# This is definitely most likely the end



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Quite some time has passed since my last post here – a bit more than four months.

If you want to read up, please go to this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/324721-end-i-believe.html

Currently I am very depressed with my situation. I don’t know if what I want is right or wrong or if I want the right thing or if I am blinding myself and deceiving myself with logic instead of feelings.

My parents and my siblings fully support and encourage me but I am so paranoid I fear that they may have a hidden agenda or are just telling me what they think I want to hear. I assume – in my clearer moments – that this thought is stupid, but as I said, it is a difficult time.

But then I decided to seek help again where I know that I will find it and decided to write my feelings down. In preparation I read my last thread (see above link) to make sure I continue at the correct moment in time for you.

Reading my old thread was exactly what I needed. To read through it was very spirit lifting. The things that worried me five months ago have not changed. 

Two weeks after my last post I have hiked through France for 32 days and after that I saw clearly. The common ground is not there anymore, the mindset is totally different and I can neither cope with her (controlling) behavior nor can I keep on pretending to be someone else just to please her.

I am determined to leave her now once and for all. I want to be free of her. I would like a friendly relationship and a good parenting arrangement, but I want to be free from her “spell” (for lack of any better word). But still I love her. 

I am tormented with guilt and insecurity about if I should really leave. By reading the things I wrote five months ago I could reflect on the current situation and see that nothing has changed. Things actually got a bit worse.

I have started my new job 200 miles away from home. Fortunately, I can work from home on Fridays with no questions asked. I am sure I can work more often from home when it is needed (by me).

Why is this important? When I leave, I will buy a flat close to my kids. I will live there at least four nights out of 7 every week. This will make living at my working location cheaper (3 days a week, but I will travel about twice a month so I will need an average of 8 nights in a motel every month).

Most importantly, by getting a flat close by the boys can drop in Friday through Sunday, they can stay over night and I am capable of doing things on short notice with them. It is also possible to go to the movies on Monday evenings or things like that. That is important.

I will also be able to keep an eye on my wife and help out with the house if this is needed.

I hope the divorce will be peaceful. I am fully prepared to let my wife stay in our house for another five years while I pay the mortgage. Then the boys are grown up and we can sell the house. This should than pay for a small flat for my wife so that she is financially secure for the rest of her life.

Well, that is the plan.

Only I need more courage. I have been delaying the separation ever since my return from France on June 4th because 

- I wanted to start my new job without distraction (1st of July)
- my wife needed to finish her re-education (Aug 5th). She would never have passed the exams if I separated prior to the tests.
- my parents wanted to see the grand children (did Aug 13 – 15) – who could deny them that?
- we had summer vacation – probably the last one with the elder son (last week)

Now it is time but I cannot summon the courage yet.

I fear her reaction, that I cannot handle it. I fear that I am not strong enough to actually tell her it is over.

She thinks we are progressing. On Sunday she told me day to day life was much better now. It is – for her – because after France I went into a kind of “ignore it because it will be over soon”-mode. I don’t react to most of her behavior anymore. I just try to kill the time and avoid conflicts. Btw. this strategy is a conversation-killer because almost every subject is emotionally charged for her.

I am currently going through a very tough period. The only joy is the time I spend with my boys. I silently cried during my vacation because I know that the elder son will not come along for a vacation for quite a while. He does not even want to come along in Aug ’17 for a two week trip to the Western U.S. for the eclipse! So sad! On the other hand – my vision of me with my younger son riding in a convertible through the U.S., that is a very happy thought. We’ll have so much fun and enjoy ourselves! - I cannot imagine having any fun with my wife joining us.

The last vacation proved this again. She is very aggressive and uncertain at the same time. Always complaining about things instead of seeing the beauty of the world. 

Also she always blames me and the boys that she cannot follow our discussions. Well, doing higher math is difficult, yes, but we also talk video games. Even though neither she nor I play them, I can discuss them with the boys. She just says she doesn’t know the games so we keep her from joining our discussion by discussing those games. That’s rubbish, she just needs to listen, pay attention and then she will be up to speed pretty soon.

I know I want to leave and I have to leave, but how do I get the courage to actually do it? I can give you a really long list of things that just drive me crazy that I will not be able to fix and that she does not even acknowledge to be potentially questionable, let alone dead wrong. But I still love her and don’t know if I can actually tell her that I will leave.

I know I have been crying and whining a lot on this forum. When I decided to post today, I wanted to describe everything again. But then I read my last thread. It opened my eyes again and helped me see things clearer.

I hope I can work his out very soon.

