# When is it a good time to do "nice"?



## Undertheradar

Briefly,

My wife of 15 yrs had anEA with a very feminin male co worker. Her justification, was that he was more like a "girlfriend", and it should not have bothered me.
I felt 16,000 txts over a 3 month period did a lot of damage to our relationship, regardless of who it was.

Anyway, I split them up, she wanted out. She used every excuse imaginable as a reason to "be on her own".

After I started my 180, I actually agreed to give her her fredom, she made a U-turn.

Now she wants to work things out. She feels that "her place" is with me and the children, and she misses being a wife and mother.
She's claiming that her unhappiness stemmed from ME controlling her EA, and not allowing her to do as she pleases. She felt there was noting wrng in her actions, and she resented me for breaking up.

She supposedly is now past it, and wants to get along.

***I DON'T BELIEVE HER***

..... But I have to go along with this.
She's been nice. (hard to put a guage on her because she's PMS'ing)

I'm wondering if it's possible that someone could actually come to realizing that they may have used poor judgement.
I don't feel my wife loves me. She says she does, but I'm not "feeling it" from her. It's almost a gratuitous " I love you".

Now, I too, am just going throught the motions. I'm afreaid to go near her. I don't want to cross over into a "normal pattern", because I don't THINK she's being sincere.

She told me she wants to stay, and that she's no longer confused.

*How does one forget that their spouse even considered leaving?*

*So here's my Question.....
At what point does a man in my position, consider it a good time to start doing the little things that would make a normal woman in a normal situation happy?*

Little things....
Maybe a bouquet of flowers to let her know that I'm happy she's here, and working it out.
While that sounds nice to me, I wonder if I'd look like a total fool?

Maybe suggesting a bike ride together?
I like that stuff, and we've done it in the past.

At what point should I expect it OK to be physical?
(I'm deathly apprehensive about even thinking about physical)


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## 2xloser

Great question, UTR... I'll be watching to see board responses, because I surely don't know! Especially with being physical... what mixed message does it send? Or is it OK, fulfilling a basic need that both have while at least showing you're trying....? Quite a dilemma.

MY response is "as soon as you feel like you truly do believe her sincerity, and see her efforts (real and not forced) -- and not until you've got both." 

Too soon is definitely a weakness sign that you don't want.


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## magnoliagal

Ok so I didn't have an EA but I was not a nice wife. Hubby pulled away in response. It's been 2 months since I've done my 180 and he's just recently began to respond in return. However I've gone above and beyond to prove to him that I'm sincere (which I am).

I agree that you should wait until you feel she is sincere. Too soon and she learns she can way too easily win you back.


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## Jellybeans

Is the EA completely over? Because just the other day you posted about her saying she was totally done and wanted out.


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## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> Is the EA completely over? Because just the other day you posted about her saying she was totally done and wanted out.


Yes, she did say she was done with our marriage about two weeks ago. At that point, I would normally question her intentions, I decided to show her the door, and agree that maybe she was right.

Along the way, I had the opportunity to meet up with the EA and her, and get a feel for these two bozo's. What I got from them, is that they both acted like two little kids.
He is 30 years old, lives with mom, and likes Lady Gaga, and Katy Perry. My wife, thought he was the best friend of a lifetime, and had many laughs with him. (many to do about co workers).
The damage here was my own suspicions (how can you blame me), after 20 hours of text marathons per day.
She really felt that I smothered her, and felt that I had no right stepping in as I did.

I sat both of them down last week, and told them I didn't have a problem with their friendship. I decided to use reverse phsycology here, and see how far they go. The kid was very apologetic, and assured me that he would never disrespect me, and he never crossed any lines with my wife. He said they were friends, and he respects her and me.
I decided to go long with it.

My wife liked the way I handled this, and decided to "forgive me" for breaking them up. (I guess she'll never see it from my side).
It was at that point, where she felt that she should come back.

Now please don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm playing this out for "better or worse".


I don't want to resist anything at this time....
She wants out, I let her go.
She wants in, .... well now what?


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## Jellybeans

She needs to show you through actions she's actually committed. 

Needs to earn your trust back.

Get MC at minimum.


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## turnera

Have you requested the passwords to her computer and phone? Did she give it to you?

Are you attending marriage counseling together?

If not, you're wasting your time.


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## AFEH

Undertheradar said:


> Yes, she did say she was done with our marriage about two weeks ago. At that point, I would normally question her intentions, I decided to show her the door, and agree that maybe she was right.
> 
> Along the way, I had the opportunity to meet up with the EA and her, and get a feel for these two bozo's. What I got from them, is that they both acted like two little kids.
> He is 30 years old, lives with mom, and likes Lady Gaga, and Katy Perry. My wife, thought he was the best friend of a lifetime, and had many laughs with him. (many to do about co workers).
> The damage here was my own suspicions (how can you blame me), after 20 hours of text marathons per day.
> She really felt that I smothered her, and felt that I had no right stepping in as I did.
> 
> I sat both of them down last week, and told them I didn't have a problem with their friendship. I decided to use reverse phsycology here, and see how far they go. The kid was very apologetic, and assured me that he would never disrespect me, and he never crossed any lines with my wife. He said they were friends, and he respects her and me.
> I decided to go long with it.
> 
> My wife liked the way I handled this, and decided to "forgive me" for breaking them up. (I guess she'll never see it from my side).
> It was at that point, where she felt that she should come back.
> 
> Now please don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm playing this out for "better or worse".
> 
> 
> I don't want to resist anything at this time....
> She wants out, I let her go.
> She wants in, .... well now what?


Do you really think of your wife as a "bozo"? Can't see your relationship has much of a future if that's what you truly think of her.

Bob


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## Undertheradar

AFEH said:


> Do you really think of your wife as a "bozo"? Can't see your relationship has much of a future if that's what you truly think of her.
> 
> Bob


Please allow me.....

When your wife, (or significant other) feels the need to entertain, and be entertained by someone else, while your out there supporting your family, YES, they acted like clowns!

My wife had an EA with someone, for what she calls "entertainment", and nothing more. He made her laugh, they called each other silly names, and he amused her, with his references to how much he enjoyed foreign objects in places we don't want to go.
ME (not knowing much of this), had every reason to suspect much more.

There's so much more to this, and the amount of verbal and mental abuse that my wife put me through over the past 4 months, is something I have to try to put behind me.

So yes, I do consider them clowns. And I am still very angry at her behavior.

Clowns don't take much serious. Spending 20hrs a day texting to an EA is very serious, regardless of the nature of the texts.


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## Jellybeans

If she claims her affair was for "entertainment" pursposes, you have way bigger issues to deal with.


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## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> If she claims her affair was for "entertainment" pursposes, you have way bigger issues to deal with.


Yes, you're right. She said that she thought he was "funny", nothing more. He made her laugh. He told funny jokes.
She said she never felt "threatened" by him, because she knew he was not "into women", as she put it.

Looking back, I can tell you that these types of emotional interests are very damaging, in ways that most don't realize.

Last night, after the kids went to sleep, I asked my wife to take a ride with me. It was spontaneous, and she had no idea where we were going.
I decided to go for some hot wings and a beer. It was our first "alone time" together in almost 4 months!

All I can say... Is THAT was not the same woman I've known for 16 years!
Her sense of humor changed. Her jokes changes. She did not act like the woman she was, but instead, I felt like I was with a child. ... YES, this funny little kid rubbed off on her!!

On the bright side.... She had a few laughs, and we loosened up a bit.

I have my hands full, no doubt.


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## turnera

Is she proving No Contact to you?


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Is she proving No Contact to you?


Absolutely.

It played itself out.

In summary.....
I confronted him.
She hated me for confronting him.
He ran for his life.
She seems to be getting over it.

FWIW.... Last night she passed a comment. I chose to take it in.

Last Quotes from my wife:

"How the "ef did I allow myself to get so torn from my family"?

Another quote: "It was pretty silly of me, wasn't it?"

Final quote " I got caught up in the whole "work thing", and the freedom away from home life and kids".

I didn't say a word. Only acknowledged her statements.

In her mind, she made a "friend" 
In my mind, she forgot she had a husband and family.


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## turnera

That's not what I asked. How is she proving No Contact to you? Did you ask for and receive the passwords to her phone and computer? Are you checking them periodically? Is she letting you know where she goes, for the time being? Are you in talks to get a good marriage counselor?

You have not resolved this yet, and it behooves you to verify for at least the next few months. People who get high on the PEAs of the affair go through withdrawal once it's pulled from them, and they VERY OFTEN fall off the wagon and reconnect.

If she's truly remorseful, she will have no problem providing you with her passwords and letting you know where she goes.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> That's not what I asked. How is she proving No Contact to you? Did you ask for and receive the passwords to her phone and computer? Are you checking them periodically? Is she letting you know where she goes, for the time being? Are you in talks to get a good marriage counselor?
> 
> You have not resolved this yet, and it behooves you to verify for at least the next few months. People who get high on the PEAs of the affair go through withdrawal once it's pulled from them, and they VERY OFTEN fall off the wagon and reconnect.
> 
> If she's truly remorseful, she will have no problem providing you with her passwords and letting you know where she goes.


Sorry, I didn't understand the question.

Yes, the phone is open at any time. 
Yes, PC has no password, and even FB is open, if I want to see it. 
Yes, last night, we both agreed to seek out a counselor to help get through any post issues from what happened the past few months.
She acknowledged wrong doing ( in her own words), and wants to prove that it's behind her.

Yes, I'm leary. But I'll go with the flow at this point.
I really don't have a choice.
Unless, of course, I want to end my marriage.


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## 2xloser

Nicely done all the way around, Sir. 
I sincerely hope it works out for you.


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## turnera

Sounds hopeful.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Sounds hopeful.



For today....

I have a feeling, she will "turn on a dime".

I don't know why I feel that way, call it a gut feeling. But experience in life tells me that it's very hard to change your mind, when it's a matter of the heart.
My wife very well could be saying all the right things, to avoid confrontation.

So far, the last few days, I have not seen a wife that's really bent on having a great marriage.
I honestly feel as if she couldn't give a sh*t.

