# Over Exposing an Affair



## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm going to avoid the other thread since it was stated that I was thread jacking. I felt I was simply sharing my opinion on the direction the conversation had taken. Regardless...
I can't stand the idea that other people feel it is their business to go telling other people in a marriage about a spouses affair. The idea that some think this is okay causes me physical pain. 
Example: I don't know the people across the street that well, see them sometimes, but don't even know their name. If I had evidence that the husband was having an affair, it would not be my place to talk to the wife about it. I don't know them, I don't know their story, I would be wrong to interfere. 
This is what I meant by only being able to say something if it was family or close friend. If I knew the person well enough and knew the relationship well enough, then I could feel it my responsibility to be involved. 
Even if it were a situation where the husband were cheating with my wife. I might talk to him, might even punch him in the face, but I wouldn't tell his wife. I don't know her feelings on it, what she knows and doesn't know, or doesn't want to know, because I don't know her. How she wants to handle the whole situation is up to her. 
At the same time, I would not want someone who I am not close to, telling me information about a potential affair. That is not the way I would want to hear about if I did not know. Significant information and events in life I want to hear about from people who I am close to and have a relationship with in life, not strangers or even people I have a poor relationship with. 
Some people on here might say, "just give me the information I don't care how I get it." If someone meaningful in my life were to die, I don't want to hear about that from just anyone. Important things like that are left up to the people in my life to inform me about. Whether it is a death, an affair, or any other painful life event.


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## Trojan John (Sep 30, 2011)

Ignorance is bliss. Pfffft.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Trojan John said:


> Ignorance is bliss. Pfffft.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My opinion and stance on this, has nothing to do with the idea of "ignorance is bliss"


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

We would all PREFER to hear bad news from a close friend or relative, but real life isn't like that.
If I hadn't been told about my Hs A from a stranger, I still wouldn't know the truth. Ignorance is not bliss. It is always better to know the truth. No matter where it comes from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

One of the reasons to expose is to put an end to the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, on the thrill of the forbidden. The harsh light of exposure can shut down an affair when nothing else will.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

You say we would prefer, yes there are times when things slip and you hear something from someone because they thought you already knew. That has happened to everyone at some point. But this topic specifically, I just don't think it is someone elses position to get involved with another persons marriage and impact it that way. People don't jump in and get involved in all of the other aspects of another couples marriage, why this one? You should either be someone who is involved in the marriage and talks to one or both of them already about details of the marriage, or you stay out of it.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> One of the reasons to expose is to put an end to the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, on the thrill of the forbidden. The harsh light of exposure can shut down an affair when nothing else will.


But who said that was the whole of societies place to make that happen?


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

gbrad said:


> But who said that was the whole of societies place to make that happen?


It is a great kindness to the betrayed spouse to tell them the truth. Many cannot believe that their spouse could do such a thing to them.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> It is a great kindness to the betrayed spouse to tell them the truth. Many cannot believe that their spouse could do such a thing to them.


If you are friends with the spouse you are telling then yes, it is "kindness" of sorts. 
But random people or a friend of a friend, those people don't just all of a sudden go talk to spouses about their marriages and the details of it. It is not my place as an outsider of that marriage, to determine what is right and wrong and good and bad for it.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> One of the reasons to expose is to put an end to the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, on the thrill of the forbidden. The harsh light of exposure can shut down an affair when nothing else will.


And this is exactly what it did!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> You say we would prefer, yes there are times when things slip and you hear something from someone because they thought you already knew. That has happened to everyone at some point. But this topic specifically, I just don't think it is someone elses position to get involved with another persons marriage and impact it that way. People don't jump in and get involved in all of the other aspects of another couples marriage, why this one? You should either be someone who is involved in the marriage and talks to one or both of them already about details of the marriage, or you stay out of it.


Not even the OWs husband? He didn't know me, didn't owe me anything!
I'm so glad he didn't keep it to himself!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Even if it were a situation where the husband were cheating with my wife. I might talk to him, might even punch him in the face, but I wouldn't tell his wife. I don't know her feelings on it, what she knows and doesn't know, or doesn't want to know, because I don't know her. How she wants to handle the whole situation is up to her.


I could not disagree with you more. 
You "might" talk to him? Please don't over react sir! You might talk to him?

I would absolutely expose to his wife at the earliest possible time.

As to others? Depends. A relative of a close friend I would most certainly talk to.

Continue on. We disagree on most of this stuff anyways so nothing new here.

I do what I think is right. YMMV. I need no ones permission to do so.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

daisygirl 41 said:


> Not even the OWs husband? He didn't know me, didn't owe me anything!
> I'm so glad he didn't keep it to himself!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad you were happy he did, but the reality is that he should have focused on his own marriage and whether or not it should continue.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> One of the reasons to expose is to put an end to the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, on the thrill of the forbidden. The harsh light of exposure can shut down an affair when nothing else will.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

In my opinion when it comes to exposing an affair..specificly when a spouses gets busted with a married AP...it really helps keep an eye on thing from both ends.

I mean I could keep an eye on my wife and the other betrayed wife could keep an eye on her waywards husband.

In addition it really helps end the affair when the wayward husband start to trow my wayward wife under the bus to save his own marriage.

When one exposes to the other betrayed spouse notes can be compared and a joint effert can be made to pull out as much truth as possible.

These are just four exambles why I thing exposure is a must. Exposure IMHO really bring the secret,taboo, and exciting affair into the light of day. 

What ever it takes to make the affair as inconvienent and uncomfortable to continue must be applied and exposure is one of many tactic that a betrayed spouse needs to take.

I've been here long enough to have seen what happens when exposure is not done. The poster comes backing kicking him/her self for not taking this route when d-day #2 or #3 happens.

If the guys my wife was screwing were married I would have exposed in a heart beat!


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> I could not disagree with you more.
> You "might" talk to him? Please don't over react sir! You might talk to him?
> 
> I would absolutely expose to his wife at the earliest possible time.
> ...


Oh my gosh. The insistence of this by everybody at the MB site is one of the reasons I left there. How anyone could believe this way, makes me hurt, physically my stomach clenches. 
A relative of a close friend? Really. 
If a close friend of mine told me about it, there is no way I would go talk to that persons spouse. That person trusted me with what the said, I am their friend, I need to keep that information to myself.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

gbrad said:


> I'm glad you were happy he did, but the reality is that he should have focused on his own marriage and whether or not it should continue.


You are focusing on the marriage now that a third party is in it.

I thinks thats why my FWW never went with married guys, she didn't want to be part of another marriage, her's was crap enough, she didn't to be part of two crappy marriages.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> You are focusing on the marriage now that a third party is in it.
> 
> I thinks thats why my FWW never went with married guys, she didn't want to be part of another marriage, her's was crap enough, she didn't to be part of two crappy marriages.


The person cheating with another married person is getting involved in that marriage yes, but the BS is not involved in that marriage.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I wouldn't have a problem exposing an affair to an acquaintance so long as the betrayed spouse didn't have a reputation for violence. 

By exposing it I give them the information that person needs to decide what to do with the marriage. If they decide to stay, that's their choice but at least the person knows the truth of their marriage. It's a safety issue too. The betrayed spouse can get tested for sexually transmitted diseases, which can be fatal in some cases.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

gbrad said:


> Oh my gosh. The insistence of this by everybody at the MB site is one of the reasons I left there. How anyone could believe this way, makes me hurt, physically my stomach clenches.
> A relative of a close friend? Really.
> If a close friend of mine told me about it, there is no way I would go talk to that persons spouse. That person trusted me with what the said, I am their friend, I need to keep that information to myself.


If a friend told me he was cheating on his wife, he wouldn't be a friend. I don't dig liers, and to have an affair you have to lie, other wise its not an affair but an open marriage.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm mostly with the OP on this one. 

I don't have a problem with the idea of someone informing all affected parties IF they're one of the affected parties. This includes a friend of a betrayed person. Having that kind of information and not being able to talk openly and genuinely is a legitimate reason to feel affected by another's affair. 

But when it has NO effect on me or mine, then "exposing" is nothing more than being a busybody. Everyone involved or affected is an adult who is capable of managing their lives as they see fit without my input. I have no reason to intrude on how they do it. The whole idea that it's being a good person *may* be valid for a few, but the vast majority of people will turn so quickly to denial that if you're NOT a good friend, you'll experience "shoot the messenger" syndrome.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> I'm glad you were happy he did, but the reality is that he should have focused on his own marriage and whether or not it should continue.


But you are so wrong 
I hope you never have to experience it to see how wrong you are.
So you think it would be better for me to never know that my H had an A and moved out to be with the OW? 
When the OWs H exposed the A to me and their work colleagues, it Killed the A dead in 3 weeks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Mrs. the-guy just asked what was up and I told here I was in a debate about exposure....her reply "make sure you wear enough sunscreed" LOL


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> If a friend told me he was cheating on his wife, he wouldn't be a friend. I don't dig liers, and to have an affair you have to lie, other wise its not an affair but an open marriage.


So if a friend of yours told you about an affair he/she had, you would stop being his/her friend? Wow, that is cold.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I wish to God someone had told me! The humiliation, being made a fool of and used, the years of rejection, loneliness, scorn, criticism, withdrawal from me and children while A went on all could have been avoided. What my children lost and how marriage was negatively modeled can never be replaced for them. So much of my pain after 20 months is still due to how long my H got away with his deception. But we are reconciling successfully and still my heart is torn because of " if only I had known sooner... "


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

daisygirl 41 said:


> But you are so wrong
> I hope you never have to experience it to see how wrong you are.
> So you think it would be better for me to never know that my H had an A and moved out to be with the OW?
> When the OWs H exposed the A to me and their work colleagues, it Killed the A dead in 3 weeks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know what should have happened as a result. I do think that some affairs are meant to happen for various reasons. Things happen in life, we have life altering events to help change us. Whether that is to change us an individual or as a couple, every situation could be different. But I don't think it is a strangers place to spread that type of information around.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> The person cheating with another married person is getting involved in that marriage yes, but the BS is not involved in that marriage.


But can't you see, we are! When my H had an A with a married women that made me, the BS, part of that marriage too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Brad, spend some time in the CWI section and look at threads were exposure was not done.

evidence from the hundreds of other threads there prove yout thinking to be inaccurate.

Again its your opinion and I respect that, but just go and check it out...its depressing but in the same breath it is educational to learn from others and what consistantly happen when exposure is not applied.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

allwillbewell said:


> I wish to God someone had told me! The humiliation, being made a fool of and used, the years of rejection, loneliness, scorn, criticism, withdrawal from me and children while A went on all could have been avoided. What my children lost and how marriage was negatively modeled can never be replaced for them. So much of my pain after 20 months is still due to how long my H got away with his deception. But we are reconciling successfully and still my heart is torn because of " if only I had known sooner... "


I agree with you and feel exactly the same way. A lot of the Pain comes from the 'not knowing'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

daisygirl 41 said:


> But can't you see, we are! When my H had an A with a married women that made me, the BS, part of that marriage too!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In that situation you worry about and deal with your own. You speak with your spouse to get things fixed. Let the other person deal with their own spouse. Maybe you are better off knowing and dealing with your spouse directly about the affair, but you don't know that is the case for the other spouse. Maybe the affair ends and it is better for them if it is not known. Most of you would say no to that idea, but its not your life and your marriage, so you shouldn't get to decide.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> I don't know what should have happened as a result. I do think that some affairs are meant to happen for various reasons. Things happen in life, we have life altering events to help change us. Whether that is to change us an individual or as a couple, every situation could be different. But I don't think it is a strangers place to spread that type of information around.


But the minute my H started and A with his wife, we all became part of it! We were all involved. Strangers or not.
Exposure works. Secrecy allows the A to grow and fester.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> Brad, spend some time in the CWI section and look at threads were exposure was not done.
> 
> evidence from the hundreds of other threads there prove yout thinking to be inaccurate.
> 
> Again its your opinion and I respect that, but just go and check it out...its depressing but in the same breath it is educational to learn from others and what consistantly happen when exposure is not applied.


Everyone is different. For myself, I really think I would rather not know. And friends of mine would know that and hopefully respect that. If I knew, fine, I could get past it and move on, things would be different and changes would be made, but regardless only people who are close to me should be involved in that portion of my life.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

gbrad said:


> So if a friend of yours told you about an affair he/she had, you would stop being his/her friend? Wow, that is cold.


LOL... 3 years ago I went trough some really tough sh1t with my old lady. Call me jaded brother but when it comes to cheating I am one cold mother phucker when I hear someone doing the betrayal.

I wouldn't care if it my best friend or a my brother (BTW my BF also sleep with my wife) confided in me I would make them regret for ever telling me.

A consequence they and I would have to face for there bad choice in betraying their spouse.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Let's do a bit of a reality check here...

- The vast majority of wronged spouses saw red flags and ignored them.
- The vast majority of wronged spouses don't trust their perceptions and wait for validation, which is a mistake on their part, not a bystander's.
- A bystander has no responsibility for another adult's well-being when they have no relationship to that person.
- A person affected by the affair stops is no longer a bystander and *does* have a responsibility to take steps to stop being affected.

I was a wronged spouse at one point, and I know how badly it crushed my spirit for a long time. I get it that it's painful. But to use that pain to justify making other people responsible is not reasonable, in my opinion.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

3 years ago I would have had the same mind set as you, I just have become some what of a scholor when it comes to infidelity.

With that I know what works and I know what doesn't.

Even at the cost of a close friend ship.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

daisygirl 41 said:


> But the minute my H started and A with his wife, we all became part of it! We were all involved. Strangers or not.
> Exposure works. Secrecy allows the A to grow and fester.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To me it is not about what works to kill the affair. Yes, I get the idea that exposure works for that. Of course that will help. I don't think more people should know though. If I found out my wife had an affair, I would want as few people as possible knowing about it. 
It is more about a right way of going about it. some things in life, affair and others, it isn't your place to discuss it with other people. 
If someone screws up at work and does something wrong, its not my place if I know about it to go report that and tell on them. I'm going to hope they take care of it, deal with it, and move on.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

gbrad said:


> To me it is not about what works to kill the affair. Yes, I get the idea that exposure works for that. Of course that will help. I don't think more people should know though. If I found out my wife had an affair, I would want as few people as possible knowing about it.
> It is more about a right way of going about it. some things in life, affair and others, it isn't your place to discuss it with other people.
> If someone screws up at work and does something wrong, its not my place if I know about it to go report that and tell on them. I'm going to hope they take care of it, deal with it, and move on.


Until their screw up at work starts affecting you, anyway.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> LOL... 3 years ago I went trough some really tough sh1t with my old lady. Call me jaded brother but when it comes to cheating I am one cold mother phucker when I hear someone doing the betrayal.
> 
> I wouldn't care if it my best friend or a my brother (BTW my BF also sleep with my wife) confided in me I would make them regret for ever telling me.
> 
> A consequence they and I would have to face for there bad choice in betraying their spouse.


Well I can see that if your friend slept with your wife that would make it hard to care about friends a little. 

But if the friend hadn't done anything to me. And they told me about an affair they had, they are still my friend. And once you are my close friend, I will go to hell and back for you, unless you do something seriously damaging to me.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> Until their screw up at work starts affecting you, anyway.


Then I will first deal with that person directly. My first reaction is not to go tell on them to the boss.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Soooo, Only your close friends or relatives should tell you your house is on fire? okie dokie.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> In that situation you worry about and deal with your own. You speak with your spouse to get things fixed. Let the other person deal with their own spouse. Maybe you are better off knowing and dealing with your spouse directly about the affair, but you don't know that is the case for the other spouse. Maybe the affair ends and it is better for them if it is not known. Most of you would say no to that idea, but its not your life and your marriage, so you shouldn't get to decide.


But that is exactly my point, I would not have known if the OWs H hadn't told me, and who knows, the A might still be going on. Do you seriously think that is better? That I'd be better off?
So basically what you are saying is that if your spouse has an A you'd rather not know? That's your choice, but you know, when you've been married 20 years, and things just aren't right a d you've got this strange feeling your spouse is disconnecting? The. He's a bit distant but you can't put your finger on it, then he's late home from work and he starts going out more, but you still can't put your finger on it. But your lying awake at night trying to figure it all out, why you've got that sicky feeling in your belly......... Shall I go on!
Then someone emails you and says your H is having an A with his wife! Then it all makes sense! I wasn't going crazy after all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm curious, would you be upset at the messenger if you were informed that your chick was screwing around on you?

What if a complete stranger called you up and told you "my husband is screwing around with your wife"

Would you tell this betrayed wife to mind her own business? 

I think that betrayed wife is now part of your mairraige since her husband is now part of the dynamics of your marriage.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

walkonmars said:


> Soooo, Only your close friends or relatives should tell you your house is on fire? okie dokie.


Really? That is the type of example you use to compare this to. 
I don't know about you, but I see an affair as something personal, house on fire, not the same type of personal private event.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> - A bystander has no responsibility for another adult's well-being when they have no relationship to that person.


Wow. Really? Just a fundamental difference in values.

In general if I see someone mistreating another and it is in my face I am going to do something about it. Especially if it is an abuse situation with children. I would notify CPS for example. Guess that makes me a busy body but frankly if one is going to be a jerk then be descrete about it. Not calling you names at all. I get where you are coming from and it is a valid view of course.. Once one puts it in peoples faces one cannot expect them to be complicit by ignoring it. It there is nothing wrong then everyone knowing about it should not matter. 

If I am on public transportation and I see a thug mistreating someone who cannot defend themselves, they are doing it in front of me so they and I have a serious problem. But that is just me. I will not look the other way.

Yes, I think cheating is at a different level than abuse but you made a general statement here that you may want to adjust and say that it is only about cheating.

But for sure I would have not keep a cheater a friend of mine. Again I would act if it were close freinds or relatives. Since I would be cutting the cheater out of my life and my families lives I would want all concerned to know why.

So the moral of the story is do what you want but do not expect everyone to turn a blind eye. Someone just may call you on it. Do they have a right too? Well do you have a right to put in their face and expect them to be complicit? 

