# I have 30 days to make this work! Separated...



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I asked my husband to leave last Tuesday.....I have another thread that explains more of our details...ongoing problems for years....I have said many times he should leave...this time he did.

He told me in October he wanted a divorce, but never left. This led to me nagging and constantly wanting to talk about the relationship. (During the last 4 months I do believe he was actually making small efforts to make things work - I ignoredthem).

Finally last week he told me a couple of things that made me feel like a heal. I went to my first counseling session last monday which was eye opening....but on Tuesday I was all over him like usual....he said a few things I was not prepared for and I told him to get out...he left the next morning and said he would be home over the weekend to get more stuff...

He came home saturday morning and just left sunday night (he spent most of the time with our daughter - but we had some good friendly conversation ourselves)....

I was happy go lucky most of the weekend until I realized he was leaving....we had not disussed this separation so I was clueless...he came upstairs and asked why the sudden change in attitude...I said because he is leaving...he said YOU KICKED ME OUT...and you did it a lot the last few years....

I proceeded to apologize for MY part in the failure of the marriage. Basically - he cheated on me 10 years ago...and long story short - I thought I forgave him but I clearly never did. I had a wall up - I became a *****, our sex life sucked because I did not want to make him happy, I was miserable to be with.

This came to me after the counselor on Monday, a male friend on Tuesday and a divorce counselor on Thursday all said - you hhave NOT FORGIVEN the man and have spent 10 years making him feel like **** for something he probably already feels like **** for.

He has told me he does not love me anymore and wishes he just left 10 years ago.....

But tonite he REALLY listened to me when I told him I was sorry and that I do lvoe him, and I do not think he is the horrible person I probably made him feel like. 

We have been together for 20 years by the way....I love him more than anything. 

After I was done talking he did actually hug me which shocked me because I know how angry he is.

He said he wsa in a motel last week, but did rent a room with a coworker for 30 days.....and he already paid for it....but he thought we should take the 30 days anyway....he will come by on the weekends to see our daughter....and he said in a few weeks we can try to go out on a date or two if all goes well....

I AM ON THE ROAD to forgiveness...I already feel that wieight lifted......he of course is not convinced.....

I am still doing the 180 to a point since I do not want him to think I am a snilveling mess....and I want him to see I WILL be OK without him, but also want him to know I do not want to be without him.

I respected his choice to leave tonight, did not beg him to stay or anything and let him go. 

I am not sure what to do from here....how can I show him I DO FINALLY FORGIVE HIM and do think the world of him if I do not talk or see him? 

I am thrilled he said lets see what happens since he swore up and down there was nothing left....but this was before last week...

.....I do not regret asking him t leave...because if I did not I would not have spoke to the 3 people who have made me realize what a ***** I have been and how I have been reading him so wrong or not at all....but I WANT HIM BACK and to make it better than ever...

How do I do this........


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm not exactly sure, but keeping with therapy is a start. Is it possible to see your counselor more than once a week? Many request that in the early stages just to flesh things out. 

Work on you. That's all you can do.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Forgiving after you have been cheated on takes a lot of work. Good that you see the need. Don't be too hard on yourself that it is difficult. And as you now know, you have to do it if you want the marriage to work!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you read the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. I know that the affair was a long time ago. But I think it would help you now to know what to do.

Then after you read that book, read the books linked to in my signature block below for building a passionate marriage.



.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks guys! I did not read the surviving an affair book - I guess i never really looked inside to see the hurt and anger I was still feeling so never thought I needed any help until last week.

I did read last week men are from mars, divorce busting and how to be married to a difficult man (he is difficult, he admits it) - and those helped me tremendously.

I have heard a ton about the his needs her needs and want to go today to get that one....

I have 2 more counseling sessions this week....one is to deal with ME and myself....the other is strictly for the marriage.....

My 2 concerns are that he is still not getting help for his issues - and he does have them....

And how can I show him I am different if we are not together....he will think it is all an act if I only see him a few hours a week...

And do I still not call text or email him.....even though we just had an "OK' weekend.....

He really seemed sad to leave yesterday, and I am still shocked he hugged me so I just wish I knew what he was thinking/feeling.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

This might be dumb, but just tell him. Tell him and then back your words up with actions. But get all the secrets and awkward topics out f the way.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I did tell him last night. I clearly stated how sorry I was that I broguht this damn affair up OVER AND OVER AND OVER for 10 years - in turn making him feel like **** EVERY TIME. 

I apologized for the wall I PUT UP which in turn caused him to put his wall up - no, he has not been perfect - but my inability to forgive and move on is what killed this. I have been miserable to live with.....not fun and carefree but brooding and angry....even my daughter finally told me this...she is 10.

I told him I love him, I told him that I do think he is a better man than he has ever been and that I am proud of him. I reassured him that although my actions and words may have told him soemthing different - that I am proud to call him my husband....and that I do not want him to ever think I do not think the world of him.

And I think he heard me.....that is when he hugged me......

I know the next 30 days are the right thing......I just hope he can break his wall down to let me back in......that is my biggest fear - that he will not trust me to be a better wife, the person I used to be.

I have said in the past I would stop the heavy talks and nagging...but I never did.....I KNOW I CAN know because the counselor has helped me see what I could not see on my own....


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## rickster (Jan 14, 2013)

Its not so bad being single. Let him go, enjoy yourself, and find the one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My advice... Don't worry about the "30 days" thing. Work on yourself. Let him see that you're serious about changing. Go on your dates with him. Then, when his room rental thing is done, he can decide what to do next. It might be to move back home, it might be to start a divorce, or it might be to rent the room for another 30 days. No matter what, none of these things involve the immediate end of your marriage after 30 days are up.

C


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Don't mean to threadjack, but I can't stop reading your user name as working-a-tit. LOL


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

rickster - that is horrible advice - not sure why you would even say that. I have no problem being single, that is NOT what I want - and clearly he is not 100% sure either. What he wants is his fun easy going wife back.....

PBear - thanks.....I know I am overthinking things and need to just play it out - even the therapist said my type A personality is killing me.....and making me too uptight.....I am trying to step back....but it is hard...

....and Thoreau --- proof that men and women see things SOOOO differently!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ....and Thoreau --- proof that men and women see things SOOOO differently!


Actually, just proves that Thoreau has a dirty mind!


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Do not key on the 30 day rental period. Do not have calendar timetable or deadline - that puts way too much pressure on both of you. 

Look at it this way - it might take more than 30 days, or it might take less. Don't pressure yourselves - because you have enough pressure just trying to re-connect with each other. If he feels pressured for time he might push back. If you feel pressured for time you might do something that appears desperate.

For the rent money - look at it as a sunk cost. Do not go by the rental timetable - even if he moves back halfway through a rental period it doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Actually, just proves that Thoreau has a dirty mind!


Wazza you say that like its a bad thing! I am currently separated....I cannot even begin to tell you how dirty my mind is at the moment.... 

Cedarman, thank you - I am trying not to worry about the time frame....I was honestly shocked he even kind of gave one...I think he really needed this time as much as I did....I do not regret asking him to leave, because if I did not I would not have picked up the books, went to the therapist and really realized how miserable I have been - and it was more because of my internal issues than necessarily him....although it was him that caused that internal stress --- how I handled and dealt with it is all on me...

He was here last night since he went to our daughters conference at school...so he stayed until about 8pm, the 3 of us were on the couch watching the Simpsons...first time the 3 of us have been on the same couch watching TV in I do not know how long....

We talked and laughed and it was nice, but that big elephant in the room is killing us....I want that comfort level back that we had years ago....I know it will not happen overnight...but I HATE THIS.....

Patience is not my better quality....


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Your taking steps to repair...keep it mellow...stay calm and in stride...don't control stuff...let him make some big boy decisions...not every encounter has to be heavy conversation...some things can be kept light. Don't sweat the small stuff...keep a slight po light 180 going for yourself for self preservation...make personal choices about you...self improvements....be attractive...someone he wants to be around...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am DEFINITELY not having any heavy conversation - that is what pushed him away in the first place. There is honestly nothing for us to talk about....I need to find forgiveness. That is really all this is about - me tearing my wall down - and hopefully now getting him to. 10 years of wall building is a tough one....

....and I am doing for me.....I am still going on the premise that this is over and trying to keep my life going...I am trying to not read to much into anything anymore....but I love this man with all my heart....and I know he says he is not in love iwth me anymore.....but some of his recent actions really make me feel differently....(just wish I had seen and realized those actions were his attempts at trying sooner!)...

He is mad I asked him to leave....he is mad I never forgave him for something he did 10 YEARS AGO....he is mad that he has told me things and I did not listen, but someone else would tell me the same and I would "get it" ----- 

I know I cannot control his feelings - and am doing everything I can to fix my issues wiht not letting things go.....

I just wish he would be more open with me ....... it is hard to know how to be without him telling me where he is.

I like that we can have lite conversation, that he looks at me when we talk....that he agreed to go to a wedding iwth me in 2 weeks that I thought we had no chance of going to together......these are all I hope good things.....

But then I think I am reading too much into things....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

The guy still loves you, or he wouldn't give you the time of day - much less agree to go to a wedding with you. 

You couldn't make me attend a wedding right now at gunpoint, lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL! Thanks old timer. Not for nothing, I think he is only talking to me at all because of our daughter....and the wedding is actually one of his childhood friends....so I am not convinced it is because of any feelings he has for me unfortunately....

But as my counselor said I need to start seeing these little things as positive signs.....just hard to do since I just want him home...


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Be patient. And consistent. 
Your actions speak louder than any words you can ever say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Consistent I can do.....patience is asking a lot.

I swore I would do no contact the rest of the week (although that terrifies me+....and it is KILLING me..... :-(

And I asked him to leave......and now I feel like a schmuck. Although I know it was the right thing since I have done SO MUCH self learning.....but it hurts horribly.....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

A little short text every now and then wouldn't hurt.

"Thinking about you" says a lot and goes a long way. 

Just don't overdo it. Less is more sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks old timer.....I am so afraid of doing anything right now....he said lets give it 30 days and see what happens since he got the room for that long....and that gives me a glimmer of hope....but he has also said he does not love me, nothing in common blah blah blah...so I am afraid of putting my heart out there or make the first move for the fear of him giving me the final "we are done" - which I do not want to hear.....

There has only been one day of completely no contact so far by me...so I figured this might be the best thing to do for now.....

Or at least that is what every book says! I would love nothing more than to text a hey - thinking of you text.....but scared he will take it wrong.....

uugghhhhhh


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> but he has also said he does not love me, nothing in common blah blah blah...


Have you ever said something in anger you didn't really mean?

I think we all have.

It's only human to lash out after being hurt. 

Don't set a "time limit" - this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Stay the course and take this time to work on yourself.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Have you ever said something in anger you didn't really mean?


No NEVER! 

Does not hurt any less though or make me question what he is really thinking or feeling.

I am working on myself...I just got back from my counselor who is doing WONDERS pulling crap out of me that I did not know was still affecting me (childhood crap I thought I was over). I also have a weekly call with a marriage counselor who is helping me deal with just the marriage stuff.....

I feel good about ME.....I just want to feel good about US.

I know I will be OK either way....I just think there is still something there on both sides and hate throwing it away....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I hope you are right zappy --- hope you are right......unfortunately he is not here to see the changes.... :-(

He does need to address some of his own too though. The counselor made it clear he has some things himself he should work on before we can have a successful marriage...and unfortantely I am not sure he will take his own steps....but we shall see.....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

He doesn't have to be there. 

Actually the changes would probably be more noticeable w less exposure, IMO. 
ie. every week or so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thankfully he will come by on the weekends to see our daughter....so I have that bit of time..

..and I am really laying back now....no more calls or texts to him....I think that in itself will help since part of my issue is always wanting to "know answers"...I have always been too in his face with dealing with our problems....never giving us enough room to breathe....so I think giving him this room will help in showing him it WILL be different if he gives this a chance.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I had to call him this morning.....about our daughter...and he did not answer - thought he was ignoring me. 

Thankfully he wasnt he just stepped away from his desk (see how separation makes you think the WORST!)...

We talked for a few minutes about the situation...I let HIM lead the conversation about how we will fix it.....I shut up --- (part of our issue has always been me being a Type A control freak)....so he has a plan and we will work on fixing that issue...

No mention of relationship or anything - nothing heavy at all...we talked about work for a minute or 2 and he said Have a Good Day first.....then I said it and we hung up....

I am trying to not read too much into it - but it did feel good to hear his voice. 

Cannot wait to see him Saturday (he won't spend time with me - but at least its a chance for him to see how peaceful the house will be if he will come home!).....

I really want to send an email to him about what I hope we can accomplish by him coming home.....but I am guessing anything relationship heavy at this point would be a horrible idea right?!?!?!


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## gulfwarvet (Jan 7, 2013)

I say give him his space ,don't appear needy, and act like everything is just fine.The intuitive thing to do is beg them to comeback,plead, smother them,and appear needy.Be counter intuitive if they call say -its really nice to hear from you but I'm busy right now maybe we can talk later-don't be too available..People want what they can't have -it will cause him to think.I've been told texting during this period is not the thing to do you want real interaction.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am trying to give as much space as needed....and we have had some minor text contact - which I HATE......that is why I was thrilled to have a call this morning.....I am not chasing, I have not asked him to come home....but hate that he does not know what I am learning with counseling.....and I have this overwhelming urge to email him and tell him.....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

That would only be words, not actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Great point old timer. And I know my words have not meant much in the past.....that was EXACTLY what I needed to hear.....


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## gulfwarvet (Jan 7, 2013)

Play you cards right -if you get down to the end of this 30 days and you have a face to face talk use what your thinking of now then is what I would do.This whole relationship thing reminds me of poker- Kenny Rogers "The Gambler" You've gotta know when to hold them,know when to fold them,know when to walk away and when to run.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I read through your threads last night. They spoke to me for some reason and I feel the need to make my first post. I am an H in a 20 year marriage. I have lived through some of what you are going through but from the opposite side. We have been through children, infidelity, pain, anger, hurt, walls, separation, counseling, the whole gambit it seems. We have hurt each other so much over the years. All that said, we are still together, we still have our days, but I can honestly say I have never loved her more than I do today and I don't ever want to hurt her again. I hope I can say that tomorrow and the next day. 

You are doing great going to counseling for yourself. Keep it up. It is eye opening and the self reflection required will serve you well now and in the future, even if this marriage ends.

Just from your two posts, there are so many things going on in your marriage that need work. My impression of your husband from what you wrote is that he is a decent man, but flawed like all the rest of us. He sounds like a decent provider, a good father and ordinarily a pretty responsible guy. He, as you have pretty clearly spelled out, is an avoider. That kind of man is going to have very difficult and volatile relationships with women. In my experience, for women to get any resolution to conflicts and disagreements, they have to be heard, the issues discussed openly and dealt with. Without it there can be no clarity, no understanding, no remorse, no forgiveness, and no closure. You guys should have gone into counseling immediately after the affair nine years ago. He didn't give you the opportunity to clear the air, to answer your questions about the affair, to deal with what made him vulnerable to it in the first place, and to allow you to forgive and move forward together. By not discussing it openly your wounds were left open, day after day, year after year. The wound stayed fresh and never had the opportunity to heal. IMO it is now probably too late to really get into it too much, but if you guys make it through this separation phase still together, and you still feel like you need to close that book try and do it in counseling together and do it as quickly as possible. You guys have lived and relived it for so much longer than most people and a lot longer than it should have ever taken. I suspect that he refused to discuss it because of the shame he felt. If that is true, it says a lot about your husband and about how much he loved you. 

By your own admission you emotionally withdrew from him 9 years ago and all your anger, nagging, berating has worn him down over the years. My W and I call it the emotional divorce, we have been through it twice and it is a marriage killer. We won't survive another one. Just fyi, if a woman doesn't show affection, support or kindness to her man over a long period of time a man will start to think he isn't wanted or loved. Not only have you not given him what he needs to be happy in a marriage for 9 years, but you asked him how soon are you leaving when he suggested that you guys divorce. Your actions over the past several months have flipped the light off in his heart, have caused him to give up and given him the strength to walk out. Asking him numerous times over the past several months "when are you leaving" I think confirmed for him that you don't want him and don't love him. No decent man with any self respect is going to stay with a woman that doesn't want him around. It is extremely painful to wake up next to a woman you love day after day and have her confirm (by nagging, arguing, berating, apathy, etc. etc.) that she doesn't really give 2 $hits about you. The fact he stayed in this situation for 9 years is pretty impressive. I don't know many men that would do that. Doing that for your daughter might be part of it, but not all of it. There may be something else there that gives me some hope that you two might still have a chance.

When you guys sat on the couch watching tv the other day, you missed a golden opportunity to show him how you truly feel about him. If you guys get a chance to do it again, cuddle up to him, give him a kiss, hold his hand...something small but significant. Small gestures can go a long way to breaking down a man's barriers. He is still going to have his guard up at teh beginning and will question your motives and sincerity. But then again, he might like it. Keep in mind, you kicked him out and he doesn't trust you any more. He may be slow to come around. 

I have read the 180 everyone talks about on this site, and I am not sure your situation calls for it. This separation was not a spur of the moment, in the heat of battle kind of deal. You in not so many words told him over a period of several months that you don't love him any more, don't want him and kicked him out. He finally said OK and left. It seems to me it is time you tell him how you really feel. A week is long enough. Being separated is not going to help and the longer you guys are separated, the less likely the marriage will survive. 

I am just going to throw this out there, but by all accounts your husband is a good father and probably misses being with his daughter every day. If you really want to get him home tell him she wants him to come home and so do you. If that doesn't get him to bite, tell him you don't want to fight any more and that you are in counseling. It has been a game changer for you and that you realize you are just as much responsible as he is for the marriage being in the situation it is in. Men like it when women take ownership. We have to do it every day out in the business world. Tell him you are ready to work as hard as is humanly possible to fix you and that you have already started. Tell him you aren't ready to give up if he is willing to meet you half way. If he says ok, do your arguing and problem solving in counseling, detach and then focus on each other and the good things about each other after you leave the counselor's office. Do date nights, go see a movie and hold hands, give him a card. Be kind to him. You aren't weak for doing these things, he already knows you can live without him otherwise you wouldn't have asked him to leave. You already know that you are going to have to forgive him and it sounds like you are ready.

Keep in mind, that you guys aren't likely to get this done by yourselves. He needs counseling for his avoidance issues. Nothing ever gets resolved by avoidance and it will eventually destroy every romantic relationship he has, be it with you or some other woman in the future. Self awareness isn't a strength for him, so if he hasn't realized this yet you need to say it nicely to him when you feel you have his undivided attention. He absolutely has to work on that. He will never be happy with himself or his life if he doesn't.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

TRON!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, he is a good man, a good provider, a FANTASTIC FATHER - but not the best husband and a crappy communicator.

Ye,s he told me in October he wanted a divorce - I made it clear I did not and I wanted to work on things he said he was not in love with me and we had nothing in common. I figured we were done. He never left and the pressure was too much for me. We were not resolving anything but yet getting along, but in the back of my mind he wanted a divorce, so leave. He did. He said he wanted to for a while, it was the first time he had the guts.

I have done intensive counseling the last 2 weeks and have realized just how horrible I have been.....when he was here SUnday, I did ask him to stay - he said lets take the 30 days and see what happens. 

He is afraid - he does not think I can change that quickly, although I have. I have had several massive emotional breakthroughs with these counselors and feel like a new person....but he cannot see that since he is not here.

The sitting on the couch - honestly I am afraid to reach out for the fear of rejection. The night before he did hug me - something he did not do for a long time....but I did not want to push my luck the next night...we did ask him to stay Monday night...he said no.....and I know it was hard for him to go b/c it was a nice night...

I have told him that I take most of the responsibility for the demise of this marriage.....problem is he DOES need counseling as well...but I do not think he will ever go....

And you hit the nail on the head...he is not happy with himself...I do not think he ever has been or ever will be....and my tearing him down even more has not helped. He has a lot of guilt for how he has treated other girlfriends, his dad and others who have loved him.....he needs to figure out why he hurts those he loves...and who love him...

We did some casual texting today....a few back and forths about work...which was nice...but I am trying to not read to much into it...

I am holding out hope....expecting the worst but hoping for the best....I am trying to go on like we are divorcing...but I will not stop letting him know I love him......

I just do not want to push him away....and wish I had a clue where his head his....

He is INCREDIBLY close with our daughter.....so I am amazed he is not coming home knowing I already promised to back off when he is here.....so that is what has me so concerned.....

your post was AWESOME...and gave me a little bit of hope for us.....I do not think he dislikes me enough to really want a divorce.....but I do think he distrusts what I will be like going forward...and I cannot blame him.....

This is so hard...and I miss him so much......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

There is no doubt that for some of us counseling can get you headed in a different direction (permanently) in very short amount of time. It did for me. Not my W. She moves slowly and sometimes with her it's 1 step forward and 2 steps back. Very frustrating for me because I am a hard pusher, get it done, make it happen kind of person. She is more circumspect and guarded. 

As far as the H, the hug is good but may or may not mean much. Do you think he felt anything emotionally? 

Do you think he might be doing this separation to teach you a lesson or do you think he is really trying to detach from you? 

Does he seem sad when he comes home or mostly just business like and focused/engaged with your daughter? 

I know this is hard, but this may not be a good time to let your fear of rejection or failure control how you approach him. You may no longer have that luxury. There really may not be a tomorrow for you guys. Sometimes you just have to lay it all out there, open up, do your best and let the chips fall where they may. You can take pride in the fact that you tried your best, risked everything and failed. And, I am not saying you should grovel and beg, but on the other hand, there is always manipulation...is he still attracted to you physically? Would he turn down his favorite home cooked meal from you? 

It is pretty obvious that eventually you are going to have to show him the changes you've made, prove it to him or figuratively beat him over the head with it and spell it out for him. Keep in mind there is a good chance your going to relapse back to your old habits every so often. You have to be watchful for it and as soon as you recognize it, you have to tell him you recognize it and apologize to him. The apology is key, because it shows that you know what you are doing and that the effort to change is there! Maybe when he sees that you are making the positive changes that you have needed to make he will be more willing to do what he needs to do. 

Just curious, do you think your husband suffers from depression?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

YES! I have thought he has been slightly depressed for the 21 years I have known him. Even his dady said as a kid he would walk around with a puss on. He did not have the easiest childhood...he had the best parents, but difficult circumstances. I truly do not think he ever has felt true happiness --- even with our daughter, he is the best father i could ask for, and I know he would give the world for her....but there is still something "missing" so to speak.

He has never denied it when I say it --- but says he does not need help.

I knew even when we were dating he would be complicated to love, but his good qualities outwiegh these things.. He has gotten better over the years, but he is still not truly happy. Lately he does not even do anything....spends too much time around the house and on the couch.....that is not the man I dated or married....

I mentioned th hug only because to me it said volumes....he has not REACHED OUT to hug me in ages.....it was a big deal. It was after I told him all the stuff I was learning and counseling and how horrible I felt for making him feel like crap for so long....I do think he was touched emotionally that night.....or he would haev never reached out....and instead of saying he wanted a divorce like he did in October he said lets see how the next 30 days goes....

Today we did some light friendly texting...and even tonite the 3 of us were on speaker phone talking...he and I spoke one on one for a few minutes about our day.....it was nice....

My fear of rejection lies in that sometimes when I reach out for a hug or a kiss I can tell he does not want it (this was before I asked him to leave)......that is what makes that hug so special.....

You sound like me...I am a fixer and like a finality to things...he can let them go forever.....it is something the counselor i need to work on because it carries into everything in my life and it is not helathy...so it is a change I am trying to make...to just go with the flo and be happy for TODAY.....

...and he was touching me and making sexual inuendos as recently as a few weeks ago so I do think the physical attraction is still there.....just not the emotional...but our sex life has been lacking because of the walls...it hs been too mechanical for us both....

I wish I knew the answer about the separation.....I know he has been unhappy for a while...so I am sure he needed this time as much as me...in the past I would have said yes, maybe he is trying to punish me --- but I think he is better than that now....in some ways he has really grown into a better man and i do not think he is that hildish....

I think there are a lot of things he is thinking about that do not even have to do with us....which clearly I cannot do anything about....

Tomorrow I am going no contact...we had a bit today and it was good...want to leave it like that until we see each other on Saturday. I have plans to go out Saturday night....so it will be good for him to see me out an dabout.....but of course I woudl rather be on teh couch with him.....

ANd I totally get what you are saying about the rejection thing....but my heart cannot handle much more right now.....this is where my problem is.....I am just thankful for today....good conversation, couple of fun texts.....no rejection.....

I will see what happens saturday....I imagine myself giving him a quick hug and peck on the cheek when he walks in the door....but am terrified he will push me away.....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Nothing ventured, nothing gained


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Old timer has it right. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

I honestly don't know a man who wouldn't love for his wife to jump into his arms and give him a wink, a smile, and a big wet one when he walked in the front door from work. And then if she shakes her butt on the way to the kitchen to get him a drink, wow, that is the kind of stuff that puts us on Cloud 9 and makes us want to come home every night. 

Unless he has totally checked out or thinks you are totally faking it, what you are worried about just doesn't compute.

I get that you have been rejected by him in the past. I believe that is a direct function of how you have treated him over the years. For example, if you made him feel like crap one minute and five minutes later tried make up sex, that to me comes off as insincere and is going to be summarily rejected. That isn't where you guys are right now. You have been apart for a little over a week. You miss him. He may miss you too. Touch him every opportunity you get.

Just remember, if he doesnt just give in and come home you are going to have to try to break his resolve sometime over the next couple of weeks. Look good. Smell good. Be confident or at least act confident. Don't beg. Don't be whiny or b itchy. Pout, flirt, whatever women do to get a man interested. The best mind blowing passionate sex he has had in 20 years might need to be on the menu. Most men are really pretty simple. Give him something else to think about.

That wedding might be an opportunity.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron I so see counseling in your future....and old timer your one liners are perfect!

You are right about the pushing away timing..it is usually a day after a big fight or something....and the last time I tried to instigate sex it was awkward to say the least.....the comfort level is not there for either of us right now....

I am VERY much looking forward to the wedding....at the least I know we are going to have a great time.....at the most I hope it will reall help him see we can still have fun together...I think it is great to start out with a group like this for our first time out...

I has asked on Sunday when he said lets see what the next 30 days brings...about possible going on a date or two - he was a little apprehensive and said lets see in a couple of weeks...

So this is one and i hope we can do 1 more alone and see how it goes.....

I know how simple men are.....and truly we have not fought about anything NEW in a long time...its all old crap....assurance that I really have nothing to get on him for....so going forward I know our home will be peaceful....and believe me I want sex more than you know...and I want it like it USED to be before the damn walls went up....not sure I will have the guts to try this weekend.....but I will definitely do a hug and kiss on the cheek.....and if he makes one move on me at all....game on. 

Soo here is a question then....he will be here tomorrow...not sure if he is staying for the night or not, last weekend he slept over on Saturday - but sunday night he said he should not have...

I do have plans to make myself scarce.....errands during the day and a girls night at night....

As a guy and knowing kind of what is going on....would most want me to go so you can have that alone time with the kid - or do I try to squeeze a few hours of hanging around the house?!?! 

I do not want him to resent me for not giving them time alone....but I do not want him to think I do not want to be with them...

Last week I had asked him to go to dinner with my duaghter and I and he said no thanks....that hurt......and he did not ask me to do anything with them....

.....so wondering if me going away is better - or will make him feel like I just do not give a crap.....

I think we are on such a delicate line right now....

He does answer my calls and actually talks...even questions that could have a one word answer usually result in a good answer...same with texts....he could respond yes or no, but he does write more.....

...but not sure what is just being nice versus him keeping the door open for reconciliation.....


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## rickster (Jan 14, 2013)

Give him space, he'll come round. Hes a lucky guy to have a wife like you, if mines was half as attentive as you seem, we'd still be together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Rick....I think overall he is a lucky guy - he hurt me a lot...and I feel horrible that I let it go on this long....he is a hard guy to love, but I do get him and I love him with all my heart. I know I will be OK without him - but I would rather be wonderful with him....but I also need to know that he DOES appreciate me - this is a whole other issue....

....although counseling has helped me learn to see HIS way of showing appreciate may not coincide with my expectations - that was a breakthrough for me....and I think a BIG problem in ALLLLLL marraiges!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I shot a quick "Morning have a great day" text just to let him know I am thinking of him...

Nothing back... :-(

ETA: 45 minutes later but I finally got a "YOU TOO"! 

Maybe a glimmer of hope? 

Looks like Old Timer you were right...nothing ventured nothing gained....

....and now nothing more today - he knows I am thinking of him and I will now go away......

Thank you everyone for helping me get through this....hopefully someday I can share this thread with him and maybe he will really understand how much I do love him - even if my actions have shown him differently the last few years.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

_I would have been very surprised if you had not gotten a response from your text this morning. He cares about you or he wouldn't have stuck around so long.

In answer to your other questions, here you go:_

Soo here is a question then....he will be here tomorrow...not sure if he is staying for the night or not, last weekend he slept over on Saturday - but sunday night he said he should not have... _This is not surprising and don't take it personally. He is trying this alone thing on for size to see how he likes it. You need to understand that for an avoider, this is going to be appealing because by living alone he isn't going to have to deal with conflict when he comes home. He said he shouldn't have stayed not to hurt you, but because by staying he interrupted his plan. He created confusion in his mind by staying the night and messed up his plan. That is all. Also keep in mind that a little confusion is good for you and you want to create it. If he doesn't just come home on his own you are going to need to give him reasons to want to come home. It needs to be a place where he can feel peace and comfort. It hasn't been that place for a long time and you don't have much good history in the bank to rely on. You are going to have to create some. _


I do have plans to make myself scarce.....errands during the day and a girls night at night....

As a guy and knowing kind of what is going on....would most want me to go so you can have that alone time with the kid - or do I try to squeeze a few hours of hanging around the house?!?! _I can't answer that for you because I don't know your H. But, I don't see the harm in staying around for a little while. Touch him, get him a glass of water, any little thing to make him feel wanted and appreciated. Give him something to think about and then leave the room. On your way out that night, tell him you love him and that you wish he was the one you are going out with, instead of the girls and then go. Don't smother him. Give him some space. It really is a delicate balance. _ 

I do not want him to resent me for not giving them time alone....but I do not want him to think I do not want to be with them..._He won't unless you try to smother him. _

Last week I had asked him to go to dinner with my duaghter and I and he said no thanks....that hurt......and he did not ask me to do anything with them... _Like I said before. It is hard not to take it personally, but try not to. He has a plan to try and figure this thing out for himself and that would mess up his plan._ 

.....so wondering if me going away is better - or will make him feel like I just do not give a crap..._By hanging around a little bit, doing little things that say you care. He will know you give a crap._



...but not sure what is just being nice versus him keeping the door open for reconciliation... _ The changes in your relationship with him have to start somewhere. Being nice, being kind, being attentive with each other is a good place to start for both of you regardless of where this ends. If it doesn't lead to reconciliation then at least you are finally showing something positive to your daughter and being good role models for her on how to treat each other. You guys are bound together through her no matter what you do._


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron you are awesome! Thank you! You honestly seem to "get" my husband without even knowing him and I do think your suggestions are spot on!

And your first paragraph about him finding being alone "appealing" is what terrifies me. I have been on his case for so long, I know the night time quiet is something he is enjoying. And I am deathly afraid that that is the one thing that will keep him from coming home.....I have done years of hurt...and I am not convinced he is patient enough to see I am committed to being different....

Last weekend was good and Monday night was good...and I will make sure we have a great weekend this weekend...well going forward it will ALL be good....just hope he believes it is not just to get him back, but that counseling is working... 

Your thoughts on "his own plan" make sense, and I did not really think of things that way....I do tend to take things way too personally, and I know i need to stop.

I want him to do what i right for him....I want him happy - whether with me or without.....I know this space was needed for both of us......

Your advice has been invaluable.....I cannot thank you enough for taking the time!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Tron you are awesome! Thank you! You honestly seem to "get" my husband without even knowing him and I do think your suggestions are spot on!
> 
> Your advice has been invaluable.....I cannot thank you enough for taking the time!


As an avoidant, passive-agressive personality myself (at least w/ those I deeply care about), I think Tron has definitely given you some good suggestions.

Just bear in mind that it will likely take more than 30 days to convince your H that your changes are permanent. Your M didn't get to this point in 30 days - you can't expect to fix it in 30 days. This is a marathon - not a sprint.

Be patient, understanding and (subtly) persistent.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

old timer said:


> As an avoidant, passive-agressive personality myself (at least w/ those I deeply care about), I think Tron has definitely given you some good suggestions.
> 
> Just bear in mind that it will likely take more than 30 days to convince your H that your changes are permanent. Your M didn't get to this point in 30 days - you can't expect to fix it in 30 days. This is a marathon - not a sprint.
> 
> Be patient, understanding and (subtly) persistent.


Taking more than thirty days is not a bad thing. All you need in 30 days is the decision that it is worth investing another 30, and another, and so on.

The only bit of Tron's advice I would flag caution on, just based on how I personally react, is that I would be wary of being sexually aggressive. Willing, yes, if you are comfortable, but so many women seek to manipulate through sex, it's hard not to be a little suspicious.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks old timer! I am trying to be realistic with my expectations....I do have the fact that he is renting a room (and we are not exactly rich) and he misses my daughter on my side......and hopefully he will remember why I got this way in the first place and put aside his fears of trust with me a little quicker...I was not like this before he cheated.....

...I will remain patient, loving and forgiving.....and more importantly FUN.....if these are not enough to have him give us another chance, then I know it was not meant to be....and I will be OK with that....I think my breakdown period has passed.....my heart still hurts and my head is still on overdrive....but I have not cried in a few days....so healing is starting.....although when he is here tomorrow I will just want to jump his bones and make it all better -- but clearly self restraint is required here!!!

I actually just started reading your story....and need to finish it tonite after work....but wow, you have been through a LOT! I cannot believe how well you have handled it all.....I still have about half of your thread to get through....but what a roller coaster...makes my mess seem easy.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza --- my husband would feel the same way, I will do gentle flirting...but in no way suggest sex or come on strong.....I would not use that as a tool or for manipulation.....but if he asks....I sure as hell am not turning him down.....(yeah I been turning him down a lot - not the next time though - and I hope there is a next time!).....as soon as the forgiveness starting coming into play...oddly I wanted him a WHOLE LOT MORE!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Originally Posted by oldtimer 

"Just bear in mind that it will likely take more than 30 days to convince your H that your changes are permanent. Your M didn't get to this point in 30 days - you can't expect to fix it in 30 days. This is a marathon - not a sprint.

Be patient, understanding and (subtly) persistent."



oldtimer, It is really strange but I had the same marathon-sprint analogy running through my head earlier this morning and was about to put it down. And you are on the mark about convincing the H. It is going to take time.

"Be patient, understanding and (subtly) persistent." PERFECT!



and workingatit..."as soon as the forgiveness starting coming into play...oddly I wanted him a WHOLE LOT MORE!" _It is quite surprising how that happens._ I wish my W understood and appreciated that fact a little better. If she were reading this I am sure she would say she wishes I would stop doing things to her that required forgiveness


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL Tron! What it basically comes down to is the libido is BACK and it will be hard as hell to not be all over him tomorrow....our sex life has sucked even though after 20 years I still find him to be hot as hell - the damn wall kept me from enjoying it..

..I am already envisioning the stuff we used to do being done soon....hoping at least the night of the wedding when the kid is gone for the night.....I am hoping by then he will have melted a little more....

If I never get to have sex with him again that may kill me.....I really do not want anyone else...

We had some nice texts today...nothing emotional or misleading on his part...but at least we can text friendly...I actually moved money into our checking account twice this week...(this is one of those things that always aggravated him) - I always said I would but then never did....I am self employed and my pay is based on when my clients pay me....so I would tell him "I should get paid next week and can give you money"...meanwhile my client never paid me...this went on for a long time....and it would piss him off immensely - which I get. 

But I jsut took a great contract job with a company....and so now I have a CONSISTENT stream of income coming in and can give him money the 1st of every month.....this will also make him VERY happy! 

Cannot wait to see him tomorrow....his last text actually said "see u tomorrow".....stupid things that make me smile.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...hmmmmm begging for sex would really be wrong wouldn't it? ;-)


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> And your first paragraph about him finding being alone "appealing" is what terrifies me. I have been on his case for so long, I know the night time quiet is something he is enjoying. And I am deathly afraid that that is the one thing that will keep him from coming home.....I have done years of hurt...and I am not convinced he is patient enough to see I am committed to being different....


You are right to be afraid about this. But, I think the key is to make home that place for him too. If you can do that and convince him it's real, then he will figure out pretty quickly that home is going to be a better place than some empty lonely apartment cause he won't be alone and he is going to have an awesome wife and a loving daughter looking after him. RIGHT?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...hmmmmm begging for sex would really be wrong wouldn't it? ;-)


Yes it would.

But asking him out on a date, just the two of you would be a good way to gauge him.

Do not look weak. Be strong. Not *****y but strong.

Tell him you love him and miss him but no matter what you want him and yourself to be happy in life.

Hopefully together but if not, just happy.

And the date can be just talk or more. That depends on both of you.

The key during the next 30 days is to look not only at him but within yourself.

If you have not forgiven him, you need to decide why. And then how do you let him know he is forgiven and he believes it.

Stay strong. Be patient. And communicate.

HM64


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ...hmmmmm begging for sex would really be wrong wouldn't it? ;-)


yes, definitely wrong!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Great start. He came upstairs (although he did not need to) - when I was upstairs...said good morning...and started going back downstairs....I said wait...walked to him and he asked how I was doing....I said "I miss you but I am great" - he said "awww"

I went to hug him - he hugged me right back...then grabbed my butt.... 

Yes, a but grab means more to me than you could know....lets hope the whole weekend goes this well.....just having him here and hearing him with my daughter right now makes me appreciate everything I have at this moment....

I hope we can save this.....


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

You can. Be cool. But affectionate.

I am a buttman too and that is a great sign.
have a great day.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Grabbed your butt, eh?

You don't have to tell me how much that means. 

I'm a butt-man too. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

:smthumbup: Good stuff. Good signs. Keep going. 

Could give you a few more tips, but if you ever show him this thread, wouldn't want him to feel like he was manipulated and get pissed. Keep it real. Keep it authentic.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Yeah too bad last night and today were a totally different story. He got cranky as hell last night and then this morning I asked him a simple question about something and he jumped down my throat....

EVERYTHING I am saying today is being twisted and turned and honestly, it totally makes me thing why bother...he has issues I cannot control.

But yet he blames me for everything....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Roller coaster, sweetheart, roller coaster
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Roller coasters make me sick. :-(

......I am realizing more and more that I just do not understand this person any more. 

I noted how he hugged me yesterday (we were talking)...he said no he did not?!!??! 

So I guess I imagined that.....OK.

He did ask me to go to breakfast this morning with him and my daughter...I am going....but my heart is so conflicted anymore....

....and if he throws out he is not in love with me one more time...arrrgghhh....yeah I am not "in love" with you either....hard to be in love with someone you barely know anymore....

uugghhhh.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Just curious. What did you ask? And how?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am afraid to tell you - you will yell at me.....I know it was wrong...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I did not think it was bad at the time....but in retrospect....

"Is it fair to say you have no interest in making this work"

Yep - I should have kept my mouth shut and I did not...but last night he was such an ass and then this morning he does not even say good morning.....

His bigger issue was he was trying to do a refinance application - and that I did not ask if it was a good time to talk (I did not realize he had started the application already) --- 

Point taken. No talking. 

But he way over reacted.....we did hug, but he is being so friggin cold....he is 2 different people....one minute he seems to care, the next he does not.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I did not think it was bad at the time....but in retrospect....
> 
> "Is it fair to say you have no interest in making this work"
> 
> Yep - I should have kept my mouth shut and I did not...


Yep. Big no-no. You just became the cross examining attorney fishing for information. What few gains you made in the last few days just went down the drain. The way you asked automatically put him on the defensive and he has already told you on numerous occasions that he is on his own schedule and that decision is something he is looking for clarity on over the next few weeks. You can't fix him, and you can't fix the marriage by yourself. But you can try to give him reasons to come back home. You just gave him another reason to stay away. Stay focused on your goal, good positive messages.

If you wanted to highlight and point out the progress you thought you guys had made and give him something positive to think about all you needed to say was " I really I liked those hugs, they made me feel good, they made me feel close to you." The end. No questions, no digging for info, no pointing fingers and no giving him any reasons to think anything but positive about what happened. And furthermore it highlights for him about how you are now focusing in on you, your feelings and telling him in no uncertain terms what kind of things make you happy.

You can't continue to be mr fixit, where are we now, and let's get it done now. It's one of the things that is causing problems and creating conflict in your M.

You may want to apologize to him for bringing it up.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

workingatit - I think you just have to be patient and move along at a pace that's comfortable for both of you. I go back to the title of your thread - I think you're still thinking that you have a deadline to make everything work. That's going to create problems.

Give each "victory" (eg - when he hugged you and squeezed your bum) a little bit of time to grow before you push for the next. Recognize when he is in a cold mood and give him space. 

And if you're trying to re-build attraction - stay away from negative questions like the above. Eg - instead of the question, did you ever think of just giving him a spontaneous hug? I used to love it when my stbxw used to do that. It would give me a chance to give her a hug back and squeeze her bum!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> workingatit - I think you just have to be patient and move along at a pace that's comfortable for both of you. I go back to the title of your thread - I think you're still thinking that you have a deadline to make everything work. That's going to create problems.
> 
> Give each "victory" (eg - when he hugged you and squeezed your bum) a little bit of time to grow before you push for the next. Recognize when he is in a cold mood and give him space. !


This!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I know I know....but it is hard when he is like 2 different people. One minute he is "up" the next he is "down"..... 

And I got totally pissed this morning (I did not show him I was pissed)...but he said how he cannot "trust" me because I have lied to him...in case you missed that part...there was something about my personal business that I did not tell him...the reason I did not tell him is because I was "afraid" to talk to him about anything...because I was ashamed of my failure and felt like I let my family down...and I knew he would make me feel worse...he has thrown this back at me for years...

Yet he can cheat on me and lie about it and it is OK -

He thinks what I did is so much worse.....I said why cant we BOTH forget the past, forgive and move on. 

He said its not that easy and I am not sure I can trust you again.

SERIOUSLY?!?!?! 

I have lied to this man about 3 or 4 times in our relationship - all of it financial and related to MY BUSINESS....that is it. And he cannot trust me?!?!

I am so confused today about everything!


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> He said its not that easy and I am not sure I can trust you again.
> 
> SERIOUSLY?!?!?!
> 
> ...



Well it IS funny how some people obsess about past lies. Eg - your husband had the affair years ago, right? Yet, you are now working on forgiving him after 10 years of punishment. So again, give him some time to see the new you - *be patient*. 

It took you 10 years to decide to forgive his affair. He is just doing the same back to you. ONE of you has to break this cycle.

Again, be patient and give him time to see the new you. Don't push, don't expect things to happen overnight. 

Modify your expectations, then you will not get as frustrated and reactive. Remember, you do not have 30 days to make this work - you have whatever time it takes.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

we just got done talking and he said almost exactly what you said cedarman....that basically this is too big a decision for him to rush back into....i asked him about counseling he said he will go when he is ready...and just keeps reiterating that the lying thing is a big deal and that he is not in love with me.....

He said again lets just see what the next month brings....

He will not be staying here on weekends going forward.....which sucks for my daughter but is right for us....

I told him I will no longer call or text him unless its absolutely necessary....

I guess I am struggling with how the hell it would ever work if we do not spend a minute together to see the changes I have made....but then there is the issue of HIM not making any changes...and whether or not I can be with him anymore the way he is....

I want someone who thinks the world of me and who wants me happy and who I am not afraid to talk to about issues....I am starting to realize even if we can work things out for now - the next time something big needs addressing, I do not feel I can talk to him. When I said that to him he told me to "get over it"....

Suddenly everything is all my fault....and that pisses me off to no end....I took responsibility for the errors I have made.....and for the "lies" I told and how I can see his side....

I am so emotionally burnt right now it is not funny....

When do you realize that maybe reconciliation is NOT the right thing?!?!?!


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I am so emotionally burnt right now it is not funny....
> 
> When do you realize that maybe reconciliation is NOT the right thing?!?!?!



Sorry for what you're going through.

There is no one answer - you have to decide yourself when to call it quits. I kept trying to R with my stbxw but it never worked because she wasn't committed. In hindsight - we SHOULD have separated 3 years ago. So giving each other space is sometimes a good thing - as long as it is done soon enough. If you wait, too much hurt and pain is built up which makes future R impossible.

It's tough because separation is really a last ditch effort. But you have to make sure that your interactions are always positive. Remember, going forward, you will not be interacting as much - so make every one count. Don't try to cram too much into a small time-frame either. Just work on yourself and your improvements and hopefully, he will see them.

And remember that it is NOT just your fault. Your husband is the one who cheated initially, then you punished him for 10 years. So you are both at fault. Try to break the cycle of hurting each other in retaliation. So even if you're mad and in pain - be pleasant and happy when dealing with your husband. Take a few deep breaths or make a quick post here when you're upset vs telling your husband.

Hope things work out for you. Be strong!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

it's taken me four months to decide I don't want to R w my W. 

I'd be going over property division w her right now, but her mom (who's been under hospice care for several months) is about to kick. Even w as much animosity as I feel toward her right now, I just can't see asking her to begin those talks right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I will probably seem out of step here, but the discussion happens to touch a raw nerve here.

I don't know the details of the lies you told him, but I think that would damage my trust too. And that can never be undone.

If I were your husband, I think I would want you to (a) admit you were wrong, (b) promise never to lie again and (c) live up to that promise for an extended period, including being open to allow verification of things.

In return I think it is reasonable for him to establish the same actions, since no doubt his infidelity involved lies.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Workingatit

Patience
Patience
Patience
Patience

Rome was not built in a day. Especially after 10 years of torture.

And when it comes to lying. Stop it. You both have to be honest with each other. Period.

Take the time to improve you. Use that time to focus on your issues and your daughter.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Clearly I suck at patience....and I am trying.....but clearly it is not working....I guess you are right about me taking 10 years to forgive him and him needing time ot forgive me....I guess I ambeing too ambitious in my goals....and he thinks ANYTIME I do not tell him soemthing it is a lie....so December I cancelled our daughters health insurance (long story)....and he just found out about it and said its "just another lie"....

I tried to explain to him that we were fighting there was a lot going on and I just did not even give it a thought....I was not PURPOSELY not telling him or hiding it from...if I was I would have hid the mail....

So no matter what I do I feel like he will find SOMETHING to get mad or upset about.

Even with hugging me yesterday and today denying he did....

Are these normal things they do when they are dealing with their own issues.

I will NOT be contacting him at all this week...that is for sure....I need the break from this emotionally.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

And for the record....I do not "lie" I just do not always tell him everything because I am afraid to tell him things lately....I never saw that as lying he did....I spoke to others who said they see it as lying to...so I do realize going forward I need to be 100% open with him no matter what.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I will probably seem out of step here, but the discussion happens to touch a raw nerve here.


Absolutely not out of line.....I am here for HONESTY not just to make me better - but to make us better - although I question whether i even want that anymore.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

My wife is very "tactful". At times she will lie outright, including the classic "nothing's going on with him" and later "I have ended it", "he didn't perform this or that act with me", "he won't be at the party that I am going to and you are not" etc. this is why it's a raw nerve for me 

Thing is, if pushed I have seen her overtly lie, but mostly she omits facts that might be relevant if she considers them touchy. Either way, when she attempts to put me in a position of not knowing the whole truth, the message I get is that I can't trust her to be on my side, and that then plays into previous betrayals as "She did all this stuff before. If she is lying about some things now, what else isn't she telling me?"

The issue is not whether a given statement is technically a lie, the issue is whether she is in my side and acting in a trustworthy fashion, opposed to manipulating me and playing me. Does that make sense?
Hope this helps you to understand my comments. Maybe this is the me thought process your husband has.

And by the way, you can get through it, and if you do it can be better than ever.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

wazza what you say totally makes sense. It is just oddd, because I guess I never gave much thought to not telling someone something as being a lie. But I did speak to the counselor and she even said a lot of people would see it that way ---- so I can see how he was upset about it, and I tried to assure him that it would never happen again as long as he makes himself APPROACHABLE.

The problem is the insurance thing with my daughter just happened late last week - so of course something recent is killing me...

He actually just left....and all went OK this evening...started watching superbowl with our daughter and did some laughing.....she begged him not to go.....I HATE THAT! :-(

I will NOT CONTACT him this week...and if I feel the need to "talk" come up I will come here and vent instead.....

At least he has not said the divorce word....said lets give it 30 days and see what happens....and we have decided to go on a trip the last week of March to the Grand Canyon....it is for our daughters 5th grade graduation...and in one figth I acted like a child and said I cannot go on a trip with him...but then a week or so ago I apologized for acting like a child and said we should at least go as friends...I do not want to ruin this for her....but then today I found out he booked it without me - I love how he remembers the first conversation about me not going, but forgot the second where I apologized. But in the end he said book the flight and lets go...

I am so afraid of having NO CONTACT at all --- but realizing I really need to listen to everyone here better.....I want to keep peace and see what happnes.....

fingers crossed I can do this.......still unsure what I want....but tonite reminds me why I want it to work....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I just find it incredibly odd too that a man can cheat, lie to his wife, lie to the mistress - and then have such "high standards" for his spouse who never even out right lied to him.....I am really struggling with that one.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Oh, I just realized that I did not thank him --- he actually did some chores around the house today...cleaning floors and things...I forgot to thank him..... :-( 

I swore I would not text him this week.....but I really feel like I need to thank him since I do not want him to think I do not appreciate it....

Text thank you or no text?!!?!?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Oh, I just realized that I did not thank him --- he actually did some chores around the house today...cleaning floors and things...I forgot to thank him..... :-(
> 
> I swore I would not text him this week.....but I really feel like I need to thank him since I do not want him to think I do not appreciate it....
> 
> Text thank you or no text?!!?!?


Text.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

You seem to read into every little detail about 'him'...what he says...what he does...how he reacts...or doesn't react...

Your not gonna text him...then you want to text him...

Your pretty wishy washy...I see it ...he sees it...he's not going to respect that. 

Ever think of just ...backing off and minding your own stuff for awhile? A true 180 if you will? 

You say you've made changes...what changes? What is it you think he needs to see about you now? What is he 'seeing?'

Personally...you need to leave him alone. Your all over the place...

Just my two cents..


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Stella you are right I am a little wishy washy when it comes to him - always have been.....

But there are many changes I have made in recent weeks, the big one is taking ownership of my faults in the marriage, where I constantly hounded him that it was his fault because of the affair - that in itself is the one big thing we have fought about for years.

The fact that when he left, I said nothing. In the past I would have begged and kicked and screamed.

I have not asked him to come back once - not once. Again, in the past I would have tried to guilt him back....

I have not sat around the house waiting for him to come home - I am going on with my life and living as if we may be over.....

These are few of the changes - other things are a work in progress. Like my need to have answers NOW. That is a personality flaw that I have had for a long time, it will not change over night.

I do NOT want to text him this week - actually right now I have no desire too....but knowing he did help with housework yesterday and my not thanking him - I just feel bad.....but have decided not to text me - mostly because I have done way too much apologizing and thanking lately - I am done.

And yes, I do read EVERY action ..... and while that may be very wrong.....it is all I have to go on since he does not talk at all about what is on his mind.....it is all I got to go with. But again, that is something I am working on - another work in progress if you will.

But yes, I do plan on leaving him alone. This week I have no intentions of doing anything.....and am now strong enough to do it....Every week does seem to get a little easier.....

This is the hardest thing I have ever been through - and he is a complicated guy.....so I am having a hard time figuring it all out....I am just glad I have this forum to help me through it....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

I have read your thread all the way through. I'm on the same roller coaster ride, love him then hate him, his fault then my fault, etc. 
But no one has asks this - does he have OW in his life now?? You said he was renting a room "with" or "from a co worker?? 

You really should try to stick with the 180s, even just for a week. "Give him a chance to miss you". I suck at 180s, my biggest problem is impulsiveness. But I did go 5 days without contacting my H and all of a sudden he calls me wanting to know why I haven't responded to his email, etc. 

Its great that you've owned up to your mistakes and are working on them. Best thing you can do for you and your D. Your H sounds like mine, he's an avoider, has issues and won't go for help, would rather just hope everything goes away. But there's nothing I can do about that, and niether can you when it comes to your H.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks familyfirst09 - this is a roller coaster ride I could do without that is for sure.

I am pretty confident that there is no other OW. I was the one who asked him to leave -- and he is here on the weekends and he did assure me yesterday that he really has no interest in dating right now. he is a horrible liar so I feel pretty confident that there is no other person at this point. I really do think he is trying to figure himself out ---- 

I am doing a hard 180 this week.....honestly, after our talk yesterday I really have no interest in contacting him. His arrogance yesterday about this "lying" thing has me pretty pissed actually. 

He cannot remember ANY of my good qualities....all he can say is he hates that I am a liar --- 

And that is 100% him --- do not deal with issues, sweep them under the carpet and move on. To be honest I am not sure if I can deal with that anymore...but then he gets upset when I do not TELL HIM about problems...so if I do not tell him I am a liar, but if I do tell him he gets angry because he does not want to deal with them...so what is a wife to do....?!?

Sorry you are dealing with the same crap. It is hard because he does have so many WONDERFUL qualities -- and I have always been able to look past the bad ones.....he is the opposite only seeing my bad qualities and not the good....

I am totally torn.....but at least the crying has stopped!


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

He's only seeing all the bad ones now because of the situation. My H is the same way. And no matter what you say you can't make him see or remember any of the good qualities. H said to me the other night he should have left me years ago! Years ago we were a happy perfect couple, or so I thought anyway. 
At least there's no OW that you know of, my H moved in with posow over 2 months ago. My situation seems hopeless but I still cling every once in a while. I've hired a lawyer to start the paperwork but now am scared to actually start it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Mine has said that too - that we should have ended it years ago. But truth is we probably should have....I have been a ***** for the last few years....forgiving for an affair is a hard thing to do. I regret not talking to a counselor sooner for that. He actually said yesterday how much it hurt him how I never let it go. But now he is not letting the "lying' go - but many here said he deserves the time to forgive - it took me 10 years....so I need to loosen up.

I am thankful there is no one else - he is in a bad place right now....and I do get the feeling he is trying to "figure himself out" - and did say he will go to counseling when he feels ready. He reminded me it took me 10 years to feel ready so I cannot push him....I would just put my life on it that he has some level of depression....the lack of friends, lack of social outings, lack of want to do anything has me concerned for him. 

If there was another woman I would put an end to it NOW. I am NOT GOING through that EVER AGAIN! I promised him I would not date during this separation - I expect the same from him.

I am so sorry about your situation..I actually had read your thread about a week ago....it is hard as hell to get over that crap.....you clearly have to do what is right for you and your children...

..I know personally I would never tolerate a cheater again....I only put up with it the first time because of the situation we were in with his father dying a very slow death and a new born baby..it was an incredibly difficult time....and I gave him the benefit of the doubt...I know he has not cheated since - and he probably should have...I was wonderful to him when he first cheated so I was floored when he did it....the last 10 years I have been a ***** and he should have cheated and didn't ...... 

Do NOT be afraid to move on....you have dealt with enough hurt.....and I even am at the point where I think you know what there IS SOMEONE out there who WOULD fight for me to save our marrigae....who will only see my great qualities and who WILL realize that there is no such thing as a perfect person....some of the stuff I heard yesterday from him made me question his expectations for ANY partner....

There is life after the hurt....I am really starting to embrace that thinking....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

There is definitely life after hurt, but what kind of life? I'm petrified of moving on, I have bad self esteem issues that I need more help with. I just can't imagine life without him, but yet I have been for over 5 months...but it won't be the same after we move. I don't want that to happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Your first step is to deal with the self esteem issues. 

When I met my husband I was totally insecure and had no confidence whatsoever. Fast forward 20 years and I am a different person. I have a great group of friends, I have my own business, I take good care of myself and overall feel better than I ever have about myself. If it were not for that I would not have the strength to move on. That is why I am starting to be conflicted about even wanting this to work to be honest. 

I have this guy who only sees the one bad thing I have done and is focused on that...I am strong, independent, have been a good wife (not perfect of course!)...he has his freedom, I keep a great house, I have supported and encouraged him and always put my family first. I truly think if we divorce he is losing a lot more than I will.....

It took years for me to get to this place....but without that confidence, moving on I would imagine would be a whole lot more difficult. I have always kept my sense of "self" - while trying to be a part of "us"....I think that is so important in any marriage.

You need to take note of your wonderful qualities....of what it is that makes you special.....and then read that over and over and over.....I would definitely talk to someone as well who can help you with your self esteem - it will be crucial for you to move on..... 

...and always remind yourself that HE IS THE ONE LOSING....you are not losing anything by not having him...and he is giving you a great gift by letting you move on to find real happiness....

.....and yes, this is how i really have been thinking for myself the last few days.....

,...unless my husband gets help he will never be happy....I want more than that......if he is not happy - he cannot make me happy.....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

I am working with an IC but haven't fully dug into the self esteem issues. I think its time to start. 
I have thoughts like that as well, that he is the one that is losing out but then my insecurities creep in....and all hell breaks loose in my mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, you have to keep in mind too - men do not typically like insecure women, so the more you can do for yourself the better you will be going forward, whether in saving your relationship or moving on to a new one....you need to show him you got it together and that you are strong and do not "need" him....as strong and confident as I am - I have not done a good job of that with my husband....but am starting to prove that this week...I really do not need him...I want him - but not need him.....I think he has read me wrong for years on that...but this week I will make him think differently...


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

How do you plan on doing that?
I definitely have that motto, he's a want not a need. I just want him in my life very badly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Stella Moon said:


> You seem to read into every little detail about 'him'...what he says...what he does...how he reacts...or doesn't react...
> 
> Your not gonna text him...then you want to text him...
> 
> ...



Stella,

I agree with what you say to some extent. But I think there may be a little more at play here. workingatit is extremely uncomfortable in this limbo. She's desperate to save her marriage and has no patience. She's floundering in the water with no life jacket and has nothing to grab on to. 

She says she has made breakthroughs in IC, but at the first opportunity to show she has changed she goes back to being the badgering wife.




workingatit, you're a good woman, you're just in a bad spot right now. It's OK. Go NC if you want for the week. If you change your mind that's OK too. Women have a right to do that. But if you make C, make it positive. Always positive. You have to leave the negative $hit behind you, because it's only going to keep you in the past and in a situation that wasn't working for either you or your H. No more tit for tat. Refuse to engage in negative stuff. If he brings it up, just say I don't want to fight with you about old $hit, can we move on to something else. Always look forward.

I actually took something positive out of your description of what happened with you guys this weekend. He admitted that he needs MC/IC but isn't going to do it on your schedule. 

That kind of raised my eyebrows, so I read through some of your old threads. Do you think that you might have some control issues in your M too? Your admitted lack of patience, and the way you have been interacting with your H, b1tching, nagging, etc. give me the impression that you are a bit of a control freak. Did your H give you control over your M after the affair? Maybe he did it out of guilt/shame? If that is the case it helps explain his anger issues. He might be trying to wrestle control of this marriage away from you. It also could explain why you are so extremely uncomfortable. Has he been in charge and guided the marriage or have you?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> How do you plan on doing that?


Simple 180...no calling, no texting, no calls...and when he comes to visit with our daughter...I will be sure to have plans to go out. 

Last week I did light texting just to say hi and things....it was definitely the wrong thing to do.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron you are so awesome at this!



> Do you think that you might have some control issues in your M too?


Yes! But it was NEVER that way before. When I met him and for the first 10 years we were together I let him lead the way....and I was fine with that...as I have gotten stronger and more independent I have changed a bit....and it definitely changed a LOT after the affair..

..I did make more sense of this role change in counseling - and she did remark that may be a big issue with him in feeling less in control....and since that realization I have tried to be better about asking HIS opinion on everything..last week I totally let him handle something with my daughter and school...something in the past I felt I had to put my two cents in about....one of his big arguments with me is when I had my retail business how i never listened to his suggestions and I made it clear it was MY business....

In my defense I never realized i was doing that - but clearly he is still hurt by that b/c when he brought it up last week you can see how angry/hurt he gets.

So, I am trying to become a little more submissive...strong but submissive in my dealings with him....I think he likes to be "in charge"....and always has - I cannot expect him to change that and I do not want him to.

I am growing, I am learning, I am changing - all for the better. 

I am starting to wake up and realize 10 years of hurt cannot change overnight....and my need to "talk or address" this just lies in me knowing whether to focus my energies on us...or on my new life ahead.....

He clearly and adamantly said yesterday lets just see what the next 30 days brings -- he has a LOT of reservations and hurt (which I TOTALLY GET!)...he made a comment how staying on saturday nights is probably not a good idea since its giving me false hope (which it is not).....so I feel like he is talking out 2 sides of his ass.....lets give it 30 days, but do not get false hope....

so which is it?!?!?!?!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Just remember your H is on the roller coaster, too. 

His emotions about the situation are wildly fluctuating - just like yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I forget that oldtimer. It is hard to imagine he is thinking about this at all he seems so disconnected sometimes......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

That explains a lot. The lies/omissions, his reaction and anger... I guarantee you it is a BIG issue with him, he said as much. Your new understanding of how that has impacted your M and your actions since then is great and spot on. I think you have a healthy view of how it needs to be and what is going to make him happy...and you too. 

I think this M is so repairable. I wish you guys were in MC together already. 

I need to say that I think your counseling seems to have given you a good handle on the root causes of the dysfunction in your marriage. IMO you need to start working with your counselor on the tools you need to diffuse the conflict and start building back the trust and love. Once you start putting that action plan in place that is what is going to "show" your H the changes going on in you. 

Old Timer said it before I got a chance, but as far as your H is concerned, he is going through this too. He is dealing with the same conflicting emotions you are, no matter how cool he seems on the outside. Try to cut him a little slack and try not to overanalyze everything he says. Yeah, it hurts to hear someone say they aren't "in love" with you any more. I have felt the same about my W and vice versa. But there is an ebb and flow of love in a marriage and it is definitely NOT the end of the marriage when one or both of you say or feel it. And that "in love" feeling can most definitely come back.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Tron!



> I think this M is so repairable. I wish you guys were in MC together already.


Me too about the counseling -- when I brought it up yesterday his response was "that ship has sailed". A week ago he said "maybe after you go to a few we will see"....I am not convinced he believes in counseling, or that he will ever go.

But even yesterday he made a snide remark about something and threw out there "and what does your counselor think about that"...so I told him....

He just accused me of lying saying I probably never even discussed that specific issue with the counselor....

But I DID discuss it with her - and she actually took HIS side on the issue....so even giving him that information...he still thinks I am lying....

