# He just told me he's done.



## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I just got the speech from H. In a nutshell he says I don't like him, I don't respect him, and he's not waiting for me to turn it around anymore. Essentially we can live in the house together and be the best parents we can be but he's done waiting for me to come around. 

I supported him unconditionally for a year & a half through his f*ck up, job disaster, finding himself, etc. Now that I've let feelings surface, 5 months is all he can stand by for. He says he's not leaving the marriage, but he's not waiting on me anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

So what did you say to his announcement? I hope you said something along the lines of, "I'm glad you feel that way, I thought I was the only one." These sorts of sh!t tests are almost laughable. You have to see it for what it is MsStacy. It's a chess move. He's completely full of it.

A person that is DONE moves out. This let's play house is just BS to keep the theatrics up without getting called on it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If he's still there, he's not done.

In climbing we like to say: you can agree or disagree....but if you stay tied in, you agree.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I was numb. There's many things I wished I had said. I told him I felt it was unfair that I supported him through everything and now that I'm having a hard time he bails. Basically I cried, which confuses me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

He said he's staying because he doesn't want to lose his girls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Call his bluff. Tell him if he's done then he needs to go. If he stays he needs to keep working on things.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

There are no passengers in the marriage canoe. He either has a paddle in his hands or he gets out. Staying but not staying isn't an option.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Most people in this situation say nothing they'd just stay. The fact that he said it means he's not done. He is desperate for a change or wanted to hurt you but he's not done.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Manipulation. B.S. Nothing more. He's playing the tune and you're dancing to it.

Until you are able to set a boundary, expect more of this nonsense.

And you are still going to the hardware store to buy bread.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't believe he's totally done. He says he still loves me, likes me, desires sex. I truly wish I could say the same. I'm trying to get all those feelings back. In the mean time, he *IS* desperate for a change and I have been unable to provide it. 

I suck at communicating, I know that, and don't know how to change it. I can get angry and let it all out, which I did last week and that has led us to this point. But talking about it....we go round and round the same circles. He always wants these deep relationship talks and right now I'm in a negative place and have too many negative things to say. I truly don't know how to talk with him. I told him I have an appt with our counselor next week. For some reason I am able to open up and speak a little freer in counseling. His only comment was that he doesn't know why I keep running to counseling.
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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal...which boundary should I be working on here? To say I'm spinning right now is a colossal understatement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> I told him I felt it was unfair that I supported him through everything and now that I'm having a hard time he bails.


Of course it's unfair. Life is frequently like that. You chose to support him. He doesn't choose to support you. That is his choice. This is all about what you now chose to do. It's not about equivocating about who is fair or unfair. Seriously.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I know I'm coming across as a totally weak, wreck of a woman right now. I am an independent, confident in myself person, but he has a way of making me feel like everything is my fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

What boundary? The one where he says he's done and you tell him not to let the door hit him in the a$$ when he leaves.

This guy is playing you like a cheap violin. So there's another boundary. Stay and continue ALLOWING him to manipulate you or put a boundary in place.

Frankly, I think you are expending way too much energy on this azzhole, but it's your right to do it. Just be aware of this: get out or get dragged. 

Because this idiot WILL drag you down with him. If you allow it. Your life. Your choice.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

MsStacy, I don't know your whole story, but I understand the mass of emotions. I agree with the others that if he was really done, he never would've said anything (because when I was "done," I sure didn't open my mouth, just went around like a robot). Feeling emotional is perfectly normal. At least you're getting counseling. I've been "done" and trying to work through things now, and every day is a struggle. It seems to lighten up, other days are harder, but it's progress. I hope you and he can work through this if that's what the both of you want.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I told him I have an appt with our counselor next week. For some reason I am able to open up and speak a little freer in counseling. His only comment was that he doesn't know why I keep running to counseling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Has he gone to counseling with you?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

What did you love about him when you first married?

did he change? 

or are you just resentful because he isn't supporting you like you did for him? 


Is he a good person? a good father? dose he have good moral character.

if this is going to work you need to let the resentment go and concentrate on his good qualities.

But you might decide that your done and thats ok also. only you can decide ......


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal...I appreciate your honesty. You're right. I try to post here in fairness to his side of the story (plus a little venting). I'm not easy, my instinct is to shut down and be cold. I feel like I'm trying to work on those aspects of myself but find that I'm shutting down more & more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

MambaZee said:


> MsStacy, I don't know your whole story, but I understand the mass of emotions. I agree with the others that if he was really done, he never would've said anything (because when I was "done," I sure didn't open my mouth, just went around like a robot). Feeling emotional is perfectly normal. At least you're getting counseling. I've been "done" and trying to work through things now, and every day is a struggle. It seems to lighten up, other days are harder, but it's progress. I hope you and he can work through this if that's what the both of you want.


I have been going through like a robot. I'm afraid I'm "done" but I haven't reconciled that yet. I'm sorry, it sounds like we're in the same place and its a sucky place to be.
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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

justonelife said:


> Has he gone to counseling with you?


