# spiralling marriage



## Changecage (Jan 14, 2020)

I've been married for 18 years and knew my wife for an additional 5 years. we have two beautiful kids and for the most part we have a great marriage. However, porn has always been an issue (I look at it and she feels it objectifies women). during a recent fight, she admitted to not trusting me for "18 years." I admit that within the last year I have violated this trust (not an affair or flirting with other people, but I told her some of my fetishes and on rare occasions she sees the porn I look at on accident). She tells me I have always been supportive and a wonderful father and I consider her my best friend and during the fight we talked about how she felt and we agreed to work to build the relationship back up, but in the days since I am fixating on not having her trust for our entire marriage. She never said anything and I keep circling back to what did I do 18 years ago to lose her trust. Am I just being a jerk for thinking if she didn’t even trust me when we were first married, why did we even get married.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Chances are she married you anyway because so many people told her "All men use porn" and minimize the effect it can have on people. I don't know why any woman would trust a man who can't take his eyes off watching paid sex workers have sex over and over. And yes, of course you're objectifying women, worse really. A lot of those women have abuse in their backgrounds and a lot of them these days are being sex-trafficked. I know men would rather think of them as slap-happy coquettes who are jumping up and down to do oral on them, but that's not the case.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

So no flirting or chatting with other women online, no cheating not ever in 18 years?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I wouldn't trust s man who watched porn and wouldn't stop despite my unhappiness about it either.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Changecage said:


> I've been married for 18 years and knew my wife for an additional 5 years. we have two beautiful kids and for the most part we have a great marriage. However, porn has always been an issue (I look at it and she feels it objectifies women). during a recent fight, she admitted to not trusting me for "18 years." I admit that within the last year I have violated this trust (not an affair or flirting with other people, but I told her some of my fetishes and on rare occasions she sees the porn I look at on accident). She tells me I have always been supportive and a wonderful father and I consider her my best friend and during the fight we talked about how she felt and we agreed to work to build the relationship back up, but in the days since I am fixating on not having her trust for our entire marriage. She never said anything and I keep circling back to what did I do 18 years ago to lose her trust. Am I just being a jerk for thinking if she didn’t even trust me when we were first married, why did we even get married.


You are being manipulated, do not allow it. She doesn’t get to go back 18 years and say she never trusted you, even though you’ve done nothing to break her trust. 

Looking at porn (while sub-optimal on a number of levels) It’s not infidelity -and unless you promised her you would never look at it, not some thing she gets to cudgel you with as an existential breach of trust in the marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DudeInProgress said:


> You are being manipulated, do not allow it. She doesn’t get to go back 18 years and say she never trusted you, even though you’ve done nothing to break her trust.
> 
> Looking at porn (while sub-optimal on a number of levels) It’s not infidelity -and unless you promised her you would never look at it, not some thing she gets to cudgel you with as an existential breach of trust in the marriage.


It's certainly a form of cheating. She has made it clear she doesn't like him watching it, yet what has he done about it. Nothing.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> It's certainly a form of cheating. She has made it clear she doesn't like him watching it, yet what has he done about it. Nothing.


Not cheating. And unless he promised he would never watch it, not a breach of trust.

She doesn’t like him watching it...and? 
There’s plenty of things my wife does/doesn’t do that I don’t like and vice versa. 
If something is a serious boundary issue for your spouse, you take it seriously (if you’re interested in maintaining a good marriage anyway). 
Otherwise, it’s not a good idea to let your wife dictate your actions and jump at her whim.

None of this is a defense of porn by the way. I think it often has a negative impact on men psychologically and on relationships.

