# Coping with Sexual Dysfunction



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

My h has erectile dysfunction, specifically performance anxiety. He's been dealing with this for close to 4 years, however now he's also experiencing low sexual desire. Whether the loss in desire is due to a physiological or psychological reason is still undecided; he's in the process of testing possible physiological causes. (I have a thread discussing this in the Men's Clubhouse. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/335233-testosterone-question.html). In the meantime, we are trying to make the best of a bad situation but I'm having a difficult time coping with the indirect effects of his E.D. The problem is that the quality of the sex has taken a nose dive. 

If sex between two people is like ballroom dancing, then we used to be the couple that was perfectly in sync and made it effortless. Sex used to be fun. Now...not so much. Where it used to be carefree and natural, it is now mechanical. Again, in dancing terms he's the one whispering "one, two, three, left, one, two, three, right", so on and so forth. I understand he needs me to be supportive, which of course I am and will continue to do so, but he also wants me to enjoy it and right now sex is not enjoyable. Add to that I'm having a difficult time coping as either the 'giver' and the 'taker' - his desire for sex is at a low so he doesn't want to accept what I have to 'give', and my self-esteem won't allow me to 'take' knowing the desire is not there for him.

So I'm asking for people to post their personal experiences _successfully_ dealing with a partner suffering from a sexual dysfunction (E.D., vaginismus, anorgamsia, performance anxiety, hormonal imbalances, mental anxiety, low testosterone, physical injuries, etc...). I don't want this to turn into an LD/HD bashing thread. 

I'm interested in hearing from both sides of the fence - the person suffering from the problem and the partner coping with it. Specifically, I want to hear how you managed it.


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## sscygni (Apr 13, 2016)

I went through and am still coming out of a bout of intermittent ED/ performance anxiety. Won't threadjack with the reasons, but bottom line is that for me Cialis was a life-saver. One little pill gave me 48 hours of rock hard erection on demand. I tried to use them sparingly; only when I had some reason to believe that I might not be able to perform properly without. Maybe 2-4 pills / month or so.

You need to be careful if it is performance anxiety that you don't become reliant (which could make your performance worse when you are not taking the pills), but its nice to know that you have a backup plan when you need one.

Of course the longer term solution is to better understand the psychological reasons why your husband is concerned about performance, but IMO that is easier to do once he does not need to actually worry anymore.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I'll admit I sometimes have combined anorgamsia and performance anxiety because my wife frowns on me masturbating. I will often try to wait for her to be receptive to me, get frustrated, and take matters into my own hands in efforts to let go and give her some space. Inevitable murphy's law gets the best of me and my wife will be immediately receptive after I masturbate. If I tell her I just did that, she gets upset and rejects me. If I don't tell her, she can tell I am having trouble climaxing and this is emotionally painful for her. Occasionally we get stuck in this vicious cycle for too long as any attempts to schedule sex are often met by her with anxiety, she cancels, I get frustrated, then the next morning it is game on but I already took care of things on my own. 

While that situation is very different from you and your husband, it has been extremely difficult for me to man up and be honest with my wife when it is not going to happen for me. When this happens and she is aroused it is extremely emotionally satisfying for me to focus on her and hold her while she enjoys herself. This admittedly has been a difficult thing for her to do as well, because in the past she rather wait until we are in sync again only to find the moment gone for the next few days and me frustrated. 

I think you have to work with your husband to give him the confidence to not feel ashamed about his low desire and/or ED. Odds are he knows you would do anything to please him when the moment _arises_ (pun intended). So for that reason you are NOT being selfish if he offers to do something to please you. Odds are he will simply enjoy pleasing you, AND you can use this to rebuild his confidence as a lover by telling him how much you enjoyed what ever it is he does for you. 

One thing you may wish to ask your husband is how often he is OK with doing something that pleases just you. It might be everyday or he may ask you to limit that to once only every so many days. You should also ask him how often he would like you to try to please him. It is important to understand these frequencies. Sometimes things might line up and sex will be great, but most of the time you may actually end up taking turns. 

Then once you reach a point of feeling comfortable with that, you two may find yourselves having some of the best sex ever. One-at-a-time can turn into teasing sessions to help build each other up for when things can happen together here and there.

Hope that helps,
Badsanta


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Well my marriage has gone through just about every sexual problem a couple can experience so I'll start with ED. 

What I learned that worked: (for us, YMMV)
1. I had to come to sex already aroused and amped up.
2. I had to be completely at ease with plopping my girls in his face and telling him to "do me good."
3. Ditto on lady parts.
4. I had to become comfortable with masturbating in front of him.
5. We talked outside of the bedroom and I explained his erection was the only way I knew he felt me desirous, since he was unable to connect feeling words with compliments.
6. When we took sex out of the bedroom his erection was usually cooperative.
7. If he lost his erection during PIV we acknowledged it and moved on to toys. Sometimes he got it back and PIV resumed, sometimes he didn't. When he didn't we simply continued giving me orgasms (because I'm generous about that ) and then I would give hand/blow job until he ejaculated. He can ejaculate even with a very minimal erection but not completely flaccid.
8. We learned that his erection became strong by watching me orgasm (again I'm generous that way...) and also when I began to groom his pubes in the shower together. His erection was most precarious at the start of PIV. If he could stay erect enough to enter, he would gain more erection and keep it till the end. 
9. We never attempted PIV without already slathering on coconut oil on both of us. Difficulty enter me almost universally caused a loss of erection. We learned and still practice that PIV never gets attempted unless he is already strongly erected and coconut oil in place. Make success most likely before any attempt takes place. A loss of erection would prompts more losses, a success would prompt more success.
10. He always experienced a strong erection with Viagara and Cialis but he didn't like taking them because they affected his sinuses pretty badly after sex. Always after sex never before. Don't know why. I left it up to him and never asked if he had taken them or not but if he had several erection losses in a row I would ask him to start taking them again until we built up some successful attempts.
11. I didn't directly approach him for sex because I never knew if he had taken Viagara, had some to take, or even wanted sex and like you I cold not risk more rejection. This kind of kept our progress at a stand still. But then I started setting him when I really wanted sex, this made him felt desired (I'm a slow learner) and made it easier for him to take the risk of possible erection loss. The success this built for us sexually helped me to become even more direct about sex and directly seduce him. Directly seducing him was 50/50 success but seemed like the times I woke him from sleep to have my wicked way with him worked best.

The one thing and probably the hardest to do is actually stating what we each needed from the other sexually. It's not easy to start, not easy to ask but only through understanding what worked for him and what worked for me did out sex life work for us both. 

Lila I hope this helps. I feel like I've made every mistake on the planet when it comes to sex and I want to help other women enjoy a kick ass sex life too.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Add to that I'm having a difficult time coping as either the 'giver' and the 'taker' - his desire for sex is at a low so he doesn't want to accept what I have to 'give', *and my self-esteem won't allow me to 'take' knowing the desire is not there for him.*


The bolded is the only situation which you can 100% fix entirely by yourself, so that a good place to start.

Sexual desire is unconscious, one doesn't have any control over this.

The desire to sexually satisfy their partner is a conscious desire to please your partner because pleasing their partner makes the giver happy. 

I value conscious acts more that unconscious acts. They are a truer measure of love.

Receiving love can make one vulnerable. Try to let down your walls enough to accept and appreciate your husband's love.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I gave my husband some space to start before me. I would go and shower whilst he self explored. That was probably the single most effective thing after experimenting with medications. Once he knew his man-friend was playing ball he was confident enough to be exciting in bed. If he was unsure as to what would happen things would be a little awkward. Once he got his confidence back then he had very little problem. 

This was almost 2 years ago - now he has no problems whatsoever as we have really worked on pleasing each other without expected erection/climax. One sided sexual intimacy can be very healing as it takes pressure off one or both partners. Unconditionally pleasing the person you love is as rewarding as the person you love unconditionally pleasing you. So no expectations, lots of fun (we would sometimes give his penis a comedy voice when it wasn't co-operating), and keeping things natural and unforced. 

My biggest regret is telling my husband that it effected my self esteem and feelings of desirability. That just put more pressure on him and made him feel bad. I now know my self esteem is my own responsibility.

HTH


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I thought I was just going to comment on the ED but your second paragraph makes me realize I've been on both sides of the fence.

We too were previously very much in sync and it was effortless. So the ED was very painful for both of us. We'd try to have sex using our usual script (foreplay, intercourse and 2 orgasms). When it did't work it was like someone threw ice water on us while we were super aroused. After a year of trying to work around it we were on a path to divorce. I went the pharmaceutical route, normalcy was basically restored. I did get headaches initially but not so much after a while.

Fast forward 5 years. We'd try to have sex using our usual script but she was no longer able to orgasm from PiV. She change the script to foreplay, an O for her (oral or manual) and one for me, usually PiV. I became totally orgasm fixated, talk about becoming mechanical and unnatural. So we got out of sync and it required much effort, not only in the bed but even just getting there.

A bit more time goes by she was no longer able to reliably orgasm from other ways, she doesn't even want to try to every time. That was frustrating ice water for me which of course got her frustrated. We change the script again to foreplay, he comes first usually from PiV (because she thought it was required?), she comes if she wants to. That led to similar giver/taker issues. 

Now on days when we are out of sync she gives me what she can (that may just be her eye candy for me to DIY or it maybe PiV) so I don't feel like I'm taking. I've come to accept that she may not be always ready to receive. I'm always ready to give., there's been a lot more 68 on her recently. Like @peacem said expectations, we've deemphasized orgasms, worried less about the dîck, but focused more on intimacy and quality naked time.

What is your script like? Can you make changes? Could you both happy with them?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

if a penis is an instrument of sex, then the hands can be the stradivarius of love making.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I'll admit I sometimes have combined anorgamsia and performance anxiety because my wife frowns on me masturbating. I will often try to wait for her to be receptive to me, get frustrated, and take matters into my own hands in efforts to let go and give her some space. Inevitable murphy's law gets the best of me and my wife will be immediately receptive after I masturbate. *If I tell her I just did that, she gets upset and rejects me. If I don't tell her, she can tell I am having trouble climaxing and this is emotionally painful for her. *Occasionally we get stuck in this vicious cycle for too long as any attempts to schedule sex are often met by her with anxiety, she cancels, I get frustrated, then the next morning it is game on but I already took care of things on my own.
> 
> While that situation is very different from you and your husband, it has been extremely difficult for me to man up and be honest with my wife when it is not going to happen for me. When this happens and she is aroused it is extremely emotionally satisfying for me to focus on her and hold her while she enjoys herself. *This admittedly has been a difficult thing for her to do as well, because in the past she rather wait until we are in sync again only to find the moment gone for the next few days and me frustrated. *
> 
> ...


How did you and your wife get over the difficulty of the two bolded statements above? I'm not sure about my husband, but that's where I'm stuck. I can't get over the difficulty.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

His low desire is probably because he is embarrassed and feels defeated, poor guy. Somethings these things can spiral out of control. He has checked all the medical possibles?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Well my marriage has gone through just about every sexual problem a couple can experience so I'll start with ED.
> 
> What I learned that worked: (for us, YMMV)
> 1. I had to come to sex already aroused and amped up.
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experiences AP. Everything you wrote makes complete sense but when I re-read it envisioning what it would look like with me and H, I couldn't make it past #1. It's the part that makes me most sad, and one of the reasons that I think I'm sinking into depression. I'm losing my sexual desire. I'm not sure if it's solely for H, as an indirect effect from the dysfunction (i.e. I subconsciously don't want to get excited over something that isn't going to pan out), or if it's just me losing my desire for sex in general.

Did you ever feel like this?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> The bolded is the only situation which you can 100% fix entirely by yourself, so that a good place to start.
> 
> Sexual desire is unconscious, one doesn't have any control over this.
> 
> ...


How do you determine whether or not there is a desire to sexually satisfy? IOW, where do you draw the line between duty and desire? That's what I'm struggling with.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Lila said:


> How do you determine whether or not there is a desire to sexually satisfy? IOW, where do you draw the line between duty and desire? That's what I'm struggling with.


I keep getting white page for this tread. I wrote a long reply and puff, it gone.

Hi Lila. Do you still find him attractive?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> How do you determine whether or not there is a desire to sexually satisfy? IOW, where do you draw the line between duty and desire? That's what I'm struggling with.


If he wants to, he desires to. Believe him.

I'm in the middle of a brief period where I can't have sex. My wife and I were planning on a "her only" session Saturday night. It turned out that she had a cold and didn't feel up to it. I was genuinely very disappointed (although I tried not to show it too much). We've rescheduled for tonight and I really hope she feels good enough.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

peacem said:


> I gave my husband some space to start before me. I would go and shower whilst he self explored. That was probably the single most effective thing after experimenting with medications. Once he knew his man-friend was playing ball he was confident enough to be exciting in bed. If he was unsure as to what would happen things would be a little awkward. Once he got his confidence back then he had very little problem.
> 
> This was almost 2 years ago - now he has no problems whatsoever as we have really worked on pleasing each other without expected erection/climax. One sided sexual intimacy can be very healing as it takes pressure off one or both partners. Unconditionally pleasing the person you love is as rewarding as the person you love unconditionally pleasing you. So no expectations, lots of fun (we would sometimes give his penis a comedy voice when it wasn't co-operating), and keeping things natural and unforced.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that my self esteem is my own responsibility, however it makes me so mad sometimes that I can't use that same logic with H. This subject is taboo and affects _his_ self esteem which makes the problem worse.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Lila said:


> I agree with you that my self esteem is my own responsibility, however it makes me so mad sometimes that I can't use that same logic with H. This subject is taboo and affects _his_ self esteem which makes the problem worse.


I know exactly what you mean. It's a tough one. I think by allowing each other to not be ultimately responsible for each others arousal, erection, climax etc. helps on this one. Just playing and being affectionate is enough. We stopped judging ourselves. 

Another mistake I made, which was with good intentions was to try and be overtly sexual. In hindsight this was very naive and misguided. I thought all those sexy outfits and being experimental would help with his arousal but it actually did the opposite. Not because he didn't like the idea but because it made him feel pressured into performing so not to let me down (after I had made the effort). Not only did he have to concentrate on getting an erection he also had to fathom new stuff. 

I took a lot of advice from badsanta about communicating to my husband that I didn't want him to have an erection and that I wanted him just to concentrate on me. Over time that really increased his confidence and he started to believe that I didn't care. People here often talk about women who have responsive desire but I learned that my husband has that in abundance. He may not be in the mood or too tired, but after we concentrate solely on my pleasure he often really gets into it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Lila said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences AP. Everything you wrote makes complete sense but when I re-read it envisioning what it would look like with me and H, I couldn't make it past #1. It's the part that makes me most sad, and one of the reasons that I think I'm sinking into depression. I'm losing my sexual desire. I'm not sure if it's solely for H, as an indirect effect from the dysfunction (i.e. I subconsciously don't want to get excited over something that isn't going to pan out), or if it's just me losing my desire for sex in general.
> 
> Did you ever feel like this?


Yes but probably for different reasons.

One of the byproducts of healing was that I discovered sex for sex's sake was okay. Okay for me to feel that way and okay for him to feel that way. To get really existential, all meaning is pure subjection. What does it really mean if I want sex, sex with him, orgasms? How have I arrived at that meaning? How do other meanings fit, or not, and why?

I think if you are feeling a lack of desire for sex then you rely on feeling desired in order to feel desire. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Everyone wants and needs to feel desired. But I think the draw back of needing to feel desired in order to feel sexual desire is that the cues you take to indicate you're being desired aren't accurate and they depend on your own self esteem to believe you're desirable. His erection means only that his plumbing is working.

It's easy for me to feel this now that I'm on the other side but I honestly do not think for one second that an erection has anything at all to do with the veracity of desire. 

I think also as women, who almost universally have a huge learning curve in order to orgasm, we tend to apply those same variables toward men and their erections and it's not usually accurate. 

Getting back to practicals, for you to come to sex already aroused means that you have to believe in your desirability. If that is true, what do you need from him to feel desirable and what do you need to from within in order to feel desirable? 

Do you need to dress sexy? I do, I have been wearing sexy night clothing for years as a rule rather than as special occasion. I dress sexy I feel sexy, this helps me independently come to sex already aroused. I turn myself on! 

I also need to be clean. If I'm clean I feel more confident and helps me feel sexy.

Do you generally like what you see in the mirror? I generally do even though I'm 53 with 50 years of sun damage and need to lose weight...again! As a rule, I do for myself everything I can to help the process along.

Do you spend much time fantasizing? I probably spend too much time on this but this is an avenue to help you come to sex aroused.

Right now you guys are at a very low point because coping with sexual difficulties is fraught with personal land mines just ready to blow up. But getting through this takes the time to find each land mine and disarm it. You are smart and capable and loving and that's all you need to get through this.

ETA: @peacem was absolutely right about being playful without pressure! The things I listed work for me but if wearing lingerie isn't for you and feels disengenuous it will probably put pressure on your H.

Managing pressure seems to be the key.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> I agree with you that my self esteem is my own responsibility, however it makes me so mad sometimes that I can't use that same logic with H. This subject is taboo and affects _his_ self esteem which makes the problem worse.


Sadly the problem is our "equipment' is tied to our psyche. Woman can fake it to a certain extent. We can't. This is just one of those things where men and woman are fundamentally different. Performance anxiety is really hard though. 

Imagine if one time you felt fat, or gross you were physically not capable of having sex. Like you really wanted to but your body didn't respond, like you had vaginismus for example. Then the next time you tried to do it you were nervous about it and boom vaginismus again. 

Now obviously sex stops being fun and starts to be a challenge. You don't want to let your husband down but you feel like you have no control over your own body. You have never had this problem before, you have no idea why this is happening. You want with all your heart to be their for you husband but you are letting her down and you have no control of it. I suspect this is what your husband is going through. This is one of those sickness and health issues. 

Maybe have him help you get off. At least he can feel like he contributes to you.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *If I tell her I just did that, she gets upset and rejects me. If I don't tell her, she can tell I am having trouble climaxing and this is emotionally painful for her.
> 
> This admittedly has been a difficult thing for her to do as well, because in the past she rather wait until we are in sync again only to find the moment gone for the next few days and me frustrated. *





Lila said:


> How did you and your wife get over the difficulty of the two bolded statements above? I'm not sure about my husband, but that's where I'm stuck. I can't get over the difficulty.


A very long time ago I tried to be open to her regarding my self exploration habits. She got very upset and insisted she just rather not know. Then half a year ago struggling to deal with rejection I tried to get her to shop with me for something that I could enjoy on my own that perhaps she would not find offensive (book, toy, whatever...), and she pretty much exploded because she could still not deal with me masturbating. I remember it being my birthday and she complained she did not know what to get me, yet I had an online shopping cart of things reserved that she refused to even look at! 

GRADUALLY she has started inquiring more about my most recent times I have masturbated as we spend intimate time together in the evening. She does not want details other than to preferably hear that, "I have been in the mood and patiently waiting for you now for a few days." When I do have to admit to it being very recently, I always downplay the details and make it sound as though I am the worlds worst at masturbating as it is horrible and I desperately need her help (she seems to respond well to this!)!

She has admitted that her primary problem is when I have trouble climaxing. I'm somewhat of a fan of tease and denial, and she understands that I may enjoy sex but not be able to orgasm sometimes. She says she is OK with that. Her main problem is when she sees me struggling and forcing myself. She says that seeing that makes her extremely emotionally sensitive, even if I pull out to finish. So I now understand that it is way better for her if I make it a point to stay emotionally connected and if it happens it happens and if not to just let go and not try and force one. In the meantime she knows how to playfully tease me about not allowing me to have one, which can actually be fun, which most often makes me easily explode!

So if I am going to have trouble climaxing but I can get aroused, my wife wants me to focus on being emotionally connected with her, and I enjoy that! I also downplay my recent solo activities by making fun of how bad I am at it and complimenting her to no end!!!

...so what has helped her enjoy being selfish when I am not really in the mood? Probably the biggest thing here is that I have stopped getting upset or frustrated when our desire for each other is out of sync. I used to get frustrated and so did she, but we have BOTH made a huge effort to let go of this frustration and instead try to be much more open to each other enjoying the moment when one of our desire's gets the best of us. 

So @Lila if things are not going to happen for your husband, encourage him NOT to get frustrated and try to force himself for you, at the same time you have to focus on staying relaxed and help him instead focus on an emotional connection with you. If anything shift the focus onto you! Tell your husband that you know he wants you to have a good time, but *you* are now the one with performance anxiety and you are having trouble enjoying yourself! Ask him to help YOU relax and try to enjoy the moment. 

Seems like I rambled. Let me know if that helped?

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> I took a lot of advice from badsanta about communicating to my husband that I didn't want him to have an erection and that I wanted him just to concentrate on me. Over time that really increased his confidence and he started to believe that I didn't care. People here often talk about women who have responsive desire but I learned that my husband has that in abundance. * He may not be in the mood or too tired, but after we concentrate solely on my pleasure he often really gets into it.*


My wife does not like masturbating, so she relies on me when she is in the mood. I'm always eager to please and there have been moments that I was NOT in the mood for myself, but once I started focusing on her and feeling her have orgasm after orgasm I easily get excited enough to dive right into the middle of the action! 

*
OMG!!!! EVERYONE STOP....

we are giving @Lila performance anxiety! *

Like @Anon Pink says, you have to go into the moment all revved up and ready to explode. Don't worry if it is going to pan out or not. Set yourself a goal to enjoy yourself with your husband, pull the pin, and throw yourself at him as if you are a live hand grenade!!!!!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

My husband has medication and medical issue induced ED. He cannot take Viagra or Cialis as they are contraindicated.

What I have learned is that I can actually have some pretty ferociously amazing skills.

If he gets soft mid-sex, we switch up position, activity, pressure, speed, whatever it takes. I've developed an array of tricks that can coax back his erection if need be.

If he has trouble getting hard --very common --oral is a good go to.

ED has some advantages. When we do have sex, he lasts foooreverrrr, and this opens the door for some seriously intense orgasms for me. 

That said, to make that happen, I totally had to become a taker. The less interested in sex my husband is, the less interested in me or my pleasure he is. Sometimes, I'm sure he views it as some terrible chore. But I just ignore that and use whatever fantasy or additional stimulation I need to make things happen for myself.

I'll admit that I still do not find this easy to deal with, and have found my own sexual interest in my husband waning. Not sure what to do about that...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> I thought I was just going to comment on the ED but your second paragraph makes me realize I've been on both sides of the fence.
> 
> We too were previously very much in sync and it was effortless. So the ED was very painful for both of us. We'd try to have sex using our usual script (foreplay, intercourse and 2 orgasms). W*hen it did't work it was like someone threw ice water on us while we were super aroused*. After a year of trying to work around it we were on a path to divorce. I went the pharmaceutical route, normalcy was basically restored. *I did get headaches* initially but not so much after a while.
> 
> ...


The bolded statements pair up almost exactly with the experiences I've had with my H. Even the reference to the 'cold water' is spot on. The only difference being that I can orgasm relatively easily (non-PIV) but my desire for sex is much less than it used to be. I'm not actively seeking it like I used to. 



CharlieParker said:


> Now on days when we are out of sync she gives me what she can (that may just be her eye candy for me to DIY or it maybe PiV) so I don't feel like I'm taking. I've come to accept that she may not be always ready to receive. I'm always ready to give., there's been a lot more 68 on her recently. Like @peacem said expectations, we've deemphasized orgasms, worried less about the dîck, but focused more on intimacy and quality naked time.


