# looking for a little hope



## bill wennington

Married nearly ten years, together seventeen. She left about a month ago, we haven't really talked about it. I was mad that she didn't show up for an event i expected her to be at, and i was acting pissy about it and told her to come home. She came home. She said "I want a divorce. I'm tired. I'm done. I'm not attracted to you anymore. (But you're still attractive.)" Yes, she did include that. She was angry. Clearly hurting. Said it was the hardest thing she'd ever done. Next day i called, begged her to talk to me, she agreed (to a neutral location, with her female friend present). Still angry. Repeated "I'm done. I'm tired." Said it had been over for her for a long time. In retrospect, she could have already been planning it, my being pissy that particular day could have pushed her over the edge. I knew something was wrong before i called and told her to come home. She had never just no-showed on me before. I'd been having some problems with anxiety and jealousy, basically being a big baby. Also alcoholism, which I've only just realized was that (specifically: she didn't like me when i drink. i knew this. Thus, alcohol led to problems. I drank anyway. Q.E.D. i'm me, and i'm an alcoholic. No violence or dependence or job loss or anything. Just annoying, inconsiderate, embarrassing.) But I had no idea things were that bad. Did not see this coming. I've been self-reflecting constantly since then, started therapy. Only begged and pleaded on the day she left and the day after. Since then, all contact has been initiated by her. I've seen her in person twice, and we've exchanged text messages two, maybe three times. Text messages have been strictly business. First in-person was really awkward - this was like four days after she left - but the second one was pleasant and civil. She seemed surprised that I was not pleading. I apologized for being drunk, selfish and jealous. She apologized for letting me think everything was ok for so long. She said thank you, and seemed to mean it. I said you're welcome and left. Haven't seen her since. Six days ago.

This weekend while i was away, she came and took all of her clothes and some other stuff. I expected it, she said she was going to. I expected it to hurt, and it does. I am reading into every little sign. Example: i moved most of our pictures together, mementos, etc. into a box because i couldn't look at them without almost breaking down. While she was getting her stuff, she took a clock that she made for me years ago down from high up on the wall and put it in the box. It required effort for her to get that clock, it was pretty high up. She could have just left it. And she kind of messed up the box. Looks like she may have been emotional at the time. Of course, I am desperate to find meaning in anything. I'm a wreck inside

The only thing i really understand is that she is not going to open up if i push on her. So i do not initiate contact. I do not ask friends or family to talk to her. I've only confided in a few close friends. I give her her space. And meanwhile, i go to therapy, figure out the demons behind my anxiety, stay sober, work on my friendships, try to stay busy, carry on with my life. And i barely sleep. Every day is a struggle of ups and downs. I find reason for optimism, then i find reason for pessimism. I come to a realization that will help me deal with my anxiety, then i find out that she changed her address.

I am doing the right things, to make myself whole and sane. So that i will be healthy when it's all over, whether we're back together or not. Now, what i want is back together. Is there any possibility here? Could her anger and frustration with me fade? Could time apart allow her to cool off, remember the good parts, see that i'm changing (as much as is possible with basically zero contact)? Could there be a spark left to rekindle? Or can she really have been done for literally years, pretending, very successfully, that nothing was wrong? Could i have been that oblivious? Such that even a month before, i had no idea?

Is it possible for me to salvage this? Is there a way to initiate some kind of talk? If there's anything there, i don't want to smother it, but i am also terrified that time itself will do me in.

Is there any hope for me?


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## EleGirl

No one here can tell you if there is hope to get back with her or not.

What there is hope for is that you have 100% control over you becoming a better version of yourself. Keep the course.


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## bill wennington

Thanks. Of course, you're right. And i'm 100% confident that i'll be a better version of myself. I'm already a better version of myself than i was a month ago. I'm a fast learner, once I get my head pointed in the right direction. I'm aware of my inner idiot and my alcoholism. I'm working on being more mindful and less selfish.

Eventually we'll get back together, or i'll get over it. I know this, logically. But it helps to vent, even to the internet. Therapy sessions do not come frequently enough.

I guess i'll browse and try to find stories of people with similar situations. Maybe i can find hope there. "better yourself" is good advice. I'd love more. Anecdotes, psychology, anything. Just feeling desperate right now.


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## Marc878

Read the 180 and follow it religiously. It's a no contact reference. If you chase it will always push then farther away. *Always!!!!* Most can't grasp that but you need to.

Your words are totally meaningless. Only your actions count now.

Alcoholism destroys everything as you've seen. I hope you realize you need to lay off the bottle.

Just to fully understand what you're dealing with you'd be wise to check your phone bill.


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## bill wennington

I think i'm already on this 180 - no contact - but is there an official document to read?