Yes he has. Couple years on & off. Then he told me he's not the one with the problems that I needed IC. I went...still going. I asked him to do some IC and he promised but that was months ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> I have been going through like a robot. I'm afraid I'm "done" but I haven't reconciled that yet. I'm sorry, it sounds like we're in the same place and its a sucky place to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


H and I are currently working on things together. It's tough.  Honestly, if mine had _ever_ come to me and said something (even if it was "I'm done"), I would've been happy! It was his silence and pretending that everything was okay that nearly wrecked us. I really hope the fact that yours spoke up means he still feels something. It took a big fight (after a long time of us not fighting/arguing because I just didn't care anymore and was tired) to wake us up. We've had more arguments in the past few months than we've had in years, but in our case, I can actually see it's healing. I told my H that there are times we're going to say things that hurt, but that's much better than holding it all in.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

chillymorn said:


> What did you love about him when you first married?
> 
> did he change?
> 
> ...


I loved his relationship with his family (or how it was presented to me at the time). I loved, what I thought, was a man of integrity. I have learned, over 15 years, that he lies and doesn't have the moral character I once thought. I don't know if he changed, or if he quit trying to put up the front. Of course we both have changed in 15 years. And having some of his biggest faults brought out in front of me, our friends & family the last few years, I have gotten myself into a very negative place regarding him. Part of it is the built up resentment, part of it is I'm not willing to rug sweep and make excuses for him anymore. 

He is a great father. If that wasn't the case I would've been gone yesterday. Therein lies my biggest hurdle. Our girls adore him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

MambaZee said:


> H and I are currently working on things together. It's tough.  Honestly, if mine had _ever_ come to me and said something (even if it was "I'm done"), I would've been happy! It was his silence and pretending that everything was okay that nearly wrecked us. I really hope the fact that yours spoke up means he still feels something. It took a big fight (after a long time of us not fighting/arguing because I just didn't care anymore and was tired) to wake us up. We've had more arguments in the past few months than we've had in years, but in our case, I can actually see it's healing. I told my H that there are times we're going to say things that hurt, but that's much better than holding it all in.


I'm a hold it in person. I'm your H in that I get silent and can go throughout the day like there's not this huge elephant in the room. That's one of Hs chief arguments against me.
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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I just got clarification. He's not done with us, or our marriage. He's done walking on eggshells around me, waiting for a kind word or compliment that's not forced, or waiting for me to participate and love him again. If I come to love him again he'll be there. 

I don't understand how I can totally shut down the way I am right now. He talks to me and I have nothing to say back.
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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

That's a good sign, IMO. I'm one of those who believes in sticking it out, unless there's abuse or infidelity. There are going to be rough patches, but if genuine love and affection are there, I think couples should try their hardest to work through them. Trust me, as someone who was emotionally out the door at one point, things CAN change. It's WORK, though, and you have to decide if it's worth putting all the work in. 

I had to ask myself if I had any affection left for my H. The answer was yes. That's why it was so hard for me to look him in the face/eyes at times, because I knew I'd soften, and after being angry for so long, I didn't want to soften right then! I'm still struggling with my feelings sometimes, so it's not easy. When there's been years of wall building, it doesn't come down overnight. 

If there's ANY affectionate feelings left, I believe there's hope.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

MambaZee said:


> That's a good sign, IMO. I'm one of those who believes in sticking it out, unless there's abuse or infidelity. There are going to be rough patches, but if genuine love and affection are there, I think couples should try their hardest to work through them. Trust me, as someone who was emotionally out the door at one point, things CAN change. It's WORK, though, and you have to decide if it's worth putting all the work in.
> 
> I had to ask myself if I had any affection left for my H. The answer was yes. That's why it was so hard for me to look him in the face/eyes at times, because I knew I'd soften, and after being angry for so long, I didn't want to soften right then! I'm still struggling with my feelings sometimes, so it's not easy. When there's been years of wall building, it doesn't come down overnight.
> 
> If there's ANY affectionate feelings left, I believe there's hope.


I was talking with my sister recently and she asked me if the spark is still there for me. It was hard to admit, but no...it hasn't been for a long time. I still love him as a person, as a family member, as the father to my children. Will I get the spark back? I'm trying my damnedest and the jury is still out. It doesn't help to hear that I'm the one with the problems and he'll be done unless I find those feelings again.

I commend you. I always said that cheating & abuse was the only option for divorce too. What happens when the moral character has either changed, or not what it was presented to be? It most definitely is a lot of work. Kudos to you. I hope your H is working just as hard. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy...you've been posting here since 2008. You have lost all respect for your husband. I know it sucks, but why dont you end this? Give you both a chance to move on and be happy.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> I loved his relationship with his family (or how it was presented to me at the time). I loved, what I thought, was a man of integrity. I have learned, over 15 years, that he lies and doesn't have the moral character I once thought. I don't know if he changed, or if he quit trying to put up the front. Of course we both have changed in 15 years. And having some of his biggest faults brought out in front of me, our friends & family the last few years, I have gotten myself into a very negative place regarding him. Part of it is the built up resentment, part of it is I'm not willing to rug sweep and make excuses for him anymore.
> 
> He is a great father. If that wasn't the case I would've been gone yesterday. Therein lies my biggest hurdle. Our girls adore him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Auuuuggghh!! I wish I could shake him! This situation and this guy sounds a lot like me and you sound a lot like my wife. I'm not saying that you don't need to make improvements MsStacy but he needs to WAKE UP and make some changes...I think this guy loves you and his family. Somehow, he needs to get "No More Mr Nice Guy" & The Married Man's Sex Life Primer" in his face and get to reading.
These books were ESSENTIAL in helping me first realize I needed to better myself and then walked me through the process.

