# is it cheating>



## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

I have been married for 20 years - dated 6 before that. We are in a BAD place and have been for 6 or so years. He says he loves me and wants to be married but there are things that we just do not see eye to eye about - mainly his pantyhose fetish which is a total turn off. Anyway - I saw a text on his phone that made me curious - no contact name - just the number. As I looked back at them he has been flirting with a woman he works with. He says things like it was nice to see your pretty face, you look fabulous as always, I thought of you all weekend. They also have gone to lunch several times. He claims they are innocent and inside jokes - but I do not read them that way. He does not say things like that to me - or at least has not for a LONG time. I feel betrayed - am I over reacting??


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

yes it's cheating.

a married man should not carry on an on going flirting text string. joking? sure.......


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Nope, I'd be pissed as hell. Do you want out of the marriage? How often are you two having sex?


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

its been a year


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

You have been betrayed... you know this and would be best to draw your line with him now.

Cause and effect, you do this and I will do that.

"Husband, if you continue to betray us and I will divorce you"

Keep it simple and follow through, you have to mean what you say.

Free yourself of this pain as only you can... that you have lived with this the last year and over 6 years has allowed him to take advantage of your relationship and your trust.

Be true to yourself first, believe in yourself first, be mindful of yourself first... if he can follow you, you have set your best foundation for hoping for the best (he will get help and end his deceit) or preparing for the worst (your unhealthy marriage will end, although this might be preparing for the best as well).

Be strong, deserving better will not happen on it's own.


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

Once I would have agreed he's cheating, but after years of my wife ignoring my desires, I'm not so sure. My wife refuses to talk about sex or celebrate if we have a great sexual experience. She basically acts like nothing happened. So is it wrong to talk about sexual things with another woman if wife refuses? Would it be different if he talked with a man sexually?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Wait...

This isn't about "Cheating" or betrayal, it's about the state of your marriage. Whatever you call the other stuff is irrelevant. It's important that you recognize that what the 2 of you have isn't good and hasn't been in many years. That's fertile ground for all kinds of bad stuff.

You need to address the root of the problem here: Your marriage. Forget the other stuff for now, and call a psychologist and start talking.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

I am very open to having sex with him. He "lost his desire" so he says several years back. I have asked him to take V etc but he is the one not really interested in sex. We had a GREAT sexlife for the first 15 years of our marriage until I discovered his secret pantyhose wearing fetish - that is when things really changed for us.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

Is it OK to ask this woman what is going on? if they are having an affair or if she is interested in him?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Your H is fishing and in the process of looking to cheat. No sex in year? What is the story?


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Unicus said:


> Wait...
> 
> This isn't about "Cheating" or betrayal, it's about the state of your marriage. Whatever you call the other stuff is irrelevant. It's important that you recognize that what the 2 of you have isn't good and hasn't been in many years. That's fertile ground for all kinds of bad stuff.
> 
> You need to address the root of the problem here: Your marriage. Forget the other stuff for now, and call a psychologist and start talking.


Anna, I'm quoting myself here b/c I think it's important for you to read and understand what I've said.


That his panty hose issue freaked you out is worthy of discussion. First, it's only a "Fetish" if the object is NECESSARY and REQUIRED for sexual gratification. If you guys had "Great" sex before without it, by definition, its not a fetish...he performed adequately without it.

So, the real issue is what exactly is it about his attraction to panty hose that freaked you out? By your account, his sharing that with you was a turning point. Maybe you should revisit whatever it was that caused such a strong reaction, if not here, than at least within yourself.

And NO!...it's not Ok at this point to ask this other woman what's going on.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

annarara said:


> Is it OK to ask this woman what is going on? if they are having an affair or if she is interested in him?


Yes. Find out if she's married and get her husband's name. You may need to contact him.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Yes, it is cheating. He has very weak or no existent boundaries. :frown2:

Bottom line - Marriage counseling. But for that to work, he must stop seeing her immediately. No chats, lunches, small talk etc. None. 

And even if there is no sex in your house, even if YOU refuse him sex, it is still cheating. If either of you find the marriage unacceptable, separate or divorce, then see other people. 

At a minimum this is emotional cheating. 

I cannot offer advice on the pantyhose thing. I don't get that. :scratchhead:


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Regardless of the reasons, if one redirects attention as such outside the relationship without the consent of their partner, it is deceitful and betrays the value of commitment... it is cheating, there is no vagueness to this in my eyes however judgmental that may be... I'll meditate on that later to ensure my values are sound. 

If one has other problems, they must be addressed, but without the dishonesty cheating brings.

Most people will not live with a liar like that nor should they if they want to remain on a healthy path... one cannot grow without self-respect and to live with such fragility that dishonesty brings breaks all other supporting feelings.

If the husband chooses the better path and stops the betrayal, then the healing can begin for the couple.

If the husband does not choose the better path and continues the betrayal, then the due course can happen and healing can begin for the individual.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Yes. Find out if she's married and get her husband's name. You may need to contact him.


NO!

The goal is to repair the relationship, contacting her at this time will only antagonize the situation by 1) Humiliating him, and 2) Bring other issues into it, like snooping, etc.

There's always time for destructive actions, but not at the very beginning.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

he was not open about it - I found a huge bag of them hidden - and he continued to lie about them. He uses them with himself not me


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

annarara said:


> he was not open about it - I found a huge bag of them hidden - and he continued to lie about them. He uses them with himself not me


Huh?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Unicus said:


> NO!
> 
> The goal is to repair the relationship, contacting her at this time will only antagonize the situation by 1) Humiliating him, and 2) Bring other issues into it, like snooping, etc.
> 
> There's always time for destructive actions, but not at the very beginning.


BL said "may" need to contact him, not to do it yet. 

If OP has good evidence of an affair, especially a PA, contacting the OWH is the recommended course of action to compare notes/stories and to try to break the participants out of the fog. It is not done to be vindictive or revenge but done to save the marriage. 

No personal experience, but the folks here seem to know what works best. Years and years of seeing hundreds of these types of threads play out to affairs.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

she's single


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

When you first discovered the pantyhose thing, how did you address it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> BL said "may" need to contact him, not to do it yet.
> 
> If OP has good evidence of an affair, especially a PA, contacting the OWH is the recommended course of action.


Recommended by whom? And for what purpose?

There are many ways if addressing suspected infidelity, but it is ever hardly a good idea to say or do something that is blatantly destructive.

Infidelity is a bad thing for sure, and the participants are not entitled to any courtesies, but being wronged (or even more so, suspecting of being wronged) doesn't then entitle one to be as irresponsible and destructive as those involved in the affair.

Unless one is after mere revenge.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Unicus said:


> Recommended by whom? And for what purpose?


Stay here for six months and learn.

Me, I knew nothing six months ago. Wish I found this place 6 YEARS ago.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

"When you first discovered the pantyhose thing, how did you address it?"

I was shocked and confused and not sure if he was a crossdresser or what it was all about. I was turned off -


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Stay here for six months and learn.


What I've learned took a lot more than 6 months.

My advice is correct. And its based on a lot more credible data than an interweb site.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"There are many ways if addressing suspected infidelity, but it is ever hardly a good idea to say or do something that is blatantly destructive." Why would you consider this 'blatantly destructive'? 