I am not sure that he will ever move past that....and am not sure he even wants this relationship to work all that badly....he is not as open as me to moving past things...and realizing that we can really be happy...we do have fun together when we actually do things...we still laugh together..we still have great conversations....and the physical attraction is still there....

But he is not seeing any of that....and for him to move on about the lying will take longer than I think he is willing to put in....

Truth is he has always been the loner type --- and he seems to be falling worse in that direction....and it scares me....because I am starting to think he just wants to be alone all the time now.....but when I tell him I am concerned about him he just gets mad at me......so I cannot win.....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Tron, I don't know what your story is but you're a very wise man. Your words give me hope for my hopeless situation. Also made me realize that I have had control issues in my M as well. Definitely something I need to work on with IC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron rocks...and I hang on his every word. I swear he knows my husband personally!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> and for him to move on about the lying will take longer than I think he is willing to put in....


And IMO, you as well.

You continue to put this "30 day" window into the equation.

As I said before - it took many years for your marriage to get to this point, it can't be "fixed" in just 30 days.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> And IMO, you as well


Curious, what did you mean by this part.....?!?!

I am putting the 30 day window there only because it is what he keeps saying....at this point I am not sure I want to do a 30 day window.....I do think we may need longer.....actually I know we need longer....but it is also a huge financial strain....so there are many things to consider....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Old timer, she's a feisty one, and a touch sensitive these days. You gotta watch what you say or she might bite your head off.

Not trying to high jack his thought, but I think he meant that your patience issues may keep you from hanging on long enough to get your M back on track.

As far as counseling goes, some people, and men in particular, feel like there is a stigma attached to going to counseling and needing psych help. No man wants to admit they can't control themselves. Men are supposed to always be in control of our emotions, our family, surroundings etc. and to instinctively know what to do and how to handle a situation. That just isn't reality. Your H may not want to admit that he needs it. He may be scared of it too because of what he might find out about himself. The guilt/shame issues you touched on in your other threads are a big red flag. It's good that he was reading up on it. But on the flip side, the fact that he even recognizes it in himself indicates that it is a huge part of who he is and too much of it is bad, very bad. At least that is what our MC said way back 10 years ago when I started my journey down this road of self reflection and evaluation...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

That thought got me thinking. Whoa! Just found something...

Workingonit, check this out when you get a chance:
Guilt and Shame

That is so funny. I remember distinctly my counselor asking me how much shame I had over all the crap I had pulled with W. I never understood too much why he went off in that direction. I know now.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Feisty does not even begin to describe me! 

But if that is what Old Timer means then he is absolutely right....which is why I am backing off. I finally feel strong enough to do it. I actually NEEDED to contact him to day and still did not! I am very proud of myself...figured I will wait until he contacts me to address the issue we have ti talk about...

ANd to be honest....I did not even want to contact him today. He really hurt me yesterday with some of his comments.....so I need to protect myself....

I totally get the man with counselor thing - and I think you got it again..I think he has a lot of guilt inside of him...not just with me...but for things from his past. He told me years ago what a crappy son he was never helping when his mom lay dying....treating his dad like **** even though his dad treated him like a prince....every relationship ended on a bad note with him being an ass......he has a lot of "things" to deal with. 

But he is WONDERFUL to his friends and coworkers.....

But I find it odd that he can have these kind of feelings but yet still act like an arrogant ass who is always right?!?! At least I am totally taking responsibility for my issues.....and am working to make myself better....

How do you save a marriage with someone who wont help themselves?!?!!? I am really started to lean towards not wanting to reconcile......at least not unless he does get help.....

But then I think of him sitting along in a room in a strangers house day in and day out and his only happiness being a few texts to our daughter every night and my heart breaks because I want so much more for him.....he really is a great guy in so many ways......

.....but he confuses and frustrates the hell out of me....realizing now he always has......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Tron! 

Funny thing is one day I was looking at his computer...I saw he downloaded a PDF about guilt...basically it said do not let guilt get the best of you - the other person should not let you feel guilt, they have to take responsibility for allowing you to treat them that way...
So basically because I let him treat me like crap - he should not feel guilty for it....

He uses that with me sometimes...."why did you stay with me if I treated you so bad" is a common question ---- 

Off to read the link you sent!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Focus on the shame parts. Hate to say it, but sounds pathological. Maybe the mom thing is the root of it, could definitely be a big part of it. No child abuse or molestation that you are aware of? And you don't need to answer that. Just throwing some thoughts out there. 

Whatever it is, it sounds like it is going to be very painful to rehash and work through. Don't blame him a bit for not wanting to go there. Unfortunately, it is going to follow him around the rest of his life or until he gets help and works through it.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

No, no abuse at all....he actually had WONDERFUL parents, but he was adopted and they were a lot older....and his mom took ill when he turned 12 or so so she spent years in the living room in a hospital bed and his dad worked 2 jobs to support them....so he raised himself really -- and was given money a lot to "make himself happy"...

Why am I sharing that part...because what I JUST FOUND OUT the night I kicked him out was that he thought buying me this house and giving me money for my business WAS his way of showing he was sorry and that he cared...

I never put that together....he was raised that money = love.....

That was a turning point for me with the forgiveness...but it is the first time he came out and said that to me...he thought I just "knew that"....

...but his childhood is part of the reason I am so understanding of some of the not so great sides of him....although loved a lot...his childhood was not easy....

We do have a relationship with his birth mother and half siblings....and I swear there is a hereditary issue here with depression....not one of these kids are happy (there are 5 total)........


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

And your thought on him not wanting to rehash it is understandable...but it is the part that terrifies since if he does not deal with these things, he will never get better which in turn means we will never get better.....

.....and I try to remind him that he will have the same issues with any relationship he is in...he tells me I should not care about other relationships....I guess he is right....

But I care immensly about him - but he does not give a **** so I am trying to stop......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I've got this feeling your right, that dealing with that one issue is key to getting this thing turned around. At least he wont be a insensitive **** to you anymore. Need to shut this down for the day. Before then I was going to suggest you watch the movie called Fireproof with Kirk Cameron. Kind of cheesy but the principles behind reconciliation are pretty helpful. It is based on some self help book someone published a while back, but I can't remember which one. You also gotta read the 5 Love Languages, if you haven't already. Did the Men are from Mars thing but Love Languages was much better.

Time for me to go start reading 50 Shades and see what all the hoopla is about. W read the trilogy in about 2 weeks and she never does that. Pretty sure she doesn't want me to read it. Said it might give me too many bad ideas, and I got a dirty enough mind already.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> he thought buying me this house and giving me money for my business WAS his way of showing he was sorry and that he cared...
> 
> I never put that together....he was raised that money = love.....
> 
> That was a turning point for me with the forgiveness...but it is the first time he came out and said that to me...he thought I just "knew that"....


Very common, but to say "money = love" trivialises it. If you said it that way to him he might be upset at the statement.

As a guy I put my dreams on hold to change careers and be a better provider for my wife. We discussed alternatives where I didn't have to do that and she rejected them, so off I went down a path I agreed with her first. It involved several years of VERY hard work, and walking away form my hobbies and dreams for a period. My reward was for her to be upset at the decision she had helped make, and become resentful, one of the seeds of her affair.

Now that is the story from my point of view....obviously if she told it it would be different, and she may not even make that connection, but it is real to me and her actions were a terrible, terrible, slap in the face. I pretty much gave up everything I wanted to do it her way, and it wasn't enough.

The way you phrase it suggests to me you may feel some of the same resentment my wife did. It wasn't about money per se, it was about finding practical ways to give her the best possible life...to give her things she actually and specifically said she wanted.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Not trying to high jack his thought, but I think he meant that your patience issues may keep you from hanging on long enough to get your M back on track.
> ...


^^^Exactly^^^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Very common, but to say "money = love" trivialises it. If you said it that way to him he might be upset at the statement.


Please know I only said it that way to simplify it for the board -- I would never say it to him this way or make it seem less than what it was to him. He told me this the night I told him he needs to leave...I was SOOO over the top with emotion that he came out and said this and that he was holding this in for 6 or so years I just could not handle any more. And I realize this was a BIG deal to him, he had tears in his eyes when he said it.....

Funny Wazza he did the same....a career change that initially I supported, but turned into him being out of work for a year and a half, couple that with an already crappy marriage and yeah - it was a mess.....so I can totally relate to that as well....but that I am so past....he still brings it up, I do not. 


Tron I am going to watch that movie (I have now read just about every book there is!)...I have heard it mentioned several times here so need to see what that is all about.....and I read 50 shades of gray....thought it was kind of overrated in my opinion....but cannot say it did not give me ideas.....  except now I have no one to share those ideas with.... :-(

And old timer....keep yelling at me about my patience....SOMEDAY I will get it! I am trying, really I am ..... Today WILL BE day 2 of no contact.....SCOUTS HONOR!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Please know I only said it that way to simplify it for the board -- I would never say it to him this way or make it seem less than what it was to him. He told me this the night I told him he needs to leave...I was SOOO over the top with emotion that he came out and said this and that he was holding this in for 6 or so years I just could not handle any more. And I realize this was a BIG deal to him, he had tears in his eyes when he said it.....
> 
> Funny Wazza he did the same....a career change that initially I supported, but turned into him being out of work for a year and a half, couple that with an already crappy marriage and yeah - it was a mess.....so I can totally relate to that as well....but that I am so past....he still brings it up, I do not.


Did he make that career change for him or for you?

My situation is not the same as yours, in that I was the one cheated on, your H was the cheater. That said, I am talking about what was in my head in the hope it gives you more ideas what he may have thought.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I think in his heart he thought the career change would be better for us long term, but the immediate change would be detrimental - and we knew that going in....I did support him 100% while he went to school and when he got the first job.....it was when he was out of work for about 6 months that I started ragging on him to get SOMETHING....

I know my getting on him after being out of work for months is something he also is still angry about....even though I never bring it up - so I guess it still hurts him and he lashes at me about it when we fight....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I have the INTENSE URGE to contact him.....geezus....I was absolutely fine yesterday....why all of a sudden today is my stomach in knots and I feel sick and feel like I HAVE to call him.....I HATE this.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Hang in there! Remember how good you felt at the end of the day yesterday...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, I actually HAD to text him....it was important though so hopefully that does not count?!?!

I am watching Fireproof right now.....what a movie.....

......uugghhhh today is hard......


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

A month or so back, every time I had that seemingly overwhelming urge to contact my W, I would think about things she does that aggravate and hurt. 

It helped me get over the moment, and also caused me to think in more realistic (rather than idealistic) ways about her and our relationship. That alone has been worth it, IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am trying to do that - but some how all the good thoughts race through my head instead. I am trying so hard to be a positive person these days and am trying to erase all the negative thoughts....which clearly is not helping me right now....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I am trying to do that - but some how all the good thoughts race through my head instead. I am trying so hard to be a positive person these days and am trying to erase all the negative thoughts....which clearly is not helping me right now....


If we erase all negative thoughts about our spouse, we are not being realistic. 

I truly understand how you feel. I did this nonstop until about six weeks ago - all it did was make me miserable when my W wouldn't respond positively to my requests for R. 

Self-preservation, plain and simple. You'll eventually get there.

Now if you both commit to R, then it's time to focus on the positive, IMO. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

You are right.....I guess because I do not know if R is a possibility or not it makes me what to focus on the positive so I can put myself out there in a better light to him...and for me.....I have always struggled to see the good in things....but am getting better at it and hate to go backwards....

I am trying to think of some of the things he has said to me recently that hurt me...but than that quote runs through my head of everyone saying only believe 50% of what they say or something like that -- he is hurting...he is going to be a jerk....and I try to be OK with that....

I have to say though I DO feel better than I did just a week or so ago.....I CAN see my life without him....and although I do not know if I want that or not, I do see that I will be OK.

But in the mean time the want to call him/text him/email him is high....but what is weird...but I think it is more about wanting what you cannot have....realized this morning...I have not wanted to text or call him during the day in years....why now?!?!?!

Starting to question my own need to keep this marriage going....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

You're right: what's said NOW shouldn't be taken at face value, and I discount my W's most recent rants and viciousness since our respective ddays. 

I think about things that happened before either of us cheated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Old timer where are you guys in the process? Is there any chance of R?

ETA: Just saw your thread below mine.....wow what a roller coaster you have been on..... :-(


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Old timer where are you guys in the process? Is there any chance of R?
> *
> Not when only one factor in the equation is willing, unfortunately.*
> 
> ...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Our reconciliation was very successful and the affair was a long time ago anyway so that affects what I am about to say.

Focussing on the bad parts of your past relationship, not the good, and being distant from your husband, seem to me to be very bad ideas if you want to reconcile. It is a tough rollercoaster. You should be grabbing at any straws of positive energy you can.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Sorry old timer! That sucks....and that is my fear exactly...I do not know if he has any desire to reconcile or not..... :-(

Wazza.....I do not want to be distant....that has been what this whole thread has kind of been about.....not knowing what to do or not to do....

And I watched Fireproof today and it made me feel like I should do something nice every day.....but then the fear of rejection puts me back in my place....

I am trying to think and be positive about it all....he keeps saying lets give it 30 days -- we have a wedding to go to next week....and he has not got an apartment or anything yet....but he is distant......he is being "nice" and helpful with things....but that distance is killing me......and just 3 or so weeks ago we were flirting and giggling......so it is like he did the total 180....

I have to read your history...I did not realize you were a success story.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Sorry old timer! That sucks....and that is my fear exactly...I do not know if he has any desire to reconcile or not..... :-(
> 
> Wazza.....I do not want to be distant....that has been what this whole thread has kind of been about.....not knowing what to do or not to do....
> 
> ...


I don't have a thread. Brief summary of my story in my profile. But what you are going through is pretty normal I think.

Your husband is on the same rollercoaster, remember. When he goes distant, what happens to your emotions? Why would his emotions be any different when you are distant?

Sometimes in relationships you need to take a risk, and sometimes you need to forget about who is right. It is very easy to be right, risk free, and alone.

On the other hand you might really try here, still fail, and have your heart broken.

No right answer, and no one but you can decide of the risk is worth the potential reward.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Why would his emotions be any different when you are distant?


I would think if he felt what I felt he would reach out to me...but he does not.....

I am weighing the risks now.....every day I actually get a little more confused as to what I really want.....but am not clear if it is because I am incredibly impatient or because maybe I really do not want this anymore....I am at a place where I cannot even get through my feelings to make my own sense...

I just feel like if he came back and FORGAVE me for the lack of forgive ness I have given and the constant nagging we woul dbe fine.....we have no NEW issues in our marriage - everything we are dealing with is ancient history.....it kills me....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I would think if he felt what I felt he would reach out to me...but he does not.....
> 
> I am weighing the risks now.....every day I actually get a little more confused as to what I really want.....but am not clear if it is because I am incredibly impatient or because maybe I really do not want this anymore....I am at a place where I cannot even get through my feelings to make my own sense...
> 
> I just feel like if he came back and FORGAVE me for the lack of forgive ness I have given and the constant nagging we woul dbe fine.....we have no NEW issues in our marriage - everything we are dealing with is ancient history.....it kills me....


He might be sitting there right one saying "gotta be strong, gotta not reach out, gotta do the 180, damn this is killing me....."

He might be uncertain because you run hot and cold. 

He reaches out sometimes, then withdraws. OK, don't you do that too?

You wonder whether the marriage has a future and go back and forth on that question. Isn't he allowed to do the same?

How long did it take you to forgive? How long does he get?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wow. 

That summed it up in a nutshell - and could not be any clearer - and you are of course 100% right.

I just texted him.....I think our situation is a bit different in that I asked him to leave and that we are both unsure of everything - so doing a hard 180 just does not seem right to me...I will not bego kick or scream for him to come back, but by doing a full no contact I do no want him to think i do not care at all.....

I just put out a a gentle "no response needed just wanted to let you know you are missed - and thanks for telling me about the screaming goat!"

The screaming goat is a hilarious youtube video if you have not seen it...he told me about it sunday...we were laughing for like 15 minutes...even though he had seen it a million times before...thought it would be good to remind him of a recent "good" moment.....but I look at it every day and it still makes me laugh....

He is coming by the house tomorrow for dinner to see our daughter....I just found that out.....uugghhhh


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Our reconciliation was very successful and the affair was a long time ago anyway so that affects what I am about to say.
> 
> Focussing on the bad parts of your past relationship, not the good, and being distant from your husband, seem to me to be very bad ideas if you want to reconcile. It is a tough rollercoaster. You should be grabbing at any straws of positive energy you can.


Agree in part, Wazza.

To only dwell on the positives, however, gives us an idealized view of our marriage _and_ our spouse, IMO. Used as a coping mechanism during a separation, with the other spouse not being agreeable to R, thinking honestly about the spouse helps to somewhat ease the pain and also serves to provide us some clarity. At least this has been the case for me.

Simply put, for various reasons, IMO, some marriages do not need to be continued. And they have no chance for R if both spouses are not committed.

Conversely, if both parties honestly commit to reconcile - then I think they should both concentrate on the positives, while frankly and empathetically dealing with the negatives going forward.

These obviously are my opinions, and I do not have the experience in reconciliation that you have. You and your spouse have done it successfully, so you have much better insight into what works and what does not.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> with the other spouse not being agreeable to R, thinking honestly about the spouse helps to somewhat ease the pain and also serves to provide us some clarity


I think this is perfect thinking - and I know I will be doing this when/if I find out he does not want to even try R. 

But for the time being with us being in limbo, I do think being positive is the only way to go.....even if it does hurt like hell...I think you both have great insight into this - but have such different experiences......so it is so interesting to see the different ways people address these situations....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

old timer said:


> Agree in part, Wazza.
> 
> To only dwell on the positives, however, gives us an idealized view of our marriage _and_ our spouse, IMO. Used as a coping mechanism during a separation, with the other spouse not being agreeable to R, thinking honestly about the spouse helps to somewhat ease the pain and also serves to provide us some clarity. At least this has been the case for me.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you wrote and I don't think it contradicts what I wrote.

It is very hard to be realistic when you are on the roller coaster. Being overly positive then overly negative is par for the course. 

I don't want to get into a long discussion about when to reconcile vs when to walk away, unless it helps other people, but as a general principle a relationship is something you have to work at. Your head and heart have to work together. And, with no specific reference to any other poster here, I have definitely seen times when friends gave up and walked away from marriages that could have been saved. I understand it, came close myself....but there are sometimes advantages to hanging in.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> gave up and walked away from marriages that could have been saved


Interesting thought......

How do you know though for real when it can be saved? My husband says lets give it 30 days - but then in the next breathe can say it will never work. What do you do with that? 

I am still not convinced that a marriage can be saved when you live apart....I feel like we are just growing further and further apart.....

Is there a point where one just KNOWS it wont work?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Interesting thought......
> 
> How do you know though for real when it can be saved? My husband says lets give it 30 days - but then in the next breathe can say it will never work. What do you do with that?
> 
> ...


You don't know. That's what makes it so damn hard.

I had it easy, I decided to stay for the kids. I had NO reason at the time of the affair to have hope for the reconciliation that my wife and I eventually achieved. 

Right now I would say, make the best character judgement you can of your spouse and back it. But that is hard....in my case I wanted someone who was faithful and loving and my wife had (a) had an affair, (b) refused to stop it (c) been dishonest and deceptive and (d) told me everything wrong in the marriage was my fault. Counselling might have helped but she refused it.

Knowing what I know now, I can make sense of those behaviours, and my criteria would be whether it was an aberration with extenuating circumstances or a part of her core character. But there is no way I could have made a judgement with any real confidence for several years after the affair.

Would you rather risk trying to reconcile and having your heart broken by failure, or walking away to have your heart broken by realising he was the one after it is too late?

Sucky decision but you have to make it.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Would you rather risk trying to reconcile and having your heart broken by failure, or walking away to have your heart broken by realising he was the one after it is too late?


hmmmmmm......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

One of the reasons my wife and I have a good marriage now is we reached the stage where we could really talk about the hard bits. It was difficult and VERY painful. We both had to confront a lot of stuff we would rather not confront, and we had to accept that bringing up hard topics was about resolving issues, not about attacking each other.

One specific that might also affect you. I had to talk through the affair to make sense of it, to deepen my understanding of what had happened and why. Extremely painful for me, but also for my wife, who thought I was bringing it up only to attack her. The affair was genuinely out of character for her, and she felt so ashamed of what she had done.

But anyway, at the end, we are back to that "no secrets between us" feeling, and we have a shared history that it would be VERY hard for someone else to duplicate. Plus we know what it feels like to think the marriage is gone, which gives us both a strong incentive to work at it.

All of that comes from gritting our teeth and working through the problems.

From what you are saying, I don't get the feeling that either you or your husband are shallow or flighty people. I get the feeling you have substance. Therefore, while I don't know what is going to happen, my gut feel is that you may have a shot at reconciling if you both want it.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Would you rather risk trying to reconcile and having your heart broken by failure, or walking away to have your heart broken by realising he was the one after it is too late?
> 
> Sucky decision but you have to make it.


How do you know whether its worth trying to reconcile?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I had to talk through the affair to make sense of it, to deepen my understanding of what had happened and why. Extremely painful for me, but also for my wife, who thought I was bringing it up only to attack her.


This is exactly what we have been going through for 10 years...I have wanted a WHY it happened from him. He never gave me one.

In counseling about 2 weeks ago....I had TWO DIFFERENT COUNSELORS say...."did you ever think for a moment that he really does not no why he did it"...

No, I never gave that a thought. And he has told me for years that he does not know why...I thought it was a cop out. But I truly believe he does not know. (Keep in mind his dad was dying, we had parental problems on my side and our daughter was born when all this happened - the death of his dad was a catapult for everything)....

My husband is NOT a communicator on any level....I truly think he would rather walk away from this marriage than really talk through the problems....that is why I am afraid. :-(

But I do believe he is really using this time to figure himself out.....and he has said many times that I can do better.....although I have told him he is all I want, it never seemed to be enough....

I have finally found peace and forgiveness with the affair and want to never speak of it again.

And I have told him this. But I do not know that he believes it.

Only time will tell I guess....and we are both incredibly insightful intelligent people....our only problem is communication...and I cannot make that better on his end....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> How do you know whether its worth trying to reconcile?


Only your heart can answer that. 

My heart is conflicted right now....and I am trying to make sense of everything in my own mind to figure out if I even do want to reconcile anymore....but no one can answer this question but YOU.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

My mind changes daily!
Did he respond to your text?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I hear you on the changing daily...no response..but I wrote no response needed.....and I won't text him again for a few days...I actually get stronger every day...wen o dinner with a friend and our kids and it always makes me feel like a divorce would be ok!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> This is exactly what we have been going through for 10 years...I have wanted a WHY it happened from him. He never gave me one.
> 
> In counseling about 2 weeks ago....I had TWO DIFFERENT COUNSELORS say...."did you ever think for a moment that he really does not no why he did it"...
> 
> ...


My wife genuinely didn't know. And what thoughts she did have were so conflicted and confused by her trying to justify things. She blamed post natal depression but that is clearly an incomplete explanation at best.

She is also an avoider and not a communicator. Our work on that aspect continues. That is, from my perspective, the key to heading off another affair.

Persist with communication. Gently but unrelentingly.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Wazza....I am really trying to keep some communication open...

I am guessing your wife was like my husband in that he seems OK not talking to me at all for days on end?!?! This is the part that scares me.......or concerns me I guess is the right word....

I know he will never be a communicator on the level I am but I do need to know he will talk to me about important issues before we can even think of a R. I cannot go be married to someone who cannot tell me when things are bothering him...

Did you do a full no contact with your wife? I am only 2 weeks separated....I am getting less and less with the contact......it is getting easier for me....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Thanks Wazza....I am really trying to keep some communication open...
> 
> I am guessing your wife was like my husband in that he seems OK not talking to me at all for days on end?!?! This is the part that scares me.......or concerns me I guess is the right word....
> 
> ...


My wife is great at small talk but not at talking about hard stuff. Things that bother her, to use your words. She is a lot better but it remains an issue. We work on it.

I never went no contact, we never separated. We continued to live together and for a couple of years our conversations were restricted to "business matters" ..kids, finances, etc, nothing too personal. 

Her affair was the early nineties...the stone age in internet terms.....all the information you get on TAM today wasn't available. Never heard of no contact, never contemplated those strategies. It was as simple as...."She cheated, she hates me, I cannot stand what she did...but we have kids together. I will not divorce and expose them to the heartbreak and dangers divorce brings." So I focussed on forming a civil working relationship with her for parenting and it grew from there.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

That is so great that you beat the odds and made it work. 

It is funny because on one hand I am so glad I asked him to leave because it forced me to do things i would not have done - like a take a deeper look inside myself and talk to the counselors to resolve some issues I did not even realize I had...

But on the flip side I am so mad I did it because I think it is just pushing us further away.....we had a few weeks before he left that were so good....if I had kept my big mouth shut, we may actually have been in an OK position right now....

I just love to hear a happy ending....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

He is here now and being so cold and I hate it - he talks to me but it is so "forced".....please give me the strength to not open my mouth and ask what we are doing....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Try to detach. Can you go read a book, or somehow ignore him? It will help. He's probably just as uncomfortable as you are. But just remember it was his choice to move out even tho you asked him to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

yeah i just came upstairs.....thing that sucks is my daughter promised him dinner so I have to go back down to make it....ughhhh


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Oh I get yelled at on here if I say I'm making H supper. Tell him to make his own damn supper!!! But I know you won't cause I didn't either. I don't now, mind you, but that's just how our new schedule is. How old is your daughter again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Detaching is one option. Looking for safe ground where you can interact and break ice is another. 

If you choose to reconcile you will need to break through the ice at some point.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

We are sitting in the family room together....he and I sat and had dinner together...(dinner was more for my daughter than him....I would never make dinner just for him even when we were OK, I hate cooking!).....we had chit chat and talked about our refinance and work...it was OK...

Before dinner I just straight out asked - do you want me to leave you two alone, I am not sure what I should be doing when you are here - he said "do what you want" ---- then I just asked the question...."Do you want a divorce or not".......his response

"I know you do you have said it a thousand times in the last ten years"....

I told him right now I do not know what i want....I am confused....and not sure what to do....I think deep down I want this to work, but feel like I cannot even get you to be friends with me....

I told him I just feel like we never gave this a chance...he said we tried for 10 years...I said no we did not for 10 years I nagged you about talking to me about the affair....and asked him "when did you ever really communicate with me" - he said "I guess never"...


My last statement to him was...."that is why I am not sure what to do, I think we can work this out because all of the issues we have are in the PAST"

His response "then get over it and move on"....I said I have....

...then we ate......

....and now we are giggling.......

...so he did not say he wants a divorce....I guess that is good.....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Sounds like he is waiting for a direct response from you. This is just my thought, I would listen to the vets on here but if I were you, I would hug him on the way out (not in front of your D) and say point blank "I do not want a divorce" IF and only IF you truly don't want one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am not sure that is it familyfirst...I have always said I did nt want a divorce, but I clearly said today I am not sure what i want - and I meant it. 

He should be using this separation to do some things to deal with his own issues and he is not....that concerns me greatly since I do not want to be with aperson who cannot work thru problems with me....and has no ability to comunicate....

..and I am not doing any more hugs....next one will come from him....or there will never be another....

I am getting stronger every day.....and realizing that overall I have been a wonderful partner to him.....and I do deserve more than he can offer....he has said that many times.....finally starting to see how true it is....

.......I will not do a hard 180....but will pull back a bit.....he has not brought up divorce at all....and I gave him the opportunity to say it and get it over with.....so I am just going on.....albeit quite a bit stronger than when this whole thing started.....

We do have a vacation planned for the last week of march....and we did discuss those plans tonite as well....I had originally said I would not go...but do not want to hurt my daughter...and it might be a good chance to be away and enjoy each other....(we have not been on a family vacaton in 7 years) --- so it is long overdue...

...ohhh and my daughter is 10....and she is OUR WORLD.....we WILL remain friends for her no matter what.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Sounds like a very healthy conversation to me, and I like your attitude in the last post. Reconciliation may involve compromise, but that is not the same as being a doormat.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Wazza.....that is why I wanted to make it clear to him that I am NOT sure what I want because of his lack of communication with me...not just during the separation but during our relationship.....

Looking at him tonite....I am just not sure what I want anymore.....I do not want to be with someone who does not value this relationship...and who cannot see that our problems are so easily fixable.....every fight we have is about things that are at least 2-3 years old...NOTHING NEW....if we can just put the past behind, forgive and move on - I bet we would be wonderfully happy....but he is always a see the glass half empty type ----- although he thinks he has changed in that respect...he has not.

A doormat I am not..... 

I love him...I am not in love with him.....I know I can get that feeling back....but he would need to change too...and I know deep down he will not.....makes me very sad.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

What are the things you like about him?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> What are the things you like about him?


And this is what I spend my free time thinking about...and here is what I got....

What I Love:
1. Funny
2. Smart
3. Great work ethic
4. Helps around the house - without me asking
5. Handles all the manly stuff around the house - and does not complain (cars, yard etc) 
6. Still hot as hell to me
7. Great friend - to others only of course
8. Best father in the world

What I Hate:
1. Has become withdrawn/unsocial - talks to friends on the phone on occasion - but never seems to want to do anything
2. Never does anything - spends to much time on computer and on the couch (I think 1 and 2 are part of depression)
3. Communication skills suck
4. Complains too much - people and things
5. Never really makes me feel wanted or loved in a way that I CAN understand (I think he has tried in his own way and I missed it - but I have flat out said hey, take me away overnight and still nothing)
6. Cannot deal with conflict or fix issues within our marriage - has the sweep under the carpet mentality
7. His way is right, everyone else is wrong

So as you can see this is why I struggle....there are just as many reasons for me to not like him as there are.....and that is why I am so confused......

I realize NO ONE is perfect and it is really a point of what I can live with and what I cannot......but I am not sure if we did stay how much of that second list will change.....

....and there is the possibility that none will change because he is not getting any help to deal with them.....and that I am not sure I can handle any more....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Thanks Wazza.....that is why I wanted to make it clear to him that I am NOT sure what I want because of his lack of communication with me...not just during the separation but during our relationship.....
> 
> Looking at him tonite....I am just not sure what I want anymore.....I do not want to be with someone who does not value this relationship...and who cannot see that our problems are so easily fixable.....every fight we have is about things that are at least 2-3 years old...NOTHING NEW....if we can just put the past behind, forgive and move on - I bet we would be wonderfully happy....but he is always a see the glass half empty type ----- although he thinks he has changed in that respect...he has not.
> 
> ...


This is SUCH a great attitude. I hate the ilybinilwy...but I think its legitamite in your case. It takes two and he's not putting any effort in. My H is just like yours (altho he displays no interest in coming back) but he's also not working through his own issues. I've been the doormat, not anymore. I don't love the man who he is now and is not willing to take responsibility or put forth any effort. Good for you for standing up for yourself. Your bettering yourself for you!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

workingatit said:


> And this is what I spend my free time thinking about...and here is what I got....
> 
> What I Love:
> 1. Funny
> ...


Yep, just like my H. And ALL of the things you "hate" about him, you cannot control or fix. He has to be willing to make those changes himself. Unless he does....well, I think you know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So I got up the balls and put my foot down. He is clearly being very aloof about everything and I am not dealing with it.

I sent a VERY NICE email stating gently why I think this marriage is work saving - and reminded him of a day not that long ago where we really connected (over yard work no less!)....I noted the reasons I love him...and how I feel certain that all of our issues are PAST issues and if we can BOTH forgive and forget we could move on to better things...

It was a little lengthy, but beautifully worded to concentrate on the positive reasons....

I gave him the opportunity to just say he wanted a divorce through a CAREFULLY worded sentence....and wrote after that how after a 21 year investment in a relationship that coming back to reconcile for 6 months is a small price to pay to have the chance to save a family and a relationship....

I know many here would not have recommended this....but his conflicting statements and actions are just unbearable to me. 

I have accepted it may be over.....so I know in my heart this is what I needed to do.....

He already responded with a "I will read this later it is so loooong"! 

I know we will remain friends either way....but hope I worded it well enough that he can see the benefits to reaching out a bit and letting me back in without fear of me bringing up crap from 10 years ago....

Fingers crossed....although I CLEARLY noted that no response was needed and it was just things for him to think about while we continue on with our separation....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> So I got up the balls and put my foot down. He is clearly being very aloof about everything and I am not dealing with it.
> 
> I sent a VERY NICE email stating gently why I think this marriage is work saving - and reminded him of a day not that long ago where we really connected (over yard work no less!)....I noted the reasons I love him...and how I feel certain that all of our issues are PAST issues and if we can BOTH forgive and forget we could move on to better things...
> 
> ...


People here would not have recommended having an honest dialog about your problems?

Without knowing the specific content of the email, based on how you describe it, I think it is very healthy. One of the reasons you are here is a lack of such communication in the past. And your thirty days is time to work on problems.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> And this is what I spend my free time thinking about...and here is what I got....
> 
> What I Love:
> 1. Funny
> ...


A lot of your hate list are very common. 5 and 6 for a start. They can be worked on.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

But that is it Wazza...I do not think HE is working on anything. So this separation is kind of pointless....I know I asked him to leave - and he is angry about that....but he said back in october he wanted a divorce and did nothing since one way or another...my asking him to leave was based on his wanting a divorce - but now we are in limbo --- and he is clearly not communicating anything with me......

I am going ot post the letter.....I think you will see I really tried to make a positive letter....

Basically my goal is to just hear him say I want a divorce so I can file and move on - I do not want to be with someone who "is not sure what he wants" - either you want to work on it or you do not....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

This is my FINAL correspondence to my husband on this issue. 

------------------------------

You said yesterday how I have said for years I wanted a divorce, and you are right - I did say it. I said it out of dire frustration and in the hopes I could get you to TALK to me so we can make things better, I guess in some crazy way I thought it would get you to understand how hurt I was - I never said it because I actually wanted it to happen. 

Was it childish, absolutely - was it wrong, yes - would I ever say something again I did not mean, no. But I wish you would understand how when you do not talk to me it hurts and just makes me feel like you do not care at all about anything....

With all that we are going through, the thing that is most upsetting to me is that every issue we seem to have is from the past - and the fact that both of us hold grudges. You said it best, get past it and move on. I have - but can you?

While I do not know what the future will bring for us, I know that this family is important to me - and in my opinion worth fighting for since I truly do believe that with all the past crap removed from the equation and some time we can truly enjoy each other again....and I would like to give our family that chance. I do not think we are at a point of disliking each other so much that we need to walk away from it all....

Divorce is a path I would rather not go down at this time for any of us. I do not think our issues are so big they cannot be fixed with some time and patience - and trust. Just a few weeks ago we were teasing and kidding and laughing...we have enjoyed a few really good days in the last couple of months.......those should turn into the norm for how we spend time together....even the day we were in the yard working on the tree branches was fun - and I started to wonder why we do not do more things like that - and realized it was because of me....but I would really welcome the chance to have more days like that with you. We have had so much crap that it is hard to remember the good....but that is what I have been working on - only remembering the good.....and I know right now all you see is a nagging *****y wife - but that is NOT who I am or who I want to be and who I will NOT be ever again - you just need to see that for yourself on a consistent basis...

I do not want to stay in this marriage because of comfort or because its easier or because I am afraid of the future - I am wanting to try because I truly believe it can be saved and can be a great marriage - but again, we both have to forgive and move on...and be patient......

If you are already done with this marriage and just want to divorce, that is fine - just let me know so I can move on. I am not going to beg or force you to stay in something you do not think is worthwhile in the long run .......or something you are not willing to invest some time into to make it better........I am not going to break down and cry or give you a guilt trip - I will be OK. I do not want a divorce but will accept it and move on.....

But, If we can give this a try after this 30 day separation - my promises to you are :

-To be more easy going and less "controlling" so to speak - to just let things flow as they will
-I will never again not tell you ANYTHING or lie as long as I know you can hear me without judgement...I am not perfect I will screw up - I just do not want you to make me feel worse - I want you to be my friend
-Nagging or "talking" about issues is done.....the past is the past.....I am so over it....
-Have more sex....more good sex.....for BOTH of us.....

I do not like this lack of communication right now and think it is doing us more damage than good - although the time apart has been super beneficial for me to work on ME - and counseling has been wonderful for me as well. I hate not knowing whats going on at work, I hate not being able to text you without feeling like I am bothering you, I hate this weirdness about us...

Yes, I asked you to leave - I understand you are angry about that - and in some ways I regret it with all my heart - but on the flip side - it was good for me and has helped me immensely because it forced me to really look inside myself and where I have failed as a wife and even as a friend. The time apart is a good thing, the lack of communication is not.....

I love you with all of my heart - and I always will - and if I have ever made you feel any other way, I am sorry. 

You asked once why I would want to still be with you if you always treated me so badly - you have not ALWAYS treated me badly, those are the times i have been concentrating on though more recently....I love you because you are funny, intelligent, gorgeous, a great dad and genuinely a good person. I just do not always like the way you treat me, but I can see how being good to me in recent years could have been challenging and not something you even wanted to do......

I will not send any more emails about this, I am not expecting a response - and I do not even want to talk about this anymore, unless you want to - I just wanted to put it all out there to get my words and thoughts to you while we are both still figuring it all out........

....all I want is the chance for us to be happy together....all the crap left behind and to move on to a future filled with stupid jokes, great trips, new experiences and a deeper friendship than ever....I know there are no guarantees that this will work, but with all the time we have invested....I think 6 or so months of reconciliation would be a fair attempt to salvage this relationship and this family.....

.....the past is the past and I am so ready to "get over it" and move on...... ;-)


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> But that is it Wazza...I do not think HE is working on anything. So this separation is kind of pointless....I know I asked him to leave - and he is angry about that....but he said back in october he wanted a divorce and did nothing since one way or another...my asking him to leave was based on his wanting a divorce - but now we are in limbo --- and he is clearly not communicating anything with me......
> 
> I am going ot post the letter.....I think you will see I really tried to make a positive letter....
> 
> Basically my goal is to just hear him say I want a divorce so I can file and move on - I do not want to be with someone who "is not sure what he wants" - either you want to work on it or you do not....


The note was good IMO. See what he comes back with. If he wants to try, then think about strategies for working on things.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Wazza - I did put a lot of though into it and chose my words carefully.....the only issues we would really need to address is more open communication..IMO. He may see things much differently though - which is why I wrote the letter......so either its over or he tries and he has 2 weeks left to decide...after that I file.

Life is too short to me to spend time with someone who is "not sure" or not willing......I have never been unsure about our marriage...just frustrated by his lack of communication and resolve....

Seems like such a waste to throw this all away....but at least I can say I tried......


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

I think it's a great letter...

You wrote in it that your not expecting a response...but you are...you want a response do you not? Thats what this is all about..an answer...I think you should have left that out...imo..


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I do want a response, but not until he has time to think and absorb ---..I just did not want him to think he needed to answer me NOW..... 

The only line I am expecting a response to immediately is the one about the divorce...if he knows in his heart RIGHT NOW that he wants a divorce, then yes, I hope he tells me so I can get started moving on with my life...

Basically by not answering that question - he will be telling me he is not sure....in which case I know we have a chance....

If that all makes sense.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit,

I love the letter, I hope it gets you the response you want.

I don't want to hi-jack your thread, but while you are waiting for a response, I am gonna give you a another good story to cheer you up.

Ours is a long story and it would make a fantastic case study for a psychologist because there are so many moving parts that started long before the W and I ever met. The W is the D of a Vietnam vet who came out of 'nam with PTSD and on drugs. He abandoned her, her sister and mom at age 3. I had a good strong family with a dad that was gone a lot of the time, but with a very strong self sufficient mom who grew up in post WWII Germany.

W and I never had issues talking...shouting...arguing, we were quite good at that, but because I had very little empathy, because of my upbringing and a previous relationship with OW, I was a HARD but broken man, a real A$$ in all sense of the word. She never got the right responses from me to get any resolution. I would get defensive, she would not feel heard, my apologies would seem hollow and fights lasted a lot longer than they should. Old unresolved issues would be brought up into every new argument. (Does this sound familiar?) We were both arguing over who was right as opposed to dealing with the feelings and helping each other work through those. And let's face it, I didn't care much about her feelings anyway. Establishing whose facts were right (which can sometimes be subjective) seemed to be infinitely more important than the hurt that was caused. We are 2 alphas.

When she had unresolved issues, her method of teaching me how much it hurt was to argue some more and then give me the silent treatment. Sometimes days, sometimes weeks. It built up a lot of resentment on my part, I reacted badly, I was grumpy all the time and I would occasionally verbally lash out. We had two kids and from day 1 with D#1, she let them sleep in our bed at night. I moved to another room and that is where I stayed. She abandoned me as a W, detached from me and focused her energy on the kids. We became housemates raising kids and the M slowly eroded. By year 7 of this arrangement there wasn't much left of the M and she was biding her time waiting for both of the kids to get in full time school so she could be less dependent, get a job, kick my a$$ out and get the D rolling. I was just angry, alone and unhappy all the time. 

This is when the OW pops back up out of the blue after an 18 year hiatus. 18 years previous, that relationship with OW was love at first sight. It was intense, passionate, connected, you name it...a soul-mate, or so I thought. I was in college, when the OW was still in HS. We were too young, it was too intense and her parents broke us up and kept us apart for a year and a half. The feelings during that year and a half didn't change so when the OW left home to go to school we were supposed to meet up and pick things up again. She had finally graduated HS and moved up to a university about 1.5 hours from mine. So we talked by phone and I was going to travel to her and meet up at her Univ over a weekend and see where it went. That relationship ended before it even started up again and ended very badly for me with a telephone call just before the weekend I was supposed to come up and see her. Her new boyfriend was standing next to her while she told me that we were done over the telephone. She had a new boyfriend and was moving on. I had not seen her in maybe 6 months, but earlier in the week when we were talking on the phone alone, it was like nothing had changed between us. I never saw her again and never had the face-to-face that I needed to get any closure. As a result, a lot of the feelings between me and the OW stayed with me for years and years and had held me back in every subsequent relationship, including the one with my W. 

Fast forward, I am in a bad marriage, the old flame contacts me and apparently she still has feelings for me...yeah, I knew that already. We emailed for a couple days, we live in the same town and we meet up at a park and sit down to talk. The face-to-face was all I needed. She was in a bad marriage with the old boyfriend, he was controlling, etc. etc. She missed me, felt bad about the call, loved me, blah blah blah, she was having an EA with some other dude and she just didn't know what to do with all these conflicting feelings and her life in general. She was sorry about how insensitive she was in ending the relationship the way she did (no $hit, you gutless b!tch). Internally I was screaming "this is not the girl you put up on the pedestal, this is a train wreck." It flipped a switch in me and I knew I was over her. I send her a goodbye email and went home to talk to my W. I walk in the door and see a completely different woman, a beautiful woman that I love and a woman I can open up my heart to. That heart had been closed and shuttered for a long time and had made me do so many hurtful things to not only my other girlfriends before my W, but to my W during the years leading up to and during the marriage. I tell the W about the meet-up with OW and tell her how I really feel about her and that things are going to be much better between us from now on. I believe it too.

W is happy about that for a couple of weeks, but is suspicious and starts snooping through emails. I lie about a few things and leave some things out to save her feelings. She finds the emails, goes ballistic and tries to kick me out. I don't leave so she packs up the kids and moves to her sister's house. We don't go NC or 180, but the trust is gone and the M is in a shambles. We are officially separated. 

I knew from day 1 with W that cheating was a deal-breaker for her. Her dad cheated on her mom and she had a no tolerance policy. I cheated right before we got engaged and had a couple of other real stupid indiscretions along the way. She did not know about any of these...yet. 

D-day +4: Our lives are a mess and I am freaking out. I call a psychologist friend and ask for a referral to a good MC and I make an appointment. I called the W and told her, see if your sister can watch the kids, I am picking you up in 30 minutes, we are going to see a MC. Bless her heart, she says ok. I think we had 6 sessions in less than 2 weeks. D-Day +6, D#2 whines to mom that she wants to go home. W capitulates and the family is back together under one roof. Things are still not good at home. We are hot and cold, but connecting on a level when things are good like we never have before. But, the interrogations have just started. You know the drill. 

D-day +37 is a bad day. After a couple of grueling hours of interrogation, this is the day that the confessions start. What we built in the 6 weeks after D-Day is totally gone, she feels that the whole M was a lie, the kids are illegitimate and that she was duped into marrying me. She kicks my butt and I am back in the other bedroom and alone again. A D looks like it is on the horizon. We had finally hit rock bottom...and we stayed there for another month or two, even with MC about twice a week. In the meantime, I have found my own IC to deal with my issues with intimacy, anger, empathy, porn, etc. I am tossed salad and rebound quick. I crawl out within a month or so. IC works well for me. I start working on me, reading books, trying to be a better H, etc. Because of W's abandonment and trust issues from childhood and because of me she is a scrambled egg. She doesn't trust me at all and is just waiting for the next confession. Her road through hell took a lot longer and had a lot more bumps.

That was May/June 2003. 10 years ago.

She has a hard time opening up, being vulnerable and still pulls back every so often. But we are still together and are enjoying what I would call our 4th honeymoon period. #1 was around the time we met, #2 was after our wedding, #3 was mid 2004 to 2006, and the latest started last year and is ongoing. We had about a 3 or 4 year hiccup in the middle there when we had our 3rd child, but because of what happened before, I had confidence that we would pull through it. Each honeymoon period seems to be better than the last. Our relationship and connection is pretty strong right now. Personality wise, we are very different people, but she is a good partner for me and is strong where I am weak. The times when she pulls back are very hard on me, but it serves as a reminder to me that a M needs to nurtured every day and that maybe I am not giving her the reassurance that she needs to jump back in. I try to be empathetic and understanding and on occasion we still talk about the old stuff. I know we shouldn't do it, but we don't fight and it serves as a reminder to both of us that each of us has feelings and dealing with those is what is important. I don't go into arguments to win the battle any more. Things are more calm and we get along well.

For the most part, we have forgiven each other for the old stuff. But those wounds were really deep and neither one of us have forgotten them. She sometimes forgets that a M is 50/50 and when things aren't working, both partners share the blame, as well as the responsibility for getting it kick started again. She too often waits for me to get it going again and I don't always want to be the one chasing her around to get her to kick it up a notch. 

I can say that when everything is working, it is divine. It is the way God meant for it to be. 


Now the message I would like to give to you is that if he responds positively to your letter (and maybe even if he doesn't), then make the appointment with the MC and either tell H where to go or pick his sorry a$$ up from his apartment or work and drag him. Tell him your counselor needs you there to help you. Whatever it takes to get him there. It doesn't mean he has to participate. And remember that IT WILL NOT ALL GET FIXED IN ONE OR TWO SESSIONS. THINGS MAY VERY WELL GET WORSE BEFORE THEY GET BETTER.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

UMMM. wow Tron you make my marriage sound wonderful! 

You actually sound just like my husband...and I am so glad that you found your better self and made things work with your wife - there is nothing better than a guy who can turn it around and who can see their faults. (My husband has yet to do that).

In all honesty, I am really expecting him to just say he wants a divorce. I do not see him changing or taking responsibility for anything.....honestly, it is why I wrote the letter- to give him a "friendly" out where he can just say it is over without feeling like I am going to beg or cry or scream at him (which yes I wpuld have done months ago) - but not now. 

If by some small miracle he does want to reconcile, I know he will not go to marraige counseling....that has been a point he is adamant about. He did go to a counselor when he cheated - and she was horrible so I do not think he sees the value.....

I would love to have your happy ending....I just do not see it in the cards here.....the most I can hope for is a good friendship as we raise our daughter together.....

But thank you for sharing yur story......I am sure there are many who can relate and will love to see that even worst case scenarios can have good outcomes!!!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Your comment about your H and the counselor unfortunately is true sometimes. Some Counselors are just not very good. And some may be good for one kind of problem or person and not the other. What I am trying to say is that he may need to go see a different counselor. They are certainly not all made the same. 

I was fortunate that I had a good friend in the business and I asked her to give me the three best ones she knew. We got a good one that really connected with my W. I had been to a pretty worthless one a year or two before. 1 session and done just like your H.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I do not think he will go at all....and I obviously cannot force him. He is incredibly stubborn.....

I got liucky...this is the first time I have ever been to a counselor and I LOVE HER....I have learned more about myself in 3 sessions than I have in 43 years.....it is part of the reason I have the strength to let this go......

I just hate seeing him seem to be going through life with such "numbness" for lack of a better word....nothing makes him really happy and nothing makes him really upset.....he thinks it is a good way to be...I disagree....I think when you are not "feeling" you are not living....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> UMMM. wow Tron you make my marriage sound wonderful!


It wasn't as bad as i make it sound and we didn't get mad physical, except when she kicked my butt that one time...We just really were not happy with each other a lot of the time and arguments and disagreements lasted way too long. We had good moments together sometimes and still travelled and made some good memories. It just wasn't enough to even out the overall frustration we both had with each other the rest of the time. We weren't meeting each others needs. The home was mostly calm but the undercurrents running through the M were not healthy and it was coming apart.

Not that way now.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I do not think he will go at all....and I obviously cannot force him. He is incredibly stubborn.....
> 
> I got liucky...this is the first time I have ever been to a counselor and I LOVE HER....I have learned more about myself in 3 sessions than I have in 43 years.....it is part of the reason I have the strength to let this go......
> 
> *I just hate seeing him seem to be going through life with such "numbness" for lack of a better word.*...nothing makes him really happy and nothing makes him really upset.....he thinks it is a good way to be...I disagree....I think when you are not "feeling" you are not living....




But if you don't think he will even go at all...then what's in it for you? What's the 'win' here? What's going to be different in your marriage on 'his' part? How are you going to get back together and not resent the hell out of him for not being able nor willing to communicate? 

So if he's willing to move back in...you realize that that alone isn't 'working on the marriage'...he's not 'working' at anything... 
zip...nada...nothing. 

That's how it would be...you would settle for that? And for how long? Again...you would resent the hell out of him...maybe not right away as you would be glad he's home...but once the smoke clears...and he has nothing to say...

I dunno... 

You've expressed you hate his numbness...etc...

Well...unless he works through it...what are you gaining here if he doesn't go to MC or IC? _...nothing..._

I dunno...I just think he needs to pull his head out of his azz for you as well is what I'm getting at...otherwise what's the point???!!! :scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

And I used to hold things in, things would bottle up and then I would surprise the W every so often with a huge blowup and bunch of grievances. I try not to do that Anymore. We deal with things as they come up now.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Stella I totally get your point --- and that is why I am being stronger than I have ever been and it is why I wrote in the email that we should do a 6 month reconciliation and see how it goes.

I cannot say for certain if his apathetic attitude at this point is because of things within him...or because of the hell I have put him through the last few years....

So if we should reconcile....and I go back to being the easier person I was to live with - my hope is that it will help him be less apathetic and let the real guy I love come through....and if not.....then I know his issues are deeper and I will move on....

He has had moments in the last couple of months where he was wonderful.....it ebbs and flows, but I can see how it was based on hwen, how and where I decided to have one of my "talks".

I know it seems kind of ass backwards to do things this way -but I do think it is the right way for us.

Funny thing is my daughter just told me tonite she thought daddy wanted to make it work because she saw him typing "marriage help" in his search box.....not sure if that is really what she saw.....but it would be awesome to know maybe he IS at least reading....truth is I do not know what he is doing during this time....he does not tell me...

But in all honestly - I am quite confident he will just tell me he wants a divorce, so I am not stressing his coming back.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron it sounds like you guys have come such a long way...and you two sound so much like us it is scary...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Just imagine if your H was a lawyer and trained to argue any side of an issue right or wrong, do it to win, and be able to nitpick you 
to death with details. How do you think an argument would go? 

I think I need to show the W your good things bad things list. She would probably get a real chuckle out of that. Only difference maybe is that I could always communicate real well just not in way that made her ever feel better. 

I am really surprised the W didn't just totally give up on me. 

One important thing too, is that I never reached the "apathy" stage in our relationship. I always cared about how things were going or not going, hence the blow-ups. If I hadn't cared then...things might very well have turned out differently. Your H seems to be wavering right there. Some days he seems to care, some days he doesn't. I am not sure what to think about that. Very unpredictable unfortunately.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Funny thing is my daughter just told me tonite she thought daddy wanted to make it work because she saw him typing "marriage help" in his search box.....not sure if that is really what she saw.....but it would be awesome to know maybe he IS at least reading....truth is I do not know what he is doing during this time....he does not tell me...


Hmmmm. Maybe you should send him a link to TAM.. JK


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Stella I totally get your point --- and that is why I am being stronger than I have ever been and it is why I wrote in the email that we should do a 6 month reconciliation and see how it goes.
> 
> I cannot say for certain if his apathetic attitude at this point is because of things within him...or because of the hell I have put him through the last few years....
> 
> ...


That's my point. He does not tell you..._anything_

And you playing the relationship martyr here is not going to work. If 'you' change 'your ways' and such and tho....you guys have a chance....

You have any idea how much I tried this? My entire marriage...three years...as long as 'I' did things differently...or started this....or stopped that 'he' would be this way or that...or better...or fixed. 
It doesn't work. 

He needs to 'own' his shxt...'own' his lack of communication problem...by what your wanting to do...your enabling him to remain the same...therefore your cycle will continue...

It takes two...not just 'you'...


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

....has he taken responsibility for 'anything'???

....has he said he'd 'work on' anything?? 

And you won't resent him for this? Your going to make allll the changes...go to counseling and the world will be a better place? 

This is what I'm seeing your wanting to do. What I'm telling you,..is this is sugar coating...it won't last...it's like a honeymoon phase...

He's not working...he doesn't have too...you've given him zero expectations...
Not trying to be a downer...or hurt you...no no no....just telling you I wrote this book...lived it. 

You gonna do what you want...i had to also...but I'm tellin ya...HE NEEDS WORK...and unless he knows that and gets that with help especially in communication...he will be out the door again either by your frustrations...or his..


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

I see me in you...

Giving...and loving...but sacrificing myself to fix it.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> He's not working...he doesn't have too...you've given him zero expectations...
> Not trying to be a downer...or hurt you...no no no....just telling you I wrote this book...lived it.


I know it kind of seems this way - but there is a little more to the story - it took counseling to make me realize at one point he WAS trying and working at it- just in a way that I did NOT expect him too --- classic case of I expected him to show me he was different in a way I THOUGHT he should - but he was showing me in a way HE was able to....

So there was a long point in time in the not too distant past where he was really trying.....but because of my anger and lack of forgiveness we are where we are. In the process alienating him and making him feel worse than he already probably did....

I am in NO WAY going to put up with the way he is right now for a long term relationship - but I am trying to be understanding to the fact that I have really hurt him and made him feel like a piece of crap.....he did that to me ten years ago - I made him relive it for 10 years since....its more than a man should have to go through....

A lot of where we are is because of me - I am working on my issues, and feel better than I ever have. 

If he does decide to reconcile - then it is about rebuilding a stronger friendship and going from there.....my changes should impact him in a positive way and make him realize that I mean everything I have said in the last week....which in turn I hope will allow him to be a happier person and start to be the guy he was....

Are there things he needs to work on? Absolutely, but his issues are things I have learned to deal with for 21 years....and I understand him enough to make it all work....

I have no problem walking away if things do not change for the better....

But during mid-December and early January we were doing very well....why? Because I STOPPED my behaviors....when I stopped reliving the past over and over and stopped trying to have deep conversations about stuff, he warmed up to me and it became good again....but then I would open my mouth.....

I totally understand where you are coming from and totally respect what you have been through - but I know this is right for me.....I know my husband and what he responds to and I am just working with that......

Once he is home and we are getting along better - it would be MUCH easier for me to get him to respond positively to marriage counseling, while he is out of the house and pissed at me there is no chance in hell...

There are just so many elements to this....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Stella is correct about the long term. The H is going to have to move from his current position to make the M work long term. The effort to fix the M cannot be one-sided for too long because if he doesn't do anything you will most certainly start to resent it and it will eat away at any efforts to reconcile. You will wind up in this same place 6 months or more down the road. 

in the meantime..gotta get him to come home. You know you may not get your answer today.

When is the wedding?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I totally agree Tron - and if he comes home I will be patient. I need to prove that the past is the past and that I will not "attack" him all the time for answers about why he is the way he is with me.....I understand now why he is the way he is.....I have been a b****. I just never saw it until I spoke it all out in counseling....it was caused by the pain he inflicted - but 10 years is enough. Truth is I cannot believe he stayed as long as he did...

I do not expect an answer any time soon - unless he just says he does want a divorce - and I WILL be ok with that. 

I will not bring ANYTHING up again about our relationship, I said my final peace and am done. I am doing a soft 180 for the rest of the 30 days he asked for....either he will come home after the 30 days or not...if not I file and move on.

In the meantime I will be my fun loving self and go on with life...

I am in a good place - and have put a lot of thought into all of this so I can handle it in a way I feel is right for me and for us.....I have done all I can do.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Today was a day where I was feeling abnormally upset about everything. 

Then he just called me to see if I thought he should come home since there is a big storm coming.......I said if he thinks he should we would love to have him for comfort.....so he is on his way.....

Originally I has asked earlier in the week if he would come home tonite and he said no, he would be home early saturday like usual....so this makes me happy....


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Today was a day where I was feeling abnormally upset about everything.
> 
> Then he just called me to see if I thought he should come home since there is a big storm coming.......I said if he thinks he should we would love to have him for comfort.....so he is on his way.....
> 
> Originally I has asked earlier in the week if he would come home tonite and he said no, he would be home early saturday like usual....so this makes me happy....


Glad you are happy. Tell him you are. Show him you are glad he called and came home.

I am happy for you....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Today was a day where I was feeling abnormally upset about everything.
> 
> Then he just called me to see if I thought he should come home since there is a big storm coming.......I said if he thinks he should we would love to have him for comfort.....so he is on his way.....
> 
> Originally I has asked earlier in the week if he would come home tonite and he said no, he would be home early saturday like usual....so this makes me happy....



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Not going to get too excited...so far so good though....we are working on a home refinance so that is our topic of conversation for now....but it is an extra night of being together under "good" circumstances....I will take what I can get. He has made no mention of my email at all though....which I guess could be an OK sign since I did say straight out if you want a divorce tell me....

.......now if my mouth will listen to my head and keep shut we will be in good shape for a good weekend.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Go girl.

Positive messages to him about how you feel...Positive acts of kindness and love and compliments that make him feel appreciated, loved and respected.

If he gives you a hug or says something nice about you, say thanks i needed that, it makes me feel good, it makes me feel close to you....etc. Keep doing that.

And if he wants to complain about something from work or whatever you listen and when he is done you ask him if there is anything you can do to make him feel better about it, feel less stressed.

If he starts to complain about you then you KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, listen, DO NOT REACT, he has a grievance and wants to be heard (just like you do sometimes, right?)...play the mirror game with him, yeah i did that, it made you feel (insert emotion here), I get it, I screwed up, sorry, won't do it again...but in a sweet way. You aren't being a doormat, you are trying to mould this M into something that is built to last... It is going to be a challenge, especially for you. Are you up to the challenge? Treat it like a game. Remember the goal here is to change the way you both argue about things cause what you both have been doing hasn't been working, everybody leaves angry with unresolved hard feelings...and it goes nowhere good. It isn't about who is right, who is wrong, it is about how you guys feel. If what he is complaining about doesn't make sense to you then ask him to clarify. If it still doesn't make sense or he is just arguing for the sake of arguing, then say I don't think that is fair, but if it made you feel (insert emotion here) then I apologize and leave for a bit. Diffuse. Diffuse. Diffuse. Don't engage in tit for tat. As long as he is fighting fair, and everyone does their best to follow through with the promises, then this way of dealing with disagreements just doesn't leave much room for long term hard feelings. They get put behind you just that fast. And, I promise, over time it becomes second nature and is contagious...he will catch on and you guys will have a lot to feel good about.:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well I know he wont hug me, but I did hug him and then he put one arm around me and patted my back a few times....

I do not see us fighting at all so not worried about that.....

But I am know I am expecting too much to soon...and hate that I am trying to read every single thing he does and says.....

Even just now...I ordered dinner from a local place...he always gets something...tonite he did not....yeah, I took it personally.....this is hard.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Oh yeah, one more thing. I guess this refi thing he is working on has been going on for a while.

Have you thanked him for taking care of all that? Acknowledge it. You have spent a lot of years tearing him down...it's time to build him up. He brings good things to the table.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Well I know he wont hug me, but I did hug him and then he put one arm around me and patted my back a few times....
> 
> I do not see us fighting at all so not worried about that.....
> 
> ...



Don't expect anything right now. You are simply trying to show him that you have made some changes in you. And stop trying to read him, you are going to drive yourself bat$hit crazy. 

Why would you take that personally? Is he going somewhere later? Maybe he wants a share of yours, he had a big lunch, or he's trying to lose weight. Maybe you can use that as an opportunity to make him a sandwich later...OK maybe that's a little over the top, never mind.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Oh I absolutely did thank him...and also said if he needs me to handle anything to let m know.....I am on my bestest behavior.....what i need to do is stop trying to read him.......not sure how to turn that off....we are all sitting together just watcvhing the news....its nice....but I so want to lay with him....and know I cannot and it sucks....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Oh I absolutely did thank him...and also said if he needs me to handle anything to let m know.....I am on my bestest behavior.....what i need to do is stop trying to read him.......not sure how to turn that off....we are all sitting together just watcvhing the news....its nice....but I so want to lay with him....and know I cannot and it sucks....


Why not?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron you are too funny....no he is staying tonite...and there is no food in the house which is why I was suprised he did not get anything....this is one of the things I am working on in counseling....to stop taking every little thing personallly....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

If I try to lay with him he will tell me no...I know him well enough to know the limits.....I am really shocked he has not said a word about the email either...he is being frienldy enough but always says "dont get the wrong impression just trying to be nice"......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

What are his love languages?


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## bobby5 (Mar 21, 2011)

He gave a timetable because he is entering a new a frightening change in his life which means moving home and being away from his wife and daughter and possibly not being able to get back if you change your mind. So the time scale is in his head. Get it out of yours and let him know that IF and only IF you do manage to work things out it may be a lot longer than 30 days. He knows how you feel so fight the need to continue explaining yourself. I cant stress the importance of this. You will come across as nedy and desperate and therefore less attractive. I know your marraige and child are more important than your pride and attractiveness may seem a trivial issue at this stage but he is human and he is a man and no matter how deep a person he is he has a sub conscious which works independent of his rational mind. So you are going to be strong, supportive and polite. You are going to look at your own life and find something you want to do and never did. Something independent of your husband and daughter and not involving relationships or other men. Go and have some innocent fun. Continue with the counselling. See this as an opportunity for you to decide what you want and dont tell him you forgive if you cant. If you cant dont panic. Maybe you will in time. Forget the 30 days. Dont be needy. Dont panic. Dont have a rebound and dont allow yourself to be upset around him . I rekon you will be fine if you dont make him think he can do better elsewhere with a less needy person and if you decide you really want him and can in reality forgive him truthfully and if he deserves it. Sounds like a lot of if's but from the story you tell it looks like the only worrying if is if you can be cool and stop being panicked or needy even if things start to get worse for a while. I know this stuff cause I did all the wrong things and begged and panicked and couldnt restrain myself from phoning and texting and emailing. I honestly believe I would live with my ex and our children now only for that. I am now doing and not doing the things as i should have and things are getting better but it will take longer now if it works at all because of my panic times (; good luck.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> What are his love languages?


