# Deciphering BPD wife speak



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

So, my highly emotional - but difficult to communicate BPDwife is getting more and more difficult to figure out . So the riddle gets harder to understand.

I have - through this board and much reading - gotten MUCH more able to finally unlock the riddle of a VERY difficult 3 years. Finding out about BPD has been like lightening hitting....all at once all the riddles I struggled with ...for so long...were unlocked.

But let me give you a recent example of what continues to risk my sanity - and leaves me SO fratught with confusion.

We had a really nice lunch the other day out. It was really great. She showed signs of her long ago self. I enjoyed myself - and was lulled into just a nice natural place...not worrying about eggshells.

On the ride home...I said...
"You know - we need to really do this more often. It was really nice."
"We should show each other and us being together more appreciation than we do"
( I was REALLY in a good spot when I said that and was SO appreciating her and us)

Her reaction?

She got upset. Angry.

I was TOTALLY confused.

I kept trying to understand (through the shock) and simply explain myself.

She then was furious that I was "criticising" her. Said that "nothing is ever enough"...

She would NOT stop seeing what I thought was a POSITIVE and caring statement coming from a great feeling for her and our marriage...and looking it as a "negative" (??) statement????

She then said "If I am not enough for you. IF they way I am is not good enough for you. Then you need to let me go"

Whaaaaatt????

So I have read on here often about triggers. Read about how BPD sufferers are HIGHLY attuned to criticism (even where there is none)...

BUT - I am REALLY still having trouble with reality being SO turned on its ear. STILL upset by being accused...as meaning or feeling things that are the OPPOSITE of what I feel or say.

In learning about BPD I realize that while the past 3 years (where she has exhibited in that time EXTREME BPD behavior - rages, irrational and unpredictable behavior, excess drinking, perimenapause, hormonal issues/imbalance, endocrine imbalance, etc.) I have SO OFTEN simply tried desperately to explain her misconceptions. Been floored by her fury at wildly distorted "explanations" for things. Been acceptant of SO MUCH blame that at times was not only not plausible - but incredibly far fetched.

I realized that I needed to stop trying so hard to "get her to see the truth and reality"...but the episodes were SO filled with emotion, anger, name calling, fury...that I felt if I could not get her to truly see and understand the TRUTH and reality ...we (us or marriage) was at risk.

But I STILL get so put upside down by incidents like this recent one at lunch.

Can someone PLEASE try and felp me dissect WHAT that incident might mean or what I take away from that? WHAT is a BPD thinking and or feeling when I said what I said?
WHY would something seemingly SO POSITIVE - wind up making her angry??

Thank you


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Your first and biggest mistake is trying to rationalize and understand BPD episodes from your wife.

It can't be rationalized. Or understood. What's in her mind is just that. In her mind. And it makes complete sense to her. 

To you, it may just seem a bunch of crazy. That's about as close as your going to get to why it happens.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

This is why it happened: ""We should show each other and us being together more appreciation than we do".

I bet she heard you don't think she appreciates you, even though she is working as hard as she can to be a better person. 

Yeah, it's not what you mean, but it's likely what she interpreted from what she heard. I doubt she heard that the way it sounded in your head, before you said it. 

Should, would, and could, are words with hurt associated. They tend to judge. 

Just a guess.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you.
I TRY to keep myself thinking that.
But if I want to keep our marriage and our family together - and - maybe - find happiness for it all....
I keep thainking that I NEED to figure out what she means...and the more it overtly is out there...I NEED to discusss it to be sure whe knows that her perceptions are in error. Thus return to some level of safety. No?
In example (bad analogy) ...
Wife claims you robbed a bank. She is furious ...angry ...threatens our very existence ....
As PREPOSTEROUS as that is...I feel I obviously NEED to get her to understand I did not. (no?)

OR in the alternative.
I need to at least uncover WHAT is driving this so I can understand IF she even WANTS me here.
In may ways - I tend to internalize the craziness...and put a concern on the fact maybe this is all simply because she really does not want the marriage, me, kids, family??
She SAYS that is not the case..that she does.
BUT then WHY does the simplest things...or even a discussion showcasing GOOD things POSITIVE hopes dreams - illicit NEGATIVE ??

Maybe the answer IS simply BPD...but it is hard to sticke to that when it is SO upside down at times


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

She heard, "Our marriage isn't perfect." and flipped out.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

That girl....
If nothing else - you brought me a much needed smile.

I guess - in many ways I should try and see it as clear as that.

but let me ask a question..(if I might of a woman's perspective)

SO - I am a man who she says she wants to be with ...loves...committed to...me and our family...
YET...all I am saying is that we need to really show how much we appreciate each other. Let the other person feel that.

IF she wants this - loves me - etc...
HOW or WHY would THAT freak her out??


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

They wrote a book about this. Dedicated just to you...

"walking on eggshells"

You'll drive yourself crazy if you think this can be handled by logic and good responses.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> BUT then WHY does the simplest things...or even a discussion showcasing GOOD things POSITIVE hopes dreams - illicit NEGATIVE ??


Because she may not have realized much in the way of good as a child. She may have felt that nothing she did was good enough. All was a negative reaction to anything she did. So, she expects comments to be bad and looks for the bad before looking for the good. 

She believes everyone is trying to put her down for some reason or another. Sometimes, maybe even many times, it's true. Most people don't give a crap because the don't put as much importance on the person saying...whatever it is. 

If she did not place much importance on you, what you say would not bother her as much. It would take longer for comments like that to arouse a negative reaction in her. 

I do believe therapy with emphasis on cognitive distortions is helpful. However, I am not doctor or counselor. It's just a thought. 

Don't take what I say as gospel. Check it out for yourself before making any changes, and consult a real doctor of psychology or psychiatry.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If the thoughts or words of a mentally ill woman start making sense to you, you're in trouble. They don't call it a "disorder" because it's fun to live with. Try to behave like a normal human being and when crap gets too strange, have some other place you can be. I work lots of overtime.


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## MrsDraper (May 27, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> This is why it happened: ""We should show each other and us being together more appreciation than we do".
> 
> I bet she heard you don't think she appreciates you, even though she is working as hard as she can to be a better person.
> 
> ...


Has she been diagnosed, or did you diagnose her yourself?

I can see how the words could come across in a manner that is less than positive.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Wow - thank you for that post.
Opened my eyes a bit.

Yes - she seems to be triggered a LOT from something or somewhere else that is not really "in the room with us"...(so to speak)
The thing you reminded me - is that this lunch occurred WHILE we were visiting her parents. They to this day (she is 49) ilicit an almost child like stress and angst in my wife. Her Mother is seriously filled with MANY issues and I believe that she stole an send of self from my wife.

Also - you are astute - as my wife has told me that she NEVER seemed to be able to please her parents..AND ...she was alwasy expected to love them a certain way...appreciate them in a certain way...etc...etc..

Now - THEY have always done thier BEST to keep their adult kids (she has 2 brothers all with families ) as little kids . THEIR kids still . IN THEIR family still. (moth to flame)

The fact is - that this aberrant behavior is wearing me out.
IF I try and talk about it with her...she gets in a rage.
AND says that I am being insecure...(LOL)

I am FAR from an insecure man...BUT...you know what ?
I AM INSECURE in this unpredictable and upside down marriage.

Thank you again so much. I mean that


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Dear Mrs Draper.
Thank you.

I am convinced BPD on my own.
Though we have been to therapists together - and while they seemed reluctant to state or diagnose as such...said many things as well to point to that.

Curious - please explain how my words might have been seen as criticism? Or gotten her angry?

