# War Stories



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What are "war stories"?

They are events soldiers witness as they execute their tours of duty. There are war stories in wars obviously. Did you ever think that war stories exist in marriage and other relationships?

They do.

Most of us have heard the "7 different versions of an accident" among 7 eyewitnesses. How is that possible? Isn't there objective truth? Isn't there one version that is reliable and unshakeable? Is the job of our justice system to get that objective truth?

Or, is the truth a bit more nuanced and subject to personal experience?

Like most of life, I think this concept exists on a continuum.

Did this person have sex with that person? Well, clearly they did or they didn't. So, yes, there is truth. But, what about things that are less concrete? Was this or that behavior disrespectful? Does it depend on the frame of mind of the perpetrator? Does intent matter?

How do we reconcile past events?

As you might suspect, I'm one of those guys that really works to get to the "truth". I'm medically trained. I use the scientific method. I form a hypothesis. I search for clues/data/evidence. I form opinions. I've been known to share them (from time to time)

What about in a family?

How do we reconcile with people we've hurt? Or - perhaps more importantly - with people that have hurt us?

Do we argue with their feelings and perception - desperately trying to vindicate ourselves with evidence and persuasion?

What I'm getting at here is that I read a sentence on Marriage Builders that actually changed my life. In the Love Busters area, Dr. Willard Harley speaks of "disrespectful judgements" as a Love Buster. What is a disrespectful judgement? Who would actually want to disrespectfully judge someone they love?

As I dug in and read, I realized that someone would be "me"

EVERY SINGLE TIME I bring up "evidence" and try to "prove" that someone or something happened that "caused" this or that, I move closer to crowding the other person from their point of view.

And, that.... is a de facto disrespectful judgement.

Part of "letting go" is leaving the other person to live their own life, form their own opinion, and respect it.

Of course, that does not mean we have to agree with it.

But, fighting for "our version" is a form of disrespect.

And, insisting on our version of past events is NOT reconciliation - it's disrespect.

We really only can go forward. The only person we own is ourselves. It's liberating, but it's also scary.

What if they don't agree?

Is that on us or them?

If we believe it's on us? That's a one-way ticket to emotional hell.

If it's on them... we set them free to love us in the way they can. Maybe it's not enough. As painful as that might be, then we have the data we need.

Be careful on war stories. I have done incalculable damage in using my brainpower and recall to argue people down. They are entitled to their feelings and perceptions - as I am to mine.

Life is much better this way.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Brilliant post.

A big breakthrough with me was accepting Mrs.C's version of events is every bit as much the truth to her as mine is to me. That it cannot be fixed is as much the truth to her as my truth that it can.

I still disagree with her truth but accepting its validity to her and stopping myself trying to change it. Huge difference to my mindset. I am not "there" yet but I believe that one thing has been my biggest step so far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Ouch.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> Ouch.


He and I are working on this in the other thread


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Conrad said:


> He and I are working on this in the other thread


This was a stake through my heart. 

Sometimes, I take my learning, here, a little too literal. Like, I shouldn't "be okay" with ANYthing that reminds me of posOW. 

The fact is, regardless of who knew, or instigated it, or condoned the affair, my husband is THE ONE who had the affair. It's no one's fault, but his own.

Judging everyone that knew about it is nothing more than detrimental.

Afterall, I was the same POS. I'm sure my participation on TAM really isn't appreciated by him.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> I'm sure my participation on TAM really isn't appreciated by him.


That's not what he said.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> That's not what he said.


No he didn't.

Katy - read his thread.

He didn't say that at all.

Get to 50,000 feet.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

I am so black and white! I know one way, and one way only. I know how to be indifferent. I know how to divorce someone. I don't know how to reconcile. WHY can't I find a gray area?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> I am so black and white! I know one way, and one way only. I know how to be indifferent. I know how to divorce someone. I don't know how to reconcile. WHY can't I find a gray area?


It requires self-regulation - and keeping your eye on the ball.

And, yes, it's a process.

If I may, you are walking in Mavash's shoes.

This is her story.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> I am so black and white! I know one way, and one way only. I know how to be indifferent. I know how to divorce someone. I don't know how to reconcile. WHY can't I find a gray area?


Sadly yes I can relate. I know how to dump someone, cut them off, be mean, indifferent, the works but working problems out? Forget it. I'd rather run away. Still would actually but yes it's called self regulation. Whenever I feel the urge to run I challenge myself to do something different.

Stay and discuss it. Sometimes I think I might choke on the words but I say them. This ain't easy either.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

It's time for, yet, another therapist, then. This one can't help me with confrontation. She thinks I'm doing "just fine".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> It's time for, yet, another therapist, then. This one can't help me with confrontation. She thinks I'm doing "just fine".


When you see more than they do, it's time for a change.

Trust that still small voice.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

This is an interesting post from you, Conrad. ...it is sort of refreshing in a way.

I understand what you are saying...in fact, Sassie said this to me several times while he was having his affair and gettng ready to leave me. His Tart is a psychology PHD student, and they would often talk about making "statements of judgement". For instance, according to Sassie, I was not allowed to tell him that certain things he was doing were "bad" or "wrong"....because those are statements of judgement.  So, I reworded things....and said: "When you stay at work late with your Tart, I feel jealous/sad/mad/insecure'/'blah'/'blah'". ...instead of saying, "Stopping at your grad student's apartment after work is wrong." 

I think the difference was this: at that point he didn't care if his actions were making me feel jealous/sad/mad/insecure'/'blah'/'blah'". I think there comes a point, though, when someone actions deserve to be judged. We are all judged by our actions and inactions. Some things are just wrong. <--statement of judgement. 

In a way, I sort of feel like this post should be part of the reconciliation forum. It is good advice for people who are trying to reconcile with their spouse....where BOTH spouses are on-board for the reconciliation. When both spouses are trying to reconcile, I agree that it is important to limit our statements of judgement. 

But, many of the people on this part of the forum on not in that place in their relationship. Many of us need to know that the actions/inaction of our spouses were wrong... It doesn't mean we need to speak that fact out-loud to them or let that fact marinate in our brains. Perhaps our former/estranged spouse has a different perspective than us...but, if we are not working toward reconciliation, does that really matter?  


But, I will also say that it is refreshing to hear you suggest that even your own personal version of the "the truth" may not be the actual truth. No one person has all the answers...and no one person's path is the same as another. We all do things our own way in life. ...so, while we all are here to offer and receive advice from others, none of us is a 'guru' with all the answers to everything in life. ...and it is, in my opinion, dangerous to treat one person's advice/words of wisdom as gospel. It leads to people trying to follow a set of procedures just to gain praise/validation from another. When you are hurting so badly, you are just looking for someone who has all the answers...someone who will tell you what to do to make the pain go away. But, no one has all the answers...and no one person can tell you what the "right" course of action is....people can offer advice and an outside prespective, but that's it. We all have to be true to ourselves, and let ourselves feel the feelings that we are feeling, and find our own way through this process....in the healthiest manner possible. 

At the end of this process, we will only have ourselves to answer to. .

In the words of the late, great Mr. Sinatra... "I did it mmmmmmmmmmmmy way."


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> It's time for, yet, another therapist, then. This one can't help me with confrontation. She thinks I'm doing "just fine".


I need more details before I could answer this.


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## soca70 (Oct 30, 2012)

Conrad - I agree with the general consensus here. Actions are a fact but can be interpreted differently for different versions of the "truth" by each party.

I often think what my STBX's thread would be like and the response from the board. Probably "Run for the hills and take Soca to the cleaners while you're at it!"

Maybe most X's and STBX's of ours would have versions that reflect a very different perspective. Obviously, whatever their version of the "truth" was, it was a more untenable situation for them as they are the ones that left us.

The difference here I think is that we are now willing to start looking for the actual "truth" and to recognize, own, and take corrective action for our faults. As jpr states, this seems to be something that would be more useful for reconciliation as at this point most of the STBX's are not willing to work towards this goal with us anymore. So the upside is for us to take away our own "truths" for future relationships.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I need more details before I could answer this.


