# Wife admitted she has a female fantasy.



## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

My wife recently told me that she has a fantasy about being with another woman. 
I told her and in my mind believe that if she is with another woman that I am fine with it as long as I am involved. IE video, voyeur, or threesome. 
I know most of you here are going to say this is a bad idea. I know that it is not a good idea. IMO I would rather this fantasy be played out and put to rest. I know a threesome is out and I don't want the baggage from that. However the Idea of my wife with another woman is exciting. My wife is not a lesbian and prefers men over women and all that. 
She had a physical relationship with a girlfriend in high school. She has never been with a woman as a partner though.

I really don't want this to be a "how could you even consider this thread."


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Actually your wife isn't a lesbian

Your wife is bi-sexual and you have given her permission to cheat on you with another partner.

Your label will most likely be cuckhold


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## Beelzebub (Jun 26, 2012)

I disagree with Tofer.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

I agree with Toffer


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

So why isn't this classified as cheating Badbane?


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Actually your wife isn't a lesbian
> 
> Your wife is bi-sexual and you have given her permission to cheat on you with another partner.
> 
> Your label will most likely be cuckhold


No I have not I told her that under no circumstances is she allowed to pursue a female without my knowledge. I am not a cuckhold I would never allow my wife to be touched by another man. However seeing her with another woman is a fantasy we share.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

it can be done but good luck finding a potential person who's willing to let you share the fun. that's the hard part.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So, this fantasy - why does it have to become reality ??? Why don't the two of you just use it between yourselves as spice?


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> So why isn't this classified as cheating Badbane?


She has never cheated on me nor has she pursued a relationship outside of out marriage. I can only say that as long as she is open with me and I am involved that I don't consider it cheating. It is not like she is running around or sneaking behind my back. The conversation we are having is a hypothetical one. 
I am fine with it as long as I am involved if she tries to hide it or goes behind my back then yes I'd have an issue. Nothing has happened and is happening now.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

badbane said:


> She has never cheated on me nor has she pursued a relationship outside of out marriage. I can only say that as long as she is open with me and I am involved that I don't consider it cheating. It is not like she is running around or sneaking behind my back. The conversation we are having is a hypothetical one.
> I am fine with it as long as I am involved if she tries to hide it or goes behind my back then yes I'd have an issue. Nothing has happened and is happening now.


So essentially you are viewing this as a menage a trios (possibility)?

I guess that really leaves it up to you. I think you've been around long enough to know that people on this board generally do not support bringing a third person into the bedroom, even as a fantasy, but that's your call to make, not ours.

My only advice would be to really weigh out the pros and cons, especially long-term, before embarking on this adventure.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

mina said:


> it can be done but good luck finding a potential person who's willing to let you share the fun. that's the hard part.


Not really looking for a threesome. I just wanna watch. In my view, be it primal, is that I am fine with her with a woman. I know my wife enjoys our sex and I do to. It isn't about lack of sex or anything like that. I am not the type of guy that seek self gratification during sex. I get more gratification from my wife's big O than I do my own. I just like the Idea of my wife being please by another woman. Not shared emotionally or having another woman in our life.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Okay, bad idea.

When a fantasy involves another person, it's best to leave a fantasy as that. Just a fantasy. Once the two of you become three, then you are on a slippery slope. 

You say you're cool with it now! But what's to say that you're wife goes absolutely nuts with this girl and saying things she's never said to you. Moaning in ways she never does with you. Moving in ways she's never done with you.....it's just toooo many problems that could come up. And it could reck your marriage. Seriously! This could end it.

There have been threads where guys allowed this to happen as a one time deal, and the wives end up cheating behind their backs and ultimately leave the husband for the OW.

Again, not a good idea.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> So essentially you are viewing this as a menage a trios (possibility)?
> 
> I guess that really leaves it up to you. I think you've been around long enough to know that people on this board generally do not support bringing a third person into the bedroom, even as a fantasy, but that's your call to make, not ours.
> 
> My only advice would be to really weigh out the pros and cons, especially long-term, before embarking on this adventure.


I have looked at it this way. I know my wife is dedicated to me. If I for any reason felt that my marriage was in jeopardy, I would end it. I don't care if it is mid action. I just came on here to see if anyone on here had stories to share.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I would leave it as a fantasy ...its good to have them.

But if you go down that road hire a striper or an escort and do it at a hotel. The last thing you want is any connection and this thing turns into an EA and then a PA behind your back.

Again if we acted on every fantasy then we wouldn't have any fantasies.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"Not really looking for a threesome. I just wanna watch." and how many random women out there do you think are into this scene? 

Again, good luck. 

You are probably best to let this go unless you are willing to REALLY work for it, and then at that point it's going to be the wife and the OW and you'll get to hear the story later. Maybe.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> So, this fantasy - why does it have to become reality ??? Why don't the two of you just use it between yourselves as spice?


:scratchhead: I am wondering this, really. Is it because you think she'll do it anyway or something?


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Its a fantasy. I would be thrilled to hear about that from mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StrangerInTheAlps (Jul 3, 2012)

I say explore it. You both share the fantasy so it is not like its a one-sided deal. But you need to even the playing field. Meaning that you both need to agree that the other woman is also bi-sexual as your wife is slowly beginning to reveal to you and that you will not only be watching but an active participant. What this does is let her understand that if she is going to have her fantasy and act on it, so shall you. Who knows? It could spice things up tremendously and bring you both closer or it could be a train wreck.

But we roll the dice and we takes our chances. Such is life.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

Im pretty sure if you are wanting to bring in someone that is not in your marriage, you are not satisfied. Of course you agree to this fantasy, not just because of hte excitement, but because you get to freebie cheat on your wife. This will lead you to insecurity, jealousy, possessiveness, and the biggest part of it is that its infedelity. If you want to ruin your marriage then let it happen Cap'n.!


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

My goodness, so many of the people on this board are so.... boring. No wonder half of the men and a quarter of the women here are having sexual affairs lol. Seriously.

A man indulging a fantasy with his wife is a cuckold? That's so psychotic to say. The fact is that two women together intimately is a turn on for many men, women are sexy, feminine, soft. That's attractive, and a husband wanting to have an erotic experience with his wife is not a cuckold. He is a normal man. Geez, guys today are so feminized. Not every intimate experience has to involve tears and emotional breakthroughs. It's ok for it to just be for pleasure and fun.

Badbane, hi  Since your wife's last bi-sexual experience was in hs. I think you guys should start off slow and not jump straight into a threesome. A swingers club would be a great place to start. She can interact with other women, see them naked, possibly touch or give/receive lap dances from them. She may decide that she's not THAT into women after all and you guys can drop the fantasy right there. Or she may decide that she is indeed interested in taking it further and you guys could very well find a woman there.

Swingers club can seem very intimidating if you have never been to one. But really, they are probably some of the most comfortable places to be. They are clothing optional, and no always means and you'll never feel pressured. The people there are normal people, typically married and nice. Upscale clubs are the best  but are more expensive than the lower scale ones.

You could also take her to a strip club to receive lap dances and see women nude but i think a swingers club is the better idea. The women there have more typical looking bodies so it's not as intimidating as the perfect bodied women at strip clubs.

Also, insecurities. If you have them in your marriage, don't do this. My husband and i had a threesome early after marrying and now he's uncomfortable with me having female friends. Which sucks


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Perhaps the concept of two women together can be a fantasy.

The reality is they are both living people with feelings and attachments. Any one your wife would pick to have sex with is someone she finds physically and emotionally attractive, and vise versa for the OW. When they have sex it not emotionless, it's them forming and building an emotional and sexual connect that you are not part of. Watching isn't bring part of, it's watching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Your wife is not dedicated to you if she wants to sleep with. Someone else. 
Also many "straight" women leave men for other women.
You are also not dedicated to her IMO if you want to watch.

You would be allowing a third person into your marraige. That will create distance between you, how can it not? When two people focus on each other they have the best chance at long term attraction and a deep intimate relationship. 

And who hasn't had this fantasy? Any mature man who really cares deeply for his wife rather then silly boyhood fantasies would protect his marriage at all costs. 

It's like saying I will do the right thing in my marraige untill my wife says I don't have to, and it turns me on. How convenient. Shouldn't we allways do our best despite opportunities. to do otherwise? Are you a man who honors your commitments and knows what he stands for?
I would view my husband as very weak after something like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

floxie said:


> My goodness, so many of the people on this board are so.... boring. No wonder half of the men and a quarter of the women here are having sexual affairs lol. Seriously.


We get it, you don't like many people around here. That doesn't mean you need to toss out a dig at the start of ever post you make.



*LittleDeer* said:


> I would view my husband as very weak after something like this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To be fair, I'd think even less of my wife if she came to me asking about bringing someone else into the bedroom, male or female.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

floxie said:


> My goodness, so many of the people on this board are so.... boring. No wonder half of the men and a quarter of the women here are having sexual affairs lol. Seriously.