In simple terms - I felt like I was happy and saying a positive thing.
Her reaction leaves me really confused and worried that is this akin to saying a good thing to someone and making them feel uncomfortable because they to not feel that same way?? Is that what you mean?
(hoping not...but do want to know)


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

well it seems you are not a master of the obvious. You had a good outing with her. Things were going great. Then you had to open your mouth and start discussing stuff that had unpleasant side-tones. STFU next time. Just turn on some frigin music and hum all the way home. 

Give her a LOT of space. Choose very carefully WHEN you want to actually disucss relationship issues. After a very good day you 2 had is NOT the time to do it. 

Hope you learned something this time.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Murphy....
Yea...that had crossed my mind....;-)

But seriously...then give me a sense of WHY what I said would or should get her upset...
(or you can more likely give me bat on side of head...)

But I am stuck in this ..."why would a wife take umbrage to THAT??"


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

sometime ANY communication can be a drag. things are racing around in her head, and if you asked "hey check, is the sky blue?" she might flip out too. "Im too busy to check, check the frigin sky yourself, jeez..." as she storms out of the room.

It is not necessarily what you asked or stated, it is just not something that smoothly meshed with the turning gears in her head. try to catch her mood by closely watching her tells, and only bring up stuff when you KNOW she is receptive to it.

Yeah, it is a peculiar way to live, but with her...that is probably the recipe. 

Find some nice hobbies. Take up fishing, hunting, windsurfing, chess. Just find a lot of ways to spend time away from her, and the fewer times you two are together, she can probably muster up the mojo to control herself.

BTW, do you live in a state where they have medical marijuana? If so, get her some and see if it chills her out! think how pleasant a mellow wife would be for a change!


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

THANK you Murphy.

I actually get that sense at times. 
The more I have been even marginally successful at creating some distance form it ...then the TOTAL preposterous of it is even too great for MY own brand of accept blame "talent" I have.

It DOES however ...leave the non BPD to NEVER really feel like we are being told the entire story...shared the entire feelings...
We are then NEVER able to bask on stable ground.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She was upset because it was an implied criticism. Everything was great and then you said it would be nice if it were always that way. Meaning it isn't always. Someone without her issues might have agreed with you. She didn't.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Yes. I think it's more timing than anything else. She didn't need to hear anything that even hinted that things weren't or hadn't gone well. Also, sometimes its a downer to think about the past. That is the past. Just live in the moment. Keep it positive.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

nightmoves8 said:


> It DOES however ...leave the non BPD to NEVER really feel like we are being told the entire story...shared the entire feelings...
> We are then NEVER able to bask on stable ground.


well, that is probably why so many people married to a BPD are on here talking about their upcoming divorce.

Space and time is what you need to give her. When she is ranting, just do not respond. Be calming. maybe 20 minutes later you can say "why were you screaming 20 minutes ago" and she will sheepishly say "im sorry, I just did not want to be bothered at that time because..."

it is not going to be easy. You need to find some calming and coping mechanisms. I think there are BPD oriented forums, you need to be a regular on there!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Here's my take as a non married to a BPD.

First, as others have pointed out, is the issue of illogic in taking offense for "being criticized". There's that.

There's also the fear of "losing control" by adapting a less extreme, more agreeable stance. That ain't happening because she derives much energy from those blow-ups. Tuning it down a few clicks is like asking an extreme sports dude to take the subway. 

There's even the issue of doing something for YOUR good only (she has no ability to perceive this as something that benefits the both of you. Like sex, likely, this (the normalcy filled outings) is done for your benefit alone.

Not to mention one of the two fears of BPD, fear of engulfment. The closer you two get the more she fears you will smother her emotionally.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Mar 17, 2013)

You really should read "Stop Walking on Eggshells." It will help you understand that which you cannot control and condition yourself against BPD rage.

My wife fits alot of the criteria for BPD. She has a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde personality, among other things that fit the psychological diagnostics used in the field. She has the same personality as your wife. Something completely innocent is blown WAY out of proportion. 

My friend, you will never understand it. 

Hobbies are excellent. You need them, they will help you. I was around mine so much that my "flight or fight" response was always active, waiting for the next $hit storm from her. The adrenaline flow was starting to take its toll on my kidneys.

Then I got back into my hobbies, which meant time away from her and I could relax.

Things you say that are meant as completely innocent, she will turn around and beat you senseless over the head with it. This is HER problem, not yours, so don't let it become your problem. It will drive you crazy, literally.

Hobbies, read the book, and other coping mechanisms are your pals.


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## Tabitha (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm curious. Has she always been like this? Is she on any medication (anti-depressants)? SSRI anti-depressants can cause all sorts of sh*t to fly. Personality changes, "all the sudden" being dx'd with BPD, etc. Going through that with my husband right now. 

After 8 yrs on Effexor, we (I) finally figured out what had caused him to turn into an alcoholic jerk. Now, coming down very slowly off the meds (has taken a year to get down to 25% of his former dose), and we're dealing with his moods all over the place. Hard to take sometimes. 

But yeah, your wife heard a hidden criticism in there. I might have taken it that way too, and I'm "just" menopausal! Enjoy the good moments without pointing them out. Ignore the bad ones the best you can so as not to escalate them. The best thing you can do is take care of your own mental health the best you can and don't make her irrationality a basis for your unhappiness. You shouldn't make her behavior responsible for anything about your happiness. That's YOUR business. When you let her off the hook for that, she'll feel the relief. I know--easier said than done. Been there, trying to do that! We had a huge anger explosion on Friday--totally out of proportion after reading something into something I said. I was floored. Then scared (discontinuing these drugs is scary stuff)...for him, for us. And then there's today--we had a long overdue talk about a lot of things. HE brought it up. Totally amazing how the tide can turn when you yourself stop trying so hard. 

Good luck to you. You have my very best wishes coming your way.
T


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It's all pretty much

I will cut you
I will cut you
I will cut you
I will cut you


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> So, my highly emotional - but difficult to communicate BPDwife is getting more and more difficult to figure out . So the riddle gets harder to understand.
> 
> I have - through this board and much reading - gotten MUCH more able to finally unlock the riddle of a VERY difficult 3 years. Finding out about BPD has been like lightening hitting....all at once all the riddles I struggled with ...for so long...were unlocked.
> 
> ...


At least your finding this out after 3 years and not 20 years.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

Something we can't/don't know from your story, is your tone of voice when you said this. Could it be that she flipped out becaus of tone?


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> On the ride home...I said...
> "You know - we need to really do this more often. It was really nice."
> "We should show each other and us being together more appreciation than we do"
> ( I was REALLY in a good spot when I said that and was SO appreciating her and us)
> ...


OK, IF she has BPD...(I'm just going to answer as if she does.)

Because it sounds like blaming and criticism to her - blaming her for relationship issues, for not doing what you think she should. 'We' means 'you' to her. She's interpreting this as you saying she doesn't show enough appreciation, etc. Therefore she is falling short, and you are finding fault with her. 

It would make me uneasy to have someone say that to me. (I have BPD and have been in therapy for a while. But now I would verify instead of firing up.)



nightmoves8 said:


> She would NOT stop seeing what I thought was a POSITIVE and caring statement coming from a great feeling for her and our marriage...and looking it as a "negative" (??) statement????