If any of you have some good advice on how to summon the courage to say goodbye – I really appreciate any suggestion. 

Regards
asdfjkl


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Tell her you've tried hard but it's just not working. 

Be prepared for her to try everything to make that not happen. She will probably make lots of promises she won't keep. 

If you're determined this is what you want then you're going to be really strong and not backslide because there's nothing easy about the process. It's tough and there's just no getting around that. 

Good luck!


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you.

The tough part is that when Inthinknabiut my situation Indonclearly understand that there is only one course of action. I then believe that this is actually best for both of us.
But as soon as Inlet my (intellectual) guard down, the feeling of doing something evil, bad, egocentric etc. creeps in. I start to waiver again and be insecure. Furthermore the fear of being the mean guy is terrible. I am afraid of what my children will say. I am not sure they - especially the younger boy (15) - will understand. When left for three weeks, he asked "why can't you two just stop arguing?"

All of this makes me feel very unhappy and insecure and depressed. I know I have to face the truth, but I just can't bring myself to say it out loud.

It's terrible.

Regards

Asdfjkl


----------



## Married27years (Jun 16, 2016)

It sounds like your situation is improving. You are clearly indecisive about whether to divorce or not. I'm sure your children are playing a big part in your indecisiveness. I suggest you stay in the marriage until your children are grown. That's the least selfish choice you can make. I doubt you will be happier living alone.


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Married27years said:


> I'm sure your children are playing a big part in your indecisiveness.


Yes



> I suggest you stay in the marriage until your children are grown. That's the least selfish choice you can make. I doubt you will be happier living alone.


Well, I don't think this is an option. In my marriage I have come to a Point where - even though I deeply feel for her - the walking on egg-shells, trying to avoid emotionally charged topics, always wondering how to predict her reactions, how to behave in order to minimize criticism is just too much.

Let me give you just one brand new example which I am thankful for because it illustrates my Problem quite well.

I am currently on a Business trip in Spain. The hotel is directly at the beach.
So yesterday evening I laid on the beach in the sand and talked on the phone for one hour to my sister and another hour to my brother. Then it was already 9:30 p.m. and the beach was basically deserted.
I called my wife. I used headphones for all calls at the beach. 

Her first question was "Where are you?"
I replied: "At the beach, lying in the sand."
She: "Why?"
I "Why not? it's nice."
She "Why are you not in the hotel?"
I "Because it is nicer here."
She "But you always call from the Hotel. Why do you change your habits?"
I "Because I felt like being at the beach and it is nicer than in the Hotel"

Then she said that a women in the background was so loud that she could not hear me. And the waves make such a noise that she can't hear me either.
I told her that I don't know what to do about it, I don't think it is loud. I asked her what she expects me to do. No real reply. Only after the second attempt by her tellling me that she can't hear me the line - on her side alone - got really bad. I did not have any reception problems. Suddenly, the line went dead.

I immidiaely called my sister to check on noise levels and she told me there was no problem. Waves are barely audible and background talking could be heard but at a very low Level that did not intefere with our talking. There was no bad reception either.

I might be paranoid, but the circumstances point to the fact that my wife - again - could not accept that I had chosen to do something outside of her circle of influence. Laying in the sand of a beach does not - in my opinion - pose any threat, show disrespect or could actually viewed as negative. 

She wanted me to return to the Hotel. Why? Because she (subconciously) wants to be in control. I am not allowed to do what I want, even in such meaningless, simple issues like whare would I be when calling her. 

Of course I went to the Hotel because I did not want a confrontation knowing that this will only be a Problem for another 96 hours.

Maybe this example shows you why i cannot Keep up the facade anymore and need to go.

What do you think?

Regards

Markus


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Three hours ago I moved out.
I took the blame for everything to make the exit easier. I did not want any fight about guillt.

My wife took the news very badly. 
She told me it was also her fault, but later on it was me again who did not open up, did not stand up against her, did not suffer through her outbreaks in order to make her understand everything ...

I then talked to each of my kids alone (from youngest to oldest).
My wife interruppted this with each kid, I stood my ground and asked her politely but determined to leave the room. She did each time.

My daughter (25) took it badly first but seems to understand after I had talked to her. Her biggest worry is that my wife will not hold together and that it would be my daughter's problem to keep the household running and to support her mother. I told her that my wife can be strong if needed. She will get over it.
My daughter also told me in a text after I left that it seems like I have chosen the easy way. I told her that it is not easy for me to be seperated from my three kids most of the time. Even though usually all of us were together only during the two meals during the day - breakfast and dinner - I will terribly miss these and my children.