Unfortunately, these books won't mean diddly to him until Something shocks him into an epiphany! He needs to be rocked to the core. Once that happens he'll reform himself into someone you will probably respect and love; when he really gets it and understands the concepts, he won't be doing it just for you but for himself and his family, which will probably cause you to love him that much more.

My wife and I had many "deep" conversations that I initiated about our relationship and marriage which only drove her further from me...talking only widened the gap. She would say the same things you're saying now. 

<wife>"we're just going in circles; If we haven't gotten it right after all these years, what's the use in continuing to try?"

<wife> "I think we should just be friends and co-parents"

She never said it to my face, but her every action told me that she did not respect or love me...little to no sex/bad sex... even all that physical evidence and dead-end conversations didn't wake me up. the "nice guy" syndrome was killing my marriage and hindering my life.

I didn't wake up until I read her personal, innermost, unedited feelings in her diary. The things she said destroyed me and caused me to seek help because I realized what I was doing was not working and I wanted to save our marriage. She suspects I've read her diary but she doesn't know. I don't know if I'll ever confess to her that I read it.

After I finally started turning things around in my life, she began to soften and turn back to me. We're doing much better now and still growing.

Counseling didn't work for us either; probably made it worse IMO. I did get some counseling after my epiphany but the real change had already begun inside of me as I meditated on those books and took care of myself throughout the process. I did it all in the spirit of love for my wife, family and myself. We're scheduled to do a Retrouvaille weekend in October. This may be what's needed for the two of you. Don't know...

I'm praying for you and your family.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> I was talking with my sister recently and she asked me if the spark is still there for me. It was hard to admit, but no...it hasn't been for a long time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm very sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you've tried _really_ hard. Sometimes shutting down is the only way to protect ourselves. Sure, abuse and infidelity are dealbreakers for a lot of us, but if you've given your all and it's _still_ not working, maybe some time apart will help. Best of luck on getting through this.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

3Xnocharm said:


> MsStacy...you've been posting here since 2008. You have lost all respect for your husband. I know it sucks, but why dont you end this? Give you both a chance to move on and be happy.


Yes, I believe that was probably the time our marriage started tanking. It hasn't been terrible since then though. I mainly use my phone so I can't go back and look, but there are gaps and years in between my posts where we were doing ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Bagdon...I have read your story and give you many kudos for turning things around. I thought that telling him his negativity is oppressive, I don't trust him, and I am trying to love him again would give him that epiphany. It seems to be doing the opposite. 

This morning he told me again that he's not "done" or giving up on our marriage, but he is not waiting around hoping I will love him again. He says I'm either in love with him or I'm not. I'm wasting our time, letting life pass by, trying to find those feelings for him again. He sees it very cut & dry. I told him his daily comments "you are just a mom, no longer acting as a wife" "you speak down to me like a child" "your passive aggressive ways of communicating is the problem" are knocking me down. I'm trying to find my way back to wanting to be with him...I feel I take a step forward, he finds fault. He said I'm just looking for excuses to justify myself. 

I believe he is trying to better himself. I believe he thinks he is trying to be a better man. I don't believe that until he addresses and works on his two big issues (in my eyes)...his feelings of poor self worth, and that everyone is attacking him/the world is out to slight him...that we're going to make it. I believe if he would acknowledge and if he would work on these two things that we have a good chance. 

Right now he is giving me 3 choices. 1-we divorce, 2-we live as friends & roommates (I believe he thinks 'with benefits') and parent our girls together happily, 3-I am in love with him, want the marriage, and want him. Nowhere in his mind or in his choices is there room to hang tight, give me some room or support or a POSITIVE attitude to court me and fall in love again. He believes it is a conscious decision on my part to dislike him.
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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

legalzoomer2013 said:


> Maybe everything is your fault?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> No, seriously, kick his butt out.


He knows everything...just ask him! He admits to a few very major, marriage altering screw ups (no cheating, moral character stuff), but aside from those it's all my fault because I'm choosing to feel this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

So he refuses counseling and a reconciliation is all on his terms. Is that correct? This is where I suggest you seriously consider setting a boundary. However, if you do, be prepared to maintain it.

Tell him he gets his a$$ into counseling or you walk. With your children. 

Honestly, I generally do not advocate divorce. But when it appears there is an irremediable breakdown in the ability of your spouse to hear you, attempt to get on the same wavelength, or meet some of your fundamental needs, it is probably time to separate. 