That is one book I have not read yet! Truth is we have alienated each other so much I am not even sure I could answer that anymore.... :-(


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Forget the 30 days. Dont be needy. Dont panic. Dont have a rebound and dont allow yourself to be upset around him


Well the 30 days is critical for me....truth is if he does not come back home after the 30 I am done....I am not going to live a life of limbo.....and there is a part of me that feels that this should not be that hard of a decision..for the most part we get along great....so either you want to come home and work with me on it or you do not......if you are "not sure" what you want then it is time for me to move on......there is a historical reason I am doing this.....so please understand that there IS more to this than what is posted here that have affected my decision....

I am not at all panicked and am actually in a great mood...so that is all that he is seeing right now. I am in a much better place than I have been.....

Do I want this to work - maybe (sometimes I see the ugly side of him when he is here and it makes me wonder)......but like others have said...I need to see that he has changed too....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

I second guess everything my H does as well. But yesterday he laid it all, he's got a lawyer and we are done. So be thankful you have made it this far. Your letter was fantastic btw, very non emotional and to the point. 
I envy you and see a lot of hope in your situation. 

We have a big storm coming in tonight as well (where do you live?) And the only thing H said was call if there's an emergency and hed come plow the driveway late tomorrow night. He's staying with posow while me and D brace for the storm alone. Pretty sad. Your husband may be effed up a bit but at least he's there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Forget the 30 days. Dont be needy. Dont panic. Dont have a rebound and dont allow yourself to be upset around him


Don't be needy. You are doing ok. Soft 180 baby. 

Don't panic. That is sooooo last week 

Don't have a rebound.. No problem there.

Don't allow yourself to be upset around him...OK this one is tough..maybe you should sit down and pull out 5 Love Languages in front of him and give him something to really think about. He'll probably think your fixin' to use a Jedi mind trick on him.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Well the 30 days is critical for me....truth is if he does not come back home after the 30 I am done....I am not going to live a life of limbo.....and there is a part of me that feels that this should not be that hard of a decision..for the most part we get along great....so either you want to come home and work with me on it or you do not......if you are "not sure" what you want then it is time for me to move on.....


remember - you asked him to leave.

I've been out of the house just over a month now, and as much as I'd like to, I would not move back in w my W w/o some conditions that she would find very hard to accept.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

familyfirst that SUCKS what an ass. You are really so better off without him. I am thankful he is here and him offering was a pleasant surprise. 
I am sorry you have to deal with this alone.....:-(

Tron I am SOOOO not a rebound kind of girl....absolutely no issues there...I will take a look at the love languages site.....I am nt even sure he would notice if I pulled out a book - although I do have divorce remedy...hmmmm


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

old timer -- i know...and I do not regret asking at all.....it has been wonderful for me and has given me so much clarity about my life and what I want and what I will accept in my life. I would have never gone into counseling with him here.....

I have otold him what changes I will make should he come home...and that I hope those changes will affect his being in a positive way....I am just not clear if his attitude in recent years are because of me....or him in general...but only one way to find out...him coming home../


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> familyfirst that SUCKS what an ass. You are really so better off without him. I am thankful he is here and him offering was a pleasant surprise.
> I am sorry you have to deal with this alone.....:-(
> 
> Tron I am SOOOO not a rebound kind of girl....absolutely no issues there...I will take a look at the love languages site.....I am nt even sure he would notice if I pulled out a book - although I do have divorce remedy...hmmmm


Divorce Remedy...That will do! Jedi mind trick. And if he resists...throw it at him  

Remember after last weekend he said he wasn't staying the night anymore...well here he is at home again. Have a little faith. Enjoy the evening, try to enjoy his company, keep it lite and stay occupied!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Tron.....voice of reason.....


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

You are in my thoughts woman...and I'm wanting this for you...and I hope he does hold you and lay with ya  ...physical affection from the one your trying to reconcile with and try with is important. 

I want him to show his heart is in it...I'm protective over you and want you happy...hate to hafta come kick his azz


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

About the food thing...pizza delivery? Chinese??


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> .physical affection from the one your trying to reconcile with and try with is important.
> 
> I want him to show his heart is in it...I'm protective over you and want you happy...hate to hafta come kick his azz


My kinda gal
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Stella - much apprecaited.....and it was ITalian... 

Nothing from him on the emotional level....and I just do not want to make the first move since I do not want the rejection.....I think he knows how I feel and that I would welcome something physical from him....I just do not think he is there yet.....and I am not pushing it...

I DO NOT have high hopes for this.....I know he was trying to do the right thing by being here....but I just do not feel his heart is here at all....really starting to think there is nothing left inside of him.....

...but my mouth has remained shut.....last night was nice...today will be filled with shoveling and hoping he will let me come with him and D to go sleigh riding.....

I am not sure if he is even staying again tonite....

I just wish I could get him to be silly goody with me again like he was even just a few weeks ago - his guard is clearly up.... :-(


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I want him to show his heart is in it...I'm protective over you and want you happy...hate to hafta come kick his azz


I LOVE this!  And I will have you come kick his azz if it comes that point....

We spent the morning shoveling and cleaning up outside....we then did have a small snowball fight...at first he was kind of ignoring me...but then he started throwing them at me too --- got me really good with a huge one right in the face...ouch...

But it was fun....still nothing more than thought - but at least he paid some attention to me....off to sleigh riding later.....

Not sure if he is staying tonite or not though..... :-(


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

A snowball fight huh? Makes me smile...

Yea just stay light hearted as you are ...let him decide if he wants to stay another night and if he doesn't...just say nothing...keep smiling...show him you COMPLETELY respect it...and let him go home when it's time. 

I'm glad your having fun tho...even tho it's a bit intense not knowing where his head is at...I'd hate that too but your doing what you gotta do. Like I always say...we do what we gotta do until we just can't do it anymore ...and your trying. I've said my peace about what I think you deserve but I'm sure going to be here for you and support you in your decisions because that's what friends do  
He's a fool if he doesn't grab on...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

aww thanks so much stella! 

We just got back from a great afternoon of sledding with some friends....it was awesome. Now it is important to know that in the past I would let him take her....I honestly hate the snow and never participated - I asked him if I could come with them and I think he was in shock but he said sure if you want....but I really had a great time today....he and i even shared a tube for a ride down the mountain and crashed....

I believe he is staying tonite since he told our D that he would take her again tomorrow if she wanted....but he did make a comment about "forgetting to bring his laundry" so I know he will be leaving tomorrow night....but I am OK with that....it was a good weekend and I like knwoing he is leaving on a great note....and next weekend we have a nite alone since we have a wedding to go to...and he has been wonderfully happy today...the guy I know and love....

Again, still keeping my hopes down at this point to avoid disappointment but am just enjoying the time we have together as a family....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

...NM


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

hmmm he is leaving tonight....damn... :-(


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

i went upstairs for a bit to watch TV and he came up a short time later and asked what was wrong...I said nothing I am just watching tv (yeah I was lying).....he said it seemed like I was mad at him I said absolutely not. He said I came up after he said he was leaving....I said "yes, I was a bit upset since you usuallys tay on Saturdays....and it was great having you here today - we had such a good day. It is hard when you leave and you are missed - and I sometimes just wish you would feel comfortable enough to talk to me....."

He said "i read the letter and you said you did not need me to respond - but I will talk when I am ready - and I am making D dinner do you want anything..."

I just said " That is fine, i am not asking you to talk to me right now, I am good and know you will talk when the time is right, it is just lonely here without you and I just wish we had fixed things long ago - I will be down when the show is over and no thanks I am not hungry".

I came down when the show was over - we had a llittle chit chat - a quick hug (me first as always) and he just left. He will be back in the morning --- I made sure to say have a good night....

I did tell him I have to go dress shopping tomorrow for the wedding we have next week - he said OK. So at least I know we are still on for that....he also assured me there is no one else and that he is really taking this time for him.....I do believe him 100%. I thanked him for that and assured him it is the same here....

I am conflicted.......today was so awesome, and makes me want to make this work. It is hard to have days like this and think we still might not make it. I almost like it better when he is cranky - makes it so much easier to accept everything.

But he did read the email and did state right in it if you want a divorce just TELL ME. 

.......so I have some hope that he is really on the fence......but he is still being so standoffish.....

But I guess that is normal?!?!?! I knnow he is skeptical about how "happy" I seem.......and the funny thing is I just am.....not faking a thing.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

:woohoo:
:woohoo:

I took it down a while ago...back up now. 

Even if you aren't up for it, go down, grab a little bite, tell him how good it is, and settle in for a job well done. You did great today!!!


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

He's absorbing. 

He's goin' home to relax and absorb...sledding is tiresome...and he had a good couple of days...

Have a glass of wine and bask in that...don't read into anything...don't text him...nothing...and when he comes tomorrow...be happy..smilin' ...looking good and excited! Happy voice! ....let him be...let him know you able to just let him be... 

He's absorbing


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

He did not eat either...it was just for the kid....we were both ABSOLUTELY exhausted.....that is why I was surprised he left. It is a long drive.

Thanks Stella....I am just going with the flow.....like i have said before I am already all geared up for no reconciliation....so if it should happen it will just be that much better.....but today was REALLY good...probably one of the best days we have had together in a LONG time....and this is with having "tension" between us.....

I just hope you are right and he is absorbing...and hope he feels it was a good day too.....It did make me feel better that he did come upstairs to check on me.....that has to say something....

I think his concern is the lack of feeling like he is "in love"....the we are good friends thing is a big issue with him.....and I am not sure he is convinced we can get that extra level back......so that is going to be more of the challenge....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and thank you guys for letting me vent....and share....and learn....the support and advice have been unbelievably helpful!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Just hang in there. You are doing fine.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

And keep venting here and not at him or to him.

I think it was good that he made it clear he is using this time only for him. And your clarification to him was good communication.

Good for you.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Workingatit,

I am proud of you, you did good today. Stella is right, he is definitely absorbing. 

I know your tired, but I am going to push you to do one more thing tonight before you hit the rack. I think it would be good for you to do a quick recap of today. What did you learn? BTW, I learned a couple things about you and H tonight...

Please go make a list of all the nice things your H did, said or offered for you or your daughter that might represent a way to connect with you or her on a more than a superficial level. Did he touch you, your D, help you...anything. Then think about what, if anything made him smile, made him happy, got a favorable response, etc. and write it down.

I suspect that you are going to see a pretty consistent pattern from him. 

BTW, don't kid yourself, he knows why you always go to your room. He knows, and he came to you to talk and offered to escort you out. Next time you take him up on it. This is no time for tit for tat. He hurt you yesterday, so you hurt him today. Not saying you did that mind you, but if you did, you have got to stop that $hit and give him a chance.

In my opinion, your H is trying and I bet money has been trying very hard for a long long time to connect with you. You just haven't been receptive either because of the forgiveness issues or simply because the things he is trying just aren't that important to you. I also suspect that because of this, when he tries something positive that he hopes will please you, you just don't see it as being very important or significant and you consequently don't respond with the "thank yous" and "attaboys" that he needs to feel like he is a success with you. You remember the money he gave you to start your business? I think there is a lot more than just that. And note that when he never gets any positive feedback from you, there is no place to go but to just get frustrated, give up and feel like a failure. He simply doesn't know what else to do.

You need to go read 5LL stat! And when you finish, you need to give him the book with your answered quiz. That is going to be his roadmap to you. 

And, if you get the chance sometime down the road, you need to try and figure out a way to acknowledge all the things he has tried to do for you over the years that you just dismissed. I suspect that list is quite long.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Tron said:


> Workingatit,
> 
> I am proud of you, you did good today. Stella is right, he is definitely absorbing.
> 
> ...


They tubed down a hill together and crashed...I know that! Lol!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Stella,

i have no idea what that's like. No hills and no snow down here. It sounds like a lot of work though. Just curious, how do you get back up the hill for another ride? 

Btw, we were out in shorts, t-shirts and flip-flops today. And when we go tubing, we just float down a river and drink beer. At the end of the day we are either sunburned or drunk...or both:smthumbup:


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron I think you are 100% right - and yoru feedback has so inciteful and helpful. It is funny because I really did go upstairs to watch TMZ (LOVE that show) - it just happened to coincide with him saying he would be back "tomorrow". 

And after crashing in the tube....and me rolling down the hill he did actually come over and make sure I am OK....that made me feel good...

I am trying to be aware of the thank you's and things....although admittedly I may not be as good as I would like right now because my expectations are these are things he should be doing.....(snowblowing, cleaning etc) - but I KNOW that is wrong thinking.....and I know in our fragile state a thank you would make a huge difference...and I will make a better effort today....I need to even thank him for handling the snow yesterday....I never thought I took him for granted....I always said he took me for granted.....clearly I was always just as guilty and never realized it.....

This whole thing has been such a wake up call.....allI know is I want my life to be like yesterday - just add in some sex and it would have been PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We do tubing down the river here too in the summer...havenot been in ages...but beer and tubes go great togeterh!!!! Love the snow too though.....so pretty right now!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for keeping my head in check.....it is such a help!!!

Let's see what today brings....although I will be out looking for a drop dead gorgeous dress for this wedding!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

ANd Tron you are so right about the fact he probably tried in so many ways - but not ways I acknowledged --- the counselor told me that early on. That he may be showing me things to show he cares in HIS way but yet I am waiting on him to show me in a way I EXPECT him to....HUGE HUGE HUGE downfall.....I am starting to open my eyes a litlle more to that....even the fact he came upstairs to ask if I wanted some dinner....that was a small "reach" for him...I am not expecting much at this point from him....but will be sure to acknowledge those small things...today he said give him a list and he will go shopping...I WILL thank him for that....I will look harder......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and so he walks in...i say good morning - he says hi...then says is D still sleeping - I say yep she was exhausted....he just says I should have called first, I would not have come so early if I knew she was sleeping...

That made me feel great....and he seems to be in a crappy mood to boot....reminds me why I am on the fence with this whole thing...this is the guy I DO NOT like.....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Do you think maybe he's looking for an affirmation of some sort. Like for you to say something like "no its good you're here early, gives us some alone time"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I did not think of that....but I am afraid to even say something like that for fear of him thinking it is "too pushy" - I do not think he even wants time alone with me....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

If he didn't...wouldn't he have called first before coming over?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

no...he does not think like that...our D is an early bird.....so he just assumed she was up....he is cranky as hell today....this is why I think he is depressed...one day he is awesome...the next day he is miserable...or acts as such....today I do not even want to be married to him...


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Oh. Just keep those thoughts and feelings to yourself tho, remember he's in limbo as well. There will be many days ahead like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Trust me tongue is bit...I asked if anything was wrong he said no and I let it go....we talked about work for a few minutes and then he took our D to breakfast....I am going shopping....so he will have some time alone with her.....I am just going on my day being happy.....I so wish I could know what goes through his head though....


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Oh I know that feeling. I live every day not knowing what H is thinking or feeling. To this day, I still do not know why he truly thinks there is no chance for R with us. He's never told me. I think that is the worst part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...and so he walks in...i say good morning - he says hi...then says is D still sleeping - I say yep she was exhausted....he just says I should have called first, I would not have come so early if I knew she was sleeping...
> 
> That made me feel great....and he seems to be in a crappy mood to boot....reminds me why I am on the fence with this whole thing...this is the guy I DO NOT like.....


"Care for a Bloody Mary while we wait?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

old timer said:


> "Care for a Bloody Mary while we wait?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I had thougt he was in a better mood I would have tried a witty comeback....just did not feel it was the right time....when he is like this I tread carefully and do nit know how to act....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Aha! You're letting his mood dictate your mood. 

Unacceptable, IMO. 

Resolve every day to be happy and comfortable in your skin, regardless of anyone else's mood. The more you do it, the easier it becomes - to the point that you eventually don't have to consciously "will" yourself to do it anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You're letting his mood dictate your mood.


Not at all! I left the house in a great mood - and was in a great mood here. I have never let his bad moods get me down....I just avoid him becuase I do not know how to act around him...

But for some reason I just had a total meltdown (by myself)...I just got home and just want to cry like hell....this came on out of no where.....

I think having such a great day yesterday made me realize just how much I miss him.......

......OK...they are outside so I need to go have a good cry while I am alone......I have been doing so dam n good too....

I am not sure I can do this anymore...divorce and knowing what comes next seems so much easier to me.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...as soon as i got done making this post...I realized how stupid I was being....put on my big girl panties and went outside with them and had another kick arse snowball fight. Is it sad that I like when he was trying to get me because it felt like positive attention?

And ...... I took my coat off because I was sweating...and he got me with a huge pile of snow....and all I had on was a white tank top....white tank top+ lace bra+ soaking wet = need I say more?!?!?!? 

But I am feeling pretty sure when he leaves I will have my breakdown..... :-(


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...as soon as i got done making this post...I realized how stupid I was being....put on my big girl panties and went outside with them and had another kick arse snowball fight. Is it sad that I like when he was trying to get me because it felt like positive attention?
> 
> And ...... I took my coat off because I was sweating...and he got me with a huge pile of snow....and all I had on was a white tank top....white tank top+ lace bra+ soaking wet = need I say more?!?!?!?
> 
> But I am feeling pretty sure when he leaves I will have my breakdown..... :-(



A breakdown when he is not here is ok.

I just hope you gave him a flash of the wet, white tank top so he knows what he is missing tonight.....


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

break downs are going to happen...it's ok...go with them. your doing great yanno...

he's been there a lot this weekend...he may be moody cos he's overwhelmed as well. just keep things light...no heavy conversation...no neediness...let him do his thing...

seriously...it's cool you gathered yourself and went outside...and thanks for the visual with the wet tank and lace bra...*ahem... numeh for him... >


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...as soon as i got done making this post...I realized how stupid I was being....put on my big girl panties and went outside with them and had another kick arse snowball fight. Is it sad that I like when he was trying to get me because it felt like positive attention?


Well done.



workingatit said:


> And ...... I took my coat off because I was sweating...and he got me with a huge pile of snow....and all I had on was a white tank top....white tank top+ lace bra+ soaking wet = need I say more?!?!?!?


Pics or it didn't happen!!! 



workingatit said:


> But I am feeling pretty sure when he leaves I will have my breakdown..... :-(


This stuff is hard. You are allowed to feel hurt sometimes. Just remember that good things are worth fighting for.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

He just left - he came up to talk to me first. 

Before he said a word I hugged him - then he asked how my boobs were doing. I told him fine....then I tried to rub his chest...he said you do not have to, but he did not stop me. Then he starts in with "I am sure you are already hooking up with other guys" - and I HATE HATE HATE when he does that since I have NEVER since the day I met him even wanted anyone else - and I reminded him nicely of that fact.

He said "I guess you are waiting for answer or something" - I said no not at all, I figured you would talk when you are ready. I said "if you want a divorce though, I would prefer you just tell me know so I can move on though...."

He said "I figured you wanted out of this marriage years ago"....I asked him what made him say that...he said because of the way I made him feel like **** all the time and how I continued to make him feel guilty all the time.

:-(

I said that is so not what my intention ever was - reminded him that these are issues I am dealing with and will continue to work on with the counseling and that I HAVE forgiven him and it will be put behind us. (He of course does not believe that).

He told me about a book he read about guilt and how I was the perfect example of how people "use guilt as a weapon"....how I would say "how could you do this to me after all I have done for you" - and he clearly stated that I have "forced him" to stay in this marriage becaues of that guilt.....

That hurt.......so I do not know if that is true or not - that he feels forced to be here.....

I clarified that was NEVER my intention....

I tried to remind him of a great day we had back in November, the night out in December and then this weekend and how much fun we had together - and said I am responsible for not having more days like that....I said I cannot even remember the last time I went sleigh riding with them...he said "seems like never - you never wanted to do anything with me" ---

He is right..... :-(

I tried to tell him that I am changing and that I am growing and that I am sorry...I did not break down and cry - just a few tears......

He said let me go so this does not turn into a fight....I said OK. He said he would be back Wednesday.

So....my concerns now are that he does not want this to work and he feels "forced to do so" - but on the other hand, he could have said yes, I want a divorce and did not?

What do I do with all of this?

He clearly does not believe I can or will change....and yet, I already have.

One of the things he said that drives him NUTS is that I say I am going to do something and I do not do it. (Painting the bedroom, planting flowers, taking our D somewhere) - and yes, I have not been as reliable with those types of things...with as miserable and angry as I have been I have just not had much motivation to do antyhing....

This is a BIG issue with him.....one that will take a long time for him to see changes with but I am not sure he will put in that time.....

I just do not see much hope for this working......


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i just started reading your thread workingatit (earlier post i read working at it not working a tit  ) im sorry for what your going through but i believe your handling it really well. it is a roller coaster but do what you are doing hang in there but prepare for that worst.

i really think you guys have a good chance to reconcile, but the thing that bothered me is when he just said i bet you already hooking up with other guys, he said that to hurt you. i wish you woulda stepped back and told him no and that hurt that he would even say that.

you are doing aswome way better than i did during my break up/divorce 8 years ago. hang in there im pulling for YOU either way you go.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks terrence...oh I absolutely did say it hurt----he has done that often over our entire relationship, I think it was always part of his insecurity or lack of confidence.....I have never even so much as looked at another man.....I love my husband - faults and all, my commitment has 100% to him and always will be until the divorce is done.

I think now he says it because I think sometimes he wants me to cheat to make his own guilt go away.....

But I work from home too so he always says how easy it would be for me blah blah blah (keep in mind we have video cameras all over the place...it would NOT be that easy!).....

But when he acts like he did tonite I question if staying together is right.....everything I said he still said the opposite of -- he still believes nothing I say and whenever I state a fact he does not accept it as my true feelings....

I am worried that it will ALWAYS be that way - and I IWLL NOT live like that.....

I am more confused right now than ever......


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i can't blame you for being confused. really im a guy and what you put down here i have no idea what is going on in his head. you have gave him no reason not to believe you! i could be way way wrong here but 1 option is maybe he is trying to push you away now so you file for divorce to make you look like you gave up (just my .02 cents)

the main thing worry about beautiful daughter and YOURSELF first and nothing else right now. you have admitted your mistakes and ARE working on change. big big :smthumbup: hang in there to best you can but do whats right for YOU


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Ter! That is honestly what I am doing...I try to go day to day as if he is never coming home. I understand about the not believing...if you read back a few pages there is an area that does talk about some things I did "hide" from him for lack of a better word...I did not lie once he asked me, but I did keep it from him and should not have....but I still struggle with the fact he could cheat and blatantly lie about it and that is OK, but I just do not tell him something about a business finance and that is a travesty....it is the one thing I still get angry about to be honest....but am working on it....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i divorced my wife when she cheated on me and left me for her now husband (8 years ago) and if i think about it i still get mad and im remarried 6 years. but it does get easier to get over.

you are a strong woman and you will be fine either way it goes. i just hope you get to where you are going soon.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Working

Trust takes time.

If he is willing to give you the time then you have to be willing to do the work.

I do not think he is ready to throw in the towel.

Just keep re- affirming that you are making permanent changes. That rebuilding the relationship is your goal. 

Be patient and continue to communicate.

You know your issues so keep working on them.

I think you did great this weekend.

HM64


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> he got me with a huge pile of snow....and all I had on was a white tank top....white tank top+ lace bra+ soaking wet = need I say more?!?!?!?


No, but you can PM me a picture. ]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

You have a real open talk about how you are both hurt and you think it is a bad thing?

He has a decade of pain built up. He is starting to talk about it which is the first step in dealing with it and you are worried it isn't all gone yet.

He alternates between warm and distant, then says something like "I bet you are hooking up with other guys." and you are not seeing how insecure and hurting he must be. Evn though you are on the exact same roller coaster....each time you guys have a bad episode you start to think about giving up.

Girl, there is so much good stuff happening here. You just need to keep going and be patient. 

Oh, and you still need to post the T shirt pics!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Oh, and you still need to post the T shirt pics!


Yup
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

You guys are awesome! And I wish I had a pic to post - but he clearly noticed how cold I was....  



> He alternates between warm and distant, then says something like "I bet you are hooking up with other guys." and you are not seeing how insecure and hurting he must be.


I guess I never see him as hurting.....that is part of my problem. When we fight or argue - or even have a discussion like we did today, he acts like such an arrogant a**....so it is hard for me to imagine that any of this is bothering him. But you are right, I need to give him some more patience....when he said he thought I checked out years ago, it kind of blew my mind.....

The 3 other things he said/did yesterday that still hurt are also:

1) I thanked him for coming this weekend to help with the snow and his response was something to the effect of "I would not leave you stranded and I still have a responsibility to our D"...

2) I hugged him right before the conversation - he did not hug back at all....usually I least get a pat on the back...this time nothing..... :-( I thought after a great weekend a hug would be a good thing...but I felt like an idiot.....now I do not want to hug him at all again and am not sure whether I even should...

3) When the conversation of me being with someone else came up - which hurt in itself - he made sure to add "Not that it would bother me if you were with soemone else, I do not care"

Why would anyone say that if they cared at all? I would ABSOLUTELY care if he was with someone else right now...

Even if he is hurting - why would you purposely say 2 things to try and hurt me so much....

So I do not know if those are his true feelings, if he is trying to push my buttons to "test" my reaction (in the past I may have attacked...) - or if he is just being an a** and trying to hurt me because he is hurting.....

....and final question.....is it OK or do you think it will help to send a "good morning" text at the point we are at or do I stick with the soft 180 and not contact him?!?!!? I am so confused how to move forward in a POSITIVE way with him.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> You guys are awesome! And I wish I had a pic to post - but he clearly noticed how cold I was....
> 
> I guess I never see him as hurting.....that is part of my problem. When we fight or argue - or even have a discussion like we did today, he acts like such an arrogant a**....so it is hard for me to imagine that any of this is bothering him. But you are right, I need to give him some more patience....when he said he thought I checked out years ago, it kind of blew my mind.....
> 
> ...


Hey WAI, you are not getting men. We act tough, we act like we don't care. It is an act.

Based on what you have posted, I have absolutely no doubt that he wants you but is conflicted. What I don't know is why he is conflicted and that could be good or bad news.

Like I said, you should half get that. Read your thread back. When things go well you want him, when they go bad you want divorce. Why such a roller-coaster? 

As for the 180. Well, I am biased, I think the 180 is a useful idea in some circumstances, is pretty much promoted as a universal panacea in TAM, often by people who seem to have widely different ideas of what it means. But, in as much as the 180 is about detaching to protect yourself, it is a spectacularly bad idea for you if you are seriously considering reconciliation.

My suggestion is, say what you think, but don't be clingy or needy. And I think a simple good morning text is totally appropriate.

Stop over thinking it. Define some boundaries that guide your communication, and stick to them. 

Now, your point (2) struck me because I did the same to my wife after her affair. So I read it to her and asked her what she thought. She is not on TAM and has no wish to be. But congratulations that she gave me a response. I apologise in advance that this is pretty direct, I am not going to change her words in case I distort her message while softening it.

First she smiled with that "Just like you" look.

She said "It's not unreasonable for another person to put up barriers if they are living on a roller coaster. The affair was wrong. But you look at it and say, do you want to make it work? If so, get down to the business of making it work and stop playing stupid games. Making it work means pain, and sacrifice and vulnerability and fabulous times and amazing times....."

Key point of her reply - it isn't about whether it will work out of it's own accord...it's about whether you want to make it work. "It's not about I treat him like sh1t and then he has to hug me anyway because I want attention. How is he meant to read that?"

Hope this helps. It is very good advice, though had she said it to you directly she would no doubt have softened the words. Hope it is ok for me to pass it on as is.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Like I said, you should half get that. Read your thread back. When things go well you want him, when they go bad you want divorce. Why such a roller-coaster?


Because I do not want it to be the way it WAS....I want it to be better - but I cannot control HIS actions.....I see what you are saying though - his feelings are EXACTLY the same....



> We act tough, we act like we don't care. It is an act.


I struggle comprehending this I guess - it seems counter productive and if this is the case, then it is just showing me he does not care....I am being thick and dumb on this one....

and THANK YOU for asking your wife.....



> It's not about I treat him like sh1t and then he has to hug me anyway because I want attention. How is he meant to read that


I guess my hope was that he would WANT to hug me after a good weekend together....last weekend he hugged me back and grabbed my butt....then a few hugs were with pats on the back and now nothing....feels like we are going backwards almost....

I did text him this morning....a simple "Thanks for a great weekend we both had so much fun, have a great day..."

no response....... :-(


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Like Terr, when I read your posts last night I just wasn't sure what to think, except that it was just so...sad. I stewed on it until this morning and asked Mrs Tron to read it and give me her thoughts. 

We agree with Wazza and Mrs. Wazza. These reactions and attitude you see from him are about pain and trust, plain and simple. And specifically not so much trust about whether you are out cheating or whether you lied to him about some financial matter, it is about trust in the marriage, your relationship and your commitment to him. And, rest assured he cares VERY MUCH about whether you are out looking for another man…you need to reassure him and continue to reassure him on occasion that he is the man you want and that you are not interested in anyone else. 

The statement about other men and him not giving you hugs is simply self preservation. It is a wall he is putting up and you should already know this. He is not purposefully trying to be mean to you. He is trying to protect himself. I also think we are starting to see a pattern. He goes home happy one day from spending all day with you and comes back the next day or several hours later moody and grumpy. Pure self preservation. He has had time to reflect on the day, what happened, on how good it felt; and then he starts to think about whether it was real, whether he is being manipulated (by guilt or whatever) and also about fear. Fear that if he gets sucked in again, he is signing on for more pain down the road. Stop reading his lack of response, or insensitive remarks as a rejection of you, it is him protecting himself. 

The W and I have had trust issues for a very long time. You already know why she doesn’t trust me. But I have trust issues with her and struggle with getting her to understand where that mistrust comes from. She always says, "you have nothing to mistrust me about, I didn't cheat on you." That is true, but to me it goes deeper than just that. It goes back to the vows she made to me when we got married. And really I guess the best analogy I can come up with to try and explain it is that in a committed, connected and intimate relationship a man hands the keys to his heart to his wife. If that wife abuses, ignores, mistreats, rejects, whatever, then that trust that he placed in her breaks down over time. And you wonder if you gave the keys to the right person. In spite of how men look or act on the outside, what is on the inside is still fragile and you did not handle his heart very well the first time around. H is understandably wary about handing those keys back to you. 

I understand that you come here to vent and that is good. We are here for you. Like Wazza, I don’t think H has thrown in the towel and I too am concerned about the way you waver from day-to-day or hour-to-hour about whether you want to stay with this man in this M. Your thoughts are not 100% encouraging because I think that maybe you believe that everything is going to automatically be ok when or if he comes home. It will not, I assure you. I realize you are on a roller coaster right now and that you don’t want to be there. But you are also getting a taste of what you have to look forward to over the next several months if you and H decide you want to stick it out. Are you 100% committed to doing what it takes to get your marriage back on track and would H honestly be smart at this stage to hand those keys back over to you. Are you going to fold when things get really tough? I can't say, can you? What do you think your H would say?

I also agree with Wazza in that I don't believe H has thrown in the towel. Your comment this weekend about a personal 30 day deadline for you is distressing to me though. 30 days didn’t get you into this mess and you aren’t going to get out of it in 30 days. Oldtimer has stressed this to you numerous times over the past couple of weeks. What you guys have to rebuild is going to take months. If you decide to work on it and commit to it you can expect some pretty amazing stuff, some memories that will be better than you can ever remember. On the flip side there are going to be days where you feel completely broken and wish the pain and H would just go away. As Wazza said this is what is required to deal with and work through all the hurt and pain you have caused each other over the years. If or when he comes home, you guys will be together every night again and there will be days where he says something that just feels like he put a bullet through your heart and you say to yourself "I have been working so hard and he just doesn’t give a $hit or notice how things are different." He will feel that way some days too, because inevitably you will say or do something similar. Are you ready for that? Are you resolved to work through it?

For me, I decided early on that this was my family and she was the one I wanted to be with forever, and I was committed to doing everything I had to do to make it work. Failure was not an option...saying that, I completely broke down about 1 year into the process, I sat on the floor of my shower for an hour and a half and cried because my spirit was just broken and felt that I just couldn't go on any more. I went to bed and woke up the next day and came back for more. Are you prepared for that and is he worth it to you? So far, for me it has definitely been worth it. But there are still days every so often where I am just tired and wonder if it is really supposed to be this difficult. Then there are days like yesterday where we were together so much and connected so well that by the end of the day she had chapped lips from kissing me so much. Yesterday was a great day!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

TRON!!!!!!! you had me worried! I was waiting all day to hear from you!!! 



> Your comment this weekend about a personal 30 day deadline for you is distressing to me though. 30 days didn’t get you into this mess and you aren’t going to get out of it in 30 days. Oldtimer has stressed this to you numerous times over the past couple of weeks. What you guys have to rebuild is going to take months.


You and old timer are right, and I did have a call today with my marriage counselor who also said the same about the deadline. I AM conflicted - or WAS conflicted....but you have nailed my issues for me. My concern is that he will keep this in limbo for ages and that I am not sure I can deal with. 

I am not giving it "30 days" so to speak anymore....but I DO WANT him to tell me straight out when he has made the decision he just wants a divorce, which I have given him the opportunity to do 2x now - and both times he did not respond. Being he had said last year he wanted a divorce straight out - my concern has been that he is keeping me "in limbo" for his own personal needs.....and that I won't tolerate. But if he is vested at least in some way to saving this then I can offer more patience......



> The statement about other men and him not giving you hugs is simply self preservation. It is a wall he is putting up and you should already know this.


I think in some way I did consider this....but it still hurts horribly. But I do understand he is confused - but having you clarify this has helped greatly.


> I realize you are on a roller coaster right now and that you don’t want to be there. But you are also getting a taste of what you have to look forward to over the next several months if you and H decide you want to stick it out. Are you 100% committed to doing what it takes to get your marriage back on track and would H honestly be smart at this stage to hand those keys back over to you or are you going to fold when things get really tough?


I have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with being 100% committed to working at this with everything I have. I have been with this man for 21 years, he is my heart and soul and I love him with all I have - but my concern is not knowing if HE IS 100% committed.

Right now I am doing everything to keep this together....and it is hard to not get anything in return...yes, he is responsive when I reach out - but it would be nice for him to show me SOMETHING in return that shows he cares, right now I do not feel like I get anything - I guess you are all saying that is part of the process but it is hard....and I think what is forgotten sometimes is that all of this did start because of the hurt and pain inflicted on me....so my natural response was to make him understand that pain...albeit I did it wrong....

My last week has been conflicted in whether I want this or not only because of his moodiness which I just cannot understand....but what you have said below really does make sense.....I guess him seeing me in this new light is incredibly scary and he lacks the trust that it is a "real" change....I guess my expectations are unrealistic of him seeing these changes are real so quickly.....



> On the flip side there are going to be days where you feel completely broken and wish the pain and H would just go away. As Wazza said this is what is required to deal with and work through all the hurt and pain you have caused each other over the years.


...and I will be fine with this.....at least now I know much better how to handle these types of situations and have learned so much about myself to be able to address these in a way that will NOT cause me to go into a psycho nagging B***

I do realize the years of damage that have been done by both of us......and I guess there is just a part of me that almost wants to say lets make believe the past did not happen and move on....but I know how impossible that is....

I guess I am still looking for him to show me he cares about "us" in a way I WANT TO SEE IT.....I do tell myself that he does show my even by talking to me....and texting me.....and going shopping when he is here....I do try to remember those things....

I guess I just feel so much lighter and happier these days ....and that makes me just want it to all be better.....

I guess I just want a hug FROM him...or a text FROM him...first.....seems so simple....but I guess I am being unfair to him......

You guys said this was hard - I never imagined.......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Stop reading his lack of response, or insensitive remarks as a rejection of you, it is him protecting himself.


Consider this done. Thank you for being so blatantly blunt - it was exactly what I needed.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Just like you, he doesn't know for sure if he wants R, either. 

But, he's def open to the possibility, IMO, or he wouldn't invest this much time in being w you. 

He can play it off as "being w my D", for sure. But he could spend the time w D somewhere else, right?

Consider actions, not words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> He can play it off as "being w my D", for sure. But he could spend the time w D somewhere else, right?


Not really since he is only renting a room right now and that is over an hour away....and it would be hard to keep her out of the house all day....

But he did come up Saturday afternoon when I was in the bedroom and said "you can sit downstairs with us" - I said I thought he might like some time alone with her after we went sleigh riding....but he reiterated "if you want to sit with us then come down" -- needless to say I went down....so I did view that as him "trying".....

I guess this is where I struggle....not knowing what is really an "effort" on his part.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Consider actions, not words.


I am really trying with this part....REALLY I am ....but sometimes his actions are hard to read. Although I took his throwing snowballs at me as a good sign too - at least it was some kind of attention....and he did go on a snow tube with me..... 

It was really a fun weekend.....I try to tell myself if he had no desire to try the weekend would not have been so good....

But then I tell myself to STOP READING THINGS and just go with the flow and what will be will be.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> You guys said this was hard - I never imagined.......


The rewards for sticking with it are amazing. The best times are ahead of you. You just have to stick with it and get there.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well if this past weekend was a sign of what COULD be...me thinks it is more than worth it....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So he called to talk to our D and he told her that he would not be able to call her later because he is going out to dinner with "friends from work" ---- he has been at this job for almost 10 years and has NEVER EVER EVER been out with friends from work after work.

I called him to ask him a VALID question about a refinance we are doing...I said hey whatcha doing - he said he is on his way to dinner.....

I did not ask with who or anything....but my heart sank.......

....and I feel sick......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Right now I am doing everything to keep this together....and it is hard to not get anything in return...yes, he is responsive when I reach out - but it would be nice for him to show me SOMETHING in return that shows he cares, right now I do not feel like I get anything - I guess you are all saying that is part of the process but it is hard....and I think what is forgotten sometimes is that all of this did start because of the hurt and pain inflicted on me....so my natural response was to make him understand that pain...albeit I did it wrong....



WAI, I hope you get that I am not taking sides or forgetting anything. I would never belittle the pain that you went through when he cheated on you, and I don't say these things to in any way deflect responsibility for his cheating onto you. He made that choice and needs to own that decision and the consequences that have ensued. By the same token, I don't know for sure, but there must have been a lot of things going on in the marriage at the time that made him vulnerable to it. Those things can't happen in a healthy marriage. Nevertheless, that single act set this ball in motion and it has been rolling downhill ever since. I understand the position he is in, I have been there. And, you now understand some of what you did to contribute to the downward spiral. And hopefully you also understand that that makes you both responsible. To what degree or where should most of the blame be placed? Why measure blame? Why is that important? Who really cares? And what difference does it make now? Own your part, whatever it is. H understands what he did to set you guys on this path. 





workingatit said:


> I do realize the years of damage that have been done by both of us......and I guess there is just a part of me that almost wants to say lets make believe the past did not happen and move on....but I know how impossible that is....


I am sorry to tell you this, but there is no way to just shut the door behind you and pretend it did not happen. You and H will never forget it...never. It is now part of your history. The key now is to learn from it and move forward. Keep in mind, that knowing how bad it got can be a HUGE MOTIVATOR to both of you to never let the relationship break down like this again. If you take care of it and deal with things head on and quickly it won't. If you don't deal with things, sweep them under the rug and hold grudges it can.




workingatit said:


> I guess I am still looking for him to show me he cares about "us" in a way I WANT TO SEE IT.....I do tell myself that he does show my even by talking to me....and texting me.....and going shopping when he is here....I do try to remember those things....


I know you have a lot on your plate and it is sometimes hard to focus with all of this going on. Read 5LL. You will start to realize and see what you haven't seen in the past. I am sure the signs are there. And when he is receptive you let him know that you appreciate those things but that you are wired a little different and that he needs to give you the signs in a different way to have the most affect on you. 

Tell him what those things are and spell them out for him. Tell him it will make you putty in his hands. That will be all the motivation he needs to get on board. You two are 2 ships passing on the ocean right now...





workingatit said:


> I guess I just feel so much lighter and happier these days ....and that makes me just want it to all be better.....
> 
> I guess I just want a hug FROM him...or a text FROM him...first.....seems so simple....but I guess I am being unfair to him......
> 
> You guys said this was hard - I never imagined.......


I know, and my heart breaks every time I see it on the screen. But, if he gives in without the trust behind it, then he is LOST...he is a responsible and decent man and I don't think you realize how hard it was for him to walk out that door and leave behind a wife and daughter that he obviously loves. How hard can it possibly be to say to yourself that my wife and my kids would be better off without me here. Pretty damn hard. I could never do it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Not really since he is only renting a room right now and that is over an hour away....and it would be hard to keep her out of the house all day....
> 
> But he did come up Saturday afternoon when I was in the bedroom and said "you can sit downstairs with us" - I said I thought he might like some time alone with her after we went sleigh riding....but he reiterated "if you want to sit with us then come down" -- needless to say I went down....so I did view that as him "trying".....
> 
> I guess this is where I struggle....not knowing what is really an "effort" on his part.....


That's good. Maybe next time you can push just a little and say only if I can sit next to you or something like that. If he says no, then you already know why. I know the rejection is hard to deal with, but you know what that is about.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I asked my husband to leave last Tuesday....I have said many times he should leave...this time he did.
> 
> He told me in October he wanted a divorce, but never left. This led to me nagging and constantly wanting to talk about the relationship. (During the last 4 months I do believe he was actually making small efforts to make things work - I ignoredthem).
> 
> ...


I just want to highlight aspects of your first post in this thread to remind you why he would be defensive.

In the same post you mentioned he was open to trying a date or two if things went well. Maybe time to remind him of that and say no pressure but if he feels that way you would like it very much?


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

hang in there working at it hes going through the same emotions you are, some days good some days bad, like old timer said (hope was him) this is a marathon not a sprint.

not to speak for wazza or oldtimer but feel free to recreate the wet t-shirt photo for us we wont mind


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

terrence4159 said:


> not to speak for wazza or oldtimer but feel free to recreate the wet t-shirt photo for us we wont mind


Hey, I asked first. Get in line buster!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

sorry wazza


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> So he called to talk to our D and he told her that he would not be able to call her later because he is going out to dinner with "friends from work" ---- he has been at this job for almost 10 years and has NEVER EVER EVER been out with friends from work after work.
> 
> I called him to ask him a VALID question about a refinance we are doing...I said hey whatcha doing - he said he is on his way to dinner.....
> 
> ...



General concensus -- would it be OK to send a NICELY WORDED non accusatory email stating it upsets me that he does not let me know who he is going out with or when?

I think even though we are separated I have a right to know who he spends his time with no???

The fact that he NEVER goes out during the week and really has not "buddies" to go with has me terrified that he is doing something he should not be.....

If he is out with a woman tonite we are done....and I cannot handle the pain in my chest at the moment....

But I did not sign up for a separation so he can go date....and we NEVER discussed that and I would have NEVER agreed to it....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Never discussed, no ground rules laid. I think the line you are drawing is a tad harsh. What if he is out with a group that includes women? What if he is out with a woman but as friends, not as a date? 

I would have a conversation with him and draw it as a line not to cross in future. 

I also think you are jumping very quickly to a worst case conclusion without any real evidence. Perfectly natural and understandable, but not good for you. 

Breathe deep, calm down. TALK to him, don't panic.

A note is good...lets you organise your thoughts. Draft it and post it here for critique?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Wazza....I am a MESS right now...and I know I am not thinking clearly, I am jumping to worst case because of the scenario...he never calls our daughter that early....and the fact he said he would not be able to text her later.....that cannot be good....

I am fine if he is out in a group - but he does NOT work in an environment that does that....and at this point no I would not want him out with a woman as a friend....and I asked him like 2 months ago if I could meet a friend from high school fro coffee who was in town (a male)....and he told me how would you feel if I went out with a "girl friend" --- needless to say I did not go.

I am jumping to worst case because my heart says something is not right here....

.....and the fact that he constantly throws that I "hide" things from him.....and now he does this.....makes me really upset.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and I also find it odd that just yesterday he said something like "i thought we agreed to see other people" - when it was NEVER DISCUSSED!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So I am thinking something like this?

"Morning. I hope you had a good time at dinner, although I wished you had mentioned you had plans and let me know who you were going with. I hope you know how much I would like this marriage to work, but I feel a little unsure of where we are when you do not tell me what is going on in your life. I know we did not specify rules for the separation, but hope you respect me enough to let me know how you are spending your time."

Too harsh? Damn I just want to pick up the phone right now - but know that is so wrong....but what if he is with a girl.....I want to know because then I WILL be done!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i could be wrong and if you ask my wife i always am. but i agree it is disturbing to me to that he said that to you and then "has plans" i wouldnt email that to him. if its ok to date like he said arrange a dinner night out for you with a friend or 2 and tell him not to call later as you will not be home. i still think rec is a good chance but be prepared for the worst. so dinner night may not hurt.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

You are shooting yourself now.

Calm down.

Patience.

It is no big deal who he is going out with. You are not living together right now.

You are acting like a hurt child.

He is testing you by what he says to you and the actions he shows you.

And he is also protecting himself.

He knows you will be dying inside right now wondering if he s with another woman.

Do not give him the satisfaction.

If he chooses that route well he as made a poor decision and one that cost him his marriage.

You need to give him those 30 days. After this many years together what is 30 days.

You need to find your inner strength and know that you will come brought this time in your life just fine. Whether you R or D is of no consequence at this time. 

Just know that you and your daughter will be fine. No matter wht happens.....

You should have told him to have a good time. And then asked him to babysit next week because you are going to movies, or dinner or play bingo with some old ladies.

Be strong. Be confident. Be fine with yourself no matter the outcome.

HM64


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> So I am thinking something like this?
> 
> "Morning. I hope you had a good time at dinner, although I wished you had mentioned you had plans and let me know who you were going with. I hope you know how much I would like this marriage to work, but I feel a little unsure of where we are when you do not tell me what is going on in your life. I know we did not specify rules for the separation, but hope you respect me enough to let me know how you are spending your time."
> 
> Too harsh? Damn I just want to pick up the phone right now - but know that is so wrong....but what if he is with a girl.....I want to know because then I WILL be done!


To indirect. A sentence like "I am worried you were out with another woman. Was that the case?" should be there, and maybe "If so can we discuss it? That is not something I think we should do during our separation."


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

again dont say anything to him just let it go.....focus your energy on you and maybe that photo for WAZZA (not line cutting now) sorry sad attempt to get you to laugh


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Terrence that did make me chuckle! 

ANd it is funny that Funnyman and Wazz offer 2 totally different options...I was JUST ready to send a text too.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Happyman the problem I have is if he IS WITH another woman I would NEVER even know.....I am trying hard to tell myself that he already has a lot of guilt in him and he would not do this right now.....but I just do not know him well enough anymore to know what he is capable of....

ANd it is a DEALBREAKER for me....we NEVER agreed to date...never even discussed it....we are STILL MARRIED......I have gave him ample chances the last few days to say he wants a divorce and he has not done so.....

I would not even think of going with a man right now and put this at risk......so it does matter to me who he is with.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....and I actually did say have a good time...as I gritted my teeth.

This separation was to be about figuring himself out...getting help etc....and figuring out where we go...NOT so he can go play...if he is out with the guys I am fine with that....but again....I do not know what guys he would be out with since there has NEVER been a group he has hung out with near work......he doesnt even like most of the people at work.....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

this is a tough one thats for sure. i can see you doing the message and not saying a think. my .02 cents dont say anything and if at the end of the 30 days you guys sit and talk then ask him the details. again plan a date night for you and tell him nothing other than you are going out so not to call. date night with friends actual friends. again just my .02 cents

do what you feel you need to do you have to live with the decisions we dont.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

if you want another chuckle workingatit my avatar photo the knifr sticking out of my back has my XW's name in the handle.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So to contact or not? If I do not get the truth this will be an obstacle for us since I will always wonder now what he is doing.....

I do not want to play the "games" of now I go out and don't tell him where I am going or who I am with.....I do not think these try to make people jealous tactics work....

.....and after him saying yesterday he does not care if I date I really do not think it would bother him.....

.....I am so ready to just give up --------I cannot handle the emotions that go with this anymore........he is game playing.....he wants me to hold to a standard of honesty and being open - but yet he does not have to?


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

DO WHATS best for you and you D thats all that is important right now!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i say dont contactm let him talk about it at the end of the 30 days, get a date night planned for you.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The reason for my approach is that you keep making up all sorts of horror scenarios that may or may not be true, and so I think does he.

The truth will seem mild by comparison. 

Imagine ending your marriage because you are hurt and afraid for things that never actually happened!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Here is what I wrote - did not send yet:

I know you said y were going to dinner tonite and I am very concerned about who you were with. I hope you can understand my concerns and the want for you to be as honest with me as you want me to be with you. We never really put any plan in place for this separation and I think that was a bad idea...I want u to go out and have fun...but I just hope we agree dating right now is not a good idea? I feel like you were hiding these dinner plans from me and it really upset me....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Here is what I wrote - did not send yet:
> 
> I know you said y were going to dinner tonite and I am very concerned about who you were with. I hope you can understand my concerns and the want for you to be as honest with me as you want me to be with you. We never really put any plan in place for this separation and I think that was a bad idea...I want u to go out and have fun...but I just hope we agree dating right now is not a good idea? I feel like you were hiding these dinner plans from me and it really upset me....


I would change the last sentence. I don't see that he has hidden it from you. Perhaps "Maybe I am jumping at shadows but you have been vague about who you are going to dinner with and I am really upset about that." Does that work better?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I took out that line and added in:

I have no intentions or desire to date at this time...I know soetimes you seem to not want to believe that, but its the truth..and I am still committed to this marriage...maybe I am just being silly but bc u were so vague it scared me....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

ok...message sent......now I feel sicker but yet better......


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

:iagree:

Do not accuse him.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

pulling for you workikatit.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I do not think it came off accusatory.....hope he does not see it that way......but I am scared and he needs to know that.....I think I also needed to clarify that DATING IS NOT ACCCEPTABLE!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Nice last sentence. Hang in there girl!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am trying....this is killing me though...after such a strong weekend into this is wreaking havoc on my emotional state. 

Even when I called him tonite to talk about our refinance (when he was on his way to dinner) - he seemed like he did not want to talk to me at all.....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i dont blame you. i agree dating is unacceptable when trying to save a marriage. i feel for you the rollar coaster sucks


i would never let wazza date anyother TAMer!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

this is why we are here for you to rant.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

terrence4159 said:


> i would never let wazza date anyother TAMer!


You just want my wet tshirt pics of WAI...that is why you like me!!

The fact that my wife would never let me date another TAMer is more influential to me


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

you cant blame me for wanting a view of that photo can you?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Here is what I wrote - did not send yet:
> 
> I know you said y were going to dinner tonite and I am very concerned about who you were with. I hope you can understand my concerns and the want for you to be as honest with me as you want me to be with you. We never really put any plan in place for this separation and I think that was a bad idea...I want u to go out and have fun...but I just hope we agree dating right now is not a good idea? I feel like you were hiding these dinner plans from me and it really upset me....


Discussed with the W. she and I differ a little in our opinion of what is going on with him, but what we both agree is that, unfortunately, you did not have a firm and established set of boundaries for what you two were going to be doing during this period of separation. We both also agree that after tonight you had best set those boundaries and that if he is interested in dating around, you need to tell him that you don't think that is in the best interest of your family and you are not ok with that. If he does not agree, then you know what he is really after and you are firmly within your right to tell him that you are done.

As far as what we don't agree on, there are 2 possibilities with respect to what is happening tonight.
1. He is not going, or going out with guys and maybe girls and guys in a group and is doing it this way to get a rise out of you and make you beg him to come home. I don't think I have to tell you that sometimes the best way to make a woman want a man is to make her think that another woman wants that man. I must say that if he is doing this he is really playing with fire and not too altogether being smart about this, given your history. 

2. He has a date that may or may not go anywhere. He is on his own now, you kicked him out and you two had no boundaries established beforehand. How you handle that is up to you but W and I both agree that if anything romantic happens it is cheating. If nothing happens then after today it shouldn't happen again, 30 days or no. I don't know how you would ever know whether something happened or not, because he could and probably would lie about it...so????


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Tron! 

First, he did make a comment yesterday about his "thinking we agreed to date" although it was never discussed. I made it CLEAR yesterday that I do not agree with us dating at this point - he knows my stance on it with 100% clarity, so if he is out on a date then we are done. No questions asked. 

I would like to think if he responds to my text that he will be honest (this coming from a guy who has been constantly calling me a liar for not telling him something) ---- but if he is honest and admits he was out with a girl. I will ask him if he can agree to not dating for the remainder of our separation...if he cannot we are done.....but if he is lying to me.....I will eventually catch him....and then we will be done anyway......(he is a horrible liar).....

If he is out with a group clearly I am fine with that....I just hope going forward he will tell me ....but truth is his place of work does not typically go out......they are not the most social bunch.....

Also, please note that the girl he had the affair with moved back to NJ in fall of last year.....so that is my one big concern.....

ANd he does not have to play mind games for me to ask him to come back....he has already been told on several occassions how missed he is and how much I want him home......

..........somehow.....my heart is screaming out that this is the end.......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Oh yeah, and we both agree that playing tit for tat and intimating to him that you have a hot date next week and making him baby sit is a bad idea!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I would never do that.....a game player I am not.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....and is it wrong for me to feel like if he really cared about me that he would respond in a way that makes me feel like he cares about my feelings? I am honestly expecting an attack of some sort --- which is clearly not what I want....

I am actually more nervous now that he has not texted back yet....makes me think even more that he is with someone....sually by now he wouldbe home on the computer or getting ready for bed.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Also, please note that the girl he had the affair with moved back to NJ in fall of last year.....so that is my one big concern.....


What do you know about her? You never went into it that much before.



workingatit said:


> ANd he does not have to play mind games for me to ask him to come back....he has already been told on several occassions how missed he is and how much I want him home.


I know and I thought about that too, but he has his 30 day plan...and you don't want to be too controlling or pushy. Very delicate...and complicated situation now.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ....and is it wrong for me to feel like if he really cared about me that he would respond in a way that makes me feel like he cares about my feelings? I am honestly expecting an attack of some sort --- which is clearly not what I want....
> 
> I am actually more nervous now that he has not texted back yet....makes me think even more that he is with someone....sually by now he wouldbe home on the computer or getting ready for bed.....


You've done what you can do. It is up to him now. Go try and relax, take a hot bath, do yoga, go watch your favorite movie, whatever you can do to calm down. You probably won't get a response until tomorrow.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

wow tron could you have twisted what we told her to go do for date night around? we told her to have a date night WITH FRIENDS not a hot date to rub in his face big difference. what you want her to sit at home the whole time. i think it would be good for her to get out and have a good night out.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Sorry guys, not intentionally trying to twist anything. May have exaggerated the "hot date" part. WAI already went out last week but pretty sure it was a girls night and H knew about and was totally cool with it. No question that she needs to continue to do those things for herself.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> What do you know about her? You never went into it that much before.


I know they had what I think may have been a long term affiar - it was someone he worked with. I did intercept emails and text messages between them stating their undying love blah blah blah - but he lied to her from day one, so it would have never lasted. Just a few months before I was pregnant...he told me how much he loved me and how beautiful I was. He told her I was a raving lunatic and he needed to get away from me. (He never once discussed leaving me to me) --- 

This all happened while his dad was dying, so I think that was more of the catapult for this affair than us....

I gave him an option....quit your job and keep your family or stay with her and lose your family.

.....he quit his job......

She not long after moved to FL - where she has been until last fall......she lives about 20 minutes or so from us now....

It has been 9 years...I know she was devastated when he broke up with her...she is still single.....(40 and single and dates married men....a great setup for a relationship).....I would think if she had any respect she would NOT see him again....but women are idiots....

It is about 7am here...still nothing in response to my text...I am completely sick to my stomach and did not sleep at all....

I am just really starting to think that divorce is the easier option here and possibly the better one. 

I am just exhausted from all of this.....I want this to work do not get me wrong, but getting nothing back from him, having him seemingly not even make an attempt to spend any time alone with me or even reach out to me in anyway is just not something I can take anymore.

I have been in pain for years too ---- but now it has turned into all about him.....and he is not doing anything to fix his own issues......meanwhile I am dealing with 2 counselors, on here and reading books until I am blue in the face.....

I have reread this entire thread last night - I think I have done a great job of being open, taking responsibility, apologizing and showing him how much I care......

...he has done nothing.....but make me hurt more for the last month.....

..........I cannot handle the mess in my head any more and need to get back to a healthier place where I am not stresing over this anymore. 

.......the one thing I keep reminding myself is I deserve someone who can take responsibility for their portion of this mess - he does not.....I deserve someone who can at least make me feel like they care ---- he does not.....I deserve someone who thinks this relationship is important and worth saving....he does not......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> May have exaggerated the "hot date" part. WAI already went out last week but pretty sure it was a girls night and H knew about and was totally cool with it. No question that she needs to continue to do those things for herself.


I definitely do - I try to go out once or so a week. It will become more than that now though. 

Clearly he does not care what I do or where I go so it is time to start getting back out there and living.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

and this is what I got:

"I'm pretty sure I told you the guys from Phoneix and Orlando were coming up for 2 weeks so rather than sit home alone I went out with them for a little bit. I really don't feel I have to explain myself."

My response:

"I am not asking you to explain yourself at all...but I would hope given the circumstances we would both try to be open with each other. I am glad you went out...I have said ti before...and I will say it again...this is hard...you r missed...and I hate the lack of communication we have at this moment."


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Well,

It sounds reasonable to me. How about you?

Good response btw. You are getting really good at this...as ****ty as that really is.

I started thinking some more about the comments he made about you and other guys. I don't know how comfortable you are exploring that further with him over the next week or two. No one on the board here is there with you guys so we don't have much to go on, except what you write. I think we are in agreement that if he still feels something for you (and the signs point that way) it does not sound rational for him to not care about that AT ALL. But, if he really really feels that way, you should probably get yourself prepared for the worst, because you can pretty much bet that the coldness that you are getting from him is no act. Tough spot you are in because on top of all that you are having a hard time reading him right now...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> It sounds reasonable to me. How about you?


Absolutely - he did tell me last week about these guys coming in. I flipped only because SUnday he says we agreed to dating and then the next day he has "dinner plans"....just seemed way to odd. He never told me he would be going to dinner with them.



> I think we are in agreement that if he still feels something for you (and the signs point that way) it does not sound rational for him to not care about that AT ALL. But, if he really really feels that way, you should probably get yourself prepared for the worst, because you can pretty much bet that the coldness that you are getting from him is no act.


This is where I am TOTALLY stuck. Although he has made comments like that in the past as well --- I always told myself it was an insecurity thing - although I do not think he has ever even been cheated on....I cannot deal with the coldness anymore.....but it does seem to ebb and flow....last weekend he hugged me and grabbed my ass...this week I could not get him to even hug me....it makes no sense....

I think at this point I am totally backing off.....I am sending an email just to apologize for the text last night......

But I am done after that. No more texts, emails, calls nothing. He will be here tomorrow and then we have the wedding on Friday.....when he is here I will be scarce - friendly but scarce.....and I am no longer going to initiate any contact at all. I need to start pulling away more at this point to keep myself healthy.....

I am just not feeling this has any hope anymore.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Tron said:


> As far as what we don't agree on, there are 2 possibilities with respect to what is happening tonight.
> 1. He is not going, or going out with guys and maybe girls and guys in a group and is doing it this way to get a rise out of you and make you beg him to come home. I don't think I have to tell you that sometimes the best way to make a woman want a man is to make her think that another woman wants that man. I must say that if he is doing this he is really playing with fire and not too altogether being smart about this, given your history.
> 
> 2. He has a date that may or may not go anywhere. He is on his own now, you kicked him out and you two had no boundaries established beforehand. How you handle that is up to you but W and I both agree that if anything romantic happens it is cheating. If nothing happens then after today it shouldn't happen again, 30 days or no. I don't know how you would ever know whether something happened or not, because he could and probably would lie about it...so????


Oh yeah...and there is a 3rd possibility,
3. you forgot to tell us that he mentioned this to you and is going out with the guys


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> This is where I am TOTALLY stuck. Although he has made comments like that in the past as well --- I always told myself it was an insecurity thing - although I do not think he has ever even been cheated on....I cannot deal with the coldness anymore.....but it does seem to ebb and flow....last weekend he hugged me and grabbed my ass...this week I could not get him to even hug me....it makes no sense....


 Reread the last few pages. It kinda does make sense.



workingatit said:


> I think at this point I am totally backing off.....I am sending an email just to apologize for the text last night......


 If you think the apology is warranted then send it, If not I think your text this morning was sufficient. I agree you need to back off today, for you. You went through the wringer last night. Time to regroup and chillax.



workingatit said:


> But I am done after that. No more texts, emails, calls nothing. He will be here tomorrow and then we have the wedding on Friday.....when he is here I will be scarce - friendly but scarce.....and I am no longer going to initiate any contact at all. I need to start pulling away more at this point to keep myself healthy.....I am just not feeling this has any hope anymore.....


Yep. And if you go R, there will be more days like this...unfortunately. 

Keep fighting, keep doing what your doing, the work you are doing on you will pay off either way.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

This was my final email to him this morning:

"I did not want to upset you with that text last night. But when you said Sunday that you thought we agreed to date, and then the next day you say you are going to dinner - I hope you can see how I can take that wrong, and I am sorry that I even thought way. I have never not trusted you in all these years, but this just had me concerned. It is extra hard since it seems like you have such a wall up with me right now - and I am not sure how to get you to take it down and let me back in even just a little....and if how I feel right now is how you have felt all these years then I am beyond sorry because it hurts to have the one person who is supposed to be your best friend always seem to push you away.....I guess I may have underestimated what you may have been feeling all this time.....

I guess i thought by working on myself and getting to the point I am at of understanding my faults and showing you that I am working on them and taking responsibility for my part in this mess would automatically help you let your guard down and start to trust that I will not be the same nagging ***** I was. But I guess I am being impatient with the process.....especially after having so much fun over the weekend, it makes me want to just have it be "back to normal, well better than normal". This weekend was a great example of how it should be everyday - and how I plan my future to be - no drama, more fun...something I have sucked at in the past.

so again, I am sorry - I just did not want to keep it all bottled up - like you said we need to be more honest with each other and that is all I was trying to do.

...now go have a great day.....and we are looking forward to seeing you tomorrow......"


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

IM so sorry again for you working this rollar coaster you are on sucks. you are handling this wonderfully way better than i would be. 

and if you ever need to slap someone or hit someone i can have tron over there he will help you with that..hes just that nice of a guy


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

terrence4159 said:


> IM so sorry again for you working this rollar coaster you are on sucks. you are handling this wonderfully way better than i would be.
> 
> and if you ever need to slap someone or hit someone i can have tron over there he will help you with that..hes just that nice of a guy


:lol:Not a violent guy but a headslap is definitely appropriate. Then leave the dbag instructions to get his sorry arse back home and take care of his W and D with an extra note that there of 1000's of guys out there that would give their left nut to be in his shoes right now...


