# Sexually naive or selfish??



## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Not going to go into a ton of details but let me just give you all some info before the question-

Married 25 years, wife and I are mid 40's, married young. Have two teen kids. Wife is on BC pills-was off pill for a couple years after last child born, I had a V about maybe 7-8 years ago, she got off BC but got back on about 3 years or so ago, because of irregular periods-and very heavy bleeding-she went to doc got a checkup-checked a lot of things, put on pill and still on them today. Of course I have read this is a libido killer but my wife is LD even off the pill, just worse on it from what I see. I would love to get her off the pill and honestly at her age I am not sure why the doc keeps her on them-I have read about pre-menopause and seems irregular periods are normal, but it is her body so I let her do what she feels is best along with the doctor. 

My question is this, my wife knows I have a higher drive than she does-I consider myself middle libido as I would be thrilled with 2-3x a week but now we are 2-3x a month if that, usually 1 or 2x a month. We used to fight about this issue a lot and she told me about 8-9 years ago that sex was just not a priority for her, and she was sorry she couldn't be the woman I would like her to be-I was speechless and we have not had any fights about sex since that day. I have told her two things since then, basically I consider the physical (sexual) part of our marriage dead based on her comments, AND that I am always ready when/if she is. I am a green light at all times-unless I am really sick, in which case she wouldn't want to be around me anyway (maybe the dead part was harsh but her comments just left me not knowing what to say). Her knowing this, it seems sometimes she might offer a helping hand-BJ's are out, she used to give them when we we were dating and early in the marriage but last one I got was 5 years ago. She has NEVER just offered me a hand job when she knows she either can't (sex when on her period) has always been frowned on by her and not allowed, or she simply just is not in the mood-but knows I am horny. When I say never, I say in our 25 years, she has never just said-I want to please you. Back in the days when I would initiate, she would never say-I don't want to have sex with you now but I will help you out?? I read on forums all the time about women saying they were not in the mood but still helped a man out. Funny thing is, I once told her I had masturbated at times during a fight we had about sex-she was PISSED off and said it really bothered her that I would do that behind her back-but she still doesn't offer to help me out to this day? So, is she just selfish, naive or what?? 

There have been many times over the years when we don't have time or ability to have intercourse but I would take care of her so to speak under the covers-it is a bit easier to do this and not have to worry about kids coming than her helping me out-kids walk in and they see the erection under the sheets (yes, we lock the door when sex happens but when you are being spontaneous you don't want to get up to lock the door). I guess I just wonder why she never thinks to give me a helping hand, especially when she is rarely in the mood, has often times said a reason she doesn't want to have sex at a particular time is because of the "mess" as she calls it-she has complained about the mess I leave inside her. She seems to view sex as something we are both doing or neither of us are doing type of deal-except the times where she will allow me to get her off-but that is the thing, I have always enjoyed getting her off as much as I enjoy getting off-heck, I have actually had an orgasm while going down on my wife-is that normal?? We have had some mutual masturbation sessions which I find really erotic and she does as well-but again, both of us are involved. Am I being selfish for asking if she is selfish-I could see someone saying that as well because sometimes I do feel selfish for thinking the way I do. 

Anyhow, I just thought I would get your take. I am not divorcing my wife and I am not talking to her about this-been there too many times and I have grown to accept what I have is what I have, maybe just need to get opinions-do you think she is just naive (claims to have never self masturbated and thinks it is gross, porn is gross, talking dirty during sex is something she frowns on), she has no idea about male sexuality, she had no idea what a wet dream was for example until I told her, didn't know what BJ was referring to until I told her. Very conservative for sure but early in our relationship, she was the aggressor. I love this woman and will never leave her, but I continue to pray each day that something will happen to change her-because I KNOW I can't change her, has to come from within. We have had friends get divorced as well, and lack of sex played a part, but that still has not changed her. She is what she is and her comments about sex not being a priority, and sorry for not being the woman I would like her to be are truly the reality of the situation. So, what do you all think-is she just truly naive to my sexuality as a man or just a selfish person?? Or both or neither. I have to admit, she is so far from selfish in so many other areas of life, but sometimes I guess I am just throwing myself a pity party. I guess I would just like to know that my wife values trying to make me happy-even if she is not in the mood. Kind of like when I do various things with her and for her that I would rather not do, shopping, running errands for her, cleaning/cooking, laundry etc etc, I do it because I feel like it is part of my responsibility as husband, like I mentioned before, sometimes maybe I am just selfish in my way of thinking but sometimes I think, why doesn't she even think to do this on her own?? Oh well, thanks for reading.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I have always felt that anyone can do something that they are "indifferent" about for the other person. Whatever it involves, it can be done, and on an emotional level it should make them happy to make you happy. My mom needs that bookcase moved from upstairs to the downstairs. Ok honey, I don't want to ****ing do it, but because I love you I will and I'll be happy doing it cause it makes you happy.

I don't get the lack of intimacy for couples assuming the love and happiness is there. Even if it is just for one person's benefit, that should make you happy. You need intimacy in a marriage. It's not an option and it isn't a marriage without it. I have read all the LD and HD and other issues people have, and I am skeptical. I think there is just something brewing underneath it all that keeps the intimacy from happening. Whether it's you, or her or other psychological issues.

Nobody is ever selfish for wanting to bang their spouse. Ever.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Honestly, if I were your wife, I would avoid anything sexual with you like the plague. You approach her like she is has to do one more chore for you. That is not just unattractive, it is repulsive. Furthermore, you won't divorce her. What would her impetus be to do anything different?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Read about the 180.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

In my humble opinion, it would be extremely easy to label her as being selfish based on what you've posted. From what you've posted, she doesn't want to compromise, she doesn't feel the "need to" or "want to" satisfy her husband, and she doesn't feel the need to address her LD at all. At the very least, she is extremely naïve about sexual issues.

I would say she needs to see a REAL doctor who will address what's causing her complete lack of interest.

The thing is, LD partners really don't "get" it when it comes to real sexual desire, and the physical needs it entails. Just because they don't view sex as something they "want", why would a normal person have the "want"? They will never see the actual "need" because of the lack of "want".

Just my two cents. I admire you're being able to stick it out, but personally, I wouldn't be able to without an actual physical reason for no accommodation.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Well NS, she pretty much does avoid anything sexual with me-so guess you have it pegged. She is happy with how things are in our relationship being the lower drive spouse, she doesn't want a divorce any more than I do so we are stuck!!  

Seriously, I just read comments about wives saying that they will give their husbands the helping hand when they are either unable or just don't want to have sex, she has never offered in 25 years. Just seems to me that if you are not interested-your husband is and you have turned him down, you might be willing to help him out?? Maybe I am wrong. I know I would certainly be willing to do whatever she needed if I was not able to have sex for whatever reason and I knew she was horny. But, you are correct, she does view sex with me as a chore it does seem-what is the 180?? I will have to check that out.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Oh, for what it is worth, a hysterectomy for me was AWESOME. I also suffered from heavy bleeding. Docs wanted me to try various BC. Did not work all that well and made me whacky. So I finally convinced the doc to refer me to a surgeon. Bye bye uterus but kept my eggs. Just a thought.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Well NS, she pretty much does avoid anything sexual with me-so guess you have it pegged. She is happy with how things are in our relationship being the lower drive spouse, she doesn't want a divorce any more than I do so we are stuck!!
> 
> Seriously, I just read comments about wives saying that they will give their husbands the helping hand when they are either unable or just don't want to have sex, she has never offered in 25 years.


And you would want that? I mean, why not get a blow up doll? My stomach turns when I read your outlook on sex. Sex is SHARED. If you just want an external body, why not ask her how she feels about you seeing prostitutes. Then she does not have to bother.



> Just seems to me that if you are not interested-your husband is and you have turned him down, you might be willing to help him out??


If that is how my husband viewed sex, I would be more likely to throw up on him, if you want to know the truth.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Luvherlife-

Thanks for the reply, she is LD for sure but I just think she is really naive. I mean, I had to tell her what BJ stands for, there are other examples. She is a very smart woman, holding several degrees but I bet she has never once read anything on male sexuality, and despite the fact I have told her many times that sex/intimacy is how I feel connected to her, she doesn't get it. Once we read the 5 love languages, her love language was quality time, mine was of course physical touch. When I graded out physical touch she wouldn't buy it, she said I know you like sex but I think you are more quality time like me. If our kids had an issue in their lives, she would jump on it, research the situation and problem-become and expert. But, when I express my feelings years ago-I mean we had a BIG fight, she never once looked up male sexuality. Her thought process is, I will never be happy with the amount of sex I have, the more she gives the more I will want-which I have told her is NOT true. I love her, my kids and my life, I have no reason to leave-I just want to have more intimacy with my wife-and heck, I think 1x a week is pretty reasonable.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

NS, I do want a shared experience, maybe 1x a week. My wife is fine with a lot less than that. SO, what do you expect?? What are your suggestions. And I ask you-if your husband is in the mood and you are not-what happens?? Do you say no, and that is that? Just curious. If you have not had sex is 3 weeks, your husband initiates with you and you say no, what should your husband do or would you say-I am not in the mood but I know you are, I will help you out. Now, if you are not in the mood and you say-no, but you can go take care of yourself-is that ok? My wife is against me taking care of myself.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

NS, as for hysterectomy, I would never suggest that-I let my wife and her doctor determine what is needed, and then I support that decision. If that is something that happens, so be it. Despite what you might think, I want my wife happy and healthy-and a tad bit more sexual. I just know that I have read BC pills can impact libido and my wife is already low in that area to start with. I had the V so she could get off the pill, but yet she is back on the pill. We are DONE with kids, so I said you had the babies, I will take care of birth control. Oh well, I am used to my wife being the way she is, I just dream of a day where maybe she could revert back to the days before we were married, when she seemed a lot more in the mood.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> NS, I do want a shared experience, maybe 1x a week. My wife is fine with a lot less than that. SO, what do you expect?? What are your suggestions. And I ask you-if your husband is in the mood and you are not-what happens??


We have never ever in our lives measure how many times per week. He does not want a blow up doll actor x number of times per week. He wants ME, all of it, active and engaged. If I did not want it, he would not want it either. And that makes me want him a LOT. 



> Do you say no, and that is that? Just curious. If you have not had sex is 3 weeks, your husband initiates with you and you say no, what should your husband do or would you say-I am not in the mood but I know you are, I will help you out.


Ew. He has a hand. He knows what to do with it. 



> Now, if you are not in the mood and you say-no, but you can go take care of yourself-is that ok? My wife is against me taking care of myself.


Well that is just dumb. Was she raised Catholic, per chance? Or some other sexually repressed religiousness? It is your body. Yours. She does not own it. If she did, well then so too would you own hers. And you clearly don't. She can be as against it as she likes. Tough. Don't hide it. I mean don't throw it in her face. But be honest. Mrs Pap, this is my body, and if I want to take care of it I will. Period. I would much rather share loving time with you. But it is what it is. Calm, direct and unapologetic. 

I am wondering if No More Mr Nice Guy would be helpful to you. You need to get your man card back somehow. Or did you ever have one? Are you trying to get something back that you never had? In yourself? With your wife? 

One thing I can guarantee you, and you probably already know, asking and talking and pleading will do nothing. Work on yourself. That is all you can do. If you don't work out, start. Spiff up your clothes and hairstyle. Start hanging out with the guys. Be cheerful, fun and funny. And stop haranguing her for sex. But in the final analysis, if she is not interested in sex with you, and you are unwilling to stand up for the life you want, then she holds all the cards, and you are screwed.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> NS, as for hysterectomy, I would never suggest that-I let my wife and her doctor determine what is needed, and then I support that decision.


Why? You cannot even bring it up as a topic of conversation? Hey this woman on the internet had wicked heavy periods (I will spare you the TMI) and was really happy after having a hysterectomy. Or not if you then have to admit to posting in a marriage forum. But really, why would you be unable to broach a subject with your wife?



> If that is something that happens, so be it. Despite what you might think, I want my wife happy and healthy-and a tad bit more sexual. I just know that I have read BC pills can impact libido and my wife is already low in that area to start with.


Forget libido. Don't even go there. I am thinking back to the weeks (es weekS) long periods and the extreme measures needed to control it. No more. No more. Blessed relief. And hey while we are in there, let's take the cervix too. No more risk of cervical cancer. Bonus.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

My wife is also very naïve when it comes to sex, but she will accommodate me even when she is not in the mood, which is rare because she does enjoy sex, even though sometimes it takes a long time for her to get warmed up. The few times where she doesn't want PIV, all I have to do is show her my erection and she'll give me a HJ while sucking on my nipples. She has a gag reflex from hell, so BJs are not in the equation. My thinking over the years is that she is at best a MD woman, but she "acts" like she is HD just to please me. I think this is extremely unselfish of her, and something that she does because she know it will keep me happy. After 19-1/2 years together, I have never "had" to go solo.

The fact that your wife doesn't accommodate you tells me she has a selfish nature when it comes to sex, and has gotten away with it for so long that she feels she can stay that way. Sometimes, an argument CAN be healthy if the point is made without saying things that can't be unsaid, in my opinion.

LD people don't view sex the same way "normal" sex drive people do, and most don't really feel a need to change that view. I feel that LD is something that can be fixed in most cases, whether it be a physical problem (hormones being the most common), a psychological problem, or a combination of both. There is absolutely no reason, in my opinion, for anybody to go through life without enjoying the natural pleasure of sex, not to mention the physical, emotional, and spiritual connection it provides. These people are really missing out, and assuming they get the problem corrected, they will look back at their life and be remorseful for the lost time.

She really needs to address her LD not only for you, but for herself. She has no idea what she's missing.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I get where NS is coming from. ..... you don't seem particularly connected to your wife in the bedroom and are basically looking for her to service you.

Maybe this is your frustration talking or maybe you didn't mean it to come across like that, it just sounds so mechanical the way you describe it. Thus the blow up doll comments. 

Could you actually get off with a woman who's just there service you? Many would find that turnoff number one. There are guys all over TAM who complain about how empty it is have a woman who can't wait for it to be over because she's doing them a favor. 

Sometimes partners do that for each other but that's in the scope of an otherwise healthy sex life, which you don't have. 

I don't get your comparisons to doing chores you don't want to do..... do you see chores as her responsibility that you do her a huge favor to help with? I guess I see chores as a shared responsibility because you both live there. If you see them as her job maybe that's part of your problem. 

But you are reasonable to want a sex life. .... i would submit that few women are ld though. Most of the ones you'd call ld are not turned on by their partner. .... that's you. 

There could be lots of reasons for it, many of which have nothing to do with you. It could be anything from you're a selfish lover to she has hang ups you don't know about and thus can't address. 

Has there ever been a time that she enjoyed sex with you and you had a decent sex life? Please don't say she was always like this and you married her anyway. Have you asked her if she thinks it's reasonable for you to refrain from taking care of yourself when you only get her a few times a month?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Yep, NS, I want my wife too but I am a numbers guy, and if I put a number on what I would like a week, I would say 2-3x would make me happy but my wife doesn't want/need it that much so I say if we could have sex 1x a week, that would be a nice compromise. My wife is very naive sexually, she was raised to believe sex is dirty for sure. I do work out, I coach, I volunteer in other ways, help around the house. I am a good guy-nice guy or whatever and proud of it. I don't think men have to be pricks to get their way-just my belief. I also love my family, wife, life but I would like to have more intimacy with my wife. As I pointed out in another thread to you, when we can afford to get away, she is reluctant to leave the kids but once away, the passion/intimacy is very good-when home, life gets in the way. BUT, she never plans ANYTHING, I do it all and my point is, sometimes it is nice for someone to do something nice for you-it makes you feel special and wanted. I would find the money to get away with my wife this weekend if she brought it up. As it is, I will have to suggest we get away again-then plan it all for us to do it. As for her body, it is her body and I am NOT going to suggest surgery so maybe she might be more in the mood. 

Bottom line, you obviously don't agree with me or think much of me with how you have posted-cool by me but no sense in continuing. You think I am a wuss and my wife does hold all the cards-I don't deny that. Happy day to you.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

She enjoys sex when it happens lifeistooshort, but life gets in the way-when we can get away, she is passionate and we have great sex-but when we get home-nothing. And perhaps I didn't express myself very well-I guess my thought process was in posting, if my wife turns me down but can obviously see I am horny, is it asking too much for her to get me off?? I have also read women say, they will help their husbands out when they are on their period each month etc. I am just saying, in 25 years to never offer when she sees I am in the mood?? I have told her many times that sex is how I feel the connection to her, it is MUCH more than just sex, but I don't think she gets that-again, she needs to understand male sexuality-my sexuality better. She does believe it is all about me getting off, but I have tried to share with her-it is so much more. She doesn't get it. She can tell/see how connected and happy I am after we have sex, she has made comments. I am not bitter/angry when we don't have sex, I used to be early in the marriage but I have matured beyond that point many years ago. I don't demand sex and never did, I simply wanted my wife. Oh well, I guess I need to stay away from posting here because somehow this turned into me just wanting a sex doll.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't see where it's implied that you're a wuss, though maybe I've missed it.

I also agree that you don't need to be a pr!ck, in fact that would end my hb's sex life with me. 

I think NS is saying that if your sex life is that important then you need to tell your wife in the most loving way that you can't remain in a sexless marriage, but up don't want to be simply serviced either. So you want to work with her to find something that makes you both happy.

Your wife is doing herself a real disservice with the sex is dirty thinking, she's depriving herself of something wonderful. But it does make sense that she was all over you. ....i saw that after my last comment. 

She sees sex as something men want and women provide but aren't supposed to get anything out of, so she offered it up but never really enjoyed it. 

This is an unfortunate remnant of our grandfathers trying to control womens sexuality. 
Respectable women didn't enjoy it, only wh0res did. 

Are you willing to gently tell your wife that you won't remain with no sex but you are willing to do anything and everything to help her enjoy it too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Do you ever just ask her for a helping hand?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Yep, NS, I want my wife too but I am a numbers guy, and if I put a number on what I would like a week, I would say 2-3x would make me happy but my wife doesn't want/need it that much so I say if we could have sex 1x a week, that would be a nice compromise. My wife is very *naive sexually*, she was raised to believe sex is dirty for sure.


Sorry, dude, but so are you.



> I do work out, I coach, I volunteer in other ways, help around the house. I am a good guy-nice guy or whatever and proud of it.


There is nothing wrong with being a good man. Even better. (I was talking about Nice Guy not nice guy.) Why are you "helping" around the house? Does your wife work outside the home? Why is housework also not your responsibility?



> I don't think men have to be pricks to get their way-just my belief. I also love my family, wife, life but I would like to have more intimacy with my wife. As I pointed out in another thread to you, when we can afford to get away, she is reluctant to leave the kids but once away, the passion/intimacy is very good-when home, life gets in the way. BUT, she never plans ANYTHING, I do it all and my point is, sometimes it is nice for someone to do something nice for you-it makes you feel special and wanted.


So this is not meant to be harsh. She doesn't want you. She has shown that she does not want you. We know that what you have been doing is not working. You have lost whatever man card you may have had. If you had one, you need it back. If you never had one, you need to grow one.



> I would find the money to get away with my wife this weekend if she brought it up. As it is, I will have to suggest we get away again-then plan it all for us to do it.


Or not. You are not doing it for her. She has already shown she is not interested. So don't do it. You jumo through hoops to get a little. It is unattractive. Beggy. Go fishing by yourself. Or whatever it is you like to do. Did you see the suggestions for the 180? There are tons of threads on here about the 180. 




> As for her body, it is her body and I am NOT going to suggest surgery so maybe she might be more in the mood.


I was not actually suggesting surgery for her to be more in the mood. I was suggesting surgery as a solution to the problem of heavy bleeding which cannot be fun for her. I was sharing my experience about how much excessive bleeding sucks and a possible solution. My suggestion had nothing at all to do with sex. I would bet my left eye that finding your man card would be FAR more effective than the removal of BC. That was not even on my radar. I am sort of interested that you seem scared to bring a fairly benign topic up with your wife.



> Bottom line, you obviously don't agree with me or think much of me with how you have posted-cool by me but no sense in continuing. You think I am a wuss and my wife does hold all the cards-I don't deny that. Happy day to you.


Actually I was trying to be helpful to you. But this is telling. You know you have checked your man card at the marital door. And you are cool with that?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why stop posting? You came across a certain way but you can always clarify what you meant. 
It's hard to express yourself to strangers online. ....i say stuff all the time that's not taken how I meant it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

@PAPS18, I agree that NS is just trying to tell you to man. I disagree with how you are being told. Your story reads a lot like mine did. My ex actually told me once "I don't even think about it (having sex with you) because I am just too busy". So I completely understand how having the woman you love and want to be with tell you that she doesn't even think about doing the one thing that you only do with that one other person in the world. She may have just ripped my balls off when she told me that! I do think you are doing yourself a disservice by not confronting the issue head on. Either it will get better or it will not, but either way you will have your answer and know which way YOU need to go to make yourself happy. I can tell you, I tried your way because I LOVED this woman with all my heart, but in the end the resentment, rejection and disappointment I felt would not allow me to be happy or even just content. Do yourself a favor - read No More Mr Nice Guy and then apply the 180 - not for her or your relationship - but for you. You deserve to be happy, you deserve to have the best life you can make yourself. You don't need to settle.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

I will still post, no worries. I just disagree with NS, it is all good. She doesn't know me but thinks she does!! Same as I don't know her. She is trying to help, I guess-the man card is her way of trying to make me look like a wuss. But I know myself so I will just ignore what she says. As to talking with her-I have been there and done that over and over and over. I am simply done with that. She knows the deal-why beat a dead horse. My point of the original post was after reading women say they help their men out even if they are not in the mood, I was thinking-that has never happened to me?? And I have said, that is NOT want I want-but it means more for her to do that than me to excuse myself and do it myself, as alternative to what I really want. My wife at home thinks of EVERYTHING that must be done, and her job is demanding-that takes a lot of her time-I leave my work at work. I do a lot of stuff for me, I also am involved in the community-so no worries-I don't just sit and mope and wait for her. Simply no sense expanding, everyone has an opinion and I appreciate the comments-even if I don't agree with some of them.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> @PAPS18, I agree that NS is just trying to tell you to man. I disagree with how you are being told.


Sorry. I think in an attempt to be clear I have come across as unkind. Sorry Pap, not my intention. You seem a good dude.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> I will still post, no worries. I just disagree with NS, it is all good. She doesn't know me but thinks she does!! Same as I don't know her. She is trying to help, I guess-the man card is her way of trying to make me look like a wuss.


Why would I want to make you look like a wuss? I AM asking you to consider the way YOU act to determine if you can choose different actions in the hopes of getting a different REaction.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Thanks NS, that means a lot-I don't think of myself as a wuss, but I am a good guy-who loves his family, tries to live the right way and treat people with respect. I was offended by your tone honestly but then realized it was your way of trying to help-so thanks for trying. Bottom line is this-my wife is a good person and I love her with all my heart. I will continue to treat her the way I would like to be treated, and I will take what she is able to give me. For better or worse means something to me. You can be a good man and maybe come across as less of man to some-I am fine if that is how I am viewed. I am happy with the person I am, I just want my wife more than she wants me-has always been that way and always will. BUT, we are not sexless, just not as often as I would like and sometimes I wish she would better understand me-I have told her countless times but it doesn't sink in. I guess there are a lot of situations in life where you have to walk in someone elses shoes to truly understand. For some reason, a post I made came across in some strange way I guess-but oh well.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

She is probably a bit of both. She is naive because she doesn't realize how important sex is to you and it's not just the physical act it's the bonding too. She is selfish because she should put more effort into your sex life even when she doesn't feel like it, even if it's just a HJ. I imagine she cleans, cooks and does laundry when she doesn't feel like it. What would happen if she stopped doing these things? She should add "make husband happy in bed" to the list. You know it's not going to change in fact as she reaches menopause odds are your sex life will probably decline. You said you aren't going to divorce her so just be happy with the amount of sex you are getting.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Thanks NS, that means a lot-I don't think of myself as a wuss, but I am a good guy-who loves his family, tries to live the right way and treat people with respect. I was offended by your tone honestly but then realized it was your way of trying to help-so thanks for trying. Bottom line is this-my wife is a good person and I love her with all my heart. I will continue to treat her the way I would like to be treated, and I will take what she is able to give me. For better or worse means something to me. You can be a good man and maybe come across as less of man to some-I am fine if that is how I am viewed.


Mah. You have no reason to give a rootie tootie what anyone on the internet thinks of you, especially me. The manliness I was trying to convey, in the form of personal boundary setting, was meant to increase your attractiveness (not appearance!) to your wife directly as well as probably improve self esteem which would do the same indirectly. I imagine that not receiving the feeling of being special and wanted has to take a bite out of self esteem.




> I am happy with the person I am, I just want my wife more than she wants me-has always been that way and always will. BUT, we are not sexless, just not as often as I would like and sometimes I wish she would better understand me-I have told her countless times but it doesn't sink in. I guess there are a lot of situations in life where you have to walk in someone elses shoes to truly understand. For some reason, a post I made came across in some strange way I guess-but oh well.


I was in your wife's shoes. I thought my perspective might help. Cheers.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Thanks happilymarried, that is what I have tried to do, be happy for what I have. Life is too short to complain-I complained today and in doing so, got jumped pretty good. I didn't think I deserved it but maybe I did-I obviously did to some. But, as our kids get older and away, I am hopeful that she will have more time for me perhaps-if not, so be it. I don't initiate with her any longer-I have stopped doing that for the most part because THAT did damage my self esteem. So now I wait for her, when I feel the need, I take care of me.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Hey @PAPS18 ,
Your situation is similar to mine. Your question that keeps returning is Is it to much to ask for her to help you out in another way when she isn't interested? This Idea really offends some people here. I think there are a lot of other issues. But despite all the Ews and vomit comments I'm going to answer it. My wife's stated preference for sexual frequency is 3 times a month. no closer than a week and usually on a day she hasn't worked. She likes mornings as much as evenings. My preferred frequency is about every day and a half, but can stretch out for 4 days if I get 2 within 24 hours. So our differences are similar to yours. 

My wife also has the ego-centrism enough that she honestly thinks that if she is happy with the sex I must be as well. The difference is that she figures it out, eventually. Probably because I do sulk and get ornery. And sometimes go for very long drives. But unlike your wife my wife often, but not as often as my desire rises, does offer me a hand. Oh and she likes messes. Completely resists the Idea of containing it in a condom. She knows I'm not going to make it through her entire period so she PLANS an activity for me in the middle. You are absolutely right this really makes you feel like someone loves you. 

I'm sure that has just made you jealous. Here is my thinking. you have 2 problems. One she has at some point in her life got the idea that a good wife's job is to control and limit her husbands sex drive. (thus the upset that you override her control with self service.) And 2 she is really worried that the kids will hear something. Fix those problems (may require counseling) and you won't be begging for scraps because you will be getting regular meals. Oh and get the kids out of the house 2 x a month.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

PAPS18 said:


> Funny thing is, I once told her I had masturbated at times during a fight we had about sex-


On a side note, rereading your original post made me giggle at this.

I bet there is no better way to stop a fight than whipping it out and starting to choke the chicken.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Herschel said:


> On a side note, rereading your original post made me giggle at this.
> 
> I bet there is no better way to stop a fight than whipping it out and starting to choke the chicken.


LOL! That would be hysterical!


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

So how am I supposed to feel with regards to my wife and I...we have a very active sex life, but on the rare days that she doesn't feel up to having sex, she'll offer to take care of me in one way or another. I decline much of the time, but not always. Am I supposed to feel bad about that?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> So how am I supposed to feel with regards to my wife and I...we have a very active sex life, but on the rare days that she doesn't feel up to having sex, she'll offer to take care of me in one way or another. I decline much of the time, but not always. Am I supposed to feel bad about that?


I am assuming that if she is offering, then she is not in a head space to feel pressured,


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am assuming that if she is offering, then she is not in a head space to feel pressured,


I get what you are saying about feeling "pressured" and I am mixed on this. We often feel like we are "pressured" to do a lot of things. We put sexual relations in a box different than everything else. Often for good reasons, but often not. 

Now, I am not saying you should be pressuring anyone for sex, and maybe I am treading on dangerous ground here, but your spouse should feel like they need to be intimate with you as well as satisfy you. If this is done in an abusive way or at absurd times, I can understand. And if you feel like you have to "pressure" your spouse to help satisfy you, you are in a bad spot to begin with.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Paps makes the point that she has never once offered in 25 years to "help him out". I may be missing it by a mile, but I believe the heart of the issue here is his perception that she just doesn't give a damn about him, not a matter of expecting her to service him.


Also, Paps, as far as her not allowing you to take care of yourself--put your big boy pants on--them take them off again and rub one out on her pillow. Then take a picture of it and send it to her with a "wish you were here"


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Herschel said:


> I get what you are saying about feeling "pressured" and I am mixed on this. We often feel like we are "pressured" to do a lot of things. We put sexual relations in a box different than everything else. Often for good reasons, but often not.
> 
> Now, I am not saying you should be pressuring anyone for sex, and maybe I am treading on dangerous ground here, but your spouse should feel like they need to be intimate with you as well as satisfy you. If this is done in an abusive way or at absurd times, I can understand. And if you feel like you have to "pressure" your spouse to help satisfy you, you are in a bad spot to begin with.


And where is the line between a simple request, and pressuring, and what constitutes crossing it?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> And where is the line between a simple request, and pressuring, and what constitutes crossing it?


When the recipient of the request feels pressured. And worse, when it is a consistent pattern of the relationship. It will not breed anything good. Sex IS different. It is one of the most intimate things. It can also be a very vulnerable exposure.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> And where is the line between a simple request, and pressuring, and what constitutes crossing it?


I don't know...it's tough, and really subjective for the person and their spouse. Some relationships thrive on the chase, some thrive on scheduling, some...whatever...

All I know, and coming from 2 marriages, one was sexless (she was gay, go figure) and one was the exact opposite, it is difficult to feel close to your spouse if they don't enjoy being intimate, which is really one of the most basic primal needs. It's more than just sex and orgasms, but sometimes it can be just that. 

I feel awful for marriages that have sex less than once a week. Sex is really the best thing you can do with your spouse. I am sure people will argue with that...but I can't think of anything more enjoyable.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Paps makes the point that she has never once offered in 25 years to "help him out". I may be missing it by a mile, but I believe the heart of the issue here is his perception that she just doesn't give a damn about him, not a matter of expecting her to service him.
> 
> 
> Also, Paps, as far as her not allowing you to take care of yourself--put your big boy pants on--them take them off again and rub one out on her pillow. Then take a picture of it and send it to her with a "wish you were here"


Paps should have his own line of movies if he could write "wish you were here". I mean, I'd pay big monies to see that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Herschel said:


> I get what you are saying about feeling "pressured" and I am mixed on this. We often feel like we are "pressured" to do a lot of things. We put sexual relations in a box different than everything else. Often for good reasons, but often not.
> 
> Now, I am not saying you should be pressuring anyone for sex, and maybe I am treading on dangerous ground here, but your spouse should feel like they need to be intimate with you as well as satisfy you. If this is done in an abusive way or at absurd times, I can understand. And if you feel like you have to "pressure" your spouse to help satisfy you, you are in a bad spot to begin with.


I think that in general people "should" recognize that marriage is a sexual relationship. But the thing about "should" is one cannot require someone else to meet their shoulds, And exactly what "a sexual relationship" means could be very different for very different people. In Paps case, his wife is meeting the letter of the should.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> She is probably a bit of both. She is naive because she doesn't realize how important sex is to you and it's not just the physical act it's the bonding too. She is selfish because she should put more effort into your sex life even when she doesn't feel like it, even if it's just a HJ. I imagine she cleans, cooks and does laundry when she doesn't feel like it. What would happen if she stopped doing these things? She should add "make husband happy in bed" to the list. You know it's not going to change in fact as she reaches menopause odds are your sex life will probably decline. You said you aren't going to divorce her so just be happy with the amount of sex you are getting.


Who would have thunk... A textbook combination of "evil" and"stupid" (kindly note the quotes, I will have to ask my intern to do a proper literature survey). When Dr. John proposed it a few years ago in this here TAM there were people rioting...

You're dealing with a fairly common mix of naivete and selfishness. Your task is to find out what ranges of percentages of each you're dealing with. Nobody's generally only one. 

Once you figure this out then you can start looking into background, causality, etc - root causes. Save your energy and 180 until you know what you're dealing with. The motives for both extremes are not the same. 

Generally a lot of selfishness points to control issues, lack of self confidence, trust, etc. A lot of naivete is more likely to be upbringing or beliefs or culture.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think that in general people "should" recognize that marriage is a sexual relationship. But the thing about "should" is one cannot require someone else to meet their shoulds, And exactly what "a sexual relationship" means could be very different for very different people. *In Paps case, his wife is meeting the letter of the should.*




i don't think i would want to be in a marriage where one spouse 'meeting the the letter of should' is a gauge of of being a generous husband/wife.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I really didn't respond tot he OP basic question of whether she is sexually naive or selfish. I can only speak from my own experience, but here goes:

I personally think it is a matter of both. My ex was relatively inexperienced when we got married. She had been in a sexless marriage before. She said they only had sex like five times in the five years they were married. Prior to that she had only had sex with her HS boyfriend. She, like your wife, claims that she had never masturbated. She also viewed her vagina as yucky. After the few times I was allowed to go down her, I had to scrub my teeth with battery acid, gargle with gasoline and wash my face with paint solvent before I was allowed to give her a kiss. Sex was always under the covers, in the dark and I always had to be gentle because her breasts were tender, her she was swollen or she was bloated or whatever reason it was that day. 
Like you, I tried to talk about our sex life and did so from the stand point of how I needed to be with her so that I could feel closer to her. I wanted us to be closer as a couple. I wanted to feel connected. I tried to explain how detached I felt when we went weeks without sex. It was never just "me want sex! You have duty to provide!" Of course her first response was anger that I was even keeping track. After that she would revert to her old stand by "I am doing the best I can and if you don't like it, I am leaving"
After a while I gave up. And just to amuse myself, I would wait to see just how long it would be until she offered. I was amazed at how days went into weeks on a regular basis.
Anyways, as I said she had been in a sexless marriage before and claimed she just assumed it was normal, since she didn't know any better. So maybe she was naive. But she also said she didn't like that her husband wasn't attracted to her, but then it apparently never occured to her that that was exactly what she was doing to me - hence she was also very selfish.
Your story sounds so much like mine that I could have written it myself. Although I waited until it was too late and she finally did leave.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> [/B]
> 
> i don't think i would want to be in a marriage where one spouse 'meeting the the letter of should' is a gauge of of being a generous husband/wife.


Absolutely! But in the context of sex being a hot button for the OP's marriage, she probably already feels pretty guilty with her 24 times her year. "Should" (aka guilt) is not going to open a woman raised with repressed sexuality.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Ynot-my wife will not allow me to kiss her either after going down on her, I have to go use mouthwash. The rare times in our marriage she has given me a BJ, I have no problem kissing her after-but that is the difference-I love sex and everything about it and she doesn't. She enjoys it when her mind allows her to let go and really engage in it, but she can live without it-which is something I just can't relate to and as I mentioned, we all have issues trying to relate to people ore situations when we have not walked in their shoes. As for under covers etc-we are never or rarely under covers, we are typically in different forms of missionary every time, sometimes she will get on top, she also likes doggie but most of the time pretty vanilla-really doesn't matter that much to me though, I like all positions-but I have to suggest we try something different. I agree with you though, I have never been selfish and demanding-I have been an ASS at times when being rejected-I will admit that. But when I hear the word, tired, I just call BS on that. I can be tired but that isn't stopping me from wanting my wife. I do know though that my wife was raised in a very conservative household-I was also but as a woman I think the implications are a bit different in our society-right or wrong, that is reality. I think even grown women, married for many years still have a hard time separating roles between Mom and wife etc. John117, I think my wife leans strongly to the naive side, I really don't think (I could be wrong but after 25 years, plus a couple more dating) my wife is a control freak when it comes to sex. I believe in her case it is upbringing and also just the lack of truly understanding male sexuality-she has made comments before that she doesn't think any amount of sex would make me happy-in our fights back in the day. She thinks that I just want to get off despite me telling her about the connection it brings for me, it is as if she thinks that is just a line I am feeding her to try to get more sex-despite what I tell her. I always take time for foreplay and make sex as pleasurable as I can for her-she has strong O's almost every time-unless she is the best actress in the world. I take my time, it is a slow build up but then wham. She can't talk sometimes after she cums, she has body shakes etc, but I relate to how I feel after I cum-and I think, I want to experience that again, sooner than later and so I just simply can't relate to why after that, she doesn't want sex more frequently. BUT, I have come to the conclusion that some people can be perfectly happy with that feeling less than others. Again, just hard to relate to other people.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> she probably already feels pretty guilty with her 24 times per year. "Should" (aka guilt) is not going to open a woman raised with repressed sexuality.


Yes, but I know from experience that patience, understanding, and years of time just make it easier to get to 8 times per year or less. There is going to be guilt no matter what. There should be. Few people have the expectation of getting married to be celibate. Marriage is about love, affection, and commitment to each other. Without those, you are not really married, you are roommates with a tax break.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Maybe she should get at the root of her repressed view on sex. Suggest she look at Christian websites such as Bonny's Oysterbed7, Christian nymphos, or the Marriage Bed to see that her views are antiquated, and not doctrinal.

Yes, Christians do reinforce sexual repression as a way to inhibit promiscuity among youth, but when they get married, that repressed attitude is null and void with their spouse. Eventually, most people raised in a Christian environment grow up to learn that sex inside a marriage is actually a GOOD thing, and that those boundaries that were in effect when one is single are not in effect after marriage.

Biblically speaking, she is committing a sin by withholding from her husband. If she really is a Christian, she REALLY needs to read 1 Corinthians 7. This will tell her, and you for that matter, the responsibilities of marriage. Being repressed, and withholding sex (without a just cause, i.e. physical problem, prayer, etc.) is a sin according to what I've read.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> I think LD people think that sex is a fun thing, like a vacation or eating dessert or something like that. We all would like more, but we don't *need* more of those. Having more than we need is being self-indulgent (they think). But actually, the sex drive is a hunger, a need that must be met in order for us to feel happy/loved/satisfied and in order for us to not be unbelievably frustrated daily.


Well said.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Luvher4life said:


> Maybe she should get at the root of her repressed view on sex. Suggest she look at Christian websites such as Bonny's Oysterbed7, Christian nymphos, or the Marriage Bed to see that her views are antiquated, and not doctrinal.
> 
> Yes, Christians do reinforce sexual repression as a way to inhibit promiscuity among youth, but when they get married, that repressed attitude is null and void with their spouse. Eventually, most people raised in a Christian environment grow up to learn that sex inside a marriage is actually a GOOD thing, and that those boundaries that were in effect when one is single are not in effect after marriage.
> 
> Biblically speaking, she is committing a sin by withholding from her husband. If she really is a Christian, she REALLY needs to read 1 Corinthians 7. This will tell her, and you for that matter, the responsibilities of marriage. Being repressed, and withholding sex (without a just cause, i.e. physical problem, prayer, etc.) is a sin according to what I've read.



