# Domestic violence



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I believe this to be a very important topic - especially for current or future parents. 

I am going to kick this off with a couple of harsh observations.

Men - as a group we need to stop playing bs political games with statistics. I read FAR too many posts by men on this forum who say that: Some studies show that men are victimized at comparable or greater rates than females with regard to domestic violence. Guys, we need to stop lying to ourselves, our sons and each other about this topic. I did the math from the WSJ DB on a full DECADE of homicide data in the US. 
- Males commit 77 percent of intimate partner (wife, ex wife, girl friend, ex gf) homicides. 
- Females commit the remaining 23 percent. 

While the data is less objective, as the intensity level of the violence drops, it is fair to say that men also commit the vast majority of domestic violence which results in serious physical injury. 

I do NOT give a shlt that the numbers are close to 50-50 when ALL cases of DV are assessed. Because the definitions of DV are so watered down they include saying things that cause your partner mental harm. And any man who wants to compare a wife 'pushing her husband', to a husband killing or maiming his wife needs to mail me his man card promptly so I can burn it. 

As a group, I am ashamed of this bull shlt. 

Women:
As a group you need to stop using false claims of 'abuse' in divorce cases as a means to gain leverage in custody and financial settlement matters. Stop lying in court. Because that behavior is now so prevalent that the women who really are at risk, are having difficulty getting the support they need from the family court system. And stop throwing the word 'abuse' around so fvcking casually. When you say your partner 'abused you', the default assumption is that it was physical. If it wasn't then fvcking say so. Say he 'emotionally abused' me. Or, if it's true, say 'he never hit me, but he threatened to do XYZ when I told him it was over'. 

To all of us. I encourage you to read your state statutes. 

One last comment, and this is on a personal note. Last week, for the first and only time in almost 25 years my W punched me in the face and kicked me during a very tense argument. 

In response I grabbed her wrists and said 'you need to stop', and then after a few seconds I let go. She proceeded to tell me that I was being 'emotionally abusive and needed to leave the house immediately'. I shook my head in disbelief and said 'it's our house, not your house and if you don't wish to be in my company you are welcome to get an apartment'. 

A couple observations:
1. I was shocked and felt that her behavior was beyond disrespectful. 
2. I was WAY more upset about her blame shifting and attempt to 'throw me out of HER house' than I was about the physical foolishness. 
3. Given the large difference between us in height, reach, bone density and muscle mass at no point during or after did I feel fear, or it's first cousin - rage. 
4. Had the situation been reversed, IMO she would have been wholly justified in feeling afraid, violated and calling the police and having me thrown in jail. 

And no - I didn't report it. While 'technically illegal' this was sadly just one more case of crazy town. Not nearly as painful as the emotionally cruel stuff she has said/done over the last few years. 

So there you have it. We are physically different enough that female to male is typically not the same as male to female - when it comes to physical violence.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> You really should not tolerate it from females either, there is no excuse for that. Yes, if a man punches a woman it packs more of a wallop and is immediately life threatening, still she has no excuse.
> 
> The best advice given to me, was "Report it and get out." Report it because abusers lie and shift the blame.
> 
> ...


Theyll KILL you. Men abuses are highly misreported because men dont say anything out of the social stigma of being considered weak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

My already high opinion of you just skyrocketed Mem. Thank you for being the voice of reason around this place, balanced and honest input from you as always.

Personally I have neither suffered or dealt out any DV but have nothing but empathy for those that have. No one should ever have to live this way, male or female. But we are all adults here, it is the children that need more protection.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I believe this to be a very important topic - especially for current or future parents.
> 
> I am going to kick this off with a couple of harsh observations.
> 
> ...


If she assaults you again you need to press charges, get it on the record. Violence is an addiction, they grow into it.

You press charges because you don't want it getting blown out of proportion on you or getting worse and you want to stop the behavior in its tracks.

Having to be counselled by police or spend a few days in jail isn't going to kill anyone.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> You really should not tolerate it from females either, there is no excuse for that. Yes, if a man punches a woman it packs more of a wallop and is immediately life threatening, still she has no excuse.
> 
> The best advice given to me, was "Report it and get out." Report it because abusers lie and shift the blame.
> 
> ...


Yes years of not saying anything and it gets much worse and you even pay for what's being issued your direction.


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## I am (Dec 3, 2013)

Worst part of domestic violence is keeping quiet knowing everything.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

MEM ...

This very hard for me to write, because I have always enjoyed reading your posts and think you have a lot of wisdom to impart. For the sake of argument, I will stipulate your admonitions to both genders. But on your personal note, you are fooling yourself.



MEM11363 said:


> One last comment, and this is on a personal note. Last week, for the first and only time in almost 25 years my W punched me in the face and kicked me during a very tense argument.
> 
> In response I grabbed her wrists and said 'you need to stop', and then after a few seconds I let go. She proceeded to tell me that I was being 'emotionally abusive and needed to leave the house immediately'. I shook my head in disbelief and said 'it's our house, not your house and if you don't wish to be in my company you are welcome to get an apartment'.
> 
> ...


1. It was.
2. Many victims of abuse feel the emotional is more painful than the physical.
3. See below.
4. So were you.

This is unacceptable. No one has a right to strike another person, whether they are male or female.

The fact of the matter is that unless abusers have some consequences for their actions, they tend to escalate - and that is not gender specific behavior. I'm glad your greater height and reach comes in handy. What are you going to do when she uses an implement next time? By at least one study, women who abuse are more likely to use a weapon to offset that disadvantage.

Getting hit with a book hurts, and so does a drinking glass upside the head. So does a knife. I know men in my life who have had women use all three on them.

Look, you may be doing more in dealing with your wife on this than you are outlining here, which I understand if you don't care to share. The tone of your post, however, is men should just suck it up when it happens. 1) I don't agree with that, and 2) I really hope you aren't doing that yourself.

Good luck, brother. I hope you don't need it.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> One last comment, and this is on a personal note. Last week, for the first and only time in almost 25 years my W punched me in the face and kicked me during a very tense argument.
> 
> In response I grabbed her wrists and said 'you need to stop', and then after a few seconds I let go. She proceeded to tell me that I was being 'emotionally abusive and needed to leave the house immediately'. I shook my head in disbelief and said 'it's our house, not your house and if you don't wish to be in my company you are welcome to get an apartment'.



This is the correct response from a man who encounters abusive and _cowardly_ female behaviour. I say cowardly, because most women know that decent men won't hit back.

I trust my SO implicitly, and even though he could kill me with one blow (he has iron hard muscles and is built like a Viking), I know he would _never_ lift a hand to me - no matter what. For this reason alone (even though there are many other reasons, too), it would be utter cowardice for me to even think of getting physical with him.

Your post is spot on, OP.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Men - as a group we need to stop playing bs political games with statistics.


As someone you've accused of playing games with these statistics, I'll respond. If you want to define domestic violence/abuse in the traditional way, where one partner ends up dead or hospitalized, then I will agree with you. Women are usually the victims.

However, that definition certainly contains elements of sexual bias. It essentially rewards women for being violent, yet without the physical means to cause significant harm. It ignores intent, which is an important element of criminal law.

For example, suppose we have 1,000 cases of husbands and wives shooting at each other. Let's say these cases are evenly split between 500 wives shooting at husbands, and 500 husbands shooting at wives. Let's say there are no cases of both sexes simultaneously shooting at each other. It's reasonable to think that husbands, having more familiarity with guns, are better shots than wives. So imagine that 100 wives end up dead and 400 wives are unharmed. The wives, being poorer marksmen, only kill 10 husbands and leave 490 unharmed.