The youngest (15) does not understand.
The elder son (17) said he did not see it coming, but it does not surprise him much. He offered me five drawings he did during our vacation two weeks ago. I told him I will hang them when I have my flat. Now I will go from hotel to hotel and am afraid of loosing them.

Tomorrow I will go to have dinner with the boys at a kebap-place so I can talk with them or just chat. Whatevver they want.
After that I promised my wife that the both of us will go for a walk and talk.

At the moment, I feel as if I had made the biggest mistake in my life. Even though I recall all my reasons - which are right - I still feel like I betrayed my wife. The person I love and care for but with whom I cannot live together anymore. We have become too different. She claims that it only needs a little more work, but I have tried for months and she has tried too (she is more open and has gotten two friends to hang out with from time to time - but towards me her behaviour got more and more agressive) but I have finally given up. She cannot accept my behaviour and I cannot live with her reaction to my behaviour. I did not tell her that I cannot tolerate her behaviour either (I saw no point in making things more difficult). But I am not willing anymore to sacrafice my personal freedom completely. As a friend once put it, "I also have the right to be happy". My councellor also tells me that sometimes I need to be egoistic. 

Leaving today did not come on a wimp. I had been thinking about the problems between my wife and me ever since May last year. Before that I felt unhappier and unhappier, but could not put a name to the problem. I have left for three weeks in March which felt good, but I returned for good reasons. 

Now I decided to finally break this routine of endless self-sacrifice. My councellor also said that it seems that my need to make my wife happy is like an addiction. I cannot live without her being happy, but making her happy is almost impossible if I don't suppress all my needs all the time.

The only way to get rid of an addiction is withdrawel. But it seems so wrong. I am so unsure. Have I done the right thing. Her sweet talking about we could try again - this time even harder - my feelings for her and the knowledge that I will now loose her. It is just terrible.

I did not understand why people stayed in bad relationships until about one year ago. Now I do not know if my feeling of regret, loss, guilt is just a normal reaction because of the gravity of my decision or is it an objective truth that will tell me what I did was wrong? I am in danger of going back. But this would be an illogical move!

It is very hard not to take the phone and call her and telling her everything was a mistake. I hope it wasn't. 

I hope I had not pushed myself into something that was easier (escape) than doing the right thing (stay and work).

Oh my, It is so confusing.

Regards

asdfjkl


----------



## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Now that you've pulled the plug you cannot go back. 

If you do she'll realize that you're not serious about leaving and she'll be indescribably more difficult to deal with. 

You've started down a one way street and there's no turning around you need to see it through.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Well you've done the hardest part. Do NOT let her talk you back. Nothing will change and you will be even more miserable, having to work back up to this point all over again. Make sure you create space for your kids in your new place, its important for them so that they can feel that it is their home as well. They will go through an adjustment period, its important that you be completely honest with them about everything and be sure to answer all of their questions. You and your STBX were not giving them a good example of a healthy relationship...they are surprised by you leaving because I'm sure they thought you never would, based on your history. 

You have done the right thing, stop with the guilt. Your wife sounds miserable, you should have left quite a while ago.


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you.

Despite her usual threats that if I leave she will break all contact and move away her current line is:
"I will support you, I will wait for you, I will help you find an appartment etc." Interesting change of heart.

I feel guilty. My younger son (15) allegedly did not sleep at all tonight. I cannot imagine that but I will talk to him.

I am not moving back but at the moment my house is the only place to watch my son's favourite shows.
My sons and I are going to watch an episode of Battle Bots today and after that one episode of House M.D. with the younger one.
Then I accepted to be there for dinner as well, after that I will leave for work and a family birthday. I will not return before Sunday evening. I will not do anything then. Only on Monday I will bring the older son (17) to the airport, he has a school trip.

The younger - as expected - does not (yet) understand why I cannot live at home anymore. I tried to explain it to him and during our discussion we touched on a few examples of the problems. He got those but still thinks that I should try harder. 

I had a talk with my wife yesterday evening alone in a quiet place. I could not tell her that it is completely over, I said I have no master plan but for the next months there will be no activities together with her. I will be there for our children, I will take care of her but I need quiet and space. She understand (at least that's what she says) and wants to help me find an appartment.
She asked for our "special needs" and I replied that sex is not going to happen. I learnt this lesson and will not do it again. She did not like that answer.

