# The beginning stages



## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Here goes nothing...

First, some background. My wife and I have been together for about 6-1/2 years and married for just over 3 years. We just had our first child 8 months ago. I have been married once before, and this is her first marriage.

Recently, I became aware of some very inappropriate messaging between my wife (I'll call her "S") and a male friend of hers ("R"). S has known R for a few years, predating our relationship. They originally met when R was having an extramarital affair with one of S's friends. So clearly R has a history of being unfaithful. S, however, was in a 5 year long relationship which ended abruptly and her boyfriend was married within a few months of that ending, which suggested to her that he may have been cheating on her.

My previous marriage also ended when my ex-wife began cheating on me, habitually. To top it off, it wasn't just once. But the first affair she had started very much the same way this is starting to take shape. First it was long distance "flirting", then it was talk about wanting to actually engage in sex, then eventually it became a real affair. My current situation is eerily reminiscent of that one.

Here's my dilemma: My current wife, S, exchanges dirty texts with R. And it's not just flirting, it's things like them discussing their desire to visit each other and have sex. R lives halfway across the country. So, to my knowledge, they've never engaged in sex, it's all been talk about it. But as I say, there's been a specific intent of doing so if one of them ever gets the chance to travel to the other's location. Also, I know that S has sent R nude photos of herself in the past, and semi-nude photos recently. But of course, I only know all of this because I've checked her text messages on her phone and seen them.

So, I guess you could say I was checking up on her, but what I found is definitely not acceptable. In my defense, I didn't always check up on her, only recently. And that's only because there were some suspicious signs from her.

I don't want to just outright confront her about this, because I'm afraid her response will be to just take better measures to hide it, not to stop it. I have alluded to it, and I know from her texts that at one point she believed I was suspicious and recommended they stop "flirting" (as she calls it), but that lasted only 2 days and she's given him the go ahead to flirt again.

I seriously am at a loss here. I know that if I bring up that I've looked at her texts, that will cause more issues than it solves. And as I said, I want it to stop, not just become more hidden.

So... any thoughts from the community?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I don't see how you'd need any more evidence to get her to admit the EA

Forward all those texts/pics to yourself and confront her with them.

Tell her she must go NC with R and never communicate with him again.
Tell her you want access to all electronic devices and social media.

Keep an eye on her


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Well, let's see. Obviously your wife would never send texts and messages to another man of such a nature that she would not mind her husband looking at? And she would not have any objection to those messages being shared with the wife/girl friend of R? Or with anyone else?

Exposure of a tawdry affair is like a strong light aimed at c**kroaches. See them panic and run around...


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Well, let's see. Obviously your wife would never send texts and messages to another man of such a nature that she would not mind her husband looking at? And she would not have any objection to those messages being shared with the wife/girl friend of R? Or with anyone else?
> 
> Exposure of a tawdry affair is like a strong light aimed at c**kroaches. See them panic and run around...


Oh yes.

Ask your wife if R has a girl/wife and what her contact info is.

Forward those texts/pics to her and show her what her man has been up to.

This isn't just a vengeful act.
It's a better guarantee they won't contact each other again.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

Confront, and demand transparency. Continue to monitor, and insist on counseling.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

tacoma said:


> Oh yes.
> 
> Ask your wife if R has a girl/wife and what her contact info is.
> 
> ...


I do know that R has a girl (not sure if they're actually married though). I also know that he's been married three times prior to the current girl, and as I said, he's cheated on at least one of those wives with S's friend. Of course, I have no idea if his current girl is aware of that. And I do not have, and I don't think my wife has, the contact info for her.

As I said, my big concern at this point is that if I confront her, rather than it stopping, she'll just try to hide it more carefully.

And, of course, there's also the inevitable "Why were you spying on me?" argument. I agree that any married person should never send a single text/email/message that they would not want their spouse to be aware of. But that doesn't change the fact that these situations often become more about the "lack of trust" that lead to the spying, rather than the results themselves.

I know that may sound like I'm making excuses, but believe me I'm not. I'm just at a loss for a good way to proceed and thought I'd seek some input from others. I appreciate the suggestions you've both made, so far.