I have no sympathy for a low life who is cheating. Period.

All of this is really an agenda. The agenda is to make cheating the norm. To make it socially acceptable. To isolate the BS from the world. This is part of a support system for cheaters.

This would make a very good thread on a how to cheat website. Lets keep pushing the social agenda to push the envelope for cheaters.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> I'm curious, would you be upset at the messenger if you were informed that your chick was screwing around on you?
> 
> What if a complete stranger called you up and told you "my husband is screwing around with your wife"
> 
> ...


Yes I would be mad at the messanger. 
When I was younger, I found out about a very personal/emotional event from someone who was not directly involved in the situation. I was furious that I didn't find out from someone different and it took me a long time to let go of the anger I had at that person who told me.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Lets stay focused here. The senerio is exposure good, would you tell the AP spouse.....

I get the whole if a friend told you he was having an affair thing. What I disaggree with is the fact that OP wouldn't tell the other spouse that his wife was cheating with their spouse.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Wow. Really? Just a fundamental difference in values.
> 
> In general if I see someone mistreating another and it is in my face I am going to do something about it. Especially if it is an abuse situation with children. I would notify CPS for example. Guess that makes me a busy body but frankly if you are going to be a jerk then be escrete about it. Once you put it in peoples faces you cannot expect them to be complicit by ignoring it. It there is nothing wrong then everyone knowing about it should not matter.
> 
> ...


I was waiting for this type of comparison to come up. I don't relate child abuse or spousal abuse to cheating. As you said, it is on a different level. I don't think those levels are anywhere near each other. 

You also say you would cut a friend out of your life if you found out they were cheating on their spouse. That is a different opinion, I feel it would be my place to help my friend through his/her tough situation. I am friends with them and they obviously need me. Maybe that is just to talk it though and help get some type of resolution. But everyone in their life makes mistakes and has events that cause trouble, we shouldn't abandon those people. That is when they need their friends the most.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

gbrad said:


> Yes I would be mad at the messanger.
> When I was younger, I found out about a very personal/emotional event from someone who was not directly involved in the situation. I was furious that I didn't find out from someone different and it took me a long time to let go of the anger I had at that person who told me.


In this senerio, this poor women just finds out her marriage was a bunch of lies and most likely her family will break up do to this affair with your wife, and you would be upset at this women??


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> Lets stay focused here. The senerio is exposure good, would you tell the AP spouse.....
> 
> I get the whole if a friend told you he was having an affair thing. What I disagree with is the fact that OP wouldn't tell the other spouse that his wife was cheating with their spouse.


All of this is relevant. 
I would say, the one scenario that I could conceive giving into and being semi okay with is the other betrayed spouse. 
But friends who tell me things, it is my job to help them and to keep their trust.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You make a good point, and helping a friend save his marriage is one thing but to enable an affair to continue is wrong IMHO.

I would not support my friends affair, so there is a good chance that my friend would end our friendship cuz I wouldn't help him or enable him to keep cheating.

So if the friend wanted help ending his affair is one thing but supporting my friend to continue his deciet to his wife would not be cool.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> I don't know what should have happened as a result. I do think that some affairs are meant to happen for various reasons. Things happen in life, we have life altering events to help change us.


This is a religious or philosophical statement, without directing it or crediting it towards any particular deity. Who or what decides we need these things - why do some people need them and not others? I think telling yourself "things happen for a reason" is a really great way of convincing yourself it is all out of your hands, and even if something is happening right in front of you, you have no responsibility towards it. 

How about the spouses who post here on TAM where their husband/wife had affairs and brought them home a VD? Did the affair happen because they -needed- herpes? How is herpes a life altering event that is helping to change their life for the better? How about AIDS? Would that be something that happened to them for a reason?

The reality is, in this day and age - whether or not you decide to inform or expose, when non-martial sexual contact is going on, the unaware third party spouse is being potentially doomed to life-long illness. Illness that, in case they do decide to end the marriage over their partner's affair(s) could make it difficult if not impossible for them to have another relationship. Things that could make them sterile, if they want to have children in a future relationship. 

So - you can philosophize until the day is long about whether it is right or wrong to inform (or whether or not the unaware spouse "deserves" to be told because they missed red flags)- but if you don't inform, their unaware spouse is being taken advantage of, and could indeed, be getting a death sentence.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

The more I am getting older the more I agree with my friend. I have a female friend that is happily married for 26 years. Before they got married she said to her future husband that if he is not serious about divorce than she doesn’t want any infidelity confession. She simply doesn’t want to know it, **** happens and if he feels that he is in love with her and want to stay with her then she doesn’t care. Actually I think he never cheated on her. She also always was very negative about people that volunteer any information to the family of a cheater. She thought it is not their business and they don’t do any good. 
And I think that makes sense. It is better to trust than to be paranoid. If there was nothing it will stay nothing unless you’ll dig it to a big wound and will turn into gangrene. If it meant to be a big deal again nothing you can do. You can live happily for another few years and deal with it then time will come or you can turn your life to hell right now. And maybe you could even turn your life to hell for the rest of your life if you will stay married using all the guilt tricks possible, scare you cheating spouse into useless efforts to keep marriage although you are already grown apart long ago. 
I think it is better not to think about potential cheating but try to make your life together a little bit nicer every day. And if **** happened then let it go. Stay friends. Try to find a positive side.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> I was waiting for this type of comparison to come up. I don't relate child abuse or spousal abuse to cheating. As you said, it is on a different level. I don't think those levels are anywhere near each other.
> 
> You also say you would cut a friend out of your life if you found out they were cheating on their spouse. That is a different opinion, I feel it would be my place to help my friend through his/her tough situation. I am friends with them and they obviously need me. Maybe that is just to talk it though and help get some type of resolution. But everyone in their life makes mistakes and has events that cause trouble, we shouldn't abandon those people. That is when they need their friends the most.


But I do. We have VERY different value systems.
I would let them know what they needed to do but I would not support them in cheating. So I would cut them loose. 

This is not about mistakes. It is about choices. Lotsa folks in prison who made poor choices. You can call them mistakes. They did not pick up the wrong pen that was out of ink. That is a mistake. But it comes down to accountability. So few people have any concept of it.

The cheater has abandoned their marriage. They are the problem. A cheater can turn things around. But they need a serious smack in the head to do so.

Again we have completely different value systems and that is fine.

I see cheating as abuse. To man a wife cheating is as hurtful as a rape. YMMV. You seem not to be so much into this marriage thing anyway.

So the cheater needs to be descrete and NOT involve the rest of us. It does not make it any more right but it does not try to pull others into the deception.

Most people ... not all perhaps but most would expect a loved family relative or close freind to confide in them.

Anyway, I have said my peice. There is really nothing more for me to add. Good luck in convincing folks that cheating is a right and should be supported by not exposing.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm just glad that not everyone in the world shares OP's belief, seriously wtf?

Knowledge is power and without knowledge, life is just a lie. A blissful ignorance. Even bitter knowledge is better than a lie, although it is definitely harder to swallow.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

And to the OP's "yes I would like to get angry at the messenger" response:

I believe that truth and meaning is the quest of our lives. So I wouldn't sit idly by to see even a distant neighbor get screwed over behind his/her back. I am bound by my own moral guidelines, to give that person a chance at the truth. Just because a person is trusting and blind to red flags doesn't mean he isn't worthy of a chance of truth. 

For people I don't know well personally, I'd take the anonymous route. For people I know personally, I'd take the "let's have a private chat" route. If that person gets mad at me for opening his/her eyes, then okay I don't need a person like that in my life.

And in fact if I knew there was a person who wouldn't do this to me in my close quarters, I would shun them away. I don't need enablers or toxic friends. The cheaters' and liars' justification and rationalization sequence already runs immaculately, no need to oil the cogs.

And yes I do this with all crime and sleazebaggery. I am just that much of a busybody. I am just despicable.

And with that I bow respectfully and make my way out of the thread.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Wow. Really? Just a fundamental difference in values.
> 
> In general if I see someone mistreating another and it is in my face I am going to do something about it. Especially if it is an abuse situation with children. I would notify CPS for example. Guess that makes me a busy body but frankly if you are going to be a jerk then be escrete about it. Once you put it in peoples faces you cannot expect them to be complicit by ignoring it. It there is nothing wrong then everyone knowing about it should not matter.
> 
> ...


Love your response, Entropy! :smthumbup:

I can answer this on a relative basis or a black and white basis. My statement that a bystander's not responsible is a black and white basis statement, and whether it's about cheating, abuse, or a house on fire, my personal reaction would be based on other relative factors. 

At a starting point, I take the position I stated. It's not up to me to police everyone else's behaviors, even if I don't approve, and that I am ultimately not responsible for another's well being. 

In reality, though, there would be many factors that would influence a person's decision. Here are some that would affect my decision-making processes: 

- What is the likely outcome of my involvement?
- Will my involvement have a significant impact?
- Is my involvement necessary for the problem to be resolved?
- How immediate or chronic is the problem? 
- What will happen if I do not act?
- Will my involvement create a benefit, cause harm, or both? 
- Who would benefit or be harmed, and how? 
- Does it affect me personally?

And in each of the examples that have been thrown out there, I'd weigh those factors differently. 

For cheating, if I was a non-involved bystander who sees a stranger that lives across the street having an affair, my answers would look like this:

- My involvement could stop an affair, earn me a busy-body reputation with the neighbor(s), could result in children being stripped of access to their parents, etc., or could be ignored.
- My impact, then, would be difficult to measure or evaluate.
- I'd judge that the problem could be resolved without me, and that the neighbor has a greater duty to watch for his/her marriage than I do.
- I would see it as a chronic problem for the neighbor, and I am not prepared to be chronically involved, so this would be a problem for me.
- If I don't act, the status quo will not have changed for better or worse.
- My involvement could have both benefits and harms.
- I'd evaluate that it could benefit the betrayed spouse, but harm any children involved. It would also harm the betrayed spouse in the sense that they're likely to feel pain that wouldn't be present if I didn't get involved, even though it was likely to help them in other ways.
- It would not affect me personally if I didn't get involved because I don't have a relationship with them. 

If it was cheating affecting my friend, I'd answer a few of those differently. Specifically, I'd say that it affected me personally, and I would judge my involvement to have more impact because the friend can gauge my credibility.

For a house fire or watching a kid be abused in public, I'd say my involvement would have an immediate impact upon an immediate problem, that my involvement would have only positive benefits, and that not getting involved would affect me personally because it wouldn't jibe with my conscience. 

For a coworker stealing paper clips from the company, I would determine that my involvement would have a greater impact than is warranted, but if that coworker was embezzling funds, I'd think that my involvement would benefit all the people who could lose their jobs if the company went broke.

At all times, I would be aware that my involvement in others' lives DOES have a ripple effect that is not always welcomed by the recipient and that if I step in, I am judging them as incompetent to see/solve their own problem. They wouldn't resent that in some cases (like a house fire or a bad employee) but in other cases, they could resent my intrusion a great deal.


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## Jack29 (Oct 20, 2012)

Id rather know from a stranger as soon as possible than wait a long time for someone i know to break it to me gently.

And even if you are the type who does not want to know YOU STILL WANT TO KNOW ASAP because: What about STDSs?


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> You make a good point, and helping a friend save his marriage is one thing but to enable an affair to continue is wrong IMHO.
> 
> I would not support my friends affair, so there is a good chance that my friend would end our friendship cuz I wouldn't help him or enable him to keep cheating.
> 
> So if the friend wanted help ending his affair is one thing but supporting my friend to continue his deciet to his wife would not be cool.


I don't see it as just helping the friend to save the marriage, maybe that isn't the best thing. Maybe what the friend really needs is help at ending the marriage. My point is, it is not for you to decide. You give them the best advice you can, you help them the best that you can. What they decide in the end is up to them. If it comes down to telling them eventually they need to make a choice, I get that. But also expecting them to end the affair cold turkey or the friendship is off, I'm not sure that is the best way to approach it. You just need to be the friend through a hard time. Regardless of what that hard time is.
I don't support all of the choices my friend make and we don't all have the same beliefs, but I still care about them and will stand by them when they need me.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Starstarfish said:


> This is a religious or philosophical statement, without directing it or crediting it towards any particular deity. Who or what decides we need these things - why do some people need them and not others? I think telling yourself "things happen for a reason" is a really great way of convincing yourself it is all out of your hands, and even if something is happening right in front of you, you have no responsibility towards it.
> 
> How about the spouses who post here on TAM where their husband/wife had affairs and brought them home a VD? Did the affair happen because they -needed- herpes? How is herpes a life altering event that is helping to change their life for the better? How about AIDS? Would that be something that happened to them for a reason?
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying about the diseases. I like to think that people are atleast smart about it and use protection against that (though I know not everyone does). But I can't make my judgement on this based off of the whole, what if they get a disease. I could get diseases from people in all kinds of situations unintentionally, I can't live based on that what if. 
As for the philosophy behind what you said. I have a strong faith and while I do not understand everything that happens in this world, I do understand that many things happen for reasons I will never understand. 

Your death sentence comment at the end...If I knew someone had Aids and was having an affair, then that is different, but I am not talking about those extreme situations.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> I see cheating as abuse. *To man a wife cheating is as hurtful as a rape. * YMMV. You seem not to be so much into this marriage thing anyway.


WOW. Speechless. Yep, definitely I have different values and I am proud of it. I don’t see any difference in rules applied to male and female.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> But I do. We have VERY different value systems.
> I would let them know what they needed to do but I would not support them in cheating. So I would cut them loose.
> 
> This is not about mistakes. It is about choices. Lotsa folks in prison who made poor choices. You can call them mistakes. They did not pick up the wrong pen that was out of ink. That is a mistake. But it comes down to accountability. So few people have any concept of it.
> ...


You are wrong that I don't take marriage seriously. I may not be happy in my marriage, but I do take marriage seriously, there is a difference. 
We also have a different value system when it comes to friends. Me, I am absolutely loyal to my friends. I feel it is my duty to help them whenever they need it and when they go through times, it is my job to be by their side if they need that. 
You also see cheating as abuse, and by your words make it sound as if only the cheating spouse is at fault. To me, if there is cheating, there is a problem in the marriage (maybe not always), which means both people are at fault in some way. I don't think cheating should be supported. Never said that. 
But I do think people need to learn to mind their own business and stay out of other peoples marriages, unless they are asked to be brought into it.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Jack29 said:


> What about STDSs?


There are condoms. And many people got AIDS from blood transfusion.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I'm just glad that not everyone in the world shares OP's belief, seriously wtf?
> 
> Knowledge is power and without knowledge, life is just a lie. A blissful ignorance. Even bitter knowledge is better than a lie, although it is definitely harder to swallow.


As I believe Kathy stated, these people are adults, that need to be responsible for their own lives. There are probably a handful of people in my neighborhood right now who are having affairs. If I randomly found evidence about one of those affairs, it would be none of my business. Not my place at all to go same something.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> Love your response, Entropy! :smthumbup:
> 
> I can answer this on a relative basis or a black and white basis. My statement that a bystander's not responsible is a black and white basis statement, and whether it's about cheating, abuse, or a house on fire, my personal reaction would be based on other relative factors.
> 
> ...


Very well said. You are better with words than I am. I bring too much emotion into it to say it that well.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> So if a friend of yours told you about an affair he/she had, you would stop being his/her friend? Wow, that is cold.


No, it's not cold. I don't hang with adulterers. I also don't hang with shoplifters. 

Maybe you should do your clenched stomach a favor, and not debate this issue. You certainly have a right to your opinion, as we all do, but the fact that a stance in opposition to your's makes you physically sick ... well, what's the point of hashing it out?


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> No, it's not cold. * I don't hang with adulterers. I also don't hang with shoplifters. *
> Maybe you should do your clenched stomach a favor, and not debate this issue. You certainly have a right to your opinion, as we all do, but the fact that a stance in opposition to your's makes you physically sick ... well, what's the point of hashing it out?


Well… in US shoplifting is a crime at least misdemeanor could be even a felony, adultery is not. Same in Europe, Australia, New Zeeland, part of Asia… Taliban would agree with you though.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> No, it's not cold. I don't hang with adulterers. I also don't hang with shoplifters.
> 
> Maybe you should do your clenched stomach a favor, and not debate this issue. You certainly have a right to your opinion, as we all do, but the fact that a stance in opposition to your's makes you physically sick ... well, what's the point of hashing it out?


Do you have any friends that you disagree with some choices they make or things they do, religious beliefs they have? 
All of my friends are different, none of us are identical in what we think is right and how we choose to live our lives. But I am still friends with them and I care about them. Unless they do something to hurt me personally, that wont change. 
The point of hashing it out is in hopes that someone, even one person will see the other side of the coin.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

hekati said:


> Well… in US shoplifting is a crime at least misdemeanor could be even a felony, adultery is not. Same in Europe, Australia, New Zeeland, part of Asia… Taliban would agree with you though.


So if a close friend of yours shoplifted something, you wouldn't be friends with them anymore? Or you might, but you would rat them out? I don't think that is severe enough to tell on a close friend. 
Again people make mistakes (call them choices, or whatever you want, we all do things at one point in time we later wish we had not), that doesn't automatically mean they shouldn't have a friend by their side.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

hekati said:


> Well… in US shoplifting is a crime at least misdemeanor could be even a felony, adultery is not.


And you, dear lady, do NOT know what you are talking about. Seriously.

Ever heard of the Uniform Code of Military Justice? It is what governs our U.S. military. Article 134, which is considered the General Article, makes behavior which would discredit our armed services a no-no.

If you want me to expound in more detail for you on Article 134, as well as sub-articles that relate to it, I'd be glad to.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Do you have any friends that you disagree with some choices they make or things they do, religious beliefs they have?


Listen, gbrad, I already did my time on the debating team in college. I also had to formulate closing arguments, with about 10 minutes prep time, in moot court.

If I want to get on an internet debating website, I'll go do that. I am not here to debate. So I'll just leave you to argue this, clenched stomach and all, with others.