Never coddle a wayward. If her husband was worried about being humiliated, he wouldn't be clowning around with a coworker. Not to mention wearing pantyhose. She is not a doormat. She will not be begging him to pick her.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> "There are many ways if addressing suspected infidelity, but it is ever hardly a good idea to say or do something that is blatantly destructive." Why would you consider this 'blatantly destructive'?
> 
> Never coddle a wayward. If her husband was worried about being humiliated, he wouldn't be clowning around with a coworker. Not to mention wearing pantyhose. She is not a doormat. She will not be begging him to pick her.


Why would I consider calling the other person/spouse destructive? Are you kidding?

First, make darn sure of your facts before you make that call. Second, have a plan for addressing your spouse when they come at you for snooping and then calling. Third, have a clear plan to leave, both the shared space AND the marriage. Your actions often become the issue, rather than the cheaters.

There's understandable rage when one finds out about this. But, what one does with the information(and the accompanying rage) should be carefully thought out..not easy when one is enraged...what's the goal?

If you have an iota of hope of repairing the marriage or at least sparing yourself the inevitable back lash, then it's often better to respond to the spouse and their behavior directly with them and without involving other people.

And perhaps had the OP responded differently to the panty hose....it's just panty hose!...he wouldn't have needed to find an alternate source of excitement. That's not at all a justification for his behavior, but it's important to put things into context.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

She's trying to make darn sure of her facts because her husband is deceiving her. You seem to think that she is desperate to save the marriage. Why? Their marriage has been on the outs for six years. Whether it's pantyhose or lipstick, she has a right to her feelings on the subject and saying "it's just panty hose!" illustrates that you don't have a clue.

One could always call and say "Hey, I've noticed that you and my husband are getting thick as thieves. What's up? Planning a surprise party?".

Currently, he's no prize and she has a right to know what he's up to so she can determine if she wants to stick around for more years of no sex.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

FYI - I posted a long discussion a few years back on the pantyhose thing... it was really helpful to read other people's thoughts. A search on "pantyhose on my husband" will bring up the very lengthy thread on that part of our issue. I think that everything boils down to he is very secretive and hides things. This is just one more thing that he is doing that is secretive and destructive = I do love him, I do want to be married but I feel that I deserve better. I want intimacy again and a partner that can be open and honest with me.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Unicus said:


> What I've learned took a lot more than 6 months.
> 
> My advice is correct. And its based on a lot more credible data than an interweb site.


For OP's benefit, please identify why your advice should be given a priority over the other posters.

If you are a profressional please state so as that is a big help.

I normally clarify my "experience"

[Edited to remove personal details]

Through the help of this forum, more so than my individual counselor, All due to the people here at this interweb site.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Never coddle a wayward. If her husband was worried about being humiliated, he wouldn't be clowning around with a coworker. Not to mention wearing pantyhose. She is not a doormat. She will not be begging him to pick her.


Because of the downward spiral of time (the last 6 years) and the familiarity of the behavior by the wayward, contempt has been sown into the relationship. Because this has gone on so long, I would say this needs to be addressed with strength as you say or you will get neither the attention nor the desired results.

Side thought... perhaps with the fetish, the pantyhose may be trophies as well since he is communicating outside the relationship , only a professional will get to the root of such.

He will need to set aside the pride that is breaking him for the help he needs to repair himself, then the relationship if that is possible as the behaviors sound like quite a hurdle.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> For OP's benefit, please identify why your advice should be given a priority over the other posters.
> 
> If you are a profressional please state so as that is a big help.
> 
> ...


There is humility here... easy to find respect in these words.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> She's trying to make darn sure of her facts because her husband is deceiving her. You seem to think that she is desperate to save the marriage. Why? Their marriage has been on the outs for six years. Whether it's pantyhose or lipstick, she has a right to her feelings on the subject and saying "it's just panty hose!" illustrates that you don't have a clue.
> 
> One could always call and say "Hey, I've noticed that you and my husband are getting thick as thieves. What's up? Planning a surprise party?".
> 
> Currently, he's no prize and she has a right to know what he's up to so she can determine if she wants to stick around for more years of no sex.


I don't know if she's "Desperate" to save her marriage, nor did I say as much. I strongly suspect she's after something here, and something other than simply leaving. 

It IS just panty hose. That you cannot understand that makes you the clueless one. In the safety of a secure relationship, folks explore and accept all kinds of sexual things with their partner, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or involve minors or small farm animals. Yes, she is entitled to her feelings and they should be respected, but so should his. In a solid relationship, no one person's needs are more important than the other's, things are open to discussion without judgement. That didn't happen, and to dismiss it without seeing it as a blunder is a mistake. What exactly are you supporting here?

Lastly, offering advice isn't some competitive event. You're talking about real issues with real people who are vulnerable. Sometimes, there ARE right answers and clearly wrong ones..you can spot the former by the absence of inserting ones very unique and highly personal life experiences (or, not even that) and generalizing it onto the current situation, or just saying things that have no context or meaning to the current situation. That happens a lot here, and you do not have to have an advanced degree to spot it.

Now, I'd like to hear back from the OP.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

OP, I perused your pantyhose thread. It appears your counselor's advice to just stop thinking about it isn't working. Whether one is a trained psychologist or a trained monkey, telling you that as far as fetishes go, this is a mild one so just accept it and get over it is not helpful (sorry, SamuraiJack). 

Love can be blind to many things but when something affects your attraction to your mate then the love will suffer. Your husband has made the situation infinitely worse by denying you intimacy. The fact that he flatters and lunches with a coworker is like a slap in your face.

Do you want to save this marriage? Why, because he has been secretive with you throughout your marriage. Under what circumstances would you consider him to be an open and trustworthy mate? Would you be able to view him as a man, again?


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

Unicus said:


> I don't know if she's "Desperate" to save her marriage, nor did I say as much. I strongly suspect she's after something here, and something other than simply leaving.
> 
> INow, I'd like to hear back from the OP.


I am not desperate, but I do love him and we have a good life together and have 2 kids. The pantyhose issue was a discovery - it was not something that was talked about. He had a hidden secret for years. I do not believe they were trophies as someone suggested he used them with himself. For me it demasculated him for me - right or wrong (of me) it was not attractive to me and I did not understand it. we did counseling together and I found out after about a year that he had been lying saying he was not wearing them anymore but he was because I again found a large amount of them with visible indication that they were used with himself. This really put a barrier in the marriage in that it brought in such secrecy. I told him when I found them that this could be an opportunity for us to grow as a couple - if he could be open and honest with me - or it could be the end if he turned only to himself. 

The interactions with the coworker are disturbing because he is not like that with me anymore but was. I don't think that they have been physical (yet)


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

Do you want to save this marriage? Why, because he has been secretive with you throughout your marriage. Under what circumstances would you consider him to be an open and trustworthy mate? Would you be able to view him as a man, again?[/QUOTE]



I go back and forth. Things seemed to be on the right track when I discovered the texts -


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

If intimacy stopped once you found out about the pantyhose thing, it's likely something you two need to address to move forward. Does he wear the pantyhose or just like when you do? If it's the latter I don't see the big deal about indulging in it with him, wear some stockings and heels and go to town.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Unicus said:


> NO!
> 
> *The goal is to repair the relationship,* contacting her at this time will only antagonize the situation by 1) Humiliating him, and 2) Bring other issues into it,* like snooping, etc.*
> 
> There's always time for destructive actions, *but not at the very beginning.*


Your advice couldn't be more wrong in this case IMO. In the beginning is the best time to nip this cheating in the bud. Exposure kills secrecy! If this woman is married, she is cheating on her SO too. That person has a right to know what she is doing. 

