# when does neglect become abuse?



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

It has taken me a long time to distinguish the core problems in my marriage from the more peripheral ones, but I've realized that neglect is probably the biggest one. My husband does not show me he loves me. He doesn't take care of me when I'm sick. If there's something I need, no matter how trivial or serious, he'll ignore my request.

Beyond that, he has neglected the kids. I've posted about the way he left the little one in a swimming pool with no life jacket, but there are many other instances. Just yesterday he fed the bigger one moldy yogurt. He didn't think it was a big deal. 

I don't think he's a capable parent. I don't say that lightly, I just don't think the kids are safe with him. He won't forget to feed them or fail to clothe them, so it's not call-child-protective-services neglect (nor would I ever let that happen), but I don't trust him to keep the kids safe. 

Also, has never been adequately pro-active about helping me protect the kids and myself from potential harm from strangers. When I rode the train home after dark with the 2 girls, walking about a quarter of a mile by ourselves along a dimly lit, deserted stretch of road, he wouldn't buy me mace (we're not in the US, I don't speak the language here. He does). He laughed when I said I wanted some. One time, here in this country, a strange man was taking photos of our younger daughter. I asked H to ask him to stop. He wouldn't. He wouldn't!!! I had to do it. I don't even speak the language and I had to confront this guy and tell him to stop photographing my daughter.

There's much more, of course, but I'd imagine you get the gist. The issue I'm struggling with is how I'll ever be able to get back to loving him (which I don't, right now) when I see him as someone I have to keep my children safe from, and someone who won't protect his family from harm. And I'm really starting to question if he even deserves the second (or third, or fourth) chance that I'm giving him.

I so wish I wasn't here. It's so tempting to just try to forget everything that has ever happened and just go through the motions. I'm really at a crisis here though, where I'm wondering if I have it in me to move forward with him. I'm only even considering it for the kids. 

I'm going to lay this all out on the table at our next session of marriage counseling. If you have any ideas, or can help me think this through, I'd really appreciate it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

He sounds like a child trapped in a man's body. It just doesn't dawn on him to care for others like a small child would think.


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## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

This is an incredibly difficult situation to be in. I am sorry for this. Really I do not have a ton of advice for you because it sounds like he is just not who you need. The only thing that I can personally suggest is making sure he is completely aware of how serious you are about this, and making sure he clearly understands what it is that is bothering you, and if he does not fix it you are considering divorce.

If he chooses to not change, then you cannot change him, we can only change ourselves and we need to want it. I would however start to detach from him and do not pretend like you are happy. If you start to detach from him (lovingly) he will hopefully start to see you are serious about being independent and you are considering leaving. 

The absolute most important thing however is if you say something, mean it, and follow through or he will never take you seriously.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

mavash, he really is. Of course we have a parent/child dynamic in the relationship, and I feel responsible for him and his happiness. I don't want to hurt him, because I do care for him. It's just that I care for him in the way a mother cares for her child.

Pravius, I've tried telling him gently, but nothing seems to get through to him. We're doing MC together and he'll continue IC with her after I go back to the US, so I feel like she's my last hope. If she can't get through to him, it's either a divorce or live like this. Which is too depressing to consider, so for now I'm just not looking beyond the next few months.

It's depressing though.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Facing truth is often depressing. That's normal. It's what you do with that truth that matters most.


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## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

northernlights said:


> mavash, he really is. Of course we have a parent/child dynamic in the relationship, and I feel responsible for him and his happiness. I don't want to hurt him, because I do care for him. It's just that I care for him in the way a mother cares for her child.
> 
> Pravius, I've tried telling him gently, but nothing seems to get through to him. We're doing MC together and he'll continue IC with her after I go back to the US, so I feel like she's my last hope. If she can't get through to him, it's either a divorce or live like this. Which is too depressing to consider, so for now I'm just not looking beyond the next few months.
> 
> It's depressing though.


Does he realize how close you are to actually divorcing him? Some men, myself included have taken my wife for granted, some guys get so used to the life they are in they can't see past that. When my wife told me that she was interested in sleeping with another man, that woke me up really fast and forced me to start working on myself. Since then our marriage has been improving and she does not feel the need to seek things from other men. What she did was completely wrong, but it was effective for me to see what I was doing wrong.


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

I feel like neglect becomes abuse when they purposefully continue to do things when they've already been told it hurts you.

