# Maybe I should not be in R...



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Maybe I should not be in R.

I felt strange not hearing from my husband much today. No call at lunchtime, but its alright I guess. Why be antsy? My blood pressure is down, but my heart rate has been elevated my last 2 visits... but I haven't had a panic attack in weeks. I'm off my meds now except a sleeping pill. I feel like it might be going OK in R, slow going, but OK. I have been feeling better.

Tonight H comes through the door, after calling to ask if I want a beer, I say yes. He is only 15 minutes late. He comes to kiss me like he always does after work. He reeks of alcohol. I say, "oh, I see you've already started." He gives me his signature Little Boy Caught smile and my heart sinks. Not a word.

My heart is beating out of my chest. "My boss wanted to have a drink, I'm home on time. I thought that would be OK. What's the big deal?"

"Why didn't you call and let me know that?"

"Because I didn't want you to be upset."

All I can think of is he is out with his (single, male) boss, without his wedding ring, at a bar, and doesn't bother to call and let me know he's not coming home right after work. I don't care if its only a couple drinks. As far as I know, he could have gotten off earlier and been out with whoever he wants... My mind is my own worst enemy. I should just let it go, but I say all this and more. I just can't take it.

I am crying and tell him I just want to be alone. Now he's crashed in the bedroom and I feel like I am going to have a heart attack. I am sure he won't try to talk to me again tonight, and if I talk, we will fight.

Even the slightest thing has me on edge. R is the hardest thing I have ever done, emotionally.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This is hard. It sounds like he does not get it. He does not get the level of fear and pain.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> My heart is beating out of my chest. "My boss wanted to have a drink, I'm home on time. I thought that would be OK. What's the big deal?"
> 
> "Why didn't you call and let me know that?"
> 
> "Because I didn't want you to be upset."


I'm sorry; I don't know how far along you are in this process...have you already had specific discussions of what your boundaries are and what you expect him to do and not do? 

Because he should be very clear that you expect him to do things like _*always *_call you if he's going to be late, no matter what. And he should know that you would be far more upset not knowing than knowing. And that you need to always know where he is. And maybe that he gave up the right to go out drinking in bars without you anymore. He should know of everything you need in order to get through this - he should be clear on it and agree to it.

I think on that marriagebuilders site there are actual contracts or something that two people write up together regarding their agreement on how to move forward after infidelity. If not, it might not hurt to write down some boundaries and rules that he specifically agrees to, and have him commit to doing the hard work to repair the trust he destroyed.

"I thought it would be worse if you knew" and "because I didn't want you to be upset" is a cheater's mentality. Those are statements justifying hiding and lying and sneaking around behind your back to do what they want to do. That's what cheater's say about lying to their spouses, right? "What she doesn't know, won't hurt her." Make sure he understands that you see that and refuse to tolerate it or accept it.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

He's testing the waters. Story may be legit but he's seeing how far he can go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Yeah, he didn't want to call and say he was going out for a drink after work because he used to call and let me know (before I knew about his internet funtime with other women - that he swears never went offline, of course) and I was OK with it, but then he would stay out all night after the call, so he now knows that I don't buy that line anymore and didn't even want to try it!

That's his reason.

He figures if he came home on time, what, that I wouldn't figure it out? Or are his excuses so ridiculous even HE doesn't bother anymore.

In actual fact, this is LIGHTWEIGHT stuff for him...or anyone really. He works hard all day, lots of guys have drinks after work, right?

I cannot believe the kind of wife I have become. I sound like some kind of shrew....its like there is no way to win.

I just want my Boo back. I haven't seen him in forever. Everything is so backwards, unreal and uncertain. I'm afraid of my own shadow.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

You sound like you are trying to internalize the blame for what happened between you two. That will only lead to resentment and a failed R anyway. Put the brakes on this crap ASAP. Sit him down, and tell him that while you understand that he needs personal time in order to be a functional human being, there are more pressing matters to attend to at the moment. The number one matter being your marriage, which happens to be teetering on the verge of failing for good. Whatever time he spent at the bar drinking with his boss could have been spent drinking at the bar with you, and instead of you being an emotional wreck and posting here for sup[port, you would have probably been enjoying some hysterical bonding with your Boo. 

He really needs to wake up, and you need to try your best to let some of the pain go. If you continue to bottle it up without communicating it to him, or without having a proper outlet, you will poison your own efforts to have a relationship with your partner. 

You are not, I repeat, NOT acting like a shrew. He may work hard all day, lots of other men work hard all day too WITHOUT screwing around on their partners. You did not just become "this kind of wife" for fun, he was the direct cause of it, and should be doing his best to help you get closer to the baseline you want to achieve.

As mentioned above, communicate clearly that the way he behaved is unacceptable, and if he refuses to change the behavior that is causing you to feel this way (trigger) then you have to give some serious thought to what the consequences will be. Whatever consequences you choose to lay out MUST be followed through on by you, so choose something you can actually manage.

Best of luck, do keep us posted.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

golfergirl said:


> He's testing the waters. Story may be legit but he's seeing how far he can go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree

It takes one call to you to ask if your ok with him going out.

At the end of the day his actions reflect his attitude to you , his respect for you and his willingness to make you feel safe .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

norajane said:


> I'm sorry; I don't know how far along you are in this process...have you already had specific discussions of what your boundaries are and what you expect him to do and not do?
> 
> Because he should be very clear that you expect him to do things like _*always *_call you if he's going to be late, no matter what. And he should know that you would be far more upset not knowing than knowing. And that you need to always know where he is. And maybe that he gave up the right to go out drinking in bars without you anymore. He should know of everything you need in order to get through this - he should be clear on it and agree to it.
> 
> ...