And I was darned good in a real courtroom too! See ya, brad!


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## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: Over Exposing an Affair*



gbrad said:


> I can't stand the idea that other people feel it is their business to go telling other people in a marriage about a spouses affair.


gbrad, I'm reading from my phone, therefore my search ability is limited. I see that you have almost 1,000 posts on TAM, but can only read a fraction of them through the search results.

Since I can't find the answer to this question for myself, I thought I'd ask you directly.

What is your personal experience with busting up an affair, or preventing one from being rekindled?


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

gbrad said:


> So if a close friend of yours shoplifted something, you wouldn't be friends with them anymore? Or you might, but you would rat them out? I don't think that is severe enough to tell on a close friend.
> Again people make mistakes (call them choices, or whatever you want, we all do things at one point in time we later wish we had not), that doesn't automatically mean they shouldn't have a friend by their side.


Actually I would stay friends. I agree with you that people make mistakes and sometimes big mistakes. Definitely if my friend would be a shoplifter there is no reason to cut him off. Moreover he need help because there could be two problems – he is really desperately need money, or he has some sort of addiction from kleptomania to drug addiction. In the both cases he needs help. And who will give him a help if not his friends.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> Listen, gbrad, I already did my time on the debating team in college. I also had to formulate closing arguments, with about 10 minutes prep time, in moot court.
> 
> If I want to get on an internet debating website, I'll go do that. I am not here to debate. So I'll just leave you to argue this, clenched stomach and all, with others.
> 
> And I was darned good in a real courtroom too! See ya, brad!


I was simply trying to make the point that I don't understand how it is any different. Just because you are good at debating, doesn't mean your opinion is more valid.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Leobwin said:


> gbrad, I'm reading from my phone, therefore my search ability is limited. I see that you have almost 1,000 posts on TAM, but can only read a fraction of them through the search results.
> 
> Since I can't find the answer to this question for myself, I thought I'd ask you directly.
> 
> What is your personal experience with busting up an affair, or preventing one from being rekindled?


I have never busted up an affair as you say. I have known about an affair or two. But, it was not my place to say anything.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> Love your response, Entropy! :smthumbup:
> 
> I can answer this on a relative basis or a black and white basis. My statement that a bystander's not responsible is a black and white basis statement, and whether it's about cheating, abuse, or a house on fire, my personal reaction would be based on other relative factors.
> 
> ...


And thinking it through is a reaonable thing for anyone to do. 

While I have seen someone get literally fired for stealing a company pen ... that is absurd. I agree. Also the assumption for this thread is that there is blatant cheating going on.

So in thinking it through one has to examine ones own values and be consdierate of the "greater" good for sure. Some folks take this marriage stuff more seriously than others and I have no doubt that is a major factor for all conecerned.

I do confess I often do not make my final decision on what would benefit me the most. Maybe this is out of habit if not something else. I am always dealing with conflict of interest and while I do consider what it might cost me personally I do not just act in my own slef interest. Perhaps I should do more so however. 

But without any mitigating circumstances and one could argue that always exists I would have to say that by default I would expose what I knew about an affair.

That said, if this was a mutual friend situation I would put every effort into convincing the cheating friend to come clean themselves and would probably allow a "reasonable" opportunity to do so. But the pressure would be firm. The thing is if they were my freind they would know me well enough to not expect me to support them in this.

Keep in mind in my own experience it was my friends who encouraged me to terminate the inappropriate relationship I had. They were true friends as I needed the smack in the head. My wife already was aware.

I too would not involve myself with a complete stranger either in the case of infidelity. But for sure close friends and relatives. For me not to do so I would consider a betrayal.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> You are wrong that I don't take marriage seriously. I may not be happy in my marriage, but I do take marriage seriously, there is a difference.
> We also have a different value system when it comes to friends. Me, I am absolutely loyal to my friends. I feel it is my duty to help them whenever they need it and when they go through times, it is my job to be by their side if they need that.
> You also see cheating as abuse, and by your words make it sound as if only the cheating spouse is at fault. To me, if there is cheating, there is a problem in the marriage (maybe not always), which means both people are at fault in some way. I don't think cheating should be supported. Never said that.
> But I do think people need to learn to mind their own business and stay out of other peoples marriages, unless they are asked to be brought into it.


Yes, when things escalate to cheating that person is 100% wrong.

You like to defend spouses looking for other "opportunities" or better mates while married.

So no I do not think you are as commited to marriage and fidelity as much as most people. You are always looking to create a gray area. I get it. It makes it easier for you to engage your marriage less and engage other people more. 

It is rationalization. Blaming a spouse for ones cheating is a non-starter.

This is the rhetoric of justifying the cheating. You want to make iit socially acceptable.

But you say you care about your friends? So why would you not tell your friend his wife or her husband was cheating? That to me is a betrayal. Do you decide between friends? Do you side with the wife if you like her better? Is is bros before hos? How do you decide NOT to tell? This is especially true if you are complicit in the affair. Like you are hanging out with your buddy and he is cheating while with you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> As I believe Kathy stated, these people are adults, that need to be responsible for their own lives. There are probably a handful of people in my neighborhood right now who are having affairs. If I randomly found evidence about one of those affairs, it would be none of my business. Not my place at all to go same something.


And indeed then it is none of your business if someone else exposes the affair. See you are now off the hook entirely.

Not all people are alike in life. Many folks "do not get involved". Others do to some extent. This is not likely to change. We can all have an opinion of where the line is. But ultimately it is a personal decision.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> And many people got AIDS from blood transfusion.


Uh- this hasn't been true since the 1980s. Sure people in the -past- got AIDS from blood transfusions, but these days they test donated blood. So - that's a fallacy. 

Also - ultimately, one has to decide what their conscience tells them is right. Is loyalty to one's friends a higher calling than doing the right thing? What crimes would they need to confess to that you wouldn't abide? Are you truly being their friend by enabling them to continue dangerous and illegal behavior, so that you don't have to be the "bad guy." 

Life is what you make of it. If you want to believe that you don't need to be involved because things are out of your hands, and happen for a reason, so be it. But, surely the Good Samaritan could have just walked on by - it wasn't his problem, he didn't need to get involved. Perhaps that guy got beat up for a reason, perhaps Fate thought he deserved to get robbed.

However, I think not getting involved and declaring everything "not my place" is part of what is wrong with society today. People blatantly see things going on that are wrong, but as long as they can tell themselves "it isn't my problem" - they don't get involved.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> And you, dear lady, do NOT know what you are talking about. Seriously.
> 
> Ever heard of the Uniform Code of Military Justice? It is what governs our U.S. military. Article 134, which is considered the General Article, makes behavior which would discredit our armed services a no-no.
> 
> If you want me to expound in more detail for you on Article 134, as well as sub-articles that relate to it, I'd be glad to.


So? There are certain restrictions that are related to a specific of the job I guess. Like a professor can’t have sex with his student. But in the civil society adultery is not a crime.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> And indeed then it is none of your business if someone else exposes the affair. See you are now off the hook entirely.
> 
> Not all people are alike in life. Many folks "do not get involved". Others do to some extent. This is not likely to change. We can all have an opinion of where the line is. But ultimately it is a personal decision.


Because you can hurt people. Not exposing affair doesn’t change anything. But imaging husband cheated on his wife. He regretted and realized that he loves his wife. His wife never noticed. Everyone were happy. Until you exposed it. Now wife feels like **** she can’t believe her husband any more. Their life turned into hell. And that all because of you.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Again, false - adultery is still technically a crime in 23 states. 

Mass. among 23 states where adultery is a crime, but rarely prosecuted - Nation - The Boston Globe

It's rarely prosecuted, but - it is indeed, still on the books as a crime.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes, when things escalate to cheating that person is 100% wrong.
> 
> You like to defend spouses looking for other "opportunities" or better mates while married.
> 
> ...


So as long as it never escalates to an affair, both people can be at fault for what is wrong in a marriage, but the moment it does, the other spouse is off the hook? Thats not right.
Quite often there are things that lead up to an affair, both people are responsible for those things. The affair is just one more thing added on the problems in the marriage. 

As for the friends issue. Not all friends am I equal friends with both parts of the couple. Sometimes I am only friends with the husband, sometimes only the wife. In those situations it is whoever I consider myself more of a close friend to. If I am only friends with the spouse and know them a little because I am close to the other person, it is not equal. If it were a situation where I were just casual friends with both of them, I probably wouldn't say anything.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Again, false - adultery is still technically a crime in 23 states.
> 
> Mass. among 23 states where adultery is a crime, but rarely prosecuted - Nation - The Boston Globe
> 
> It's rarely prosecuted, but - it is indeed, still on the books as a crime.


Yea, but it is joke, same as sodomy is still a crime in certain states. It is something from dark ages! Definitely the law should be revised moreover it is not enforced any more for a long time. 
LOL “it is needed” if it were needed there would be thousands cases. Most of people understand it is ridiculous. Yea, I didn’t know some states are so retarded


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> So if a friend of yours told you about an affair he/she had, you would stop being his/her friend? Wow, that is cold.


I've done this, albeit unintentionally. A friend of mine was using me as her excuse to get out. She claimed that her husband was horrible, that he was just the worst possible person. She painted him so bad I thought it was a GOOD thing she was getting out. She used me. She was cheating. She was seeing some guy she met through another friend of ours. Her husband asked me point blank if I knew anything... and I lied. He learned the truth, that I knew. And by that time, his wife had already left...and left the kids there. She always said the kids were her world. And yet, she left them with the man she believed to be the worst person in the world. Hell, she even badmouthed his parenting throughout this whole thing. But her husband no longer wished to speak to my husband because of me. And his wife played both sides. She made it out to be that I was TELLING her to do the things she did. 

I eventually learned the truth of what she had done, -playing both sides. I have since apologized to her now ex-husband and my husband and I are friends with him still. I decided from that point on that if a friend is cheating, they will be given the choice: tell the truth and stop cheating or we will no longer be friends. I am even at the point that I will say "tell the truth today/tonight, or I will tell tomorrow". There are VERY few circumstances where I would deviate from this stance... VERY FEW. 

Suffice it to say, yes, I would absolutely end a friendship if my friend was cheating. I've seen first hand what EA does, and I have seen what PA does to others. No. If I know, I won't keep it to myself, except for special circumstances... You don't have to agree with me. But if you know me in real life, then there are really only two ways to keep me from saying anything: don't do it...or don't tell me. Plain and simple.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha, that was a situation where you were put in a bad place. That friend didn't use you for advice or a shoulder to lean on in hard times, she simply used you. Not something a good friend would do.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Maricha, that was a situation where you were put in a bad place. That friend didn't use you for advice or a shoulder to lean on in hard times, she simply used you. Not something a good friend would do.


And I would still expose if I knew it of anyone. Having been in the situation in the first place, I won't keep my mouth shut. You like it, fine. You don't...well, don't cheat or don't tell me. Those are the choices. Because if I learn of it...your spouse will be informed, if I know you in real life...whether a neighbor or a close friend.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

hekati said:


> Because you can hurt people. Not exposing affair doesn’t change anything. But imaging husband cheated on his wife. He regretted and realized that he loves his wife. His wife never noticed. Everyone were happy. Until you exposed it. Now wife feels like **** she can’t believe her husband any more. Their life turned into hell. *And that all because of you.*


No... not because of me. Because he couldn't keep his d!ck in his pants! She married a man who, if he were truly remorseful about his cheating, would have come clean to his wife. But no, he decided to keep it a secret. Never mind what diseases he likely exposed her to. Oh, that's right, he used a condom, right? That means he thought about cheating for awhile before he did it. No. Had he kept it in his pants, his marriage wouldn't be in shambles. Give me a break!


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> No... not because of me. Because he couldn't keep his d!ck in his pants! She married a man who, if he were truly remorseful about his cheating, would have come clean to his wife. But no, he decided to keep it a secret. Never mind what diseases he likely exposed her to. Oh, that's right, he used a condom, right? That means he thought about cheating for awhile before he did it. No. Had he kept it in his pants, his marriage wouldn't be in shambles. Give me a break!


Several women I know think that if he is remorseful he would try not to hurt her even more telling her all his useless confessions. He would keep it a secret that he would take with him to his grave. Of cause if he got VD he would have to tell. But if he is smart enough to use condom at least why should he share all these crap with his wife. I know several women that want neither the confessions nor they want any information from the concerned neighbors. It would be better if he never did it. But if it happened it is not obvious that your involvement will help. I don’t know what I would prefer. If I don’t know and we are happy why would I want all the information that doesn’t do me any good. If I am unhappy than I need to make a decision about what to do with my unhappiness. If he confessed and asked to forgive I am in a situation that I am unhappy and I need to make a decision about it and it could actually destroy my marriage or make me always wonder if he loves me if he really happy with me, should I leave him, should I stay… Why do I need it? So I would agree with my friend – if I don’t ask, don’t volunteer me the information.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

hekati said:


> Several women I know think that if he is remorseful he would try not to hurt her even more telling her all his useless confessions. He would keep it a secret that he would take with him to his grave. Of cause if he got VD he would have to tell. But if he is smart enough to use condom at least why should he share all these crap with his wife. I know several women that want neither the confessions nor they want any information from the concerned neighbors. It would be better if he never did it. But if it happened it is not obvious that your involvement will help. I don’t know what I would prefer. If I don’t know and we are happy why would I want all the information that doesn’t do me any good. If I am unhappy than I need to make a decision about what to do with my unhappiness. If he confessed and asked to forgive I am in a situation that I am unhappy and I need to make a decision about it and it could actually destroy my marriage or make me always wonder if he loves me if he really happy with me, should I leave him, should I stay… Why do I need it? So I would agree with my friend – if I don’t ask, don’t volunteer me the information.


Well, this is one thing we will just have to continue to disagree about. I have had EAs and been betrayed by my husband who also had EA. The first he found himself. The second, I confessed. With his, I found out by accident. The one thing neither of us did was get physical with anyone else. For that, there is no going back. Neither of us could ever reconcile then. But, hey, far be it from me to tell you that you can't keep your head buried in the sand. If you wish to continue living a lie that someone, somewhere knows? More power to you. As for the EA you are involved in already...Well, be glad we don't know each other except on the forum. And I would want someone to tell me if my husband was cheating... condom or not. If he has any kind of sexual relationship with someone else, I want to know. I don't want to live a lie. Period.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Well, this is one thing we will just have to continue to disagree about. I have had EAs and been betrayed by my husband who also had EA. The first he found himself. The second, I confessed. With his, I found out by accident. The one thing neither of us did was get physical with anyone else. For that, there is no going back. Neither of us could ever reconcile then. But, hey, far be it from me to tell you that you can't keep your head buried in the sand. If you wish to continue living a lie that someone, somewhere knows? More power to you. As for the EA you are involved in already...Well, be glad we don't know each other except on the forum. And I would want someone to tell me if my husband was cheating... condom or not. If he has any kind of sexual relationship with someone else, I want to know. I don't want to live a lie. Period.


Yep, we are going in cycle. You want any affair of your spouse to be exposed, and that’s fine. There are people that don’t. Let say if I know you or a person like you, and I know 100% that spouse of the person have an affair I guess I may tell it to the person. But if I don’t know the person moreover know for sure that she doesn’t want to know then it is not my business. These people don’t consider it living in a lie. It is impossible to live in lie. If your spouse doesn’t love you, you would feel it. And it is an uncomfortable feeling that makes you think about a divorce regardless EA or a real affair. If you are happy then whatever happened somewhere it is a mistake that really doesn’t matter. 
So you would tell to my husband that I saw a dream of my ex and that made me sexually aroused? He already knows that my ex said me that he still loves me. After that there was basically a whole crap nothing. Well… he is in a really bad situation right now, I was trying to be his friend, maybe help financially. I have sexual thought about ex but I keep it inside. I am anonymous here, had a crazy idea was to vent it off. So you really think I should say about all those sexual thoughts to my husband?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

hekati said:


> Yep, we are going in cycle. You want any affair of your spouse to be exposed, and that’s fine. There are people that don’t. Let say if I know you or a person like you, and I know 100% that spouse of the person have an affair I guess I may tell it to the person. But if I don’t know the person moreover know for sure that she doesn’t want to know then it is not my business. These people don’t consider it living in a lie. It is impossible to live in lie. If your spouse doesn’t love you, you would feel it. And it is an uncomfortable feeling that makes you think about a divorce regardless EA or a real affair. If you are happy then whatever happened somewhere it is a mistake that really doesn’t matter.
> So you would tell to my husband that I saw a dream of my ex and that made me sexually aroused? He already knows that my ex said me that he still loves me. After that there was basically a whole crap nothing. Well… he is in a really bad situation right now, I was trying to be his friend, maybe help financially. I have sexual thought about ex but I keep it inside. I am anonymous here, had a crazy idea was to vent it off. So you really think I should say about all those sexual thoughts to my husband?


Honestly? I'd give you the chance to get the ex out and then you tell your husband. But that's my personal feelings on the subject. You feel differently. Personally, I don't think an ex should be your friend. I have no choice with one... he's married to my cousin. But I don't talk to him unless it is about my cousin and/or their kids. Most things I talk to my cousin. But over all? No. Unless you have kids together and have reason to speak because of that. But "just friends"? Not a chance.


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## tiredwife&sahm (Jan 4, 2012)

OP. I agree. For close friends and relatives,yea I'm spilling the beans.Yet I won't get involved in random folks
life. That's not even safe.People have lost lives from being nosey. You may tell on your neighbor and seal your fate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

gbrad said:


> So if a friend of yours told you about an affair he/she had, you would stop being his/her friend? Wow, that is cold.


No, it's not cold. It's choosing your friends well.

I would end my friendship with a child molester, a bank robber, a hone invasion robber, and thief, an arsonist, and yes a cheater.

I hold my friends to a high standard, and I expect them to do the same.

If you can't trust a person to be true to their spouse, you are a fool to think you can trust them to a true friend.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So gbrad, if you say someone breaking into a neighbors house would you close the blinds and ,look the other way?

