# Time for a Change - Part Two



## movinonup

Hey there TAM family, I previously have been posting in the "Going Through Divorce and Separation" thread, Time for a Change and decided to move my thread here. 

You can kind of read my story there, although I realize now there are some definite plot holes. 

Married almost 7 years, together for about 8 and a half, got married super young, and have three children. Wife and I started off rough, fighting about financial difficulties and our own personal emotional issues, then we tried having kids and had 5 miscarriages in a row. We then adopted and miraculously after some fertility treatments got pregnant, had our son, then got pregnant again, having our daughter.

Through this time and emotional turmoil we had a lot of issues both personal and together, that we just never worked out. Tried counseling a few times but I was usually the one who just wasn't up for it. Never was a fan of counseling, and always thought it just made things worse. Came to realize later unfortunately I was the one making things worse.

I had numerous issues, smoking, drinking, not being healthy food-wise, and kind of lost touch with who I was and stopped being a good husband. I always considered myself a great Dad, and was never "absent", however I started caring more about myself than what my kids wanted to do, such as rather staying home then going out and watching my kids play. I still played with my kids, paid attention to them and everything, but usually I just wanted to stay inside with them as opposed to taking them somewhere, whereas my wife wanted to do the opposite. We separated once for a little while, think my wife hoped that would wake me up, I came back, and then we tried working things out. Unfortunately I don't think I ever woke up. Separated again a few months back without ever really calling it a "separation", then we talked and said we were going to get divorced. Fast forward to today, we've both said and done things that we regret, and I have been just a real jerk to her. Kind of blamed her for the end of the marriage. Through that all though I tried to reconcile and was basically the opposite of the 180 practice, and it was more or less just sad and pathetic. I was needy, I cried, I begged, I apologized, I didn't give her space, pretty much all the above. 

For whatever reason, I "woke up" yesterday, after being fairly cold to each other for a while and basically having no contact for the last couple weeks besides kids stuff, and I realized I was ready to change for my own benefit, for my kids benefit, and the benefit of the marriage. I believe in this marriage and I believe in us, and I realized I didn't want to be cold and distant anymore, I didn't need to fake being nice anymore, and I could do my best to make this work. 

Currently I'm being friendly, as is she, and yesterday we probably had the best day we've had in a long time when it came to communicating. Right now, I'm working on myself as well, and knowing full well that things may not happen for us. Dieting, exercising, cutting seriously down on the drinking and trying to quit smoking. I feel the best I have in a long time about myself, and it feels amazing. I am not pursuing her, I am just being friendly. I'm not being overbearing or needy, I'm just being confident and working on myself. And I can tell she's already noticing. I am going to keep the hope alive within myself that we can make this work. I believe in us, and I believe in our family. I also believe in myself, and know I can be an amazing husband and father, and father-wise have already gotten there. My kids love hanging out with me and we are always doing stuff together. It's an awesome feeling seeing them so happy with me.

Anyways, that's where I'm at right now. Honestly just helps to write it down, and it seems everybody just kind of shares their story, so that's what I wanted to do. I have a long road ahead of me. Wish me luck.


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## Chaparral

Have you read the mens relationship guide linked to below? Can also be downloaded. At leastvread the reviews. Also at amazon. Good luck.


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## EleGirl

Good for you!! I sounds like you have woken up in time to save your marriage and family. 

Some thing that might help you is to read the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Even if you think it's too early to get her involved in reading the books and working on things, you could learn a lot of very good things for your new outlook and way of being.


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## Blossom Leigh

movinonup said:


> Hey there TAM family, I previously have been posting in the "Going Through Divorce and Separation" thread, Time for a Change and decided to move my thread here.
> 
> You can kind of read my story there, although I realize now there are some definite plot holes.
> 
> Married almost 7 years, together for about 8 and a half, got married super young, and have three children. Wife and I started off rough, fighting about financial difficulties and our own personal emotional issues, then we tried having kids and had 5 miscarriages in a row. We then adopted and miraculously after some fertility treatments got pregnant, had our son, then got pregnant again, having our daughter.
> 
> Through this time and emotional turmoil we had a lot of issues both personal and together, that we just never worked out. Tried counseling a few times but I was usually the one who just wasn't up for it. Never was a fan of counseling, and always thought it just made things worse. Came to realize later unfortunately I was the one making things worse.
> 
> I had numerous issues, smoking, drinking, not being healthy food-wise, and kind of lost touch with who I was and stopped being a good husband. I always considered myself a great Dad, and was never "absent", however I started caring more about myself than what my kids wanted to do, such as rather staying home then going out and watching my kids play. I still played with my kids, paid attention to them and everything, but usually I just wanted to stay inside with them as opposed to taking them somewhere, whereas my wife wanted to do the opposite. We separated once for a little while, think my wife hoped that would wake me up, I came back, and then we tried working things out. Unfortunately I don't think I ever woke up. Separated again a few months back without ever really calling it a "separation", then we talked and said we were going to get divorced. Fast forward to today, we've both said and done things that we regret, and I have been just a real jerk to her. Kind of blamed her for the end of the marriage. Through that all though I tried to reconcile and was basically the opposite of the 180 practice, and it was more or less just sad and pathetic. I was needy, I cried, I begged, I apologized, I didn't give her space, pretty much all the above.
> 
> For whatever reason, I "woke up" yesterday, after being fairly cold to each other for a while and basically having no contact for the last couple weeks besides kids stuff, and I realized I was ready to change for my own benefit, for my kids benefit, and the benefit of the marriage. I believe in this marriage and I believe in us, and I realized I didn't want to be cold and distant anymore, I didn't need to fake being nice anymore, and I could do my best to make this work.
> 
> Currently I'm being friendly, as is she, and yesterday we probably had the best day we've had in a long time when it came to communicating. Right now, I'm working on myself as well, and knowing full well that things may not happen for us. Dieting, exercising, cutting seriously down on the drinking and trying to quit smoking. I feel the best I have in a long time about myself, and it feels amazing. I am not pursuing her, I am just being friendly. I'm not being overbearing or needy, I'm just being confident and working on myself. And I can tell she's already noticing. I am going to keep the hope alive within myself that we can make this work. I believe in us, and I believe in our family. I also believe in myself, and know I can be an amazing husband and father, and father-wise have already gotten there. My kids love hanging out with me and we are always doing stuff together. It's an awesome feeling seeing them so happy with me.
> 
> Anyways, that's where I'm at right now. Honestly just helps to write it down, and it seems everybody just kind of shares their story, so that's what I wanted to do. I have a long road ahead of me. Wish me luck.


You sound so much like my husband it's scary and those are exactly the changes he started making that started making a difference in us.

Is it smooth... no, BUT it's manageable and he is bringing things to the table that are buildable and it's making a HUGE difference. Congrats to you!


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## movinonup

Chaparral said:


> Have you read the mens relationship guide linked to below? Can also be downloaded. At leastvread the reviews. Also at amazon. Good luck.


Actually one great thing we have going for us is that there was never any infidelity, which I consider myself very lucky for. It looks like those books are more meant for that situation, is that right?


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## movinonup

EleGirl said:


> Good for you!! I sounds like you have woken up in time to save your marriage and family.
> 
> Some thing that might help you is to read the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Even if you think it's too early to get her involved in reading the books and working on things, you could learn a lot of very good things for your new outlook and way of being.


Man I sure hope so. It's so hard to be patient but I know it's the right thing to do. Of course all day yesterday as we're being super nice to each other I'm thinking (man maybe she'll ask me to come hang out tonight!). Obviously it doesn't work that way, and she is very guarded with good reason. I know (cuz she told me the other day before my "awakening" we'll call it, that she's worried day by day. Doesn't want to get her hopes up that things will be nice between us one day because usually it's done a 180 the very next day or soon after). Determined to be patient, just super hard. I'm seeing her again tonight for our kid's transition, and I just want to grab onto her and hug her and give her a giant kiss, but I know that's not the right thing to do. For anyone that's gone through something like this, any advice as to how to stay patient?


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## movinonup

Blossom Leigh said:


> You sound so much like my husband it's scary and those are exactly the changes he started making that started making a difference in us.
> 
> Is it smooth... no, BUT it's manageable and he is bringing things to the table that are buildable and it's making a HUGE difference. Congrats to you!


Thank you!!