But I get the feeling she is blowing the issue out of proportion to use as a cudgel and to manipulate him. 
Re-writing the marital history now to say there’s never been any trust? Nope, OP should not supplicate to that disingenuous manipulation.
Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s my guess based on limited info.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Changecage said:


> I've been married for 18 years and knew my wife for an additional 5 years. we have two beautiful kids and for the most part we have a great marriage. However, porn has always been an issue (I look at it and she feels it objectifies women). during a recent fight, she admitted to not trusting me for "18 years." I admit that within the last year I have violated this trust (not an affair or flirting with other people, but I told her some of my fetishes and on rare occasions she sees the porn I look at on accident). She tells me I have always been supportive and a wonderful father and I consider her my best friend and during the fight we talked about how she felt and we agreed to work to build the relationship back up, but in the days since I am fixating on not having her trust for our entire marriage. She never said anything and I keep circling back to what did I do 18 years ago to lose her trust. Am I just being a jerk for thinking if she didn’t even trust me when we were first married, why did we even get married.


I don't understand how you telling her your fetishes violated her trust in you? If anything being vulnerable by opening up about something like that is usually a sign of mutual trust.

Porn in moderation is okay, but has it taken away from your sex life with your wife in any way? If so, then it is wrong. I look at porn, but it doesn't take away from my time with my wife. Sometimes we watch together. 

I think she is wrong in throwing the never trusted you thing in your face now after 18 years, but you have to do something. Have you asked her how you can gain her trust? If she has no answer then she really isn't looking for you to improve, she is just using the statement as a weapon


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DudeInProgress said:


> Not cheating. And unless he promised he would never watch it, not a breach of trust.
> 
> She doesn’t like him watching it...and?
> There’s plenty of things my wife does/doesn’t do that I don’t like and vice versa.
> ...


We will have to agree to disagree on whether it's cheating. If I was doing something my spouse was unhappy about of course I would stop out of love and respect for him. Why would I not?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> Not cheating. And unless he promised he would never watch it, not a breach of trust.
> 
> She doesn’t like him watching it...and?
> There’s plenty of things my wife does/doesn’t do that I don’t like and vice versa.
> ...


Potatoe potato. Some consider it cheating. If my wife was getting all hot and bothered and getting off fantasizing about some other dudes junk. We are done. It is sexual immorral behavior and Biblical grounds for divorce.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> Potatoe potato. Some consider it cheating. If my wife was getting all hot and bothered and getting off fantasizing about some other dudes junk. We are done. It is sexual immorral behavior and Biblical grounds for divorce.


Ever take a look at the romance novels some women read? Verbal porn, just not on film. And then there’s 50 shades. Chick porn, and they do fantasize


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

People are all going to have different opinions about porn, it is a divisive topic on these boards and always will be. 

The problems here are 2 specific issues, you still continued with it after she told you she had a problem with it. Did you have an actually have a sit-down conversation about it? Or did she just voice her opinion and you just ignore it and move on?

The 18 years of mistrust. Did she just now bring that up for the first time?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Stop twisting things around in your head and focusing on this one sentence she said. How about focusing on what you have done every time you looked at that crap, knowing if your wife knew it would hurt her. It doesn’t matter whether she is right to be hurt or not, the fact is that you are putting your porn addiction ahead of your wife. Stop that childish ********, show some self discipline, and BE a trustworthy husband and you won’t have to worry about what she thinks anymore because YOU will know and that will be good enough.
Your problem is not your wife or what your wife said. Your problem is looking you on the mirror every morning. 

If your wife has sex with you, spend all that sexual energy on her and you’ll figure out how to let that porn go. Or you can just keep having fights with your wife and fixating on anything and everything you can in order to dodge taking Any personal responsibility and likely driving the love for you out of your wife.

come on, man. Whip this addiction and have a better marriage. Why not?? Is she not worth it?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> Ever take a look at the romance novels some women read? Verbal porn, just not on film. And then there’s 50 shades. Chick porn, and they do fantasize


Wife dont read any. I agree on 50 SOG. I know 2 wives that got all worked up fantasizing about CG from 50sog and started cheating on their hubby. One liked the big increase in sex while she was reading it. I was like Dude! She is doing the guy from the book and you are just the flesh dildo she is using. When she started cheating on him i didnt have the heart to say, tell me again how that book is benefitting your sex life.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DudeInProgress said:


> Ever take a look at the romance novels some women read? Verbal porn, just not on film. And then there’s 50 shades. Chick porn, and they do fantasize


Many women don't read that stuff, I never would, but even so I would far rather a spouse read a book than watched real people on a film.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

It's "cheating" if you compromise your sex life because of the use of porn. Cheating in the sense of cheating your wife out of a satisfactory sex life. OP, I have the feeling your wife doesn't particularly like your fetishes... there are fetishes and fetishes. I wonder what yours are...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Changecage said:


> ......However, *porn has always been an issue* (I look at it and *she feels it objectifies women)*. during a recent fight, she admitted to not trusting me for "18 years."
> 
> .......She tells me I have always been supportive and a wonderful father and I consider her my best friend and during the fight we talked about how she felt and we agreed to work to build the relationship back up, *but in the days since I am fixating on not having her trust for our entire marriage*. She never said anything and I keep circling back to what did I do 18 years ago to lose her trust. *Am I just being a jerk for thinking if she didn’t even trust me when we were first married, why did we even get married.*


Let's focus on what you wrote. You are not being a jerk, but you are over reacting.

You said that "porn has always been an issue." Well that means it was an issue before your fight. If you really meant "always an issue" then yes, it probably has been an issue since the beginning of your relationship. She has given you a reason why she doesn't like you watching porn. 

You need to ask yourself, do you not care what she thinks or do you not care how it makes her feel?

And now the flip side. You can't change your partner. You can ask them to change, but you can't change them. That also means she can't change you, but she can ask in the hopes that you will change yourself. Those are the major questions you need to do some introspection on. 

If this has "always" been an issue, why is this boiling over now? Is there something that is making her feel less secure about you sexual focus on her? A friend of her's divorce, problems in the bedroom, medical changes in her? 

Again, why now? How about the age of your children? Any of them reaching puberty and she might be afraid they will find your porn?

For me, the two of you should sit down outside the bedroom and when your kids are out of the house and discuss what is going on and how the fight has really hit you emotionally. Don't try to tell her she is wrong, ask her (and listen) why is this such a big deal and why now. Really listen and try to see things from her perspective. Once you understand her then you get to decide whether you want to change yourself or not. At that point she either has to accept you as you are or decide it is such a big deal she will leave/divorce you. If she or you are smart and it comes to that, then marriage counseling may be appropriate.

Good luck.

P.S. To me there is porn and then there is PORN. I knew a King County Deputy who had some inside knowledge on the Ted Bundy murders. Sometimes PORN can trigger violence. There is "snuf porn;" there is violent porn, where people are beaten and abused; there is "rape-like" porn; abduction porn; and there are sever bondage or impact "play" porn. I think that all of those types of porn are inappropriate and should not be watched in a house with children. They can desensitize people's minds and emotions.

On the other hand, non-violent porn that depicts caring, consensual sex is not such a big deal in my book, unless it interferes with your relationship with your wife. Focus on the words "interferes with your relationship with your wife." It sounds like it might be either interfering with her desire for you, her trust in you, or her opinion of you. Again, she doesn't get to change you, as only you can change yourself.

Talk to her and find out why and why now. Good luck.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> It's "cheating" if you compromise your sex life because of the use of porn. Cheating in the sense of cheating your wife out of a satisfactory sex life. OP, I have the feeling your wife doesn't particularly like your fetishes... there are fetishes and fetishes. I wonder what yours are...


I see it as cheating when your sexual focus is on other women which it is in porn. Anyway whether its cheating or not its very unhelpful for a marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> Let's focus on what you wrote. You are not being a jerk, but you are over reacting.
> 
> You said that "porn has always been an issue." Well that means it was an issue before your fight. If you really meant "always an issue" then yes, it probably has been an issue since the beginning of your relationship. She has given you a reason why she doesn't like you watching porn.
> 
> ...


Very ittle porn shows caring sex. How can it when they are acting.