I am just tired of explaining this stuff. That he chose to just not call because he "knew I'd be mad". He actually thought he did a good job. Like I am supposed to be proud of him for not staying out all night COMPLETELY discounting me.

Its just exasperating. He could have called, I would have not believed him, but then he could have come home on time and I would have learned that I was wrong to be upset about it. That he would keep his word and not just placate me...

Instead, he just omits calling me altogether, we get into it, and he goes to crash. There's not another word. No dinner, no evening together, just back to our respective corners.

For what?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This is hard. It sounds like he does not get it. He does not get the level of fear and pain.


No, he does not get it. And when he drinks its all a game.

"Where were you? Where did you guys go?"

Nothing

WHERE WERE YOU.

"My boss came up after work and said..."

I walked out of the room. I feel like he's a cat playing with a mouse.

Tired of being the mouse.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Paladin said:


> You sound like you are trying to internalize the blame for what happened between you two. That will only lead to resentment and a failed R anyway. Put the brakes on this crap ASAP. Sit him down, and tell him that while you understand that he needs personal time in order to be a functional human being, there are more pressing matters to attend to at the moment. The number one matter being your marriage, which happens to be teetering on the verge of failing for good. Whatever time he spent at the bar drinking with his boss could have been spent drinking at the bar with you, and instead of you being an emotional wreck and posting here for sup[port, you would have probably been enjoying some hysterical bonding with your Boo.
> 
> He really needs to wake up, and you need to try your best to let some of the pain go. If you continue to bottle it up without communicating it to him, or without having a proper outlet, you will poison your own efforts to have a relationship with your partner.
> 
> ...


What consequence can their be? Me moving out? We havent even put our rings back on yet. We sleep in separate rooms. We are barely even together at this point and its already starting up. 

I told him I didn't think we could R under these circumstances, because I cannot bring myself to sleep in our room. Well, he said we could. He believes we can do this. It will just take time and he will wait til I am ready, no matter how long it takes.

How can I ever be ready if I can't even deal with the small stuff. Its just the way he acts.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Eli-Zor said:


> Agree
> 
> It takes one call to you to ask if your ok with him going out.
> 
> ...


For sure this is so true. I just feel like he could have just as easily smoothed things over, told me he loved me and it wont happen again, started making dinner or ANYTHING. 

But after I told him I wanted to be alone (because I was starting to shrew out and couldn't stand the sound of my own voice), he has a smoke, and then just goes to bed!

If its just a drink with the boss, why act like this? And why no answer when I ask directly where he was? Is it because he knows he did nothing and just wants to see if I will squirm? Arrrrrrghhh.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Eli-Zor said:


> Agree
> 
> It takes one call to you to ask if your ok with him going out.
> 
> ...


Yeah, and its about him not "having to hear it" or about him "not being believed" --- Its never about me or how its going to make me feel.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> No, he does not get it. And when he drinks its all a game.
> 
> "Where were you? Where did you guys go?"
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry that he treated you that way, was vague and began his answers with a detour of the question you asked. What should have happened, even without the phone call (which was inexcusable in itself, but COULD have been redeemed if he had actually answered the question asked of him) would have been the following:

You: Where were you?

Him: Joe's Bar and Grill, right down the street from my workplace

You: Why?

Him: Because my boss came in (etc. and so forth).

However, if "his boss came in AFTER work", then it was either a mad rush to get to the bar, guzzle a beer, and RUSH home OR, his boss approached him DURING the work day, they left earlier than he stated, and he casually enjoyed a beer with his boss, which sounds more plausible than the "rush" explanation. 

Yes, I am a nitpicker when it comes to wording (as my WS has learned over time) and something in the above explanation rings of TT, or outright misdirection. It just doesn't seem logically that a discussion AFTER work, a quick trip to the bar, and a drink and conversation happened in a leisurely manner as he tried to explain during the time in question.

As other have said here, you might want to get to the bottom of why he felt the need to cover for himself, if he is as committed to R as you are.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't think you should analyse why he is behaving so , he at this moment does not give a dam and thinks life will continue as is if he goes back to his corner .

The real question is what do you do? As I see it your not in any form of R , you and your husband are squaring off in seperate corners. I suspect your husband is mocking you and is waiting for enough time to pass for this to go away. A view from the outside is your husband is not going to change unless something that he values is effected. Your not that someone of value.

Decide if you want to live like this , if so his behaviour will destroy your soul and make you a bitter person. Try change the dynamics , read up on the 180 and run it. Your husband may not be in an affair but he sure is behaving selfishly and without a care for you.

The 180 will help you get controll of your own emotions and place you in a better position to decide what the next step should be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not sure how long it has been for you but, we are almost 2yrs out and I still will make sure my H knows where I am at and when I will be home. He tells me I don't have to but, I feel it is something I need to do. I agree with everyone else, your H does not get what he has done to you at all. To me, he is acting like a child. Sort of like, I'm going to get in trouble anyway so, I may as well do what I want sort of thing.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> What consequence can their be? Me moving out? We havent even put our rings back on yet. We sleep in separate rooms. We are barely even together at this point and its already starting up.
> 
> I told him I didn't think we could R under these circumstances, because I cannot bring myself to sleep in our room. Well, he said we could. He believes we can do this. It will just take time and he will wait til I am ready, no matter how long it takes.
> 
> How can I ever be ready if I can't even deal with the small stuff. Its just the way he acts.


