# Leaving someone who loves you



## WorkingWife

Have any of you left a marriage that was not bad but also was not great in your early 50's? If so, were you glad or did you really regret it?

Bits and pieces of my story are scattered around in posts, so here is a summary (I suck at brevity but I'm doing my best). I would appreciate any advice.

This is my second marriage. We've been married about 13 years but a couple about 20. I have had misgivings our whole relationship. 

My biggest grievances are: 

1. I've been pretty much the sole provider for our whole relationship, providing a lifestyle beyond what I wanted for myself, and as a result, I'm 51 with NO money saved for retirement and a husband who now can't work due to his health issues. My business is only doing so so but it might be taking off in a good way soon. He helps with marketing ideas and we call it "our" business, but I've done 98% of the work and still do. (The actual business is IT stuff he could not do). Most of what he has done to "help" with the business has really just created more work and stress for me.

2. He's never liked my friends or family. I do have some, er, interesting relatives. But I love my family and some of them are really great in my opinion. In the last couple years he has gotten better if I have anyone visit (maybe one visit from relatives a year, not a parade through our house) but has never, nor will he ever, try to foster any kind of relationship with people from "my" side, like parents, cousins, or even old friends. I am friends with all his old friends but he wants nothing to do with getting to know mine. It's almost like he has wanted to isolate me from my world prior to him.

3. I know he's attracted to me and thinks I'm cute, but I've never felt any real strong chemistry/desire from him for me sexually. He likes sex just fine, he is a guy, but it's kind of mechanical. No uninhibited passion or my idea of true "intimacy." And now he has health issues and seldom wants that, but I find I don't really care.

4. Prior to our marriage we were both self employed and I let myself get sucked into supporting him. It was always going to be the last month, but the next thing I knew, years went by, I moved in with him, and then we got married... Immediately after marriage his health started going down hill with auto-immune stuff. Now he really is in bad shape with migraines and other aches and pains almost every day. I feel like - how can I leave a spouse who I promised in sickness and in health to? But then I think - when he was healthy he also didn't step up.

5. He has a very guarded personality and will answer almost every question with a joke of some kind. (Even, "do you know what time it is?") In the past, his jokes were at my expense. (Some quite funny, others - just tiresome.) I used to laugh regardless, I guess to not hurt his feelings. Now that I am telling him it's not funny, he is trying really hard to change but it's still difficult to have a "normal conversation" as I call it with him. He is trying but I feel it's just for me, which kind of kills it.

There are more disappointments, but those are the MAIN things.

========

In the last couple years I found forums like this and marriage builders and started letting him know I was not happy and he he is being much more kind and really trying to stop doing things I find hurtful. Our marriage really is getting better. And yet, the thought of leaving him is just growing and growing inside of me. 

But why?

I am perfectly happy with him on a day to day basis since I started letting him know what I didn't like and he's trying so hard to change. We get along well, we enjoy each other's company, we're very dependent on each other for daily things (I cook, he just set something up on my phone for me, he gets the cars registered, does a lot of cleaning, stuff like that) we have similar opinions/values, etc.

But I also feel like I'm good natured in general and really, could get along with pretty much anyone. I don't feel like what we have is all that SPECIAL or something I couldn't have with someone else. Though we have a lot of years together that I would not have with someone else, but despite the years we have not built anything - no children, no savings, no home. Just credit card debt and promises that it's going to get better soon. I don't even have great memories of us as a couple with family.

I feel like I could be "happy" with him, but I also can't stop thinking that even at 50, I could do better. Someone better fitted for *me*. I also think we get along better than many married couples and I could leave him and find out I'm over the hill and 50 year old single guys want much younger women, and that I really didn't appreciate what a good thing I had.

So recently I ran into an old grade school friend and he told me he'd always had the biggest crush on me. I was stunned because I was not considered hot as a kid. ANYHOW, this guy is also married but I could tell he was like *really* attracted to me. To me. I barely remembered him but he knew things about my personality from when I was a kid. Things he was attracted to that my husband has always found to be "amusing quirks" in a slightly belittling way. It just got me thinking - am I totally settling for a friendship/companionship when other people have intimacy (and financial security)? Or am I a crazy person comparing the fantasy of "what could have been" to the reality of a real human?

A friend recently mentioned "the love of her life" to me and I felt sad and thought ...I've never HAD a "love of my life" and I guess I never will. (I was crazy about my first husband but he was mostly just using me to raise his kids so he liked me just fine but it wasn't that kind of love I hear others talk about.)

Anyhow, Hubby is trying *so hard *and I really am enjoying him so much more than I used to, but I still can't shake this feeling of wanting something more for the second half of my life. Half of me is afraid he'll totally get his act together and then I won't have any justification to leave him. The other half is sick to my stomach at the idea of leaving him - like why? why would you just abandon a nice person you took vows to and who is trying so hard to be what you want? Also, he is so dependent on me, I know it's twisted on my part, but if I leave him? OMG I don't know what might happen to him. He talks about suicide sometimes because of all the physical pain he is in now. (He says he would never do that but he'd be ok with it if he died). Ugggggghhhhhhh............ 

Help me....!

Oh, and yes, I know I've been a total enabler.

Thoughts?????


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## sokillme

First of all don't demean yourself by cheating, especially on you sick husband. I suspect if you have any honor at all you will look back on this moment if you do it and see it as a turning point to the ruining of your life. There will be grave consequences to your soul. Don't cheat! Did you feel this way before you ran into the grade school friend? 

The love of you life is not someone you meet, it's someone something make together. Can you think of any other thing in life that was wonderful that didn't take work, that just happens. Great love in your life is not meant to just appear and everything just works. It's not like the lottery. This is Disney thinking and not real life. Love is like a garden that needs planting, tending and pruning. We are human beings and complicated we must always be working. 

Understand you could move onto another man whom you thought was the love of your life and in time there will be faults with that one too. Or he could end up cheating on you. Like this price charming you met who is marred and scoping around for vulnerable women. I am sure he says he always had a crush on every attractive ex-schoolmate he stalks on Facebook. Which is what your high school buddy is up to. 

Sounds like you are starting up an EA? Are you? You think this married man is the love of you life, if so you picked a painful one. And a real winner. 

Also understand that you may be required to pay alimony if you leave him so your financial situation may end up being worse. 

You have identified some problems in your marriage. I am not staying stay with him, but the saying is true the grass is greener where you water it. 

Why are you writing this on a message board and not saying this to your husband. Everything you just said here. Give the man a chance but identify what it is that you really need from him. Sounds like a deeper communication, some family time and a dedication to better finances. All of those things are doable. If not then leave him with honor, yours and his intact.


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## Evinrude58

Your whole attitude toward your marriage is disgusting?

You meet one married loser that gives you a little attention and you are dreaming of divorce?

I just have little positive to say.


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## Spicy

Seeds of doubt get planted in very sneaky ways. 

Running into this old classmate, suddenly gave you a boost of "I'm still attractive, and I can do better than my current man". 
This realization came from a married man that is most likely a dirty dog cheat to be hitting on you while married himself! Gross! There is just one glimpse into what is out there for ya!

Your life hasn't went exactly the way you had hoped. I'm pretty sure most of us can empathize. You have been blessed with a husband who loves you, you get along well with, and work together to keep your lives rolling. He also is willing to try to make other adjustments in himself to be more like how you want him.

Personally, I think you would be a shallow fool to dump your husband that you have 20 years invested together, on the hopes that your perfect Prince Charming is just out there somewhere lurking and waiting for you. Your chances are high that you would be giving up a good mate for a dream mate that most likely will never show up because he doesn't exist.


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## Satya

@WorkingWife, I felt very similarly about my first husband. The big differences were that we both contributed to the relationship (albeit he made more money). But he was a sponge in other ways and never ever wanted to go out or extend himself. I was always wondering if perhaps we'd grown too different. 

We divorced for different reasons, but I was an inch away from telling him "MC or I'm gone." And I was ready to pack and go, knowing how prideful and stubborn he could be. 

It'd be good to have your husband's side, so just a disclaimer that my advice will seem in favor of you. 

First of all (and this is just personally important to me), I think you should completely own your choices. He did not "make you" or "suck you into" anything. You agreed to those things by virtue of staying with him. Sounds like you agreed multiple times over the years to things you knew in your gut were not completely OK with you. We all make wrong choices all the time - because how else can you be certain of what is right for you? So, own what you did and your part in where you are now. The acceptance of it will adjust your thinking, remove blame and victimhood which pollutes the path of action and progress, and help you to forge a cleaner, more zen path to the "what now?" stage. 

Next, what now? You'll really have to dive deep to answer this one. I see bits and pieces of the answer scattered throughout your post. Write them down. Pros and cons. What does WorkingWife see in HER future in 5 years? 10? Is it easy to picture your husband by your side in this future? Or, would staying with him paint a totally different future, one that you are less happy with or satisfied by? Will the future with him be "enough" or do you know that you'll need more? 

Having goals and dreams is fine, but you must act them out in the real world if that is what you wish. Change will not come flying through your window like superman. You must grab the life you want by the horns or it will run right past you.

You are clearly resentful that he has lived off of your income and not contributed what would have actually helped. It was not your idea of what the relationship would be like, I'm sure. It's fine to acknowledge that on a daily basis, you get along well, have fun even. But a friend or a roommate could fit that role. Your life partner should be held to a higher standard IMO.

Your age should have no bearing on your decision or action plans. My mother is 63 and after having decided to remain a widow for the last 15 years, changed her mind, joined OLD, met a wonderful, slightly older man, and they've been together for two months. Even if she hadn't met someone, she was prepared to give it an honest try, and if she failed, she was fine with living alone. You have to be OK with any outcome. 

Life is inherently risky and we can't account for every possible outcome. I'm a firm believer in the inevitable transience of all relationships in our lifetime. I've often spouted it on this board. Many relationships are simply not meant to last long term. It's the lessons we learn that have the greatest permanence.


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## Openminded

Many affairs begin when people are in contact someone they knew from their youth. Why? Because that time was full of optimism and promise and all of life was ahead with a clean slate. People especially think of that easier time in mid-life when life isn't nearly as simple as it was back then. 

Don't divorce your husband because someone you knew decades ago still finds you attractive. You could have divorced him before now -- and maybe you should have -- but you didn't. Now he's trying to make things work (maybe because he's totally dependent on you or maybe because he wants to make you happy or maybe both) but you're thinking of the road not taken and wondering if it's too late for happiness with someone else. That's not uncommon at your age but that doesn't mean it's always a good idea. Yes, you've been a major enabler in your marriage and now you regret it and wish your life were different (as those of who are enablers usually do). BTDT. But it will be much harder to get out than it would have been earlier. And there will be a lot of guilt associated with it. 

Your friend could be perfectly willing to have an affair with you but it's unlikely he'll get a divorce for you. They very rarely do. Maybe you could find someone else better suited if you divorced but you might not. Some people end up happy after divorce and some people don't. Do you want out enough to take that risk?


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## TheRealMcCoy

WorkingWife said:


> We've been married about 13 years but a couple about 20. I have had misgivings our whole relationship.


I'm guessing most women who find themselves in your position at 50 say the same thing. But you marry us anyhow. Please stop doing that gals. 





WorkingWife said:


> Anyhow, Hubby is trying *so hard *...




No he's not. He's just being your hubby. Trying "hard" will be when he finally realizes you're gone. That he's given his heart and soul to a woman who "settled" for him. But he'll still try to get you back. He'll beg and plead. And you'll know the moment he finally realizes it's over. It won't be in his voice or actions as much as his eyes. You'll see it in his eyes.

Had you found the guts to do that 20 years ago he'd be happy now with a woman who loves him. But you didn't. You settled for him. So make up for it and set him free now. Let him be happy with someone who loves him at 70. You owe him. He's gonna' figure it out some day anyhow. We always do. Rip the band aid off fast. It's always less painful in the end.




WorkingWife said:


> Half of me is afraid he'll totally get his act together and then I won't have any justification to leave him.


I've got good news for you. Want to know what the greatest motivator towards getting your "act together" is? Finding out you need to win your wife back. Then you know what REALLY starts the healing for him? When he finally realizes you're gone for good and he implements his 180 (please recommend that to him. He can find info on it anywhere).

Leaving him is a win-win-win for EVERYBODY. It's just gonna' suck for a while. For everybody.


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## TheTruthHurts

I'm sorry you're feeling this way.

My oldest boys are college freshmen -and I've tried to be honest and open about character, relationships, etc

One boy has dated a few girls and he's the type to go with the flow and agree to whatever the girl wants. He's a big kid (6' 200 lbs) smart and athletic so he's a great teddy bear boyfriend. He's also introverted.

So I told him it's ok to end a relationship where there is actually nothing wrong, where both are good people, where you like each other... but it's just not working out for you. This was in HS and a girl was checking off the "boyfriend" box by dating him but not really into him.

He ended up breaking up, in person, and all the girls around him had sympathy for him because he did it the right way.

A few years later, now, he had a LTR with a nice girl he had dated for 1-1/2 years. This girl was way more into him and nice, but we all have issues. Anyway I came to find out he took a bus to see her to break up in person. He had been telling her they had communication issues (both too quiet) and he had too much on his plate with school and sports to talk all the time to her. Again - nothing specifically precipitated it, but he knew it wasn't going somewhere that he needed.

She freaked out, gave him back all his stuff, lashed out at him for cheating... I totally understand her feelings. But he was kind of shell shocked. But once again, he did it in person,with character and I'm proud of him.

As I tell my kids, adults are just kids with wrinkles and a little money. My advice would be the same to you. The hardest decisions we can make sometimes involve leaving something that would be good for someone else, but not us


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred

Two different things here

Leaving a marriage in which you are long term unhappy is often a very reasonable thing to do if you can figure out how to improve things.

OTOH, leaving for another person is usually a bad idea. The problem with meeting someone new (or from a long time ago) is that you see some superficial things, but you really don't know much about them. Your brain fills in the gaps with ideas from your desires of what you *want* them to be, not what they actually are. Its a terrible trap - so easy to create this image in your mind of a wonderful person. You leave your marriage, and then only after a while discover that the reality doesn't match the fantasy,


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## 225985

y.


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## uhtred

Depends on how well you knew the person, and whether you were honest with yourself about what you saw - and whether they were pretending to be someone that they weren't. 

No guarantees, but at least you have a better chance if you have spent a long time with someone. 




blueinbr said:


> That's no different from marriage. After the wedding you discover that reality doesn't match the fantasy.


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## Diana7

Do you believe in keeping the promises that you made? That marriage is for better and for worse? Do you honestly think that the grass is always greener? Do you think its sensible to let a married man who tells you, a married lady, that he has always fancied you, make any difference? What sort of married man does that? Not a good one that's for sure.

I think this is so sad. You husband is trying hard to change, you get on well, yet you yearn for this 'fantasy' that will probably never happen whether you stay or not. 
Don't let your mind dwell on leaving, or on some fantasy life you are dreaming up. Focus on your marriage and together make it the best it can be, get counseling if needed. You chose to marry him, think about all the good things you have, and not on the few that you think you don't. Many people would be glad to have what you do. Do you really want yet another divorce, and the possibility of being alone for the rest of you life?


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## Diana7

uhtred said:


> Two different things here
> 
> Leaving a marriage in which you are long term unhappy is often a very reasonable thing to do if you can figure out how to improve things.
> 
> OTOH, leaving for another person is usually a bad idea. The problem with meeting someone new (or from a long time ago) is that you see some superficial things, but you really don't know much about them. Your brain fills in the gaps with ideas from your desires of what you *want* them to be, not what they actually are. Its a terrible trap - so easy to create this image in your mind of a wonderful person. You leave your marriage, and then only after a while discover that the reality doesn't match the fantasy,


yes and so many people have done that and regretted it.


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## Buddy400

@WorkingWife

I'm familiar with your story.

You have a lot of reasons to be unhappy with your husband (in particular, his pushing his way to the front row at a concert!).

It seemed like you were on the brink a while ago and I was encouraging you to leave.

Others are taking your meeting an old classmate as the driver, but it just gave you some optimism about your future ability to date that you were lacking before.

It sucks that your husband is trying hard lately, it would be a lot easier if he'd just stayed a ****.

Decide if you'd be happier alone than married and base your decision on that. If it turns out that you'd be happier alone then finding a better man would just be gravy.

As far as his reaction to you leaving: you can't live your life for someone else's happiness.


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## rrrbbbttt

Okay,

Just trying to understand:

You are not happy.
Think you can do better.
Married guy giving you attention so it makes you feel special. (Red Flag why is a Married guy doing something that is improper?)

You have a business (Correction unless you have an Iron Clad Prenup you have 50% of a business) Sorry being practical
You choose to leave a guy who is now sick after 20 years what is the perception of friends and family?

One question: Have you and your current husband (not the jerk who is doing something outside of his marriage, actually
I feel emotionally cheating on his wife) tried counseling?

I really think you need to talk to a counselor to actually analyze this.


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## Buddy400

rrrbbbttt said:


> You choose to leave a guy who is now sick after 20 years what is the perception of friends and family?


He's been "sick" since day one.


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## Steve1000

WorkingWife said:


> Thoughts?????


I'm not sure what your final decision should be, but here's one small thing to consider:

The guy who told you that he has always been attracted to you is married. From his wife's perspective, she is married to a man who let's other women know that he is attracted to them. You might have enough valid reasons to leave your husband, but don't replace him with another man who is a player.

Edit: I have now noticed that I certainly wasn't the first one (as usual) to mention this.


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## WorkingWife

First, I want to say *thank you SO MUCH to EVERYONE on here* for the very thoughtful responses. It is very helpful and sobering. I feel confident giving others advice but can't see my own situation clearly. I'm going to read through this thread and digest more over the next couple days. I'm just going to respond to this post right now and add a few things in case they they change anyones advice.



sokillme said:


> First of all don't demean yourself by cheating, especially on you sick husband. I suspect if you have any honor at all you will look back on this moment if you do it and see it as a turning point to the ruining of your life. There will be grave consequences to your soul. Don't cheat! Did you feel this way before you ran into the grade school friend?


No no no, I will not cheat. Never. Yes I felt this way before I ran into the grade school friend. In fact, I had 90% of this post written out on my computer months ago and started to post many times before but the situation was always fluid and one day I'd want out so bad and the next day I'd feel like "ho hum, we get along better than most." 

I mentioned the grade school friend because his flattery really DID get into my head. That and a couple other things happened at the same time (see below) that gave a sense of urgency to my long standing feeling of low level frustration/malcontent. I have been unhappy with sex/intimacy with my H our whole relationship. Knowing this guy was really attracted to me in a way my husband NEVER has been, really did mess with my head as far as thinking about the kind of sexual relationship I could have with someone other than my husband that I can't have with him. I don't even know this guy well. I suspect he would have had an affair with me if I gave him any encouragement. (Which actually makes him unattractive to me.) 




sokillme said:


> The love of you life is not someone you meet, it's someone something make together. Can you think of any other thing in life that was wonderful that didn't take work, that just happens. Great love in your life is not meant to just appear and everything just works. It's not like the lottery. This is Disney thinking and not real life. Love is like a garden that needs planting, tending and pruning. We are human beings and complicated we must always be working.