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## bill wennington

Phone bill looks normal. Nothing jumps out. No recent spikes in anything. Feel dirty looking, to be honest. Would the 180 entail me cancelling her cell phone? I admit, paying for it does sort of feel like holding out a lifeline.


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## bill wennington

And yes, i'm off the bottle, fwiw. That part will not be a problem. I haven't had a drop since a full week before she moved out (at which point, everything seemed fine to me anyway). Actions, yes. Words, no. Is why i haven't made contact. But it's very, very difficult. Overcoming anxiety and jealousy, those will be hard. Maybe harder if i start snooping around too much. But i think maybe you are giving me some tough love. If so, point taken. I will try not to be naive. My initial premise was that my jealousy was unfounded, borne of childhood issues and anxiety. It is not impossible that it is not unfounded. If that were the case, things would be different. Yet i have no proof, nor do i have the desire to go looking for it. What i want to find in myself is confidence and security. Toward her, i want to have forgiveness. I know neither of us are perfect. I just want to be the best man i can be, hopefully for her. And my current trajectory sounds like this 180 - give her the space she asked for. But it is so hard to not reach out. How do i manage that?


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## aine

bill wennington said:


> Married nearly ten years, together seventeen. She left about a month ago, we haven't really talked about it. I was mad that she didn't show up for an event i expected her to be at, and i was acting pissy about it and told her to come home. She came home. She said "I want a divorce. I'm tired. I'm done. I'm not attracted to you anymore. (But you're still attractive.)" Yes, she did include that. She was angry. Clearly hurting. Said it was the hardest thing she'd ever done. Next day i called, begged her to talk to me, she agreed (to a neutral location, with her female friend present). Still angry. Repeated "I'm done. I'm tired." Said it had been over for her for a long time. In retrospect, she could have already been planning it, my being pissy that particular day could have pushed her over the edge. I knew something was wrong before i called and told her to come home. She had never just no-showed on me before. I'd been having some problems with anxiety and jealousy, basically being a big baby. Also alcoholism, which I've only just realized was that (specifically: she didn't like me when i drink. i knew this. Thus, alcohol led to problems. I drank anyway. Q.E.D. i'm me, and i'm an alcoholic. No violence or dependence or job loss or anything. Just annoying, inconsiderate, embarrassing.) But I had no idea things were that bad. Did not see this coming. I've been self-reflecting constantly since then, started therapy. Only begged and pleaded on the day she left and the day after. Since then, all contact has been initiated by her. I've seen her in person twice, and we've exchanged text messages two, maybe three times. Text messages have been strictly business. First in-person was really awkward - this was like four days after she left - but the second one was pleasant and civil. She seemed surprised that I was not pleading. I apologized for being drunk, selfish and jealous. She apologized for letting me think everything was ok for so long. She said thank you, and seemed to mean it. I said you're welcome and left. Haven't seen her since. Six days ago.
> 
> This weekend while i was away, she came and took all of her clothes and some other stuff. I expected it, she said she was going to. I expected it to hurt, and it does. I am reading into every little sign. Example: i moved most of our pictures together, mementos, etc. into a box because i couldn't look at them without almost breaking down. While she was getting her stuff, she took a clock that she made for me years ago down from high up on the wall and put it in the box. It required effort for her to get that clock, it was pretty high up. She could have just left it. And she kind of messed up the box. Looks like she may have been emotional at the time. Of course, I am desperate to find meaning in anything. I'm a wreck inside
> 
> The only thing i really understand is that she is not going to open up if i push on her. So i do not initiate contact. I do not ask friends or family to talk to her. I've only confided in a few close friends. I give her her space. And meanwhile, i go to therapy, figure out the demons behind my anxiety, stay sober, work on my friendships, try to stay busy, carry on with my life. And i barely sleep. Every day is a struggle of ups and downs. I find reason for optimism, then i find reason for pessimism. I come to a realization that will help me deal with my anxiety, then i find out that she changed her address.
> 
> I am doing the right things, to make myself whole and sane. So that i will be healthy when it's all over, whether we're back together or not. Now, what i want is back together. Is there any possibility here? Could her anger and frustration with me fade? Could time apart allow her to cool off, remember the good parts, see that i'm changing (as much as is possible with basically zero contact)? Could there be a spark left to rekindle? Or can she really have been done for literally years, pretending, very successfully, that nothing was wrong? Could i have been that oblivious? Such that even a month before, i had no idea?
> 
> Is it possible for me to salvage this? Is there a way to initiate some kind of talk? If there's anything there, i don't want to smother it, but i am also terrified that time itself will do me in.
> 
> Is there any hope for me?


Bill, I am sorry, this is heart breaking but I suspect you broke her heart a long time ago by taking her for granted. Alcohol abuse creates havoc with those closest to you, I am sure she told you after every incident how she felt, how she didn't want you to do that anymore and hurt her anymore, she screamed at you, ranted at you and you felt justified in digging in your heels, you didn't have a problem, she was being unreasonable, lacked understanding, you had stress at work etc. Well this is the end result.

