# found condom -- further discussion



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

x598 said:


> oh and tell him to come here and post HIS side of the story.
> 
> it will save you thousands and cut straight to the core issue.
> 
> you may have to take some heat though too.


Yeah, because we are just aching to hear the point of view of a cheater, right?

Actually, no. That's wrong. We aren't.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*

@x598

There are several threads in private and coping with infidelity started by male betrayed spouses who failed to meet their wayward wives' emotional needs. They need your opposing view expressed as eloquently as you did with this OP.



> but step back for a moment and don't focus on what may or may not have happened and look at the big picture. the EA and what might have happened are just symptoms, not the root issue here.
> 
> the massive white elephant in the room you arent seeing is you marriage was failing, most likely long before any of this started. The podium you are shouting from and judging him on doesn't have the same moral high ground as you are also to blame for the failure of the marriage and have admitted to not meeting his needs. Isn't that also a form of breaking marriage vows?
> 
> it's like this.......if you were wandering in a barren desert, thirsty....and came across an oasis.......of course you would drink from it. Well you marriage, for whatever reasons, has become desolate, and you had a hand in that. If you want to be the victim, focus on these actions of your husband entirely and not take any responsibility for what got the marriage in this position, well, thats a sure recipe for a divorce and quite frankly likely to be repeated in your next relationship.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> @x598
> 
> There are several threads in private and coping with infidelity started by male betrayed spouses who failed to meet their wayward wives' emotional needs. They need your opposing view expressed as eloquently as you did with this OP.


thanks and again i am not excusing the OP's husbands actions. 

but to simply lay all the blame on the guy, where it has been admitted the relationship was estranged and the OP knew it..........the real issue should be how he choose to handle the situation incorrectly and in reality look to what got them there in the first place.

There is that old saying the grass is greenest where you water it. But i thought of another, "weeds grow where the garden is left untended"......


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



x598 said:


> thanks and again i am not excusing the OP's husbands actions.
> 
> but to simply lay all the blame on the guy, where it has been admitted the relationship was estranged and the OP knew it..........the real issue should be how he choose to handle the situation incorrectly and in reality look to what got them there in the first place.
> 
> There is that old saying the grass is greenest where you water it. But i thought of another, "weeds grow where the garden is left untended"......


I get that. What I'm saying is that you need to spread that message to the threads where the OP is a man who freely admits not "watering the lawn in his garden" and then finds out his wife has decided to get her lawn watered by the neighbor. We don't see very many betrayed men being told "hey, did you meet your wife's needs? If not, get to it. Otherwise don't be surprised when she cheats on you." YKWIM?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I get that. What I'm saying is that you need to spread that message to the threads where the OP is a man who freely admits not "watering the lawn in his garden" and then finds out his wife has decided to get her lawn watered by the neighbor. We don't see very many betrayed men being told "hey, did you meet your wife's needs? If not, get to it. Otherwise don't be surprised when she cheats on you." YKWIM?




Can you pm me the titles of those threads? I’m happy to spread that message. I don’t normally look at that kind of thread, so not posting on them has nothing to do with any difference in my opinion vis a vis male or female betrayed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I get that. What I'm saying is that you need to spread that message to the threads where the OP is a man who freely admits not "watering the lawn in his garden" and then finds out his wife has decided to get her lawn watered by the neighbor. We don't see very many betrayed men being told "hey, did you meet your wife's needs? If not, get to it. Otherwise don't be surprised when she cheats on you." YKWIM?



i totally get what you are saying. i will say there is a difference though. Here is what i mean.

There have been plenty of waywards (and i say that non gender specific because it could be the male or the female) that talk how horrible their spouse was and that is was what drove them to cheat. But as has been seen many times over.....the waywards want to R with their spouse. That to me is a HUGE red flag that the complaint of poor treatment by the betrayed really has nowhere near the validity they are making it out to be. kind of an oxymoron really. If that person was so bad, why go back after the cat is out of the bag?

I find it rare for someone to come here and admit they treated their spouse poorly, and own up to it. its usually betas that after their world has blown up from infidelity they fall on the sword that was presented to them thinking they are doing what is the right thing to save a relationship that belongs in the rubbish bin.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



x598 said:


> i totally get what you are saying. i will say there is a difference though. Here is what i mean.
> 
> There have been plenty of waywards (and i say that non gender specific because it could be the male or the female) that talk how horrible their spouse was and that is was what drove them to cheat. But as has been seen many times over.....the waywards want to R with their spouse. That to me is a HUGE red flag that the complaint of poor treatment by the betrayed really has nowhere near the validity they are making it out to be. kind of an oxymoron really. If that person was so bad, why go back after the cat is out of the bag?


Surprisingly I agree. That's why I think blaming this OP for the alleged lack of sex is unfair. Upon getting caught, her husband immediately wanted to "work things out". 
He also recommended marriage counseling. If the sex was so lacking then why even bother to try to fix anything.



x598 said:


> I find it rare for someone to come here and admit they treated their spouse poorly, and own up to it. its usually betas that after their world has blown up from infidelity they fall on the sword that was presented to them thinking they are doing what is the right thing to save a relationship that belongs in the rubbish bin.


Well then instead of blaming the betrayed spouse, which in most of these cases happens to be female, why not just advise her to put the marriage in the rubbish bin and leave it at that?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Nothing justifies cheating.

Stuff you mentioned justifies leaving and filing for divorce. Not cheating.

My wife cheated. She had her reasons.

I never accepted any blame for her inexcusable and terrible behavior. I punished her for two years, and made her life a living hell. 

Sure, in the end I changed to meet her needs, but that was only because I chose to keep her. She has no illusion her cheating may have been somewhat justified, even in the tiniest little bit. Under no circumstances should a wayward spouse ever think cheating might be acceptable. Not in any case. 

Complain, loudly. Leave. 

Never cheat. This is an absolute.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Surprisingly I agree. That's why I think blaming this OP for the alleged lack of sex is unfair. Upon getting caught, her husband immediately wanted to "work things out".
> He also recommended marriage counseling. If the sex was so lacking then why even bother to try to fix anything.
> 
> 
> ...


i dont IMMEDIATELY advise scrapping anything. Sometimes these things can be salvaged, and sometimes there are kids involved and there are other dynamics that warrant at least _trying_ to work things out.

look....i agree with you too......but not just because "the sex was so lacking" (why is EVERYTHING tied to sex)......that too is a symptom of the failing marriage and has every right to leave if he wishes.

what i am trying to say, is it seems like as peoples relationships and lives mature.......there are all sorts of other priorities that over takes us. work, kids, a natural 'evolution' of tastes and desires......and too often the subtitles of ones needs not being met get lost in the sauce.

This event, his EA and potential cheating was the BOMB that went off to either own up and address issue on both sides to grow, heal, and reconnect as a couple or part ways. That is the reason i advised the OP to have her husband come here and give us his views of the situation. Its rare that that actually happens but always portrays the issues in a different light where there is plenty of blame to go around.

I'll say it for like the 10th time......I agree he was 100% wrong for what he has done. but to me is just a symptom and not the root. Not everyone has the wisdom, courage and strength to handle these matters in the appropriate way as i am guessing was the case here. maybe i am wrong and he is just a typical serial cheat and she has only discovered the tip of the iceberg. I doubt it though, the OP IMO sounds pretty intense and i bet she has gone through every inch of his life since this was uncovered. every drawer, glove box, phone, computer you name it and if anything else was found i bet we would have heard it. 

I also find it interesting the OP has pulled down her post and hasn't answered to some of the focus that has shifted her way. Instead others have chimed in defending her to which she has agreed with. I hope some of this is resonating and making her re-think her position. I wish her no ill will and hope for the best outcome for her.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Surprisingly I agree. That's why I think blaming this OP for the alleged lack of sex is unfair. Upon getting caught, her husband immediately wanted to "work things out".
> He also recommended marriage counseling. If the sex was so lacking then why even bother to try to fix anything.
> 
> 
> ...


All too often what I see in threads where this happens is that two separate, but related issues are being addressed at the same time. The first being the infidelity part, and overwhelmingly people do put the blame for the cheating directly on the cheater 100%. The other thing that is addressed is the marital environment and issue that led one spouse to be at higher risk for cheating. Those are two separate things that cannot be addressed at the same time without terribly muddying the waters.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



x598 said:


> i dont IMMEDIATELY advise scrapping anything. Sometimes these things can be salvaged, and sometimes there are kids involved and there are other dynamics that warrant at least _trying_ to work things out.
> 
> look....i agree with you too......but not just because "the sex was so lacking" (why is EVERYTHING tied to sex)......that too is a symptom of the failing marriage and has every right to leave if he wishes.
> 
> ...


MODERATOR NOTE--

I find it interesting, and baffling that, despite moderators making clear warnings that victim blaming would result in further actions being taken, some people just will not comply.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> All too often what I see in threads where this happens is that two separate, but related issues are being addressed at the same time. The first being the infidelity part, and overwhelmingly people do put the blame for the cheating directly on the cheater 100%. The other thing that is addressed is the marital environment and issue that led one spouse to be at higher risk for cheating. Those are two separate things that cannot be addressed at the same time without terribly muddying the waters.