I guess that's part of my long term frustration. I feel like I have been working, and working, and working, and we've gotten nowhere. I know all the sacrificing I've done is my fault, but when I try to think of a way to stop, the only way I can think of is to separate, because while I am getting better, I have not been strong enough when I'm here with him. He rationalizes away my misgivings.




sokillme said:


> Understand you could move onto another man whom you thought was the love of your life and in time there will be faults with that one too. Or he could end up cheating on you. Like this price charming you met who is marred and scoping around for vulnerable women. I am sure he says he always had a crush on every attractive ex-schoolmate he stalks on Facebook. Which is what your high school buddy is up to.


Yes, I understand that. One thing that I have been unable to think in my mind is would I be happier living the rest of my life alone with no man, or with my husband and our frustrations. I go back and forth in my mind from day to day. In general I would like his companionship over being alone, but because he has been so closed off to fostering any kind of relationship with any of my family, in the last couple years I gave up and started visiting family on my own. I felt so happy being around them, so close to them, and I've missed them so much my whole marriage. Sadly, I found that I would much rather be with my friends and family withOUT him around because if I were to insist he come, he would do it, but be a total stick in the mud. Or be all friendly to their face and then tell me how he finds them boring afterward.




sokillme said:


> Sounds like you are starting up an EA? Are you? You think this married man is the love of you life, if so you picked a painful one. And a real winner.


No but I was extremely tempted to. This guy started texting me all the time and I knew it was wrong but I looked forward to his texts regardless. When I realized that I didn't want my H to know how much he was texting me I told him to stop and he did. If I had not been on forums like this and known what an emotional affair was, I probably would have just kept texting away. The pull to see what he would say next was extremely strong. I've never understood how people could do that to their spouses but it was truly an overwhelming (completely self indulgent) urge. That was a few weeks ago.

If I do separate I plan to move out of town near a relative for a couple months, so I would not be tempted to look up "prince charming."



sokillme said:


> Also understand that you may be required to pay alimony if you leave him so your financial situation may end up being worse.


I would have to do something. He has absolutely no way of supporting himself at the moment. I helped create this situation by never putting a stop to it, and now he has the health issues. If I had not kept paying his bills I have no doubt he would have found a way to be self sufficient today. And being self employed with a business that goes up and down, this really scares me. I was reading about alimony last night in my state and they say it's based on "the lifestyle" you've been providing for the "dependent" person. ****. ME. 90% of my grievance is that he's spent every dime I've earned plus gone into debt over the last 20 years to live in an expensive place with a lifestyle I don't even want. I can't keep up with our current bills, let alone two households if one of them is of THIS lifestyle.

I am going to see a lawyer just to find out where I stand, whether I leave or not.



sokillme said:


> You have identified some problems in your marriage. I am not staying stay with him, but the saying is true the grass is greener where you water it.
> 
> Why are you writing this on a message board and not saying this to your husband. Everything you just said here. Give the man a chance but identify what it is that you really need from him. Sounds like a deeper communication, some family time and a dedication to better finances. All of those things are doable. If not then leave him with honor, yours and his intact.


I have said all this to my husband. Hence his trying so much more lately. I have not said "I'm thinking of actually separating from you" in the last few days (when it's been more on my mind) but I have told him I really see his changes and really appreciate them but I am very resentful about where we are.

OTHER THINGS THAT MAKE ME PAUSE
Most posts seem very focused on the guy who made me think "what if" and I almost left him out of the story because I was afraid of that, but I know he is a factor in my sudden urgency to make a decision. But these things were really pushing me before he was anywhere near the picture:

1. I have a product for my business that should be launch ready in a couple months. Every time I talk to my H about money stress, he says "just get the product launched and then we'll talk." He thinks it's going to make tons of money. (He plans to help with the marketing for it.) I feel like if we are going to end up separated or divorced, I need to do it *before *the business starts making more money because of alimony.

2. Not having my product out yet, business has been slow lately and suddenly we were almost out of money again. If I didn't have him, I could easily live on what I make, work less, relax more, and save money. I feel like I could fall back in love with him if I put my mind to it and opened my heart - but I feel like that is not a SAFE thing to do for my financial future. I am extremely resentful that he has let us get to this point. I know it's my fault for giving in all the time but I also know that I would NEVER let someone else give up their financial security for my immediate comfort.

3. My divorced parents are both in their mid to late 80's. When they pass I'll probably inherit a over 100K from each of them. My father in particular does not want my H getting part of the inheritance, and while I have always had the attitude of "What's mine is ours as we are married" I feel the same way. He is trying to change but so far he has spent EVERY dime I have made. When I talk about moving and buying a house he says he's on board and then starts showing me $600K homes as his bottom standard. I really don't feel SAFE financially being married to him. He seems to be changing but what if I stay and then inherit and he spends it or we get divorced and he gets half of it. I hate myself for thinking that way, but it is a real concern.

4. We don't have children but wanted them then were going to adopt from Foster care, he kept saying he wanted to do that but so often when we had a class he didn't feel good, so we never could get through the program - this went on at least 10 years. I have a step daughter with two small children who would love us nearby to be family/grandparents to her kids. I see this as a solution to my very strong need for parenting and family. Hubby says he is now willing to move to a less expensive area, even the state she is in, but he will go anywhere EXCEPT close to them because he does not want them in our lives - or me in theirs? He likes the area and he does not dislike them, but like all my friends/family they are "not his type" and he "doesn't want them in his life" - I can go visit them on my own. When I say it would fill my need to have children/family around he said "We are going to do the Foster kids. I still want to do that." And now I say "I simply don't believe that will ever happen."

For example the thing with family - what kind of wonderful memories could I have built over the last 20 years if I'd found someone who was open to getting to know my friends and family, not just his?

Then again we were talking about something with politics that we agreed on the other day and both burst out laughing at the same time. I wish we had more of that, but that stuff is golden to me when it happens and I think - why walk away when he loves me and wants it to work?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

So he just came in my office and said he knows things are hard right now but he's been thinking and there are not a lot of people who are together 20 years and he is trying and it's going to get better and it will all work out. 

SORRY POST IS SO LONG.


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## WorkingWife

Thank you so much for this. Everything you say is true about the role I have played in this. Part of me thinks that the only way I can let him be the man I need him to be is to separate for awhile and let him figure it out. Or not. 

Anyhow, your post really spoke to me and how I have been feeling and I wanted to thank you. I'll be rereading and thinking about this and the other posts a lot over the next few days.



Satya said:


> @WorkingWife, I felt very similarly about my first husband. The big differences were that we both contributed to the relationship (albeit he made more money). But he was a sponge in other ways and never ever wanted to go out or extend himself. I was always wondering if perhaps we'd grown too different.
> 
> We divorced for different reasons, but I was an inch away from telling him "MC or I'm gone." And I was ready to pack and go, knowing how prideful and stubborn he could be.
> 
> It'd be good to have your husband's side, so just a disclaimer that my advice will seem in favor of you.
> 
> First of all (and this is just personally important to me), I think you should completely own your choices. He did not "make you" or "suck you into" anything. You agreed to those things by virtue of staying with him. Sounds like you agreed multiple times over the years to things you knew in your gut were not completely OK with you. We all make wrong choices all the time - because how else can you be certain of what is right for you? So, own what you did and your part in where you are now. The acceptance of it will adjust your thinking, remove blame and victimhood which pollutes the path of action and progress, and help you to forge a cleaner, more zen path to the "what now?" stage.
> 
> Next, what now? You'll really have to dive deep to answer this one. I see bits and pieces of the answer scattered throughout your post. Write them down. Pros and cons. What does WorkingWife see in HER future in 5 years? 10? Is it easy to picture your husband by your side in this future? Or, would staying with him paint a totally different future, one that you are less happy with or satisfied by? Will the future with him be "enough" or do you know that you'll need more?
> 
> Having goals and dreams is fine, but you must act them out in the real world if that is what you wish. Change will not come flying through your window like superman. You must grab the life you want by the horns or it will run right past you.
> 
> You are clearly resentful that he has lived off of your income and not contributed what would have actually helped. It was not your idea of what the relationship would be like, I'm sure. It's fine to acknowledge that on a daily basis, you get along well, have fun even. But a friend or a roommate could fit that role. Your life partner should be held to a higher standard IMO.
> 
> Your age should have no bearing on your decision or action plans. My mother is 63 and after having decided to remain a widow for the last 15 years, changed her mind, joined OLD, met a wonderful, slightly older man, and they've been together for two months. Even if she hadn't met someone, she was prepared to give it an honest try, and if she failed, she was fine with living alone. You have to be OK with any outcome.
> 
> Life is inherently risky and we can't account for every possible outcome. I'm a firm believer in the inevitable transience of all relationships in our lifetime. I've often spouted it on this board. Many relationships are simply not meant to last long term. It's the lessons we learn that have the greatest permanence.


----------



## Buddy400

WorkingWife said:


> I was reading about alimony last night in my state and they say it's based on "the lifestyle" you've been providing for the "dependent" person. ****. ME. 90% of my grievance is that *he's spent every dime I've earned plus gone into debt* over the last 20 years to live in an expensive place with a lifestyle I don't even want. I can't keep up with our current bills, let alone two households if one of them is of THIS lifestyle.


Put a stop to this NOW.

You make the money. If he spends more than you'd like, don't let him. With the business situation, separating income could be tricky. See a lawyer.

As I recall, you rent. When the lease is up inform him that you'll be moving into a cheaper place.


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## bankshot1993

@WorkingWife

First off I want to say that I haven't had time to read the entire thread so please forgive me if I'm a little off base or if I'm repeating the sentiments of others, I just wanted to share some thoughts with you after reading your initial post.

For starters I will tell you something I heard once. somebody once told me if I spend all my time looking for that which is going to make me happy, I will miss out on all that is already making me happy. I never understood it at first but I came to understand that what it meant is that if I'm going to spend my time looking for something to make me happy than I've forgotten to enjoy what I have because to be looking for happiness we must first convince ourselves that we aren't already happy. 

I don't say any of this because I think you should be happy and you are just looking a gift horse in the mouth, I'm saying this as a reminder to you that happiness comes from within. Nobody will ever be able to bring you happiness if you can't first find it within yourself.

The other thing I wanted to touch on, and maybe I'm reaching here who knows, is that it sounds like you are bored with life right now. I say this only because I see so, so much of the struggles I have been battling myself in what you have written. Struggles that I have come to accept as a mid life crisis. Have you been thinking a lot about "is this it," or "is this all there is to life?" "is this all I can expect"

I find myself on a daily basis thinking about these things, Thinking to myself that I don't want to go coasting through this way until I die. I want to feel the excitement of being alive again, I want to feel what its like to feel head over heels in love again. I have been with my wife for over thirty years and all those feeling of excitement have given way to the feelings of routine, mundane familiarity. I've heard all of her stories and she's heard all of mine. we spend our evening in quite reflection because we've run out of things to share. Its comfortable but its boring. I've reached that point in my life where I exist for the simple purpose of existing. I get up, I go to work, I go home and watch tv or go and play softball or go do one of my other activities, then I go to bed so that I can get up in the morning and repeat the process all over again. I've lost the drive to get out of bed and attack the world with zeal.

I love my wife but honestly all the excitement left our relationship a long time ago and I find myself wondering everything you are wondering. there is a trade off, security and companionship for excitement and adventure. You know the old saying familiarity breeds contempt, that's because when you've eaten the same peanut butter sandwich a million times that sandwich gets pretty boring.

I can promise you that those feelings of boredom are never going away but only you can decide what your priorities are. What is important to you? the excitement or the security. Do you trade the security of having a comfortable relationship at home for the danger of not knowing whats around the corner. Let's face it excitement comes from Danger and long term relationships take all the danger out of relationships and replace it with security and comfort, comfort is after all the opposite of danger.

good luck with whatever you decide. Who knows, maybe if it works out for you I will finally get the courage to pull the plug myself.


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## WorkingWife

Buddy400 said:


> Put a stop to this NOW.
> 
> You make the money. If he spends more than you'd like, don't let him. With the business situation, separating income could be tricky. See a lawyer.
> 
> As I recall, you rent. When the lease is up inform him that you'll be moving into a cheaper place.


I will see a lawyer.

The business is in both our names, but it's really me being self employed - not a business we could sell. All our bank accounts, including the business one that all my clients pay to, are in both our names. 

We do rent. We have an extremely good deal (at $2,500 a month...) for our area. Our lease is month to month so we could leave any time. However, I don't think we could find anything for much less in this area, and to move to where I want to go (another state) looks like it would be at least $10K, plus first and last, etc. We also have 3 dogs to consider which affect rental options. So I'm looking into all my options but I feel trapped right now.

He keeps saying it makes no sense to move right now, just to save about $1,000 a month, when a move will cost so much, and then we'll just want to move again in a year or two. What he says makes sense to me but it leaves me frustrated for wanting to move my life forward. Also, his mom is in town and dependent on our help. I was thinking we could move into one house together to save money (I posted about that and I think you gave me really good feedback there too.). After some recent exchanges with his mom I know all three of us would be miserable living together. 

Right now you are right, I need to get to a lawyer and just find out the facts. If I do separate my thought is it would be a trial separation and I would stay with a relative who likes extra people in her house (God only knows why, LOL) or rent a room somewhere for less than $1,000 a month - my dad has offered to help.


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## Elizabeth001

As a 48 year old woman that just spent 11 years of my life trying to make it happen in a "roommate" situation, get to that attorney as fast as you can. There's nothing you can do to get back the years, but you do have time to establish yourself in a healthy situation. You may or may not find the passionate love that we all seek but at this point you do need a financial plan for security in your retirement years. You will NEVER have this with this man. 

I get what you are saying about the man who reached out to you. It's not that you wanted HIM, it's the feelings that he awoke in you that told you that something like that is POSSIBLE, and you'll never find out staying with this leach. Let's face it...you are on the fast track to becoming this mans mother and nurse for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. He may be changing his attitude for now, but if he loved you passionately, he would have done that a long time ago. What you see is a bandaid and what you need is surgery. 

You're a smart lady. Get your sh1t together. It's not too late. 




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## Openminded

That's how you got stuck for the last 20 years -- listening to your husband push all your problems off to tomorrow. He sounds overly optimistic without a real plan to make it happen but he's sure it will all be better very soon. Don't listen. 

Did you used to post here under a different name? The part about wanting an expensive house sounds very familiar but I don't remember the name of that poster from several years ago although her situation was very much like yours. We kept encouraging her to leave but my guess is she didn't.


----------



## WorkingWife

rrrbbbttt said:


> Okay,
> 
> Just trying to understand:
> 
> You are not happy.
> _Not happy but not UNhappy either._
> 
> Think you can do better.
> I know I would be much more financially secure without him.
> I think I could do better in finding a match in terms of someone who wants more of the same things I do both financially and in many other ways.
> I don't know that I could do better in finding a friend/roommate/companion. My first husband was much more compatible with me in all the ways I mention, as well as the couple boyfriends I had when young, so in that regard I think I could. But then my first husband was also alcoholic and a serial cheater - so having that compatibility would definitely not be "doing better" if it comes at a cost like that.
> 
> And I am very attached to my current husband.
> 
> 
> Married guy giving you attention so it makes you feel special. (Red Flag why is a Married guy doing something that is improper?)
> It did make me feel special and it also made me feel icky because it was improper (so it did not make me want _*him*_, the married guy. ). I have been thinking I could do better for so long, I do love my husband but I so wish I had not married him. I feel like it was the biggest mistake of my life. I don't really know exactly how to describe what this guys attention did but I was attracted to him, or at least the idea of someone like him (who wasn't married) and that feeling did get in my head and was very unsettling. Prior to that I've been thinking of leaving for all the other reasons listed, and I've been jealous other couples our age with their financial security, children, families, etc. but I never looked at any of the men and thought - I wish I could have sex with him. Or I wish he was my husband instead.
> 
> 
> You have a business (Correction unless you have an Iron Clad Prenup you have 50% of a business) Sorry being practical
> 
> No prenup. The business I don't know about - basically I am a consultant. The only money that comes in is for work I do for clients. So it's a business, but I am the business. I've had >100K years, but I've also had $35K years... I have 0 guarantee of future income. However, a couple years ago, in an attempt to "help" the business, H decided my sole proprietorship needed to be our LLC and he did the paperwork to restructure as an LLC. I didn't like the idea and told him, but he really believed it would protect assetts and I went along with him really to keep the peace and let him feel useful and like it was "our" business. I have no idea what would happen financially now if we divorce.
> 
> You choose to leave a guy who is now sick after 20 years what is the perception of friends and family?
> Oh God, I know right? But every single one of my grievances, plus many more that he's totally improved upon, were happening BEFORE he got sick. His illness honestly feels to me like his subconscious sabotaging his body to give him an excuse for why he is not living up to his potential (which is vast).
> 
> And here is the sick thing on my part - I knew better than to marry him, I knew it in my gut, but I did it anyhow and so much of that reason was because of my fear of what family and friends would think, not of me, but of him, if I left him. (They had no idea I was basically supporting him by that point.) Almost every decision I made that I regret now in our marriage was done to cover for his need to project an image of success and prosperity.
> 
> Now, when I talk with girlfriends about my frustrations, there are really just two reasons I haven't walked already:
> 1. I took marriage vows. (I'm not religious, but a vow is a vow.)
> 2. I am so worried about what everyone will think. More for him than for me because I know how important that is to him. I'm kind of over it - living my life based on what others think of me though I have done that up to now - but I know it would literally devastate and humiliate him, at least temporarily.
> 
> 
> One question: Have you and your current husband (not the jerk who is doing something outside of his marriage, actually
> I feel emotionally cheating on his wife) tried counseling?
> No. I think I would be open to the idea but also I feel like it's just more stalling. About a year ago I told him I was moving somewhere cheaper and he could come with me or not. Suddenly he mentioned in passing that he would do marriage counseling. He talked me out of the move at this time and I agreed that we would make the decision together. We have not been able to come to an agreement and usually drop the subject soon after starting it.
> 
> ANYHOW - about 2 years ago I asked him to do the marriage builders program with me. He read a bit of a couple books and that's when his improvement really started. He even bought the program at my request (he loves to buy things...). BUT then he would not do it. We watched a couple hours and he felt it was demeaning. He wanted to change on his own. He would not do any of the exercises and made it clear he was never going to be "open" with me in the way the program says, nor did he want me to be truly open with him.
> 
> This is another theme. Any idea that I come up with his instinct is to immediately reject.
> We spent THOUSANDS, like probably at *least* $10K, two years ago on marketing seminars to build my business. He just went and signed up for them for us in most cases. I joined him with an open mind. We ended up not even attending most of the last two multi day seminars because he had headaches or didn't feel good. He's yet to follow through on anything we learned. He's studying something new right now as I type. He's wanted to do other self help "programs" so we are "in them together" and I have always enthusiastically agreed and tried but so far, nothing changes except from the MB stuff.
> 
> So YESTERDAY he tells me he's been listening to a lot of Tony Robbins and he'd really like me to do one of his courses with him. I could pick any one. Then he says "He even has a really good marriage one." I was politely non committal but I just wanted to scream - what about marriage builders? That was really helping. Except now I am also afraid that MB will help too much and I will fall romantically back in love with him and be tied to him the rest of my life and end up a bitter little old lady who is penniless with no children and no close family or friends because I stayed with him.
> 
> So marriage counseling is an IDEA, and I wouldn't just say NO to it, but I'm very leery.
> 
> I really think you need to talk to a counselor to actually analyze this.



