# Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Do you believe the chronic, willful withholding of sex in a marriage is just as much of a vow breaker as infidelity?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, absolutely.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think it's more complicated than the 3 choices you gave.

Why? Because I can think of valid reasons to withhold sex. If spouse A neglects and/or mistreats their spouse, then why would their spouse want sex with them?

For example, there is a person posting here to has a youtube vid/recording of his wife seriously emotionally abusing him. Now I was in a marriage with a guy who treated me that way. I was a marriage with a man who treated me like that, it's soul destroying. 

If a person is treated like that, why would they even want to have sex with their abusive spouse?

Or how about the person whose spouse is a workaholic? I mean to the point that they do not want to spend any time with their spouse at all. But they want their spouse to have sex with them on demand? Really?


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I think cheating and withholding are both betrayals.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

People say, divorce, don't cheat. I say that and also say to the withholder, divorce, don't withhold. Or, agree to an open relationship if that works better.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
IF (and only if) the HD partner has made a real effort to fix things, then I think withholding by the LD partner is actually worse than cheating. It puts the HD partner in a truly miserable situation:

Cheat - thereby dishonoring themselves.

Leave - breaking their sacred oaths of marriage

Live near-celibate: the only honorable choice, but one that is utterly unfair to the HD partner who (in this scenario) is forced to to forgo an important part of human experience.


Now, if the LD partner is LD because of the actions of the HD partner, then things are completely different. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes not.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

There is an art to playing with sex in marriage and most wives do it wrong. The term "withholding sex" itself implies this. Most wives end up doing this out of resentment. That's not as bad as infidelity but it's definitely not good for the marriage.

On the other hand, there are very constructive ways to play with sex in marriage.

So my summary: never withhold sex out of resentment but don't treat sex as a duty either.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

In my value system:

Cheating is a binary right/wrong. There is no gray area to it. This is done behind another's back. An open arrangement for outsourcing would not be cheating.

Withholding is terrible, believe me I live it. This tango takes two though and it's plainly in the open. If you don't like it, divorce, I am.


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

Hell yes.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

EleGirl brought up some great points, things that need to be considered.

Abuse and neglect are important factors.

Abuse and neglect aside, purposely withholding sex is cheating your spouse out of a normal and healthy sex life.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

SiM vs CWI smackdown part CCXXVIII


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think it's more complicated than the 3 choices you gave.
> 
> Why? Because I can think of valid reasons to withhold sex.


But there are people who think there are valid reasons to cheat as well. 

I don't want to muddy a poll with 10,000 exceptions. I specifically stated "chronic, willful withholding", which doesn't imply "withhold for a very valid emotional/safety reason". I think most will get the general gist.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

They’re both equally bad because in both cases infidelity is involved. In the case of cheating, the betrayer physically and emotionally cheats on the spouse through engaging with another individual. In the case of withholding sex, the withholder physically and emotionally cheats their spouse out of one of the most important aspects of marriage – intimacy. Many people cheat because they are married to LD partners who do not want to fix themselves. They lack the emotional and physical connection that is needed to keep the marriage going and without sex, there really is no marriage. I’m not condoning cheating, but it’s time people realize that it’s much more complicated than “my cheating spouse is selfish.” The withholding partner is even more selfish than the cheater – they expect the cheater to stay in a (supposedly) lifelong committed relationship without sex. Neglecting your spouse’s need for intimacy is emotional abuse.

Disclaimer: some people are serial cheaters and can’t keep it in their pants no matter how happy the marriage is (no one needs to point this out, we get it). Other people cheat because they are unhappy and the betrayed doesn’t care (this isn’t an excuse, open your eyes people).

Many of the betrayed spouses self-righteously believe that they have the moral high ground. It was even stated to a poster who wanted a revenge affair that they would lose the moral high ground if they cheated on their wayward spouse. Many of the BSes are in a fog themselves. So many of them claim that they were in a perfect marriage beforehand but I bet if we talked to their partner before the cheating took place the story would be very different. After the fact, the wayward’s justification for cheating is called “rewriting marital history.” It’s a sort of little catch phrase the BSes use so that they don’t have to face the reality of the situation – that they are at least 50% responsible for the problems in the marriage, if not more. They want to hear only one thing: the cheater cheated because they are selfish. This is usually very far from the truth.

I could have very easily cheated on my ex-wife because she was a witholder – her needs were met and she had no desire to meet mine. I even told her one time that if things didn’t change that I would cheat on her – I never did, but the thought continually crossed my mind because her needs were met and mine were not. When I served her divorce papers, she was shocked and said something along the lines of “I thought we had a great marriage apart from the no sex issue.” She had completely forgotten or ignored the numerous talks we had about how dire our marriage was. You see those who are cheated on or those who withhold on their partners are also in their own fog. They betrayed also “rewrites marital history” to ease their own guilt and responsibility for the downfall of the marriage. They either truly believe the marriage was perfect before hand or are too dense to realize what’s going on. I’m sure that if we had a TV camera on their marriage before the cheater cheated we’d pick up on quite a few not-so-subtle clues as to how crappy the marriage was. My wife was 90% responsible for the downfall of the marriage, I was 10% responsible for being such a doormat to her and allowing her to abuse and neglect me. But oh yeah, according to her our marriage was “great apart from the no sex thing.”

Once the cheating has occurred, the cheater is now in a place where they..and ONLY they…need to fix the marriage. The betrayed gets what they always had before – they’re needs are met and they don’t need to meet the needs of the partner. They can continue to neglect and withhold from the cheater and now they have a reason – they were cheated on! The cheater needs to do all the heavy lifting and the betrayed does nothing. It doesn’t work that way, you’ll just reinforce why you were cheated on in the first place. You can call it an excuse, but the betrayed would do very well to listen to the reasons why they were cheated on and fix those reasons. If they are fixed and the cheater cheats again, then the betrayed has a case for selfishness on the part of the cheater. The betrayed doesn’t need to fix anything on their end of the relationship because after all, the marriage was good in the first place. Why would they have been cheated on?

Many of the betrayed aren’t willing to admit on TAM what they have done to push their spouse away physically and emotionally and they probably can’t admit it to themselves either. They aren’t willing to admit the neglect that they have foisted on their partner, nor their need to fix things from their end. The betrayed holds accountability to the relationship as well, but many are happy to refuse admitting this.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

IMO, barring wierd outliers, as posed withholding is almost the opposite end of having an affair. It clearly breaks the marriage vows.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Cheating is worse..... withholding is wrong.... a good relationship needs intimacy.... I would not want to be cheated on, and i would not want a relationship without sex........ Neither are healthy!!!......

I am hard to please ......


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I have been cheated on so nothing comes close in that regard for me. 

Some legitimate reasons to not have sex but if you mean purposefully not having sex to get even with or punish someone that is also wrong. Just not as equally.

Both are deal breakers for me


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## Kylie84 (May 4, 2012)

I agree with most on this- both being cheated on and deprived of sex within marriage all comes down to being rejected.
No one wants to feel like that, and both scenarios prescribe to it so I feel they are as equally as bad as eachother


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## Kahlil Gibran (Jan 27, 2014)

Stefan Molyneux sums it up quit well: “Withholding Sex as Infidelity”

See this video and jump to the 1:00 mark.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUEhSPucEwA


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I believe they are both wrong, but they are different kinds of wrong.

Do I look down on withholding sex? Not necessarily, as Elle pointed out, someone, for example, would not want to have sex with a spouse that berates them or treats them bad.
If they are withholding sex as some sort of punishment, then I have no respect for the withholder.

Do I look down on cheating? Always. I don't give a crap what the circumstance.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

P51Geo1980 said:


> They’re both equally bad because in both cases infidelity is involved. In the case of cheating, the betrayer physically and emotionally cheats on the spouse through engaging with another individual. In the case of withholding sex, the withholder physically and emotionally cheats their spouse out of one of the most important aspects of marriage – intimacy. Many people cheat because they are married to LD partners who do not want to fix themselves. They lack the emotional and physical connection that is needed to keep the marriage going and without sex, there really is no marriage. I’m not condoning cheating, but it’s time people realize that it’s much more complicated than “my cheating spouse is selfish.” The withholding partner is even more selfish than the cheater – they expect the cheater to stay in a (supposedly) lifelong committed relationship without sex. Neglecting your spouse’s need for intimacy is emotional abuse.
> 
> Disclaimer: some people are serial cheaters and can’t keep it in their pants no matter how happy the marriage is (no one needs to point this out, we get it). Other people cheat because they are unhappy and the betrayed doesn’t care (this isn’t an excuse, open your eyes people).
> 
> ...


First bolded part: This only applies if the cheating is found out. Many times infidelity occurs with the betrayed spouse none the wiser. The cheating spouse is making a mockery of their spouse and their vows behind their spouse's back. At least in a witholding situation everyone knows what the score is.

Second bolded part: I think this applies just as often in a witholding situation. Many times we, the chronically under-sexed, are unable to see how our own behaviors have potentially caused and escalated our own situations, just like in the case of a betrayed spouse.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Is withholding of sex considered an act of betrayal? Does it shatter the trust that has been built?

I suppose it does but I suspect the corrosiveness is due to the underlying reason one would withhold sex, not just the withholding of it. whereas with cheating, the underlying reason becomes moot, its the act itself that is the ultimate dealbreaker.

If a spouse is withholding sex, and refuses to discuss or address it, the violation would fall under the "love and cherish" part of the vow, not the "forsake all others" part. 

It is the difference between an explosion and a slow burn - with a slow burn there is time to react and deal with the issue, the "act" of withholding has no discrete end to the time frame - cheating is a singularity.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Also, the act of withholding does not cross the explicit boundaries of marriage, and is usually used as an attempt to have other unmet needs met WITHIN the marriage boundaries. Cheating is absolutely not about getting needs met within boundaries.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It's sort of like saying the only reason folks cheat is because they withhold sex. That's why so many are angry. They think they aren't getting sex as a punishment from the LD spouse. It isn't always the case. I'm pretty sure that's what my wife thought. I withheld because I wanted to punish her. The thing is, if a man is healthy, he generally can get an erection even from someone he is not physically attracted to if he closes his eyes and she is performing oral. In my case, I couldn't get one that way either. There was so much hurt in me partly because of my health and partly because she made me feel like I was nothing. I was worthless and did nothing with my life that was worthy of respect from anyone. I was less than dirt. You get those feelings from someone who you really respect and you believe them. Once you believe them, you still want her, but you just can't physically get it up. If a man can't get it up, and he has already been questioning his manhood, do you think he would want to give her oral or anything else? No. He figures he won't do a good job at that either, so why try? It's a problem exacerbated. 

Then, when you do try a few times, she says something like, "Oh just forget it". Feel that from the woman you adore. Go ahead, then tell me it's punishment the LD is giving out. 

Sometimes, there is so much more to it than anyone realizes. Especially when you really haven't made that much of your life, but you think you have done all you could to try to make something out of yourself, do what's right, and just want to be loved and respected for who you are. You just want to enjoy life a little bit, after struggling for decades. It's not as simple sometimes, as some here think it is. From the perspective of the HD, of course it must be withheld intentionally. 

If you are staying in the marriage and are HD and are cheating, you are doing it for yourself. You are getting sex elsewhere. You are not sexless. You are punishing the LD spouse. You don't care about them. You want to stay to be with your children. Obviously, this isn't all cases. I have read it many times. When there are no children, who gets the blame for the troubles? What is the HD staying for and going outside the marriage? In my mind, there is only one reason, and that's for vengeance. 

Yeah, it's punishment alright, on both sides. That's why it's better to divorce. You don't want your dear children to learn all of this stuff is normal for a marriage. You want to show them you are trying to make it work, and if it doesn't, you do the honorable thing and divorce. You make the best life you can for yourself and your children. 

This hiding behind the children is bull, too. They certainly don't need to learn how to treat each other badly from their parents. The rest of the world will do enough of that.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

Yes it is.

Which if you have been cheated on it probably isn't that great anymore.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tulsy said:


> EleGirl brought up some great points, things that need to be considered.
> 
> Abuse and neglect are important factors.
> 
> Abuse and neglect aside, purposely withholding sex is cheating your spouse out of a normal and healthy sex life.


:iagree:


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

Lon said:


> Also, the act of withholding does not cross the explicit boundaries of marriage, and is usually used as an attempt to have other unmet needs met WITHIN the marriage boundaries. Cheating is absolutely not about getting needs met within boundaries.


This is so true, I'm going through this right now. My husband doesn't see my emotional needs as necessary and I'm having a hard time seeing sex as necessary.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

tulsy said:


> EleGirl brought up some great points, things that need to be considered.
> 
> Abuse and neglect are important factors.
> 
> Abuse and neglect aside, purposely withholding sex is cheating your spouse out of a normal and healthy sex life.


That true if they are doing what you need. If not they are cheating you out of a good sex life so why should you continue to go out of your way for them.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Never been cheated on and never been with a man that withheld sex...but I'm feeling opinionated today 

I think both would be fatal for my marriage. Discovering infidelity would be a quick death I believe.

Withholding sex (and with it no doubt affection) would be a slow death...but I'd probably work a lot harder to fix this problem.

Both are abusive and cruel IMO.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Thebes said:


> This is so true, I'm going through this right now. My husband doesn't see my emotional needs as necessary and I'm having a hard time seeing sex as necessary.


Yeah, I view withholding sex the same as I would view withholding from your spouse any other need they have which you could help them meet.

Withholding fidelity (sexual, financial etc) is outside of scope and way over the line.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I believe they are both wrong, but they are different kinds of wrong.
> 
> Do I look down on withholding sex? Not necessarily, as Elle pointed out, someone, for example, would not want to have sex with a spouse that berates them or treats them bad.
> If they are withholding sex as some sort of punishment, then I have no respect for the withholder.
> ...


:iagree:

I see absolutely no excuse for cheating, as it's just wrong. I lose respect for those who choose to cheat. 

In regards to withholding sex, it is not so black and white. When my husband was being rude/disrespectful/putting me down, I withheld sex and I do not feel bad about that. It was enough to wake him up to the problems we had in our marriage and we're working on them now(talking got us no where).


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

A spouse who willfully withholds sex, for no legitimate reason, has broken the marriage vows and forfeited their right to expect monogamy. 

I believe people should not cheat, for their own sake. But I don't believe withholders deserve fidelity. If you starve a person you can not expect them to not eventually find food elsewhere. There are very, very few legitimate excuses for withholding sexual pleasure in a marriage. 

I believe both are vow breakers and both equally as horrible.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Jaquen, do you feel that is one spouse feels they want to withhold sex, based on whatever reason, that they should put their lack of sexual appetite aside and just make themselves available to their partner?

Personally I feel that if one person WANTS to withhold sex, then they should because for me sex should be something both partners actually want from each other, whether they are married or just dating.

So shouldn't the more important problem to focus on be overcoming the barrier that is preventing your spouse from actually wanting it, rather than just figuring out for yourself how to get it?


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

Lon said:


> Jaquen, do you feel that is one spouse feels they want to withhold sex, based on whatever reason, that they should put their lack of sexual appetite aside and just make themselves available to their partner?
> 
> Personally I feel that if one person WANTS to withhold sex, then they should because for me sex should be something both partners actually want from each other, whether they are married or just dating.
> 
> So shouldn't the more important problem to focus on be overcoming the barrier that is preventing your spouse from actually wanting it, rather than just figuring out for yourself how to get it?


I think this illustrates why this topic is so confusing to so many. Different people mean very different things by the phrase "withholding sex".

It could mean deliberately withholding sex for no good reason, for a reason that seems good to the withholder, or with no intention whatsoever, just a lower sex drive.

It could mean doing so out of spite with no resolution in mind or something altogether different.

Aside from the above, there does seem to be quite a difference of opinion between men and women which is not very surprising. Men things sex is due in marriage, women have a more nuanced view of things.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Lon
I think that a good sex life is an expected and critical part of a marriage. If the HD partner is treating the LD partner badly in some way, then that is something that the HD partner can fix. Those situations do exist. 

In many cases though the HD partner really is not doing anything wrong. Often they are going out of their way in every way they can to be good to the LD partner, and are still being rejected. There is nothing that the HD partner can do to fix this.

In that case, I do not believe that the LD partner has the right to make the HD partner live without sex. They can provide it themselves, or they can allow the HD partner to get it elsewhere, but it is not fair to expect the HD partner to be celibate. 

I think this topic causes a lot of controversy because non-LD people honestly cannot understand someone who is LD. They assume that the HD person must be doing *something* wrong. They cannot imagine now wanting to be intimate with someone who is loving and caring and giving in and out of bed.


I was in this situation for 25 years. Nothing I could do would make it better. When my wife finally (and mysteriously) stopped being HD, she could think of nothing that I could have done for all those years. I know that people will imagine reasons - maybe I was ugly, or in poor shape, or dirty, or unloving, or uncaring, or unskilled in bed, or didn't show intimacy out of bed, or uncaring, or...... the list is endless. There is no way I can prove it, but I was none of those things. 

I chose the "celibate" option. Its wretched. I would not fault anyone who chose to cheat in that situation. 






Lon said:


> Jaquen, do you feel that is one spouse feels they want to withhold sex, based on whatever reason, that they should put their lack of sexual appetite aside and just make themselves available to their partner?
> 
> Personally I feel that if one person WANTS to withhold sex, then they should because for me sex should be something both partners actually want from each other, whether they are married or just dating.
> So shouldn't the more important problem to focus on be overcoming the barrier that is preventing your spouse from actually wanting it, rather than just figuring out for yourself how to get it?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> A spouse who willfully withholds sex, for no legitimate reason, has broken the marriage vows and forfeited their right to expect monogamy.
> 
> I believe people should not cheat, for their own sake. But I don't believe withholders deserve fidelity. If you starve a person you can not expect them to not eventually find food elsewhere. There are very, very few legitimate excuses for withholding sexual pleasure in a marriage.
> 
> I believe both are vow breakers and both equally as horrible.


I feel they are both betrayals of the intended honor , loving and cherishing....how can we blindly allow our spouse to suffer in this way... IF that is something so important TO THEM.. this is our part in honoring them...

I have talked to my husband about this.. and how strongly I FEEL ON IT.. without a healthy giving thriving sex life, I just wouldn't be happy....even back in the day when I didn't "need it" as much as he.. I still would have felt this way.. I wouldn't resort to feeling like a beggar to the person I married.. that would get REAL OLD REAL FAST.....

I'd grow to look upon my spouse as my mortal enemy if he pushed me away or felt I was a burden in this way... he doesn't have a problem with my views because he loves sex and feels very similar to me.. I think the only difference between us is.. he would suffer.. where I just WOULDN'T... that would be a horrible weakness for me.. I married a giver .. he's made it pretty easy on me.. even when My drive was HIGHER over his...

I just feel a sexless marriage would be like being in a prison.. read too many stories here...or even a man who jacks it to porn so much he leaves his willing / wanting wife hanging.. (this too a betrayal of the vows, of the intended intimacy that binds 2 people as one)..

I am not one who blindly thinks that all cheaters are created equal...there are some stories here that made my blood boil...this was one of those....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-spirituality/42433-lonliness-pornography-affair.html ...

I've seen others asking if they should take depression drugs just to lower their libido or God forbid even consider castration.... with such stories...I see the one on the verge of falling into the arms of another - as far more caring, just that he/ she came to the end of that rope of holding on to something withered & dead far too long... frankly I found the with-holder *more *at fault..


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> My wife has stated a number of times that since our daughter was born, she realises how much more important my daughter is to her than I am.


Uh, this wasn't some sort of sign that something was radically wrong? I doubt any church would force them to stay together and if they did try, I think there would be serious considerations as to whether they had the best doctrine to follow. I think staying in that would be worse for his eternal soul than leaving. It isn't adultery, when he is going through that and has tried. Didn't read more than the first post, so I don't know what they did to try.

It was way past the time to divorce. 

SA, who withheld from you? Do you believe your husband was withholding? Do you think he was intentionally trying to hurt you before you stepped in and helped him out? I always read little in the way of dissatisfaction before you turned about 40 or so. Did you blame him more for being the same as he was before you turned 40 or after? 

I will tell you the truth. Your husband deserves a heaping helping of credit. He really does. He's a great man and I hope he knows it. I'm sure he went through hell with all the demands on him from work and home. He is one of few who really step up and do all they can.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> I think this illustrates why this topic is so confusing to so many. Different people mean very different things by the phrase "withholding sex".
> 
> It could mean deliberately withholding sex for no good reason, for a reason that seems good to the withholder, or with no intention whatsoever, just a lower sex drive.
> 
> ...


For someone with a more nuanced view, you seem to be painting with a broad brush here.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> For someone with a more nuanced view, you seem to be painting with a broad brush here.


Are you disagreeing or merely protesting that I said it out loud?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Lon
> I think that a good sex life is an expected and critical part of a marriage. If the HD partner is treating the LD partner badly in some way, then that is something that the HD partner can fix. Those situations do exist.
> 
> In many cases though the HD partner really is not doing anything wrong. Often they are going out of their way in every way they can to be good to the LD partner, and are still being rejected. There is nothing that the HD partner can do to fix this.
> ...


Hi Richard,

I wasn't even talking about sex drive levels, I just mean the act of deliberately withholding sex, whether it be for punishment or just not being willing to engage.

So it would seem you would extend the idea of withholding being against the vows of the marriage even in a mismatched SD situation?

I think attraction waxes and wanes in a LTR, but either way if the problem is deliberate I believe it is wrong, and for a "good sex life" it has to be a mutual desire for sex by both regardless of how often or how mismatched the libido.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> Are you disagreeing or merely protesting that I said it out loud?