Snooping has to begin. She needs access to all of his passwords. It is a must. 

Exactly, these things need to be done yesterday in order to *" to repair the relationship"*. Her and her cheating husband's relationship!


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

knobcreek - he wears them - with himself when I am not home or under his work pants when he is not with me.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

bibi 1031 - she is single


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Symptom, not disease.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Symptom, not disease.


not sure what you mean by that?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

annarara said:


> bibi 1031 - she is single


I know, thank you. I read that after I posted my first thread...Sorry.

You have a right to defend your marriage against this EA, plain and simple. Another part of nipping this EA in the bud is to have your husband write a letter to this woman letting her know in no uncertain terms that their discussions/emails are detrimental to his marriage and they are disrespectful towards his wife. 

He needs to do this along with all the other things that come with owning his $hit and letting true reconciliation begin. He needs to stop the secrecy about everything! Trust has been broken in more than one way. He needs to be transparent or he is paying lip service to wanting to stay married.

Not an easy task, but your 20 year marriage, your love for him, and your children deserve it.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

bibi 1031 - When I found the texts - and after I confronted him, I sent her 2 texts from his phone - 

the first - 
As a reminder I am a married man. My wife found the texts that we have been sending and she is pissed

the second -
My wife would prefer that I do not flirt or have lunch with single women

From me (but his phone). I can tell him to tell her but then I have to trust he does. I feel in reading through the texts that he is more interested than her.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

annarara said:


> bibi 1031 - When I found the texts - and after I confronted him, I sent her 2 texts from his phone -
> 
> the first -
> As a reminder I am a married man. My wife found the texts that we have been sending and she is pissed
> ...


At this point, he cannot have lunch with any woman, single or married.

As for the no contact, it is normally suggested that the H and W draft it together but that W sends it. 

If text, you can agree on the wording but YOU physically hit the send button to make sure it goes.

If letter, you can agree on the wording but YOU physically mail it to make sure it goes.

That is how the trust issue is addressed.


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## AngelHeart888 (Jun 21, 2016)

It certainly doesn't sound innocent. Especially when you say that he doesn't say things like that to you.
Does he NORMALLY speak that way to female friends?


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

I have never heard him speak that way - no


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

annarara said:


> The pantyhose issue was a discovery - it was not something that was talked about. He had a hidden secret for years...
> 
> He used them with himself. For me it demasculated him for me - right or wrong (of me) it was not attractive to me and I did not understand it. - if he could be open and honest with me - or it could be the end if he turned only to himself.


I hate to play Internet psychologist but your disgust at discovering his pantyhose fetish likely drove him away from intimacy with you. He didn't trust you to tell because he was likely ashamed, and the reaction you gave was the exact reaction he expected and decided to keep it his secret.

I don't have a pantyhose fetish or any fetish, but I do have some fantasies that are a bit out there, nothing crazy or disgusting, just something that you would read in Penthouse letters or something. But as far as fetishes go a pantyhose one doesn't seem too bad, he could be into poop or other really nasty stuff...

Now there's no sex and he's texting a woman. Once sex stops one or both are going to start looking for it elsewhere. It doesn't excuse it, but you can expect it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

annarara said:


> I am very open to having sex with him. He "lost his desire" so he says several years back. I have asked him to take V etc but he is the one not really interested in sex. We had a GREAT sexlife for the first 15 years of our marriage until I discovered his secret pantyhose wearing fetish - that is when things really changed for us.


So he likes wearing pantyhose.

That's obviously a problem for you.

Why? Is it because it is what it is, or because he kept it a secret from you?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

annarara said:


> bibi 1031 - When I found the texts - and after I confronted him, I sent her 2 texts from his phone -
> 
> the first -
> As a reminder I am a married man. My wife found the texts that we have been sending and she is pissed
> ...


You did real good with the texts. He needs to continue to allow you access to his devices for as long as you need them to help build trust again. 

I can't help with the pantyhose thing, but as far as the EA thing, that's another story. This site as well as others has really opened up my eyes as to how we as BS can help rebuild our damaged relationship to a stronger, healthier marriage with better communication, boundaries and trust!

I failed miserably when this happened to me, but I learned a lot for future relationships in my life. You still have a chance, and that makes me so happy. I truly hope your marriage succeeds!:smile2:


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"But as far as fetishes go a pantyhose one doesn't seem too bad, he could be into poop or other really nasty stuff..."

See? Not helpful. I wouldn't see anything wrong with you taking your wife to dinner knowing she's wearing a strap-on and her skirt is sticking out 8 inches.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Generally speaking, if you have to ask the question, the answer is probably "Yes".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

knobcreek said:


> I hate to play Internet psychologist but your disgust at discovering his pantyhose fetish likely drove him away from intimacy with you. He didn't trust you to tell because he was likely ashamed, and the reaction you gave was the exact reaction he expected and decided to keep it his secret.
> 
> I don't have a pantyhose fetish or any fetish, but I do have some fantasies that are a bit out there, nothing crazy or disgusting, just something that you would read in Penthouse letters or something. But as far as fetishes go a pantyhose one doesn't seem too bad, he could be into poop or other really nasty stuff...
> 
> Now there's no sex and he's texting a woman. Once sex stops one or both are going to start looking for it elsewhere. It doesn't excuse it, but you can expect it.


So, this is all HER fault?? Really??

OP...he is cheating. Period. He is choosing his fetish and other women over intimacy with his wife, not sure why you want to stay with this man.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> So, this is all HER fault?? Really??
> 
> OP...he is cheating. Period. He is choosing his fetish and other women over intimacy with his wife, not sure why you want to stay with this man.


No it's not all her fault at all, the potential EA is her husbands fault. But reading the timeline and her disgust at discovering his fetish, her saying it was a major turn-off, and emasculated him to her, was likely a major factor in the no sex issue.

She's not at fault for the EA but could potentially be very much at fault for the non-existent sex-life. Either one will destroy a marriage, pick your poison.



Blondilocks said:


> See? Not helpful. I wouldn't see anything wrong with you taking your wife to dinner knowing she's wearing a strap-on and her skirt is sticking out 8 inches.


I assume you can't see the pantyhose when her husband wears them. It's not my cup of tea but I don't really see a big deal with it. It seems rather innocent as far as sexual kinks go. If my wife wanted to wear a strap-on that couldn't be seen while at dinner have at it, as long as she doesn't expect me to bend over for it lol...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It doesn't matter if you see a big deal about it or not. You're not the OP and you're not married to him. It isn't your place to minimize her feelings.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> It doesn't matter if you see a big deal about it or not. You're not the OP and you're not married to him. It isn't your place to minimize her feelings.


I'm allowed to frame it and put it into perspective for the OP. I get that she was shocked, but in the grand scheme it's not all that shocking.

But bottom line her husband has this fetish, it is NOT going anywhere, he has it for life. So the OP can figure out how to make it work, or not.

OP, wear a pair of pantyhose all day, take them off and toss them to your husband, he'll likely be putty in your hands for life.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Where is @jld when you need her.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

On another note we wore pantyhose in the Marine's on long hikes (25 milers+) or in the field to keep bugs, particularly ticks and spiders out of our crotches, and the hose under the socks really helped reduce friction in your boots as well as your thighs helping with blisters and chafing. Mostly I cut them and use them beneath my socks only.

So there is a use case for men wearing pantyhose, and it doesn't get much more masculine than that!


