# on understanding



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.

One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?

My husband sometimes does this. Today I was annoyed. We have long had a disagreement over... drum roll please... housekeeping standards. The actual argument is irrelevant. We resolve it as best we can. But the most recent annoyance was that he wants me to keep a certain standard. There are things I ask him to do that are difficult for me to do, particularly now when I am not supposed to lift or represent technology that I no longer know as much about. He doesn't do them. I ask. I send a note. I write a list. He ignores them. So he wants me to do these things, but is unwilling to aid me in small things that would facilitate. (Forget my picking up after him. When I am not cranky at him anyway, I don't even mind that.) All of this is par for the course, we work it out. It is just background to nature of my annoyance.

So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?

Can't it be exactly what I just said? That the last TWENTY freaking small things that you SAID you would do for me you didn't do?

I am less bothered by the lack of doing than the failure to listen to me. To assume I am having some dramatic issue. No. I want you to ****ING LISTEN TO ME AND HEAR WHAT I SAY not determine I have a mental illness because I spoke to you about something that has me slightly annoyed.

I think that is why when the Men's Clubhouse folk go on about not listening to women because they are clueless, I want to scream. Simple communication is only simple when both parties can LISTEN and not just talk.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

"I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?"

SO, SO, SO TRUE for me as well and my husband does do similar things to what yours did above. I think it's an easy way out and a belief that has been promoted by men (and so sadly, women) as an excuse for many reasons. 

Men use it so that they don't have to feel obligated to think about what is actually going on and women use it as an excuse to not own up to their behavior.

It's frustrating!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I am reasonably certain that my husband is not trying to get away from thinking about it. I am about 120% certain he genuinely wants to understand what is going on in my head. I KNOW for a FACT that he is highly motivated to make me happy. I have seen it time and time again. And I know he doesn't think, in the philosophical sense, that women don't know what they mean/need. 

It is truly inexplicable to me.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I am reasonably certain that my husband is not trying to get away from thinking about it. I am about 120% certain he genuinely wants to understand what is going on in my head. I KNOW for a FACT that he is highly motivated to make me happy. I have seen it time and time again. And I know he doesn't think, in the philosophical sense, that women don't know what they mean/need.
> 
> It is truly inexplicable to me.


All of what you say can be true and yet if your husband is tired or feels frustrated it can come in to play as an excuse he doesn't realize he's using as an excuse. My husband is similar to yours in that I know he also does want to understand me and knows that I am capable of knowing what I think and feel and expressing it but if we are having an argument or he's having a bad day, falling back on something like this is something he will do.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

to me its like when im talking and the response is constant head nodding, and after every second word yea.. yea..

I DIDNT LIKE THE WAY THAT CONVERSTAION WENT TODAY
head nod head nod--yea yea--head nod head nod--yea yea

how is that listening to me!!?????


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## mentallydrained (Oct 7, 2010)

Do you find the true listening started after several years off settling in the marriage? 

I feel the older we get, the more we settle into our marriage, the less men listen..I mean truly listen. And, I see there is more analyzing than anyting, at least with what I'm familiar too. And the analyzing creates even more frusteration as now you have to re-explain what wasn't heard the first time in different context which in turn again....doesn't get heard.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I think he is really trying to listen to me. There is some kind of like mind block.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.)


Oh, contraire VT, it is a subset of a love language. Your remarks lead me to believe your LL is very similar to my wife's. While reading Chapman I struggled with understanding hers. I knew what it wasn't but not what it was. 

IMHO you are describing Words of Affirmation. My wife doesn't require a lot of "I love you, you look wonderful, you're a great mother" but she does need to be valued. And just as important, she needs to be heard. As many men are, I am wired to "fix things" when someone presents a problem. (Problem?? = Do this, this and this. Next!!) But fixing things is not what she wants when she vents about work, a friend or the kids. She wants to be understood and shown that I support her and value her. Words of affirmation don't have to be romantic in nature. A simple, "I understand", "You're right", or "So what you are saying is......" can speak volumes to my wife. Sometimes it doesn't have to be verbal at all. A simple nod, hug or consistent eye contact is what tells her I value and respect her and that I am listening. She has my undivided attention and I care.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Amp, dollars gets you donuts you are right. For all the good it does me! Luckily this is so infrequently an issue as to not be a big deal.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.
> 
> One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?
> 
> ...


Pardon me, Ladies...

VT - I think the listening you refer to in the Men's Clubhouse and your Husband's apparent lack of listening are two different things.