I'll ask you a question in my thread...let me find it.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

See, this is where the book the Fifth Agreement was a total "A-ha" for me. Click, snap, get it now. And it applies to my entire life. 

People live in their own world, in their own story, in their own lives.That story is true for them, but it's relative truth for you because it's not your story.


The truth is you have no idea what is going on in the mind of others. What they are thinking, feeling, dreaming. They are busy writing their own story, and their main character is themselves.

How they see you is the image they want you to play in their story. If you don't agree with that image, it's upsetting.

But hey, you are doing the same thing! You are the main character in your own story, and they are a secondary character. And you want them to follow the story you have in your head, act a certain way, believe certain things, agree, etc.

No one really knows anyone. Really, truly. We only know ourselves.

So... don't take things personally. They are only arguing with their image of you. What they want you to be. To fit their story.

Click. Snap. I no longer cared if someone agrees with me. I'm not in their head, I don't care to be. I'm too busy reassuring myself of who I am. And what I believe in. 

I think this can easily get amplified online. Don't we all have an "image" of posters? Read between the lines, have an image of the kind of character they are?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad, great thread. 

I had a very similar a-ha moment this very morning. Had a running argument with STBXW about her sneaking around with OM (whom she still only half admits to and then immediately comes out with the "just good friends" line). I basically told her that after many years of marriage the respectful thing to do would have been to sit me down and tell me that she is having a relationship with OM - we are, after all, still married and living under the same roof. I also told her that we could deal with the situation far more amicably and maturely if she were open and honest rather than sneaking around. She still didn't want to open up about OM.

I ended up telling her that I thought that it was mishandling the situation to try to keep secrets but that if that was how she wanted to play it then I would respect her decision.

Letting her own her secrecy immediately made me feel better - more detached, lighter - and in fact we were much more cordial with each other after that. 

Maybe it's just me, but the head post really resonates with me after that conversation. I think she's wrong and foolish but she is entitled to her view and her way of dealing with things. 

My only question is this - when you're dealing with a WAW/H who is clearly completely fog bound, do you respect the fog perspective even though it is based on complete fantasy? I would say "yes", not because I think it is a valid perspective but because 1. they must fully own their foolishness and 2. "what you resist persists" and challenging the fog-bound thinking only strengthens it.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

jpr - GREAT post! LOL re: marinate 

Best, A12


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Conrad, great thread.
> 
> I had a very similar a-ha moment this very morning. Had a running argument with STBXW about her sneaking around with OM (whom she still only half admits to and then immediately comes out with the "just good friends" line). I basically told her that after many years of marriage the respectful thing to do would have been to sit me down and tell me that she is having a relationship with OM - we are, after all, still married and living under the same roof. I also told her that we could deal with the situation far more amicably and maturely if she were open and honest rather than sneaking around. She still didn't want to open up about OM.
> 
> ...


Volt,

We are actors in the stories of others - as deejov points out.

So, we have influence.

And, we should strive to be effective.

Countermeasures to the fog are available - and should be utilized - if that is what we choose.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Objective reality vs subjective reality.

The marriage exists = objective. It is there. There is tangible evidence. Society and government acknowledges. 

The marriage can not be saved = subjective. This is true inside the mind of one spouse, but may not be in the mind of the other.

Pushing our subjective reality onto another is disrespectful, yes. It can be offensive. It tells them that we think our subjective reality is more real than their's. And if that is true, then there is a superior/inferior situation or a sane/insane one. How arrogant!

Finding where those two subjective truths overlap can lead us to an objective truth - outside of us.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

zillard said:


> Pushing our subjective reality onto another is disrespectful, yes. It can be offensive. It tells them that we think our subjective reality is more real than their's. And if that is true, then there is a superior/inferior situation or a sane/insane one. How arrogant!


The implication of that is that the fog is a valid perception of reality and we should respect the views of the WAW/H and not try to do anything to de-fog them.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

zillard said:


> The marriage can not be saved = subjective. This is true inside the mind of one spouse, but may not be in the mind of the other.
> 
> Pushing our subjective reality onto another is disrespectful, yes. It can be offensive. It tells them that we think our subjective reality is more real than their's. And if that is true, then there is a superior/inferior situation or a sane/insane one. How arrogant!


For the first 4 months of our "separation", my wife had that same subjective reality that the marriage couldn't be saved. She pushed it hard on me, and it was terribly offensive in just the way you describe. But...

I finally realized the converse... The marriage can be saved = subjective. I realized that I was trying to push that on her just as hard as she was pushing on me, and that it was just as offensive.


Pb.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> The implication of that is that the fog is a valid perception of reality and we should respect the views of the WAW/H and not try to do anything to de-fog them.


The fog most definitely is a valid perception of reality... to them.

You do not have to agree with it.

Taking steps make an affair less fun and convenient may help them come out of the fog. But try telling someone in a fog that they are in a fog. Will it work?


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

jpr said:


> This is an interesting post from you, Conrad. ...it is sort of refreshing in a way.
> 
> I understand what you are saying...in fact, Sassie said this to me several times while he was having his affair and gettng ready to leave me. His Tart is a psychology PHD student, and they would often talk about making "statements of judgement". For instance, according to Sassie, I was not allowed to tell him that certain things he was doing were "bad" or "wrong"....because those are statements of judgement.  So, I reworded things....and said: "When you stay at work late with your Tart, I feel jealous/sad/mad/insecure'/'blah'/'blah'". ...instead of saying, "Stopping at your grad student's apartment after work is wrong."
> 
> ...


I am still reading "Wisdom" from de Mello, so I don't mean to come across as some sort of guru, but, doesn't he say that there is no wrong in awareness?

Why not just say "I am not ok being in a marriage with someone who engages in extramarital affairs"? You're not judging, simply making your boundary known. 

Kind of the whole, "you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it" thing?

Am I understanding this incorrectly?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> The fog most definitely is a valid perception of reality... to them.
> 
> You do not have to agree with it.
> 
> Taking steps make an affair less fun and convenient may help them come out of the fog. But try telling someone in a fog that they are in a fog. Will it work?


To ask the question is to answer it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Pbartender said:


> For the first 4 months of our "separation", my wife had that same subjective reality that the marriage couldn't be saved. She pushed it hard on me, and it was terribly offensive in just the way you describe. But...
> 
> I finally realized the converse... The marriage can be saved = subjective. I realized that I was trying to push that on her just as hard as she was pushing on me, and that it was just as offensive.
> 
> ...


I wish I had a nickel for all the times I've read someone lament that it "should have been fixable" "The problems weren't that bad", etc.

The REAL problem was a lack of attraction. And, so often, people insist on listening to what they say rather than watching what they actually do.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I wish I had a nickel for all the times I've read someone lament that it "should have been fixable" "The problems weren't that bad", etc.


Perhaps to us it should have been fixable and perhaps to us the problems weren't that bad, but...

When other person's perception of reality is that they aren't fixable and that the problems are that bad, there's really nothing left to be done except to accept that.

You can't force your subjective view of the problems on them, and the problems can never be fixed unless both people believe they can be.

_"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."_ *- Obi-Wan Kenobi*


Pb


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Part of "letting go" is leaving the other person to live their own life, form their own opinion, and respect it.


I can relate to your entire post because I used to be the way you described yourself as well.

BUT respect isn't something I've ever been able to "give" for the sake of giving.
There are ideas and beliefs that simply aren't worthy of respect.

I'd change the highlighted to "tolerate it"
and move on.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

tacoma said:


> I can relate to your entire post because I used to be the way you described yourself as well.
> 
> BUT respect isn't something I've ever been able to "give" for the sake of giving.
> There are ideas and beliefs that simply aren't worthy of respect.
> ...


