# Men, why are we surprised when we reach our goal of getting wife to cut/cheat/leave?



## mrmagoo

Gentlemen, remember, when you're committing your sins of inattentiveness, your aggressive nature, your lack of nurturing- your man-ness... Stop for a second and realize that you were possibly, maybe subconsciously trying to affect your situation and looking for a better life than you have or had. After all, ones thoughts, words, actions do create a desired reality no? I am just saying, to the next H whos wife comes home... says I don't love you.... then the obligatory discovery of her EA or PA, if she tells you it is all your fault, she may very well be right. You may have reached your limit years ago and checked out........... Lots of men do this and yet at some level they don't think, much less mentally prepare for the day they will be nuked “out of the blue”, as they so often are... Why are we so shocked when the seeds we have sewn bloom? Is a weird thing but yes, men, we have a hand in this and subconsciously or consciously know what we're doing when we're doing it but then express shock and hysteria when the goal is achieved. Just peruse this board for a few minutes.... Stories are all miraculously similar.. We are we so heartbroken when we get what we asked for?


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## papa5280

I can't speak for all men, but I know my goal wasn't to drive her away. The things I did that contributed to that came from a lack of focus and attention. I know that my MO is to move from problem to problem in my life, solving the highest priority ones. That's the way I work, and I know that it's the way I approach my home life.

Because of that, I know that I neglected the nurturing of the relationship, because it wasn't the next crisis on my list. 

Do I wish I had prioritized differently? Absolutely. But that goes against the way I was wired from the time I was little. As Dr. Phil might ask, "How's that workin' for ya?" The answer lies in the tattered remnants of my life, with screwed-up kids and a looming divorce. So, the way I approach things doesn't work. I need to change.

But, that's a far cry from saying that I achieved a goal, conscious or subconscious.


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## Shooboomafoo

I sat and listened to my wife's friends "wish my husband helped out",,, "wish my husband would make dinner"... "wish my husband would play with the kids"...

Evidently here are a lot of morons out there. 
But just as many women that care less about being treated right, and would rather reinvent themselves out of boredom and self centeredness.

Blanket statements such as yours make you sound like a jaded woman...


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## Shooboomafoo

Sorry, I didnt mean to be caustic.
Its just that Ive seen a lot of awesome men/fathers/daddies get their balls cut off even when theyve done right by their wives, marriages, and children. Then they spend a useless amount of time trying to figure out where "they" went wrong, when all it was, was picking a lousy woman to commit to.


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## Lon

Yes, on the other hand why is it all on us? When things get dull, and miserable, why should it fall all to the husband to pick up the bootstraps, and why excuse the W who decides instead of trying a little harder to fix it simply decides to try harder to find a man more like what she wants from her H? instead of helping her H become the kind they both want him to be, she chooses to try trading up leaving the left behind H with that much more to have to cope with? I realize as the man I am emotionally strong and have the wherewithal to deal with whatever life throws at me, perhaps when we challenged our wives to step up and be a better wife/mother/lover we took a wrong approach but the result is the same they just weren't up for the challenge and instead of giving us second chances they gave up, those W of little faith.


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## SadSamIAm

mrmagoo said:


> Gentlemen, remember, when your committing your sins of inattentiveness, your aggressive nature, your lack of nurturing- your man-ness... Stop for a second and realize that you were possibly, maybe subconsciously trying to affect your situation and looking for a better life than you have or had. After all, ones thoughts, words, actions do create a desired reality no? I am just saying, to the next H whos wife comes home... says I don't love you.... then the obligatory discovery of her EA or PA, if she tells you it is all your fault, she may very well be right. You may have reached your limit years ago and checked out........... Lots of men do this and yet at some level they don't think, much less mentally prepare for the day they will be nuked “out of the blue”, as they so often are... Why are we so shocked when the seeds we have sewn bloom? Is a weird thing but yes, men, we have a hand in this and subconsciously or consciously know what we're doing when we're doing it but then express shock and hysteria when the goal is achieved. Just peruse this board for a few minutes.... Stories are all miraculously similar.. We shouldn’t be so heartbroken when we get what we asked for.


You are talking about a world that rarely exists. You are trying to depict a world where the men are complete jerks and their wives are perfect. I don't think this is often the case.

Men can be mean. So can women. It is rarely as one sided as you are trying to make it seem.

There is never a valid reason to cheat. Even in your world! She should leave her marriage if he checked out. She shouldn't cheat.


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## synthetic

What a lame justification for one of the most heart-breaking syndromes in life: The walkaway wife syndrome 

In a sudden walk-away wife situation at least 50% of the blame is on the wife. No one enters a marriage with the intention of hurting their partner. A complex set of disorders and miscommunications often lead to the "walkaway wife" situation. No wife is guiltless in the demise of a marriage. Accepting anything else is just fooling oneself. 

In a cheating walk-away wife situation, 100% of the blame is on the wife. A cheating spouse deserves absolutely nothing. Not even a hearing about what might have led them to cheat. They deserve years and years of guilt, shame and regret. Even then, they may not be granted full forgiveness. Rarely any of them end up better than before anyway, so nature takes care of them well


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## Conrad

Men need to lead.

Your wife reacts to your strength emotionally.

We ignore/forget this fact at our peril.


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## FrankKissel

Can of worms opened.
I don't think it's fair to suggest it's a conscious or even subconscious thing - certainly not always - but I do think there's some truth to what you say.
I think it's more a matter of some guys getting too comfortable and too settled, and thus no longer being the interesting, exciting, attentive (and quite possibly physically attractive) man their women fell for. And let's face it, if you're not willing to be that guy for your wife, odds are some other man will.

