# Does she deserve to say she loves me?



## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

I have been thinking about this for a while, the lack of leverage that a HD person (usually the man) has in the marriage with a LD person (usually the woman). It seems that the only options are divorce, infidelity, or just living in misery and feeling unloved.

It seems that other than threatening divorce or infidelity, the only leverage the HD has is to tell the LD spouse that he (in most cases) feels that she (in most cases) doesn't love him. Some people may consider that to be no leverage at all but if the wife cares about the fact that her husband doesn't feel loved, then perhaps behavior can change. I have done this but not to the extent that I want to. I want my wife to know that I feel in the deepest way that she does not love me. Not that she doesn't care about me (she does), not that she isn't concerned about my welfare (she is), but that she doesn't love me the way a wife should love a husband. Great meals, a clean house, even spending time together cannot be enough to make me feel loved by someone who is supposed to be my life partner.

Sometimes it is hard to tell your spouse directly and forcefully that you feel she doesn't love you, especially when she is being nice and seems to care. I have told her over and over that I cannot feel loved without sharing intimacy with her, the way we did for years and now have not for years. My wife tells me she loves me. I want to tell her to stop saying that. I don't want to hear it when she continues to withhold intimacy. I feel betrayed, that she has broken her vows, and that she doesn't deserve to say she loves me. I want her to think about the fact that when you do not care about your partner's happiness, then you do not deserve to say that you love him.

I realize that if someone doesn't care, then none of this matters. But will a woman be affected by the fact that her husband does not feel loved and feels that she does not deserve to say she loves him?

For me, this has gone on so long that I don't want to hear her say, "I love you." I want her to get into bed with me and show me without words. 

Is there any leverage in saying to your spouse, "Don't tell me you love me if you cannot show me in the way that I need?" Has anyone seen this have any effect on the LD spouse? I know that I wouldn't want to be in a marriage if I felt my spouse didn't feel loved. I would do everything I could to make her feel loved and if that wasn't enough, I would let her go.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Maybe. I think you are on the right track. How can a spouse ignore a very important and in most cases a vital emotional need of the other spouse and still love them?

My husband ignored most of my important emotional needs for years and I truly believed he did not love me, but was staying married to protect his assets. It was until I essentially said those exact words to him, on several occasions that it finally sunk in.

"How can you pretend that you love me when you can't show me you love me, you can't make me feel loved?"

Your wife is treating you like a best friend and room mate. So call her on it, each and every time. And don't let her think everything between you two is peachy when it isn't. This doesn't mean to pout or withdraw, but don't be affectionate, don't cuddle and kiss, don't rub her shoulders. That's what lovers do, not what room mates do.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

When did the level of intimacy change in your marriage?

I think it's good you phrased this in that way. At the end of the day you do no feel loved by her.

I imagine she feels she loves you, feels it in her heart and her head and does things for you that she feels illustrate her love.

I think you have as good a chance as any, appealing to he on an emotional level.

It reminds me of how I felt as a child. From a very large family, the oldest child, and never had the full attention of my parents. They could feel love for me all day long in their hearts. They could provide a home for me and feed and clothe me, and certainly they did all those things. However, I just wanted to spend time with them. I wanted their full attention. I wanted to have a real conversation. That's what love was to me. 

When someone is mature enough to spell it out for you - I need your time, I need your attention, then you step up and show them in that way. If you do care.

We have a poster here, Big Mama, who has made me consider the other side of this situation. 

If your wife has sexual abuse in her past that is going to change my bottom line on this but otherwise I think you are being reasonable in your requests.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

What are her reasons for withholding intimacy?

Did you gain a ton of weight, lose your job, let yourself go? Bad breath? 

There has to be a reason. Attack the cause.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks for the responses.

Anon Pink- good advice. You said it finally sunk in. Did it create change in your husband?