 @anonpink hit upon the reason why I think I have such a difficult time with the one-sided scenarios. I've always measured my self-worth to my husband based on my sensuality. For the entirety of our relationship, I've made it my mission to be his sexual diva. Add to that the fact that he's never 'given' me an orgasm (I've always been responsible for my own), and you have the situation I'm struggling with right now. 

Just to clarify, the orgasm thing is not due to his lack of trying. My physiology is such that I'm extremely sensitive down there. It's always been this way. If I want to orgasm, then I have to make it happen myself. 




CharlieParker said:


> What is your script like? Can you make changes? Could you both happy with them?


Our script now is very different from what it was a few years ago. In addition, more and more activities are slowly being removed from our repetoire (at my h's request). For example, he doesn't want oral sex. He says it causes the highest levels of anxiety. We used to play sex games. We no longer do that because again, it brings attention to his lack of an erection when he suffers anxiety.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> His low desire is probably because he is embarrassed and feels defeated, poor guy. Somethings these things can spiral out of control. *He has checked all the medical possibles*?


He's doing that now. Testosterone came back about 150 units lower than 2 years ago but still within normal limits. He sees an ED specialist tomorrow.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

brooklynAnn said:


> I keep getting white page for this tread. I wrote a long reply and puff, it gone.
> 
> Hi Lila. Do you still find him attractive?


I do find him physically attractive, however some of his behavior is the opposite of attractive.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> *If he wants to, he desires to*. Believe him.
> 
> I'm in the middle of a brief period where I can't have sex. My wife and I were planning on a "her only" session Saturday night. It turned out that she had a cold and didn't feel up to it. I was genuinely very disappointed (although I tried not to show it too much). We've rescheduled for tonight and I really hope she feels good enough.


That might be our problem. He'll do it if I ask him to but he doesn't desire to do it on his own. Does that make any sense?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

peacem said:


> I know exactly what you mean. It's a tough one. I think by allowing each other to not be ultimately responsible for each others arousal, erection, climax etc. helps on this one. Just playing and being affectionate is enough. We stopped judging ourselves.
> 
> Another mistake I made, which was with good intentions was to try and be overtly sexual. In hindsight this was very naive and misguided. I thought all those sexy outfits and being experimental would help with his arousal but it actually did the opposite. Not because he didn't like the idea but because it made him feel pressured into performing so not to let me down (after I had made the effort). Not only did he have to concentrate on getting an erection he also had to fathom new stuff.
> 
> I took a lot of advice from badsanta about communicating to my husband that I didn't want him to have an erection and that I wanted him just to concentrate on me. Over time that really increased his confidence and he started to believe that I didn't care. *People here often talk about women who have responsive desire but I learned that my husband has that in abundance. He may not be in the mood or too tired, but after we concentrate solely on my pleasure he often really gets into it.*


Question - If he has responsive desire and you have responsive desire......how do get going?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> Add to that the fact that he's never 'given' me an orgasm (I've always been responsible for my own), and you have the situation I'm struggling with right now.
> 
> Just to clarify, the orgasm thing is not due to his lack of trying. My physiology is such that I'm extremely sensitive down there. It's always been this way. If I want to orgasm, then I have to make it happen myself.


Does he know he has never given you and orgasm? This could also feel defeating to him. You make is sound like you didn't want him to give you one, or didn't care to teach him how.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Lila said:


> The bolded statements pair up almost exactly with the experiences I've had with my H. Even the reference to the 'cold water' is spot on. The only difference being that I can orgasm relatively easily (non-PIV) but my desire for sex is much less than it used to be. I'm not actively seeking it like I used to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your husband has never wanted to give you an orgasm? I think that some of the issues here stem from that, to be honest. Why wouldn't a spouse be interested in giving his partner an orgasm? I don't know much at all about ED, but regardless if he suffers from it or not, I'd think that giving one's spouse an orgasm should still be of importance, or relevance. Sounds like sex has largely been about him, and now he's removing things from the menu, and it's still...all about him. These issues need addressing, as the ED seems like an issue, but seems like there are other issues here, too. 

Does he work out/lift weights, exercise, etc?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> *I think if you are feeling a lack of desire for sex then you rely on feeling desired in order to feel desire. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Everyone wants and needs to feel desired. But I think the draw back of needing to feel desired in order to feel sexual desire is that the cues you take to indicate you're being desired aren't accurate and they depend on your own self esteem to believe you're desirable. *His erection means only that his plumbing is working.


You described me to a "t". I feel sexual desire when I am desired. I don't necessarily give a fig about my own orgasm but see it as a personal 'failure' if my h isn't enjoying the experience. 



Anon Pink said:


> It's easy for me to feel this now that I'm on the other side but I honestly do not think for one second that an erection has anything at all to do with the veracity of desire.
> 
> I think also as women, who almost universally have a huge learning curve in order to orgasm, we tend to apply those same variables toward men and their erections and it's not usually accurate.
> 
> ...


You're really making me think outside the box here AP. You asked what I see when I look at the mirror and the answer is simple....an less than pretty woman. Now that doesn't mean that I'm a troll but I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that I'm not a beautiful woman, never have been. BUT I've always exuded sensuality. Unfortunately, that's not something that I can see in the mirror. It's something that I measure based on my husband's response to me. I think this is why our sex issues are hitting me so hard. 

I know that I have to redefine my worth using a different set of metrics but it still hurts.



Anon Pink said:


> ETA: @peacem was absolutely right about being playful without pressure! The things I listed work for me but if wearing lingerie isn't for you and feels disengenuous it will probably put pressure on your H.
> 
> *Managing pressure seems to be the key.*


I'm trying to not make sex the be all, end all in our relationship. The key for me is to not use avoidance as a coping mechanism, which is exactly what's happening now.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> A very long time ago I tried to be open to her regarding my self exploration habits. She got very upset and insisted she just rather not know. Then half a year ago struggling to deal with rejection I tried to get her to shop with me for something that I could enjoy on my own that perhaps she would not find offensive (book, toy, whatever...), and she pretty much exploded because she could still not deal with me masturbating. I remember it being my birthday and she complained she did not know what to get me, yet I had an online shopping cart of things reserved that she refused to even look at!
> 
> GRADUALLY she has started inquiring more about my most recent times I have masturbated as we spend intimate time together in the evening. She does not want details other than to preferably hear that, "I have been in the mood and patiently waiting for you now for a few days." When I do have to admit to it being very recently, I always downplay the details and make it sound as though I am the worlds worst at masturbating as it is horrible and I desperately need her help (she seems to respond well to this!)!
> 
> ...


Yes, it was helpful. Even though I don't post very often on other people's threads anymore (I mean who am I to advise people when I can't even fix my own issues) I do enjoy reading your posts, especially the updates on the progress with your wife. Sounds like you've figured out the magic formula. There is hope.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> My wife does not like masturbating, so she relies on me when she is in the mood. I'm always eager to please and there have been moments that I was NOT in the mood for myself, but once I started focusing on her and feeling her have orgasm after orgasm I easily get excited enough to dive right into the middle of the action!
> 
> *
> OMG!!!! EVERYONE STOP....
> ...


LOL, I'm going to have performance anxiety reading about all these multi-orgasmic women. That's always been the one thing I'm most jealous about with regards to other women. I wish I had that special gift. I'm a one and done....but I still like to have fun


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> My husband has medication and medical issue induced ED. He cannot take Viagra or Cialis as they are contraindicated.
> 
> What I have learned is that I can actually have some pretty ferociously amazing skills.
> 
> ...


I think that's where I'm at.....and it scares me.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Here's my ED experience. Hope it helps. I was in a largely sexless relationship for the last 10 years of my marriage. We went from having sex once or twice a week (peak) to once or twice a year (the last couple years). We were sexually incompatible and eventually divorced.

My next relationship was with a women 14 years younger than me (40 vs 26). She was used to sleeping with guys her age or younger. We had great sex but she'd get furious whenever I couldn't get it up. She eventually got verbally abusive to the point where I developed performance anxiety that often resulted in ED. I had a few things working against me and I think the effects compounded. I think my libido just dropped from so many years in a sexless marriage. I'm also in my 40's now and not a horny teenager anymore. The emotional abuse certainly made it worse, and was a huge turnoff even though she was incredibly sexy. Another thing that definitely hurt was years of masturbation thanks to sexless marriage.

A combination of a few things worked for me. First, I started taking Cialis and Viagra. For me, each had different effects. Cialis took effect almost immediately and resulted in very natural erections if properly aroused. Viagra took a few hours to kick in but was much more powerful. It resulted in rock hard erections, even if I wasn't aroused by her. I sometimes got too hard and she'd orgasm way before me if I even came at all. The great thing is I could screw like a porn star. Any position for any duration of time. It was kind of numbing though - I swear I could read a book while screwing her if I wanted...

Anyway, I didn't want to become addicted to the stuff so I spread them out, every other time we had sex and mixed and matched according to the situation. Cialis for those impromptu moments when I couldn't get hard naturally. Viagra for special occasions or nights I wanted to "rock her world". This also helped wean me off masturbation which I stopped completely once we had sex regularly. I found myself slowly returning to my old self (i.e. my 20's), getting horny just fantasizing about my partner in the middle of the day.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Does he know he has never given you and orgasm? This could also feel defeating to him. You make is sound like you didn't want him to give you one, or didn't care to teach him how.


He knows that it's not his fault. We've been together for 21 years and it's always been like this. It was like this with the lovers before my husband. It is what it is. Like I said, I get excited by getting him excited.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> He knows that it's not his fault. We've been together for 21 years and it's always been like this. It was like this with the lovers before my husband. It is what it is. Like I said, I get excited by getting him excited.


How about making it a project to teach him how to get you off (obviously this would not have to do with both of you but just him working on you). This may help him get his mind off himself and success might make him more confident.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Your husband has never wanted to give you an orgasm? I think that some of the issues here stem from that, to be honest. Why wouldn't a spouse be interested in giving his partner an orgasm? I don't know much at all about ED, but regardless if he suffers from it or not, I'd think that giving one's spouse an orgasm should still be of importance, or relevance. Sounds like sex has largely been about him, and now he's removing things from the menu, and it's still...all about him. These issues need addressing, as the ED seems like an issue, but seems like there are other issues here, too.


Of course he's tried to give me an orgasm but my physiology is such that it doesn't happen. I've got a super sensitive clit. To much pressure and it gives me what I describe as zingers. Not enough pressure and I don't feel it. It's a narrow window. 

It took me a really long time to experience my first orgasm and it only happened after I took responsibility for it. This was way back with my first boyfriend. It's been like this with every lover I've ever had. Always has been. Doesn't bother me at all. 



*Deidre* said:


> Does he work out/lift weights, exercise, etc?


Yes. He's is phenomenal physical condition. He's an obstacle course runner. Trains a la crossfit.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Say, can he take care of himself? Without porn? Could you provide visuals for him and would that work for you, at least occasionally?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> How about making it a project to teach him how to get you off (obviously this would not have to do with both of you but just him working on you). This may help him get his mind off himself and success might make him more confident.


I think this may actually back fire. The likelihood of success is very low. I don't want to add more pressure to his already overwhelming load.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> Of course he's tried to give me an orgasm but my physiology is such that it doesn't happen. I've got a super sensitive clit. To much pressure and it gives me what I describe as zingers. Not enough pressure and I don't feel it. It's a narrow window.
> 
> It took me a really long time to experience my first orgasm and it only happened after I took responsibility for it. This was way back with my first boyfriend. It's been like this with every lover I've ever had. Always has been. Doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> ...


Again a good project would be trying to work on him getting to know you enough to get to that right point. It may take work but it could also be enjoyable. Frankly he may be relieved that it is not about his "equipment". That way he gets to try and please you without working about he body working for him. 

"Husband here is an idea, I know you feel really bad about what is going on. Maybe we should work on teaching you how to give me an orgasm and see where it leads. This is not me asking selfishly but if it really is a mental block if we shift the focus maybe we can get past it. I want you to know that I never felt comfortable enough to try this but I love you enough to try. Even if it doesn't work at first it is still something we can do together that would be fun. I know this has been hard for us but I miss just being physical with you, so can we try this."


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Say, can he take care of himself? Without porn? Could you provide visuals for him and would that work for you, at least occasionally?


Yes, he can masturbate without porn. Actually he doesn't watch porn except when I'm out of town on business trips, which isn't often. 

I don't have any issues providing visuals for him. I'm actually open to this type of activity. It gets me excited to get him excited. Like I said, we used to do all sorts of stuff in the past but it all fell to the wayside. Now I just got to get him to agree to it. :| He doesn't want the spotlight on him. Crazy.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Lila said:


> Yes, he can masturbate without porn. Actually he doesn't watch porn except when I'm out of town on business trips, which isn't often.
> 
> I don't have any issues providing visuals for him. I'm actually open to this type of activity. It gets me excited to get him excited. Like I said, we used to do all sorts of stuff in the past but it all fell to the wayside. Now I just got to get him to agree to it. :| He doesn't want the spotlight on him. Crazy.


That's good, you can work with that. It was scary for me to make myself so vulnerable but she was really helpful and reassuring. It's also a low pressure thing, just try to avoid an ice water moment. He knows how to do it, so if not today then tomorrow. I'm sure you can figure out how to make it work for you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

How about just naked massages. No expectations of anything sexual just touching. Take the pressure off, no pun intended.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wild jade said:


> That said, to make that happen, I totally had to become a taker. The less interested in sex my husband is, the less interested in me or my pleasure he is. Sometimes, I'm sure he views it as some terrible chore. But I just ignore that and use whatever fantasy or additional stimulation I need to make things happen for myself.
> 
> I'll admit that I still do not find this easy to deal with, and have found my own sexual interest in my husband waning. Not sure what to do about that...



Totally agree on becoming a sexual taker! There was a member who used to post in SIM frequently, Faithful Wife, and she taught me that great sex mean both partners are taking simulaniously. Becoming a sexual taker shows a great deal of passion for sex, not a selfish act at all. 
@badsanta, that was hilarious!
@Lila, it's a slow shift to learn to redefine how you view yourself; a new set of metrics. First you decide to do it, then you learn different ways, then you slowly practice and practice and remind yourself and still there are times it just isn't happening. 


There is a difference between what you see in the mirror and what you feel about what you see. It doesn't matter what you see, it matters how you feel about what you see. Stop nit picking yourself. Sensuality is very hard to describe in the mirror. But it's an attitude you can see and you can feel good about.


You can't fix your husbands ED. You can work with him and support him and reassure him, but you can't fix it for him.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

One more dysfunction we had recently (it all blends together) was she had/has a seriously messed up pelvis making intercourse painful to impossible. She still felt she had to provide it (I think, we didn't talk about it like that but actions not words implied that). That put us more out of sync. When she finally said she could no longer do it I had to think hard and long but decided I could live with never having PiV again. Things got better very quickly. (Unrelated to sex, more related to being able to stand in a TSA line, she started physical therapy and it's back on the menu.)

You don't strike me like it's all about the "hot beef injection" for you.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Lila said:


> Of course he's tried to give me an orgasm but my physiology is such that it doesn't happen. I've got a super sensitive clit. To much pressure and it gives me what I describe as zingers. Not enough pressure and I don't feel it. It's a narrow window.
> 
> It took me a really long time to experience my first orgasm and it only happened after I took responsibility for it. This was way back with my first boyfriend. It's been like this with every lover I've ever had. Always has been. Doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> ...


I see, so physically, he eats well and does CF, which is great. I googled some of this just now, as I'm not familiar with ED all that much, other than the random things I've seen about it online or commercials, etc. And it seems like it can be broken down into physical and psychological categories...so if he is in great physical shape, is it mainly performance anxiety or some other psychological thought process that is causing the ED?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> That might be our problem. He'll do it if I ask him to but he doesn't desire to do it on his own. Does that make any sense?


Are you *sure* he doesn't desire to do it on his own? Does he know that you'd like him to? Would you like him to?

I sure hope the answers are No, No & Yes.

Otherwise, I'm going to lose hope again.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> . His erection means only that his plumbing is working.
> 
> It's easy for me to feel this now that I'm on the other side but I honestly do not think for one second that an erection has anything at all to do with the veracity of desire.
> 
> ...


AP, you are *SO* on target! Especially with the above.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think that's where I'm at.....and it scares me.


Unfortunately, Jade's situation can't get better.

But yours can.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> His erection means only that his plumbing is working.
> 
> It's easy for me to feel this now that I'm on the other side but I honestly do not think for one second that an erection has anything at all to do with the veracity of desire.


Buddy400 drew my attention to these words, but I think they are very important. My husband swears to me that he feels desire and pleasure when there is absolutely zero evidence that this is true. I want to believe him, but it's hard. It's so easy to internalize his lack of interest as a lack within me. No matter how hard I try, it's never good enough.

Sometimes I get so frustrated I want to give up. Other times, I try to take him at his word. Yet other times, I just say **** it and think about myself and what I want.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Buddy400 drew my attention to these words, but I think they are very important. My husband swears to me that he feels desire and pleasure when there is absolutely zero evidence that this is true. I want to believe him, but it's hard. It's so easy to internalize his lack of interest as a lack within me. No matter how hard I try, it's never good enough.
> 
> Sometimes I get so frustrated I want to give up. Other times, I try to take him at his word. Yet other times, I just say **** it and think about myself and what I want.



I don't think women have any foundational grounds to understand how ED really and truly isn't you. That was my husbands only comment for the first few years of ED. "It's not you." 

What they don't say is "it's not you at all. It's my penis I'm worried about. It just isn't working and I'm scared that it might never work again. I don't really feel like a man when I can't trust my penis to work the way it's supposed to. I don't have the tools to cope with a penis that doesn't follow directions. I'm terrified of your reaction and your rejection. It would be easier to just avoid sex until this goes away all by itself because each time my penis doesn't work I am left feeling so disabled and I sense your hurt and I don't have any way to cope with that. So let's just not have sex again and pretend we do!"


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

OK, so PIV is problematic, he doesn't like oral because it highlights his lack of erection, and he can't focus on you because you're anorgasmic in that context.

I must say I'm not entirely convinced this last item doesn't eat at him, no matter how logically and clearly you've explained your long history with this issue. Plus, it appears you've adapted in a way that puts him and his arousal center-stage. If PIV is his only way to please you, and you tie your own worth to his erection as a signifier of your desirability, that's a lot of pressure for him. to get it up.

I'm sure you've already thought of viagra etc. If he really can't give you a clitoral orgasm, what about having him give you a g-spot massage with fingers, while you take care of the sensitive external parts yourself?

Have you considered pegging or prostate massage? Big advantage being, he won't need to maintain an erection to have a mind-blowing orgasm. You can be one hell of a sexual diva while doing it, and you'll probably get dramatic audio-visual confirmation of his arousal, which you should find validating.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Lila said:


> LOL, I'm going to have performance anxiety reading about all these multi-orgasmic women. That's always been the one thing I'm most jealous about with regards to other women. I wish I had that special gift. I'm a one and done....but I still like to have fun


I was in my 40's before I taught myself to do it. It isn't a gift, it is something any woman can learn to do. (At least I think so). A good thing that came out of my husbands ED is that I took matters into my own hands which meant I self explored and learned to have better and better orgasms alone. Which in turn meant when I was having sex my orgasms became quicker and easier which took any pressure off my husband.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Lila said:


> Question - If he has responsive desire and you have responsive desire......how do get going?


I think we ALL have responsive desire, but some people think about sex more than others. When I am getting in the mood it is because I am fantasizing about my husband, or thinking about sex we had the night before for example. Which in itself is also responsive. Responding to the fantasy of my husbands sexuality and responding to past intimacy. My husband is the same but he is more reserved about talking about it and has a history of repressing his sexual needs (childhood issues). These days he is more likely to initiate sex than me, but it hasn't always been the case and has caused us a lot of problems which we have worked through. Not sure if that answers your question :smile2:.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Here's my ED experience. Hope it helps. I was in a largely sexless relationship for the last 10 years of my marriage. We went from having sex once or twice a week (peak) to once or twice a year (the last couple years). We were sexually incompatible and eventually divorced.
> 
> My next relationship was with a women 14 years younger than me (40 vs 26). She was used to sleeping with guys her age or younger. We had great sex but she'd get furious whenever I couldn't get it up. *She eventually got verbally abusive to the point where I developed performance anxiety that often resulted in ED*. I had a few things working against me and I think the effects compounded. I think my libido just dropped from so many years in a sexless marriage. I'm also in my 40's now and not a horny teenager anymore. The emotional abuse certainly made it worse, and was a huge turnoff even though she was incredibly sexy. Another thing that definitely hurt was years of masturbation thanks to sexless marriage.
> 
> ...


I have to ask.....why did you stay with a woman who verbally abused you? Please say that you broke up with this woman.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> H*ow about just naked massages*. No expectations of anything sexual just touching. Take the pressure off, no pun intended.


We do these now. It's called Nuru massages. Look it up. Lots of fun! :wink2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> I see, so physically, he eats well and does CF, which is great. I googled some of this just now, as I'm not familiar with ED all that much, other than the random things I've seen about it online or commercials, etc. And it seems like it can be broken down into physical and psychological categories...so *if he is in great physical shape, is it mainly performance anxiety or some other psychological thought process that is causing the ED?*


We don't know the culprit for the drop in desire. He's in the process of marking off physiological problems. If it's a mental thing, then I have a feeling it's going to take _a lot_ of I.C. to figure out.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Are you *sure* he doesn't desire to do it on his own? Does he know that you'd like him to? Would you like him to?
> 
> I sure hope the answers are No, No & Yes.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm going to lose hope again.


I'm basing my assumptions on his actions. As others here have attested to, this is a taboo subject with my H, as I'm sure it is with most men. I have to ride that fine line to state what I want but avoid being _too _direct.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Buddy400 drew my attention to these words, but I think they are very important. *My husband swears to me that he feels desire and pleasure when there is absolutely zero evidence that this is true. I want to believe him, but it's hard. It's so easy to internalize his lack of interest as a lack within me. No matter how hard I try, it's never good enough.*


I'm right there with you. It's incredibly difficult not to internalize. And I don't care what anyone says, once that feeling of being "less than" enters the brain, no amount of "but it's not you" is going to get it out. It's the cold water effect that @CharlieParker spoke about. 



wild jade said:


> Sometimes I get so frustrated I want to give up. Other times, I try to take him at his word. Yet other times, *I just say **** it and think about myself and what I want*.


I'd like to be able to get there however I fear that if I ever do get to that point, my next immediate thought will be "WTF am I jumping through hoops with H when I can do this alone?".


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Phil Anders said:


> OK, so PIV is problematic, he doesn't like oral because it highlights his lack of erection, and he can't focus on you because you're anorgasmic in that context.
> 
> I must say I'm not entirely convinced this last item doesn't eat at him, no matter how logically and clearly you've explained your long history with this issue. Plus, it appears you've adapted in a way that puts him and his arousal center-stage. If PIV is his only way to please you, and you tie your own worth to his erection as a signifier of your desirability, that's a lot of pressure for him. to get it up.


It's been 21 years, more than half his life, with an average of 2 x's per week sexual interaction. I would think that if my physiology was a problem for him, he'd have said something sooner. Twenty-one years is a loooong time to let something like this stew. No, I think he's enjoyed the fact that I'm low maintenance for him and he's been center stage. But you're right, now that he's experiencing ED, he can no longer keep that position comfortably, and I'm really not capable of taking it. However, in my defense, PIV is not the only way to please me, but I do want to see him show desire _for_ me.




Phil Anders said:


> I'm sure you've already thought of viagra etc. If he really can't give you a clitoral orgasm, what about having him give you a g-spot massage with fingers, while you take care of the sensitive external parts yourself?


This is basically how we've done it for the vast majority of our relationship. He gets his orgasm then I get mine while he massages my g-spot.