Unfortunately, religion does not encourage situational thinking in anything. It is very child like in its rigid good or bad, right or wrong perspective. It's either black or white, with little room for grey areas.

With that mindset being driven in virtually all aspects of life, it can be difficult to downright impossible for religiously indoctrinated people to change gears where what is wrong and will land you in hell if you do it on June 30, is acceptable, even required on July 1.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> Yes, but I know from experience that patience, understanding, and years of time just make it easier to get to 8 times per year or less.


Absolutely! It is tacit agreement. 



> There is going to be guilt no matter what.


Why? 


> There should be. Few people have the expectation of getting married to be celibate. Marriage is about love, affection, and commitment to each other. Without those, you are not really married, you are roommates with a tax break.


I imagine that if you are in this position yourself also, that this is coming from a place of hurt. Otherwise it is not very loving. There is some reason a partner does not want to do a thing, and their partner wants to GUILT them into it? 

Regardless guilt is a **** motivator. Ask any recovered Catholic or any parent who has ever tried to guilt a kid into doing something. Guilt may change a person's behavior every once in a while, but it is a crap motivator for life changes.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> And you would want that? I mean, why not get a blow up doll? My stomach turns when I read your outlook on sex. Sex is SHARED. If you just want an external body, why not ask her how she feels about you seeing prostitutes. Then she does not have to bother.





NobodySpecial said:


> [OP: Just curious. If you have not had sex in 3 weeks, your husband initiates with you and you say no, what should your husband do? or would you say "I am not in the mood but I know you are, I will help you out."]
> 
> *Ew. He has a hand. He knows what to do with it. *


Seriously? And you're calling OP sexually naive? A handjob (standalone oral, whatever) given in a generous spirit is most certainly "shared" and shows loving consideration to boot. You're the one opting out of the sharing by framing it as a bothersome chore better outsourced to prostitutes. That callously dismissive outlook on sex turns MY stomach.

To OP I would say, your wife probably isn't naive but probably has a ton of toxic shame related to her conditioning. That you have good sex when you manage to get away says to me this is more about her inhibitions than you lacking attractiveness, although I agree cajoling her won't help. 

She's always needed some external element to temporarily override her aversions, whether it's the expectations of courtship, her biological clock, or the what-happens-in-Vegas license afforded by vacations. She doesn't offer to "take care of you" because at all other times she views your desire the same way she views hers: "Ew, disgusting". 

She knows deep down this isn't fair to you, and while I doubt she consciously wants to be selfish, she's had years to construct a mental narrative that rationalizes and absolves her, affirmed daily by your silent acquiescence. Hearing that you're masturbating blows a big hole in that narrative, hence her reaction. 

I do think you need to be willing to stand up for yourself in a way that isn't sulky or passive-aggressive. Could be asserting your needs and expectations openly and calmly, could be 180, could be stopping any Nice Guy/covert contract stuff you may be doing. But ultimately you need to show willingness to pursue your own happiness and to leave the marriage if that's what it takes. She won't change without doing a lot of work on herself, and right now nothing motivates her to do that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Phil Anders said:


> Seriously? And you're calling OP sexually naive? A handjob (standalone oral, whatever) given in a generous spirit is most certainly "shared" and shows loving consideration to boot. You're the one opting out of the sharing by framing it as a bothersome chore better outsourced to prostitutes. That callously dismissive outlook on sex turns MY stomach.


Have you read the thread at all? I am thinking not.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I imagine that if you are in this position yourself also, that this is coming from a place of hurt. Otherwise it is not very loving. There is some reason a partner does not want to do a thing, and their partner wants to GUILT them into it?


Yes, I am in a similar position. Currently sitting on the divorce/reconcile fence because of a 15 year sexless marriage. The love ran out last year. That's why I come off as not very loving. And IMO, trying to drag your spouse into celibacy is a guilt of her own making. I am just being true to myself. 



NobodySpecial said:


> Regardless guilt is a **** motivator. Ask any recovered Catholic or any parent who has ever tried to guilt a kid into doing something. Guilt may change a person's behavior every once in a while, but it is a crap motivator for life changes.


Yes, my wife's conservative Catholic teachings growing up were likely a contributing factor to her views on love and sex today. They did a great job making her feel guilty for being sexy or affectionate and she did the rest. They literally brainwashed and ruined her. I was completely ineffective at convincing her that I wanted to be physical because I loved her. Romance, flowers, gifts, and attention did not matter. She always thought I was using her like a sex doll or an object, which to me translated into, she doesn't believe that I love her. 

The point being that the LD spouse should feel some guilt and come to terms with it.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Phil, thanks for your reply, I think you actually get what I was talking about based on your reply. 

A handjob (standalone oral, whatever) given in a generous spirit is most certainly "shared" and shows loving consideration to boot.

I agree and was my point to begin with. Given that she is aware that I have a higher drive than she does, when I initiate and am obviously showing that I am horny, when it has been a week or two since we last had sex, coupled with the fact she made it known she didn't like me taking care of myself, I wonder why she doesn't offer to help me out-I know I would do the same if the situation was somehow reversed. I don't expect it all the time, but it would be a loving gesture every so often and it would mean a lot to me to show me she really does care-this is off the table now because I no longer initiate. My original post was more along the lines of the entire time we have been together and never saying, sorry not tonight dear but let me help you out. A loving gesture from wife to husband. 

To OP I would say, your wife probably isn't naive but probably has a ton of toxic shame related to her conditioning. That you have good sex when you manage to get away says to me this is more about her inhibitions than you lacking attractiveness, although I agree cajoling her won't help. She's always needed some external element to temporarily override her aversions, whether it's the expectations of courtship, her biological clock, or the what-happens-in-Vegas license afforded by vacations. She doesn't offer to "take care of you" because at all other times she views your desire the same way she views hers: "Ew, disgusting".

Not sure she thinks it is ew disgusting but there is something to be said for needed to be away from her norm to truly become a sexual person. I do think she is naive though because if not, she would better understand that when I tell her that sex is how I feel the close connection to her-instead of either choosing not to believe me or dismissing it-whatever the case, she might actually research on her own and come to find out I am telling her the truth. When I have tried to tell her there are actually health benefits from having more sex, she says what male doctor wrote that. It just tells me she believes all guys are horndogs and women have to keep us in line. 

She knows deep down this isn't fair to you, and while I doubt she consciously wants to be selfish, she's had years to construct a mental narrative that rationalizes and absolves her, affirmed daily by your silent acquiescence. Hearing that you're masturbating blows a big hole in that narrative, hence her reaction. 

Agreed, I think she doesn't like the idea of knowing I can take care of myself. So in a sense, she does like that "control" although I don't paint her as a control freak. I take care of myself now-she just doesn't know. I just don't care any longer about her feelings on this. I have to do what I have to do. 

I do think you need to be willing to stand up for yourself in a way that isn't sulky or passive-aggressive. Could be asserting your needs and expectations openly and calmly, could be 180, could be stopping any Nice Guy/covert contract stuff you may be doing. But ultimately you need to show willingness to pursue your own happiness and to leave the marriage if that's what it takes. She won't change without doing a lot of work on herself, and right now nothing motivates her to do that.

I have let her know MANY times over the years how I feel-she tells me she is doing the best she can-it all goes back to for better or worse in the marriage vows. She believes she is normal, she believes I am normal-guys are supposed to want sex a lot more than gals. When my kids move out, I will stop doing some of the stuff I do now-because I do what I do now as much for them and myself as for her. I do more than my fair share with household duties-laundry, cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, as well as all the outside maintenance. But I am NOT going to leave the marriage over lack of sex because despite what is often said-we have a great relationship overall-there is nothing hidden here. Just a simple fact of a woman that is busy, a man that is busy, man wants woman more than woman wants man. Since I no longer or rarely initiate, it has worked out well because I no longer have expectations. When she initiates, I know she is feeling horny or feeling guilty, but bottom line she is making the effort and I accept it. I totally agree nothing changes UNLESS she wants to change, that is why I pray everyday she will-prayer is all I have at the moment but at least I have that.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Unfortunately, religion does not encourage situational thinking in anything. It is very child like in its rigid good or bad, right or wrong perspective. It's either black or white, with little room for grey areas.


Nothing grey here:

Song of Solomon 7(ERV)

He Praises Her Beauty


7 Princess,[a] your feet are beautiful in those sandals.
The curves of your thighs are like jewelry made by an artist.

2 
Your navel is like a round cup*;
may it never be without wine.
Your belly is like a pile of wheat
surrounded by lilies.

3 
Your breasts are like twin fawns
of a young gazelle.

4 
Your neck is like an ivory tower.
Your eyes are like the pools in Heshbon
near the gate of Bath Rabbim.
Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon
that looks toward Damascus.

5 
Your head is like Carmel,
and the hair on your head is like silk.
Your long flowing hair
captures even a king.

6 
You are so beautiful and so pleasant,
a lovely, delightful young woman!

7 
You are tall—
as tall as a palm tree.
And your breasts are like
the clusters of fruit on that tree.

8 
I would love to climb that tree
and take hold of its branches.


May your breasts be like clusters of grapes
and your fragrance[c] like apples.

9 
May your mouth be like the best wine,
flowing straight to my love,
flowing gently to the sleeper’s lips.

She Speaks to Him

10 
I belong to my lover,
and he wants me.
11 
Come, my lover,
let’s go out into the field;
let’s spend the night in the villages.
12 
Let’s get up early and go to the vineyards.
Let’s see if the vines are in bloom.
Let’s see if the blossoms have opened
and if the pomegranates are in bloom.
There I will give you my love.
13 
Smell the mandrakes[d]
and all the pleasant flowers by our door.
I have saved many pleasant things for you, my lover,
pleasant things, new and old.*


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

oops


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> Unfortunately, religion does not encourage situational thinking in anything. It is very child like in its rigid good or bad, right or wrong perspective. It's either black or white, with little room for grey areas.
> 
> With that mindset being driven in virtually all aspects of life, it can be difficult to downright impossible for religiously indoctrinated people to change gears where what is wrong and will land you in hell if you do it on June 30, is acceptable, even required on July 1.


No religion that I have followed are that way. I was raised Pentecostal, and am now a Baptist. I've been to many churches of differing doctrinal teachings. Yes, promiscuity is sin, and discouraged for our unmarried youth, but if they follow Biblical teachings, sex in not sin in the context of marriage. The apostle Paul clarifies the marriage covenant in 1 Corinthians 7.

You're right in that some people get indoctrinated in specific teachings, and don't learn the Truth. It is our responsibility as Christians to actually READ the Bible, and heed what the Bible says, and to not depend solely on a man's interpretation of what it says. It is what we call growing (maturing) in our Christian walk.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Unfortunately, religion does not encourage situational thinking in anything. It is very child like in its rigid good or bad, right or wrong perspective. It's either black or white, with little room for grey areas.
> 
> With that mindset being driven in virtually all aspects of life,* it can be difficult to downright impossible for religiously indoctrinated people to change gears where what is wrong and will land you in hell if you do it on June 30, is acceptable, even required on July 1.*





UMP said:


> Nothing grey here:
> 
> Song of Solomon 7(ERV)
> 
> ...


*

You left out the part of my quote that addresses what you posted in response. What you post only applies when married...the exact opposite of what is taught about being unmarried. It is very difficult for most people to flip the switch and embrace something they have been conditioned against...sexual thoughts, feelings, actions. Yes, there might be some lip service given to being able to have sex after marriage, but that pales in comparison to the warnings against premarital sexuality.*


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sex IS different. It is one of the most intimate things.


I think a lot of men find that 'Sex IS different" is just a little too convenient, seeing how that's often the thing they want the most.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I think a lot of men find that 'Sex IS different" is just a little too convenient, seeing how that's often the thing they want the most.


You know what I think? I think a lot of men don't WANT to know effective things that they can do to engender the kind of desire in their women that they want which is why you get people repeating the same old threads over and over without a willingness to listen to people who have something different to offer.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Have you read the thread at all? I am thinking not.


I've read the entire thing. Is there some other interpretation of your various expressions of revulsion toward unreciprocated, not-in-the-mood-but-I'll-help-you-out sex?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Phil Anders said:


> I've read the entire thing. Is there some other interpretation of your various expressions of revulsion toward unreciprocated, not-in-the-mood-but-I'll-help-you-out sex?


I guess you did not understand any of my posts then. Cheers.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess you did not understand any of my posts then. Cheers.


Feel free to explain the part I highlighted, then. I don't disagree with your entire analysis, FWIW, but the revulsion really stuck out. 

Why is it so distasteful to "help out" an aroused partner--especially one who's gone 3 weeks celibate, as in the example OP posed--when you aren't currently in the same mood yourself? I don't understand why you frame that in terms of Ew, vomit, get a blowup doll, etc.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> You know what I think? I think a lot of men don't WANT to know effective things that they can do to engender the kind of desire in their women that they want which is why you get people repeating the same old threads over and over without a willingness to listen to people who have something different to offer.


Why should they? Marriage entitles them to sex and women in porn put out with men giving little to nothing. 

Now back to OP; I will say that being an arse when rejected, while somewhat understandable, always has the effect of making one even less attractive. It could be that it wouldn't matter anyway, but it doesn't help.

What one should not do is accept a nagged HJ or shut the hell up pity sex. OP, have you lovingly made clear to your wife that you can't live in a sexless marriage? And that you'll do whatever it takes to make it enjoyable for both of you? 

That's the only real hope you have. Being a jerk upon rejection or asking for a HJ to get you off won't get you what you want. 

If you had a wife who was agreeable to sex and you wanted a little extra that might work, but that's not what you're working with. 

Tell her that you'd love to give her first crack but if she's not up to it you'll take care of yourself. Period. It's completely unreasonable that she doesn't want you masturbating but is always tired.

Apologies if you've addressed my questions and I missed it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Phil Anders said:


> Feel free to explain the part I highlighted, then. I don't disagree with your entire analysis, FWIW, but the revulsion really stuck out.


There is no revulsion. Why would there be? I am nuts about my husband, in and out of bed. (Kitchen, car, golf course, laundry room....)




> Why is it so distasteful to "help out" an aroused partner--especially one who's gone 3 weeks celibate, as in the example OP posed--when you aren't currently in the same mood yourself? I don't understand why you frame that in terms of Ew, vomit, get a blowup doll, etc.


Meh. Read the thread again. It's all there.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why should they? Marriage entitles them to sex and women in porn put out with men giving little to nothing.


I don't think the vast majority of men REALLY think like this. I think the tools who do are few and far between. But they don't seem to care to get to understand what is going on inside their wives head and heart to solve the problem. It is good enough for them if she just DOES it. Which, as we know from countless examples, does not wind up working for them, leaving them thinking that their wives are just selfish *****es.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I think it doesn't help that single women dealing with single men get the impression that sex is a game where he tries to get the most women to have the most sex in the most outrageous positions/circumstances as possible. You know, we do hear you guys talking amongst yourselves about your conquests, laughing and talking trash about the females who give you what you want. It doesnt make us feel warm and fuzzy about you talking about your sexual "needs". We spend our single years trying to avoid that kind of guy and that kind of sex.
> 
> Then when women get married I don't really know why it's any surprise that they think that sex is still a game where he tries to extract the most sex he can out of his partner. For fun.
> 
> ...


As with so many things, real understanding depends on experiencing it yourself.

No amount of talking or TAM reading can ever really replace that. It's like describing a color to someone who's never seen that color before. They can accept what you're telling them, but it's just not really going to click for them.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think the vast majority of men REALLY think like this. I think the tools who do are few and far between. But they don't seem to care to get to understand what is going on inside their wives head and heart to solve the problem. It is good enough for them if she just DOES it. Which, as we know from countless examples, does not wind up working for them, leaving them thinking that their wives are just selfish *****es.


I agree...... honestly i was just being an arse.

I do that sometimes..... though I do sense that some guys aren't really open to what women have to say about it.

I agree that many times they take the attitude that their wife shouldn't me selfish and should understand what it means, but at the same time don't want starfish sex. Completely understandable. 

I think often men expect womens sexuality to be like theirs. Logically they know it isn't but it frustrates them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> There are other experiences that men have that women can never experience and may never understand completely, but we can accept that he has a need that we don't understand and try to accommodate him because we love him.
> 
> But the problem with sex is that the typical female experience is one of both understanding a particular (negative, for her) dynamic before marriage and being expected to accept that the dynamic has changed after marriage while also never having experienced this unmet need herself. The pre-marriage dynamic looks awfully self-serving of males, and awfully dangerous and disrespectful to females and not anything like "meeting male needs". Looks exactly like fun and games at our expense. How to reconcile *that* fact while also never having experienced the unmet need ourselves.


Absolutely true. Coupled with the fact that some men actually ARE like that. 

But it kind of begs the question--how far do you trust your spouse to tell you the truth, especially when what they're telling you conflicts with your preconceptions? If the answer isn't "always", you should examine why.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OP -

- You have let your marriage be this way for quite too long, so being honest I wouldn't have a lot of hope of things improving 

- You stated you would never consider divorce (or I guess rock the boat) so what motivation would there ever be to change?

- One important item that seems to have been glossed over, you mentioned when you 2 are out of the home environment she is very passionate and sex is great. Drive may not be the issue then, but she clearly has an issue separating herself from the house. That might be an area worth tackling, talk to her to get a better understanding of why she can't separate herself, find out if there are things that you can do to help out with this, etc... 

- At the end of the day you just need to sit down with her, explain to her that sex for you is more then just jacking off and it is your way of feeling connected to her (assuming it is, just speaking from my POV here). Whether right or wrong, her disinterest in sex is perceived by you as disinterest in you which can really wear down on you mentally. Give her an opportunity to open up and discuss what she is thinking. You can't force her to want to have more sex, she needs to make that decision on her own. Whatever issues there are, I can guarantee you it is on both you and her, so you need to make it clear this is something you two need to work on together, and not make it a finger pointing exercise. If she decides it just isn't important enough to work on, to me that would speak volumes, but then again, since you aren't willing to rock the boat, I don't know what that would accomplish.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The OP has no intention of divorcing his wife. He wishes she were HD but he isn't going to talk to her about it. He's talked before but obviously she didn't get the message.

Since you both tolerate the roommate situation how about making it official and move into another bedroom? Tell the kids your back/leg whatever is acting up. She doesn't want to honor the vows of marriage so she can go without the appearances and perks of a marriage.

At this point you have little hope of improvement with the kids there or not. The ball is in her court so tell her she's the one who is going to be running around chasing it.

P.S. Don't be satisfying her if she won't return the favor. I'd let her go until she's so horny she's straddling the washing machine.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

If she hasn't done it in 25 yrs, she's not going to do it.

Your best bet, given the info you have provided, is to work on accepting it.

Maybe at some point in your life you fantasized about playing professional baseball or being an astronaut. 

You can probably think of a few things that you really, really wanted in life, but which never worked out. 

This is like that.

There are upsides to this. If you're in the habit of doing things simply to try to make this happen or to keep the possibility alive, you can drop all of that.

Be honest with yourself about what your motivations are. 

Her honesty about this allows you to free yourself from jumping through hoops.

She's honestly not interested in some things. Maybe you're honestly not interested in some things too. 

You're free to be honest with yourself and her.

If you can get to this place, you may find that this has more value than the grudging HJ you've been hoping for.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Well that doesn't really work for me. So what you're saying is that when his wife says she's "too tired" for sex, he should always believe her. Humans try to influence each other to get what they want, even in healthy, loving relationships. We might think we need something but we really only want it; this is often the case. She may *want* sleep and claim she needs it. She may think he feels he "needs" sex but she's sure he only "wants" it.


What I'm saying is that if you don't trust what your spouse is telling you, sometimes it means it's them and sometimes it's that you haven't created a safe space for them to be honest. Figuring out which is which can go along way.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Absolutely true. Coupled with the fact that some men actually ARE like that.
> 
> But it kind of begs the question--how far do you trust your spouse to tell you the truth, especially when what they're telling you conflicts with your preconceptions? If the answer isn't "always", you should examine why.


My husband started in much the same way the OP did. When I objected to masturbation, he lied and hid. He did it for two reasons, he later admitted. One was self preservation, my not getting hurt and mad AT him. But the other was not hurting me. 

Then he finally decided, hey wait this is who I am. If that is not ok, I don't want to spend the rest of my life hiding and lying. I do this. I have always done this. I am not Catholic, and I do not share your concerns about it. Yes, I am attracted to other women. Yes I look at them to aid in the plumbing activities. I have chosen you OVER them, but that does not mean I am changing everything about myself. I don't remember change all your habits to suit your wife in our wedding vows. That was tough to hear. But WAY better than the alternative, not hearing. 

We did go on to have very honest conversations about where our ideas and opinions differed. Very educational. Oh, usenet was around at the time. Doug Anderson, if you are out there, you helped me understand too.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> *I think it doesn't help that single women dealing with single men get the impression that sex is a game where he tries to get the most women to have the most sex in the most outrageous positions/circumstances as possible. You know, we do hear you guys talking amongst yourselves about your conquests, laughing and talking trash about the females who give you what you want.* It doesnt make us feel warm and fuzzy about you talking about your sexual "needs". We spend our single years trying to avoid that kind of guy and that kind of sex.
> 
> Then when women get married I don't really know why it's any surprise that they think that sex is still a game where he tries to extract the most sex he can out of his partner. For fun.
> 
> ...


On a few occasions, I have overheard women talking about men, and some of the things I've heard are a lot of times more damning and explicit that what I've experienced being around men. So, that can be a two-way street. I was appalled and shocked at some of the things I've overheard women say.

I get the gist of what you're saying, though.:grin2:


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Yeah, there may be some women like that. Mostly it's an act women put on for their friends though, when they're talking like that and it's a minority of women. This behaviour is pretty common among young, single men.


It's an act put on for the men's friends 99% of the time, also. I can't speak to how common it is for young single men other than to say that I knew one or two that did it and didn't associate with them much.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Yeah, there may be some women like that. Mostly it's an act women put on for their friends though, when they're talking like that and it's a minority of women. This behaviour is pretty common among young, single men.


Not sure I agree (or I have been hanging around the wrong guys my whole life lol). I think it is less then you think with guys, and similar to what you said above with women, I know guys who do talk this way simply to put on an act for their friends as well.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Ellis-

The sit down part has happened in the past, many times, she says she is doing the best she can and apologized-so the ball is in my court-I am not divorcing the one I love because of lack of sex. I don't initiate any longer and that has taken a lot of my stress/anxiety away. My original post was after reading women say they will help their men out when on their period or when they can't have sex for whatever reason-I thought, wow, my wife has NEVER made that offer in 25 years, it got me wondering if that is more selfish or naive to not even think to offer-but then it turned into much more, so that is all I have to say-that summarizes all I have said for the most part!!


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Anon, you are spot on, which I have said as much in other posts. I guess I probably should not have posted in the first place-I was trying to ask a question when I pretty much already knew the answer.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Ellis-
> 
> The sit down part has happened in the past, many times, s*he says she is doing the best she can* and apologized-so the ball is in my court-I am not divorcing the one I love because of lack of sex. I don't initiate any longer and that has taken a lot of my stress/anxiety away. My original post was after reading women say they will help their men out when on their period or when they can't have sex for whatever reason-I thought, wow, my wife has NEVER made that offer in 25 years, it got me wondering if that is more selfish or naive to not even think to offer-but then it turned into much more, so that is all I have to say-that summarizes all I have said for the most part!!


In what way is she doing the best she can? Can you identify that? Can she?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Maybe so, but how do you explain the writing of girls names and numbers on bathroom walls, (in the good old days!) the taking advantage of drunk females and videoing the experience and then posting on social media. Stuff like this happens a lot. I'm not saying the majority of men do this, but when have you ever heard of a woman doing it?


Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think it is very easy to take some guys acting like this (even though many I bet were done purely for show) and extrapolate it to a majority of guys.

As far as women, I think part of it, it is still not really "acceptable" for a women to act this way in public, so there is less incentive for women to do this publicly (where some guys know if they do this they will get cheers and hi 5s).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

PAPS18 said:


> Ellis-
> 
> The sit down part has happened in the past, many times, *she says she is doing the best she can and apologized-so the ball is in my court-*I am not divorcing the one I love because of lack of sex. I don't initiate any longer and that has taken a lot of my stress/anxiety away. My original post was after reading women say they will help their men out when on their period or when they can't have sex for whatever reason-I thought, wow, my wife has NEVER made that offer in 25 years, it got me wondering if that is more selfish or naive to not even think to offer-but then it turned into much more, so that is all I have to say-that summarizes all I have said for the most part!!


Following up with Fozzy, can you expand on the bolded. If she is doing the best, has there been any improvement? How is doing the best turn into the ball being in your court


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Maybe so, but how do you explain the writing of girls names and numbers on bathroom walls, (in the good old days!) the taking advantage of drunk females and videoing the experience and then posting on social media. Stuff like this happens a lot. I'm not saying the majority of men do this, but when have you ever heard of a woman doing it?


Name and number on bathroom walls--I've only seen this on Happy Days. And I've been in MANY men's restrooms.

Posting videos of taking advantage of drunk females to social media is illegal, and I'd say still uncommon enough that it's newsworthy when it happens. Have I ever heard of a woman doing it? No, i have not.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Also the posting of explicit photos after a break-up and on and on. The good guys should really put a stop to this stuff because it's only going to hurt the male species as a whole after marriage...!


Hey, I am one of the good guys and I am doing my part, been collecting all these pictures as evidence to use down the road ... >


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Anyhow, I just thought I would get your take. I am not divorcing my wife and I am not talking to her about this-been there too many times and I have grown to accept what I have is what I have, maybe just need to get opinions


1) If divorce if OFF the table then you will NEVER fix this situation. Do you want to FIX this or just complain. If you want to make a lot of noise and get nothing done, join a protest.

2) I think you are a beta doormat who needs to assert his manhood. You need to explain to your wife you have "needs" and if she will not fulfill these needs you will find someone who will.

3) You wife is a selfish turd. Don't want to have sex? Fine. Pretended to be into blowjobs so you'd slap a ring on it? Fine. Too lazy to give you a fvcking handjob AND you're not allowed to masturbate? 

Common dude wtf are you doing?


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

No improvement, ball is in my court because she has told me this is me-this is what I am about. So ball is in my court to accept it (which I have) or leave. Now, if I made a threat to leave-who knows, maybe she would change but I seriously doubt it. AND, I am not going to make a threat that I am not prepared to follow through with.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Even if it's just a minority of guys, it's a vocal minority and the majority does nothing to shut them down, so it seems (to women) like it's accepted and encouraged amongst too many young single males. And quite frankly, it's scary.
> 
> Just trying to give you guys some *insight into the female psycho* around this issue.


I completely agree, but I think you can apply this to many areas where unfortunately the vocal minority seems to get the spotlight over everyone else (whether it be sex, race, etc...).

The bolded in your statement does scare me a little though  .


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Betrayed, yep, I am an idiot I guess-but complain is all I got. I love the mother of my children, our relationship is based on a lot more than sex, and 25 years is a long time to toss away for this-and my kids are still in the house-so even if I did want out, I would be screwed-and not in a good way. BUT, I am not leaving and I thank you for your comments.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> No improvement, ball is in my court because she has told me this is me-this is what I am about. So ball is in my court to accept it (which I have) or leave. Now, if I made a threat to leave-who knows, maybe she would change but I seriously doubt it. AND, I am not going to make a threat that I am not prepared to follow through with.


I'm not you, but if it were me and I decided to stay, I would put precisely as much effort into fulfilling her needs as she does into yours. And if she found a problem with that, I'd tell her "sorry, but this is who I am".


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Anon, you are spot on, which I have said as much in other posts. I guess I probably should not have posted in the first place-I was trying to ask a question when I pretty much already knew the answer.


to address the original question though (and I think you already understand this)--

it's neither naïve nor selfish.

it's simply uninterested.

it's like turning down a piece of cake when you're not hungry.

that's how she sees it, so to call it naïve is wrong (she knows she's not hungry) and to call it selfish is wrong (she's not saying "no" to withhold from you; she's saying no because she's not hungry).

on the flipside, you _are_ hungry. that's a problem. 

but she is not making you be hungry. if it was up to her, she'd prefer that you weren't hungry. she's not going to eat the cake just because you're hungry though. to her, that is kind of a ridiculous idea.

in a way, it is.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

PAPS18 said:


> No improvement, ball is in my court because she has told me this is me-this is what I am about. So ball is in my court to accept it (which I have) or leave. Now, if I made a threat to leave-who knows, maybe she would change but I seriously doubt it. AND, I am not going to make a threat that I am not prepared to follow through with.


So basically she doesn't care to work with you on this issue, it is all you (blame shifting). Nothing about that sounds like a loving marriage (no disrespect). I understand that sex has a different priority for you vs her, but not willing to work on the issue, find some middle ground, IDK, that would not leave me feeling good about my marriage.

Not saying you have to leave her, but I would definitely start to pull away from her. If she is looking for something more, sounds like it would be her problem, ball would be in her court, right?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> - At the end of the day you just need to sit down with her, explain to her that sex for you is more then just jacking off and it is your way of feeling connected to her (assuming it is, just speaking from my POV here). Whether right or wrong, her disinterest in sex is perceived by you as disinterest in you which can really wear down on you mentally. Give her an opportunity to open up and discuss what she is thinking. You can't force her to want to have more sex, she needs to make that decision on her own. Whatever issues there are, I can guarantee you it is on both you and her, so you need to make it clear this is something you two need to work on together, and not make it a finger pointing exercise.* If she decides it just isn't important enough to work on, to me that would speak volumes,* but then again, since you aren't willing to rock the boat, I don't know what that would accomplish.


Put everything else aside. The bolded is all that matters.

If you make it clear (and I mean very, very clear) that you unhappy with an aspect of your marriage and your spouse just can't work up the enthusiasm to work on it with you........


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Maybe so, but how do you explain the writing of girls names and numbers on bathroom walls, (in the good old days!) the taking advantage of drunk females and videoing the experience and then posting on social media. Stuff like this happens a lot. I'm not saying the majority of men do this, but when have you ever heard of a woman doing it?


Not saying this writing of names and numbers doesn't happen at all. But to the extent I've paid attention to that sort of thing over the years which is not a lot, it seems to me there are far more dude names on the wall than women once you got out of high school. In other words either it is a gay culture practice or a gay harassment (kinda hard to tell which) thing. 

Taking advantage of drunk females is just abhorrent. Although I did have a girl friend one time that was a trip when she drank, seemed OK at the time since we were a long time item.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> to address the original question though (and I think you already understand this)--
> 
> it's neither naïve nor selfish.
> 
> ...


In most situations, you'd be right. However in this situation I'm tilting toward selfish. He's not allowed to have cake with her, but she's also telling him he can't make himself a sandwich.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Put everything else aside. The bolded is all that matters.
> 
> If you make it clear (and I mean very, very clear) that you unhappy with an aspect of your marriage and your spouse just can't work up the enthusiasm to work on it with you........


I'm sure this sounds lame, but I don't even understand what it would mean to work on something like this.

If you don't like the taste of broccoli, can you work on liking it?

She just doesn't want to do what OP wants. She's never done it.

Can you get mad at someone for actually, honestly not liking something?

I mean, I know you can (I've been there), but does it really make sense?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Betrayed, yep, I am an idiot I guess-but complain is all I got. I love the mother of my children, our relationship is based on a lot more than sex, and 25 years is a long time to toss away for this-and my kids are still in the house-so even if I did want out, I would be screwed-and not in a good way. BUT, I am not leaving and I thank you for your comments.


Then enjoy your sexless marriage. You refuse to do any heavy lifting to fix it. And I'm sorry you give her far more love than she gives you.

If you cared about you as much, she'd wouldn't be so damn ignorant about your needs. Your self esteem is in the gutter. Codependent on a shrew of a wife.

To answer your question, she is *SELFISH.*

Good Luck.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> In most situations, you'd be right. However in this situation I'm tilting toward selfish. He's not allowed to have cake with her, but she's also telling him he can't make himself a sandwich.


yeah, that's weird. I'd totally ignore that noise.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think it is very easy to take some guys acting like this (even though many I bet were done purely for show) and extrapolate it to a majority of guys.
> 
> As far as women, I think part of it, it is still not really "acceptable" for a women to act this way in public, so there is less incentive for women to do this publicly (where some guys know if they do this they will get cheers and hi 5s).


It makes as much sense for women to blame all men for stuff like this as it does for men to blame all women for riding the c0ck carrousel in their youth and then looking to settle down with beta bucks.


----------



## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> I don't initiate any longer


What the ??? I can't believe that you think that this is a good idea. Not to mention that if you don't, someone else will. Just read all of these "my husband doesn't initiate" threads that make women feel undesirable.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Capster said:


> What the ??? I can't believe that you think that this is a good idea. Not to mention that if you don't, someone else will. Just read all of these "my husband doesn't initiate" threads that make women feel undesirable.


I don't know. It's kind of like expecting a man to keep putting his hand on a stove burner over and over, because once in a while it doesn't burn him.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I've been told I'm a trip when I drink too...but I've never be taken advantage of when I've been drinking. You're right, it's abhorrent. But it happens a lot.


When I drink too much I get chill and eat tostitos, so really no incentive for anyone to try and take advantage of me, unless they want my tostitos lol.

I also enjoyed running Forrest Gump style since I couldn't feel my legs. 

Yes, my W does frequently shake her head at me, but that is what makes me so lovable 

The drinking issue is a tough one. One person who takes advantage of another who is drunk, that is absolutely abhorrent and there should be no tolerance for, there is nothing honorable about that. What happens though when both are drunk?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I'm saying that I think women don't understand sex as a male "need" rather than a "want"


You're right but for the wrong reasons.



OliviaG said:


> because of the dating culture that we grow up in. And because they've never had to go without.


Men on the whole biologically are wired more to have physical needs met. Like women on the whole are biologically wired to seek emotional fulfillment from their spouses. 

Not to say either gender can't be the other but there's a reason the billion dollar porn and sex industry almost exclusively caters to MEN not females.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I don't know. It's kind of like expecting a man to keep putting his hand on a stove burner over and over, because once in a while it doesn't burn him.


Well, SOMEBODY has got to be the man in the relationship.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm sure this sounds lame, but I don't even understand what it would mean to work on something like this.
> 
> If you don't like the taste of broccoli, can you work on liking it?
> 
> ...


If she likes sex when it happens, she could work on giving herself an opportunity to like it (knowing that she'll probably enjoy it once she gets started).

If she doesn't like sex, she could work on trying to like it (if by wife wanted to try ballroom dancing; I wouldn't be excited, but I'd give it a try with a positive attitude).

If two people are allowed to just say "nah... don't care for that..", then I don't know how you're supposed to have a worth while relationship.

Welcome back, I'm gong to assume that things haven't improved.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Capster said:


> What the ??? I can't believe that you think that this is a good idea. Not to mention that if you don't, someone else will. Just read all of these "my husband doesn't initiate" threads that make women feel undesirable.


She doesn't want to sleep with him so why should he? Am I missing the reason why he should just keep getting rejected? She doesn't feel desirable? What about this poor bastard who can't get laid by his own wife?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Capster said:


> Well, SOMEBODY has got to be the man in the relationship.


Tell that to Caitlyn ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I'm not saying that women blame men. I'm saying that I think women don't understand sex as a male "need" rather than a "want" because of the dating culture that we grow up in. *And because they've never had to go without*. The two together = a vast gulf of misunderstanding.


This is the key.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Capster said:


> Well, SOMEBODY has got to be the man in the relationship.


I think manning up in a relationship like that involves packing your bag.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> I once told her I had masturbated at times during a fight we had about sex-she was PISSED off and said it really bothered her that I would do that behind her back...


You've got your answer right here. Initiate hard tonight. Make her feel desirable. If she refuses, whip it out and start MB in front of her. Sounds like she doesn't want you to do it behind her back. Funny thing, I just did this a few weeks ago for the first time with my wife of 25+ years. She slapped my hand away within one second and started doing it herself.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Can some one who sympathizes with the wife please explain to me why she can't give this handy at least?!?

If she doesn't want to experience pleasure, fine. But why can't she move her hand up and down for 5 mins?!?

Is she THAT lazy?!? Do it FOR YOUR MARRIAGE! I mean is this REALLY such a chore?!? Anyone?!?


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I think manning up in a relationship like that involves packing your bag.


If a woman packs her bags because a husband wants to have sex and initiates with her, then there's no use in having this thread in the first place.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Vega said:


> But there's nothing in biology that says that a man MUST have an orgasm


Yes there is.... It's called wet dreams.

If they don't orgasm the body will evacuate the excess semen. 

It needs to be released on a regular basis.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Can some one who sympathizes with the wife please explain to me why she can't give this handy at least?!?
> 
> If she doesn't want to experience pleasure, fine. But why can't she move her hand up and down for 5 mins?!?
> 
> Is she THAT lazy?!? Do it FOR YOUR MARRIAGE! I mean is this REALLY such a chore?!? Anyone?!?


Because he doesn't initiate. She told him 9 years ago that sex isn't important, and he went along with it. Sorry PAPS - this has only served to squash her desire for you even more.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Capster said:


> Because he doesn't initiate. She told him 9 years ago that sex isn't important, and he went along with it. Sorry PAPS - this has only served to squash her desire for you even more.


I agree with you.

He should just whip it out and MB in front of her.

Maybe she'll get the hint.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Can some one who sympathizes with the wife please explain to me why she can't give this handy at least?!?
> 
> If she doesn't want to experience pleasure, fine. But why can't she move her hand up and down for 5 mins?!?
> 
> Is she THAT lazy?!? Do it FOR YOUR MARRIAGE! I mean is this REALLY such a chore?!? Anyone?!?


I'll take a stab.

She's not interested, it doesn't turn her on at all and it actually makes her feel disgusted to even think about doing this.

Should she feel this way? I guess that's up for debate.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine a dude said the same thing to you. It's just your hand-- just 5 minutes-- no big deal.

Well, it probably would be a big deal to you.

I know, I know-- she's his wife-- it should be totally not a big deal. But it is to her.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I think manning up in a relationship like that involves packing your bag.


The foolish OP will not put divorce on the table so why would she respect him enough to met his needs?

She has nothing to lose by standing her ground. Only OP gets screwed on this deal. Pun intended.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

anon1111 said:


> i'll take a stab.
> 
> She's not interested *in him*, it doesn't turn her on at all and it actually makes her feel disgusted to even think about doing this *for him*.
> 
> ...


ftfy


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I'll take a stab.
> 
> She's not interested, it doesn't turn her on at all and it actually makes her feel disgusted to even think about doing this.
> 
> ...


A better analogy would be if a woman said that to me. 

And if it were my SPOUSE I'd probably say, "That's seems reasonable, why not?"


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> You misunderstood me. I meant that women don't understand for those reasons, not that men have their needs because of the culture we grow up in. I agree; sex drive is biological.


Okay gotcha now. My bad.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> A better analogy would be if a woman said that to me.
> 
> And if it were my SPOUSE I'd probably say, "That's seems reasonable, why not?"


what if the woman (even if it was your wife) was 500 lbs.?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> No improvement, ball is in my court because she has told me this is me-this is what I am about. So ball is in my court to accept it (which I have) or leave. Now, if I made a threat to leave-who knows, maybe she would change but I seriously doubt it. AND, I am not going to make a threat that I am not prepared to follow through with.