OK, yeah, I know all the above is pretty cliche, but there's a lot of truth to it. It's no coincidence that so many of the "I think my wife is cheating" threads around here are started by guys who readily admit they were less than attentive. It's a weird dichotomy how these guys admit they were neglecting their wives and then are shocked - shocked! - when their wives leave.

Lon - to answer your question ..
1. It's not all on you, but only you can control you. If your relationship is dull, stale, unfulfilling, why wait for the other side to make the first move?

2. It's been well shown that when it comes to many things, and relationships in particular, women are reactive much more than proactive. They're going to follow your cue - your leadership, so to speak - more often than initiate.
As for trying hard to trade up, it's more likely a case of responding to someone who's giving her the attention she's not getting at home.

This doesn't excuse cheating, but people are people and when they're not getting their needs met in their primary relationship they'll end it or find someone else to meet those needs. You can accept that and act accordingly or try to live in a land of mae believe where people happily toil away in unfulfilling relationships. Voicing platitudes about how there's no valid reason to cheat - while a true statement - won't prevent cheating.

Last note: None of the above applies to every instance of infidelity of walk away wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shooboomafoo

Conrad said:


> Men need to lead.
> 
> Your wife reacts to your strength emotionally.
> 
> We ignore/forget this fact at our peril.


True in statement, but not often allowed by wife ready to call you controlling and then whiny/needy, whatever the current issue may require of her "at hand" arsenal of linguistics.
How often is the marriage put on the table as negotiable when she doesnt get her way? 
We can be leaders,
We can be emotionally strong, but that dont mean a damn thing to a women infatuated with someone else...


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## Shooboomafoo

FrankKissel said:


> Can of worms opened.
> I don't think it's fair to suggest it's a conscious or even subconscious thing - certainly not always - but I do think there's some truth to what you say.
> I think it's more a matter of some guys getting too comfortable and too settled, and thus no longer being the interesting, exciting, attentive (and quite possibly physically attractive) man their women fell for. And let's face it, if you're not willing to be that guy for your wife, odds are some other man will.
> 
> OK, yeah, I know all the above is pretty cliche, but there's a lot of truth to it. It's no coincidence that so many of the "I think my wife is cheating" threads around here are started by guys who readily admit they were less than attentive. It's a weird dichotomy how these guys admit they were neglecting their wives and then are shocked - shocked! - when their wives leave.
> 
> Lon - to answer your question ..
> 1. It's not all on you, but only you can control you. If your relationship is dull, stale, unfulfilling, why wait for the other side to make the first move?
> 
> 2. It's been well shown that when it comes to many things, and relationships in particular, women are reactive much more than proactive. They're going to follow your cue - your leadership, so to speak - more often than initiate.
> As for trying hard to trade up, it's more likely a case of responding to someone who's giving her the attention she's not getting at home.
> 
> This doesn't excuse cheating, but people are people and when they're not getting their needs met in their primary relationship they'll end it or find someone else to meet those needs. You can accept that and act accordingly or try to live in a land of mae believe where people happily toil away in unfulfilling relationships. Voicing platitudes about how there's no valid reason to cheat - while a true statement - won't prevent cheating.
> 
> Last note: None of the above applies to every instance of infidelity of walk away wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol:


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## Jayb

FrankKissel said:


> Can of worms opened.
> I don't think it's fair to suggest it's a conscious or even subconscious thing - certainly not always - but I do think there's some truth to what you say.
> *I think it's more a matter of some guys getting too comfortable and too settled, and thus no longer being the interesting, exciting, attentive (and quite possibly physically attractive) man their women fell for. And let's face it, if you're not willing to be that guy for your wife, odds are some other man will.*
> OK, yeah, I know all the above is pretty cliche, but there's a lot of truth to it. It's no coincidence that so many of the "I think my wife is cheating" threads around here are started by guys who readily admit they were less than attentive. It's a weird dichotomy how these guys admit they were neglecting their wives and then are shocked - shocked! - when their wives leave.
> 
> Lon - to answer your question ..
> 1. It's not all on you, but only you can control you. If your relationship is dull, stale, unfulfilling, why wait for the other side to make the first move?
> 
> 2. It's been well shown that when it comes to many things, and relationships in particular, women are reactive much more than proactive. They're going to follow your cue - your leadership, so to speak - more often than initiate.
> As for trying hard to trade up, it's more likely a case of responding to someone who's giving her the attention she's not getting at home.
> 
> This doesn't excuse cheating, but people are people and *when they're not getting their needs met in their primary relationship they'll end it or find someone else to meet those needs*. You can accept that and act accordingly or try to live in a land of mae believe where people happily toil away in unfulfilling relationships.
> 
> Last note: None of the above applies to every instance of infidelity of walk away wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Add to that timing. I'm embarking on appreciating the finer things in life, paying attention minute by minute, yet it has been deemed too litlle, too late. Had I appreciated this and worked at it a year, 2, or 3 ago, I guarantee I wouldn't be in this predicament.

I put it on autopilot years ago. Phoned it in. Was I surprised? Yes. Should I have been? No. Am I willing and able to learn, grow and change for the better? Absolutely. My wife is at a different place now. She isn't willing to accept my work, or try, etc. Not for me, herself, or the children.


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## Shooboomafoo

Jayb said:


> Add to that timing. I'm embarking on appreciating the finer things in life, paying attention minute by minute, yet it has been deemed too litlle, too late. Had I appreciated this and worked at it a year, 2, or 3 ago, I guarantee I wouldn't be in this predicament.
> 
> I put it on autopilot years ago. Phoned it in. Was I surprised? Yes. Should I have been? No. Am I willing and able to learn, grow and change for the better? Absolutely. My wife is at a different place now. She isn't willing to accept my work, or try, etc. Not for me, herself, or the children.