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

oh sorry tron meant you will go over so she can slap you.. and i totally :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: with tron


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

terrence4159 said:


> oh sorry tron meant you will go over so she can slap you.. and i totally :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: with tron


Funny, Terr 

The W might have a problem with that. She is pretty territorial and feels like she's got exclusive rights on that. But it might feel good to know that there are a bunch of women out there that want to slap me around. 

They have a name for that btw, it's called that the Charlie Sheen Syndrome. I BE WINNING!! :rofl:!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am sitting. I am thinking. I am rereading. I am over analyzing. But these are my thoughts that are leading me to a place of total confusion.....I am just writing this as a way for me to heal..and to say things I cannot say to him......

I think for the last couple of weeks I have done everything OK, but then why is the pain still so strong?

Why, when the pain was originally inflicted by you - must I be the one to single handedly put it all back together? Why must i be the patient one, the apologetic one, the understanding one.....

Where is the compassion from you for my hurt or my pain.....

How can you just 5 or 6 weeks ago flirt and touch me and goof with me, now turn it all off and sound like talking to me is torture?

Why I am trying to save a relationship where I am starting to think you never loved me?

Why do I want to be with someone who almost seems to be depressed to a point of having 2 personalities.....

How can you who has hurt me so much, not understand that all of this is because I was HURTING - but yet not want to fix that?

How can someone who is supposed to be my husband say things like "I do not care if you date other people or I am sure you have hooked up etc..."

How am I supposed to let this all ago and walk away like I do not care in an effort to make it work? I get the theory - I don't get how a marriage can work that way......

Shouldn't it be simple? Either you want to make it work - or you want a divorce. It seems that simple.

But when I ask if you want a divorce - you do not give me a yes or no...you redirect the question in a new direction.

If you wanted a divorce would you just say yes when I asked outright? 

You said you wanted one in October - was that just to hurt me because I hurt you or did you mean it?

Then you said lets see what happens in 30 days. 

What did that mean? We had no plan, no expectations. You are not going to counseling...your are not working on things....so what will change?

What do I really want? 

I just do not know anymore.

Or maybe I know but know that what I want is not possible.

I want a husband who adores me - who can look past my imperfections and appreciate the deep and unconditional love I have for him. Who can relish in our long history and accept that we are different and work harder to find things that bring us closer. Someone who can heal my heart when it hurts and not be the one who always hurts it. I want a best friend I can talk to without fear of judgement or anger. I want a true honest and open relationship.

I do not know if we can have that anymore. 

I think your way of acting towards me lately, the harsh words, the cold attitude are possibly ways of you protecting yourself, but when I relive our history - I realize these are not new things you have done.

I am not making a rash decision. I will grow patience....and embrace it. I will not email you, I will not text you and I will not call you. You know where I am.

When you are here, I will be the person I am proud to be. I will be happy - because I AM, not because I am faking it to get you back.

When you are gone, I will stop thinking about us. I will stop wishing and hoping and praying. I will live my life to the fullest - with or without you.

IN the end. I will know I tried. I tried with all my heart to love you over the last 22 years - as hard as it sometimes was to do so. 

I have always been faithful - I have always supported you (even if my actions may have shown differently) - I have always been proud of you and in the fact that you were my husband. I was willing to take the bad with the good with you and learned to understand your unqiue needs and to enjoy the beautiful things about you. 

You took it all for granted. 

I am not perfect. I have said and done some dumb things. But ALL I ever wanted was for you to be happy.

But it is not up to me to make you happy.

And I cannot try any more. 

It is about me - and about our D. That is all I care about now.

I can move on from this relationship knowing I am a BETTER person, that I am a STRONGER person and that I WILL find someone who is worthy and will appreciate all I have to offer. 

I work hard. I am a great mom. I am faithful. I am a great friend. I do a lot for others with my charitable work. I do not ask for things. I do not ask for vacations. I can love with all of my being. I am a simple girl with simple needs. 

If you cannot see that behind your anger and pain - then you lose. 

You will still be angry at the world. You will still be sad/depressed. You are unable to love completely because you do not love yourself. You think you have changed so much, you read inspirational quotes - but do not live what you read. You are not much different than you were years ago - you can think you are, but you are not.

I was willing to help you get to a better place. But you do not need my help you said.

OK.

I love you. I feel sorry for you. I worry about you. You have my heart.....well, you had my heart. It is time to take it back.

I am not closing the door. 

I am starting to shut it.......it is time. 

.....it is time to do for me.......and let you go completely........if you decide to come back, I may or may not be here.

We have done this dance before - several times. You always come back. 

I may not be so ready for you this time.....

I love you - I always will. And while this is not the path I would have chosen for us, it is the only path I can see ahead.......I need to walk away from the pain, the anger, your inability to love me - the way you make me feel like I have done nothing good ever. I cannot tolerate it any more.

I wish you nothing but happiness.....

I wish you love.....

I wish you peace.....

I hope you find a better place.

...and when you find those things.....I hope to hear from you......as a friend.....so I can know you are in a good place. Because I care.

You will always be a part of my life - in my heart and through our D. But I will do everything I can to separate myself from you. Not to hurt you - but to take care of me.

I do not know what your plans are/were for this "30 days".....but for these last 2 weeks you will not hear from me. We will enjoy a night out on Friday as friends....and that will be it.

.........you will not hear another sound from me...........


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hang in there. Virtual hug from me. Just know that others have gone through this and survived, and you will too.

Why is it the ones we love who hurt us so much? But then life goes on. We grit our teeth and keep going.

We are there with you WAI.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Let it out.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i agree with tron let it out and with wazza hang in there! WE DO FEEL YOUR PAIN and am so so sorry. wish i could fix it. this rollar coaster sucks a$$ and right now you are at a low point!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I cannot thank you guys enough for EVERYTHING! This forum has been unbelievable....the support - the advice - and the blossoming friendships that make me realize this is a place I will stay whether my marriage works or not, so I can help others and see how my new friends are doing.

I am crying right now to get it all out. I will pick up the pieces and I will move on. I am closer to that point than I have ever been. 

I love this man with all my heart - but he has never deserved it. He has so much as admitted that to me.

I cannot do this "game" with him. And he will not work on himself - so there is just nothing I can do except start the moving on process. 

It is HARD. The pain is INTENSE right now - but I know better days are ahead - I have never been more confident, strong or proud of myself. And all the work I have done in the last month and will continue to do will only serve me well going forward....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Still waiting on "perky" picture....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I wish I had one OT! You guys deserve at least that for all of my moaning and groaning you have been dealing with.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

That's ok, we'll just imagine. 

And by the way you seem like a nice person, and actually it's NOT AT ALL onerous to hang out with you!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

awww shucks.....thanks Wazza!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

well since tron wimped out about going over to your place to let you slap him around WAZZA will step up, just say the word. ill get him there


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

terrence4159 said:


> well since tron wimped out about going over to your place to let you slap him around WAZZA will step up, just say the word. ill get him there


Can I bring my camera and some t shirt wetting stuff????


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

You guys are ballsy. Hey I can be 400 pounds and gruseome to look at you know...be careful what you wish for "online"!!! 

Hey I have a serious question. I was just reading another thread from a guy who sounds like me. He was separated for a month and then filed for divorce because the limbo sucks and he thinks like me in that "either you want it to work or you do not"....

But it was interesting - his thought was that his wife WANTED him to file so she did not have to be the bad guy.

I never gave that a thought to be honest.....

With those that know my story...do you think maybe he DOES want the divorce....but just wants me to do it so that he does not have another thing to feel guilty about?

I am getting myself ready to file...just figuring out when....I am going to try and hold off until after our family vacation which is the last week of March - our D is counting on this trip and I WILL NOT let her down.....

.....I just wonder if this could be his real line of thinking......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I think he still wants to be married to you, but is hurting.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OK....just sounded like an interesting theory to me and one i never considered.....

I am sticking with my 180 for the next couple of months and will see what happens, but am prepping for filing in April.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i cant even pretend to know whats going on in his head and that says alot us guys never think. it is a possibility but i agree with wazza.

and heck yeah take a camera wazza id love to see picts of her smacking you around


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

good for you working do what makes you happy cant wait around forever....i know ive been waiting 36 years now for charlize theron and nothing yet


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL! Terrence....yeah...and me waiting on Johnny Depp is not going well either. 

I figured another 6 weeks won't kill me...and I do want to get through our trip without the word divorce looming over us....we have not had a family vacation in 7 years....my daughter is looking forward to this so much - and I guess I have a glimmer of hope that it could be a magical week for us.....if when we get back there is no improvement or talk of R then I will file mid-April.....

I have to be true to myself....and living in limbo with someone who is "not sure" if they want to be with me is not a way I deserve to live. 

And although I have said the ways I have hurt him in this thread...If I told you all I have done for this man you would scratch your head and wonder why he is being such an ass to me now....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

terrence4159 said:


> i cant even pretend to know whats going on in his head and that says alot us guys never think. it is a possibility but i agree with wazza.
> 
> and heck yeah take a camera wazza id love to see picts of her smacking you around


Hey if she smacks me around it is private and special between us. I reckon there are really 51 shades of grey - this may be my chance to find out..


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Children behave!!!!!!!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

YOUR selfish wazza, if she smacke dme around id share the photos.

and i agree another six weeks wont hurt and will make you a stronger person for wazza's butt whooping


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

and there is a chacne he wants you to file for divorce (small one in my opinion. my XW wanted me to file, she was living with her new boyfriend when i did file.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

That sucks Terrence.....if he was with someone else it would be a no brainer for me. But it does seem he is just staying low key and to himself for the most part - excluding his night out last night....

I just wish he would give me an inch so I could calm my head and know that there IS a chance for R or not. His coldness lately is breaking my heart....

But like everyone here keeps telling me - I guess he really does not know.....it is the same battle we have had for years about the affair....I asked him over and over why he had an affair....he said he did not know....

Now whether or not to end the marriage....it seems he does not know.....

But then I wonder if it is a cycle that will always happen.....there is NEVER finality to our issues.....will every big decision result in him "not knowing"

That is why I had to put something in place in my head to get to an endpoint....if I leave it in his court we could be in limbo forever.....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

take your time no rushing into things and when you need to vent we are here. just stick to your plan and when on vacation with him dont initiate contact. 

again your are doing great for what you are going through!! hang in there.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Stay the course. 

There will come a time when you will know whether R or D is the way to go. No one can predict when that will be, or what event/s will transpire to enlighten you...but you will know. 

Btw, from a cheater - I do not know with any certainty the real "why" of my A, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> There will come a time when you will know whether R or D is the way to go. No one can predict when that will be, or what event/s will transpire to enlighten you...but you will know.


This is why I am changing now - I am not 100% at either end yet - I just know I miss him. And I need to stop missing him. I do believe I will KNOW when its time to end it.....but I do know it will be sooner than later...there is a life out there and a guy out there that will appreciate everything about me....time to go find that person...after some spending some quality time with me of course! 



> Btw, from a cheater - I do not know with any certainty the real "why" of my A, either.


Wow, good to know. This was the ONE THING I pulled out of counseling that made the biggest impact/change in my attitude and forgiveness. 2 different counselors both told me he may not really know why he did it - and it blew my mind. I NEVER considered that an option.....so all these years I have been nagging him for an answer -- and he really did not have one...

I cannot imagine his frustration --- this is the centrifical piece to our mess......

If I had not nagged about this one issue night after night....things would not be the way there are....

:-(


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i agree with old timer said the course and follow your gut. dont beat yourself up every marriage is a 2 way street!

(a joke)a hobby may help get mind off of things like photo recreations of certain events :smthumbup:

thank goodness for edit button my spelling sucks


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Funny thing Terrence is I am a photographer....;-)


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OK I have one more question for you guys......

With my going 180 - and not knowing what our future holds...I have one issue that is hanging over me.

H asked me a month or 2 ago about refinancing the house because the interest rates now or so low. No discussion about what the money would be used for (maybe home repairs maybe an apartment I do not kow)....but my original gut said no way...you said you wanted a divorce I am not doing a refinance with you.

He was pissed and said I was trying to screw him blah blah blah..he did not see what the big deal was and we would save (XXX) per month.

I finally caved and said fine because I did not want to fight. (Thsi was before him moving out)

Fast forward a couple of months - I guess he had taken a break from it....but he brought home everything the other day.....the one bank was way too much in closing fees and it would take 4 years just to recoup the costs....if we divorce I do not plan on being here that long....

Then he tried another bank that was more affordable.....

But I am torn because if we are getting a divorce I do not want my name on the mortgage.....it seems counter productive to do this now....but I feel like I cannot say anything to him about this without it turning into a fight..

His thinking is "what is the big deal" its not like I am goign to screw you...my thinking is if we are getting a divorce I do not want a house on my credit report when I have to get my **** together.....

When this originally came up I said lets get the divorce and then you can do the refinance...that was ignored....

I know I should talk to an attorney about this.....but we are just not at that point yet - and if he knows I went to talk to an attorney - it will push him a million miles more away....

I am not sure how to handle this without pissing him off.....if I knew he was going to try and save this I would be fine with it......but I need to start looking ahead for ME...and having a mortgage may prevent me from getting my own place...

(He plans on me staying here if we get divorced...I have no intention of it...I have made that clear he thinks I am an idiot for not staying...)

For a while I was thinking why refinance if you want a divorce?!?!?!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i see your point about not wanting name on it, i dont blame you for not wanting to commit during this time. that is a tough one but if he brings it up or you could talk to him be honest with the marriage the way it is now it is not a good time to do this. and you are not an idiot of wanting to move on if it ends. thats the SMART healthy choice


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok WAI, three deep slow breaths. Be calm. Think.

If you owe on the house and are moving to a cheaper loan on the same debt I would do it.

If you have unencumbered ownership then I agree totally, do not take on debt at this point.

"Sorry husband, but with the current separation it is not the time to make any big financial commitments. I am hoping we come out of this together, but I am not going to restrict my options should we part."

"But wife I am not going to screw you. If we divorce you can have the house."

"But husband, I don't know if I will want to stay here. And if we divorce, where I live is my decision, not yours."


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Glad you've perked up. Had me worried there for a while. Fitting quite well into those big girl panties

No need to talk to an atty about this right now. You are OK and your instincts are correct. Does he have a target date in mind on this refi? If it is next week then you need to find some excuse why you can't be there...or just say you are not ready. reschedule after the 30 days. I have a feeling that you are going to have your answer from him at 30 days. He knows "I don't know" is not going to cut it. And if he tries to continue on with that line, then you put your big girl panties on and tell him the current situation is too tenuous and you aren't prepared to sign onto anything long term with him or the home if he isn't prepared to do the same with you.

What Wazza said is good too ;-)


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> "But husband, I don't know if I will want to stay here. And if we divorce, where I live is my decision, not yours."


"And there is this young guy named Terrence from Idaho that is sweet on me..."


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i really dont think my wife would like me being sweet on anyone else 

and since when is 36 young im almost at the top of the hill man


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

and there is a young man named terrence he 9 yrs old and my munchkin


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> "But husband, I don't know if I will want to stay here. And if we divorce, where I live is my decision, not yours."


And when I say this I am a horrible mother.



> Glad you've perked up. Had me worried there for a while. Fitting quite well into those big girl panties


Do not let the charade fool you I am a mess....but just getting my ducks in order......



> Does he have a target date in mind on this refi?


ASAP! It probably would have been done if I did not open my mouth and say the closign costs were nuts and we should look around...the appraiser was actually here yesterday from the first bacnk, but he just applied at a different bank with lower fees.



> I have a feeling that you are going to have your answer from him at 30 days.


Geez I hope you are right because that would be awesome. I am all buckled up for the next couple of weeks to go NC. Even though something happened today that I know he would be interested to hear....I am not contacting him....

I will let you know how the wedding goes Friday though.....still hope we can have a great time together.....


> And if he tries to continue on with that line, then you put your big girl panties on and tell him the current situation is too tenuous and you aren't prepared to sign onto anything long term with him or the home if he isn't prepared to do the same with you.


I love this.....

OK so I doubt anything would happen before the next 2 weeks any way with all the paperwork and such. And by that time it will be the 30 days...if he decides to R and work with me...then we are good...if not...the line above is PERFECTION!

Funny I did not realize it was halfway through the month already.....goes fast!!!

Thanks guys --- you keep me so grounded!!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

terrence4159 said:


> i really dont think my wife would like me being sweet on anyone else
> 
> and since when is 36 young im almost at the top of the hill man


36. Gee that's old. Have bits started falling off yet?

I'm a tad older. 

And she doesn't like you. It's ME she's going to play 51 shades of grey with, in that wet t shirt and those big girl panties.

This thread is getting a bit wild. WAI, will you just sort things out before your thread goes totally off the rails!?!?!?!?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

terrence4159 said:


> i really dont think my wife would like me being sweet on anyone else  (


Know that feeling well. And...it doesn't have to be true to have the desired effect on H. :awink: 




terrence4159 said:


> and since when is 36 young im almost at the top of the hill man


Got you by about a decade...you sir, are still a pup. uppy: And the view looks good from up here...:bringiton:


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Why do I feel like I am older than all of you...uugghhh



> This thread is getting a bit wild. WAI, will you just sort things out before your thread goes totally off the rails!?!?!?!?


I would love to. Then I can partake in the TAM games....I am usually right there with the menfolk on the obscenity jokes and sarcasm --- just not back in that place yet - ---- although reading you guys does make me chuckle...so keep going!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> And when I say this I am a horrible mother.


If he says leaving that house behind makes you a horrible mother, ask what leaving the marriage behind makes him?

Not trying to get you into a slanging match, but the truth is as I said it. If you guys divorce, it is no longer his business where you live.

But this is all hypothetical. I really don't expect things to go that way.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and if I do become a divorcee there is only one guy on this thread I would do 50 shades of grey with....and I ain't sayin' who!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> If he says leaving that house behind makes you a horrible mother, ask what leaving the marriage behind makes him?


He is a hypocrite - I have shown him many scenarios of that throughout the relationship....it is one of the issues that is keeping me from wondering if we can even make it. 

But this is a great point....

And if I do move....I would still keep my daughter in the same school system...she is starting junior high next year...her best friend is going to the OTHER junior high...I could move and get her in with her best buddy...she would be HAPPY....I do not need a 4 bedroom house to maintain for 2 of us....I do not want him to feel like he can come and go whenever he wants because his stuff his here...I need a BREAK from him compeltely so I can move on....maybe if I did not love him...it might be easier to stay....but that is not the case at all.....I love him immensely and cannot deal with the memories...

I just want a fresh new life....and for that I am horrible and not thinking of my daughter.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> He is a hypocrite - I have shown him many scenarios of that throughout the relationship....it is one of the issues that is keeping me from wondering if we can even make it.
> 
> But this is a great point....
> 
> ...


OK....stop. Calm. Breathe.

Bear in mind this is hypothetical right now. You are getting worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I guess I have taken a turn towards the "realistic" side of things. My heart knows he is not coming back. He will not have the want or desire to do what is needed to make this better....his theory on relationships since the day I met him has been:

"relationships should not take work"

It is something we often fought about.....so clearly, he is not going to put an ounce of effort into this. He thinks he should just be married and everything goes along great.....I almost hope he does get remarried, maybe then he will realize how his concept of what a relationship should be is really screwed up....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I do not need a 4 bedroom house to maintain for 2 of us....I do not want him to feel like he can come and go whenever he wants because his stuff his here...I need a BREAK from him compeltely so I can move on....maybe if I did not love him...it might be easier to stay....but that is not the case at all.....I love him immensely and cannot deal with the memories...
> 
> I just want a fresh new life....and for that I am horrible and not thinking of my daughter.....


WAI, That is totally understandable and if you have spent any time on here, you know that is what everyone is going to tell you to do. Get a fresh start...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I guess I have taken a turn towards the "realistic" side of things. My heart knows he is not coming back. He will not have the want or desire to do what is needed to make this better....his theory on relationships since the day I met him has been:
> 
> "relationships should not take work"
> 
> It is something we often fought about.....so clearly, he is not going to put an ounce of effort into this. He thinks he should just be married and everything goes along great.....I almost hope he does get remarried, maybe then he will realize how his concept of what a relationship should be is really screwed up....


You don't think the separation will teach him anything? Methinks you are being a harsh marker.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Honestly I do not think he loves me enough.....he misses our daughter no doubt, but I can say with all I am that I do not think he misses me one bit....and its not me "personally" - he just does not have that emotional ability to miss someone or need someone....

...sadly I married my mother.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ...sadly I married my mother.....


Whoa. We were doing so well off topic too. Don't like where this thread is going at all. We sure we want to go there?


And was I the only one who caught this?



workingatit said:


> ...and if I do become a divorcee there is only one guy on this thread I would do 50 shades of grey with....and I ain't sayin' who!


Guys...you see what she did there....she is a crafty one! That is like poking a stick in a hornets nest. I think she is starting to really love all this attention!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

We sure we want to go where? My mother and he are alike in the inability to show true love or compassion. I always thought my mother was depressed too...there are just so many things I see between them that are similar it scares me....

Are you also telling me I am being to quick to judge that he will not come back? If someone tells you for 22 years that a relationship should not take work...doesn't that just solidify that he is not going to try.....that is where I was taking the thread....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Whoa. We were doing so well off topic too. Don't like where this thread is going at all. We sure we want to go there?
> 
> 
> And was I the only one who caught this?
> ...


I caught it, but since I know who it will be I decided not to comment.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> We sure we want to go where? My mother and he are alike in the inability to show true love or compassion. I always thought my mother was depressed too...there are just so many things I see between them that are similar it scares me....
> 
> Are you also telling me I am being to quick to judge that he will not come back? If someone tells you for 22 years that a relationship should not take work...doesn't that just solidify that he is not going to try.....that is where I was taking the thread....


It is a fair question and no I don't think it solidifies anything.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza how do you know who it is?!?!?!??!? I hve give no hints on that one!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OK...so it does not solidify and I have to stop mind reading and over analyzing.....I think I got it now.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I caught it, but since I know who it will be I decided not to comment.


Ha! Yeah, I know too...tough decision there...the young pups begging and drooling for wet t-shirt pics, the wise but dirty old man or the cool cowboy sittin in the back.


Better clean this up or the W is going to put me on permanent lock-down.


WAI, My last and maybe best piece of advice today...you had a long day (and night), get some rest, the brain gets uber confused and fuzzy when you don't sleep. You've got enough "confused" going on. If you are too wired up, try some meditation or yoga, it will help calm you down. It is as important as trying to think all this crap through! Tomorrow is a new day and a new set of challenges. Remember this is a marathon NOT a sprint.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

tron....it is like you know me.....i did not sleep at all last night...I am beyond exhausted and only hope that I can get a good nights sleep...since I wasted a day of work on top of it I need to work double time tomorrow....uugghhh

...and my lips are sealed on my grey guy!!!! You guys can all duke it out!!!!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

whoa tron acting like the cool laid back one when it comes to the wet t-shirt picts. i have 73 pm's form him begging me to push for them (crafty old man using me) nice move tron nice move! well played sir.

hang in there again workingatit, like the great advice you have been given just take deep breaths!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

terrence4159 said:


> whoa tron acting like the cool laid back one when it comes to the wet t-shirt picts. i have 73 pm's form him begging me to push for them (crafty old man using me) nice move tron nice move! well played sir.
> 
> hang in there again workingatit, like the great advice you have been given just take deep breaths!


Perhaps one of us already has the pics......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> tron....it is like you know me.....i did not sleep at all last night...I am beyond exhausted and only hope that I can get a good nights sleep...since I wasted a day of work on top of it I need to work double time tomorrow....uugghhh


It is showing. You were a but fragile today, understandably.

Not a good mindset to make major decisions.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i am really pulling for you workingatit for a quick resolution. my heart does break for you.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Slept a full eight hours....woke up EXHAUSTED. 

Still feel horrible and for some reason today am feeling extra needy. I miss talking to him....I miss hearing him leave for work....I miss his silly sense of humor....and the way him and my daughter laugh every night.

He will be here tonite for a visit. 

I will just want to hug him. But I can't.

I will just want him to say he is sorry for his part. But he won't.

I want him to be able to be the guy he was just a month and a half ago with the flirting and silliness.....but he won't.

I know I have to do for me. I know I need to move on - but keep that glimmer of hope.

But I cannot stand the wall that is there. Yes, there has been one there for a long time - but it got thicker and higher. 

He does not seem to care......

I know the pain will pass.....but for now, it hurts like hell.

I was doing so well the last few weeks - not sure what is going on this week but I hate it.

How can he be so seemingly non-chalant about all of this?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....daughter just so happily told me that daddy got me a box of candy for V-Day. He is coming by tonite.....guess I should get something for him......

I am surprised....but am "assuming" he is doing this more for our daughter than for me....

.....go ahead tell me to stop assuming....

......and now I am unsure with how to be with him here.....I do want to start 180 with him.....so when he is here do I go upstairs....leave them alone.....then I feel like he will think I am being mopey and *****y....but if I sit with them....then it seems like I am desperate to make this work.....I really do not feel lke going out.....

...uuugghhhhhh just want this to end.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

you are making progress wit hthe sleep way to go, going to be more bad day but alteast he is thinking about you to get you chocolates


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

and dont read to much into this i havent even bought my wife anything for Vday (wasnt planning either till i got the riot act this morning


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Terrence you better get her SOMETHING even just a card! 

I just keep telling myself if he really did get me chocolates he did it to look good to our daughter....not because he actually wants to make me happy....

If he can get me chocolates...why cant he text a good morning once in a while?


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...and if I do become a divorcee there is only one guy on this thread I would do 50 shades of grey with....and I ain't sayin' who!


You're welcome. 

:awink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Glad you finally got some rest.



workingatit said:


> I just keep telling myself if he really did get me chocolates he did it to look good to our daughter....not because he actually wants to make me happy....


 I would not read that into it. Accept it for what it is. Men don't usually have ulterior motives...



workingatit said:


> If he can get me chocolates...why cant he text a good morning once in a while?


 I don't know, maybe he is going 180 on you ;-)


Did you ever get the dress for Friday?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I don't know, maybe he is going 180 on you ;-)


OK wise guy - then if we are both going 180 on EACH other and live APART...maybe I am being dumb but I am not sure then how we will ever get back together.

If we are both essentially being stubborn (which has been on of the problems) - how we will see the changes in the other to ensure that things will be different...

Point taken on the chocolate though - you are right....

And yes, I actually landed a great dress from Marshall's for $15 bucks!!!!!! I had been eyeing one up in Nordstroms for $300 - so needless to say I am a happy girl....and the fact it is a size 6 makes my heart sing.....separation has done wonders for weight loss! 

Nervous for tonite...especially since his last text to me ended with "I do not have to justify myself to you"....

I feel like every move I make or thing I do will make such a huge difference....

uugghhhhhh....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

You've got to start living for yourself a bit, sweetheart
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You've got to start living for yourself a bit, sweetheart


I know and I am working on it OT....I do got out once or twice a week with friends...I do a lot of volunteer work (although I have taken a hiatus recently) - am starting to get back to it....I am NOT sitting home feeling sorry for myself or anything....so I hope it does not come off like that....

I am happy overall and content...I do have breakdowns on occasion....but they are getting less and less....

.....I just really miss him...I miss US the way we were when it was good.....just want that back is all.....

....but I am moving on and going forward "as if".....I promise!!!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

workingatit said:


> OK wise guy - then if we are both going 180 on EACH other and live APART...maybe I am being dumb but I am not sure then how we will ever get back together.


Personally I think both doing the 180 would be excellent!

180 is about focusing on yourself and becoming a better person. Not being needy. If both of you do that, you are both progressing and your chances are better. 

Unless this is already DOA - then it would be the nail in the coffin... and rightly so.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Zillard interesting thoughts....I am not sure if that is what he is doing or not....not sure he really knows about 180....but he is definitely keeping me at arms length.....

I do not know if we are DOA or not.....that is what I want to hear from him...I do not know if he is willing to try or is already divorced.....

But I guess my whole struggle is in understanding how both of us pulling away from each other is beneficial...I have read until I am blue in the face about this stuff.....but all I see is two people who are even FURTHER apart then they have ever been - I want someone to hit me over the head so I can understand how that is a good thing.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> OK wise guy - then if we are both going 180 on EACH other and live APART...maybe I am being dumb but I am not sure then how we will ever get back together.


Exactly. Exactly.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Taking time to work on yourselves, good. Shutting out each other, bad if you want a future together.

The rollercoaster sucks but you are doing better today. Hang in there.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

workingatit said:


> all I see is two people who are even FURTHER apart then they have ever been - I want someone to hit me over the head so I can understand how that is a good thing.....


Because if you two weren't living a happy life together. Maybe you can apart.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Because if you two weren't living a happy life together. Maybe you can apart.


But if we can be totally happy apart - then what is the point of being together?

I do not NEED him to be happy....but I want him in my life, I AM happy with my life in all aspects, except for missing him....and counseling has been a huge part of making that happen....

I do not think either of us is happy being apart though....

This just confuses me......I am an incredibly intelligent person...but this stuff makes me feel dumb.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Taking time to work on yourselves, good. Shutting out each other, bad if you want a future together.


EXACTLY! But if he is shutting me out - then I see no chance for R ----- that is kind of where I am at.....I cannot see how if you want your marriage to work...you would do NOTHING to work with your spouse...a simple Hi once in a while or a "how is the dog" when you know they are not feeling good....etc....

He has done NOTHING.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

workingatit said:


> But if we can be totally happy apart - then what is the point of being together?


To share this experience called life! 

Two people happy apart make the best couples. 

Because neither needs the other to be happy. They are both happy people travelling through life together. 

But if the people are miserable when together, it is better to be alone and happy. You could be happy as a clam and still not like the way you are treated by your SO.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> OK wise guy - then if we are both going 180 on EACH other and live APART...maybe I am being dumb but I am not sure then how we will ever get back together.


 A little testy today! Would you say that he is going 180 on you? Maybe he hasn't read or doesn't know about it, but is the principles behind what he is doing, the same? Making self strong, being protective of self, etc.?





workingatit said:


> If we are both essentially being stubborn (which has been on of the problems) - how will we see the changes in the other to ensure that things will be different...


He hopefully has seen the change in nagging, neediness and self reliance already. The rest, sadly enough, he won't be able to see much if he isn't around. And the last 2 days were a setback for you mentally, especially in regards to R. 





workingatit said:


> And yes, I actually landed a great dress from Marshall's for $15 bucks!!!!!! I had been eyeing one up in Nordstroms for $300 - so needless to say I am a happy girl....and the fact it is a size 6 makes my heart sing.....separation has done wonders for weight loss!


Atagirl!!! Look reasonably nice and happy when he gets to the house tonight. Let him give you the chocolates, thank him, tell him you have something to show him, go model the dress for him...and if he likes, tell him your happy about that and happy about your new size 6 figure. Then go to the movies. Small steps, WAI, small steps. I don't believe that true 180 is going to work with H. It might help you, but not the M.

Btw, I lost about 10 lbs. in one week and about 20 over the whole ordeal. The $uck of it all is that I gained it all back and another 10 since. 





workingatit said:


> Nervous for tonite...especially since his last text to me ended with "I do not have to justify myself to you"....


 You were a bit high maintenance and made some demands the past 2 days. You put your foot down and he reacted. He knows unequivocally now what is acceptable and what isn't. You did what you needed to do and did it well. My W approved, said you couldn't have worded it any better. I would just let it go. 





workingatit said:


> I feel like every move I make or thing I do will make such a huge difference....


It won't unless it's negative and so far you've been really good. If you still want him home show him kindness and a happy wife when you get the chance. Don't be needy, don't be clingy and show him that that angry nagging W is gone forever. The new W is someone that is more attractive, that he can respect and that he will enjoy being around. I don't know if I can say it any more plainly. Remember that with H this 30 days isn't to make the M work but to see if he wants to try to stay in it. Give him reasons to stay. You are on display and putting yourself out there for brief yet meaningful periods of time. Take advantage of them and see what happens. It is a hard thing to do.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> He has done NOTHING.


I disagree. Yeah, he is guarded most of the time. Yeah he has walls up most of the time. No, he isn't texting you like you are used to, but he has over the past week or 2. And no, he isn't really being physically expressive with you. But...you remember this:



Wazza said:


> You have a real open talk about how you are both hurt and you think it is a bad thing?
> 
> He has a decade of pain built up. He is starting to talk about it which is the first step in dealing with it and you are worried it isn't all gone yet.
> 
> ...


WAI, It may seem like forever, but that was only 3 days ago and after one of the best weekends you had with H in over a month.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Two people happy apart make the best couples.
> 
> Because neither needs the other to be happy. They are both happy people travelling through life together.


Ok I guess I forgot to look at it in the bigger picture - THIS makes sense. I guess because I already know I am happy without him - but enjoy being with him...it confused me...but he is not a happy person by nature, so that is a whole other issue.....this makes me think.....a LOT!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Remember that with H this 30 days isn't to make the M work but to see if he wants to try to stay in it. Give him reasons to stay. You are on display and putting yourself out there for brief yet meaningful periods of time. Take advantage of them and see what happens. It is a hard thing to do.


This totally makes sense....again - when people word things a certain way it really clarifies things. I think what you said about the 30 days for him to see if he even wants to stay in it is one of the best ways to say it.....

I am not bringing up anything about the other night --- but I know it will be on the back of his mind from the moment he steps in the door....I am not expecting a warm reception....with that one text I know he thinks I am the same old person...

But funny thing is I have NEVER been the jealous type...and never question where he goes or what he does....so I was surprised at the response he gave....

....he just seems so angry at me - although he says he is not...

Everything is starting to get clearer to me though.....guess i just needed to get beat over the head a few times!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I am not bringing up anything about the other night --- but I know it will be on the back of his mind from the moment he steps in the door....I am not expecting a warm reception....with that one text I know he thinks I am the same old person...But funny thing is I have NEVER been the jealous type...and never question where he goes or what he does....so I was surprised at the response he gave....


You think that was jealousy? I am a man and I didn't see that. What I saw is a woman telling her H that one move on his part in the wrong direction and this M is over. That was a warning. A justifiable one too. That and the fact that he kind of told you about his business associates visit in a roundabout way is why he got defensive. I don't think he is angry and I believe what he is telling you. 

IMO, you didn't do any damage this week to the M or H. But, the last couple of days were definitely a setback for you. You saw everything possibly coming unraveled in an instant, you got emotional...it happens. Fortunately the drama played out on this board and in your mind, not between you and H. Be thankful for that. It is good that you had an outlet. 

Know this, if this goes to R, you are going to have to get better control of those emotions. The nagging ***** has got to go. Oh, and I would stop mentioning that woman to H, it is a constant reminder of that part of you that he doesn't like.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You think that was jealousy? I am a man and I didn't see that. What I saw is a woman telling her H that one move on his part in the wrong direction and this M is over.


THAT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER! Since we did this separation with no rules/regulations and never discussed it at all - I had hoped he would understand my text....but the "i do not need to justify to you" hurt like hell....we have always told each other where we are and what we are doing....out of respect....but yes, he did tell me about these guys coming in - but not about going to dinner.....

I just hope he really does see it that same way. He knows I have never been on to question his whereabouts and I really hope my response to him made sense and he understood my concern....

I still hate that we have no "plan" though for this separation...his exact words were "let's give it 30 days and see what happens" - I should have stepped up and asked for clarification....but I think at the moment I was shocked he said that since in October he said he just wanted a divorce and I did not want to push his buttons....



> IMO, you didn't do any damage this week to the M or H. But, the last couple of days were definitely a setback for you. You saw everything possibly coming unraveled in an instant, you got emotional...it happens. Fortunately the drama played out on this board and in your mind, not between you and H. Be thankful for that. It is good that you had an outlet.


And that is why I started posting daily.....it HELPS! If I feel the need to text him...I post instead....if I want to email...I post instead.....it has been a huge help. And I can never thank everyone here enough...the jokes, the beatings over the head until I "get" something...the phenomenal advice....this board has nothing short of a miracle for me....

It is why I stay logged in all day --- good thing web development is my full time job....gives me the chance to be on all the time!!!!

Even reading threads from 2 years ago was amazingly helpful...



> Know this, if this goes to R, you are going to have to get better control of those emotions. The nagging ***** has got to go. Oh, and I would stop mentioning that woman to H, it is a constant reminder of that part of you that he doesn't like.


I AM DONE!!!!!!!!! I have FORGIVEN and that is the key to our problems.....my wall is down....my anger is gone....my "need to understand" has been filled. Between the TAM friends I have made and 2 counselors....the blinders have been removed.....if he does come home....my emotional state will be consistent.....my emotional struggle has lied in wanting to understand something that happened 10 friggin' years ago...now that I reflect back....I sound like a total idiot.....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> This just confuses me......I am an incredibly intelligent person...but this stuff makes me feel dumb.


Intellect seldom, if ever, dictates emotions.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

old timer said:


> Intellect seldom, if ever, dictates emotions.


OT

Where the hell do you come up with these? You are F'ing amazing! Either that or you got a reference book somewhere. How was NOLA? We've got an office over there and everyone always drags a$$ on Ash Wednesday.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> OT
> 
> Where the hell do you come up with these? You are F'ing amazing! Either that or you got a reference book somewhere.


:iagree:

OMG this is perfect. Good I can be intellectually smart and emotionally dumb -- PERFECT!!!

And the next time I get to NOLO you get a hug....or a wet tank top....not sure which....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Actually thought of that one myself. 

A blind squirrel finds an acorn occasionally, lol.

NOLA was great. Went down Friday. Went to several parades Sat, Sun, and Monday (got beaucoup beads, etc - enough for all 8 grandkids tom have a bag full,lol). 

Went to the French Qtr yesterday evening. Left before things got too far out of hand, stayed at my friend's house in Mobile, AL last night. Left early for home this AM so I could make my MIL's funeral service this afternoon.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> And the next time I get to NOLO you get a hug....or a wet tank top....not sure which....


I'll accept both with no complaint...


just the way I roll.

:FIREdevil:


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Ouch. Sorry about your MIL. That sucks. Glad you had a great time though. I have been to New Orleans a few times when I was a corporate event planner and LOVED it. Never been to Mardi Gras - not my thing....but would love to get back down there to see the plantations and more of the beauty outside of the city....I love the architecture and the southern hospitality....great people down south....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LMAO! Me thinks both at the same time would be the best thanks I can give huh?!?!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> LMAO! Me thinks both at the same time would be the best thanks I can give huh?!?!


It would def go a long way. 

Actually, the Mardi Gras parades uptown are a lot tamer than I'd ever imagined - very family friendly. Then you have the French Quarter - diff animal entirely. There are actually no "official" parades in the Quarter, as I understand it.

Yep, MIL was a wonderful lady. I loved her - she loved me.

I just don't care much for her daughter anymore, lol.

.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So he is here....I got a "whats up" when he walked in. 

He did get me a generic happy vday card (no "wife" in it) -- and a box of candy....so that was nice....

Light chit chat about work, the dog and miscellaneous stuff and I came upstairs.....time to work on the detach right?

He talks to me - but he is not warm with me at all....I just cannot deal...and he probably does not even realize how he is coming off to me.....

So upstairs I will stay until he leaves....of course he is probably thinking I am being in "need mode" where I want him to come up - but I really do not. This is really about me backing off and saving my heart......

......he is not letting that wall come down any time soon......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> So upstairs I will stay until he leaves....of course he is probably thinking I am being in "need mode" where I want him to come up - but I really do not. This is really about me backing off and saving my heart......
> 
> ......he is not letting that wall come down any time soon......


Careful. By being upstairs you are not letting the wall down either.

Got to put yourself out there if you want to get anywhere.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I cannot take the hurt of feeling like he wants nothing to do with me....I am just trying to protect my own well being at this point....it may be wrong.....but being down there hurts like hell....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

just got on today sorry things still suck for you workingatit, im all sad for you.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I cannot take the hurt of feeling like he wants nothing to do with me....I am just trying to protect my own well being at this point....it may be wrong.....but being down there hurts like hell....


I know. I have experienced a lot of the same hurt.

From where I sit, he is still trying. Maybe not as hard as you want and maybe not in exactly the way you want, but he is trying. I worry that in his eyes it is you who are cold.

Not trying to beat you up. Trying to help.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well before i came up I offered to heat up dinner for him, gave him his v-day gift and chit chatted....so I think it is a nice split.....I will also be with him all night friday night too for the wedding.....I truly do want him to have some alone time with our daughter too......

Besides he does know I want this to work - I do not know the same from him....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

again not going to even pretend i know whats going through his mind. just do whats best for you


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I went back down for just a couple of minutes and goofed for a few....he just left....I guess he was not going to come up to say bye...i just happened to be walking downstairs....I said bye see you friday....gave him a hug and thanked him for the chocolates and said how much I appreciate them....he did give me a one arm hug.....so that is better than the no arm hugs from the weekend.....

I think it was good....I was friendly.....we talked.....but yet gave him his space......

Friday is the wedding.....so hope we can have a great time.....I hope I can control the emotions since I know I will want to be lovey kissey and I cant......uugghhh....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Hi WAI. I’ve been reading your thread over the past couple of days. I think your swinging between emotions is perfectly natural given the circumstances. My H and I reconciled after a separation, but I remember during the time he was gone, like you, I read into everything he said and did and my emotions were on a wide roller coaster ride. Its hard not be like that to when you care so much and want your marriage back. Everything your spouse does takes on huge proportions.

I agree with those who have said that your H is trying in his own way. I would caution you, like Wazza, about retreating to your room when he is in the house. It could easily be interpreted as either manipulative or as a sign that you don’t want to be around him. I understand that you want him to have one-on-one time with your daughter, but can you not simply go to another room, for example the kitchen and busy yourself there? Or go for a walk. Going to your room looks like retreat (‘I don’t want to be in the same place as you’) or sulking or game-playing (I’m upset. Come and soothe me’).

As for the wedding, I don’t know if you drink at all, but you might want to think about how alcohol can lower one’s defences and inhibitions. Think about how you want to present yourself and walk carefully. (And no, I’m not a teetotaller. Just would hate to see it turn out differently than you want because your defences were down.)

Good luck.


Good luck.


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## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi WAI, 

I've been reading your thread religiously. Your situation is so much like mine, I'm 30, him 36, been together 15 years, two daughters 3 & 10. Instead of an affair, we've been dealing with my husbands chronic illness. It was tough right from the start but in October of 2010 he went into kidney failure and shut down. I tried to be supportive in every way I could but I fell into depression in March 2012. In less than 3 months, I ruined everything. I was horrible to him. Everything you say, I've lived. Now I've been living with H for the last month, but its because I ran into problems and not because we are back together (he moved out in October, though we were separated since July). He constantly asks me if I need this or that. He's gone out 3 times in the month since I've been here and every time, he's come back to bring me beer or wine and gone back out. He cooks supper every night, takes us all out for supper, we grocery shop together, etc, etc... yet, we are not together. He always says he loves me, he cares about me, but I hurt him. 

I read everything into his actions, non-actions, etc... just like you. Almost every post you make, I've felt. I swing from feeling so good to so bad in a heart beat, just like you. There is so many positive things to look at, but one negative (from my perspective) has me saying maybe I should just give him what he wants and give up... lol. I identify with every single thought and feeling you have... so just know this thread helps more than just you.

Sorry to hijack... just had to say this. This thread mirrors my feelings and situation, almost to a tee.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Sorry to hijack... just had to say this. This thread mirrors my feelings and situation, almost to a tee.


You are not hijacking at all! I am so sorry to hear what you have been going through - I think it is harder when there is an illness present......and it is really good to know that there are some who may actually get some help from my thread because of the great support I have had from some really special people!!!!

It is hard to not try and read every single thing....especially when there are so many unknowns.....

Even something simple as he actually ASKED ME A QUESTION last night had me happy...usually I inittiate conversations...so I was thrilled he asked if I took the dog to the vet....

I hope your situations gets better.....keep working on being a better you....ultimately that will be what he wants...at least he is there with you and can see these changes!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Morning WAI. Hope you have a really good day today. Develop some great websites. It is a creative job. Have fun!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Hi WAI. I’ve been reading your thread over the past couple of days. I think your swinging between emotions is perfectly natural given the circumstances. My H and I reconciled after a separation


I LOVE LOVE LOVE hearing this!!! Hope you guys are doing well...I am sure it is an ongoing process.....but it is great you are both giving it that second chance.....

Thankfully I am not much of a drinker...so I will be good at the wedding....I will just have one or 2 drinks and that is it..... 

And you are probably right about the retreating to the bedroom....in the past I did kind of use it as a way to get him to come up so we can "talk"....and this morning I woke up realizing that is probably what he was thinking....although I am so past that at this point since I do not want to even talk.....but he does not know or believe that yet....

Going forward I will not do that....I was going to do some work in my office but my owrking too much was a big problem...and I did not want him to think that I would go back to that...I have been good at being done by 5 or 6pm so I am doing everything I can to not be working after that....

I will have to figure out something so I do not give off the wrong message......

THANK YOU!!!! And let us know how you are doing...how long were you separated etc?!?!? Could use an inspirational story this morning....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I WILL NOT TEXT HIM HAPPY VDAY

I WILL NOT TEXT HIM HAPPY VDAY

I WILL NOT TEXT HIM HAPPY VDAY

I WILL NOT TEXT HIM HAPPY VDAY

I WILL NOT TEXT HIM HAPPY VDAY

I WILL NOT TEXT HIM HAPPY VDAY

I WILL NOT tell him I miss him.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....and now I am thinking of all the times he asked "send me a pic" and I did not..... :-(

I should have been flattered that after 20 years he still wanted dirty pics of me.....and I denied him that too....

I guess today would be a dumb day to surprise him with a dirty pic huh?

The mistakes i have made....uugghhhhh


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

if you really need to text him happry V day you can text it to me instead!!! 

and im listening to you going to get my wife something she deserves it i am a pain in the butt to be married to and i know it. (like she told my aunt once it takes a special woman to marry into this family, aunt laughed her butt off its true she married in also)


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ....and now I am thinking of all the times he asked "send me a pic" and I did not..... :-(
> 
> I should have been flattered that after 20 years he still wanted dirty pics of me.....and I denied him that too....
> 
> I guess today would be a dumb day to surprise him with a dirty pic huh?


NO....DO IT!!! 

You want to show him you've changed...drop the bombshell. It'll be a nice setup for tomorrow night too.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

And remember to give her a GREAT BIG HUG.....honestly that is the best gift I could get today..... 

I did text him I just said "hope you are having a great day"....he did text back a "u too".......just felt he needed to know I DO care...in case he thinks me going upstairs meant I did not want him around or something....

Looking so forward to the wedding tomorrow.....we need this....fun with some of our oldest friends can only be a good thing for us right now.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> NO....DO IT!!!
> 
> You want to show him you've changed...drop the bombshell. It'll be a nice setup for tomorrow night too.


I am totally afraid he will reject it......I totally cannot handle that right now....

...and of course tomorrow "my friend" will make her arrival so I am **** out of luck for gettting lucky anyway......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

..and Tron I am shocked you would say DO IT...I thought for sure you would be the one to say NO WAY!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

wonder if I should respond to his "u too" text with a "it would be a better day if you sent me a naked pic"....

....but then I think it may be too pushy too soon.....although not more than 6 weeks ago he was trying to get me in the kitchen.....but he is like a totally different person now.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I am totally afraid he will reject it......I totally cannot handle that right now....
> 
> ...and of course tomorrow "my friend" will make her arrival so I am **** out of luck for gettting lucky anyway......


Um...how or why in God's name would he reject that??? It is something that he has always wanted. I honestly would love to see his face when he sees it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ...and of course tomorrow "my friend" will make her arrival so I am **** out of luck for getting lucky anyway......


That doesn't necessarily mean that he won't...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL!!!! It never stopped him when we were dating....but its different now.....

Naked pic.....uggh.....I want to but I am afraid......damn damn damn damn damn damn......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I am totally afraid he will reject it......I totally cannot handle that right now....


fear...fear...fear...fear...fear...fear...fear...fear...fear...fear...

Do you control it, or does it control you?

Are you a strong, confident, attractive woman or are you a mouse?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

ok....going to throw on some thigh high stockings with a garter (hope I still have one!) --- and do a waist down shot with a sign that says happy v-day - i miss you.....

Whadda' ya' think?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Do you control it, or does it control you?


....unfortunately it has always controlled me.....I am working on that though!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> LOL!!!! It never stopped him when we were dating....but its different now.....
> 
> Naked pic.....uggh.....I want to but I am afraid......damn damn damn damn damn damn......


If you absolutely can't stand the thought of naked then strike the pose and give him an a$$ shot.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thats his favorite shot not sure how to pull that off without someone to help though....hmmm....

OK off i go.....lets see how this goes.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Good luck!

Oh, and the hyenas around here are going to get into a frenzy, you may have to get a quick lesson in how to use the ignore poster feature. 

Probably should have done all this in PM, Damn...May have to clean all this up after the fact.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and off it goes with a dirty message......ugghhhh what have i done...this is going to go really good or really bad......

Battle my fears right Tron?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

How do you feel?

Sick to your stomach, butterflies, empowered, ashamed, what???


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Sick to my stomach that he is going to see it as the use of "sex" to lure him back.....which is not what I want....but I want him to see that these are things I did NOT do for him and I am aware of that, that even when he asked for a pic I was "too busy" to do something that took literally one minute.....but I do want this to show that I WILL make an effort to do things like this going forward.....

It was the lack of forgiveness that was preventing me from even WANTING to do anything for him.....

His stand offishness has me worried of how he will receive it though....

...but I cannot put into words the gush of love I felt last night when he put his arm around my back....maybe I was imagining it....but it felt different.....good different....I felt like he almost actually leaned into me a bit....but again could be my "wanting to think it will be OK"

I do not feel ashamed....I do not feel empowered....

I think its fear that he will see it in a negative way and push further from me for it......


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

If he sees it that way just explain to him how you feel and why you did it.

Do not apologize for doing something nice or sexy for your man.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> If he sees it that way just explain to him how you feel and why you did it.
> 
> Do not apologize for doing something nice or sexy for your man.


Unfortunately we have this issue of him thinking everything I say these days is a lie....not sure he would even believe me (mind you I have lied to him about 2x in 22 years....and withheld like 2 things from him which he sees as lies.....

I just wish I had done something nice/sexy/flirtatious sooner....

Geez if we can only turn back time.......I think how every trip he took he asked for a pic...and I said no.....why?!?!?! Such a simple thing that would have meant so much to him.....

I almost hope I get no response so I do not get hurt.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Did you use sex as a weapon or means of control during the M? My impressions from you so far are "no". The sex took a nosedive as the relationship fell apart. That is the natural evolution. 

If you used sex as a weapon during the M, well, he might see it in a negative light. But either way, what you showed was someone different, someone bold, someone confident, someone willing to fight, and someone he has wanted all along. Kudos to you.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

No, I do not think I ever used it as a weapon at all. We slowly just stopped having it because "I" had trouble emotionally with it so I was not as open and free as I had been in the past - never wanted to make him happy...and in more recent months I think he started tuning out as well....so it totally lost its appeal for both of us and became 5 minute quickies.....

You are right with that second line.....besides, you are right it was a chance I had to take.....no risk - no reward......we are teetering either way, and if he sees me going through this much effort for him and still wants a D then he is not the guy for me.....there has to be something said for your partner of 22 years to still think you are that hot at 44 years old....

.....I think one of my biggest issues with losing him is the sex....I still find him to be as hot as hell (and I told him that in the text)...and want the sex we USED to have.....I cannot imagine finding someone as hot as he is in my eyes....and I do look !!!! 

My WANT to have sex with him never really went away....it was my heart that prohibited it......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Unfortunately we have this issue of him thinking everything I say these days is a lie....not sure he would even believe me (mind you I have lied to him about 2x in 22 years....and withheld like 2 things from him which he sees as lies.....


That picture is all that he needs to know that this is no lie. It is right there on the screen and speaks volumes.





workingatit said:


> Geez if we can only turn back time.......I think how every trip he took he asked for a pic...and I said no.....why?!?!?! Such a simple thing that would have meant so much to him.....


That is a lot of regret your carrying around. Gotta put it behind you and move forward. But you already know that. 





workingatit said:


> I just wish I had done something nice/sexy/flirtatious sooner....





workingatit said:


> We slowly just stopped having it because "I" had trouble emotionally with it so I was not as open and free as I had been in the past - never wanted to make him happy...and in more recent months I think he started tuning out as well....so it totally lost its appeal for both of us and became 5 minute quickies.....


This has probably happened to most if not all of us on this board. Some of us were able to totally rekindle it with our spouse. I think you can too. Time to follow it up with more tomorrow night. Go to the beauty shop, get your nails done...etc.? You are going to be smokin' hot tomorrow night...be the little coquette with him that you are with all the hyenas around here.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LMAO!!!! But at least the hyenas around here are receptive...no doubt posting a picture here would get me some POSTIIVE attention! 

Now if only I can get that from him......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Does H drink?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Nope....thankfully....one of the things I love about him....of course he will drink tomorrow....but he never drinks around the house...only when out with the guys....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So if he does not respond to my text....what do I make of that? I know he has a crazy work week....so I am not sitting here waiting....but .....of course it will be weighing on my head because I am psychotic like that.... ;-)

And no I will not send anything else....next time I will hear from him will be tomorrow when he picks me up for the wedding....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ok....going to throw on some thigh high stockings with a garter (hope I still have one!) --- and do a waist down shot with a sign that says happy v-day - i miss you.....
> 
> Whadda' ya' think?


I think you should PM a copy to me for quality assurance purposes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Well, it would probably be nice if he was a little drunk tomorrow...not $hitfaced mind you but happy. Lowers inhibitions and make him more receptive.

My guess is that he is either smiling from ear-to-ear or he is totally confused/conflicted and rethinking everything. Both are good!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

old timer said:


> I think you should PM a copy to me for quality assurance purposes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh hell. It has started already...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I think you should PM a copy to me for quality assurance purposes.


You crack me up....but I did away with the garters since I had not stockings....and decided to go with a lingerie (top only) that I bought years ago and never wore sadly......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Well, it would probably be nice if he was a little drunk tomorrow...not $hitfaced mind you but happy. Lowers inhibitions and make him more receptive.
> 
> My guess is that he is either smiling from ear-to-ear or he is totally confused/conflicted and rethinking everything. Both are good!


We will definitely both be happily buzzed....our daughter is staying with a friend overnight too....but i have NO EXPECTATIONS.....sadly we have only had the house alone to ourselves once in 10 years....and I HATE that we are separated and may not get to really enjoy it....

But truth is if he tries...I am all over him......and know I can finally "let loose"......

...and I so hope you are right on the second part there.....I hope my saying how sexy I still find him is a little bit of an ego boost for him.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Doing good.

Now that you have started, keep going. Don't escalate sexiness any further but don't take a backward step.

My wife commented s few months ago that we are having the most sex of our lives, so your best years can be in front of you.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

God I hope so.......I miss sex.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> God I hope so.......I miss sex.


If you mean that, tell him that.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

He wrote back:

"I'm not really sure how to respond to this"

what do I say to that?!?!?!?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

i think i made a mistake....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Doing good.
> 
> Now that you have started, keep going. Don't escalate sexiness any further but don't take a backward step.
> 
> My wife commented s few months ago that we are having the most sex of our lives, so your best years can be in front of you.


Same here. Maybe not the most, but certainly the best!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OMG I just want to cry now. 

This is what I mean I feel like I put myself out there and I get NOTHING back.....

I know everyone keeps saying he is "trying" in his own way - but I am and have always given so much more. 

I try to do something nice, and I feel like crap for it. 

I am done.

I cannot be on this roller coaster anymore.

He is being more than clear in my eyes about what he wants. He wants out but is too much of a coward to say it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> He wrote back:
> 
> "I'm not really sure how to respond to this"
> 
> what do I say to that?!?!?!?


Well...I guess it was confused

My vote: "That you like it, would be nice. You've certainly waited long enough for it."


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> He wrote back:
> 
> "I'm not really sure how to respond to this"
> 
> what do I say to that?!?!?!?


Response.....

"I am sorry for all the years I was too scared to do this. I was hard for me but I know you want it and I am trying."


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron - I just cannot say that......I am making a fool of myself......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> OMG I just want to cry now.
> 
> This is what I mean I feel like I put myself out there and I get NOTHING back.....
> 
> ...


Ok now, put the big girl's panties back on and be strong. 

Just don't send him a photo of them 

No way is he saying he wants out.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> omg i just want to cry now.
> 
> This is what i mean i feel like i put myself out there and i get nothing back.....
> 
> ...



take a deep breath and calm down! Overthinking too much!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

It just hurt like hell to have him respond like that.....I guess I was hoping for no reponse or a flirtatious one....not one that makes me feel like an ass for sending it....

I am trying to be strong....but I feel like its done and he is really just afraid to tell me......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Part of me just wants to end it all and get on with my life with someone who is ABLE to be a nicer person to me....not for nothing...he has this innate way of making me feel like an idiot...

I am not even sure I want to do this wedding with him...I feel like a total ass now....

I think i am getting to a point of "realizing I deserve more" than this...he has as much blame, if not more than I do in the failure of this.....but I am doing ALL the work to try and save it....

I just do not have the energy anymore to continue feeling like this....I am exhausted from all of this.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> It just hurt like hell to have him respond like that.....I guess I was hoping for no reponse or a flirtatious one....not one that makes me feel like an ass for sending it....
> 
> I am trying to be strong....but I feel like its done and he is really just afraid to tell me......


Utter tosh.

You are on new ground, it is unpredictable. But you know what, even if he ends it, you won't die wondering.

And I bet you he won't end it. 

Ok, here's the bet. When you guys get back together, I win and you have to PM me the wet t shirt photo. And in the unlikely event it doesn't work out, I lose and I have to let you PM me a wet t shirt photo. Fair enough?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Part of me just wants to end it all and get on with my life with someone who is ABLE to be a nicer person to me....not for nothing...he has this innate way of making me feel like an idiot...
> 
> I am not even sure I want to do this wedding with him...I feel like a total ass now....
> 
> ...


Your emotions are not your friend. Stop listening to them in such an ethereal way.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza - you are SUCH A GUY..... here I am in tears and you are trying to make me laugh....quit it.....

I wish I could be as positive as you......even if he responded with just a smiley face I would feel better.....

I am still trying to figure out what to write or say....I really just want to say sorry, let's just get a divorce, clearly this will never work.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Wazza - you are SUCH A GUY..... here I am in tears and you are trying to make me laugh....quit it.....
> 
> I wish I could be as positive as you......even if he responded with just a smiley face I would feel better.....
> 
> I am still trying to figure out what to write or say....I really just want to say sorry, let's just get a divorce, clearly this will never work.


But you are cute when you laugh.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

And maybe this is me being a negative nellie ---- but if we DO get back together...I will send you the image I sent him today...how about that....I am just that sure we are done.....you cannot just 6 weeks ago be flirting and fun with me and then now be such a cold heartless ass and be able to say you want to save your marriage.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I am still trying to figure out what to write or say....I really just want to say sorry, let's just get a divorce, clearly this will never work.


DO NOT SAY THIS!


Wazza had it better than i did. It works:

"I am sorry for all the years I was too scared to do this. It was hard for me but I know you want it and I am trying."


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OK - I will send that then.....I have to send something I feel dumb.....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> He wrote back:
> 
> "I'm not really sure how to respond to this"
> 
> what do I say to that?!?!?!?


*"Like a man"*

.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I wrote...

"no reponse needed...I am just sorry that my wall kept me from doing this all the times you asked me to..I took this risk today to show you I am trying and I am changing....that is all...."


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> And maybe this is me being a negative nellie ---- but if we DO get back together...I will send you the image I sent him today...how about that....I am just that sure we are done.....you cannot just 6 weeks ago be flirting and fun with me and then now be such a cold heartless ass and be able to say you want to save your marriage.....


Being dead serious for a sec.....that photo is something very special between you guys. I have no doubt I would find it entrancing, but the thought of how you will feel when you get back together means more to me.

LOL, auto correct picked up on a mis-type in "thoughts" but corrected it to "thighs", how Freudian!!!

You are alright, WAI, this is going to turn out good.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks so much Wazza......I just wish I could be as positive as you. 

His cold shoulder is killing me....how can in 6 or so weeks someone be so entirely different?!?!?!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Thanks so much Wazza......I just wish I could be as positive as you.
> 
> His cold shoulder is killing me....how can in 6 or so weeks someone be so entirely different?!?!?!


Lol, you are repeatedly swinging in six seconds. He's slow!!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, I know he is hurt I asked him to leave....I get that.

I just think he is yanking my chain now though to be completely honest......

......by him saying he is not sure how to respond....I am reading it as why the hell are you sending this we are done.....

Go ahead and call me an idiot......but I think this is a girls natural way of seeing it.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I feel like if I just say let's get a divorce...he will either say OK very quickly or he will say "why the hurry all of a sudden".....

at least then I will have an answer of what is going through his head....right now I am clueless.....

I know it seems childish to think like this.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Well, I know he is hurt I asked him to leave....I get that.
> 
> I just think he is yanking my chain now though to be completely honest......
> 
> ...


Ok, you're an idiot. 

Look it is normal. I have a good friend who went through more or less what you are going through. I showed her your thread, and the first thing she said was how much she remembered (and hated!) the mood swings, reading too much into every communication. So you are not alone.

It was nice when she and her husband got back togther. They are nice people and my wife and I enjoy sharing a meal with them.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I feel like if I just say let's get a divorce...he will either say OK very quickly or he will say "why the hurry all of a sudden".....
> 
> at least then I will have an answer of what is going through his head....right now I am clueless.....
> 
> I know it seems childish to think like this.....


NO. It is childish. Don't do it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> His cold shoulder is killing me....how can in 6 or so weeks someone be so entirely different?!?!?!


Unless you had cheated on him or done somthing totally horrendous, I don't really think it is possible. That is why it is partly an act. 

I feel the same as Wazza that is a special photo between you two. And fyi, the picture I want is one of a happy family at the Grand Canyon in March.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza...and was her husband as much of an ass to her as mine is being to me - with the cold shoulder and such?!?!?!!?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Wazza...and was her husband as much of an ass to her as mine is being to me - with the cold shoulder and such?!?!?!!?


Much worse. Much.

He's a nice guy but they were in an awful place as a couple, for all sorts of reasons. It is clear to me that you guys are almost certain to get back together. Was not at all clear with them.

Much better now, thank goodness.

Lots of marriages go through hard times, but the end result doesn't have to be divorce. It can be greater closeness.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Wazza.....I so wish I could see what you are seeing that gives you that hope when all I see is a guy totally blocking every effort I make...

...I do feel like if he gives it a chance we can be closer than ever.....with my forgiveness there now - it has opened up everything I have been closing off to him (I WANT to make him happy again...I want to do for him...I want to have sex with him, these are all things I have not wanted or cared about in years)...