Your wife has a very repressed idea about sex. She hasn't got a clue! She will never be any different because her knowledge base isn't growing.

You have two teenagers... Who is talking to them about sex and what is the message they're getting! Are you raising a daughter who will be just as sexually inhibited and ignorant as her mother? How about your teenaged son? Does he know how to turn a woman on, where to touch and to touch so that her passions build rather than become irritated? Who is teaching your children about sex? If it is their mother, it's time you took over because their mother is clueless. 

This is how you approach educating your wife, by talking about how to best educate your children, by discussing what messages they should be getting, by opening the dialogue for your kids to discuss sex, you and your wife will HAVE to discuss sex.

Does your wife think your sons perpetual erections are normal for a male his age? Does your wife think your son should be educated about masturbation? How often should a male his age masturbate? Is it important for him not to rush himself while he masturbates? Does your son know how to tell if a girl wants to be kissed? Does he know about affirmative consent? Does he understand that affirmative consent includes the capacity to consent, IOW, too drunk to drive, too drunk to consent. 

Does your daughter know all the names of her lady bits? Does she know that the down there is a lot more than vagina? Does she know where her clitoris is? Does she know that it's okay to masturbate, healthy even? Does she understand that her vaginal discharge varies through out the month and her vagina lubricates when she is sexually aroused? Does she know that it's normal for young women to have a difficult time reaching orgasm with solo play and even more difficult with partnered play? Does she know not to ever ever fake an orgasm no matter what? Does she know that it's perfectly normal to not have orgasms at all until she is in her late teens early 20's?

This is the kind of education we NEED to be teaching our kids. It covers a LOT more than penis in vain makes baby so don't do it...oh and she bleeds every month.

So start talking with your wife about how you want your kids to be sexually educated and that will, by neccisity, facilitate your wife's abysmal understanding of sexuality.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Your wife has a very repressed idea about sex. She hasn't got a clue! She will never be any different because her knowledge base isn't growing.
> 
> You have two teenagers... Who is talking to them about sex and what is the message they're getting! Are you raising a daughter who will be just as sexually inhibited and ignorant as her mother? How about your teenaged son? Does he know how to turn a woman on, where to touch and to touch so that her passions build rather than become irritated? Who is teaching your children about sex? If it is their mother, it's time you took over because their mother is clueless.
> 
> ...


OMG. You are a ****ing rock star.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> what if the woman (even if it was your wife) was 500 lbs.?


Stop putting experiments in my thoughts!


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Yes there is.... It's called wet dreams.
> 
> If they don't orgasm the body will evacuate the excess semen.
> 
> It needs to be released on a regular basis.


Sorry BD. I hit "post" before I finished my sentence and my thought. I just now realized that I posted instead of hitting "preview post". 

I have more to write, but to finish the sentence, I meant to write, "There's nothing in biology that says that a man must have an orgasm WITH someone. He can either handle matters himself or have wet dreams. Either way, biologically, he doesn't "need" a partner to "help" him."

Zat better?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

nobodyspecial said:


> omg. You are a ****ing rock star.




View attachment 44265


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Frankly, and I don't say this lightly, your wife exhibits a lot of the traits of someone who is ripe to have (or has had) an affair. She likes sex - didn't you say she has orgasms that leave her shaking? She used to give you BJ's, and now doesn't. Told you 9 years ago to stop wanting sex, and you obliged. I've seen this movie 1000's of times before. It is in your best interests to try to rekindle the fire. You can search the net for topics involving women who do things with their affair partners that they won't do with their husbands because they are not in to their spouses.

Anon Pink may be right, that she has a totally repressed sexual attitude. But since she likes sex and used to give you BJ's, I think she's just not in to you any more.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Also the posting of explicit photos after a break-up and on and on. The good guys should really put a stop to this stuff because it's only going to hurt the male species as a whole after marriage...!


A lot of the women that find sex with their partners undesirable / revolting / insert word here are not going to be swayed by the infantile behavior of a few vs the whole.

Sex (and the desire to have or not have) involves lots of lower brain - near instinctive - behaviors that are not easy to mitigate if things go wrong. By comparison, the emotional aspects of the relationship can be worked out in an effective manner in most cases.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Capster said:


> Frankly, and I don't say this lightly, your wife exhibits a lot of the traits of someone who is ripe to have (or has had) an affair. She likes sex - didn't you say she has orgasms that leave her shaking? She used to give you BJ's, and now doesn't. Told you 9 years ago to stop wanting sex, and you obliged.


This is fair.

VERY very few women dislike sex. They simply dislike sex WITH THEIR CURRENT PARTNERS. Huge difference. Many men are too proud to admit it's them. 

I disagree wholeheartedly however with your methods to fix this. Trying to pursue her will simply repulse her more. You want to get her panties wet fast. OP?!? Drop her like a hot potato. 

Its counterintuitive but it's the absolute truth. It will demonstrate to her you have value and more importantly OPTIONS. Women want a prize not a doormat. And if that doesn't work then frankly she was too far gone away and it was better you moved on.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> This is fair.
> 
> VERY very few women dislike sex. They simply dislike sex WITH THEIR CURRENT PARTNERS. Huge difference. Many men are too proud to admit it's them.
> 
> ...





BetrayedDad said:


> This is fair.
> 
> VERY very few women dislike sex. They simply dislike sex WITH THEIR CURRENT PARTNERS. Huge difference. Many men are too proud to admit it's them.
> 
> ...


He has to establish that he's a man with needs first. Dropping her now, after not having even initiated in FIVE years, is putting the cart before the horse. Yes, he must be willing to show that he can leave and have options. With him being a beta right now, I doubt she'd get her panties wet at the fear of him leaving. Yet.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> This is fair.
> 
> VERY very few women dislike sex. They simply dislike sex WITH THEIR CURRENT PARTNERS. Huge difference. Many men are too proud to admit it's them.
> 
> I disagree wholeheartedly however with your methods to fix this. Trying to pursue her will simply repulse her more. You want to get her panties wet fast. OP?!? Drop her like a hot potato.


Sigh.

If her desirability overall is pretty good, and/or she stands to win big in a divorce, drop her and she's gone. 

You're oversimplifying a very complex set of root causes. Yea, the drop her method works in some cases, but extrapolating to the general case does not work.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Honestly, if I were your wife, I would avoid anything sexual with you like the plague. You approach her like she is has to do one more chore for you. That is not just unattractive, it is repulsive. Furthermore, you won't divorce her. What would her impetus be to do anything different?


Holy schmoley! Cut the guy some slack!

He is talking to *us* about his issues. I am confident that he has not gone into this much detail with her. 

He sounds like a decent guy....with a LD wife...this is a common thread here.

And I do not have an answer for him, other than to "Embrace the Suck". Not that he will ever get the lady sucker fish to take the bait.

Not using the lures in his fishing box and not from the barren backyard blow-up pool.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh dear god does it ALWAYS have to be cheating if she doesn't want sex?

Sure, she could have an active masturbatory life. She might also ..just....not....want....sex!

Women sexuality is different than men, generally speaking. If she experiences sexual desire in RESPONSE and there is nothing to PROMPTED her response, she...won't...desire!


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> This is fair.
> 
> Drop her like a hot potato.
> 
> It will demonstrate to her you have value and more importantly OPTIONS.


I disagree. It will demonstrate to her that he values SEX more than he values HER.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
the whole divorce suggestion misses a lot of the point. 

I, like many HDs could tell my wife, "sorry, I don't want to put up with our limit sex life anymore, I want a divorce". Then I (or they) would have little trouble finding a woman who would enjoy an active sex life. There are lots of women who would be happy to be with a man who treated them well, who loved them, valued them, supported them, and who was a generous lover in bed. If finding someone to marry to have lots of sex were the only goal, it would be easy. 


The thing is that sex may be necessary for happiness, but it isn't the ONLY thing necessary. There is a great deal more to a relationship, more to love than sex. Many of these HD/LD relationships are very good in other ways and the HDs don't want to abandon all that. 

(same as above reversing the genders)


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## sscygni (Apr 13, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> I think LD people think that sex is a fun thing, like a vacation or eating dessert or something like that. We all would like more, but we don't *need* more of those. Having more than we need is being self-indulgent (they think).


Wow. This sums it up about perfectly. My wife has essentially told me exactly this. She truly enjoys sex when we have it, but to her it is self-indulgent to have it "too often" and what constitutes "too often" is entirely her decision.


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## sscygni (Apr 13, 2016)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm sure this sounds lame, but I don't even understand what it would mean to work on something like this.
> 
> If you don't like the taste of broccoli, can you work on liking it?
> 
> ...


Marriage is supposed to be about compromise. If one partner is unhappy with ah aspect of the relationship, both parties should want to work to find a solution, a middle ground. It sounds like in this case, his wife's middle ground is no compromise at all. This is the root of the problem - she knows very well that it is an issue for him, and does not seem motivated to work towards a solution. Selfish.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh dear god does it ALWAYS have to be cheating if she doesn't want sex?
> 
> Sure, she could have an active masturbatory life. She might also ..just....not....want....sex!
> 
> Women sexuality is different than men, generally speaking. If she experiences sexual desire in RESPONSE and there is nothing to PROMPTED her response, she...won't...desire!


The comment was meant as an observation that the situation is ripe for an affair. Her lack of desire is not because of an affair, but the fact that she does enjoy sex AND the OP has not initiated in 5 years (and is quite proud of that fact) increases the chance considerably. 

Back in my adulterous days, this would be the perfect situation to swoop in and make her feel wanted sexually again. Easy pickings.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

NobodySpecial said:


> And you would want that? I mean, why not get a blow up doll? My stomach turns when I read your outlook on sex. Sex is SHARED. If you just want an external body, why not ask her how she feels about you seeing prostitutes. Then she does not have to bother.
> 
> 
> If that is how my husband viewed sex, I would be more likely to throw up on him, if you want to know the truth.


I think you're missing the point of what he actually wants from his wife - just as his wife is missing the point, as well.

What he wants, in reality, is not solely sex. He wants a partner who shows an interest in taking care of his needs. These ones happen to be sexual.

Men, as we should know by now, typically give AND receive love through sex.

And this is the cyclical problem some of us wind up in during our lives. "All you want is sex. All you think about is sex. You only want me for sex." etc. Men have been pegged as sexaholics, with only one thing on the brain. Women somehow decide they're being used (by husbands, no less) for this one thing. When in reality, this is the basest and most true form of how most of us communicate our love to AND from our partners.

At some point in human history, sex became a "thing". A thing to be studied ad nauseum, explained, categorized, and divided. And for many, it became a bad thing. Blame religion, blame Kinsey, blame Gloria Steinem, blame the government and yes, blame men. Sex has become overly complicated, and has changed drastically for both genders over the last 100 years or so. To the point where men are animals for wanting it, and women are perceived negatively for doing the same.

Furthermore, we are given conflicting messages as we grow up, regardless of our background. While young, we are told this is something two people who are in love do. A few years later, we are preached abstinence and warned about pregnancy and STD's and reputations.

I, for one, want sex with my wife - not for the sake of having sex or having an orgasm - but this is how I give and receive love and intimacy, more than any other method. Very few men (husbands especially) have any interest in using their spouse solely for sexual purposes.

Rather, I want my wife to share with me the thing that I, a man, respond to the best in regards to giving and receiving my love and intimacy. I fully understand that this is not how my wife (nor most women) choose to primarily give and receive love and intimacy.

My wifes primary method of achieving this for HER is through other means, such as thoughtfulness, listening, holding her hand, cuddling. Things that, generally speaking, men are less inclined to receive the same level of positive feedback from. That's not to say we don't get anything, at all, from those sorts of things. Nor is it to say that my wife gets nothing at all from sex with me. We simply receive varying degrees of what we need from each activity.

The main issue revolves around when one party, regardless of the activity or means of achieving said goals, is somehow vilified for their personal preference of how they give and receive love and intimacy.

All too often it revolves around sex, and all too often, it's the man. Sex has become something bad, something complicated, and often, shameful, and worse - something people have been vilified for wanting.

For OP (and myself, and many other men here) we want to be recognized as the sexual beings that we inherently are. This is not to say we're pigs, perverts or boors. This is how we men give and receive love and intimacy with the partners we love. It has nothing to do with dominance, man vs. woman, even libido. It has nothing to do with "using" you. Quite the opposite. Yet so many women have fallen into this trap.

And yes, providing a "service" for your partner is part of this. If my wife were to give me an HJ or a BJ, I would think that's a hugely thoughtful gesture on her part. It shows that she's thinking of me and my needs. The fact that she doesn't, irks me (as it does the OP). For me, it's not that I don't get HJ's or BJ's that upsets me. It's that my wife could care less about those things, in regards to my needs or desires.

Years and years ago, my ex wife unequivocally told me that I never hold her hand, unless she grabs it first. I thought it was silly at the time. So? I'll hold your hand when you grab it, I thought. But that wasn't her point. Her point, clearly, was that I didn't THINK to hold her hand - which is exactly what makes one feel good. That I thought to do something like that. She didn't have to ask, or simply grab my hand. It's the gesture of being thought about that's key, not necessarily the act itself.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Capster said:


> The comment was meant as an observation that the situation is ripe for an affair. Her lack of desire is not because of an affair, but the fact that she does enjoy sex AND the OP has not initiated in 5 years (and is quite proud of that fact) increases the chance considerably.
> 
> Back in my adulterous days, this would be the perfect situation to swoop in and make her feel wanted sexually again. Easy pickings.



I see your point and tentatively agree. 

Not initiating only ensures you're not going to have sex. 

My husband also did that because I didn't want sex, back in our sexless marriage days. I can't say I blame him specifically. Who would want to face rejection 99% of the overtures? This coupled with the widening gulf between us caused by my emotional detachment and his emotional constipation has had our marriage hanging by a thread for many years now. I suppose it could have made me vulnerable to having an affair but like OP's wife, my understanding of sexuality and my sexual inhibition made an affair a HIGHLY unlikely scenario.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Bravo Alexm, I finally feel like someone understands my original post. Honestly, I am tapped out from this post now. I thank you all for the replies-if you were critical of me, the fact you took the time to respond is great and I do appreciate all feedback-even if I don't agree. My marriage is not perfect, I suspect few ever are. I will state that I am a happy man and a proud man-proud of my wife and children and the life we have together. I think I come across here as weak and heck, in some eyes I probably am because I refuse to blow up a good thing over me getting what I want, when I want it. There are so many posts I have read this morning that I would like to respond/clarify but honestly, I am just tired of it all. I just felt the need to respond to Alexm because he maybe explained my original post much better than I did. I will stick to just adding a response here and there on this board and not start posts again. 

One last thing-and I again credit Alexm for this because I believe this is something I need to work on and perhaps this could help my wife, sometimes it is the smallest of gestures that mean so much to an individual-


Years and years ago, my ex wife unequivocally told me that I never hold her hand, unless she grabs it first. I thought it was silly at the time. So? I'll hold your hand when you grab it, I thought. But that wasn't her point. Her point, clearly, was that I didn't THINK to hold her hand - which is exactly what makes one feel good. That I thought to do something like that. She didn't have to ask, or simply grab my hand. It's the gesture of being thought about that's key, not necessarily the act itself.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

alexm said:


> I think you're missing the point of what he actually wants from his wife - just as his wife is missing the point, as well.
> 
> What he wants, in reality, is not solely sex. He wants a partner who shows an interest in taking care of his needs. These ones happen to be sexual.


No, actually *I* totally get that. SHE doesn't. He wants a solution without a window into HER vision of what is going on. Never saw a solution that did not come from understanding a root cause. What can he DO to wake her up to HIS vision. Talking about it is not working. Will never work.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

alexm said:


> At some point in human history, sex became a "thing". A thing to be studied ad nauseum, explained, categorized, and divided.


To be fair, historically sex has always been a "thing". A thing to buy a woman from her father for. A thing to take. This **** is not made up. The fact that there are really good men who want loving relationships with their wives that include sex does not change that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> No, actually *I* totally get that. SHE doesn't. He wants a solution without a window into HER vision of what is going on. Never saw a solution that did not come from understanding a root cause. What can he DO to wake her up to HIS vision. Talking about it is not working. Will never work.


I've been advocating root cause analysis forever on TAM. Few takers. Always easier to suggest one read the books, 180...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> I've been advocating root cause analysis forever on TAM. Few takers. Always easier to suggest one read the books, 180...


Can't cuz.
Why should I have to?
I just want HER (or HIM) to do x,y,z Great. That and a 10 spot will get you a Starbucks.

Same ol' same ol'.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> I've been advocating root cause analysis forever on TAM. Few takers. Always easier to suggest one read the books, 180...


Root cause is always the best in theory. Unfortunately it relies on open and honest communication, and not just with one's partner, but often times more importantly with one's self. I suspect that most individuals and couples who have these skills are seldom in need of root cause analysis because they are doing it naturally to begin with as they go along.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Root cause is always the best in theory. Unfortunately it relies on open and honest communication, and not just with one's partner, but often times more importantly with one's self. I suspect that most individuals and couples who have these skills are seldom in need of root cause analysis because they are doing it naturally to begin with as they go along.


I was lucky enough to have a patient person in the ancient days of usenet pound HIS (my DH's) reality into my head when I wanted to remain insistent in MY reality. Lucky me!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

john117 said:


> I've been advocating root cause analysis forever on TAM. Few takers. Always easier to suggest one read the books, 180...


I understand your point, but the point of some of those books and techniques is to get to the root cause. Take the 180 for instance. I see it thrown around as the be all for every issue, BUT the motivation is often skewed because whoever is suggesting it or whoever it is being suggested to, tend to believe that it will help a relationship or get their SO back. The reality of it is that it should be done so that the individual focuses on the them SELF, and will (hopefully) resolve the root cause of their problem.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> Yeah, there may be some women like that. Mostly it's an act women put on for their friends though when they're talking like that, and it's a minority of women. This behaviour is pretty common among young, single men.


I honestly doubt that it's that much less common among young, single women as it is among young, single men, at least from what I've seen and heard.

It doesn't matter. People talk, and people stereotype. It is, however, more common for men to be promiscuous. It is in their genes (and jeans, :grin2 to hunt for a partner, and sometimes that search ends up with more "conquests". I would say the vast majority of young, single men don't truly care how many "conquests" they have if they find the right partner early in adulthood. Some immature men do talk about it, but only because of their own insecurities. Women generally want a man with at least some experience, especially non-virgins. Men generally want a woman who is closer to purity, and less experienced. If they are sexually compatible, some things will be overlooked by either gender.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> My experience tells me that the bottom line is whether or not you're getting your sexual needs met. It's not a gender thing. It's not an HD thing.
> 
> When I was getting my sexual needs met all the time and had never gone without, I was HD. My husband was as HD or higher, never lower, so I never was deprived. If you had asked me then what my partner did to show me that he loved me, sex would have been on the list, but it wouldn't have been the primary thing on the list. I probably would have listed the emotional needs of mine that he met as being much more important than sex.
> 
> ...


Needs don't seem nearly as important when they are being met, to the point where often, it's not even recognized as a need until it's not being met.

All too often, a person with a seemingly needy partner dismisses the other as simply needy or high maintenance rather than self reflect, and acknowledge that they may not be doing everything they can to meet their partners needs. It's just easier that way.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Root cause is always the best in theory. Unfortunately it relies on open and honest communication, and not just with one's partner, but often times more importantly *with one's self*. I suspect that most individuals and couples who have these skills are seldom in need of root cause analysis because they are doing it naturally to begin with as they go along.


I am sympathetic to some degree with this because I needed to get whacked HARD with a clue-by-four in order to recognize that *I* was insisting on MY rightness and unwilling to address the things that *I* could do differently.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> You've totally missed the point of my original comment about this:
> 
> What I was trying to point out was something I thought would be universally understood but was not being thought about in this thread: culturally, women often feel that the mating game involves men trying to get as many women as possible into bed as sport. I think that this may make it difficult for women to later see men's desire for more sex in marriage as "need" vs "want".
> 
> I really don't think that in our culture men feel that the mating game generally involves women trying to get as many men as possible into bed as sport. Would you argue that the game is perceived as the same for both men and women before marriage?


Oh, I got your point. I just trying to point out the double-standard part of your original post.

But, yes, I do agree that the "mating game" is inherently different depending on gender.

My viewpoint, as a man, is it was never about the "conquest", or the "number", it was about finding the right match. There are those men that are more about conquests and numbers, but the numbers of those kind of men are much lower than women realize, or men will admit.

From a cultural standpoint, you are absolutely correct. A lot of women do carry those misconceptions about men and sex into their married life. That skewed viewpoint, and unhealthy attitude will undoubtedly leave it's mark on her marriage.

Either way, it is extremely important to have a healthy attitude about sex going into any marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Root cause is always the best in theory. Unfortunately it relies on open and honest communication, and not just with one's partner, but often times more importantly with one's self. I suspect that most individuals and couples who have these skills are seldom in need of root cause analysis because they are doing it naturally to begin with as they go along.


You can do RCA from one side - therapists do it all the time. But you're right, it takes communication regardless. With oneself especially.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I was lucky enough to have a patient person in the ancient days of usenet pound HIS (my DH's) reality into my head when I wanted to remain insistent in MY reality. Lucky me!


Usenet's cool. So you're what, 70


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ynot said:


> I understand your point, but the point of some of those books and techniques is to get to the root cause. Take the 180 for instance. I see it thrown around as the be all for every issue, BUT the motivation is often skewed because whoever is suggesting it or whoever it is being suggested to, tend to believe that it will help a relationship or get their SO back. The reality of it is that it should be done so that the individual focuses on the them SELF, and will (hopefully) resolve the root cause of their problem.


The 180 - my understanding thereof at least - is mostly actions to take or not take. Not reflections. Eventually if you change enough parts it may work.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> Usenet's cool. So you're what, 70


LOL! Nope. Married youngish. Trying to decide if I should be mad at you now. :x


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> I understand your point, but the point of some of those books and techniques is to get to the root cause. Take the 180 for instance. I see it thrown around as the be all for every issue, BUT the motivation is often skewed because whoever is suggesting it or whoever it is being suggested to, tend to believe that it will help a relationship or get their SO back. The reality of it is that it should be done so that the individual focuses on the them SELF, and will (hopefully) resolve the root cause of their problem.


Here's the thing. There is NOTHING that can be done to guarantee a specific REaction from someone else. ALL anyone can do is work on themselves. A 180 CAN engender increased respect and attraction for someone who has been a beta Nice Guy, begging his mamma wife for sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> You can do RCA from one side - therapists do it all the time. But you're right, it takes communication regardless. With oneself especially.


And not just verbal communication, but being able to look objectively at the totality of the given information, especially any unpleasant truths.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> NS, as for hysterectomy, I would never suggest that-I let my wife and her doctor determine what is needed, and then I support that decision. If that is something that happens, so be it. Despite what you might think, I want my wife happy and healthy-and a tad bit more sexual. I just know that I have read BC pills can impact libido and my wife is already low in that area to start with. I had the V so she could get off the pill, but yet she is back on the pill. We are DONE with kids, so I said you had the babies, I will take care of birth control. Oh well, I am used to my wife being the way she is, I just dream of a day where maybe she could revert back to the days before we were married, when she seemed a lot more in the mood.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Here's the thing. There is NOTHING that can be done to guarantee a specific REaction from someone else. ALL anyone can do is work on themselves. A 180 CAN engender increased respect and attraction for someone who has been a beta Nice Guy, begging his mamma wife for sex.


Without a doubt, which is why I say the motivation of doing the 180 or any of the other various techniques described in many books should be SELFISH motivations and not aimed at achieving some reaction or response from anyone else. The problem is that quite a few around here seem to imagine that doing the 180 will somehow magically solve the problem and their SO will come crawling back.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Without a doubt, which is why I say the motivation of doing the 180 or any of the other various techniques described in many books should be SELFISH motivations and not aimed at achieving some reaction or response from anyone else. The problem is that quite a few around here seem to imagine that doing the 180 will somehow magically solve the problem and their SO will come crawling back.


I don't see what is wrong with hoping that is a side effect. What am I missing?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

john117 said:


> The 180 - my understanding thereof at least - is mostly actions to take or not take. Not reflections. Eventually if you change enough parts it may work.


There in lies the problem with many. The 180 is not about the specific actions to take or not take. Those are only a small aspect of the whole thing which is to get the individual to focus on them self ie self reflect. That is the problem is that some people think if you just ignore your partner things will get better, because they haven't bothered to take the time to understand what really needs to be done. The same holds true of many other techniques, where in many seek the quick and easy (ie actions) without considering the truly hard work that is required (ie self reflection) That is why so many people fail at recovery and remain angry and bitter for years or at reconciliation which ultimately fails after the initial improvement once the applicant reverts back to their old ways.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't see what is wrong with hoping that is a side effect. What am I missing?


The problem is, for many people, the side effect is the objective.

The 180 is one of those things where, to be successful, the motivation behind it is perhaps more important than the end result. In order for it to be effective, the motivation and measure of success must be self improvement.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't see what is wrong with hoping that is a side effect. What am I missing?


There is nothing wrong with hoping that is a side effect. Other than you are being motivated by others, rather than by your own needs. That is all it should be a side effect and nothing more. The idea is to heal your self. If your partner likes what they see, great. If they don't you know it is time to move on.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> The problem is, for many people, the side effect is the objective.
> 
> The 180 is one of those things where, to be successful, the motivation behind it is perhaps more important than the end result. In order for it to be effective, the motivation and measure of success must be self improvement.


Ok so it behooves me, should I suggest it in the future, to be more clear. I totally get what you are saying.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> No improvement, ball is in my court because she has told me this is me-this is what I am about. So ball is in my court to accept it (which I have) or leave. Now, if I made a threat to leave-who knows, maybe she would change but I seriously doubt it. AND, I am not going to make a threat that I am not prepared to follow through with.


Yes, this is correct: If you aren't prepared to leave, don't bluff. That will just make your situation worse.

But on the other hand, I would not tolerate this sort of behavior. She gets what she needs from your marriage, and you don't. Why is that acceptable to you?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I'll take a stab.
> 
> She's not interested, it doesn't turn her on at all and it actually makes her feel disgusted to even think about doing this.
> 
> ...


If I were *married *to the dude in question, I wouldn't have a problem with that.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> You say you get my point, but you don't get my point.
> 
> It's not really an "unhealthy attitude", it's a misunderstanding based on the reality of the dating situation and the fact that, as you said, even men don't admit that most men are not "numbers men". Men feed the misrepresentation, if it is a misrepresentation. But women are supposed to somehow read the minds of the male population in this instance to realize that it isn't true?
> 
> This view is rampant not just in the dating scene but in movies, TV shows, books, etc.. It is just culturally accepted that men are trying to maximize the amount of sex they get and the variety of sex they get in any and all situations. This is a cultural phenomenon. Rather than telling women that their taking in this message gives them an "unhealthy attitude" towards sex (nice touch, btw), men might better just try to understand why women have some confusion of men's needs vs wants with regards to sex.


I won't argue your point because I DO get "it", and agree for the most part. I was merely pointing out the double-standard in some of your posts. Women can be just as much to blame as men. Face it, men and women are just completely different. I know we can agree on that.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> What I guess I learned was that the sex drive creates a hunger, like the need for food does. If you're starving you just don't care that someone has picked up the dry-cleaning without being asked, bought you flowers and run you a warm bath. You want to eat and if the same thoughtful soul does not provide food, you resent it no matter what else s/he does.


This should be a sticky (no pun intended)!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't see what is wrong with hoping that is a side effect. What am I missing?


You can hope for it. It may happen. But that can't be the primary motivation.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think you are absolutely correct. 

I think people who have never gone a long time being sexually frustrated don't know what the experience feels like - they don't understand that nothing else is a substitute. 

By the same token, I expect that someone who has never been constantly pressured for sex knows what that feels like - having your partner constantly ask for something you really don't want to do, and which makes you feel used.

Few people get to experience both sides of this so it makes conversations difficult.






OliviaG said:


> My experience tells me that the bottom line is whether or not you're getting your sexual needs met. It's not a gender thing. It's not an HD thing.
> 
> When I was getting my sexual needs met all the time and had never gone without, I was HD. My husband was as HD or higher, never lower, so I never was deprived. If you had asked me then what my partner did to show me that he loved me, sex would have been on the list, but it wouldn't have been the primary thing on the list. I probably would have listed the emotional needs of mine that he met as being much more important than sex.
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> You say you get my point, but you don't get my point.
> 
> It's not really an "unhealthy attitude", it's a misunderstanding based on the reality of the dating situation and the fact that, as you said, even men don't admit that most men are not "numbers men". Men feed the misrepresentation, if it is a misrepresentation. But women are supposed to somehow read the minds of the male population in this instance to realize that it isn't true?
> 
> This view is rampant not just in the dating scene but in movies, TV shows, books, etc.. It is just culturally accepted that men are trying to maximize the amount of sex they get and the variety of sex they get in any and all situations. This is a cultural phenomenon. Rather than telling women that their taking in this message gives them an "unhealthy attitude" towards sex (nice touch, btw), men might better just try to understand why women have some confusion of men's needs vs wants with regards to sex.


It's incumbent on husbands to make clear that sex for them isn't just about "getting off".

It's incumbent on wives to consider the possibility that their husbands might not be a$$holes and that they might actually mean what they're saying.

I don't get why, in an otherwise good marriage, this should be so hard.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> It's incumbent on husbands to make clear that sex for them isn't just about "getting off".
> 
> It's incumbent on wives to consider the possibility that their husbands might not be a$$holes and that they might actually mean what they're saying.
> 
> I don't get why, in an otherwise good marriage, this should be so hard. *That's what she said*


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

People talk about how important it is to make sure that you're sexually compatible before you marry.

I don't think it's possible. It seems fairly common for women to change from spontaneous to responsive desire (or no desire) as the relationship ages.

Also, having children throws hormonal and psychological changes into the mix, usually for the worse.

I have two sons. When they get married and, especially, consider having kids, I will suggest that they discuss with their wives the possibility that their wives sexual desire may wane and obtain from her a commitment to be willing to work on the situation should it occur.

I also have a daughter who is about to be married. My wife and I have discussed this with her as well.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

alexm said:


> I think you're missing the point of what he actually wants from his wife - just as his wife is missing the point, as well.
> 
> What he wants, in reality, is not solely sex. He wants a partner who shows an interest in taking care of his needs. These ones happen to be sexual.
> 
> ...


Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are PLENTY of men--single AND married--who DO want "just sex". Many women got this idea from SOMEWHERE, and that "somewhere" is probably a combination of their earlier experiences with boys and men. 

Teenage boys typically do not want to make babies or are "in love" with the cheerleader in the backseat of the car. They want a sexual "release". Quite often, this does NOT change just because a man gets married. 

Also, being in my mid 50's now, I have ventured into the dating scene again and I can tell you...MOST of the men I have talked with aren't looking to make babies or to have a LTR; they want to have "fun" without ANY responsibility. And yes, they will still LIE, telling you they want a "commitment", and after a few dates or even a few months, they suddenly change their minds. 

It's also ironic how a married man can claim that he wants the "connection" with his wife through sex only when he's horny...and at no other time.

Is it any WONDER why women feel the way they do?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> I think you're missing the point of what he actually wants from his wife - just as his wife is missing the point, as well.
> 
> What he wants, in reality, is not solely sex. He wants a partner who shows an interest in taking care of his needs. These ones happen to be sexual.
> 
> ...


Bravo, sir. Bravo.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

50's and dating is a pretty self selecting part of the population...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> 50's and dating is a pretty self selecting part of the population...


There are other forums on the internet where this attitude is rampant. I got married. I work. She needs to put out. Quid pro quo. It is sickening.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> 50's and dating is a pretty self selecting part of the population...


I dated in my teens...and 20's...and 30's...and 40's. Believe me, not a whole lot has changed. 

Men wanted "only" sex in my 20's...and 30's...and 40's. 

They just didn't seem to have much interest in putting the RELATIONSHIP ahead of sex. Getting sex was and still is their "bottom line". 

How many people are willing to END a marriage because they don't think that they're getting enough sex? Did it ever occur to them that maybe they're not getting enough sex because their partner isn't getting enough "relationship"?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are PLENTY of men--single AND married--who DO want "just sex". Many women got this idea from SOMEWHERE, and that "somewhere" is probably a combination of their earlier experiences with boys and men.
> 
> Teenage boys typically do not want to make babies or are "in love" with the cheerleader in the backseat of the car. They want a sexual "release". Quite often, this does NOT change just because a man gets married.


If a woman doesn't trust "men" based on her previous experiences with bad men, why would she then marry a man she doesn't trust?

Not arguing with you about whether those men exist. They do. I just don't understand why a woman would marry a man if she didn't 100% trust his motivations to begin with.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> There are other forums on the internet where this attitude is rampant. I got married. I work. She needs to put out. Quid pro quo. It is sickening.


Really? 

Then why marry?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> If a woman doesn't trust "men" based on her previous experiences with bad men, why would she then marry a man she doesn't trust?
> 
> Not arguing with you about whether those men exist. They do. I just don't understand why a woman would marry a man if she didn't 100% trust his motivations to begin with.


For ME the notion that all he wanted was sex came FROM his nagging and whining.

Edited to add that the limit setting is what woke me up to really try to LISTEN to what he was trying to tell me. That and usenet, as I mentioned.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I think that these two quotes, above, go together.
> 
> He doesn't even realize why he needs it; he thinks it's because "men connect emotionally through sex" when the reason really is that he has a sexual hunger; a physical *need* that is not being fulfilled. It's a need, not a want. If his drive goes down below his wife's he will express love and emotional connection in non-sexual ways. But he hasn't experienced that and doesn't know that about himself.


If men "connect emotionally through sex", well...is that the ONLY time they "connect"? Seems that my (late) husband would tell me the same thing, yet 5 minutes after he had his orgasm and was dressed again he was INSULTING me for some perceived "slight". 

Some "connection"....


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> Really?
> 
> Then why marry?


Well according to what I have read, he got married for reliable sex, and he thinks she got married for money. Shrug.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> Really?
> 
> Then why marry?



Do we marry JUST to or MAINLY to "put out"?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> If a woman doesn't trust "men" based on her previous experiences with bad men, why would she then marry a man she doesn't trust?
> 
> Not arguing with you about whether those men exist. They do. I just don't understand why a woman would marry a man if she didn't 100% trust his motivations to begin with.


It's not that she's marrying someone she doesn't trust. Usually, she DOES trust him...until he starts to reveal his TRUE motivations, quite often AFTER marriage.

She doesn't always KNOW his "motivation" to begin with, because it's hidden. Men quite often put their "best foot forward" before they're married (My late husband told me AFTER we were married that a "guy can't keep up that 'charade' forever!)

Just like women are accused of the "bait-n-switch" when it comes to sex, men can also be accused of doing the same thing when it comes to "love".


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> The fact that you used the word "blame" tells me that you have no clue what I'm saying.


It's obvious we are coming from two totally different points of contention, and this circular reasoning is not getting us anywhere, so...carry on!:grin2:

FWIW, I agree with the gist of your point. You just can't see mine.:frown2:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> EXACTLY!!! He thinks he needs it for "emotional connection" but he's wrong. He needs it because he has a physical hunger for it and can't be satisfied with anything until that hunger is satiated. If he didn't have the hunger he'd connect in other ways. But if he has the hunger nothing else matters.


I don't fully agree with this. A lot of men DO build connection through sex. The thing that makes little sense is how that connection can be built in a one sided fashion when she does not share his interest. That is not much of a connection.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> Do we marry JUST to or MAINLY to "put out"?


Neither - yet many laws tend to spec out in detail how much is "acceptable".. 

Can't help but wonder exactly why such laws were created


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> For ME the notion that all he wanted was sex came FROM his nagging and whining.
> 
> Edited to add that the limit setting is what woke me up to really try to LISTEN to what he was trying to tell me. That and usenet, as I mentioned.


Talking to myself here.  For ME, the belief that all he wanted me for was sex HURT increasing the resistance.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> EXACTLY!!! He thinks he needs it for "emotional connection" but he's wrong. He needs it because he has a physical hunger for it and can't be satisfied with anything until that hunger is satiated. If he didn't have the hunger he'd connect in other ways. But if he has the hunger nothing else matters.


Ohhhh, I'm sure he had and "emotional connection" to me during the act, but his "emotions" were much, much different than mine. 

He got an emotional 'high' out of having sex, but it had nothing little to do with ME or even US. 

His ego SOARED because of sex. He didn't "need" me to give him a release; but he wanted a release and he wanted ME to 'give it to him'. He felt like he had "won" something (Olympics, lottery, etc.). 

Sex was all about how HE felt both physically AND emotionally. If *I* had an orgasm, it was *because* of HIM. 

YyyyyyyyyCUK!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think men are actually kinda dumb, and I say that in a loving way. 

It has been my experience that men don't intuit just how different they are from women. A couple of examples:
-After 30 years of marriage I am STILL reminding my husband I do not like to have my back scratched as hard as he does. 
-My brother(s) don't seem to grasp or care that there are other people in the room who might also know a thing or two and might also have something to say on the subject.
-My husband's GP said, in reply to how is your sex life so I can assess the stress level on your whole life, "you have sex that often? That means your wife really loves you!" When my husband told me that I laughed and said "no what it means is that your wife is horny and she has a dirty mind."

Men just do not get it.

Of course their desire for sex means they rationalize why they want it and what it means. It means their body wants to ejaculate and their mind wants it to mean something more than just ejaculating. Hence, sex becomes tied to emotional expression of love and attachment.

Why can't we all just accept that having an orgasm and the desire to have that orgasm be a meaningful one is our main motivator? Why can't we all just accept that having a meaningful orgasm is important for us to function in a calm way? Why does sex have to come with such baggage attached to it? Why do women have to think a man who wants sex is using her? He wants a meaningful orgasm, no big deal. He is your husband, he wants a meaningful orgasm, no big deal. 

I think the history of slvt shaming women has them naturally on the defense when it comes to sex. We're not supposed to want it. Not supposed to get it except under certain circumstances. Not supposed to be aware of it. Giving it up? What are we giving up? Why is it 'give it up' rather than share with me?

Don't accept the status of women as either virtuous or slvttish. We are both. And damn proud of it!


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> EXACTLY!!! He thinks he needs it for "emotional connection" but he's wrong. *He needs it because he has a physical hunger for it and can't be satisfied with anything until that hunger is satiated. If he didn't have the hunger he'd connect in other ways. But if he has the hunger nothing else matters.*


Now, we're getting somewhere! I do, however, feel that a man can emotionally connect once that hunger is satisfied, but until that happens, emotional connection is the last thing on his mind.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't fully agree with this. A lot of men DO build connection through sex. The thing that makes little sense is how that connection can be built in a one sided fashion when she does not share his interest. That is not much of a connection.


So...when a man has sex with a prostitute, is he "connecting" with _her_?

If a man has sex with his wife, but is also having an affair, is he "connecting" with BOTH of them?



Are we starting to see WHY so many women are confused about this?

