# Belated Valentines Day fight



## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Hi:

My wife works in a small office with 2 other men (1 married, 1 single) & 7 other women (mix of married/single). All are roughly same age.

End of January, she comes home and tells me about a Valentine's day thing they have decided to do where they exchange Valentines Day gifts (kinda like Secret Santa only not so secret because she saw a list of who has whom as recipients) as a sort of "team building thing". I express my opinion on the matter. Basically "What an odd way to team-build ... giving romanticly themed gifts to people you work with." 

"Besides, I've always felt that Valentines Day is for lovers/husbands/wives/boyfriend/girlfriend and not just any old person ... sorta dilutes what you might give your S.O. and what he gives you"

Then I find out that she has gotten the only single man on the list (newly hired (different) department head)

I reiterate that I feel the whole idea is odd and could just become weird (which just happened with the other married man and his wife and intended recipient of HIS gift.)
... AND ... I wasn't comfortable with her out shopping for a Valentines Day gift for another man, work or not.

We discussed this .. she said she saw my point and although didn't want to appear a wet blanket at work with backing out of the whole thing, which I understood. I suggested a compromise of involving me in the purchasing so that I didn't feel like I was excluded. She said sure or she could just exchange her recipient with someone else as there was still lots of time. Asked me if that would make me feel better. It seemed the best solution, so I agreed and thanked her for working on this with me.

4 days before VD I get a text from her saying that she had just gotten chocolates from a female co-worker. This prompted me to ask what she ended up doing about the situation we talked about. She said that she went ahead and got him gift(s) as she planned.

Argument that followed had her denying all knowledge of anything being an issue and saying "Why can't we have a normal relationship like others at work." Hmmmm. When I asked her for examples she cited the other man in her office and his wife who, turns out, was none to pleased about her hubby exchanging VD gifts with other women either so she inserted herself into the situation and went and bought the gift, making sure it was something appropriate to her comfort level. I was denied this opportunity and instead presented with a "solution" that was then not acted upon.

I am pissed. She refuses to discuss it, except to blame me for making such a big deal and just wants to just go back to wedded bliss land with no further communication about it. Obviously things are still a bit chilly as I think that is nonsense.

Of course it's no longer about VD or perceived jealousy or anything except how do you trust someone who pretends to have your interests in mind but shows that they don't.

Mark


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

What do you want from this? Do you want to be soothed, or an apology, or some form of assurance this guy means nothing? What's the end result you'd like to see from this conflict?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

It doesn't seem possible to me that this event was a required thing at work, but rather a "let's try it" type thing. 

I think this goes away easily if you just tell her that you are going to let it go because it seems silly to keep bringing it up, but request she not participate next year if it happens again because it made you feel uncomfortable.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> What do you want from this? Do you want to be soothed, or an apology, or some form of assurance this guy means nothing? What's the end result you'd like to see from this conflict?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> What do you want from this? Do you want to be soothed, or an apology, or some form of assurance this guy means nothing? What's the end result you'd like to see from this conflict?


Hmmm. Not about the guy. Much more about the erosion of trust that comes with saying one and then doing the opposite. If I hadn't asked about it it would have never been mentioned again. Why have any form of discussion at all if all I get is what she thinks I want to hear then just go ahead and dowhat she wants anyway?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

If you are having a huge fight over such a small issue, then maybe you need to step back and figure out your priorities. 

I'm not trying to be judgmental, but if this is the most serious problem in your marriage, then the rest of your life must be pretty darned perfect.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

EDIT: ok I reread your post and I misunderstood part of it. I get why you were a little upset about this. She pretended to agree with what you wanted just to appease you and then did something else.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

markster said:


> Hmmm. Not about the guy. Much more about the erosion of trust that comes with saying one and then doing the opposite. If I hadn't asked about it it would have never been mentioned again. Why have any form of discussion at all if all I get is what she thinks I want to hear then just go ahead and dowhat she wants anyway?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get it.It could have been about anything."Say what you mean and mean what you say". Works for me anyway.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I hear you say your concern/hurt/fear is that her actions did not match her words.

The issue is not the V-day gift exchange situation itself (that is merely an example at this point)

The issue is that you expressed your feelings regarding a situation. She verbally agreed to consider your feelings, but her actions were incongruent with her words.

Now you feel you were not considered in her decision-making in the situation.

If your wife is open to this, ask her to mirror you. You tell her how you feel. As your telling her, she is repeating back to you what you are saying. 

For example:

You say "Honey- I was hurt by your decision to purchase a V-day gift alone"

She should reply "You were hurt that I chose to buy a V-day gift by myself"

and so on, until you've been able to express your feelings to her and she has sufficiently rephrased it so the meaning hasn't been lost in the delivery.
This works wonders for both my husband and I. If I am having difficult time seeing his point of view, this practice helps me see outside of myself and get into his perspective.

Just a suggestion.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

cons said:


> I hear you say your concern/hurt/fear is that her actions did not match her words.
> 
> The issue is not the V-day gift exchange situation itself (that is merely an example at this point)
> 
> ...


This is very good advice, thank you. It does assume that she is willing to work on communication skills. She is not, told me again this morning that communication was a stupid waste of time and mocked me for wanting to improve it, which is common-place. She is a head in the sand girl and I am very skittish about having any heart to heart conversation with her. She'll just go and "remember" it a different way down the road anyway. 

But again, very good advice, I will consider it and thank you for your thoughtful response.

Mark


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

TBT said:


> I get it.It could have been about anything."Say what you mean and mean what you say". Works for me anyway.


Exactly. "Say what you mean and mean what you say" is what I live by vs. her "What I say is what I mean ... for now... until I change my mind and fail to mention that I have done so"

Thanks for your feedback.