...5 weeks in counseling has done WONDERS in that respect....we are now working on my "control" issues where I need to sometimes "let go" --- yes I see it and I know I have an issue with it --- hopefully she can teach me how to handle it better.....that and my patience....but those go hand in hand it seems...

I just feel like he is being so resistant to everything I offer up......and on the flip side I do not think total no contact will help us either.....I have not been overly annoying to him...just a few texts a week....2 emails in the almost 4 weeks.....maybe 2 phone calls.....and I try to give him some distance when he is here so it does not seem like I am always there.....but the few times we have had the communication it has been so cold.....

I guess my expectations are so out of whack with reality.......

Hearing about your friend does help....so tell her thank you.......

.......and I never wanted ANYONE to be more right than me than you at the moment with your thinking we will make it....(yeah, I always have to be right too --- got that in check these days too though)......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> totally horrendous


does kicking him out of his own him qualify as totally horrendous? :-(


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> does kicking him out of his own him qualify as totally horrendous? :-(


Not in my opinion. 

Piss him off royally? yeah. 

Make him want to treat you the way he does? yeah

Make him want to divorce you? It'll get him thinking about it that is for sure, but I just don't think it is going to move that fast. I would be surprised if today didn't cause him to hit the brakes. 

I have a good feeling too...have had from day 1.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Sigh...

Your going to hate me workingatit ...but I kept telling you this one sided 'you working at it' and he doing nothing will never work. And it's not. ...and your resenting him. Spot on. My suggestion to you was that you stop and leave him the frick alone and just do your own thing so you stop doing this roller coaster and hurting yourself. Your setting yourself up for rejection at every damn turn with this guy. I support you trying to make your marriage work but not this way...

Every day your trying to still 'control' his side of things...doing and saying things to get a response or reaction out of him your just not going to get. He knows this. You've done everything but leave him alone for a significant amount of time...and when you do 'try' and leave him alone...you 'need or want' to text him a 'thank you' for a this or that...you always find an excuse...or need to ask him a question or blah blah blah... 

What your doing isn't working. He's an unresponsive passive aggressive idiot. He's mean. Of all the things he could have said about the pic you sent...he sent "I don't know how to respond to this"...I mean c'mon...enough already...what a fking dirt bag! Question is...when are 'you' going to have enough? 

Your on a 'fix it fix it fix it fix him fix him fix him fix him fix it fix it fix him fix it fix him'....life style...consistent with nothing more...and he's not budging... and won't be. He's not even getting help with his issues. 

My opinion...you need to knock this off and get off your fix it fix him merrigoround and get a grip and tell him to fk off. Every day it's the same dam thing. 

He's ....not....working....at....anything. He's never going to stop being as azzhole to you. He is what he is and your trying to get him to come home to be a full time azzhole in your face. 
He's ...not...working...at...anything. 

A one sided 'fix it' person does not make a marriage work. He's a d*ck.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Before I forget....




old timer said:


> "Like a man"


Another zinger...:smthumbup:

OT, We need to go out and have a beer some day.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Stella Moon said:


> Sigh...
> 
> Your going to hate me workingatit ...but I kept telling you this one sided 'you working at it' and he doing nothing will never work. And it's not. ...and your resenting him. Spot on. My suggestion to you was that you stop and leave him the frick alone and just do your own thing so you stop doing this roller coaster and hurting yourself. Your setting yourself up for rejection at every damn turn with this guy. I support you trying to make your marriage work but not this way...
> 
> ...


Stella,

It may indeed come to that. But I don't think we're there yet. And your perspective is a bit jaded at the moment. Give them a chance. 

Not sure if WAI has the patience or stamina to hang on to this for more than another month or two and I have no doubt she will make that decision if she has to.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Your on a 'fix it fix it fix it fix him fix him fix him fix him fix it fix it fix him fix it fix him'....life style...consistent with nothing more...and he's not budging... and won't be. He's not even getting help with his issues.


And you are 100% right.....and this is why I am so close to throwing in the towel....and I know it seems like I am being so fix it fix him......but I have given him space.....granted...maybe not weeks at a time....but given our situation I did not want to over do it either...

Part of his frustration with me and our marriage has been my essential ignoring of him for years....no affection...no interest....no spending time with him.....that is on me.....so by me taking these small steps - I think it is showing him that I have taken that wall down....and can be different...

Now you are right in that he is being a **** back....and I am NOT making excuses for that....I do not think I deserve that...that is why I am starting to question myself the last couple of days.....

I am NOT ready for him to come home....but I was hoping by these small efforts I am making that he would begin to warm up to me....

But it is not happening.....which is why I am more confused than ever....

.....rest assured he will not come home until I know that he has changed as well......

i do live my life....i do have fun....I am overall happy.....I am not needy or clingy - i just love this guy, faults and all.

I will not be one of those that is in separation limbo for 6 months, that makes no sense to me. So by me taking these steps it is my effort to get him to a place where he can say, yes I want to make an effort with you - or no, I want a divorce.

I may make that choice for him a lot sooner though.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> And you are 100% right.....and this is why I am so close to throwing in the towel....and I know it seems like I am being so fix it fix him......but I have given him space.....granted...maybe not weeks at a time....but given our situation I did not want to over do it either...
> 
> Part of his frustration with me and our marriage has been my essential ignoring of him for years....no affection...no interest....no spending time with him.....that is on me.....so by me taking these small steps - I think it is showing him that I have taken that wall down....and can be different...
> 
> ...



YEP.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

You know what Tron and Wazza.....

I think it is really time for me to say screw you. Stella really has a lot of valid points.

A lot of my wall was because he never made me feel like he was truly sorry for the affair....yes, I get that he was now - but for him to treat me this way knowing that all of this is because of the hurt he caused me.....that is what I cannot deal with.

If someone hurts you - they should feel remorse. I am not convinced he ever has.

He is not getting help - I am.

He is not making efforts - I am.

You will never convince me he is hurting from all of this - but I am.

I cannot "move on with my life" with this hanging over my head. I am a black and white girl. Either we are together or we are not.

He is doing everything he can to keep me at arms length, and truthfully I cannot do it anymore and I do not deserve it.

I think with all my heart canceling the wedding tomorrow is the best thing - I am just not sure how anything good will come of it, and I can guarantee it will end with me being hurt by his lack of attention.

I think it is time to let him know I am done.........

...and I am saying this WITHOUT being emotional......

I love this man with all my heart --- but he has never loved me back enough....he cannot - he does not love himself enough.

I deserve better.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> You know what Tron and Wazza.....
> 
> I think it is really time for me to say screw you. Stella really has a lot of valid points.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm, slap in the face time in the nicest possible way.

You are there, I am not.

But by your own admission you have treated him like crap for years, pushed him away, told him to leave several times, and then he finally snaps and says, ok, I'm gone. And you want to get upset with him because HE DID EXACTLY AS YOU TOLD HIM TO and then doesn't come back the second you click your fingers, and instead says, let's take 30 days?

Not working at it. Open your eyes, he is trying to break a destructive cycle in your marriage that, by your own admission you are at least partially helping to cause. Maybe wholly. 

You are making progress, but unless you can see the truth of what I wrote above, which is taken pretty much directly from your own words, then I have to ask whether you are really working at it. Whether you are really fixing you. Whether you are good enough for him.

You complain about him changing over six weeks. Go through and count the number of times you are changing in your thread. Lot less than six weeks there.

Suppose you act on your thoughts. Send him a text saying, it isn't working, I deserve better, let's divorce. Is that what you want to do?

Now, turn it around. Suppose he sent you a naked picture earlier today, then a nice message about "I am trying I am changing" then not long after "I want a divorce." How would you take that if he did it? And you are contemplating doing it to him. Are you sure you deserve better?

Sorry, I like Stella, but I reckon she is dead wrong here. I see many positive signs. Many. 

You need to own your crap. We can support you but you need to steady down.

Here for you whatever you decide to do. And I know a lot of what you write is venting, and I am ok with that.

But calm down girl.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Before I forget....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't drink anymore...


Don't drink any less, either. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> But by your own admission you have treated him like crap for years, pushed him away, told him to leave several times, and then he finally snaps and says, ok, I'm gone. And you want to get upset with him because he doesn't come back the second you click your fingers, and instead says, let's take 30 days?


But keep in mind during these years he has not been great to me either...when I needed him to "hear" me about my being upset about the affair- he pushed me away telling me he did not have to explain himself....when I tried to communicate on any level...he would shut down....no matter how nice or calm I was.....

You are right in that my expectations of time are out of line...and my expectations are not necessarily of him coming back in 30 days....

But with as many times I have said I am sorry lately and took responsibility for the issues I HAVE CONTRIBUTED to this marriage --- I would expect something from him....just a hey thank you for seeing that or something....

He has never truly said he was sorry to me for the hurt he has caused.....he has not taken responsibility for anything...he calls me a liar....he has lied about much worse....but wants me to feel like a horrid human...

I get some of his behavior....and some of it is warranted.....but when you know deep down that someone loves you and has done everything they can for you - then apologize and take responsibility for their actions, and put their heart out there to make it better....

....and you keep stomping on that heart.....

...then you do not deserve that heart.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> But keep in mind during these years he has not been great to me either...when I needed him to "hear" me about my being upset about the affair- he pushed me away telling me he did not have to explain himself....when I tried to communicate on any level...he would shut down....no matter how nice or calm I was.....
> 
> You are right in that my expectations of time are out of line...and my expectations are not necessarily of him coming back in 30 days....
> 
> ...


Remember, my last post was meant to be a slap in the face, to get your attention. 

Any time a marriage gets into trouble, both partners have almost certainly played a part. I am not saying everything is your fault.

I also said before I am very optimistic about your chances and I meant it.

I can see that you are working, but I see you have more to do. I can see he has more to do.

But, I reckon you want him, and all the pushing away stuff is just you trying to curl up and protect yourself when you get scared. You can look at yourself and decide whether I am right there, but that is what I think.

Let us have your back for a bit, let us be your sounding board, your venting place, cos that's what we are here for. And have the courage to hang in there!

You can do it. If you really want to.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Are you sure he really knows deep down that you love him? Are you sure?

I reckon he's uncertain. I reckon that is part of the problem.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....you keep saying you see signs....I just do not see any.....all I see is a man who continues to keep me at arms length....no matter how hard I try.....

I am not expecting him to come running home...I understand he is skeptical of the changes and thinking that if he comes home it will be the same.....but I do not think my expectations of him wanting to reach out to me once in a while is too much...or to show a little appreciation for ANYTHING I do is out of line.....

I am absolutely good enough for him....and it took me many years to realize my value and get this level of confidence.....I may seem a little "over emotional" on this thread...and yes, I do tend to get so.....but it has always been because of the strain of this relationship and that fact that I have never felt like he truly loved me....why did I feel this way? Because his inability to really "connect" with someone on an emotional level....I do not need a lot.....a hug...an arm around the shoulder....holding my hand.....these are things I have not had in many many many years....so maybe I am yearning for them more than ever because of the forgiveness I have found....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Are you sure he really knows deep down that you love him? Are you sure?
> 
> I reckon he's uncertain. I reckon that is part of the problem.


I cannot imagine he does not know I love him. I say it. I have written it. I have texted him a naked pic and told him how much I miss him. When he leaves I make a point to hug him whether he wants it or not....I have ALWAYS been the one putting more out there than he has.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ....you keep saying you see signs....I just do not see any.....all I see is a man who continues to keep me at arms length....no matter how hard I try.....
> 
> I am not expecting him to come running home...I understand he is skeptical of the changes and thinking that if he comes home it will be the same.....but I do not think my expectations of him wanting to reach out to me once in a while is too much...or to show a little appreciation for ANYTHING I do is out of line.....
> 
> I am absolutely good enough for him....and it took me many years to realize my value and get this level of confidence.....I may seem a little "over emotional" on this thread...and yes, I do tend to get so.....but it has always been because of the strain of this relationship and that fact that I have never felt like he truly loved me....why did I feel this way? Because his inability to really "connect" with someone on an emotional level....I do not need a lot.....a hug...an arm around the shoulder....holding my hand.....these are things I have not had in many many many years....so maybe I am yearning for them more than ever because of the forgiveness I have found....


What you are going through is normal.

And here again "I have never felt he truly loved me"...you claim the right to be uncertain, yet "when you know deep down that someone loves you and has done everything they can for you"...he's not allowed to be uncertain? Even when it was you who kept saying "Get out!" ?

You want a sign? How many times have you threatened divorce? And has he done it yet? Why do you think not? Until today, it wasn't the girly pictures....maybe he likes you?

Maybe he likes you.

Enough to think you are worth pushing through all this for.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I cannot imagine he does not know I love him. I say it. I have written it. I have texted him a naked pic and told him how much I miss him. When he leaves I make a point to hug him whether he wants it or not....I have ALWAYS been the one putting more out there than he has.....


What are his love languages? This is an area where people come unstuck all the time. Mrs Wazza and I certainly did for a while.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Are you sure he really knows deep down that you love him? Are you sure?
> 
> I reckon he's uncertain. I reckon that is part of the problem.



WAI, Do you remember this?



workingatit said:


> He said "I figured you wanted out of this marriage years ago"....I asked him what made him say that...*he said because of the way I made him feel like **** all the time and how I continued to make him feel guilty all the time.*
> 
> :-(
> 
> ...



This is so much a part of why you are in the place you are right now. Why would this man say such a thing if he did not mean it? It is not something someone would say to just be mean. This is pain screaming out. Wazza's instinct on this makes perfect sense. This man doesn't believe you love or want him, regardless of what you say. He has 10 years of history like this that proves it.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

I think the world of Stella, as well, but IMO its not time to throw in the towel. I think on a better day, Stella would agree that a long term marriage is deserving of 30 days minimum effort. 

What I'd suggest for the wedding:
#1. Be hot
Be friendly and slightly seductive toward H on the way there. 
At the reception:
Be hot. Gravitate toward a few attractive guys through the evening - be friendly and slightly seductive to them (in plain sight of H, of course). If H sees other men obviously attracted to you, it could change the entire dynamic between you two. it would also do your self esteem a world of good. 

Given your fear of rejection, you'll probably find it difficult to approach the other guys - you have to will yourself to do it. Fight through your fear and just DO IT. 

H will be itching to get in those big girl panties by the time the reception is over. 

Game-playing? Sure. Game IS a game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> How many times have you threatened divorce? And has he done it yet?


I always assumed it was because of our daughter to be honest. I guess I had a glimmer of hope when he said in October he wanted a divorce but then was still here ( I figured he may have said ti to hurt me) until I kicked him out....he really has not said it since.....

But I guess because I am unsure of his TRUE feelings for me it makes me a pessimist in thinking he would only stay for our D.

Honestly I am not even sure what his love languages are anymore...I would guess words of affirmation and physical touch....but when I touch him know he locks up or tells me I do not have to....

Tron PM'ed me and told me basically to cut the crap...you and him have been there...you know what you are talking about and have both been successful - I need to shut up and listen to you both.....so I will buck up ...wait the time my husband asked for and after that time if I do not get a "yes I want to work on things" then I can file....so I will do that.....

But I am also taking Stella's advice and just dropping back and am NOT putting too much out there anymore....I will be happy, easy going and all that jazz --- but no more "efforts" on my part anymore...this is what makes me weak.....rejection.....so i will not put myself in that position anymore.....

The only time I get like this is when I feel like he has rejected me.....it HURTS......

.....and as my girlfriend reminded me ever so nicely...."well do you think he hurt when you rejected him"

touche'


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Old Timer, Tron and Wazza ---- I can never put into words how thankful I am for the 3 of you!!!!!! You have saved me from making really bad choices...you have made me really "think" about things I have said or done.....you have kicked my ass and kept me in line when I needed, yet all with a gentle hand ---- even when you wanted to beat me silly.

You guys are truly amazing, patient and 3 of the most wonderful people I have had the pleasure to "meet" online.....

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> But, I reckon you want him, and all the pushing away stuff is just you trying to curl up and protect yourself when you get scared. You can look at yourself and decide whether I am right there, but that is what I think.


100% right.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I always assumed it was because of our daughter to be honest. I guess I had a glimmer of hope when he said in October he wanted a divorce but then was still here ( I figured he may have said ti to hurt me) until I kicked him out....he really has not said it since.....
> 
> But I guess because I am unsure of his TRUE feelings for me it makes me a pessimist in thinking he would only stay for our D.
> 
> ...


Vent with us. Not with him right now. We are here for you.

By the way, after my wife's affair I stayed for the kids. Would be divorced otherwise. But we still stayed together and we fixed the marriage. It is great now. The kids are adults and I am still here.

Point is that good marriages go through bad times but it doesn't have to be the end.

I suspect Stella and I would totally agree that you should work on getting your roller coaster of emotions under control and at least strive for a facade of stability. So taking a but of what we both say is a good thing IMO.

(Stella, feel free to correct me here!)


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

Workingatit - you are starting to sound a bit like me - DON'T, see where I got to!?

a)DO NOT cancel the wedding! Dress up, get pretty, have fun. It does not have to be about him, do it for you and show him what a catch you are!

b) DO NOT mention a D. There are no shortcuts here, you may end up in D - at least make it a decent journey.

c) PATIENCE. I think you want things in an instant, be it black or white. It does matter whether it is black or white and whether you invest your pateince in it makes a difference.

You H sounds a LOT like mine! Is he an intravert? Does he like spending time on his own? Not terribly affecitonate? I am not in a good place right now but when I was, it was only me that was making positive changes and only after a long while did I notice something. At first, my H would not even ride in the same car with me! He was that upset for me kicking him out or threatnening (over and over gain over a period of time), just yesterday he said those things don't evaporate quickly (and we've been in sort of S for nearly 3 months...)


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I WILL NOT get emotional in front of him......I can 100% GUARANTEE that....I have learned to keep that in check in front of him...even Sunday when he came up to talk...I wanted to break down...but did not shed a tear......

EVERYTHING I think or say - I come here first....sometimes by the time I post the thought or want fades...and then you guys smack me around....

I would not be where I am without you guys......

On a typical day I really am fine....it is his rejection that makes me crazy.....but you guys remind me why I kind of deserve it....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

old timer said:


> What I'd suggest for the wedding:
> #1. Be hot
> *#2. PM hot pics to TAM buddies.*


Fixed it for you OT.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

NewLife2013 said:


> Workingatit - you are starting to sound a bit like me - DON'T, see where I got to!?
> 
> a)*DO NOT cancel the wedding!* Dress up, get pretty, have fun. It does not have to be about him, do it for you and show him what a catch you are!
> 
> ...


:iagree:


And NewLife,, I am really sorry you had a setback this week. I just don't know what to tell you or how to help, besides go back to the drawing board and start over, if you have the heart and gumption to do it. You simply haven't made enough progress with yourself to be ready to get back into the fray.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

NewLife2013 thank you for your insight...I am taking my favorite Valentine our for dinner...but will read your story when I get back...yes my husband is very much an introvert -- very social and affable at work but more of a loner than most.....no, he has never been incredibly affectionate...but I never needed a lot so it worked for us....

I guess in some ways I am being unfair to him because I want more from him now in terms of affection than he has really ever been able to give even when we were great....

I will go to the wedding....and I will make the best of it....just worried about keeping those emotions in check.....

off to Friendly's for dinner.....  At least the D makes me happy!


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Oh for fkd sake people...did I say throw in the towel? No. What I'm saying here and pointing out is that he's making no effort...not working...and she's doing all the work. Just wanting her to back off a bit...stop doing stuff that sets her up for rejection! 

Pointing out he's not even worthy of her efforts in my opinion. I didn't indicate to give up and and scream divorce...geez. Again...merely pointing out how she's trying so hard on this one sided relationship and all he's doing is being an azz...it's just not fair to her. 

He does keep her at arms length he does keep her in limbo he does keep her second guessing he does not communicate and he does say hurtful things and in no way is he showing he's even missing her her or wanting to make changes in himself. 

It's simply not fair to her and its hurting her. What's wrong with her backing off and doing more focusing on her TOTAL self? And less of HIM?

Glad I'm so liked...lol...but I didn't say throw in any towel...again...pointing out he's being a d*ck about this whole thing...I don't care if she asked him to leave...he's being selfish.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

You are loved, Stella.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

workingatit said:


> NewLife2013 thank you for your insight...I am taking my favorite Valentine our for dinner...but will read your story when I get back...yes my husband is very much an introvert -- very social and affable at work but more of a loner than most.....no, he has never been incredibly affectionate...but I never needed a lot so it worked for us....
> 
> I guess in some ways I am being unfair to him because I want more from him now in terms of affection than he has really ever been able to give even when we were great....
> 
> !


Hm, I though there was a lot in common when reading your thread - my H is at his absolute best at work. Bc he is an introvert, all those interactions at work exhaust him. He is also great with friends but cannot do too much socialising as it is again exhausting. 

As for affection, i know where you are coming from. It is udnerstandable you want more now and for him it is the opposite, he avoids it as a) it's his way of telling you things are not ok and by being affecitonate they won't get fixed and b) affection i.e. connecting in that way is sending him even further into his confusion land. Don't know whether this makes sense...

You need to be happy with whatever little you get. It really hasn't been that long!
I got a finger and grabbed the whole arm, bit my a**...

Have fun tonight!

*Thron* - I have the heart to fight but not sure whether H will get over my complete breakdown... that was his major complaint about me. Somehow I feel that's it...and things were so good recently. I will update tomorrow when I see him next. He's away tongiht, what a lonely Valentine's...had a pizza and some chocks with my S at home


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Oh for fkd sake people...did I say throw in the towel? No. What I'm saying here and pointing out is that he's making no effort...not working...and she's doing all the work. Just wanting her to back off a bit...stop doing stuff that sets her up for rejection!
> 
> Pointing out he's not even worthy of her efforts in my opinion. I didn't indicate to give up and and scream divorce...geez. Again...merely pointing out how she's trying so hard on this one sided relationship and all he's doing is being an azz...it's just not fair to her.
> 
> ...


Hmmm...maybe I misunderstood this bit 



Stella Moon said:


> tell him to fk off. Every day it's the same dam thing.
> 
> He's ....not....working....at....anything. He's never going to stop being as azzhole to you. He is what he is and your trying to get him to come home to be a full time azzhole in your face.
> He's ...not...working...at...anything.
> ...


But I still like you


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am sitting here at dinner thinking how mych I want to tell him fck off....but I made tron and wazza a promise...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

NewLife2013 said:


> Hm, I though there was a lot in common when reading your thread - my H is at his absolute best at work. Bc he is an introvert, all those interactions at work exhaust him. He is also great with friends but cannot do too much socialising as it is again exhausting.
> 
> As for affection, i know where you are coming from. It is udnerstandable you want more now and for him it is the opposite, he avoids it as a) it's his way of telling you things are not ok and by being affecitonate they won't get fixed and b) affection i.e. connecting in that way is sending him even further into his confusion land. Don't know whether this makes sense...
> 
> ...


Thinking of you Newlife.

A lot of us guys give so much at work and need to crawl into our man cave a bit at home. We do it partly to show love for our wives by being good providers. I have a luctrative and successful career, but I can assure you I am there because I need to provide for my family.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Although wazza...still wondering what u r seeing that I am not that makes u think there is a rats ass of this working....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I am sitting here at dinner thinking how mych I want to tell him fck off....but I made tron and wazza a promise...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


fck off or fck you?

Second one is better 



Keep the promise for me. Means more than a girly pic!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Although wazza...still wondering what u r seeing that I am not that makes u think there is a rats ass of this working....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seeing him through your words.

Seeing your heart.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I am sitting here at dinner thinking how mych I want to tell him fck off....but I made tron and wazza a promise...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





workingatit said:


> Although wazza...still wondering what u r seeing that I am not that makes u think there is a rats ass of this working....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I am thinking that H is truly going to have a lot more to think about tonight than you.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> fck off or fck you?


clearly if I said fck you - I would get rejected....that would be JUST what I need....I have put away any expectations of him touching me tomorrow...I am not even asking for a dance....I will be hanging with the girls the whole time....

....and Wazza I will absolutely keep my promise......I know you and Tron both think there is hope here when i do not ....... and I know you want to see how this plays out - and I know you are routing for us...and it means the world to me......I just wish I had your confidence......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

D told me tonite she has has asked him several times when he was coming home....she said his response is always "i wish i could"....

now I know that has nothing to do with me, I made it clear I want him home.....so I can only take that as he wants nothing to do with me.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Seeing him through your words.


clearly this is the point that confuses me....a guy who will not email me, call me or text me - unless I go first. The one or 2 times I spoke to him on the phone I felt like I was bothering him.....

I guess I am missing something that you are seeing then - because all I see right now is a man who wants NOTHING at all to do with me.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> D told me tonite she has has asked him several times when he was coming home....she said his response is always "i wish i could"....
> 
> now I know that has nothing to do with me, I made it clear I want him home.....so I can only take that as he wants nothing to do with me.....


I think that we have come back around to self preservation.


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

workingatit said:


> clearly this is the point that confuses me....a guy who will not email me, call me or text me - unless I go first. The one or 2 times I spoke to him on the phone I felt like I was bothering him.....
> 
> I guess I am missing something that you are seeing then - because all I see right now is a man who wants NOTHING at all to do with me.....


I wish I understood this earlier or in a way it is easier to understand it through your example - don't take it personally, this is not about you it is about him. He is relfecting on things and being tuned in with you is creating white noise... You have to think long term!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

that is kind of what i though tron....

OK...so with all this issue about him being an a** to me....I guess what really bothers me....that even though I may have pushed him away so to speak...no sex...no time...no want to make him happy --- I NEVER stopped talking to him....I was never "cold" to him or made him feel like he was bothering me -----we went into "friend" mode....

......I guess that is where this hopeless feeling comes from.....I would NEVER do to him what he is oding to me.....even after he cheated....I never not contacted him......

.......this part is harder to explain I guess....makes more sense in my head....but I would never give him the cold shoulder like this.....well...not on purpose anyway --- I feel like he is doing things ot hurt me and that is childish.....

I cannot see being purposely so cold to someone you even care about....I could not do it....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> .......this part is harder to explain I guess....makes more sense in my head....but I would never give him the cold shoulder like this.....well...not on purpose anyway --- I feel like he is doing things ot hurt me and that is childish.....
> 
> I cannot see being purposely so cold to someone you even care about....I could not do it....


Not that you aren't busy enough, but maybe you should spend a little time reading some of the other threads around here for reasons why people would go cold in a situation like his. It has a lot to do with trying to detach. It has very little if anything to do with trying to hurt you.

And you probably would and will if this goes to D.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> *..that even though I may have pushed him away so to speak...no sex...no time...no want to make him happy --- * I NEVER stopped talking to him....I was never "cold" to him or made him feel like he was bothering me -----we went into "friend" mode....


You have no idea how deeply it hurts a male to be on the receiving end of all that bolder stuff I guess. The two halves of this bit simply cannot be true at the same time, even leaving out how throwing him out fits with friend mode. You have to own how badly you have treated him to deal with it. Sorry, but it is basic and deep what you have done.




workingatit said:


> ......I guess that is where this hopeless feeling comes from.....I would NEVER do to him what he is oding to me.....even after he cheated....I never not contacted him......
> 
> .......this part is harder to explain I guess....makes more sense in my head....but I would never give him the cold shoulder like this.....well...not on purpose anyway --- I feel like he is doing things ot hurt me and that is childish.....
> 
> I cannot see being purposely so cold to someone you even care about....I could not do it....


But you did. You did.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I guess Wazza and Tron I really do not comprehend the level of hurt I have inflicted......that is the short of it I guess....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

......if I could detach now I would....I just think for the next couple of weeks totally detaching will only do more harm than good.....given what our issues are......

......if only I had known that dealing with this would bring more pain than the actual affair itself I would have done things differently for sure.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I guess Wazza and Tron I really do not comprehend the level of hurt I have inflicted......that is the short of it I guess....


And he is incredibly hurt.........

And protecting himself, curling up in a ball........



So why do you think he hasn't filed, with all that pain?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I guess Wazza and Tron I really do not comprehend the level of hurt I have inflicted......that is the short of it I guess....


My W has the same problem.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....and tron how did she win you back....do you have a story here I can read....not sure I read yours or wazzas --- trying to read everyones tonite...I just read NewLife2013s story which is a LOT like mine...thankfully I have held it together though in front of him and have not asked about us at ll....NL2013 - I am wishing good things for you.....hang in there and you NEED to do 180 now.....for YOU.....no more asking about the future.....I have been really good about that...you can do it too!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron and Wazza...you have no stories to read!!!! You two are inspirations and should share stories so others can learn and be inspired....

Tron .... would love to hear your story and what she did right to make you realize she was different......


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

WAI, so you're gonna hang out w the girls tonight?

Guess you didn't like my suggestion?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL OT! I loved your suggestion...the problem is all the guys there will be married....and that is not a road I want to go down....honestly I do not think he would even notice anyway if I flirted....nor do I think he would care......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Tron and Wazza...you have no stories to read!!!! You two are inspirations and should share stories so others can learn and be inspired....
> 
> Tron .... would love to hear your story and what she did right to make you realize she was different......


Summary of mine in my profile.

Her affair was 1990. I don't have a thread since I am ok now. I am happy to answer questions or write a longer summary if it helps, but can't right now.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I just read that part Wazza....I would think getting over an affair from a mans persepctive is even harder. Did you guys separate? How long? Did you act like my husband at any point.....if so what did your wife do to win you back.....curious for the "rough" story.....

You seem so happy now....I am sure it was not easy......but you are 2 special people.....


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ....and tron how did she win you back....do you have a story here I can read....not sure I read yours or wazzas --- trying to read everyones tonite...I just read NewLife2013s story which is a LOT like mine...thankfully I have held it together though in front of him and have not asked about us at ll....NL2013 - I am wishing good things for you.....hang in there and you NEED to do 180 now.....for YOU.....no more asking about the future.....I have been really good about that...you can do it too!!!!


Thanks WAI! I will see how it goes tmrw when i see him for the first time after my breakdown. I did 180 in the past and it did not work, he was just more distant and did things on his own. Things were much better when I was avaiilable, kind and intersted in him. That's when we started doing things together again. Well until my build up of 'why can't he make some steps in the same direction' sort of breakdown...

I think it is ok to speak about all sorts of things - it's just that the timing has to be right. We had some good future talks recently, well he started it and I just listened chipping in here and there...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I just read that part Wazza....I would think getting over an affair from a mans persepctive is even harder. Did you guys separate? How long? Did you act like my husband at any point.....if so what did your wife do to win you back.....curious for the "rough" story.....
> 
> You seem so happy now....I am sure it was not easy......but you are 2 special people.....


Will add something more detailed in next 24 hrs. Meantime you didn't answer why your husband hasn't divorced you if he is so hurt.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> You have no idea how deeply it hurts a male to be on the receiving end of all that bolder stuff I guess. The two halves of this bit simply cannot be true at the same time, even leaving out how throwing him out fits with friend mode. You have to own how badly you have treated him to deal with it. Sorry, but it is basic and deep what you have done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WAI,
Men's basic needs you went cold on: intimacy, sex, being wanted, respected, appreciated


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza ---- our D. that is the only reason. 

He said in October he wanted a divorce....he said there is nothing left and she will be better with 2 happy separate parents than us together.....

But he never started it. Why? He admitted why in one of our more recent discussions....because he never had the guts. Now that he is out of the house....I just do not see him coming back.....it took him a LOT of courage to leave.....

I would bet my life that when this 30 day rquest is done - he will be getting a regular apartment.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

The hardest part for him was to leave......he did that.....he has nothing left to fear. He has been out of love with me for a long time....he is just not the kind of guy to forgive....

I think I noted somewhere how I said I have finally forgiven for the affiar...I mean TRULY forgiven....why cant you forgive for not telling you about the business debt....

his response "I am not you I cannot forgive a liar"

......ironic isnt it......

....does that sound like a man who has any interest in saving this?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Tron and Wazza...you have no stories to read!!!! You two are inspirations and should share stories so others can learn and be inspired....
> 
> Tron .... would love to hear your story and what she did right to make you realize she was different......


I shared the first part of my story with you over the weekend. I may save the second for when you R. 

Can't do it tonight for obvious reasons. Out with W right now and don't want her to get jealous


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

NL2013 --- remember the 180 is NOT ABOUT alienating him or anything...it is about making YOURSELF stronger....I think you are confusing it with no contact....I am not doing no contact with mine since I do not think it is wise for us....but I am continuing working on doing a 180....I do go out with friends....I do do my charity work....I am reading more....I am looking into going back to college.....that is 180...just doing for me to make myself feel complete....it has really helped me a lot......I have made huge progress in a short amount of time...


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron give that wonderful wife of yours a big hug for me and tell her THANK YOU for her help in all of this.....


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You have no idea how deeply it hurts a male to be on the receiving end of all that bolder stuff I guess. The two halves of this bit simply cannot be true at the same time, even leaving out how throwing him out fits with friend mode. You have to own how badly you have treated him to deal with it. Sorry, but it is basic and deep what you have done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and she should be punished for life? she's more than owned her 'stuff' man...she's even getting help! HES DONE NOTHING! and continues to do NOTHING! 

Helloo....look at what she's putting herself though! What part of all this CRAP has she NOT owned? I luv you guys too...but WTF! She's doing all she can do consistently...daily...to the point of humiliation! She's setting herself of for rejections by him instead of taking care of herself! She's making and has made changes and he's done....wait for it...wait for it.....

nothing. 

She does NOT need to go on feeling guilty and punishing herself for her sins man. He's a fking tard. I've had it with his antics and behavior. He sits back and dangles himself in front of her knowing she's trying so hard...knowing shes hurting...knowing she's out getting counseling and seeking and sought help...and he's done....

wait for it...

nothing. 

He's a tool. And you guys...instead of encouraging her to take a damn break in 'chasing' this tool...your encouraging her to continue to get bxtch slapped by this moron daily. 

She needs to take a step back and STOP. ...so she can regroup and think! She needs to leave him the hell alone. (fine go to the wedding but make some damn decisions after that for for fks sake stick to them) ....

yea self preservation? She sound like she's preserving herself to you? She's hurting...the girl...needs a break from the drama...

the tool....needs...to grow up and figure out what he wants...he's not even subject to miss her...he's not even 'owning' his own mess...he's even being an azz...

am I really out of line here? Am I really the bad guy here? 

if she gave herself some dam 180 time...after 'seeing' what you guys are encouraging and what she is doing...is CLEARLY NOT WORKING! :slap::slap::slap:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Tron give that wonderful wife of yours a big hug for me and tell her THANK YOU for her help in all of this.....


She says you are most welcome and Happy VDay.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Stella - I love your no nonsense bull **** approach....and I TOTALLY TOTALLY get where you are coming from. But please rest assured...although I may seem a little needy on here...that is not the csae.....I am moving into acceptance that this may be over...I AM doing 180 and do quite a bit for me and my D.....I am not sitting by th ephone and waiting for him to call or email.....

I have friends and a great network of support -- he does not....I am getting help --- he is not......I have hobbies and do charity work that makes me feel good --- he does not....

I am in a MUCH better position than he is to be honest......the fact that he sits in a room everynight in a strangers home is actually something I feel sorry for him for.....

Yes, I will go to the wedding.....and I will have a great time...

but rest assured......I am NOT putting anymore out there.....

....and if after the 30 days he asked for he cannot commit to working on this WITH me....

....then we are done.........

I am stronger than I may appear here.....

I am not making excuses for him at all....for as much as he may be acting like an a** right now....he has a LOT of issues to deal with....not just about this marriage...he has harbored guilt for many things over his life.....he is a guy with a lot of pain who trys to act like his world is fine.....and I know he has depression......and I am all he has.......it is not easy to leave someone you love like that....

But I will not let this go on for long.....I promise you that.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and for what its worth -- he does not know how upset all of this is making me....he has been seeing me be strong....non emotional and upbeat....yes, I sent a pic....and an occasional text.....but for all intensive purproses....he sees a girl who is going along just fine....I have not asked him to come....I have not begged him or cried to him....I say when he is ready to talk he knows where I am....and that is the demeanor I will maintain....


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

He is not worthy of you or your efforts. I have zero respect for him. 
One of two things need to happen. 

You need to realize he's not worthy and divorce him. (yea 'now' I said it) 
Or...

He needs to start 'acting and doing' things to save this marraige like a big boy. 

I'm off my soap box.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

That is where I am Stella......I am totally with you...and the guys on this forum have told me the same for the most part.....to take a step back.....every day gets easier.....remember you have been going through this for a while I am only 3 weeks in.....and it is a 22 year relationship.....I am happy with the strides I have taken and do not regret anything I have done so far....

......but now I step back from the whole damn thing.....and what will be will be.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Stella - I love your no nonsense bull **** approach....and I TOTALLY TOTALLY get where you are coming from. But please rest assured...although I may seem a little needy on here...that is not the csae.....I am moving into acceptance that this may be over...I AM doing 180 and do quite a bit for me and my D.....I am not sitting by th ephone and waiting for him to call or email.....
> 
> I have friends and a great network of support -- he does not....I am getting help --- he is not......I have hobbies and do charity work that makes me feel good --- he does not....
> 
> ...


This is EXACTLY right and the way you need to be.

Let me ask you a hypothetical. What if he says that he would like to come back, but that if several months down the road, things don't work he doesn't think he has the strength to leave again and you are stuck with this man that you just can't live with any more, or he still doesnt want to be married to you. What are you willing to do?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Not really sure Tron......but truth is if he did come back I do not see us not working.....we have always gotten along well.....so the base is there.....it is the dmaageof the walls that is preventing us from working....he just does not see it as simple as I do......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Changed the Q.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

still the same answer.....but he aint coming bacck so i do not need think that far ahead!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

just got on today so sorry for the bad day workingatit big hugs from me.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

for the record i always said do what your gut says, sorry if gave bad advice


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> and she should be punished for life? she's more than owned her 'stuff' man...she's even getting help! HES DONE NOTHING! and continues to do NOTHING!
> 
> Helloo....look at what she's putting herself though! What part of all this CRAP has she NOT owned? I luv you guys too...but WTF! She's doing all she can do consistently...daily...to the point of humiliation! She's setting herself of for rejections by him instead of taking care of herself! She's making and has made changes and he's done....wait for it...wait for it.....
> 
> ...


You're not the bad guy but I disagree that she's doing it all and she's doing nothing.

I think she is seeing things that she hasn't sorted.

He is still there and still communicating.

Remember he is not here, we are guessing at his side.

Doesn't mean he should get off scott free.

And I do think she needs to play a little cool, which I think you are implying as well.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> still the same answer.....but he aint coming bacck so i do not need think that far ahead!


How do you know? New info?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Wazza ---- our D. that is the only reason.
> 
> He said in October he wanted a divorce....he said there is nothing left and she will be better with 2 happy separate parents than us together.....
> 
> ...


At our worst I stayed for the kids. Turned out ok.

I dunno how much is the daughter and how much it is you.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> am I really out of line here? Am I really the bad guy here?
> 
> if she gave herself some dam 180 time...after 'seeing' what you guys are encouraging and what she is doing...is CLEARLY NOT WORKING! :slap::slap::slap:



Precisely why I suggested she yuck it up with some other guys at the party tonight.

Even if it doesn't get H off the pot, some attention from a few other guys wouldn't hurt things for her, IMO. Mebbe you gals are wired differently, but attention from some attractive females sure takes my mind off my STBX.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

You asked about my separation. My H was gone for four months, although it seemed like an eternity. After 32 years of marriage, he was someone I didn’t know. The husband I thought would never, ever have an affair, had one. The husband I thought would never leave me, left me. 

As I said in my other post, my emotions swung widely. Every email from him either raised my hopes to the highest heights or dashed them to pieces. I read and re-read into every word. 
I wanted him so badly, but at the same time I knew that I had to take care of myself and begin to move on. I did the 180, responding in a friendly way to his emails, but not initiating contact unless it was about our daughter or the house. I did this, not as a ploy to try and win him back, but to protect my emotions and to know that I could go on without him.

You have received so much good advice. As I was catching up today, something Stella Moon said stood out:

'Every day your trying to still 'control' his side of things...doing and saying things to get a response or reaction out of him your just not going to get. He knows this. You've done everything but leave him alone for a significant amount of time...and when you do 'try' and leave him alone...you 'need or want' to text him a 'thank you' for a this or that...you always find an excuse...or need to ask him a question or blah blah blah...’

I respectfully don’t agree with all of her post, but in this paragraph, I think she has hit the nail on the head. Stop trying so hard, WAI. It is hurting you. You have told him how you feel. Leave it with him. Be friendly, be interested, but don’t overdo. No more naked pictures. Show him that you have changed. By letting him see every up and down, you are not helping your case. Let him see a strong, confident woman whom he will want to be with. 

Hold your head high even when you are feeling low.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> You have received so much good advice. As I was catching up today, something Stella Moon said stood out:
> 
> 'Every day your trying to still 'control' his side of things...doing and saying things to get a response or reaction out of him your just not going to get. He knows this. You've done everything but leave him alone for a significant amount of time...and when you do 'try' and leave him alone...you 'need or want' to text him a 'thank you' for a this or that...you always find an excuse...or need to ask him a question or blah blah blah...’
> 
> ...


Great post, Frostflower


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> You have received so much good advice. As I was catching up today, something Stella Moon said stood out:
> 
> 'Every day your trying to still 'control' his side of things...doing and saying things to get a response or reaction out of him your just not going to get. He knows this. You've done everything but leave him alone for a significant amount of time...and when you do 'try' and leave him alone...you 'need or want' to text him a 'thank you' for a this or that...you always find an excuse...or need to ask him a question or blah blah blah...’
> 
> ...


Good post. Except fortunately H hasn't seen any of the internal conflict that it has taken you to get here. 

You put it all out there. I think you already have shown him you've changed. It is indeed now up to him. If it isn't enough then it wasn't meant to be and he is a fool.

Tonight, you go to the party looking good, feeling good, fun, happy, lively, friendly, complimentary, strong and confident. But most of all you are the best possible you that you can be. Like Ff said. Hold your head high. You have done great!


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## mc1234 (Jun 9, 2012)

WAI, I have been following your thread and it is very similar to what my H and I were going through! Like wazza and Tron, I can see lots of positives and like you, I have gone through the rollercoaster of emotions. 

Although we did not separate, H lived in the spare room for many months. H said he too wanted a divorce and had enough of my controlling and anger. I recognise a lot of your H reactions and I see someone who loves you, but is protecting themself.

I too went through IC and discovered how much I treated H like c*** and did not realise he put me on a pedestal. I did everything you are doing including the pics to get him back and had the regrets too! H found someone he could talk to about our M. he denies an EA but I saw the signs and that was the 'kick' I needed.

At the time, I didn't see how my behaviour affected him. But he took it for most of our M. The main reason my H kept himself at a distant for a lot longer than 30 days was as he said 'he needed to be sure that if he gave himself completely to me again, we would not go back to the M we once had. H said he would not cope if that happened again.' ie me being controlling and treating him like c***

I thought that H did not care, but he since told me he did care, too much, that was why he kept his distance. He wanted me to want him and show him that I really love him and not because I didn't want a divorce.

Nearly a year down the line, I have my insecurities still but we are building a different M, one with more affection and communication with each other.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks everyone for everything.....I am absorbing every angle of all this that you are telling me and will use all of this advice going forward....

.....again I AM in a good place.....if we should divorce I do know I WILL be ok. It is not what I want - but yes, I will live.




> 'Every day your trying to still 'control' his side of things...doing and saying things to get a response or reaction out of him your just not going to get. He knows this. You've done everything but leave him alone for a significant amount of time...and when you do 'try' and leave him alone...you 'need or want' to text him a 'thank you' for a this or that...you always find an excuse...or need to ask him a question or blah blah blah...’


And this is so not true ---- like i said I may have texted him 1 or 2 times this week with a "Hi" type text (I did one Tue and then the one yesterday).....any other texts were NEEDED for our D or our financials.....

I do not think once or twice to just say "hi" I am thinking of you is wrong.....this is a guy who thought for YEARS I did not want to be with him.....I do not think totally removing myself is a good thing....I have called him only ONCE since he left....I have sent 2 emails......

I think I am giving him plenty of space......

And the few texts I have sent have not been to get a response - actually sometimes I wish he would not....I just want to let him know I am thinking of him......given his feelings I believe this is a GOOD thing.....

There may be a few texts I WANTED to send...but I came here, posted and then the text was never sent.....but it is natural to want to reach out more at this stage.....I think I have done a pretty good job of giving him space....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> How do you know? New info?


Nope no new info...just my heart telling me..

...like you said in a recent post...you are seeing positives I am just not seeing....he has already said on one occasion to not take his being nice as him wanting this to work....so I guess I am listening to that.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You asked about my separation. My H was gone for four months, although it seemed like an eternity. After 32 years of marriage, he was someone I didn’t know.


I just read through your thread and I am SOOO happy for you....it is good to see you guys putting it back together and it sounds like he really does love you....

......I hope I have a similar happy ending.....

...wishing you many years of continued love and happiness!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

You seem to be in a good place today.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You seem to be in a good place today.


I would not say "good" - complacent maybe ---- I am terrified about tonite....I know I am going to want so much more than he will give and it will hurt me so much - but I know I have to keep the happy face on......

....I am losing hope quickly of this being saved......I know what you guys have told me over and over and have heard and listened to every word.....

.......but I just think I know him well enough to know he is done with this already. He is just going through the motions and trying to be the "nice" guy.....

I actually setup and appointment with an attorney next week to get a consult.....time to take care of me.....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

Dont think to much about tonight GO HAVE FUN and dont worry, just another day just another night. dont read every little body signal in fact dont read anything into anything. go have fun thats it thats all you need to expect.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Oh I plan on having fun...lots of old friends there we have not seen in a while so I will have plenty to keep me occupied....


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

if you get really stressed just think about johnny depp naked that will fix it (i know it works for me, lol)


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

I'll wager there will be a single man or two in attendance. Work it. When they look your way (which they will, cause you're gonna be looking hawt, remember?) look them straight in the eye and give them that smile that says: "Yes, I see you looking, and I like it...come hither". 

This behavior my not come easily for you, you have to WILL yourself to do it. You'll see it gets easier every time. 

Don't sit in the henhouse commiserating w the other W's. Have yourself some fun, don't worry what H is doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I just read through your thread and I am SOOO happy for you....it is good to see you guys putting it back together and it sounds like he really does love you....
> 
> ......I hope I have a similar happy ending.....
> 
> ...wishing you many years of continued love and happiness!


Thank you, WAI. That means a lot.

When I quoted Stella Moon’s words, I didn’t take ‘control’ to mean actually trying to direct your husband’s actions and feelings. I think that when you do or say some things you are hoping for a certain reaction. That’s natural. We all do that. But obviously we cannot ‘control’ how another person will respond. Look at what you hope will happen when you do or say something before you do or say it. Is it something you want to do because you hope to get a certain reaction? I know this was an isolated example, but when you sent that picture you said that you hoped he would see what he was missing. You had no control over how he would react. Maybe he would have realized what he is missing (although he already knows what you look like). But maybe he would have seen it as a ploy to get him back, or as a type of harassment, or as a sad attempt to get his attention. I’m not saying that any of these is what he actually thought. I don’t know and neither do you. I’m trying to say that things can be taken many ways, and not always in the way we intend. And, as much as you know him, you don't know how he truly responds in his head and heart. Be careful of what you do and say.....not to the point that your actions become stilted.....just be aware of the possible ramifications. The occasional email to let him know you are thinking of him is innocuous. Naked pictures likely aren’t. Going to your room when he is over has a history. You said that you would do that to get him to come and talk (I have done that too, by the way). When you do it now, it may appear as a ploy. 

Sorry if this sounds like criticism. I don’t mean it to be. I just worry that you may inadvertently push him away. 

Have fun tonight. Knock ‘em dead!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

First, I do not TAKE ANYTHING as criticism...we are all in the same boat and I know we are all trying to help each other!



> I know this was an isolated example, but when you sent that picture you said that you hoped he would see what he was missing


Mind you the image was not at all sent to remind him what he is missing...the purpose was to show him I am changing and trying....he travels a bit --- and so many times he has asked for me to "send a pic"....I always said I was too busy..or just wrote it off...I never filled that need for him...why? because I was still feeling angry and had not forgiven him for the affair....I did not want to do anything to make him happy....and i knew he wanted a pic, so I purposely did not want to give him that pleasure..

I should have been flattered he asked..instead I was resentful.....

...so by sending it....I was trying to show him that I have forgiven...and that I am trying to do better at filling those needs.....

You are DEAD ON about the "going to my room" thing and do realize that is just something I can not do anymore at the risk of giving the wrong idea.....I would go there to sulk during our fights....and I do NOT want him to think that is the case anymore...so I will either got to my office (which is downstairs) or stay with them.....I am just torn on giving them time alone...that is why I sometimes go upstairs...my bedroom is my comfort zone....

I WILL be pulling back.....a lot.....I am coming into acceptance that this is really probably over.....and need to move forward as such for my own sanity....

He has a room rented until the end of the month....so I would imagine he would need to make a decision as to whether to rent for a longer term or come home and work with me on this ----- if he shows he has not interest in working together at this....I will be filing for a divorce.....

But the next couple of weeks will be contact free......I am done doing all the work when this was a 50/50 breakdown....

But I WILL HAVE FUN TONITE!!!!!


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Pics or it never happened tonight.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I will see if I can get one of us --- or at least me!  Get the feeling he will be on the other end of the room most of the night....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

You know what, I wouldn’t take his extending the room as a sign that he doesn’t want to work on the relationship. He may honestly need more time. It took years to get to the point you’re at. Don’t put a deadline on fixing it. 

I know you can’t live in limbo, but I don’t think you’re at the point where there is no hope.

Definitely talk to an attorney. Find out your rights. But don’t move into a divorce while you are still swinging between emotions. Fight for your marriage, even if it seems you are the only one doing it. Then, if things don’t work out, at least you will know that you did your best and you can walk away with your head held high.

Hard as it is, give it time.

Hug.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I will see if I can get one of us --- or at least me!  Get the feeling he will be on the other end of the room most of the night....


He may be on the other side of the room, but he may be looking at you.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

FF that is the one thing EVERYONE has been great about telling me....my lack of patience is my worst enemy. 

It is the avoidance of him that is what makes me just want to close the door and move on......the lack of reaching out to me in anyway...although Wazza and Tron have both stated that his coming to talk to me on Sunday WAS him reaching out.....

I m struggling with not getting a "reach" in the way I want...like a text good morning....or hi....or something "nice".....I do not want his only effort to be talking about the relationship...

For some reason every single person on this thread has said they see some hope....and yet I am blind to that. But I guess it is because I am in it.

I am only talking to the attorney to figure out how mediation works and what the legal aspects are for divorce in our state. I have no intention of formally filing until April.....we have a vacation in March that I want to get through on the best of terms...

....but with all my heart I think the distance is doing more harm than good....we grow further apart every day......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Get the feeling he will be on the other end of the room most of the night....


If so, will that be because of him or you? I know you feel like you have to pull back for your sanity, but isn't this the 1st of a couple dates that he was talking about on the day you started this thread? Would you treat a "date" like that? What if he was Johnny Depp?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I reread my whole post this morning. 

You know what I realize.

I am the worst possible pessimist there is. Now I know what to address in my next counseling session.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> What if he was Johnny Depp?


...if it were johnny depp we would not make it to the wedding.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> If so, will that be because of him or you?


It will be because of me.....sorry Tron, I am doing everything I can to avoid any rejection tonite......so I will not be putting myself out there at all.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I reread my whole post this morning.
> 
> You know what I realize.
> 
> *I am the worst possible pessimist there is. * Now I know what to address in my next counseling session.


Yeah, just a little. It's ok though we will work on that from this end too. Try and get you back on the right track.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

_'I m struggling with not getting a "reach" in the way I want...like a text good morning....or hi....or something "nice".....I do not want his only effort to be talking about the relationship...'_

Honey, this is what I meant by control. It can’t be done, and you are killing yourself trying and feeling miserable when it you don’t get the reaction you want. 

Take what you do get, like the Sunday talk, and celebrate it. 

Now, having said that, tomorrow, email him in a light-hearted way and let him know how much you enjoyed being with him at the wedding. (You WILL enjoy it, if it kills all of us here on TAM!). Remind him that dating is how you got to know each other in the first place and that you would like for both of you to get to know each other again. Suggest (and I emphasize the word) that perhaps the two of you could go on a date sometime. Leave it at that. Don’t beg. Don’t propose a time and place. Just suggest.

Dating was one of my stipulations when my H and I considered reconciliation. The affair and the separation had changed us both and we needed to see if there was still something there to build a relationship on. Don’t tell your H that! Keep it light and noncommittal.

As for tonight.....I totally get the fear of rejection. But it will cripple you. Make yourself look fantastic. Feel fantastic, even if you have to fake it. Don’t anticipate rejection or acceptance. Just do, not for him, but for you.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

FF great advice. I am hesitant to ask for a date outside of tonite....when he said lets see what happens after 30 days...I asked then if we can go on a date or 2 -- he said "maybe" later in the timeframe....

Again, it comes back to me being tired of being rejected....I feel like if he wants to try and save this he will ask me to go out.....

Maybe that is wrong?

He knows I would be willing...so he knows he will not face rejection.....me asking and getting the answer I do not want will just hurt....

This is where I think it just wont work...I have to much fear to do anymore...and he is not doing anything....

...and I get what you are saying by "control" now...I was viewing it from a different angle.... 

I am not miserable or upset anymore that I do not get these things....to me it just solidifies that there is not much left on his side.....

My take could be wrong of course....it is just how I feel.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> _'I m struggling with not getting a "reach" in the way I want...like a text good morning....or hi....or something "nice".....I do not want his only effort to be talking about the relationship...'_
> 
> Honey, this is what I meant by control. It can’t be done, and you are killing yourself trying and feeling miserable when it you don’t get the reaction you want.
> 
> ...



Good post FF. WAI, Please remember this: Tonight, you go to the party looking good, feeling good, fun, happy, lively, friendly, complimentary, strong and confident. But most of all you are the best possible you that you can be. *That person isn't going to run off into the corner and hide.*

I just hate to say this because I want to stay positive for you...but when I read what you just wrote about rejection, that was the 1st time in 3 weeks that I got a sinking feeling in my pit of my stomach. 

What FF says about dates is 100% true. 

I am going to get on my soapbox now for anyone reading this thread.

*Date nights and couples weekends are a big f'ing deal!!!!!!* I don't know why some people just don't get this. It is a chance to talk, reconnect and rekindle the fire without the distractions of home, kids, pets, bills, tv, whatever!!!

Off my soapbox now.


WAI, by your own admission, this isn't something that you prioritized and frankly were not even interested in sharing with your H. You have not spent the night away from your D since the day she was born. Are you interested now? 

I can't read your husband's mind and I don't know if he meant what he said 3 weeks ago or whether he was just trying to be nice. From this chair, he said it, that is all I have to go on. I guess you already know my 2 cents...treat it like a real date as much as you can. If you go running off to the other side of the room and leave him alone for the night, you just confirmed again that he isn't wanted and nothing has really changed. If he remains distant, try and keep a good balance and just make it a priority to come back to him occasionally, look at him, whatever you need to do, to show him the interest is there on your end. That's all. Join him by his side when he joins a group and starts talking to people. If he looks willing, get him on the dance floor. You are his wife. Try to act like it. It shouldn't be that difficult. 

The is just my inner pessimist talking...but what if H is in a good mood today? He had a lot of good stuff to look at last night!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

NM


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well considering he just told me he thought it would be better if we took separate cars....I think it is safe to say we are done.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Well considering he just told me he thought it would be better if we took separate cars....I think it is safe to say we are done.


Not a good sign, I agree, but not necessarily done from his perspective.

Did he say why?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Not a good sign, I agree, but not necessarily done from his perspective.
> 
> Did he say why?


I did not ask...I don't care..I even threw out an I miss u and get "thats nice"....I would never so thet to him...he is making divorce look a lot netter...I don't deserve this ****
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Well hells bells, I guess you gotta go be that person without him tonight. :smthumbup:


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm just shaking my head...

Wanting to hug you workingatit...

And wanting to kick him in the balls....

Just sayin'...

He's a jackazz at every turn...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

You said a little while ago you were a pessimist. I would say rather that you are an emotional roller coaster. Right now you simply cannot trust your emotions.

Now, it's perfectly normal, but you need to get it under control.

Of course there are some bad signs there. Whenever a couple separate there are bad signs. But do a comparison. You read Frostflower's thread. I can think of a whole lot of things in her story that are worse than yours yet she and her husband are back together and it is working.

Frostflower gave you a piece of advice I think is very good. Talk to a lawyer and start thinking, but do not rush into action and do not keep trying to control him.

I think you should commit to the 30 days before making a decision. And I think you need to own that you kicked him out. It is not reasonable to expect him to return as soon as you call.

A question for you. The emotional roller coaster you are on is terrible, and here is a good place to vent. But it always makes things a bit volatile. How much of a firecracker are you in real life? How volatile are you?

The husband who wants separate cars tonight is the same one who was asked point blank whether he wants a divorce and has not said yes. Iirc, Frostflower's husband actually started the divorce process, and they came back together.

This whole thing is a marathon. Stop treating it like a sprint.

Thinking of you tonight. Hang in there. Be strong. And vent to us of you need to but be calm with him.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> I'm just shaking my head...
> 
> Wanting to hug you workingatit...
> 
> ...


Actually kicking would be bad advice.

Thinking about it and imagining doing it might be fun though!

Be calm, confident, radiant and beautiful. Do not let him see how you are inside.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Pull up your boots and knock 'em dead tonight! W and I giving you a big group hug from Texas.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

But yet...when I was just on the bed putting lotion on he had no problem picking up my skirt to see if I had underwear on...which idid not....WTF
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks guys....I do not have temper so to speak....he has pushed be enough a few times to bring it out though....I am more emotiinal...keeping everything under control right now though.....not reacting to anything he says...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

He's at your house????

WTF. YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT!

Go Johnny Depp on his A$$ right now! JK...well maybe not


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I thought you guys might have been texting or something. 

Well the panty thing is interesting. Maybe you should go commando.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron said:


> I thought you guys might have been texting or something.
> 
> Well the panty thing is interesting. Maybe you should go commando. Holy hell if my W ever did that I would be a blubbering mess.


I did go commando...lol.

We did drivr together...he did say I look nice.....but he also ssid we should have put a plan in place for tonite....we r just here as friends....he seems out of place even with his friwnds of 30 years...he is different...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Actually kicking would be bad advice.
> 
> Thinking about it and imagining doing it might be fun though!
> 
> Be calm, confident, radiant and beautiful. Do not let him see how you are inside.


I wasn't giving her advice. 

I was stating what I would like to do.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

where is this wedding if your going command i may just crash it


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I did go commando...lol.
> 
> We did drivr together...he did say I look nice.....but he also ssid we should have put a plan in place for tonite....we r just here as friends....he seems out of place even with his friwnds of 30 years...he is different...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WAI, he looked under your dress, he said you look nice, you went in the same car after he said you should go separately. He feels the need for a plan.....because he is worried about jumping back in (pardon the expression) too soon. He is unsure about where he wants your relationship to go. This is good news! Get out there and live it up. Just don’t expect anything and you won’t feel hurt. 

Tell us later how he is different,


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Keep your eye on the big picture.

Your goal at the end of 30 days is to make a decision to keep trying, or divorce.

It seems obvious that he is torn and unsure. That augers well for reconciliation being a possibility.

Work on yourself. Have a plan. Even if you reconcile, make the plan one where you stand as an independent person. Define the terms in which you and your husband share a life as equals.

You have inflicted a lot of pain on each other over the years, but you also have a lot of history and good times, otherwise you wouldn't be there.

Pulling for you tonight!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So far so good...he did ask me to dance.. and has just got ysa roomat the hotel for the nite....I have been keeping dustance...and did find.One single guy who sermedti like me....  I thinkhe noticed...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> So far so good...he did ask me to dance.. and has just got ysa roomat the hotel for the nite....I have been keeping dustance...and did find.One single guy who sermedti like me....  I thinkhe noticed...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wahoo!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Just remember....no expectations, no pressure. Stay calm. Keep smiling. And enjoy!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Sorry. I keep thinking of more things. 

And if something happens, don’t ask what it means. Think about NOW, not the future. Its not the time.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> So far so good...he did ask me to dance.. and has just got ysa roomat the hotel for the nite....I have been keeping dustance...and did find.One single guy who sermedti like me....  I thinkhe noticed...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:woohoo:
:woohoo:

Saying a prayer for u girl!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Bank the positives as sustenance during the hard times......

Oh yeah, and WHOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

News?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I think no news in this case is probably excellent news. 

C'mon man you really want them to interrupt what they got goin on to respond to us???


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

You and I could sit down here and spend a couple hours writing out tips to help them out. They're probably just a bit rusty and out of practice.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

oh there was no rustiness going on - it was awesome.....we did not even get back to our room until almost 4am...and left the hotel at 8am.....I am home now...just picked up our D and he is upstairs sleeping.....

I kept my distance most of the night...spent a while talking to that one guy....I did peak at my husband once or twice and did notice him looking....husband an i were friendly to each other of course....and we checked in every so often --- but for the most part we spent the time apart...

When we first got there he had asked how long the reception was I said I was not sure, why.....he said he did not want to be there all night....so I was totally blown away when he suggested a room a couple of hours after we got there...

Room had 2 beds...we used one....at one point he said "this will complicate things" (meaning s**) --- I said no it wont it is just s** ---- and I was able to totally enjoy myself for the first time with him in years.....it was more a night of foreplay than actual se* --- which i think was better for us both.....

It was a great night. I went in with no expectations....I have no regrets......he made a few comments throughout the night that clearly showed me he is very confused.....but it is great that we can still have fun together....

I still do not hold high hopes of R at this point though....

His attitude did change after about an hour of ebing there...when we first got there he seemed so far away from his old friends....almost like he did not fit in anymore...it was kind of awkward......but he was his old self not too long after I noticed that...

....all in all a great night....tons of laughing....hours of touching and foreplay.....great friends.....good food....

oh and during the ceremony I of course teared up a bit...especially about the part where "communication is important in a marriage and without that your marriage will not last" ---- the ceremony talked about marriage and what it means....wonder if that gave him food for thought.....

THANK YOU everyne for your support yesterday.....and today I am sure he will leave around dinner....but we will just be chilling around the house....actually going to nap now.....4am nights are a killer on a 40 year old!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Glad it went well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

WAI

I am so glad you had a great time! You need to follow up with Frostflower's date request pretty soon. You know..."I enjoyed your company, i really look forward to doing that again soon..."




workingatit said:


> Room had 2 beds...we used one....at one point he said "this will complicate things" (meaning s**) --- I said no it wont it is just s** ---- and I was able to totally enjoy myself for the first time with him in years.....it was more a night of foreplay than actual se* --- which i think was better for us both.....