ETA: The point is, that men do NOT "connect" with _ALL_ women they have sex with and men do not _always_ feel that "connection", even if they're married.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I had never thought of a 'meaningful' orgasm. Why do orgasms have to be meaningful? Why do people want their orgasms to be meaningful?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Vega said:


> Ohhhh, I'm sure he had and "emotional connection" to me during the act, but his "emotions" were much, much different than mine.
> 
> He got an emotional 'high' out of having sex, but it had nothing little to do with ME or even US.
> 
> ...


OMG! You just described my ex.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Hence, the comment that men are much easier to read than women. Generally speaking, men really are simplistic in their expression of love, while women are very complex in their expression of love. Why should it be about some ulterior motive at all? Why not just enjoy each other fully? Communication is key to being on the same page as to what is expected in any relationship.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> It's not that she doesn't trust his motivations. It's that she thinks it's a characteristic of all men, just like she thinks they are generally less emotionally expressive (also not true of each and every man), they don't care about the colour of the furniture, they are more mechanically inclined than the average woman. It's not a blame thing, or a trust thing, it's an inherent characteristic that she thinks she knows about men in general.


So if I understand correctly, there's a hole in her knowledge about the person that she fills in with gender stereotypes. I can see that happening I guess. 

But if it's a negative stereotype that you know will cause strife, again I go back to why marry him?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> *I dated in my teens...and 20's...and 30's...and 40's. Believe me, not a whole lot has changed.
> 
> Men wanted "only" sex in my 20's...and 30's...and 40's.
> 
> ...





Vega said:


> It's not that she's marrying someone she doesn't trust. Usually, she DOES trust him...until he starts to reveal his TRUE motivations, quite often AFTER marriage.
> 
> *She doesn't always KNOW his "motivation" to begin with, because it's hidden.* Men quite often put their "best foot forward" before they're married (My late husband told me AFTER we were married that a "guy can't keep up that 'charade' forever!)
> 
> Just like women are accused of the "bait-n-switch" when it comes to sex, men can also be accused of doing the same thing when it comes to "love".


So something that is open knowledge is somehow hidden?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Luvher4life said:


> Communication is key to being on the same page as to what is expected in any relationship.


Not just communication, but _*HONEST*_ communication...

...which is RARE. 

Could you just imagine a man _*honestly*_ saying to his wife, "I want sex with you right now. I'm not in the mood to try and please YOU, because I want to watch the ball game in a few minutes. But I have a few minutes to spare, even though I just yelled at you 10 minutes ago and frankly, you're a pain in the ass. But I'm horny right now and I want YOU to get me off right now."

Ladies...any takers?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> But if it's a negative stereotype that you know will cause strife, again I go back to why marry him?


Because it's not always evident BEFORE marriage.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

PAPS18, it looks like your thread has been hijacked.

It looks like you will need to stand up to your wife at some point and make your feelings known. Whether she is willing to change or not is up to her. All hope is not lost, but it will definitely take some backbone on your part, and a definite reality check to see past her own views enough to see that your needs aren't being met. The question is, are you willing to rock the boat enough to see the change through? Idle threats will get you nowhere.

I would again suggest that you and her both read 1 Corinthians 7 together, talk it over, see what conclusions you come to with the meaning, and see if you can get her to see that she needs to fulfill her end of the marriage. You need to make sure you're fulfilling your end, too.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> So something that is open knowledge is somehow hidden?


The wanting of sex isn't usually hidden. The motivation for it often is.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> Not just communication, but _*HONEST*_ communication...
> 
> ...which is RARE.
> 
> ...


What you are describing here is just an ass hole...something that is completely gender blind.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I actually could not care less if the sex is "just sex" devoid of emotional connection. Lord knows the evening we met was not about emotional connection. What I did not like was my misconception that ALL he wanted about me was a sexual vessel. Not my time, company, sense of humor, love...


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> The wanting of sex isn't usually hidden. The motivation for it often is.


How so? If as you said, it's about men just wanting to get off, and not really about the connection, you are already defining his motivation, leaving anything said to the contrary as simply lying. Since the motivation is already preknown, how can it be hidden?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Hahahahaha.....I'm assuming that was a joke..?


Men and women are both very easy to read when you apply a template to them.

Too bad reality is more complicated.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Vega said:


> Not just communication, but _*HONEST*_ communication...
> 
> ...which is RARE.
> 
> ...


Bwahahahaha... I nearly choked on my drink with this one!

Yes, I could actually "see" that happening. It's like a BAD soap opera!

Honesty definitely IS key to open communication.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> How so? If as you said, it's about men just wanting to get off, and not really about the connection, you are already defining his motivation, leaving anything said to the contrary as simply lying. Since the motivation is already preknown, how can it be hidden?


Obviously it's not ALWAYS known. And THAT'S the problem. 

Men seem to want sex whether there's a connection or not. So how is a woman supposed to know when?


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> Hahahahaha.....I'm assuming that was a joke..?


>


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> It's not that she doesn't trust his motivations. It's that she thinks it's a characteristic of all men, just like she thinks they are generally less emotionally expressive (also not true of each and every man), they don't care about the colour of the furniture, they are more mechanically inclined than the average woman. It's not a blame thing, or a trust thing, it's an inherent characteristic that she thinks she knows about men in general.


True.

If you go into a relationship with preconceived notions, they are more likely to come true. Same for men and preconceived notions about women.

The trick is to realize that stereotypes generally have some basis in truth, but each individual is different and have an open mind.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> EXACTLY!!! He thinks he needs it for "emotional connection" but he's wrong. He needs it because he has a physical hunger for it and can't be satisfied with anything until that hunger is satiated. If he didn't have the hunger he'd connect in other ways. But if he has the hunger nothing else matters.


There is certainly something to the "hunger" theory.

But a lot of men (and some women) report feeling more emotionally distant if it's been a while since the last get together.

Now, is that because the "hunger" is distracting them? Maybe.

I can't say that I've ever really felt the "hunger" as much as most men report. But, more sex does make me more emotionally connected. Same with my wife.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> So if I understand correctly, there's a hole in her knowledge about the person that she fills in with gender stereotypes. I can see that happening I guess.
> 
> But if it's a negative stereotype that you know will cause strife, again I go back to why marry him?


Judging from many of the posts on this thread I would say your statement applies to more than just the OPs wife. Men are simple, women are complex. Men are dumb, but women aren't. men are lazy but women aren't. Women, know and men do not. Guys just want sex, but women want love. Etc etc. 
One of the biggest issues I see is this idea that most (pick your gender) are (pick your adjective). The reality is that each of us is an individual with our own particular set of wants and needs. Sometimes we meet some one who's wants and needs align with our own and viola! Other times, they run contrary to each other and it becomes contingent on each of us to do what is best for our self.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> I think it's easy for men to understand other men and for women to understand other women. Not very surprising that we each find our own sex easy to read.


That saying was likely written by a man who wasn't getting any...:grin2:



OliviaG said:


> I don't think this thread was hijacked at all, contrary to what @Luvher4life has expressed. The conversation turned toward trying to explain *why* a woman might behave the way the OPs wife behaves. You'd think the OP might find that info useful. It might also be useful for him to be able to explain to *her* that he "needs" sex, that he isn't just trying to get as much of it as he can because he "likes" it.


Somehow I think he's been through this before, and has probably tried the "needs" approach. The problem is her not addressing his needs, therefore not fulfilling her vow to the marriage.

The question is how do we get her to address her skewed view of sex. We can talk until we're blue in the face about the "whys" of her viewpoint, but until she actually changes her thinking it won't matter.

That's why I suggested they both sit down and read what the apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, then discuss exactly what marriage means in the context of the problem he is attempting to have addressed. Nothing he says has worked, but if she is holding out for "religious" purposes, it's best she went to the Bible to find out that she is wrong for doing so. Reading the Bible is actually something she might READ because she isn't interested in reading anything else that addresses his need. She just needs to open up her eyes to the Truth.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Judging from many of the posts on this thread I would say your statement applies to more than just the OPs wife. Men are simple, women are complex. Men are dumb, but women aren't. men are lazy but women aren't. Women, know and men do not. Guys just want sex, but women want love. Etc etc.
> One of the biggest issues I see is this idea that most (pick your gender) are (pick your adjective). The reality is that each of us is an individual with our own particular set of wants and needs. Sometimes we meet some one who's wants and needs align with our own and viola! Other times, they run contrary to each other and it becomes contingent on each of us to do what is best for our self.


Stereotypes CAN be useful in absence of real knowledge. But applying a stereotype to an individual when you have the opportunity to discover the real person is just lazy.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> Obviously it's not ALWAYS known. And THAT'S the problem.
> 
> Men seem to want sex whether there's a connection or not. So how is a woman supposed to know when?


Maybe it's because I'm so frickin' hot, and women just want me, but my experience has been that women want sex whether there's a connection or not too with the most important factors being situational as opposed to absolute. In other words, there are times where women just want to get laid just like men.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> Obviously it's not ALWAYS known. And THAT'S the problem.
> 
> Men seem to want sex whether there's a connection or not. So how is a woman supposed to know when?


Wait until you have reason to believe that he's a good guy.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I've come to understand that men think that's the primary way they connect until they have a partner who wants more sex than they do. Then it's "what about all the other nice things I do for you? I do those for you because I love you, you know." Exactly what women typically say.


That's a great insight.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Luvher4life, yep hijacked and that is ok. It has become tough for me to read many of the posts here, so many generalizations being used-some women posting seem to really hate men. I want to say this about the connection part, because I have read a lot of women denying this. When I, not all men, when I speak about connection-here is the deal. When my wife and I have sex, we are passionate-a lot of touching, a lot of kissing, before the act even happens. When the act happens, I think I get more out of the actual penetration than she does, I orgasm. I am tired, I collapse and we cuddle with each other-it is a very shared feeling of closeness, like none other I experience, a special bond. I am HAPPY, she is HAPPY, at least for short period of time, all our troubles are not surrounding us, all our worries are gone. Now, the next hour we could get a phone call that brings it all back, the next morning we could wake up and read an email that brings it all back, but for that short time-the bonding and the true feeling of closeness/bonding is real for me and I assume for her. This feeling typically carries over-meaning I feel more connection to her for days on end-our communication is better, we laugh, we smile when around each other. I am able to be more of the emotional counterpart she needs. She has said this before and it is true. But, that fades after a week and certainly after two, and we become more like roommates. I know this so I TRY my best to stay that say positive and upbeat, caring, listening (something that most women crave-for their partner to LISTEN-truly LISTEN to them). But, again, it is really hard for me to remain like this after a certain period of time. Yes, you could say I have sex to orgasm-yes, and I CRAVE/LOVE that feeling but there is a real difference between orgasm with your loving partner than with masturbation. Yes, the orgasm result is the same-ejaculation occurs but the FEELING I get when with my wife is special and not empty-like my feeling when masturbating is. Initially I feel great after masturbation-what a relief but then I feel sad and almost lonely that it happened that way. Maybe this makes no sense to you all but it is how it is for me. I get tired of hearing all the generalizations about guys-yes, some guys are JERKS, but some guys are NOT.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

We need to flowchart this

You are not getting enough sex

Are you an ass hole?

-- Yes - Don't be an ass hole

-- No - Are you a doormat?

---- Yes - No more Mr. Nice Guy, "Man Up", etc

---- No - (This is the area that I'm most interested in)


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As an aside, I can say that in my own marriage I often tried to discuss this very issue with my wife. Unfortunately she filtered my concerns through the filter of society's views. So when I said I want to feel more connected or felt unloved, or felt disrespected or unwanted, or unneeded or any of the things I was feeling about how our relationship was going, all she ever heard was I wanted more sex. So I take great umbrage to this idea that all men want is sex crap.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> Luvher4life, yep hijacked and that is ok. It has become tough for me to read many of the posts here, so many generalizations being used-some women posting seem to really hate men. I want to say this about the connection part, because I have read a lot of women denying this. When I, not all men, when I speak about connection-here is the deal. When my wife and I have sex, we are passionate-a lot of touching, a lot of kissing, before the act even happens. When the act happens, I think I get more out of the actual penetration than she does, I orgasm. I am tired, I collapse and we cuddle with each other-it is a very shared feeling of closeness, like none other I experience, a special bond. I am HAPPY, she is HAPPY, at least for short period of time, all our troubles are not surrounding us, all our worries are gone. Now, the next hour we could get a phone call that brings it all back, the next morning we could wake up and read an email that brings it all back, but for that short time-the bonding and the true feeling of closeness/bonding is real for me and I assume for her. This feeling typically carries over-meaning I feel more connection to her for days on end-our communication is better, we laugh, we smile when around each other. I am able to be more of the emotional counterpart she needs. She has said this before and it is true. But, that fades after a week and certainly after two, and we become more like roommates. I know this so I TRY my best to stay that say positive and upbeat, caring, listening (something that most women crave-for their partner to LISTEN-truly LISTEN to them). But, again, it is really hard for me to remain like this after a certain period of time. Yes, you could say I have sex to orgasm-yes, and I CRAVE/LOVE that feeling but there is a real difference between orgasm with your loving partner than with masturbation. Yes, the orgasm result is the same-ejaculation occurs but the FEELING I get when with my wife is special and not empty-like my feeling when masturbating is. Initially I feel great after masturbation-what a relief but then I feel sad and almost lonely that it happened that way. Maybe this makes no sense to you all but it is how it is for me. I get tired of hearing all the generalizations about guys-yes, some guys are JERKS, but some guys are NOT.


Very well put. Orgasm with someone you love is like nothing else in the world, especially after that someone has orgasmed first. There is nothing in the world as satisfying as pleasing your partner. it is different than orgasming with anyone else or by yourself thru masturbation. And the real hurt comes when that special some one, the one with whom person who you should be experiencing this event with, just doesn't care enough to even try. Sex should be the one thing you experience with your spouse that you don't experience with anyone else on earth. It hurts when they could not care any less.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Yes, I try to imagine living life in the shoes of the person not wanting sex as often, to me it would be wonderful but I am sure it might not be so great. I am sure there is some guilt or knowing full well you are letting the other person down. I have posted this before but I always have to chuckle a bit when my wife initiates sex with me and asks to make sure I want to first!! But it just goes to show, like you mentioned OliviaG, she truly doesn't get it at all. She views through her eyes and can't envision my viewpoint. Now, I have told her so many times I can't count about the connection from sex-that it is NOT just about me getting off, it is so much more. She comments about how much more upbeat and positive I am after sex-she sees the proof of what I tell her but she is so different that she can't understand it. Just like I can't understand any guy that has a woman that wants sex turning her down-maybe I would understand it better if my wife was wanting sex more than I wanted it-actually, this did occur during our trying to conceive months. She wanted it constantly because she wanted to get pregnant. After 2-3 days in a row, I was like, really?? So in that way, I guess I can relate but then again, I have NEVER EVER asked my wife for sex very often. I respect her interest is much different, so when I was initiating, I tried to wait until days where I knew she had got more sleep, days where she seemed to be a very upbeat and positive mood. BUT, I got rejected so many times, I just had enough. I can't read her at all, there have been times when she initiated that I would have NEVER thought she was interested at all. There are times when I think she seems like she is maybe in the mood and she goes to bed early even. That is why, despite lowering my chances for the connection with my wife, I rarely now initiate because she knows (even though she still asks me if I want to have sex) that I am always available and ready for her.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Luvher4life said:


> The question is how do we get her to address her skewed view of sex.


Start out by thinking that her view of sex isn't "skewed"...or any OTHER negative word. 

Her view has as much validity as HIS.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

I absolutely get what you are saying PAPS18. I just wish there was a definitive resolution to your particular dilemma. She enjoys it, but yet she only wants it when she wants it, and you have no say-so in the matter. That really is painful, and for the life of you, you don't understand WHY she wouldn't want to "feel" that connection all the time, not just the "pleasure of the moment". The pleasure of the moment is not the objective here, but the emotional connection it provides with afterwards, sometimes for days.

She REALLY needs to address this repressive view of sex she has in order to make things the way they "should" be in your marriage. She is backwards in her thought process. It shouldn't be about the act itself, but the emotional connection, and general sense of well-being afterwards. Why wouldn't she want this, ALL the time? She obviously enjoys it. You enjoy it. It makes absolutely NO SENSE to deprive the marriage of that, just because it is "sex".


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> That all makes total sense to me; I feel the exact same way.
> 
> It's because we have a biological need for sex. You wife has a biological need for sex too, but not for as much of it as you do, apparently. She probably doesn't realize it's a need of yours because she doesn't realize it's a need of hers either, since she doesn't have to go without it.


Another aspect to the need going unfulfilled is part of that connection is the feeling of being desired, that your partner wants you physically.

Virtually every other aspect of the relationship can be objectively self measured...attraction and desire is totally subjective, and dependent on the partner.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Yep Ynot, if my wife and I were having sex more often, I would have no need to masturbate. As I am getting older and older, I can tell my need for sex is getting less-which might be a good thing since my wife is LD. But, I still do masturbate and each time-while it feels great in the process and after conclusion, a few minutes later I am almost mad I did it. I want to do be having sex with my wife and knowing I did that instead almost feels like I am failure. It is empty, it is NOT the same. That is why I get a little upset when women think all guys just want to get off. Yes, I am sure some guys are like that-heck, I was like that as a younger man (in thought only, not actions) but even if divorced, if I started dating again, I would not be out looking to screw multiple women at once. I would be looking for a woman that I could form a solid relationship with-but I would be looking for a woman that could be more upfront about sexuality-could openly talk about it without getting embarrassed, actually didn't think certain parts of sex were "gross". But I can assure you, I would not be seeing how many women I could sleep with-that was NEVER my style before married and still is not my style now.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Vega said:


> Start out by thinking that her view of sex isn't "skewed"...or any OTHER negative word.
> 
> Her view has as much validity as HIS.


I agree that the word "skewed" has a negative connotation, but it is true.

Her view absolutely has as much validity as his, but not MORE, which is the point here. She holds the key here, and won't open up enough to see his viewpoint.

Saying something "negative" when approaching the problem is absolutely NOT a good thing. I'm in agreement with that.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> You have two teenagers... Who is talking to them about sex and what is the message they're getting! Are you raising a daughter who will be just as sexually inhibited and ignorant as her mother? How about your teenaged son? Does he know how to turn a woman on, where to touch and to touch so that her passions build rather than become irritated? Who is teaching your children about sex? If it is their mother, it's time you took over because their mother is clueless.


Two questions:

1 If the non-inhibited parent's sex life has consisted of a decade or more of sporadic, poor-quality, low-variety sex with an uncommunicative partner, where will they have gained the real-life experience to teach their children?

2 If every woman is different and what works on one woman doesn't work on another (a common theme here), how does the father teach his son to touch a.n. other random woman the "right way"?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> As an aside, I can say that in my own marriage I often tried to discuss this very issue with my wife. Unfortunately she filtered my concerns through the filter of *society*'s views. So when I said I want to feel more connected or felt unloved, or felt disrespected or unwanted, or unneeded or any of the things I was feeling about how our relationship was going, all she ever heard was I wanted more sex. So I take great umbrage to this idea that all men want is sex crap.


This is what I did though replace religion and you nailed it. I truly did not GET it.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> Okay, this viewpoint of yours speaks volumes.
> 
> If you don't want to understand what your spouse might be thinking then good luck addressing the problem satisfactorily.
> 
> ...


The condescending tone of this post tells me you didn't understand my viewpoint at all.

It IS imperative to understand BOTH viewpoints to address any problem. No doubt about it.

The problem comes when one spouse does not see a problem even when told about it, won't address it, and denies continually said problem even exists.

Understanding the problem has two sides is not the issue. The lack of addressing the problem by one side or the other is the issue. Eventually, something drastic has to happen for a breakthrough.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Luvher4life said:


> I absolutely get what you are saying PAPS18. I just wish there was a definitive resolution to your particular dilemma. She enjoys it, but yet she only wants it when she wants it, and you have no say-so in the matter. That really is painful, and for the life of you, you don't understand WHY she wouldn't want to "feel" that connection all the time, not just the "pleasure of the moment". The pleasure of the moment is not the objective here, but the emotional connection it provides with afterwards, sometimes for days.
> 
> She REALLY needs to address this repressive view of sex she has in order to make things the way they "should" be in your marriage. She is backwards in her thought process. It shouldn't be about the act itself, but the emotional connection, and general sense of well-being afterwards. Why wouldn't she want this, ALL the time? She obviously enjoys it. You enjoy it. It makes absolutely NO SENSE to deprive the marriage of that, just because it is "sex".


If my husband thought this way about me without even TRYING to understand my point of view, I would never have sex with him again.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OliviaG, I actually DID turn her down one time-it was counterproductive. She said ok, and rolled over and went to sleep within 5 minutes (I assume that is how she believes I should handle it when she says no), meanwhile I tossed and turned for hours knowing I had just said no and likely would not get another opportunity for a while. 

Actually, I would love for her to have a spike in drive. I honestly don't think an uptick from 1-2-3x a month, to say 6x a month (which I think would be very drastic for her) would be a problem for me at all, even though I can tell I don't think about sex nearly as much as I did even 5 years ago. Perhaps the constant rejection has dimmed my drive but I believe it is more that we have very busy lives with work and kids activities year around pretty much-I am away from home 3-4 nights a week at practices etc. She is working at home, kids have homework, heck, we NEVER even watch TV as we are busy until 9 or 10, then have to go to bed as we get up at 5 or 5:30 to start the next day.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Luvher4life said:


> I agree that the word "skewed" has a negative connotation, but it is true.
> 
> Her view absolutely has as much validity as his, but not MORE, which is the point here. She holds the key here, and won't open up enough to see his viewpoint.
> 
> Saying something "negative" when approaching the problem is absolutely NOT a good job. I'm in agreement with that.


Yup, skewed. She seeks to control him by restricting his ability to take care of himself. That's skewed.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> If my husband thought this way about me without even TRYING to understand my point of view, I would never have sex with him again.


And herin lies the catch 22...

Her not trying to understand his point of view has already resulted in an effectively sexless marriage, so never having sex with him again...where exactly is the loss there?


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Vega-are you talking to me?? I think I have done nothing but TRY to understand her thought process. But I get that you had an ASS for a husband. I might not be like him.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Yup, skewed. She seeks to control him by restricting his ability to take care of himself. That's skewed.


He has already admitted that he DOES take care of himself. His wife doesn't like it, but he does it anyway.

He's not being controlled.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Vega said:


> If my husband thought this way about me without even TRYING to understand my point of view, I would never have sex with him again.


It was very helpful that my husband was never ever diminutive or negative about my views. He DID try to understand them. But steadfastly did not agree with them. In the kindest but most honest way possible.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> And herin lies the catch 22...
> 
> Her not trying to understand his point of view has already resulted in an effectively sexless marriage, so never having sex with him again...where exactly is the loss there?


In all honesty, I can't tell whether the marriage is "clinically sexless", as they DO seem to have sex, or if they're just not having the QUANTITY of sex to his liking. 

Plus, she never initiates 'relieving him' when she's not interested in sex (and by the way...'relieving HIM' would still be "having sex" in HER mind. Sex does not always mean _intercourse_)


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> He has already admitted that he DOES take care of himself. His wife doesn't like it, but he does it anyway.
> 
> He's not being controlled.


That's true, he's not being controlled. But she is SEEKING to control him in that aspect. Which is a skewed viewpoint. She's just not been successful at implementing it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Vega said:


> In all honesty, I can't tell whether the marriage is "clinically sexless", as they DO seem to have sex, or if they're just not having the QUANTITY of sex to his liking.
> 
> Plus, she never initiates 'relieving him' when she's not interested in sex (and by the way...'*relieving *HIM' would still be "having sex" in HER mind. Sex does not always mean _intercourse_)


Can't help it. Makes me think of helping him pee.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Can't help it. Makes me think of helping him pee.


NOW you're starting to get what it MIGHT feel like (emotionally) to HER.

There's a reason WHY women say that sometimes they feel like a 'sperm *TOILET*' for their husbands/partners...


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Vega said:


> If my husband thought this way about me without even TRYING to understand my point of view, I would never have sex with him again.


That's EXACTLY what PAPS18 is going through, except from the other end of the spectrum! Not to the extent of "never", but do you see the point now?

Why the double standard?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Vega said:


> NOW you're starting to get what it MIGHT feel like (emotionally) to HER.
> 
> There's a reason WHY women say that sometimes they feel like a 'sperm *TOILET*' for their husbands/partners...


I am not sure why you think I don't understand what it feels like to her. I was her.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> NOW you're starting to get what it MIGHT feel like (emotionally) to HER.
> 
> There's a reason WHY women say that sometimes they feel like a 'sperm *TOILET*' for their husbands/partners...


And if that's how she sees sexual activity with her husband, that is a sad thing for both of them.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Relieving me doesn't sound very sexy!! My point was simply, when you know that something you can provide will make your partner happy, every now and again you might think (on your own because I never asked her to do it after she rejected me) here is a way I can do something to make my partner happy. It might not be of interest to me but he will get a lot out of it. I think like this with my wife-if there is something I know she likes or something that I know will make her day better when I know she has had a tough day, I want to do that for her. I want to make her happy, she is the most important person in my life along with my children. If I was demanding, I would be an ass. I am not demanding at all, I guess I am again looking through my own goggles, in that even if I don't like doing something-like cleaning the toilet since that term was used, I know when my wife is in her clean mode, that is a chore she doesn't really like-so I will take that for her-not because I am thinking, if I do this, she will have sex with but because I want to do it because it is something to help her and I know she doesn't like cleaning toilets. I go in there and spray half a can of cleaner, wipe in and around the toilet and I am done-takes me all of about 2-3 minutes, no big deal and she is happy.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> Relieving me doesn't sound very sexy!! My point was simply, when you know that something you can provide will make your partner happy, every now and again you might think (on your own because I never asked her to do it after she rejected me) here is a way I can do something to make my partner happy. It might not be of interest to me but he will get a lot out of it. *I think like this with my wife-if there is something I know she likes or something that I know will make her day better when I know she has had a tough day, I want to do that for her.* I want to make her happy, she is the most important person in my life along with my children. If I was demanding, I would be an ass. I am not demanding at all, I guess I am again looking through my own goggles, in that even if I don't like doing something-like cleaning the toilet since that term was used, I know when my wife is in her clean mode, that is a chore she doesn't really like-so I will take that for her-not because I am thinking, if I do this, she will have sex with but because I want to do it because it is something to help her and I know she doesn't like cleaning toilets. I go in there and spray half a can of cleaner, wipe in and around the toilet and I am done-takes me all of about 2-3 minutes, no big deal and she is happy.


To go back to the original question, she isn't naive, because you have already explained how important sex is to you. She is selfish because she doesn't care to do anything about it.

I know this is counterintuitive, but *this *is probably part of the problem. You need to be less helpful to her, since she is apparently completely uninterested in helping you in the sexual department. Why should she change if she is getting what she wants?


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

At this point, it sounds like the "180" is worth considering. She is obviously unwilling to address your needs the same way you address hers. Show her a little deprivation, with explanation. I've always thought this method to be a last resort, and can be counterproductive, but she does need to actually feel enough to try. It sounds like you've pretty much tried everything else to get through to her and it hasn't worked. There will be some fallout from such a move, so be prepared.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

I am new to this particular web forum. Is this beta mindset that the OP has viewed favorably here? There are many books written about men exhibiting this beta mentality and how it inhibits desire.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

PAPS18 said:


> Relieving me doesn't sound very sexy!! My point was simply, when you know that something you can provide will make your partner happy, every now and again you might think (on your own because I never asked her to do it after she rejected me) here is a way I can do something to make my partner happy. It might not be of interest to me but he will get a lot out of it. I think like this with my wife-if there is something I know she likes or something that I know will make her day better when I know she has had a tough day, I want to do that for her. I want to make her happy, she is the most important person in my life along with my children. If I was demanding, I would be an ass. I am not demanding at all, I guess I am again looking through my own goggles, in that even if I don't like doing something-like cleaning the toilet since that term was used, I know when my wife is in her clean mode, that is a chore she doesn't really like-so I will take that for her-not because I am thinking, if I do this, she will have sex with but because I want to do it because it is something to help her and I know she doesn't like cleaning toilets. I go in there and spray half a can of cleaner, wipe in and around the toilet and I am done-takes me all of about 2-3 minutes, no big deal and she is happy.


I think she can't do it because it violates the mental narrative that is her shield against the toxic shame she experiences concerning sex. She can only open the door when involuntary externalities like being on vacation or acute arousal make it temporarily OK. The rest of the time, I think she needs to pretend that neither of you is focused on sex or feels deprived. Otherwise, she'd have to confront the imbalance and unfairness to you. 

That guilt is greater the better you are as a husband in other aspects--if, as you say, you are generally loving and considerate, aren't being an abusive, demanding jerk and/or failing to meet her various material and emotional needs, etc, then there is little justification for depriving you. So she needs to believe that you are not deprived, or at least that the status quo is a natural and sanctioned state of affairs that you should be, and are, OK with.

Your posture of silence and forbearance re: sex enables this avoidance, but both the discovery that you're masturbating behind her back and the prospect of consciously deciding to "help you out" blow a gigantic hole in her defensive rationalizations. Which is why the first evokes a blistering response and the second never happens.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure why you think I don't understand what it feels like to her. I was her.


The "you're" was supposed to be plural. If you were *her* (as was *I*) then my comment doesn't apply to you.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Capster said:


> I am new to this particular web forum. Is this beta mindset that the OP has viewed favorably here? There are many books written about men exhibiting this beta mentality and how it inhibits desire.


You're opening up a can of worms with that question?:grin2:


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Relieving me doesn't sound very sexy!! My point was simply, when you know that something you can provide will make your partner happy, every now and again you might think (on your own because I never asked her to do it after she rejected me) here is a way I can do something to make my partner happy. It might not be of interest to me but he will get a lot out of it. I think like this with my wife-if there is something I know she likes or something that I know will make her day better when I know she has had a tough day, I want to do that for her. I want to make her happy, she is the most important person in my life along with my children. If I was demanding, I would be an ass. I am not demanding at all, I guess I am again looking through my own goggles, in that even if I don't like doing something-like cleaning the toilet since that term was used, I know when my wife is in her clean mode, that is a chore she doesn't really like-so I will take that for her-not because I am thinking, if I do this, she will have sex with but because I want to do it because it is something to help her and I know she doesn't like cleaning toilets. I go in there and spray half a can of cleaner, wipe in and around the toilet and I am done-takes me all of about 2-3 minutes, no big deal and she is happy.


There is a BIG difference between doing something _FOR_ your wife and doing something _TO_ your wife. And likewise, she may see your cleaning the toilet as something you do _FOR_ her (in order to use that as 'leverage' or to make an argument as to WHY she 'should' give you sex. You might be surprised to know how many husbands feel entitled to getting sex from their wives because of the little bit of work they do around the house), whereas giving you a HJ is something she would be doing _TO_ you. Also, you're cleaning the toilet for BOTH of you; not ONLY _her_. She may not LIKE to clean the toilet but seriously...is it her 'job' to clean it, anyway? 

So, comparing your toilet cleaning to her giving you a HJ may not fly, in _her_ mind.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Vega said:


> There's a reason WHY women say that sometimes they feel like a 'sperm *TOILET*' for their husbands/partners...


I see the similarities here but, that is exactly how women get to perceiving sex acts as gross. Next time you do that, you know your mind will go straight to thinking about a toilet flush. The same can be thought of with PIV. Is that gross too? Is the vagina a toilet for men?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sscygni said:


> Marriage is supposed to be about compromise. If one partner is unhappy with ah aspect of the relationship, both parties should want to work to find a solution, a middle ground. It sounds like in this case, his wife's middle ground is no compromise at all. This is the root of the problem - she knows very well that it is an issue for him, and does not seem motivated to work towards a solution. Selfish.


this is a tempting POV, but the problem is that some things are compatible with compromise and some aren't.

if you actually don't like broccoli at all, just eating a little bit of broccoli does not really seem reasonable. 

it's a binary issue. OP wants it. His wife doesn't. 

There is no middle ground. the only way out is for one of them to abandon his/her position.

after 25 yrs of "not interested," it is not realistic that his wife will budge.

OP can get mad about it, but it is wasted energy. This is "broccoli" to her. She flat doesn't like it and there is no argument that will make her like it.

If she just did it anyway, it would be terrible for both of them. She would do a terrible job of it and resent OP for making her.

Does that make her selfish? Is it selfish to not eat the broccoli your spouse cooks for you when he knows you don't like it?


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Vega, I get your point and yes, I do things I do around the house for all of us-kids included. I think Phil is really on to something. As long as she pretends all is good, all is good. I guess back years ago when we had some big fights, tears shed etc, was my chance to get out because she made it clear she was providing all she was capable of-in her mind of course. But, she also knows I am not going to leave. We had friends get divorced, her reasons were not enough emotional connection, his not enough sex as we have talked about here. She noted to my wife, if my husband did what your husband did to help out around the house, I would be taking care of him. My wife heard it but maybe didn't hear it (meaning get it I heard from another room). I don't know but it can be frustrating if I really give it a lot of thought as I have posting here. Perhaps it is best for me to take a step away from this forum-I don't know. Might be worth a shot-but I do enjoy posting and reading other folks opinions.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Vega said:


> There is a BIG difference between doing something _FOR_ your wife and doing something _TO_ your wife. And likewise, she may see your cleaning the toilet as something you do _FOR_ her, whereas giving you a HJ is something she would be doing _TO_ you. Also, you're cleaning the toilet for BOTH of you; not ONLY _her_.
> 
> So, comparing your toilet cleaning to her giving you a HJ may not fly, in _her_ mind.


What's the nature of this big difference, and how are they mutually exclusive? Some "FOR" acts (like clean toilets) materially benefit both parties, but it is trivial to list other favors that do not.

Also, how would you categorize:

1. clipping a partner's hair, nails, or other grooming
2. scratching a violent itch they can't quite reach
3. giving a non-sexual massage of sore back, feet etc

Objectively, these all qualify as "things done TO". I would also view them as "things done FOR"--that is, as acts of service done in a generous spirit. 

But then, that's how I'd view what OP is desiring as well (and how I have in fact viewed it when doing the same for partners).

I'm left wondering if this distinction is another way of putting sex stuff in a separate box.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> I see the similarities here but, that is exactly how women get to perceiving sex acts as gross. Next time you do that, you know your mind will go straight to thinking about a toilet flush. The same can be thought of with PIV. Is that gross too? Is the vagina a toilet for men?


I'll tell ya, if you ever listen to the way that some men talk about sex and women, you would think that THEY were pissing into a loo. 

And if you've ever been with a man (or two...) who _treats_ you that way....

...NOT a good feeling.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> The only thing that I can think that you could do is to turn her down a few times when she initiates sex and stop relating to her sexually for a while. That would feel manipulative, but I assure you that she won't like it if she feels a lack of your attention and gets left alone long enough to become sexually frustrated, herself.


Ooh, I don't know. I did this with my wife and she never came knocking. Not once. And worse yet, once she saw that I could get by for over a month without sex, this revelation was immediately put to use by her and our love life dropped off a cliff. It was one of the biggest mistakes I'd ever made. It really depends on whether she really wants you or not. If she does, maybe this works. If she doesn't, it could make things worse because you end up demonstrating to her that you don't "need" anything... Ugh. My life sucks.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
These conversations always end up confused because people have such different experiences.

It really gets back to the "situational" vs "natural". LD question.

Many people (men and women) do not desire much sex because of issues with their partners. These partners may be selfish lovers, may not care about them outside of sex, may be undesirable for a wide variety of reasons. Given the right situation and right partners, they would enjoy frequent sex. This situation certainly exists. 

Others do not want sex under any realistic conditions. Their partners are doing nothing wrong, these people simple do not want, or rarely want sex. This situation certainly exists.

People who have been in the first situation may not believe the second exists, but it does. (several posters experience this). 



The discussions combine these - and that can give very distorted ideas of what is going on. 


Also, there are people who "only" want sex, which is different from people who need sex to be happy but need OTHER things as well. 

I cannot be happy without an active sex life. I also cannot be happy without shelter, food, water, and other physical necessities. In addition I can't be happy without love, companionship affection.

So, without sex I am unhappy, no matter what else is going on. But - if I were to divorce my wife and have sex with beautiful call girls every night I also would not be happy because I would be missing all the other things that I need.

One could argue that I "need" too many things - so I guess the question is whether it is reasonable to expect physical comfort, love, affection, shared interests AND a passionate sex life.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Vega said:


> I'll tell ya, if you ever listen to the way that some men talk about sex and women, you would think that THEY were pissing into a loo.
> 
> And if you've ever been with a man (or two...) who _treats_ you that way....
> 
> ...NOT a good feeling.


There are all kinds of men and women out there. Some respectful and others not. Although what you say is almost certainly true for some men (and women), don't assume that this is the majority view... Before this thread, I'd never heard of such a comparison. Honestly, it's not a thought that deserves further propagation.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Phil Anders said:


> Also, how would you categorize:
> 
> 1. clipping a partner's hair, nails, or other grooming
> 2. scratching a violent itch they can't quite reach
> ...


Yes, I agree that 1-3 can be seen as both things done TO and done FOR your spouse/partner. 

But what if your partner wanted you to scratch his or her back for 5 minutes, several times a week? Would you ALWAYS be up for the task? Over 25 years? Would your "generous spirit" start to fall by the wayside a bit when you realized that your partner seem to want his or her back scratched only HOURS after you cleaned the toilet, almost every time you cleaned it? 



> I'm left wondering if this distinction is another way of putting sex stuff in a separate *box*.


:laugh: Um...pun intended?!


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Vega said:


> NOW you're starting to get what it MIGHT feel like (emotionally) to HER.
> 
> There's a reason WHY women say that sometimes they feel like a 'sperm *TOILET*' for their husbands/partners...


I can't seem to let this go. The analogy that sex is like using a toilet is revolting to me. It feels tremendously degrading to what is an act of love, giving, pleasure, and devotion; whatever the act or genders... I just want to forget that I read that...


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Vega said:


> Yes, I agree that 1-3 can be seen as both things done TO and done FOR your spouse/partner.
> 
> But what if your partner wanted you to scratch his or her back for 5 minutes, several times a week? Would you ALWAYS be up for the task? Over 25 years? Would your "generous spirit" start to fall by the wayside a bit when you realized that your partner seem to want his or her back scratched only HOURS after you cleaned the toilet, almost every time you cleaned it?


Generosity of spirit, here assumed, doesn't exist in a vacuum; it's dependent on the state of the relationship overall. If it's replaced by resentment, then the equation is a different one. 

I don't know about "ALWAYS, several times a week." Yet many chores are done at that frequency and with greater effort, so it isn't inconceivable. It would depend on the circumstances and the overall level of goodwill. I'm taking OP at his word that there _is_ goodwill generally, outside of this issue, and also that it's not a case of "ALWAYS" over 25 years, but rather a case of "NEVER"...pretty broad gulf! I expect that even sporadic spontaneous gestures of this kind would mean a lot to OP.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well this thread has certainly brought the skeletons out. I have to tell you @Vega that if any woman including the one who's back I have scratched daily for over 25 years said that having sex with her was using her as a "Cum Toilet", I would never eat a meal with that woman again. I'm starting to have Sympathy with @NobodySpecial and all the vomit comments earlier on. It's all I can do to keep reading this. 