I'll just go with it .... for now.


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## turnera

Try to remember that women take a LONG time to change feelings, and to trust. I'm talking months. Nothing is going to change for her overnight or even over a few weeks. It just won't. We aren't wired that way.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Try to remember that women take a LONG time to change feelings, and to trust. I'm talking months. Nothing is going to change for her overnight or even over a few weeks. It just won't. We aren't wired that way.


Thank you.
I need to be reminded of this.

This was a very bad situation for me. She had an EA, yet feels as if I victimized her.

She's still bitter, and it comes out, every so often.

Just last night, she reminded me that I never used to call her during the day. I told that was not true.We used to speak frequently, while I was working.

What she forgot, is that she stopped speking to me for months, because she was exchanging over 16, 000 texts over a three month period.
She forgot she had a partner in life, and chose her EA instead.


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## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> Just last night, she reminded me that I never used to call her during the day. I told that was not true.We used to speak frequently, while I was working.


Okay I'm totally against the EA but since you are trying to work this out I'll give you a tip. 

You will get farther with her if you don't get defensive. Respond to the feeling she's trying to express. "That must have made you feel neglected huh?" Or "I'm sorry" Or even just a loving nod saying "uh huh and what else bothered you?" When a woman is trying to communicate that is not the time to debate details. Just listen.


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## turnera

Yes!


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Okay I'm totally against the EA but since you are trying to work this out I'll give you a tip.
> 
> You will get farther with her if you don't get defensive. Respond to the feeling she's trying to express. "That must have made you feel neglected huh?" Or "I'm sorry" Or even just a loving nod saying "uh huh and what else bothered you?" When a woman is trying to communicate that is not the time to debate details. Just listen.


Ok, I understand what you're saying. ... But isn't that just yessing her, on a negative feeling? I'm not arguing with you or her. 
If my wife suddenly forgot that I called her for years, wouldn't it make sense to remind her? Why let her live in her delusional world, that was created by he EA?

I'll take your advice, and your approach. I honestly hate to even talk about it to her. I want to forget it.

On a Brighter note......
Last night I suggested we go for a walk. It was a beautiful night here in NY. We had the kids, and we just let them run around. 
After a few minutes into our walk, she said she'd like me to put my arm around her, ......." like I used to do". .. Needless to say, it was nice to see her "let me in"
I feel that was a huge step in the right direction.
What I've learned from the woman here at TAM, is the women seem to like to " make the first move" in these situations. 

That's why I asked when is the right time to do " nice".
I learned that if the woman isn't ready, nice means nothing. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

No, it's not yessing her. 

It is VALIDATING.

Validating is one of the KEY things that spouses have to learn how to do, when fixing marriages. You two start out together, hopefully, friends who share everything. Along the way, little teeny tiny 'upsets' teach each of you to stop communicating, stop sharing your feelings. Maybe you say you were mad at the cop who gave you a ticket, and she says 'well, you probably deserved it, didn't you?' Instantly, you think (but don't share) 'Hmmm, she doesn't have my back. That's that last time I go to HER for support.' And you stop sharing. And she loses further opportunities to support you. 

She experiences similar things wth you. And you two slowly stop communicating, and start losing opportunities to be on the same side. It starts to look like you're on the OPPOSITE sides. Eventually, you aren't sharing ANYTHING.

Validating is a first step in reconnecting, letting the other person know that you CARE how they're feeling. Not your job to find a solution for them. IS your job to support them. 

That's what listening looks like.


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## turnera

Radar, have you read the book His Needs Her Needs? I highly recommend that you read it this weekend. It's an easy book to get through, and the components may make a LOT of sense for you.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> No, it's not yessing her.
> 
> It is VALIDATING.
> 
> Validating is one of the KEY things that spouses have to learn how to do, when fixing marriages. You two start out together, hopefully, friends who share everything. Along the way, little teeny tiny 'upsets' teach each of you to stop communicating, stop sharing your feelings. Maybe you say you were mad at the cop who gave you a ticket, and she says 'well, you probably deserved it, didn't you?' Instantly, you think (but don't share) 'Hmmm, she doesn't have my back. That's that last time I go to HER for support.' And you stop sharing. And she loses further opportunities to support you.
> 
> She experiences similar things wth you. And you two slowly stop communicating, and start losing opportunities to be on the same side. It starts to look like you're on the OPPOSITE sides. Eventually, you aren't sharing ANYTHING.
> 
> Validating is a first step in reconnecting, letting the other person know that you CARE how they're feeling. Not your job to find a solution for them. IS your job to support them.
> 
> That's what listening looks like.



Understood.

Looking back, I'd say that that has been my biggest downfall. I always did have a tendency to "say my part", without validating what she might be feeling.

OK, this is easy. I'm a fairly smart guy, with strong values, and respect for my wife and family.
A few changes don't scare me, and if they result in a lifetime of happiness, then I'm all in 

Even though I indicated that my wife could turn on a dime, I may have to take that back, and open my mind to being more optimistic.
This morning, I woke up to breakfast, and the nicest hugs and kisses from my wife in 6 months.
I giggled it off, and asked her if she was still sleeping 
She told me, she woke up this morning feeling really good about ME, and that she loves me.
( I really can't ask for much more at this point)

I see that she's moving really fast, and most people would say Whoa!.... She was leaving 2 weeks ago. I agree.
Like I've been saying all along, I need to go with the flow on this one.

To put a positive spin on the whole situation....

Maybe in my case, the EA was a good thing. It opened MY eyes to how I may not have been giving my wife the attention she required. 
I also think my wife will also see that she doesn't have to go outside our marriage for emotional fulfillment. 
We have a beautiful family. 
I'd like to keep it that way.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Radar, have you read the book His Needs Her Needs? I highly recommend that you read it this weekend. It's an easy book to get through, and the components may make a LOT of sense for you.


Looking it up in a few minutes.
I have a free weekend. I'll be sitting on the beach, reading the book later today.

Thanks


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## magnoliagal

Turnera said it right it isn't yessing it's validation. You don't have to agree with whatever crazy, innacurate thing she says you just need to validate it. Lets say your wife is having a bad day and she starts venting. Says some crazy stuff about how bad her life is and starts making sweeping negative statements. If you correct her what she hears is her feelings don't matter and you aren't even listening. But if you just "duck and dodge" by validating, affirming, asking more questions she will feel heard and within MINUTES the bad feeling will pass. Women feel better by talking and being heard. We are wired differently than men. Men feel better by fixing things. Women generally don't need to be fixed they need to be validated.

My husband is the worlds worst at trying to fix me so what I have to do is prepare him ahead of time. I'll tell him before I start talking that I just need to vent and there is no reason for him to find a solution or to defend. That relaxes him and he knows he can just listen without coming up with his defense or a solution.


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## 2xloser

Maybe I can learn something here from you; thanks.
I'm far too reluctant to make any first move. Hesitant to even accept her first moves... somewhere in this forum I remember reading about a man bragging afterwards that his several years of affair were well worth it, as he was basically 'forgiven' in a couple weeks. Probably not the best quote to ring in my head.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Turnera said it right it isn't yessing it's validation. You don't have to agree with whatever crazy, innacurate thing she says you just need to validate it. Lets say your wife is having a bad day and she starts venting. Says some crazy stuff about how bad her life is and starts making sweeping negative statements. If you correct her what she hears is her feelings don't matter and you aren't even listening. But if you just "duck and dodge" by validating, affirming, asking more questions she will feel heard and within MINUTES the bad feeling will pass. Women feel better by talking and being heard. We are wired differently than men. Men feel better by fixing things. Women generally don't need to be fixed they need to be validated.
> 
> My husband is the worlds worst at trying to fix me so what I have to do is prepare him ahead of time. I'll tell him before I start talking that I just need to vent and there is no reason for him to find a solution or to defend. That relaxes him and he knows he can just listen without coming up with his defense or a solution.


Before you answer the question below, I'll answer my own question... I have NO INTENTION of discussing the EA anymore with her. It's over and done.

However, there may be a time, when she brings stuff up... such as....

How do I react when she says that her 3 month EA of over 16,000 texts, was because "I wasn't around", and had nothing else to do with anything else?
She's validating her EA, and blaming me for it.
I was always there. That's just not the truth.


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## turnera

That's when you hold her accountable. Ask back questions where you know she has no defense. Use logic! It's always hard to dispute.

"Please explain to me what you mean by I wasn't around. I'm having a hard time understanding it, because I slept in the house every night, I ate all the meals with you, we watched the same shows. In what way was I not around?"

Then sit back and let her explain. And you validate, all over again! 

And then, ask another question. 

"So, if you mean I wasn't there because you were afraid to talk to me, how did that happen? Did I bark at you once or something so you felt unsafe to talk to me? Help me understand your perception."

Notice that there is no DEFENDING yourself in there, which will only make her defend HER self. 

Be on the same side. By diffusing all her arguments, she will find herself bereft of ANY arguments. And then she'll have to see you for what you are, without all the baggage she's built up in her head about you.


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## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> How do I react when she says that her 3 month EA of over 16,000 texts, was because "I wasn't around", and had nothing else to do with anything else?
> She's validating her EA, and blaming me for it.
> I was always there. That's just not the truth.


You could also try parroting it back to her in a nonthreatening way. "So what you are saying is it's ALL my fault?" Or "so what you are saying is when you have needs instead of asking me it's okay for you to go elsewhere". Or "It sounds like you are blaming me for your EA. Are you?"

Tone is important here. Your heart has to be in the right place before you say these things. 

See here is what I think is going on. I suspect she is trying to get your attention abeit in a negative way. She keeps bringing up the EA because she wants you to be jealous, attentive, to fight for her, to be heard, something. By making direct statements, parroting and asking questions you can take her hits "duck and dodge" and once she's felt heard she will likely quit bringing it up. I think she's trying to drive home a point that you weren't giving her the attention she craved and until you truly hear her she is going to keep on keepin on.

Are you in MC?


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## Undertheradar

LOL.. This is funny.
I gave both responses 

She "claims" that I was doing "other things"... Such as watching tv, playing with the kids, on the computer, or anywhere elsewhere in the house, besides being next to her.