By your standard, husbands are 10x more dangerous than wives. But both sexes shot at each other equally. So, by examining intent, one could say that wives are just as dangerous, or prone to violence, as husbands. Now, both standards are inexact. Using only the results, one ignores wives who attempted to harm their husbands. Using only attempts to harm, one ignores the greater efficacy of husbands.



> When you say your partner 'abused you', the default assumption is that it was physical. If it wasn't then fvcking say so. Say he 'emotionally abused' me. Or, if it's true, say 'he never hit me, but he threatened to do XYZ when I told him it was over'.


I wholeheartedly agree here. It's a disservice to abused women, and men who don't abuse women, to redefine abuse to include everything under the sun. It makes all women into victims and all men into criminals. At that point, the words become meaningless.



> To all of us. I encourage you to read your state statutes.


Absolutely. I hope, for your sake, that, if you need to report your wife's behavior, you don't live in a jurisdiction where the police automatically arrest husbands in suspected domestic disputes. But, if you know beforehand, you won't make the mistake of walking straight into a trap.

I wish you luck and hope you can make it through your present difficulties.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

2Gals,
I have had a few moments of concern about her escalating.

Deep down, I think she really believes it is my fault that she punched/kicked me. 



QUOTE=2galsmom;5827770]You really should not tolerate it from females either, there is no excuse for that. Yes, if a man punches a woman it packs more of a wallop and is immediately life threatening, still she has no excuse.

The best advice given to me, was "Report it and get out." Report it because abusers lie and shift the blame.

It took me years of not reporting it to do so. I chalked them all up to just one more episode of crazy town, but crazy town escalates and it does so fast.

My advice, don't underestimate ANYONE who can punch you in the face and then blame you for it, even if they are of the fairer sex.[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pht,
I consider you a totally straight shooter. While I disagreed with your depiction of this topic, I don't question your 'intent'. You say what you mean. My comment about 'game playing' was directed at the 'board', not you. 







PHTlump said:


> As someone you've accused of playing games with these statistics, I'll respond. If you want to define domestic violence/abuse in the traditional way, where one partner ends up dead or hospitalized, then I will agree with you. Women are usually the victims.
> 
> However, that definition certainly contains elements of sexual bias. It essentially rewards women for being violent, yet without the physical means to cause significant harm. It ignores intent, which is an important element of criminal law.
> 
> ...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Great insight, mem! I'm sorry your marriage is so painful  but I think you make important points and show a nuanced understanding regarding DV



> Given the large difference between us in height, reach, bone density and muscle mass at no point during or after did I feel fear, or it's first cousin - rage.


So your wife could not use the tactic to control and dominate you. Abuse is "misuse of power". Being larger and stronger is a form of "power".

According to marriage researcher John Gottman:

One statistic which has been minimized or avoided: In 71% of all violent fights, the woman engages in the first physically violent act…

Despite the statistic, *it is only men who use violence to systematically terrorize, control, and subdue their wives. Battering is not simply the use of violence, but its use in service of control, intimidation, and domination*. from "The Marriage Clinic"​


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Pht,
> I consider you a totally straight shooter. While I disagreed with your depiction of this topic, I don't question your 'intent'. You say what you mean. My comment about 'game playing' was directed at the 'board', not you.


Fair enough. While you communicated your disagreement with the statistics I posted, I certainly wasn't insulted by it.

I do think that reform on domestic violence is necessary. We seem, as a society, to have swung the pendulum from a place where husbands could beat their wives with impunity, to a place where we are so worried about wife beaters that we encourage wives to falsely accuse husbands of abuse and we frequently ignore the possibility that wives can beat husbands. I hope it swings back to a middle ground where both sexes share the presumption of innocence and the protection of the law.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holland,
100 percent agree with that. Children need and deserve a safe home environment. Adults have more choices especially those living in affluent democracies. 

That said, there is a subset of abusers (mostly men) who use the threat of violence against their own children as a means of controlling their partners. I don't blame those mothers for taking the kids and going into hiding. 



Holland said:


> My already high opinion of you just skyrocketed Mem. Thank you for being the voice of reason around this place, balanced and honest input from you as always.
> 
> Personally I have neither suffered or dealt out any DV but have nothing but empathy for those that have. No one should ever have to live this way, male or female. But we are all adults here, it is the children that need more protection.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cosmos,
The beauty of a man who understands that all power comes with an equal amount of responsibility. 




Cosmos said:


> This is the correct response from a man who encounters abusive and _cowardly_ female behaviour. I say cowardly, because most women know that decent men won't hit back.
> 
> I trust my SO implicitly, and even though he could kill me with one blow (he has iron hard muscles and is built like a Viking), I know he would _never_ lift a hand to me - no matter what. For this reason alone (even though there are many other reasons, too), it would be utter cowardice for me to even think of getting physical with him.
> 
> Your post is spot on, OP.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Convection,
Love the name - my uncle has a bunch of patents on gas flow meters based on convection. 

Our youngest graduates HS in June. I told my W that I would like to put the house on the market in the Spring, sell it shortly after she graduates, and finalize our divorce at that time. 

If necessary, one of us will move out prior to June/July but I don't expect that to be necessary. 

I have already emailed her a proposed financial settlement which she said she 'wouldn't fight'. I am cautiously optimistic that we can keep our parting amicable. 




Convection said:


> MEM ...
> 
> This very hard for me to write, because I have always enjoyed reading your posts and think you have a lot of wisdom to impart. For the sake of argument, I will stipulate your admonitions to both genders. But on your personal note, you are fooling yourself.
> 
> ...


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

I actually take my user name from the meteorological sense, though the fluid dynamics principles are similar. But I digress.

Re: divorce. I am actually very sorry to hear that, MEM. It's disheartening, as I have always held you up, at least to myself, as someone who has overcome a lot of marital hurdles. But you sound as though you are approaching it from the right angle. I hope you can find a way to minimize the pain and come out the other side all right.

Best of luck.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Our youngest graduates HS in June. I told my W that I would like to put the house on the market in the Spring, sell it shortly after she graduates, and finalize our divorce at that time.
> 
> If necessary, one of us will move out prior to June/July but I don't expect that to be necessary.
> 
> I have already emailed her a proposed financial settlement which she said she 'wouldn't fight'. I am cautiously optimistic that we can keep our parting amicable.


Sorry to hear all of this MEM ...just seems so out of the blue.....a lot of women go through some crazy changes in mid life...our hormones are all over the place..in the form of wild mood swings, self-doubt, and sadness.... some even need MEDS in order to keep it together... I have a friend....she was sabotaging all of her relationships...her BF couldn't handle her...he had to keep breaking up even saying (around us) it was too much for his heart, and didn't want to have a heart attack...she had to see the Doc for some meds to calm her....

Just wondering how much of her behavior, if any... do you contribute to peri-menopause/ menopause madness?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

While I understand why you believe your arguments, the bottom line is that abuse is abuse. It doesn't matter if it's emotional, physical, or sexual, it all causes tremendous damage and lifelong scars. Both sexes are equally guilty, because abuse cannot happen without two people actively participating. Perhaps one uses a fist, but the other one is there with condescending attitudes and belittling words - two abusers being abused nearly 100% of the time. One person may escalate more, but the "innocent" party still plays a role that ignores or ridicules the "abuser's" needs and opinions. 

Statistics be damned, I stand by the belief that both parties should face charges in every instance of DV. (And I say that as someone who has participated in far too many incidents of DV as the supposed "victim" and the unreported "abuser." 

I find it interesting that you posted all this and then you go on to describe the incident with your wife and use the words you chose. NOT ONCE did you say she abused you, but she did. (Highlighted your words below). Those same exact actions on her part would have a dramatically different outcome if directed at a toddler even though she didn't do anything differently.

