came before complete transparency and remorse/ownership of what my wife did. Even now, my wife blames that the affair happened because of our marital problems. We had a long talk last night that the affair was her mistake entirely. She can;t use the excuse of the marital problems for what she did. SHe can expect that we fix those problems to start a new relationship. She needs to understand why she did what she did and what she can do to prevent it it in the future. We have talked in general terms about this, but she really can't explain why other than say it was always when she mad at me and her recurring/ongoing depression. She is working with IC to understand her feelings and get help with meds to stabilize the depression that has never really subsided - just cycled.
So I'm not sure your wife is ready yet for remorse and ownership. Before R starts, that will happen. She needs to decide to commit to R first. I think your going in the right direction and I don't think pressure to take ownership will help right now. Only encouragement to start reconciling. There is no schedule or script. You'll know when the time is right disbelief.


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## disbelief

I hope you are still making progress and coping ok 8. My W right now just wants to forget the whole time frame said don't even make reference to it. Her behavior has changed alot back to the wife I knew in 4 weeks. I am pretty much still in plan A the less conflict I create and the more stable I am when she creates the conflict I have definitely noticed that afterwards she is the one behaving as if there is the need to make up for it. The last two discussions which were not cheerful I ended when the negativity was to much. 
I feel like this is a reverse logic process. I want to address all the A issues now .....she doesn't want to speak of it. She will bring up Marital issues. 
She has stated that this situation is her fault, that it is not mine, she has said a simple apology once, you just made me realize that the time frame hers started. EA we had dealt with several life issues, but the time frame it turned PA she was angry with me, supposedly the PA was very brief.
I don't excuse her choices she probably justified it somewhere in her head her moms done it her sister has. Her parents were Div.
Once again time and the big picture. I am only doing what I would want done for me had I been the disloyal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> I have not yet. She is still very resistant to any "outside help" books, how other people healed or anything like that. She wants to fix herself, she told her IC she would not be back. She also said one of her reasons was that she did not nrrd someone telling her that things are not her fault.


Well, then, this is a mistake that YOU made. You did not give her a set of requirements for YOU accepting her back after cheating on you. YOU deserve certain things to make your life sane again. No contact, of course, total access to her phone and computer so you can verify NC, but also marriage building. Without it, she will cheat again. Guaranteed. Especially if she won't even TALK about what she did.

I liken it to the kid who steals from the candy store. One dad just says 'hey, that was wrong, don't do that again!' and they go on their way. The other dad takes his son back to the store, makes him apologize for stealing, and orders him to work in the store to make up for the cost of the candy he stole. Which one do you think will steal again?

Do NOT let this be swept under the rug! Are you so desperate to have her back that you'll accept whatever she determines she wants to do, for the next 60 years?


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> My W right now just wants to forget the whole time frame said don't even make reference to it.


And why would you accept that? Just to have her back?


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> The last two discussions which were not cheerful I ended when the negativity was to much.


Do you see how you are being _trained_? Trained to shut up and let her be?

I'm not telling you to be an attack dog; just understand that there has to be an 'understanding' between you two that this is not over, that you will NOT accept a relationship with her without her discussing this and you finding closure.


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## disbelief

Turnera, I do not disagree with all of that. I am not being trained. I cannot present via text every event that occurs. She specifically does not want to talk about A detail heck I don't want to know! 
I have stated to her more than once I need transparency, we need to work through the issues not bury them if we wang to heal and rebuild. I have not said I forgive yet I have said I am capable. 
I guess my mistake hindsight being. 20/20 would be that I didn't tell her to get out right away I was to soft. Yes I have the rescuer personality.
She gets mad because I bring it up my response to that has been to the effect of well we deal with it now or later. 
I have made the statements that she needs to decide. We( me and kids) I will especially get through this and make sure the kids are ok too.
this reminds me I have to make a call about a MC
and shovel alot of snow.
I welcome all input so I can save this M the rt way through all my faults and mistakes. Never done this before!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

In marriage recovery there is a you me us factor right? We just had a conversation it went south which actually allowed me to address what is needed to make this M work. She does not want to do councilling or groups she just wants to forget and move foward I once again expressed that it wont work that way. Just hung my ring on the key rack..............bad idea?

She did not rebut the idea that there is a you me us factor. For this to work and recover she said I need to recover. It went back to she is not going anywhere because she is not leaving her kids.
oh what fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm sorry.

But you know if you give in and shut up, you'll just find yourself in the same place 2 or 3 years from now.

But good for you for speaking your part! That is SO vital!

She doesn't have to agree with you, but she does need to HEAR it! 

That said, she also has to see your boundaries in action.


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## disbelief

I figure I covered all my things I had to get out for now lots of snow lots of shoveling alot more time off together this week but I think its time for it to percolate in her. I am ready to say that if she is not willing to do anything different then she should find her D papers because I have admitted I need to change but she has not.
so it maybe best if I bite my tongue for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I suggest you come up with a timeline - say February 12 - and if she hasn't come forward by then, you do make changes. Let her know you're backing off on it, but you DO expect her to come to a place inside where she can deal with this with you, because you won't wait for forever. Once the deadline comes, you tell her why you are moving on - you gave her a chance and she ducked it.


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## Affaircare

:iagree: I think this is somewhat reasonable advice because otherwise she can postpone forever. Also bear in mind that everyone has a different timeline and each person can tolerate different things. I'm not trying to tell you what your timeline should be--some set it for 2 weeks, some for 2 months--but have an idea in mind and let her know you do expect her to get to a personal point where she can deal with this with you. 

Likewise, I don't mean this as a reflection on you but some people DO choose to tolerate having their partner be unfaithful and taking them back without any work or change. Maybe you are a guy who values having "a wife" (even if she is a cheating wife) higher than having a faithful wife or nothing. It's been my experience that when people tolerate infidelity and neither one changes--it just happens again. But ultimately it is up to you to decide and it is your life. 

So I guess the big question, disbelief, is "Are you willing to tolerate unfaithfulness in your marriage?" If the answer is yes, then really you're done--she didn't leave, but she doesn't respect you enough to keep herself only for you. If the answer is no, then there is still more to be done and you just can not keep avoiding it. It's been a month...


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## disbelief

The answer is no, the timeline idea is good. She is going away with her sister next week that will help. I think I will lean towards the dark side (ha ha) and. Let her do all the contacting unless the kids want her if that sounds like a good idea. 
I might go with futher out. Feb vacation with kids I see as an opportunity to build and remind her. The end of that week I could set forth my need again for us to attend retrouaville for example. 
On my end this would also provide me a bit of time to address M issues she has and continues to complain about.
I was considering the DB idea of a set time per week to discuss the issues of course I would like to do this with a pro marriage councillor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

You know, I often recommend that the two folks in the couple make an agreement like: 

"The DS will answer ONE (2, 3) question(s) a day about the affair fully and honestly in detail. 'I don't know' does not count as an answer. The questioning/talking will be for 30 MINUTES (45, 1 hour) and then it will stop for the rest of that day. " 

This kind of agreement ensures that the LS can ask the questions they need to know for their recovery, and also ensures the DS that it won't become The Spanish Inquisition ...

...because NOBODY expects The Spanish Inquisition!


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## turnera

I like that. Kind of like the weekly family status update meeting, where people bring their issues and work them out, and the rest of the week is reserved for good feelings (cos you know you'll be able to talk about it at the meeting).

But you're a LONG way away from that!


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## disbelief

Affaircare said:


> You know, I often recommend that the two folks in the couple make an agreement like:
> 
> "The DS will answer ONE (2, 3) question(s) a day about the affair fully and honestly in detail. 'I don't know' does not count as an answer. The questioning/talking will be for 30 MINUTES (45, 1 hour) and then it will stop for the rest of that day. "
> 
> This kind of agreement ensures that the LS can ask the questions they need to know for their recovery, and also ensures the DS that it won't become The Spanish Inquisition ...
> 
> ...because NOBODY expects The Spanish Inquisition!


I recall reading that at some point. In this agreement could be to allow the time but if it so happens you do not need the discussion time about the A then u don't force it right?
in the chat we had today I said what reassurances do I get and reminded her that I was hurt too not just her who is having issues. 
This afternoon she is more subdued the only way I can describe the way she behaves after things like that without a really confusing post is her behavior is like a puppy trying to get the alpha males approval. Subdued slow approach, eyes down head down asking approval on simple things. I want to give today a couple days to sink in with her. I said alot. I hung my ring up in plain sight. I have never done that. She needs to figure it out and face reality. I keep nudging it on her. But now she is not completly withdrawn after I do so I guess that's good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I think you're doing fine.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> I think you're doing fine.


Thanks, I wouldn't be without the support of this forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I know the feeling. I floundered for 20-25 years before someone literally pushed me toward finding a website whose posters educated me, helped me, and I grew. Hope I can do the same.


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## disbelief

I'm a 911 type I want to dive in learn it all fix it now. So when dday hit it was knowledge and solution search. With my W rt now she straight out said she needs time. She wants to have normal conversation and not talk abot the A every day or every other. She said she will end up skipping nervous breakdown and doing worse if we have to keep talking aboug it. She wants to bury it. I actually believe this is more painful for her at this point than for me. She is internalizing everything I am not. A couple of her fears: I will hold this over her forever and I will have a revenge A. 
This is a life challenge I never expected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Give her some confidence. I told you how earlier. Add to that that you never broke your vows and you won't now or in the future if there is one. But that future needs to start soon before you lose your motivation to work for it. As far as holding it over her head - you will have to recover from the axe to the head she gave you and you will. Your fears about ehr going back to affair life will take time to subside. But you won't attack her and you will do your best to not to hurt her more over it. She just needs to accept responsibility and HELP you heal. Y The two of you TOGETHER can make it through supporting each other to heal. I would add, you BOTH need to see an MC to work through the old issues you were never able to resolve together and to help mediate when hard issues come up about the A.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> I'm a 911 type I want to dive in learn it all fix it now. So when dday hit it was knowledge and solution search. With my W rt now she straight out said she needs time. She wants to have normal conversation and not talk abot the A every day or every other. She said she will end up skipping nervous breakdown and doing worse if we have to keep talking aboug it. She wants to bury it. I actually believe this is more painful for her at this point than for me. She is internalizing everything I am not. A couple of her fears: I will hold this over her forever and I will have a revenge A.
> This is a life challenge I never expected.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, I fully believe her. Cheaters face unbelievable guilt!
Which is why I suggested maybe a weekly discussion of your marriage. If she can't handle a daily 'beating' then fine - arrange a weekly 'discussion' wherein YOU get to be heard.
If she thinks the marriage can survive without YOU being heard...well, that's not really a marriage, is it? It's just a safe haven for HER while you are the Giver.
That is NOT a marriage.
HEAR her while expressing YOUR needs.


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## disbelief

Good points 8 I have been covering most of that. Today I made reference if we are fixing this marriage and that she needs to decide. She says she is not going to open up to anyone so she cannot hurt anyone and she cannot. Be hurt. We are talking much more civily about non M stuff so more baby steps
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

As long as you have a deadline, where she doesn't GET to keep saying 'i don't want to talk' any more.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> As long as you have a deadline, where she doesn't GET to keep saying 'i don't want to talk' any more.


I am stewing on that one, I have told her if we are going to fix this i want to rebuild it better. She has no response but doesn't go running. She cannot grasp the transparency concept. Divorcecares class tomorrow is on reconcilliation. 

Maybe i do three weeks from now discuss new MC, pro marriage. Try to plan A and be a friend have a good vacation week and the last week of feb/ first week of March start MC again.

Then I can, based on her moods discuss retrouaville. They are her first weekend of April. Work Schedule conflicts but I have read some good things about the program and i hope she will agree to go and change her schedule.

Hows that sound, my end time in my head was June thats still in my head.

Hows that sound.


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## turnera

Well, you should never have let her stay without transparency. 

Period.

Why? It is a show of humility, an admittance and an understanding that YOU have been harmed, and YOU need something to make this marriage worth keeping. 

If I were you, I would discuss the transparency, NOW. If she refuses, tell her you will help her pack her bags.


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## disbelief

Honestly I figured I would be doing all The divorce work now. I know I read a good explanation of transparency omwhere I need to find it again to explain it to her. She thinks that its one way and I get to see her stuff but I can keep secrets.
I have also read that transparency will come willingly with her commitment to the M. She had the A and she will say " I created this situation and I have to deal with it" 

So she knows I want transparency, I have not pushed it because she withdraws. We had an R talk yesterday I was. Going to skip it today. She goes away for a week she would have time then for lovebusters and transparency maybe a friday or saturday night talk. Thinking work schedules and best conversation time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Tunera - for god's sake get off the pressuring and ultimatums.

"If I were you, I would discuss the transparency, NOW. If she refuses, tell her you will help her pack her bags."


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## turnera

What is your solution, then, 8? The longer he accepts her as she is, the less likely it will ever be addressed. And nothing will get fixed, and she'll meet another guy and cheat again.


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## disbelief

Honestly I think she is to scared to say she wants to try. If that. Is what she wants. I maintain my goal of save the M each time it comes up I add details about recovery. 
She expects to be hurt expects me to give her the boot. She is not understanding why I want to fix this no matter how I explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Honestly I think she is to scared to say she wants to try. If that. Is what she wants. I maintain my goal of save the M each time it comes up I add details about recovery. 
She expects to be hurt expects me to give her the boot. She is not understanding why I want to fix this no matter how I explain. Then again she may not want to fix it at all. She certainly does go into defensive mode when D comes up. I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

disbelief - keep at it - slow but sure. 

You got lots of people here reading and pulling for you and your family. 

Keep showing her the NEW YOU and how you act with the kids and her. Make your home the best and most loving you can make it. 

I never went through infidelity (my situation was just pure neglect of my wife and children that drove my wife away), but my wife told me it was my actions that spoke louder than my words is what made her stay and work out our relationship. She recently told me it was like marrying someone new - I had changed that much. Still in recovery and I do slip into bad habits sometimes but it's 1000% better than last year this time. 

Part of my change was making sure that I was doing all I could to meet her emotional needs and those of my children. Another part was just cutting out all those love busters like angry outbursts. 

In your situation - why is your wife expecting to be hurt? Have you identified what her top emotional needs are and are you trying to meet them in some shape or fashion?

I have lots of hope that your relationship will survive and improve. Don't give up that hope either! Without hope all is lost!


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## disbelief

Powerbane,
Thanks, I have notn100% identified the top emotional need she has said that she just wants to be able to have someone to talk to. I was always there she chose not to talk so now I do the validation and just listen I used to offer solutions to issues that I guess made me controlling.
I think her fear of being hurt/ being left/ someone turning their back on her comes from OM" dumping" her, her teens and childhood when her parents divorced, she is just expecting me to be mean and seek revenge.
I have in no way threatened her throughout this, she fears opening up she wants to keep the wall up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

See if you can get here to agree to seeing an MC - no commitment, either as someone to mediate how to handle divorce or to see what possibilities there are to discuss to make the relationship better with someone to help guide the conversation. Leave the R part out for now. When she's ready, that will happen. It might be smart to talk to the MC yourself just to ask how he would approach the present situation. You can let him know, you want to make sure you he understands you are doing this to save the marriage. 

What about the lovebusters and emotional needs questionaires? Any luck with that?


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## disbelief

She has been on the no more councillors streak. I mentioned her going back to her IC an finding a new MC the other day she had no response.

I have not presented the questionnaires yet. I am going to print them while she's at work tonight. I think she still wants her fantasy life. Budget was an issue last night she is upset about using her money for bills. That had never been a problem. I made reference to the budget she came up with when she planned on buying a house and that she expected I could run this house on my income alone.
well she is defensive already today denies it but that's how she presents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Perfect issue to discuss with an MC as a mediator. I'd stick to 50% of all house expenses such as mortgage, utilities and other home expenses as well as 50% of everything for the kids. She is going to b*tch about the house saying if I'm not living here why should I pay? The response is, it was a commitment as part of the marriage. The market is for sh*t and it is not worth selling it until the divorce is final if that what she wants. Until then, the costs remain and are 50% her responsibility. Cut and dry. Despite what you think, it will be one big hit she didn't think would be expected and will put a severe crimp on any fantasy lifestyle she had in her mind. Again, this is a perfect topic to discuss with an MC as a mediator. You both need that to realistically discuss it without it becoming an over emotional issue. She may buck it as you say. Just tell her you know it can't be discussed rationally without that help and won't. So if she wants to discuss it further, it will have to be with help. Once your with an MC, more will happen beyond that point.


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## turnera

If she says she just needs to talk...then talk! Talk about your zoo. Your college team. Her childhood. What her old best friend is doing now. What she thinks of the newest styles in clothes. Whether she thinks Egypt will be better off without Mubarek. 

Anything!

Just grease the wheels. I'm sure that, when you were dating, you guys talked about everything under the sun. THAT is the man she wants back, that is why she married him.

Stay away from relationship for a few weeks. Let her bring it up. 

Just be there for her.


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## disbelief

I have been trying to do that. Mostly works the budget thing really tweaked her but oh well she established the cost of this house per month therefore with her still in the house some of my income is being taken out of the general fund but enough left to cover half of the monthly expenses.

So for now ill be nice no R talk planned inmy mind maybe even until after kids feb vacation. That's my goal. Then lovebusters transparency talk retrouaville planning etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Right now, it's like you're in a small boat that is high and dry on the beach, she is acting like a slow tide coming in, with the water advancing and receding just a little more with each small wave: Give you a little, tell you a little more, then recede a little, go back to "Why don't you just divorce me and get it over with?", then start being nice again, give you just a bit more, then recede again, then advance, recede....
Eventually, after what may seem an eternity waiting, the tide will come in and your boat will be under way again, and the patience you are displaying will allow that to happen-keep it up!


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## disbelief

That's a good analogy, I can only hope my horoscope is on target today it promises romance (LOL) 
she just asked me to go to the store with her there's the tide. Maybe it was the things I did for her yesterday maybe it was my ring hanging next to her keys IDK. RESILIENCE And INTEGRITY, are in my core. So time will tell. I think this maybe like tearing. Down her wall and putting those bricks in place one by one around our marriage occaisionally there are work stopages and strikes due to disagreements and unions and management not seeing eye to eye if I think of it in those terms I can relate to my own sitch better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Yes kinda of like have 5 musician unions all playing in the same orchestra! Keep it up disbelief, your doing great. The talking thing, paraphrase what she said and ask her what she would like to talk about? Let's try!


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## disbelief

So my next chance at a basically no expence marriage program is March 25 weekend. Thats 3 months since confronting. It is called strong Bonds used by the Military, and they use a P.R.E.P. system. A chaplain has told me they have had success, run by chaplains but not religion focused. 
My other choice is first weekend of April Retrouaville, affordable, not religion focused, Run by couples who have all been through the program and saved their M. They have six follow ups.

If things keep going the way they are I think it may be good timing, does anyone have any opinions. 
All details are easy on google or I can PM them.


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## Powerbane

I know a couple of friends that facilitate those sessions in Retrouavalle. Seems like a good program. I know my friends like it.


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## disbelief

Random comment, I feel like I could be done with her today out and away from home no w no kids, happy looking at and talking to the people around me. What's that mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

It means you're falling out of love with you. It means you waited too long to take a stand because the harm she's done may have been too deep to recover from.

Not saying you can't recover. Just that, now, you're more ready to walk away, and if she does want you, she's going to have to do some proving.


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## 8yearscheating

It means to me that your getting close to hitting your limit. I had those feeling on and off until she decided to R. They usually passed though. If it's constant, you need to decide if your really done.


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## F-102

Just means you're normal. Nothing like some alone time to find yourself again!


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## disbelief

Maybe we r all correct as I think about it I was always a big flirt growing up the MD has given me the rt help to avoid depression. I want to flirt again I am happy talking with my friends again. I actuall don't desire a new relationship. 
I recall being like this throughout the m well adjusted and OK while away from home. However when I get home I do want to hug and love her and that baseline feeling has not escaped me. 
So maybe these are steps to the more mature relationship or the end back to time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So I just had this thought.................. do I come out and tell her now she really is losing me or wait on time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Wait for as long as you can, only you can tell how long to wait for . It is very early days. She should however start making some practical steps to help the marriage recover.


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## disbelief

I think she believes she is taking steps by behaving nicer including me inher decisions involving herself in the house again normal conversation. Allowing close sitting and neck rub because she had headache.

But she will not be the one to say let's goto a new MC, or the M weekends I mentioned a few posts back. She still wont read a thing about it unless she is secretly doing it. She wants to fix by forgetting. Not gonna work for me. In 10 Days we talk MC and those weekends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I would definitely tell her that you are starting to lose your interest in her.

AND tell her what it would take from her for you to change that path.


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## 8yearscheating

Just let her know that in order for you to move forward the MC is a requirement because the two of you have had serious communication issues you can't resolve alone. That said, she must agree 100% and be willing to participate. Let her know you don't think she has committed to R and that there is a limit to how long you will remain committed to trying to R. You would greatly appreciate it if she get off the fence and commit because your heart and soul are still 100% in - for now.


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## disbelief

She's going away with her sister then rt back to work when she gets home that's where I got the ten days. So we will each have our time without each other. 
I have two pasteurs to call with MC References and soul searching. I get home and I want her as much as I ever have. My new position at my part time job is less stress I feel less depressed than I have even including long. Before d day. I had a back injury that ended a career I loved I wonder if maybe I was depressed longer than I knew I lost a career and a huge social aspect of my life and I am just beginning to realize. How it has affected me.
if I had come home tonight and d day never happened I would not have known she was behaving as same old wife and mom. But I want to build better not the same.

Magic 8 Ball says she wants save this..........LOL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

If you ended the career you loved because of injury, and became depressed, you may want to be really honest with yourself and ask if your actions contributed toward driving her away.


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## disbelief

I do consider that a contributing factor however I also fault her partially because she pointed it out last week and I said or maybe I just thought it (to stick to honesty).........well why didn't you (to wife) say something or really point it out and try to help me. Part of soul searching, it does make me realize she is/can be selfish, she seldom showed open concern for my well being after my job loss. It became all about her and her schedule. So I guess I am coming out of my own shocked fog trying to remember things as they really were. 
Maybe she will make it all the way out of her fog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely

Yeah, what affaircare do all the time here at TAM is to encourage people to expose the affair. There's a reason behind. 

That's to get more people involved and make the issue even complicated, so people can never solve the marriage issue and will always visit affaircare.com.


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## turnera

Don't listen to MsLonely. She's a wayward wife and she is doing everything she can to ensure that no one follows established, SUCCESSFUL plans for stopping affairs, including exposure.


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## michzz

MsLonely said:


> Yeah, what affaircare do all the time here at TAM is to encourage people to expose the affair. There's a reason behind.
> 
> That's to get more people involved and make the issue even complicated, so people can never solve the marriage issue and will always visit affaircare.com.


Sure, if there ever was a way to solve deception, it is by keeping it a secret----NOT!

I don't agree with a lot of what affaircare says, but I have to say this is really one of the most puzzling posts you've made MsLonely.


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## disbelief

Mslonely, I do not know your story I do know that had the confronting with evidence not taken place my W probably would have moved out and I would have 4 very very very sad children.

If evidence of A resurfaces............uggghh it wont be pretty. BBetween this forum affaircare.com MB, DB, EA journey other books I educated myself and did the best I could to save not just my relationship but my family. We are not out of the woods and have a long way to go so if you have constructi e criticism please have at it. But mslonely I am not sure how ur post fits in at this point. For me affaircare and tanelornpete as well as many others have offerred advice perspectives criticisms that had I not found this forum I would be divorced and depressed. For me and my wife to have to deal with pain but spare the kids.........I will bear the pain that's a real Dad's job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

michzz said:


> Sure, if there ever was a way to solve deception, it is by keeping it a secret----NOT!
> 
> I don't agree with a lot of what affaircare says, but I have to say this is really one of the most puzzling posts you've made MsLonely.


Seems out of context to me........Confused me as well. No matter keep by brain spinning keeps me sharp on saving my M and figuring out if this is where i wanna be. 

I meet pleasant beatiful women just about everyday I go somewhere. i still do not have the desire to abandon my marriage and family. 
Is starting over really better than fixing a M especially with kids involved. Maybe it's just me

She shows signs of not wanting to be gone. The proof is in the pudding right. Everybody can either say I told you she went deep under cover or some day i will continue under the reconcilliation stories. 

This culture, snap your fingers its done, you can get a D almost quicker than getting married. Get married in Vegas get pregnant get divorced before birth because nobody takes responsibility. Lunch time at probate 30 people in line with D papers. Goodfellas is on TV. Can we really believe affairs didn't happen then? No, nobody got caught because there wasn't an electronic trail.

There's a wax and wane of love in long term relationships isn't there? Well we are definitely waning. But I am not leaving my house and kids. She appears to want to be back here. This is not a one size fits all repair. i see baby steps.
I remain cautious.
I remain hopeful.
I have decided I will be OK I will make sure my kids are OK.
Things I need to do to save the marriage make my house better for me and my kids so either way i win.

I guess that's my rant, not even sure where it came from.


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## Powerbane

You do that disbelief! 

Stay hopeful!

You are both going to go through ups and down. It's going to take both of you time to heal. 

You're finally coming to the realization that you were in a fog too - the fog of pain and depression. It's good to start remembering these things. Now you can ask forgiveness and move on. She needs to ask forgiveness for the A. 

Stand your ground. Take counsel from others and weigh it against you own values because in the end that's all that matters. 

Best of luck and love to you both to work this through and create a new relationship that is stronger!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks Powerbane, heard it said today that to ask for help is more of a true sign of strength than not aksing for help.

The more time i give her without R talk the more she acts like my W and not the Alien that was here. Even asking for my help with things again.


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## 8yearscheating

Suggestion on the MC - someone relatively close to your age that has MC as specialty.


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## F-102

Sounds like she wants to reconcile deep down, but she may still be afraid of being "I-told-you-so"d by everyone.


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## disbelief

Good ideas 8. You may be right 102. She's away at her sisters place she is still Pleasant on the phone. Calling and txting more like she did before all this A stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Keep the faith my good man. She is coming around.


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## disbelief

I think you are right however I think she is scared of life right now. I know it takes 2 for an A but I also know the OM and have no doubt he was saying whayever to her to geg what he wanted lying included manipulating included because he always has lied well. Venting...... she's got mental torture she is having nightmares.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Just be there for her to help recover from those nightmares.

I know you will be. You've fought long and hard for what you love and believe in. I think she is starting to believe in you and in herself again. 

It's just horrible that we (men) treat people like the OM did and especially when it's family!

You're cut from some damn tough cloth disbelief. 

like 8yrs said - Keep the Faith!


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## disbelief

I will take that as a compliment . I have always been resilient, I am not fighting for one but the whole family. I don't see divorce as the fix for this its just marital suicide. A permanent fix to a temporary problem. Because parenting from 2 houses would be better...... not...... still love her somewhere inside still mad about it yeah ........do I think OM manipulated .......yeah.......he was getting both sides of the story mine and hers. I am willing to fix my M but not that friendship.

More venting
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Focus on you and her and the future. You are moving into a new phase - you are beggining to reconcile even if he hasn't vocalized it yet. The hardest thing at this phase is not let your pain and anger EVER take over when you are with her or talking to her. FOr you AND her, focus on the future and the relationship you want. DON'T focus on the affair and the deceipt. There will be plenty of time later to address that issue in small steps. For now focus on the relationship and rebuilding what you have for each other. DOn't become an angry victim centered person like many on this site have. Find that MC and if she isn't real religous, find someone who won't be focusing on the teachings of the church. Check around - do you have an IC or does someone you know have a real good one? They are good resources for an MC. She needs an IC and both of you need the MC.


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## disbelief

I am getting referencec from two chaplains. She grew up with church every sunday but she isn't very into it now however I also think some of it is coming back to her through the "guilt and sin" stuff coming home from kids ccd trying to find a happy medium.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Good question she may be coming to that realization. She has said I deserve better?

your not suggesting I show or tell her about this thread though right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

I would not show her this at this stage! Maybe when you're fully recovered. I think at point after recovery - she will understand just how much you loved her and still love her. She will also come to a realization that you have lots of un-named friends that were there for you to listen and provide that shred of hope and encouragement. 

She is right in one respect though - you do deserve better - a better *her* and *she* knows that. I think that is what she is trying to say.

And yes - my prior post was a compliment to you! :smthumbup:


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## disbelief

And I appreciate all of it !!! Baby step: she wanted to stay on the phone when I asked her if she wanted me to let her go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Why did you ask her that? Aren't you still telling her you want to work through this and reconcile? Why would you even give her that option at this point? What were you trying to accomplish?


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## Conrad

turnera said:


> My thought, and something I've found hard, but VERY powerful:
> 
> Make one promise, to yourself and to her:
> 
> From this day forward, SPEAK ONLY THE TRUTH.
> 
> If your truth harms her, if it pushes her away, if it gives her a reason to blame you and leave you...
> 
> then she doesn't really love you, never did, and what you had was a sham.
> 
> YOUR TRUTH is who you are. If it doesn't fit her, it wasn't a real marriage.
> 
> And what marriage could you possibly have if you can't be yourself, and be totally honest?


That's a fantastic point.

When you are totally honest - with nothing to hide - and you get rejected?

Then you know what you need to know.

There's no room for "you" in your relationship.

So, you have 2 choices.

You either compromise your principles to "keep the peace"

Or you get the **** out.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Why did you ask her that? Aren't you still telling her you want to work through this and reconcile? Why would you even give her that option at this point? What were you trying to accomplish?


Are you referring to the let her go? I just meant get off the phone for the night she's at her sisters place. Sorry if I was confusing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well surprise she actually texted. " morning" and called a bit later to check on kids. That's the pre A norm. For when one of us is away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well i just heard the pro flowers commercial so I have to throw it out it out there should I do the mixed roses i mean its really affordable.................or just a gift from the kids.................Or the you have sinned i have not fully forgiven yet card. (vent)

Could add charms to her bracelet...............


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## turnera

Take the high road. And be honest. If you still love her, say so. But don't bend over backwards in terms of gifts.


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## Powerbane

Nice mixed roses bunch from you and kids is nice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Show her your love. If she likes flowers go for it. For extra points send them to her work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Took the high road mixed roses not at work she doesn't like that attention. Card from all of us. 

She is behaving very differently since she has been away either putting on a good show or actually happy to talk to me. Even said yes to making plans to do something together I have wanted to do for a long time had asked her it was always no and now suddenly she wants to do it and with me. Lets see what happens when she gets home.


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## disbelief

Well I thought i would seek some feedback on the W's behavior. Last trip away (about 3 months ago) she was definitley in contact with OM and we had not really confronted she was distant didn't call. Conversations less than 5 minutes. Didn't want to talk showed no concern for me. It has beeen 44 days since confronting her and OMW confronting OM.

This trip, She has made all initial contact, sent pictures of what she has seen. Conversations of 15-20 minutes. She has been in a good mood not defensive we have been able to joke talk about some future things to do. She has actually asked several times if I was OK in different phone calls due to my tone or a statement. She called specifically to ask that after one call. 
So for those of you with more experience is this breaking out of the fog?

I know there is still a long road, boundaries, transparency, lots of things on my list to truly recover. So Any input is always welcome thanks.


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## disbelief

Just spoke with W on her drivd home she is stressing I am going to go off about the A when she gets home she is just waiting for some major outburst. I re assured her I was not don't think she believes it. She seems concerned again I guess that's a good sign?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Yes it is. I would make it a point to give her a big hug when gets home the hold her gaze and say. "understand me clearly......I do not want to beat you up or harass you about the A. I do have questions but we can discuss how you would like to handle them. One per day with a max of 1/2 hour discussion. But never attacking or with anger. "
Tell her you understand anger and attacks will only drive her away and you realize she is probably already punishing herself too much. You love her very much and only need to hear voice her regret at the horrible pain she has caused you and a commitment to understand how she could let it happen so you can be sure she understands how to insure it never happens again. Until she is ready to do that with all her heart.....she is not ready to reconcile. Your hanging on but can't wait forever. Your already starting to get weak hanging. 

It really is time she step up and commit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Yeah she should step up. Gonna bring up counciling again. Read something about couple not being at the reconciliation point at the same time. She's not.....either scared....or so messed up. She backed away from a hug then accepted but cried. Wants to move where there are no people. Our love for our kids is what is keeping this together. Oh I do still love her she can't or wont say how she feels. She pretty much just doesn't like it when I touch her. She says she only likes hus from the kids....I feel like handing her my ring and saying let me know when I shoukd wear it again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

She may still be trying to resolve her feelings with the new situation, and I hope this doesn't sound too premature, but it sounds like she is on her way home!


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## disbelief

Maybe she wanted to stay on her vacation I will hold on I set a 6 month time frame and I will keep that goal. We're not like the war of the roses so.................she was just happier on her vaca ehhh who isn't I suppose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Do you remember when I told you that one HUGE thing that a loyal can begin to repair the damage done to both in the marriage is do a few "fun" things with each other and "be her friend"? 

One of the larger issues YOU will have to overcome, disbelief, was just shown to you today. In her mind she associates "good" and "relief" with being away from you, and she associates "bad" and "arguing about affair stuff" and "pressure" with you. This is NOT the message you want to reinforce! This is why...WAY BACK when...I suggested to you then to take a small vacation, take a three-day weekend, something..and just do something FUN. The idea is to remind her that you are not only the "Let's have a relationship talk" guy but also the "I am someone you can have fun with...remember?" guy and "I am your friend" guy. 

So she pretty clearly demonstrated that right now she views time with you as pressure, tension and distress. What would turn that around faster than saying, "Honey I know you just got back from vacation but I'm taking the day off work and remember that amusement park you've always said you wished we could go to? Well I have tickets for the whole day!" Then don't push her to try every ride or get through the whole place--go at HER pace. If she wants to stop for a while and sit in the shade at the amusement park, do it. Win her a prize as if you were her boyfriend. Just let your hair down and have some FUN! 