I'd disagree with pretty much any statement that says "Men are like THIS, but women are like THAT" as an end all, be all. I think people are people, and relying on generalizations to map out your approach to your marriage is a mistake.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I'd disagree with pretty much any statement that says "Men are like THIS, but women are like THAT" as an end all, be all.


So, it might be that my statement is 100% correct with respect to the sample of opinions voiced here but you'd disagree, nevertheless, on principle?


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## Sidney Jinx (Sep 8, 2014)

no


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> So, it might be that my statement is 100% correct with respect to the sample of opinions voiced here but you'd disagree, nevertheless, on principle?


If by "voiced here" means this thread--I don't see that in this thread. This thread is about comparing the detrimental effects of withholding sex vs infidelity, not who's more "nuanced" between genders. If instead you mean that 100% of the opinions voiced on TAM in general agree with you--I think you have some more reading to do.

I'm not disagreeing on principle in the face of reality, I'm disagreeing based on my experience in reality and the experience of people i've spoken to, both here on TAM and in the real world.

Some people fit your preconceptions, some people don't.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> Jaquen, do you feel that is one spouse feels they want to withhold sex, based on whatever reason, that they should put their lack of sexual appetite aside and just make themselves available to their partner?


The root issue should be worked on thoroughly and consistently. 

And even then I think the root issues should be VERY serious to withhold long term and chronically. I actually think one of the worst things a couple can do is think sex should only be had when everything is perfect or near perfect. Withholding sex can greatly exacerbate existing issues and put further distance between two people already struggling.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

The impetus to consider divorcing my ex was his refusal to have sex with me. 

It was a living hell. I became physically ill. I thought I was going crazy. I had bizarre digestive problems, nightmares, etc. I am convinced that sleeping next to a sex partner and getting zero sex is a form of psycho-torture as well as physical. Sex is a need. 

Therefore, my ex is guilty of torturing me. I'm not exaggerating. His presence morally (and legally, I suppose) barred me from seeking satisfaction elsewhere, but he refused to provide what only he could provide. 

That's just plain sick. It's a horrible trap. It's cruel.

I struggle to forgive him for robbing me of over a decade of sexual relations during the prime of my life. 

I wish I could have sued him for breach of contract or something. 

It left me believing I could never have sex again--it had been too long and too full of torture. 

Imagine my delight in finding my current H who respects that sex is at the heart of a healthy marriage. I asked him to take that on as a dedicated promise to me, always; i.e., even if I seemed not to be interested, he gets me interested. 

And that is why, when we have problems in our relationship, somehow it always works out. I harbor a profound gratitude toward him for keeping his promise. 

Each spouse is entrusted singly with safeguarding and respecting the other's sexuality. No one else in the world has that task. To abdicate that responsibility is to trap the other spouse. 

One should be allowed to demand an open marriage at that point, just for the sexual satisfaction. For some of us, our morals will not allow it. So we are screwed. I nearly went mad. Instead I got divorced.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

questar1 said:


> The impetus to consider divorcing my ex was his refusal to have sex with me.
> 
> It was a living hell. I became physically ill. I thought I was going crazy. I had bizarre digestive problems, nightmares, etc. I am convinced that sleeping next to a sex partner and getting zero sex is a form of psycho-torture as well as physical. Sex is a need.
> 
> ...


I know exactly what you mean! I would have mental rages because I was so upset about being in a sexless marriage. Was absolutely not what I signed up for.

Now I'm with a partner that I have complete compatibility with and excellent sexual chemistry with. She's affectionate, emotionally there for me, actually like me...It's awesome! I can't believe I wasted 11 years of my life on my ex-wife.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Kahlil Gibran said:


> Stefan Molyneux sums it up quit well: “Withholding Sex as Infidelity”
> 
> See this video and jump to the 1:00 mark.
> 
> ...


I watched this. 

He got it exactly right. Withholding sex (for a long period of time) is infidelity. It is a violation of the fundamental marriage contract which includes exclusive sexual rights. 

It's different, of course, if you're actively working to resolve it. Plus, there are many forms of sex, many ways to work out alternatives if one partner has a real physical problem.

But it was refreshing to hear, in this video, the opinion that you don't get to just plain stop participating sexually in a marriage without being held accountable for the consequences. 

Thanks for sharing this video.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

2ntnuf said:


> SA, who withheld from you? Do you believe your husband was withholding? Do you think he was intentionally trying to hurt you before you stepped in and helped him out? I always read little in the way of dissatisfaction before you turned about 40 or so. Did you blame him more for being the same as he was before you turned 40 or after?


 2ntnuf.. when I post on threads such as these... to be honest, I am not speaking of my own situation really AT ALL.. because I was ALWAYS satisfied.. I would have complained otherwise.. as for him.. he wanted MORE but was so dogone passive about it.. I mean he NEVER fought with me, I really didn't KNOW.. Had I known, Because he ALWAYS was such a good man, I would have done more, cared more.... 

He is a more "receptive lover"... subtle even.... if he gave the slightest advance and I seemed uninterested (a book in my hands for example)...many times he would just roll over.. I am not like this.... I go out of my way.. I'd make it very difficult to resist.. worth his while... if at that point he rejected me, I'd either break down & cry or probably start a fight.. I would be flooded with strong emotions.. this I know.. and it would destroy us... But thankfully.. I never had to face this... I've only read about it in the stories of others here....and I so sympathize with them..I know I would feel the same. 

It's very difficult to read a story such as Questar1... but it brings home my point very strongly...... I would have been a royal Bi*tch to deal with - if that was me.. (not nice of me to say.. but I'm honest)... Husband's response would have been very different....he would have just backed away.. and a gulf would grow between us.... his reactions are not my reactions.. we are very different temperament wise.. He said of our past.. "I was always happy, we had the kids".. something to that effect.. 

But Yes ...he did grow some resentment towards me.. and he admitted he wanted ME to suffer a little as he was..(we always had sex at least once a week -but he would have been thrilled with 3-4 times a week all those years)... the sad fact is.. I would have NEVER known these things , had I not had this Drive increase & full barrel opened up this subject ...seeking to learn the truth...It was hard to hear I failed him in this way.. but truth is truth.. 



> I will tell you the truth. Your husband deserves a heaping helping of credit. He really does. He's a great man and I hope he knows it. I'm sure he went through hell with all the demands on him from work and home. He is one of few who really step up and do all they can.


 Saying he went through Hell.. awe ...come on now.. He never felt that.. there was a moment he even got glassy eyed- thinking I was slowing down & told me he DIDN'T want that..... he LOVED the drive increase, never seen it as a burden, even laughed at me once saying.... "Sex a burden, are you crazy woman!".. that sure made me feel good ! 

He even told me he thought he was taking ME for granted -during that time.. I went out of my way in many ways to cater to his every need ..(not just sexual) so he wasn't under pressure... so he could relax when he got home, etc.. But yes thank you for your words 2ntnuf.. I do think my H is an amazing example. Viagra helped ! ha ha


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Withholding sex, IMO, is the same as withholding any other emotional need. There are too many variables to compare any blanket situation to another.

Using women as an example since that's the most common around here, if a man and woman come home from work and he gets on the couch to watch the game while she makes dinner, cleans, helps with homework, gets the kids to bed and gets everything ready for the next busy day, it's not wrong for her to say no, I'm too tired and need this time to myself. If you had helped we would have been done an hour earlier and could have been up in bed right now. 

Of if a man doesn't do enough foreplay or makes sure that she is also enjoying and having an O, should she meet his sexual needs even if he isn't meeting hers?

I recently got to the point where I consciously decided I can no longer have sex with DH, not that he cares as much as many on SIM but he's asked a few times since then. Having sex with someone who doesn't respect my needs makes me feel disgusting and used. I don't owe that to anyone. I also don't feel that me saying no is any different to him saying no to any of my requests.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

karole said:


> I think cheating and withholding are both betrayals.


Agreed, can't say which is worse.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

questar1 said:


> I watched this.
> 
> He got it exactly right. Withholding sex (for a long period of time) is infidelity. It is a violation of the fundamental marriage contract which includes exclusive sexual rights.
> 
> ...


Well this is the key. Consequences. 

Consequences for many who cheated is often divorce.

Consequences for those who are purposely withholding sex is.........

Guess that's where I shake my head here. I see men and women complaining about living in a sexless marriage but they aren't doing anything about it. Of course it is violation of the marriage but for some reason doesn't seem to come with any consequences for happening?

I have never had a sexless marriage or relationship ever. I don't believe sex should be a reward or a punishment tool, it's part of intimacy and expected in marriage end of story. Some may say I have just been lucky in who I have been with but I rather think it's because I am honest and upfront in my relationships. No sex = me not here.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Depends on the level of withholding.

If there is occasional intimacy, then cheating is worse. If there is no intimacy, then they are equal.

Occasional would be tough to define and different for every couple.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> If there is occasional intimacy, then cheating is worse. If there is no intimacy, then they are equal.


I don't know about that. I think occasional intimacy is worse than none, because it can create false hopes that are - once again - dashed.

Maybe it's a graduated scale? No intimacy - full on cheating is reasonable. Occasional intimacy, occasional cheating is okay!


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is the key. Consequences.
> 
> Consequences for many who cheated is often divorce.
> 
> ...


x2/agreed


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Lon
I think that no one should be denied a normal sex life. If the LD partner isn't interested AND the HD partner is doing all that they can, I think there are a few OK things for them to do:

Have sex anyway - or at least offer.

Seek therapy / medical treatment.

Allow their partner to have sex outside of the marriage. 


I don't think it is OK to basically say "I don't want sex, so you have to live without it as well". 

Physical disability is different, though few forms of disability prevent all sorts of sexual contact. 





Lon said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> I wasn't even talking about sex drive levels, I just mean the act of deliberately withholding sex, whether it be for punishment or just not being willing to engage.
> 
> ...


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't know about that. I think occasional intimacy is worse than none, because it can create false hopes that are - once again - dashed.
> 
> Maybe it's a graduated scale? No intimacy - full on cheating is reasonable. Occasional intimacy, occasional cheating is okay!


Do you think that everyone should have sex whenever their spouse wants?

I don't expect my wife to be available to me whenever I want. I do expect her to be there occasionally (minimum once a week).

So I am OK with her withholding occasionally. I am not OK with her cheating ... EVER.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I think they are both terrible and both potential deal breakers. However I do think cheating is worse. _Because_. (I just feel that way and don't feel obligated to explain it).

That said, I think withholding any need that you are capable of providing to your spouse is horrible and cruel. Whether it's sex, affection, conversation etc. people should give where and when they can and be happy to do it if it means keeping the relationship strong and healthy. We all have to do things everyday whether we want to or not that benefit us. In cases of LD/HD I think sex should be no different. As should trying to meet your spouses other emotional needs.

I sure as heck don't feel like changing poopy diapers everyday but I do it. It benefits my son and keeps him healthy to be clean. Benefits me not to be a neglectful mom and hence keeping the kids that I created and love. I have never regretted changing a diaper that resulted in my son not getting a rash.

I don't feel like washing the dishes by hand (don't own a dishwasher) several times a day either. But it benefits me and my family to have clean pots, plates and utensils to cook and eat off so I do it. I have never regretted having clean dishes.

Now, I enjoy sex and am game for it most of the time but during the times I haven't been in the mood because I was tired or whatever, I still have sex when he initiates. I always get in the mood for it and enjoy myself after we start and we feel closer to each other afterwards. I have never regretted an orgasm or feeling closer to my spouse after a romp.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



Miss Taken said:


> Now, I enjoy sex and am game for it most of the time but during the times I haven't been in the mood because I was tired or whatever, I still have sex when he initiates. I always get in the mood for it and enjoy myself after we start and we feel closer to each other afterwards. I have never regretted an orgasm or feeling closer to my spouse after a romp.


In my marriage I was kind of like this all the time, I probably could have been put in the mood those times I wasn't initially feeling it, however I had a HD spouse that didn't know how, or just didn't want, to ever initiate with me. As the guy I suppose it was supposed to be my job to initiate, and eventually that made me feel undesirable, even though pretty much every time I did it lead to mutually great sex. Every chance I didn't take to initiate only built resentment in her, and feelings of rejection, but she was incapable of understanding that her never once initiating on me made me feel constantly rejected, to the point where not being in the mood was the normal state for me, and along with that lack of attractiveness came her state of not being available even when I tried to initiate and break out of that funk.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Do you think that everyone should have sex whenever their spouse wants?
> 
> I don't expect my wife to be available to me whenever I want. I do expect her to be there occasionally (minimum once a week).
> 
> So I am OK with her withholding occasionally. I am not OK with her cheating ... EVER.


Of course not - I did not say that and you are deliberately misinterpreting what I've said. I'm talking about intimacy that's borderline sexless - monthly or less. Just enough to raise hope for improvement and maybe forestall a divorce or cheating, but not enough to make a good marriage. I consider that low level manipulative and abusive on the part of the withholder, and they deserve whatever consequences result.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> Of course not - I did not say that and you are deliberately misinterpreting what I've said. I'm talking about intimacy that's borderline sexless - monthly or less. Just enough to raise hope for improvement and maybe forestall a divorce or cheating, but not enough to make a good marriage. I consider that low level manipulative and abusive on the part of the withholder, and they deserve whatever consequences result.


So we agree!!! 

It is all about how you define withholding. How occasional is defined. 

Above you said once a month or less. Until you said that, I had no idea what you meant when you said 'occasional'
withholding was not OK.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

melw74 said:


> Cheating is worse..... withholding is wrong.... a good relationship needs intimacy.... I would not want to be cheated on, and i would not want a relationship without sex........ Neither are healthy!!!......
> 
> I am hard to please ......


I don't think you are hard to please, you are simply human. Completely normal.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Withholding is not the same as not wanting to do it. Withholding implies an intentional action. That is, they desire sex but are willfully not agreeing to sexual intimacy for some ulterior motive. In most cases, the person is not actually withholding sex. Rather, they just don't have an interest in it.

There are many things which you don't have an interest in and would be annoyed if your spouse wanted to do 3x per week. Perhaps it would be things like shopping for shoes or hardware, going to karaoke, going ballroom dancing, etc. 

The problem with sex is that there is a significant an emotional component to it. Even if the LD spouse was willing to comply with the frequency, a negative emotional association to the sex acts could have a large negative effect to other parts of their well-being.

In any case, even if they were willingly withholding for a manipulative reason, it still wouldn't be 1/100th as bad as cheating. Withholding is a pretty big selfish action, but it doesn't hold a candle to the huge violation of trust that cheating involves. 

The appropriate response to an sexual difference for which a compromise cannot be found is divorce, not cheating.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Withholding sex, IMO, is the same as withholding any other emotional need. There are too many variables to compare any blanket situation to another.
> 
> Using women as an example since that's the most common around here, if a man and woman come home from work and he gets on the couch to watch the game while she makes dinner, cleans, helps with homework, gets the kids to bed and gets everything ready for the next busy day, it's not wrong for her to say no, I'm too tired and need this time to myself. If you had helped we would have been done an hour earlier and could have been up in bed right now.
> 
> ...


That's because you view sex as optional. Just one of a long line of needs and desires that can, or cannot, be met. You don't "owe" sex to anyone. However:

I owe sex to my wife.
My wife owes sex to me.
Period.

Neither of us took vows to "forsake all others" without the implied promise "for the sake of one". 

Making love is part of our communication as a married couple; it's like breath to the living. It strengthens our connection, draws us closer, and serves as both a wonderful salve and emotional shorthand. Whether things are at their best, or not, withholding sex chronically and consistently isn't allowed. That is a vow breaker. Making a "conscious decision" to no longer make love *is not an option*. If there were issues so major that one of us reached the point of extracting sex, and we weren't actively working on resolving those issues ASAP, than the marriage would essentially be dead.

If you look at sex as something you don't "owe" your spouse that's fine, as long as they have the same view. And that's what matters. Are you compatible in your views? Two people who look at sex as a take or leave desire will work just fine; not everybody "needs" sex in their relationship.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I wonder if anyone has ever bothered to make a top 100 immoral acts list?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I wonder if anyone has ever bothered to make a top 100 immoral acts list?


Lets start:

100: flicking your boogers at someone
99:


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is the key. Consequences.
> 
> Consequences for many who cheated is often divorce.
> 
> ...


Your last sentence expresses the consequence.

People DO leave because of it. As they should, frankly. 

For me it was PHYSICALLY intolerable. It made my body sick. It messed with my head. Sex is a need. A powerful need for any healthy adult. 

No sex = me not here.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

jaquen said:


> That's because you view sex as optional. Just one of a long line of needs and desires that can, or cannot, be met. You don't "owe" sex to anyone. However:
> 
> I owe sex to my wife.
> My wife owes sex to me.
> ...


:iagree:

Good summary. 

There are a lot of women stuck in the situation I left, involuntary celibacy within marriage. It is a tragedy. There are books written about it. Sad. 

Please imagine how sick it looks and feels for a woman to beg and beg a man for sex and have him not respond. The usual picture is the reverse (men are HD, women are LD by comparison, that's the usual complaint). When a woman begs... and gets nothing.... she blames herself, she is ugly, she stinks, she is repulsive, that must be the only explanation. It stabs so deep.

Only after I got out did I learn I was anything but repulsive and that I had done nothing wrong. 

I forgive, by celebrating my current arrangement with a man who agrees with everything you said.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

The title and poll question is a different question than the one listed in the first post.

As vow-breaking? Yes.

As "bad" as cheating? No.

Withholding is not considerate of the spouse's desire, its cruel, it breaks vows, and its the eventual death knell of any romantic relationship. Its terrible no doubt...

But it isnt betrayal. Cheating is betrayal.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Cheating involves betraying wedding vows, breaching trust with deception and lies and hurting the person you swore to protect.

Withholding sex is just kind of mean, if done out of spite and not due to medical necessity or circumstances.

My ex withheld sex from me for a time, claiming medical reasons. I was sad, but I had vowed in sickness and in health, and I got used to the disappointing idea that my marriage had changed. I felt less desired, but not less loved or loving, if that makes sense. My sense of self was still intact and my life and family was stable otherwise.

When I found out that my ex was cheating on me, which was why there was no more sex, and that the medical thing had been a lie, and so many other things were lies, like basically my whole marriage and adult life. I felt totally worthless as a person, my life was turned completely upsidedown as my family was torn apart, and I went through Hell.

There's no comparison.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

I voted yes, it is equally wrong. I don't believe in vows, but when you marry, you do make a promise to cherish your spouse and treat them right. Witholding sex is not treating them right. Neither is verbally and physically abusing them. And neither is cheating. They are a form of abuse, of break of trust and of the promise you make when you say I DO. Unless because of disability, there is no excuse for denial of sex. Just as there's no excuse for cheating.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

applying liner logic here/divorce before you start a new relationship is taught here. therefore divorce is better than cheating. Chronic willful withholding is divorce with more control of the financial fallout. Therefor withholding is better than cheating. Now withholding and fighting the divorce . . . 
Maybe I voted too fast. Ive only been the victim of non willful withholding that wasn't exactly chronic but recurred frequently. I found it damaging. I don't know if it was more or less damaging than cheating.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

What is ironic is that both withholding and cheating are acts that hurt the offender as much as the offended.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

wilson said:


> In any case, even if they were willingly withholding for a manipulative reason, it still wouldn't be 1/100th as bad as cheating. Withholding is a pretty big selfish action, but it doesn't hold a candle to the huge violation of trust that cheating involves.


Why? I am not asking that to put you on the spot. I want to know why such an act of disrespect such as withholding is not as bad as cheating? Withholding is a cruel way of communicating a total lack of respect for your partner. Both acts are immoral, thus equal in offense.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> But it isnt betrayal. Cheating is betrayal.


I'll admit to being extremely baffled as to how you don't consider THIS:



> Withholding is not considerate of the spouse's desire, its cruel, it breaks vows, and its the eventual death knell of any romantic relationship. Its terrible no doubt...


Betrayal.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jaquen said:


> That's because you view sex as optional. Just one of a long line of needs and desires that can, or cannot, be met. You don't "owe" sex to anyone.


Sex is one of my top EN, I know how important it is. It's always been more important to me than it was to him. Unfortunately, not all couples have wonderful sex like you describe. I would owe a fulfilling and exciting sex life to a respectful and considerate partner, as he would to me. I don't owe bad sex when it doesn't meet my needs and when he doesn't make the effort to make me feel loved and meet my needs outside of bed either. 

There are valid reasons to withhold sex. He is very aware of the reasons. There's a big difference between withholding to be mean and someone finally standing up and saying NO when their partner has ignored their needs all day and then wants you to "hop on" and get them off that night.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> Why? I am not asking that to put you on the spot. I want to know why such an act of disrespect such as withholding is not as bad as cheating? Withholding is a cruel way of communicating a total lack of respect for your partner. Both acts are immoral, thus equal in offense.


This was in response to where I said willful withholding is not even 1/100 as bad as cheating. Willful withholding is still bad, of course.

If one spouse is withholding as a form of manipulation, at least it's out in the open. It's a form of communication and both people can try to fix the situation. It's like saying "I hate you" to your face. You know there is a problem and you can chose to work on it or move on.

Cheating, on the other hand, is based in deceit. The cheater is hiding their actions from their partner and their partner does not have the opportunity to address the problem, whether to fix it or to move on. When the betrayed spouse finds out, they often feel like they have been living a lie. The cheater steals away part of their life. 