Abuse can happen without creating fear or landing someone in a grave. I think of it like the example my communications professor in college offered:

"You cannot not communicate, but that doesn't always mean communication happens. If I wave at you but you don't see it, then communication was 'intended but not received.' If I wave at Joe and you think I waved at you, then communication was 'not intended, but received.' If I wave at you and you wave back, it was 'intended and received,' but if I don't wave and you don't wave back, it was "not intended, not received.'"

Abuse can be classified similarly: intended and received, unintended and received (false accusations may result), intended but not received (such as how you perceive the event you experienced), or unintended and not received (because it didn't happen.)

By not acknowledging these distinctions, I think we let a lot of guilty parties go unpunished, and a lot of innocent parties get punished. (I don't mean just in the legal sense.) 



MEM11363 said:


> One last comment, and this is on a personal note. Last week, for the first and only time in almost 25 years my W punched me in the face and kicked me during a very tense argument.
> 
> In response I grabbed her wrists and said 'you need to stop', and then after a few seconds I let go. She proceeded to tell me that I was being 'emotionally abusive and needed to leave the house immediately'. I shook my head in disbelief and said 'it's our house, not your house and if you don't wish to be in my company you are welcome to get an apartment'.
> 
> ...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

I am said:


> Worst part of domestic violence is keeping quiet knowing everything.


Complaining about it or even being aware of it certainly isn't helping anyones masculinity.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MEM, this really surprised me. It's saddening. 

I'm glad that you know this is unacceptable.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

MEM:
I am so sorry to hear of this development in your marriage. Your "thermostat" thread is a TAM classic:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html.

I hope that your wife learns strategies to deal with her anger, but some people have too much pride to ask for help with their emotional issues.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I believe this to be a very important topic - especially for current or future parents.
> 
> I am going to kick this off with a couple of harsh observations.
> 
> ...


Statistics and anecdotes mean squat when you are on the receiving end regardless of the sex of the abuser. Women are very capable of inflicting MAJOR damage on even the strongest man. All you need is some leverage. I think that once a relationship has devolved into physical altercation its time to end it. People who resort to physical violence because their feelings were hurt or not getting their way deserve to be jailed and divorced. 

In short, even though men statistically commit the most violent crimes, a DV is a DV and should be prosecuted as such. 

Unfortunately our pride as macho men gets in the way of the law. If a women attacks a man she should be ARRESTED and charged period. If a man does the same he should be ARRESTED and charged period.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Great insight, mem! I'm sorry your marriage is so painful  but I think you make important points and show a nuanced understanding regarding DV
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure. Women who "know the system" can be conniving and do not have to be larger than you to "domininate" you. They snare you through getting you to fall in love or have children, then they use violence and abuse to systematically terrorize and control you. I'm tired of pointing out these positions someone can get into, and we should know to get out immediately and worry about my MAP plan for life!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blonde,
For over a week I listened, and waited. And as the dust settled this is what I heard:
I'm sorry for hitting you. 

And this is what I didn't hear:
That will NEVER happen again. 

When you're in a deep hole and you want to get out, the very first thing you have to do is STOP DIGGING. 

Last night, she initiated a reconciliation during which she said: Well I know I swung at you, I don't know that I hit you. 

After 24 years - you know your partner really well. She was not saying this in an attempt to antagonize me. We all have a 'tendency' to explain, justify or minimize our role in events after the fact. Under duress we also tend to become 'more like ourselves'. Still, that statement really left a mark. 

We then had a short, painful exchange during which I observed that this was yet another example of her doing something really hurtful and then minimizing it, and in so doing, minimizing me.

I then took my pillow, my unwanted adrenaline spike, and what was left of my shredded ego upstairs to sleep. 



QUOTE=Blonde;5834769]Great insight, mem! I'm sorry your marriage is so painful  but I think you make important points and show a nuanced understanding regarding DV



So your wife could not use the tactic to control and dominate you. Abuse is "misuse of power". Being larger and stronger is a form of "power".

According to marriage researcher John Gottman:

One statistic which has been minimized or avoided: In 71% of all violent fights, the woman engages in the first physically violent act…

Despite the statistic, *it is only men who use violence to systematically terrorize, control, and subdue their wives. Battering is not simply the use of violence, but its use in service of control, intimidation, and domination*. from "The Marriage Clinic"​[/QUOTE]


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm very sorry to hear about your divorce plans MEM.

Saying that though, I am also relieved for you. Reading your posts over the years, your wife has struck me as a very particular kind of nightmare. Although in one way I'm very shocked that she would take it to the level of physical abuse, in another way it is the logical escalation of her emotional abuse and controlling inflexibility.

No one should have to 'handle' the person they live with so carefully. No-one should need the kind of detailed escalating conflict flow charts you have outlined here for dealing with unreasonable behaviour. 

It's always sounded completely exhausting to me. Good luck with everything, and I wish you a happy, easy relationship in the future.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trey,
That's true. And also true that I did not want to impair her ability to remain employed especially given what's coming. 



QUOTE=treyvion;5827834]Theyll KILL you. Men abuses are highly misreported because men dont say anything out of the social stigma of being considered weak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Convection,
I have 'A simple plan'. 

1. We ARE getting divorced. Quickly and as amicably as I can manage it. 
2. During the divorce, my STBXW will have 6+ months to demonstrate that she understands why I am ending our marriage and as a step in the right direction, do her part to enable an 'amicable' divorce. 
3. If she does that, I expect to be open to us 'dating' POST divorce to see if we can etch a brand new pattern. One where I am an equal partner, which I sure as hell am not right now. 

------------

There isn't anyone else. There never has been. Last night my W made some comments about how quickly I would find a younger, healthier partner who could have 'intercourse', and play tennis and other sports with me. And I told her the half the truth which is I don't want a younger, healthier partner. 

The other half is - I want a sane, emotionally healthy partner who does not emotionally dis-regulate when they 'aren't getting their way'. Because she will either figure that out on her own or the population of crazy town is going to plummet from (2) today, to (1) this summer. 





Convection said:


> I actually take my user name from the meteorological sense, though the fluid dynamics principles are similar. But I digress.
> 
> Re: divorce. I am actually very sorry to hear that, MEM. It's disheartening, as I have always held you up, at least to myself, as someone who has overcome a lot of marital hurdles. But you sound as though you are approaching it from the right angle. I hope you can find a way to minimize the pain and come out the other side all right.
> 
> Best of luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
Just seems a gradual worsening of a lot of traits I was willing to work around when we were younger. My youngest says I spoiled her by providing too much for too little effort on her part. I think that is half of it. 

Mark



SimplyAmorous said:


> Sorry to hear all of this MEM ...just seems so out of the blue.....a lot of women go through some crazy changes in mid life...our hormones are all over the place..in the form of wild mood swings, self-doubt, and sadness.... some even need MEDS in order to keep it together... I have a friend....she was sabotaging all of her relationships...her BF couldn't handle her...he had to keep breaking up even saying (around us) it was too much for his heart, and didn't want to have a heart attack...she had to see the Doc for some meds to calm her....
> 
> Just wondering how much of her behavior, if any... do you contribute to peri-menopause/ menopause madness?







SimplyAmorous said:


> Sorry to hear all of this MEM ...just seems so out of the blue.....a lot of women go through some crazy changes in mid life...our hormones are all over the place..in the form of wild mood swings, self-doubt, and sadness.... some even need MEDS in order to keep it together... I have a friend....she was sabotaging all of her relationships...her BF couldn't handle her...he had to keep breaking up even saying (around us) it was too much for his heart, and didn't want to have a heart attack...she had to see the Doc for some meds to calm her....
> 
> Just wondering how much of her behavior, if any... do you contribute to peri-menopause/ menopause madness?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mem, having just caught up on this thread I am really sorry to hear how your life is going. 