Phil Anders said:


> Have you considered pegging or prostate massage? Big advantage being, he won't need to maintain an erection to have a mind-blowing orgasm. You can be one hell of a sexual diva while doing it, and you'll probably get dramatic audio-visual confirmation of his arousal, which you should find validating.


I've offered. He's said "stay away from my azz", LOL.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

peacem said:


> I was in my 40's before I taught myself to do it. * It isn't a gift, it is something any woman can learn to do. (At least I think so)*. A good thing that came out of my husbands ED is that I took matters into my own hands which meant I self explored and learned to have better and better orgasms alone. Which in turn meant when I was having sex my orgasms became quicker and easier which took any pressure off my husband.


My h once said that he'd read the same thing. Right now, it's torturous to try for multiples. Men can sort of understand the feeling. It's like having the head of the penis rubbed right after orgasm; it's super sensitive.

But you've given me some hope. Maybe as I get older, I'll lose some sensitivity which will allow me to experience multiples.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> H has always had* premature ejaculation*; until the last year or so.
> 
> So,* for most of our relationship, he would usually manually take care of me first.*
> 
> ...


 @notmyrealname4, I appreciate you sharing your story. I don't find it offensive. In fact, I think it speaks directly to my OP - you've managed to cope with a less than ideal situation. 

Reading your post, as well as the others who have been generous enough to share their stories, just shows that sexual relationships are not all rainbows and unicorns. Aside from the typical LD/HD we read about constantly, there's a whole lot of 'other' that can crop up. The bottom line with these types of situations seems to be think outside the box as the price of being in the relationship.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sscygni said:


> I went through and am still coming out of a bout of intermittent ED/ performance anxiety. Won't threadjack with the reasons, but bottom line is that for me Cialis was a life-saver. One little pill gave me 48 hours of rock hard erection on demand. I tried to use them sparingly; only when I had some reason to believe that I might not be able to perform properly without. Maybe 2-4 pills / month or so.
> 
> You need to be careful if it is performance anxiety that you don't become reliant (which could make your performance worse when you are not taking the pills), but its nice to know that you have a backup plan when you need one.
> 
> Of course the longer term solution is to better understand the psychological reasons why your husband is concerned about performance, but IMO that is easier to do once he does not need to actually worry anymore.



I have noted that these pills affect your heart rate and endurance. I am a life long [long distance] runner. Yet, on these pills I get "tired" quickly....WTH. 

They make me feel weakened...not fired up!

Part of the problem is my own very slow heart rate, less then 50 BPM much of the time, due to running all these years. My heart refuses to speed up....it does not "need" to, I presume.

Or not...losing sexual endurance may be common to most men when using these pills?

Dunno, never asked anyone else! A male thing, Eh?


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Lila said:


> My h once said that he'd read the same thing. Right now, it's torturous to try for multiples. Men can sort of understand the feeling. *It's like having the head of the penis rubbed right after orgasm; it's super sensitive.
> *
> But you've given me some hope. Maybe as I get older, I'll lose some sensitivity which will allow me to experience multiples.


Yes exactly so. So you take all pressure off your clitoris and concentrate on the internal clitoris (gspot), vaginal opening or very, very light touches/patting on the outer clitoris. Obviously you have to keep fantasy going too. Edging with a first orgasm can also help produce another. For partner sex, just keeping going through internal stimulation and intense nipple stimulation can also work. You have to experiment - don't wait for sensitivity to decrease.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,

This level of candor is priceless....





badsanta said:


> A very long time ago I tried to be open to her regarding my self exploration habits. She got very upset and insisted she just rather not know. Then half a year ago struggling to deal with rejection I tried to get her to shop with me for something that I could enjoy on my own that perhaps she would not find offensive (book, toy, whatever...), and she pretty much exploded because she could still not deal with me masturbating. I remember it being my birthday and she complained she did not know what to get me, yet I had an online shopping cart of things reserved that she refused to even look at!
> 
> GRADUALLY she has started inquiring more about my most recent times I have masturbated as we spend intimate time together in the evening. She does not want details other than to preferably hear that, "I have been in the mood and patiently waiting for you now for a few days." When I do have to admit to it being very recently, I always downplay the details and make it sound as though I am the worlds worst at masturbating as it is horrible and I desperately need her help (she seems to respond well to this!)!
> 
> ...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

T supplements work wonders on a man's libido.

Problem:

This is a BIG ONE. He now has the desire....a lot of desire.

But the rest of his body and mind have to cooperate. It takes a committee of Nay Sayers in the man's body [to agree] for sex to work. When young, the Naysayers are infantile and relatively impotent.

As "He" and "They" age, the dynamic switch's hands. 

The Infants-Terrible mature and they now get the "Upper Hand", taking dominion over the man's ball's.

If they do not all agree then ED ensues. Kinda like the U.S. Congress. 

When this happens, the Tea-Taker gets frustrated and quits drinking [injecting/gelling] the stuff and quits the Tea Party Sex Movement.

Very hard on a man's ego. 

That is the worst case scenario. Taking T is an "Interim" solution and will serve many well, maybe for a decade. 

And yes, it depends on the Man and his Plumbing.....butt, but, that Plumber's Helper usually does the trick.

I skipped the psychological aspect. He will need to be malleable to get hard......huh?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> I'd like to be able to get there however I fear that if I ever do get to that point, my next immediate thought will be "WTF am I jumping through hoops with H when I can do this alone?".


I have that thought frequently, and the reality is that in many ways solo is better The amount of work required to get him invested vs payback, especially when he is not into it, and honestly I just can't be bothered.

But at the same time, having another pair of hands and an appendage can be quite helpful. Potential for a lot of extra stimulation that can bring on some very intense orgasms. I'm good on my own, but mostly don't have the patience or the dexterity to be that good, if you know what I mean.

I often feel less than, to be honest. But I will no longer bring that into the bedroom. If he doesn't find me attractive, too bad. It's up to him to figure out how to get out of it if he doesn't want to be there. LOL!


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Wow this is such a complex topic. I will say that sexuality changes over the years as we age, gain experience, use porn, have infrequent sex, and all the other things that happen in life.

I had a bad period and after coming to TAM began to address sex more directly and openly with W, who was brought up with very conservative, restrictive ideas about sex. So of course, things have moved at a snails pace, but they are picking up speed as she opens up.

I'll admit to what I have to do. As I've aged, desire and arousal have become decoupled from physical touch. A sex therapist confirmed this. Maybe this just means that men become more like women start out, but the change means H must recognize it and adapt.

For example, a light breeze will get a 19 year old hard and he's horny as a toad. If it were remotely socially acceptable (thankfully it's not), teen boys would be humping anything that moves or doesn't. Not all... but the point is all pistons are firing at the same time.

Now that I'm in my 50's I find my world upside down. I see beautiful women in leggings and am highly attracted - yet unaroused. I can get manually stimulated by my W, get completely hard and perform like a champ, but lack the desire and arousal.

I don't completely lack these things, but it's a world apart from before.

So, I make accommodations. I look at porn to visually stimulate myself and try to ramp up my sex drive. Unfortunately that's kind of like rummaging through a dumpster for a steak but it has to do. Once I'm ramped up, I come to bed and out in a good performance for my lovely bride.

Why? Because I'm completely aware of what you write in your OP. I want to show my W a confident, slightly aggressive man who is full of desire for his W. I actually feel that way but my equipment's timing is messed up. By using cheating a little to start the engine, I can give her what she needs to feel loved and desired.

Btw I do this daily - we've made a pact to have some level of intimacy nightly to get the love chemicals flowing and after 30+ years it's working great.

So I think H has to take control of himself on many levels and bring desire to the table. You also should understand this is all decoupled for him and he is probably thinking it's something wrong with him, leading to a downward spiral.

Maybe some articles about this process it a sex therapist could help.

Oh btw I also had a prostate scare last year with core samples taken, etc. we're not out of the woods there. Because if that I researched things and realized ED is very common but definitely doesn't mean desire and arousal aren't there. Just like a rock hard Johnson doesn't mean it is there.

Keep trying and working in this. Your acceptance of him will help a lot I think. Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> We do these now. It's called Nuru massages. Look it up. Lots of fun! :wink2:


Thanks I am aware. I mean that doesn't help him huh? You there are no shenanigans?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> I'd like to be able to get there however I fear that if I ever do get to that point, my next immediate thought will be "WTF am I jumping through hoops with H when I can do this alone?"


Got to be honest just this line of thinking would be a big turnoff to me. It makes it seem like for you sex is only about getting off and if you could find better you wouldn't bother anymore. It doesn't sound like that in your other posts though so this seems like a contradiction. From this comment It sounds like you are not valuing it as just something you can share together. Maybe he is feeling this. I know this kind of thinking would certainly not make me feel wanted or make me want to have sex with someone. 




wild jade said:


> I have that thought frequently, and the reality is that in many ways solo is better The amount of work required to get him invested vs payback, especially when he is not into it, and honestly I just can't be bothered.
> 
> But at the same time, having another pair of hands and an appendage can be quite helpful. Potential for a lot of extra stimulation that can bring on some very intense orgasms. I'm good on my own, but mostly don't have the patience or the dexterity to be that good, if you know what I mean.
> 
> I often feel less than, to be honest. But I will no longer bring that into the bedroom. If he doesn't find me attractive, too bad. It's up to him to figure out how to get out of it if he doesn't want to be there. LOL!


I think I am confused about both your thinking here. I am going to rant as I seem to do on here now, don't take this as an attack on you, and it is entirely possible I am misunderstanding, but I have to ask. Do you really not feel the intimate connection that having sex with your husband? Is that not part of why it is worth it. It sounds like what you are both saying is, if I could get myself off better I probably wouldn't want to have sex with my husband after a while. Huh? Even if it isn't all seeing stars and rainbows every time, or you are able to get yourself off better. I don't think that is a healthy way to look at sex, because sometimes you are not going to get off well, and he probably will never be able to get you off as well as you get yourself off. Obviously you have your own mind as a map, he can only follow whatever you tell him verbally or non verbally. 

Plus sex is so much more then just the physical feeling. It's building intimacy with your partner, sharing your body with your partner, sharing physical love with your partner, giving yourself to your partner. It isn't always about how great your orgasm is or isn't. Frankly masturbation is nothing like sex. Sex is really about two people (or more if your in to that) unselfishly giving themselves to each other, so it couldn't be more different. 

Don't get me wrong you should always strive for good orgasm, but this whole line of thinking sound like a recipe for an unhappy sex life.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@sokillme,

Sex is not always felt as an emotional experience. I myself do not need an emotional connection to want or enjoy sex. The rare times sex is not all about the great orgasm are when my menopausal hormones will not align right and at that point sex is about HIS orgasm.

I'm beginning to think that people who have never really experienced a serious inability to orgasm, never had to deprogram themselves, never had to perform mental mind games to overcome, don't fully realize how empty sex feels when it's all about the partners pleasure, day in and day out. Live like that for 15, 18, 20 YEARS and then get back to me on how important your orgasm is to you.
@TheTruthHurts, you're a good egg Noonen!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> Sex is not always felt as an emotional experience. I myself do not need an emotional connection to want or enjoy sex. The rare times sex is not all about the great orgasm are when my menopausal hormones will not align right and at that point sex is about HIS orgasm.
> 
> ...


I didn't say "always" that was not my point. I asked would you lose your desire to have it if you knew masturbation was better. Why and how is that the case? My point being sometimes it should just be about intimacy and love, and have nothing to do with orgasm. And yes it's also great when it's Marvin Gaye's "Lets Get It On". I get that. Having both is healthy, and actually take some of the pressure off of it. Plus yes maybe masturbation will be more physically pleasurable for you, but sex offers so much more then physical pleasure. If you miss the other aspects of it then maybe that is why the physical aspect is SO important, because that is all it is to you. It may also be why it takes on so much pressure, because then whether it is good or not only depends on how pleasurable it is. There is a lot less pressure if you see more then one aspect of it, as far as being successful. 

Don't get me wrong I get the drudgery of not experiencing orgasm with your partner. That sucks. But if you have a willing partner then your orgasm is really on you. You have to direct them. If you don't know yourself then learn yourself. Unless something physical is wrong, but then you should try to get help. If he/she is selfish then that is different and must be addressed. 

Maybe this is just the case of how people think about sex. I could never have sex with someone I didn't feel a strong emotional connection to. Just can't do it. To me the emotion is paramount to the action. In this case if there is no emotion then I think I can just get myself off alone, and I don't have to work for someone else pleasure.

I didn't have a lot of partners before my wife, not because I didn't have chances but because I didn't think of sex that way. It's the emotional that makes the intensity to me. The rest is just the bodies reaction. Like sneezing.

Also having sex with my wife is never and has never solely been about my pleasure. If it was it would feel very empty to me too, I guess that is why I could do the ONS, sex for fun thing. It is a pure physical expression of my love for her. My pleasure is only a part of it. I want her, I want to be close to her, I want to give myself to her, I want her to give herself to me. The bonus is the pleasure.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Thanks I am aware. *I mean that doesn't help him huh?* You there are no shenanigans?


Do you mean does it help with the ED? If so, sometimes yes, sometimes no. 

As to shenanigans, he doesn't exhibit any of the typical red flags so my guess is no.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@sokillme,

The part of @wild jade's post that I was responding to was regarding using sex with my husband too boost my self-esteem or personal validation purposes. As @Anon Pink said, we each have our own reasons for having sex. As I stated earlier, I am not a beautiful woman. I am pragmatic enough to recognize that none of the men I've ever been involved with, including H, stayed with me because of what's on the outside. They were attracted to my personality and then to my sexual confidence / sensuality. I've spent my whole adult life defining myself based on the pleasure I _give_ men in bed. Writing that makes it sound like I was sleeping around for validation but that's the furthest thing from the truth - No ONS and the men I had sex with turned into relationships. It could be because there's nothing particularly spectacular about me sexually - not multi-orgasmic, not squirter, not a 'taker', not submissive, not dominant.... - so I get my sex "thrills" from turning my h on and getting him off. IOW, I need him to show me desire. My response _ I fear that if I ever do get to that point, my next immediate thought will be "WTF am I jumping through hoops with H when I can do this alone?"_ just means that right now, being as I get my validation based on my husband's desire for and response to sex with me, going through the motions just to check off a box is not good for me. I can go it alone and get the same level of validation - Zero.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

For me there is no connection to be had from sex beyond the physical. That was not always true, but now it sure is.

There used to be times with my husband where I lost track of where his body ended and mine began, and it was a beautiful thing. Now it is just a lot of work and the only real payoff is the orgasm.

I might even go as far as to say that sex now makes me feel colder and more distant.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wild jade said:


> For me there is no connection to be had from sex beyond the physical. That was not always true, but now it sure is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm sorry to hear that @wild jade 

Do you think the emotional connection could happen again if H showed more interest in you, your relationship, his health and his appearance? It seems you are sliding into caregiver way too young (but I only have a few brief references about your situation to go on).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'm sorry to hear that @wild jade
> 
> Do you think the emotional connection could happen again if H showed more interest in you, your relationship, his health and his appearance? It seems you are sliding into caregiver way too young (but I only have a few brief references about your situation to go on).
> 
> ...


My husband and I have a very good emotional connection. It just isn’t achieved through sex, at least not at this point. 

If he actually wanted sex with me, it might be different....hard to say. But there isn't much I can do about that right now.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

wild jade said:


> For me there is no connection to be had from sex beyond the physical. That was not always true, but now it sure is.
> 
> There used to be times with my husband where I lost track of where his body ended and mine began, and it was a beautiful thing. Now it is just a lot of work and the only real payoff is the orgasm.
> 
> I might even go as far as to say that sex now makes me feel colder and more distant.


Wow that sounds awful! :surprise: What happened. Is he aware of this? This sounds so tough to live with. If I felt my wife felt that way about me it would just kill me. I would be doing all I could to fix it.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Wow that sounds awful! :surprise: What happened. Is he aware of this? This sounds so tough to live with. If I felt my wife felt that way about me it would just kill me. I would be doing all I could to fix it.


We've talked about it, but no, I don't think he really knows. I have to be very careful what I say, so as not to pressure him or make him feel bad. Because, as a bunch of people here have pointed out, that is just a turn off and mean to him. So my job is to reassure and make everything okay.

It's catch-22 for me. I don't say what I feel and try to make everything okay, and it still isn't. I do say what I feel and it ends up making him feel bad, and not wanting to change anything for me.

But this isn't supposed to be about me. Sorry for jacking your thread Lila. I hope you are more successful navigating these waters.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> The part of @wild jade's post that I was responding to was regarding using sex with my husband too boost my self-esteem or personal validation purposes. As @Anon Pink said, we each have our own reasons for having sex. As I stated earlier, I am not a beautiful woman. I am pragmatic enough to recognize that none of the men I've ever been involved with, including H, stayed with me because of what's on the outside. They were attracted to my personality and then to my sexual confidence / sensuality. I've spent my whole adult life defining myself based on the pleasure I _give_ men in bed. Writing that makes it sound like I was sleeping around for validation but that's the furthest thing from the truth - No ONS and the men I had sex with turned into relationships. It could be because there's nothing particularly spectacular about me sexually - not multi-orgasmic, not squirter, not a 'taker', not submissive, not dominant.... - so I get my sex "thrills" from turning my h on and getting him off. IOW, I need him to show me desire. My response _ I fear that if I ever do get to that point, my next immediate thought will be "WTF am I jumping through hoops with H when I can do this alone?"_ just means that right now, being as I get my validation based on my husband's desire for and response to sex with me, going through the motions just to check off a box is not good for me. I can go it alone and get the same level of validation - Zero.


Well I realize maybe my post made me sound judgemental of people who have sex just for fun. I was not trying to convey this.

Gently I think what you described really is using sex for validation. You just were not promiscuous (not judging anyone it is just a description it doesn't have any moral connotation in this context). Of course all of us find peoples desire for us as validating. I think however putting too much importance in this can really be a bad thing. It is a fine line.

Let me add here that what you wrote would make me feel a lot of pressure as your husband. Like why doesn't she believe me when I say I am attracted to her. Wow this is really important to our marriage, if I can't do this she won't believe I love her. This however probably puts a lot of pressure on you too. I mean this is very different then a partner who doesn't care enough to have sex. This man wants to it's just his body is giving out on him for whatever reason. 

Can I ask you why do you think it is that you get so much of your "self-esteem or personal validation" as you put it from being physically attractive to your husband. Yes we all want to be attractive but what you describe seems like kind of an extreme. Do you think this is healthy? The reason I say this is because eventually you are going to get older and most people in the late part of their lives are not what this world thinks are physically attractive. This seems like it may become a trap for you.

It sounds like your husband is doing the right things to help his problem, and really it is HIS problem and probably doesn't really have much to do with you are far as your actions or you as an attractive person. Maybe you can use this time to help build up your self-esteem or personal validation in other ways you relate to him. This really might be good for you and your marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

wild jade said:


> We've talked about it, but no, I don't think he really knows. I have to be very careful what I say, so as not to pressure him or make him feel bad. Because, as a bunch of people here have pointed out, that is just a turn off and mean to him. So my job is to reassure and make everything okay.
> 
> It's catch-22 for me. I don't say what I feel and try to make everything okay, and it still isn't. I do say what I feel and it ends up making him feel bad, and not wanting to change anything for me.
> 
> But this isn't supposed to be about me. Sorry for jacking your thread Lila. I hope you are more successful navigating these waters.


I am sorry about jacking the thread as well but I think some of this is all related. 

If you were going to be honest and tell him what would you say? If you feel confident enough to put that on here. If not I understand.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> We've talked about it, but no, I don't think he really knows. I have to be very careful what I say, so as not to pressure him or make him feel bad. Because, as a bunch of people here have pointed out, that is just a turn off and mean to him. So my job is to reassure and make everything okay.
> 
> It's catch-22 for me. I don't say what I feel and try to make everything okay, and it still isn't. I do say what I feel and it ends up making him feel bad, and not wanting to change anything for me.
> 
> But this isn't supposed to be about me. Sorry for jacking your thread Lila. I hope you are more successful navigating these waters.


I understand if you don't want to discuss your problems on this thread but trust me, you're not thread jacking. I want to hear from others experiencing similar situations. The good, the bad, and the ugly. It's all a part of learning. 

You may not feel like there's any possible way to turn your situation around but you never know. 

I also think there's something cathartic about sharing. There's always someone else who can relate to what you're going through.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Well I realize maybe my post made me sound judgemental of people who have sex just for fun. I was not trying to convey this.
> 
> Gently I think what you described really is using sex for validation. You just were not promiscuous (not judging anyone it is just a description it doesn't have any moral connotation in this context). Of course all of us find peoples desire for us as validating. I think however putting too much importance in this can really be a bad thing. It is a fine line.
> 
> Let me add here that what you wrote would make me feel a lot of pressure as your husband. Like why doesn't she believe me when I say I am attracted to her. Wow this is really important to our marriage, if I can't do this she won't believe I love her. This however probably puts a lot of pressure on you too. I mean this is very different then a partner who doesn't care enough to have sex. This man wants to it's just his body is giving out on him for whatever reason.


H feels that he can't perform to the standards of the past and I'm experiencing an identity crisis because if I don't change along with him, our relationship will fail. @CharlieParker said it best, the old script won't work anymore. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I'm mourning the loss. 

It's going to be difficult to create a new script that works for both of us. I recognize that the old 'us' is dead and gone. The new script is going to have to focus more on me and that's scary. My physiology is such that the most stalwart, loving man will get his feelings hurt. But going back is not an option. As @wild jade stated "it's a catch-22". 



sokillme said:


> Can I ask you why do you think it is that you get so much of your "self-esteem or personal validation" as you put it from *being physically attractive to your husband*. Yes we all want to be attractive but what you describe seems like kind of an extreme. Do you think this is healthy? The reason I say this is because *eventually you are going to get older and most people in the late part of their lives are not what this world thinks are physically attractive*. This seems like it may become a trap for you.


I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. I _do not_ put much value into my physical appearance. One cannot value that which one has never owned. However, I have put much of my self-esteem into my husband's sexual response. And yes, I am now experiencing the problems that this entails.



sokillme said:


> It sounds like your husband is doing the right things to help his problem, and really it is HIS problem and probably doesn't really have much to do with you are far as your actions or you as an attractive person. *Maybe you can use this time to help build up your self-esteem or personal validation in other ways you relate to him.* This really might be good for you and your marriage.


You're right, I am going to have to disassociate sex from personal validation. This is exactly why I'm having such a difficult time dealing with his issues. I defined myself one way throughout the relationship. Now that definition is no longer valid so I have to redefine my role.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. I _do not_ put much value into my physical appearance. One cannot value that which one has never owned. However, I have put much of my self-esteem into my husband's sexual response. And yes, I am now experiencing the problems that this entails.


You can still do this, to some extent. At least that's my experience. When I first encountered his ED, I took it very personally, as pure failing on my part. Then I took it as a personal challenge. Now I know I'm a freaking rock star because no matter the odds, I can still make it happen.

(Not entirely true, because sometimes it really just is a big fail --but still I have impressed myself with my ability to work it, all with my own skills development.)


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I am sorry about jacking the thread as well but I think some of this is all related.
> 
> If you were going to be honest and tell him what would you say? If you feel confident enough to put that on here. If not I understand.


I don't know. I feel like what I want is impossible, so no point in asking. All it will do is make us both feel bad.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

With my ex (we were married 20 years) he struggled terribly with this for about 5+ years before we split. I was a thousand percent supportive, always encouraging etc, but he refused to follow doctors orders that would help his T level. I think maybe it was due to his constant depression also. He just would rarely take his med, so as a result, we weren't intimate. If he would have kept up on doing his T stuff, I would have never given up on our sex life. 