 Bringing a 3 rd person into the bedroom, especially for use by only one SO is effectively cheating with pre-acceptance/pre-forgiveness.

I think it's pretty unfair and even dangerous to suggest that not-being ok with cheating like that is either boring or a reason to justify affairs.

He asked and people have offered their concerns about the impact this will have to a marriage. This isn't about being boring, its about making good choices that preserve the marriage.

As for the whole idea, there are so many postings out there a threesomes gone wrong that ended the marriage, that you'd be very naive to just jump in with all oars and blindly go for it.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Okay I get that it isn't a good idea. I get it I really do. I do not intend to have a threesome. Just not interested in being inside anyone but my wife. However I would enjoy watching my with with another woman. I don't agree that it is cheating so long as I am involved IE i know about it and have agreed to it. Cheating would be he hooked up with a girl and hid it from me or that she started having an overly emotional connection to this other person. I have no intention of swinging with my wife. If a man were to touch my wife I would break him in every way I know how.(I know several ways) 
I am not interested in sharing my wife with another man. Who could put a baby in her.(primal I know) Nor does she want to be with another man. She does have a fantasy about another woman. Which I agree to whoever I don't want to be in the middle I just want to watch. 
My wife knows that there is no way she could hide an EA or PA from me. I am an IT pro. There is no way she could sneak around on me and I not find out.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

badbane said:


> My wife knows that there is no way she could hide an EA or PA from me. I am an IT pro. There is no way she could sneak around on me and I not find out.


Famous last words of someone I know. Where there is a will, there is a way. Not saying it will happen, just don't rest so highly on your abilities.


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## Jimbob82 (Jun 29, 2012)

Does sound great, but perhaps best left for what it is - a fantasy? It could lead onto other things, you just don't know?

I know in her wilder college days, my wife had full lesbian sex with a female friend - they did it as a bet with some guy friends who said they wouldn't - well guess what, they did! Now, I know this sounds horny and a great fantasy, but it also drives me very potty thinking of her moaning in pleasure and kissing someone very passionately (even another woman), especially when she keeps pushing me away basically every time I try to initiate something with her recently.

Because what she did then is so opposite of how she is now, I'd rather she hadn't told me in the first place about her hot and horny lesbian encounter..


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Famous last words of someone I know. Where there is a will, there is a way. Not saying it will happen, just don't rest so highly on your abilities.


I considered this but I know that if our actions lead to her cheating with another woman then I would be okay with the fallout. It would be my fault and hers we got there. So It would be something I could deal with and get over (not sweeping it under a rug but would make sure never happened again). However if it lead to an affair with a man my wife knows the consequences of that.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I disagree with Toffer too.

Badbane, I completely understand why you'd think it's a turn on and it's NEVER a good idea to get "involved" in these situations.

However the risk is that the thrill, and the high of fulfilling her fantasy will lead her to wanting more and more and she may inevitably develop an emotional/sexual attachment to the other woman. Eitherway, in a marriage this should be left squarely confined to the fantasy zone.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

This whole deal sounds pretty risky just to make a fantasy become real. I know the temptation of having two women at the same time but is it worth it?


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Hi... Yeah, this is a fantasy of ours too, I'm bi with a few sexual experiences along the way with the same sex. It will NEVER become reality, and that is understood in our marriage. It is fun to talk about it, watch porn that has two women, etc. But it stops there  

With that said, since we are still fairly young... We both have mentioned that when we are older, the kids are gone, etc... If we want to revisit it in the future, it is always there. Doubtful though... Not something I see myself doing in the future.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

BB, if she was with another man you could at least compete to be a better lover. You have the wrong equipment to compete with a woman. If she finds out she prefers sex with a woman tomsx with you, then what? How can you compete with that? You may be opening pandora's box here.


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## Truthstop (Jul 14, 2012)

Wow! Exciting and Dangerous! When the mind starts to wonder about this and that, it usually ends up on that! You are about to open Pandora's Box! Once its open, all bets are OFF! You know this, are you asking permission? Should you explore this? Or NOT! Because the problem with that is , How do you tell someone Not to, when they also have an itch! to find out themselves! It sparks the curiosity in a person. 
1) who shall she pick?
2) Will she be attractive to me or vice versa? 
3) Can she perform better than my wife? etc etc it goes on an on if you feed it. 

The answer is: Yes, No, Yes, Yes, No! and Damn! I did not see that coming! On all levels, even in an open marriage, this is a BAD IDEA to explore! with a women who is clearly sheltered and inexperienced in such things. This may sound crazy! but If she was doing this Bi thing before you got married, I believe she would have the experiential emotional foundation to handle it , if it got out of hand. 

But ! she doesnt! your about to open her up and yourself to a uncontrolled variable! of circumstances and events that will follow, and there is no telling what the aftermath or pleasure will bring. 

Q: Is all this worth destroying the marriage you have with her now? 
*Its funny, there is a small little adult flash game called "I love Laura" that deal with this very thing, which shows a series of events that take place from making different choices! Some are really BAD Endings. Its just a game but the author draws the end circumstances from real life experiences of his friends! 

Marriage is nothing! to play with like this , I can tell you , you will regret this, she will be dealing with images , emotions, orgasms from another women she did not think possible. It will cause Great confusion in her and she will look at you with doubt! and dismay! She will also question "What type of husband permits this"? Or she might think "My Husband is the coolest guy on Earth!" What a serious coin flip you are about to make my friend. I hope it lands on heads! more than tails! for you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Not a good idea. As a young man my slightly older girl friend left me for another woman, so not certain this would work out well.

It's not worth the risk, IMO.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Okay Bane, YOU said you would be okay with another woman. YOU said that you would enjoy seeing it. YOU said you woundn't have a problem if it were just another woman; but, definately not another man!

Okay, we know how YOU would feel. But, what about your wife? Do you know how she would feel after this? "He must not love me as I love him if he allowed this to happen. He shared me like a play thing." She might start resenting you. Or, she starts cheating on you behind your back with another woman. But it's okay! "Because you said it was alright as long as I was only with women. So, I didn't think you would mind." or she says, " I wanted to be alone with her and relax, because if you're in the room, I feel like I'm putting on a performance for you."

There's another person you have to think about with this.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

crossbar said:


> Okay Bane, YOU said you would be okay with another woman. YOU said that you would enjoy seeing it. YOU said you woundn't have a problem if it were just another woman; but, definately not another man!
> 
> Okay, we know how YOU would feel. But, what about your wife? Do you know how she would feel after this? "He must not love me as I love him if he allowed this to happen. He shared me like a play thing." She might start resenting you. Or, she starts cheating on you behind your back with another woman. But it's okay! "Because you said it was alright as long as I was only with women. So, I didn't think you would mind." or she says, " I wanted to be alone with her and relax, because if you're in the room, I feel like I'm putting on a performance for you."
> 
> There's another person you have to think about with this.


I responded to question that were geared towards me. 
Anyway yes I have talked to her about this and would not force my wife into anything. I have not pressured her in anyway. My wife has a hard enough time opening up about sex. When she told me about the fantasy he have been talking. She feels like it is a dirty fantasy and it is about the taboo. I am not going to shanghai my wife or anything. 
I am just curious as to the people who have done this. Was it enjoyable? Were you able to reconcile any mixed feelings? I want information not a lecture. I know it is taboo, I know it isn't a good idea otherwise I would not be on this site about it. I love my wife more than I love the air in my lungs and the blood in my veins. If anything I have a problem with putting my wife on a pedestal. Definitely not listening to her feelings.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

It is amazing the people who discard you request and choose to judge you. 

To each their own. I wonder if being with another women will "put this to rest" as you postulate. It could wake up a sleeping giant. 

If you must do this I would suggest nobody in your circle of friends as that could get complicated. Things will never not be weird. There is a site hipforums.com (or something like that may give you insight to safe practices and what to avoid) there believe there are alternative lifestyle sections etc. 

I have a family friend that left her husband and kids for another women. I also had a MFM and a FMF with an ex girlfriend. There are many unanticipated landmines even if you are just an observer. Careful what you ask for. Consider limiting things to fantasy.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

tjohnson said:


> It is amazing the people who discard you request and choose to judge you.
> 
> To each their own. I wonder if being with another women will "put this to rest" as you postulate. It could wake up a sleeping giant.
> 
> ...


Hmmm....This response must be judgemental too because you've basically done what most others here have. You've warned him of the downsides.

To the OP, everyone is different. What may have worked for one couple may not work for you. I think there have been more negative responses here because they themselves (or someone they know) have had this type of scenario go sideways on them.


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Hmmm....This response must be judgemental too because you've basically done what most others here have. You've warned him of the downsides.
> 
> To the OP, everyone is different. What may have worked for one couple may not work for you. I think there have been more negative responses here because they themselves (or someone they know) have had this type of scenario go sideways on them.