She's seeing holes in your 'positive'. 2ntnuf really pegged it. She's programmed to look for negative things first. Her life has obviously not taught her that it's safe to look for the positives first, or that they are likely to be there at all. She is always on guard against attack. 



nightmoves8 said:


> She then said "If I am not enough for you. IF they way I am is not good enough for you. Then you need to let me go"


The dreaded 'not good enough'. She'd rather beat you to the punch and not be surprised by your inevitable (to her) abandonment, which she is flagged on during conversations such as this. What she might think you actually said/her translation of you --> "We just had this really nice time, but we're certainly not okay and I still have a problem with you. Too bad you felt you were safe for a second! Maybe you're on the chopping block after all, because you just don't measure up!"



nightmoves8 said:


> So I have read on here often about triggers. Read about how BPD sufferers are HIGHLY attuned to criticism (even where there is none)...


Yes, they definitely are. I personally hate being criticized by people I care about, even just perceived criticism. It's one of the worst feelings.



nightmoves8 said:


> BUT - I am REALLY still having trouble with reality being SO turned on its ear. STILL upset by being accused...as meaning or feeling things that are the OPPOSITE of what I feel or say.


She needs to see a therapist for anything to be determined. Even with therapy, she'll always be sensitive to such things. Maybe other sensitive people without (possible) BPD would also be bothered by it, but wouldn't react as strongly.



nightmoves8 said:


> In learning about BPD I realize that while the past 3 years (where she has exhibited in that time EXTREME BPD behavior - rages, irrational and unpredictable behavior, excess drinking, perimenapause, hormonal issues/imbalance, endocrine imbalance, etc.) I have SO OFTEN simply tried desperately to explain her misconceptions. Been floored by her fury at wildly distorted "explanations" for things. Been acceptant of SO MUCH blame that at times was not only not plausible - but incredibly far fetched.


When she is in a very emotional place, she wants to be approached on an emotional level, not a logical level.

I've experienced this with people I care about. I tell them I'm upset and hurt about x, and they go about giving me the logical breakdown of why x was perfectly acceptable and fine, thus totally disregarding my feelings. Which is invalidating and infuriating. All I want is something like, "I didn't realize it would hurt you. That wasn't what I wanted at all. I'm sorry." I do not want to hear the 5 logical reasons why my hurt is inappropriate or doesn't matter or should go away. I want to have my hurt acknowledged and addressed. Maybe you can try doing that with your wife in the meantime.



nightmoves8 said:


> I realized that I needed to stop trying so hard to "get her to see the truth and reality"...but the episodes were SO filled with emotion, anger, name calling, fury...that I felt if I could not get her to truly see and understand the TRUTH and reality ...we (us or marriage) was at risk.


Your truth and reality. It's ALL subjective. And it would be invalidating to keep trying to impose your truth and reality on someone, so that would definitely be triggering to her. She does need to understand that if she doesn't respect certain boundaries, she will bring about the abandonment that she fears.

Contrary to what a lot of people will say, people with BPD are not crazy and they do have reasons for acting and reacting the way they do. It is not your job to become a BPD expert, of course, or to live without boundaries. That would just make things worse - and be enabling, which will only hurt you and your wife. Your wife really does need to see a therapist, and said therapist needs to be experienced with BPD and various treatment methods (especially DBT).


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> It's all pretty much
> 
> I will cut you
> I will cut you
> ...


It's not a laughing matter, but fuvk did this make me laugh.

Sums everything up in five neat lines. This is all you gotta know.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

dormant said:


> Something we can't/don't know from your story, is your tone of voice when you said this. Could it be that she flipped out becaus of tone?


Or facial expressions. I had a close friend with BPD and sometimes the looks on my face would drive her berserk.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

NightMoves8, I am talking to you, not your wife, so I'll address your role (what you can change). 

The first thing that struck me when I read your OP was how you SAID you were expressing your happiness by saying what "should" happen more often. Your wife isn't an idiot, and understood perfectly that you were really saying "these good feelings don't happen very much." It WAS criticism! 

You said you wanted to understand why she would be unhappy about that comment, and responses from people here told you the answer: that you implied negativity. Yet you came back later and basically said again, "But I don't understand why she'd get upset." 

This tells me that you're so busy listening and respecting the thoughts clamoring around in your own head that you don't have much room for what others have to say...including your wife! 

Who knows if your wife has BPD or not? She may have it, but it hasn't been diagnosed even after you've seen counselors. I can promise you that if you learn to listen to her without filtering what she says through your own noisy thoughts, you will make better progress with her in all your discussions. 

Here's an article I wrote about BPD that is written for loved ones who are interacting with them. While I don't know if your wife has BPD or not, the suggestions in here will be helpful to you in any case. Compassion is key to not having the kinds of interactions you described here.

Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Kathy, my wife has diagnosed but untreated BPD and her reaction to exactly the same comment posed by me in the exact same scenario as the OP was exactly the same.

The reason is simple in my view. Think of the iconic twin fears of abandonment and engulfment a BPD has. This means in their mind they need some kind of limit as to what they will allow before it gets too engulfing or risks being too distant.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Fighting Rules, they need to be set and followed.

I would recommend:no anger, no name calling, no swearing.,.....etc etc

GOAL: to communicate and talk to each other like ADULTS SHOULD.

She sounds like a grown ass woman with a tantrum of a 3 year old child.....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's exactly what BPD is, DoF....


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Just my opinion as a woman and a non BPD person.

I would have been angry over the comment, you say it was sincere and it may have been, however in her eyes and as I can see every woman who has posted to you would have taken it as a criticism.

Men and woman communicate differently, when the person you love says something that feels like an underhanded compliment it cuts to the core. 

My husband does this a lot and gets me when I'm the most at peace/ love with him. Most times I keep my mouth shut, When I tell him that the way he said something to me could be construed different and I give him an example of what I heard, he then gets angry and says he will no longer talk to me.

He will then come back to me a few more times and it is obvious that he feels bad and is now feeling guilt which is another set of problems.

Perfect example, We had a real nice night and after making love tears rolled down my face, I was just so very happy with the whole day and then he says, "is your period about to start"?

that would be the equivalent of me saying to him. " Why are you so mad"? do you have sperm back up? after he was lashing out at people all day and being grumpy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would not think the two situations are similar. The comment with the tears was way immature and not very constructive.

OP simply said that if his (BPD) wife had a good time doing XYZ activity then they should do it more often...


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> Kathy, my wife has diagnosed but untreated BPD and her reaction to exactly the same comment posed by me in the exact same scenario as the OP was exactly the same.
> 
> The reason is simple in my view. Think of the iconic twin fears of abandonment and engulfment a BPD has. This means in their mind they need some kind of limit as to what they will allow before it gets too engulfing or risks being too distant.


I don't doubt that the reaction to the same type of comment in the same kind of situation would elicit the same response. Many non-BPD people in this thread have also said, "Hey, that was implying criticism." NOBODY responds well to criticism, right? Just because someone has BPD doesn't mean that their reaction is not justified to some degree. One of the key elements of working with BPD folks is to EMPATHIZE and understand where they are coming from, but what I see happening in this thread is that the poster seems to avoid facing his own role in these exchanges by chalking her reaction up SOLELY to BPD, when in fact, it's not just due to that!


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> I would not think the two situations are similar. The comment with the tears was way immature and not very constructive.
> 
> OP simply said that if his (BPD) wife had a good time doing XYZ activity then they should do it more often...


Then you must have missed this comment, John: 

"We should show each other and us being together more appreciation than we do."

He could start doing that without making it seem like she needs to do something different, but instead, he says "we" aren't doing enough of something. It *is* a criticism whether you want to acknowledge this or not!


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

john117 said:


> I would not think the two situations are similar. The comment with the tears was way immature and not very constructive.
> 
> OP simply said that if his (BPD) wife had a good time doing XYZ activity then they should do it more often...