My Thoughts today: Boy I really Screwed up this morning. For the past 2 weeks my Wife has been under some stress at work. She has been mean and ornery and downright shrewish to me over the whole time. And It's not my Fault. She comes home and all that pent up angst hits me in the form of cold shoulders and icy stares. Last night she seemed pretty stiff as she climbed into bed, so I offered a back rub. No way Mister leave me alone. Well OK. Naturally she slept poorly and woke up stiffer. So I asked again. She admitted that if I used the electric massager that would help. So in the time she had I got her relaxed and moving again. 

:::SARCASM::: Oh what a fool I was to do something that only benefited her. Especially after the way I've been treated. I'm just her errand boy, slave, drudge. I can't believe she expected me to do something for her! What kind of a selfish Jerk is she anyway? :::END SARCASM:::

And about that Beta Quip, Bring it on! @Capster


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> :::SARCASM::: Oh what a fool I was to do something that only benefited her. Especially after the way I've been treated. I'm just her errand boy, slave, drudge. I can't believe she expected me to do something for her! What kind of a selfish Jerk is she anyway? :::END SARCASM:::


Exactly! Why question the motive behind a kind act? When two people actually love each other it shouldn't really matter. No score cards should be needed. 



Mr. Nail said:


> And about that Beta Quip, Bring it on! @Capster


Bwahahaha...!>

Let the games begin..., although it would be better if there were a separate thread for that. Want to start one?:grin2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I've read most of your posts on this thread OP and my opinion is that your wife is neither naive or selfish. I think your issues with her boil down to how you two view sex in general. I don't know her so can't speak for her but let me use me as an example of what I mean. 

Prior to marrying my husband, I was in a LTR with a man who believed sex was less about the intimacy and more about the pleasure. He liked chasing the orgasm. It was about the excitement, exploration, and experimentation. He used sex as a stress reliever, as a soothing mechanism, as a workout even, any reason was good enough to have sex. He put a lot of effort into getting and having sex. The requests for HJs, or BJs, or the 6 different positions and 1 hour long sex sessions were a constant in that relationship. Thankfully, I recognized we were sexually incompatible and broke up with him after one too many 'we need to talk about our sex life' discussions.

See, to me sex is for one thing and one thing alone.....reinforcing an emotional connection, i.e. intimacy. My marriage to my husband has worked for 16 years because he believes the same thing. I do not 'reward' my husband with sex, I do not use sex to relieve his stress, and I do not give him sex as a 'gift'. If it's not something we are doing to mutually bond, then it's not happening. 

Have you ever asked her what she thinks about sex, specifically what role it plays in a relationship?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
men are susceptible to social pressures as well. The thoughts / statements from others: 

"If she doesn't want sex, you must be doing something wrong - you are a bad lover, you are selfish, not manly enough, too beta, to weak, too aggressive - its YOUR fault".

"give her time, she will become closer, trust you, love you"

Then after a long time:

"What - leave your wife of many years just because she won't have sex as often as you like? But she has always been like this".

and of course the deep worry that we ARE perverts, that "normal" people don't want sex every few days, don't want "porn" positions or actions. BJs are abusive and disgusting. 






OliviaG said:


> I don't think you need too many things. At least I hope not; I need the same things that you do.
> 
> I really don't know how so many men choose to endure decades without a good sex life in marriage. Men may have a higher sex drive than women do, but they also seem to have the capacity to go without it for longer than we do too (that is, for women who want/like/need sex).
> 
> Decades feeling uncared for and undesired? It seems completely intolerable to me.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> this is a tempting POV, but the problem is that some things are compatible with compromise and some aren't.
> 
> if you actually don't like broccoli at all, just eating a little bit of broccoli does not really seem reasonable.
> 
> ...


Actually, I agree with the compromise POV.

My wife hates green beans and broccoli. I love them both. When cooked correctly, I really enjoy them. I cook them the way I like them and have a side of Hollandaise sauce available for her. That is our compromise.

My wife also hates beets, but I have found a fancy french restaurant that makes them in a way she enjoys. 

Compromise might not be easy, but it is often possible if you try.

In a Gottman Institute Workshop, I was taught that to negotiate compromise on a marital gridlock issue, you need to be able to better argue your spouses position than they can. If you haven't really listened to them to the point that you truly understand their "reasons" and their fears, then you have no business trying to negotiate change or a compromise.

David Schnarch (Passonate Marriage) also feels that marriage is all about compromise in just about every aspect. He says that marriage is one of the hardest things (if done correctly) that two people can do. Marriage forces us to grow at a rate that is controlled by both our growth and the growth of our spouse. As such we are constantly finding ourselves being emotionally pulled & pushed into things we are not yet ready for and constantly pulling and pushing our spouse into things they are not ready for. The only way for a marriage to survive in such situations is for neither to grow or for the two to be flexible and learn to compromise.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Lila said:


> See, to me sex is for one thing and one thing alone.....reinforcing an emotional connection, i.e. intimacy. My marriage to my husband has worked for 16 years because he believes the same thing. I do not 'reward' my husband with sex, I do not use sex to relieve his stress, and I do not give him sex as a 'gift'. If it's not something we are doing to mutually bond, then it's not happening.
> 
> Have you ever asked her what she thinks about sex, specifically what role it plays in a relationship?


I agree that it's a vital question to answer.

Sex can be "for" a lot of things, ranging from release of physical tension to emotional bonding to transcendent spiritual union. "Intimacy" is a slippery construct as well. People define and approach it in different ways.

If a woman with exclusively responsive desire sets a requirement that sex meet one of the more exalted thresholds, she'll never be sexually frustrated, because she only ever becomes aroused in that "exalted" context of reinforcing an emotional connection. If she's married to a man with spontaneous desire, or to one who leads with the physical and finds the emotional in heat of the process, though, it pretty much guarantees he'll be frustrated quite often. 

It may work out fine if, as in Lila's case, the threshold for having sex is mutually and honestly agreed upon. Otherwise, assuming an otherwise-decent relationship, I continue to see the "no one-sided sexual favors" stance as fundamentally selfish and judgmental (ie, YOUR reasons for wanting sex are shallow and unworthy, so go pound sand). 

It also discounts what OP has been saying--that receiving such a favor from his wife would reinforce his emotional connection to her because it would constitute a selfless, loving, empathetic act in addition to being a mere physical release for him. It's BOTH, not either/or. It's why he doesn't want to just go jerk off in the shower.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> men are susceptible to social pressures as well. The thoughts / statements from others:
> 
> "If she doesn't want sex, you must be doing something wrong - you are a bad lover, you are selfish, not manly enough, too beta, to weak, too aggressive - its YOUR fault".
> ...


Yep. Stay or go, man-up or suck-up. You're damned.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Herschel said:


> I have always felt that anyone can do something that they are "indifferent" about for the other person. Whatever it involves, it can be done, and on an emotional level it should make them happy to make you happy. My mom needs that bookcase moved from upstairs to the downstairs. Ok honey, I don't want to ****ing do it, but because I love you I will and I'll be happy doing it cause it makes you happy.
> 
> I don't get the lack of intimacy for couples assuming the love and happiness is there. Even if it is just for one person's benefit, that should make you happy. You need intimacy in a marriage. It's not an option and it isn't a marriage without it. I have read all the LD and HD and other issues people have, and I am skeptical. I think there is just something brewing underneath it all that keeps the intimacy from happening. Whether it's you, or her or other psychological issues.
> 
> Nobody is ever selfish for wanting to bang their spouse. Ever.


I agree. I call this the traffic jam theory. If you can sit in a traffic jam just to get where you want to go, you can spend just as much time pleasing your spouse even if you don't get a big thrill from the act, if you love your spouse don't you get a thrill from making them happy?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> this is a tempting POV, but the problem is that some things are compatible with compromise and some aren't.
> 
> if you actually don't like broccoli at all, just eating a little bit of broccoli does not really seem reasonable.
> 
> ...


If the wife doesn't like sex, you'd be exactly right.

However, the evidence is that she DOES like sex (very occasionally or at hotels). 

Now, if she happily eats broccoli sometimes and enjoys it but doesn't eat it as often as I'd like...... It's not as good as her liking broccoli as often as I do, but it's different than not liking broccoli at all.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> These conversations always end up confused because people have such different experiences.
> 
> It really gets back to the "situational" vs "natural". LD question.
> ...


I agree. We definitely need to make up some new acronyms.

Make it happen.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I've read most of your posts on this thread OP and my opinion is that your wife is neither naive or selfish. I think your issues with her boil down to how you two view sex in general. I don't know her so can't speak for her but let me use me
> Prior to marrying my husband, I was in a LTR with a man who believed sex was less about the intimacy and more about the pleasure. He liked chasing the orgasm. It was about the excitement, exploration, and experimentation. He used sex as a stress reliever, as a soothing mechanism, as a workout even, any reason was good enough to have sex. He put a lot of effort into getting and having sex. The requests for HJs, or BJs, or the 6 different positions and 1 hour long sex sessions were a constant in as an example of what I mean.
> that relationship. Thankfully, I recognized we were sexually incompatible and broke up with him after one too many 'we need to talk about our sex life' discussions.
> 
> ...


So the only possible solution is to marry someone who has the exact same "need to bond" as you (same frequency, time of day, etc.) ? That seems unlikely.

And if the need for bonding is unequal, then it seems like someone is going to be unhappy.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Phil Anders said:


> I agree that it's a vital question to answer.
> 
> Sex can be "for" a lot of things, ranging from release of physical tension to emotional bonding to transcendent spiritual union. "Intimacy" is a slippery construct as well. People define and approach it in different ways.
> 
> ...


That's my problem with the Lila theorem.

Either it means that both partners need to have spontaneous desire at the exact same time; which seems unlikely.

Or, the following counts as "mutual bonding": I want a blowjob and my wife wants to give me a blowjob because she loves me, likes to make me happy and it fulfills her to do so. If this counts as "mutually bonding" (and I don't see why it wouldn't, then I guess the questions the OP has is "why doesn't my wife want to me happy? Why doesn't she care about my needs (or wants)? Doesn't she love me?" If that's the case, then the Lila theorem isn't anything different than what we've been discussing.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Vega said:


> If men "connect emotionally through sex", well...is that the ONLY time they "connect"? Seems that my (late) husband would tell me the same thing, yet 5 minutes after he had his orgasm and was dressed again he was INSULTING me for some perceived "slight".
> 
> Some "connection"....


Sure. And 5 minutes after my ex wife stopped snuggling with me on the couch, she was *****ing at me about something-or-other.

All connections of these sorts have a start and end point. They don't last all day. Sometimes they're 30 seconds long, sometimes it's a few hours.

Then yes - back to reality.

But everybody requires these connections throughout the day/week/month, or just in their life, period. They're not constants, they come and go.

"I'm in the mood to hold my husbands hand" 5 minutes later: "Now my hands all sweaty, that's enough".

"I'm in the mood to have sex with my husband". 5 minutes later: "That was good. Now go fix that chair."

I maintained in my previous post (now buried 10 pages back) that each person has different requirements for these connections and intimacies. They occur when the mood strikes. This includes sex. This also includes hand-holding, doing something thoughtful, buying a gift, whatever. Sometimes just listening to you.

When you marry someone, you sure as hell better know what THEIR things are - the things that give THEM the connection to you - and they should know yours. AND they should strive to act on them.

As I generalized in my previous post, men most often give and receive love and intimacy through sex - giving AND receiving. Women, most often through other things.

My wife gets all warm and fuzzy should I grab her hand and hold it, wherever we are, whatever we're doing. Does nothing for ME. Yet I still do it. Because it's one of HER connections, and it makes her feel loved and cared about. Do I have to understand WHY it has that effect on her? Do I have to analyze it to death?

Then why is sex and sexuality the one thing that DOES in marriage? Why is it the one thing, that many of us feel that connection from, that is so hotly debated? Two people are married - committed to each other. For one of those people, sex happens to be at the top of the list for feeling a connection with the other.

Why wouldn't EACH PERSON strive to meet the others needs in this very diverse area?

All to often, when it comes to sex, the less inclined partner effectively refuses to do so, meanwhile the other may be doing his or her utmost to meet their needs in this regard.

All because some people have over-complicated sex and sexual relationships.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> So the only possible solution is to marry someone who has the exact same "need to bond" as you (same frequency, time of day, etc.) ? That seems unlikely.
> 
> And if the need for bonding is unequal, then it seems like someone is going to be unhappy.


I guess this all depends on the priority one places on specific criteria of attraction. Trust me, finding someone who's sexually compatible isn't highly unlikely or difficult. The issue becomes weighing the other criteria against sexual compatibility. In other words, what other qualities/expectations is one willing to forego to be with the person who is sexually compatible. For example. ...we sometimes read here where a man takes very fondly about sex with an ex only to learn that she was not marriage material. He gave up good sexual compatibility for other qualities, maybe a good mother, etc. 

Someone else on this thread said it best....we pick mates based on the whole, not the sum of their parts. I'm not saying OP has a chance of fixing his problems but at least he can figure out his wife's position.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I guess this all depends on the priority one places on specific criteria of attraction. Trust me, finding someone who's sexually compatible isn't highly unlikely or difficult. The issue becomes weighing the other criteria against sexual compatibility. In other words, what other qualities/expectations is one willing to forego to be with the person who is sexually compatible. For example. ...we sometimes read here where a man takes very fondly about sex with an ex only to learn that she was not marriage material. He gave up good sexual compatibility for other qualities, maybe a good mother, etc.
> 
> Someone else on this thread said it best....we pick mates based on the whole, not the sum of their parts. I'm not saying OP has a chance of fixing his problems but at least he can figure out his wife's position.


Yes, finding someone who is sexually compatible* is *difficult.

The sexuality of someone is usually quite different in the first year or two of a relationship than after being married for ten years with a couple of young children and breastfeeding. 

A man's sexuality quite different when he's 60 years old vs. his 20 year-old self with large amounts of testosterone raging through him.

A woman's sexuality can quickly change once the kids are out of the house and being a Mom is no longer her primary role and she remembers what it's like to be a wife (as long as her husbands libido hasn't dropped through the floor due to age).

So I can't for the life of me understand why some people seem to think that it's a snap to pick out partners who will be sexually compatible for the next 25 years.

If "sexually compatible" means that both parties have to have spontaneous desire at the same time in order for anything to happen, well then it's virtually impossible to not have at least one person doing a lot less "bonding" then they'd prefer.

Now, if finding someone who's sexually compatible means finding someone who, if they lose their libido is willing to try to find it or someone who has responsive desire but is willing to try to be aroused or (heaven forbid) is happy to "get you off" if they're not in the mood; then that's possible to find (if you search carefully).

But that's not finding someone who's sexually compatible. That's finding someone who loves you and believes your needs are worthy of their attention and effort.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Yes, finding someone who is sexually compatible* is *difficult.
> 
> The sexuality of someone is usually quite different in the first year or two of a relationship than after being married for ten years with a couple of young children and breastfeeding.
> 
> ...


You and I have gone over this argument several times before and suffice it to say, we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> You say you get my point, but you don't get my point.
> 
> It's not really an "unhealthy attitude", it's a misunderstanding based on the reality of the dating situation and the fact that, as you said, even men don't admit that most men are not "numbers men". Men feed the misrepresentation, if it is a misrepresentation. But women are supposed to somehow read the minds of the male population in this instance to realize that it isn't true?
> 
> This view is rampant not just in the dating scene but in movies, TV shows, books, etc.. It is just culturally accepted that men are trying to maximize the amount of sex they get and the variety of sex they get in any and all situations. This is a cultural phenomenon. Rather than telling women that their taking in this message gives them an "unhealthy attitude" towards sex (nice touch, btw), men might better just try to understand why women have some confusion of men's needs vs wants with regards to sex.


I wasn't going to Stand Up and do this but the thought of a texting [sexting] release was more than this old man could resist.

I waded through the voluminous sticky posts and have come to the conclusion that neither gender understands the other as Olivia has repeated ever so many times...and I concur. 

Men have sexual needs, not wants. This dynamic changes as he ages. A young man is a pu$$y bookie. All he cares about are the numbers. 

As said dude ages, the {Wants Some} replaces the {Needs some} whether the dude wants this to happen, or not. Mother Nature and Father time slowly close off his seminal desire-sphincter. 

The raging hormones and the gallon jug of semen with a sprinkle of sperm for spice starts to decline as he passes each decade. 

Why, cosmic rays and too many Brewski's deteriorate his sperm. Survival of the Species necessitates that sperm be healthy. Birth defect probability "status" signals Mother Nature to slap a restraining order on the dudes action between the sheets.

Pump the same aging dude full of Analbolic Berry ****tails and he will get very horny but will still not have enough bug spray to spit and knock his mistress out of her ********.

The male anatomy is rigged to fail. Call it a cruel trick con****ted by an Amazonian Cruella. It is planned obsolescence by Mothers Nature and Fathers Timely acquiescence.

Get rid of the old bulls and replace them with the hungry number crunching younger satyrs.

You can' t squirt what you don't have. And if the hose is not over pressured by a plumbing system with high head pressure, the man must wait until the bodies pump fills up the Semen Tower again. 

In conclusion, dirty Al Gore invented the internet and filled it with Porn to keep the old guys contributing to their IRA's and to keep Wall Banger Street rife with green envy. 

Plan B, gland back-up Porn unfortunately [sometimes] keeps HD men and HD women in permissive matrimony. Beats the "Dump the LD SO" mentality. It does this deed by beating the fire to a frenzied flame, extinguished by the flood of relief that follows, if you get my drift and fluid meaning.

Lord Onan is always available especially when nuptial opportunity takes a long holiday.

Needs will be met. by hook or by the crook of ones hand.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> But that's not finding someone who's sexually compatible. That's finding someone who loves you and believes your needs are worthy of their attention and effort.


This is all this entire thread is about.

Yet, far too many people read "sex" and it's a whole different ballgame.

If this was about anything else - ANYTHING else - nobody would be disagreeing with anybody.

If I held my wife's hand 3x a month, and she was the one to take it, yet she desired me to do this much more often AND take the initiative, everyone on here would be telling me what I moron I was for not doing this for her.

I couldn't rightfully sit here and explain how it does nothing for ME, I'm only willing to hold her hand 3x a month, and I don't understand for the life of me WHY she cares so much about this, and ohmygod why won't she shut up about the hand-holding already, it's like it's all she wants from me!!! What about all the other things I do for her?

Point is - why on earth does one have to analyze and fully attempt to understand the things that our partner gets the most intimate, relational enjoyment from? Why is the lone item that gets so heavily scrutizined, and seems to be perfectly okay to say "**** you" about?

Who ****ing cares what things our partners require, should they happen to be different than ours? Isn't the purpose of loving somebody (especially enough to marry) to make our partners lives better, and in return receive the same? Make your partner happy! They'll make YOU happy! Everybody should just be happy making their partner happy and vice versa. Otherwise it just creates misery, which we see here all too often.

And after all, ladies and gents, it's just sex. Honestly. Sex is something that should be taken quite seriously prior to marriage. Who you have sex with, how you have sex, where you have sex, what the consequences are, etc etc etc.

Once married, why can't it just be a fun and loving thing to do with the person you love a few times a week (or whatever amount is acceptable for each party? How on god's green earth does it suddenly become a chore?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> This is all this entire thread is about.
> 
> Yet, far too many people read "sex" and it's a whole different ballgame.
> 
> ...


Maybe the reason I see this issue differently is because I don't think it's anyone's else responsibility to ensure one's happiness. Husbands and wives should be able to find that happiness within themselves without relying on others. Let me explain. I didn't marry my husband in order for him to _make_ me happy and I know I didn't get married just to have the added responsibility of making him happy. I was already a happy person. I married him to share in MY happiness and vice versa. It goes back to compatibility.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Capster said:


> I am new to this particular web forum. Is this beta mindset that the OP has viewed favorably here? There are many books written about men exhibiting this beta mentality and how it inhibits desire.


The general feeling here is that being a doormat ("too beta") is a very poor way to behave if you want an active sex life with your wife. Of course I can't speak for everyone but that is the usual viewpoint expressed by most posters.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

lila said:


> maybe the reason i see this issue differently is because i don't think it's anyone's else responsibility to ensure one's happiness. Husbands and wives should be able to find that happiness within themselves without relying on others. Let me explain. I didn't marry my husband in order for him to _make_ me happy and i know i didn't get married just to have the added responsibility of making him happy. I was already a happy person. I married him to share in my happiness and vice versa. It goes back to compatibility.


^^^this^^^

+1,000,000


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Here's How Much Sex You Should Be Having, According To Science | IFLScience


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Estrogen encourages her to keep a man around the home.
Testosterone links to sex drive.

That's why the pill (with it's hormones) tends to reduce sex drive, IIRC it converts the T into something else, which tells the uterus it's already pregnant - which is why on some women they stop releasing eggs and cycling (and while the latter is convenient, it's not neccessarily good as the human uterine lining is suppose to slough away, unlike other mammals).

If she goes on HRT her sex drive would pick up. But my last ex was pretty much the same as your wife, and just doesn't see the point to changing _her_ lifestyle. Her hormones are likely to be equivalent to yours when you were about 8yrs old, what would it take to have changed your mind at 8yrs old? nothing, because other people aren't a concern of yours when your hormone levels are at that level.



PAPS18 said:


> Not going to go into a ton of details but let me just give you all some info before the question-
> 
> Married 25 years, wife and I are mid 40's, married young. Have two teen kids. Wife is on BC pills-was off pill for a couple years after last child born, I had a V about maybe 7-8 years ago, she got off BC but got back on about 3 years or so ago, because of irregular periods-and very heavy bleeding-she went to doc got a checkup-checked a lot of things, put on pill and still on them today. Of course I have read this is a libido killer but my wife is LD even off the pill, just worse on it from what I see. I would love to get her off the pill and honestly at her age I am not sure why the doc keeps her on them-I have read about pre-menopause and seems irregular periods are normal, but it is her body so I let her do what she feels is best along with the doctor.
> 
> ...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Lila said:


> Maybe the reason I see this issue differently is because I don't think it's anyone's else responsibility to ensure one's happiness. Husbands and wives should be able to find that happiness within themselves without relying on others. Let me explain. I didn't marry my husband in order for him to _make_ me happy and I know I didn't get married just to have the added responsibility of making him happy. I was already a happy person. I married him to share in MY happiness and vice versa. It goes back to compatibility.





Vega said:


> ^^^this^^^
> 
> +1,000,000


This seems like an alien thought pattern to me. If happiness is not the goal of marriage then marriage has no purpose. The MRA guys are right it is simply slavery. If I had not been happier being with her I certainly would not have married. 



Vega said:


> Here's How Much Sex You Should Be Having, According To Science | IFLScience


I'm not working for the minimum. Or worse yet the Scientific Average Minimum. Was your ambition in life to get a minimum wage job? Would that make you Happy?

When my close acquaintances were on Testoterone reduction therapy for Prostate gland trouble they were happy, sexless, emotional, and their hair grew back. Is THAT what you want? A man who cries at Chick Flicks? Worker bees are happy. Happy little communists with no ambition.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lila said:


> Maybe the reason I see this issue differently is because I don't think it's anyone's else responsibility to ensure one's happiness. Husbands and wives should be able to find that happiness within themselves without relying on others. Let me explain. I didn't marry my husband in order for him to _make_ me happy and I know I didn't get married just to have the added responsibility of making him happy. I was already a happy person. I married him to share in MY happiness and vice versa. It goes back to compatibility.


Okay, then to share in one's happiness. Same difference. I didn't get married to BE happy. But in a successful marriage, the outcome is often that yes, one is happIER. If you're worse off than before, then you're doing it wrong. If you're exactly the same, okay. That's your prerogative. I'd rather be with somebody that brightens my life, though, and increases my over all happiness, even if I was good prior to marriage.

I kind of always thought that was the point of friendships, relationships and marriages.

But it's the role of a partner to ensure each other continues to be happy throughout the relationship. This includes sharing things each person enjoys, trying new things, going to new places, and yes, doing things for one another.

If you don't do any of the above (or all of the above) then you can be reasonably certain that the other won't do the same for you.

In the case of this thread, as well as my marriage, other people's marriages who have contributed to this thread, and many more on this board, there is one thing missing, or neglected.

My one and only point is that, 9 times of out 10, whatever it is that one person feels is missing - and that is important to them - is god awfully easy to rectify. Yet so many excuses routinely get bandied about (among them, "it's not my job to make you happy"). And you know what? It's not anybody's "job" to make someone happy, you're right.

But you get what you give in life.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> men are susceptible to social pressures as well. The thoughts / statements from others:
> 
> "If she doesn't want sex, you must be doing something wrong - you are a bad lover, you are selfish, not manly enough, too beta, to weak, too aggressive - its *YOUR fault*".


This is why I am hesitant to respond to posts like this. (I mean aside from being misunderstood and called nasty names like man-hater.) Someone comes to the forum asking what do I do to achieve X, often more desire from wife. THEY are the ones who want change. But when you tell them to act, they get hurt that it is their fault. It is not about fault. The person who wants the change needs to change. How do I get my spouse to do x,y,z .... You don't. The ONLY one you change is yourself. (Thank you usenet.) 

There is nothing wrong with you. Why aren't you lovable the way you are? You are. Everything you say indicates that your wife loves you. But if you want to change the game in the sex department, you need to be willing to change the game. You aren't.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Lila said:


> Maybe the reason I see this issue differently is because I don't think it's anyone's else responsibility to ensure one's happiness. Husbands and wives should be able to find that happiness within themselves without relying on others. Let me explain. I didn't marry my husband in order for him to _make_ me happy and I know I didn't get married just to have the added responsibility of making him happy. I was already a happy person. I married him to share in MY happiness and vice versa. It goes back to compatibility.


For us men you have explained this perfectly. You are not responsible. And that IS the rub.....not. We are doomed. No rub from your quarter....Penny Dreadful.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Im a woman but I do feel that husbands and wives should make each other happy. Of course you can find happiness in other areas of your life outside of time spent with your spouse. But that doesn't mean both shouldn't try to do things for each other that brings the other happiness.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

thefam said:


> Im a woman but I do feel that husbands and wives should make each other happy. Of course you can find happiness in other areas of your life outside of time spent with your spouse. But that doesn't mean both shouldn't try to do things for each other that brings the other happiness.


Thank you! This is the absolute truth. Making each other happy is what marriage is all about. Sometimes, that means doing things you don't necessarily like to do. I get extreme pleasure when I make my wife happy, therefore I sometimes do things that I don't necessarily like to do. Seeing her smile is worth any extra effort to me.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
In the cases where there is situational LD, there are things the HD can and should do.

In in the innate cases, the suggestions tend to be either "threaten to leave", or "leave". For those of us not willing to leave the person we love over sex, that advice can't be followed. The reasonable conclusion is that the problem can be fixed - and I think most of us realize that. We just come to forums like the to blow off steam and get sympathy. 

There is also some tendency to post when we see what appears to be someone with an innate LD partner being blamed for not doing enough. 

The discussions are useful though in understanding the situation. Certainly they have encouraged me to suggest to anyone getting into a relationship that sexual compatibility is vital. It should be viewed as an absolute requirement (though of course not the only one). Something that must be understood before there is any long term commitment. 










NobodySpecial said:


> This is why I am hesitant to respond to posts like this. (I mean aside from being misunderstood and called nasty names like man-hater.) Someone comes to the forum asking what do I do to achieve X, often more desire from wife. THEY are the ones who want change. But when you tell them to act, they get hurt that it is their fault. It is not about fault. The person who wants the change needs to change. How do I get my spouse to do x,y,z .... You don't. The ONLY one you change is yourself. (Thank you usenet.)
> 
> There is nothing wrong with you. Why aren't you lovable the way you are? You are. Everything you say indicates that your wife loves you. But if you want to change the game in the sex department, you need to be willing to change the game. You aren't.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> I wasn't going to Stand Up and do this but the thought of a texting [sexting] release was more than this old man could resist.
> 
> I waded through the voluminous sticky posts and have come to the conclusion that neither gender understands the other as Olivia has repeated ever so many times...and I concur.
> 
> ...



Great post. I'd like to add that the irony of porn is that while it can keep so called HD in submissive matrimony, as you call it, it can also create a false HD where one would not have existed. 

So chicken, egg..... which came first? Are they really HD or does the porn create it? Why does a so called hd person even need porn? When I feel really turned on i don't need the stimulus of porn. Maybe one who needs porn isn't as hd as they think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> In the cases where there is situational LD, there are things the HD can and should do.
> 
> In in the innate cases, the suggestions tend to be either "threaten to leave", or "leave". For those of us not willing to leave the person we love over sex, that advice can't be followed. The reasonable conclusion is that the problem can be fixed - and I think most of us realize that. We just come to forums like the to blow off steam and get sympathy.


This is actually another reason I am hesitant to comment on these threads. While it is true that an unwillingness to put up with a sexless or low sex marriage is the likeliest way to wake up a wife, there is a lot of other advice given. But instead of doing anything, lots of you guys do nothing instead choosing the "blow off steam" which is tantamount to whining. Very unmanly. 



> There is also some tendency to post when we see what appears to be someone with an innate LD partner being blamed for not doing enough.


How would one even know if someone is "innate" LD? How would that supposed LD person know if they have never experienced the behaviors that would increase attraction through debetaizing? It is EASY to call oneself LD when you don't have any other answer.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1 If the non-inhibited parent's sex life has consisted of a decade or more of sporadic, poor-quality, low-variety sex with an uncommunicative partner, where will they have gained the real-life experience to teach their children?



You still don't know how to touch a woman? I don't mean that as a derogatory type question, I'm doubting you are as untutored as you suggest. I'm sure if you start a thread there will be several replies to inform you of the various ways to touch a woman that both relax her and comfort her, for those would be the basics of how to touch a woman to inflame her passions. 




> 2 If every woman is different and what works on one woman doesn't work on another (a common theme here), how does the father teach his son to touch a.n. other random woman the "right way"?


See my answer above. 

Think back to when you first started to date, or first started to WANT to date. What did you want to know? That's what your son wants to know. Before you can arouse her, you must be able to comfort her. Everything else flows from that foundation.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> My one and only point is that, 9 times of out 10, whatever it is that one person feels is missing - and that is important to them - is god awfully easy to rectify. Yet so many excuses routinely get bandied about (among them, "it's not my job to make you happy"). And you know what? It's not anybody's "job" to make someone happy, you're right.
> 
> But you get what you give in life.


You may think the problem is something God awfully easy to rectify but if your partner isn't doing it, then at best, they don't think it's easy. At worst, for whatever reason, it doesn't make THEM happy to do it regardless of the outcome to you. I have a great example of this in my own marriage. 

I've posted about this issue here on TAM. My husband is incredibly stingy with compliments. A compliment from him is like earning the Gold medal in an event. One only gets those for excellence. He just won't give them unless it's for something that he feels goes above and beyond. This has been a struggle for me for years, after all, as you stated above, this is a relatively easy thing to rectify. Well, he won't. I could have assumed that he's just an a$$hole who doesn't love me because he won't do this one thing to make me happy or I could have worked on my self-confidence enough so as to not depend on his compliments for my happiness. I chose the latter. He's just not 'that' guy and asking him to give compliments that he does not genuinely feel are deserving (to his standards) makes him unhappy. I do not want to cause his unhappiness.

The OP hasn't responded to his thread in a while but I am still curious at to whether he's asked his wife her opinion on the role of sex in their marriage. As with my compliments example above, it might give him some insight into his wife.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is actually another reason I am hesitant to comment on these threads.


Your perspective is important for everyone to hear. I'm sure you are not alone in your beliefs. Thanks for continuing to express your views. 



NobodySpecial said:


> ...which is tantamount to whining. Very unmanly.


I am feeling stereotyped... Whining is generally annoying, no matter the gender.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> Your perspective is important for everyone to hear. I'm sure you are not alone in your beliefs. Thanks for continuing to express your views.
> 
> I am feeling stereotyped... Whining is generally annoying, no matter the gender.


Yes. Very unwomanly. Agreed.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> This is along the lines of what I think whenever someone makes and alpha/beta comment. Don't both sexes find confidence and self-sufficiency in a partner to be attractive?


No. I do not find confident women attractive. I find them terrifying. Yes, that is my insecurity speaking.

The same dynamic affects women but it plays out differently. Some women find confident men terrifying. So they marry the beta guy who helps them feel safe. Problem is, she doesn't find him attractive. So they don't have sex. Which leads to conflict.

Men who find confident women terrifying may well find non-confident women sexually attractive. Does not work that way for most women.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I don't think its "not doing anything" but rather have done everything that they consider acceptable. If U told my wife "have sex with me or I will divorce you", it is quite possible that she would do so. I have had arguments with her about it, and it does get much better - for a few months. I just don't want to have a strong disagreement with my wife that leaves her feeling miserable for a week, every couple of months to keep our sex life going. 

So there is a solution to the lack of sex, but its one I'm not wiling to take because of the other harm it does.

Yup - unmanly, but that is why I do it here anonymously. No person who knows me knows how I feel. 


As far as innate LD or not - what sort of behaviors are you thinking of? Maybe I don't follow your "destabilizing" comment. 

Like many people in this situation I've tried a lot:

Being more romantic - no effect.

Being less affectionate, never asking for sex. Eventually she asks why I seem "withdrawn". I tell her, she says she is sorry but she has been (tired / busy / etc), and nothing changes.

Direct argument. She gets upset for about a week. Sex gets much better for 2 months and she seems happy - then it declines over the next 2 months. Rinse, lather, repeat.....

Getting attention from other women (which I do - I'm quite the sexy devil to many women > ) wife ignores it. Once though told me that she thought I was having affairs, but then decided that I wasn't'. 

Being directly aggressive in bed - she says no.

What other things can I try?

BTW - my wife thinks she is normal and that I am way off the normal curve. 






NobodySpecial said:


> This is actually another reason I am hesitant to comment on these threads. While it is true that an unwillingness to put up with a sexless or low sex marriage is the likeliest way to wake up a wife, there is a lot of other advice given. But instead of doing anything, lots of you guys do nothing instead choosing the "blow off steam" which is tantamount to whining. Very unmanly.
> 
> 
> How would one even know if someone is "innate" LD? How would that supposed LD person know if they have never experienced the behaviors that would increase attraction through debetaizing? It is EASY to call oneself LD when you don't have any other answer.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I don't think its "not doing anything" but rather have done everything that they consider acceptable. If U told my wife "*have sex with me or I will divorce you*", it is quite possible that she would do so. *I have had arguments with her about it*, and it does get much better - for a few months. I just don't want to have a strong disagreement with my wife that leaves her feeling miserable for a week, every couple of months to keep our sex life going.


Well I wish you the best of luck. It is clear that you don't want to understand and apply advice.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lila said:


> I've posted about this issue here on TAM. My husband is incredibly stingy with compliments. A compliment from him is like earning the Gold medal in an event. One only gets those for excellence. He just won't give them unless it's for something that he feels goes above and beyond. This has been a struggle for me for years, after all, as you stated above, this is a relatively easy thing to rectify. Well, he won't. I could have assumed that he's just an a$$hole who doesn't love me because he won't do this one thing to make me happy or I could have worked on my self-confidence enough so as to not depend on his compliments for my happiness. I chose the latter. He's just not 'that' guy and asking him to give compliments that he does not genuinely feel are deserving (to his standards) makes him unhappy. I do not want to cause his unhappiness.
> 
> The OP hasn't responded to his thread in a while but I am still curious at to whether he's asked his wife her opinion on the role of sex in their marriage. As with my compliments example above, it might give him some insight into his wife.


Right. And if "words of affirmation" were at the top of your list, there'd likely be a huge problem. But this doesn't seem to be the case, so it's fairly easy to chalk up to an annoyance. My wife is also much like your husband - compliments are few and far between. I wish there were more, but as it's not at the top of my list for things I require, it's not a huge deal.

However, touch is at the top of my list, as well as acts of service. I can combine the two and can honestly say that I feel the most loved and cared about when my partner wants me sexually. I'm not alone, nor is this solely the domain of men (though I think it's probably slightly weighted in that way...)

So that is where I (and OP, and a few others) are coming from. The topic at hand IS where I/we give and receive love from our partners - it's at the top of our list.

Other people want a listener, or a cuddler, or somebody to verbally affirm them regularly, or to buy them gifts, or do things for them or even just say "I love you" throughout the day. When one of those people is with somebody who does not come through with what is at the TOP of their list, then you arrive at our perspective.

The perspective of "This is what I most respond to, and they know it, yet can't be bothered to come through with such a seemingly easy thing." If somebody requires words of affirmation, and they're married to your husband (or my wife), they'll feel empty and unloved. And it's not entirely because those people won't DO those things, it's because they can't bother to make an effort to understand what it's so important to you. It's the belittling of one's needs that's most hurtful.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> You still don't know how to touch a woman? I don't mean that as a derogatory type question, I'm doubting you are as untutored as you suggest. I'm sure if you start a thread there will be several replies to inform you of the various ways to touch a woman that both relax her and comfort her, for those would be the basics of how to touch a woman to inflame her passions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


None taken. However, your answer smacks somewhat of the "if I have to explain it you, you will never get it" approach. 

I knew exactly how and when and where to touch my late wife because we'd spent years figuring it out. Applying the same processes to other women is less successful, especially when they won't give feedback. And when we first met, it was all about excitement, and nothing whatsoever to do with comfort. That came much, much later.

It may also be totally unhelpful to suggest going back to the start of the relationship because the motivations of both partners at the beginning may be totally different. The feedback you got may be a dead end. And if you try to repeat what worked back then, because that time is dead and gone, it doesn't work any more. Then add in a decade of trying stuff largely at random (because let's face it most men and women are not going to approach this systematically) with no feedback. Would you really describe this as a way of providing a useful body of knowledge to start teaching someone else from?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> *So, 25,510 took 14 surveys over the period between 1989 to 2012 (23 years). The participants age range: 18 - 89 years old (!!!!!) and what that cohort needed for maximum relationship happiness ON AVERAGE, was sex once per week. (What have we really learned here?!!)*


If I am not getting tail at least once a week when I am 89, I am leaving my W!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> This is along the lines of what I think whenever someone makes and alpha/beta comment. Don't both sexes find confidence and self-sufficiency in a partner to be attractive? Just like both sexes find whining to be unattractive?


Honestly, I think this to be a genuine gender difference in many people. I don't think confidence is a requirement for many men where it is pretty necessary for attraction in many women.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> How do you know what works for most women? This is another thing that puzzles me when I hear it.


You ask the question "don't most men and women find confident people attractive?' and then you complain when you are answered with a generality. What kind of answer did you expect to get when you asked a question about men and women in general?

Are you suggesting that in your view most women do find non-confident men equally attractive as confident men? As it happens, I think you are correct that most men and most women prefer to be with a confident partner.

Where I sense some disagreement is among the population of men and women who do not choose to be with confident partners. I suggest (with no academic studies to back it up) that a large portion of the men find their non-confident partners sexually attractive. As opposed to the women who are with non-confident partners, who I suggest mostly do NOT find their partner attractive but are with him for other reasons. Which is not a problem in itself, except for my suspicion that most of the women in that position try to hide the truth about how they feel for as long as possible.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

PAPS,

I realize that you have had countless discussions with your W about the lack of sex. But I wonder what, besides talking, have you tried to do to promote change? From your initial post I can see that she pulled a bit of bait and switch on you early on...and you accepted that. I don't think it is too late to change the dynamics, but you may have to do some things that you have not so far been prepared to do. 