When he showed for years that he wasn't willing to do his part, I took the message loud and clear. I asked, reminded, begged etc. He would always say he was going to stay up on it, and would do it for a week, and then back to haphazard. Ultimately it made me feel like I wasn't worth 20 seconds a day to apply a cream...

As long as your hubby is dedicated to doing all he can to improve the situation, stay close to him, let him please you when he wants to, and work hard to stay connected. It won't be easy, but I'm glad he is trying and understands how important it is to you both. I wish you the best! 

:x


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I didn't say "always" that was not my point. I asked would you lose your desire to have it if you knew masturbation was better. Why and how is that the case? My point being sometimes it should just be about intimacy and love, and have nothing to do with orgasm. And yes it's also great when it's Marvin Gaye's "Lets Get It On". I get that. Having both is healthy, and actually take some of the pressure off of it. Plus yes maybe masturbation will be more physically pleasurable for you, but sex offers so much more then physical pleasure. If you miss the other aspects of it then maybe that is why the physical aspect is SO important, because that is all it is to you. It may also be why it takes on so much pressure, because then whether it is good or not only depends on how pleasurable it is. There is a lot less pressure if you see more then one aspect of it, as far as being successful.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I get the drudgery of not experiencing orgasm with your partner. That sucks. But if you have a willing partner then your orgasm is really on you. You have to direct them. If you don't know yourself then learn yourself. Unless something physical is wrong, but then you should try to get help. If he/she is selfish then that is different and must be addressed.
> 
> ...



I had to think in this a bit to try to clarify what I'm trying to say and kept coming up empty. So maybe this will help:

If sex is no longer about orgasm for both then why have sex at all? Why not just cuddle or hold hands?

You say your pleasure is only part of it but I'd ask you how many times you've had sex that didn't include an orgasm for you and compare that to how many times the average woman has had sex that didn't include and orgasm for her and perhaps then it might be easier for you to see that for women who reliably orgasm, sex is about desire and lust and ends with an orgasm or includes an orgasm.

How many time have you had sex in which you didn't ejaculate but your partner did climax?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I don't know. I feel like what I want is impossible, so no point in asking. All it will do is make us both feel bad.



Sorry to @Lila for the T/J but I agree with @sokillme

You are cutting yourself off at the knees here. By talking out what you want here, or in private with close friends, you will be better able to get a sense of the validity of what you want. It may be impossible but I doubt that it is. I think you're afraid that you're not worthy of having what you want and I think a lot of women fall into this debilitating mindset wrt sex.

Maybe you H can't but maybe he could meet you half way or do something close to what you want. What you want sexually will not likely go away. It will eat at you and create bad feelings toward your H and resentment. For this reason I'd urge you to find a way to discuss what you want with someone and then find a way to talk with your H about it. He can't give you what he doesn't know you want.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> I have put much of my self-esteem into my husband's sexual response. And yes, I am now experiencing the problems that this entails.


But my friend, you don't have a fundamental understanding of how men work, so you do this at your own peril. Believe me when it comes to our equipment there is much more going on then just our partners turning us on. So much more. 

You know that feeling you get when you look in the mirror and feel fat, or when you don't feel clean or whatever it is that makes you feel less then sexy. Now imagine if your husband wanted sex but all of a sudden because of that feeling you couldn't make your body have sex, like you were closed up or whatever. Would you say that has anything to do with your attraction to your husband? This is what you need to understand about what men go through. Yes we feel all of those things. We don't like to say it and many of us don't know how to say it. This is what it is though. 

Would it make sense for your husband to get his self-esteem by whether or not you are feeling sexy or not? That is what you are doing. The man is married you you. You said yourself that he has always "wanted" you that way. He is just having trouble with his plumbing. 

Want to know if a man loves you? Most men I know feel like going to work everyday and doing things that he hates, not doing things that he love that are destructive and boy like, is showing his wife he love her. Restraining his aggressive nature. Now I have learned from boards, books and even others that that is not enough. But that is really how we work.

Also I am not saying disassociate sex from personal validation, I am saying find some other things to add to personal validation. 

One other thing, give yourself permission to hope. He can get past this. Many men, actually almost all go through this from time to time.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Sorry to @Lila for the T/J but I agree with @sokillme
> 
> You are cutting yourself off at the knees here. By talking out what you want here, or in private with close friends, you will be better able to get a sense of the validity of what you want. It may be impossible but I doubt that it is. I think you're afraid that you're not worthy of having what you want and I think a lot of women fall into this debilitating mindset wrt sex.
> 
> Maybe you H can't but maybe he could meet you half way or do something close to what you want. What you want sexually will not likely go away. It will eat at you and create bad feelings toward your H and resentment. For this reason I'd urge you to find a way to discuss what you want with someone and then find a way to talk with your H about it. He can't give you what he doesn't know you want.


It also may be him not knowing what you want is part of the problem. I have been with woman who basically give no direction. They just say I liked it, it was nice. I can't read your mind, I don't have your parts.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> If sex is no longer about orgasm for both then why have sex at all? Why not just cuddle or hold hands?
> 
> You say your pleasure is only part of it but I'd ask you how many times you've had sex that didn't include an orgasm for you and compare that to how many times the average woman has had sex that didn't include and orgasm for her and perhaps then it might be easier for you to see that for women who reliably orgasm, sex is about desire and lust and ends with an orgasm or includes an orgasm.
> 
> How many time have you had sex in which you didn't ejaculate but your partner did climax?


We have sex when at least one of us want an orgasm. If it's just one of that's ok. Yes, it happens more that I get mine and she doesn't, but that's her choice. I do regularly give her stand alone oral (ok sometimes, not always, will finish myself off but it's really an afterthought). That is a chapter of our new script.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

sokillme said:


> It also may be him not knowing what you want is part of the problem. I have been with woman who basically give no direction, and just say. I liked it, it was nice. I can't read your mind, I don't have your parts.


My wife is pretty good directing with her hands. It's non verbal so I occasionally get it wrong. 









_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> We have sex when at least one of us want an orgasm. If it's just one of that's ok. Yes, it happens more that I get mine and she doesn't, but that's her choice. I do regularly give her stand alone oral (ok sometimes, not always, will finish myself off but it's really an afterthought). That is a chapter of our new script.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At this point in my life I have no problems having sex when I know I won't be able to orgasm because my husband wants it. I really appreciate it when he doesn't push me to shoot for an orgasm if I know it won't happen. I think it's important that he feel as comfortable asking for what he needs as I do.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> At this point in my life I have no problems having sex when I know I won't be able to orgasm because my husband wants it. I really appreciate it when he doesn't push me to shoot for an orgasm if I know it won't happen. I think it's important that he feel as comfortable asking for what he needs as I do.


All of that was difficult for me, took lots of time, talking and trust. I think we got there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> The part of @wild jade's post that I was responding to was regarding using sex with my husband too boost my self-esteem or personal validation purposes. As @Anon Pink said, we each have our own reasons for having sex. As I stated earlier, I am not a beautiful woman. I am pragmatic enough to recognize that none of the men I've ever been involved with, including H, stayed with me because of what's on the outside. They were attracted to my personality and then to my sexual confidence / sensuality. I've spent my whole adult life defining myself based on the pleasure I _give_ men in bed. Writing that makes it sound like I was sleeping around for validation but that's the furthest thing from the truth - No ONS and the men I had sex with turned into relationships. It could be because there's nothing particularly spectacular about me sexually - not multi-orgasmic, not squirter, not a 'taker', not submissive, not dominant.... - so I get my sex "thrills" from turning my h on and getting him off. IOW, I need him to show me desire. My response _ I fear that if I ever do get to that point, my next immediate thought will be "WTF am I jumping through hoops with H when I can do this alone?"_ just means that right now, being as I get my validation based on my husband's desire for and response to sex with me, going through the motions just to check off a box is not good for me. I can go it alone and get the same level of validation - Zero.


Actually the book I am reading "Passionate Marriage" gets into this EXACT topic and the importance of putting "self validation" first and above "other validation." Right now you seem 100% focused on using "other validation" from you husband to define who you are. 

To improve the quality of your intimacy you should use "self validation" and enjoy sex with him because YOU want to enjoy sex regardless of if he can get aroused with you or not. In reality that can be a very hard thing to do, because arousal tends to be sympathetically shared between partners. Guess what, that will still happen and by learning to please yourself with him, you will actually please him too!

Segue to the topic of you learning to relax and extend your pleasure both for yourself AND for your husband (just like my wife in my other thread). I wonder if you have trouble with this because you struggle with self confidence issues of thinking you are taking too long since you are not necessarily getting your pleasure from within and you try to attribute it to your husband's level of arousal?

You are coming up against the same thing that Lightning McQueen encountered in the Pixar movie "Cars" when he discovered you have to turn left to go right! In your case you have to look within to help stimulate your partner. You have to feel worthy of receiving pleasure from him, and you have to feel worthy of taking your time to relax and enjoy it as opposed to hurrying to get it over with...

Badsanta


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> How many time have you had sex in which you didn't ejaculate but your partner did climax?


Twice that I can think of off the top of my head. One time I was just too tired, and the other I was feeling very down about our relationship and her moving away.

I have had the other though too. It had nothing to do with my attraction to my wife. 

I think you are right though, I can't get it from your perspective. If you feel like you are just a deposit box that is really not good. But something is wrong if he makes you feel that way.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> But my friend, you have a don't fundamental understanding of how men work, so you do this at your own peril. Believe me when it comes to our equipment there is much more going on then just our partners turning us on. So much more.
> 
> You know that feeling you get when you look in the mirror and feel fat, or when you don't feel clean or whatever it is that makes you feel less then sexy. Now imagine if your husband wanted sex but all of a sudden because of that feeling you couldn't make your body have sex, like you were closed up or whatever. Would you say that has anything to do with your attraction to your husband? This is what you need to understand about what men go through. Yes we feel all of those things. We don't like to say it and many of us don't know how to say it. This is what it is though.
> 
> ...


I have come to understand this is the way things are. Now I just have to move forward knowing what I know. It's not easy.



sokillme said:


> Also I am not saying disassociate sex from personal validation, I am saying find some other things to add to personal validation.
> 
> One other thing, give yourself permission to hope. He can get past this. Many men actually almost all go through this from time to time.


Here is where I disagree with you. I think I DO have to disassociate it if I want to move forward. I have to deprioritize it. Not make it the be all, end all I've made it to be. Otherwise, I'm going to continue to fall into the same trap of judging my value based on my h's responses. 

As far as hope goes....this has been going on for close to 4 years. I think it's best if I stop looking over my shoulder and yearning for what once was and start focusing on what we've got now. His ED is a part of our lives. That's the truth, one we must accept in order to figure out what needs to be done to cope.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

How is his porn use? Ask him to cut off porn for 1 week. See if that helps.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

One thing I notice is all you ladies are saying your validation comes from him being able to get off so you don't worry about you getting off. Well what if his validation comes from you being able to get off. Then you have a vicious cycle, and no one is getting off. Like since you are not getting off maybe he feels he is not really good at it and that makes him embarrassed. Like I suck at Basketball. I hated playing it. Other sports I liked. Thing is I bet if I had more instruction, a little bit of reinforcement and deticated time to it I could have gotten better at it. Just another though.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Actually the book I am reading "Passionate Marriage" gets into this EXACT topic and the importance of putting "self validation" first and above "other validation." Right now you seem 100% focused on using "other validation" from you husband to define who you are.
> 
> To improve the quality of your intimacy you should use "self validation" and enjoy sex with him because YOU want to enjoy sex regardless of if he can get aroused with you or not. In reality that can be a very hard thing to do, because arousal tends to be sympathetically shared between partners. Guess what, that will still happen and by learning to please yourself with him, you will actually please him too!


I haven't read The Passionate Marriage but it comes highly recommended. I think the problem I'm having with disassociating validation from sex, specifically my husband's sexual response, is it's been my reason for doing it for the entirety of my adult life. I've only just come to realize this by the way. I used to think sex was for emotional bonding and building intimacy until I read a post on here a couple of weeks ago that tied validation to sex. It hit me like a freight train. I thought 'YES, that's exactly how I feel when I have sex with my husband". It was the key to unlocking the difficulty I'm experiencing with all of this. My reasons for doing it are no longer valid; I'm not multi-orgasmic (one and done here); and my physiology makes me, as someone else described it, anorgasmic in the context of h 'giving' me an orgasm. Now the question becomes what's _my_ purpose for sex? And the honest answer is I don't know.



badsanta said:


> Segue to the topic of you learning to relax and extend your pleasure both for yourself AND for your husband (just like my wife in my other thread). I wonder if you have trouble with this because you struggle with self confidence issues of thinking you are taking too long since you are not necessarily getting your pleasure from within and you try to attribute it to your husband's level of arousal?
> 
> You are coming up against the same thing that Lightning McQueen encountered in the Pixar movie "Cars" when he discovered you have to turn left to go right! In your case you have to look within to help stimulate your partner. You have to feel worthy of receiving pleasure from him, and you have to feel worthy of taking your time to relax and enjoy it as opposed to hurrying to get it over with...
> 
> Badsanta



I'm not saying that there isn't some truth to what you're saying but my self confidence issues with my physical appearance do not impact my sensuality. I think it's because I _do not_ have body image issues. From the neck down I think I look great, lol. 

I can genuinely state that my 'pleasure' issues are most likely physiological. How can I know this you ask? Well, let's just say that it's a problem even under the influence of herb. You can't get much more relaxed than that. :wink2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> How is his porn use? Ask him to cut off porn for 1 week. See if that helps.


If he was using porn, this would work probably but he doesn't. It's typically when I'm away on business, and that's only once a quarter or so. 



sokillme said:


> One thing I notice is all you ladies are saying your validation comes from him being able to get off so you don't worry about you getting off. Well what if his validation comes from you being able to get off. Then you have a vicious cycle, and no one is getting off. Like since you are not getting off maybe he feels he is not really good at it and that makes him embarrassed. Like I suck at Basketball. I hated playing it. Other sports I liked. Thing is I bet if I had more instruction, a little bit of reinforcement and deticated time to it I could have gotten better at it. Just another though.


In our case, it's not that he hasn't tried or that he's a selfish lover but our relationship dynamic has been this way for over 20 years. We kind of fell into our comfort zones..and for 16+ years it worked. Now it doesn't so other truths, e.g. his desire for my pleasure and my inability to provide that for him, are spotlighted.

Sucks that hindsight is 20/20. All of the should haves, could haves, would haves become obvious.


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## stinger (May 22, 2012)

Lila: I am jumping in here after reading your previous post that was closed. I quickly went through that post as well as this one. I have a few suggestions. Someone mentioned passionate marriage. I would definitely recommend that book. I think your husband should read it also. Not sure if you or husband have read "no more mr. nice guy" by Robert Glover. I am willing to bet that your husband has become a nice guy over the years. His keeping in shape and working out are his outlets. He has confidence is that. I believe that to no fault of his own he has become a nice guy. Due to work, the way he was raised, the way you treat him, society pressures which make men look like woosies on TV etc. As a result, you have lost respect for him. In one of your posts, you mention how he can completely handle everything when it comes to race. Hotels, transportation etc. but when it comes to a date he can't. He thinks you want to handle those things because you are a strong independent woman but what you want is to respect a strong man who takes cares of himself and everything around him. It's not your fault or his, it's the way marriages work. He must take full responsibility for being the man. It's a dominant and submissive thing. Not in a kinky bids way but in a masculine/feminine polarity. You and every woman want to fully submit to a dominant man. One who has passion for himself and his wife. 
He has lost this but it can be found again. No More Mr. Nice Guy is the first step. There are other more advanced programs and books but this is a great start.
Secondly, you mentioned above about your libido. That maybe you are losing interest in sex and in terms of orgasms, you are one and done. Not to be too graphic, but when you say one and done, I am sure you are talking about one clitoral orgasm. You are completely missing out on vaginal orgasms. Where you are capable of many, many orgasms. The clitoral orgasms do not compare. Some of these programs, I mentioned earlier even show how a woman can orgasm strictly by voice. She in a sense enters a hypnotic trance (just really relaxed) where she submits to the masculine dominant man completely lets go and orgasms. I thought this stuff was fiction but it is absolutely the truth. Your libido will go through the roof and your husband will regain all his dysfunctions. It's been a long way to get where you are now and it will take time for him and you to get to the point of a super passionate marriage but it can be done. Your world and his will never be the same. Look into vaginal orgasms as well as other orgasms (nipple, lip) and no more mr nice guy. Don't give up on your husband.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> Now the question becomes what's _my_ purpose for sex? And the honest answer is I don't know.


Generally speaking this is likely your first step! 

Odds are if you husband struggles with ED and just wants you to relax and enjoy yourself, he is also struggling with validation in the same way you are. He wants to please/validate himself by pleasing you. 

So part of coping with sexual dysfunction is slowly coming to the realization of, _it is not you, it is me, ... wait a minute, your just like me! Or does this mean I'm just like you?_

Then instead of blaming each other, you slowly start to realize why you love each other so much. You want him to validate himself again by pleasing you, and he wants you to validate yourself by pleasing him... wait a minute, that's not right, is it?

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

stinger said:


> Lila: I am jumping in here after reading your previous post that was closed. I quickly went through that post as well as this one. I have a few suggestions. Someone mentioned passionate marriage. I would definitely recommend that book. I think your husband should read it also. Not sure if you or husband have read "no more mr. nice guy" by Robert Glover. I am willing to bet that your husband has become a nice guy over the years. His keeping in shape and working out are his outlets. He has confidence is that. I believe that to no fault of his own he has become a nice guy.


He started No More Mr. Nice Guy but didn't finish it. He said it wasn't for him. I've also read the book and none of it sounds like my husband. He's not a 'Nice Guy'. He's an opportunist. Totally different things.



stinger said:


> Due to work, the way he was raised, the way you treat him, society pressures which make men look like woosies on TV etc. As a result, you have lost respect for him.


Pray tell, how do I treat him?

I'm going to have to disagree about the loss of respect. If anything, I respect him _too_ much.




stinger said:


> In one of your posts, you mention how he can completely handle everything when it comes to race. Hotels, transportation etc. but when it comes to a date he can't. He thinks you want to handle those things because you are a strong independent woman but what you want is to respect a strong man who takes cares of himself and everything around him. It's not your fault or his, it's the way marriages work.


_I_ have been the 'Nice Gal' in the relationship. As the book suggests, some people give and others take. I'm no longer giving unconditionally.



stinger said:


> He must take full responsibility for being the man. It's a dominant and submissive thing. Not in a kinky bids way but in a masculine/feminine polarity. *You *and every woman want to fully submit to a dominant man. One who has passion for himself and his wife.


No offense, but you need to put down the Red Pill pipe before you hurt yourself. >

Seriously, there are some women that want to fully submit to a dominant man, there are women who want to dominate, and then there are others that want a _partner_. I fall under the last category. Forget dominance. I find humble confidence to be the most attractive, non-physical quality a man can possess. 



stinger said:


> He has lost this but it can be found again. No More Mr. Nice Guy is the first step. There are other more advanced programs and books but this is a great start.


If the shoe fits, then wear it otherwise, find the right shoe. NMMNG is not a panacea for every problem experienced by every man. H is not the target audience for that book.



stinger said:


> Secondly, you mentioned above about your libido. That maybe you are losing interest in sex and in terms of orgasms, you are one and done. Not to be too graphic, but when you say one and done, I am sure you are talking about one clitoral orgasm. You are completely missing out on vaginal orgasms. Where you are capable of many, many orgasms. The clitoral orgasms do not compare.


I'm genuinely curious... How do you know difference between a clitoral and a vaginal orgasm? You do understand that a vast majority of women are not able to orgasm vaginally, right? And that telling them that they are missing out on vaginal orgasms only makes them feel defective? Read this thread for more information.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/341538-vent-all-women-can-have-vaginal-orgasms.html



stinger said:


> Some of these programs, I mentioned earlier even show how a woman can orgasm strictly by voice. She in a sense enters a hypnotic trance (just really relaxed) where she submits to the masculine dominant man completely lets go and orgasms. I thought this stuff was fiction but it is absolutely the truth.Your libido will go through the roof and your husband will regain all his dysfunctions.


LOL, I shouldn't but I'm going to ask anyways.....How do you know it's truth? Have you tried it on a woman?



stinger said:


> It's been a long way to get where you are now and it will take time for him and you to get to the point of a super passionate marriage but it can be done. Your world and his will never be the same. Look into vaginal orgasms as well as other orgasms (nipple, lip) and no more mr nice guy. Don't give up on your husband.


Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm not planning on giving up on him just yet.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

stinger said:


> You and every woman want to fully submit to a dominant man. One who has passion for himself and his wife.


I believe the word you may be looking for is assertive.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> LOL, I shouldn't but I'm going to ask anyways.....How do you know it's truth? Have you tried it on a woman?


I know I just say the word "Sassy", boom instant orgasm. :wink2:


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Lila said:


> He's doing that now. Testosterone came back about 150 units lower than 2 years ago but still within normal limits. He sees an ED specialist tomorrow.


Lila, I'm strongly suspecting this still may be a medical/hormonal issue.
What were your H's specific blood level numbers for Total Testosterone and Free Testosterone? I'm concerned because it is often the case that blood tests for testosterone are not labelled as 'Low' unless the level falls within the lowest 2 percentile. I recommend picking up the book 'Testosterone for Life' by Morgantaler which explains more about these blood tests. Even if the Total testosterone level tests OK, it is very important to also test for the Free testosterone level since most of the total T can be 'bound'. 

I can't recall the optimal range for free T off the top of my head, but if your H's total T is in the 400-500 ng/dl range (usually the number is expressed in ng/dl units) or less, that is the area where many men start losing their libido. Some men need a total T of at least 550-600 ng/dl or higher to have a medium-drive libido (where he would have a urge for sex a couple times per week). Each man is unique, and you want your H to be seeing a urologist or endocrinologist or GP that looks at his symptoms not just the number, and one who is knowledgeable enough to know that checking the Free T is as important as Total T. Also checking your H's estradiol (a type of estrogen) level is important since than could also be a problem. Many doctors have very little training on hormones and so finding a practitioner who is experienced in this area is very important.

For many years I felt undesirable because my H had a low libido. He didn't have ED, but he did not have spontaneous desire, he rarely initiated, and when he did initiate it was relatively passive and passionless, expecting me to provide the energy to get things rolling. Once we got going, everything was fine, but it seems the stars had to align for him to be interested. He almost always waited for me to be asleep before coming to bed, and I think it was in order to avoid sex.

I avoided dwelling on this problem for years, but when I finally decided to try to spice up our sex life, it did not go well. Whenever I brought up the subject, he would deflect by talking about one of my flaws or bad habits, and he'd tell me I shouldn't depend on him for my happiness, I really needed to have more friends or hobbies, etc.. In my case, it was true that I needed more hobbies and friends etc, but even if I had more of those, they wouldn't keep me warm at night in bed or satisfy my need for touch or intimacy.

I finally pressed my H to get his T tested and he resisted, not doing it until his yearly physical. I was actually relieved to find out his T was low, since hopefully that explained his lack of interest in me. 

After a about three weeks on T therapy, my H's libido started to greatly increase. Now I would say my H is medium drive, initiating with great energy every 2-3 days on average (once in a while, even 3 days in a row). My H doesn't avoid coming to bed when I'm awake anymore, and is overall more affectionate towards me.

One of the other great things about T treatment is that it made my husband's penis more sensitive. He started really enjoying BJs and HJs, whereas before, he used to be 'meh' about those things and stopped me after a minute or two.