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

knobcreek said:


> On another note we wore pantyhose in the Marine's on long hikes (25 milers+) or in the field to keep bugs, particularly ticks and spiders out of our crotches, and the hose under the socks really helped reduce friction in your boots as well as your thighs helping with blisters and chafing. Mostly I cut them and use them beneath my socks only.
> 
> So there is a use case for men wearing pantyhose, and it doesn't get much more masculine than that!


And you guys make fun of squids. 

My wife would be appalled if she caught me wearing pantyhose. It would definitely kill her desire, at least for the most part. No point for her to pretend it doesn't, and no excuse for him to invest in another woman without, you know, divorcing first.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

He wears pantyhose?

And you are still married to him?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Sorry OP but I'm surprised your marriage lasted the past 6 years. 

You don't respect your H and frankly you aren't sexually attracted to him now that you know of his fetish.

For his part, his fear of judgement was realized and he has to hide his true sexuality from you.

Though you seem to want him to initiate sexually with you, I doubt he can do that without knowing how you view him. I imagine I'd need V to stay erect knowing my partner viewed me as an emasculated man.

I'm sorry you're here. I have no doubt he is out of line in his communications even if he's just an orbiter and fawning fool like blueinbr was (sorry blue). It doesn't make it right but no sex and no admiration from a spouse can make many men weak, needy and act foolishly around other women. Blue attests to this.

He's wrong. No doubt. But your M is kind of screwed up at this point.

You're entitled to your opinion about his fetish, but I'd observe, as an outsider that you have 2 stark choices here; truly get over the fetish and make it safe for him to share this with you; or make plans to wind this down so both of you can find someone who floats your boat. 

To me the EA isn't the issue - it only has to be stopped if you can accept his fetish and he can open his sexuality to you. Truthfully, I don't see that happening. Therefore, if you're ready to throw in the towel on accepting his quirkiness then maybe use the EA as a means to move on. As in "I think it's time I freed you to pursue OW fully and out in the open. You're attraction to her and flirting aren't going to fly with me and I am not ok with your fetish or your secrecy. It's time to move on."


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> On another note we wore pantyhose in the Marine's on long hikes (25 milers+) or in the field to keep bugs, particularly ticks and spiders out of our crotches, and the hose under the socks really helped reduce friction in your boots as well as your thighs helping with blisters and chafing. Mostly I cut them and use them beneath my socks only.
> 
> So there is a use case for men wearing pantyhose, and it doesn't get much more masculine than that!


He's wearing them for the sexual thrill. Maybe you guys were, too.

If you are still using them beneath your socks, buy knee highs. Cheaper.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Does the woman he is having the EA with know about the pantyhose fetish?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Obviously his kink for pantyhose use does not sit well with you. Did you see a professional to help you sort out why?

Did he see an IC as well? This is what started your downhill spiral. It needs to be addressed by professionals IMO. 

The EA is another issue that needs to be cut out too.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

jld said:


> He wears pantyhose?
> 
> And you are still married to him?


yes at this point I am still married - he claims to have stopped but from what I have read that is nearly impossible so it has been about a year since he has been "caught" with any. For those that say for me to wear them - it is him wearing them and then pleasuring himself. It does not involve me. And it creeps me out - and I really think he should have told me about it before I married him - but that did not happen. 20 years of marriage and 2 kids later = still with him but not happily. It saddens me that he can say things to someone else that he does not say to me. In my opinion I am way more attractive but that is not always what does it for someone. I did not stop having desire for sex and did not cut him off from sex. When I found them a year ago I asked him to seek therapy and move to the guest room until we could get the relationship back on track -


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

If a major theme all over the forum is how men need to be more "manly" and "Alpha" to get female sexual interest and attention, how do you expect her to just put aside and ignore what to her makes her husband seem anything but that? 

It might be a mild fetish in the grand scheme of fetishes, but in some ways that was a bait and switch on the husband's part. She wasn't willingly signing up for a guy with a pantyhose fetish she caught him at it after he denied it. There was no open and honest communication from the beginning of their relationship. He hid who he really was. And she's just expected to deal with it, because it's "not that bad." And you can say that he hid it because he didn't want to be judged. But women who hide their sexual pasts for the same reason get thrown under the bus on TAM on a regular basis - that it's not your choice to make that kind of decision for someone else.

So the EA is another branch the same tree, there's been a major issue with honesty here from the beginning. And a counselor rugsweeping that and telling her to "just get over it" is a sham. I'd recommend another counselor. 

And I'm just going to throw this out here - but there's no contact name, just a number. Do you personally know this person? Have you ever met her? Or is the word that it's a woman from work based on his word only. Because if I knew my husband had a thing for wearing lingerie and was texting randoms for hot texts I'm not sure him texting a woman from work or even texting a woman would be my only concern.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> I
> 
> And I'm just going to throw this out here - but there's no contact name, just a number. Do you personally know this person? Have you ever met her?
> 
> I looked the number up and know who it is. Looked at her facebook profile - and am sure it is a woman.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> He's wearing them for the sexual thrill. Maybe you guys were, too.
> 
> If you are still using them beneath your socks, buy knee highs. Cheaper.


And economic advice to boot... this place is quite generous no matter where one looks. :grin2:


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

"creeps her out" is a pretty heavy emotion...

I'm all about compassionate understanding, but to have to be forced in the end to accept something in a relationship is not truly healthy for either.

Correct me if I'm wrong annarara, but this was not anything you were aware of for many years and only known of several years back... I just read your first post. He has chosen poorly with the EA and trust is deeply broken, the fetish is only a poor choice because it seems valued over you, he doesn't care how it bothers you and is willing to lie (another deeply broken trust) but not willing to discuss in depth.

One of my most steadfast sayings is: "There are three solutions to every problem: accept it, change it, or leave it.", here you do have options... 

Make a list of all things in your relationship, and when you finish your list of positive and negatives that keep YOU mindful and healthy, then apply one of the three solutions.

You don't have to figure it all out at once, it only feels like it.

Three solutions per each item on the list and balance it at the end... then you can choose wisely and take the step that promotes forgiveness and removes resentment and contempt, then your path will be more clear.

Peace be with you


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@annarara did you consider my post? I was not trying to be harsh, but I do believe you must accept your spouse as they are, warts and all, or decide it is not possible.

I am making no judgements here. But I do believe this is who he is. I also suspect he is either ashamed and therefore won't get help, or accepts this is who he is and doesn't need help. Frankly the latter is preferable IMO.

Asking him to move to another room until he addressed the problem isn't a realistic solution and is t healthy for your marriage. You are pushing him away and setting conditions for acceptance. I don't think that's healthy or fair.

There are things about my W that I hate (due to her upbringing) and I'm positive there are many things about me that my wife dislikes (she's not a hater). I haven't given up on the notion that these things can change, but my love, compassion, affection and acceptance are not contingent on them.

I still see the EA as trivial - like worrying about your heart rate while plummeting to your death off a cliff. Yes it's bad, but the state of your marriage and intimacy are the real problem.

In no way am I saying you have to accept as a husband who you H really is. But if you cant, then for your sake and his, start talking about moving on. Who knows, maybe you'll be better as friends and coparents that as H and W


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> the fetish is only a poor choice because it *seems* valued over you,


I think seems is a bit mild. He continued with the fetish and masturbated with it. He has orgasms with his fetish. The fetish replaced her and their intimacy!

She was left out in the cold...that is no "seems," that is! IMO

She states that she has not seen the fetish in about a year now. So his addiction to getting high (having an orgasm with his fetish) has been now replaced with an EA in the workplace! :surprise:

The EA is now replacing the fetish that replaced her!