I am SO sorry you're in this situation.  As it sounds like he will not change, and you and your children's safety is at risk, I would consider leaving. Lets see him "laugh" at your mace request if you get raped/one of his children gets abducted.

Speaking of mace: In the meantime, can you get the mace yourself? If you are having to walk around town alone like that, you NEED protection! With or without his consent.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

(((NORTHERN LIGHTS)))

I'm not being sarcastic I'm liking the idea of you doing a 180.Seems almost as if you are "hanging on to" if or when your husband will "stop" this or "be that" ..You are putting your life on "hold" waiting for him to be "different"..YOU take care of your self YOU take care of your children rely on him as least possible..

But also "never say never"..Never is when you are dead..((((HUGS))))


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Pravius said:


> Does he realize how close you are to actually divorcing him? Some men, myself included have taken my wife for granted, some guys get so used to the life they are in they can't see past that. When my wife told me that she was interested in sleeping with another man, that woke me up really fast and forced me to start working on myself. Since then our marriage has been improving and she does not feel the need to seek things from other men. What she did was completely wrong, but it was effective for me to see what I was doing wrong.


Yeah, he does. I told him 3 years ago that if it wasn't for the kids, I'd be gone. Nothing changed. In fact, I think he got exactly the opposite of what I was hoping out of the conversation: we do have kids, therefore I'm not going anywhere. Ultimately, he knows I'm still staying for the kids. I seem to be unable to lie to him and tell him I'm willing to go without it being true. I think he sees it now as him having 10 years before I'll go, so maybe in 8 or 9 years he'll try to do better.

I wish it was enough for him that I'm unhappy. I get so jealous when I see men on here who hear the things I told my husband years ago and get to work.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm going to try the 180. I'm so naturally social and talkative that it's very difficult for me to not just start talking to him. We're separating due to my being kicked out of the country, and I think he might miss my cooking enough to get a scare. 

Thank you for the support you guys.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh and "neglect" becomes abuse when its chronic .And has a real "negative" debilitating" affect that a reasonably (mentally sane and of intelligence level) know the likely results of neglect.It can also be a one timer depending..But that could be called "criminal neglect')

Let me ask you this..I KNOW the temperature rises in the cars here in Texas (in the summer and no air conditioning) in a car to FATAL degrees..And quickly..I know its possible that a small person especially (like a child say 4 or under) is at risk..I leave the child in the car for 10 minutes without air conditioning to "run in the store"..I have never done that before..they have a heat stroke and die..Is that abuse or neglect???


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I see what you're saying dallasapple. 

Supposed (God forbid), my daughter had drowned in that pool. Would that have been a tragic accident, or would my husband have been criminally responsible? That's something I keep finding myself struggling with. I'm not sure that I can forgive him for that alone. But, she didn't drown. Should I just be thankful and let it go? 

I'm stuck. I just don't know. Does that mean I should spend more time thinking about it? Less time thinking, more letting go? I'm so confused.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

I dont think neglect becomes abuse after a certain time limit, I think neglect IS abuse. If you neglected your child, it would be abuse. Neglect is not taking someone for granted though, it is willfully not caring for someone who needs cared for, whether it be emotional or physical. I hope things get better for you!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> But, she didn't drown. Should I just be thankful and let it go?


You should be thankful.But very cautious.((((HUGS))))


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I'm stuck. I just don't know. Does that mean I should spend more time thinking about it? Less time thinking, more letting go? I'm so confused.


Do not be confused.Your husband (based on what you have said ) is not responsible.Do not trust him..No confusion..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

anony2 said:


> I dont think neglect becomes abuse after a certain time limit, I think neglect IS abuse. If you neglected your child, it would be abuse. Neglect is not taking someone for granted though, it is willfully not caring for someone who needs cared for, whether it be emotional or physical. I hope things get better for you!


I disagree..Neglect isnt "abuse".Or there wouldn't be two terms.Its legally defined as well.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I disagree..Neglect isnt "abuse".Or there wouldn't be two terms.Its legally defined as well.


maybe I'm asking the wrong question? maybe it's a distinction without a difference?


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I disagree..Neglect isnt "abuse".Or there wouldn't be two terms.Its legally defined as well.


I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying or I am not saying it correctly. Neglect is a form of abuse, neglect does not become abuse after a certain length of time.