Yes, everyone is different but if there's an activity that the vast majority of people who partake in later regret, it's a wise idea to keep than in mind if one choses to engage in it. 

It's like calling someone "judgmental" if they warn that jumping in an ocean filled with sharks frequently has a negative outcome. Are there positive benefits to jumping in an ocean filled with sharks? Sure! It could be a great opportunity to overcome fear. It could be a great opportunity to bond with the native sea-life and realize your "one-ness" with creatures of nature, etc. But there are downsides! You could be maimed, you could be eaten, you could drown, etc. Being aware of the downsides is a smart idea.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

IMO if she leaves me for another woman out of this then that opportunity was there all along. This may have not helped matters but I am only 26. While I would be devastated I'd rather it be with someone who isn't an in the closet lesbian ready to burst out one day. Not that that is the case my wife and I have always had a two to three times a week sexcapade. My wife usually gets off a minimum of three times. Especially since I started going to the gym and getting rid of the gut I grew. 
So sexually my wife is fulfilled. This is a fantasy and one that I'd like to be more informed about rather than just making a snap judgement. I know it depends on the couple and I know my wife is holding some stuff back. I just get this feeling that my wife is sitting on the fence. I asked her about fantasies and her reply is "I don't really have any." Which I know is bull we all have fantasies that are floating around. This is the one fantasy she has really only mentioned after asking for months now. 
If that is her only fantasy right now then it must be strong enough to be fixating. I what is your guys take?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

It is cheating only if there is deceit involved.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

floxie said:


> . *It's ok for it to just be for pleasure and fun.Not every intimate experience has to involve tears and emotional breakthroughs*
> 
> Also, insecurities. If you have them in your marriage, don't do this. *My husband and i had a threesome early after marrying and now he's uncomfortable with me having female friends.* Which sucks


I love inconsistancies. First part is about everyone lightening up because this sort of thing doesn't have to screw with your marriage, then you end it with an example of how this sort of thing screwed with you marriage.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

crossbar said:


> Okay, bad idea.
> 
> When a fantasy involves another person, it's best to leave a fantasy as that. Just a fantasy. Once the two of you become three, then you are on a slippery slope.
> 
> ...


What's to prevent this from happening anyway without a threesome? Would it have happened one day as a drunk way to pass the time away when her H wasn't home? That's the real question I mean if the guy allowed it to happen then it seems that his woman wanted it more than he did. Not trying to play devils advocate but an A is an A and it does not matter if it is with a W or M it is going to ruin a marriage anyway. Sure a threesome might be paving an express lane towards an A. Does not having one lessen the odds that the same thing wouldn't happen just behind your back?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Are you sure she didn't finally break down and 'admit' this fantasy because you just kept bugging her about it so she figured she'd come up with one that you'd approve of????????


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

Hope1964 said:


> Are you sure she didn't finally break down and 'admit' this fantasy because you just kept bugging her about it so she figured she'd come up with one that you'd approve of????????


Long before I met my wife I was out having lunch with some female friend of mine. I was talking about my present gf and how she would consider being with another woman.
My female friend laughed at me and said, "ive said the same thing to my bf, i dont mean it, i just know you guys like that kind of s*%t!".... i was crushed :rofl:!


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Are you sure she didn't finally break down and 'admit' this fantasy because you just kept bugging her about it so she figured she'd come up with one that you'd approve of????????


I know it isn't just crap she only watched girl on girl porn. She even showed me her type. Which surprisingly are women that look a lot like her. long black hair, exotic, athletic and curvy. We did it to her watching lesbian porn. I could tell it turned her on. lets just say it was a fun night.


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## Truthstop (Jul 14, 2012)

Ummm, what do you mean WE? "We did it to her watching lesbian porn. I could tell it turned her on. lets just say it was a fun night"

Did you really mean you and her did it to some lesbian porn flick?? 

Anyway, I don't know if this helps, but I dated a girl years ago, that after several sex encounters, felt comfortable enough to tell me she is really BI-Sexual! She talked me into sleeping with one of her Bi-sexual girl friends. It took her about 2 weeks of trying to get me to consider it before I caved in! I was very young (22 yrs) The experience was weird! The other Bi-women was very aggressive! I could tell these two had been at it wayyy before she met me! It sucked, because I was really getting into my girlfriend before this happened. 

Long story short, this odd union drew me closer to the OW, we eventually got with each other outside of my girl friend, which in a short time period caused some massive! Jealousy and Anger towards me on her part. My girlfriend sorta went crazy with anger, destroyed some things of mine, and broke up with me. I saw that coming before I committed the act! The Other Bi -girl and I stayed together in a longer relationship? until she moved backed to London! 

We are friends now, she is happily married & we share a very secret thing together about her past! I have no idea what or how more intense things would have gotten, if my Bi-Sexual girlfriend and I was married! I don't know exactly what you are looking for, or what your trying to rationalize, but if your thinking , Your Wife is becoming more drawn to women, or just bi curious? or some fantasy to fore fill, All I can say is, I went through 2 months of a very wild and crazy ride that I would NEVER go thru if we were married.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

badbane said:


> What's to prevent this from happening anyway without a threesome? Would it have happened one day as a drunk way to pass the time away when her H wasn't home? That's the real question I mean if the guy allowed it to happen then it seems that his woman wanted it more than he did. Not trying to play devils advocate but an A is an A and it does not matter if it is with a W or M it is going to ruin a marriage anyway. Sure a threesome might be paving an express lane towards an A. Does not having one lessen the odds that the same thing wouldn't happen just behind your back?


Yes, not having a threesome lessons the odds that an affair will develop, just like a recovering alcoholic can lessen their odds of drinking by staying out of the bar. Do you want more examples of staying away from temptation to minimize negative consequences?

ETA: I look at it as quality control for a marriage.. why put in an express lane for an affair to happen? What's the point? That's like saying you're gonna die someday, go ahead and off yourself. What about the in-between? If you sincerely feel your marriage can survive this, I say go for it.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

badbane said:


> My wife recently told me that she has a fantasy about being with another woman.
> I told her and in my mind believe that if she is with another woman that I am fine with it as long as I am involved. IE video, voyeur, or threesome.
> I know most of you here are going to say this is a bad idea. I know that it is not a good idea. IMO I would rather this fantasy be played out and put to rest. I know a threesome is out and I don't want the baggage from that. However the Idea of my wife with another woman is exciting. My wife is not a lesbian and prefers men over women and all that.
> She had a physical relationship with a girlfriend in high school. She has never been with a woman as a partner though.
> ...


My wife and I had much that same conversation and agreement. She even began to semi-actively look for a woman that she found attractive who would agree with our conditions. However, she has since come to the conclusion that, while I may feel that I can handle seeing her being with another woman, she doesn't think she can. So, she is content to let her curiosity remain in the realm of fantasy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

badbane said:


> What's to prevent this from happening anyway without a threesome? Would it have happened one day as a drunk way to pass the time away when her H wasn't home? That's the real question I mean if the guy allowed it to happen then it seems that his woman wanted it more than he did. Not trying to play devils advocate but an A is an A and it does not matter if it is with a W or M it is going to ruin a marriage anyway. Sure a threesome might be paving an express lane towards an A. Does not having one lessen the odds that the same thing wouldn't happen just behind your back?


Okay.....I....give up. GOOD LUCK!!!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

crossbar said:


> Okay.....I....give up. GOOD LUCK!!!


Agreed. He starts a thread seeking opinions, but then proceeds to differ with everyone on their opinion and turn it into a debate. Badbane, just go ahead and do it because it seems like you are bent on doing it anyways.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

badbane said:


> I know it isn't just crap she only watched girl on girl porn. She even showed me her type. Which surprisingly are women that look a lot like her. long black hair, exotic, athletic and curvy. We did it to her watching lesbian porn. I could tell it turned her on. lets just say it was a fun night.


Hope asked you a question, your answer isn't really an answer.... Because based on your answer, what you are essentially saying is that because she pointed out a hot woman on a porn flick, she's 100% for bringing another woman into y'alls marital bed? Bisexually speaking, my H and I have watched lesbian porn, I've pointed out women I think are hot, I've pointed out women in real life that I think are hot. And it's fun. But that's it, that's as far as either of us care to take it as we have discussed the fact that our intimacy is too special to share with anyone else and run the risk of destroying what we have for an hour or so of sexual gratification. 

But again, if you are okay with the risk of this destroying your marriage, I say go for it and have fun... nothing like living for the present


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeah, it seems like you're gonna just go ahead anyway. When your relationship blows up, I guess you'll be back for more advice you won't listen to.

You are supposed to think with your BIG head.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Truthstop said:


> Ummm, what do you mean WE? "We did it to her watching lesbian porn. I could tell it turned her on. lets just say it was a fun night"
> 
> Did you really mean you and her did it to some lesbian porn flick??
> 
> ...