Now I could see how you might say "How is this in line with allowing her to experience the cost of her choices?" The idea is to simultaneously demonstrate to her two things: a) if you commit I can be the guy you have fun with and the guy who cares about you and is your friend; and b) if you do not commit, I won't let you avoid the consequences of your choice and the cost will be high and it will hurt you." Kind of like training a dog, you do positive reinforcement when they obey and negative reinforcement when they do the behavior you don't want. Similar concept only of course your wife is a human and your equal...not a dog!


----------



## 8yearscheating

Keep your cool. She is still of the belief she is not worthy of you and of the belief you could never get over the A and that her life will be living hell of repeating anger from you forever more. She needs to understand you want a better relationship than you had before. Not the same old issues and promises. A new start, a chance to put the past behind. It will take time but she us afraid it (the A) will never be out of your mind. She just needs to understand that it will take time, but it won't be torture. Give her confidence it CAN work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Make some time for alone time. Fun time or just alone time with just the 2 of you. You need time to reconnect at so many levels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Affaircare said:


> Do you remember when I told you that one HUGE thing that a loyal can begin to repair the damage done to both in the marriage is do a few "fun" things with each other and "be her friend"?


I remember and I did outright ask her that day.Not for the weekend but just an evening out because she was working the weekend. I got a big old no. So that evolved into havinf good fun friend talk while buying her truck and so on. I think no matter how much time passes she is waiting for me to blow my top. I did that once back in IDK October? 
I was nice, pleasant all week and she swears i have an alterior motive behind it I said yup it was just to be nice. I clearly see the issue now because over the phone all week all was well.




Affaircare said:


> So she pretty clearly demonstrated that right now she views time with you as pressure, tension and distress. What would turn that around faster than saying, "Honey I know you just got back from vacation but I'm taking the day off work and remember that amusement park you've always said you wished we could go to?


 She has expressed a new interest that she really wants to go do so I am going to make that happen and it is one she said she will go do with me oddly enough I asked her to do this same thing about a year ago and she had no interest.





Affaircare said:


> Now I could see how you might say "How is this in line with allowing her to experience the cost of her choices?" The idea is to simultaneously demonstrate to her two things: a) if you commit I can be the guy you have fun with and the guy who cares about you and is your friend; and b) if you do not commit, I won't let you avoid the consequences of your choice and the cost will be high and it will hurt you." !


Just to clarify in my thick falling asleep head, Do you mean make the statements above A and B to her? 

Thanks Again


----------



## disbelief

Thanks everyone for the encouragement. Just mentioned a weekend and got that she is not ready for that.
she got upsert about money called and went off wit the I know I screwed everything up its all my fault ..................and I had said hello?!?!?!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I wouldn't start as big as a weekend. Just ask her to go to the local afternoon art festival or something. Something that doesn't require a big commitment.


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## disbelief

That's what I offerred the first time gonna try again on a mutual day off this week. The first weekend thing I would like to do is retrouaville soonest nearby is april.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> That's what I offerred the first time gonna try again on a mutual day off this week. The first weekend thing I would like to do is retrouaville soonest nearby is april.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Go have fun on a day or even half day. Make little mini dates without the kids too even to do mundane thi fs like grocery shopping. My wife and I will make short runs to Walgreens a few nights a week or just to get coffee together. 

Point is - it doesn't have to be big. 

I think she's still worried that you will go nuclear on her - reassure her that that option will not happen but you as the betrayed spouse do need some detail for closure. 

The detail you're probably looking for is nothing of the sordid variety - like how was he in the sack but rather what did OM do for you that was so attractive.

I asked my wife recently what are 3 things I could do for her to improve our communication and feeling of love to her. 

Found out that her language is that of acts of service - 22 yrs knowing her and I had no idea. All she wanted was more things done around the house!! Go figure!!

Good luck as always!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks now if everyone would just speak straight foward to each other we wouldn't be here............flowers were delivered got a thankyou txt. I have a day off plan with 3 options so she can choose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I still think you're thinking too big. 

Just ask her to walk around the track at the local high school, for exercise. Or take the dog for a walk. Or go see a movie.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> I still think you're thinking too big.
> 
> Just ask her to walk around the track at the local high school, for exercise. Or take the dog for a walk. Or go see a movie.


Retrouaville is too big ? in 2 Months if all is still progressing?

The 3 things were options, foiled by a kid thing she had not mentioned.


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## turnera

Yes! She doesn't feel safe with you!

You need to start proving to her that she can handle a couple hours with you without you starting to make her feel bad!

Go to a movie. Talk about local traffic problems. Or the library that just closed. Or the fire that just occurred.

Pretend you are newly dating. What would you be talking about?

Ask her out for 2 hours and talk like THAT.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Yes! She doesn't feel safe with you!
> 
> You need to start proving to her that she can handle a couple hours with you without you starting to make her feel bad!.


Thats the way I/we behaved a couple weeks ago when we were out several times together, shopping, errands, her new vehicle. Several hours at a time that were good. She was away on her vacation, phone calls were good. She came home and she was just grououououchy. 
She was better at first this evening but got upset just before she left. She basically insulted me for being a good dad, I defended myself on that. So a 180 for me in response to her going on I just continued about my business instead of seeing her off to work as I usually would. And unfortunately this was the first time in ages she walked closer to me to say goodbye.



So I get:


turnera said:


> Go to a movie. Talk about local traffic problems. Or the library that just closed. Or the fire that just occurred.
> 
> Pretend you are newly dating. What would you be talking about?
> 
> Ask her out for 2 hours and talk like THAT.


Just hate this two steps foward three steps back. Her response the other day on a new MC was whatever. I found a pro marriage one locally, couple good referrals.


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## Powerbane

Good on finding a good counselor. Make the appointment. Get the sitter all lined up and tell her about it. If she refuses to go then tell her you're going anyway. 

Sounds like your wife is stubborn just like mine is. .....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Powerbane said:


> Good on finding a good counselor. Make the appointment. Get the sitter all lined up and tell her about it. If she refuses to go then tell her you're going anyway.
> 
> Sounds like your wife is stubborn just like mine is. .....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gonna make the calls i need to tomorrow. This councillor sounds reaosonable recomended by a pastor and someone from the church seeing him. He said no cookie cutter plans I told him about our "divorce councillor" oh I mean last marriage councilor he said no no divorce is last resort. And he knew about Retrouaville nobody else has. 

More time waiting for us both to be on that line of reconciliation at the same time. Well i am there just don't know what her head is really doing.


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## F-102

Give her time, keep doing what you have been doing. She may still be afraid that you are going to welcome her with open arms, forgive and forget, only to yank the rug out of under her the next time you have an argument. Believe me, I have seen my parents have an argument, and then bring up things that were dead and buried 5 years ago. Perhaps she saw her parents do this, and thinks you may do it too. On that note, what happens when you do have a fight somewhere down the line, say, a few years from now. She is afraid you may say something like: "Well, I'm not the one who cheated and lied...", and I suspect that part of you is afraid she will say something like: "I knew I should have left you when I had the chance...".

P.S. What is this Retroauville?


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## disbelief

Retroaville.org a weekend thing led by couples who saved their Marriages not just from infidelity its not enrichment it is my understanding it is geared more to someone in my situation who is basically seperated.
she prob wont go.
I know she fears me bringing it up but gee we have to resolve some things too. Like why r u late coming home from work? Trigger! Need more coffee!!!
you have valid points. Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So she started a conversation rehashing M problems. I remained calm. It was drawn out. I asked so what do you want what do u want to do. Her standard response what I want doesn't matter. Apparently whenever she agreed with me all these years she was just giving in I thought she actually agreed. My bad for believing the english language as spoken.
I stated it would be nice to know what side of the fence she is on saying that I don't really know if she wants to fix this or if she is still in contact with OM. She did not answer either.
She doesn't want to goto a new MC because she doesn't want to re hash past again. But she said go ahead make the. Appointment I will sit there. Feels like a. Lost cause at this point. She went off on the fine let's sell the house and split everything because I have talked about splitting the bills. She made reference to how it was 7 years. Ago. I could go on but I will spare everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

If she's not seeing OM, you have a decent chance to get her re-engaged. The best way I know of is doing the LB and EN questionnaires from marriagebuilders.com so you know HOW to attract her and how to not make her unhappy. Taking her out here and there is part of the meeting the ENs, but there's a lot more to it.

And, no, it does NOT go smoothly OR quickly. We're talking 6-12 months of dedicating yourself to improving yourself and thus your marriage.

That said, if she's getting needs met elsewhere, by OM or even a best friend, you're spinning your wheels. She WILL continue to backtrack and wake up and despise you sometimes. Because there's someone else out there who is 'better' for her.


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## turnera

Is she supposed to be in NC with OM? 

Are you verifying it?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Is she supposed to be in NC with OM?
> 
> Are you verifying it?


She is suppossed to be. I verify as well as I can. Phone bill shows nothing but I cannot verify DATA and that is where she uses her email. She says she trusts no one right now including me. So she will not do transparency yet. I think pushing a NC letter would actually reopen a can of worms between them. 
OMW has transparency. She can access his email and has seen nothing. I have not told OMW certain things to see if they are found out by OMW from OM. That has not happened. OM believes my W still has old vehicle. She has been on time and letting me know where she is going. 15 min late this AM but thats within normal limits of leaving a few late and traffic.

Despite the disagreement on snooping, I have not found any evidence there. She could use work email or landline at vacation spot. But her behavior when she was in contact was very distant and defensive. So unless she has becom grammy award winner.???  

No cell software. After an incident of broken NC in her sleep about a month ago with ambien involved. She dumped those and another pain script she had. She has turned off all the alerts for text messaging and emails on her phone. So it works as a phone unless she checks it. She was very in contact with me while on vacation. Kept it light and fun.

This morning was also post night shift and she hardly slept before going in. 

So a plan sorry but snoop... And councilor.....and Agree on a budget because that is most of the argument.


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## baldmale

I don't know how you keep from going completely nuts without transparency; I wouldn't trust that contact ended without transparency. And with that lingering doubt....ugh.

On a lighter note, she would actually be receiving an _Oscar_ for her new found acting skills; _Grammys_ are for singing, I believe. 

Hang in there and continue to monitor, closely.


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## disbelief

baldmale said:


> I don't know how you keep from going completely nuts without transparency; I wouldn't trust that contact ended without transparency. And with that lingering doubt....ugh.
> 
> On a lighter note, she would actually be receiving an _Oscar_ for her new found acting skills; _Grammys_ are for singing, I believe.
> 
> Hang in there and continue to monitor, closely.


Thanks, I know she wants to be here for the kids. But she is sooooo guarded. She keeps saying she doesnt want to hurt or be hurt. The kids is how I hang in. And some gut feeling every now and then hope it's not fooling me.


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## disbelief

And tonight via txt msg she is defensive and at one point I get this: "I know ur trying to b nice. I'm the one who is the horrible monster. Told u its not ur fault. I'm reading into everything and don't trust or believe anyone"

I guess that is guilt?! Or what is that?!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

It is guilt.

Keep the same message as before. You love her and don't think she is a monster. Yes she did cause this but she is not un-lovable or not capable of being forgiven. 

Then again - may she does want you to go all [email protected]?? Just to get it all out of your system?


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## disbelief

I yelled once a couple months ago don't even feel the need to (at the moment, this morning yeah I could have but I didn't). I am a low key laid back guy . I txtd back to her that I never called her a monster and that its called being human.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I guess for my terribly long thread this is a good news post? A bayby step she got up for third shift and actually found me in the house to say hi before getting ready for work. Hmmm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Suggestion Disbelief - If the cell phone account is accessible online, you can usually see all of the data quantities and usually the text phone numbers in and out. No you can't see e-mail or face book posts - email is data, facebook shows up as an odd number in text. If she has an Iphone, contact me via PM and I can tell you how you read deleted texts! I can also tell you how you can get into it if she has the account locked - PM me.


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## 8yearscheating

Still sounds like she is moving in the right direction


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Still sounds like she is moving in the right direction


Thanks she has one of the droids. I own the account no txting no cell calls to om. OMW has found nothing. Snooped = nothing found data usage is way down. She could still be emailing supposedly om setup his email to dump hers. Numbers blocked. She does have an ipod she could wifi email on. She very often leaves her phone in her bag now also. 
so unless she has chosen an alternative contact method she is not contacting.

Her behavior and mannerisms all suggest NC however still no direct answer to any question about or relating to no divorce or recommitment she clams up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

If you can get access to the phone, there is software you can install that will give: GPS location, copies of all incoming and outgoing text and emails to another email address. If you go high end, you can also listen in on calls.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Hey, I work for a cell phone company, there are a lot of third party applications for Android phones that won't show up anywhere on your bill for your provider.

Google Talk for the Androids comes to mind, you need to see her Gmail account.


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## disbelief

Thanks both I am aware of those she needs to be transparent voluntarily as well I don't have access to the phone at this time. I am cautious putting more on her behavior rt now. Time will tell on the rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Do they have matching apps for blackberry because that's what om has?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Yep


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## MisguidedMiscreant

disbelief said:


> Do they have matching apps for blackberry because that's what om has?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I don't wanna add any other pressure but these phones do so much that your online account for your cell isn't going to cut it. You need to see everything she's into firsthand, everything thing from email, social networking, to any forums she may frequent. Those things and these phones nowadays are just easier ways for things like this to go down and, take it from me, they're making it easier everyday. Check out sites like NGadget and other technology sites that deal with phones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Yeah pretty much boils down to if they wanna be in contact they will. No matter what. So until she does transparency.............and even then .........one could still have a 200th email account so it seems pointless at some point to snoop. My W has to figure what she really wants and commit so she keeps opening a little at a time. I can't force trancparency because then its not genuine. I have been her rock and there even when she hurt me most so if she doesn't figure it out the we all reap what we sow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

At the same time it has to mean something that she is talking to me about stuff good bad indifferent work etc. She still has txtx and email alerts off. We are more calling than txt now. She does not get upset when I call to let her know something about house kids etc. She bought me a coffee this AM that hasn't been offerred or done since?? SHE got upset because I sounded bothered at her call. She gets upset over th D support meeting. 

So....................................back to time will tell.

Edit don't worry don’t trust her yet, prob next to never.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Your right, you can plug one hole and all it takes is a prepaid phone from any box store, more e-mail accounts youd on't know about...whatever. You can NEVER stop it. All you can do is hope there is a mistake made.


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## disbelief

She appears to be in true emotional pain so if she wants to do that to herself? ????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You can't learn and grow if you don't face the pain.


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## disbelief

Well I hope she is growing from this it was long before dday I felt she was acting like a teen at least I know why now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

That is a question to be asked in front of an MC
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Soon to be scheduled with new pro marriage instead of that divorce councillor we had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

:smthumbup: Excellent on the PRO-Marriage!!!!


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## F-102

She is still feeling very guilty about the whole thing and thinking that you were so patient with her, how on earth could she possibly deserve you?
That is what sends women away from good guys and into the arms of men who treat them like trash.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> She is still feeling very guilty about the whole thing and thinking that you were so patient with her, how on earth could she possibly deserve you?
> That is what sends women away from good guys and into the arms of men who treat them like trash.


I guess I will stay patient then I keep seeing the baby steps. Thanks


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## 8yearscheating

Keep in mind what I said about postive compliments. They go a LONG way. Also, if you voice any doubts, her radar goes up that says your not really into into R. I saw your comments on the Forgiveness thread. Personally, I made it a special point to my wife that I was commited to moving forward and forgiving her so we could start to build trust. As we discussed, that included the caveat that there much work to do and it didn't mean we could forget - only forgive


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Keep in mind what I said about postive compliments. They go a LONG way. Also, if you voice any doubts, her radar goes up that says your not really into into R. I saw your comments on the Forgiveness thread. Personally, I made it a special point to my wife that I was commited to moving forward and forgiving her so we could start to build trust. As we discussed, that included the caveat that there much work to do and it didn't mean we could forget - only forgive


Good reminder thanks. I throw out compliments, it throws her off. I keep being nice not to manipulate but I still like being nice to her. Our biggest arguments lately have been over budget. My IC and I came upon an interesting point of trying to clear up if she actually wants me to tell her what to do despite her in the fog complaints I was controlling. Thats a whole other subject. I have told her many times I can forgive one time I even said maybe i have already and I don't know it the other day I said no more secrets. So she is less guarded a tiny bit at a time. My goal....save family unit repair our hearts and marriage.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Specifically tell her you are safe haven. You do forgive and welcome her back with open arms, You WON'T torture her about the affair and that the two of you will work together to find ways to work through it keeping firmly in mind that she will voice her feelings and reactions and the two of you will formulate a plan based on BOTH of your needs - not just yours. She is still holding back confused if it is even possible and afraid it will be hell and torture for her. She expects it to be because of her guilt. Letting her have some confidence about it not being that will edge her closer to trying. Don't discount her efforts as just for the kids. She is starting to fill her love bank for you becuase of the hard work you have been doing. Steady as she goes - maintain the course.

AS ALWAYS - KEEP THE FAITH!


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## turnera

Make sure the compliments are deserved. Not just 'you're pretty' - that's fluff and we know it. Look for more like 'I really like the way you handled the issue with the teacher today.'


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> Make sure the compliments are deserved. Not just 'you're pretty' - that's fluff and we know it. Look for more like 'I really like the way you handled the issue with the teacher today.'


Good point, those opportunities don't arise often. But when i notice something I do compliment. And well I guess i fluff because if she looks good I will tell her I would rather she hear it from me first. Yup even after this mess I still find my wife attractive. It would be easier if we could just plug in the laptop and reprogram ourselves.


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## turnera

That's fine, too. Just remember that (most) women want to be recognized for having a brain, too, and not just looks. We work on our looks at first cos that's what gets a guy, but we want to be seen as an equal, not just arm candy.


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> That's fine, too. Just remember that (most) women want to be recognized for having a brain, too, and not just looks. We work on our looks at first cos that's what gets a guy, but we want to be seen as an equal, not just arm candy.


Thanks a good reminder as well, I have done lots of reading and realize that one of her complaints boils down to me offering to many solutions and not just listening.......
More baby steps?.......She said last night she just doesn't want to go back (reffering to the A and discussing it)

I told her I made us an MC appointment she rolled her eyes but said OK without much tone and 0 argument she last said she would go and sit there.

She is a bit more receptive to hugs but she cries every time??? Don't know if that is guilt or remorse or what??

She said sometimes she gets that I really want to fix this, this must be the why would he want to thing. 

She said she feels stressed at home, told her that was not my intention.

No signs of contact. 

Long long long road ahead..........

Topping it off my parents just peaked in their marital stress as they approach 70 the worse it has ever been they might even D at this point. Years of doing it wrong.


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## Powerbane

Have you asked why she cries when you hug her? Gently of course. 

Funny - my wife says the same about me - I offer too many solutions and sometimes I need to just let it go with the flow. 

Sometimes I just stay quiet or send an email or just write my thoughts into a journal. She digests and acts on stuff more slowly than I do and takes time to make decisions whereas I can make that snap decision. 

Still think you are on track. Take care disbelief - now I have 100 feet of vinyl fence to put in!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks feels like we r on track. I have asked why she shakes her head. Vinyl fence you must not have snow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> Thanks feels like we r on track. I have asked why she shakes her head. Vinyl fence you must not have snow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope no snow in sunny beautiful Florida! It's 77 with low humidity!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

I just realized something there was a moment yesterday when my W was a normal pre A mad strange to look at that as a posotive ....................it was a legit isssue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Most women need to talk and talk and talk. If you step in with a solution, there's no reason for her to keep on talking. Just listen.


----------



## disbelief

Yeah should have read mars and venus10 years ago. Of course my w could put some effort in there also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

I am confused by W's behavior. She got upset teary when I said she could take the kids on her own a couple days this week and I would pick up some hours at part time job. So I try to determine what she wants me not to do that all of us to be together, that this is OK. She answers nothing. Then she comes out with a well you never know who is there you need to socialize with. Now a couple weeks before D Day a very attractive lady expressed interest in me no advances by either of us but my former friend, the OM knows of this. So I assume my W knows of this. 
I am wondering if my W expects me to have a revenge A she has hinted at the subject.
How's this work in the DS's head.


----------



## turnera

She wants what SHE wants - stuff for HER to feel good - but she also wants to know you're hanging on her every word, waiting for her, stroking her ego.

If you ever want her back, show her you love her and would welcome her back BUT you respect yourself too much to just sit at home and wait for her.

In other words, force her hand.


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> In other words, force her hand.


On answering questions? Finally speaking what she wants? I can see her intention is to stay but how do you force someone to talk. Vacation week supposed to have lots of family time hoping for good things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Coffee, reading, and thinking everyone says this is a long process. In 2 weeks we see a new MC, pro marriage. At this point 2 weeks is not going to change much, so am I off base to continue strong plan A making her feel safe and secure again (well gee because she always was with me) and hope when we get to MC who has been doing this for years he can make the R work go better go somewhere????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Remind me: did you print out the LB questionnaire and ask her to fill it out?


----------



## disbelief

I have not. Was trying to time it in the middle of several of her days off guess that would be this week. I found them confusing, and affaircaires a bit different than MB. Which is best.

Start with love busters right?

Turnera what exactly were you referring to when u said force her hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I meant to stop living in limbo. Decide what you can live with, what kind of relationship you'll stay in (and what kind you won't), and then start living by that set of decisions. Also let HER know what your decisions are. Such as 'I've decided I can't stay in a marriage where my wife won't __________ (go to counseling, wash dishes, fill in the blank). I'm not tellling you that you have to ______________, but I just can't stay in a marriage if it's not something you're willing to do. So just know that, if that's your choice, I will be making plans to leave the marriage.'


----------



## disbelief

Gotcha!! We definitly need the mc and it is scheduled. I truly believe she does not believe I am willing to take her back she occaisionally tests it with a question. She did today. She just will not speak about r stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Just a perspective,
Its like you need affirmation that she is not with OM and she wants you, just like she needs affirmation from you that you have forgiven and want her.

I'm sorry she can't talk about R thats the best part, you know making things better and learning from each other all over again. 

I wish I had some great advise to give but your wife just.....IDK


----------



## disbelief

I need a can opener so she will talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

There ya go!


----------



## disbelief

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## disbelief

The can opener didn't work! Well i pushed a little bit tonight back to a bit of the dance however picture a Western and she is dodging bullets.

I showed her info on a webinar for saving the marriage. She says i am not interested. I said in saving the marriage? Sigh moan, " to listen right now" So you are interested in saving the marriage?" ...................................No response.

This is typical for any question close to direct about the subject. I rephrased a couple of times, still no response. I expressed my dedication, commitment, love, the fact that i have been the rock through this, and more. All said calm and collected.

She expressed she is having "dellusional thoughts" about me??? I am convinced someone told her I had an A because she has a thought she doesn't want the answer to. I have been faithful in my marriage. 
I expressed how my Love for her will remain she said it may go away (oops reflex response) I confidently said "you might want to keep that in the back of your mind"

Be nice if she would get off her fence and speak some of whats on her mind.


----------



## Powerbane

Would giving her some of the same treatment work? Like not talking about anything unless it's kids or life and death? I don't know - this is a hard one to crack.

Have you asked her if there is one thing that you could change about yourself - what would it be? Does she still hold onto some resentment or some hate somewhere?

Maybe Affaircare can help decipher this one.


----------



## disbelief

She is plenty happy right now to go on as if nothing happened and just discuss the day to day, kids, life, death, bills. things that need to be planned on the calendar.

Have not asked her that. She has given the list of marital complaints. Same things she complained about but sorry alot of it is rewritten history, stuff when she was happy 14 -20 months ago she was ok with. 

She resents alot of things right now, some i swear go back to childhood all the way up till now. 

I think OM was telling her I was having Affair. Truly think he started really playing her. When she began EA him my "friend" was the one I talked to about M problems so a*****e had both sides of the coin no wonder he could meet her needs. He started saying why don't you hook up with that waitress etc...( sorry vent)

She plain and simple doesn't want to talk. If something physically hurts her she denies it. She could fall doen in pain and would say I'm ok nothing hurts it's fine.
This is what she is doing with her emotions. Just slam them down, lay another coarse of brick to that wall. I said to her tonight it is affecting her with the kids, she got upset (oh well) she is not being affectionate with them she mostly hides in one room when she is home.
Less than 2 weeks until new MC.

Only 30 or so more days til the D papers she filed expire. Total time was 90 day. The word doesn't come up. Unless i say I am going to my Divorce Cares class/meeting.


----------



## turnera

I don't understand what your plan is. You keep SAYING 'she'll get hers' or 'she'll understand' but in reality, all I see if you continuallly kissing up to her.


----------



## disbelief

I am going to give this new MC. A shot. Hopefully we make some progress there. I am treating her as a friend. Kissing up, no if anything I have become less of that and more hardlined. To the point with things I am not 2 stepping this one but shes just not talking.................wheres my handy mind reader.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

You know, someone telling your spouse that you were running around to get in between you two is a possibility that I don't think a lot of people in this scenario consider. The trouble with this is that it's difficult to prove that you haven't cheated because, unless she literally catches you with your pants down, it's all circumstancial. Ask her if she was ever given concrete times and places for your "discretions." That would be the first step is disproving her thoughts if you can account for your whereabouts at those times. 

Also, I came in halfway and didn't know that the OM was your friend at the time. I don't know how you haven't beaten his a$$ yet.


----------



## disbelief

Because quite simply he is no longer worth it my not doing so is a greater punishment to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisguidedMiscreant

disbelief said:


> Because quite simply he is no longer worth it my not doing so is a greater punishment to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your right and that's how I usually live my life when I'm wronged but I don't know about this case and now, that really colors my views on what she did in a much darker light. You are a saint.

If you can, find out what he may or may not have told her because that seems to be the root cause of why she doesn't want to open up. She just may be thinking that you're even and there's nothing else to talk.

If that's not the case and she's just shutting down, think about if you're ready to accept the certainty that your marriage is over, if you can face that, what I would do is try to set up a time where it'll just be the two of you at home and lock yourselves in the house until you talk about it. Don't waiver, don't buckle, don't cave, you're going to talk about this or that's it. Sometimes baby steps aren't the best way, sometimes it's now or never. Let her know that because of what's happened, with no blame, that your marriage has reached the all or nothing phase for the forseeable future.


----------



## disbelief

We seem to be continuing baby steps so I will hold out for the MC. In time if she is in contact that truth will be revealed if not then we may be able to rebuild. She is isolating herself. She is detatched that is hard. To think she doubted my love is hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## blownaway

I've been reading your posts for weeks and just feel really bad for what you are going through. You are trying so hard to try to save this relationship and all she throws at your are crumbs. She feels you should be content with just talking about day to day and ignoring the pink elephant sitting in the room. That is not a true relationship. The detachment, which is what my H did too before he left, is awful. On some level, it makes you feel like you don't even belong in your own home. It makes you feel as if they would be happy if you just disappeared off the face of the Earth. I understand wanting to give the new MC a shot, but if your W doesn't start doing something, anything, to show that she is willing to fight for the relationship, I don't see how MC is going to help. Somewhere you have to meet in the middle. I understand not wanting to push and taking the baby steps, but she still has all the control. You are worth more than chasing after an emotionally detached woman who has turned her heart away. I know that your timeline is June. Please stick to that. This can't go on for much longer or else she will steal everything you have.


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## disbelief

As time marches on it is a strange thing. I read somewhere that it takes a good 90. Days to really start the fog clearing. A large portion of my drive is powered by my children. I keep pushing in a more alpha way. Last night I said something that definitly would have made her doubt my commitment to our future she withdrew. Tonight I did the opposite and the opposite result although very small result. 
It is all completly backwards. But what it boils down to...........no high horse just fact, I am typically the stronger personality. Self confident etc............she is not. So she is talking future but will not actually address things. Yup its all unfair when I reach my limit I will deal.

I said it when d day hit I would do everything in my power to save this m so I can look in the mirror and know I gavgave more than 100% effort. If not for me for my kids. Nobodys perfect and when I waiver I ask myself what I would want her to do if roles were reversed.

I am not being a doormat.

Honestly I truly believe she is suffering more than I am as I have said before. I have sought help for my emotional distress she is bottling it all, I think it is going to get worse before it gets better. I may need a course in tough love here.

Thank you for the post keep them coming it helps me get these thoughts out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Posted this over on remorse thread too.

The scenario. Conversation, I push on anything R related it causes crying.
She states over and over she has/is asking for nothing.
She says I can leave her alone?
She still wants to bottle it all up.

She sits on the couch curled up crying, cringes when I mention divorce or any reference to marriage ending.

so is it Self Pity, Depression, Withdrawal, or remorse?


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## 8yearscheating

When you go to the MC, try to let her tell the story and lead where she wants it to go. If she doesn't, stop frequently and ask her to add her feelings or comments wile you do. Make sure the session closes with what you would like to see happen from sessions. I don't hink you will break through until the MC is there as mediator and someone to draw her out. I wouldn't continue to push until the MC has met with both of you at least two or three times. It probably won't be one session that starts to open up the discussion.


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## turnera

I agree. No point talking R to her when it doesn't work. Save it for MC. And if she won't go to MC, make plans to separate.


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## disbelief

Well due to my wifes behavior today I lokked at the phone record. Data shows email sized data all night. I cannot confirm she was emailing the other man but that is the most logical conclusion. Her behavior if I take from a clinical standpoint is of a depressed somewhat desperate person. Do I continue this battle for my marriage. Do I let this frustration of hers settle we had a pretty heated relationship discussion last night. Do I confront her saying I am pretty sure she has been in contact?
Do I blind side her with a letter and my feelings and completed divorce papers for her to sign?
it is 5 months since d day. Almost 2 since confronting about emails.
maybe we do need a seperation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Go with your gut. Either transparency or out. 

You've been patient thru all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Bring it up with the MC that you believe she is still contacting him and that to be home, together and trying to you means no contact and complete transparency. Don't argue it now


----------



## turnera

Just walk up to her when she's not expecting it and ask to see her phone. If she balks, start packing her stuff.


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## disbelief

Well she could hand it to me but it would be locked. I can ask if she's ready for transparency or tolerate for a week an ahalf and watch til MC what's that much longer. . ....................she is such a mess its ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I supposse it is possible 3g was updating a web page but my data has never done that.

She just lost it because I asked for transparency again.

OM Wife just confirmed OM was not online, he was asleep she was awake, for at least half of the time of the data usage.

What to do,
I would still like to save this.


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## 8yearscheating

Don't assume too much. She may have been venting to someone. If it showed up as data and not as text it was a website. I know it's getting hard not to see more movement. It will take a couple of sessions minimum before she opens up if she's going to. Time runs especially slow for you right now as I'm sure you just want some real progress one way or the other. Sounds to me like she's still grieving. Hold on and wait to see what happens with the MC. Hopefully his mediating skills will give her safe harbor to open up and start taking a chance as I'm sure he will suggest to her. Remember my first MC session was all about D and seperation. My changing and staying with it caused her to turn back to me. Yes we are still having issues. But we ate still working toward the future. 
Be tenacious. Keep the faith and hold on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I don't know what the data activity was but she has been off since that day. Could be timing, of the month that is, I tell you she has been out there. But it also appears as though she at least went into a couple of my books when she couldn't sleep. That could be good. Quiet rolling onto crying then to angry. She was back on everything negative about our marriage. She remembers this way i remember that way. So back to time will tell. MC in a week.


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## 8yearscheating

How are doing? Things are better on this end. Isn't your appt. approaching?


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> How are doing? Things are better on this end. Isn't your appt. approaching?


Good to hear things are better on your end. Hope it continues down the improvement path.

Over here mostly the same. Pretty much limbo, she is a roller coaster. She went off on several things the other night like the alien slipped back in, evil wife arrived and roared that I would not take her children from her??????????????? I have never threatened that. Manifestation of a fear??

She cries if i hug her, she pulls away at every touch. She does not want to see my family at all. Today she is ok. Had the opportunity to compliment her for her actions.

And new MC in about 6 days. Hopefully that will begin to help. Pro marriage guy D is his last option.

Topping it off it seems once u get in this boat of marital distress the passengers keep boarding a friend said today how she is ready to give up on her H. Makes ya wonder.

Once again we all hang in there.


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## 8yearscheating

She has still not made up her mind that it is possible to work through this. Can I suggest getting a book called NOT "Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass. Good reading for both of you, especially her. Have her try and read about 1/2 to 2/3 - at least through chapter 5 of it before the MC session. You as well if possible. Here is a link to the table of contents:
Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends" Table of Contents


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## disbelief

Thanks 8, I will probably hold off on the book for her, I have one I suggested to her she hasn't touched it. MC suggesting might help. She wants to fix it all from inside her own head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

And then there are the moments where you feel like whatever if she wasn't here it would not matter. Part of the roller coaster I suppose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Until she recommits, your goingto have times when you would just as soon let her go than fight for it. It happened to more an more as time as went on. Hold on. Your not far from the mC and hopefully that will break the ice.


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## disbelief

Agreed, we had a discussion last night. She is acting as if she wants to fix it but she wants to do it without addressing the A. I guess from reading some of the manning up I am standing my ground and when she asked why it had to be addressed I gave a bunch of reasons. She still cannot believe I want to fix the m. She is going to go but says she doesn't want to go to MC. She wants her actions to speak for themselves she doesn't want to verbally state that she does or doesn't want to work on M. I accidentally mentioned D a few days ago, the brain. To mouth filter sprung a leak, she got very angry and defensive. I still have some fight for this left in me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well new MC. In the am, things have been. Less dramatic let's see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Stick it out disbelief, if you can get to the MC before hand give him/her a set of guidelines, some MC's do not fully understand their role. If you have to print out some guidelines from say marraigebuilders and ensure he/she is aligned . 

Do not let the MC try change the agenda, it is not for the MC to find excuses for the affair, yes to solve the problem that led to the affair, yes to tell the whole truth, yes for your wife to have remorse and acceptance for her having the affair, yes to affair proof your marriage going forward but the MC cannot and must not blame you or imply it is your fault for the affair that was 100% her doing. You marriage problems are equally shared the affair is wholly her doing


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## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> Well new MC. In the am, things have been. Less dramatic let's see what happens.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish you luck! 