Miss Scarlett- no past sexual abuse but there was emotional abuse by a relative when she was a teenager. My wife has said that when she gets hurt, it is hard for her to heal. This certainly is a big part of the problem.

bandit.45- not much has changed physically. We both work out and are in pretty good shape. I have asked her if she no longer finds me attractive. She said she does find me attractive.

She got hurt when during the financial crisis, I made some comments about some risky investments she pushed our family into and which caused us great financial harm. I was against it from the start but my comments were not "I told you so" but along the lines of "We need to get out of this." I do not think this is the problem any longer. She since has had some health issues and no longer desires sex. But the bigger issue, I feel, is emotional, her inability to feel really close to me. I think her previous experiences have made her want to withdraw and that is damaging. I wish she could know the damage it has caused our marriage.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't think many LD spouses miss sex or think about it. I'm sure most feel life is just fine the way it is. It probably never occurs to them that their spouse feels unloved since they think other things are equally as important as sex. No, they don't get it. So telling a LD spouse you don't feel loved might be an eye-opener for them. Try it.

ETA: just read your recent post. Sounds like she's also lost her connection to you with her withdrawal.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Are you just mulling this over, that she might not deserve to say that she loves you? Or are you thinking of telling her this?

If you were to tell her that she does not deserve to say she loves you, I think it will have a terrible outcome. I get what you are saying but it's not going to help to tell her it in that way. 

How do her health issues impact her sex drive? Is it that she does not have desire, or is it that once the health issues got in the way it's not clear how to re-start your sex life again?

When you talk with her about this, does she express any desire to restart a sex life .. on any level?

What might help is for the two of you to go to a marriage counselor who is also a sex therapist. There are ways to get things back on track. A sex therapist can help you two out with it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Openminded said:


> I don't think many LD spouses miss sex or think about it. I'm sure most feel life is just fine the way it is. It probably never occurs to them that their spouse feels unloved since they think other things are equally as important as sex. No, they don't get it. So telling a LD spouse you don't feel loved might be an eye-opener for them. Try it.
> 
> ETA: *just read your recent post. Sounds like she's also lost her connection to you with her withdrawal*.


This is something that I was wondering about. Is it just sex? Or is the emotional connection broken? I would bet that the loss of emotional connection is the basis of the problem. 

For the OP... get the book "His Needs, Her Needs". Read it and see if your wife will read it as well.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I remember your story now. She is from a different country/culture, correct?


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Not only has she broken her vows, but she is in my mind commiting adultery. What's the difference between adultery and withholding sex? Nothing their both cheating the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tornado said:


> Not only has she broken her vows, but she is in my mind commiting adultery. What's the difference between adultery and withholding sex? Nothing their both cheating the marriage.


It is often not quite so simple as the person withholding sex is doing it for mean spirited reasons. 

The OP's wife is not here to tell us her side of things. She might have some very valid reasons to not want to have sex.. .it could be physical or emotional issues. It could be that she is not happy in the marriage cannot connect with him physically because there is something truly wrong. 

To accuse his wife of acting as badly as a person committing adultery when you little to no information about her side of the story is really pushing it.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Miss Scarlett- yes, you are right. My wife was born in Asia, came here as a teenager, was treated badly by a relative she lived with. I believe this has a lot to do with our situation now. We were very close for many years. I said some things that hurt her and she chose to withdraw, emotionally and physically. She is that way with people. She has many friends and when she gets hurt, she tends to withdraw. She knows I have made many sacrifices for her and I would like to be judged on my whole record, not a few comments made over so many years of marriage.

EleGirl- why do you think telling my wife that I don't feel that she loves me is such a bad idea? I have tried a soft approach to get closer to her and that has not worked. Not to be crude, but you cannot be all carrot and no stick forever. I am not using the big stick of threatening divorce or finding another partner. But I want her to know that her withholding intimacy for so long has made me feel she does not love me. My only reason for leaving the marriage would be feeling unloved. Like I said before, I do not feel my wife deserves to say she loves me when I feel so unloved. I prefer not to hear it when I feel this way.