I actually am planning on doing that. And I have suggested he do it for himself, but he was unreceptive to that idea. He wants to keep doing self help stuff. It FELT to me like his regular instinct to reject any idea I come up with and want to find his own thing.

I am afraid that the minute I sit down with a therapist what will come out of my mouth is "Help me grow the balls to leave my husband." as opposed to "help me figure out what I should do." And I hear IC counselors are usually big on helping you divorce because it's all about finding your individual bliss or whatever. When I get alone with a girlfriend or talking on the forum like this I get on a roll and I just want OUT. But when I'm actually WITH my husband, I love him and feel deep empathy for him as I know he is trying and has his struggles. I'm also really pissed and resentful at both of us for getting to this place.


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## WorkingWife

Elizabeth001 said:


> As a 48 year old woman that just spent 11 years of my life trying to make it happen in a "roommate" situation, get to that attorney as fast as you can. There's nothing you can do to get back the years, but you do have time to establish yourself in a healthy situation. You may or may not find the passionate love that we all seek but at this point you do need a financial plan for security in your retirement years. You will NEVER have this with this man.
> 
> I get what you are saying about the man who reached out to you. It's not that you wanted HIM, it's the feelings that he awoke in you that told you that something like that is POSSIBLE, and you'll never find out staying with this leach. Let's face it...you are on the fast track to becoming this mans mother and nurse for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. *He may be changing his attitude for now, but if he loved you passionately, he would have done that a long time ago. What you see is a bandaid and what you need is surgery. *
> 
> You're a smart lady. Get your sh1t together. It's not too late.


Thank you. Honestly, I expected a lot more responses like yours than I got. I think that mentioning the FB guy made everyone think I was considering leaving my H for someone else. And I can't say he didn't get in my mind. However, what I bolded that you said - *That *is the one thing that gets me the most as I see his improvements today. I know I enabled this whole situation and am totally responsible for all I did, but then doesn't that mean that I have to be the one to stop it too? And despite my complicity, I keep thinking of him - If you truly LOVED me, why didn't you protect me from myself and yourself? How could you let me give you so much? He has also borrowed a lot from his mom who is on fixed income, though we are paying that back, but still, it bothers me that he was able to do that when we could have moved into a studio apartment or out of our expensive area instead.

This is where I am thinking I will definitely see a lawyer and a therapist. And maybe even if our marriage is salvageable, the path to that point might be my separating for at least a few months. (but NOT dating anyone or letting anyone get in my head like I did FB guy.)

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## chillymorn69

him not letting you be with your extended family is not cool.
him not contributing to your bills is not cool.
him not being intimate is not cool.


these thing need to be corrected or in my humble opinion you would be justified in leaving.

I have this talk with him.

Listen hon, I love you am attracted to you but resentment has set in because you don't want to be friendly or embrace my family yes they might be a little off so to speak but Damn it their my family. I feel even more resentment because you don't contribute to our financial situation. most people need two incomes to live comfortable if you truly can't work because of your illness then let try to get social security. I also miss intimacy with you I realize your unwell but we can make the Most of it and still try. you could use your hands or mouth or a toy and we can see the dr and get some ed pills or a least a good hearted effort at gaining some intimacy back in our marriage.

If he balks and act indifferent then see a lawyer.


unfortunately I think your already done. to much resentment has built up over the years. and no amount of trying on his part will be enough to rekindle your love for him. 


with that being said I do think in sickness and health richer or poorer does not apply because hes been a crappy husband and if you decide to leave you would be justified.


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## Jessica38

WorkingWife said:


> My biggest grievances are:
> 
> 1. I've been pretty much the sole provider for our whole relationship, providing a lifestyle beyond what I wanted for myself, and as a result, I'm 51 with NO money saved for retirement and a husband who now can't work due to his health issues. My business is only doing so so but it might be taking off in a good way soon. He helps with marketing ideas and we call it "our" business, but I've done 98% of the work and still do. (The actual business is IT stuff he could not do). Most of what he has done to "help" with the business has really just created more work and stress for me.
> You have a high need for Financial Support and your husband hasn't been able to make this happen. By his lack of providing/saving adequately for retirement, he's lovebusting you.
> 
> 2. He's never liked my friends or family. I do have some, er, interesting relatives. But I love my family and some of them are really great in my opinion. In the last couple years he has gotten better if I have anyone visit (maybe one visit from relatives a year, not a parade through our house) but has never, nor will he ever, try to foster any kind of relationship with people from "my" side, like parents, cousins, or even old friends. I am friends with all his old friends but he wants nothing to do with getting to know mine. It's almost like he has wanted to isolate me from my world prior to him.
> It sounds like you also have a need for Family Commitment. Is there a reason why he doesn't like your family? Are they disrespectful or rude to him in any way? Do they criticize him for not being more financially secure?
> 
> 3. I know he's attracted to me and thinks I'm cute, but I've never felt any real strong chemistry/desire from him for me sexually. He likes sex just fine, he is a guy, but it's kind of mechanical. No uninhibited passion or my idea of true "intimacy." And now he has health issues and seldom wants that, but I find I don't really care.
> You're losing feelings of love for him due to lack of his meeting your needs, so you're not interested in having sex with him. How much time do you two spend meeting other intimate needs in marriage: conversation, recreational companionship, and affection? Are you spending at least 15 hours a week dating each other like Marriage Builders says to keep romantic feelings of love in the marriage?
> 
> 4. Prior to our marriage we were both self employed and I let myself get sucked into supporting him. It was always going to be the last month, but the next thing I knew, years went by, I moved in with him, and then we got married... Immediately after marriage his health started going down hill with auto-immune stuff. Now he really is in bad shape with migraines and other aches and pains almost every day. I feel like - how can I leave a spouse who I promised in sickness and in health to? But then I think - when he was healthy he also didn't step up.
> Again, he's not meeting your high need for Financial Support.
> 
> 5. He has a very guarded personality and will answer almost every question with a joke of some kind. (Even, "do you know what time it is?") In the past, his jokes were at my expense. (Some quite funny, others - just tiresome.) I used to laugh regardless, I guess to not hurt his feelings. Now that I am telling him it's not funny, he is trying really hard to change but it's still difficult to have a "normal conversation" as I call it with him. He is trying but I feel it's just for me, which kind of kills it.
> This is called annoying behavior in Marriage Builders, and is a lovebuster. You need to tell him this bothers you so he can stop doing it, as it withdraws feelings of love you have for him.
> There are more disappointments, but those are the MAIN things.
> These are big issues. Has your husband agreed to do the MB program with you? When you say he's making a lot of effort, what exactly is he doing? Has he read His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters? Is he making it a priority to spend 15 hours a week dating you? Is he willing/able to work? Can he help budget and save for retirement?
> 
> ========
> 
> In the last couple years I found forums like this and marriage builders and started letting him know I was not happy and he he is being much more kind and really trying to stop doing things I find hurtful. Our marriage really is getting better. And yet, the thought of leaving him is just growing and growing inside of me.
> 
> But why?
> Because you've lost feelings of love for him.
> 
> I am perfectly happy with him on a day to day basis since I started letting him know what I didn't like and he's trying so hard to change. We get along well, we enjoy each other's company, we're very dependent on each other for daily things (I cook, he just set something up on my phone for me, he gets the cars registered, does a lot of cleaning, stuff like that) we have similar opinions/values, etc.
> 
> Do you two have fun together doing activities you both enjoy that build romantic love?
> 
> So recently I ran into an old grade school friend and he told me he'd always had the biggest crush on me. I was stunned because I was not considered hot as a kid. ANYHOW, this guy is also married but I could tell he was like *really* attracted to me. To me. I barely remembered him but he knew things about my personality from when I was a kid. Things he was attracted to that my husband has always found to be "amusing quirks" in a slightly belittling way. It just got me thinking - am I totally settling for a friendship/companionship when other people have intimacy (and financial security)? Or am I a crazy person comparing the fantasy of "what could have been" to the reality of a real human?
> 
> If your husband is belittling you in any way, he needs to know that this is causing you to fall out of love with him. When a spouse is no longer in love, they are at risk of an affair. Anyone who meets your needs right now and makes enough deposits in your lovebank will become highly attractive to you. Do not put yourself at risk and work on rebuilding the love you had for your husband. He has more work to do- at least give him an opportunity to stop making lovebusters and start meeting your needs.
> 
> A friend recently mentioned "the love of her life" to me and I felt sad and thought ...I've never HAD a "love of my life" and I guess I never will. (I was crazy about my first husband but he was mostly just using me to raise his kids so he liked me just fine but it wasn't that kind of love I hear others talk about.)
> 
> Your man-picker is broken. Give your current marriage time to see if you two can figure out a way to have your husband meet your needs. If not, you'll need time to work on yourself because it sounds to me like you've picked two men who are using you in their own ways. You don't want to go 0 for 3.
> 
> Anyhow, Hubby is trying *so hard *and I really am enjoying him so much more than I used to, but I still can't shake this feeling of wanting something more for the second half of my life. Half of me is afraid he'll totally get his act together and then I won't have any justification to leave him. The other half is sick to my stomach at the idea of leaving him - like why? why would you just abandon a nice person you took vows to and who is trying so hard to be what you want? Also, he is so dependent on me, I know it's twisted on my part, but if I leave him? OMG I don't know what might happen to him. He talks about suicide sometimes because of all the physical pain he is in now. (He says he would never do that but he'd be ok with it if he died). Ugggggghhhhhhh............
> 
> Help me....!
> 
> Oh, and yes, I know I've been a total enabler.
> 
> The suicide remark makes me think you might be in an abusive situation. Your most important priority now is your safety and mental health. If you do believe that he is at risk of doing something dangerous and harmful, please leave immediately and get help.
> 
> Thoughts?????


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## TheTruthHurts

I think you're mentally and emotionally gone but too codependent to act. That will result in resentment.

I've always thought separation was a horrible idea and a cop out but I wonder if it was made for you.

Have him learn to fend for himself and allow you to figure out what you want


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## Sunny3

Openminded said:


> That's how you got stuck for the last 20 years -- listening to your husband push all your problems off to tomorrow. He sounds overly optimistic without a real plan to make it happen but he's sure it will all be better very soon. Don't listen.
> 
> Did you used to post here under a different name? The part about wanting an expensive house sounds very familiar but I don't remember the name of that poster from several years ago although her situation was very much like yours. We kept encouraging her to leave but my guess is she didn't.


Take your wife out to have some fun open-minded! Not take her with you to the leisurely part of your routine, or play volleyball, or go on vacation! Take her to have fun like you were 20! Do stupid stuff together! Become for a moment like a child with her and have fun! Maybe not so much fun that you get arrested or wind up an alcoholic, but good old fun whatever that would mean to you both!

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## TheRealMcCoy

WorkingWife said:


> If I do separate my thought is it would be a trial separation...


I was going to say that a veteran with 1200 posts makes the rookie mistake of using thoughts of infidelity to make her point? Does she not READ this forum? The "she's cheating" crowd that had taken over this forum will concentrate on that and ignore everything else.

But there you go. Like the broken clock that's right twice a day they nailed it here. You want to party for a while. That's what "temporary separation" means. Either that or you don't have the balls to do what you have to do. What's best for EVERYBODY. But you are a hard ass business owner. Kickin' ass and taking names while your lethargic husband bumbles along. You can handle it. 

So that only leaves partying. 

Enjoy.


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## Buddy400

WorkingWife said:


> His illness honestly feels to me like his subconscious sabotaging his body to give him an excuse for why he is not living up to his potential (which is vast).


I agree (I have chronic pain as well). 

I think I recommended Dr. Sarno's book before. It's about exactly this.

https://www.amazon.com/Mindbody-Pre...?ie=UTF8&qid=1493388976&sr=8-2&keywords=Sarno


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## Buddy400

Jessica38 said:


> I don't think wanting her husband to earn any money and spending her into debt is a *high* need for financial security


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## She'sStillGotIt

WorkingWife said:


> ....I cook, he just set something up on my phone for me, he gets the cars registered, does a lot of cleaning, stuff like that....


This is what I don't get. He's capable of doing administrative paperwork type stuff, AND he's capable of scrubbing toilets and vacuuming etc., but he's NOT "able" to work? I mean, sure he's probably not able to do some he-man construction type job but he doesn't sound so 'disabled' that he couldn't do some kind of desk job or call center type work. If he can sit on the couch at home, he can sit at a desk and earn a paycheck. That's how I see it.


> So recently I ran into an old grade school friend and he told me he'd always had the biggest crush on me. I was stunned because I was not considered hot as a kid. ANYHOW, this guy is also married but I could tell he was like *really* attracted to me. To me. I barely remembered him but he knew things about my personality from when I was a kid. Things he was attracted to that my husband has always found to be "amusing quirks" in a slightly belittling way. It just got me thinking - am I totally settling for a friendship/companionship when other people have intimacy (and financial security)? Or am I a crazy person comparing the fantasy of "what could have been" to the reality of a real human?


You've heard the expression, "the world is full of married men?" Well, the world is equally full of married men on the MAKE, like your old friend who did his best to charm you.



> Also, he is so dependent on me, I know it's twisted on my part, but if I leave him? OMG I don't know what might happen to him. He talks about suicide sometimes because of all the physical pain he is in now. (He says he would never do that but he'd be ok with it if he died). Ugggggghhhhhhh............


So not only did he manage to get you to begin supporting him RIGHT from the start, but he's successfully managed to get you to continue supporting him all these years AND he's managed to guilt you into never being able to leave. Ugh. Quite honestly, I'm from the old school and have no respect at all for men who choose not to work and instead let a woman support them. That's just so unappealing.

But I absolutely agree with Elizabeth - why in hell should ANYONE have to wait years and years for someone to finally get their **** together? Life is too damned short.

I would have left *long *ago.


----------



## Buddy400

WorkingWife said:


> *He has also borrowed a lot from his mom who is on fixed income*, though we are paying that back, but still, it bothers me that he was able to do that when we could have moved into a studio apartment or out of our expensive area instead.


Further proof that he's a user.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

TheRealMcCoy said:


> So that only leaves partying. Enjoy.


Well, he caught you in a your diabolical plot to PARTY at almost 50 years old, OP. Damn, and I thought you were hiding it so well.

I love how some people CLEARLY don't read (or can't comprehend) an entire post and instead take ONE fact from it and start running their agenda. 

I'll assume he must have *missed* the part about your husband expecting YOU to support him from Day #1 and how your husband hasn't been intimate with you for YEARS and how he brings nothing to the table - until very recently when he suddenly decided at the ripe old age of 50 to try to be a better husband.

All those years YOU busted your ass while _he_ coasted and contributed *nothing* to the marriage was apparently lost on some posters.

But you go ahead - party 'til you puke, OP. :rofl::rofl:


----------



## TheRealMcCoy

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'll assume he must have *missed* the part about your husband expecting YOU to support him from Day #1 and how your husband hasn't been intimate with you for YEARS and how he brings nothing to the table - until very recently when he suddenly decided at the ripe old age of 50 to try to be a better husband.


The only part I "missed" is why this separation is temporary.


----------



## Abc123wife

She'sStillGotIt said:


> This is what I don't get. He's capable of doing administrative paperwork type stuff, AND he's capable of scrubbing toilets and vacuuming etc., but he's NOT "able" to work? I mean, sure he's probably not able to do some he-man construction type job but he doesn't sound so 'disabled' that he couldn't do some kind of desk job or call center type work. If he can sit on the couch at home, he can sit at a desk and earn a paycheck. That's how I see it.
> *long *ago.


This is exactly what I was wondering. @WorkingWife, It seems from your posts that you can't hold to any boundaries with you H. He doesn't work, he spends beyond your means, he wants nicer housing in an expensive region. Holy Smokes! You are paying $30k a year on rent! And after all your years being married, you don't even have a house? What will happen when you no longer can work? Will you ever be able to retire?

So.. I suggest you open a credit card in your name only with no authorized users (him). Cut the all current credit cards with his name on them (close accounts). Then put a hold on your credit so he can't get any new ones. Hold firm to no new expenses until ALL debt is paid off. Just practice the mantra with him, "Can't get that now. Too much debt." HOLD TO IT!!!

Biggest item - Insist he gets a job, even if it is a greeter at WM. If senior citizens can do that, your husband can. If he refuses just tell him it is his last chance at staying married to you. He will have to become employed if you divorce. Btw, why are you paying back the loan from his mom? Make no further payments. Let him do that with his new job!

Finally, if your business is a consulting firm (you), then there are no real assets. Your brain is the only asset in that type of business (besides maybe office furnture and suppplies). It would seem if you get divorced, he can have half the business but that might be just a client list that is worthless to him. You would have to probably pay alimony for a limited time (up to half the time if the marriage in many states). But it would be based on your income now and his potential income. Can you stall the product launch for awhile? Once that launches, you may have to pay him half its profits forever.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

WorkingWife said:


> F
> 
> 
> 1. I have a product for my business that should be launch ready in a couple months. Every time I talk to my H about money stress, he says "just get the product launched and then we'll talk." He thinks it's going to make tons of money. (He plans to help with the marketing for it.) I feel like if we are going to end up separated or divorced, I need to do it *before *the business starts making more money because of alimony.
> 
> 2. Not having my product out yet, business has been slow lately and suddenly we were almost out of money again. If I didn't have him, I could easily live on what I make, work less, relax more, and save money. I feel like I could fall back in love with him if I put my mind to it and opened my heart - but I feel like that is not a SAFE thing to do for my financial future. I am extremely resentful that he has let us get to this point. I know it's my fault for giving in all the time but I also know that I would NEVER let someone else give up their financial security for my immediate comfort.
> 
> 3. My divorced parents are both in their mid to late 80's. When they pass I'll probably inherit a over 100K from each of them. My father in particular does not want my H getting part of the inheritance, and while I have always had the attitude of "What's mine is ours as we are married" I feel the same way. He is trying to change but so far he has spent EVERY dime I have made. When I talk about moving and buying a house he says he's on board and then starts showing me $600K homes as his bottom standard. I really don't feel SAFE financially being married to him. He seems to be changing but what if I stay and then inherit and he spends it or we get divorced and he gets half of it. I hate myself for thinking that way, but it is a real concern.


These issues listed here, are enough in my opinion to justify your feelings to get out. If you are still married when your parents pass, you need to make sure you put that inheritance money where your H cannot get to it, or it will be GONE. 

In regards to his health issues (tying in with the above issues), is he REALLY too sick to work?? It doesnt sound like it from what you have posted. If his illness really is debilitating enough that it makes it impossible for him to work, then he should be collecting disability. Then at least he'd be contributing. I have serious issues with a man who WILL NOT WORK. Sorry it may be an old fashioned viewpoint, but it is what it is. (This actually applies to women too, especially when there are no children or children who attend school full time... go to work. But a man willing to live off his wife does not get my respect.) 

