# Well it has happened...



## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in Sex in Marriage but here goes.

If any of you know my story my wife and I have been having sex issues for a while now. The last two years have been really bad and I have been really pushing.

I have warned her several times that eventually I am going to lose my attraction to her. And now, it seems to have happened. Now *I* don't care if we have sex. I haven't initiated it and we haven't had any in over a month.

Yes, I have told her this but I still don't think it is registering. The problem is that I haven't lost the drive, just the interest in her. What now?

On a side note, I just read NMMG finally. I will probably post about that elsewhere. There are certainly aspects of me that fit the "Nice Guy" model.

I really have to begin working on myself I guess but right now I am not hopeful for much...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Exactly! What now? This is not a game you are going to win. She is going to hold out MUCH longer than you.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Yep its been a whole month since you had sex..time to end it.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Anon Pink,

To what end?

dallasapple,

Obviously you don't know my story, I am not specifically complaining about the month without...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I fully get what you mean OP. Perhaps it would be more of a sex in marriage question because those that have not gone through this won't understand.



> Yes, I have told her this but I still don't think it is registering. The problem is that I haven't lost the drive, just the interest in her. What now?


 Try again, sometimes when we lose the desire for the rejector it is crushing but at some point something has to happen. Try again, stand up and tell her exactly what is going on in your mind. Do it in a non accusatory way. How is the communication? Does she really understand what you are saying, do you understand what she is saying?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Anon Pink,
> 
> To what end?
> 
> ...


what is your story?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Holland said:


> Try again, sometimes when we lose the desire for the rejector it is crushing but at some point something has to happen. Try again, stand up and tell her exactly what is going on in your mind. Do it in a non accusatory way. How is the communication? Does she really understand what you are saying, do you understand what she is saying?


I have been telling her for two years straight. Either she isn't getting it or she doesn't care...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have been telling her for two years straight. *Either she isn't getting it or she doesn't care..*.


Both can actually be the same thing. If a partner did care they would take the steps needed to understand, they would be proactive. It is a tough situation *frustr8dhubby* and I feel your pain. 
In the end I filed for divorce because it became clear that I was not that important, mind you this was an almost 20 year relationship. Standard story, everything else was there, fantastic kids, money, social life, etc but the removing of intimacy in the marriage almost killed me so I had to move on. Only you know what your limits are, I really wish you well.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

When I seen your thread title, I was hoping for better news - Sorry Frustrated  ... I just view your wife as a cruel heartless woman ..the decimator of her own marriage... I can not stomach any sympathy for those who dish sexlessness - even to a Nice Guy husband.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

What I mean is you think by no asking her for sex, she'll wake up one day and realize how long it's been, then she'll initiate sex and you'll get to say no and then she'll see how it feels for a change. This Won't Work.

I looked for your other threads but could find enough info, probably your story is buried among many different threads. Assuming a sex
Ess marriage, you do everything you can for her, everything she asks for, everything you can think of, and she still refuses sex.

I am so sorry you are going through this, you and so many other husbands... I sure wish we could have a TAM convention for the wives of the men in sexless marriage. We TAM wives would knock some sense into them!

Try this:
I want sex. I need sex. I want sex with you and I want it several times every week. Is this a problem for you? I'm Sorry to hear that. So, if you are not interested, I should assume it's okay to get sex from someone else?

What do you think she'd say or do?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Holland said:


> Both can actually be the same thing. If a partner did care they would take the steps needed to understand, they would be proactive. It is a tough situation *frustr8dhubby* and I feel your pain.
> In the end I filed for divorce because it became clear that I was not that important, mind you this was an almost 20 year relationship. Standard story, everything else was there, fantastic kids, money, social life, etc but the removing of intimacy in the marriage almost killed me so I had to move on. Only you know what your limits are, I really wish you well.


Thanks. That is where I am at. I just cannot believe that she doesn't care. Maybe that is part of being the "nice guy", that maybe she doesn't think I am really that close even though I have told her specifically on multiple occasions that we are headed for separation or divorce if we don't work through this..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> What I mean is you think by no asking her for sex, she'll wake up one day and realize how long it's been, then she'll initiate sex and you'll get to say no and then she'll see how it feels for a change. This Won't Work.
> 
> I looked for your other threads but could find enough info, probably your story is buried among many different threads. Assuming a sex
> Ess marriage, you do everything you can for her, everything she asks for, everything you can think of, and she still refuses sex.
> ...


Its too late she is a cruel heartless cold women.Besides even if she "changed her mind tomorrow" who in the world would even want to have sex with a cruel heartless woman?Cruel heartless evil people don't change just because they have sex..


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> What I mean is you think by no asking her for sex, she'll wake up one day and realize how long it's been, then she'll initiate sex and you'll get to say no and then she'll see how it feels for a change. This Won't Work.


Actually that isn't my intention. I've tried that and previously I couldn't bring myself to reject her. Now, I genuinely don't care anymore.



Anon Pink said:


> I looked for your other threads but could find enough info, probably your story is buried among many different threads. Assuming a sex
> Ess marriage, you do everything you can for her, everything she asks for, everything you can think of, and she still refuses sex.
> 
> I am so sorry you are going through this, you and so many other husbands... I sure wish we could have a TAM convention for the wives of the men in sexless marriage. We TAM wives would knock some sense into them!
> ...


We have had that conversation too on more than one occasion.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Folks, thanks for the support but she isn't cruel and heartless. Asexual maybe or not attracted to me for years and can't admit it but not heartless..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have been telling her for two years straight. Either she isn't getting it or she doesn't care...


You don't think there is any other alternative than that?Really?

Either she doesn't "get it" or she "doesn't care" are the only two reasonings in your mind?

Im really curious..those are the only two possibillites?What about the other suggestions such as that she is cruel and heartless?

and ya'll have children?If you have children and even take that seriously you need to get custody..its not about you anymore.your children should have as limited contact with a cruel and heartless woman..that would be my concern..you can move on and find someone else to have sex with..but your children only have one mother.If she is cruel and heartless I would be concerned about my children more than myself..but that just me..(((((HUGS))))))


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Obviously you don't know my story


No offense, but most of us don't have time to read every thread posted. So when people start NEW threads, and expect us to know their story, it puts more work on us to go find the other threads. You could have just added on to your existing thread and we'd be able to look back to follow it.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Folks, thanks for the support but she isn't cruel and heartless. Asexual maybe or not attracted to me for years and can't admit it but not heartless..



O;K sorry ..I just went with a suggestion someone else made..WHEW ..she is not cruel and heartless..

Just asexual.That wont hurt the kids.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> What I mean is you think by no asking her for sex, she'll wake up one day and realize how long it's been, then she'll initiate sex and you'll get to say no and then she'll see how it feels for a change. This Won't Work.


Exactly..NAIL in coffin! you will never be asked again!


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

turnera said:


> No offense, but most of us don't have time to read every thread posted. So when people start NEW threads, and expect us to know their story, it puts more work on us to go find the other threads. You could have just added on to your existing thread and we'd be able to look back to follow it.


Sorry, I don't expect anyone to go look up my story. This was mainly posted for those that do like SA.

dallasapple, I assume you are just being sarcastic? Again, if you don't know my story I don't expect you to read/respond nor do I expect you to go look me up.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I am so sorry for you. As a low drive wife myself I don't understand wives who make no effort at all. I work incredibly hard to keep my husband happy and my greatest fear is that it won't be enough. I would never blame a spouse for giving up when there is no effort to meet needs.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I think that is what has finally shut me down. There is just no effort. I know that she is never going to have my level of drive but she doesn't want to go to counseling, won't get her levels checked, nothing. That's the thing that makes me think that she just doesn't care.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> This was mainly posted for those that do like SA.


Oh O.k you posted mainly for people who like SA (what is SA?) which wouldnt be me I guess then..LOL


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You're in quite the mood tonight dallas.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> There is just no effort. I know that she is never going to have my level of drive but she doesn't want to go to counseling, won't get her levels checked, nothing.


Umm..sorry.. Not ever having your level of drive isn't her making no effort.Just like you not lowering your drive isn't you making no effort.And no I'm not being sarcastic..If a drive is that easily changeable why not lower yours rather than her raise hers?:scratchhead:How much counseling and effort have you made to lower your drive to be closer to hers?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> Oh O.k you posted mainly for people who like SA (what is SA?) which wouldnt be me I guess then..LOL


SA is SimplyAmorous. She is quite famous around here.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're in quite the mood tonight dallas.


I don't know what SA is..That's my mood! (what is SA :scratchhead


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> SA is SimplyAmorous. She is quite famous around here.



OHHHHHH....K...got it! I thought it was a section of the forum..

Yeah..O.K...that makes sense..


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> Umm..sorry.. Not ever having your level of drive isn't her making no effort.Just like you not lowering your drive isn't you making no effort.And no I'm not being sarcastic..If a drive is that easily changeable why not lower yours rather than her raise hers?:scratchhead:How much counseling and effort have you made to lower your drive to be closer to hers?


Are you drinking or something? I said she cannot change her level of drive but she could make an effort to make up for it. I de facto have to change mine because otherwise I would be bugging her for sex daily. There are plenty of LD women on this site that make some effort (see Giro flee's comments).


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're in quite the mood tonight dallas.


I swear to God I thought SA was a "thing" or a place"..but now that I know what SA is it makes total sense.It all adds up.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Time to put down the bottle of merlot and go to bed D.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Are you drinking or something? I said she cannot change her level of drive but she could make an effort to make up for it. I de facto have to change mine because otherwise I would be bugging her for sex daily. There are plenty of LD women on this site that make some effort (see Giro flee's comments).