The discussions in the clubhouse center around some high level concepts about differences in gender roles. Part of the idea being that some people aren't aware of, or won't admit to, the games people play.

A husband not adhering to a Honey-do list may just have other things on his mind. And if you've recently had surgery, he's probably/hopefully doing a bit more than normal.

Me - personally - when my wife is giving me a verbal list - I start to zone her out around #3. I'm either just not going to remember the entire list, or other stuff will come up and I won't get to it all. Sometimes I will even try to stop her at number 3 and ask her to give me the list in writing - but she usually keeps going.

If this is something new for him, then maybe he's just a bit overwhelmed at the moment.

If this is something he's always done, why expect him to change now?

Just my 2 cents.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Pardon me, Ladies...
> 
> VT - I think the listening you refer to in the Men's Clubhouse and your Husband's apparent lack of listening are two different things.


Please don't mistake me for inditing the entire Men's Clubhouse! 




> The discussions in the clubhouse center around some high level concepts about differences in gender roles. Part of the idea being that some people aren't aware of, or won't admit to, the games people play.


At least you have the good grace to say "people" instead of "women". But that is not the content to which I am referring.




> A husband not adhering to a Honey-do list may just have other things on his mind. And if you've recently had surgery, he's probably/hopefully doing a bit more than normal.
> 
> Me - personally - when my wife is giving me a verbal list - I start to zone her out around #3. I'm either just not going to remember the entire list, or other stuff will come up and I won't get to it all. Sometimes I will even try to stop her at number 3 and ask her to give me the list in writing - but she usually keeps going.


It did not play like that though that is not even the crux of my issue. The issue is interpreting my annoyance as something other than what I tell him it is about and searching his mind for answers when the answer is before him.



> If this is something new for him, then maybe he's just a bit overwhelmed at the moment.
> 
> If this is something he's always done, why expect him to change now?


Which part? Wanting him to listen to me? God only knows because it is never going to happen. The chores I could give two sh!ts about.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Don't you know the only way you are going to be "listened" to in the Men's Clubhouse is if you are murmuring while wearing high heels, nipple clamps, holding two mugs of beer, all while laying on your back.
Otherwise, you're just one of those evil women who doesn't belong there. Tsk, Tsk, VT. This isn't your first rodeo, is it?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.
> 
> One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?
> 
> ...


You DO sound really annoyed at his recent track-record of getting things done.

If HIS behavior is consistent (has he always done about half of what you ask), but YOUR reaction is different (suddenly calling him out on what he isn't doing), then it will leave him wondering what has changed.

And in "our" defense - I've heard many women blame a lot of emotional distress and misunderstandings on hormones, periods, menopause, PPD, etc. If you ladies don't want US questioning these mysterious "hormones", then please don't throw them out as potential causes when it suits your side of the argument.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> You DO sound really annoyed at his recent track-record of getting things done.


I am annoyed to be sure. This is a small irritant compared to having it waved away in favor of all sorts of other possible reasons for me to be "acting this way".



> If HIS behavior is consistent (has he always done about half of what you ask),


Doing what I ASK is not required or expected. Doing what he SAYS he will do, and then not doing it is the thing that irritates me. I can't do that is a perfectly good answer for me.



> but YOUR reaction is different (suddenly calling him out on what he isn't doing), then it will leave him wondering what has changed.


I sure isn't sudden. 



> And in "our" defense -


Ha, ha, ha! Do you do this too? grrrr 



> I've heard many women blame a lot of emotional distress and misunderstandings on hormones, periods, menopause, PPD, etc.


That sure as shootin' aint me. Even DH will agree that I don't PMS. I have never had PPD. I have had issues with hormones on these occaissions
- Depo Provera - nevil stuff
- Mirena IUD
- one of the pills I have taken

And I have looked him square in the face and told him I am a mental case right now, please feel free to disregard anything I say.




> If you ladies don't want US questioning these mysterious "hormones", then please don't throw them out as potential causes when it suits your side of the argument.


I don't care what "ladies" do! 

What I don't understand is why what I SAY is the cause of my annoyance ISN'T even a POTENTIAL cause of my annoyance.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What I don't understand is why what I SAY is the cause of my annoyance ISN'T even a POTENTIAL cause of my annoyance.


If you've approached him in the same way you've approached me, let me speak for him...