Marriage is supposed to be a partnership. With withholding, the person is communicating the problem, even if it's just "I won't have sex with you unless you buy me a new car." With cheating, the cheater is not treating the marriage as a partnership. They are selfishly meeting their own needs without regards to the other person. They are willfully being deceitful and violating the trust of the marriage. 

I see the cheater as being an immoral person while the willful withholder is more lacking compassion. That's why I view cheating as much worse.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

wilson said:


> I see the cheater as being an immoral person while the willful withholder is more lacking compassion. That's why I view cheating as much worse.


First of all, thanks for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful and honest response. I appreciate the discussion.

As a husband whose wife withheld for many years without giving an honest reason, I reached the point where I felt trapped. That should ring true with a lot of people. What do you want to do when feel trapped or are trapped? Escape.

An affair is only a temporary escape and eventually becomes a trap in itself. It is not the answer. But to one who already feels trapped, it is hard to call it immoral even when it seems so. 

Divorce is a difficult option for me as I would lose a lot in a divorce. Once again -- trapped.

Divorce is really not an option for me due to my being a Christ follower (I do not like to call myself a Christian due to the box that puts me in -- a Christian TRAP). My wife has not technically been unfaithful. Once again -- trapped.

And divorcing just to get out of the trap can also be immoral, maybe more wrong than cheating.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> First of all, thanks for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful and honest response. I appreciate the discussion.
> 
> As a husband whose wife withheld for many years without giving an honest reason, I reached the point where I felt trapped. That should ring true with a lot of people. What do you want to do when feel trapped or are trapped? Escape.
> 
> ...


Trapping is as immoral as cheating. 

If as a human being you find that you where trapped, manipulated or used into getting into a marriage, you have a right and a duty to release yourself.

What if you find out it was a trap from the beginning. You met a need, there was no love or compassion, and now your just figuring out.

Do you think god really would want you stay in a situation that was sent to you by the devil?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Reasonable people can disagree on whether it is immoral, dishonorable, or in conflict with God's wishes for someone to divorce when their marriage is unhappy due to their partner's actions.

Certainly some people believe that divorce is unacceptable, in which case they can find themselves completely trapped in a miserable situation.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I like what a poster earlier said about slow death vs quick demise.

If my wife cheated it would more than likely lead to a very swift, painful death to our marriage.

If my wife withheld sex willfully and chronically than it would likely lead to the slow, painful death of our marriage.

But at the end of the day, the marriage would be dead.

For me it comes down to "Do I want a bullet to the back of the head or would I rather have a rare, incurable cancer". Neither choice sounds pretty.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> First of all, thanks for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful and honest response. I appreciate the discussion.
> 
> As a husband whose wife withheld for many years without giving an honest reason, I reached the point where I felt trapped. That should ring true with a lot of people. What do you want to do when feel trapped or are trapped? Escape.
> 
> ...



I'm a Christian, or as you say, Christ follower too. Is your wife as well? If so is she aware of _1 Corinthians 7:5_ - Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. ?

As far as the immorality, are you suggesting that under the covering of Christ you never sin? The bible states when you sin, not if you sin, you have an advocate. The blood of Christ covers all sins. How is it that your wife gets to disobey her vows, discard the scriptures about withholding, and yet you feel that divorce would be so immoral despite the fact that surely you commit other sins all the time for which you were forgiven.

Divorce isn't an unforgivable sin. Sometimes you have to be real, let go, repent and move on. Nobody is suppose to be doomed to a marriage where all the other marital percepts are ignored yet stay together just because.

Christ abhors divorce. But he also gave other perimeters for how a marriage is suppose to look. He laid out a very high regard for marriage, the kind that most people would likely not want to even think of divorcing from if ALL the precepts and standards were upheld. Ignoring all of those but zoning in on the "do not divorce" part only is a recipe for disaster and a bastardization of the entire concept of what God wants marriage to look like; a beautiful reflection of the relationship between the Lord and his church.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



jaquen said:


> I like what a poster earlier said about slow death vs quick demise.
> 
> If my wife cheated it would more than likely lead to a very swift, painful death to our marriage.
> 
> ...


The difference is that one allows enough time for course correction, the other does not.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

wilson said:


> This was in response to where I said willful withholding is not even 1/100 as bad as cheating. Willful withholding is still bad, of course.
> 
> If one spouse is withholding as a form of manipulation, at least it's out in the open. It's a form of communication and both people can try to fix the situation. It's like saying "I hate you" to your face. You know there is a problem and you can chose to work on it or move on.
> 
> ...


Bait and Switch is most certainly deceit.

If you don't think withholding can be as deceitful and insidious as infidelity, then I'd say you've had it pretty good so far.

From my perspective the moral postulate gums up the works.

You may have been the most heartless SOB on the planet and treated your spouse like crap. But ... if you choose to have your emotional needs met outside the marriage, then everyone gets to point their finger at you and say your immoral.

You can shine a spot-light on someone and say, "You chose to have an affair."

That just doesn't happen with a toxic marriage, barren of intimacy. That scenario is instead a punchline. People point and laugh, or nod at the in-joke that that is what marriage is. When I had decided to leave my wife, and told my friend one of my primary reasons why, he said those very words, "Deej, that's what marriage is." To which I responded, "Then I don't want to be married."

We have an exciting little thread going on right now, posted by a woman who all too conveniently utterly and absolutely fits the mold of an over-entitled, sexually disinterested, and acting dumbfounded that sex is even an emotional need for men, just as long as she gets a nap.
While her husband dotes on her, actively cares for their child, goes so far as insist she take time for herself, all the while she's put out the moment he hints at wanting to do something for himself ... would you care to guess what the primary response to this poster is?

Our moral position can shift on a dime based on the surrounding circumstances.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> The difference is that one allows enough time for course correction, the other does not.


A seeming luxury.

But if my spouse started withholding on me, which is a huge violation in the very essence of how we see ourselves in this marriage, there is potentially a ton of damage already done even before "course correction".

I don't, and won't, beg for sex. Unless I know that I'm violating my wife in a very strong, obscene manner there are almost no legitimate reasons why either one of us would withhold chronically and on purpose. We both feel this way. Something would begin dying in us if either one of us even took a road of withholding. That's the problem with "course correction"; the obstacles that even led to the withholding my by astronomical enough that the very fact that a course correction is needed irreparably damage might have ensued.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



jaquen said:


> A seeming luxury.
> 
> But if my spouse started withholding on me, which is a huge violation in the very essence of how we see ourselves in this marriage, there is potentially a ton of damage already done even before "course correction".
> 
> I don't, and won't, beg for sex. Unless I know that I'm violating my wife in a very strong, obscene manner there are almost no legitimate reasons why either one of us would withhold chronically and on purpose. We both feel this way. Something would begin dying in us if either one of us even took a road of withholding. That's the problem with "course correction"; the obstacles that even led to the withholding my by astronomical enough that the very fact that a course correction is needed irreparably damage might have ensued.


But is withholding the same thing as making your spouse beg for it? Making someone beg for it is certainly unkind, but it needn't go that far to still be something that can happen in a relationship.

If there was some need of here that YOU were withholding, wouldn't you expect her to withhold sex from you until you get to the cause?

What if you weren't withholding, but she felt like and thought you were withholding, wouldn't you expect her to withhold in that case too, until the two of you could communicate?

Now what if you were withholding something from her and refused to change?

I think this is the kind of "chronic" withholding you are referring to. I agree chronic withholding means there is major underlying damage, but even periodic withholding has the same cause, just better communication and relationship skills help overcome that, but just how long does a period last until one or the other deem it chronic? It is up to each individual, and there is nothing too big for a couple to overcome if they both choose to do the work to overcome it. Same goes for cheating the suppose, however at least before there is a third party in the marriage there is a chance for monogamy, loyalty and trust to prevail.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Bait and Switch is most certainly deceit.
> 
> If you don't think withholding can be as deceitful and insidious as infidelity, then I'd say you've had it pretty good so far.
> 
> ...


So much of this thread is based on the idea that one person isn't getting their sexual needs met, so they go outside of the marriage.

I know a couple who had a healthy sex life (her words), but he ended up in an affair and now they are separated. She put up with a lot and he didn't appreciate it and then went further and took what he felt like he wanted. 

Their marriage could have been saved if he had opened up about what was bothering him. It wasn't lack of sex, but he ended up with sex outside of marriage. I'm sure it makes her feel even worse that she was having sex with him, but apparently what she brought to the bedroom wasn't enough. And she's beautiful by the way, in great shape, and a nice person.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Most definitely. I feel very strongly about this. If you aren't going to make love with your spouse, then how are you going to keep them from temptation?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I go back and forth on this subject. 

If the withholding is done consciously as a malicious and/or punitive gesture then yes, I believe withholding is equally as wrong as cheating.

If the withholding is done unconsciously because the withholder's own needs are not being met and maybe they are finding their spouse unattractive because of said unmet needs then no, I don't believe withholding is equally wrong as cheating. Especially if the withholder has communicated their issues with their spouse and the spouse has pretty much just ignore it.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> If the withholding is done unconsciously because the withholder's own needs are not being met and maybe they are finding their spouse unattractive because of said unmet needs then no, I don't believe withholding is equally wrong as cheating. Especially if the withholder has communicated their issues with their spouse and the spouse has pretty much just ignore it.


If that is the case, then the withholder is acting selfishly.. and destroying their marriage out of such selfishness. And withholding can not be an unconscious act. Sorry, but I just don't buy that. Breaking emotional contact by breaking physical contact and affection is also breaking communication, not fair to the person that has received a vow of love....


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> If there was some need of here that YOU were withholding, wouldn't you expect her to withhold sex from you until you get to the cause?....


Withholding, for any considerable amount of time, is not allowed in our marriage.

Period.

We both need sex. Equally. If there is an issue that causes a brief, temporary disruption in sex that's fine. We'll deal. Long term? Nope. Why? Because NOT having sex only exacerbates the issues. It does neither of us any good to withhold sex even in the face of other issues if the withholding of sex is only going to make us feel even more disconnected. 

Having sex actually can help you get through other issues. It's a great emotional shorthand and salve. It can help sooth, bind and bond you in powerful ways that can aide in shoring up cracks in other areas.



Lon said:


> but just how long does a period last until one or the other deem it chronic? It is up to each individual...


Yep, like you said, definitely up to the individuals. In my marriage I'd say anything beyond 2 weeks, max, without a reasonable excuse, like a trip out of town, injury, grief, etc, is chronically withholding.

Bottom line if my wife or I got to the point where we just decided that we're taking sex off the table, unilaterally, for no reasonable (to us) reason it would be the beginning of the end of us.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

ebp123 said:


> So much of this thread is based on the idea that one person isn't getting their sexual needs met, so they go outside of the marriage.
> 
> I know a couple who had a healthy sex life (her words), but he ended up in an affair and now they are separated. She put up with a lot and he didn't appreciate it and then went further and took what he felt like he wanted.
> 
> Their marriage could have been saved if he had opened up about what was bothering him. It wasn't lack of sex, but he ended up with sex outside of marriage. I'm sure it makes her feel even worse that she was having sex with him, but apparently what she brought to the bedroom wasn't enough. And she's beautiful by the way, in great shape, and a nice person.


It's definitely not talked about enough on this board the fact that some people do cheat just because they want some strange.

No deeper issues. No problem with the marriage, their spouse's looks, temperment, or personality. 

They just are hungry for other people. That simple.

It's just very difficult for some people to accept that there are those who will cheat no matter how good they have it. It makes them feel powerless.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

That's your marriage though. That's not how it works in every marriage. It works for yours, fine. It wouldn't work for mine. 

I don't have sex with my husband if we're fighting. He doesn't want to and neither do I. We fix the issue first. 

And what do you mean by withholding? Refusal to have sex at all? Not being sufficiently enthusiastic? Not wanting it as much as the other person but doing your best to satisfy them? 

If someone doesn't want to have sex, then do they have to go through with it anyway and fake enjoyment?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vivid said:


> That's your marriage though. That's not how it works in every marriage. It works for yours, fine. It wouldn't work for mine.


That goes without saying, no? Aren't all of us making commentary based off what works...for our marriages?



Vivid said:


> I don't have sex with my husband if we're fighting. He doesn't want to and neither do I. We fix the issue first.


If my wife and I have an issues (we don't fight) than yes we're going to work through that issue. Assuming the issue is something that can be settled fairly quickly, say in a week or so.

If we have an ongoing issue, something that might take weeks or months to work out? No, we would not withhold for that long.



Vivid said:


> And what do you mean by withholding? Refusal to have sex at all? Not being sufficiently enthusiastic? Not wanting it as much as the other person but doing your best to satisfy them?
> 
> If someone doesn't want to have sex, then do they have to go through with it anyway and fake enjoyment?


In our case, a refusal to have sex. We don't do pity, duty, or "fake enjoyment" sex so none of the rest of that applies to us personally. 

If one of us doesn't want to have sex we simply say no.

But that "no" isn't outright refusal, it's always either an explicitly stated or an implied "not at the moment, but soon".


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

There is a big difference if the couple tries to reconcile. You can start giving it up again and recover from withholding. You can't un-eff the OM/OW.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

Obviously we're all extrapolating from our own marriages. But by setting up this poll and asking the very black and white question "is sexual withholding as bad as cheating" you're asking people to extrapolate to a degree that is not helpful. Because in your case, as you both want to have sex, withholding would be an unreasonable, pretty inexplicable act. It would be an act of aggression. So yes it's as bad. But what if the circumstances are different, and I'd say your situation is more the exception than the rule, at least over the decades of a long-lasting marriage. 

What if, for whatever reason, one of you doesn't WANT to have sex for a period longer than two weeks. What then? Do it anyway? 

I've never personally either withheld or cheated. But I've had two children, I'm in my early 40s and my hormones are changing. I don't always want sex. I do still have sex, but it's an effort at times. It's an effort I'm happy to make, but I can imagine, if things change more, it's going to get harder. What then? HRT with its increased cancer risk? Lying back and thinking of England?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Vivid said:


> Obviously we're all extrapolating from our own marriages. But by setting up this poll and asking the very black and white question "is sexual withholding as bad as cheating" you're asking people to extrapolate to a degree that is not helpful. Because in your case, as you both want to have sex, withholding would be an unreasonable, pretty inexplicable act. It would be an act of aggression. So yes it's as bad. But what if the circumstances are different, and I'd say your situation is more the exception than the rule, at least over the decades of a long-lasting marriage.
> 
> What if, for whatever reason, one of you doesn't WANT to have sex for a period longer than two weeks. What then? Do it anyway?
> 
> I've never personally either withheld or cheated. But I've had two children, I'm in my early 40s and my hormones are changing. I don't always want sex. I do still have sex, but it's an effort at times. It's an effort I'm happy to make, but I can imagine, if things change more, it's going to get harder. What then? HRT with its increased cancer risk? Lying back and thinking of England?


For all of the back and forth that we have here regarding sexuality, this is one of the reasons I struggle with the concept forwarded by those who emphatically state that women are more sexually responsive than men. Not saying you are one of them Vivid, you're post just got me thinking about it.

Maybe so, but if so, it is indeed an arc, a spectrum and it is far more susceptible to precipitous swings than any male I know.

Women are New England. Men are San Diego.

The flat out horniest woman I have ever had the pleasure of pleasuring had a hysterectomy 15 years ago. Her libido is much more like a man's. So much so that it was a substantial factor in her decision to leave her husband. I asked if her strong sex drive started in her 40's. She said nope, she's always been high drive.

I quoted Vivid because I do wonder about that whole concept of, 



> I don't always want sex. I do still have sex, but it's an effort at times. It's an effort I'm happy to make, but I can imagine, if things change more, it's going to get harder. What then?


Are you really happy to oblige? Or is that bit of you that feels like you are conceding something? When you say "it's going to get harder." That implies that you already feel, believe, that sex in not only not a priority for you, but something to be avoided. It somehow switches the connotation from being an opportunity to share intimacy with my partner, to a chore, a burden, and something to be avoided. 

THAT is what I really would like to come to understand. And certainly not because I'm angry about it. I just find it fascinating, and in many cases, tragic.

I've been fortunate in my dating history since divorce. All but one of the women I have been involved with have been extraordinarily sexually responsive. And in the case of the one, she outright said to me, "I honestly wouldn't care if I never had sex again. And I'm guessing you wouldn't be ok with that."
To which my response was, "You guessed correct."

And one of the kicker's for me, going back to my failed marriage, is that I KNOW my ex-wife is also extraordinarily sexually responsive. It just seems to have a shelf life before she decides, "It's not ok to do that anymore." or "I just don't feel like it anymore."

I would love to understand this. I truly would. The bottom line is that the preponderance of what we discuss on this very board has directly to do with exactly this dynamic; men or women who love their spouse, but their spouse is sexually disengaged.

This is also why I also believe that infidelity and sexual abandonment (withholding makes it sound mundane and palatable) are effectively different roads off the same path.

There may be distinctly be underlying reasons for the behavior on the part of either spouse. Not meeting needs, withdrawal, addiction, anger, abuse ... etc.

Or, there may be nothing. From any outside observer, or even those in the relationship, everything is 'all good'. Yet in either scenario, you have one partner likely hiding the fact that they are seething with resentment but won't bring it up for fear of mockery or further denial and rejection.

Or, one partner is blissfully going through the motions of a loving, supportive marriage whilst either bumping uglies with someone other than their spouse, or being oblivious to the emotional well-being of their spouse.

The discovery, and disclosure of either of these marital issues is where the road takes a drastic turn.

People will say, "There is no reason that validates cheating." And I agree.

But people hesitate to say, "There is no reason that validates sexual abandonment." And then come up with a rash of examples of why it is perfectly appropriate.

I submit that those same circumstances are EXACTLY why either the outcomes of abandonment or infidelity occur at all. Unless of course we're talking about those who simply make either choice as an exercise in power, or to prove they can. Those exist too.

In sum, to my mind both are evidence of highly dysfunctional relationships, and they are synergistic. 

The paths leading to either outcome are virtually unfaltering in their similarity.

Therefore it's better to do preventive maintenance, rather than looking for a way to fix the dynamic once it has been broken.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

I think most women's sexual attraction to and interest in one, long-term, monogamous partner has a shelf-life of between 4-7 years. I think biologically speaking, that women's sexuality is generally more dependent on novelty than men's. 

I'm sure that will not be a particularly popular idea. But it explains a lot of sexual issues. I believe it's often absolutely true when women say they don't know why they don't want sex with their husbands.

From a personal point of view, who knows. I love my husband very much. I'm attracted to him, he's sexually very skilled. My libido has gone up and down in the past, hopefully it will go up again. Until then, I depend on my fairly reliable responsive desire to keep us sexually connected.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sometimes, it can be likened to...this is tough to put into words. 

Did you ever have a hobby that you were really into. You wanted to know everything about it and get all the accessories or videos, audio tutorials, etc. You wanted to be in a club with others doing the same thing. Eventually, over decades, you did all that you desired. You answered your questions. You played all the different scenerios out in real life. You took the hobby to your limit. You are fulfilled and want to sell all that stuff except for a few things and move on to another hobby. 

When you think of that one, you smile, but you don't want to revisit it. When someone asks you about it, you don't think too deeply about it unless you try. You just don't really care to go there any more. You believe you've exhausted the experience and any further would just taint all the rest. It would make the old hobby less palatable. You know it can never be as good as it was. Satisfying, yes, but not as good. More effort to just be okay. 

Some of that reads like boredom. Ha

That's sort of the way I was thinking about it. I found that the ex wasn't all that interested in exploring things. She didn't talk much about it. She likely didn't want me to think she was less respectable than I believed. If she told me what was on her mind, she would have exposed herself to me. 

So, out to strangers to get what she couldn't ask from me. Unreal. I'll never understand how someone could trust a stranger more than a spouse.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I want to believe that in many cases that the problem in a sexless marriage has as much to do with other issues as it does with lack of sex. The typical problem scenario here is one person is HD and the other is LD. They drift further and further apart in their sexual desires, but why?? I know the HD person needs sex, but what is going on with the LD person and can the HD and LD person work together to fix it?

I shared this on another thread regarding why I'm LD. I'll share it here so that others who are HD and struggling with their LD spouse can understand that there are many fixable reasons for no sex other than the LD person is purposefully withholding:

Every time I have sex, there's a risk of UTI. From the time I first feel it to the time I'm literally urinating red with blood is just a few hours. It's awful. I solved that by ensuring we both shower and he washes his hands well, but it's still in the back of my mind.

I also have a difficult time reaching climax. It goes from being enjoyable to me feeling like I have to because he wants to give me an O. So I try to give him what he wants... Strange as that sounds. I wish men's egos weren't so tied up in giving their SO an O, but most are. I'd rather he didn't care and let it be ok if I don't come. Also, not being able to have an O without a lot of work makes me feel broken in some way. Like there's something wrong with how I'm made.

My H treats sex like getting each other off. I've watched him thrusting, holding off, starting again, repeat. I was just his means of pleasuring himself, and I don't like that at all. I don't O through PIV, so he's doing this purely for himself. 

We haven't had sex in nearly 5 years.

He doesn't initiate at all. I think it's because he assumes I won't reciprocate and because he can't/won't do what is necessary to meet my needs. 

I have spoken to him on many occasions about what I would need from him to be sexually responsive, but he isn't capable of meeting my needs. I want him to be a more positive person. I'd like to enjoy my time with him instead of our time being based on completing a set of tasks. He'll wash the dishes, do the laundry, pay the bills, get the oil changed in my car, but none of that will make me feel emotionally connected to him because I can do all of those things. What I need is connection and enjoyment in our marriage. I want to look forward to seeing him. Instead, I dread coming home on Friday evenings because I know we will have many hours together during which I feel very much alone. I've had to train myself to not open up to him b/c he will use what I share as a means of attacking me when he's angry. He will also derail problem solving with attacks, non-responsiveness, always/never thinking, and defensiveness. 