That said... The final decision as to your "lifestyle" should ulitmately be up to you. For him to make demands as ridiculous as a $600K home is out of line, in my opinion. Sorry, but if that is how he thinks he is entitled to live, then he needs to get his ass to work. (this in no way is to imply its ok to withhold essentials either... there is a post in the financial sub forum here where the husband wont even give the wife money for groceries...) From what you have described, you could probably put away a comfortable savings if you were on your own living within your means. 

This added with the fact that he refuses to socialize, your almost non existent sex life, and his smart aleck way of communicating... I understand your unhappiness. It sounds like the two of you would be ok as just friends, but are not really marriage partners. I think you would find more satisfaction being on your own, without him dragging you down, and he may be able to find someone who is more ok with all his "quirks" and issues, who knows. This is YOUR life, and only YOU know what would be best for it.


----------



## WorkingWife

Openminded said:


> Did you used to post here under a different name? The part about wanting an expensive house sounds very familiar but I don't remember the name of that poster from several years ago although her situation was very much like yours. We kept encouraging her to leave but my guess is she didn't.


I don't think that was me, I have only been WorkingWife on here. I have complained about my H a few times, and I'm sure the money situation - my supporting us - came up. Some people thought he was a jerk when I posted before, some seemed to think I was a spoiled princess. I don't remember many encouraging me to leave but again, I think this was a different person.

Thank you everyone for your insight. I'll post more tomorrow.


----------



## WorkingWife

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Well, he caught you in a your diabolical plot to PARTY at almost 50 years old, OP. Damn, and I thought you were hiding it so well.
> 
> I love how some people CLEARLY don't read (or can't comprehend) an entire post and instead take ONE fact from it and start running their agenda.
> 
> I'll assume he must have *missed* the part about your husband expecting YOU to support him from Day #1 _*and how your husband hasn't been intimate with you for YEARS*_ and how he brings nothing to the table - until very recently when he suddenly decided at the ripe old age of 50 to try to be a better husband.
> 
> All those years YOU busted your ass while _he_ coasted and contributed *nothing* to the marriage was apparently lost on some posters.
> 
> But you go ahead - party 'til you puke, OP. :rofl::rofl:


Thank you. I'm going to post more tomorrow. But I did want to clarify - he has not been MY idea of INTIMATE - I can never relax and truly be myself with him because he's judgmental and easily irritated. Though that is what he's trying to improve. He has had sex with me. It has not been the passionate sex I've know before him or what I want, and his reservedness makes me feel very inhibited which I never was before him, but I don't want to create the impression he withholds sex. He even said the other day he was going to try to do more there. But I know from the last 20 years that sex with him will never be the carefree, intimate experience I've had before and that I've been longing for. :-(


----------



## WorkingWife

Buddy400 said:


> I agree (I have chronic pain as well).
> 
> I think I recommended Dr. Sarno's book before. It's about exactly this.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mindbody-Pre...?ie=UTF8&qid=1493388976&sr=8-2&keywords=Sarno


Buddy, was that you? Well, I got that book for him. He refused to read it so far. Even though he admits there is probably a mind body connection, he said thanks but he has other books he plans to read first, and other programs he plans to try, recommended by another friend...

I really think I'm done.


----------



## chillymorn69

WorkingWife said:


> Buddy, was that you? Well, I got that book for him. He refused to read it so far. Even though he admits there is probably a mind body connection, he said thanks but he has other books he plans to read first, and other programs he plans to try, recommended by another friend...
> 
> I had an interesting lunch today with a friend who is about 20 years older than me and who likes him very much but who says she has always felt he controlled me and frankly thinks our relationship is abusive on his part, not physically, but controlling. She's known us about as long as we've been married and said she saw it from the very beginning. She thinks I need to see a lawyer and a shrink and that he may be a good guy but is not for me and she's always been worried about me. She and her husband are like best friends with my H and me althoug we don't get out a lot, but we've spent many Christmas Eves and Thanksgivings together.
> 
> I really think I'm done.


Good luck!


----------



## Openminded

WorkingWife said:


> I don't think that was me, I have only been WorkingWife on here. I have complained about my H a few times, and I'm sure the money situation - my supporting us - came up. Some people thought he was a jerk when I posted before, some seemed to think I was a spoiled princess. I don't remember many encouraging me to leave but again, I think this was a different person.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your insight. I'll post more tomorrow.


Your situation is probably more common than I realized.


----------



## WorkingWife

3Xnocharm said:


> In regards to his health issues (tying in with the above issues), is he REALLY too sick to work?? It doesnt sound like it from what you have posted. If his illness really is debilitating enough that it makes it impossible for him to work, then he should be collecting disability. Then at least he'd be contributing. I have serious issues with a man who WILL NOT WORK. Sorry it may be an old fashioned viewpoint, but it is what it is. (This actually applies to women too, especially when there are no children or children who attend school full time... go to work. But a man willing to live off his wife does not get my respect.)


I don't know. I think that if he had an actual job, it would distract him from a lot of his ailments, but this last year or two he's been getting migraines and sometimes they last for days. He used to always find the stamina when he wanted to do something - like go to a ball game - but was always sick when he didn't want to do something - like visit with family. Now he has been canceling things I know he used to love doing because of the migraines.

What I do also know though is that there was a time when he was not sick and he went through spurts where he would pursue work for awhile but then procrastinate for months. I financially supported us at least 75% our whole relationship.


----------



## WorkingWife

Abc123wife said:


> This is exactly what I was wondering. @WorkingWife, It seems from your posts that you can't hold to any boundaries with you H. He doesn't work, he spends beyond your means, he wants nicer housing in an expensive region. Holy Smokes! You are paying $30k a year on rent! And after all your years being married, you don't even have a house? What will happen when you no longer can work? Will you ever be able to retire?


When I can no longer work? That is my huge fear. I am totally SCREWED. I have a friend with no family who got bad health issues, lost jobs, and literally became homeless. Every time I try to help her my H gets really irritated because really the situation is her own fault but I keep saying - that could be ME in 10 years if something happened to my health. 



Abc123wife said:


> So.. I suggest you open a credit card in your name only with no authorized users (him). Cut the all current credit cards with his name on them (close accounts). Then put a hold on your credit so he can't get any new ones. Hold firm to no new expenses until ALL debt is paid off. Just practice the mantra with him, "Can't get that now. Too much debt." HOLD TO IT!!!


This is a good idea. Because we have the business and business cards I don't know if I can just do this but I do plan to talk to a lawyer and find out my best course of action. He *has *stopped spending, because he see's we're broke and because he doesn't want to lose me but the more I think about being free of him, the more liberated I feel, and I fear the damage is done.



Abc123wife said:


> Biggest item - Insist he gets a job, even if it is a greeter at WM. If senior citizens can do that, your husband can. If he refuses just tell him it is his last chance at staying married to you. He will have to become employed if you divorce.


That is what all my friends say but I honestly think he might commit suicide before taking a job like that. He has studied internet marketing a lot and claims that's what he's going to do (with my product, and then with other things). He has been self employed all his adult life and feels he could not get a normal job at this point. But I have to accept that he's a very smart, personalbe, talented person and he will figure it out, whether he does something self employed (he'd be great if he could stop procrastinating and follow through) or whether he takes a regular job somewhere.



Abc123wife said:


> Btw, why are you paying back the loan from his mom? Make no further payments. Let him do that with his new job!


Several reasons, the main one, he pushed for all the spending and nicer home, etc. but I did go along with it. The first time he borrowed money from her it was to pay the taxes on my business for the year because we had used all the income to pay rent and not done the quarterlies. This was all HIM, but I just sat there and let it happen like I had no control. I would have lived in a studio apt. or mobile home before I would let someone else pay my bills, but I let him persuade me to go along with the nice house and I said nothing when he compulsively started buying expensive thing when we were broke. So I feel responsible.

Also, I thought we were paying back $500 a month, but the other day he said we'd been doing $1,000 - as if he'd told me that (i KNOW he hadn't) regardless money is tight again so we're currently just buying all her groceries, cable tv, phone, internet, not giving additional money. But all she has is social security and her rent eats up 75% of that. (I think she has a small savings of about $40K)

I know she totally enabled his father who did the same thing to her, only she never did leave. I care about her but I also feel an obligation due to the fact that my H put her in this situation. (She gave $200K to his sister for a home that she got foreclosed on and she is paying nothing back that we know of.)




Abc123wife said:


> Finally, if your business is a consulting firm (you), then there are no real assets. Your brain is the only asset in that type of business (besides maybe office furnture and suppplies). It would seem if you get divorced, he can have half the business but that might be just a client list that is worthless to him. You would have to probably pay alimony for a limited time (up to half the time if the marriage in many states). But it would be based on your income now and his potential income. Can you stall the product launch for awhile? Once that launches, you may have to pay him half its profits forever.


Yeah, I'm definitely putting it off until after I see a lawyer.


----------



## WorkingWife

TheRealMcCoy said:


> I was going to say that a veteran with 1200 posts makes the rookie mistake of using thoughts of infidelity to make her point? Does she not READ this forum? The "she's cheating" crowd that had taken over this forum will concentrate on that and ignore everything else.


I have 1200 posts? God, I DO like to talk! Anyhow - yeah I knew that would grab some people's attention, though I didn't realize it would obliterate my other points. I put it in because everything I felt with that guy was so textbook of what I read of emotional affairs that I thought maybe it was playing a bigger role in this than I knew. When I first posted, just a couple days ago, I really wanted help analyzing my situation objectively. But I cut off contact with FB guy some time ago and the more I think in a focused way, and talk to friends and family who know me, the more I realize I want a divorce and deep down I have known that for a very long time, I just kept making excuses for him and myself and hunting for a reason not to face that.



TheRealMcCoy said:


> But there you go. Like the broken clock that's right twice a day they nailed it here. You want to party for a while. That's what "temporary separation" means. Either that or you don't have the balls to do what you have to do. What's best for EVERYBODY. But you are a hard ass business owner. Kickin' ass and taking names while your lethargic husband bumbles along. You can handle it.
> 
> So that only leaves partying.
> 
> Enjoy.


Thank you. I could use a little partying at this point.  I have gone from "am I not realizing/appreciating what I have?" to "I can't take this anymore." in just two days of posting on here, so I have found clarity. My H really is trying hard to be a better husband in every way but I am looking at him through different eyes and if we took all the money and family issues away, I realize he is not the person I want to be with. I like his personality but it is too frustrating to try to have an intimate relationship with him because of his communication (or lack there of) style. 

Feeling guilty is my only obstacle in leaving. My first husband drank excessively and cheated and used me to raise his kids. When we divorced we both wanted out but even if he had not, I did not feel guilty, he was clearly the A-hole in the situation. Here I feel guilty because he is trying and I do love him. But he's going to have to figure it out. I don't want to sacrifice the rest of my life because I feel bad for my poor broken husband. 

Years ago, in the span of a month, I had two different friends say to me "I love being around you because I always feel so good about myself when I am with you." This was before I even married him and I remember thinking when one of them said it "I actually feel worse about myself when I am with him." I tried to break up but, as you put it, I didn't have the balls when he needed me so. Now here I am. What a mess I have made. 

I want to ask HOW, HOW do you leave someone who loves you and is trying their best? But I realize all I have to do is do it.


----------



## Abc123wife

WorkingWife said:


> When I can no longer work? That is my huge fear. I am totally SCREWED. I have a friend with no family who got bad health issues, lost jobs, and literally became homeless. Every time I try to help her my H gets really irritated because really the situation is her own fault but I keep saying - that could be ME in 10 years if something happened to my health.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good idea. Because we have the business and business cards I don't know if I can just do this but I do plan to talk to a lawyer and find out my best course of action. He *has *stopped spending, because he see's we're broke and because he doesn't want to lose me but the more I think about being free of him, the more liberated I feel, and I fear the damage is done.
> 
> 
> 
> That is what all my friends say but I honestly think he might commit suicide before taking a job like that. He has studied internet marketing a lot and claims that's what he's going to do (with my product, and then with other things). He has been self employed all his adult life and feels he could not get a normal job at this point. But I have to accept that he's a very smart, personalbe, talented person and he will figure it out, whether he does something self employed (he'd be great if he could stop procrastinating and follow through) or whether he takes a regular job somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Several reasons, the main one, he pushed for all the spending and nicer home, etc. but I did go along with it. The first time he borrowed money from her it was to pay the taxes on my business for the year because we had used all the income to pay rent and not done the quarterlies. This was all HIM, but I just sat there and let it happen like I had no control. I would have lived in a studio apt. or mobile home before I would let someone else pay my bills, but I let him persuade me to go along with the nice house and I said nothing when he compulsively started buying expensive thing when we were broke. So I feel responsible.
> 
> Also, I thought we were paying back $500 a month, but the other day he said we'd been doing $1,000 - as if he'd told me that (i KNOW he hadn't) regardless money is tight again so we're currently just buying all her groceries, cable tv, phone, internet, not giving additional money. But all she has is social security and her rent eats up 75% of that. (I think she has a small savings of about $40K)
> 
> I know she totally enabled his father who did the same thing to her, only she never did leave. I care about her but I also feel an obligation due to the fact that my H put her in this situation. (She gave $200K to his sister for a home that she got foreclosed on and she is paying nothing back that we know of.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm definitely putting it off until after I see a lawyer.


I don't want to be disrespectful, but you sound very wishy washy, like a big pushover. And I have a feeling your husband knows this and uses it to his advantage. He will never change until he is forced to change. He is too good to work for someone else or some lowly position, but he is willing to let his wife support him and drive her into huge debt doing it? How about he work a job and spend time after work each day to get his marketing company off the ground? That is how most people who want to be self-employed do it. I think you could do him a big favor by putting your foot down and saying no more! Push the overgrown birdie out of the nest. He will manage to fly and may end up soaring high if forced to. In the meantime, move to the small studio apartment or trailer (you rent month to month now, right?). If you work from home and mostly by phone or computer, can't you move to a lower cost of living location even if it is a distance from where you are now? Sell off all the expensive stuff you've bought, cut back the life style, tell him to get a job or he can somehow support himself while you move firward on a new path. Practice that mantra "can't afford that!" And maybe add, "No, I do not want that!" Otherwise, if you keep going along with his demands for bigger house, expensive toys, expensive seminar courses that don't lead to anything, then you are responsible for creating the lazy entitled husband.

Oh, the suicide threats - seriously, he would kill himself because it is beneath him to take a lowly position, work a job like the rest if humanity? If that us so, get him in contact with medical professionals or call 911 if immediate danger. Otherwise, you can't protect him and put your life on hold for fear of his choices.

Finally, what are his physical ailments that have kept him financially dependent on you for 20 years? I know migranes can be awful, but they do not keep people from being employed. And those are more recent, right? Has he ever gone on disability if he can't work? Or has he never held a job long enough to be eligible for disability?


----------



## WorkingWife

Thank you for your thoughtful, helpful post.



Jessica38 said:


> You have a high need for Financial Support and your husband hasn't been able to make this happen. By his lack of providing/saving adequately for retirement, he's lovebusting you.
> 
> It sounds like you also have a need for Family Commitment. Is there a reason why he doesn't like your family? Are they disrespectful or rude to him in any way? Do they criticize him for not being more financially secure?


I actually think these are the type of needs that are not REAL high for me, at least not the Financial Support, but because I've not had them met at all with him, I've become very focused on them. 



Jessica38 said:


> Your man-picker is broken. Give your current marriage time to see if you two can figure out a way to have your husband meet your needs. If not, you'll need time to work on yourself because it sounds to me like you've picked two men who are using you in their own ways. You don't want to go 0 for 3.
> The suicide remark makes me think you might be in an abusive situation. Your most important priority now is your safety and mental health. If you do believe that he is at risk of doing something dangerous and harmful, please leave immediately and get help.


No I don't want to go 0 for 3. I didn't want to go 0 for 1... I can totally see how my man picker is broken. I am going to see a therapist.
I do not believe he is at risk of doing anything harmful to me. He has never even yelled at me or called me names, let alone done something violent to me. However, when I have talked about our relationship with friends and family over the years, I have felt like one of those battered wives in that I have always made excuses for how hard he is trying, how he doesn't feel well, etc. 
Multiple friends and relatives have said they think he controls me. He definitely isolated me from my friends and family the first 15 or so years of our relationship by just being "miserable" or "disinterested" or "sick" anytime any of them were around. The last couple years he's been really nice when they visit, but he has no interest in building relationships with them.


He can give you a reason for why he does not like any person in my family. And some of them are understandably not likable (like my unhappy/critical mother and my alcoholic drug addict brother, and my overly chipper alcoholic step mother...). And I have always minimized his exposure to them. For example I've never had my brother to our house and haven't seen him in years even though I do love him and enjoy his company. 

But what bothers me about my H and family is his blanket dislike of everyone in my family. Also the fact that he's introduced me to all his highschool/college age friends and I've been open to them and worked on building friendships with them. He flat out does not want to meet any of my friends. I can visit them, or if one were to come visit us, he'd be polite (at this point) but it's my friend visiting me, he's doing something else 90% of the time. He wouldn't go out to dinner or sit and talk with us, or anything like that. He actually did drive my cousin and her kids and me around sight seeing last time she visited. That was the only time he's done something like that and he was wonderful. They loved him and had a great time. That is an example of his trying to be better for me. 

However, I two back to back out of town family events - my mom's 90th birthday party and a cousin's kids graduation party. He is planning to fly up for the 90th birthday party, but then I'm taking him an hour back to the airport that evening. He does not want to go to the graduation party with me. He has nothing against my cousin's other than "They bore me. I don't have anything in common with them. I hate talking with them." (Myself, I love talking with them. I can talk with them for hours about things my H won't discuss.)

I want to move near my step daughter who has small children. He has finally agreed to move to a cheaper area (though we've not agreed on the type of home...) but he wants to go anywhere EXCEPT near her. When I asked why he says it's because they have a lot of tattoos and are atheist and he doesn't want them in our lives, influencing our future Foster children. Is that legitimate? It could be. But it's not like they talk about religion. My step daughter is very sweet and wholesome and he likes her just fine. 

I know this is a DJ on MY part but I believe he starts with the approach that he does not want to like anyone I was close to before he came along and then looks for a reason to rule them out.

Right now my plan is to see a lawyer to get to the bottom of where I stand financially, and then get a place to stay for a few months. I have a few options. Then I will not tell him until I am actually ready to walk out the door.


----------



## TheRealMcCoy

WorkingWife said:


> Feeling guilty is my only obstacle in leaving.


Let me see if I can actually help here. 



WorkingWife said:


> We've been married about 13 years but a couple about 20. I have had misgivings our whole relationship.



Go back about 18 years. You were young and in love. But you still had misgivings. I'll bet you said something like this to someone back then. Maybe a good friend. maybe a stranger you were venting to. Maybe you just told yourself. But you said it to someone:



WorkingWife said:


> Feeling guilty is my only obstacle in leaving.