My question is would you have done things differently?


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Hope asked you a question, your answer isn't really an answer.... Because based on your answer, what you are essentially saying is that because she pointed out a hot woman on a porn flick, she's 100% for bringing another woman into y'alls marital bed? Bisexually speaking, my H and I have watched lesbian porn, I've pointed out women I think are hot, I've pointed out women in real life that I think are hot. And it's fun. But that's it, that's as far as either of us care to take it as we have discussed the fact that our intimacy is too special to share with anyone else and run the risk of destroying what we have for an hour or so of sexual gratification.
> 
> But again, if you are okay with the risk of this destroying your marriage, I say go for it and have fun... nothing like living for the present


I didn't pester her over an over and over again No. My wife and I talk about sex and I am very open and honest about things i would like to try. IE being tied up, and stuff like that. When I ask her which is probably on a frequency of once a month or so. She merely avoided the question. She admitted this fantasy to me in the car on during a two hour drive where we were talking about anything to pass the time. She has fears and apprehensions to doing this as do I. I am the type of person that asks questions because I think there is more to it than just a fantasy turned reality.
I am not trying to beat a dead horse. I don't want to know just we did it and it was fun but it didn't work out.
I want to know why, what happened, if you did/didn't act on it and why, do you think that an secret A would have happened regardless of fulfilling the fantasy or not. I ask questions because they are what's in my head. Not to justify anything.
Why start a thread to discuss this if not to ask questions about it and really explore it. 
Not to hear it just a bad idea but why, would the outcome be different if things hadn't happened, emotional/psychological repercussions, all of it.
We are all anonymous on here so it shouldn't matter what you think of me. I could be your neighbor best friend, mom, sister , brother, cousin. I just am asking for openness.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

There is a line of thinking that comes up that goes like this:

If my wife does do X, and she does fall for X, then I guess it was the choice to allow wife to explore that was at fault, it was inevitable and this just showed us that truth.

But the problem with this idea is that it ignores that disasters start with the very first step toward them.

I bet you if a wife was given permission by her husband to go out date other men freely. Act as a single and available woman who is seeking a long term relationship, she would no doubt find one and leave the husband.

Now did she leave her husband because her emotional connection to the new guy was inevitable? Of course not. It was entirely brought about by the choice to have her seek a relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> There is a line of thinking that comes up that goes like this:
> 
> If my wife does do X, and she does fall for X, then I guess it was the choice to allow wife to explore that was at fault, it was inevitable and this just showed us that truth.
> 
> ...


I agree here and my question for the ones who have ful filled this fantasy and not had it tear up the relationship. what do you think is the main reason it did not ruin the marriage. also same question for the people who fulfilled the fantasy and it did ruin the marriage. Was there a different way you would have handled it that would have prevented the fantasy from ruining your relationship other than just not fulfilling the fantasy?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

badbane said:


> I agree here and my question for the ones who have ful filled this fantasy and not had it tear up the relationship. what do you think is the main reason it did not ruin the marriage. also same question for the people who fulfilled the fantasy and it did ruin the marriage. Was there a different way you would have handled it that would have prevented the fantasy from ruining your relationship other than just not fulfilling the fantasy?


Oddly, it seems that you agree with Shaggy's POV, yet disagree with many who say that introducing someone else into the mix opens the relationship to problems. But, by my read, Shaggy seems to be saying the same thing.

Let's reword what Shaggy said a bit. Suppose your wife came to you and said, "I've been curious about trying cocaine for a while." You say, "I don't want to, but I want you to be happy. You satisfy your curiosity...I'll just watch." Your wife does coke with your knowledge and consent. And becomes addicted. Was her addiction "inevitable?" Or did it come about because you facilitated her use of a substance that she otherwise probably wouldn't have tried?

Same concept. Without your OK, she may never indulge her fantasy. But, with your permission, she can indulge it and find that she prefers women to men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

badbane said:


> I agree here and my question for the ones who have ful filled this fantasy and not had it tear up the relationship. what do you think is the main reason it did not ruin the marriage. also same question for the people who fulfilled the fantasy and it did ruin the marriage. Was there a different way you would have handled it that would have prevented the fantasy from ruining your relationship other than just not fulfilling the fantasy?


Since different people react differently, I think you'll find there's no "one size fits all" answer to this. I still maintain that I would have been fine with my wife being with another woman. She disagrees, and prefers to err on the side of caution and not enter into a situation in which the potential benefits are far outweighed by the potential pitfalls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

if you are going to go along with it and if you think nothing is wrong with it and you feel women sleeping with women is okay and you being involved is okay. Than why are you asking the question?

you wont my opinion? you should not do it and its a mockery of marriage and will only lead to more problems and most people cannot handle what it brings the psychological affects it can on here brain or your's and what it can do to the marriage. 



But than again you dont wont those thoughts it leads me to believe that perhaps you have had second thoughts and told us to not say such things because you dont want to second guess yourself.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

You keep saying this isn't going to be a threesome, but in my mind it involves all the same raitional thought and emotional protective measures as a threesome... in fact that you don't even want to participate seems foolish to me, like you want all the risk with none of the benefit. But its your relationship to spoil if that's your choice.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Grayson said:


> Oddly, it seems that you agree with Shaggy's POV, yet disagree with many who say that introducing someone else into the mix opens the relationship to problems. But, by my read, Shaggy seems to be saying the same thing.
> 
> Let's reword what Shaggy said a bit. Suppose your wife came to you and said, "I've been curious about trying cocaine for a while." You say, "I don't want to, but I want you to be happy. You satisfy your curiosity...I'll just watch." Your wife does coke with your knowledge and consent. And becomes addicted. Was her addiction "inevitable?" Or did it come about because you facilitated her use of a substance that she otherwise probably wouldn't have tried?
> 
> ...


Can we make it crack in your analogy? I have always been curious as to what is so alluring about the crack high. Now in my marriage, if I went to my H, who is a recovering crackhead, and told him I've always wanted to try it... He would attempt to dissuade me as he knows the consequences... And once I hear the stories from this recovering crackhead,that desire to try something so harmful to myself and others would be gone. Kind of like being taught the consequences of drinking and driving..do they still show those horrid videos in driving school? And while pretty much everyone in my generation saw those videos... Some people still don't listen and have to find out for themselves


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Can we make it crack in your analogy? I have always been curious as to what is so alluring about the crack high. Now in my marriage, if I went to my H, who is a recovering crackhead, and told him I've always wanted to try it... He would attempt to dissuade me as he knows the consequences... And once I hear the stories from this recovering crackhead,that desire to try something so harmful to myself and others would be gone. Kind of like being taught the consequences of drinking and driving..do they still show those horrid videos in driving school? And while pretty much everyone in my generation saw those videos... Some people still don't listen and have to find out for themselves


I have repeatedly said. "Duh I know It's a bad Idea." IT seems that those posts have gone by ignored. The reason I want to pursue this fantasy is partially to do with her past, it is the only fantasy she has freely admitted too, and I have no intention of a threesome. Really I don't I have had opportunities before and I passes them up. 
Would I never give my wife a free pass to just go find someone and bring her home. The question I have is that , for the ones who have had another person in their life successfully. How did they pull it off. 
I am not asking oh it's a bad Idea. I didn't come on here to have the same thing said literally in half the posts on here. I have heard plenty of people so far say " It is a highway to an A,(i know that), it causes all kinds of emotional baggage (check) , I have had a few post who were successful at this and would like to hear from them." 
Enough with the bashing and the mobbing.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

badbane said:


> I have repeatedly said. "Duh I know It's a bad Idea." IT seems that those posts have gone by ignored. The reason I want to pursue this fantasy is partially to do with her past, it is the only fantasy she has freely admitted too, and I have no intention of a threesome. Really I don't I have had opportunities before and I passes them up.
> Would I never give my wife a free pass to just go find someone and bring her home. The question I have is that , for the ones who have had another person in their life successfully. How did they pull it off.
> I am not asking oh it's a bad Idea. I didn't come on here to have the same thing said literally in half the posts on here. I have heard plenty of people so far say " It is a highway to an A,(i know that), it causes all kinds of emotional baggage (check) , I have had a few post who were successful at this and would like to hear from them."
> Enough with the bashing and the mobbing.


I think you'll find most folks here are trying to repair their marriage, and thus avoid express lanes to affairs and divorce (... So you may not get a lot of positive support for this particular subject. I might be wrong, but.. I'm done bashing . 

Hope it all works out!


