# Are good guys really just stupid?



## Clarke (Dec 24, 2011)

Why do nice guys tend to seem stupid and end up feeling cheated generally?

Sometimes its not like nice guys {considerate of other's feelings} dont know how to be careless and mean, but their goodwill and conscience mostly gets them shoved in an awkward corner and feeling stupid, while the other mean guys catch a lot of fun. 

Worst is, even the girls seem to prefer the mean to the noble {at least thats what their attitude portrays}..It's like; they say otherwise but show otherwise.

Are good guys really just stupid?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Clarke said:


> Are good guys really just stupid?


That depends on your definition of "Good Guy"

If by "Good Guy" you mean those guys that come in here telling a story about how their wives are going out with other men while they knowingly sit home watching the kids and doing the laundry then yes...they are stupid.

I don`t consider that a "Good Guy" though.
I consider that a doormat, cuckold, and/or free nanny.

Women want strong men, not doormats.
Women want boundaries, not "yes men".


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## Clarke (Dec 24, 2011)

Lol. I totally agree with you {Tacoma} on your definition of 'Good guys'... those are obviously stupid.

But I'm referring to the 'Considerate' guys who try to avoid hurting the girl in question. 

For instance, a guy is in a mini spotlight {say a radio presenter} so some girls swarm around him, but he's not that interested in starting any relationships and he makes that clear, so he simply gives them the moderate friendly attention.

Now here's the problem; while the guy doesn't want to take advantage of his priviledge, it seems these girls want to be used because even though they know he wont take them seriously, they still keep coming on harder. 
Its understandable if they are just trying to catch some fun and hit the road, but it gets puzzling when they get fed up with the guy {good guy} who dosn't want to take advantage of them, and then hook up with...say the guy's colleage {bad guy} who would definately defile 'n' dump them......and then they CRY when it happens. it's like they see it coming but still prefer the experience.

This leaves the considerate guy wondering if the whole "not wanting to hurt them" is worth it at all.....Isn't he just being stupid not to have taken advantage.....


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

No I don't think the good guy in your example is stupid.
I think he's pretty smart.
I think the women in your example are stupid and by changing his standards to "score" all he gains is a stupid woman or women.

The good guy wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear so they moved on to an ass who would/
They set themselves up for failure and pain... They got it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I think the women in your example are stupid and by changing his standards to "score" all he gains is a stupid woman or women.


Agreed
I'd rather score a trophy then score trash


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Check out NoMoreMrNiceGuy dot com. The book may help you understand the phenomenon, and may help you understand yourself better.

One might oversimplify it to there being two kinds of men, according to women. Those you **** and those you marry. Genetically women are programmed to look for alpha males to mate with. They want strong aggressive competent children. But the women also want a stable good provider husband to make sure the kids eat and survive to adulthood. Plus, the woman doesn't want her husband to have his responsibilities diverted to other kids in other families.

Thus, women want sex with the alpha males. But they want to marry the beta males who won't go making babies with other women. A bit of a dichotomy and a problem, yes?

In an ideal world, a man would be both alpha and reliable. A classic Masculine man. He would be good breeding stock as well as being loyal to his wife. This kind of man does exist. But there are a lot of "Bad Boys" out there who are an imitation of the alpha. They are falsely macho, they have sex with lots of women, but they are not in any way loyal. Women incorrectly see a Bad Boy as a masculine and are sexually attracted.

So you'll see single women dating Bad Boys, and you'll see married women having affairs with Bad Boys. Those same women will marry Nice Guys.

When a single woman decides a man is a Nice Guy, he immediately is relegated to The Friend Zone, aka the no-sex-for-you zone. She has no lust for a Nice Guy's beta genes.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Thor said:


> When a single woman decides a man is a Nice Guy, he immediately is relegated to The Friend Zone, aka the no-sex-for-you zone. She has no lust for a Nice Guy's beta genes.


This may be true for many many women-maybe even the majority - but it was never true for me. I dated & married a true blue nice guy, they don't make them any nicer-or doting (which I have always loved & appreciated)... beta was written all over him.