Go with an open mind, as I know you will. I just hope MC will be able to crack her shell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks both this MC came with recommendations I spoke with him to see how he handles things he said case by case no cookie cutter. Divorce is last option. I don't think she wants d she got very defensive last time it came up. She has also said several times that the A was not my fault. I will review MB guidelines but I will not get to speak with him before the appointment its first thing. More hope now than months ago I think she has a clue as to how devastated the kids would be..........unlike when deep in the fog
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Getting ready to head to MC and horoscope says avoid situations with potential for conflict.................LOL ...........SIGH...............here we go......open mind...........brain to mouth filter, extra cup of coffee what would life be without a challenge!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AmImad

disbelief said:


> Getting ready to head to MC and horoscope says avoid situations with potential for conflict.................LOL ...........SIGH...............here we go......open mind...........brain to mouth filter, extra cup of coffee what would life be without a challenge!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good luck  x


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## 8yearscheating

be sure to let me know how it goes!


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## disbelief

Well i got a good impression from the councillor. He made it easy to talk, We reviewed what brought us there and that included the A my W just wants to pretend it did not happen. 
She got angry, cried most of the time. He asked if about saving the marriage I said yes. She didnt answer he asked her if she wanted a Divorce she didn't answer but she gently shook her head.

It really wasn't all to productive but it is a start. 

So she didn't want to go but she went she doesn't want to go she doesn't like it but if i make an appointment she will go with me.

I need an interpreter.

At least she hasn't taken down the wedding picture again.

Maybe I should start a new thread on the councilling forum??


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## 8yearscheating

Remember what I said, it will take 2 or 3 appointments for your wife to believe that it is non- threatening situation. Good start though. Keep at it. I'll tell you even though my wife has spilled most of the info I want, she still can't explain the why or why she flet like she couldn't end it. We are discussing vows and their meaning. She has yet to give an unconditional commitment. We are working on it. Patience my friend.


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## disbelief

I see her as very troubled, she complained of nightmares and waking up crying there is much she is not telling so far. The most promosing thing was her shaking her head when the MC asked if she wanted the divorce. Focus on my kids helps to go through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Right now, she sounds like the proverbial bratty teenager who knows everything and refuses to listen to good advice.
It's only after they live in the real world when they say "I wish I would have listened"-and that is how your W responds to MCs.


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## disbelief

I guess when you avoid conflict all your life it will finally catch up. This/she is going to get worse before she gets better. She either has to realize issues have to be dealt with or she is going to have a breakdown.

Proverbial teenager yup agreed. 

I I will survive!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

She gets up for work. I give her a coffee. She starts crying. I try to reassure her that I am here for her she doesn't need to suffer alone, she says she does need to suffer alone, that I should want to see her suffer and I shouldnt care.

Wait is that remorse or selfpity or loathing what is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Sounds like some remorse sticking it's head out. 

Keep reassuring her like you have been. 

We all deal with trauma in different ways. And yes this is probably trauma for your wifes brain. She was so torn between you and OM and was so certain that he was the ONE that she had probably already written your marriage off. 

Now with her being forced to look deep within and face reality, its hard for her to forgive herself and definitely hard for her to see you forgiving her. 

Keep it together - keep showing her the consistency and lets hope for another good MC session.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

disbelief said:


> She gets up for work. I give her a coffee. She starts crying. I try to reassure her that I am here for her she doesn't need to suffer alone, she says she does need to suffer alone, that I should want to see her suffer and I shouldnt care.
> 
> Wait is that remorse or selfpity or loathing what is that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has to learn to accept what she did. She sounds like she knows what she did and is taking responsibility emotionally at least but she somehow is having trouble coming to grips with the fact that she did it. Just love her, man, with everything you've got. That seems to be all you can do for now. I mean, at least you know how she feels about what happened and she doesn't want to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Perhaps self-esteem issues?


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## sinnister

That doesn't seem like remorse to me. That seems like self pity.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Perhaps self-esteem issues?


Always has been, i thought she grew out of them a bit .........nope she grew them to an A with another low self esteem person. Thats one of the key cheater ingredients I read about. Shes got like 5 or 6 from the time frame it started. Non marital factors. Life,job, medical etc.

Still doesn't change where i stand now.:scratchhead:


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## disbelief

sinnister said:


> That doesn't seem like remorse to me. That seems like self pity.


let's weigh in these comments then on remorse vs self pity maybe shame?

Hate myself, if I die (naturally) you get the money (no suicidal thoughts), i don't want the kids to know me in a bad way. Nobody should care about me, I am nothing, I am worth nothing. Answer Yes to wanting me to stop loving her. i can't fixM if I can't fix me. You don't know how I feel all day.
Just worry about you.
And there has been more.

But hey she finally expressed some of how she was feeling, there's some warped progress.

Time to sleep, i hope not to dream tonight.

Hang in there everyone.


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## 8yearscheating

She is still in the pits regarding her self worth - it's not self pity though it is easier to be a victim - she doesn't try to make it pity me, just no self worth becuase she believes there is no reason for you to still love her after what she's done. My wife still can't believe I'm still around and still questions if I can truly put it behind me.


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## 8yearscheating

Suggest this to her, if a friend of yours can work through a 20 year period with three different men, your sure you two can work through it. You two just have to start the work and that includes working through the questions you have and why it happpened in her position so you can prevent from happening again. Look into to that book I mentioned from Glass Not just friends


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## disbelief

Thanks 8, for the record I would have preferred to make your acquaintance at a happy party rather than this painful forum, at the same time I appreciate all the encouragement you have offered.

I will have to get that book for myself maybe someday shell read it. I have a small library at this point, she had an appointment this am she wont say who but I know, the way a BS finds out, its with her IC she said she wasn't going back, but I saw it written

Hope all is well on your end 8
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

We are doing pretty good. Our MC does a great job of translating between us on sticking points. We both want to retake our vows. The sticking point is what they mean. She keeps explaining them conditionally, me unconditionally. Know it's semantics but very important to me. I think we are close to her agreeing to the unconditional viewpoint....till death do us part and forsaking all others which to me means the marriage always comes first or takes priority over friendships and family
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Good to hear 8. I hope it all works without relapse.

I just realized a minute ago my W inadvertently admitted she was trying to rebuild my trust. She is less "prickly today also" still affection free though.

This is one crazy train with W admitting lifelong issues suddenly wow she always denied that. Maybe the A being a symptom I will believe at the end of all this she still gets that lost. Desperate face. I get to the point that I feel bad for her she is in more pain than me rt now. That's an ironic statement.

Time time for all to heal hopefully. For a better r for a better family life
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Shocking moment in behavior that is my W not the affair alien, she stated. " I am foolish"
About herself and the now post A situation.

And she just added to that, that she is embarrassed and dissapointed in herself that she let herself feel like she does. (Worthless etc) that she got to this point after having worked so hard for everything..........says she can't work on M till she fixes herself. He wall grows thicker it is beginning to effect her affection with the children she said so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Foolish about what?


----------



## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Foolish about what?


That was all she said then she wouldn't talk anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Ask her to explain foolish! I think you'll find she says she was "stupid" to wreck her marriage.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Ask her to explain foolish! I think you'll find she says she was "stupid" to wreck her marriage.


I think I was shocked she was speaking as much about how she felt. I will ask her to clarify but chances are she wont thanks 8.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisguidedMiscreant

disbelief said:


> I think I was shocked she was speaking as much about how she felt. I will ask her to clarify but chances are she wont thanks 8.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, disbelief? Could you try something for me? The next time she says something like that, I want you to mirror her feelings exactly. If she says that she feels foolish for wrecking her marriage, say that "We all make mistakes and I feel like a fool for letting things get this far." Don't take any blame for anything by any means but try to get down to her emotional level and see what she does. You don't have to if you don't want to but I'm interested in her reaction if you connect to her on an emotional level with no other apparent motivations other than you feel her, it just may help.


----------



## disbelief

Good reminder, I usually do that but she totally caught me off guard when she said that stuff I wasn't even close to conversation mode. I see it as progress that she expressed anything. Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Foolish about what?


She pretty much walked in the door from work teary eyed. Offerred my support that seems to make it worse. I asked about yesterdays conversation she says she doesn't even remember it. I asked what she felt foolish about her response..."I don't know"

I don't know if she cries because she is sad over the A, the M damage or not wanting to be at home. The only promising thing was her subconcious response of the no head shake at the Do you want a divorce? 

I told her again If this is the worst of the better and for worse I am still here. That makes her cry. Ugggh. 
Time to have a good day and focus on the kids.

All this pales in comparison to the Tsunami and quake in Japan.


----------



## RWB

Dis,

What you say about the terror in Japan...

Your are so right that at some point "we" the LS, DS have to climb out of the hurt hole and look at Life as a blessing everyday, a gift given to us. We all should try to do the "next right thing" regardless of failures of past days.

Press on.


----------



## F-102

She still doesn't really believe that you will forgive her.


----------



## disbelief

You maybe right 102. Today it is I hate mhself. I am nothing I said let me back in she said she is empty nothing to let her into, the whole we would be better if she went away. Remember she's been up almost 24 hours. So I asked again do u want me to give up...........her answer up to you.

Another good reason not to be a cheater, all the self inflicted pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Disbelief - have you asked the counselor how you can breakthrough? 

I'm on outside looking in but I'd be concerned about the deep depression and her lack of sense of forgiveness. Just saying I'd be watching out for suicidal thoughts coming from her. Sounds like she feels trapped and does not want to let you in on how she is thinking or telling you the truth. 

Good luck. 



disbelief said:


> You maybe right 102. Today it is I hate mhself. I am nothing I said let me back in she said she is empty nothing to let her into, the whole we would be better if she went away. Remember she's been up almost 24 hours. So I asked again do u want me to give up...........her answer up to you.
> 
> Another good reason not to be a cheater, all the self inflicted pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

We have only had one MC appointment she has actually expressed more since and I have to reschedule the next no doubt she is depressed but she will not take meds hopefully she will grow from her pain she inadvertently admitted she was seeing a counselor again and you are also right that she doesn't want to let me in. I am watching out for suicidal when she says anything along those lines I question it. Maybe its time to cross the line and talk to her sister again. That will really make my W mad.

Ahh the tired mind she answered with a yes nod when I asked her if she felt trapped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

That and are you positive about NC? Could the be talking at work or when driving home on Go Phones?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Honestly, not posotive if they are calling from old ma bell land lines at work then not much I can do. Snoop no never..........my eyes spy nothing like that, her behavior is not defensive like when definite contact. She truly seems depressed. But I watch for contact. As we have moved futher away from dec 30 when we confronted on emails I have seen the shift in behavior. 

I will keep my guard up. I think we are still in the withdrawal time frame right? I read 90 days from the author of Torn Asunder I think it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

Keep strong brother!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Still maintaining and networking to stay strong ............thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## justsam

Your holding on too tight. You gotta wake up sometime.


----------



## disbelief

Maybe maybe not i'm good my kids I am keeping good she's a mess. I several times told her. You want to go go. She filed d but didn't serve me, I don't hound her don't chase her. I reassure her I can forgive and rebuild but at the same time I leave her an out. To make her feel more trapped than she is making herself feel would do no good. At the same time I think if I pushed D a few months ago instead of being committed through the worst she would be an absent mom like a friend of mine has to deal with. So I guess we will see. She finally admitted to lifelong issues she always denied, I guess time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Now I maybe completly wrong but I think when a person responds from half asleep their defenses are down and the truth is there. Anyone correct me but behavior seems to be a bigger indicator. The loss of a defensive tone. The no I never told u to leave. Now knowing why she was behaving the way she was at the beginning of the a I know what to look for and I do not and have not pointed out to her her behaviors. Either way she has to realize her reality. I have been clear that I will not share her. Soon again I will bring up transparency and all that. If she connects again. I am more emotionally mentally spiritually prepared to act differently. Let's hope I don't. Have to if not for me for my kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm a little bit hopeful, actually. Humility is the first step toward recovery.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> I'm a little bit hopeful, actually. Humility is the first step toward recovery.


I can only hope and live life in the mean time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So I guess the next question is how long do I let her wallow in her misery. She just doesn't want to talk, still, with me with MC, I am sure she is depressed. Her reaction when I question NC was crying no answer not defensive, of course she doesn't answer any R questions lately. So what to do. Maybe some sort of seperation is needed. I don't know. Next mc in 2 weeks due to scheduling. Maybe I should try ignoring her????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Live your own life, do Plan A if you still want her to show her what she'd be giving up, be supportive of her misery for awhile. It's hard to hit bottom and realize you can be the cause of others' pain; it's a lot to digest - we spend our whole lives patting ourselves on our backs. If you talk, calmly remind her what will be required to stay with you and then drop the subject. Wait the two weeks.


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## disbelief

Thanks turnera, maybe I should give up r talk for lent  need to change my focus this morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I agree. What you need to R calmly, support when she's down with the reminder it can get better than before if she would just try. Then leave until next mc
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

This is gonna be a long long road. I keep reminding her she doesn't have to suffer through this alone because she is punishing herself. Pretty much when I look at her she cries. 
She asked me to go run some errands with her. I did that was fine even a little joking, very little. Feels like a first date kinda atmosphere. 
We get home i look at her say something mundane and she starts crying. 
UGGH
Kid gets home from school she composes herself.
She is punishing herself for her sin her words after I referenced not having to suffer alone. 

Another day. I'll say it again Nothing still to handle compared to the happenings in Japan.


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## 8yearscheating

Consider this, my wife, four months into R - tonight at the MC, hemade it VERY clear to her that she needed to sort herself out, learn to confront her issues and not run from them. He reiterated my request that any plans for new vows have to be based on unconditional statements that she is in it for the duration. She admitted she is in, but has to deal with her issues before she can. Add to that in a big way, she has to forgive herself. I can't do it for her. Her decision to run is what drove the affair. Her problems with me were because she wouldn't work through issues and stand her ground when she needed to for herself. Very low self esteem. My "fur standing up on the back of my neck" attitude never helped and just drove it further. So, me stepping back when fired up and cooling down before talking has made all the difference in the world. Avoids the not engaging brain before opening mouth that I do when not cooled off. We are also working out ways for her to go on Girls weekends (perfectly safe) and sisters weekends without me getting nervous. She now understands my side of it and what I'm doing to not make her feel controlled. So I'm doing a lot. She has a lot to do for herself I can't do.

Sound familiar? I think she needs IC and if the person she was seeing wasn't helping, find someone else. She also has to get over the perceived stigmatism of taking anti depressants. With everything that is going on, she probably needs the extra help. Something her IC should be suggesting or else she should be seeing a therapist that is also a psychiatrist and able to prescribe. My wife is doing both.


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## disbelief

Yikes! Way to familiar. At least my w is telling me she needs to work out her issues. Good luck I hang in, I will to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

The time of your message was while I was editing, read again


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## disbelief

All sounds on target and a reasonable course of action, I hope things continue in a positive direction for u. Sounds like the course my w needs. She has a councillor that's all she ll say. I think she will have to break down futher before she agrees to meds, if that's the case I hope she really grows through all this suffering .............sigh.........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I know why she doesn't want to be transparent on the cell phone, she hasnt deleted his contact, which has an alternate email for him. I just envisioned it because nobody snoops. And that phone is locked. ???? Dont know how i saw that.

But that being said i have no proof of email or any contact. Her behavior doesnt point to it. Do i just put this one in a pocket for now. She is very withdrawn overall.


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## Powerbane

With that being said disbelief - then they are probably still in contact and more than likely still making plans together.

How else can you explain the weepy behavior?

He's probably still emailing and talking with her daily. But then again you can't prove that either way. 

Do you know the alternate email? Can sister find out if there has been contact by that means?

I think as long as she still has that email then there is contact.


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## disbelief

Not to make excuses for her but she has always been an easy crier. And this is the worst situation she has ever put herself in, 
I was thinking covert on this check with sis she if she can check it. I magically aquired the email address.
I also don't know about a prepaid that she has that oops ceased to function after I didn't find it. (Sorry its late I should be asleep) she also still has that the phone gremlins told me. 

So I know she doesn't have her head back in the M. But she is coming out of the fog, talking rationally and all. Its in the spam blocker.

At least I am not jumping head over heels woo hoo she's back because she's not all here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I hoped you grasped it's been 4 months and my wife is just now facing up to her problems and that's with 4 months of MC and IC and meds. It's going to be a hard long road. Just keep the faith and keep supporting.


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## F-102

Hasn't deleted his contact?
You may be back at square one-she may be dragging her feet and getting all moody so that you'll finally give up, and she can work on the OM again, and this time, she's gonna get it right!


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## turnera

Maybe you need to readdress that you require total transparency and No Contact letter, at this point. Or else you separate.


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## disbelief

Well I agree with all of you. Here's my thought because this is what I want to say to her critique me I have about an hour to say it. My W...... I want to forgive you I feel I am almost at that point but I need to know by us being transparent with each other that there is no contact. That a no contact letter will be written i need to know you want forgiveness,and then we can work the process of helping each other to recover rebuild and move on with our family intact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sounds good. But you need to let her know you won't stay with her without that transparency and No Contact.


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## disbelief

Got it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

No contact is crucial to recovery


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## disbelief

Well I covered all those points nicely. She doesn't get the transparency she sees it as controlling, an ex did that to her had her followed etc. I expressed my needs , she cried she thinks I just want her email I said well thers no problem if there are no secrets. Being upset she said she'll just live in another room. Now she said she wont goto councillor. I've got a couple weeks for that, I wonder if meeting us individually one time would help. 
None of her be havior points to Contact..............does one ever do reverse psycology stay on guard work on the M and allow time to do its job............................I mean our greatgrand and grand parents must have dealt with all this without technology. Technology is catching everyone. Either way I have time I have no desire to chase other women yet. This is no quick fix right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Actually - to me - her reluctance to be transparent is a telling sign. She's got something to hide. 

That is BS about bringing up the ex behavior as well. Didn't you tell her that you are NOT her ex? 

The tantrum about not going to any further counseling sessions and living in the other room is a bluff in hopes that you will concede on transparency and NC letter. 

Did you run that new email address past OMW yet? I'm betting she does not even know about the address and that there is continued contact. Neat trick looking in the spam blocker!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

It's not controlling at all, Disbelief. You CANNOT work on your marriage is a third party is in the picture. There are no if, and's, or but's about it. You have to have total transparency and if she's not willing to work with you after betraying your trust, you need to decide what you want. Her saying she won't do counselling and moving into another room--all her decisions to make but what do YOU want. 

You hit the nail on the head -- there should be NO secrets. Especially after an affair is discovered. Did she tell you about it or did you find out about it on your own?


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## Jellybeans

Powerbane said:


> Actually - to me - her reluctance to be transparent is a telling sign. She's got something to hide.


I agree.

What was the OMW email about?


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## disbelief

I know she's hiding something his number and email anyway I blocked the email in the cell phone spam blocker not sure it really works but will try. I agree with all said. The upside would be if there is contact I would suspect it is much less and has much less meaning. Her demeanor was nothing like 4 months ago when basically we had the same conversation but I knew she just finished txting him. 
I think this time her cry was only half real and short. 

This time she was mostly matter of fact and at least now she wants to stay in the house with her kids.

Idk, but maybe part of her reluctance could be that to begin with she is an insecure person who wrecked this M by acting selfish and foolishly. She completly expects me to divorce her and try for the kids,
shoes on the other foot she said if I wanted to seperate I could file.  ahhh well that tells me she is at least making her way out of the fog because my real wife would never willingly leave her children that strange alien that was here would have and was planning to. I truly not naively believe her issues are far deeper than this A. And she hid them well all these years. Never truly letting me in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

She may be insecure but she has a right to be totally honest with you after having an affair.


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## disbelief

She apparently doesn't get that. Pretty sure there has been some emails but if I bring up the address I give up my source. OM AND OMW may be discussing D tonight...........great that doesn't help me bust supposedluy ha.........he is done with his family and mine.

Can't confirm the email OMW knows what provider to question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Yes - the D on the other side is bad. Leaves the damn door open again. Hope this doesn't change your wides mind or that she hasn't been waiting for this opportunity. 

If I remember correctly- didnt he go a little nuts and try to get a restraining order against everyone?

Praying for you man. And your wife. I'll include intentions with tonights Rosary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Dis, what was the email about? 

She's deluding herself by thinking she can play this however she wants, with no consequences. That is why you must remain firm on the fact that you won't be in an open marriage.


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## disbelief

Yup he did ......never actually did the r orders......I can only hope my. Is loving her family more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I will remain firm. Suspected emails that's the thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

keyboard logger??>


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## 8yearscheating

I would hold onto the appointment and tell her it's the only way you two can resolve things. Make the NC and full tranparency part of what you say there as a requirement to move forward. Move the mountain one stone at a time for now.


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## paramore

Move one mountain at a time... I LOVE that....


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> keyboard logger??>


OMW had one it crashed. OM uses his phone mostly. My W only uses her phone. I cannot find compatible cell software that will get me the emails. Either the OS is the wrong version or they don't do email and if they are in contact I believe that is how. Data info shows email sized data flow. But she conducts real email business with her phone so????

Her behavior doesn't add up to being in contact. I of course could be wrong. She could be trying to cake eat. She asked me to go run errands with her yesterday, she called me after appointments today. She cancelled an appointment so "i won't get a call asking where I am 5 minutes after I should be done" snippy tone.

I don't know, 6 months was my time frame from ???NC ??? 

We'll see i have been told i will know beyond a doubt when I am done.


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## 8yearscheating

What kind of phone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Droid incredible
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So after she had an emotional breakdown. i called her out I confronted the fact that I think she is still emailing. I basically reaffirmed my love and committment to the marriage the family, and helping her work through this. I told her there is no getting through it if she keeps contacting him. I told I will not share her heart and if she is going to be in contact she can do it somwhere else and that means leaving her house and kids. Left the ball in her court saying that she needs to do what is right deep down in every part of her. I said alot more. 
I'll be good the kids will suffer initially but they would adjust, they would not be happy if mom left and I think that is what adds to my graces. My W, appears sad, miserable, depressed and relatively pathetic right now. And I am the BS, I see her pain to be greater and rightfully so. I guess in the end it is Karma. 
She may go find her D papers I said go ahead. Told her not what I want, especially for the family but if that is the way it must be.
If she can live with herself. After all this she definitley has to make the final choice and without solid evidence I can only play the speculation card. Data bytes are just that, it could be checking the weather, it could be a blog like this one thats what my data shows.
Oh well won't see her much the next 6 days.


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## turnera

Good for you. That's how it has to be handled.


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## disbelief

What else to do the data evidence is circumstantial but it is to regular for it to be automatic. So. I don't know. I would still like to fix this but am losing all faith. Maybe I just "go dark" while in the same house but then she feeds her emotional need via email. I think she wants both. She will not answer even when I say I don't know you tell me. Gets defensive left room. Signs of lying ? 

Only time will tell.

See what card she plays today she will be near the courthouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisguidedMiscreant

disbelief said:


> What else to do the data evidence is circumstantial but it is to regular for it to be automatic. So. I don't know. I would still like to fix this but am losing all faith. Maybe I just "go dark" while in the same house but then she feeds her emotional need via email. I think she wants both. She will not answer even when I say I don't know you tell me. Gets defensive left room. Signs of lying ?
> 
> Only time will tell.
> 
> See what card she plays today she will be near the courthouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're a better man than I because I'd be done by now. Maybe you should let her see where her actions will take her. As of now, you're the safety net, take it away and let her see how life is without you or the kids. I mean, I don't know if she realizes this, but he's a piece of ****. He's a married man that ****ed his friend's wife. No part of that is a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

After reading on the emotional affair journey site and others I am really wondering if she just has to go through a process and I just have to let it happen in order for it to end and save the m, her behavior is she wants to be here and not D but she also makes statements that she would live as roommates. She has got to figure it out on her own. And I have no solid evidence so???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

All you can do is state what YOU will accept.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> All you can do is state what YOU will accept.


Well I have stated that several times really clarifying it yesterday. I don't feel distressed.............rt now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Misguided....my tolerance comes from a few places. The primary being the desire to prevent the divorce pain and suffering among 5 young ones. I believe I have that love and caring for her that goes beyond the just married love but devoted and committed and I don't see a better family life in divorc of course I also will not share her.
If she enjoys this emotional suffering then I don't know. I saw evidence she deleted his contact. Of course that could be because she suspects I got into the phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Prob won't post all weekend. I will be away she will have the kids. Well she didn't goto the courthouse to find her papers. She has been quite pleasant all afternoon after she saw her councillor. 
The email suspicion could be completly wrong. The data on the phones is showing up crazy. My line looks worse than hers but it is the time of day/night on hers that makes me suspicious. So i threw it out there, saying I hope if u need to email anyone it is me. She didn't react at all.
She basically said she would like to be able to start over, butt that can't be first date to married. I could try to view this as the tearing down to the foundation and rebuilding. There are so many things that we must have simply misunderstood about each other for her to get to where she was. 
Now it is a matter of where we are going. ????
We are not the same people as 6 months ago. And yet I still cannot fathom that Divorce would be better for the family????


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## Morenito0211

8yearscheating said:


> What kind of phone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have used Flexispy and Mobistealth, both of them with great success


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## F-102

Disbelief, I am behind you 110%, but you need to ask yourself a question.
Say you do reconcile, and everything is fine for awhile. 
What happens when she gets that old itch back? Will she say to herself: "No, I can't do this, I have a wonderful husband and family and I came within a hair of losing them before, and I commit myself to my H and what is best for my family."
Or, will she say to herself: "You know, I almost got away with this before, and I deserve to be happy with all the hell that my H put me through, and if this new, wonderful man who will make me happy again doesn't work out, well, my doormat H will just roll over and take me back again, so I know I have a safe Plan B to come home to, so, dammit, I sacrificed my true happiness before for this jerk I'm married to. No, this time, I'm gonna have my way and this time I'm gonna do it right."

Sorry to be a schmuck, but do you know what her long-term plans REALLY are? Is she being nice to you because she had to put her fantasy life with the OM on the back burner for now, and she's waiting for the smoke to clear before she goes out and tries again?

CAN YOU GUARANTEE THAT SHE WON'T DO THIS AGAIN? 

That question alone would have made me divorce her the second I found out about the A.


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## 8yearscheating

Whenever someone like 102 asks those questions, I ask myself if they were unsuccessful in reconciling or if they gave up and never tried. It's worth r if you continue to work through the a and she gets the help she needs to understand why she did it. Your not there yet. Keep the faith and give time a chance!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

8yearscheating said:


> Whenever someone like 102 asks those questions, I ask myself if they were unsuccessful in reconciling or if they gave up and never tried. It's worth r if you continue to work through the a and she gets the help she needs to understand why she did it. Your not there yet. Keep the faith and give time a chance!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not me, 8 yrs., my M is fine. It happened to one of our family friends-she came back to him in tears, promised to recommit to him, swore she would never cheat again. Turns out she was still contacting the OM, they were laying low until she and he got enough money for their own place (she only came back so that she could save the money), then she gave our friend the "I really, really tried, but it's just not working..." speech, and walked out on him and their 2 sons.
Well, now he has 2 grown sons whom he raised into fine young men (one's in Afghanistan now) who love and respect their father. They will have nothing to do with their mother, who, by the way, married the OM. She now has lost the house that they bought because he can't hold a job because of his heroin problem and history of kiddie porn, so he comes home and takes his frustrations out on her face weekly. We saw her recently-she used to be so beautiful-now she looks like one of those meth-mouth *****s they pick up on cop shows.


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## disbelief

Morenito0211 said:


> I have used Flexispy and Mobistealth, both of them with great success


With droid 2 OS I didn't think it was compatible?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

You maybe rt 102, she is currently not promising anything, not asking me for anything, she would be gone/ go hide from everyone if it were not for the kids. My kids adore mom. And yes I can raise them fine I am confident I am doing mostly on my own now. But it should not be. I said I would give it my all and I will however your post keeps me in check.
I am not desperate for her to stay.
I do not mind hearing the other side of the story, it took years for her to get this bad it will take a while for improvement.
I've got time I am working on me in the meantime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Not trying to scare you, disbelief, but it is something to consider. Still hoping for the best for you.


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## friendly

It's too hard to break the family even though she has longed for freedom. I can feel the great suffering for both of you.
Maybe there's a way to guide her love back to you as a wife, not as a roomate. She knows you want a wife but at the moment, her feelings told her she's only able to be your roommate because you're the father of her kids and she respects and treasures family value. I think there's always hope to save your M.
Just my little observation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks friendly, and 102. The flip side keeps me alert. When I feel all done I will take those actions. Also I may never trust her again I may never trust again period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Morenito0211

disbelief said:


> With droid 2 OS I didn't think it was compatible?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I used it for a Blackberry, but the Droid 2 is compatible with Mobistealth


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## marksaysay

Disbelief, I would just say that, inspite of all those who want to tell you to move on or that she did it once so she'll do it again, I believe that you should be applauded. I am currently in a similar situation minus the part where the spouse seems to atleast be coming out of the "fog". Mine is still pretty deep and I find myself at times wondering if it is worth the fight. Then I look at stories like yours and know that there is a shred of hope. I think that things can work out much differently with you and your wife than the family friend of F-102 if the proper things are done. We don't know what his friend did, but those who have been following you know that you seem to be doing the right things to give your marriage a fighting chance. Keep it up and don't give up until your heart tells you it's time to give up....


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## disbelief

Thanks marksaysay, in a way I have given up. I have given up on trying to convince her of what to do. Given up that anything will be as it was.
She must decide, this is more about family now. And what she want and knows is rt for them. I will be ok the children would be the next ones to suffer let's hope she gets it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I don't know maybe it is time I say to her your turn ...............I want out???

Morenito does mobistealth get the emails?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Family friend did nothing wrong-he was, simply put, a "nice guy". She married him because she was tired of the "bad boys" she was with who treated her like crap, but after awhile, she simply started to miss the attention that bad boys gave her, so she went and found a new one.


----------



## disbelief

Don't get me wrong I am on guard. Either way I am working on me. No matter how this turns out I will have alot of work personally and relationship wise. I said to her the other day sorry you love him more. Her immediate response without hesitation was "that's not true" this r if to recover will be new. Everyone feel free to keep me on my toes challeng me make me think. That's fine who knows what's rt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jar

Hey Disbelief
I haven’t been good with keep up with your thread but I can relate to what you are going through…

I have been there with installing things on wife computer etc….I would recommend that you don’t do it… It drove me insane always checking up on her and reading things that I honestly didn’t need to know about….If your suspicious your probably justified…If I were to do it all over again I would of found another approach….I am not sure what it would be at this point….Maybe a way in which you could encourage her to be transparent and honest with you on her own.
JAR


----------



## disbelief

Like an escape? Like if u r going to email I don't like it but don't lie tell me? What other strategy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Morenito0211

disbelief said:


> I don't know maybe it is time I say to her your turn ...............I want out???
> 
> Morenito does mobistealth get the emails?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes


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## disbelief

I haven't been wearing my ring for over a month I had a female coworker suggest to wear it I explained to her the situation. She still said wear it ..........opinions.......??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisguidedMiscreant

disbelief said:


> I haven't been wearing my ring for over a month I had a female coworker suggest to wear it I explained to her the situation. She still said wear it ..........opinions.......??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why not? I mean, you are married still, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Legally yup
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Put it back on but make a point of it to your wife that you are putting it back to let potential female suitors know you are taken....for now. You want to work it out, but it can't stay the way it is now.


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## disbelief

Anybody religous? I keep having little things happen and they keep tying into church someway somehow. i am not a devout believer, but it's strange how little things keep falling into place for ME taking care of myself. 
As far as my M still the same limbo since i said what i would accept and told her if she feels deep down Divorce is best for this family go ahead her behavior has been a little different but nothing to dramatic. I am avoiding R talk as long as I can in the next 8 days befor MC appointment. Still cant confirm absolute 100% NC.

Hate that she had an A. Hate how it affects the big picture. Arrrrggghh....vent......


----------



## Powerbane

I'm with you disbelief. Not overly zealous but yes - church does soothe me a bit. Especially during Lent. 

I look at it this way - what could it hurt to pray. I use the daily rosary as more of a meditation than anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

disbelief said:


> So after she had an emotional breakdown. i called her out I confronted the fact that I think she is still emailing. I basically reaffirmed my love and committment to the marriage the family, and helping her work through this. I told her there is no getting through it if she keeps contacting him. I told I will not share her heart and if she is going to be in contact she can do it somwhere else and that means leaving her house and kids. Left the ball in her court saying that she needs to do what is right deep down in every part of her. I said alot more.
> I'll be good the kids will suffer initially but they would adjust, they would not be happy if mom left and I think that is what adds to my graces. My W, appears sad, miserable, depressed and relatively pathetic right now. And I am the BS, I see her pain to be greater and rightfully so. I guess in the end it is Karma.
> She may go find her D papers I said go ahead. Told her not what I want, especially for the family but if that is the way it must be.
> If she can live with herself. After all this she definitley has to make the final choice and without solid evidence I can only play the speculation card. Data bytes are just that, it could be checking the weather, it could be a blog like this one thats what my data shows.
> Oh well won't see her much the next 6 days.


So after all of the above

We have not discussed any R stuff. I got home sunday night and made no effort to go say hi to her she eventually came in the room and asked me how my weekend was, short cordial conversation, that has basically been the mood. She was very pleasant but distant tonight, i accidentally cracked an old joke this morning and she responded in a normal tone of voice not angry and defensive. 

So to summarize her behavior she is acting better than in months almost full pre A wife personality, I have witnessed no crying in 5 days. She is readily informing me again of where and ahen she will be somwhere. So I am trying to figure out what changed????? She saw her IC friday, she could have gone to the courthouse, she didn't, she said she didn't have time. That was untrue because she was only meeting me and the kids.
She deleted his contact, not that she doesn't have it memorized.
She is engaging in her "normal interests" again.

Down side no spyware installed on droid with OS 2. Verizons data is reporting strange KB use which I would venture to guess due to size is email. Very limited in number, it could be non-OM email.

So should I question her good mood or just let it slide and maybe she will be up to MC next week???????????????

Gotta sleep now, thanks for any input!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:scratchhead:


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## turnera

IMO, you need to take the approach that you will ONLY accept a marriage wherein your wife chooses ONLY YOU.