I do see what you're seeing but again it's usually on threads where the Betrayed Spouse is a woman who admits to not meeting her husband's needs. On this thread specifically, the first handful of posts were either blaming the OP for her husband's cheating or asking about the lack of sex - none addressed the evidence of infidelity (some were deleted my mods). Hell one of the last posts by the OP was actually finding text messages between her husband and another woman, and people are STILL blaming her. 

I do not see it on threads where the betrayed spouse is a man who admits to not meeting his wife's needs. Those usually go straight to "she's a cheating liar", "find/document evidence", "get a lawyer", " expose to all and sundry", "kick her out of the house", etc.. Maybe after a 100 posts or so someone MAY bring up the unmet needs but that's not common. 

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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I do see what you're seeing but again it's usually on threads where the Betrayed Spouse is a woman who admits to not meeting her husband's needs. On this thread specifically, the first handful of posts were either blaming the OP for her husband's cheating or asking about the lack of sex - none addressed the evidence of infidelity (some were deleted my mods). Hell one of the last posts by the OP was actually finding text messages between her husband and another woman, and people are STILL blaming her.
> 
> I do not see it on threads where the betrayed spouse is a man who admits to not meeting his wife's needs. Those usually go straight to "she's a cheating liar", "find/document evidence", "get a lawyer", " expose to all and sundry", "kick her out of the house", etc.. Maybe after a 100 posts or so someone MAY bring up the unmet needs but that's not common.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Well, this thread has just been kind of bizarre from the beginning. It seems more like a sexless marriage thread than an infidelity thread. The very first response was a woman asking for more details as to why the relationship was lacking in the sex department. Open ended question that was not accusatory at all. I imagine if the response had to do with Heartbrokensunfamyo8lower's needs not being met, that her husband was an all around ass things may have gone a bit differently. Unfortunately, the marital issues became the topic from the get go, and without a clear cut "My husband banged another woman while he was at his cousins wedding, and then lied to me about it." it never really got back on track. The most asked question that was never answered was if she wanted this marriage to continue.

It also seem that posts from betrayed wives often initially present more, and presumably more objective details about the overall state of the marriage leading up to the affair than do betrayed men.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



x598 said:


> by quoting my opinion i assume you are speaking to me. I am not sure what this "victim blaming" is you speak of. I have said countless times the OP's husband cheating was all on him. If my representation of circumstances that were a contributing factor in someones behavior is a form of "victim blaming" well i need a clearer explanation of this term.
> 
> I could argue her husband was a victim. Maybe he was starved for affection, sex, whatever. and to a certain extent the OP has admitted that. but we dont have his side of the story and only limited admissions from the OP.
> 
> The point is, why is offering an alternative view to what the subject is at hand, now being called "victim blaming"? seems crazy to me and while my opinion may not be right, certainly has the validity to be explored or examined or even asked.


This is a thread about a husbands infidelity, and needs to remain that. Full stop. The state of their their apparent sexless marriage is an entirely different subject for a different thread should Heartbrokensunfamyo8lower wish to dig into that side of things further.

At this point, I think the only way this thread needs to move forward depends upon what Heartbrokensunfamyo8lower wants to do with regards to her marriage...try and reconcile, or end it. And up to this point, she has not stated either way.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> Well, this thread has just been kind of bizarre from the beginning. It seems more like a sexless marriage thread than an infidelity thread. The very first response was a woman asking for more details as to why the relationship was lacking in the sex department. Open ended question that was not accusatory at all. I imagine if the response had to do with Heartbrokensunfamyo8lower's needs not being met, that her husband was an all around ass things may have gone a bit differently. Unfortunately, the marital issues became the topic from the get go, and without a clear cut "My husband banged another woman while he was at his cousins wedding, and then lied to me about it." it never really got back on track. The most asked question that was never answered was if she wanted this marriage to continue.
> 
> It also seem that posts from betrayed wives often initially present more, and presumably more objective details about the overall state of the marriage leading up to the affair than do betrayed men.


Let's suppose for a second that a man had come on TAM and posted this:



> The last few years of our marriage have been rough. What with kids, work, the house....we barely spend time together. She has brought up the fact that she's lonely and feels like roommates not husband and wife.
> 
> Last week my wife went away for a girl's weekend. While putting away her luggage, I found an unused condom. It just so happened to be a condom from our stash at home.
> 
> What do I do?


Do you think the first post on a thread like the one above would be asking for clarification on the emotional needs status in their relationship? Or do you think things would jump straight to the unused condom and the girl's weekend?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> This is a thread about a husbands infidelity, and needs to remain that. Full stop. The state of their their apparent sexless marriage is an entirely different subject for a different thread should Heartbrokensunfamyo8lower wish to dig into that side of things further.
> 
> At this point, I think the only way this thread needs to move forward depends upon what Heartbrokensunfamyo8lower wants to do with regards to her marriage...try and reconcile, or end it. And up to this point, she has not stated either way.


I think she's gone. She deleted her OP yesterday?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Let's suppose for a second that a man had come on TAM and posted this:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think the first post on a thread like the one above would be asking for clarification on the emotional needs status in their relationship? Or do you think things would jump straight to the unused condom and the girl's weekend?


I doubt the first post would be about the emotional needs, you are correct in that. I would however fully expect to see the "victim blaming" in asking him why he was OK with his wife going in the first place, especially with his self description of the state of their marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> I doubt the first post would be about the emotional needs, you are correct in that. I would however fully expect to see the "victim blaming" in asking him why he was OK with his wife going in the first place, especially with his self description of the state of their marriage.


Lila's example not analogous to the OP since in the OP, her husband went to a cousin’s wedding... a family event. That's not the same as “girl's weekend,”

I highly doubt that the in that scenario the first post would be victim blaming and asking him why he was ok with his wife going to a family event… a wedding.

Instead what I would expect is that the first post would be that his wife was lying when she said that she brought along the condom but then did not use it and did not cheat… instead the OP would be told that his wife was clearly cheating. That he needs to man up, throw her out of the house and file for divorce ASAP.

The second post would probably be to tell him to DNA test all of his children.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I think she's gone. She deleted her OP yesterday?


Of course she's gone. One more female poster driven off TAM because she was blamed for her husband's infidelity right off the bat.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



EleGirl said:


> Lila's example not analogous to the OP since in the OP, her husband went to a cousin’s wedding... a family event. That's not the same as “girl's weekend,”
> 
> I highly doubt that the in that scenario the first post would be victim blaming and asking him why he was ok with his wife going to a family event… a wedding.
> 
> ...


And in the first several posts on this thread, it was clearly the general consensus that he was cheating, and Heartbrokensunfamyo8lower was asked a few times early on what she wanted to do with her relationship.

There was a thread not too long ago where the guy's wife got drunk and cheated with a friend when he got called into work, and left her there with a group of their friends. There was quite a lot of the kick her out, DNA the kids, advice, but there was a fair amount of blaming him for leaving her there, and because the wife has social anxiety and didn't usually drink, that was used to excuse her behavior.  That thread managed to largely stay on track though.

I think this thread is a good example of why many people advise that the affair has to be dealt with first before the larger marital issues can be worked on. When the two separate issues are intermingled, clarity is lost and things fall apart.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



EleGirl said:


> Of course she's gone. One more female poster driven off TAM because she was blamed for her husband's infidelity right off the bat.


My H was a serial cheater who trickle-truthed for years and exposed me to an STD. I STILL got grief from some posters over the fact that our sex life had become more infrequent. One poster accused me of not liking sex (that's often the accusation for female BS) and another basically told me that this is what I should have expected to happen. The first words out of my H mouth after he confessed was that it was only because I wasn't having sex with him enough. That's often the go to response from some members here and, though I don't think it's necessarily the majority view, those who do hold that attitude tend to jump in and repeat it over and over again. 


I haven't been driven off TAM because there are a lot of wise people here offering good advice and I like to be able to offer some myself when I think I may be able to be of help. I try to ignore the hostile and unfair attacks that some feel the need to perpetuate.


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## VibrantWings (Sep 8, 2017)

*Re: Found Condom*



EleGirl said:


> Lila's example not analogous to the OP since in the OP, her husband went to a cousin’s wedding... a family event. That's not the same as “girl's weekend,”
> 
> I highly doubt that the in that scenario the first post would be victim blaming and asking him why he was ok with his wife going to a family event… a wedding.
> 
> ...



This x 1000.

Crikey it's mind boggling. I sometimes think the site should be renamed Talk About Divorce because I see it being said over and over. The title "Talk About Marriage" seems to imply to me that the focus would be on SAVING marriages. Go figure....