So... while many on here would say that what I'm doing is wrong, it's not like I haven't tried. And I will say (at the risk of having my a-- handed to me here) that I don't want sex with him for a simple reason that I know I can meet his needs but he won't meet mine. In this scenario, if we had sex, he would just go about his business and think all is well, meanwhile I'm left lonely and empty.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A "victim" spouse of cheating might not even be aware of the cheating. One could conceivably cheat but still take care of all their spouse's basic needs. Their spouse could still feel quite loved and cared for, completely oblivious to their own victimization. There is no way to deliberately withhold sex from one's spouse without that spouse being dehumanized. If friends, family, or the courts discover one has been the victim of an extramarital affair, there is boundless sympathy for the victim and outrage and condemnation for the perp. In the case of withholding, there is nothing for the victim but possible blame for their own victimization.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> A "victim" spouse of cheating might not even be aware of the cheating. One could conceivably cheat but still take care of all their spouse's basic needs. Their spouse could still feel quite loved and cared for, completely oblivious to their own victimization. There is no way to deliberately withhold sex from one's spouse without that spouse being dehumanized. If friends, family, or the courts discover one has been the victim of an extramarital affair, there is boundless sympathy for the victim and outrage and condemnation for the perp. In the case of withholding, there is nothing for the victim but possible blame for their own victimization.


By this logic, it's better to cheat and not get caught, since you aren't hurting anyone??


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

That's what my wife thought she was doing. She figured I didn't know. I didn't know of some of it. I knew of part of it. I thought it stopped. I was demoralized continuously over a period of four to five years and ended up in a mental hospital for a few days. I still can't believe I didn't know. I do not trust myself any more. I do not trust women enough to date them. What good came out of that? Can my ex truly claim she was living a sexless life? That's what she has used as an excuse. In the end, we divorced. What might have been a better way to handle that? What might have caused us to be friends today instead of me never wanting to see that dirt bag again? I don't even want to see any men we knew. I believe she slept with many of the men who were acquaintances in my life. What might have made a difference in our lives and not harmed either of us?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



Vivid said:


> I think most women's sexual attraction to and interest in one, long-term, monogamous partner has a shelf-life of between 4-7 years. I think biologically speaking, that women's sexuality is generally more dependent on novelty than men's.
> 
> I'm sure that will not be a particularly popular idea. But it explains a lot of sexual issues. I believe it's often absolutely true when women say they don't know why they don't want sex with their husbands.
> 
> From a personal point of view, who knows. I love my husband very much. I'm attracted to him, he's sexually very skilled. My libido has gone up and down in the past, hopefully it will go up again. Until then, I depend on my fairly reliable responsive desire to keep us sexually connected.


My ex used to say all of the time, she didn't know why. I loathed that answer.

I appreciate your straightforward response, Vivid. And truth be told, I agree with you on every point. 

Hoped maybe I was missing something.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Not wanting sex is often a very poor excuse to deny sex. Once you get started - even reluctantly - it's often very enjoyable. This is often true when hormones are a problem when you get older. You have to _remember _that you like sex and it's important to the relationship, and make an effort to either overcome that initial resistance, or respond to your spouse's overtures.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

By the logic of some of you, sneaking next door to eat a sandwich once in a while is worse than deliberately starving your partner. How insane is that?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Having been cheated on and having had sex withheld for months on end, I personally prefer the former. Being cheated on makes you pissed off but having affection/sex serially withheld transforms the victim into something less than completely human.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



unbelievable said:


> By the logic of some of you, sneaking next door to eat a sandwich once in a while is worse than deliberately starving your partner. How insane is that?


I don't click'em, I state'm.

Like.

UB, you work in analogies like the master impressionists worked with oils and canvas.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Like a happy little bird, I just poop seeds. Occasionally, one sprouts.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A spouse who serially and deliberately withholds sex can no more be the victim of adultery than someone can be the victim of larceny for the loss of property they abandoned or threw in the trash. If you aren't at least trying to attend to your spouse, it's none of your business who is.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> By the logic of some of you, sneaking next door to eat a sandwich once in a while is worse than deliberately starving your partner. How insane is that?


I know of no woman who deliberately starves their partner. Sorry, I just don't. I know of lots of women who have legitimate reasons for not having sex. I provided mine in an earlier thread (and another one here) and not a single person had a response. It seems that legitimate reasons are ignored in favor of your previously established and thus unerring perspective.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

They are more afraid of divorce than I was. I like sandwiches. I don't like infidelity. Infidelity shows how weak a person is.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> If you aren't at least trying to attend to your spouse, it's none of your business who is.


Let me rephrase: If you won't put out, I'm going to get mine and you have lost any legitimate reason to even inquire about my sexual exploits outside our marriage.

Or maybe: put out or I'm gonna get mine on the side instead of having the guts to address the issue and/or leave.

What a mighty fine piece of advice to all the HD spouses out there.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

ebp123 said:


> I know of no woman who deliberately starves their partner. Sorry, I just don't. I know of lots of women who have legitimate reasons for not having sex. I provided mine in an earlier thread (and another one here) and not a single person had a response. It seems that legitimate reasons are ignored in favor of your previously established and thus unerring perspective.


:iagree:

It's like they don't want to admit or look at the part they play in the sexless or near sexless marriage. 

In my case, there were a couple of issues but the main one was the only time I received any affection was at 2am, when he finally decided to get off the computer and come to bed and he wanted to have sex. He was gone or leaving to go to the gym when I got home from work. He would come home 2-3 hours later and then eat his dinner at 10pm (we never ate together) then get on the computer. Weekends were for golf. We didn't spend any time together. Maybe on Sundays we would sit on the couch together and he would have golf or football on the T.V. If we did go out I would have to make the plans. This was pretty much the first 5 years marriage before we had kids. I remember crying myself to sleep because I was lonely. I would talk to him and things would get better for a week or so then go back. I was working full time and taking care of the house and cooking all by myself. I felt like a roommate and housekeeper that was used for sex AND brought home a paycheck instead getting paid. He was spending more time interacting with workout and golf buddies than with his wife. It was like once we got married, he turned off all romance, courting and dating. (I always have a mental picture of him as a blackjack dealer when they are done with their shift and they kind of clap and show their hands to say they are done and out.)

Now tell me, does the above sound like a man that's attracting his wife? Making her want to have sex with him? I'm probably medium to high drive but I'm not going to have sex with someone that doesn't seem to give a **** about me. We weren't even sexless. We probably had sex every 7 to 10 days but it was duty sex on my part because I felt guilty if I didn't. I didn't feel wanted or desired. At the time I was in my late 20's and I couldn't figure out why I didn't want to have sex with my husband. I just knew I was turned off by him. I felt like I was a hole to put his penis in. There wasn't TAM or the like back then to help figure things out.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ebp123 said:


> I know of no woman who deliberately starves their partner. Sorry, I just don't. I know of lots of women who have legitimate reasons for not having sex. I provided mine in an earlier thread (and another one here) and not a single person had a response. It seems that legitimate reasons are ignored in favor of your previously established and thus unerring perspective.


Really? You don't know any women who have functioning bodies and sane minds but also have sex deprived husbands? I am sure that all withholders believe they have legitimate reasons for withholding, just as all child sex abusers, all bank robbers, all drug dealers, and all murderers, all embezzlers, all wife beaters, and all adulterers believe they have legitimate reasons for their poor conduct. Humans are capable of justifying to themselves, all manner of evil. 

What legitimate reason might a wife have for castrating her husband (which would actually be far less cruel than withholding)?


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## dcFlorida (Sep 14, 2014)

Legally, you do not need a reason to divorce someone in most states. 'no fault' rule.
That being said, legally, your spouse could be cheating and you would have same grounds to divorce her as someone who was not. 
Question I think is more of 'is it moral' and what is acceptable? 
My take on it is that any manipulation, using sex as a weapon, lying, infidelity (of mind and or physical) is breaking a marriage vow and just shades of gray. 
Pretending it is not this is denial.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Not wanting sex is often a very poor excuse to deny sex. Once you get started - even reluctantly - it's often very enjoyable. This is often true when hormones are a problem when you get older. You have to _remember _that you like sex and it's important to the relationship, and make an effort to either overcome that initial resistance, or respond to your spouse's overtures.


I agree with this and think it works well if the relationship is sound and both parties have good feelings and intentions towards one another.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Really? You don't know any women who have functioning bodies and sane minds but also have sex deprived husbands? I am sure that all withholders believe they have legitimate reasons for withholding, just as all child sex abusers, all bank robbers, all drug dealers, and all murderers, all embezzlers, all wife beaters, and all adulterers believe they have legitimate reasons for their poor conduct. Humans are capable of justifying to themselves, all manner of evil.
> 
> What legitimate reason might a wife have for castrating her husband (which would actually be far less cruel than withholding)?


It's not just women who withhold. There are at least three threads that I've read since I've been here from women with LD/withholding husbands. 

And there are plenty of legitimate reasons for either spouse to not have sex with the other. 

-abuse - physical or emotional
-neglect as detailed above by soccermomto3
-cheating on the part of the other spouse

All those other overblown comparisons you made are actual crimes. Sexual withholding and cheating are not. 

If one spouse loses interest in sex and can't/won't get it back, then monogamy should be abandoned. Especially if there are children, it would be much better to open things up than divorce. I don't know why this isn't suggested more.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> Really? You don't know any women who have functioning bodies and sane minds but also have sex deprived husbands? I am sure that all withholders believe they have legitimate reasons for withholding, just as all child sex abusers, all bank robbers, all drug dealers, and all murderers, all embezzlers, all wife beaters, and all adulterers believe they have legitimate reasons for their poor conduct. Humans are capable of justifying to themselves, all manner of evil.
> 
> What legitimate reason might a wife have for castrating her husband (which would actually be far less cruel than withholding)?


Both myself and soccermom provided our reasons in this thread, so your question has been answered twice by two different people could you be bothered to look.
And I will also say that your ugly comparative, hyperbolic rhetoric is very telling. Rather than address the issues at hand, you blow your top. Given your profession, I suspect you have seen the results or the real crimes you stated were also evil. Why the evasion? Isn't that what accuse LD spouses of?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Did withholding work as a tool to fix your marriage, ebp? If so, great. If not, did you end the marriage? (Sorry, but I'm not going to search for your post.) I agree that there are valid reasons to withhold, but also think that there is a limit on how long that choice is valid.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Married but Happy said:


> Did withholding work as a tool to fix your marriage, ebp? If so, great. If not, did you end the marriage? (Sorry, but I'm not going to search for your post.) I agree that there are valid reasons to withhold, but also think that there is a limit on how long that choice is valid.


I do not withhold, first of all. My H doesn't initiate and neither do I. 

As for my reasons, I will say them again: 

1) I can get a UTI from sex very easily. From the time I feel it until the time I am urinating red with blood is just a few hours. 

2) It's a lot of work for me to O, and I wish it were ok if I didn't. But his ego is so tied up in giving me one that I feel like I'm letting him down if I don't have one. I end up feeling like I need to have an O just to make him happy. Not good.

3) My H treats sex like getting each other off. He will get going, hold off, and restart again and again. I don't O from PIV, so basically I'm just a means of pleasuring himself. As soccermom said, I'm just a hole.

There you have it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Then if you are just a hole to your husband it's time to file.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



ebp123 said:


> I want to believe that in many cases that the problem in a sexless marriage has as much to do with other issues as it does with lack of sex. The typical problem scenario here is one person is HD and the other is LD. They drift further and further apart in their sexual desires, but why?? I know the HD person needs sex, but what is going on with the LD person and can the HD and LD person work together to fix it?
> 
> I shared this on another thread regarding why I'm LD. I'll share it here so that others who are HD and struggling with their LD spouse can understand that there are many fixable reasons for no sex other than the LD person is purposefully withholding:
> 
> ...


I appreciate your candor very much. I'm sorry that I missed this earlier. 
My ex could have written your post a decade ago. Except for the looking for ways to compromise piece you added.

Don't know how much of my history you have seen.

My ex developed a full blown sexual aversion to me; to the point that any expression of physical affection on my part was seen as a pretext for sex ... so she would cringe if I so much as reached for her hand.

She got UTI's every time we had intercourse over 2 years. We attempted intercourse fewer than 10 times during that period. She had dyspareunia. All of this developed after having a very robust, and no holds barred sex life for nearly 4 years. It all worsened post marriage. We fooled around, and attempted intercourse once on our honeymoon.

At the start we communicated. She felt horrible. I loved her, didn't want to hurt my wife.

But by the end of the road, (and I'm not insinuating this is your case) she would have painted me very much like you have described your husband. Uncaring, selfish, sexually aberrant, and only wanting to use her to get off. "Seems all you want me for is sex."
That was the mantra, despite the fact I would only approach her twice a month at that point, and by that time there was zero expectation of intercourse or oral. Co - masturbating was our 'sex'. And even that was seen as onerous. 

My point is, I wasn't the guy she believed me to be. She just needed to believe it to validate the abandonment. 

And I know she wasn't the woman she had become. Our dynamic just became utterly dysfunctional. Had I chosen to remain in the marriage, I do not doubt that had an affair opportunity come up, I would have taken it. I left first.

I think our case is not the norm. But it would seem to me that if we can keep attraction, desire, and communication firmly in place, than regular, enjoyable, and mutually satisfying sexual intimacy should be a natural consequence.

Yet instead, we read about stories like yours, mine, and many of the people I know.

HD vs. LD should never net out to a failed intimate relationship. Yet that instead is the common outcome.

Thanks again for sharing. Made me wince reading it. Reminded me very much of what happened to my ex.

Were you always LD?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

richie33 said:


> Then if you are just a hole to your husband it's time to file.


I plan to. I have about a year to suck it up and handle things financially, and then I will move out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ebp123 said:


> Both myself and soccermom provided our reasons in this thread, so your question has been answered twice by two different people could you be bothered to look.
> And I will also say that your ugly comparative, hyperbolic rhetoric is very telling. Rather than address the issues at hand, you blow your top. Given your profession, I suspect you have seen the results or the real crimes you stated were also evil. Why the evasion? Isn't that what accuse LD spouses of?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My evasiveness? Oh, that's just me being politically correct. You know I hate to ever offend anyone so I've learned to be the king of subtlety. I must say, you are the first person to ever give me credit for evasion. I'm usually accused of being rather blunt.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



richie33 said:


> Then if you are just a hole to your husband it's time to file.


I can say with confidence if someone were to define my marital dynamic like that, 7 years ago, as heartbroken, frustrated and angry I was at the time, I would have choked them out. Because it wasn't that simple and it wasn't true. To her credit, even my ex would acknowledge this now.

If this is truly the case for ebp, then I feel for the both of them. It's hard for me to imagine that her husband is truly that callous. But i can easily imagine that the walls between them have become insurmountable.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm not sure why it's a debate. Your partner either wants to have sex with you, or not. 

Obviously, cheating is bad and wrong. We know this. Withholding, if for a long time ON PURPOSE, is also wrong. Are they equal? Umm no. 

Here's why:

STDs 
Pregnancy
Crazy OM/OW coming around trying to stomp your marriage

Withholding doesn't do any of that. What withholding does do is destroy your partner emotionally. 

However, if you are withholding from resentment maybe that partner has destroyed you emotionally. Even Steven? nah, that's just immature. 

There was a point when I wasn't having sex with my H. It was a rare point in our relationship because I very much desire him and I have the higher drive. He cheated on me for no other reason than because he could. he admitted this and it destroyed me. I couldn't sleep with someone who would do that to me. It took a while before I even could look at him as someone I would have sex with. At that time I was also talking to him about divorce so it wasn't unclear to him as to why things were the way they were. 

My H also liked to NOT touch me until 3 minutes before he was ready to have sex. He would literally ignore me all day and then, all of a sudden grab a boob and expect me to be ready to go to the rodeo all night. Uh no. It doesn't work that way. Sorry. 

We have worked that out for now. There is still some hurt from the affair, but he has improved dramatically on that end as well as showing affection throughout the day. It makes getting in the mood that much easier because he's shown me all day that he desires me VS me just being a warm masturbation toy. It's been almost 2 years since the affair and I think he has proven that he is trying. That means the most to me.

So, I don't think that many people withhold to hurt their partner. I think the person withholding is feeling hurt sometimes. That should be worked out. Of course if you have zero intention of working it out - just divorce. Because there is no excuse to withhold long term OR to cheat


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I can say with confidence if someone were to define my marital dynamic like that, 7 years ago, as heartbroken, frustrated and angry I was at the time, I would have choked them out. Because it wasn't that simple and it wasn't true. To her credit, even my ex would acknowledge this now.
> 
> If this is truly the case for ebp, then I feel for the both of them. It's hard for me to imagine that her husband is truly that callous. But i can easily imagine that the walls between them have become insurmountable.


I do not know her story but those were her words. I can not imagine spending years with another human being building a life together, sharing a journey and then treating them so callous as to treat them as just a hole. It must be truly heart breaking. My sympathies.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



soccermom2three said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It's like they don't want to admit or look at the part they play in the sexless or near sexless marriage.


I don't discount the remainder of your post at all. Sounds like you were emotionally abandoned. 

But your words above are what stand out to me. Because in my case you would have to flip that around. At the end of our marriage, my ex stated that she felt emotionally abandoned ... but simply was incapable of seeing that my behavior was a direct result of her abandonment of me. I found it remarkable. She flat out didn't see it, or couldn't see it.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I can say with confidence if someone were to define my marital dynamic like that, 7 years ago, as heartbroken, frustrated and angry I was at the time, I would have choked them out. Because it wasn't that simple and it wasn't true. To her credit, even my ex would acknowledge this now.
> 
> If this is truly the case for ebp, then I feel for the both of them. It's hard for me to imagine that her husband is truly that callous. But i can easily imagine that the walls between them have become insurmountable.


He isn't callous so much as Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Literally. He "hides" from addressing the issues. And in the interest of full disclosure, years of emotional neglect have left me angry and I am not fun for him to be with anymore. I once was. Regarding sex, I am a hole. He isn't capable of connecting emotionally, so this is his default.

The most bitter pill here is he could have everything he wants if he would just open up and not be so afraid to address the issues at hand. But he won't.

I'm 9 years his junior, attractive, fun-loving, a good wage earner in my own right, and I bring whatever joy there is to our home life. He is an island unto himself. Doesn't believe in counseling, in doctors, in openness, and he trusts no one. Sad sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> My evasiveness? Oh, that's just me being politically correct. You know I hate to ever offend anyone so I've learned to be the king of subtlety. I must say, you are the first person to ever give me credit for evasion. I'm usually accused of being rather blunt.


Then address my reasons. We've spent many posts going around and around while my reasons are still unaddressed by you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I appreciate your candor very much. I'm sorry that I missed this earlier.
> My ex could have written your post a decade ago. Except for the looking for ways to compromise piece you added.
> 
> Don't know how much of my history you have seen.
> ...


To address your last question, yes I have always been LD. But when my heart is in it, my body is too. When my heart is removed, my body followss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

staarz21 said:


> So, I don't think that many people withhold to hurt their partner. I think the person withholding is feeling hurt sometimes. That should be worked out.


Sometimes I commit bad forum etiquette. This is one of those times by skipping ahead to this page - but this would absolutely sum up what was happening with my husband and I. 

Thing is, just as he lost desire for me because of his feeling emotionally hurt/resentful... what I failed to realize was how I was doing the same thing in other areas of our life. I can look back now and see what my behavior signaled to him and the crap I was doing. I cringe just thinking about it. Which occurred first? Does it even matter? It became a push/pull in different areas but we were both seeking validation while not communicating effectively - at the time we barely knew what it all meant ourselves. 

Once the dynamic was recognized, and that can be a hard pill to swallow at first, then it was like a tapestry being unraveled with family of origin stuff, the whole thing. We started realizing we had stuff that we needed to learn about ourselves as well as one another. Sex was just the signal of a bigger picture. 



staarz21 said:


> Of course if you have zero intention of working it out - just divorce.


Absolutely agree. Although when we started working on our issues, we didn't put a result or outcome on it. We just let things unfold. Together we did end up with a healthier marriage and learned a hell of a lot. I may cringe at aspects of my past self but facing that is what lead me to where I am now. Him facing his stuff is what lead him to where he is now. We're still a work in progress but I'm so grateful for our marriage and I adore my husband. If either of us weren't willing to truly work on ourselves and the marriage though, we would have parted ways.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Of the three counselors I've ever talked to in my life, regarding relationships every single one of them has said (as if it were the first lesson from the first chapter of MC University) "every relationship hinges on these two steps 1) what are each spouses needs 2) what is each of the other spouses willing to do to help their spouse meet those needs"

If one spouse is preventing the other from fulfilling their sexual needs, and is unwilling to address the issue, then the unhappy spouse has to decide for themselves what to do about it. They could a) end the relationship to have that need meet with someone else, b) take matters into their own hands so to speak c) do nothing and complain about it d) seek extramarital affair.

So it comes down to individual morals. For me, infidelity is much further down the wrong path than a withholding spouse.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> There is a big difference if the couple tries to reconcile. You can start giving it up again and recover from withholding. You can't un-eff the OM/OW.