You cannot win her back, she stayed how long? Instead of focusing on her and winning her back it is now time to face yourself and your own demons, why do you depend on alcohol? Why do you think it is ok to treat the love of your life badly. She probably held it together because the next day all was bright again in your world you forgot the storm and the damage from the night before.

Work on yourself, tell her to go to al-anon (she will have demons of her own to deal with). Leave the marriage be for now, try and become the best man you can be. She may eventually see the change in you but she has got promises from you before and you broke them why should this time be any different? You have to show her by getting yourself sorted out first and that will take time, a lot of time. You should also join AA to get on the right path and Soberrecovery.com to talk to others who are on your journey.


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## bill wennington

aine, i see where you are coming from. That is good advice. I suspect i did break her heart long ago. She did tell me that she didn't like me when i was that way. She didn't scream, though. Just seemed... disappointed. And yes, i rationalized. Every time. I'm afraid you're right that i can't win her back. Why did i drink? It was fun. I like to party. My therapist suggests it was to cope, although i never felt that way, but maybe my perspective is skewed. I did like to enjoy some beer after work. As far as treating the love of my life badly... yes, i did that. And i was too selfish to consider the fact that i would stop drinking for weeks for all kinds of sporting events but never for the simple fact that she didn't like it. I can see that that would break her heart. I wish with everything i am that i had come to that realization sooner.

But I'm not going to tell her to go to al-anon, although that may be a good idea. I don't think it's for me to do that, at this point. (edit: i mean - i don't think she wants to hear that from me right now. maybe someone else. not me.)


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## Marc878

bill wennington said:


> I think i'm already on this 180 - no contact - but is there an official document to read?


Consolidated discussion: The No Contact Guide and No Contact process and experience - LoveShack.org Community Forums


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## Marc878

bill wennington said:


> And yes, i'm off the bottle, fwiw. That part will not be a problem. I haven't had a drop since a full week before she moved out (at which point, everything seemed fine to me anyway). Actions, yes. Words, no. Is why i haven't made contact. But it's very, very difficult. Overcoming anxiety and jealousy, those will be hard. Maybe harder if i start snooping around too much. But i think maybe you are giving me some tough love. If so, point taken. I will try not to be naive. My initial premise was that my jealousy was unfounded, borne of childhood issues and anxiety. It is not impossible that it is not unfounded. If that were the case, things would be different. Yet i have no proof, nor do i have the desire to go looking for it. What i want to find in myself is confidence and security. Toward her, i want to have forgiveness. I know neither of us are perfect. I just want to be the best man i can be, hopefully for her. And my current trajectory sounds like this 180 - give her the space she asked for. *But it is so hard to not reach out. How do i manage that?*


Crying, begging and pleading as well as pestering contact will make her more distant if thats possible at this time. She didn't get where she is overnight so this won't change quickly if it does. You work on yourself for you not her. 

Think of it like this. If you knew that if you contacted her again shed file for divorce immediately and never look back. Would you do it?

If she wants to speak let her call you.


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## Marc878

I'm assuming no kids?


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## bill wennington

Cool, thanks. Yes, that is essentially what i'm doing, although i completely hate it. Similar advice has been given to me by friends and other internets. i sure as heck am not waiting for a 180 from her in the form of an apology - i am not the one who deserves one (although, sometimes, as i cycle through emotions, i am mad that she "let me think everything was ok for so long". ultimately, i'm willing to let that slide). if she were to go 180, it would be "hey, i'm sorry i let you think everything was ok for so long, i believe you can change and i'm willing to give it a shot"... o look, an apology. crap. hmm. Yeah, i don't expect it. But the only way for us to reconcile is for her to give me that shot. Which i can't make her do. I think really what i'm looking for is someone to say, hey, man, it's possible, if unlikely. That, and advice on how to keep myself sane while attempting to move on. "LC" will have to happen at some point. That will be hard, too.

You are right. No begging, no crying, no pleading. If she wants to speak, i will welcome it. I will not initiate it. I work on myself. It's kind of satisfying. Until, 11pm when i can't stop dwelling and can't sleep. And yes, no kids.

Thanks, Marc. You are motivating me to stay strong. Whatever happens, i will survive, and be better for it. If she decides to give me another chance - and i just can't seem to let that hope die yet - then she will, and i'll make the most of it. If she doesn't, well, at least i'll be sober and know how to deal with my anxiety. Eventually.


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## Marc878

You need to understand you can't make anyone do anything. All you can do is fix yourself as much as possible. Trying to change your behavior is tough but living the way you were will be tougher. Look what it got you. These changes need to be lifetime changes not temporary just to try and impress her or get her back. This needs to be for you and your future whatever that maybe.