But during this discussion again it was obivous that in her eyes I need to shange. I said several times that there are some points I don't want to change and she claimed that she accepts that - and already has accepted most of these. I can tell you that she has accepted almost nothing so far. Up until day before yesterday my behaviour was "irratic, unreliable, stupid, selfish, childish etc." I have to grant her that the selfish part has some merit. I need to be selfish in order to save myself from getting lost. But believe me, I did not take much to earn her wrath from time to time.

She offered that I could move back until I found a flat. Although this sounds very tempting (I would take my own room) I will decline. If I am too close, i am again not free. As tough as it is for me and my kids, I will not go back.

I have not yet spoken with my family. I just did not feel like it. I am not sure what I feel and I have no idea what to tell them when they ask. They know that this was supposed to be the "big" weekend and I am sur they are anxious to know if I did it or not and how i feel, but I am not ready to discuss this because i don't know for myself.

Interstingly, I did not cry much and did not feel sorry very often. I did not feel elated either. More like a bit unsettled and empty. I am expecting the gravity of what I have done to kick in any moment but nothing happens. 

Yesterday I went for a 6 mile run and even then I did not think much about the seperation. I just enjoyeed the run, the view and thought about some work-issues. Strange.

I went to buy some new running shoes in France (it's only 80 miles), knowing that my wife likes to go there too. And I thought, well, this will hurt her but I am doing nothing wrong. I go there because I want to and while that might be a problem for her, this potential problem is not mine. Sounds like a start  

Regards

asdfjkl

P.S.: Writing this down - as always - helps a lot


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I know that was a difficult thing to do. 

You are feeling unsettled because it's a major life change. That's complicated by the fact that you are a Giver. I was as well. Those of us who give at any cost find there's a high price to pay for that because we get lost in the process. 

You're on the right track.


----------



## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

asdfjkl said:


> Despite her usual threats that if I leave she will break all contact and move away her current line is:
> "I will support you, I will wait for you, I will help you find an appartment etc." Interesting change of heart.


Been there unfortunately. She's giving what you are asking for in the hopes that you will suddenly see how nice she is and question your decision to leave as well as fear on her part, she'll do anything to stay connected even if it means helping you reach your goal which at the moment is to get away from her, as ironic as that may seem.

Once she accepts that you're not coming back you are going to see the really nasty side of her, so expect it and be prepared. It probably will stay that way (with some back and forth waffling on her part)until months or years after the divorce is final, and then, and only then will the emotions start to cool and you can once again explore the possibility of a civil, even friendly relationship with your former spouse.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Stop interacting with her. Stop trying t to take care of her, she doesn't need you. She is manipulative and you are weak. You need to come to terms with your own decision and the reality of your situation. She won't until you do. She doesn't give a sh!t about you but likes having you around to control, bully, use and manipulate. 

You will not get stronger until you focus on yourself instead of her. Your life is not ending, just changing.


----------



## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

^^This too.

Also I fixed this for you:



asdfjkl said:


> I said I have no master plan but for the next months there will never again be activities together with her. I will always be there for our children, but I will no longer take care of her other than financially but even that's not going to last forever so start looking for a job


----------



## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

asdfjkl said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you are already a very smart man and will be very happy to be out from under this controlling person. God speed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

I hope I will be happy. Thank you.

It is very hard to read her texts (I don't read them right away but once in a while I have to catch up since we do have children together).

She is very understanding and reminds me of the good times we had. We did have those and it brings tears to my eyes to read this.

I read a lot of Support from all of you and I think I believe I am doing the right Thing. But is so hard to listen to all the promises of things getting better if we only try and that I was right with almost everything I said.
I wish there would be hope, I believe there is None. But keeping this believe is so terribly hard. 
When I remember how we entered the duch beach for the first time, or how happy she was when she took of with a plane for the first time. All These things will be gone.

I do miss my Kids but I don't want to herass them. They are 15 and 17 and want to be kept alone most of the time. How do I Keep a Balance between keeping up to date / being interestend and just annoying them with my texts, ideas or suggestions of things to do?

Yesterday I fell sick. Doctor says I caught a Virus. I believe it is just the stress that has now broken through. I stay in bad (not at home) for the next two to three days.

I have lost so much. It is hard to Keep up the believe that it was worth the gain. I know I have to suck through this for some time, but that knowledge does not make it easier.

What if I am wrong?

Regards

asdfjkl


----------



## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Then separate and see what happens. I will say things got so much better, easier between me and my spouse when I moved out. That was after the first few months when he was very mad at me. But now we get along well. In other words, I'm thinking the environment is too toxic and both of you are too stuck in your current dance/behaviors patterns. Once you can get away from that, both of you will have clearer heads.