Mark


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## UsernameHere (Sep 26, 2013)

What type of gifts did she end up buying? I would be more concerned about the work colleague reading more into things depending on what he received. I wouldn't feel comfortable if my wife's place of work decided to do this type of thing, it does seem odd.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

markster said:


> This is very good advice, thank you. It does assume that she is willing to work on communication skills. She is not, told me again this morning that communication was a stupid waste of time and mocked me for wanting to improve it, which is common-place. She is a head in the sand girl and I am very skittish about having any heart to heart conversation with her. She'll just go and "remember" it a different way down the road anyway.
> 
> But again, very good advice, I will consider it and thank you for your thoughtful response.
> 
> Mark


Hmm, little things that portend big problems. She sounds very immature. How old are you guys?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

markster said:


> This is very good advice, thank you. It does assume that she is willing to work on communication skills. She is not, told me again this morning that communication was a stupid waste of time and mocked me for wanting to improve it, which is common-place. She is a head in the sand girl and I am very skittish about having any heart to heart conversation with her. She'll just go and "remember" it a different way down the road anyway.
> 
> But again, very good advice, I will consider it and thank you for your thoughtful response.
> 
> Mark


 If she has her head in the sand, then pull it out, sit her down and tell her that communication is important in a marriage and what she did is her not listening to your concerns.

She sound like the type of person whose going to do what she wants and it's too bad if you don't like it. Better have a heart to heart with her and this time make her listen because down the road, it could lead to more situations that lead to another fight.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

UsernameHere said:


> What type of gifts did she end up buying? I would be more concerned about the work colleague reading more into things depending on what he received. I wouldn't feel comfortable if my wife's place of work decided to do this type of thing, it does seem odd.


Yes, and this was one of my concerns as well which I stated calmly and clearly to her. To me it sends an odd message of mixing business with pleasure while in the workplace as well as the concern that exchanging gifts also with levels of management in a position of power over you is asking for misinterpretation. Add now that they are Valentines Day gifts and am being told who to give one to. 

Apparently everyone had a sheet where they put on their favourite things, interests, etc. As far as I can tell she got him his favourite hard candies and chocolates from a specialty store near her work, and a few small other things and maybe a card, but I have no idea what else. She wasn't forthcoming on that or anything else surrounding it when asked in the beginning or in the end.

Of course I am walking the tightrope between voicing my opinions and values (boundaries) and not wanting her to feel I am controlling, but rather letting her reach her own conclusions while at the same time letting her know how I feel clearly.

Thanks 
Mark


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

John Lee said:


> Hmm, little things that portend big problems. She sounds very immature. How old are you guys?


Yes, agreed on the small problems turned into big. We are 49 & 50.

M


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

There is nothing "normal" about a relationship in which one person lies to the other or fails to respect the other's feelings, so don't let her guilt you into thinking that.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

markster said:


> Yes, and this was one of my concerns as well which I stated calmly and clearly to her. To me it sends an odd message of mixing business with pleasure while in the workplace as well as the concern that exchanging gifts also with levels of management in a position of power over you is asking for misinterpretation. Add now that they are Valentines Day gifts and am being told who to give one to.
> 
> Apparently everyone had a sheet where they put on their favourite things, interests, etc. As far as I can tell she got him his favourite hard candies and chocolates from a specialty store near her work, and a few small other things and maybe a card, but I have no idea what else. She wasn't forthcoming on that or anything else surrounding it when asked in the beginning or in the end.
> 
> ...


This is going to seem like an extreme over-reaction to some people, but I would start the 180 to mentally prepare myself to move on. If she notices you can explain to her that her attitude about you and the lack of communication and consideration for your feelings is a sign that the marriage is doomed. If that doesn't get her into MC then go ahead and move on. Extreme? Maybe at this point, but if her attitude does not change I guarantee that she will cheat on you.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> This is going to seem like an extreme over-reaction to some people, but I would start the 180 to mentally prepare myself to move on. If she notices you can explain to her that her attitude about you and the lack of communication and consideration for your feelings is a sign that the marriage is doomed. If that doesn't get her into MC then go ahead and move on. Extreme? Maybe at this point, but if her attitude does not change I guarantee that she will cheat on you.


This ^^^ is something to consider imo.
It's all about respect and tat is lacking.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> This is going to seem like an extreme over-reaction to some people, but I would start the 180 to mentally prepare myself to move on. If she notices you can explain to her that her attitude about you and the lack of communication and consideration for your feelings is a sign that the marriage is doomed. If that doesn't get her into MC then go ahead and move on. Extreme? Maybe at this point, but if her attitude does not change I guarantee that she will cheat on you.


I'm with a lot of this.

I would just start doing my own thing. Let her plan something very important, like a date night, and then THAT night, at the last minute, tell her. Oh sorry, I have other plans.

"Communication isn't important you said so I figured I didn't need to tell you."

"You showed me that it's okay to agree to something between us and then change your mind and not tell the other person. So that's what I did."

She'll get huffy and that's where you need to remain calm. Just explain. "You created this pattern of behavior and it was 100% okay as long as YOU were doing it to me. It sucks when it's done in reverse...doesn't it?" (she won't answer, you need to force an answer by continually asking the same question as she's trying to go off on tangents).

You can then explain that THIS isn't the type of marriage you want. You want one where communication is important and where both parties are considerate of the other's feelings.


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## UsernameHere (Sep 26, 2013)

The red flag for me in those "gifts" would be the card. We all know that VD cards are extremely sentimental, and as I eluded to previously the danger is the work colleague reading more into things than intended. If a card was exchanged, even if your wife light heartedly signed it, there is still a chance the work colleague could be led to think he may be in with a chance. 

I really don't understand the reasons her work forced this, especially with another colleagues wife being upset with this.

I'm concerned with your wife's lack of transparency about what she bought (other than the candies) I get the feeling from your post she is hiding more.

Look for signs things don't escalate with this work colleague.


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## damagedgoods1 (Nov 8, 2013)

Is there something else going on here? 

You posted on Jan 28 2013, "...she had already spent months spinning a very elaborate and plausible accounting of the events..." You also mentioned previously that she betrayed you.

Has she shown or proven her trustworthiness since your posts in 2012/2013 up until this point?