Enough said.


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## disbelief

That is where I stand, it's just a matter of what's my next step. Actually give her some time without conflict because there really has not been except a day or two. 
I have come to realize this is a process for me for her and no matter the outcome I am improving in handling it daily.
I could be imagining it but "something" feels very different since last friday ....in a good way.... noting all the subtle things body language, tone of voice, attitude. 
I fully put this ball in her court, expressed all of the above and more I might have said I was done at one point told her to get her papers if she wanted. Then I have been acting as if all is ok not confronting rt now. And I threw the ring back on. And I feel like ..........whatever...........see if my IC can figure me out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Sounds like it's going in the right direction. Remember the tides!


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Sounds like it's going in the right direction. Remember the tides!


Remind me of the tides. My memory has always been poor but after this BS it's worse.

I am seeing some divorce busting and some Mars and venus stuff beginning to work in some situations.


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## turnera

If you're feeling a difference in her and think she's in NC, start making your marriage a better choice. It's recommended that couples spend up to 15 hours a week together doing non-work/chore-related things. In other words, treat your marriage like when you were dating. Keep it lively. Keep it where you look forward to time together. Try a new restaurant. Go on a day trip. Go to a museum. Ride bikes. Give good new memories.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> If you're feeling a difference in her and think she's in NC, start making your marriage a better choice. It's recommended that couples spend up to 15 hours a week together doing non-work/chore-related things. In other words, treat your marriage like when you were dating. Keep it lively. Keep it where you look forward to time together. Try a new restaurant. Go on a day trip. Go to a museum. Ride bikes. Give good new memories.


 Road trip!! Ha Thanks T I aam going to act as if there is NC I have no proof either way, she will not answer any direct questions if I question that now it will create a bad mood for a week. I want her to goto the MC and I want her to tell me herself so like i said i am at the whatever point. She has to decide. She keeps doing baby steps like she actually txtd to let me know she was running late at work last night and then even txtd again when she was walking out the door at work. She hasnt done that in IDK 8 -10 months.


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## disbelief

What fun this is ......NOT.... 
So what to do with the Disloyal W that is depressed refuses to see a doc to take antidepressants. I mean how long do I let her go on like this I wouldn't say she is wallowing. I mean i would say she has issues now I think all those years of bottling since probably childhood are in the process of burning her out.


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## F-102

By tides, I mean she will creep a little closer, then withdraw, then come back, just a little more closer, then withdraw...


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## disbelief

Then It is all in what I choose to tolerate. She basically admitted she wants both, and her IC told her she had a choice. I asked if he said divorce. And wow did she get defensive and angry, asking why I keep bringing that up.
I have seen the tides this week.
coffee time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

It took a number of appts with the MC before my wife agreed she had issues only she could resolve and that she needed a psychiatrist and not just a counselor that couldn't diagnose or prescribe medication. Yours is very against outside help to begin with. Once she has established some rapport or comfort with the MC you can bring it up as a requirement to move forward because you feel she needs to understand why and needs to stable to work on the marriage. Medication. Don't bring up D anymore. Stick to working through it and making the marriage better than before. For that to happen you both must move forward and tear down the walls and secret places.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

And don't call it antidepressAnts call it mood stabilizers anti anxiety or just medication. Your wife seemslike the type to never admit she's depressed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Last but not least. A saying I spotted yesterday. 
A man is not truly married until he understands what his wife is NOT saying!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

She's still probably so racked with guilt, she still thinks that sooner or later, someone (you, MC, friends, family) will snap and say: "Aha! So, you admit that you are a lying, cheating skank! You're a terrible excuse for a wife, mother, and human being! Now, we can blame you for everything and punish you for the rest of your life!" 
Maybe not as dramatic, but this is what keeps people from finding help and making amends.
I'm really hoping for the day when you don't say "it's coffee time", but you'll be saying "It's Miller Time!"


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## Jellybeans

disbelief said:


> What fun this is ......NOT....
> So what to do with the Disloyal W that is depressed refuses to see a doc to take antidepressants. I mean how long do I let her go on like this I wouldn't say she is wallowing.


Not your problem. You can offer all the support in the world, but it's up to her to make a decision about taking meds/trying to get help.

You can lead a horse to water but...


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## disbelief

See now this is why I am doing ok throw up a comment get feedback rationalize move to next issue in my head or a better day. I hope from all her suffering comes growth. She is not allowing herself to heal.
thank you for the responses good points, her concern about MC is he will not be open minded so I will have to make it neutral so she will go, it is Imho but don't know what she is thinking. To be Vulcan like Mr. Spoc would be easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So I mention her being depressed and get a very defensive IAM NOT DEPRESSED...WHAT ARE YOU MY DOCTOR. HMM must just be when she is home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So W woke up in a good mood today, stayed the same. She is going out tonight with her sister. So I say to her......if u feel need to call,txt, email OM ....... please don't call me instead but if u do please dont lie about it.
Her: OK
Then later she says you may be able to forgive but I cannot forgive myself.....I say there are ways to heal. She also said i should go find someone better I asked if that was what she wanted she said yes because i deserve it.................Hmmmm ................strange this so called life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisguidedMiscreant

disbelief said:


> So W woke up in a good mood today, stayed the same. She is going out tonight with her sister. So I say to her......if u feel need to call,txt, email OM ....... please don't call me instead but if u do please dont lie about it.
> Her: OK
> Then later she says you may be able to forgive but I cannot forgive myself.....I say there are ways to heal. She also said i should go find someone better I asked if that was what she wanted she said yes because i deserve it.................Hmmmm ................strange this so called life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How did she say it? Was it like "Oh, my God, I can't believe I did this to you" or was it more of like she was passive aggressively telling you to end it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

She has done the OMG tone upset crying saying it. Today it was just kind of matter of fact, not telling me to end it basically like this....asked for a hug (kinda let's me know how defensive she is) she said you don't need one from me I said but I want one from you, W: well u deserve if from someone better ME: If u feel that way W: I do, ME: so you want me to find someone better W: yes. Just a matter of fact tone we had about a week with. O R talk no conflict due to schedules and I just decided I am done pushing for a while she needs to figure it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Sounds like she is looking for the easy way out.


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## 8yearscheating

SHe is looking for you to say it will be OK. That you can move forward. She is stuck in self bashing behaviour not believing she is worth your attention. By not responding in a positive way you are reinforcing the belief she's not worthy of your time.


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## disbelief

Maybe she is looking for an easy way out but at the same time she is returning to pre A behavior around the house. So I see baby steps.
I responded by telling her I love her I choose her and there are ways to heal and work through this. Her mood has been softe accepting gentle touches and some joking around. 
Maybe I don't know she is truly afraid I am going to/180 from wanting her to stay and tell her to get out.

If she truly cannot forgive herself I cannot do that for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

Jeez... this sounds familiar...


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## disbelief

Either my W has learned to control those natural subconcious facial expressions and tones of voice or she is coming around. And she made a bad driving choice last night but she came home instead of staying at her sisters, with text and all to let me know she was on her way.
PROCEEDING WITH CAUTION ...........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Keep the faith my good man.


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## disbelief

Keeping the faith thanks, so maybe I am being to nice. I am out with the kids she gets up goto work and at the end of a text I get Ok. 
"I'm sorry I'm not the person everyone thinks I am or was or whatever. I'm not a horrible monster or bad person though."

Not sure the feelings behind that, she fears every person we know knows.
??????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

She's owning up to the damage she's done to you and to her reputation. Let her know a mistake is mistake and forgiveness is possible. It just can't be all on her terms. And no that doesn't mean you'll punish her.


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## disbelief

We talked a bit after the text and she had that irritated tone so I was unsure how to interpret the statement. 

Owning up huh, wasn't sure if that was kind of it. 

Thanks 8


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## MisterNiceGuy

Yes, your situation is eerily like mine. I would say though that you need to detach yourself emotionally from every little thing that comes out of her mouth or fingers (emails, texts, etc). I had to get off that emotional roller coaster that my wife is on right now. She basically said the same thing to me yesterday morning, that she is a very complex woman and has many issues that she needs to work out. That's right! They do need to work them out. Only they can figure it out for themselves, but we also need to get on with our lives.


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## Jellybeans

disbelief said:


> Keeping the faith thanks, so maybe I am being to nice. I am out with the kids she gets up goto work and at the end of a text I get Ok.
> "I'm sorry I'm not the person everyone thinks I am or was or whatever. I'm not a horrible monster or bad person though."
> 
> Not sure the feelings behind that, she fears every person we know knows.
> ??????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The fear is good. That means her little fantasy isn't as great as she imagined. That is why exposure works. Affairs are ugly.

Sounds like she is starting to realize she f-cked up.


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## turnera

Stop obsessing about every little thing she does. It takes a long time for a person to move back around to caring.


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## disbelief

I didn't think I was obsessing she does this stuff I digest it move on I don't hold onto it like a few months ago. As far as detatching I am there. It may not come across so here but her actions currently do not upset me. I don't trust her, if she gets mad it bothers me about as much as spilt milk in the dairy aisle. 
I think Im addicted to posting on forums now. I ll get over it learning to shift my focus in my self improvement process.
Besides this forum is a place where I can post what perplexes me for other who understand to set me straight. Which I thank you all for!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

WELL..................I have been nice without conflict for 2 weeks to the day. She is beyond moody. I expressed to her I didn't like the store she was going to because OM is often at another store in same plaza. Wow she got upset. I stayed calm. She definitely cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel for fixing this. I think she is still in a dark pit. I supposse reading between the lines is worthwhile. She is now even more defending staying in the house and saying fine you go file papers then. She only sees the marriage issues. I am seeing more and more how poorly we communicated. 

I goto MC alone today. Appointmet was scheduled but she has to work going to give him the whole story. Including some faults she just pointed out I had. 

She finally answered the question about contact, a very firm straight in the eyes no.

Had the transparency privacy vs secrecy. Conversation again. She tried to refer to 5 years ago and when I got a new work email. ???

I have my doubts TRUST so hard to rebuild.
Maybe I need to work a plan B, I am seeing baby steps while in this long plan A, but maybe its time to take away all my normal nice stuff. And go back to simple cordial only. Hmmmm, dunno need some revalation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Just noting behavior here. She was super grumpy and got angry this morning but I went to MC an he said she sounds extremly conflicted LOL. But I just realized a small behavior change instead of completly shutting down the M recovery completly she asked for a how and what does it mean and how do we do that.
it is again well you file papers if u want a D Then with me rebutting that's not what I want. 
So I told her if that's how she feels she can talk to the kids this weekennd and explain she will be moving out, she didn't like that so I said we can always fix it I refferred to her house search and she called me a vindictive a..hole first time she ever swore at me.

A while later I got a sorry text for the mean things said. Today is the 3 month mark since we confronted on the emailing.

And life goes on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Did you make another appt and is she committing to being there even if she has to change her work schedule?


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## disbelief

She has picked up alot of extra hours. She is not commiting to going. Is that a sign of her desire to fix things hard to say she dislikes councillors due to a bad teenage experience. I tried to do councilling long before A she refused ( communication stuff then it got better I thought). I went alone today discussed some stuff she wouldn't want to hear again. She just thinks. Love/marriage should not have to be worked for, it should come natshurally. She. Is doing things that are baby steps she even said tonight can't you see what I am trying to do, and I said yes I think so but it would help to hear what you really want to do.
don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Keep chipping away at the emotional wall she has up protecting her. Set and keep your new boundaries. 

My wife doesn't like counselors either but she pressed me to go back just recently for individual counseling. 

I never had the infidelity but I still have that same emotional wall that I'm trying to tear down. 

Small steps but don't p&ssyfoot around her - tell her straight-up what she means to you and also what you don't like about her. There is a way to say it tactfully but with force so she gets it. I used to walk around on eggshells around my wife, afraid of what she thought or that I was always the bad one. Not anymore and my wife has started respecting me more. 

We have more open & honest communication now too. 

So hang in there brother. I know it's tough especially carrying all the load to fix this while she wallows and wants it to just go away. 

God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks, I threw out the eggshells. I make sure I am tactful but at this point if she is going to get mad.....ok get mad. Still hanging in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

She may not like MC but has to understand you both need that as a mediator and translator so you can work through the extensive issues both with the M and the situation the A has caused. Both of you are too raw and obviously have not been able to put the M issues to closure before. I would tell her it's one of the REQUIREMENTS you have to insure a sucessful R because you two are NOT being successful so far and you can't hang in limbo forever. If it's her ONLY option maybe she will consent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I like your phraseology she may just chose divorce however she would have to file again. Last night she came out with "can't you see what I am trying to do " referring to working on the M.
couple baby steps this AM, she texted between work and home for errands and when her route changed she acgually called phone cut out she called back when she got to her sisters, even from the house phone. I may need to let MC and a retreat weekend set and simmer in her. I t doesn't bother me at all to be nice so I ll be nice schedule MC in a couple weeks. I would like to goto one of the BAN weekends but don't think she will. I think it would be the most effective thing in our case.

She still doesn't know if she wants M or not. She cooked a supper that's been ages. 
Trying to note the subtle things because that's one of her M complaints. I have told her we obviously were misunderstanding each other for a long time.
I will use your required statement at some point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ahhhmaaaan!

I just stumbled onto this thread. I know I'm gonna sound like a dork for asking, but here goes- Are you telling me, your wife was/is having an affair with your brother-in-law? Are you ****ING serious? What is wrong with people. I'm REALLY sorry bro. You know what this calls for a can of WUPP ASS!


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## disbelief

Was, or at least it's suppossed to be no contact. Who knows with all the available apps. Yeah they both deserve a big can of it my W is self inflicting her pain....so be it. Other man he can F himself and he will never have the satisfaction of me confronting him originally he was enticing it. I would rather spend time with my kids than locked up for assault.

What's wrong with people hmmmm............I don't get it........I see it as a result of 2 weaker minded people, unable to face reality, so they create an alternate world which in the end the new reality d day brings is worse and like war kids are the innocent casualties when it ends in Divorce.
still messed up, I have stumbled upon worse stories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So I have a long drive and just stopped and todays recurring thought in my head is. "Gee if she can't decide maybe I should ask her if I can date while she does decide" just keeps playing over and over in my head?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Threatening to date isn't a solution. I'm sure the idea of stirring some jealousy is attractive. It would only serve to make her think you are getting even and giving her a get out of jail free card. I would mirror her statement back "can't you see what I'm trying to do?" and say no I don't. Explain to me what your trying to do. Explain that you are trying to reconcile and make a better marriage and future together. You don't see her trying to do the same because there is no intimacy and no agreement to try. Counseling is required because you can't read her mind and the two of you seem to be an impasse in trying to resolve problems. If it can't be worked on, it can't be saved. You want to save it but can't live in the same house with an ex-wife who wants only to be a room mate and border. If she is truly serious about trying, it needs to progress. If she can't or this is some kind of test of your resolve, she's not being fair to you and needs to end it. You have done everything you can do. If this is a game of chicken to see who will file first, your fast reaching that point because you can't stay in a love less marriage. Game over, she should pack her stuff. Is your state a no fault divorce state? Have you asked an attorney if it matters who files first? If she leaves, can you charge her with abandonment to improve your custody? You need to clarify your options. While you need to keep it amicable, you also need to legally keep the deck stacked in your favor in case she gets ugly about it.


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## 8yearscheating

Side note about getting addicted to this forum. I found myself getting depressed about all of the sad tales on this site and it wasn't helping my own outlook. I try to limit myself so I don't get dragged further into the hole of despair.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

8yearscheating said:


> Side note about getting addicted to this forum. I found myself getting depressed about all of the sad tales on this site and it wasn't helping my own outlook. I try to limit myself so I don't get dragged further into the hole of despair.


Just stay positive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks both good points I wouldn't go with the dating question but I could not get it out of my head. No fault divorce state doesn't matter who files first. I have read the abandonment laws and she would have to do more than just leave. She could have fetched the D papers she filed she didn't. We are past the time frame in which fhey are good. I have documented what I need to in case of custody issues. I still hope to reconcile. Several baby steps this weekend or at least that is my perception.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Not trying to dissuade you. Stay positive and keep the faith if that's what you want to do. You know your limits. I just now I would be getting impatient at this point and maybe a good push is needed.


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## F-102

"I know that progress has no patience, but something's got to give."

And 8yrs, I felt the same way, and this is about the only thread that I follow religiously.


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## disbelief

Never thought i'd have a following................... I see baby steps but they r tiny. I hear her voice softening, it reverts when she is tired. The clues I have been watching have either decreased or gone away. So I have that 6 month mark in mind since the confronting on emails that makes it june. She will either decide or I will. I have read the fog can take longer to clear for the ladies, and that the 90 day mark is a critical turning point. It doesn't hurt me to be nice, but yeah something has got to give. 
I need to man up tactfully, I am going to schedule another MC. I Will explain as you suggested 8. We def. Need. MC. Thanks all I must be crazy ............I m not done yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Well - like it or not you do have a following!

You've got more people than you know praying for both of you. People you don't even know. 

You're doing fine. I know you're being the best Dad any kid would ever want to have. You're showing her everyday what she would be missing if she left. 

Have a great week!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Thanks powerbane, 
I guess noticing baby steps like. A few months ago her not letting me know what she was doing to now her following up a text I didn't answer with a phone call, for her more than ever bottled up protecting herself behavior...................I guess that little action is a good thing.
Looking. At the big picture, focusing on my kids, doing thing I have never done with the kids. 
It will all work out..................one way or another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I'm one to talk. I am just trying to build my confidence in my wife. She hasn't given me any reason to doubt her. Still, there's a voice in my head saying don't be a fool. She lied for 20 years and would lead me down the garden path in a heartbeat. Trying my damnedest to put those thoughts away and move foward. My biggest frustration us like yours. She still won't commit to retaking her vows saying she needs to understand why she did it and be able to honestly tell me she has put all the excuses she used behind her. That was my stipulation. Now it feels like she's not sure

Stay the course!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

You as well 8 hang in there. This is not a journey for the weak or those who will not seek support. Realistically that is how this would fail but on my W's side because she wants to fix it alone.

Good thing I am more of a long distance runner type than a sprinter. 

May we all have the power and strength to have the best outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Look at my thread. We had a major breakthrough today! Thanks especially to you disbelief!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Say, disbelief, I notice your posts are getting fewer as time goes by. I'd like to think that this is a good sign: i.e., less drama?


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## disbelief

Yeah combination of less drama me searching less confroning less caring less, she is making babysteps starting to express herself, to bad she didn't before. ******* the OM. She is conflicted for sure. Asked her to do a night out this weekend pretty much got a no. So I said how do u want to work on this then?
so its still messed up if she's not careful she will lose me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Sorry to hear she's getting sh!TTY. Just remember, part of feeling guilty is a bad attitude toward those you feel guilty about. Still think she needs a wake up call
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

She is but with it she expresses more of what has bothered her, perhaps it is guilt she said something like "you have no idea how I feel and I battle it every day"

Any suggestions for a wake up call?
I am getting a phone call when I don't respond to her txt though. I am tired of guessing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Just be true to your ownn feelings.


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## disbelief

Remaining true although at times I wouldn't mind just having a med that turns off all emotions or just being IDK A vulcan star trek type. 
Maintaining my sanity. Trying to note her subtle changes because she believes they are hugely obvious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Infidelity does breed its own repercussions. My W is currently experiencing it, having been at the wrong place at the wrong time a few months ago alone no OM, no family because she had to get away. Something happened at that place and now she is inadvertently involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I've said it to her before but I need an effective statement that says I want u to stay I love you and want to fix this but I don't know how much longer I can do this. I tell her go ahead go since u feel u need to excuse : I have no place she could affors a 1 room apt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What's going on?


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## disbelief

Emotional zing triggered by todays events she broke NC because I had the phone number blocked. They weren't smart enough to think of using a land line or just emailing the issue ( DUH) It was a police matter, that the police turned into an affair matter. She was a big mess and I am sure not thinking clearly. She told me about the conversation with police and she even opened up about email contact that had taken place in December. So a good from a bad. She felt need to contact OM because police maybe contacting him about same issue. Even though neither were involved, her car was in the wrong place wrong time and the PD obviously checked cell records already since they tied in OM.

I will pm the details don't want it all on the board I told her there were other options to informing OM of legal issue other than face to face. She's also on no sleep.

I reinforced I want to save this still love her, she said she is being unfair to me it's not right i should do whatever i want. She gave me permission to date and sleep around do whatever I want wooohooo!!! (sarcasm). She's a big emotional mess today.

Just another day in the world of Disbelief.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What you need here is a pre-arranged agreement on what either of you would do when something like that comes up. As in, if she had to contact him for whatever emergency, she would FIRST have to come to YOU and inform you of what she's about to do.

You need to discuss setting such an agreement up.


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## disbelief

Agreed, she is such a mess right now. She sees anything like that as me controlling her but I will address it, will end up speaking with OM W.
The posotive: she told me about the contact. My reaction: calm cool collective said I would rather she tells me she needs to contact him than not tell me where she is or what she is doing.


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## 8yearscheating

Message me off line and tell me what happened. It sounds like my wifes relapse. The wake up call is simple. Tell her you have seen baby steps and honestly believe she wants to try. However, her secrecy tells you otherwise. While you want to believe the best is occurring, her lack of willingness to go full disclosure such as open phone and contact can only lead you lead to believe the worst possible your imagination can dream up. Her lack of willingness to see an MC tells you she is not serious abut reconciling. You are NOT trying to control her and know you never can. It has to be of her own free will that she brings openness and honesty back into your relationship or it can't ever work. You've been patient and have waited with open arms for her return and you are indeed in a very small minority who would have stuck with her and given her a second chance. You deserve respect and progress for your efforts with full disclosure and a willingness by her to see an MC as a mediator and translator so the two of you can truly make your marriage better than before because obviously BOTH of you have failed trying to do it alone. Your patience is wearing down and you are losing hope that she can take those steps. You don't want to sleep with anyone else, you don't want go hunting for another woman. It would not fix anything between the two of you. You need to know, is she willing to do what it takes? Is she willing to show you the same forgiveness you have shown staying and trying to get her come back to you? Or is she truly done and should she proceed with filing? The ball is in her court. She must get off the fence. You can't continue for much longer. 

That is non-confrontational but let's her know she cannot be completely in control of the situation - it involves BOTH of you and the Affair gives you some rights to require action on her part and not be left in limbo. This is what I did what with my wife and told her she had a couple of weeks to let me know. At the end of those weeks, I told her I had discussed it with my lawyer and was prepared to start with a legal seperation for three months and then do a mediated divorce with one lawyer so that two lawyers did eat up everything we had. It was not what I wanted but she giving me no choice. That was enough for her to move off dead center and agree to try starting with MC and an IC for her. This occurred over a period of three months from discovery. My situation was even more severe in terms of the duration of the A. I think you have been very patient and I applaud you for it. You also deserve great kudos for being in that VERY small minority that didn't walk away or make punishing her a goal. As part of this I had also made changes in myself she recognized.

Do it how you feel best. I am not in your shoes and I don't know your wife.


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## disbelief

The journals of disbelief.........maybe she needs a point blank statement like hey keep up the good work of extinguishing my love for you the fire's just about out.............
it just passed through my mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Apr 6: my horoscope:
If someone has been getting on your last nerve, today is the day to stop the madness.

Now the burning thought I woke with which I believe to be the truest thoughts one has. I woke up thinking she has done it she has effectively pushed me to the fence and now I am on it. I am drafting the letter that says it all my feelings my needs to R my willingness to do the same. 
I don't know that if we talk today I will be abe to restrain from stating to her " you have pushed me to the edge I want nothing more to save us to rebuild a better us, if your goal was to push me away you are succeeding and it is not even the A but your actions in the last 3 months, so you are loosing me the ball is 200% in your court"
I am considering talking to her sis, and only telling her exactly what I tell my W, my W needs someone to reflect with sadly the children is who this is left to effect.
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## turnera

Why NOT tell her the truth? Isn't that what a marriage should be?


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## disbelief

So the whole forgiveness thing..... read more about it listened about it I think deep inside I have forgiven her for the adultery so I took a leap of faith and told her that. Look of surprise. That doesn't include the lying etc and anything from this point foward but idk.

I also said to her if she is trying to loose me she is pushing me there. So ......revelation .....that was followed by her being angry saying she's done telling me to go file divorce, I told her she can.....ahhh LOL.... she now believes there is a whole conspiracy against her. OMG. 
What a mess boy am I tolerant.
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## turnera

Maybe you should.

File, I mean.


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## disbelief

We'll see...... I told her she can. Its like a teenagers angry outburst she sounds desperate saying she can't count on her family and we all set her up especialy with yesterdays stuff. Actions speak louder than words. I think its safe to say she is conflicted. And confused, I mean she filed didn't process it now she's telling me to ha if she wants it she can spend the money. She needs to woman up and face her fears the facts and life and I am willing to work on her to do so, because in the end it effects my kids. She wanted to open her own phone account I said no we'll see if she does anything. I will prob be nice when she wakes at least we argue when the kids are. Not home

Maybe I should just maybe, she's all talk until I say go ahead
but why should I that's not what I want.
if she does she has to rethink it all.............this time period is still currently less. Than 1/50th of the time of our total relationship. And I hate math.
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## disbelief

Here I go again, new MC appointment. Couldn't get one until may 5. She doesn't want to go because she doesn't like councillors I said last I knew this was about both of us. I softened it said she can lead the talk. We don't have to talk about the A. (I know eventually we will need to) also said it will help/if we stay together or not he can act as an interpreter and so on. She's mad but OH WELL!
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## turnera

So what if she replies that way? You can't trust anything she says anyway; she's in the fog.

Look. We all know you don't WANT to be out of this marriage. 

But SHE already IS. 

By you just holding on and hoping she'll 'come around,' you are (1) making yourself look like a doormat - and no woman can respect OR love a doormat - and (2) setting yourself up for depression, mental breakdown or worse by continuing to act as if this marriage - in all its shambles - is what's keeping you going.

It isn't. Your DREAM of the marriage you THOUGHT you had is. And you can't get that back until you are ready to give it away. It's just the way it is. If you don't believe me, start reading other threads in Infidelity...you will see the exact same pattern in 99% of them. The betrayed spouse hangs on and on and on and on and on, and gets more and more depressed, loses all his/her self esteem, and the more he does this, the more the wayward despises him - until she DOES leave.

The only thing that's going to make her care at this point is if you tell her you will NOT stick around unless she commits to the marriage. And then you ACT on that by separating if she refuses.

What were you planning to do if she refuses to go to this May 5 appointment?


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## disbelief

I am not acting like a doormat. I am not even holding on now. Whenever she hints to any sort of leaving I say go ahead. If she refuses MC. Well when she got snippy about it I said last I knew this was about both of us and so we go. I don't whine beg plead. I do whag I have to to take care of my house and my kids. She goes to work comes home.

You triggered a good thought I will have to draft a seperation agreement and print up a list of apartments for if she refuses. 

She was mad because I blocked OM phone number, she threw a fit and saiid she wanted her own phone line, I said go ahead get your own phone line and you can move out too. It's just a level of secrecy. Said I would give it my all and I am. It is very possible I will state more clearly to her my needs like 8 stated a couple posts back my brain keeps flashing sunday, my self esteem is fine if anyone is depressed she is.

Another part of me is willing to go longer and break this down to a bare bones friendship and discover all that went wrong. 

All may not agree with it but if I choose thag route and I am not being harmed I am secure in myself setting my boundaries not allowing the A to continue and my children are not sufferring is there really a right or wrong at this point even biblicaly God hates divorce but on the grounds of adultery you have the right to divorce but then do all you can not to divorce...............so yeah I have a nice guy attitude however it is swirtching to tough love with her. 
She could be somewhere else if she so badly wanted to be done. So now if she is conflicte because let's say she was unhappy about the M for 5 years but it took til the A for it to come out isn't that a long term project? That's no drive through fix.
this is how I think, I am what I am. I will always be me at the core.

Quote:
"The time is always right to do what is right." Martin Luther King Jr.


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## disbelief

I have only been stuck in this 6 months and only feel like I just came out of my own fog with medical assistance mind u. 

So is it always cake eating when you contiuosly give them the option to leave and they stay or are tthe waywards perhaps truly messed in the head after screwing up so bad?
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## turnera

Sounds like you have a good handle on it.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Sounds like you have a good handle on it.


Just managing, not bothered when she goes off. She said she needs more space I said well then one of us needs to leave and she knows I don't mean me. The other day really tweaked her. We were discussing a vehicle she said she would take over paying. And put her name on it take mine off. I dont really care, but I said might as well divorce then that would be the only reason to do that. She screamed in defiance at tne divorce statement.
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## 8yearscheating

I still think laying the ground rules and putting a time limit on a definitive in or out is the only way. You should talk to an attorney about a separation agreement and a one attorney negotiated divorce. Then tell her if she insists on two attorneys it could cost $20-40k. With one $6k. Your patience is admirable. I just don't think she will ever agree to IC or MC without a hard push off that fence. Her independence and attempt to remain in control won't break without it. You know her better than I do. My wife was stubborn as hell until faced with the facts and reality that I would'n't and couldn't let it drag out forever. 
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## disbelief

I agree and that's why I have been pushing back. You want your own phone line=bye, 
you don't want transparency= well this isn't going to work so you can go file.
She hadn't asked for space until this stuff the other day.
It really messed with her head, she truly thinks I am out to get her now,
when she throws out leaving I say go. I do know if I don't give state all these direct hints first if I were to jusg drop seperation papers in her lap it would have (most likely an unfavorable result) 
IDK.....I have a seperation draft from dec. Not legal yet draft in the watermark. That might shake the fence enough. 
Hope yours is going bette 8. Maybe your W sould call mine.  


Quote:
"The time is always right to do what is right." Martin Luther King Jr.
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## 8yearscheating

A quote from Foghorn Leghorn
"I don't need your love to keep me warm, Widow Hen. I have my BANDAGES to keep me warm!"
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## 8yearscheating

And another
"Your doin a lot of choppin but no chips are flyin!"
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## 8yearscheating

And one from General George S. Patton
"We heard sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people. Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Like em   
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## 8yearscheating

Mine is going well. Been a rough week. My wife had the meniscus repaired in her left knee after having had her achiles tendon reattached last July so she been more or less incapacitated since then. She has been having severe shortness of breath since the surgery. Weds they ultrasounded both legs, did a CAT scan on her lungs, multiple EKGs, enzymes and yesterday a stress test and echo cardiogram. Everything came back negative and my wife is getting real frustrated. She fell asleep in my arms crying last night. So it's been an insane stress filled week for both of us. Only positive is it has hit her really hard how much she relies on me and it's just one more huge thing the OM never had to deal with which she
NOW realizes how severely she was being used and how rock steady I've been in spite of A. 
Digging through it and being that rock waiting on her hand and foot and doing everything. Getting worn out though. 
Keep the faith!
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## disbelief

Sorry to hear all the medical stress that's never fun hope all works out well.
Don't forget the RICE. Rest Ice Compress Elevate.............the leg that is 

Good for you being rock steady, I maybe wrong but I am beginning to believe that there is a whole other aspect to life that has been lost that includes tolerance and fighting/trying for a longer period of time than a short period. So maybe it will work out for the best for all of us who keep trying.

Don't forget to gake care of you while taking care of her.
Keep the faith as well!
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## F-102

She contacts the OM again.
She refuses to address the A and the real problems.
She won't talk to you now without it turning ugly.
She refuses to take advantage of the opportunity to save the M.
She refuses to see a MC.

Basically, she's refusing to reconcile. You, disbelief, are her "safehouse" until the smoke clears and everyone calms down. Then, she can tell everyone that she really, really tried, but it just didn't work out.
Then, she can pick up where she left off with the OM again.

Look, db, I know the kids will suffer, but they will eventually get over it. You've already shown that they have a father who cares and will put their interests first. And she has already shown that she is willing to destroy the M and leave the children behind.
True, there will be ugliness. She may try to turn the kids against you, tell them that mommy just wanted to be happy, but their father the j***ass wouldn't let her, so she was right to leave daddy. But, the kids will be grown up someday, and they will eventually learn the truth.

Db, I think you see where I'm going. I think it's time to seriously consider divorce. Your wife obviously does not respect you or her family. The only thing she respects now is the devil on her shoulder, telling her that she's making a big mistake by staying, that she will achieve her true happiness when she is back with the man that she was really meant to be with.

And, the sad thing is, the only way for her to see what she is truly losing, is to let her lose it.

I'm sorry, db, I am still in your corner, but I really don't think your W wants to get back in the ring. She wants to throw in the towel.

An old Chinese proverb said:
"When you come to the last page...close the book."


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## disbelief

Duly noted 102. Like I said I would give it my all. I don't know if I have posted what she has heard from me this week, the OM contact was totally a unbelievable situation on top of all this stuff I will PM the brief details she was beyond freaked out

I have many times stated I will not share her or her heart. I told her just this week, she can leave 3 times in one afternoon. She said more space I said move out. She said blah blah divorce I said fine talk to the kids this weekend. Oh yeah she was suppossed to do that last weekend. 
She looses it in a defensive manner when i say fine lets divorce then, it is now her saying well you file the papers I said no you file like two kids arguing LOL.
I have listened to alot of the beyond affairs teleseminars, the reality is this time period is a mere fraction of my life. 
I am OK my kids are OK. Mentally she is the worst off. 
So yes I see your side, part of me agrees with it. At the same time does a problem that grew over 15 years then stewed as a secret in a affair for 6 months now yes 6 months since DDay, but does that really resolve quickly.

So divorce is well on the table for an option in my mind but I still prefer reconcilliation. My seperstion draft will be updated, and ready soon.
Kid time gotta go.

Like the proverb


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## disbelief

So I am turning my ways tougher and my niceties have pretty much ended. Not letting her get away with inaccurate statements. Called her on a couple last night. So hey if we D at this point ok If I work this longer and 20 years from now its good OK. Whose to say.
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## disbelief

Well reading the book Love Must Be Tough. Interesting, the perspective is helpful. Sticking to firm answers statements with her, it's helping me to 180 Again and back off and detatch more. Dunno we'll see now it goes.
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## disbelief

In a brief conversation about a jointly ownwed vehicle, she expressed she would like it in her name she wants to work to pay it off on her own her paraphrased wording "I want it in my name because if it doesn't work out I don't trust you wont turn around and try to take it as yours" ...............now she betrayed and broke the trust yet she doesn't trust me well she says she trust noone now..........hmm. otherwise calm here.
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## ahhhmaaaan!