These two things are very much related and intertwined. He is getting his jollies from other things/other people instead of his wife.

Big problems in this marriage indeed. I think @Emerging Buddhist post where I got my quote has some very sound advice. His lists will help you decide what course of action is more convenient to you.

You have not really had a good marriage is quite a while. You were lied to since the beginning and the lies and deceit continue til this day.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> I hate to play Internet psychologist but *your disgust at discovering his pantyhose fetish likely drove him away from intimacy with you. He didn't trust you to tell because he was likely ashamed, and the reaction you gave was the exact reaction he expected and decided to keep it his secret.*
> 
> I don't have a pantyhose fetish or any fetish, but I do have some fantasies that are a bit out there, nothing crazy or disgusting, just something that you would read in Penthouse letters or something. But as far as fetishes go a pantyhose one doesn't seem too bad, he could be into poop or other really nasty stuff...
> 
> Now there's no sex and he's texting a woman. Once sex stops one or both are going to start looking for it elsewhere. It doesn't excuse it, but you can expect it.


Bolded for emphasis. He can't help the fact it gets him off. And as far as fetishes go, it is indeed quite benign. (Not into that myself, but I'm a straight dude who sometimes likes butt plugs and small vibrators. I think that's far more "risque" for a man than wearing pantyhose.)

OP validated his fears, so he detached.



> It doesn't excuse it, but you can expect it.


Bingo.



Blondilocks said:


> See? Not helpful. I wouldn't see anything wrong with you taking your wife to dinner knowing she's wearing a strap-on and her skirt is sticking out 8 inches.


Apples to oranges. The OP hasn't indicated her husband is wearing pantyhose visibly in public, whereas in your scenario the strap-on is clearly publicly visible. Not an accurate comparison.

If my girlfriend approached me and said she wanted to use a strap-on on me, I'd hear her out. And I'd probably give it a shot. Not sure if I'd like it or not, but there's only one way to find out.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

Update - I texted the woman from my phone and asked if she was cheating or even interested and she called me right away. She claims(and I think I believe her) that it is one sided. She is not interested. In looking at the texts she does not respond to many and never had on the texts anything that sounded flirty - it was all on him. She said the first lunch was because she was thanking him for getting her the job (unknown to me they worked together at his last place of employment). She said they went a few other times for lunch but there were many that she declined. She told me she was a bit uncomfortable in the amount of texts and content. I thanked her for calling, requested that she not have lunch with him again and avoid contact unless it was business related. She told me she was fine with that. I do believe her. It was my suspicion when I read through that it was one sided. He claims innocence and that he was joking etc. He is NOT off the hook by any means. We spoke about the call - and the fact that he can say things like that to her but has not with me in a long time. We also spoke about the lack of intimacy etc. We have an appointment with a therapist that we have seen in the past tomorrow morning. My hope that this issue having come to light may bring us to a new place in our marriage. I am cautious but I do love him. I do believe there was no physical contact (but I think if she were open he may have - though he insists not the case???) I appreciate everyone's advice and thoughts. It is so helpful to be able to read other thoughts that are similar to how I am feeling but also challenging to my thoughts forcing me to see things from different perspectives.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I used to steal my wife's old pantyhose to tie up my tomatoes with. Is this the fetish of which you speak?

I'd just divorce and find a non-pantyhose-wearing, no cheater.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

annarara said:


> yes at this point I am still married - he claims to have stopped but from what I have read that is nearly impossible so it has been about a year since he has been "caught" with any. *Really bad set up in your marriage where you forbid him and he then needs to hide and you are responsible to "catch" him. Sounds more like a mother / child relationship.* For those that say for me to wear them - it is him wearing them and then pleasuring himself. It does not involve me. And it creeps me out - and I really think he should have told me about it before I married him - but that did not happen. *Correct. *20 years of marriage and 2 kids later = still with him but not happily. It saddens me that he can say things to someone else that he does not say to me. *You can't have everything. You can't shame him and treat him like a child and expect him to want to have an intimate sexual relationsihp with you. * In my opinion I am way more attractive but that is not always what does it for someone. *Maybe one's mother is objectively attractive to the outside world, but not a sexual being in the child's eyes? I* did not stop having desire for sex and did not cut him off from sex. When I found them a year ago I asked him to seek therapy and move to the guest room until we could get the relationship back on track *Why don't you seek therapy and go into the guest room? What honestly do you expect from your marriage when you take an action like this?*-


You hate pantihose. He loves pantihose. You are not wrong and he is not wrong. You can't pray the gay away here.


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

@ Hicks - quite harsh - thanks for the non support and bashing


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I still see the EA as trivial


An EA, even one sided, is never trivial. The marriage cannot be repaired or improved while the EA is ongoing. They can be extremely destructive. 
@annarara is your husband aware that you contacted the coworker and is he aware of the message you communicated?


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

Hi is - yes


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

annarara said:


> Hi is - yes


That's going to be an embarrassing day at the office for your husband. Not that he didn't deserve it.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

annarara said:


> Update - I texted the woman from my phone and asked if she was cheating or even interested and she called me right away. She claims(and I think I believe her) that it is one sided. She is not interested. In looking at the texts she does not respond to many and never had on the texts anything that sounded flirty - it was all on him. She said the first lunch was because she was thanking him for getting her the job (unknown to me they worked together at his last place of employment). She said they went a few other times for lunch but there were many that she declined. She told me she was a bit uncomfortable in the amount of texts and content. I thanked her for calling, requested that she not have lunch with him again and avoid contact unless it was business related. She told me she was fine with that. I do believe her. It was my suspicion when I read through that it was one sided. He claims innocence and that he was joking etc. He is NOT off the hook by any means. We spoke about the call - and the fact that he can say things like that to her but has not with me in a long time. We also spoke about the lack of intimacy etc. We have an appointment with a therapist that we have seen in the past tomorrow morning. My hope that this issue having come to light may bring us to a new place in our marriage. I am cautious but I do love him. I do believe there was no physical contact (but I think if she were open he may have - though he insists not the case???) I appreciate everyone's advice and thoughts. It is so helpful to be able to read other thoughts that are similar to how I am feeling but also challenging to my thoughts forcing me to see things from different perspectives.


There is power in being proactive... very nice on the communication, top notch in fact.

Desires become masters if unchecked, they are only unhealthy when we lose our focus on everything else we touch, or are obligated to touch.

You both have obligations... one should always maintain their boundaries and focus on what is acceptance, change, or needs to be left... then the path is found with less stones to trip over.

I wish you both the best as you navigate your path.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

It sounds like based on the OW's call to you that it did not transform into an affair, but your H is certainly inviting it. And that is the disturbing part. It's very possible that this isn't the first time for him though. I would ask that question if I were you.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Hicks said:


> You hate pantihose. He loves pantihose. You are not wrong and he is not wrong. You can't pray the gay away here.


OMG @Hicks, the guy is not gay at all! 

A little homophobic there dude?

:scratchhead:


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Starstarfish said:


> If a major theme all over the forum is how men need to be more "manly" and "Alpha" to get female sexual interest and attention, how do you expect her to just put aside and ignore what to her makes her husband seem anything but that?
> 
> It might be a mild fetish in the grand scheme of fetishes, but in some ways that was a bait and switch on the husband's part. She wasn't willingly signing up for a guy with a pantyhose fetish she caught him at it after he denied it. There was no open and honest communication from the beginning of their relationship. He hid who he really was. And she's just expected to deal with it, because it's "not that bad." And you can say that he hid it because he didn't want to be judged. But women who hide their sexual pasts for the same reason get thrown under the bus on TAM on a regular basis - that it's not your choice to make that kind of decision for someone else.
> 
> ...