I'm confused...in 20 words or less - keep it simple - and don't talk about the stuff that annoys you but isn't annoying you - 

Why are you so annoyed?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

VT,
You could be as explicite as a human being could possibly be about your feelings and intention and no doubt there would be some person over there challenging you left and right and questioning you. If called out on their behavior, then it becomes "get out of here, women don't belong". I won't name names, you know who I am referring to.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Because you say you will do helpful things and then don't do them. Since I cannot do them myself, they are left undone.

I used three extra words. Is that ok?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> VT,
> You could be as explicite as a human being could possibly be about your feelings and intention and no doubt there would be some person over there challenging you left and right and questioning you. If called out on their behavior, then it becomes "get out of here, women don't belong". I won't name names, you know who I am referring to.


Conrad?

I am not super concerned about the Men's Clubhouse folk who don't venture forth for fear of us womyns. They don't even represent the minor issue with DH. It was just what brought the thought to the fore.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Because you say you will do helpful things and then don't do them. Since I cannot do them myself, they are left undone.
> 
> I used three extra words. Is that ok?


That's OK.

But I'm still confused.

I thought you said that you were annoyed because he wasn't listening and was accusing you of being depressed or hormonal?

I have the benefit of going back and reading your posts over and over - and I am still a bit confused.

He does not have that benefit.



vthomeschoolmom said:


> Because you say you will do helpful things and then don't do them. Since I cannot do them myself, they are left undone.
> 
> I used three extra words. Is that ok?


If this is the case - and he says you're just being hormonal - then repeat this over and over - keeping it simple - until it sinks in.



vthomeschoolmom said:


> Because you say you will do helpful things and then don't do them. Since I cannot do them myself, they are left undone.


THIS is clear to me. Your original post was not clear - at least not to me.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> That's OK.
> 
> But I'm still confused.
> 
> I thought you said that you were annoyed because he wasn't listening and was accusing you of being depressed or hormonal?


The annoyance predicated a conversation about my annoyance that was then followed by confusion on his part about what could be wrong with me.

BUT I think you probably hit the nail on the head. It may well BE sudden. I may well have been cheerfully not getting annoyed by this same behavior for a while. He and I have been testy with each other due to my current condition. I think I may be inclined to get annoyed by things that previously would not annoy me.




> THIS is clear to me. Your original post was not clear - at least not to me.


Thanks for your help. I think I am a ok now.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Thanks for your help. I think I am a ok now.


Good! Glad I could help!

But for the record, I'm confused again.

Seriously - figure out what you REALLY want - find a simple way to say it - and repeat as necessary.

And for God's sake - don't let your *aggravation* with any of the Men's Clubhouse bleed into your interactions with your husband!!!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Good! Glad I could help!
> 
> But for the record, I'm confused again.
> 
> Seriously - figure out what you REALLY want - find a simple way to say it - and repeat as necessary.


Ok I think I understand why you are confused. There are two different issues.
1. The minor one: I was irritated that he says he is going to do things then does not do them.
2. After expressing that annoyance, he looks for reasons for me to be annoyed other than the reasons I gave him.

When you asked me the problem, I answered the former, which is not the REAL problem. It was the context. But I misunderstood your question and answered it incorrectly.



> And for God's sake - don't let your *aggravation* with any of the Men's Clubhouse bleed into your interactions with your husband!!!


SOME of the OPINIONS of SOME of the men in the Men's Clubhouse. And...Amen to that!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*REAL MAN ™* is paying vigorous attention to this thread. Use of the words 'nipple rings' was somewhat distracting, but *REAL MAN ™* has regained focus.









Everyone has what I refer to as 'The Stack'. It is the stack of stuff in your head that you are accountable for, working on, or struggling to remember. The Stack could be desperately important, or utterly irrelevant. I am firmly convinced that 'The Stack' accounts for 50% or more of miscommunication between spouses when it comes to task related dialogue.

You don't know what's on my stack. I don't know what's on your stack. What you describe is particularly an issue for me due to ADD.

What I suppose I find heartening is that you recognize this as a communication issue, not disrespect or indifference.

If you opened with, "I'm struggling with something and I need your help ..." I'll bet you cup of coffee that he will be attendant and responsive. With that opening you are appealing to the 'fixer' in him. If that doesn't work, try dropping to a knee and delivering a solid nut-punch that'll get his attention too.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> *REAL MAN ™* is paying vigorous attention to this thread. Use of the words 'nipple rings' was somewhat distracting, but *REAL MAN ™* has regained focus.


Really actually Laughing Out Loud.