BTW, I am TWICE DIVORCED and to hell if I'm going to TELL anyone else to lose or keep their marriage just because I'm not that arrogant... or bitter about my own not working out.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*

As hard as some want to try to make men and women equal in all aspects, it's not possible. Statistics seem to bear out that women can overcome a man's infidelity more readily than a man can overcome a woman's infidelity. Hence you get different advice for a different situation. The chorus of " But,but,but a man did it and you said..." or "But,but,but a woman did it and you said ..." is just trying to place an equivalency where there is not one.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



Rubix Cubed said:


> As hard as some want to try to make men and women equal in all aspects, it's not possible. Statistics seem to bear out that women can overcome a man's infidelity more readily than a man can overcome a woman's infidelity. Hence you get different advice for a different situation. The chorus of " But,but,but a man did it and you said..." or "But,but,but a woman did it and you said ..." is just trying to place an equivalency where there is not one.


Does this mean we should tell betrayed wives to overlook their husband's affair and do everything in their power to meet their cheating husband's supposed unmet needs but tell betrayed husband's they didn't deserve to be cheated and to dump their cheating wives?

How is this helpful? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

*Re: Found Condom*

Might as well jump in.

First, I am saddened that the OP deleted posts, but she may be concerned about someone reading them and figuring out what she had posted. If she did talk to an attorney, he might have advised her to do that. Not sure why, but....

Second, I am generally, very pro-marriage and feel that two people, especially if they have kids should at least jointly and rationally figure out if the marriage can be salvaged and rebuilt, before they march into divorce. I think that advising divorce as the only option after an affair is not fair to any OP as they might want to rebuild their marriage. There are lots of male posters who talk about their wife's affair and I would ask them if they really want to divorce or if they might want to try some counseling first. I think even in a hopeless marriage mismatch, that marriage counseling can help both partners with moving on and might even allow them to change and stay together.

Third, I am a fan of MW Davis and her books Divorce Busting and Sex Starved Marriage. She generally advises that most troubled couples do a dance or downward spiral where they each do things that cause the marriage to deteriorate to the point that if fails. Yes, sometimes on partner is the innocent victim, but often times they are not totally blame less. I know that I originally felt like the victim (wife was frigid) in my marriage crisis, but eventually learned that I was part of the problem that cause her to emotionally check out of the marriage. It took that insight and changing myself before things could improve

And so asking the OP in this case to look in the mirror (not trying to drive her off or trying to turn her into the evil party) is not as terrible as some of the language may suggest.

Finally, I guess I have seen a number of real life families where cheating has occurred and the event has been a wake-up call for recommitting to marriage by both spouses.

Do I think that the H was a jerk and if he didn't cheat, it was on his mind and it would soon turn into cheating? Yes. 

Was it serious enough to end the marriage? That would depend on what the wife wanted, the husband wanted and if both could work together to change and build a healthy marriage out of such a mess.


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## veganmermaid (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



blahfridge said:


> My H was a serial cheater who trickle-truthed for years and exposed me to an STD. I STILL got grief from some posters over the fact that our sex life had become more infrequent. One poster accused me of not liking sex (that's often the accusation for female BS) and another basically told me that this is what I should have expected to happen. The first words out of my H mouth after he confessed was that it was only because I wasn't having sex with him enough. That's often the go to response from some members here and, though I don't think it's necessarily the majority view, those who do hold that attitude tend to jump in and repeat it over and over again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I had a similar experience on another infidelity forum before I found TAM. (I’m a betrayed wife too.) 

I think as a society we need to be questioning why the unmet need of sexual affection / intercourse is viewed as more important, more crucial, more of a deal-breaker, than any other kind of need. AND why we have developed the expectation that wives, girlfriends, fiancées “should” always be willing to meet their male partners’ sexual needs EVEN WHEN their needs (for companionship or quality time or nonsexual affection or WHATEVER) are going unmet. 

So often it seems a woman says, “My husband hasn’t been meeting X need” and the response is, “Well, have you been meeting his sexual needs?”

It’s pretty difficult to cultivate a healthy sexual relationship when your “love bank” is empty and your spouse’s defense is, “Well, we’re not having as much sex anymore.” Yeah, Well, often all the romance, the quality time, the nonsexual touching, etc have gone by the wayside too. Why doesn’t that matter? Why is sex the be-all end-all and shame on you if your drive dries up?

This has just always really bothered me. I don’t think I’m expressing my thoughts clearly but I think this aspect of our social expectations bears some curiosity and probing.


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## KaraBoo0723 (Oct 1, 2016)

*Found Condom*

So going off of some comments here, I would have been justified to have sex with someone other than my husband because he refused sex with me for 13 months. Hell, I’ve never had sex as frequently as I want it so if I go screw some other guy then it’s purely my husband’s fault, right? Or is it different because I am the wife?

In that case, my XH cheated for years before I opened my eyes — but once again I was the HD spouse whose physical intimacy needs were largely unmet. Is his cheating still my fault?

OP as the HD spouse in a very drive mismatched marriage, there is no valid excuse for your husband’s actions and lies. The gender of the sex-starved spouse is irrelevant — cheating is cheating.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Does this mean we should tell betrayed wives to overlook their husband's affair and do everything in their power to meet their cheating husband's supposed unmet needs but tell betrayed husband's they didn't deserve to be cheated and to dump their cheating wives?
> 
> How is this helpful?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes1

We must contact our Village's/Cities's Administrator.
Tell him/her that we must have equal trash dumping standards. :grin2:


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



CuddleBug said:


> I agree but we still don't know why the sex in their marriage is every few months and why it was rocky.....do we?
> 
> 
> That would answer a lot of questions instead of blaming him 100%......


OP might be the reason for the state of the marriage. 

Her husband is 100% to blame for trying to cheat. There is never an excuse for cheating.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



inmyprime said:


> She made three on this thread, starting the thread today.


Then deleted two.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



inmyprime said:


> I think I know what it is (sorry for a quick TJ). @EleGirl mentioned that there are more men posting than women on TAM and at the same time expressed frustration regarding this and the fact that women don't get enough adequate support from other women.
> I think that often men don't feel 'qualified' or comfortable enough to offer support to women. I often am careful how to reply to a post posted by a woman because I worry I might say something wrong or stupid or insensitive (or all three) by mistake and the woman may not be so comfortable/overwhelmed when many men reply to her problem: the fact is, it IS easier for a guy to relate to a guy problem and vice versa it doesn't mean we don't empathise with women just that maybe we expect there will be more women doing that (but there aren't).
> I am not sure what the solution is.
> I try blaming men for plenty of things (mainly for playing the victim, that's usually a classic). So neither men OR women like me here.
> ...



I understand what Elle means in the context of all posters and esp OP's getting a balanced response. However, I am thankful for the males who post here because as a woman it is good to get a man's point of view which is often very different.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



veganmermaid said:


> I had a similar experience on another infidelity forum before I found TAM. (I’m a betrayed wife too.)
> 
> I think as a society we need to be questioning why the unmet need of sexual affection / intercourse is viewed as more important, more crucial, more of a deal-breaker, than any other kind of need. AND why we have developed the expectation that wives, girlfriends, fiancées “should” always be willing to meet their male partners’ sexual needs EVEN WHEN their needs (for companionship or quality time or nonsexual affection or WHATEVER) are going unmet.
> 
> ...


And the normal first questions in threads started by men with sexless marriages are "Have you been meeting her needs? Are you spending enough quality time? Date nights? Still romancing her? In good shape? Doing your share around the house? With the kids?"


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



KaraBoo0723 said:


> So going off of some comments here, I would have been justified to have sex with someone other than my husband because he refused sex with me for 13 months. Hell, I’ve never had sex as frequently as I want it so if I go screw some other guy then it’s purely my husband’s fault, right? Or is it different because I am the wife?
> 
> In that case, my XH cheated for years before I opened my eyes — but once again I was the HD spouse whose physical intimacy needs were largely unmet. Is his cheating still my fault?
> 
> OP as the HD spouse in a very drive mismatched marriage, there is no valid excuse for your husband’s actions and lies. The gender of the sex-starved spouse is irrelevant — cheating is cheating.


Justified and right for it? No. An affair is never right.

That said, given the state of the marriage you describe, an affair would not be surprising at all. Unmet needs of any kind within the marriage always put the marriage at risk, and an affair is one of many things being risked. There is no possible way to completely eliminate all risks and threats to the marriage, and affairs do happen in even the best most perfect marriages, but it is always in the best interest of the marriage if both partners do everything they can to minimize any known risk factors.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

*Re: Found Condom*

Well since the topic of this thread is now how to keep more women posting on TAM...... And incidentally how to get less men to post . . .

I'd like to make a blanket apology / clarification. Failure to meet the emotional needs of a non gender specific spouse is not grounds for cheating. It is grounds for separation / divorce. 

There is no acceptable rationalization for cheating.
There is also no acceptable rationalization for failure to meet the emotion needs or your spouse.

the subject of illness or grieving. From time to time in a long term relationship there will be events that can and do cause a Temporary lull in affections. As long as that is temporary and as long as a desire to return to normal relations is shown then temporary failure to meet emotional needs is temporarily justified. Obviously in the case of a permanent illness the couple would have to renegotiate.

The most basic of freedoms is the freedom to quit.