Slice it anyway you want, she feels fully justified with her EA.

We're together 16 yrs, and all of a sudden, my absence from the same room, justified 16k txts in three months. 

She'll occasionally throw the EA in my face as my fault.

My latest response ( a couple days ago)..... The subject came up again.... This time, I decided to tell her that is she feels that what went on was normal, that's OK. I told her that one day, she'll look back and realize how different it may have been in my eyes.

I'm actually still in slight 180 mode, and now I'm in FULL 180 mode on the subject.
I'd rather forget it, and see what happens.


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## turnera

Maybe you just need to leave.


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## magnoliagal

Agree with above. If she thinks its justified maybe you should leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Agree with above. If she thinks its justified maybe you should leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, I never expected this response from the two of you.
Matter of fact, I'm quite disappointed that you would draw that conclusion, because someone feels their actions are justified.
Aren't ALL our actions justified, when we do them?

So I should storm out the door, leave my wife and children, because my wife felt that she had an excuse for an EA?

I don't think so.
It have more faith than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2xloser

I don't think leaving is the answer right now.
But I also don't think you can "just forget it and see what happens".
There's work to be done, for you to healwith a bit of closure, her to take accountability, and the two of you to prevent it in the future and grow forward together. The foundation is there, I think, but it's got big giant cracks that have got to be addressed. Not in the future, but now. 
I don't know if you're in MC or not, but it feels like exactly the stuff that would get addressed in sessions (and btw I am one of those guys who always said I'd never go discuss my personal life with a stranger who knows nothign about who I am...)


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## Conrad

Undertheradar said:


> Wow, I never expected this response from the two of you.
> Matter of fact, I'm quite disappointed that you would draw that conclusion, because someone feels their actions are justified.
> Aren't ALL our actions justified, when we do them?
> 
> So I should storm out the door, leave my wife and children, because my wife felt that she had an excuse for an EA?
> 
> I don't think so.
> It have more faith than that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why?


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## magnoliagal

Just because people can justify their actions doesn't mean squat.

Lets say...

My husband hits me but says it's because I didn't give him enough attention.

He cheats on me because he says he is incapable of staying faithful.

He yells at and belittles my kids because he says it's discipline.

He has an EA with a coworker because I was busy with work and kids.

Sure you can justify anything but that doesn't make it okay. Can't you see that?

Bottom line is there is NO excuse for cheating. EVER. And the part where your wife doesn't see that is a huge monumental problem.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Just because people can justify their actions doesn't mean squat.
> 
> Lets say...
> 
> My husband hits me but says it's because I didn't give him enough attention.
> 
> He cheats on me because he says he is incapable of staying faithful.
> 
> He yells at and belittles my kids because he says it's discipline.
> 
> He has an EA with a coworker because I was busy with work and kids.
> 
> Sure you can justify anything but that doesn't make it okay. Can't you see that?
> 
> Bottom line is there is NO excuse for cheating. EVER. And the part where your wife doesn't see that is a huge monumental problem.


I realize it wasn't OK, Yes I do see that. But I'm not seeing the severity here to leave.

OK, let's forget cheating, hitting, yelling for a sec. None of that stuff played a role here.

Basically, what you're saying is that an EA is an automatic "out"?
Don't you think that maybe people sometimes give themselves excuses for what they do, and maybe, they need to come to their senses?
Maybe I'm being too forgiving, but a text buddy, doesn't qualify for walking out, in this case. I think she used poor judgement.

Could I be a bit too naive? Maybe, I am.


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## Conrad

Undertheradar said:


> I realize it wasn't OK, Yes I do see that. But I'm not seeing the severity here to leave.
> 
> OK, let's forget cheating, hitting, yelling for a sec. None of that stuff played a role here.
> 
> Basically, what you're saying is that an EA is an automatic "out"?
> Don't you think that maybe people sometimes give themselves excuses for what they do, and maybe, they need to come to their senses?
> Maybe I'm being too forgiving, but a text buddy, doesn't qualify for walking out, in this case. I think she used poor judgement.
> 
> Could I be a bit too naive? Maybe, I am.


Radar,

It's not that an EA is an "automatic out". There is no such thing.

However, and "unrepentant" EA is far worse than one where the wayward spouse feels guilty.

It signals bigger deeper problems.


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## magnoliagal

I didn't say it was an automatic out I'm saying what conrad is. The part where she doesn't see it as wrong is a huge problem. She believes with all her heart that she is justified in going to another man when you aren't available. Really? In my world that's called an open marriage. Did you agree to that? 

If I have a problem with my husband I discuss it, I suggest MC, I read this board I don't go find another man. If I did choose to find another man I would not do it while married. I'd get divorced first because I happen to believe cheating is wrong.


----------



## magnoliagal

One more thing though. It might be perception. To her (and you too apparently) this was just a text buddy. Was this an EA? Or just a friend? Seems there is a line there that ya'll don't agree on.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> One more thing though. It might be perception. To her (and you too apparently) this was just a text buddy. Was this an EA? Or just a friend? Seems there is a line there that ya'll don't agree on.


Exactly.
HER perception is "Friend"
My perception is EA.

Why the difference?
Because, when people engage in these friendships, they could get so engrossed, that they forget they have a spouse.
IMO, an EA doesn't have to be sexual, or a love interest. it could be an emotional fulfillment, that your spouse would normally provide through normal contact.
In my case, my wife spent every spare moment seeking his attention. He made her laugh, told funny jokes, and even shared pet names. My wife became very attached to this, as is it were her childhood friend.

If he wasn't so feminine, so would have had a PA. No doubt in my mind.
Because she never considered that, she feels her "relationship" with him was harmless.
I see it differently.
I lost my wife for the three months, she was being "entertained".


----------



## magnoliagal

My neighbor is one hot man. I love talking to him and we get along great. I can talk to him for HOURS and he's just fabulous. Now to me if I got caught up in letting him "entertain" me is that an EA? 

Nope. Wanna know why? He's gay.

I think what has happened in your marriage was almost like she got a hobby that didn't include you and that hurts. She was never going to get physical with this kid and you know it. Same as I'm never going to sleep with my neighbor. I just get to admire him from afar.

So I stand corrected I think your wife is right. It wasn't an EA. To me for it to be an official EA there has to be some attraction and that was clearly missing in this situation. 

Now in my example does that mean I'm off the hook if my husband is upset that I'm spending so much time with someone else? No but it's still not an EA. He's gay. Was never going to happen. He is just a friend. Always has been always will be.


----------



## turnera

Conrad said:


> Radar,
> 
> It's not that an EA is an "automatic out". There is no such thing.
> 
> However, and "unrepentant" EA is far worse than one where the wayward spouse feels guilty.
> 
> It signals bigger deeper problems.


That's what I meant. If she has no love for you, you are spinning your wheels.

And by leaving, you are signalling that you love and respect yourself too much to stay with someone who doesn't want you.

Often, that is the ONLY way to get them to realize they DO want you. By risking losing you.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> That's what I meant. If she has no love for you, you are spinning your wheels.
> 
> And by leaving, you are signalling that you love and respect yourself too much to stay with someone who doesn't want you.
> 
> Often, that is the ONLY way to get them to realize they DO want you. By risking losing you.


OK, I have to honest with myself on this one.

Yes, I'm probably in denial. I do feel in my heart, that my wife does not love me. I see it in her eyes, and I see how hard it is to react to kindness. Especially, when it comes from me.

Honestly, I don't have the self esteem to walk away. I'm frightened to death about it. I know I'm talking like a strong individual, but this whole thing caught me by surprise, and weakened me.
My wife says she wants to work it out, but you're all right. She hasn't shown me an ounce of affection or closeness. She's treating me like a "buddy" of hers.
I don't want to leave my family. but... It may be inevitable.
Time will make me want to leave, and that's what I think she wants me to feel.

Turnera:
The problem here is that she wouldn't care if I walked out. I feel it in my bones. I see it in her face.
This is not the same woman I married. She is so different, it's scary.

Yes, I just "broke" while writing this.
The truth does hurt, and I'm hurting.


----------



## magnoliagal

I am so sorry. My heart goes out to you.


----------



## turnera

If she doesn't care if you walked out, if this ANY life worth staying in?


----------



## madimoff

So what of the comments she made about realising stuff about her poor choices and the family and so on? Or the nicest hugs etc? Just asking, it's simply I've read the whole thread this morning and OP's most recent post seems to overlook the realisation that a woman's feelings may take a while to turn etc.
nb NOT justifying her EA or whatever it was, not demeaning OP's feelings which are understandably frazzled at the moment; simply asking a question.


----------



## Mephisto

magnoliagal said:


> My neighbor is one hot man. I love talking to him and we get along great. I can talk to him for HOURS and he's just fabulous. Now to me if I got caught up in letting him "entertain" me is that an EA?
> 
> Nope. Wanna know why? He's gay.
> 
> I think what has happened in your marriage was almost like she got a hobby that didn't include you and that hurts. She was never going to get physical with this kid and you know it. Same as I'm never going to sleep with my neighbor. I just get to admire him from afar.
> 
> So I stand corrected I think your wife is right. It wasn't an EA. To me for it to be an official EA there has to be some attraction and that was clearly missing in this situation.
> 
> Now in my example does that mean I'm off the hook if my husband is upset that I'm spending so much time with someone else? No but it's still not an EA. He's gay. Was never going to happen. He is just a friend. Always has been always will be.


I have to disagree with you wholeheartedly. If you were spending that time with him every day and ignoring your own husband. Your connection with this guy, while not in any way leading to a PA, is detracting from your connection with your husband, as you are spending all of your communication points with him instead of your partner.

An EA does not have to be sexual, nor have the capacity for sex, it is simply a shift of the focus of your emotional focus The person who supplies an emotional need in you, whether it be a need to laugh, a need to feel heard, or a need to feel desired, an EA is an EA is an EA. 

When one partner turns to a person on the outside of a marriage to have any of their NEEDS met, to the exclusion of their spouse it is an EA.