As far as counseling, my wife went for only a short time before dropping out. I continued to go on my own but her presence was needed. Asian culture is so resistant to counseling. I feel it could be very helpful but you have to be open to it.

I appreciate hearing the different perspectives.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

I tend to agree with EleGirl here - I don't think asking your wife not to tell you that she loves you would help your situation. I'm in a marriage with a ND husband who clearly loves me deeply but just doesn't want sex and intimacy. We both work from home and spend 24/7 together most of the time - we get on really well as house mates and as business partners, but we're not lovers. When I asked him to stop calling me 'lover' he was quite offended by that. I've told him that I don't feel loved several times and each time he reassures me that he loves me with all his heart and desires me but we have no physical relationship. I can tell from the way he treats me and the things he does for me that he does love me but without the physical intimacy, I, like you, just see that as a betrayal. I really don't think asking her to not say she loves you will help here. She does love you and you need to ask her to prove that by addressing your sexual problems - this is much easier said than done.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Doobie- thank you for sharing your experience. I, for one, am hoping that my wife would be offended. If she is, then maybe it will elicit change. Telling your spouse you don't feel loved seems to me about the only leverage a HD spouse has.
A man feels loved when his wife shares her body with him. Sexual fulfillment is his primary emotional need. I never felt that women viewed things the same way. Can women feel loved without physical intimacy? Based on what I read here, many can.
My original point is that if a spouse ignores an important emotional need and knows that because you have told them repeatedly, then they do not deserve to be able to say they love you. If they truly love you, maybe this (telling them not to say they love you) may serve as leverage to bring about change. I don't know if is true but am hoping it is true.
Doobie- what makes me feel it is different fir women is that you still feel that your husband loves you even without the physical intimacy. Most men will not feel that way, I believe.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

@Married but not happy - I know my husband loves me because he tells me so several times a day and he's worked hard on his anger issues which were frightening me at one point. I've seen him go from a guy who flies off the handle several ties a day to a guy who is trying his best never to raise his voice and shout about small things that annoy him. This is one of the things that demonstrates to me his love for me. However, we've had the discussion on our non existent sex life several times and each time I tell him how unloved, undesirable, humiliated, needy and desperate this makes me feel. So far, this just doesn't seem to have got through to him and the sex is becoming less frequent rather than more frequent. I believe he loves me, but in very much the same way in which he loves his mother or his daughter. Marriage is new to me in my fifties - I brought my kids up alone and was happy to do so. We got married because we both wanted to make vows to each other, I'm trying really hard to uphold my end of the bargain which is why I'm not considering leaving at the moment. However, I'm not willing to spend the rest of my life as a celibate and this leaves me without hope for the future. My advice to you would still be the same - rather than tell her not to say she loves you, try telling her again that the lack of sex means that your marriage is not a proper marriage and that you don't intend to remain celibate for the rest of your life.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Doobie- I do feel that my wife loves me but not as a wife should love a husband. It is not enough to feel loved like a brother or friend. Depriving someone of their most important emotional need means you do not love them (at least not romantic love) and no one in a marriage wants to be loved like a brother ir friend.
I have done what you said, told my wife that I will not tolerate this forever and that our marriage is not normal or healthy. It has had little effect. That is why I feel she does not deserve to say she loves me. If your husband loves you like his mother or daughter, I do not feel he deserves to say it either. I am certain you did not enter marriage to be treated that way.
If what I say to my wife is hurtful, then so be it. It has to be that way to have any chance of eliciting change. It is far less huttful than being treated like a stranger, which is what I feel.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

Married but not happy said:


> Doobie- I do feel that my wife loves me but not as a wife should love a husband. It is not enough to feel loved like a brother or friend. Depriving someone of their most important emotional need means you do not love them (at least not romantic love) and no one in a marriage wants to be loved like a brother ir friend.
> I have done what you said, told my wife that I will not tolerate this forever and that our marriage is not normal or healthy. It has had little effect. That is why I feel she does not deserve to say she loves me. If your husband loves you like his mother or daughter, I do not feel he deserves to say it either. I am certain you did not enter marriage to be treated that way.
> If what I say to my wife is hurtful, then so be it. It has to be that way to have any chance of eliciting change. It is far less huttful than being treated like a stranger, which is what I feel.