Theres always the opportunity to recognize the issues and work through them with help, if two people want to.
Most times on this forum though, men find themselves being divorced or having to make that decision because their spouse has already crossed the line, and there is no alternative.
THEN, he spends the next several months figuring its all his fault, and the marriage was completely HIS job to keep and maintain everyone's happiness.

I am so sick of that weak paper thin argument that "if youre not getting it at home, you'll get it somewhere else"

Well sure, if you are a cheating POS that doesnt care about your family or spouse.. Pick a lot of those have you?


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## Shooboomafoo

This whole post pisses me off. Not once does it properly maintain that a spouse should keep from cheating; supported by cliche's about getting their needs met somewhere else....
If youre never told about needs that are being ignored, or better yet, doing the right things, it just so happens that the OM does them too, and its "NEW and Exciting!!".. FCK THAT, Im not spending one second flogging myself for the actions of a cheater. 

IF there was a problem, it was her responsibility to make it known, not mine to be a fking genie...
Justifying cheating because you are unhappy at home, and this broad spectrum statement about "if you dont maintain, your woman will stray" really makes me wonder what kind of expectations a good man should have of a woman.


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## Jayb

Sometimes WAS convince themselves that they did communicate their misery, etc. They convince themselves that they did "try."

I sure as hell don't remember being explicitly told.

That said, what to do when only 1 person in the Marriage wants to work on it, save it, etc. Out of love, vows, children............

Do I take all of the blame? No way. Does she take the blame? Yes. But, that is where it ends. 

So now, I'm left by myself, alone. While she has moved on, WITHOUT any other man.


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## Conrad

Shooboomafoo said:


> True in statement, but not often allowed by wife ready to call you controlling and then whiny/needy, whatever the current issue may require of her "at hand" arsenal of linguistics.
> How often is the marriage put on the table as negotiable when she doesnt get her way?
> We can be leaders,
> We can be emotionally strong, but that dont mean a damn thing to a women infatuated with someone else...


If you are emotionally strong, the potential for her to become infatuated with someone else greatly diminishes.

If you fold the first time she calls you "controlling" when you demonstrate emotional strength? That's not very strong.


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## FrankKissel

Shooboomafoo said:


> This whole post pisses me off. Not once does it properly maintain that a spouse should keep from cheating; supported by cliche's about getting their needs met somewhere else....
> If youre never told about needs that are being ignored, or better yet, doing the right things, it just so happens that the OM does them too, and its "NEW and Exciting!!".. FCK THAT, Im not spending one second flogging myself for the actions of a cheater.
> 
> IF there was a problem, it was her responsibility to make it known, not mine to be a fking genie...
> Justifying cheating because you are unhappy at home, and this broad spectrum statement about "if you dont maintain, your woman will stray" really makes me wonder what kind of expectations a good man should have of a woman.


A spouse should keep from cheating.
There. It's been said.
Now, will making that statement ever prevent someone from cheating? I suspect not.
Cheaters already know cheating is wrong. It's why they go to great lengths to hide and rationalize it. But people - for a variety of reasons - choose to do bad things and make bad decisions. You can either accept this and act accordingly or not. Up to you.

Look, I justify cheating no more than I justify robbery. But I also don't walk down dark alleys on the West side of Chicago alone at 2 a.m. because I know saying "robbery is wrong!" won't help me from being mugged. Robbery is indeed wrong, but I still choose to make an effort to avoid it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shooboomafoo

"If you are emotionally strong, the potential for her to become infatuated with someone else greatly diminishes."
---"greatly diminishes".. hmmm, didnt happen that way in my marriage. She was selfish, spoiled, and conceited and it didnt matter what emotional level I stayed at. This whole world of drama was originated within, cultivated within and in secret, and played out by her very own choices as an adult woman, mother, and spouse. I saw no diminishing, hell, I didnt even see anything wrong going on in secret until she was ready to divorce. I guess she relied on my emotional strength to carry me thru the whole process and survive after.

If you fold the first time she calls you "controlling" when you demonstrate emotional strength? That's not very strong. But also, trying to convince them that having a boundary is healthy and not a means to control her, when they are already dead-set against you and everything you stand for (because they want what they want, i.e. OM) you find yourself at an empasse again. Divorce or deal with it.


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## Shooboomafoo

"This doesn't excuse cheating, but people are people and when they're not getting their needs met in their primary relationship they'll end it or find someone else to meet those needs. ---what about working it out, and speaking up, and working together to get past the issue? I guess that must be fantasy. It sure as hell didnt happen that way for me...





You can accept that and act accordingly or try to live in a land of mae believe where people happily toil away in unfulfilling relationships. 
If acting accordingly means to take upon myself the responsibility to be everything my wife needs, without any clue as to what that is, until after shes cheated and divorced me, then I guess its a lose/lose proposition. The "toiling" and the "longsuffering" is called WORK, and it takes that to get past the normal trials and troubles married people face. You seem all too ready to just expect your wife to cheat if you dont play some inhuman flawless superman..
to me, thats not realistic.





Voicing platitudes about how there's no valid reason to cheat - while a true statement - won't prevent cheating."
---Neither will spending your life ensuring you are every single detail the perfect husband for your wife, all based upon your own insight as to what you think she needs. Your perfect, is not her perfect, so platitude taken, platitude given.