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

I would forward a nude one to your phone and then send it to her. That should wake her up. If my husband did that to me, I would come clean right there. The fact that she doesn't delete stuff like that makes me wonder if she wants to get caught. You have a lot more self restraint than me. I could never hold that in.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

You don't have to defend your checking up on her, try to and she has already got you. 

You cannot get around the facts nor the remedy. Full transparency, plus counseling. Total access to everything always. 

Be prepared for the threats of divorce. HINT: THE only response is to show her the door. Treat her like she is a 12 year old you just found with a bag of crack. She must be willing to search and seizure of all communications and computing devices at any time.

Edited for auto correct errors


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

pdxuncertain said:


> I do know that R has a girl (not sure if they're actually married though). I also know that he's been married three times prior to the current girl, and as I said, he's cheated on at least one of those wives with S's friend. Of course, I have no idea if his current girl is aware of that. And I do not have, and I don't think my wife has, the contact info for her.


Find it, have your wife help you find it.
It'd be a great test of her remorse and desire to repair your marriage.


> As I said, my big concern at this point is that if I confront her, rather than it stopping, she'll just try to hide it more carefully.


I understood that and that's why I think you should put a little effort in finding R's girl because exposing to her will go farther towards shutting down their affair than ANY OTHER SINGLE THING YOU CAN DO.



> And, of course, there's also the inevitable "Why were you spying on me?" argument.


-Because you're not trustworthy.
-Because I've invested my whole ****ing life into a cheating woman and it's made me a tad bit insecure.
-Because anyone entitled enough to ask me about "spying" after I just busted her in the midst of an affair is a clinical narcissist and can't be left to her own devices.



> .... "lack of trust" that lead to the spying, rather than the results themselves.


Not true, if I busted my wife fooling around she'd never say a word about it it wouldn't be an issue because that **** doesn't exist in my marriage.
She might cheat on me but she knows she can't justify it if she did.
We've not allowed it into the foundation of our relationship.
There is no "SECRECY" in marriage.
Something for you to think about for the future.

If she does bring it up you're going to have a bad time anyway because she obviously values you little but if you like I can think of twenty more answers like those I left above.



> I know that may sound like I'm making excuses, but believe me I'm not. I'm just at a loss for a good way to proceed and thought I'd seek some input from others. I appreciate the suggestions you've both made, so far.


Proceed like Clint ****ing Eastwood in A Fistful of Dollars and lay down the law.

You cannot "nice" your way out of this.
If you even attempt to you'll be guaranteeing failure.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

You need to sit down with her and have a general discussion about infidelity and that the consequences will be an immediate divorce. Make it clear to her what the consequences will be to her and her life if she engages in cheating.


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

Sorry you are here, but I think you are at a very advantageous position as you are pretty sure that the affair hasn't gone physical yet, and you have documented evidence of the EA. Thats a hell of a lot more than many of us had/have at the point of realisation.

I suggest taking backups of all the evidence firstly. Otherwise you KNOW it will be deleted.

The evidence you have renders any complaint about her privacy irrelevant, so I wouldn't worry too much about that as you will win any 'moral highground' with any of this.

If you really want something to counter with, just tell the truth - her behaviour made you question if something was going on, so you checked her phone in order to prove that nothing was happening and you found exactly the opposite.

The thing is....if you manage to kill the affair dead in its tracks NOW and your W commits to your relationship then you have a decent chance of working through whatever your issues are and having a stronger marriage in the future (although I won't underestimate how hard the process will be).

If you DON'T confront her with the evidence and bring this all to a head, and it does turn physical, then there may be no way back. This should be your motivation.

In terms of how to confront effectively, that will be for others here to advise on - but the one thing I have learned from reading many many threads on here, is that half-assing it will only get you trickle-truthed and force the affair underground, so you need to make sure any confrontation is done properly.

I would also recommend spending a few hours reading other similar threads on here, as you will understand how this sort of betrayal often follows a 'script' and this will help you.

