# Siri Suggestions shock



## MessyBrain (2 mo ago)

Hello,

I'm a bit of a puddle ATM so forgive me if my post is jumbled.

First things first, I'm 43F him 50M, married over 17yrs together 20. No children, not by choice, we have a medical DB marriage, something that happened early in the marriage, kicking myself we didn't try sooner, and it's been one hell of a sacrifice, but we make it work. If you were to interview me this time last week, I would have praised the marriage, it's not 'plastic fantastic' superstar marriage, we have just a good marriage, he is very loving, we have great compatibility... ugh... yeah, I'm going to stop here, listing the good is making me sick right now and making me feel like a blind fool. Anyway, one area of the medical issues is his heart the other has been a long battle with cancer, last cancer was testicular and penile which left him without his testis and the rest scarred. He has been mortified with his body image ever since. He has been carrying this weight "I'm not a man". I try so so hard to be intimate in creative ways, to express my love, basically all ways to try and help him overcome his self-esteem issues but I can only do so much. The only reason for this over share is to drive home that not only can he not "show up to the party" but his libido also isn't there, his medication has made him asexual and there is no alternative, Viagra doesn't give you libido, it's just for the other part and he can't take those anyway because of his heart problems. So, in a nutshell, husband has terrible, crippling, self-esteem problems but is also asexual. Yes, tried to get him into therapy but he will only go so far as using therapy call centers and help online, he won't physically go and see anyone.

Ok Dday.

For me right now it's Monday morning, Saturday late afternoon I grabbed husband's phone to swipe to bring up his camera. He has an iphone, I don't, and I remember when the phone is locked I can still bring up the camera. I don't have his passlock, it's his fingerprint + face and it's his work phone. I've never had any of his passwords, never even gave it a second thought. I pick up his phone, randomly swiping all around trying to get this camera, notifications were there and all innocent, I get another screen with weather and news and then 'siri suggestions'. I didn't know at the time what it meant but there was app suggestions, in order, Tinder, Bumble, FB, Instagram, Clock. I was a little outraged apple would suggest dating apps for my husband to download because in that moment I truly thought it was an advertisement of sorts to get people to download their popular apps. I continued with the evening chores but couldn't shake this niggling feeling, not a gut feeling but a 'you need to look into this' feeling, so I google what siri suggestions mean.

I still feel so shaky/sick, think I'm still in shock, I'm numb but so messed up at the same time.

For those who don't know, siri suggestions are the last apps used on that phone, meaning my husband is using Tinder and Bumble. Knowing the cliff note version of the more intimate details of our marriage you can understand it took a long while for this to sink in, what it means, I was questioning all my reality, still am TBH. Was it just me he had no libido for? is he replacing me? hunting to replace me? how long has this been going on? I thought we were so good, weren't we??? I hate the questions because there are no answers, but I keep fricking asking them over and over.

I wish I slept on what I knew, to calm down, figure out how to approach this before I confronted but I'm hurting and wanted answers so when he walked into the room I was in I blurted out "you're on tinder and bumble", he FROZE, a few seconds went past then "no I'm not". BOOM lie to my face, god, I thought finding him on dating apps was hurtful, that first lie while looking at me flayed me. My Slavic temper kicked in and I demanded his phone, this is where I messed up, he left by himself to get the phone, I could tell he was standing with it, and I mentally slapped myself 'he is deleting everything!!' I go to him, and he hands me a phone with no Tinder nor Bumble on it then takes the phone back "told you I don't have those apps" I then lock the phone and swipe to siri suggestions, luckily bumble was still up, unfortunately because a few hours passed since I first saw tinder listed, he had used other apps, so tinder was bumped off the list but thank goodness bumble was still there. I then asked for him to open the phone because I know deleted apps would still show up under battery usage so I said I can prove tinder was on there too.

He permanently deleted the profiles in that panic. Permanently deleted tinder and bumble profiles are instant, there is no wait "cool off" period for these two apps so the profiles and the messages are gone forever. The rest of the phone was clean, all history still there, all texts, other apps and their messaging, cloud, deleted files, vaults, photos everything was a "normal" "safe spouse" phone, it was the two dating apps that showed any signs of betrayal.

Trickle truth time (this is still on going.) ... oh I feel I should mention that as soon as I asked for the phone from then till even now we've both had some mega meltdowns. I'm pleased I haven't turned to him for comfort, but we talk, break down, howling/sob/wail/be sick, time out from each other, rinse repeat.

Yes, he has bumble but it's for Bumble Bizz and Bumble BFF NOT (he swears on his mother's grave) for dating. He has only had it for a few weeks, and this is where he contradicts himself because I've now researched how both apps work, "I haven't matched with anyone anyway". Which tells me he WAS trying out the dating part. Lying SOB.

Yes, he "had" Tinder. Lied and lied that he tried it months ago and deleted it just as fast. It's a lie because Siri suggestions had it that afternoon. So, I waited a few hours for him to just tell me the fricking truth then called his lie out that he was using it right up until he got caught. He lied about matches, zero matches turned into less then five turned into "less then tens" (yeah, nice use of plural there). He lied about interaction "just said hi" turned into "some lines of text" turned into "nothing personal" turned into "light flirting". He lied about flattering them, "no, I never complimented them" turned into "I would tell them they had a nice smile" turned into "I told them they look good" turned into "I told them how hot they were."

The "reason" for both was "ego boosting", it was "just fantasy" "nothing more". He says he didn't hookup, there was no intent of taking it anywhere. He reminded me how sex is nothing to him (FML, yes, yes husband, I am well aware sex is a no go with you.) He pleads and cries and begs for me to believe him. He says he never went on dates, he never sexted, it was all for the ego boost from matching with people. He said it wasn't very good and very mechanical but that changed into "it's an addictive game of snap, something to kill time" to "it felt good to get attention". I was hysterical over that "so what you're saying is I can't give you that? I may as well leave if I can't give you what you need" and he breaks down sobbing hugging my legs pleading for me to believe him, understand he didn't see this as something that would wreck us because there was no intent, "yes it was selfish, and I take full blame BUT it was so innocent".

He keeps pleading for my forgiveness, says he never wants to let me go, he "will fix this" he "will make this better", he is so ashamed and so broken to see how it's broken me.... basically, comforting things I do want to hear but I can't trust it because he deleted those profiles, right? If it was so innocent, he could have proven that to me by showing me the profiles, what was said. Since he deleted those, I can't trust anything, well my head is screaming at me for not believing him, my heart however wants to seek comfort in him. I can't get over intent either, if he wanted an ego boost DM people on instagram or facebook, don't download hookup apps, that's my rationality.

I'm also not cool that he led other women on. I asked him if he mentioned he was married, no, I asked him if these women, who are on this for hookups and even to find someone, deserve to be emotionally catfished, no. "it was just fantasy" "it was just for fun" "it was just for ego boosting, no big deal".

I'm also not cool that he never thought this would hurt me, this is a betrayal, this has killed my trust.

I'm so torn, so so conflicted. On one hand I know his feelings about his body and privates, he is so shy even being naked around me still and I've worked so hard to give him as safe loving space to expose himself to me, that took so much effort, care, patience and love on my part. On the other hand, HOOKUP APPS!! I get stuck, I can't get past it. The more toxic inner voice tells me 'he can still use his fingers and mouth, just because he can't have traditional intercourse doesn't mean physical hookups of any kind are off the tables', he overwhelming rejects that scenario, but IDK, my trust is gone, anything is on the table right now especially while trickle truth is going on you know?! hell, trickle truth is balls.

20yrs is a long time to invest in a relationship, I've sacrificed a dream of kids and we've both compromised over the years. I'm not ready to throw that away but I also no longer trust him and I can't live in a relationship without trust, I refuse to be a marriage police. So, I don't know what to do, I feel I need a list to cross off, some sort of step-by-step guide to get me through this.

I also don't know what remorse looks like. He keeps apologizing and asking for forgiveness, keeps saying he wants to fix this but doesn't know how to get broken trust back, I don't know either. He offers me cups of tea (we're both not eating/drinking/sleeping) and asking if he can get me anything. Is that lovebombing? I'm so confused.

It may have not been physical but it's still a betrayal to me. For me there is intent there. I ask him "what if someone attractive matched"? "What if they started to lightly flirt?" "What happens when it gets heavier" etc etc I walked him throught the slippery slope, but he says "it never got to that" so hypotheticals are not helpful in rebuilding trust. He denies he would have taken that slop from 'ego boost' to 'affair thrill'.

I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say to him other than what I've asked over and over (which is mainly "tell me the truth"), I don't know what to give him/help him "fix this", I don't know if trust can be reborn from this. Can I over come this? I'm so confused and lost right now.

Goodness, so sorry for the long read, I tried to use paragraphs as much as possible. Thank you for reading.

edit: words is hard


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

@MessyBrain First wow, yea, huge betrayal. These apps generally have one purpose in mind, and he was both lying and gaslighting you about that.