For instance, if you neglect your child, that is abusive to them, you do not have to neglect them repeatedly for it to be abuse.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Yeah, he does. I told him 3 years ago that if it wasn't for the kids, I'd be gone. Nothing changed. In fact, I think he got exactly the opposite of what I was hoping out of the conversation: we do have kids, therefore I'm not going anywhere. Ultimately, he knows I'm still staying for the kids. I seem to be unable to lie to him and tell him I'm willing to go without it being true. I think he sees it now as him having 10 years before I'll go, so maybe in 8 or 9 years he'll try to do better.
> 
> I wish it was enough for him that I'm unhappy. I get so jealous when I see men on here who hear the things I told my husband years ago and get to work.


Nothing has changed because he feels safe. He knows you aren't going anywhere even if it is only because of the kids. It would be a mistake to tell him you are willing to go if you are not. It can't be faked, he will know it. Like the others have said, work on you, detach, focus on yourself and the kids. When you start making positive changes, making yourself happy he may notice the changes and start to fear losing you. Either way you will be better off and in a better position to make decisions about what you for your future.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

northernlights said:


> maybe I'm asking the wrong question? maybe it's a distinction without a difference?


"Neglect

*Neglect is the most common form of abuse seen and may have long-term effects.* Neglect is failing to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, supervision or medical care. Parents must provide adequate supervision, care, guidance and protection to keep children from physical or mental harm. Parents must also provide appropriate treatment for children's problems. Children will have minor injuries during childhood. When accidental injuries are frequent, they may be the result of neglect." 

Children & Teens What is child abuse and neglect?

I think you used it in the proper terminology.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

thank you for that definition anony2. He's definitely neglectful then. But I suppose it doesn't matter if it qualifies as abuse, because I don't have to remove the kids from the house to protect them like I would if her were physically, verbally, or emotionally abusive. Unfortunately for me, protecting them means I haven't been able to leave them alone in his care for years. It's a huge burden, and one I resent.

You guys are right that I have to detach and work on me. I've felt like detaching would be a death blow to the marriage so I've resisted it, but I've been reading here that you have to be willing to lose the marriage sometimes to save it, and I see the logic. I'm afraid that if I fully detach, I'll never be able to go back. But I'm trying to remember to worry about that when I get there.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

I wouldnt get wrapped up in the whole defining neglect/abuse. These concepts are important. I'm not minimizing this at all . My point is how is that going to help you right now? The fact is, you dont feel safe, protected or loved. This is what matters.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

inarut said:


> I wouldnt get wrapped up in the whole defining neglect/abuse. These concepts are important. I'm not minimizing this at all . My point is how is that going to help you right now? The fact is, you dont feel safe, protected or loved. This is what matters.


I think I do it because I'm looking for answers on how to proceed. Like, if it's abuse, I can say "well what do you do when your kids are being abused?", and the answers are easy. But your right that it's ultimately a distracting question, because ultimately the situation is unique. 

You're right that I don't feel safe, protected, or loved. Leaving him will give me none of these things either. I know I can't go wrong in making myself into a better, stronger person, so I guess that answers my question?


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

northernlights said:


> *I think I do it because I'm looking for answers on how to proceed. Like, if it's abuse, I can say "well what do you do when your kids are being abused?", and the answers are easy. *But your right that it's ultimately a distracting question,* because ultimately the situation is unique. *
> You're right that I don't feel safe, protected, or loved. Leaving him will give me none of these things either. I know I can't go wrong in making myself into a better, stronger person, so I guess that answers my question?


Thats what I was thinking. I understand, there were many times I hoped my ex would cheat on me so I could be done and feel certain about it. It would have taken the responsibilty of the decision out of my hands at least in my mind.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

anony2 said:


> I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying or I am not saying it correctly. Neglect is a form of abuse, neglect does not become abuse after a certain length of time.
> 
> For instance, if you neglect your child, that is abusive to them, you do not have to neglect them repeatedly for it to be abuse.


I disagree...


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I think I do it because I'm looking for answers on how to proceed. Like, if it's abuse, I can say "well what do you do when your kids are being abused?", and the answers are easy. But your right that it's ultimately a distracting question, because ultimately the situation is unique.
> 
> *You're right that I don't feel safe, protected, or loved. Leaving him will give me none of these things either*. I know I can't go wrong in making myself into a better, stronger person, so I guess that answers my question?