If T therapy turns out to be needed for your H, it is very important to either do a twice-a-week self injected shots (best and is the least expensive) or else use cream or maybe gel. I've read some men don't absorb Androgel well though plus it is an expensive patented version. Shots done weekly or monthly (too infrequently) are not a good because they cause a rollercoaster effect, and under-skin pellets are not recommended unless/until your H is sure of his needed dose. My H was given too high of a dose at first. Follow-up blood tests are taken every few weeks and the dose adjusted until his T levels are in the proper range.

I strongly recommend pursuing more testosterone (total and free) and estradiol testing to ensure this isn't your H's problem before spending too much more time trying to figure out how you will cope long term with his issues, or how to change yourself. I used to be where you are now, wondering if I'll ever have a good sex life again and trying to figure out how to change myself and my life so as to find something else that fills the hole. Now that this (my H's) specific problem has resolved, I can put off worrying about this (self-introspection, self-transformation, $$ for therapists) for hopefully several more years until something new goes wrong with our aging bodies.

Testosterone helps with libido, but it can also help with firmer erections. Your H might need some additional Viagra or Cialis if he has permanent circulation problems, or if he has psychological ED after being on T therapy, he may need short term use of Viagra or Cialis.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> No offense, but you need to put down the Red Pill pipe before you hurt yourself. >


Nicely said!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Lila said:


> > Some of these programs, I mentioned earlier even show how a woman can orgasm strictly by voice. She in a sense enters a hypnotic trance (just really relaxed) where she submits to the masculine dominant man completely lets go and orgasms. I thought this stuff was fiction but it is absolutely the truth.Your libido will go through the roof and your husband will regain all his dysfunctions.
> 
> 
> LOL, I shouldn't but I'm going to ask anyways.....How do you know it's truth? Have you tried it on a woman?


:lol:

I will volunteer to learn this and report back. Because, I'm generous that way.

You're welcome!
@stinger has been a member since 2012 but only has two posts? Hmmmmmm.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Lila said:


> In our case, it's not that he hasn't tried or that he's a selfish lover but our relationship dynamic has been this way for over 20 years. We kind of fell into our comfort zones..and for 16+ years it worked.


BTDT, earlier you said you were mourning the lose, exactly. Took us over 3 years to get comfort zone (it's still a bit tenuous but I'll take it). I had to make most, she did work with me, of the effort as she was basically comfortable.

I do wish you good luck.


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## stinger (May 22, 2012)

I will learn this quote thing soon. Anon Pink - I joined this forum in 2012 when having troubles in bed. Soft erections. Wife basically ignoring me. While I like this sight, it has a lot of negativity. It's no wonder so many marriages fail. No one takes responsibility. My wife had lost all respect for me. I never spoke with her about it. It was just clear that that is what happened. The nagging, everything I did was wrong. Sometimes still is. I needed more than this sight. I went to work on myself and recently just came back to this sight after receiving an email about passwords needing to be changed. I like to think I'm here now with a better improved version of me. I would only wish my wife would throw me a freebie every once in a while as I thought that would help me with confidence, erections but it didn't. She did not want sex. I went from having sex all the time (20 years ago) to once a week, once a month to once every 2 months. When I did initiate, she would basically just lay there, maybe a moan or two. I would grind and give her one clitoral orgasm. And I thought I was the man. 

Lila: In your marriage do you feel appreciated? Do you have an emotional connection with your husband? Do you feel attractive? Beautiful, sexy and attractive? It's your husbands responsibility to work on these issues. Or you will have just a so-so marriage. A marriage like 90% of the marriages. (I'm just picking a number. Not actually 90% but certainly a large majority) Most people assume that this is just a normal marriage and because it is a large majority maybe it is normal. But it sounds like you want more. I think all men and women want more.

While I know you dismiss the No More Mr. Nice guy idea. I really think that if you look really deeply, your husband has some form of this. I won't bring it up anymore as you are convinced that is not the case. 

I now am more confident. Have fun with my wife. She still tests me by nagging (unconsciously of course) because she fully does not trust me. I see all this going on and will make corrections. I am a straight shooter and have never lied to my wife or anyone for that matter but this is one thing I keep secret. I just don't discuss it with her. I strictly just work on myself. If she says anything like something is different about you. I only say, I just want to be the best husband ever. She slowly and I mean slowly starts having trust in me as I become more of a leader in and out of the bedroom. I recognize that she is a unique feminine woman. The emotional intimacy starts to increase. Not necessarily sex just a bond that only her an I share. This slowly allows her to let go in the bedroom. I don't stimulate the clitoris anymore. I do tease it but I do not play with it or grind against it to give her a clitoral orgasm. The G spot works best for her. She doesn't even know about the G spot. She just knows it's an area that pleasures her. I do not give any pressure to have an orgasm. Personally I don't care. My only job in bed is to pleasure her. If that leads to an orgasm, than that's great. I just wanted to say, that I too had many problems in the bed but they are getting better. I blamed it on age (48) and medicines (high blood pressure and cholesterol). And while these definitely play a part on some people, mine was strictly in my head. I sensed the lack of respect my wife had for me. I did turn to porn strictly because it was so easy, so vivid and so free. (There is a website called yourbrainonporn.com) I followed that because it is a problem for so many men including me. I know you say your husband does not look at porn but most do. They won't admit it though. Again it's an ego thing. A combination of being healthier, working on myself and my passions, as well as taking charge in my life has turned my problems around. Not completely, But it is a work in process

I have not gotten the orgasm to work strictly by voice. But It definitely heats her up. I will get there someday. 

Lila. How is your husband an opportunist? I'm glad to hear your not giving up on him. I would think he loves you, and is very turned on by you. I would also guess that he finds you very attractive. But he cannot bring this out of him. He can't find his masculine energy to ravish you with passion. Which is a form of nice guy. (sorry to reference it again)


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@kari2, I have a long thread in the Men's Forum http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/335233-testosterone-question.html where I posted about h's testosterone testing. It kind of went off into other directions but the cliff notes version of the testosterone is this - his total t was 625 in June 2014. It dropped to 466 in June 2016. GP said his E.D. was psychological and gave him a prescription for Cialis. Historically, Cialis has had no effect on H but doc insisted he keep using it. Sometimes the drug has to build in his system for it to work. H was bothered by the GP's non chalance diagnosis so he followed up with a urologist specializing in E.D. this week. Urologist went over all of H's blood work results, completed a physical exam, and recommended blood work testing for free t. Free-t results should be back end of next week. The urologist refrained from a diagnosis pending the free-t test results but he did state that the issues are most likely psychological. He gave H a prescription for Xanex (to manage anxiety) and generic Viagra (works about 50 % of the time but gives H raging sinus headaches). 

Something I skipped but is important....H went to a few sessions with a sex therapist back in 2013-2014 when the performance anxiety started. At the psychotherapist's suggestion, I stopped initiating sex. That combined with the relaxation techniques he learned worked relatively well until this year. That's when his desire for sex tanked. His initiations dropped. This is where the testosterone testing journey started.

@CharlieParker, thank you for your supportive words. It helps to know that I'm not alone.

@Anon Pink, Stinger taught me something today. "Siren Orgasm"


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Lila said:


> @ [MENTION=43678]CharlieParker, thank you for your supportive words. It helps to know that I'm not alone.


And thank you, it does help and I've gotten some good take away here.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

stinger said:


> I will learn this quote thing soon. Anon Pink - I joined this forum in 2012 when having troubles in bed. Soft erections. Wife basically ignoring me. While I like this sight, it has a lot of negativity. It's no wonder so many marriages fail. No one takes responsibility. My wife had lost all respect for me. I never spoke with her about it. It was just clear that that is what happened. The nagging, everything I did was wrong. Sometimes still is. I needed more than this sight. I went to work on myself and recently just came back to this sight after receiving an email about passwords needing to be changed. I like to think I'm here now with a better improved version of me. I would only wish my wife would throw me a freebie every once in a while as I thought that would help me with confidence, erections but it didn't. She did not want sex. I went from having sex all the time (20 years ago) to once a week, once a month to once every 2 months. When I did initiate, she would basically just lay there, maybe a moan or two. I would grind and give her one clitoral orgasm. And I thought I was the man.
> 
> I now am more confident. Have fun with my wife. She still tests me by nagging (unconsciously of course) because she fully does not trust me. I see all this going on and will make corrections. I am a straight shooter and have never lied to my wife or anyone for that matter but this is one thing I keep secret. I just don't discuss it with her. I strictly just work on myself. If she says anything like something is different about you. I only say, I just want to be the best husband ever. She slowly and I mean slowly starts having trust in me as I become more of a leader in and out of the bedroom. I recognize that she is a unique feminine woman. The emotional intimacy starts to increase. Not necessarily sex just a bond that only her an I share. This slowly allows her to let go in the bedroom. I don't stimulate the clitoris anymore. I do tease it but I do not play with it or grind against it to give her a clitoral orgasm. The G spot works best for her. She doesn't even know about the G spot. She just knows it's an area that pleasures her. I do not give any pressure to have an orgasm. Personally I don't care. My only job in bed is to pleasure her. If that leads to an orgasm, than that's great. I just wanted to say, that I too had many problems in the bed but they are getting better. I blamed it on age (48) and medicines (high blood pressure and cholesterol). And while these definitely play a part on some people, mine was strictly in my head. I sensed the lack of respect my wife had for me. I did turn to porn strictly because it was so easy, so vivid and so free. (There is a website called *yourbrainonporn.com*) I followed that because it is a problem for so many men including me. I know you say your husband does not look at porn but most do. They won't admit it though. Again it's an ego thing. A combination of being healthier, working on myself and my passions, as well as taking charge in my life has turned my problems around. Not completely, But it is a work in process


I'm glad you shared your story, particularly on how you sought help for your overactive porn use. Yourbrainonporn is highly recommended as very helpful when dealing with this type of sexual dysfunction. 




stinger said:


> Lila. *How is your husband an opportunist?* I'm glad to hear your not giving up on him. I would think he loves you, and is very turned on by you. I would also guess that he finds you very attractive. But he cannot bring this out of him. He can't find his masculine energy to ravish you with passion. Which is a form of nice guy. (sorry to reference it again)


I say he's an opportunist because if I give an inch, he takes a mile. It's not done intentionally but he will take things I do for him for granted. I need very strong boundaries with him or he'll steam roll me.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Sorry to @Lila for the T/J but I agree with @sokillme
> 
> You are cutting yourself off at the knees here. By talking out what you want here, or in private with close friends, you will be better able to get a sense of the validity of what you want. It may be impossible but I doubt that it is. I think you're afraid that you're not worthy of having what you want and I think a lot of women fall into this debilitating mindset wrt sex.
> 
> Maybe you H can't but maybe he could meet you half way or do something close to what you want. What you want sexually will not likely go away. It will eat at you and create bad feelings toward your H and resentment. For this reason I'd urge you to find a way to discuss what you want with someone and then find a way to talk with your H about it. He can't give you what he doesn't know you want.


I will give it a whirl. What I want is for him to desire me.

What I have learned, though, is that his sexual desire has little to do with me, and my sexual desire has little to do with him. 

We have talked about these issues quite a lot, actually. And what I have learned makes me withdraw from him. I can't invest anything in our sex life because all it does is make me vulnerable to an illusion. I poured my heart and soul into improving our sex life, and it just made him less interested in me. And he didn't appreciate the effort. When I called him on that, he denied it, but his actions were different than his words.

So I stopped pouring my heart and soul into it. And I know tat when he feels desire, it has more to do with his own head and other women than it does with me. And all of this makes me cold. And so when I feel desire, it is no longer for him. It is just one way for me to get off.

Hmmm. Don't know if any of that makes sense.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wild Jade,

I think I get what you mean about wanting him to desire you. Does he know that your drive is prompted solely on wanting sex and not a desire for him? 

Do you feel like your husband is physically attracted to you? I don't feel like that from my husband. Even though when I ask he swears he does, he can't show it so I have to take his word for it. I have always had to bring that myself. 

Sometimes I want sex because I'm just plain horny, gotta scratch an itch. Sometimes I want sex because I've read or seen something that turned me on. Sometimes I think about a time we had great sex and I get turned on wanting more of that great sex. There are times when my husband has actively engaged me to turn me on. Although he is involved in all of those scenarios I can't really say I desire him (though I do love his erection!) and I'm pretty sure he feels the same way because I've never seen it in his eyes, but then again I might not know what it looks like so I could be missing it...

I've been married 30 years and I can't really pin point the time when I went from desiring him with butterflies in my stomach every time our eyes met, to...not. His weight gain during my first pregnancy bothered me, I remember thinking he'd lost some of his cute.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe your marriage has reached the point in which you have to decide if you can do this for the rest of your life if nothing changes. I'm not at all suggesting you should go or stay. But maybe a goal of finding real peace with what you have or finding the courage to insist on getting what you need, or finding the strength to leave. It's okay to not decide right now, but soon you would do well to preparing for the future you're making today.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Thanks for sharing that @Anon Pink! It is a question I've been asking myself a lot lately. Do I even care if he finds me sexually desirable? And do I care if I find him desirable. For me, sex is mostly just scratching an itch. And the better the orgasm, the more I enjoy ir and the more fulfilled by it I feel. As long as I can keep those coming (pun intended), I can be happy. I think.

I'll likely never find another guy that I feel so comfortable with. And while I might find one to have rocking sex with, how long would it last? Would it be worth giving up what I have now? Experience tells me no.

Besides, I suspect the stories I told myself when I was younger and more idealistic were probably not all that true anyway. So why cling to ideals when I can have a pretty decent reality?

I wish I could like your post more than once!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> :lol:
> 
> I will volunteer to learn this and report back. Because, I'm generous that way.
> 
> You're welcome!


I say no way. There are some voices, those super deep growly voices, that make me weak in the knees and wanting to rip much clothes off. But orgasm? Nuh uh. 

But then again, I can't be hypnotized either. They've tried, but I'm not compliant enough. LOL!


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

It makes sense @wild jade, not pleasing, to me but I get it.



Anon Pink said:


> But maybe a goal of finding real peace with what you have or finding the courage to insist on getting what you need, or finding the strength to leave.


A combo of the first 2 works for me, but it's really hard to get (and stay?) there. 

We, more correctly I, had a fail today. I can accept it. I'm not mad at myself (never in the past was I mad at her) and she is ok too. That took a while to get there. Fails will happen.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

stinger said:


> I know you say your husband does not look at porn but most do. They won't admit it though. Again it's an ego thing.



I agree I bet he looks at porn more then you think.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Lila said:


> @ his total t was 625 in June 2014. It dropped to 466 in June 2016. ....
> The urologist refrained from a diagnosis pending the free-t test results but he did state that the issues are most likely psychological.
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@kari2, your post was made shortly after my h read the entire thread so he hasn't seen it yet. I'll make sure that he does. Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge on the subject.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> @kari2, your post was made shortly after my h read the entire thread so he hasn't seen it yet. I'll make sure that he does. Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge on the subject.


Your H read the entire thread:surprise: 

How'd that go?

Looks llke he may have decided to actually communicate?


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Lila said:


> @kari2, your post was made shortly after my h read the entire thread so he hasn't seen it yet. I'll make sure that he does. Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge on the subject.


 @Lila , 
It's wonderful that your H is reading this thread, it bodes very well for your relationship health and your future together. 

It sounds like your H is willing to listen to you and to others here who have been through similar problems, to proactively try possible approaches or treatments, and to work together with you. 

It is very difficult for most of us to admit we have a problem which is adversely affecting our partner, and to rise above being defensive or focusing on feeling insulted, denying/avoiding the issue, or deflecting/blame shifting, especially when it has to do with sex, virility, etc..

I hope your H's doc is knowledgeable about the need to test for estradiol and hemocrit (hemoglobin) and PSA numbers BEFORE starting T therapy since it best to have those baseline numbers. Then if T therapy is started, it is very important to test blood levels of total AND free testosterone, estradiol, and hematocrit after about 6 weeks to see if the numbers are good. If the hematocrit is too high, your H may need to donate blood every so often to keep the number lower. 

If the estradiol is too high in the follow up blood test, Arimidex pills may be needed (if so, in that case, estradiol should be checked yet again in a week or two because it is very easy to take too much Arimidex (men usually need to slice up estrogen suppressing pills that are chiefly marketed to women e.g. with breast cancer). When you take T therapy some of the T gets converted to estrogen, and some men's bodies do this more than others.

This article emphasizes how it is so important to have a doc that knows what they are doing when it comes to doing follow up blood tests after starting treatment (or one who is willing to read up and learn):

Why the FDA Is Wrong about Testosterone - Life Extension

I hope your H is self-confident and assertive enough to ask his doc for all the recommended tests (free T, estradiol, hemacrit, PSA) if the doc doesn't appear to be ordering those before starting treatment, and then again a few weeks after starting treatment. Most docs get little to no training in medical school devoted to hormone therapy unless they are endocrinologists (and even those probably don't get much instruction regarding T therapy), so it takes either a doc willing to read up and get more up-to-date on T therapy, or one who already specializes in this area.

Note for men with relatively low T to start with, the PSA number naturally will rise a bit in the first few weeks of treatment, it is normal and expected. The PSA number should level off in a couple months to then stay at the new normal which is higher than the starting point.

On T therapy, some men are concerned about testicles shrinking, and according to my H's doc, that doesn't happen to most men but happens to a very small percentage (but it is still normal and causes no problems). This did not happen to my H. If it happens to your H and really bothers him, he can take additional hCG to increase their size again.

Some men can experience somewhat more hair loss, but only if they are genetically susceptible to male pattern baldness, and would have that issue anyway if their T was in the normal range naturally.
(I personally would rather have an H with a libido than one with a thick head of hair.)

If the T is too high, the man can experience acne. When my H's initial dose was too high, he started groping me while he was asleep (I liked it actually even though it woke me up, I found it funny since he was so surprised when he woke up during the act) but that stopped after his dose was lowered.

If you are trying to get pregnant, your H can't use T therapy (it affects fertility), but may use hCG therapy instead. T therapy doesn't make you permanently sterile, only while it is being taken (but men who need it generally stay on it the rest of their lives unless they want to go back to their Low T issues).

If your H tries T therapy and later decides to go off of it, he'd need to wean off slowly and maybe use hCG during that period.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Your H read the entire thread:surprise:
> 
> How'd that go?
> 
> Looks llke he may have decided to actually communicate?


Yep, he read it after I asked him if was lying to me about his porn use or in his case, lack thereof. He was going to respond directly but said it wasn't worth the effort to get his password reset. 

Anyway it wasn't a big deal. Nothing I've said here came as a surprise. It's all stuff I've shared with him before. The only point he made was that I left out what he considers to be key information (he gets erections in the middle of the night, fantasizes throughout the day, and has been getting random erections throughout the day). Although true, I didn't include that information in this thread because none of those occur while we're together, or at least awake. IOW, it doesn't affect the conversation - 'coping with sexual dysfunction". 

He agreed with the posts describing anxiety due to fear of failure, and about not losing hope that things will return to 'normal'. I completely understand his fear of failure but can't agree with hoping things will go back to the way they were. The past is the past. Today is a new day.

I think he now recognizes that my reason for having sex is no longer there. If he wants it to happen, then he's going to have to put in the effort to make it happen.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Lila, 

Yes you must have hope, as hard as that may be right now. ED absolutely can get better. My H rarely experiences it now. Maybe 1 in about 40 times and when it does happen, the steps we take to alter the focus work and he gets his erection back.

It absolutely can get better!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

kari2 said:


> It sounds like your H is willing to listen to you and to others here who have been through similar problems, to proactively try possible approaches or treatments, and to work together with you.
> 
> It is very difficult for most of us to admit we have a problem which is adversely affecting our partner, and to rise above being defensive or focusing on feeling insulted, denying/avoiding the issue, or deflecting/blame shifting, especially when it has to do with sex, virility, etc..
> 
> ...



Kari, I may have given the wrong impression with the last post. The information you provided is incredibly valuable and very helpful but having said that, my husband has said that at this point, he won't be seeking further medical intervention. 

His research, coupled with his drs. recommendations based on his bloodwork results and physique (he's incredibly fit and bald, LOL), have convinced him that hormone replacement therapy would do him more long term harm than good.....and I'm not going to push on the subject. 

One of the comments he made last night after reading the thread was that I need to back off and let him decide the best course of action for him. He said that the more I try to make this the focus of our relationship , the worse it is. Now that I have a better understanding of _my_ reasons for having sex in the first place, it doesn't seem so bad to step away.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> @Lila,
> 
> Yes you must have hope, as hard as that may be right now. ED absolutely can get better. My H rarely experiences it now. Maybe 1 in about 40 times and when it does happen, the steps we take to alter the focus work and he gets his erection back.
> 
> It absolutely can get better!


I don't think our sex life is over. I just accept that the old way of doing things is dead and gone. 

I do think ED is here to stay and will be a part of our lives forever. Wishing our old sex life back will only depress me.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Is the pharma route an option he is willing to try again. For me the side effects became less of an issue with time.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Is the pharma route an option he is willing to try again. For me the side effects became less of an issue with time.


Well... I haven't asked him but he *did* get the prescriptions for Cialis, generic Viagra, and Xanex filled so I can only surmise that he's open to using them. Gosh, I sure hope he plans on using the Cialis. That stuff was $35 per pill!:surprise: I think he got 10 of them.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Sounds good. 

Keep up the communication, the (as needed) ED pills are wonderful physically, but can bring on other emotional/mental issues (I may be projecting our situation, but I mean for you more so).


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Keep up the communication, the (as needed) ED pills are wonderful physically, but can bring on other emotional/mental issues (I may be projecting our situation, but I mean for you more so).



Charlie, could you elaborate a bit by what you meant by "ed pills are wonderful physically but can bring on other mental issues"?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Again different situations, but my wife hates it if I get an erection after taking the pill but before we get to the bedroom (it happens occasionally). She wants to feel that she is part of the process. She has also felt that she needs to be ready at an hour's notice 24/7 because I could just take a pill. 

You're inviting a third party into the process, and after the 16 years. There will have to be some scheduling or forethought. Who gets to say when to take the pill? (24/7, not happening.) There is a chance of big butt hurt if you're not on the same page. Cialis, with its longer window of efficacy, should help minimize these problems. Talk, then talk more. 

HTH.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Again different situations, but my wife hates it if I get an erection after taking the pill but before we get to the bedroom (it happens occasionally). She wants to feel that she is part of the process. She has also felt that she needs to be ready at an hour's notice 24/7 because I could just take a pill.
> 
> You're inviting a third party into the process, and after the 16 years. There will have to be some scheduling or forethought. Who gets to say when to take the pill? (24/7, not happening.) There is a chance of big butt hurt if you're not on the same page. Cialis, with its longer window of efficacy, should help minimize these problems. Talk, then talk more.
> 
> HTH.


I remember another thread where a wife was complaining about this. Her husband would take a viagra and it would work well, too well in her opinion. It was as if it allowed him to ignore all the underlying problems, and take all her excitement of successfully getting him aroused and boil it down to just enjoying a chemical reaction from a pharmaceutical lab. 

So YES @CharlieParker ED drugs can introduce some unexpected dynamics into the bedroom emotionally for wives.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Lila said:


> my husband has said that at this point, he won't be seeking further medical intervention.
> 
> His research, coupled with his drs. recommendations based on his bloodwork results and physique (he's incredibly fit and bald, LOL), have convinced him that hormone replacement therapy would do him more long term harm than good.....and I'm not going to push on the subject.
> 
> One of the comments he made last night after reading the thread was that I need to back off and let him decide the best course of action for him. He said that the more I try to make this the focus of our relationship , the worse it is.


