# Passive bias and relationships



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT RACISM OR POLITICS. I ONLY STARTED WITH AN ILLUSTRATION FROM TEACHING TO OPEN THINGS. THIS IS ACTUALLY ABOUT HOW OUR BIASES AFFECT RELATIONSHIPS AND HOW WE ARE OFTEN *BLIND* TO THEM.

When I was a teacher and took a leadership course, we had a session on passive racism. You probably know what this is, but just in case, it's those unconscious and instinctive types of subtle racism that can sometimes be ingrained in us through salt process that are so natural we don't even realize they are there. For example, let's say you are talking about someone who sat next to you on a plane. It's not overtly racist to say there was a black girl sitting next to me on the plane. Then again, when you are telling the story, why is the word black necessary as a qualifier? It's very small and, like I said, something that we can do or think without even realizing it just because of how ingrained our own thought patterns and unconscious biases are

* So what is the point with that long ramble? Often we have biases for whatever reason that have become so much a part of us, we do not recognize them ourselves. In fact, if someone tried to point them out to us, we would probably protest, and quite possibly protest defensively. But outsiders can see those biases easily…. and less of course they share the same biases. I have to wonder how these things can affect our relationships. For example, if I operate in my marriage with an unconscious bias against men or assuming certain negative generalizations about men, how will that affect the dynamic between my husband and me,? Will I make assumptions about his motives? Well I in accurately predict his actions and behavior because I am looking through the lens of what I unconsciously have decided about men in general?*

I recently read some things where the bias and negative thinking against an entire group of people was so threaded and intertwined in regular conversation that it was clear. And yet I know if I had directly called this person out, they would have strongly protested that they had any negative feelings toward this group as a whole. After all, they would never call this group as a whole names or anything. But they're unconscious negative feelings and assumptions about this group were so much a part of who they are that it came out whether they realized it or not.

That made me think of the talk I heard on passive racism, and I wondered what other passive biases we might hold and how those might influence our relationships or our general interactions with members of those groups.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Whatever the case...it goes both ways. But same say it does not. 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-find-white-woman-racist-rant-viral-58895408

https://www.theroot.com/white-woman-calls-the-cops-on-black-woman-for-canvassin-1830157131

Passive racism? What next? You looked at me funny racism? 

News stations were asked to stop identifying suspects(by color) in news stories. Black was omitted. White has replaced it. What is the purpose of passive racism study when those that rail against it do just the opposite?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> For example, if I operate in my marriage with an unconscious bias against men or assuming certain negative generalizations about men, how will that affect the dynamic between my husband and me,? Will I make assumptions about his motives? Will I inaccurately predict his actions and behavior because I am looking through the lens of what I unconsciously have decided about men in general?


It's not so much "what I have decided" as "what I learned in my family of origin, and in our culture". 

(And this is not to say that there are not _also_, genuine innate differences between men and women). 

Yes, I think we all bring assumptions which can cause problems.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Whatever the case...it goes both ways. But same say it does not.
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-find-white-woman-racist-rant-viral-58895408
> 
> ...


Well at least yours isn't passive. And I can appreciate that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

No one says racism in any form is good, that's a given.

Touching on reverse racism (or any reverse bias) as mentioned above, which is a very valid and important topic, why is it considered ok for a black gentleman to share a story about a trip on a plane and he shares he was sitting next to an attractive black woman?

No one ever says anything about those and even more extreme words, by a black person. Some say it's not important but some say it should be.

Nothing to dwell on really, but once the subject was mentioned...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

thefam said:


> Well at least yours isn't passive. And I can appreciate that.


I also appreciate when people are transparent. That way I know who I’m talking to.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I also appreciate when people are transparent. That way I know who I’m talking to.


Absolutely!


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

This what I think of from your original post (from MLK):

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the *****'s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the ***** to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

At the end of the day, IMO, people describe people. It is in our nature. To specifically say it is passive racism to describe a black person as black in ones story is reaching. Many stories or tales of the day start with:

1. I sat next to a black girl...
2. I sat next to a fat guy
3. I sat next to a white woman..
4. The kids next to me was nothing but a punk...
5. The dude on the bus next to me stank the high heaven..

Just about every piece of literature(books) written will describe people in that literature by their physical attributes. Is that passive racism?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> Whatever the case...it goes both ways. But same say it does not.
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-find-white-woman-racist-rant-viral-58895408
> 
> ...


You missed the entire point of my post, but thank you for your knee-jerk insights.

The only reason I started with the teaching story was to lay groundwork.

The core of the post is about how it affects our relationships when we operate from bias that we have instinctively lung to for so long we don't even notice it anymore.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> At the end of the day, IMO, people describe people. It is in our nature. To specifically say it is passive racism to describe a black person as black in ones story is reaching. Many stories or tales of the day start with:
> 
> 1. I sat next to a black girl...
> 2. I sat next to a fat guy
> ...


OHMYGOD please read my entire post to understand the context of its opening.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> It's not so much "what I have decided" as "what I learned in my family of origin, and in our culture".
> 
> (And this is not to say that there are not _also_, genuine innate differences between men and women).
> 
> Yes, I think we all bring assumptions which can cause problems.