Is this true for you? I realize that at least for last night what you said cleared any tension that might be there and allowed you guys to just get on with it. Good baby step. But, on an emotional and intimate level you understand that what is going to keep you guys together long term has got to be much more, yes?

If it felt that good and you enjoyed yourself that much, at some point it really becomes important that you share that with him. It does complicate things, but hopefully in a good way.

I don't think I need to tell you that you need to reinforce to him that everything that went on this morning felt better than it has in forever and that he did great, right? Stroke his ego just a little.

W suggested you wait on him a little later on and with no bra on...just what she said...I know I like it. She says you've baited the hook, and gotten him to nibble....gotta hook him and slowly reel him in so you guys can get to work on the M together instead of just you. 

I have a few other musings I wanted to share, but may do that in PM later.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Way to go.....


*Keep Working At It!*


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Is this true for you? I realize that at least for last night what you said cleared any tension that might be there and allowed you guys to just get on with it. Good baby step. But, on an emotional and intimate level you understand that what is going to keep you guys together long term has got to be much more, yes?


ABSOLUTELY!!!!! I am NOT using sex as a tool or a way to bring him back - last night was purely for my own selfish needs....but without that damn wall and lack of forgiveness for the first time in I do not know how many years I was able to really enjoy him...there was not a lot of kissing or hugging....I think we both knew we wanted it, but for it not to be "too emotional" so to speak...it was perfect.....

But because that lack of physical touch has been prevalent for so long - and I KNOW he took it personally......I think last night was awesome for his ego...

I did run out this morning got him an egg sandwich...he was not feeling too good....could be the alcohol - so I thought I would be nice!!! 

But today is good....have not talked to much....but it just feels comfy....we are both exhausted.....and the kid is a ball of energy of course.....

He did peek in while I was taking a shower too --- he has not done that in ages either......usually I would kick him out, obviously not today....

He is leaving in a little while so I will be sure to just give him a hug and thank him for a great night.....no pressure......it was just nice to have "him" back last night....the guy I know is in there and is just hiding behind all this anger and confusion....

again....I have NO expectations based on last night...I am being real and know that we have more work to do...one night is not the answer to our problems, and I am sure now he is more confused than ever......but man it made me feel amazing so it was more than worth it!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

Glad yesterday was good for you, you deserved a good day!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Soooo happy for you, WAI!

Now, go slow. He is confused. Remember, no expectations. Just take what he can give at this moment. Don’t over-think and try to read into every little thing. 

Confusion needs space and time to figure things out. Be there when he wants you to be, but don’t push.

I hope you are napping in the same bed!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

wish we could nap in the same bed ---- but we are in the same room at least....someone has to be with the kid....  He is on the chair sleeping I am on the couch playing cards with my D.

I have not read into ANYTHING since the taking of 2 cars incident yesterday.....after that I realized I am just going to make myself insane.....so not reading anything anymore......

We had a great night....I hope we have more.....but I know he needs more time to figure out what he needs......I am offering up no pressure anymore.....I have my plan in my head of what I can take in regards to this separation...and will do what i need to for me in my own timeframe......I will give him some time......but am not going to live in limbo forever.....

.....but man do I love this big doof......for all the crap he is putting me through...his sweet side did come out last night....as did his humor...and his intellegince.....everything I love about him I saw last night.....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)




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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

He just left......what an awesome 24 hours.......absolutely no talk of us at all. We layed around the house all day....both of us were exhausted....watched tv...laughed a lot.....talked about some stuff on the tv.....good stuff.

Before he left he came TO ME to give me a hug....with a wise ass "you can hug me, but Im not hugging you" --- but I hugged him..nuzzled his neck....he hugged me....grabbed my ass....and went on his way....

First time he has reached out AT ALL like this since the day he left......I know his remark was a joke...and probably a bit of defense....he wanted a hug but wanted to make it sound like it was me who wanted it......we have a very sarcastic relationship anyway....so remarks like that do not bother me.....

......he will be back in the morning.....hopefully he comes in with the same attitude he just left with.......


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Egads! Not one pessimistic remark (I’ll let the hopeful one go)!!

This is so good. Get a good night’s sleep so that you are not grumpy tomorrow. Keep it light. Let him lead. 

No expectations. Don’t you dare start daydreaming about the future! Live and love the moment.

Just my opinion, but you might want to look at the sarcastic nature of your relationship. It might not bother you and I don’t think a bit of ithurts, but it is actually a passive aggressive approach. I’m not going to openly hurt you, but here’s a zing.

I could be wrong. What does everyone else think?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Nope no daydreaming.....all is good and I am being a realist. 

The sarcasm does not bother me at all -- never has.....its just how we roll....he is doing it a little harder now than he has in the past (like the comment above) - but since he is still confused and unsure of me....I understand it is coming from a place of defense...

He made a few comments yesterday that a month or two ago would have had me in tears.....but I am stronger now and more understanding of it all.....he seems to need to be "in control" right now....and I am OK with that since I took that control from him for so long.....he is testing me no doubt...will I break with his comments....will I step back or "push" him like i have done in the past.....


If we should R, I am confident our relationship will go back to a more friendly level of sarcasm....and not one that seems to be passive aggresive....

hope this makes sense.....I know its hard when you do not know the people.....its funny though how clear my head is right now.....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

A clear head is a very good thing!

You’re right, it is hard when you don’t know the people. I can be very sarcastic too in a humorous way, but interestingly, its not something I’ve ever done much with my husband. 

If you’re both okay with it, no harm, no foul. But it can easily devolve into hurtfulness. i guess that’s what I was worried about.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Nope no daydreaming.....all is good and I am being a realist.
> 
> The sarcasm does not bother me at all -- never has.....its just how we roll....he is doing it a little harder now than he has in the past (like the comment above) - but since he is still confused and unsure of me....I understand it is coming from a place of defense...
> 
> ...


One of the good things about this sort of problem is it makes you become stronger, which in turn leads to a more honest and healthy relationship.

Doing well WAI, but don't think for a second you are excused from wet t shirt pics and mud wrestling!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Not forgotten at all Wazza....waiting for that R to happen!!! I can never thank you guys enough for EVERYTHING.

.....and our sarcasm is usually funny based---our D even has the sarcasm gene.......I am sure he is just taking it a step further to test me......I have been totally emotionless this list week or 2.....that is NOT something he is used to....so I think he is trying to push me....to see if the "old behavior" will rear his ugly head....

.....even at the wedding the guy I was talking to....it was a friend of his from high school and he threw out a comment like "so and so is single- you guys are hitting it off, go for it"........there was a day that would have hurt like hell.....and whether he means it or not I do not know.....maybe he is still trying to push me away ---- maybe he is testing my love ------- maybe he is trying to get me to react......

Not sure which....but I am not reacting to it....I ignored it hwen he said it.....and then 10 minutes later he asked me to dance....

I do not like this phase of feeling he is "testing" me, but I get it and know in the end it is something that needs to be done for his own sanity......


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

The man is impossible!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

He is complicated....always has been.....(his childhood was complicated too)---my one girlfriend calls him "deep"....but his good qualities truly do outweigh the bad....and in 22 years he has become a great guy....truth is when I met him.....he had not a lot going on....but I am proud of what he has accomplished.....I have accepted those "things that make him impossible" because I have always chosen to focus on his positivies...

No one is perfect....if more people realized that and accepted their spouses as they are.....there would be a lot less divorces......I think too many are looking for that "perfect" person - they do not exist!!!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> The man is impossible!


She loves him. Leave him alone!!!!! Big meanie!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

FF just has my back - like Stella! Gotta have some tough love too you know!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ABSOLUTELY!!!!! I am NOT using sex as a tool or a way to bring him back - last night was purely for my own selfish needs....but without that damn wall and lack of forgiveness for the first time in I do not know how many years I was able to really enjoy him...there was not a lot of kissing or hugging....I think we both knew we wanted it, but for it not to be "too emotional" so to speak...it was perfect.....


I nor my W in no way meant that you did or you would use sex as a tool or weapon to get him back. Someone who would use it would have come on strong last night. And that isn't you. You played it perfectly for you and H. But you also understand that sexual intimacy for a man is a big part of how we connect. And the lack of it for most men will cause us to lose that connection over time. Women are totally different. The connection has to be made mentally before the physical.

Just FYI. The weekend after I was finally able to get my old flame out of my heart (20 years) and right before my M blew up, my W and I went out of town to a friend's wedding. Does this sound sort of familiar? We stayed at a hotel and had a very special night, connecting on a totally different level than anything we had both previously experienced. The M blew up 2 days later and she left me. The memory of that one night kept me fighting for the M for over a year. I was simply not going to give up on her or that memory no matter how bad things got. And things got bad, to very bad and then worse as my confessions started. I knew that the connection that I had been looking for was with the woman that i had been with and married to for the past 15 years. I mention this just to reiterate how important sexual intimacy can be for a man. It started the Trojan wars...after all. 

For you and H, you guys are obviously in a different place. You say your walls are down? Some of them may be down, at least that part of you that needed to forgive him and allow you to love your H again. But don't kid yourself, not all the walls are down or you wouldn't have so much fear. You have not gotten to the place where you can feel completely vulnerable to H, and with good reason. You should continue to be cautious (NOT FEARFUL) and you need to balance how much you open the door with the need to protect yourself. We have all seen and felt that struggle firsthand with you all week. Your last post was very telling, however. I suggested not spending so much time apart from H last night...you made up your mind and did it a little different that worked for you and it paid off. Be brave when you need to. Be bold when you need to. Dont let fear control you. That last bit shows that he is really coming around fast. On the sex/intimacy front I think you guys may be headed for a slow building process as opposed to a fireworks explosion. Keep us posted on that.

As far as sarcasm, I have a different and not so good experience with it. I had some friends, a British couple (who are naturally pretty sarcastic as a group) who were very intelligent but always sarcastic with each other. When things got bad between them, the sarcasm became very personal and very toxic to the marriage. They did not make it. It does not work with me and W at all. A little teasing is ok, sarcasm is a no-go with W. I save that for my buddies.

A real butt squeeze. You haven't had one of those since December. NICE.:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> .....even at the wedding the guy I was talking to....it was a friend of his from high school and he threw out a comment like "so and so is single- you guys are hitting it off, go for it"........there was a day that would have hurt like hell.....and whether he means it or not I do not know.....maybe he is still trying to push me away ---- maybe he is testing my love ------- maybe he is trying to get me to react......
> 
> Not sure which....but I am not reacting to it....I ignored it hwen he said it.....and then 10 minutes later he asked me to dance....


He!! no, he didn't mean it when he said "go for it". He got jealous. 


OK - I'll say it: "I told you so".


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> He is complicated....always has been.....(his childhood was complicated too)---my one girlfriend calls him "deep"....but his good qualities truly do outweigh the bad....and in 22 years he has become a great guy....truth is when I met him.....he had not a lot going on....but I am proud of what he has accomplished.....I have accepted those "things that make him impossible" because I have always chosen to focus on his positivies...
> 
> No one is perfect....if more people realized that and accepted their spouses as they are.....there would be a lot less divorces......I think too many are looking for that "perfect" person - they do not exist!!!!!





Wazza said:


> She loves him. Leave him alone!!!!! Big meanie!!!!!


I DIDN’T MEAN WAI’S HUSBAND. I MEANT WAZZA!!! AND HE KNEW IT! 

Sheesh!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> FF just has my back - like Stella! Gotta have some tough love too you know!!!


Lol, if I know FF her post was with a twinkle in the eye.

We have met in a few threads. She may seem demure and matronly at first but she has a deliciously wicked sense of humour.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron that story about you and your wife is amazing....amazing what a great night together can do. You know what was good about last night..the fact we DID NOT actually have sex....no words were said about it...we just did not feel the need....but the intimacy was there....just being with him naked was AMAZIng and we were with each other in a way that we had not been in a really long time......the stroking, caresing and rubbing....not to be too graphic.....but it was PERFECT. 

When we got home he said he would like to have sex.....and we were almost going to but he really felt like crap - and I told him he should sleep.....and I went and got our D.

I do not think I have any walls up anymore to be honest....I feel kind of light......I AM still being a little pessimistic about our future and am like you said being "cautious" - still moving on as if we are not reconciling......but that is to pretect my heart....I do not want to have to go through the pain of the first week or two again....

What happened last night was amazing...and felt right.....but in no way makes me think we are any where near reconciling.....

......and I hear you on the saracasm...it is a slippery slope....but once this period we are in passes....it will be better.....I am very confident it is a testing mechanism for him.....I really do feel like he is really pushing me sometimes to react.....

He has 2 weeks left on his place...I am sure he wants to do everything he can to see how much I have really changed before making any decisions......

...I am more thrilled HE WALKED OVER TO ME......usually he walks in the opposite direction....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

FF!!!!! I thought you meant my husband too.....LMAO...now it all makes sense....
Truth is arent all men impossible!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> FF!!!!! I thought you meant my husband too.....LMAO...now it all makes sense....
> Truth is arent all men impossible!!!!


You’ve got that right, WAI! And Wazza is particularly impossible.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> You know what was good about last night..the fact we DID NOT actually have sex....no words were said about it...we just did not feel the need....but the intimacy was there....just being with him naked was AMAZIng and we were with each other in a way that we had not been in a really long time......the stroking, caresing and rubbing....not to be too graphic.....but it was PERFECT.


Perfect was the word that came to mind this morning when I first read your post.

And sometimes the most memorable events can be made that way because of what did not happen as opposed to what did. I hope that is the case with you two.




workingatit said:


> I do not think I have any walls up anymore to be honest....I feel kind of light......


We will see about the walls. R can be very tough and walls can go back up again just that quick. Your H can be difficult...who's the pessimist now?

As far as being light...you are off the roller coaster for a day. feels good huh?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> You’ve got that right, WAI! And Wazza is particularly impossible.


WAI. do not listen to Frostflower, or follow any advice she gives. She is evil, and a very bad influence.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> As far as being light...you are off the roller coaster for a day. feels good huh?


Yeah it felt great - now if I can get off it permanently! 

He can be difficult, but I have to remember like you guys have said if I had been meeting his needs (which clearly the first is touching!)....then it would not have got this bad.....

Being with him reminded me how good it CAN be and WAS at one time......but I know he has SO MANY reservations.........

I am trying to remind myself the rent on this place is only 2 more weeks....he will have to make a decision soon on how to proceed so I just have to bite my tongue......

This week will be no contact from me....I will text him twice with a hey, good day or something.....but that is all...just a friendly i am thinking of you reminder.....

the rest is a waiting game......if I have learned anything the last 3 weeks it is patience......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...ok i lied i have not learned patience....he is here...all is good but yet I just want to scream out "WHAT THE HELL YOU DOING - you coming home ever or do you want a divorce"...

no, I have not done it must have self restraint.......uugghghhgh have I said how bad this sucks.....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> WAI. do not listen to Frostflower, or follow any advice she gives. She is evil, and a very bad influence.


I am hurt.

And I hope those three little words squash you like an ant.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...ok i lied i have not learned patience....he is here...all is good but yet I just want to scream out "WHAT THE HELL YOU DOING - you coming home ever or do you want a divorce"...
> 
> no, I have not done it must have self restraint.......uugghghhgh have I said how bad this sucks.....


Yes it sucks. You know you need to be strong. Do it.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So i am upstairs ---- I was cleaning and took a break for a few....he came in and started flirting a bit. But then said - great you are using sex to get me back. (Mind you he instigated). I said absolutely not...tried to explain that counseling helped me with the forgiveness I needed to open up that door again...

He pretty much said its a crock..doesnt believe I am going to counseling...(even though I have proved this to him)....told me marital counseling via phone is a joke (I did Michele Wieners counseling)....and anything I read online is a joke....

...he still believes not a word I say.....

......yeah....we are done.....we can get along we can be friends....but I am not going to be with someone who will not even give me an ounce of trust....

....clearly he is not dealing WITH his issues......


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...ok i lied i have not learned patience....he is here...all is good but yet I just want to scream out "WHAT THE HELL YOU DOING - you coming home ever or do you want a divorce"...
> 
> no, I have not done it must have self restraint.......uugghghhgh have I said how bad this sucks.....


Patience is the key.......


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

workingatit said:


> So i am upstairs ---- I was cleaning and took a break for a few....he came in and started flirting a bit. But then said - great you are using sex to get me back. (Mind you he instigated). I said absolutely not...tried to explain that counseling helped me with the forgiveness I needed to open up that door again...
> 
> He pretty much said its a crock..doesnt believe I am going to counseling...(even though I have proved this to him)....told me marital counseling via phone is a joke (I did Michele Wieners counseling)....and anything I read online is a joke....
> 
> ...


What you should have done is chuckled and said " and I thought you were the one using sex to get me back". And then just walked away.

And if he does not trust you then that is his issue. But if he was not believing you about the counseling you should have told him something like this " you can doubt me and the positive changes I am making for me to better myself and my life, but anytime you want to show some level of commitment to me, to our family I will make the counseling appt. for both of us". Then walk away.

Let him ponder your statements.

You said he is "deep" so let him be deep.

Patience. Two weeks to go.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> So i am upstairs ---- I was cleaning and took a break for a few....he came in and started flirting a bit. But then said - great you are using sex to get me back. (Mind you he instigated). I said absolutely not...tried to explain that counseling helped me with the forgiveness I needed to open up that door again...
> 
> He pretty much said its a crock..doesnt believe I am going to counseling...(even though I have proved this to him)....told me marital counseling via phone is a joke (I did Michele Wieners counseling)....and anything I read online is a joke....
> 
> ...



He is feeling vulnerable after the last couple of days, so he is pulling back. In the process, he is attempting to put it on you and get a negative reaction so that he can say, ‘See nothing has changed with her.’ This is a defence mechanism. He is confused and is panicking after the closeness the two of you shared.

This is NOT the time to throw in the towel.

Continue to be friendly. Don’t bring u the future or your relationship. Don’t try to tell him that you’ve changed. It won’t work. Continue to show him.

As for his issues, you only have one option. You can’t nag or pressure....that will certainly drive him away. You can’t say ‘look what counselling has done for me. You’ve seen the effect of that. All you can do is lead by example. Show him the changes in you. Be patient. Don’t react to his negativity. It will take time. Stick with it.

And don’t let your marriage be destroyed just because thirty days are almost up. 

It won’t be easy. It may be excruciatingly slow. You may feel like screaming a lot. Do it here.

You have admitted that you are on a roller coaster. Don’t make a life-altering decision when you are down in a dip on the track. You can’t see it yet, but the ride will be worth it in the end.

Stay the course.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> He is feeling vulnerable after the last couple of days, so he is pulling back. In the process, he is attempting to put it on you and get a negative reaction so that he can say, ‘See nothing has changed with her.’ This is a defence mechanism. He is confused and is panicking after the closeness the two of you shared.


This is how I feel too.....but it is not fair. He says things to seemingly purposely hurt me....I am sorry I do not care how much I have hurt him - that is wrong...and my hurt to him was a rebound of his hurt to me....so it just seems all so unfair....he gets to be an ass while I have to be the good guy....

And he just walks out of the room after calling me a liar....which leaves everything in a negative way....

I just do not get it....

I did not say a word to him ........ I posted my feelings here to avoid saying them to him.....

But I just cannot see how someone who has any want to make this work --- will be so harsh to the person he is supposed to be with....I know it happens everyday.....but I just cannot grasp any of it...

I am not making rush decisions and will wait out the next couple of weeks.....I made a promise to Tron and Wazza.....

.....but feel pretty darn deflated right now......

2 hours ago I was massaging his back for him....then he turns and calls me a liar.....(did not straight out say that - but well implied) --- and that fact that EVERYTHING I am doing to him is a waste.....online help...a waste....in person counseling...a waste.....phone counseling......a waste.....reading books....a waste.... (I have 3 right here I told him I was reading..divorce remedy...his needs her needs and the surrendered wife) - all are apparently a waste....

So what is not a waste?!?!?!?

As everyone here has said...it takes TWO people to make it better....if only one of us is doing the work.....then it will NEVER work.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> What you should have done is chuckled and said " and I thought you were the one using sex to get me back". And then just walked away.


....good comeback.....I wish I could think that fast.....

Too late for me to say anything else about the counseling...and I did say he should come with me - even just to validate what I was telling him --- he isn't going. Clearly he is perfect and only I need the help. 

I am hanging in for the next couple of weeks....not throwing in the towel.....but totally starting the detachment process.....I cannot do this to myself anymore.....we had a great time this weekend...instead of building on that he wants to find things to hate on....

....it is a game I just do now want to play anymore...he can play by himself......I want an adult partner who can work through this with me....all he is doing is running away.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I am hurt.
> 
> And I hope those three little words squash you like an ant.


I like ants.

This cruelty to insects is an example of the harshness I was warning WAI about!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...ok i lied i have not learned patience....he is here...all is good but yet I just want to scream out "WHAT THE HELL YOU DOING - you coming home ever or do you want a divorce"...
> 
> no, I have not done it must have self restraint.......uugghghhgh have I said how bad this sucks.....


Of course it sucks.

We learn, we grow. 

You are doing good.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> He is feeling vulnerable after the last couple of days, so he is pulling back. In the process, he is attempting to put it on you and get a negative reaction so that he can say, ‘See nothing has changed with her.’ This is a defence mechanism. He is confused and is panicking after the closeness the two of you shared.
> 
> This is NOT the time to throw in the towel.
> 
> ...


Ok so I say not to listen to silly old FF and then she writes such a wise post.

The only thing I would add is he is on a roller coaster too. He has his own doubts, fears and dreams.

Work on you, be there for him, and be yourself. That is who he fell in love with.

Keep the promise you made to Tron and me.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I will keep that promise Wazza......I owe you two that much....although today i really want to tell him to go get an apartment....I am not ---- because of the two of you.....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ....good comeback.....I wish I could think that fast.....
> 
> Too late for me to say anything else about the counseling...and I did say he should come with me - even just to validate what I was telling him --- he isn't going. Clearly he is perfect and only I need the help.
> 
> ...


As the song (and the Bible) says, 'To everything there is a season.........A time to build up, a time to break down'.... How do you know which season it is? 

You husband is afraid to build up. He is afraid of the hurt that was there before. You are hurt by his seeming desire to break down. Two hurting people. And right now there is only one with the wisdom and the strength to seek help. 

Sometimes people are reluctant to go for counselling because they fear it will rake up old transgressions. I have no doubt your husband feels shame over his affair. At this point, he is not strong enough to relive the affair, which he is afraid would be required of him in counselling. And so, he denigrates counsellors and everything to do with them. It is yet another defence mechanism.

Don’t throw what you are doing to seek help in his face. Don’t mention it again and hide the books. It makes him uncomfortable.

[/QUOTE] As everyone here has said...it takes TWO people to make it better....if only one of us is doing the work.....then it will NEVER work.....[/QUOTE] 

I’m not sure I believe that it takes two to make it better. To make it ‘best', yes. But I think the efforts of one can make a difference. It is you ’time to plant’ and hopefully you will reap what you plant together. 

If not, you will know yo tried your best, and you will be a better person for it.

Don’t give up, WAI.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

As for you Wazza, I think your comment that my post is wise proves that I win. 

By the way, I don’t appreciate being called old. Silly.....okay. But old.....I will not forget!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> As for you Wazza, I think your comment that my post is wise proves that I win.
> 
> By the way, I don’t appreciate being called old. Silly.....okay. But old.....I will not forget!


When you reach my level of age and experience, you will understand how childishly futile this obsession with winning is. You will outgrow it.

But you are young grasshopper, and I enjoy your youthful enthusiasm.

It was a darn good post you wrote though!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> When you reach my level of age and experience, you will understand how childishly futile this obsession with winning is. You will outgrow it.
> 
> But you are young grasshopper, and I enjoy your youthful enthusiasm.
> 
> It was a darn good post you wrote though!!!


Thank you. Now I feel bad about what I just posted on the other thread where you poked at me.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> As the song (and the Bible) says, 'To everything there is a season.........A time to build up, a time to break down'.... How do you know which season it is?
> 
> You husband is afraid to build up. He is afraid of the hurt that was there before. You are hurt by his seeming desire to break down. Two hurting people. And right now there is only one with the wisdom and the strength to seek help.
> 
> ...


This one is pretty good too!

I do think it takes two in the long term, but there have been plenty of times in my marriage where one of us wasn't trying and the marriage survived because the other persisted.

Mrs Wazza and I are both imperfect people. But we have come to fit each other like a favourite t shirt. The sort you like wearing even when a few of the colours have faded. I know that when I drop the ball she is usually there to pick it up.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Thank you. Now I feel bad about what I just posted on the other thread where you poked at me.


Oh dear.

Tron, Old Timer, help!!! The women are beating up on me!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> This one is pretty good too!
> 
> I do think it takes two in the long term, but there have been plenty of times in my marriage where one of us wasn't trying and the marriage survived because the other persisted.
> 
> Mrs Wazza and I are both imperfect people. But we have come to fit each other like a favourite t shirt. The sort you like wearing even when a few of the colours have faded. I know that when I drop the ball she is usually there to pick it up.


Sorry. I wasn’t clear. When I said ‘best’, of course it would be long-term.

No-one is perfectly ‘on’ all the time. Its when both are ‘off’ over an extended period of time that things take a turn for the worse.

I think Mrs. Wazza must be an angel to put up with you!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza, you go off and pick a fight with her on another thread and then come here for support

She has got you on the ropes bud and I am thinking that if I am going to win it might be better for me to just sit a little longer while you guys bloody yourselves just a bit more. You know, get in the ring when I actually have a shot...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I am still relatively young and winning still feels good. Lord knows the W never let's me so I gotta get that fix someplace else. I think I will just sit back a little longer...carry on.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So he just left....he came up to say goodbye and caught me crying..this was NOT intentional - I was hiding in the bathroom....ugghhh....

He asked why I was crying...told him I am just stressed and frustrated.....that the lack of communication with this whole separation has been incredibly frustrating...that we never put a plan in place and I have no idea where he is with this...

....I told him if he wants a divorce then to say it and we can move on and I will talk to an attorney to figure out what to do for mediation....

...he asked why i was in such a hurry....why is everything a knee jerk reaction....

...I said I do not think it is a knee jerk reaction....you do not call me...you do not text me...you do not want to spend time with me when you are here...you do not ask me out even though you said we would go out a couple of times.....so what do you want me to think...I am the one in counseling...I am the one making all the effort - you give me nothing in return....so can you see how it seems ending this is what you want....

....he basically said I am rushing it....its only been 3 weeks....why cant I go with the flow....he hates when I do the "knee jerk" reaction thing...and that he would talk and get help when he is ready....

I said I was upset how he keeps saying that everything I do or say is a lie...I told him again about the few sessions I have doen with the local counselor and what I have learned - and when he tells me he thinks I am lying it hurts....that in 22 years there has been a handful of lies or not telling of things...that does not warrant him making me feel like crap all the time....

He said he does not want to rush back into somethign that he thinks will be the same....I said that is not what I want either...but I am the one doing all the changing....so how can it be different? I said how we have BOTH hurt each other and going forward I do not want that....that is why I am seeing a counselor to better deal with the things I have done.....so they will not happen again....

He said he does not know what he wants yet.....he likes that we have been getting along but does not want to rush anything...I said that is not what I am trying to do.....but I would like a more defined role of what we are trying to accomplish with this separation....what is the point of it if we do not talk, spend time together or go to counseling....

.......again, he said he just needed time.

I told him I am sorry....I did not plan to talk to him about this stuff otday...I am pm'sing and my emotions got the best of me....

One thing I thought was interesting, I did mention something about taking the blame for the recent years we have been miserable and my nagging and controlling of him...he said "why do you have to place blame - it takes two to get here and we are both responsible"....

.....i said you are are right.....

.....it left off OK....he hugged me before he left and said he would be back wednesday.....

ugggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh

definitely no contact this week on my part........


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

..one other thing that was said....which sums him up....I said how sometimes I really wish I could understand him better....

...he said "know one can".....

......sadly he is right.........he is such a lost soul to me.....and I feel like letting him go is the easy thing at this point.......I sometimes wonder if he is really capable of TRULY loving someone.....

I am so conflicted right now.......

Part of MY issue is that I had a mother who was selfish and unloving...so sometimes I wonder if I am holding on to this because I think this is all love is......I can say in 43 years on this earth, except for my D, I am not sure if I have EVER had someone truly love me......and if my h did, I just do not think it was in a way that was healthy...

I am only realizing this recently.....but I am starting to wonder if there really is more out there.....could I truly have someone who is completely in lvoe with me and can see all of my good traits....and accept my imperfections.....

........I am so so so conflicted at this moment......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Marriage is a master class in relationships. We all go in with dreams and expectations and somehow it doesn't work out that way.

And in part, that is because we were unrealistic. And in part because we have faults.

So, some specifics.

First, both if you are who you are. You can learn to manage it better but you cannot fundamentally be someone different. So if he can't accept who you are, or you can't accept who he is, problem!

Second, he says you are knee jerk. What is the basis of that? Is that something you can work on. (Actually, I think in going through this roller coaster I suspect you are working on it already).

Third, he is taking time to think things through. And he is holding a different approach to your relationship, and thereby introducing a different dynamic, even though he appears to be conflicted a bit. I think he is working at it. Ok he isn't in counselling. I know lots of people who choose options other than counselling. I myself lean towards other options. I have a very good friend I discuss this stuff with. I share that person's values, I admire their intellect, and talking to them helps me think things through. I also learn from other people's stories on TAM. I don't know what his approach is, but just because he works differently from you doesn't mean he isn't working.

And so what, he saw you crying? I know you want to be strong and detached, but you also need to be real. Not bad that he saw you IMO.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza... I have always been accepting of him....I have always known he was challenging to love - his upbringing has made him who he his and I GET that about him....if I did not accept him I would not have spent 22 years with him....I would think it would be the same about me from his point of view....in some ways he has grown up a bit more than I have....he has handled this whole separation much better than I have to be honest....

I did apologize for tonite.....I am pms'ing in a big way and am just irratable....I have not cried in days...not like that....and I also told him my intention was to go with the flow as he put it.....unfortunately the pms thing is something I still have not mastered control of.....(I think the girls around here can attest to that!) - I try but its not easy...especially with all the added stress right now...

....and I guess you are right in his own way of handling it....but I know he is not talking to anyone - friends or cousnelors.....he spends 90% of his time alone these days....that terrifies me......and makes me sad for him....

Yes, in the past I have been the queen of knee jerk....and am working on it.....I do not think tonite was knee jerk...it was an offer to get a divorce in the works so we can move on with our lives....I told him I sincerely feel like that is what he wants b/c of his lack of interest in this whole thing....I made it clear a divorce is not what I want - but will get the ball rolling if it is what he wants.....not knee jerk....just an offer.....in case he really wants one but did not want to initiate (I have read that happens a lot here)

He did not take me up on it.....

I am stepping away from everything this week with this relationship - I will be around the boards, but not posting too much here. I need to concentrate on work this week and get back to my charity work as well....both have been horrbly neglected.

I am not contacting him at all as I have said...and am sticking to it. He will be here Wednesday...I am making plans to go out. 

Detachment here I come. I think it is all I have left at this point to keep me sane......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ..one other thing that was said....which sums him up....I said how sometimes I really wish I could understand him better....
> 
> ...he said "know one can".....
> 
> ...


WAI, 

I think your mommy issues are definitely part of what drove you to this man. I suppose you felt that maybe you could change him and make him love you...and if that was successful then that would make up for how your mom treated you. You would then have value and be worthy ... 

The answer to wondering about whether there is more out there...the answer is yes. Whether it is with H or not, I don't know. Without counseling or some other way to get him to be more honest with himself, release all the cooped up $hit inside him, and open himself up...the short and blunt answer is no.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Tron...sadly you are right.....I remember on one of our first dates he told me what an ass he was and how he sucked in relationships......but he has come a LONG way....and no one is perfect.....but I am totally getting where you are coming from....he has a lot of issues he needs to deal with and I am not sure he is....but yet he always says on the other hand he does not need any help.....

This is why it is hard....he is SUCH a good guy....but he is in so much pain --- although he will say he is fine and act like nothing is wrong...

So I almost feel bad leaving him alone.....I am truly all he has.....and th eonly person who loves him unconditionally - besides his D of course.....

I want it like it was Friday night all the time.....we spent about 18 hours straight together....and the last 16 were the way it was SUPPOSED to be...he was happy and smiling and fun...like I had not seen him in a long time.....

......but I know he is not like that all the time....

....I have decisions to make......not while I am pms'ing though which is why I will take a few days off of all of this.....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Thanks Tron...sadly you are right.....I remember on one of our first dates he told me what an ass he was and how he sucked in relationships......but he has come a LONG way....and no one is perfect.....but I am totally getting where you are coming from....he has a lot of issues he needs to deal with and I am not sure he is....but yet he always says on the other hand he does not need any help.....
> 
> This is why it is hard....he is SUCH a good guy....but he is in so much pain --- although he will say he is fine and act like nothing is wrong...
> 
> ...


I think you are wise to realize that it would be a huge mistake to make any decisions while PMS’ing. 

I understand why you want to retreat, but think about it. He hugged you and said he would be back on Wednesday. Why would you go out? HE HUGGED YOU. He didn’t have to. Stay home on Wednesday and be light and beautiful like you were on Friday night. How will he see the changes in you and realize they were not a one-off deal if he doesn’t get to spend time with you? Come on, WAI. Go for it....not with expectations, but with the goal of enjoying yourself.

By the way, we would all like life to be the way it was for you on Friday night. That just isn’t going to happen....to any of us. There will be highs and there will be lows, and with any luck, there will be a lot of in-between. And there will be a lot of work to keep it that way.

I agree with Wazza (there, I said it!). So what if he saw you crying. His actions have repercussions. He left, you are sad. Normal and something he should know.

I also agree with Wazza (you watch....this will go straight to his head!) that he is working on it. And working on it for him at this point may simply be taking what he sees and experiences when you are together and reflecting on it. 

You’ve been married 20 years. Do you really expect to fix everything in 30 days?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't think that you should worry about him seeing you cry today either. It prompted another discussion where he showed some feelings and some actual compassion. That is good. He hugged you, showed he cared, understood and took some responsibility. All the rest today is fluff and his defense mechanisms at work. 

My previous post may have seemed a little harsh so I am going to start this with something positive. You are the best woman that he has found. That is why he married you. He had other options and chose you. That is also why he stuck with you and stayed faithful for 10 years even though it was a bad marriage. That is a long time. I don't think he is ready to just throw in the towel and I don't think he will be the one to do it. As long as you are not advocating a D or pushing him I don't think he is going to answer your question. 

Most of us here believe he loves you in his way, we think he wants to come home but clearly not to the same relationship as before. You said the same. FF said it pretty clearly and i agree that your efforts alone can make the M "better" and there is a chance, albeit very slight that it could become a M that you would be satisfied with. I definitely have my doubts about that long term because you will get resentful. You already are and it is eating you up. The next integral part of the equation is can he make changes to himself to make it the "best" and make it a marriage that both of you will be satisfied and happy with. I took it positively that he said he will let you know when he is ready to get help. Unfortunately, that isn't right now.

I still think he is going to be back home in 2 weeks. But if it isn't in 2 weeks, it may be sometime later. At the end of the day I think you are ultimately going to be the one who determines whether to fish or cut bait with him and under what terms you are willing to stick it out, not the other way around. 

And you know what...next time you guys sit down on Wednesday, don't run off and hide...you spend a little time chit chatting with him about what you learned in counseling this week! This BS that he spews about you lying about it will end right there! And if you get the chance you keep talking about it and pretty soon he is going to see a different woman, someone who is working on her $hit. His negativity against counseling is definitely a defense mechanism and i think he is scared of it...both for you and him. Maybe he is worried that if you work out all of your issues you might not be interested in him any more. But, when you finish working through your issues I guarantee you that you will know how to deal with him better, and even more importantly you WILL be in a very good position to determine what and what will not be acceptable going forward with him, what you are willing to put up with and how you want to be treated. 

I know you keep saying that you don't think that you are headed to R and that is ok for now. But, if we are right, when that time comes, then he will have a decision to make. I am hopeful that he will come around, I think he knows it is coming. Maybe your progress will inspire him to do what he needs to do. *WAI, he has a moral obligation to you and your daughter to do something about it!* He doesn't understand it and it is hurting you personally, it is hurting your M, and it will hurt your D. I realize that he is a great dad, but is he the kind of husband that he would want for her? 

If he is that anti-counseling then maybe FF can help you with alternatives. I know for my issues, IC worked very quickly (6 to 8 weeks). The counselor did a test on the first day and told me that I was one of the types of people that respond quickly. The MC and the W's counseling obviously took a lot longer, but that was because of W's history and all the harmful things that i had done. The initial testing told us that too.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I realize that he is a great dad, but is he the kind of husband that he would want for her?


In the past I have said EXACTLY this thing to him - would he want our D to be married to someone like him and he answered no every time.....that is why I get frustrated so badly - he knows he is "broken" on some level....but does nothing to change it....but on the flip side he is still 1000x better than he was and on some levels every year he does get better.....

I get what you are saying about doing thing in his own time.....I guess this is where men and women are different....I want to get "fixed" as quickly as possible so I can make myself better.....I guess i do not get why he would not do the same for himself....

Even our daughter is starting to see his "sadness" - she has made comments and said things like "OK I am leaving now" when he gets into one of his moods....

I get that coming from me bringing these things to his attention is pointless....but once you realize your daughter notices...wouldn't it be time to get help?

It just all baffles me......



> My previous post may have seemed a little harsh so I am going to start this with something positive. You are the best woman that he has found.


Not harsh at all = honest. There is a difference. Honesty is needed......I am not into sugar coating, that does not help anyone. 

I do believe on some level he knows how great he has had it with me....and that is not being arrogant - if you knew the full history you would see he definitely got the better end of the deal.....but when I met him I was weak and insecure....I am not anymore...so there are certain things I will just not tolerate anymore.....he was insecure too he always said - but in some ways I still think he is. He is confident as all hell in his job....but knowing him the way I do - the insecurity is still there.....which is why my treatment of him hurt even more than maybe it would other men...

But I know he knows I am 100% there for him - that my love for him IS unconditional - that all I want for him is to be happy, which I have made clear I CANNOT DO for him....he needs to figure the happiness part out.....but I just do not think he can do it on his own ---- which is where I am stuck.

...if he does not get help or figure out if he really is depressed...and does not do anything about it.....how can he ever make anyone else happy? 

This just gets more complex to me......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You’ve been married 20 years. Do you really expect to fix everything in 30 days?


Yes, that is my biggest problem and I know I am wrong for feeling this way but do not know how to make it stop..... 

Point taken, I will stay home Wednesday. I just hate feeling like a 3rd wheel.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I get what you are saying about doing thing in his own time.....I guess this is where men and women are different....I want to get "fixed" as quickly as possible so I can make myself better.....I guess i do not get why he would not do the same for himself....


Just fyi. This is not a male/female issue, this is a core personality trait issue. I am a male and I am the same as you. My W is not like me.

And, why would he not do it for himself...maybe because it is going to open him up to a lot of pain and he is an avoider.



MORE IMPORTANTLY,
I woke up this morning with a good feeling about yesterday's exchange. It was good that it came on the heels of a really nice Friday/Saturday. This is progress. You laid some groundwork (even while PMS'ing). He has a lot to think about this week. 

He is telling you to be patient. So are we. There must be something in the air around here. :scratchhead:


Sounds like you have a lot of work to do this week outside of this. Good idea to focus on that. Chin up.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

And...stop the D talk. It is counter-productive. He is starting to enjoy your time together again...why talk D?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Tron....yes, I will be concentrating on work this week --- I am so behind it is not even funny. And of course I just got home from picking up D from school -- looks like the start of the flu, so it will be a long week.



> And...stop the D talk. It is counter-productive. He is starting to enjoy your time together again...why talk D?


Honestly, because I am too much of a reader....and I am trying to justify his lack of calling, texting, emailing or initial contact to me as his way of saying he wants out - and because I know he said he wanted to leave months ago but "did not have the guts" until the day I actually forced him out - I am thinking he is doing the same with divorce....he wants it but is too weak to admit it or start it...my own defense mechanism I guess....

My 2 promises going forward...D word will never be brought up again.....and I will not be contacting him again....I will see him Wed. , Sat and Sun (although it is not alone time which I think kind of seems pointless in trying to fix things) - but outside of those times...he will not hear a peep from me.......

Did not even text him to tell him our D is home from school....

....I am truly just burnt out from all of this and am done dwelling on it....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ....I am truly just burnt out from all of this and am done dwelling on it....


I feel ya


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I don’t have much time as I am getting ready for work. Will write more later. But I recommend a book called ‘The Dance of Anger’. I forget the author (maybe Harriet Lerner?), but if you google the title, it will tell you. She talks about how we ‘dance’ with our spouse....meaning we get into the same fruitless exchanges over and over. She gives strategies for changing the ‘dance’. If your local bookstore doesn’t have it, they can order it for you. Take a look at it. I think it might be helpful.

Gotta go. Have a good day!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks FF! Will download that one tonight n the Kindle! Looks like it has great reviews.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Proud of myself today...I did text him our daughter came home sick from school since she took really ill and wound up with 103 fever and thought he should know....but I responded to his texts with short answers and he asked if he should come home tonight and told him no we are fine....

......when really I want to say yes we miss you and we want you here.......

No tears today....did not even think about anything for a few hours.....actually got some work done......

First time since this whole mess started that I really distracted myself from thinking about it.....

But my heart still hurts like hell.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I still think he is going to be back home in 2 weeks.


I have never ever wanted someone else to be so right in my life.....everything in my being is saying he is not coming back - and maybe that is me having my defenses up......but you sound so damn confident it gives me some hope......

Tron I adore you - you have been wonderful through all of this, .....thank you.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I have never ever wanted someone else to be so right in my life.....everything in my being is saying he is not coming back - and maybe that is me having my defenses up......but you sound so damn confident it gives me some hope......


Uh oh. You did not do that. You just pigeonholed me into being your biggest cheerleader!

I've got no room to change my mind if you do that...that is not fair...not fair at all...you are allowed to change your mind 10 times a day...

Seriously though, we are not there and are relying on what you tell us. No question he is still conflicted about it, but my gut tells me he is going to come around. I stand by my statements 2 weeks ago. Make home and you a place he wants to come back to every night and the chances go way up. You have done a lot of good stuff in a short period of time. 





workingatit said:


> Tron I adore you - you have been wonderful through all of this, .....thank you.....


We are all here to help...but I get that a lot

Have a great evening and take good care of that little girl.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Well since everything I have told you is 100% accurate.....that gives me a glimmer of hope.....not much...but a glimmer......

And no - now you cannot change your mind and must remain my ally no matter how bad I screw up!!!! 

It is funny, last night I spent hours really reading through lots of old stories that were similar to mine (on here and another forum)....a few which did result in R - and man there stories were so much worse than mine....at least my husband and I are getting along --- it is amazing to see so many who really fought through the separation and seemed to really despise each other can come back and work at it.....

I sit here just wondering if he can look past the bad to see the good that can be....he had a glimpse on Friday.....and I will continue on that road with him.....

Miss him more now than I have since this started......hate the pain....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Point taken, I will stay home Wednesday. I just hate feeling like a 3rd wheel.....


Why would you be a 3rd wheel? The three of you are a family. You don’t have to be (in fact, shouldn’t be) in the same room as them the whole time, but do let him know that his beautiful, spirited, loving wife is in the house. Give him something to think about and to remember when he goes back to his room.


'..if he does not get help or figure out if he really is depressed...and does not do anything about it.....how can he ever make anyone else happy?’

It is not his job to make anyone else happy. It is each person’s responsibility to make themselves happy. No one can do it for them. His job is to make himself happy. Hopefully he will figure out that being with you is one thing that helps with that.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Why would you be a 3rd wheel? The three of you are a family. You don’t have to be (in fact, shouldn’t be) in the same room as them the whole time, but do let him know that his beautiful, spirited, loving wife is in the house. Give him something to think about and to remember when he goes back to his room.
> 
> 
> '..if he does not get help or figure out if he really is depressed...and does not do anything about it.....how can he ever make anyone else happy?’
> ...


FF,
Those two comments popped out to me too and i thought the same. But, unlike Wazza I don't have any issues giving you credit for knowing what you're talking about


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Tron said:


> FF,
> Those two comments popped out to me too and i thought the same. But, unlike Wazza I don't have any issues giving you credit for knowing what you're talking about


I like you, Tron!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

sorry been off for a few working how are you doing.. i did see this quote from you...."I have never ever wanted someone else to be so right in my life....." 
ahhh i feel that way about you to....your talking about me right?? you did see that photo of me in a dress (me and 7 male friends got drunk and did the oldtimer photos but we were all in dresses) i have that effect on women


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> FF,
> Those two comments popped out to me too and i thought the same. But, unlike Wazza I don't have any issues giving you credit for knowing what you're talking about


Sheesh, now Tron is picking on me too!!!!!

But seriously, one of the things a lot of people learn during the hard times is that they are responsible for themselves. Fix yourself and your relationships follow.

WAI, I see your mood swing according to how your think your husband sees you. Natural, but can you seek strength within yourself in the first instance?


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Sheesh, now Tron is picking on me too!!!!!
> 
> But seriously, one of the things a lot of people learn during the hard times is that they are responsible for themselves. Fix yourself and your relationships follow.
> 
> WAI, I see your mood swing according to how your think your husband sees you. Natural, but can you seek strength within yourself in the first instance?


Looks good on ya, Wazza! 

WAI, Wazza has a point. Don’t let what you think he thinks dictate your mood. For one thing, you could be wrong in what you are assuming. For another, you are giving away control. Be your own person. I know its hard. A simple look from him can send your emotions soaring or crashing depending on how you interpret it. But it makes it difficult for you to maintain an even keel and not only is that hard on you, but he will pick up on it and may see it as a sign of weakness and volatility. Find that strength Wazza is talking about. You have it in you.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> '..if he does not get help or figure out if he really is depressed...and does not do anything about it.....how can he ever make anyone else happy?’


Thanks everyone!

The comment above is something I have heard even way before this situation...and even something my counselor addressed...again I do not NEED him to make me happy - I am happy with MYSELF which means I am capable of offering myself to someone else to be able to be a positive addition to their life...

With my husband, who seems to not be happy as a whole...(which is NOT MY FAULT).....I find it hard for him to be able to make others around him happy ---- meaning sometimes just his presence can make a room "cold".....my daughter has even noticed this...

So maybe the context of it seems wrong, but I truly believe if someone has depression or issues that cause them from really feeling true happiness - it becomes that much more difficult for them to have good healthy relationships - that is what I meant.....

.....and if that is not something he gets help for.....I am not sure where that leaves us....I do not want to be with someone who cannot address their own happiness and take responsibility for their own well beng.....this is a guy who even as a child seemed unhappy as noted by his own family....so clearly there is something "off".....

...hope this makes better sense.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OK guys - why does it seem to be HARDER this week.....right now I just want to call him and cry and beg him to come home....I have not felt this way in a couple of weeks....

I think the wedding did more harm than good..... :-(

I will NOT contact him.......but I so want to.......

ETA (so I can vent): So I get a text and all it says is "do you think it is a good idea to send her to school today" ---- no hi, no morning no nothing...and I had not even had a chance to talk to my daughter yet about how she was feeling....(yes, I am keeping her home).....but WTF....you are not even here --- do not try and tell me how to handle things when I am handling EVERYTHING right now....why not say HI before judging what I do or how I handle things....

I am losing patience so fast with all of this....so ready to tell him I just want the damn divorce and lets move on....


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Deep breath. You don't have to reply.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I just replied "she is staying home" - his response "i know" --- i guess my D texted him...like I am supposed to know that?!?!!? 

Just miserable today.....and I want to call him and tell him what a D*** he is being...I am taking responsibility, I have apologized, I am doing counseling....what are you doing "nothing" - this started because YOU CHEATED...because YOU HURT ME and never took responsibility, never got help, never apologized with a true apology.....and now somehow I have to have the same damn pain all over again...WHY?!?!?!?!?!?

Why the hell do I even want to be with him?!?!?!?!?!

ETA: And he texts AGAIN with "If she needs to go to the dr. let me know and ill come home and take her"

.....I work from home - I do not need you!!!!!!! What the heck? Why cant you care a half an ounce about me as much as you do our D.....how about "how are you today" or SOMETHING that you show you give a **** about ME.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I just replied "she is staying home" - his response "i know" --- i guess my D texted him...like I am supposed to know that?!?!!?
> 
> Just miserable today.....and I want to call him and tell him what a D*** he is being...I am taking responsibility, I have apologized, I am doing counseling....what are you doing "nothing" - this started because YOU CHEATED...because YOU HURT ME and never took responsibility, never got help, never apologized with a true apology.....and now somehow I have to have the same damn pain all over again...WHY?!?!?!?!?!?
> 
> Why the hell do I even want to be with him?!?!?!?!?!


Naughty WAI, you are being impatient again, and not fair to him.

I haven't written a longer version of my story yet (sigh, life is crazy right now) but you and I have in common that our partners cheated on us and we beat them up over a long period. So I understand at least some of your current emotions, but here is the truth.

Life is not fair. My wife was totally wrong what she did to me but it's done.

Frostflower's husband was totally unfair what he did to her but it is done.

Same for your husband.

Hanging onto the hurt, hanging on to moral superiority, hurts you.

You need to decide on a course of action and stick with it, regardless of emotions, for a reasonable period.,


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I know Wazza...I know.....just a really bad day today....and honestly I had been doing really good....I think Friday was a mistake....we had so much fun and it felt so right.....now I want that all the time and am afraid it will never happen.....

I just hurt.....BAD!

He just texted again after I told him she was OK and does not really need the doctor....he said "OK was just trying to help you out"

I texted him back and thanked him and said I appreciated it and that my concern is getting her to sleep since she is exhausted.....told him I would text if anything changes and said have a good day....



> You need to decide on a course of action and stick with it, regardless of emotions, for a reasonable period.,


 And I have my plan in my head....hanging in until after our trip in March (hopefully I will have an answer before that of course!)....but I do not want to do anything to ruin that trip - and starting a D before that would do that...this is for our daughter...I will not do anything to ruin this trip for her....so although I hope to have answer from him in a couple of weeks - I know I need patience through the end of March - April will be the end point for us......if it is not saved before then....

Just totally not myself today and I do not know why....maybe still PMS...or could be exhaustion....not sure....but hate feeling like this!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks for explaining about the making others happy statement. It makes sense, in that ‘vibes’ from another person can bring our moods down....if we let them. We are in control of our our feelings. This is an area where I think that book could help. It may give you some ideas for handling those vibes, rather than letting them drag you down. But I do get what you are saying.

I think you handled the texts well. Its sometimes hard to keep in mind that other people, men in particular (and I’m probably going to hear from the men now!), don’t approach things in the same way that we do. My husband doesn’t always start with a greeting. He gets right to the point. That was hard when we were separated and he texted me. It made me feel like he didn’t care and was just dealing with the issue at hand. But he can be like that now, and if I look back, he was always like that. Not all the time, but if he was busy at work for example. Men are all about fixing things and, in their rush to do so, often tend to forget the warm fuzzy stuff that we need. 

His directive to call him if your D needed to go to the doctor was an offer of help. It came out wrong because he was focused on the problem. Don’t make too much of it.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks FF for letting me know your husband was the same with the text thing.....and you are right, he was always kind of like that....

I am not reading too much into anything.....I am just being a Debbie downer and want off the roller coaster -- but yes, I have HEARD everything everyone is telling me which is why I vent here instead of to him......and am fighting my urges to screw the patience and move forward with a divorce......

I think part of my want to just go right to divorce is because I am still working through my "control" issue....want everything my way....this is NOT how I was when I met him...this change has happened in the last few years....so I am aware of it and am working on it......

How many times FF did your heart tell you it was over during yoru separation?!?!?!!? Did you ever have real hope of getting back together?


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

Workingatit- I have been dealing with the same 'treatment' from my H - this article explains a lot (last few paragraphs) and again, PATIENCE is the key:


Love and Fear
By Advisor "Steven Craig"

Love and fear are opposites. Not love and hate – hate comes from fear. So, why do men fear love?

In a lot of ancient cultures, love is characterized as a God, or a Goddess. Why? Because nobody can control it. When you've got it, you're stuck with it. Like the flu. But the answer is right here – control. Now, nobody sits a young boy down and gives him a speech about how he's supposed to be in control because he's a man. But that's the message men get. Emotion is for women. Maintain control at all costs. Well, love makes you feel out of control. So it conflicts with the programming. That's the primary reason men are afraid of love.

A second reason that men fear love is that it plays havoc with one's emotions. Men aren't raised with emotion or given the knowledge, insight and benefit of the experience of older and wiser men. Women on the other hand, generally are provided with all of these things – women have no problem discussing their feelings with each other, and are given the benefit of the experience of those who are older and wiser than themselves. This seems to be a cross-cultural phenomenon; so one particular race, religion or philosophy can't be blamed.

Popular wisdom has it that, "men are mental, women are emotional", which is really an oversimplification. Men do have emotions, but are discouraged from showing them and letting them control their actions. Love is one of the strongest emotions – so of course it's going to conflict with the male imperative to "stay in control." There are many men who are comfortable splashing around in the shallow waters of meaningless relationships because they don't conflict with the programming. A relationship that actually engages a man's emotions … well, that's a challenge, and a scary one at that. In fact, it's so scary that a man may actually be in love for quite some time before the realization hits him – usually like a ton of bricks. So suddenly there's this huge, formless force bearing down on him, and this initiates the fight-or-flight response. There's a lot of individual variation as to how strongly this reaction sets in, but set in it does.

Fear is something that's managed, not overcome. The fight-or-flight response is sometimes called the fight-or-flight-or-freeze response. Think "deer in the headlights." That's the "freeze" option. Moving in spite of the fear is managing the fear. For instance, if a man is fearful of love, he tells himself to move forward with the relationship in spite of the fact that it scares him. The love outweighs the fear. Eventually, when the sky fails to fall, the fear gradually disappears. You can't hang around waiting for the fear to magically go away; it has to be challenged. The flight or freeze options are dropped in favor of the "fight" option – and what he's fighting is the fear.

When a man is overwhelmed by emotion, he will quite often disappear from the radar and retreat to his cave. That's because he's instinctively feeling the need to withdraw from the fray in order to elicit a calming antidote to the stress of the relationship. He may go fishing, he may go out to a bar with his buddies to blow off steam, and he may just sit in front of the TV and watch some mindless sitcom. These actions take the pressure off and renew his ability to cope. If we use an analogy here, you might say that when it comes to dealing with emotion, men have a coffee cup to fill, while women have an Olympic-size swimming pool. Once the coffee cup is full, it's full, and has to be absorbed into a man's life experience before he can go back for more. Women often say to me, "Everything was great – we were communicating regularly, spending time together, nothing bad happened – so why did he drop off the planet?" The answer is, "So he can process."

The length of time a man spends in his cave varies considerably. Some guys have it down to hours, some need days, and some need more. This tends to put a woman in a place where she's left thinking that the guy doesn't care, he's lost interest, there's another woman, etc. The more time that goes by, the more likely she is to become convinced that the guy's just gone … until he suddenly emerges from the underbrush acting like everything's just fine.

So he's processing – why does that mean that he can't just pick up the phone and say, "Hey, everything's fine, I'm still alive?" Because it interrupts the process. And also because there's probably not a man on the planet who believes there's such a thing as a short call with a woman. There's a conviction that, "Hey, I'm ok, we're ok" will be answered with, "Then how come I'm not hearing from you?" and that a heavy talk will ensue. When a man's processing, that's the last thing he wants.

Processing information about relationships for a man is largely subconscious. Keep the conscious mind otherwise occupied, and the subconscious takes care of the rest. Women on the other hand tend to process life and live it at the same time – in a sense, multitasking. That just makes it more difficult for a woman to understand why something that comes so naturally to them seems to be impossible, or at least very difficult, for a man. If there's an answer here for a woman, it's simply this: patience.

Love and Fear - Keen.com


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

NewLife - WOW, this was great THANK YOU! I cannot believe there is an article I have not read yet.....but the last couple of paragraphs were PERFECT as to what we are dealing with.....

I am working on the patience i really am.....and for most days I am great.....PMS may have a lot to do with my backwards thoughts today...which is why I put my game face on with my "have a nice day" text to him....

But this article is wonderful.....the one thing I do know is that if he DOES come home....I will definitely have a much better understanding of him and what NOT to do......


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Thanks FF for letting me know your husband was the same with the text thing.....and you are right, he was always kind of like that....
> 
> I am not reading too much into anything.....I am just being a Debbie downer and want off the roller coaster -- but yes, I have HEARD everything everyone is telling me which is why I vent here instead of to him......and am fighting my urges to screw the patience and move forward with a divorce......
> 
> ...


After he told me about the other woman, I knew it was over. He was gone. Before that I was up and down like you. Every little thing sent me soaring or crashing. Its normal. My friends here on TAM helped me to keep it together. And for that, I am eternally grateful.

That looks like an interesting article that NewLife has posted. Will read it after work.

have a good day, WAI.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks FF! Your story is so inspirational.....and your feedback is GREATLY appreciated...honestly do not know where I would be without TAM --- bet you papers would already be filed.....

Have a great day at work......time for me to get some done!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Great piece, NewLife


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> His directive to call him if your D needed to go to the doctor was an offer of help. *It came out wrong because he was focused on the problem. Don’t make too much of it.*


I think the words right and wrong are not helpful here. You are certainly entitled to want more warm fuzzy communications, but he is equally entitled to resent time wasted on meaningless small talk.

The real issue is that you have different needs and have to work on common ground. But that takes both of you. Calling his behaviour wrong suggests it is something he has to correct, rather than something for you both to work on.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Calling his behaviour wrong suggests it is something he has to correct, rather than something for you both to work on.


Interesting take Wazza.....never saw it that way.....

I am just super sensitive today....today the heart is racing, my stomach is in knots....and it is taking EVERY OUNCE OF MY BEING to not call him and tell him to go screw for the way he is treating me.....

Albeit....some of you think he is being as good as he can be given the circumstances....

Today is one of the worst days I have had so far.....and I have no idea why....if I do not call him before the day is out it will be a miracle......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and also you have to remember that I am in a place where I do not think he is working on anything....meaning these behaviors will not change and if I allow him to do this now....he will to continue to behave this way even if we did R.....so at what point do I say hey - how about a HI when you text me first thing in the am?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> After he told me about the other woman, I knew it was over. He was gone. Before that I was up and down like you. Every little thing sent me soaring or crashing. Its normal. My friends here on TAM helped me to keep it together. And for that, I am eternally grateful.
> 
> That looks like an interesting article that NewLife has posted. Will read it after work.
> 
> have a good day, WAI.


WAI, I followed FFs thread real time since almost the beginning, just so you know the context of what I write.

FF, right at the beginning of your thread you knew about OW but you kept hoping. At that stage I think you had been separated maybe three months....I don't know the exact date. So while you were calmer than WAI there was some of the same rollercoaster....hopes raised and dashed. Then the big explosion early Sep where OW wrote an incredibly cruel email pretending to be your H, that brought her undone.

But that email was also the first time I remember you being clear it was over to us on TAM.

So is it that I just missed your initial really violently volatile period? Or is there an extra subtlety here I am not seeing.

Was it that you knew it was over but were just struggling to come to terms?

Or have I got it all wrong?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....hmmm so I just took my temperature and it is 103.....ummmm that could explain my total emotional mess today....I felt tired all day - never had time to think i was sick until my D told my how red my faced look....

.....glad I am not going nuts....guess that may explain the racing heart and aches too....if this is the flu I will not be a happy camper...I have WAY too much work to do.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Interesting take Wazza.....never saw it that way.....
> 
> I am just super sensitive today....today the heart is racing, my stomach is in knots....and it is taking EVERY OUNCE OF MY BEING to not call him and tell him to go screw for the way he is treating me.....
> 
> ...


Ya know what? Call him. Say "I just wanted to hear your voice." And make small talk. There is absolutely no reason I can see not to. No virtue in inflicting pain on yourself, particularly it it then makes you blame him for the pain.



workingatit said:


> ...and also you have to remember that I am in a place where I do not think he is working on anything....meaning these behaviors will not change and if I allow him to do this now....he will to continue to behave this way even if we did R.....so at what point do I say hey - how about a HI when you text me first thing in the am?


What if, instead of thinking about HOW you want him to work on things, you make a list of WHAT you want him to work on, and what YOU need to work on too. Show it to him and ask what else you should work on. Talk about it.

Using your example, what matters to you is that he say "Hi" in the morning. Whether he changes because a counsellor helped him or for some other reason is irrelevant, right?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ....hmmm so I just took my temperature and it is 103.....ummmm that could explain my total emotional mess today....I felt tired all day - never had time to think i was sick until my D told my how red my faced look....
> 
> .....glad I am not going nuts....guess that may explain the racing heart and aches too....if this is the flu I will not be a happy camper...I have WAY too much work to do.....


Take care.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Ya know what? Call him. Say "I just wanted to hear your voice." And make small talk. There is absolutely no reason I can see not to. No virtue in inflicting pain on yourself, particularly it it then makes you blame him for the pain.


This is the kind of thing I guess I am still conflicted about....I think doing this kind of makes me look needy and desperate...we never addressed clear rules for this separation so I have NO CLUE how to be/act. 

Even Sunday I tried to tell him we need to put a plan in place for this separation to be effective - but he just evades the comment - which is classic for him...instead of dealing with it....just make it go away....so we are in this separation with no rules, expectations, goals or anything....

That is THE BEHAVIOR I am worried about most that will nto change on his part.....

NOTHING ever gets dealt with....so I am always dealing with conflict instead of fixing things....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So I wound up in bed with what i think is the flu....which explains the sudden irrational moments today....but a lesson was learned...earlier otday he texted about our daughter...and offered to come home ot take her to the doctor if he needed to to help me (he did not know I was feeling like crap at this point)....but I kept her home from school an extra day since she had a stomach virus yesterday....

About 430pm I pass out on the couch...chills...body aches....dizzy and still a 103 fever.....daughter texts husband that mommy is sick....she tells him what is wrong...he texts back a joke about her not getting it...

......me being a jerk....I got all emotional that he could not call or text asking if I am really sick...

Half hour later....he texts and says D said you are sick...if you need me to come home tonite I will otherwise I will see you tomorrow....

I texted him with a thank you - and said we are ok and I did not want him to get sick too and wished him a good night....he shot back with a u too......

Lesson learned ---------- I NEED TO MASTER PATIENCE.....

You all said he would do things in HIS time.....I thought he did not care that I feel like death.....but he did....he even texted D to make sure she takes care of mom...and she did...she made me soup and got me OJ, a stuffed bear, tissues and a garbage can....best kid in the world......

THIS IS WHAT I NEEDED!!!!!!!!! Just an inkling that he gives a crap.....in a way I NEEDED....and he did just that with one simple text....

.......sorry I am such a pain in the ass......but this is really huge to me.......still not convinced he will come home - but I feel better knowing he cares a little about me....