In the case of this particular thread. There was a temporary lull in sexual activity, that was not part of the regular affection and activity during the bulk of the relationship. The Condom in the pocket was there because the man was in the midst of an affair that started before the sexual break. It was not used on the trip because the affair partner did not go on the trip. The husband did not address the sexual break because he was already gone. The OP was well served by her suspicion of the condom in that it led her to the truth, even though she was at first thinking One night stand, and it ended up being long term affair. 

And finally, at the end of posts like this a quirky devil in the back of my mind is thinking. I can escape / exit without the trouble of finding an affair partner. All I have to do is leave a condom in my pocket.


----------



## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Does this mean we should tell betrayed wives to overlook their husband's affair and do everything in their power to meet their cheating husband's supposed unmet needs but tell betrayed husband's they didn't deserve to be cheated and to dump their cheating wives?
> 
> How is this helpful?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


 Nope, it doesn't mean that at all. It means 'one size does NOT fit all', and the automatic, knee-jerk reaction to try to make it one size fits all is what derails all of these threads. I generally tell males and females to file for divorce and see what happens after the divorce. I also avoid many of the BW threads because I feel I can't relate directly to her situation, and occasionally voice my opinion where I see I can.
Bottomline: Why on earth would anyone WANT women and men to be the same?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



Rubix Cubed said:


> Nope, it doesn't mean that at all. It means 'one size does NOT fit all', and the automatic, knee-jerk reaction to try to make it one size fits all is what derails all of these threads. I generally tell males and females to file for divorce and see what happens after the divorce. I also avoid many of the BW threads because I feel I can't relate directly to her situation, and occasionally voice my opinion where I see I can.
> Bottomline: Why on earth would anyone WANT women and men to be the same?


I do not want women and men *to be the same* but I do expect them both *to be treated similarly* in the case of infidelity. 

If the general consensus is to blame betrayed women for their spouses infidelity, then I think betrayed husband's should also be blamed for their wayward wives' infidelity.

If the general consensus is that a wayward wife should be doing all of the heavy lifting in the relationship for a betrayed husband to even consider reconciliation, then I think a wayward husband should be doing all of the heavy lifting in the relationship for a betrayed wife to even consider reconciliation.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I do not want women and men *to be the same* but I do expect them both *to be treated similarly* in the case of infidelity.
> 
> If the general consensus is to blame betrayed women for their spouses infidelity, then I think betrayed husband's should also be blamed for their wayward wives' infidelity.
> 
> If the general consensus is that a wayward wife should be doing all of the heavy lifting in the relationship for a betrayed husband to even consider reconciliation, then I think a wayward husband should be doing all of the heavy lifting in the relationship for a betrayed wife to even consider reconciliation.


I don't think there is any general consensus to blame the betrayed woman or man. Quite the contrary in general consensus...the affair is 100% the fault of the wayward.

The general consensus is that heavy lifting is always on the wayward.

The heavy lifting in affair recovery is not the same thing as making the effort to fix the overall state of the marriage, to which the betrayed often does have things they need to work on.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> *I don't think there is any general consensus to blame the betrayed woman or man. * Quite the contrary in general consensus...the affair is 100% the fault of the wayward.
> 
> The general consensus is that heavy lifting is always on the wayward.
> 
> The heavy lifting in affair recovery is not the same thing as making the effort to fix the overall state of the marriage, to which the betrayed often does have things they need to work on.


Thats just it.....I don't think there is a general consensus to blame the betrayed husband but there is absolute evidence to suggest that the same cannot be said for betrayed women on TAM. This thread is a good example. Betrayed women have also posted on either this thread or the other thread (cant recall which) that they were blamed for their husbands' affairs when they posted their story on TAM. 

I feel you are trying to gaslight me. Like I said before, I see the double standard with my own two eyes. The evidence is clear and present. Unless you can prove to me otherwise, I feel we'll have to disagree on this point. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## KaraBoo0723 (Oct 1, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Thats just it.....I don't think there is a general consensus to blame the betrayed husband but there is absolute evidence to suggest that the same cannot be said for betrayed women on TAM. This thread is a good example. Betrayed women have also posted on either this thread or the other thread (cant recall which) that they were blamed for their husbands' affairs when they posted their story on TAM.
> 
> I feel you are trying to gaslight me. Like I said before, I see the double standard with my own two eyes. The evidence is clear and present. Unless you can prove to me otherwise, I feel we'll have to disagree on this point.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk




Oh! This should move to the “agree to disagree” thread!!

(Sorry for the t/j, couldn’t resist the opportunity to inject humor/sarcasm/irony into this because it’s just getting kinda depressing  )


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



MattMatt said:


> Yeah, because we are just aching to hear the point of view of a cheater, right?
> 
> Actually, no. That's wrong. We aren't.





WilliamM said:


> And she has already taken more heat than she should have.
> 
> I just don?t see how some people can think anything one spouse does can possibly justify cheating. No matter what all an aggrieved spouse should do is say they are as mad as hell and will not take this any more, and file for divorce.
> 
> ...


Blunt and to the point with both posts.

Cheating CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED!

And no, we don't want to hear the BS that spews from the mouth of a cheater, because 99.9999% of the time it's nothing but lies.


----------



## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*

OP, i do so hope you come back. You should not be going at this alone.
You did not cause this, you are not at fault for what (HE) has chosen to do to you. He decided to cheat. He already has already emotionally and (likely/possibly) physically. 

You say you have not had a lot of sex recently...Well the way I look at this the street goes both ways. Trauma or not, if he wanted to have sex with you and was patient enough to woo you to a point of inducing you to make love to him i bet you would. But has HE given you that tenderness, that care? I suspect he might not have. He is just as guilty, no MORE guilty or sexual dysfunction within the marriage. 

The fact he is out of the house is good. You don't even have close to the truth. Now how you get the truth is to actually contact the other betrayed spouse. You got to blow this up because they are actively destroying lives, families and that needs to heal by shining the light of truth on it. Exposure is the answer. In the aftermath he will lose her, and she will lose him because they both will be too busy trying to pick up the pieces of their imploding lives. This is the time that you have the best opportunity to either Reconcile, or Divorce.

I can't advise on either divorce or Reconciliation. I have decided to reconcile with my spouse though he also had intent to cheat...he also carried on an emotional affair, and would have cheated on me had he been given the chance. 

I can tell you I am three years into my (recovery) and I'm not happy. Im still haunted by my husbands desire to step out of our marriage. We are each others one and only and i had thought he valued that...but now it's not special. But i digress, I just want to give you an idea on what Reconciliation can look like three years in. I still hurt... I still question...I wonder if i should just give us a pass to step out so that he finally gets what he wants...because it might be too much to expect fidelity. That is where my mind goes sometimes. I love him, and it kills me to think that someday he will cheat for real, and maybe i will too... But I take my emotions day by day. We have kids to raise, and a life to secure because the future is not certain. I dont just stay for love, thought it is there. Love is not enough.

Would your life be happier without going through the pain of reconciliation? Because i promise you in many respects divorce is a quicker healing. You will feel happier and better much quicker if you just pull the plug. 

To the others that say you have neglected him, I say to them that he seems to have neglected you. People think women turn cold and don't want sex later in life... I say to them that is BS. Sometimes busy moms get tired but often can and want to have sex once or twice a week. I am a very sexual person. Before the affair i had sex with my husband constantly but then i sensed that he was mechanical and not emotional during sex. He didn't kiss me anymore besides a peck...i 
went from initiating sex from time to time to never, and he just fondled and then humped and was done.... Who wants to have sex with someone who treats you as an object? Not me... 

Since discovery of the affair we can go as much as a month without sex... I am just not as interested. Affairs have a tendency to put a damper on the marital sex life once hysterical bonding ends. My husband is VERY attractive, and his general form is a turn on, but emotionally he sometimes does not do it for me. Collateral damage from the affair. 

People here have given you a tough time about the sexless marriage. And practically tell you that you have to have X amount of sex to make him satisfied so as not to cheat, i say BULL CRAP ON THAT. What has HE done to make you want to lie with him? Brining home the bacon is so cave man thinking i just want to scream. A woman wants more. We want love and consideration too, and not just feel like a wet hole for you to rut up against. Sheesh.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Rubix Cubed said:


> When you are talking about threads with hundreds of replies and you cherry pick out the 2 or 3 misogynistic replies from likely repeat offenders, because you are sensitive to that, and try to pass that off as "men of TAM ..." , of course you are going to have a skewed view of it. I could also cherry pick out the misandrists that regularly post because I would be more sensitive to that, and shade those whole threads with a misandrists view, but neither represent the big picture. As far as agreeing or disagreeing with YOU, I agree with you and have previously stated that.There is NO excuse to cheat, for anyone ... period,hard stop. I'm just trying to point out the variation in advice given and why they are perceived the way they are.


And realizing that saying "The affair was 100% totally his fault, but why weren't you having sex?" is not the same as telling her she is to blame for her husbands affair.