Yes, anecdotal personal experience is often the go to reasoning for our bias and generalizations. However, it's still faulty.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> No one says racism in any form is good, that's a given.
> 
> Touching on reverse racism (or any reverse bias) as mentioned above, which is a very valid and important topic, why is it considered ok for a black gentleman to share a story about a trip on a plane and he shares he was sitting next to an attractive black woman?
> 
> ...


This post is not about racism. The opening illustration was only and opening.

Good grief....sorry I even tried.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Person, on your original premise. I know that I operate from a bias when it comes to my wife and sex. If for some reason I was to be single again, I am sure that it would hang around in any future relationships. How could it not?

I do have a few biases as well, in general, towards women. I don't think them inferior or anything like that, but I do find that they tend to have a lower threshold for discomfort for example.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> At the end of the day, IMO, people describe people. It is in our nature. To specifically say it is passive racism to describe a black person as black in ones story is reaching. Many stories or tales of the day start with:
> 
> 1. I sat next to a black girl...
> 2. I sat next to a fat guy
> ...


I assume you are a white male.

Are you honestly saying that if you were telling a friend a story about a woman you sat next to on a plane and that you would actually describe her as white?

“I sat next to a WHITE woman and she talked incessantly the whole trip”. Really? You’d say this?

Because as a white person, I have literally never heard a white person describe another white person’s race in this context. Like, ever. Though I’ve heard plenty of white people tell me about random people they sat next to on planes and whatever good or bad experience happened, I’ve never once heard the other passenger’s race described in the story unless they were something other than white. 

But also....I’ve found that white people who argue this point just don’t “get it” and therefore I’m not sure why I’m even posting to you but, couldn’t help myself this time, I guess.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Person, on your original premise. I know that I operate from a bias when it comes to my wife and sex. If for some reason I was to be single again, I am sure that it would hang around in any future relationships. How could it not?
> 
> I do have a few biases as well, in general, towards women. I don't think them inferior or anything like that, but I do find that they tend to have a lower threshold for discomfort for example.


Your supposition about discomfort has some basis in fact physiologically, depending on the type of discomfort. I think you could also probably say that a man and woman at the same fitness level would be different in terms of brute strength, etc.

Your comment about your wife and sex is more what i am talking about. The difference is that you recognize that your bias stems from specific experience that does not necessarily translate to all women. I would bet you would also keep that in mind should you ever date again.

However, some people are so attached to their biases that 1. They resist the idea that they cannot generalize based on them and 2. They may even resist the idea that they have them.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Here are two examples:

1. "Men are uncomfortable with their girlfriends having male friends because of they way women monkey-branch." The first part of that sentence is neutral. The second part exhibits bias.

2. "I try not to dress certain ways on the first few dates because you know what men are after." Again, the first part of the sentence may be fine, but the second part exhibits a very clear attitude about men.

However, if you pointed that out to either person, they would likely become defensive and/or give you a bunch of reasons they are right.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I assume you are a white male.
> 
> Are you honestly saying that if you were telling a friend a story about a woman you sat next to on a plane and that you would actually describe her as white?
> 
> ...


Yep. Once I said on the way to a concert I will be sat next to a fat white dude that smells. Sure enough, I was sat next to a fat white dude that smelled. I went further to say his name would probably be Bubba. It was! True story. 

And your assumption of a white guy....why would you assume that. Are you now stereotyping? :grin2:


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> OHMYGOD please read my entire post to understand the context of its opening.


Nope. Not really interested any longer.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> You missed the entire point of my post, but thank you for your knee-jerk insights.
> 
> The only reason I started with the teaching story was to lay groundwork.
> 
> The core of the post is about how it affects our relationships when we operate from bias that we have instinctively lung to for so long we don't even notice it anymore.


It only affects the relationship if one allows it. I really do not see any purpose for this study. Someone describes a black person as black when relating a story and it is passive racism. Great! What else do you have for me?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> It only affects the relationship if one allows it.


I thought you weren't interested, but you make a good point.

However, it is very hard to compartmentalize bias. For example, if I use profanity in every conversation I have but decide I will not use profanity in front of my mom.......yeah.....sooner or later I WILL be using profanity in front of Mommy.

People who, for example, are highly negative about the opposite gender but claim they don't project that onto their partner are probably lying to themselves.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Bias in any living form exist even at the molecular level where enzymes, aminoacids, minerals, etc., are rejected or accepted as a biochemical reaction of AFFINITY (very important).

Living organisms living alone or in groups partially depend on biases in order to ensure not only their survival, but ultimately that of their species.

In humans, biases are rationalized not only unconsciously, but consciously at higher levels. We as society in modern times are being Brainwashed with silly notions that we are gentle, "social" beings were everyone should be equal, and that there are not differences between the sexes.

Thruth is, no matter how much we socially want to believe, and enforce against biases, they naturally still are there, consciously and unconsciously.

We can't wipe millions of years of evolution in matters of a few decades of social awereness.

Humans will keep doing what humans do, not need to be coy or feel shame for what we think/feel, IT IS NATURAL. It's what we do what matters (from a societal point of view), not in order for the species to survive.