Good luck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You could try this:

Set up an email account with a rare web-based free mail provider. One that you do NOT use.

Use a name like: Cheaterhater.

Send your wife and you and perhaps the OM an email saying: "XXXX, you are cheating with Y. Shame on you! You know that he cheated on xxxx. He also cheated on a friend of mine. Now he is getting you to cheat on your husband! Enough is enough! I have sent a copy of this email to your poor husband so now he knows how unfaithful you are. If you are lucky, he'll forgive you. If not, he'll throw you out."

Send that email. Then delete the account.


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> You could try this:
> 
> Set up an email account with a rare web-based free mail provider. One that you do NOT use.
> 
> ...


That was great advice you gave me Matt, and I did it - although haven't had cause to pull out the email yet!


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Flygirl said:


> The fact that she doesn't delete stuff like that makes me wonder if she wants to get caught.


I considered that myself. She does have her phone set up so that older messages auto delete themselves. I don't know, maybe she assumed that anything incriminating would fall off without being caught. As soon as I became aware of the true nature of their texts, I began to take pics of the screen showing the full conversation.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

frozen said:


> Be prepared for the threats of divorce. HINT: THE only response is to show her the door.


This is where I get cold feet. I KNOW that's the rational reaction. The problem is this: My ex-wife and I had a son at the time of our divorce. Despite ensuring that my parental rights were laid out quite clearly in the divorce, my ex actually disappeared and went into hiding with our son. Which means I never got to be a father to him. She was helped by some friends of hers, and used restraining orders under false pretenses to get the law on her side.

Now, my current wife does not seem to be anywhere near as vindictive a person as my ex, but having gone through that once leaves me hesitant to risk it again with my new daughter. That's not to say that I would stay in a crap marriage, it's just that if I were to proceed to divorce, I'd need to have my ass covered much better than it was in my first divorce.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

bryanp said:


> You need to sit down with her and have a general discussion about infidelity and that the consequences will be an immediate divorce. Make it clear to her what the consequences will be to her and her life if she engages in cheating.


I actually did this very thing this past Friday. I made my thoughts on infidelity and its consequences abundantly clear. She claimed she understood. It was just after this convo that she told the OM that they should "stop for a while". Then last night she gave him the "all clear" to resume matters. I guess she thinks I was just being paranoid or something and that it's blown over.


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

pdxuncertain said:


> This is where I get cold feet. I KNOW that's the rational reaction. The problem is this: My ex-wife and I had a son at the time of our divorce. Despite ensuring that my parental rights were laid out quite clearly in the divorce, my ex actually disappeared and went into hiding with our son. Which means I never got to be a father to him. She was helped by some friends of hers, and used restraining orders under false pretenses to get the law on her side.
> 
> Now, my current wife does not seem to be anywhere near as vindictive a person as my ex, but having gone through that once leaves me hesitant to risk it again with my new daughter. That's not to say that I would stay in a crap marriage, it's just that if I were to proceed to divorce, I'd need to have my ass covered much better than it was in my first divorce.


Divorces are not terribly quick things, so given that this is an EA and not a PA then I think if there was to be a reconciliation it would sort itself out ahead of it actually being processed. If it isn't, then you have plenty of time to plan how you deal with the situation and protect yourself.

To be honest though, because it hasn't gone physical, I think its more likely that your W will worry that YOU will divorce, especially if you put that thought in her head at the time of confrontation.

She is not your ex-wife, so I wouldn't try to attribute any nutso behaviour from her onto your new wife. Not yet anyway.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> You could try this:
> 
> Set up an email account with a rare web-based free mail provider. One that you do NOT use.
> 
> ...


That's definitely a clever idea. Of course, I doubt that anyone else knows about it, so that seems like it's the same as directly confronting her. Who else would have any way of knowing?

The more I talk about this whole matter, the more I realize that it sounds like I'm making excuses. And I'm so NOT trying to.


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

pdxuncertain said:


> I actually did this very thing this past Friday. I made my thoughts on infidelity and its consequences abundantly clear. She claimed she understood. It was just after this convo that she told the OM that they should "stop for a while". Then last night she gave him the "all clear" to resume matters. I guess she thinks I was just being paranoid or something and that it's blown over.