----------



## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Thats just it.....I don't think there is a general consensus to blame the betrayed husband but there is absolute evidence to suggest that the same cannot be said for betrayed women on TAM. This thread is a good example. Betrayed women have also posted on either this thread or the other thread (cant recall which) that they were blamed for their husbands' affairs when they posted their story on TAM.
> 
> I feel you are trying to gaslight me. Like I said before, I see the double standard with my own two eyes. The evidence is clear and present. Unless you can prove to me otherwise, I feel we'll have to disagree on this point.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I disagree. This goes both ways and I hate it.

Remember Gridcom

I think there a certain posters and even a moderator or two here 
who are little too quick to jump on a BS when they admit to
the slightest relationship imperfection.

Especially when a BS is in shock and questioning himself at
a highly stressful time.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> From the get go? No. However I would expect to be questioned about my contributions to the overall dynamic, and told that if I wasn't doing my share that it is not surprising she snapped. Doesn't make her hitting right, but although it is wrong, it is an outcome that happens with enough frequency, that it is predictable.
> 
> Again, these types of things where one person is 100% wrong in action do not usually happen in a vacuum, and certain things often lead to predictable results. If I am not meeting the needs of my wife, if she were to have an affair, she absolutely handled it in a 100% wrong manner, but at the same time, it should not surprise me as I absolutely would have contributed to a weakened marital environment, and when marriages get weak, bad things happen, including affairs.


Again samyeagar, my posts are not about the fairness of cheating. I keep getting pulled into that argument and I don't want to. 

My posts are describing what *I* observe as a double standard on the* type *of advice given to betrayed wives vs. betrayed husbands. You, rubix cubed, hershel and a few others do not see it. *I* as well as several others who have posted here do see it. I can go back and post every example I've seen and I'm sure you and others would still disagree with my interpretation. This is an agree to disagree situation that will not be resolved. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Again samyeagar, my posts are not about the fairness of cheating. I keep getting pulled into that argument and I don't want to.
> 
> My posts are describing what *I* observe as a double standard on the* type *of advice given to betrayed wives vs. betrayed husbands. You, rubix cubed, hershel and a few others do not see it. *I* as well as several others who have posted here do see it. I can go back and post every example I've seen and I'm sure you and others would still disagree with my interpretation. This is an agree to disagree situation that will not be resolved.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


There is nothing fair about cheating. Period.

Where I would acknowledge systemic bias in advice given is that the reactions and advice given to women seems more geared towards the presumption that a betrayed wife is more likely looking to reconcile, whereas a betrayed husband is not.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> *There is nothing fair about cheating. * Period.


Oh vey....."An unsurprising repercussion of a weakened marriage"

Better?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> Oh vey....."An unsurprising repercussion of a weakened marriage"
> 
> Better?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Geez...you can't even see when I was completely agreeing with you in that regard?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



samyeagar said:


> Geez...you can't even see when I was completely agreeing with you in that regard?


I meant the part where I mentioned "fairness" of cheating. I used wrong words, Instead I should have stated that I dont want to argue whether cheating is "an unsurprising repercussion of a weakened marriage". 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

My H told me once that he remembered early in our marriage laying in bed after we had been intimate and thinking how this was how it was always going to be. As soon as he said that all I could think was, really? My life then was 3 kids and 3 pregnancy losses, one of which was especially devastating. No family help, he was working mostly nights, and our finances were seriously strained. Do men seriously expect that there won't be times in a marriage where sex is not the first priority? I always thought marriage was supposed to be forever, through thick and thin. If there's a few years out of a lifetime together when sex diminishes, it seems that to many men that's the end of the marriage. Not worth staying, period. Why IS is so important all the time? I was pregnant when my H started cheating. I've learned that this is not so uncommon. Really??


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This is probably worth another thread to not threadjack here . For some people (men and women) sex and love are tightly intertwined - they can't have one without the other. Its a good discussion



blahfridge said:


> My H told me once that he remembered early in our marriage laying in bed after we had been intimate and thinking how this was how it was always going to be. As soon as he said that all I could think was, really? My life then was 3 kids and 3 pregnancy losses, one of which was especially devastating. No family help, he was working mostly nights, and our finances were seriously strained. Do men seriously expect that there won't be times in a marriage where sex is not the first priority? I always thought marriage was supposed to be forever, through thick and thin. If there's a few years out of a lifetime together when sex diminishes, it seems that to many men that's the end of the marriage. Not worth staying, period. Why IS is so important all the time? I was pregnant when my H started cheating. I've learned that this is not so uncommon. Really??


----------



## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

*Re: Found Condom*



veganmermaid said:


> I had a similar experience on another infidelity forum before I found TAM. (I’m a betrayed wife too.)
> 
> I think as a society we need to be questioning why the unmet need of sexual affection / intercourse is viewed as more important, more crucial, more of a deal-breaker, than any other kind of need. AND why we have developed the expectation that wives, girlfriends, fiancées “should” always be willing to meet their male partners’ sexual needs EVEN WHEN their needs (for companionship or quality time or nonsexual affection or WHATEVER) are going unmet.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. I am a male and married to an LD wife. I have never considered cheating on her even though I crave more sex. The reality is that she meets all of my other needs so dang well and I love her so much for it. The concepts I see spouted here that if a woman is LD she should be divorced or cheated on saddens me. LD women (and LD men) deserve love and faithfulness just as much as anyone else. Sex is not the only, or even the most important, part of a marriage. Yes, it can be important, but it's not everything.

I see many of the men here as biased against females in marriage and biased against marriage in general. Certainly not all men on Tam, but many of them. Women do catch much more hell in general around here than men. When a woman cheats, you never see guys asking if the BS was giving her enough sex. In fact, nobody questions how good of a husband he has been in any way. That's not true for women who get cheated on. Usually they are accused of not putting out enough or having a hand in causing it.

EleGirl has picked up on this pretty fast and I agree that there is definately a trend here. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

uhtred said:


> This is probably worth another thread to not threadjack here . For some people (men and women) sex and love are tightly intertwined - they can't have one without the other. Its a good discussion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, sorry. I just saw MattMatts post. Apologies all.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I do see what you're seeing but again it's usually on threads where the Betrayed Spouse is a woman who admits to not meeting her husband's needs. On this thread specifically, the first handful of posts were either blaming the OP for her husband's cheating or asking about the lack of sex - none addressed the evidence of infidelity (some were deleted my mods). Hell one of the last posts by the OP was actually finding text messages between her husband and another woman, and people are STILL blaming her.
> 
> I do not see it on threads where the betrayed spouse is a man who admits to not meeting his wife's needs. Those usually go straight to "she's a cheating liar", "find/document evidence", "get a lawyer", " expose to all and sundry", "kick her out of the house", etc.. Maybe after a 100 posts or so someone MAY bring up the unmet needs but that's not common.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I've seen it too. It really isn't a large number. There are many unbiased male posters.

But enough to make a slant.

I have a hard time posting on BW's threads.

I have serious anger towards men abandoning and betraying their wives and children.

When I do post, it is often to advise burning the bastard.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WilliamM said:


> And she has already taken more heat than she should have.
> 
> I just don?t see how some people can think anything one spouse does can possibly justify cheating. No matter what all an aggrieved spouse should do is say they are as mad as hell and will not take this any more, and file for divorce.
> 
> ...


Nope.

I haven't cheated yet only because I haven't found anyone worth the effort. 

Here's an analogy from a hardcore liberal. A withholding spouse is like a non working or underperforming union worker who basically can't get fired. Or can, at spectacular cost. 

They know, and will do their best to not be fired but not work either.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Found Condom*



TX-SC said:


> *I agree with this. I am a male and married to an LD wife.* I have never considered cheating on her even though I crave more sex. The reality is that she meets all of my other needs so dang well and I love her so much for it. The concepts I see spouted here that if a woman is LD she should be divorced or cheated on saddens me. LD women (and LD men) deserve love and faithfulness just as much as anyone else. *Sex is not the only, or even the most important, part of a marriage. Yes, it can be important, but it's not everything.*


Agree 100%... BUT... Lets be honest here. How many LD women turn it up to 11 when dating, before the marriage, only to dial it back to 2 once the rings are in place. Bait and Switch.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

blahfridge said:


> Oh, sorry. I just saw MattMatts post. Apologies all.


I split this thread off from the original thread so that the 'thread jack' could continue without impacting the OP of the original thread.

MattMatt's warning is on the original thread, not this one.

You can post on this new thread where I moved all of the thread-jack posts.


----------



## KaraBoo0723 (Oct 1, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



RWB said:


> Agree 100%... BUT... Lets be honest here. How many LD women turn it up to 11 when dating, before the marriage, only to dial it back to 2 once the rings are in place. Bait and Switch.




Same can be said for my experiences. I am super HD and both men I married seemed HD (or at least desired a frequency that I felt reasonable) while dating/engaged that then tanked after marriage (first due to serial cheating and PD, second when H stopped taking Levitra). After the hell of my first marriage I was very upfront and honest about my sex drive with anyone that had serious potential. I don’t think I’d necessarily call it bait and switch with my current H because there are a lot of factors involved but it still creates a sex-starved marriage.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Found Condom*



KaraBoo0723 said:


> Same can be said for my experiences. I am super HD and both men I married seemed HD (or at least desired a frequency that I felt reasonable) while dating/engaged that *then tanked after marriage (first due to serial cheating...*


Serial Cheating will definitely do that to a marriage.