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## Lon

Conrad said:


> Men need to lead.
> 
> Your wife reacts to your strength emotionally.
> 
> *We ignore/forget this fact at our peril.*


Yes, we were brutally reminded of this fact... my question is why should that be at OUR peril (the peril of both the H and the marriage)? A Wife who doesn't understand that they are one half of the partnership is just not marriage material I suppose.

A man can lead, but when his W can't or won't willingly follow, and chooses a course away from the marriage, what the h3ll can he do and not forfeit his role in the marriage at the same time?

If a woman wants a man who leads then she must submit to follow the man she chose, and stick with him, there are no excuses short of abuse... this carries all kinds of sexist connotations, but what is it women want, strong men or betas that will comply with their W's will?

The problem with nice guys who try to make their marriage work and keep their families united by adapting, conceeding and submitting to their W's feelings, is that they've essentially forfeited their leadership. If women want to play the role of leader then they should man up and, stop putting their selfish choices to saftisy personal feelings ahead of their family's needs and get er done without complaining about the H's lack of leadership because then the topic of this thread is turned back on you: you got what you asked for.

Either submit to your man or let him submit to you but stop letting others outside of the marriage convince you of what you have or don't have or what you should and shouldn't be ashamed of. Take some personal responsibility and have some pride in the family you were a part of building.


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## that_girl

It's about respect and setting your own 'rules' for marriage within your marriage.


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## Lon

ps. this is what happened with my marriage, eventually I couldn't maintain the job as leader in our marriage because I wasn't getting the support from the W I needed, nor was I able to hold it together myself. Part of it was me not asking for support the way I needed or in a way that she could understand (I still to this day am trying to understand myself). I also never reached out for support from others (friends, family) felt like I was all alone, and I could sense my W felt that isolation too.

Eventually I broke and forfeited leadership, my life has felt without purpose, drive or passion ever since, and my focus has been trying to get it back. However, in my marriage that role went unfulfilled because she certainly wasn't capable of, nor wanted the job, she just wanted to continue pursuing whatever made her happy. When faced with having to pick up some slack she built resentment to me which concluded in lack of respect and attraction. I had no idea where to turn next and as soon as she sensed that she set her sights elsewhere, she made herself ready to find an OM and by the time she cheated was already checked out of the marriage, her lack of integrity (the same that prevented her from taking on leadership) allowed her to be an adulterer without even being able to acknowledge it, the marriage was so far over (in her mind only)she remains convinced that she didn't even cheat... that is how weak she was/is.

A good marriage requires both a strong leader and strong follower, or else two partners versatile enough to trade off the role when necessary (ie strength of character aka integrity).


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## Shooboomafoo

I digress. I understand that there are men out there without a clue as to how to be a husband, or how to be loving, or how to keep a marriage alive. I picture the beer swilling, "Ive worked all day" excusing, whats for dinner after you get me a beer" kind of guy.
It goes without saying, that would seem undesireable.

So if a man is that way, in his marriage, and she leaves him and he realizes what it was and why, then I think a positive outcome would be changing himself in those areas. I did not mean to dismiss the fact that there are a lot of morons out there...

But I also am seeing very good men, very good fathers, taking upon themselves the burden of what happened in their marriages, unnecessarily. They could have done no more, they could have no shield against the unknown events while the wife was away...
I see these guys tear themselves down after their cheating wife bails on them. 
Then they get confused as to the nature of the alpha male, and its importance, because the compare their own efforts in honorable love towards their wives and families, to that of the alpha male, and its not a timely comparison. 
To me I think there comes a time in a marriage when a husband and wife can relax and not try to be all and do all for one another. But the difference is the allowances we give each other, once we are secure in our marriages and where they stand. 
My wife didnt leave me for a few other men, because I was a beta male. I didnt beg and grovel at her feet with flowers in hand every day of the week. I did a lot more than some lousy asses I know but I cant allow myself to be a worthless couch potato when I have a marriage to attend to, besides, I am a physical kind of guy, I like the interactions.. 
I could sit here all day trying to explain myself as a stand up guy that cared for and loved my wife, and yet somehow now I feel like I have to prove that I wasnt a beta-male around her either. 
I guess I dislike the cut and dry, black and white confinements of those labels for men.


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## Shooboomafoo

Wow.
I see it pretty clearly now.
I became a beta every time I had a "discussion" with the wife, that was one of those that severely effected the marriage one way or another. Every time we hit one of those empasses, the only thing I could possibly do is cave and give up on my insistence.
The bottom line, was that or leave my family of 3. 
Faced with that as the final, bottom line, straw to draw,,, I dont know too many caring men, who could so easily divest themselves of that life especially if it was a long term one, and involved children.
I feel strongly for these people who reach this point in their marriages where something has to give, and it is at the critical level for the marriage, but then their spouse doesnt want to budge or understand whats right and good in a marriage.
Finding out that divorce is the only option, the "Effect" of crossing that boundary, and being willing to walk out of that little kids life because your spouse is a dimwit....
It is why I let my wife pursue the divorce, and not me.


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## OldGirl

mrmagoo said:


> Gentlemen, remember, when your committing your sins of inattentiveness, your aggressive nature, your lack of nurturing- your man-ness... Stop for a second and realize that you were possibly, maybe subconsciously trying to affect your situation and looking for a better life than you have or had. After all, ones thoughts, words, actions do create a desired reality no? I am just saying, to the next H whos wife comes home... says I don't love you.... then the obligatory discovery of her EA or PA, if she tells you it is all your fault, she may very well be right. You may have reached your limit years ago and checked out........... Lots of men do this and yet at some level they don't think, much less mentally prepare for the day they will be nuked “out of the blue”, as they so often are... Why are we so shocked when the seeds we have sewn bloom? Is a weird thing but yes, men, we have a hand in this and subconsciously or consciously know what we're doing when we're doing it but then express shock and hysteria when the goal is achieved. Just peruse this board for a few minutes.... Stories are all miraculously similar.. We shouldn’t be so heartbroken when we get what we asked for.