He wasn't pursued by women, not into sports, not popular, quiet, reserved...not Mr Confidence by any means....BUT he could be depended on for anything, he was a man of his word, he was faithful & just an awesome human being. Though I did break up with him a very short time because I never dated anyone else -in my teens, I quickly realized he was what I wanted, he was MY perfect match.

I never cared for those other types, they only "looked good" to me physically, alot of them had humor going for them also, but just by observation alone, they were not as much "into" their women- often left them hanging to be with the guys, they were BS flirters with 1 thing on their mind- rarely as faithful-relationships seemed short lived, these things were automatic deal breakers for me -I'd never settle for that... so the doting types who wanted to be "best friends" is what I truly desired. 

We were going together & felt as "best friends" before we even kissed. I even purposely chose this Wedding invitation that spoke of friendship --because of how very very importatnt that aspect was to me -as a wife. 










So long as they are good looking, have a healthy sex drive ...... nothing in life is sweeter in a husband, as that takes care of the LUST end of it. 

I was never the type to care about popularity, how much $$ a guy makes (though he had to have an impeccable work ethic to prove he is "responsible & capable), jocks never turned me on either.

Though I did put a huge importance on "Health" (if his family was sickly, I probably would have seen the future in that ).. and of course a "sound mind" .... since I wanted to make babies with him -that was what I was looking for in MY personal nesting requirements. ..... Someone I was physically attracted too, would make a wonderful father, a faithful provider, a doting husband and make it to old age with me being my "best & closest friend" every step of the way.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This may be true for many many women-maybe even the majority - but it was never true for me. I dated & married a true blue nice guy, they don't make them any nicer-or doting (which I have always loved & appreciated)... beta was written all over him.
> 
> He wasn't pursued by women, not into sports, not popular, quiet, reserved...not Mr Confidence by any means....BUT he could be depended on for anything, he was a man of his word, he was faithful & just an awesome human being.


There is a nice guy, and then there is a pathologically _Nice Guy_. The Nice Guy is not all that nice, and eventually he'll irritate the heck out of you. Unless you are a manipulative narcissist, which you don't sound like at all.

Dr. Robert Glover wrote the book No More Mr. Nice Guy and runs an online support forum for Nice Guys. Typically the Nice Guy is passive aggressive, non-confrontational to the point of avoiding necessary conversations, has very weak or no boundaries, is afraid of sex, and puts women up on a pedestal.

The Nice Guy seems reliable, he dotes on his woman, and he likes everything to go smoothly. While dating him you might find him non-threatening and beta. But once married you probably would not describe him the way you do your husband.

Clarke described the pathological Nice Guy's reality pretty well. He is overly considerate of everybody else, never seeing to getting his own needs met. Ergo he is shoved into the corner while the other guys have fun.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Your post somehow comes off as saying that if you treat women respectfully, you aren't "having fun."

The two aren't mutually exclusive.


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## Clarke (Dec 24, 2011)

@SimplyAmorous; what a lovely choice of 'invitation card'....sweet! seems you've got a good thing going for you...Infact, two songs popped in my head when I saw your post; Forever and always {shania Twain} & Still the One {Dido} I guess you know them already..but if not, please get those songs..they speak of what you have. I'm happy for you!

@ COguy; Well, 'expressions' often has a lot to do with 'context'. 
"Treat women respectfully" is in the extremity of the context in which I speak. its like making the subject "Black-Or-White"...No. I'd rather stick to; 'not wanting to HURT the girl in question'...and "having fun" comes up from the PLEASURE that the good guy decides to forfeit, which the bad guy ENJOYS. thats where the question "are good guys really just stupid?" stemmed up from.

Hope that explains it......


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Clarke said:


> @ COguy; Well, 'expressions' often has a lot to do with 'context'.
> "Treat women respectfully" is in the extremity of the context in which I speak. its like making the subject "Black-Or-White"...No. I'd rather stick to; 'not wanting to HURT the girl in question'...and "having fun" comes up from the PLEASURE that the good guy decides to forfeit, which the bad guy ENJOYS. thats where the question "are good guys really just stupid?" stemmed up from.
> 
> Hope that explains it......