True, you can't unfvck the OM/OW. What is also true is you cannot go back and have sex with you sex starved spouse 6 months ago either. Both cases involve a loss of love that was meant for the aggrieved spouse. Whether the R is for cheating, a sexless marriage or for some other reason, the only thing you can do is to commit to the vows you made to each other.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Not wanting sex is often a very poor excuse to deny sex. Once you get started - even reluctantly - it's often very enjoyable. This is often true when hormones are a problem when you get older. You have to _remember _that you like sex and it's important to the relationship, and make an effort to either overcome that initial resistance, or respond to your spouse's overtures.


It's the "use it or lose it" principle. If you regularly keep on top of your exercise, you maintain looks, health, stamina and strength. Age will diminish these things over time, but keeping up with it even as you age allows you to stave off those ills that befall those that don't exercise. 

I'd say that sex is similar to exercise. I thought having regular sex is one of the best ways to maintain testosterone and help keep the prostate healthy. Plus in the end, the biggest sex organ is the brain, so it would stand to reason that so long as your parts still work, arousal will still be driven by the mind. My wife and I are in our early 40s, so we'll be seeing some potential challenges to our intimacy.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

To me, it seems like sexual abandonment and infidelity is equally caustic to a marriage, and the interesting thing is that the reasons the perpetrator of one or the other uses to justify his/her actions are very similar.

A pet peeve of mine regarding these types of arguments is for someone to say "well, instead of cheating/withholding/neglecting, he/she could have just divorced me if it was so bad". While that is technically correct, the reality of the situation is that in the vast majority of marriages, the financial entanglements result in a serious loss of income for both if the marriage is dissolved and when kids are involved both parents lose out on seeing the kids as much as they would by staying together. Why people CANNOT acknowledge these two reasons for why people find ways to cope instead of simply divorcing is beyond me. I get it that cheating and long term withholding of sex is morally wrong; however, people do not want to become paupers or part time parents. People will put up with a lot - even to the point of going outside the marriage, neglecting the marriage and avoiding the spouse at all costs - in order to cope with a bad marriage until the finances can be figured out and/or the kids are old enough. 

Communication is the KEY to all of this. You can dig to find the ultimate root causes for why cheating occurred and why the sexual spigot was turned off. Addressing the issues and both spouses putting in their absolute best in order to build a strong marriage is needed or it falls apart. After communication comes ACTION. If you are lazy, your marriage won't last. Constant effort is needed.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sex and death: are they related? Findings from... [BMJ. 1997 Dec 20-27] - PubMed - NCBI

Men, ages 45-59 with high orgasmic frequency had a 50% lower mortality rate than their low sex peers. Women who are withholders are killing their partners. I can get a vasectomy and avoid any unwanted pregnancy. I can wear a condom to help ward off STD. I can't bring myself back from the dead.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

They aren’t equal. They are both really damaging, but in different ways. I’ve experienced both.

In simple terms; Sexless or nearly sexless is somewhat easier on you. At least you are there, know its happening, have a voice, and can take actions. You remember it all and usually know the details, so you can reflect and form real opinions about the ‘why’ of it. It’s more like slowly being boiled alive. It is gradual, but at any time you might decide to hop out of that pot when it’s too much to handle. You remember when the water was refreshing, when it started getting warm, and when blisters started showing.

In adultery; None of that is possible. One minute, you believe you are in a monogamous relationship, and the next minute your world is shattered as is the perception of who your spouse is. No chance for ‘adjustment’… you just get your heart ripped out in seconds by someone you trusted and loved who vowed they wouldn’t do this to you. We remember the exact day we discovered as clearly as what day we were born.. 4/11/09 is etched in my head forever. Everything about the relationship and who they are changes in an instant. You aren’t blessed with the details to figure out what happened; You are reliant on the liar, your antagonist, for that information. It was all hidden from you. You were just going about your normal life, then they ripped a hole right through you that you probably weren’t expecting.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

http://www.asanet.org/images/journals/docs/pdf/smh/Nov11SMHFeature.pdf

Higher frequency of sex and intimacy correlate with lower incidences of depression. Not only are withholders shortening their partner's life, they are increasing the odds that that shortened life will be depressed and miserable.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ebp123 said:


> Both myself and soccermom provided our reasons in this thread, so your question has been answered twice by two different people could you be bothered to look.
> And I will also say that your ugly comparative, hyperbolic rhetoric is very telling. Rather than address the issues at hand, you blow your top. Given your profession, I suspect you have seen the results or the real crimes you stated were also evil. Why the evasion? Isn't that what accuse LD spouses of?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Withholding is literally mentally castrating the man. The mental becomes the reality and it may even cause ED and shrunken flaccids.

The thing that kills a man knowing he's providing for and loving his household and being withholded from is there are a bunch of unsavory characters and men who treat women poorly and abuse them, and even they get sex but he does not.

I mean, what a huge inflation to the self esteem and ego...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Withholding intimacy (sexual or emotional) in a marriage/relationship is WRONG


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's the "use it or lose it" principle. If you regularly keep on top of your exercise, you maintain looks, health, stamina and strength. Age will diminish these things over time, but keeping up with it even as you age allows you to stave off those ills that befall those that don't exercise.
> 
> I'd say that sex is similar to exercise. I thought having regular sex is one of the best ways to maintain testosterone and help keep the prostate healthy. Plus in the end, the biggest sex organ is the brain, so it would stand to reason that so long as your parts still work, arousal will still be driven by the mind. My wife and I are in our early 40s, so we'll be seeing some potential challenges to our intimacy.


Regular sex also keeps you feeling, looking and being younger. It's GOOD for you, unless you tie some tramatic past incidents to sex.

It's good for your MIND.

It's good for your body.

It's good for your energy.

Sex is even a descent workout. It's not llike a jog, but not much less calories burned per hour versus a good walking pace. I'll take that over laying on a couch.

The best excersize that rewards you DURING the activity!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Withholding intimacy (sexual or emotional) in a marriage/relationship is WRONG


yes yes yes

BUT WHERE DOES IT RANK?!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> yes yes yes
> 
> BUT WHERE DOES IT RANK?!


Somewhere between bludgeoning baby seals and infanticide.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vivid said:


> What if, for whatever reason, one of you doesn't WANT to have sex for a period longer than two weeks. What then? Do it anyway?


What if, for whatever reason, one decided not to verbally communicate with their spouse? Provide any of their core needs? Erase any major component of the marriage that hitherto both parties deemed essential for the health of it?

If one of us doesn't want to have sex for a lengthier period, then we will discuss the reasons, as that would be very out of character for both of us. We've been together for a long time, I'm very introspective and intuitive, my wife is very open and willing to explore, we eventually get to the roots and deal with them. This would be no different.

This is life. We might very well run into a period where issues arise, where that post-two week challenge arises. That's fine. What would not be fine is a chronic refusal to try and heal the issues and improve the problem.

If one of us started saying "meh, I'm not into it that much anymore", and didn't want to work to correct the issue, it would become willful, sexual abandonment. And that will not do. Neither of us married each other to have glorified roommates. 

Hopefully if a long term slowdown occurs it's far down the line and it happens mutually. So far our drives are pretty evenly matched. Sometimes I want it more, sometimes she does, but it all evens out.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I wouldn't think two weeks would be a problem. Two months, two years, or twenty years is a problem.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

treyvion said:


> Withholding is literally mentally castrating the man. The mental becomes the reality and it may even cause ED and shrunken flaccids.
> 
> The thing that kills a man knowing he's providing for and loving his household and being withholded from is there are a bunch of unsavory characters and men who treat women poorly and abuse them, and even they get sex but he does not.
> 
> I mean, what a huge inflation to the self esteem and ego...


As I've said a few times now, I don't withhold. He doesn't initiate and neither do I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> ...A pet peeve of mine regarding these types of arguments is for someone to say "well, instead of cheating/withholding/neglecting, he/she could have just divorced me if it was so bad". While that is technically correct, the reality of the situation is that in the vast majority of marriages, the financial entanglements result in a serious loss of income for both if the marriage is dissolved and when kids are involved both parents lose out on seeing the kids as much as they would by staying together. Why people CANNOT acknowledge these two reasons for why people find ways to cope instead of simply divorcing is beyond me...


Yes those are all factors, but the problem is when all this is decided upon by one spouse unilaterally. Yes, divorce is complicated, but at least in an unfulfilling relationship you can try things, discuss things etc. Yes, like you say communication is key, but if the way to cope with this is cheating, and ultimately ends up in divorce anyway, why pile it on? And if there is no infidelity, and if nothing was arrived at by unilateral pontification, atleast you have a qualified reason for mutually terminating the marriage - irreconcilable differences.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

ebp123 said:


> As I've said a few times now, I don't withhold. He doesn't initiate and neither do I.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


mutual sexual abandonment.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Not wanting sex is often a very poor excuse to deny sex. Once you get started - even reluctantly - it's often very enjoyable. This is often true when hormones are a problem when you get older. You have to _remember _that you like sex and it's important to the relationship, and make an effort to either overcome that initial resistance, or respond to your spouse's overtures.


This is why the treatment of sex as though it were some kind of chore one had to "get through" amazes me.

I think a spirit of openness in a healthy marriage is key. Knowing that the _possibility of sex always exists_ is more important, IMO, than whether one specifically craves sex at any given moment.

I'm sometimes in the mood when my wife isn't.
My wife is sometimes in the mood when I'm not.

We both are free to say "not right now" and we both exercise that right. However there are plenty of times when one of us initiates and the other is open, even if not necessarily all that "in the mood" before hand. 

But guess what? We almost always get in the mood. Because sex is enjoyable. Even if I decide to get my wife off and don't myself, rare as that was, I have never regretted helping my wife have a great time and vice versa.

At worst, if one of us isn't all that involved we can always stop and pick up later. Nothing lost at all.

Sex becomes this HUGE DEAL for people who withhold or struggle. As if the stars must align in the libidio for you to put out, or as if it were real work or some kind of thankfulness duty. It's not work. There is so much to be done sexually even if you don't feel like having some long, involved, passionate PIV session. That's the beauty of BJs, HJs, fingering, cunnilingus, mutual masturbation, masturbating just for the other person, breast play, sensual massage, hell just making out and dry humping. There is lots of fun and pleasure to be had without mounting a production. Of course if that's how you see sex, sometimes it will look like a long, drawn out chore. It's quite possible to be too tired to fling each other across the room for 30 minutes, but some unreciprocated oral sex or a 5-10 minute HJ is too much? Really??

I think not. The more time I spent here the more I begin to see that a potential core problem is how the spouses view what "sex" is. A change in perspective can go a long way if you can unburden the word "sex" from certain connotations and make it a much lighter, breezier, and even potentially briefer affair.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> :iagree:
> In my case, there were a couple of issues but the main one was the only time I received any affection was at 2am, when he finally decided to get off the computer and come to bed and he wanted to have sex. He was gone or leaving to go to the gym when I got home from work. He would come home 2-3 hours later and then eat his dinner at 10pm (we never ate together) then get on the computer. Weekends were for golf. We didn't spend any time together. Maybe on Sundays we would sit on the couch together and he would have golf or football on the T.V. If we did go out I would have to make the plans. This was pretty much the first 5 years marriage before we had kids. I remember crying myself to sleep because I was lonely. I would talk to him and things would get better for a week or so then go back. I was working full time and taking care of the house and cooking all by myself. I felt like a roommate and housekeeper that was used for sex AND brought home a paycheck instead getting paid. He was spending more time interacting with workout and golf buddies than with his wife. It was like once we got married, he turned off all romance, courting and dating. (I always have a mental picture of him as a blackjack dealer when they are done with their shift and they kind of clap and show their hands to say they are done and out.)
> 
> Now tell me, does the above sound like a man that's attracting his wife?


The above sounds like emotional and physical neglect on his part.

Of course you wouldn't want to have sex in that situation.

And just as I'd advise someone who is sexually abandoned by their spouse, when they've done nothing to warrant such behavior, to end the marriage, I'd likewise ask why you put up with that crap for 5 years before you even had kids and stayed?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Lon said:


> Yes those are all factors, but the problem is when all this is decided upon by one spouse unilaterally. Yes, divorce is complicated, but at least in an unfulfilling relationship you can try things, discuss things etc. Yes, like you say communication is key, but if the way to cope with this is cheating, and ultimately ends up in divorce anyway, why pile it on? And if there is no infidelity, and if nothing was arrived at by unilateral pontification, atleast you have a qualified reason for mutually terminating the marriage - irreconcilable differences.


I can't find fault with your logic. Unfortunately, most people who choose to cheat are not using logic to make the decision. They are doing what they can to cope with what they believe is a bad situation. Now we know a certain percentage of the infidelity cases are due to people simply having any moral compass at all, and they are simply looking for different experiences with no thought about who they are hurting in the process. Also, there are those who have some mental issues that impairs their decision making to the point that cheating is wholly justified in their minds. But the majority of cases are due to one spouse being dissatisfied with the marriage for some reason. Caveat here though is - if they get caught. What if you don't get caught? There in lies the seduction to it. If you need to cope with a marriage where the H or W ridicules you, won't validate you, refuses almost all of your sexual advances, puts everyone ahead of you, etc. etc. - add in kids - add in finances, then it should not surprise anyone that infidelity can crop up in a marriage. Especially when the spouse with the problem thinks that he/she can get their validation from outside the marriage and no one knows about it, it can be quite a seductive alternative.

Sexlessness is also quite painful, and contrary to what others have voiced, can be a soul crushing demoralizing situation for the one being cut off. You can't hide sexlessness but you can hide an affair. That's the only part about this where the affair can be seen as more insidious. But at the end of the day, both are betrayals, both CAN lead to a termination of the marriage and BOTH can result in one or both spouses being traumatized by what happened.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I wouldn't think two weeks would be a problem. Two months, two years, or twenty years is a problem.


I imagine this depends on the couple.

Two weeks would be a problem for us. Outside of travel, severe injury/illness, birth, etc, two weeks of us being able to have sex but not would be an issue. We've cut it close before, and even though there were legit reasons, there still was an "is everything OK/we need to clarify this" conversation. 

Two months? That's a HELL NO for both of us. Two years, nevermind twenty? We wouldn't even last long enough to see that kind of drought. The pain of not being together, not feeling wanted and desired, would be too much for us to handle.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> ...If you need to cope with a marriage where the H or W ridicules you, won't validate you, refuses almost all of your sexual advances, puts everyone ahead of you, etc. etc. - add in kids - add in finances, then it should not surprise anyone that infidelity can crop up in a marriage...


Or, as I suspect is even more common, all it takes is one spouse to convince themselves of all of the above justifications, regardless of how much truth may or not be in their belief.



> Sexlessness is also quite painful, and contrary to what others have voiced, can be a soul crushing demoralizing situation for the one being cut off. You can't hide sexlessness but you can hide an affair. That's the only part about this where the affair can be seen as more insidious. But at the end of the day, both are betrayals, both CAN lead to a termination of the marriage and BOTH can result in one or both spouses being traumatized by what happened.


I know right?! Happened to me, though I'm not sure if I'm to assume the character of withholder in the enactment of my failed marriage. Like SHE was the only one that wanted sex? I thought it was "mutual sexual abandonment", and I thought we were trying to both get back in it together, mutually (at least that's one goal I thought was kind of addressed in MC).

I don't know how traumatized my ex was at all about any of this, it certainly caused her a lot of stress when she was carrying out her multiple exit affairs though.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There are valid reasons to withhold sex.


This is the point where I wanted to go back and change my vote. Back in my first year here there was a list of 50 reasons why your wife isn't having sex with you. After a careful analysis of the list I narrowed it down to "because your wife has made a career of grudge holding"

So when withholding is done as a method to manipulate or "train" ones spouse, it's evil. When withholding is done to punish a person it is evil. Withholding in this sense is selling sex for a payment of other favors. 

So which is worse?
MN


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I'll say it again. I know of no woman who purposefully withholds. When the reasons aren't addressed, then there's no sex. If my H spent 30 min every few days connecting with me emotionally, trying new things, being involved and connected, he would have me initiating. But he withholds emotionally and, when asked, says he doesn't know if he can ever be different.

So... Do I give only to get nothing in return?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

<<gagged>> mmmph mmph mmmph


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> This is the point where I wanted to go back and change my vote. Back in my first year here there was a list of 50 reasons why your wife isn't having sex with you. After a careful analysis of the list I narrowed it down to "because your wife has made a career of grudge holding"
> 
> So when withholding is done as a method to manipulate or "train" ones spouse, it's evil. When withholding is done to punish a person it is evil. Withholding in this sense is selling sex for a payment of other favors.
> 
> ...



Or you simply can not have sex with someone who disrespects you and doesn't meet your needs in or out of bed.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Or you simply can not have sex with someone who disrespects you and doesn't meet your needs in or out of bed.


You could do one better and divorce him, leaving him free to find a woman who will actually be what she promised and leaving you free to find a man you mighty actually respect.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Amongst many reasons, you know why my wife wouldn't withhold sex?

BECAUSE SHE LOVES SEX WITH ME!

Revolutionary idea, I know. But if my wife stopped having sex until everything was perfect, all the stars were aligned, and I put in the right key code combination, she'd be shooting herself in the face. Why? Because if she was to withhold from me she'd be robbing herself of one of her life's great pleasures. This is what stands out to me for all those withholding. Don't they, from a purely selfish place, ever feel like they're causing THEMSELVES grief?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Mr. Nail said:


> <<gagged>> mmmph mmph mmmph


If the men in this forum listen and respond to their LD wives the way they do to the women on TAM, it's no wonder they aren't getting any! This far I've been "gagged" to shut off my words, called evil, and compared to child molesters and murderers. 

So... How's that working for you? You get what you give.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> You could do one better and divorce him, leaving him free to find a woman who will actually be what she promised and leaving you free to find a man you mighty actually respect.


Well that is the eventual plan but then if he cared even a little about sex as an emotional connection and mutually fulfilling act, he knows exactly what he could fix and we'd be going at it like bunnies within the week. Apparently he's more stubborn than sex deprived. I'm hurting more than he is.

Not all sexless/withholding stories follow the same plot.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

ebp123 said:


> If the men in this forum listen and respond to their LD wives the way they do to the women on TAM, it's no wonder they aren't getting any!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm shocked you're in a sexless marriage. Floored I tell you.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

jaquen said:


> I'm shocked you're in a sexless marriage. Floored I tell you.


Like I said, I've been called evil, compared to murderers and child molesters. Where on this thread have I done anything like that. I actual shared twice my reasons and only one man had the guts to address my posts. You reap what you sew.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

If you want it so much, why are you so afraid to address the issue? Why he name calling and bad treatment? Seems I am your perfect test subject? But you don't ask, you attack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening epb123
I think this is the core of the issue. The idea that sex is something you "give" to someone else. 



ebp123 said:


> (snip)
> 
> So... Do I give only to get nothing in return?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ebp123 said:


> As I've said a few times now, I don't withhold. He doesn't initiate and neither do I.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't initiate because you don't feel he really wants it? Maybe he wants you to initiate? So if you initiate he rejects you?

So thus you don't initiate and he will not initiate?


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Amongst many reasons, you know why my wife wouldn't withhold sex?
> 
> BECAUSE SHE LOVES SEX WITH ME!
> 
> Revolutionary idea, I know. But if my wife stopped having sex until everything was perfect, all the stars were aligned, and I put in the right key code combination, she'd be shooting herself in the face. Why? Because if she was to withhold from me she'd be robbing herself of one of her life's great pleasures. This is what stands out to me for all those withholding. Don't they, from a purely selfish place, ever feel like they're causing THEMSELVES grief?



And what if she didn't love sex with you? What if you didn't want to give her oral and it was the only reliable way she could orgasm? That's happened to two of my friends. Husbands used to go down, now they won't. Should they just carry on regardless? So as not to be evil withholders? One friend said either sort it out or we'll never have sex again. He did, they worked it out, and they have sex again. If she had just continued, he would have thought everything was fine. In her case, refusing to have sex for a while fixed things. 

I think that the cases of women (or men) just maliciously refusing to have sex for no reason are rare. I know that isn't the accepted wisdom here, but I've never heard of a real-life case where it happens. 

Obviously your wife isn't going to suddenly start withholding because she enjoys sex with you, unless I suppose she goes through some kind of big hormonal shift, which can certainly happen. But that means nothing to anyone else, sexless or otherwise. It doesn't help. 

In my marriage, if we're not in harmony, we don't have sex. Neither of us want to. I'm always amazed when I read on here about marriages in terrible states, and people are still initiating. No. That makes me feel sick. Maybe we're just more emotionally in tune with each other or something.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ebp123 said:


> Like I said, I've been called evil, compared to murderers and child molesters. Where on this thread have I done anything like that. I actual shared twice my reasons and only one man had the guts to address my posts. You reap what you sew.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Guess this means I'm not getting a Christmas card from you this year? This is a forum. People share opinions here. So, you don't agree with them. You have identified yourself as someone who does not withhold sex, so how is your story relevant? If you aren't a deliberate and serial withholder, my comments have not been directed at you.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

treyvion said:


> You don't initiate because you don't feel he really wants it? Maybe he wants you to initiate? So if you initiate he rejects you?
> 
> So thus you don't initiate and he will not initiate?


He doesn't initiate because he thinks I will say no. That is what he says. I think he doesn't initiate because I have stated my needs outright and he knows he can't meet them. I want a more positive person. I want a man who greets me with a smile, not a mumbled "hey." I want a man who I connect with emotionally.

I can share a funny story about our kid and he doesn't respond at all. It's as if I didn't say anything. He lives in his head where he focuses on the next task and the next. He has said he trusts no one and he doesn't want to open up. He is guarded and an emotional island.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> Guess this means I'm not getting a Christmas card from you this year? This is a forum. People share opinions here. So, you don't agree with them. You have identified yourself as someone who does not withhold sex, so how is your story relevant? If you aren't a deliberate and serial withholder, my comments have not been directed at you.