Gotta say it's sure nice to hear that someone has been through this kind of situation, gives me some hope. Such a weird situation though to be working on yourself, hope the other person notices, and hope they'll see that things can work, without actually bringing it up really. Almost sounds like a game or something, but it totally makes sense to me now why she would need the space to figure out things on her own. Obviously just hard to be patient. But I'm doing good so far.

Also, decided to throw away any liquor tonight, and just tried using an e-cig vaporizer thing for the first time on my smoke break, threw away the cigarettes about an hour ago. Also had a good solid healthy lunch and breakfast. Determined to get better.


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## movinonup

So two days in a row getting along with each other, which is honestly amazing. Not sure we've had that since before we were separated. What's cool too is there were a couple things that came up during us talking where previously I would've said something negative, but I stayed positive, and I think it turned out great.

She actually texted me a bunch yesterday, and then apologized if it was weird that she did. I said I definitely didn't mind, and was glad she texted me. I can see just in the last two days how back and forth she's gone with her emotions, either being super guarded or kind of chatting like everything is back the way it was. I honestly see this as a positive thing, because in my head, it sure seems like there's still something there. Could be totally wrong ha, but I'm hopeful.

After a bunch of texting yesterday we had a good transition with the kids, and she told me that if she didn't text back today she wanted to make sure it didn't start a thing (previously when she's not texted back I've been kind of a jerk and very impatient, then that turns into me saying things I shouldn't say, etc.). I told her that's absolutely fine, and I'm working on giving her space. Honestly only reason we talked today was because she was the one that texted me first, and what's funny too is that it was barely even about the kids, it was something she wanted to share about her own life which was cool that she thought of me to tell.

The way things have been gone in the past is that we have a good day, I get overzealous and hopeful, and then when she ends up not texting back later on or the next day I get mean. I know she's waiting for that to happen (cuz she told me ha), and I told her that's definitely not going to happen. I told her I won't bore her with excuses or reassurances (because I know that my actions will speak louder than any words I can say), and she said "we'll see". I know she's super guarded, and I told her that, and I told her I completely understand (which I do). 

This whole time I've been thinking that things were not one-sided in regards to us not getting along and that I have just been reacting to things she's said or done, when in reality, it's been the exact opposite. She's had to guard herself, put her defenses up, because she never knows when I'm going to be a complete jerk to her. Which again, I totally understand. I'm still "awake", and still trying to be completely aware of how my words and actions affect her, and working on being a better person.

I'm still also constantly reminding myself that even if things don't work out between us, I will be a better person, and will be more able to move on if I'm staying positive throughout this whole situation. I already felt this morning in the slightest bit that "ok, if things don't work out between us, I'm still bettering myself and giving myself that much more of an opportunity to succeed in life and be happy". I certainly hope we can make it work, but am very much working on accepting that it very well may not. Update with my unhealthy habits, I officially decided I won't be drinking alone anymore (problems with that now and in our marriage), I threw away any booze I had, and am on my last pack of cigarettes. Did not succeed in not smoking yesterday but I know I have to take it one day at a time. Going to be doing tons of research today to see what advice I can get on quitting smoking, maybe purchase some nicotine gum or a patch, because I'm not sure the ecig is going to get the job done, but maybe if I just cover it from all fronts, I'll have the best chance at succeeding. I REALLY want to quit smoking, it is just crazy hard. I also had my second day of eating healthy yesterday, and it feels great. No booze consumed yesterday either, and guess what? I was fine ha. I think not drinking will also help with the not smoking too, since it always seems to come hand in hand. When I get home, I want a drink and a smoke, and I need to stop that.

Also last night she told me that she was definitely worried about things getting bad again, which I understand, but was also worried about things getting good and then it getting confusing. I believe what she meant by that was that how I've been last couple days has been confusing, and I've definitely been able to see that in her, I think she's not quite sure what to do with "nice movinonup". Which I get. I caught myself from texting her something last night that either didn't need to be said or could just wait until next time I see her, and today I'm planning on going NC so she can have some space. It's going to be really easy for me to just text her or email her and see how things are going, and that was the old me, not the new me. I'm working unbelievably hard on patience, because I definitely suck at that, and it's going well so far. So why would I screw it up and get in my own way? Have to keep reminding myself that no matter what happens, this is the best thing to do in the long run. If nothing else, it will allow me to have a good working relationship with the mother of my children. Anyways, I think that's it for now. Hope everyone else is doing good!