Why would you be the one to move out? He is the one that messed it up, he should be the one that is made uncomfortable by the consequences of his choice, not you. I'm going to say it again, the longer things go on like this, the less of a chance you will have to salvage things between the two of you. If you truly want R with him, you have to do the hard thing, you have to stand up for yourself. How can you expect him to ever respect you if you can not respect yourself enough to put an end to his shtty behavior? 

He says he is willing to wait till you are ready, well let him know if he can not bring himself to help you heal, he has to go wait somewhere else while you are healing without him. Anything short of that will result in you becoming resentful and ending things with him. (consciously or unconsciously)


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

The 180

The Healing Heart: The 180
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> I'm so sorry that he treated you that way, was vague and began his answers with a detour of the question you asked. What should have happened, even without the phone call (which was inexcusable in itself, but COULD have been redeemed if he had actually answered the question asked of him) would have been the following:
> 
> You: Where were you?
> 
> ...


I know you are certainly dead on here. I know how it is at his company. I know his old boss works on the next floor and I have no trouble believing that his boss or a group were going by my H's desk saying they were going for drinks as they do this often and work downtown. 

However, their office is closing and there have been lots of goodbye parties going on. Some people are moving to the new headquarters (out of state) and some are taking a separation package. My H is taking the package.

I also would have no trouble believing that they took off work earlier than at 6pm. He was off at 6 and home by 640. And he seemed awfully toasted for just a quick beer.

"So, you are going to BED now?? I say going into the bedroom.

"I don't want to fight."

Well have a nice evening I told him and went to sleep in my safe spot in the house. Thank god for the library.

What am I doing?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I have done the 180. I have put papers on the table. I have told him to move out, I am done. Then he broke and wanted to really R.

He just said, I was home on time. I did good. I wasn't out all night, I am home, after work, with you.

He hasn't gone out with the guys from work since we decided to R. I feel like I can't stand up and say anything because this is so lightweight compared to how entitled he used to be before.

I really do feel like maybe I am overreacting, what trouble could he possibly get into in less than a half hour after work?

Then my gut says, Thats what you are supposed to think, theres no way it happened like that.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I know you are certainly dead on here. I know how it is at his company. I know his old boss works on the next floor and I have no trouble believing that his boss or a group were going by my H's desk saying they were going for drinks as they do this often and work downtown.
> 
> However, their office is closing and there have been lots of goodbye parties going on. Some people are moving to the new headquarters (out of state) and some are taking a separation package. My H is taking the package.
> 
> ...


"I don't want to fight."

So, he "doesn't want to fight" for his marriage? I would ask him this. Your questions are the directed result of him being unfaithful to you, and an attempt to get back what was lost. Trust. And he doesn't want to fight? So either he is hiding something, or he is no longer engaged in the R. Which is it?

LWC, I am truly sorry and understand completely how this episode has left you to feel like you are back to square one with the trust issue. If I were in your shoes, I would feel angry and betrayed too. It takes two to make a marriage work, and if he won't continue to engage in the process, then you will, sadly, have to find other ways of finding peace in your life.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

I've never had a drink after work with coworkers, married 15 years.

Maybe its my location, but the guys I know go home to their wives, not out for a drink. This maybe a "bigger" city type thing though. Cheers types thing? I know for me that is just a tv show and after work I am expected to go home and be with the wife.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

You read the 180... follow it and stick to it. Eli-zor gave good advice there.

He needs to move out or prove he has a plan to make it work, outline the plan, and stick to it. My WW did something like this at the start of our R, she texted me at 830 to say she was going to Subway to "grab a bite" with some women from work and would be home soon. She came home near *midnight *and I heard nothing from her after the 830 text.

What's the issue? It's not going out with friends. It's going to a fast food place from 830 till midnight and the lack of common courtesy to say, "hey we'll be here longer". It would have taken her 15 seconds to text that or less. If all I know is that my WW can't spend 15 seconds to give me peace of mind then...

...she can come home to a locked house and a spouse ready for her to leave forever. Is what actually happened the issue? Hell no! She can go out to Subway whenever she wants. It's the attitude behind it. We got 99% of the way through separation on that one and it is still an issue with me. Marriages live and die on the little things you know.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am just tired of explaining this stuff. That he chose to just not call because he "knew I'd be mad". He actually thought he did a good job. Like I am supposed to be proud of him for not staying out all night COMPLETELY discounting me.
> 
> Its just exasperating. He could have called, I would have not believed him, but then he could have come home on time and I would have learned that I was wrong to be upset about it. That he would keep his word and not just placate me...
> 
> ...


My STBEH did all the things you mention while we were in a supposedly good R. 

He just didn't get it and I filed for divorce. Now he wants to stay together, but he still says he wants his freedom to do all the things he did prior to me discovering his cheating.

Another woman here claimed that my answer to everything is to file for D.

That is not true. Everyone is different and their threshold and tolerance for deception and pain are different. 

I couldn't handle the ongoing little deceptions, not calling because he didn't want to be under the microscope, Lying about his whereabout because he thought it might start an argument, etc, and that is why I filed for D. 

I wanted the husband I once knew and trusted back, but I finally realized with the ongoing deceptions that he wasn't coming back, and all I would get is more of the same. 