I don't take your edit as disrespectful


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I wish I had a nickel for all the times I've read someone lament that it "should have been fixable" "The problems weren't that bad", etc.
> 
> The REAL problem was a lack of attraction. And, so often, people insist on listening to what they say rather than watching what they actually do.


Chip, you've mentioned that Z, yourself, The Katy's and my situations are a little unique in that their is still strong mutual attraction... 

I don't know about anyone else's case, but as much as Mrs. ReGroup thinks she hates my guts (maybe she does) I know that she's very attracted to me and vice a versa... does that ever go away?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Chip, you've mentioned that Z, yourself, The Katy's and my situations are a little unique in that their is still strong mutual attraction...
> 
> I don't know about anyone else's case, but as much as Mrs. ReGroup thinks she hates my guts (maybe she does) I know that she's very attracted to me and vice a versa... does that ever go away?


Never did for me.

And, all the stuff you describe and see from her - I've seen.

Staystrong will be quick to point out my wife wasn't physically unfaithful. This is true, but as I look back on our relationship, I can easily say I would have forgiven it IF I learned this stuff after she'd done it.

Zillard's analogy of the mobile is what your woman craves. You remain solid and steadfast in the center - as the rock. She will learn to trust that sturdiness and lean on you for strength. She THINKS she hates it now.

Watch what she does - not what she says.

You're getting more respect from her now than you have in years - likely at any point in your relationship.

Think that's an accident?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Staystrong will be quick to point out my wife wasn't physically unfaithful. This is true, but as I look back on our relationship, I can easily say I would have forgiven it IF I learned this stuff after she'd done it.


That's interesting. Hmm.. I must have misinterpreted what you said in another thread: "If my wife had been physically unfaithful, it would have been a different story." Or something like that. I took that to mean you would have kicked her to the curb.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> Objective reality vs subjective reality.
> 
> The marriage exists = objective. It is there. There is tangible evidence. Society and government acknowledges.
> 
> ...


Great post.

Are marriage vows an objective reality or subjective reality?


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Are marriage vows an objective reality or subjective reality?


The words of the vows are objective. What those vows mean, and how they're interpreted by each person is subjective, however.

My wife once tried to tell to me that my marriage vows meant nothing, because I was making a promise to a god I don't believe in. How can she possibly know what those vows mean (or don't mean) to me, if she doesn't understand my beliefs and faith?


Pb.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> That's interesting. Hmm.. I must have misinterpreted what you said in another thread: "If my wife had been physically unfaithful, it would have been a different story." Or something like that. I took that to mean you would have kicked her to the curb.


My personal light bulb moment came at work while I was sitting at my desk.

I had lost my cool a week or two prior and cursed my wife vehemently at about 2:30am and I basically emptied my vocabulary.

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate - right?

If you were my defense attorney, you could point out that it was provoked by years of profanity and hand gestures during disagreements that I had asked, begged, and demanded this particular disrespectful behavior cease.

What I realized was that I had given myself permission to behave in a completely unacceptable manner. The light bulb came on when I started getting angry at my therapist for not warning me about the impact such behavior had on someone with my wife's childhood history.

So, I'm going to blame my therapist for not warning me against behaving in a completely unacceptable and disgusting manner?

Who would do such a thing?

Answer is pretty clear. A blameshifter.

The very quality I despised most in her was mine to own.

When I had this realization, I started shaking and then began weeping.

Waking up is painful.

A friend asked me if I'd always been an angry person.

Again, I realized that I WAS.

So, much like HappyKaty, I called up my wife and told her I needed to see her immediately.

Of course, she distrusted my motives, but hesitantly came over.

I issued the most heartfelt apology of my life - owning my issues - and then kissed her gently on the cheek and went up to bed to sleep for what felt like nearly a week.

I have never been the same from that day forward.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I think I need to start my own thread. Hmmm where to put it?


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

This is a hard lesson to learn and yet I have to wonder what if their version of the truth is a flat out lie? I've been told multiple reasons as to why we didn't work out, accusing me of xyz, when he is the one who did xyz not me. It's very clearly false information and it makes me see red every time. Given he has also told me on multiple occasions while married "I lie to everyone. I've lied so much and I'm proud of that fact because it gets stuff done...oh not you though. I don't lie to you, just everyone else". Word for word. So when the lies start about me it is hard for me to be indifferent.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

BFGuru said:


> This is a hard lesson to learn and yet I have to wonder what if their version of the truth is a flat out lie? I've been told multiple reasons as to why we didn't work out, accusing me of xyz, when he is the one who did xyz not me. It's very clearly false information and it makes me see red every time. Given he has also told me on multiple occasions while married "I lie to everyone. I've lied so much and I'm proud of that fact because it gets stuff done...oh not you though. I don't lie to you, just everyone else". Word for word. So when the lies start about me it is hard for me to be indifferent.


What can you do about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Barring punching him in the face when he makes false accusations against me? Well, nothing, but ugh, there have been times I have snapped and called him a pompous fvcking a$$hole. I haven't hit him either, but it makes me seethe and I can't seem to get past that. I hate liars. I do not run my life by lying. I try to maintain honesty with all people because I hate being lied to. I even have a hard time lying to get people to a surprise party. So the lies really get to me, when they are about me.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

BFGuru said:


> *it makes me seethe* and I can't seem to get past that. *I hate liars.* I do not run my life by lying. I try to maintain honesty with all people because *I hate being lied to*. I even have a hard time lying to get people to a surprise party. So the *lies really get to me*, when they are about me.


Why?


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Because my mother lied. She lied to her entire family about me and trying to take the high road, by not trashing her to her sisters cost me an entire family. They told me to fvck off and it has been lonely ever since. 

In some respect his lies are not only doing that, as his family now hates me, but they are also knocking my integrity. Something I have tried hard to maintain through the years. 

It is a guttural reaction I have to lying. When it is about me and then add on top of it to me...I can't see straight.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BF,

That actually sounds like an emotional exile.

"I see it differently" works really well.

And, it doesn't cost you emotional energy.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I have a new way of thinking about lies.

People can say whatever they want to me.
Who decides it is a lie?
I do.

That kinda threw me. I don't like being lied to either.
But if I'm the one who decides it is a lie, then what am I really doing?

Still pondering what this means.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> I know it's none of my business, but I want to know what you are meaning here. Maybe she will ask or provide more info?
> 
> Isn't "truth" subjective?


Some truth is subjective.

Others is objective.

Real conflict may occur when someone attempts to wedge their subjective truth into the mind of another.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Some truth is subjective.
> 
> Others is objective.
> 
> Real conflict may occur when someone attempts to wedge their subjective truth into the mind of another.



This. Just happened to me this morning.
"Why are you on that site" who are you talking to all the time.

Trying to explain what I am doing. Has little to do with marriage, but has everything to do with it. 
"don't give me pyscho babble".

Twenty steps backwards. Yes, you see me a certain way and that will never change. And I can't change it. So I need to stop caring if you see that I have set you free. It doesn't matter how many times I see that I have set you free, and my actions say that I have set you free, you still believe that I assume, judge, and see YOU a certain way.

That's your choice. I forgot a big rule. It has to be a safe person. My bad. And I even explained that. What is a safe person? Not you. A safe person will tell me when I'm being untrue, and put me back on my path. Honesty required. Will disagree with me, but the goal is the same. 

You call it physcho babble because you say you don't understand it. Any of it. So keep your judgements to yourself, if you do not understand it. Yes, that's me judging you. You can't call it stupid just because you don't understand it. Boundaries exerted, anger is fading. I don't understand being an alcoholic, but I strive to do so better. I don't call AA pyscho babble. So I regulate myself. Let it be. 

Point of view, war stories. It's about marriage, but it's not.
I needed this reminder. This is for me, no one else. 

I honestly believe (today) that people never change how they see you. Really, truly. That's okay. I just can't give it up. It still matters to me what people think of me. I need more help with that.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> This. Just happened to me this morning.
> "Why are you on that site" who are you talking to all the time.
> 
> Trying to explain what I am doing. Has little to do with marriage, but has everything to do with it.
> ...