Well thats a great sign in my opinion.

She clearly thought you were 'getting warm' and clearly has concerns about your reaction, hence asking to cool things for a few days. 

Just a guess, but I suspect she will throw this bloke under the bus faster than a rat up a drainpipe, once you confront


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> That's definitely a clever idea. Of course, I doubt that anyone else knows about it, so that seems like it's the same as directly confronting her. Who else would have any way of knowing?
> 
> The more I talk about this whole matter, the more I realize that it sounds like I'm making excuses. And I'm so NOT trying to.


A work colleague, a friend of the OM, a friend of the WW... In general people who think they are being clever and secretive are often less clever and secretive than they think.


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

IF I was going to have an affair back in the day, I think I would have considered myself far too clever to be caught, and I would have been wrong.

Although.....knowing what I know now (since my W's affair) about technology, communication methods and surveillance, I'd probably be bloody hard to crack in future! (joke)


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> That's definitely a clever idea. Of course, I doubt that anyone else knows about it, so that seems like it's the same as directly confronting her. Who else would have any way of knowing?
> 
> The more I talk about this whole matter, the more I realize that it sounds like I'm making excuses. And I'm so NOT trying to.


What's the alternative to confronting, refereeing an EA until plans for a PA are made? You know this is not realistic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

Confront Now!!! Kill it early! If she isn't anything but snot running sorry and willing to do anything to repair the damage then end the marriage. Don't waste anymore time!!!


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> You could try this:
> 
> Set up an email account with a rare web-based free mail provider. One that you do NOT use.
> 
> ...


Great idea! But be aware that if you put the header of the received email into an IP tracer web page it will show the IP address of the sending machine, i.e. your home. 

If you can, go to an internet cafe, or use your mobile phone (the IP address is the nearest telecom server, so only accurate to a city). If you know about Proxy servers, change the IP address of your computer to a hidden Proxy IP, send the mail and remove the IP.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

mrtickle said:


> IF I was going to have an affair back in the day, I think I would have considered myself far too clever to be caught, and I would have been wrong.
> 
> Although.....knowing what I know now (since my W's affair) about technology, communication methods and surveillance, I'd probably be bloody hard to crack in future! (joke)


Mr Tickle I hate to say this but with that hat, those long arms and that devilish grin, you'd never get away with it!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

PastOM said:


> Great idea! But be aware that if you put the header of the received email into an IP tracer web page it will show the IP address of the sending machine, i.e. your home.
> 
> If you can, go to an internet cafe, or use your mobile phone (the IP address is the nearest telecom server, so only accurate to a city). If you know about Proxy servers, change the IP address of your computer to a hidden Proxy IP, send the mail and remove the IP.


Yes. Good call! For added security use one of the above methods. Though as most providers use rotating IP numbers tracing is not always an exact science.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Yes, it sounds like you are making excuses. You ARE making excuses.

I've never seen the fake email used, so I would be interested in seeing how that plays out. My guess is it would go something like this:

You: I got an email said you were cheating with R.
Wife: I got it too. It's completely untrue. We're just good friends.
You: I believe you, but would you mind if I look at your phone?
Wife: Pick your favorite response:
1. NO WAY. I refuse to live with a man who doesn't trust me!
2. I have to go to the store now, I told S I would meet her there, but I'll give it to you when I get back.

Anyway, I still would like to see how it plays out.

Now, the reason you are making excuses is because you are so afraid. Your wife KNOWS you suspect something, but she is NOT afraid. How does it make you feel that your wife is willing to risk losing you and willing to break up her young family?

There are a lot of threads on this forum, start reading. I would say stop reading when you come to a thread where doing what you're doing works, but then we'd never hear from you again. But really, go ahead and take a look. What you will find is that it doesn't matter all that much how you confront.