You can still have your friends and play about with them, but when it impacts on your relationship, then you are involved in an EA, be it with man, woman, eunuch or transgender!


----------



## Undertheradar

madimoff said:


> So what of the comments she made about realising stuff about her poor choices and the family and so on? Or the nicest hugs etc? Just asking, it's simply I've read the whole thread this morning and OP's most recent post seems to overlook the realisation that a woman's feelings may take a while to turn etc.
> nb NOT justifying her EA or whatever it was, not demeaning OP's feelings which are understandably frazzled at the moment; simply asking a question.


I'm starting to feel as if she's simply consoling me. Her affection is typically timely, and almost like having a "pat on the back".
Her "poor choice" comment seems as if it was used to back me off the subject. She wants peace with me. She wants the issue to end, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she's in love with her husband, and wants a life together.

*** See below, I'll paint a whole picture for you***


----------



## Undertheradar

Mephisto said:


> I have to disagree with you wholeheartedly. If you were spending that time with him every day and ignoring your own husband. Your connection with this guy, while not in any way leading to a PA, is detracting from your connection with your husband, as you are spending all of your communication points with him instead of your partner.
> 
> An EA does not have to be sexual, nor have the capacity for sex, it is simply a shift of the focus of your emotional focus The person who supplies an emotional need in you, whether it be a need to laugh, a need to feel heard, or a need to feel desired, an EA is an EA is an EA.
> 
> When one partner turns to a person on the outside of a marriage to have any of their NEEDS met, to the exclusion of their spouse it is an EA.
> 
> You can still have your friends and play about with them, but when it impacts on your relationship, then you are involved in an EA, be it with man, woman, eunuch or transgender!


I agree 100%.
It's exactly how I feel.


----------



## Undertheradar

OK, I'll write the WHOLE story.
After reading this, you may have a better understanding, of what's really going on here.

Here goes:

I'm 52 yrs old, and my wife is 37.
We met 15 yrs ago. She was obviously only 22, and I was 37.

My wife, at the time, had gotten pregnant at 18, and got married to the father. She was with him for a few years prior, but her marriage lasted 2 years.
When I met her, she was a single parent with a 18 month old, and an apartment she was barely affording.

Me:
I was also married very young, and stayed married for 13 years. I left my wife, after simply losing it. We just never "gelled". It was a mutual breakup, and we just moved on. 
Even though I was 37, when I met my wife, I had a youthful appearance, and I'll admit to having a mindset of someone much younger. 
So I guess the gap between me and my wife, was not as dramatic, as the numbers would indicate.
My wife had a maturity about her, and I never even looked at her age.

** This was NOT a case of an older guy, simply wanting a trophy, younger woman.

We got along wonderfully.
After dating for a while, we eventually got married, and had two more children. We had a wonderful marriage, We did everything happy people should do. 
We had a terrific family life. Sunday dinners at our house, holidays, BBQ's, card games, etc.
As you can see, we had a social life, and family life.
We gelled.

I was the successful husband and father, and she was the perfect wife and mother. We communicated everyday, and planned each and every day around our life together. 
We were a great team.

Then about 8 months ago, my wife got her first job in 16 years, at a local Walmart. She wanted the job, because the kids were now in school full time, and she wanted to keep herself busy during the school hours.
This is where our life changed for the worse!

She immediately made "new friends", and suddenly started feeling as if she was "missing out" on the fun of being younger. Her co-workers were mostly younger, single people, and all they spoke about, was going out, and having a good time.
I started to see a change in her, almost immediately. She wanted to do things, she felt she missed out on, by being married in those "fun years".
Suddenly, her life started to revolve around her new friends. The sunday dinners stopped, the house became messy, evening dinner disappeared, and the laundry started piling up. Thanksgiving and Christmas were cancelled because she chose to work (all her friends worked those days), and her job had a holiday foodfest those days.

Next thing I know, she's working a few later hours. From looking to do something while the kids were in school, now she's working from 2 -11pm a few days. Now I wound up leaving work early, because no one was around for the children. Now I'm cooking, doing homework, etc...

Then about 3 months into her job, and new hours, I find her texting until 3am on her late nights. She told me it was her friend "john", and he was like one of the "girls". I dismissed it, and went to sleep.
Then one night, "John" texts her at 3:30 am, and it wakes me up. The text was a simple "?", and I ask her what it meant. She had no answer. I decided to pry further into this guy, and she tells me that he's her best friend at work. 
Before you know it, she's going to lunch with John and shopping at the mall. She was open about it, and told me beforehand, that she was going with her "girlie friend".
Now, a little more time passes, and my wife and I stop communicating during the day. I decide to pull the phone records, and I see that she was texting John from 8am until 11 pm ALL DAY.
The total number of texts was over 16,000 in a three month period.
I questioned this, and she deleted all their texts, because she claims it would make me jealous, and I wouldn't understand their friendship. She said they joked all day, called each other goofy names, and shared a lot of common interests, such as music, movies, and work. She told me, she had "caring feelings" for him, and he was her best friend. (She only knew him a few months at work) ...Again, she harped on John as being "one of the girls"

I eventually had enough, and intervened. I confronted him, and put an end to it. He was feminine, indeed.
She HATED, and resented me for doing this.
Looking back, I also regret doing it the way I did. I probably should have let her come to her senses, and realize the damage being done, but I was already in a frenzy.

I'll fast forward a couple months later.....

Now my wife stopped with her EA, but has completely "come out of her shell" of being a wife and mother. The EA she had, showed her that there was more to life than what she had. Her interests now revolve around HER, Her looks, her style, her free time. We DO NOT have a typical family life anymore.

After the EA ended, she wanted to leave me. She told me, and her friends and family, that she wanted her freedom, and she was "empty inside".
She felt that she got married young (twice), and never had the chance to be on her own. She felt that I STOPPED her from having friends, and doing what she enjoyed. She felt that she wanted to go out with the co workers on happy hour nights, but couldn't because I wouldn't "approve" it.
She felt, that if she wanted to text until 3am, she wanted that right.

She basically realized that she didn't want to be married anymore, and I was the obstacle that stood in her way, of enjoying this new carefree, somewhat independent woman, that wanted to enjoy what she missed out on, all the years of marriage.
This was told to me, and to her friends and family.

So right now, I'm with a woman, that no longer wants the life she has.
There isn't anyone else. She said she feels "all grown up", and wants to do whatever she pleases.

The age gap, may have finally caught up to us.


I'll stop here for now


----------



## mary35

Ouch! My heart goes out to you because this is a tough situation. 

The age gap has not caught up with you - it's actually widened. You are an adult facing the responsibilities of a marriage and a family. And you are married to a woman who acts like a teenager who doesn't want any of the responsibilities of being an adult. How do you get her to face the fact that she is not a teenager but a woman with the responsibilities of a wife, & mother? 

While I really feel for you (and your children), I also can relate to your wife. I married at the age of 17 and had my children early. There have been many times in my life when I felt tied down, like I was missing a life of carefree fun. The difference between me and your wife is I could not let go of the responsibility part. I was always very cognitive of the consequences, especially to my children, if I were to just take off and pursue my desire to be free and live the fun life. Not only that, but I knew my husband would not just sit around and take care of me while I did it.

Here are my thoughts:

Maybe the carefree life is looking really good to her because you are filling in for all of her adult responsibilities. She may not be seeing any of the consequences of her choices. 

My husband's brother was in a similar situation as you, and we watched as his wife got wilder and bolder, while he stayed in the home taking care of the children and all the other responsibilities. She got more blatant with her behavior, including openly taking on boyfriends and insisting he move his bed to the unfinished basement. Which he did. He kept insisting he was doing what was best for the kids. In reality he was providing her with the best of both worlds. She could live the independent life, doing as she pleased, and there were no consequences for her - NONE! Her home was taken care of, her children were taken care of and she partied whenever she felt like it. Who wouldn't want that life?
Eventually they divorced, but only because one of her boyfriends when finding out she was still married, insisted that he wouldn't date a married woman. She got the house and they had joint custody - but ironically her life continued as before, because he kept on taking care of all of her responsibilities even after the divorce (including taking care of her house).

Your wife feels "all grown up" and wants to do whatever she pleases! Fine - maybe you should let her, but because she is all grown up that means she gets all the responsibilities of being a grown up. I.E. she can support her self. She loses her home, her children (for at least part of the time) and she loses her "sugar daddy" who is taking care of her and everything else which allows her to have the freedom and fun without any costs. 

Something to think about. 

I am sorry you have to deal with this. You sound like a good man who loves his wife. I hope you can work this out with her.


----------



## turnera

This is one time I would tell the husband to move out. 

Why? Becuase she's USING you to allow her to reclaim her youth. She can do that because YOU have taken over being the mother.

Leave and let HER deal with handling 3 kids, paying bills, and making ends meet, and THEN try to fit her reclaimed youth in there.

That's a great way to get her to grow up.

Even if you stay, she'll never come back - not until she's hit her rock bottom. And you being there to take up her slack will never get her to do that.

Let her try to raise 3 kids on a Walmart job.


----------



## magnoliagal

turnera said:


> Let her try to raise 3 kids on a Walmart job.


If anything would solve a grass is greener complex this would do it. The problem is at the moment she resents him for holding her back. The cure is to let her go.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> This is one time I would tell the husband to move out.
> 
> Why? Becuase she's USING you to allow her to reclaim her youth. She can do that because YOU have taken over being the mother.
> 
> Leave and let HER deal with handling 3 kids, paying bills, and making ends meet, and THEN try to fit her reclaimed youth in there.
> 
> That's a great way to get her to grow up.
> 
> Even if you stay, she'll never come back - not until she's hit her rock bottom. And you being there to take up her slack will never get her to do that.
> 
> Let her try to raise 3 kids on a Walmart job.


Yes, I know in my heart, this is the only way to shake things up. However, NYS law would allow this woman to have that financial freedom in our home, ....while she enjoys herself. After she gets rid of her "sugar daddy", she'll still reap the rewards of 16 yrs together. As people always do, she will adapt, and find ways to care for the house, and kids. She'll have a 17 yr old live in babysitter, and have her fun. 
I dont think she'll ever hot rock bottom. And she knows this.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> If anything would solve a grass is greener complex this would do it. The problem is at the moment she resents him for holding her back. The cure is to let her go.