Let's remove from society at this moment all forms of enforcements, e.g., police, military, religious, etc., what do you think that it would happens within, let's say the first 30 days?
What I can say is let's count how many of us are still alive.
Humans are the most ruthlessly, biased entities that ever appeared on this planet. The most efficient killer, not even cats can match us, but oh no! God forbids someone accuses another human of bring biased.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> Bias in any living form exist even at the molecular level where enzymes, aminoacids, minerals, etc., are rejected or accepted as a biochemical reaction of AFFINITY (very important).
> 
> Living organisms living alone or in groups partially depend on biases in order to ensure not only their survival, but ultimately that of their species.
> 
> ...


So you think a woman who hates all men should be trying to marry one? You'd wish that on some poor sap?

This isn't about politics or "societal evolution."

This is about the fact that if you hate a group of people, it WILL affect your interactions with them. And if your goal is a healthy relationship with someone, then all sorts of negative bias against the group to which they belong is not conducive.

I gave two statements a few posts above, one about monkey branching and one about men being sex maniacs. Can you find the bias in each statement and understand why the attitudes might not be great for your relationship?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Touching on *reverse racism* (or any reverse bias) as mentioned above, which is a very valid and important topic, why is it considered ok for a black gentleman to share a story about a trip on a plane and he shares he was sitting next to an attractive black woman?


Not in response to OP which is apparently not about race, but in response to the quoted post.
Reverse racism isn't a thing. Racism is not something that is only perpetrated against Blacks. A black being racist against a white is racism just as much as a white being racist against a black. Feel free to substitute Asian in anywhere that you feel Black or White triggers you. The definition of racism is:

racism noun
rac·ism | \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi- \
Definition of racism 
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism
3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Nowhere in that definition does it determine the direction or race of any offender. If this passive racism is something that needs to be acknowledged, then this is a perfect example of it.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I assume you are a white male.
> 
> Are you honestly saying that if you were telling a friend a story about a woman you sat next to on a plane and that you would actually describe her as white?
> 
> ...


 If you lived in an area where whites were a minority, you would. In the US 12.1% are black, 5.6% are asian, so statistically speaking you would not describe the norm but you would the outliers to differentiate it from the norm for descriptive purposes.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Every person had biases and prejudice in them in some form. And not all bias or prejudice is intentional or negative, usually it's a result of specific experience or ignorance due to simple lack of experience. 

In a relationship whether or not a bias is going to be a problem is very dependent on the couple. For example lots of people have a bias and judge a woman who enjoys conversing at parties or events with men. They might have a bias or prejudice that makes them think she is a flirt or looking to hook up with someone. In reality maybe she is in a male dominated industry and talks shop or she's a big sports fan so she finds more guys to talk to about the latest game. If this type of woman is married to a guy who is wired to be suspicious of a married woman talking to guys they are going to have problems. 

So I guess from a relationship point you need a partner who is compatible with your biases as well as everything else.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I assume you are a white male.
> ...


I wonder if it's just because the person in the story is a different race from the teller. Because my friends of color, when telling a story, dont say, "a black woman sat by me." But they will say "a white woman sat by me."


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I wonder if it's just because the person in the story is a different race from the teller. Because my friends of color, when telling a story, dont say, "a black woman sat by me." But they will say "a white woman sat by me."


 That does seem to often be the case unless it is germane to the story.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

I’ve grown pretty angry with men as a group over the last decade or so. Before that I was in a very privileged position - great father, excellent husband, a brother I love and respect, plenty of male friends and I’d never been seriously hurt or abused by a man.

But honestly, seeing the general reaction of men as a whole to the Me Too movement, seeing them defend and blame and #notallmen and just refuse to see any issues has made me furious. And yes, sometimes it’s hard to not let that leach into personal relationships. 

But I don’t actually think it’s my job to smooth those feelings over and cosset and reassure men that oh, I don’t blame THEM. Because I do. Because even the vast majority of men who never actually assault a women are silent when women are killed by their partners. They don’t call other men out. They hide behind locker room talk because they’re afraid of the censure of other men. And because frankly, it really suits them that women remain as powerless as possible. 

So there’s my bias. And it’s hard to reconcile with my very deep love of specific men in my life. 


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Dusk said:


> I’ve grown pretty angry with men as a group over the last decade or so. Before that I was in a very privileged position - great father, excellent husband, a brother I love and respect, plenty of male friends and I’d never been seriously hurt or abused by a man.
> 
> But honestly, seeing the general reaction of men as a whole to the Me Too movement, seeing them defend and blame and #notallmen and just refuse to see any issues has made me furious. And yes, sometimes it’s hard to not let that leach into personal relationships.
> 
> ...


So see, I'm an actual rape survivor. And I think the metoo movement has hurt actual victims because of histrionics and false accusations.

I dint see that as a man.problem. I see it as an angry pink hat problem


In fact, I feel sorry for a man who is married to a third waver.

That's my personal bias.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT RACISM OR POLITICS. I ONLY STARTED WITH AN ILLUSTRATION FROM TEACHING TO OPEN THINGS. THIS IS ACTUALLY ABOUT HOW OUR BIASES AFFECT RELATIONSHIPS AND HOW WE ARE OFTEN *BLIND* TO THEM.
> 
> When I was a teacher and took a leadership course, we had a session on passive racism. You probably know what this is, but just in case, it's those unconscious and instinctive types of subtle racism that can sometimes be ingrained in us through salt process that are so natural we don't even realize they are there. For example, let's say you are talking about someone who sat next to you on a plane. It's not overtly racist to say there was a black girl sitting next to me on the plane. Then again, when you are telling the story, why is the word black necessary as a qualifier? It's very small and, like I said, something that we can do or think without even realizing it just because of how ingrained our own thought patterns and unconscious biases are
> 
> ...