IMO, this situation just doesn't add up. (I'm not saying I don't believe you.) 

-Why didn't she just lie and say that she did what you agreed to in the first place? 

-Why did she text you to say she got chocolates from a female co-worker? Why not just eat the chocolates herself and not mention it to you? 

-What did she buy this male co-worker?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

markster said:


> Exactly. "Say what you mean and mean what you say" is what I live by vs. her "What I say is what I mean ... for now... until I change my mind and fail to mention that I have done so"
> 
> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> Mark


Is this a new personality trait or the way she has always been? I empathize, I wouldn't be able to take that either. When two people agree to something and one person decides to change it then it's disrespectful.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Is this a new personality trait or the way she has always been? I empathize, I wouldn't be able to take that either. When two people agree to something and one person decides to change it then it's disrespectful.


Not a new personality trait but one that's lain dormant for some time. No clue what's brought it on other than that I have (respectfully) been asking more questions about what her adult children's long-term plans were for leaving the nest. 

M


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Is this a new personality trait or the way she has always been? I empathize, I wouldn't be able to take that either. When two people agree to something and one person decides to change it then it's disrespectful.



Well, it happens frequently when one partner makes (what is perceived as) an unreasonable demand, and so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight, even though they have no intention of actually following through. It's justified in their mind because they feel the demand was unreasonable to start with. 

BTW, everyone is guilty of this at some point. To start the 180 or call a divorce attorney is a wild overreaction that will only do more harm than good.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Is it just me? I cannot imagine inserting Valentine's Day into the workplace. Seems as inappropriate as couples massages at a company offsite.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> *This is going to seem like an extreme over-reaction to some people,* but I would start the 180 to mentally prepare myself to move on. If she notices you can explain to her that her attitude about you and the lack of communication and consideration for your feelings is a sign that the marriage is doomed. If that doesn't get her into MC then go ahead and move on. Extreme? Maybe at this point, but if her attitude does not change I guarantee that she will cheat on you.





Theseus said:


> Well, it happens frequently when one partner makes (what is perceived as) an unreasonable demand, and so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight, even though they have no intention of actually following through. It's justified in their mind because they feel the demand was unreasonable to start with.
> 
> BTW, everyone is guilty of this at some point. *To start the 180 or call a divorce attorney is a wild overreaction that will only do more harm than good.*


There it is!


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

markster said:


> Not a new personality trait but one that's lain dormant for some time. No clue what's brought it on other than that I have (respectfully) been asking more questions about what her adult children's long-term plans were for leaving the nest.
> 
> M


How old are the adult children that haven't launched yet? Do you think you're going to have to launch them?


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

What a weird thing to celebrate at work, I wonder whose idea this was.
Have there been other off the wall occurrences at your wife's job?
Did they do a Secret Santa at Christmas too?
If not, why now & why V-Day?

I'm sorry that your wife seems to think it's more important to participate in a work activity that makes you uncomfortable than it was to tell her co-workers she wasn't going to be a part of the festivities. 
I've never understood why people get so caught up with people at work & I don't just mean with the opposite sex.
I've always kept my work & personal life separate, I work with these people, I don't want to be friends with them too.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Theseus said:


> If you are having a huge fight over such a small issue, then maybe you need to step back and figure out your priorities.
> 
> I'm not trying to be judgmental, but if this is the most serious problem in your marriage, then the rest of your life must be pretty darned perfect.


Oh look, it's Anon Pink and the Cuckold riding in like cavalry to admonish the husband for daring to be upset that his wife is buying VALENTINE'S DAY presents for some single man she works with.

Who'dve thunk it....


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Oh look, it's Anon Pink and the Cuckold riding in like cavalry to admonish the husband for daring to be upset that his wife is buying VALENTINE'S DAY presents for some single man she works with.


1. I "admonished" him for starting a huge fight over an office gift exchange. 

2. Calling me a "cuckold" is ludicrous since my wife has never been with anyone else. Moreover, name-calling and personal attacks don't belong on this forum.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Valentine's Day is for lovers or for wanna-be lovers.
Either the folks in her office don't have their heads screwed on straight, or ... it wasn't an office thing ... it was personal with a cover story.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Markster, having read your entire thread, my view is that this is more about what is to come - you both sound young with potentially a long marriage ahead.

As others have already said, you both need to resolve the issue of communication and in particular when it pertains to something that one of you sees as important but the other does not. I sense that you take this more seriously than she does.

I would be upset if I was paid "lip service" in agreeing with me and then going and doing what she felt like. Sort of like "fobbing me off".

Catch this early so that it does not become a problem later on.

And this Valentines Day gift thing sounds like they don't have enough work to do where she works!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't have much opinion on the subject itself, however I'm blown away by the VD gift exchange in a place of work. There seems to be a few of these things blowing around TAM lately (ie. odd choices of extra-curricular activities in the workplace under the guise of "team building".

Haven't we learned enough over the last 30-40 years to simply avoid anything related to sex, love, relationships etc. in the workplace? VD day gift exchanges, work escapes to adult resorts, couples massages with co-workers, trips to Cleveland that involve bar hopping, Las Vegas conventions, etc etc etc.

It's weird. I'm no prude, but if I worked in an office, and this was one of the team building exercises that was proposed, I'd quietly decline participating, married or not. Christmas is one thing, it's the season to give, be thankful, etc. and the gifts and cards aren't filled with hearts and the word "love", nor can it be taken the wrong way.

I mean, 40 years ago, all the secretaries would receive flowers or chocolate from their bosses on Valentine's Day. Try that now, and it's practically sexual harassment.

And furthermore, as stupid and manufactured a "holiday" as it is, VD is for couples, not co-workers.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Well, it happens frequently when one partner makes (what is perceived as) an unreasonable demand, and so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight, even though they have no intention of actually following through. It's justified in their mind because they feel the demand was unreasonable to start with.
> 
> BTW, everyone is guilty of this at some point. To start the 180 or call a divorce attorney is a wild overreaction that will only do more harm than good.