I'm not disagreeing with you, I simply stated that most of the men on this post have said BPD is the issue. OP also stated (he diagnosed her). Most of the woman here have said they too might have taken the comment wrong.

To me this sounds like they aren't communicating well.

I used myself as an example, maybe not the best example but it just happened. My husband just doesn't filter when he talks nor does he think he should have to. 

From years of marriage and talking to woman this is a common problem and not unique. 

I work in High Tech with mostly men and when asked to do something I'm able to interpret the ask 2 different ways on most occasions. I go back to the person to confirm said ask and 9 out of 10 times they will say, "Wow It could have been taken that way also. thanks for confirming.

different languages, men speak their mind and the moment they think of it and women formulate every thought and how that very though might be perceived and then still say it wrong.

to me its just how we are.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Then you must have missed this comment, John:
> 
> "We should show each other and us being together more appreciation than we do."
> 
> He could start doing that without making it seem like she needs to do something different, but instead, he says "we" aren't doing enough of something. It *is* a criticism whether you want to acknowledge this or not!



I did not miss it. That was exactly the point. 

He could show all the appreciation he can towards his wife but if she does not reciprocate the experience is wasted.

It would have been offensive if he put the onus of this on his wife, i.e. 

"You should show me and us being together more appreciation than you do."

BPD from my experience does not process "we" very well. They process "I" and "you" but their mind is so concerned about maintaining victim status that there simply is no space left for "we". 

My theory (sadly I'm out of grad psych school otherwise it would make an awesome research topic) is that BPD's have a predetermined idea of how much "goodness" or "normalness" they are willing to dole out. Be it sex, playing with their kids, or having a date night with their spouse, they will be concerned that if they crank up the amount then it takes away from them. They see everything not only as black and white but as a zero sum game. As such any gain to the husband is a loss to her.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

So - I am fascinated reading where this post went.
As the OP - let me please weigh in a bit.

First - while my wife was not "diagnosed" - two things.
I haev understood that many (most?) therapists are cautious or at least reluctant to bring up or state that diagnosis. In fact, we were in marriage counseling, where I would assume even if suspected- the reluctance and setting and PURPOSE of being there made the counselors FAR more reluctant. That said, after reading a large volume of BPD information - it actually made solid sense now even what THEY were saying.
Let me make is clear, I am was NOT "looking" for a diagnosis, and as a matter of fact , suffered through long years of simply wanting to understand what was happening. So I am the furthest thing you will find from someone wanting to gain a diagnossi and shirk my role in anything. 
As a matter of fact, I in many ways am ashamed to admit to suffering from "nice guy" syndrome - so I willingly took the blame for the chaos - and put up with considerable rage and abuse.

For what it is worth, I am willing to see that one could see a criticism in what I said. But I am here to say that John is very right, there absolutely was the OPPOSITE of that in what I was trying to convey.

Unless one has dealt with this - you must understand that there are stretches of time that most ANYTHING is seen as a criticism. AND the better I have gotten at staying away from coming close to anything that could become that...the MORE far fetched the criticism taken are.

There is NOT a whole lot of affection from my wife. NOT a whole lot of nice. 
I have been hoping - if nothing else - that we can find an appreciation just for us being there. As Parents. For our family.
For the years we have been together. 

I meant that WE need to do that more. But I think John is right...there is not a lot of WE thinking.John is right - it seems/feels to me that makes them feel uneasy..or on a insecure place somewhat.
The WE must have limits. And be carefully controlled.
(but that's an entirely other subject)

Look, If we were having a great moment - one that was genuine - at a park.
I might say - you know - we need to spend time like this more often. Would that be a criticism? 

We were at lunch. It was nice. We were connecting. 
I was in a life is short moment and truly was in the realization that I loved this woman - my wife.

Anyone who is in the middle of this (BPD) knows that you dare not fall to deep in that (much as I WANT to) for that nice lunch will soon be spun into black.

But I was just musing aloud my hope and want and belief that we need to be happy with what we have. 
Thats it.

I was met with ..not tepid response. I was met with RAGE. 
It is necessary that you try and not take that word I am writing lightly. I do mean RAGE....hate.

What "should" I have said to avoid the chance it was seen as a critique?. 
"I need to appreciate you and us more"?

Well, I DID mean that ...but honestly I meant we should BOTH do that more often.

This thread strikes me that many do not know what living with this is like.

My entire reason for writing was - in the moment - it is confusing to lay your genuine and sincere and loving feelings out there - and be met with rage. 

And to the comment that even a non BPD might have seen that as criticism. I would say that a tremendous amount of spouses would have just seen that as a nice thing to say - and feel good about that ...and in fact...simply hold the spouses hand and agree.

Unfortunately - I don't have that in my life.
I have to simply understand that.

But to have the rage - that is tough


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

[And to the comment that even a non BPD might have seen that as criticism. I would say that a tremendous amount of spouses would have just seen that as a nice thing to say - and feel good about that ...and in fact...simply hold the spouses hand and agree.

Believe it or not I understand where you are coming from, My comment is not meant to be hurtful, its just a different perspective. I like most woman interpret your words in more than one way.

About me: 

My husband is an extremely volatile person who is trying very hard to change his ways. Nevertheless he is who he is.

I have walked on eggshells for close to 25 years now and I never know if I will get the man who will be understanding or this person I will call the hulk.

The hulk does not care who is around and has landed himself in jail (not by me).

I believe my husband has extreme rage/ anger issues and should be diagnosed, however he would never allow it. 

People get misinterpreted all of the time, its human nature. 
Although I can see you were making your comment from a place of love, it is much easier to hear it as a negative, if someone has low self-esteem or tends to be negative person, your words could be construed to mean something entirely different than what you intended.

I say this as a woman with low-self-esteem, its much easier to believe the bad stuff people say then the nice things people say.

I think you should continue to be who you are and not be afraid to speak when your trying to be sincere.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

BPD or not...

The reactions of the women on this thread, to me, indicate a high sensitivity to what was actually his husband portraying love and concern and appreciation, and you turned it into him being too critical.

Maybe he should keep his mouth shut? Then you'd all be on here complaining about a silent, uncaring husband that never speaks.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> BPD from my experience does not process "we" very well. They process "I" and "you" but their mind is so concerned about maintaining victim status that there simply is no space left for "we".


Their mind is more concerned about defense/self-protection, rather. I see the I/you as a "battle stations" problem rather than a victim problem. People get very stuck on that perception/mindset when it comes to BPD, but it's more about recognizing threats and a lack of trust (in the world, other people, self). Things that aren't necessarily threats or are more neutral are identified and reacted to as threats. Because the person with BPD has trouble discerning true threats from, well, everything else. They err on the side of caution - to the extreme.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Agreed; the most hurtful part to the non BPD is the issue of being unable to trust anyone including their partner, thus rationing any amount of feel-good opportunities...

I mean, come on. I have awesome opportunities to cheat - money, time, and any of a number of web sites to find FWB's... 

Is a little trust that hard to come by?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

OP, you may have meant "we" but she heard it solely directed toward her. And responded with rage. Should she have responded with rage? No. Would I, a random female used as an example, have responded with rage? No. But that's how *she* is. So if she won't agree to get help then you need to decide if you want to continue to live your life that way.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> Agreed; the most hurtful part to the non BPD is the issue of being unable to trust anyone including their partner, thus rationing any amount of feel-good opportunities...


Sometimes it's the other party rationing the feel-good opportunities. (Personally, I try to create more of them rather than rationing them.) And though I still had trust problems even with my most recent partner...they were not all due to BPD issues.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> Is a little trust that hard to come by?