Biases are prevalent everywhere and shape all our thinking. By definition we are blind to them. 
Only an incredibly self aware person has a chance of pinpointing some of their own biases.
To an outsider those biases are much obvious but if you point them out to the person, you are usually met with anger.
Some biases are necessary for survival and some, are a handicap.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Dusk said:


> I’ve grown pretty angry with men as a group over the last decade or so. Before that I was in a very privileged position - great father, excellent husband, a brother I love and respect, plenty of male friends and I’d never been seriously hurt or abused by a man.
> 
> But honestly, seeing the general reaction of men as a whole to the Me Too movement, seeing them defend and blame and #notallmen and just refuse to see any issues has made me furious. And yes, sometimes it’s hard to not let that leach into personal relationships.
> 
> But I don’t actually think it’s my job to smooth those feelings over and cosset and reassure men that oh, I don’t blame THEM. Because I do. Because even the vast majority of men who never actually assault a women are silent when women are killed by their partners. They don’t call other men out. They hide behind locker room talk because they’re afraid of the censure of other men. And because frankly, it really suits them that women remain as powerless as possible.




Huh?? There’s absolutely no basis for these assertions. It’s no bias, it’s prejudice. No reasonable man will defend any of these things in a million years. Period (as my feminist hero POI would say).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I know it’s not about that...but why is describing someone’s skin colour ‘racist’?

Yes white people are less likely to describe someone they say next to as white (though they might, if it’s the police: they will ask).
Just as a black person is not going to describe that they say next to a black person however they are more likely to mention the skin colour if the person was white.
Some people are so passively racist, they think everything is racist 
There’s nothing derogatory, prejudiced or discriminatory about describing someone’s skin colour. Like, at all.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> People who, for example, are highly negative about the opposite gender but claim they don't project that onto their partner are probably lying to themselves.



I would have thought people who do this, have many other issues too. Projection is only one of them. Although what comes first, chicken or egg: sh1tty partner followed by projection onto gender or generalisation of gender followed by projection onto partner. I would have thought the first will be more common.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> If you lived in an area where whites were a minority, you would. In the US 12.1% are black, 5.6% are asian, so statistically speaking you would not describe the norm but you would the outliers to differentiate it from the norm for descriptive purposes.




OMG! You are quoting percentages and data!!. This is so racist!! 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I wonder if it's just because the person in the story is a different race from the teller. Because my friends of color, when telling a story, dont say, "a black woman sat by me." But they will say "a white woman sat by me."



Exactly


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I assume you are a white male.
> 
> Are you honestly saying that if you were telling a friend a story about a woman you sat next to on a plane and that you would actually describe her as white?
> 
> ...


I think that most people are more likely to mention the race of someone who is either different than themselves who different than the majority of the local population. It does not mean that they are racist. It means that they are making an observation.

Here, where I live, there are many Hispanics. I've often heard Hispanics talking about non-Hispanics and they will identify them as white/Anglo or black.

I've just heard a lot of people of all races, identify the race of people who are of a different race. It seems to be more about human nature.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> So see, I'm an actual rape survivor. And I think the metoo movement has hurt actual victims because of histrionics and false accusations.
> 
> I dint see that as a man.problem. I see it as an angry pink hat problem
> 
> ...




Once you combine stupidity with anger, it really is not a very pleasant combination. 


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT RACISM OR POLITICS. I ONLY STARTED WITH AN ILLUSTRATION FROM TEACHING TO OPEN THINGS. THIS IS ACTUALLY ABOUT HOW OUR BIASES AFFECT RELATIONSHIPS AND HOW WE ARE OFTEN *BLIND* TO THEM.
> 
> When I was a teacher and took a leadership course, we had a session on passive racism. You probably know what this is, but just in case, it's those unconscious and instinctive types of subtle racism that can sometimes be ingrained in us through salt process that are so natural we don't even realize they are there. For example, let's say you are talking about someone who sat next to you on a plane. It's not overtly racist to say there was a black girl sitting next to me on the plane. Then again, when you are telling the story, why is the word black necessary as a qualifier? It's very small and, like I said, something that we can do or think without even realizing it just because of how ingrained our own thought patterns and unconscious biases are
> 
> ...


The point you are trying to bring forward is being lost here. 

You are right that we all have prejudices and biases that we are not really aware of. We bring those into our relationships and they can distort our interactions for everyone we encounter. Most people are not self aware enough to see their own prejudices/biases and therefore these are hard things to get rid of.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Dusk said:


> I’ve grown pretty angry with men as a group over the last decade or so. Before that I was in a very privileged position - great father, excellent husband, a brother I love and respect, plenty of male friends and I’d never been seriously hurt or abused by a man.
> 
> But honestly, seeing the general reaction of men as a whole to the Me Too movement, seeing them defend and blame and #notallmen and just refuse to see any issues has made me furious. And yes, sometimes it’s hard to not let that leach into personal relationships.
> 
> ...