Yes, I agree Theseus. No, no plans on starting the 180 or calling divorce attorneys, only because I see no point in inflaming the situation. 

I know what you're saying regarding perceptions of demands and agreeing to keep the peace, etc. . Just to clarify, from my perspective, it certainly wasn't a demand that I made, it was a feeling I expressed and a discussion as to what compromise could be reached to have me feeling better about the whole thing. Telling her to drop out of the whole thing would have been a demand, and I made no such demand. She offered a solution after several were discussed. I was under the impression we were making advances in our relationship because she seemed genuinely interested in reaching a compromise. A win-win. 

I have no misgivings about what is justified in her mind. It's all justified to her which has some readers expressing concern to me that this is risky behavior that I need to get in front of. I agree.

She wants us all lovely-dovey again, like, yesterday. That's gonna take some time. Trust has to be restored. It's not about holding her down until she says "Uncle", it's about Why am I going to engage in anything deeper than the most basic of conversations with someone who 1. Thinks that communication is a waste of time. 2. Says one thing and does another. 3. Not only refuses to take any responsibility for the ensuing fallout, but blames me for the whole problem in the first place.

Someone asked me what I want from this. Mostly to vent, but I got some good feedback and perspectives from others which I appreciate.

What do I want from her ? I have no expectations. If trust is eventually restored, great. If not, at least I have no expectations.

M


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

syhoybenden said:


> Valentine's Day is for lovers or for wanna-be lovers.
> Either the folks in her office don't have their heads screwed on straight, or ... it wasn't an office thing ... it was personal with a cover story.


I believe the correct answer to be "the folks in her office don't have their heads screwed on straight".

M


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

markster said:


> mocked me


This is the problem in your marriage, not what she did.

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Theseus said:


> Well, it happens frequently when one partner makes (what is perceived as) an unreasonable demand, and so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight, even though they have no intention of actually following through. It's justified in their mind because they feel the demand was unreasonable to start with.
> 
> *BTW, everyone is guilty of this at some point.* To start the 180 or call a divorce attorney is a wild overreaction that will only do more harm than good.


Umm really? I haven't been. If I agree to something then I agree to it. If I didn't agree with it then I would say so and would certainly never go behind my SO's back. Sorry that's lying and deception. That would bother me 10x more than my SO buying a gift for a guy at a work function


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> How old are the adult children that haven't launched yet? Do you think you're going to have to launch them?


They are 19 & 24. Momma doesn't want them to launch, so she will fight me on every aspect of that and always has. Eldest has had a good job for almost 5 years and pays room & board (nothing compared to what it would cost him to live on his own). Youngest talking about college. That's fine, I don't begrudge offering him a leg up in life by living at home, but talk needs to turn into action pretty soon.

M


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Please don't let your kid live at home unless he is (1) working full time or (2) going to school full time. You do them NO favors by allowing anything else.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Sometimes a man has to stand up for things on principle even if it seems silly to some.

I think this is one of those things that you're right about standing up for. Yes choose your battles but agreeing to do one thing and then not following through, especially about buying a gift for another man and then telling you your relationship is not normal...I wouldnt let her get away with that BS.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Some companies... Whats next. V Day lingerie buying team excercise? I know the Hedo 3 swinger convention. I know I know a life drawing class each Monday where each employee is the model until we run thru them all. What is wrong with some of these companies?


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Read your other thread...

#shakes head sadly.

There is a reason he has trust issues.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

weightlifter said:


> Some companies... Whats next. V Day lingerie buying team excercise? I know the Hedo 3 swinger convention. I know I know a life drawing class each Monday where each employee is the model until we run thru them all. What is wrong with some of these companies?


I vote for BJ tuesdays.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

weightlifter said:


> Read your other thread...
> 
> #shakes head sadly.
> 
> There is a reason he has trust issues.


Ah, so she has FOO sex issues and she's cheated. You have your hands full.

Please read the book I recommended. asap!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't see exchanging V-day presents at work any different than my kids having to do it at school. It's not romantic, it's just fun. I would be annoyed that it was a huge deal at home but I would respect it and accommodate. 
Why wasn't it brought up again until 4 days before V-day? Did she maybe think it wasn't that big of a deal and it was just forgotten about or did she understand how important it was to you? Using words like "that's odd" wouldn't tell me how much of a big deal it was but she should have honoured what you agreed to anyway.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

sinnister said:


> I vote for BJ tuesdays.


:rofl: Each employee can take turns hosting a party at their home.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

EDIT: sorry, I think I was mixing up details from another thread


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

What? She's cheated in the past? Awwww helllll naww!


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

According to your other thread she has already cheated on you. You've only been together approx 5 years at this point (?) and you are living with her bio kids, and you are about 50.

You should have got out of this when you posted you first thread in 2012. That is what everyone was suggesting. Now here you are back again. 

You need to move on. This one is broken. Still a lot of years left for you to enjoy life with someone else or even by yourself.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't see exchanging V-day presents at work any different than my kids having to do it at school. It's not romantic, it's just fun. I would be annoyed that it was a huge deal at home but I would respect it and accommodate.
> Why wasn't it brought up again until 4 days before V-day? Did she maybe think it wasn't that big of a deal and it was just forgotten about or did she understand how important it was to you? Using words like "that's odd" wouldn't tell me how much of a big deal it was but she should have honored what you agreed to anyway.


Why wasn't it brought up until four days before? I was treating her like an adult and not harping about it or "checking in on her" to see if she'd honored her words. I trusted that she had until she informed me otherwise, four days before Valentines Day which was when gifts were exchanged .. something else that was news to me until it happened. She brought it up indirectly by mentioning to me via text that a coworker of hers was commenting on the chocolates newly arrived on my wife's desk. This is when I asked her what had gone down with her and her intended recipient and she told me that she had proceeded as originally planned.

She absolutely knew it was important to me ... "That's odd.." was not the only conversation we had on the subject. and no, was not just "forgotten" by her. She knew ... no doubt.