 @Lila, I'm sorry it sounds like your H is in defensive mode right now. My H similarly thought I was trying to control him when I pushed him to get his T tested. I was lucky that my H's free T came back as low (meaning lowest 2 percentile), but if it had been 3rd percentile that test would have showed as 'normal' and maybe he never would have tried the therapy, and our sex life would never have improved.

It makes sense to lay off him for now until his free T test result comes back. Also maybe after some time with no pressure, he might think more about what he read in this thread and process it and come to a point of not being defensive. 

Of course your H says it is better for you both if you stop talking about this since he is getting annoyed and wants this pressure to stop, and he may avoid you and sex if he thinks the subject will be brought up again. However, if you permanently stop bringing it up, then he will do nothing and nothing will improve.

I can't speak much about Viagra or Cialis since my H hasn't taken those and thus I haven't researched them. But I've read many men here on TAM (I've been here since 2012 and was 'kari' until password reset problem) say the stuffy nose, headache, color vision issue with those seem to mostly go away or lessen greatly if you keep taking them. Cialis and Viagra are mostly just for erections though and don't help with libido and don't increase penile sensitivity the way testosterone does.

Your H is right that Cialis and Viagra are 'medications' and not natural. But testosterone therapy is not a medicine per se, it is a natural hormone. It is identical to what your body makes but perhaps isn't making enough of anymore. 

Being in good shape doesn't mean you cannot have low T. My husband has been a runner all his life, has a lean muscled body, does cardio exercise on 99% of days. He doesn't lift weights, but does squats, lunges, push ups, sit ups every day. He eats mostly veggies and whole grains, and avoids junk food. 

This article Why the FDA Is Wrong about Testosterone - Life Extension discusses a study of 83,000 veterans full text of study that showed that T therapy helps prevent heart attack and stroke. It explains how the FDA has frightened doctors against T therapy based on two studies where the recommended T therapy protocols were not followed: the T blood levels were never tested again after treatment started and estradiol level (which can increase after T therapy) was never tested at all. One of the the two flawed studies included only 209 men, treatment was only for 3 months, and many of the men were elderly (> 75) or had existing heart disease.

If your H says his research led him to believe "hormone replacement therapy would do him more long term harm than good", I question how much time he put into it, because the majority of studies, the longer term studies, and the better-run studies (which actually checked the T levels after treatment) show the opposite is true: T treatment lowers risk of heart attack, stroke, diabetes, and overall mortality. There used to be a myth believed by most doctors that T treatment can cause prostate cancer. Recent reviews and studies indicate there is no evidence for added risk for developing prostate cancer after testosterone therapy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3424887/ 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25260832

Another article on T and prostate cancer

Perhaps your H's doc isn't aware of the more recent information on this subject.

BTW, I just saw this interesting and surprising article about a very experimental potential treatment where T therapy is used to help shrink prostate cancer tumors: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news..._helps_some_men_with_advanced_prostate_cancer

Having random erections doesn't mean you don't have low T, but your H maybe isn't as low as my H was since it sounds like he has random erections more often and is fantasizing (assuming he didn't recently take Vialis or Cialis which of course can cause spontaneous erections). The fantasizing sounds like a good sign, my H never did that when he was low T. Maybe you could ask what time of day your H tends to fantasize, maybe you need to schedule sex for middle of the day on weekends for instance.

Regarding natural vs Viagra erections: I think I'd be happy if my H (if he had ED which he did not) told me he wanted a date night and was planning to take a Viagra pill. I wouldn't mind the artificial start as long as he seemed to be really enjoying the sex, and really into it. However, I used to (before T therapy) be a bit sad that when my H initiated, it almost always seemed to be in the morning when he happened to have morning wood. It was the only thing that ever reminded him to have sex with me, random morning wood. I think purposely taking a pill would make me feel more special and show he cares about our sex life, since he would be proactively planning and thinking ahead.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

I wanted to add that if your T level suddenly drops, it could be an indicator of already having prostate cancer:

Low Testosterone May Indicate Prostate Cancer Progression | Cancer Network

Also, a study finds if you have low T before having prostate cancer, your prognosis is worse:

Editorial: The importance of knowing testosterone levels in patients with prostate cancer - BJUI

Low testosterone levels are related to poor prognosis factors in men with prostate cancer prior to treatment. - PubMed - NCBI

Free Testosterone May Dictate Necessary Treatment in Prostate Cancer

In other words, if a man has high T levels and also has prostate cancer, there is a possibility he could leave it untreated and do surveillance because it might be the slow growing type that will never kill him. If he has low T and prostate cancer, he is much more likely to have aggressive cancer that will end up killing him.

Ignoring low testosterone can be risky:

Low Testosterone, Early Death?
@Lila , if your H's free T test does not come back as low, then maybe your H doesn't need to worry for now, but since his T dropped by 25% over a 2 year period, I think he should retest every six months to see what the pattern is, maybe it just dropped temporarily if he was having a bad day, etc.. 

It is important to use the same laboratory for follow up tests because each lab's equipment is slightly different. Also test at the same time of day. A man's T can fluctuate during the day, where the morning level is higher, and the level can normally vary based on emotions and lifestyle (e.g. it lowers when a man cares for a young child, it rises if a man wins a game and lowers if he loses). 


I also wanted to mention some other ways to boost testosterone without taking T therapy:

Raising testosterone naturally


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Badsanta's techniques for naturally raising testosterone #5643 Building a freakishly huge bonfire*

All men know it! Building a fire is one of the most primitively satisfying things a man can do. Is it scientifically proven that building a large fire produces ample amounts of testosterone? ...it does not have to be, just have your man build you a humongous fire and watch what it does to him! 

It is almost like conjuring up some kind of ancient pagan sorcery for the male libido!










Cheers,
Badsanta


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> I think he now recognizes that my reason for having sex is no longer there. If he wants it to happen, then he's going to have to put in the effort to make it happen.


Lila, one thing my friend. You reason for having sex shouldn't only be because it makes you feel good about yourself. I know you said that was what it was in the past, but it is not fair to him or your marriage to be like, "well my reason for having sex was to feel attractive, since I can't feel that anymore F it, it's not my problem". You are not thinking about sex the right way, that is a very selfish way to think about it. You are essentially saying since this isn't going my way right now I am taking my ball and going home. 

Sex is something you can both do to bring you closer together. It was never and should never have been primarily about you feeling attractive. You willingness to discard it so fast when you don't feel that way proves that. 

It's understandable that you are feeling hurt and insecure right now, but the way to handle this is not to say (well I will just never bother again). Please trust all of us when we say this has nothing to do with your attraction level, and wait and see. Your life, your sex life will be much better for it. OK?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@CharlieParker an @badsanta, thanks for clarifying. I haven't given ED meds much thought but for right now, I don't have an opinion either way. You've given me food for thought.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Lila, one thing my friend. You reason for having sex shouldn't only be because it makes you feel good about yourself. I know you said that was what it was in the past, but it is not fair to him or your marriage to be like, "well my reason for having sex was to feel attractive, since I can't feel that anymore F it, it's not my problem". You are not thinking about sex the right way, that is a very selfish way to think about it. You are essentially saying since this isn't going my way right now I am taking my ball and going home.
> 
> Sex is something you can both do to bring you closer together. It was never and should never have been primarily about you feeling attractive. You willingness to discard it so fast when you don't feel that way proves that.


Everyone has their individual reasons for having sex, all are _selfish_. We get something from it whether it's an emotional connection, orgasm, ego-boost, it's a spouse's requirement for marriage, etc. None are more right than the others. They just are. 




sokillme said:


> It's understandable that you are feeling hurt and insecure right now, but the way to handle this is not to say (well I will just never bother again). Please trust all of us when we say this has nothing to do with your attraction level, and wait and see. Your life, your sex life will be much better for it. OK?


Acknowledging my reason for wanting sex has liberated me. I don't want to derail this thread but my husband has had a difficult time doing things to make me feel like a priority in his life. I felt taken for granted when I was always willing to have sex even when my husband was behaving poorly. Honestly, I felt pathetic (such a loser). Now that I understand my reason for sex, my response makes so much more sense. It's quite calming. 

I can't continue to make sex about self-validation which means that my husband is going to have to give me a reason to want it. Like it or not, our sexual relationship is in his hands. It's up to him to decide whether to step up his game flirting/wooing (he's never had to entice me for sex) or show me that I'm a priority in his life (make me primary not an afterthought). I'm no longer going to 'give' unconditionally.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I think that makes total sense, Lila. There has to be something in it for you, otherwise you just end up giving and giving until there is nothing left. One thing I've learned is that sex doesn't always bring you closer. And it can't be just one person working on the problem. 

For me, the reason I have sex is different than yours. It is all about experiencing touch and physical pleasure. So that keeps me going back for more, even when my husband isn't putting in any effort. 

But the reality is that if he can't find some ways to keep me wanting sex with him, I too will lose any interest in it. He has to bring something to the table.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> Acknowledging my reason for wanting sex has liberated me. I don't want to derail this thread but my husband has had a difficult time doing things to make me feel like a priority in his life. I felt taken for granted when I was always willing to have sex even when my husband was behaving poorly. Honestly, I felt pathetic (such a loser). Now that I understand my reason for sex, my response makes so much more sense. It's quite calming.
> 
> I can't continue to make sex about self-validation which means that *my husband is going to have to give me a reason to want it. Like it or not, our sexual relationship is in his hands. It's up to him to decide whether to step up his game flirting/wooing (he's never had to entice me for sex) or show me that I'm a priority in his life (make me primary not an afterthought). I'm no longer going to 'give' unconditionally.*


YIKES, this sounds almost like a temper tantrum to me! It sounds like you "want your husband to want you" which is problematic because you will want him to want you in specific ways that you will want to be wanted and only when you are ready for him to want you. 

Sex and overall positive wellbeing tend to go hand in hand. You can not _demand_ that your partner contribute to your wellbeing and hold them solely responsible for when things do not work out and you get frustrated. 
@Lila you need to ALSO show your husband that your sexual relationship is in your hands as well. You need to take responsibility for your desire and arousal and SHARE that with your husband. You also need to nurture him and let him know that you love him. At the end of the day it is all about communication, patience, and a willingness to still love each others imperfections. 

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> YIKES, this sounds almost like a temper tantrum to me! It sounds like you "want your husband to want you" which is problematic because you will want him to want you in specific ways that you will want to be wanted and only when you are ready for him to want you.
> 
> Sex and overall positive wellbeing tend to go hand in hand. You can not _demand_ that your partner contribute to your wellbeing and hold them solely responsible for when things do not work out and you get frustrated.
> 
> ...


Not a temper tantrum by any means of the imagination. All I'm saying is that sex is not a priority to me any longer because my reason for having it is gone. Does that mean I'm never going to have it again? Of course not. If sex is in fact a 'need' for him, then I'm more than happy to fulfill it......on the condition that he starts to fulfill some of my needs as well (which he's been reminisce in doing).


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> I think that makes total sense, Lila. There has to be something in it for you, otherwise you just end up giving and giving until there is nothing left. One thing I've learned is that sex doesn't always bring you closer. And it can't be just one person working on the problem.
> 
> For me, the reason I have sex is different than yours. It is all about experiencing touch and physical pleasure. So that keeps me going back for more, even when my husband isn't putting in any effort.
> 
> *But the reality is that if he can't find some ways to keep me wanting sex with him, I too will lose any interest in it. *He has to bring something to the table.



Wild Jade, what are some of the ways that he does this? Do you think your relationship will be affected if you stop desiring the physical pleasure?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@badsanta, if your sexual identity is based solely on pleasing your partner, and you put everything into that and all you take back is validation of your desirability, what else is left to give? 

Because it sounds to me that this is what Lila is facing. He can't give her orgasms, so all he has to do is receive pleasure. Why isn't he have to bring anything to the table except his desire to be gratified?

My sitch is different because my husband can give me orgasms if he wants to. So really, all he needs to do is keep wanting to --

None of it should be too much to ask. And putting a foot down on that hardly qualifies as a temper tantrum.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> Wild Jade, what are some of the ways that he does this? Do you think your relationship will be affected if you stop desiring the physical pleasure?


I don't think I can stop desiring the physical pleasure. It's been a driving force my whole life. So he is probably safe, LOL.

Mostly, he just needs to be into it. I almost never receive oral anymore, for example. He rarely tries anything new, or wants anything different. And he seems to put as little effort in as possible.

If he could just be a little more interested, I could probably deal pretty well. But as it is, I feel like I do everything, and I'm getting tired of it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wild jade said:


> @badsanta,* if your sexual identity is based solely on pleasing your partner, and you put everything into that and all you take back is validation of your desirability, what else is left to give?
> 
> Because it sounds to me that this is what Lila is facing.* He can't give her orgasms, so all he has to do is receive pleasure. Why isn't he have to bring anything to the table except his desire to be gratified?
> 
> ...


 @wild jade you are correct, but if that is ALL THERE IS to someone's sexual identity (both him and her), it is time to grow up and mature a little bit.

What else is there left to give? For each partner to demonstrate how much they love each other and SHARE those feelings with the other person, REGARDLESS or not if those feeling are reciprocated. 

As opposed to coming to the table with a simple desire to receive gratification, an important example might be for Lila's husband to define exactly what it is that is causing his anxiety and trust that she will help him in a loving way to confront it. Because he is still having anxiety means that he has YET to really confront whatever this is. Perhaps he thinks he has conveyed it to her, but when you fully confront something you are usually able to become free of your anxiety. Hopefully this is the direction that they are moving in... 

*...intimacy is not all about giving/receiving gratification, it is way more about vulnerability* and being brave enough to lean into it while letting go of the fear that those around you may or may not love you once you reveal your true self. Once you are married to someone for a long time and have kids, it is easy to become overprotective and start hiding parts of yourself that you feel the other person will object to or has objected to in the past. By doing this a person starts to deny who they really are. Then the risk of an emotional or physical affair becomes high as individuals are free to be themselves with someone they have absolutely no fear of loosing. 

Now I'm not saying there has been infidelity, but in the face of anxiety it is a sign that someone is not exactly being true to themselves. Doing so sometimes takes a tremendous amount of courage and letting go of the fear that you will loose those around you that you love. Generally the opposite occurs as being true to yourself actually helps those around you to know how to love you. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

wild jade said:


> @badsanta, if your sexual identity is based solely on pleasing your partner, and you put everything into that and all you take back is validation of your desirability, what else is left to give?
> 
> Because it sounds to me that this is what Lila is facing. He can't give her orgasms, so all he has to do is receive pleasure. Why isn't he have to bring anything to the table except his desire to be gratified?
> 
> ...


Him giving her orgasm is as much if not more her responsibility as his. Sounds like she isn't willing to really work on that, she just has accepted defeat.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I don't think I can stop desiring the physical pleasure. It's been a driving force my whole life. So he is probably safe, LOL.
> 
> Mostly, he just needs to be into it. I almost never receive oral anymore, for example. He rarely tries anything new, or wants anything different. And he seems to put as little effort in as possible.
> 
> If he could just be a little more interested, I could probably deal pretty well. But as it is, I feel like I do everything, and I'm getting tired of it.


You need to tell him this. Doesn't have to mean, you can even try to make it a game if you want. Again sex isn't a one way activity. If it is both of you are doing something wrong. If you were teammates in a sport you would constantly be communicating and trying to perfect your craft. See it like a QB and a receiver. They practice every day. See it as a jazz band, they practice and experiment.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@sokillme and @badsanta, it seems to me you are both missing the point, so I'll ask again:

If you are already giving everything you have, then what more is left to give? Is it so terrible to ask for just one thing in return?

Yes, I think Lila's husband needs to deal with his anxiety. But how long does she have to prop him up and keep focusing on his gratification and his reassurance before she gets to say, you know what, I have needs too. And since she has made it clear that he CANNOT bring her to orgasm, do you really think she should put more pressure on him, adding to his anxiety?

If we are all responsible for our own orgasms, then isn't Lila's and my husbands also responsible for their own? Yet both of us have one thing in common. We have put a ton of effort into making their orgasms happen for them, and in some ways against all odds. We take responsibility for their orgasms all the time.

But you want to say we should be doing more? Without having any expectations in return because it might make him feel anxious? WTF?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wild jade said:


> @sokillme and @badsanta, it seems to me you are both missing the point, so I'll ask again:
> 
> If you are already giving everything you have, then what more is left to give? Is it so terrible to ask for just one thing in return?
> 
> But you want to say we should be doing more? Without having any expectations in return because it might make him feel anxious? WTF?


In my opinion, Lila was not asking for just one thing in return. She was just saying, "OK THIS is now YOUR responsibility to make an effort to fix it!" Perhaps that actually is a healthy thing to do if she realizes that perhaps her efforts to help are the source of the anxiety AND she has to make an honest loving effort to back off. If that is WHAT SHE IS DOING, all I am saying is that she also needs to communicate to her husband that it is hard for her to back off because she still wants to help, but understands that he may need more space to help take more responsibility. 

OR, she may just be frustrated and saying, "I'm done, here you fix it!" But I think she explained that is not the case. 

In addition to this, I also think someone or both are not being completely honest with themselves and there is an unknown element causing anxiety. It could be a career frustration, lack of personal development, hidden kinks, or an unwillingness to accept the changes within that occur with age. Regardless of what it is, each needs to embrace/love who they are and not allow the other person to ridicule it. That parts takes courage and self confidence to show that to a partner. And YES, self confidence is ALSO something one gives to the other partner so that a spouse can learn to love them for simply being who they are. That is not a moment you look towards with lack of understanding and a WTF attitude, it is the foundation of self development. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Huh. Well, I cannot speak for Lila, but my impression was that she was very much embracing and accepting of herself, and recognizing her strengths and limitations. 

And my impression was that he wanted her to back off and leave him alone. And that any form of pressure makes him feel inadequate, more anxious, and that he wants to decide for himself what he will and will not do.

So I'm left wondering why she gets grief for basically saying, alright then, this is where I'm coming from, ball is now in your court. 

In my case, my husband just prefers the head in the sand approach. Nothing is wrong, nothing to see here, no need for any conversations. 

You can talk to me all day about vulnerability but I cannot change who he is or what he cares about. And I don't quite see how I even could be more vulnerable, except perhaps to just keep giving and giving until I am ground into dust. Surely that is not what you are recommending?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@badsanta, I was thinking more about what you've said here, and would like to ask my question in a more pointed way.

You've focused on vulnerability and acceptance as the key to intimacy, and yet are advising Lila to change. Why does she have to change to accept him as he is, but not vice versa?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Feeling good about yourself isn't a reason to have sex, it's a byproduct of sex. After sex we feel loved and accosted and content and happy.

But when sex doesn't work the way we want it to or expect it to, those all important byproducts aren't happening and instead we can walk away feeling used, rejected, and even incompetent.

Wild Jades husband isn't showing her any passion for her. He isn't interested in her pleasure. That alone is enough to stop desiring your partner and only focus on getting your own pleasure. Wild Jades sex life has turned into catch as catch can and every man for himself. She seeks her own pleasure because he husband doesn't seek her pleasure. Meanwhile it seems her husband has a long history of not being very enthusiastic about her pleasure, so she has resorted to taking a page out of his own playbook.

Lila's husband, otoh is avoiding sex in order to avoid ED in order to avoid anxiety. This makes her feel undesired and unloved. When they do have sex and he isn't able to keep an erection Lila feels like a failure because she hasn't been able to elicit his response. 

The answer for both is the same.

"This is what I need from you. Can you do this?"


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Feeling good about yourself isn't a reason to have sex, it's a byproduct of sex. After sex we feel loved and accosted and content and happy.
> 
> But when sex doesn't work the way we want it to or expect it to, those all important byproducts aren't happening and instead we can walk away feeling used, rejected, and even incompetent.
> 
> ...


Love it, @Anon Pink! If only it were that easy.

I asked my husband if he could do this for me, and not only did he say he could, he said he was already doing it, and I was left scratching my head about how our experiences could be so very different. I thought I might be able to inspire him by pulling out all of the stops and making our sex life the very most it could be. Nothing changed, and I think he got even less inclined to put anything in himself. .

I'm typing this out because I know Lila's husband has been reading this thread, and I want him to realize that there isn't just a glorious gravy train where you get to sit back and have your needs and whims catered to while your partner does all of the work.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Feeling good about yourself isn't a reason to have sex, it's a byproduct of sex. After sex we feel loved and accosted and content and happy.
> 
> But when sex doesn't work the way we want it to or expect it to, those all important byproducts aren't happening and instead we can walk away feeling used, rejected, and even incompetent.
> 
> ...


Wild Jade makes sense as long as she has communicated that to him. If he isn't willing to work on it I am all for holding back, makes sense. 

However that is not at all what Lila said, to paraphrase. "Sex is no longer be about my self-esteem so I don't care about it anymore." This over all attitude is not different then Wild Jade's husbands. I understand waiting until he gets his **** together. Though I think a better idea would be to switch it all to her pleasure. 

Bottom line, this is still not a healthy attitude to have about sex. Both ways of thinking "I have Sex for my self-esteem, and I don't have sex because it is no longer about my self-esteem" are still all about her. Sex is supposed to be about both. I really thing this attitude has contributed to there troubles. I would personally start to resent someone who felt that way about having sex with me.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I'm knee deep in a fubar at work so can't respond to the posts in more detail (will do so later when I go home), but I did want to address several comments that stood out to me.



badsanta said:


> [MENTION=252353]What else is there left to give? For each partner to demonstrate how much they love each other and *SHARE those feelings with the other person, REGARDLESS or not if those feeling are reciprocated.*


You seem to be advocating for unconditional love which I am strictly opposed to doing. I'll elaborate on this thought tonight.



sokillme said:


> Him giving her orgasm is as much if not more her responsibility as his. Sounds like she isn't willing to really work on that, she just has accepted defeat.


My orgasms are my responsibility and always have been. He hasn't really been able to 'give' them (by that I mean where I'm not in there helping in some way, shape, or form) in 21 years together, and it's not because of a lack of trying on his part. It's how I'm built and has nothing to do with him or his technique. I don't hold this against him. 

He and I both accepted my physiology and that this was the way it was going to be a very long time ago. Sometimes, it's best to accept your partner as they are and enjoy what they have to give. I'm sure we'd have divorced a long time ago if he had insisted on 'fixing' me.



badsanta said:


> In my opinion, Lila was not asking for just one thing in return. She was just saying, "OK THIS is now YOUR responsibility to make an effort to fix it!" Perhaps that actually is a healthy thing to do if she realizes that perhaps her efforts to help are the source of the anxiety AND she has to make an honest loving effort to back off.


All I'm saying is that I no longer have a dog in this fight. If he wants to fix it, then great! If he doesn't want to fix it, then great! I'm not making this my end all, be all because frankly my focus of what's really important in the relationship has shifted. 

Understanding the underlying reasons for seeking out sex has completely changed how I view my needs in the relationship. Sex is no longer at the top of my relationship priorities. Would I continue to enjoy it with my husband? Sure but I have other, more important needs that he must make an effort to meet. Basic His Needs, Her Needs stuff.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Wild Jade makes sense as long as she has communicated that to him. If he isn't willing to work on it I am all for holding back, makes sense.
> 
> However that is not at all what Lila said, to paraphrase. "Sex is no longer be about my self-esteem so I don't care about it anymore." This over all attitude is not different then Wild Jade's husbands. I understand waiting until he gets his **** together. Though I think a better idea would be to switch it all to her pleasure.
> 
> Bottom line, this is still not a healthy attitude to have about sex. Both ways of thinking "I have Sex for my self-esteem, and I don't have sex because it is no longer about my self-esteem" are still all about her. *Sex is supposed to be about both.* I really thing this attitude has contributed to there troubles. I would personally start to resent someone who felt that way about having sex with me.