If that's really how you feel, I think you have a small view of life. I would never get with a throw-away girl. Not just because I wouldn't want to hurt them, but because I think it compromises my character.

Whatever enjoyment I would take from the sex session would not outweigh the negatives for me. That doesn't make me stupid, and it doesn't take away from my pleasure. I find pleasure in life, and living it as a man of integrity.

There's so many different reasons why someone might turn down a groupie, to label all the ones that wouldn't as stupid is stupid in my book.


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

I have met very few genuine nice guys, to be honest with you. There is always THE nice guy - the guy who thinks women should be flocking to him because he's NICE. I find it to be kind of irritating, actually, and a HUGE turn off if a guy labels himself as a 'nice guy.' I have to wonder if he really IS a nice guy, or if he's simply doing nice things to make himself appear like someone he isn't because that's how he has to make himself look appealing.

It is only natural that women are attracted, in general, to 'mean' guys. As a woman myself, (though not attracted to total arrogant a-holes) I want a strong man who realizes I can hold my own and don't want or need my fanny kissed all day. Someone who could protect me and our children, someone who could carry me off if a disaster ever happened, etc... It's sexual selection.

However, it is also really stupid of women to believe that they can change any man. Sadly, a lot of women think they can do that.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Thor said:


> Dr. Robert Glover wrote the book No More Mr. Nice Guy and runs an online support forum for Nice Guys. Typically the Nice Guy is passive aggressive, non-confrontational to the point of avoiding necessary conversations, has very weak or no boundaries, is afraid of sex, and puts women up on a pedestal.


 I am very aware of this book - I bought it ! ....just to see how bad my own husband was - he had a # of those symptoms, and about 4 we considered half's -not fully true . We read pages together. I used to get annoyed on this forum with all this type of talk cause it sounded like they are slamming my GOOD husband, really got under my skin for a time, I also bought "Hold onto your Nuts". I am the reader out of the 2 of us. 

My husband has always been more on the passive side, it is part of his temperment even. I do wish he was more assertive, has gotten better in the last 3 years as I have made a real STINK about it. It is so not in his nature to be a prick. 



> The Nice Guy seems reliable, he dotes on his woman, and he likes everything to go smoothly. While dating him you might find him non-threatening and beta. But once married you probably would not describe him the way you do your husband.


 Yes, exactly... mine never changed, he IS now what he was THEN. If he is anything... he is terribly consistent, genuine & true. 



> Clarke described the pathological Nice Guy's reality pretty well. He is overly considerate of everybody else, never seeing to getting his own needs met. Ergo he is shoved into the corner while the other guys have fun.


Haha, this makes me laugh, my husband still fits this - he is overly considerate of everyone else....well scratch that --just his family that is, as far as outside of our family, he has little concern, he doesn't even like people generally, one of his favorite sayings is ..."I hate people". Of course noone would know this because he never shows disdain for anyone, he is on the quiet side. If he accually said what he was thinking , on the other hand, they would no longer find him so nice. But why put your foot in your mouth. He lets ME do that ! We accually think very much alike but I am the assertive one, while he is more passive....by nature. 

I have had arguments with the man to NOT save something for the kids (last cookie, peice of pizza, ??) - he feels he is taking food out of their mouths or something - I have near YELLED at him to be more "selfish".... can you imagine what a rediculous fight this is ! :rofl: Believe me, I don't have these particular issues, I have no trouble taking something when I want it , but him....sometimes it is entertaining even. 

This is the silliest of examples but it has seriously happened about 3 times now , I have wanted to give him a BJ (that time of the month), he knows I LOVE them, crave them & he says to me ..."but I feel selfish"... I'm like "do you have any idea how insane this is"- then I tell him I selfishly want to do it -to lay back & enjoy baby! He just really gets off on "giving"-he wants me to get mine ...... But of course he wanted that BJ ! 