Then find a deliberate withholder to debate with. Who does it to manipulate. I think you will find very few of them. You want to believe there are these evil, manipulative women out there. If you are truly married to one, get out!! No one should manipulate their spouse. I hate game playing! It's ugly and immature. Now, if your spouse has given you their reasons, out them out here so someone might be able to help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ebp123 said:


> Then find a deliberate withholder to debate with. Who does it to manipulate. I think you will find very few of them. You want to believe there are these evil, manipulative women out there. If you are truly married to one, get out!! No one should manipulate their spouse. I hate game playing! It's ugly and immature. Now, if your spouse has given you their reasons, out them out here so someone might be able to help you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you toss your baited hook into the pond of opinion, you don't get to dictate who bites or how. Not everything is about you. Not every response is a personal attack against you. You are certainly authorized to feel offended or pissed off, but this is a public forum and you're going to hear a variety of opinions.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ahh but there is the difference isn't it. My LD wife refuses to use sex to manipulate me. Either by withholding or by providing. I understand not having sex with someone you don't love. I don't understand living with that person. I also refuse to have sex with a person that I don't have a long term loving committed and especially trusting relationship with. I do understand that men (and women I suppose) do things that break the trust in a relationship. I accept that that is a valid reason to withhold sex for a short time until the issue can be resolved. That time should be measured in hours or days, not weeks or years.
MN


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> When you toss your baited hook into the pond of opinion, you don't get to dictate who bites or how. Not everything is about you. Not every response is a personal attack against you. You are certainly authorized to feel offended or pissed off, but this is a public forum and you're going to hear a variety of opinions.


Not pissed. Just the opposite. I've been called all kinds of things and I'm still here, waiting for someone to be brave enough to share what is really going on instead of just complain. I won't take your bait. I'm here as the person you really need to communicate with and with whom you can practice, should you dare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

ebp123 said:


> Like I said, I've been called evil, compared to murderers and child molesters. Where on this thread have I done anything like that. I actual shared twice my reasons and only one man had the guts to address my posts. You reap what you sew.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nobody compared you personally to a murderer or a child molester. You took one posters' generalities and acted like they spoke specifically to your situation.

You haven't had sex with your husband in half a decade. You say it's because of UTIs, trouble climaxing, a feeling that he only uses you as a hole, and overall displeasure with how negative and cold he seems.

It sounds like your husband abandoned you emotionally. You are in what looks like a horrible marriage. Of course you don't want to have sex and at this point he sounds like he doesn't want it from you either. You're not in the kind of situation that people are railing against; you and your husband have mutually abandoned each, him first, you followed, and you're at a standstill. You're in an agreed upon, sexless state.

Your situation doesn't resemble anything anyone here is even talking about, yet you persist on applying these people's comments to your situation. Not applicable. At all.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
this is clearly a sensitive subject for a lot of people, I hope everyone can keep the discussion polite because I think it is a very important topic .:biggrinangelA:

People bring their own experience into this and project that onto others. 

Some people turn their partners down for sex for very good reasons - their partners are behaving badly in some way.

Other people turn their partners down despite those partners being wonderful, loving people. 


Being constantly turned down, and being cheated on are both very hurtful. Few people have experienced both because someone who is LD, and not interested in sex is unlikely to cheat - they don't want sex in the first place (for whatever reason). There really is not way to compare the two. I think both are completely unacceptable. 

Most of the people here who object so strongly to having sex denied have been in relationships where they were being denied for NO REASON - or by a controlling, possibly evil partner. They don't want their partners to "give them sex", they what their partners to enjoy sex WITH them.

No one should withhold sex from a good loving partner, or use it as a bribe, threat or punishment. Sex should always be mutual. If your partner is willing to try to meet your needs and you still don't enjoy sex, then I think therapy is a good idea.

No one should ever cheat on a good loving partner. 

If you have a bad partner.... well then there's your problem right there. Just leave. Withholding sex or cheating won't make the situation any better so why bother. 

Always be sure that *you* are not the bad partner.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vivid said:


> And what if she didn't love sex with you?


Why would I stay married to somebody who didn't love having sex with me? 



Vivid said:


> What if you didn't want to give her oral and it was the only reliable way she could orgasm?


An impossible "what if" since I love pleasing my wife and do the things that make her orgasm. Again, why wouldn't I?




Vivid said:


> I think that the cases of women (or men) just maliciously refusing to have sex for no reason are rare. I know that isn't the accepted wisdom here, but I've never heard of a real-life case where it happens.


Malicious? No, most people in sexless marriages don't think of one or both parties as being purposefully "malicious".

But you're really telling me that the 40 or million sexless couples in the US alone all have deep, abiding issues? Not that people don't really take sexual withholding collectively all that seriously, therefore there is no real stigma against stopping or severely slowing down sex in marriage?

I actually think the biggest obstacle to withholding is the fact that, as a society, we just don't talk about it that much and don't see it as "all that bad".

After all isn't slow down in marriage normal and expected? That's a common assumption.



Vivid said:


> In my marriage, if we're not in harmony, we don't have sex.


And in my marriage sex is one of the things that help keep us in harmony.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> If you aren't a deliberate and serial withholder, my comments have not been directed at you.


So let's say a man goes to work everyday, comes home and cooks dinner on his own, looks after his kids and cleans the house while his wife watches TV. She doesn't talk to him, hang out with him, or help him in anyway. Then she wants him to have sex to get HER off but leaves him hanging without finishing himself, is he evil if he deliberately decides he will not have sex with her any more until/unless she steps up and takes care of his needs too?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

ebp123 said:


> Then find a deliberate withholder to debate with. Who does it to manipulate. I think you will find very few of them. You want to believe there are these evil, manipulative women out there. If you are truly married to one, get out!! No one should manipulate their spouse. I hate game playing! It's ugly and immature. Now, if your spouse has given you their reasons, out them out here so someone might be able to help you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you not see the irony in you telling somebody else to "get out" of a bad marriage?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

jaquen said:


> Nobody compared you personally to a murderer or a child molester. You took one posters' generalities and acted like they spoke specifically to your situation.
> 
> You haven't had sex with your husband in half a decade. You say it's because of UTIs, trouble climaxing, a feeling that he only uses you as a hole, and overall displeasure with how negative and cold he seems.
> 
> ...


Ok. I will bow out. I hope you all find the answers you are looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

jaquen said:


> Do you not see the irony in you telling somebody else to "get out" of a bad marriage?


I am getting out. I just have to stay for a year to pay off the debt from my husband's surgery. I am an honorable person. That is all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Why would I stay married to somebody who didn't love having sex with me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where does the 40 million figure come from? I haven't heard that before.

Yes I'd say a sexual slowdown is to be expected in a long-term relationship. In my relationship it's gone from daily/multiple times a day in our childless 20s to 4/5 times a week in our parental 40s. Seems normal to me. Most 50 year olds don't have the same libido they did at 20, so again, slowdown is normal and to be expected.

I don't believe there are millions of people who withhold sex for months or years for no reason. I've never seen anything to suggest that this is the case, even on TAM. I've seen lots of threads from people not getting the amount of sex they'd like, or with the level of enthusiasm they'd like, or with the variety they'd like, but that's not withholding. 

I would say that true withholding - refusal to have sex for months or years without addressing issues or working to fix them on both sides is as bad as cheating. I also think it's rare, certainly rarer than cheating.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



Vivid said:


> Where does the 40 million figure come from? I haven't heard that before.
> 
> I don't believe there are millions of people who withhold sex for months or years for no reason.
> 
> I would say that true withholding - refusal to have sex for months or years without addressing issues or working to fix them on both sides is as bad as cheating. I also think it's rare, certainly rarer than cheating.


http://www.elle.com/_mobile/beauty/health-fitness/sexless-relationships-3

http://drphil.com/articles/article/372


http://thenewidobook.com/2014/07/13/is-none-ogamy-acceptable-in-marriage/

The gist of the last one is pretty much my perspective. It just seems like people focus on infidelity as being the pinnacle of breaking the marriage covenant. 

And my point is there are many ways that can betray your marriage that net out to the same result as having an affair.

In the case of ebp and Slowly, based on their input I'd argue that sexlessness isn't even the root of the problem ... it's the outcome of other problems. But they also self identify as LD, perhaps that's why the critique feels personal.

I don't like the notion of justifying reasons for why it is acceptable to withhold.

And for the record, particularly in the case of the first link I posted, I'm not talking about people not having sex in an emotionally vacant or toxic marriage, I'm talking about what generally 'appears' to be a good, or normal marriage. Yet in that marriage, more often than not, whenever one partner attempts to initiate intimacy, the other shoots them down.

I think we are on very dangerous ground if we are to just presume there must always be a good reason the requestor is shot down.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So let's say a man goes to work everyday, comes home and cooks dinner on his own, looks after his kids and cleans the house while his wife watches TV. She doesn't talk to him, hang out with him, or help him in anyway. Then she wants him to have sex to get HER off but leaves him hanging without finishing himself, is he evil if he deliberately decides he will not have sex with her any more until/unless she steps up and takes care of his needs too?


Withholding isn't an honorable response. Fix the problem, accept the problem, or get out. None of us took vows with qualifiers such as "if I feel like it", or "as long as he/she behaves as I expect or wish". My wife doesn't work and her depression keeps her from doing most of the cooking, cleaning, household chores (and sex). I work two jobs and take care of most everything else. Still, she's my wife and if she has a reasonable need and it's within my ability to meet it, I'll do my best. It's not something she has to earn. It's what I promised to do. When I am no longer willing to do as I promised, I'll get out. I don't feed my kids only on the days they behave well or bring home great grades. I feed my dog even it she has an accident on the carpet. My wife has no other husband. If she were to turn to me for sex or affection, I couldn't have the ability but repeatedly refuse her and still consider myself a husband. If I did refuse her repeatedly, I couldn't very well complain if she sought solace elsewhere. 
In your example above, the behaviors of the wife you describe sound very much like depression which is an illness. Would an honorable man divorce or otherwise punish his wife for having an ailment beyond her control?


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

I don't think either infidelity or sexual withholding is the worst thing you can do in a marriage. I wouldn't necessarily leave my husband for either of those. 

I'd leave my husband for hitting me or our children, or otherwise abusing them. 

I spent some of yesterday reading news reports about a father who murdered his three children and his wife before killing himself. It makes having sex with someone else seem pretty minor. 

There are plenty of reasons not to have sex with a spouse. I just don't think that's the same as wilful withholding.

ETA I read through those links, well the second and third, the first wouldn't load.



> While we are certainly not promoting affairs as a way to deal with sexlessness in a marriage, we wonder about the many other ways spouses betray each other beyond just affairs or denying the other sex. Spouses can treat each other horribly, and yet we only get in a tizzy when one or the other cheats. Why is sexual fidelity considered the No. 1 marker of a good relationship?


. 

I don't think it's true that "we" only care when someone cheats. Who is this "we" anyway? And there's some pretty obvious justification for cheating going on in that article, so why is it not okay to justify not having sex? 



> Being “neglectful, indifferent, contemptuous, asexual, demeaning, insulting” is not loving behavior and is often as — and sometimes more — damaging as physical abuse (and there are some who argue that infidelity is abuse). And yet, there is no great societal outcry over ending those sorts of behaviors, just societal shaming and blaming of often-long-suffering spouses who cheat.


. 

Long-suffering? More damaging than physical abuse? I'd like to see some evidence for those sweeping, emotive statements 

And of the 20% of marriages that are technically sexless, how many of those are due to illness, mental or physical, or age?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Deejo said:


> In the case of ebp and Slowly, based on their input I'd argue that sexlessness isn't even the root of the problem ... it's the outcome of other problems. But they also self identify as LD, perhaps that's why the critique feels personal.
> 
> I don't like the notion of justifying reasons for why it is acceptable to withhold.
> 
> I think we are on very dangerous ground if we are to just presume there must always be a good reason the requestor is shot down.


So do you view that as a case-by-case thing?

All I know is that while my husband and I still had intimacy, our sex life became a problem - mostly for me - or so it felt at the time. And it _was_ indeed the outcome of other problems. I can't say there is always a good reason to being shot down. I would suggest it can be unspoken communication, even subconsciously, and I think that needs to be dealt with. Am I making any sense? I committed bad forum etiquette again as I didn't read the links before posting and need caffeine. 

I find it hard to keep my expression of such things short as it feels there was a combination of things that got us to that point. Much of which I haven't shared here but what I do know is that for us, not meeting my husband's emotional needs outside the bedroom certainly affected our sex life. Maybe our strained sex life affected my desire to meet his emotional needs. Who knows. It doesn't matter. It's one and the same. What does matter is the resolve and awareness gained. 

We're now very clear with each other that neither of us are willing to stay in a marriage that's void of sex beyond a certain length of time. The connection, the intimacy, is important to both of us, just as meeting each others' emotional needs outside of the bedroom. And we're both responsible for that - in communicating what those needs are along with expressing when we're upset, sharing that trust and vulnerability, walls down. Expressing our expectation, understanding, and the behavior and actions that follow. Sounds pretty damn obvious stuff, doesn't it? 

I foolishly didn't realize that these things could be worked on or even what that meant. I had one foot out the door. It was my husband who encouraged and inspired this journey. He said he needed to understand it for himself. He knew that he still loved me, that he found me sexy but that's where it stopped. He had his T-levels checked that were on the lower side of normal. And then... the unraveling began. The emotional side, the unmet needs, the poor communication. And my unraveling began too. What a frickn eye-opener.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Vivid
There are many valid reasons for not wanting to have sex with your partner - your partner being an inconsiderate lover is certainly good reason.

But - what many people here (including myself) have experienced is a partner who would't have sex despite our doing everything we could think of in and out of bed.

I expect that you can't imagine not wanting sex with someone who love you, and who was a considerate and giving lover - but there are people out there like that. For some of us that is what we are taking about when we describe "withholding sex"

I honestly couldn't and can't think of anything I could have done to make my wife appreciate me more. Now that things are patched up she is very happy with me (and me with her), and is unable to say why she was so unhappy and so uninterested for so long. 



Vivid said:


> And what if she didn't love sex with you? What if you didn't want to give her oral and it was the only reliable way she could orgasm? That's happened to two of my friends. Husbands used to go down, now they won't. Should they just carry on regardless? So as not to be evil withholders? One friend said either sort it out or we'll never have sex again. He did, they worked it out, and they have sex again. If she had just continued, he would have thought everything was fine. In her case, refusing to have sex for a while fixed things.
> 
> I think that the cases of women (or men) just maliciously refusing to have sex for no reason are rare. I know that isn't the accepted wisdom here, but I've never heard of a real-life case where it happens.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening ebp123
you will find an active discussion on this in the sex thread. At least one person it appears simply can't be bothered to have sex with their partner.

Most LD people don't even show up to groups like this because they don't think sex matters.

I lived with someone like that for 25 years, I can give more details if you like. 



ebp123 said:


> Then find a deliberate withholder to debate with. Who does it to manipulate. I think you will find very few of them. You want to believe there are these evil, manipulative women out there. If you are truly married to one, get out!! No one should manipulate their spouse. I hate game playing! It's ugly and immature. Now, if your spouse has given you their reasons, out them out here so someone might be able to help you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Would having less than an equally contributing partner (financially, or chore-wise) or having a less than expert sexual partner relieve someone of their vows of monogamy? If not, those are also inadequate reasons to withhold sex. If "I just don't feel like it" is good enough reason to withhold, then "I just feel like it" is good enough reason to cheat.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

heartsbeating said:


> So do you view that as a case-by-case thing?
> 
> All I know is that while my husband and I still had intimacy, our sex life became a problem - mostly for me - or so it felt at the time. And it _was_ indeed the outcome of other problems. I can't say there is always a good reason to being shot down. I would suggest it can be unspoken communication, even subconsciously, and I think that needs to be dealt with. Am I making any sense? I committed bad forum etiquette again as I didn't read the links before posting and need caffeine.
> 
> ...


Look at you ... posting without reading the links, the nerve.

I think anyone responding is always going to use the reference point that matters most, their own.

I've done the postmortem on my marriage. I believe my ex-wife has as well.
Were we armed then with what we know now, it is entirely possible that we may have made the journey you and your husband did. But you mentioned the magic word in our particular case; 'walls'.

She couldn't take them down. She didn't know when to stop building them. She had plenty of good reasons that she had grown up with all of her life, for keeping them up.

If she couldn't define her own needs, she couldn't possibly understand or meet mine. And I tried for a very long time to decrypt hers, and meet them. 

The tipping point, was when I said, "We need to go back to counseling."
She literally rolled her eyes, and replied, "Why, because we don't have enough sex?" That should be a pretty good indication that she knew what the issue was, and I had attempted to discuss or resolve it for a very long time.

And I said, "No, so I can decide if I want to stay married to you."

And her jaw hit the floor. Blindsided, didn't see it coming. Didn't think it was possible. Years later, she told me that was the moment she felt abandoned and threw in the towel. At that time, she couldn't see it as a call to save her marriage. She saw it as me doing something to her ... rejecting her, and she shut herself behind a wall instead of fighting for her marriage.

I've said it many times since, this is now why in terms of partnering, I look for a fighter, not a runner. Preferably a fighter who also bites and scratches under the sheets.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

What made the difference to your wife Richardsharpe? Sorry, have you already said? I might have missed it.

I actually do believe that if you're in a monogamous relationship, sex is a obligation, provided other needs are met to a reasonable degree.

And I would class having/being a willing-to-please, willing-to-learn-what-works-for-your-spouse sex partner as a requirement for that obligation to be met.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Vivid said:


> I don't think either infidelity or sexual withholding is the worst thing you can do in a marriage. I wouldn't necessarily leave my husband for either of those.
> 
> I'd leave my husband for hitting me or our children, or otherwise abusing them.
> 
> ...


I think there are plenty of reasons to cheat on your spouse.


Leaves a bad taste in the mouth, doesn't it?


As others have indicated, there are indeed 'reasons' valid or manufactured why people make either choice. Neither choice is EVER a good choice.

And the resolutions is the same.

Address, deal with and resolve the issues behind the reasons ... or leave the relationship.

If only more people made THAT choice.

Don't know where you are going with your other comments. Wandering more than a bit off the range in terms of the discussion we're having.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

How are any of my comments off the discussion? I'm asking genuinely here, I was responding to the idea that "we" as a society view cheating to be the worst thing you can do in a relationship.

I don't think it is, and I provided a few things I think are worse. I think probably certain forms of sexual abandonment are as bad as cheating, I haven't said otherwise. 

What I do doubt is that it's especially common. I think even if 20% of couples are sexless purely because of wilful withholding, which is unlikely, there are still more people who cheat. I think that's right? I have a vague memory of it being something like 30%. Happy to be corrected though. 

I also think that there are good reasons for, if not cheating, certainly outsourcing the sexual side of the marriage. Chronic withholding would be one of those reasons. So no, "there are plenty of good reasons to cheat" doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth particularly.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Deejo said:


> In the case of ebp and Slowly, based on their input I'd argue that sexlessness isn't even the root of the problem ... it's the outcome of other problems. But they also self identify as LD, perhaps that's why the critique feels personal.


FTR- My drive is normal. 3-7 times a week would be ideal for me. But having sex with him does not meet my need for sexual fulfillment, it just makes me more frustrated. If it met my needs, I would still be able to do it even with him lacking in the chore/helping around the house areas. 

I gave him daily bj's throughout my pregnancy/after birth for a year to continue to meet his needs when he told me he couldn't have sex with me pregnant. After that I continued to have one sided (him) sex for years until I demanded he consider my needs. He lost interest when it became a "hassle" of needing to focus on me for 30 minutes instead of me jumping on and getting him off. Also, being with someone who is only doing things for you because you made him feels like crap. 
So we went on and off for a while until I said no more. If I say no, I don't have to keep waiting and wondering if it will be better and being disappointed. So yes, it's the outcome of the problem. 

Out of curiosity I asked him about this last night, if he knew why we weren't having sex. Keep in mind I've told him why every single time he asked, brought it up in friendly ways in day to day conversations for the past 6 months. His answer.... "I guess you just don't like sex anymore" :scratchhead:


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't know...cheating is worse but they both really suck.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vivid said:


> the point I was trying to make is that there are women (and men I suppose) who withhold sex as a last resort because of something their partner won't address. As in the case of my friend who's husband took oral off the table. She took sex altogether off the table until they worked through whatever his issue was. Nothing else would have got his attention.


A temporary break in sex in order to calibrate and get back on the same page is not chronic, willful withholding. That example has very little to do with what I, many others, are referring to.



Vivid said:


> I don't believe there are millions of people who withhold sex for months or years for no reason.



I think you and I likely just have radically different perceptions of what constitutes "reasonable".

In my marriage, and in my view of marriage, there are very, very few legitimate reasons to not have sex with your spouse.

People who feel comfortable withholding, or with the concept of withholding, can always come up with a near endless list of seemingly sound, legit reasons.

But guess what? So can cheaters.

There are millions of couples featuring one spouse who feels their reasons for being stingy with sexual output are sound. Does that mean they are? I don't know, you'd have to ask their spouses and check the state of their marriage.

My criteria? Is what you're doing, that seems reasonable, working? Is it improving your marriage, your attraction, and your connection? Is it ultimately bringing you closer? If not, what reasonable purpose is it serving?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vivid said:


> I spent some of yesterday reading news reports about a father who murdered his three children and his wife before killing himself. It makes having sex with someone else seem pretty minor.