Sometimes, yes. Very. But if I came across someone who acted trustworthy, given some time, I would trust that person. Might take me longer than it would a non, but I WOULD trust them. Can't speak for any other BPDer.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

nightmoves8 said:


> Can someone PLEASE try and felp me dissect WHAT that incident might mean or what I take away from that?


NM, your "take away" -- if your W is a BPDer as you suspect -- is that a BPDer typically will exhibit the VERY WORST behavior immediately after the VERY BEST of times. Significantly, the outrageous behavior you describe occurred immediately on the heels of a great day and an intimate lunch, where "She showed signs of her long ago self."

I therefore believe *John* nails it in post #29 above, where he offers the most likely explanation, IMO. John explains that, because BPDers quickly feel engulfed and suffocated during intimate moments, _"they need some kind of limit as to what they will allow before it gets too engulfing or risks being too distant." _

The result is that, immediately following an intimate evening or in the middle of a great vacation, BPDers often will create a fight over absolutely nothing as a way of pushing you away to give them breathing room. Because they have a fragile self identity and low personal boundaries, they quickly become so enmeshed with your strong personality during intimacy that they can feel like they are evaporating into thin air -- a very frightening feeling.

Importantly, this push-away typically is NOT done deliberately or consciously. Rather, it occurs when the subconscious protects the BPDer's fragile ego by projecting the frightening feelings onto you. This means that the next statement coming out of your mouth -- no matter how harmless -- will be misperceived in a way that makes you the cause of her distress. Indeed, even if you had sat in the car and said absolutely nothing, it is likely that those painful feelings would have been projected onto you anyway. And because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, the BPDer will be absolutely convinced -- at the conscious level -- that it is the truth.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In the middle of a vacation indeed. After a wonderful week in the Pacific Northwest we were waiting to board a cruise ship for Alaska. It was low 60's and dreary, Seattle weather at its finest. 

I had just dropped the rental car at SeaTac and was cabbing back to the cruise terminal when dr. BPD waiting with the girls freaked out and started complaining about the weather. She called my cell phone a dozen times and said the usual assortment of BPD speak for "the weather is your fault" or "the streets are clogged of course it's your fault" etc. All she had to do was walk 20 feet to get inside the building...

This is what BPD is all about. As a veteran of many BPD campaigns I shrugged it off but her lack of self regulation of emotions still amazed me. 

On the same trip - I have mentioned this before - we went for drinks one night in a moon light and view out of this world. I mean, I've been around and this just blew me away. 

What also blew me away that in nearly two hours my wife and I never exchanged one sentence. Not because she was awestruck, and not because the vacation was paid from a bonus I received for working 60 hour weeks for months on end. She simply had nothing to say.

That was my tipping point in June 27, 2012 near Juneau. Since then our marriage has gone downhill and I have absolutely no interest in fixing it. I thought that I understood the human mind pretty well, but this was not quite a human mind we were talking about. More like a ghost of one.

I don't fault her. She did not ask for it nor does she comprehend it sufficiently to know its a problem for herself or others. But as a (small appliance ) psychologist it amazes me that the human mind can twist reality to such an extent...


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

John - 

Thank you for sharing.
My heart goes out to you when reading this.
I too gazed out onto a stunning sight one moon lit night away on vacation - also to silence. 
The worst of it for me - was the complete contradiction of it all.
My wife - solidly claims she wants to be with me. Is committed to me. States she loves me. (?).
But - here we are. In a corner of the world considered utopia...and its like I am not even here.

Dear "learning to love myself" --
I understand you were not trying to be hurtful. Please understand my "bristle" was not meant to be angst at you. It is so very hard to try and explain this to someone.
I think John is gifted with a way to that many do not.
My being here, and my writing the post, was after hundreds and hundreds of those moments.
It is as if, ALL the reactions and all the rage has become hard to even rationalize. 
When anything /everything is met with this kind of reaction.You begin to actually change and lose yourself and become numb. You just wander through life.
I allowed my feelings to be visible (I am a very communicative and open/sharing/confident person) (OR better yet - USED to be) and I for just that brief lunch was just me. And I allowed myself to look across at her and was transported to another time. I allowed myself to be me for a moment and the exhaustion of all this and the want for connection and joy and positive came to the surface.

In many ways, I was trying to simply just hope that we could if nothing else APPRECIATE each other and let the other know it.
In a sense - that is a huge statement in itself - as I was saying I did no matter what.
I was met with RAGE and ANGER and IRRATIONALITY.
SO - you can only imagine how that felt.
AND the BIGGEST thing about those episodes - is how incredibly debilitating the irrationality is to me.
It leaves me in a complete mystery.
What is real? What is not?

As John and other have stated....my life of the past few years has been a CONSTANT state of that. 180 degree turns over and over and over again.
What I WILL tell anyone...If and WHEN they begin really understanding this disorder. While the "dealing with it" and the "self questioning" and the "confusion" for the non-BPD gets better....the incidents of the irrational and the rage etc...seems to get even MORE unpredictable and MORE implausible.

It is almost as thouhg..the need to reach even GREATER levels to effect the same desired outcome.

I know for me...it was VERY important to take myself (remove) as far away from any possible sense that I had done anything wrong, been to blame, etc.. to help me see this.
Like John said - I was a target EVEN if i was no where to be found. HAd said or done nothing.

It was THEN that I began to see this.

Anyway thank you all.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

nightmoves, you might find insight at Psychology and Mental Health Forum - Psych forums in the General/Significant Others section (that is where they prefer nons to post, to avoid triggering).


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Sorry you're going through all this. I think the best insight I can give on Cluster B personalities is that it is a complete waste of effort and sanity trying to analyze their behavior and make sense of it. By definition, they will not have "normal" reactions to events. By definition, their personality is wired differently than an average person.

In fact, most of their "good" qualities are really copying attempts to mirror things that they see in their life or how they think they should be acting to different situations.

They are in a way, like an android. They look human, they can act like humans, but their brain is wired differently from yours.

Now I am overstating this and being insensitive (BPDers ARE human and DO have feelings, some of them which I respect very much frequent this board). But I think it's necessary to bring it up to you as a codependent, because your first reaction will be to help them or fix them or make this work.

After having gotten out of a relationship with someone with strong Cluster B traits, I can not imagine staying in a relationship with one. You have no idea the toll that kind of relationship will take on your emotional health until you are completely out of the situation for a few weeks. Imagine walking on egg shells your whole relationship and then one day you wake up and there are no more eggs.

Also, it seems like these relationships never end well. You will sit there and duke it out like the good person you are, until at some point they ultimately do something very stupid to subconsciously sabotage the relationship. Usually around the 10 year mark.

I'd do some soul searching and figure out what you really get out of this relationship. Might want to google "oneitis".

If a woman came up to you and said, "I want to marry you, but throw frequent temper tantrums, use sex as leverage, split you back and forth between being my soul mate and the devil, and then ruin your life after I sabotage our relationship." Would you want to stick that relationship out to the bitter end?

In my situation, the firmer my boundaries got and the healthier I started to get, the more she started to freak out. After being out, I realized that my 'oneitis' was blinding me from the obvious truth. I had no business sticking in that relationship. Any perceived benefit of staying together pailed in comparison to being in a stable, emotionally healthy environment. And that includes a hellish coparenting relationship and a handy divorce-raping.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

SO I read this from CO:

"If a woman came up to you and said, "I want to marry you, but throw frequent temper tantrums, use sex as leverage, split you back and forth between being my soul mate and the devil, and then ruin your life after I sabotage our relationship." Would you want to stick that relationship out to the bitter end?"

Was not sure whether to laugh - or cry....