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Have you thought about taking her to the strip club and getting a lap dance together first? My H came back and got to watch me get a lap dance and that was enough for him. We went directly home and couldn't hardly wait to rip each others clothes off. I am not into women BTW, but he also expressed an interest of seeing me with one, this was our compromise


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

DawnD said:


> Have you thought about taking her to the strip club and getting a lap dance together first? My H came back and got to watch me get a lap dance and that was enough for him. We went directly home and couldn't hardly wait to rip each others clothes off. I am not into women BTW, but he also expressed an interest of seeing me with one, this was our compromise


A very good compromise. Even before my wife halted her semi-active search, we had started going to a strip club roughly once a month, and have a great time. She gets as many dances as I do, if not more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

badbane said:


> I have repeatedly said. "Duh I know It's a bad Idea." IT seems that those posts have gone by ignored. The reason I want to pursue this fantasy is partially to do with her past, it is the only fantasy she has freely admitted too, and I have no intention of a threesome. Really I don't I have had opportunities before and I passes them up.
> Would I never give my wife a free pass to just go find someone and bring her home. *The question I have is that , for the ones who have had another person in their life successfully. How did they pull it off. *I am not asking oh it's a bad Idea. I didn't come on here to have the same thing said literally in half the posts on here. I have heard plenty of people so far say " It is a highway to an A,(i know that), it causes all kinds of emotional baggage (check) , I have had a few post who were successful at this and would like to hear from them."
> Enough with the bashing and the mobbing.


In regards to the bolded, maybe go back and read your initial post. Nowhere is the bolded mentioned in that post. Basically it reads as "my wife has this fantasy, I'm willing to let it play out and be put to rest, don't bash me" You didn't ask for advice or input specifically from those who did it before, nor ask those who haven't done it before to not comment, so don't be shocked that everyone jumped in with their own advice or experiences about how this can be a terrible idea.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> In regards to the bolded, maybe go back and read your initial post. Nowhere is the bolded mentioned in that post. Basically it reads as "my wife has this fantasy, I'm willing to let it play out and be put to rest, don't bash me" You didn't ask for advice or input specifically from those who did it before, nor ask those who haven't done it before to not comment, so don't be shocked that everyone jumped in with their own advice or experiences about how this can be a terrible idea.


Not mad or anything. I want a discussion not a post / repost of the same thing. I get that it is a bad Idea but the thread went from an open discussion to a mob. Just trying to have an open discussion here without everybody saying the same thing. It is not the point of this thread. I am not saying that this fantasy is a good one. But some people do this and it works out. For most people it is strange and awkward. So I'd like to hear discussion about it. Not pick apart every word and sentence that is posted on here.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Grayson said:


> A very good compromise. Even before my wife halted her semi-active search, we had started going to a strip club roughly once a month, and have a great time. She gets as many dances as I do, if not more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Will consider trying this. Only problem is they passed a law here making it illegal for nudity and lap dances. Hell an adult club has to wear outfite less revealing than hooters pretty much now. So I will find out where we can go. I think my wife is struggling with the fact that she thinks she has to be a perfect mom and admitting she has these freaky and kinky fatasies makes her a bad mom. Maybe that's true but I try to separate the two. I think that there is two sides to us all. The parent side that is promotes stability and security, Then there is the carnal side that likes, sex and being wild. I think that we have to be willing to open up to both sides to be happy. I am still young and there's a lot I want to do before I am unable to.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

badbane said:


> Not mad or anything. I want a discussion not a post / repost of the same thing. I get that it is a bad Idea but the thread went from an open discussion to a mob. Just trying to have an open discussion here without everybody saying the same thing. It is not the point of this thread. I am not saying that this fantasy is a good one. But some people do this and it works out. For most people it is strange and awkward. So I'd like to hear discussion about it. Not pick apart every word and sentence that is posted on here.


But...if the majority or entirety of those replying all agree, then, by definition, you will have everyone essentially saying the same thing. You asked for input. You got input. You asked for discussion. You got discussion. In this case, most input into the discussion was similar. It happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

badbane said:


> Will consider trying this. Only problem is they passed a law here making it illegal for nudity and lap dances. Hell an adult club has to wear outfite less revealing than hooters pretty much now. So I will find out where we can go. I think my wife is struggling with the fact that she thinks she has to be a perfect mom and admitting she has these freaky and kinky fatasies makes her a bad mom. Maybe that's true but I try to separate the two. I think that there is two sides to us all. The parent side that is promotes stability and security, Then there is the carnal side that likes, sex and being wild. I think that we have to be willing to open up to both sides to be happy. I am still young and there's a lot I want to do before I am unable to.


You keep referring to it as a fantasy. And therefore it is making her uncomfortable, not because she has the fantasy, but because you are pushing her to make it a reality. I think. Why haven't y'all done it yet, have the two of you checked out any hook-up sites, have you taken any steps? I'm sure there are sites dedicated to this kind of thing. Who brings it up to make it reality? You or her? I love the suggestion of going to a strip club, private dances, etc. If there's nothing in your area... Take a day trip, or vacation... I think it would be awesome, but my H finishes the job 

And I see her side and I do think it is in poor taste to make something like this reality when you have small children that rely on the family unit so dearly...and statistics show it can destroy a marriage and thus destroying the family unit Does your wife know that she can have this fantasy, behind closed doors and no one has to know but the two of you? Maybe that's part of her problem, maybe she knows this won't be y'alls little secret, truly, when it becomes reality you have another being involved..


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

badbane said:


> Will consider trying this. Only problem is they passed a law here making it illegal for nudity and lap dances. Hell an adult club has to wear outfite less revealing than hooters pretty much now. So I will find out where we can go. I think my wife is struggling with the fact that she thinks she has to be a perfect mom and admitting she has these freaky and kinky fatasies makes her a bad mom. Maybe that's true but I try to separate the two. I think that there is two sides to us all. The parent side that is promotes stability and security, Then there is the carnal side that likes, sex and being wild. I think that we have to be willing to open up to both sides to be happy. I am still young and there's a lot I want to do before I am unable to.


That is why I brought the strip club up. Why rush it into something that could be harmful, when you can take baby steps. Start with her getting a lap dance and you watching ( if you can find that). Then maybe you both get one by the same girl, same time. Then move on to maybe something more in depth. No need to rush these things.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

DawnD said:


> That is why I brought the strip club up. Why rush it into something that could be harmful, when you can take baby steps. Start with her getting a lap dance and you watching ( if you can find that). Then maybe you both get one by the same girl, same time. Then move on to maybe something more in depth. No need to rush these things.


I have never taken my wife to one. I would really like to. I think I'll do it the beginning of next year. too much going on right now. Toddler and step kids are cramping our style.


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

I stumbled upon this thread and read thru the whole thing feeling the need to sign up to this site just to respond and give advice the the OP.

My wife and I have been married almost 10 years now and together for 13. We have a 2 wonderful little boys 6 and 3. When I first met my wife I knew she had a slight interest in girls but nothing more then sexy dancing with her friends or the occasional kiss.....nothing that ever bothered me. I played in a band when we met. Right before we got married we went to the wedding of our guitarist.....well at the end of the night we ended up back at our bassist hotel with his girlfriend and my wife having sex while we both watched. I love it!

Eventually I left the band right before my first son was born so we never saw that couple again....but even after that and before I left the band things were never weird.

Now fast forward to this year my son became really good friends with a boy in his class. Well his parents are a young couple (10 years younger than my wife and I) who are really cool and down to earth people. We vibe very well with them and our kids get along great. Well my wife has been saying she gets a vibe from the other women for weeks and was seeing the same thing happening that happened years ago. Well they met us at a concert weeks ago and my wife and her ended up making out (no sex). A week after that I had to go out of town with my boys for the night with my wife staying home because she had to work (works at night). 

Well her work ended up calling her out and she had been "flirting" with this other women by text again. The girl asked her to come over their house to hang out....well obviously you know what could happen ; )

She called me to ask if i would be all right with it and I said yes even though I was bummed I was not going to be there. She went.....they did have drinks, had sex while her husband just watched. HE DID NOT TOUCH HER...nor did she want him too. She said he felt really bad i was not there and he even texted me 100 times that night asking me if i was sure it was ok to see my wife do that with his.

Now we plan on going on a date night 3 weekend from now while our kids are at their grandparents homes.....and we will see what happens....more then likely our wives may have sex again while we watch.

My point to all of this is that my sex life has, for the most part, been VERY good with my wife. It even has ramped up in recent years for some reason as we became very open with each other. Could this lead to something weird for us down the road? Is suppose but than the chances are that it won't either. We are totally comfortable with each other.

I say you take your chance AS LONG as you and your wife are VERY open with each other.....and take it slow at first.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> So, this fantasy - why does it have to become reality ??? Why don't the two of you just use it between yourselves as spice?


Yep. We do this.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think allowmg your wife to meet the other couple for sex alone was a mistake. Your wife knew it too. Now you are the outsider intruding on their sex life
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I think allowmg your wife to meet the other couple for sex alone was a mistake. Your wife knew it too. Now you are the outsider intruding on their sex life
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


was that to me? 

because I'm confused by what you are saying.....