Kinda sweet being married to someone like this though! Do I think it is rare....oh yeah. He is one in a million.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Clarke said:


> @SimplyAmorous; what a lovely choice of 'invitation card'....sweet! seems you've got a good thing going for you...Infact, two songs popped in my head when I saw your post; Forever and always {shania Twain} & Still the One {Dido} I guess you know them already..but if not, please get those songs..they speak of what you have. I'm happy for you!


 Very aware of such songs , Shania Twain has some good ones....From this moment is my favorite Shania Twain - From This Moment On - YouTube



> *COguy said *: If that's really how you feel, I think you have a small view of life. I would never get with a throw-away girl. Not just because I wouldn't want to hurt them, but because I think it compromises my character.
> 
> Whatever enjoyment I would take from the sex session would not outweigh the negatives for me. That doesn't make me stupid, and it doesn't take away from my pleasure. I find pleasure in life, and living it as a man of integrity.


My husband is like you, he would never use a woman, he never has-or has tried too. He said he needs the emotional connection, or it is totally hollow for him -devoid of pleasure, he would choose his hand over that . He also would feel insulted to be called "stupid" for that. He waited for what he wanted, he was not concerned how long it took, he wasn't going to settle. I was just lucky he choose me. Though if I was like most young girls , I would have blew him off -due to his doting and loving nature and unpopularity. I am someone who enjoys looking much deeper than that.... so very blessed that I did . 

He is the one who taught ME how to love, I was the more messed up one when we met, He helped ME be a better person. Even though I was the one on the pedestal for most of our marraige.... now our pedestals are equal.


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## ku1980rose (Sep 7, 2010)

Thor said:


> Typically the Nice Guy is passive aggressive, non-confrontational to the point of avoiding necessary conversations, has very weak or no boundaries, is afraid of sex, and puts women up on a pedestal.
> .


Wow. This is my husband to a T. And sometimes I do think the the "nice guy" is also "stupid". He allows himself to be used as a doormat by so many people, thus just getting beat lower and lower until his self confidence is nothing. 

What makes a man like this afraid of sex? How do I fix that?


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## I'mAllIn (Oct 20, 2011)

I think here on this forum 'nice guy" and "wimp" often get confused for one another. To me a lot of these posts about nice guys are really talking about wimps. Guys who have no spine, no confidence, and who go through life doing whatever they're told to do, or whatever they think they have to do to get/keep the woman they have because they have so little self confidence they think they'd never get another/better one if they stood up to the one they have. I do think wimpy guys are stupid, and they make stupid decisions.

A true nice guy treats others, both women and men, well because he has the confidence to know that he doesn't have anything to prove. He doesn't have to kiss @ss or be an @ss, he can be himself and if they like him they do, and if they don't, so what. A nice guy chooses the women he dates/marries because they will treat him just as well as he treats them, not because they're easy to get into bed. 
I think a nice guy is just the opposite of wimps, I think they're the smartest, and most genuine, guys around.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I'mAllIn said:


> I think here on this forum 'nice guy" and "wimp" often get confused for one another. To me a lot of these posts about nice guys are really talking about wimps. Guys who have no spine, no confidence, and who go through life doing whatever they're told to do, or whatever they think they have to do to get/keep the woman they have because they have so little self confidence they think they'd never get another/better one if they stood up to the one they have. I do think wimpy guys are stupid, and they make stupid decisions.
> 
> *A true nice guy treats others, both women and men, well because he has the confidence to know that he doesn't have anything to prove. He doesn't have to kiss @ss or be an @ss, he can be himself and if they like him they do, and if they don't, so what. A nice guy chooses the women he dates/marries because they will treat him just as well as he treats them, not because they're easy to get into bed.
> I think a nice guy is just the opposite of wimps, I think they're the smartest, and most genuine, guys around.*


I totally agree. I use 'Good Guy' for this as not to be confused with the wimpy Nice Guy. A Good Guy is nice because they can be. It is not a weakness, but a real strength. They do have boundaries. They have high self esteem and therefore are not interested in the skanks. 

That said it seems that many women are pressurred these days to admire the so called Bad Boys as part of them proving that they are independent to both themselves and their peers. A twisted misconception that they are acting like men do by doing so. The aberation where some women party with the Bad Boys while hubby is at home watching the kids is a tragic example of the Nice Guy syndrome. A Good Guy would not be with such a woman for long if at all.