M


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She knew, she's just a strong personality and has learned over the years that she can walk on you. So she does.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

markster said:


> Why wasn't it brought up until four days before? I was treating her like an adult and not harping about it or "checking in on her" to see if she'd honored her words.
> M


I understand that. Could this have been a conscience thing (testing to see if she would follow through with it) or is it just a natural thing (didn't think she wouldn't follow through so you didn't bother bring it up again)?
I think if it was a big deal to me I would bring it up as "Hey, were you able to switch your recipient or do I need to go find a gift for single guy?" but I also understand and agree with feeling like you shouldn't need to.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Well, it happens frequently when one partner makes (what is perceived as) an unreasonable demand, and so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight, even though they have no intention of actually following through. It's justified in their mind because they feel the demand was unreasonable to start with.
> 
> BTW, everyone is guilty of this at some point. To start the 180 or call a divorce attorney is a wild overreaction that will only do more harm than good.


The technical term for this is 'lying'.

And you just stated that it is perfectly okay for his wife to lie to him.

And in a prior post, you said it is wrong for him to be upset that she feels that it is okay to lie to him.

I am not an absolutist. People lie. However when it comes to a) romantic gifts for other men b) hiding things c) breaking one's word after d) the husband clearly and reasonably laid out his concerns and she AGREED that she would do X to ameliorate these concerns, well, she took a very little thing and made it much larger.

Now it is blatant disrespect on many levels.

180? No. Divorce? No. Righteously upset? Yeah.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

barbados said:


> According to your other thread she has already cheated on you. You've only been together approx 5 years at this point (?) and you are living with her bio kids, and you are about 50.
> 
> You should have got out of this when you posted you first thread in 2012. That is what everyone was suggesting. Now here you are back again.
> 
> You need to move on. This one is broken. Still a lot of years left for you to enjoy life with someone else or even by yourself.





barbados said:


> According to your other thread she has already cheated on you. You've only been together approx 5 years at this point (?) and you are living with her bio kids, and you are about 50.
> 
> You should have got out of this when you posted you first thread in 2012. That is what everyone was suggesting. Now here you are back again.
> 
> You need to move on. This one is broken. Still a lot of years left for you to enjoy life with someone else or even by yourself.


So you have spoken Barbados? I am getting largely useful feedback from people as to if I am off base, or how to handle this. Some taken with a grain of salt. Some taken to heart.

I get the impression that you'd like me to not post any more because you and others spoke in 2012 and I did not heed your advice to divorce her pronto at the time, so I deserve what I get and I'm to quit whining about it.

Being able to read peoples past posts may be a useful feature on this site to some, but I like to view peoples questions and feedback as they are presented. Their history is not relevant to me. 

Others seem to utilize the "read other posts" feature as a way to say "See, I told you so. Ya should have done what I said before to do and ya didn't and your back moaning again, so it's your own fault and you deserve what you get..."

... which is unfortunate. Probably makes a lot of people think twice about posting anything on here at all.

If my original question and subsequent replies were about her cheating, Barbados, then you might have had a point, but you'll note that at no point do I indicate that I think she is or is considering cheating.

Mark


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

markster said:


> So you have spoken Barbados? I am getting largely useful feedback from people as to if I am off base, or how to handle this. Some taken with a grain of salt. Some taken to heart.
> 
> I get the impression that you'd like me to not post any more because you and others spoke in 2012 and I did not heed your advice to divorce her pronto at the time, so I deserve what I get and I'm to quit whining about it.
> 
> ...


Get this book today
The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's not romantic, it's just fun.


I don't think OP is finding this situation fun.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

markster said:


> Being able to read peoples past posts may be a useful feature on this site to some, but I like to view peoples questions and feedback as they are presented. Their history is not relevant to me.


History is relevant to people trying to give you good advice.

I was one of your very first replies and I suggested that you basically let this one go, and make sure your wife understands it bugged you so it won't happen again. In a vacuum, I think that's good advice.

By page 4, I'm thinking that your wife is basically counting on you to let this go, she understands completely what she's doing. So in the context of her history, letting it go is horrible advice.

At least, IMO.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

markster said:


> If my original question and subsequent replies were about her cheating, Barbados, then you might have had a point, but you'll note that at no point do I indicate that I think she is or is considering cheating.
> 
> Mark


You don't think she's cheating, but she's definitely lying.

Yes it's a big deal. You'd be a fool to not be upset about this. Your previous post about your wife is relevant....if this was a one-off she did, then might be more likely to just brush it off as one of those things in bad judgement. But considering that she has betrayed you in the past, the LAST THING she should be doing is lying to you, or doing something you've made clear you are not comfortable with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

markster said:


> Their history is not relevant to me.


That is how people give bad, wrong, or even harmful advice. 

People don't want you to ditch her, I'd guess, so much as for you to do what you needed to do to become a stronger leader of your marriage. Because it sounds like you are STILL dealing with a strong woman who ignores your feelings and does what she wants. And guess why strong women do that? Because the men in their lives are NOT being strong enough.

If you took nothing away from the advice two years ago, it should have been that. And here you are, again, having your wife manhandle you and all you can do about it is say 'gee, I don't like that.' If you even say that much. 

What _have _you done in the past two years about changing the dynamics in your relationship?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Acorn said:


> History is relevant to people trying to give you good advice.
> 
> I was one of your very first replies and I suggested that you basically let this one go, and make sure your wife understands it bugged you so it won't happen again. In a vacuum, I think that's good advice.
> 
> ...



I agree. History is important and I think should be for you. In situation that was provided if it were me I would have explained my displeasure to her about the lying and deception. Then tell her I expected it to never happen again. 

Now with the history of her cheating she is now still at least lying. I wouldn't say anything I would just go talk to a lawyer. IMO she doesn't respect you and will likely cheat again since she seems so comfortable with deception. 