My partners ex has some reasonably serious mental health issues and he has suffered from a lot of verbal abuse from her. It is more than 3 years post separation for him and slowly he is getting his life in order.

Be kind to yourself but keep walking tall.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
Thank you. Honestly - when she is good she is very very good, but when she is bad she is indeed awful. 

The good:
- Maturity and restraint when it comes to the 'mechanics of life' - money, healthy lifestyle, etc. 
- Energetic 
- Clever and funny and quick witted 
- Mostly upbeat and great at being 'in the moment'
- Organized and a great sense of aesthetics
- Great in bed - incredible mix of science and art. 
- Highly affectionate - perfect in this area 
- Playful and good at converting the sparks from playful conflict into intense heat 
- Honest and high integrity about the mechanics of life - if you dropped a wallet with 10K in it, she would track you to the end of the earth to return it

The bad:
- Capable of extreme selfishness 
- Fights dirty, capable of 'lying in wait', 'sucker punching' and 'gas lighting'
- Often dishonest about emotions and motives
- Controlling - very controlling 
- Competitive in an unhealthy way 
- Often more focused on 'getting her way' than having a loving marriage. 

I heard this quote on 'Homeland', that really resonated: she is the dumbest fvckin smart person I have ever known. 

I'm gonna miss her. 


QUOTE=Lyris;5863946]I'm very sorry to hear about your divorce plans MEM.

Saying that though, I am also relieved for you. Reading your posts over the years, your wife has struck me as a very particular kind of nightmare. Although in one way I'm very shocked that she would take it to the level of physical abuse, in another way it is the logical escalation of her emotional abuse and controlling inflexibility.

No one should have to 'handle' the person they live with so carefully. No-one should need the kind of detailed escalating conflict flow charts you have outlined here for dealing with unreasonable behaviour. 

It's always sounded completely exhausting to me. Good luck with everything, and I wish you a happy, easy relationship in the future.[/QUOTE]






Lyris said:


> I'm very sorry to hear about your divorce plans MEM.
> 
> Saying that though, I am also relieved for you. Reading your posts over the years, your wife has struck me as a very particular kind of nightmare. Although in one way I'm very shocked that she would take it to the level of physical abuse, in another way it is the logical escalation of her emotional abuse and controlling inflexibility.
> 
> ...


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

MEM, as someone who has read your posts here and on LS for a long time, I am so sorry to hear of this new information/worsening of things with your wife. I have always admired your grasp of the female-male relationship dynamics, and it's been clear that you love your wife enormously. 

"Dumbest fvckin smart person" indeed. I hope she takes this as a wake-up call and gets some help. Either way, though, I know you will be OK.




MEM11363 said:


> Lyris,
> Thank you. Honestly - when she is good she is very very good, but when she is bad she is indeed awful.
> 
> The good:
> ...


[/QUOTE]


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I'm gonna miss her.


You have children together, right? You'll still see her at all the weddings, graduations, baptisms, Facebook photos with the grandkids, etc...

only you'll each have your new squeeze in the picture with their offspring, etc (not to mention their own list of good and bad qualities- we are all human)

I don't know a lot of your history and I realize this was a very painful episode but her good qualities really sound good and you might miss them more than you anticipate in the next squeeze. Your wife sounds very passionate which is clearly a double edged sword but what if the next one has no passion? If I was you, I might at least wait until a couple years after the menopause dust settles.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> If I was you, I might at least wait until a couple years after the menopause dust settles.


Wow! Sorry, but I am dumbfounded by this thought. She hit him in the face, is now trying to deny she did so, and the advice is too wait a couple of years because her hormones made her do it. 
I have no words.

MEMS - I wish you luck as you navigate through this. I understand what you are doing what you feel you have to do. I truly hope she recognizes what she did and gets the help that she needs. But more importantly, I hope that you reach peace with whatever the outcome.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Wow! Sorry, but I am dumbfounded by this thought. She hit him in the face, is now trying to deny she did so, and the advice is too wait a couple of years because her hormones made her do it.
> I have no words.


No, to wait a couple years because he listed a LOT of good qualities and they share children thus will never be rid of each other regardless.

My husband hit me once 30 years ago. He never did it again. It was an "episode" not a lifestyle. (We were newlyweds. My brother read him the riot act.)

((((Shrug)))) I have no dog in this hunt. Mem can put her to the curbside because of this or not. 

I just liked the OP, that Mem sees the nuance. If my 5 year old child was to attempt to "beat me up" in a fit of rage, I would not consider that DV. I would feel disrespected but I am bigger and stronger and was never in any danger. OTH if I do it to the child, that is DV. Abuse is about an imbalance of POWER. One might make a case that a verbally adept woman has more verbal POWER than her H but usually the man has the POWER when it comes to physical. (this could change for infirm elderly- I have seen statistics for my county indicating that elderly women more often abuse their spouses than vice versa- extremely small sample size though so non-generalizable)

ETA- Diary of a Mad Black Woman comes to mind. When her H was in a wheelchair, it was payback time!!!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blonde,
What you say about another partner is true, and that is why the 10s are a ten. 

I will tell you what I told her: 

I'm never gonna love anybody else like I love you. I accept that. And I am never gonna let anybody else get away with the selfish, controlling and mean spirited bull shlt you have pulled during this marriage. 

Way before menopause we had this theme:
Me: do you want to go for a walk 
Her: I'm a little tired tonight, I think I'm going to pass
Us: A moment or two of banter, we are both laughing and I leave to go for a walk

Now - this next bit is rare in terms of intensity but not that rare in terms of type of behavior. 

An hour later I come in to the house, walk into the master bath (for a shower) and she is in the shower. As I enter the bathroom she gives me this look of - fury - it is the verbal equivalent to a 'fvck you'. I instantly flood internally, grit my teeth and say nothing. I know this drill. If I wait a til she is calm and ask in a non threatening manner what that was about, I have an equal chance of getting:
- Flat denial, she doesn't know what I am talking about. 
- An explanation that isn't true
- A rapid escalation of aggression on her part
- The truth and a sincere apology

But I am pretty sure I know the 'truth' which is that she was furious that I went on the walk 'without her'. 

So I say nothing. And within a minute or two she starts talking to me as if nothing had just transpired. And I am giving her very cool and muted responses. I shower and get in bed. She offers and then gives me a long combo back massage/back scratch while we watch tv. 

As we're drifting off to sleep she says 'I'm sorry for being such a bltch before' and I say 'I love you'. And we go to sleep. 

Inside the house - she doesn't mind if I play Gran Turismo 5 for hours on end. But sometimes (not always) when I leave the house to do stuff on my own, even when I sincerely ask her to join me before I go, she gets anxious/angry and creates conflict upon my return. 

We watched a few episodes of a tv series. She found it a bit too raw. We had a couple conversations afterwards where she made it clear that she was not happy that I was continuing to watch it. 

She sometimes does disruptive stuff before/during trips I make to visit my FAMILY. 

When caught with both hands in the cookie jar and crumbs on her lips she will immediately apologize. But it doesn't change anything. 

And it isn't 'every' time, but it is often enough to reflect a determined effort on her part to discourage me from doing this stuff. 

And - in aggregate - this stuff becomes oppressive. I want to be loved, not 'possessed'. 