It might be a good idea to set up an appointment with an attorney and see what your rights are in a divorce.

Do you know if she's filed or has contacted an attorney?


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## bill wennington

Yes. This, i realize. I cannot control what she does or feels. I cannot control how she interprets my words or actions. I can only control my own actions.

I suspect reining in my anxiety and jealousy will be a lifetime effort. And i will be tempted to drink again, no doubt. And i will always have to be mindful, and try not to be selfish. These are good things, with her or without her. I want to say i'm doing them for myself. I am, in a way, as I know they will benefit me. But currently, with this hope that i have not yet let go, i cannot with true honesty say that they are not at all intended to get her back. Until i actually don't want her back, or have truly let her go, this will be the case. Everything goes through that lens right now.

I have an appointment with an attorney in a few weeks. I do not know where she is with that.


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## Marc878

bill wennington said:


> Cool, thanks. Yes, that is essentially what i'm doing, although i completely hate it. Similar advice has been given to me by friends and other internets. i sure as heck am not waiting for a 180 from her in the form of an apology - i am not the one who deserves one (although, sometimes, as i cycle through emotions, *i am mad that she "let me think everything was ok for so long".* ultimately, i'm willing to let that slide). if she were to go 180, it would be "hey, i'm sorry i let you think everything was ok for so long, i believe you can change and i'm willing to give it a shot"... o look, an apology. crap. hmm. Yeah, i don't expect it. But the only way for us to reconcile is for her to give me that shot. Which i can't make her do. I think really what i'm looking for is someone to say, hey, man, it's possible, if unlikely. That, and advice on how to keep myself sane while attempting to move on. "LC" will have to happen at some point. That will be hard, too.
> 
> You are right. No begging, no crying, no pleading. If she wants to speak, i will welcome it. I will not initiate it. I work on myself. It's kind of satisfying. Until, 11pm when i can't stop dwelling and can't sleep. And yes, no kids.
> 
> Thanks, Marc. You are motivating me to stay strong. Whatever happens, i will survive, and be better for it. If she decides to give me another chance - and i just can't seem to let that hope die yet - then she will, and i'll make the most of it. If she doesn't, well, at least i'll be sober and know how to deal with my anxiety. Eventually.


I get it to a point but from what you've posted you aren't the victim here. So don't set in that chair. Try putting this on her will go over like a lead balloon.

Good men know when they screw up and own it. 

Everyone is different. I'm sure you knew she was disappointed in your actions and yet you didn't try and correct yourself until she walked out. 

It maybe too late, it may not, only time will tell. Her collecting all her things is not a good sign.


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## bill wennington

Yeah, i'm definitely not bringing that up. Just venting a thought that floats by occasionally. I am not the victim, for sure.

I knew she was disappointed in the drinking, yet i continued it. That's alcoholism. I never would have considered labeling myself that before, but that's what it is. And you're right, her walkout was a wakeup call, for sure. Futile to wish the wakeup call had been less harsh. I knew my being jealous was wearing on her - it was wearing on me, and i hated myself for it. I did not want to be that whiny little boy. And yet, i tried to bottle it up, hide it. She could see it. I should have been in therapy long ago. 

I agree, I am surrounded by bad signs. But i can't help to look for good ones. Or even ask for them outright on forums where i should know better. Good advice is probably worth more in the long run, anyway, so thanks.

The silver lining, i suppose, is that i'll come out of this a better man. Unfortunate that the silver lining comes after a storm that wrecks your house.


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## Marc878

Unfortunately all you can do at this time is work hard on yourself and wait. Not a great position to be in but you put yourself there. 

Learn from that.

It sounds like she hasn't filed yet or you'd have papers by now.

The good thing is you cut off the needy, clingy act fairly quickly. She knows you're there to talk if she wants.

Although it doesn't look good you never know how these things can turn out.

If she does want to talk. LISTEN!!!!! Don't get over anxious and overwhelm her. Let her lead.


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## Marc878

IN the future learn that you can never control anyone but yourself. That doesn't mean you become a doormat

You seem to know what your issues are which is a good first step.


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## bill wennington

Marc878 said:


> Unfortunately all you can do at this time is work hard on yourself and wait. Not a great position to be in but you put yourself there.
> 
> Learn from that.
> 
> It sounds like she hasn't filed yet or you'd have papers by now.
> 
> The good thing is you cut of the needy, clingy act fairly quickly. She knows you're there to talk if she wants.
> 
> Although it doesn't look good *you never know how these things can turn out.*
> 
> If she does want to talk. LISTEN!!!!! Don't get over anxious and overwhelm her. Let her lead.