 Where do you live? 
Because in the U.S. the highlighted part is incorrect to the point of being delusional. I'm sure some exist, but not the majority by a longshot.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

I have seen very few men with any type of public platform call other men out for misogyny anywhere in any country. I’d be happy to be corrected and I’ll freely admit my confirmation bias may be at work here. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Dusk said:


> I have seen very few men with any type of public platform call other men out for misogyny anywhere in any country. I’d be happy to be corrected and I’ll freely admit my confirmation bias may be at work here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



First of all they do (for example on the news, all the time, have to tip toe how to phrase a sentence for fear of being fired. Because one wrong word and they ARE fired). 
Secondly, why should they? People do all kinds of ****, the ones that commit crimes go to prison. There isn’t really a ‘spokesmen’ for all men. This is a male-specific issue in the same way as ANY crime is a male specific issue (because most prisons are dominated by men). Should men speak out on behalf of all the criminals or just the ones that sexually assaulted someone?



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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Dusk said:


> I’ve grown pretty angry with men as a group over the last decade or so. Before that I was in a very privileged position - great father, excellent husband, a brother I love and respect, plenty of male friends and I’d never been seriously hurt or abused by a man.
> 
> But honestly, seeing the general reaction of men as a whole to the Me Too movement, seeing them defend and blame and #notallmen and just refuse to see any issues has made me furious. And yes, sometimes it’s hard to not let that leach into personal relationships.
> 
> ...


I’m also shocked. Men know that other men behave this way “in general”, as in, every man knows to protect his daughters, sisters, mother and wife from “men”. Every man knows what “men” are capable of and is greatly concerned about the safety of the women in his life when they are vulnerable. But when it is pointed out how often these things are perpetrated by those same “men” that good men know are doing these things...why do the good men get hysterical and defiantly claim that things aren’t as bad as they are being portrayed? I would think they would become even more concerned about the women in their lives once they realized the full extent of what those other “men” are doing. Women have no choice but to depend on good men, to help us as a whole be protected from those other “men”. Good men have to police those other “men”, and they know they do (they do it all the time in official and unofficial or vigilante ways).

But for some reason, the gravity of the situation - now that it is more exposed than ever before - makes good men skitter and freak out....about themselves. And not about the women in their lives or about those other “men” who they know have existed their whole lives. 

The whole false accusations thing to me seems a separate discussion and is a separate crime unto itself, which can be perpetrated in ways other than false rape claims (you can falsely testify or witness against anyone about any crime). It is definitely worthy of discussion and people should be spreading the word that it won’t be tolerated. 

But it is being used instead as this bizarre smoke screen. 

Like you, I’m shocked. I feel happy and privileged that the men who are closest to me realize I’m far more at risk of being assaulted than they are of being falsely accused of anything (and they are actually more likely to be assaulted by another man in any number of ways including sexual, than be falsely accused by a woman of anything). If it weren’t for the internet, I wouldn’t know there were good men out there defending bad men. It’s bizarro world.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ok I’m not participating in this thread anymore.
It’s based on completely uninformed premises.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Dusk said:


> I have seen very few men with any type of public platform call other men out for misogyny anywhere in any country. I’d be happy to be corrected and I’ll freely admit my confirmation bias may be at work here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It doesn’t happen enough but it does happen.

https://www.newsweek.com/jimmy-carter-speech-women-girls-wealth-disparity-liberty-937035


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Ok I’m not participating in this thread anymore.
> It’s based on completely uninformed premises.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




It’s really interesting how even the mildest of questioning can cause this kind of extreme offended reaction. Maybe sit with it a bit and think about why you’re so threatened by some quite dispassionate opinions from women about the misogyny they see in the world. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Dusk said:


> It’s really interesting how even the mildest of questioning can cause this kind of extreme offended reaction. Maybe sit with it a bit and think about why you’re so threatened by some quite dispassionate opinions from women about the misogyny they see in the world.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It’s not ‘mildest questioning’, it’s generalist, sexist accusations with no basis in fact: what you and few others can’t seem to understand is that we (the innocent we), will never defend anyone guilty of any crime (contrary to what you and others accuse us of). However we (again, the innocent we) do and will defend anyone NOT guilty of a crime, whether it’s man or woman. 
This should be simple enough to understand?



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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> First of all they do (for example on the news, all the time, have to tip toe how to phrase a sentence for fear of being fired. Because one wrong word and they ARE fired).
> Secondly, why should they? People do all kinds of ****, the ones that commit crimes go to prison. There isn’t really a ‘spokesmen’ for all men. This is a male-specific issue in the same way as ANY crime is a male specific issue (because most prisons are dominated by men). Should men speak out on behalf of all the criminals or just the ones that sexually assaulted someone?
> 
> 
> ...




Um...yes? Of course men should speak out against crime of all kinds. 

Recently there was yet another family annihilation in my country. And a woman killed while walking home. The media mostly blamed the woman for being walking while female. The family annihilator was described as a devoted family man. No-one was fired. 

Men have finally begun to be taken to task for abusing their power in order to sexually assault women. And honestly, the reaction has been really sad. It’s as though men are genuinely offended that they have to now think a bit more carefully about their actions in case they lose their jobs. You know, how women have had to think carefully about how they dress, speak, walk and interact always for fear of sexual violence and death. 