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## Blossom Leigh

Deconstruct the old...

take it down to the bare dirt

replace your cornerstones

start new construction

accept new construction as messy

pepper it with much grace

before long you will see walls standing and preparing for the roof on top.... 

just be patient.... and give her space for her emotions without judgement...


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## movinonup

Blossom Leigh said:


> Deconstruct the old...
> 
> take it down to the bare dirt
> 
> replace your cornerstones
> 
> start new construction
> 
> accept new construction as messy
> 
> pepper it with much grace
> 
> before long you will see walls standing and preparing for the roof on top....
> 
> just be patient.... and give her space for her emotions without judgement...


It's amazing how much better I feel just over the last couple days. Been hard not to contact her today but actually not nearly as hard as I thought it would be. I want her to know I'm changing for the better, and I want her to see my actions as being different than what she's used to, but I have to keep reminding myself I'm doing this 95% for me. I know it should be 100%, but comeon, nothing wrong with 5% being for her . I have to keep reminding myself though that if it doesn't work out that doesn't mean all my bad habits are going to come back to light because "well if it's not going to work out between us why am I doing all this?" That's definitely not the case. Hardest thing I definitely think is going to be to quit smoking. Scared of quitting for sure, have already quit a few times in the past and it's crazy hard, never seems to get easier.

On the eating front though which has always been an issue for me, if I make it through the day I will have consumed roughly half the calories I normally do (if not way less than half). And I'm still eating too, just much smaller portions and healtheir choices. I definitely know it may sound super unhealthy, but honestly I don't think I could manage having some sort of eating disorder (where I didn't eat enough) cuz I'm always hungry ha. Discipline, self preservation, self reliance, confidence, determination. I can do this.


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## movinonup

So yesterday went pretty much without any issues. Only sent her one text in the afternoon, just a short and simple text saying I hope she had a good day with the kids and to give them a hug from me. Nothing too crazy. Probably shouldn't have sent it, and she never replied, but I was okay with it. Part of me just wanted to make sure she wasn't thinking "oh well now he's just not contacting me at all and he's being a jerk again", but that was probably just me getting too far into my head and overthinking things. I know she needs space, and I need to give that to her. All I can do is to be friendly and nice at visits, and if she texts me ever or emails me to make sure I am friendly in my response. Which again, pretty cool feeling that I'm not "faking it" or anything like that, it's just a matter of not getting overzealous with my texts back and thinking "oh maybe there's something there".

Three days down though, no fights, no negativity, just positive thoughts and responses. Feeling good about it. Yesterday was a bit difficult because I got spoiled seeing her and the kids two days in a row, and then I definitely missed all of them yesterday, but I made it. Have to make sure (and been praying a lot about this) that I'm not going to turn into a "smotherer" as it seems super easy to do. Still haven't expressed my feelings towards her, just kept it general, letting her know the day before that I will not be negative and that I understand why she is waiting for it to get bad again, but I will not let it happen again. Time heals, and I need to be patient and give it time still. If it's meant to be, it will not come easy, it will not come quick, it will require will power and patience. All I can do is speak with my actions, so I've tried to keep it at that and not just my words. No excuses, no reassurances, just working on being the best version of me. Yes, hopefully she sees the person she fell in love with and that will spark something, but again, I have to keep reminding myself that even if that doesn't happen, I'll feel much better about myself, and my confidence will be at an all time high.

Smoking: Working on figuring out a regimen to quit, instead of going cold turkey, since I've tried and failed so many times before. Did a lot of research and found some really good advice. I want to make sure I'm absolutely ready to do it and not just doing it to make myself look better for my wife or stbxw. Ran out of my normal cigarettes this morning and instead of buying a carton, bought two packs of menthols, which I was never a fan of. Switching to those so I can help ween myself off, and planning on figuring out an official quit date today so I can have that taken care of. Also currently trying to figure out whether or not using the gum or a patch will help, as well as being recommended to get flavored toothpicks to chew on when I'm getting a craving and eating more carrots and celery for the "hand to mouth" habit. All in good time. Any advice from you TAMers out there with how to quit?

Eating: Ate a bit more than I intended yesterday but still kept it about 400 calories under what I used to consume (if not more), and it was all healthy meals. Planning on doing better today.