Trickle Truth is a huge thing and you should absolutely not believe a word he says right now. Withdraw from him. Don’t engage with him. Put some distance between you and him so that you can think clearly. Tell him to leave. Consult a lawyer before you leave, that can have legal complications later. So don’t you leave. But out some distance so you can think in clean air without his foul mouth lying to you.

He is absolutely not remorseful. He is sorry he got caught and is trying to soften the landing with you. Don’t buy his BS.

Now some harder stuff.
How sure are you that this was the first time? To be honest he sounds quite experienced at hiding these things from you.

His physical impairments, I’m a bit confused about that. Could he actually have relations with a woman?

The physical part doesn’t matter btw, his actions are a severe betrayal whether it was physical or not. You are right to be crushed by it.

Next steps, see a lawyer. Consult with one for free. Find out your options if it comes to divorce. What would that look like for you. And find out about living requirements. You really need time and space to think this through.

I’m sorry you’re here with this. Others will be along soon enough. It’s Sunday evening ya know?

Try to breath, calm down as much as possible, get away from him. Lots of good people here have been right where you are. You’re among friends here.


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## MessyBrain (2 mo ago)

@BeyondRepair007 - thank you for replying. writing this out exhausted me.

I'm so confused about remorse, what does it look like? I don't know what to look for. I understand feelings of guilt and emotions about being busted are all internal feelings, but what do I look for when that, if ever, turns into remorse? It's just blanket freaked-out hysteria ATM. How long does it take for remorse to "kick in". I've already called him out, say he isn't remorseful, and he says that's bulls*** because he feels devastated with what damage he has done. UGH! I'm so torn.

I have separated from him ATM. I've moved into the back section of the house, it's a no-go zone for him, it has everything I need, a bigger bedroom then my main, a nice bathroom just for myself and a little kitchenette. I've stopped the house maid stuff for him, he can get his own food, do his own chores, clean up his own bedroom and bathroom. I've stopped saying "I love you" he says it so much and is crushed I don't say it back but I said he isn't very loveable right now, his actions are unloving and disrespectful, so I won't say it when I don't feel it like I did before discovery. I'm going to eat my meals before he gets home (he has a hybrid work life now, 2 days a week in the city, rest at home) or in this little kitchen away from him. He knows how to cook, he can survive even if he *****es and moans. He is wordsmith, been in sales for decades, I know he can easily manipulate me so when he takes focus off what I want to talk about I shut it down and retreat back to my space.

I was given advice on reddit "do the 180" but I have zero in me to pull that sort of positivity into my life, all I have in me is to hide and stew and overthink. I read it's a good method to implement but... I just can't.

(yikes, okey-dokey, I don't know how quoting works ATM sorry if this next bit is messy)



BeyondRepair007 said:


> His physical impairments, I’m a bit confused about that. Could he actually have relations with a woman?


This is what confuses me about all this. firstly, he has chronic ED from his years of cancer treatments, the operation, hormones and medication, so PIV no, he cannot take viagra because those kinds of tablets can stop his heart, give him a stroke, so he can't take those. Then the no sex drive is the other medical issue, he has no sex drive, no libido, again this is from years of medication, hormone changes after the last invasive operation etc and over the years just has zero interest in sex so AFAIK sexual thrill is off the tables too. I have never been told by an expert that there are medications or lotions or potions that can reverse this, we've looked, for years.

BUT

"Could he actually have relations with a woman?" theoretically, he still has his mouth and hands so yes, he could. And that is one of the million-dollar questions for me, has he found something that gives him a sex drive boost that he wants to experiment with? I've been reading about sexual thrills/excitement/psychology vs external validation thrills/excitement/psychology and he 100% falls into the last but, technically, unable to achieve the first. But, there is always a but because you can be physical without PIV right? Definitely a source of my confusion and something I keep mind looping over.

This is so exhausting, how do people carry on right after discovery? I'm a shell.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

He spent a lot of time and energy betraying you and then lied right to your face!
You can assume he met with several women. Or whatever he was searching for - otherwise - why take the risk of getting caught?

only option now is for him to agree to a polygraph test - since he lies so easily to you.

Or divorce him knowing you can’t trust him - at all!


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

I've been where he is as far as being castrate. Thankfully that was only a short dose, while his is lifetime.

I really feel his pain. And yours. I've seen many relationships break up as a result of men being even temporarily castrate. They lose their sense of being a "man". Some tell their wives to go find a man who can care for them like a man should, some contemplate suicide.

He's made some serious mistakes in not being honest with you, but I would want to know what drove him to try to regain his manly image this way.

By the way, from personal experience, I can say that castration alone may not prevent a man from having intercourse. I was sexually active on a daily basis when I was castrate. Whether he actually can depends on what other damage has been done and whether he's developed penile atrophy for not having sex for a few months. It also is a different way of becoming aroused and intimacy that needs nurturing to happen.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Your post is so sad, I’m sorry this is happening. You’ve really been through a lot in your marriage. Your husband as well. What makes me angry reading your story is that you have been there by his side helping him through his medical problems, trying to build him up yet he chooses random strangers to get some quick attention from.

I don’t know. I think in order to consider reconciliation, he has to be honest with all that happened. Even if it was all just emotional. You could check the phone bills and see if random new numbers are appearing, that would show that he took it off the apps.

Your husband clinging to you and crying hysterically is not remorse. It’s more like fright and panic that he may lose you.

Remorse is calm. I’ve hurt people in my life before, we all have and true remorse isn’t a hysterical scene. Hysterics are a sign of panic. Remorse is an understanding of how you hurt someone and genuine sorrow.

I hope you find out the truth and can make a good decision for your future.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

MessyBrain said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm a bit of a puddle ATM so forgive me if my post is jumbled.
> 
> ...


Seriously, don`t worry about it, let your husband have his fantasies that will lead to nowhere.
It is fact that on those dating apps and on most dating sites 100% of the women are chasing only 20% of men, the alpha males, young Chad and Tyrone types and the other 80% of average men are ignored.
Those apps are mostly used by young and youngish people for hookups, a 50 year old average man, unless he looks like Sean Connery or Robert Redford or is filthy rich, not a chance in hell of scoring on those apps.
There are prostitutes that use those apps but for old men they expect a truck load of cash.
Your husband is probably going through a mid life crisis.
But regardless, this doesn`t make this acceptable and it still means your husband has the potential to cheat although his chances of zilch.
The fact that your husband after being caught permanently deleted the profiles in panic means he`s scared of losing you.
This is your ammunition, tell your husband in no uncertain terms that if you discover anything like this again or even get a hint he`s up to no good, then you are done and be firm.
Anyway, this is how you handle it and somehow I doubt he`ll do this again.
Trust me on this one.


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## Tiddytok5 (8 mo ago)

Leave.

He's probably met up with some of them or had the intentions of doing so.

He's probably still using those apps inappropriately.


This may have meant that he's been cheating the entire relationship. (If you aren't aware, perhaps you are).


Who knows what else he has been lying about..

For all you know, he could have children that he's kept secret.

He obviously doesn't have ed. 

He's on dating apps trying to get laid.


Leave.

There isn't anything to save.

Also, you'll never trust him(if you ever did) again.

You'll never get past this.

You'll always check and play detective.

You'll always be filled with paranoia.

You'll never trust him again.

He'll get smarter about hiding things.
You'll never let this go.


He also, isn't going to stop.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MessyBrain said:


> I'm so confused about remorse, what does it look like? I don't know what to look for. I understand feelings of guilt and emotions about being busted are all internal feelings, but what do I look for when that, if ever, turns into remorse? It's just blanket freaked-out hysteria ATM. How long does it take for remorse to "kick in". I've already called him out, say he isn't remorseful, and he says that's bulls*** because he feels devastated with what damage he has done. UGH! I'm so torn.


This is way too soon for him to have remorse, and even if he did, you wouldn’t be able to know if it was genuine.

Remorse is all about YOU, the betrayed. Remorse is realizing the damage he’s done to you and caring more about helping you heal than anything else. Remorse is willing to expose everything he’s done to the world so that you have all the support you need from friends and family. Remorse is going online and searching for “how to help your spouse heal from an affair” and doing everything it says. Remorse is telling you with full honesty anything you ask with no minimizing or trying to avoid the consequences of it.

And a million other signs that aren’t about HIM, and what he’s losing. But about you and helping you heal, even if it means losing everything he has. You are most important and he has damaged you.

But, as I said, this is way too soon. Don’t try to figure him out right now, don’t put any thoughts at all into what he might or might not be thinking or doing. Right now just focus on yourself. Keep away from him, like you are doing, that’s good.

The 180 that you hear about is all about disconnecting and disengaging from him. Its basically what you are already starting to do. Stop talking to him, stop doing anything for him, stop listening to him, shut down any and all interactions if they aren’t critical. It gives you a “safe place” emotionally to think and recover while also putting the wayward on notice that there are consequences for betrayal.

Here’s a link to a thread about it.