Mr Magoo

You forgot to add the sarcasm marks. According to the urban dictionary, they look like this *(sarcastic text)*. Cause that was sarcasm, right?


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## mrmagoo

No, not really, it's pretty much dead on as you wade through the same old story again and again of the poor wife that cheated because her husband made her. Again, no sarcasm, what choice did she have? Too funny.
Just tired of women that want men to admit the womans affair is really their fault. I mean, look at the one post going around, "wife has boyfriend and doesn't think it's a big deal?" Don't know how to even entertain such logic. It's as dumb as my wife saying that everything was fine until I yelled and stomped my feet at her.... After I found out about her affair... Great great stuff but tiresome and sickening....


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## Runs like Dog

why do women always want to fix their broken until until they're healthy enough to loathe them?


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## cantmove

Shooboomafoo said:


> This whole post pisses me off. Not once does it properly maintain that a spouse should keep from cheating; supported by cliche's about getting their needs met somewhere else....
> If youre never told about needs that are being ignored, or better yet, doing the right things, it just so happens that the OM does them too, and its "NEW and Exciting!!".. FCK THAT, Im not spending one second flogging myself for the actions of a cheater.
> 
> IF there was a problem, it was her responsibility to make it known, not mine to be a fking genie...
> Justifying cheating because you are unhappy at home, and this broad spectrum statement about "if you dont maintain, your woman will stray" really makes me wonder what kind of expectations a good man should have of a woman.[/QUOTE
> 
> This applies to both sexes. I fully admit to causing many of our problems but while he did complain occasionally he never sat me down and explained that his needs were not being met or that he was so unhappy that things were about to be beyond repare. Instead he decided I was a bit*h who didn't have enough sex and he deserved or was entitled to get his needs met somewhere else. And after 8 years of an lta he still says he can't let go of *HIS* resentments of my mistakes. Ironic because he told me the other day that if he were to decide to give us another chance and let the ow go he would want me to forgive and let resentment go over his affair and not throw it in his face forever. I did point out he was asking me to do something for him that he was refusing to do for me!! A$$hole


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## mrmagoo

cantmove said:


> Shooboomafoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This applies to both sexes. I fully admit to causing many of our problems but while he did complain occasionally he never sat me down and explained that his needs were not being met or that he was so unhappy that things were about to be beyond repare. Instead he decided I was a bit*h who didn't have enough sex and he deserved or was entitled to get his needs met somewhere else. And after 8 years of an lta he still says he can't let go of *HIS* resentments of my mistakes. Ironic because he told me the other day that if he were to decide to give us another chance and let the ow go he would want me to forgive and let resentment go over his affair and not throw it in his face forever. I did point out he was asking me to do something for him that he was refusing to do for me!! A$$hole
> 
> 
> 
> Man or woman, you're right! I cannot agree more with what you wrote here!!!! Well well put, thank you thank you thank you! It's always the main offender thats "so hurt and can't get past" whatever silly excuse to cheat they have cultivated. To those who say ignoring a spouse in WHATEVER way is equivalent or justification for cheating, well, the 2 sides shall never meet......
Click to expand...


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## SRN

Lon said:


> ps. this is what happened with my marriage, eventually I couldn't maintain the job as leader in our marriage because I wasn't getting the support from the W I needed, nor was I able to hold it together myself. Part of it was me not asking for support the way I needed or in a way that she could understand (I still to this day am trying to understand myself). I also never reached out for support from others (friends, family) felt like I was all alone, and I could sense my W felt that isolation too.
> 
> Eventually I broke and forfeited leadership, my life has felt without purpose, drive or passion ever since, and my focus has been trying to get it back. However, in my marriage that role went unfulfilled because she certainly wasn't capable of, nor wanted the job, she just wanted to continue pursuing whatever made her happy. When faced with having to pick up some slack she built resentment to me which concluded in lack of respect and attraction. I had no idea where to turn next and as soon as she sensed that she set her sights elsewhere, she made herself ready to find an OM and by the time she cheated was already checked out of the marriage, her lack of integrity (the same that prevented her from taking on leadership) allowed her to be an adulterer without even being able to acknowledge it, the marriage was so far over (in her mind only)she remains convinced that she didn't even cheat... that is how weak she was/is.
> 
> A good marriage requires both a strong leader and strong follower, or else two partners versatile enough to trade off the role when necessary (ie strength of character aka integrity).


Wow! This sounds _exactly_ like my deal. Had a huge blow to my confidence a few years back, and thus fell from the leadership position, she was never a strong personality so she couldn't take over and by the time my confidence was starting to rebuild in the past six months or so, she was already gone emotionally.
Everything else is almost verbatim. Glad to know someone else out there has the same sh!t going on.


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## SRN

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I may be rehashing things, but the OP irritates me because under *NO* cricumstances is it OK to run into the arms of another man. No amount of neglect or distance justifies that. _Ever_.


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## diwali123

Sorry I don't have the time to read this whole thread. I find that in relationships and marriage in general when are unhappy they do things to push their spouse away, kind of trying to force her to be the one to break it off. I don't know that I fit the mold of the walk away wife with my ex because I never went into the secret silent mode. The entire time I let him know I wasn't happy and tried to do everything I could to make it work. 
I did have a one sided EA with a make friend of mine but it was more of a crush. I knew that if I could work it out with my ex I would have. 
What I don't understand is why so many men seem utterly miserable in their marriages and want their wife to feel miserable too...won't work on fixing anything but when the wife wants to end it, he acts so hurt and abandoned. 
I could go on and on but I think I know what the OP is saying. I felt like my ex took every part of our relationship and trashed it bit by bit, until he pushed me so far away all I needed him for was money. And as I told him: we didn't have to be married for me to get money. Sounds cruel but he was extremely emotionally cruel to me. 
I still don't know why he didn't want a divorce if he hated me so much. I think men know they have to pay child support so they would rather suffer and keep their money? Idk. 

