# Rant, vent, realization



## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

Ok. My story is already on here, Shattered. I don't know how to link on my iPhone:-(. Anyhow. This was supposed to be WH three day weekend and we agreed to only talk about things in counseling on Friday. We had a great session on Friday, not entirely comfortable for either of us, but kinda like having the wound opened so you can drain out the infection, ya know? We went out on a silly date Friday night, where we pretended it was a first date--- only we made up silly stuff about ourselves. We laughed and had fun, until I said something "wrong." I mentioned him playing on his phone and asked if he would do that on a real first date. I was trying to be light but it probably didn't come out that way. He got defensive because we had talked about his cell phone in counseling. He said I was always finding fault with him. I told him that I was trying to connect with him and that it was difficult with his phone in front of us face. We made it through, talking about it. 

So today, I asked him if he was still willing to get up in the night to feed our 11 week old son, which he had offered to do on his next long weekend. He said yes. So tonight, we were coming home from a church get together and he asked me what he was supposed to do tonight. I told him to just get up and feed the boy for me. He then asked if I was going to go to work for him on Monday. I told him to never mind. Then I told him that I was disappointed in his response. He starts in about how he never gets to sleep in while I am living the life of luxury, how he has to go to work every day, unlike me. I reminded him that he had offered this for me. We got into a huge argument. I said some mean and hateful hurtful things. I meant for them to hurt. I told him that however much money he had given to the OW, that's how much I wanted for a deposit on an apartment. I told him that if he would walk away from his son, he never had to see me again. I told him that he was selfish and always wanted things his way, with no regards to other peoples wants or needs. And more. He got angry. 

And then I had an epiphany. He WANTS me to be mad at him. It keeps him from having to face his guilt. If I am mad at him, then he can be mad at me! Also, because of his childhood, he feels secure when anger is expressed, and seems to provoke it when he is feeling uneasy. I pointed this out to him. 

He is now sleeping on the tiny twin bed in another room while I enjoy my comfortable queen bed. I feel sad that I engaged and tried to hurt him like he hurt me. But soooo relieved to have had my epiphany!!!! Now I know another reason not to engage!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Good for you...

Sometimes you just need someone to listen. I hope you are doing well. The best revenge you can get is to have a good life. He also wants you to get mad at him, because if you are mad at him, he thinks you still care. If you didn't care, why would you get mad?

I hope you do better and better every day. Good luck to you. Don't let him get away with that crap about getting up to feed the baby! He sure can do it on the weekend!


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I can't completely blame you for being this way as a BS, but to me it sounds a little like you were looking for reasons to be angry with him too. 

I guess other BS's can probably speak to this better than I can, but it seems like you're taking a "here are my demands" approach to reconciliation, where the demands go beyond just restoring trust between you. Maybe other BS's will say that's the right and appropriate thing to do, I've never been in that position. But to me it sounds like something bound to breed resentment and fail.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

:wtf: He resents getting up to feed his own child? 

Dear God! I don't even resent getting up in the night to feed our cat! (Hey, he's 14, so he should be beyond on demand feeding, but what the heck?!)

Your husband needs to adjust his attitude. I *very* rarely use this expression but it really is time for him to man the **** up!


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Good job, Betrayedred. It is not your job to fix broken people. For the sake of your own sanity and your child's stability, you need to get away from people like your WH. These people are emotional black holes. Their capability to suck the light out of even the most lively and vibrant human beings is simply amazing.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

John Lee said:


> I can't completely blame you for being this way as a BS, but to me it sounds a little like you were looking for reasons to be angry with him too.
> 
> I guess other BS's can probably speak to this better than I can, but it seems like you're taking a "here are my demands" approach to reconciliation, where the demands go beyond just restoring trust between you. Maybe other BS's will say that's the right and appropriate thing to do, I've never been in that position. But to me it sounds like something bound to breed resentment and fail.


Here's a clue... she doesn't *need* to look for reasons to be angry with him. She keeps tripping over them, as he has cluttered their marriage up with so many of them!


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

Moving ahead, you're absolutely right on the caring part! He has been asking for days what is wrong with me, and why don't I want to talk more to him, etc. holy cow! Thanks for that insight! 

John, yep there is some anger here. Not gonna deny that. However, if you knew me in person, you would know that I am the most Pollyanna ish person ever. I can find something positive about a pile of dog poo. Seriously. For me to get negative means that I am out of every possibility for positivity. My statements about money and our son were said in an effort to goad him and hurt him, they are not really things I would demand. If anything, I "demand" far too little. Especially in terms of respect. But I do see where it came across that way, and I thank you. It all help me in the future with other interactions. 