She wants you to file, so she point to the kids, or whoever, later on and say " You're father was the one to give up on our family." What a conniving *****, if a may be so bold.


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## WhereAmI

disbelief said:


> In a brief conversation about a jointly ownwed vehicle, she expressed she would like it in her name she wants to work to pay it off on her own her paraphrased wording "I want it in my name because if it doesn't work out I don't trust you wont turn around and try to take it as yours" ...............now she betrayed and broke the trust yet she doesn't trust me well she says she trust noone now..........hmm. otherwise calm here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was trying to convince my husband to do this before I let him know I was leaving. 

IMO, you should refuse. She's planning her getaway. If you care to be bold, tell her that she can try to get the car in the divorce, otherwise everything that's under your name will remain that way until she earns your trust back.


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## disbelief

Quite honestly the vehicle.....more is owed than paid I don't really care about it. As far as her filing she did back in December those papers expired she very easily could have had me served.
but I will push off doing it she would have to refinance loans in both our names. 
I'm suppossed to be the one not trusting ............oh yeah im not. I see more behavior suggesting she wants to stay now than go. However she needs to get on board and off the fence, her voice tells alot and it has been softer and less defensive and she lingered in conversation before work today she has not done that in forever. Of course I am nearly ignoring her. A 180 from my attentions she was getting. 
I'm on the fence now too and soon I will strongly point that out to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Perhaps you should start getting separate bank accounts and credit cards.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Perhaps you should start getting separate bank accounts and credit cards.


I changed my stuff a few months ago she has no access to my pay.
honestly she seems scared truly that I am going to go down this nice let's fix it path then suddenly turn on her. When I say that I have noted behavior that shows she is scared and I have not provoked ir?

All that now coffee........no grouchy time.........see I have come a long way......
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## Powerbane

disbelief said:


> I changed my stuff a few months ago she has no access to my pay.
> honestly she seems scared truly that I am going to go down this nice let's fix it path then suddenly turn on her. When I say that I have noted behavior that shows she is scared and I have not provoked ir?
> 
> All that now coffee........no grouchy time.........see I have come a long way......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you! Coffee time!

Are you getting any individual counseling to hp deal with your issues?

I do agree with you - it's time to start mKing some moves to push your wife in one direction or the other. From what little you've told us - she works, comes home and that's it. Just barely speaking and when she does it's like she's still waiting fir the other shoe to drop. 

Keep nudging her. Go to counseling for yourself.
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## disbelief

Yup coffee. I have an IC MC is scheduled. Next time she says she wont go there's going to be some comment like well then there's the door. The more I "plan b" as far as paying her little attention the more she opens up to me, I now believe she has harbored issues these past 15 years like childhood ones.
There's a good statement from me to her. That is she's wairing for the other shoe to drop it will only be if she pushes it off the edge!
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## 8yearscheating

Childhood, teen years, self esteem, family enviroment and how the parents dealt with issues and her.....definitely all play a part in her makeup and how she is dealing with crisis and guilt. My wife was #9 in a family of 11. By the time she came along a pattern of make no waves and suck it up was ingrained in all eight of her sisters from mom. There was also little one on one interaction, attention and love from her parents. They didn't have time with 11 kids. She and I met when she was 16 after the first love of her life - a good friend of mine- died in motorcycle accident. She fell hard for me. I obviously filled a need for love, attention and esteem building. Before she started going to college, I decided I needed to make sure she was the one I wanted to marry and broke up with her and started seeing others. Her reaction was to immediately have 2 one night stands. We got back together but she never got over my betrayal - side note I never had sex with anyone else until long after her 2. Because I travelled a lot, she felt unappreciated after our 1st two kids. After our second she had severe post partum and left for 8 weeks. That's when the first two short affairs occurred. We went to MC. Her deep depression continued but I thought we were back on track. Shortly after MC ended she started up with my "friend" and that went on for 18 years on and off. The on occurred every time we fought and the OM was definitely playing her insecurity and being a shoulder to cry on with benefits. It became a habit.
So, her inability to make waves and confront issues along with her extreme lack of self esteem....drove her behavior. 
So be sure to understand her WHOLE history. Not a justification for her actions, but a real guide to what she needs to work on and get past. Hind sight is 20/20. Understanding how her personality was formed will help you to understand her behavior and needs!
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## disbelief

Roger that 8 ! I can think of at least 2 abandonments offhand. By her mother when she was 3 and by a boyfriend. Mom just up and left for. ? Period of time then divorce because of moms affair, step dad was OM Turns out her mom treated him lousy guess what years later her mom had an A and divorced him.
So i'm learning, I wish there had been a different catalyst than the A. Innocence lost. 
" Inability to make waves and confront issues along with her extreme lack of self esteem...."

That quote describes my W and the OM
Anyone else's match that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

By not taking action herself to resolve these issues for herself, I firmly believe she can fall into the A pit again. I made it a requirement to my wife that she a therapist/psychiatrist so he could help her deal with these issues as well as being someone who could prescribe Meds to help her deal with the depression. She did as asked and it has helped her dramatically. While I was seeing and IC I made it a point to discuss every session so she could better understand me and asked she do the same both to keep things open and honest and so that I could better. Understand her problems. It has helped us both. She may call it controlling to which I would respond it is both of your best interests to make the marriage as strong as possible and to make her strong enough to resist the A temptation in the future. It is also the only way she can confront her guilt and delusions of a conspiracy to get her. Side note - check out this link. You may want to print it out and give it to her.
http://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/guests/2011-04-13

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## disbelief

Thanks 8 I am on board with your point. I believe she in alot of denial as to how to fix this, I have to stage a new approach with my IC its more like checking in and hasn't been to constructive. I don't care if she just comes to MC and we start on everything but the A she has to open a door she is very guarded. Yet a first in a long while she allowed half a hug yesterday.
I have more or less moved to a plan B of less attention intentionally doing things so I do not have to be where she is. I may be wrong but she is starting to engage me more.

I wil print that. I think that's from the guy at the 911 EMS affair recovery. Actually spoke with him yesterday.
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## 8yearscheating

My IC sessions started the same way until I started asking him questions on how to best approach and discuss things with my wife after filling him in on our past problems, the things she was giving me as issues now, many of were from her fog and long since resolved but were her justifications for having an affair. I then started asking his advice on how to reason with her to get her to understand my problems and what she needed to do to get started resolving them without her feeling controlled. In following sessions I reported the results and strategized next steps. The standard practice with most ICs is NOT to offer guidance unless you pull it out of them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

We shall see what happens here. Hope all is well on your end 8: IDK, If my w had some realization, is reading something or what but last evening and today she has been quite nice. Accepting 2 hugs which was me testing. Not jumping away at other touching pg rated. Maybe its my 180. We r on day 9 of me just not paying her much attention and really not concerning myself, I am finally able to comfortably only contact her for house kid money stuff, I also once again put the ball in her court. ....forgot about that. Hmm ..........dunno. 
hang in there everyone!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Things are going well. My wife did talk to all three kids and told them it was her and not me and that she was very happy that I had stuck with her and not left even though I should have. She didn't divulge the affair and I didn't expect or want her to. All of my kids are reacting very differently to me now. So things are going very well. 
Your wife is probably beginning to get it and starting to move out of a fog and self pity phase. Hoping and praying for all the best for you two. Stay the course and head up and proud. You deserve a LOT of credit for being in the 25% minority that hangs in there to try and make it a better marriage! I pray she does a full turn around for you soon and starts to show you the respect and love you deserve.
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## disbelief

Good to hear 8. Hope all continues on a posotive course.
I have been reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and some other books and it has affected my thinking. As a result we ended up in a converstation today that went something like this:

I changed the MC appointment to a day with no conflicts W: no response trying to find something on the schedule with a reason not to go. When there was nothing she says you know how I feel about counseling, I said well last I checked you were not alone on this journey.
That rolled into this summary of how my wife is feeling: She doesn't want to be married she feels transparency will make her report to me she admits to being stubborn doesn't want to hurt me anymore, wants me to divorce her if thats what would be fair. She would not answer if she wants a divorce, she wants to be here for her kids. She loves her kids no mention of me. She says she is nothing special, 
She wants to be able to have dinner be friends she wants noone to love her or care for her. She doesn't want to goto councilling because she wants to keep her feelings in so she doesn't hurt me more I said she cant hurt may more.


I mirrored at one point saying wow I just finally got it I have been spinning my wheels thinking I could save this Marraige. I will just completly let go and you do what you need to do?
Questions that she didnt answer:
Do you want a divorce?
Would you be happier if I abandoned you?
Do you not want me to hang in there for you?

In the end I said i get it, i understand more about affairs and relationships than I ever did. And all our actions affect everyone (she wants to live in her delusion that her actions only affect her)
I told her I will not file divorce because it is not what I want, so if she wants it she can file again and i will sign the paper.

She fears I will be vindictive, her need to be free from being a teen mom. 
I have directly stated to her she is losing me. 

I gave several options to work this out.

i am pushing and being more firm in all my statements

Whats to lose I'll hang in a bit longer.

However I am really thinking of a detailed seperation agreement and presenting it to her.


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## turnera

Hang in, if you can. She needs time to think through this. You may, however, want to work out a detailed sheet on what her life would be like without your money.


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## disbelief

The money thing doesn't work so well she can actually make more than me, I will be going back to school soon but I still have a full time income she did the taxes she finally realized or I think she did that our pay is mostly equal since it was her idea to evenly spit the return before that she wanted more.
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## disbelief

So I get the divorce busters newsletter and the point of todays subject is not letting a new approach have enough time to work. I have only really been responding in a more alpha way for a week maybe two now I suppose in the grand scheme of things that's not a long time for her to respond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Peeling the layers ............the W revealed one of her marital misperceptions, apparently she thought I was embarrassed by her and didn't want to take her out. When in reality she would often say no to going out and my asking. " are you sure" meant I didn't want her with me. 
She said a few other innaccurate things and I said nice rewriting of the history, I remained calm and confident stood my ground and was very clear that it was her misperception and she should have spoken up.
Let's see what happens next.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Does she have Toxic Shame?


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## disbelief

I don't know, can you elaborate on that also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Hmm just found an article. Google my friend! It is a possibility. What does one do about that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

what article?


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## 8yearscheating

Like I told you she is feeling deep shame and guilt and can't understand why you want her. You siad you were 180 which won't show her you are still very interested in her. Tell her you will take her out for a special night (don't ask, tell) and that she has to dress up in her finest. You do the same. Buy her flowers. Tell ehr when you get to the restaurant and then someplace for dancing that you want to woo her and her you to rekindle the flame and that you lover her very much. I think you'll be very surprised at her reaction.

If it doesn't work out, let her know you will be waiting but not putting pressure on her to return.


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## turnera

Well, if you look at the signs of toxic shame and she fits them, I'd see if I could find a way to bring it up to her. See what she thinks. It's not something you get rid of easily; it's ingrained into who you are. Believe me.

Healing The Shame That Binds You is a good primer on the subject; maybe you could get her to read it, so she can see that she can get help for it and learn to be happy with herself.


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## disbelief

Good idea 8 I think a comedy night next friday.
the article was one of the first couple that came up in a google search
thanks turnera no matter what her A was wrong but this psychology stuff is scary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm a psychology-based advice giver. 

I believe that it's imperative to understand psychology, because it literally drives us every single day. The more you learn about your partner's psychology, the better you can connect with them, deal with them, please them, and anticipate behavior.


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## disbelief

I agree, I was always turned off by psychology was more of a trauma guy, but I need a new career and my interest is being peaked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So I would say my W is developing a pattern of good. Grumpy be nice time to leave again. Yay, I am kind of venting. Conversation yesterday over M issues led to A issues and recovery, she just doesn't comprehend how its possible, she has not educated herself.

In the course of. Marriage iss u talk she absolved me from any possible wrong I may have done.

Of course she had quite the temper last night and this AM. She brought up moving out I said go. Today a conversation began and it just fell the right way, ,,,,,she said what I am not doing anything and I said exactly and that's the problem.

I believ I now have a choice of actions throw in the towell or just take actions to affext this M without her agreement. Such as surprise date.
Or scheduled affair recovery weekend.

Uggh fed up rt now not feeling well end of school vacation frustration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Yeah after this last conversation I don't think there will be anyway to avoid a seperation. I will let her do the leg work she's all a mess again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Does she have access to a plan? Some people need exact steps.


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## disbelief

A recovery plan? No she is trying to do it on her own. So when she starts talking I let her. I think she maybe starting to realize she needs help. She does not completly shout out no at my options now like a BAN weekend. She says she doesn't want to told her to considerate before we tell children we are seperating. She is now taking all the blame for everything so she figures if she goes away eliminating the problemed person will make it all better.

So in short she has no plan, I have one in my head MC, a weekend session. Date nights transparency. She just shuts down. I have to do the opposite if I yell and scream I don't want transparency she will prob give it.

She needs a real good IC. AND antidepressants.
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## 8yearscheating

I agree she neds IC and anti depressants will allow her to start considering options to R as opposed from running away. Dothat surprise date soonest.


----------



## disbelief

She hates surprises it will prob make her mad oh well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Don't make it surprise then. Just don't take no for an answer!


----------



## disbelief

Planning it 8 ...........thanks

So its Easter OM lives rt next door to my parents there's a trigger W worked so didn't attend. I don't think I want to visit my parents for a long while they can come to my house.

W and I talk she still has it in her head that I am berating her in front of the kids and ripping her down I guess defaming her to everyone I see. More so I think is her concern with the kids.

So I say What sense would it make for me to do that when I want the opposite to save this M? What do you really think I am doing?

I got: I don't know but you are doing something?

Insightful huh.
I would have to be a supe idiot to speak badly of her in front of my children, one of my kids tells all to anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Just ignore her. She is doing this to 'get' something. On top, winning, not having to admit wrongness...something. 

Figure it out.


----------



## disbelief

You mean doing it to get an upper hand or upset me? 
Maybe quite honestly when she says things like that she looks scared and lost.
she no longer upsets me with that stuff all my responses remain calm and logical. It is a matter of determining where my tolerance ends
I don't know does one set a cut off date and say yup im done.
there's the idea thag slow is faster to heal from infidelity.
maybe I give it 8 months maybe a year maybe I goto the courthouse this week.

I will figure it out one way or another
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

I haven't read your whole thread, so my comments might not be appropriate. She is still with you. This is good but difficult. She has broken off contact, Good. She is addicted to the feelings and is in withdrawal. Stay calm and positive. Help her work her way out of this. She has to remain NC at this point. Any physical contact between the two of you? Any of her friends helping you by offering her support for your marriage? How about her family?


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## turnera

No, I think she's subconsciously doing it. There's an amazing book called Emotional Alchemy that talks about how we 'wire' our brains for what works for us as kids, when we have no power, and how that wiring is the strongest, fastest connections once we're adults. In other words, we keep using what worked for us, without even knowing it. Even when it's no longer appropriate. If you can get a little more insight into what makes her tick, it will help you find a workable solution.


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## disbelief

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I haven't read your whole thread, so my comments might not be appropriate. She is still with you. This is good but difficult. She has broken off contact, Good. She is addicted to the feelings and is in withdrawal. Stay calm and positive. Help her work her way out of this. She has to remain NC at this point. Any physical contact between the two of you? Any of her friends helping you by offering her support for your marriage? How about her family?


I think we are beyond most of that I have my doubts about true no contact but even if I push transparency there 1000 different apps for communication
she talks to her sis and I don't even think they talk about it she's trying to fix it without help. I told her that wont work.
I am learning alot working on me she thinks she putting forth an effort I said NOT. Because that is my perception
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> No, I think she's subconsciously doing it. There's an amazing book called Emotional Alchemy that talks about how we 'wire' our brains for what works for us as kids, when we have no power, and how that wiring is the strongest, fastest connections once we're adults. In other words, we keep using what worked for us, without even knowing it. Even when it's no longer appropriate. If you can get a little more insight into what makes her tick, it will help you find a workable solution.


Sound a little bit like the info in the book Getting The Love you want
That makes sense about her because her mom berated insulted went on about her dad after their Divorce my W was around 4. Step dad was the affair partner, oh yeah they r divorced now also mom had another affair.
Mom also disappeared for. X amount of time around divorce. W has best relationship with step dad out of all three.
Maybe this will end in divorce maybe not, either way I want to resolve the issues because I have to many kids and her unresolved issues will affect all of them. .......then grand kids

Maybe the something different is my not waiting for her to do stuff with the kids not asking her for really anything standing my ground on just about every issue she comes up with big small R or not. I was the NICE GUY. Yes dear I don't care that's fine and all that. Read the book it fits me so maybe her something different was my changes.

Long response for: I will check out that book, thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I think you're heading in the right direction. Mr Nice Guy never works. Women hate those men.

My DD20 has a 'list' of the kind of guy she'll date. This guy...
cannot be needy, whiny, or clingy
cannot be abusive
cannot be a guitar player (exclusively guitar) (long story, lol)
cannot be too quiet
cannot be a jock

I forget the rest, lol. She's been single for a year and a half, despite plenty of opportunities. She just realized quite young that life's too short to waste it with someone you know you're going to end up hating.


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## disbelief

MNG may not work if fully applied I am thinking but it made me realize some areas of me that needed change, like decision making and not always giving into her.

I hate that they were stupid enough to have an A and no matter how it ends up there's a wrench in my family life.
kids love mom she really never ticked me off until this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

No, I meant BEING a Nice Guy won't work.


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> No, I meant BEING a Nice Guy won't work.


LOL, ..........perception...........

Well its either the last supper or the way to a mans heart or she just decided to cook for the first time in 2-3 weeks
Her mood is certainly better when she hasn't been up for 24 hours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Shes suspicious of my behavior because apparently I am doing things I have never done before. While there are a few of those things. Most of it is just doing with my kids what I have wanted to and not waiting on her or agreeing when she wouldn't want to take them to something. 
If someone doesn't change after this type of thing in life then they must end up doing themselves a disservice. I would not want to be stuck, and perhaps thag is part of why I post as much as I do, gladly accepting input of all types how else can one step outside there own little fish bowl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Hey disbelief! 

Have you done anything to allay her suspicions about your changed behavior? Even though I never had infidelity to deal with my wife was also suspicious or my positive changes. I think she was always waiting for me to backslide and revert to the old me. I do have minor setbacks but recover fast back into my new habits. 

Are you being consistent in your actions towards her and do they actions match your words?

I think you need to start pushing (gently) her safety envelope she has around her. Start having those hard conversations about what you want and what you want for her as well. 

You seem like a decent guy disbelief - hang in there - but start pushing!



disbelief said:


> Shes suspicious of my behavior because apparently I am doing things I have never done before. While there are a few of those things. Most of it is just doing with my kids what I have wanted to and not waiting on her or agreeing when she wouldn't want to take them to something.
> If someone doesn't change after this type of thing in life then they must end up doing themselves a disservice. I would not want to be stuck, and perhaps thag is part of why I post as much as I do, gladly accepting input of all types how else can one step outside there own little fish bowl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Do you know how to allay her suspicions? 

TALK!


----------



## disbelief

Thanks we talked and yelled and argued that was fun .....NOT.

Argued because I 1000% disagreed that she was going to go open her own phone line because I had yet to turn on a phone for our son. My mistake because I did not think we had agreed. I firmly stood my ground said repeatedly she does that she is adding a layer of secrecy she says she has no secrets, yeah threw the affair rt in her face said trust wouldn't be an issue if she hadn't F****d my best friend! She walked away came back when I stood my ground and said not done talking. 
I strongly reinforced my desire to fix all this and that it is all possible. She persisted with opening her own account I stood my ground said i would not live with secrecy and if i want to look at the phone lines if she has nothing to hide it shouldnt be a problem.
Took the fine if you are going to open your own phone line you can move out to the next level.
I got her a bag she started packing. She said i need another I said I will get it.
I asked do you really want a divorce still no answer. I called her on always avoiding conflict and that being part of the reason why we were here.
I got some validation when she said I never neglected her.

I clarified......Not : berating, manipulating, out to get her or anything like that.

She said I was threatening her by questioning her need to divorce or something it's foggy now, I said Well you have been threatening for 6 months to move out
Other points I said
" I want to keep this marriage and family together, trust can be rebuilt, it will get worse before it gets better, I have said 1000 times I would fight for this M and I am right now, this can work because I will make it work, ....so as not to trap her:::: you do what you have to do"



Lets see what she does next

Next = a text to tell me where she is going next just now.

The Mister Nice Guy book has helped, a couple months ago I would have backed down.

I am a well adjusted person, I can get through this, as much as it has been painful the last time I learned so much in a short period of time was about 10 years ago.


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## turnera

IMO, that's what needed to happen. She needed to see you strong and unwilling to accept anything but honest and no secrecy.


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## disbelief

The scenario presented itself and played out I didn't even start the conversation. Is it time for me to close this thread and start anew in the mens club house for more "manning up guidance"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Good idea!

Did you also read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.?

Now that I think about it, I think I'm going to share my copy with my cubicle neighbor, who just got married to a woman with 2 or 3 kids. All I ever hear him do is ask her what she wants him to do, how can he help, etc. And then tell his friends here how he can't do anything he used to do, because it upsets his wife. Yikes!


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## disbelief

No NUTS yet I have a bag and a droid full of books Pdf to audio works great
So he has three step kids family counseling is my suggestion and clear guidelines my step is part of the issue
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Wow she's mad. I think she exagerrated what the son said about the phone to try to get me to agree to it. Upset mom crying little one yay what a sunshiny day though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

So what if she's crying? She is manipulating you. You need strength, ok?

Nothing wrong with talking to her about it, but be honest with her about your side. Explain why you take the position you take.

IMO, you need to do more of that.

Yeah, I know about my cubicle neighbor. I am trying to figure out a way to politely suggest stuff without interfering, as we're not really friends, just coworkers.


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## turnera

How old is your son, again?


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## 8yearscheating

I take it she didn't leave. I would tell her separation WILL be followed by divorce as will any attempts to increase her "privacy" which to you means increase her secrecy in hiding things from you like the separate phone. That is a priviledge that comes after healing and R. She is pushing the boundaries with no resolution to what has happened. Tell her that you cannot live with her just being there and living with you while living a separate life. It has to progress or end. You must push her off the fence before she uses one of these conversations to push you over the edge.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> How old is your son, again?


Stepson 20 our first 12
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well I have covered the first half of that 8. As soon as she pushed for the phone I stuck with no and that she can leave then, just the same she could have gone and gotten a second phone.
she's still here. Maybe I am confusing her. I asked her what she was doing tonight she asked if I wanted her here or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well, the 20 year old can get his own damn phone. And the 12 year old doesn't need one.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Well I have covered the first half of that 8. As soon as she pushed for the phone I stuck with no and that she can leave then, just the same she could have gone and gotten a second phone.
> she's still here. Maybe I am confusing her. I asked her what she was doing tonight she asked if I wanted her here or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Another great opportunity to state your desires: "I want you here if you care about me and love me and want to build a life together. If you don't, or won't try, I *don't* want you here. I deserve more than that."


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## disbelief

The 20 Y/o Finally picked up his own plan a couple months ago, this one was for the 12. There's no pay phones anyhwhere and he does all kinds of activities 10.00 a month its manageable and will be regulated.

Stating my desires. Must be a wavelength. I just basically said that a half hour ago. Not as smooth though. I didn't hit the don't want u here part.
What an exciting relationship day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Better luck today! It's all a work in progress, right? In fact, isn't that what life is? It's keeping stagnant that gets us in trouble.


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## disbelief

Thanks turnera, not much better today posted in the clubhouse. I confronted her not stepping up again it all hit me that I am fed up. I always had a long fuse. A letter with my needs/boundaries, told her to step up move out or. Commit and join me on this journey of recovery. Put it in a nice report folder with a draft copy of the seperation agreement. Couple more weeks shell have no excuses she can live at the seasonal place. This would all be easier if I could just hate her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

DB, I think that you can tell by my post on your other thread that I've had it with you.

SHE IS PLAYING YOU SO THAT SHE CAN BIDE HER TIME AND SHE CAN BE WITH THE OM ON HER TERMS.

So long, DB-I'm giving up on you.


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## paramore

Wow, that was kinda harsh lol, unfortunately it takes people to deal with this stuff in their own time. I am taking baby steps, I think DB is doing things in his own time, it will come


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## 8yearscheating

Paramore, he's taking a real beating on his other thread. 
Disbelief. Remember only YOU know the whole story and the best way to approach it. Give your latest moves time to sink in. Your in my thoughts. Keep me posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paramore

what is his other thread? DB, I my heart really goes out to you. I hate it when people get all vigilante, we are all individuals, and have to deal with things in our own time. I know what I should do, but we all need to bide time and deal with things on our own agenda.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

paramore said:


> what is his other thread? DB, I my heart really goes out to you. I hate it when people get all vigilante, we are all individuals, and have to deal with things in our own time. I know what I should do, but we all need to bide time and deal with things on our own agenda.


Man, do what the **** you want, to hell with everyone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Trudging through some more, gave her a letter with my requirements to work through this marriage to recovery. Told her to step up and we work on this or we seperate.
Gave her seperation papers. She got angry over wording but no other real reaction....besides increased rate of breathing while reading.

So now I will give it a few days to settle, I will file D papers if i have to, her sitting on this fence is starting to hurt to much.


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## 8yearscheating

This one Paramore
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/24730-help-keep-me-manned-up-post-ea-pa.html


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## F-102

As I said to DB on the other thread, I am mostly concerned that the kids will see this pattern of behavior from their mother, and as he said, they are also "dodging the real issues".

Yes, I admit that I was pretty harsh, and though I regret some of the words I used, the sentiment is there-DB's wayward wife seems to be biding her time until she gets all her ducks in a row, and then she will leave on HER terms. Read what I wrote on Mr. Nice Guy's most recent thread (Moving on..., in the men's clubhouse), it seems to be the same story.


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## 8yearscheating

I think disbelief went offline for a while. Look me up DB. PM me and we can swap phone numbers and talk.


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## disbelief

Wasn't offline on purpose. just had nothing to report til now. Update in the clubhouse.


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## disbelief

Well her attitude is a bit softer a day of church and family today. I am taking no stock in anything she does lets see if she talks to kids like she said about movijg out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Keep us posted. We're hanging on that cliff with you waiting for news!


----------



## disbelief

Well its on the other thread but we argued last night seems like she is fit testing me. I stood my ground but I said to much she said she would talk to the kids next weekend. She went to the bar with her sister she was suppossed to call txt if she was staying at her sisters. She didn't she just placed the straw on this camels back. Her stuff is outside with a note basically saying you want to be single here is your freedom.
I still feel like I shouldn't be doing it but I suppose it needs to be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

I'm simply amazed at the disrespect that she has shown you, her marriage, and your children. In fact, she flaunts it in your face and your children's faces. With her marriage hanging by a thread, she rubs it in your face. This is who she really is, a selfish, totally unremorseful cheater.

And to top it off, she has an enabling sister. If her sister had any decency, she wouldn't be out with your wife at some bar, but should be advising your cheating wife to work on her marriage. 

But yes, this is the straw that broke the camels back. She threw down the gauntlet. In her eyes, she is showing you that she thinks you're so weak and pathetic.


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## 8yearscheating

Remember, keep your cool and don't over react. If you need to talk after she leaves, be sure to call. If she asks for more time, give her a strict short time limit.


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## 8yearscheating

Check your other thread, I made some comments there too. Good luck D - standing right beside you! Don't let her goad you into a severe reaction. You may want to have someone on tap to come over quickly if she shows up with someone so it can't escalate and if she calls the cops you have a witness.


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## disbelief

Its the local PD If it escalates this time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Also wouldn't hang all day waiting. If she doesn't show by noon, call her and tell her she needs to come home and talk. Nothing more.


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## turnera

Good for you for packing her stuff. 

About time.


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## disbelief

She is now stirring enough to send her back to this will never work, looking for me to say no don't go. Instead she got here's a synopsis, from me to her after all her negative statements. " sorry I was wrong, you must be right that I was a fool to think there was hope for this marriage, thank you for the compliment that I think I am the perfect dad and greater than everybody else in the world. So you want and need to move out the seasonal will be ready in a couple weeks then we can talk in september. I will prepare so I can help the kids adjust when you leave even though you say they will be fine" Thats the jist of it, i noticed several statements of her looking for "no please don't go"
But all my cards are on the table. I am prepared for her to leave. Are the kids NO, deal with it if I have to. 
I will not ask her to stay I need to remeber that. She cannot answer key questions like:
You have been saying you are going to leave so why aren't you gone yet? ????????????????

All her clothes still in her truck. She's still in the house sleeping for work.
I know kick her out, she'll call the cops and say she can legally be here, because she can.


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## MEM2020

Well done. Big step for you - that you are now beginning to recognize her precipice "dance moves". 

You are thinking rationally. You cannot legally "kick her out" so don't even try. 

Who is the primary bread winner? After you answer that, I will have some specific suggestions that may help you further.




disbelief said:


> She is now stirring enough to send her back to this will never work, looking for me to say no don't go. Instead she got here's a synopsis, from me to her after all her negative statements. " sorry I was wrong, you must be right that I was a fool to think there was hope for this marriage, thank you for the compliment that I think I am the perfect dad and greater than everybody else in the world. So you want and need to move out the seasonal will be ready in a couple weeks then we can talk in september. I will prepare so I can help the kids adjust when you leave even though you say they will be fine" Thats the jist of it, i noticed several statements of her looking for "no please don't go"
> But all my cards are on the table. I am prepared for her to leave. Are the kids NO, deal with it if I have to.
> I will not ask her to stay I need to remeber that. She cannot answer key questions like:
> You have been saying you are going to leave so why aren't you gone yet? ????????????????
> 
> All her clothes still in her truck. She's still in the house sleeping for work.
> I know kick her out, she'll call the cops and say she can legally be here, because she can.


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## turnera

Does she have family nearby? If so, call them and see if they will take her. If so, pack up ALL her stuff - down to the toothbrush - and drive it over there and dump it.


----------



## disbelief

I think I am a sideline witness to the result of the permanent " fog" of extramarital affair activity. 2 Men I have met along this journey are divorcing with their STBXW acting completly irrational from money to kids and history of Relationship. Both are being denied visitation, both men have no criminal records good hardworking men. If I don't reconcile fine but if I can work to not end up like these two men that would be good. The whole thing is insane. One of the guys just called and vented to me after his STBXW had him arrested, so I am venting here turns out she did all this to her first husband. I am dumbfounded feel so bad for this guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

This is exactly why we warned you to keep a VAR or the Droid primed to record when you interact with her. This is for your own protection. 

Still praying for you and the family!

Any movement out of her from this weekends problems? or is she trying to act like it never happened?

Next stupid question - what do you and kids have planned for Mothers Day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yep. She's a heroin addict, and will anything to get what she wants. Protect yourself AND the kids. If she ever comes out of it (and you still want her by then), she will thank you for being the strong one.


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## disbelief

Powerbane said:


> This is exactly why we warned you to keep a VAR or the Droid primed to record when you interact with her. This is for your own protection.
> 
> Still praying for you and the family!
> 
> Any movement out of her from this weekends problems? or is she trying to act like it never happened?
> 
> Next stupid question - what do you and kids have planned for Mothers Day?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has mostly keeping herself in the basement. She went into cleaning mode. Things she hasn't been taking care of, she was angry at the world yesterday, only talked about schedules today. Her stuff is still in bags. Mothers day plans hmmm she was going to go somwhere with the kids that keeps changing. Sports etc. Are black orchids good .....ha....LOL.

I will have the kids do something from their hearts I am questioning mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> Yep. She's a heroin addict, and will anything to get what she wants. Protect yourself AND the kids. If she ever comes out of it (and you still want her by then), she will thank you for being the strong one.


Yeah time will tell on all that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

You do a card. A simple hallmark card. In it you thank her for being a good mother. Thats it. And keep it to one sentence. And if you sign it 'love' disbelief we will all kick your ass.



disbelief said:


> She has mostly keeping herself in the basement. She went into cleaning mode. Things she hasn't been taking care of, she was angry at the world yesterday, only talked about schedules today. Her stuff is still in bags. Mothers day plans hmmm she was going to go somwhere with the kids that keeps changing. Sports etc. Are black orchids good .....ha....LOL.
> 
> I will have the kids do something from their hearts I am questioning mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

MEM11363 said:


> You do a card. A simple hallmark card. In it you thank her for being a good mother. Thats it. And keep it to one sentence. And if you sign it 'love' disbelief we will all kick your ass.


I agree with MEM - just a simple card and that's it. If the children want to do more then let them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 8yearscheating

Hope you had a great night!


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## 8yearscheating

Dis - celebrate today as also your day. You have been a great dad and Mom to those kids and deserve two days this year!!!


----------



## Powerbane

8yearscheating said:


> Dis - celebrate today as also your day. You have been a great dad and Mom to those kids and deserve two days this year!!!


I totally agree on this one!!

Hope it all goes well disbelief!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Hope you had a great night!


Nope it got worse and into today


----------



## disbelief

Feeling like I might print up D Papers. Thought packing the bags would get her to state her position but No. MC thursday. Act between now and noon tomorrow or just ignore her until Thursday.

Don't need a dogpile, but constructive criticism from those who succesfully reconciled would be great.

She just doesn't get it.


----------



## turnera

She doesn't have to. You've let her stay there with no consequences.


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> She doesn't have to. You've let her stay there with no consequences.


Well i suppose you are right and that is my own fault. But yeah I could kick her out and then legally she can walk right back in. Hard to just do that when you have one child already upset and crying just because he overheard a conversation.

Does slow and steady ever win this race? 
I told her to decide which conversation we will have at MC seperation, Divorce or work on the marriage,I know thats not slamming the hammer down, but I continue to work on me in the meantime.