Exercise: Worked out (lifted) yesterday and it felt sooo good. Even had a tiny bit of fun with it, which was cool. Can't really afford to join a gym and I honestly can't stand going to gyms, but I think this will help alot.

Drinking: No drinks in two days. Feeling good about it. Really coming to realize that I actually don't drink by myself inside, it's always a good pairing with a cigarette. So when I get home, I want to have a good drink and a cigarette, which just seems more enjoyable. Now it's just turned into iced tea or water, which isn't as enjoyable ha, but it does the job, and gets me to drink more water ha.

Anyways, that's my update for now, and again, if anyone has any good quitting advice for smoking, let me know, I'd really appreciate it! Or any advice in general too ha, always appreciated.


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## Blossom Leigh

One book that fueled the next stage of recovery for my husband was Manhood Restored... fyi you are right at the stage he was when he picked up the book...


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## movinonup

Blossom Leigh said:


> One book that fueled the next stage of recovery for my husband was Manhood Restored... fyi you are right at the stage he was when he picked up the book...


I checked out the amazon reviews for that book, how would you say it helped your husband?

Also glad to hear I'm not alone. Pretty much re-read the 180 every day and I am definitely following all the steps, and it seems to be working good. Staying positive.


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## movinonup

Baby Steps.


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## Blossom Leigh

My husband truly has been an adolescent in a grown man's body... this book holds his feet to the fire on entering manhood full on, accepting that God given role and executing it with the love of Christ.

Therefore practically at home he has approached me with MUCH more humility, grace, compassion, respect, love, acceptance, understanding, seeks peace in our home, provides emotional and physical safety and as a result, since he has seen my intensely positive response he is willing to be more vulnerable, thus increasing intimacy.


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## movinonup

Blossom Leigh said:


> My husband truly has been an adolescent in a grown man's body... this book holds his feet to the fire on entering manhood full on, accepting that God given role and executing it with the love of Christ.
> 
> Therefore practically at home he has approached me with MUCH more humility, grace, compassion, respect, love, acceptance, understanding, seeks peace in our home, provides emotional and physical safety and as a result, since he has seen my intensely positive response he is willing to be more vulnerable, thus increasing intimacy.


Definitely good to know, thank you. You should try (both of you really, but primarily him) reading Wild at Heart. Really really good book that kind of talks about who we are as men and how we think, and that's the poorest synopsis I can give because it's been a long time ha, but yeah I would definitely recommend it. There's a women's version of the book too but can't for the life of me remember it. I know a lot of couples read them both together and I've heard it really helps.


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## Blossom Leigh

movinonup said:


> Definitely good to know, thank you. You should try (both of you really, but primarily him) reading Wild at Heart. Really really good book that kind of talks about who we are as men and how we think, and that's the poorest synopsis I can give because it's been a long time ha, but yeah I would definitely recommend it. There's a women's version of the book too but can't for the life of me remember it. I know a lot of couples read them both together and I've heard it really helps.


yep, read that one almost 15 years ago now... a stirring book.


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## movinonup

Blossom Leigh said:


> yep, read that one almost 15 years ago now... a stirring book.


Yeah I think I definitely need to read that again. I am always reading different threads in this forum, some good, some bad, but I also need to read more positive things that inspire the soul. Been making a good book list to start reading again, want to include things for myself but also things that will help me understand how to better understand my wife or just women in general ha. Should be interesting.

Was going to read the five love languages as well (she always wanted me to read that but I never did, good husband right?)


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## Blossom Leigh

Good spouses have their head up (attentive and not distracted) and heart in (treat her like a fine china, not a dog bowl).


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## movinonup

Blossom Leigh said:


> Good spouses have their head up (attentive and not distracted) and heart in (treat her like a fine china, not a dog bowl).


For sure. Feel like I see a tiny light of hope at the end of the tunnel when it comes to our marriage, but who knows. I can't count on it, but it's near impossible not to think about it all the time. 

Either way, glad for the changes I'm making in myself.


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## movinonup

Well last night was interesting. I can definitely tell she's seen a difference in how I've been acting towards her and instead of me dropping off the kids at a public place (transitioning at a public place) she offered to come get them at my place since I was keeping them late so she could do a school function. 