I went through this once. I walked. I refused to put myself through the torment any longer of not being valued or respected. JMO.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> Bagdon...I have read your story and give you many kudos for turning things around. I thought that telling him his negativity is oppressive, I don't trust him, and I am trying to love him again would give him that epiphany. It seems to be doing the opposite.
> 
> This morning he told me again that he's not "done" or giving up on our marriage, but he is not waiting around hoping I will love him again. He says I'm either in love with him or I'm not. I'm wasting our time, letting life pass by, trying to find those feelings for him again. He sees it very cut & dry. I told him his daily comments "you are just a mom, no longer acting as a wife" "you speak down to me like a child" "your passive aggressive ways of communicating is the problem" are knocking me down. I'm trying to find my way back to wanting to be with him...I feel I take a step forward, he finds fault. He said I'm just looking for excuses to justify myself.
> 
> ...


These choices that you say he's giving you suggests to me that right now he's doing the only thing he knows, trying to force some kind of resolution...he's desperate and frustrated as hell. <I reacted similarly at one point in my marriage> Hanging on to the marriage like this is a slow torture for you, your husband and your children. 
He's blaming your reactions to him on you. Yeah, he's got faults; we all have faults and he's got to clean up his side of the street. 

I don't know all the variables that make up your family and I can only make suggestions based on my interpretation of what you've shared in this forum. Maybe the only thing that may wake him up is for you to Walk Away. 

I assure you he will be shocked, devastated then angry. He may initially be incredulous, throw up his hands and give up in a pile of self righteous pity. But then, if he's anything like I think he is, he'll start looking for answers. First for his daughters then for himself. We can only hope and pray that he finds the path that leads to love and reconciliation. The kind of love that will compel him to pursue and court you, his wife, not knowing what the outcome may be but living in the satisfaction that he gave everything he had in the quest to restore his family.

I'm praying for your family...really, I'm praying.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

My how intriguing.

There is a manipulator in the grass. But there are conflicting signs. Maybe there are two.

Your statement that he has a way of always making it seem like your fault - okay that is a sign of a manipulative person.

But his statement that he is always walking on eggshells - jeez what a classic statement for a victim of a manipulator.

But then his refusal to go to counseling - manipulators hate counselors because the counselor is an unbiased referee that calls them on their manipulative tactics.

Yet he admits to major faults (plural). 

If you have given up on the marriage, it is natural to come out with passive-aggressive acts and statements. Those resentments always come out, no matter how deep we try to bury them. 

All of this seems like two people that are not very thrilled about trying to overcome.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She herself all but admits that she is withholding her love until he sufficiently courts her, jumping through whatever whoops she has constructed. So now he just refuses to play the game. He's right. She's making the choice to not love him.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Meh, everyone is a manipulator to some degree.

So, OP, what exactly is the problem?

- He isn't D'ing you and taking the kids away from you.
- He's still willing to do for your kids and you say he's a good dad.
- It doesn't sound like you're madly in love with him, so I'm not reading that you're broken-hearted about the situation.
- He's still willing to have sex with you if you have a desire for that.
- It doesn't sound like a volatile living situation, one where you or the kids are in danger by his being there.
- I don't know your sitch but I'm assuming he contributes financially.

I agree that it doesn't sound like an ideal M, but it doesn't sound like that bad of a deal otherwise. As for M, it doesn't sound like you're "feeling it" anyway. You admit that you're not being an ideal W, that you're not even sure you love him, so that sort of takes "happy M" out of play.

In one sentence, what is your complaint? And could you speak for your H and give one sentence representing his complaint?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Wiserforit said:


> But his statement that he is always walking on eggshells - jeez what a classic statement for a victim of a manipulator.
> 
> Yes, he said that in regards to my anger. I tend to explode sometimes when he pushes me too far.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

WorkingOnMe said:


> She herself all but admits that she is withholding her love until he sufficiently courts her, jumping through whatever whoops she has constructed. So now he just refuses to play the game. He's right. She's making the choice to not love him.


No, I knew using the word court was the wrong one. By court I really kinda meant be the man he once was, love me instead of pointing out my daily faults, don't give me the silent treatment for 48 hours then immediately try to get me in bed and get mad when I say no. The only hoops I'm asking him to jump through are his constant, oppressive negativity, and his self esteem issues. I've asked for only those two things and he...to this point...is not doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

bagdon said:


> I'm praying for your family...really, I'm praying.


Thank you Bagdon, I really appreciate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal said:


> So he refuses counseling and a reconciliation is all on his terms. Is that correct? This is where I suggest you seriously consider setting a boundary. However, if you do, be prepared to maintain it.
> 
> I went through this once. I walked. I refused to put myself through the torment any longer of not being valued or respected. JMO.


I value your opinion and experience, thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> Meh, everyone is a manipulator to some degree.
> 
> So, OP, what exactly is the problem?
> 
> ...


I would like to get back to having a happy marriage though. If we were to live as friends & coparents I struggle with what that teaches my daughters. I don't want them to grow up and emulate that in their marriages. I struggle with the examples we are setting for them. 