Think about how you see them.

Let's play a hypothetical. Let's say your husband actually does "get it together" the way you always hoped he could.

Would you truly view him any differently?

Or would you simply admire the way he's disciplined himself to overcome his demons?

As you can tell, I've walked this mile also.

Do I think Janie has anger issues? Of course. Anyone with her childhood would struggle with anger.

Do I know what she's capable of?

Yes - she is more than capable of coldly ripping my heart out, if given the opportunity.

Now that we're able to communicate better and respect boundaries, does this "really" change the way I view her?

Of course not.

But, it certainly does make our time together enjoyable.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> I see I let myself slip into believing that we can change others. I didn't even realize it. I guess acceptance is the only way. We cannot change others views of us. We can only change how we respond. Pretty sad, in a way, since, if they believe an untruth, they will always think we are the untruth.
> 
> Finding what their boundaries are and then find enough proof, whether true or not, as long as it is believable, can lead someone to control the thoughts and actions of another. It's insidious and quite thought provoking. Thank you, Conrad.


2nuf,

I read something Willard Harley wrote that - literally - took my breath away.

When we continue to badger the other person to accept our subjective truth, it's the emotional equivalent of a disrespectful judgement.

Really an attractive presentation to endear you to others, no?

LOL

That's ok - I'm now on task for the next thirty years - considering I just blew the last 30


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Conrad, (and everyone else) this is what I struggle with:
here's the whole bare truth. I admit the responsbility for it when due.

The way my H grew up, explains a lot of this. He spent 10 years off and on in the hospital, with ALL acute lymphatic leukemia. Final remission when he was 15. Now go off and try to have a life... maybe it will come back again, maybe it won't. 

Coddling does not describe what his mom did. Understandibly. He is the golden child. Whatever his heart wanted, family would do. 

When he got to his late 20's, family tried to nudge him. Okay, you are probably gonna live now. Cured. Get a life. Become an independent. Drinking numbed whatever was going on, off and on for a long long time.

He's now 42. I knew his mom for 10 yrs before we dated. He was sober when we got together. But mommy still loomed in the background. Going behind my back to pay bills when he couldn't. 

We started having serious problems when we had a 2nd term pregnancy loss. Then 2 more. Drinking solved all his worries. 

And I did everything wrong. I acted like his mom. Totally the wrong thing to do. Tried everything to get him to stop drinking, "meet my needs or I'm leaving". 

During MC, this came up. He thinks of me like his mother. Yup, good reasons for that. Doesn't matter that he asked me to do these things. I did NOT know at the time that it was a way of being PA. If you dont accept any responsibility for your life, it's not your fault if it goes wrong. Co dependency and the rescue. It's all there.
I did all of it. Blindly. With faith that I was doing what he wanted.

Somewhere I started to wonder what happened to the me in there. Way too late. 


I let him go. You are free. No more judgments. Be whoever you want to be. I fired him as a husband. Stopped wearing rings. Went to therapy. Lots of it. Still going. Finding my way back to my center. No more saving someone else. Saving me now.

I have not done anything 'motherly' in well over 5 months. I've been regulating my very own behavior very carefully. I come here to get a second opinion. Just to make sure. If I slip, I correct it. I apologize. 

Just today, he says I was talking to him like a 2 year old explaining working on yourself and finding support for that. 

It hit me like a brick wall. And it made me angry. Because he stopped drinking again 3 weeks ago, and has tried to assert himself as "husband" again, asking that I behave like a wife. 
Yes, he hugs, kisses, cuddles, talks about the future, and is manning up to the point of setting boundaries for how his WIFE should behave. He will come snuggle in my bed, make endless comments about sex, but wont' "go there". Says he is too afraid and gun shy to take it any further. Needs time to wrap his head around not drinking.

We sleep in separate bedrooms, he won't have sex (and neither will I) but he's clear that it is unacceptable, period, for me to seek it elsewhere. I'm supposed to be patient and sit here and act like a wife, when he views me as being motherly, so there is no sex, and never will be.

My boundary is... that's unacceptable to me. 

He conned me (yes, conned me) into putting aside the divorce papers and selling the house. I'm ready to go. He asked me to concede him 6 months. Let him get sober first. 

I don't see him changing his view of me, ever. I don't expect him to. But you cannot ask me to behave like a wife if you don't even know what a wife is. 

I'm not taking this too black and white either. I flat out asked him this morning how he views me. Gave him options. Room-mate. Friend. Wife. Lover. Mother. Sister. 

Mother was his answer. I'm out. I am already a mother. My own son is more independent than he is. I can certainly be the mother. 

He isn't going to get 6 months. He will get what I would give my own son. Not what his mother would do. Which is what he isn't understanding. My version of being a mother is tough love. Not coddling for life. 

Anyways, that's my struggle with how he views me. Nobody to blame but myself, and I can't change it so I'll just accept it. 

I don't want to be what he sees. I cannot be even room-mates with someone who won't see me for me. I just cannot. I'm too vulnerable to being sucked into being what they see.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov,

His road to maturity would be very long and rocky.

We do cuddle with our mothers when we're scared and need comfort.

Here's the sad thing.

Bonding circles ( necessary for security) aren't entirely complete until age 29 for those people that have GOOD parents.

Heaven help the rest.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Heaven help the rest.

Yes, that's it.

Heaven. Not me. I wasn't put here to save him. So why do I keep hoping and trying? Deep down, I do. Meh, I know the answer. Because I still think that's all I deserve. My best is pretty lacking, today. 

Need to do some more work on me. I will get there. 
going back to 50,000 feet.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Bonding circles ( necessary for security) aren't entirely complete until age 29 for those people that have GOOD parents.
> 
> *Heaven help the rest.*


My codependent fixer part REALLY wishes it could.

But yes... that would equate me with heaven. Which I am not.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I know it's none of my business, but I want to know what you are meaning here. Maybe she will ask or provide more info?
> 
> Isn't "truth" subjective?


Not all truth is subjective. Some is very objective and these are the things he is lying about. Then using them as excuses as to why I suck and why he should leave. 

You are right, it does exhaust emotional energy, but calling him a lying fvcking piece of sh!t, while he continues to deny the girlfriend is still cathartic.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BFGuru said:


> Not all truth is subjective. Some is very objective and these are the things he is lying about. Then using them as excuses as to why I suck and why he should leave.
> 
> You are right, it does exhaust emotional energy, but calling him a lying fvcking piece of sh!t, while he continues to deny the girlfriend is still cathartic.


Clearly, if he's banging her then, it's objective truth.

And, concealing it is almost as disgusting as doing it.

With that said, do you realize it's about him and not you?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> deejov,
> 
> His road to maturity would be very long and rocky.
> 
> ...


Darn Conrad.

I am still bonding with my parents and I am 48.

But I do have awesome parents!!! 

I guess that is why they have been married for 52 years.....

My Mom and Dad went on a cruise for 1 month in march. My Dad is very hyper, very driven. My mother has the patience of a saint. They have owned a successful consulting firm together since 1976.

I asked my Mom how was it being locked up with my Dad for over a month expecting to hear grief or a few laughs.

My mother looks directly at me and tells me how they reconnected on many levels and they are more madly in love than ever.

I walked out of their house amazed.....

I live to have that level of satisfaction with my marriage.

But it is one of my goals. 

Have a great Easter buddy.

HM64


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Happy,

Happy Easter to the Happyman!

Wish we'd found each other when I lived up there.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Conrad said:


> With that said, do you realize it's about him and not you?


This is good perspective for me. It seems a lot less like a personal attack when framed like this.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Happy,
> 
> Happy Easter to the Happyman!
> 
> Wish we'd found each other when I lived up there.


The feeling is Mutual. Enjoy the rest of the weekend.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My mate is all over the place.