Why would I have to be drinking ?I mean really do you have to make it up to her your drive is higher?Its a simple concept.And you wanting to have sex everyday is HIGH drive..someone who doesn't want sex everyday is not "low drive" there is a middle you know not just low and high..even a car has (normally ) 5 speeds.Maybe she is 2nd or 3rd gear?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok, so if he wants it 7 days a week, and she wants it 0 days....and they're currently having sex, um, 0 days a week; which one is the one compromising and putting in the effort? Where is that middle ground you're talking about? They're both putting in equal effort? Is this the new math in Texas?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ok, so if he wants it 7 days a week, and she wants it 0 days....and they're currently having sex, um, 0 days a week; which one is the one compromising and putting in the effort? Where is that middle ground you're talking about? They're both putting in equal effort? Is this the new math in Texas?


I thought they were having sex 0 days a week because he quit asking?:scratchhead:

There isn't a whole lot of info.I thought he said it had been a month since he quit asking?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Umm..sorry.. Not ever having your level of drive isn't her making no effort.Just like you not lowering your drive isn't you making no effort.And no I'm not being sarcastic..If a drive is that easily changeable why not lower yours rather than her raise hers?:scratchhead:How much counseling and effort have you made to lower your drive to be closer to hers?





dallasapple said:


> Why would I have to be drinking ?I mean really do you have to make it up to her your drive is higher?Its a simple concept.And you wanting to have sex everyday is HIGH drive..someone who doesn't want sex everyday is not "low drive" there is a middle you know not just low and high..even a car has (normally ) 5 speeds.Maybe she is 2nd or 3rd gear?


Dallas, WOM said that because your responses seem to be very contrary... I don't know, maybe you're trying to pick a fight with someone? :scratchhead:

At any rate...

You suggested that he lower his drive... how much lower can it go than ZERO? SERO sex... And it's not a difficult concept to grasp here. He WANTS sex more, but aquiesces to HER wants (or lack thereof). He's not talking about raising her level of drive... he's talking about checking her HORMONE LEVELS...you know, something that is suggested to women when their husbands have no interest in sex. Again, an EASY concept to grasp! And counseling? Gee, I would suspect he would want that to see if there is any way AT ALL to bridge the gap. Again... EASY CONCEPT... even for someone who hasn't read all his threads (no offense frustr8edhubby). And I'm sure you can figure out that there is a problem if she doesn't want sex at all, and is unwilling to even try to find a way to fix the problem...and yes, there IS a problem that CAN be fixed if she were willing to put forth the effort. Again, same thing that would be said to a man who has zero drive and no interest in trying to get it figured out.... VERY simple concepts...and not sure, really, why you couldn't recognize that...


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

As the low drive spouse I can not fathom thinking that my husband should just never have sex. If we had sex at my pace it might happen twice a year. As an adult I realize that I am the one who is on the wrong part of the bell curve. If I do nothing to fix the problem I would expect my husband will get very resentful, which has happened several times through the years. Sometimes it takes so much effort on my part but I love my husband and our marriage and family deserve my best effort.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I thought they were having sex 0 days a week because he quit asking?:scratchhead:
> 
> There isn't a whole lot of info.*I thought he said it had been a month since he quit asking?*


He said it's been over a month since he has initiated, and that also menat over a month since they have had sex (he stated that, I didn't infer). But, the issue has been ongoing for years. From the little I DID glean from some of his older posts, she got better at trying for a short time... but then went back to the old ways. So, no, it's not a matter of not having sex in a month. It's about having a very unfulfilling sexlife for years because she has no interest in it...and no interest in even trying to figure out WHY she is the way she is. Sure, she could be asexual...but she may NOT be. It could be a matter of hormone levels too low. And what advice would be given if the man had low hormone levels? Find ways to raise it! Get on medication/treatment to get the levels back up! Same thing here...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Now *I* don't care if we have sex. I haven't initiated it and we haven't had any in over a month.


See its been "over a month" but sounds like because he hasn't initiated..If he had initiated sounds like he would have "had sex" in the past month.

That is the real problem.And I know this because I'm an old timer and been around the block..I bet he can "get sex" from her even "weekly"..but my guess is ....(drum roll) ..he WANTS her to WANT him?????Is that close?

So if she doesn't want him... last time since sex doesn't even matter .Doesn't matter if it was yesterday.If she just "had sex" but didnt want him.(or sex ).

The crux of the matter is wanting to be wanted.Not just wanting sex.That's why #'s don't matter all that much..For me anyway.Being wanted with passion once a week is a hell of lot better than not being wanted but "compliance sex" every day.But of course that's me..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> He said it's been over a month since he has initiated, and that also menat over a month since they have had sex (he stated that, I didn't infer). But, the issue has been ongoing for years. From the little I DID glean from some of his older posts, she got better at trying for a short time... but then went back to the old ways. So, no, it's not a matter of not having sex in a month. It's about having a very unfulfilling sexlife for years because she has no interest in it...and no interest in even trying to figure out WHY she is the way she is. Sure, she could be asexual...but she may NOT be. It could be a matter of hormone levels too low. And what advice would be given if the man had low hormone levels? Find ways to raise it! Get on medication/treatment to get the levels back up! Same thing here...


I understand I knew it wasn't just this "last month"..but its still the principle of the matter..I bet he could have "gotten sex" this last month..So lets be honest..he doesn't just want "sex'.He wants to be wanted..(sorry that song by Cheap Trick is my husbands theme song to me forgive me..)

And I agree if she has NO desire physically??? Doctor! If she has normal "desire" but doesn't want to sleep with him COUNSELOR!!!

No doubt..


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> See its been "over a month" but sounds like because he hasn't initiated..If he had initiated sounds like he would have "had sex" in the past month.
> 
> That is the real problem.And I know this because I'm an old timer and been around the block..I bet he can "get sex" from her even "weekly"..but my guess is ....(drum roll) ..he WANTS her to WANT him?????Is that close?
> 
> ...


You're definitely on to something there. Assuming you're not being sarcastic I think you're right with this post. That IS what it's all about. Wanting to be wanted. It's not enough for her to just comply.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Sure, she could be asexual...but she may NOT be.


I think that is like 1/2 of 1% of the population..The odds of her being physically "asexual" are about 1 in 6.5 billion or something.

Shes probably "normal"..but is mad at him..(my best guess.. and the odds of that are more like 1 in 5 )


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're definitely on to something there. Assuming you're not being sarcastic I think you're right with this post. That IS what it's all about. Wanting to be wanted. It's not enough for her to just comply.


WHY do I always have to be being sarcastic! YES I'm comedic but I'm also "highly sensitive" and "in touch" hence my ability with humor..

The reality is (no joke) we ALL want to be "wanted"..and accepted..desired not JUST sexually but YES sex..but especially marriage! NO one else will do..you are IT..its not even just for "sex" either its just smushing together..sounds ...smell..ya know what I mean..then the next day you don't "part ways" (like casual sex)and you have that twinkle in your eye..a look..and you are together forever..and we want to be wanted by THAT person and each other or it breaks our heart...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Time to put down the bottle of merlot and go to bed D.


What would you say if I said I don't drink?Time to start drinking?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> What would you say if I said I don't drink?Time to start drinking?


I'd say time to put down the pipe.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'd say time to put down the pipe.



:rofl:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

SOOOOOO not true..Bunch of BS!!!!(sorry OP that was for WOM)..

But I have a song for you OP ..my husband dedicated it to me about 10 years or so ago..it pissed me off at the time..but now I think its cute..

Maybe send it to your wife??

Cheap Trick - I Want You To Want Me (Budokan Live - Audio Version) (1978) - YouTube


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> I don't know what SA is..That's my mood! (what is SA :scratchhead


Dallas, you are cracking me up...someone's had a bit too much coffee today...?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I had no clue what the OPs backstory was but it wasn't too hard to figure out. But that is life in forums, plenty of PA and/or contrary people usually triggered by issues in their own lives. Our own lives cloud our opinions.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Dallas, you are cracking me up...someone's had a bit too much coffee today...?



Whats really funny ..is I wasn't even TRYING to be funny! I had NO idea what "SA" was...seriously how would I know that..Its not like KWIM or WTF.. sorry...

And no I didn't have too much coffee just because I don't know some member here is referred to with a symbol like prince..and no I'm not drunk either.I don't follow that person or know she has a following .Now I know though..and I bet I know why..but that's O.K.....I didn't know it was that serious...that if I "didn't know who SA was " WHOA!!!! LOL!! I must be stoned or drunk ...Um NO..Not at all ..I just didn't pay that much attention..


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Frustrated,

Dallas makes some very valid points, but I assume those points have already been covered in your other threads.
So, you want sex often.
You want her to not only WANT sex but you want her to WANT you.
You have tried getting her to the doc, to therapy, to biofeedback, to yoga and riding a Harley... Have you tried the Harley?

I can impinge how much this hurts you. Will you stay married to her and put up with this? Will you leave her? What will you do?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> Whats really funny ..is I wasn't even TRYING to be funny! I had NO idea what "SA" was...seriously how would I know that..Its not like KWIM or WTF.. sorry...
> 
> And no I didn't have too much coffee just because I don't know some member here is referred to with a symbol like prince..and no I'm not drunk either.I don't follow that person or know she has a following .Now I know though..and I bet I know why..but that's O.K.....I didn't know it was that serious...that if I "didn't know who SA was " WHOA!!!! LOL!! I must be stoned or drunk ...Um NO..Not at all ..I just didn't pay that much attention..


You were on a roll, I'm sorry if you it felt like I was making fun of you. You made excellent points! What was funny was your posts seemed to be happening so fast you were missing the previous posts.. Ive seen it before in threads and it always cracks me up. It's like two people saying the same thing at the same time...

You're good!


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> See its been "over a month" but sounds like because he hasn't initiated..If he had initiated sounds like he would have "had sex" in the past month.
> 
> That is the real problem.And I know this because I'm an old timer and been around the block..I bet he can "get sex" from her even "weekly"..but my guess is ....(drum roll) ..he WANTS her to WANT him?????Is that close?
> 
> ...