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

SeaMaiden said:


> 99.9% of the time fantasy is WAY better then reality ever could be.


how would you know if you never tried.....

also where are you getting those percentages from


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

fargas said:


> was that to me?
> 
> because I'm confused by what you are saying.....


Yes it was for you.

You gave your wife permission to start a sexual relationship with another couple without you. It was no doubt no accident they picked when ou were away to invite her over. I think you'll find they don't really want you around. They invited her into their bed, not her and you. You should pay attention at how they do/don't include you in things, how they will arrange special events when oh can't make it etc. just remember to come backin a few months when this goes sour on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

SeaMaiden said:


> To each his own Fargas - not something I'd ever try and make reality and if my husband suggested it the answer would be no. Sure I fantasize about it, if a woman tells you she doesn't she's most likely lying or religiously guilty, but in reality I couldn't do it. Just not me. May have worked for you and your wife, most likely because your wife is bi, but it may not work out well for Badbane. He just needs to be aware of where it could lead and gauge how much he wants to risk it.


i agree with almost every thing you say...some things work for some people while for others it does not but making the statement that "99% of the time the fantasy is better then the reality" or painting this "doom and gloom" picture for hime when you have NO CLUE what it would be like to fullfil this fantasy is just wrong of you....with those statements you are telling him that it, more than likely, will not work out

also yes i would consider my wife somewhat bi.....any women that enjoys doing that is probably bi in one way or another.


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Yes it was for you.
> 
> You gave your wife permission to start a sexual relationship with another couple without you. It was no doubt no accident they picked when ou were away to invite her over. I think you'll find they don't really want you around. They invited her into their bed, not her and you. You should pay attention at how they do/don't include you in things, how they will arrange special events when oh can't make it etc. just remember to come backin a few months when this goes sour on you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



LOL how ignorant you are

is this how everyone on this site is?

i'm starting to feel that vibe

Hey Nostradamus can you predict anything else for me?


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I am glad to see this thread still kicking. Right now my wife an I are one completely different schedules. To be honest I am still on the fence. This wouldn't be happening until i know that I would be able to be around enough that I knew nothing was happening. 
I get that this is a PANDORA'S BOX thing. I knowing myself I know that I could deal with things like the OW wanting more with me and my wife getting jealous. I had some stuff happen to me when I was younger and certain emotions I am able to turn off. 
I don't know about my wife. I do know that I can handle her if things get out of hand. I have always been able to think level headed in the most extreme situations.
I am curious to the people who have done this and enjoyed it. What did you get out of it?


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

fargas said:


> i agree with almost every thing you say...some things work for some people while for others it does not but making the statement that "99% of the time the fantasy is better then the reality" or painting this "doom and gloom" picture for hime when you have NO CLUE what it would be like to fullfil this fantasy is just wrong of you....with those statements you are telling him that it, more than likely, will not work out
> 
> also yes i would consider my wife somewhat bi.....any women that enjoys doing that is probably bi in one way or another.


Have you read the entire thread? Many of those opposed to badbane fulfilling this are speaking from experience. So yes, posters are letting him know it is most likely a bad idea.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

fargas said:


> LOL how ignorant you are
> 
> is this how everyone on this site is?
> 
> ...


First, calling me names is no way to have a discussion. I didn't insult your intelligence or your motivations. I did flag a highly likely scenario that quite frankly plus out in many situations like you've laid out. You are nw living in an open marriage where your wife has a partner she can have sex without you there. 

Calling me ignorant also is a cheap way of undermining my questions and concens without actually having to address them. 

Look, take what you posted and go visit fetlife and listen to the many warnings you will get about have well set bond area for swinging, including always doing it together and being on the look out for one partner being excluded ,separated , or isolated by the people you play with. Just because you are willing to share does not mean they are too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

badbane said:


> I am glad to see this thread still kicking. Right now my wife an I are one completely different schedules. To be honest I am still on the fence. This wouldn't be happening until i know that I would be able to be around enough that I knew nothing was happening.
> I get that this is a PANDORA'S BOX thing. I knowing myself I know that I could deal with things like the OW wanting more with me and my wife getting jealous. I had some stuff happen to me when I was younger and certain emotions I am able to turn off.
> I don't know about my wife. I do know that I can handle her if things get out of hand. I have always been able to think level headed in the most extreme situations.
> I am curious to the people who have done this and enjoyed it. What did you get out of it?


well you are sort of full filling that fantasy. It probably won't be exactly how you thought it would be....but hopefully it will be what you wanted it to be and not something negative. I felt it made my sex life better from the standpoint that I knew my wife was VERY open about sex and bringing new things into the bedroom without having to worry about her getting upset.

also you first sentence is right on.....don't rush things....make it comfortable and not something "forced".....let it kind of come together naturally.

again this is what worked for us....and hopefully will work for your relationship as well.

how is sex life now with your wife?


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Have you read the entire thread? Many of those opposed to badbane fulfilling this are speaking from experience. So yes, posters are letting him know it is most likely a bad idea.


i read a good portion of it but it seemed most people just were not down with it because either the male or female of the relationship was not really or totally into it from the begining....so yeah obviously it did not work.

again my wife brought it to ME....and I was totally down with it....so we went into it with a positive outlook.


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> First, calling me names is no way to have a discussion. I didn't insult your intelligence or your motivations. I did flag a highly likely scenario that quite frankly plus out in many situations like you've laid out. You are nw living in an open marriage where your wife has a partner she can have sex without you there.
> 
> Calling me ignorant also is a cheap way of undermining my questions and concens without actually having to address them.
> 
> ...


yeah i realize all of that...and the reason i called you a name (if you call being called a seer an insult I'd like to see if someone called you real bad name) is because right off the bat you just assumed a bunch of things that totally are not true....and you know what happens when you assume....


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

fargas said:


> yeah i realize all of that...and the reason i called you a name (if you call being called a seer an insult I'd like to see if someone called you real bad name) is because right off the bat you just assumed a bunch of things that totally are not true....and you know what happens when you assume....


I think it was calling me "ignorant" which I took offense at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

fargas said:


> i read a good portion of it but it seemed most people just were not down with it because either the male or female of the relationship was not really or totally into it from the begining....so yeah obviously it did not work.
> 
> again my wife brought it to ME....and I was totally down with it....so we went into it with a positive outlook.


And from what I can gather from the OP is that his wife has doubts, as does he, her more than him though... I think you might gather that as well if read some of his responses, but maybe its just me. People here are offering up thoughts based on experience in all types of scenarios. 

But you're right, if both are gung ho about it... Go for it!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

fargas said:


> i read a good portion of it but it seemed most people just were not down with it because either the male or female of the relationship was not really or totally into it from the begining....so yeah obviously it did not work.
> 
> again my wife brought it to ME....and I was totally down with it....so we went into it with a positive outlook.


And my wife brought it to me, as well. We were both enthused about it. Yet she's also the one who pulled the plug before it happened, having determined that the risks weren't worth the potential reward. I think you'll find, if you look at the entire thread, that most advising against it are doing so from one of two perspectives:
1) personal experience
or
2) noting the inherent unpredictability of adding another live human being into the mix, which brings along a whole new set of emotions, actions and reactions for all involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

Cherry said:


> And from what I can gather from the OP is that his wife has doubts, as does he, her more than him though... I think you might gather that as well if read some of his responses, but maybe its just me. People here are offering up thoughts based on experience in all types of scenarios.
> 
> But you're right, if both are gung ho about it... Go for it!


oh i just took her bringing it to him a good sign that she is totally down with it.....everyone i think has some sort of doubts....i mean i still do yet we have future plans with this other couple. Obviously anything can happen but if you are the type of person (and your spouse as well) that can handle your emotions well than those doubts should not be a problem.


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

Grayson said:


> And my wife brought it to me, as well. We were both enthused about it. Yet she's also the one who pulled the plug before it happened, having determined that the risks weren't worth the potential reward. I think you'll find, if you look at the entire thread, that most advising against it are doing so from one of two perspectives:
> 1) personal experience
> or
> 2) noting the inherent unpredictability of adding another live human being into the mix, which brings along a whole new set of emotions, actions and reactions for all involved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



well than that is good that she pulled the plug because that shows you (at least it would me) that she never was really into it happening in real life from the get go.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

fargas said:


> well than that is good that she pulled the plug because that shows you (at least it would me)* that she never was really into it happening in real life from the get go*.


I don't think I'd agree with that assessment. She brought the subject up with no prompting, admitting she'd had the desire since she was a teenager. She had a strong attraction to a lesbian friend of ours (strong enough that it resulted in an EA). But, she concluded that I would end up overly jealous (at least) if we went through with it. Risks outweighed reward. One can still be "really into it happening in real life" and still decide that it's not worth making a reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

Grayson said:


> I don't think I'd agree with that assessment. She brought the subject up with no prompting, admitting she'd had the desire since she was a teenager. She had a strong attraction to a lesbian friend of ours (strong enough that it resulted in an EA). But, she concluded that I would end up overly jealous (at least) if we went through with it. Risks outweighed reward. One can still be "really into it happening in real life" and still decide that it's not worth making a reality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh ok well that makes sense as well.....I didn't know that she thought you would get jealous.....again though it's goood you guys really talked about it instead of just jumping right in.