What I don't get are these women with perfectly nice husbands who feel like something is missing in their life and decide the answer is a divorce. I actually know a couple of women like that and it's really hard not to judge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jayb

diwali123 said:


> Sorry I don't have the time to read this whole thread. I find that in relationships and marriage in general when are unhappy they do things to push their spouse away, kind of trying to force her to be the one to break it off. I don't know that I fit the mold of the walk away wife with my ex because I never went into the secret silent mode. The entire time I let him know I wasn't happy and tried to do everything I could to make it work.
> I did have a one sided EA with a make friend of mine but it was more of a crush. I knew that if I could work it out with my ex I would have.
> What I don't understand is why so many men seem utterly miserable in their marriages and want their wife to feel miserable too...won't work on fixing anything but when the wife wants to end it, he acts so hurt and abandoned.
> I could go on and on but I think I know what the OP is saying. I felt like my ex took every part of our relationship and trashed it bit by bit, until he pushed me so far away all I needed him for was money. And as I told him: we didn't have to be married for me to get money. Sounds cruel but he was extremely emotionally cruel to me.
> I still don't know why he didn't want a divorce if he hated me so much. I think men know they have to pay child support so they would rather suffer and keep their money? Idk.
> 
> *What I don't get are these women with perfectly nice husbands who feel like something is missing in their life and decide the answer is a divorce. I actually know a couple of women like that and it's really hard not to judge.*_Posted via Mobile Device_



I am sorry it took something like this to wake me up and realize I haven't been the ideal husband and have neglected my wife's needs/wants/desires. That said, I am determined to change me and be the man my wife can desire and admire, while being the best me I can be.

Oops. My wife is determined there is no hope. She loves me as a friend, but lost that "in-love" feeling and can't get it back. Or won't work to get it back. Because, the past was so painful. Her guilt too strong. And, while I am a wonderful father, a wonderful man, she believes and tries to convince me I deserve someone better than her. 

It hurts so much. I will do whatever it takes to save our marriage, our family, only to be rejected out of hurt, pain, fear. And, while I understand and apologize for my part in that, I cannot change the past. Only accept it and focus on the present.

Yet, my wife isn't at that place. She is content being with no one at this time.

So frustrating.


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## Lon

diwali123 said:


> What I don't understand is why so many men seem utterly miserable in their marriages and want their wife to feel miserable too...won't work on fixing anything but when the wife wants to end it, he acts so hurt and abandoned.


I think for a lot of nice guys there is covert contracts at work, feeling like the W is neglecting something in the marriage, but the H is either afraid to tell them for fear of conflict or being the bad guy, or maybe can't even pinpoint what it is that's missing, or else by witholding something and expecting the W to pick up some slack and then somehow positively reinfocing the W's behavior by reinstating the thing he was holding back. For me in my marriage I think this element was happening a little, it wasn't with malice or intent to be cruel or cause hurt or lose the marriage, its cause it was the only way I'd learned how to cope with making a relationship work.

When my W ended it I genuinely was hurt and abandoned and shocked... part of it from her affairs but largely because of the realization that my actions did cause her (and therefore both of us) to be unfulfilled in the marriage, it enabled her to cheat but I certainly won't take any credit for that it is all on her.


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## SRN

Lon said:


> I think for a lot of nice guys there is covert contracts at work, feeling like the W is neglecting something in the marriage, but the H is either afraid to tell them for fear of conflict or being the bad guy, or maybe can't even pinpoint what it is that's missing, or else by witholding something and expecting the W to pick up some slack and then somehow positively reinfocing the W's behavior by reinstating the thing he was holding back. For me in my marriage I think this element was happening a little, it wasn't with malice or intent to be cruel or cause hurt or lose the marriage, its cause it was the only way I'd learned how to cope with making a relationship work.
> 
> When my W ended it I genuinely was hurt and abandoned and shocked... part of it from her affairs but largely because of the realization that my actions did cause her (and therefore both of us) to be unfulfilled in the marriage, it enabled her to cheat but I certainly won't take any credit for that it is all on her.


Dude. Are you me? Did I start typing this when I went into a daze a few minutes ago?


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## Lon

SRN said:


> Dude. Are you me? Did I start typing this when I went into a daze a few minutes ago?


Cause you and I were probably built from the same niceguy blueprint.


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## SRN

And they wonder where all the good men have gone...


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## Lon

SRN said:


> And they wonder where all the good men have gone...


yeah we're like a pocketful of GD dreams just waiting for them to reach in 'n grab us  haha


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## angelpixie

Shooboomafoo said:


> True in statement, but not often allowed by wife ready to call you controlling and then whiny/needy, whatever the current issue may require of her "at hand" arsenal of linguistics.
> How often is the marriage put on the table as negotiable when she doesnt get her way?
> We can be leaders,
> We can be emotionally strong, but that dont mean a damn thing to a women infatuated with someone else...


Maybe women aren't 'supposed' to be the leaders, but other than that point, I experienced all of this with STBXH. From reading all of the stories of WS here on TAM, I'm starting to believe it's less of a gender thing, and more of a personality thing. 