My heart could not bear the pain any longer because I did and do love him. But, being deceived all the time by the one you love is so beyond painful. 

I was never a suspicious possessive wife and I became that after his cheating. I hated myself and he was the cause of it. Yet, he would not face that truth.

Sorry you are here.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yeah, he didn't want to call and say he was going out for a drink after work because he used to call and let me know (before I knew about his internet funtime with other women - that he swears never went offline, of course) and I was OK with it, but then he would stay out all night after the call, so he now knows that I don't buy that line anymore and didn't even want to try it!
> 
> That's his reason.
> 
> ...


That is how I feel alot of the times..like a shrew..and it angers me that I have become like that..especially when H's conversations with EA were so nice and fluffy and light..and with me they tend to be the opposite alot of the time. I can't compete right now with flirtatious, light and rainbows.

I hate the fact that I have to check on phone calls, texts, computer, etc. Never had to do that before...


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> That is how I feel alot of the times..like a shrew..and it angers me that I have become like that..especially when H's conversations with EA were so nice and fluffy and light..and with me they tend to be the opposite alot of the time. I can't compete right now with flirtatious, light and rainbows.
> 
> I hate the fact that I have to check on phone calls, texts, computer, etc. Never had to do that before...


Highwood:

I so empathize. 

Yes. I felt like a shrew checking on him. Particularly because after Dday one of the reason he gave for cheating was the I was his wife, I was intellectual, and she was "just fun".

Well sure it was fun. They were dating/courting, they were not married. 

All relationships start out in that perfect bubble. It's immature to think it won't fade after 20 years.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

So, this morning I wake up in the library, open the door and he is already gone off to work. No note on the table. No msg on my phone. Nothing.

Prolly wont hear from him all day, and then we have a 3 day weekend coming up. I was really looking forward to this time with him. Now I am just dreading it. 

And its supposed to be beautiful weather.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> So, this morning I wake up in the library, open the door and he is already gone off to work. No note on the table. No msg on my phone. Nothing.
> 
> Prolly wont hear from him all day, and then we have a 3 day weekend coming up. I was really looking forward to this time with him. Now I am just dreading it.
> 
> And its supposed to be beautiful weather.



What are you going to do about it? 

We often advise BS that they must be prepared to move on from their marriage , this belief followed by action may cause your WH a jolt , if not you knowing you will move on empowers you to do so. At this moment it reads like you looking to him to respond to you, show affection be remorseful . He won't , he knows you and is doing what he has always done . 

Change the dynamics to save yourself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> So, this morning I wake up in the library, open the door and he is already gone off to work. No note on the table. No msg on my phone. Nothing.
> 
> Prolly wont hear from him all day, and then we have a 3 day weekend coming up. I was really looking forward to this time with him. Now I am just dreading it.
> 
> And its supposed to be beautiful weather.


Well you should enjoy the beautiful weather. Go for a walk, sit outside, go to a bbq with friends at the park. Don't include him if he doesn't want to go. But don't sit and sulk around either. If you want to enjoy the weather, enjoy it.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

It reads like your WH is pulling an effective 180 on you and your responding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Eli-Zor said:


> It reads like your WH is pulling an effective 180 on you and your responding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know, right?!

Most likely he will just come home after work and never mention it again.

This is why my original thread was called, "Cloak and Dagger"


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Also, there seems to be a contradiction. The 180 says don't spy on the spouse, but I am just about there. I think a VAR might give me the truth and I have resisted doing this for a long time.

This whole thing just kills me. Because HE KNOWS whats going on! He could easily assuage my fears, but just will avoid the whole thing instead.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

I had a chat with my SO the other night after I got annoyed about some little thing. It was a little thing that became a BIG THING pretty quick.

I stalked off, but then came back a little later and swallowed my anger, because she couldn't understand why I was pissed. I explained to her that, since we both* tend to rug-sweep as opposed to solve problems, that little incidents can blow up to be big ones because the last set of problems never really got resolved.

She said something along the lines of "I never looked at it like that."

Dunno if that will sink in or not. But at least I have outlined my thoughts on the matter to her.

It sounds like, in your situation, the new reality hasn't sunk in. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he's not very communicative... but I do think that, before you throw in the towel (and who could blame you at this point), that you calmly and clearly tell him why not telling you something because it would upset you if you knew about is the EXACT WRONG WAY to handle his business with you. That way you've told him what you expect from here on in, clearly and concisely. He has to understand that, in light of what's gone on in the past, that he can't keep being so inconsiderate to you.

Of course, it's up to him to meet those expectations, and who knows.

Hang in there. Do something to enjoy yourself without him. Don't let him stop you from your day, weekend, or even your LIFE, if it comes down to it. 


*not just her; I'm just as responsible


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> I had a chat with my SO the other night after I got annoyed about some little thing. It was a little thing that became a BIG THING pretty quick.
> 
> I stalked off, but then came back a little later and swallowed my anger, because she couldn't understand why I was pissed. I explained to her that, since we both* tend to rug-sweep as opposed to solve problems, that little incidents can blow up to be big ones because the last set of problems never really got resolved.
> 
> ...


Thanks, this is very well said. Its very hard to be objective which is why this board is a Godsend. 

The problem I am having is that he KNOWS what he is doing. He is doing nothing blatant or bad. Its just a nightmare for me because I don't know what's really going on. It's probably nothing. But the way he handles it is infuriating.