Its not just you. I can relate to this. And its dead on. Its something i dont think my wife understands (or cares to understand), and i often wonder if i will ever regain it with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> You were on a roll, I'm sorry if you it felt like I was making fun of you. You made excellent points! What was funny was your posts seemed to be happening so fast you were missing the previous posts.. Ive seen it before in threads and it always cracks me up. It's like two people saying the same thing at the same time...
> 
> You're good!


Yeah I got lost no problem sweets! Make fun of me all you want I will roll with you!!!But I agree I made good points 

As usual I doubt its about "times of sex"..Its about do you want me..(and that is not just a man delima I know women too)They WANT to be desired a.k.a wanted..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

naga75 said:


> Its not just you. I can relate to this. And its dead on. Its something i dont think my wife understands (or cares to understand), and i often wonder if i will ever regain it with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe they have a "block" because its not that hard to undesrtand?


And for the record I live with a kind of poon hound I was the one "running" a little (or a lot) but I still get needing to be wanted..So Im not biased...I don't think I've ever been rejected .I think 2 times and I remember those..i GET FULLY ..The importance of knowing you are desired...Not even "just the sex part " but seeking your company..."seeing you" ..the of course..smell and yada yada yada yada BANG BANG!!!!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Folks, thanks for the support but she isn't cruel and heartless. Asexual maybe or not attracted to me for years and can't admit it but not heartless..


If your W is asexual ultimatums won't work, because this won't be a choice for her but her orientation. However, you need to find this out for sure, and counseling is probably the way to go.

I was married to an asexual man for 6 years, so I can empathize with you.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

OP why havent you filed for divorce?

Or told her, 'if sex is not important to you, then it's no big deal if i have it with someone else?'


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Frustrated,
> 
> Dallas makes some very valid points, but I assume those points have already been covered in your other threads.
> So, you want sex often.
> ...


I don't know, that is what I am fighting. This has been ongoing for about 8 years and been really bad the last 2.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

anonim said:


> OP why havent you filed for divorce?
> 
> Or told her, 'if sex is not important to you, then it's no big deal if i have it with someone else?'


Because in all other aspects she is good to me and a good mother to my children...


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple,

Sorry, I couldn't quite get where you were coming from. Yes, you are dead on. It isn't about the sex itself. I could get duty sex from her once a week if that was all that mattered. I am tired of feeling rejected and unwanted from the one I love... That is compounded by my own stupid self-esteem issues. (Which is probably a vicious circle that may be causing her unattraction to me in the first place).


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Holland said:


> In the end I filed for divorce because it became clear that I was not that important, mind you this was an almost 20 year relationship. Standard story, everything else was there, fantastic kids, money, social life, etc but the removing of intimacy in the marriage almost killed me so I had to move on.


I have an idea. Let's ignore this post and go off on a bunch of tangents. This is probably my new "most important post ever". 

Everything else was great but you left because of the lack of intimacy? That is a MASSIVE move. You are my new hero. How did that work out? I can't bring myself to do it. How did you explain it to everyone. How did SHE take it? Maybe for once she was a walk-away that got blindsided for a change. Fascinating.



Anon Pink said:


> Try this:
> I want sex. I need sex. I want sex with you and I want it several times every week. Is this a problem for you? I'm Sorry to hear that. So, if you are not interested, I should assume it's okay to get sex from someone else.


I love this thread. 

That is almost exactly the conversation I'm planning on having with my wife next week. She's off from work, the kids are in school. I'm home. I have been MISERABLE in my marriage for almost 4 years now. It's NOT going to get better . I need to shake it up.

Oh, and here is the answer to everyone's question: she's just not into you any more. She doesn't love you. But that's not the reason she doesn't try. The reason for that is she is physically repulsed by you. That's why I'm having the "I'm going outside the fold" conversation with her. It's not for sex: an internet browser and a bottle of hand cream will take care of that. I need someone to want me. Coming to the realization that the love of my life not only doesn't love me, but most likely doesn;t even like me, and is almost certainly repulsed by me does a job on you ego. I need to be wanted. Desired. And it's NOT happening with my walk-away-wife.

Good luck. Shake things up. She's too comfortable with the dysfunction. It CAN'T get worse. It just can't.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Choosing to leave your marriage when all attempts to reconcile or compromise on lack of intimacy isn't uncommon at all.

Unfortunately, what is more common is that the partner experiencing lack of intimacy looks to fill the gap in their otherwise 'great' marriage with someone else.

At which point, when they do divorce ... which should have happened in the first place, it isn't because there was lack of intimacy, it's because 'my sonuvab!tch spouse was having an affair.'

And yes, I agree that one spouse becomes completely comfortable with the others _discomfort_.

That is the first paradigm that needs changing. He or she needs to be EQUALLY uncomfortable ... thus stimulating an environment for change, one way or the other.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> dallasapple,
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't quite get where you were coming from. Yes, you are dead on. It isn't about the sex itself. I could get duty sex from her once a week if that was all that mattered. I am tired of feeling rejected and unwanted from the one I love... That is compounded by my own stupid self-esteem issues. (Which is probably a vicious circle that may be causing her unattraction to me in the first place).


 Did she ever react the way you wanted?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Yes prior to children. She is now totally in mommy mode and can no longer think of herself as a sexual being (IMO).


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Yes prior to children. She is now totally in mommy mode and can no longer think of herself as a sexual being (IMO).



"Yes prior to children. She is now totally in mommy mode and can no longer think of herself as a sexual being *with me* (IMO)."

I fixed that to make it a little more accurate.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Well that is still the question at hand isn't it?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MrK said:


> Everything else was great but you left because of the lack of intimacy? That is a MASSIVE move. You are my new hero. How did that work out? I can't bring myself to do it. How did you explain it to everyone. How did SHE take it? Maybe for once she was a walk-away that got blindsided for a change. Fascinating.
> .


MrK, Holland was the wife.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Well that is still the question at hand isn't it?


Maybe. But the day I realized my wife WAS horny for other men, just not me, was a huge surprise. I remember where I was. Like when John Lennon was shot. She's not horny at all? Fine. Hand lotion and porn. Not horny for ME? World crashes. 

So no. It's NOT the question at hand.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

If she HAD a sex drive (not faking it), then she is not asexual.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

3Xnocharm said:


> MrK, Holland was the wife.


Hmmm... Fascinating. Makes more sense now. A wife WOULD take the bull by the horns and do something.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I see two things, then. First, I would do some research and bring to her attention that many women move their love from their partner to their children, but that this is not healthy - there needs to be a balance. Maybe it's just never occurred to her that she's doing it.

Second, you need to do a lot of reading about what it takes to KEEP a woman wanting you. There is a LOT to learn. Start with MMSLP and No More Mr. Nice Guy. Throw in Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Yes, I have told her this but I still don't think it is registering. The problem is that I haven't lost the drive, just the interest in her. What now?


If you've been talking to your wife for 2 years, my advice is to stop talking. Banging your head against the wall isn't going to hurt the wall.

I understand the temptation to view your wife's lack of interest in you as a character flaw of hers. But it's not. She is acting rationally. She gets what she wants and she gives only what you demand, which is infrequent, passionless sex. It works for her. Whining to her that you would like for her to do more for you, but that it's optional, because you're willing to accept the status quo, is not a winning strategy.

I suggest you take action. The type of action is entirely up to you. You could live as roommates. You could have an open marriage where you get your sexual needs met elsewhere. You could have affairs. You could leave her.

It's possible that, by taking action, you will be able to spark her interest in you again. And if you don't, at least you're doing something besides complaining about your wife.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

MrK said:


> Hmmm... Fascinating. Makes more sense now. A wife WOULD take the bull by the horns and do something.


Some wives would some wives wouldn't just as some men will and some men wont.I know more than one woman that divorced her husband over lack of intimacy as the main reason(some had great marriage otherwise others had more than one complaint but the lack of intimacy at least was the last straw) but I also know women who live in either completely sexless marriages (litterally no sex in years) and they stay for other reasons including they still love their husband and or don't want to put the kids through a divorce and women in marriages where they have WAY less sexual intimacy than they would like(example she would love sex 2 times a week) he doesn't seem to even think about it for a month or 6 weeks and only when she initiates they ever have it.And they stay.And YES it makes them feel undesired and that their spouse for some reason is repulsed by them.(specifically physically).Especially because no these men aren't "asexual" because they seem to like to "look" at other women.An NO they aren't having affairs.But they may look at porn and or have long distance (FB type) fliratious interludes with other women even old GF's.Its a problem with intimacy rather than a problem with not having any sexual desire.The hangup is in their head not their loins.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> She is acting rationally. She gets what she wants and she gives only what you demand, which is infrequent, passionless sex.


The only problem is I'm sure if he could he would "demand" passion.But that's just it you cant demand what is not there.So all she has to give is the physical part.Passion is a FEELING an emotion that you "detect" when its expressed and demonstrated in attitude and how a person acts about something.If you don't have it or feel it you cant express it.You can "fake it" but then that is just as hurtful because the point would still be they do not have really have desire and PASSION for you and besides its hard to fake over the long term + then you are living a lie.It like expecting someone to burst out crying in tears and sob from sadness..When they aren't sad at all..and on demand.Most can not do it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why the books I recommended will change things.


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## justforfun1222 (Feb 6, 2013)

I have not read your other threads, but I am truly sorry for what you are going through.. it is not only the physical needs that don't get met when this happens, it is rejection and the feeling that something might be wrong with you... I think you might need to sit down and tell her that if there is no sex in your marriage that it is a deal breaker, she might not believe that you will actually leave or divorce her over it since you have been talking about it for 2 years.. there might also be the fact that there is some kind of hormonal imbalance that needs to be checked out.. I wish you the best!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

turnera said:


> That's why the books I recommended will change things.