The 180


good article wanted to share The 180 Several years ago, Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, introduced a concept to the world of infidelity that is designed to help you and your partner move forward in the healing of your relationship. She suggested that any new betrayed...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MessyBrain said:


> This is so exhausting, how do people carry on right after discovery? I'm a shell.


It is exhausting, and there’s no silver bullet to make it all go away, or even a secret sauce to make it more palatable. This is betrayal.

Listen to the people here, they have great advice. Some of it will not be useful to you, some of it will be exactly what you need. Listen to all of it, ask questions and the folks here will help. 

Most of all focus on yourself right now. Don’t forget to eat, get as much sleep as you can, reach out to any friends or relatives in your life that can help support you.

And keep in mind, you didn’t deserve this. Cheaters cheat because they can, not because there’s something wrong with their mate. Problems in a marriage can be worked on together, or divorced. Going outside the marriage is 100% on the cheater.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I don’t believe him.

See you were in a panic. This was your FIRST rodeo.

He had the forethought to quickly delete apps while retrieving his phone.

He’s been doing this long enough he’s thought about it. He’s been doing it long enough he could think to cover his tracks.

He’s an idiot. Many people would never stick around at his age and with such medical issues. You did.

You deserve better. Your new life starts when you want it to. See a lawyer about your options.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Tiddytok5 said:


> Leave.
> 
> He's probably met up with some of them or had the intentions of doing so.
> 
> ...


I disagree all down the line. By the way, have you ever been castrate?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Tell him you will set up Tinder and Bumble accounts to take care of your needs and see how that sits with him. I doubt he has thought about it like that before.
The lying and shiftiness of deleting the apps and wiping everything is a bigger problem than the apps. No easy way to trust someone like that.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

The husband is castrate. That means he is experiencing andropause (male menopause). Most men not into violent sex crimes depend on testosterone for libido. 

It is common for castrate men to "forget" to try sexual activity. Without sexual activity (erections) men begin suffering penile atrophy. The penis gets smaller and less able to ever become erect. After some time it may become what one gent calls a "skin tag" and suck back into the body like a turtle's head.

Dunno whether this gent learned to be sexually active while castrate or whether he has other than testosterone driven libido. Most men do suffer emotional issues both from feeling they are no longer "men" and as a side effect of being menopausal.

So what I'm saying is that this is a complex situation. The lying is unacceptable, but having a therapist is possibly the best route. I and many other men have found therapy necessary when we were made castrate and began going through andropause.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Julie's Husband said:


> The husband is castrate. That means he is experiencing andropause (male menopause). Most men not into violent sex crimes depend on testosterone for libido.
> 
> It is common for castrate men to "forget" to try sexual activity. Without sexual activity (erections) men begin suffering penile atrophy. The penis gets smaller and less able to ever become erect. After some time it may become what one gent calls a "skin tag" and suck back into the body like a turtle's head.
> 
> ...


The man being castrate has nothing to do with the main issue.

He is a lying cheater.

One might say it was a casual factor, to which I say “who cares”? Infidelity has a million causal factors, none of which matter to the pain of the betrayed.

OP needs to deal with the betrayal. End of story.

Why he did it is for later. Maybe with OP in his life, or maybe by himself to be a better person.


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## Brigit24 (2 mo ago)

MessyBrain said:


> He permanently deleted the profiles in that panic. Permanently deleted tinder and bumble profiles are instant, there is no wait "cool off" period for these two apps so the profiles and the messages are gone forever. The rest of the phone was clean, all history still there, all texts, other apps and their messaging, cloud, deleted files, vaults, photos everything was a "normal" "safe spouse" phone, it was the two dating apps that showed any signs of betrayal.
> 
> He keeps apologizing and asking for forgiveness, keeps saying he wants to fix this but doesn't know how to get broken trust back, I don't know either. He offers me cups of tea (we're both not eating/drinking/sleeping) and asking if he can get me anything. Is that lovebombing? I'm so confused.
> 
> ...


I'm going to try and help you. If what I say isn't helpful just ignore it. 

I _think_ he deleted the profiles in a panic because he was scared you'd see something that would make you kick him out of the house. Also, he probably had stuff a divorce lawyer would be able to use so you can get a good financial deal. 

Right now we're living in very scary times when financial security is rare. Do you want to survive? If so, you'll need to become practical. You cannot survive if your head is spinning in circles. You don't need to worry about anything he says right now. He's terrified. He doesn't sound like the top of the dating food chain and can easily lose everything from his stupidity. You hold the cards. First thing you need to do is get him out of the house so you can think.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Julie's Husband said:


> The husband is castrate. That means he is experiencing andropause (male menopause). Most men not into violent sex crimes depend on testosterone for libido.
> 
> It is common for castrate men to "forget" to try sexual activity. Without sexual activity (erections) men begin suffering penile atrophy. The penis gets smaller and less able to ever become erect. After some time it may become what one gent calls a "skin tag" and suck back into the body like a turtle's head.
> 
> ...


Disagree with your excuses for him. Sure I may even buy that the castrate was a contributing factor to signing up. HOWEVER, it shows he is a lying cheat. And if he can or has been sexual with another has NOTHING to do with it. He's out there seeking his jollies. He's a cheater. IF he had truly just wanted to feel manly he wouldn't have lied and been deceptive. He would have been open and honest. He continues to lie. He also continues to only be worried about himself. 

He doesn't want to be alone. I"m sure he's worried about girlfriend shopping with no sex. Jokes on him. There are women who would probably take him up on living a life with no sex. But most don't want to date a cheater. Many won't want all the other health issues. Most don't want a liar.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Tiddytok5 said:


> Leave.
> 
> He's probably met up with some of them or had the intentions of doing so.
> 
> ...


Did you even read OPs first post?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> The man being castrate has nothing to do with the main issue.
> 
> He is a lying cheater.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying H is right, or that he hasn't screwed up in a magnificent fashion!

I can only offer that with the cancer, treatments, medical physical castration, scarring of remaining peen and sac.....his state of mind may be shot, and needs attention.

I'd ask:
1 is his peen still intact, is there scar tissue on the peen?
2 when was the initial diagnosis and treatment start, duration, time since last surgery or treatment?
3 What meds are he taking?
4 again, how long since last surgery and treatment?

How long in your M did you have, before his cancer presented?


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

I wouldn't wish the experience of castration on those who are not understanding the emotional and mental conditions it causes, but sometimes experience is the best teacher. I've been there and been fortunate enough to pretty much fully recover.

Again, unless the husband has been able to maintain sexual function, I think he needs a shrink more than anything. I do not know what his situation would be if he is taking hormone replacement. I do not know whether hormone driven issues are a problem with TRT.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm not saying H is right, or that he hasn't screwed up in a magnificent fashion!
> 
> I can only offer that with the cancer, treatments, medical physical castration, scarring of remaining peen and sac.....his state of mind may be shot, and needs attention.
> 
> ...


OP, answers?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Julie's Husband said:


> So what I'm saying is that this is a complex situation.


No, it really isn't.

OP, you've sacrificed your ability to be a mother, the full expression of your sexuality, and years of your life for this limp dink loser. The _very least_ he could do is not stab you in the back and then lie about it. The absolute bare minimum. And he couldn't even manage that.

Get a lawyer. Free yourself. Go find a good man and have a full and fulfilling relationship.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

MessyBrain said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm a bit of a puddle ATM so forgive me if my post is jumbled.
> 
> ...


He had is testis removed, his penis is all scarred up, he is impotent, has a bad heart and it sounds like he's been fighting off various cancers for a while now. I am not in his shoes but I can say I can imagine my mind would not be in the right place at all if I were in his situation. The it's all fantasy etc, trying to make himself feel like a real man to women who don't know he is not, I can see there being sincerity there. Thats a really high stacked **** sandwich he's been served. Not saying it's right I'm just saying the idea he is using the apps as some sort of porn adjacent kind of thing is plausible to me given everything.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

The guy's physical state is irrelevant.

If a woman has a mastectomy, hysterectomy, or some other trauma, does that somehow justify or minimize her affairs, lying, cheating, etc? No.

Same with hubby.

What he did to OP and their marriage IS relevant, and that was his choice.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

MJJEAN said:


> No, it really isn't.
> 
> OP, you've sacrificed your ability to be a mother, the full expression of your sexuality, and years of your life for this limp dink loser. The _very least_ he could do is not stab you in the back and then lie about it. The absolute bare minimum. And he couldn't even manage that.
> 
> Get a lawyer. Free yourself. Go find a good man and have a full and fulfilling relationship.


Have you been castrate? That experience would be a good starting point.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> The guy's physical state is irrelevant.
> 
> If a woman has a mastectomy, hysterectomy, or some other trauma, does that somehow justify or minimize her affairs, lying, cheating, etc? No.
> 
> ...


It does not justify, but it does indicate that the state of mind and emotions need to be considered.


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## MessyBrain (2 mo ago)

A little overwhelmed, thank you for replying. I'm feeling very robotic ATM so forgive me if that comes across, I don't think it will but I am just apologising for everything right now, not to him, but in my head mostly. Also I'm in a different country to most, time zones plus generally bad time management right now might mean I don't see your posts fast, please be patient, I might want to bury my head in the sand but I'm just doing the best I can in all areas right now.