> Everyone has what I refer to as 'The Stack'. It is the stack of stuff in your head that you are accountable for, working on, or struggling to remember.


First on, last off?


> The Stack could be desperately important, or utterly irrelevant. I am firmly convinced that 'The Stack' accounts for 50% or more of miscommunication between spouses when it comes to task related dialogue.
> 
> You don't know what's on my stack. I don't know what's on your stack. What you describe is particularly an issue for me due to ADD.


I think DH has undiagnosed ADHD. Doesn't the term ADD not officially exist anymore?

This is a source of occasional low grade strife between us. My stack sure as heck does not live in my head. Want to know what is on my stack open, in this order
- Outlook
- my Flylady control journal
- Home School Tracker

There is my stack.

When he tells me he "forgot" I think... of course you forgot. You relied on your brain. Duh.



> What I suppose I find heartening is that you recognize this as a communication issue, not disrespect or indifference.


I never, ever, ever thought for one second that he meant either disrespect or indifference. This is, indeed, heartening. To the point where it is only an issue when I haven't gotten any for 6 weeks and there are 5 more to go, I think.



> If you opened with, "I'm struggling with something and I need your help ..." I'll bet you cup of coffee that he will be attendant and responsive.


He is always attentive and responsive. Just not with the response I would necessary prefer!



> With that opening you are appealing to the 'fixer' in him. If that doesn't work, try dropping to a knee and delivering a solid nut-punch that'll get his attention too.


I could blow him. But then he would be walking around with that dopey face for a day.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Freaking Hilarious Deejo!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I could blow him. But then he would be walking around with that dopey face for a day.


You mean this face?










Let's be honest, dude is either from Vermont or Quebec.

Yes, the correct term is ADHD, it's just that many people, myself included, don't have the 'H'. I never use it as an excuse, but I do fall victim to it, specifically around forgetfulness and time management.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Ew, it so isn't that face. And yah the subtype thing.... Why do they fiddle with our terms?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brawny man isn't even a good example of a guy I'd want to hang out with but those commercials are freaking hilarious. 

Vt, is it possible your husband is still having trouble with you recovering? Maybe the stress of that is getting him a bit mixed up.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Everybody knows real men don't use paper towels. They just create really detailed commercials instructing us women about the intricate task of wiping up a spill with some weird cloth like paper.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Ew, it so isn't that face. And yah the subtype thing.... Why do they fiddle with our terms?


No friggin clue. Although you have given me a coping mechanism with my ex-wife.

When she gives me some kind of task, which still occasionally happens pertaining to the kids, I'm going to ask her to complete the request with: "Do this and I will give you a blow job." 

I think this would help me position the request at the top of 'The Stack'. It's like a mnemonic hook.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> No friggin clue. Although you have given me a coping mechanism with my ex-wife.
> 
> When she gives me some kind of task, which still occasionally happens pertaining to the kids, I'm going to ask her to complete the request with: "Do this and I will give you a blow job."
> 
> I think this would help me position the request at the top of 'The Stack'. It's like a mnemonic hook.


No no no. You aren't computer technical, are you? The Stack is fixed. First on, last off.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

VT,
Your post itself is perfectly clear. Honestly I think it is condescending of your audience (in this case your H) to try to make this about you. 

Lets first accept this for what it is - not a failure to listen but rather an exercise in blame-shifting. Instead of this being about "his" failure to perform it is about "your" tenuous emotional state. 

There is something I refer to as a "compound" problem which is when two issues intersect:
1. I have not performed/done what I promised
2. My W is in general upset about other stuff 

The result of this is the content of her comments is valid but the emotional intensity is WAY higher than it normally would be. 

When that happens I "fully own" my performance problem and then get on it. AFTER I fix the problem I tell her I understand that the cause was 100 percent on me, and I also ask her why she was more angry about it than I expected. 

That approach usually works pretty well. 





vthomeschoolmom said:


> I think I identified one factor in why some of the thoughts of the male posters in the Men's Clubhouse irritate me. It has been on my mind in the context of my life.
> 
> One of the things I really wish is to be understood. (Too bad understanding is not a love language, because I think it would be mine.) I feel, often, that I am misunderstood. The tenor, even the explicit content, of some of the posters is don't listen to what a woman says since she doesn't even know. Or when you wife says she needs x,y,x, what does she REALLY mean?
> 
> ...


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Sigh, perhaps we should try that again... deleted message is... deleted.