I have also heard slow is fast in affair recovery.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Not always but in the case of your wife, it probably is. Thursday is not that far. Keep your cool and remember the first visit it not going to be a breakthrough. It takes a few for her to get at all comfortable.
Follow your gut, not all the BS on here.


----------



## turnera

disbelief said:


> Does slow and steady ever win this race?


Uh, no, not usually.



> I told her to decide which conversation we will have at MC seperation, Divorce or work on the marriage,I know thats not slamming the hammer down,


Not a bad suggestion to make.


----------



## disbelief

So as my mind goes a wandering and i am no psyche guy . For all who think I don't understand I do I get the kick her out file now be harsh. But what happens when you are dealing with a personality that needs a different approach.
Take my kids for example they all do the same thing wrong, i can generalize the issue and yell at all of them but then to make each little personality understand i really need to take the time and approach them each in their own way.

Or kick a cowardly dog and it will run away but kick a junkyard dog and it will bite your leg off.

Now I would describe my W as the cowardly dog, generally low, self esteem, low self confidence, now very low self worth as well. 
She only gets aggressive like mama bear when her children or her life is threatened. And that aggressive is shields up swords out brain and logic off.

Now i have noticed that when I directly approach her question the issue with no hidden agenda and I have begun to man up and stick to my boundaries she gets less defensive. She may not be happy with what I am saying, but today for example I did that the swords stayed away and the shields down. I once again directly asked So are we done then? I got the disapproving roll of the eyes and all the disapproving body language. Doesn't body language account for like 55% of communication, then tonality and then the actual verbage. 

Pretty much thinking "out loud here"

I could be wrong she could just be cake eating but to me her body language and tonality says fear, not lying I remember the lying postures!

Well need to accomplish something today.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Yes it counts, especially with her because she is not one to talk. Good job. However, if your asking the same question repeatedly and getting the same response, stop. It's only pressure for pressure sake. Work on drawing her out by mirroring her response and then saying - I know what you mean I just don't know why you mean it. Talk to me. I need feedback and I'm not carnack the great - I can't read your mind. Use something other Carnack - she probably doesn't remember Johhny Carson holding the envelope to his head with a turban on and then answering the question that was inside without opening it!


----------



## AFEH

Disbelief, suggest you go right back to the day you discovered your wife’s EA. Then from that day write down to the best of your recollection everything that’s happened. Should only take you an hour or two.

Then review what you’ve written and write a brief summary. Then add a title called Progress.

Then see if you conclude the same things I have. 1) You ended the EA (that’s true?) 2) You have made absolutely no further progress whatsoever.

I just see that she’s playing you like a fish on a line. You know, her plan B fish.

Sorry to be blunt buddy but keep on doing the same thing and all you’re going to get is the same result.

Bob


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## turnera

I agree with Bob. As much as you love her and want her, that doesn't translate into HER wanting to Give to you. 

That's what a marriage is, and if she's just willing to coast - extra income, help around the house, whatever other reason she has for staying with you - then why would you accept that?

As for dealing with your wife, my opinion is that, for now, the ONE thing you should be expecting from her is communication. Safe communication where she tells you what she's thinking or feeling. As you said, we're each different. But the only way for you to understand how to work with her is for her to start telling you WTH is going on in her mind.

Now, that, said, I'm NOT recommending you do this for forever. Let her know that YOUR boundary is to not be in a loveless marriage. That you can't just stay there forever, hoping she'll come around. You deserve better. She NEEDS to hear that.


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## disbelief

I am pretty much on that page. I just want communication. Open honesr. Everyday that goes by I learn something about me and life. To bad my memory stinks. I pretty much don't expect her to come around. I see it as if this works it will most likely be with a seperation and lots of work, unles she gets out of where she is and actually starts answering questions and confronting herself.
She hit a trigger sunday I addressed it but she doesn't understand why its a trigger she is not comprehending. I will have legal forms to offer if it goes that way at MC. This guy is suppossed to be good he hasn't had a fair shot with us yet. 
I think at this point she should at least be able to agree to try, that is a starting point. If not then it's seperation or d papers. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Good that finding your own peace with it not working out. You can't force her to want to try and you can't force her to want to talk. You can't make up her mind. I will still stick to the tact that as long as you stick to boundaries and enforce them if she doesn't change soon or you see a serious crack in her armor, you will be done. Getting nasty about it will only make the separation and D uglier. When it comes to that do it, just do it calmly and business like. Try to get her to agree to one attorney to keep the costs from robbing you both blind. Be willing to give and take to keep it amicable. I'm on the same page as Tunera and AFEH with you accepting it may not work out and you need to be ready for that, both legally and emotionally. Just don't throw her out or be nasty about when the separation begins - don't rush it. Make sure she is comfortable when it happens to keep it amicable. Same with the terms, if she blows a gasket, talk it through, don't argue it through. On the communication front, from you've said, she bottles up and doesn't communicate. Doesn't look like she will come out of that. I hope she does just like you do.


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## 8yearscheating

Here is another site I stumbled across. Some fo it is good, some not so good.

I DELETED THE LINK - THIS WAS A SCAM BY ASHLEY MADISON WEBSITE OF THE BAN GROUP


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## disbelief

I hear everyone, my "DISBELIEF" Still holds on. My real problem at this point is that there has been no real structured work to recover and I have found so much available. At this point we need councilling to ensure we effectively communicate for the kids.

Hopless optimist I have been told, we'll see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I may have posted this before. But the folks at hopeandhealing.us have a thing where they say at least agree to try, not expecting it will work out but to try. 
From my perspective we haven't tried, well I have, she thinks she has. But she doesn't grasp it. To me as a core belief if you don't at least try using some external resources and tools then you haven't tried very hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Maybe you need a different counselor. I've heard of amazing successes with Dr Harley (or one of his kids, also therapists) over at marriagebuilders.com, for a phone session. VERY pro-marriage, and very good at holding people accountable, no free rides.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Maybe you need a different counselor. I've heard of amazing successes with Dr Harley (or one of his kids, also therapists) over at marriagebuilders.com, for a phone session. VERY pro-marriage, and very good at holding people accountable, no free rides.


This counselor is Pro marriage a new one. we have only been once together and that was pretty much a here is our story appointment, she didnt say boo. I met him on my own once. I even told her she can lead the conversation. 

She fears these things: I will want to control her every move. I will never ever trust her at all. (never like before is true). She will/ cannot be herself. She could not take the kids to the beach on her own.

Lots of irrational thoughts.


So she pushed a boundary she didnt know existed over the weekend. I addressed it /established it. It was not the OM but a jerk we both know who decided to start texting her, he has had both of our numbers for years. I confronted it/her. I explained it addressed it evidence in front of her. He texted her three times last night. She did not respond.
If anyone is going to suggest she could block his number she doesnt know how to. 

So that is what it is, no evidence of prepaid phones.

Of course I will not live like this either.


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## 8yearscheating

TO EVERYONE REGARDING MY PREVIOUS POST WITH LINK. BAN OR BEYOND AFFAIRS NETWORK I BELIEVE HAS BEEN SCAMMED BY THE ASHLEY MADISON WEBSITE. I DELETED THE LINK. THE SAME SITE WAS SENT OUT TWICE BY BAN. THE SECOND MESSGE FROM THEM ALSO LINKED TO A PAGE THAT OPENED WITH AN INTERVIEW FROM THE CEO OF ASHLEY MADISON. iF YOU COPIED THE LINK DELETE IT. THE MESSAGE IS WAY OFF BASE ON THIS SITE!


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## turnera

Doesn't know how to block someone on her phone? And you can't help her with that?

Why don't YOU get on the phone and call him and tell him to back off NOW?


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## 8yearscheating

Sorry for that disbelief. On your last message, call the carrier for your wifes cell phone (if it's only in her name she will have to do it). They can block the number for both calls and text. I would text him directly and tell him you will pull a restraining order in open court with your wife's permission if he doesn't cease and desist immediately. Copy the text and email it to yourself and print it out for proof. If you have his email address or better yet home address, send him the message. If you mail it, send it registered mail, return receipt requested. That way he has to sign for it and you have proof he got it. It would be best if your wife wrote the no contact message. Following up with return receipt mail, gives you enough proof to pull a restraining order - all you ahve to do is prnt out a list of texts from his number after the letter was received to prove he didn't stop. I would do the same with the OM - I did with my wife and her OM. My wife included in the letter it was for life and if he tried to contact her I would be immediately told and if it continued, a restraining order would be pulled for my entire family. If you want the wording, I can post it.

I agree - give it time but keep your boundaries and requirements right in front. I hope you appointment cracks the armor or better yet, creates a breakthrough. I'm praying for ya Dis.


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## disbelief

I hear ya but I am not going to block it as a measure of behavior.

I only have the phone record no actual text.

Tomorrow is MC and if she doesnt take a step to work on it then its seperation papers or divorce papers.

I am mentally preparing myself for that.


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## turnera

Well, I hate to be the one to say it, but if she's already got ANOTHER guy chasing after her, and those calls continue up to MC, she's gonna look at you and all the work involved, and look at him and all the potential 'fun' and not having to be seen as a bad person...pretty easy diagnosis what's gonna happen.


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## Indy Nial

If you think seperation or divorce papers are going to scare her - think again.

You've been such a pushover that she just wont take it seriously or be bothered. You might get an initial reaction but it can drag out for ages.


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## disbelief

Well then I should goto the couthouse first thing in the morning and get it all officialized
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

See a lawyer first and do the MC. I too was at my last thread when my last (or so I thought) MC appointment she cracked. Not to get your hopes up though. Mine didn't hang for so long.


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## disbelief

No my hopes aren't up but my feet are on the ground and my heads no longer in those clouds
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well I haven't been that hard a** and yeah the A is over but she's not done with it and like a wise man told me you will wake up one day and it will just hit you that you are done. Well it hit me. My problem staying done, no matter what this woman is part of my life I was friends with her through all my girlfriends. Its not like we met at a bar halfway through life. And me being from the side of the house that says you don't quit you never give up you don't leave your partner try your hardest give a little more. 
But the giving I now have to give is to stand my ground. To say fess up straight up or move out there's nothing stopping you.
as much as I have been hurt I have no desire to hurt this woman. She looks and acts so broken right now. But a now year of lies since supposedly the EA. Began. 
I have to muster the strength to stick to my guns.
I don't know I can do it.
I hope others can act more wisely.
I hope by some divine intervention my W figures out fixing this is worth more than ripping the unsuspecting childrens hearts out. (I know they have a clue)

Done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

You can’t see anything but trees when you’re in the middle of the forest and it can be dark in there, that’s all you can see is trees, scant details in the dark. To see the forest you go up on a mountain and look down, it’s then you get ALL the details and the BIG picture.

While you’re actually living with your wife the 180 helps you at least see the details and the big picture even if as yet you don’t understand them and what they mean to you. I think the only way you get to see and understand it all is during separation and low contact, kids and finances. And even them it takes time.

If you still have love for your wife then I recommend a formal separation of a defined period, 6 months or a year. Keep to it, the low contact, and see how you feel at the end of that time.

Bob


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## Powerbane

Good luck today!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Good luck Dis. Stick to uour requirements and boundaries for R. Your wife is hurting but the only path from that is for her to start working on it with you. If you read my new thread in the Men's Clubhouse titled MAN up doesn't mean being abusive, I think you'll see what I mean. It has to tempered with an understanding of the WS or you will drive her away.

I know you'll make the right choices. Keep your temper in check. Don't play mind games. Stay your course in what you need.

Good luck today. I'm praying for the best for both of you...HARD!!!!

Oh and give yourself ONE HUGE ATTABOY for sticking it out. You are a better man than the 75% who just throw in the towel. As the priest told my wife - go thank god for the exceptional man you have to have stayed with you. You are also exceptional.


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## disbelief

She opened up and talked but she doesn't get the transparency thing and why I should care when she's texting Om. She thinks its just a control thing. She continues to seperate councillor agrees. Called her out on a suspicion presented the proof. A lie. So we are going to seperate, as of the moment. 
The councillor asked if she wants a divorce she says well I don't want to be married right now well do you want a divorce....................she won't answer it..................What is that.

She doesn't want to face herself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I hate to say it Dis, she hasn't moved an iota in her thinking. Completely up to you. I know you still love her. Personally I'd execute the separation agreement immediately after you've seen a lawyer to make sure it's legal. Make sure it includes child support, child insurance, 1/2 the mortgage and home upkeep and all of the other expenses you think you will incur. Visitation/custody and a payment schedule and estimated amount of the items I listed. Also include an end date at which time you'll file. How long can you keep this up? 1 month, 2, 3? If you think it's going to go no where I'd keep it short so you can start to get on with your life. I'm not pushing divorce, but she needs to know it's coming and soon. There also needs to be rules about contact while with the kids. If she's using your summer place, I don't think restrictions on what can happen there are unreasonable either since you may want to spend time there with the kids yourself and shouldn't have to make sure no one else is there. Those are the things a lawyer can tell you if they are enforcable. If she balks at it, tell her to get her own apartment - the drive is stupid anyway. Separate credit cards, bank accounts, finances, online accounts, phone accounts...everything. If she asks why, it's because you are protecting yourself financially and legally and preparing for divorce because you can't live with the present disrespecting limbo situation she is leaving you in. She is continuing to try and control the situation by refusing transparency and stringing it out. She has to know you won't stand for it anymore. I'm sorry it didn't go differently. Time to move ahead in my mind. Get on with life and find a woman who can show you the love and respect you deserve. Just don't go looking until the D is final. Discuss with the lawyer a negotiated settlement and if he will do it and how much. You have given your all and can walk away from this with your head up knowing you did everything you could and a whole lot more. You know I wouldn't suggest this if I thought she was truly remorseful and cared about you enough that it would work out. She's too self centered and selfish.

Call me to talk anytime tomorrow. I'll be home because I'm having a roof put on my house. Don't loose your cool. You want this to stay amicable. Start thinking about what you can do if you can't afford the house.


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## disbelief

Thanks 8, Shockingly enough she opened up more later. Here's some. Self centered or not I'm not sure i don't think I judge statements well anymore. This is not the order of the talk but her statements.

I feel bad, you shouldn't be sorry. I just feel if we spend a little time apart the extra space might help the tension. I don't want to hurt you anymore i never wanted to. It's not fair that i stay here and keep torturing you like this. 

I have to face myself. Then I asked her to explain and this was her analogy.

Say you leave in the car one day you drive up over a hill going to fast but not meaning to. There's a person crossing the street and you hit and kill them how would you feel every day when you wake up? = Terrible

She said this is how she feels everyday now and she has to deal with it. 
Another shift of behavior, I mentioned an upcoming weekend to help couples communicate ( no matter what we need to communicate) and instead of just getting yelled back at no, she kindly asked when so ...........seperation it is. Legal maybe controlled with the councillor.

Thanks all for tolerating my massive thread.


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## Powerbane

Disbelief - this is actually good. She finally gave you a clue about why she won't commit. 

The analogy is the key. She hasn't forgiven herself yet. I don't think she knows how. Until she forgives herself you will get nowhere with recovery. I assume she is seeing an IC? If so then get word to the IC about that analogy and the forgiveness. I assume you have forgiven her a million times already but she can't see past her own loathing and hate for herself and what she did to the family and especially to you. 

A separation might be in order still. But talk to the IC - they might be able to get through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I agree - her IC needs to hear that.


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## F-102

Read your other thread-sounds like she's back to "looking at the floor".


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## 8yearscheating

Go read AFEH's thread Planning to leave. It has a response from someone who worked at R longer you have with happy results. May give you strength!


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Read your other thread-sounds like she's back to "looking at the floor".


on some things. shes answering more than before, but now I am also throwing out a harder question here and there.


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## disbelief

Psychology hmm is that what it all boils down to. So we said seperate. Well when you have kids in school you end up in the same house so you can both goto work. I intentionally scheduleded so I would come home as she leaves. She is to begin spending her off time at our seasonal. 
A issue was addressed last night that brought to light OM mother knows all I thought she knew this hence downward spiral. Notable comments by my W : I will never be happy again if I am someone will take it. I am guilty but only guilty of hurting you not anyone else, that is mine. I am worth nothing, I want nothing I hate myself. I didn't feed into it.
That's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Yep - stuck in self loathing and guilt. She must forgive herself to put her energy into moving forward. Forgive does not mean forget. It means saying I did it, I can do better and there's no sense beating myself to death over it. Understand why I did it and move on promising myself I won't let it happen again.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Psychology hmm is that what it all boils down to. So we said seperate. Well when you have kids in school you end up in the same house so you can both goto work. I intentionally scheduleded so I would come home as she leaves. She is to begin spending her off time at our seasonal.
> A issue was addressed last night that brought to light OM mother knows all I thought she knew this hence downward spiral. Notable comments by my W : I will never be happy again if I am someone will take it. I am guilty but only guilty of hurting you not anyone else, that is mine. I am worth nothing, I want nothing I hate myself. I didn't feed into it.
> That's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, now is your opportunity to show her how the RIGHTEOUS people handle their problems.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> So, now is your opportunity to show her how the RIGHTEOUS people handle their problems.


That would be repentance and forgiveness and reconcilliation right?
Working with a tired brain here. I'm on the train she's on the roller coaster right along side it. The less I give her the more I get. I am only behaving in accordance to how I believe a seperated couple would act. We need to share info on kids, finances. 
She must not like that because I called and spoke with the kids the last hung up and she immediatly called me back and went into how I can't talk to her because I had txtd the info I needed to. I pointed out I was just acting seperated as we agreed to last week. Apparantly she doesn't remember agreeing to that.

Once again I did not feed into it. I am working schedules so we have minimal contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So the other day driving between work and a meeting I call and talk to the kids. And say bye i don't talk to the W because i had no need to. We are suppossed to be seperated/ seperating she knew when and where I was going so why do I need to speak to her right? I had texted her earlier with some schedule stuff for next week. And so within a minute of saying bye to the kids she calls me and goes into you don't / can't talk to me. I say well we are suppossed to be seperated so i figured this is how it would work I texted u what you needed to know. She gets all upset rants rave, goes on and I end up getting this Wife to disbelief: Your right it"s all my fault i screwed everything up. I am sorry. You can go do what you want you are not responsible I am I am sorry, ..........." Dis: remained calm after she said sorry several different ways. I calmly said apology accepted. (maybe i was to easy) W: Thats just what you were waiting for wasn't it.
Somehow she did not remember me agreeing or her saying she definitly wanted a seperation a week ago.

Now mind you she is not the type that says sorry. She does't say sorry for petty things. She has not so emphatically said sorry throughout all this.

Now last night she went into insulting herself and saying she absolutley wants a seperation.

So I am following the controlled seperation agreement idea by Lee Raffell MSW. Which details contact via an agreement/ contract with each other and agreeing not to seek divorce during the contract. I have her book Should i stay or Should I Go I Plan to plow through this weekend. 
It is still only a quasi seperation, with her sleeping here between shifts and at the seasonal now on her off days.
I am OK like this for now. MC this week. I am finding my old self through all of this also.

So there is still much to be done.


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## disbelief

Working a new seperation agreemenr Controlled seperation under the guidelines of Lee Raffel MSW, SHould I Stay Or Should I go. MC Thurs again. W progressed to leaving work and right out to the seasonal. I have made no initial contact. All has been by her, with her making small talk tied into troubleshooting things with the seasonal. Gave her the book on CS so we would be on the same page Thurs. Boy did she go from really good mood to upset and crying. Hmmm!?
Well I guess if we get to the point of repairing this no better place for me to be than secure with myself again. 
There was no excuse for her A. But we certainly lost something maybe several things over the years. Pesky hindsight!


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## disbelief

The plan is to seperate, agreement made up discussed at MC. On That note why does a woman cry and get angry when you agree to give her what she wants ie:seperation?
The more I agree on seperation, display my confidence the more time we have limited contact = She calls and texts me more. She picks up son this morning and is flirty with me and very engaging with me. 
So yeah seperation. 5 kids .........there's still alot of interaction.


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## Eli-Zor

Reality is sinking in. When you separate treat it as such , she may be the mother of your children she is not your friend, no idle chit chat , deal with her like you would a bank or a utility company. If she says anything remind her she had the opportunity to commit to and make the marriage a wonderful place to be, she chose to not work on the relationship hence she chose to be a stranger to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I'm still in the ASK her if she has changed her postion and is ready to try. Do it with the MC.


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## disbelief

She hasnt changed her position. She is completly a mental mess and denies any depression or problem.....Ah yeah ok......so most definitely the best thing I can do for myself is futher detatch and make my decisions. I just read a (well text to audio) PDF on Mid life crisis and women. I think everything they listed in the textbook MLC I have seen present feom my W. What a mess.


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## morituri

Any updates?


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## 8yearscheating

I talked to him last night. Nothing much has changed. SHe still gets very upset when he mentions seperation but is otherwise detached. SAid he'sfocusing on his kids and day to day.


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## disbelief

Ok my update is now going to be short because i typed a bunch and deleted on accident. Her tone is softer fewer arguments. She got upset when there was a conflict with MC schedule and i said i would just cancel it doesn't matter. She cries at seperation talk get mad at D talk. She is finally expressing answers to questions in conversational tone. An innocent statement from me i discovered induces feelings of guilt in her.

So inhouse seperation due to schedules. When talking about our seasonal place she slipped in a when we go ther which was a 180 from her me me me I I I . 
So I supposse it boils down to how long I want to stand.

Time appears to be my friend rt now.

MC again next week.


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## turnera

Sounds good. And I agree, most women literally live in guilt, so tread carefully.


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## Powerbane

Good to hear from you disbelief!

You're finding out that people grow and learn at different rates. Yes - time is on your side. Keep gentle pressure up on her. 

At least you're getting more response out of her now. The guilt and self loathing from her seems to be almost overwhelming to her. 

She looks like she's having a hard time forgiving herself and believing that you are open to forgiving her. 

Keep it up brother!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArmyofJuan

disbelief said:


> The plan is to seperate, agreement made up discussed at MC. On That note why does a woman cry and get angry when you agree to give her what she wants ie:seperation?


When you agree with them it make them doubt themselves. She knows that you and her want different things and expects you to argue against her. The more you fight her on things, the more she wants it.

When you agree it makes her question if she is doing the right thing. She doesn't want this to turn out better for you than for her. As a matter of fact, if you want it more than her it may cause her to back peddle and try to stop it. One of the best ways to stop a divorce is to agree to the divorce and say it's the best thing for everybody. 



> The more I agree on seperation, display my confidence the more time we have limited contact = She calls and texts me more. She picks up son this morning and is flirty with me and very engaging with me.


That's how it always go, if you pull away they come to you but if you show interests they run. They want you to play hard to get because being easy looks pathetic.


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## F-102

Dang, DB-when you said that time is on your side, I immediately thought of the Rolling Stones song titled, what else, "Time Is On My Side", and the words to it sound EXACTLY like your situation right now.

Creepy, huh?


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## disbelief

The whole sitch is creepy, anyway. If I don't mention seperation and divorce it doesn't come up ............its still emotionally frustating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

and another little update took her nine months to get the guts to get a place to stay. It's a place she can rent for a few months no contract.
Still gets mad when I mention divorce. 
Strange little trip this is.


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## 8yearscheating

This is strange. She really WANTS to move out?


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> This is strange. She really WANTS to move out?


Well put thats good for MC. The answer to So this is what you really want question is: I think this is best (or something like that) She doesnt want to be married but she doesn't want a divorce, I asked if she wanted to be single , and she responded with well I don't want to be married. But there's nothing wrong with her psychology just ask her.

I don't think she actually WANTS it I bet come July 1 when this place is available there is another reason she didn't do it.

IDK......:scratchhead:


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## 8yearscheating

Definately a question for MC along with MIllion dollar question - where do you see us in 5 years?


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## turnera

So show her you have self-worth and just pack up her stuff for her. She'll never WANT you if you don't show her you won't take HALF of her.


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## MrQuatto

I agree with Turnera here. 

Dis, how long has this runaway train been running now? The whole thread was started nearly 6 months ago because she was taking steps to move out. Seems she has been "Going" to leave for months now. I know it is hard to do but unless you do something to change the track the train is on, you will be up and down for months still. It's time to throw the switch my man, time to derail the train.

Q~


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## disbelief

Maybe I can word this so it helps someone who is where I was 6 months ago. You wake up in the aftermath of DDAY not knowing up from down not being able to process all the good guidabce given by people here on this site it all doesn't make sense. Now all these months later my post affair W whom I believe is in full midlife crisis keeps hitting the replay button on her actions so yes I have grown and learned ALOT.
I would still like to save my marriage but I cannot kee listening to her saying she has found a place. So I have started pushing the buttons this time. Changing the track as you say. She needs to woman up and face all this she wants to bury it. That will not fix the M. She needs to fix herrself and is not taking steps to do so. So she played her card and said the place was close by convenient affordable and available. So the core of my answes and my response to her, very well then let's finalize the seeration agreement if this is what you need to do then go. I say but can u imagine working through this and that it could be better on the other side. Being that she maintains moving out we are suppossed to discuss it tonight at MC. I told her last night that since she is going to move out ( she will say she is just staying someplace temporary) we need to talk to children thursday since she will be on vaction for the next week or so she can be there to deal with that aftermath. This caused anger and emotional distress in her. I ended with you do what you need to do this choice is yours. MLC standerd would probably say don't push this but with out the push I am going to be stuck in replay mode. I don't like replay, I am pushing the buttons to swigch the tracks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Good for you disbelief. I ahte to see things reach this fork in the road. Youa re right, she is not really trying to heal herself and until that happens there is no choice for yuou. You can't control her actions or her desire to begin the process of R and healing. I still hope for your sake she wakes up. Let usknow what happens at MC!


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## lordmayhem

MrQuatto said:


> I agree with Turnera here.
> 
> Dis, how long has this runaway train been running now? The whole thread was started nearly 6 months ago because she was taking steps to move out. Seems she has been "Going" to leave for months now. I know it is hard to do but unless you do something to change the track the train is on, you will be up and down for months still. It's time to throw the switch my man, time to derail the train.
> 
> Q~


:iagree:

It's become a mega thread here and it's been going on this long because he let it go on this long. And that's a hell of a long time to live in the hell of limbo.


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## disbelief

Is there a world record for threads?  see humor. I have found some healing. The whole story is not here and maybe the reality is I am only fool enough to keep posting. I know couples getting no help in a longer limbo everyone here has helped me see outside my own little box. So yes I chose to not throw her out. But at least now if we seperate and divorce it will not be from a place of angry emotions. And I am more stable to be there for my Kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well, EVERYONE can stay in limbo - it's comfortable, it's what you know, it's not dealing with the unknown.

But at the end of the day, YOU ONLY HAVE ONE LIFE.

Do you want to look back at 70 and realize that the one life God blessed you with, you threw away out of fear?


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## turnera

And I'll tell you one thing I've seen over the years: Those people who DO leave a bad marriage, even though they're afraid, think it will be horrible? Most of them come back here and say 'I can't believe I waited so long, wasted so much time, in such a toxic relationship. I'm happier now than I've ever been, I have a partner who loves and cherishes me like it should be, and my kids are better off because their parents are happy and leading them, instead of being a victim.'


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## disbelief

I am hearing you!! At this point, well in about 8 hours I will be saying something that summarizes sh*t or get off the pot. If she chooses to walk out then so be it if not then we tackle this head on now no more *****footing around. There are so many resources out there to actually work through this quite honestly I see fear in her.

I said 6 months back in december well we're approaching 7. I think in the future I can look in the mirror and say I gave it my all. 
Summer what a great time to help kids adjust to seperating parents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Let us know what happens at MC


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## F-102

She wants her independence and freedom-but she wants YOU to do the work.

I'm sticking to my guns here, DB-I'm still convinced that she wants you to decide on divorce first so that she can play the poor innocent victim in front of a judge.


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## disbelief

Gee why does the DS who wants the seperation get so angry when you agree to it and her moving out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why do you believe the words coming out of someone like that?


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## turnera

Actions, not words.


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## disbelief

Duh true Thank you for the slap in the head
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

disbelief said:


> Gee why does the DS who wants the seperation get so angry when you agree to it and her moving out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because, DB, you're not playing to her rules. She wants YOU to be the angry, vengeful one who either kicks her out or abandons her so that you will be the bad guy...

...or she wants you to be begging and pleading.


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## disbelief

Well no begging pleading she can file F that she can spend the money. Off to counciling we go whoo hoo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well that was a productive councilling session.......sorta..... she won't say she is moving out. Councillor kept saying it I swear she cringed more each time. Everyone has a theory, i truly believe she doesn't believe me ( yeah I know ...told ya so) i straight out asked her when she was moving out then, that woman cannot give a straight answer. She did most of the talking. Which was fine, it made her confront the reality that she has to tell the kids she is moving out. She didn't like that.
She responded sure when he asked if we wanted to come back. I did not respond. 
She didn't like it either when i said seperation is necessary even though I don't want it.
I am so not bothered rt now.


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## disbelief

Ooo what a look on her face when I told her it doesn't matter anymore. Psychology is interesting afterall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

You can add you've held out hope for soooo long your losing the strength to stay in fight for her. Your punch drunk from all the hits she's taken on you and can't keep taking more. You need hope and to see actions from her showing a desire to try
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Otherwise you have no choice but to protect yourself from further limbo and pain and move on with your life. It's all been in her hands for 6 months. Your taking your life back
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

She can walk beside you or stay standing there while you walk away into the future
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> She can walk beside you or stay standing there while you walk away into the future
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do like that line ........ the rest I have more or less said already I. Have been" encouraging" her to go and do what she says. Ya know you said move out so go. Or face this head on.

I have said so much more in the last couple days. But gotta go !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

wow a month since i posted here. I have been increasing intensity on her on since we have "agreed" to seperate making it real, reminding her she must talk to the kids, giving her a real seperation agreement, stickingh to my guns on the fact that she cant reconcile with the intense relationship discussion and I said well I cannot without transparency. So initially she was going to run errands and stay out for the night at her temp arrangement. I stuck to it and just calmly said fine then you are doing all that we can write up an a divorce agreement have it notarized with mediation and goto court next week. She challenged me on that. I stuck to it. 
Her normal gone for the night stuff is still here. I needed to vent so I can go have fun with the kids. Her divorce filing expired I got a copy of the dismissal when I went to the courthouse, almost filed myself. .........Don't want to spend the money. I would rather spend it on something happy for the kids.


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## F-102

"They answered my Questions with Questions,
And they sent me to stand on the brink,
Where the Sun and the Moon were as brothers,
And all that was left was to think...

...They answered my Questions with Questions
And they pointed me into the Night,
The Power that bore me left me alone,
To figure out which way was Right."

Been thinking of you, DB.


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## disbelief

Uggh it's not clicking what's that from? I went out tonight she was home she got back from a week with one child. She is spending the next few days at a different house as she explained to the kids.
I cannot control or stop her train, no matter what I do I believe she must experience all the results of her actions for herself. There is no discussing of things that will help clear her mind to let her see the harmful results of her actions. Or so it seems. I will not fight her and perhaps that is what she is looking for I have never stood in front of a moving car why would I continue here so she goes out the door ...OK
"And so it goes and so it goes and so will you soon I suppose" Billy Joel
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

It's from the song "Questions" by Manfred Mann, off their album "The Roaring Silence" (the same one "Blinded by the Light" is off of).

For some reason, it just reminds me of what emotions a person goes thru when they are betrayed by the one they least expected it from.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Uggh it's not clicking what's that from? I went out tonight she was home she got back from a week with one child. She is spending the next few days at a different house as she explained to the kids.
> I cannot control or stop her train, no matter what I do I believe she must experience all the results of her actions for herself. There is no discussing of things that will *help clear* her mind to *let her see* the harmful results of her actions. Or so it seems. I will not fight her and perhaps that is what she is looking for *I have never stood in front of a moving car* why would I continue here so she goes out the door ...OK
> "And so it goes and so it goes and so will you soon I suppose" Billy Joel
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Ready to let go and stop trying to control her yet?


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> It's from the song "Questions" by Manfred Mann, off their album "The Roaring Silence" (the same one "Blinded by the Light" is off of).
> 
> For some reason, it just reminds me of what emotions a person goes thru when they are betrayed by the one they least expected it from.


I will check it out i am bad with Titles, but reading it i knew i had heard it.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> Ready to let go and stop trying to control her yet?


I have let go at this point and some time ago it may not be evident by my posts because often it is more of a vent for me. The community here understands my family and friends not so much. Support me because I am bumming yeah.

The less I act in any way that resembles control in fact I have 180'd it over to ensuring my statements do not include control words and if they do because I do not think them out then I include a disclaimer to the effect that what I said is my idea but in the end it is up to you.

I almost filed my own papers monday. My gut which has actually servrd me true a few times keeps telling me to back off and in the back of my head keeps popping up the thought " be Still".................and I never use that phrase. So I've got time. 

Controlling her I am done with that. I will enforce my boundaries if she wants to reconcile. I will also reach my true limit and then act accordingly if need be.


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## disbelief

So my W took the kids out Thursday. While she was out I emailed her the updated version of the seperation agreement which was under the "controlled seperation" idea controlled meaning guidelines for interaction for both of us bills etc. Not me controlling her. More so we could stop repeating arguments.

Since she basically moved out July 2, 2011 I put in that it would only be fair that she contact me before coming to the marital home this really set her off. But even MC said we would not just be able to walk in on each other. 
This sent her into a crying time as well as a tiff over marital issues, she repeated again my poor ability to keep the house clean. I responded calmly with Yes we have establishe I do a lousy job with the house and.....so we have a bunch of small issues to deal with and one really big one" she stopped talking........ So she left with one child to the seasonal.

In her stack of bill I put a short note saying. I am ok with you decision to seperate. The reality is that if this were high school this would be a breakup. (recent high scholl reunion)
I think you are right that we both need some space..........few more lines of not much.

She has not acknowledged the note, I am not going to ask. I have not initiated a phone call except for the kids since I don't know when, and now I put them on to answer. 