The whole playing dumb routine. I told him - If I was doing any of this stuff to you? You wouldn't be "confused", you would know exactly how it would feel.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

If he's not willing to do the work, why should you be willing to leave your heart on the line?

Just food for thought.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Agreed.

But as I told another poster in a PM today.....

I am trying to take care of myself. I walk, meditate, do yoga and am organizing years of stagnation in my house. He has jumped in as is helping with the house, it has been good for both of us. We have been cleaning out the storeroom area of the basement.

I have been writing a lot of music. I work on it to the exclusion of everything else on some days. My goal this summer was to finish the music room in the basement so I can spend out the hottest days in a cool sanctuary, recording.

I have been to the doctor, the counselor, the OB/GYN and the therapist. I have taken care of myself and just want my blood pressure and heart rate numbers to come down. Stuff like this sends it through the roof. I have never had high blood pressure before.

I can't just walk away. Well, I could but my life is here right now. We are entangled in so many ways. Music is how we met. And he is brilliant at it. It is the musical bond that has kept us together all these years.

When he first met me I was trying to finish college. Almost 17 years ago. He sold his baby grand so I could. Things like that mean a lot in our history. I have several pianos now, but I remember those days. The first time we broke up, YEARS ago, I was making good money after finishing school. He had pawned his prized Gibson and I knew about it. The day it was due, he had no money. I went to the shop (unknown to him) and bought it back on payments. It took me months to pay it off. We were not together at the time and I still did it because I never forgot his original sacrifice to me.

We have so much history like this. I want R to work so much it hurts.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, forget the 180, I got mad and called him after he didn't call on his last break.

Told him I can't take any kind of this crap. And not talking all night and the next day? FORGET THIS BS. I can't handle even the hint of it. Not calling to avoid conflict is not even almost OK. If he thinks going out after work, without his wedding ring and avoiding me afterward is going to fly he has another thing coming. I don't care if he is home in time for dinner. We didn't even end up having dinner!

He actually said he was sorry and he should have called. He will call if there ever is a next time.

I agree 100% with tover:
*
He needs to move out or prove he has a plan to make it work, outline the plan, and stick to it.*

I am going to memorize this and repeat it to him tonight when he comes home to talk to me.

And if he goes to the bar tonight (they go out a lot on Fridays, Oh I forgot about that, oh well...) I guess that would mean My R has fallen apart completely.....

Maybe I am losing it LOLS But I feel like taking bets on this one.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Sometimes enough is enough......you know your limit and don't be afraid to stand up for yourself or the marriage!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LWC~

I'll be honest. I've thought all day about whether or not to say this, as I'm not sure if I can communicate this well, but I'm gonna try. 

What would happen if you literally just let go? I don't mean move out or force him to move out or divorce tonight...I just mean take your hands off the wheel. You say that you're doing the 180 and I suspect you are looking at the 180 list and trying to do the "items" on the list, but at the very HEART of the 180 is this concept of turning 180 degrees (a complete about-face). 

Up to this point, checking up on him, snooping, trying to guilt him and persuade him, yelling--all these things have not worked for you. You yourself mentioned that you feel like you're becoming a shrew (using your term there  ) and that isn't who you are. So what you're doing is NOT WORKING. You aren't getting the results you want and it's not "making" him stop or do things your way. 

I propose something radical. Call him up right now...or tonight when he's home...and just tell him you're done. You have looked at yourself and the kind of person you are becoming and you don't like it and you have decided to stop. Tell him that effective immediately you will no long be checking up on him, snooping, trying to guilt him and persuade him, or yelling because that is not the person you want to be and you're tired of it. Tell him that you had hoped to persuade him to be thoughtful and think of how his choices affect you, but that hasn't happened and so you're tired of trying to be part of someone's thoughts and life who just doesn't care all that much. 

Then STOP. For real. If you keep snooping and yelling it makes you just *sick* inside because it really is not the kind of person you are deep inside you...and you are acting in a way that contradicts the foundation of who you are. AND that way of behaving has not gotten you what you want!! Whether you push and yell and rage at him or not, he may or may not continue to try to "go out after work" and hide bad behavior and avoid consequences!

So...at the heart of the 180 is doing that about face...the complete change. It's going from: "WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU COME HOME YOU FREAK!" to "Oh you didn't come straight home? I didn't notice because I no longer care. I only allow myself to care for people who treat me with respect...so talk to ya later." It's going from "I can't take any kind of this crap. And not talking all night and the next day? B.S!!!" to not even being around and when he acts like he wants to talk some day just be too busy. And it's not because you are giving him the cold shoulder or "punishing him" but it's more fundamental than that. 

He is choosing to act very blatantly in ways that communicate "I intend to continue hiding things, lying and being disrespectful" so rather than continuing what you are doing that is a) not getting the result you want and b) is counter to the very core of your being and the kind of woman you...just stop. From a very foundational part of your being take your hands off of trying to stop him (from whatever he's trying to do) and instead focus 100% on being WHO YOU ARE whether it's with him or apart from him. Just be her. Be the woman who is kind and loving and interesting and funny. Reserve your love and time and energy and CARE for someone who is treating you that way...and if it's him, cool. And if it's not, that's okay with you cuz it's not like you need his crumbs. 

Does that make sense. Just tell him you're done, and he's free to fall right into the gutter if that's what he's determined to do, but you do not choose to follow and you do not choose to continue to be the woman you've been lately.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> LWC~
> 
> I'll be honest. I've thought all day about whether or not to say this, as I'm not sure if I can communicate this well, but I'm gonna try.
> 
> ...