@Julie's Husband I know I'm going to muddle this up but know I am so appreciative for you posting. When I posted I thought I would get various opinions on my situation but never, not even in a million years, just never, thought there would be someone with your next level of knowledge and understanding posting. I knew I absolutely needed to read opinions from peers, again thank you to every who has posted, but I didn't realise I also needed to read something from someone who understands that side of my marriage as well. I feel so very guilty even posting about his medical history, even if it was very glossed over cliff note version because it is private and not really mine to share, but I felt I had to because when I tried this on reddit and left that part out most of the replies were 'he is screwing around' and I just don't have it in me to explain the unlikelihood of psychical interactions, even video interactions. I'm still unsure if he was toying with women via sexting, most likely he wasn't getting off in a physical way, more he way getting off knowing the women were touching themselves and that was thrilling to him, IDK that is in my mind today. Atrophy is real on both sides obviously, that's just life with this. He had therapy after the surgery but a therapist can only do so much, he still needs to make peace and do the work. I did read a lot of literature around quality of life after this kind of surgery and sexual function is 60/40, some men get back to it, some have alternative interest/interactions, some have no interest in it again, my husband swings between the last two groups but mainly the last group. So the burning questions for me are focused on motivations, intent, what the hell did he think would happen, goals he wanted to achieve with this betrayal, was he searching for the nurturing connection from someone else etc. Then there is your understanding around the damage "be a man" can do to a man who ends up in this situation. I won’t go into it because I do feel really bad I’m talking about this side of him behind his back but that toxic “be a manly man” crap was drilled into him. Asshats of a family (his) actually mocked him and meme spammed him when he had surgery for his testicular seminoma so we kept quite about the partial penectomy. Thank you so much for posting and understanding.

@Beach123 Polygraphs are not common in my country and funnily enough there are only two places who do them (2+hr drive away is the closest) and funnily enough both are side sections to legal services. I guess if he fails it means I can just walk into the other section of the building. He has agreed, didn't even flinch. I won't tell him the day but it's going to be obvious when I start driving so long out of the way. I've organised the normal one but also the new eye one, I'll be organising the questions with the experts later in the week. Anyone who has done polys please chime in on questions you asked. It's hard to turn the questions I want to ask into reactive questions that get results, information seeking questions don't do that up to a point, luckily the expert is there to help, I tell them what I want to know and they help me craft the question. It's going to be a very expensive day. I don't know if his absolute, on the spot, agreement is a good sign or not. Outside of the obvious, I wouldn't call him a cunning man. So IDK if I should hope here.

@*Deidre* Thank you so much. It made me angry for a moment, thinking about all the battles, but after a spell it's just exhausting thinking of them. You wrote "I think in order to consider reconciliation, he has to be honest with all that happened." and I 100% agree. I've removed myself to a different section of the house to give myself space. We had a, I don't want to call it this but, a "better" talk last night (I’ll mention it at the end of post) but I have said until honesty is there I'm assuming he is lying or down playing the story and both of us can't recover from that. If he tries to make amends while I don't believe it's truthful then it's wasted. He can't jump into the middle, he has to start at the start which is stop lying, tell me the truth, answer my questions with honesty, back up his words if he can. The sobbing has stopped, he was a little teary last night but very very calm. I still think it's way too early, but there is that.

@gameopoly5 ha, yeah I needed your post. Found out more last night, he was depressed with the lack of matches, I was pissed off at that but had to not react to his honesty, at least he sounded honest, he was so bummed out. He was also catfishing these girls. He may have deleted the profiles but I told him to show me the profile picture he used, reason being, I wanted to see if he would do it (step towards trust if he did) but also he does look like a man who has battled cancer for 15yrs right now. True enough he used a photo I took of him back in 2008 of him standing next to a Ferrari at a car show lol. He was, well to me is, but to a stranger he does look hot in that picture but I would like to think if a woman took the bait and when it came time to meet the difference would be enough for her to step away, I know it’s him but if you compared a pic of today against that picture a stranger would say they’re either related but two different people.

@BeyondRepair007 You're so helpful! thank you again for the link. As long as I don't have to be miss daisy sunshine like some 180 articles mention then I'm ok trying.

@Anastasia6 I've been calling lawyers up today, setting up interviews. Doesn't mean I'm packing up and walking away without trying but I do think knowledge is power, it's good to know what a separation and divorce will look like. I agree, giant idiot.

@Rubix Cubed I'm groaning over this because I said exactly that during the first confrontation where I did not have control over my mouth or emotions. He sobbed at it saying "you have every right to do that" and I wanted to just tear up everything in the room because I would never do that and I wanted a different reaction from him and I was a complete fool for throwing that out there because that's not me. Serious cringe thinking about it.

@Brigit24 thanks for writing. I do like sound boarding this. My entire country is no fault so even if had screwed someone in front of an audience and I had that on tape it wouldn't matter so him panic deleting the profiles wasn’t motivated by that. I have, however, started setting up some dates to see lawyers to talk about what a divorce would look like and what it would look like if I went with them. I agree, it is scary times right now but luckily I've been smart with my money, even if I do divorce and it goes worst case scenario, whatever that might be, against me, which it might considering his medical history, I will and can survive on the ashes. Yes, he is terrified, I'm stupidly hoping that he stops internalizing that fear and starts using it as motivation to make amends and start to do the work. I've already sectioned the house up, I'm living in the section we use to rent before COVID and he knows this is a no-go zone. There is a door separating the two and I've put a chain lock on it to keep him out. He has respected my wishes around this so far but it's peace of mind that I won't wake up late at night to a sobbing cheater standing over the bed, doubt my heart will take that.

@Ragnar Ragnasson hey ragnar, thanks for your posts. I'm not going to reveal any more of his medical history because it is his personal history. I’m just not comfortable saying any more than I have, I feel like I’m betraying something here as I only intended to give gloss details, so people won’t instantly jump to “he is screwing everyone!! run!!”. I will however take mercy and save you from seeing the graphic pics online. You asked about scarring? The head of his penis had to be removed due to a growth on a gland (they call it squamous cell carcinoma but my understanding is there are different cancers that can form here but ‘SCC’ is the most common), skin graft is then used to seal/construct a tip after removal, they keep the urethra intact and cocoon this in the new tip. So, penis functions the same but it’s all different, both in sensations and feel and look. So, yes to scarring, it’s expected. The self-esteem issues are more focused on look than the scars, those have faded. That particular surgery happened over a handful of years ago. It can also impact men of any age, ethnicity and health so always self-check guys!! If we didn’t, we wouldn’t have caught this nor years earlier the testicular cancer. Cancer does run rampant in his family, expect for the nieces and nephews all of them have had surgery or have died from cancer. But still, self-check is so important.

@happyhusband0005 thanks for writing and understanding. It in no way excuses the dating apps not at all, but the understanding is appreciated. It has been a sh*tty hand he has been dealt. Again, no excuses, so many alternative healthy ways to tackle poor self-esteem, as I said to him “there are apps for that!” but I’m starting to see a clearer motivation today, “ ego boost” might simply come from someone matching with him then reaching out first, interactions like he says only happened without it getting sexual... IDK I'm trying not to solve this without his truthful input, so in other words I need to stop and wait for more truth.

wow-wee that took so much longer than I have time for.

I hate to rush this part but feel I owe you an update, and me to just get it out there. 

We fell into a talk last night. I've been keeping my space, but he put effort in to making a comfortable talking space, low lights, warmth, chairs apart but facing each other, blankets, hot drinks and so I agreed to sit down and talk. He was calmer, did tear up time and again and admitted he is scared sh*tless right now. 

He said the same things as the other day, story hasn't changed, it was never with intention of intimacy, purely driven to get an ego kick however it wasn't working for him, hardly anyone matched with him which depressed him (hate hearing this but I've been reading when they're honest don't react poorly or they might not try being honest again???) In that moment I tested him, he may have deleted the profiles, but I bet he didn't delete the profile picture he used, I asked to see it. He was catfishing, using a very old picture (2008) well before the weight of his health took a toll on him. Conflicted, if he was using a "hot" picture it made me think he would have taken this to sexting at least, but the picture is so so different to how he looks now that it would be impossible for him to make a visual sexting or IRL affair connection... .... if that was what he was after. At least I can see some truth in the lack of matches, he listed his age as his real age, but the photo is that of a young man, I wouldn't swipe on that anomaly no matter how good looking the guy looked. 

He kept talking about it being a fantasy, how his "range" was 30-60, he swiped only for 'the girl next door' types (I know this is his type so that checks out) and he was wanting light banter to feel good about himself, to talk with someone who doesn't know "the real sad sack of sh*t he is". He then spiraled into depressing self-hate which I had to pull him out of to get him back on track, I've never thought of him as such, he just carries too much self-loathing which obviously has now hurt us as well as him. 