Not sure where I would be without this forum....damn you guys rock!!!!!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

For the record, you are NOT a PITA. 

And you rock too.

You will get there.

Hang in.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I think the words right and wrong are not helpful here. You are certainly entitled to want more warm fuzzy communications, but he is equally entitled to resent time wasted on meaningless small talk.
> 
> The real issue is that you have different needs and have to work on common ground. But that takes both of you. Calling his behaviour wrong suggests it is something he has to correct, rather than something for you both to work on.


I think the word ‘wrong’ was mine, Wazza. And I meant it in the sense that what he said in the text probably didn’t come out the way he intended. Not wrong as in right and wrong.

Really, we can put a man on the moon, but we can’t create one that understands what a woman means!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> WAI, I followed FFs thread real time since almost the beginning, just so you know the context of what I write.
> 
> FF, right at the beginning of your thread you knew about OW but you kept hoping. At that stage I think you had been separated maybe three months....I don't know the exact date. So while you were calmer than WAI there was some of the same rollercoaster....hopes raised and dashed. Then the big explosion early Sep where OW wrote an incredibly cruel email pretending to be your H, that brought her undone.
> 
> ...


You are likely right, Wazza. I know when he first left, I hoped. When I found out about OW (which wasn’t right away but not that far into it), I guess there were periods where I still had hope. Maybe I knew our marriage was over and was just struggling and hoping beyond hope. I honestly don’t remember. I do remember accepting that it was over sometimes and planning for a future without him, and other times falling back into devastation. After the first email she sent, I remember thinking, “he can’t possibly stay with her now”. But he did. There was a definite up and down! The second email from her....yes, I knew it was over between us. Turned out I was wrong!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> You are likely right, Wazza. I know when he first left, I hoped. When I found out about OW (which wasn’t right away but not that far into it), I guess there were periods where I still had hope. Maybe I knew our marriage was over and was just struggling and hoping beyond hope. I honestly don’t remember. I do remember accepting that it was over sometimes and planning for a future without him, and other times falling back into devastation. After the first email she sent, I remember thinking, “he can’t possibly stay with her now”. But he did. There was a definite up and down! The second email from her....yes, I knew it was over between us. Turned out I was wrong!


I’ll add to that that I didn’t find TAM right away, so my really volatile period isn’t recorded in all its gory details.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Sorry you are sick, WAI. Hope it doesn’t last too long.

And, yes, he cares!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Really, we can put a man on the moon, but we can’t create one that understands what a woman means!


So making sense of a woman or representing her utterances as logical is harder than putting a man on the moon.

I see your point.

(Awaits twin thermonuclear devices from FF AND WAI in retaliation...think I can kiss wet t shirt pics and mud wrestling goodbye).


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> You are likely right, Wazza. I know when he first left, I hoped. When I found out about OW (which wasn’t right away but not that far into it), I guess there were periods where I still had hope. Maybe I knew our marriage was over and was just struggling and hoping beyond hope. I honestly don’t remember. I do remember accepting that it was over sometimes and planning for a future without him, and other times falling back into devastation. After the first email she sent, I remember thinking, “he can’t possibly stay with her now”. But he did. There was a definite up and down! The second email from her....yes, I knew it was over between us. Turned out I was wrong!


I would need to go back and reread....it doesn't matter beyond giving insight to WAI. And the awareness that there can be happy endings. I think you guys were closer to the brink of divorce than WAI is.

I was sooooooooo glad when you guys reconciled. Not as glad as you I know!!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> (Awaits twin thermonuclear devices from FF AND WAI in retaliation...think I can kiss wet t shirt pics and mud wrestling goodbye).


remember OT said no such things when photos go out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> So making sense of a woman or representing her utterances as logical is harder than putting a man on the moon.
> 
> I see your point.
> 
> (Awaits twin thermonuclear devices from FF AND WAI in retaliation...think I can kiss wet t shirt pics and mud wrestling goodbye).


Oooooooooooooooo! You do realize you have just declared war!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I would need to go back and reread....it doesn't matter beyond giving insight to WAI. And the awareness that there can be happy endings. I think you guys were closer to the brink of divorce than WAI is.
> 
> I was sooooooooo glad when you guys reconciled. Not as glad as you I know!!


I was actually surprised that he hadn’t started the proceedings and seemed content to simply keep things as they were.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> remember OT said no such things when photos go out
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you......!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> And you......!


Whaaaaa???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> Whaaaaa???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Still after wet T-shirt and mud-wrestling pictures. Honestly!!


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Let the girl recover from the virus from hades before you drench her. Geeze people.

LOL

Feel better WAI


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Still after wet T-shirt and mud-wrestling pictures. Honestly!!


And your point is?

]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> And your point is?
> 
> ]
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You men are all alike!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

old timer said:


> And your point is?
> 
> ]
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Watch her OT...she's feisty!!!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Watch her OT...she's feisty!!!


Haha...a puzzy cat compared to what I've been living w the last 24 yrs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

old timer said:


> Haha...a puzzy cat compared to what I've been living w the last 24 yrs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shhhh. You are right but her husband is paying me to help get her under control!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Really, we can put a man on the moon, but we can’t create one that understands what a woman means


Too funny FF! Love this!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks guys - the humor makes me feel better...and if I remember correctly the promise I made was if we should R mud wrestling and t-shirt pics are in the thank you's! 

Feel horrible today - gonna work this morning for a bit but will be couch bound for the afternoon...

He is supposed to come by tonight but I may tell him not too - he cannot afford to be sick right now....

Thank you SO MUCH for making me laugh...great way to wake up!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Thanks guys - the humor makes me feel better...and if I remember correctly the promise I made was if we should R mud wrestling and t-shirt pics are in the thank you's!
> 
> Feel horrible today - gonna work this morning for a bit but will be couch bound for the afternoon...
> 
> ...


I probably I don’t have to tell you this, but being sick you might not be thinking straight. Don’t TELL him not to come. Express concern about him getting sick. Say you ate worried if he comes over he will catch the bug. Leave the decision up to him.

I’m glad those two Doofuses make you laugh. But war has been declared. You may have to chooses sides!  

Feel better soon.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Shhhh. You are right but her husband is paying me to help get her under control!!!


My husband is a Sumo wrestling Green Beret. Careful about taking his name in vain!


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks FF! I am leaving it up to him..told him I would spray all the furniture down with disinfectant and will stay upstairs while he is here so he does not get it....I know my daughter misses him terribly so I knew I had to leave it up to him....

.....hope all this ends in two weeks.......uugghhhh


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> I’m glad those two Doofuses make you laugh. But war has been declared. You may have to chooses sides!  .


Doofus? Really?

You're right...it's on now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> Doofus? Really?
> 
> You're right...it's on now!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oooooooooo! I'm scared!! 

What are you going to do? Throw water on me?


----------



## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Oooooooooo! I'm scared!!
> 
> What are you going to do? Throw water on me?


Got a camera?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

....did I mention I am a photographer?!!?!? Really, I am!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ....did I mention I am a photographer?!!?!? Really, I am!


Yes, you did. 

So I expect the wet-T shots to be of superior quality.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I promise clarity and focus...... ;-)


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> and if I remember correctly the promise I made was if we should R mud wrestling and t-shirt pics are in the thank you's!


You don't recall correctly. You were going to send them immediately. I am quite hurt you haven't.

Since wet t shirts are very good for you when sick, you should take and send some photos immediately.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wait...have you not also said that during this time my emotions will be on a roller coaster and I will go back and forth a million times in my thinking...

....well now I think I will send them when I R!!!!!!

You get him home.....you get wet tshirt pics....



I am such a B****


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

ANd you may be proud of me Wazza....he texted this morning how D and I were doing I said "she is good me not so much"....

I got nothing back....

...and I dont give a ****....have not even given it a second thought until just this moment.....

...although a "hope you feel better" would have been nice...

...and you wonder why I am so confused...one day I think he cares...the next I dont.....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> Got a camera?


Yes, but if I throw it at you, it might damage the camera.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ANd you may be proud of me Wazza....he texted this morning how D and I were doing I said "she is good me not so much"....
> 
> I got nothing back....
> 
> ...


Go back and re-read what NewLife posted.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

FF you are funny as heck! My camera is big - it will HURT when we throw it! 

I did, I reread it like 4 times yesterday.....it was one of the best articles I saw through this whole thing...

But funny thing is he just texted me about 10 minutes ago "busy day, how you feeling"


----------



## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

It's almost like some weird mating dance y'all are doing.


----------



## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Maybe he's doing his own version of 180s??

Funny last few posts BTW, I've been doing catch up. Love the deal R for wet tshirt, ha!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

old timer said:


> It's almost like some weird mating dance y'all are doing.


Says he who is worried about the quality of the wet t shirt pics!!!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Says he who is worried about the quality of the wet t shirt pics!!!


Hate sounding like a broken record, but....


your point is?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> Hate sounding like a broken record, but....
> 
> 
> your point is?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my goodness, WAI, they don’t even get each other, How can we expect them to get us!


----------



## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Oh my goodness, WAI, they don’t even get each other, How can we expect them to get us!


*Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus* 

..
.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Good book. Wish he would have read it like he said he would.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wish my husband would read any book like that! 

So yesterday I got TWO texts from him....without me texting first....so that felt good. He came home last night to visit our daughter but fell asleep about a half hour after he got here - turns out he is sick too.....about 7:30pm he said "I should go" --- I told him I would prefer he just stay, if he felt that bad I did not want him driving.....so he stayed and left this mornign for work...

I shot him a text this morning telling him to call if needs anything and that I hope he feels better - he texted back you too.....

So here we are about a week away from that month mark......and I am STILL totally clueless as to how this will play out - and am terrified of hearing those dreaded words "I need more time" or "I want a divorce"......either one I know I need to stay strong and be OK with it....but am terrified......

......I know patience is my friend......but I am scared.........


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

What will you do if he says he needs more time? "More time" is better than "D"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> What will you do if he says he needs more time? "More time" is better than "D"


Well, since I cannot do anything until April anyway, I will just wait it out....we have that family trip the last week of March so I will not do anything before then since I want to make sure we have a great time together....but if he is not home by April 1, then I will file in April.

I just do not think we are making any progress......I am not willing to wait for 6 months or a year like others do.....I know what people tell me....but I just think being separated is making us further apart.....just do not see the benefit in our case....


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I just do not think we are making any progress......I am not willing to wait for 6 months or a year like others do.....I know what people tell me....but I just think being separated is making us further apart.....just do not see the benefit in our case....


You need to trust your instincts on this. Full 180 is not working. Your goal is to try and reconnect. There isn't an OW that we know about, so try and reconnect. You have been working on yourself and that is great. 

Do you remember:


workingatit said:


> ...he asked why i was in such a hurry....why is everything a knee jerk reaction....
> 
> ....he basically said I am rushing it....its only been 3 weeks....why cant I go with the flow....he hates when I do the "knee jerk" reaction thing...and that he would talk and get help when he is ready....
> 
> ...


You said this on Sunday after a bad morning with him. After this exchange he gave you a hug. It is not a stretch to say that this is encouraging. He has noticed a difference and he likes it. He wants to make sure it is real before he comes home. 

You said you wanted to try to detach more this week. I don't think that is the right move and so far it hasn't happened. I would like everyone else's opinion but with 1 week left on his timeline, I think you need to slowly create a new normal in this relationship for communication, and hopefully make it something positive. He has not stepped up to redefine how the communication is supposed to be, so I guess it will be up to you to take the bull by the horns and do it. I remember vividly, that when the W and I were at our lowest points in our relationship we lived in the same house, she slept upstairs, I slept downstairs and we communicated by email. Do you think that is very conducive to reforging bonds and intimacy? 

The W and I now save text messages for sweet nothings every day and to send critical info. If you want to talk to him or need to communicate I think you need to start doing it more by phone. Be sweet and be loving. The W and I sometimes call each other just because we want to hear each other's voice and to say I was thinking about you and I love you. It is personal and it is what happens in a good healthy connected relationship. This is what you need to strive to create. I realize it takes two, but as I have tried to explain, sometimes it only takes 1 person to really make the commitment (you remember Fireproof) and then it just becomes contagious.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You and I have a different situation, workingatit, but we share the impatience gene. I want instant results and I push hard to get them. That's not always a good thing.

I've read your thread from the beginning and my advice, for what it's worth, is live in today when dealing with a separation. Don't look at tomorrow or next week or next month. I am about to begin the process of getting a divorce after a very long marriage. It was not a quick decision. In order to get through the time remaining until I file, I only live in today. I will deal with tomorrow when I get to tomorrow.

Impatience can cause impulsive decisions (I have a long list of them I've committed and regret).

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.


----------



## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

You don't feel y'all are making any progress?

Look at the second paragraph of your first post this AM. 

You're killin me here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> Hate sounding like a broken record, but....
> 
> 
> your point is?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Frostflower said:


> Oh my goodness, WAI, they don’t even get each other, How can we expect them to get us!





old timer said:


> *Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus*
> 
> ..
> .


Darn, it the multi-quote lost Wazza’s comment that started this.

Anyway, here we have two Martians who don’t understand each other. How can they possibly understand us Veniusians?....Venusettes?....well whatever we’re called, our planet stands a better chance of triumphing here! We undeerstand each other.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I don't think that is the right move and so far it hasn't happened. I would like everyone else's opinion but with 1 week left on his timeline


I agree, I do not think detaching is the right move either - which is why I have not really done it.....I am keeping my contact limited but just could not do a full contact - my heart was saying it was the wrong thing for us - since some of our issue is him thinking I did not want to be with him anymore, I thought no contact would solidify that in his mind....

I hate texting as well.....but honestly have no reason to call him.....he is not a phone guy by any means anyway --- he does not even call our daughter, their communication when he is gone is all text...that is just who he is - we did not even talk on the phone when we were dating all that often.....so calling him would be awkward.....he will talk a lot in person, just not a phone guy....but when he is here we do talk....

Tron, if only you were a fortune teller.....I could really use an answer about now!!!!


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You don't feel y'all are making any progress?
> 
> Look at the second paragraph of your first post this AM.
> 
> You're killin me here.


LOL! Yeah, I am a little slow OT!


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

My W says that one of the things that she loves about me most is that when I put my mind to things, I can just make it happen. It is how I won her back after our M blew up...and some of the things I have suggested to you are many of the things that I did. I was not afraid of rejection. I got plenty of it, but I was undaunted and relentless in pursuit of my goal. I did counseling, got a better understanding of where and why we had failed, and made the changes that I needed to make to me. Then I moved on to her. I am not saying that I was pushy or forcing things that weren't there, but I was steady, focused, and ...relentless.

I still haven't won the lottery though and you guys are way out there in cyberspace...so not sure how my MOJO here in Texas is going to help you guys


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Tron, if only you were a fortune teller.....I could really use an answer about now!!!!


OMG! WAI....i think that if we all had not hit on this before...we have finally found the single most important thing for you to work on. PATIENCE!

You, young lady need to find an activity or outlet where you can develop this PRONTO. When you are sitting around talking with H you need to tell him you finally understand that this is one of your biggest problems and find a way to develop this. I am 100% sure that he is going to say "I AGREE"!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So she rejected you a lot during your attempts at reconciliation? That is why I hold back from more attempts at connecting with him....I hate hearing him say no since it breaks my heart every time.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LMAO! 



> I am 100% sure that he is going to say "I AGREE"!


We touched on this on Sunday....I assured him I am working on patience and "go with the flow" in my life.....the counselor is helping me address both of these, but even she admitted it will take time...I am wound too tight and she thinks I have been like this for years....and she is right.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

:smthumbup:

He texted me 2 texts about our refinance....and the 3rd text was "how are you feeling btw"

He DOES care! Even though he is sick too......

See......this is ALL I need from him.....is that too much to ask?!?!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> OMG! WAI....i think that if we all had not hit on this before...we have finally found the single most important thing for you to work on. PATIENCE!
> 
> You, young lady need to find an activity or outlet where you can develop this PRONTO. When you are sitting around talking with H you need to tell him you finally understand that this is one of your biggest problems and find a way to develop this. I am 100% sure that he is going to say "I AGREE"!


Give me patience. Right now, I don't like waiting!!!


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> You said you wanted to try to detach more this week. I don't think that is the right move and so far it hasn't happened. I would like everyone else's opinion but with 1 week left on his timeline, I think you need to slowly create a new normal in this relationship for communication, and hopefully make it something positive. He has not stepped up to redefine how the communication is supposed to be, so I guess it will be up to you to take the bull by the horns and do it.


I agree 100% that WAI should work on communication, not detachment.

I don't agree that he hasn't stepped up. WAI We Ll see the need for you to work on patience, what if he does too?


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I know he does.....which is why I am avoiding ANY talks about us...and even my best friend yelled at me and said STOP SAYING THE D word.......he has not said it since October yet you still bring it up.....it is as good as saying you still want one if you are still spewing it out there....

......and you all have said the same thing......

....I told him I am working on my patience issues, but have not shown him that yet....so I am sure he will be afraid to come home because of that....so if needs another month he has got it.....

....I PROMISE with all I have I am stepping back from any relationship talk or pushing him to make a decision....

Things are going OK - not great....but OK.....hope to stay on that path......clearly he has not said the D word, so he is not totally there yet....I know I need to work with that...

.....and I did just text him a big thank you for the work he is doing on the refinance.......being a month or 2 ago I made him feel like crap for even thinking about with not knowing whether we were getting divorce or not....

Now I have to pray he is not using the $$$ we are saving for an apartment.... :-(


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Give me patience. Right now, I don't like waiting!!!


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Stop mocking me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> He texted me 2 texts about our refinance....and the 3rd text was "how are you feeling btw"
> 
> ...


From the 5 love languages I had you pegged as a words of affirmation kinda gal about 2 weeks ago. Does he for sure know that this is what he needs to do to make you feel loved, wanted, secure, etc.? Has this been an ongoing discussion with you guys? Some guys are just really dumb and need to be hit with a 2x4 to actually figure out what to do right to make their girl happy. Not me of course...but just sayin'.

Not sure how you responded to that text but a "The flu is kickin my butt and I was feeling really crappy, but the fact you asked me that makes me feel really good right now."


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Stop mocking me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I promise to continue to mock you until your whole aura has the zen-like qualities of the Dalai Lama... How bout that!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Stop mocking me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It shall continue until photos are forthcoming. You better hope Frostflower doesn't chicken out on the mud wrestling.

Seriously, you are doing well. Hang in there.


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I promise to continue to mock you until your whole aura has the zen-like qualities of the Dalai Lama... How bout that!


Geez no pressure there.....what a pal! 

I think it would be easier just to post pictures...then you will all go away right?!?!!? 



> Not sure how you responded to that text but a "The flu is kickin my butt and I was feeling really crappy, but the fact you asked me that makes me feel really good right now."


Well being he is sick too I just wrote back "thanks I am feeling better - how about you? I imagine your fever kicked in by now?"

And he did respond back he is freezing and feels horrible....I wrote back that he better make sure he takes care of himself....

....it felt like a good overall text day......but still not getting overly excited.....I did thank him outright yesterday for asking how I was doing as well.....and knowing he is asking when he is not feeling well either makes me feel even better....

.....i miss him......a lot......I know he does not miss me as much since it is hard to miss someone who has been so crappy to you......I think of that every day....... :-(


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> It shall continue until photos are forthcoming. You better hope Frostflower doesn't chicken out on the mud wrestling.


You have a 1 track mind. Too bad it is in the gutter.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> You have a 1 track mind. Too bad it is in the gutter.


And how scared would I be if I thought she might do it


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I think it would be easier just to post pictures...then you will all go away right?!?!!?


Well.....yes. But you can still chat with the ladies around here.




workingatit said:


> ....it felt like a good overall text day......but still not getting overly excited.....I did thank him outright yesterday for asking how I was doing as well.....and knowing he is asking when he is not feeling well either makes me feel even better....


If you don't ever tell him what it is that makes you feel good, special, cherished etc., how are you ever going to get your needs met? Men are not mind readers and sometimes we are pretty dumb. Frostflower will certainly attest to that! Thanking him is great and lets him know he is appreciated, but he may already know that (I think he does). The next step is to let him know that he as a man is wanted and that he can fulfill your needs. Take that next step. The difference may seem to be pure semantics to you, but the difference is actually quite significant. If he knows what makes you feel good and feel close to him, his natural inclination is going to be to do more of it. And you know why . That is a win win for everyone.

This is the communication improvement where you are able to communicate your feelings in a non-confrontational way, that delivers the message without starting an argument. You were clearly able to communicate this to him on Sunday on the negative stuff. The same goes for the positive. I don't see the positive reinforcement in your emails. That is what is needed to take it to the next level and give him the feel-good reinforcement he needs. And you know what? There is no reasonable possibility of rejection by adding that simple statement. What is he going to say?...I wasn't trying to make you feel good? That would be cruel IMO. He is going to say "thanks" and process...




workingatit said:


> .....i miss him......a lot......I know he does not miss me as much since it is hard to miss someone who has been so crappy to you......I think of that every day....... :-(


Oh woe is me! Stop beating yourself up about it. The same exact words from H on Sunday evening. Both of you did this. Onward and forward. Chin up. You can do this!

And I thought my cheerleading days were over...


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I am trying Tron....I did send a separate text thanking him for handling the refinance.....I am trying to be more aware of those little things.....

And you cheerleading days are not over until he is home..... 

And I am moving onward and upward.....just hard when you get those pangs of "missing" someone.....I know I know...patience is still my friend.....

Patience right now is my least favorite friend though....


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Just missing him isn't going to bring him home. If you have read any other threads around here you will figure that out pretty quickly. Things like snowball fights, partying together, dancing, touching, love, words and actions that make him feel wanted and appreciated, gifts...try and figure out what is the most important to him and work on those things. 

You are making progress...keep going


----------



## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Wazza said:


> And how scared would I be if I thought she might do it


Not one bit from the sounds of it


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Just missing him isn't going to bring him home. If you have read any other threads around here you will figure that out pretty quickly. Things like snowball fights, partying together, dancing, touching, love, words and actions that make him feel wanted and appreciated, gifts...try and figure out what is the most important to him and work on those things.
> 
> You are making progress...keep going


Think about what he needs to do for you, then turn it around. He has needs too.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> It shall continue until photos are forthcoming. You better hope Frostflower doesn't chicken out on the mud wrestling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> And how scared would I be if I thought she might do it





BFGuru said:


> Not one bit from the sounds of it


Thanks, BFG. Wazza has reason to be scared whether I mud wrestle or not!


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Tron said:


> Just missing him isn't going to bring him home. If you have read any other threads around here you will figure that out pretty quickly. Things like snowball fights, partying together, dancing, touching, love, words and actions that make him feel wanted and appreciated, gifts...try and figure out what is the most important to him and work on those things.
> 
> You are making progress...keep going





Wazza said:


> Think about what he needs to do for you, then turn it around. He has needs too.


These are wise words, WAI. (Even the ones from Wazza.)


----------



## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> > It shall continue until photos are forthcoming. You better hope Frostflower doesn't chicken out on the mud wrestling.
> ...


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> Frostflower said:
> 
> 
> > Someone mention mud-wrestling?
> ...


----------



## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> lol OT, you are irrepressible!


*((((IMAGE REMOVED))))*

*
Incorrigible*, according to my stbx

.
.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Oh, my!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey WAI, you have been quiet a while. Everything ok?


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

If I looked like that, I would mud wrestle.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

HI Wazza....I am down and out with the flu - day 4.....I was not even on the computer after lunch yesterday and it looks the same for today....it is kicking my butt, and I am a touch cookie - so you know its bad......I just read everything here though and you guys crack me up - thank you for the morning humor!  I will check back when I can.....back to bed I go.....uugghhh


----------



## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Had some texts this morning about us both being sick this morning...he asked how I was feeling and I him...told him I was worried about him and wish he would take a day off of work - he said he could not....told him I hope he is feeling better soon....he wrote back you too.......I feel like he does care a bit.....

2 Questions.....not sure if I ever really just came out and asked these...

1) If a man is totally 100% sure he wants a divorce, is there any reason he would do a separation......it seems most guys are no nonsense.....and if he really wanted a D he would have just said it right? 

The one thing that has stressed me all this time is that in October he said he wanted a divorce....first time I ever heard those words from him.....but have not heard the D word from him again........

2) I believe his rental is paid through the last day of Feb. But at this point I am guessing the consensus here is that I wait for him to talk to me about what lies ahead right? I would be dumb at this point to address "us" on any level........

Just clarifying so I play my cards right....no sure if he will even be here this weekend since he sounds really sick......I do not even want to ask him to come home so we can take care of him since I think he sees that as me "luring" him so to speak......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Had some texts this morning about us both being sick this morning...he asked how I was feeling and I him...told him I was worried about him and wish he would take a day off of work - he said he could not....told him I hope he is feeling better soon....he wrote back you too.......I feel like he does care a bit.....
> 
> 2 Questions.....not sure if I ever really just came out and asked these...
> 
> ...


Give me a P....

Give me an A.....

Give me a T......

Give me an I.....

See where I am going with this? I know you are feeling sick, but stop trying to wrap a cloud around every silver lining. He's now texting you as you wanted, expressing concern for you as you wanted, and you are still trying to see a problem.


----------



## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> 1) If a man is totally 100% sure he wants a divorce, is there any reason he would do a separation......it seems most guys are no nonsense.....and if he really wanted a D he would have just said it right?


Not necessarily, imo. 

I think he said that from a "hurt place", and although he may have meant it at the time - considering he hasn't mentioned it since - I believe he is evaluating the situation.

How many times do I have to remind you that he is on the same emo roller coaster you are riding? 

Geez - I thought my W was the most impatient person on the planet - but you take the cake. I'm being damned serious here.

..
.


----------



## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Had some texts this morning about us both being sick this morning...he asked how I was feeling and I him...told him I was worried about him and wish he would take a day off of work - he said he could not....told him I hope he is feeling better soon....he wrote back you too.......I feel like he does care a bit.....
> 
> 2 Questions.....not sure if I ever really just came out and asked these...
> 
> ...


I wish you would stop picking apart and trying to analyze every little detail of every little thing your trying to pick his brain and pick his moves..pick this apart pick that apart ...not every little thing needs to be about a 'move you make' because he says this or does that... 

Don't you see yet? He either will work at it or won't. Your trying to 'control' that of which you can't...so hard. You need to relax and let the chips fall where they may...no wonder your always so stressed and resentful. You need to just let some of this crap go...I'm tellin' ya. You keep living your life like this...one he does get home it's not going to work anyway. I know you hate hearing this from me...I know you do...but this is just more of the same type of stuff that he will pick up on and see you as controlling and run. 

Just let things play themselves out naturally...if he's going to want to work it out...he will...he has a mind of his own...you need to stop playing this as if every move 'you make' is going to make some big difference...it's not in the long run. You may win these little daily battles of yours on 'how he's doing and what he wants and what direction is he going for the day'....but in the end it's going to be what it is...

and for craps sake woman...your sick on top of it...give your dam brain a rest...just give it some time without picking every detail apart...live your life where it's at and let him just be who he is...that's what he's struggling to do...be who he is like it or not. 

Again this is just my two cents and I'm not trying to be mean...but shxt woman...you stress out your own self...


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Again this is just my two cents and I'm not trying to be mean...but shxt woman...you stress out your own self...


Beginning to stress me out too, Stella - and that's pretty hard to do, lol

.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

old timer said:


> Beginning to stress me out too, Stella - and that's pretty hard to do, lol


Keep in mind she's venting here and under pressure and that's ok. Doesn't mean she is like this with her husband, or with anyone else when things are going ok.

You're going to be fine WAI. Good things come to those who wait.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OMG I am so not like this with him - just doing some out loud thinking with my "friends"....and honestly I have not even thought about it much the last few days - I have been THAT sick....


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> OMG I am so not like this with him - just doing some out loud thinking with my "friends"....and *honestly I have not even thought about it much the last few days - I have been THAT sick...*.


Now, I don’t have time to read all this right now, but I think I have the gist.

Before some tells you stay sick so you continue not to think about it, WAI, take a deep breath and think it through a bit further. He has done nothing the past few days to make any of us think he is throwing in the towel. We’re not sick. Trust us!

If we sound mean, it because we care and we don’t want to see you blow it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Just clarifying so I play my cards right....no sure if he will even be here this weekend since he sounds really sick......I do not even want to ask him to come home so we can take care of him since I think he sees that as me "luring" him so to speak......


Too much thinking but you know me. I am going to throw my 2 cents worth out there and suggest you just text him "why don't you come home and let us take care of you." If luring is a big deal to him, he says no. He might say no for other reasons too. Then again, he might need some TLC and say yes ... what do you have to lose?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

And its not like your trying to lure him in with a hot pic or something. That would never happen... oh wait!!!

BTW, he liked that too!

Oh yeah and did I tell you that was really brave? Hmmmm.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

He did text me later in the day asking how I was feeling and told me he was leaving work early.....I texted him back with "Please come home if you need some TLC"

He said he was already home and was going to bed and he would see us tomorrow......I feel bad he is all alone....at least I have our D......

I did not take it personall at all....so no worries......he knows I am really bad too....and he was already home....

...........and yes I know about Patience......clearly that is going to be the longest thing for me to fix within myself..... :-(


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Outstanding! Baby steps...


Just curious, how long has it been since you told him you love him?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Probably that email I sent 2 weeks ago.....I cannot say it ----- the lack of ANY response is more than I can handle right now......

Honestly I think he gets uncomfortable when I say things like that...last week I said I missed him...his response was something very cold.....I think i posted it here somewhere not sure exactly what he said off hand...but it hurt.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

He said awwwwww.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

ok so i took it wrong.......point taken......not convinced i love u is a good move right now...dont want to make him uncomfortable or feel pressure....just going with the flow....and hopefully my actions will show him i love him...words will come in time


btw....last sunday...while he was on the computer....I actually snuck up and scratched his back.....another thing I have not done in a long time....after a minute or so helifted his shirt.....it felt good......

....so i am trying to do little things like that.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> btw....last sunday...while he was on the computer....I actually snuck up and scratched his back.....another thing I have not done in a long time....after a minute or so helifted his shirt.....it felt good......
> 
> ....so i am trying to do little things like that.....


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ok so i took it wrong.......point taken......not convinced i love u is a good move right now...dont want to make him uncomfortable or feel pressure....just going with the flow....and hopefully my actions will show him i love him...words will come in time
> 
> 
> btw....last sunday...while he was on the computer....I actually snuck up and scratched his back.....another thing I have not done in a long time....*after a minute or so helifted his shirt.*....it felt good......
> ...



He lifted his shirt, WAI. Didn’t tell you to stop. Didn’t move away. He lifted his shirt.

Enough said.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Okay, enough serious stuff! 

Here is a real-life comment on Mars/Venus, people.

Two weeks ago, my son had his wisdom teeth out. When he came out of the anesthetic he was wasted for a couple of hours. Couldn’t stand up, let alone walk unaided. Was really dopey-looking and silly. Spent close to two days in bed.

Yesterday my daughter had her wisdoms out. When she woke up, she was a bit unsteady and rather giggly, but within a very short time she was alert and able to walk out of the office holding onto my arm. (My son nearly knocked me over several times). She sat in an armchair at home and got most of her own drinks, pills, etc. She is on milder pain meds than my son and is using less of them.

Now I know pain tolerance varies from person to person, but isn’t this a pretty typical difference, Ladies? 

Really the ‘cliche’ is true. If men bore the offspring, the human race would have died out long ago.

Bet WAI recovers in a shorter time than her husband!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Really the ‘cliche’ is true. If men bore the offspring, the human race would have died out long ago.


It would be true in my case. But not because of the pain. 

I couldn't bear to lose my figure.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Okay, enough serious stuff!
> 
> Here is a real-life comment on Mars/Venus, people.
> 
> ...


With the greatest of respect FF this is utter tosh.

Case in point, the births of my children. Both my wife and I were there. I was a bit tired, but fine. She on the other hand was on all sorts of painkillers and had to have stitches and stay in hospital a few days, for goodness sake. I have spoken to friends and found my experience is typical. Clearly women are just nowhere near as strong as men.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> With the greatest of respect FF this is utter tosh.
> 
> Case in point, the births of my children. Both my wife and I were there. I was a bit tired, but fine. She on the other hand was on all sorts of painkillers and had to have stitches and stay in hospital a few days, for goodness sake. I have spoken to friends and found my experience is typical. Clearly women are just nowhere near as strong as men.


My greatest hope for you, Wazza, is that in your next life you come back as a woman.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

You too, Old Timer.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

so we are both. sick......all 3 of us are sitting watching tv....he blurts out "we need a new couch" (the one he is on is not comfortble) - as sson as he said it he retracts with "I mean you need a new couch for when you have people over" ---

Then he throws out there how when we are on vacation we do not need to do everything together....

I quietly go upstairs....he asks "where are you going" - I said upstairs....

I did not cry...but the couch comment hurt like hell.....are you all going to tell me what he is doing is not cruel? It is like he is trying to hurt me or really tes me and either one is a ****ty thing to do....

As far as I can tell this is a guy who wants out......


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> With the greatest of respect FF this is utter tosh.
> 
> Case in point, the births of my children. Both my wife and I were there. I was a bit tired, but fine. She on the other hand was on all sorts of painkillers and had to have stitches and stay in hospital a few days, for goodness sake. I have spoken to friends and found my experience is typical. Clearly women are just nowhere near as strong as men.


excuse me?

Get back to me when you bear a vagina and a 8 to 10lb human takes anywhere from 15 to 20 hours coming through it...

With all due respect. 

Bite me.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

grab your lower lip Wazza...and try pulling over your face to the top of your head...and don't stop til your done...*hehe...


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

WAI, e realized that he had made a slip, and quickly tried to cover it. Go with the first statement. He is thinking of you as a family, but doesn’t want to commit to that yet..

Get better soon.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> so we are both. sick......all 3 of us are sitting watching tv....he blurts out "we need a new couch" (the one he is on is not comfortble) - as sson as he said it he retracts with "I mean you need a new couch for when you have people over" ---
> 
> Then he throws out there how when we are on vacation we do not need to do everything together....
> 
> ...


...and here I am again...

this is the exact type of crap that will continue...because he needs counseling...he needs to 'want to work at it' so he stops making these statements and 'commits' to the marriage. Again...even if he comes home...this is the type of crap that will continue and again...you will resent it...and go upstairs...because he's not doing his part. He doesn't 'have too'...he's not put on the spot too...

I realize the 30 days thing...but what then? He comes home and then you endure more of this since he refuses counseling? Your marriage won't work this way...I'm tellin' ya. Told you this since the beginning...and I'm saying it again. All these signs and wonders on the good days won't make a bit of difference unless he makes a change from the inside...with that growth and knowledge and acceptance on his part in the way he treats you. 

What I'm doing here is trying to tell you I sit back here and I see him hurting you and I get pizzed. So I type...and have my say...I don't chime in with the others on how I think this will work this way because I don't think it will. Period. I know this type of guy. Do I know it all? No. But your on TAM and I'm going to chime in also and again...your my friend...and he's friggin hurting you...but dam girl...your letting him. 

I know you want this to work...don't we all??? Didn't we all want our marriages to work? It...takes...two. He's an azzhole. And your the only one trying...rinse repeat...

I know you might be rollin' your eyes at me...but I'm wanting to hug you...just know this...I've been you.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Keep in mind she's venting here and under pressure and that's ok. Doesn't mean she is like this with her husband, or with anyone else when things are going ok.
> 
> You're going to be fine WAI. Good things come to those who wait.


I realize this as well....I got that...but what I also am trying to get across for the millionth time is the pain of false hope. 

This guy is NOT going to wake up one day and be a changed man. He's NOT going to wake up and have an epiphany and all of a sudden own his crap and start treating her with respect and working at the marriage and be sorry for all the hurtful things he says and does to the very day. I mean miracles happen but I don't see this guy doing this and daily you guys give her this false hope that he's going to come home and the world will be a better place for her...

she will be happy he's home...but nothing will be changed!! 

A guy like that does not change UNLESS he WANTS to make his marriage work and better himself. In order to do that MC and IC needs to happen...a professional needs to help him realize how his behavior hurts his family...in his head he doesn't think he does anything wrong...he even feels its justified...or that if she..didn't do or say this...he wouldn't do or say that...etc.. this will be a never ending cycle..in her marriage...she can change allll she wants...he on the other hand...will be the same... 

and with this happening....this is going to be a very sad marriage where she is hurting and resentful like she is now...and it will end in divorce...

At the end of the 30 days...or when she's ready...she should tell him he either needs to get HELP...to SAVE this marriage...to help HEAL...this marriage to make it SURVIVE and THRIVE...or she needs to end it...

Flame away...but I stand by my take...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> so we are both. sick......all 3 of us are sitting watching tv....he blurts out "we need a new couch" (the one he is on is not comfortble) - as sson as he said it he retracts with "I mean you need a new couch for when you have people over" ---
> 
> Then he throws out there how when we are on vacation we do not need to do everything together....
> 
> ...


I think going upstairs quietly was probably appropriate.

So is saying to him "You know I want to work things out. You know I have asked you to commit to coming home, or tell me if you want a divorce. You have done neither, and we are in limbo. I am trying to give you the space and time we agreed to to work things out, but it is very hard for me, and the couch remark hurt," ie tell him how you feel.

We all push you about patience, but I do get how hard this all is on you and that it really hurts. And you are doing well in trying circumstances WAI.

I still don't read it like a guy who wants out. If he wanted out, why was he on the couch in the first place.

Maybe you could ask him if he has decided what he wants to do in 30 days.

Maybe you could ask him what the holiday remark meant. I don't understand it.

Be strong. Stay the course.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> I realize this as well....I got that...but what I also am trying to get across for the millionth time is the pain of false hope.
> 
> This guy is NOT going to wake up one day and be a changed man. He's NOT going to wake up and have an epiphany and all of a sudden own his crap and start treating her with respect and working at the marriage and be sorry for all the hurtful things he says and does to the very day. I mean miracles happen but I don't see this guy doing this and daily you guys give her this false hope that he's going to come home and the world will be a better place for her...
> 
> ...


Flame away? Whatever for? I agree with a lot of what you say, and in the bits where I disagree, you may be right. The beauty of TAM is you get lots of perspectives and can pick between them to find what works for you.

I agree that false hope is painful and cruel.

I agree that when he comes home he will be in most respects what he has always been.

I agree he has issues to work on - I think they both do, being human - but I don't agree that MC and IC are the only way. When my wife had her affair I suggested MC and she refused. (Like many in the throes of an affair she blamed me for everything that was wrong at the time, and told me so in no uncertain terms). So I have had 23 years to learn about working on relationships without counselling. Though she did later, of her own choice, get counselling for some of her issues. I currently think she needed it because of how she thinks, but for me I find books, the suport of close friends with similar experiences, and even TAM more helpful than IC or MC. 

IE, I agree with you about the problem, but I see other solutions. I also think he can make great strides in being better, but he will always be fundamentally who he is. As will WAI. She will always feel impatience, the most she can do is manage it better.

Doesn't mean I advise against MC by the way. I think they should try it.

And I agree with you that WAI should chose a deadline and stick to it.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Stella - I know you are 100% right. 

Wazza - keeping my mouth shut.

I actually TRIED to do a nice thing and said why don't you stay here tonite and I will go spend the night somewhere (he is sick, our daughter misses him, I did not want him to drive - and I could use a night away)...

He goes "what the hell you cant be here with me!" ---

SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!!?!? You leave every night because you do not want to be here with ME. WTF.

How do I even respond to that one?!?!?!?! I ignored it, I am not putting my heart out there anymore. I am done. I am sick of being the nice one....and he can say whatever the hell he wants to hurt me....

Again, Stella you are 100% right.

I am letting him treat me like this.......and I am so close to being done with it all. Not making any rash decisions, but starting to really feel like divorce is a better option. 

He is doing NOTHING. Sitting home alone every night is not helping yourself. If you know you need help and you know counseling is something you need and you continually say "I will go when I am ready" - I say your family is pretty irrelevant if you are not ready NOW.

Just my opinion of course......if he had any interest in saving this...he would have done SOMETHING by now...its been 4 weeks...and its all been on me.....

I am guessing because he thinks he can come how whenever he wants there is no point in him doing anything....well, I am about to call his bluff....because I do not want him home after this 30 days.....I need more time......how about that.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Stella Moon said:


> I realize this as well....I got that...but what I also am trying to get across for the millionth time is the pain of false hope.
> 
> This guy is NOT going to wake up one day and be a changed man. He's NOT going to wake up and have an epiphany and all of a sudden own his crap and start treating her with respect and working at the marriage and be sorry for all the hurtful things he says and does to the very day. I mean miracles happen but I don't see this guy doing this and daily you guys give her this false hope that he's going to come home and the world will be a better place for her...
> 
> ...


Stella,

No flame here because I actually agree with you 100%. Only thing I really don't know about is how much better he will be with a woman that has made changes and is actually engaged and trying to connect...and maybe the timing of the demand for MC and IC. It will have to come eventually because as you say, the resentment will build and WAI will slowly work her way back to where she was in Nov/Dec.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

well MC..IC...TAM...books...friends...'anything'...but I don't think he's 'engaged and trying to connect'...I see his ways more of keeping her hanging by a string...he's got his mean comments...and once he swings one direction...'couch comment...then another direction'...'why can't you stay here with me'....
this is BS! Mental fking... that's my take...he messes with her head...so he gets whatever he wants at the time and yet keeps her at arms length...

oh for fks sake dude...shxt or get off the pot!!!!! WAI...unless 'you' start calling the shots your 'never' going to know how this is going to end...your a yoyo to him...he plays you. Up down up down up down...

...and you let him...because of false hope. And false hope exists because you think one day...a bulb will go off in his head...and it won't. 

Unless he 'seeks' help...of others of 'any kind' for craps sake...he will forever remain the one who mind fks you. 

"He needs to shxt or get off the pot so WAI can have a life with respect and love due her"... 

this guy gives her alienation and disrespect and does it daily. Hes a jackazz with emphasis on the azz. 

You guys have gotten to know her better in these last weeks...you telling me by now you don't realize she deserves better and that he's not a deadbeat? Really??? 

I want her to save her marriage but she's 'not saving it' with a guy...who's not saving it!!!!!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Just my opinion of course......if he had any interest in saving this...he would have done SOMETHING by now...its been 4 weeks...and its all been on me.....
> 
> I am guessing because he thinks he can come how whenever he wants there is no point in him doing anything....well, I am about to call his bluff....because I do not want him home after this 30 days.....I need more time......how about that.....


You have said as much to him last week that you felt you were the only one working to improve. And, with his avoidant personality, are you really surprised by his inaction? Not me. And I wouldn't make any rash decisions while you are angry. I think it is easier to work on things while you live together, but that is because of my experience and because of what I have been told by counselors. This kind of bluff could backfire on you and take this relationship straight to D.

Have you been formulating a plan on how a R is going to work for you? What is going to be required from H? Counseling, books together...?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Stella Moon said:


> this guy gives her alienation and disrespect and does it daily. Hes a jackazz with emphasis on the azz.
> 
> You guys have gotten to know her better in these last weeks...you telling me by now you don't realize she deserves better and that he's not a deadbeat? Really???
> 
> I want her to save her marriage but she's 'not saving it' with a guy...who's not saving it!!!!!!!


I can't argue with you here Stella, you are right. But this is the man she loves and wants...until she doesn't anymore. 

And he hasn't said he doesn't need help, he has said "when he is ready". Knowing WAI, i think that she may force the issue and that time may come sooner rather than later. But I don't know how he will react to a demand like reading a chapter of one of the books every night and discussing or going straight to MC/IC. They have had issues over control in the M too, so...his answer is not so predictable.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Have you been formulating a plan on how a R is going to work for you? What is going to be required from H? Counseling, books together...?


Honestly, I have not given it much thought until the last few days. But truth is, I am done thinking about anything at this point in time. 

I am closer to asking for a divorce than i am a reconciliation. 

I have put up with a lot of these behaviors for a really long time - but it has always gone through phases...so for months we could be fine, and then we would go to this type of crap....

I just do not think I want to even do this anymore.....

I need to get away to clear my head......and that fact that i said I would leave tonight so he can stay with our D and he TURNS IT ON ME like I am doing something bad to him just
proves that no matter what I do - it is wrong....

I am not saying anything to him at this point and am not talking about anything.....just need to get my head clear and will talk about all this with my counselor this week....

And I know he will not see a counselor EVER - he is good at telling me things but not following through....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and Tron..the "bluff" is not a bluff but a fact....but I am sure he will think its a bluff since he believes not a word I say.....

Truth is I do deserve better......and I have known that for a long time.....but I made vows and am committed to my marriage....but like Stella said....I cannot do it alone....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

What would he say if you said "H, I think it is time that we go to a session. I have been working really hard but i have reached a point where i need some help from you. I have an appointment set up on --- date. Will you be there?"


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron said:


> What would he say if you said "H, I think it is time that we go to a session. I have been working really hard but i have reached a point where i need some help from you. I have an appointment set up on --- date. Will you be there?"


Last time I asked about 2 weeks sgo...he told me that ship has sailed.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I remember that was right after he left the house. Things have progressed a bit since then.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ...and Tron..the "bluff" is not a bluff but a fact....but I am sure he will think its a bluff since he believes not a word I say.....


Sorry Wai, but you hadn't said previously that you wouldn't take him back after 30 days...until today. You sounded pretty pizzed with him, so i wasn't sure if that was just anger talking, or whether you would actually do it after calm consideration...obviously not a bluff if you don't let him come home. But will calling his bluff based upon principal (to prove you mean what you say) be in your best interest? D's? The M's?

Do you think he is still angry with you? Because when W and I were at our worst points in the marriage lashing out like this was not uncommon for both of us. 



workingatit said:


> Truth is I do deserve better......and I have known that for a long time.....but I made vows and am committed to my marriage....but like Stella said....I cannot do it alone....


. 

We all agree with you, and long term you are right, you can't do it alone...of course long term to you might be tomorrow


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

The counseling thing is just something he keeps evading....and I am done. I am going, I am making progress - I cannot force him and every time I ask he just gives me a bull**** line or I will go when I am ready (which means never).

He just left....we did not even say goodbye.....granted he is miserablly sick....I am probably 2 days ahead of him in feeling better....

But I TOLD HIM to stay here and I would leave...why would you not appreciate that and accept. He spent no time with our daughter - yes, I get he is sick....but then you should have stayed home....

He said he would be back in the morning...he is getting her a bagel...did not ask if I wanted anything and made it clear he is only staying a couple of hours as opposed to the whole day like usual....

......honestly I think he is falling further into a mental state that I want no part of.....he is miserable........

Again, I am not making any rash decisions here.....I have no intentions of having any conversations or talks...and will wait to see what he says at this 30 day mark......who knows maybe he is feeling the crunch of the time coming so quick....

.........but he is not coming back without going through counseling and to figure out if he has depression....the Dr Jekyll mr hyde thing is getting really old......and he cannot comprehend how difficult he is to deal with.....

And for the record.....here are a few things I did today - just to show I care:

1) Washed a blanket I was using all week so he can have a clean blanket if he needed it.....(he never used it said he did not need, but used an old sheet instead)

2) Asked if I can get him anything to eat....(he said no, but then rummaged through the cabinets complaining there is nothing to eat - ummm you do not live here...there is plenty of food for us, just not you)

3) Got him a bowl of ice cream when he said he would like some ice cream....

So I am TYRING and you can see the repsonse I get.......

.....can you see why I am just about done?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

and Tron you hit the nail on the head....whenever I say anything I think he does see it as me trying to "control" him....clearly that is not the case....but no matter what I say or do - he turns it into that.....I never forced him to counseling.....I never gave ultimatums....I asked if he would go for HIM......

He is broken......he knows it........


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> and Tron you hit the nail on the head....whenever I say anything I think he does see it as me trying to "control" him....clearly that is not the case....but no matter what I say or do - he turns it into that.....I never forced him to counseling.....I never gave ultimatums....I asked if he would go for HIM......
> 
> He is broken......he knows it........


Yep...rock and hard place.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I just cannot get past tonite...what is his thinking by saying "what you cannot be in the same house with me"...HE IS THE ONE WHO LEAVES every Saturday......

I am so stuck on that......he cannot see ANYTHING I do as a positive.....I thought he would appreciate it.....and instead he gets mad and twists it.......

....is he really this insecure?!?!?!?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I just cannot get past tonite...what is his thinking by saying "what you cannot be in the same house with me"...HE IS THE ONE WHO LEAVES every Saturday......
> 
> I am so stuck on that......he cannot see ANYTHING I do as a positive.....I thought he would appreciate it.....and instead he gets mad and twists it.......
> 
> ....is he really this insecure?!?!?!?


Quite possibly. Take it from me, years of rejection has an impact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

WAI, Stella and Tron have agreed your husband is a deadbeat who is not trying. I don't agree. It might be true, or it might not.

Being really honest, you are on such an emotional roller coaster that I do not trust your judgement. Sorry, not trying no hurt your feelings, but I need to be honest.

I think saying "you can't come back unless you go do counselling" could be regarded as controlling. But you could say, "not getting back together until you work on your depression". Just bear in mind that it is easy for a depressed person to give up, and that you are talking a very short time to address a decade of issues. Your husband could be forgiven for thinking of this as an unreasonable demand.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Tron said:


> Quite possibly. Take it from me, years of rejection has an impact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ya...i dont think this is from years of rejection....this guy is a Passive aggressive...he processes things differently than you and I ...she's right. No matter what she takes...she's wrong...and he can and does twist it to suit his needs for whatever he wants at that moment. That's how he rolls and will continue to roll...this has nothing to do with 'her'...he's this way with or without her and was this way before her...she didn't make the man he is. Period.

Who he is and what he does he needs help with...we all agree with that...but she's not at fault for how he is...that doesn't mean he is incapable of bitterness because of past mistakes by her (not what I am saying) but a guy like this is not capable of true forgiveness without help...nor is he capable of self awareness and responsibility for how he hurts. He process things differently...this is hard to explain but I'm tellin' ya I read her posts every day...and shy of the physical abuse...she is describing my husband. I have gone to two counselors regarding him (he's seen the two also so there was a time he wanted help)...three now if you count the current...(who deals with PA's for a living)...
Not trying to 'diagnose'...can't do that...you know what I mean...this is just my two cents...and my input based on my experience and the research i've read on this type of personality. 

I can't predict the future...I can't predict people...and of course she loves him~! Crap...I love mine too and I'll never get to 'fix' my guy...why?....because he didn't 'want to be fixed'....it was easier for him to just blame me...and walk away. I embraced his crap...wanted to deal with it...work with it...as did the counselors...wanted to help him...but stbxh...it was too hard for him...it's easier for him to just find someone else who doesn't know his faults and start over...and he will just start the cycle over...just as his ex wife and I talked about...my stbxh will always live in this chaos because he cant communicate nor 'give freely'...and is always on the defense...I know what she means about not being acknowledged for doing good...we just can't 'win' with these guys...it sucks...it's such an unfulfilling relationship. One sided. My husband always made me out to be the bad guy...and called me crazy...turns out that is their (PA) favorite MO. 

Again...sigh...just speaking from my experience. I really wanted my marriage to work... I mourn the loss of the good times...when It looked like he was recognizing his issues...he had found Jesus and things were so wonderful and he was going to IC etc...then one day...I remember the day...I seen him going right back to his old ways...like an alcoholic reaching for the bottle...and he just went with it...it was just easier for him...and then 'wham'...one argument...he was gone...I didn't exist to him. ...just like that. Not a phone call...nothing. It was easier for him to just run...and his parents enabled him...his dad treats his mom the exact same way...and he's living with them...watching this crap every...dam day...and my stbxh...has three kids...two are sons...so we have two more PA's in the making...the little girl is already in counseling...and the stbxh and brothers are consistently being scolded by their mom (his ex)...to stop putting her down...making her cry and teasing her...she's 10. It's crazy what I'm tellin' ya...but this family...his family...omg... 

I'm rambling here...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> WAI, Stella and Tron have agreed your husband is a deadbeat who is not trying. I don't agree. It might be true, or it might not.
> 
> Being really honest, you are on such an emotional roller coaster that I do not trust your judgement. Sorry, not trying no hurt your feelings, but I need to be honest.
> 
> I think saying "you can't come back unless you go do counselling" could be regarded as controlling. But you could say, "not getting back together until you work on your depression". Just bear in mind that it is easy for a depressed person to give up, and that you are talking a very short time to address a decade of issues. Your husband could be forgiven for thinking of this as an unreasonable demand.


Look, deadbeat may be a little harsh, but, WAI, do you think he even realizes when he says these things that he is hurting you? Is he that socially inept and incapable of empathy? Or is this just lashing out from anger? Going to your room and pouting isn't necessarily the best answer either, and I get that it may be very difficult in the moment to stand up and say "you know what, what you just said really hurts me, because... And H, why did you say that". It is important though that you do that. If he doesn't care, well, I don't know what to tell you about him that Stella hasn't already.

What would he say if you had a note waiting for him in the morning saying exactly what you told us? i.e. "H, you said this yesterday and it really hurt. I thought when you said it that you did not care for me or my feelings, that you dont want me around and that is why I suggested that I leave. I didn't make that suggestion because i don't want to be around you, but because what you said made me think that you did not want to be around me. This is the kind of poor communication that we seem to have all the time that leads me to believe that we need some serious counseling. Our wires are just getting so criss-crossed that we just can't seem to communicate our feelings effectively and everyone is getting upset. We just had 2 really great weeks and then this...we need some help."


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Passive aggressive is certainly a possibility, and I bow to your experience here, Stella. However, even if that is the case, it is possible that he is very confused right now and this may be behind the current roller coaster.

You are both still sick and run down, WAI. I would tread very cautiously.

I like Tron’s idea of the note. This takes away the face-to-face element and the risk of an immediate and unfortunate defensive reaction and resulting escalation. One thing I would add is a statement of what you want. For example, ‘I am committed to doing everything I can to make this marriage work. A counsellor can give us strategies to improve our communication. I want you to come with me so that we can learn them together. I believe we are worth it.”


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> ya...i dont think this is from years of rejection....this guy is a Passive aggressive...he processes things differently than you and I ...she's right. No matter what she takes...she's wrong...and he can and does twist it to suit his needs for whatever he wants at that moment. That's how he rolls and will continue to roll...this has nothing to do with 'her'...he's this way with or without her and was this way before her...she didn't make the man he is. Period.
> 
> Who he is and what he does he needs help with...we all agree with that...but she's not at fault for how he is...that doesn't mean he is incapable of bitterness because of past mistakes by her (not what I am saying) but a guy like this is not capable of true forgiveness without help...nor is he capable of self awareness and responsibility for how he hurts. He process things differently...this is hard to explain but I'm tellin' ya I read her posts every day...and shy of the physical abuse...she is describing my husband. I have gone to two counselors regarding him (he's seen the two also so there was a time he wanted help)...three now if you count the current...(who deals with PA's for a living)...
> Not trying to 'diagnose'...can't do that...you know what I mean...this is just my two cents...and my input based on my experience and the research i've read on this type of personality.
> ...


Do you have a thread for your story Stella?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I like Tron's suggestion too.

You need a game changer.

I haven't made the time to write my story in more detail...my bad...I promised but it has been a crazy week.

But here is a tidbit.

After my wife's affair, we went in stages. First, we built enough of a relationship to be effective coparents. Then we became friends again. That took a few years. Then over time we fell in love. That is a continuing journey. It's been 23 years. 

Perhaps that explains why I think 30 days is a bit short to fix everything. 

If I am honest, my journey is a work in progress,and always will be. My aspiration is to be as close to my wife, in every way, as if the affair had never happened. This is probably impossible. It will always hurt me. From time to time I remember it. Sadly, I think I always will, but I deal with it much better nowadays.

AFter 23 years, maybe it makes sense that I think 30 days is a little short.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> WAI, Stella and Tron have agreed your husband is a deadbeat who is not trying. I don't agree. It might be true, or it might not.


I would definitely not call him a deadbeat - again, he is a great guy, he just has issues that he has not dealt with.

If I had said to him yesterday how I felt about that statement it would have turned into a fight, it was easier to shut up. The fact that I offered to let him stay the night and I leave turned into a fight is proof enough that no matter what I say he will twist....but I am also trying to keep in mind we are both pretty sick....so I am trying to not take things personal...

...and Stella is right - these behaviors were always present in our relationship....actually in every relationship he has ever had....remember this is a guy who has dealt with immense guilt for treating his parents like crap......

So while, yes the last few years may have made his self worth even less than it was - these issues were already there.

Wazza...he is NOT coming home after the 30 days.....

Truth is I am finally reaching the point that I do not want him home ever......

This is all just a game to him....and because of past history of me always taking him back, he is confident he can just come back when he feels like it so he will keep this in limbo for as long as he would like.....

My game days are over.......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> WAI, do you think he even realizes when he says these things that he is hurting you? Is he that socially inept and incapable of empathy? Or is this just lashing out from anger?


I so wish I had an answer for this one - truth is I have no clue....sometimes I really think he i totally apathetic and does not realize how bad his words hurt.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ....sometimes I really think he i totally apathetic and does not realize how bad his words hurt.....


What does your gut tell you because these two really don't go together. One indicates he says things and doesn't care about the impact and the other says that he says things but doesn't realize the impact. These are very different. If he doesn't realize the impact until you tell him and he then understands then you have something to work with. If he says these things without caring how they impact you before and after then that is something different and your overall assessment of the man that he is a good guy is suspect. Do you follow?

Only thing with this is that I think you might need to try to make this type of evaluation putting aside the past year or so of your marriage. Things have been bad and anger and frustration and lashing out might play a big part in what he says these days. You two are still on the roller coaster...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I would definitely not call him a deadbeat - again, he is a great guy, he just has issues that he has not dealt with.
> 
> If I had said to him yesterday how I felt about that statement it would have turned into a fight, it was easier to shut up. The fact that I offered to let him stay the night and I leave turned into a fight is proof enough that no matter what I say he will twist....but I am also trying to keep in mind we are both pretty sick....so I am trying to not take things personal...
> 
> ...


Why is he NOT coming home in 30 days. Which of you has decided that, and why?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Why is he NOT coming home in 30 days. Which of you has decided that, and why?


My choice Wazza. We have not dicussed anything at all though. Like Stella said what would be the point of him coming home if his behaviors have not changed?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

SO today he arrives around 9am...I was outside cleaning the sidewalks..he comes out and helps and comments on what a surprise it is to see me doing it....(usually I leave outdoor stuff to him).....

Yesterday he said he was only going to stay a couple of hours, but he just left.....so he was here for 8 hours. 

Nothing exciting to report though.....at one point I was upstairs trying to nap....he came in and laid next to me...asked if I ws dizzy too - i said yes.....the coughing is killing me he said him too....then he said something again about me needing a new couch.....and then asked if I needed him to take our D so I can have a night out...I said yes soon...I want to start getting back out more again. And then he made a comment about being here less time on the weekends....I have NO IDEA where that is coming from....he already does not see our daughter enough..

Then a commercial for a dating service came on and he said I should sign up for that.....I said I am not ready for that...he said YEAH RIGHT got up and took a shower.....


Other than that.....the day was average.....we watched the race, talked, joked, I ran out and got food for us......he said feel better when he left and that was that.


I did hug him early...he told me I did not have too...I said I know I want to.....he did not pull away but did not hug back.

I really thought he would have spoke this weekend....technically the lease is up the end of next week......so clearly he has not intention of coming home or it would have been discussed by now....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Passive aggressive is certainly a possibility, and I bow to your experience here, Stella. However, even if that is the case, it is possible that he is very confused right now and this may be behind the current roller coaster.
> 
> You are both still sick and run down, WAI. I would tread very cautiously.
> 
> I like Tron’s idea of the note. This takes away the face-to-face element and the risk of an immediate and unfortunate defensive reaction and resulting escalation. One thing I would add is a statement of what you want. For example, ‘I am committed to doing everything I can to make this marriage work. A counsellor can give us strategies to improve our communication. I want you to come with me so that we can learn them together. I believe we are worth it.”


WAI, I agree with FF here in that you shouldn't make any decisions based on what happened yesterday. You are both sick, run down and grouchy. I suggested the letter, one to put out there what it was that upset you and to clarify for him that his evaluation of your response was incorrect. I also was hoping to get a read on his reaction, thinking that might be insightful as to his current state of mind.

Just FYI, after 5 bad years or so of a more direct approach with W during our bad phase I also developed PA tendencies and hated it. I felt that I had to do it though because a more direct approach wasn't working and I got to the point where I felt compelled to dish out a little of what I had been getting from W. It didn't help. The point I am trying to make is that sometimes after a long time where you don't make progress in your relationship you look for other ways to make your point. It doesn't necessarily mean that you should be lumped in and characterized as a PA. Don't know about Wai's H, because she hasn't really delved into that too much. If he is exhibiting PA tendencies it may just be something he moved on to when other methods didn't work.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> SO today he arrives around 9am...I was outside cleaning the sidewalks..he comes out and helps and comments on what a surprise it is to see me doing it....(usually I leave outdoor stuff to him).....
> 
> Yesterday he said he was only going to stay a couple of hours, but he just left.....so he was here for 8 hours.
> 
> Nothing exciting to report though.....at one point I was upstairs trying to nap....he came in and laid next to me...asked if I ws dizzy too - i said yes.....the coughing is killing me he said him too....then he said something again about me needing a new couch.....and then asked if I needed him to take our D so I can have a night out...I said yes soon...I want to start getting back out more again. And then he made a comment about being here less time on the weekends....I have NO IDEA where that is coming from....he already does not see our daughter enough..


He has said this before and done nothing different...




workingatit said:


> Then a commercial for a dating service came on and he said I should sign up for that.....I said I am not ready for that...he said YEAH RIGHT got up and took a shower.....


You did spend a bunch of the wedding with that other separated man, but kudos for not taking the bait.




workingatit said:


> I really thought he would have spoke this weekend....technically the lease is up the end of next week......so clearly he has not intention of coming home or it would have been discussed by now....


Not necessarily "clearly", but it may be trending that way. The last day on the lease is the 28th?


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Nothing exciting to report though.....at one point I was upstairs trying to nap....he came in and laid next to me...asked if I ws dizzy too - i said yes.....the coughing is killing me he said him too....then he said something again about me needing a new couch.....and then asked if I needed him to take our D so I can have a night out...I said yes soon...I want to start getting back out more again. And then he made a comment about being here less time on the weekends....I have NO IDEA where that is coming from....he already does not see our daughter enough..
> 
> Then a commercial for a dating service came on and he said I should sign up for that.....I said I am not ready for that...he said YEAH RIGHT got up and took a shower.....


Do you know what runs through my (yes warped sometimes) brain? If I were you, and you did want this to end one way or another, after those comments I would literally yell at him "sh!t or get off the GD pot!!!" Seriously it sounds like he is desparately wanting you to tell him that you love him, there's no one else, you only want him, etc etc. He sounds extremely insecure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

If you are reaching a decision point, is it "Definitely over, no point discussing." or "Over unless he works on specific things, and I don't see him doing that"?