Back in my early 40's my WW started cheating with her boss, a few years later with HS and college BFs. Serial Cheating went on for 7 years before I had concrete proof. 

During this period, we had heated arguments about how in-frequent (almost never) are sex life was. She always fell back on I'm just LD, exhausted from work, and every other convenient excuse. 

In reality, all lies, she had no issues with skipping work and driving 150 miles round trip to meet her AP in a hotel for a few hours of sex. :surprise:


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*

Lots of different situations. That certainly happens, but not clear what percentage of cases are like this. 



RWB said:


> Agree 100%... BUT... Lets be honest here. How many LD women turn it up to 11 when dating, before the marriage, only to dial it back to 2 once the rings are in place. Bait and Switch.


----------



## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

People often ask for what they want, not what they need. To vilify the cheater is easy. He/she is 100% responsible for the betrayal. I find that to be generally understood here and usually specifically stated.

Somehow, attempts at offering valuable insights to the BS become viewed as "blaming the victim." They are usually not.

The post in question is a perfect example. If her husband cheater (or even simply intended to) he is trash IMO. I can imagine no words that can excuse his actions. He intentionally violated his wife's trust and for me, that is absolutely unforgivable. However, there are some factors that likely contributed to increasing the risk that he would cheat. I find myself dumbfounded by how many women seem sincerely unaware of how damaging forcing a sexless relationship on their man can be. Most men understand this all too well. I see men here trying to share their perspective in an effort to help women who don't see the connection between continued sexual rejection and cheating. How many betrayed women wish they could go back in time and be more sexual with their man before he cheated? Maybe a similar number to the men who wish they had another chance to actually listen to their woman and be emotionally available to them. 

Relationships are hard work. Success requires sacrifice and generosity from both participants. People lose sight of this. When they do, they contribute to a deterioration of the bond that can set one or both on the path toward selfish, stupid and destructive behavior. Once again- the betrayer owns the responsibility for their actions but failure to seek insight on what might have prevented the deterioration in the first place is a near-guarantee of repeating history in the future. 

This board is a community of individuals who have widely varying perspectives. Any post is likely to solicit responses of similarly diverse perspective. Can the individual not sift through these responses and decide what (if anything) rings true for them? Who but the OP can decide what is the appropriate response or what was actually helpful? Can adults not ignore the input they don't want? Personally, I would rather have access to a wide array of opinions and process them myself.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I split this thread off from the original thread so that the 'thread jack' could continue without impacting the OP of the original thread.
> 
> MattMatt's warning is on the original thread, not this one.
> 
> You can post on this new thread where I moved all of the thread-jack posts.



THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPLITTING IT OFF!

After the OP deleted stuff and checked out, people just sort of thread drifted about if the OP had been driven off.

My perspective is that I am very pro-marriage, if the spouse cheated on wants to stay married, but it is really their choice, but a decision that should be discussed with their spouse before pulling the pin on the hand grenade and handing it to their spouse.

I also think that some posters deserve a little bit of "tough love" especially when they are part of the problem. Administering tough love in a way that someone can hear it, is sometimes hard to do.

Again, thanks for splitting the thread.


----------



## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



RWB said:


> Agree 100%... BUT... Lets be honest here. How many LD women turn it up to 11 when dating, before the marriage, only to dial it back to 2 once the rings are in place. Bait and Switch.


A bait and switch implies that it was deliberate and I really doubt that's the case in most situations. A lessened desire for sex as a H or wife settles into marriage isn't something one plans out. Every long-term relationship, whether married or not, has arches, valleys, and peaks. The busyness of life with family and work obligations just takes over sometimes and, as someone else posted, people DO change. I know I have over the past few decades and so has my H. Love, loyalty and communication should be the constant in a marriage, even if attitudes or interests of either spouse changes. 

If sex is an issue for one spouse then a compromise should be reached that is acceptable to both, and what's wrong with sometimes graciously providing sexual relief to a H without great desire on the part of the W? Bugs me when I see the posts by H who won't accept anything less than being passionately wanted by their wife ALL THE TIME. 

It smacks of childishness to me. Yes, I know I'm gonna catch some grief for that.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

*Re: Found Condom*



blahfridge said:


> *A bait and switch* implies that it was deliberate and I really doubt that's the case in most situations. *A lessened desire for sex as a H or wife settles into marriage isn't something one plans out*. Every long-term relationship, whether married or not, has arches, valleys, and peaks. The busyness of life with family and work obligations just takes over sometimes and, as someone else posted, *people DO change*. I know I have over the past few decades and so has my H. Love, loyalty and communication should be the constant in a marriage, even if attitudes or interests of either spouse changes.
> 
> If sex is an issue for one spouse then a compromise should be reached that is acceptable to both, and what's wrong with sometimes graciously providing sexual relief to a H without great desire on the part of the W? Bugs me when I see the posts by H who won't accept anything less than being passionately wanted by their wife ALL THE TIME.
> 
> It smacks of childishness to me. Yes, I know I'm gonna catch some grief for that.


My wife has always had aversion to giving and receiving oral sex. Prior to marriage we discussed this several times. My wife promised me that it was too intimate prior to marriage, but it would be something we did after marriage. After marriage, it was disgusting. It was a problem early in our marriage. She told me she was saving it and other kinky stuff for later in our marriage to keep the flames of passion alive.

40 years later in sex therapy, my wife confessed that yes she had promised me oral sex, but at the time she really thought that after marriage she would change and be more willing to do things for me, but she could just not get over her revulsion to those sex acts.

I honestly believe that in my wife's mind, it was not bait and switch. I think she really believed that as her love for her husband grew over time, she would be able to give and receive oral sex. Unfortunately the bait and switch was her inability to keep her promises that she intended to keep. Unfortunately, I was one of the victims of her not being able to keep her promise to herself. She does feel guilty about it, so she too is a victim of her inability to change and keep her promise.

While I would still love to do that, I have totally given up and have no expectation of her ever being able to share that part of sex with me.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Ok here’s an idea. Every cheater has a reason(s) they cheated. What they were lacking in the marriage that “made” them cheat:

Lack of attention
Lack of sex
Lack of love
Lack of quality time
Lack of intimacy outside of sex
Lack of similar interests
Spouse treated them poorly
Spouse worked too much
Spouse paid more attention to the kids/friends/dog

The list can go on, those are just common “reasons”.

So if the WS has it so bad, they should just leave. BEFORE they cheat. But they rarely do. They cheat and then they want to stay together. Why don’t they leave if they’re so unhappy?

Because they’re too scared to. There are things that are lacking in the relationship, most likely that they’ve brought up to their spouse ad nauseum and the spouse has done nothing about it either because they don’t care to, or because they don’t see it as an issue or they are too stubborn to change or they have unhappiness of their own with their spouse so they don’t change because why should they If the other one doesn’t either???

So then, occasionally, one cheats. Because suddenly the needs they weren’t getting fulfilled are being fulfilled - by someone else. 9 times out of 10 that other person isn’t the whole package either - they’re just filling the gaps. The wayward is in a fog thinking that this other person “gets them” and must be their soul mate because they get along so well and that other person fills this gap that has been missing for so long that the spouse has had no interest to fill. So not only are the waywards needs now getting met, there’s probably resentment there too which tricks them into thinking they deserve to do these things and/or they don’t care about their betrayeds feelings. 

Then they get caught. Or the guilt gets them. Or they know they’ve done wrong. And suddenly they’re faced with losing the person that wasn’t fulfilling their needs and they realize that overall they don’t want to lose the whole package that is their spouse - it was just nice to get their needs met, but suddenly those needs don’t mean as much as their other comforts with their spouse - home, children, marriage, family, cars, etc. and faved with losing them and that, the good things come back and they crash into it like a train wreck.

IMO? Cheating is a form of selfishness, a lot of times the result of resentment - probably long building resentment - and cowardice because the WS WANTS those things they’re lacking, but they don’t want to give up the things they DO love and the comforts of their life.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I am mostly tough on men (when giving advice) and spend 95% of the time writing about how much more a man can do within the marriage, to increase the odds of having a better marriage, more sex, more everything etc (partly because I felt that being more pro-active worked well in my marriage). And I don’t often comment on women’s issues as much since I don’t always feel 'qualified' to give useful advice (due to the affliction of having a penis).

However with regards to the ‘found condom’ thread, it seems to me there were many things going on at the same time that became conflated:

1. Most of the responses asking for clarification ‘why there was no sex/intimacy’ in the marriage were made in fact by female posters first until a moderator jumped in to say that anyone appearing to 'blame the victim' is going to get banned. This was in response to the observation that women get driven away from TAM because they don’t get unbiased enough advice from men.