O.K I didn't see them but yeah.The issue is she has no passion for him it sounds like not even a little bit so the question would be why or where did it go and how to somehow get it back.Not just "start having sex with me or I'm divorcing you " then complain there is no passion...well I think you already knew that what did you expect?You can't "demand it"..That is too huge a part of sex with someone you love.Otherwise you might as well just go "have sex" with someone you don't even know and will never see again or a prostitute or whatever.You aren't going to expect an exchange of passion for each other .Or know they really desire YOU .The stranger just wants sex you could be anyone they could care less..the prostitute is just doing her job no money no honey.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MrK said:


> Hmmm... Fascinating. Makes more sense now. A wife WOULD take the bull by the horns and do something.


I don't know why it's fascinating :scratchhead:

I'm a woman and I also turned my back on a sexless marriage... I did explore every avenue before doing so (counseling), but there was no way I could have lived that way.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I don't know why it's fascinating :scratchhead:
> 
> I'm a woman and I also turned my back on a sexless marriage... I did explore every avenue before doing so (counseling), but there was no way I could have lived that way.


I think some people are so biased they can not believe that women are living in sexless marriages in the first place(where the man is the one not interested) as well in significant #'s too not like some rare exception.My neighbor /my brothers long term SO(13 years together)..3 of my close GF's...and 1,000's of women I have just read their stories on forums.If I have personally (just me ..ONE little ole person) ecountered that many than good lord..Its a lot of women experiencing it.Of course they don't all leave over it.But it deeply saddens them.And they have all THOUGHT about leaving at the very least.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Funny right now on that new reality show?Its 3 professional relationship therapist.So far one out of only maybe 6 clients they have profiled is in fact a woman complaining she wants more sex and affection ..Now of course in this case I'm kinds more on the guys side because she is very demanding and aggressive.They have sex a couple times a week she wants in at least every other day and she complains he doesn't show her enough affection in general.She said "I NEED to be TOUCHED at least 6 times a DAY! It was neat because I could totally relate to the guy.I felt sorry for him he looked like a deer in the lights.I was relieved when the counselor told her to BACK OFF! She didnt say that her "need" for more was the priority need and he needed to just "do it" whether he wanted to her not.But that SHE was running him further away...he was pretty much being "bullied" by her.And she is saying SHE is going to divorce him.

Anyway that's a different scenerio.But still its a stereotype that I see that completely was in reverse.I just hope if it had been in reverse the counselor wouldn't have told her that it was her duty to provide him sex whenever he wanted.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

turnera said:


> Second, you need to do a lot of reading about what it takes to KEEP a woman wanting you. There is a LOT to learn. Start with MMSLP and No More Mr. Nice Guy. Throw in Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.


No offense, I appreciate the input, but I really have no interest in playing games to KEEP her. She certainly isn't doing anything to KEEP me!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> No offense, I appreciate the input, but I really have no interest in playing games to KEEP her. She certainly isn't doing anything to KEEP me!


Um..you did say the reason you haven't left yet is she is otherwise a good wife to you ....so she is obviously doing some things to keep you .If she wasn't doing ANYTHING to keep you then this would be a whole different issue.You have it sounds like ONE (major) issue.Why would you not be willing to do anything to try and turn it around?Why would you be unwilling to make changes in your self that may be CONTRIBUTING to the issue?You admitted your self that you had insecurity issues that could have even helped create or made the issue worse.FACT insecure mates are unnatractive.Confidence(not arrogance) is an aphrodisiac but even in general attracts people to you not even just sexually.And how is it a "game" that you would improve on your self things you need to do anyway for your self?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

My point is that I other than being older and maybe a few lbs heavier than I was 15 years ago, I have been no different. So if she lost her attraction to me, so be it. I had the same insecurities 15 years ago. Some probably even worse.

I see the fixing me part as a separate issue. Something I need to do for myself, not for her. AND, while I have my flaws too, I am a good husband and father so it isn't like she is not also getting good parts from me. Up until recently I hadn't lost my attraction to her just because we had kids or she is a control freak..

Maybe I am just stupid but last time I checked there were two of us in this marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

F8,
If you like, I will try to summarize:
- your situation for the last two years 
- what it is you NEED from your wife and 
- ideally what you additionally WANT from her if she is able to provide it

As it is your story, I will only do this if you think that might help. 

MEM 





frustr8dhubby said:


> My point is that I other than being older and maybe a few lbs heavier than I was 15 years ago, I have been no different. So if she lost her attraction to me, so be it. I had the same insecurities 15 years ago. Some probably even worse.
> 
> I see the fixing me part as a separate issue. Something I need to do for myself, not for her. AND, while I have my flaws too, I am a good husband and father so it isn't like she is not also getting good parts from me. Up until recently I hadn't lost my attraction to her just because we had kids or she is a control freak..
> 
> Maybe I am just stupid but last time I checked there were two of us in this marriage.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I already know you think I am a "nice guy" (and in fairness I probably do have some/many of those tendencies) but shoot, I could certainly use any direction.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> The only problem is I'm sure if he could he would "demand" passion.But that's just it you cant demand what is not there.So all she has to give is the physical part.Passion is a FEELING an emotion that you "detect" when its expressed and demonstrated in attitude and how a person acts about something.If you don't have it or feel it you cant express it.You can "fake it" but then that is just as hurtful because the point would still be they do not have really have desire and PASSION for you and besides its hard to fake over the long term + then you are living a lie.It like expecting someone to burst out crying in tears and sob from sadness..When they aren't sad at all..and on demand.Most can not do it.


If the OP's wife really believed that he would no longer accept a passionless sex life, then she would be motivated to fix the problem. And the fix would probably require effort from both of them. As it is now, she has no motivation.

I understand that the OP can't simply command his wife to feel lust and have that alone solve his problem. But his expectation of lust from his wife, along with a commitment to get it, or else, can help him get what he wants.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Maybe I am just stupid but last time I checked there were two of us in this marriage.


But only one of you is trying to fix a very real problem, FH. This dynamic has to change, otherwise things will remain the same.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

That happens..

I don't care if I have sex either with my wife... you do get to that point and that is part of the overall issue.

Difference for me though.. I have not given up hope and realize its partly me and not all on her.

How can we have sex when I don't try 99% of the time?

There will be times I try again ant we'll have sex... just waiting for the right opportunity. You learn to pick your spots. this is not all your spouses issue...its you also.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> My point is that I other than being older and maybe a few lbs heavier than I was 15 years ago, I have been no different. So if she lost her attraction to me, so be it. I had the same insecurities 15 years ago. Some probably even worse.
> 
> I see the fixing me part as a separate issue. Something I need to do for myself, not for her. AND, while I have my flaws too, I am a good husband and father so it isn't like she is not also getting good parts from me. Up until recently I hadn't lost my attraction to her just because we had kids or she is a control freak..
> 
> Maybe I am just stupid but last time I checked there were two of us in this marriage.


I think its fairly common that many in the beginning of a relationship are more likely to be "blinded " to your love interest faults.Some of its the newness and the chemical attraction going on full force..Some of it is swept under the rug with "it will get better over time"..Then after the newness wears off and time passes its an in your face completely unattractive feature about a person that completely turns you off.And you said this has been going on for 8 years worse the last 2.

Anyway if you don't believe the fact you are insecure is a turn off to her then that's fine.Maybe it doesn't bother her a bit.And if you are only interested in fixing your self for you not for her then maybe you shouldn't critisize her for not wanting to fix herself for you either.That sounds like a double standard or you digging your heels in the sand saying she needs to fix her self before you do anything different.But that's sort of shooting your self in your own foot when fixing your self for you now could make you attractive to her.

What you're saying is I refuse to be a better man for her only for myself but not NOW even though it might have the side affect of igniting desire in her for me which is what I'm complaining about..I'de rather divorce her for having no desire for me and go be a better man for myself by myself.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> No offense, I appreciate the input, but I really have no interest in playing games to KEEP her.


You misunderstand the point of MMSL, NMMNG, and the other books. They are plans of action. It's not about playing a game. I'm assuming you married a reasonably intelligent woman. You can't trick a reasonably intelligent woman into lusting after you over a long term period.

So, when you read testimonials from men who claim that MMSL saved their marriage, it's not because Athol told them to stand contrapposto at the next party. It's because the men have followed the MAP and improved themselves to the point that their wives became more attracted to them.



> She certainly isn't doing anything to KEEP me!


Wrong. She is doing what you require. She's had you on this leash for 8 years. Why wouldn't she think that you're OK with it? Just because you complain, yet never take action? Maybe she thinks that your thing?

Good luck.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

F8 sounds like its time to stick a fork in it.

your done!

not a bad place to be. time to move on without any guilt you fought the good fight and any effort she puts forth now will feel like a forced apology . and in my book if its forced it ani't worth it! 


good luck!


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> That happens..
> 
> *I don't care if I have sex either with my wife... *you do get to that point and that is part of the overall issue.
> 
> ...




Yes you do T2, yes you do, other wise you would not be posting about it....


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I already know you think I am a "nice guy" (and in fairness I probably do have some/many of those tendencies) but shoot, I could certainly use any direction.


Asked and answered. Take action. Either accept the sex life your wife is currently providing, or take concrete steps (beyond complaining) to change it. If you're not willing to do anything, then it's obviously not that important.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> If the OP's wife really believed that he would no longer accept a passionless sex life, then she would be motivated to fix the problem. And the fix would probably require effort from both of them. As it is now, she has no motivation.


There are PLENTY of people that are divorced by their spouse and that does not "motivate them to fix the problem".What I and others I think are suggesting is making some needed changes in himself (which he admits he needs to do anyway) could be a motivator for her to want to work on it .Including this specific issue we are ASSUMING part of the issue is she is NOT attracted to him sexually.And I don't think anyone is suggesting anything like he needs to focus on HER more or concentrate more on her.But actually less and more on himself but in positive confidence building ways.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> There are PLENTY of people that are divorced by their spouse and that does not "motivate them to fix the problem".