That's what I did, anyway. Now, my husband and I aren't back together, but if he keeps working on himself we may be one day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Hello,

It is now almost two weeks since I moved out.
Despite my fears of everything going south if I leave my wife is behaving interestingly smooth. 

In the months before if I left she threatened to
1) move away from the City we live in - Now she will stay put in our house and wait for me "no matter how long it will take"
2) cut all communication with me - Now she is eager to communicate and complains if I don't text regularely or do not text at least "good morning" and "good night"
3) block any idea of me buving an appartement - Now she is helping me finding one and willingly commits to signing all necessary paperwork

I am quite happy about 1) and 3)
I do not agree with 2) and I told her this (kind of mildly) but I do not text regularely and do not send good mornings/nights to her. The Kids do get a "good night" every day.

I text with her on an irregualr Basis.

I have not told her yet that this is definetely the end. I cannot bring myself to do this because I need her goodwill for a few more weeks (until the appartment is bought and paid) and I fear the ensuing reaction.

I feel much better most of the time because I do not need to justify my life anymore.

I miss her sometimes because - apart from the toxic behaiour of either of us - I like to do things with her. The other day I saw an add for a play and thought that this would be fun for us. But I discarded the idea because I know I need to increase my emotional detachment.

I have spent time with the kids on the weekends (watching House MD and Battlebots) but at least we did something. I was there for dinner on Saturdays and Sundays.

This Monday my wife and I brought my elder son to the airport. This went smoothly.
At the end of the drive though, my wife told me that she would like me to text her after I arrived at my job (200 mile drive). After she saw my uneasy gaze she asked me if this would be too much for me. I summoned my strength and actually said "yes, it is too much". Later, after I had left she phoned for some phony reason but I took the call. I explained to her that this question about an arrival confirmation text is a perfect example of her behaviour. i don't want to always confirm my whereabouts or text my happy arrival. If something happened, she would be informed (my phone lists her as the emergency contact).

I know I am far away from a real separation, but I believe I am on a good path.

Last Sunday she asked about our America trip in August (total eclipse on Aug 21!). I told her that I don't know yet if I will take her along. This was very hard for me because it took years to convince her to step onto a plane for a long haul flight, a trip to the US is simply a great experience and the idea has been there for over a year now. But I managed to show her that I may not bring her along. I am pretty proud I atleast managed to do that and not pretend that this is still certain.

In reality, she had been designed out of my travel plan a few months ago already. Only problem: my younger son immediately said that of course she will come along. In January or February I will have to lay the Cards onto the table once and for all. I will only take my son. If he will come along only if his other comes along then I need to cancel the trip completely. I will not spend 15.000 USD for two weeks of awkwardness between me and my wife. She will hope for a reunion and I just want to get away. I think it is safe to assume that this is not a good Basis for a Relaxing and enjoyable vacation.

My dream is my son and I in a convertable having two weeks of fun in the US. I hope this will work out.

The appartment I found is perfect. It is a ten minute walk away from our house so the kids could come over without any problems - no transportation issues at all. When I move in, there's a lot to rework but then I have a base to stay from Thursday night through Monday morning close to the kids and have enough time and space to take care of my kids and myself.

As a show of trust I have not moved any money away. If I did, I think hell would break loose. And I actually trust my wife that she will not take it and be gone.

Thank you all for supporting me.

I am still not certain that I did the right thing, but I am much more convinced now.

Regards

asdfjkl


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Congrats, you are making progress! Keep working on detaching from her. Remind yourself that she does not want you back because she loves you and cherishes you, she wants you back because she has a need to control you. She only seeks to use you, and that is just sick. She is a master manipulator. 

Keep moving forward, better days are ahead!


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I know this was very hard for you but you've done a great job!

She will likely continue her manipulation but you're ready for it and strong enough to ignore it. It will take time but that's on your side now.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

How are things going @asdfjkl ?


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Hello 3X

I just spotted your question. That is very kind of you to ask, I hought the thread was dead.

It's been another two weeks and things kind of progress. I have moved into my new apartment and now I am trying to work out a plan with the craftsmen to refurbish basically everything. The prior owners had been neglecting their property a bit and they had been real DIY-noobs 

But that's not a problem.

I still have problems detaching from my wife. I more or less spend Friday through Sunday from breakfast (12 am) to dinner at home. Helping prepare the meals and then watching movies with my sons.

Last weekend though I took Sunday"off". After breakfast I only watched one episode of House MD with my son and then went to a spa. Afterwards I spent two hours shootng photos at the airport and of the planes approaching at night. Then I went to my apartment. That was very relaxing. 