2. Asking for clarification why there is no sex/intimacy (something that OP mentioned herself in her opening post, without anyone asking or assuming) is IMO *not the same* as ‘blaming the victim’ for spouse’s cheating. I can perhaps understand that the form in how those questions are sometimes phrased could be better since asking those questions right off the bat might appear insensitive. There clearly was a balance of responses though: the majority saying that there were probably more condoms than the unused one or that he was going to cheat, no matter what and perhaps just couldn't 'get lucky' this time.

3. People come to TAM to hear a range of opinions and IMO censoring opinions too harshly to make them more uniform / ‘less biased’ might in fact achieve the opposite. Then TAM might as well nominate one person of choice to voice The Common Opinion (on behalf of the TAM community) and then the issue should go away. 

4. Regarding ‘biased’ or ‘one-sided’ advice: for both women and men (who were betrayed) to receive the the same advice and type of questioning assumes that they would all cheat for exactly the same reasons. Looking at statistical averages, that is just not the case. The top most common reason why a guy cheats is due to the fact that there is no or little sex in the marriage (there are exceptions, for example when the guy is just plain stupid and has no regard for anyone but himself). The top most common reason why women cheat is because the wife feels that husband is not meeting her emotional needs (again, there are exceptions). One has something to do with physical reasons the other are emotional reasons: a vast difference. Affairs are also more common as a result among women rather than a ONS (which is more common among men, according to statistics). Note: *this is not at all a comparison whether one reason is more valid than the other, just that there are different reasons* and forcing the conversations to go the same way would seem counter-productive in light of this, I would have thought. In fact I would argue that emotional commitment is in many ways more important than physical commitment in a marriage. But a successful marriage cannot really function with just one, without the other. Physical reasons are just easier to point out since they are more obvious.

The reasons why men and women cheat - INSIDER

PS: Please do feel free to edit my post if there is something in it that wasn’t phrased well and that may come across the wrong way (breaking a rule I haven’t read about) that I may have accidentally overlooked: my intention is not to upset anyone & I don’t wish to get banned again. I try to frame my posts in the most unbiased, civilised and honest way possible.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Leaving is easy if all your possessions fit in your '89 Ford Tempo and kids aren't your problem.

It's an awfully more complicated issue otherwise and in SOME (*) cases you reward undesired behavior. Especially if you're a man married to a non working woman. Even with no alimony, what incentive does she have to improve if she gets half the assets, child support galore, etc? If you live in a reasonable state it's ok, but not all states are.

(*) I'm not talking legit marital issues. But if your marriage is iffy and you stand to win even more by not fixing it... 

People take the easy way out. Husband slighted you? Withhold till the cows come home. Wife not putting out? Seek elsewhere. Pity that the easy answers aren't always the best answers.


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## GuacaColey (Sep 19, 2017)

john117 said:


> Nope.
> 
> I haven't cheated yet only because I haven't found anyone worth the effort.
> 
> ...




This is fantastic, Sir. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



blahfridge said:


> A bait and switch implies that it was deliberate and I really doubt that's the case in most situations. A lessened desire for sex as a H or wife settles into marriage isn't something one plans out. Every long-term relationship, whether married or not, has arches, valleys, and peaks. The busyness of life with family and work obligations just takes over sometimes and, as someone else posted, people DO change. I know I have over the past few decades and so has my H. Love, loyalty and communication should be the constant in a marriage, even if attitudes or interests of either spouse changes.
> 
> If sex is an issue for one spouse then a compromise should be reached that is acceptable to both, and what's wrong with sometimes graciously providing sexual relief to a H without great desire on the part of the W? Bugs me when I see the posts by H who won't accept anything less than being passionately wanted by their wife ALL THE TIME.
> 
> It smacks of childishness to me. Yes, I know I'm gonna catch some grief for that.


Yeah, I could passionately WANT and LUST after my H all the time if he gave me some undivided attention for more than 1 hour a week and was willing to put me first instead of work, clients and golf. It works both ways. The older I am the more I see that many woman are jaded due to neglect, yet the H expects her to be passionate about him. My GR (dog) gives me more attention, LOL.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



aine said:


> Yeah, I could passionately WANT and LUST after my H all the time if he gave me some undivided attention for more than 1 hour a week and was willing to put me first instead of work, clients and golf. It works both ways. The older I am the more I see that many woman are jaded due to neglect, yet the H expects her to be passionate about him. My GR (dog) gives me more attention, LOL.


Neglect is poison for any relationship, but one must be careful to make consistent and reasonable demands. Some things are mutually exclusive. Lots of money does not typically walk hand-in-hand with putting family first. In order for balance to be struck, compromise and adjustment of expectations is required. 

Dogs are great, but they don't have to make the mortgage payment.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



zookeeper said:


> Neglect is poison for any relationship, but one must be careful to make consistent and reasonable demands. Some things are mutually exclusive. Lots of money does not typically walk hand-in-hand with putting family first. * In order for balance to be struck, compromise and adjustment of expectations is required. *
> 
> Dogs are great, but they don't have to make the mortgage payment.


If my H even once cleaned out the garage, I think I'd collapse from the shock. He knows that I can't stand the clutter and mess in the house, that it causes me stress and is even bad for my health (I am highly allergic to dust mites). Instead, he does the little things around the house that he feels comfortable doing - like the dishes, repairing a leaky sink, changing the oil on the car - and he thinks that's sufficient. It's not worth it to him to cause HIMSELF stress by doing some things that would alleviate my stress and improve our relationship. I haven't left him yet, so why should he? My consistent and reasonable demands ceased a long time ago. I accept that he's never going to care enough to change and I have much to lose by leaving, at least right now. Confirmation of John117's point.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



blahfridge said:


> If my H even once cleaned out the garage, I think I'd collapse from the shock. He knows that I can't stand the clutter and mess in the house, that it causes me stress and is even bad for my health (I am highly allergic to dust mites). Instead, he does the little things around the house that he feels comfortable doing - like the dishes, repairing a leaky sink, changing the oil on the car - and he thinks that's sufficient. It's not worth it to him to cause HIMSELF stress by doing some things that would alleviate my stress and improve our relationship. I haven't left him yet, so why should he? My consistent and reasonable demands ceased a long time ago. I accept that he's never going to care enough to change and I have much to lose by leaving, at least right now. Confirmation of John117's point.


My post assumes that both parties actually care for and respect each other. If the only thing holding your marriage together is the threat of financial loss, it is likely far beyond recovery at this point.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



zookeeper said:


> Neglect is poison for any relationship, but one must be careful to make consistent and reasonable demands. Some things are mutually exclusive. Lots of money does not typically walk hand-in-hand with putting family first. *In order for balance to be struck, compromise and adjustment of expectations is required. *
> 
> Dogs are great, but they don't have to make the mortgage payment.


I think your statement about adjusting expectations is spot on but not the way I think you mean. It's important to recognize that the expectations for many modern women may be very different than generations past. In today's modern world, many women are capable of supporting themselves. Money is no longer a driving need for them. I know it's not for me and the women in my social circles. However, undivided attention, quality time, and companionship is now a top need, superceding financial needs. 

My husband was raised to think being the provider was the most important need he could meet in marriage. Not quality time. Not undivided attention. Not companionship. Financial support. He never really *listened* to what I was saying and would say I was impossible to satisfy because my needs did not line up with what he was taught to believe. My demands were very simple and very reasonable but as @blahfridge said, he wanted to stick with whatever was most comfortable for him. @aine's husband puts his clients and work first because to go outside of his comfort zone to meet @aine's "real" needs would require work on his part. He'd have to adjust his expectations in order to break lifelong habits. It's hard to do.


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## KaraBoo0723 (Oct 1, 2016)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I think your statement about adjusting expectations is spot on but not the way I think you mean. It's important to recognize that the expectations for many modern women may be very different than generations past. In today's modern world, many women are capable of supporting themselves. Money is no longer a driving need for them. I know it's not for me and the women in my social circles. However, undivided attention, quality time, and companionship is now a top need, superceding financial needs.
> 
> My husband was raised to think being the provider was the most important need he could meet in marriage. Not quality time. Not undivided attention. Not companionship. Financial support. He never really *listened* to what I was saying and would say I was impossible to satisfy because my needs did not line up with what he was taught to believe. My demands were very simple and very reasonable but as @blahfridge said, he wanted to stick with whatever was most comfortable for him. @aine's husband puts his clients and work first because to go outside of his comfort zone to meet @aine's "real" needs would require work on his part. He'd have to adjust his expectations in order to break lifelong habits. It's hard to do.




The inability or refusal to consider that what my H intends as loving behavior is not actually what I perceive or view as loving behavior has been the fundamental source of frustration, hurt feelings and resentment in our relationship. I’m requiring that we read both His Needs, Her Needs and Five Love Languages TOGETHER, as a couple, in what may end up as my final attempt to avoid closing myself completely off to him emotionally. The importance of this topic cannot be emphasized enough IMO.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



zookeeper said:


> Neglect is poison for any relationship, *but one must be careful to make consistent and reasonable demands.* Some things are mutually exclusive. Lots of money does not typically walk hand-in-hand with putting family first. In order for balance to be struck, compromise and adjustment of expectations is required.
> 
> Dogs are great, but they don't have to make the mortgage payment.