He agreed to a poly, the two kinds (there is a new eye kind), he handed over all logins for everything and even looked into putting GPS on the car. He has purchased a few books off amazon and looked things up online and he wants to know if we can set a time to sit in this space to debrief what he is learning. He talked about hating the men orientated 'self-help' guides on helping your spouse heal from your betrayal because they drum in "be a man" too much and that is a source of his poor self-esteem, his image of lacking "being a man". He asked me if we could also work on building the friendship as he doesn't want to push what intimacy we shared and if in a few months' time I would be willing to do one of those online Gottman couples rebuilding relationship kits with him.

We talked more about his self-image, and I talked about him getting help. He is too embarrassed for IRL IC right now but is willing to seek IC help through therapy online (skype meetings) and looking into that. 

I've asked him to prove to me the download date of both apps, he can retrieve the verification/joining emails which will have the date stamp and I want a timeline, not starting from download day but prior to that. This couldn't have been a spare of a moment thing, he had to have been thinking about this for some time. I told him I expect him to produce some kind of something to back up the timeline, he said this is hard because he was mostly swiping getting nowhere, there was/is nothing outside of those apps which would hurt me, I said "try". I do hate hearing he never thought I would be devastated by this because it was never anything meaningful or serious to him other than an ego boost. 

We talked about hope, I have none, he said he would hold the hope for us both. He has, well last night, dropped the "It does not count as cheating because..." card which felt good. It is betrayal pure and simple, it hurt me pure and simple. 

I cried more, talked about my fears and I was honest about willing to try but only when I feel his is truthful, he needs to work hard on proving this is truth.

Then I went back to my space to try and sleep, got about 4hrs in. I do need to try to eat today, kind of skipping food and I think my headache is more food than emotion today.

Moving forward I've called some lawyers, may as well see what the other option looks like, I'm just going to keep to myself and just watch to see what he does, if he contradicts himself again, if these "talks" are fruitful. What sucks is my birthday is in a couple of days, because of COVID my family isn't coming over so it's just me and him and right now I'm so not in the mood but IDK if me refusing to sit down with dinner or eating a slice of cake with him will do more harm than good. If he is being honest now and open and transparent, I don't want to throw that in his face, but as it stands right in this minute, I don't want it acknowledged, is that childish? I feel that's selfish of me. 

Thank you so so so much everyone who has posted. I won't have this much time to write for a couple of days, I kind of want to step back and just try and work on my wellbeing if that make sense? but know i'm so thankful. I'll provide updates if anything new happens or if I want to sound board. thanks again.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MessyBrain said:


> A little overwhelmed, thank you for replying. I'm feeling very robotic ATM so forgive me if that comes across, I don't think it will but I am just apologising for everything right now, not to him, but in my head mostly. Also I'm in a different country to most, time zones plus generally bad time management right now might mean I don't see your posts fast, please be patient, I might want to bury my head in the sand but I'm just doing the best I can in all areas right now.
> 
> @Julie's Husband I know I'm going to muddle this up but know I am so appreciative for you posting. When I posted I thought I would get various opinions on my situation but never, not even in a million years, just never, thought there would be someone with your next level of knowledge and understanding posting. I knew I absolutely needed to read opinions from peers, again thank you to every who has posted, but I didn't realise I also needed to read something from someone who understands that side of my marriage as well. I feel so very guilty even posting about his medical history, even if it was very glossed over cliff note version because it is private and not really mine to share, but I felt I had to because when I tried this on reddit and left that part out most of the replies were 'he is screwing around' and I just don't have it in me to explain the unlikelihood of psychical interactions, even video interactions. I'm still unsure if he was toying with women via sexting, most likely he wasn't getting off in a physical way, more he way getting off knowing the women were touching themselves and that was thrilling to him, IDK that is in my mind today. Atrophy is real on both sides obviously, that's just life with this. He had therapy after the surgery but a therapist can only do so much, he still needs to make peace and do the work. I did read a lot of literature around quality of life after this kind of surgery and sexual function is 60/40, some men get back to it, some have alternative interest/interactions, some have no interest in it again, my husband swings between the last two groups but mainly the last group. So the burning questions for me are focused on motivations, intent, what the hell did he think would happen, goals he wanted to achieve with this betrayal, was he searching for the nurturing connection from someone else etc. Then there is your understanding around the damage "be a man" can do to a man who ends up in this situation. I won’t go into it because I do feel really bad I’m talking about this side of him behind his back but that toxic “be a manly man” crap was drilled into him. Asshats of a family (his) actually mocked him and meme spammed him when he had surgery for his testicular seminoma so we kept quite about the partial penectomy. Thank you so much for posting and understanding.
> 
> ...


You sound like you’ve got a good head on your shoulders and are thinking clearly as can be about this.

Just some warnings… it takes time to see if he is being genuine or not. Even with a poly, don’t rush into believing him. Make sure he isn't online searching for “how to beat a poly”. (Yes, it’s a real thing).

The content he wants to avoid “man up” and “be a man” kind of things are important. Even if the wording gives him problems, he shouldn’t pick and choose which things he wants to do to help you. _You_ can pick and choose, but he should be willing to take any bullet to his ego for you. Don’t let him waffle and make excuses.

Overall it sounds like you’re doing great.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

So, suppose he did match with more women? Would he be misleading all these women to the fact that he’s married and has medical issues?

And also having emotional affairs behind your back?

Had you not picked up his phone, he’d still be doing this.

He should be grateful he is a cancer _survivor_ and has a wife who loves him, instead he is looking for other women to make him feel masculine. So who are you to him, then? Like your opinion of him doesn’t matter, he needs other women’s opinions? Someone who got a second chance on life and this is how he’s spending his time?

I’m sure your husband has had a tough time but this is absolutely not the expectation you should have for your marriage. So you’re his caretaker, maid and shoulder to cry on but he’s looking for other women to fill a void?

It’s so heartbreaking to read your story because you deserve better.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As well as betraying you he is messing with these women's emotions and lives. I hope he stops for your sake and theirs.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> As well as betraying you he is messing with these women's emotions and lives. I hope he stops for your sake and theirs.


Yea, these are real connections he’s making.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Julie's Husband said:


> Have you been castrate? That experience would be a good starting point.


Just keep making excuses. And that's what it is...an excuse. "I only cheated because I'm dealing with being castrate!" Right up there with the rest of the excuses made by those who cheat.

Let's all be real here. He used cheating to cope. Just like any other garden variety cheater. However, because his dink doesn't work, you feel super serial sorry for him and think he should get a pass on this one. I disagree.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> Just keep making excuses. And that's what it is...an excuse. "I only cheated because I'm dealing with being castrate!" Right up there with the rest of the excuses made by those who cheat.
> 
> Let's all be real here. He used cheating to cope. Just like any other garden variety cheater. However, because his dink doesn't work, you feel super serial sorry for him and think he should get a pass on this one. I disagree.


Yea, I feel badly for her husband, but there are many marriages that go through all kinds of challenges, and what stands out to me, is the OP has sacrificed having kids, and has been truly caring for her husband. So, he wants to feel good about himself, and has poor self-esteem issues from all he has been through - that makes sense, and we can all have empathy for that. But, you don't cheat because you have self-esteem issues.

He should feel that his wife is enough, though - not need attention from random women. That just is such an insult for all she has sacrificed for him, and how much she has shown her love and empathy for him. 

What I'd want to know is when did he join these sites? If he's been at this for a while, then I wouldn't see the point in even considering reconciliation.

Messybrain - removing the apps from his phone doesn't delete his account on those sites. He likely just deactivated those accounts, or removed them from view on his phone, so if he provides you with the usernames of those apps, you can just log in and see what went on. It might be painful, but you'd at least know the full truth. Save you a trip and expense for the polygraph. 

If you choose reconciliation, I just hope you do it for the right reasons, not out of fear or guilt.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Being married, I've never used Tinder or Bumble, not sure how they work... but, are we sure he was communicating with women and not men?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Disagree with your excuses for him. Sure I may even buy that the castrate was a contributing factor to signing up. HOWEVER, it shows he is a lying cheat. And if he can or has been sexual with another has NOTHING to do with it. He's out there seeking his jollies. He's a cheater. IF he had truly just wanted to feel manly he wouldn't have lied and been deceptive. He would have been open and honest. He continues to lie. He also continues to only be worried about himself.
> 
> He doesn't want to be alone. I"m sure he's worried about girlfriend shopping with no sex. Jokes on him. There are women who would probably take him up on living a life with no sex. But most don't want to date a cheater. Many won't want all the other health issues. Most don't want a liar.


He wasn't making excuses for him, he was explaining what might be happening with @MessyBrain's husband based on his own experiences with a similar, though in his case temporary, condition.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@MessyBrain have you considered having your husband seen by a mental health professional? I also think that couple's counselling and individual counselling could be a helpful option to consider.


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## MessyBrain (2 mo ago)

So, I went into his email without letting him know, he did leave the passwords on paper for me after all.