And is it ofer because you want it over, or over because you think he wants it over and you are protecting yourself?

I don't believe that ending the marriage will fix your pain in the short term. Therefore I believe it is worth trying whatever you need to try in order to give it a shot before you walk.

Can I suggest you draft a letter saying what you want to say, then show us the draft for suggestions? It might clarify what you are thinking in your head.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

FF.......could not agree with you more! I am just waiting until he approaches me about this relationship before I say anything.....he asked for 30 and I am giving him 30.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron I am not really sure the last day to be honest....he said he took it for a month....but he could have already paid for another month for all I know. I do not even ask questions any more.

And I get what you are saying about "giving" what he has been "getting" like you and Mr.s Tron - and maybe that is what he is doing. I do think on some level it is a big test.....to see how I "react"....

3 months ago i would have fought back with every mean thing he said...now i ignore and move on.....I do not think he is used to that....

I thought I read about PA not that long ago and he did not seem to fit that mold to me.....but I could be wrong....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza in 100% honesty it is because I am confident that is what he wants - not necessarily because I want to end this. I think he is giving me these signals for a reason.....he is too weak to come out and say it or do it......

I am not doing any more letters or emails or anything. My last email was more than clear about my feelings wants and love for him.....I am not sure what more I could even write.....I am chalking up yesterday to being incredibly sick tired and cranky so I do not want to address any of that......

I actually did not even text him last week - any texting was initiated by him......and I am not doing any this week either......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Do you know what runs through my (yes warped sometimes) brain? If I were you, and you did want this to end one way or another, after those comments I would literally yell at him "sh!t or get off the GD pot!!!" Seriously it sounds like he is desparately wanting you to tell him that you love him, there's no one else, you only want him, etc etc. He sounds extremely insecure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think something like this probably will need to be said.

I would not yell.

At the end of thirty days I would say to him. "We are either married or not. I want to be married to you but both if us have to want it. I am going to give you until....( whatever date) to make a decision. If you do not choose to come back and work on things by then, I respect that but I will assume you are not committed to the marriage, and I will make my arrangements and decisions accordingly. I will not separate and wait indefinitely. It hurts too much."

All if this assumes you want to work at it. If it's over, then just say so and move on.

Just whatever you do, be sure in your heart, and hold the course.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

That is where I am Wazza......my heart wants this to work......but my head does not see any way of that being possible......that is the realization I am coming to. I would be willing to have patience if I saw some consistency in our progression......or if we even had a plan in place....but we have neither....and talking about anything is out of the question....so holding on to hope is a joke.....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Wazza in 100% honesty it is because I am confident that is what he wants - not necessarily because I want to end this. I think he is giving me these signals for a reason.....he is too weak to come out and say it or do it......
> 
> I am not doing any more letters or emails or anything. My last email was more than clear about my feelings wants and love for him.....I am not sure what more I could even write.....I am chalking up yesterday to being incredibly sick tired and cranky so I do not want to address any of that......
> 
> I actually did not even text him last week - any texting was initiated by him......and I am not doing any this week either......


Take the decision out of his hands. Your feelings is half the story. He can only yank your chain if you let him.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I plan on doing that...but am not doing anything until after our vacation. I am nit risking ruining that trip.....so for the next 5 weeks I begin building my new life without him....then when we get home he makes a choice.....so this will all be resolved one way or another the first week of April....


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Do you have a thread for your story Stella?


just my wtf thread that's going...I had my first one and a couple after that...but deleted them right before I filed the OFP...I didn't want them found in case his side did an internet search on me...when I was googled they came up...I didn't like that so I deleted them. 

I surely would answer anything want to know of course but my wtf thread is out there..


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I plan on doing that...but am not doing anything until after our vacation. I am nit risking ruining that trip.....so for the next 5 weeks I begin building my new life without him....then when we get home he makes a choice.....so this will all be resolved one way or another the first week of April....


So, your first piece of homework is to settle ONI a direction and a timeframe and tell him.

I see one issue with your timeframe, and that is that you will be doing the holiday, then dropping a bomb on him. I think you need to allow him time to think. That means either telling him earlier and risking the holiday, or giving more time before your deadline.

You need to be very clear on the message you send. Think about the doubt his communication has created in you, and don't make same mistake.

I always found leading by example more helpful than discussion in my marriage fwiw.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> just my wtf thread that's going...I had my first one and a couple after that...but deleted them right before I filed the OFP...I didn't want them found in case his side did an internet search on me...when I was googled they came up...I didn't like that so I deleted them.
> 
> I surely would answer anything want to know of course but my wtf thread is out there..


Thanks will look for it. 

No big question, just helps to put our opinions in context.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I plan on doing that...but am not doing anything until after our vacation. I am nit risking ruining that trip.....so for the next 5 weeks I begin building my new life without him....then *when we get home he makes a choice.*....so this will all be resolved one way or another the first week of April....


I have a feeling he will not make a choice. I think he wants the decision to come from you. He is a very confused man. Is he capable of making such a life-changing decision? Perhaps that is why he stayed all those years when you were not treating him that well. He only left when you told him to.



Wazza said:


> So, your first piece of homework is to settle ONI a direction and a timeframe and tell him.
> 
> I see one issue with your timeframe, and that is that you will be doing the holiday, then dropping a bomb on him. I think you need to allow him time to think. That means either telling him earlier and risking the holiday, or giving more time before your deadline.
> 
> ...


I agree, Wazza. It would be most unfair to go on holiday with him only to hit him with that at the end of it. 

Go on holiday, WAI. Enjoy yourself. Let him spend extended time with the strong new you. Let him see the changes up close. When you get back, give him at least a week to process what he has seen. Then tell him that you love him and want the marriage to work, but that it takes two. Give him a timeline to decide if he wants to work on the marriage by seeking therapy.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> I have a feeling he will not make a choice. I think he wants the decision to come from you. He is a very confused man. Is he capable of making such a life-changing decision? Perhaps that is why he stayed all those years when you were not treating him that well. He only left when you told him to.


I have wondered the same and thought that the decision would ultimately be yours to make, not his.




Frostflower said:


> I agree, Wazza. It would be most unfair to go on holiday with him only to hit him with that at the end of it.
> 
> Go on holiday, WAI. Enjoy yourself. Let him spend extended time with the strong new you. Let him see the changes up close. When you get back, give him at least a week to process what he has seen. Then tell him that you love him and want the marriage to work, but that it takes two. Give him a timeline to decide if he wants to work on the marriage by seeking therapy.


I really like this

You've been worried about him not spending enough time around you to see the changes you've made... Well, you think he will be able to notice those changes with a whole week together?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks guys - point taken about the timing after the vacation. I will hold off for a week or so once we return then just to see what happens. There is no way I am doing anything before the trip since this means the world to my D and I will not disappoint her. 



> I have wondered the same and thought that the decision would ultimately be yours to make, not his.


I guess I do not understand this? Then there really is no choice....he is not coming home on his own accord, so my only choice is to file. I cannot force him to come home....and I really think even if I call him know, tell him I miss him and to please come home - he would not just to be stubborn.....it is like he does not want to do anything I ask or suggest.....hence my theory on game playing.....

Ironically when he was on the bed with me yesterday as soon as I mentioned solidifying a plan for visitation is when he walked away...

He CANNOT deal with anything right now....this is what I cannot deal with....we cannot talk about anything at all......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So in reading so much said above about him not making a choice and clarity of messages between us - I did something I have not done in weeks....I picked up the phone called him and told him straight out that I love him and I miss him and hope he is willing to come home soon to work on things.

He gave me an "awww", we chit chatted for a few minutes.....and then he thanked me for calling.....and wished me a good day.....

So that should put aside any doubts or confusion about what I want......


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> So in reading so much said above about him not making a choice and clarity of messages between us - I did something I have not done in weeks....I picked up the phone called him and told him straight out that I love him and I miss him and hope he is willing to come home soon to work on things.
> 
> He gave me an "awww", we chit chatted for a few minutes.....and then he thanked me for calling.....and wished me a good day.....
> 
> So that should put aside any doubts or confusion about what I want......


Straight forward "personal" communication with no mixed messages. I really like this WAI.

Just curious, was it a good awwww, or a sarcastic awwww? Never know with you two.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I guess I do not understand this? Then there really is no choice....he is not coming home on his own accord, so my only choice is to file. I cannot force him to come home....and I really think even if I call him know, tell him I miss him and to please come home - he would not just to be stubborn.....it is like he does not want to do anything I ask or suggest.....hence my theory on game playing.....


I haven't brought this up, but the W thinks there is some game playing going on too. If it's true, IMO you two are too old to be playing games like this. Regardless, you have a really complicated dynamic going on with H that doesn't lend itself to a solution without open communication and commitment from both of you. He likes control, you want him to take control, but he refuses to do it and avoids making decisions, so you feel forced to make decisions affecting both of you and then he resents you taking the initiative...does this sound right?




workingatit said:


> Ironically when he was on the bed with me yesterday as soon as I mentioned solidifying a plan for visitation is when he walked away...
> 
> He CANNOT deal with anything right now....this is what I cannot deal with....we cannot talk about anything at all......


WAI, Are you surprised by this? Not ironic at all. You just in a roundabout way played the D card again...he can't deal with that because he doesn't really want a divorce. If you don't want a D, you need to stop doing that.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I think it was a generally good AWWW not sarcastic....I was more shocked with the thank you for calling line...he sounded sincere that he really appreciated the call.....it is the first call I have made in weeks......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> He likes control, you want him to take control, but he refuses to do it and avoids making decisions, so you feel forced to make decisions affecting both of you and then he resents you taking the initiative...does this sound right?


YEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 



> You just in a roundabout way played the D card again...he can't deal with that because he doesn't really want a divorce.


This WAS NOT MY INTENTION!!!!!!! With solidfying a plan I meant for a continued separation...I asked him to stay saturday night so I CAN get out of the house...I am here ALL THE TIME.....he cannot just come and go as he pleases with no set structure and with not giving me time to myself.....

I need to get out of here to breathe too and I think he forgets that....all I wanted was for him to come up with a plan where he can stay here a few nights a month so I can get out and I wil stay elsewhere.....

......no intention of assuming it meant D


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I think it was a generally good AWWW not sarcastic....I was more shocked with the thank you for calling line...he sounded sincere that he really appreciated the call.....it is the first call I have made in weeks......


I have mentioned this to you before. I communicate with W pretty much exclusively by telephone or in person. Unless I am tied up with something important at work I always take her call or return it within a reasonably short time. It is personal and keeps us connected. If your trying to keep things unemotional or to stay distant, then text and email are definitely a great way to communicate.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Tron said:


> I haven't brought this up, but the W thinks there is some game playing going on too. If it's true, IMO you two are too old to be playing games like this. Regardless, you have a really complicated dynamic going on with H that doesn't lend itself to a solution without open communication and commitment from both of you. He likes control, you want him to take control, but he refuses to do it and avoids making decisions, so you feel forced to make decisions affecting both of you and then he resents you taking the initiative...does this sound right?


How much have you guys openly discussed this problem?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron said:


> I have mentioned this to you before. I communicate with W pretty much exclusively by telephone or in person. Unless I am tied up with something important at work I always take her call or return it within a reasonably short time. It is personal and keeps us connected. If your trying to keep things unemotional or to stay distant, then text and email are definitely a great way to communicate.



I know and I agree - but honestly we do not have much to talk about these days.....the separation is only making us further apart....and I have been unsure how receptive a call would be to be honest since I do not know where he is emotionally with me....

Once he realized I was not calling to yell at him or talk about us....he seemed almost happy to hear from me...

Again, this is the whole issue with never having a plan for this separation....I wanted to give him the time and space he needs to do whatever it is that he is doing.....

I am almost more confused now than I was at the start of this.......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> How much have you guys openly discussed this problem?


We haven't. Communication is 99% of our problem and the one thing I have asked him a few times over the last month that we go to cousneling for so we can both learn to communicate better and understand each other.....this is the one thing that would NEED to be done before I can even think of R.

I am afraid to talk to him about anything at this point without a 3rd party because of his ability to twist and misconstrue every single thing I say.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I know and I agree - but honestly we do not have much to talk about these days.....the separation is only making us further apart....and I have been unsure how receptive a call would be to be honest since I do not know where he is emotionally with me....
> 
> Once he realized I was not calling to yell at him or talk about us....he seemed almost happy to hear from me...


Happy is really GOOD! So what if you don't have much to talk about. It is the personal connection that you make with your voice that is important. This is why Wazza suggested last week just calling and telling him you don't have much to say but you just wanted to hear his voice. I don't know what his plan is right now, but a push to make these communications more personal is going to have an impact as long as they remain positive. 





workingatit said:


> Again, this is the whole issue with never having a plan for this separation....I wanted to give him the time and space he needs to do whatever it is that he is doing.....


Maybe he has a plan that he just doesn't want to share with you??? I doubt it, but he has had some time without a plan in place. You continue working on your plan and when the time is right commit to it. He may throw a wrench into it anyway...





workingatit said:


> I am almost more confused now than I was at the start of this.......


You and I both know that is not true. You have been bombarded with information on TAM and during counseling. You have slowly been absorbing it and compared to last month, you now have a much much better understanding of what is going on in your M and an appreciation for how you got here. Learned some lessons you have!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

BTW, What are you guys planning to do on your trip?

We did a Spring Break trip about 5 years ago to AZ. Had a great time. Didn't just do the Grand Canyon though. Probably should have spent another day there. Also got to do Red Rocks in Sedona...very romantic, the drive on 89A from Sedona to Falgstaff is really beautiful, did the jeep tour in Sedona, the meteor crater, drove up through the Indian Reservations and Painted Desert, cactus natl forest, and spent a couple of days in Phoenix. Lot of driving that week, but great fun.

You guys flying into Vegas or Phoenix?


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Tron....as always.....I do have clarity as to how we got here and what we need to fix.....my confusion just lies with him and knowing whether or not we even have a chance of this working....I just do not feel like I even know him anymore on some level. 

I get what you are saying about the phone totally....he sounded worried when he answered - like he thought I was going to "start" with him....I felt his guard up...until I asked how he was feeling.....then he loosened up a bit....I will try again later in the week....

We are flying into Vegas....hitting Sedona first - we are doing the pink jeep tour one day....then doing a helicopter tour of the canyon one day....we will definitely hit Red Rocks...my H and I were there many years ago so we are psyched to share it with our daughter (we actually got married in Vegas)......definitelin want to his up some Indian Reservations as well....thankfully our D is like a little adult and she loves all that stuff...she is all about learning and nature.....we have the only kid in the world who hates amusements parks and prefers museums and things...gotta love her!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I get what you are saying about the phone totally....he sounded worried when he answered - like he thought I was going to "start" with him....I felt his guard up...until I asked how he was feeling.....then he loosened up a bit....I will try again later in the week....


Then this is a something where he can see some immediate change on your part, even if he isn't home. Keep it up.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> This WAS NOT MY INTENTION!!!!!!! With solidfying a plan I meant for a continued separation...I asked him to stay saturday night so I CAN get out of the house...I am here ALL THE TIME.....he cannot just come and go as he pleases with no set structure and with not giving me time to myself.....
> 
> I need to get out of here to breathe too and I think he forgets that....all I wanted was for him to come up with a plan where he can stay here a few nights a month so I can get out and I wil stay elsewhere.....
> 
> ......no intention of assuming it meant D


Hmmmm......can't think of a gentle way to say this one.

You spend a lot of time here reading things into his every utterance and nuance, swinging between reconciling and divorce, and it is his fault.

Yet you talk about visitation....clearly a divorce related topic....and he is expected to know this relates to a continued separation, not a permanent divorce.

Had he done that to you you would be exploding right now.

Unless there is a lot more to the conversation, that is unfair. And if it not an isolated incident, then of course you are getting mixed messages, because you are sending them.

This is why you need to cut out the game playing and dancing around the subject and talk honestly. You need to communicate three things...your desire to make it work, your list of issues that need to be worked on, and the time limit he has to make a decision before you start to act on the assumption that the separation is permanent. No hints, no "he should know".

He has his issues, I am sure. But you have yours too (yes i know you are working on them, you admit he has improved over the years so he is making an effort too) and you are possibly about to end a marriage over poor communication that you both contribute too, and then take your poor communication into the next relationship where it will do the same damage.

Is that what you want?

I know you are making an effort and I know you are hurting. Sorry if this post upsets you but you are playing for keeps here. This is important for both of you, but there is a daughter involved as well.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza -- be as hard as you want...I see what you are saying - to a point.



> This is why you need to cut out the game playing and dancing around the subject and talk honestly. You need to communicate three things...your desire to make it work, your list of issues that need to be worked on, and the time limit he has to make a decision before you start to act on the assumption that the separation is permanent. No hints, no "he should know".


I have TRIED to talk honestly.....about 2 weeks ago.....everyone told me not to talk about it anymore so I stopped....at that time I TRIED to communicate with him about his needs and wants and what WE need to do....he said he was not ready to talk.

Two weeks later...he is still not ready to talk......

All I need to work on is patience.....

But honestly I do not see how me asking for a solidified visitation plan is saying I want a divorce.....and I am shocked everyone sees it that way...I am just sick of no structure in my life and am trying to work towards that but with him unwilling to ever talk about things it makes it hard....

I asked him to stay saturday night and I would go out for the night...he told me no - then made me feel horrible for saying I would leave so he could be alone with her.....and accused me of not being able to be in the same house with him....

I mean seriously....dont you think i have TRIED with him.....no matter WHAT I say it will come out wrong.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and I do not think it is me doing the game playing....he is.......he is the one who does not talk, makes rude comments and keeps this going with no sign of an answer about our future...I have been more than clear in what I want to achieve for us. He has not.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> ...and I do not think it is me doing the game playing....he is.......he is the one who does not talk, makes rude comments and keeps this going with no sign of an answer about our future...I have been more than clear in what I want to achieve for us. He has not.


Nonsense.

You send a clear divorce-related comment...I know that is not what you intended but based on what is reported I would sure take it that way. And he is expected to read your mind and know that is not what you meant.

You have not been clear. The visitation comment is an example.

You need to work on patience but you also need to work on communication.

Sorry, not wanting to hurt you but this is important.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> This WAS NOT MY INTENTION!!!!!!! With solidfying a plan I meant for a continued separation...I asked him to stay saturday night so I CAN get out of the house...I am here ALL THE TIME.....he cannot just come and go as he pleases with no set structure and with not giving me time to myself.....
> 
> I need to get out of here to breathe too and I think he forgets that....all I wanted was for him to come up with a plan where he can stay here a few nights a month so I can get out and I wil stay elsewhere.....
> 
> ......no intention of assuming it meant D


You needing a break is totally understandable and healthy, and you've mentioned a couple times that you don't think he is spending enough time with D. Does he feel the same? Why are you guys currently set up on a schedule that mirrors what you would have in a standard visitation agreement? Was this his idea or yours? Keep in mind you aren't divorced, so why the strict schedule? How do you feel about asking him to come home twice during the week instead of just once? That way you can take your one evening off and spend the other night and weekend hanging around with them in the house.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> You send a clear divorce-related comment...I know that is not what you intended but based on what is reported I would sure take it that way. And he is expected to read your mind and know that is not what you meant.


I did not see it that way...don't people who are separated typically have a schedule as well? 

Tron....he just comes when he feels like it...we discussed NOTHING. Which is why I wanted him to set up a schedule of some sort with me.....

Funny how something I meant so innocently can be taken so wrong......


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> I did not see it that way...don't people who are separated typically have a schedule as well?
> 
> Tron....he just comes when he feels like it...we discussed NOTHING. Which is why I wanted him to set up a schedule of some sort with me.....
> 
> Funny how something I meant so innocently can be taken so wrong......


No, no, you are missing the point.

I accept you didn't mean it that way.

But what if he thinks you meant it that way? A passive agressive threat. I can only go on what you report, but based on that, your words are open to more than one interpretation.

And I could go through the thread and pick out multiple examples of you reading the worst into his words that may also have been innocent. 

It is a double standard.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I haven't posted since the first page, but here's my thoughts, as someone currently in a separation (going on two years now, my choice, will be working on finalizing the divorce this year).

You have fluctuated a lot in here between wanting to work things out and wanting to just head to divorce, based on the conversations of the day/hour. And that's fine; this is your "safe place" to go through that stuff. Go ahead and vent about things that you can't vent with your husband. 

As far as the visitation goes... Maybe you can leave it till you two decide if this is a more "on-going" thing, or if he's going to move back home at the end of the month. If he decides he doesn't want to move back home after you've made it clear you'd like him to move home, then maybe it's time to start laying out a more formal agreement. It's not to say that you need to start divorce proceedings, but some accountability from him wouldn't be a bad thing. It's not fair that he gets to keep things in limbo and according to his schedule.

This may mean start figuring out separation of finances. It may also mean a more formal parenting schedule. You deserve (and need!) a break some evenings too! He needs to start understanding what "being separated" is really about; it's not just about walking away from your responsibilities and getting to do as you please.

Some things to think about...

C


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> But what if he thinks you meant it that way? A passive agressive threat. I can only go on what you report, but based on that, your words are open to more than one interpretation.


OK I get what you are saying......I really need to pick my words more carefully then.....I can see now how it could have been misinterpreted, although I really meant it so innocently when said .......I promised I would not say anything about a D again until after this trip - but you are right...he does not know that......you guys do - he doesn't......uggghhhhh


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Funny how something I meant so innocently can be taken so wrong......


I guess this is just another example of how things can get twisted around and that sometimes it goes both ways. It's ok WAI, I don't think your playing games, but your messages are mixed on occasion too. I am certain it is not intentional, you are just fishing for information and trying to communicate. You guys are in a very tough spot, and trying to work through one of the most difficult things a couple can ever have to work through and deal with. Nobody can be on their best behavior and say the exact right thing all the time (that cannot be interpreted in more than one way); especially when you guys are both in hypersensitivity mode. We see you in that mode every day and just as clearly we are seeing it on occasion when he comes and goes.

While you say there were no discussions or agreements, there has been an obvious and clear schedule with D now for 3 weeks...Wednesdays and weekends. Is this just the way it is happening or does he just tell you on Wednesday that he is coming? Would he come more if you asked? Do you want him to? PBear actually had it right, in that if your not really in a legal separation mode, I don't see schedule as needing to be particularly rigid. If the separation thing becomes more permanent then yes a set schedule needs to be maintained. If you need it, ask him for some alone time. But make sure that he doesn't interpret that as you not wanting to be around him, just you needing to get a little time to yourself or to run errands or whatever. We kind of already went through that misunderstanding scenario on Saturday.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> pick out multiple examples of you reading the worst into his words that may also have been innocent


this struck a chord with me too......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So he and my daughter were texting this morning and she asked him to come home...and he said "I want to move back home"....

uuughhhhhh......then why won't he?!?!

I wish there was something magical I could say.....and the sad part of all this is the pain of him being away is getting worse not better.....I feel worse today than I did a month ago....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just got a text...

"I think I'd like to move back but I think we need to talk first."

I responded with:

"I agree we need to talk...but having u home would be wonderful..."

He is going to be here tonight since we have a school event for D....so hopefully we can find time to chat......fingers crossed....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron, could not have done this without you and Wazza and OT! You guys kept me grounded and listened to me so H did not have to and made me see so many things I would have never saw on my own.....

I can see now that his actions the last few days were "tests" so to speak...and my lack of reaction to his trying to push my buttons is probably what he needed to see.......in the past I would come out defensive, fighting and pouting - now I am managing it all better...

Now just to hope we can talk without attacking each other and come up with a plan to continue to fix things.....I still hope he will do counseling with me so we can just learn to communicate better....

I know we are a long way from good.....and if I can get him to agree to talking to someone with me.....then I think we will be OK.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Moving back....    

Needing to talk....of course....this is all just a step in a journey.

Talking to someone.....be clear in your mind the difference between the problem you want to address and your proposed solution. For example, I would mandate "we have to work on communication", rather than "we have to go to counselling"

Maybe he was testing you...I don't know. Could it not just be that he was hurting and confused? Maybe wanting to be with you and scared that you didn't want him?

Ok, enough rambling. Good luck!!!!! Let us know how it goes tonight.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Agree with Wazza on this plus I would add:

This is just the beginning, a new beginning and hopefully a good beginning.

I think it would be wise to work up a list of things you think that you need to work on personally (forgiveness on the top of that list checked off) as well as what you guys need to work on together with some reasonably ascertainable goals. Don't make it too long or too critical. Maybe ask him to do the same and compare. Then get to work.

You guys both need to read AND FINISH, His Needs Her Needs and 5 Love Languages. I am sure that if you take those lessons to heart, your communication is going to improve noticeably. Work on the counseling thing too but don't push too hard to start off with...try and let him come around to it.

And, we are here to help. Good luck tonight.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Oh yeah...and be patient


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Working

Can I give you a little advice?

When you guys sit down to have the talk just listen to him.

Really listen to what he says.

He is not a good communicator. Maybe both of you are not.

But the man has fears. One of them is probably that the changes you are making, the changes you have made will not be permanent.

It is just a guess.

Be calm.

My fingers are crossed for you too!

HM64


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Oh yeah...and be patient


At once!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Working
> 
> Can I give you a little advice?
> 
> ...


Just listening is good advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cobre (Feb 24, 2013)

Just finished reading this thread, hope you the best and good luck with the talk.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

workingatit said:


> OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I just got a text...
> 
> ...


This is fantastic!  Girl you gotta be thrilled!!!!!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

First let me say I’m thrilled. I wish you an evening of love, good open communication and.....patience! Lots of deep breaths, WAI.

Now let me say, I’m so glad you got all this good advice today while I was at work, ‘cause when I read a couple of your posts, I was ready to scream! But the good people here talked and you listened. 

You’ve come quite a way in your journey. I hope its a journey you and your husband can finish together. 

Let us know how things go.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

All went well! He clearly has some hesitations about me being "nagging wife" again every night at 9pm - to which I said I understand your concern, and I guess only time will tell how solid my changes are!  

He is still not keen on the counseling right now - I said its OK, I am still going to go 2x a month for now for myself...he said good and he will go at some point himself.....

He promised to talk to me WHEN PROBLEMS happen not when they sit for weeks on end.....and we both agreed to let the past issues be done.....and if we should argue, those are things that are off limits.....we both agree communication is our biggest issue and we have finally put to down limits.....(like asking when is a good time for the other to talk, both sitting to talk, no attacks)

But even he said we have been getting along really well and he likes it....he stayed last night....and will be home over the weekend.....

We are taking it a bit slow...we both know we have to "get the love" back so to speak....but hopefully spending more time together will bring us closer to get back to that point....and I know he is still hesitant to let his heart totally open yet....

For this I CAN be patient though - at least he is home.....

It was a brief 10 minute conversation...he seemed relieved....and I know I was. 

And we are SOOOOOO much more excited now for this trip.....

I just do not know how to thank everyone here........if it were not for your help I would have ruined this weeks ago.......

Finally a day I can wake up and feel light......


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Awesome news for both of you. He has fears. That is ok.

Good job listening. Now work on communicating.

And definitely continue the counseling. I think he will go in the near future when he sees your results are improving you and your marriage.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Happyman! I hope he goes.....I will never force him, but I think it will help him find this source of underlying unhappy that he has....happiness is all I want for him.....I think he finally really sees that......


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and I TOTALLY GET his fears.....I would be afraid too if I were him....but his fears will be short lived....I will make sure of that.....goin gforward this will be a VERY happy home.....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ...and I TOTALLY GET his fears.....I would be afraid too if I were him....but his fears will be short lived....I will make sure of that.....going forward this will be a VERY happy home.....


That is fantastic WAI!!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I’m sooo happy for you WAI! You did great and I’m sure he will continue to see the changes in you and be inspired to work on himself.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Awesome! I'm excited and glad for you! I'm REALLY glad he said he would go to counseling! As i've stated imo you shouldn't be doing all the work and it sure sounds like he wants to 'work' as well...oh i'm so relieved to hear this!  ...he must follow through and it sounds like hes going to!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Stella! Have not checked in in a couple of days and just saw your message! One of the things I am finding this last week or so is that he definitely plays off of my mood more than I have ever realized - when I am happy and positive he really reacts the same, all the negativity I have been seeing from him was a direct response to me - not sure why I never saw that before....we have not had ONE issue in the last week....I have not even had to bite my tongue or anything...its been GOOD! 

He admitted he does not "totally" feel the love yet.....but he still every once in a while makes a remark about me going back to b**** mode in a few weeks...so I know he is still cautiously guarded.....which I totally get...

But we have never gotten along better......he left yesterday for a trip....he actually called last night (he travels a bit, but I cannot even remember the last time he CALLED ME!).....we have been texting every day - just a hi or have a good day....there is LOTS more laughing and flirting......

We still have work of course....and the hurt on both sides will take some time....but it gets a little better every day...and vacation is 2.5 weeks away so looking forward to a lot of great bonding that week! 

I could not have done it without everyone here though.....this board ROCKS!!!! Now on to the sex area to pick up some new tricks there too!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Suuuuweeeet. 

Have you read "5 Love Languages"?

Not for sex tips, btw 

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Well, well, well, I was wondering if we were going to get an update from you this week. 

So, if all of a sudden your in a good mood every day, where does that leave you guys? :scratchhead:


And OT, I have been trying to get her to read that book for 3 or 4 weeks now. She won't listen to me and probably thinks I am just some full of **** hick from Texas that doesn't know what he's talkin' about. Maybe she'll listen to an older and wiser man like you.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Great to hear the positive update, WAI! Isn’t the texting a nice touch? My H and I have been doing it since we got back together. Not every day, but its nice to know he is thinking of me and hopefully he feels the same when I text him. I’m home sick today and he phoned to see how I’m doing. Awwww!

I just bought the Love Languages book. We’re going to read it together. Hopefully it will help us understand each other better. We’re doing great, but I do think we speak different languages.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Nice update WAI!

Now keep focusing on you. Be the person you want to be. And watch your relationship flourish.

Keep updating us.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Tron Tron Tron - I heard you loud and clear on that book and it will be on my next library trip next week! I think we are finally at that point where I am ready to absorb on that one! I have read so many self help books and relationship books lately, and they have really helped! 

Thanks OT and Happyman! And Frostflower I hear you on the texts.....we stopped texting each other so long ago.....even phone calls were non existant....when he called last night my heart was so happy - he usually just calls our daughters cell phone to avoid me....so it was so awesome to have him call ME then talk to her.....usually when he travels I do not talk to him at all.....it is so wonderful....

....and our refinance is almost done....we have been working together on that and planning our trip --- so it is nice to be a "team" again....and with the refinance we will start tackling some projects around the house together.....

It is all so great......

I hope you too continue down the positive path......there is just nothing better than a GOOD marriage in my eyes....and I feel so hopeful that we can be that 30 year success story!!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

:smthumbup:


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Wow, such wonderful news! Am very happy for you!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Tron Tron Tron - I heard you loud and clear on that book and it will be on my next library trip next week! I think we are finally at that point where I am ready to absorb on that one! I have read so many self help books and relationship books lately, and they have really helped!


It is a 1 day read and might be a good for both of you to do together on your trip. 





workingatit said:


> ....and I feel so hopeful that we can be that *30 year success story*!!!!!


I am saying my prayers for you guys and I want THAT update. 


BTW, you let me know when your ready for some more tips. You get all guns blazing and he won't know what hit him...he'll be feelin' the love and naggy b**** is gonna be the last thing on his mind.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> And OT, I have been trying to get her to read that book for 3 or 4 weeks now. She won't listen to me and probably thinks I am just some full of **** hick from Texas that doesn't know what he's talkin' about. Maybe she'll listen to an older and wiser man like you.


Older and wiser, huh? Watch it grasshopper 

WAI - go to amazon. Buy it used for about 7 or 8 bucks + 3-4 bucks shipping. Well worth the price. This is one you'll want to own - not borrow. 

Had I read this 10 years ago, I most likely wouldn't be headed for divorce right now. I feel that strongly about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> One of the things I am finding this last week or so is that he definitely plays off of my mood more than I have ever realized - when I am happy and positive he really reacts the same, all the negativity I have been seeing from him was a direct response to me - not sure why I never saw that before...


WAI, I just reread this and this is really very interesting. You remember that I asked you about this in PM a week or two ago. Quite the enigma, your H. Maybe he is further along than you give him credit for.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> BTW, you let me know when your ready for some more tips. You get all guns blazing and he won't know what hit him...he'll be feelin' the love and naggy b**** is gonna be the last thing on his mind.


UMMMM - this I have to hear!!!!!!!! 



> WAI - go to amazon. Buy it used for about 7 or 8 bucks + 3-4 bucks shipping. Well worth the price. This is one you'll want to own - not borrow.


Actually ordered it from Amazon yesterday since I had some shopping to do - cannot wait to read it I know at least 10 people that have recommended it! Thanks OT!!!!!!



> WAI, I just reread this and this is really very interesting. You remember that I asked you about this in PM a week or two ago. Quite the enigma, your H. Maybe he is further along than you give him credit for.


I do remember, I think that is why I am so much more aware of it now......and he is definitely different....I think I mentioned I have girlfriends who think he is incredibly deep......he is NOT like other guys in so many ways......but I think you are right and I think he has done more changing over the last few years than I have really realized - he has grown so much in recent years - somehow I think I missed it being stuck in my own anger......

He is still a pain in the ass - do not get me wrong, but in an annoying 15 year old boy kind of way -  But as annoying as he is sometimes I love that boyish charm when it comes out!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> WAI, I just reread this and this is really very interesting. You remember that I asked you about this in PM a week or two ago. Quite the enigma, your H. Maybe he is further along than you give him credit for.




It is a two way street IMO.

Glad you are doing well.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

How are you doing?


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm so glad to see this happening for you. I know it's what you wanted.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Welp, methinks things are going really well or not so good.

I surely hope it's the former - not the latter.

,


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Hey everyone! 

Sorry been MIA! Life could NOT be better at this moment. We have been busy planning our vacation (leaving Sunday! First family vacation in 7 years and we are PSYCHED!) - trying to finish up our refinance and I just got offered a job that I am super excited about. I have been a freelance web designer for years and got burnt out dealing with clients and this wonderful telecommute position came my way and I am in HEAVEN......all the pieces have finally fallen together.

The last couple of weeks have been fabulous. We have not had one argument....we are both being open and honest with each other...we are working together on the mortgage, the vacation and everything....this is something that we have not done in years....we are almost a team again...

We laugh, we talk and we have fun together. 

We still have to work on spending more alone time together and we will do that when we get back from our trip.....and the emotional connection of course is still a work in progress.....but we are getting there.....

I am being PATIENT (I know hard to believe) - with the process, not pushing him to give more than he can give....but I can see him coming around....the more I show him my changes...the better he gets and the more I see the changes he has made - it is great.....

I have not even seen that cranky side of him since he has been home except for one night, and on that night he came out and said hey I am cranky - do not take it personally.....it was AWESOME...because in the past I just thought it was me....(which he has said on some level it was in the past - he hated coming home)....this time it was just a lousy commute....

Again, thank you to EVERYONE who helped me. 

If I did not come here and LISTEN (even though sometimes it seemed like I wasn't).....I am sure my outcome would not be this great......

I will check back in after my vacation.....and do more participating on the boards to try and help others....

YOU GUYS ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

I think you rock!

Great update, enjoy the time together and remember you are stronger together.

The key is two way communication.

Keep working at it....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks Happyman! Communication has always been more of his issue...but he is proving to be better about it...but I have learned to be patient...and not tell him when he needs to talk to me, but to wait until he is ready to talk to me....that is making all the difference!!!! My lack of patience has been a huge hinderance....

It is amazing how good it feels right now....and i know it will only get better.....

Even put the wedding band back on!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

This is a wonderful update to read!

As you realize the benefits of patience to your relationship, it will probably get easier for you. 

Enjoy your vaca and congrats on the new job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Awesome update! I am just so happy for both of you. 

Enjoy your trip, have fun and make some good memories. You guys have certainly earned it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)




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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

So happy for you, WAI! Have a great vacation and bring us back some more good news.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks so much guys! Confident the vacation is going to be AWESOME!

Just a filler...a LOT of our issues is that I have been a freelance web developer for about 7 years now...working on my own...with a freelancer or 2 working with me on overflow work....I have been stressed...I gave too much to my clients....and did not get paid for so many hours I worked (this was due to my wanting to make everyone happy issue) --- a normal day would have me working until 7 or so at night and most weekends....it was unhelathy on every level...then came the calls at night from clients...calls while we were out...etc......he got pissed....but he never told me at the time....this went on for YEARS.....oh and we wont talk about the random income because I was dependent on my cleints for payment...they delay launch, I do not get paid...I have had to sue 3 clients for not paying at all ( won all of them! )......still have not collected on 2 though.....so he saw me working and getting nothing for it.....some months I could not even put in my part of the money to live....its been unbearable...

That is why this job is a big deal.....its STEADY income - and a good one...its 9-5....its real vacation time and holidays - no calls 10pm at night ....but I still work from home! 

I have been a contractor for the company for 3 months....wanted to make sure it was the right place for me....and I LOVE them....I am not really meant to work for someone else - but this is so much like having my own little thing that its PERFECT for me....and the whole company is telecommute....so we can all relate to each other really well.

......I had the pleasure this week of telling all my clients I am NOT AVAILABLE for their silly questions anymore, I do not want emails about how to market their websites anymore....I do not want anymore contact from them looking for something for nothing (and no, I did not word it like that!) --- but told them I am no longer able to assist them - IT FELT AWESOME....its like a huge weight lifted....

So going forward....so much of our old issues are gone....

I have made a lot of changes the last 2-3 months to make me happier.....and every single thing I have done...has worked! 

Just amazing what you can do when you set your mind to it. I have not ever had an "easy" life, its always been an uphill battle......but right now I am riding this wave I am on and living it....things are not perfect....don't ever expect that....but there is a wonderful calmness.....and I will NEVER take that for granted again! 



And the best thing is.....he is starting to realize the changes are permanent....even though he still throws a "dig" every now and then...about a past behavior I laugh it off now......and I think that shocks him....

You guys taught me a TONNNNNNN!!!

Update you when I get back...but if we can do a week locked in a hotel and car and not fight once.....that will be my dream! 

Have a great day everyone!!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

The work news really sounds perfect for you. Good luck! 

Any of those tips working?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Just fyi, we travel quite a bit and it can be a bit stressful if your trying to stay on schedule with 3 kids. We will occasionally get testy with each other when travelling. If that happens with H, see it for what it is...just you guys outside your comfort zone a bit. You guys haven't done this in a very long time. It really isn't ever about too much time together for us or getting on each other's nerves...just stressful situations. 

Have fun!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Ya know, I'm really happy for you and all, but...

it just dawned on me there will be no perky t-shirt pics forthcoming.

:FIREdevil:


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Old Timer you and that one track mind...although not to throw Wazza under the bus or anything...but I have PM saying something VERY similar....hey, you NEVER know!!


Tron - have not had the chance to use all the tips yet....but we do have a couple of date nights planned....hard to do anything with a nosy 10 year old around...and I got you on the trip and schedule thing...we should do well our kid is like an adult...and we only have one....not sure I could even handle 3!!!  

Thankful for you guys.....you really saved this.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

...and kept me smiling as much as I could smile during it all!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

WAI

Make your dreams come true!!!!

Great progress so far.

And it is good to see your husband noticing your progress.

Keep moving forward and enjoy the vacation.

HM64


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> Tron - have not had the chance to use all the tips yet....but we do have a couple of date nights planned....hard to do anything with a nosy 10 year old around...and I got you on the trip and schedule thing...we should do well our kid is like an adult...and we only have one....not sure I could even handle 3!!!


WAI, 

Hey wait a minute here! The nosy 10 year old isn't supposed to be around on date night. That is supposed to be for you and H! 

I have two teenage girls and they both absolutely love sleepovers with their friends. They have been doing them since they were 9 or 10 years old. They still do them. I mean it, you and D's best friend's mom need to tag team on this and alternate weekends. They get a break, then you get a break. GOOD STUFF!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Old Timer you and that one track mind...although not to throw Wazza under the bus or anything...but I have PM saying something VERY similar..


Aw, that was supposed to be our little secret.

If you tell him about the thing with wet celery and the Batman suit, I am gonna be really upset!!!!!!!

Look, forget the t shirt and let's go straight timid wrestling with Frotflower!

I miss this thread


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Aw, that was supposed to be our little secret.
> 
> If you tell him about the thing with wet celery and the Batman suit, I am gonna be really upset!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Really??? Really....we’re back to this?!!

Honestly you two.....boys!

Tell you what. I’ll mud wrestle with WAI if you mud wrestle with Old Timer. :rofl:

And pictures? Do post you in the Batman suit. (leave the celery in the fridge.)

(That should shut ‘em up!)


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Damn Wazza,
You sneaky devil. Trying to get in PM what the rest of us have been patiently waiting for for weeks on the main thread. I don't think I like you any more.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Really??? Really....we’re back to this?!!
> 
> Honestly you two.....boys!
> 
> ...


I'm up for that provided he wears the batman suit and I get to use the celery.

Be very afraid.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Damn Wazza,
> You sneaky devil. Trying to get in PM what the rest of us have been patiently waiting for for weeks on the main thread. I don't think I like you any more.


Blame WAI. She is just too darn slow updating us.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I'm up for that provided he wears the batman suit and I get to use the celery.
> 
> Be very afraid.


And you will wear......? I suggest cheap, easy-tear-off clothes and not many of them. 

BTW, thanks, I may never eat celery again.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> And you will wear......? I suggest cheap, easy-tear-off clothes and not many of them.
> 
> BTW, thanks, I may never eat celery again.


I certainly wouldn't recommend eating the celery after I have used it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I certainly wouldn't recommend eating the celery after I have used it.


Ugh! that is a mind movie I don't believe I should have had to see. Can you two please take this to the farting and belching board. I think I am going to vomit now.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I certainly wouldn't recommend eating the celery after I have used it.


Oh so many things to say to this one I am not even sure where to start!!!! 

But would love to see pics of the batman suit.....hmmmm...that could be hot on so many levels......may have to leave out the celery though...although.......

I am OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One hour until limo pick up - and we are surprising our daughter with a stretch for the hell of it..... 

I'll give you an update when we get back...although I am not seeing costumes or celery in my immediate future...so not sure how exciting my update will be compared to this thread!

Everyone have an awesome week!!! Route 66 here I come!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Really??? Really....we’re back to this?!!
> 
> Honestly you two.....boys!
> 
> ...


I challenge any woman on this thread to a wrestling match...
with or without celery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> I challenge any woman on this thread to a wrestling match...
> with or without celery.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, Old Timer Honey, you misread that. You need to wrestle Wazza. Sorry!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> No, Old Timer Honey, you misread that. You need to wrestle Wazza. Sorry!


No misunderstanding. My challenge stands...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> No, Old Timer Honey, you misread that. You need to wrestle Wazza. Sorry!


I am not just ANY woman!!!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> No misunderstanding. My challenge stands...


:rofl::rofl:



Wazza said:


> I am not just ANY woman!!!!!!


I’m sure you’re not!

Make us proud, Wazza!

:rofl::rofl:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

How are you doing WAI? Good trip?


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

WAI...check in???


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I was JUST thinking of you guys this morning - and I log in and I see Stella checking up on me! You guys are truly the best! 

And Tron - it was FABULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!! A full week, not one fight or argument. I did NO work, stayed off my phone - as did he and the 3 of us just had the most fabulous time ever. He even said it was probably his best vacation ever.

Since we have been back - we finished our refinance (not one argument and we totally tagged team that whole process which was awesome), have spent more time together as a a family and enjoyed 2 nights out....sex is starting to come back finally - he is being much more frisky these days and he sometimes leaves in the morning with a hug for me - big difference from the grunts i used to get. 

It is almost perfect right now. Money issues are gone. Trust issues gone. Forgiveness issues - GONE!

I stay positive - he reciprocates. He gets cranky (that is part of his personality), I just call him out on it and he usually laughs now....

........could not be better........and since he planned this vacation ENTIRELY himself - I am handling the details for our next trip over the holidays to the Bahamas.....2 trips in one year - not sure I can handle that! 



....we both realize how good we have it finally......22 years in and I think we may just be stronger than ever! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

You get the bouncies again. WOW! What an awesome update. There aren't too many happy endings around here but you did it!

On a personal note, I also wanted to thank you for the privilege of helping you. Whatever it was in your first post that drew me in has helped me tremendously and opened up a whole new world of awareness, understanding, empathy, compassion... Whatever I had been doing for self reflection on my own this past 10 years was like sleepwalking compared to what I've experienced on TAM in the past few months. So, the benefits go both ways and at least for me, it started with you.

Good luck and take good care of that marriage!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Although many have helped me through all of this - and you KNOW who you are...you Tron are the one person who stood out....it was like you were here with me and "got it" on every level and your advice and insight into my husband were eerily spot on. He is a really complicated guy....some say deep, which is both a great thing and a bad thing....but you seemed to know him......it is hard to believe that 4 months ago we were on our way to divorce and barely looking at each other....

Most here saw more than I did at the time - I guess when you are in it, it seems all darkness. But the rays of hope that were given kept me sane.....

I love my husband....have since the day I met him. And although 2 months ago I thought he hated me with every ounce of his being, his actions have proved I was wrong on every level. I have learned to understand he is NOT a vocal person - but his hugs, his trips to Starbucks when I ask, his planning and paying for a vacation without any help from me - those are all HIS ways of showing he cares about and loves me.....it is what he can give......he cooks, he cleans, he takes care of the house after working all week, he is the best father in the world - if the one thing he cannot do is be one to always say "I Love You", that is clearly a minute issue since all the traits I love about him SHOW he loves me and his family! SEE I LEARNED!!!!!

I think if more people here really took the time to READ the signals that the partner is sending we would all be better off.....some people just cannot offer as much as others....that is probably the MAIN thing I came out of this with.

Tron, I am so glad you feel like I offered a little something back! I think we learn so much from helping others...which is why I WILL take someone under my wing here when the right story comes along (kind of like mine with you!).....I think it is so helpful to making us better people.......

I wish everyone here all the happiness in the world.....I have never met a more helpful, friendly, fun - and sometimes perverted group!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

WAI, I am smiling so much me face hurts! What a great outcome.

I am also thinking about your words. My H is not a demonstrative, vocal person. You are so right about reading the signals. They are there. We just have to learn to see them.

The one person you didn’t give credit to was you. I must confess, there were times during your journey that, if I could have reached through the computer screen, I would have given you a good shake! But in the end you listened and you followed through and you deserve credit for that. Well done!


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

if i could bear hug you right now lady I would!! :")


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks guys! 



> I must confess, there were times during your journey that, if I could have reached through the computer screen, I would have given you a good shake! But in the end you listened and you followed through and you deserve credit for that. Well done!


This had me laughing! After I reread some of the posts you guys made towards the end it did all sink in - I think when we are in it directly there are so many things that we ignore - my whole issue was never seeing that he was trying in his way - and in retrospect he did tell me things that were bothering him (me working too much, not doing enough with them, lack of sex) - but he did not do it in a blatant way and I was too detached to see the signs he was giving.

It did take a lot of personal insight to see that it was me holding us back....I am stubborn (bet you did not guess that) - so this was a huge step for me....

He left yesterday for work and gave me a hug - when he got home he said it was nice to give a hug in the morning! It is little things like that now that we do....I do not need a hug every morning.....but that was nice....his words were nicer --- 

I would be divorced if it were not for you guys kicking my ass - and that is the truth!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

You must continue "working at it"...never forget that.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> It did take a lot of personal insight to see that it was me holding us back....I am stubborn (bet you did not guess that) - so this was a huge step for me....!


Now you understand that sometimes it only takes one to turn things around. Stubborn? No way, Not you. ;-)



workingatit said:


> He left yesterday for work and gave me a hug - when he got home he said it was nice to give a hug in the morning! It is little things like that now that we do....I do not need a hug every morning.....but that was nice....his words were better


Try to get to a place where that happens or something similar every morning/day. It will snowball and the messages will just start flowing throughout the day, every day.

I just cant help myself. You clearly love and need the words...let him know, reinforce it, coo "I love it when you say that, it gets me hot...gives me butterflies..." whatever you can think of that would please him to hear. Maybe he isn't the most vocal and is just as stubborn as you, but he will get the message. He will want to say the things you need to hear, I promise you! Aw hell, make a bedroom game out of it.

OK. No more advice from me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

old timer said:


> You must continue "working at it"...never forget that.


Truth!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Just checking in to say HI!!!!!!!!! Been really busy with the new job and my charity stuff - oh and of course family time! 

Went out with friends Saturday night - had an AWESOME time and are committed to 2 date nights a month now...one alone and one for friends.....

We flirt all the time....forgot how much I missed that....

Every once in a blue moon he throws a dig...I think to test....I laugh it off and all is good.....

He has been wonderful....complementary, talkative, huggy - things that have not happened in this house in years......he does not JUST talk to our duaghter anymore --- I was almost getting jealous....but now our conversations are constant.....

It has been just over a month since he has been home, and it is constantly getting better......as fearful as I was.......

....happiness is good..... 

Oh and all the weight I lost I gained back.....so life is REALLY good!

Hope you guys are all doing great......I feel like I owe you all so much!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wonderful news, WAI. 

Thank you for the update.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Your update has made my day. I’m so happy for you, WAI!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Still waiting for the pics.......



Just kidding. And for goodness sake don't call my bluff in jest, my wife would kill me!!!

Glad you are well.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Awesome update WAI!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza cannot send pics now...back to feeling like a blimp!  Much happier being plump though.....could not have got here without all of you......I even like me better these days!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I just got the nicest PM today.....I wish I could spend more time on here....I do read on occasion but do not feel experienced enough to give any feedback......I just woke up.....

Its been about 2.5 months since he has been home - and it gets better and better.....we are working as a team like never before...we HONESTLY have not had ONE fight.....we still disagree like we always have but do not get mad at each other anymore and have learned to "pick our battles".....sex life is coming back....and we are even talking about having another baby (although age is not my friend!).......

Honestly sometimes I cannot believe I am a success story......so for those that are at Divorces door - it CAN BE CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to remove the stubborness....you need to want it bad enough...and you need to "work at it"......I got my best friend back........it was worth every ounce of hell we went through to get to this point...... 



...and i have the great support of TAM to thank for all of this...I would really be divorced without this group.....


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Music to my ears!
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I just got the nicest PM today.....I wish I could spend more time on here....I do read on occasion but do not feel experienced enough to give any feedback......I just woke up.....
> 
> Its been about 2.5 months since he has been home - and it gets better and better.....we are working as a team like never before...we HONESTLY have not had ONE fight.....we still disagree like we always have but do not get mad at each other anymore and have learned to "pick our battles".....sex life is coming back....and we are even talking about having another baby (although age is not my friend!).......
> 
> ...


Awesome WAI! Sweet music indeed!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ...and we are even talking about having another baby (although age is not my friend!).......


I have actually been waiting for this update. I knew it was coming. 

I'm concerned a little for you...though not about your age at all. Be wary and be mindful of H. Make sure he is fully on board and excited about it. 

You know pregnancy and new babies can be stressful on a M, so don't let what happened the last time happen again. 

Go girl! And good luck!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Great news. Never stop working at it....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks guys! And Tron we have talked about it extensively....and age aside, if it does happen we will both be thrilled....and I think we are 1000x stronger now to be able to handle it better....if it should happen....if not then I see more weekends away alone happening! 

We have not been this good I do not think EVER. We have always had a very rocky relationship.....this is honestly the most peaceful and cohesive we have ever been.....its wonderful.....

I guess hitting rock bottom was needed!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Such good news, WAI! I’m so happy for you.

As for a little one, I don’t know how old you are, but I was 35 with my first, 37 with my second and 40 with my third. They have all their fingers and toes and none of them have two heads!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL! Thanks Frostflower! We had been talking about another for years - but I think we both knew we had to many issues to go that route.....I am 43 - will be 44.....so it is a huge risk....my dr. is supportive though since I am in great health and am "younger" than my age - and I do have 2 friends the same ages who have given birth in the last year......so I know it can be done....if it is meant to be it will happen.....we are just going the natural route....

Fingers crossed!!! At least we are having fun trying!!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> ....if not then I see more weekends away alone happening!


Just caught this...more? I assume it went well.

That is really great!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL! Only one so far.....but if you do it right it should last a while! ;-)


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

And Tron - if I ever get to Texas I am SOOOOO meeting you and giving you a big hug!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> LOL! Only one so far.....but if you do it right it should last a while! ;-)


Ooooooh.  Do kiss and tell. JK. 

And you let me know when you guys come down here and we will make sure to give you a warm Texas welcome. Everything's bigger in Texas...even hugs.


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## catch22gofigure (Apr 26, 2013)

Tron said:


> Ooooooh.  Do kiss and tell. JK.
> 
> And you let me know when you guys come down here and we will make sure to give you a warm Texas welcome. Everything's bigger in Texas...even hugs.


Everything Tron ?? ...lol JK


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Yep, Tron you can still crack me up!!!!! And I like big hugs and I cannot lie...... ;-)


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

So it has been 4 months since he has been home! I heard my first "I Love You" about 2 weeks ago! I have not heard an I Love You out of this mans lips in YEARS!!!!!!!!!!  He is away right nwo for work, gone for 2 weeks.....yesterday was my birthday and he clearly felt horrible about missing it...sent me flowers which he has not done in years either........for the first time in a LONG time - I MISS HIM! He travels a bit and usually I cannot wait for him to go away.....but I really miss him! We Skype every night and life right now is PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!

I am starting to have more time so I can finally contribute a little to others now......I think more positive stories need to be shared....I remember looking for them when this whole mess started and I never saw many and it gave me no hope.....

Hope everyone here is doing great!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I actually suggested another poster read your story the other day. You are doing great!!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

So happy for you, WAI

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Cool!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Great update.

Now keep working at it! Both of you.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> I actually suggested another poster read your story the other day. You are doing great!!


I am hoping I can inspire others. It is hard to understand just how bad this marriage was....but it was BAD -- I am pretty proud of us for beating the odds to get this far. We celebrate 12 years married in September and plan on getting away for the night at least...that is one thing we still need to work on - more alone time....the kid is staying up later than us these days so it is getting hard!

I want to help when I can.....and hope others can just learn to look inside themselves...if I had done that years ago it would have never got as bad as it did! I can never thank everyone here enough!!!!!! I need REAL LIFE friends like you guys! :smthumbup:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> I need REAL LIFE friends like you guys! :smthumbup:


I have always been happiest when we as a couple made efforts to socialize and get together with our friends. 

When the kids came that became more difficult. We still don't do it enough. 

It seems to me that too much together time can sometimes put unnecessary pressure on the M too. I dont know...maybe that's just me.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Oh we try to do things with friends. We have one couple that we try to do dinner with every other month - just so hard to find time with everyone - life is so busy! And our daughter is an age that is hard because most of our friends either have much older kids or have babies.....amazing how many people are having babies in their 40's! 

I totally agree about too much time being an issue too - but right now we do not have that problem!  That is one of those things that brought us apart -- not enough time....we are getting there though! 

Hope all is well with you!!!!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Great to hear from you, WAI. I’m so glad things are continuing to go well for you!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

workingatit said:


> .....amazing how many people are having babies in their 40's!


Hmmmm.

Not sure exactly what to make of this. You just having fun trying or...


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

I am so happy to read this.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Hmmmm.
> 
> Not sure exactly what to make of this. You just having fun trying or...


LOL! We are talking about....I have a doctor appointment next week to see if there is any hope (I just turned 44 so I know my chances are slim) - we are regretting all the wasted years...

But yeah - we are having fun trying!!!!!!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

I did a post in the reconciliation forum -- but wanted to post here as well in the hopes everyone here would see it!

I cannot believe it has been over a year since I last posted - CRAZY! 

I just wanted to take a minute to thank EVERY PERSON IN THIS THREAD for their time and support and tough love when I needed it most. Without you all I would not be where I am!

The first few months back together were hard as hell I am not going to lie. He was waiting for me to fall back to my old ways - and it took months for him to realize I had really forgiven and wanted to move in a positive direction. 

In November 2013 I was rushed in for a Hysterectomy (which sucked because we had discussed a baby!) -- but I had cysts that were bursting...so out everything came. He stood by my side and took the best care of me he ever has.

We have been getting along better and our relationship is stronger than it has EVER been.

We say I love you again --- he tells me how much he appreciates me and how much I do....and we truly enjoy each other again! I got my best friend back.

We still argue....we still annoy each other --- but we manage it better and there is no longer that gray cloud that always elevated things for me. Looking forward to the next 22 years with this big lug! And I am so proud of us for not quitting when others may have - and I love that we are such a good example for our daughter! 

So thank you ---- I am not sure I would be where I am without some of the fantastic advice I got here. 

I never forgot any of you..........


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## Stillkindofhopefull (Oct 25, 2014)

Stories like yours are the kinds of stories a lot of us here hope for. I wouldn't have read it if you hadn't updated is, so thank you!


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

That is why I wanted to post! I remember always looking for SUCCESS stories and saw so few it was disheartening. I thought my marriage was doomed for failure.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Great update!

Very sorry to hear about your medical issues. Silver lining is that the H stepped up bigtime for you. I guess he loves you a little after all. 

And that text...ooooh yeah! I'll bet you ate that **** up.  

WAI: "THANK YOU HUBBY! MAY I HAVE ANOTHER?"

20 years together huh? Our 20 year wedding anniversary is in 2 weeks and this year has been a real struggle for us. 

I told Ms. Tron this morning that I am having trouble with what to get her. I've been trying to think of a gift for months now, and to be honest, I can't think of anything that would be appropriate. She said "don't get me anything, I am just thankful we are still together." She may just be ****-testing me; but, funny thing is, that is exactly what I would have said if she had asked me.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

TRON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love you - you know that? I was just going back through some of the PM's you sent and you put me in my place -- deservedly of course!  You and WAZZA -- man you guys are amazing. 

LOL! Glad to hear you guys are doing well! After all these years we do not really do gifts anymore so to speak. Just being together and having adventures are more valuable than any gift. (Hint -- girls love spas -- I am not even a girl girly but a massage or facial (no sick jokes you) -- are always a great gift for this girl!)

But a text telling her how much you appreciate her may be the best gift ever! 

He came home last night and actually SAID it to me -- I had tears....he told me I am too emotional....we laughed and moved on! Gotta love him! I think I said early on we are a very sarcastic family...that has not changed == nor do I want it to!

Gifts mean nothing.......time means everything......how about a surprise overnight trip if you can swing it? That is one thing I would LOVE!

Again, I can never thank you enough --- you were instrumental in me getting me **it together to make this work....and be better than ever! 

If you are ever in the NYC area you better hit me up!


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

workingatit said:


> That is why I wanted to post! I remember always looking for SUCCESS stories and saw so few it was disheartening. I thought my marriage was doomed for failure.


I hear that. It's a struggle to find success stories here, especially regarding R. I've briefly looked through yours and realise I need to read it all! Hopefully i'll find inspiration for us there. 

Congrats.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

If I can answer any questions please let me know. I am no expert of course..but will do what I can to help like so many helped me!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Good for you. Your update made me happy.


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

workingatit said:


> If I can answer any questions please let me know. I am no expert of course..but will do what I can to help like so many helped me!


Thank you for the offer. If you get the chance, take a look at my OP (same section as this thread). It's kinda the other side of the coin. D*ck Husband (me. no affair though) who saw the light.

I'll go through yours later tonight. Just off out to the gym!


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

Finally got through the whole thread. Awesome R, with all the same concerns, fears, hopes and drama that I'm (we're) going through. Great advice from good people the whole way through. Even the negative nancys stayed away. 


Really happy that things have worked out for you.





I only have one disappointment. 




















The much promised wet T-Shirt pictures never appeared... 







:rofl:


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

WorkingAtIt, glad you made it. 

DayOne, there are success stories here. Try the Reconciliation thread and start looking at the people who post there. Lots of people who reconcile need to leave TAM at some stage to put the past behind them.


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## ejames (Jan 18, 2015)

Workingatit -- I've only read through a few pages on this thread before skipping to the end. I'm happy to hear that you and your husband worked things out. 


_Sorry, this ended up being way longer than I had planned. I just started typing and couldn't stop..._


I think that my husband and I are in a similar place that you are yours were in.... 
In December he left. We went to a marriage counselor because he wanted to "make us better." To him, that meant leaving. He told me in the appointment that he was leaving. I cried and cried and begged him to stay. I begged for a chance to make things better. I begged for him to go to counseling with me and work on us. He said no....

At the time it felt like it was out of nowhere but looking back, I knew that we were having problems. I remember sitting in the car the weekend before blasting a very sad song that I love (Butch Walker - Vessels Lyrics | MetroLyrics), screaming the words and crying my eyes out. My husband is in school (at 30, a late student) and he had a stressful semester. He was starting to have depression issues. He was drinking a lot and I was dealing with my own stuff -- I did not grow up with my father. He left when I was 5 and never looked back. 27 years later, he's back and trying to be a father again... and it's hard as hell to figure out how to act. Often my father will say or do things and I had no idea how to react to it. I was scared to tell him what I was thinking or feeling because I was scared that he would leave again. I would hold anger in and eventually, when it all boiled over, it was usually came out at my husband. 

All of those things were bad and probably contributed to the main problem.... we stopped talking to each other. We would say "have a good day" and I would ask what he wanted for dinner, stuff like that, but for months we didn't communicate at all. Honestly, I cannot remember the last time we had a real talk before he left.

So, he left. He's been gone 37 days. For the first few weeks we were talking (really communicating with each other), hanging out, having fun, smiling, laughing, being intimate.... I thought that we were headed in the right direction to get back together but he pulled the break. He told me that he was not ready for it. He told me that we were moving too fast. He told me that he had all kinds of old feelings and all kinds of new feelings and all kinds of feelings coming from the intimacy and he couldn't sort them out while we were spending time together.

I asked him if we could date again. I asked him if we could try to start over, put all of the baggage away, stop using the past against each other, and get back to the happy relationship that we used to have.... not that long ago.... He agreed but told me that we had to get a separation agreement drafted and signed and we had to go a month with little to no contact. We have no kids, just an adorable fur baby, so no reason really for him to stop by, unless he needs something he didn't take with him. 

We've seen each other twice (once to see a lawyer and once to talk about our individual counseling) and texted once since the month started. I've got 15 more days before our "first" date. 

We've been together 9 years, 2 days after he left was our actually our "dating" anniversary. We've been married 4.5 years. Every day that I'm not allowed to talk to him is such a struggle.

I'm trying to stay strong but this is insanely hard. He said the same "I don't love you" and " we have nothing in common" things that your husband said. 

We've agreed to date for 6 weeks but he's made it very clear that it is not his preference. He would much rather just go through with the divorce and get on with his life. He's told me that the only reason that he's agreed to date me is because he cares about me so much. 

I'm just so confused at how we got here. We are 2 people who loved each other so ridiculously much. He was so happy on our wedding day, he was almost crying. Neither of us believe in divorce. I'm lost....


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