That one paragraph....is like reading Hemingway.....

Yea...how/what/when/why...did we get here?

MAN - I almost cannot remember what my life was like way back WHEN. BEFORE all the above.

This site is so incredibly valuable - as if nothing else - it MAY wake more up far earlier.
I am sure that - like a really good sci fi movie...very few of us would ever really BELIEVE what we read here before we have experienced it...but....

It is amazing how long one succumbs to water torture one drop at a time...how HOT it can get for the frog..1 upward degree at a time...
It really is some kind of horrible Chinese finger cuff...the strongest among us...keep pulling and pulling...

And yea...I have read about "Oneitis"....I got it. Am trying to work thru it..
In fact - I wonder IF a BPD is concisely or unconsciously perfected the strategy of bringing that oneitis to a very high level.

I certainly had a wonderful and varied life with women. Never really succumbed to Oneitis before. I actually read "Nomore Mr. Nice Guy"...and really think that the double hit of being that nice guy....AND Oneitis...is a very very dangerous combination.
Like Kryptonite. 

Anyway...I truly want to again thank all the posters above.
This site is a wonderful gift.
Modern ages...
Let us all feel sad for the non-BPD that went before us PRE -internet...LOL


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If it makes you feel any better it happened to me as well. My wife was quirky and had her moments - as one would expect from someone who grew up in a theocracy of sorts. But she made it all the way to age 50 before popping full BPD after a series of unfortunate events. 

So we had 25 good years of marriage, a couple sh!tty ones and 3 indifferent ones. If you think finding out early on about your partner hurts imagine having it happen 25 years into a marriage.

Dealing with her has not been very difficult all things considered. The only casualty has been intimacy and emotional connection. I learned a lot more about spectrum disorders from her than from my infernal undergraduate lectures...

There's all kinds of moral and ethical dilemmas too... The sickness and health part etc. Not a lot but...


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

nightmoves8 said:


> And yea...I have read about "Oneitis"....I got it. Am trying to work thru it..
> In fact - I wonder IF a BPD is concisely or unconsciously perfected the strategy of bringing that oneitis to a very high level.


A Cluster B is adept at enhancing the feelings of "true love" in their partners. Additionally, they will naturally attract by their actions, men who already are susceptible to this kind of behavior.

I'm not a psychologist but I think it's a safe bet to say that someone who is in a relationship with a Cluster B all but certainly suffers from codependency. The natural partner for someone who always plays the victim is someone who always wants to save. Thus it is very important to get therapy and counseling for your issues (figuring out why you are attracted to this dynamic and why you have such little respect for yourself), or else you're determined to get into it again.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well I am a (small appliance) psychologist  but my tendency is to try to understand, not necessarily save. In fact the more I understand the more I recognize she's beyond saving. 

Also what some people call codependency others call convenience. 

When you have considerable marital assets and obligations it's a no brainer to put up with the occasional flare ups for a few years and bide your time to a good breaking point. If my wife was BPD from day one obviously things would not be the same.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

john117 said:


> Well I am a (small appliance) psychologist  but my tendency is to try to understand, not necessarily save. In fact the more I understand the more I recognize she's beyond saving.
> 
> Also what some people call codependency others call convenience.
> 
> When you have considerable marital assets and obligations it's a no brainer to put up with the occasional flare ups for a few years and bide your time to a good breaking point. If my wife was BPD from day one obviously things would not be the same.


Reminds me of a story I heard. Guy was taking a bath in the jacuzzi tub with his daughter. He was getting clean, everything was great. His daughter started laughing. He looked down and saw little brown rabbit turds shooting all over the bathtub, they belonged to his daughter.

His message: "When you find out there's sh*t in the tub, jump out."

Who cares how clean it was when you got in or how much longer you had left until your bath was done? Divorce isn't going to get better for you after more time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If the incremental cost of divorce now vs now plus two or three years is mid six figures I would think that timing does matter


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

nightmoves8 said:


> On the ride home...I said...
> "You know - we need to really do this more often. It was really nice."


Should have stopped with this comment, that is all you needed to say. but instead, you continued with...



nightmoves8 said:


> "We should show each other and us being together more appreciation than we do"


I'm not surprised she got annoyed. You were being critical by implying that it doesn't happen often. It may been obvious to you, but maybe it wasn't to her. And the implication is that she is to blame (correct or not).

Instead of "we" you should have just said nothing or told her an "I" statement.



nightmoves8 said:


> Her reaction?
> 
> She got upset. Angry.
> 
> I was TOTALLY confused.


Her over the top reaction is of course on her though. How you are surprised at her continued overreactions is kind of puzzling.



nightmoves8 said:


> She then was furious that I was "criticising" her. Said that "nothing is ever enough"...
> 
> She would NOT stop seeing what I thought was a POSITIVE and caring statement coming from a great feeling for her and our marriage...and looking it as a "negative" (??) statement????
> 
> She then said "If I am not enough for you. IF they way I am is not good enough for you. Then you need to let me go"


Maybe you ought to consider getting away from her, take her up on that offer to part. Isn't it draining to live that way?



nightmoves8 said:


> Can someone PLEASE try and felp me dissect WHAT that incident might mean or what I take away from that? WHAT is a BPD thinking and or feeling when I said what I said?
> WHY would something seemingly SO POSITIVE - wind up making her angry??
> 
> Thank you


See, it was only a positive for the very first sentence. The rest was a subtle dig at her failings.

How she reacted to it is an indication of her personality issues.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> For what it is worth, I am willing to see that one could see a criticism in what I said. But I am here to say that John is very right, there absolutely was the OPPOSITE of that in what I was trying to convey.
> 
> Unless one has dealt with this - you must understand that there are stretches of time that most ANYTHING is seen as a criticism. AND the better I have gotten at staying away from coming close to anything that could become that...the MORE far fetched the criticism taken are.
> 
> ...


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Kathy.
Wow.

Thank you.

Very veyr compelling.

Read 4 times...(already)

I want you to know that
A) I appreciate your being so candid and direct
B) Understood you did because I said I wanted this to really work

So, It IS humbling to see how the best intentions - go awry.
I really take heed in what you wrote - and you clearly explained in a way so as best understand.

I REALLY need to shut off the part of me that is SO surpised by her reactions...and the urge to "explain"...or ...."repute" what may have been a wrong perception.
I guess it just makes it all worse.

I really NEED to see how i come across to her. Best intentions or not....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you're dealing with a true BPD your approach is irrelevant. You are not going to sway her opinion one way or another. You're painted, done. 

And while Kathy is right about validation in general, in some cases of strong BPD traits you will find yourself validating BSC behavior which only provides additional fuel to the fire...


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

KB. Bravo. Excellent post. It brought tears to my eyes. I will be sure to "like" it as soon as I'm near a computer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

As a former BPD spouse of eleven years, I, and many of us, share your experience. You made the terrible mistake of making a statement that, while well intentioned, actually acknowledged an issue in the marriage. An issue in the marriage immediately is taken as an issue with her. Now this interferes with her need to maintain victim status and so she goes on the attack because everything always has to be your fault so she can always be the offended party. The icing on the cake is that this little episode will be neatly filed away with every other real, or imagined, event to be pulled out and used against you time and time again......forever. You're place is effectively "chew toy" In my case, the behavior became so extreme that I couldn't survive in the marriage any longer. I wish you the best and suggest you have a professional you can see for your own mental and emotional health.