The man never deletes an email. I was able to pull up the verification email for tinder, 30 AUG 22 - 12 weeks, 4 days. He said "around 2 months but doesn't really remember" at first. Monday, he said he thinks he was wrong with that info because he remembers looking at it after a fight we had mid-September. So, he had Tinder for 3 months not two. Bumble was new, he installed that (verified with email) 17OCT 22. That checks out. He didn't download them both at the same time, bumble was second when he wasn't getting what he wanted - external validation / ego boost - from Tinder.

@*Deidre* that was covered moment of discovery. He deleted the profiles not the apps. I knew about the ability to just delete apps and the ability to reinstall them later, maintaining logins/accounts. I thought at first he just did that, just delete the apps. But when he started to admit he had them, but deleted them, and started with the unbelievable sayings like "it was nothing" "nothing happened" "it's not what you think", you know, the typical bulls*t sob story, I told him to unlock his phone and I reinstalled the apps. I went to login, he told me the email address he used, the one I verified to have the welcome verification emails on, and instead of a profile it prompted me to create a profile. I then lashed out, not my proudest hour "what did you do? did you delete the profiles??" accuse accuse blame blame hurt hurt etc etc "yes, of course, I'm so scared I want them off my phone forever, I never thought this would break you, I'm sorry, what can I do to fix this" etc etc blah blah. So it was the profiles not just the apps he deleted. I then thought about the cool off period some profiles have, not dating profiles just general social media ones and there are cool off periods when you delete those. I applied that logic but it's not the case with tinder, with bumble there is a chance and I have put it on him to: Can I recover a deleted account? (bumble.com) do that, but tinder it's an instant delete, all information wiped, all messages and matches: Delete Your Tinder Account – Tinder . I confirmed from trying to login with his email that it was deleted not hidden.

I am shocked and ... it just doesn't sit right at all the catfishing. We had another talk last night and I questioned him a fair bit about leading women on and how that is disrespectful to them too and his answer I didn't like, he said "he never gave them a thought, he doesn't care about what they thought about the match or what it meant to them" just like he never thought it would hurt me considering it was for "kibbles" (Ego Kibbles - ChumpLady.com fk me do I love reading chump lady right now) he also never factored into what they wanted, it was purely selfish. Yikes right, until he said that I would never have thought he had a misogyny streak, that makes me so disappointed in him. Moving forward, in IC, he needs to work on why he thinks it's ok to use people for his self esteem like this.

@re16 Hey re, cute avatar. He could have cheated with men, at this stage that wouldn't impact me in a harmful way, it wouldn't give me any lightbulb insights. If he was it's more likely tinder was used for that, bumble is a very 'female empowered dating app' as the onus is placed solely on those who identify as woman shoulders to make the first move, you can't match and chat until the women go first. If it was men though I think he would have grindr on his phone too and I couldn't see in his emails (I spent hours going through everything, dating back to the year we met, there were more before that but since i wasn't in his life there was no point checking those) and tinder and bumble are the only betrayals. The reason why it doesn't matter what gender it was/is is because, to me, the moment he thought it was perfectly ok to put dating apps on his phone was the kick me off the cliff moment in my mind/heart. Unfaithfulness started then.

- - - - -

Before I spent my night combing his emails to see if there was anything more, found nothing, we had another talk.

I continued voicing my concern that I can't trust a thing he is saying because he hasn't offered any truth and verified it by himself, the truth has to be prompted or asked for and it is always contradicted or feels watered down. So, I told him as much as I appreciate the new proactiveness with looking up information, hunting for online IC etc, before we have any more of these talks he needs to verify some of the things he has promised is true. Right now that is contacting bumble to reactivate his deleted profile. If he does that at least it can prove and verify.

I let him know his excuse, the ego boosting, doesn't explain why he continued to be active on it daily if it wasn't working, I still think there is more. Intent needs to be clearer in my mind if that makes sense. To me, he was on tinder to chat to attractive people who gave him a thrill, when that didn't happen fast enough he then tried bumble to cast a wider net. If someone he found attractive DID start talking and boosting his self-esteem and confidence I do not believe he would have stopped, despite telling me he would never get into personal/sexting chats. I told him he should look up limerence and the damage that does to a relationship, not that I believe he experienced that, but he was on the slippery slope to that for sure. I told him he has shown me that if a "better" person arrives I am easily discarded because I obviously don't give him what he wants out of a relationship. He denies that was even an option or that is even possible. I told him to read "not just friends" by glass because in it she does write about how fast the slippery slope is from boundary crossing relationship into an affair, he needs to get that he did that, he started that journey. Even if physical affairs are not a risk, emotional ones sure are. Well, that's what I think/feel.

We talked about how distrustful and disgraceful it was for him to swear on his mother's grave then lie and me catch him on it. He has been holding tremendous guilt over that and he cried hard for a moment about doing that to me and her memory. His mum knitted clothing for premie babies and also suffered for a few decades with numerous reproductive system cancers before ovarian cancer got her. I told him he should look into donating something in her name this christmas to that hospital to make amends. He is looking into that.

I asked him "what did you think would happen? What goals did you want to achieve" What permissions did you give yourself to do this to me?" Pretty much the same response, it was for self-esteem, it was a game where he felt good when there was a match with a pretty woman, he never thought about the impact to marriage or me because he didn't think it was cheating, he knew i wouldn't approve, but he didn't think of it as cheating at the time, he does now, now he knows it was, but back then it was all one 'no big deal'. He admitted he even wanted to talk to me about it, when he got curious and thought he could use it to see if it would boost self-esteem but that was the only time he "thought" about me and decided I wouldn't let him and he was too curious, so he just did it. That's not what he thinks now, just what he thought. He is ashamed of himself the thought like that.

I've been writing down questions since discovery and was calm enough to ask some. I'm paraphrasing his response, just because it takes too long to write out the hours of this Q&A so I will write the "gist" of what he said, I was making notes.

Q 'have I ever interrupted you using it?' and 'have you been on it with me in the same room?' idk, this was important to me yesterday.
A "no, he only was on it during a workday, while waiting for an email or having a break. Never with me in the same room. He said there was no point to be on it when I was around... how TF do I react to that. it's so hard being open but not reactive to this! but I want the truth.

Q 'on average how long were you on it?'
A "it was a time killer, only for a few mins, only used it to kill time, never more than 15, wasn't interesting enough or never gave him enough of a thrill to be hooked, he never just sat down and focused on it, was always using it while waiting for something else to happen in his day, never used it at home because there was no need, he would come and chat to me". This was a contradiction/lie, he has told me he has used it in the home office so he has used it at home. I pointed out this is why it's so hard me to trust anything, I don't need nor want flowery bulls*t I need truth even if he thinks it will hurt me more.

Q 'do you want to date others? do you want to date others with me around?'
A "of course not, i keep saying it wasn't like that, I understand you can't believe me right now but it's the truth'.
Q so I asked 'if I asked you to open the marriage up, would you? is this something you desire?'
A 'no, I don't want that for me or us, I want to be the one for you.'

Q 'why do you need the opposite sex to boost your self-esteem?' and 'why is it so hard to find a healthy way to do it?'
A "this was easy go to place for my ego, everything else costs money and time. I just wanted a quick solution to give me a boost. I know that is wrong now, at the time I thought it was harmless"

Q 'Do you consider yourself a good husband and friend?'
A "At the time yes, now no, I've been a sh*t husband and friend.' I lost it then, cried so we had a time out then he promised he will work hard to become the best of both if you give me the chance.

Q ' did you invite anyone out for coffee and did anyone ask you'
A "No, I never wanted to meet anyone, so I never did. two women, who matched, asked to meet for drinks in their first message 'hi, let's grab a drink?' type of message" and he said he unmatched those and was shocked they didn't want to get to know him first via chat. I told him what did he think would happen on a fking hookup app? they obviously want to, you know, hookup and meet, idiot.

Q I asked if he exchanged pictures or nudes and did anyone flatter you.
A he said tinder has a gallery, he said he only had a profile picture and two in the gallery, again old photos when I asked him to show me, some did show his hair thinking and turning white but still old pics. He said he never asked for pics because the women had the gallery. No nudes asked for to sent. This can be verified on via his photo album on phone which is full of pics but nothing I would be mad at, same with cloud. Of course, no eyes on the messages so who knows what was shown there. I know he told some they looked hot but said no one flattered him in return. Sounds like he was fishing for compliments which he was thirsty for.

Q I asked him since he was unsuccessful on his ego boosting mission, because I busted him, will he try something else now?
A He said no way in which I pointed out the desire had to still be in there, he said he is too fearful he has lost our marriage and me and right now all he can think of is fixing this. He said he has no need to feel good because he won't until he fixes this.

Q Have you ever considered someone we know has seen your profile?
A He freaked about this, never crossed his mind until I asked. Said he is humiliated by the thought, I said that I'm very humiliated by the idea. He spent some time after our talk changing his profile pictures to hobby pictures on his socials, he mostly uses social media for interests, just so no one he matched with can track him down. Apparently, he just used his age and first name, not his last, and it's a common name so he "protected us" by doing this, he did ask me first and I thought that was a smart idea but did tell him the damage has been done, 3 months is enough time for a single friend to see him on it.