It's all him. He has problems. It's all me. I had issues. I'm awesome, he wants out, he misses me, he's done, I'm a ghost, he's a hero...something like that.

I hate his voice.
I hate his smell.
I hate his presence.

Hate is just Love with pain and anger.

His lies exhaust me. His reality is only seen through some dark glasses. He shows growth and then slides back to the start.

I don't want to see this. I don't want to know him any longer.

So much pain. Soooo much doubt. So many lies. Trust was broken the first week he moved in and pulled some shady crap after a night out.

Broken. So godam broken.

I tried my best. Then I tried some more. Listened to his needs and met them...for 2 years...out of Love.

Then BOOM. Explosion of his truth. Fine. I can handle truth, but cruelty? That's something else.

He has the victim mode down to a science. Saying cruel words with a sad face, making me feel like it was MY FAULT!  NO MORE! No more blame shifting. No more gaslighting. No more projections from his sorry ass.

I have never been so hurt by someone in my life. Even with how sh1tty my father was, he was honest about his attitude. He didn't lie and leave. He was just a bastard and was a bastard until the day he died. I understood and loved him anyway.

But this! Pretending to love me. Pretending to want me. Pretending to want this life and then saying it was all a mistake. That he never loved me. Never wanted me. Doesn't want this life. This beautiful life we've made. FOR WHAT? To rent a room somewhere and sleep with skanky girls? Women won't put up with his crap, just young ladies who have no idea--- but will as they mature. 

He's the old man at the bar now. An old man who has left his wife and family twice now. Emotionally constipated, unable to love anyone because he doesn't love himself.

I loved him like no other. 

I protected our marriage.

I honored him as the man in this home.

I love him still, I suppose. But I can't forget...even though I'm trying to forgive.

I am not scared of being alone. I am not scared of being single.

But I'll not be so open with trust. I'll not be so open with myself. I am tired of being thrown away. I'm done.

He's in the shower now, after a night out. I'm glad he didn't drive home at his drunkest, but i think he's still drunk. The last time, I laid into him as I saw his car parked at a diagonal over a bucket. But then my brain starts. Where was he staying? Who was he with? What was he doing?

WHY DO I CARE? 

At least I've been honest about myself and my whereabouts when I do not come home.

I don't know why I expect the same from him, he lies about the smallest shet.

Sorry, I thnk I'm rambling.

I feel depression setting in. My nerves are shot. My heart is in so many pieces. I don't want to be touched. I don't want kind words. I don't want understanding. I just want to hit something.

Preferably his face.

Life goes on, I know this. Once it's done, I'll be better off- at least that's what I tell myself.

But....he was my dream. The only man I ever really loved or wanted or trusted.

Godam. Never again. I know it's not good to say "never"...but...it will be a long time coming...and to be quite honest, I don't want to go through this again.

Today is Easter. I have to be "on" for the kids. I'd rather stay in bed and just cry.

I am not lovin' life right now. On the contrary.

I guess the only way out is through. I just hope i make it to the other side.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When in turmoil, turns towards stillness.

Dropping delusion is really really difficult.

I've heard it's much healthier to believe in something - rather than someone.

Because "someone" will hurt you.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes. 

I try. I believe in something...but...so stubborn about religion. When will that end? I do not know.

He doesn't even realize what he's done. I want him to be miserable forever--- that is so not like me.

I feel myself spiraling out of control...on the inside. On the outside, everyone thinks i'm ok. When can I have a breakdown? Never any time.

Oye. I have thought about running away. If not for the children, I'd already be gone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Yes.
> 
> I try. I believe in something...but...so stubborn about religion. When will that end? I do not know.
> 
> ...


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/68411-submitting-truth.html

Try this - seriously.

Would love to talk about it with you.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I read it.

I did and do and have and will continue to keep myself in check. Almost 2 years of deep therapy helped me so much. I saw my issues...apologized...and worked my ass off to NEVER repeat them. And I didn't. He will admit that.

But he never got therapy. He never worked on him. He just leaves. And berates me on the way out. In pain. In sadness.

We're just so broken. This marriage needs to die. I don't know the future...I just know that this situation needs to die.

I don't throw his shet in his face. I have always tried to guide him in the right way....self love, self acceptance, truth.

But he digs his heels in. At some point, I had to give up.

He's an alcoholic, a self-loathing man. Loving him broke me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I've walked that mile.

It feels like all that's around you is rubble.

When you are still with it, what does your voice tell you?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My voice tells me that this is ALL WRONG 

He should work on himself...but I can't control that.

We shouldn't throw this all away--- he even admitted that the last 2 years were awesome. So then WTF?? 

I meant my vows. He said he didn't. 

I can't forget the lies and hurt and words he's said. IT MAKES ME SO ANGRY!!! this could have all been so different had he just come to me and said he was broken...that he needed to work on himself....needed space....but he didn't. He blamed ME. 

I feel like I'm just spiraling out of control.

I can't say anything to him about it. Pride? fear? Rejection? I dunno.

I don't know what I want. He doesn't know what he wants. I know that THIS marriage needs to end....doesn't it?

Something hit me like a f9cking bus yesterday while organizing his papers to serve him Monday. If he hasn't "gotten it" yet or accepted things yet, he will when he's holding a stack of legal papers....maybe? 

I'm so lost.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It sounds like you need to serve the papers, and then observe what happens.

That's what I'm hearing.

And, I know you love him.

I remember laying in my bed crying like a little baby because she didn't come to pick up her mail.

And, I was so looking forward to seeing her.

She simply didn't get it.

But, I'd tried everything to get her to listen.

Except listening to my inner voice and doing what I had to do.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. I know. 

He'll probably sign. And then we can move forward with it.

I just....hate him.

And that isn't a bad thing when i say it. It's just so much LOVE with pain and anger masking it.

I so badly want to go put my arms around him. But I won't.

When did life become such a godam game.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

that_girl said:


> *I guess the only way out is through. I just hope i make it to the other side.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Of course the only way is through.
> 
> ...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I already am great.

But I have to mourn this or it will hit me down the road.

My kids are taken care of. I've been a single mom most of my adult life.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Yea. I know.
> 
> He'll probably sign. And then we can move forward with it.
> 
> ...


Just observe what he does. No predictions/defensiveness/bracing, etc. Just let it flow.

I have found that when we're dealing with broken people, the key is cracking the code.

The only way they decide to do something is if they hit bottom.

This could be part of that path for him.

And, yes, it's a huge waste.

As you might suspect, my wife eventually looked at starting over. Yes, it took her kissing and holding other men to realize she had absolutely no interest in that - or in them.

This is likely part of giving him the space to miss you.

Limping along in the current 2 year lather-rinse-repeat won't work for you. He won't get uncomfortable enough to truly act in his own self-interest.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes. My sister tells me that he needs to move out. Sit in a room with his blow up bed, alone. No people to come home to. No family. Nothing. 

I am trying not to give him the connection he so reaches out for. He wants to hang out when the kids go to bed...I move into my "mom cave". Space for one. I go out for a smoke, he follows...talking my ear off about his day 

He needs to hit bottom. I have hit bottom 2 years ago . It changed my total existence. Omg. I am forever grateful to my amazing therapist. Had she and I not clicked, I wouldn't have looked for another. I was that stubborn.

Healing myself was the best thing I've ever done for me. Had I not done that, this situation would have damn near killed me.

I am just mourning, I suppose. 

He is just in some la-la land. He won't be on Monday. Those papers are very sobering. Omg. I can't even read them without bawling my eyes out. Dang.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Yes. My sister tells me that he needs to move out. Sit in a room with his blow up bed, alone. No people to come home to. No family. Nothing.
> 
> I am trying not to give him the connection he so reaches out for. He wants to hang out when the kids go to bed...I move into my "mom cave". Space for one. I go out for a smoke, he follows...talking my ear off about his day
> 
> ...


Completely understood.