Monday (bank holiday here) I was back in the old routine but left early after dinner. My wife asked if I had any plans because I leave that early. I said I wanted to go to sleep early.

Friday' I will now spend playing chess in the evening.

Being at home is pretty awkward when I am alone with my wife. She is always waiting for me to touch her or give signs of affection. I try hard not to do this, but as a greeting and farewell I still hug her.

I turn her overt sexual offers down by not reacting on them. I'd love to engage with her but don't because I know that i shouldn't. This would send a ray of hope which I don't want to send and I think it morally debateble to profit from her desperate longing. I don't long for her, I just know that it is great to sleep with her. But satisfaction is now lying in my own hands (literally , sorry, couldn't resist that play of words  )

My wife is more or less asking everyday - when I am home - how I plan the future. I deny having plans because I cannot bring myself to tell her that there is no future for us anymore. Two reasons for that: I fear her reaction and I need her signature on the contract for the apartment and he mortgage. 

After that, I will have run out of excuses to delay the moment of truth any further.

I still doubt I did the right thing, but those doubts get smaller.

My wife told me that she sees how I am suffering and that I need help because I am obviously "mentally sick". Inwardly I did smile at that, because I believe I am quiet okay mentally - only my "awakening" to my own needs and me going through with taking care of me is not what suits her. Hence I must be sick. (So what, if it helps her, I don't care)

My wife complains that I
- do not text a lot
- am too detached
- do not touch her
- that I went buying shoes without her
- don't ask what she's been up to
- don't tell her on my own what I have been up to

She has a point with every single item and it is tough not to touch her or ask her where she had been. I am just so used to doing it. But to be honest, I don't care about that - and haven't for quiet some time already.

She is upset that I will run a marathon on Sunday without her being there. I don't want her there, it is MY day. My parents and my brother will be there at the start and finish line (it's from one city to another). I will spend the weekend in my hometown. It's gonna be relaxing fun - as far as running 26 miles can be viewed as relaxing fun 

My wife helps me with the flat which I am greatful for because she just OWNS cleaning! 

She also regularly tells me that she misses our long walks but none of her friends feels like walking. So if I wanted to, she would come along if I went for a walk. So far I have not caved in 

She also wants to go to dinner at a restaurant with me. I unenthusiasticaly voiced an ok for that. But I'd like to do this after the ink is dry under the contract and mortgage for the apartment.

I have quit looking for a job near by. With the apartment I am 500 yards away and I stay there from Thursday night through Monday morning. I work from home on Fridays and due to lots of business trips I will be in the apartment more often then at the described times because those trips usually last two or three days so I will leave on Tuesday and have the Monday as an extra day in home office.

I have two Options with my job:
A) the Project I work on will be a success - then I will have lots of fun and less to work
Or 
B) the project meets too much resistance - I will lay back, do enough to not get noticed negatively (pretty simple in this company) and just enjoy life for the next five years 

I am cool with both options 

That's it in a (big) nutshell.

Regards

asdfjkk

P. S. : I wrote this on a tiny mobile phone in bed, so forgive the typos. I will do a spellcheck tomorrow at my office. The font here is very small and I am shortsighted. Not a perfect match


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

@asdfjkl, this was from your first post. 



asdfjkl said:


> I am determined to leave her now once and for all. I want to be free of her. I would like a friendly relationship and a good parenting arrangement, but I want to be free from her “spell” (for lack of any better word).


Your latest update doesn't give me the sense that you're wanting rid of her at all. 

I understand things need to be done delicately here, but why are you engaging her as much as you are? I'd suggest you not be in the house with her if it's just the two of you and your kids aren't there. Get out and do something away from home. I'd also suggest you ask her to stop cleaning your place. It's not her job and it will create false hope that you'll appreciate her for it and things will turn around. It could eventually be used as covert contract lighter fuel to burn you. 

Staying cordial is great, but what you're describing goes beyond that IMO. Re-evaluate what you want. If I was her, I'd be pretty confused by the signals. 

I'm glad you're making what feels like progress. Keep us posted.


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Satya said:


> @asdfjkl, this was from your first post.
> 
> 
> 
> Your latest update doesn't give me the sense that you're wanting rid of her at all.


One small step at a time.



> I understand things need to be done delicately here, but why are you engaging her as much as you are?


I am not engaging her, she is engaging herself and I fear that if I turn her down the delicate balance I need for the signatures will collapse.
I did not ask her to do any of those things.