Unfortunately, based on NYS child support laws, she'll have about 75K a year to support herself.
I think she'll find a way.

As far as holding her back... I don't know the truth at this moment. In one breath, she says that she's working through it, but my own observations, I see otherwise. She hasn't expressed a desire to do anything. I told her, she could do whatever she wants. 
She's not going out with friends. She stopped the texting. But I do sense the resentment for doing this.

I'm hoping that she gets whatever it is out of her system, and comes back..... But I know it's not likely.

FWIW... I'm considering everything being said. Leaving is an option for me. However, I feel that I'd like to ride it out, and see how it plays out.... even if it hurts.
I feel that the pain of leaving my family, outweighs the pain of staying here


----------



## Undertheradar

mary35 said:


> Ouch! My heart goes out to you because this is a tough situation.
> 
> The age gap has not caught up with you - it's actually widened. You are an adult facing the responsibilities of a marriage and a family. And you are married to a woman who acts like a teenager who doesn't want any of the responsibilities of being an adult. How do you get her to face the fact that she is not a teenager but a woman with the responsibilities of a wife, & mother?
> 
> While I really feel for you (and your children), I also can relate to your wife. I married at the age of 17 and had my children early. There have been many times in my life when I felt tied down, like I was missing a life of carefree fun. The difference between me and your wife is I could not let go of the responsibility part. I was always very cognitive of the consequences, especially to my children, if I were to just take off and pursue my desire to be free and live the fun life. Not only that, but I knew my husband would not just sit around and take care of me while I did it.
> 
> Here are my thoughts:
> 
> Maybe the carefree life is looking really good to her because you are filling in for all of her adult responsibilities. She may not be seeing any of the consequences of her choices.
> 
> My husband's brother was in a similar situation as you, and we watched as his wife got wilder and bolder, while he stayed in the home taking care of the children and all the other responsibilities. She got more blatant with her behavior, including openly taking on boyfriends and insisting he move his bed to the unfinished basement. Which he did. He kept insisting he was doing what was best for the kids. In reality he was providing her with the best of both worlds. She could live the independent life, doing as she pleased, and there were no consequences for her - NONE! Her home was taken care of, her children were taken care of and she partied whenever she felt like it. Who wouldn't want that life?
> Eventually they divorced, but only because one of her boyfriends when finding out she was still married, insisted that he wouldn't date a married woman. She got the house and they had joint custody - but ironically her life continued as before, because he kept on taking care of all of her responsibilities even after the divorce (including taking care of her house).
> 
> Your wife feels "all grown up" and wants to do whatever she pleases! Fine - maybe you should let her, but because she is all grown up that means she gets all the responsibilities of being a grown up. I.E. she can support her self. She loses her home, her children (for at least part of the time) and she loses her "sugar daddy" who is taking care of her and everything else which allows her to have the freedom and fun without any costs.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> I am sorry you have to deal with this. You sound like a good man who loves his wife. I hope you can work this out with her.


I stopped leaving work, and now let HER leave work. I don't cook for HER, but I make sure my kids eat.
I wash MY clothes, and clean after my mess.

She does her share now. We're just not a couple right now.


----------



## mary35

You are in a horrible and very painful position. I understand what you are saying about the state laws and unfortunately you make a valid point. The consequences of this situation are going to and will continue to hit you and your children the most, and there seems to be no getting around that fact. Hopefully her own conscience and inner self will stop this madness before its too late. 

Are you in marital counseling? If not it might be worthwhile, maybe it will help her work through the resentment. The fact is - she chose to get married and have kids with you. Her choices put her where she is at - yet you are getting the blame and the resentment. A good counselor might help her see that. She clearly has some inner problems that will probably require professional help to resolve.

I admire you for hanging in there and standing your ground.


----------



## Undertheradar

mary35 said:


> You are in a horrible and very painful position. I understand what you are saying about the state laws and unfortunately you make a valid point. The consequences of this situation are going to and will continue to hit you and your children the most, and there seems to be no getting around that fact. Hopefully her own conscience and inner self will stop this madness before its too late.
> 
> Are you in marital counseling? If not it might be worthwhile, maybe it will help her work through the resentment. The fact is - she chose to get married and have kids with you. Her choices put her where she is at - yet you are getting the blame and the resentment. A good counselor might help her see that. She clearly has some inner problems that will probably require professional help to resolve.
> 
> I admire you for hanging in there and standing your ground.


 My strength is coming from being a bit older, and wiser. I partially understand what my wife might be going through, and as long as she doesn't get physical, I'll deal with her " identity crisis". She legitimately never did have a social life, and she may have to get involved a bit more with the "outside world". She is NOT giving me the impression that she wants to date, or have any interest in other men. I feel the job thing could get old too..

This is one case, where I have to wait and see where she goes with this. She may still be very angry at me. And as others have mentioned, women do take longer to get past certain things. 

As far as counseling .... She agreed to go for it. However, I get the feeling that she's afraid of it. She goes ack and forth with the idea. She knows what she did and is doing, but won't give me the satisfaction of letting me know how she feels. That's just the way she is. 

Fwiw.... I heard through the grapevine that her close friend just " blasted her" for her behavior. This is what she needs. But it can't come from me.
Riding this out is the smartest thing to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## grizabella

As I read this it sounds like an "all or nothing" proposition for you both. You have to live with her wild ways or leave and she has to buckle down to total domestic life or leave. I think it would be helpful for you to seek MC to determine what she gets out of her rather frivolous lifestyle and help her find it in acceptable ways. I know you loved the Sunday dinners and holiday dinners and friends over, etc. but she may have seen these things as just more work for her. Find out what is fun for both of you and pursue it. What is fun for you? If she needs a best friend to make her laugh you may want to find out what she finds amusing.


----------



## Undertheradar

grizabella said:


> As I read this it sounds like an "all or nothing" proposition for you both. You have to live with her wild ways or leave and she has to buckle down to total domestic life or leave. I think it would be helpful for you to seek MC to determine what she gets out of her rather frivolous lifestyle and help her find it in acceptable ways. I know you loved the Sunday dinners and holiday dinners and friends over, etc. but she may have seen these things as just more work for her. Find out what is fun for both of you and pursue it. What is fun for you? If she needs a best friend to make her laugh you may want to find out what she finds amusing.


Yep, I agree with the all or nothing. 
Sunday dinners where shared. I cooked o n many occasions, and always did the shopping. She always reminded me how grateful she wad for keeping her family close. She loved the Sunday dinner as much as I did. 
Fwiw.... She did the inviting. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

MC is a must at this point. She needs to hear from an authority that she can't expect you to wait around while she sows her oats.

So...she is not actually still contacting any men? At all?

How old is your youngest?


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> MC is a must at this point. She needs to hear from an authority that she can't expect you to wait around while she sows her oats.
> 
> So...she is not actually still contacting any men? At all?
> 
> How old is your youngest?


I don't feel as if she wants to sow her oats. I think she's feeling more of a " you're not my father" / " don't tell me what to do" attitude. Right now, there is NO male contact, other than her work relationships. Fwiw.... I can't keep her in a bubble either. She works with men, nit much you can about that.
She is NOT texting, and she's not going put after work.. 

I need to get into MC. I know this, but I also know that she'll face some sort of judgement, and that will stop her from going. 
Trust me, this woman, will NEVER admit wrong doing. And if she does, it's only to appease me.

She's a tough one, trust me..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Then if she is NOT contacting any men - and you can verify that - then this has become an issue of whether you are going to carry the whole family or not.

I suggest not.

Time for an honest discussion. Give her credit for discontinuing contact with other men - 'feminine' or not - and then lay it out. Tell her you married her to be your partner, not your child. You don't WANT to tell her what to do. But at the same time, you are not going to take over care for the whole family while she reclaims her youth. Tell her that, if that's what she wants most in life, she's welcome to do so - but that she will do it ELSEWHERE, and the kids will stay with you. 

This is YOUR TIME to be STRONG, ok?


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Then if she is NOT contacting any men - and you can verify that - then this has become an issue of whether you are going to carry the whole family or not.
> 
> I suggest not.
> 
> Time for an honest discussion. Give her credit for discontinuing contact with other men - 'feminine' or not - and then lay it out. Tell her you married her to be your partner, not your child. You don't WANT to tell her what to do. But at the same time, you are not going to take over care for the whole family while she reclaims her youth. Tell her that, if that's what she wants most in life, she's welcome to do so - but that she will do it ELSEWHERE, and the kids will stay with you.
> 
> This is YOUR TIME to be STRONG, ok?


Lol... My wife makes it very difficult to have these types of talks. 
For example: I had that very talk this morning. . I reminded her that she can't have the best of both worlds. I told her that I needed full interaction from her regarding us,a nd the family. She looked at me, and said " this is the crap I don't like" ... And just walked away. Two hours later, I was greeted with " let's just have a nice day" , and she got ready for work. 

I could never get one of these small talks on the table.. She stops me dead in my tracks every time. I get frustrated, and angry, and then I start to question her dedication. 

I almost feel as if she simply wants to be here, but doesn't want to do anything to make it better for me. Then out of the clear blue, I'll get an " I love you "
Shes driving me crazy with the mixed signals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## magnoliagal

She's not being heard or understood. My husband used to get defensive when I tried to have talks and now I know his love bank was empty. I had to fill that back up before I got that "this is crap I don't like" comment.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> She's not being heard or understood. My husband used to get defensive when I tried to have talks and now I know his love bank was empty. I had to fill that back up before I got that "this is crap I don't like" comment.


I don't understand what you're saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal

My story may have nothing to do with yours so keep that in mind. See I didn't care at all how my husband felt. Your wife may feel that you don't care how she feels either. She hasn't felt heard about her lost youth feelings. She thinks you are treating her like a father. That parent/child relationship I had as well with me being the parent. It starts with a belief that my way is the right and only way without even hearing the other person.