It doesn't have to be this way. And, it should not be this way.

But, we spend our lives trying not to suffer. Ironically, suffering is truly the best teacher.

He needs to experience the consequences of what he's done.

What happens after that is up to him - and him alone.

And, it's high time.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. I think a lot of the anger is aimed at myself. I didn't trust my gut on certain issues-- didn't want to be the "old me". But that's strange because I read vibes really well...and because I was so worried about suspecting him of things that I could very well be making up because of MY OWN ISSUES, I ignored a lot.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Signs of infidelity. Signs of shadiness. Signs of lies.

I took him at his word. Shame on me. BUt....isn't that what a good spouse does?

So. I am allowing myself to mourn my innocence. To a point. I am not hating myself, just chastising myself because I should almost ALWAYS trust my gut. And I should be allowed to express and show anger! But anger would shut him down. 

I am a passionate person. I get excited when something is up my craw or something I'm passionate about. I get loud. I get fiery. I don't fight mean....I just express. It was too much for him and he would shut down. So I learned to be quiet.

OMG I WAS QUIET FOR 2 YEARS! I think that was hollowing me out. Gotta be me. Let my freak flag fly, man.

He doesn't know me. I truly feel he doesn't know me. nor I him. Not the way we truly are. We worked so hard to be at "our best" that we lost our true selves.

Ohhhh Life. Gawd. I just need a day with good friends, a pack of smokes and a bottle of wine. Too bad my bestie is a state away.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

To get really real, it's the stuff that nobody tells you that bites.

All those sayings...

"Patience is a virtue"

"Don't sweat the small stuff'

"Moderation in all things"

The stuff that's designed to make relationships good and close ONLY applies if you are on the right road.

Being on the "wrong" road and being patience gets you what - exactly?

Most likely gets you roadkill.

And, being on the right road is being still and centered - and trusting your instincts.

Yet, we play so many games on ourselves. Our preferred outcomes. Our petty agendas, etc. The whole consumer based society is a bunch of sleeping people seeking happiness in the wrong places - outside of themselves.

And, when you are with someone that is broken.... interacting with them as if they ARE NOT BROKEN only gets you the shix end of the stick.

You are now behaving with him as he is.....

And, if you can believe it, you have likely taken the first small steps (green shoots as I call them) in securing your future - even maximizing his chances (slim as they currently are).


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Your words are so helpful to me right now, Conrad. I truly thank you.

I do doubt what I'm doing but then I know it's for the best.

I am so tired.

I am so tired of being ignored, overlooked, avoided. That's in our marriage and now. He cannot communicate unless through sex. We haven't had sex in almost 4 months. That was MY choice, not his. He stopped trying about 6 weeks ago.

I miss him. But I can't be with him as he is.

Meh. Just a day of "realness". It's good for me, I know.

But it hurts so godam bad. Dang.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Your words are so helpful to me right now, Conrad. I truly thank you.
> 
> I do doubt what I'm doing but then I know it's for the best.
> 
> ...


I truly appreciate your heartfelt confessions.

You love this man. You likely always will. That doesn't mean you can be with him, but it does mean you are duty bound to do what is best for you. And, in so doing, your love for him will compel you to do what's best for him also - now that you see this.

From this day forward let that be your lodestar.

Both of you must frontally face the consequences of your actions - and be the best parents you can be for your children.

My heart has told me from your initial post on this matter that it wasn't over. I've walked that mile.

Once I cleared away the codependent crap, I stood where you are now. I was still attracted to her. We've discussed the mutual attraction thing in other threads. It is usually the bright line that separates the couples that make it through this from those that don't have a shot.

As I've read your posts, I knew you weren't checked out. You likely never have been.

But, my observations indicate it's more difficult for a woman to bring a man to the table than the other way around.

You actually have to be tougher.

I'm glad to see that process has begun in earnest.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I am always so calm here.

Always in control.

The sensible one.

The one who remains pensive and communicative.

And I feel, at this moment, that I am going to lose my shet today.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> I am always so calm here.
> 
> Always in control.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're playing a bit of a role there, don't you think?

We all have raw animal passions inside.

Yes, they must be regulated.

But, a good primal scream every once in awhile is therapeutic.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I just never have the space! kids are up my butt all day. Can't scare them.

I haven't shown my passions in a long time. That is NOT ME. 

But yea, I feel it bubblin. I need a good cry and a good yell fest for a while. Just need to lose my shet for a minute.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> I just never have the space! kids are up my butt all day. Can't scare them.
> 
> I haven't shown my passions in a long time. That is NOT ME.
> 
> But yea, I feel it bubblin. I need a good cry and a good yell fest for a while. Just need to lose my shet for a minute.


That's what my motorcycle is for.

You know it can go 130MPH?

It's quite a rush.

You have something similar in your life?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Nope.

Never have.

Everything I had before children was self destructive.

My husband rides motorcycles. Sold his to buy the house. Blames me. I never asked him to do that. I cried when he did.

What do I have? I dunno. My words. My writing. My art. but...I'm not feelin it. I just want to yell and scream and hit something.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> My husband rides motorcycles. Sold his to buy the house. Blames me. I never asked him to do that. I cried when he did.


I've never sold either of mine. Would have hated myself for it.

Of course, that was his way of hoping he'd make you happy.

Bright-line codependence.

I think you are in California. Are you anywhere near the ocean?

Wave-jumping (even in a wetsuit if it's too cold) would literally beat the crap out you and let your scream your head off - without interruption


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes. The day he sold his moto (he raced) was like, "wtf"?

I was happy already! I am so low maintenance, it's not even funny.

He chose to stop racing because we had a baby. HIS CHOICE. Blames me.

Yea, I can get to the ocean. but it's Easter. Gotta pretend it's a holiday...for the kids.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Yes. The day he sold his moto (he raced) was like, "wtf"?
> 
> I was happy already! I am so low maintenance, it's not even funny.
> 
> ...


A good egg tossing is high stress and fun.

You can always break them on purpose and scream because it was an "accident"


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

The garage is good for losing your shet?

The time for you to shine is coming. 
I have said ... " I cannot compete with the booze. I will not win".
Desperation has made me think that was the problem, if that could be solved, then maybe maybe. 

Lots of people confirmed this for me. Even Al-Anon. It consumes more than you know of their lives. But it doesn't change the truth.
It just numbs it for them. And that is their choice. Who am I to judge that? 

If someone is too afraid to be more, shouldn't we do all we can to help them? Yes. But not at the sacrifice of your own authenticity.
That's different for everyone.

You did help him. You made him face it. And he turned away. Not from you, really, but from what you represent. Hard work, looking inside, getting real, manning up and facing your fears. 

Anger that he didn't follow through. Yeah, it's a bitter pill. But only if you swallow it. I'm betting no one else has ever made him so look hard at himself before.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I just never have the space! kids are up my butt all day.  Can't scare them.
> 
> I haven't shown my passions in a long time. That is NOT ME.
> 
> But yea, I feel it bubblin. I need a good cry and a good yell fest for a while. Just need to lose my shet for a minute.


Unless your kids are babies/toddlers this is on you.

I have 3 kids but I can and will lock myself in my closet, my car, the shower with the radio blaring, a quick drive around the block, wherever so I can cry, scream, whatever.

I've taught them its okay. I'm actually healthy. Was ONCE so stressed that I got them to join in screaming with me. I told them what I was doing and why. Challenged them to see who could get the loudest.

I'm sure they thought I was nuts but they weren't scared. I made it fun.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. That's a good idea.

I had a good cry in the shower. Bit better.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Recently I cried everyday for 3 weeks. Had I tried to hold that in? Omg!! I would have never made it. Luckily I have a big house with plenty of places to hide and cry. I always felt better afterwards.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I had a little bit of a teary moment this morning, kinda came out of no where and I allowed it to happen. Find it does a lot more damage holding it in rather then letting it out.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, not the garage. lol that's his space. 