IF your wife wants to take it underground, how in the heck are you going to stop it? There are chat features on games, there are text apps that don't log calls/texts, there are burner phones, there are secret email accounts, trust me, there are about 1,000 ways to communicate undetected and there is no way you can prevent it unless you are with her 24/7. Your wife's good friend is a big cheater, so I'm sure her friend will help her communicate with the other man if your wife needs a hand. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. One hand washes the other. You get the point.

The longer you allow this long-distance affair to continue, the deeper it will get. Soon, she will be convinced that this other man is her soul mate, IF SHE IS NOT THINKING THAT ALREADY.

Here is my game plan for you.

First, buy three voice-activated recorders and some heavy-duty velcro. Put one in your wife's car, put one in the house where your wife is likely to talk on the phone when you are not around, and keep a third one on you at all times so that if she falsely accuses you, you at least have proof she is lying. Put those in place BEFORE you confront your wife.

Second, start looking for other man's girlfriend. If you find her, contact her and let her know what your wife and other man have been up to.

Also, at the same time, set up a confrontation with your wife. Wait until the baby is asleep, tell your wife there is something very important you have to talk about.

Here is a problem for you: You have already let her know that unfaithfulness is unacceptable, and she has started it up again anyway. In the future, when you give an ultimatum or lay down a consequence, you better stick to it or else your wife is going to quickly learn that your ultimatums and consequences are meaningless.

When you confront your wife, start out by telling her how much you love her. Tell her that you know you have faults, but that if she doesn't tell you about them, then you can't fix them. Tell her that you love her and that you want to improve any faults you have, and you want to improve your marriage.

Next, tell her that, even though you love her, you cannot tolerate adultery, infidelity, or unfaithfulness of any kind in your marriage. Tell her that this does not only include physical sex, it also includes kissing, it includes telling another man that she loves him, and it includes sending another man explicitly sexual messages. Pause here for at least 10 seconds. Then again says that it includes sending another man sexually explicit messages. Ask her if she understands what you are saying.

She may have started making her excuses at this point. If not, tell her that you KNOW that she has been sending and receiving sexually explicit messages with other man. Don't tell her how you know, but she will figure it out.

Stay calm, cool, confident throughout this confrontation. Don't whine, plead, or beg. Don't argue with her. Just state what you need and tell her anything less is unacceptable. If she wants to argue about privacy, tell her that privacy is for the bathroom, everything else is secrecy.

Next, tell her that you want to work on the marriage, but only if she ends all contact with other man now and forever. Give her these conditions:

1. She ceases all contact with other man. If other man texts her, she does not respond and shows you. If other man calls her, she doesn't answer and tells you. If she accidentally picks up a call, once she realizes who it is she hangs up immediately and tells you.

2. She handwrites a "no contact" letter to the other man.

_"Other Man:

Do not ever attempt to contact me again. I am horribly ashamed of my behavior and feel absolutely terrible about having risked losing the man I love more than any other man in the world, my husband, especially for someone like you who is in every way inferior to my husband. If you ever attempt to contact me again, I will file harassment charges against you.

Signed,

Wife Name"​_
The no contact letter contains no terms of endearment, no niceties, no I will always think of you fondly.

Your wife HANDWRITES it BY HAND on PAPER, you watch her write it, she gives it to you, you mail it certified mail to the other man.

3. She gives you all passwords and access to all communication devices and accounts, she deletes nothing, she lets you know where she is going to be 24/7 and she answers or responds immediately when you call/text. GPS her car.

Tell your wife you cannot control her, you can only control yourself and what you are willing to tolerate and not tolerate in a marriage - and you are not willing to tolerate what has been going on with the other man.

Tell your wife you are fighting for her and fighting for your marriage, that is why you are taking these actions, so you can rebuild trust in her.

Keep the VARs in place for at least a few weeks and then from time to time after that. Don't ever tell your wife about them. If she reestablishes contact, these probably will pick it up. If they pick up nothing, you re-establish trust that much quicker. If they do pick up something, at least you know what's going on instead of being in the dark about it for who knows how long.

If your wife does not agree to your condtions, expose the affair to your and her families and close friends. Tell them what has been going on, with whom, that he has been divorced three times and cheated on his wife each time, and that she refuses to end it or refuses to let you verify it has ended, and ask them to talk to her to influence her to end it with this guy for the sake of your child and even for her sake as well as for your sake.