> I'd suggest you not be in the house with her if it's just the two of you and your kids aren't there.


The Kids are in the house, but not in the same room as we are.
Preparing breakfast and dinner provides a Feeling of normality for the children. 
I have bought her a car so that she can do the big weekly shopping trip along (currently we do it together) 
Apart from these chores I do not spend time alone with my wife in my spare time.

On Fridays I work from home in the study and she keeps me pretty much alone.



> Get out and do something away from home. I'd also suggest you ask her to stop cleaning your place. It's not her job and it will create false hope that you'll appreciate her for it and things will turn around. It could eventually be used as covert contract lighter fuel to burn you.


I don't understand the last sentence. Can you explain this to me?



> Staying cordial is great, but what you're describing goes beyond that IMO. Re-evaluate what you want. If I was her, I'd be pretty confused by the signals.


I agree. I know what I want but am bound by the need for the signatures and my unability to be open and cruel to her. I always try to soften the blows. 
As I said, once the things are signed, I should be in a much better position.



> I'm glad you're making what feels like progress. Keep us posted.


Thank you. Your input is a bit painful but I have to admit that you are right - and I know and have known this.

Regards

asdfjkl


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

asdfjkl said:


> I hope I will be happy. Thank you.
> 
> It is very hard to read her texts (I don't read them right away but once in a while I have to catch up since we do have children together).
> 
> ...



Her being nice and understanding is more likely a type of control method of manipulation. hard to leave someone that is kind and understanding and yet, when things are safe, she is irrational. Keep that in mind. Consider this, when she does not feel threatened by you detaching, how does she tend to behave? Before you left, she gave you what you wanted to hear and I would not be surprised if she uses the children against you. Keep all text adn voice mails for the likelyhood of irrational behavior.

You must protect yourself, even if that means against loved ones. You will also gain the necessary space to work on yoursel f and to stay means to detach anyways if you want to stay mentally and emotionally stable. In essence, it is a way of causing self-harm.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

She is still interjecting herself in your life. For whatever reason, she needs control to help her deal with whatever issues that is plaguing her. If you are no longer her partner, your obligations and responsibilities end there.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

asdfjkl said:


> I don't understand the last sentence. Can you explain this to me?


Sure and sorry if I was a bit cryptic. 

Women for the most part like to feel useful as nurturers. By cleaning your flat, she may be doing a good, useful deed, but behind that deed, she may also feel an increased sense of hope that IF she does it, you'll come back,or at the very least, engage her more. 

From your perspective, you see it as a kind gesture, but that's all. It's not making you want to get back together with her. I guarantee that is not how she sees it.

It's like..... If she spent hours making a batch of cookies, held up the plate, then you said, "thanks, babe" and took the whole plate for yourself and walked away. 

I'm saying, beware of allowing a covert contract to form. She will think, "if I do X (clean, etc), then he will come back,talk with me more, etc." When reality hits that this is NOT the case, she could become hurt and resentful for putting in the effort for "nothing." Resentment like this can backfire at you. She can bring up in future arguments how she cleaned for you, and that's why I say, don't allow it to become fuel in the first place. 

It's also not healthy for her to clean your flat. It's not for her to do, any more than the house is your job to clean (if that's HER primary residence). You are each responsible for sweeping your own porches now. It's what happens or should happen as part of detachment. 

Those are my feelings anyway. You must do what you think is right at the end of the day. I hope I explained a bit better.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You need to stop going to the house, and she needs to stay out of your apartment. There is no reason that your children cannot spend time at your apartment. You are actually doing them a disservice by spending that time there and trying to make it look "normal", this is not reality. I do commend you for not giving in to her bullsh!t advances. I think you finally realized that her wanting to stay together isn't about love for you, but her insane need to have you there to control and use. Stop worrying about hurting her feelings, she does not give a damn about yours.


----------



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Hi there,

It has been quite a while - eight month to be precise 

I decided to continue this thread because it would make catching up to what has happened easier than trying to find the old threads.

As you have indicated, the times had been rough. I lived quite some time in Limbo not been able to decide about staying or leaving.

On Sep 9th I moved out again. On October 1st I bought a flat but I still kept open the Option to return.

I was 'at home' from Friday to Sunday from morning to evening and left each evening. During the week I am working 200 ml from home.

I have been contemplating the pros and cons forever, but in the end I had to admit that I had made up my mind back in May in France already. I just did not have the guts to see it through.