MEM11363 said:


> VT,
> Your post itself is perfectly clear. Honestly I think it is condescending of your audience (in this case your H) to try to make this about you.
> 
> Lets first accept this for what it is - not a failure to listen but rather an exercise in blame-shifting. Instead of this being about "his" failure to perform it is about "your" tenuous emotional state.


I thought it was quite edifying (and helpful) of NG to hone in on what was different. Had he ever been different in this regard. No he had not. I was more sensitive to it. I was annoyed by that which had not regularly annoyed me. 



> There is something I refer to as a "compound" problem which is when two issues intersect:
> 1. I have not performed/done what I promised
> 2. My W is in general upset about other stuff


Whose PoV are you speaking from?



> The result of this is the content of her comments is valid but the emotional intensity is WAY higher than it normally would be.


I suppose I would feel the same way if there was any increase in emotional intensity. Which there wasn't. We have certain routines about domestic difference conversations...



> When that happens I "fully own" my performance problem and then get on it. AFTER I fix the problem I tell her I understand that the cause was 100 percent on me, and I also ask her why she was more angry about it than I expected.


Good on you.


> That approach usually works pretty well.


Again, good on you.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Everybody knows real men don't use paper towels. They just create really detailed commercials instructing us women about the intricate task of wiping up a spill with some weird cloth like paper.


Didn't Brawny Man have a puppy with him? Women of course swoon over puppies and are more than willing to clean up messes then! :scratchhead:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Didn't Brawny Man have a puppy with him? Women of course swoon over puppies and are more than willing to clean up messes then! :scratchhead:


Actually, I needed Windex to show me how to spray on to glass and wipe off accordingly. Without that narrative, I would have been lost! 
My personal favorite is the disclaimer on my iron, since only the womenz iron and we are stupid after all....Do not iron clothing while on person.
Gee, I guess that explains all the burns I have suffered.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> So I am annoyed at him. I finally speak to him about it in I feel and other terms as non-judgmentally and non-accusatory as I can manage. And I immediately get what ELSE I might be on about. Am I suffering depression? Are my hormones messed up because of the surgery? Am I worried about my MIL (unimportant why)?


You know, this made me think of women. Generally speaking (do NOT shoot LOL), women tend to over analyze, in the sense of they hear one thing, and they start to think what may be behind what it was they heard.

So maybe your husband has been reading too many of the "what's-in-a-woman's-mind" magazines, LOL, or if it's a recent development (since your surgery) then maybe he is that way now, because he is worried about your health, your well being.

On the side note: I read a lot of articles, magazines, you name it, about a male psyche. How men need to be told straight out, without any hints or roundabouts, what we, women mean/want. And yes I apply that. I tell my husband straight out what I want/need him to do. For example: Upon leaving the house I say: Please put the garbage bags in the hallway while I am gone, that way when I get back I will immediately throw the garbage out".

Guess what? I come back and it's still not done or he is in the middle of doing it! And I had been gone close to an hour! Maybe I have to be more specific and tell him that I will be back in EXACTLY one hour, so he better make sure it's done by then. But now it sounds like a threat. In which case he might as well NOT do it, just to make a point. :rofl:

And it's said that women are complicated :rofl:


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo said:


> When she gives me some kind of task, which still occasionally happens pertaining to the kids, I'm going to ask her to complete the request with: "Do this and I will give you a blow job."


Not effective. I get the dopey face as soon as its mentioned. And if there was anything RESEMBLING an agreement on her part, anything else that was said would be forgotten.


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

VTMom,

MEM is onto something.

I'll add the following:

Generally, when women are upset or angry, people look to her internal workings....seeking out explanations which point to something being wrong with her rather than viewing her as reacting to an actual problem. By extension, this blends nicely with the idea that women are emotional and men are logical. Also...the good old - "Women don't know what they want." These beliefs reinforce the status quo and it means that real issues do not have to get addressed.

_An angry woman is just being emotional._

When men get angry or upset, people look towards the situation & the problem.

_An angry man is reacting to the situation._

It is unfortunate but for many people this way of thinking makes it into their intimate relationships in one way or another because it appears to be socially reinforced.

It's condescending & insulting.

For individual couples and for you guys - perhaps a convo about this dynamic is in order. You could try it out at a time where there is no conflict or use these brief statements in response to his behavior at the time it occurs. I am for option 2 - addresssing things as they happen. It seems to be the most effective way of breaking habits and bringing about change.


Him:



> Are you suffering depression? Are your hormones messed up because of the surgery? Are you worried about MIL?