Most things seem "pretty minor" in the face of familicide. 

Including going to work, paying your bills, feeding yourself, treating your fellow man with basic human decency and wiping your own ass.

In the name of honoring those slain children and wife, are you planning on neglecting those "pretty minor" parts of your day?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jaquen said:


> There are millions of couples featuring one spouse who feels their reasons for being stingy with sexual output are sound. Does that mean they are? I don't know, you'd have to ask their spouses and check the state of their marriage.
> 
> My criteria? Is what you're doing, that seems reasonable, working? Is it improving your marriage, your attraction, and your connection? Is it ultimately bringing you closer? _If not, what reasonable purpose is it serving_?


People have to have boundaries. If you don't respect yourself, you can't expect your spouse to. Staying strong with my boundaries about what kind of sex/sexual relationship I deserve and not settling for less protects me. My body, my feelings and my self respect.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> People have to have boundaries. If you don't respect yourself, you can't expect your spouse to. Staying strong with my boundaries about what kind of sex/sexual relationship I deserve and not settling for less protects me. My body, my feelings and my self respect.



"My" boundaries.
"My" body.
"My" feelings.
"My" self respect.

The questions is, does this concentration on "my" lead to a sound, strong marriage? Because if one or both spouses' main concentration is working to protect "my" above the "we", what's even the point of being married in today's society?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jaquen said:


> "My" boundaries.
> "My" body.
> "My" feelings.
> "My" self respect.
> ...


Because it is MY body that is in pain, sometimes for days, when someone has sex with me without my being tuned on or ready. 
Because it's MY feelings that get hurt when a man who is supposed to love me doesn't care about my sexual needs as long as he gets his.
Because it's MY self-respect that was going in the toilet from allowing myself to be used and feeling disgusting and ugly and unwanted. 

I am still a person, I'm not a robot designed to give pleasure, cook food and clean up. There is still a ME in this relationship and if he can't respect ME then I have to myself.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vivid said:


> What I do doubt is that it's especially common. I think even if 20% of couples are sexless purely because of wilful withholding, which is unlikely, there are still more people who cheat. I think that's right?


The estimated 40 million sexless couples in the US are being defined by a "less than 10 times a year" criteria. 

The number doesn't even begin to include those who are having sex just slightly above that number, just barely escaping the sexless label.

It also doesn't include people in sexually dull, bad, and unsatisfying marriages.

Millions on top of millions of people are having no sex, barely having sex, or are having unsatisfying sex.

So common is this state that the general consensus is that marriage, of course, equals a bad sex life. It's a common, running joke.

Ask the typical person if it's alright that they divorced their spouse because of infidelity. Most would be on their side.

Ask the typical person if it was alright that they divorced their spouse for a bad or non-existent sex life. I guarantee you the results would be radically different, alongside more than a few "but that's just marriage".


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Because it is MY body that is in pain, sometimes for days, when someone has sex with me without my being tuned on or ready.
> Because it's MY feelings that get hurt when a man who is supposed to love me doesn't care about my sexual needs as long as he gets his.
> Because it's MY self-respect that was going in the toilet from allowing myself to be used and feeling disgusting and ugly and unwanted.
> 
> I am still a person, I'm not a robot designed to give pleasure, cook food and clean up. There is still a ME in this relationship and if he can't respect ME then I have to myself.


So why would you stay married to such a person? If he's abandoning your needs, you're abandoning his, and the "My" has overtaken the "We" for you both, what do you even call your relationship? Do you still even qualify that as "married"?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

jaquen said:


> "My" boundaries.
> "My" body.
> "My" feelings.
> "My" self respect.
> ...


When a person marries or becomes a parent their body is no longer their own. A decent father uses his body in labor to support his kids or uses his body to defend his wife and kids. If I permit a woman to stand beside me and take a vow to only have sex with me for the rest of our lives, that vow compels me to take care of her reasonable sexual needs. Otherwise, it's a vow of chastity. So, her vow to be faithful to only me puts an obligation on me that my body (and only my body) is to be used for her sexual fulfillment. My vow to remain married in sickness, health, through good or bad, means I am obligating my body to care for her and/or to support her. Mothers actually produce food in their bodies for their babies. Obviously, babies depend on the bodies of their parents to feed them, transport them, dress them, clean them, etc. If anyone doesn't want any infringements upon their body they need to stay single. My body has been used primarily to care for and support other people since I was 20. There is no law requiring someone to get married or make kids. Those are both voluntary acts and both require daily sacrifice.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon Vivid
I really don't know why. What happened is that after about 25 years of a sex life that decreased from minimal to essentially zero, I confronted her one more time. (I had talked to her many times in the past and always gotten an "I'll try, but I'm tired" response, followed by sex once, then nothing).

I don't think I said anything particularly different but maybe this time she sensed that I was planning to end with "I love you, but I can't live like this, I want a divorce". (I never got to that). 

She apologized, and we started having sex at a fairly normal rate. The interesting thing is that she enjoyed it too - and everything else improved. She now initiates as much as I do. We can sit cuddling on the sofa watching TV without her feeling that I'm molesting her, or my feeling constantly rejected. We really are both very happy. 

But...25 years? This is why I try so hard to convince other people how important this is. We basically lost half of our lives together in a unhappy mess or resentment and rejection. 





Vivid said:


> What made the difference to your wife Richardsharpe? Sorry, have you already said? I might have missed it.
> 
> I actually do believe that if you're in a monogamous relationship, sex is a obligation, provided other needs are met to a reasonable degree.
> 
> And I would class having/being a willing-to-please, willing-to-learn-what-works-for-your-spouse sex partner as a requirement for that obligation to be met.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jaquen said:


> So why would you stay married to such a person? If he's abandoning your needs, you're abandoning his, and the "My" has overtaken the "We" for you both, what do you even call your relationship? Do you still even qualify that as "married"?


Of course I think it's over. He doesn't. 

In fact, if he wrote a TAM thread he would say:
We are ok except for a few issues that can be worked on. 
He works full time, makes good money and works hard. 
Does what he can around the house but a lot of times when he tries I b*tch about how he does it.
He loves his kids and spends time with them and us as a family. 
He tells me I'm beautiful and how much he loves me and what a good Mother/person I am.
He is good looking, in shape and gets hit on all the time.
I tell him I want sex but always find some reason to turn him down when he asks. It's been over 6 months now. 
We used to do it all the time and tried many new things until sometime after the kids came and it slowed down to an eventual stop. 

For whatever reason, that is his truth. That's how he feels (based on our conversation last night). He'd be another statistic of how some horrible woman isn't doing her duty when he does so much for her. 

I'm just getting my side out too. 


and unbelievable- pain is not part of the vows. No one has the right to hurt you physically to get their needs met. It's not the same as a Mother who provides their body for a child. A child has no other options, a man does. There's a reason why it's still against the law to rape your wife.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> FTR- My drive is normal. 3-7 times a week would be ideal for me. *But having sex with him does not meet my need for sexual fulfillment*, it just makes me more frustrated. If it met my needs, I would still be able to do it even with him lacking in the chore/helping around the house areas.
> 
> I gave him daily bj's throughout my pregnancy/after birth for a year to continue to meet his needs when he told me he couldn't have sex with me pregnant. After that I continued to have one sided (him) sex for years until I demanded he consider my needs. *He lost interest when it became a "hassle" of needing to focus on me for 30 minutes instead of me jumping on and getting him off. *Also, being with someone who is only doing things for you because you made him feels like crap.
> 
> ...


I always wonder how different these threads would be if it were MEN who didn't get off during sex with their wives. A lot of men seem to think there is no such thing as bad sex, and even if there were, the solution is to just have more bad sex so he keeps getting his orgasms.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

norajane said:


> I always wonder how different these threads would be if it were MEN who didn't get off during sex with their wives. A lot of men seem to think there is no such thing as bad sex, and even if there were, the solution is to just have more bad sex so he keeps getting his orgasms.


There are those. ED issues. Thing is, most men will do something about that instead of dumping it on their wives as their issue. Not all ED issues are 'medical' versus 'mental hangups'... How would you react if your husband blamed his flaccid member on you and not taking any responsibility at all?

Personally, I've seen my wife masterbate. She can get off faster than I could. I’ve had more than enough experience with her to know if her head is in the right place, she’ll have multiples and can always orgasm. So if she's not satisfied, perhaps she should take control find the position or instruct me so she is an active participant instead of just waiting for me to get her off and making that my responsibility. When did I become responsible for everything sexual in our relationship and why would I want that job? It hardly helps me feel truly loved, desired or wanted (a turn off ladies).

If I laid there, thinking about bad sex, marriage problems, work, fights, body issues, etc. I'll go limp... I've done that to her as well as failed to reach climax. I am also quite capable of turning myself off using my own head regardless of “opportunity”. Women seem to think we have no choice and just the opportunity to stick it somewhere warm and moist should be enough… ugh… And since she’ll hardly see it as a challenge to get me sexually charged, she won’t try harder, but instead roll over feeling rejected. Sounds about the same doesn’t it? 

Great sex is great sex, but your head needs to be in that place. Your spouse only influences your thoughts, but you direct them. So great sex won’t happen if you are seeking to make it an awful experience. You find what you seek.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Racer, SlowlyGrowingCrazy explained in detail exactly how her husband treats sex - he stopped wanting it when he actually had to do something to please her instead of it being all about him.

Her husband is not the only husband out there with that mindset.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

norajane said:


> Racer, SlowlyGrowingCrazy explained in detail exactly how her husband treats sex - he stopped wanting it when he actually had to do something to please her instead of it being all about him.
> 
> Her husband is not the only husband out there with that mindset.


Exactly, I have done a lot of searches to try to find a solution to this and have found many women's stories saying the same things all over the place. Sadly, not much help or success stories. One of the main suggestions is to cut him off until he can respect your needs. Apparently that makes you evil though. 

Honestly, I'm shocked that every sexless man story I have read here has a wife who orgasms (sometimes many times) every time. I'd love to read a success story on how a sexless marriage because of bad sex was fixed.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Can't help you there. I'm awesome at the sex. I have references.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

BOTH can kill a marriage.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Exactly, I have done a lot of searches to try to find a solution to this and have found many women's stories saying the same things all over the place. Sadly, not much help or success stories. One of the main suggestions is to cut him off until he can respect your needs. Apparently that makes you evil though.
> 
> Honestly, I'm shocked that every sexless man story I have read here has a wife who orgasms (sometimes many times) every time. I'd love to read a success story on how a sexless marriage because of bad sex was fixed.


You haven't read my threads then. My wife does not orgasm. It's bad sex, for both of us.

FWIW, I don't think you're evil or malicious. You've told your husband what you need and your husband chooses not to meet your needs. I wish my wife would be as forthcoming so I hadn't spent the last several years "chasing the why".


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

norajane said:


> Racer, SlowlyGrowingCrazy explained in detail exactly how her husband treats sex - he stopped wanting it when he actually had to do something to please her instead of it being all about him.
> 
> Her husband is not the only husband out there with that mindset.


I understand that... I'm in his shoes. 
How I got there might not be the same. 

My perception and how I work: I wanted sex so much because that is simply how I express my emotions toward her. So, being overwhelmed with desire, passion and love of her (all of her) is why I just had to express it all. It’s not just sex. It’s just such a strong pull… That is what she denied me. 
Her perception: She is insecure about how I value her and doesn’t see sex as an emotional outburst of those feelings. She’s more into love notes, mix tapes, romantic evenings, etc. for how you express those things. She created her own version of what I was thinking to be something extremely shallow and superficial; “It’s just sex.” And at some point, she got it in her head that I was using her; something I’d firmly deny at first…. (see below)

So healthy sex is rare now. There’s rarely an effort to get past her own head and try to accept sex in a loving, passionate moment. She slams on the brakes “I won’t be used…” Therefore she’s creating her own worst nightmare; She is being used because she offers nothing else emotionally with sex. 

She doesn’t say yes when I feel most loving and passionate toward her; thus because I feel that way, I’ll respect her “no”. She only says ‘yes’ when I’m making a pass out of pure sexual frustration. She offers duty sex. Duty sex, which lacks the emotional content, I absolutely hate. I got twisted enough that I don’t see it as US having sex, I see it as her offering me her body for my indulgence. So I hate screw her; it is the only emotion left because she passes on the loving moments, and offers me something I’ve grown to hate instead. A lovely self-fulfilling prophesy where she insures herself she is being used only for sex. Now she is more than entitled to feel used; Blaming me… ummm… different story of how it could be changed. …. And it is a major reason this marriage is dead. I don’t feel loved, desired, or wanted and have no ‘natural’ way to express or have this expressed to me. So I can do those things for her and often do. She feels loved; I do not. 

And most stories I hear aren’t so different. When you were dating, did you really feel you were being used for sex and was his want any less than it is now? I’ve never understood why that transition from girlfriend to wife changes how you view sex and what it means… Most guys didn’t change; How their wives interpreted sex did though.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"and unbelievable- pain is not part of the vows. No one has the right to hurt you physically to get their needs met. It's not the same as a Mother who provides their body for a child. A child has no other options, a man does. There's a reason why it's still against the law to rape your wife."

Your husband is excused from going to work if it makes his muscles sore? Is it physically painful for you to give your partner a hand, too? How about kissing? Is that excruciatingly painful for you? I wouldn't expect my partner to endure actual pain for sex but a normally functioning human being can figure out some way to take care of their partner's sexual needs unless they are completely paralyzed or just don't give a damn.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> You haven't read my threads then. My wife does not orgasm. It's bad sex, for both of us.
> 
> FWIW, I don't think you're evil or malicious. You've told your husband what you need and your husband chooses not to meet your needs. I wish my wife would be as forthcoming so I hadn't spent the last several years "chasing the why".


Taking a look at some of them now 




unbelievable said:


> Your husband is excused from going to work if it makes his muscles sore? Is it physically painful for you to give your partner a hand, too? How about kissing? Is that excruciatingly painful for you? I wouldn't expect my partner to endure actual pain for sex but a normally functioning human being can figure out some way to take care of their partner's sexual needs unless they are completely paralyzed or just don't give a damn.


LOL so instead of him taking the time to make sure I am ready before sex, your answer would be that I find other ways to pleasure him. Lovely. When I thought it was my pregnancy getting in the way, I did just that. When I was trying to save our relationship and felt meeting his needs would make him come around to meet mine, I did it then too. Didn't do anything BTW.
I'm a normal woman. I can climax fairly easily and often with proper stimulation. I don't need to stick to 1 position or room or time of day or lighting. If he wanted it bad enough he would just do it, he hasn't. The ball's in his court. If/when he is ready to make my needs a priority, I would stop withholding.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Vivid said:


> How are any of my comments off the discussion? I'm asking genuinely here, I was responding to the idea that "we" as a society view cheating to be the worst thing you can do in a relationship.


I'm a mod, not suggesting you were trying to derail ... but I can see them coming.

I didn't want the thread to become about what is 'worse' than cheating. We aren't discussing physical or emotional abuse, the loss of a child, marital rape etc ... 

We're good, we're still on track.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Mine cheated on me and still withholds...where does that leave me (I'm the HD partner). Apparently 3 times a week (my compromise offer to my wanting it every day) is still too much.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

CantePe said:


> Mine cheated on me and still withholds...where does that leave me (I'm the HD partner). Apparently 3 times a week (my compromise offer to my wanting it every day) is still too much.


Withholding and LD, the fact that they are cheating and see no reason in having sex with you is another reason for them "withholding"...

In your situation you could let her know that you guys might as well be single.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Well my answer to the question in your title has to be no. it is not as bad.

It is still a breach of the marriage vows if there is no good reason (e.g. health issues) .


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

*Re: Re: Is Sexual Withholding equally as wrong as Cheating?*



treyvion said:


> Withholding and LD, the fact that they are cheating and see no reason in having sex with you is another reason for them "withholding"...
> 
> In your situation you could let her know that you guys might as well be single.


He cheated 4 years ago. He hasn't since d-day. He still withholds. He is LD in the very definition of LD


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

jaquen said:


> The estimated 40 million sexless couples in the US are being defined by a "less than 10 times a year" criteria.
> 
> The number doesn't even begin to include those who are having sex just slightly above that number, just barely escaping the sexless label.
> 
> ...


Monogamy is difficult. It's not a natural state for most people. Having sex with one person, for 4 or 5 decades, enthusiastically and joyfully, is a hard thing, no pun intended. 

Some people can do it, because they are unusually well connected or very compatible. Most people aren't. So I don't think everyone can be expected to be successful. And once children are in the marriage, 'just move on then' is much much more difficult and complicated. I would endure almost anything to keep my children's home intact.

If children weren't involved, probably serial marriages, group marriages or other non-monogamous arrangements would work better over a person's lifetime, sexually speaking.

The truth is, sex does slow down over the years and decades. That's a reality. It's the majority of people's experience. That's why it's accepted. 

The funny thing is, although I'm arguing this side, from reading this board I can see I have one of the more sexually successful marriages here. Together more than 20 years, first love, first sexual partners, still very happy, still having very good sex 4-5 times a week. No cheating, no withholding or sexless periods.

I have noticed some hormonal changes, which have affected my libido, but not my behaviour.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

jaquen said:


> A temporary break in sex in order to calibrate and get back on the same page is not chronic, willful withholding. That example has very little to do with what I, many others, are referring to.


And what if temporarily suspending sex hadn't fixed anything? What if my friend's husband still refused to do what she needed to enjoy sex?

She has two young children, she wouldn't have put her sexual satisfaction above their right to live with both parents.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

A factor that I think is crucially missing in many of the comments on this thread is, ya know, sexual attraction?

Attraction waxes and wanes, and if one or both spouse loses attraction for the other, how can one reasonably expect for continued sexual activity?

Communication is key, and if attraction is lost it is up to each spouse to work at restoring it.

I think if some of the comments on here were re-framed in that context, rather than sexual duty, there would possibly be a lot more agreement about the term withholding and what that means. Rather than fulfilling the need for sex, we should be trying to fulfill each others needs for mutual sexual attraction, and let the sex flow from there.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Taking a look at some of them now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you still expect your husband to be sexually faithful to a woman who denies him? If so, why would you assume that right? Do you expect him to fulfill the duties expected of a husband even on the days you don't blow his skirt up? Are you a wife every day or only when he meets all your expectations? If you were incapacitated, would you still expect him to bring you meals? What if he's not hungry? What if he's resentful because you haven't met his expectations? Is he morally justified in starving you to death? If you have kids, do you feed them every day or only when they are well behaved and bring home great grades?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The Creator of the Universe calls withholding sex "fraud". You may have other opinions, but I doubt you have His credentials.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A vow is a binding promise. The key here is "binding". It is not an expression of good intentions. It is a promise to behave in certain ways regardless of how you happen to feel until you are no longer under the vow. If someone wishes to quit being a spouse, there is a legal mechanism to accomplish that. Not acting like a spouse while still in a spousal role doesn't make one unmarried but it does make one a liar and a fraud. We behave as spouses not because our partners always deserve it but because that's who we promised to be. Also, we understand that we will someday need the same consideration from our partner because none of us are entirely lovable at all times. If we expect our spouse to remain faithful even when we are jerks it stands to reason we are expected to remain faithful even on the days they are jerks. Refuse to behave as a wife or husband, as far as I'm concerned, you have forfeited all expectations of any duty from your partner. You stop showing up to work for a few months, you can hardly expect to have a job. You show up but just refuse to do your job for a few months, you are no longer an employee. Being replaced or kicked out is the only logical outcome and when that day happens, there should be no long faces or tears because you will have earned it daily.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Do you still expect your husband to be sexually faithful to a woman who denies him? If so, why would you assume that right? Do you expect him to fulfill the duties expected of a husband even on the days you don't blow his skirt up? Are you a wife every day or only when he meets all your expectations? If you were incapacitated, would you still expect him to bring you meals? What if he's not hungry? What if he's resentful because you haven't met his expectations? Is he morally justified in starving you to death? If you have kids, do you feed them every day or only when they are well behaved and bring home great grades?


If he gets something on the side then so should I. He doesn't meet my sexual needs either. 
So what exactly would you suggest I do? Just put out and shut up because my needs don't matter? Having sex whenever/however he wanted didn't fix it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Look at you ... posting without reading the links, the nerve.


I have my moments of being a bad-ass. 

And hyphenated to be taken seriously.




Deejo said:


> I think anyone responding is always going to use the reference point that matters most, their own.
> 
> I've done the postmortem on my marriage. I believe my ex-wife has as well.
> Were we armed then with what we know now, it is entirely possible that we may have made the journey you and your husband did. But you mentioned the magic word in our particular case; 'walls'.
> ...


What beautiful awareness. 


Selfishly, reading this actually helped me as I despise how I initially handled things when hubs and I reached that point. It was him that inspired the pause amidst my knee-jerk reaction - that I now see also lacked accountability and understanding. But despite that, we went through it all together. If I'd avoided that journey, we wouldn't be here. If he hadn't have initiated it, we wouldn't be here. 

This morning my husband expressed the need for something (oh, beHAVE!) and I noticed the mental resistance I felt and due to walls from childhood. When recognizing that and then rolling with it nonetheless to break those walls down, it can feel like mentally free-falling - being both scary and freeing. Granted, I'm not referring to walls related to trauma, just slight dysfunctions.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If he gets something on the side then so should I. He doesn't meet my sexual needs either.
> So what exactly would you suggest I do? Just put out and shut up because my needs don't matter? Having sex whenever/however he wanted didn't fix it.