Not picking at you. I have lots of empathy as I was also a husband cheated on. But I can tell you this it's unlikely she will change her behavior and certainly won't unless you take a solid stand


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree. History is important and I think should be for you. In situation that was provided if it were me I would have explained my displeasure to her about the lying and deception. Then tell her I expected it to never happen again.
> 
> Now with the history of her cheating she is now still at least lying. I wouldn't say anything I would just go talk to a lawyer. IMO she doesn't respect you and will likely cheat again since she seems so comfortable with deception.
> 
> Not picking at you. I have lots of empathy as I was also a husband cheated on. But I can tell you this it's unlikely she will change her behavior and certainly won't unless you take a solid stand


:iagree::iagree:
Mark you can't control her but you can control what you will or will not put up with.
The relationship dynamic has to change.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> Mark you can't control her but you can control what you will or will not put up with.
> The relationship dynamic has to change.


Thanks Tom & all. I agree completely. Cheers.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I guess he's gone. Oh well.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

turnera said:


> I guess he's gone. Oh well.


No, not gone. I thought it had run it's course, but am always open for more feedback.

Mark


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

These bloody irresponsible workplace bosses. "The Wimps of Wall Street". It's not enough for our SO's to be spending more time with the opposite sex at work - no, let's do something that is entirely inappropriate. The dingbat who thought up this one need a kick up the clacker. Wouldn't it be a fresh change if someone who calls themselves a leader in that joint had the balls to step in and put and end to this farce instead of letting the pressure to conform trickle down to the underlings. The fish rots from the head they say. Your wife should have bought something more neutral and feigned ignorance. She also needs to reconsider the meaning of the word relationship.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Your wife seems to have a history of lying to you, THAT is what I would address. She cheated on you and unless you were aware of it happening, she lied in her act of cheating. Since you two obviously stayed together after she cheated, did you two really Reconcile or did you Rug Sweep? I ask, because to me, the WS NEVER stops doing what they can to reassure their BS, including staying honest, no matter the situation. I think unless you go back & resolve what lead to her cheating, you two are in a holding pattern of issues.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Horizon said:


> These bloody irresponsible workplace bosses. "The Wimps of Wall Street". It's not enough for our SO's to be spending more time with the opposite sex at work - no, let's do something that is entirely inappropriate. The dingbat who thought up this one need a kick up the clacker. Wouldn't it be a fresh change if someone who calls themselves a leader in that joint had the balls to step in and put and end to this farce instead of letting the pressure to conform trickle down to the underlings. The fish rots from the head they say. Your wife should have bought something more neutral and feigned ignorance. She also needs to reconsider the meaning of the word relationship.


I'm sorry, I'm not buying this story. I'm not calling markster a troll, I'm not buying his wifes story that this was a company sanctioned event. I think she wanted to buy some guy a valentine and wanted to rub marksters nose in it in the process. I think she's laughing up her sleeve about it.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not buying this story. I'm not calling markster a troll, I'm not buying his wifes story that this was a company sanctioned event. I think she wanted to buy some guy a valentine and wanted to rub marksters nose in it in the process. I think she's laughing up her sleeve about it.


Mark to ease your mind I suggest you put a voice activated recorder in her car.
Maybe even a pen var for her purse.
Just a thought.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Have you ever talked to someone at her work, that you could ask about the company sponsored "cheat with a co-worker VD"? 

What is the company sponsoring next VD? Or has the company received lawsuits from the spouses about the event and decided to end the event?

Have you told your wife about your company and the ST. Patrick's day strip club team building exercise?

No spouses are allowed at the exercise, and it will be for an entire week in Hawaii! 

I hope you find a good line to draw in the sand so that she learns about boundaries in marriage.

Good luck at winning your company's next event.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

markster said:


> So you have spoken Barbados? I am getting largely useful feedback from people as to if I am off base, or how to handle this. Some taken with a grain of salt. Some taken to heart.
> 
> I get the impression that you'd like me to not post any more because you and others spoke in 2012 and I did not heed your advice to divorce her pronto at the time, so I deserve what I get and I'm to quit whining about it.
> 
> ...


Mark,

All I, or anyone here wants for you, or anyone else who comes here seeking advice and help is to get to a better place for themselves. We all define that differently.

You say that : " Their history is not relevant to me. ", but are we, as people trying to give our honest advice supposed to disregard what a poster has already told us of his/her situation ?

Mark, I gave you my honest opinion based on what you wrote in BOTH threads. Of course you can disregard everything I wrote. That is the point of a board like this. And no, I don't want you, or anybody else, to stop posting until they feel the need not to.

I'm not the enemy Mark, but if getting mad at me helps, then by all means feel free to to hate my guts.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

JCD said:


> And you just stated that it is perfectly okay for his wife to lie to him.


On the contrary, I said *NOTHING* of the sort.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Theseus said:


> On the contrary, I said *NOTHING* of the sort.







Theseus said:


> Well, it happens frequently when one partner makes (what is perceived as) *an unreasonable demand*, and *so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight, even though they have no intention of actually following through.* It's justified in their mind because they feel the demand was unreasonable to start with.
> 
> *BTW, everyone is guilty of this at some point*.


First bold is where you strongly imply what this person did was unreasonable i.e. you are wrong.

Second bold is the lie

Third post is where you provide emotional cover to the lie by saying everyone does it.


While I agree that some people are going from zero to divorce pretty damned quickly, what you did was minimize the offense.

In fact, IIRC 




Theseus said:


> If you are having a huge fight over such a small issue, then maybe you need to step back and figure out your priorities.
> 
> I'm not trying to be judgmental, but *if this is the most serious problem in your marriage, then the rest of your life must be pretty darned perfect.*


So...a woman buying a SECRET Valentines Day gift (could have been edible undies for all this guy knows or worse, an incredibly thoughtful gift) after hearing her hubby had an issue, pretending to respect his feelings and then lying and dismissing it is a tiny issue?