You


> I feel that you aren't listing to me when I come to you with a specific concern and you ask me questions like those. I also find it very insulting. Let's chat about this later after you've had time to consider what I have just said.


And walk away.

This takes practice but you should do this every time he goes there with you until he breaks that habit he has of dismissing the issues with an analysis of your navel.

Have you read the book _The Dance of Anger?_
This book is awesome for many reasons. Please check it out.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

ChrisInNOVA said:


> VTMom,
> 
> MEM is onto something.
> 
> ...


This is precisely my complaint. How is it that what I am actually SAYING is the problem cannot be actually considered the problem? 



> By extension, this blends nicely with the idea that women are emotional and men are logical. Also...the good old - "Women don't know what they want." These beliefs reinforce the status quo and it means that real issues do not have to get addressed.


Thanks reiterating my precise complaint. I DO know what I want. I speak what I want. I am not particularly emotional. I am about 150% more likely to be driven my reason than my husband.

The issue has resolved itself. We are once again one team.


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

Sorry - I editted just as you were posting....Please take another look. 

This particular situation may have been resolved; however, the overarching issue has not.

I invite you to read the _Dance of Anger_ & develop an effective way to address the behavior at the time it occurs. All you need are one or two effective & impactful sentences topped off with a departure from his presence. Be consistent until the habit is gone.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

What anger? Where is the anger?


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

Please don't fixate on that word.

Seriously.

Try the book. You will not regret it.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Chris, I am not certain what you are on about. I used the word annoyed for a reason. There was exactly zero anger, upset or any other frictional emotions. I expressed a problem. He tried to extrapolate to other things. I indicated No in fact what I said was the problem was the problem, recognizing that oft times I just suck it up and deal and don't get annoyed so I can see why the annoyance comes as a surprise. He did the things I asked. 

I think you are inferring an "underlying problem" that is not there... whatever it is you think it is.


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

I am referring to a good book which describes some very good concepts....concepts which apply in all sorts of situation in life - especially intimate relationships.

Don't be distracted by the title.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Well sometimes a title gives an indication as to what the book is about. I like Passionate Marriage. That was a good one. Helped us out a lot back in the bad old days. Right now I am reading books on how to get a job.


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

Ok. Don't read it. 

I get it - You're busy and not an angry woman.

I tried.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Huh? Did I say I wouldn't read it? I just checked if it available at the library. It isn't. I will have to do inter-library loan.


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

I got the impression that you were not going to read it from your last few posts.

Either way - I'm done with this part of the discussion.

Good luck.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I like reading. I appreciate the recommendation.


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

It did NOT seem that way. Honestly.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Sorry. I can see how you thought I was dismissing you, especially as I back read.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I feel, often, that I am misunderstood.


Then start with yourself and try to understand others before immediately jumping to conclusions - if you wish to remedy this at all.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Do I need a Jump to Conclusions Mat?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

LOL I knew there was a reason why those threads go into 10+ pages LOL


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Then start with yourself and try to understand others before immediately jumping to conclusions - if you wish to remedy this at all.


I think you are saying this because you feel I have not read you accurately. Certainly that is a distinct possibility. BUT it is very often the case that people resist hearing what they don't want to hear. And that is also a distinct possibility.

One of the reasons that people don't understand me is that I don't talk like a girl. I talk like my professor father. Precise, direct. People expect me to emote because I am female. Even DH, who knows me very well, sometimes forgets how I speak.

But sometimes my manner comes in handy. Cuts to the chase. Try to keep the good and revise the bad.


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## ChrisInNOVA (Jan 3, 2011)

I am the same way. And - I get all kinds of shiggity for it.

But the ironic thing is - people claim not to understand "firl speak" either.

We can't win for losing. LOL!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I think you are saying this because you feel I have not read you accurately. Certainly that is a distinct possibility. BUT it is very often the case that people resist hearing what they don't want to hear. And that is also a distinct possibility.
> 
> One of the reasons that people don't understand me is that I don't talk like a girl. I talk like my professor father. Precise, direct. People expect me to emote because I am female. Even DH, who knows me very well, sometimes forgets how I speak.
> 
> But sometimes my manner comes in handy. Cuts to the chase. Try to keep the good and revise the bad.


Well I'm sorry - but I had no idea of your incredible ability to know everyone's circumstances based on the little that they divulge to keep their posts simple on a forum. Even enough to paint mental labels on them straight away.

