# Not just sex - intimacy



## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

- here goes...
I'll keep this as brief as possible-
Been married 17 years. Right off the bat my wife became cold and *****y. She is a wonderful mother, but not intimate or in to having sex. She used to avoid it ALL THE TIME. I am a communicator and she isn't. For years I asked what was wrong, what could I do... I blamed myself. I worked out (I enjoy working out) took her to weekends away... tried it all. We would fight about it, but most of all she doesn't like to talk about it. Sex in her household growing up was a taboo subject.
I'm a really positive happy person and enjoy life to the fullest. This lack of intimacy was the only blemish in my life. I enjoy being a father, coaching soccer, and being a husband -and I realize I am probably more affectionate than most guys - I love the touch a a woman and enjoy physical, non physical and sexual interaction.
- Well one day I had an epiphany. My wife was staying home, going to Yoga, my daughter was in mother's morning out a few days a week - so my wife's life was really plush. AND SHE CANT EVEN BE NICE TO ME?? So, I made a decision to stop being the perfect husband and do whatever the hell I wanted to. I'd go on hunting trips out West, travel here and yonder with no regard to what she wished. I filled the void she was leaving me with my hobbies, working out or spending time with my kids. I refused to blame myself any longer. I even told her up front: If you don't want to have sex with me or show me affection, I bet there is someone out there who will.
And there was: I had a 3 year long affair and I know many of you will judge me, but it was WONDERFUL. This lady was going through her separation / divorce and I was there for her (otherwise she would never have been involved with a married man- she was weak). We connected like bookends and I firmly believe that she was the best match for me out of all the girls I ever dated. I was co-existing with my wife, there for my kids and my GF was exceeding all of my other needs.
- I knew this wasn't going to work long term. My GF was giving me the ultimatum to leave or it was over. Before that happened, my GF flew the two off us off to a plush resort out West for my birthday. We 'got busted'. So I obviously left (or was thrown out rather). 
I started moving down the road of divorce, but after a few weeks of being out of the home my wife started wanting to work things out. Her words were, "I've been a terrible wife finding out about your mistress was like an awakening slap in the face". She pledged to work on it. 
I didn't want to go back b/c I was head over heels in love with my GF. B U T... here was my problem: I could not handle being away from my kids. I missed them terribly. Seeing them anything less than FULL time was killing me. Unless I would have had full custody which would never happen, I could not stomach being away from them. I know people do the shared custody thing every day, but for me it is impossible. 
Knowing I was giving up the love of my life I was tempted to go back. My wife and I started going to counseling and she began initiating sex, was really into it. Showing me affection, kissing (we hadn't kissed in years - sex was just a physical act up until then).
I went back....
Flash forward to now. While my wife now has sex with me every other day which is a vast improvement over the old days of every other week or once a week - she is just doing it to keep me happy. She is back to being *****y and spoiled acting. Whenever I try to put my hands on her in the kitchen, or where ever she pushes me away.. just like the old days. When I complain she says, "I give you plenty of sex". I then try to explain for the 400th time that its' about intimacy, about her enjoying me touching/kissing her and genuinely reciprocating. Nada.

So here I am in what I call a loveless marriage. I keep telling myself that I have my kids and that this is most important.

I feel like she baited me back and switched to her old self. I'm not telling you folks anything I haven't told her in front of a shrink or one-on-one.

I keep myself on the upbeat by filling the void with working out, my outdoor hobbies and my kids. 

Often I tell her, "I can't make you love me - why did you act like you were in to me just to get me back, just so you could revert back to your old self"?? 

In addition to it all, I would now be financially decimated if I left her.

Why is she this way, dammit? I find her attractive and she says she finds me attractive too. But, here we are.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

"Whenever I try to put my hands on her in the kitchen, or where ever she pushes me away.. just like the old days. When I complain she says, "I give you plenty of sex""

She's equating intimacy with sex. I think she sees every instance of intimacy leading to sex.

When you go to bed, do you cuddle, without sex? When you watch TV, are you close?

Then again, yes she could realize that her live would be a lot worse if you left. She realized this once and figures that having sex with you will keep you around.

Try more non-sexual intimacy and see what happens (and don't make it groping her in the kitchen when she's trying to cook).