Thanks. That's what i was looking for. Yes, it looks terrible, especially in my saner moments. I think my best-case scenario is that she slows down and says, wait, i went from pretending to be ok to divorce in the span of a few hours, maybe we should at least talk about these problems first. Again - i realize i can't control that; i can only work on myself. Is this an irrational hope?


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## farsidejunky

Bill, get the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s. 

You need to find your center, establish your principles, and then live by them. 

From a fellow alcoholic, all the alcohol did was allow you to avoid the things that brought you pain.

When you identify the things that are important to you, then prioritize your life based upon them, not only will you inevitably surround yourself with the right people, but you will truly begin to love them person in the mirror. He probably doesn't look too good to you right about now.

Also, read this:

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

Realize your roles, and strive to exit the triangle. It is the only emotionally healthy place to be. There will be more to follow, but let's start with the aforementioned reading assignments.

Sorry you are here, brother.


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## Marc878

In any good marriage it should be balanced @ 50/50. Did you pull your load? 

Make sure the home is as clean and uncluttered as you can. You don't want her walking in and finding a huge mess just in case. Plus it says I can do this on my own if I have to.

I'm sure you've got this now but drinking maybe fun for you but for others having to watch it. Not so much. Be aware of how your actions affect others. 

Good luck, you have much work to do. Make it as positive as you can. You are building a better future for yourself here. Don't forget that.


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## bill wennington

I have that book! I read it in its entirety this past Wednesday. I think it's great advice. I have not had proper, meaningful relationships with other men for a long time. Really, my only great relationship (well, i thought it was great) was with my wife. Which i now realize is not the healthiest place to be. Queue anxiety and jealousy when she goes out with friends (when i said i was acting like a little boy, that's the one i need to silence). I think having unalterable principles by which i live my life is a great idea. 

Reading the other now. Thanks!


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## bill wennington

Marc878 said:


> In any good marriage it should be balanced @ 50/50. Did you pull your load?
> 
> Make sure the home is as clean and uncluttered as you can. You don't want her walking in and finding a huge mess just in case. Plus it says I can do this on my own if I have to.


On the marriage front... let's go with no, i did not pull my load. Aside from drinking and jealousy, i was selfish. I think all three of these go together. I was a good husband in terms of the things i'm good at. In terms of other things, things that required me to step out of my comfort zone, or even just not be lazy after a day's work, i would minimize. By which i mean i would divert less effort to them in favor of focusing on my strengths. Want to go dancing? Insert excuse here. Let's go shopping. Who wants to go shopping with someone who stands around looking bored? So my weaknesses were never improved. I'd do some housework now and then, laundry, maybe grill burgers or something. But 50/50? No, i left most of that to her, with the rationale that she only works four hours a day. Sounds like a BS excuse for a man to say.

Now that she's gone, ironically, the house looks great. I have kept it very clean. Turns out it's easy, if i just get off my ass. So, when she came to get her stuff, the floors were shiny, the counters were clear, the dishes were clean. The trash was empty, the bed was made. It's satisfying, actually. Yet another thing i should have been doing for years. And these habits will serve me well when i finally give up hope. I feel like i had so much potential, and instead of realizing it, i took her, and everything else, for granted. It hurts more because as you say, i dug this hole for myself. I'll dig myself out eventually, but she may not be waiting for me at the top. I hate this possibility, but i know it's the most likely.


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## TBT

This is not really advice per se,but more of an observation about being sober after some time has passed. You'll find that you'll be able to think clearer and start reflecting more on past choices and whether or not they were right for you and that includes relationship choices. That's not to say that you weren't wrong in whatever you did that was a detriment to your marriage,but more along the lines of was it the right fit in the first place. Anyway,I wish you well whichever way things turn out for you.


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## bill wennington

farsidejunky said:


> From a fellow alcoholic, all the alcohol did was allow you to avoid the things that brought you pain.


So, this alcoholic revelation/admission is new for me. I'm still not used to it. But it means a lot to hear the works "fellow alcoholic". Helps to not feel alone. Thanks.


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## bill wennington

... however, i'm not sure what things i was avoiding. My therapist suggested it was a means of coping, to "turn off" after work, which admittedly is difficult for me. So after work i'd retreat to video games or, if it's Friday, beer. But maybe i was avoiding relationship stuff. Intimacy, maybe, due to anxiety and little-boy temper-tantrums. I have certainly not been the man i envisioned myself. I'll have to go to more therapy to figure that out.


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## bill wennington

TBT said:


> This is not really advice per se,but more of an observation about being sober after some time has passed. You'll find that you'll be able to think clearer and start reflecting more on past choices and whether or not they were right for you and that includes relationship choices. That's not to say that you weren't wrong in whatever you did that was a detriment to your marriage,but more along the lines of was it the right fit in the first place. Anyway,I wish you well whichever way things turn out for you.