Why do you put a higher value on the stuff than you fidelity?


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> No, it's not cold. It's choosing your friends well.
> 
> I would end my friendship with a child molester, a bank robber, a hone invasion robber, and thief, an arsonist, and yes a cheater.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of those you mentioned. thief and cheater; could probably still be friends with both of those. People being true to their spouse, that is not just about trust, there are so many things that can cause that. And I understand that relationships are difficult.


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## missmim (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm in the same camp as those who would expose with family and friends, but I agree that a neighbor or stranger's marriage is not my business. I have no idea who they are or what's going on in their lives. What if the BS had just lost a family member, sunk in a deep depression, is rageful and capable of phisical harm, or had just been diagnosed with terminal cancer or a plethora of other scenarios that I dont know because I don't know them. It could be the straw that broke the camels back with somebody who is depressed, or it could destroy the remaining time somebody has left on this earth. I am not all knowing and I certinaly wouldn't be so brazen to believe I know what is best for others just because it's what I would like. What is good for you does not mean it is good for everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> So gbrad, if you say someone breaking into a neighbors house would you close the blinds and ,look the other way?
> 
> Why do you put a higher value on the stuff than you fidelity?


I would call the cops, in part to protect that family from losing their possessions and because someone could be physically harmed. A complete stranger is doing something to them.
An affair is something personal. Completely different.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> I agree with most of those you mentioned. thief and cheater; could probably still be friends with both of those. People being true to their spouse, that is not just about trust, *there are so many things that can cause that.* And I understand that relationships are difficult.


Excuses. All that is. No excuse to cheat. Valuable lesson I learned the hard way, and I have no sympathy for someone who will cheat on their spouse, for any reason. ANY.

As for the poster who said "the BS may be depressed, or have just lost a family member" etc... well, one would think the cheating spouse would think about someone besides him/herself, wouldn't you? Again, no excuse to cheat. 

Look, I'm not going to walk up to some random person and say "hey, I saw your husband/wife out with this person and they seemed awfully cozy." But if I know the cheater, or the AP. Yes, I would tell the BS. But, I would give the cheater a chance to come clean first. I'm not totally heartless. But once you have been burned by a so-called friend, you think twice about not telling. And, as I have responded on other posts, I have said "IF I KNEW YOU IN REAL LIFE"... not "if you were some random person on the street". But someone I know? A coworker or neighbor? Yup. Well, coworker is moot since I'm a SAHM. But neighbors... I know most pretty well here. And the ones I know, yes, I would. Including the one who lives right next door.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

So the question in MY mind as I read this thread...gbrad..are you a cheater? Have you cheated in the past? Because you seem very defensive about this subject, some of the statements you have made about affairs raise flags, in my opinion. Personally I cannot imagine NOT telling the other BS...


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## missmim (Dec 29, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Excuses. All that is. No excuse to cheat. Valuable lesson I learned the hard way, and I have no sympathy for someone who will cheat on their spouse, for any reason. ANY.
> 
> As for the poster who said "the BS may be depressed, or have just lost a family member" etc... well, one would think the cheating spouse would think about someone besides him/herself, wouldn't you? Again, no excuse to cheat.
> 
> Look, I'm not going to walk up to some random person and say "hey, I saw your husband/wife out with this person and they seemed awfully cozy." But if I know the cheater, or the AP. Yes, I would tell the BS. But, I would give the cheater a chance to come clean first. I'm not totally heartless. But once you have been burned by a so-called friend, you think twice about not telling. And, as I have responded on other posts, I have said "IF I KNEW YOU IN REAL LIFE"... not "if you were some random person on the street". But someone I know? A coworker or neighbor? Yup. Well, coworker is moot since I'm a SAHM. But neighbors... I know most pretty well here. And the ones I know, yes, I would. Including the one who lives right next door.


 I'm just talking about exposing to somebody whose life and relationship I don't know. The original post specifically talks about exposing to people whom you don't know more than mere aquantinces 

The degree of inexcusibility is completely subjective. I can say with certainty that there is no excuse for MY husband to cheat. I, however, cannot say that the is no excuse for my neighbors husband to cheat, that is completely up to her. Therefore I am in no position to go high and mighty and speak as if my relationship standards should be adhered to by everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

3Xnocharm said:


> So the question in MY mind as I read this thread...gbrad..are you a cheater? Have you cheated in the past? Because you seem very defensive about this subject, some of the statements you have made about affairs raise flags, in my opinion. Personally I cannot imagine NOT telling the other BS...


No, I have never been on either side. 
I'm defensive because I think it is wrong for people to go around influencing other peoples marriages like that. Yes, the person who had the affair did that, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. 
I'm defensive not because I think this could ever impact my life directly, but I hate to think it impacts other peoples life by these choices that someone thinks they should go "tell on" others.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> Excuses. All that is. No excuse to cheat. Valuable lesson I learned the hard way, and I have no sympathy for someone who will cheat on their spouse, for any reason. ANY.
> 
> As for the poster who said "the BS may be depressed, or have just lost a family member" etc... well, one would think the cheating spouse would think about someone besides him/herself, wouldn't you? Again, no excuse to cheat.
> or.


You and others keep saying it is just excuses. I am not trying to excuse the affair and make it okay. But you can not deny the fact that there are things that happen in a marriage that build up and lead towards someone having an affair. 
Just because one person has an affair it doesn't make all of those things just go away. Even if the person admits the affair, all of those issues will still need to be addressed too if the marriage is to become anything again.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

hekati said:


> Well… in US shoplifting is a crime at least misdemeanor could be even a felony, adultery is not. Same in Europe, Australia, New Zeeland, part of Asia… Taliban would agree with you though.


and neither is exposing adulterers..... so what is your point?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> You and others keep saying it is just excuses. I am not trying to excuse the affair and make it okay. But you can not deny the fact that there are things that happen in a marriage that build up and lead towards someone having an affair.
> Just because one person has an affair it doesn't make all of those things just go away. Even if the person admits the affair, all of those issues will still need to be addressed too if the marriage is to become anything again.


And, as many have stated many times over... address those issues. Don't cheat on your spouse. Things build up, yes. But it still doesn't excuse someone to cheat on his or her spouse. And if someone is having an affair, it only exacerbates the problems in the marriage. Hard enough addressing an issue with, for instance, one spouse going out drinking every weekend with friends, rather than spending time with his or her spouse. Add an affair to that, and it becomes exponentially worse.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

When I was in 19 in undergrad, I met a guy in med school and we went out a couple of times. Because he did call me often I didn't think about things. And well, when you're in yur teens, early 20s, who thinks about who might be married.

Well, my sister was starting med school that year. We looked a lot alike and someone let her know: "Do you realise that you sister is going out with a married man?"

I am glad that I learned sooner rather than later. He was pissed that someone "ratted" on him. So one up and one down is the score card here.

So, gbrad, I guess you will have to accept that it's a zero sum game.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

missmim said:


> I'm just talking about exposing to somebody whose life and relationship I don't know. The original post specifically talks about exposing to people whom you don't know more than mere aquantinces
> 
> The degree of inexcusibility is completely subjective. I can say with certainty that there is no excuse for MY husband to cheat. I, however, cannot say that the is no excuse for my neighbors husband to cheat, that is completely up to her. Therefore I am in no position to go high and mighty and speak as if my relationship standards should be adhered to by everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If the spouse allows her husband to have other sexual partners, that's fine for her. That would indicate an OPEN marriage. If OPEN works for their marriage, whatever floats their boat. But if the betrayed is in the dark about it? No. And I'm sorry, but if someone I KNOW is affected by cheating, I'm not keeping my mouth shut to the spouse or the APs spouse, or whoever I DO know in the situation. As I said: don't want me to say anything, don't tell me. It really is that simple. However, even simpler? Don't screw around on your spouse.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hekati said:


> Because you can hurt people. Not exposing affair doesn’t change anything. But imaging husband cheated on his wife. He regretted and realized that he loves his wife. His wife never noticed. Everyone were happy. Until you exposed it. Now wife feels like **** she can’t believe her husband any more. Their life turned into hell. And that all because of you.


Affairs always have a cost. Cheating is abuse. No everyone is not happy in an affair. Moreover an affair poisons a relationship even if the BS never finds out. Affairs suck the life out of the marriage. Cheaters turn marriages into hell. Getting the truth exposed does not.

More cheater rhetoric. The thing is that cheaters need not involve the rest of us to enable them. If you are going to cheat then be descete about it. Do not enlist your friends and try to make them complicit in it.

Again thie tone of this message is to make cheating socially acceptable. To make the cheater somehow the victim. Absurd. Are you for real?



> The question is basically could I try to save marriage or I shouldn’t even try?
> I was in love few years ago, madly in love. We broke up basically because he didn’t trust me. He married and I married. My husband is my best friend, we were doing great together. We don’t have children and we don’t have any financial problems. I have a good job. So there are no problems.
> But now my ex wrote me an email. He divorced and that was nasty. Basically his wife was jealous of me and finally of any girl he met. And I don’t want to disclose the details but it was as nasty as could be. Well his wife emailed me several times before trying to figure out if we are still seen each other while we didn’t even correspond by email. Obviously she was a jealous type.
> So we start talking and we realize that we are still in love. I realized that I tried to fell in love with my husband but I love in him only features what reminds me my ex.
> I don’t know what to do with it. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I would like to stay friends with my husband. I have many male friends that I never had any romantic relations with. The problem is that I want sex with my ex and only with him.


Ok, so I read your thread and you are wanting to leave your husband for your ex BF. 

Wonderful.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

We should also point out that since divorce is relatively easy in the Western world, then there is no justification for cheating.

My sister's ex cheated on her for 6 years, useful the household budget to put his mistress through school and to buy her a house. Both my sister and her ex are medical doctors so they were bringing about the same amount of money and they had 2 children between them.

I think my sister is still on the fence about exposure. One minute she'll say that all the people who said they knew, she wishes that they had told her before she announced her divorce. And in another conversation, she will say, what I didn't know, didn't hurt me. OK........


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

Glad you feel that way....and hey I know plenty of MM out there that would love to have an affair with your wife. What helps is that you would never expose to their spouse. So what do they have to fear....you....I am sorry but my husband would fear my wrath more than he would fear you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> As for the friends issue. Not all friends am I equal friends with both parts of the couple. Sometimes I am only friends with the husband, sometimes only the wife. In those situations it is whoever I consider myself more of a close friend to. If I am only friends with the spouse and know them a little because I am close to the other person, it is not equal. If it were a situation where I were just casual friends with both of them, I probably wouldn't say anything.


So if you were closer to the cheater you would help hide their affair. If you were closer to the other you would tell them because you care about them.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> No, I have never been on either side.
> I'm defensive because I think it is wrong for people to go around influencing other peoples marriages like that. Yes, the person who had the affair did that, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.
> I'm defensive not because I think this could ever impact my life directly, but I hate to think it impacts other peoples life by these choices that someone thinks they should go "tell on" others.


The fallacy is that you think telling a BS is wrong. 
That is fine for you but again it supports the agenda of convincing people that cheating is not just to be ignored but a right. That telling a BS is somehow wrong. 

The thing is that when you let something bad happen you are complicit with it. It is a betrayal in and of itself. If you know about an affair and do not tell your relative or a close firend then that is its own betrayal.

Many of of us consider cheating to be wrong. You do not. Fine for you.
A friend is not a friend if they pull you into complicity with such actions.
You have stated you could be a friend with a cheater and a friend of a thief. This is just a fundamental disconnct in values. This varies across populations so no surprise here.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

gbrad said:


> In that situation you worry about and deal with your own. You speak with your spouse to get things fixed. Let the other person deal with their own spouse. Maybe you are better off knowing and dealing with your spouse directly about the affair, but you don't know that is the case for the other spouse. Maybe the affair ends and it is better for them if it is not known. Most of you would say no to that idea, but its not your life and your marriage, so you shouldn't get to decide.


Lets see...by me contacting her BH I found out she has a history of STDs. That allowed me to find out that even though this was my fwh's first affair, she is a serial cheater. I will also have proof should they try to contact each other ever again. They are now in MC and IC, and are working on their marriage for the kids sake. I am probably one of the few people who have held her accountable in her life.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> So if you were closer to the cheater you would help hide their affair. If you were closer to the other you would tell them because you care about them.


I never said help hide, I said help them through a tough time. That is what friends do. 

You also continue to state you feel that cheating is abuse. I am sorry you feel that way, but that is not the same way that everybody views. I think it is disrespectful to even put them in the same conversation.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> The fallacy is that you think telling a BS is wrong.
> That is fine for you but again it supports the agenda of convincing people that cheating is not just to be ignored but a right. That telling a BS is somehow wrong.
> 
> The thing is that when you let something bad happen you are complicit with it. It is a betrayal in and of itself. If you know about an affair and do not tell your relative or a close firend then that is its own betrayal.
> ...


Where did I say that cheating is not wrong? You continue to change my words. I do believe cheating is wrong, not sure why you get the impression I don't. 
I say I would be friends with them, because I am a loyal friend. People need their friends most during those dark times. That is not when they need people to leave them. Friends are for the good and bad times, not just when it is easy. 

I don't understand the betrayal part of what you said. Just because a friend tells me about an affair they had, doesn't make me a bad person for staying loyal to that friend and helping them through it instead of acting like tattle tale at a school and just ratting someone out. (that is what it reminds me of)
I can say, though I never have and don't plan on it, if I did have an affair, I guarantee I would have to tell one or two of my friends. Big events like that and troubled emotional situations, people need friends to go to during those times. I would go to the friends I trust the most with that information.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

underwater2010 said:


> Lets see...by me contacting her BH I found out she has a history of STDs. That allowed me to find out that even though this was my fwh's first affair, she is a serial cheater. I will also have proof should they try to contact each other ever again. They are now in MC and IC, and are working on their marriage for the kids sake. I am probably one of the few people who have held her accountable in her life.


I am glad that worked out. Even though I don't feel it was necessarily your place, luckily it worked out.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> I never said help hide, I said help them through a tough time. That is what friends do.
> 
> You also continue to state you feel that cheating is abuse. I am sorry you feel that way, but that is not the same way that everybody views. I think it is disrespectful to even put them in the same conversation.


There is no topic in the world that everybody views the same. I am saying that there are folks like myself who will indeed expose affairs to friends and relatives whether you agree or not.

Most cheaters would not view cheating as abuse for sure. Some non-cheaters as well no doubt. It is a very arguable position though. It is an abuse of ones power for sure if not in an open marriage. It is abuse of trust. To betray anyone in this way is abusive IMO. Ask the BS if this is abusive?

I am very clear you feel that cheating is not abuse.

So do you think cheating is a positive thing. Something good for a marriage? Something beneficial to the couple?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Where did I say that cheating is not wrong? You continue to change my words. I do believe cheating is wrong, not sure why you get the impression I don't.
> I say I would be friends with them, because I am a loyal friend. People need their friends most during those dark times. That is not when they need people to leave them. Friends are for the good and bad times, not just when it is easy.
> 
> *I don't understand the betrayal part of what you said. *Just because a friend tells me about an affair they had, doesn't make me a bad person for staying loyal to that friend and helping them through it instead of acting like tattle tale at a school and just ratting someone out. (that is what it reminds me of)
> I can say, though I never have and don't plan on it, if I did have an affair, I guarantee I would have to tell one or two of my friends. Big events like that and troubled emotional situations, people need friends to go to during those times. I would go to the friends I trust the most with that information.


Not telling a close friend or relative. Nothing ambiguous here. If you do not tell your friend about the affair you are being disloyal to them. 

Ratting out? Who talks like that? Tattle tale?

You would never tell. Well that is being complicit. 

You talk about possibly having an affair like it is a real option for you.

It is these comments that come right out and tell us where you stand on this. 

You say in this post that cheating is wrong yet you treat it as trivial. 

I am NOT playing word games with you. I am NOT twisting your words. Your words are very clear. The topics you defend are very clear.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> There is no topic in the world that everybody views the same. I am saying that there are folks like myself who will indeed expose affairs to friends and relatives whether you agree or not.
> 
> Most cheaters would not view cheating as abuse for sure. Some non-cheaters as well no doubt. It is a very arguable position though. It is an abuse of ones power for sure if not in an open marriage. It is abuse of trust. To betray anyone in this way is abusive IMO. Ask the BS if this is abusive?
> 
> ...


No I do not think it is a positive.
Good for a marriage? Probably not most of the time, but Possibly. If it brings to light all of the other problems and then as a result those things get fixed, then maybe. Some people need extreme circumstances to force them to change.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

gbrad said:


> I never said help hide, I said help them through a tough time. That is what friends do.
> 
> You also continue to state you feel that cheating is abuse. I am sorry you feel that way, but that is not the same way that everybody views. I think it is disrespectful to even put them in the same conversation.


I'm sorry but you have no concept whatsoever about how an A in a marriage can effect the BS. It's is mentally, physically and emotionally draining. It takes up every waking moment of every day, the pain is excruciating. That, my friend, is abuse! Abuse by the one person who promised to love and cherish you forever! It's absolutely devastating!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Even if it were a situation where the husband were cheating with my wife. I might talk to him, might even punch him in the face, but I wouldn't tell his wife. I don't know her feelings on it, what she knows and doesn't know, or doesn't want to know, because I don't know her. How she wants to handle the whole situation is up to her.


 Although I do not agree with your opinion on this, you had me giving your ideas on this a fair hearing right up until you said this. You would not tell the wife of the man f*cking your wife because you do not know what she knows nor how she wants to handle it? Although the good of telling her out weights the bad by far, cheaters use this false logic to explain why everyone needs to mind their own business and keep the cheated on spouse in the dark. What if she does not know? She would have a right to know, and by you not telling her you would be a part of the cover up.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Not telling a close friend or relative. Nothing ambiguous here. If you do not tell your friend about the affair you are being disloyal to them.
> 
> Ratting out? Who talks like that? Tattle tale?
> 
> ...