And I guess the arguments that you had in 'men's clubhouse' is a testament to this fact as well!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

ChrisInNOVA said:


> I am the same way. And - I get all kinds of shiggity for it.
> 
> But the ironic thing is - people claim not to understand "firl speak" either.
> 
> We can't win for losing. LOL!


Waaaah! Can I steal that word? Shiggity? Love it.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Well I'm sorry - but I had no idea of your incredible ability to know everyone's circumstances based on the little that they divulge to keep their posts simple on a forum. Even enough to paint mental labels on them straight away.


See? Touch a nerve did we? 

Take my thoughts or not. That is what a forum is about. But trust me when I tell you that I have been where you are. And it weren't pretty. If happy sunshine up your butt is what you want, there is always plenty of that in any forum. Luckily for ME, some tenacious people were unwilling to blow happy sunshine up my butt when I was having marital problems, finally forcing me to hear their insight despite my seriously not wanting to. I won't suffer that upon you. But I am sure glad they did.


> And I guess the arguments that you had in 'men's clubhouse' is a testament to this fact as well!


Better not argue with the MEN. They get their feelings hurt.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Do I need a Jump to Conclusions Mat?


That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life, VT!!!

:smthumbup:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

NG, you didn't see the movie, did you? I think it was Office Space?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> NG, you didn't see the movie, did you? I think it was Office Space?


That was Michael Bolton's response to the idea:

"That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life, Tom."

I think you also need a few more pieces of flair.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bwaaaahhaaa.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Identifying one's flaws is a good course of action. And many have done so in a mature fashion as adults, especially for me. Judging a person as a whole however, which you have done, is a trait that should be beneath you at your age. Especially in a marital forum.

And what may have worked for you, may not work for others. It's simple common sense that not one shoe fits all.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ok, all those who love Office Space are cool in my book. VT and NG, here are two gold stars, er, um flair from me. Wear them with pride.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Identifying one's flaws is a good course of action. And many have done so in a mature fashion as adults, especially for me. Judging a person as a whole however, which you have done, is a trait that should be beneath you at your age. Especially in a marital forum.
> 
> And what may have worked for you, may not work for others. It's simple common sense that not one shoe fits all.


Take what you need, leave the rest. Good luck to you.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

its been my expierence that if a men is talking at you, and you tell him "you are not listening to me" he will chalk it u to "women troubles" and just check out.

and no amount of replies will make him come out of his self induced stupor.
based on things i have been involved in. in fact just months ago.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Take a look at this:



> New research from Baylor University psychologists has shown that how each person perceives the other partner's emotion during a conflict greatly influences different types of thoughts, feelings and reactions in themselves.
> 
> Dr. Keith Sanford, a clinical psychologist and an associate professor of psychology and neuroscience at Baylor, College of Arts and Sciences, and his research team studied 105 college students in romantic relationships as they communicated through different arguments over an eight-week period.
> 
> ...


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

My husband has no problems to help me when I need his help around the house, especially when things have a breakdown in the house.

My question is:

When you ask your husband for help, how would you ask?

He would feel very different between being demanded by a boss, or being asked for help politely.

"Sorry, can you help me fix this thing? I'm really at my wit's end. I tried, but really don't know how to fix it..."

"Sorry, do you have time to follow up these things, they're very urgent..."

After he helps me, I always show my appreciation & gratitude.

When I notice he's been doing a great job for me, I will give him lots of compliments & praise.

My husband is very happy to help me whatever & whenever I need.

Most men have no problems to rescue their beautiful & lovely wives.


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## Crankshaw (Jan 12, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I think he is really trying to listen to me. There is some kind of like mind block.


there is no mind block, men (in general) have no damn idea just what the heck you women are on about, how can we, we are not women.
I really really try to listen, AND understand what my wife is saying, but 90% of the time, sorry, no idea 

Your (women) brains are wired differently to ours in thought processing, I wish I could understand, my current situation would not be happening 

Oh, another thing, subtle hints, forget it, they don't work with men.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Crankshaw said:


> there is no mind block, men (in general) have no damn idea just what the heck you women are on about, how can we, we are not women.


Ok, I am sorry but that is just lame. He is INTIMATELY aware that I am working on the year's financial plan and the budget. I write him and email with "Hey DH, can you please tell me the amount of money you spend on gas each month so that I may have an somewhat accurate amount in the budget? Gas prices fluctuate, so please err on the high side."