One thing about your marriage bothers me - if you were cheated on by your first wife, why would you marry this woman who obviously had no problem with cheating based on how she watched her friend cheat on her husband with this guy and still considered both of them friends at the time of your marriage?

One other thing - whoever knew of this relationship of your wife's with other man and didn't tell you - maybe your wife's friend or friends - also should be eliminated from your lives. If they are not friends of the marriage, they have no place being friends with either of you.

I understand your fear based on your past experience, but you can't let that stop you from doing what must be done. Use the VAR to protect yourself this time.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> I actually did this very thing this past Friday. I made my thoughts on infidelity and its consequences abundantly clear. She claimed she understood. It was just after this convo that she told the OM that they should "stop for a while". Then last night she gave him the "all clear" to resume matters. I guess she thinks I was just being paranoid or something and that it's blown over.


Then it's time to implement the consequences, you can certainly fill out divorce papers without finalizing them. Either your wife needs some sort of stimulus to bring her back on the team, or is she irredeemable. No one can figure that out for you, but doing nothing is silent consent.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

PDX

Can I make a simple suggestion.

Go see an attorney. Understand your rights about your daughter.

Then go to the bank. Open a new account and deduct half of your money into it. Have your direct deposit go there now.

Go on your states website and print out the Divorce paperwork.

Sit your wife down after your daughter is in bed.

Slide the divorce paperwork over to her.

Tell her this:

"Honey, I find your communication with POSOM inappropriate. I asked you to stop and you have not. 

I went to see an attorney this week.

I went to the bank this week.

If you are so unhappy with me and want to have sex with that loser then please take this paperwork, fill it out and I will file it on your behalf.

I am giving you 24 hours to decide.

If you choose not to Divorce me then we will have another conversation about your behavior."

Then get up and walk away. Give her 24 hours.

If she denies any of her behavior tel her she has 24 hours and to use them wisely.

Then watch her texts and listen to the var that you have put in her car the next day.

Her action will speak much clearer than her words.

Stop playing the fool and take charge.

HM64


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Wow, Will_Kane... thanks for that. You make a lot of great points. What's funny is that, if it were a friend of mine, I'd be saying much the same as what you did here. And that's what bothers me, is I know how I'd tell someone else to act, I just seem to have trouble bringing myself to it.

A couple clarifications, though:


Will_Kane said:


> Your wife KNOWS you suspect something, but she is NOT afraid.


Based on what I saw that she said to him last night, I don't think she actually knows that I suspect. She made a statement to him that made it sound like she attributed my suspicions to being upset that she didn't want to have sex with me the other night, not anything she's done or said. Now, I fully acknowledge that this could be her way of placating him. Who knows.




Will_Kane said:


> How does it make you feel that your wife is willing to risk losing you and willing to break up her young family?


Honestly, it angers the hell out of me. But I know I've got a temper, and so I'm trying to make sure nothing I do in regards to this is out of anger, but is a rational decision.



Will_Kane said:


> One thing about your marriage bothers me - if you were cheated on by your first wife, why would you marry this woman who obviously had no problem with cheating based on how she watched her friend cheat on her husband with this guy and still considered both of them friends at the time of your marriage?


I think you misunderstood. My wife, S, knew about her friend and the OM after the fact. And it was the OM that did the cheating. Her friend was actually single at the time. And lied to by OM about his marital status. So she didn't approve or even turn a blind eye to something her friend did. (And actually, that girl and she are no longer friends at this point). It IS ****ed up that she knows what a dirtbag OM is and yet is carrying on this thing with him now.

But thanks for your thoughts.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

pdxuncertain said:


> As I said, my big concern at this point is that if I confront her, rather than it stopping, she'll just try to hide it more carefully.
> 
> 
> I know that may sound like I'm making excuses, but believe me I'm not. I'm just at a loss for a good way to proceed and thought I'd seek some input from others. I appreciate the suggestions you've both made, so far.