I am not trying to defend the cheater. I have stated in the past that I imagine having an affair and have wished at times I could. Given that, I did end up having a chance, but turned and ran away from it. I couldn't do it. I chose not to do it. 
Yes, cheating is wrong I said that. I don't understand how I am trivializing it?
You did twist my words when you said that I don't think cheating is wrong. I believe I am on record as having needed to say that multiple times. 
It is wrong. Yes, I have done many wrong things in my life. We all have, we are human. Just hopefully we don't do anything that is too harmful.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm sorry but you have no concept whatsoever about how an A in a marriage can effect the BS. It's is mentally, physically and emotionally draining. It takes up every waking moment of every day, the pain is excruciating. That, my friend, is abuse! Abuse by the one person who promised to love and cherish you forever! It's absolutely devastating!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have known and talked with other people who have dealt with an affair. They don't all view it the same way. Every person is different.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

TRy said:


> Although I do not agree with your opinion on this, you had me giving your ideas on this a fair hearing right up until you said this. You would not tell the wife of the man f*cking your wife because you do not know what she knows nor how she wants to handle it? Although the good of telling her out weights the bad by far, cheaters use this false logic to explain why everyone needs to mind their own business and keep the cheated on spouse in the dark. What if she does not know? She would have a right to know, and by you not telling her you would be a part of the cover up.


You are correct that she has the right to know. But I don't feel it would be my job or my right to tell her. 
My biggest issue would be with my wife and what I would need to deal with there. Not the people across the street.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I've noticed something. If someone says they will not expose a cheater they know, who would they expose? How would you know if a stranger is cheating?

Ex.: I have a neighbor who has had some young woman visiting on a regular basis. Many people know about it. Someone reported it. They talked to the woman. She told them she was giving him some home care for his health. This man has lived here for years, but he is a loner and keeps to himself. He is not rude, just quiet.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

So to be clear gbrad, if your spouse was having a serious affair for some time and your best friend knew you would :
A: rather not know about the affair and
B: wouldn't hold it against your friend for not telling you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> Helping them through it instead of acting like tattle tale at a school and just ratting someone out.


I'm not really sure at this point where this conversation can really go, OP. In your mind, cheating is wrong (or so you say) but should you report this "wrong" behavior you are a stool pigeon. Further, that you apparently pre-rank your friendships based on who is closer/less close to you to determine how much loyalty the person deserves. That sounds really complex. 

You feel cheating isn't hurtful or destructive, and that it happens "for a lot of different reasons." You are quick to point out that obviously when cheating does happens all people involved have some blame to bear. However - things aren't always that simple. Not every case is spouse didn't do X, Y, or Z therefore cheating. You might never indeed get the cheater to actually verbalize what it is that led to the cheating (they might not know themselves.)

What if for example, you knew a friend's husband was "on the downlow" and was having extra-martial hookups with other men? Should you tell her? What blame do you feel she had to play in her husband lying to her (and potentially himself) about his desire for homosexual sex? Is it okay for them to reconcile, and her never to know the truth about who he is and what he wants?


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

daisygirl 41 said:


> So to be clear gbrad, if your spouse was having a serious affair for some time and your best friend knew you would :
> A: rather not know about the affair and
> B: wouldn't hold it against your friend for not telling you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can I answer too?
A: If my husband would have an affair, I don’t expect my friends to expose it. If I don’t feel anything then I most likely would not believe. If I feel something wrong in my relations I would try to understand and correct it or just let him go and stay friends.
B: Certainly I never would hold it against my friends whatever they would do. It is not easy subject and I would understand whatever way they will choose to handle it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> So to be clear gbrad, if your spouse was having a serious affair for some time and your best friend knew you would :
> A: rather not know about the affair and
> B: wouldn't hold it against your friend for not telling you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gives the friend access to the wife through blackmail; is what it does.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

daisygirl 41 said:


> So to be clear gbrad, if your spouse was having a serious affair for some time and your best friend knew you would :
> A: rather not know about the affair and
> B: wouldn't hold it against your friend for not telling you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, seeing as that person in your scenario is MY best friend; they should be loyal to me. As for whether I would want them to tell me...
The reality is, I have gone back and forth on whether or not I really want to know. Sometimes I think I wouldn't want to know. Sometimes I think to myself that if my wife had an affair and the guilt got her to help out more at home and then our home life got better as a result, then I wouldn't want to know and I would just be happier things got better here at home. 
But overall, I really don't know. Luckily I have a wife who couldn't live with herself if she had an affair, so I am not worried about it.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Starstarfish said:


> I'm not really sure at this point where this conversation can really go, OP. In your mind, cheating is wrong (or so you say) but should you report this "wrong" behavior you are a stool pigeon. Further, that you apparently pre-rank your friendships based on who is closer/less close to you to determine how much loyalty the person deserves. That sounds really complex.
> *I don't mean it to be that complex, it is not as if I have them ranked somehow, it is just a feeling mostly*
> 
> You feel cheating isn't hurtful or destructive, and that it happens "for a lot of different reasons." You are quick to point out that obviously when cheating does happens all people involved have some blame to bear. However - things aren't always that simple. Not every case is spouse didn't do X, Y, or Z therefore cheating. You might never indeed get the cheater to actually verbalize what it is that led to the cheating (they might not know themselves.)
> ...


That last one though, yah, that is not an example that I have answer for. I think if put in that situation it would creep me out more than anything else.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Well, seeing as that person in your scenario is MY best friend; they should be loyal to me. As for whether I would want them to tell me...
> The reality is, I have gone back and forth on whether or not I really want to know. Sometimes I think I wouldn't want to know. Sometimes I think to myself that if my wife had an affair and the guilt got her to help out more at home and then our home life got better as a result, then I wouldn't want to know and I would just be happier things got better here at home.
> But overall, I really don't know. *Luckily I have a wife who couldn't live with herself if she had an affair, so I am not worried about it.*


Yea... I wasn't worried either. I mean, after all, my husband always, and I mean ALWAYS, maintained "flirting equals cheating". So, why would I even THINK he would ever cheat...be it emotional or physical? Why would a man who truly believed in his heart that even FLIRTING with someone other than his wife was wrong, cheat in any form? Don't get so ****y about what your wife would and would not do. It is complacency that says "oh, she will never do that." Don't be so sure that she wouldn't, given the "right" circumstances. Just because you (sort of) stopped your EA, recently, as it was beginning, doesn't mean she would stop. Especially if she has picked up on how much you DON'T want to be married to her. That all has the makings of potential affair. Not saying she WOULD succumb, but if she knew all of that, she would be vulnerable. I still wouldn't condone it though. It would still be wrong, and whether you agree or not... if I knew you, I would reveal it if I knew.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Sorry! But I would greatly see no other recourse other than to "out" the WW and OM, but I personally never could give any amount of creedence whatsoever to the possibility of reconciliation.

I'm sorry, but misery does love company. But that's largely my nature!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

My so-called friends helped do me in. You keep forgetting about that attraction. There is a fog and anything can happen and does. I have been there. 

Friends need sex too. If they can get it from your wife without you knowing, they've got something that will prevent them from ever being concerned with anything they do in front of you. 

Anything you say or do to them is forgiven. Believe me. They will be even better to you than they were; smiling all the way and you'll wonder why.......


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> Yea... I wasn't worried either. I mean, after all, my husband always, and I mean ALWAYS, maintained "flirting equals cheating". So, why would I even THINK he would ever cheat...be it emotional or physical? Why would a man who truly believed in his heart that even FLIRTING with someone other than his wife was wrong, cheat in any form? Don't get so ****y about what your wife would and would not do. It is complacency that says "oh, she will never do that." Don't be so sure that she wouldn't, given the "right" circumstances. Just because you (sort of) stopped your EA, recently, as it was beginning, doesn't mean she would stop. Especially if she has picked up on how much you DON'T want to be married to her. That all has the makings of potential affair. Not saying she WOULD succumb, but if she knew all of that, she would be vulnerable. I still wouldn't condone it though. It would still be wrong, and whether you agree or not... if I knew you, I would reveal it if I knew.


What if I knew you and I had told you that I didn't want to know in that situation. Would you still go against those wishes?


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> Sorry! But I would greatly see no other recourse other than to "out" the WW and OM, but I personally never could give any amount of creedence whatsoever to the possibility of reconciliation.
> 
> I'm sorry, but misery does love company. But that's largely my nature!


I guess that is your choice, but even if my wife were to have an affair, I still want her to be happy in life. I would never wish an ill will towards her. Even if we got divorced as a result of an affair on her part, I would want to know that she is doing well and happy.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

aahh how sweet.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

gbrad said:


> I am glad that worked out. Even though I don't feel it was necessarily your place, luckily it worked out.


It was absolutely my place. Both my husband and his MOW decided to interupt my marriage. I decided that if she did not respect her own marriage, why the hell should I. In all honesty the best thing that could happen was her BH telling me that they had an open marriage.

You, yourself said that if you were intimately involved it makes sense to expose. After that, only a handful know about the affair. A few close girlfriends of mine and the other BH. I did not expose him to the general public.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> What if I knew you and I had told you that I didn't want to know in that situation. Would you still go against those wishes?


You wouldn't want to know that your wife is cheating? Honestly? If I knew you and you said that to me, I'd call you an idiot. I've called my own sister an idiot or a moron when she went back to her cheating husband. If I would call my own sister, whom I love very much, that, do you really think I would hold back when talking to you? :scratchhead:

Let me put it this way... if you were my friend, and you made that wish known, I'd rather lose a friend for telling him the truth than to keep a friend and keep a lie a secret.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> You wouldn't want to know that your wife is cheating? Honestly? If I knew you and you said that to me, I'd call you an idiot. I've called my own sister an idiot or a moron when she went back to her cheating husband. If I would call my own sister, whom I love very much, that, do you really think I would hold back when talking to you? :scratchhead:
> 
> Let me put it this way... if you were my friend, and you made that wish known, I'd rather lose a friend for telling him the truth than to keep a friend and keep a lie a secret.


I said earlier I honestly don't know if I would want to know. But as a friend I don't see why that would be so hard to respect my wishes. 
Even given that, if you did tell me and I didn't actually have any proof or any reason to believe it from my own end, what difference would it make. Maybe out of guilt I could get my wife to do more here at home, that would benefit me. If she is getting something out of it, so should I.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

underwater2010 said:


> It was absolutely my place. Both my husband and his MOW decided to interupt my marriage. * I decided that if she did not respect her own marriage, why the hell should I.* In all honesty the best thing that could happen was her BH telling me that they had an open marriage.
> 
> You, yourself said that if you were intimately involved it makes sense to expose. After that, only a handful know about the affair. A few close girlfriends of mine and the other BH. I did not expose him to the general public.


Because 2 wrongs make a right? 
Yes if I was intimately involved, knowing the people, I would say something because I care about those people and I want to help them through it. Not because I am trying to simply expose it and end it. But because I overall care about them and would want to talk through it with them to help get things resolved.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Because 2 wrongs make a right?
> Yes if I was intimately involved, knowing the people, I would say something because I care about those people and I want to help them through it. Not because I am trying to simply expose it and end it. But because I overall care about them and would want to talk through it with them to help get things resolved.


I'm sorry... what? "2 wrongs don't make a right"? Really? So, it's ok, to keep the OW husband in the dark, while she is bringing God knows what home to him...because you don't think it's right to tell the husband that his wife f*cking another woman's husband. God, gbrad, I really hope you can stand on that soapbox forever. Because those of us who have actually been in the situation where infidelity has occurred can honestly say that mentality is horse sh!t. And I absolutely would expose to end. And if he didn't end it, then he would be GONE. Then again, he would be gone if he stuck his d!ck in someone else.


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## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

I think there is exposure and then there is over kill. I dont believe nor like exposing "everyone" not everyone will react the way you think they should/would. Exposure doesn't always work the way people want it to plus if the people having the affair in the first place are determined to stay together than they will, it just all depends on why you did it in the first place, what your expectations are, and what would you do if it doesn't play out the way you expected. Because in the truth the reason why a lot of BS do the exposure is because they think it will wake up the WS and rid the fantasy of the affair (to me it is bull****). Does exposure help? Sometimes not all the time I think it really is being honest with your self and it also depends on the situation.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Moving on folks ...

Me And Mrs Jones


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I went 13 years/WW had 20 OM/ and alway got mine. Anyway.

MY question is who did he stick his penis in 1st...sure I'm wired differentent then most, BUT mine went in 1st. Nevermind.

In gbrads mind set I went 13 years never ever having to suffer through adultory. Until I was educated and confessed to..only then did I look into it and educate my self.

So .....folks if you want to help a right then you can only hope your moral compase points in the direction that makes it right,

But if folks want to help no matter if its wrong or rigght then the moral compase points to were ever the hell they want it to point so phuck the moral compase its your call help a friend out!

Its sad that your friends friend is not nearly as valueable to help?

I never laughted so hard when I saw someone walk into a train...how stubid could they be....even that perssons boyfriend was my best friend. I cared for him as he mourned her death but we had a good laught as she walked into the train.

I think my best friend noticed her coming death 1st and pointed it out. I said " "should we tell her whats she walking into" and he sain " no she is smart enough to see it coming".

I felt bad bad for not warning her, but I don't feel bad for stopping her, she was a fool and my best friend was so heartbroken.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Its kind of like not telling someone there is danger and not doing something about it. Its wierd, don't you agree?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

the guy said:


> I went 13 years/WW had 20 OM/ and alway got mine. Anyway.
> 
> MY question is who did he stick his penis in 1st...sure I'm wired differentent then most, BUT mine went in 1st. Nevermind.
> 
> ...


The Guy, You are a very good person sir.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Isn't being betrayed by a loved one, in a sense a kind of emotional danager, and no matter who tells the betrayed it is a way of protecting someone....beit a complete stranger or your mom?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> The Guy, You are a very good person sir.


E3, don't start spreading that around, or me and you are going to have to have some words.

I have a reputation, I don't need to be labeled as a "nice guy"


It took me 3 years to convince my FWW I wasn't so don't go messing that up for me.:lol:

BTW...Thank you @ss wipe


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

the guy said:


> Isn't being betrayed by a loved one, in a sense a kind of emotional danager, and no matter who tells the betrayed it is a way of protecting someone....beit a complete stranger or your mom?


Yes it is an emotional danger. But I think it is different and personal. Not for the public to decide upon.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> I'm sorry... what? "2 wrongs don't make a right"? Really? So, it's ok, to keep the OW husband in the dark, while she is bringing God knows what home to him...because you don't think it's right to tell the husband that his wife f*cking another woman's husband. God, gbrad, I really hope you can stand on that soapbox forever. Because those of us who have actually been in the situation where infidelity has occurred can honestly say that mentality is horse sh!t. And I absolutely would expose to end. And if he didn't end it, then he would be GONE. Then again, he would be gone if he stuck his d!ck in someone else.


You and others have added the idea that something might be brought home. I don't know who out there has diseases and who doesn't. My hope is that the people who do can atleast be smart about that, but again I don't know. I'm not going to assume the worst though. 
Yes I said 2 wrongs don't make a right. If that applies in other scenarios in life, why wouldn't it apply here. 
Again you say expose to end the affair. I still believe an affair needs to end because the people want it to end. Whether that is because their spouse knows or not, the cheating spouse either needs to choose to leave their spouse or realize that the affair needs to end for the sake of the marriage. 
An affair (most of the time I am going with here) won't last forever. Eventually the person is going to need to decide even if they are not exposed.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

If it is private and personal ... then do not do it in public. Do not make it known to others. because once it is in peoples faces ... they are going to make it their business.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Yes it is an emotional danger. But I think it is different and personal. *Not for the public to decide upon.*


And, as far as I can tell, everyone who said "I'd expose" has said they would expose to the other spouse. Not one has said "I would spread it to anyone and everyone who will listen!"

You, yourself, said you would have a few very close friends you would talk to about such a thing. Wouldn't THAT be "for the public", not just "keeping it between the husband and wife"? Far more likely that keeping it among the spouses, all FOUR spouses, is much less public than telling your closest friends.... you know, people who are not intimately involved in the whole situation on ANY side of the equation.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> If it is private and personal ... then do not do it in public. Do not make it known to others. because once it is in peoples faces ... they are going to make it their business.


Telling a friend, to me, still keeps that private. I tell friends private things all the time. I trust they will keep it to themselves.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> You and others have added the idea that something might be brought home. I don't know who out there has diseases and who doesn't. My hope is that the people who do can atleast be smart about that, but again I don't know. I'm not going to assume the worst though.
> Yes I said 2 wrongs don't make a right. If that applies in other scenarios in life, why wouldn't it apply here.
> Again you say expose to end the affair. * I still believe an affair needs to end because the people want it to end.* Whether that is because their spouse knows or not, the cheating spouse either needs to choose to leave their spouse or realize that the affair needs to end for the sake of the marriage.
> An affair (most of the time I am going with here) won't last forever. Eventually the person is going to need to decide even if they are not exposed.


And if he doesn't want it to end, he can get the f*ck out of my house. End of discussion. I bring in STDs because when people are having affairs, they get careless. They are stupid. They don't always use protection. And, some STDs lie dormant for years. C'mon now, don't you remember sex ed in school? They taught this stuff! And when you are "in love" you have no cares in the world! Seriously, you can't be this.... slow!


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> You wouldn't want to know that your wife is cheating? Honestly? If I knew you and you said that to me, I'd call you an idiot.


Thank you, Maricha. And I believe you know why I'm thanking you.:ezpi_wink1:


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Telling a friend, to me, still keeps that private. I tell friends private things all the time. I trust they will keep it to themselves.


It's still none of their business. They aren't any of the parties involved in the affair. The AP's spouse IS a part of it, whether you wish to believe it or not. The AP's spouse has more right to know wtf is going on than your friend does.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> It's still none of their business. They aren't any of the parties involved in the affair. The AP's spouse IS a part of it, whether you wish to believe it or not. The AP's spouse has more right to know wtf is going on than your friend does.