For example my husband is a spender/dreamer and I'm frugal. Whenever he wanted something I'd immediately shoot him down. I didn't respect that he thought differently than me. Now I'm more likely to say something like "what would you do with that? that would be fun. That sounds cool". I don't even get into shooting him down with "we can't afford it" that makes me a buzz kill and a parent. I honor his wants and he likes that.

Your wife sounds simliar. She wants to socialize and have lots of friends. You want her to stay at home and be the wife and mother. Isn't there a way to meet in the middle without squashing her aspirations for a life away from you and kids? The more you try to make her do what you want the more she will rebel. Hence parent/child relationship.


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## grizabella

It is not the job of a marriage counselor to be judgemental. It is their job to help you uncover what is not working in your relationship and then guide you to solutions that are beneficial to both.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> My story may have nothing to do with yours so keep that in mind. See I didn't care at all how my husband felt. Your wife may feel that you don't care how she feels either. She hasn't felt heard about her lost youth feelings. She thinks you are treating her like a father. That parent/child relationship I had as well with me being the parent. It starts with a belief that my way is the right and only way without even hearing the other person.
> 
> For example my husband is a spender/dreamer and I'm frugal. Whenever he wanted something I'd immediately shoot him down. I didn't respect that he thought differently than me. Now I'm more likely to say something like "what would you do with that? that would be fun. That sounds cool". I don't even get into shooting him down with "we can't afford it" that makes me a buzz kill and a parent. I honor his wants and he likes that.
> 
> Your wife sounds simliar. She wants to socialize and have lots of friends. You want her to stay at home and be the wife and mother. Isn't there a way to meet in the middle without squashing her aspirations for a life away from you and kids? The more you try to make her do what you want the more she will rebel. Hence parent/child relationship.



Ok sounds fair.

However, she's not giving me the impression that she can't do whatever she wants. Whether she's keeping it from me, is another story.

What I'm getting from her is a "hot spot" regarding her job.
There's loads of tension here, whenever her job comes into a conversation.

Here's what I'm getting:

A number of months ago (while she was texting her EA), I popped up at Walmart, were she works.
At that time, the text issue hadn't blown up yet, but I was sensing something wasn't right by her detachment from our marriage.
When I walked in there, she was surrounded by co workers, laughing and having a grand ol' time. This was not the same woman that came home after work. I looked at her, and kept walking. she walked over to me and asked what's wrong. I told her (quietly) that she should act that way at home. That turned into an argument at home.
Then on another occasion, I went there for something else. ( I forgot). When I walked in there, there was some customer sitting on a box, having very flirty, friendly conversation with my wife. I just walked over, and said hello, got what I needed, and left. I made no impression that anything was wrong.
As it turned out, the guy was a client of mine, and he called me to apologize for "flirting" with my wife. He didn't know she was my wife. He said my wife was not flirting, but was being very nice, and going along with the conversation.
I just let it go.

This was about 4 months ago, and I haven't been there since.

Yesterday, I was invited to a pool party with my children. I couldn't find their bathing suits, so I told my wife I may come by later, and maybe she could help us on her coffee break.
SHE WENT NUTS!!

She told me to leave her job alone, and I should stay away from there!!!
I asked her why she felt that way, and she told me that I make her very uncomfortable when I'm there. She goes back to the first incident, when she was laughing, and the flirty incident, as spying on her.
I told that wasn't the case, but she's not buying it.

Of course, the obvious is "what are you worried about", if you weren't doing something you shouldn't be doing, why worry. She feels, I would get jealous because she's being nice to customers. That's not true, but to her it is.

So again.... The JOB is destroying us.
First, the texting, then the going out with workers, now stay away.
The obvious, is that wants me to stay away for apparent reasons, but that's not the case.
I know what goes on there....
She's a very attractive woman, and she gets lots of attention from customers, and co workers. I'm sure lots of men get very cute with her, and whether or not she likes or not, she feels that it's something she doesn't want me to see.

Before you say I'm crazy, let me explain.... I used to work in an office with loads of woman. They would constantly say flirtatious comments to me. I would laugh it off, and dismiss it. But if my wife walked in my office at that moment, she would have been upset. So I can understand her, ...in this case. 

Needless to ay, between the issues at home and work, It's really starting to take its toll on me.
I feel so insecure right now. 

So for today, this is the issue.... again.


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## mary35

I think you have a rough road ahead Undertheradar. Honestly, I don't think this will get resolved without professional help. Even if she won't go, you should go and get help with your insecurity. Counselors are trained to be unbiased and will help you find solutions. If you can find a good one, they will lead your wife to see the situation as she needs to without feeling judged. 

It is sad that one of your problems is that her job is taking her away from most of the best family bonding times - which is holidays and weekends. Clearly a need is being met for her with this job that is not being met anywhere else, so she is not likely going to want to leave the job. There also seems to be some deep rooted resentment towards you. 

Find a counselor. This seems to run deep and I don't think you will find the answers without some help


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## magnoliagal

Back when my marriage was on serious rocks I had a career. There I felt powerful, needed, wanted, appreciated, attractive all those lovely addictive things like an affair. At the time I loathed my husband. In comparison to the suits I worked with my husband paled in comparison. I'd flirt with men at work, go out with the woman to bars, and could have cared less what my husband thought. I worked long hours (midnight or later) and he'd call wanting to know where I was and I'd cringe. I'd avoid his call, didn't want him coming to work, the works. 

Truthfully what I wanted at that time in my life was to be single again. 

That is what I think your wife wants to.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Back when my marriage was on serious rocks I had a career. There I felt powerful, needed, wanted, appreciated, attractive all those lovely addictive things like an affair. At the time I loathed my husband. In comparison to the suits I worked with my husband paled in comparison. I'd flirt with men at work, go out with the woman to bars, and could have cared less what my husband thought. I worked long hours (midnight or later) and he'd call wanting to know where I was and I'd cringe. I'd avoid his call, didn't want him coming to work, the works.
> 
> Truthfully what I wanted at that time in my life was to be single again.
> 
> That is what I think your wife wants to.


Sounds like her, doesn't it?
Sadly, I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Undertheradar

She came home tonight, and said I was " acting funny". ( I was cold).
I decided to go sit in the yard... Alone.
'
About a half hour later, she comes out and asks what's wrong. I told her I was tired of living in a " fake marriage" , and today's the day, she spills her guts out, or I'll just assume the marriage is over. I had enough.
She went on to tell me that she was trying her best to make it work. I asked her point blank, if she was feeling as if a part of her still wanted out, and she said yes.. Part of her did. I told her that was a crock of **** answer, and I'll consider us done. She said no, its not done. She doesn't want to split up. 
Okay... Then what do you want?.... She said she wants to stay with me. She doesn't want to hurt anyone.
She was about to get into it......
Then....
My daughter entered the yard, and the conversation ended...

To be continued......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Undertheradar

Well, we did have our conversation late last night.
It was a pleasant, open hearted much needed talk. She told me she was only here for the kids. She said she loved me, but doesn't know why she feels the way she feels.
She explained that she doesn't want to split, because she wants to work through her feelings, and hopefully feel differently. 

There's nothing going on at work, and I decided that at this point, why should I bother making myself crazy over it.

I think maybe it's time, I back off as much as possible.. If she's here just for the kids, then I'm making it too easy for her. I need to let her leave early to pick up the kids.
No more cooking nice family meals, and she can clean her own house.

Turnera suggested earlier that i should just leave. I thought that was harsh... Well maybe it wasn't as harsh as I first thought. But I can't bring myself to do this.

I hate to say this..... But after we went to bed, she once again cuddled up to me, and SHE initiate sex. It was good sex, too. WTF?

UPDATE......
This morning she comes down for coffee, and says she doesn't know why she said what she said. She wants to retract her comments about being here just for the kids.
This woman is so confused. Now you see why I'm going nuts with this?
She started crying, and she told me she loves me... Again. She told me, she doesn't want to lose me.
She told me that I can come to job anytime I want, and she wants to "start over" with me. 
She suggested we ship the kids off to school, and we both take a day off, and go sit by the beach for a few hours.

To for today, we'll be a happy couple. 
(if this isn't enough to put someone in the nut house, what is?)

I guess I had my MOJO going last night. It gave her something to think about 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> I think maybe it's time, I back off as much as possible.. If she's here just for the kids, then I'm making it too easy for her. I need to let her leave early to pick up the kids. No more cooking nice family meals, and she can clean her own house.


A good step toward finding your spine. Women like spine.



> Turnera suggested earlier that i should just leave. I thought that was harsh... Well maybe it wasn't as harsh as I first thought. But I can't bring myself to do this.


If she doesn't start making changes, then you are harming YOU, your MARRIAGE, and the KIDS by staying. She wants you to keep being a doormat so SHE doesn't have to do anything. Teach her that she CAN do something and then feel good about it. She's assuming that keeping a man under her feet is the only way to be, but YOU can teach her otherwise. Make her EARN you.



> I hate to say this..... But after we went to bed, she once again cuddled up to me, and SHE initiate sex. It was good sex, too. WTF?


That's easy. She tagged you.

And you bought it.

Look, I'm not telling you to stop having SF with her. I'm asking you to be more careful and observant about WHEN you do - check to see if the only times you get it is when she's in trouble.

Do you watch Glee? Your wife reminds me of Will's wife.



> She told me that I can come to job anytime I want, and she wants to "start over" with me.


Great. Hold her to that. Start showing up randomly to check on her. If she acts up about it, you'll know that she only said that because you showed a spine and she had to backpedal to get you back under control. She probably figures that such speech usually puts you back in your place and shuts you up. Prove her wrong.



> She suggested we ship the kids off to school, and we both take a day off, and go sit by the beach for a few hours.


My first instinct is she's trying to 'pay' you again, for more control and to get you to back down (think Will's wife). But go ahead. It can't hurt to see if you can get any real emotion out of her instead of what I see as an act.



> I guess I had my MOJO going last night. It gave her something to think about


Now, can you KEEP it? Now is NOT the time to back down. Now, today, is when you need to spell out for her EXACTLY what changes you expect from her before you leave. She needs to know exactly. Print out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires from MB and take them with you today. Fill them out. If she's not even willing to fill them out, you'll know this is an act. Tell her what else you'll have to see from her. Tell her that June is going to be a very telling month. Let her stew on that.