So you didn't leave. But imagine if you had? You would be a distant memory by now and he would be long happy with someone else. But he's not. His world hasn't crashed yet. He didn't get that learning experience in his 30's because you were "unsure". He didn't get to start over when he was still young. You'll feel guilty if you LEAVE HIM? You should feel guilty for stealing 20 years of his life. Because it was easier for you to settle. Don't be selfish again. Set him free. Give him the rest of his life to find happiness. Don't steal another day from him.


----------



## TheRealMcCoy

You help him more than you help yourself by leaving. Putting "temporary" in the separation does nobody any good. He needs to feel the pain to get the help he needs. The more, the better. Trust me.


----------



## WorkingWife

TheRealMcCoy said:


> Let me see if I can actually help here.
> 
> 
> Go back about 18 years. You were young and in love. But you still had misgivings. I'll bet you said something like this to someone back then. Maybe a good friend. maybe a stranger you were venting to. Maybe you just told yourself. But you said it to someone:
> 
> So you didn't leave. But imagine if you had? You would be a distant memory by now and he would be long happy with someone else. But he's not. His world hasn't crashed yet. He didn't get that learning experience in his 30's because you were "unsure". He didn't get to start over when he was still young. You'll feel guilty if you LEAVE HIM? You should feel guilty for stealing 20 years of his life. Because it was easier for you to settle. Don't be selfish again. Set him free. Give him the rest of his life to find happiness. Don't steal another day from him.


Thank you. You are helpful. I do feel guilty for staying but I also feel he is just as guilty because I did say something - TO HIM. I tried to break up with him a couple times and each time he made a grand gesture and all kinds of promises of how different and great the future was going to be. I know that I was very weak and wrong to stay and I am responsible for that. But he also promised me he'd make money, promised me we'd have children, promised me he'd be more open and intimate. Promised me he'd embrace my family. 

My brain and gut knew better but I married him anyhow. Now he is really trying to be a better husband but ever since I first posted this thread and started seriously considering that I could just divorce him, I felt relief and like what I truly want is out. Now he is being more open and loving and trying to be more of the man I would want to be with and I do feel very guilty. Whether I stay or go.


----------



## Jessica38

WorkingWife said:


> I actually think these are the type of needs that are not REAL high for me, at least not the Financial Support, but because I've not had them met at all with him, I've become very focused on them.
> 
> That's what I mean- you have a high need for your husband to contribute too, because he hasn't to your satisfaction- and it's causing you to lose your love for him. Many spouses don't rate Openness and Honesty as a top 5 need until they've been cheated on, for example, so it makes sense that your lack of financial help from your husband is magnifying this need for you now.
> 
> 
> No I don't want to go 0 for 3. I didn't want to go 0 for 1... I can totally see how my man picker is broken. I am going to see a therapist.
> I do not believe he is at risk of doing anything harmful to me. He has never even yelled at me or called me names, let alone done something violent to me. However, when I have talked about our relationship with friends and family over the years, I have felt like one of those battered wives in that I have always made excuses for how hard he is trying, how he doesn't feel well, etc.
> Multiple friends and relatives have said they think he controls me. He definitely isolated me from my friends and family the first 15 or so years of our relationship by just being "miserable" or "disinterested" or "sick" anytime any of them were around. The last couple years he's been really nice when they visit, but he has no interest in building relationships with them.
> 
> Is he manipulative in other ways? It definitely sounds like you need to work on boundaries. There's a great book called Boundaries in Marriage that talks about how to start doing this in your current relationship.
> 
> He can give you a reason for why he does not like any person in my family. And some of them are understandably not likable (like my unhappy/critical mother and my alcoholic drug addict brother, and my overly chipper alcoholic step mother...). And I have always minimized his exposure to them. For example I've never had my brother to our house and haven't seen him in years even though I do love him and enjoy his company.
> 
> That's good- it sounds like you do respect your husband's wishes and try to put him first.
> 
> But what bothers me about my H and family is his blanket dislike of everyone in my family. Also the fact that he's introduced me to all his highschool/college age friends and I've been open to them and worked on building friendships with them. He flat out does not want to meet any of my friends. I can visit them, or if one were to come visit us, he'd be polite (at this point) but it's my friend visiting me, he's doing something else 90% of the time. He wouldn't go out to dinner or sit and talk with us, or anything like that. He actually did drive my cousin and her kids and me around sight seeing last time she visited. That was the only time he's done something like that and he was wonderful. They loved him and had a great time. That is an example of his trying to be better for me.
> 
> I wonder if it has to do with his lack of a job/financial contribution to you, that he's afraid of being called out by your family, and feels more comfortable with this cousin and children for some reason, like maybe they won't call him out and he knows it?
> 
> However, I two back to back out of town family events - my mom's 90th birthday party and a cousin's kids graduation party. He is planning to fly up for the 90th birthday party, but then I'm taking him an hour back to the airport that evening. He does not want to go to the graduation party with me. He has nothing against my cousin's other than "They bore me. I don't have anything in common with them. I hate talking with them." (Myself, I love talking with them. I can talk with them for hours about things my H won't discuss.)
> 
> He's not invested in the marriage, it sounds like to me. Have you investigated a possible EA or PA? How often do you two have sex?
> 
> I want to move near my step daughter who has small children. He has finally agreed to move to a cheaper area (though we've not agreed on the type of home...) but he wants to go anywhere EXCEPT near her. When I asked why he says it's because they have a lot of tattoos and are atheist and he doesn't want them in our lives, influencing our future Foster children. Is that legitimate? It could be. But it's not like they talk about religion. My step daughter is very sweet and wholesome and he likes her just fine.
> 
> I know this is a DJ on MY part but I believe he starts with the approach that he does not want to like anyone I was close to before he came along and then looks for a reason to rule them out.
> 
> Right now my plan is to see a lawyer to get to the bottom of where I stand financially, and then get a place to stay for a few months. I have a few options. Then I will not tell him until I am actually ready to walk out the door.


I'm glad you're taking the steps to do what you need to do- keep us posted. Something isn't right with him and he's trying too hard to keep you from loved ones. It could be embarrassment on his part, or an A, or it could be that he's abusive. Thoughts?


----------



## WorkingWife

Jessica38 said:


> I'm glad you're taking the steps to do what you need to do- keep us posted. Something isn't right with him and he's trying too hard to keep you from loved ones. It could be embarrassment on his part, or an A, or it could be that he's abusive. Thoughts?


I do not think he is in any fear of being called out. No one in my family would do that or have ever been anything but nice to him and supportive of us. At least the first several years we were together. In the last 2-3 years I decided I was going to just visit family once a year without him. I got an EARFUL of what they really thought then - that he is a millstone around my neck and that he controls me and that I should divorce him.

He's not afraid of being called out but I do think he is possesive in a way to protect his image. He is afraid if I get alone with a girlfriend I will badmouth him. (And recently I have...) From the very beginning it felt to me like two things:

1. He was afraid I'd complain about our relationship - so not that anyone would call him out, but that I would tell them and they would know. He is extremely private and I am extremely open. I think that's why he didn't want me to pursue any of my pre-existing relationships. But friends that HE finds for us we both enjoy and have a nice time with. I think he sees my friends and family as a threat to the hold he has had on me.

2. He just didn't want to. If my friends/family are not the exact person he would have sought out on his own, he just does not want to be around them. Like I said he HAS been trying harder and been very nice to people when they visited (though still avoids them as much as possible he absolutely hates having company in the house - except for his friends but even that is extremely rare.)

What it feels like to me, and what he has actually said it is, is that he is extremely self centered. Anything I do for someone else is something I am not doing for him.

Now he knows I am not happy and thinking of leaving. He is really trying and improving dramatically. But once I said outloud to myself that I was thinking of divorce, so far, I feel better about life when I picture my future without him. 

I know it's not right to make your spouse do something he does not want to do, like visit your family. And frankly I enjoy them more without him at this point. But what my heart desires, is to have a spouse who genuinely *wants *to visit my family. I could get him to move where I want and spend time with my family if I threatened to leave him. But I don't want to make him do anything. I want a relationship with someone who wants it too.

Is he manipulative in other ways? I am not sure. I am doing much better setting boundaries and making my needs known since I found marriage builders and he is respecting that (he really has not choice...). But I am very easy going and pretty indifferent to things that are important to others. I have just gone with the flow our whole relationship and not bucked him on anything. When I started standing up for myself and saying "no, I don't want to do that." he definitely tried to use "that hurts my feelings" or "I'm so disappointed" and that killed me - but I realized he has disappointed me hundreds of times and I've survived just fine, so I started behaving impervious to it and he has stopped doing it for the most part.

He also told me today that he's been researching free concerts in the parks in our area for this summer as a way for us to spend more time together. That's an example of him trying. Of course, if he doesn't feel well we'll cancel but he's also trying very hard with diet and exercise to feel better. It seems to be working a little.

Is he abusive? Maybe I don't understand exactly what people mean by that. He's definitely not physically abusive. But when I read stories or see movies where a female is abused, I totally identify with the part where she's covering for her spouse, pretending she's really happy. In my case, pretending he's only not working because he's sick, or pretending my business is "our" business and he does the marketing.

Here is an example of a little thing he does that makes me feel bad:

We have 3 dogs. One is very old and the other two are new (been with us a little over a year). The follow me everywhere. Sometimes he will say sulky things when they follow me out of the room, like "Go, fine, go with mommy, I know you only love me when she's not around." 

Then the old one has bad knees so sometimes she'll sit at the bottom of the stairs and bark. He'll shout that she wants up and I'll usually go get her because he has a bad back and seldom feels good. So tonight I guess she was at the foot of the stairs but she was quiet. He brought her up to me and while he was carrying her up he said things like "It's ok Rover, I'll take you up to mommy 'cause she doesn't care about you enough to come get you and she doesn't care that I have a bad back." 

Since we have two new dogs I already feel guilty like the old one is fading into the background attention wise, and sometimes I'll walk past her on the couch and not pet her and he'll say something like "Mommy doesn't love you anymore, she has two new dogs." I told him I don't like that and it makes me feel horrible. He says "I'm just joking, it's just a joke!" and I say "I don't like it. I don't find it funny." He is trying not to do it so much, but tonight he made the comments while he carried the old one up the stairs. (He did have a drink tonight and he seldom drinks so maybe his guard was down on trying to not make those "jokes") 

Here's another example of something that JUST happened.
For his health issues his neurologist asked him to give up dairy and gluten for at least 6 months. He's about 3 months in. I cook things he loves and seldom eat dairy or gluten unless it's something I know he does not like (like milk in my tea). I left town for a few days recently and cooked up enough food in advance that he was taken care of the whole time I was gone. He was very grateful. 

OK - so I have these caramel candies in my office and they have dairy in them. He just walked in here. (That's one of the things he's doing to try to improve our marriage - making it a point to come talk to me and make eye contact with me.) I'm starving. While he's talking without thinking about what I was doing, I popped one of the candies in my mouth.

He said something like "Wonderful. You eat that right in front of me. Must be nice." I said something like "Oh, sorry I wasn't thinking" but I must have shown in body language that it irritated me because right away he said "Lighten up, I'm just joking."

I wouldn't consider any of those comments abusive, but over time they wear on me. That is the type of thing he is trying to improve, and having some success, but it is just his natural personality and slips out a lot. He is also saying nice, complimentary things to me now which he used to never do - every joke belittled me. After finding MB I started saying "Can you please just be nice?" And he is doing it some, like telling me I'm pretty and smart etc. I don't know, I just don't know....I don't feel I can be objective.


----------



## TheRealMcCoy

WorkingWife said:


> but ever since I first posted this thread...


OK. Thanks for cutting me some slack. You've been all over the place in the past week or so. I haven't been following you. Now I see where you are. And...WHAT A SHOCK...it follows script perfectly. I have a lot of good news for you. 




WorkingWife said:


> ...*what I truly want is out.* Now he is being more open and loving and trying to be more of the man I would want to be with...


See that bold part? That's the only way it works. You stay with him, he reverts back to the man he was. I'm still with my wife physically. We chose to keep the family together. How did I stay fixed? The famous, seemingly innocuous 7 words she uttered that removed all doubt: she doesn't love me, hasn't for a while, and *NEVER WILL AGAIN*. Those bolded, underlined words again. They are both hilighted the same because they are the same. In their finality.




WorkingWife said:


> Whether I stay or go.


There you go again. Would I have turned into an A-hole again had she come back to me? I don't know. My story ends before that. But from what I've read, I am convinced it is the finality that does it. 

It is best for everybody if you divorce (you CAN remarry. "separation" is BS)). I don't pile on all of the "you enabled him/you settled/it's your fault" BS just to be an A-hole. I do it to convince you that you owe him. You owe yourself. Would I be happier right now if she had walked 20 years ago? I don't know. But my baseline being where I am today, I'd say I couldn't be much worse. 

Set him free. If he needs help understanding what to do next, PM me and I'll send you some advice for him. I wasted a few years thinking I could win her back. I could save him a couple of those.


----------



## TheRealMcCoy

WorkingWife said:


> He said something like "Wonderful. You eat that right in front of me. Must be nice." I said something like "Oh, sorry I wasn't thinking" but I must have shown in body language that it irritated me because right away he said "Lighten up, I'm just joking."
> 
> I wouldn't consider any of those comments abusive, but over time they wear on me.


Wow.

Sorry. The parallels are incredible. 

I made a decision to be a better man. I thought I was doing well. We had a date night. Went to the movies. When we got home (early) and she made a beeline straight to her favorite TV chair (the one with the hubby repellent in the form of shows she knows I despise that she watches for 6 hours a day), I knew I shouldn't have pressed my luck. But I stayed with her. She'll usually flip back and forth to something I don't despise as a courtesy, so I stayed. And made small talk...

Then slipped up like hubby did. But it wasn't body language that made me realize I made a mistake. She let me have it. It was that moment that I realized this can't work. I'm not perfect. I WILL slip up again. Ans she will go back to square one. Every time. It was the moment I started healing. 

I implemented the 180 immediately. It saved my life. It can save your husband's.

The only form of life lower than a wife-abuser is a child molester. Neither one deserves a second chance. So these well meaning folks will give you all the advice you need on how to leave this monster. And leave his blood in your wake. If you want advice on how to save HIM, PM me. It starts with the 180. For the RIGHT reasons.

Good luck in your new life. I envy BOTH of you.


----------



## Diana7

WorkingWife said:


> I do not think he is in any fear of being called out. No one in my family would do that or have ever been anything but nice to him and supportive of us. At least the first several years we were together. In the last 2-3 years I decided I was going to just visit family once a year without him. I got an EARFUL of what they really thought then - that he is a millstone around my neck and that he controls me and that I should divorce him.
> 
> He's not afraid of being called out but I do think he is possesive in a way to protect his image. He is afraid if I get alone with a girlfriend I will badmouth him. (And recently I have...) From the very beginning it felt to me like two things:
> 
> 1. He was afraid I'd complain about our relationship - so not that anyone would call him out, but that I would tell them and they would know. He is extremely private and I am extremely open. I think that's why he didn't want me to pursue any of my pre-existing relationships. But friends that HE finds for us we both enjoy and have a nice time with. I think he sees my friends and family as a threat to the hold he has had on me.
> 
> 2. He just didn't want to. If my friends/family are not the exact person he would have sought out on his own, he just does not want to be around them. Like I said he HAS been trying harder and been very nice to people when they visited (though still avoids them as much as possible he absolutely hates having company in the house - except for his friends but even that is extremely rare.)
> 
> What it feels like to me, and what he has actually said it is, is that he is extremely self centered. Anything I do for someone else is something I am not doing for him.
> 
> Now he knows I am not happy and thinking of leaving. He is really trying and improving dramatically. But once I said outloud to myself that I was thinking of divorce, so far, I feel better about life when I picture my future without him.
> 
> I know it's not right to make your spouse do something he does not want to do, like visit your family. And frankly I enjoy them more without him at this point. But what my heart desires, is to have a spouse who genuinely *wants *to visit my family. I could get him to move where I want and spend time with my family if I threatened to leave him. But I don't want to make him do anything. I want a relationship with someone who wants it too.
> 
> Is he manipulative in other ways? I am not sure. I am doing much better setting boundaries and making my needs known since I found marriage builders and he is respecting that (he really has not choice...). But I am very easy going and pretty indifferent to things that are important to others. I have just gone with the flow our whole relationship and not bucked him on anything. When I started standing up for myself and saying "no, I don't want to do that." he definitely tried to use "that hurts my feelings" or "I'm so disappointed" and that killed me - but I realized he has disappointed me hundreds of times and I've survived just fine, so I started behaving impervious to it and he has stopped doing it for the most part.
> 
> He also told me today that he's been researching free concerts in the parks in our area for this summer as a way for us to spend more time together. That's an example of him trying. Of course, if he doesn't feel well we'll cancel but he's also trying very hard with diet and exercise to feel better. It seems to be working a little.
> 
> Is he abusive? Maybe I don't understand exactly what people mean by that. He's definitely not physically abusive. But when I read stories or see movies where a female is abused, I totally identify with the part where she's covering for her spouse, pretending she's really happy. In my case, pretending he's only not working because he's sick, or pretending my business is "our" business and he does the marketing.
> 
> Here is an example of a little thing he does that makes me feel bad:
> 
> We have 3 dogs. One is very old and the other two are new (been with us a little over a year). The follow me everywhere. Sometimes he will say sulky things when they follow me out of the room, like "Go, fine, go with mommy, I know you only love me when she's not around."
> 
> Then the old one has bad knees so sometimes she'll sit at the bottom of the stairs and bark. He'll shout that she wants up and I'll usually go get her because he has a bad back and seldom feels good. So tonight I guess she was at the foot of the stairs but she was quiet. He brought her up to me and while he was carrying her up he said things like "It's ok Rover, I'll take you up to mommy 'cause she doesn't care about you enough to come get you and she doesn't care that I have a bad back."
> 
> Since we have two new dogs I already feel guilty like the old one is fading into the background attention wise, and sometimes I'll walk past her on the couch and not pet her and he'll say something like "Mommy doesn't love you anymore, she has two new dogs." I told him I don't like that and it makes me feel horrible. He says "I'm just joking, it's just a joke!" and I say "I don't like it. I don't find it funny." He is trying not to do it so much, but tonight he made the comments while he carried the old one up the stairs. (He did have a drink tonight and he seldom drinks so maybe his guard was down on trying to not make those "jokes")
> 
> Here's another example of something that JUST happened.
> For his health issues his neurologist asked him to give up dairy and gluten for at least 6 months. He's about 3 months in. I cook things he loves and seldom eat dairy or gluten unless it's something I know he does not like (like milk in my tea). I left town for a few days recently and cooked up enough food in advance that he was taken care of the whole time I was gone. He was very grateful.
> 
> OK - so I have these caramel candies in my office and they have dairy in them. He just walked in here. (That's one of the things he's doing to try to improve our marriage - making it a point to come talk to me and make eye contact with me.) I'm starving. While he's talking without thinking about what I was doing, I popped one of the candies in my mouth.
> 
> He said something like "Wonderful. You eat that right in front of me. Must be nice." I said something like "Oh, sorry I wasn't thinking" but I must have shown in body language that it irritated me because right away he said "Lighten up, I'm just joking."
> 
> I wouldn't consider any of those comments abusive, but over time they wear on me. That is the type of thing he is trying to improve, and having some success, but it is just his natural personality and slips out a lot. He is also saying nice, complimentary things to me now which he used to never do - every joke belittled me. After finding MB I started saying "Can you please just be nice?" And he is doing it some, like telling me I'm pretty and smart etc. I don't know, I just don't know....I don't feel I can be objective.