She clearly finds the act pleasurable and she enjoys the glow and cuddling afterwards. This doesn't appear to be an activity that is painful for her and something to be avoided. From what you describe, it seems it is something that doesn't come to mind as something very important for her except maybe once or twice a month. From your posts I can't really tell if she is LD just for you or frankly even LD at all. 

Clearly, the ways that you have so far approached the subject haven't made an impact. Maybe there is something about the way you lead things in the bedroom that doesn't work for her. 

You've accepted her past rejections, complained about it and then actually rejected her advances one time. But what else have you actually done to promote change? She is happy with the status quo and hasn't ever experienced any consequences so why should she change now?

Have you tried counseling? Maybe a professional spelling things out for her would have an impact. 

Have you read MMSLP? Have you tried some of the techniques in the book? I wonder if you have tried "gaming" her more during the day, teasing, touching, etc.? Creating sexual tension? Seduction? 

Tried to become more physically attractive? Improved your sex rank? Working out, etc.? Dread?

If she had the opportunity to sleep next to Channing Tatum every night, do you think she'd be turning him down too or banging his brains out to keep him there?

Have you ever told her I have to have sex with you every 3 days. If I can't get that on Day 4 and every day thereafter until we have sex the consequence will be...(not fulfilling whatever needs she has that you are fulfilling on a daily basis)

It sucks to have to do this, and you may feel like an a$$hole doing it, but if you don't prioritize your needs then you get what you get.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I *knew* there was a lesson in there somewhere... :smile2:


 Kind of reminds me of this lol










Worse case if things go sexless at 89, I still have at least 10 more years left with Legos!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Lol...I've missed you Ellis. :grin2:


Haha, I take a week or so off from TAM only to come back to you causing all kinds of trouble here


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
then explain it. Many people have many opinions on this - what are you suggesting? Maybe I'm conflating your suggestions with other suggestions and ending up with a mishmash that doesn't make sense.

I feel like I've at various times followed the advice that I have heard except for divorcing. 



NobodySpecial said:


> Well I wish you the best of luck. It is clear that you don't want to understand and apply advice.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> then explain it. Many people have many opinions on this - what are you suggesting? Maybe I'm conflating your suggestions with other suggestions and ending up with a mishmash that doesn't make sense.
> 
> I feel like I've at various times followed the advice that I have heard except for divorcing.


I'm getting the sense you're getting the "If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand" vibe too. 

The other thing is that often the advice on sites like this is very, very contradictory.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Right. And if "words of affirmation" were at the top of your list, there'd likely be a huge problem. But this doesn't seem to be the case, so it's fairly easy to chalk up to an annoyance. My wife is also much like your husband - compliments are few and far between. I wish there were more, but as it's not at the top of my list for things I require, it's not a huge deal.
> 
> However, touch is at the top of my list, as well as acts of service. I can combine the two and can honestly say that I feel the most loved and cared about when my partner wants me sexually. I'm not alone, nor is this solely the domain of men (though I think it's probably slightly weighted in that way...)
> 
> ...


I think you missed the point of my post entirely. It's neither here nor there but Words of Affirmation, in conjunction with Quality Time, are my main love languages. The point of the post was to reiterate to you and the OP to manage your expectations. 

Your spouses are who they are. As you said, it's incredibly hurtful to have a spouse who doesn't make the effort to love you the way you wish to be loved. If you choose to stay married, then stop basing your happiness on what they do or fail to do for you. Try to understand why they do what they do and work around those why's to get _some_ of your needs met. At the same time, stop relying on your spouse to make you happy. Find your own happiness. It's not perfect but it beats the continued disappointment when your spouse repeatedly behaves in a way counter to what you believe is right and loving.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> You and I have gone over this argument several times before and suffice it to say, we'll have to agree to disagree.


I'm not trying to beat you into submission until you agree (I know that won't happen).

I'm thinking that we have a communication issue involving definition of terms and I'm just trying to pin that down.

That may come off as just disagreeing, but I'm intending it in a "if this is true than does it mean....?" kind of way.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

The tough thing about this particular problem is that there is no single answer that fits all situations. It's got to be extremely frustrating.

I'm truly blessed with a wonderful wife who "gets it", and I can't be thankful enough. My heart goes out for those dealing with this kind of problem, and I hope you can find an answer that actually works.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Maybe the reason I see this issue differently is because I don't think it's anyone's else responsibility to ensure one's happiness. Husbands and wives should be able to find that happiness within themselves without relying on others. Let me explain. I didn't marry my husband in order for him to _make_ me happy and I know I didn't get married just to have the added responsibility of making him happy. I was already a happy person. I married him to share in MY happiness and vice versa. It goes back to compatibility.


While I certainly agree that we should not be dependent on others for their own happiness, I think it’s naïve to interpret this as meaning that our partner has no need to care about our happiness.

If it were the case that we are entirely responsible for our own happiness, then it would make no difference at all who we married; our partner would have no impact on our happiness.

I believe I have seen posts where you are complaining about things your spouse does (not to pick on you specifically, we all do this). Why? If it’s not his responsibility to make you happy, why should he have to do anything other than exactly what he wants to do?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> then explain it. Many people have many opinions on this - what are you suggesting? Maybe I'm conflating your suggestions with other suggestions and ending up with a mishmash that doesn't make sense.
> 
> I feel like I've at various times followed the advice that I have heard except for divorcing.


Honestly, it is not worth my time. You don't understand the advice you have been given. Thus my hesitance to engage in these threads.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> While I certainly agree that we should not be dependent on others for their own happiness, I think it’s naïve to interpret this as meaning that our partner has no need to care about our happiness.
> 
> If it were the case that we are entirely responsible for our own happiness, then it would make no difference at all who we married; our partner would have no impact on our happiness.
> 
> I believe I have seen posts where you are complaining about things your spouse does (not to pick on you specifically, we all do this). Why? If it’s not his responsibility to make you happy, why should he have to do anything other than exactly what he wants to do?


I would prefer to say JOIN IN happiness to MAKE happy. DH and I are going through a rough patch right now. (Money, work ... lack thereof, and some other stuff). My main objection is his seeming disinterest in spending time with me or the family as a whole. I can tell him this. And I did. Like due diligence. But if I want him to want to hang out with me, I have to be someone who is fun to hang out with.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> You may think the problem is something God awfully easy to rectify but if your partner isn't doing it, then at best, they don't think it's easy. At worst, for whatever reason, it doesn't make THEM happy to do it regardless of the outcome to you. I have a great example of this in my own marriage.
> 
> I've posted about this issue here on TAM. My husband is incredibly stingy with compliments. A compliment from him is like earning the Gold medal in an event. One only gets those for excellence. He just won't give them unless it's for something that he feels goes above and beyond. This has been a struggle for me for years, after all, as you stated above, this is a relatively easy thing to rectify. Well, he won't. I could have assumed that he's just an a$$hole who doesn't love me because he won't do this one thing to make me happy or I could have worked on my self-confidence enough so as to not depend on his compliments for my happiness. I chose the latter. He's just not 'that' guy and asking him to give compliments that he does not genuinely feel are deserving (to his standards) makes him unhappy. I do not want to cause his unhappiness.
> 
> The OP hasn't responded to his thread in a while but I am still curious at to whether he's asked his wife her opinion on the role of sex in their marriage. As with my compliments example above, it might give him some insight into his wife.


This post really helps clarify your point.

I was about to say something about how I would do anything to make my wife happy that didn't involve great pain, depth or a sacrifice way out of proportion to the perceived benefit).

But then I reflected for a moment about something that my wife would like me to do, which I could do and yet I don't. I often drive more aggressively than my wife would prefer. I know that she doesn't like it but I do it anyway (because I'm right! g-damn it!)

But I'm pretty sure that I'd change my behavior if I thought it was THAT important to her. I guess that's the problem; determining what's THAT important to your spouse. 

If compliments made you very happy and my moral code called for them to be given sparingly, I suspect I'd violate my moral code to make you happy if it mattered THAT much to you. But, then again, maybe not. If it mattered THAT much to you and I didn't do it, I wouldn't be surprised if you stopped doing something that mattered THAT much for me.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> This is along the lines of what I think whenever someone makes and alpha/beta comment. Don't both sexes find confidence and self-sufficiency in a partner to be attractive? Just like both sexes find whining to be unattractive?


I'm not so sure we can go gender neutral on this. Particularly from the perspective of sexual attractiveness.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think you missed the point of my post entirely. It's neither here nor there but Words of Affirmation, in conjunction with Quality Time, are my main love languages. The point of the post was to reiterate to you and the OP to manage your expectations.
> 
> Your spouses are who they are. As you said, it's incredibly hurtful to have a spouse who doesn't make the effort to love you the way you wish to be loved. If you choose to stay married, then stop basing your happiness on what they do or fail to do for you. Try to understand why they do what they do and work around those why's to get _some_ of your needs met. At the same time, stop relying on your spouse to make you happy. Find your own happiness. It's not perfect but it beats the continued disappointment when your spouse repeatedly behaves in a way counter to what you believe is right and loving.


AH HAH! That's it. That's the message.

"If you're not getting your needs met by your spouse, you've asked them to meet your needs and they won't, then give up and do the best you can by talking care of your own happiness or get divorced".

I think OP was looking for better than that, but you're right, that's what it is probably going to come down to.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I do read what you wrote, for example:

QUOTE ON
My husband started in much the same way the OP did. When I objected to masturbation, he lied and hid. He did it for two reasons, he later admitted. One was self preservation, my not getting hurt and mad AT him. But the other was not hurting me. 

Then he finally decided, hey wait this is who I am. If that is not ok, I don't want to spend the rest of my life hiding and lying. I do this. I have always done this. I am not Catholic, and I do not share your concerns about it. Yes, I am attracted to other women. Yes I look at them to aid in the plumbing activities. I have chosen you OVER them, but that does not mean I am changing everything about myself. I don't remember change all your habits to suit your wife in our wedding vows. That was tough to hear. But WAY better than the alternative, not hearing. 

We did go on to have very honest conversations about where our ideas and opinions differed. Very educational. Oh, usenet was around at the time. Doug Anderson, if you are out there, you helped me understand too.
QUOTE OFF

The only step in that that I haven't followed is to specifically threaten divorce. That would be a lie because I won't actually divorce my wife over lack of sex - there is too much else important in our relationship, and I'm not willing to make an idle threat.

Given a choice of (likely) divorce or living with a very limited sex life, I'll take the limited sex life.

What am I not understanding?






NobodySpecial said:


> Honestly, it is not worth my time. You don't understand the advice you have been given. Thus my hesitance to engage in these threads.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I do read what you wrote, for example:
> 
> QUOTE ON
> ...


You are still getting in fights with her about it, as if talk will solve anything for you. You still see what my DH did as threaten divorce. You are ok with her giving you sex after you read her the riot act. Which lasts as long as guilt can. Which is not very long. Read Badsanta and Mem. And then come back and complain more. Reticence renewed with fervor.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> None taken. However, your answer smacks somewhat of the "if I have to explain it you, you will never get it" approach.


I suppose I am a bit guilty of that, though unintentionally. 




> I knew exactly how and when and where to touch my late wife because we'd spent years figuring it out. Applying the same processes to other women is less successful, especially when they won't give feedback. And when we first met, it was all about excitement, and nothing whatsoever to do with comfort. That came much, much later.



Unless we're talking about one of those wild hookups we read about in penthouse forum or literotica, I honestly believe that any woman you're going to date as a mature fellow is going to need to feel comfortable with you before she's going to want to get naked with you. wouldn't that be a logical jumping off point for any young teenager to learn?




> It may also be totally unhelpful to suggest going back to the start of the relationship because the motivations of both partners at the beginning may be totally different. The feedback you got may be a dead end. And if you try to repeat what worked back then, because that time is dead and gone, it doesn't work any more. Then add in a decade of trying stuff largely at random (because let's face it most men and women are not going to approach this systematically) with no feedback. Would you really describe this as a way of providing a useful body of knowledge to start teaching someone else from?



I think you're being a bit obtuse at this point. But for the sake of education I'll try to explain what I meant.

"Son, don't touch her breasts until you've been making out for a while. Most women don't like to have their breasts touched unless they are aroused at least a little."

This is the kind of information I was specifically referring to when I suggest OP begin discussing sex with his kids. This is the kind of stuff the young and newly slightly sexually active needs to know.

"Son, every woman is different in how they like to be touched sexually and the hard part is there are far too many females who won't tell you how they want you to touch them. Pat this and Circle around that will never work. Your best bet is to experiment with her and just ask her to nod if she likes what you're doing and wants you to keep doing it."

I've been married for 30 years so it's been a LONG time since I've had a new sexual partner but I can't imagine keeping my arousal building if I have to explain how to be touched at each stage of nakedness.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> What about you, Buddy? Is a confident, capable woman more attractive to you than a woman who might be described as "beta"?


Great question. I had to think.

Primarily I was responding to my strong belief that women are *much* more attracted to confident, capable women than otherwise.

My wife is astonishingly capable and confident in her work (although not as confident as she should be). She's capable and confident enough in non-work areas. So that didn't scare me off.

If she was very incapable and insecure, that would be a negative.

Otherwise, it hasn't been a key factor for me.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> No. I do not find confident women attractive. I find them terrifying. Yes, that is my insecurity speaking.
> 
> The same dynamic affects women but it plays out differently. Some women find confident men terrifying. So they marry the beta guy who helps them feel safe. Problem is, she doesn't find him attractive. So they don't have sex. Which leads to conflict.
> 
> Men who find confident women terrifying may well find non-confident women sexually attractive. Does not work that way for most women.


This makes me whacko.

It reminds me of the game "Tether-Ball". The ball is connected to a rope which is connected [tethered] to a pole. Standing and facing each other, the two players compete, each trying to hit the ball causing it to wind up totally onto the pole. Whoever winds up the rope onto the pole wins.

My head is the ball !


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> *"Son, don't touch her breasts until you've been making out for a while. Most women don't like to have their breasts touched unless they are aroused at least a little."*
> 
> This is the kind of information I was specifically referring to when I suggest OP begin discussing sex with his kids. This is the kind of stuff the young and newly slightly sexually active needs to know.
> 
> ...


Yes, you respectfully may be forgetting what it was like to be a teenager>

Perhaps either my experience before marriage was too limited or I was a totally oblivious clod (could be but I honestly don't really think so). I do not think there was ever a time while dating when it was time to touch beyond a hand hold when the female was NOT, at least a bit turned on. It was part of the process. 

Proviso, never lived with a women before marriage. And of course, I never just grabbed a boob walking down the street or across a room at a party:smile2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> While I certainly agree that we should not be dependent on others for their own happiness, I think it’s naïve to interpret this as meaning that our partner has no need to care about our happiness.
> 
> If it were the case that we are entirely responsible for our own happiness, then it would make no difference at all who we married; our partner would have no impact on our happiness.
> 
> I believe I have seen posts where you are complaining about things your spouse does (not to pick on you specifically, we all do this). Why? If it’s not his responsibility to make you happy, why should he have to do anything other than exactly what he wants to do?


He DOES DO exactly what he wants to do and always has. And as unusual as this may sound to many, I view that as a positive and not a negative. The man that I've known for 21 years may have quirks and behaviors that I don't necessarily agree with but I can honestly say he _is_ genuine, warts and all. When he says 'I'm doing my best', he's doing his best, however it's his best within the confines of his comfort zones and personal boundaries. 

And as far as it making no difference at all who we marry assuming we take responsibility for ensuring our own happiness.....I believe compatibility and aligned priorities play a bigger role in determining the success (or failure) of most marriages than the level of effort we put into ensuring our partner's happiness. Going back to my example with my ex....We were two peas in a pod in everything EXCEPT sex. Had we chosen to get married and I had to make it my responsibility to ensure his happiness, I would have ended up resentful towards him. Nothing, and I mean nothing, short of his changing his views about sex would have resulted in a LTM between us. But we were oh so perfect for each other in every other way.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> AH HAH! That's it. That's the message.
> 
> "If you're not getting your needs met by your spouse, you've asked them to meet your needs and they won't, then give up and do the best you can by talking care of your own happiness or get divorced".
> 
> *I think OP was looking for better than that*, but you're right, that's what it is probably going to come down to.


What would you suggest to the OP and others in similar situation such as Alex?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> And as far as it making no difference at all who we marry assuming we take responsibility for ensuring our own happiness.....I believe compatibility and aligned priorities play a bigger role in determining the success (or failure) of most marriages than the level of effort we put into ensuring our partner's happiness.


If it's unlikely that you or your partner will put much, if any, effort into making their partner happy, then I'm sure the first option is preferred.

The second option has both the greater upside and downside potential.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's a difference whether they're confident by nature or confident because they have the money and corner office... Thank naturally confident ones I'm fine with - the corner office crowd... Not sure.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> What would you suggest to the OP and others in similar situation such as Alex?


Assuming that he's not willing to destabilize the relationship (which I'd prefer to see, just on principle), then pretty much exactly what you recommend.

It had seemed to me that you considered not expecting anything from your partner and just "going it alone" to be the ideal state.

I thought that you were saying that this is the best that can be expected in any relationship. As if it was silly to even ask one's partner to meet their needs. I didn't fully realize that you'd given that up and proposed this as the best method of dealing with it. 

It also makes some sense since I recall that during a post-motherhood dry stretch you seemed to expect your husband to just deal with it and wait it out. I wonder if that experience had a role in his subsequent approach to your needs.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> What about you, Buddy? Is a confident, capable woman more attractive to you than a woman who might be described as "beta"?


I'm not Buddy (obviously) but my answer may be of interest so I'll provide it.

I wouldn't want to be involved with a whiny clingy woman, so I would say that confidence and capability would be a positive, and possibly a requirement, for a woman that I would have a relationship with.

But confidence and capability doesn't make a woman more *sexually *attractive to me. That is based primarily on appearance and secondly on voice and other physical behavior.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lila said:


> I think you missed the point of my post entirely. It's neither here nor there but Words of Affirmation, in conjunction with Quality Time, are my main love languages. The point of the post was to reiterate to you and the OP to manage your expectations.
> 
> Your spouses are who they are. As you said, it's incredibly hurtful to have a spouse who doesn't make the effort to love you the way you wish to be loved. If you choose to stay married, then stop basing your happiness on what they do or fail to do for you. Try to understand why they do what they do and work around those why's to get _some_ of your needs met. At the same time, stop relying on your spouse to make you happy. Find your own happiness. It's not perfect but it beats the continued disappointment when your spouse repeatedly behaves in a way counter to what you believe is right and loving.


Excellent post. Funny enough, this is how I now live my life. At one point, I was the OP. So I fully agree with you.

I guess my posts in this thread are more venting and/or stating how I feel things SHOULD be.

I honestly believe that when you love somebody, and know what their love requirements are, you should go to great lengths to deliver on them.

So people like your husband, my wife, OP's wife, Richard's wife, etc. - fail miserably at that. Which sucks, and is hurtful. It leaves us all sitting here wondering why the heck don't our spouses have the desire to meet our needs, the way we want to meet theirs?

Maybe somebody like that will read this thread, and my posts, and realize they should do more for their spouse.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

IME, people will just do what they do, what they want to do. What will make them happy.

I've never had a guy change himself or go out of his way, doing something that made him unhappy in order to make me happy, and have learned that there's no point in expecting them to.

If you marry someone just because you find them hot, what reason do you have to believe they are going to become giving or work towards *your* happiness?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> IME, people will just do what they do, what they want to do.
> 
> I've never had a guy change himself or go out of his way, doing something that made him unhappy in order to make me happy, and have learned that there's no point in expecting them to.
> 
> If you marry someone just because you find them hot, what reason do you have to believe they are going to become giving or work towards *your* happiness.


Expect? No. But it can and does happen. But it is not a lifestyle change. It happens in small chunks.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Expect? No. But it can and does happen. But it is not a lifestyle change. It happens in small chunks.


Sure, it can happen. But what are the odds? And is it worth being bitter at someone for being who they are, rather than what you prefer them to be?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Sure, it can happen. But what are the odds? And is it worth being bitter at someone for being who they are, rather than what you prefer them to be?


Yah. Not so much. One of the key things that I learned was acceptance is the most important part of marriage.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> It's hard for me to understand how you can disentangle a trait that you require in a sexual partner (confidence, capability) from your feeling of attraction to the person. How does that work?


That's pretty easy. All I have to do is look at a picture of the person and I can tell if she is sexually attractive. Of course there are outliers like Fran Drescher who is/was beautiful but had a terrible dialect that would turn me off, so maybe a short video with sound would be necessary in some cases.

That doesn't mean that I would be interested in a relationship with someone just based on a picture, because there are other requirements for that. Sexual attractiveness is necessary but not sufficient.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> What about you, Buddy? Is a confident, capable woman more attractive to you than a woman who might be described as "beta"?


I was thinking about this, and part of the problem, what exactly constitutes confident/capable? What one person may consider confident I may consider arrogant, etc...

There isn't one trait in particular that I would consider a deal breaker (except for smoking, automatic turn off), but obviously some weigh more heavily than others. For example, I don't care for someone who complains a lot or is a negative person, whether they are confident/capable or not. I am a rather confident person, so I don't feel like I need someone who matches my confidence, and to an extent that is why my W and I match up so well as I think my "confidence/outlook" helps to balance off some of the insecurities she may have.

The minimum confidence I would like to see in a female, if I ask you what you would like to eat, don't tell me you are not hungry, and then when I show up with food you start eating mine issed:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Assuming that he's not willing to destabilize the relationship (which I'd prefer to see, just on principle), then pretty much exactly what you recommend.
> 
> It had seemed to me that you considered not expecting anything from your partner and just "going it alone" to be the ideal state.
> 
> I thought that you were saying that this is the best that can be expected in any relationship. As if it was silly to even ask one's partner to meet their needs. I didn't fully realize that you'd given that up and proposed this as the best method of dealing with it.


Communicating one's needs IS the most important thing one can do in a relationship. However continuously asking someone to meet a need that they, for whatever reason, won't meet is a problem. Causes misery all of the way round. I've been on both sides of the argument. The asker wonders why their partner doesn't love them enough to meet their expectations. The askee wonders why their partner can't love them exactly as they are.

You call it 'giving up'. I call it stopping the insanity - doing the same thing over and over again expecting change. 



Buddy400 said:


> It also makes some sense since I recall that during a post-motherhood dry stretch you seemed to expect your husband to just deal with it and wait it out. I wonder if that experience had a role in his subsequent approach to your needs.


Are you suggesting that 'I had it coming'? That my husband won't compliment me the way that I want because of something that happened over 10 years ago? Hmmm, could be, but then again his record has been less than stellar and I don't hold that against him. I would lose all respect for him if that were the case. However, I don't think that's it at all. Our relationship dynamic has been this way for a long time. 

On one hand, we recognize our partner's limitations. It's a take it or leave relationship. Taking it means managing our expectations regarding the issue, not bringing it up over and over, and relying on ourselves for happiness. 

On the other hand, we're more empathetic towards each other. We can step into the other's shoes and recognize that our request may be causing our partner unhappiness. We don't want happiness at the expense of their unhappiness.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Yeah, I was thinking this morning that the question wasn't well-defined. Rethinking it and may start another thread.


Would be an interesting thread, especially to see the different opinions on what one considers confident/capable.

For me it is a combination of personality and physical appearance. I have seen women who catch my attention immediately just based on their looks, but once you hear them speak, yuck ... Likewise there are women who's personality just makes them that much more beautiful. If you can find someone with both (I definitely lucked out) ...


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Lila, I agree about communication. Back to my original post though that started this somewhat hijacked post, I did not mention communication at all. It was more about knowing what makes your partner happy and just, as Nike would say, doing it. My example was that in all our years together, when I was rejected (sometimes that rejection was a quick NO, other times there would be cuddling and snuggling-which leads to arousal in me especially when it has been weeks since sex) before I would get not tonight. It was me more wondering outloud, hmmm, she can tell I am really aroused but she says no. Yet, all those times through the years she has never said, you know what, I can see/feel that you are really in the mood and I know how important this is for you, I am going to give you a helping hand. I would never EXPECT it to happen all the time, or even most of the time. But every so often, just maybe she might want to do that for me-YES, it would be FOR ME and maybe mean nothing for her except knowing she has made me happy. FOR ME, it would mean a lot and I can say I enjoy doing things for my wife that I get little pleasure from-WHY, because I like making her happy, I want her to happy. Her happiness is my happiness. I have never been a begger for sex, I have pouted-there is no doubt about that. BUT, I have pouted only after it has been a couple weeks, back when I was initiating. I have never had sex with my wife on a Wed, then made a play for it again on Saturday of the same week and pouted. I am fully aware that her need is less than mine, so in the event I would even try again that soon after, I would never pout I would just be ok and let it be. I guess I am beta because of my personality, I like to think of myself as a thoughtful, considerate, loving and accepting husband.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

PAPS18 said:


> I have never had sex with my wife on a Wed, then made a play for it again on Saturday of the same week and pouted. I am fully aware that her need is less than mine, so in the event I would even try again that soon after, I would never pout I would just be ok and let it be. I guess I am beta because of my personality,* I like to think of myself as a thoughtful, considerate, loving and accepting husband.*


Do you mind me asking, based on the bolded, would you say the same thing about your W? What I mean, it sounds like you are doing everything you can to make her happy (nothing wrong with that), but do you feel that she is doing the same for you? I would guess not based on the lack of sex issues, but would be curious how you view it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I would say the exact same thing - both looks and personality are very important. Even if I only have the beginnings of an understanding of their personality at first, I think I need more than physical appearance.


If all I needed was physical appearance I got that covered on my own, all I need is a mirror and my blue steel look >


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> Lila, I agree about communication. Back to my original post though that started this somewhat hijacked post, I did not mention communication at all. It was more about knowing what makes your partner happy and just, as Nike would say, doing it. My example was that in all our years together, when I was rejected (sometimes that rejection was a quick NO, other times there would be cuddling and snuggling-which leads to arousal in me especially when it has been weeks since sex) before I would get not tonight. It was me more wondering outloud, hmmm, she can tell I am really aroused but she says no. Yet, all those times through the years she has never said, you know what, I can see/feel that you are really in the mood and I know how important this is for you, I am going to give you a helping hand. I would never EXPECT it to happen all the time, or even most of the time. But every so often, just maybe she might want to do that for me-YES, it would be FOR ME and maybe mean nothing for her except knowing she has made me happy. FOR ME, it would mean a lot and I can say I enjoy doing things for my wife that I get little pleasure from-WHY, because I like making her happy, I want her to happy. Her happiness is my happiness. I have never been a begger for sex, I have pouted-there is no doubt about that. BUT, I have pouted only after it has been a couple weeks, back when I was initiating. I have never had sex with my wife on a Wed, then made a play for it again on Saturday of the same week and pouted. I am fully aware that her need is less than mine, so in the event I would even try again that soon after, I would never pout I would just be ok and let it be. I guess I am beta because of my personality, I like to think of myself as a thoughtful, considerate, loving and accepting husband.


Paps, I asked this question earlier but it my have gotten lost in the TJ (sorry about that btw).

How does your wife view sex in marriage? e.g. Is is something you do strictly to connect emotionally/intimately?? Is it something we do to meet a biological need?? Is it something we do to meet a marital requirement?? Is it a recreational/fun activity?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> You are a thoughtful, considerate, loving and accepting husband. The alpha/beta thing is just a construct that does not live in the real world, IMO.


I disagree 5000%. Pouting is "beta". Wanting her to just do it without regard to whether or not he is lighting her fire is beta. And REALLY unattractive. I feel bad for his wife.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> So, you think that a woman's personality does not affect your feeling of sexual attraction towards her at all? In other words, you could have sex with a beautiful woman with a pleasing voice no matter how off-putting her personality?


I wouldn't actually *do *it if she had a terrible personality, but I would still find her attractive.



OliviaG said:


> If you think so, I think you're mistaken but of course I don't know. To go to extremes, what if this physically sexy woman with the sexy voice turned out to have some mental incapacity that gave her the personality of an 8 year old? Still no problem sleeping with her (but of course would not want a relationship outside of sex with her)?


Again I would avoid that situation, in this case for ethical reasons, but it wouldn't make her sexually unattractive to me.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> You are a thoughtful, considerate, loving and accepting husband. The alpha/beta thing is just a construct that does not live in the real world, IMO.


This is complete bull. Many people think that it has to be one or the other, but actually should involve both. OP's fear initiating because he's coddling to his wife's sexual aversion is a complete beta move and not healthy at all. I started initiating with my wife after several decades and now we have some type of sexual relationship 5-6 times per week. The alpha stuff is real and works. But she still needs beta for the comfort. It can't be one over the other.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Glad you are not my wife NS, I think I COULD divorce you!! LOL. I doubt there is anything I would type that you would agree with or give me any positive feedback. I am not proud to say I pouted, but at the same time, when your wife says no to you time and time again, it is very hard NOT to get angry and pout (after all, sex is the only part of marriage you can't get from someone else-you can get companionship, you can get emotional closeness, you can get thrills, you can get sympathy, but you can't get sex). I don't do it any longer, have not for many years, I think it (sex) just doesn't matter as much to me as I get older. 

To answer questions-my wife is a great Mom to my kids, a great wife overall but I do think she is a bit self centered. I have always thought this and I see it from her parents and siblings as well-they tend to look at things from only their eyes (her Dad had affairs but her Mom always took him back for example-I imagine her Mom is much like she is sexually, they are too old now for it to matter). She has a lot of positive qualities about her-thus why I married her. We did not live together before marriage but when we had time alone, she was far more aggressive than she has been the last 15 years for sure. Course that coincides with the arrival of kids, and no doubt that has become her #1 priority. 

Lila, how does she view it, I KNOW she believes it is a connection because she can feel it-we bond closer after we do it. BUT, it is just not something that she believes is necessary often-ie, not a top priority. That is why I don't think scheduled sex would work for us because something would/could always bump sex out of the "to do" list. So not really sure how to answer you-she knows I want it more than she does-she believe ALL guys want it as much as they can get it, most women (except *****s in her mind) are like her. She is VERY old fashioned in her beliefs.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> Glad you are not my wife NS, I think I COULD divorce you!! LOL. I doubt there is anything I would type that you would *agree with* or give me any* positive feedback*.


Is that what you want? You seemed to come here for advice. But you don't really want that. You want a magic pill to get your wife to screw you despite not wanting to.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

No, NS, I asked for opinions, but you are always SOOOO negative towards me, it is like you personally know me and can't stand me?? I guess I just don't get it. The criticism you have given is constant, and I get it, you think I am a doormat/loser. Just not sure why you keep commenting honestly, I get it-so move on already when it comes to addressing me. Is there an ignore with this site, if so I need to find it because this much I know-your husband is PERFECT, and I am beta loser so I am ready to move away from it. You know what I am saying.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Is that what you want? You seemed to come here for advice. But you don't really want that. You want a magic pill to get your wife to screw you despite not wanting to.


I honestly think OP is maybe just here venting more than anything. He has stated he has no plans on shaking things up or leaving his wife (basically accepted things as is, nothing is going to change), so I really don't think with that there is any advice to give except maybe to just talk things out and let him get some things off his chest (maybe I am misinterpreting OP?),


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> Lila, how does she view it, I KNOW she believes it is a connection because she can feel it-we bond closer after we do it. BUT, it is just not something that she believes is necessary often-ie, not a top priority. That is why I don't think scheduled sex would work for us because something would/could always bump sex out of the "to do" list. So not really sure how to answer you-she knows I want it more than she does-she believe ALL guys want it as much as they can get it, most women (except *****s in her mind) are like her. She is VERY old fashioned in her beliefs.


So how do you view sex? Do you see it as an intimacy building activity? Is a biological need? A fun recreational activity?


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Is that what you want? You seemed to come here for advice. But you don't really want that. You want a magic pill to get your wife to screw you despite not wanting to.


He wants his wife to desire him, yet he intentionally doesn't show sexual desire to her. Does he think sex should not be a function of desire? His "I want change but I'm not willing to do anything to upset my wife" vibe not only apparent here, but I'm sure his wife knows this as well, as she's scared the man from even initiating with her. Very emasculating, which he seems fine with.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I honestly think OP is maybe just here venting more than anything. He has stated he has no plans on shaking things up or leaving his wife (basically accepted things as is, nothing is going to change), so I really don't think with that there is any advice to give except maybe to just talk things out and let him get some things off his chest (maybe I am misinterpreting OP?),


See I disagree. Taking is akin to pouting. If he did some decent reading on the 180, improving HIMSELF for himself, he would come off as WAY more attractive. Confidence. Manliness. You don't need to think about this, because you do it naturally. All he has to do is look at your joking style to get a small sense. Read MEM and BadSanta for instance.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Capster said:


> He wants his wife to desire him, yet he intentionally doesn't show sexual desire to her. Does he think sex should not be a function of desire? His "I want change but I'm not willing to do anything to upset my wife" vibe not only apparent here, but I'm sure his wife knows this as well, as she's scared the man from even initiating with her. Very emasculating, which he seems fine with.


Allowing himself to be emasculated is part and parcel with what is unattractively unmanly about it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> See I disagree. Taking is akin to pouting. If he did some decent reading on the 180, improving HIMSELF for himself, he would come off as WAY more attractive. Confidence. Manliness. You don't need to think about this, because you do it naturally. All he has to do is look at your joking style to get a small sense. Read MEM and BadSanta for instance.


I think we are basically saying the same thing. There are many things here that have been suggested (180, etc...) that I get the impression the OP might not be willing to do, so that is where it is hard to understand at times the point of this thread (so thinking it was more to vent then to find an actual solution)


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
that is very sad. There are people of both genders who will really make a big effort to make their partners happy. 



always_alone said:


> snip
> 
> I've never had a guy change himself or go out of his way, doing something that made him unhappy in order to make me happy, and have learned that there's no point in expecting them to.
> snip


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
interesting. For me sexual attractiveness also requires behavior / personality. 

I can look at a picture and find it attractive but that is because I am imagining a personality that I would also find attractive. 

To me sexual attractiveness is more about how someone acts than about how they look - though of course appearance does matter.




tech-novelist said:


> That's pretty easy. All I have to do is look at a picture of the person and I can tell if she is sexually attractive. Of course there are outliers like Fran Drescher who is/was beautiful but had a terrible dialect that would turn me off, so maybe a short video with sound would be necessary in some cases.
> 
> That doesn't mean that I would be interested in a relationship with someone just based on a picture, because there are other requirements for that. Sexual attractiveness is necessary but not sufficient.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OP, ME, asked a simple question and indeed does come here to vent. How do I view sex, as a way to SHARE with my wife, a connection and a release. It IS the way I feel a closeness and connection to my wife more than anything else. That being said it is NOT the only way I feel connection and closeness to her. Sure, I would LOVE for my wife to desire me-what human being doesn't want that. BUT, that doesn't tie into my original post asking for opinion. I would like for my wife to think of me without me having to ask. Is that selfish of me, probably so but I do a lot of unselfish things for my family. The thought never crosses her mind, and THAT is what I guess I can't relate to because I think of what makes others happy, and then try to make them happy within reason-even if it might not be something I am thrilled to do. 

As for not showing any desire for her, why should I? She has none for me-I used to show desire and was pushed away. She knows I am ready and willing at any time, I have learned to take care of my own needs and not ask her to fulfill that for me, but if she wants me, she's got me. It is working for me, but my original question was me asking if she was selfish or sexually naive. Nothing more, nothing less, but clearly it turned into much more.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Actually, I take my first response back. Thinking about it more, I found out in recent months that I can be (very) sexually attracted to a man just based on looks and voice and the way he moves, which came as quite a revelation to me. What was really shocking was that the way the guy moved had such a powerful effect on me. I had never been so aware of that aspect before in my life.
> 
> But then although I didn't know him, had not met him at the time or ever laid eyes on him before, I did know *of* him; very accomplished, expert in his field, well-respected. So that did give me some important hints as to some details of his personality. So I don't know.
> 
> I really can't relate to being attracted enough to sleep with someone based solely on a photo and hearing his voice after all, I guess. I don't think.


This is a major difference between men and women.

What sexually attracts a man to a woman is pretty much physical.

What sexually attracts a woman to a man is part physical and part personality, status, wealth, and a number of other non-physical attributes. 

This is why it is possible for a man to induce attraction in a woman by "irrational confidence", "pre-selection", and several other behavioral attributes, whereas the reverse is not true.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> No, NS, I asked for opinions, but you are always SOOOO negative towards me, it is like you personally know me and can't stand me?? I guess I just don't get it. The criticism you have given is constant, and I get it, you think I am a doormat/loser. Just not sure why you keep commenting honestly, I get it-so move on already when it comes to addressing me. *Is there an ignore with this site*, if so I need to find it because this much I know-your husband is PERFECT, and I am beta loser so I am ready to move away from it. You know what I am saying.


Yes, there is an ignore function. Go to "User CP" and find "Edit Ignore List" in the left-hand pane.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think you are projecting about how posters behave. Sure PAPS18, myself and others come across as whiny here because we are using this forum as a place to vent our frustrations.

You talk about "improving" ourselves. You are probably picturing some winy, overweight, poorly dressed guy with no confidence who is a doormat at home and has a dead end job at work.

I don't know PAPS18, but I don't have any reason to think he is a wimp. His wife isn't sexually attracted to him. Quite likely she isn't attracted to anyone. He has probably tried everything short of leaving, just as I have. 

You probably can't imagine not being attracted to someone who meets your requirements, so you assume that applies to other women as well. That just doesn't seem to be the case. 



In my case what do you want improved? I'm not big on wresting grizzly bears and don't plan to take up that hobby. I do climb mountains, and fly airplanes. You assume I'm not confident but I've given talks to a thousand people and am famous for standing up to upper management to protect my employees at my work. My wife loves me and thinks I'm wonderful -she says so very frequently. She just doesn't want sex much and doesn't believe that I should want it either. 

Mem and Badsanta post a lot - can you point to a post that describes what you are suggesting, or suggest it yourself?






NobodySpecial said:


> See I disagree. Taking is akin to pouting. If he did some decent reading on the 180, improving HIMSELF for himself, he would come off as WAY more attractive. Confidence. Manliness. You don't need to think about this, because you do it naturally. All he has to do is look at your joking style to get a small sense. Read MEM and BadSanta for instance.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I answered your original question, but now to answer your question above, why should you show desire? Because your wife's desire might depend on yours, that's why. I can see why constant rejection would wear you down though - I'd find it intolerable myself.
> 
> *It really is a turn-on for a lot of women, myself included, when her husband is filled with desire and is basically not taking no for an answer. I don't know why; it just is.* Not suggesting that you assault her but approaching her confidently and assertively might be helpful.


*This *is perfectly understandable. A man who is strong enough to insist on sex when he is aroused is more likely to be able to defend a woman against attack, so this behavior would be selected for by evolution.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> ...but my original question was me asking if she was selfish or sexually naive. Nothing more, nothing less...


Is there a 3rd option? I think she is neither. The phrasing of your question is an unsuccessful attempt to absolve yourself from taking any of the responsibility for the problem.