Who says sex is supposed to be about both people? How do you explain the people, mostly men, who make sex a requirement for the marriage?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> You seem to be advocating for unconditional love which I am strictly opposed to doing. I'll elaborate on this thought tonight.


Now you are getting somewhere, but I do not think "unconditional love" is the correct term. It is more likely that you are unwilling to compromise your integrity OR his for that matter in an effort to push your problems in the relationship forwards. 

I was actually advocating for vulnerability. Vulnerability is not about compromising integrity, but more the exact opposite. Let us say that your entire marriage you have given up eating spicy foods because your husband does not like them. Embracing vulnerability would be making it known to your partner that you now intend to eat spicy foods and that you now want their help to do it regardless of how they feel about this or you will be happy doing it on your own. BUT WAIT... that seems selfish? How is that a loving thing to do?...

It is not because others can not love you if you do not first love yourself. Others can not love you if you are not being yourself. 

Many times that leads to pushing each other apart for a while in order to focus on yourself and begin redefining how the dynamics of the relationship will work moving forwards. 

In therapy the following physical analogy might be used. Stand as a couple with your feet together and lock hands. If one person looses their balance, both can easily fall. Now if each person steps away from the other, locking hands will force you to lean in and begin supporting each other. The further each others feet get away, the stronger the couple will push towards one another to prevent from falling. With the feet far apart, balance no longer becomes an issue because the couple is now pushed together by their distance from one another. 

In a relationship, our individual differences (even those one partner might object to) are what push a couple together and make the relationship strong. 

So let us say that Lila wanted her husband to start cooking with spice in the kitchen. While he may not like it and he does not have to eat it, he will finally begin to learn how to really love and care for his wife. Odds are that doing this would push him to discover something NEW about himself as well. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> Who says sex is supposed to be about both people? How do you explain the people, mostly men, who make sex a requirement for the marriage?


Requirement yes but If the sex is only about himself and not about "us", then he is selfish. The partner has every right to balk at that deal as long as they state that this attitude needs to be fixed. 

Sex should be as much, giving yourself and being completely physically intimate with the person as it should be about orgasm, at least some of the time. I think being purely about orgasm some of the time is fine, but over all it should be about "us".

It should be like anything else you do for your spouse. If you cook for them do you only do it for them to like your cooking, or do you do it for lots of reasons. If you make yourself emotionally available for them do you only do it because it makes you feel good or do you do it because this is what you need. My point is the healthy way to think about all of this stuff is Marriage first then me personally.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Now you are getting somewhere, but I do not think "unconditional love" is the correct term. It is more likely that you are unwilling to compromise your integrity OR his for that matter in an effort to push your problems in the relationship forwards.
> 
> I was actually advocating for vulnerability. Vulnerability is not about compromising integrity, but more the exact opposite. Let us say that your entire marriage you have given up eating spicy foods because your husband does not like them. Embracing vulnerability would be making it known to your partner that you now intend to eat spicy foods and that you now want their help to do it regardless of how they feel about this or you will be happy doing it on your own. BUT WAIT... that seems selfish? How is that a loving thing to do?...
> 
> ...


This analogy makes sense to a point. It stops making sense when one spouse is hurting the other. Like say if one spouse is allergic to chocolate, if the other spouse says well now all I am going to do is eat chocolate then time to move on. So care must be given to what you are asking for when you do this.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Huh. Well, I cannot speak for Lila, but my impression was that she was very much embracing and accepting of herself, and recognizing her strengths and limitations.
> 
> And my impression was that he wanted her to back off and leave him alone. And that any form of pressure makes him feel inadequate, more anxious, and that he wants to decide for himself what he will and will not do.
> 
> ...





wild jade said:


> You've focused on vulnerability and acceptance as the key to intimacy, and yet are advising Lila to change. *Why does she have to change to accept him as he is, but not vice versa?*


 @wild jade, you ask the same questions I was wondering about. 

I've purposely left a lot of detail about my relationship with H out of this thread on purpose but, generally speaking, my husband as an opportunist. He's a 'give an inch, take a mile' type of person. The ultimate goal is to take back some of the mileage I've given up in the past BUT I will be completely happy just keeping what little ground I have left to stand on.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> [MENTION=252353]As opposed to coming to the table with a simple desire to receive gratification, an important example might be for Lila's husband to define exactly what it is that is causing his anxiety and trust that she will help him in a loving way to confront it. Because he is still having anxiety means that he has YET to really confront whatever this is. Perhaps he thinks he has conveyed it to her, but when you fully confront something you are usually able to become free of your anxiety. Hopefully this is the direction that they are moving in...
> 
> *...intimacy is not all about giving/receiving gratification, it is way more about vulnerability* and being brave enough to lean into it while letting go of the fear that those around you may or may not love you once you reveal your true self. Once you are married to someone for a long time and have kids, it is easy to become overprotective and start hiding parts of yourself that you feel the other person will object to or has objected to in the past. By doing this a person starts to deny who they really are. Then the risk of an emotional or physical affair becomes high as individuals are free to be themselves with someone they have absolutely no fear of loosing.
> 
> ...


I think what you state above is great advice for the partner suffering from the sexual dysfunction. In my case, I think it would do my husband a world of good to read it and address those issues he feels need addressing, whether it's with me or something else all together.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I asked my husband if he could do this for me, and not only did he say he could, he said he was already doing it.


Why wasn't your response. "um I don't feel that way."


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Love it, @Anon Pink! If only it were that easy.
> 
> I asked my husband if he could do this for me, and not only did he say he could, he said he was already doing it, and I was left scratching my head about how our experiences could be so very different. * I thought I might be able to inspire him by pulling out all of the stops and making our sex life the very most it could be. Nothing changed, and I think he got even less inclined to put anything in himself. .*
> 
> ...


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Now you are getting somewhere, but I do not think "unconditional love" is the correct term. It is more likely that you are unwilling to compromise your integrity OR his for that matter in an effort to push your problems in the relationship forwards.
> 
> I was actually advocating for vulnerability. Vulnerability is not about compromising integrity, but more the exact opposite. Let us say that your entire marriage you have given up eating spicy foods because your husband does not like them. Embracing vulnerability would be making it known to your partner that you now intend to eat spicy foods and that you now want their help to do it regardless of how they feel about this or you will be happy doing it on your own. BUT WAIT... that seems selfish? How is that a loving thing to do?...
> 
> ...





sokillme said:


> *This analogy makes sense to a point. It stops making sense when one spouse is hurting the other. Like say if one spouse is allergic to chocolate, if the other spouse says well now all I am going to do is eat chocolate then time to move on. So care must be given to what you are asking for when you do this.*


 @sokillme I do NOT think you can hurt others by learning to love yourself! 

Perhaps there are situations where one person wants to maintain an unfair amount of control over the other's emotions, and generally someone who loves themselves can not easily be controlled or harmed by others around them. 

If we were married you loved chocolate and I forbid you to eat it because I have an allergy, that should be recognized as me trying to control you. If you want to eat chocolate then eat it. If I am allergic to it, I should simply ask you to brush your teeth before we kiss. 

It even applies to peanut allergies. All you have to do is wash your hands and face, and brush your teeth and it should be safe to kiss. However since peanut allergies are known to be very severe, this is the ONE thing that partners are usually willing to give up for the other. So unless one person was the sole heir and pedigreed peanut farmer, I doubt anyone defines who they are by a handful of peanuts. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> @sokillme I do NOT think you can hurt others by learning to love yourself!
> 
> Perhaps there are situations where one person wants to maintain an unfair amount of control over the other's emotions, and generally someone who loves themselves can not easily be controlled or harmed by others around them.
> 
> ...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

badsanta said:


> @sokillme I do NOT think you can hurt others by learning to love yourself!
> 
> Perhaps there are situations where one person wants to maintain an unfair amount of control over the other's emotions, and generally someone who loves themselves can not easily be controlled or harmed by others around them.
> 
> ...


Guy: I need to have sex with a lot of woman to love myself. 
Woman rightly: Um no.

Woman: I need to talk to this guy because he makes me feel good about myself
Guy: Um no.

50 year in debt guy: I am buying this boat because I love myself.
Spouse: Um no. 

Guy: I am hanging out with my friends for the 5th night in a row because I love myself
Spouse: Um no. 

I could go on and on. Too much loving of ones self is called narcissism.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Lila said:


> I need Quality Time. I have communicated this clearly.


My wife's main love language is quality time. I used think she was "high maintenance". Nice , right. It took me a few years reshape that into she doesn't do so well if I don't pay enough attention to her therefore I really need to make sure I pay enough attention to her. Saying her LL is quality time is much easier. I have since banished the phase "high maintenance" from my vocabulary. 

I always suggest this to others (and maybe to you years ago) who crave more quality time, but have always gotten shot down, can you cook together, at least occasionally? That is how we get most of our quality time, 30 minute meals often take 90 to prepare. In recent years the photography has just added to it for us. FTR, we don't have kids.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Wild Jade makes sense as long as she has communicated that to him. If he isn't willing to work on it I am all for holding back, makes sense.
> 
> However that is not at all what Lila said, to paraphrase. "Sex is no longer be about my self-esteem so I don't care about it anymore." This over all attitude is not different then Wild Jade's husbands. I understand waiting until he gets his **** together. Though I think a better idea would be to switch it all to her pleasure.
> 
> Bottom line, this is still not a healthy attitude to have about sex. Both ways of thinking "I have Sex for my self-esteem, and I don't have sex because it is no longer about my self-esteem" are still all about her. * Sex is supposed to be about both.* I really thing this attitude has contributed to there troubles. I would personally start to resent someone who felt that way about having sex with me.


Is it? Because the longer I live, the more I think that sex isn't very mutual at all. Just two separate people getting off on each other.

I must be jaded.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Why wasn't your response. "um I don't feel that way."


It was.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Feeling good about yourself isn't a reason to have sex, it's a byproduct of sex. After sex we feel loved and accosted and content and happy.
> 
> But when sex doesn't work the way we want it to or expect it to, those all important byproducts aren't happening and instead we can walk away feeling used, rejected, and even incompetent.


This makes sense and explains a lot of my feelings towards sex. 



Anon Pink said:


> Wild Jades husband isn't showing her any passion for her. He isn't interested in her pleasure. That alone is enough to stop desiring your partner and only focus on getting your own pleasure. Wild Jades sex life has turned into catch as catch can and every man for himself. She seeks her own pleasure because he husband doesn't seek her pleasure. Meanwhile it seems her husband has a long history of not being very enthusiastic about her pleasure, so she has resorted to taking a page out of his own playbook.
> 
> Lila's husband, otoh is avoiding sex in order to avoid ED in order to avoid anxiety. This makes her feel undesired and unloved. When they do have sex and he isn't able to keep an erection Lila feels like a failure because she hasn't been able to elicit his response.
> 
> ...


Could you elaborate on your comment? I don't understand what you mean by "the answer".


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> You seem to be advocating for unconditional love which I am strictly opposed to doing. I'll elaborate on this thought tonight.


I agree, FWIW. No way is love unconditional.

My husband and I had a conversation about this last night, and we both agree that there are lots and lots of things that can disrupt or even end love.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I agree, FWIW. No way is love unconditional.
> 
> My husband and I had a conversation about this last night, and we both agree that there are lots and lots of things that can disrupt or destroy love.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Guy: I need to have sex with a lot of woman to love myself.
> Woman rightly: Um no.
> 
> Woman: I need to talk to this guy because he makes me feel good about myself
> ...



It works more like this:

Guy: I've always wanted to follow career (A = armed forces) but my dad made me follow career (B = realtor). I'm going to give up my job and follow my dreams.
Spouse: Um no! 
Guy: I'm going to do it anyway.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

badsanta said:


> It works more like this:
> 
> Guy: I've always wanted to follow career (A = armed forces) but my dad made me follow career (B = realtor). I'm going to give up my job and follow my dreams.
> Spouse: Um no!
> Guy: I'm going to do it anyway.


That is not marriage, at least not a good one.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

What? Spouses can't say no to each other without it being labeled a bad marriage? Harsh.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Lila said:


> This makes sense and explains a lot of my feelings towards sex.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you elaborate on your comment? I don't understand what you mean by "the answer".


What you used to get from sex is no longer happening, right? You used to feel validated because you could turn your husband on so well. You felt validated as a sexy, sensual, hot woman who makes her husband crazy to get inside her. But not anymore. With his ED you're not seeing him crazy passionate. You're not seeing how your efforts for him work. They're not working. Now sex leaves you feeling useless. Not only are you not getting validation, you're left feeling bad about yourself. It's a compounded negative response. No validation AND feeling like you've done something wrong or you don't measure up.

So what you need from your husband are other ways he can give you that validation. When his penis is uncooperative, he needs to recognize that HIS feelings aren't the only ones being negatively impacted. He needs to be more vocal and verbal about how sexy you are, how much he wants to be inside of you, how maddening it is to have a beautiful sexy woman right in front of him and not be able to get inside of her.

Is that too hard for a man with ED? Hell no. Does a man with ED recognize that his uncooperative penis is also impacting his wife? I doubt it because a man is usually to wrapped up in his own anxiety to think about his wife's feelings. "It's not you." Is NOT validation!

So you explain all this to your husband and say this is what I need from you now that we're going to be dealing with ED for a while. You need my support and encouragement and I'm happy to provide it, but I also need your help because not having sex at all, or having uncooperative sex makes me feel lousy about myself.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Does a man with ED recognize that his uncooperative penis is also impacting his wife?


Hell yes, at least for me. Which really didn't help matters short term, even more pressure. Longer term my thinking was fix this or set her free.



Anon Pink said:


> So you explain all this to your husband and say this is what I need from you now that we're going to be dealing with ED for a while. You need my support and encouragement and I'm happy to provide it, but I also need your help because not having sex at all, or having uncooperative sex makes me feel lousy about myself.


And this is where I wish cunnilingus was a good option for Lila. We only got comfortable with and good at it after 15+ years. It was unrelated to ED but the timing of learning this valuable life skill (as I like to call it) was helpful.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> What you used to get from sex is no longer happening, right? You used to feel validated because you could turn your husband on so well. You felt validated as a sexy, sensual, hot woman who makes her husband crazy to get inside her. But not anymore. With his ED you're not seeing him crazy passionate. You're not seeing how your efforts for him work. They're not working. Now sex leaves you feeling useless. Not only are you not getting validation, you're left feeling bad about yourself. It's a compounded negative response. No validation AND feeling like you've done something wrong or you don't measure up.
> 
> So what you need from your husband are other ways he can give you that validation. When his penis is uncooperative, he needs to recognize that HIS feelings aren't the only ones being negatively impacted. He needs to be more vocal and verbal about how sexy you are, how much he wants to be inside of you, how maddening it is to have a beautiful sexy woman right in front of him and not be able to get inside of her.


This is very similar to the dynamic when a man cannot bring his partner to orgasm. He feels like he is doing it wrong and he doesn't measure up. He needs validation from his wife that she finds him attractive and sexy.

But I fear, in many cases, there isn't really anything the person with uncoooperative response can say that is truly validating to their partner. There are only so many times you can say "it is OK, stop trying, we'll do something else" before it rings hollow. I can remember being with women who after 30 minutes or an hour of performing manual or oral would say "it is OK, it is not you, I never orgasm with a partner, you can stop trying and just get yourself off". They meant it to be reassuring but it never felt that way.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> What you used to get from sex is no longer happening, right? You used to feel validated because you could turn your husband on so well. You felt validated as a sexy, sensual, hot woman who makes her husband crazy to get inside her. But not anymore. With his ED you're not seeing him crazy passionate. You're not seeing how your efforts for him work. They're not working. Now sex leaves you feeling useless. Not only are you not getting validation, you're left feeling bad about yourself. It's a compounded negative response. No validation AND feeling like you've done something wrong or you don't measure up.
> 
> So what you need from your husband are other ways he can give you that validation. When his penis is uncooperative, he needs to recognize that HIS feelings aren't the only ones being negatively impacted. *He needs to be more vocal and verbal about how sexy you are, how much he wants to be inside of you, how maddening it is to have a beautiful sexy woman right in front of him and not be able to get inside of her.*


YES!!!! This^^^! Just reading the bolded gave me a shot of endorphins, LOL. 



Anon Pink said:


> Is that too hard for a man with ED? Hell no. Does a man with ED recognize that his uncooperative penis is also impacting his wife? I doubt it because a man is usually to wrapped up in his own anxiety to think about his wife's feelings. *"It's not you." Is NOT validation!*


I could be content living the entire rest of my life without hear "it's not you" ever again. 




Anon Pink said:


> So you explain all this to your husband and say this is what I need from you now that we're going to be dealing with ED for a while. You need my support and encouragement and I'm happy to provide it, but I also need your help because not having sex at all, or having uncooperative sex makes me feel lousy about myself.


I've had similar conversations with H in the past but I think it's only now just starting to sink in. I'm not sure what's changed but he is taking a more proactive approach. Whether it's a permanent change is anyone's guess.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

@Lila I am going to give you my pearls of wisdom from my years of experience in dealing with non-responsive people that need a fire under their ass to keep things moving along. 

Start using non-responsiveness as your preferred indication of choice for decisions to be made. It is as simple as saying I am going to proceed with doing this, let me know if you object? Then when there is no response, it is an indication that a formal decision has been made. 

I use this all the time to get things done, and it actually WORKS!

An example of a text you might send him, "I'm going to order you a vibrating cøck ring that attaches to my hitachi, let me know if you do not want to try that?" Then when you get no response for a reasonable amount of time, he has now agreed to let you hook up your Hitachi to his cøck whenever you want!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Hell yes, at least for me. Which really didn't help matters short term, even more pressure. Longer term my thinking was fix this or set her free.


You're not alone. My h has shared with me similar thoughts. He's still dead set on fixing it where I'm more at the 'let's just cope with it' stage. 




CharlieParker said:


> And this is where I wish cunnilingus was a good option for Lila. .


You and me both, LOL. Maybe it'll happen in the future but I'm not going to stress about it.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> @Lila I am going to give you my pearls of wisdom from my years of experience in dealing with non-responsive people that need a fire under their ass to keep things moving along.
> 
> Start using non-responsiveness as your preferred indication of choice for decisions to be made. It is as simple as saying I am going to proceed with doing this, let me know if you object? Then when there is no response, it is an indication that a formal decision has been made.
> 
> ...




LOL, how do you think I got my _very _nice luxury vehicle? :grin2:

But in all seriousness, and in all honesty, I find the fact I have to be the one to 'lead that charge' a huge turn off. Passiveness is not sexy.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Passivity in a man is definitely a turn off!

I wish I could fault men for not charging to the doctor and trying everything to rid themselves of ED. But women are just as reluctant to figure out why they can't orgasm. Not referring to you Lila because you can orgasm.

Sex is complicated and when it doesn't work the way we want it to it's really hard to over come the defensiveness that comes as a result. If our knee started to give out, if we got dizzy spells, if our digestion wasn't working right, we don't feel defensive about it. But when our sex doesn't work right, we want to ignore it and hope it goes away.

We need to change that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> This is very similar to the dynamic when a man cannot bring his partner to orgasm. He feels like he is doing it wrong and he doesn't measure up. He needs validation from his wife that she finds him attractive and sexy.
> 
> But I fear, in many cases, there isn't really anything the person with uncoooperative response can say that is truly validating to their partner. There are only so many times you can say "it is OK, stop trying, we'll do something else" before it rings hollow. I can remember being with women who after 30 minutes or an hour of performing manual or oral would say "it is OK, it is not you, I never orgasm with a partner, you can stop trying and just get yourself off". They meant it to be reassuring but it never felt that way.



I completely understand how that would make you feel inadequate. there is a lot more that goes into a woman's orgasm than technique, or even her feelings for her partner. 

I'll have to ask my husband if he feels inadaquate those few times my O just isn't going to happen.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I'll have to ask my husband if he feels inadaquate those few times my O just isn't going to happen.


If she tries and just can't get there occasionally that's OK, if she just says "stop, not happening". Pulling away in a rapid herky jerky motion bugs me but it's not inadequacy.

Not sure if I mentioned here, sorry if repeating, our v2.0 script was foreplay, she got hers (oral or manual) and then me. It killed me if it went, foreplay and then she declined to try. That was ice water for me. Now we often turn the order around, he cums first. That took a while to get used to too


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> LOL, how do you think I got my _very _nice luxury vehicle? :grin2:
> 
> But in all seriousness, and in all honesty, I find the fact I have to be the one to 'lead that charge' a huge turn off. Passiveness is not sexy.


WELL THEN :grin2: ...(let me see here)....

OK, here is a move from my wife's playbook on how she gets me motivated when I start dragging my ass and I am not pleasing her. I am not going to outline her move as I don't fully understand it, but our dialog goes something like this:

MRS: How much do you think we could get for our house?
MR: I do not know, why do you want to refinance something?
MRS: I can't seem to be happy living here, I want to move closer to the beach. Here look at this house on Zillow (that is twice as expensive as ours), would't you and the kids love a swimming pool like that?
MR: (gulp)
MRS: (poker face)
MR: Are you serious about this?
MRS: I already spoke to the realtor and we are pre-approved to buy a house this nice contingent on our house selling for at least $xxx which she says she can do!"
MR: Do you know what that would do to our retirement to start all over on a mortgage?
MRS: Well if we stay here, things need to change!
MR: Like what? (....and at this point I always seem very motivated!!!)

That seems to be her goto move! Works every time.

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> If she tries and just can't get there occasionally that's OK, if she just says "stop, not happening". Pulling away in a rapid herky jerky motion bugs me but it's not inadequacy.
> 
> Not sure if I mentioned here, sorry if repeating, our v2.0 script was foreplay, she got hers (oral or manual) and then me. It killed me if it went, foreplay and then she declined to try. That was ice water for me. Now we often turn the order around, *he cums first*. That took a while to get used to too


That's been our script for about 10 years now and before that it was 'try to get it to happen at the same time' which we were pretty successful doing. As strange as this sounds, it would seem awkward for me to go first. I guess that goes to show that each couple's script is unique.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> That's been our script for about 10 years now and before that it was 'try to get it to happen at the same time' which we were pretty successful doing. As strange as this sounds, it would seem awkward for me to go first. I guess that goes to show that each couple's script is unique.


As for couples scripts being unique, once my wife discovered she is multi orgasmic it sometimes works like this. She goes first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, last, and then one more. All I have to do is hang on and manage to try to hit one of those targets so that we can have one together. Now as horrible as it sounds, that is like being at a shooting range with an entire wall full of targets and all I have to do is hit ONE, JUST ONE, and _I'll still freaking miss_!!!!!!! 

Afterwards my wife will complain and tell me I need to be better, but at least she smile and tells me to cheer up by saying, "how many wives have seven or more orgasms and still complain to their husbands!"
_
I think I am bragging, but honestly my wife has me so confused, I really don't know..._ 

Badsanta


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I've had similar conversations with H in the past but I think it's only now just starting to sink in. I'm not sure what's changed but he is taking a more proactive approach. Whether it's a permanent change is anyone's guess.


I was thinking the latest turn (you no longer need sex and H not pursuing T-Therapy) was a clear turn for the worse.

I can't for the life of me figure out how a guy could blow-off setting up a once a month date with his W when he knows how important it is to her.

That's what leads me to believe that he really, truly didn't know how important this (and many other things) was to you (hard to believe as that might be). 

You say that he's a great guy. Being given an inch yet taking a mile is inconsistent with being a great guy. That has me thinking that maybe he thinks he's being given miles?