To be honest I would never let my family talk so badly and disrespectfully about my husband, I hope you stood up for him. Nor would I ever speak badly about my childrens partners in that way. Probably why he doesn't want to be with them, he must sense they don't like him. Also some people are more introvert and find being with others difficult and draining, I am like that to an extent. 

The remarks about the dogs are nothing. I often tease my husband about the fact that our dog loves him more, its something that we just laugh about. This is just normal banter in a marriage that you describe. 

I appreciate that you are looking for justification to leave him, but honestly I cant see any.


----------



## jld

WorkingWife said:


> I do not think he is in any fear of being called out. No one in my family would do that or have ever been anything but nice to him and supportive of us. At least the first several years we were together. In the last 2-3 years I decided I was going to just visit family once a year without him. I got an EARFUL of what they really thought then - that he is a millstone around my neck and that he controls me and that I should divorce him.
> 
> He's not afraid of being called out but I do think he is possesive in a way to protect his image. He is afraid if I get alone with a girlfriend I will badmouth him. (And recently I have...) From the very beginning it felt to me like two things:
> 
> 1. He was afraid I'd complain about our relationship - so not that anyone would call him out, but that I would tell them and they would know. He is extremely private and I am extremely open. I think that's why he didn't want me to pursue any of my pre-existing relationships. But friends that HE finds for us we both enjoy and have a nice time with. I think he sees my friends and family as a threat to the hold he has had on me.
> 
> 2. He just didn't want to. If my friends/family are not the exact person he would have sought out on his own, he just does not want to be around them. Like I said he HAS been trying harder and been very nice to people when they visited (though still avoids them as much as possible he absolutely hates having company in the house - except for his friends but even that is extremely rare.)
> 
> What it feels like to me, and what he has actually said it is, is that he is extremely self centered. Anything I do for someone else is something I am not doing for him.
> 
> Now he knows I am not happy and thinking of leaving. He is really trying and improving dramatically. But once I said outloud to myself that I was thinking of divorce, so far, I feel better about life when I picture my future without him.
> 
> I know it's not right to make your spouse do something he does not want to do, like visit your family. And frankly I enjoy them more without him at this point. But what my heart desires, is to have a spouse who genuinely *wants *to visit my family. I could get him to move where I want and spend time with my family if I threatened to leave him. But I don't want to make him do anything. I want a relationship with someone who wants it too.
> 
> Is he manipulative in other ways? I am not sure. I am doing much better setting boundaries and making my needs known since I found marriage builders and he is respecting that (he really has not choice...). But I am very easy going and pretty indifferent to things that are important to others. I have just gone with the flow our whole relationship and not bucked him on anything. When I started standing up for myself and saying "no, I don't want to do that." he definitely tried to use "that hurts my feelings" or "I'm so disappointed" and that killed me - but I realized he has disappointed me hundreds of times and I've survived just fine, so I started behaving impervious to it and he has stopped doing it for the most part.
> 
> He also told me today that he's been researching free concerts in the parks in our area for this summer as a way for us to spend more time together. That's an example of him trying. Of course, if he doesn't feel well we'll cancel but he's also trying very hard with diet and exercise to feel better. It seems to be working a little.
> 
> Is he abusive? Maybe I don't understand exactly what people mean by that. He's definitely not physically abusive. But when I read stories or see movies where a female is abused, I totally identify with the part where she's covering for her spouse, pretending she's really happy. In my case, pretending he's only not working because he's sick, or pretending my business is "our" business and he does the marketing.
> 
> Here is an example of a little thing he does that makes me feel bad:
> 
> We have 3 dogs. One is very old and the other two are new (been with us a little over a year). The follow me everywhere. Sometimes he will say sulky things when they follow me out of the room, like "Go, fine, go with mommy, I know you only love me when she's not around."
> 
> Then the old one has bad knees so sometimes she'll sit at the bottom of the stairs and bark. He'll shout that she wants up and I'll usually go get her because he has a bad back and seldom feels good. So tonight I guess she was at the foot of the stairs but she was quiet. He brought her up to me and while he was carrying her up he said things like "It's ok Rover, I'll take you up to mommy 'cause she doesn't care about you enough to come get you and she doesn't care that I have a bad back."
> 
> Since we have two new dogs I already feel guilty like the old one is fading into the background attention wise, and sometimes I'll walk past her on the couch and not pet her and he'll say something like "Mommy doesn't love you anymore, she has two new dogs." I told him I don't like that and it makes me feel horrible. He says "I'm just joking, it's just a joke!" and I say "I don't like it. I don't find it funny." He is trying not to do it so much, but tonight he made the comments while he carried the old one up the stairs. (He did have a drink tonight and he seldom drinks so maybe his guard was down on trying to not make those "jokes")
> 
> Here's another example of something that JUST happened.
> For his health issues his neurologist asked him to give up dairy and gluten for at least 6 months. He's about 3 months in. I cook things he loves and seldom eat dairy or gluten unless it's something I know he does not like (like milk in my tea). I left town for a few days recently and cooked up enough food in advance that he was taken care of the whole time I was gone. He was very grateful.
> 
> OK - so I have these caramel candies in my office and they have dairy in them. He just walked in here. (That's one of the things he's doing to try to improve our marriage - making it a point to come talk to me and make eye contact with me.) I'm starving. While he's talking without thinking about what I was doing, I popped one of the candies in my mouth.
> 
> He said something like "Wonderful. You eat that right in front of me. Must be nice." I said something like "Oh, sorry I wasn't thinking" but I must have shown in body language that it irritated me because right away he said "Lighten up, I'm just joking."
> 
> I wouldn't consider any of those comments abusive, but over time they wear on me. That is the type of thing he is trying to improve, and having some success, but it is just his natural personality and slips out a lot. He is also saying nice, complimentary things to me now which he used to never do - every joke belittled me. After finding MB I started saying "Can you please just be nice?" And he is doing it some, like telling me I'm pretty and smart etc. I don't know, I just don't know....I don't feel I can be objective.


He sounds weak and insecure. Combine that with his not bringing any income (assets?) into the picture, and I really do not see a divorce as a loss.

But you surely will pay alimony. Are you ready for that?


----------



## Openminded

He has depended on you financially for the entire relationship but he resents you for it and punishes you (in a very passive-aggressive way). 

He's on his best behavior now because he's afraid you'll leave him and he'll have to go back to work.


----------



## 269370

bankshot1993 said:


> @WorkingWife
> 
> First off I want to say that I haven't had time to read the entire thread so please forgive me if I'm a little off base or if I'm repeating the sentiments of others, I just wanted to share some thoughts with you after reading your initial post.
> 
> For starters I will tell you something I heard once. somebody once told me if I spend all my time looking for that which is going to make me happy, I will miss out on all that is already making me happy. I never understood it at first but I came to understand that what it meant is that if I'm going to spend my time looking for something to make me happy than I've forgotten to enjoy what I have because to be looking for happiness we must first convince ourselves that we aren't already happy.
> 
> I don't say any of this because I think you should be happy and you are just looking a gift horse in the mouth, I'm saying this as a reminder to you that happiness comes from within. Nobody will ever be able to bring you happiness if you can't first find it within yourself.
> 
> The other thing I wanted to touch on, and maybe I'm reaching here who knows, is that it sounds like you are bored with life right now. I say this only because I see so, so much of the struggles I have been battling myself in what you have written. Struggles that I have come to accept as a mid life crisis. Have you been thinking a lot about "is this it," or "is this all there is to life?" "is this all I can expect"
> 
> *I find myself on a daily basis thinking about these things, Thinking to myself that I don't want to go coasting through this way until I die. I want to feel the excitement of being alive again, I want to feel what its like to feel head over heels in love again. I have been with my wife for over thirty years and all those feeling of excitement have given way to the feelings of routine, mundane familiarity. I've heard all of her stories and she's heard all of mine. we spend our evening in quite reflection because we've run out of things to share. Its comfortable but its boring. I've reached that point in my life where I exist for the simple purpose of existing. I get up, I go to work, I go home and watch tv or go and play softball or go do one of my other activities, then I go to bed so that I can get up in the morning and repeat the process all over again. I've lost the drive to get out of bed and attack the world with zeal.*
> 
> I love my wife but honestly all the excitement left our relationship a long time ago and I find myself wondering everything you are wondering. there is a trade off, security and companionship for excitement and adventure. You know the old saying familiarity breeds contempt, that's because when you've eaten the same peanut butter sandwich a million times that sandwich gets pretty boring.
> 
> I can promise you that those feelings of boredom are never going away but only you can decide what your priorities are. What is important to you? the excitement or the security. Do you trade the security of having a comfortable relationship at home for the danger of not knowing whats around the corner. Let's face it excitement comes from Danger and long term relationships take all the danger out of relationships and replace it with security and comfort, comfort is after all the opposite of danger.
> 
> good luck with whatever you decide. Who knows, maybe if it works out for you I will finally get the courage to pull the plug myself.



That paragraph stuck with me because this is something I am afraid of for my old age. I think it's normal to 'run out of stories' to tell each other at a certain stage. Surely it doesn't mean you have to go and find someone else to have new stories with? Doesn't it make more sense to create new stories *with your current partne*r to talk about: travel together, go out, create some excitement proactively, live a life together. That is what you had in the beginning. You had no stories to tell each other _about_ each other at the beginning at all so at least what you have now should be better than the beginning it seems to me...

That said, I have no idea what to recommend to the OP. It seems like she has kind of decided already. Decision is better than indecision (hopefully). His part of the story is missing and going purely by OP's descriptions it seems it would be better for everyone to dissolve and 'start again' because her feelings are clearly not in the right place and she is just going to end up stringing him along.

Just make sure it is not a mid-life crisis/spare of the moment type decision. Those are rarely smart. If we feel strongly about something, we tend to convince ourselves that this is how we always felt to justify the current urge. This may be the brain tricking you.

On the other hand, his passivity and lack of responsibility in financial matters puts me off (and it's obviously a burden on you).


----------



## WorkingWife

TheRealMcCoy said:


> OK. Thanks for cutting me some slack. You've been all over the place in the past week or so. I haven't been following you. Now I see where you are. And...WHAT A SHOCK...it follows script perfectly. I have a lot of good news for you.
> 
> See that bold part? That's the only way it works. You stay with him, he reverts back to the man he was. I'm still with my wife physically. We chose to keep the family together. How did I stay fixed? The famous, seemingly innocuous 7 words she uttered that removed all doubt: she doesn't love me, hasn't for a while, and *NEVER WILL AGAIN*. Those bolded, underlined words again. They are both hilighted the same because they are the same. In their finality.
> 
> There you go again. Would I have turned into an A-hole again had she come back to me? I don't know. My story ends before that. But from what I've read, I am convinced it is the finality that does it.
> 
> It is best for everybody if you divorce (you CAN remarry. "separation" is BS)). I don't pile on all of the "you enabled him/you settled/it's your fault" BS just to be an A-hole. I do it to convince you that you owe him. You owe yourself. Would I be happier right now if she had walked 20 years ago? I don't know. But my baseline being where I am today, I'd say I couldn't be much worse.
> 
> Set him free. If he needs help understanding what to do next, PM me and I'll send you some advice for him. I wasted a few years thinking I could win her back. I could save him a couple of those.


Thank you, you are very helpful and I have been all over the place. That's how I ended up in this place. I know you are right. The sad thing is that one time when he found out I was thinking of leaving him, he apologized so much for not doing the things he needed to do to be a man/husband but we both aknowledged that if I had just said NO MORE to enabling him years ago, he would have figured SOMETHING out. Because he is very prideful and would not have let himself end up on skid row. 

The same is true now. It will be harder at 53 but I really believe if he has no choice but to sink or swim, he will swim. 

I am so sorry it sounds like you are with your wife in a loveless marriage. Are you sure that is best for the family?


----------



## WorkingWife

Diana7 said:


> To be honest I would never let my family talk so badly and disrespectfully about my husband, I hope you stood up for him. Nor would I ever speak badly about my childrens partners in that way. Probably why he doesn't want to be with them, he must sense they don't like him. Also some people are more introvert and find being with others difficult and draining, I am like that to an extent.


*None *of these remarks came until after we were together about 17 years and H would either not visit my family, or if he did, he would make sure the visit was as short as possible and we saw them as little as possible while we were in town. Some family stopped coming to visit me at all after he was so cold to them and stayed in another room almost the entire time they were here. They would say "he does not like us. We know he does not like us."

H is an introvert. Well, when he does get out, he's very engaging and the last to leave. But both he and I could easily go three months without socializing. I respect that and I understand he hates visitors - it disrupts everything, they're in his chair, they're watching what interest them on the TV, we need to worry about regular meal times to feed them... I totally get it. What I don't understand is that he will have *his *family or friends over to spend the night when they're in town. He takes me to gatherings to see them, both in and our of town. Every single friend or family member of mine from before we were a couple he has tried not to meet and if he did meet them, immediately disliked them. Now he is trying though - he will be gracious if I have someone over. I only have someone over maybe once a year. It's not like I'm flooding him with forced socialization. 

For example, a very good friend of mine that I haven't seen in 20 years was in town with her husband. I've talked about them over the years to my H. I went to meet them for drinks. My H did not want to come (He had a headache). I went without him and they were disappointed he wasn't there. I wasn't mad at him, that's just the way he is, but I do wish my partner wanted to meet my friends and family the way he expects me to meet his. 



Diana7 said:


> The remarks about the dogs are nothing. I often tease my husband about the fact that our dog loves him more, its something that we just laugh about. This is just normal banter in a marriage that you describe.


Well he's not laughing. He sounds genuinely accusatory and sulky. He will say he's just joking if I object to the comment, but he does joke about things a lot and can be funny, this just sounds like he's mad at the dogs and mad at me when he does this.

I'm not saying I want to leave him over this either. Just trying to give concrete examples to get other people's objective viewpoints.



Diana7 said:


> I appreciate that you are looking for justification to leave him, but honestly I cant see any.


The more I post on here the more I feel in my heart that I want out. But I also do not feel objective and that is why I came on here asking, trying to be as candid as possible, in the first place.


----------



## WorkingWife

jld said:


> But you surely will pay alimony. Are you ready for that?


I'm going to talk to a lawyer and find out. I would expect to pay something because he has literally nothing - no disability or any kind of income at all other than what I make with the business. I am ok with that because I helped create this mess. If I hadn't enabled him all these years I am sure he would have become productive. And his health would probably be better because I sincerely think much of his health issues are from him not feeling good about himself - stress, insomnia, and then things just start misfiring...

What I am afraid of is HOW MUCH alimony? I am self employed and sometimes I can bring in a healthy amount, but sometimes I can go a couple months with no income. What if the judge orders something and I don't have it? We have 0 savings/assetts at this point. I recently found out we're $50K in credit card debt - I guess that's how we got through the last couple years when business was slow.


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## AVR1962

I am 54, exhusband is now 57....I left almost 9 months ago after being a couple for 27 years. I did not feel like the man loved me. I think we were just opposite of your situation. I had loved this man, I was attracted to him, I enjoyed being with him and I did everything I could do to make things work but I always felt this resistance. He had told me when he met that he had been burned and I wish I would have listened to that as I don't think he could ever emotionally get close and I think it probably had more to do with his childhood than it did with the ladies in his life as I saw that he burned them and not the other way around.

I am happy that I left. There was no pleasing this man, he wanted to do everything by himself and would just sit the whole day on the computer or playing on his phone. He never showed me he cared or told me he loved me. He did not try to make plans to do things with me, he hardly talked to me. It was like I was his maid, cook, housekeeper and nanny. It was obvious he was interested in other women but sure not apparent that he was interested in me. 

I have no intentions of repeating the same. I knew the only way I was ever going to have a chance at finding love and being loved again was to leave.


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## Elizabeth001

WorkingWife said:


> I'm going to talk to a lawyer and find out. I would expect to pay something because he has literally nothing - no disability or any kind of income at all other than what I make with the business. I am ok with that because I helped create this mess. If I hadn't enabled him all these years I am sure he would have become productive. And his health would probably be better because I sincerely think much of his health issues are from him not feeling good about himself - stress, insomnia, and then things just start misfiring...
> 
> 
> 
> What I am afraid of is HOW MUCH alimony? I am self employed and sometimes I can bring in a healthy amount, but sometimes I can go a couple months with no income. What if the judge orders something and I don't have it? We have 0 savings/assetts at this point. I recently found out we're $50K in credit card debt - I guess that's how we got through the last couple years when business was slow.




You GUESS that's how you got by? You should KNOW. Take over all of the finances ASAP and give him an allowance. If he complains, tell him he is welcome to obtain some sort of income, be it a job or disability and THEN you can readdress the situation (that you'll hopefully be out of by then). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WorkingWife

Abc123wife said:


> I don't want to be disrespectful, but you sound very wishy washy, like a big pushover. *And I have a feeling your husband knows this and uses it to his advantage. He will never change until he is forced to change. He is too good to work for someone else or some lowly position, but he is willing to let his wife support him and drive her into huge debt doing it? How about he work a job and spend time after work each day to get his marketing company off the ground? That is how most people who want to be self-employed do it. I think you could do him a big favor by putting your foot down and saying no more! Push the overgrown birdie out of the nest. He will manage to fly and may end up soaring high if forced to. *In the meantime, move to the small studio apartment or trailer (you rent month to month now, right?). If you work from home and mostly by phone or computer, can't you move to a lower cost of living location even if it is a distance from where you are now? Sell off all the expensive stuff you've bought, cut back the life style, tell him to get a job or he can somehow support himself while you move firward on a new path. Practice that mantra "can't afford that!" And maybe add, "No, I do not want that!" Otherwise, if you keep going along with his demands for bigger house, expensive toys, expensive seminar courses that don't lead to anything, then you are responsible for creating the lazy entitled husband.


The part that I underlined - this is so true. I wanted to say "He would be better off without me." but it sounds like an excuse to make myself feel less guilty - as in "So what if I abandon my partner of 20 years 'cause that's the only way he can really grow and become the man he is meant to be." But, I do believe it. And he has also said as much himself. (But he does not want me to leave.)

Yes to everything you said - I have been looking into renting a room in someone's house and can do that for about $700 a month here in town if I'm not too picky. (And I'm not) I even have a relative about 8 hour drive away who actually loves having people in her home who I could probably stay with for a few months for just grocery/incidentals money. We have 3 dogs to consider but there are places that will let you have pets (just don't know if they would allow 3)



Abc123wife said:


> Oh, the suicide threats - seriously, he would kill himself because it is beneath him to take a lowly position, work a job like the rest if humanity? If that us so, get him in contact with medical professionals or call 911 if immediate danger. Otherwise, you can't protect him and put your life on hold for fear of his choices.