My chief complaint...I want him to not lie. I want him to work on his issues. 

His chief complaint...I believe he would say (and has said) it is that I am a mom and no longer a wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

In my honest opinion, you're both trying to manipulate each other.

You want him to do x, y and z, so you withhold a, b, and c. I understand that, because I've done that before. Problem is, it doesn't work. We THINK it works, but it doesn't.

It's hard to be a wife when you feel like a mom 24/7. That was my major complaint: I married a man-child and it got to be too much. I was his mother and his sex doll and his roommate and he treated me like sh!t.

He doesn't want you to withhold a, b, and c. So he does d, e, and f. Again, he thinks that by doing these things you will become so uncomfortable you'll give him what he wants. It doesn't work!

When my husband and I were early stages of R, we met at a coffee shop, alone, and set down ground rules. We were in a public setting, we didn't have to worry about kids, etc. I suggest giving that a try. Explain to him - rationally, not from a place of anger - WHY you want x, y, and z. It's completely possible he thinks you're demanding those things just because!

If that doesn't work, I agree with the others - sometimes leaving, even just for a couple of days, can be eye-opening. It's honestly a hail mary sort of move though, because you can't come back from that, and if you do, he has to understand how deadly serious you were about NEVER coming back.

Last caveat: if he says that he will improve and he DOES make improvements, you have to as well. This isn't a one-way street. My husband has been working slowly on being better around the house and helping me more, I'm working on being more intimate with him. I still get upset and we still have arguments, but since I'm holding up my end of the deal he's more willing to help me through the fights (because honestly, I always start them) versus running off and playing video games.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> I just got clarification. He's not done with us, or our marriage. He's done walking on eggshells around me, waiting for a kind word or compliment that's not forced, or waiting for me to participate and love him again. If I come to love him again he'll be there.


I hear words of commitment in there from him. And deciding not to walk on eggshells and not to be dependent on your reaction to him for his self esteem is healthy IMO.

I also see progress in you, MsStacy since your thread a few months back. In your posts here, you seem much more looking at yourself and working on your own side of the street and much less critical of your H and fixing him and his issues. 

Keep going to IC and working on yourself. Progress not perfection!


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## Mo42 (Jul 25, 2013)

MsStacy's husband has been posting in the 'sex in marriage' forum about how his wife does not like, respect or have sex with him and everyone on those threads has been telling him to have it out with her. 

Interesting.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I can get angry and let it all out, which I did last week and that has led us to this point.


Ahhh. So, as long as you play nice and don't 'make him feel bad,' he loves you and wants to make it work, but don't you dare make him look in the mirror.

What utter bullshyte.

Get a lawyer and get the ball rolling. You deserve better than this. Your kids do, too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> He is a great father. If that wasn't the case I would've been gone yesterday. Therein lies my biggest hurdle. Our girls adore him.


But they are learning to lie and have no morals from him. We become what our parents are.

They can adore him without him being there. At least then, they will have one home in which they grow up with the right lessons.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mo42 said:


> MsStacy's husband has been posting in the 'sex in marriage' forum about how his wife does not like, respect or have sex with him and everyone on those threads has been telling him to have it out with her.
> 
> Interesting.


Which one is he?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> So he refuses counseling and a reconciliation is all on his terms. Is that correct? This is where I suggest you seriously consider setting a boundary. However, if you do, be prepared to maintain it.
> 
> Tell him he gets his a$$ into counseling or you walk. With your children.


Agreed.

There are many stories about women who are LoveBusted into no longer desiring their husbands and then the husband blames the wives for it.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Mo42 said:


> MsStacy's husband has been posting in the 'sex in marriage' forum about how his wife does not like, respect or have sex with him and everyone on those threads has been telling him to have it out with her.
> 
> Interesting.


The Mister needs to read Bagdon's thread. Bagdon provides a perfect role model of how this can be turned around.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> In my honest opinion, you're both trying to manipulate each other.
> 
> You want him to do x, y and z, so you withhold a, b, and c. I understand that, because I've done that before. Problem is, it doesn't work. We THINK it works, but it doesn't.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Mo42 said:


> MsStacy's husband has been posting in the 'sex in marriage' forum about how his wife does not like, respect or have sex with him and everyone on those threads has been telling him to have it out with her.
> 
> Interesting.


That's not him. I understand how you could think that. My H is not on this board and doesn't know I'm here. He would never seek help from strangers on an Internet forum.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My HD doesn't lie, but his low self worth and negativity are THE reason I want to leave him. EVERYthing is negative to him, EVERYone has it out for him, everything is ALWAYS someone else's fault, and the few times I've gotten him to MC (under threat of divorce), he's done almost NOTHING to look at himself or really change. It sucks the very life out of me, and I want nothing to do with him, least of all in the bedroom.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Insisting on counseling is pointless. If he doesn't want to go and you corner him into it, then at best he'll just go with a bad attitude just so he can say he did it. He has to see value in it and want to do it or nothing positive will come out of it. Plus, then he'll be able to claim that he did what you wanted him to do and you're still not happy (of course because he didn't apply anything but he won't acknowledge that.)