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> It’s not ‘mildest questioning’, it’s generalist, sexist accusations with no basis in fact: what you and few others can’t seem to understand is that we (the innocent we), will never defend anyone guilty of any crime (contrary to what you and others accuse us of). However we (again, the innocent we) do and will defend anyone NOT guilty of a crime, whether it’s man or woman.
> This should be simple enough to understand?
> 
> 
> ...




I’m not asking you or anyone to defend someone who’s guilty of a crime. I don’t understand what that even means. I’m asking men in general to be brave enough to call out systematic abuse and misogyny from other men when they see or hear it. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Dusk said:


> Um...yes? Of course men should speak out against crime of all kinds.
> 
> Recently there was yet another family annihilation in my country. And a woman killed while walking home. The media mostly blamed the woman for being walking while female. The family annihilator was described as a devoted family man. No-one was fired.
> 
> ...



Ok, I’ll let someone else have fun with this.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Dusk said:


> But I don’t actually think it’s my job to smooth those feelings over and cosset and reassure men that oh, I don’t blame THEM. Because I do. Because even the vast majority of men who never actually assault a women are silent when women are killed by their partners. They don’t call other men out. They hide behind locker room talk because they’re afraid of the censure of other men. And because frankly, it really suits them that women remain as powerless as possible.



After this paragraph: there’s nothing really to discuss.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Dusk said:


> I’m not asking you or anyone to defend someone who’s guilty of a crime. I don’t understand what that even means. I’m asking men in general to be brave enough to call out systematic abuse and misogyny from other men when they see or hear it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Why do you think they don’t? What exactly do you mean by ‘calling out’?

Are you saying that if a man sees another man rape a woman, he is going to keep on walking and try to not make a big deal out of it because it ‘suits him’?
What’s the matter with you?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Dusk said:


> I have seen very few men with any type of public platform call other men out for misogyny anywhere in any country. I’d be happy to be corrected and I’ll freely admit my confirmation bias may be at work here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The other problem with all the men who are more concerned about being falsely accused than they are about what is actually happening all around them...is I think of it like this: let’s say of all men only 10% or less are actual “those type of men”. The ones with deliberate intent to molest, rape, assault. It may only be 5% or less. 

Then let’s say there’s another 5% or less who aren’t “those types of men” but they are the types who would bully or corerce or intimidate into silence someone into sex or sexual things.

So at most both categories make up maybe 15% of men but I think it is less. (Again this is all just in my head, my own logic, not based on any statistics).

Now the rest of all men, let’s say 25% or more are understanding what the me too movement is and they are becoming more aware.

So there’s the 60% of men left. We assume in my model these are good men, not of either of the bad type. Now whatever percentage of these men get hung up on false accusations and poo poo the gains the me too movement has made in abuse awareness, however many there are, they are standing in agreement right alongside those 15% who are the bad type. Because we know any man who is of that type is loudly proclaiming that the me too movement is false numbers and that false accusations against men are the real problem.

That’s how I don’t understand how good men are defending bad men. We know for sure that the men who would rape and deliberately coerce are fiercely behind throwing shade so that their own actions will continue to be unnoticed. Being unnoticed is how creeps get away with stuff. They try to blend in with everyone else and act normal. And so at this moment in history, good normal men are defending something that the bad men are literally trying to hide behind. Why wouldn’t that be obvious? 

I assume the men I see at TAM who are more concerned about false accusations than they are about the reality of me too are good men, not in the 15%. I am just confused about why they are aligned with bad men on a topic that helps bad men stay insidiously hidden amongst the normal population.

ETA: I estimate the same percentage of women are also creeps, abusers, rapists and molesters. They simply can not use as much violence as men, but they likely do it in the same percentage.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

So let me get this straight: according to the new feminists, 15% of men (or 600,000,000) are in the ‘bad category’, i.e. some sort of rapists. And 60% of other men (or 2.5 billion) are rape apologists.
That’s a nice little made up statistic that’s really helpful.
Someone should take a look at those pink hats; they may be making them a little too tight lately, potentially cutting off oxygen supplies.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Why do you think they don’t? What exactly do you mean by ‘calling out’?
> 
> Are you saying that if a man sees another man rape a woman, he is going to keep on walking and try to not make a big deal out of it because it ‘suits him’?
> What’s the matter with you?
> ...


I said 'systematic abuse and misogyny'. Not rape. So, for example, when a young woman was murdered while she was walking home in my city recently, what I'd love to hear from the police chief would be something like, 'violence against women won't be tolerated. Women should be able to have reasonable expectations of safety while walking home.' Instead, what I heard was that women needed to not be out walking alone. And very few men said anything publicly to contradict this. I'd say none, because I didn't hear any, but there may have been a couple who did. 

Actually I've thought of an example where a man did call another man out for condescending and ignoring behaviour. https://www.upworthy.com/this-viral...-story-shows-what-male-allyship-can-look-like. I don't like that article particularly, but it does give an example of the kind of everyday sexism women deal with, and a man who risked offending another man. I would guess that most men would not do this, they might not even notice that a woman was being condescended to. TBH, I might not even notice it myself, it's so endemic. 