Yes. So, thirty days and counting. Which is not a record by any stretch. The difference, now, is that i have no intention of having a beer to celebrate my next race. But when i said to myself "i am done drinking" the day after she left me, i meant it. And I felt relieved. Empowered. Free to never let her down like that again. And, free of hangovers and embarrassing stories. I get that time will tell if it sticks. So far, so good. And then to realize (or admit) this morning, sitting in the airport, that yes, i'm an alcoholic, was empowering again. Because now i recognize something that she must have recognized a long time ago, and now i can finally improve that aspect of myself. I'm sad that I was unable to internalize it earlier.

I guess enough time hasn't passed yet for me to wonder "was the marriage the right fit". Ask me now and the answer is a resounding yes, at least from my point of view. It was the right fit, and i sure did screw it up. Maybe i'll change my mind, in time, but that won't change the fact that i did screw it up.


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## Marc878

I'm not a big fan of writing stupid letters pouring your heart out and begging for forgiveness but you are in a tight spot here. You don't want to contact her but you need to her know where you are, etc.

It might be a good idea to put together your reflections on the past and what you're doing to correct them (long term). Again this is for you not necessarily her. *You want to be a better man for yourself.*

It should be factual and have some meat to it. No bull**** whinny/pinny mushy crap. There is nothing wrong with adding your feelings about her but do not try and put anything on her!!!!!! Own your ****!!!

You might want to say something along the lines of I get your position and if you're not interested in letting me show you what I can become I understand. Let her know where you stand, etc.

If you go this route spend a week on it. Write it down let it sit for a day and edit until you get it right. Don't rush!!!!! 

PS: getting off your lazy ass is a good thing !!!!


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## bill wennington

Thanks Marc. That idea has some appeal. A friend suggested it, too. I've written and discarded a few already. So yeah, i'll take at least a week to write it. I also want to talk about it with my therapist. I don't want to sound clingy, or begging, or manipulative. I know I can overcome my problems, and change, and here's what i'm doing. I've written that to myself dozens of times already, and I believe it. But I'm not the one I've been letting down for years. I don't know if she is willing to entertain the notion. Hardened heart, and all that. I do think she has love for me in some form, I could see it when she was angry, and last time I saw her... that or I was imagining it. But I think I still know her pretty well, I don't think she'd have been mad if she no longer cared. But she can't let me hurt her any more, and may not be willing to open up, and I cannot blame her for that. I have to make the changes anyway. I tell myself that she must have been holding out hope for some time, right? Maybe I can help her realize that hope.

But no. The only thing I can do is work on myself. That is the only thing I can really work toward. Everything else is wishful thinking. If it's done to get her back, then it's not sufficient. As desperate as I am to fix everything, this cannot be rushed.


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## aine

bill wennington said:


> Cool, thanks. Yes, that is essentially what i'm doing, although i completely hate it. Similar advice has been given to me by friends and other internets. i sure as heck am not waiting for a 180 from her in the form of an apology - i am not the one who deserves one (although, sometimes, as i cycle through emotions, i am mad that she "let me think everything was ok for so long". ultimately, i'm willing to let that slide). if she were to go 180, it would be "hey, i'm sorry i let you think everything was ok for so long, i believe you can change and i'm willing to give it a shot"... o look, an apology. crap. hmm. Yeah, i don't expect it. But the only way for us to reconcile is for her to give me that shot. Which i can't make her do. I think really what i'm looking for is someone to say, hey, man, it's possible, if unlikely. That, and advice on how to keep myself sane while attempting to move on. "LC" will have to happen at some point. That will be hard, too.
> 
> You are right. No begging, no crying, no pleading. If she wants to speak, i will welcome it. I will not initiate it. I work on myself. It's kind of satisfying. Until, 11pm when i can't stop dwelling and can't sleep. And yes, no kids.
> 
> Thanks, Marc. You are motivating me to stay strong. Whatever happens, i will survive, and be better for it. If she decides to give me another chance - and i just can't seem to let that hope die yet - then she will, and i'll make the most of it. If she doesn't, well, at least i'll be sober and know how to deal with my anxiety. Eventually.


Bill, anything is possible. I was in such a marriage with an alcoholic H who has now been dry for 13 months and still counting. When you commit to changing yourself and becoming a better man anything is possible. 
However, some things you say indicate that you are not there and are not taking full responsibility, particularly 'she let me think everything was ok', deep down you knew it was not ok, just that she took it and you exploited her love for you, you abused your position with her.
It was never ok to treat someone badly when you have been drinking, it is never ok to get up the next day and pretend that all is ok, rug sweep that incident and move on, eventually there is too much dirt under the carpet and you trip over it and people reach their limit.