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## 2xloser

The whole question of sexual relations while working through _whether_ to work toward reconciliation or not is quite a dilemma I haven't seen discussed much.

On the one hand, why deprive each other of this basic need? Besides which, let's face it, usually with the emotions so high and adrenaline rushing, it's kind of make-up sex on steroids, very powerful. It can also be a conenction beyond words, and a reminder of something that is very good between you.

On the other hand, it can leave _both/I] parties with confusion or leaving a message they didn't want (ie, the LS conveying the WS is somehow 'forgiven' or 'acceptance for what they have done')... so is it better to NOT have it, or to go ahead and enjoy it as emotions run so high?_


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## Undertheradar

2xloser said:


> The whole question of sexual relations while working through _whether_ to work toward reconciliation or not is quite a dilemma I haven't seen discussed much.
> 
> On the one hand, why deprive each other of this basic need? Besides which, let's face it, usually with the emotions so high and adrenaline rushing, it's kind of make-up sex on steroids, very powerful. It can also be a conenction beyond words, and a reminder of something that is very good between you.
> 
> On the other hand, it can leave _both/I] parties with confusion or leaving a message they didn't want (ie, the LS conveying the WS is somehow 'forgiven' or 'acceptance for what they have done')... so is it better to NOT have it, or to go ahead and enjoy it as emotions run so high?_


_

In this case (last night), even though she initiated, let's just say that she saw that I was "ready". So you might say that I "dangled the carrot", and left it up to her to decide. 
Afterwards, the connection was stronger, a lot of the tension was in fact gone. 
So IMHO, if the sex is mutual, there could be a fulfillment there. However, if this happened at a time, when I was in full pursuit of my wife, and she was running, it could be very damaging.
Something like this happend a couple months ago, and at that time, I didn't know too much about "pity sex". Yep, she had sex out of pity for me.
Last night was much different._


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## magnoliagal

It's a toss up. Either yes she "tagged you" to keep you on the hook. Cake eating so to speak. She gets to have her pseudo single life while you play mommy at home.

OR

You actually connected.

OR 

You got your MOJO back.

My gut says she tagged you. The sex was good because she was attracted to your spine. Going "cold" was a good move. When I went through this phase I was 30ish and my husband was a doormat. Had I met another man in that phase I would have left him. I don't like to be alone.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> A good step toward finding your spine. Women like spine.
> 
> If she doesn't start making changes, then you are harming YOU, your MARRIAGE, and the KIDS by staying. She wants you to keep being a doormat so SHE doesn't have to do anything. Teach her that she CAN do something and then feel good about it. She's assuming that keeping a man under her feet is the only way to be, but YOU can teach her otherwise. Make her EARN you.
> 
> That's easy. She tagged you.
> 
> And you bought it.
> 
> Look, I'm not telling you to stop having SF with her. I'm asking you to be more careful and observant about WHEN you do - check to see if the only times you get it is when she's in trouble.
> 
> Do you watch Glee? Your wife reminds me of Will's wife.
> 
> Great. Hold her to that. Start showing up randomly to check on her. If she acts up about it, you'll know that she only said that because you showed a spine and she had to backpedal to get you back under control. She probably figures that such speech usually puts you back in your place and shuts you up. Prove her wrong.
> 
> My first instinct is she's trying to 'pay' you again, for more control and to get you to back down (think Will's wife). But go ahead. It can't hurt to see if you can get any real emotion out of her instead of what I see as an act.
> 
> Now, can you KEEP it? Now is NOT the time to back down. Now, today, is when you need to spell out for her EXACTLY what changes you expect from her before you leave. She needs to know exactly. Print out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires from MB and take them with you today. Fill them out. If she's not even willing to fill them out, you'll know this is an act. Tell her what else you'll have to see from her. Tell her that June is going to be a very telling month. Let her stew on that.


_*First of all, I'd like to express my gratitute to all those that have been keeping up with this thread.
I can assure you, that I am absorbing as much as possible, while at the same time, using my own better judgement, when to apply what's been suggested.*_

OK,
Something came up at my job, so we didn't do the beach thing. We're both at work today. No beach today. 

I agree 100% with the spine thing. She definetely weakened me with this nonsense.
I can honestly say that I won't tolerate this marriage, if she's here just for the kids. But at the same time, I appreciate her honesty.
This situation will play itself out. I know it will.

*The "Tagging" thing:*OK, this is something new to me.
About last night... Even though she initiated, I made the offering. She went along with it. It was mutual. Regardless.

I'll raise my awareness on this one.

This morning, we did discuss "where we go from here". Keep in mind, I don't trust her words too much. She's been on a roller coaster, and is subject to change without notice. So I threw a few things out there.
I decided to play the "show up at work" thing a little different. I told her that showing up at her job was not a priority, and I have no intention of "spying on her". However, I did let her know that I won't honor being banned at her request, and will go there if I need something. So I got my point across, without having to add more stress to the situation.

Before leaving for work, she was more vocal than usual. She explained that she wants to be "normal" again. I told her we'd have to make some adjustments for that to happen. But I also said that as long as she feels that she's here just for the kids, she could forget about team work from me.

This is so confusing, I honestly feel that I just want to shut down for a while. I don't want to talk about it to her, nor do I want to ask her for anything. I want to back off 100%, and let her come to me.

She told me this morning that she doesn't feel the way she said she feels. She said she doesn't know WHAT she feels, but she does know that she loves me. She said she feels that she's acting selfish, and a lot has to do with me harrassing her at work, She feels that I don't want her to have friends. She resents me for that.

Something did come out of this mornings' talk. She mentioned laughing and doing a lot of joking at work, and how she was concerned about I may interpret that. I think that's a sore spot here. I told her to have all the fun she wants. I'm not concerned. She was happy with my response. I really want to loosen up some of this resentment, and I think a great deal of it, is coming from what took place the past few months at her job.


Turnera, I sent you a PM.


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## turnera

With good reason.

The thing is, when a spouse cheats, it behooves the betrayed spouse to set up some strong, high bars, to start trusting the cheater again. I'm not sure I've seen that in you, except for today's comment. For instance, if she found something in her time with another man, that she may feel was better than what she had at home, you BOTH need to be in counseling - either together, or apart (or both) - to explore that. If she's not willing to discuss this in MC, then you have a problem. Work on THAT aspect.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> With good reason.
> 
> The thing is, when a spouse cheats, it behooves the betrayed spouse to set up some strong, high bars, to start trusting the cheater again. I'm not sure I've seen that in you, except for today's comment. For instance, if she found something in her time with another man, that she may feel was better than what she had at home, you BOTH need to be in counseling - either together, or apart (or both) - to explore that. If she's not willing to discuss this in MC, then you have a problem. Work on THAT aspect.


Yes, MC did come up, and she did agree to go.
This happened this morning.

OH, and I don't believe her. I'll believe it when I see it.


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## sammy3

magnoliagal, turnera, 2xloser, jellybean, catherine600(?), to name a few,...

How did you all figure it out ? So many of yours posts are right on regardless of each ind situation. I imagine there are many of us out there listening and trying to apply your wise words of wisdom to ourselves.

~sammy


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## turnera

Many years of dealing with the exact same situations. Cheaters really DO follow a script. So do walkaway wives, usually. And so do abusive situations. And so on. We're watching with worked and didn't work over the years, and telling you what to do and what to avoid. That's the easy part; the hard part is following the advice, even when it seems like it's the worst thing to do.


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## cherrypie18

I just read the whole thread and I think this is what she's going through:

Midlife Crisis, Stress and Depression

Midlife Crisis: Depression or Normal Transition?

She needs help because she seems to be out of control.


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## magnoliagal

I read a lot, have had lots of therapy, love to research and am aware. Once you become aware you can really see through people's BS. I've learned to translate what people say into what they really mean. It's not that hard once you finally see the light. People aren't all that different from each other and most have no clue what they themselves mean. I now have fun with it. I joke and say "well my sister said such and such but what she really meant was something completely different". Even if I called her on it she'd still deny it. But I know the truth. And the truth will set you free.


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## cherrypie18

magnoliagal said:


> I read a lot, have had lots of therapy, love to research and am aware. Once you become aware you can really see through people's BS. I've learned to translate what people say into what they really mean. It's not that hard once you finally see the light. People aren't all that different from each other and most have no clue what they themselves mean. I now have fun with it. I joke and say "well my sister said such and such but what she really meant was something completely different". Even if I called her on it she'd still deny it. But I know the truth. And the truth will set you free.


It's easy when you know someone well, like a sibling who you grew up with and know all of their habits, personality and just about everything about them. You already know their intentions and what they're like and you trust them and can laugh it off. 
But how do you do that with someone you did not grow up with? Like a spouse...they came into your life at a certain time and you don't really know what they were like _before_ they met you. You learn about them after your encounter and a lot of people can put on an amazing show to hide their true nature. 

There are some people I can read very well and others who I can't tell what their true intentions are, which makes me feel like I'm being paranoid.


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## sammy3

What is the script for the walkaway wife? I would really like to know what path I'm on.


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## magnoliagal

cherrypie18 said:


> It's easy when you know someone well, like a sibling who you grew up with and know all of their habits, personality and just about everything about them. You already know their intentions and what they're like and you trust them and can laugh it off.
> But how do you do that with someone you did not grow up with? Like a spouse...they came into your life at a certain time and you don't really know what they were like _before_ they met you. You learn about them after your encounter and a lot of people can put on an amazing show to hide their true nature.
> 
> There are some people I can read very well and others who I can't tell what their true intentions are, which makes me feel like I'm being paranoid.


Here's the thing though. If you study human behavior you will find that there are only a handful of key personalities. Listen to people and watch their body language. It doesn't take me long now to peg people as to what they are really like. Passive, controlling, a nag, go with the flow, checked out, etc.

Sure some people can put on an amazing show but I find it's rare for them to do it for long. There are always exceptions I will admit that. I believe most people with their actions and words will tell you who they are truthfully. You just have to learn to read between the lines and know the games. 