QUOTE=Blonde;5882546]You have children together, right? You'll still see her at all the weddings, graduations, baptisms, Facebook photos with the grandkids, etc...

only you'll each have your new squeeze in the picture with their offspring, etc (not to mention their own list of good and bad qualities- we are all human)

I don't know a lot of your history and I realize this was a very painful episode but her good qualities really sound good and you might miss them more than you anticipate in the next squeeze. Your wife sounds very passionate which is clearly a double edged sword but what if the next one has no passion? If I was you, I might at least wait until a couple years after the menopause dust settles.[/QUOTE]


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> No, to wait a couple years because he listed a LOT of good qualities and they share children thus will never be rid of each other regardless.
> 
> My husband hit me once 30 years ago. He never did it again. It was an "episode" not a lifestyle. (We were newlyweds. My brother read him the riot act.)
> 
> ...


I still disagree. I see a definition of abuse that excuses a women from any responsibility for physical violence against an able bodied man, even though there many tools that allow a change to that balance of power.

I also see a person who has not taken responsibility for what she has done and seems unwilling to work to ensure that this behavior would not happen again. I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that your husbands did not react like she did.

I also see a person who places a higher value on winning than on doing what is right for the marriage. When they perceive that they are winning, they are truly a joy to be around. But when they lose, few things are off limits to reverse that result.

I also don't have a dog in this hunt. But to waive away her behavior because it is due to hormones is incredible to me.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> And - in aggregate - this stuff becomes oppressive. *I want to be loved, not 'possessed'.*


I hear ya! Actually identify very much with that sentiment in my own marriage. We have a nice balance of him being "on the road" and I have my own life.

I suggest work on boundaries. You CAN build them after decades of being weak. I did so and the atmosphere of the marriage improved (even though my H would never engage with IC either). He's a better father now too. I see him catching himself when he's getting verbally abusive, calming himself down and reframing the discussion in a more gentle respectful way (happened with 13 yos yesterday)

It does take consistency and quite a long time for someone to learn new habits after decades practicing bad ones, but it is not impossible.

But I would never throw stones if you decide to move on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rose,
Thank you. That is a very kind thing to say. For a long time my W mostly brought out the very best of what I am capable of. Her methods were at times harsh, but the results were stellar. 

That is simply no longer true. So - we will see what happens. 



RoseAglow said:


> MEM, as someone who has read your posts here and on LS for a long time, I am so sorry to hear of this new information/worsening of things with your wife. I have always admired your grasp of the female-male relationship dynamics, and it's been clear that you love your wife enormously.
> 
> "Dumbest fvckin smart person" indeed. I hope she takes this as a wake-up call and gets some help. Either way, though, I know you will be OK.


[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tall,
Yes yes yes. This is NOT about a 'one time' momentary lapse of impulse control. It is about everything that followed and didn't follow the 'event'. 

And it's also about a lot of other examples of behavior that is not even close to ok. 

I left a big 6 consulting firm in the late 90s to join a small software company. After accepting their offer and resigning my position I learned they didn't offer life insurance. I delayed my start date by 6 weeks in order to obtain 500K in private life insurance. To do so I needed to take a full physical. Bottom line, I was absolutely unwilling to leave my W in a badly exposed financial situation in the event of my death. 

At the time I was getting insurance I asked her to obtain either 100k or 200k in insurance (don't remember which) so that I could hire a live in maid/nanny for our KIDS if anything happened to her. 
At that time we had an 8 year old, a 4 year old and a 2 year old. 

Typically my W excels at paperwork/admin stuff. I do not. And yet, 2 YEARS later I happened to ask her if she had gotten her life insurance set up and she admitted that she had done nothing about it. So I called our insurance guy and told him to 'get it done'. He did. I was fvcking stunned. And hurt. 

Five years later our circumstances had changed a lot. I called our insurance guy again and jacked my private coverage to 1.25 MM even though by that time I had a 350K plan through my company giving me a total of 1.6 MM in coverage. And in parallel I asked my W to increase her coverage to 200K. I made that request 10 years ago. And last month, going through paperwork I learned that she never did. 

By itself, that is hurtful. Given what happened initially with the insurance it is even more so. Sadly it is just one more case of me being DETERMINED to ensure about her well being and her not seeming to be at all worries about me. 




Tall Average Guy said:


> Wow! Sorry, but I am dumbfounded by this thought. She hit him in the face, is now trying to deny she did so, and the advice is too wait a couple of years because her hormones made her do it.
> I have no words.
> 
> MEMS - I wish you luck as you navigate through this. I understand what you are doing what you feel you have to do. I truly hope she recognizes what she did and gets the help that she needs. But more importantly, I hope that you reach peace with whatever the outcome.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tall,
Yes. She sometimes (not always) becomes 'disregulated' when she isn't 'getting her way'. Once that happens, rules of engagement be damned. Geneva convention - what's that? 

If she was half - nay - if she was a quarter as giving outside the bedroom as she is inside the bedroom, we would be fine......l




Tall Average Guy said:


> I still disagree. I see a definition of abuse that excuses a women from any responsibility for physical violence against an able bodied man, even though there many tools that allow a change to that balance of power.
> 
> I also see a person who has not taken responsibility for what she has done and seems unwilling to work to ensure that this behavior would not happen again. I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that your husbands did not react like she did.
> 
> ...


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Back to your OP--it brought to mind my own D process. Attorney practically begged me to come up with anything during the marriage that could be used as an accusation of physical abuse against the H. I was appalled. I wanted a D, sure, and with just cause: many things he did I considered "abusive" of the institution of M, but NO WAY was I going to falsely accuse him of being a serial domestic abuser. Even if he did once slap me and pull me by the hair in front of the kids. But the (female) attorney was insistent that it would be a quicker way of getting what we supposedly wanted in the D. She finally backed off when I refused to call him an abuser in that sense.

That's for people like the young lady in this area who had sex with the ex after breaking up, and while she slept afterward, he crushed her skull w/ a baseball bat because he looked thru her phone and found texts from other men. 

Perspective.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Questar,
100 percent with you. No way would I use this as leverage in a divorce. 

In terms of actual distress, I can easily list more than a dozen verbal/emotional things she has done which caused me more than our scuffle. Besides - she's also done a hell of a lot of nice/loving things during our 24 years together. Loyalty is important. 


QUOTE=questar1;5894354]Back to your OP--it brought to mind my own D process. Attorney practically begged me to come up with anything during the marriage that could be used as an accusation of physical abuse against the H. I was appalled. I wanted a D, sure, and with just cause: many things he did I considered "abusive" of the institution of M, but NO WAY was I going to falsely accuse him of being a serial domestic abuser. Even if he did once slap me and pull me by the hair in front of the kids. But the (female) attorney was insistent that it would be a quicker way of getting what we supposedly wanted in the D. She finally backed off when I refused to call him an abuser in that sense.

That's for people like the young lady in this area who had sex with the ex after breaking up, and while she slept afterward, he crushed her skull w/ a baseball bat because he looked thru her phone and found texts from other men. 

Perspective.[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blonde,
Balanced, insightful viewpoint below. 

The rationale for ending the marriage is to rebalance the power dynamic. 

Amazing but here we are just a few days from me dropping the hammer and the Good Wife seems to be in full introspection mode as opposed to 'relentless domination' mode. 

You can laugh if you like - because it might seem that I have lost my mind but I am starting to think about getting divorced and leaving my ring on for a full year. That gives the Good Wife a year to screw her head back on. 



QUOTE=Blonde;5883834]No, to wait a couple years because he listed a LOT of good qualities and they share children thus will never be rid of each other regardless.

My husband hit me once 30 years ago. He never did it again. It was an "episode" not a lifestyle. (We were newlyweds. My brother read him the riot act.)

((((Shrug)))) I have no dog in this hunt. Mem can put her to the curbside because of this or not. 