I feel I have that unconditional Love for her but she is not stepping up to the plate and I need to shield myself from futher harm. Her baby steps are to small. I need a large act of meaning that says she wants me and this marriage. She said she would not give up her privacy( a couple weeks ago) I said well I will not be in a marriage with a wife who has to have a second secret phone and PO Box. I said: your choice.
She has issues, maybe MLC, maybe from teen pregnancy, maybe from when her mom left. I addressed it once I will again at MC I have it in my head to say how I would like to still save this M but I will not be in this M if my W does not face her demons and her issues and discover why we ended up here and take the steps to not end up here again.

The Good from the bad: Kids are getting more one on one tim with parents. I believe I have found myself again. i continue to work on me. I move foward not even concerned rt now with the outcome of the marriage. A reverend I spoke with on a bad day said work it till you cannot, Divorce will always be there waiting on the shelf.

So to all those who helped me when I was wrecked 10 Months ago. Thank you. 

If someone can refresh my memory of where the succesful reconcilliation threads are that would be great.

Side note, ran into an old girlfriend and I now completly understand how rekindles occur. I felt like I could have picked rt up with her even though we ended badly. 

My W is the one who lingers on conversations now. Gets very upset at me not noticing her trying. I offerred to cancel MC and got no I will be back for it. 

By the time she truly figures it out I might be done done done.

Divorce care says you are ready for a relationship again when you are happy and satisfied being single. 

Ok I'm done, have a good night all.


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## F-102

You're your own man again when you realize that you can get along fine on your own. Your W realizes this, and she don't like it one bit.


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## Initfortheduration

Now you're talking. You are in the control seat. Don't give it back to her.


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## disbelief

Perhaps I am, I texted her tonight to let her know the kids were with a sitter for a while she called back in about a minute. That hasn't happened in a long while. 

MC tomorrow night I have a thought in my head to say lets just meet again in a month you take the kids on your days off me on mine and then??????????
Because I am currently unsure which road I want to drive down.


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## ahhhmaaaan!

^Finally... It took you long enough. See how good it feels to take the power away from cheating spouse.


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## disbelief

Yeah too long almost 10 months since d day, almost 7 months since the major confronting on all the emails that continued. 
Could I have stood this firmly sooner probably not, as much as I focus here about her, I focus at home in the real world on my kids and house and me and everything I am learning about will help if we reconcile or if I move on. My lines in the sand will be in my pocet to drop on the ground at MC. If she does not want to do the hard work well then I will find someone who will. I am nor going to attempt to read her mind for the rest of my life. I can see now my kids will be ok. I do believe a whole family is better than divorced but I cannot change her I am not trying to control her I have released that and try to a step futher everyday. It is a process and had I tried to do so months ago it would have been fake and I don't act well.
MC tonight seperration agreement so we don't argue about bills kids and who sleeps where.

I feel more single than married. I am tempted by dating is that bad. Don't really want the hassle but that's the thought process. I know I don't need her but for the lifetime of my whole family I would choose to heal my marriage and still believe it possible but not if she cannot commit to the work and transparency.

Have a great day all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yeah, steer clear of the dating for now. Show your kids the high road, and you're not ready yet to let go. Don't do that to some other woman.


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## 8yearscheating

SOrry to hear she hasn't shifted. Call me anytime you need to.


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## disbelief

She believes she can run from this that is what I see. At least she is back to interacting with the children in a posotive way. 

I think she has been running for 20 years and I never realized it. WTF.


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## blownaway

I haven't posted much lately, but I've followed your posts since the beginning. 

It's been a wild ride so far, but I'm glad you've taken back your power and your control. While I hate that you have to endure this awful pain, I'm glad that you finally realize that you can live without her and that she's not good for you, at least not right now. She's got all kinds of issues and for a long time you were just a pawn in her game.

I completely understand the statement about her running. I also feel that my stbxh is a runner. He had some serious problems that he never really disclosed ... until it was too late. He made such an awful mess of his life, his family and his finances. Instead of dealing with it and admitting his mistakes, he just turned and ran away from the destruction. He's still running. He's never apologized or even acknowledged what he's done. Everything he told me was a lie or, at best, a half truth. He essentially forced me to file for D and end a 15 year marriage without really knowing why. Was it all about the OW or was it more the shame over the A? Or, was it the feeling that he couldn't be strong enough to do the work to fix it? Was it the addictions with alcohol and gambling and credit card debt that he kept hidden and it just got out of hand??? What it really was, I'll just never know. He'll run from it forever. What he doesn't realize though, is that he can't run from himself. There's a reason they say, "wherever you go, there you are." It's only a matter of time before the clouds lift, he sees what he's done and he implodes. Same for your wife.

At the end of the day, your disloyal spouse is just a woman and my stbxh is just a man. No matter how serious we took the vows and how committed we were to the M, they are not worth the pain. We can no longer compromise our feelings, our sanity and our souls for them. 

I think it's a great idea for you to step back, focus completely on yourself and really figure out which road you want to take. Don't give in to the temptation to date just yet. Sit with yourself - you'll find out you're a great guy and someone you really want to be with. 

Hang in there.


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## disbelief

An update in the land of disbelief. She has moved out still unofficially official. She still only took with her the clothes she needs to survive . All other personal belongings are here. One of my daughters is a great reporter. She is a simple reason why niether one of us could be stupid out of sight of the othe while kids were around. She will quite openly tell all that goes on without a second thought all in innocence. So all this summer my W has either been working or with children with the exception of a few hours here and there. OM is reportedly committed to his M and has daily reminders of it living rt by my parents. 
My son being a mini me chose to speak to mom on speaker phone. Asking why /when she was coming home. She said nothing negative and actually stated that it was her who needed the time away from Daddy. 
My reporter daughter said how mommy said she cannot answer if she will be coming home or not.
Behavior: She gets angry when I am out having fun with the kids especially when it involves my family. 
She said don't remind me when I said why would I want to open up and talk with you while you still have to have a second phone and PO Box. It sounded like regret for the phone.
The children are reminded to express their dissatisfaction directly to her and not only to me. 
And they do, no filtering of them calling mommy to say they miss her.
They know her cell number and have my permission to not ask me first to call.
Other DS behavior. She doesn't rush rt out when dropping off the kids. alot of lingering on her part talking. The tension factor is way down.
Is living up to ones's core values wrong? I hope not because I am sticking to mine. 

These actions are all my choice, I know I can survive without her, I am not pursuing at all. I do not make first contact and my conversation revolves around "family business". 
At some point I suppose this will swing one way or the other. But for now it is summer, camping, kayaking, cookouts and beer with friends, yard and house projects, fun stuff with the kids. 
Why the heck spend thes days with lawyers and courthouses. Might even cancel next MC . 
I know 2 guys being denied the rt to see their kids during divorce rt now, at least my DS hasn't pulled that BS.

Have a great summer day all!

Splashing in the pool as I type while she sleeps at a rental before going to work. Hmmm.

Life Goes On


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## F-102

Glad to see your working on you, but most importantly, you're being a great father to the kids!


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## disbelief

So today I tell her I don't want to goto next MC she asks for a reason it is simply because I don't she gets upset......whatever. Later she calls me to talk to me not to talk to the kids, strange I think to myself, then she mentions how she would like to be able to have them stay at her rental to play maybe sleep over she doesn't have money to keep taking them everywhere. So I am debating if I should let her I could use the me time. Opinions pls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I don't understand what she is asking for.


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## 8yearscheating

Tell her you need the me time - you do! I would also be honest and say that stopping MC because you don't see any attempt on her part to deal with the issues the two of you have - so what's the point of MC? Be honest. On the kid question I would ask what she thinks your telling them.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> I don't understand what she is asking for.


She is renting a fully furnished house on a temporary basis. She wants to be able to take the kids there on her day off versus hang out wherever. She is basically completly avoiding the marital home. She will come in to use the bathroom and get this or that. But she has not gone upstairs since July 2 the last time she put the kids to bed in our house. The majority of her belongings are still here. 
All her other off days have been at our seasonal. But her upcoming schedule will make it unreasonable to make that long drive.
She straight out said in her old normal self voice that she is not looking to make it their knew home or anything. She just wants to be able to be able to relax with them. 

So I guess a better stated question is. Do I have any grounds to say no don't bring them there? 
Should I tell her not to?
We haven't had the conversation. She has hinted. She is seeking my permission.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Glad to see your working on you, but most importantly, you're being a great father to the kids!


Now you put the pressure on. My kids wanted to goto Vacation Bible School this week. It was at a wacky inconveient time. I couldn't change their minds they are going. They had a blast who knew fun, games, snacks, music. I even stayed so my youngest would.


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## disbelief

8yearscheating said:


> Tell her you need the me time - you do! I would also be honest and say that stopping MC because you don't see any attempt on her part to deal with the issues the two of you have - so what's the point of MC? Be honest. On the kid question I would ask what she thinks your telling them.


That pretty much covers it. My thought was I don't want to go because she has not attempted to take these issues head on. She hasn't accused me of telling the kids stuff. And I think I said it in an earlier post, I have little girl reporters so I stick with the high road.
Thanks
Hope things are going well on your end 8


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## turnera

You can't control your wife. You can't act like a child and say 'YOU left ME so I'm not going to acknowledge your new (if temporary) home.'

Act like the man you want her to think you are. Don't support any wayward activity on her part but, aside from that, respect her decisions if they aren't harming your children.


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> You can't control your wife. You can't act like a child and say 'YOU left ME so I'm not going to acknowledge your new (if temporary) home.'.


I know i cannot control her and I am in no way doing so I actually get annoyed when she says things like I am going to take the kids to MCdonalds.....If thats OK. Or before she "moved out" Can I use the hose to wash my truck. I was basically dumbfounded like why are you asking me for permission to wash your truck. She has issues she finally admits that.
She has not even acknowledged she has moved out. She is just "staying at this house for a while"


turnera said:


> Act like the man you want her to think you are. Don't support any wayward activity on her part but, aside from that, respect her decisions if they aren't harming your children.


As far as I know there is no more wayward activity but I have nothing to support that there is or not. I also no longer obsess over it. 
Her choice to move out and not dive back into fixing the marriage is emotionally harming the children. I am combatting that with as much posotive as I can.

Well then maybe a logical approach to the kids going there would be leaving it up to them. letting them decide if they want to visit where mom is staying maybe if sleep over. 

Thanks T


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## Eli-Zor

She left home , she decided to move and not be with the children at night time . Sure the children can go to her house but they are returned home to a house and bed they are familiar with , keep that boundary there is no need for your wife to instilled more uncertainty into them. They have a home a bedroom, a bed don't let her deceive them onto thinking they have two bedrooms . This exercise of hers is purly to support her selfish ways do not facilitate it and do not let her use the children. Your wife has an easy option , return home and work on the marriage and family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Once again, I'm taking a different approach. I know you hate the idea that she has moved out, it feels like another step toward D. As far as the kids, they need all of the time they can get with Mom especially since she she doesn't have the will to do it in the family home and can't even go up and tuck the kids in bed at night. It has to be terribly hard on them that she is not around. I can only guess her logic in her behavior but it seems like she is trying to do everything she can to make this realistic as if it were divorce. Asking permission to wash the car, can i do this or that. Can I take the kids. Not feeling like the family home is her's anymore. I don't know if she is doing this to punish herself or if she is trying on what divorce would be like or she's trying to adjust to eventual divorce. All that being said, unless she tells you why she is behaving that way, you can't force it out of her. Her reactions to stopping MC tells me she hasn't given up on R or at least, she wants to remain friends even if you D. 

As far as the kids, I guess that it feels like D to you and you hate the idea that she is pulling away. I guess you also hate the idea of "visitation" in the non-family home and would prefer it didn't happen as it is just one more step in the wrong direction - away from R. All that being said, regardless of R or not, the kids need their time with her and the best thing to do, is let her take them. I do agree it adds confusion to them because I'm sure they can't understand why Mommy isn't living at home any more and they may guess that you two are separated permanently.

If it were me, I'd be tempted to raise these questions to her. Don't you think this will confuse them and scare them into believing this is a permanent separation? Honestly, it feels that way to me and I don't like it. I want us to remain a family in our family home an this feels like we are setting up visitation like we are divorced. Is that what you want? Should I file? Why are you trying on this? Are you making any progress sorting yourself out?

It's not begging.


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## turnera

I agree with Eli AND 8years. The bottom line is that you have to LEAD your family. If she walks away from that family, so be it; then adjust and make THAT family structure work. Know your core values and live by them. If the kids get stressed out going there, tell her you don't want it and force her to file papers to get permission. Do something!


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## disbelief

I appreciate all the input. Somebody analyze this. She worked the overnight as planned she brought donuts for the kids. I asked if she wanted some time with the kids while they ate. because she was here 20 min and was going to leave. She said "not inside" so I guess not being able to sleep in the marital bed has progressed to not being able to be in the marital home.

Anybody see Larry Bilottas info on chaos kids? My w fits that.
good day all.
Oh yeah its her birthday tomorrow, here's the MLC bit she cries at the idea of getting older WTF.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Like i said, she doesn't feel it's her home or is trying to convince herself of it or at least see if she can. I would definitely confront her on that and ask why and if she is trying to convince the kids she is permanently done because that is the way they will perceive it..


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## disbelief

She would not answer why she feels its not her home. She still will not confront the issues this marriage will not die because of the A but her inability to deal with herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

I think I may have told you this before, DB, and I'll say it again, in regards to the kids.

YOU have to set the example, even in the face of stupidity.


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## disbelief

Doing the best I can 102. I have yet to compromise my integrity. 
And staying the course of the high road. The kids know its her birthday and creative little girls had a list of what to do. We got it done I stayed posotive. Because I would only hurt them to say no your not going to do that, none of it was unreasonable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

A little update while I am here tonight. The kids are coping relatively well with the seperated status. I am doing all I can to keep things smooth WW is being civil about it as well. 
I continue to debate my true desire to fix this or not. At the least if we finally divorce it will not be at the height of terrible emotions and anger. 
We had MC monday night all the talk was Seperation I finally got bored and fed up and when it fit in twisted the whole session onto her and her issues just by asking a question at which point she open the verbal flood gates. I brought a whole bit of her life history into it. 
MC asked if we wanted to reschedule, I wait till she responds and she did so immediately with a sure. Now in counseling she says she doesnt want to be married answers the do you want a divorce question with "I don't have the money to file". Now at the end of the week she will be paying 400.00 to have a hitch put on her vehicle. She has nothing to tow.

She lingers longer every time she drops off the kids. I go about my business. Borderline on ignoring her. I very confidently told her this AM about a couple houses in town she could afford in the best interest of the kids to be able to spend time with mom during the school year. She says she cant afford it. Funny she was going to be able to afford this (hmmm wow) 8 months ago. 

I think she added a steel cage to her brick wall after the dday and confronting S*** hit the fan. It seems as though she is confuused when she flips out and I just remain calm. 

Taking the high ground staying the course being encouraged and held accountable from different mature male friends that I have gained along this path, church friends at that, there's bumping into faith.

In the end all I have learned will only improve my personal relationships with other people in my life, divorce or not. 

I would rather continue to see MC and try to sort things out perhaps discovering some of the truths to the underlying issues rather than just divorce and be bitter and feel that pain every time I see her.

Strenth to all going through this.


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## turnera

The thing about confronting/exposure...

A cheater's initial response is shame. Maybe anger. And then to direct it on you so people will stop looking at her.

This can continue for months, years even. If that person is so ashamed they cannot look at themselves and will ruin their entire lives to keep others from looking at them as well. 

But the truth is this: If a cheater cannot approach what they did with utter honesty, and humility, and understanding, they will never move on. 

You know how you hear that we often stagnate our personalities at the age when a traumatic event happened? So that some people are perpetual 6 year olds, or 17 year olds? Cheating, IMO, is like that because, if you can't dissect what you did and move onto acceptance, regret, shame, and humility, you will be stuck being angry, defensive, and covering up for the rest of your life.

I've seen cheaters go both ways. Most never admit, and go on to live sad sad lives. All because they wouldn't admit what they did.

If I were you, I'd focus on that in MC. Not to blame her. But to help her grieve her own actions and reach help.


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## F-102

Agree with turnera, especially about the sad life in store for her.

Shall I use my famous 50 smelly cat analogy?


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## disbelief

That makes sense T. My W and I really stayed the same up until all this. And she always had a complex over being a teen mom, and lots o stuff around that. Lots of post dday comments reflected that more than me. That is why and what I twisted MC towards the other night. My battle is also that I want my kids to have a healthy mom. Her going out drinking has decreased she places all of this on herself at this point. When she cries it is hard to know what her tears are for but I know that statements in my view that seem innocent about kid time will get her upset, .
The power of the Affair is apparent at how destructive it is. She was 200% about the kids before all this. Now she is approaching that again but she can't do that seperated so I can't imagine being the one driving away after limited time with them.

102 The old lady and 50 cats in a stinky apartment? Been in those ...........yuck!

Thanks for the input.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Here's one for you disbelief. A hell of a session at MC tonight. Two things. My wife made it clear once again she cannot understand why I wanted to R with her. How could I still love her in spite of everything. She did not feel worthy of my love and devotion and desire to always be there for her. Going into her knee replacement surgery this wednesday she didn't feel worthy of the burden she was going to be. The MC flat out asked me why. I explained that there were times when I felt done, especially when she refused NC. But what got me to hold on despite her unwillingness to give me any hope was my love for her. I mentioned how torn up I was when I travelled missing her and wanting her. She said " I couldn't understand that because when you got home you weren't that close." I explained I was as close as she would let me be, that it was like trying to cuddle a porcupine - there were three in our marriage though I didn't know it and she didn't accept my love like I wanted her to. The MC jumped in and reminded her that everyhting that was a problem with me in our marriage was a lack of involvement in her life and a lack of intimacy that I craved. She rejected it at the time and only saw my angry responses to her rejection. He made it clear to her that she had to forgive herself and open up to my love and that it would help me immensely. I reinforced that on the way home. She also vocalized that she wondered how the OM was doing. I responded I would expect that, he was a friend of both of ours for more than 30 years and she had developed an attachment to him in spite of not wanting to admit it. I understood why she would wonder, I hated it, but I understood it. I also explained it was very important to be honest about those feelings - it showed she was being honest and that was more important than the feelings and gave me the opportunity to help her resist the urge to contact him. A very emotional but very revealing and helpful session.

I truly pray your wife can eventually open you the same way and I encourage you to encourage her to find forgiveness for herself. It is the biggest and hardest step for her to move forward.


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## disbelief

So really not focused on my W but Hurricane irene is rolling in she throws out a comment about maybe she will get blown off the road driving to or from work. (She calls kids every day and night)

Now, KARMA. ..................A TREE FELL ON HER TRUCK!. Yup the post affair MLC, truck.

Funny thing is if she was at home...........no trees have fallen here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Well, I hope she's okay and wasn't hurt, but at the same time-Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!!!

Good to hear from you again, DB.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Well, I hope she's okay and wasn't hurt, but at the same time-Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!!!
> 
> Good to hear from you again, DB.


She wasn't hurt she woke up and looked outside and it was on her truck. No trees fell here and we still have power she doesnt.

Karma only hit lightly, it was a small tree. The pic she sent me looked like there would be good damage. (guess my dark side is showing) But she has had more damage to this vehicle in 6 months than we had in 8 years to the mini van.

Hey i am safe in my house with my kids and ahhh I don't miss her. Hmmm what shall I do with that.


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> Hey i am safe in my house with my kids and ahhh I don't miss her. Hmmm what shall I do with that.


 Revel in your new-found knowledge and wisdom and seek a better life!


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## F-102

The new truck was a symbol to her of her new life that she was so carefully planning-then reality fell on it.

Kind of a scary parallel, huh?


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## disbelief

LOL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Words from the WW tonight "when I get back from the weekend i am going to try to figure out my screwed up life"

I have made progress. She lost power and is still without it since the hurricane. She has been over to be here when the kids got on and off the bus, i caught the vibe that she was looking for me to offer for her to stay here. i acted appropriately, Brain, filter, filter= be counterinuitive ..... .....i made no offer.


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## turnera

Good for you!


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## disbelief

So when u wake up in the morning the crickets and all its oooohh dark thirty and you have a sudden thought. 
Yes this whole thing sucks and it is not what anyone wants or should have to go through but if you take care of yourself appropriately then you can learn alot about yourself.
Now in my case this morning i wooke and i realized i have addressed the underlying depression i did not know or realize i had which in turn most definetly created a negative atmosphere in my house even stated by my WW. As i have worked through this process i suddenly realized that without effort i am acting like the man i probably once was the younger me with knowledge now joking and flirting again i just recognized my teenage self in me and that was who my W had fallen in love with.
I could come up with 1000 reasons as to what changed me and realistically alot was my occupations and training that stripped away that individualism. Is that an excuse no. Topping it off a carreer ending injury of the job i loved changing the day to day in the household.

I also think to myself why didnt my friends my family my w point this out really address the change i just realized probably the same reason i saw nothing going wrong in the M I said I was Ok I did not realize I was not. Now this phase i am describing was largely over the last 3-6 years post injury. With elements of ( to simplify) PTSD type behavior prior to that. I was never mean to her but i behaved as i saw modeled growing up that model is still suffering in his marriage and recently advised me to make a decision or a change soon not in 30 years from now.
I am working those changes it is most definitely a process. Rome was not built in a day wherever my M ends up will most like be based on the course i decide to stay for she is reacting off of my behavior for as better men than me have said it is our job for the family to be the rock.
But i have detatched i dont yearn for her to call i can talk about it without pain. I have hit this thing from all sides for healing and learning and i continue and so long as i end up a betterman and keep my kids emotionally and physically healthy then that is my primary goal. If she decides to continue to self destruct vs fix herself that is her choice and it will carry its own consequences.
I offer no pity when she cries about her situation. I offer the questions: what would you like to do about that? How would you like to fix that? 
The only approval i seek from her involves the children. To make decisions about them alone would only be appropriate if she was ignoring them and she is not.

Ok end of that thought process for now hows that for a early morning revalation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I might even share a proofread version of that with the WW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

disbelief said:


> I might even share a proofread version of that with the WW.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good job. And it sounds like she might be ready to hear it. 

Good luck and prayers for a happy ending for your family.


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## 8yearscheating

Some serious deep self introspection. Good on you dis. Your health is improving! Damn the torpedoes.......


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## disbelief

So i am not a devoutly religous man but i was dropping some divorcecare fliers off at my church today from the church that runs it and had to get the Fathers approval to put them out he called me on it and we sat an talked for a while gave him the nuts and bolts of the story. He was very supportive and commended me on my efforts and shocked me when he called me a hero for standing.
Thought I would share a positive moment.

I'm no hero just another average guy.


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## Chaparral

disbelief said:


> So i am not a devoutly religous man but i was dropping some divorcecare fliers off at my church today from the church that runs it and had to get the Fathers approval to put them out he called me on it and we sat an talked for a while gave him the nuts and bolts of the story. He was very supportive and commended me on my efforts and shocked me when he called me a hero for standing.
> Thought I would share a positive moment.
> 
> I'm no hero just another average guy.


Most heroes are average guys. It just that most guys are lucky enough that they don't end up in bad situations.


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## disbelief

Psychology is a strange thing.

A new behavior. She is more often pleasant than not on the phone. She always makes first contact on any day there is contact. 4 kids going dark is nearly impossible.

She actually came into the house today sat and had a meal (huge shock)
I feel like I am in a bad social experiment.


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## turnera

What is your goal?


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## disbelief

To reconcile, but not at any cost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then maybe it's time to drop a hint now and again, of that goal. 'You know, all it would take would be for you to realize what I need, for me to consider reconciliation...'


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## turnera

That said, if you've decided to go dark, go dark. Pick one or the other. If you're supposed to be dark - moving on - don't be inviting her in for dinner. Makes you look too wishy washy.


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## F-102

Don't want to get your hopes up, DB, but perhaps she may be considering R?


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## disbelief

turnera said:


> That said, if you've decided to go dark, go dark. Pick one or the other. If you're supposed to be dark - moving on - don't be inviting her in for dinner. Makes you look too wishy washy.


It's nearly impossible for me to be dark so I remain limited contact. With 4 kids 12 and under the beginning of the school year and new activities some form of contact is unavoidable. 
The dinner thing was not an invite. We were both headed back to town she was suppossed to take the kids out to eat she even called and asked if i wanted anything. Then they ended up picking up pizza.
I basically told her to sit down and eat with the kids. I did not ask for a change i told her.
I can see some of my real wife behaviors returning. However i am not getting my hopes up and I go about my daily busines expecting nothing from her. No pursuing, even if we were divorced rt now I would be doing the same day to day that I am now. My primary goal/job/responsibility is all that encompasses making sure my children are safe loved and secure. I have therefore chosen i suppose, to take the high road and when she comes at me with the negatives I do not feed into it I remain calm in fact it is not even an effort anymore.
(Kudos to NMMNG and Hold onto Your N.U.T.S :smthumbup

I had a work friend tell me this weekend " issed: don't get divorced my parents got divorced I am still messed up because of it and my brother is worse, i swear my parents still love each other, yeah I get it people cheat but **it happens you have those kids.........."

And on the flip i had another friend ask " hows it going......well dont wait to long if it's not working out end it and move on to a younger model half the age and hotter"

So in my nature I take in all this advice as I did almost a year ago and let it simmer. 

I may be wrong but at the moment my best course of action i feel is to just "be still" (i reserve the right to change my mind)
But that is only in the M department the rest of my life I am moving foward with. House, me, kid decisions that are not critical. I am just doing without asking her. I know I can live as a single dad.
If we must divorce, I can also see how having this seperation without action actually takes some of the tension anger and emotion out of the issues, (I learned that from the controlled seperation book)

I quite frankly would prefer to put time and effort into me and my kids vs a new relationship if this all ends in D in 10 years all my kids will be all grown up heading to college. So much could be lost focusing on a new relationship rather than focusing on the kids. 
Time is the most valuable asset. 
My kids want us together and my son proved that last night when mom was saying by with hugs and kisses to kids and he said what about daddy.

Well I did not mean to go on like that. But "after the rain" when the fog clears as it has in my mind, (there is a patch here and there) it is easier to view everything objectively, logically and from a stable place.

I may have suffered a great injury but in the aftermath i am learning more and more and paying it foward. Th e things I have learned about communication have helped me with my kids as well as with adults so maybe i have lost my old marriage but i have certainly gained ( or maybe just reawakened) an old part of me.

Didn't mean to write an essay it just flowed.


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Don't want to get your hopes up, DB, but perhaps she may be considering R?


perhaps.......


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## turnera

disbelief said:


> The dinner thing was *not an invite*. We were both headed back to town she was suppossed to take the kids out to eat she even called and asked if i wanted anything. Then they ended up picking up pizza.
> I basically *told her to sit down and eat* with the kids.


Sorry, gotta call you on this one. 

You can CHOOSE to be businesslike in this. Letting her sit down in your home is meeting some of her Emotional Needs. The more ENs you meet, the less she NEEDS you back.


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## disbelief

Good call, I wasn't thinking of myself when I told her to sit I was thinking of the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Good call, I wasn't thinking of myself when I told her to sit I was thinking of the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Oops didn't know I double posted. Changes in WW: Positive tone on phone, I have to end conversations now or they linger. She came in morning to see kids off to school. I had to say by and walk away before she actually started to leave. For the longest time now she couldn't leave quick enough.

After a conversation that involved her stating if she came back it would just be the same me saying it could never be the same later that night a text saying " I really am sorry"
Today a text letting me know where she is and is everything ok "

Me LOL.

Gym time
Good day all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sounds like progress. Manning up looks good on you.


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## disbelief

Thanks turnera. 
Here's one: There were turkey vultures perched on the rentalhouse today she texted that she went outside and they started circling.
Hmmm she also txtd she hates the place.

I had no response, personally I had a decent day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

disbelief said:


> Thanks turnera.
> Here's one: There were turkey vultures perched on the rentalhouse today she texted that she went outside and they started circling.
> Hmmm she also txtd she hates the place.
> 
> I had no response, personally I had a decent day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps it's a sign unto her...

...or just that good ol' b**ch we call Karma!


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## disbelief

Makes ya wonder, of all the different country settings I have been in, open field mountains deserts. I have never been circled by vultures of any kind. Eyed from the tree line by a coyote yeah. 
I had to hold back comments, hmm a tree falls on the truck, vultures circle her , what next.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whip Morgan

Disbelief, I think you're relying to much on Mother Nature to wake up your W. I think divorce papers (which can be stopped) would do much better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## F-102

disbelief said:


> Makes ya wonder, of all the different country settings I have been in, open field mountains deserts. I have never been circled by vultures of any kind. Eyed from the tree line by a coyote yeah.
> I had to hold back comments, hmm a tree falls on the truck, vultures circle her , what next.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would say, hire a tall dude to stand outside dressed like the Grim Reaper....

But it sounds like she is from "I'm gone" to being back on the fence. But I wish I had your patience-I would have bounced her a long time ago.


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## disbelief

ROFL ROFL 102, I know a couple tall big dudes.

Maybe she is fence sitting, I have several factors to my patience Kids who miss her her improved focus on the kids. I am simply being still on divorce. 
I just find these natural occurence amusing, especially since they have never happened before in her life.
Others have stood longer for their marriages. I am not unique.
I am detatched taking care of house home and kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So yesterday she picksup the kids crying drops off kids they r crying mommy don't go, on spends the night with her the child that is bottling emotions. Told W I don't want her back if its not willingly and she doesn't get help for herself. She ended up saying what she did was wrong. 
Today she txtd asked if I wanted to go for a ride. I declined because I was busy.
I've got time I am taking care of me for a change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

disbelief said:


> So yesterday she picksup the kids crying drops off kids they r crying mommy don't go, on spends the night with her the child that is bottling emotions. Told W I don't want her back if its not willingly and she doesn't get help for herself. She ended up saying what she did was wrong.
> Today she txtd asked if I wanted to go for a ride. I declined because I was busy.
> I've got time I am taking care of me for a change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't be rude. If she's trying to make a move don't throw it back in her face. Always be kind ,civil and firm. Be cool.


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## disbelief

Thanks chapparal, I have not been rude I have been as u stated. Its good to have reminder though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

So monday she went on a rant saying that all I ever wanted was the kids and the house and a whole lot more stuff that she said. I stayed calm and quite simply said no I still want what I wanted before all this (ya know live laugh love haappy family no affair no divorce etc). Now you have a choice go a do whatever you have to do and make your move or we can quite possibly truly get to know each other as a couple and move on and work through this to the best future possible for our family and each other. There was silence on the other end of the phone. And a very gentle good bye when I said I had to go.
That is the abridge version for everyone is probably tired of my thread but I lose paper journals. 
So Tuesday we have an unplanned coffee together which leads to her talking about work, kids, her sister, etc for about a half hour or so, as she starts to turn the conversation to relationship stuff I am saved by a scheduled appointment and say gotta go ....bye. Shortly after i get a thanks for the coffee via text. She is very pleasant when we have to swap kids for their activities and then still pleasant later when she drops them off at home. She ends up staying and putting the younger ones to bed since the older one was still doing homework (torture). I would say that was the mmost positive day in a year, 
DDay anniversary in like 4 days, I need to erase that thought but it's embeded like 9-11.


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## morituri

Good job D!

By not letting her push your emotional buttons you are not giving her the reasons she wants to justify her actions. She's noticing your emotional strength which is very important for women and a key ingredient for them to be sexually attracted to men. She is starting to realize that come what may, you will be just fine and it scares her. Keep up the good work D.


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## Powerbane

Good man! Staying strong and true to your vision. 

She does need to sh!t or get off the pot eventually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

It's like the old cartoons, you know the ones where the character is in a dilemma, and then the angel and devil show up on each shoulder. She listens to the angel, and she's civil with you and you both make some progress. But every now and then, the devil gets louder, and then you get things like that call the other night. It's sad to say, but even if you do reconcile and things get better, every now and then, she's gonna wonder if she made the right choice. You may get in a fight over, oh say, someone drunk all the milk and didn't replace it, and she will have the angel and devil on her shoulder again. The angel will be telling her:"Pick your battles, and try to get past this silly one and resolve it", while the devil will tell her: "Go ahead, this is your chance to really let him have it! Go ahead and tell him that you knew you should have divorced him when you had the chance, that the OM would have been a real man about it and did the right thing, tell him that you knew it was a mistake to get back together! Victory will be yours!!!!"

Sorry, my imagination goes crazy, but I don't usually go for the clinical scenarios.


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## disbelief

So here we are two days prior to dday anniversary I feel better than I felt at this time last year. Since the above mentioned conversation she has not gotten upset with me she keeps happy tones of voice has called me several times this week for opinions on Tuesday and again today she brought up moving but she lacks addressing fixing the marriage first.
I remain guarded she told her current "landlord" she would be out by. Oct 1. She has no other arrangements I am not offerring the couch or her key back.
She needs to ask there needs to be a plan. MC Oct 5. She is saying she can't afford a 900 a month apartment can't figure that one since her income works out to more than mine and I am covering the bulk of the bills. 
A friend of mines wife walked out on him 2 him 2 weeks ago. WTF is wrong with people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whip Morgan

Disbelief, I followed your nightmare scenario from you first post, long before I registered. I have always pulled for you.

However, I feel that your spinning your wheels. I know you want to R with your wife, but I think the limbo you're in is being kept alive by you, not your wife.

Remember way back when Affaircare said stop saying she is making babysteps? Well, she certainly wasn't making babysteps. I think you're slipping into that again. I've been reading how much you've detached, and thats good. But doing the 180 and detaching is about saving your sanity and personal recovery. You're still stuck. 

I truly hoped she would turn around, but she has not. I know you want to reconcile, but you're getting nowhere with a cheating wife who doesn't want you. I wish you the best and will still follow your thread, but I think you need to work on yourself to take the last step: file. Its been long enough.


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## disbelief

I respect that whip, and I have changed alot through this. And I have revealed my story to others who say stick it out. I know they say don't stay together just for the kids and rt now we are not, we are seperated I cannot forsee the final outcome I am doing nothing that causes me futher pain. I don't post everything here and I have truly considered divorce with me taking the action
Oddly enough everytime I have hit that point something happens that says nope stick it out, I end up with three out of four kids crying for mom or something unplanned like that.
Now if there was a crystal ball to answer all this. 
I do appreciate the input.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whip Morgan

disbelief said:


> Oddly enough everytime I have hit that point something happens that says nope stick it out]


I get what you mean, disbelief. Although I disagree, I understand where you're coming from.