Sure. I'm not saying that every marriage can be repaired. Some women don't feel lust and there's nothing that can make them. But the OP doesn't know that. His wife hasn't tried medical appointments, counseling, and faking it 'till she makes it. She's just declared that this is what she's willing to do and, though he regularly complains, he's accepted it. As such, she has no motivation to find out if their sex life can be rejuvenated.



> What I and others I think are suggesting is making some needed changes in himself (which he admits he needs to do anyway) could be a motivator for her to want to work on it .Including this specific issue we are ASSUMING part of the issue is she is NOT attracted to him sexually.And I don't think anyone is suggesting anything like he needs to focus on HER more or concentrate more on her.But actually less and more on himself but in positive confidence building ways.


I agree here too. But part of his self-improvement should be a critical look at his marriage and how he and his wife are meeting, or failing to meet, each other's needs.

Running Athol's MAP actually accomplishes both tasks. First, he loses weight, gains muscle, becomes more assertive and confident, makes more money, and basically becomes all he can be. At that point, he can go to his wife and point out the positive changes he's made and tell her that she must now step up. Fortunately, many women don't even need an ultimatum. They just respond naturally to Phase 1.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

You know I'm thinking about it..BOOKS are written about women needing to "keep herself attractive" to the man and in many ways not just don't get fat.Don't nag..(that's a turn off) don't be too needy and clingly(that's a turn off)..don't be TOO aggressive!(that's a turn off and I mean sexually too)Be confidant (that's a turn on)..spice things up a bit (change it up be adventurous that's a turn on)have other interest besides him don't hang on his every word (thats a turn off)...and on and on all the way to don't gain too much weight (stay in shape) dress up for him don't look like a hag all the time...etc etc etc!

But when a woman loses attraction ?Then its "put yer foot down say I wont live in a sexless marriage I will not change a damn thing about myself I'm entitled to sex no matter what!I will divorce you if you don't AND or find someone else to have sex with!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

There's also the reference to asexuality by the OP. If his W is asexual (and not just LD), he can stand on his head until the cows come home and his W still won't feel lust for him.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Running Athol's MAP actually accomplishes both tasks. First, he loses weight, gains muscle, becomes more assertive and confident, makes more money, and basically becomes all he can be. At that point, he can go to his wife and point out the positive changes he's made and tell her that she must now step up. Fortunately, many women don't even need an ultimatum. They just respond naturally to Phase 1.


I agree there is no need for a "threat" when he stops harping on her about his "needs" and stops threatening and demanding and just starts taking care of himself (and I don't mean MB) in a way its "not about her" too its HIS life and he is going to live it with or without her and she will NOTICE!If she doesn't or she doesn't care then she was done anyway but hes in shape and hes confidant including at that point I think somewhat "detached".

That is how we should be ANYWAY!!!Male and female.But "attached" as a couple sharing their lives.We are not ONE person .I would be BORED if I was my husband.

I don't know if there is anything less attractive than a needy clingly whining insecure person that pines for your attention and or throws temper tantrums to get it if they don't.. and I don't mean just a spouse.But if it is a spouse that is NOT "hot".It repels you .We even put little children in the corner (time out) if they throw a tantrum to get what they want.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> I think its fairly common that many in the beginning of a relationship are more likely to be "blinded " to your love interest faults.Some of its the newness and the chemical attraction going on full force..Some of it is swept under the rug with "it will get better over time"..Then after the newness wears off and time passes its an in your face completely unattractive feature about a person that completely turns you off.And you said this has been going on for 8 years worse the last 2.
> 
> Anyway if you don't believe the fact you are insecure is a turn off to her then that's fine.Maybe it doesn't bother her a bit.And if you are only interested in fixing your self for you not for her then maybe you shouldn't critisize her for not wanting to fix herself for you either.That sounds like a double standard or you digging your heels in the sand saying she needs to fix her self before you do anything different.But that's sort of shooting your self in your own foot when fixing your self for you now could make you attractive to her.
> 
> What you're saying is I refuse to be a better man for her only for myself but not NOW even though it might have the side affect of igniting desire in her for me which is what I'm complaining about..I'de rather divorce her for having no desire for me and go be a better man for myself by myself.


I never said that my insecurities aren't a turn off for her. I don't KNOW because she claims everything is wonderful. So if it is all so f'ing wonderful why do you have no interest in me?

I am not expecting her to change, nor have I directly asked her to change. I have finally reached a point where I cannot live this way anymore, which is why I say I need to work on myself for myself. If that raises her attraction to me, so be it, but it might just be too late.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> But only one of you is trying to fix a very real problem, FH. This dynamic has to change, otherwise things will remain the same.


Agreed but the problem is that she doesn't see it as a problem so what is there to "fix"?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> That happens..
> 
> I don't care if I have sex either with my wife... you do get to that point and that is part of the overall issue.
> 
> ...


I have yet to say that it is all her. But again, you are putting all of the onus on me. Why do I always have to be the one to "ask" for sex? (Which alone I personally find repulsive).


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> There's also the reference to asexuality by the OP. If his W is asexual (and not just LD), he can stand on his head until the cows come home and his W still won't feel lust for him.


I agree but where is the evidence she is "asexual"Unless she was faking it for years sounds like she is not an asexual.I dont think people switch back and forth from sexual to "a-sexual".Of course she could have a hormone issue that is causing it including hormonal BC..That stuff can make you numb from the waste down.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Agreed but the problem is that she doesn't see it as a problem so what is there to "fix"?


You.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> You know I'm thinking about it..BOOKS are written about women needing to "keep herself attractive" to the man and in many ways not just don't get fat.Don't nag..(that's a turn off) don't be too needy and clingly(that's a turn off)..don't be TOO aggressive!(that's a turn off and I mean sexually too)Be confidant (that's a turn on)..spice things up a bit (change it up be adventurous that's a turn on)have other interest besides him don't hang on his every word (thats a turn off)...and on and on all the way to don't gain too much weight (stay in shape) dress up for him don't look like a hag all the time...etc etc etc!
> 
> But when a woman loses attraction ?Then its "put yer foot down say I wont live in a sexless marriage I will not change a damn thing about myself I'm entitled to sex no matter what!I will divorce you if you don't AND or find someone else to have sex with!


None of which I have ever asked for. I was (am?) attracted to her for who she is and a few years and a couple of pounds didn't change that for me. Now I have to change to make her interested in me? Who has the double standard?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> No offense, I appreciate the input, but I really have no interest in playing games to KEEP her. She certainly isn't doing anything to KEEP me!


 The reason I highlighted the word keep is that your marriage changes over the years. The first few years, the PEA chemicals are running strong and you overlook each other's flaws, because you are busy meeting each other's needs. Once the chemicals die out in your brain, you are left with a relationship...or not. But now you each have a few years of baggage, a few years of disappointments, a few years of expecting the other person to meet YOUR needs, but you don't feel like meeting THEIR needs because YOURS aren't getting met. One of you needs to educate yourself on this stuff so you can make a change. 

Her lack of desire is a DIRECT RESULT of your attitude, that SHE should be the one working to keep you. It's a direct result of you not knowing her top Emotional Needs, nor your Love Busters that hurt her, and not actively working to ensure there's still romance and excitement and dating and attention and fun time...instead, (I assume) you have both settled down into a pattern. And women are different from men. Your urges drive your desire for sex. Hers are not (typically) as strong as yours, so she needs 'more' to get to the desire stage. The books I describe explain why women need more and how you do it.

You can sit back on your heels all you want and say it's HER job now, and you will continue to get what you're getting now - ignored.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Agreed but the problem is that she doesn't see it as a problem so what is there to "fix"?


 Her desire for you. Which comes when you change YOU.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> You.


Why if everything is great?  So now we are back to changing for ME because I am the one that is unhappy. We have now removed her from the equation. Maybe if I put in all of the effort I will just go for someone more attractive or more sexually adventurous?  (Yes, I am being snarky.)


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have yet to say that it is all her. But again, you are putting all of the onus on me. Why do I always have to be the one to "ask" for sex? (Which alone I personally find repulsive).


The onus is on you because you can NOT change her.Not only that you admit you need to improve so if YOU really cared why would you be so adamant not to?If you don't care enough about yourself to take care of your self why would you expect anyone else too?

And no you don't have to necessarily say the words "can I have sex" but yeah the golden rule and the criminal law rule is you need consent.So initiating sex with someone is a "question" to which they can say yes or no to.Its up to them not you .

And you don't have to ask for sex either..but if you do don't get angry at the other person because they didn't ask for it.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

turnera said:


> Her lack of desire is a DIRECT RESULT of your attitude, that SHE should be the one working to keep you. It's a direct result of you not knowing her top Emotional Needs, nor your Love Busters that hurt her, and not actively working to ensure there's still romance and excitement and dating and attention and fun time...instead, (I assume) you have both settled down into a pattern. And women are different from men. Your urges drive your desire for sex. Hers are not (typically) as strong as yours, so she needs 'more' to get to the desire stage. The books I describe explain why women need more and how you do it.


How do you KNOW that? I don't! I know her needs, she is an "acts of service" love language. She claims that I meet or exceed all of her needs so you are making assumptions possibly based on yourself as a woman. So YES, the onus is on HER to some degree. She either needs to step up to the plate and be honest about what I am not meeting (if that is the case) OR work with me to figure out why she has no desire for me.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Her lack of desire is a DIRECT RESULT of your attitude, that SHE should be the one working to keep you.


:iagree:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Uh huh. You can keep on taking that attitude and keep on getting nothing. Your choice.