I gotta wonder what folks' issue is with the panty hose. 

There wasn't an issue before he shared this interest...it really doesn't fit the accurate definition of a "fetish", btw...you're all pathologizing what seems like a pretty harmless interest. And, I'm using the word "Harmless" for a reason.

Let me go back to my original point which has been drowned out: The OP's problem, by her own account...started when he shared this interest. Perhaps if the response was a bit less judgmental and harsh, he wouldn't have pulled back and found another person who is more understanding?

If that is the case..if there's even the teeniest chance that it might just be perhaps one of the roots of the problem here...the advice maybe shouldn't be to over pathologize nylons or try to define what he has with the other person as an "Emotional affair"..whatever that is...but rather, how to get the tooth paste back into the tube here by 1) Having the OP re examine her response to what essentially is harmless, and 2) Determine a way to repair the considerable damage done by rejecting her partner.

I'm just not hearing anything helpful here.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> That's going to be an embarrassing day at the office for your husband. Not that he didn't deserve it.


Humility is a very good thing... the lesson often presents itself in the most inopportune of times.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Whether emotional or physical, a classic case of infidelity, IMHO!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

I did ask if this is the first and it is - he is actually quite shy and this whole thing is pretty shocking and out of character for him. He says that it is and he claims he was not intending to be inappropriate but he acknowledges how it looks to me and has apologized profusely. I am not taking all the blame at all but am owning a bit. I have not been really nice to be around - and have not had much to say to him for quite a while. I am pushing him away. NO EXCUSE for what he did but I am going to own a bit of it. I want love affection and intimacy but have not given it to him for quite some time. And for the record - I am positive he is not gay.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Bibi1031 said:


> OMG @Hicks, the guy is not gay at all!
> 
> A little homophobic there dude?
> 
> :scratchhead:


I think he's contrasting the fact that being gay is your sexuality and you can't get 'rid of it'. And in the OP's husband's case, his pantyhose fetish is a major part of his sexuality and there's no 'getting rid of it'.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Bibi1031 said:


> OMG @Hicks, the guy is not gay at all!
> 
> A little homophobic there dude?
> 
> :scratchhead:


I don't think it's gay. What I was trying to point out is it can't be cured in counseling any better than homosexuality can.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> It sounds like based on the OW's call to you that it did not transform into an affair, but your H is certainly inviting it. And that is the disturbing part. It's very possible that this isn't the first time for him though. *I would ask that question if I were you.*


*I would ask that question if I were you.*

I agree, but do it in a controlled situation; like during therapy and without accusation or confrontation. Just as a matter of fact thing. the therapist might be able to rephrase it or mediate as to how the question and answer is perceived by both you and your husband.

On another note, I can't believe this OW didn't try to contact you instead of the other way around. Maybe she didn't have the means to do it. I can certainly understand that she was in quite a pickle at work as your husband landed her the job. Reporting him for harassment was not going to look good on her. HR might even blame her and fire her. Your husband took advantage of the situation and helped her to really help himself so to speak.

How awful! He has serious work to do on himself. He is very lucky that you still love him warts and all. You can't wrap your head around the pantyhose thing; I hope a good therapist can shed some knowledge, understanding and finally acceptance in that matter if your marriage is to survive this.

I am so glad he has accepted going to therapy. I hope this isn't just lip service on his part.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Hicks said:


> I don't think it's gay. What I was trying to point out is it can't be cured in counseling any better than homosexuality can.


Oh good, my bad for the misunderstanding. I think kinks are OK as long as they don't become addictive. Once they are addictive, there is a cure. People are cured from addictions all the time, sadly they can also relapse. It's a daily struggle and a lifetime thing as well. 

He is no exception. He needs to want to get better though; that is where the problem is.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

At least you seem to recognize that bad things will happen if you kick your husband out of the bedroom, tell him he can't masturbate with pantyhose, stop talking to him, and tell him to get therapy to fix himself.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Unicus said:


> I gotta wonder what folks' issue is with the panty hose.
> 
> There wasn't an issue before he shared this interest...it really doesn't fit the accurate definition of a "fetish", btw...you're all pathologizing what seems like a pretty harmless interest. And, I'm using the word "Harmless" for a reason.
> 
> ...


To be harmless, it has to be mutually acceptable.

annara is not wrong in her feelings with the pantyhose... her husband is not wrong in his feelings with the pantyhose... together is a chasm of acceptance (or not) they must work through.

It has become self-evident that it is the hiding and not being truthful, the distrust in communication, and the one-sided EA that is their biggest hurdle here. If he were to come out openly and say "this is what I like, this is what does it for me sexually, I want you to be a part of it but if you can't where does this leave us" and tackle it from there without all the subversion at least they are on an open field where they can see all around them.

Sadly, it was not, trust has been broken, one more thing to fix before the root can be addressed.

It is purely my opinion that annara is doing a smashing job aligning this right now... she shows mindfulness and sense of understanding what hurt her and what it has taught her, she is transferring that and has another appointment for more professional guidance... she now has a better foundation than she had days ago.

This is something they are both learning from.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Bibi1031 said:


> Oh good, my bad for the misunderstanding. I think kinks are OK as long as they don't become addictive. Once they are addictive, there is a cure. People are cured from addictions all the time, sadly they can also relapse. It's a daily struggle and a lifetime thing as well.
> 
> He is no exception. He needs to want to get better though; that is where the problem is.


Just becuase somethign turns your wife off doesnt mean you are addicted to it.

Plus, what is the turn off? The fact that he does it or the fact that he likes it. I suspect the latter.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Unicus said:


> I'm just not hearing anything helpful here.


That is because you are too busy dismissing what everyone else is posting and only accepting your own input. You will never learn that way, but to each their own. There is a lot of wisdom being thrown out here, but you can't see what you don't wanna see.

I am with you on the pantyhose thing. But I am not HER! You are not HER. She needs to figure this out with professional help. She is willing to do so. She can get past it; she still loves and wants to be intimate with him. That speaks more than her initial disgust. Her actions show that deep down she doesn't hold it against him anymore and loves and desires him still. If she didn't feel this way, then that would be a major concern.

If reacting the way she did was a mistake, that is now in the past. The present is what counts and in the present, she wants to work on her marriage and so does he. Maybe the truth is that she hurt him deeply, but so did he by not being honest from the get go. 

They have to learn to forgive and move on. Therapy helps with this.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Hicks said:


> Just becuase somethign turns your wife off doesnt mean you are addicted to it.
> 
> Plus, what is the turn off? The fact that he does it or the fact that he likes it. I suspect the latter.


Or the true fact that his fetish replaced her!

You may benefit from reading a little more about kinks and fetishes before writing them off as non-addictive.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

My advice...divorce. He is a cheater. He has a fetish that turns you off and he will not connect with you intimately. He lies. I honestly don't believe for a second that this woman is the only one he has done this with. Free yourself to find a man who both respects you and who you can respect.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> To be harmless, it has to be mutually acceptable.
> 
> annara is not wrong in her feelings with the pantyhose... her husband is not wrong in his feelings with the pantyhose... together is a chasm of acceptance (or not) they must work through.
> 
> ...