STBXH is not an emotionally strong man. He is not a leader. He turned out to be both a bully and a pu$$y. Not very long after we married, I realized he would not have my back when the chips were down. And he proved that true many times over. I believed in our commitment and our marriage and stuck with him through multiple infatuations and EAs, being called controlling and needy when I expressed my 'issues' regarding them. He plays needy and sensitive to manipulate women all the time. 

I got the ILYBINILWY speech over a year ago. He's already openly dating the last EA, and we aren't even legally separated. I was by no means perfect. But I didn't deserve to be cheated on (even in non-physical affairs - and I'm not totally convinced they were), and ridiculed when I got upset about it. It never dawned on me to go looking for someone else, even when I hated how he treated me. It's just not who I am. But I realized that he is the kind of person who actively seeks out greener grass, rather than working on what he's already got. Better to totally dig up the old dead stuff -- roots, soil, and all --, get rid of it, and put fresh new stuff in its place.


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## mrmagoo

Shooboomafoo said:


> Sorry, I didnt mean to be caustic.
> Its just that Ive seen a lot of awesome men/fathers/daddies get their balls cut off even when theyve done right by their wives, marriages, and children. Then they spend a useless amount of time trying to figure out where "they" went wrong, when all it was, was picking a lousy woman to commit to.


No offense taken. The OP was sort of tongue in cheek and although it sounds like it doesn't speak to your situation, it is common. To be "one of the good ones" and I am not trying to be sarcastic here, and still get dumped on, yes I agree, that more boils down to picking a lousy woman to commit to. Sorry if thats the case. It is punishing to divest onesself from someone you were madly in love with but out of self preservation, it sometimes simply has to be done. Thank G I am climbing out of the limbo quagmire. In the end, I believe it is financial crap that got us here. I told my wife it's time to forget whos fault it is and move forward, trying to find a solution to a financial mess that WE made together. As the man and quasi leader/however you want to put it, I take ownership in this mess. Time for me to quit blaming her for whatever I perceived or hell, whatever she may have done to contribute. Time to somehow climb out of the ruins and ash, beaten and battered by money difficulties and time to begin again. Consequences, yes, but none as dear as tearing up my family. I had to re-evaluate and I have done just that. I see light at the end of the tunnel. But to your point, I hear completely.


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## Kearson

SRN said:


> I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I may be rehashing things, but the OP irritates me because under *NO* cricumstances is it OK to run into the arms of another man. No amount of neglect or distance justifies that. _Ever_.


I agree with this.

Yeah, your partner may treat you like crap and neglect you and blah, blah, blah, BUT, this is how I see it...

When I got married, I made a vow, I gave my WORD, to forsake all others (and most wedding vows have some version of that in them). I gave my word. My word to forsake all others had no qualifiers like "as long as you make me happy" or "as long as you give me hugs and do the dishes". NO. 

I gave my word. If I break that, then from that moment on, my word means nothing ever again to anyone. There is no sex on the planet worth losing the value of my promises.

This is why I have always been blunt with my H about my unhappiness and my desire to repair what is wrong with our marriage. I don't beat around the bush or expect him to mind read. Why? Because I don't believe in wasting time. If he's not going to wise up, then I want out. I know that I cannot live without sex and affection and there is no way I'm breaking my word, so he needs to either step up, or get out of my way.

I understand the excuses/reasons people cheat, and I'm sure some of it is pretty convincing, but you better believe I wouldn't be having a relationship with someone that's cheated, and I would have little respect for anyone who has. There is always a choice, but breaking your vow isn't one you should act on, ever (at least in my opinion).


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## angelpixie

Amen, Kearson. I guess in our new 'sophisticated' world we have to negotiate what 'forsaking all others' means. Does it only refer to physical relationship where sex is involved, and what do we mean by sex (referencing Clinton/Lewinsky here)? Does it refer to infatuations with no physical contact? Does it refer to deep emotional best friend relationships? Sad that cheaters will still try to find loopholes, or just not care when they break vows.

And I totally hear you on getting involved with a cheater. I don't know why OW would get involved with STBXH when she knew about us, but then why would STBXH get involved w/ OW when he knows she was flirting with him and she was still involved with someone else, too? The fog, I guess.


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## luckycardinal

Yep, cheating is just wrong. If you are that unhappy, LEAVE. I don't take marriage vows lightly and I've stuck around in a marriage that I'm sure many people wouldn't have for a long time. I've known I didn't love him for a long time. But, I made a vow to him and it's hard to break that. I have to be sure there is no way to save it. It's beginning to look that way to me.


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## that_girl

I wasn't married to my ex but it was like he went out of his way to put me down, make me feel like trash/garbage/stupid/unworthy.

I'll never forget his face the day I told him i was moving out.

The shock on his face was an insult, actually. It was just a day late and a dollar short. 

I also think he was shocked because I finally got my power back. 

But yea, I heard from friends after I left that he sat around crying for me for a while. Wtf? He abused me in every way except physically...he was too smart to leave visible bruises.