The problem comes down to two things:
a)	I do not believe that she really wants to change and that even if she wanted to that she will – people don’t change too much
b)	I am unable to live with her disappointment when I do something that I like to do what she sees different. Since I believe in problem a) her assurance that she does not mind anymore and that I just have to adept is not really a good one. I will always feel bad for the things that I want to do which I consider normal (and most people do).

Since I am not willing to accept her behavior anymore but am also aware of the fact that I may also not be able to change my behavior, the relationship is doomed. Even though I love her, neither I am doing her a favor in continuing the relationship nor would she be doing me one. It took some time to realize and accept this. But now I have.
So, finally, setting myself January as a deadline because of new job, birthdays, Christmas etc. I always ended to postpone the inevitable I ran out of time. Hence, on January 28th I tried to end it. When we were done with washing the dishes after our breakfast (at 2 p.m.) I told her that I don’t want to continue counselling.

She said, ‘Okay, I understand”
She asked how this will play out and I promised that she can stay in the house until the mortgage expires (June 2021) and that I want us to go to a mediator instead of a lawyer to settle things in a civilized fashion.

She said we can stay married because this would be financially wiser (I would pay 10,000 USD more in taxes after divorce). But I said no. I want a divorce. I would love to stay friends but I cannot live under her spell anymore. 

To my surprise, my wife was very calm. She insisted that I think it over and that we don’t tell the kids. I agreed to not telling them that day.
After that, we went shopping for a new jacket for our younger son and then had dinner all together. After that I watched two episodes of House MD with the younger one and left.

At the moment I am on a business trip in Thailand and feel good. So far, I had not had a single day of sorrow or regret. It surprises me that I feel that way. I expected more grief.

In the weeks and days before I finally told my wife, I was so emotionally down and even cried a few times. But when I had made up my mind on Thursday, I started to feel uplifted. Even though I had been dreading the moment when I would tell my wife that it’s over for months now, on Friday I felt electrified, on Saturday morning I felt ecstatic. I rose early and went on a training run of 21 miles on a great winter day with the sun out and snow on the trails at -5 °C/ 23 °F. I never felt better.
Then we had brunch and I was still feeling good.
When I finally told my wife, the situation was said but I only felt the sadness of loss but it was outweigh by a feeling of clarity and relief

The months and weeks before that had been terrible. I knew that I will leave her but could not bring myself to tell her. Hence, I spend a lot of effort on being imprecise and avoiding discussions about the future, what needs to change and so on. This was very exhausting.

Now everything is – theoretically – clear.

Theoretically – because my wife is trying very hard to make me see my mistake and return. Every day she is telling me how miserable the kids are, how much she misses me and that I did not try everything because I quit counselling. I will ruin not only her and the kids’ lives but also mine. But she will wait for me (one day) unless (the other day) she will kill herself once the kids are out of college. 

That is very stressful again but I noticed that I have learned to live with this better When I send her a picture of the beach I am at (on my current business trip) she wished me well and said that she will never ever see the sea again because her life is ruined, she will be poor and blablabla. I told her that she will be fine and she will have the means to see he sea again. She replied “I only need a one way ticket. I’ll come back in a coffin”:

I replied that I will not comment on such statements. I am fully aware of the emotional blackmail she is trying on me but I understand the patterns now so I am more resistant to it (I would not say immune). When I read her texts to my sister she summed them up as “every cliché in the world you can bring up to try to make your husband feel guilty”. But she also said that it is a good sign that I learned to deal with it.

Now my only problem is how to get through the next months. Her mood swings will make this very difficult.

Just another example: The assistant of my former boss quit her job and started a one year travel adventure. I am fascinated by her bravery and the concept so I added her blog to my Facebook account. My wife immediately asked who my new girlfriend is. Once I told her she said “Good, because it would have been unfair if I had more from our separation [I assume she refers to an affair] than she has”.

Half a year ago I would not even have contemplated dreaming about thinking of adding a female to my Facebook friends 

Hence, I am developing. I feel good for the time being and I am looking forward to my new life. I have made my peace with the fact that I will be poor for a couple of years due to child support and alimony payments. My kids shall have a good life and my freedom is worth way more than money. Besides, once payments are over, I assume I will recover real quickly.

Thank you all for your support until now

Regars

asdfjkl


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Ok, time to detach now. You made up your mind to end it, so now move on. Stop spending time at the house with her, stop texting her pictures, stop having dinner with her, stop having long conversations with her. This is not what divorce is about. Yes you can stay amicable, but the spending time together needs to stop. Let her know that her attempts to draw you back in are not appreciated and will be ignored from now on. Time to walk the walk.


----------