1) She told him

2) he had a problem

3) she figured out a solution which would make hubby feel better

4) she totally dissed her hubby by breaking their deal and buying a gift by herself

5) She hid this from hubby, not saying 'Oh...I got him an Outback Gift Certificate'

6) she REFUSES to tell him what she got, knowing he already had a problem with this


So her autonomy and the work place trump any issues for feelings her husband happens to have. I even don't mind that she might have been at the store just grabbed something. She should have said "I got Blake a gift card. Is that okay?" Issue solved with everyone's dignity and feelings intact. Not optimal for anyone, but certainly better than the 'I got him something...but I am not going to tell you what. HA HA HA."

Sorry but the 'I didn't tell you about it because you'd make a big deal over it' is really only exculpatory if she just does it BEFORE they had their talk, not after. I.E. If she heard about the VD gift, went and got it and Hubby found out later, I'd understand her hiding things a bit. It's done, move on...though she better darned well tell me the gift.

She knew his feelings and she is lying and hiding it. And you seem to be spinning it as 'nothing'. See bolded point in second quote.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't have anymore feedback that hasn't already been presented. Only support. You seem like a very smart man. Your happiness is in your hands.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

JCD said:


> First bold is where you strongly imply what this person did was unreasonable i.e. you are wrong.



*NO.*

I said, quote: _"one partner makes *(what is perceived as) an unreasonable demand*, and so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight_" 

I assume you understand English, so look up the meaning of "perceived". I am just saying that one person sees it as unreasonable. I didn't say whether I thought it was unreasonable or not. I didn't take sides here; I was only describing what I thought was the wife's point of view. I never said I agreed with that POV! 




> _Third post is where you provide emotional cover to the lie by saying everyone does it._


That's not "emotional cover". That's me admitting that I've done the same thing in the past at some point, and pretty much everyone else has too, whether they are honest enough to admit it or not. We are human. 

If you or others want to stand on your high horses, that's great if that works for you. That's not what I'm about.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Theseus,
Watch this sequence:

W: I am planning to do this 'gray zone' thing at work
H: I don't like that
W+H: Agree to a simple compromise of switching recipient
W: Totally ignores plan
H: Gets angry (totally healthy reaction)
W: Totally stone walls and denies they ever had an agreement

Marriages get fvcked up when one partner (in this case the W), pushes boundaries, agrees to be reigned in, then violates boundaries and lies about prior conversations and tries to play the victim AND the real victim BACKS DOWN. 

It's as corrosive as an acid bath. 



[/B]


Theseus said:


> If you are having a huge fight over such a small issue, then maybe you need to step back and figure out your priorities.
> 
> I'm not trying to be judgmental, but if this is the most serious problem in your marriage, then the rest of your life must be pretty darned perfect.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Markster,
Your fear of loss is driving your avoidance of real action. 

Her refusal to acknowledge your agreement is right out of the same playbook she will use if she starts another affair and you ask her questions about where she is, who she is with etc. 
This is called the deny, deny, deny play. 

And if your sex life is lame/to nil, then I imagine the big motivator to stay with you is financial. 





markster said:


> No, not gone. I thought it had run it's course, but am always open for more feedback.
> 
> Mark


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Markster,
> Your fear of loss is driving your avoidance of real action.
> 
> Her refusal to acknowledge your agreement is right out of the same playbook she will use *when* she starts another affair and you ask her questions about where she is, who she is with etc.
> ...


Fify


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Markster,
> Your fear of loss is driving your avoidance of real action.


Pretty much the whole story of your marriage.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This may have already been said & I missed it, but...get your agreement with your W in writing.

My H did to me what your W did for a number of years before I saw the pattern. When we were faced with (sometimes serious) issues that ideally required discussion and compromise, he would talk and compromise and then.....act later like the conversation never happened. He would say, "I don't remember that at all!" By this time, he had managed to do exactly what he wanted in the first place. There were a few times when this made a huge difference in my own life and I felt despondent (e.g., "Honey, if we agree to go ahead and have children, I will cut my travel way down." Of course, this turned into an increase in work travel.) 

Interestingly, I mentioned this once to my MIL & she told me that her H, my H's father, did exactly the same thing and this maddened her.

At one point, I started to write down any important decisions we had reached together. We initialed them and mirrored them to ensure as well as possible that we agreed on the interpretation and any conditions. The next time he tried to tell me that we had never agreed on something particular, I had his initials on the proof. To his credit, he admitted that we had an agreement and he would do his best to live up to it.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Theseus said:


> *NO.*
> 
> I said, quote: _"one partner makes *(what is perceived as) an unreasonable demand*, and so the other partner agrees to it just to keep the peace and avoid a fight_"
> 
> ...


Avoiding sides in reasonably black and white moral situation is a sort of cowardice. You _perceive_ it as a 'high horse'.

She lied

She deceived.

She is hiding things.

There is no moral ambiguity here. 



> I never said I agreed with that POV...


...but I also won't speak against it.


When you speak to him being calm and not doing any number of the rash things suggested here, I am with you.

Minimizing bad actions by not speaking against them is almost the same as condoning them. If, as you say, you have done this bad thing, great. You know what a crappy thing it is to do to a person, so help stop this behavior.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

JCD said:


> Avoiding sides in reasonably black and white moral situation is a sort of cowardice.


JCD, like the OP you are making mountains out of molehills. Simply trying to explain someone's POV is not "moral cowardice". 

Yes. the wife was wrong. And the OP is overreacting. Both of those things can be true at the same time.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Theseus said:


> JCD, like the OP you are making mountains out of molehills. Simply trying to explain someone's POV is not "moral cowardice".
> 
> Yes. the wife was wrong. And the OP is overreacting. Both of those things can be true at the same time.


From your tone (always a chancy thing on the internet) it sounded like you were minimizing her offense. I wasn't the only one who thought this, so bear that in mind as you are offered my apology.

But I can agree with that statement.

It may be a molehill, but the woman still hasn't finished digging. At the least, she should NOW tell him exactly what she got the ****** and show a receipt because SHE is the one purposefully hurting and creating doubt.