I read alot here on TAM and I'm amazed at the common threads of stories. I'm fascinated by patterns like the WS ones and their scripts. Or the checked out spouses ones. They all say and do the same things. It's so predictable. Since reading these stories I've gotten really good at reading my own husband. Before I was just too close to it and too jaded by my own perceptions of him. I've been able to step back and really focus on what he's saying vs what his body is saying. Or specifically what he's NOT saying. His actions are more telling than his words are.

I find all this just fascinating.


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## Undertheradar

Magnolia;
Prior to joining TAM, I had known nothing about WS, scripts, EA's, and none of the VERY COMMON spousal traits you mention.
However, after coming here, I too, am amazed at the alarming number of people with the same exact scenarios as many of us.

It's opened up a whole new world for me, and the learning process, has been truthfully painful, yet beneficial for the survival of my current situation.


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## magnoliagal

UR I know me too. I used to think my situation was rare but nope I've met many people on here with marriages almost identical to mine. My husband isn't forthcoming but the men here are. I now have a better understanding of why he does what he does.

And you are right on the painful part. I'm not dealing with an EA. I'm competing with work, the tv, excessive sleep and food. Typical checked out man. Check. Got it. The truth is hard to face but face it we must in order to change.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> UR I know me too. I used to think my situation was rare but nope I've met many people on here with marriages almost identical to mine. My husband isn't forthcoming but the men here are. I now have a better understanding of why he does what he does.
> 
> And you are right on the painful part. I'm not dealing with an EA. I'm competing with work, the tv, excessive sleep and food. Typical checked out man. Check. Got it. The truth is hard to face but face it we must in order to change.


We are not alone, are we? Nope.

My EA situation is a bit different than most, too. I don't think my wife fell in love with anyone. I think she just got caught up in the fun part of it. However, it did open my eyes, (and hers) to the fact that something was missing from our marriage.

Your input, along with the many others has taught me how to handle things in a way that I wouldn't have handled it. 
I may not have learned it 100%, but little by little, the process is sinking in.

There's a good chance that my wife simply fell out of love with me, and the she wants to explore a new life. But having a better understanding of how she feels, and knowing how to handle it, will make my life much easier.


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## sammy3

This recent conversation is the very thing that is swimming in my head and heart... you all put into words so well. I think my reality is starting to sink in... I feel this is going to be the hardest soul-searching period I have ever encounter.

I feel sick to my stomach.


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## turnera

Sammy, do you have your own thread?


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## jayde

Hi Under . . . I didn't read through this entire thread but did read your other one. I've been going through something similar (except she says things like, "I have to figure out what's best for ME," "If this isn't working for ME, I'll have to move on." etc. (so much for the 'We' in marriage). She's brought up divorce when it never entered my mind.

I didn't get the impression that you and she are seeing a therapist (or I don't recall the topic coming up). Getting a marriage therapist involved for us has given me some glimpses of reality check. He'll ask her point blank about what's going on (for real) - and not just what's in her head (where I think a lot of the problems are). This gives me back a little sanity. It also has forced her to talk through some feelings (forced - she can't take too mcuh silence and therefore speaks). And I'm finding that a lot of the issues are old ones - which provides more sanity to me. It hasn't fixed everything - but if we do end up divorced - at least I'll know why.

I also know that you've really been trying (and she doesn't seem to be very much or consistently). But, you mention her 'I-want-out' behavior over the past 3-4 months . . . out of a 15 year marriage. It seems there are glimmers that she doesn't really know what she wants. I know that these times are stressful, and it sounds like you want to save your marriage (at least on most days  so perhaps you can muster up a little more patience (you have already exhibited a lot of patience for sure). You mentioned going to the shore for a week - by yourself - which sounds like a great idea for a little space for both of you. And I'm not implying being a doormat - just not rushing to the divorce lawyer too quickly - and urging her to get some help. And maintaining your borders. You seem too commited and passionate (at least for most of your postings) about your marriage to chuck it all in 4 months.

Last comment, for me, I'll take pity sex, happy sex, whatever sex. After we had a pretty long drought (because of her and something I said that she misunderstood) - I'll take whatever's she's putting out. And part of this, I think that the physical sex is an important step to getting closer in other ways. I think that not having sex will only prolong the rift or make it wider. And if by chance it gets passionate, all the better.

I'm new to all this stuff too - we've been married 19 years - the last 6-8 months have been really rough. What I've written here is just what I've experienced and thought through over the past few months. I'm sure someone's gonna slam me for being naive, too nice, oblivious, whatever. That said, this past weekend seemd to have been a positive turning point but we'll see.

Good luck Under!


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## Undertheradar

jayde said:


> Hi Under . . . I didn't read through this entire thread but did read your other one. I've been going through something similar (except she says things like, "I have to figure out what's best for ME," "If this isn't working for ME, I'll have to move on." etc. (so much for the 'We' in marriage). She's brought up divorce when it never entered my mind.
> 
> I didn't get the impression that you and she are seeing a therapist (or I don't recall the topic coming up). Getting a marriage therapist involved for us has given me some glimpses of reality check. He'll ask her point blank about what's going on (for real) - and not just what's in her head (where I think a lot of the problems are). This gives me back a little sanity. It also has forced her to talk through some feelings (forced - she can't take too mcuh silence and therefore speaks). And I'm finding that a lot of the issues are old ones - which provides more sanity to me. It hasn't fixed everything - but if we do end up divorced - at least I'll know why.
> 
> I also know that you've really been trying (and she doesn't seem to be very much or consistently). But, you mention her 'I-want-out' behavior over the past 3-4 months . . . out of a 15 year marriage. It seems there are glimmers that she doesn't really know what she wants. I know that these times are stressful, and it sounds like you want to save your marriage (at least on most days  so perhaps you can muster up a little more patience (you have already exhibited a lot of patience for sure). You mentioned going to the shore for a week - by yourself - which sounds like a great idea for a little space for both of you. And I'm not implying being a doormat - just not rushing to the divorce lawyer too quickly - and urging her to get some help. And maintaining your borders. You seem too commited and passionate (at least for most of your postings) about your marriage to chuck it all in 4 months.
> 
> Last comment, for me, I'll take pity sex, happy sex, whatever sex. After we had a pretty long drought (because of her and something I said that she misunderstood) - I'll take whatever's she's putting out. And part of this, I think that the physical sex is an important step to getting closer in other ways. I think that not having sex will only prolong the rift or make it wider. And if by chance it gets passionate, all the better.
> 
> I'm new to all this stuff too - we've been married 19 years - the last 6-8 months have been really rough. What I've written here is just what I've experienced and thought through over the past few months. I'm sure someone's gonna slam me for being naive, too nice, oblivious, whatever. That said, this past weekend seemd to have been a positive turning point but we'll see.
> 
> Good luck Under!


Thanks for chiming in.
A lot has happened to ME in the past couple weeks. The mistake that I've been making (and it seems your are too), is that I've refused to believe her words, and did not make the necessary detachment. 
If I would have known, what I know now..... The FIRST time she said "I'm confused about whether or not YOU are what I want", I should have packed her bags, and told her to come back when she figured it out. Instead, I accepted the challenge of trying to see why she didn't love me. She wrapped me into her web, and used whatever tactic she could think of, in order to keep her in a compromised position, while she kept me emotionally away from her.
Eventually, she took the physical away too.
I don't want pity sex, nor do I wat pity hugs. Unfortunately, I was getting pity hugs and sex, and thought I was getting love from a woman that wanted ME. NO, she wanted a roof over her head, and nothing more.
Looking back now, I see that she basically quit her marriage. I was blinded by her actions, and stopped paying attention to what mattered to ME. No longer were we having dinner together as a family. I was taking HER out, because she allowed me that privilege. She hasn't offered ME a cup of coffee in months. Yet, she OFFERED ME the opportunity to go shopping and lunch with her. 
Get the picture?
Sooner or later you wake up.

I woke up and realized that she was faking her marriage. I listened to some of the suggestions here, and thought they wefre harsh. They weren't harsh at all.
Ask yourself..... What's worse?.... Being a doormat,and having someone make a jerk out of you, so you can have the honor of their company?
Or holding your head up high, and letting them know that you deserve more than what you're getting?

If I were you, I'd turn down the pitty sex, and tell her that you don't need it anymore. let her see that you're starting to detach. You don't have to leave your home, but you should start doing other things. I haven't spoken to my wife in a week. She's wondering why I'm not chasing her.


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## jayde

UR . . . I just saw the last few postings in the other string - i didn't realize how much has gotten worse. Sorry to hear that.
A lot of this **** doesn't really have to be that hard - with the head games she's playing, etc.

I did see that you were feeling in a good place - GLAD to hear that. It seems a lot of things have become more clear for you - and therefore in a better position to make decisions that are right for you. Enjoy the shore next week!


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## Undertheradar

jayde said:


> UR . . . I just saw the last few postings in the other string - i didn't realize how much has gotten worse. Sorry to hear that.
> A lot of this **** doesn't really have to be that hard - with the head games she's playing, etc.
> 
> I did see that you were feeling in a good place - GLAD to hear that. It seems a lot of things have become more clear for you - and therefore in a better position to make decisions that are right for you. Enjoy the shore next week!


Yes, I do feel so much better. I have 100% accepted the fact that I don't need what I'm getting. I stopped the chase, and that's the first step.

I've been working out every night. It's summer here in NY, and the weather's been nice. I come home from work, spend some time with the kiddies, a then go work on ME! I take my bike, and go where the sun shines, the air is fresh, and the ocean is flowing.
She could spend all her time enjoying whatever life she's looking for.

I encouraged her to take the "challenge", and go see if the grass was as green as she thinks it is.
So far, she hasn't accepted it.


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## turnera

Just make sure you have a deadline.


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## LongWalk

Magnoliagirl wrote:


> I read alot here on TAM and I'm amazed at the common threads of stories. I'm fascinated by patterns like the WS ones and their scripts. Or the checked out spouses ones.


How many difference scripts have you learned?


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