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

turnera said:


> Ahhh. So, as long as you play nice and don't 'make him feel bad,' he loves you and wants to make it work, but don't you dare make him look in the mirror.


Yes, that seems to be the message I get from him too.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

turnera said:


> But they are learning to lie and have no morals from him. We become what our parents are.
> 
> They can adore him without him being there. At least then, they will have one home in which they grow up with the right lessons.


I'm trying to get us back to a place of a happy marriage. We once had that, and that is the example I want to set for our daughters. If it doesn't work, I want to teach them that you try everything, really put in the work and leave no stone unturned before you throw in the towel. I want US to show them that.

I can't change who their father is, but I can do my damnedest to try to get him to clean up some of his BS so they don't grow up exhibiting his character flaws.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blonde said:


> The Mister needs to read Bagdon's thread. Bagdon provides a perfect role model of how this can be turned around.


I agree!!!:smthumbup:


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

turnera said:


> My HD doesn't lie, but his low self worth and negativity are THE reason I want to leave him. EVERYthing is negative to him, EVERYone has it out for him, everything is ALWAYS someone else's fault, and the few times I've gotten him to MC (under threat of divorce), he's done almost NOTHING to look at himself or really change. It sucks the very life out of me, and I want nothing to do with him, least of all in the bedroom.


THAT is it!! Nail On The Head!! His lies are all tied to his low self worth and all they accomplish is making him look ridiculous and like an ass. Your one paragraph just lifted me. It's incredible to know that I'm not the only one, I'm not the crazy b!tch.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> Insisting on counseling is pointless. If he doesn't want to go and you corner him into it, then at best he'll just go with a bad attitude just so he can say he did it. He has to see value in it and want to do it or nothing positive will come out of it. Plus, then he'll be able to claim that he did what you wanted him to do and you're still not happy (of course because he didn't apply anything but he won't acknowledge that.)


I do realize this. It may sound like it, but I'm not hounding him. He promised me he would go, said he realizes he has these issues, then I didn't say another word about it for two months. I recently brought it up again, and he is now taking it as a condemnation.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

MsS, I don't consider what you're doing "withholding" either.

I see it like this... If your H invites you to go to an event with you, then consistently does something to embarrass you in front of his friends, then you won't enjoy the event. In the future, you will probably decline from going *because it's not an experience that you enjoyed,* not because you're "withholding" your companionship until he does something. Now you might be willing to consider going if your H refrains from the embarrassing behavior, but that's because then you would enjoy the event, not because of a "you'll do it if he does it" mentality.

If you don't enjoy being around your H because he lies/smells/criticizes/embarrasses/whatever, then the reason you choose not to be around him is because you don't enjoy it. I see it as respecting his boundaries and allowing him to be however he chooses and not trying to change him. Now if he _wants_ you to be around him, then he needs to be willing to negotiate some of his issues, to compromise out of a respect for _your_ boundaries. I don't see (in this brief thread) where he's doing that.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Blonde said:


> I hear words of commitment in there from him. And deciding not to walk on eggshells and not to be dependent on your reaction to him for his self esteem is healthy IMO.
> 
> I also see progress in you, MsStacy since your thread a few months back. In your posts here, you seem much more looking at yourself and working on your own side of the street and much less critical of your H and fixing him and his issues.
> 
> Keep going to IC and working on yourself. Progress not perfection!


Thank you so much for this. While being in the middle of all this day after day it can be difficult to see any progress from either of us. It's nice to hear that even in the small portions I post here that someone can see improvement in me. It's not seen at home yet but hopefully it will be.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> MsS, I don't consider what you're doing "withholding" either.
> 
> I see it like this... If your H invites you to go to an event with you, then consistently does something to embarrass you in front of his friends, then you won't enjoy the event. In the future, you will probably decline from going *because it's not an experience that you enjoyed,* not because you're "withholding" your companionship until he does something. Now you might be willing to consider going if your H refrains from the embarrassing behavior, but that's because then you would enjoy the event, not because of a "you'll do it if he does it" mentality.
> 
> If you don't enjoy being around your H because he lies/smells/criticizes/embarrasses/whatever, then the reason you choose not to be around him is because you don't enjoy it. I see it as respecting his boundaries and allowing him to be however he chooses and not trying to change him. Now if he _wants_ you to be around him, then he needs to be willing to negotiate some of his issues, to compromise out of a respect for _your_ boundaries. I don't see (in this brief thread) where he's doing that.


I totally agree with that. I believe that's where we are. I don't enjoy being around his constant negativity and it embarrasses me around friends & family. I read your comment that we are both manipulating, expecting & withholding to mean that I was withholding my affection towards him until he changes was me withholding on purpose, in a manipulative way.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Last night we had a little breakthrough. (At least I hope.)

He started in on me. I was trying not to let his aggressive way of presenting things get to me, to not zone in on his specific words like I usually do, and to hear what he was saying. It started to get heated but I think we both worked very hard in not circling the same path and behaviors that we usually do. It ended well. I think he really got that I do love him. I may not like him a lot right now and I don't have those sunshine & rainbows "in love" feelings for him right now, but I think he finally got that I'm not rejecting him or criticizing his every move. 