So too then the Good Guy is more likely to reject the women who have exhibited skanky behaviors and shown low self esteem by doing so. After all a Good Guy deserves a Good Woman.


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## I'mAllIn (Oct 20, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I totally agree. I use 'Good Guy' for this as not to be confused with the wimpy Nice Guy. A Good Guy is nice because they can be. It is not a weakness, but a real strength. They do have boundaries. They have high self esteem and therefore are not interested in the skanks.
> 
> That said it seems that many women are pressurred these days to admire the so called Bad Boys as part of them proving that they are independent to both themselves and their peers. A twisted misconception that they are acting like men do by doing so. The aberation where some women party with the Bad Boys while hubby is at home watching the kids is a tragic example of the Nice Guy syndrome. A Good Guy would not be with such a woman for long if at all.
> 
> So too then the Good Guy is more likely to reject the women who have exhibited skanky behaviors and shown low self esteem by doing so. After all a Good Guy deserves a Good Woman.


I think it's pretty common for a woman who has a "wimpy" nice guy husband at home to be out partying with a bad boy. I see this happen because she wants boundaries and wants to feel like he loves her enough to care what she's doing with her time, but he usually doesn't have the backbone to put his foot down and risk having her leave. She ends up losing respect for him. Ironically they both want the same thing, but their different personalities get in the way of their getting it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I'mAllIn said:


> I think it's pretty common for a woman who has a "wimpy" nice guy husband at home to be out partying with a bad boy. I see this happen because she wants boundaries and wants to feel like he loves her enough to care what she's doing with her time, but he usually doesn't have the backbone to put his foot down and risk having her leave. She ends up losing respect for him. Ironically they both want the same thing, but their different personalities get in the way of their getting it.


Yes indeed. :iagree:


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## ku1980rose (Sep 7, 2010)

I'mAllIn said:


> I think here on this forum 'nice guy" and "wimp" often get confused for one another. To me a lot of these posts about nice guys are really talking about wimps. Guys who have no spine, no confidence, and who go through life doing whatever they're told to do, or whatever they think they have to do to get/keep the woman they have because they have so little self confidence they think they'd never get another/better one if they stood up to the one they have. I do think wimpy guys are stupid, and they make stupid decisions.
> 
> A true nice guy treats others, both women and men, well because he has the confidence to know that he doesn't have anything to prove. He doesn't have to kiss @ss or be an @ss, he can be himself and if they like him they do, and if they don't, so what. A nice guy chooses the women he dates/marries because they will treat him just as well as he treats them, not because they're easy to get into bed.
> I think a nice guy is just the opposite of wimps, I think they're the smartest, and most genuine, guys around.


:iagree:


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

COguy said:


> If that's really how you feel, I think you have a small view of life. I would never get with a throw-away girl. Not just because I wouldn't want to hurt them, but because I think it compromises my character.
> 
> Whatever enjoyment I would take from the sex session would not outweigh the negatives for me. That doesn't make me stupid, and it doesn't take away from my pleasure. I find pleasure in life, and living it as a man of integrity.
> 
> There's so many different reasons why someone might turn down a groupie, to label all the ones that wouldn't as stupid is stupid in my book.


CoGuy - some of your posts are gems. This is one of them! :iagree:


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

I'mAllIn said:


> A true nice guy treats others, both women and men, well because he has the confidence to know that he doesn't have anything to prove. He doesn't have to kiss @ss or be an @ss, he can be himself and if they like him they do, and if they don't, so what. A nice guy chooses the women he dates/marries because they will treat him just as well as he treats them, not because they're easy to get into bed.
> I think a nice guy is just the opposite of wimps, I think they're the smartest, and most genuine, guys around.