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

Why do you do it if you know how she feels about it? It seems your desire to look at other women and wank yourself off to them is much more important to you than how you make her feel.


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

DudeInProgress said:


> You are being manipulated, do not allow it. She doesn’t get to go back 18 years and say she never trusted you, even though you’ve done nothing to break her trust.
> 
> Looking at porn (while sub-optimal on a number of levels) It’s not infidelity -and unless you promised her you would never look at it, not some thing she gets to cudgel you with as an existential breach of trust in the marriage.


It absolutely is infidelity. It's a deal breaker in my marriage.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

AndStilliRise said:


> It absolutely is infidelity. It's a deal breaker in my marriage.


It absolutely is not infidelity. It's one of many forms of entertainment in my marriage.

Plus my wife and I have even made some of our own and posted it on a fetish website for others to enjoy.

That said @Changecage, I think you ought to be open about it and tell your wife to get over it.


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

Personal said:


> It absolutely is not infidelity. It's one of many forms of entertainment in my marriage.
> 
> Plus my wife and I have even made some of our own and posted it on a fetish website for others to enjoy.
> 
> That said @Changecage, I think you ought to be open about it and tell your wife to get over it.


If the two of you agree, that's one thing. If you don't, there will always be an issue. If one person feels it's cheating, but the other does not, there will not be a way to change their mind. Personally, I will never, ever be in a relationship with porn involved in any way.

However, why a person would willfully choose porn over their spouse when they are are aware that their spouse does not like it is an entirely different story.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Many women don't read that stuff, I never would, but even so I would far rather a spouse read a book than watched real people on a film.


Right, because people in a book are not real women being exploited.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> I see it as cheating when your sexual focus is on other women which it is in porn. Anyway whether its cheating or not its very unhelpful for a marriage.


To me it's kind of irrelevant whether it's cheating or not. Very few women want their man salivating over other women, much less masturbating over them. It would make any sane woman wonder why he bothered to get married. 

And I find it very disheartening that most men on this forum don't take the abuse, exploitation, humiliation, and sex trafficking aspect of women in porn seriously. That is by far my biggest objection to it. Whether I cared if my husband found other women attractive or not is one thing, but I don't want to live with someone who thinks it's fine to exploit women and who actually enjoys the subjugation of and humiliation toward women that is prevalent in most porn. To me, that is having not enough ethics and respect.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And I find it very disheartening that most men on this forum don't take the abuse, exploitation, humiliation, and sex trafficking aspect of women in porn seriously. That is by far my biggest objection to it. Whether I cared if my husband found other women attractive or not is one thing, but I don't want to live with someone who thinks it's fine to exploit women and who actually enjoys the subjugation of and humiliation toward women that is prevalent in most porn. To me, that is having not enough ethics and respect.


_A new study challenges that assumption. According to the study, published this month in the Journal of Sex Research, a significant percentage of women in porn do report to have been molested as children—but nearly as many women outside the porn industry report the same thing._



https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2012.719168



not sure what other studies there are, but it would seem that a LOT of porn workers have chosen this profession, and are in control of their own finances (as in the onlyfans performers).

and the porn industry recently did go thru its video files and delete anything that had even the appearance of being exploitive of the actor. Porn Hub deleted over half its film clips.









Pornhub Just Deleted Most of Its Content


Millions of unverified videos are being purged from the website pending review.




www.vulture.com





it seems like the industry is TRYING to become more legit. And it seems like the USA DOJ is applying pressure in that direction. 

Not sure it would be fair to have all porn banned, and put all those sex workers out of work in the middle of a pandemic!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And I find it very disheartening that most men on this forum don't take the abuse, exploitation, humiliation, and sex trafficking aspect of women in porn seriously.


You could say the same thing for the clothes or shoes that most people wear. Or the coffee or tea that people drink, the chocolate people eat, or the phones that people use, on and on interminably. Unfortunately exploitation and abuse are conditions that are present in all human industry, and are certainly not exclusive to or all pervasive in pornography production and distribution.