I just liked the OP, that Mem sees the nuance. If my 5 year old child was to attempt to "beat me up" in a fit of rage, I would not consider that DV. I would feel disrespected but I am bigger and stronger and was never in any danger. OTH if I do it to the child, that is DV. Abuse is about an imbalance of POWER. One might make a case that a verbally adept woman has more verbal POWER than her H but usually the man has the POWER when it comes to physical. (this could change for infirm elderly- I have seen statistics for my county indicating that elderly women more often abuse their spouses than vice versa- extremely small sample size though so non-generalizable)

ETA- Diary of a Mad Black Woman comes to mind. When her H was in a wheelchair, it was payback time!!![/QUOTE]


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MEM, that was a well reasoned perspective on DV. Your posts are always insightful, respectful and smack on the money. Your response to your wife's violence against you was also insightful and respectful.

If I tried to punch my husband I would just break a bone in the process, and from every single couple I know the same would hold true. While it is wrong and abusive, the end result of a woman hitting a man vs a man hitting a woman is no where near comparable. Men are simply bigger and stronger. They can take a hit better and they can hit better...this I learned growing up with brothers who all of a sudden (puberty) laughed at my attempts to get back at them. Couldn't even budge them with a surprise push attack! 

FWIW, I think your plan to reset your marriage is likely to succeed. I'm sorry you have to resort to this, but it is clear the dynamic your wife is attached to will not reset with both of you under the same roof. I don't think her selfishness is likely to change, but the way she deals with being triggered to defend herself will have to change.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> What you say about another partner is true, and that is why the 10s are a ten.
> 
> I will tell you what I told her:
> ...


 Sounds you have been putting yourself down a long long time... not getting your "companionship" needs met by her....among other things ..also her not feeling it necessary on the life Insurance front..for your Needs ...where you was so careful for hers to be met in the event of the unthinkable. 

Not much "self awareness" going forth on her part ...which could have made such a difference over the years...sounds she just got into the growing habit of just blowing you off....







.. 



> *So I say nothing. And within a minute or two she starts talking to me as if nothing had just transpired. And I am giving her very cool and muted responses.* I shower and get in bed. She offers and then gives me a long combo back massage/back scratch while we watch tv.


 And there is your descending "thermostat" responses (not being cruel...but calm) to her behavior...though all of this slowly builds inside, as I could only imagine...

So if/when you blew a fuse (as I am sure you have over the years)..you got lingering denial from her...she couldn't fully acknowledge how she was hurting you inside...or the changes just never came. 



> Inside the house - she doesn't mind if I play Gran Turismo 5 for hours on end. But sometimes (not always) when I leave the house to do stuff on my own, *even when I sincerely ask her to join me before I go,* she gets anxious/angry and creates conflict upon my return.


 I would imagine, after so much of this...the asking also took a dive. 



> And it isn't 'every' time, but it is often enough to reflect a determined effort on her part to discourage me from doing this stuff.
> 
> And - in aggregate - *this stuff becomes oppressive. I want to be loved, not 'possessed'.*


 Yes, it would ....slowly eat away at you. 



MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> Just seems a gradual worsening of a lot of traits I was willing to work around when we were younger. *My youngest says I spoiled her by providing too much for too little effort on her part. I think that is half of it. *


 Pretty telling for your own daughter to say this... I always felt you was one who DIDN'T DO this so much...because of your thermostat thread...but still -when always turning it down...to please someone else....this would steal a part of your happiness.......you needed to her to share in your joys/ interests too, giving of herself...willingly.. 

A shame she couldn't grow with you..do you feel what is happening is sinking in....what is coming...I wonder if it will be a "*Don't know what you got till it's gone*" that comes over her...and she'll beg you to come back...


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2galsmom said:


> That was one lousy lawyer questar1. Look, you need proof of any allegations you bring up in court. Proof. There are so many urban legends of the evil lying wife, who destroyed her spouse in court and ruined his life with lies, all lies!


Well, they're not all urban legends.
One man spent 83 days in solitary confinement when his ex staged a rape scene during a custody battle.

Darryl Ginyard was repeatedly falsely accused, by his wife, of sexually abusing his daughters in order to alienate him. He lost custody during the multiple investigations, at one point he didn't see his children for 9 months. He lost his job and was unemployed for almost 5 years. He eventually was exonerated and awarded primary custody. But his relationship with his children has been forever harmed.

Another poster has familiarized himself with divorce court and claims that proof is often unnecessary. First, a restraining order can be granted for the fear of harm. The accused spouse need not ever have been violent. The accuser can simply claim that he has the subjective and inarguable fear of harm, and many judges will immediately grant a temporary restraining order that removes the accused from the home. This is done either without giving the accused the opportunity to defend himself, or giving him only a few minutes, due to time constraints. Many times, the TRO hearings are performed without even notifying the accused.

While the accused is under the restraining order, he may be prevented from seeing his kids entirely, or be subjected to limited, supervised visitation. When the issue of custody and living arrangements are brought up, the accuser will argue to continue the status quo. The status quo that has been established, through false DV allegations, is that the accuser and children live in the home and the accused lives elsewhere and has limited contact with the children. Continuing the status quo is often the standard decision of judges.

Now, ideally, the truth will come out in court and the court will consider the false allegations when deciding the final settlement and custody arrangements. However, that assumes that the accused has the ability to successfully fight the charges. Many of the accused lose their jobs, spend their savings, and are unable to overcome the institutional inertia that works against them. Also, courts are generally reluctant to punish people who falsely accuse their spouses of abuse. It's almost a can't lose situation for an accusatory spouse. That's why it's a popular tactic by divorce lawyers.

False Allegations | Domestic Violence


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

If you get divorced but leave your ring on all that shows is that you're not actually divorced. How will that rebalance anything? She'll still know you're totally in her thrall. 

There's a pattern to your posts MEM. Your wife does something horrible, you pull her into line, she agrees she needed it, things are awesome and fantastic and then - she does something else horrible. 

It's actually pretty much a classic abuse cycle.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kathy,
I thought about this for quite some time. Legally the only things the system should prosecute for in 'adult to adult' relationships are:
- injurious violence
- non injurious violence 
- terroristic threats 

Part of being a grown up is accepting responsibility for identifying bad situations such as emotional abuse and leaving. 

I do however believe that children can and should be protected from emotional abuse to the degree it is possible to provide that protection. 

QUOTE=KathyBatesel;5845113]While I understand why you believe your arguments, the bottom line is that abuse is abuse. It doesn't matter if it's emotional, physical, or sexual, it all causes tremendous damage and lifelong scars. Both sexes are equally guilty, because abuse cannot happen without two people actively participating. Perhaps one uses a fist, but the other one is there with condescending attitudes and belittling words - two abusers being abused nearly 100% of the time. One person may escalate more, but the "innocent" party still plays a role that ignores or ridicules the "abuser's" needs and opinions. 

Statistics be damned, I stand by the belief that both parties should face charges in every instance of DV. (And I say that as someone who has participated in far too many incidents of DV as the supposed "victim" and the unreported "abuser." 

I find it interesting that you posted all this and then you go on to describe the incident with your wife and use the words you chose. NOT ONCE did you say she abused you, but she did. (Highlighted your words below). Those same exact actions on her part would have a dramatically different outcome if directed at a toddler even though she didn't do anything differently.

Abuse can happen without creating fear or landing someone in a grave. I think of it like the example my communications professor in college offered:

"You cannot not communicate, but that doesn't always mean communication happens. If I wave at you but you don't see it, then communication was 'intended but not received.' If I wave at Joe and you think I waved at you, then communication was 'not intended, but received.' If I wave at you and you wave back, it was 'intended and received,' but if I don't wave and you don't wave back, it was "not intended, not received.'"