To me it is like telling close friends about other portions of your marriage relationship. I have done this in the past and still do at times. To me, that is part of what friends are for. Discuss the details, compare notes, etc.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> And if he doesn't want it to end, he can get the f*ck out of my house. End of discussion. I bring in STDs because when people are having affairs, they get careless. They are stupid. They don't always use protection. And, some STDs lie dormant for years. C'mon now, don't you remember sex ed in school? They taught this stuff! And when you are "in love" you have no cares in the world! Seriously, you can't be this.... slow!


You are right, that can happen. A lot of things can happen and no I am not that slow, I just look at things differently.

As for the spouse getting out of your house, that is fine. Once you know about it you can give that ultimatum type of situation if you choose, if you don't know about it, the person still has room to try and figure it out. I have always felt that cheating is something I could forgive if the person is someone I loved and wanted to be with.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> To me it is like telling close friends about other portions of your marriage relationship. I have done this in the past and still do at times. To me, that is part of what friends are for. Discuss the details, compare notes, etc.


Here, let me put it this way. 

HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION:

If your wife was having an affair with my husband, I would deserve to know what was going on. I would deserve to know if YOU knew. YOU, if YOU were privy to that information, should tell ME because I won't put up with a man f*cking some OW behind my back. I would deserve to know wtf was going on... much more so than your friend would. I am intimately involved in the situation. Your friend is not. If you choose to confide in your friend about your "rough patch", so be it. I couldn't care less. But if your FRIEND knows something about it and I do NOT? That's bullsh!t. Give me the information. What I choose to do with it is up to me. But the obligation to inform me that my husband was f*cking your wife is on you. And if you were to keep that from me, that makes you NO BETTER than the lying cheaters themselves!


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> Here, let me put it this way.
> 
> HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION:
> 
> If your wife was having an affair with my husband, I would deserve to know what was going on. I would deserve to know if YOU knew. YOU, if YOU were privy to that information, should tell ME because I won't put up with a man f*cking some OW behind my back. I would deserve to know wtf was going on... much more so than your friend would. I am intimately involved in the situation. Your friend is not. If you choose to confide in your friend about your "rough patch", so be it. I couldn't care less. But if your FRIEND knows something about it and I do NOT? That's bullsh!t. Give me the information. What I choose to do with it is up to me. But the obligation to inform me that my husband was f*cking your wife is on you. And if you were to keep that from me, that makes you NO BETTER than the lying cheaters themselves!


Well, at this point yes I would tell you, because you have said that you would want me to. But that doesn't mean that you should for sure tell me. I don't know if I would want to know or not. Since I don't even know at this point, why should you be the one who decides if I get to know or not? That is the point on my side I am trying to make. You might think I am stupid for not deciding or not wanting to know, but that is my right isnt it?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> You are right, that can happen. A lot of things can happen and no I am not that slow, I just look at things differently.
> 
> As for the spouse getting out of your house, that is fine. Once you know about it you can give that ultimatum type of situation if you choose, if you don't know about it, the person still has room to try and figure it out. *I have always felt that cheating is something I could forgive if the person is someone I loved and wanted to be with.*


I thought I could never forgive cheating...ever. And yet, I was forgiven for EAs and I forgave for EA. PA.. no. the thought of another woman touching my husband in that manner makes me physically ill. And there is nothing to decide. If my husband screws around on me, I deserve to know. Period. It doesn't matter if he "thinks about it" and "figures it out". I deserve to be able to make an informed decision, with ALL the facts, not just half of them because someone decides it's ok to keep me in the dark.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Well, at this point yes I would tell you, because you have said that you would want me to. But that doesn't mean that you should for sure tell me. I don't know if I would want to know or not. Since I don't even know at this point, why should you be the one who decides if I get to know or not? That is the point on my side I am trying to make. You might think I am stupid for not deciding or not wanting to know, but that is my right isnt it?


It is your right to bury your head in the sand if you choose. But it is also my right to inform you if I choose. Sorry, we're just not going to agree on this one. No way would I let a cheater get a free pass like that. No way.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I thought I could never forgive cheating...ever. And yet, I was forgiven for EAs and I forgave for EA. PA.. no. the thought of another woman touching my husband in that manner makes me physically ill. And there is nothing to decide. If my husband screws around on me, I deserve to know. Period. It doesn't matter if he "thinks about it" and "figures it out". I deserve to be able to make an informed decision, with ALL the facts, not just half of them because someone decides it's ok to keep me in the dark.


People are different. I can forgive PA if I love the person. Actually for me it is not about forgiveness. It is about what he really wants. Does he really want me? If he prefer other woman, doesn’t matter EA or PA, I will forgive and let him go and stay his friend. The only question is – Does he really want me? If not, no problem I still will be his friend I just wouldn’t be his sexual partner. If he even doesn’t tell me about his EA then I shouldn’t worry before he really will decide what to do.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> I thought I could never forgive cheating...ever. And yet, I was forgiven for EAs and I forgave for EA. PA.. no. the thought of another woman touching my husband in that manner makes me physically ill. And there is nothing to decide. If my husband screws around on me, I deserve to know. Period. It doesn't matter if he "thinks about it" and "figures it out". I deserve to be able to make an informed decision, with ALL the facts, not just half of them because someone decides it's ok to keep me in the dark.


Just out of curiousity, were you or your husband with anyone sexually before you met each other?


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> It is your right to bury your head in the sand if you choose. But it is also my right to inform you if I choose. Sorry, we're just not going to agree on this one. No way would I let a cheater get a free pass like that. No way.


So even though I am saying it is my choice if I did not want to know, you wouldn't care about that and couldn't respect that. Why is it your right to inform me if I don't want to be? If I am okay with not knowing (I am not saying that I am, honestly I don't know) why do you think you have that right to make up my own mind for me?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Telling a friend, to me, still keeps that private. I tell friends private things all the time. I trust they will keep it to themselves.


Trust. But a cheater cannot be trusted ...

Better keep an eye open for them. Any person who would betray the person they vowed to be faithful to is not someone to trust.

Honor among thieves? LOL. I know you are just having fun with the TAM folks because you can't be serious.

Heard It Through The Grapevine

Take It On The Run


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Trust. But a cheater cannot be trusted ...
> 
> Better keep an eye open for them. Any person who would betray the person they vowed to be faithful to is not someone to trust.
> 
> ...


I am not trying to have fun with anyone here. Yes I am serious. You quoted the post where I said I tell my friends private things. We talk about marriages and our lives, when I tell them those things and they tell me things, we expect each other to keep it just between us. 
Yes, trust a cheater. Just because someone does one wrong things, it doesn't make them wrong in everything they do.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Just out of curiousity, were you or your husband with anyone sexually before you met each other?


What difference does it make whether or not we were with anyone else sexually before we met? It has nothing to do with this discussion. There are plenty of people who were sexually active before meeting their spouses who agree with my position. And there are many who were NOT sexually active who agree as well. My sex life, or possible lack thereof, has nothing to do with my position on this subject. So I would like to know what you are implying with that question.



gbrad said:


> So even though I am saying it is my choice if I did not want to know, you wouldn't care about that and couldn't respect that. Why is it your right to inform me if I don't want to be? If I am okay with not knowing (I am not saying that I am, honestly I don't know) why do you think you have that right to make up my own mind for me?


You, yourself, have admitted that you do not know. Regardless, this isn't about you not wanting to know. It is about your spouse being accountable. What you do with the information afterward is up to you. But yes, I would absolutely reveal what I know.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I think a basic flaw in this argument is this assumption that affairs are often secret only between the people involved. They rarely are. People suspect stuff - people notice when people leave work early, when they make strange phone calls, when they stand too close to a co-worker, when they touch their arm when they are talking. So even if people don't "know" they might suspect something. So - it might already be out there as an "open secret" in the public sphere - a lot more people may know than you ever may realize. So even if they respect your wishes to remain ignorant of the situation, that doesn't mean they are all going to collectively forget. 

And in that case - what are people going to assume? You have a cuckold fantasy - that you like it? That perhaps you are cheating as well? Few people are going to understand this crippling ennui of "I just don't care if she's cheating."


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

They never forget. Until the world changes drastically, you lose face. You lose every bit of integrity you gained over your whole life and it's all because they think you knew.

In the mean time, if you do know and an argument can be made that you do, you are a cuckold. Who wants to be in a marriage and be legally responsible for so much of your spouse and then share her with whomever. You do that when your single without all the responsibility. You can do whatever you want. What's the point of marriage if you are not faithful? And now I've gotten into a statement I made in another thread.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

gbrad said:


> I am not trying to have fun with anyone here. Yes I am serious. You quoted the post where I said I tell my friends private things. We talk about marriages and our lives, when I tell them those things and they tell me things, we expect each other to keep it just between us.
> Yes, trust a cheater. *Just because someone does one wrong things, it doesn't make them wrong in everything they do.*


Considering every one of us in this world has done "wrong things", I think you are spot on. Maybe some people think that they are saints?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> I am not trying to have fun with anyone here. Yes I am serious. You quoted the post where I said I tell my friends private things. We talk about marriages and our lives, when I tell them those things and they tell me things, we expect each other to keep it just between us.
> Yes, trust a cheater. Just because someone does one wrong things, it doesn't make them wrong in everything they do.


Sigh... I'm not going to automatically assume that because someone has screwed around on their spouse that it automatically means they will steal from the company nor that they will shoplift. But I would question whether I could trust them with my deepest, darkest secrets (no, I don't have any of those, just using it as an example). If the one person who was supposed to be able to trust him or her implicitly cannot, how can I? And yes, I absolutely would apply this logic to myself. If my husband were to say "I cannot trust you", then I would expect that even my own friends would have trouble doing so. 

And, it has nothing to do with being a saint. 
I am far from one. But I won't hold someone else to standards I don't believe in applying to myself.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Sigh... I'm not going to automatically assume that because someone has screwed around on their spouse that it automatically means they will steal from the company nor that they will shoplift. But I would question whether I could trust them with my deepest, darkest secrets (no, I don't have any of those, just using it as an example). If the one person who was supposed to be able to trust him or her implicitly cannot, how can I? And yes, I absolutely would apply this logic to myself. If my husband were to say "I cannot trust you", then I would expect that even my own friends would have trouble doing so.
> 
> And, it has nothing to do with being a saint.
> I am far from one. *But I won't hold someone else to standards I don't believe in applying to myself[*/U].




Maricha, if you are saying that these people cannot be trusted, does that mean that you cannot?

I have a friend that has cheated on every man that she has ever been with, she comes to me for advice all the time. MY advice to her, is to get out of the relationship BEFORE she decides to cheat, to go to counseling and figure out WHY she cheats, and do not get into another relationship until she is happy with herself. But through all of this...it is not my job to play God and convict her.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Perhaps not, Anony2 - but at the same time, you'd be unlikely to introduce her to a close friend or brother of yours, knowing her pattern of behavior. There's a difference between playing God and holding someone accountable for their behavior. 

I really don't think this all of this "don't play God" and "don't judge" and "let people do what they want" attitude is really doing us any favors. All it is encouraging is a selfish "me dominated" society in which loyalty and promises mean nothing beyond temporary pleasure. I think if people were still under the potential of heavy social scrutiny for cheating (think about Anna Karenina) - it wouldn't be happening as often. If people knew others would tell on them, I think it might encourage them to think twice. 

But, look at the responses you get on these forums. She's gained ten pounds - dump her, life is too short. He's not talking as much as he used to - leave him, life is too short. It's all about what you can get out of something now, about what it is in it for -you.- And hence the cheating - you can enjoy something right now, damn the consequences. Well - assuming there are any.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

anony2 said:


> Maricha, if you are saying that these people cannot be trusted, does that mean that you cannot?


Anony2, you DID read ALL of my post, right? 



Maricha75 said:


> But I won't hold someone else to standards I don't believe in applying to myself.


My answer was given BEFORE the part you chose to highlight:



Maricha75 said:


> If the one person who was supposed to be able to trust him or her implicitly cannot, how can I? And yes, I absolutely would apply this logic to myself. *If my husband were to say "I cannot trust you", then I would expect that even my own friends would have trouble doing so.*


Can someone REGAIN that trust? Absolutely. But it's not given automatically. Not to me, not to my husband, and not to a friend. It has to be EARNED back. And it takes time.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

At least state in the US recognises some of the problems that come with straying spouses.

that is if you buy property in this State (I won't say which one) and you're married, then you must show signed acknowledgement from your spouse. And no matter who you say owns it, the spouse will always be +1.

I know this because my sister lives in that state.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Yes, trust a cheater. Just because someone does one wrong things, it doesn't make them wrong in everything they do.


An affair is not one wrong thing. It is a whole series of wrong things.

It also means that their word has no meaning. They will break it when it is convenient. That a "friend" has not broken his word to you just means it is not convenient yet.

I would not counsel you to drop a friend the moment that he told you he had an affair. I have a friend now that I have learned had an affair (technically still is, though he and his wife are separated and will be divorcing). I have counseled him not to where I can. He has not. Because of this, it has affected our friendship. I don't trust him and so no reason to do so in the future. I expect that absent him changing his ways, our friendship will slowly die away.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Anony2, you DID read ALL of my post, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But you aren't holding yourself to that standard and that is my point. You above all should be able to understand this, seeing as how you did it yourself. Should none of us accept any of your posts as truth because you cheated? When can WE know when you have earned back that trust with your husband? By you telling us...? But you cheated, so then you cannot be trusted. 

See how that is a vicious circle? Who is to say that everyone OUTSIDE of that vow that you made to your husband should be included in it? 

That is why I do not judge my girlfriend that cheats. She didn't make the vow to me, she made it to her husband. 

I do have established boundaries though. I do not allow her to use me as an alibi for her cheating. But I am a shoulder for her to cry on, a friend to laugh with and someone who will support her when she doesn't have any where else to turn. 

The funny thing about this or maybe I should say IRONIC thing is that she desires to be monogamous with her spouse, but she has absolutely no ability to be monogamous. I do understand why that is. She was raised with both of her parents cheating on each other using the her and her siblings as pawns/alibi's, and she was molested by her step father, step brother, and a few other close people in the family and her parents supplied her with drugs and alcohol at the age of 10 on. So she has no self esteem and she is most likely BPD. 

Who am I to fault her on that and what type of friend would I be to turn her away? 

Would I introduce her to my brother? I sure would because he has similar problems and maybe they would be similar enough to help each other get the counseling they desperately need.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> And if he doesn't want it to end, he can get the f*ck out of my house. End of discussion. I bring in STDs because when people are having affairs, they get careless. They are stupid. They don't always use protection. And, some STDs lie dormant for years. C'mon now, don't you remember sex ed in school? They taught this stuff! And when you are "in love" you have no cares in the world! Seriously, you can't be this.... slow!


Or in my case the AP cannot even be honest about what they are carrying. Yes she brought up using condoms, but they don't prevent everything. In fact genital warts don't just exist on the penis or in the hoha. And that is what she carried. I had a sense from the emails that she was not new to this game and I was right. I told her husband because I did not want him to end up with something either. Not from my husband because we are still "clean" but from some other person.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Perhaps not, Anony2 - but at the same time, you'd be unlikely to introduce her to a close friend or brother of yours, knowing her pattern of behavior. There's a difference between playing God and holding someone accountable for their behavior.
> 
> I really don't think this all of this "don't play God" and "don't judge" and "let people do what they want" attitude is really doing us any favors. All it is encouraging is a selfish "me dominated" society in which loyalty and promises mean nothing beyond temporary pleasure. I think if people were still under the potential of heavy social scrutiny for cheating (think about Anna Karenina) - it wouldn't be happening as often. If people knew others would tell on them, I think it might encourage them to think twice.
> 
> But, look at the responses you get on these forums. She's gained ten pounds - dump her, life is too short. He's not talking as much as he used to - leave him, life is too short. It's all about what you can get out of something now, about what it is in it for -you.- And hence the cheating - you can enjoy something right now, damn the consequences. Well - assuming there are any.


Who am I to hold her accountable for cheating? Her husband knows she cheated, she told him, he stayed with her and then cheated himself and on top of that, now he has a baby by another woman whom he cheated with. Now my friend says cannot live with knowing he did this. I told her that if she wanted a man that was not a cheater that she needs to not be a cheater herself. 

You know I do understand your 3rd paragraph though, the grass is not greener in other pastures and that is what I am trying to teach my friend. She is going to have the same problem repeatedly until she deals with it in herself.

Dr. Phil has a saying: you make a choice and live with it or live with the choice that you made which I think is excellent advice for most married people.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

anony2 said:


> But you aren't holding yourself to that standard and that is my point. You above all should be able to understand this, seeing as how you did it yourself. Should none of us accept any of your posts as truth because you cheated? When can WE know when you have earned back that trust with your husband? By you telling us...? But you cheated, so then you cannot be trusted.
> 
> See how that is a vicious circle? Who is to say that everyone OUTSIDE of that vow that you made to your husband should be included in it?


You don't have to believe me. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything. And really, as far as that is concerned, the only ones who need to believe whether I tell the truth or not are my husband, my family, my friends...basically, the people who know me. And if I choose to not be friends with someone because they are cheating, it is my choice. You choose to be friends with a cheater, that's your choice. So how does this make it a vicious circle? Because I don't think the risk is worth it FOR ME? 



anony2 said:


> That is why I do not judge my girlfriend that cheats. She didn't make the vow to me, she made it to her husband.
> 
> I do have established boundaries though. I do not allow her to use me as an alibi for her cheating. But I am a shoulder for her to cry on, a friend to laugh with and someone who will support her when she doesn't have any where else to turn.
> 
> ...


That is your choice to do so. At least in part, you understand where she is coming from. I don't. And that is why I would be unable to continue being friends with someone who is cheating. I was friends with a cheater. Now I am not. I have seen firsthand how easily someone CAN be swayed when hanging out with a cheater. I have no desire to go down that road again. Therefore, if I learn a friend is cheating, I distance myself. If they ask why, I don't hold back. Now, I WILL make one allowance. If a friend cheated IN THE PAST, I don't cut them out. If they prove to be trustworthy, I remain friends with them.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> And if I choose to not be friends with someone because they are cheating, it is my choice. You choose to be friends with a cheater, that's your choice. So how does this make it a vicious circle? Because I don't think the risk is worth it FOR ME?
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, if I learn a friend is cheating, I distance myself. If they ask why, I don't hold back.