The "Harm" was the OP's response to something that in and of itself, is truly harmless. By reacting as she did to something that is so obviously so deep and personal she exposed a very tender side of the H... she in effect rejected him, at his core. That part isn't being properly addressed here in the rush to support the OP. She being entitled to her feelings isn't the issue, it's how she expressed them and the result. The "Learning" they're both exhibiting is that vulnerability leads to devastation, which isn't such a good thing. That might not fit as neatly into some quasi philosophical bent. However, it might very well be helpful to the OP's understanding of the situation and how to remedy it.



Bibi1031 said:


> That is because you are too busy dismissing what everyone else is posting and only accepting your own input. You will never learn that way, but to each their own. There is a lot of wisdom being thrown out here, but you can't see what you don't wanna see.
> 
> I am with you on the pantyhose thing. But I am not HER! You are not HER. She needs to figure this out with professional help. She is willing to do so. She can get past it; she still loves and wants to be intimate with him. That speaks more than her initial disgust. Her actions show that deep down she doesn't hold it against him anymore and loves and desires him still. If she didn't feel this way, then that would be a major concern.
> 
> ...



I'm only dismissing those parts that are more about the posters particular issues or history, rather than the OP's actual situation. "EA"? "Gay"? "Fetish"? Nope. It's "Marriage", people share parts of themselves that are unexpected. The harm usually isn't the part that's shared, it's the response. 

Regardless of where her reaction might lie on the space/time continuum, when looking to solve any problem it's always best to try to find the source. And unless the OP tells otherwise, that's her reaction to panty hose, and that's what the discussion should be.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Unicus said:


> The "Harm" was the OP's response to something that in and of itself, is truly harmless. By reacting as she did to something that is so obviously so deep and personal and exposed the H to such vulnerability, she in effect rejected him, at his core. That part isn't being properly addressed here in the rush to support the OP.


These are purely assumptions as we don't really know what his feelings truly are. How can we if he hasn't even opened up to his wife. We will know if he ever does and OP will let us in on it. We support other person because she is the one seeking help. We can't support the husband because we would be throwing out speculation at the wind, since he isn't here to listen to it!





Unicus said:


> She being entitled to her feelings isn't the issue, it's how she expressed them and the result.



Well, him being secretive since the beginning of their relationship is also the result of the mess that is now going on in this marriage that now sadly has the welfare of an innocent child mixed in this whole mess.

You seem to dismiss his actions through out this whole thing? Why? They are just as relevant as her reaction to finding out his pantyhose fetish or whatever you want to label it as.




Unicus said:


> I'm only dismissing those parts that are more about the posters particular issues or history, rather than the OP's actual situation. "EA"? "Gay"? "Fetish"? Nope.


And here is where your dismissiveness gets the best of you: The blind CAN'T lead the blind! You have a world of knowledge at your disposal and you dismiss it and not use it. Very sad indeed.





Unicus said:


> Regardless of where her reaction might lie on the space/time continuum, when looking to solve any problem it's always best to try to find the source. And unless the OP tells otherwise, that's her reaction to panty hose, and that's what the discussion should be.


Maybe now they finally have a chance to air all that dirty laundry out and fix what they were not capable of fixing all these years. They want to try. That is a good start. That is where it should have begun, but for whatever reason one or both parties were not ready. It's their lives and it's their journey and time frame.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@annarara I am so glad to hear you accepting your part of the marital issues. That is a key step in your healing and your ability to move forward.

If you can be self aware and examine your own actions and make amends, then frankly you - as a couple - will be able to focus on his issues (which are pretty difficult). He has boundary issues, shame or lying issues (can't determine what drives what because he's not here), and frankly spinal issues (where's his backbone in this?).

I encourage you to continue to own your piece. I think it will encourage him to own his. Good luck.

Btw - my own assessment of the situation has changed a bit as your tone toward your H had changed. A little of your affection for him is leaking out, and that's something that you can water and grow if you want to.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Bibi1031 said:


> These are purely assumptions as we don't really know what his feelings truly are. How can we if he hasn't even opened up to his wife. We will know if he ever does and OP will let us in on it. We support other person because she is the one seeking help. We can't support the husband because we would be throwing out speculation at the wind, since he isn't here to listen to it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My intention certainly isn't to get into an argument or question other's opinions, but I really don't see offering advice as some competitive event, nor do I see it as part of my own therapy or "Healing process". So, b/c I come at this from an entirely different perspective, my recommendations aren't the result of my own history or needs. Sometimes, there really are "Better" ways to respond to things, and it takes perspective to not only recognize that, but to recognize one's lack of it. It's clear that your history doesn't exactly make you a credible source of objective advice.

There's no doubt there are many issues btwn these folks..that have gotten worse b/c they haven't been properly addressed. Perhaps there's a message in that we can agree on. However, to dismiss the OP's response to the panty hose thing and continue to quaintly yet blindly"Support her" is doing her a great disservice. What would be truly useful would be a frank appraisal of her reactions and some concrete recommendations aimed at addressing the major issues brought to our attention. That's not taking anyone's side nor is it dismissing anything but other's need to over identify with someone else's situation.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> *It sounds like based on the OW's call to you that it did not transform into an affair,* but your H is certainly inviting it. And that is the disturbing part. It's very possible that this isn't the first time for him though. I would ask that question if I were you.


Not necessarily. If one sided EA, the OW may not have much clue as to the H's feelings. OK, maybe it is called a crush or infatuation or something else. But to H is could be very powerful. There have been two recent one-side EA threads here, both deleted, that showed the dangers of even a one-sided EA. 



arbitrator said:


> *Whether emotional or physical, a classic case of infidelity, IMHO!*


This ^^^.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Unicus said:


> There's no doubt there are many issues btwn these folks..that have gotten worse b/c they haven't been properly addressed. Perhaps there's a message in that we can agree on.


Yeap, mostly all of us can see this.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Unicus said:


> My intention certainly isn't to get into an argument or question other's opinions, but I really don't see offering advice as some competitive event, nor do I see it as part of my own therapy or "Healing process". So, b/c I come at this from an entirely different perspective, my recommendations aren't the result of my own history or needs. Sometimes, there really are "Better" ways to respond to things, and it takes perspective to not only recognize that, but to recognize one's lack of it. It's clear that your history doesn't exactly make you a credible source of objective advice.


Still waiting to hear your qualifications. You are not a pro and have no first hand experience in any of these posted situations. What is your "entirely different perspective"? :scratchhead:

You told OP not to contact the OW. She did and she is better for it. So much for "credible source of objective advice." 

Again, so that OP can make her choice on which and whose advice to follow, what do you know that we do not? It is a fair question.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Still waiting to hear your qualifications. You are not a pro and have no first hand experience in any of these posted situations. *What is your "entirely different perspective"?*


Getting peeps all riled up perhaps?:surprise:


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Unicus said:


> The "Harm" was the OP's response to something that in and of itself, is truly harmless. By reacting as she did to something that is so obviously so deep and personal she exposed a very tender side of the H... she in effect rejected him, at his core. That part isn't being properly addressed here in the rush to support the OP. She being entitled to her feelings isn't the issue, it's how she expressed them and the result. The "Learning" they're both exhibiting is that vulnerability leads to devastation, which isn't such a good thing. That might not fit as neatly into some quasi philosophical bent. However, it might very well be helpful to the OP's understanding of the situation and how to remedy it.