Matt--- I have three cats who require a 3 am snack most nights. And I moved our son and myself to another bedroom so that WH could sleep better. Ok ok, some of it was so that I didn't have to sleep next to him, I admit it! 😆

I felt so free when he told me that I was a crazy b$&[email protected], and that he was done. I asked if he wanted a divorce or a dissolution. Just thinking about it made me feel lighter. That can't be a good sign for possible R, can it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Betrayedred said:


> I felt so free when he told me that I was a crazy b$&[email protected], and that he was done. I asked if he wanted a divorce or a dissolution. Just thinking about it made me feel lighter. That can't be a good sign for possible R, can it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It can be. You were feeling trapped, now you are feeling more free. He is not controlling you now. He doesn't know how to get you to react or why you are behaving differently.

Now you can see your marriage for what it is. It is not bad or good. It is your marriage. When you sit down and get over the betrayal, you will go through anger and bitterness. Do NOT let them sit in your heart. Forgive your husband for his DUMBAZZNESS. Do this for you to heal. It is not for him.

You will have a choice if you want to stay or go. He will see you in a new light. He will see your new strength and he may be daunted. You will have to decide whether to stay or go. For now just enjoy who you are becoming. Good luck to you and God Bless!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Betrayedred said:


> Moving ahead, you're absolutely right on the caring part! He has been asking for days what is wrong with me, and why don't I want to talk more to him, etc. holy cow! Thanks for that insight!
> 
> John, yep there is some anger here. Not gonna deny that. However, if you knew me in person, you would know that I am the most Pollyanna ish person ever. I can find something positive about a pile of dog poo. Seriously. For me to get negative means that I am out of every possibility for positivity. My statements about money and our son were said in an effort to goad him and hurt him, they are not really things I would demand. If anything, I "demand" far too little. Especially in terms of respect. But I do see where it came across that way, and I thank you. It all help me in the future with other interactions.
> 
> ...


Yes. If you think of it as you getting rid of the anchor that is dragging you back and you setting sail for new horizons. Recovery in this context means recovering yourself.:smthumbup:


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> :wtf: He resents getting up to feed his own child?
> 
> Dear God! I don't even resent getting up in the night to feed our cat! (Hey, he's 14, so he should be beyond on demand feeding, but what the heck?!)
> 
> Your husband needs to adjust his attitude. I *very* rarely use this expression but it really is time for him to man the **** up!



:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Your husband is a space cadet. Maybe he can change, but he takes entitlement to a whole new level.

I hope your marriage can be saved, but I think you are doing well by being firm with him - it looks like it is the only way he might get the message. But I doubt it...


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

I went to church today, after having yet another run in with WH---why am I so weak this weekend? Marriage counseling? I dunno. Anyhow, he texted me at church, with a video of our son, whom I had left with him, saying that he missed me and to please come home. I ignored it and went out to lunch with friends who know what's going on. He texted me saying,"this is bull...." When I didn't respond to his nice texts. Then he told me son was out of milk and needed me. I told him there was more in the freezer and I would be home in a bit. 

I got home, he left for his side business (auto shop) without either of us saying a word. Then he texted, saying that what I said last night was hurtful. I took a page out of his book and responded that I had already apologized last night. He said yes, I had. Then he ASKED ME OUT TO DINNER! Wtf??? 

I told him, "I don't think so, thank you." And that's the last I have heard. Seriously!??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

FWIW I have heard different sides of this debate about whether in families where one parent works the other parent should always be the one getting up. I think they should share, but I can see maybe the stay-at-home parent taking more of the burden on that. When my wife was not working, she'd go to bed early and I'd stay up late, so then I'd do the midnight feeding by bottle. From 2AM-7AM or so she was on duty, because we both agreed I needed to be rested for my demanding job. Once things settled down a little (past the newborn phase) we started splitting it more evenly, because just getting up once or maybe twice during the night was no big deal. Now she's back at work and there aren't many night wakings anymore, but I'd say we split evenly.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I've been where you are. I'm about 8 months out from D-Day. In MC, but things were so "hot" at first I didn't even want to start MC right away, so we are still in the early stages of it.