I then asked broader questions like 'do you believe the saying once a cheater always a cheater?' 'Do you believe inappropriate texting can lead to affairs?' 'Do you always hide harmful things from me?' 'How would you have kept this hidden from me if I never found out?' 'Do you think husband's downloading dating apps is normal?' ... broad stroke kinds of questions which I felt he answered honestly.

It went on for more, we repeated a lot we covered already. I was surprised I did believe some of the things he said which gave me a headache because, well he cheated. But in the moment, it felt like if we were going to reconcile and work on rebuilding trust these long talks are needed. But I'm very much in the mindset of 'trust but verify', I won't just blinding take his word for it. We also talked about some things we never really communicated about before, things like how we handle the aftermath of a fight and how underappreciated I feel when I do XYZ but he never does those things in return, he just expects it but doesn't value it. It's like we were performing a forensic report of the marriage and if we stay together to 'not do that' or 'be more mindful of that' on the next try. If that makes sense?

I'm wary about some people offering advice or telling betrayed spouses what to do on forums today and the possibility of people faking information or experience with cheating. Not here, want to make that clear, but I have been lurking on some other support forums. See, I spoke to one of the companies that do polys. Polys do not work like many infidelity recovery forum posters say they do, to the point I think they're lying about their experience. I've read people's post advice like "get a timeline then get them to back that up with a poly" but they don't even work like that. A poly is more "did you cheat?" and to me he did, do I really want to spend thousands on something I already know?? The polygraph session does not cover a range, it's single focused, a single target question that is repeated in such a way to catch the person out, then the result is either pass or fail. I could ask if he sexted, or I could ask if he had affairs, but I can't do both. I can't ask questions like 'were you there to replace me?' or 'was your intentions to have an affair?' because that didn't happen, polys cannot detect lies around intent, it's very much single focused bombardment to get a single truth. I thought I would have a long list of questions to ask him, but they don't work like that, that's fictional movie stuff, they just repeat the same question with different wording over and over to catch the lie. Anyway, I will wait to see what the other company says but now I'm very wary of people who tell betrayed partners "Go get a poly and ask XYZ!!!!!!" and "don't believe anything unless they say XYZ!!!" because they themselves obviously have never done this with their own cheater so why even mention it as a solution, you know? If the other company is the same, I'm going to skip it, if I can't get truthful details by asking a list of questions then it's not worth the money, I'm not paying someone to tell me what I know, that he betrayed me.

As for the lawyers I can't get a spot until the new year now, that's ok, no rush to reconcile or divorce and I feel it's one less thing to rush around for over the holiday period. I still want to know what the other side of the coin will look like. I'm going to slowly hunt for important documents in the meantime to scan, just to give me something to do. If I'm not doing something, then I stew over this and I'm just miserable.

@MattMatt hey. He is seeking online IC, video counseling, IC is a must for him. I'm not going to do MC yet, the marriage didn't download tinder he did. If and when I see improvement and he has found a healthy way to manage his self-esteem then I will consider offering MC. There is a women's group IRL that meet at the town hall and they have betrayal recovery group/sessions so I've signed up for that to get some real-life peer support too. It's group therapy and it would be nice to get a hug from someone who has been or is in my shoes right now.

edit: words... I'm so sorry for typos, I typed this out so fast today.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you’ve done very well in handling this. I wasn’t nearly as level-headed as you’ve been.

I wish you the best.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Julie's Husband said:


> It does not justify, but it does indicate that the state of mind and emotions need to be considered.


So exactly what state of mind or emotions justify cheating?
I don't think anyone here is being inconsiderate of his state of mind or emotions, some are just making it abundantly clear that those aren't an excuse to cheat.

@MessyBrain
Check this out along with the 180, it makes some of the same points about exceptions as you did.








The Pretzel Logic of the 180 - ChumpLady.com


If you’ve spent any time reading the reconciliation literature, you’ll notice a lot of reference to the “180.” She won’t stop seeing her affair partner? “Do the 180!” He still works with his ho-worker? “Do the 180!” What is this powerful 180? It was a concept developed by Michelle Weiner-Davis...




www.chumplady.com


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## MessyBrain (2 mo ago)

@Rubix Cubed thank you thank you for the link, you have no idea how much I needed to read...
"
_13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive._
Yeah, nothing like finding out your husband has been rating escorts to make you want to put on some lipstick. WTF? This advice is just denying the reality of the trauma of infidelity. No one feels “cheerful, strong, outgoing, and attractive” after they’ve been intimately humiliated and betrayed.
"
I couldn't be positive even if I won lotto right now and it's the "pressure" that I can't do the 180 without also being upbeat that has kept me from going back and reading more about it. I needed to read that, have only started chump lady so didn't read that page yet. Thanks again for the link.

@Openminded - thank you. I don't feel like I've got it together. I swing from complete detachment to complete mess.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Chump Lady used to post here years ago when I first joined. I wish she still did. I like her no-nonsense approach to dealing with the cheater.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Thank you for your update! It sounds like he’s being honest but it could be out of fear. I feel for your husband, @MessyBrain …I really do. But I also feel for you, too.

I think your husband has taken you for granted and what’s so sad and stands out in your story is that after surviving cancer, he hasn’t learned much from his ordeal. He’s a 50 yo married man and thinks a dating site is what will give him hope and confidence? How do you have cancer for 15 years, survive and not be so utterly grateful for each new day? That’s what is so sad to me. I’m not judging him, I actually fear for him that if battling cancer for fifteen years can’t make him appreciate you and life _as it is,_ what will?

He has to accept that this is the hand he was dealt and find a way to love life despite it. Maybe you’re seeing a side of him (lack of character) that you never knew was there. Life tests us all, we all go through stress and adversity but how he’s coping with it, sounds like the mind of a teenager, and you’re having to explain right from wrong. 😞 Again, not judging him but that’s just what stands out in this story to me.

Anywho, sending you positive vibes - stay strong.🙏


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MessyBrain said:


> @Rubix Cubed thank you thank you for the link, you have no idea how much I needed to read...
> "
> _13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive._
> Yeah, nothing like finding out your husband has been rating escorts to make you want to put on some lipstick. WTF? This advice is just denying the reality of the trauma of infidelity. No one feels “cheerful, strong, outgoing, and attractive” after they’ve been intimately humiliated and betrayed.
> ...


@Openminded is right and I echo those sentiments. You’re handling this like a boss. The rollercoaster is normal, but not everyone can handle it. You got this.

My only advise…don’t react or make big decisions at the top or bottom of said rollercoaster. Always give it a day.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Oh yea, one more thing…that Q & A, I agree with you it sounds like a lot of minimizing. I think we naturally want to minimize things when we’re caught with our hand in the cookie jar.

I suspect WH has not hit bottom yet if he’s still putting ‘appearance’ over ‘transparent’. The jury is out whether he’s trying to protect you or himself. But for either one it needs to stop.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> I think your husband has taken you for granted and what’s so sad and stands out in your story is that after surviving cancer, he hasn’t learned much from his ordeal. He’s a 50 yo married man and thinks a dating site is what will give him hope and confidence? How do you have cancer for 15 years, survive and not be so utterly grateful for each new day?


In my experience some people gain a sense of entitlement due to what they have suffered. Instead of it becoming about the people who stood by it becomes about the self. Instead of being grateful for each moment it becomes about what they think they are owed.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> In my experience some people gain a sense of entitlement due to what they have suffered. Instead of it becoming about the people who stood by it becomes about the self. Instead of being grateful for each moment it becomes about what they think they are owed.


That is so true, good point. Like life owes them something because of all they’ve been through.


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## MessyBrain (2 mo ago)

Everyone here and all the books/articles/blogs etc spoke about "tip of the iceberg", his trickle truths tell me there is more and slow, so so slowly they drip drip drip and I find out more.

So his story has changed a little, I doubt he is even picking it up when he contradicts himself, but it's gone from purely "ego boost" motivations to "I was curious" and "it was an experiment". He won't elaborate, yet, but that's intent to me. If he was "curious" what kind of women he would attract and was "experimenting" how far he could take it, well that's intent and he would have never stopped if I didn't bust him.

I now understand posters who say this time is like pulling teeth. This frustration is sickening. This trickle truth is killing my sanity. I get it, I do, those of you who have said the cheating didn't kill the marriage but the lying beyond that, the trickle truth, the contradictions was the nail in the coffin. Reconciliation is a far less attractive option right now.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

MessyBrain said:


> Everyone here and all the books/articles/blogs etc spoke about "tip of the iceberg", his trickle truths tell me there is more and slow, so so slowly they drip drip drip and I find out more.
> 
> So his story has changed a little, I doubt he is even picking it up when he contradicts himself, but it's gone from purely "ego boost" motivations to "I was curious" and "it was an experiment". He won't elaborate, yet, but that's intent to me. If he was "curious" what kind of women he would attract and was "experimenting" how far he could take it, well that's intent and he would have never stopped if I didn't bust him.
> 
> I now understand posters who say this time is like pulling teeth. This frustration is sickening. This trickle truth is killing my sanity. I get it, I do, those of you who have said the cheating didn't kill the marriage but the lying beyond that, the trickle truth, the contradictions was the nail in the coffin. Reconciliation is a far less attractive option right now.