No, I didn't enter into marriage expecting it to be like this and I'm quite depressed about it. However, what I was trying to point out is that saying and doing are totally different. My husband says he loves me over and over and he shows me that he loves me in most ways. I just wish that he desired me - I'm not unattractive, I have a great body for my age, I'm kind, considerate and caring. However, I'm beginning to lose confidence in myself (which is very unlike me) being in this marriage. I find it hurtful when he does say he loves me because he obviously doesn't love me as a lover, so I know exactly where you're coming from with this. Maybe you and I should both ask our partners to stop saying "I love you" and instead say "I'm very fond of you in a platonic way"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Married but not happy said:


> EleGirl- why do you think telling my wife that I don't feel that she loves me is such a bad idea?


Go back and read what I wrote.


EleGirl said:


> Are you just mulling this over, that she might not* deserve *to say that she loves you? Or are you thinking of telling her this?
> 
> If you were to tell her that she does not *deserve* to say she loves you, I think it will have a terrible outcome. I get what you are saying but it's not going to help to tell her it in that way.


The was saying that telling her that she does not DESERVE to say that she loves you is a bad idea.

Telling her that you feel unloved by her is more than reasonable.

You seem to miss another important point. There is a difference between LD and a person withholding sex. When a person is LD it’s generally caused by hormonal and/or other health issues. When a person is withholding sex, it’s usually caused by anger, frustrations, hurts, etc. The two problems have different solutions. Until you isolate the issues you will not get to the bottom of this.



Married but not happy said:


> I have tried a soft approach to get closer to her and that has not worked. Not to be crude, but you cannot be all carrot and no stick forever. I am not using the big stick of threatening divorce or finding another partner. But I want her to know that her withholding intimacy for so long has made me feel she does not love me. My only reason for leaving the marriage would be feeling unloved. Like I said before, I do not feel my wife deserves to say she loves me when I feel so unloved. I prefer not to hear it when I feel this way.


My advice is that you stop with the word ‘deserves’. From what you have told us, you have said and/or done things that hurt her very badly. She has not gotten over that. Once a person says/does hurtful things it can be hard for someone to get over them. Perhaps she feels that you do not deserve her love because you have hurt her very badly in the past. It sounds to me like the two of you are getting into a piss contest over who deserves to be loved .. or whose love deserves to be recognized.


Married but not happy said:


> As far as counseling, my wife went for only a short time before dropping out. I continued to go on my own but her presence was needed. Asian culture is so resistant to counseling. I feel it could be very helpful but you have to be open to it.


From my experience, going to counseling on my own, even though my spouse refused to go was very helpful. It helped not only me but our relationship.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Married but not happy,

How many hours a week to you and your wife spend doing date-like things, just the two of you?

This is an important question.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

doobie- yes, maybe we should phrase it that way, whatever works. I just think it can send a powerful message about the depth of your unhappiness when you say to your partner, "I know you think you love me but my emotional needs are not even close to being met. I have tried to talk with you about it on many occasions but not much has changed. You are doing things that you think are showing your love but they are not what is most important to me. If you feel that what I ask for is unreasonable in a loving relationship, then we have to discuss that. I am very unhappy and I prefer not to hear you say you love me when it is apparent to me that my happiness is not important to you." Is that harsh? Maybe some will think so but it is a lot less harsh than threatening divorce or to look for another partner. Something has to be done to shake things up, otherwise the status quo will remain.

EleGirl- I do not think the word "deserve" is too harsh or inappropriate for this discussion. I am not talking about using the word when talking to my wife but for the purposes of this discussion, it is okay, I feel. I feel that saying I feel unloved is not enough. It will just cause my wife to cook better meals, clean the house better, etc., not do what is important to me. I have asked my wife if it she thinks it is unreasonable for me to want intimacy with her. She says it is not. She needs to hear that I think she doesn't love me, not just that I feel unloved. I think there is a difference.