YES! One of the mistakes people make is to label someone with low self-confidence and the inability to communicate honestly and openly as a "nice guy". But these "nice guys" are men who can't assert themselves in a healthy way. Maybe they want everyone to like them. Maybe they don't have their own identity. But being a "yes" man is not being nice.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

ku1980rose said:


> Wow. This is my husband to a T. And sometimes I do think the the "nice guy" is also "stupid". He allows himself to be used as a doormat by so many people, thus just getting beat lower and lower until his self confidence is nothing.
> 
> What makes a man like this afraid of sex? How do I fix that?


Sorry, I didn't see your post until just now.

He needs to see that there is a problem before he will change. You can nudge him, though. Show him the questionnaire at nomoremrniceguy dot com. Or get him the book. The blurb on the cover says something like "Are you not getting the sex you want? Not having the career success you want?" That might hook him into reading.

The sex thing? He needs to understand that sex is normal and honorable. So many people are raised with Victorian style sexual toxic shame. They feel guilty about their fantasies or even their desires. He needs to see that sex is something good. I'm not sure how to nudge him on that one other than the No More Mr. Nice Guy program.

Do you talk dirty to him? Do you tell him your fantasies? Do you ask him without judgment what he likes or what his fantasies are? Do you tell him that you just want him to take you sometimes without asking first?

Try telling him that you don't want to be asked if you want sex, you want him to TELL you that HE wants sex.

Work on disconnecting non-sexual touch with sex. For example, does he get a bit more touchy on days he then asks for sex later? This is a bad thing because it is dishonest on his part, and you will learn what it really means and then get resentful. So you two need to engage regularly in non-sexual touch, and he needs to be direct in speaking his desire for sex. You too.

He probably puts you on a pedestal. He sees sex as a reward you offer. So there is probably room for you to do some self reflection on how you are playing into the dysfunction.

It is frequently suggested that a couple go on a sex moratorium for a specified time, like 60 days. No sex. Touching and kissing and hugging are ok, but nothing sexual. You will be amazed at what you learn about how you interact, and he will probably see that he was doing things to try to manipulate you into sex. If you guys do the moratorium it would be wise to seek some additional info and advice. Check out the forums on Nomoremrnice guy for some that.

We all have our issues, and we tend to marry people with complementary issues. So you may unknowingly have some attitudes or behaviors which are in a negative synergy with his Nice Guy isms.


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## anitagrace2 (Dec 28, 2011)

i think good gays are always remains good and bad gays are always bad..


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## ku1980rose (Sep 7, 2010)

Thor said:


> Sorry, I didn't see your post until just now.
> 
> He needs to see that there is a problem before he will change. You can nudge him, though. Show him the questionnaire at nomoremrniceguy dot com. Or get him the book. The blurb on the cover says something like "Are you not getting the sex you want? Not having the career success you want?" That might hook him into reading.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for replying to my post. You seem to have a great insight into what is going on in my relationship. Many of the things you said fit us perfectly and your words have helped me to see some things with my husband that I never could quite understand about him. I'm definitely going to take your advice to heart and hopefully 2012 will prove to be a better year in my marriage.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Clarke said:


> Why do nice guys tend to seem stupid and end up feeling cheated generally?
> 
> Sometimes its not like nice guys {considerate of other's feelings} dont know how to be careless and mean, but their goodwill and conscience mostly gets them shoved in an awkward corner and feeling stupid, while the other mean guys catch a lot of fun.
> 
> ...


No. Good guys are just GOOD guys - and they end up running around, trying to make sure everyone is happy - and this is where they could get into trouble.

Example: an ex calls - and he's just too damn nice to tell her not to contact anymore, cuz he's toooooo nice....

Another: Mother of children asks for extra $$$ for this that and the other, and he gives in every time (and then we don't buy groceries) cuz he's toooooooo nice....

Again: lies about stupid little things to avoid ANY hurt feelings, EVER...pretty much tries to avoid any uncomfortable situations, really.

That's just my opinion of a nice guy - I'm married to one, he's definitely not an arsehole, very considerate, loving, etc. But TOO nice.

Do I want him to turn into a jerk? No - maybe just to be more of a man; more assertive/stronger.

As for gals preferring the nice guys jerk counterpart, maybe...but take the nice guy off the market, and all of a sudden, he becomes very interesting to these gals...because "He was SOOOO nice!!!".


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