Here are some words from Shirley Glass' book NOT Just Friends that I have found helpful: 

"Setbacks are inevitable, so it is important not to confuse a _lapse_ or _relapse_ with a state of total _collapse_. A _lapse_ is a little slip with a quick recovery, and a _relapse_ is a regression to a prior state of distress followed by a slow recovery. In contrast, a _collapse_ is a complete disintegration with little hope of recovery.

Recovery depends on a genuine desire to change, an ability to empathize, and the capacity to self-control. Relapses happen when people under stress get tired, discouraged, fearful, or simply lose focus and revert to previous unconscious patterns. Essentially, they are communications or interactions that go awry. Sooner or later, the betrayed partner will react with bitterness, sarcasm, or blaming to something the involved partner [WS] has honestly shared. Inevitably, at some point, the involved partner won't have the patience to endure one more hysterical outburst. Without meaning to, one or the other will have a poor response and set off a chain reaction of emotional explosions."

Glass also says "it is impossible to avoid relapses" so I haven't beaten myself up about them (for my role). The anger we feel is pretty normal under the circumstances, and my "capacity for self-control" is not super-human. I'm taking a very LONG view of this thing. I know it will take a lot of counseling and a lot of hard work, but it won't be a straight path.

We had a "lapse" recently, and discussed it in MC - and it expanded into a bigger issue. Even though I felt the original episode was a "he started it" sort of deal, once he said we both sometimes made other activities higher priority than our partner, but that HE was much guiltier of doing this than I was, I really softened up and made an effort to look at the original episode through his eyes: I said I could see how what I did that evening could have bothered him, which then led him that evening to make a somewhat snide remark (which I thought was the "he started it" point, though my behavior before the remark was what HE thought started it). At this stage, when he owns more of the responsibility for anything, it helps me to let down my guard and be more likely to empathize, and that helps us to make progress.

Like I said, a LOT of hard work. I hope this helps a little. It's a rough ride, but if you see the "big picture" and you love him and he loves you and there's something in him and in your marriage you think might be worth the effort, hang in there and see where the ride goes. I also recommend How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald. Short book, easy read. You can highlight parts and hand it to him - a how to book. It will help him to "get it" and reduce bone-headed mistakes. Take care, and good luck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

John Lee said:


> FWIW I have heard different sides of this debate about whether in families where one parent works the other parent should always be the one getting up. I think they should share, but I can see maybe the stay-at-home parent taking more of the burden on that. When my wife was not working, she'd go to bed early and I'd stay up late, so then I'd do the midnight feeding by bottle. From 2AM-7AM or so she was on duty, because we both agreed I needed to be rested for my demanding job. Once things settled down a little (past the newborn phase) we started splitting it more evenly, because just getting up once or maybe twice during the night was no big deal. Now she's back at work and there aren't many night wakings anymore, but I'd say we split evenly.


*
Either he wants to bond with his kid, or he doesn't. *


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

Well, I just left. The OW sent me screen shots of their conversations and I love yous, when he swore they weren't talking. I told him that if I found out he was continuing a relationship, I would be done. I reminded him of this and quietly packed my bag. He tried to engage me in a fight, threatened to go to her, threatened to kill himself, begged me to stay, called me crying, told me I didn't care...and I am still gone. All of the sorries in the world can't make me stay at this point. I knew he wasn't truly remorseful. 

Deep breaths. I can and will be ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tainted (Aug 16, 2013)

Save the text and show them to your lawyer. 

He should be the one to have to leave the home. You have a son to take care of.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm so sorry this has happened.

Post an update if you can.

Stay strong. There will be plenty of us rooting for you and thinking of you.


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

I am at a friend's house. He is asking me to come home. He loves me. I am standing strong. I have places to crash until I have enough saved up for an apartment. I can pick up more work, and make more money. 

I don't want to stay in the house. It's a rental and not where I would choose to live. I have a support group meeting this week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You are completely right. You can and will be OK.


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

Tainted, my state is a no fault state. It won't do me any good to save the texts. But thanks for the advice. After work tomorrow, I will be looking at apartments. He tried to give me the whole, "you think it's ok to just pack up and leave whenever you want," guilt trip. I countered with, "you think it's ok to have an affair and lie about it." Very unemotionally. I just want to be done. He keeps telling me that he wants to feel loved by me. And I tell him that as long as he had/had her, he can't accept my love. At this point, I think a divorce is the only way, and if he wants to try again after he has worked on himself, AND if I am still available by then, then we can try again. But I just want to be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Wow. I'm so sorry. I was hoping he might get his act together. But he had just taken it underground. You are doing the right thing. 