We have started to spend more time together and she has made an effort there. I give her credit for that but it has not led to intimacy. She works nights so we try to spend time together when we can. I feel the real problem is that my wife is afraid to be emotionally close. This is a reaction to her teenage years when she was hurt. She does not understand that love involves forgiveness. I have done a lot for her, including helping her through school and being there for many personal crises. I do not believe in keeping score but you need to get something back form your partner. We were emotionally close once and that is why I keep trying to get that feeling back. I did go to counseling on my own for quite a while. But only so much can be accomplished without a willing partner. I take responsibility for my mistakes and pain I have caused. I only ask that she do the same. I do not like living in what seems like a "phony" marriage.


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## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

Married but not happy said:


> I want my wife to know that I feel in the deepest way that she does not love me...
> 
> ...I don't want to hear it when she continues to withhold intimacy. I feel betrayed, that she has broken her vows, and that she doesn't deserve to say she loves me. I want her to think about the fact that when you do not care about your partner's happiness, then you do not deserve to say that you love him.


MarriedButNotHappy:

I think you are right on track in your original post. I feel exactly the same way as you do when my wife refuses, avoids or ignores intimacy but says I love you. Here's the thing: there are so many factors that go into lack of intimacy, that no one can diagnose them here. However, the first to look at are harboring resentment, sexual trauma (even if long ago childhood) and medical issues such as low (or in the case of many women, nonexistent) testosterone. Those issues and many others have a variety of strategies to address, manage and resolve. 

BUT the primary issue that you write about above is something that is VERY VERY real to men, but something that women almost universally cannot comprehend-- how important sexual intimacy is connected to the man's feeling of being loved in a relationship. 

My advice is this: say exactly what you wrote above to your wife. I would rephrase thusly:

"My love, we need to talk, and I have something very important to say to you, and I want you to take me seriously. Consider what I am saying, and realize I am not saying this to hurt you, but I am saying this because I want you to really know me, to understand who I am I and how I feel. Hon, I want you to know that I feel in the very deepest way that you truly do not love me. It pains me to hear you say "I love you" when you continue to withhold intimacy. In fact, I can no longer bear to hear you say "I love you" without intimacy. I feel betrayed. I feel the same way as if you had broken your vows, and I do not believe you can truthfully say, " I love you" with no intimacy between us. The words "I love you" and physical intimacy are intrinsically connected, and inseparable. I need you to think about whether you really love me or not when you are not willing to address our lack of intimacy, which is a fundamental and inseparable part of my happiness."

Now it is very very important when and how you say the above. Be sure to pick a moment when your wife is not stressed, is not tired, is not physically down and there is no chance for interruption. Basically, make sure its when she is in a good mood and no kids. I like to have these discussions after we have shared a time of something I know she likes to do and makes her feel good (and connected to me)-- whatever that may be for your wife. Also, and this is most imperative: you must simply say the above matter-of-fact without ANY emotion entering in whatsoever. I suppose if you break down after that fact, that's OK (not for the alpha-beta male proponents here, obviously) and it may impress your wife with the sincerity of the words. The point is you need to eliminate every once of anger, irritation, frustration, blame (or for God's sake whining) from your voice. This makes your statement a plea of the heart, and not an accusation and not a "burden" of guilt. And do not react emotionally (read: angrily) regardless of what she says or how she reacts. If you de-escalate you will be surprised at how productive a conversation can be (a soft answer turns away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger-- this is always good advice in any situation whatsoever). 

If the conversation goes well, (or even if it doesn't) get your wife to read the following article:http://www.focusonthefamily.com/mar...understanding-your-husbands-sexual-needs.aspx

I have never in my life read an article that captures the heart of the matter as succinctly as this article. And the bonus is-- its written by a woman! An educated, professional counselor and married one at that! (I am right now working on the strategy to get my wife to read this).


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