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## babas12345 (Aug 18, 2014)

This is like reading my own story. I too suffer the heart wrenching tongue lashings of a BPD wife. We have been married 1 year and 4 months and I am frightened as hell. I am losing myself, my energy, my peace and sanity. I wake up every morning with this terrible feeling of dread. Depending on how much optimism I can generate, I go through periods where I think this marriage can survive; mostly and as time goes on, I feel less and less hopeful.
Our story is rare. We met online and had a long distance relationship for two years before we got married. We visited each other often and for long periods of time and yes there were arguments and yes there were red flags. Our love was passionate ( not just sex). We thought we found our soul mate in each other. So we ended up getting married and then started the immigration process which took about 8 months before we could be together. My wife moved here. Its been 4 months. 4 months of HELL. 4 months of nearly daily arguments. She hates it here. She told me that she "loves me less than before". More than once we have "discussed" ( her threatening, me suggesting) her going home. We are both miserable. And then there are times when I try to make it right ( yes I know, Co-D). Date nights. Gifts. I bought her a car. Sweet things I do and say. NOTHING MATTERS. NOTHING is enough. She could care less about our finances, spends most of her "disposable" cash on alcohol ( she won't admit to having a drinking problem...she just says she's 'british'). She does not trust me. I do not trust her. Life pretty much sucks.
So you might wonder why I have not pulled the plug? Part of it is that I love her and want it to work out somehow. The other part is that we have gone through so much to be together. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars keeping this relationship afloat, supported her while she lived in the UK, travelled to the point of exhaustion. My savings are almost depleted. She moved countries for me, left her life and job. That was hard for her.
Reading your posts I am petrified that if I don't get out now, she will drain me completely dry of my self esteem and my money. The longer we stay married the more money she is entitled to get from me. Yes I live in a community property state. And guess what? I am lawyer and know the ins and outs of all things divorce.
I am seeing a therapist. We tried couples but after two times she wouldn't go back.
How do I get the courage to end this and survive the heartbreak?


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## babas12345 (Aug 18, 2014)

And Nightmoves....yes...like one of the posters said...you are a chew toy and so am I and I hope we both can find peace. I think we both need to find the courage to protect ourselves( even if it means divorce) and to love ourselves more than we love them.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Then fight back rage for rage followed by peace and serenity. That tends to unsettle them. 

If they know they will get a taste of their own medicine when they start to rage eventually they may get the message. 

There are side effects of course but eventually at least the raging subsides. BPD think does not.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Babas - 

Yes...I hate to admit it...but "chew toy"...(hard as that is to accept) is apt I suppose.

Given what my life and career has been...let's just say that anyone who knows the other side of me - would be shocked.
(but alas...this is the plight of ones personal life I guess)

What is more depressing to read is your statement:
"Reading your posts I am petrified that if I don't get out now, she will drain me completely dry of my self esteem...

Damn man.
I realize you meant no harm or to disparage by writing that.
But s--t! That one cut through me...
Though if I have helped you then..yea...then it was worth you reading my sad saga.
And yes...I want to tell you something...in my case...it was a continued slide. So ...in return ..when reading your post...It tugged at me the want you have to continue and mostly to return to a safe, secure, happy, affectation, intimate place.

You want to know how I felt.
It was not going to happen.

I truly hope that it can/ and does....but ....


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Babas -

PS - some of the contributors on this site are tremendous.
John above is one of them.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

John - 

I think what i sure did do - was ACCEPT the BSC ...if only by being willing to take it.

Are you also saying that once "painted" by a BPD ...it is stuck forever??

And, what can a spouse do to avoid being painted in the first place?
I must tell you, while we all (and I) am not perfect.
I do believe I have been a very good husband, father, and haev been thier to support and stand up for my wife kids and family.
There is really not ONE egregious thing I can think of to have been painted that way.


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## babas12345 (Aug 18, 2014)

Nightmoves...I meant reading " your "posts...all the people who commented on your posts like John and he is super right on ( as well as your posts). Sorry dude. Didn't mean to bum you out unnecessarily. Suffices to say that probably you and I are bummed out most of the time, except when things are good, which maybe keeps us bummed out anyway because we know that right around the corner is a landslide.
Mine currently is in the "no-talkie" phase. Grunting responses. Not looking at me. Ignoring me. I am my usual helpful self, trying to be optimistic and giving to someone who treats me like dog poop.
Being painted by a BPD, and yes I have done some homework on this, is inevitable. Do you stay painted? I would say mostly. They forget about it for awhile but then when things get ugly they dredge it up again. And it just gets piled on top of another "painting". The worst part is that we come to doubt ourselves and think that maybe we are that way. In my less sane moments I have had to call a friend to refute my wife's comments and tell me that I am "ok" and not a bad person.
You don't deserve to be painted at all. Not even for one bad thing. This black and white thinking is so toxic to the people that the BPD love. I gotta say, and in light of Robin Williams I had a wake-up call, but there are times where I wish I wasn't alive. I hate the pain of all this. I am going to hate the pain of the eventual breakup which I know is coming. IT is just a question of when and who finally says its over.
My wife is capable of such incredible cruelty and venom that a person with less self esteem would have slit their own throat by now.
Like was said, " if my friends could see me now" (and not in a good way) they would be shocked at the behavior that I tolerate. I am a respected professional, well-liked by my colleagues and judges. I am even in the running now for a judgeship. If I get offered it, I have to turn it down because I am a complete mess and not ready for that level of responsibility. IF they only KNEW.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> John -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure the colors are black and white. More likely they're black and gray. A BPD does not go from evil witch to June Cleaver instantly. The other way around, yes.

To avoid being painted... Use your power. The power of having full control of your life - and hers to a great extent - because you abstract the world into Cliff Notes version. The BPD may not want to deal with the nuances of, say, paying a $10 college parking ticket but is fully capable of blowing up if the ticket is brought to her attention 

Rent the movie "Goodbye Lenin"...

You will still get painted, but for the big things. I'm the slacker lazy not ambitious type... Never mind my college degrees are the same size as hers, and I make more than she does. Or that I work my 7 hours a day unlike her 14. You can't avoid those. Yea, I'm lazy. The JD Power award in my lab is fake too... 

I have been the best father I know, by far - to two wonderful college girls - and I am very supportive of my wife's constant career changes and (futile) climb to the top. I have sacrificed a ton of opportunities to make 2-3 times what I make if I respond to the weekly flood of recruiting emails sent by many tech giants (hey Zuck what's the deal dude are you ever going to send me an invite? Everyone else did)...

I will reiterate. Build up your self esteem. Do not let the stress get to you. Focus on your work, kids, or hobbies. If she screams or rages, either respond in kind (always fun) or be gentle and kind, or alternate . 

Eventually you'll break up so it's not worth the effort to try for a fix. Unless you have other reasons for sticking around (college tuition rings a bell )...

It's easier said than done to not be impacted by BSC behavior but try it, either alone or with a therapist. 

I'm 55 and have another decade of work by choice (awesome work, great hours, good food, and cute interns, why retire?). Then 10-15 years in Europe in my dacha. Stop the BSC and get help and you can come along. Otherwise in a couple years when a lot of the tuition is done it's Bye Bye Birdie time.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> Then fight back rage for rage followed by peace and serenity. That tends to unsettle them.
> 
> If they know they will get a taste of their own medicine when they start to rage eventually they may get the message.
> 
> There are side effects of course but eventually at least the raging subsides. BPD think does not.


And here you might be sadly mistaken, depending on your BPDer. They might just amp up and flatten you.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

babas12345 said:


> Depending on how much optimism I can generate, I go through periods where I think this marriage can survive.