A foremost effort in having no walls does not make one vulnerable, it makes one transparent with a the ability to see all around, vulnerability come from self and lack of confidence therein... it would be helpful if counseling can accomplish this for OP's husband, here involvement is essential for them both so clarity can come, but there is nothing that dictates she accept, this is for her to come to terms with and decide.

That they do not agree and how they will work around it is learning that life itself is a compromise... negotiated for each individual to look for the healthiest outcome in the most mindful of ways. 

That your shoes do not fit me does not mean that I should painfully wear them... her remedy may not be yours.

For the EA and lying, there is clarity... for the sexuality, the grey is theirs to find clarity, only they can live the outcome.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> What is your "entirely different perspective"?


huh?

My Perspective is based on the OP's description. What's yours based on?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bibi1031 said:


> Getting peeps all riled up perhaps?:surprise:


The sad part is the some people see this as a game, but they can end up destroying other people's marriages and lives.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> A foremost effort in having no walls does not make one vulnerable, it makes one transparent with a the ability to see all around, vulnerability come from self and lack of confidence therein... it would be helpful if counseling can accomplish this for OP's husband, here involvement is essential for them both so clarity can come, but there is nothing that dictates she accept, this is for her to come to terms with and decide.
> 
> That they do not agree and how they will work around it is learning that life itself is a compromise... negotiated for each individual to look for the healthiest outcome in the most mindful of ways.
> 
> ...


Perhaps this works in a yoga studio with a bit of incense and myrrh, but in the real world of marriage, you sound a tad flaky.

I'm talking about acceptance and tolerance and an ability to grow with the other person.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Still waiting to hear your qualifications. You are not a pro and have no first hand experience in any of these posted situations. What is your "entirely different perspective"? :scratchhead:
> 
> You told OP not to contact the OW. She did and she is better for it. So much for "credible source of objective advice."
> 
> Again, so that OP can make her choice on which and whose advice to follow, what do you know that we do not? It is a fair question.



You edited this and added more.

That she contacted the OW and "Felt better" isn't the issue. A heroin addict who is trying to kick the habit will "Feel better" shooting up, too. Everything we want or actually do isn't necessarily "Better" for us, especially in the long term. it depends on the goal. If the goal is to just "Feel better", yes, calling the OW would do that. The issue is how contacting the OW helps her achieve her goals, which as I understand it..and I might be wrong b/c it seems to change and there's a lot of cross chatter to distract...her goal seems to be to improve her marriage. I haven't heard how calling the OW actually improved the marriage, did you?

My plan for her involves things she can do to help repair and save their marriage that involve some insight and awareness on her part, rather than things she can do to other people: 1) Explore within herself and with her therapist what the original issue with his sharing his interest with panty hose is.

2) Discuss with H the cause of her reaction to this, and show some awareness of how her reaction could have been experienced by him as devastating and reinforcing of the other emotional problems they have that pre date this disclosure.

3) Make it clear that her reaction to panty hose should not be confused with her reaction to him as a person or partner.

4) Make it clear what her intentions in the marriage are, as well as her expectations, especially vis. the OW. Find out what his are.

5) Continue the discussion in at least weekly therapy with someone good.

That's off the top of my head, I'm sure I could refine and add. if there's anything there that you or anyone else finds unreasonable, let's hear it. But please, the ad hominem attacks b/c you feel challenged aren't at all necessary or appreciated. The OP is free to do whatever she wants, I'm results oriented, I don't necessarily like to indulge emotion. Yes, he's been a very bad boy, but frankly, she really could have handled all of this better too. It's easy to support someone who has been wronged, but there's a point when it might be better to look past that and actually help them by looking inward.

What needs support is her looking more at herself and learning what she has contributed to the problem, and hence, what she can now do to fix the problem. Labeling him or going after the symptoms (the OW) won't get her there, she might as well lawyer up.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Unicus said:


> That she contacted the OW and "Felt better" isn't the issue. A heroin addict who is trying to kick the habit will "Feel better" shooting up, too. Everything we want or actually do isn't necessarily "Better" for us, especially in the long term. it depends on the goal. If the goal is to just "Feel better", yes, calling the OW would do that. The issue is how contacting the OW helps her achieve her goals, which as I understand it..and I might be wrong b/c it seems to change and there's a lot of cross chatter to distract...her goal seems to be to improve her marriage. I haven't heard how calling the OW actually improved the marriage, did you?
> 
> 
> 1) Explore within herself and with her therapist what the original issue with *his sharing* his interest with panty hose is.
> ...



Wow, this is mostly what most of us in our own words have been advising as well with the exceptions of a few tweaks here and there.





Unicus said:


> That she contacted the OW and "Felt better" isn't the issue. A heroin addict who is trying to kick the habit will "Feel better" shooting up, too.


Very poor and irrelevant comparison of apples to BASKETBALLS here! :surprise:

You are no expert and you do give advice that in some areas it is worth reading and in some it is way off base like your comparison of contacting OW and heroin addiction highs. 

I may be guilty of it myself. It's good that OP is listening to all of us and taking what she needs and tossing the rest. After all, we a not experts in her situation, but we can learn a thing or two from all of us here. I have learned a lot from her. She knows that she is still trying to work this out. I probably would of thrown in the towel because I am not patient as she is. That is a very good quality not all of us possess. Her emotional and sexual needs have gone unmet for a long time IMO; I could not do that either.

She is being proactive like @Emerging Buddhist so eloquently pointed out. Her patience, love and loyalty towards her family and vows helped with that too.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Unicus said:


> Perhaps this works in a yoga studio with a bit of incense and myrrh, but in the real world of marriage, you sound a tad flaky.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about acceptance and tolerance and an ability to grow with the other person.




It doesn't sound as you find much acceptance and tolerance in my words... interesting your perception of growth.


Sent from an attempt at mobile mindfulness...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

So.... That was interesting.

OP - back to you. Is H showing signs that he will work on himself and the marriage?


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## annarara (Jun 3, 2014)

He absolutely is showing signs and has been trying in his own way that is why this was such a surprise. I am inviting him back into our bedroom tonight. I am going to try to be nicer - and open to change. I want to read through all of this with him as a point of discussion. There are many things that are how I feel - and I am guessing many how he feels. I think it will be helpful to both of us to see things in writing and have the opportunity to talk about the various points with predetermined ground rules. I value both sides of the opinions - and am glad that I started this thread because it truly has made me look at my actions in the marriage and has allowed me to stop assigning all the blame to him.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)




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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm just throwing this out there so don't take it the wrong way and I don't want to derail the positive turn in this thread...

... but is there anything in your past or in your mind - sexually - that you haven't expressed? A lot of people like it rougher than they like to admit to their spouse, or have things they've thought of but not brought forward. There are all kinds of things that are interesting and 50 shades of gray brought some out into the light (never watched or read so don't know what about BDSM was actually discussed). People like a little coercion with their furry handcuffs, or play innocent or call him daddy. All kinds of role play - teacher/student, naughty secretary/boss, pizza delivery guy ('70's music please), innocent/sex teacher...

I'm not assuming these are of interest to you, but if there was something, now might be the time to open up about it.

Btw I'm not actually asking you to express this here if it exists.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> "this is what I like, this is what does it for me sexually, I want you to be a part of it but if you can't where does this leave us" and tackle it from there without all the subversion at least they are on an open field where they can see all around them.


And really the ideal time to do that is before you get married. Because if the person won't accept that part of you, do you really want to marry them anyway?

But when you discover something like this, not because you are told, not because it's freely discussed but because you "catch them" then it's likely not only a shock, but it makes you ponder what else are they potentially lying about?


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