You know this, stop telling yourself that this was unexpected. You knew, but because she didn't fight and cry you took it as acceptance from her though you knew what you were doing was wrong. This is the first step to owning your ****. Until you own your ****, you will never be in a place to recover and heal. I know what I am talking about because my H did exactly the same thing, blamed me for not taking more aggressive measures to let him know I was done, I had to kick him out of the house.

Surely you are not that obtuse, you knew what you were doing to her, own it and accept it.


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## Marc878

Right now would be a good time to get a hobby, outside interest, etc so you don't wrap yourself up in a one dimensional life.

Take cooking classes, anything to developed yourself.


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## bill wennington

aine said:


> Bill, anything is possible. I was in such a marriage with an alcoholic H who has now been dry for 13 months and still counting. When you commit to changing yourself and becoming a better man anything is possible.
> However, some things you say indicate that you are not there and are not taking full responsibility, particularly 'she let me think everything was ok', deep down you knew it was not ok, just that she took it and you exploited her love for you, you abused your position with her.
> It was never ok to treat someone badly when you have been drinking, it is never ok to get up the next day and pretend that all is ok, rug sweep that incident and move on, eventually there is too much dirt under the carpet and you trip over it and people reach their limit.
> 
> You know this, stop telling yourself that this was unexpected. You knew, but because she didn't fight and cry you took it as acceptance from her though you knew what you were doing was wrong. This is the first step to owning your ****. Until you own your ****, you will never be in a place to recover and heal. I know what I am talking about because my H did exactly the same thing, blamed me for not taking more aggressive measures to let him know I was done, I had to kick him out of the house.
> 
> Surely you are not that obtuse, you knew what you were doing to her, own it and accept it.


Thanks, aine. Not all of my thoughts are rational right now - I go up and down on an hourly basis. I did know I was doing some things wrong. I knew the drinking bothered her. And I knew the jealousy bothered her. And I didn't stop, and I didn't get help. And I think, yes - at least with the booze - that I did take it as acceptance. A flaw she could live with. Did I treat her badly when I was drinking? I never thought of it that way. No yelling, no violence, no fighting. But I guess... I still wasn't the man she thought I should have been, and I didn't do anything about it, so... I thought the jealous, suspicious feelings would just go away, eventually, they always did. Yes. Acceptance. That's how I saw it. Yeah, this is my thing, and she deals with it because she loves me. Perfectly normal, I thought. Wow. Yeah, I was wrong for sure.

I did see it as acceptance. I guess I expected an ultimatum, or something. Or at least escalating unacceptance. Which doesn't change anything - I knew I was doing it wrong and didn't change. And it took her leaving for me to realize something was really wrong. I think yes, I am a little obtuse. I did not consider that she would go from that directly to this. Then again, I didn't consider a lot of things. Now i'm left with nothing but time to consider. I appreciate your perspective. Now I feel worse about what I did  which is probably a step in the right direction. So thank you.

When she said it last week - "i'm sorry I let you think everything was ok for so long" - I said "i get it, it's hard to tell someone something they don't want to hear" and dropped it. I really don't think any of this is her fault. It was me screwing up, it was on me to wake up and stop. Do I wish I had realized it earlier? Of course. But I didn't, and now it's on me to learn from this. I accept that. I want to accept that it's over. But so far, every time I get close to that "this is really, really over" moment, I think of, grasp at, imagine, some tiny shred of hope.


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## bill wennington

Marc878 said:


> Right now would be a good time to get a hobby, outside interest, etc so you don't wrap yourself up in a one dimensional life.
> 
> Take cooking classes, anything to developed yourself.


Thanks. That's a great idea. I never liked cooking. Now I need to do it, and it would be nice if I could partake more fully in that part of a relationship in the future.

Honestly my life is pretty great outside of this. I have a good job with good people. I'm a competitive athlete, so I always have something happening. And it's another good reason not to drink, for what that's worth. And that circle, focusing on training and practice, has been very helpful to me during this time. I've been doing more woodworking, playing more guitar, to keep myself from being idle... but those are solitary activities, and they leave me with room for an emotional rollercoaster. A cooking class, or things of that nature, would get me out, talking to people, which would help with my anxiety. So thanks, I think i'll do that.


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## anchorwatch

bill wennington said:


> So, this alcoholic revelation/admission is new for me. I'm still not used to it. But it means a lot to hear the works "fellow alcoholic". Helps to not feel alone. Thanks.


You are not alone. 

AA or AA (Great Britain) 

Don't walk this path alone. Just saying...


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## bill wennington

bill wennington said:


> ...


Allow me to condense myself, and leave no room for excuses: I knew, and I didn't change. This is my fault.

Thanks, everyone. This has helped a lot. I was actually able to sleep for four hours last night. Usually these days I have to work myself up to some unrealistic optimism, or run my body into the ground to get to sleep. But today - I don't feel optimistic about her changing her mind. I have more of myself to come to terms with than I thought. But I feel good that i'm learning that.