I am letting it out to music now. 

But yea, Deejov...you are right about everything there.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Conrad and my other muses...

My war story is it is the weekend.
Similar struggles as other weekends.

I don't know if it's the struggle for him to stay off the booze, or if my H is really that anxiety ridden and miserable.

First words out of his mouth in the mornings on weekends are negative. 
Currently, it was a blame game about the power bill.
He opened the bill, got angry. Handed it to me, I paid it online. Never said a word.
He ran some grow lights to start tomatoes. Swore it only cost $20 a month to run the light. Has been leaving a lamp on all night because he likes it. The power bill went up $100. 

The thing is, he has never paid the utilities. But feels it is a-okay to spend time digging and poking and asking me why the bill is so high. Not his fault, so I must be doing something. (who cares, you don't pay the bill!)

I load the dishwasher, he rearranges it. He cleans his side of the bathroom counter only. Including the mirror. It just continues on the whole weekend.

Who cares, right? I'm trying not to. It drains my energy. I go do something else. I read, I listen to music, he follows me around. 

I'm having a TERRIBLE time letting this go. Ignoring it. It makes me angry, and I hate hate hate feeling this way. I hate the fact that he annoys me. Why does it?

If I am feeling so wonderful about myself, why can his negative energy make me feel angry, make me want to leave the house?

If I am so accepting of who he is, why does he annoy me?
It's like his brain is full of all these toxic ideas and thoughts and everytime he opens his mouth all that comes out is judgement and criticism and nothing that even resembles "happiness".

Who IS this person? And why didn't I meet him before now?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Short answer?

Because you're letting it get to you rather than standing up for yourself.

"I'm not ok with where this conversation is headed"

"I'm not ok with question about utilities you don't pay for"

"I'm not ok with having the dishwasher rearranged"

(If he persists, you stop loading it forever)

Get the idea?

What you're describing are #3's... #3's that you're tolerating.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Lately, if I stand up for myself, I find myself constantly picking at him.

I'm not ok with almost everything. 

Ouch. I think I just got it. Why does he do it more on the weekends? Because he can. I'm off mode, too relaxed. Don't want to rock the boat, cause a fight. Which is what happens almost every weekend. That's battle time. 

Okay, no more shet for me on the weekends. 

I knew this was probably on me somehow, just couldn't see it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Look weekends are tough even for us seasoned enlightened ones. You're off your routine, you're around each other more, you trigger each other, etc. I start getting antsy on Friday just anticipating some kind of disappointment even though in my case none is coming. Can't even imagine what it would be like if I were living with that level of negativity. My husband is negative too but it's aimed at himself and its minimal. Still brings me down though. It's hard when you like yourself to hang out with someone who clearly doesn't.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Camping season... one more month. 3 more weekends. I can do it, I can do it. 

I found some sugar free margarita mix made with splenda. Hidden away so on one finds it. That will be my reward. A big bottle of diet 7up and my fav gf's. And the dogs, of course. They won't tell him I was drinking LOL

Thanks for listening.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Recently I cried everyday for 3 weeks. Had I tried to hold that in? Omg!! I would have never made it. Luckily I have a big house with plenty of places to hide and cry. I always felt better afterwards.


Mavash, thank you for the resaurracne that I'm not the only one who still cries with missing and longing and aching for the "objective" love and goodness and sacred bond I once shared with my hudsband. I cannot wallow in self-pity, but it is only human and OK to greive the losss of that person you expected to spend the rest of your days with, and who seems impossibly irreplacable.

Best I can do is sendign him blessing sand loving myself, s]as best I can a day at a time.

Cheers, A12


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Conrad: 

I can’t believe you never told me about this thread, I feel like I was never invited to the party and I’m a gate crasher, rejected, abandon again...... Wait a minute... ok I realize that’s just my perspective and I’m ok now .

But really what a great subject and you really had a lot of insight and got a good subject rolling.

Through all the things that I’ve been through in my marriage and all the different roll's I have seen myself play with all the A's and R's. I agree with quite a bit of what you posted, especially the fact that you cannot keep pressing home to your partner their wrongs to you to try and validate your point of view or action. You also have to evaluate yourself as you have done.

However I disagree with the fact that the "truth" is "relevant" to the person.

I always have had a hard time understanding the philosophy that truth is relevant. To me if its relevant upon belief’s and can change according to who believes what then it’s not a "truth". I hold by President Lincoln’s statement of: We find these truths to be "self-evident" (Requiring no proof or explanation.). 

Saying that, If I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I’m holding a stone in my hand and you say that its not a stone but air. I’m going to say to you... you can believe what you want, I don’t hate you for that but I will not change my mind because I know what the "truth" is, I’m holding a stone. I don’t have to prove it to you, I don’t have to get you to agree, I can rest in the knowledge.

So a husband that beats his wife can say to the wife "it was your fault that I beat you" and mean it, believe it, but it does not mean its truth. It just means he prefers to believe a lie, to justify his wrong actions to make himself feel better. What do you do in a situation like that? I would say no R would be of any value with him until he sees the truth of his actions and that beating his wife is 100 % on him and he gets help. Yes, she could certainly do things that "trigger" his anger response but she does not make him beat her.

I have learned so much this time around with my H. I still get angry sometimes, I still hurt, I still cry once in a blue moon. I certainly still get fearful and anxious. But I also recognize that a lot of my insecurities are on me, my anxiousness is on me even some of my fear is all on me those are not necessarily the "truths". The truth is that he was a serial cheater, he was physically abusive, and psychology manipulative. But I let him do those things to me. I didn’t choose to be treated that way, but I unknowingly was an enabler to him. 

Thanks for doing this Thread, very interesting!
DYRC2


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

DYRC,

Your invite to the thread must have been scheduled for Saturday postal delivery.

Keep in mind, no one is saying truth is relative.

But, some of the truths we hold dear are - indeed - subjective. In other words, we own them. They provide the prism through which we view the world and how we see things.

In relationships, this can cause baggage.

We really only can go forward. And, we must allow others their truths. It's the only way to truly be happy.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Conrad said:


> DYRC,
> 
> Your invite to the thread must have been scheduled for Saturday postal delivery.
> 
> ...


I see said the blind man - no really I do see your point and I find it very interesting. I agree with the fact that we MUST go forward.

BTW, thanks for the scheduled invite...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

First weekend without a war story. Sort of, anyways.

Yesterday was 5 weeks of no drinking. He mentioned that he feels he is getting much better with the anxiety.

He has a new job! Starts in a few weeks. Pays well, and is 12 hr nights and days rotating, 4 on 4 off, so only about 1 weekend off a month. Means we both get some alone time, opposite days off. It's a good thing, really. He has an appt in 3 weeks with a surgeon to get his hernia fixed. Somewhere in there.

Gave our neighbor a ride on Saturday, he starts telling me how well H and I seem to getting along, things must be okay? He's fishing to see if \ when we are selling the house.

"yeah, we get along okay."

So he finally just gets blunt and asks. "no wedding rings?"

I tell the truth.
Neither of us wears rings, we sleep in separate bedrooms, and we dont' discuss it. He is trying to quit drinking. I have no idea how this going to play out.

"Thats fvcked up". Yes, it is. 
Then he asked me if that meant I was single :rofl:
He's 27. He has friends. Just sayin'

I didn't answer. I don't even know the answer.
But I"m okay with that. For now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Is it possible you're merely giving him the space to take care of his own business?

What he's doing is incredible - compared to 3-6 months ago.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I know it. I just don't quite take it as the daily truth, yet.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> I know it. I just don't quite take it as the daily truth, yet.


Just stay at 50,000. What can it hurt?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Life is awesome at 50,000 feet. What if I don't want to come down, though?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Life is awesome at 50,000 feet. What if I don't want to come down, though?


Don't.

I haven't.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Don't.
> 
> I haven't.