I would recommend finding a place where your heart, your head, and your lady parts can all be attached to whatever person you claim to be. If you claim to be a wife, be one full time. If you wish to be single, be that full time. If you give permission to your vagina to vacate the marriage, the rest of you should follow. Right up until the day I filed for divorce, I'd be doing my best to be what I purported to be. If he's not your love partner, what is your relationship to him?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I would recommend finding a place where your heart, your head, and your lady parts can all be attached to whatever person you claim to be. If you claim to be a wife, be one full time. If you wish to be single, be that full time. If you give permission to your vagina to vacate the marriage, the rest of you should follow. Right up until the day I filed for divorce, I'd be doing my best to be what I purported to be. If he's not your love partner, what is your relationship to him?


These things take time. He doesn't want to leave his kids. We
need to save up money, tie up loose ends, etc. 

You're seriously saying that if you wife decided she didn't want to bother even TRYING to have good sex but still wanted her needs met and her only options were to give her oral sex (with you left hanging with nothing) or dry ramming something in your rear, painfully, it would be your duty to oblige. Every time until you could get divorce papers going? 

Marriage is not supposed to be getting taken advantage of. You meet each others needs lovingly but you also demand respect and mutual care. 

It's funny because it seems people can "cut off" everything else. 

Wife spends selfishly or is lazy with the budget- cut her off
Wife acts slightly bad during a night out drinking- don't let her go ever again
SAHW doesn't do enough cleaning- shut the cable/internet off in the house and don't give her a cent until she steps up
Wife doesn't take care of her car/cat/shoes- don't let her get a new one.

Husband doesn't want to take 30 minutes to properly have sex with his wife- don't even think about telling him that no one enters your vagina when it's not ready and cut him off until he will respect your needs and body. Lay back and let him do what he wants because your married and it's your job.

Is it just women who should be doormats?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree with you Slowly. There ARE situations or circumstances where it's fine to withhold, IF you are either working to fix the situation or planning to separate/divorce when you can. I suppose if you're both unhappy with the situation and can't fix it, and accept that there are other reasons to stay, then that's a choice you make. It may not be healthy, but it is still a choice. I also think neither should be surprised if one or both go outside the marriage for satisfaction - or better - agree to an open marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I have bought up open relationship a couple times. It's a no for him (and I have to fend off cheating accusations because if I brought it up, I must be sleeping with someone). In fact, he has told me he will leave willingly IF I promise I won't be with any other men- ever. 
Even though he could easily find young, hot women to sleep with (seriously, they don't even wait until I'm out of earshot to flirt with him) he seems to have no interest in that at all. His words- been there, done that. I want my FAMILY now, that's it. He picked me, a plain, Mom type, no drinking/parties, homebody, etc for a reason. 

I had really just dropped the idea of sex with him but this thread gave me some new energy. 
2 nights ago when I brought it up and what I needed him to do in order to have sex with me, his answer was to laugh, tell me to go F myself and that he's not being anyone's b*tch.
Last night when I asked him if he was calmed down and ready to do what was needed. He was quiet for a bit and said "Not yet."
With the messed up state that is our lives lately, that is progress. 

He's just very stubborn, very rebellious. Being told what to do makes him want to do the opposite. Although he'd never say it out loud, I think being told what to do by a *gasp* woman is part of the problem. For him it's a line, he either stands his ground or he's someone's b*tch. There's no wiggle room.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vivid said:


> And what if temporarily suspending sex hadn't fixed anything? What if my friend's husband still refused to do what she needed to enjoy sex?
> 
> She has two young children, she wouldn't have put her sexual satisfaction above their right to live with both parents.


Then that's the choice they made. If she and her husband could have existed in a sexless marriage, forever stagnant in a stalemate nobody wins, more power to them. I imagine eventually somebody would have broken though. The sexless stalemate would likely have led to further issues, deep resentments, that eventually ether caused a divorce or made both people very susceptible to affairs.

Cutting off the sexual flow potentially has greater consequences than just cutting out sex. And the issues that lead to sexlessness are seldom lite and unimportant. 

I wouldn't do it. I don't believe in living in a voluntarily sexless marriage for any reason. For me, and us, a voluntarily sexless marriage means there was something seriously wrong before the sexlessness began and even more wrong if we'd be unwilling to solve the problems.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I have bought up open relationship a couple times. It's a no for him (and I have to fend off cheating accusations because if I brought it up, I must be sleeping with someone). In fact, he has told me he will leave willingly IF I promise I won't be with any other men- ever.
> Even though he could easily find young, hot women to sleep with (seriously, they don't even wait until I'm out of earshot to flirt with him) he seems to have no interest in that at all. His words- been there, done that. I want my FAMILY now, that's it. He picked me, a plain, Mom type, no drinking/parties, homebody, etc for a reason.
> 
> I had really just dropped the idea of sex with him but this thread gave me some new energy.
> ...


I'm going to go right out and say that, based off the info you've given, you deserve a saint award for putting up with this ****.

Also sounds like you tripped up on some serious insight into your hub's mindset. 

Has he always been like this, unwilling to fulfill your sexual needs? If so, based off the comments above about the hot girls vs his "mom type" wife, could there be a whole Madonna/***** complex thing going on?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> These things take time. He doesn't want to leave his kids. We
> need to save up money, tie up loose ends, etc.
> 
> You're seriously saying that if you wife decided she didn't want to bother even TRYING to have good sex but still wanted her needs met and her only options were to give her oral sex (with you left hanging with nothing) or dry ramming something in your rear, painfully, it would be your duty to oblige. Every time until you could get divorce papers going?
> ...


I don't think anyone under any circumstances is obliged to consent to sex every time the subject is brought up. Still, in my opinion, if you are able but refusing your spouse for months on end, there is no marriage. You have already left. You just haven't bothered to get papers.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Do you believe the chronic, willful withholding of sex in a marriage is just as much of a vow breaker as infidelity?


Yes. Either way you're cheating your spouse.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> A vow is a binding promise. The key here is "binding". It is not an expression of good intentions. It is a promise to behave in certain ways regardless of how you happen to feel until you are no longer under the vow. If someone wishes to quit being a spouse, there is a legal mechanism to accomplish that. Not acting like a spouse while still in a spousal role doesn't make one unmarried but it does make one a liar and a fraud. We behave as spouses not because our partners always deserve it but because that's who we promised to be. Also, we understand that we will someday need the same consideration from our partner because none of us are entirely lovable at all times. If we expect our spouse to remain faithful even when we are jerks it stands to reason we are expected to remain faithful even on the days they are jerks. Refuse to behave as a wife or husband, as far as I'm concerned, you have forfeited all expectations of any duty from your partner. You stop showing up to work for a few months, you can hardly expect to have a job. You show up but just refuse to do your job for a few months, you are no longer an employee. Being replaced or kicked out is the only logical outcome and when that day happens, there should be no long faces or tears because you will have earned it daily.


The vows you take and your marriage commitment are absolutely key. If either spouse is refusing to work on their issues that the other has asked for, then they are breaking their vows. Whether that is sex or emotional connection or time together or any other deal breaker, the person who refuses is the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I didn't promise to be everything my wife could ever possibly imagine a man should be and she never promised to meet all expectations I might conceive. I did vow to be sexually faithful and she did the same. "Emotional connection" is an ambiguous term that means whatever someone wants it to mean. Someone suffering from depression, for example, will unlikely feel emotionally connected regardless of who they are with or what their partner does or doesn't do. Some pits are bottomless. If failing to fully meet the expectations of another human is just cause to deprive them of sex, then we might as well dispense with marriage. Nobody can make an unhappy person happy. Nobody can make a discontented person content. Nobody can love away mental illness, addiction, years of bad parenting, etc.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The more you make exceptions for marital sex, the more exceptions people prone to withhold will take.

The degree to which sex is important in any given relationship has to line up to a somewhat compatible level, at worst.

If you're a person who believes that there are plenty of legitimate reasons to cease sex in a marriage, such as "you didn't fulfill my emotional needs to my satisfaction" for example, that's fine. Just make sure that you marry someone who likewise believes that sex is conditional.

Opposing views of sex seem to be the core issue more so than how much, or little, sex anyone is getting.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

There is no human behavior so vile than people are unable to justify committing it.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> I didn't promise to be everything my wife could ever possibly imagine a man should be and she never promised to meet all expectations I might conceive. I did vow to be sexually faithful and she did the same. "Emotional connection" is an ambiguous term that means whatever someone wants it to mean. Someone suffering from depression, for example, will unlikely feel emotionally connected regardless of who they are with or what their partner does or doesn't do. Some pits are bottomless. If failing to fully meet the expectations of another human is just cause to deprive them of sex, then we might as well dispense with marriage. Nobody can make an unhappy person happy. Nobody can make a discontented person content. Nobody can love away mental illness, addiction, years of bad parenting, etc.


Living a lonely existence devoid of the happiness you should experience with your spouse is a deal breaker for me. Yours is sex. And just like few men are happy in a sexless marriage, few women would be happy with the relationship i just described. You can't easily describe chemistry between two people, but most people say they want that in their mate. If it's a deal breaker for you, then it is. Either you are committed to making the marriage work or you aren't.

People who are depressed are typically not interested in sex, either, no matter what their partner does or doesn't do. And if nobody can make an unhappy person happy, then why are all these HD people complaining at all! Having sex with their spouse won't make them happy, because nobody can make an unhappy person happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

ebp123 said:


> I know of no woman who deliberately starves their partner. Sorry, I just don't. I know of lots of women who have legitimate reasons for not having sex. I provided mine in an earlier thread (and another one here) and not a single person had a response. It seems that legitimate reasons are ignored in favor of your previously established and thus unerring perspective.




As strange as it seems to me, my wife has unambiguously stated recently that she at some point decided to "withhold sex because no one listens to me about the house.". She, notably, had kept that policy to herself.



This is similar to something she confessed earlier -- that she gave up and "stopped" doing housework since nobody cared. That policy, too, was covertly doled out.

(ETA: Please don' t anyone assume the worst about our split of house duties.)

I know that when things really first turned sharply for the worst, it was not a conscious act. I like to think it was circumstances (post-partum depression, breast-feeding/hormone dynamics, sleep deprivation). I like to think I was a conscientious and living husband and father.



I also believe over time, her lack of interest stemmed from a lack of attraction to me (deserved and undeserved), as well as a willingness to escape to EA fantasy-land with her first lover.



There have been lots of drivers behind our issues, and her disinterest in connecting with me. But, listening to her spoken words, I conclude she at times withheld as part if a conscious passive-aggressive mind f'ck.



Who knew grownups were capable of such bitter and mean behavior?



Ebp123, iirc you recently posted (maybe not on this thread), something about a man loving a woman less because she doesn't have sex with him, and you finding that devalues her. I didn't catch the full context, and I don't assume you were stating that is always the dynamic. Still, I'd like to point out:



No one can ever convince me during those MANY years of infrequent sex, lack of affection, apathy towards my needs, that I loved my wife less for any of it. I loved her dearly. I cared that she was hurting and conflicted. I sought relief for her grievances, beyond the point of understanding that addressing any and all of her expressed grievances would NOT fix what was broken inside her and keeping me at arms length. I gently nudged, sometimes pulled, sometimes pushed her to fill the holes inside herself, only to prove over again she values her fears more than my love.



I didn't live her less because there was no sex. However, I finally came to realize she did not love me -- not in the way that Ai need.



And yes, after years, the love has died.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ebp123 said:


> Living a lonely existence devoid of the happiness you should experience with your spouse is a deal breaker for me. Yours is sex. And just like few men are happy in a sexless marriage, few women would be happy with the relationship i just described. You can't easily describe chemistry between two people, but most people say they want that in their mate. If it's a deal breaker for you, then it is. Either you are committed to making the marriage work or you aren't.
> 
> People who are depressed are typically not interested in sex, either, no matter what their partner does or doesn't do. And if nobody can make an unhappy person happy, then why are all these HD people complaining at all! Having sex with their spouse won't make them happy, because nobody can make an unhappy person happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't believe the test of a successful marriage is one in which both parties are consistently "happy". It's one that works. No person on earth is consistently happy. 

Adults who are interested in sex are not necessarily HD. Most are functioning as normal humans. An adult in a marriage who is not interested in sex has one or more dysfunctions. People can't make us happy but they are quite capable of fraud and abuse. I suspect almost no people agree to a marriage in which there is little or no sex. Our culture has created a condition in which men typically lose more in a divorce. It is not reasonable to expect anyone on earth to meet each and every one of your expectations but sex is a reasonably expected part of marriage and has been since the origins of that institution. Whether I am "happy" with my wife or utterly unhappy, whether she hits all of my expectation points or hits none of them, I am expected to remain faithful every day. I am expected to support her...every day. If I divorced her, I'd still be expected to support her. I can't think of any area in my life where I can simply choose to not fulfill vows if I'm not deliriously "happy". Wives who think it's outrageous to have sex even if they don't feel like it see no problem with forcing celibacy upon another for months or years, compelling their partners to live as sexless zombies every day against their will.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I didn't promise to be everything my wife could ever possibly imagine a man should be and she never promised to meet all expectations I might conceive. I did vow to be sexually faithful and she did the same. "Emotional connection" is an ambiguous term that means whatever someone wants it to mean.


"Emotional connection" can be pretty easily spotted when it becomes an emotional affair.
There is a lot more than JUST sex that someone is dependent on their marriage partner for. 
If someone is starved of an emotional, romantic connection and goes outside the marriage to fulfill it, it's cheating too.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

The way I look at it is the years spent distracted by the lack of sex were years just wasted in confusion, partly made possible by her posturing that a romantically loving marriage is what she wanted with me, and enabled by self-deceit on both our parts.



I don't see much point in comparing that against anything, including affairs.



What I am experiencing is the death of a marriage, the death of love. It was not a single act. It was not, overall, a choice she or I made. She gets nothing good out of it, except maybe to escape having to look inward and growing.



Sexlessness was mostly a symptom. 



It is what it is. Why happens varies greatly. Not as useful to compare to other things that go wrong in marriages, as it is to understand what is at its root in any particular case. The root is what matters most.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> "Emotional connection" can be pretty easily spotted when it becomes an emotional affair.
> There is a lot more than JUST sex that someone is dependent on their marriage partner for.
> If someone is starved of an emotional, romantic connection and goes outside the marriage to fulfill it, it's cheating too.


If someone is starving and instead of staring at an empty plate for another year at home they go to a restaurant, that's not cheating. Nobody asked to be a sexual being. That is how the normal among us were created. If you accept a position as a jockey, it's reasonable to expect to see you riding a horse. If you seek and take a jockey position and then claim you hate horses, you have dishonestly obtained or held your position. You should either learn to like horses or climb out of your jockey suit, quit cashing your paycheck, and be something you can truly be 24/7.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> If someone is starving and instead of staring at an empty plate for another year at home they go to a restaurant, that's not cheating. Nobody asked to be a sexual being. That is how the normal among us were created. If you accept a position as a jockey, it's reasonable to expect to see you riding a horse. If you seek and take a jockey position and then claim you hate horses, you have dishonestly obtained or held your position. You should either learn to like horses or climb out of your jockey suit, quit cashing your paycheck, and be something you can truly be 24/7.


Humans are social creatures, not solitary. Most of us need friends, family, and the fulfillment that gives. If you don't need that, you are in the minority. It is not less important than sex and moreover, just as sexual drive is innate and primal, so is the need for emotional connection. Remember the study of the baby monkeys who were given the choice of starving and staying with the soft mother or food and the metal mother? They would rather starve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Then the question is this:

If chronic withholding is deemed appropriate under given circumstances...

Shouldn't fidelity be likewise deemed appropriate under given circumstances?

Are not fidelity and sexual availability symbolically tied? When promising to forsake all others, is it not for the sake of availability to one?

So if one person makes a unilateral decision to cut off sex in a marriage, even if it's for reasons they believe are justified, do they have the right to expect the other spouse, who is now in a forced celibate state, to remain sexually faithful?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Obviously. Still, according to this informal poll, a majority believe that one can only be released from their obligation of fidelity by a judge or the Grim Reaper but an alleged spouse can simply choose to withhold sex for the rest of their days at the drop of a hat for any reason or for no reason.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> Obviously. Still, according to this informal poll, a majority believe that one can only be released from their obligation of fidelity by a judge or the Grim Reaper but an alleged spouse can simply choose to withhold sex for the rest of their days at the drop of a hat for any reason or for no reason.


Hyperbole undermines your argument.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Obviously. Still, according to this informal poll, a majority believe that one can only be released from their obligation of fidelity by a judge or the Grim Reaper but an alleged spouse can simply choose to withhold sex for the rest of their days at the drop of a hat for any reason or for no reason.




There is always the option to be truthful -- take whatever action you feel you must, but be clear with your partner that is your intent and why.



Choosing to lie and deceive your chosen ones is always worse (setting aside extreme unavoidable circumstances), than living openly.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Marriage is at a 93 year low, even though we now consider any sort of an arrangement a "marriage". Contracts that aren't mutually beneficial are doomed for extinction.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

PieceOfSky said:


> As strange as it seems to me, my wife has unambiguously stated recently that she at some point decided to "withhold sex because no one listens to me about the house.". She, notably, had kept that policy to herself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You may have not loved her less due to lack of sex, but your love died for the very reasons I've said before. By making a conscious decision to manipulate you through passive aggressive means, she shows that she is not committed to your relationship. And when that is chronic, love dies.

I am glad I don't know her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> Marriage is at a 93 year low, even though we now consider any sort of an arrangement a "marriage". Contracts that aren't mutually beneficial are doomed for extinction.


That study is interesting. The more education women have, the more likely they are to marry and the less likely to divorce. So much for colleges being the liberal bastions indoctrinating our kids and ruining social mores! And so much for the idea that women once women made enough to support themselves, they divorce or don't marry at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Obviously. Still, according to this informal poll, a majority believe that one can only be released from their obligation of fidelity by a judge or the Grim Reaper but an alleged spouse can simply choose to withhold sex for the rest of their days at the drop of a hat for any reason or for no reason.


"Cheating" is simply defined as deceptively breaking a rule in order to gain a personal reward, and this is the definition I pretty much hold with regards to marriage and relationships as well.

So any sort of secret affair is certainly cheating, and so too are any forms of withholding needs from a spouse if it is being done so deceptively, to gain an advantage.

To say which is worse, infidelity vs withholding sex, isn't really a comprehensive question. The only way to determine which is worse is by determining whether or not one or the other is outside of mutually agreed upon boundaries.

Withholding sex, but being transparent with your spouse about why, and what you will do about it is entirely in a different league than running around behind your spouse's back in a secret affair. Conversely, denying you spouse sex and deliberately misdirecting them about your reasons and having no intention to let them fulfill their needs in the marriage is in a different league than an open marriage.

Al that matters is if both spouses are on the same side of mutually agreed upon boundaries or not - if both parties choose to move the boundary then the relationship still has a basis, but if one is outside and the other not given an opportunity to consider moving the boundary, it is deception. It is cheating (for any kind of actions be they infidelity, withholding needs, hiding money etc).


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/magazine/can-marriage-cure-poverty.html?_r=0

12% of kids living with both parents live below the poverty line but 50% of kids living with a single mother do. Outside of marriage, women are more likely than men to live in poverty across all ethnic groups and across all ages.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Three Out Of Four Women Would Not Marry An Unemployed Man: Report


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Male Unemployment Increases Risk of Divorce | Psych Central News


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> An employed American male is rather like a rock star in the eyes of most adult women on the face of the planet. Feel free to withhold sex from one for any reason or for no reason, as you deem best. One more American female on poverty roles won't make any difference.


This and your links, IMO, come down to personal emotional needs and boundaries. 

If someone has an EN of financial security and decides their spouse must be employed consistently or they will divorce, that is a valid choice.
Just like if someone has an EN of sexual fulfillment and decides that their spouse must be trying to meet that need consistently or they will divorce. 

One is not better or worse or more justified that the next. People's EN and what they are and are not willing to compromise on or live with is different for everyone. 

You speak as though sex is the ONLY need that matters in a relationship, like it's the only job a spouse has. 

That and implying that a woman should put out so she can have financial security is disturbing.... also that all a male is required to do is bring home a paycheck.....


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This and your links, IMO, come down to personal emotional needs and boundaries.
> 
> If someone has an EN of financial security and decides their spouse must be employed consistently or they will divorce, that is a valid choice.
> Just like if someone has an EN of sexual fulfillment and decides that their spouse must be trying to meet that need consistently or they will divorce.
> ...


Especially when many, many women are bringing in their own paychecks, sometimes bigger than their husbands'...

You get on any commuter train in the morning and it's filled with women. Why is this so often ignored on TAM? As though women don't have jobs and everyone is a SAHM.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This and your links, IMO, come down to personal emotional needs and boundaries.
> 
> If someone has an EN of financial security and decides their spouse must be employed consistently or they will divorce, that is a valid choice.
> Just like if someone has an EN of sexual fulfillment and decides that their spouse must be trying to meet that need consistently or they will divorce.
> ...


I speak about sex withholding because this thread only pertains to two behaviors (withholding and adultery). I'm not an expert on the latter. I will yield on that issue to those with experience as adulterers. Obviously, other matters are important to the success of a marriage, but those issues weren't polled on this thread. Ask my opinion on their relative importance and I'll prove it. Until quite recently, however, a marriage wasn't even legally valid until a sexual act was completed. In the eyes of the state, if a male and female both had a pulse, a marriage license, and engaged in intercourse, they were married. For states that recognized common law marriage, living together and having sexual relations long enough made you legally married, even without a license or a ceremony.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

Is Chronic Withholding as bad as Adultery?

Not usually, but it depends on the reasons for the withholding.


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