Whatever you decide to do in the end is obviously up to you. I'm not trying to sway you. I just want you to know that you can learn to feel these things on on your own. You can keep yourself safe and protected, you can love you....You are capable and you are already doing these things to some extent.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Neglect is the most common form of abuse seen and may have long-term effects. Neglect is failing to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, supervision or medical care. Parents must provide adequate supervision, care, guidance and protection to keep children from physical or mental harm. Parents must also provide appropriate treatment for children's problems. Children will have minor injuries during childhood. When accidental injuries are frequent, they may be the result of neglect."


Why say one is neglect and one is abuse?Why have differrent terms?Oh and by the way children will have minor injuries during childhood and if frequent are as a result of "neglect" why not call it abuse?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

O.K lets say you have child (if its food and water) is abuse .Your 3 year old awakes and you provide him or her a cinnamin bun.(with milk)(SUGAR AND FAT AND HORMONES)fIR LUNCH ITS PROVIDED WHITE FLOUR IN THE FORM OF "MACORONI" and processed cheese..Its never read to..never taken on a bike ride ..but you keep "its" clean and stuffed full of nitrates(hot dogs) and low nutrient food..

Is that neglect or child abuse?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> O.K lets say you have child (if its food and water) is abuse .Your 3 year old awakes and you provide him or her a cinnamin bun.(with milk)(SUGAR AND FAT AND HORMONES)fIR LUNCH ITS PROVIDED WHITE FLOUR IN THE FORM OF "MACORONI" and processed cheese..Its never read to..never taken on a bike ride ..but you keep "its" clean and stuffed full of nitrates(hot dogs) and low nutrient food..


:scratchhead:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Acorn said:


> :scratchhead:


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Why say one is neglect and one is abuse?Why have differrent terms?Oh and by the way children will have minor injuries during childhood and if frequent are as a result of "neglect" why not call it abuse?


Again, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Neglect is a form of abuse and yes, it only has to happen once for it to be considered neglect. 

A good example would be for a parent leaving their child in a locked car in the heat. 

Another good example as the OP said...leaving the infant in a swimming pool unattended. 

Both of these instances the child could have died. The job of the parent is to provide care for a child. If we do not provide the proper care, whether it be food, clothing, supervision or so on, then the child is neglected...which is abuse.


"Neglect is a *passive form of abuse* in which a perpetrator is responsible to provide care for a victim *who is unable to care for himself or herself*, but fails to provide adequate care."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neglect


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I disagree..Neglect isnt "abuse".Or there wouldn't be two terms.Its legally defined as well.


Oh, I think all neglect is abusive, but not all abuse is neglect. 

Neglect can scar a person worse. After all, how do you *prove* it? There are no scars or bruises. It's easier for the victim to blame him or herself. And damn near impossible to prove in court.

As someone else stated, though, the distinctions aren't important. The important question is "Are my children being raised in a safe, healthy, productive environment?" If the answer is no, then you have a duty to create that for them.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Oh, I think all neglect is abusive, but not all abuse is neglect.
> 
> Neglect can scar a person worse. After all, how do you *prove* it? There are no scars or bruises. It's easier for the victim to blame him or herself. And damn near impossible to prove in court.
> 
> As someone else stated, though, the distinctions aren't important. The important question is "Are my children being raised in a safe, healthy, productive environment?" If the answer is no, then you have a duty to create that for them.


I cant agree...I know they are closely related..but if "all neglect" is abuse they have to be vice versa..

Name abuse that isnt neglect.(an example).


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I cant agree...I know they are closely related..but if "all neglect" is abuse they have to be vice versa..
> 
> Name abuse that isnt neglect.(an example).


Physical abuse is not neglect.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Another good example as the OP said...leaving the infant in a swimming pool unattended.


But I wouldn't call that "abuse"..unless we are stretching it (then it has to go both ways) as in an "abuse of authority"..or some such..Look at the circumstances.There are circmstances that leaving that child unattended would be neglect but not abuse..But say holding the child under water trying to drown them is always "abuse" if that makes sense..neglect can "be abuse"..depending..but abuse is abuse..not just "neglect"..neglect "can" be without malice of fore thought...neglect is or can be without intention..abuse I think of is with an "intent " and ot knowingly harm..If I am careless and thoughless..is differrent than if I take a knife and purpopsely stab someone..Hope Im clearing it up...

YIKES!!!