Abuse can be classified similarly: intended and received, unintended and received (false accusations may result), intended but not received (such as how you perceive the event you experienced), or unintended and not received (because it didn't happen.)

By not acknowledging these distinctions, I think we let a lot of guilty parties go unpunished, and a lot of innocent parties get punished. (I don't mean just in the legal sense.)[/QUOTE]






KathyBatesel said:


> While I understand why you believe your arguments, the bottom line is that abuse is abuse. It doesn't matter if it's emotional, physical, or sexual, it all causes tremendous damage and lifelong scars. Both sexes are equally guilty, because abuse cannot happen without two people actively participating. Perhaps one uses a fist, but the other one is there with condescending attitudes and belittling words - two abusers being abused nearly 100% of the time. One person may escalate more, but the "innocent" party still plays a role that ignores or ridicules the "abuser's" needs and opinions.
> 
> Statistics be damned, I stand by the belief that both parties should face charges in every instance of DV. (And I say that as someone who has participated in far too many incidents of DV as the supposed "victim" and the unreported "abuser."
> 
> ...


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

2galsmom said:


> You really should not tolerate it from females either, there is no excuse for that. Yes, if a man punches a woman it packs more of a wallop and is immediately life threatening, still she has no excuse.
> 
> The best advice given to me, was "Report it and get out." Report it because abusers lie and shift the blame.
> 
> ...


I have never ever struck a woman, but with my first wife the icing on the cake and end to our marriage is when she started hitting me which I have no toleration for at all.


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

2galsmom said:


> There is no excuse for either gender.


The first time she slugged me in my side during an argument which buckled me over, and then apologized for doing that a million times and said it was an accident. But then 3 months later she punched me in the mouth and split my lip during another argument, and it was that very moment I loudly made my declaration of moving out and separating and within 2 weeks I was completely gone! Unfortuneatly she kept on pursuing to get me to come back to the point I had to file a restraining order.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
We both rarely decline each other's requests for quality time. We spend a lot of time doing stuff together. 

Her 'issue' is hard for me to actually understand. But it is easy to describe: she has an intense aversion to feeling 'left out'. So even when she is invited and 'declines', when I go off and do whatever it is she sometimes feels bad/resentful/etc. The 'bigger issue' is that instead of 'self managing' her internal child, she sometimes chooses to engage in 'low intensity emotional terrorism' using tone of voice or body language. 

Like using a 'bltchy' tone when saying 'hey', upon my return. 

She never ever did this in regard to 'work related travel'. Because that was about money, and she is very practical. So my Friday night return after a week away on business - produced a warm and happy welcome. 

But the 1-2 hour walk/workout just for 'me', is a different story. 

She absolutely knows this is crazy, controlling behavior. 

For years I pretended this 'wasn't really happening' because it is so utterly foreign to how 'I feel' when the situation is reversed. I have my own quirks and issues, but I don't feel 'left out/excluded' and I am happy for her to have as much alone time/friend time as she wants. So I couldn't quite 'accept' in my gut that she was actually doing this. 

As always some amount of humorous vaccination works well. Like: Babe, I might be gone for 90 whole minutes, do you want me to see if I can get one of the neighbors to come over and 'sit with you' while I'm away? 

At some level she wants us to 'become' the same person. If that happened, then is wouldn't 'want' to walk/workout when she didn't 'want' to. 






SimplyAmorous said:


> Sounds you have been putting yourself down a long long time... not getting your "companionship" needs met by her....among other things ..also her not feeling it necessary on the life Insurance front..for your Needs ...where you was so careful for hers to be met in the event of the unthinkable.
> 
> Not much "self awareness" going forth on her part ...which could have made such a difference over the years...sounds she just got into the growing habit of just blowing you off....
> 
> ...


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## Wing Man (Jun 8, 2012)

2galsmom said:


> I hope you got your restraining order and not a TRO (which should not last more that 5 days.)
> 
> I will say this, I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who identity and reject abuse in a swift and decisive manner. I was not one of those people. I respect all people to make the journey but I would like to raise two children that will never tolerate the cycle of abuse and should they find themselves in an abusive situation they will hopefully remove themselves immediately.
> 
> I have taught them not to tolerate abuse from anyone, including moi.


Got a full restraining order and haven't seen or talked to her in 10 years so I guess it worked.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> *We both rarely decline each other's requests for quality time. We spend a lot of time doing stuff together. ...
> 
> At some level she wants us to 'become' the same person.* If that happened, then is wouldn't 'want' to walk/workout when she didn't 'want' to.


 IF this how she IS...I am going to say ... your leaving is going to KILL her..or make her go crazy....she'll be begging you to come back to her....



> Her 'issue' is hard for me to actually understand. * But it is easy to describe: she has an intense aversion to feeling 'left out'.*
> So even when she is invited and 'declines', when I go off and do whatever it is she sometimes feels bad/resentful/etc. The 'bigger issue' is that instead of 'self managing' her internal child, she sometimes chooses to engage in 'low intensity emotional terrorism' using tone of voice or body language.


 As they say.. .Abandonment issues ?



> *But the 1-2 hour walk/workout just for 'me', is a different story.*


 She needs to get an account here and those 2 hours so easily can turn into 5 or 6 and only feel like it was an hour ! (I am so guilty of this) 

You'd think she'd be happy with the health benefits of your running like that... 



> For years I pretended this 'wasn't really happening' *because it is so utterly foreign to how 'I feel' when the situation is reversed. I have my own quirks and issues, but I don't feel 'left out/excluded' and I am happy for her to have as much alone time/friend time as she wants. * So I couldn't quite 'accept' in my gut that she was actually doing this.


 she needs to be married to my husband ... he doesn't need alone time.. (I know how rare this is.. we both have it...not thinking about it - but he'd be the 1st to say he loves doing everything together.. . I do love this though.. ...neither of us need a "cave". 

She is going to have a very hard time... I recall you saying she doesn't like Soft men (the Betas)...too sensitive turns her OFF... well...the chances of her finding a man geared Alpha -wanting to be TIED to her like a ball & chain.....I'm going to say...such a man does not exist... She is going to be very lonely when this hits.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2galsmom said:


> So. Which is greater? The percentage of people incarcerated after false accusations or those who are genuinely guilty?


So now we've gone from false allegations of abuse being nothing more than urban legend to a small enough percentage of cases that we can ignore them? What would be your preferred percentage for worrying about it? If only 20% of people who are falsely accused of violence during custody proceedings are incarcerated, should we worry about it? What if the number was 40%? Should we wait until most of the people who are falsely accused of violence are unjustly incarcerated before we suggest that during divorce/custody proceedings, both spouses should have the presumption of innocence before being incarcerated, or kicked out of their homes, or alienated from their children?



> I have met very few abusers that agree they were guilty. They were all framed. Which is greater? People who obtain justifiable restring orders or those who are sneaky liars out to get men? (and now women)


Well, the statistics I've seen state that 700k people are wrongfully arrested for DV each year, and 1.5 million TROs are issued that are trivial, or false. Are those numbers too small to care about? If there are several more justified victims than sneaky liars gaming the system to gain an unfair tactical advantage during a divorce, does that mean the system is working just great? Should we even bother worrying about people gaming the system? Or do those spouses unjustly accused have it coming for some other sins they've probably committed?



> I also do not give heed to anything after "another poster claims" - a nameless poster with no credentials or verifiable statistics gives me no reassurance.


It was just a guy going through a divorce, so he sat through weeks/months of courtroom proceedings to familiarize himself with the process. What he related matches up with the other accounts I've seen online from both studies and the websites of divorce lawyers, as well as anecdotes from divorced friends of mine. I have seen no sources suggesting that false allegations of violence/abuse can be ignored because no consequences will be faced without definitive proof of wrongdoing. I have seen many sources claiming the exact opposite.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2galsmom said:


> I do not dispute the way TRO proceedings work PHTlump, but it seemed that your real issue was with maintaining or should I say abolishing the status quo for the woman and not justice for victims of domestic violence or perjury.