A few years ago he said he would be happy if he died because of all the physical pain he is in. Some of the time when he said this he was on a neurological medication that we later learned has a side effect of suicidal thoughts. (Lovely). He got off that. 

When it comes to us separating, when he found out I was thinking of leaving in the past he said "Where's the gun? I just want to end this." We have a very big life insurance policy and when I worry about the fact that we have no savings he says "Don't worry, I'll just kill myself. I would do that for you." Like it will end his pain and be a big favor to me.

However, my dad has sizable savings and he is not going to let me end up on the streets. If/when I separate I will make sure my H knows this, that I in no way need or want that life insurance money. I think once he gets past the initial shock he'll rally.




Abc123wife said:


> Finally, what are his physical ailments that have kept him financially dependent on you for 20 years? I know migranes can be awful, but they do not keep people from being employed. And those are more recent, right? Has he ever gone on disability if he can't work? Or has he never held a job long enough to be eligible for disability?


Right, Migraines are just the last two years. 

It seems to be auto-immune stuff. I honestly believe it may be his subconscious sabotaging him because he does not feel good about himself and he is constantly presenting himself to the world as something he's not (productive, working). First he was not working and became financially dependent on me. Then his hands started hurting. I thought - put down your computer and the tv remote... But then his feet started hurting too. 

Then he'd get shooting pains throughout his body. He spent thousands and thousands on Drs, chiropractors, herbs, acupuncture, etc. It's like he has MS, except while there are some lesions in his brain, they are not where they usually are for MS and have not changed at all over the last 10 years since discovery, so drs. say they could be from a childhood incident. He had hepatitis when he was a kid. ???

Anyhow, he also has a bad back. At some point, he was literally confined to an office chair to roll around in our house for a couple months because of his back. That came and went. At some point he got sciatica pain that was awful and for over 3 months he could barely get off the couch. He did have a bulging disc and they did back surgery for that. He had intestinal fissures that required surgery too. 

He has exhaustion where he has had to sleep more of the day for days on end. He now has arthritis in one foot which flares up and feels like the foot is broken and he has to use crutches. It shows up on x-rays.

He feels horrible about himself for these things and I don't think he is faking anything, though I (and others) noticed that until the last year or two, he was always sick when he didn't want to do something, never sick when he did. (Last year he has skipped things he used to want to do due to headaches.) 

What I noticed that's odd is that there is always _something_. If it's something that can be fixed - like the back surgery or fissure surgery, then that does get better. But as SOON as that gets better, something else takes its place - Headaches now, neurological pain, total exhaustion, major insomnia. Also kidney stones - very real, very painful, kidney stones every 3 - 4 years, and possibly some smaller ones that have gone undiagnosed but cause back/side pain.

I have a hypothesis that when his business first started to decline and I started helping with his bills, he had this internal struggle that he really hated his business but didn't want to do something else because he didn't want friends/family to know he'd failed at it because many had pooh-poohed it when he started it, plus he didn't know what else he could do at that point. He knew it could be very lucrative, so he kept trying to make himself do it. But he just truly hated it and procrastination won the internal struggle, especially with me there to pay the bills just one more month...

I think that created more internal strife - hiding the fact that I was supporting us from everyone, constantly promising me a miracle next month. Feeling trapped like he didn't WANT to make the business work but it was too late to do something else... I think the stress of that started to affect his health. Then when the health issues started, they were suddenly a great excuse for why he couldn't do things he didn't want to do, and couldn't build his business back up. And they gave me an excuse when friends asked how he was doing. 

Things just got worse and worse with the pain he is in. But his vital signs are VERY good -- great healthy heart and blood pressure at least.

Part of me thinks that if I leave him he actually WILL get better once he finds a way to be self sufficient.


----------



## WorkingWife

AVR1962 said:


> I am 54, exhusband is now 57....I left almost 9 months ago after being a couple for 27 years. I did not feel like the man loved me. I think we were just opposite of your situation. I had loved this man, I was attracted to him, I enjoyed being with him and I did everything I could do to make things work but I always felt this resistance. He had told me when he met that he had been burned and I wish I would have listened to that as I don't think he could ever emotionally get close and I think it probably had more to do with his childhood than it did with the ladies in his life as I saw that he burned them and not the other way around.
> 
> I am happy that I left. There was no pleasing this man, he wanted to do everything by himself and would just sit the whole day on the computer or playing on his phone. He never showed me he cared or told me he loved me. He did not try to make plans to do things with me, he hardly talked to me. It was like I was his maid, cook, housekeeper and nanny. It was obvious he was interested in other women but sure not apparent that he was interested in me.
> 
> I have no intentions of repeating the same. I knew the only way I was ever going to have a chance at finding love and being loved again was to leave.


Wow. Thank you for sharing your experience with me. 

My husband does thank me for all I do for him and says he loves me a lot. I have also always felt resistance from him though. That could sum up his personality in one word: Resistance. Resistance to intimacy. Resistance to Any idea/request/desire I have. It's like he's wired to protect himself by immediately saying NO to anyone and anything that I suggest/request. He is trying really hard to change and that is where I am seeing improvement. I still feel more optimistic about the second half of my life if I move forward without him.


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## Openminded

He's not very likely to let go easily. He doesn't want to have to struggle with running a business (or working at all) again. Divorcing someone who doesn't want you to divorce them is a battle and it will affect every aspect of your life -- including your business. 

He will be fighting hard for his way of life to continue. You need to be prepared for what you'll be facing if he chooses to contest the divorce. You'll be paying for your lawyer and also for his and that can get pricey if he chooses of drag it out in the hope of making you just give up. 

Maybe your father will help you get out. Ask hm.


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## TheTruthHurts

Time to go


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## Openminded

Over the years he's said he loves you but that's not what his actions have said so I would question that. He may be trying hard now but that could only be because he's scared of losing his lifestyle and not because of any true love. 

The question is whether you want to spend years more waiting to see if his change is real.


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## WorkingWife

Openminded said:


> Over the years he's said he loves you but that's not what his actions have said so I would question that. He may be trying hard now but that could only be because he's scared of losing his lifestyle and not because of any true love.
> 
> The question is whether you want to spend years more waiting to see if his change is real.


Right. I can't get past the fact that he has been able to spend me into the poor house if he "loved" me, even if I was a willing accomplice. And when I finally grew a pair and started saying "No more." Until the last few days he still tried to insist we need some pretty new, 3,500 + square foot house and anywhere but near my step grand kids. 

He is trying to change though and it's NOT like I am miserable in his company. I do have love for him. But I feel urgency that if we're to divorce I need to do it ASAP before my business does take off to protect myself. I think it's going to be bad enough if we divorce while dead broke.


FOR THOSE WHO ASK ABOUT HIS SIDE, my step mom who has not hidden that she wants me to leave him and who says that "I deserve someone really great" for a couple years now asked me today "What is he doing to improve? Is he cooking and cleaning?" And this was my reply - to which she gave a pretty shocked "Wow. That's a lot." So this is part of my struggle - it's not like he's the devil or I can't stand his company.

My Response:
Cooking and cleaning are not important to me. I love cooking and he has always done a lot, probably most, of the cleaning. 

He is trying by:
1. Not making sarcastic jokes at my expense all the time (even though it's his nature to do that).
2. Trying to think of fun things we can do that are free to spend time together.
3. Trying to talk and have conversations with me, for years he seemed to hate talking so much that we never had a real conversation.
4. Trying to find ways to make money - so far this still involves him marketing my product though, and so far he's not accomplished anything - (he is waiting on my product to be ready).
5. Not spending money on stuff.
6. Planning for the future some, saying he will move to TX. (Though I think there is still a disagreement on the size/cost of house he wants. His plans assume my product makes a lot of money.)
7. Helping out more in all ways - like running errands, doing things for the dogs, just being nice about everyday things where he used to be irritated if I asked for anything, like a glass of water while he was up.
8. Complimenting me instead of making jokes about me.
9. If I do have family/friends over he is gracious instead of cold and while he doesn't want them over, he doesn't sulk or try to talk me out of it (as long as I don't involve him and keep the visit very short). He'll clean the whole house before they come.

===================

So, I am clearly schitzo on this topic. I am not saying anything to him about my divorce thoughts. Just that I appreciate and enjoy his efforts but am still very resentful and concerned that we won't find a solution for our opposite desires for the future that will make us both happy.

I plan to get a legal consultation and see a therapist regardless of what decide, and get control of the finances. Right now I'm kind of just being as nice and open as possible to him and really thinking about his personality and how we are together and if we can be happy long term.

Again, I really appreciate all the feedback, it is all helpful.


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## WorkingWife

Openminded said:


> Maybe your father will help you get out. Ask hm.


My father actually called and volunteered to help me out. I don't think he knows how much divorce costs or what alimony might be though.

I do wonder though, how can he contest too much or hire an expensive lawyer if our credit cards are basically tapped out and we have no cash? How do broke people get divorced? It's a $435 filing fee in CA. I read on line most attorneys want at least a $3,000 retainer.


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## SadSamIAm

WorkingWife said:


> First, I want to say *thank you SO MUCH to EVERYONE on here* for the very thoughtful responses. It is very helpful and sobering. I feel confident giving others advice but can't see my own situation clearly. I'm going to read through this thread and digest more over the next couple days. I'm just going to respond to this post right now and add a few things in case they they change anyones advice.
> 
> 
> 
> No no no, I will not cheat. Never. Yes I felt this way before I ran into the grade school friend. In fact, I had 90% of this post written out on my computer months ago and started to post many times before but the situation was always fluid and one day I'd want out so bad and the next day I'd feel like "ho hum, we get along better than most."
> 
> I mentioned the grade school friend because his flattery really DID get into my head. That and a couple other things happened at the same time (see below) that gave a sense of urgency to my long standing feeling of low level frustration/malcontent. I have been unhappy with sex/intimacy with my H our whole relationship. Knowing this guy was really attracted to me in a way my husband NEVER has been, really did mess with my head as far as thinking about the kind of sexual relationship I could have with someone other than my husband that I can't have with him. I don't even know this guy well. I suspect he would have had an affair with me if I gave him any encouragement. (Which actually makes him unattractive to me.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that's part of my long term frustration. I feel like I have been working, and working, and working, and we've gotten nowhere. I know all the sacrificing I've done is my fault, but when I try to think of a way to stop, the only way I can think of is to separate, because while I am getting better, I have not been strong enough when I'm here with him. He rationalizes away my misgivings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I understand that. One thing that I have been unable to think in my mind is would I be happier living the rest of my life alone with no man, or with my husband and our frustrations. I go back and forth in my mind from day to day. In general I would like his companionship over being alone, but because he has been so closed off to fostering any kind of relationship with any of my family, in the last couple years I gave up and started visiting family on my own. I felt so happy being around them, so close to them, and I've missed them so much my whole marriage. Sadly, I found that I would much rather be with my friends and family withOUT him around because if I were to insist he come, he would do it, but be a total stick in the mud. Or be all friendly to their face and then tell me how he finds them boring afterward.
> 
> 
> 
> No but I was extremely tempted to. This guy started texting me all the time and I knew it was wrong but I looked forward to his texts regardless. When I realized that I didn't want my H to know how much he was texting me I told him to stop and he did. If I had not been on forums like this and known what an emotional affair was, I probably would have just kept texting away. The pull to see what he would say next was extremely strong. I've never understood how people could do that to their spouses but it was truly an overwhelming (completely self indulgent) urge. That was a few weeks ago.
> 
> If I do separate I plan to move out of town near a relative for a couple months, so I would not be tempted to look up "prince charming."
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to do something. He has absolutely no way of supporting himself at the moment. I helped create this situation by never putting a stop to it, and now he has the health issues. If I had not kept paying his bills I have no doubt he would have found a way to be self sufficient today. And being self employed with a business that goes up and down, this really scares me. I was reading about alimony last night in my state and they say it's based on "the lifestyle" you've been providing for the "dependent" person. ****. ME. 90% of my grievance is that he's spent every dime I've earned plus gone into debt over the last 20 years to live in an expensive place with a lifestyle I don't even want. I can't keep up with our current bills, let alone two households if one of them is of THIS lifestyle.
> 
> I am going to see a lawyer just to find out where I stand, whether I leave or not.
> 
> 
> 
> I have said all this to my husband. Hence his trying so much more lately. I have not said "I'm thinking of actually separating from you" in the last few days (when it's been more on my mind) but I have told him I really see his changes and really appreciate them but I am very resentful about where we are.
> 
> OTHER THINGS THAT MAKE ME PAUSE
> Most posts seem very focused on the guy who made me think "what if" and I almost left him out of the story because I was afraid of that, but I know he is a factor in my sudden urgency to make a decision. But these things were really pushing me before he was anywhere near the picture:
> 
> 1. I have a product for my business that should be launch ready in a couple months. Every time I talk to my H about money stress, he says "just get the product launched and then we'll talk." He thinks it's going to make tons of money. (He plans to help with the marketing for it.) I feel like if we are going to end up separated or divorced, I need to do it *before *the business starts making more money because of alimony.
> 
> 2. Not having my product out yet, business has been slow lately and suddenly we were almost out of money again. If I didn't have him, I could easily live on what I make, work less, relax more, and save money. I feel like I could fall back in love with him if I put my mind to it and opened my heart - but I feel like that is not a SAFE thing to do for my financial future. I am extremely resentful that he has let us get to this point. I know it's my fault for giving in all the time but I also know that I would NEVER let someone else give up their financial security for my immediate comfort.
> 
> 3. My divorced parents are both in their mid to late 80's. When they pass I'll probably inherit a over 100K from each of them. My father in particular does not want my H getting part of the inheritance, and while I have always had the attitude of "What's mine is ours as we are married" I feel the same way. He is trying to change but so far he has spent EVERY dime I have made. When I talk about moving and buying a house he says he's on board and then starts showing me $600K homes as his bottom standard. I really don't feel SAFE financially being married to him. He seems to be changing but what if I stay and then inherit and he spends it or we get divorced and he gets half of it. I hate myself for thinking that way, but it is a real concern.
> 
> 4. We don't have children but wanted them then were going to adopt from Foster care, he kept saying he wanted to do that but so often when we had a class he didn't feel good, so we never could get through the program - this went on at least 10 years. I have a step daughter with two small children who would love us nearby to be family/grandparents to her kids. I see this as a solution to my very strong need for parenting and family. Hubby says he is now willing to move to a less expensive area, even the state she is in, but he will go anywhere EXCEPT close to them because he does not want them in our lives - or me in theirs? He likes the area and he does not dislike them, but like all my friends/family they are "not his type" and he "doesn't want them in his life" - I can go visit them on my own. When I say it would fill my need to have children/family around he said "We are going to do the Foster kids. I still want to do that." And now I say "I simply don't believe that will ever happen."
> 
> For example the thing with family - what kind of wonderful memories could I have built over the last 20 years if I'd found someone who was open to getting to know my friends and family, not just his?
> 
> Then again we were talking about something with politics that we agreed on the other day and both burst out laughing at the same time. I wish we had more of that, but that stuff is golden to me when it happens and I think - why walk away when he loves me and wants it to work?
> 
> :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
> 
> So he just came in my office and said he knows things are hard right now but he's been thinking and there are not a lot of people who are together 20 years and he is trying and it's going to get better and it will all work out.
> 
> SORRY POST IS SO LONG.


In regards to your new product, I am guessing it is too late. The product was thought of and mostly built before you split up. The revenue from it would most likely be viewed as 50% his.


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## WorkingWife

SadSamIAm said:


> In regards to your new product, I am guessing it is too late. The product was thought of and mostly built before you split up. The revenue from it would most likely be viewed as 50% his.


Thanks @SadSamIAm. Good to know. I was wondering.

What if I just never released the product or I developed a different product instead? And what about all the future work necessary to market, support, and maintain the product?  What if I dissolved the LLC partnership and just became a sole proprietor again before filing for divorce? If I sold the product post divorce would that still be half his? What about other products I develop after this one product say a year or two after a divorce, will he be due a portion of those too?

If so, what if he gets his act together and starts making money in a year or two post divorce? Would I have any claim to part of that?

Thanks.


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## Openminded

WorkingWife said:


> My father actually called and volunteered to help me out. I don't think he knows how much divorce costs or what alimony might be though.
> 
> I do wonder though, how can he contest too much or hire an expensive lawyer if our credit cards are basically tapped out and we have no cash? How do broke people get divorced? It's a $435 filing fee in CA. I read on line most attorneys want at least a $3,000 retainer.


If your credit isn't completely trashed yet, he might try for another credit card. You really should check your credit report periodically (if you haven't) to see what's there. 

Yes, lawyers can be expensive and a contested divorce can eat up tens of thousands of dollars (or much more). People with no money handle their divorce themselves with state-specific forms from the Internet so they don't have to involve lawyers. It's easy. But in order for it to work both parties have to agree to all aspects of the divorce before they file. I doubt he'll be that cooperative.


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## Elizabeth001

Openminded said:


> If your credit isn't completely trashed yet, he might try for another credit card. You really should check your credit report periodically (if you haven't) to see what's there.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, lawyers can be expensive and a contested divorce can eat up tens of thousands of dollars (or much more). People with no money handle their divorce themselves with state-specific forms from the Internet so they don't have to involve lawyers. It's easy. But in order for it to work both parties have to agree to all aspects of the divorce before they file. I doubt he'll be that cooperative.




Got mine for $84 but I had a legal benefit from work. Essentially, I was only responsible for the filing fees and that was deducted from our joint account just before we divided assets. The key is coming to an agreement. 

Also, as you mentioned & if I were the OP, I would run a credit check ASAP, and as I stated before, take over all handling of finances IMMEDIATELY. Make damn sure nothing is getting stashed away. Time to CYA!


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## TheTruthHurts

(Weird wrong item quoted)


I highly doubt it. All she has to do is not release it. There is no revenue. She can wait past any reasonable settlement period to release. It's consulting so it's all her anyway 


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## TheTruthHurts

TheTruthHurts said:


> (Weird wrong item quoted)
> 
> 
> I highly doubt it. All she has to do is not release it. There is no revenue. She can wait past any reasonable settlement period to release. It's consulting so it's all her anyway
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I see @workingwoman that you already expressed this. Btw see an attorney on this and don't take random internet advice - it's not likely to be helpful


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## lifeistooshort

Whatever you choose to do absolutely do not comingle your inheritance.

If you do it becomes half his.

And the suicide threats right in front of you are highly manipulative, and clearly they work. I'm sure the thought of losing his meal ticket is terrifying but emotionally bullying you with suicide threats is not an act of love. It's an act of someone who's concerned for himself...... if you factored into anything he wouldn't have stood by and let you support him while spending you into debt. 

Next time that happens call 911.


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## WilliamM

Migraines is just an excuse. I suffer migraines. I take daily medication to control them since they became cluster headaches. In no way does that prevent me from working. I also take daily medications to control my soaring blood pressure. I still work.

He makes lousy excuses to avoid working for a living so he can sponge off of you.

You make lousy excuses to avoid leaving him so you can live a better life. 

It never ceases to amaze me how many people allow themselves to keep limping along in relationships which just don't make them happy.