You can't MAKE her want to do anything. What you CAN do is be so attractive - like you did when you were dating and pursuing her - that she is interested in you and realizes there's more to this than just raising kids.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> She claims that I meet or exceed all of her needs so you are making assumptions possibly based on yourself as a woman.


More like based on about 30 books I've read, written by experts on the subject. I now know that marriages are MUCH more complex than just here I'm doing this for you so give me what I want.

If you read even one of those books, you'll see what we are talking about.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

OP, your wife is unhappy too, I would think. Maybe she doesnt' show it, but if you are not the same guy she fell in love with, her attraction for you changed.

She might be okay with the status quo, but she could be "more".

And you are the one that is here, not her. If she was here... she would get the same advice.

Why should you work on yourself? Because that's all you can do. 
And it's your life, darn it. The most valueable thing you own. And the only thing you own. 

What will happen if you work on yourself?
You win. Guaranteed.
If she doesn't woman up to your new self.. then you are prime pickings for someone who is receptive.

If you don't work on yourself, and go find someone who is attracted to you as you are today, that's all you are going to get. 
One bar lower than when you got married in the first place. Or maybe two or three....

Why are you settling? Why should she?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> None of which I have ever asked for. I was (am?) attracted to her for who she is and a few years and a couple of pounds didn't change that for me. Now I have to change to make her interested in me? Who has the double standard?


Its not a double standard IF you had lost your attraction to her and she was the one complaining then it would be up to her to try and make changes to remedy that.You have to remember..she ISN"T YOU ..so it doesn't matter that what didn't change your feelings .

Thats like someone saying "I'm upset about this " and the response is "well you shouldnt be upset because that wouldn't upset me!One doesnt have to do anything with the other.What she did or didnt do that doesnt change your desire for her has NOTHING to do with what you did or didn't do that DID change her desire for you .


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> The onus is on you because you can NOT change her.Not only that you admit you need to improve so if YOU really cared why would you be so adamant not to?If you don't care enough about yourself to take care of your self why would you expect anyone else too?


When have I said I am adamant not to change? That's part of the reason I have been here, read things (and BTW, I did just read NMMG). I KNOW that I need to change and I am trying to get there. It has been far too long, no question.



dallasapple said:


> And no you don't have to necessarily say the words "can I have sex" but yeah the golden rule and the criminal law rule is you need consent.So initiating sex with someone is a "question" to which they can say yes or no to.Its up to them not you.


And I used to initiate 100% of the time and got rejected 95+% of the time and now I am tired of it.



dallasapple said:


> And you don't have to ask for sex either..but if you do don't get angry at the other person because they didn't ask for it.


What?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> You know I'm thinking about it..BOOKS are written about women needing to "keep herself attractive" to the man ...
> 
> But when a woman loses attraction ?Then its "put yer foot down say I wont live in a sexless marriage I will not change a damn thing about myself I'm entitled to sex no matter what!I will divorce you if you don't AND or find someone else to have sex with!


You've got it wrong. All of the books that have been recommended on this thread have change for the husband as their primary recommendation. Now, part of the change is to be a man who requires his marriage to be sexual. But that shouldn't be a controversial requirement. Hell, the Pope will annul a marriage that isn't sexual.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have yet to say that it is all her. But again, you are putting all of the onus on me. Why do I always have to be the one to "ask" for sex? (Which alone I personally find repulsive).


Trying2figureitout has a unique perspective. He has been in a sexless marriage for years. His wife is almost certainly having a physical affair. And his defense mechanism is to blame himself.

So, his advice will be colored by that experience.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> When have I said I am adamant not to change? That's part of the reason I have been here, read things (and BTW, I did just read NMMG). I KNOW that I need to change and I am trying to get there. It has been far too long, no question.


You said you should not have to do anything to "keep her" and in general your attitude is why should you "have to " this or that.Why is the "onus on you " and on and on ..YOU are resisitant to hearing that MAYBE you have something to do with her lack of desire for you ..Including saying things like she accepted you before and you haven't changed all that much yada yada..

Its clear you would rather call her "asexual" and just get a divorce.So why not just do that?That way you can blame her and you your self can walk away blameless and say what a good husband you were she just "morphed" into and asexual one day.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you read MMSLP, you will learn to up your 'score' so that she WANTS to have sex with you, and you will likely no longer have to ask for it.

Of course, this also all depends on whether you are completely honest with her.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

OP, my advice to you would be to consider that your wife may never be sexual in the way that you need again.

You may have to start to get used to the idea that you're going to eventually enter the dating pool again, going through the ritual of being on your A-game at all times to attract another mate. Doing the little things, building attraction, etc.

My advice would be to start practicing on your wife for a while. I mean, you are there anyway and probably, like everyone in a long relationship, out of practice.

Worst case scenario, you get some practice and will be better when your next date comes along. Best case scenario would be what everyone is saying here - she notices your changes and makes some of her own so that she doesn't have to lose you to the dating pool.

Good luck.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

turnera said:


> Of course, this also all depends on whether you are completely honest with her.


Meaning what exactly?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't get that, 'it's not a problem for her'. If its a problem for you, it's a problem for her, or should be.

When my husband is unhappy with something I've done or haven't done he is unpleasant to be around and horrible to live with. No way could I just continue on my merry way with him like that.

Maybe you're too nice to her.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You've got it wrong. All of the books that have been recommended on this thread have change for the husband as their primary recommendation. Now, part of the change is to be a man who requires his marriage to be sexual. But that shouldn't be a controversial requirement. Hell, the Pope will annul a marriage that isn't sexual.


Yes I admit its and its a BRAND new trend..Women have been the ones responsible for a LONG time before that to "keep him interested"...And it also shouldn't be a controversial requirement (I'll get it from you and if not someone else) for a woman to threaten her husband with either including the option of "open marriage" where she "gets it" from male prostitutes/ one night stands and or affairs .(as suggested to this man on this thread).And for her to flirt with other men in front of him giving them a rise in their pants so he can see his "compepetion".


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> You said you should not have to do anything to "keep her" and in general your attitude is why should you "have to " this or that.Why is the "onus on you " and on and on ..YOU are resisitant to hearing that MAYBE you have something to do with her lack of desire for you ..Including saying things like she accepted you before and you haven't changed all that much yada yada..


That is not what I said, or at least that isn't what I meant. I am already trying to meet her needs, and by her admission doing a decent job of it. But you are saying since I have an issue that may or may not be contributing to the "problem" that I myself must fix it not even knowing exactly what the "problem" is for her???

And I realize that I am probably coming off angry. I have gotten to this point and no I am not happy about it.



dallasapple said:


> Its clear you would rather call her "asexual" and just get a divorce.So why not just do that?That way you can blame her and you your self can walk away blameless and say what a good husband you were she just "morphed" into and asexual one day.


How is that clear? I said it was a possibility, or it could be hormones, or it could be me. Again, she has no responsibility in this marriage of two?? You seem to act like this is some new phenomenon and I just want an excuse to get out and go get some new tail. This has been dragging on for a while. YES, I let it go too long without taking action. I chalked the first few years up to several life changes (small kids, losing my job, moving from California to Pennsylvania, etc). I have tried to talk about it. I have asked her to go to counseling with me. I have asked her to get her hormones checked. Now I am tired of it and you want to make me out to be the bastard. Sorry, I am not buying it anymore. I am FAR from perfect but at least I am trying.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

frustr8dhubby - What would you be doing if you were going to start dating again? If your typical, you would be working on yourself in a variety of ways. Fitness, diet change, new clothes, vacations and hopefully new activities. This is what you need to do now without your wife or her permission. 

It's highly unlikely your wife is asexual as many have pointed out. She's sexually dormant and focused on the kids. This happens to a ton of women. When you talk to her about your marriage she hears "blah blah blah - I want sex again- blah blah blah". She lost respect for you as a sex partner or possibly never had it. Don't fool yourself about this dynamic. You are not sexy to her and you must face it. If you are trying to make it work its time for the Hail Mary since you have nothing to lose. Start acting like you want to attract new women. Don't be disrespectful, cheat or lie. Stop asking for sex and start acting like you are viable option to other women. If it doesn't work out your already prepared for your new life. If if does work out your family stays intact and you get some.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Lyris said:


> I don't get that, 'it's not a problem for her'. If its a problem for you, it's a problem for her, or should be.
> 
> When my husband is unhappy with something I've done or haven't done he is unpleasant to be around and horrible to live with. No way could I just continue on my merry way with him like that.
> 
> Maybe you're too nice to her.


That is possibly true and one of the things I am looking into now. I did read NMMG recently and I do have some of those tendencies.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> frustr8dhubby - What would you be doing if you were going to start dating again? If your typical, you would be working on yourself in a variety of ways. Fitness, diet change, new clothes, vacations and hopefully new activities. This is what you need to do now without your wife or her permission.
> 
> It's highly unlikely your wife is asexual as many have pointed out. She's sexually dormant and focused on the kids. This happens to a ton of women. When you talk to her about your marriage she hears "blah blah blah - I want sex again- blah blah blah". She lost respect for you as a sex partner or possibly never had it. Don't fool yourself about this dynamic. You are not sexy to her and you must face it. If you are trying to make it work its time for the Hail Mary since you have nothing to lose. Start acting like you want to attract new women. Don't be disrespectful, cheat or lie. Stop asking for sex and start acting like you are viable option to other women. If it doesn't work out your already prepared for your new life. If if does work out your family stays intact and you get some.



Yep. And this is what MMSL taught me. 
And it worked for me. 
Of course i wasnt in a sexless marriage but it was certainly duty sex most of the time. 
That book changed all that up an really did convince me that i was responsible for myself and my happiness so make it my priority. If she wants to come along, great. If not, someone else will. My wife chose to come along. 
A whole different dynamic between us now. And i agree that is your problem here, the dynamic has been static for so long its simply habit now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Enginerd said:


> frustr8dhubby - What would you be doing if you were going to start dating again? If your typical, you would be working on yourself in a variety of ways. Fitness, diet change, new clothes, vacations and hopefully new activities. This is what you need to do now without your wife or her permission.