Babas, if your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect, there is little chance of your marriage surviving. Typically, BPDer relationships last about 18 months or 12-15 years. If the Non has healthy strong personal boundaries, he usually enjoys the wonderful infatuation period for 6 months and then may spend up to an additional year trying to restore the BPDer to the woman he saw at the beginning. Then he walks.

With Nons like you and me, however, we usually are so determined to save our sick loved one that we will hold on forever, i.e., until the BPDer grows so resentful of our inability to make her happy that she will walk away from us. That typically happens at about year 12 to 15 (15 in my case).



> We are both miserable.


If you are in a BPDer relationship, the toxicity is not something that SHE is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. Her contribution -- i.e., the temper tantrums and vindictiveness -- is easy to see. Your contribution to the toxicity, however, is more difficult to see because you are always convinced that "you're only trying to help." Sadly, you are NOT helping. On the contrary, your presence in the home with a BPDer is frequently triggering her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Hence, all your efforts to comfort her and calm her down are counterproductive. Your mere presence is making her more and more fearful and resentful.



> NOTHING MATTERS. NOTHING is enough.


Of course it doesn't matter. You are foolishly trying to fill up the Grand Canyon using a squirt gun.



> I have spent tens of thousands of dollars keeping this relationship afloat.


Likewise, I spent over $200,000 on my exW's ailments and taking her to weekly visits -- for 15 years -- with 6 different psychologists and 3 MCs. Consider yourself lucky that you have not yet been thrown into jail on a bogus charge filed by your W. That's what happened to me -- and it is a common occurrence in BPDer relationships.



> My savings are almost depleted.


That means that NOW is a great time to get a divorce in a community property state. Your alternative is to hang in there for 15 years and work hard to build up a retirement nest egg, half of which she will walk away with when leaving you.



> I am petrified that if I don't get out now, she will drain me completely dry of my self esteem and my money.


"Petrified" is exactly how you SHOULD be feeling. If you're married to a BPDer, you are playing with fire. And heaven forbid that she should get pregnant. You don't know what "living in hell" feels like until you've had to share custody for 18 years with a BPDer exW.



> We tried couples but after two times she wouldn't go back.


If she is a BPDer, you're lucky she quit going. My experience is that MC is a total waste of time and money until the BPDer has first had years of individual therapy from a psychologist trained in treating BPDers. Even when you get a BPDer to undertake IT, however, it is rare for a substantial improvement to occur because she almost certainly will just play mind games and then quit the therapist when he catches on to her games.



> How do I get the courage to end this and survive the heartbreak?


Babas, I doubt that courage is what you need. My experience is that excessive caregivers like us typically have great courage and are fearless in going where other folks fear to tread. I therefore suspect that the factor keeping you stuck in a toxic relationship is not _cowardice_ but, rather, _GUILT_. We caregivers have such a powerful desire to be needed that we are loath to give up on anyone -- and we are especially loath to walk away from a sick loved one, even when that is exactly what we should do. If this is your problem, there are several things you can do that likely will help. 
*
One thing* is recognizing that your enabling behavior (e.g., walking on eggshells) is harming your W far more than your comforting and calming efforts are helping her. As I said above, your mere presence in the home is frequently triggering her fears. Moreover, by sheltering her from the logical consequences of her own childish behavior, you are destroying any incentive she would have to confront her issues and learn how to manage them. By understanding that you are doing more harm than good, you can free yourself from the misguided guilt that is holding you captive.

*A second action* that should help you is to nurse your righteous anger rather than trying to suppress it (as we caregivers are prone to do). Use the anger like a crutch to help you walk away from this toxic marriage. A year or two later, when you are safely away, you can kick that crutch aside and let go of your anger. Remember, righteous anger serves an important role in our survival when it is used properly. It motivates us to take action and move to safety.

*A third thing* you can do is to start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" and "Leaving" boards. While you are there, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. 

*A fourth action* you can take is to read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder_. As you already know, BPDers become extremely vindictive and mean while splitting you black -- and this nasty behavior is far worse when they become convinced you are abandoning them. As the book will explain, it will be prudent to get all your ducks in a row and then move out without giving advance notice. Moreover, once she knows you intend to divorce her, it is wise to be around her only when you have friends or other people (e.g., professional movers) present to serve as witnesses.

*Finally*, Babas, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. We have several dozen members who frequently contribute and are very experienced with living with a BPDer. We also have at least a dozen regular posters who are BPDers and, as such, are able to provide very valuable insights on this important issue. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, Babas, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> And here you might be sadly mistaken, depending on your BPDer. They might just amp up and flatten you.



True. But remember my inspiration... If WW2 Stuka dive bombers did not frazzle my parents, I think I can handle one person. 

I can predict, validate, or manipulate my way around her, resulting in one rage or two per year instead of per week. Meanwhile a bit of DIY CBT has really helped her. She's not going to be perfect and ultimately we will break up but BPD is not a factor there. Finances are. 

I have seen what she can do and can match it. No shame there. She knows it won't buy her anything if she rages. 

I would not advise everyone to try it. But it worked for one case study. Sure, I can't write up an article and publish it but it's doable, for some cases.


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## babas12345 (Aug 18, 2014)

Uptown....."filling up the grand canyon using a squirt gun"....one of the best ways of putting it! Bravo and thank you!:smthumbup:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

babas12345 said:


> Uptown....."filling up the grand canyon using a squirt gun"....one of the best ways of putting it! Bravo and thank you!:smthumbup:



For the right person, BPD or non, it may be worth it...


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

I agree.
Finding enough water may be the ultimate problem....
not effort.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

To add to what Uptown wrote (and I just posted in your other thread), the disease that YOU have that keeps you sucked in is called codependency. It's the need to be needed, the putting of other people's needs before yourself. It means that you will constantly focus and try to fix other's problems because you do not want to focus on yourself.

Some people with codependency fall in love with abusive men, alcoholics, drug addicts, and some fall in love with BPDers/Cluster B's.

That initial attraction period where every thing was a fairy tale felt so good, and now that things are going wrong it provides an addictive feeling for you to try and fix her or the relationship. It may not feel like it because the interactions are stressful, but you have become so accustomed to them that it is an emotional crutch for you. The time you spend thinking about the way she treats you and how she can be helped is time that you can't be thinking of yourself and your own problems.

CODA.org really helped me (I went to the meetings near me), because it showed my issues in others and allowed me to see how much I was responsible for the faults in my relationship. This likely won't save your marriage (probably the opposite if you actually get emotionally healthy), but more importantly, it will save your sanity.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Coguy - 

I really really appreciate your post.

Yea...my sanity is important.

I worked at this for so long...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Emotional detachment goes a long way towards preserving your sanity.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Any threats of suicide yet.She better be one of the sexiest women on earth.I have dated a BPD and it was like being with a 3 year old who gives good BJs.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> Wow - thank you for that post.
> Opened my eyes a bit.
> 
> Yes - she seems to be triggered a LOT from something or somewhere else that is not really "in the room with us"...(so to speak)
> ...



This too is eerily familiar.

So many trips home together from her parents began with intense emotions in her... Heading home from our first trip, about 20 years ago, I was stunned to hear anger backed by tears telling me how "wrong" my interaction with her parents (especially her Dad) was during our "Meet the Parents" visit as a serious couple -- and this started to flow out of her before we got to the end of the street her parents' house is on!

And, yes, her parents have enabled her siblings to be very dependent on them. Seems less "enabling" at times, more like keeping them sucked in, and happy to be controlling them. I feel sorry for all of them, at times, because there is a chronic disabling health condition one of the children has had for decades, and I'm sure that inhibited a more healthy independence for them all. But still, the effect is devastating, no matter how or why it came to be.


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