I also can't understand how people, your husband for instance, can fail to do what he should do to make you happy. I feel sorry for you, and I do hope you get out of your relationship. I think there is just too large a gulf between how he acts and how he should act. There were too many negative things from the very beginning.

Please be well.


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## WorkingWife

TheTruthHurts said:


> I see @workingwoman that you already expressed this. Btw see an attorney on this and don't take random internet advice - it's not likely to be helpful
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I'm just curious what people who have been through it think may happen. I was reading about business valuation online and it is all over the place and sounds like different states handle it differently. If we do divorce and don't reach an amicable agreement we'll probably have to get a forensic accountant! I'm sure that won't be cheap.

He's working *really *hard on our relationship but I'm just going to stay calm and gather info over the next week or two and try to objectively asses how I feel being with him. And see a counselor if possible. 

I have told him the money thing has changed the way I feel about him and our marriage, he says he understands but he's still very optimistic about marketing the product and has all kinds of ideas. He thinks everything will be better when the product launches. I am trying to be open minded to his efforts but I still feel more excited about life if I think about it without him. I know I have to get a handle on everything and stop the financial oblivion/bleeding regardless.


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## DustyDog

blueinbr said:


> That's no different from marriage. After the wedding you discover that reality doesn't match the fantasy.


Only if you suck at learning who a person is. Shouldn't take longer than 6-18 months, if you are average on the observance scale.

People can only hide stuff from you if you choose to be blind.


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## Diana7

WilliamM said:


> Migraines is just an excuse. I suffer migraines. I take daily medication to control them since they became cluster headaches. In no way does that prevent me from working. I also take daily medications to control my soaring blood pressure. I still work.
> 
> He makes lousy excuses to avoid working for a living so he can sponge off of you.
> 
> You make lousy excuses to avoid leaving him so you can live a better life.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how many people allow themselves to keep limping along in relationships which just don't make them happy.
> 
> I also can't understand how people, your husband for instance, can fail to do what he should do to make you happy. I feel sorry for you, and I do hope you get out of your relationship. I think there is just too large a gulf between how he acts and how he should act. There were too many negative things from the very beginning.
> 
> Please be well.


That depends on the frequency of the migraines. I used to get very serious incredibly disabling migraines 2-4 times a month that disabled me for 3 or 4 more days each time. 

This thread is very sad. I believe that marriage is for life unless there is adultery or serious abuse, I cant see that here. What about the for better and for worse?


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## SadSamIAm

WorkingWife said:


> Thanks @SadSamIAm. Good to know. I was wondering.
> 
> What if I just never released the product or I developed a different product instead?


If you never release it, neither of you make money from it. If you develop a different product and it looks a bunch like the one you are working on, he would have a case that he should benefit from it




> And what about all the future work necessary to market, support, and maintain the product?


I believe that money would be yours. But it would be going to your income which would determine the amount of alimony you pay. So depending on the divorce agreement, your future earnings (up to a specified time) but mean more alimony to pay. I think the length of time is related to the length of the marriage.



> What if I dissolved the LLC partnership and just became a sole proprietor again before filing for divorce?


In Canada, it doesn't matter. When you are married, everything either person owns is marital property and is to be divided 50/50. Doesn't matter if he owns part of the company or not.





> If I sold the product post divorce would that still be half his?


If he can prove the product was created before the divorce then he would have a case.




> What about other products I develop after this one product say a year or two after a divorce, will he be due a portion of those too?


If he can prove they were derived from work during the marriage then he might have a case. Would be tougher for him to prove.



> If so, what if he gets his act together and starts making money in a year or two post divorce? Would I have any claim to part of that?


Definitely. When deciding alimony they don't just look at what the person is earning, but also their earning potential. Also, it can be adjusted if Income Levels change. A long term marriage is subject to long term alimony. I have been married for almost 30 years. My wife hasn't worked since year two when we started having kids. I have been told that I would be paying her alimony forever.


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## SadSamIAm

WorkingWife said:


> Yeah, I'm just curious what people who have been through it think may happen. I was reading about business valuation online and it is all over the place and sounds like different states handle it differently. If we do divorce and don't reach an amicable agreement we'll probably have to get a forensic accountant! I'm sure that won't be cheap.
> 
> He's working *really *hard on our relationship but I'm just going to stay calm and gather info over the next week or two and try to objectively asses how I feel being with him. And see a counselor if possible.
> 
> I have told him the money thing has changed the way I feel about him and our marriage, he says he understands but he's still very optimistic about marketing the product and has all kinds of ideas. He thinks everything will be better when the product launches. I am trying to be open minded to his efforts but I still feel more excited about life if I think about it without him. I know I have to get a handle on everything and stop the financial oblivion/bleeding regardless.


Money won't fix any issues. May make them worse. My marriage was happier before I became successful. We have more things. But neither of us are happier. 

In your case, if he does happen to succeed at marketing your products, then you might feel like you are more of a partnership, which might make for a better relationship. It could easily though, just end up in him spending more and you being more resentful about him spending what you have earned. 

To be honest, I see a huge double standard with TAM in regards to your situation. If a man was to post about his business and quizzing about how he can hide the value and future earnings for the business from his wife, people on here would be ripping him apart. Especially after he told everyone he re-connected with a high school crush.


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## TheTruthHurts

SadSamIAm said:


> If you never release it, neither of you make money from it. If you develop a different product and it looks a bunch like the one you are working on, he would have a case that he should benefit from it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that money would be yours. But it would be going to your income which would determine the amount of alimony you pay. So depending on the divorce agreement, your future earnings (up to a specified time) but mean more alimony to pay. I think the length of time is related to the length of the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Canada, it doesn't matter. When you are married, everything either person owns is marital property and is to be divided 50/50. Doesn't matter if he owns part of the company or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he can prove the product was created before the divorce then he would have a case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he can prove they were derived from work during the marriage then he might have a case. Would be tougher for him to prove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely. When deciding alimony they don't just look at what the person is earning, but also their earning potential. Also, it can be adjusted if Income Levels change. A long term marriage is subject to long term alimony. I have been married for almost 30 years. My wife hasn't worked since year two when we started having kids. I have been told that I would be paying her alimony forever.




This is your opinion based on limited information and jurisdiction specific impressions. A good attorney could easily make a different case and probably win in many jurisdictions.

Regardless - op - I recommend you tell your h to get an outside job - any job - as a condition of even considering staying.

First, he'll need to support himself anyway. Second, it will establish that he is capable of work and that will very important in establishing potential future earnings. Do not settle for him not working anymore 


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## WorkingWife

SadSamIAm said:


> To be honest, I see a huge double standard with TAM in regards to your situation. If a man was to post about his business and quizzing about how he can hide the value and future earnings for the business from his wife, people on here would be ripping him apart. Especially after he told everyone he re-connected with a high school crush.


That thought crossed my mind too. Or if a woman was a stay at home wife and developed illnesses over the years and in her 50's the husband wanted to divorce her and didn't want to give her any money. I'd having nothing good to say.

I am not trying to hide assets though and I know I will have to pay something. At the moment he has zero income of his own. (Though that's only because he gave up a stream of about $10 - $15K a year in bonuses from his old business because he thought he'd do better without the stress of dealing with an audit once a year... so...)

Anyhow - I just want to know what I am dealing with. And yes, I want to minimize what I owe, but it's more because of the fear that I simply won't be able to make the money to pay what a judge may issue. I've worked basically 7 days a week, 12+ hours a day for most of our marriage just to keep the rent paid. I talked about quitting self employed and getting a job that was less stressed many times and he talked me out of it. Alimony I can see but I don't feel I owe him part of something I developed on my own late at night while he was watching ball games on TV.


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## Buddy400

WorkingWife said:


> He's working *really *hard on our relationship


Make the next step in "working really hard" involve him making some money.


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## SadSamIAm

WorkingWife said:


> That thought crossed my mind too. Or if a woman was a stay at home wife and developed illnesses over the years and in her 50's the husband wanted to divorce her and didn't want to give her any money. I'd having nothing good to say.
> 
> I am not trying to hide assets though and I know I will have to pay something. At the moment he has zero income of his own. (Though that's only because he gave up a stream of about $10 - $15K a year in bonuses from his old business because he thought he'd do better without the stress of dealing with an audit once a year... so...)
> 
> Anyhow - I just want to know what I am dealing with. And yes, I want to minimize what I owe, but it's more because of the fear that I simply won't be able to make the money to pay what a judge may issue. I've worked basically 7 days a week, 12+ hours a day for most of our marriage just to keep the rent paid. I talked about quitting self employed and getting a job that was less stressed many times and he talked me out of it. Alimony I can see but I don't feel I owe him part of something I developed on my own late at night while he was watching ball games on TV.


I understand you totally. I own an IT Business and have built it up to being quite successful. My wife is a SAHM. Has been for the last 23 years. Our youngest is 20 years old. My wife has no intention of getting a job. She is content working out and shopping. 

Difference is that my wife actually works quite hard (meals, cleaning, laundry). Her being at home and taking care of kids/house really was a benefit to me and our business. But for the last 4 years and the next 10 or so until I retire, she could be out working. I know (and she knows) that I really have no choice. After a long term marriage, if I want out, I will pay pay pay pay!


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## ABHale

WorkingWife said:


> That thought crossed my mind too. Or if a woman was a stay at home wife and developed illnesses over the years and in her 50's the husband wanted to divorce her and didn't want to give her any money. I'd having nothing good to say.
> 
> I am not trying to hide assets though and I know I will have to pay something. At the moment he has zero income of his own. (Though that's only because he gave up a stream of about $10 - $15K a year in bonuses from his old business because he thought he'd do better without the stress of dealing with an audit once a year... so...)
> 
> Anyhow - I just want to know what I am dealing with. And yes, I want to minimize what I owe, but it's more because of the fear that I simply won't be able to make the money to pay what a judge may issue. I've worked basically 7 days a week, 12+ hours a day for most of our marriage just to keep the rent paid. I talked about quitting self employed and getting a job that was less stressed many times and he talked me out of it. Alimony I can see but I don't feel I owe him part of something I developed on my own late at night while he was watching ball games on TV.


The thing is he stopped being a husband and became dependent. You have worked the past 20 years and have nothing to show for it except debt. 

Up to you with what you want. He has been a lazy azz for some years now when he should have been working. As for the effort he is putting forth right now, I would have believed real if he did it on his own years ago. There is no way he can make Up for his past actions or inaction.

I am in the same boat as you. The last 14 or so years with my wife has me almost to the point you are at. I have 4 more years and my youngest graduates form HS. Once he leaves the house there will be no more need for me the be there. 

Wish you the best OP, I do know how you feel.


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## lifeistooshort

Yep.....if he's that serious about saving your marriage he can start by getting a job. 

Short of that he's just looking to keep his meal ticket.

I would see this a little differently if he'd been taking care of your kids and the home, thus allowing you to build your career.

But this guy is a mooching bum who sits on his bum, lets you work yourself to the bone, and looks for ways to spend more money.

My guess is that the marriage isn't valuable enough to get a job.... he's searching for the minimum he can put in without getting a job and still keep your financial support.


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## WorkingWife

ABHale said:


> The thing is he stopped being a husband and became dependent. You have worked the past 20 years and have nothing to show for it except debt.
> 
> Up to you with what you want. He has been a lazy azz for some years now when he should have been working. As for the effort he is putting forth right now, I would have believed real if he did it on his own years ago. There is no way he can make Up for his past actions or inaction.
> 
> I am in the same boat as you. The last 14 or so years with my wife has me almost to the point you are at. I have 4 more years and my youngest graduates form HS. Once he leaves the house there will be no more need for me the be there.
> 
> Wish you the best OP, I do know how you feel.


Thanks. This is where I get wishy washy (though I feel more resolve every day) because human being are complex. I know him and love him and I know he is not some lazy jerk who *consciously* set out to let a woman keep him in grand style and deliberately spend her into poverty. He is a flawed human being who truly believed the bs that came out of his mouth about what he WAS going to do. He still believes it. 
And who knows, maybe it's true now. But I'm not in love with him anymore and I'm so hurt that even though he didn't deliberately use me, he still did. And I'm no psychiatrist but my guess is 90% of his health issues are due to his deep shame over who he has been compared to who he wants to be.

With that said, I realized today that I have been talking myself into staying with him "because he's trying" and "because I don't want to hurt/humiliate him" most of our relationship. I do love him in that I am very attached to him (I have very few girlfriends) and I care about him and we get along well. But I'm not still with him because I am in love with him or feel we have something special that I couldn't have with someone else.

And all these years - we *could *have had something special. We could have had the children he promised me on what I've earned. We could have bought a house. We could have a lot more memories with family and friends and much closer relationships. 

We hardly even have PICTURES of ourselves because he doesn't like having his picture taken and literally won't let me take his picture. OK, that's a weird thing for me to hone in on, but my point is there is really NOTHING to mark our 20 years together. 

All my friends feel so sorry for me because he and I can seldom keep plans because he never feels good. But the truth is, I don't care about that. I don't want to make him do things when he feels bad. I don't have a high need for him to be some super bread winner or take me out all the time. I just want someone I can tell my secrets to and lie in be and giggle with at night. He's just not that person. And I have only myself and my low self esteem to blame for staying with him past our third date because I was frustrated and unfulfilled long before he became broke. The fact that he was willing to use me and his mom to keep the bills paid does speak to his selfishness, or something. I would not say he's lazy, I would say he has been extremely selfish in the past though that's part of what he's trying to change now.


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## Elizabeth001

WorkingWife said:


> Thanks. This is where I get wishy washy (though I feel more resolve every day) because human being are complex. I know him and love him and I know he is not some lazy jerk who *consciously* set out to let a woman keep him in grand style and deliberately spend her into poverty. He is a flawed human being who truly believed the bs that came out of his mouth about what he WAS going to do. He still believes it.
> And who knows, maybe it's true now. But I'm not in love with him anymore and I'm so hurt that even though he didn't deliberately use me, he still did. And I'm no psychiatrist but my guess is 90% of his health issues are due to his deep shame over who he has been compared to who he wants to be.
> 
> With that said, I realized today that I have been talking myself into staying with him "because he's trying" and "because I don't want to hurt/humiliate him" most of our relationship. I do love him in that I am very attached to him (I have very few girlfriends) and I care about him and we get along well. But I'm not still with him because I am in love with him or feel we have something special that I couldn't have with someone else.
> 
> And all these years - we *could *have had something special. We could have had the children he promised me on what I've earned. We could have bought a house. We could have a lot more memories with family and friends and much closer relationships.
> 
> We hardly even have PICTURES of ourselves because he doesn't like having his picture taken and literally won't let me take his picture. OK, that's a weird thing for me to hone in on, but my point is there is really NOTHING to mark our 20 years together.
> 
> All my friends feel so sorry for me because he and I can seldom keep plans because he never feels good. But the truth is, I don't care about that. I don't want to make him do things when he feels bad. I don't have a high need for him to be some super bread winner or take me out all the time. I just want someone I can tell my secrets to and lie in be and giggle with at night. He's just not that person. And I have only myself and my low self esteem to blame for staying with him past our third date because I was frustrated and unfulfilled long before he became broke. The fact that he was willing to use me and his mom to keep the bills paid does speak to his selfishness, or something. I would not say he's lazy, I would say he has been extremely selfish in the past though that's part of what he's trying to change now.




Honey, he ain't trying to do sh1t but keep you pacified one more day. You can't see the forest for the trees. 


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## WilliamM

I know nothing about law. But it seems to me one strategy could be to dissolve the company. Let it fail.

Start a new one in your own name, just as that one had been before he incorporated it.

Companies come and go all the time.


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## WorkingWife

WilliamM said:


> I know nothing about law. But it seems to me one strategy could be to dissolve the company. Let it fail.
> 
> Start a new one in your own name, just as that one had been before he incorporated it.
> 
> Companies come and go all the time.


I have an appt with one attorney coming up. Another attorney I reached out to replied by email and told me that if the company started during our marriage it is a marital asset and there is its value plus alimony. :surprise: However, I realized that the company - my being self employed and doing exactly what I am still doing - predated our marriage by several years. 

I changed the name after our marriage (at his suggestion) and the three years ago signed the papers to become an LLC with him as 50% partner, so I don't know how that will fit in. I guess I'll find out... At this point it truly doesn't matter because I realize this marriage is crushing my soul and has been for years. I know I screwed up and should not have married him and I let this go on and on out of weakness, but staying and being unhappy just because I feel guilty for marrying him mostly because I felt guilty for letting him become dependent on me seems like doubling down on pathetic.
@Elizabeth001 I saw you say in another thread that you couldn't get divorced sooner because you couldn't afford it. Can you elaborate a little? Can the courts make you pay more to your spouse than you have/can? Or did you have to use lawyers for your situation and that cost too much?

Thanks!


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## TheTruthHurts

Honey it's only money. Don't sweat it. Live your life and move on. You've proven to be financially resilient in the past so this is just another bump. See your lawyer but it's time to move on regardless.


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## Elizabeth001

WorkingWife said:


> I have an appt with one attorney coming up. Another attorney I reached out to replied by email and told me that if the company started during our marriage it is a marital asset and there is its value plus alimony. :surprise: However, I realized that the company - my being self employed and doing exactly what I am still doing - predated our marriage by several years.
> 
> 
> 
> I changed the name after our marriage (at his suggestion) and the three years ago signed the papers to become an LLC with him as 50% partner, so I don't know how that will fit in. I guess I'll find out... At this point it truly doesn't matter because I realize this marriage is crushing my soul and has been for years. I know I screwed up and should not have married him and I let this go on and on out of weakness, but staying and being unhappy just because I feel guilty for marrying him mostly because I felt guilty for letting him become dependent on me seems like doubling down on pathetic.
> 
> 
> @Elizabeth001 I saw you say in another thread that you couldn't get divorced sooner because you couldn't afford it. Can you elaborate a little? Can the courts make you pay more to your spouse than you have/can? Or did you have to use lawyers for your situation and that cost too much?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!




We were under water on the house. My original thread is titled "no way out" if you want to look it up but our financial situation wasn't the same as yours. 


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## WilliamM

Coulda Shoulda Woulda.

Please don't beat yourself up about what you should have done. We all should have done something differently.

Make your life better from this day forward. That's all you can actually change, anyway. Just as you can only change you, you can only change the future.

Please be well


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## Satya

Do you want to support a "work in progress" your whole life? I'm not saying he doesn't contribute anything, but it's not enough to meet your needs, which you seem to be waffling on establishing because you don't want to be a "bad person." Your guilt has your feet in cement as much as his inability to contribute in meaningful ways (i.e. a job). Seriously, stop feeling guilty. There's nothing wrong with wanting a complete, adult, and responsible partner, if you acknowledge that is your NEED. 

You're ignoring your gut because of your guilt. Maybe not completely, but you are hesitating. You've worked hard and you can't trust he won't bring more loss, whether monetarily or emotionally. I've been there before. I worked my arse off and felt taken advantage of with no progress in sight from my ex. Some people have no innate desire to improve or challenge themselves, or work on their problems, let alone be mindful of their partners' needs and pull their own weight in the relationship.


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