AC, I hear you. I have not been doing the 180. Someone suggested that and my response was maybe, then NO WAY. I have been in R. We have been working hard at it. We have been working on the house together. He has been trying.

But this just stunned me and I don't want it to reset and start again. I know you are right though. It just breaks my heart all over again because I really wanted R. But I know you are right. Just let them go. I did this. But he pulled me back. Now I have to let go again? 

How much can the heart take....


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> LWC~
> 
> I'll be honest. I've thought all day about whether or not to say this, as I'm not sure if I can communicate this well, but I'm gonna try.
> 
> ...


This post really resonates with me...I do not like who I have become...snoppy, checking things out, reading into things, paranoid. I don't know...I am at a point where I think I really need to figure things out. I feel like I am so tired of being angry and sad all the time...I hate it.

It is scary though not checking because it makes me feel like if I don't check then will he be inclined to reestablish contact..but then I think well if he does then we are done and then the consequences follow. I get scared about the future whether this person is who I can count on...the lack of trust is soooo scary and I hate it and it is not going to go away anytime soon. Can I live like this? It is like my H has all the power...he can decide to reestablish contact or he can not..so if we have a fight I worry that he is going to want to make contact with her as a way of making himself feel better...I don't know if I want to live with the threat of this all the time..whether it be all in my head or not...

I am sitting here with tears in my eyes as I type this because I feel so down today...


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I think too that the snooping makes me feel in control but am I really???


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

highwood said:


> I think too that the snooping makes me feel in control but am I really???


Print this out and keep it with you.

Betrayed Spouse Bill of Rights « betrayed but recovering

Its not about being in control, it's about protecting yourself and your marriage.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Print this out and keep it with you.
> 
> Betrayed Spouse Bill of Rights « betrayed but recovering
> 
> Its not about being in control, it's about protecting yourself and your marriage.


Thanks for that...good point!

I don't know I am just feeling kind of down today for some reason...


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Ok, I just had a chance to read the entire thread. It doesn't look like you're in R. He isn't 100% committed and doing the heavy lifting for R to work. He should be busting his ass to win your heart back, he should be moving heaven and earth to win your trust back to make you feel secure. Ask Entropy3000, sigma1299 and the former wayward husbands here.

Instead, he's trying to go on as normal and starting to slide back into his old habits. I'm seeing more rug sweeping here than real effort from what you describe.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

The thing is, I never have really snooped! I have checked the phone records a couple times, have access to the emails but dont get into them, etc. But he knows this.

I have never put out a VAR or GPS. I have no keyloggers. I'm still working on verifying the official story, sort of. Meaning I am still trying to get to the bottom of why he chooses to solve his problem with me by seeking out other women. If he can't get a handle on if THAT can change/why it happened/how will it NOT happen on the future when we hit a rough spot.......then what's the point of going on?

Maybe I do need to investigate more. But this is the issue we have been dealing with. I don't see how or why I could do the 180 if this is our current goal. 

I have to keep trying while I am trying, if that makes sense, but I fear lordmayhem may be right and it may be a shaky R.

AC, if I drop the rope I it will be because I am really done, I know this. Then he will go into overdrive to get my attention. This has happened twice in 17 years. But never in the last 9 we have been married. Til his PC crashed and I found out.

I honestly think he was afraid I would D him if he come home late. So he tried to make me and his boss happy. If that's even the real story.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> The thing is, I never have really snooped! I have checked the phone records a couple times, have access to the emails but dont get into them, etc. But he knows this.
> 
> I have never put out a VAR or GPS. I have no keyloggers. I'm still working on verifying the official story, sort of. Meaning I am still trying to get to the bottom of why he chooses to solve his problem with me by seeking out other women. If he can't get a handle on if THAT can change/why it happened/how will it NOT happen on the future when we hit a rough spot.......then what's the point of going on?
> 
> ...


You haven't been verifying NC? He could have taken the A underground and you wouldn't know it. Look the 180 is a set of guidelines, not a rigid set of rules. You can adjust it to fit your particular situation. It's a self empowerment tool. You can verify NC while still maintaining your version of the 180.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> You haven't been verifying NC? He could have taken the A underground and you wouldn't know it. Look the 180 is a set of guidelines, not a rigid set of rules. You can adjust it to fit your particular situation. It's a self empowerment tool. You can verify NC while still maintaining your version of the 180.


My H did not have a physical affair (that I know of). He was having cybersex that he claims (and I do not know) never went real world. It certainly could have. And he destroyed ALL the evidence so I will never know. 

So, in light of that, I acted as if and have been verifying this version of reality by going to get a full STD panel and twice now checking to see if he was stilll going online on his phone (which he was and I told him he can no longer delete history if he want me to stay.) I dont keylog the PC because I am a computer guru and can find anything out if I want without spyware. He only got away with this because I *trusted* him and didn't check up. Not because he was able to delete it all (which is what he thought and what he was doing.) When I started to catch on and pieced together some deleted session cookies, the crap hit the fan, so to speak.

Stuff like meeting for drinks after work scares the he!! out of me because that is the exact description of what it would be if he was meeting up offline. Its also plausible that he did have a drink with his boss and got a ride home. 

So last night DD now 22, was here after finals. I asked him if I could use the gold card and he texted back yes. When he got home we were heading out the door to the bar at the top of the block. I was buying her a drink after a week of exams and a long year of studying. He stayed behind.