The above tells me you do not trust your wife. Obviously, you shouldn't based on her full blown EA. While you may know where and when your wife travels, you really can't be sure about his travel plans. How can you be certain that he hasn't been around your area close enough for a visit?

Good luck
WD


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

However you choose to confront, the only thing that's going to happen is, that it will force your wife's hand.

Whatever will happen, will just happen sooner. Whatever she's going to do, when you confront her, it will force her to do it that much sooner.

If anything, the sooner you confront, the better off you will be. That's because the longer this goes on, the deeper she will get into it, the harder it will be for her to give it up, and maybe she even will doubt her love for you and leave your regardless.

This relationship with the other man is replacing her romantic relationship with you, and you are becoming the roommate provider while he is becoming her sexual partner.

If you let this thing go, what happens is that within a year they will devise a strategy to meet up or they will let the long-distance relationship fizzle. If you let it go that long and they plan to meet up, even if you confront, they will go through with it anyway and she might come back begging afterwards, or she might leave you for him.

Take a look at the other stories here. It never works out for the betrayed husbands who wait to confront. To be honest, it doesn't work out all that often no matter what, but it NEVER works when they wait too long. By the time the betrayed husband suspects anything, or finds evidence, and posts here, the cheating wife has already gone too far and either the betrayed husband doesn't want her back or else she doesn't want to come back. So prepare yourself, get ready for the worst, and hope for the best.

Watch out for these old chestnuts:

"I love you but I'm not in love with you" = I am "in love" with other man, I love you like a roommate.

"I need space" = I need to be away from you because it's too hard to carry on an affair with you around. I want to see if I like the other man better than you. If she says she needs space and moves out (or worse yet you move out), rest assured, she will be making plans to meet up with other man that very night.


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## Lmodel (Jun 1, 2012)

Piss her off.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

PDX, how much has your wife told you about her relationship with R? Is it out in the open that your wife texts with R, but the volume and content of the texts are not known? Or is her contacting R a thing that she is keeping from you? If it is the former, then you could make your opinions clear that you will not tolerate any friendships with anyone who has cheated on their spouse. Cheaters are not friends of your marriage, period. But if she is keeping this a secret from you, then you should just bite the bullet and confront. 

Is her cell phone on its own plan or are you in a joint plan? If it's a joint plan, then try to look back to see how long this has been going on. If it's under her name and you don't have access to the account, then you really don't know how long this has been going on. Be prepared for the possibility that 1) your wife and R had already had sex before, 2) R and your wife may have cheated on you when you first started dating her up to the beginning of your marriage, who knows what. I'm not saying that this is so, but just be mentally prepared that this is deeper than you think it is.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Dude,
If you want to be married and your wife wants to be married, you will stay married. If your wife does not want to be married, then she will divorce you. You telling her to stop her affair does not impact your marital status. It only forces her to make her choice. It is heartbreakingly sad that she could deny you your family but unfortunatly this is the hand you were dealt through making a bad choice (and yes, you had the information in that she did not turn her back on a cheater).

You don't have to play games about how you found the information. OWN IT. You did nothting wrong. HERE YOU ARE, and HERE IS YOUR TERMS and if she does not want to be a faithful and open wife then she should leave the home.

The way you get around the fear of her taking it underground is to know that you will only accept open, verbalized and real remorse. Read Tears thread... You will know remorse when you are recieving it... If you recieve other than real remorse, then you don't have to worry about whther the affiar is underground, you just assume that it is...


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> This relationship with the other man is replacing her romantic relationship with you, and you are becoming the roommate provider while he is becoming her sexual partner.