Greatly makes me give due consideration to the fact that all, if not the overwhelming majority, of my STBXW's friends are all either married, encumbered, or are engaged in committed relationships; the lone exception being her OM whom she is entering at least the third year of her relationship with him despite our divorce not having yet been finalized.

Given that, it led me to ponder these questions:


How would the physical presence of STBXW's seemingly new "affair partner beau," escorting her around with her friends, all while the divorce itself is nowhere even close to any degree of comsummation: how then would you think that it would make them feel, knowing full well that she is married to another man, in actuality her legitimate husband, who in most cases remains to this day to have a "non-present" friendship with most of them as well?
Would having such a "social relationship" with STBXW, in any way, foster any degree of thought or encouragement in trying or experimenting themselves with entering into a similar adulterous relationship? 
 Would you suspect that there is any remote possibility that any one of them, at some prior point in time, may have actually engaged in this activity themselves, thus giving STBXW the needed encouragement to try it for herself?
 Provided that she is OK with "his presence" around her "acceptant" friends, would it then be, in any way, unusual for her to also try to bring him around her family, or perhaps certain "sympathetic" family members during the divorce process, or would this likely just be "kept underground" from all of them until such time that her divorce reaches some latent degree of finalization?


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> You don't have to believe me. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything. And really, as far as that is concerned, the only ones who need to believe whether I tell the truth or not are my husband, my family, my friends...basically, the people who know me. And if I choose to not be friends with someone because they are cheating, it is my choice. You choose to be friends with a cheater, that's your choice. So how does this make it a vicious circle? Because I don't think the risk is worth it FOR ME?


How can they believe you when you were a cheater? The vicious circle is that WE would never know when to start believing you when it is your HUSBAND that determines when you could be trustworthy again and he isn't here to tell us that, so we can only go by YOUR word...which we cannot accept because you were a cheater. 


That is...if all of us thought the way that you do. 




Maricha75 said:


> That is your choice to do so. At least in part, you understand where she is coming from. I don't. And that is why I would be unable to continue being friends with someone who is cheating. I was friends with a cheater. Now I am not. I have seen firsthand how easily someone CAN be swayed when hanging out with a cheater. I have no desire to go down that road again. Therefore, if I learn a friend is cheating, I distance myself. If they ask why, I don't hold back. Now, I WILL make one allowance. If a friend cheated IN THE PAST, I don't cut them out. If they prove to be trustworthy, I remain friends with them.


Maybe the difference is that my cheater friend doesn't attempt to sway me or that I am strong enough not to let her sway me. If you have no desire to go down that road again, then you should be strong enough not to be swayed also, if not then the problem is WITHIN YOU, not what your friend does or does not attempt to sway you to do. 

If everyone shuns people who do "wrong" (which is subjective), who is left to teach them to do "right"(which is also subjective)?

"Banning / Ignoring / Silent Treatment / Shunning
An abuser may use banishment behavior to punish the victim. Shunning behavior includes ignoring, refusing to speak, refusing to listen, not keeping promises, and pretending the victim isn't even there. *It is important to note that this behavior isn't done to protect the abuser from the victim; it's done to manipulate the victim*."


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

anony2 said:


> How can they believe you when you were a cheater? The vicious circle is that WE would never know when to start believing you when it is your HUSBAND that determines when you could be trustworthy again and he isn't here to tell us that, so we can only go by YOUR word...which we cannot accept because you were a cheater.
> 
> 
> That is...if all of us thought the way that you do.


And, again. No one is telling you that you have to believe me. It is your choice whether to do it or not. My husband has the choice to come on here and tell you if I am trustworthy or not. But then... would you believe that it is him? You are the one who chooses who and what you believe. It's you who chooses who is trustworthy to you. What is it to me if you don't believe or trust me? 






anony2 said:


> Maybe the difference is that my cheater friend doesn't attempt to sway me or that I am strong enough not to let her sway me. If you have no desire to go down that road again, then you should be strong enough not to be swayed also, if not then the problem is WITHIN YOU, not what your friend does or does not attempt to sway you to do.
> 
> If everyone shuns people who do "wrong" (which is subjective), who is left to teach them to do "right"(which is also subjective)?
> 
> ...


I have no desire to go down that road again, so why would I even put myself in the position that I could be tempted to do so? What difference does it make to you who I do or do not associate with?

So now I am abusive because I choose NOT to associate with someone while they are cheating? Really? I am manipulating people into not cheating on their spouses by saying I won't be their friend anymore? Yea, that makes sense.  My friends know there are certain things I won't associate myself with. This is one of them. They don't have a problem with that. So why does it bother YOU what I choose?

You don't have to believe me. You don't have to agree. You want to be friends with someone who actively cheats... repeatedly... go for it. I won't do it. And that is my choice.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> And, again. No one is telling you that you have to believe me. It is your choice whether to do it or not. My husband has the choice to come on here and tell you if I am trustworthy or not. But then... would you believe that it is him? You are the one who chooses who and what you believe. It's you who chooses who is trustworthy to you. What is it to me if you don't believe or trust me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, if you are tempted to cheat, then you are tempted to do so whether you are around a friend that is cheating or not. The problem is within YOU, not your friend. For instance, if an alcoholic cannot be around a tavern because there are people there drinking...the problem is with the alcoholic, not the tavern or the people inside drinking. 

I never said that you are manipulating your friend into not cheating, I did show you what SHUNNING is though. I know that is a common thing for people in your religious beliefs to do, but it helps NO ONE. 

I just hope if you decide to cheat again that you have a friend there that can talk some sense into you instead of shunning you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

anony2 said:


> Again, if you are tempted to cheat, then you are tempted to do so whether you are around a friend that is cheating or not. The problem is within YOU, not your friend. For instance, if an alcoholic cannot be around a tavern because there are people there drinking...the problem is with the alcoholic, not the tavern or the people inside drinking.
> 
> I never said that you are manipulating your friend into not cheating, I did show you what SHUNNING is though. I know that is a common thing for people in your religious beliefs to do, but it helps NO ONE.


I will jump in and disagree. A world of no judgment is no responsibility. What you call shunning I call chosing not to accept. To say otherwise is to require me to accept abusers, drug users, liers, thieves and killers, because to do otherwise is to shun them. 



> I just hope if you decide to cheat again that you have a friend there that can talk some sense into you instead of shunning you.


I don't read her to say that. I do read her to say that if a friend went ahead and cheated after she counseled them not to, their friendship would end.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

anony2 said:


> Again, if you are tempted to cheat, then you are tempted to do so whether you are around a friend that is cheating or not. The problem is within YOU, not your friend. For instance, if an alcoholic cannot be around a tavern because there are people there drinking...the problem is with the alcoholic, not the tavern or the people inside drinking.


And...what does the alcoholic do? He avoids that which would even potentially tempt him. If someone is drinking, he removes himself from it. 



anony2 said:


> I never said that you are manipulating your friend into not cheating, I did show you what SHUNNING is though. I know that is a common thing for people in your religious beliefs to do, but it helps NO ONE.


I am positive that I did say I would give a friend the opportunity to stop, to come clean. If the friend has no intention of giving up the lover nor ending the marriage, I cannot continue in a friendship with someone who continuously lies to their spouse. 

Regarding the religion, there have been others in this thread who have said things similar to what I have, and they are not all Christians, I believe. So, why me? Why pick apart my posts and then throw out the implication that it is prejudice due to my religious beliefs? I can handle being around people who HAVE cheated. My only issue is people who continue to do so, and have no intention of stopping. 



anony2 said:


> I just hope if you decide to cheat again that you have a friend there that can talk some sense into you instead of shunning you.


Well, see, there's the thing. I never once said "OMG! I can't be your friend because you cheat!" No, I said I would give them the CHANCE. Yet, even while giving the chance to stop, I would distance myself. It isn't an immediate thing. Really, I don't understand why it matters to YOU what I do regarding my friends.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

I am not religious moreover I am not Christian but there is a statement in the Bible that makes sense to me – “Don’t do to the people what you don’t want to be done to you”. Do I want my husband to cheat on me? Well… Basically I don’t want someone to break my heart. I didn’t want my bf that I was madly in love and that was showing and telling me that he loved me back dearly to marry another woman. It could hurts more than a divorce between those spouses that don’t have the intense feelings any more. I don’t want my spouse or other people do me any harm, like stealing from me, like framing me in a crime that I never committed. And I will never do it to other people. Even to a spouse that cheated on me. But there is not only black and white for me. It is not like after marriage it is a different story. It is all the same. We should be careful with other people’s feelings. It looks to me that so many people don’t really care about feelings they care about “what is a right thing to do”. And who said it right thing to do? Basically it is you decided, but did you ask other people that are involved, those that you consider victims, I know you don’t care about abusers. There are a lot of people here supposed to be recovering after their spouse’s affair. I don’t see recovering here. “N years of my marriage down the drain… - Yea, you should make the bastard to pay for that!!!” - is not recovering. Recovering is appreciating what a wonderful N years you had, forgiving and doing what would be good for both of you. Recovering means to see the world in the positive way, to be able to get back your trust in people. Actually you remind me myself then I was a teenager, speaking about been mature LOL. I was afraid what if people lie to me. And then I realize that it doesn’t matter. What is the difference if he lies or if he honestly making a mistake? That is why I never question, I accept anything people tell me. I believe that what they say is the truth at the best of their knowledge but nobody has an absolute knowledge. So anyway I should be prepared to the worse and it is not the people’s fault. They don’t lie they just doesn’t have correct information themselves, in particularly they don’t have a correct information about their own feelings.
Well… sometimes people lie intentionally to have a profit from it. I don’t approve this. But if people don’t tell the truth because they worry about somebody’s feelings I understand it.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> And...what does the alcoholic do? He avoids that which would even potentially tempt him. If someone is drinking, he removes himself from it.


He removes himself from the alcohol because HE is tempted to drink, thus why when he is going to rehab, they do not have him bring the bar and the people in it to get rehab with him. That says more about you than your friend who has cheated. 



Maricha75 said:


> *I am positive that I did say I would give a friend the opportunity to stop, to come clean. If the friend has no intention of giving up the lover nor ending the marriage, I cannot continue in a friendship with someone who continuously lies to their spouse.*
> 
> Regarding the religion, there have been others in this thread who have said things similar to what I have, and they are not all Christians, I believe. So, why me? Why pick apart my posts and then throw out the implication that it is prejudice due to my religious beliefs? I can handle being around people who HAVE cheated. My only issue is people who continue to do so, and have no intention of stopping.
> 
> ...


Which is no different than saying, "I am going to shun you UNLESS you do what I say"...end of. 

I do not know of any other religion besides the Abrahamic religion that practices shunning people for their wrongdoings...I didn't "pick out your post" I gave an opinion on something that was being said in this thread. YOU are not a victim Maricha any more than anyone that has a difference of opinion from anyone else.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

anony2 said:


> He removes himself from the alcohol because HE is tempted to drink, thus why when he is going to rehab, *they do not have him bring the bar and the people in it to get rehab with him.* That says more about you than your friend who has cheated.


 
Sigh... Anony, you just stated the same thing I did, in different words. I said I don't want the temptation, thus I won't be around it. How much clearer does it have to be?




anony2 said:


> Which is no different than saying, "I am going to shun you UNLESS you do what I say"...end of.


No, it is saying I do not wish to be in an awkward position FOR ME. You are free to do whatever you wish... I just want no part of it.



anony2 said:


> I do not know of any other religion besides the Abrahamic religion that practices shunning people for their wrongdoings...I didn't "pick out your post" I gave an opinion on something that was being said in this thread. YOU are not a victim Maricha any more than anyone that has a difference of opinion from anyone else.


I didn't say it was any other religion, anony. I said others have posted on here, saying the same things I have, but they are, as far as I know, not Christians. Meaning, this "I won't be friends with someone actively cheating, with no desire to end either relationship" isn't strictly confined to Christians. 

And yes, you did pick out my posts. Perhaps because I'm the only one, it seems, who actually engages you in these things. Whatever it is, I am done arguing with you. We have gone over various points on similar subjects on other threads and got nowhere with them. Why I continue even trying, I really don't know. 

You continue as a friend to a cheater. That is your choice. I won't attempt to change your mind on that. At the same time, you cannot change my mind on the subject. What works for you will not work for me. What works for me won't work for you. I am not saying you have to change your POV, nor am I saying you are wrong. So why am I wrong for believing as I do? :scratchhead:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

anony2 said:


> Considering every one of us in this world has done "wrong things", I think you are spot on. Maybe some people think that they are saints?


I surround myself with quality people and cut loose those that have lower character. Life is a living journey. You cut loose cheaters who continue to cheat even when you call them on it. It is one thing to cheat and realize you were wrong. It is another to expect your friends to be complict with your cheating.

People who continually do wrong things are not people worth having in your life. They pull themselves and everyone around them down.

People who make poor choice sbut make an effort to do the right thing and admit they are wrong are worth supporting.

This also assumes a respect for monogamous marriage. Not the progressive love stuff.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> I surround myself with quality people and cut loose those that have lower character. Life is a living journey. You cut loose cheaters who continue to cheat even when you call them on it. It is one thing to cheat and realize you were wrong. It is another to expect your friends to be complict with your cheating.
> 
> People who continually do wrong things are not people worth having in your life. They pull themselves and everyone around them down.
> 
> ...


what about forgiveness?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

gbrad said:


> what about forgiveness?


Did you miss where he said "people who CONTINUALLY do" these things? Besides that, I have learned that you can forgive someone, but it doesn't mean you have to keep them in your life.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

gbrad said:


> what about forgiveness?


Asking for forgiveness while still doing the bad thing is meaningless.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> what about forgiveness?


I forgive you. But that does not mean I trust you. Different things.

I can also understand someones actions. But that is not the same as forgiving them. It is not the same as trusting them.

You can be forgiven and yet be held accountable. 

Trust is given ... or not.

Forgiveness is given or not.

No one is owed any of this.

You must earn it. By your actions.

Here is one for you ... "To much is given ... much is expected"


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## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

If I knew someone cheated on someone else and it has happened. I would not stop being their friend I do agree with you on that annoy. I would warn them yes and if they still decided to do that and got caught then they have to suffer the consequences.How I look at it is Ye without sin cast the first stone. No one is perfect everyone falls short, but each person has his/her own limit in what they want to deal with.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

So if you are cheating on a dear friend of mine or a close relative ... you better duck. I ride a pale horse and hell is following with me. 



> And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, & his name that sat on him was Death, and hell followed with him: and power was given unto them, over the fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, & with hunger, and with death, and with the beastes of the earth.


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## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

Um ok....


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The point is that one can quote scripture or anything else.

But the thing is that to expect to not be held accountable is at the risk of the cheater. 

People have their own values and should.
However it is one thing to say I would not expose a cheater even to a dear friend or a close relative. 

But that is not what is being said. It is saying people who expose are somehow wrong. See the difference?

There are those of us who have our values and will not be complicit with cheaters. 

There are those who will.

This is fine. 

I say let the person who has sinned, repented and learned from their past cast the first stone for they are both knowing and compassionate. We call this being tried by our peers. There is some synergy to this.

Also if we are going to quote scripture there is this whole adultry thing. And lying thing. Then there was Onan but that is another thread. For those who don't know Conan and Onan are different personas.

Such a stern agenda to defend cheaters ... on a marriage site no less.

And now turning to our hymnals Peace Up 24:7


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

First, a culture does not need to be Christian to practice shunning - look up what the actual history of the world ostracism is. 

Ostracism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or - they could just pass down a sentence for you to commit ritual suicide so that they don't have to bother with you anymore. That happened as well. And - in many more ancient cultures, including Ancient Greece or Rome, married women caught in adultery often could severe legally and social punishment. As much as you might to imagine that this is part of some "Christian conspiracy" to impose morals, this is a long standing tradition of Western society. 

Also, I'll apologize, Maricha, that you seemed to suffer the wrath intended for some of the rest of us. I quoted the tale of the Good Samaritan some pages back, and that didn't seem to encourage the religious flack subsequent comments have, who knows why. 

As much as we want to imagine we live in a moral relativist society we do not - whether that is based on religion or purely a desire to not see society dissolve into absolute chaos - we have decided many things are "wrong" - including murder, stealing, lying to the authorities, etc. You can rectify that to yourself as you please, that "you don't know all their circumstances" and "you aren't in a place to judge them." But, the law will disagree with you. 

Now, some things have mostly moved out of the legal sphere - adultery, is no longer a widely pursued crime. It has moved into the sphere of social crimes. Whether or not there is a "right" or "wrong" answer will depend on who you ask. A religious answer certainly will say there is only one answer. I'm not arguing that. I've never said, nor has anyone else that you have to see adultery/cheating as wrong. However, we do. 

Which, at this point, this seems to have just turned into a brow bashing how if we have any kind of moral standards, we obviously aren't real friends, and are just judgmental. However - is it not my choice to choose my friendships based on any qualities I choose? And for me, I want to choose friends who I feel are in line with my own personal social and moral leanings. Sometimes, I like to add a firebrand to the mix, but again, that's my choice. 

And no - not being friends with a cheater when you have been affected by cheating isn't like asking others to close down the tavern. It's like no longer being friends with your drug dealer or the guys you used to get high with. You know they are up to no good, you are aware they are a potentially bad influence on you. Go read all the GNO threads about how anti-marriage/cheating friends can greatly affect your own outlook on marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Starstarfish said:


> First, a culture does not need to be Christian to practice shunning - look up what the actual history of the world ostracism is.
> 
> Ostracism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


Bravo. Nicely said. This is not for many of us anyway about religion at all.