Threatened to kill himself? Has he shown other signs of depression or some other mental illness? Does he need to be protected from himself?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

If he threatens to kill himself, report it. If it's real, he'll get the help he needs, if it isn't, he'll never make that manipulative mistake again.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

We're here for you, 24/7.


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

So today, he had lunch with OW, who then texted me, angry, because he ended things. She was mad at me. Lol. He asked if I would come home and I still said no. I told him that he needs to have a plan for accountability, transparency, and be able to prove to me that he is telling the truth this time. He said ok. He called one of our friends who we are in a small group with, and is going to meet with him to discuss a plan for accountability. He offered to leave our house, and said that he would do whatever I needed him to do in order to try to regain my trust. It sounds good, but I just don't know. 

On another note---I should have left five weeks ago, stuck to my guns then, instead of being wishy washy. I think finally being able to disconnect and disengage and calmly tell him that I had to do what is best for me. He told me last night that he realized I would be ok, because I was stronger than him. He said he finally saw that he is broken and is going to end up alone---and I will walk away and still be happy. I tell ya, doing the 180 and taking care of yourself and loving yourself makes a huge difference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Hang tough now. Keep up the 180. It will give you the strength to make the best decisions for yourself.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Betrayedred said:


> So today, he had lunch with OW, who then texted me, angry, because he ended things. She was mad at me. Lol. He asked if I would come home and I still said no. I told him that he needs to have a plan for accountability, transparency, and be able to prove to me that he is telling the truth this time. He said ok. He called one of our friends who we are in a small group with, and is going to meet with him to discuss a plan for accountability. He offered to leave our house, and said that he would do whatever I needed him to do in order to try to regain my trust. It sounds good, but I just don't know.
> 
> On another note---I should have left five weeks ago, stuck to my guns then, instead of being wishy washy. I think finally being able to disconnect and disengage and calmly tell him that I had to do what is best for me. He told me last night that he realized I would be ok, because I was stronger than him. He said he finally saw that he is broken and is going to end up alone---and I will walk away and still be happy. I tell ya, doing the 180 and taking care of yourself and loving yourself makes a huge difference.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well then keep doing it, and stop letting him break down your resolve. Do you really think he fundamentally changed overnight? Don't you think it would be wise to sit back and watch his actions (not words, talk is cheap) for a while?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Betrayedred said:


> So today, he had lunch with OW, who then texted me, angry, because he ended things. She was mad at me. Lol. He asked if I would come home and I still said no. I told him that he needs to have a plan for accountability, transparency, and be able to prove to me that he is telling the truth this time. He said ok. He called one of our friends who we are in a small group with, and is going to meet with him to discuss a plan for accountability. He offered to leave our house, and said that he would do whatever I needed him to do in order to try to regain my trust. It sounds good, but I just don't know.
> 
> On another note---I should have left five weeks ago, stuck to my guns then, instead of being wishy washy. I think finally being able to disconnect and disengage and calmly tell him that I had to do what is best for me. He told me last night that he realized I would be ok, because I was stronger than him. He said he finally saw that he is broken and is going to end up alone---and I will walk away and still be happy. I tell ya, doing the 180 and taking care of yourself and loving yourself makes a huge difference.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was mad at you. :rofl:

And yes, he is broken all right. THAT is a really interesting choice of words. After the suicide threat, I'm still wondering if he's got some mental health issues. Any pattern of down moods, irritability, anxiety, poor or excessive sleep, appetite being poor or excessive, obsessive behaviors of some kind? I ask because my WS has "issues." It is NOT an excuse!! But there are many factors that increase vulnerability to having an affair, and this is just one more.

You're doing GREAT. So glad to hear the 180 has worked so well for you!!


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Betrayedred said:


> I went to church today, after having yet another run in with WH---why am I so weak this weekend? Marriage counseling? I dunno. Anyhow, he texted me at church, with a video of our son, whom I had left with him, saying that he missed me and to please come home. I ignored it and went out to lunch with friends who know what's going on. He texted me saying,"this is bull...." When I didn't respond to his nice texts. Then he told me son was out of milk and needed me. I told him there was more in the freezer and I would be home in a bit.
> 
> I got home, he left for his side business (auto shop) without either of us saying a word. Then he texted, saying that what I said last night was hurtful. I took a page out of his book and responded that I had already apologized last night. He said yes, I had. Then he ASKED ME OUT TO DINNER! Wtf???
> 
> ...


This tit for tat game is going to backfire on you. 