I am wary of the power of the state. It is often abused. I am way of policies that allow one person, who is currently in a dispute with another, to leverage the power of the state to harm another.

The fact is that the family court system has combined with the criminal court system to create powerful incentives for one spouse to falsely accuse another of criminal conduct to gain a tactical advantage during a divorce. And people respond to incentives. The earlier poster even wrote of her lawyer imploring her to falsely accuse her husband of violent behavior. I applaud her honesty in refusing to do so, even though she gave up a potentially significant advantage in her divorce case.

Perhaps I'm an unrealistic optimist to believe that victims of abuse can receive the protection of the law without encouraging others to game the system and harming a great many innocent people by eliminating the presumption of innocence and requiring those accused of violence to prove themselves innocent to avoid the crushing power of the state.


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## NewToHeartBreak (Jul 8, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> A couple observations:
> 1. I was shocked and felt that her behavior was beyond disrespectful.
> 2. I was WAY more upset about her blame shifting and attempt to 'throw me out of HER house' than I was about the physical foolishness.
> 3. Given the large difference between us in height, reach, bone density and muscle mass at no point during or after did I feel fear, or it's first cousin - rage.
> ...


Not in 100% agreement with all of your post though I'm not disagreeing with the stats you mentioned (facts are facts) but agree that receiving a punch from your wife justifies one in return. 

Your reaction mirrors mine, Wife's trip to crazy town left me with similar feelings. It's not an easy thing to process and there's no avoiding confronting her about it if your going to make it work with your wife. The more me and my Wife talked about the easier it got and the less worried I was about a repeat. 

You sound similar to me in that taking a punch that doesn't result in the need for facial surgery really isn't a big deal, bruises heal. The mental side of it is tough to process. 

On the other hand being a red blooded male who likes lifting weights, plays contact sport and has over 100 pounds on her if I'd hit back even once she would have been in the hospital. 

I don't think woman are expected to hold their emotions in check to the same degree as men. I think they are on average no less capable of doing so and I don't see any reason they shouldn't be held to the same standard but the fact is when they do lose their temper the chances of some one ending up dead are a a lot lower. 

There's also the argument that if your a misogynist who genuinely believes men are better then woman then you should be holding your self to a higher standard. Personal I expect my wife to treat me with respect but if she doesn't there is no excuse for reciprocating when I can always walk out the door.


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

As a relative 'noob' to the forum, I'd like to add my own experiences from my marriage. 

First of all, I freely admit to NOT being an 'innocent' party. I'm male and have had the problems with rage and 'flight or flight' situations in our relationship. I'm not proud of them and writing about this, now, brings up huge feelings of guilt, pain and regret. But, as part of attempting to transition to being a better person, a better man, I want to share with the 'group' in the hopes of gaining an understanding of what I have been, and what I could be. 

I try to consider myself a 'nice guy' (and yes, I have started reading the book!), who has made the mistake of holding it in, creating a pressure cooker of unrelieved emotion, that has, on occasion exploded into frustration. 

Let me quickly clarify, this has not resulted in a form of physical violence of assault. Punching, kicking, conscious harm. But rather pushing, shoving or physical restraint (holding of wrists bear hug) 

Writing it out like this makes it obvious, to me, that even this is not an acceptable outcome. However, on occasion this has been necessary. 

How so, I hear the pitchfork and torch brigade cry? 

I have not been alone in my use of resorting to the use of force. I have gone to work in the past with deep gouges in my face, explaining that I was trying to get the kids rabbit out from under the bed, and it 'scratched me', or a gash in my head from being nailed with a well swung coffee mug. My personal favourite was being told, after an argument that took place in our garage (she was in the garage, I was outside), and dodging thrown hammers, wrenches (spanners) and chisels, that "she wasn't throwing them AT me, just in my direction".

Sometimes this has resulted in the aforementioned restraining, to prevent any further harm to either of us. As I mentioned, this part of our lives (which has since stopped, on both sides, over a decade ago) and bringing it up here, brings up a huge sense of regret and wish that neither of us had let things go as far as we did back then. 

I can only suggest, no... RECOMMEND, that if you find yourself in this environment, either as the aggressor or agressee, that you seek out help. RIGHT THE HELL NOW. 

It was only after her arrest for domestic violence and conviction that we realised that things could not go on as they were. While our inability to learn to just walk away from a fight before the red mist kicked in did not happen overnight, we were able, eventually to realise the physical and emotional damage we had caused each other. And that it could not continue. 


Do I consider us 'lucky' to have figured it out in time? Yes. 

Do I wish on everything I have that we had figured it out before we hurt each other? Every damn day. 

Signed, a repentant man.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

According to the wonks @ 538blog the statistical frequency of domestic violence in the NFL is no higher than the general population. Perhaps that's the 'discussion' we need to have.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> According to the wonks @ 538blog the statistical frequency of domestic violence in the NFL is no higher than the general population. Perhaps that's the 'discussion' we need to have.


And some of these big strong and powerful men have domestic violence instigated against them.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ETA: follow the money.

There is money and lifestyle involved that us working stiffs can't begin to comprehend.... And young people.

The pro leagues spend a lot of time teaching rookies such things too. Even at the college level the serous programs go out of their way to shelter players from the realities...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> IF this how she IS...I am going to say ... your leaving is going to KILL her..or make her go crazy....she'll be begging you to come back to her....
> 
> As they say.. .Abandonment issues ?
> 
> ...


My woman's friend ( didn't say it right ) had a current day "Alpha" on the phone. It's a guy with several dozen options that he excersize daily on.

He recently called her a "b1tch" and pretty much had her apologize to him for getting called it. 

He had her out and called her "his main female", but in a joking way.

She was talking about some of his other exploits to him, and for her to mess with him in the first place she has to allow a hole in her self esteem to let his BS pass thru.

I told her to listen to what he says.

Anyway they do it for "fun" and these guys have plenty of drama and they are competitive and want the "top spot" or most attention than the other "girls" they mess with.

The guy was letting her know that he was boning several, and changes up between "good girls" and "bad girls" when he gets bored of tired of either type.

Anyway the alpha wasn't going to apologize for jack, a lot of the joking is very insulting and demeaning but it's all part of the mystique.

I just dont' understand, I guess the same appeal as a hot wife, who you think you love.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Wing Man said:


> The first time she slugged me in my side during an argument which buckled me over, and then apologized for doing that a million times and said it was an accident. But then 3 months later she punched me in the mouth and split my lip during another argument, and it was that very moment I loudly made my declaration of moving out and separating and within 2 weeks I was completely gone! Unfortuneatly she kept on pursuing to get me to come back to the point I had to file a restraining order.


IN her mind she must've owned you.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

There is this little debate in my mind. 

1) this thread was 9 months dead
2) It was revived by newer members
3) It has relevance to current events
4) my Comment would have more to do with Mem's original post than with current events.

So is it appropriate to bring it up?

Well now that my excuses for poor etiquette are out of the way, When I was researching my own situation (see confusing thread I started) I found that the statistics had been presented in a misleading way. Big surprise right? OK from the viewpoint of the victim the 50/ 50 (almost) statistic is this: There are as many male victims of abuse as female. Now here was the shocker to me (not to Mem) Most males who are abused are abused by men. . . . . . . This very neatly explains the 75 /25 ratio Mem reported. 

Now having said that, it is important to remember that female abusers exist, and they are dangerous. 

MN


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