He is trying not to speak to me in the aggressive, knock me down so he can feel better about himself manner.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> I read your comment that we are both manipulating, expecting & withholding to mean that I was withholding my affection towards him until he changes was me withholding on purpose, in a manipulative way.


No, not at all, and I don't think mine was the original comment you're referring to.

I do believe everyone manipulates, but it isn't inherently bad. Even saying "please" is a form of manipulation.

I just don't think that's what's going on here. You're at a stalemate. That's why I asked to you define in one sentence what your complaint is (and your H's.) There has to be a first move, even if it's someone first voicing a shared negotiation. At this point, I believe you need to figure out what that first move is.

His lying has to be addressed first. Unfortunately, it requires time for trust to be rebuilt, so even if he stopped lying right now, it wouldn't prove out except with time. Perhaps some of his other issues are more measurable?

As for you being a mom and not a wife, do you have an understanding of his definition? Would it be a good exercise to sit down with him and make a formal list? Perhaps there would be a few minor things you could do that qualify that would show him you're trying.

It sounds to me like you've spent a lot of time figuratively "scratching his back" and I don't think there's anything at all wrong with insisting that he take his turn. The terms "manipulating" and "withholding" are simply negative terms when all I see is negotiating a fare exchange. When someone has burned you in the past, it's wise to be cautious.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

daytoday said:


> no, not at all, and i don't think mine was the original comment you're referring to.
> 
> oh, you're right, it was someone else's post. Trying to reply to everyone and give the same time you all have graciously given me this morning has me getting people mixed up.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> THAT is it!! Nail On The Head!! His lies are all tied to his low self worth and all they accomplish is making him look ridiculous and like an ass. Your one paragraph just lifted me. It's incredible to know that I'm not the only one, I'm not the crazy b!tch.


 Our MC told him at the first session to say 5 positive things a day. Just 5. He couldn't even come up with any. I said, just 3, then. He couldn't.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I do realize this. It may sound like it, but I'm not hounding him. He promised me he would go, said he realizes he has these issues, *then I didn't say another word about it for two months*. I recently brought it up again, and he is now taking it as a condemnation.


 That's your mistake. HE has no problem with himself. The only reason he would consider looking at himself is if he doesn't want to lose the cushy life he has with you. This will be on YOU to keep this conversation in the forefront.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> My HD doesn't lie, but his low self worth and negativity are THE reason I want to leave him. EVERYthing is negative to him, EVERYone has it out for him, everything is ALWAYS someone else's fault, and the few times I've gotten him to MC (under threat of divorce), he's done almost NOTHING to look at himself or really change. It sucks the very life out of me, and I want nothing to do with him, least of all in the bedroom.


This was my H#2. He still hates the world to this day. At least you got yours to even GO to counseling.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, he depends on me utterly. He really really wants to be married to me. It was my fault that I never stood up to him and changed things all these years. So when I finally - after 30 years - got the nerve to tell him you go to MC or I'm leaving, he immediately agreed.

Shoulda done it a long time ago.

Which is why I come here and try to talk people like MsStacy into not ruining her life like I did, to try to get her to stand up for herself.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

turnera said:


> Which is why I come here and try to talk people like MsStacy into not ruining her life like I did, to try to get her to stand up for herself.


We appreciate it Turnera!

I have spent the better part of 15 years not standing up for myself because fighting with him is exhausting. I'm working on my backbone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Pick one little thing that you won't accept any more. Just one. Focus on that and spend the next month enacting a consequence each time he does it. TEACH him that he will get a response he may not like if he does it.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...I'm maybe a bit dubious. It sounds like you're hoping to change your husband's character.
...MC as a way to change people tends to be kind of pointless.
...MC can be a way to help communication. Or to learn better ways to function as a couple. But, it doesn't work if one person is just lecturing the other on how they need to be a different person.
...IC or just determination can work, over years and years, but the truth is that people need to be motivated to change - and that they usually don't change in the same direction that, eg, their wife was hoping.*
...anyways, character tends to be fairly difficult to change. It might be better for you to ask for changes in behavior, instead of changes in character. 
...and, if you want to force him into counseling just to succeed in making him admit that there's something wrong with him...that isn't healthy. That said, if he actually has issues that are adversely affecting life, and counseling is the only way to correct them, you can definitely try. (I'm hearing - low self-esteem and not many other complaints.)

...your husband telling you that he's done with waiting for you to be kind to him...is probably healthy - particularly if you're treating him poorly.

...constant hostility towards your husband...probably isn't healthy. Enough of that, and there will come a time when he will simply have no interest in dealing with you on any level. Still, being honest is usually better than lying.

...I don't know the details of the dishonesty - for rapid change, boundaries usually work. OTOH, it might be simple enough to just warn him that he's making himself look like an idiot. Regarding negativity, 'Please shut up or talk about something else. I can't stand that nonsense.' - and walking off if he doesn't may help. And really, just starting up a schedule of normal marital activities - because if you're working on the marriage - that's on your task list.