You need to decide, do you want to seriously reconcile or do you want to divorce. 

What you are doing is the classic approach avoidance thing. It will backfire. 

What is happening is he is running and you pursue, you run away and he pursues. This is likely a long standing destructive pattern in your marriage. 

You need to address this in counseling pronto. 

Both of you are acting very immature. 

BTW: If he is working two jobs and you are a stay at home mom, you should not be complaining about handling the lion's share of mom duties. 

Would you prefer your husband were a lazy Mr. Mom who had a part time job, and was an excellent dad, while you held two jobs. 

Get real. Figure out what you want. If you hate being a stay at home mom, let him quit one of his jobs, YOU get a job, too, and then the two of you can split household and child-rearing duties equally.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Betrayedred said:


> Well, I just left. The OW sent me screen shots of their conversations and I love yous, when he swore they weren't talking. I told him that if I found out he was continuing a relationship, I would be done. I reminded him of this and quietly packed my bag. He tried to engage me in a fight, threatened to go to her, threatened to kill himself, begged me to stay, called me crying, told me I didn't care...and I am still gone. All of the sorries in the world can't make me stay at this point. I knew he wasn't truly remorseful.
> 
> Deep breaths. I can and will be ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The way you were both acting, this reengagement with the OW was inevitable 

As, I said, you are BOTH acting very immature and need some serious counseling. 

Some very qualified infidelity counselors will see a couple in infidelity crisis daily for a few weeks. That really helps, IMO.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Betrayedred said:


> Tainted, my state is a no fault state. It won't do me any good to save the texts. But thanks for the advice. After work tomorrow, I will be looking at apartments. He tried to give me the whole, "you think it's ok to just pack up and leave whenever you want," guilt trip. I countered with, "you think it's ok to have an affair and lie about it." Very unemotionally. I just want to be done. He keeps telling me that he wants to feel loved by me. And I tell him that as long as he had/had her, he can't accept my love. At this point, I think a divorce is the only way, and if he wants to try again after he has worked on himself, AND if I am still available by then, then we can try again. But I just want to be done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, this is so sad, this is the classic pursue reject then turnabout pursue reject pattern. 

It appears to be a stalemate in your marriage. 

One of you needs to grow up and break the pattern. 

If you want a divorce, without even trying, maybe he was picking up realistic cues that you did not love him.

Do you love him? 

Seems to me you are all too glad to push him away. 

If so, that's okay, but be honest with yourself.


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

He and I both have ADHD, we are medicated, though I am not medicated to the best level because of being a nursing mom. Most of our fights have occurred when our meds are at their lowest level, which is something that we just discussed in counseling. In addition, he has Generalized Anxiety Disorder and depression. 

Remorseful strayer. Thank you for your honesty. You hit some things squarely on the head. The push away/pursue the other element has always been something that we have struggled with. The tit for tat is something that we have just begun to address in counseling. We are both highly competitive people and want to have the last word. It's even worse when our impulse control is not at a good place. 

However, perhaps you didn't read my thread with my story... I have most certainly tried to make things work. We had a false R for months, including marriage counseling, IC for me, and the birth of a baby. I tried to be kind. I tried to be understanding. I tried to attend to his needs, and it still wasn't good enough. After the second Dday, I let him know that I could not continue to be lied to and what my boundaries of staying in this home and working on our marriage were. One of the things I told him was that if he continued the relationship with her and lied to me about it, I would have to separate myself from this situation for my own sanity. He didn't like it, but agreed not to lie. I understood that ending things with her would entail more communication and that he could not control her actions or words. He agreed not to lie or hide things from me. And then I found out five weeks later that he had. While I was not a saint during those five weeks, because the emotion of the betrayal was very fresh, along with being only 6 weeks post birth, I was trying. I was trying to the point that I was giving up my health and strength. 

I do love him. But I am scared. I have been lied to more than I care to admit. I feel the need to protect myself and am not sure what that looks like, except for pushing him away or walking away.

Also, he does not work two jobs---he has a shop for side work and is trying to get it off the ground as a business. He determines what and how much work he does in this capacity. I am involved in this, as far as the administrative process goes. I don't work because he asked me to give up my job, and we have an infant. However, I did go ahead and get a part time job, against his wishes. I don't expect him to do much around the house, but helping with the children is something I do expect. They are not chores, they are human beings. And I did expect more help when I was pregnant and had a high risk pregnancy. We have five children between our blended family, and I work 24/7. Having a break every now and then is NOT unreasonable.


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