If that doesn't help, you have to decide whether finances and kids outweigh the lack of intimacy.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

What about quality time they say you should spend a minimum of 10 hours a week doing things with your spouse with out the kids and no watching tv at nite doesnt count i am talking about walks in park jogging shared hobbies etc


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm amazed that you went back expecting anything different. She baited you back because the gravy train was pulling out. You got played.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

People rarely really change. They can put on an act briefly but we are who we are. An orange tree produces oranges. Selfish young people become selfish adults. The same dishonest heart at age 18 will still be dishonest at 80. When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

The bait each time was her acting nice.
You fell for it well not once but twice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

So - as I think about this it's a predictable cycle: We have sex about every other day. The problem is, when I initiate its like she's been asked to pass the salt. There's no passion. I know what it's like to have someone crave me, beg me to come over and be with her-- and I miss that. I know it's not real life to expect that all the time but somewhat regularly isn't out of the question is it?
I bend over backwards to make sure she is taken care of - in and out of the bedroom. I enjoy making her feel good (ie oral). She's never asked me to do anything, I just do it. However, I have to hold a gun to her head to get a BJ. We once went over 2 years without romantically kissing (yet still having sex every other day).
-- So I've read about the 180 here and I had actually been doing a version of it. This is our cycle. 
I'll try and get her to respond with more affection OR I'll call her out for giving in to sex and it RUINS it if I feel like she is doing it out of "duty". 
So, I'll do the 180 and it will get to her. She will get sweet for a day or so and initiate... and two days later it is back to the beginning of the lack of affection cycle.
Now when she gets "Sweet" I say, "well this will last 2 days" b/c I've seen it happen 500 times. 

I'm sour and mad at myself b/c I had someone that loved me unconditionally and begged me to stay separated and be with them. PLUS they were more beautiful and had successful career.

I'm trying to make this work through communication and I woud be happy if she were in to me.

MC was a waste of my money b/c she never did any of the "homework" nor did she change behavior.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Ha, the wife and I had gone over 8 years without affectionate kissing...no passion at all.
Once I started the MAP and she was drawn back to me, neither one of us could explain why the kissing stopped. Each of us just assumed it was because of foul breath or something, but we both acknowledged it certainly wasn't that. She said I was a really good kisser and I told her I love her soft luscious lips.
We had less than a week of rekindled kissing and it is starting to drift again. I am not the one pulling away, she is.
I was told that she just can't jump into passionate kissing, that she needs worked up to it. So she just added another layer of foreplay, which I don't mind, but she is using it as an attempt to further distance herself...I can see and feel it.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Sorry -- I'm a newbie: I don't know all of these abbreviations.

MAB??


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Male Action Plan..

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

When you have sex with your wife, do you make it about passion? Or do you get down and dirty? I found my wife was more receptive to the Good guy out of the bedroom, but when we got in the bedroom, I went into dominant mode. I would tie her up and talk dirty and she loved it. She would even talk dirty back to me. I dont do it all the time though. We have our intimacy issues also, but I have managed to increase the frequency of sex to at least 1-2 times per month. My goal is once a week, and in similiar situation as yours.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

jarhed said:


> -
> 
> Why is she this way, dammit? .



Let me tell you, she has the capability to become really cold , insensitive. Even your affair didn't move her much inside. Her only need was to regain her control over you and she did it.


I hope she is not a covert narcissist. Educate yourself about it, It is not something that you can ignore. Google it.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

McMuffin- I've tried getting a little "dirty" with her and that is NOT something she gets in to. She doesn't even like it when I talk about sex. I attribute this to her sheltered / Baptist up bringing. She won't even have sloppy drunk sex! I love that every once-in-a-while!

SweetandSour: I had friend tell me the same thing and I googled narcissistic wife and it didn't seem like her. I'll do some more research.... I think she was just raised spoiled (private school, self centered, her dad funded her until we married - Hell, he was the happiest man at my wedding!).


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

jarhed said:


> McMuffin- I've tried getting a little "dirty" with her and that is NOT something she gets in to. She doesn't even like it when I talk about sex. I attribute this to her sheltered / Baptist up bringing. She won't even have sloppy drunk sex! I love that every once-in-a-while!
> 
> SweetandSour: I had friend tell me the same thing and I googled narcissistic wife and it didn't seem like her. I'll do some more research.... I think she was just raised spoiled (private school, self centered, her dad funded her until we married - Hell, he was the happiest man at my wedding!).


It is not just narcissist it is COVERT narcissist. There is a big difference as to how they present themselves. My COVERT wife is the most giving, morally responsable person when you first meet her or was for the first years of our marriage or when she feels like you buy it (it is not a consiensous beheavior in her part, just her ill nature) and she has a use for it.

My wife was also raised and thought in a religous environement, she was spoiled too, that's explosive. She had to survive. She knew she was a misfit and her little young brain was not able to handle all in peace and process herself into reality. Now she is a monster in my opinion.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> It is not just narcissist it is COVERT narcissist. There is a big difference as to how they present themselves. My COVERT wife is the most giving, morally responsable person when you first meet her or was for the first years of our marriage or when she feels like you buy it and she has a use for it.
> 
> My wife was also raised and thought in a religous environement, she was spoiled too, that's explosive. She had to survive. She knew she was a misfit and her little young brain was not able to handle all in peace and process herself to reality. Now she is a monster in my opinion.