I am probably not typical and would likely do none of those things. (Which might very well be part of my problem, admittedly).



Enginerd said:


> It's highly unlikely your wife is asexual as many have pointed out. She's sexually dormant and focused on the kids. This happens to a ton of women. When you talk to her about your marriage she hears "blah blah blah - I want sex again- blah blah blah". She lost respect for you as a sex partner or possibly never had it. Don't fool yourself about this dynamic. You are not sexy to her and you must face it. If you are trying to make it work its time for the Hail Mary since you have nothing to lose. Start acting like you want to attract new women. Don't be disrespectful, cheat or lie. Stop asking for sex and start acting like you are viable option to other women. If it doesn't work out your already prepared for your new life. If if does work out your family stays intact and you get some.


Asexual is probably too strong. I know I am not sexy to her but she doesn't seem to get worked up about anyone. She doesn't gush over any actors/musicians/etc either. She says she doesn't ever think about sex with me or anyone else (of course she could be lying to me). So upping my "rank" may or may not do ****e for our marriage.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I agree but where is the evidence she is "asexual"Unless she was faking it for years sounds like she is not an asexual.I dont think people switch back and forth from sexual to "a-sexual".Of course she could have a hormone issue that is causing it including hormonal BC..That stuff can make you numb from the waste down.


:iagree:

Some asexuals will have sex, though, in order to have a relationship. Sadly, they can't keep it up for very long, though, because it isn't a natural state of being for them.

Hormonal issues (BC or otherwise) or lack of interest sound more likely to me.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I am probably not typical and would likely do none of those things. (Which might very well be part of my problem, admittedly).
> 
> 
> 
> Asexual is probably too strong. I know I am not sexy to her but she doesn't seem to get worked up about anyone. She doesn't gush over any actors/musicians/etc either. She says she doesn't ever think about sex with me or anyone else (of course she could be lying to me). So upping my "rank" may or may not do ****e for our marriage.



Of course, she would not admit attraction to other men if it endangers her stable life with you. She may not act on it, but it's there. Do you understand that most women need to feel pursued ? (unless your fantasy worthy man candy then the rules change for some reason ). I understand the position that your wife is not making an effort to meet you halfway. I've felt the same. Unfortunately, you have the role of pursuer and leader. You mentioned your not into playing games. I'd say that your out matched by your wife because she's gaming you. Although, she may not see it that way. If you're not willing to work on yourself, be the leader, show some testicles and then pursue her when she comes around I think you have no hope. Sometimes leaders have to employ tactics that they otherwise find distasteful. This is one of those times. Do it to save your family.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEThat is not what I said, or at least that isn't what I meant. I am already trying to meet her needs, and by her admission doing a decent job of it. But you are saying since I have an issue that may or may not be contributing to the "problem" that I myself must fix it not even knowing exactly what the "problem" is for her???][/QUOTE]

yeah..you should improve on your self period.Take care of your self its not about "meeting her needs" other than as a side affect you MAY become more attractive and desirable to her and as OTHERS have pointed out if not you will be in good shape and have more confidence without her.Otherwsie you are saying you have NO interest in taking care of your self unless your WIFE motivates you which in and of itself is UNATRACTIVE!

It doesn't get any more clearer and if you cant stop looking at it as "what you have to do verses what she has to do"then you have missed the point entirelely.The point is not to be LED by what your wife IS or isn't doing!YOu do what is RIGHT you do what is healthy and best for you..

If (or when) for example I work out its for ME!I don't say "I will only work out if my husband first has desire for me or says I have a nice body ".When I buy a new dress I think I LOOK pretty in and feel attractive in I don't say "I will only buy a pretty dress to wear IF my husband already desires me and tells me I'm pretty FIRST"

I'm going to work out and buy myself a pretty dress I feel good in REGARDLESS of what he thinks or doesn't think about me!And feel good about myself. He can AGREE with me and admire me or NOT..

Do you stop learning and enriching your mind if your spouse doesn't tell you that you are intelligent?Do you only brush your teeth if your spouse tells you what nice teeth you have?If you have a bad habit that you know you should stop do you ONLY stop it if your spouse rewards you somehow for it otherwise why bother?

Like I said don't know how to make it any clearer than THAT"S a turn off !


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have yet to say that it is all her. But again, you are putting all of the onus on me. Why do I always have to be the one to "ask" for sex? (Which alone I personally find repulsive).


Because you are the man... and no.... you don't ask you just try.

Its up to the male to be the instigator.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> You mentioned your not into playing games. I'd say that your out matched by your wife because she's gaming you. Although, she may not see it that way.


she may not "see it that way or even realize it because HES the one trotting along behind her WAITING for HER to "do something" to motive HIM to do anything !She probably doesn't even want t PLAY a game because that too is a TURN OFF..Its not a "game" its called BE a whole person be your best WHOLE person and I will want to be around you and share MY whole best person with you !Waiting for her "next move" and then based on that he will decide? Is a TURN OFF!! Sorry I'm yelling..

You're a grown man ..not a child who should mimic or follow the "lead" of your parent.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Trying2figureitout has a unique perspective. He has been in a sexless marriage for years. His wife is almost certainly having a physical affair. And his defense mechanism is to blame himself.
> 
> So, his advice will be colored by that experience.


My wife is not and has not had a PA... In any marriage both are to blame. Reason I blame myself...is I know I self regulate. Perhaps to avoid rejection. This creates less opportunities for her and I to resolve it so yes my actions do increase the likelihood of it taking us longer to resolve it.

So if you want sure its a defense mechanism...its also reality.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have yet to say that it is all her. But again, you are putting all of the onus on me. Why do I always have to be the one to "ask" for sex? (Which alone I personally find repulsive).


I did not put all the onus on you... but you are certainly part of the issue.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Because you are the man... and no.... you don't ask you just try.
> 
> Its up to the male to be the instigator.


All I know is in my house we would have 95% less sex if my husband did not instigate .And we had sex 3 times last week and once this week.I'm thinking about jumping his bones tomorrow(because we are getting all dressed up to go out) if he doesn't beat me to it but that will be my first "instigating" in months.And I probably wont do it again (intstigate) again for months after that.The rule is though I don't have sex unless I WANT TO.So if he instigates and I respond with a bodily yes then its not a question of if I want or not..because I can say NO!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> That is possibly true and one of the things I am looking into now. I did read NMMG recently and I do have some of those tendencies.


 And those tendencies are the #1 way for women to lose interest in their husbands. That's what MMSLP will teach you - how to replace those tendencies with more alpha behavior that IS appealing to your wife.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Some asexuals will have sex, though, in order to have a relationship. Sadly, they can't keep it up for very long, though, because it isn't a natural state of being for them.
> 
> Hormonal issues (BC or otherwise) or lack of interest sound more likely to me.


Right from his timeline he said together 15 years problem started 8 years ago and has gotten worse in the past 2.So sounds like she was "sexual" or faking "sexual" for 7 years....mmmmm...I don't think she could have faked it that good for that long.

The people I know who I think have "asexual" spouses the problems pretty much started on the "honeymoon"..Including a man I met one time that had a wife that had only had sex with him about 10 times in 35 years.Like once on the honeymoon then a few times in the beginning until she got pregnant and they had one daughter after that no more.The woman also never "cheated" no evidence of her "taking care of herself" and never would talk about sex.I still with her think more likely it was a mind warp problem rather than physical.Her mind was warped about sex.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Asexual is probably too strong. I know I am not sexy to her but she doesn't seem to get worked up about anyone. She doesn't gush over any actors/musicians/etc either. She says she doesn't ever think about sex with me or anyone else (of course she could be lying to me). So upping my "rank" may or may not do ****e for our marriage.


I know LOTS of women who like sex who never EVER "gush" over actors /muscians or about even having sex with their husbands(and this is between women too) .And saying she doesn't think about sex with you or anyone else? Of course if she said "yes" then what? 1,000 more questions..No.. ends the conversation She knows its a huge point of contention "the elephant in the room"...She wouldn't say "oh yeah I get horny and think about sex sometimes and fantasize about having sex with Johnny Depp".She probably WANTS you to think she is asexual so you will quit talking about it.

She may not even think about it "a lot" but statistically if she is "healthy" hormone wise especially the "thought crosses her mind" here and there.Especially since it sounds like ya'll had a good sex life for years.She has those memories to draw on too.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

F8,
It is my intent to help. Judge for yourself. 

1. Your wife genuinely likes you
2. You have both had some respect issues with regard to one another. Hers are major, and in my opinion yours are minor. 
- She is very dismissive of the distress she causes you by way of her sexual indifference. 
- As you were somewhat dismissive of her dislike of your unwanted groping.

I am keenly aware that those two things are of very different magnitude. She could have stopped the groping if she really wanted to. You on the other hand had to threaten to destabilize the marriage to get any sexual cooperation. 

3. I am guessing that if you carefully looked at what happens when you two disagree about anything, you would find that the compromise point is at the 90/10 spot on the rope, as opposed to near the 50-50 centerline. 

Your EMOTIONAL NEED:
Is for her to respect your needs - as a man - and as her husband. To come to bed with a loving heart and a genuine desire to please you. You need her to show that she actually cares enough about you - to derive pleasure from making you happy - just as you do when pleasing her - in and out of bed. 

And you also need her to make an effort to actually convey what she likes and dislikes sexually, instead of trying to shut the topic down as fast as possible. 