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

SeaMaiden said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_Fargas - just because it's not something I'd do, does not mean I haven't talked to people who have, one being my husband with his EX wife (note EX).
> 
> And when your wife wants to have sex with this woman's husband? Is it still fun to you? What about when she does have sex with him when you aren't there?


why are you just assuming all those things are going to happen???

Have I thought about the possibility of that? sure.....but again I have so much trust in my wife that I know it would not happen unless I allowed it to happen with my rules (obviously hers as well).

Maybe some people just do not have that really close relationship that other couples have....i have full trust in my wife...that is why I think my marriage works so well.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Okay thank you fargas for sharing but lets not let this turn into a flame war please. I don't like seen people on here with banned under their name. This is should be a no judgement infromative thread. Stop bickering and the childish back and forth. I realize the gravity of this topic and the passion people have here on TAM. So please lets play nice even if you are screaming at your computer screen on the other end.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

as someone who came close to going down a similar road (even signed up for SLS and met some people) I can tell you it is a huge waste of time

finding a single woman to "play" with a couple is called a unicorn because they are impossible to find and get


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

okay let's pretend you plan this out to minimize risk

you discuss every scenario possible and set every boundary possible because in order to pull this off you need to have rock solid boundaries of what each partner is comfortable with the other doing. Trust me there are a ton of things that can happen that you need to plan for and address before it happens and you get into a big fight because one of you did something the other did not like.


okay, so then the next step is finding a woman

options-

1) craigslist ad- probably unlikely to get someone of "quality", peruse it and you'll see just how other couples are looking for the same thing you are, and if you do get lucky, then you have to go through a vetting process, meetings, fakes (ie. men who want pics) and probably over a 70% chance of a no-show. Very likely you waste a ton of time with this.

2) Dating site that is specifically designed for these types of meetings- SLS is probably the best site for this (swinglifestyle). The couples looking for these unicorns is probably a 30 to 1 ratio or worse. And if you do get lucky you have to go through the whole vetting, meeting, fakes, no show crap (probably less of a chance of fakes and no shows on that site) 

3) Sex club- these places do exist and if you can find one then have a strong stomach (not everyone in swinging is pretty) and be prepared to turn lots of couples down and good luck finding an available unicorn. Plus it's somewhat skeevy to be there and the sex would likely be...uh...public

4) Finding someone in real life. Good luck with that

5) Escort or strip joint- expensive and higher risk of disease or being arrested




so, you can see that it even if you determine that the reward outweighs the risk, it can be a huge time suck


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

SeaMaiden said:


> Well then I guess you are that 0.1%
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i'd love to see where you people on this site get these "percentages" from.....


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

badbane said:


> Okay thank you fargas for sharing but lets not let this turn into a flame war please. I don't like seen people on here with banned under their name. This is should be a no judgement infromative thread. Stop bickering and the childish back and forth. I realize the gravity of this topic and the passion people have here on TAM. So please lets play nice even if you are screaming at your computer screen on the other end.


I'm not making it a flame war or just trolling....but the assuming that goes on is just amazing to me.

Obviously this site is full of people who have had bad experiences in their sexual/married life...i get that. It sort of like when people complain on Amazon about a product in the review section because people tend to take time out of their day to ***** and moan about something they hate instead of commenting on something that they love...that, what I'm seeing now, is something that must go here a lot.

I mean jeez even look at our News channels....how often does the news start with a GOOD story??? never usually...unless the day was so tame that they could not find something BAD to talk about.

I just thought I would give you an actual good experience I've had....instead of all the negative that I have been reading here.

I just don't like when people assume because it did not work for their relationship that it will not work for "99%" of the other married couples out there as well.

again people tend to talk more about the bad


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

fargas said:


> I'm not making it a flame war or just trolling....but the assuming that goes on is just amazing to me.
> 
> Obviously this site is full of people who have had bad experiences in their sexual/married life...i get that. It sort of like when people complain on Amazon about a product in the review section because people tend to take time out of their day to ***** and moan about something they hate instead of commenting on something that they love...that, what I'm seeing now, is something that must go here a lot.
> 
> ...


Wasn't talking about you specifically. Just play nice.


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

SeaMaiden said:


> Actually it comes from researching this whole lifestyle with my first husband, talking to couples on sites like almostrecovered mentioned, and seeing that there was alot of unhappiness going on, alot of pressuring from one spouse onto another. Alot of "I don't care what he / she does on their own anymore". My current husband was involved in it with his ex wife, boundaries were set, she didn't respect them, feelings were hurt, relationship ended. So of the people I talked to, a vast majority of th regretted ever doing it. That's where my percentage comes from. Sorry not a text book statistic to make you happy, just my observation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i realize that but your observations are coming from MOSTLY people on sites that did not enjoy it......hence why you are on those sites as well. Have you ever gone to a swinging site or anything of that nature and talked to people that have made it work and are very happy with their lifestyle?


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> So why isn't this classified as cheating Badbane?


Its not cheating if you have permission.


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

SeaMaiden said:


> I'm talking about Lifestyle Lounge and SwingLifeStyle, those were the sites I was talking to people on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


fair enough...i never read Lifestlye Lounge but I have been on SwinglifeStyle and I have read A TON of people that are happy with the lifestyle they have chosen and are still VERY married.

yeah I've seen bad ones on there as well


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Knew someone who was into that trading/sharing stuff. Sounded like they treated each other with little respect, especially the women, once the crowd got to know them. I do mean crowd. There will be more than just one, lots more. You will be able to go to certain places where the "club members" hang out. Your wife and you will walk in and the guys will grab her and touch her. How will you guys be able to get that respect back? Maybe that doesn't bother you, I don't know. What will you do when she is dared to do a bunch of guys in the parking lot of the place or when you are at a bar and turn to look for her and she is gone? How will you feel? Don't worry though, she'll be right back, but don't kiss her till she brushes her teeth. I am not saying this will happen. I just want to share some thoughts. It is your life.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Think very very long about this one. There are many things which you might not think about. None of which are pleasant. It might be the thing that changes both of you forever, with no chance of regaining what you once were.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Knew someone who was into that trading/sharing stuff. Sounded like they treated each other with little respect, especially the women, once the crowd got to know them. I do mean crowd. There will be more than just one, lots more. You will be able to go to certain places where the "club members" hang out. Your wife and you will walk in and the guys will grab her and touch her. How will you guys be able to get that respect back? Maybe that doesn't bother you, I don't know. What will you do when she is dared to do a bunch of guys in the parking lot of the place or when you are at a bar and turn to look for her and she is gone? How will you feel? Don't worry though, she'll be right back, but don't kiss her till she brushes her teeth. I am not saying this will happen. I just want to share some thoughts. It is your life.


That seems pretty extreme. I don't really agree with the lifestyle but I would think it wouldn't be that hard to have a rule that all swapping is equal. That if a man wants her he has to provide his wife to him. That escalating to gang bangs in parking lots is off limits.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

fargas said:


> fair enough...i never read Lifestlye Lounge but I have been on SwinglifeStyle and I have read A TON of people that are happy with the lifestyle they have chosen and are still VERY married.
> 
> yeah I've seen bad ones on there as well



I felt the same way when reading that site yet, everyone I met from there gave off signals that something was off, you could just sense that one of the couples felt forced into it or that they hated each other or something was just plain weird

I don't doubt that there are some committed couples who can pull this off, it's just nowhere as common as the site makes it seem.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

2ntnuf said:


> Knew someone who was into that trading/sharing stuff. Sounded like they treated each other with little respect, especially the women, once the crowd got to know them. I do mean crowd. There will be more than just one, lots more. You will be able to go to certain places where the "club members" hang out. Your wife and you will walk in and the guys will grab her and touch her. How will you guys be able to get that respect back? Maybe that doesn't bother you, I don't know. What will you do when she is dared to do a bunch of guys in the parking lot of the place or when you are at a bar and turn to look for her and she is gone? How will you feel? Don't worry though, she'll be right back, but don't kiss her till she brushes her teeth. I am not saying this will happen. I just want to share some thoughts. It is your life.


That reminds me, I dated a guy once who wanted the sharing/swapping thing. This was a long time ago and it was certainly a more casual relationship. 

We went to two different swinging clubs, because I entertained the thought for a minute. I've seen a few mention those on this thread. One that we went to was pretty gross. And I swear Richard gere was there, and made a pass at me.. lol. Anyway, there were clothed and unclothed people there. There were people making out/having sex on the dance floor and in private rooms..sort of private anyway. I guess my buddy frequented them often and suggested if I talk to a guy or girl in the club, that gave the go ahead that we were down with swapping. 