PAPS18 said:


> As for not showing any desire for her, why should I? She has none for me-I used to show desire and was pushed away. She knows I am ready and willing at any time, I have learned to take care of my own needs and not ask her to fulfill that for me, but if she wants me, she's got me. It is working for me...


Techincally it must NOT be working for you, because you are here, aren't you? The problem is her lack of desire, so you respond by not showing any desire. Step back and think about that for a second. I've read plenty of books and articles and forums on marital problems, and I've not read once where someone thought this was a possible solution.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OliviaG, thanks for your insight-I appreciate you tact a lot better than others. You can question me or call me out, but I appreciate the way you do it. I am not above being criticized, I welcome all feedback but just don't make it so personal and insulting. 

I see your point about her desire reflecting mine but she is notorious for dropping hints, I am SOOOO tired is the one used the most, or I have a nagging headache. Even if I did want to initiate, I take that as a NO right away. I used to try to figure out when my odds could be better but I found out, there is not way to tell. I teeter back and forth on trying to initiate again, trying to grow a thicker skin-my odds would have to go up over never trying. Who knows maybe I try it again, but it is just so much easier to take care of me and then be available when she wants me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I wonder if it is also a marker for high testosterone, i.e., relative youth and ability to procreate?


Yes, that too.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

PAPS18 said:


> OP, ME, asked a simple question and indeed does come here to vent. How do I view sex, as a way to SHARE with my wife, a connection and a release. It IS the way I feel a closeness and connection to my wife more than anything else. That being said it is NOT the only way I feel connection and closeness to her. Sure, I would LOVE for my wife to desire me-what human being doesn't want that. BUT, that doesn't tie into my original post asking for opinion. I would like for my wife to think of me without me having to ask. Is that selfish of me, probably so but I do a lot of unselfish things for my family. The thought never crosses her mind, and THAT is what I guess I can't relate to because I think of what makes others happy, and then try to make them happy within reason-even if it might not be something I am thrilled to do.
> 
> As for not showing any desire for her, why should I? She has none for me-I used to show desire and was pushed away. She knows I am ready and willing at any time, I have learned to take care of my own needs and not ask her to fulfill that for me, but if she wants me, she's got me. It is working for me, but my original question was me asking if she was selfish or sexually naive. Nothing more, nothing less, but clearly it turned into much more.


In my opinion, based on what you've said, I think she is being both selfish and sexually naïve. It is who she is, and she is unlikely to change unless some drastic moves are taken, and then it would only last a little while. I think she is set in her ways, and doesn't see a need, nor does she want to change.

I know that doesn't help you, but it is what it is.

Completely abstaining from initiating sexual desire is definitely not the route to take, in my opinion. I know that repeated rejection is hard to take, but if you do want to have sex with her you will have to keep trying. You will have to go alpha on her in this aspect of your relationship. Otherwise, she will definitely be alpha in all aspects of the relationship, which I'm assuming is her comfort zone.

Hit on her again. If she refuses..., take things into your own hands in front of her. That's what I would do. Of course, there is likely to be some repercussions to such an act, but I am alpha so...

I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of people on here that disagree with this action, but drastic times call for drastic measures. It would be worth an argument to me to get the point across. At least you wouldn't be hiding anything from her, which also upsets her.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> OP, ME, asked a simple question and indeed does come here to vent. How do I view sex, as a way to SHARE with my wife, a connection and a release. It IS the way I feel a closeness and connection to my wife more than anything else. That being said it is NOT the only way I feel connection and closeness to her. Sure, I would LOVE for my wife to desire me-what human being doesn't want that. BUT, that doesn't tie into my original post asking for opinion. I would like for my wife to think of me without me having to ask. Is that selfish of me, probably so but I do a lot of unselfish things for my family. The thought never crosses her mind, and THAT is what I guess I can't relate to because I think of what makes others happy, and then try to make them happy within reason-even if it might not be something I am thrilled to do.
> 
> As for not showing any desire for her, why should I? She has none for me-I used to show desire and was pushed away. She knows I am ready and willing at any time, I have learned to take care of my own needs and not ask her to fulfill that for me, but if she wants me, she's got me. It is working for me, but my original question was me asking if she was selfish or sexually naive. Nothing more, nothing less, but clearly it turned into much more.


I too answered your question earlier but to reiterate....she's neither selfish or naive. She is who she is. Just so happens to be someone who's not like you which causes problems.

I know that you're not looking for advice on your situation, but I thought I'd throw this out there. Could help you in your situation. Your wife may be like me where she views sex as necessary for one purpose alone - to build intimacy/connection within the relationship. You know she's not going to offer up a handy or a bj just because you're horny. So why not just forget about seeking sexual gratification for the release and focus on making it about the intimacy? 

Somebody once posted the following suggestion on a thread where the OP was experiencing similar problems. He said if you want your wife to believe you when you tell her it has nothing to do with chasing the orgasm, then take the orgasm out of the equation. Make the sexual experience all about pleasing her and connecting emotionally. I imagine it being quite difficult to do, but I can also see this getting the message through loud and clear.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Maybe so Capster, I guess I come here to read/learn and post my two cents. But honestly, I asked what people what they thought. I personally believe she is both selfish and naive, because she has never thought on her own to do that-and because she doesn't understand a man's sexuality because she never takes the time to do any research. IF I have fight with her about something that I don't really understand or want to be better informed about, I do the research. But again, we can only bring OUR point of view to this board. I think of this through my own goggles so to speak, and I know how I am. 

Taking care of my needs is working, albeit I do get frustrated sometimes because self pleasure is NOTHING like sharing pleasure. So perhaps I will go back to trying again, putting effort into it and growing a thicker skin to protect against the NOT TONIGHT replies I am sure to get.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think we are basically saying the same thing. There are many things here that have been suggested (180, etc...) that I get the impression the OP might not be willing to do, so that is where it is hard to understand at times the point of this thread (so thinking it was more to vent then to find an actual solution)


Ayuh. I'm out. My attempts to post a PoV just piss him off anyway.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
what do you mean by "insist on sex". Presumably you don't mean continuing after your partner has said "no". 





tech-novelist said:


> *This *is perfectly understandable. A man who is strong enough to insist on sex when he is aroused is more likely to be able to defend a woman against attack, so this behavior would be selected for by evolution.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

What's your version of how to initiate?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> As for not showing any desire for her, why should I? She has none for me-I used to show desire and was pushed away. She knows I am ready and willing at any time, I have learned to take care of my own needs and not ask her to fulfill that for me, but if she wants me, she's got me. It is working for me, but my original question was me asking if she was selfish or sexually naive. Nothing more, nothing less, but clearly it turned into much more.


I don't think you are being honest with yourself PAPS. It isn't really working for you or you wouldn't be here complaining about it or running away when the truth is difficult to accept.

The answer to your original question is that she isn't sexually naive. She is selfish and a taker. The way you deal with that is to continue to give more in the hope that she will finally see your sacrifice, appreciate it and have sex with you. 

From the outside looking in, you look like a weak beta, with no self-respect and no self worth. Read MMSLP & MAP and make the changes you need to make, destabilize the M and you might get what you need out of this relationship and your W.

Or continue on the way you are and be like Holdingontoit or several others who just continue on in their sexless miserable marriages, ***** about it here but don't do anything about it because that's the nice thing to do and they are nice guys.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> what do you mean by "insist on sex". Presumably you don't mean continuing after your partner has said "no".


I'm not suggesting rape, of course, but presumably a man should know his wife well enough to know when "no" means "convince me".


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Tron said:


> I don't think you are being honest with yourself PAPS. It isn't really working for you or you wouldn't be here complaining it or running away when the truth is difficult to accept.
> 
> The answer to your original question is that she isn't sexually naive. She is selfish and a taker.


It occurs to me that I can continue to contribute since I am in his ignore list anyway. When this was me, I did not think of myself as selfish. Neither did my husband. I cooked food he liked. I did the lion's share of the chores. I cared for the baby. I worked. The unfortunate truth was, I did not want him. I did not MEAN to be a jerk when I had a problem with his masturbation. I had a whole bucket of ideas (that were dumb) about what it meant to be "wife" and "husband". I really don't think I was a taker. Just clueless. Not naive. Trying to adhere to a vision of marriage rather than caring for my husband.

The saving grace was that he was completely unwilling to deal in duty sex. Sex for him. He wanted a real, good sex life. And was willing to leave me for it. He threw down his man card. I did not feel guilty for "not meeting his needs". I felt BING I like this man. I don't just like this man, I want to f him silly. Game on.

I get that it is different when done at year 5 instead of year 25. But without my husband, I would never have known what a sexual creature I am. And for that I am forever grateful.



> The way you deal with that is to continue to give more in the hope that she will finally see your sacrifice, appreciate it and have sex with you.
> 
> From the outside looking in, you look like a weak beta, with no self-respect and no self worth. Read MMSLP & MAP and make the changes you need to make, destabilize the M and you might get what you need out of this relationship and your W.
> 
> Or continue on the way you are and be like Holdingontoit or several others who just continue on in their sexless miserable marriages, ***** about it here but don't do anything about it because that's the nice thing to do and they are nice guys.


I have never read MMSLP. It kind of scares me because some people seem to think it talks about the dread game. I have no stomach for that. But it seems to get some stuff right for some folks who can separate the wheat from the chafe.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Luvher4life said:


> Hit on her again. If she refuses..., take things into your own hands in front of her. That's what I would do. Of course, there is likely to be some repercussions to such an act, but I am alpha so...


This sends a very clear and strong message: it says, what's important here is my orgasm and whether *I'm* getting off.

Some women may respond to this, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some would find this just turns them off completely.

That said, if what actually matters is the orgasm and getting off more frequently, might as well be honest about it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> that is very sad. There are people of both genders who will really make a big effort to make their partners happy.


I wonder about this. Does my SO meet my needs? Mostly yes, but not by doing things that make him unhappy or feeling used. If he is not in the mood for sex, for example, we don't have it. He meets my needs by doing things he *wants* to.

Do I meet his needs? Mostly yes, but again not by doing things that make me unhappy or feeling used. Will I drive across town to do a favour for him? Sure. But not if I have made other promises or obligations, or whatever.

We are fortunate that we are mostly compatible.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> I'm afraid it would turn me off completely. I'd actually feel as though I'd been assaulted if my husband did that. Would lose a huge amount of respect for him and think he didn't care about me at all.


I wouldn't go as far as to say assaulted, but it would make it crystal clear to me that really his view is that I am to service him regardless of my own happiness or sexual pleasure, and that basically *I* don't matter.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

always_alone said:


> This sends a very clear and strong message: it says, what's important here is my orgasm and whether *I'm* getting off.


That may be the way she (or most) would view it, but at least he wouldn't be hiding it. Remember, she gets upset about that, too. YES, it would be SO much better if she would just HELP in some way, but with it being a physical need that is not being met, what difference does it make? It is a drastic measure by a desperate man, and his needs need to be made known loud and clear.



always_alone said:


> Some women may respond to this, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some would find this just turns them off completely.


Being a turn-off is most likely, but what does he have to lose. It's painfully obvious nothing else is working. This would an ALPHA behavior, nonetheless, regardless of whether it is viewed as gross, or the less likely turn-on.



always_alone said:


> That said, if what actually matters is the orgasm and getting off more frequently, might as well be honest about it.


The orgasm is only ONE of many reasons for sex. Yes, there is a physical release to orgasm, but the emotional and spiritual aspects of actual sex with the one you LOVE is the only way for it to be fulfilling. Maybe..., just maybe..., this would open her eyes to an actual need? It's worth a try, in my opinion.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Luvher4life said:


> The orgasm is only ONE of many reasons for sex. Yes, there is a physical release to orgasm, but the emotional and spiritual aspects of actual sex with the one you LOVE is the only way for it to be fulfilling. Maybe..., just maybe..., this would open her eyes to an actual need? It's worth a try, in my opinion.


What I was trying to say is a move like that will only ever show her the physical need to release, not any of the other parts. And likely she already knows about that part of it, but doesn't particularly want to be used like a sex doll or flesh light.

Proving your alphaness isn't going to solve that problem, no matter how much chest thumping is involved.

Upshot is that I see two different diagnoses of OPs problem, and one says it's lack of alpha, and the other says it's lack of understanding of her needs. Can't speak for OPs wife, but if it were me, it would be the latter.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> PAPS18, I hope I haven't criticized you; I empathize with you.
> 
> Being given pre-emptive hints that your attention would not be welcome would be a big turn-off, I can absolutely see that. I think the solution involves playing a bit of a mind game with yourself: figuring out how to ignore that kind of thing. Responsive desire seems to be a reality for females. You may be able to turn her on with confident, assertive sexual behaviour if you can take on a different mind-set and understand *her* sexuality in a way that she probably doesn't even understand it.
> 
> There are people who try to understand things and solve problems when they have them and there are people who just roll with and accept the way things are without giving the situation much thought. I think most of us posting here are the former and our spouses probably mostly the latter. We have to do the work to fix things if we want any change, because they will just accept whatever the situation is, never seeking to even understand the problem.


I agree with OG.
@PAPS18 - curious (sorry if I missed), what would your W do if she gave you one of those hints (i.e. I'm tired) and you decided to still initiate. Would she flat out reject you or would she go along with?

This is something my W and I discussed, where I was constantly trying to navigate the "hints" to determine my odds of us having sex that night. Some of the hints I don't think she was necessarily doing to discourage sex and she said she wasn't even aware of doing. However, she has never rejected me, and once I initiated she never had a problem getting in to it, she just needed me to get her engine going. So for her, it was more a case of responsive desire and not lacking interest in sex.

We talked things out I guess a few months ago, and as of now this has been the best things have been in terms of sex and frequency. Maybe the big difference from your situation, we both wanted things to change and agreed this was an important part of our marriage. If she was unwilling to make the necessary changes, well, my posts would probably be much different now lol.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> I'm afraid it would turn me off completely. I'd actually feel as though I'd been assaulted if my husband did that. Would lose a huge amount of respect for him and think he didn't care about me at all.


This would be true for the vast majority of women out there, in my opinion. The thing is, though, she doesn't "respect" him enough now to help in any way, nor will she even try, so this is definitely a desperate move. He's already proven he cares, and continues to prove that, yet she is proving she doesn't care enough to even attempt to address his needs.

Maybe he's feeling "assaulted" by her lack of respect for him?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I agree - just in my wife's case, "no" really really means "no". There has never been a case where she didn't mean it. The very few times I pushed a bit more she got angry - as was reasonable. 

The "no" isn't "no you manly man who wants to ravish me like in a romance novel". The "no" is "sorry, I'm feeling really poorly today, maybe I'll feel better on the weekend". 





tech-novelist said:


> I'm not suggesting rape, of course, but presumably a man should know his wife well enough to know when "no" means "convince me".


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think your situation is as rare as mine - though in the opposite direction. 

Basically your husband said "have sex more often or I'm leaving". That statement made you appreciate him, made you understand his worth. That worked for YOU and i'm very glad that it did. 

For many women though, that would be viewed as a threat: have sex or I divorce you. For many men, making such a statement would feel like threatening for sex. 





NobodySpecial said:


> It occurs to me that I can continue to contribute since I am in his ignore list anyway. When this was me, I did not think of myself as selfish. Neither did my husband. I cooked food he liked. I did the lion's share of the chores. I cared for the baby. I worked. The unfortunate truth was, I did not want him. I did not MEAN to be a jerk when I had a problem with his masturbation. I had a whole bucket of ideas (that were dumb) about what it meant to be "wife" and "husband". I really don't think I was a taker. Just clueless. Not naive. Trying to adhere to a vision of marriage rather than caring for my husband.
> 
> The saving grace was that he was completely unwilling to deal in duty sex. Sex for him. He wanted a real, good sex life. And was willing to leave me for it. He threw down his man card. I did not feel guilty for "not meeting his needs". I felt BING I like this man. I don't just like this man, I want to f him silly. Game on.
> 
> ...


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Proving your alphaness isn't going to solve that problem, no matter how much chest thumping is involved.


Wholeheartedly disagree. What's his solution - talk his way into more sex? No, that doesn't work. First, he has to establish that he is a man with a normal sex drive. He needs to initiate, as in rolling on top of her and kissing her. If she refuses, he should roll over and go to sleep without getting mad and then try again tomorrow. 

PAPS has years of avoiding sex and initiating. You don't solve that problem by avoiding sex and initiation. He's got to break the beta habit.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

always_alone said:


> What I was trying to say is a move like that will only ever show her the physical need to release, not any of the other parts. And likely she already knows about that part of it, but doesn't particularly want to be used like a sex doll or flesh light.
> 
> Proving your alphaness isn't going to solve that problem, no matter how much chest thumping is involved.
> 
> Upshot is that I see two different diagnoses of OPs problem, and one says it's lack of alpha, and the other says it's lack of understanding of her needs. Can't speak for OPs wife, but if it were me, it would be the latter.


Point understood. I can see that, but she still isn't "doing" anything about it, and is repeatedly showing that his needs are of no consequence to her.

Showing the ALPHA in him could be a positive thing in his particular case. He has let her be the alpha so long that maybe she needs to see this side of him. After all, he IS a man, right?

Yes, there are always two sides to a relationship, and seeing each other's viewpoint is the only way to actually solve the problem. The thing is, he IS trying to see her side of it, and is being very patient. She, on the other hand, WON'T see his viewpoint at all, and doesn't really see a need to. The only choice he has is to make his viewpoint obvious enough to where she will at least have a reaction. It could (and probably will) be a negative reaction, but at least she will have to face it.

I wouldn't even try this overt way before a few minutes of thoughtful, sexually charged, continuous advances first.

I don't "know" how strong the marriage is, nor do I "know" the wife. There is always the possibility that this could be the "last straw" as far as she is concerned, so I would certainly have to keep that in mind as well.

It's just a suggestion for a desperate man. It's definitely a controversial approach, and may be completely wrong for his circumstance. I certainly would try absolutely everything else before I resorted to this particular suggestion.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think your situation is as rare as mine - though in the opposite direction.
> 
> Basically your husband said "have sex more often or I'm leaving". That statement made you appreciate him, made you understand his worth. That worked for YOU and i'm very glad that it did.
> ...


I think it is more likely to have a negative outcome when the recipient of the message is one who compartimentalizes sex, sets it apart from everything else, even within marriage.

Married couples are supposed to hold hands, to say nice things, to do nice things, to say I love you... Those things are almost universally assumed within marriage, they don't always happen, but they are pretty much expected.

I think the couples that have the best, most fulfilling sex lives are likely the ones where both partners feel as if sex should be included in the same way all those other things are, that it's not somehow set apart in it's own little box, that it is yet another way to experience their partner.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> I'm not saying it wouldn't be "fair" or "just" given the circumstances. I think though that if he wants to keep his wife's respect he should probably not use that particular tactic. *It would make me feel disgust and I think it would be difficult to recover from that.* Way too harsh (from a female perspective).


That could very well be the reaction. I would certainly hope not, but it could be. And, it's pretty obvious she doesn't "respect" him as it is.

I would hope the marriage is strong enough to overcome such a thing. It is most certainly a desperate measure, and I would not encourage it without trying every single other way first.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Communicating one's needs IS the most important thing one can do in a relationship. However continuously asking someone to meet a need that they, for whatever reason, won't meet is a problem. Causes misery all of the way round. I've been on both sides of the argument. The asker wonders why their partner doesn't love them enough to meet their expectations. The askee wonders why their partner can't love them exactly as they are.
> 
> You call it 'giving up'. I call it stopping the insanity - doing the same thing over and over again expecting change.


I don't think anyone should ask continuously. You try a few times and then, if there's no response, give up.



Lila said:


> Are you suggesting that 'I had it coming'? That my husband won't compliment me the way that I want because of something that happened over 10 years ago? Hmmm, could be, but then again his record has been less than stellar and I don't hold that against him. I would lose all respect for him if that were the case. However, I don't think that's it at all. Our relationship dynamic has been this way for a long time.



Certainly not "you deserved it". That implies revenge or spite and that's never right.

I could have been that he thought "well, apparently the rules are that we don't have to accommodate our spouse if we don't want to" .

But it's probably just the way he thinks, which explains both his patience with you and his unwillingness to do things for you that he just doesn't want to do.

I'd rather try for each spouse putting effort into meeting their spouse's needs first and see if that works. Works for my wife and I.



Lila said:


> On one hand, we recognize our partner's limitations. It's a take it or leave relationship. Taking it means managing our expectations regarding the issue, not bringing it up over and over, and relying on ourselves for happiness.
> 
> On the other hand, we're more empathetic towards each other. We can step into the other's shoes and recognize that our request may be causing our partner unhappiness. We don't want happiness at the expense of their unhappiness.


And yet, from some of your posts, it seems like you're not entirely happy just taking it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> IME, people will just do what they do, what they want to do. What will make them happy.
> 
> I've never had a guy change himself or go out of his way, doing something that made him unhappy in order to make me happy, and have learned that there's no point in expecting them to.
> 
> If you marry someone just because you find them hot, what reason do you have to believe they are going to become giving or work towards *your* happiness?


If something makes me a little unhappy and my wife (or most anybody else for that matter) very happy, I'll usually do it.

If it doesn't affect me either way but makes someone happy, I'll usually do that.

If something would make me very unhappy and would make the other person sort of happy, I'm not doing it.

It's a matter of weighting the happiness. My relationship (wife, stranger, co-worker, etc is a modifier in the equation).


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
completely agree. Setting sex apart is a big part of the problem in many cases.



samyeagar said:


> snip
> 
> I think the couples that have the best, most fulfilling sex lives are likely the ones where both partners feel as if sex should be included in the same way all those other things are, that it's not somehow set apart in it's own little box, that it is yet another way to experience their partner.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I don't know about the others, but over the many years of trying to find a solution, I've tried this quite a few times. "Sorry, I'm too tired tonight" is always the response. She doesn't mind at all when I do it, as long as I stop as soon as she tells me to - which she always does.






Capster said:


> Wholeheartedly disagree. What's his solution - talk his way into more sex? No, that doesn't work. First, he has to establish that he is a man with a normal sex drive. He needs to initiate, as in rolling on top of her and kissing her. If she refuses, he should roll over and go to sleep without getting mad and then try again tomorrow.
> 
> PAPS has years of avoiding sex and initiating. You don't solve that problem by avoiding sex and initiation. He's got to break the beta habit.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Capster, you posted this-

What's his solution - talk his way into more sex? No, that doesn't work. First, he has to establish that he is a man with a normal sex drive. He needs to initiate, as in rolling on top of her and kissing her. If she refuses, he should roll over and go to sleep without getting mad and then try again tomorrow. 

Talking is no good, been there done that but what you said next is what I am starting to believe I need to give serious thought-not the establish I am a man with a normal sex drive. She knows I am normal-she thinks all guys are like me, while all women are like her. She has a very black and white view on this. We are VERY NORMAL in her eyes regardless of what I say or do. BUT, what you said next is what does makes sense to me-trying but then being able to accept the results, good or bad. They key for me is not getting angry but accepting her-that is hard for me I admit and have admitted on my posts here. BUT, it is something I need to work on-when it has been a few weeks, it becomes even tougher to keep from getting angry. BUT, as Richard said-in regards to NS's post-

For many women though, that would be viewed as a threat: have sex or I divorce you. For many men, making such a statement would feel like threatening for sex. 

Good for them that he made the threat and had full intentions of leaving his wife over lack of sex. For many of us, we are NOT leaving because of this issue-and I guess that somehow makes us beta?? I just don't buy that. Of course men and women through the years have had affairs or divorced for this reason-to each his or her own but this labeling stuff I just don't get. 


Also I have to say, I know all this alpha and beta talk is very much the thing around here, but I am just not buying into it. I think both of us are alpha at times and beta at times. If you want to say she is alpha because she has rejected me for sex, that is your opinion of course. But I just look at our relationship a lot different than one person is in total control and the other takes a back seat, like the old show All in the Family-Archie Bunker was certainly the alpha and poor Edith was the beta. Ok, I get that but our relationship is FAR different than that. We are total partners in marriage and best friends. This idea that she is some bossy ***** woman, and I am some little puppy dog trotting behind her, well it is laughable. She has a much lower sex drive, we both are aware of this. She either believes I save myself for her the few times she is interested, is fully aware I take care of needs to bridge the gap but doesn't say anything, or as I believe is totally naive to it all because sex is just not something she thinks about very often. 

I thank you all for your comments, criticisms (I have not blocked NS yet so yes, even I thank her), and support. I am going to take a break from this board for awhile. I thought my original post was pretty innocent and harmless but now some nearly 450 posts later, it has taken a life of its own. I will check back later on but for now thanks again and happy thoughts to you all.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> completely agree. Setting sex apart is a big part of the problem in many cases.


Honey, it's been a really tough day, and I would really like a back rub...I just don't see the difference.

I mean, I can understand if the aversion to doing something sexual for a partner is due to the giver getting turned on in the process and not getting their release.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> So, you think that a woman's personality does not affect your feeling of sexual attraction towards her at all? In other words, you could have sex with a beautiful woman with a pleasing voice no matter how off-putting her personality?
> 
> If you think so, I think you're mistaken but of course I don't know. To go to extremes, what if this physically sexy woman with the sexy voice turned out to have some mental incapacity that gave her the personality of an 8 year old? Still no problem sleeping with her (but of course would not want a relationship outside of sex with her)?


Yeah. That's pretty much how it is.

Sorry.


----------



## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> I would advise him to *never* resort to your suggestion.


I can understand that, especially coming from a female perspective, and yes, it is an extremely desperate move. The repercussions would most definitely have to be weighed out.



OliviaG said:


> There are other ways to show your "ALPHA", if that's what you want to do.


I think he needs to show the alpha in him in other areas first. Maybe even do the 180. Some would view that as a temper tantrum, however, and would get even more disconnected.



OliviaG said:


> Ways that don't almost guarantee that you will destroy any sense she might have that she is respected or loved or protected by you.


He has already shown over the course of his marriage that she is "respected", "loved", and "protected" by him. Is he not entitled to the same from her? A marriage is not a 50/50 arrangement. In my opinion, it SHOULD be 100/100 by each spouse.



OliviaG said:


> Ways that won't make her think you *HATE* her.


I'll admit I don't see how she could think that he could "hate" her when he shows different consistently on every level, including the pursuit of her affection in the bedroom. Does she "hate" him already because she is unwilling to compromise at all? Love is a two-way street, and should ultimately be shown by reciprocation.



OliviaG said:


> I thought ALPHA males were supposed to protect their mates. Does that not include their emotional well-being?


Yes, they are supposed to protect their mates, and that includes their emotional well-being. He has to restore the alpha in himself in order to show her that he is a capable and desirable mate. Establishing his alpha characteristic in the relationship is the part that he needs to work on.


----------



## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> Capster, you posted this-
> 
> What's his solution - talk his way into more sex? No, that doesn't work. First, he has to establish that he is a man with a normal sex drive. He needs to initiate, as in rolling on top of her and kissing her. If she refuses, he should roll over and go to sleep without getting mad and then try again tomorrow.
> 
> ...


But you guys are not normal. I don't think anyone would argue that it's normal for the man to not initiate sex for 5 years. Even if you did, it would not be normal for her to turn you down as much as you think she would. That's the main beta trait I see in you. You don't initiate because you're afraid you two will come to the realization that you're not normal. You're avoiding the issue right now to protect yourselves.

You can get her to realize this by initiating - every day if you want. I did and still do. If you get turned down 7 says in a row, so be it. She'll eventually realize it's a problem. I recommend facing the problem.

Good luck.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> OP, ME, asked a simple question and indeed does come here to vent. How do I view sex, as a way to SHARE with my wife, a connection and a release. It IS the way I feel a closeness and connection to my wife more than anything else. That being said it is NOT the only way I feel connection and closeness to her. Sure, I would LOVE for my wife to desire me-what human being doesn't want that. BUT, that doesn't tie into my original post asking for opinion. I would like for my wife to think of me without me having to ask. Is that selfish of me, probably so but I do a lot of unselfish things for my family. The thought never crosses her mind, and THAT is what I guess I can't relate to because I think of what makes others happy, and then try to make them happy within reason-even if it might not be something I am thrilled to do.
> 
> As for not showing any desire for her, why should I? She has none for me-I used to show desire and was pushed away. She knows I am ready and willing at any time, I have learned to take care of my own needs and not ask her to fulfill that for me, but if she wants me, she's got me. It is working for me, but my original question was me asking if she was selfish or sexually naive. Nothing more, nothing less, but clearly it turned into much more.


She is selfish


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

*self·ish*


/ˈselfiSH/


adjective

adjective: selfish




_(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure._



I think she is definitely selfish, although she likely doesn't see it that way.

AND, she is sexually naïve because she has no idea what a "normal" sex life consists of.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Is she sexually naive if she knows that H has an issue with their current sex life (or lack of) and is unwilling to do anything about it? To me, what a normal sex life should be doesn't matter (and will differ from couple to couple), this is an issue within their marriage that she is unwilling to address.


----------



## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Is she sexually naive if she knows that H has an issue with their current sex life (or lack of) and is unwilling to do anything about it? To me, what a normal sex life should be doesn't matter (and will differ from couple to couple), this is an issue within their marriage that she is unwilling to address.


He hasn't initiated in 5 years. As a result, unless I'm missing something, *she has not turned him down* in 5 years.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> And yet, from some of your posts, it seems like you're not entirely happy just taking it.


I've figured ways to deal with the majority of the "issues" (not many but big in my eyes) but old habits die hard. I'm sure my vents regarding these will get fewer and far between with time.

However, there is one issue that I am ready to "leave it" for. We're addressing it MC.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> what do you mean by "insist on sex". Presumably you don't mean continuing after your partner has said "no".


I'm afraid so.

This is the ultimate conundrum. A woman's lizard brain likes the "insist". A woman's rational brain wants you to ask permission.

Of course, a man should never "insist" in the face of "no" regardless of what a woman's lizard brain thinks.

I think that woman have a hard time honestly reconciling this conflict between woman's nature and nurture. I think many have a hard time even acknowledging that it exists.

I think men are confused.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Capster said:


> He hasn't initiated in 5 years. As a result, unless I'm missing something, *she has not turned him down* in 5 years.


I knew he stopped initiating but 5 years, yikes ... so he doesn't initiate, she thinks he is fine with the current situation, so why bother changing anything??? Honestly this has me rethinking my stance on her being entirely selfish ....

You aren't by chance his wife in disguise @Capster :wink2:


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> John, is confident the right word to describe the corner office crowd that you're referring to, or would arrogant be a better descriptor? My impression from what you've written here and elsewhere is the latter, and I can see why that would be a turn-off.
> 
> As for the naturally confident women - are you just neutral about them or is it a plus, attraction-wise?


It's hard to ignore the naturally high correlation between confidence and arrogance. 

Personally, I don't mind confident women if they're emotionally secure... But the ones I know seem to be growing less emotionally confident - sidelining their emotional side - while advancing... Hopefully not a general trend.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> We talked things out I guess a few months ago, and as of now this has been the best things have been in terms of sex and frequency. Maybe the big difference from your situation, we both wanted things to change and agreed this was an important part of our marriage. If she was unwilling to make the necessary changes, well, my posts would probably be much different now lol.


See! The "talk" CAN work!

All it needs is a great marriage and a loving spouse who wants to work on it.

So, it works in 1 out of 1,000 cases.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> See! The "talk" CAN work!
> 
> All it needs is a great marriage and a loving spouse who wants to work on it.
> 
> So, it works in 1 out of 1,000 cases.


Those odds do suck though lol.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Yeah. That's pretty much how it is.
> 
> Sorry.


I disagree.

If my wife acted like Paps wife, I would have little to no sexual interest in her.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think your situation is as rare as mine - though in the opposite direction.
> 
> Basically your husband said "have sex more often or I'm leaving".


See? This is why i don't want to bother with you. You insist that this was the motivating factor despite the fact that I have told you repeatedly that it isn't.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I disagree.
> 
> If my wife acted like Paps wife, I would have little to no sexual interest in her.


What are we talking about, having sex as in a ONS or sex as part of a relationship?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Is that what you want? You seemed to come here for advice. But you don't really want that. You want a magic pill to get your wife to screw you despite not wanting to.


Walk back a few steps with thine high horse and ask thyself why did she agree to marry knowing she will desire very little in terms of sex...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> What are we talking about, having sex as in a ONS or sex as part of a relationship?


I was talking from a relationship standpoint. 

The enticement of a ONS was always the "newness" of the person, which to me does not really apply in Paps case.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> what do you mean by "insist on sex". Presumably you don't mean continuing after your partner has said "no".


It's a Game of Thrones thing


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

> My example was that in all our years together, when I was rejected (sometimes that rejection was a quick NO, other times there would be cuddling and snuggling-which leads to arousal in me especially when it has been weeks since sex) before I would get not tonight. It was me more wondering outloud, hmmm, she can tell I am really aroused but she says no.


And if you're 'aroused' does that mean that she MUST 
'accommodate' you? Therein lies part of the problem. Many men can become hard by a pretty woman walking by or a stiff breeze. 





> Yet, all those times through the years she has never said, you know what, I can see/feel that you are really in the mood and I know how important this is for you, I am going to give you a helping hand. I would never EXPECT it to happen all the time, or even most of the time.


But it DOES seem that you DO _expect_ her to read your mind. If a man has a hard-on, does that mean he ALWAYS wants sex? My goodness...if that was the case, women BEWARE!

On the other hand, perhaps your wife learned that the MAN is 'supposed' to be the 'leader'. That is, if he wants something (sex or a sandwich) she was taught/learned to leave it up to HIM to tell her. 



> Her happiness is my happiness.


NOW I call b.s. on YOU, OP. Obviously HER happiness means NOT having to give you a hj. Yet, you KNOW that, and YOU'RE_ NOT _HAPPY!
[/QUOTE]

I am answering this post at page 27 so I haven't read the other posts. Please forgive me if I'm repeating what others have already said.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I was talking from a relationship standpoint.
> 
> The enticement of a ONS was always the "newness" of the person, which to me does not really apply in Paps case.


I completely agree on the relationship side. I think the conversation between Buddy and Olivia was more general then specific to Paps case.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

PAPS18 said:


> "..she knows I want it more than she does-she believe ALL guys want it as much as they can get it, most women (except *****s in her mind) are like her. She is VERY old fashioned in her beliefs.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! And you're basically PROVING her point! I've got news for you, OP. Most guys DO want it as much as they can get it! 

She's not 'old fashioned' in that regard.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! And you're basically PROVING her point! I've got news for you, OP. *Most guys DO want it as much as they can get it!*
> 
> She's not 'old fashioned' in that regard.


Much in the same way women avoid it as much as they can right?


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Much in the same way women avoid it as much as they can right?


Ever ask yourself WHY women avoid it...and seek to discover the TRUTH about it instead of drawing your own conclusions based on some preconceived notion about how women think?

That wasn't meant to 'slam' you, Sam. But many men DO think with their ego...and they believe that they already KNOW how women think so they don't have to try to figure them out.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> Ever ask yourself WHY women avoid it...and seek to discover the TRUTH about it instead of drawing your own conclusions based on some preconceived notion about how women think?


Honestly, I have never really wondered that because I have never personally encountered it. My experience has been that women are by and large just as sexually desirous as men.

At any given time here at TAM, there are multiple running threads from women who are not getting enough sex from their husbands. The standard advice always makes me cringe though...porn, cheating, gay...try dressing up, makeup, role playing, more aggressive initiation...very seldom are the mental and emotional aspects of the relationship addressed, and possible things she may be doing that might be building resentments.

I know for myself, I would be far less likely to want to have sex with my wife if she has spent the whole night on her phone, barely saying a word to me than if she was still in her sweats, hair a mess...if we had had an otherwise engaging day...game on. Disconnected day...not likely.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Yeah. That's pretty much how it is.
> 
> Sorry.





Buddy400 said:


> A woman's lizard brain likes the "insist".


Gah! And yet so many men are dumbfounded when women complain about being used like a sex doll or fleshlight.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Disconnected day...not likely.


My SO is the same way. If we've been arguing, or he is depressed, or stressed, or in a bad mood, he isn't interested in sex at all.

He also doesn't find women sexually attractive when he doesn't like their personality or character.


----------



## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> Of course he is entitled to the same. I already have said plainly that I think she is being both naive and selfish and that I think he might get better results if he is more assertive about initiating.


Exactly. I agree that he absolutely has to be assertive, and continue to initiate, or he will never see results at all. The thing is, he has already tried that for years and it didn't work. Changing his approach is something that he can continue to try, but until she sees how important the need is to him, she will never change.



OliviaG said:


> Just because he's shown her love and respect before doesn't mean that feeling stands no matter what he does in the future. If he were to give her a black eye, the present state of his love and respect would be up for revision. Same with if he were to take your suggestion. Just because he needs to change something doesn't mean he should do something abusive.


I get the gist of what you're saying here, but the comparison is not exactly the same. MB is just as bad as giving her a black eye? If not done in the proper context, yes, it "could" be considered abusive emotionally, but isn't she doing the same thing by not addressing his needs? That's more of an apple to apple comparison than your example.






OliviaG said:


> I agree that she should be looking after his needs and should *want* to look after his needs of her own accord. What does that have to do with it? You think she deserves your brand of retribution, I suppose? Maybe she does "deserve" it, but it will not bring about the change that the OP desires. Or I'd be extremely shocked if it did. It's a very high risk move.


Unfortunately, you're likely right about this. From a female perspective, it may be considered "retribution", but I don't see it as being that way if he has tried everything else, and needs a release. Remember, she doesn't want him to do it behind her back, right? And, yes, this is definitely a high risk move. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but I haven't been in his situation.






OliviaG said:


> If your definition of alpha means following your suggestion, then I couldn't disagree any more strongly with you. If you mean he needs to be more assertive with her (in a non-vulgar, non-abusive way), then I agree.


It was just an alpha example. Nothing more. I haven't been in his situation, and pray that I never am, so the suggestion is as a last resort. I still can't see this as being any "more" abusive as what she is doing to him. If he does so after his advances are met with "no" several times in one evening while in bed, and he is aroused, he can't MB discretely while lying beside her?


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> My SO is the same way. If we've been arguing, or he is depressed, or stressed, or in a bad mood, he isn't interested in sex at all.
> 
> He also doesn't find women sexually attractive when he doesn't like their personality or character.


Tough day at work, stressed over things doesn't usually curb my desire for my wife or lead me to ask for a rain check. My desire for her is pretty much solely dependent on just her and I and how things are between us.


----------



## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Why is it different for women?

There seems to be a double-standard here, especially when it comes to sex. If the woman doesn't "want to", it's the man that is doing something wrong, whereas, if the man doesn't "want to", there is something "wrong" with him. In other words, it is always the "man" who is to blame, or so it seems.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It occurs to me that I can continue to contribute since I am in his ignore list anyway. When this was me, I did not think of myself as selfish. Neither did my husband. I cooked food he liked. I did the lion's share of the chores. I cared for the baby. I worked. The unfortunate truth was, I did not want him. I did not MEAN to be a jerk when I had a problem with his masturbation. I had a whole bucket of ideas (that were dumb) about what it meant to be "wife" and "husband". I really don't think I was a taker. Just clueless. Not naive. Trying to adhere to a vision of marriage rather than caring for my husband.
> 
> The saving grace was that he was completely unwilling to deal in duty sex. Sex for him. He wanted a real, good sex life. And was willing to leave me for it. He threw down his man card. I did not feel guilty for "not meeting his needs". I felt BING I like this man. I don't just like this man, I want to f him silly. Game on.
> 
> ...