So there you go. In my experience, most sexism and misogyny is not noticed by men and if it is noticed, it's denied and explained away.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

This is precisely why men are forced to defend themselves on occasion, because of non sense like this. It doesn’t automatically make someone a rape apologist to point out made up s***.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Dusk said:


> I said 'systematic abuse and misogyny'. Not rape. So, for example, when a young woman was murdered while she was walking home in my city recently, what I'd love to hear from the police chief would be something like, 'violence against women won't be tolerated.



Because you think that unless they make this disclaimer after every sentence, it automatically implies that violence against women is well-tolerated?





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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> This is precisely why men are forced to defend themselves on occasion, because of non sense like this. It doesn’t automatically make someone a rape apologist to point out made up s***.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I'll just leave this right here.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katie...er-i-made-things-up-to-get-attention-n2534477


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I'll just leave this right here.
> 
> 
> 
> https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katie...er-i-made-things-up-to-get-attention-n2534477



This is really not helpful to the real victims who were assaulted. Made up ‘statistics’ are in fact just as bad as it just fuels blind hatred against a whole gender. Fortunately, these people make up 0.00000000000000000001% of women (it’s my turn to guess now; and I rounded up!).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Dusk said:


> Um...yes? Of course men should speak out against crime of all kinds.
> 
> Recently there was yet another family annihilation in my country. And a woman killed while walking home. The media mostly blamed the woman for being walking while female. The family annihilator was described as a devoted family man. No-one was fired.
> 
> ...


I’m sure it’s much worse in your country than it is in the US. But it is bad everywhere in the world, really.

I’d like to say that women are guilty of all kinds of abuse as well, including sexual and physical. In fact I think if there was truly equal (including physical) power between the sexes, women would be guilty of abuse in equal numbers to men. It seems to me to be a human problem of cruelty in the hands of power, rather than a gender issue.

If women were physically capable of raping men (in a forced, violent way as most men could do to a woman), I’m pretty sure they would be doing it. 

We have a certain amount of cruelty in the human population. It is sad....but maybe seems to be better worldwide than 1 decade ago, 1 century ago, 1 millennia ago, and so on. So I pray and have faith that our trajectory is toward less and less overall cruelty.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think people are necessarily blind to their own biases. I am aware of some of mine - and make an effort to compensate - but of course judging how much to compensate is not easy. 

I presume I also have biases that I'm not aware of. 

Unfortunately the original post touched a political hot-button so this thread is going to be difficult to use for the original discussion. 



inmyprime said:


> Biases are prevalent everywhere and shape all our thinking. By definition we are blind to them.
> Only an incredibly self aware person has a chance of pinpointing some of their own biases.
> To an outsider those biases are much obvious but if you point them out to the person, you are usually met with anger.
> Some biases are necessary for survival and some, are a handicap.
> ...


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

I enjoy my biases that I am aware of when having conversations with my wife. It gives me a chance to practice being objective beyond my normal attempts.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dusk said:


> I have seen very few men with any type of public platform call other men out for misogyny anywhere in any country. I’d be happy to be corrected and I’ll freely admit my confirmation bias may be at work here.


It really would help to know what country you live in so that we can put your remarks in perspective.


Keep in mind that few men have a public platform so few could ever make the public statement that you seem to what men to make.

I think that good men don't feel that they are required to make public statements against misogyny and violence against women. They assume it's a given.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> It really would help to know what country you live in so that we can put your remarks in perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It makes no difference what country she’s from; the comments were made in relation to US incidents.
Also, I would guess there is inverse correlation between outcry of women for misogyny and actual safety of women (not safe enough as even 1 crime is too many but that’s not the point). You don’t hear many complaints from women from the Middle East or India etc where things are in fact really bad for women.

I think part of the problem is hysteria in the media (in countries where the issues are actually getting handled the most aggressively). But it’s still no excuse not to engage common sense when making such sweeping generalisations.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

The insinuations and accusations made earlier were that ‘normal’ (non rapist men) are condoning criminal behaviour of sexual abusers/rapists by ‘not speaking out’ and covering up for them.
Which is a ludicrous assertion (and patently not true).

It wasn’t about ‘of course all genders have evil, and if women only could harm someone, they would...’.
What BS.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

Jackson Katz had a great Ted talk on this very subject. I think we need to hold each of our sexes accountable for our bad behavior towards they opposite sex. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men/women do nothing. We can’t blame the victim for the perpetrators actions. 




https://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_k...men_it_s_a_men_s_issue/transcript?language=en


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Daisy12 said:


> Jackson Katz had a great Ted talk on this very subject. I think we need to hold each of our sexes accountable for our bad behavior towards they opposite sex. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men/women do nothing. We can’t blame the victim for the perpetrators actions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have rarely heard such a load of strawmen in one talk.
No normal man will stand for or condone domestic violence, sexual abuse or rape. Period. 

Maybe try this talk instead:


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> In fact, I feel sorry for a man who is married to a third waver.


Well there's no need to feel sorry for me.

Since I enjoy being married to my Third Wave Feminist wife. Who used to be an active feminist collective organisater and member.

Seriously I have a splendid high quality/frequency and varied sex life, with my wife, who I enjoy spending time with, chatting to and playing with.

Plus on weekends she cooks me breakfast and does all sorta of other nice things for me as well.