Now that you're not seeking sex, I guess that's one less problem to work on and the quote above seems to indicate that he *might* actually be paying attention at last.

I hope so.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If you have any conversation about a complaint more than once or twice, subsequent "talks" are meaningless. No matter how emphatic the tone. If they didn't change after the first or second time you requested something, they clearly view your words as hollow or meaningless. If you REALLY wanted what you are asking for, you would penalize them when they refuse to comply. If all you do is continue to complain, it obviously isn't that important to you. At that point, only only a change in YOUR behavior is going to get them to change theirs.

Lila changed her behavior. Maybe now her H will take her words seriously.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I was thinking the latest turn (you no longer need sex and H not pursuing T-Therapy) was a clear turn for the worse.
> 
> That's what leads me to believe that he really, truly didn't know how important this (and many other things) was to you (hard to believe as that might be).


To be completely honest, I have absolutely no idea why things are improving. Nothing I've done recently has been to get a response. Quite the opposite. I've been trying to understand, and fix, my responses to him. Maybe he's worried that all of my introspection is ruining a good thing for him? Don't know. 



Buddy400 said:


> I can't for the life of me figure out how a guy could blow-off setting up a once a month date with his W when he knows how important it is to her.


People generally do what brings them joy and avoid what brings them pain or distress. So my theory is that he blows off the date night because either social settings make him anxious or spending time with me makes him anxious. Either way, I'm not forcing him to do something he doesn't want to do. I have great gfs who are in the same boat and who like going out and socializing. 




Buddy400 said:


> You say that he's a great guy. Being given an inch yet taking a mile is inconsistent with being a great guy. That has me thinking that maybe he thinks he's being given miles?
> 
> Now that you're not seeking sex, I guess that's one less problem to work on and the quote above seems to indicate that he *might* actually be paying attention at last.
> 
> I hope so.


It's possible I was giving waaay too much. I have cut back on several things I was doing that were going under appreciated. Not deliberate, just an introspection thing. Maybe he's realizing he's losing a good thing and it can get much, much worse? I don't know.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> If you have any conversation about a complaint more than once or twice, subsequent "talks" are meaningless. No matter how emphatic the tone. *If they didn't change after the first or second time you requested something, they clearly view your words as hollow or meaningless. * If you REALLY wanted what you are asking for, you would penalize them when they refuse to comply. If all you do is continue to complain, it obviously isn't that important to you. At that point, only only a change in YOUR behavior is going to get them to change theirs.
> 
> Lila changed her behavior. Maybe now her H will take her words seriously.


QFT. I am learning that what you say about repeating oneself is spot on. I can't for the life of me figure out what I'm doing that's causing him to do what he's doing but it's surely not repeating myself.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> You say that he's a great guy. Being given an inch yet taking a mile is inconsistent with being a great guy. That has me thinking that maybe he thinks he's being given miles?


Buddy, something happened last night that illustrates my description of my husband as a give an inch, take a mile. I have a career but I do ALL of the housekeeping, ALL of the laundry, ALL of the dishes, and 50% of the cooking (he now cooks the other half of the time but doesn't clean a single dish). His ONLY responsibility is to empty out the kitchen trash can as needed - usually after I make note that it needs emptying. 

So last night I'm preparing dinner and I say "Can you take out the garbage?" (we were having a discussion and it was just something that I added into our conversation in a nice, conversational tone of voice). His response was "Ask me nicely". :surprise: He has but one chore and he wants me to say 'please do it'. Yep, give a inch, take a mile.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Buddy, something happened last night that illustrates my description of my husband as a give an inch, take a mile. I have a career but I do ALL of the housekeeping, ALL of the laundry, ALL of the dishes, and 50% of the cooking (he now cooks the other half of the time but doesn't clean a single dish). His ONLY responsibility is to empty out the kitchen trash can as needed - usually after I make note that it needs emptying.
> 
> So last night I'm preparing dinner and I say "Can you take out the garbage?" (we were having a discussion and it was just something that I added into our conversation in a nice, conversational tone of voice). His response was "Ask me nicely". :surprise: He has but one chore and he wants me to say 'please do it'. Yep, give a inch, take a mile.


Wow. He has a real problem with being told what to do (even though it wasn't being told). He's protecting his ego.

I would have exploded on his a$$!

Something like "I do all the laundry and all the housekeeping and you don't need to ask ME nicely!" 

Are you *sure *he's a great guy?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> If you have any conversation about a complaint more than once or twice, subsequent "talks" are meaningless. No matter how emphatic the tone. If they didn't change after the first or second time you requested something, they clearly view your words as hollow or meaningless. If you REALLY wanted what you are asking for, you would penalize them when they refuse to comply. If all you do is continue to complain, it obviously isn't that important to you.


The above is a *very* important insight.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> So last night I'm preparing dinner and I say "Can you take out the garbage?" (we were having a discussion and it was just something that I added into our conversation in a nice, conversational tone of voice). * His response was "Ask me nicely". * He has but one chore and he wants me to say 'please do it'. Yep, give a inch, take a mile.


WTF!

I know he just didn't!
@Lila I have already thought of over 100 passive aggressive responses to that one. My favorite one would be to reply that you were unaware that you have some Chinese man named Mr. Mee Miogo that takes out the garbage!"

:grin2: :grin2: :grin2: :grin2: :grin2: :grin2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> WTF!
> 
> I know he just didn't!
> 
> ...





Buddy400 said:


> Wow. He has a real problem with being told what to do (even though it wasn't being told). He's protecting his ego.
> 
> *I would have exploded on his a$$!*
> 
> Something like "I do all the laundry and all the housekeeping and you don't need to ask ME nicely!"


LOL, I could lie and say that I stood my ground, but the reality was I relented and said "please take out the trash".



badsanta said:


> Are you *sure *he's a great guy?


He's generally a good guy. He does many things for me without being asked but they are things he chooses to do because he wants to or they make sense to him. We've made some progress in other areas. Maybe it'll roll over into stuff like this.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> LOL, I could lie and say that I stood my ground, but the reality was I relented and said "please take out the trash".
> 
> 
> 
> He's generally a good guy. He does many things for me without being asked but they are things *he chooses to do because he wants to or they make sense to him. * We've made some progress in other areas. Maybe it'll roll over into stuff like this.


OK, wait a minute. I admit I failed to take into account that taking out the trash can get complicated these days, especially if your husband is unsure about whether or not you actually rinsed that crumpled up aluminum foil from the lasagna last night.










While the poster says "it is easy," unless you were the one throwing things away when you cleaned up, it can be really frustrating and complex. So with regards to him, taking out the garbage may not make much sense unless he was the one that originally handled all the garbage.

:grin2:

Badsanta


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> Buddy, something happened last night that illustrates my description of my husband as a give an inch, take a mile. I have a career but I do ALL of the housekeeping, ALL of the laundry, ALL of the dishes, and 50% of the cooking (he now cooks the other half of the time but doesn't clean a single dish). His ONLY responsibility is to empty out the kitchen trash can as needed - usually after I make note that it needs emptying.
> 
> So last night I'm preparing dinner and I say "Can you take out the garbage?" (we were having a discussion and it was just something that I added into our conversation in a nice, conversational tone of voice). His response was "Ask me nicely". :surprise: He has but one chore and he wants me to say 'please do it'. Yep, give a inch, take a mile.



Pretty please take out the trash because I really don't want to have to slice off your testicles. <bats eyelashes>


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So @Lila now that a small amount of time has passed and you have delegated the full responsibility of improving the quality of your marital sex life to your husband, how has that been working out for you?

Has he admitted to you yet that he has been sneaking out of the house to violate your trust by going to Taco Bell for a sack full of soft tacos and binge watching the Walking Dead without you while you snore away in the bed like a zombie? Has he admitted to you yet that your sleep apnea sometimes make you sound like you are trying to attack and eat his brains in the middle of the night? ...cause stuff like that can gradually start causing some problems if you know what I mean!



Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> So @Lila now that a small amount of time has passed and you have delegated the full responsibility of improving the quality of your marital sex life to your husband, how has that been working out for you?
> 
> Has he admitted to you yet that he has been sneaking out of the house to violate your trust by going to Taco Bell for a sack full of soft tacos and binge watching the Walking Dead without you while you snore away in the bed like a zombie? Has he admitted to you yet that your sleep apnea sometimes make you sound like you are trying to attack and eat his brains in the middle of the night? ...cause stuff like that can gradually start causing some problems if you know what I mean!
> 
> ...


LOL, B.S.. You have a crazy imagination.

Nothing really to report. The bloodwork results from the urologist visit arrived in the mail yesterday. His total T was 511 ng/dl, free t 0.10 ng/mL, bioavailability was 2.25 ng/mL. SCHB was 39.1. All well within normal limits. 

He's been more open to talking in general, which is nice. 

For my part, I haven't brought up the topic of sex except in passing (like when telling him about the dominance thread yesterday). Nothing specific to us. It's nice to have the calm feelings again. 

I did request the Passionate Marriage from the library and will be reading it as soon as my branch has it available. 

Aside from that it's been really quiet around here.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Badsanta tips on how to make a man crazy Cream his jeans*

_DISCLAIMER:I have not yet attempted this on myself, although I think I might give it a try one day_

If you go to your local pharmacy, you will notice in the section alongside condoms and lubricants that you will find arousal gels designed to "enhance" a woman's sexual experience. ...well instead let's use these on him! Next time you are doing his laundry, rub some of this into his underwear in the crotch area and allow it to dry. Soften the fabric to make sure there is not a crunchy spot in his underwear. When he wears the underwear, his natural body moisture will reactivate the gel and it will begin to goto work on him to improve his blood flow and make him a little extra sensitive. 

If you are unsure how much to use, start with just a little and gradually increase the amounts when folding laundry until you start getting the results you want! 

Good luck!

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Reading David Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage. So far all I can say about the book is that it has too.many.words.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

wild jade said:


> What? Spouses can't say no to each other without it being labeled a bad marriage? Harsh.


Is this directed at me?

I am saying when your spouse says no and you do it anyway, that is not a good marriage. 

Marriage is about compromise.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> Reading David Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage. So far all I can say about the book is that it has too.many.words.


If English is not your first language as you may have mentioned before it can be a tough read, particularly the "different differences of differentiation" even makes my head spin. 

How far are you into it?

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Reading David Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage. So far all I can say about the book is that it has too.many.words.
> ...


I'm on chapter 4. Chapter 3 and 4 were quick reads. Chapters 1 and 2 were like slugging through mud. I think it's how he's structured those 2 chapters in particular. He gives the example (case study), then explains the concept. 

To me, differentiation is a fancy word for integrity and genuineness. Essentially, be true to yourself. Am I off?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> I'm on chapter 4. Chapter 3 and 4 were quick reads. Chapters 1 and 2 were like slugging through mud. I think it's how he's structured those 2 chapters in particular. He gives the example (case study), then explains the concept.
> 
> *To me, differentiation is a fancy word for integrity and genuineness. Essentially, be true to yourself. Am I off?*


Sounds about right. I think it refers more about one's ability to maintain their individuality even when consumed by a relationship. Not exactly the same as being true to yourself, but learning how to develop as an individual apart from that of your partner. 

A good example would be you and your husband start out working together in the kitchen all day side by side everyday and this continues for years. Both of you start out with the exact same talent for cooking which is fun, but as things progress you each loose your individuality by working so close together for so long. Improving differentiation would be like your husband learning to become a talented butcher and you striving to become a talented chef. He can now provide you with choice cuts of meat you have never before had access to, and you can create new dishes out of what he gives you. Now together you have become more talented than you would be as individuals, and when the meal is served, each persons individuality is very well preserved and conveyed. 

In this example, going through this process of improving differentiation would never occur had the two of you never spent so much time together in the kitchen. 

Now apply that mentality to your sexuality. What is he good at, and what are you good at. How can you strive to develop on those things individually in a way that improves that quality of life for the two of you in the bedroom?

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Sounds about right. I think it refers more about one's ability to maintain their individuality even when consumed by a relationship. Not exactly the same as being true to yourself, but learning how to develop as an individual apart from that of your partner.
> 
> A good example would be you and your husband start out working together in the kitchen all day side by side everyday and this continues for years. Both of you start out with the exact same talent for cooking which is fun, but as things progress you each loose your individuality by working so close together for so long. Improving differentiation would be like your husband learning to become a talented butcher and you striving to become a talented chef. He can now provide you with choice cuts of meat you have never before had access to, and you can create new dishes out of what he gives you. Now together you have become more talented than you would be as individuals, and when the meal is served, each persons individuality is very well preserved and conveyed.
> 
> In this example, going through this process of improving differentiation would never occur had the two of you never spent so much time together in the kitchen.


Your example makes sense, more so than the examples Schnarch uses in the book.



badsanta said:


> Now apply that mentality to your sexuality. What is he good at, and what are you good at. How can you strive to develop on those things individually in a way that improves that quality of life for the two of you in the bedroom?
> 
> Badsanta


These are good questions. I'm not sure I have answers though. 

Interestingly, reading the book, Schnarch describes how self validating sex is not genuine. I'm now asking if I in fact like it at all?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Now apply that mentality to your sexuality. What is he good at, and what are you good at. How can you strive to develop on those things individually in a way that improves that quality of life for the two of you in the bedroom?





Lila said:


> These are good questions. I'm not sure I have answers though.


If I were to answer that question based on the sexuality in my own marriage, I would answer as follows... I'm good at being creative in the bedroom, while my wife is good at developing my ideas in a way to exquisitely mess with my head and demonstrate her prowess. For example I really enjoy tease and denial, and she really enjoys making me fail horribly at that!

Badsanta


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## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

He should go and see a male health specialist. He would most likely be able to fix the problem. Also free testosterone and total only gives partly the answer. I assume you meant SHBG and not SCHB (?). Having said that, Total T is 500, which may or may not be good. 

He would probably have full function back after doing ICP, unless he has other medical issues.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> badsanta said:
> 
> 
> > Now apply that mentality to your sexuality. What is he good at, and what are you good at. How can you strive to develop on those things individually in a way that improves that quality of life for the two of you in the bedroom?
> ...


Is this something I can determine from a whole relationship POV rather than sex specifically? I ask because the sex isn't happening right now and I don't think that's going to improve. We went from 6-8 xs per month to 1x this month...and H is much happier than I've seen him in a really long time.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Lila said:


> and H is much happier than I've seen him in a really long time.


And you?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> If I were to answer that question based on the sexuality in my own marriage, I would answer as follows... I'm good at being creative in the bedroom, while my wife is good at developing my ideas in a way to exquisitely mess with my head and demonstrate her prowess. For example I really enjoy tease and denial, and she really enjoys making me fail horribly at that!
> 
> Badsanta


So....from a sex POV?

That's a really interesting question though. What does each spouse contribute to the sexual climate they've created? Are they happy with that climate? Do they each feel empowered to define, for themselves, what makes them happy?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Schnarch describes how self validating sex is not genuine. I'm now asking if I in fact like it at all?





Lila said:


> I ask because the sex isn't happening right now and I don't think that's going to improve. We went from 6-8 xs per month to 1x this month...and H is much happier than I've seen him in a really long time.


Mmmm... neither of you want sex and everybody's happier.

A nice change from the previous level of conflict, but probably not a good sign for the long term. :frown2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > and H is much happier than I've seen him in a really long time.
> ...


My impulsive response is no but that's an impulsive self validation driven response. When I look beyond it, then the answer is Yes. H IS working really hard to make me a priority. He's trying to fix the underlying issues.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> the answer is Yes. H IS working really hard to make me a priority. He's trying to fix the underlying issues.


Good news!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Schnarch describes how self validating sex is not genuine. I'm now asking if I in fact like it at all?
> ...


If both partners are on the same page, why wouldn't it be a good sign for the long term? I'm genuinely curious.

This is why I asked badsanta if the questions can be asked for the relationship in general and not specifically of the sexual component.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> My impulsive response is no but that's an impulsive self validation driven response. *When I look beyond it, then the answer is Yes. H IS working really hard to make me a priority. He's trying to fix the underlying issues.*


*In my opinion this is what is important!* Your husband working to make you a priority. 

Theoretically the sexuality in your marriage should begin to evolve and reemerge, but you will have to nurture it along step by step. You may even go through a period of times with sex where less is more, meaning that the quality of sex may dramatically improve, but you two are together sexually less often. 

So back to the question of what you each contribute in the bedroom... From your thread it sounds as if he is eager to please you and you are eager to please him, but due to problems with ED it is no longer working out as it has in the past. In reality your husband may be struggling with a slight loss of physical sensitivity that comes with age and he has not yet learned how to replace that with mental stimulation (which is far more powerful than physical touch). Also you will have to learn how to engage him sexually from a mental point of view that provides him a great deal of pleasure. 

*QUESTION: *How often do the two of you carry on a conversation that would be considered highly erotic for your husband? Do you talk dirty to him during the act of sex? Are you comfortable describing your lady parts and what sensations you are experiencing in a very explicit manner with him? 

Your next step in sexual validation with each other may be learning how to be mentally engaged with each other during sex. 

When I am with my wife and something starts to hit the spot, HOLY COW, not only will she let me know, but she will also turn her verbal communication into a focal point of our love making. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> If both partners are on the same page, why wouldn't it be a good sign for the long term? I'm genuinely curious.
> 
> This is why I asked badsanta if the questions can be asked for the relationship in general and not specifically of the sexual component.


*Yes*, they are generally applied to the relationship as a whole and THEN those skills translate into the bedroom. I think however it is possible to step back and look at thing just in the bedroom and ask the same questions. Usually sexuality is complex, thrives on backwards psychology, and is about being somewhat nefariously playful with one another. So you have to nurture that and never stop being creative with it. 

AFTER ALL sometimes healing in the relationship STARTS in the bedroom. Now always, but sometimes!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> If I were to answer that question based on the sexuality in my own marriage, I would answer as follows... I'm good at being creative in the bedroom, while my wife is good at developing my ideas in a way to exquisitely mess with my head and demonstrate her prowess. For example I really enjoy tease and denial, and she really enjoys making me fail horribly at that!
> 
> Badsanta





Anon Pink said:


> So....from a sex POV?
> 
> That's a really interesting question though. What does each spouse contribute to the sexual climate they've created? Are they happy with that climate? Do they each feel empowered to define, for themselves, what makes them happy?


I think on many occasions, my wife has avidly defined that she really enjoys me exploring her sexuality, BUT at the same time under no circumstances will I tell ever her what she can and can't do! While I have the power of creativity, she enjoys using my ideas against me to prove at the end of the day that she has ALL the power.

Interestingly enough, that is how all the other areas of our relationship play out as well!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> If both partners are on the same page, why wouldn't it be a good sign for the long term? I'm genuinely curious.


I just don't think that a marriage in which there is not much sex is going to be a very good marriage, even if both partners claim to be happy with it. 

But this is in the long term. At the moment you've got bigger problems to work on. Taking sex off the table for a while might help in solving those.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *In my opinion this is what is important!* Your husband working to make you a priority.
> 
> Theoretically the sexuality in your marriage should begin to evolve and reemerge, but *you will have to nurture it along step by step*. You may even go through a period of times with sex where less is more, meaning that the quality of sex may dramatically improve, but you two are together sexually less often.
> 
> ...


The more I read, the more I think we've reached our 'happy' place.

Nurturing the sexuality should be something people who actually _want_ a sexual relationship need to do. 

For my part, I was never eager to please my husband unconditionally. The validation I got from having sex made me eager to please him. That's now gone and so is my desire for sex.

For my husband's part, his actions state he doesn't _want_ to have sex; cuddling makes him happy. 

So is there reason for me to nurture something that neither of us really wants? This questions keeps running through my head on a loop. 



badsanta said:


> In reality your husband may be struggling with a slight loss of physical sensitivity that comes with age and he has not yet learned how to replace that with mental stimulation (which is far more powerful than physical touch). Also *you will have to learn how to engage him sexually from a mental point of view that provides him a great deal of pleasure.*


This is depressing to read. Even if I wasn't questioning every little detail about the person I thought I was versus who I really am, I'm not a dominant lover at heart and the thought of being the one responsible for the success of our sexual relationship would be a huge turnoff. 



badsanta said:


> *QUESTION: *How often do the two of you carry on a conversation that would be considered highly erotic for your husband? Do you talk dirty to him during the act of sex? Are you comfortable describing your lady parts and what sensations you are experiencing in a very explicit manner with him?


We don't do well with talking, dirty or otherwise, during sex. As in all other parts of a his life, he's a man of few words and I lose focus very easily. Honestly, the few times I've tried to describe things, I've lost my mojo. 



badsanta said:


> Your next step in *sexual validation with each other* may be learning how to be mentally engaged with each other during sex.


Didn't Schnarch specifically state that seeking sexual validation from another person is bound to back fire eventually? Isn't that the whole point of differentitation?



badsanta said:


> When I am with my wife and something starts to hit the spot, HOLY COW, not only will she let me know, but she will also turn her verbal communication into a focal point of our love making.
> 
> Badsanta


I was already jealous of your wife's ability to have multiple orgasms. I'm now green with envy over her ability to talk through them without losing her focus. :surprise: She's a sex machine :smile2::wink2:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> We don't do well with talking, dirty or otherwise, during sex. As in all other parts of a his life, he's a man of few words and I lose focus very easily. Honestly, the few times I've tried to describe things, I've lost my mojo.
> 
> Didn't Schnarch specifically state that seeking sexual validation from another person is bound to back fire eventually? Isn't that the whole point of differentitation?


It can be very validating to learn how to really communicate with your spouse sexually. Generally speaking learning to communicate with each other should be a positive thing and I can see no downsides.

The fact you might loose focus while trying to communicate during sex seems problematic. This is not to be confused with questions that result from a lack of confidence (Like gently asking if your legs are comfortable twisted behind your neck that way), as yes that will make anyone loose their mojo. 

An example of sexual communication might be to tell you husband to stop thrusting, and explain that you are going to stimulate him solely by contracting you PC muscles (as if doing kegels) for a while. Ask him to explain to you what he feels while you are doing this and what about it he likes if ever wants more where those came from. Then each time as you squeeze you watch his face and enjoy his reaction. 

What is going on here with this example... First of all less friction on the penis can actually provide more stimulation if your husband has been getting a little numb from overstimulation. Motionless intercourse will send his mind into overdrive as he learns to enjoy new sensations. His verbal feedback to you will likely be encouraging for you. Your communications to him are not about domination, but more about being confident. Your husband will actually look to you to make sure it is OK for him to enjoy what it is you are doing for him. If you are seductive enough with your instructions and your body language to convey to him that he can let himself go with you, then the two of you will be accomplishing some serious communication. Give it a try. Surprise him by applying ample coconut oil to yourself before beginning this so that there is no friction! 

Cheers,
Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@badsanta, I'm thinking about having this thread closed (there's no sense in beating the dead horse that is my marriage). The only reason I'm hesitating is that I find the discussion on Schnarch's Passionate Marriage a great one. Would you participate if I started a thread about it? The book has lots of information, some I agree with, some not so much.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Again, thank you, some good info on this thread. I'll look into the book, although I think I'm booked out.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> @badsanta, I'm thinking about having this thread closed (there's no sense in beating the dead horse that is my marriage). The only reason I'm hesitating is that I find the discussion on Schnarch's Passionate Marriage a great one. Would you participate if I started a thread about it? The book has lots of information, some I agree with, some not so much.


Sure! I'm a slow reader, so I am still making my way through the book, but I'll catch up with you!

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Thanks to everyone who posted their experiences on this thread and those who offered their knowledge. Regardless of whether my marriage survives or not, your words of wisdom will serve me well in the future.


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