Yet. Can you have the relationship with Janie that you want without coming down to Earth?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Tron said:


> Yet. Can you have the relationship with Janie that you want without coming down to Earth?


What I do is listen to my body which means stay aware.. A negative feeling means head to 50,000 feet stat. If things are great I'm all in.....on earth.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

That's a good way to put it. 
I usually find that my anxiety is a result of something I did, in the end. If I look hard enough, I can own it all. Not sure I like that, but that's how it plays out from above these days.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

deejov said:


> That's a good way to put it.
> I usually find that my anxiety is a result of something I did, in the end. If I look hard enough, I can own it all. Not sure I like that, but that's how it plays out from above these days.


I feel this way most of the time but sometimes not often my husband is truly at fault and I call him on it. However I've done YEARS of this work so we have that relationship where I can be open and honest without him defending or running away. He owns his crap and I own mine.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Yeah, I don't run away anymore. I stand and talk. 

Something odd did go down this weekend though. I bought some new furniture, the stuff we had was my H's old stuff. His mom made a point of keeping the old stuff. I know why. She told him he'd better hang onto it, in case he needs it soon. He said that bothered him. And he didn't know why. 

I guess everyone except us thinks our situation is just plain odd and they are all waiting for the divorce to drop. I understand that. I don't understand why I don't think that way. It just... doesn't bother me. It's my life, right?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Yeah, I don't run away anymore. I stand and talk.
> 
> Something odd did go down this weekend though. I bought some new furniture, the stuff we had was my H's old stuff. His mom made a point of keeping the old stuff. I know why. She told him he'd better hang onto it, in case he needs it soon. He said that bothered him. And he didn't know why.
> 
> I guess everyone except us thinks our situation is just plain odd and they are all waiting for the divorce to drop. I understand that. I don't understand why I don't think that way. It just... doesn't bother me. It's my life, right?


I'm walking a parallel path.

I understand perfectly.

Well, you're separated right... don't you want to BE WITH someone?

I suppose that would be nice


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

We are living in the same house. We do cuddle on the couch to watch movies. We hug, peck on the cheek. I'm his best friend. 

I do have a timeline. Then I will decide what to do.
I was HD all my life. It's gone. I feel.... affection. Not lust.
It just doesn't seem right to be "sexual" right now. Not with anyone. I don't know anyone who gives me the sense that they are willing to be vulnerable with me and I have the condition in my head at the moment. 

It just isn't there, for anyone in my life. I'm peacefully aware of the possibility, but not pining for it. 

I think my H is a hottie, and I do give him a long look sometimes. Especially if he's got his shirt off and showing off his muscles  but it feels awkward to move on it. Feels right to just be affectionate. Feels wrong to do drama.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Give it time. Stay the course.

Caving now is wrong.

It's his turn.

Hell, get him a user account when the time is right.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I do sense a change in him, but it's emotional, not emotional maturity. He talks about things, but acts a different way. 
I watch, don't listen. he's a good guy. Just not "man enough" at the moment. I know that sounds horrible. But it's how I feel. I don't disrespect him for it either. It is what it is. 

I've noticed people constantly looking at my left hand. Well, men actually. I struggle with what to say. Legally married is all I can come up with. I'm hiding behind it. I know it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> I do sense a change in him, but it's emotional, not emotional maturity. He talks about things, but acts a different way.
> I watch, don't listen. he's a good guy. Just not "man enough" at the moment. I know that sounds horrible. But it's how I feel. I don't disrespect him for it either. It is what it is.
> 
> I've noticed people constantly looking at my left hand. Well, men actually. I struggle with what to say. Legally married is all I can come up with. I'm hiding behind it. I know it.


As long as that works for you, stay with it.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

deejov said:


> That's a good way to put it.
> I usually find that my anxiety is a result of something I did, in the end. If I look hard enough, I can own it all. Not sure I like that, but that's how it plays out from above these days.


Or maybe like I learned last night, your anxiety or fear isn’t necessarily based on something you "did" but on how your "allowing" yourself to perceive the situation. We get all caught up in our head with what ifs and surmising and trying to control instead of just dealing with the facts. 
A good example that was used is if you’re worrying about having to sell your home during the divorce and "downsize" you go into that new place always looking at it from what you gave up and how much space you lost. If you go in looking at it as a fresh start a new beginning being able to make something your own, you love entering your "new" place.
Perspective! And as you said owning that its you....Im just coming to realize that...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

DYRC,

We really fall off the path when we're trying to prove something to ourselves - or to others.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> DYRC,
> 
> We really fall off the path when we're trying to prove something to ourselves - or to others.


My AXW has been a pretty good example of that, recently.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Conrad said:


> DYRC,
> We really fall off the path when we're trying to prove something to ourselves - or to others.


I agree, the moment you start to try and prove something your focus is off yet again. Its about living your life, all the bad and the good. Trying to focus on the facts and not get off the path, not to to allow our mind that by now has been re-wired and programed to respond (by our trauma) with Adrenaline and all the response that adrenaline entails.

Some trauma experts speculate that a person experiencing great emotional trauma may have gotten stuck in that reactive physiological response without ever actually "moving through it". 

At the time the trauma occurred, the person's nervous system became highly activated, but the "activation energy" was stored in the body rather than dispersed. That person then became stuck in a loop. So now, the second a thought that might be associated with that ex-spouse, fear, worry (or whatever the trigger of the trauma was) comes into their mind their eyes dilate, blood is increased to the muscles and their mind picks the signals. This is the trigger that says, yes remember this worry- remember your fear about...... 

I know I can see this in myself.

We have to re-train our mind and our responses.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

doureallycare2 said:


> Or maybe like I learned last night, your anxiety or fear isn’t necessarily based on something you "did" but on how your "allowing" yourself to perceive the situation. We get all caught up in our head with what ifs and surmising and trying to control instead of just dealing with the facts.
> A good example that was used is if you’re worrying about having to sell your home during the divorce and "downsize" you go into that new place always looking at it from what you gave up and how much space you lost. If you go in looking at it as a fresh start a new beginning being able to make something your own, you love entering your "new" place.
> Perspective! And as you said owning that its you....Im just coming to realize that...


You are right. I have to think myself through most situations. Stop. Think. Apply the rules. Then respond. It's getting easier, Slowly.

One of the things I've heard over the years was comments about how I am "two different people". Meaning I have always been super woman. Type 1, single parent, excel at work, smart cookie, always manage to land right side up. Been through crap in my life that's pretty awful. But I survive.

The truth is... I didn't really survive. I was emotionally NOT functioning. Give me 2 years in a relationship, and they would turn and run. 

This is harder than anything I've ever done, but I've never feel SO motivated before, either. Turning 43 tomorrow. Feel like this is my best birthday, ever!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Happy Birthday Deej... you know I'm a fan.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm uncomfortable with "fan". TBH I use this site for own purposes. 
I get quite a bit out of it. Seeing different perspectives, the silent 2x4's (reading people doing things I do) and I get some comfort in knowing I"m not alone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> I'm uncomfortable with "fan". TBH I use this site for own purposes.
> I get quite a bit out of it. Seeing different perspectives, the silent 2x4's (reading people doing things I do) and I get some comfort in knowing I"m not alone.


Fan simply means somebody you are pulling for.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Happy Birthday- I hope its a great one for you!!


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Bump.

I needed this tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Gotta say I'm a fan of deej too. I don't follow you but everything I've seen is sincere and from the heart. Don't get a lot of that around here.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Bump.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also a fan of RG.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

It could be argued that all of reality, and thus 'truth', is "subjective" (ie "There is no spoon. Well, there IS, but only because we 'believe' there is")... but that is likely getting outside any useful scope for our purposes here.  

Either way, trying to change someone's subjective 'truth' is a fool's errand (or a 'disrespectful judgement').  

What a great thread! Thanks for the bump, RG - I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

what a grand read this thread was to come back to....


you are all simply beautiful wee poppets


love and peace to all-Happy New Year


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