And I think it important to note that in my case I was the one who was wrong. My true friends called me on it. My wife confronted me. I did not believe them but I had faith in my friends and my wife to trust them that I was in the wrong. And they were right. So exposing someone who is in an affair is not just for the benefit of the BS.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> Bravo. Nicely said. This is not for many of us anyway about religion at all.
> 
> And I think it important to note that in my case I was the one who was wrong. My true friends called me on it. My wife confronted me. I did not believe them but I had faith in my friends and my wife to trust them that I was in the wrong. And they were right. So exposing someone who is in an affair is not just for the benefit of the BS.


You really sound like an alcoholic at AA meeting now.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hekati said:


> You really sound like an alcoholic at AA meeting now.


Affairs are an addiction. They involve the same brain chemicals as cocain addiction. Are you just picking up on this now? But it is so much more pervasive. Because this addiction is born within ALL of us. Yes some folks have more addicting personalities BUT we ALL have this because of natural selection. We have it hard wired in us to repopulate the planet ... to be social animals and perpetuate the species.

Fortunatley some folks have evolved and continue to do so and can exist on a higher consciousness than other life forms.

So yes .. I agree. Once one experiences this it changes your perspective. There are many of these kind of experiences that touch ones life over time. Children. Loss of Parents. War. Catastrophe. Wild success. And so on. The best of us learn from these.

So many folks have tunnel vision to this stuff. They are unable to see what is really happening. They call it a scotoma.

One watches folks making the same mistakes and bad choices over and over again. That is not intelligent. It shows no capacity to evolve and adapt.

To learn from ones mistakes is very smart. To learn from other mistakes is even smarter.

As for me my dear lady ... you have no idea how far the rabbit hole goes. Some of the comments I see on here remind me of some of my ex Engineering school students. So much smarts .. so little focus and ability to use it. So wanting to be the clever one and yet so unsure of themselves at the same time. Some eventually find themselves and some do not.

I share my experience with others in this area in the off chance that someone can benefit from it. I could care less about any ridicule as what I am trying to do is very positive. I will not be detered by those will less altruistic intent. My ego is so out there that surely any snark hurled my way evalporates before it lands. Any that does one can chalk up to character building. Some folks just throw rocks at the moon because it scares them and yet the light illuminates their way through the darkness albeit with shadow and mystery.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Sigh... Anony, you just stated the same thing I did, in different words. I said I don't want the temptation, thus I won't be around it. How much clearer does it have to be?



No, I didn't say the same thing that you did. I am saying that if you aren't TEMPTED then you would have no problem being around your friend that cheated...which is the direct opposite of what you said. 



Maricha75 said:


> No, it is saying I do not wish to be in an awkward position FOR ME. You are free to do whatever you wish... I just want no part of it.


You want no part in it because you cannot control the situation or the person. 




Maricha75 said:


> I didn't say it was any other religion, anony. I said others have posted on here, saying the same things I have, but they are, as far as I know, not Christians. Meaning, this "I won't be friends with someone actively cheating, with no desire to end either relationship" isn't strictly confined to Christians.
> 
> And yes, you did pick out my posts. Perhaps because I'm the only one, it seems, who actually engages you in these things. Whatever it is, I am done arguing with you. We have gone over various points on similar subjects on other threads and got nowhere with them. Why I continue even trying, I really don't know.
> 
> You continue as a friend to a cheater. That is your choice. I won't attempt to change your mind on that. At the same time, you cannot change my mind on the subject. What works for you will not work for me. What works for me won't work for you. I am not saying you have to change your POV, nor am I saying you are wrong. So why am I wrong for believing as I do? :scratchhead:


I didn't say it would work for you, I was saying that you attempt to paint the cheater as BAD, thus you will not be around them. This is harmful, not only to you but also to the cheater. If you want to continuously harm someone whom NEEDS YOUR HELP but you have painted as BAD, then do so, but do not expect me to agree with you. If it is harmful for people with BPD to do so, do you not think it is also harmful for you to do it? 

Also, you are still playing the victim, you aren't a victim, no one is picking on you, this is a FORUM discussion, this is how it goes in EVERY forum where people debate topics such as this.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> First, a culture does not need to be Christian to practice shunning - look up what the actual history of the world ostracism is.
> 
> Ostracism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


 If you are no longer friends with the people that you get high with because you say that "getting high is wrong", then you are convicting yourself right along with them....Meaning, do you no longer DESERVE friends because you also took drugs? 

Just because you STOPPED doing drugs, does not mean that you no longer have a problem with the drugs...but the problem is WITHIN, you stay away because you are ADDICTED to the drug, not the people you got high with. In this case, the drug is cheating.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> I think you know a whole lot about that concept.


I think you do also. You have a whole thread about you playing the victim, so I learned a lot just from reading your posts.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> My thread was about acknowledging someone's past. So I guess i'm a victim of wanting someone who's lived their life in a way I feel makes us compatible. My EX also had friends she hid affairs for. Re-read my thread again since I have educated you. You may find her and you have a lot in common.


No one is saying that you HIDE affairs for people...please re-read THIS thread before you comment about it...since I educated you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

anony2 said:


> I didn't say it would work for you, I was saying that you attempt to paint the cheater as BAD, thus you will not be around them. This is harmful, not only to you but also to the cheater. If you want to continuously harm someone whom NEEDS YOUR HELP but you have painted as BAD, then do so, but do not expect me to agree with you. If it is harmful for people with BPD to do so, do you not think it is also harmful for you to do it?


How is the cheater not bad? Again, no one has said (and I challenge you to point it out) that you should drop a friend who is cheating right away. But if that person continues to cheat, and ignores counsel to the contrary, then they are in fact oing bad things. To decide to move on without them in your life is not unreasonable, any more that deciding people who engage in other bad behaviors (gossip, lying, etc.) are people you don't want to be associated with.

It certainly cannot be your position that friendship never should be terminated, and that any and all behavior must be overlooked.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

gbrad said:


> I can't stand the idea that other people feel it is their business to go telling other people in a marriage about a spouses affair. The idea that some think this is okay causes me physical pain.
> Example: I don't know the people across the street that well, see them sometimes, but don't even know their name. If I had evidence that the husband was having an affa*ir, it would not be my place to talk to the wife about it. I don't know them, I don't know their story, I would be wrong to interfere. *
> This is what I meant by only being able to say something if it was family or close friend. If I knew the person well enough and knew the relationship well enough, then I could feel it my responsibility to be involved.
> 
> ...





Entropy3000 said:


> All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
> 
> So if you are cheating on a dear friend of mine or a close relative ... you better duck. I ride a pale horse and hell is following with me.





Entropy3000 said:


> Bravo. Nicely said. This is not for many of us anyway about religion at all.
> 
> And I think it important to note that in my case I was the one who was wrong. My true friends called me on it. My wife confronted me. I did not believe them but I had faith in my friends and my wife to trust them that I was in the wrong. And they were right. So exposing someone who is in an affair is not just for the benefit of the BS.


You need to re-read this thread also, gbrad did not say that he would not tell a close friend, he said that he would not tell his NEIGHBOR because he does not know their story. 

Also, no one is saying that if you are having an affair that you should not be confronted, I have confronted my friend many times, so much that she calls me her "SANE" friend, because she knows I will call her on it.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> Sorry. I guess it's important for you to fell you are doing somebody a favor. Ok, If it sounds better to you. Don't hide it, but don't say anything about it and at times defend the WS.


Again, you aren't *READING*...I have never said that I would DEFEND the wayward spouse, I said that I would continue to be friends with my friend, even though she cheats. HUGE difference.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

anony2 said:


> If you are no longer friends with the people that you get high with because you say that "getting high is wrong", then you are convicting yourself right along with them....Meaning, do you no longer DESERVE friends because you also took drugs?


I can't figure out if you are being dishonest in your arguments or just don't get it. In case it is the latter, in this example yes, some people may decide not to be my friend due to my having taken drugs in the past. While I hope that they would understand that I had stopped and changed my life, but I also understand if they decide that is not enough. Different people have different standards, and no action is without consequence. 

As far as deserve, no one "deserves" to be friends with anyone else. Friendship is something one bestows on another. 



> Just because you STOPPED doing drugs, does not mean that you no longer have a problem with the drugs...but the problem is WITHIN, you stay away because you are ADDICTED to the drug, not the people you got high with. In this case, the drug is cheating.


Exactly. So recognizing that potential weakness, one decides to take active steps to avoid exposing it. This is bad why?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

First of all - what does BPD have to do with anything? Because people with BPD label things as "good" and "bad" that means the rest of us can't? I no longer am allowed to make choices because people with mental illness make them? Hmm. 

As to the whole, you aren't addicted to the friends who do drugs with thing. Some people in addition to having a drug/alcohol problem have an approval problem - they do things for the approval of others. Again, you can pish-posh that, but go read the threads about Girls Night Out where otherwise morally centered women have started flirting with men and ended up in EA or PA because their friends encouraged it. 

I mean, I could start a whole list of awful things people have done when they were within a culture and social setting that allowed it or encouraged it. But, I think any conversation is pretty much dead in the water the minute the Holocaust comes up, so - we'll stay away from there. However, the point being - if people are in a social/group environment with friends that encourage poor choices and poor behaviors, they are more likely to make them. They feel -enabled- to make them. 

And sure, you could make this a whole debate about how everyone should be a Jedi and have complete control over their willpower and how the problem is "within" someone, or however you want to word that. But the fact is, it is a problem. A problem made plain by history and experience - people will follow the lead of others into temptation and beyond. 

This isn't about who "deserves" to have friends. However, if you've come to a major life decision and want different things out of life - why are you not allowed to choose new friends? Are you honestly friends with -everyone- you've -ever- been friends with? Or have you drifted apart? Lost contact? Moved? Label it however you like, but if my friend and I no longer have basic things in common, that friendship isn't going to last anyways. 

Also, this whole idea that any friend in an affair NEEDS YOUR HELP. Needs your help to do what, exactly? Not all people who have affairs are victims of some unnamed tragedy. Not everyone was -driven- to commit an affair because of their spouses behavior. They made a series of choices, day by day, that ended in adultery. If you aren't supposed to tell them what they are doing is wrong - what reason are you supposed to give them for stopping? You aren't supposed to tell them to stop, you aren't supposed to tell on them.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> First of all - what does BPD have to do with anything? Because people with BPD label things as "good" and "bad" that means the rest of us can't? I no longer am allowed to make choices because people with mental illness make them? Hmm.
> 
> As to the whole, you aren't addicted to the friends who do drugs with thing. Some people in addition to having a drug/alcohol problem have an approval problem - they do things for the approval of others. Again, you can pish-posh that, but go read the threads about Girls Night Out where otherwise morally centered women have started flirting with men and ended up in EA or PA because their friends encouraged it.
> 
> ...


To me it seems as if you aren't actually reading what I have posted, instead you have conjectured of what you THINK I mean, based on your own ideology. 

1. You can decide people are good or bad if you want, but I will tell you where it leads a person with BPD...they end up having no friends at all, because everyone is "bad" at one time or another. Therefore if you cut all the drug addicts or anyone who used drugs in the past, anyone that had an affair, anyone who doesn't do what YOU want them to do...that leaves YOU and you ALONE and sometimes, you might fall to any of those things too, and guess what happens then? You wont even like yourself. 

2. I have never ever in my life heard that people get addicted to drugs for the approval of others...they might do drugs because their friends are, but the addiction comes later. If a spouse goes on a GNO and she cheats, the friends are not to blame...EVER. That might be how some people attempt to justify it though. 

3. If people follow the lead of others, they are followers and not leaders, they are letting someone else make choices for them, which is a choice in itself. Still, who they CHOOSE to follow, is not to blame for their problems. 

4. I never said one thing about not allowing other people to get new friends. That is just silly. How you got that from my post, I haven't a clue. 

5. The cheater might NEED YOUR HELP by bouncing their affair or potential of affair off on you. My friend has done this several times. She will call me and say something like "this guy is such a great guy and I think I will be happy with him" and I say, "Girl, you aren't going to be happy until you figure out why you are going from man to man to man, maybe you need to get some counseling"...She then rethinks her stance. No one said that the cheater was a victim of some tragedy...except the tragedy that they are creating by having an affair, which they are victimizing OTHERS by having one. THIS is what I keep explaining to my friend, she didn't get it until her husband brought home another woman's baby.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I can't figure out if you are being dishonest in your arguments or just don't get it. In case it is the latter, in this example yes, some people may decide not to be my friend due to my having taken drugs in the past. While I hope that they would understand that I had stopped and changed my life, but I also understand if they decide that is not enough. Different people have different standards, and no action is without consequence.
> 
> As far as deserve, no one "deserves" to be friends with anyone else. Friendship is something one bestows on another.
> 
> ...


Exposing what?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

anony2 said:


> Exposing what?


The sentence should have read "to avoid exposing yourself to it."

My brain running faster than my typing skills.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Can I just clarify something? Having expectations and standards doesn't automatically mean "We are Borg" - "Resistance is futile" "Conform", "Obey or die." But that seems to be what is is associated with, making people do what we "want them to do."

I can't make anyone do anything. However, I can decide what I'm willing to deal with. Perhaps that makes me a bad person and an awful friend, or perhaps not. Likely depends on who you ask. 

I think this conversation is officially played out at this point. I actually have no idea what is even actually being discussed. I'm starting to feel kind of gaslighted by this whole topic, so - with that in mind, I think it might be time to bow out.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Just read the original post and not the last 12+ pages, but i have to ask this:

Who is cheating/cheated which is eating you up? You doth protest too much.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

anony2 said:


> If you are no longer friends with the people that you get high with because you say that "getting high is wrong", then you are convicting yourself right along with them....Meaning, do you no longer DESERVE friends because you also took drugs?
> 
> *Just because you STOPPED doing drugs, does not mean that you no longer have a problem with the drugs...but the problem is WITHIN, you stay away because you are ADDICTED to the drug, not the people you got high with. In this case, the drug is cheating.*


People who are fortunate to be able to deal with alcohol abuse and drug addiction should not hangout with people who are drinking and doing drugs.

At some point to raise yourself up you have to select people with better character. Surround yourself with successful people. Not addicts and cheaters. It is good to remember where one came from and be compassionate and understanding but you need to extracate yourself from bad surroundings and move forward with your life. The friends we choose say much about us.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

anony2 said:


> You need to re-read this thread also, gbrad did not say that he would not tell a close friend, he said that he would not tell his NEIGHBOR because he does not know their story.
> 
> Also, no one is saying that if you are having an affair that you should not be confronted, I have confronted my friend many times, so much that she calls me her "SANE" friend, because she knows I will call her on it.


Look. I do not have to reread. My reading comprehension is excellent. You should reread because he did not limit this to a neighbor. In fact he said that this applied to close friends and relatives. He even said if the neighbor was cheating with his wife he would not tell the guys wife.

You deal with cheaters your way and I will deal them in my own way. You are going to have to accept this. I could care less what you do. That is on you. You should feel the same way about me.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JCD said:


> Just read the original post and not the last 12+ pages, but i have to ask this:
> 
> Who is cheating/cheated which is eating you up? You doth protest too much.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Look. I do not have to reread. My reading comprehension is excellent. You should reread because he did not limit this to a neighbor. In fact he said that this applied to close friends and relatives. He even said if the neighbor was cheating with his wife he would not tell the guys wife.
> 
> You deal with cheaters your way and I will deal them in my own way. You are going to have to accept this. I could care less what you do. That is on you. You should feel the same way about me.


And how anyone else deals with them is up to them...so why did you post in this thread? Didn't we all already know that?


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The sentence should have read "to avoid exposing yourself to it."
> 
> My brain running faster than my typing skills.


But you aren't exposing yourself to cheating, you are exposing yourself to your FRIEND that has cheated, for some reason, this isn't getting through to you guys.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

anony2 said:


> But you aren't exposing yourself to cheating, you are exposing yourself to your FRIEND that has cheated, for some reason, this isn't getting through to you guys.


No, its not getting through to you. I would be exposing myself to a person who either is continuing to cheat or sees nothing wrong with cheating. Big difference. If a friend cheated, realized it was wrong and worked to not do so again, then I would continue to be their friend. 

To me, it is a personal thing. When a person cheats, they show they are a liar. Now your response is while that is not good, they have not lied to me so what is the big deal. The reason it is a big deal is that they only have not lied to me because they don't need to yet. But that day may come, and I don't want to be around when it does.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

anony2 said:


> And how anyone else deals with them is up to them...so why did you post in this thread? Didn't we all already know that?


People should be getting the idea that I value high character. Thanks for noticing.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

anony2 said:


> But you aren't exposing yourself to cheating, you are exposing yourself to your FRIEND that has cheated, for some reason, this isn't getting through to you guys.


Perhaps english is not your first language.
If it is you have not read this thread.

He indicated he would not tell his freind about his friends cheating. He said he would not tell a relative about a relative cheating. I actually read what gbrad posted.

You know it is a tactic for cheaters to deny, deny, deny. This feels like that tactic. Even when exposed with no ambiguity ... deny. Obfuscate.

But indeed, you feel the need to speak for gbrad. Why is that?

Will the real slim shady please stand up.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Perhaps english is not your first language.
> If it is you have not read this thread.
> 
> He indicated he would not tell his freind about his friends cheating. He said he would not tell a relative about a relative cheating. I actually read what gbrad posted.
> ...


Can you have a conversation without accusing someone something or insinuating something? I have no clue who gbrad is, nor am I "speaking up" for him...This is not the first time that you have done this. You need to get a grip, not everyone is a liar and a cheater and if that is all you are seeing, then the problem is you...stop projecting it onto other people.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

anony2 said:


> Can you have a conversation without accusing someone something or insinuating something? I have no clue who gbrad is, nor am I "speaking up" for him...This is not the first time that you have done this. You need to get a grip, not everyone is a liar and a cheater and if that is all you are seeing, then the problem is you...stop projecting it onto other people.


I don't need to do anything more than keep being the awesome man and husband that I am. YMMV.


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