If a female boss were to make such a request, that boss would fire a man who decided to say that he could not understand what she was "on about". Especially considering the request had been discussed together the day before and the email represented the requested reminder.

If you are listening to the words, examine the words. They say things. This is not rocket science.


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## Crankshaw (Jan 12, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Ok, I am sorry but that is just lame.


nope, not lame in the slightest.



> He is INTIMATELY aware that I am working on the year's financial plan and the budget. I write him and email with "Hey DH, can you please tell me the amount of money you spend on gas each month so that I may have an somewhat accurate amount in the budget? Gas prices fluctuate, so please err on the high side."


that is so lame, you are the one who handles the bills, you ought to know already.
Every time I buy petrol (or anything for that matter) I get a cash register receipt, when I get home I give any receipts to the wife.



> If you are listening to the words, examine the words. They say things. This is not rocket science.


If you spoke 'man speak' you mean, you know what you are thinking, you know what you are saying, 90% of the time we hear what you are saying, but don't understand, or misunderstand, but don't repeat it back to you in our 'speak' for fear of starting what we perceive as a useless argument.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Crankshaw said:


> nope, not lame in the slightest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wouldn't THAT be nice. 

Would you be able to understand a simple request for a dollar figure? Or would that be too baffling female to you? 




> If you spoke 'man speak' you mean, you know what you are thinking, you know what you are saying, 90% of the time we hear what you are saying, but don't understand, or misunderstand, but don't repeat it back to you in our 'speak' for fear of starting what we perceive as a useless argument.


best of luck with that.


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## Crankshaw (Jan 12, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Wouldn't THAT be nice.


Seems to be the easiest way.



> Would you be able to understand a simple request for a dollar figure? Or would that be too baffling female to you?


I, personally, can't give you a $ figure for the amount of fuel I use on a weekly basis, I take little to no notice, work provides far more important challenges that I need to be aware of than if I use $5 or $8 worth of fuel in my car. 



> best of luck with that.


yeah


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Crankshaw said:


> I, personally, can't give you a $ figure for the amount of fuel I use on a weekly basis, I take little to no notice, work provides f(


I am sure that that has nothing to do with how bafflingly incomprehensible females are which is what I was calling lame.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This just gave me a good laugh. Listening to the words does not always equate to comprehensible.

Going back probably 5 years, but the exchange still stands out. She was upstairs. I was downstairs.

Her: "Ok? Can you do that please?" 
Me: No response. Standing at the bottom of the stairs.
Her: She comes to the top of the stairs looking down at my quizzical expression. "Did you hear what I said."
Me: "I heard you, but I don't think I heard it right."
Her: "What did I say?"
Me: "You asked me to put the monkeys in the soup. Those were the words I heard."

Good laugh. She clarified. I complied and helped put on my sons coat for school.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Worse than that! Ever since my son was born, I will substitute nouns! I was holding our then infant son. DH was going upstairs. Honey can you please get me my sandwiches while you are up there? He looked at me funny. And came down with my slippers. As asked.


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## Crankshaw (Jan 12, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I am sure that that has nothing to do with how bafflingly incomprehensible females are which is what I was calling lame.


Yes, it does, you operate on one level, men operate on a different level, sometimes what is important to you, means little to us, and visa versa.



> Her: "Ok? Can you do that please?"
> Me: No response. Standing at the bottom of the stairs.
> Her: She comes to the top of the stairs looking down at my quizzical expression. "Did you hear what I said."
> Me: "I heard you, but I don't think I heard it right."
> ...


Is a great example of what is said and what is heard.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

That is an example of hearing different words. Has nothing to do with importance. Don't claim failure to understand when when you mean is you just don't want to do it. Oh sorry "just isn't important to men."


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## Crankshaw (Jan 12, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> That is an example of hearing different words. Has nothing to do with importance.


another example of what women say " The dishes need to be washed" when what they mean is 'I need more help around the house'



> Don't claim failure to understand when when you mean is you just don't want to do it. Oh sorry "just isn't important to men."


you expect us to know what you want, what is important to you 'at this time', sorry, we don't work that way no matter how hard we try


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Vt, I'll be honest, I didn't read this entire thread, but did read your first post.

I strongly agree and identify with this.

It's such a relief and wonderful feeling to be understood. When i'm not, it stresses me out a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> One of the reasons that people don't understand me is that I don't talk like a girl. I talk like my professor father. Precise, direct.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I can relate. People misunderstand me too based on my tendency to talk "like this."
> ...


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