For a different perspective on this, "The Feminist Porn Book", Edited by Tristan Taormino, Constance Penley, Celine Parrenas Shimizu, and Mireille Miller-Young, is worth reading.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Right, because people in a book are not real women being exploited.


Absolutely.


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## AndStilliRise (Nov 9, 2020)

Personal said:


> You could say the same thing for the clothes or shoes that most people wear. Or the coffee or tea that people drink, the chocolate people eat, or the phones that people use, on and on interminably. Unfortunately exploitation and abuse are conditions that are present in all human industry, and are certainly not exclusive to or all pervasive in pornography production and distribution.
> 
> For a different perspective on this, "The Feminist Porn Book", Edited by Tristan Taormino, Constance Penley, Celine Parrenas Shimizu, and Mireille Miller-Young, is worth reading.


I always find it amusing what lengths men go to to defend their obsession of ogling, fantasizing about, and getting their rocks off to other women that is not their spouse. Especially knowing the violence and trafficking it supports.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

AndStilliRise said:


> I always find it amusing what lengths men go to to defend their obsession of ogling, fantasizing about, and getting their rocks off to other women that is not their spouse. Especially knowing the violence and trafficking it supports.


No lengths at all, I've read the book I recommended. What I wrote is true of all human industry.

Plus of all the sexual relationships partners I have had (all atheists and one at the time practicing Catholic woman) all have liked pornographic and erotic media as well.

The reality is not all women share your opinion on this. Which also includes my wife, who was a Feminist activist and organiser through most of the 1990s and still identifies as a Feminist.

As to ogling my wife even actively encourages me to hire women (or be paid by them). So they can pose nude for me in person, to render their images through drawing, painting and photography. My wife also poses nude for me as well for drawings, painting and photography for nude and erotic art.

Plus over the years my wife and I have made our own home made pornography. Which we freely share (actually we pay a fee to support that website), on a fetish website for others to see (ogle and masturbate to). Yet there was no violence or trafficking involved in the production of our own pornography.

Not all pornography is unethically produced, not all women are opposed to pornography, and not all women seen in pornography are victims.


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## Changecage (Jan 14, 2020)

Luckylucky said:


> So no flirting or chatting with other women online, no cheating not ever in 18 years?


none


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Hey my brother @Changecage - do you think your wife would trust you more if you gave up the porn- for her? Do you think it would improve your marriage and intimacy in general?

What’s stopping you from walking up to her and saying “I’m sorry... I’ll never watch porn again. I want our sex to be 100% between you and me.”.

Most men aren’t bad-oss enough to do that, let alone- live it.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Very ittle porn shows caring sex. How can it when they are acting.


Where to start. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that all or the vast majority of porn is all paid acting with no emotional enjoyment by those being video taped. I am sure there is some of that.

One can have caring sex with another, even if they are not married. There is porn out there that is done by amateurs who are lovers and video tape themselves or friends. There is also professionally made soft core porn. When I was in a sex starved marriage, the Sex Therapist who helped save my marriage loaned to us, during therapy, some Sinclair Institute "Better Sex" videos to watch and talk about as homework.

The Sex Therapist who helped us had had met and talked with professionally some of the "actors" within the Sinclair Institute videos. She told us that most were exhibitionists and really enjoyed sexually performing in public. It was very consensual for them.

The violent PORN that I talked about is probably not consensual and is probably not "acting," but a form of degradation for money. Prostitution is a form of providing sex in exchange for money or being exploited to exchange sex for money. I don't think of prostitutes as actors although the good ones probably do have acting skills. Porn stars may be members of an acting guild, but I at least don't think of them as actors. If they do think of themselves as actors, and they are any good they will try to feel the motivation of their characters to provide a better performance, in which case there is some consent involved in the on-screen sex. The other kind of gentler "porn" can be done for a variety of motivations. There are lots of people who make their own sex tapes.

We shall agree to disagree. I don't think that "all porn" is evil nor that all porn objectifies women.


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