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## Amplexor

The OP's thought process is a phenomenon that I've seen on the forum for years. Husband is blindsided by the discovery of his wife's affair or gets the ILYBANILWY speech. Or she just plain walks out the door. The reaction is nearly identical when they come to the forum with words like "out of the blue", "I had no idea" or "WTF"? And that was exactly where I was after my D-Day and consequent "not in love with you" session. Is it a gender issue? Not totally but as a group, many of us share tendencies that play into this model. And women as a group have tendencies that can feed the scenario too. Our demise was a poster child for those tendencies. It all started with a lack of intimacy and sex that frustrated me. (Or my lack of attention to her that shut down her intimacy.) That frustration led me to distance my self and not attend to her emotional needs. She even warned me we were headed down a bad path. We'd try to correct but it only lasted a couple of weeks. Sooner or later we both gave up and just lived as room mates. The relationship was OK, but more arguing then was normal for us. Arguments completely unrelated to the core issues. The longer the sexual drought went on, the more I used porn to fill my needs. The longer I didn't spend time with her or communicating with her the further she drew away until she looked for that need to be filled by some one else. The two fed on each other until there really wasn't much of a marriage left. I discovered the EA on my own after suspecting something for a while. I was floored. After a few discussions and some time I was stunned that I didn't see it coming and that it was all my fault. WRONG! That was the absolute incorrect thing to do. I tried to emotionally shoulder the entire situation, failed and we both went to a very dark place. But I think that's were a lot of guys are when they first come here. Trying to shoulder the blame, frantically changing our behavior to compensate. We think as we always do. There is a problem, change some things to fix it and we should be good. But sweetie-pie has already left the building and is emotionally attached to another and we continue to spin our wheels in a strategy that more than likely will fail. Some couples get past that and really address the R but I don't think most do.


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## luckycardinal

Maybe the take away point to all this is - if you're a woman be VERY DIRECT in telling your spouse what's wrong. He isn't a mind reader. If you're a man, listen to her and take her seriously unless you don't care and if that's the case, then tell HER.


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## angelpixie

luckycardinal said:


> Maybe the take away point to all this is - if you're a woman be VERY DIRECT in telling your spouse what's wrong. He isn't a mind reader. If you're a man, listen to her and take her seriously unless you don't care and if that's the case, then tell HER.


Again, I don't think this is particular to just men (though that's who the OP was addressing). If *either* spouse is that unhappy, they owe it to their family, marriage, and themselves as individuals to get it out in the open sooner rather than later. If everything festers and then the WS decides it's time to go, they run the risk of losing out on being happy in their current relationship. I think the WS doesn't even consider that the LBS was unhappy, too. The LBS just didn't find someone else. 

Wouldn't it be better for both people to be happy, even if it takes work? That's the part about all of this that I just can't wrap my head around: the selfishness and tunnel vision of the cheating spouse. I would doubt that one really unhappy spouse married to a blissfully happy one is all that common. :scratchhead:


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## luckycardinal

Sure, I think it would be best for both to be happy, even if it takes work, but a lot of times one person isn't willing to change or even try. It's their way or the highway, so to speak. That shows pretty much the same amount of selfishness as cheating does. I think there are a lot of people who are miserable (like me) but just have a spouse who is complacent. Also, when you have allowed a person to treat you badly for a long time, they decide it's OK and it's VERY hard to break them of those behaviors after they're ingrained.


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## angelpixie

That is true, luckycardinal. I was just venting about those who decide to leave or cheat w/o even giving the other spouse a chance to work on things or to change. 

You are right though: either way, people will only change if they want to.


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## Jayb

To me, when one spouse is miserable and on the fence about leaving the relationship, then it is incumbent on both to come together and decide to work, compromise, correct, etc.

I have always been willing to do this. Am doing it now.

Because, if I had refused, then I could understand that spouse leaving. Thnigs remain the same and why be miserable.

But to see one spouse (me) willing to do so much in order to improve the relationship, while the other still resists, just shows closed-mindedness and selfishness of the other. I mention selfishness because there are children involved. And despite intentions, it is hurtful. It's the same thing as saying, I will not love you now, as you are, or in the future, if you change so much for the better. I will not love you if you try to improve our relationship. I will not love you if you apologize for past hurts and make-up for them all. I will not love you if you are happy with yourself. I will not love you if you become involved in others' lives in helping them. I will not love you if you are promoted at work and earn twice as much as you do now. I will not love you...........

And with a spouse who has that mindset, how can I attempt reconciliation? Why would I want to? It's as if my wife that I knew and loved had died and is replaced by the being now.

All of the changes I am doing are now for me. Meanwhile, my wife does no self-reflection, or look to improve herself. Any reconciliation must be mutually agreed upon before any healing can begin.



Sorry, I am just ranting away....


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## angelpixie

Jayb said:


> To me, when one spouse is miserable and on the fence about leaving the relationship, then it is incumbent on both to come together and decide to work, compromise, correct, etc.
> 
> I have always been willing to do this. Am doing it now.
> 
> Because, if I had refused, then I could understand that spouse leaving. Thnigs remain the same and why be miserable.
> 
> But to see one spouse (me) willing to do so much in order to improve the relationship, while the other still resists, just shows closed-mindedness and selfishness of the other. I mention selfishness because there are children involved. And despite intentions, it is hurtful. It's the same thing as saying, I will not love you now, as you are, or in the future, if you change so much for the better. I will not love you if you try to improve our relationship. I will not love you if you apologize for past hurts and make-up for them all. I will not love you if you are happy with yourself. I will not love you if you become involved in others' lives in helping them. I will not love you if you are promoted at work and earn twice as much as you do now. I will not love you...........
> 
> And with a spouse who has that mindset, how can I attempt reconciliation? Why would I want to? It's as if my wife that I knew and loved had died and is replaced by the being now.
> 
> All of the changes I am doing are now for me. Meanwhile, my wife does no self-reflection, or look to improve herself. Any reconciliation must be mutually agreed upon before any healing can begin.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I am just ranting away....


Don't be sorry. I think you summed up my feelings, too -- just substitute 'wife' with 'husband,' and that's how I view my break-up with STBXH, too.


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## OldGirl

Jayb, I was just going to say the same thing, but Angelpixie beat me to it. Rant away. You make a lot of sense.


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