Long story short, she stayed for about three hours and we just talked. About everything. And it was really good. I was honestly surprised she stayed more than just a few minutes, and we kind of just talked about everything that has happened and stuff we couldn't agree on regarding logistics of the divorce and finances and stuff. It got a little tense a couple times but it was the first time we were able to talk about it in a civil manner (in addition to talking about things that had happened when it got really bad between us) and I was able to stay positive and not try to argue. I really am regretful of things that had happened both pre separation and post separation on my side, but I wasn't just a "doormat" about the whole thing, I admitted to my wrong doings and hurtful things I had said and we just talked. It was a great feeling. She even initiated a couple of hugs.

Now at the end of it all, she did tell me that (not in a spiteful way, just in an honest way) that she doesn't see us ever working out and she doesn't like me. I know that I've done and said a lot of hurtful things and I've owned up to them, and I told her I completely understood where she was coming from and why she felt that way. I made her feel like crap, I accused her of stuff, and it was all just so wrong. Again, I wasn't just sitting there while she pointed out all the things I've done wrong, it was actually an A & B conversation. And I'm truly thankful for it. I expressed that I hadn't given up on us, but also expressed that I knew full well that it was likely not to work. I told her I wouldn't be pursuing her, and I know she was worried that since she more or less told me it wasn't going to happen that I was going to go back to my old self this morning, wake up and send her nasty texts (this happened last time).

I told her that would not happen, and it has not. Sure I'm sad about it, but I completely expected her to feel that way, and am totally aware that she can not emotionally trust me. I have to keep reminding myself it's now only been four days of me being nice and not saying anything mean to her. However, last night was probably the longest, most honest, and best conversation we've had in months without it getting too tense and then turning into a fight.

Yeah I've had some negative thoughts this morning, because I know she's not at the place I'm at, but I know it will do nothing to take that out on her. I've already done that, and that's why we're where we are now. If nothing else, I've been thankful all morning that we were able to openly talk about stuff, and could see a possibility that at the end of all of this we could actually have more than just a civil co-parenting relationship, but knowing it would be less than any sort of romantic relationship. She specifically said that she did not have any romantic feelings for me, after everything that's happened, and I have to trust that.

Even after all of that, I still haven't given up, and I'm still going to continue forward on my path to bettering myself, and I know in the long run that will be best for everybody, me, her, and the kids. There's absolutely no reason it will ever have to get to that point again. I'm going to keep this up. I've also now gone three days without drinking and have eaten healthy those three days as well. Bought a scale last night (I've been too scared to buy one and then be disappointed with the result), and found out that in the last four or five months I've actually lost about 25 pounds. Made me feel good about myself.

I will admit, I'm sad, and still have that feeling in the pit of my stomach that won't go away, just to think it's crazy that we may never be together again, but at the same time I am thankful for the last week and what has transpired, and it has given me hope that at least I can still have a relationship with her, even if it's not romantic. I also can't expect things to change that quickly over four days of being nice to each other, but with everything that went down last night, and without worrying about any sort of goal of getting back together, progress is definitely being made. I even decided to see what I can do to help her more with finances since while talking I realized that her being at home with the kids and doing all the therapies with them (they all have had their developmental delays unfortunately), then going to school and working as much as she can, that she already has a full time job which is the kids. And they definitely can keep one busy. I want to help her finish school and help with finances any way I can. Before I was kind of annoyed that she started school again because that took away more time that she could have worked, "forcing" me into a place where I had to give more, but I'm looking at it from a different perspective now, and appreciate that she's there for the kids and knowing that if she got a job now, then she'd have to do daycare, and she'd never really be able to advance in the field that she's qualified for without a degree.

Anyways, that's my morning so far. How's everybody else doing?


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Time for a Change - Part Two*



movinonup said:


> Well last night was interesting. I can definitely tell she's seen a difference in how I've been acting towards her and instead of me dropping off the kids at a public place (transitioning at a public place) she offered to come get them at my place since I was keeping them late so she could do a school function.
> 
> Long story short, she stayed for about three hours and we just talked. About everything. And it was really good. I was honestly surprised she stayed more than just a few minutes, and we kind of just talked about everything that has happened and stuff we couldn't agree on regarding logistics of the divorce and finances and stuff. It got a little tense a couple times but it was the first time we were able to talk about it in a civil manner (in addition to talking about things that had happened when it got really bad between us) and I was able to stay positive and not try to argue. I really am regretful of things that had happened both pre separation and post separation on my side, but I wasn't just a "doormat" about the whole thing, I admitted to my wrong doings and hurtful things I had said and we just talked. It was a great feeling. She even initiated a couple of hugs.
> 
> Now at the end of it all, she did tell me that (not in a spiteful way, just in an honest way) that she doesn't see us ever working out and she doesn't like me. I know that I've done and said a lot of hurtful things and I've owned up to them, and I told her I completely understood where she was coming from and why she felt that way. I made her feel like crap, I accused her of stuff, and it was all just so wrong. Again, I wasn't just sitting there while she pointed out all the things I've done wrong, it was actually an A & B conversation. And I'm truly thankful for it. I expressed that I hadn't given up on us, but also expressed that I knew full well that it was likely not to work. I told her I wouldn't be pursuing her, and I know she was worried that since she more or less told me it wasn't going to happen that I was going to go back to my old self this morning, wake up and send her nasty texts (this happened last time).
> 
> I told her that would not happen, and it has not. Sure I'm sad about it, but I completely expected her to feel that way, and am totally aware that she can not emotionally trust me. I have to keep reminding myself it's now only been four days of me being nice and not saying anything mean to her. However, last night was probably the longest, most honest, and best conversation we've had in months without it getting too tense and then turning into a fight.
> 
> Yeah I've had some negative thoughts this morning, because I know she's not at the place I'm at, but I know it will do nothing to take that out on her. I've already done that, and that's why we're where we are now. If nothing else, I've been thankful all morning that we were able to openly talk about stuff, and could see a possibility that at the end of all of this we could actually have more than just a civil co-parenting relationship, but knowing it would be less than any sort of romantic relationship. She specifically said that she did not have any romantic feelings for me, after everything that's happened, and I have to trust that.
> 
> Even after all of that, I still haven't given up, and I'm still going to continue forward on my path to bettering myself, and I know in the long run that will be best for everybody, me, her, and the kids. There's absolutely no reason it will ever have to get to that point again. I'm going to keep this up. I've also now gone three days without drinking and have eaten healthy those three days as well. Bought a scale last night (I've been too scared to buy one and then be disappointed with the result), and found out that in the last four or five months I've actually lost about 25 pounds. Made me feel good about myself.
> 
> I will admit, I'm sad, and still have that feeling in the pit of my stomach that won't go away, just to think it's crazy that we may never be together again, but at the same time I am thankful for the last week and what has transpired, and it has given me hope that at least I can still have a relationship with her, even if it's not romantic. I also can't expect things to change that quickly over four days of being nice to each other, but with everything that went down last night, and without worrying about any sort of goal of getting back together, progress is definitely being made. I even decided to see what I can do to help her more with finances since while talking I realized that her being at home with the kids and doing all the therapies with them (they all have had their developmental delays unfortunately), then going to school and working as much as she can, that she already has a full time job which is the kids. And they definitely can keep one busy. I want to help her finish school and help with finances any way I can. Before I was kind of annoyed that she started school again because that took away more time that she could have worked, "forcing" me into a place where I had to give more, but I'm looking at it from a different perspective now, and appreciate that she's there for the kids and knowing that if she got a job now, then she'd have to do daycare, and she'd never really be able to advance in the field that she's qualified for without a degree.
> 
> Anyways, that's my morning so far. How's everybody else doing?


I did not read your initial thread but you're mentality and approach are spot on.

I have also had to quit several things throughout my life because they owned me by my choices: drugs, alcohol, cigarettes and porn. It took me three times to quit smoking after 10 years of use. What finally worked for me was telling myself "NO". 

My internal dialog up would be something like this:

Man! Day 3 without a smoke! I sure could use one. I bet Scott would let me bum one.

NO

I could buy a pack, make it last two weeks, and then quit.

NO

Boy, a smoke would go great with this beer. 

NO

You get the picture. And eventually, the undermining voice just wasn't as loud anymore.

As for your wife... Man, she sounded very clear in her communication to you. She sounds done. I suppose anything can happen, but as you said, continue to make yourself the best "you" possible to prep for any outcome. 

Just whatever you do, should some sort of finality occur that spells the end with her, do not go back to your unhealthy vices. It took me another year before quitting smoking when I got "that" phone call. 

I wish you the best, brother.


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