WOW -- what is her behavior like?

My wife is a great mother, she puts the kids first, she even sits and kisses the dog all the time. She is just spoiled and feels entitled. When she wasn't working she felt she needed an Iphone with email, etc. She wants a nice vehicle, Yoga, personal trainer, botox, etc. 

I just come dead last. When I had ACL surgery on my knee after the first day I couldn't get up to even piss without being in pain. She came in and said, "Do I need to stay here or can you handle things on your own". Now, if the kids are sick she cuddles them.

Its' simple: I am at the bottom of the totem pole. Meeting my needs comes last: after her exercising, getting nails done, botox, hair appt. She doesn't call me names or isn't cruel to me - just indifferent. So, I don't think she is Narcissistic as I see it defined.
Your thoughts?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

jarhed said:


> Its' simple: I am at the bottom of the totem pole. Meeting my needs comes last: after her exercising, getting nails done, botox, hair appt. She doesn't call me names or isn't cruel to me - just indifferent. So, I don't think she is Narcissistic as I see it defined.
> Your thoughts?


She does this because this is who she is and how she sees her priorities. She continues to do this to YOU because you continue to stick around. After 17 years, she isn't going to change, and apparently, neither are you...you continue to accept this life with her.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

jarhed said:


> WOW -- what is her behavior like?
> 
> My wife is a great mother, she puts the kids first, she even sits and kisses the dog all the time. She is just spoiled and feels entitled. When she wasn't working she felt she needed an Iphone with email, etc. She wants a nice vehicle, Yoga, personal trainer, botox, etc.
> 
> ...


AGAIN not narcissist, COVERT narcissist.

COVERT NARCISSIST.

They are all good mothers when their kids are babies and not so when kids are grown enough to show their indivisual personalities.

She is ENTITELED.
She easily dismiss some people as they don't exist.
For her, beng distant to you or others is like second nature, She almost prefers to be DISTANT rather than enjoying fellow other human beings company.
She, in her own way, dies (she thinks) to be good to you, but she can not really see you, does not care who you really are and sometimes you can see that hollow look in her eyes when you expect to see some feeling or couple of tears.

They are always right (not really) and cold, very cold.

Inside, they live alone, die alone, drag us along. You will not get the intimacy. She is not capable. It is not just about sex.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Is there any chance of sex abuse, sex assault, an alcoholic parent, a borderline personality disordered mother, or other abuse/trauma in her childhood?

There are lots of reasons which could explain her being the way she is. Bottom line is she is the way she is. She isn't going to change without a huge motivator, and even then she may not change.

You should set boundaries and expectations rather than look to her for explanations. Either she meets your needs as a wife or she does not. If you clearly communicate your needs and boundaries she then has the choice.

Your affair is going to be a huge problem in the marriage. You two need to deal with that topic in therapy.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Maybe there are different degrees of CN?

From what I've read: CN will turn everyone against their spouse. Makes themselves look angelic. Will make their spouse cease to have a life of their own and destroy their friendships. 
This is not her: I have a ton of friends and a ton of hobbies. She never bashes me to anyone and she rarely bashes me to my face. She complains that I make her seem like an object and when I touch her it is always sexual. 

Now, she has siphened finances and is terrible with money: I cured that. She does not have access to savings, has no credit card. She works, but I see little money from her for bills. I pay nearly everything.
She does have sympathy for others: Children, her parents, etc. I think she just views me as a meal ticket, provider, and sperm donor. Like it's my job to put her up in the nice life she has. She gets this entitlement from her father who created this monster.

I'm just not convinced she is a certified CN. Self centered, spoiled -- yes. 

I think possibly we have different languages of love: Her's are acts of service (providing for family and earning good living) and words of praise/recognition.

Mine, physical acts of love and ?? maybe recognition also.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Thor said:


> Is there any chance of sex abuse, sex assault, an alcoholic parent, a borderline personality disordered mother, or other abuse/trauma in her childhood?
> 
> There are lots of reasons which could explain her being the way she is. Bottom line is she is the way she is. She isn't going to change without a huge motivator, and even then she may not change.
> 
> ...


And yes you had the affair with a third person, not her. What ever she is you are not better than her by your actions.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Thor said:


> Is there any chance of sex abuse, sex assault, an alcoholic parent, a borderline personality disordered mother, or other abuse/trauma in her childhood?
> 
> There are lots of reasons which could explain her being the way she is. Bottom line is she is the way she is. She isn't going to change without a huge motivator, and even then she may not change.
> 
> ...


She says she was taken advantage of by a guy in college. He acted like he liked her - seduced her and then never called her. NOT DATE RAPE - he was just a jerk. She claims this scarred her. The fact is she was very unexperienced sexually when I met her. No abuse in the household.