We left shortly after got there.


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## stupidGuy (Jul 13, 2012)

no offence but some people seem a bit prudish here..
I cannot imagine how a man can be jealous of his wife dating another woman? Lol, actually there was a time when my wife had that fantasy and I told her to feel free and do whatever she wanted as long as no other man was involved. As a result I got a phone call from my wife one day to come by (she was visiting a friend) and I was going to have pretty crazy night..

Disclaimer: All of this happened about 10 years ago, our relation was really good back then and it never took "damage" from that. It was an adventure that we both enjoyed...


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Knew someone who was into that trading/sharing stuff. Sounded like they treated each other with little respect, especially the women, once the crowd got to know them. I do mean crowd. There will be more than just one, lots more. You will be able to go to certain places where the "club members" hang out. Your wife and you will walk in and the guys will grab her and touch her. How will you guys be able to get that respect back? Maybe that doesn't bother you, I don't know. What will you do when she is dared to do a bunch of guys in the parking lot of the place or when you are at a bar and turn to look for her and she is gone? How will you feel? Don't worry though, she'll be right back, but don't kiss her till she brushes her teeth. I am not saying this will happen. I just want to share some thoughts. It is your life.


ehh...I do not go to those clubs and never would.

I'm not even into swinging.....but my wife likes to hook up with a chic every once in a blue moon and i'm all game for that.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

stupidGuy said:


> no offence but some people seem a bit prudish here..
> *I cannot imagine how a man can be jealous of his wife dating another woman?* Lol, actually there was a time when my wife had that fantasy and I told her to feel free and do whatever she wanted as long as no other man was involved. As a result I got a phone call from my wife one day to come by (she was visiting a friend) and I was going to have pretty crazy night..
> 
> Disclaimer: All of this happened about 10 years ago, our relation was really good back then and it never took "damage" from that. It was an adventure that we both enjoyed...


Because everyone is an individual human being with their own thoughts and feelings, maybe?

Jealousy knows no gender. Real-life anecdote. I know it will sound like I made it up, but it's a true story:

There are some people I used to work with: a married couple and another woman. The wife in the couple identified herself as bi. According to both her and her husband, they would sometimes find a woman for her. The third party was a lesbian. She struck up a good platonic friendship with the couple. She and the wife fell for one another, the wife determined that, rather than bi, she was gay. She and her husband divorced, and the two women have now been together as long (or longer) than she and her husband were together.

Now, will this happen every time? Of course not. But the more people (and their emotions) that you introduce into a relationship, the more unknowns you introduce.

Despite the near-demise of our marriage due to her infidelity (with a man), I still feel that my wife being with another woman is something that I can see differently. She disagrees. And, rather than risk giving our marriage a double-tap to the head, she opts to let the fantasy remain just that.


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## stupidGuy (Jul 13, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Because everyone is an individual human being with their own thoughts and feelings, maybe?


sure, but I also wrote that *I* could not imagine being jealous of a woman... sry if I made the impression to imply something for other people (obviousely, English is not my first language. I did not mean to be harsh but I see that my writing was not very adequate..)



Grayson said:


> There are some people I used to work with: a married couple and another woman. The wife in the couple identified herself as bi. According to both her and her husband, they would sometimes find a woman for her. The third party was a lesbian. She struck up a good platonic friendship with the couple. She and the wife fell for one another, the wife determined that, rather than bi, she was gay. She and her husband divorced, and the two women have now been together as long (or longer) than she and her husband were together.
> 
> Now, will this happen every time? Of course not. But the more people (and their emotions) that you introduce into a relationship, the more unknowns you introduce.


That story seems very sad for the husband indeed. However, if it didn`t happen that way, then it could have ended very sad for the woman. Imagine the tragedy of noticing to have lived a live not in accord with ones desires/nature when it is too late? On the other hand, *from my perspective*, this is still a way to lose your love that allows for a good and friendly relationship after, it has the flavor of an "act of nature beyond control" i.e. no one can be blamed...

rgrds


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

stupidGuy said:


> That story seems very sad for the husband indeed. However, if it didn`t happen that way, then it could have ended very sad for the woman. Imagine the tragedy of noticing to have lived a live not in accord with ones desires/nature when it is too late? On the other hand, *from my perspective*, this is still a way to lose your love that allows for a good and friendly relationship after, it has the flavor of an "act of nature beyond control" i.e. no one can be blamed...
> 
> rgrds


That's a very sugar coated answer.

When one partner begins an affair with another person, rarely does it end with everyone being friends and the one spouse being liberated from her sexual shackles. When the wife started a relationship outside of her husband's knowledge/blessing with this woman (IE, seeing her without the husbands consent), that's an affair. I doubt many people on here would look at that situation and say 'yeah, that's cool that my wife is licking lips with another woman behind my back. She was a lesbain anyways and it's great that she has followed her sexual desires this way. Let's all be friends.' 

Think of it in another light. If I wanted sex with my wife 10 times a day, and she didn't, is it ok for me to go and get a mistress on the side so I could satisfy whatever cravings my wife couldn't/wouldn't? No, it's not. So how is it ok if the mistress is the same sex?


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## fargas (Jul 25, 2012)

SeaMaiden said:


> Ah, see, there is the difference, it's not a lifestyle for you and your wife, it's something you do on occasion, as you say "every once in a blue moon". I think it's the couples that get seriously into the whole lifestyle on a regular basis, those are the ones who tend to eventually have problems in their relationships. A very small percentage may actually have a lasting relationship, but I didn't seem to run into any that sounded like they were truly in love with their partner. It was very strange to me, and I reasoned that the risks, at least for me, were not worth it. Now OP may be different... then again he may just be like you and have the occasional encounter which may work for them.


yeah I could never do that lifestyle...it would seem very strange to me....and quite frankly it's not anything I feel I need in my life.


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## MakeItADouble (Nov 8, 2012)

I hate to bring up an semi-old topic, but as I only recently happened on this site, I can't very well go back in time. 

To start, There is NOTHING wrong with fantasy, nor is there anything INHERENTLY wrong with making that a reality. All the attitudes and speaking from experience aside, YOUR particular situation does not dictate anyone else's. Obviously if your spouse did XXX, or you had friends that YYY happened to, you would be gunshy, but THOSE experiences should not control what happens when you are with someone you believe you are meant to be with. Guess what? If fantasy fulfillment leads to the end of the line, then it wasn't meant to be.

I did love the Cocaine analogy, so I am NOT discounting that the introduction of ZZZ won't be the catalyst for bad things happening. Similarly, she could just as easily try cocaine on her own (or cheat or whatever) and the same result occurs. I WOULD rather be there the first time to make sure things don't go wrong. If I didn't agree with it and didn't think it was good for us, I would protest. THAT alone might be the end if she REALLY want to try it.

So, I agree with Fargas and have a very similar story. Married over 10 years now with two grown kids (my steps). Wife knew my greatest fantasy was seeing her with another woman. She allowed that with one of her friends in our fifth year of marriage and it was the greatest gift ever! Since then, we have SPORADICALLY enjoyed it a few times and it has kept things new and taken our sex life from a 6/7 to a 10! 

We have our RULES that are SET IN STONE and some rules that are more flexible depending on the situation. I understand all the nay sayers and those who don't agree. That is fine for you and you have every right to NOT want this as much as some of us DO want it. I know for myself, I would not be as happy in life without this. Maybe that is indicative of mental issues I need to resolve, but I guarantee it has nothing to do with the sanctity or seriousness of my relationship. It is JUST like spicing it up with role play or toys.

I also understand those who can't get past the "Other Person" aspect. While I don't want to compare the OP to an object, for this purpose, they understand they are not coming into a relationship for themselves; This is not the time for developing values and learning about them, this is raw animilistic enjoyment. They are single, sexually explorative women and usually, very good friends. We love and care for them as any other friend we have and they know this. They also know at the end of the day, we will remain the couple and if they want to have this type of fun in the future, they know who to call. And yes, we do hang out with them OUTSIDE of this aspect and enjoy their company as PEOPLE WITH THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. 

We just also happen to enjoy mature, adult fun that is respectful and mutually beneficial.

Does it invite problems? Most certainly it can, but if you are open and communicative and everyone knows their role for this adventure, it can REALLY open up a new world.

So OP, I hope you understand it CAN be great just as you understand it CAN lead to things that you don't want to happen. The risk/reward is something only you can assess and the import of this in your life and relationship is something only you will know. Do you trust her to go to a bar alone and know she will come home to you? Do you stay up sleepless when she works late or do you ACTUALLY trust each other and want to make each other happy, regardless of how demented or perverted others might think? For us, this works and just as ANYTHING can happen to us, I trust that we will survive just as sure as those who would never think of doing this believe they will not fall victim to infidelity or worse.

Hope this helped.


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