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

I think what's happening here is that we're trying to discuss abstracts and specifics interchangeably. I would phrase it this way:

Child abuse overall can consist of neglect as well as physical, mental, sexual and emotional abuse. All are both morally and legally wrong. 

Neglect is typically passive. It can be framed in terms of things reasonably expected that are "not done" for a child. It can be through ignorance, apathy or malice, but the absense of these acts puts the child at some kind of risk. This could include not adequately supervising a child, not feeding them, not obtaining medical treatment when needed, not sending them to school, etc.

The other types of abuse can be framed as more active. They are things you "do" to a child. This can be excessive discipline, molestation, inappropriate restraint and all kind of things. 

So from that point of view, both neglect and physical abuse are a part of what constitutes child abuse. However the interventions and consequences are usually different based on the differences between the acts.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

anony2 said:


> Physical abuse is not neglect.


Thats what I said..

Neglect also isnt "abuse"..

Are we going in a circle..I already had my fights today I dont want to fight but I'm not going to agree neglect is :abuse" not blanket..I need clarifying on that..

:flowerkitty:

I needed a flower..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

How about this ..neglect is BAD...  and abuse is bad 

Neglect and abuse are bad! 


:iagree:


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Thats what I said..
> 
> Neglect also isnt "abuse"..
> 
> ...


LOL oh dearheart, I am not fighting with you on this at all and I didn't take it that you were either.  

I think we are going in circles or we just aren't seeing it clearly. Either way, as the other person said, it is bad.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> O.K lets say you have child (if its food and water) is abuse .Your 3 year old awakes and you provide him or her a cinnamin bun.(with milk)(SUGAR AND FAT AND HORMONES)fIR LUNCH ITS PROVIDED WHITE FLOUR IN THE FORM OF "MACORONI" and processed cheese..Its never read to..never taken on a bike ride ..but you keep "its" clean and stuffed full of nitrates(hot dogs) and low nutrient food..
> 
> Is that neglect or child abuse?


According to the laws - it is neglect. Neglect can be the causative of abuse though.

It is correct that neglect is different from abuse. Take this example:

Have a patient in a hospital bed, don't put the bed rail up while collecting tools or items needed for a task to be done for that patient. Patient falls out of bed and breaks their wrist. What is that? Negligence, essentially - neglect.

Have a patient who is difficult to perform a particular task with (ex: bed bath), they fight it, scream, slap at and try to bite the health care worker. Health care worker retaliates by slapping the patients hand, screaming back at them and taking away their autonomy and choice by physical force (forced bed bath)... What is that - Abuse.

Two completely different situations for the same patient for the same task...


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> How about this ..neglect is BAD...  and abuse is bad
> 
> Neglect and abuse are bad!
> 
> ...


absolutely nobody would disagree with you on this


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

The point is....it doesn't matter what you call it. It is not working for you and your children. What is the point of "staying"...if it's not only dysfunctional but scary, worrisome, and beyond unfullfilling? 

If you are leaving the country for whatever reason...that IS your chance. Your chance to disconnect, to get your own "stuff" together, to take care of yourself and your family.... Look at it as an opportunity!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I cant agree...I know they are closely related..but if "all neglect" is abuse they have to be vice versa..
> 
> Name abuse that isnt neglect.(an example).


Here's where you're getting hung up. The logical "reverse" of "If neglect then abuse" (If A then B) is NOT "If abuse then neglect" (If B then A). The logical reverse is called the contrapositive, and it's "If Not B then Not A." So the ONLY other logical statement you're allowed to draw from If neglect than abuse is "If no abuse then no neglect." A child who's not being abused in any form is not being subjected to neglect. Also, "abuse" here means maltreatment of any kind, not just physically harming.


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## Zing (Nov 15, 2012)

Northernlights, not stepping in to participate in the abuse/neglect debate since everyone before me has already worded it so well and am sure convinced you that both can be equally detrimental...what I'm attempting to say is my assumptions on your husband's stance in the entire matter...
Seeing how detached he is in your relationship..something tells me even the 180 is NOT going to have any effect on him...as you say he is quite apathetic and does the bare minimum (sometimes not even that) to hold on to status of a 'family' man...
My words might sound harsh, but I suspect that even if you pack your bags and leave he is going to want you back more because *he is inconvenienced and uncomfortable rather than because he misses you*... I have a feeling that how much ever you try, (even the final ultimatums) are not going to have the extent of effect on him that you want...


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