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## farsidejunky

bill wennington said:


> But when i said to myself "i am done drinking" the day after she left me, i meant it. And I felt relieved. Empowered. Free to never let *her* down like that again.


If the bolded above is the person for whom you have quit, you will certainly fail.


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## farsidejunky

Bill, in what sport do you compete?

How often do you train?


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## Marc878

Learn to cook one good meal first. If the opportunity comes you can invite her over for dinner. 

I learned @ 6 years ago. It's very enjoyable. Start off simple. Work your way up.

Far is correct. Your improvements have to be for yourself. And permanent


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## bill wennington

Marc878 said:


> Learn to cook one good meal first. If the opportunity comes you can invite her over for dinner.
> 
> I learned @ 6 years ago. It's very enjoyable. Start off simple. Work your way up.
> 
> Far is correct. Your improvements have to be for yourself. And permanent


Yeah, I was going to ask for clarification, but it was I who was unclear. Free to not let drinking ruin another relationship. I'm still focused on this one, and that comes through in my choice of words.

I don't think I can say I'm *only* changing for myself until I really let this one go.


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## bill wennington

farsidejunky said:


> Bill, in what sport do you compete?
> 
> How often do you train?


Can I avoid answering to maintain anonymity? I train six days a week.


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## Marc878

OMG!!!

He's a Sumo wrestler!!!


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## bill wennington

Marc878 said:


> OMG!!!
> 
> He's a Sumo wrestler!!!


Hey, man, the internets are a scary place.


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## Evinrude58

There's always hope, but I think the best possibility here would be months or likely years down the road, if at all.
Someone needs (I haven't read every post) to tell you that most likely she is gone forever and you should plan that way. Do your best to make yourself the person you always wanted to be, live your life, and if she comes back that's good.
You are doing the right thing in not chasing her. If you do you will drive her away and the chance of her loving you again is zero. Negative chance if that's possible.

You need to know that she is not the only one on the planet, and that if you mess things up with this one, you can always fix yourself and find another. I know that's not what you want, but we don't always get what we want. It's just life.

ACCEPT that she is gone and isn't returning. If you want a chance with her, give yourself a time frame for her to return. At the end of that time frame when you've got your life like you want it, ask her if she'd consider giving you another chance. If she says no, start dating and never look back.

I should say that once a woman falls out of love, I have personally never seen it return. So hope, yes. Lots, NO. Just realism, not pessimism.

Btw, if you start dating other women, she will find out and you have no chance at all.
You likely won't be ready to date mentally, anyway. I personally think you should give it a year and if she's not interested then, start dating other women. 
I really think she's gone. I just hate to tell you that since you're looking for hope--- I believe that hope will keep you in limbo and drive you nuts, but it's your show.
I do wish you luck.


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## farsidejunky

bill wennington said:


> Can I avoid answering to maintain anonymity? I train six days a week.


No worries.

My main concern was that you are training...exercising...challenging your body, mind, and spirit.

Exercise carried me through the first tedious months of sobriety in early 2014. About 14 months ago, I moved from lifting and kickboxing to jiu jitsu, and have been competing about once every month or two since last summer. 

Jiu jitsu has literally been my place of peace in my challenges within myself, marriage, and life in general. It sounds like your regimen does the same for you. There is something cleansing about the pain and rigor of exercise.


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## bill wennington

Evinrude58 said:


> There's always hope, but I think the best possibility here would be months or likely years down the road, if at all.
> Someone needs (I haven't read every post) to tell you that most likely she is gone forever and you should plan that way. Do your best to make yourself the person you always wanted to be, live your life, and if she comes back that's good.
> You are doing the right thing in not chasing her. If you do you will drive her away and the chance of her loving you again is zero. Negative chance if that's possible.
> 
> You need to know that she is not the only one on the planet, and that if you mess things up with this one, you can always fix yourself and find another. I know that's not what you want, but we don't always get what we want. It's just life.
> 
> ACCEPT that she is gone and isn't returning. If you want a chance with her, give yourself a time frame for her to return. At the end of that time frame when you've got your life like you want it, ask her if she'd consider giving you another chance. If she says no, start dating and never look back.
> 
> I should say that once a woman falls out of love, I have personally never seen it return. So hope, yes. Lots, NO. Just realism, not pessimism.
> 
> Btw, if you start dating other women, she will find out and you have no chance at all.
> You likely won't be ready to date mentally, anyway. I personally think you should give it a year and if she's not interested then, start dating other women.
> I really think she's gone. I just hate to tell you that since you're looking for hope--- I believe that hope will keep you in limbo and drive you nuts, but it's your show.
> I do wish you luck.


Thanks. This is good. If I can't hope for this relationship, I can hope for the next one.


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