But the above quote from your post is another example of where I find that you're in limbo through you're own actions. And I get you thinking about your kids, I do. However, when are you going to "get it" that your wife didn't think about her children, or you?

I am a product of a marriage that dragged on too long, mostly "for the kids". It doesn't work. You're thread is very long, 70+ pages if I'm not mistaken. And its not your first thread on this. You said earlier DDay was close to a year ago.

I still believe you're spinning your wheels in the mud. I've read that you have made progress in some personal healing, which I wholeheartedly applaud. However, I feel that everytime I read an update, its almost the same exact post, over and over. 

At some point, have you asked yourself, why haven't you filed, moved on, and at some point find someone who can love and respect you the way an honest and loyal spouse should be treated? I think IC would play a big role in helping you out through that journey. You can't force your wife to go along with you, and honestly, I still suspect she is in contact with her OM, regardless of whatever bullsh*t he is feeding his wife.


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## disbelief

Whip Morgan said:


> At some point, have you asked yourself, why haven't you filed, moved on, and at some point find someone who can love and respect you the way an honest and loyal spouse should be treated? I think IC would play a big role in helping you out through that journey. You can't force your wife to go along with you, and honestly, I still suspect she is in contact with her OM, regardless of whatever bullsh*t he is feeding his wife.


I have asked myself that. I have asked that aloud with a group of respected men I meet with where we hold each other accountable. I have asked it of myself asked it of pastor asked it of a priest of a friend getting divorced of a divorced friend and a friends divorced DAD. 

Now I unwittingly and without trying hold onto a shred of hope. However I also try, yes I try to heed the advice of others even though I have failed at it early on in this dreadfully long thread. All the input I have from the above people is do what u need to, stick it out......for now but you will know when it is truly over. Let her make the D move. 
I had a 26ish female friend say to me no no dont get divorced my parents did I am all screwed up still , yeah people fight they cheat so you get over it you have those kids"

A couple male friends said end it upgrade to the younger model, so I am thinking of all of this just not stewing on it. Taking care of the day to day.
I have pretty much studied this Affair thing since it hit me I am no guru but I can see the case for immediate divorce and just being still.
Myabe you have read some of Dr Bob Huizenga's stuff, he has an article that notes 16 Practical Ways to Know if he/she is changing. She is falling in line with many of them.

Now in my W's case she claims her A was because of marital dissatisfaction. OK still no excuse but if she bottled this up for 15 years is it really going to be resolved in one.

Ill stop ranting there and maybe graduate to the seperated forum or just stop posting until something real happens. ....................
Maybe some way some how this thread will help someone who comes here.

20 years from know i will know how it all turned out.


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## Whip Morgan

disbelief said:


> I had a 26ish female friend say to me no no dont get divorced my parents did I am all screwed up still , yeah people fight they cheat so you get over it you have those kids"
> .



Honestly Disbelief, I'd ignore advice like this. I'm a product of divorce as I stated earlier - it was the best thing my parents could have done, for both themselves and me. People take divorce differently, apparently it was hard on this woman. Its only natural she wants to steer you away from the hurt that it causes. 

Unfortunately, this 26 year old completely missed the mark: the devastation and destruction was brought on by your wife - I think, considering how long this thread is and without any change from her (in my eyes) that divorcing her will help you heal and live life. She isn't remorseful or genuinely sorry, and I take that from what you post. Dis, the situation you're living in now isn't helping your children, this limbo you're in.

But I understand the aspect of hope you have. I disagree thoroughly with what you're doing, however I respect you're decision to try. Ultimately you are the one there, in your house and in your life, you're the "boots on the ground." If you feel that this is the best course of action for you,I hope for the best for you Dis!


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## turnera

Here's my take: If your goal is to get her to care about you, the best way to do that is to show her that you will not wait around indefinitely because you respect and love yourself too much to be anyone's second choice. THAT would make her sit up and take notice of you.


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## disbelief

Well a year ago tonight the bomb went off. I have gone through today just fine. So what's that make me ? Over it? I could still send a text " Happy DDay anniversary" 
Nah think I will sleep instead. 
Thanks to everyone who has tolerated and supported me I would have screwed up even more without this forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marksaysay

Disbelief, how u doin? Just wanted to stop by and tell you to just keep moving forward. It's probably the hardest thing that either of us have had to endure but we can make it. 

Stay strong and keep your eyes on God....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration

Yeah, wondering about the living arrangements now that October is here.


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## Chaparral

Don't worry about the length of the thread. There are people here who care and will give what help they can. Keep us updated when you can and good luck. 

When she says something like she did about the move don't be afraid to ask her to be more specific instead of just wondering what she's thinking. 

Obviously the biggest problem marriages have is communication between a man and a woman who are fundamentally different kinds of creatures that have different kinds of needs and basically speak two different languages.


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## disbelief

I have been straight out busy, I also feel less of a need to post vent journal etc. I Am ok on my own I will be fine either way this goes the kids well it is starting to bother them more. Although she has had alot of quality time with them she is still not here.
She has not gotten angry or ranted since the 9/20. conversation I hold my position as the rock I can now see that alot of her reactions are from fear, especially when I step back and analyze the situation. With all I have learned 
I have improveda myself and my reactions which also helps in parenting.
Livining arrangement: she moves into a apartment that is newer when this worked out she quietly said maybe if if you would want to you would be able to come over with the kids and we could start there.
There has been more joking between us verbally or via text. I have support for me from all angles and I am no longer afraid to use it. 
Her thoughts on the move is she just wants to get away, she always has but now more than ever she does have a cool idea for a small business but for me there is one big issue to resolve first. Our relaionship. MC on the 12 #she wants to go. Positivity...... a book I heard about also my stance on life now I will only let this event define a better future not a ruined life.
So thank you all for checking on me. I appreciate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

disbelief said:


> I have been straight out busy, I also feel less of a need to post vent journal etc. I Am ok on my own I will be fine either way this goes the kids well it is starting to bother them more. Although she has had alot of quality time with them she is still not here.
> She has not gotten angry or ranted since the 9/20. conversation I hold my position as the rock I can now see that alot of her reactions are from fear, especially when I step back and analyze the situation. With all I have learned
> I have improveda myself and my reactions which also helps in parenting.
> Livining arrangement: she moves into a apartment that is newer when this worked out she quietly said maybe if if you would want to you would be able to come over with the kids and we could start there.
> There has been more joking between us verbally or via text. I have support for me from all angles and I am no longer afraid to use it.
> Her thoughts on the move is she just wants to get away, she always has but now more than ever she does have a cool idea for a small business but for me there is one big issue to resolve first. Our relaionship. MC on the 12 #she wants to go. Positivity...... a book I heard about also my stance on life now *I will only let this event define a better future not a ruined life.*
> So thank you all for checking on me. I appreciate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Way to be Disbelief. That is so very important.


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## disbelief

So through all this "stuff" a friend of mine ends up in the same boat I am able to put in a nutshell all the advice i have been given and he begins to see rapid results.

My W....... shocking we are at two plus weeks of her not being angry over anything. 
As much as these situations suck I am fortunate in the regard that I have the kids full time, she is not willing to futher disrupt their lives. She is remaining active with them. I received a thank you for bringing them to her when schedules changed last minute last night instead of being like so many I know with restraining orders and no hope of even having civil coparenting.
I have chosen a method that some disagree with and only the longterm will prove the results or lack there of. Rt now I expect nothing from her or for our M. But I can see that the more I remain civil and kind the more fruitful the results.
Hows the ole saying go " you will attract more bees with honey"
I have received tons of advice and educated myself far beyond this forum. One thing that sticks in my head and i suppose it falls into Plan A is creating the emotion you want to get the result you want.
I could so easily tick her off all the time but in the end that would affect the kids and I put their well being above all. Now the way i have chosen to handle all this the children are not depressed, not angry, we are having some additional say "fits" but it is hard to pin that on the sitch or "I dont like my new teacher" 
Yeah i planned on typing none of that.


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## turnera

I'm proud of you. And your friend is so luckly to have you there!


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## disbelief

Thanks T, I have made a leap of progress I am at the same exact location as I was last year columbus day weekend with my kids when she was working and shrapnel was still flying. Rt now I feel fine my kids and I are having fun, so the rest of it what will be will be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well maybe its being a year out maybe it was the MC session today that reveals she just cannot face herself. We have been amicably getting along for almost 3 weeks spent 24 hours together and didn't fight. 
A year ago she was the alien rebellious teenager acting ww. Now her behavior is submissive asking permission for everything she wants to do with the kids, can I, is it alright if I, well I don't want to upset you or anyone. After MC today we went bday shopping for the kids. Got along fiine except she was very subdued later I sent an email with a statement regarding todays MC. She responded with. 

"I only wish you knew how sorry I was"

Now if she can only face those demons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Interesting.


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## disbelief

Wow it feels more like 3 months rather than 22 days since I posted here. I look at the new posts and feel bad for all those going down this road wish I could be that happy naive young innocent husband early in marriage but no time machine here.
so for all those screen names that consistently helped me and are helping others. You are all great and my head would still be stuck someplace around dday if I hadn't of found TAM.
that's what was on my mind tonight...... A Thank you to all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

How are things going?


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## disbelief

No significant changes. She is in her own place a month to month no contract basis. She avoids anything that would force her to sign a contract. She got angry because I said let's split this cd account we have, one less thing to argue over. She rebutted again a week later with " Your r the one who wanted to split it".
So what is really going on in her head .... dunno. I think I could turn it either direction.
I am rescheduling MC until after thanksgiving since we r supposed to go away all week with the kids and she has a family gathering that Sunday she asked me to go to. MC usually turns her grouchy for a while that whole facing reality.
I am just remaining true to myself, not compromising my values, not backing down when she tries to blame shift.

I have my days where I want to file then I don't care my house my kids are so busy its nuts. 

There is less tension between us we can have normal conversations. Parenting is begining to take place again without temsion at least from my perspective.

She asks if she can go out with her sister ( wonder what she would do if I said no) she let's me know what she is doing on the flip, I only let her know what I am doing with the kids she hasn't earned anything else back yet.

I am trying to use those bettermen tools and all I do wil make a better me no matter what. I need the relationship with my kids to be at its best. With a woman will happen when it is right.
So this marital future is still yet to be determined.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

bettermen.org?

Do you like it? I haven't heard anyone else who's used it.


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## Chaparral

turnera said:


> bettermen.org?
> 
> Do you like it? I haven't heard anyone else who's used it.


If anyone knows about it clue Hopeeternal in on it.


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## turnera

Well, based on the book and the website, it seems like the perfect place for men to learn from.


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## F-102

Hmmm...maybe I'll take a look.


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## disbelief

I discovered it up in the mens clubhouse. Hold onto your N.U.T.S. and NMMNG No More Mr Nice Guy. Lots of good information. Especially if one is the type that never really developed a effective way of setting boundaries. Good stuff, lots of things to learn out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Thanks, DB, but even though my M has no "issues" at the moment, I'll keep some things in mind. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty... or something along those lines.


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## disbelief

Happy turkey day people. Decided to spend it just the Ww and all 5 kids away from home. So me and the W have had almost 48 hours in the same place. 
Tension from my view is less. She has not mentioned divorce. She gets extremly defensive green eyed monster type if I mention dixcussions with other females, I continue to uphold my vows since that maintains my integrity and I am therby true to myself.
Key statements by her: I will deal with this the way I need to ( drinking)
Its not you its me ( Referring to what is it)
I don't know why you would still want to be with me or love me ( I went down the direct route of ya know what no matter what part of me will always love you love is a choice marriage is a choice how we finish our lifes out is a choice).
Nothing shocking from her nothing stated or noticed I haven't expected

Enjoy turkey day everyone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Great to hear from you again, DB.

It sounds like she may be coming to terms with everything,and is even coming around to taking ownership.


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## disbelief

And when you start to see the option of D might be the better choice. Even though WW has not brought up D in months, you know you are personally in a more stable place. The WW she's a mess and not doing anything real about it. Psychology whoda thunk it, I never did. Needed to vent a bit is all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

What is your and WW status right now? Basically living seperate lives? Sounds like boat is sinking and you are to abandon ship instead of continuing to bail. The more time that passes and the hurt starts to healand the focus turns on the one who has been dealing out the blows.


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## disbelief

We are seperated. Barely living seperate lives, the kids keep us in contact almost daily. She has opened up a little. Which has shown she is outright scared to face herself. She would prefer to run away to a bottle to another place off of this planet etc. So she continues to try to bury it. I just started tough loving it again yesterday she presented a statement of she would like to ignore everything and I responded with then you will be stuck and that was just the begining.
I have done a lot of personal healing. She has not. Just as she avoided conflict throughout our M (which I didn't recognize) she is trying to go on avoiding. 
At some point she is going to breakdown. One cannot bear the load she is holding within herself.MC in 2 weeks its been a while I am going prepared and arranged for an extended session to be available. 

My thoughts are less about saving this M (not that there's a real M rt now) at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Good to hear from you again, DB-and even better to hear that you know your life won't end without WW.


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## disbelief

Happy New Year!! to everyone here on TAM especially those of you who helped me survive the last year. May 2012 be a better year!

Disbelief
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Quick update. Legal action for custody/seperation in process. Divorce openly being discussed, goal = low conflict child focused. WW would still prefer to run from it all. I now hold the mirror up to her in regard to her statements and comments, i stand my ground unapolagetic. Alot of her stuff still fits MLC. WW will have moments of it was not your fault, i never said you were that bad etc.
I have the kids full time she sees them when her work schedule permits. It is sad to see the distance grow between them. It is sad to view the whole messed up situation and the massive numbers of people out there in the same. 
My priority is the kids and i do all I can to ensure they are ok. I have adjusted, the big picture being what it is I would still prefer to reconcile and fix it the right way and enjoy what life was suppossed to be (version 2.0) (version 1.0 being scrapped).
However option of divorce, fully moving on, providing my children with enough love and happiness to be secure and confident in themselves to lessen the effects of divorce. For me to live a full and happy life with someone at some point who truly appreciates who I am and how I treat them, and they treat me equally as well..............Yes that is an option.
I am not the shattered disbelief that started this thread although it still baffles me that I ended up here. I have found myself again and realize through this troubled time of my life I have created much positive growth especially with my children.

It is definitely a choice to allow a bad situation to tear you down and destroy you or stimulate new growth and find better things.

recognizing my own faults was part of this journey. I tended to focus on the negative. I am finding the positive in many ways.
positivegraphics.com a great starting point.

Have a great weekend all.


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## Affaircare

Hey Disbelief~

Nice to see you again--long time no see  You sound like a different person! So glad to see you've done some work on yourself and so sorry to see your WW would rather run than face herself. It's so sad. 

Anyways... :yay: Hi!!


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## disbelief

Hey AC, very different, I am not that devistated shell shocked person. Still if i ponder it I can still become sad in the moment but i do not let it grip me. Unless there is some major turn of events we will eventually be divorce with some sort of custody that is best for the kids. Whenever she wants to take the kids she is asking me is it OK.
As long as she doesnt turn mamma bear and vindictive everything will be manageanble. Podcasts are awesome so much to learn. It is still awful any of us are here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kallan Pavithran

Stay strong, take care of yourself and children, May god be with you


----------



## disbelief

Well a little update especially for all the times 102 said she wanted me to file first. She filed in Dec 2010 papers were dismissed because she did not act. 
I finally filed for custody and seperate support.
She continued to be bitter and angry. Hmm why is the betrayer bitter and angry, when i offer graces recovery and so on, toxic shame i would assume.
Any way. She filed for divorce again. We can expedite this time.
Happy st pattys day all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

disbelief said:


> Well a little update especially for all the times 102 said she wanted me to file first. She filed in Dec 2010 papers were dismissed because she did not act.
> I finally filed for custody and seperate support.
> She continued to be bitter and angry. Hmm why is the betrayer bitter and angry, when i offer graces recovery and so on, toxic shame i would assume.
> Any way. She filed for divorce again. We can expedite this time.
> Happy st pattys day all!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!


----------



## Chaparral

disbelief said:


> Well a little update especially for all the times 102 said she wanted me to file first. She filed in Dec 2010 papers were dismissed because she did not act.
> I finally filed for custody and seperate support.
> She continued to be bitter and angry. Hmm why is the betrayer bitter and angry, when i offer graces recovery and so on, toxic shame i would assume.
> Any way. She filed for divorce again. We can expedite this time.
> Happy st pattys day all!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What did she say? How did this play out? Be strong and move on. I s she blaming you?


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## disbelief

F-102 said:


> Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!


Wise guy hey .............
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

chapparal said:


> What did she say? How did this play out? Be strong and move on. I s she blaming you?


She has grown more distant and angry with moments of being ok. The alien is long gone from her face and demeanor but she is stuck operating from a negative place believing from her own mental creation that i dont really want her back. Although i have offerred every avenue to make it a possibility.
She does not blame me she has owned up that i did not cause her affair but she continues to project things. Faults and so on.
I plan to continue to improve myself so i can "save" my childrens emotional well being.
I have held the mirror up to her when she only wants to run given her personality i can only imagine it feels nearly as bad as d day for her each time a child cries at her missing her.
I will have custody she will have visitation. I will keep the marital home she will pay support. This is the offer from her lawyer to mine.
I didnt file D she did. I stood fast in my belief was it right I dont know, I certainly know I can provide my children the emotional security they need.
The story is not over yet..............
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Good luck, best wishes and prayers for your family,

Chap


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## Beowulf

Be strong for your children. You are all they have right now. Your W will have to figure things out for herself...if she ever does. Good luck.


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## happyman64

D,

I have read all your posts this weekend.

All I can say is Thank God you have found yourself.

I am very sad for your situation. Your wife just cannot forgive herself and is not willing to fix herself.

She has lost so much and she knows it. Very sad that she does not have the fortitude to fight for herself, to get better, to love her family like they love her.

Keep loving your kids. They will be better for it in the long run and you should look at yourself in the mirror knowing you gave your marriage and family 150% of yourself.

When your D is final you should send your wife the link to this thread. Maybe she will read the entire thread and finally kick herself in her own butt to fix herself.

My prayers for you and your family tonight.

HM64


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## disbelief

HM64Y- You read the whole thing.....wow. Thanks for the words.
it would still be my preference to heal this. Through all i have learned i believe her true self is within, she has said it and I believe being mentally clear that the A was not planned. 
Anyways....Here's to positivity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

From another thread. Your wife should read this, maybe you could print it off for her.



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/41741-wtf-wrong-wives-these-days-12.html#post634833

Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing

By Jane Gordon

Last weekend, at a family wedding in the country, I was overwhelmed by an emotion that has, in the last year, become only too familiar to me.

Sitting in a stifling marquee, listening to my cousin Sally's husband making the traditional father-of-the-bride speech, I was overcome by a feeling that was part envy, part guilt and part regret.

My cousin's marriage, which has lasted for 25 years, is by no means perfect - what marriage is? - but against the odds, she has achieved something that is now, and always will be, beyond my grasp.

As I looked at her sitting happy and radiant at the top table, laughing uproariously at her husband's far from funny jokes, I realised that, in a world that has horribly devalued the institution of marriage, she was reaping the benefits of putting the love and security of her family first, before any disagreements she might have with her husband in the rough and tumble of daily life.

Watching her united with her husband on such an emotional occasion reminded me sharply of exactly what I had lost - but had no idea I was losing - seven years ago, when I got divorced from my husband, the father of my three children, after 25 years together.

Our relationship had broken down, I can now see, not because of any petty irritations such as his lateness or my untidiness, but because we had both moved irrevocably away from each other.

In the past few years of our marriage, I was more absorbed in my children and my career than I was in my husband while he, feeling increasingly isolated, simply switched off.

It's a scenario that will be familiar to many couples. But how many of them choose to separate, and how many have the gumption to stick it out?

The trouble is nobody tells you the truth about divorce. They tell you it's a 'difficult' experience, and it's generally accepted that the process sits somewhere near the top of the ten most stressful life events.

But in the main it is regarded by society as a necessary evil. A milestone which, in an age when two in five UK marriages will fail, millions of us will go through at some point in our lives.

Indeed, in many ways, divorce is given a more positive spin in our confused modern world than marriage is.

The drawbacks of divorce are believed to be mostly either financial - as if the splitting up of the spoils of a life together were the very worst part of the process - or the fallout experienced by the children.

Little is ever said about the longer-term effects of divorce on the couple. No one ever points out that the repercussions of a marital split will reverberate down the timeline of your life forever.

This week, the Conservatives published a report commissioned by Iain Duncan Smith which proposed a three-month 'cooling off' period for couples considering divorce.

But the idea that couples would be ready to rethink their break-up after such a short period is unrealistic.

As I have discovered the hard way, it is only now, seven years after I received my decree nisi, that I am starting to realise the gravity of what I have done.

If it has taken me this long for the seismic shockwaves of divorce to really hit home, how are warring couples expected to take an informed decision about separation when they are in the midst of the rows, the tension and the recrimination that so often accompany the death throes of a marriage?

It is only now that I am experiencing something akin to the seven-year 'itch' of marriage; the seven-year 'ache' of divorce, a regular recurrence of the emotion I experienced at that recent wedding - a pang, a regret for what has gone for ever.

There is much in my post-divorced life that I am grateful for and happy about. I have gained a new partner and two stepchildren, and our 'blended' family is more harmonious than anyone could have expected.

My ex-husband, who is a media consultant, has 'moved on' to a perfectly ordered and elegant bachelor apartment and a social life (with a series of ever-younger girlfriends) that is the envy of his old married friends.

On the surface, we have 'come through' our split relatively unscathed. But however contented I might be with my new partner Robin - and he with me - we realise that our relationship is, well, somehow second-best.

Our true loyalties lie not with our new 'blended' family, but with our own biological children and the ex-partners from whom we were both amicably divorced.

The important occasions in family life which I used to love - birthdays, Christmas and so on - are now difficult, trying times.

They are unsatisfactory no matter how hard we try; whether my partner and I attempt - as we have on several occasions - to unite our new and old lives or agree to simply be apart for the 'sake' of our children.

Now, for example, we spend Christmas apart - each ensconced with our children and ex-partners - which causes huge tension between us and has made us both dread the annual celebrations.

When my husband and I parted, my view of divorce was simplistic. I believed in the notion of divorce as a clean break and imagined a 'fresh start' would solve all my problems.

It wasn't a decision made lightly, but I had no idea of the true complexity of unravelling a life that had been led in tandem with someone else for more than 20 years.

It was the death of my parents, within six months of each other in 2008, that was the catalyst for my change of heart.

At my father's funeral, my brother made a moving address about the formidable achievements of an extraordinary man. He concluded that the greatest achievement of all was his remarkable partnership - over 60 years - with my mother.

The fact that I had not been able to give my own children the security that I had taken for granted shamed and upset me almost as much as the loss of my adored parents.

My children hadn't lost their parents when my husband and I divorced, but they had lost their family home and the continuity of family life that makes the journey from childhood to adulthood so much more comforting and secure.

It was at that funeral that I first experienced the feeling - part envy, part guilt and part regret - that has haunted me ever since.

With my new partner sympathetically sitting by my side and my ex-husband (who shared so much of my family history and yet had somehow been edited out of it), standing in the gallery, I truly understood what I had lost.

And there have been countless other moments in the past year when I have experienced similar feelings.

Last month, I attended a dinner party thrown by a close female friend whose own marriage had shifted perilously close to the edge of divorce, shortly after mine did, because her husband had an affair.

At the time of my break-up, my view of other people's marriages was as skewed as my view of my own, and I viewed her reluctance to divorce in a cynical way - imagining that her main motivation was her fear of losing her status as a married woman.

But I now see there was a much more selfless reason for her tenacity. Because a marriage, however imperfect, isn't just important in the happy moments of life - a child's graduation or wedding for example - but also in the bad times.

Shortly after my friend and her errant husband were reunited, he lost his high-flying City job and he now admits that it would not have been possible for him to recover from that (they started a successful new business together) without her love and support.

Their relationship has changed - my friend admits that she is still wounded by his infidelity - but losing her trust in him for a time is nothing to what she would have lost had she gone ahead with her divorce.

Back then, I couldn't understand her ability to accept his behaviour. But now I have nothing but admiration for the way she was able to take a longer view of her own marriage.

Indeed, I have a similar sense of admiration and envy for a handful of other still-married friends whose relationships I had viewed somewhat cynically because they displayed such open animosity towards each other.

A good marriage - I now realise - is dependent upon the ability of both partners occasionally to be selfless and to compromise.

It is, of course, ironic that divorce has strengthened my belief in marriage. But then the years haven't just changed my view of divorce; they have inevitably blurred my memory of the reasons for our split.

Somewhere in my new home there is a large brown envelope filled with the reasons why we parted, duly noted down by lawyers, but the passage of time has made those mutually exasperating irritations seem petty.

In 2002, they were real and seemingly insurmountable. Had someone told me the truth about divorce then - explained exactly how, in the years ahead, it would impact on my life - perhaps we would still be together.
It is impossible to go back, but at the same time my divorce makes it difficult for me to move forward.

Maybe one day my new partner and I will marry, but the impact of our break-ups - he divorced several years before me - has so far prevented us from making a legal commitment to each other.

Our mutual fears that re-marriage will somehow invalidate our original families, and his concerns about the financial loss he would endure should our marriage subsequently break down, make the notion of a wedding unlikely.

But my divorce hasn't just had a major impact on the likelihood of re-marrying. I worry, too, that it has affected my children's view of marriage.

Will the repercussions of my break-up not only reverberate down the timeline of my life but also the timelines of my children's lives?

My daughters were 19 and 22 when I divorced and my son, who lives with me, was just ten.

Seven years on, my daughters are both much more focused on their careers than their love-lives, and show no sign of settling down in the way that my cousin Sally's daughter - several years younger - has done.

The long-term effects of my divorce, then, may not only deny me the opportunity to be a bride again and thus, in some way, legitimise my new relationship in the eyes of the world.

But they also could prevent me from being the mother-of-the-bride and - ultimately - a grandmother.

To paraphrase William Congreve's famous quote: 'Divorce in haste, repent at leisure.'

Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing | Mail Online


----------



## happyman64

disbelief said:


> HM64Y- You read the whole thing.....wow. Thanks for the words.
> it would still be my preference to heal this. Through all i have learned i believe her true self is within, she has said it and I believe being mentally clear that the A was not planned.
> Anyways....Here's to positivity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


D,
I am pro marriage and I hope that your wife does come back to the marriage. Her filing for divorce might be seen as a her way of giving you up because she cannot forgive herself for the affair and hurting all of you.

I am sure your real wife is inside. But only she can heal herself. She does seem very angry and immature at times.

You must really love her. I hope she realizes it someday. Especially with her giving up custody.that is a very bad sign to how messed up she is emotionally.

Good Luck and Never give up.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Maybe she's using the divorce as a form of atonement for her marital betrayal. Who knows.

One thing I wonder though, how would she react if there were another woman in your life? Not saying you should start another committed relationship before ending the marriage and giving yourself some time to emotionally heal, just simply wondering.


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## lordmayhem

Wow, this saga has gone on for a year and a half now.


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## disbelief

morituri said:


> Maybe she's using the divorce as a form of atonement for her marital betrayal. Who knows.
> 
> One thing I wonder though, how would she react if there were another woman in your life? Not saying you should start another committed relationship before ending the marriage and giving yourself some time to emotionally heal, just simply wondering.


She has made all the comments, she is not worthy, and so on what can i see in her counselor figures toxic shame. She gets super defensive when i drop a comment about her not loving me. But i cant fix her. I have secured me and my emotions, and stabilized the kids. Next.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

lordmayhem said:


> Wow, this saga has gone on for a year and a half now.


Yeah....so have so many others i am just crazy enough to document it. I have not stayed stuck. She has. I have always had a long fuse its run out. I was solidly convicted to the M and if she wanted D she could file that part. She did. I can look in the mirror and not be ashamed, i know i tried.
I have remained true to myself and my values.
I have improved through this......i certainly can think of better paths to improvement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

disbelief said:


> Yeah....so have so many others i am just crazy enough to document it. I have not stayed stuck. She has. I have always had a long fuse its run out. I was solidly convicted to the M and if she wanted D she could file that part. She did. I can look in the mirror and not be ashamed, i know i tried.
> I have remained true to myself and my values.
> I have improved through this......i certainly can think of better paths to improvement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know she is going to look back one day and really break down about blowing this chance.


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## disbelief

Beowulf said:


> You know she is going to look back one day and really break down about blowing this chance.


Maybe......Maybe not.


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## happyman64

Disbelief,

Do yourself a favor.

Just once, call her a coward to her face. Just tell her you are so disappointed in her that she did not step up to the plate, not once. 

All she did with her space is run away from you, your marriage and in reality the kids too. I am not saying she is not a good mother because I know you say she is.

But just tell her to her face. She deserves it.....

Then all you can do is walk away from her and work on your own future.

You are far too good a man with incredible patience. She does not deserve you or a 2nd chance now.

You should have no regrets after this past year and a half. And you are better off alone or with a new woman then the broken person your wife has turned into.

One ticket for her to the karma bus coming up. 

Good Luck Disbelief,

HM64


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## happyman64

And send her the link to this thread in the near future. Maybe she will have the courage to read it, then again maybe not....


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## disbelief

Hmm, I have expressed my disaapointment but not in that clear concise of a statement.
The whole thing for anyone just sucks mostly for the kids.


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## happyman64

I just think if I got my issues in order, took on responsibility as primary care giver, pretty much gave my spouse whatever she asked for to be able to heal and I am the battered spouse plus got served I would want to have my say to her face in a short clear concise statement of my feelings. 

She deserves to know how disappointed you are in her. She needs to hear it and see it from you in person so she never forgets it.

With all the selfishness she has shown you and your family that is the least you can give her.

What a coward. 

You will have no problem replacing her. I say that with sadness because you have shown all of us just how much you love her. And she does not deserve it. Not one speck of your love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

I can say that I see her behavior as that of a person who is afraid. Afraid to face what she has done, the pain it causes her children and me. She has always been a conflict avoider I never understood that until all this I didnt know when she went silent it was to avoid conflict. 
From a woman who would only have a glass of wine or one wine cooler to one who drinks who knows how much, she has caused so much suffering to herself and her family that I believe the saying that if anyone knew what it would be like after an affair they would not go down that road.
Let's check some running behaviors. Drinking, increasing work hours decreasing calls to kids, simply moving out of the marital home then the pain is not in her face. Not willing to talk about the real issues, avoiding A talk, ......
Head in the sand only repeats history. I can see that marriages can be saved but you need a frame up overhaul.
Court tomorrow for a temp order.
Good night TAM


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## happyman64

I hear you disbelief. And I know you are so disappointed.

What kind of temp order? Custody?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Disappointed suits me well, not even angry anymore. And yes temp order to address custody and support. Finalized down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Good Luck today Disbelief. No more Mr. Nice Guy buddy.....

Remember she makes more than you and should contribute equally financially since she does not contribute equally anywhere else.


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## F-102

You may have to face the cold hard facts: 

The woman that you fell in love with has been erased and replaced. Can you ever fall in love with this new one?


----------



## disbelief

F-102 said:


> You may have to face the cold hard facts:
> 
> The woman that you fell in love with has been erased and replaced. Can you ever fall in love with this new one?


Right now it's not even a consideration, she filed the D now she is mad and bitter over the child support she has to pay.
I cant worry about it I have 4 kids that need me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

disbelief said:


> Right now it's not even a consideration, she filed the D now she is mad and bitter over the child support she has to pay.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally, I think that is hilarious. I mean, I know you are in mourning over the loss of your marriage Disbelief, but the irony of what is happening to her is simply delicious.


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## Beowulf

bandit.45 said:


> Personally, I think that is hilarious. I mean, I know you are in mourning over the loss of your marriage Disbelief, but the irony of what is happening to her is simply delicious.


I have a feeling this is just one in a long line of wake up calls she has lined up for herself.


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## Chaparral

She made her bed. If I were you she would hear this a million times.


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## happyman64

D,

Like you said she filed. Now she needs to pay.

Stay firm with her since you are the primary care giver of 4 kids.

She has gotten off of everything too easy.

Time for her to pick up some responsibility as a parent.

Be firm and stay committed to your family.

HM64


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## disbelief

Yes, that is the point it has reached. As popeye would say I've taken all i can standz can't standz no more.... so much to the point that i dont even think i want R anymore. There would need to be some amazing turn around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief

Well It has been so long. I just may have to read my whole thread to see where i have been because I feel great and it us all me nothing to do with what is going on. 
Projected divorce date is Sept 11 2012. A bit Ironic considering I am a military and Fire guy. Currently the children are doing OK. I decided long ago and stuck to creating a positive environment for my children thanks to Larry Bilotta's program and sites like Positive Graphics.com and new male supportive friends. I have " unplugged from the Matrix" and seek more positive influence than negative. Things are and will be good.
As the court date approaches she becomes nicer. She still cannot express herself and given I have educated myself extremely on this so much of it all roots back to her past. It does not excuse the behaviors. I have simply chosen to understand the situation in order to be able to deal with it.
Another reality is what good would the rest of my life be harboring resentment anger and negative feelings. In the end I would be the one sufferring.
For any newbies reading this I can say that the greates change in her behavior was when I no longer acted against what she was doing. This of course comes with the caution of protect assets, children, don't move out and the other wise advice given here on this forum.
None of us should go down like the Titanic, take the pain and grow rise like a Phoenix from the ashes.


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## happyman64

Disbelief

I just reread this thread and a few of your older threads.

You have come very far my man.

And sadly, your wife has gone backwards in her life.

Keep loving those kids like there is no tomorrow.

From your current post I know you are going to be great.

And I also know you will find a woman that has your values and shares the same dedication that you have for your family.

It is truly time to just let her go!

And you know which her I am referring to.

Good Luck,

HM64


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