I stopped the therapy b/c she wasn't doing her part of the homework. I swear and I've told her this in front a therapist: She wanted me back in the house b/c I am a great dad, provider and protector. Meal ticket. Whatever. She admitted when she caught me stepping out that she was a terrible wife and she would change. Well she changed long enough to get me back home.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

jarhed said:


> She says she was taken advantage of by a guy in college. He acted like he liked her - seduced her and then never called her. NOT DATE RAPE - he was just a jerk. She claims this scarred her. The fact is she was very unexperienced sexually when I met her. No abuse in the household.


Oh, please. This happens a million times per weekend at colleges all over the country.

That's not why she treats you like crap.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> And yes you had the affair with a third person, not her. What ever she is you are not better than her by your actions.



Sweetnsour: It isn't about me being better than her. I know what I did was wrong, hands down.

It's about having a loving marriage - and I want it and got straight A's in counseling b/c I can change behavior and communicate.

She got D's in counseling b/c she hasn't changed a thing. Thank God the therapist saw through her crying, victim act.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

jarhed said:


> Maybe there are different degrees of CN?
> 
> From what I've read: CN will turn everyone against their spouse. Makes themselves look angelic. Will make their spouse cease to have a life of their own and destroy their friendships.
> This is not her: I have a ton of friends and a ton of hobbies. She never bashes me to anyone and she rarely bashes me to my face. She complains that I make her seem like an object and when I touch her it is always sexual.
> ...


I don't like to be on the side of a WS which is who you are, but if you clearly state that you are not happy or divorcing her, you will see that she will be on a mission to spread the word that you are a monster, to everyone.

Well you deserve it as mush as she does.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

jarhed said:


> Sweetnsour: It isn't about me being better than her. I know what I did was wrong, hands down.
> 
> It's about having a loving marriage - and I want it and got straight A's in counseling b/c I can change behavior and communicate.
> 
> She got D's in counseling b/c she hasn't changed a thing. Thank God the therapist saw through her crying, victim act.


VICTIM ACT,

Brother, she is getting more closer to Covert as I read. Brace yourslf.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> VICTIM ACT,
> 
> Brother, she is getting more closer to Covert as I read. Brace yourslf.


What is WS?? 

I see CN's as being vengeful and spiteful. She just seems selfish and self centered. Enlighten me. What am I missing in this armchair diagnosis!?


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

jarhed said:


> She says she was taken advantage of by a guy in college. He acted like he liked her - seduced her and then never called her. NOT DATE RAPE - he was just a jerk. She claims this scarred her. The fact is she was very unexperienced sexually when I met her. No abuse in the household.
> 
> I stopped the therapy b/c she wasn't doing her part of the homework. I swear and I've told her this in front a therapist: She wanted me back in the house b/c I am a great dad, provider and protector. Meal ticket. Whatever. She admitted when she caught me stepping out that she was a terrible wife and she would change. Well she changed long enough to get me back home.


Please......., any covert girl, forteen and above starst testing the waters and then claim their innocence. I know my wife and some of her xboyfriends. I trust more to the boyfriends then my wife.

Its her story, you may buy it or not.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

jarhed said:


> What is WS??
> 
> I see CN's as being vengeful and spiteful. She just seems selfish and self centered. Enlighten me. What am I missing in this armchair diagnosis!?


WS is wayward souppose, which is you.

Mine is definetely an armchair diagnosis. I hope I am wrong,


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> WS is wayward souppose, which is you.
> 
> Mine is definetely an armchair diagnosis. I hope I am wrong,


I don't see how I can be a WS. Reading the definition that is someone that is a deviant that *****s around. 

I had one relationship after banging my head against a wall with my wife who denied me. So, I stepped out after a decade of clearly telling her I was not happy. It fell on deaf ears. Was what I did right? NO. Am I a WS in the present tense. NO

I'm not wayward now and have demonstrated my commitment and continue to demonstrate it daily.

SOOooooo. I confronted her today about a lie I caught her in yesterday. When confronted she continued to lie. She said she was going to get my son a Christmas gift and went to the Botox Dr. WTF? Well, this touched off a soliloquy of me telling her that I thought she was CN. I went down the list of lack of empathy for me, self centered actions on her behalf, taking money (when she had access), running up credit cards and lying about it, only things that are about her rank high, etc. 

She says she is going to go to a counselor - which I doubt. My prediction is that she will come home today, ask me to sit on the patio and have a drink. She will apologize and offer up sex. She will kiss ass for a day or two and then revert back....

Ground Hog Day....:lol:


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

If your wife gives you duty sex you have to keep rejecting that until she learns how to meet your needs in the way you want them to be met.


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