We had a wonderful talk and I am so proud of what she has accomplished. I have fought hard to get her focus onto school and have been her support when her academic limits were tested. She has overcome and exceeded every challenge with remarkable perseverance and fortitude. My sister is also coming back after studying in Europe all year. It was really fantastic to go out for a little while and just sit outside and talk about school and travel. She left to meet friends.

I came home and he was playing guitar in the studio downstairs. Another beautiful, complicated arpeggio fills the house. I made a healthy dinner. He came up, asked about DD and ate with me and we both watched the wire walker traverse Niagara falls in amazement on TV. Then I said I need to lay down and went to bed. In the library.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I dont keylog the PC because I am a computer guru and can find anything out if I want without spyware.


You lost me here (and I develop software for better part of two decades now). There's only so much you can recover from browser cache and session cookies.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

snap said:


> You lost me here (and I develop software for better part of two decades now). There's only so much you can recover from browser cache and session cookies.


[Hijack]
Yeah but a low level scan of the drive platters with the right software can yield the binary strings without the flags in the MBR, after that its just a matter of having a CPU fast enough to make randomly compiling the binary strings into usable data not take months.

Or, she could be incrementally imaging the disk, catching all the changes in the process. 

Or a million and one other ways to mine data...

Yay! I got my geek on for the day [/hijack]


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

snap said:


> You lost me here (and I develop software for better part of two decades now). There's only so much you can recover from browser cache and session cookies.


What I mean is, nothing is ever deleted, unless it is overwritten. I'm not talking about the cache, but any number of things are possible. I mean, long after you clean out the cache and the cookies. Way deep.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Paladin said:


> [Hijack]
> Yeah but a low level scan of the drive platters with the right software can yield the binary strings without the flags in the MBR, after that its just a matter of having a CPU fast enough to make randomly compiling the binary strings into usable data not take months.
> 
> Or, she could be incrementally imaging the disk, catching all the changes in the process.
> ...


Yes. This. (and more).


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Also, I would no longer tolerate having a PC in my house that I was not an administrator of.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

We talked today, our weekly meeting..... was supposed to be about the budget and I broke down. Brought up the drink with the boss. He said all the right things. I wont do it again without calling, I was wrong, I'm sorry you had to worry, etc., etc., etc.

Then I finally said, "Its not about having a drink with the boss....I don't care, you can go out for a drink whenever you want! Its about you acting like our marriage is just a set of rules.....Like its a graph with gold stars for good days and black demerits for not calling when you're at the bar......"

Whatever. I am tired of being the cop in our reconciliation. I told him that its about how I feel being your wife. 

"I feel like something to be avoided, lied to or dismissed as too emotional or blah, blah, blah. We used to be on the same team. Now we are opposed. I miss you. I really miss being you and me against the world. Now it is just you and me against each other. I don't like the person I have become. I don't want to fight about this trivial crap anymore."

I don't know how I could be more clear. This is the definition of a spouse trying to talk to their partner before they call it quits. This is the thing I wanted HIM to do before he went outside the marriage to solve his/our problems and/or meet his needs.

Time for bed.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> The thing is, I never have really snooped! I have checked the phone records a couple times, have access to the emails but dont get into them, etc. But he knows this.
> 
> I have never put out a VAR or GPS. I have no keyloggers. I'm still working on verifying the official story, sort of. Meaning I am still trying to get to the bottom of why he chooses to solve his problem with me by seeking out other women. If he can't get a handle on if THAT can change/why it happened/how will it NOT happen on the future when we hit a rough spot.......then what's the point of going on?
> 
> ...


The faster you get to the TOTAL TRUTH, the faster you heal.

Period.

No exceptions.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

This thread is pis*ing me off. I mean it. I feel your pain, I hear your pain and others that have written have voiced the same pain. Our WS' have ripped out our hearts, stomped them into the ground and somehow many of them blame us. Listen to me they blame us. Not all but many blame us. Mine is saying it is because I looked at porn because all the freaken dozen other excuses she got called on as not making sense but this one she got some traction on by her IC and some family members who look at anybody who even thinks of looking at porn as evil and worse then cheating. So she got validated and nobody challenged her. So what is your WS really thinking? You did it, you made them do it. Because many WS's feel this way deep down. They justify their cheating by blame-shifting. You were cold. You did not give them enough stroking. You really don't understand them. Blah, blah blah. And the biggest problem is they don't have the guts to tell you what they are really thinking.

And there are many here who get it. Bandit45, zippy, cantthinkstraight, Lordmayhem and many others.

My one wish is that someone would get to my wife who would be able to tell her the way it is. There was someone here who left TAM for a while who was willing to do that but the circumstances did not allow that to take place before they left. 

In many cases I really do believe that a good intervention would work, where the WS is given the low down and coached but many folks go to IC or MC with professionals who have no clue. I understand that it is not all about us (the BS'ers) but what we are really saying is give us a freaken break. Understand us and give us what the he*l we need.

cantthinkstraight says it, the faster you get the total truth the faster you heal. Period. No exception.

I would not have got the VARs for the first time a few weeks ago if my wife would just answer a few more questions. 