To the point that despite my not wanting her to. She's made me breakfast a few times, over the last few days. Despite having had neck surgery to remove half of her thyroid at the beginning of this week.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Dusk said:
> 
> 
> > But I don’t actually think it’s my job to smooth those feelings over and cosset and reassure men that oh, I don’t blame THEM. Because I do. Because even the vast majority of men who never actually assault a women are silent when women are killed by their partners. They don’t call other men out. They hide behind locker room talk because they’re afraid of the censure of other men. And because frankly, it really suits them that women remain as powerless as possible.
> ...


Oh there is. But a woman like this won't hear.

And rest assured, there are plenty of men who feel that way about women.

At least Dusty admits it. I cant tell how how many men I have encountered on forums who swear up and down they dont hate women while deriding and generalizing in every post. Take the polyandry enforcer thread for example.

They are usually the ones who call me a misandrist lol


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Dusk said:


> I have seen very few men with any type of public platform call other men out for misogyny anywhere in any country. I’d be happy to be corrected and I’ll freely admit my confirmation bias may be at work here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @Dusk Please refrain from turning my thread into a pink hat platform.

I cannot imagine anything more annoying.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Oh God, I just read all of the last 4 pages


This has become my worst nightmare.

Mods, close this thread. I refuse to enable an angry feminist rally. Good lord.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Oh God, I just read all of the last 4 pages
> 
> 
> This has become my worst nightmare.
> ...


 But, but,but, ...

I've called you a misandrist on a couple of occasions because you were acting that way. I don't believe in the big scheme of things you are. I think on occasion you kneejerk to the wrong men and generalize. Pretty much the same thing you accuse many men of, and some of them deserve it, for certain. But calling misogyny is as big of a conversation stopper as throwing the racist card, so you won't get much rational discussion after that. Calling misandry doesn't seem to get that reaction because it's rarely known what it even is without a google search.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> *This is really not helpful to the real victims who were assaulted.* Made up ‘statistics’ are in fact just as bad as it just fuels blind hatred against a whole gender. Fortunately, these people make up 0.00000000000000000001% of women (it’s my turn to guess now; and I rounded up!).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 That was exactly my point. It's a HUGE disservice to real victims, and should be denounced as so by all women everywhere, all the time. Exactly like Dusk expects.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

_


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Oh God, I just read all of the last 4 pages
> 
> 
> This has become my worst nightmare.
> ...


 Aww c'mon @personof interest ,
So far it has gone in 2 directions you had no intention of it going. Leave it open this could actually solve all the worlds problems (42) in one thread if it's drift rate stays as high as it is.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I just can't be a party to the ranty, angry, man hating, hairy woman movement. Everything in me as a woman is so nauseated by it I just can't.

And as a survivor of both rape and mollis station, I cringe every time I see the phrase me to. Because none of the loudest of those people actually care about people like me. They just hate penises.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I just can't be a party to the ranty, angry, man hating, hairy woman movement. Everything in me as a woman is so nauseated by it I just can't.
> 
> And as a survivor of both rape and mollis station, *I cringe every time I see the phrase me to.* Because none of the loudest of those people actually care about people like me. They just hate penises.


 I was curious as to your thoughts on that considering your history.
I expect this holds true often. Just like any political movement (that's what it is) the loudest chatter comes from a fraction of a percent of the group they supposedly represent. Mainstream media and "community organizing"(think Soros foundations) are the fuel for all of that. When was the last time you heard the term "locker room talk" before Trump's blunder? You didn't. MSM pushed that and the whole pink hat movement. Before Obama was in office and social justice warriors there wasn't near as much division between races, social classes, or genders. He/his administration weaponized those bias to divide and conquer, and Trump hasn't done much to slow it down. So the "passive" bias thing would appear to be an evolving, actually, devolving thing.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Mollie's station (LOL) is that a train station or a cattle ranch? 

I know it's your speech to text converter but this is much better than six.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My phone has passive bias against Southern accents lol. But at least my phone doesn't scream at me or have hairy arm pits haha


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Mollie's station (LOL) is that a train station or a cattle ranch?
> 
> I know it's your speech to text converter but this is much better than six.


 I thought maybe she triggered if she spelled it out properly.:scratchhead: I still don't think about voice to text, I just automatically assume most people misspell or mis-use everything.
Could this be the reason you see "women"plural used for "woman" singular ALL of the time? 
Does spell checker correct the V2T?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Mr. Nail said:
> 
> 
> > Mollie's station (LOL) is that a train station or a cattle ranch?
> ...


 I have a condition that often causes joint pain and soreness in my hands, especially the right one, so I use talk to text a lot.

Just about the only time I type is if I am at my laptop, and most of the time I am using my phone.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Here are two examples:
> 
> 1. "Men are uncomfortable with their girlfriends having male friends because of they way women monkey-branch." The first part of that sentence is neutral. The second part exhibits bias.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the examples. 

1. I think this is a popular bias with both men and women. Is it true? Well, I think it is a bias because men and women who have been hurt by a partner who often moved on to others likely never knew their intentions due to their own denial, lurv, or some other personal issues. 

2. It is true that women are attractive to hetero men and homosexual women. The more skin that is shown when on a date, which is inherently about becoming serious with someone, someday, the less the man or homosexual woman may hear and the more they will be distracted. It's biological for the men. I don't think you would want to reprogram that. Some who have been, find it difficult to become as easily aroused by their mate, due to constantly being on the look out for bias and checking their desires at the door when they come home.


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