Your WANT: 
Is for her to feel lust for the way you are 'as is'. Yet you recognize she doesn't directly control that. At some level you realize that were she to prioritize the sexual part of your marriage she would OWN her part of it and:
- exercise regularly as that is a proven libido amplifier
- seek out and make use of materials - books, magazines, movies - that are stimulating - and where possible engage you in that process
- nurture your 'edge' - you have one - it just isn't a big part of you by default. She would playfully, and maybe roughly wrestle with you both verbally and physically and let you know what was hot and what was not in your daily interactions

------
As for Mrs. F8. If she could only say one thing to you perhaps it would be this: Courage is a giant aphrodisiac because it represents the conscious choice to overpower our internal demons: fear, uncertainty and doubt. 
------

As for you F8, I have been reading your contributions on TAM for years. And as the father of a teenage boy who sure seems very similar to you, with total sincerity I will channel 'that' part of me for a moment. 

If I were your father this is what I would tell you: 

I am proud of the man you have turned into. The kind, patient, communicative and loving father. The smart, skillful and rock solid employee. The faithful, generous, reliable and supportive husband. 

We all have insecurities, fears and doubts. And most good men struggle with a harsh paradox: The very traits which create the warm, stable environment our children need, and our wives claim to want, are inherently hostile to passion and desire and are surprisingly also at odds with respect. 

I can hear the despair in your voice. For just a moment - reach inside and grab hold of some courage so you can break the quiet downward spiraling pattern. 

Pick a day this weekend and make it fun and playful and different. For the kids and your wife. Banter with her. Keep it light and don't flirt. Make sure - insist - that you two are able to 'retire' together early enough that she isn't tired. And then without any warmup or warning TELL her what to do. Doesn't need to be NC-17. Could be:

I am going to take a quick shower, when I return you are going to be in bed - wearing either 'this' as you magically produce a negligee - or - nothing but a smile. 

And then you toss the negligee on the bed and walk into the master bath. You don't wait for a response - because You aren't asking a question. You are either making a statement or ideally issuing a command. 

------
Could she reject you? Sure. And flat out rejection from a healthy, rested wife who had just spent a fun day with you would be really painful. 

On the bright side, worst case is that she shoots you down and you act as if nothing happened. She tries to apologize, and you ask 'for what'? Because you don't have to acknowledge an insincere apology. In fact you shouldn't. You can wake up smiling and friendly but cool towards her. 

---------
That said, if she wakes you first thing in the morning and rocks your world - go with the flow and have fun. No talking afterwards about last night. If she brings it up - just take the conversation straight back to the morning and tell her: You should wake me up like that more often. 

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If however, you get the usual flavor of non-apology that night or next day, you break the pattern. The script will either be:
- Are you mad at me? 
The subtext is: I know you are angry and have no interest in actually making an effort to please you, so lets talk about this until I convince you that you aren't angry or worst case have no right to be. Please reassure me that I can safely continue to show total disrespect for your needs as a man, your needs as my husband. 
Or 
- I'm sorry about last night (some version of she wasn't expecting it blah blah blah, or some other excuse)
The subtext is actually the same as above. 

In both cases your response should be rejection by way of incomprehension. A single word reply is best: "what"? 

This is the opposite of the 'normal reaction' which would be some flavor of: I cannot believe you hurt me like that. Don't you realize it has been a month since.....
Subtext: I am angry and hurt that I love you WAY WAY MORE than you love me. 

And then minimize your interaction for a while. You may get less direct apologies like acts of service, compliments, etc. If possible, politely decline them. Worst case say thank you - be polite but not warm. 

This last bit is unlikely to be necessary, but just in case. It is possible that she will adopt a totally oppositional affect. Some version of: the way you approached me last night was completely disrespectful. 

If this happens you might either use: "what"? Or even better to just laugh. Because if anything - you respect your wife too much, and she respects you far too little. So - complaints about the approach - are simply her attempt to play the victim.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

MEM,
That was an absolutely FANTASTIC post. 
Really enjoyed reading it. 
Let me tell you why...
because it described my (prior) marriage very well. The marriage my wife and i are building now, you illustrate starting with the "playful banter" paragraph. 
Absolutely fantastic post. 
And OP, i will tell you that i did, indeed, have to step out of my comfort zone and do some things i didnt think i should "have" to do in order to attract my wife/revive my marriage. 
Im glad i did. 
Just sayin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> F8,
> It is my intent to help. Judge for yourself.
> 
> 1. Your wife genuinely likes you
> ...


:smthumbup:

Just wanted to bump this up..good stuff.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> F8,
> It is my intent to help. Judge for yourself.
> 
> 1. Your wife genuinely likes you


I think so.



MEM11363 said:


> 2. You have both had some respect issues with regard to one another. Hers are major, and in my opinion yours are minor.
> - She is very dismissive of the distress she causes you by way of her sexual indifference.
> - As you were somewhat dismissive of her dislike of your unwanted groping.
> 
> I am keenly aware that those two things are of very different magnitude. She could have stopped the groping if she really wanted to. You on the other hand had to threaten to destabilize the marriage to get any sexual cooperation.


Probably true.



MEM11363 said:


> 3. I am guessing that if you carefully looked at what happens when you two disagree about anything, you would find that the compromise point is at the 90/10 spot on the rope, as opposed to near the 50-50 centerline.


I don't believe it is quite that skewed but your point is valid.



MEM11363 said:


> Your EMOTIONAL NEED:
> Is for her to respect your needs - as a man - and as her husband. To come to bed with a loving heart and a genuine desire to please you. You need her to show that she actually cares enough about you - to derive pleasure from making you happy - just as you do when pleasing her - in and out of bed.
> 
> And you also need her to make an effort to actually convey what she likes and dislikes sexually, instead of trying to shut the topic down as fast as possible.


This first part of this I struggle with a little. I understand what you mean and mostly agree but I am not sure it is enough that she does it to make me happy. I would like for her to genuinely enjoy it too. That may be asking too much on my part, I don't know.



MEM11363 said:


> Your WANT:
> Is for her to feel lust for the way you are 'as is'. Yet you recognize she doesn't directly control that. At some level you realize that were she to prioritize the sexual part of your marriage she would OWN her part of it and:
> - exercise regularly as that is a proven libido amplifier
> - seek out and make use of materials - books, magazines, movies - that are stimulating - and where possible engage you in that process
> - nurture your 'edge' - you have one - it just isn't a big part of you by default. She would playfully, and maybe roughly wrestle with you both verbally and physically and let you know what was hot and what was not in your daily interactions


Great summation overall.



MEM11363 said:


> ------
> As for Mrs. F8. If she could only say one thing to you perhaps it would be this: Courage is a giant aphrodisiac because it represents the conscious choice to overpower our internal demons: fear, uncertainty and doubt.
> ------


This is pretty spot on also. I have more fear now than I can ever recall in my life and I don't understand why. Maybe it is partially because I have kids that rely on me now?



MEM11363 said:


> As for you F8, I have been reading your contributions on TAM for years. And as the father of a teenage boy who sure seems very similar to you, with total sincerity I will channel 'that' part of me for a moment.
> 
> If I were your father this is what I would tell you:
> 
> ...


Wow. At the very least, thanks for taking the time to spell this out. (And thank you for the first part. It is very difficult to accept that what makes me "me" is by it's nature unattractive... :-( ) You are right and as you know this is way out of my comfort zone but that is what I need to start attacking both with her and at work.

My problem right now might be actually having the desire/interest to want to take her. Or maybe I am just making excuses again...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yep.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> Yes I admit its and its a BRAND new trend..Women have been the ones responsible for a LONG time before that to "keep him interested"...


I disagree. Yes, wives who stopped trying to keep themselves and their houses up were disapproved of in the past. However, no more so than a man who shirked his duties as a leader and provider for his family.

Today, we live in a different world. Many of the traits that make men attractive to women, such as leadership and earning power, are now practiced by women on an ever increasing scale. We have a new, ever increasing, category of marriage consisting of alpha wives and beta husbands. And when the husband gets too beta, which used to be discouraged, but is now often encouraged, we have to readjust and cajole men to act more like traditional men.



> And it also shouldn't be a controversial requirement (I'll get it from you and if not someone else) for a woman to threaten her husband with either including the option of "open marriage" where she "gets it" from male prostitutes/ one night stands and or affairs .(as suggested to this man on this thread).


I agree. I think any spouse who withholds sex is asking for trouble.



> And for her to flirt with other men in front of him giving them a rise in their pants so he can see his "compepetion".


This doesn't really work as well for women as it does for men. First, there is a difference between flirting with other people and other people flirting with you. The first implies disloyalty. The second implies attractiveness. We recommend becoming attractive so that other people flirt with you.

Also, the traits that make women sexy are more physical then those for men. Men can tell at a glance whether a woman is sexy. We don't need other men to confirm it for us by preselecting a woman.

For men, traits such as leadership, assertiveness, confidence, and earning power are all unseen. So women rely more on the judgments of other women, who may know more about the man in question, when determining the attractiveness of a man.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Naga,
I am really happy to hear that. This stuff did not come naturally to me either. But it's worth it. 

The banter, the wrestling, is fun. When my W is being.....

Freeze the frame here: is she being difficult or bltchy or is she instead inviting me to play?

Is being playful, I play back. 

Option a (the old me): angrily says - you are being such a controlling - and then I would pause. 

Nice way to talk to your wife eh?

Then I practiced this: (paraphrasing from my cousin Vinny, where joe Pesci is strongly resisting sharing credit for winning)

OMG, you might have to share a little control of the outcome with someone else, what a freakin nightmare this must be for you.

-----
And in the moment after I either hear a deep laugh, or the quietest sound in the world as someone's neck joints bend in unison from tilting their head into a submissive pose. 







naga75 said:


> MEM,
> That was an absolutely FANTASTIC post.
> Really enjoyed reading it.
> Let me tell you why...
> ...


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## Very Sad (Mar 31, 2013)

Mine husband has been staying up until he knows I'm asleep or coming to bed complaining about a list of ailments so I won't expect sex. So it's been a month for us too.


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