But I doubt she'll do it.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This may have already been said & I missed it, but...get your agreement with your W in writing.
> 
> My H did to me what your W did for a number of years before I saw the pattern. When we were faced with (sometimes serious) issues that ideally required discussion and compromise, he would talk and compromise and then.....act later like the conversation never happened. He would say, "I don't remember that at all!" By this time, he had managed to do exactly what he wanted in the first place. There were a few times when this made a huge difference in my own life and I felt despondent (e.g., "Honey, if we agree to go ahead and have children, I will cut my travel way down." Of course, this turned into an increase in work travel.)
> 
> ...



Thank you for this. It's a good idea. Am wondering if she will then begin agreeing to a lot less knowing she is going to be held to it by her own signed commitment. Time will tell, wish we'd adopted this policy a year ago.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Quick update and clarification - 

As I am to understand it, there was no card given. Initially she suggested that a card or note might be given, but she tells me long after the fact that that didn't happen. There was his favourite candy and chocolates given to him. Am I to assume it is upon hearing my objections in the beginning that a card was quietly dropped from the gift, or was it merely slid into the conversation as bait for me from the get-go? No idea.

Initially she told me that the whole thing was someone else's idea and she was just playing along to not be a killjoy, but turns out was her idea all along. Names were supposedly drawn at random so getting him was not her doing she says.

This would be what could be considered the molehill.

Had I known this information from the beginning, it might not have irked me (or others) as much as it did ... but again, my main issue as many have understood is that to tell someone that you understand their concerns (on any subject) and you will happily allay their concerns but then do nothing and keep it to yourself that you have done nothing until you are asked about it AFTER the fact ... is what pissed me off.

Of course it speaks to an erosion of trust and a strong indicator that honest communication - and actions congruent with words - in this relationship is as close to non-existent as could be - which will of course doom it for multiple reasons.

That would be the mountain in all of this.

M


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have a feeling, markster, that the molehill that you describe may well turn into another mountain in the comments that follow when people read that the V-Day gift exchange was her idea and that she happened to draw the name of the new, single guy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, when you said that she said she randomly drew his name - and HAPPENED TO KNOW his favorite candy?

Aw, HELL no!


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

markster said:


> Quick update and clarification -
> 
> As I am to understand it, there was no card given. Initially she suggested that a card or note might be given, but she tells me long after the fact that that didn't happen. *There was his favourite candy and chocolates given to him.* Am I to assume it is upon hearing my objections in the beginning that a card was quietly dropped from the gift, or was it merely slid into the conversation as bait for me from the get-go? No idea.
> 
> ...


I don't believe in coincidences, I would bet dollars to donuts there was more motivating your wife here than office camaraderie. I would want to know how she knows this guy's favorite candy. I can't even tell you my best friend's favorite candy, let alone some guy I work with. No, finding that kind of information out has a purpose that goes beyond getting your random drawn office mate a surprise gift. Does she put this much effort into doing things for you?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

If I recall correctly, he said that such information was POSTED by EVERYONE so the people involved could pick these things up.

So that particular coincidence is explained...if true.

Which is where the rabbithole comes in.

SHE told you it was corporate's idea...now it was HER idea. This is a lie.

SHE told you she picked his name at random

SHE told you she didn't give him a card after telling you she might get a card...but you got mad.

SHE told you they posted a list of everyone's favorite thing.

Do you see the common denominator?

She's already lied about a few things. Kept things hidden. Minimized things. She has taken it upon her self to ration whatever information you are getting.

Who knows if she's wandered into MISinforation, i.e. more lies.

Who knows how many of these other 'coincidences' are real or not?

That is the corrosive thing about when you start to lie or distort things. After that first lie, that first breech of trust, suddenly the liar is stuck saying 'trust me' when they've already burned that particular bonfire.

She might be telling you the God's honest truth about all of it...but she's already a liar and a deceiver. If you want the truth, go to her work and ask them how it worked.

But if you do that, YOU become the 'untrusting a-hole' when SHE is the liar.

Fair, huh!


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Outline it like this

You didn't like this gift exchange (and like it less since it's her idea)

She stated that she was interested in mollifying your doubts and she broke her word.

She lied to you about where this idea came from.

She stated that she was going to get a card...but now that you are mad, suddenly she didn't.

She willfully neglected to tell you about her retroactive and arbitrary decision to break the deal. While it may not have been a big deal to HER, it was decidedly a big deal to YOU...and she knew it or else why hide it?

And 'coincidently' she just happened to pick the single guy's name.

So her credibility on this is pretty much shot to hell.

Because she will come back at you with the 'you are just a jealous and controlling bastard'.

You need to establish that doubting someone's word when they are behaving in an untrustworthy fashion is NOT jealousy, it is legitimate. YOU have a legitimate grievance.

She won't want to hear that, but it is what it is.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

In high school/college, I would often "randomly" end up with the cheerleader or sorority gal as a partner (and sometimes eventual girlfriend) because I was the organizer of a lot of events.

I had the most uncanny luck, I guess.

Anyway, I'm not buying her story and I don't think you are over-reacting at all. She's got you trained to look at each individual lie/offense at a precisely prescribed pace so that each one is somehow remotely plausible... and by doing that she has you completely oblivious to the big picture.

If I ever ran a Valentine's Day thing at work and got paired up with the hot secretary, and knew her favorite fragrance, my girlfriend would have a fit. There is no way your wife doesn't know what she did there.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Wow, the plot thickens.


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

JCD said:


> If I recall correctly, he said that such information was POSTED by EVERYONE so the people involved could pick these things up.
> 
> So that particular coincidence is explained...if true.
> 
> ...


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## markster (Nov 20, 2012)

Acorn said:


> In high school/college, I would often "randomly" end up with the cheerleader or sorority gal as a partner (and sometimes eventual girlfriend) because I was the organizer of a lot of events.
> 
> I had the most uncanny luck, I guess.
> 
> ...


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