--Argyle

*My wife complained that I was passive and pessimistic and that I didn't communicate in ways she understood. After some work, I decreased my passivity. And, fairly immediately, reported her to the police and informed her (in her cell) that I planned on divorce and taking the children. Mind you, her behavior hadn't been particularly civilized. From there, she figured out that she probably was mentally ill and brokered a deal where she went to therapy and I didn't, eg, press charges. Since nearly every change I ended up making involved being less tolerant of her behavior, I'm not sure she was wild about the eventual outcome.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

argyle said:


> ...I'm maybe a bit dubious. It sounds like you're hoping to change your husband's character.
> im not trying to change it, I would like him to change, or at least work on, three aspects. 1-Lying 2-low self worth...feeling happy in himself instead of relying on me for his happiness or approval from others 3-His negativity...the world is not out to get him. People are not plotting against him.
> ...MC as a way to change people tends to be kind of pointless.IC as a way to work on personal issues is what I have asked for.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you have some horrid experiences with your wife. I appreciate your time and input. I feel like I had to defend myself but your comments do give me things to think about and look at personally.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

After reading your last response to argyle I realize your husband Is not that much like me in the way you described his attitude about life. I'm not a negative person. I'm usually very positive about most things; in the past it was to a fault (rose colored glasses) I was very positive but fearful.

I'm more seasoned and worldly about my perception on most things now although still in a positive way. I think your husband needs to read NMMNG and like you said, accept and act on some counseling.

I think you are doing all you can to save your marriage. I'm pulling for you and your family. Now I'm praying more for your husband to recover and rebuild his life and family.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...sorry...my experiences with my wife have left me with a bit of a trigger relating to nonspecific 'be a different' person by going into counseling complaints. Um, when I say 'a bit', gigantic may be more accurate.

...anyways...I've hearing that your husband is constantly negative, judgmental, and critical inside the house. And that he tells obvious lies that have impacted him professionally and are also really aggravating to you - either because he looks like a fool or because he's reminding you how he lost his job. Oh, and he aggravates you by constantly asking for approval. You're also worried about the impact of his behavior on your children - and - given that judgement and criticism is a great way to generate low self-esteem - you're probably right. You sound worried and frustrated.

...and your position is that you're not willing to put up with this BS. And that, absent evidence of change, you will choose divorce? Or not, I'm not clear on that part. Will you simply not be in love with him, or will you plan on leaving?

Dunno. From my perspective, I'm not really one for the bright mysteries of hope, so, optimistically, if you need him to actually change - you're looking at 3-5 years of work (therapy, self-help, blah) and more than a 50% failure rate. OTOH, after 18+ years of marriage, even decent men can be hard to find. And, he's a decent father.

Regarding his behavior inside the family, Boundaries, by Townsend is a lovely book. The thing is, counseling takes a while for crazy people - cause they're usually stuck somewhere - often with their partner's help - sane people can make changes faster. And, changing how you respond to crazy is usually healthy both for you and the crazy. That's probably going to have better return-on-investment than having him lie about himself to his therapist.*

Regarding his professional life, if he was fired, the job market isn't going to be kind. So, I wonder if it may be moot. If not, yah, he'd be well-advised to seek therapy and at least learn not to tell stupid lies that cost him his job.

Um. Although, one crazy, probably wrong, thought...
...see...my wife is mentally ill (diagnosed BPD, some therapists think NPD), but is probably also mildly autistic.

So, some of her minor problems included: low self-esteem. (because she was really bad with people), ridiculous lies (because she felt bad about herself and didn't understand people well enough to know the lies were obvious), and being constantly judgmental. Others included inflexible speech, constantly asking me for input or approval regarding social situations, homicidal rages, distancing herself whenever we had a good day, sensory overload, social awkwardness, self-harm, constant projection of her negative traits onto other people, and zero empathy...

--Argyle
*Um. Consider finding him a therapist and arranging the first meeting. Looking for a therapist can be traumatic for the crazy.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

For me no sex=marriage over.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Quant said:


> For me no sex=marriage over.


I don't believe I ever said there was no sex. 

I have literally turned my husband down maybe a dozen times in our 15 years. 

So I don't know what you are referring to. 
Marriage...to me...is more than sex.


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## Noompsy (Sep 2, 2013)

I didn't read through all of the post but I have a question. What did you do? I am not throwing blame here but I have noticed that a lot of people fail to tel the other side of the story. 

If he said "im done" then he has to be done with something. He has to be fed up with something or just tired of the current situation. I hate to put the ball in your court because maybe he is an ass, but at the same time playing the devils advocate since he is not here to say anything. 

Going out on a limb here and asking....are you perfect? Are you a great wife and companion? I will assume he is not since you made this post but I am curious if you can point out your flaws to give a better picture. After all, he isn't going to see it so if you want the truth from everyone be specific and honest about yourself. 

If you do everything and anything you can I apologize for calling you out....it's just rarely the case.


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