I am incredibly low maintenance, I have my own job, money, I pay for everything for myself, including my car, my trips, my own clothes, everything, he only pays for OUR kids and the house we live in. He is high maintenance, loves expensive clothes, gadgets, sports, etc. 
So when it comes to consistent and reasonable demands I am not sure what you mean, if it means a pat on the ass now and again, or an hr over coffee, and a nice meal out then I guess my demands are very reasonable. He is the one who wants and needs the lifestyle, I do not, in fact I think downsizing would be a good idea, more time, less stress.............


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



Lila said:


> I think your statement about adjusting expectations is spot on but not the way I think you mean. It's important to recognize that the expectations for many modern women may be very different than generations past. In today's modern world, many women are capable of supporting themselves. Money is no longer a driving need for them. I know it's not for me and the women in my social circles. However, undivided attention, quality time, and companionship is now a top need, superceding financial needs.
> 
> My husband was raised to think being the provider was the most important need he could meet in marriage. Not quality time. Not undivided attention. Not companionship. Financial support. He never really *listened* to what I was saying and would say I was impossible to satisfy because my needs did not line up with what he was taught to believe. My demands were very simple and very reasonable but as @blahfridge said, he wanted to stick with whatever was most comfortable for him. @aine's husband puts his clients and work first because to go outside of his comfort zone to meet @aine's "real" needs would require work on his part. He'd have to adjust his expectations in order to break lifelong habits. It's hard to do.


I find that the key behaviors to build and maintain a healthy relationship are gender neutral. Some of the details become gender specific, but the philosophies are not. I have seen no evidence to convince me that men or women have changed in regard to these basic needs. 

My post was strictly regarding our own expectations. If we don't first make sure our expectations are realistic, it is highly doubtful our partner will be able to meet them. If a non-working wife expects her working husband to earn enough money for a McMansion, expensive vacations and a new Benz SUV every year but also wants him to blow-off work to provide her with unfettered attention on a regular basis, these are mutually exclusive things for most employees. It's not really different from a man expecting his SAH wife to single-handedly take care of the children, keep the home spotless and make a great dinner every night while also expecting her to enthusiastically bang his brains out like a porn star every night. These things generally don't exist together. Compromise is key, but without realistic expectations from the start compromise is largely impossible. There is a scene in Cool Hand Luke in which one guard makes Luke dig a hole and then another comes by to make him put the dirt back. The go back and forth all day until Luke finally breaks. It's a good illustration.

Before you even consider what your partner must do, you must consider if what you want is reasonable or even possible. A loving partner will make every effort to meet a reasonable need. That same loving partner will become resentful and angry when continually confronted with unreasonable demands. It can really damage one's self-esteem to repeatedly them how they have failed at a task they never had a chance to win in the first place.

If you have done self-reflection and believe that your demands are reasonable, then your husband's refusal to meet them is an indication of dysfunction. Or perhaps a misconception on your part about what he is capable of providing. We must also consider that your husband may have his own driving needs that are incompatible with yours. If he takes his identity from career and financial success, his drive to work so much really has nothing to do with your needs. If it does (at least in part) meet some of your needs that is purely incidental. Some people are simply incompatible. Unless one or both is willing to sacrifice their own needs to generously meet the other's, the relationship suffers.

Let's also look at one of your statements specifically. You wrote, "Money is no longer a driving need for them. I know it's not for me and the women in my social circles. However, undivided attention, quality time, and companionship is now a top need, superceding financial needs." This suggests that at one time, money was in fact a driving need. A need that your husband presumably did his part to provide. Though your needs have shifted, it may be that his behaviors have become so ingrained that he struggles to change. He may need some help to make a gradual change of course in his behavior, assuming that money is no longer a driving need for him. 

There are many things I would like from my wife, but she suffers from severe depression and other health issues. I try very hard to ensure that my expectations are reasonable before I seek their fulfillment. She does her best and I can see how things that seem so simple for most people are Herculean tasks for her. She makes the effort, and that goes a long way with me. She sometimes does the opposite of what I want, but I know her intention is pure. I'm not entirely sure what the long-term future holds for us. I am running at a deficit and have been for a long time. She has improved and I find that encouraging. I love her enough that I will continue to run with this imbalance for the foreseeable future. Without that love it would be pointless to stay together. I've come to see that I am very lucky despite the struggles of being married to someone who is mentally ill. Between the accounts I read here and what I see around me very day, I am left with the conclusion that a startling percent of marriages are deficient in love, respect, caring and true commitment. I have these. 

Some needs are deal-breakers. I guess my wife meets mine or we would have split up. Since she does, why would I give my wife hell about the ones she can't? I'm not suggesting that anyone's expectations are right or wrong, merely that it is our responsibility to vet them.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

*Re: Found Condom*



aine said:


> I am incredibly low maintenance, I have my own job, money, I pay for everything for myself, including my car, my trips, my own clothes, everything, he only pays for OUR kids and the house we live in. He is high maintenance, loves expensive clothes, gadgets, sports, etc.
> So when it comes to consistent and reasonable demands I am not sure what you mean, if it means a pat on the ass now and again, or an hr over coffee, and a nice meal out then I guess my demands are very reasonable. He is the one who wants and needs the lifestyle, I do not, in fact I think downsizing would be a good idea, more time, less stress.............


Sounds to me like you know exactly what I mean. You explained that right here. 

From your account, it would seem that your husband may not understand. Or maybe he does but is unwilling/unable to give you what you want. If he does not recognize your unmet need as a problem, you have a decision to make. Learn to live with it or take action to change your circumstance. 

Some people simply do not have a generous nature and will make demands while never giving back. If your husband it truly generous and caring, he will find a way to give you the attention you need even if he must make a sacrifice to do so - provided he understands your need.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: Found Condom*



zookeeper said:


> My post was strictly regarding our own expectations. If we don't first make sure our expectations are realistic, it is highly doubtful our partner will be able to meet them..... Compromise is key, but without realistic expectations from the start compromise is largely impossible.......Before you even consider what your partner must do, you must consider if what you want is reasonable or even possible. A loving partner will make every effort to meet a reasonable need. That same loving partner will become resentful and angry when continually confronted with unreasonable demands. It can really damage one's self-esteem to repeatedly them how they have failed at a task they never had a chance to win in the first place.


I'm glad you clarified your position zookeeper. I do agree that we should have reasonable expectations. 



zookeeper said:


> If you have done self-reflection and believe that your demands are reasonable, then your husband's refusal to meet them is an indication of dysfunction. Or perhaps a misconception on your part about what he is capable of providing. We must also consider that your husband may have his own driving needs that are incompatible with yours. If he takes his identity from career and financial success, his drive to work so much really has nothing to do with your needs. If it does (at least in part) meet some of your needs that is purely incidental. Some people are simply incompatible. Unless one or both is willing to sacrifice their own needs to generously meet the other's, the relationship suffers.


Certainly true. I think that's why the threat of divorce was the only thing that really worked. And really it was me disconnecting emotionally and cutting off his needs that sealed the deal. It was a "you don't know what you've got until it's gone" situation. 



zookeeper said:


> Let's also look at one of your statements specifically. You wrote, "Money is no longer a driving need for them. I know it's not for me and the women in my social circles. However, undivided attention, quality time, and companionship is now a top need, superceding financial needs." This suggests that at one time, money was in fact a driving need. A need that your husband presumably did his part to provide. Though your needs have shifted, it may be that his behaviors have become so ingrained that he struggles to change. He may need some help to make a gradual change of course in his behavior, assuming that money is no longer a driving need for him.


What I meant was that I and the women in my circle of friends do not have provider needs as compared to previous generations. We all have successful careers (always have), and several are the primary income earners (SAHD or as close to it for husbands).

For my part, I did let his deprioritizing me go for a long time... Until I didn't. 



zookeeper said:


> There are many things I would like from my wife, but she suffers from severe depression and other health issues. I try very hard to ensure that my expectations are reasonable before I seek their fulfillment. She does her best and I can see how things that seem so simple for most people are Herculean tasks for her. She makes the effort, and that goes a long way with me. She sometimes does the opposite of what I want, but I know her intention is pure. I'm not entirely sure what the long-term future holds for us. I am running at a deficit and have been for a long time. She has improved and I find that encouraging. I love her enough that I will continue to run with this imbalance for the foreseeable future. Without that love it would be pointless to stay together. I've come to see that I am very lucky despite the struggles of being married to someone who is mentally ill. Between the accounts I read here and what I see around me very day, I am left with the conclusion that a startling percent of marriages are deficient in love, respect, caring and true commitment. I have these.
> 
> Some needs are deal-breakers. I guess my wife meets mine or we would have split up. Since she does, why would I give my wife hell about the ones she can't? I'm not suggesting that anyone's expectations are right or wrong, merely that it is our responsibility to vet them.


I'm sorry to hear about your wife's depression. I know dealing with mentally ill partners can take a toll on whole families. It's good that you continue to look at your relationship in a hopeful way. It is powerful thinking and the best way to lead a positive life. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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