In my case my wife has made progress. Big leaps. But it still is not enough and for me honestly, if she would have done 75% less then she did and really focused on what I have been saying I need and want, we would be leap years ahead. For me this is the biggest issue. Give me what I ask for, not what you think I want or need, and show me, freaken show me that I am the person you want to grow old with, because somehow, somewhere it is not all there. Yes, I get it that the WS's are scared that we may leave them. We might even months or years down the road. They created this. And that is their legacy. I don't like the snooping, the checking, the anger, etc. I do not like who I have become either. I was never like this. And they don't get it or if they do they do not tell us enough times for it to sink into our skulls that they do get it.

Sorry, I am just pis*ed off tonight, but I have been very sweet to the wife on the phone. Just wish I could hire a freaken A coach for my wife so she could learn some crap of what to really say and what to really do.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

One time Julie went into the basement to text her co-worker. I followed her and asked her why she was hiding it from me. 

She said the same thing your husband said. "Because I knew you'd be upset." 

If you knew it would upset me... the key is to not do it. Don't do it and hide it. Ugh.

I'd wager he's broke NC.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

WhiteMousse said:


> One time Julie went into the basement to text her co-worker. I followed her and asked her why she was hiding it from me.
> 
> She said the same thing your husband said. "Because I knew you'd be upset."
> 
> ...


My H said the same thing.....and now I'm moving out in less than 2 weeks...


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

You know, I just wanna quit. I don't think I can get past it. In our session I was able to say -- I don't feel safe being in bed with you -- I don't feel safe buying a house with you -- I don't feel safe giving you my heart again, I feel like -- If I do -- Something even worse will happen....

At the same time I was understanding all the issues he dealt with growing up. A couple days ago, his nephew got into trouble. His Mom was on the phone saying all the things about the nephew that he had heard when he was a teenager. The counselors are trying to say he has Narcissism (what 15 y/o doesn't?) But I said "Gee, THAT sounds familiar!"

Its like I had an out of body experience when I heard myself say this. I thought, OMG did I just say that out loud?! I felt terrible. I could not believe I was so thoughtless. I saw all at once what his childhood was like, exactly what his nephew is going through. (My H's parents are raising him). There's no way out. You're doomed once you start rebelling. I felt bad for his nephew, his Mom and him. I started to realize how his family handles conflict.

Then there's my way. The way my family grew up. We're both escapists. During my rebellious years, I acted out, and would take off. He went more inside himself, self-imposed emotional exile. This is how we are acting now. When stressed.

Anyway I started off at our meeting apologizing for the "sounds familiar" comment (but we managed to get into an argument anyway). I hate this person I have become.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> This thread is pis*ing me off. I mean it. I feel your pain, I hear your pain and others that have written have voiced the same pain. Our WS' have ripped out our hearts, stomped them into the ground and somehow many of them blame us. Listen to me they blame us. Not all but many blame us. Mine is saying it is because I looked at porn because all the freaken dozen other excuses she got called on as not making sense but this one she got some traction on by her IC and some family members who look at anybody who even thinks of looking at porn as evil and worse then cheating. So she got validated and nobody challenged her. So what is your WS really thinking? You did it, you made them do it. Because many WS's feel this way deep down. They justify their cheating by blame-shifting. You were cold. You did not give them enough stroking. You really don't understand them. Blah, blah blah. And the biggest problem is they don't have the guts to tell you what they are really thinking.
> 
> And there are many here who get it. Bandit45, zippy, cantthinkstraight, Lordmayhem and many others.
> 
> ...


OMG, Thor, the porn is not the reason your wife cheated!! If that were a reason I would be a WS!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Another weekend..... Last MC session started off good but ended bad, with both of us fighting. Next day he went to work without a word. When he comes home I am asleep and he doesn't wake me. (mind you, our affection now consists of his kisses when he leaves and comes home and a goodnight kiss, so If one of them is missing, I notice it.)

Ok, whatever, I get up and make dinner and he has just small talk while he is immersed in an electronics project. We eat and he goes back to his project after. I don't want to sit by myself and watch the news so I go into the study and stream Through the Wormhole and lay down to watch it. I fall asleep. He usually comes in to watch with me or at least kiss me goodnight. Again, this doesn't happen.

I wake up at 12:30 am, the house is dark and he is in our bed. I feel tears well up. Then anger. I march into the big bedroom and say:

"Why didn't you say goodnight to me?"

"I was going to but you were asleep"

"You have been avoiding me all day, I told you I don't want another weekend full of avoiding and silence and/or fighting! And it's happening anyway!"

"Look, I'm tired. I had a long day and I don't feel good. I don't need you in here b!cthing me out."

This enrages me and we start fighting for the next 15 minutes. This culminates in him telling me (him laying in bed with me at the open door, livid and crying), "Just STOP. You're acting like a 5 year old. Stop flapping your arms around and b!tching me out. Why don't you just go back in your room and go to bed!"

"Because I don't want to live apart, I don't want to be bossed around and told I can't sleep in my own bed. I don't want to live in a sexless, affection-less marriage where I am HATED"

I know, he's right, I DO sound like a child. I should have just layed low and enjoyed the peace and quiet. I just started a new birth control pill and I just know he's going to blame my outburst on "hormones".

Why do I keep doing this to myself? It just seems like he's gone, emotionally. But if I say this, that I feel alone, 90% of the time, even if he's there, he says we are just going through a rough spot and everything is OK.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Oh My Gosh it hurts my heart to read my own words here. How pathetic. Laying into him over not getting my good night kiss. Sorry you guys had to read this. Breathe. Time for another Arrogant [email protected] Ale!


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