I think it’s hard for him to admit how low he stooped. And he probably thought you’d accept the first excuse.

I’m sorry. 

You have a lot to process but as he reveals what really motivated him to do all that, I have a feeling your decision will get easier.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

MessyBrain said:


> Everyone here and all the books/articles/blogs etc spoke about "tip of the iceberg", his trickle truths tell me there is more and slow, so so slowly they drip drip drip and I find out more.
> 
> So his story has changed a little, I doubt he is even picking it up when he contradicts himself, but it's gone from purely "ego boost" motivations to "I was curious" and "it was an experiment". He won't elaborate, yet, but that's intent to me. If he was "curious" what kind of women he would attract and was "experimenting" how far he could take it, well that's intent and he would have never stopped if I didn't bust him.
> 
> I now understand posters who say this time is like pulling teeth. This frustration is sickening. This trickle truth is killing my sanity. I get it, I do, those of you who have said the cheating didn't kill the marriage but the lying beyond that, the trickle truth, the contradictions was the nail in the coffin. Reconciliation is a far less attractive option right now.


You are in a very tough situation with this one. He’s in crisis. Existential, mid-life, physical. He is literally trying to find his worth as a man, and as a person… grasping for something to prove that he has a place in the world and still has value. I feel for him and his pain, but that does not excuse what he has done to you. He chose to look for his worth by getting rando’s to tell him he’s hot/sexy/amazing/worthwhile and who knows what else on dating apps. It’s cheap, it’s easy, but it’s never going to fill him up. Quite the opposite. 

You don’t really have any good options here, as he has to figure himself out... And he seems absolutely lost with no signs of emotional stability in sight. I think you’re going to have to protect yourself and your own mental well being at this point. You can’t fix this for him, and you can’t feed his “black hole” of need without making it worse. It’s an inside job and he won’t be a safe partner until he does some really tough work over the long term. I’m sorry that you have to deal with this.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

@MessyBrain - how are things going? Hope you’re doing okay. ☀


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## MessyBrain (2 mo ago)

_sigh_ Thanks for asking, TBH I'm avoiding life, just keeping my head down, doing my job as best as I can considering. I'm very paranoid about who knows my husband was on tinder/bumble, he cast such a wide net and I work in a primarily single female office, and I work close to husband's office, so I wonder who here saw his profile and either chatted with him &/or didn't tell me. 

I'm also so sad. As you know I asked him to reactive his bumble account and I _KNEW_ he would find a way to either avoid this, change his profile before he showed me or prevent me seeing it, ding ding ding, it was door #3. He sat down with me and downloaded bumble again but the app asked for his apple ID before singing it, shock surprise "this never asked me last time, I don't know my apple ID" lie lie lie blah blah blah I kept pushing "you saying you can't download the app because of this apple ID request is a joke/lie/typical cheater BS" and when I didn't back down, he suddenly, miraculously, remembered his apple ID. Downloaded the app, singing in but it asked for him to create a profile. He said, "well looks like I can't show you the profile after all", I stood my ground said until I see that I'm proceeding with separation, he cried foul "can't you see the effort I'm putting in??" to which I responded, "all I see is a cheater doing typical cheater crap". He put this big show of emailing bumble again asking why he couldn't log in but it's just delaying tactics. So, I'm disappointed in him and so very sad. How did I not see the level of disrespect?

He also said something that just made me feel so invisible and worthless. I keep asking the question 'why does he need other women to make him feel so good? don't I make him feel good at all?' and he said I'm just obligated to say the nice things because I'm his wife. I flipped that script "so you just say you find me attractive because you're obligated too?" to which he said 'no, I mean that' and I pointed out how hypocritical and confusing that logic is, why do I have to believe him, but he doesn't believe me? He agreed it didn't make sense, but we got nowhere with that, so I shut it down and went back to my side of the house. 

Hope is dying fast. He needs help. I need space.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

MessyBrain said:


> _sigh_ Thanks for asking, TBH I'm avoiding life, just keeping my head down, doing my job as best as I can considering. I'm very paranoid about who knows my husband was on tinder/bumble, he cast such a wide net and I work in a primarily single female office, and I work close to husband's office, so I wonder who here saw his profile and either chatted with him &/or didn't tell me.
> 
> I'm also so sad. As you know I asked him to reactive his bumble account and I _KNEW_ he would find a way to either avoid this, change his profile before he showed me or prevent me seeing it, ding ding ding, it was door #3. He sat down with me and downloaded bumble again but the app asked for his apple ID before singing it, shock surprise "this never asked me last time, I don't know my apple ID" lie lie lie blah blah blah I kept pushing "you saying you can't download the app because of this apple ID request is a joke/lie/typical cheater BS" and when I didn't back down, he suddenly, miraculously, remembered his apple ID. Downloaded the app, singing in but it asked for him to create a profile. He said, "well looks like I can't show you the profile after all", I stood my ground said until I see that I'm proceeding with separation, he cried foul "can't you see the effort I'm putting in??" to which I responded, "all I see is a cheater doing typical cheater crap". He put this big show of emailing bumble again asking why he couldn't log in but it's just delaying tactics. So, I'm disappointed in him and so very sad. How did I not see the level of disrespect?
> 
> ...


I’m sorry you’re going through such confusion and pain.

It’s sad that he is making you go through all this when he could just be honest. Idk, I think the relationship has changed, and you’re left now with someone whom you don’t really know anymore. He seems like he’s taken the one person who has been there for him, for granted.

What has he said he’d like to see happen with the marriage?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MessyBrain said:


> _sigh_ Thanks for asking, TBH I'm avoiding life, just keeping my head down, doing my job as best as I can considering. I'm very paranoid about who knows my husband was on tinder/bumble, he cast such a wide net and I work in a primarily single female office, and I work close to husband's office, so I wonder who here saw his profile and either chatted with him &/or didn't tell me.
> 
> I'm also so sad. As you know I asked him to reactive his bumble account and I _KNEW_ he would find a way to either avoid this, change his profile before he showed me or prevent me seeing it, ding ding ding, it was door #3. He sat down with me and downloaded bumble again but the app asked for his apple ID before singing it, shock surprise "this never asked me last time, I don't know my apple ID" lie lie lie blah blah blah I kept pushing "you saying you can't download the app because of this apple ID request is a joke/lie/typical cheater BS" and when I didn't back down, he suddenly, miraculously, remembered his apple ID. Downloaded the app, singing in but it asked for him to create a profile. He said, "well looks like I can't show you the profile after all", I stood my ground said until I see that I'm proceeding with separation, he cried foul "can't you see the effort I'm putting in??" to which I responded, "all I see is a cheater doing typical cheater crap". He put this big show of emailing bumble again asking why he couldn't log in but it's just delaying tactics. So, I'm disappointed in him and so very sad. How did I not see the level of disrespect?
> 
> ...


If he hasn't come clean with you and stopped all the lying BS, then you know what that means. You've read all the blogs and forums and such.

Even if he promises the moon, he's still hiding secrets and will go back to getting those jollies as soon as he thinks it's safe.

I'm sorry about that, I was hoping for a better update.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

MessyBrain said:


> _sigh_ Thanks for asking, TBH I'm avoiding life, just keeping my head down, doing my job as best as I can considering. I'm very paranoid about who knows my husband was on tinder/bumble, he cast such a wide net and I work in a primarily single female office, and I work close to husband's office, so I wonder who here saw his profile and either chatted with him &/or didn't tell me.
> 
> I'm also so sad. As you know I asked him to reactive his bumble account and I _KNEW_ he would find a way to either avoid this, change his profile before he showed me or prevent me seeing it, ding ding ding, it was door #3. He sat down with me and downloaded bumble again but the app asked for his apple ID before singing it, shock surprise "this never asked me last time, I don't know my apple ID" lie lie lie blah blah blah I kept pushing "you saying you can't download the app because of this apple ID request is a joke/lie/typical cheater BS" and when I didn't back down, he suddenly, miraculously, remembered his apple ID. Downloaded the app, singing in but it asked for him to create a profile. He said, "well looks like I can't show you the profile after all", I stood my ground said until I see that I'm proceeding with separation, he cried foul "can't you see the effort I'm putting in??" to which I responded, "all I see is a cheater doing typical cheater crap". He put this big show of emailing bumble again asking why he couldn't log in but it's just delaying tactics. So, I'm disappointed in him and so very sad. How did I not see the level of disrespect?
> 
> ...


How about, “We are separating and I will be looking into my options for a divorce. What you do and what evidence you present to me for considering reconciliation is your choice, but I do not accept your current terms.” And actually start making plans for your life without him.

When you have hope and expectation for a person who demonstrates they don’t deserve it, you will be disappointed and let down.


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