If your husband had read MMSLP, he would probably have done... exactly what he did do. 

Since what it teaches is: 

1. You shouldn't let your wife get away with not meeting your needs; and
2. Here are a bunch of tips on how to get her to meet them, or if you have done everything you can and she still won't do it, how to get a better wife who *will *meet them.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I agree - just in my wife's case, "no" really really means "no". There has never been a case where she didn't mean it. The very few times I pushed a bit more she got angry - as was reasonable.
> 
> The "no" isn't "no you manly man who wants to ravish me like in a romance novel". The "no" is "sorry, I'm feeling really poorly today, maybe I'll feel better on the weekend".


And when the weekend comes and goes, and the next weekend comes and goes, but somehow the magic moment never arrives? Then what should a man do?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

_“Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.”

-Maya Angelou_


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Luvher4life said:


> Why is it different for women?


It isn't. As Sam said, lots of people want to pretend it's totally different, but it isn't.

At least not in my experience. My SO doesn't like to feel pressured to perform for me any more than I would like to be pressured by him.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> If your husband had read MMSLP, he would probably have done... exactly what he did do.
> 
> Since what it teaches is:
> 
> ...


The thing that is not clearly understood is that it was not dread. It was not the threat. I did not need him. I made most of the money. It was that he owned himself.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Luvher4life said:


> Why is it different for women?
> 
> There seems to be a double-standard here, especially when it comes to sex. If the woman doesn't "want to", it's the man that is doing something wrong, whereas, if the man doesn't "want to", there is something "wrong" with him. In other words, *it is always the "man" who is to blame*, or so it seems.


Now you're getting it!


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> The thing that is not clearly understood is that it was not dread. It was not the threat. I did not need him. I made most of the money. It was that he owned himself.


Owning oneself is the main point of MMSLP. The ideal result is a wife interested in having sex again (or more). Unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't happen, in which case he can go elsewhere to find someone who is interested.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> Owning oneself is the main point of MMSLP. The ideal result is a wife interested in having sex again (or more). Unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't happen, in which case he can go elsewhere to find someone who is interested.


Which strikes me as the right way to go. We only get one life. The idea of living it grumpy and bitter makes no sense to me.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
maybe I'm misunderstanding. You may be motivated by many things, but it sounded like the only think that caused you to change your behavior was his threatening to leave. That nothing else he said or did change how you acted.

If I misunderstood your story, please clarify. What did he do that caused your behavior to change?

I'm not trying to argue with you - you have valuable information. It sounds like you used to seem LD, and now you do not AND you are happy. Its important for people like me to understand how that happened.




NobodySpecial said:


> See? This is why i don't want to bother with you. You insist that this was the motivating factor despite the fact that I have told you repeatedly that it isn't.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> maybe I'm misunderstanding. You may be motivated by many things, but it sounded like the only think that caused you to change your behavior was his threatening to leave. That nothing else he said or did change how you acted.
> 
> If I misunderstood your story, please clarify. What did he do that caused your behavior to change?
> ...


Read the thread. It's all there. I am reminded of the scene from Shawshank Redemption where whatshisface asks the warden if he is being deliberately obtuse.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Gopd evening
continuing after she has said "no". Surly you are not suggesting rape, but I don't see any other way to describe continuing to do sexual things to a woman who has (seriously) told you to stop.

I'm not talking about a playful "no". but an actual no that indicates a serious desire that you stop. 




Buddy400 said:


> I'm afraid so.
> 
> This is the ultimate conundrum. A woman's lizard brain likes the "insist". A woman's rational brain wants you to ask permission.
> 
> ...


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Andy Duphrane


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Andy Duphrane


Holy brain fart! Thanks!


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Holy brain fart! Thanks!


Well, apparently I don't spell gud...

Andy Dufresne


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> Owning oneself is the main point of MMSLP. The ideal result is a wife interested in having sex again (or more). Unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't happen, in which case he can go elsewhere to find someone who is interested.


The other thing that strikes me is that when you own yourself you keep the power to be happy with yourself. In addition to being more attractive toward the hope of an improved sex life, it is just grown up not to wait for someone else to "meet your needs".


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Well, apparently I don't spell gud...
> 
> Andy Dufresne


It is clearly week's end. I was even going to congratulate you on spelling it right.


----------



## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> Now you're getting it!


:grin2: Oh, I got it a long time ago. That's why the statistics I saw on TAM show that women are more likely to have an affair than men. It also seems that it is okay for the woman to hold old sexually (she has her reasons and they are always valid), but it is not okay for the man to hold out (he has reasons that have to be addressed, and are not valid past physical reasons).

Sexual manipulation is condoned by women (and acceptable), yet it is prohibited by men (therefore he has to change).

It's always the man can't see the woman's perspective, only his own, while a woman can see "both" sides? I don't think so.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Gopd evening
> continuing after she has said "no". Surly you are not suggesting rape, but I don't see any other way to describe continuing to do sexual things to a woman who has (seriously) told you to stop.
> 
> I'm not talking about a playful "no". but an actual no that indicates a serious desire that you stop.


Obviously I am not condoning rape as I specifically stated that, of course, a man should never ignore "no".

However, many women DO have rape fantasies. Of course this doesn't mean that they want to be raped IRL.

Personally, I was kind of horrified to find this out. I couldn't even get aroused play acting such a thing. But it IS a thing and we can't pretend it isn't.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Luvher4life said:


> :grin2: Oh, I got it a long time ago. That's why the statistics I saw on TAM show that women are more likely to have an affair than men. It also seems that it is okay for the woman to hold old sexually (she has her reasons and they are always valid), but it is not okay for the man to hold out (he has reasons that have to be addressed, and are not valid past physical reasons).
> 
> Sexual manipulation is condoned by women (and acceptable), yet it is prohibited by men (therefore he has to change).
> 
> It's always the man can't see the woman's perspective, only his own, while a woman can see "both" sides? I don't think so.


Oh the irony. A woman shares her perspective, and the man puts his hands over his ears and sings "lalalalala", and then accuses her of putting all the blame on the man and daring to think that she knows both sides. Meanwhile, he proceeds to tell her what she *really* thinks because he is so confident in his ultimate answer to all things woman, and that he understands her ever so much better than she understands herself. And then wonders why she thinks he never listens to her or cares about her perspective.


----------



## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

always_alone said:


> Oh the irony. A woman shares her perspective, and the man puts his hands over his ears and sings "lalalalala", and then accuses her of putting all the blame on the man and daring to think that she knows both sides. Meanwhile, he proceeds to tell her what she *really* thinks because he is so confident in his ultimate answer to all things woman, and that he understands her ever so much better than she understands herself. And then wonders why she thinks he never listens to her or cares about her perspective.


And here is a prime example that women can't see a man's perspective...:grin2:


lalalalala...., did somebody say something?>


I don't, even for a moment, profess that I know women better than they know themselves, but when the shoe is on the other foot?

Case in point...0


----------



## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

FWIW, there are times when I do understand my wife better than she does. It's rare, but it does happen. Of course, you do get to know a person after almost 20 years... She is a WONDERFUL woman!


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
If I knew the answer to that, I wouldn't be complaining here.

Leave
Cheat
Live like a monk

(I guess "rape" is in principal an option but obviously not an acceptable one)




tech-novelist said:


> And when the weekend comes and goes, and the next weekend comes and goes, but somehow the magic moment never arrives? Then what should a man do?


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
nothing wrong with play-rape between consenting partners.

The question is what you are suggesting when the "no" is real. I assume that at that point you agree that the man has to stop. 






Buddy400 said:


> Obviously I am not condoning rape as I specifically stated that, of course, a man should never ignore "no".
> 
> However, many women DO have rape fantasies. Of course this doesn't mean that they want to be raped IRL.
> 
> Personally, I was kind of horrified to find this out. I couldn't even get aroused play acting such a thing. But it IS a thing and we can't pretend it isn't.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Luvher4life said:


> And here is a prime example that women can't see a man's perspective...:grin2:
> 
> 
> lalalalala...., did somebody say something?>
> ...


No, but the person you were agreeing with wholeheartedly about how women are supposedly never responsible has said many, many, many times that he knows the truth about women that women are either too stupid to know or too deceitful to admit..

Meanwhile, you completely ignored a couple of posts that said expliclty that women are guilty of the same types of bad behaviours that result in the same sorts of bad consequences as men.

So, from where I sit, you will blame all women for blaming men for everything, and deliberately ignore evidence to the contrary that is sitting just a short post away.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

@PAPS18 The following is my attempt to break out of the kneejerk "venting" commiseration and distill some of the advice you're receiving. 

The essence of the "alpha" behavior recommended to you is a transparent, self-assured equanimity toward life. It's not some appeal to chest-beating insensitivity, bossiness, aggression or rape.

NS recommended some posts by MEM and BadSanta. I think this is probably because they appear to handle intramarital problems with grace and wit. (I'd note that I've also seen them vent sometimes--I think that should get more of a pass than it sometimes does, IF it is being done privately and doesn't inform your interactions with your partner) 

So, you don't literally pout anymore...great! But are you always stolidly serious when confronting difficulties with your wife? Do you trot out long jeremiads and inexorable logic to bring her around to your POV? Do you let her set the tone and frame of your conversations? Do you mask and efface aspects of yourself to avoid conflict?

Counterpoint: can you think of any times or situations in which your wife was upset or irritated with some behavior or action, and instead of being earnest and contrite OR defensive ("beta") you responded by doing just as you liked while being impish and incorrigible in a way that made her break out in a smile in spite of herself? (Perhaps you've even heard her say something like, "I just can't stay mad at you" while laughing...)

It can be patronizing to talk in terms of "lizard brains," yet there is a kernel of validity there: people with a deep aversion to something aren't often swayed by left-brained argumentation, threats, or an aggrieved posture. They get defensive and entrenched instead. Yet those same people are often more influenced than they might like to admit by an alchemical combination of confidence, playful humor, and persistence. 

It's difficult to prescribe this kind of thing without it sounding like we're telling you to become an inconsiderate jerk, or to sexually assault your wife. It's a thing you have to calibrate, which is why I'm asking you to search your own history for clues. I'm with OliviaG in that you don't ever have to stop being "beta" in the sense of being considerate, responsible, caring or sincere in general... but you do have to stop acting butthurt and overly earnest and unreasonably accommodating--not because you're wrong, *but because it's unattractive*. 

The key element of nonchalant humor is an atavistic throwback to the obnoxious, teasing boys on the K-5 playground who both annoyed the girls and got most of their attention. In a lot of ways we never leave that schoolyard behind. Unflappable humor implies you're comfortable in your skin regardless of the circumstance, that you won't allow your mood to be dictated just because someone else is pissy, that you're willing to reframe the exchange on your own terms, and that you aren't afraid of annoying her with your truths. 

At the same time, it makes your defiance and persistence "safe" because you are having fun rather than being sullen, threatening or aggressive. Instead of putting her back on her heels with accusations, you're inviting her to join the dance and have fun _with_ you. You're now leading instead of supplicating. All those things are highly attractive on a subliminal level.

I think you should pay attention to those who are advising you to initiate with your wife and "not take no for an answer." Do it playfully and persistently and entirely without apology: This is who I am and this (intimacy with my beautiful wife) is what I want. Brush aside protestations, but if you get a hard NO, stop, smile, and calmly do something else. Then try again, and again. 

If you masturbate to relieve your tension, don't bother to hide it or justify it. Don't be drawn into arguments from authority & precedent, nor let yourself become angry, any more than a river gets angry about flowing around a rock in its path. For a change, become the vexing yet compelling riddle that _she_ has to solve.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Phil Anders said:


> The key element of nonchalant humor is an atavistic throwback to the obnoxious, teasing boys on the K-5 playground who both annoyed the girls and got most of their attention. In a lot of ways we never leave that schoolyard behind.


Yes, Athol Kay points this out also, when he says something like "treat her like you would have teased a schoolgirl" (I can't find the exact quote but that is pretty close).


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Luvher4life said:


> That may be the way she (or most) would view it, but at least he wouldn't be hiding it. Remember, she gets upset about that, too. YES, it would be SO much better if she would just *HELP* in some way, but with it being a physical need that is not being met, what difference does it make? It is a drastic measure by a desperate man, and his needs need to be made known loud and clear.


If he "takes matters into his own hands" so to speak, it's obvious that he doesn't NEED any "help"!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> Yes, Athol Kay points this out also, when he says something like "treat her like you would have teased a schoolgirl" (I can't find the exact quote but that is pretty close).


Humor works great if the LD partner is sitting on the fence so to speak. However, consistent rejection and apathy towards intimacy may be pointing to issues way too deep to be addressed in such a way.

I consider myself an incredibly funny person, truly gifted in the verbal art of comedy. It runs in the family. Yet dealing with a seriously sexually repressed individual this humor absolutely fails to connect. It worked great in the college dating scene aeons ago, and it occasionally works now - think BadSanta's suggestions- but a stressed out LD person sees this joviality and resents you even more for being jovial.

Such methods work if there's no innate emotional constipation to deal with. If there is.... That has been my experience at least.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> nothing wrong with play-rape between consenting partners.


Nothing wrong with it. I just can't do it.



richardsharpe said:


> The question is what you are suggesting when the "no" is real. I assume that at that point you agree that the man has to stop.


Of course.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> For many women though, that would be viewed as a threat: have sex or I divorce you. For many men, making such a statement would feel like threatening for sex.


First, it's not said like that. It's said like this "I am unwilling to live the rest of my life without a relationship that includes an active sex life with a loving partner". Of course, if worse comes to worse, you have to be willing to follow through with it.

One of several things will happen:

1) She will develop respect for you and that will increase her attraction to you. (NobodySpecial)

2) Understanding that she may be running the risk of losing you may well activate that part of her that was active when the relationship was new and uncertain. I wouldn't be terribly happy that I always had to "game" my wife instead of behaving naturally but you might consider it better than your current condition (Rich84)

3) This may finally break through the barrier she has that keeps her from understanding how important this is to you. Knowing this, she may be willing to put more effort into saving the marriage. (YoungAtHeart)

4) She see's it as a threat and is pissed off. You'll be moving on anyway, so it's not that big of a problem.

5) Nothing. In this case you better be prepared to follow through or your situation will be even worse.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> Humor works great if the LD partner is sitting on the fence so to speak. However, consistent rejection and apathy towards intimacy may be pointing to issues way too deep to be addressed in such a way.
> 
> I consider myself an incredibly funny person, truly gifted in the verbal art of comedy. It runs in the family. Yet dealing with a seriously sexually repressed individual this humor absolutely fails to connect. It worked great in the college dating scene aeons ago, and it occasionally works now - think BadSanta's suggestions- but a stressed out LD person sees this joviality and resents you even more for being jovial.
> 
> Such methods work if there's no innate emotional constipation to deal with. If there is.... That has been my experience at least.


Of course there is no guarantee that this (or anything) will work, but it's a pretty good approach.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's an excellent approach if the problem is within the envelope. If not it's rather pointless (ie to "detach etc" if your partner gives not a care as it is...)


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Vega said:


> If he "takes matters into his own hands" so to speak, it's obvious that he doesn't NEED any "help"!!


And so why should she bother? 

We have here pages and pages of lamenting how selfish and naive women are because they won't give, give, give, just because *he* feels like it. But why should she? Especially when it is made so clear that it is just a physical release that he provides for himself.

The trouble with all the alpha advice, IMHO, is that it is forever focused on detachment, when detachment is the problem.

Of course men should own their sexuality, and of course they have all the rights in the world to feel the way they do. But all this detachment, manipulation, controlling, entitlement just drives the wedge deeper.

OP, the advice to listen to your wife is not to say that you must prostrate yourself to her every whim or that it is your job to take the blame for everything. It is to point out that *she* is just as entitled to her view of her sexuality as you are to yours.

And the reality is that many women feel totally replaceable, and interchangeable sex toy by a man who hounds her for sex without appreciating her needs in this regard. And I mean *her* needs. Not just what a bunch of men have decided she should feel because they fancy themselves leaders and dominates.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And if her needs do not include sex....


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> And if her needs do not include sex....


That's the point, John. You don't get to decide for another person what their needs are. 

If you are lucky, clever, patient, you might be able to awaken something that was hitherto dormant or suppressed by conditioning. But not always, and only if you can find your way into their imagination.

And of course, you can try an manipulate them with guilt or fear, but then you run the risk of building even more resentment or having it backfire in a big way.

But in the end of all, you can't make other people be what you want them to be.

And honestly, if you (one) are spending all sorts of time proving to them how little you need or want them, they *will* start believing you. That's why I see the whole alpha game as an epic fail.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Agreed 100%.

The only disagreement is the covert contract of what marriage includes. And it does include sex.

Sooooooo....


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> Agreed 100%.
> 
> The only disagreement is the covert contract of what marriage includes. And it does include sex.
> 
> Sooooooo....


But there's NOTHING in the "covert contract" that says HOW OFTEN she's agreeing to have sex, or WHAT KIND of sex she's agreeing to. 

There's also nothing in the "contract" that says that _she_ MUST initiate. For all we know, the OP's wife may have been brought up to believe that the man is supposed to ALWAYS "lead" when it comes to sex.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

john117 said:


> Agreed 100%.
> 
> The only disagreement is the covert contract of what marriage includes. And it does include sex.
> 
> Sooooooo....



Strictly speaking not more than once...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Agreed 100%.
> 
> The only disagreement is the covert contract of what marriage includes. And it does include sex.
> 
> Sooooooo....


Soooooooo.......divorce her for breach of covert contract.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Soooooooo.......divorce her for breach of covert contract.


Marriage is the only contract where the penalties are applied without regard for who is doing the breaching.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Marriage is the only contract where the penalties are applied without regard for who is doing the breaching.


John has nothing to worry about. His wife makes wads of cash, and his kids have already flown the coop. No alimony or child support for him.

ETA: besides, if you are divorcing someone for lack of sex, you too are breaching contract, and not just a covert one. Or do we just conveniently forget about the "for better and for worse" part of it?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

always_alone said:


> ETA: besides, if you are divorcing someone for lack of sex, you too are breaching contract, and not just a covert one. Or do we just conveniently forget about the "for better and for worse" part of it?


Someone will probably come along and claim that the wife breached the contract by not having sex with him, and that sex falls under the promise to "love". 

But like I wrote before, there's nothing in the contract that says HOW OFTEN our spouse must have sex with us.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Many states do have a minimum per year... Look up constructive abandonment...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> John has nothing to worry about. His wife makes wads of cash, and his kids have already flown the coop. No alimony or child support for him.
> 
> ETA: besides, if you are divorcing someone for lack of sex, you too are breaching contract, and not just a covert one. Or do we just conveniently forget about the "for better and for worse" part of it?


John was hoping to get some alimony 

Seriously, without sex, and especially without sex intentionally, do we even have a marriage? I haven't forgotten the quote above but feel she has.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> Many states do have a minimum per year... Look up constructive abandonment...


Here ya go: 

"Even assuming the truth of all of the husband's evidence, it is uncontroverted that *his consistent and repeated demands for anal and oral sex, as well as his demands that his wife retire in erotic nightwear,* caused the parties' marriage to sour. The defendant accommodated the plaintiff's demands on occasion, but found that his favored forms of sex were either painful or unpleasant. *The defendant's wife's justifiable refusals to indulge the plaintiff and his unwillingness to respect her objections caused repeated arguments which eventually quashed this marriage of 22 years and caused the acrimony which was responsible for the defendant's general lack of desire for conventional sexual relations.* Notwithstanding this, the defendant expressed her wishes to continue in a loving marital relationship with the plaintiff, including normal sexual relations. Under these circumstances we are convinced that the defendant's spurning of sexual relations with her husband, in this atmosphere of coercion and lack of consideration, was not unjustified, and, accordingly, does not confer upon the plaintiff a cause of action for a divorce on the ground of constructive abandonment."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, some states DO hold that not having sex for a year or more while living under the same roof can be 'grounds' for divorce. However, there are _valid legal defenses _to the accusation. 

The courts seem to take the view that the only 'approved' form of sex is_ intercourse_. If the husband files a constructive abandonment suit against his wife for not giving him hand jobs, blow jobs or anal sex, it isn't going to fly. 

Also, if the couple is having sex at least a _few_ times per year, constructive abandonment probably wouldn't fly in that case either. 

Like I wrote earlier, there is nothing in the "covert contract" that says HOW MUCH or WHAT KIND of sex the couple "should" do. Having intercourse with your wife in a 'vanilla' way a few times a year is the minimum 'requirement'. Anything more than that is icing on (wedding?) cake.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Hang around this here forum long enough and you will see that its the basic intercourse that tends to be the issue of contention. I agree that starfish sex for five minutes meets once a month meets the legal requirement...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> John was hoping to get some alimony
> 
> Seriously, without sex, and especially without sex intentionally, do we even have a marriage? I haven't forgotten the quote above but feel she has.


From what I've heard of your story, I would have to agree that what you have isn't much of marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She does make sandwiches... At least


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Well, as you are already well aware, I don't think she is the only one contributing to the farce.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yea, it's time for the playoff round, "pass the blame".

Sorry, AA, I don't buy it. It takes two to tango but only one to destroy the relationship. 

It's like trying to blame sinking the Titanic on someone who forgot to turn off the water in a stateroom. Remember how I compared life to a minimax tree. Yea, you can influence the outcome by this action or that, in a normal situation. 

When you're dealing with people this detached from reality, you really don't have a tree. Just a phone pole, and regardless of what you choose to do, the outcome is the same.

So, if it makes one feel better, spread the blame


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Yea, it's time for the playoff round, "pass the blame".
> 
> Sorry, AA, I don't buy it. It takes two to tango but only one to destroy the relationship.
> 
> ...


I know you don't buy it, john, but it isn't even about blame spreading. It's about dynamics.

I get that living with someone with mental illness is not easy. I know I couldn't do it, and am certainly not suggesting you need to be a saint. And if you demonstrated even the slightest amount of compassion for her and the teeniest amount of humility for yourself, I'd be a whole lot more sympathetic to your cause.

But it sure seems that you are bent on prolonging the torture for as long as possible, and giving her as much grief as possible in the process. You drip contempt for her, and have never once (that I have seen) acknowledged that this contempt or the stupid games you play with her head, deliberately humiliating her, pushing her buttons and exploiting her insecurities could ever have any sort of negative effect. And I'm sorry, but that's more like burning the lifeboats than leaving the tap running.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> And if you demonstrated even the slightest amount of compassion for her and the teeniest amount of humility for yourself, I'd be a whole lot more sympathetic to your cause.


Compassion was not walking out on her in 2007 when it all started to go bad... Unless one has unlimited supply of compassion (like Bernie Sanders has of our tax money ) eventually compassion runs out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I know quite a few women who manage to maintain happy marriages and successful (high earning) careers. I don't see any trend like what you describe, personally.
> 
> Do you think that you have certain expectations of a wife that mutually exclude career success and/or financial independence? That kind of career success usually means having to make choices that require a spouse to sacrifice something, at least temporarily. Do you see that sort of sacrifice as something a man shouldn't have to do, and therefore you resent a woman who requires that of a husband?
> 
> A friend of mine's son has told her that he wants a wife that "isn't smarter than him" and "won't challenge him". This was quite a shock to her to learn that other girlfriends he had dated he had broken up with because they were too smart or ambitious (in his eyes). I think he has a remarkably clear-headed grasp on what he wants in a wife. Probably most men wouldn't even admit thinking that way to themselves, much less to other people. But I wonder if some really do feel that way underneath it all, whether they are aware of it or not.


Olivia, I raised my daughters as a near single parent so that my wife could focus on her career. I've been in the same company for 31 years, while she changes jobs every few years. I outright told my boss I could not travel much - hurting my chances for advancement - because wifey gets separation anxiety - partially true, I didn't trust her being alone with the girls for more than a day or two). 

It's not success I'm concerned with, but sh!tty attitude...

Both of us have similar education, and after her latest job change she'll catch up to what I'm making. I'd rather see her earn half and be there for us. Fat chance, I know.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Compassion was not walking out on her in 2007 when it all started to go bad... Unless one has unlimited supply of compassion (like Bernie Sanders has of our tax money ) eventually compassion runs out.


It isn't compassion to stay with someone because you don't trust how they are going to spend their money when you are gone.

I would also think that ompassion involves setting someone free if all you have left ifor them is contempt and hatred.

Compassion is also not finite in the way a pie or tax dollars may be. It is more like the wind, or a natural spring, where as long as you don't pave it over it keeps bubbling up with fresh water.

Note, though, that I am not saying that this means that you have an obligation to be her selfless caregiver and endure whatever she dishes out. It just means you really ought not be trying to drive her even crazier because you are pissed off and want vengeance.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It is, however, compassion, to stay with someone knowing full well that they have zero chance of making it a month on their own.

At least I have some feelings left, bad as they are. She had an emotional void, and it's all normal for her. You set someone like that "free"... Never mind, you mentioned the marriage vows a couple posts earlier, epic lolz...

I would suggest looking beyond the obvious low hanging fruit and into the substance of things. A bit of empathy would also help.

I have no need to drive her further into the nuthouse. She's fully capable of doing so on her own. If I wanted revenge, I could simply walk out.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> It is, however, compassion, to stay with someone knowing full well that they have zero chance of making it a month on their own.
> 
> At least I have some feelings left, bad as they are. She had an emotional void, and it's all normal for her. You set someone like that "free"... Never mind, you mentioned the marriage vows a couple posts earlier, epic lolz...
> 
> ...


Why all the humiliation games then? Why the manipulation? 

You seem to think she is oblivious to the way you feel about her, and the way you and your daughters run her down. But I guarantee you she is not. She is BPD, and BPD are hypersensitive to these slights. She knows where she stands in your eyes, and given that, I totally understand why she is not particularly motivated to work on anything for your benefit.

IOW, I totally disagree. These bad feelings you have for her are not some sort of proof of your moral superiority or "contribution" to the relationship. They are the exact opposite. Staying with her is no favour, it is all about your finances and condescension.

But I know you'll never agree, at least not until you finally cut the ties.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The mind games and humiliation are things of the past. Useful devices that proved her intentions - and my own purpose in her view - to me. 

My daughters talk to her less frequently than they talk to me. She occasionally complains but then the only time she contacts them is after she sees a bad movie on Netflix where some coed ends up missing or some such.

She knows where I stand with her and vice versa. I'm done with my moves. I am puzzled about "my benefit" tho... She has to gain far more than I do if she ever attempted to work on the relationship. Me? I don't care. Haven't in a while.

I'm not doing it to be morally superior. Morality is a human construct I do not subscribe to. You seem to have forgotten her contributions to this mess, her 90%, focusing on my reactionary 10%. I have no issue admitting my own wrongs. But as I said a few posts back, those are what EE's call do-not-cares. You have twigs sticking out of the phone pole, and whether the twigs are there or not, the phone pole will go its own way. 

There's much of the saga you don't know, BTW. Still twigs.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

To return to the original topic, naive or selfish.... I don't think one can say it's only one or only the other. A purely naive partner receives enough behavioral clues / cues from society and media that makes it difficult to accept that "but starfish sex once a year is sufficient"... Likewise, a purely selfish individual that likes to control intimacy for this reason or that requires a very healthy dose of sexual naivete to accept that their partner will be fine with it. So, it invariably ends up being a mix. 

The only exception I would make is for the case where the individual lacks the emotional bandwidth to understand the implication of their choice. Not necessarily because they're naive. But because of deficiency in emotional processing abilities. 

Case in point. Over the last few months I've withdrawn more or less completely from marriage, opting for the challenge of Angry Birds and such . My wife has sensed this and often comments about me wasting time. Not for a single minute does it occur to her that this is simply what she has done. This all happened in a very civilized, very low profile manner. She has her activities and I have mine. Nothing intersects.

Yet it's not naivete. The issue is not there in her mind. Just today she was talking about all her friends from her country who married women 10+ years younger as per custom there. She was trying to understand why . Then she berated the one exception, a very wealthy cougar-y orthodontist who divorced her first husband and moved to Florida with #2, a guy 10 years her junior. To her this was equally befuddling.

So, before you proclaim one option or another, ensure you can process the information properly..


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I think the question needs to be changed because there are so many other options to choose from. Limiting it to naive and selfish is to privilege one perspective over another.

-loss of attraction
-loss of love
-accumulated resentment
-turned off 
-reasonable response to toxic treatment or abuse


And no doubt there is more.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yet naive or selfish are the root causes for choosing one course of action over another...

Consider "loss of attraction"... Naive Jane stops putting out rather than confronting Piggie John about his weight. Naivete galore.

Or the ever popular "resentment"... Selfish Bob stops being intimate because he resents Sharp-tongued Sally for criticizing him in front of his golf buddies. Thinking of himself only, Bob dooms the marriage...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

No, root cause is desire or fear...

Which you might argue is selfish. But then it also applies to *all* of us.

There are many much deeper explanations for those scenarios.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some desire and some fear are natural... But the mind can sort them out. As you said it's more than that. I agree.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Phil Anders said:


> @PAPS18 The following is my attempt to break out of the kneejerk "venting" commiseration and distill some of the advice you're receiving.
> 
> The essence of the "alpha" behavior recommended to you is a transparent, self-assured equanimity toward life. It's not some appeal to chest-beating insensitivity, bossiness, aggression or rape.
> 
> ...


this is a great approach and in my view pretty much nails the correct attitude.

the only thing that I would add is that my experience has been that the "playful and persistent" initiation in the face of rejection can backfire.

you must be realistic about your past history with rejection and how much additional rejection will likely "trigger" you.

your wife-- who knows you better than anyone-- may be waiting for that moment of exposure when rejection reveals your newfound confidence to be an act. 

for this approach to work, you have to be 100% bullet proof to rejection. given your history, you understandably might actually be quite sensitive to rejection, not immune to it.

this does not make you a bad person. it is hard being rejected over and over again. sometimes enough is enough.

personally, I believe the better course of action is to focus on genuinely finding something (or really several things) you'd rather be doing than be with your wife.

then you can ACTUALLY be carefree and playful around her because you are ACTUALLY INDIFFERENT as to whether she is interested or not.

this is easier said than done as well, but the nice thing about this path is that if you fail, your failure will be in private, so it is easier to regroup and keep pushing along. 

compare this to maintaining your smile and pretend confidence as you are rejected again and again.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> That's the point, John. You don't get to decide for another person what their needs are.
> 
> If you are lucky, clever, patient, you might be able to awaken something that was hitherto dormant or suppressed by conditioning. But not always, and only if you can find your way into their imagination.
> 
> ...


Just pointing out this holds true from the perspective of both the LD and the HD.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Just pointing out this holds true from the perspective of both the LD and the HD.


key insight here.

first it is painful that the other person does not want you as much as you want her.

gradually, if you can learn to think of it in the right way, you may acclimate to this pain.

then you may start to wonder why you should want something so much from someone who is not interested. Is it really all that great?

particularly in light of the expected value which is greatly reduced by the likelihood of it actually occurring in any individual circumstance.

it becomes a bit like playing the lottery. fun to buy a ticket once in a while if you happen to be in the 7-11, but not really worth going out of your way for and not something to hang your hopes on.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I haven't been able to figure out what the issue is between you and your wife. You have intimated that she is mentally ill in other threads and here where you say you don't trust her alone with your children, but say that your relationship went sour in 2007 (which would be an unusual time for her to become mentally ill all of a sudden) and that you wish she'd be there for you still (which is generally too much to hope for if a spouse is mentally ill). So, do you just intimate such things to disparage her character or is there something to it? I have no idea.
> 
> You raised your daughters, you feel, as a single parent. There are plenty of married women who feel that they raised their kids as a single parent would due to husband's career. Do you resent that you felt you had to do that? Was it too much of a sacrifice for her to ask of you and you resent her for it?
> 
> ...


Ah, a newcomer to the saga . Our marriage was decent until 2006-2007 or so... Then a series of unfortunate events caused her to, in scientific terms, go bezerk. Adult onset BPD, not quite as common as the regular variety. 

Is she as smart as my cat? Hard to tell. She has a few degrees in Applied Mathematics and puts them into good use as an analytics consultant. But street smarts wise my cat wins hands down. Also no emotional intelligence to speak of. 

She was never the motherly type. But my daughters are the best thing that happened to me so I don't begrudge her. She is simply too abstract to deal with things like pinkeye or first date advise 

Where we are now? The girls are in college and I'm counting the days till my expected exit in end of May 2017. She knows of my plans and does not think they'll come to fruition.

What do I want from her? I want the quirky Asian young lady I married, confident, funny, involved, and self reliant. And not an emotional zombie. What I got is someone who is none of those.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Borderline personality disorder. I suspect a few other things too. Triggered by various events in 2006 like job issues and a family death... Very long saga. No medication, no counseling for herself, easiest menopause ever. Grew up in a theocracy and most people in her immediate family have mental health issues.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> A friend of mine's son has told her that he wants a wife that "isn't smarter than him" and "won't challenge him". This was quite a shock to her to learn that other girlfriends he had dated he had broken up with because they were too smart or ambitious (in his eyes). I think he has a remarkably clear-headed grasp on what he wants in a wife. Probably most men wouldn't even admit thinking that way to themselves, much less to other people. But I wonder if some really do feel that way underneath it all, whether they are aware of it or not.


I have never run into that issue because I've never met a woman who was smarter than I am, but if I had, I'm not sure I would have wanted to get involved with her. I want a companion, not a competitor.

Of course I wouldn't want to be with an unintelligent woman either; intelligent conversation is a necessity for me.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

My wife is way smarter than me in many areas, signified among other ways by her masters vs. my bs degree. Does not bother me in the least, there are non-education related areas where I shine also. 

Where I do think it might make a difference is in earnings, if I made considerably less than her that might have some psychological impact. I'd hope not but maybe. Being the breadwinner tends to be important to men...


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, exactly. Her job has certain advantages that allowed her to prioritize home life a bit more than work life, comp aligned with that but she still makes a solid income. No complaints there.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

anonmd said:


> My wife is way smarter than me in many areas, signified among other ways by her masters vs. my bs degree. Does not bother me in the least, there are non-education related areas where I shine also.
> 
> Where I do think it might make a difference is in earnings, if I made considerably less than her that might have some psychological impact. I'd hope not but maybe. Being the breadwinner tends to be important to men...


Hmmm ... never really thought of smarts/earning power when it came to my W, but I definitely don't feel that smarts necessarily translates into earning power (I know some dummies who do well lol)

When I first got married my W and I made about the same. Within the first 3 or 4 years she was out earning me, didn't bother me at all. Eventually I blew way by her, but would be more than happy if she had matched me stride for stride lol.

My wife is very intelligent, but between the two of us I am more intelligenter


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I'm just curious: why would you feel you had to compete with her? Compete for what?


Compete for intellectual mastery, which some highly intelligent people do. 

But actually when I think about it, I don't know how common this is among people in my bracket and above. I've met only a few of them and they have been pretty laid-back; the combative types I've met are below that range. So maybe that wouldn't be a problem if it ever happened.

Thanks for the opportunity for reflection.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Oxymoron.
> 
> You can't really be "beta" if you have the kind of "bucks" that makes for a nice, comfortable middle-class life.


Sorry, but this is completely wrong. There are plenty of men who make plenty of money and are so beta that they could barely get laid in a *****house.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Compete for intellectual mastery? As in what, like have an "I'm smarter than you" p!ssing contest with your spouse?
> 
> If that's what you're talking about then I think that's more a marker for arrogance than for intelligence. Why would an intelligent person choose to engage his/her spouse in that manner?


Because that's the way they are. I did have some of this with my first wife, but as suggested in my previous post, I agree that it's more of a personality issue than an intelligence issue.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Compete for intellectual mastery? As in what, like have an "I'm smarter than you" p!ssing contest with your spouse?
> 
> If that's what you're talking about then I think that's more a marker for arrogance than for intelligence. Why would an intelligent person choose to engage his/her spouse in that manner?


My experience is that there really are a lot of men who need to feel they are smarter than the woman they are with, and are very easily made to feel insecure if they think she might be more capable or more intelligent.

I have heard more than one guy say explicitly that he looks for a woman who isn't as clever, who he can teach, who will look to him for guidance.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> My experience is that there really are a lot of men who need to feel they are smarter than the woman they are with, and are very easily made to feel insecure if they think she might be more capable or more intelligent.
> 
> I have heard more than one guy say explicitly that he looks for a woman who isn't as clever, who he can teach, who will look to him for guidance.


That may be explicitly true in some cases, but I think they more likely mean they don't want a partner who acts smarter than they are, and honestly I think that goes both ways. Women don't particularly like their husbands acting like know it all any more than men like their wives acting the same way.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Oxymoron.
> 
> You can't really be "beta" if you have the kind of "bucks" that makes for a nice, comfortable middle-class life.


I am living proof that you are incorrect.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> I have heard more than one guy say explicitly that he looks for a woman who isn't as clever, who he can teach, who will look to him for guidance.


Sounds more like they are looking for an employee and not a partner. No thanks, I have my hands full all day dealing with employees, couldn't imagine coming home to that as well ...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Sounds more like they are looking for an employee and not a partner. No thanks, I have my hands full all day dealing with employees, couldn't imagine coming home to that as well ...


Nobody wants to come home to an employee----or a boss.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'll take you guys' word for it.
> 
> All I can say is that I feel a bit worshipful towards anyone who would lovingly provide me with a comfortable life.
> 
> ...


Many women say that they would feel that way.

I'm sure that some women even *do *feel that way.

But there are certainly plenty of women who *say *they would feel that way but end up feeling anything but worshipful. This wouldn't be too much of a problem except that it's impossible for a man to tell which is which in advance, and he is in for a world of hurt if he guesses wrong.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I see.
> 
> One hint, not a sure deal; nothing is.
> 
> ...


Yes, a woman like that might be (and remain) grateful.

But unfortunately the risks of marriage for a man in the USA today are too high for it to be a good decision even in this case. This is very unfortunate for both parties: the woman who really would be (and remain) grateful, and the man who would like to believe that she would be (and remain) grateful, but can't take the chance that she would change her mind and ruin his life.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I see.
> 
> One hint, not a sure deal; nothing is.
> 
> ...


The men who complain that no one finds them attractive, no one wants to date them, they need to see the other women besides the conventional beauties. Many threads on TAM talks about how women have the upper hand in dating. This is because most men are looking for the models, the supposed top notch. Maybe people need to look at who is suitable for them, not for who is the most attractive, there is where you can find the gems.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Yes, a woman like that might be (and remain) grateful.
> 
> But unfortunately the risks of marriage for a man in the USA today are too high for it to be a good decision even in this case. This is very unfortunate for both parties: the woman who really would be (and remain) grateful, and the man who would like to believe that she would be (and remain) grateful, but can't take the chance that she would change her mind and ruin his life.


Maybe the man who is so worried about paying alimony and child care would do well to chose a career woman who made a 6 figure income, so maybe he could collect alimony.

Game changer...


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