Actually, that hasn't happened... yet. So far, our relationship hasn't diminished in terms of affection from her, either emotional or physical. Yet. I'm fully aware that if it continues, that's very likely to happen.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> PDX, how much has your wife told you about her relationship with R? Is it out in the open that your wife texts with R, but the volume and content of the texts are not known? Or is her contacting R a thing that she is keeping from you? If it is the former, then you could make your opinions clear that you will not tolerate any friendships with anyone who has cheated on their spouse. Cheaters are not friends of your marriage, period. But if she is keeping this a secret from you, then you should just bite the bullet and confront.
> 
> Is her cell phone on its own plan or are you in a joint plan? If it's a joint plan, then try to look back to see how long this has been going on. If it's under her name and you don't have access to the account, then you really don't know how long this has been going on. Be prepared for the possibility that 1) your wife and R had already had sex before, 2) R and your wife may have cheated on you when you first started dating her up to the beginning of your marriage, who knows what. I'm not saying that this is so, but just be mentally prepared that this is deeper than you think it is.


It's totally out in the open that they are "friends" and that she chats with him via text. She has him as a Facebook friend and they follow each other on twitter. She hides none of this. It's simply the nature of their conversations that's been secret. And based on what I've seen them say to each other, this is a recent development.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the input. I definitely had a lot to think about last night, and it was good to have some external feedback. One thing I've struggled with recently is that I felt like I had no one to talk to about this. Not that I have no friends, but that I didn't want to air dirty laundry to any of them IF (and I stress the if) this situation can be resolved in a way that repairs the trust that's been broken. My friends knew my ex-wife, and any indicator that S may be headed down the same road would definitely cause a lot of unrepairable feelings between they and her.

But I think I've formulated a plan, with a lot of input from the suggestions here. I'm going to give her a clear cut, simple choice. The only choice I really have left to make is this: Should I sit down and tell her my plan in person, or should I leave her a letter to read on her day off? A letter seems very passive-aggressive, but it also means she has a chance to read and reread it without our "discussion" escalating into an arguement.

The plan is as follows:



> I love you. I want you to know that as you read this, and to understand that if I didn't I wouldn't even take the steps I've taken, I would simply walk away from this. We've started a family, and I do not want to break that family up, but a miserable home is no better for a child than divorced parents.
> 
> I told you in the beginning of our relationship that I would not tolerate lying, deception, or cheating. I reminded you of this the other day, and you assured me that none of those were of any concern.
> 
> ...


Thoughts?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> It's totally out in the open that they are "friends" and that she chats with him via text. She has him as a Facebook friend and they follow each other on twitter. She hides none of this. It's simply the nature of their conversations that's been secret. And based on what I've seen them say to each other, this is a recent development.


I have to flat out ask this. If you knew about this guy and his history, why in the fvck would you ever allow this friendship between your wife and this guy. If the guy is a known player, then he shouldn't be a thought let alone a part of your lives. I am a believer of having to save a spouse from himself/herself from time to time. It's part of being married - to watch out for each other. You allowed her to cavort with a wolf. Dude...the guy cheated on his wife with your wife's friend. NFW would this guy be allowed around my wife if I was you.

Edit to add: What about the friend who cheated with R? Is she a friend of your wife's? That's a toxic friendship IMHO.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

All looks good, except if she chooses to not agree to your terms, it's unrealistic to expect that she would hand-write a letter outing R to his girlfriend. I would leave that part out. You can't enforce that. Also, if you threatened to write that letter to R's girlfriend, you wouldn't be sure if she's agreeing to terms in order to actually be with you or to protect R.

Also, if she doesn't agree to terms, do you want to put anything in there about her moving out immediately? Don't know your living status or financial situation. But if you have deed/rental in your name, this may be a consideration.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Also, don't use the word "leniency." It sets you up as judge and fuels any "control" protests she may present. Simply state that you will not be part of a relationship with a woman that betrays your trust in such a manner.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

tacoma said:


> -Because you're not trustworthy.
> -Because I've invested my whole ****ing life into a cheating woman and it's made me a tad bit insecure.
> -Because anyone entitled enough to ask me about "spying" after I just busted her in the midst of an affair is a clinical narcissist and can't be left to her own devices.


Perfect.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I have to flat out ask this. If you knew about this guy and his history, why in the fvck would you ever allow this friendship between your wife and this guy. If the guy is a known player, then he shouldn't be a thought let alone a part of your lives. I am a believer of having to save a spouse from himself/herself from time to time. It's part of being married - to watch out for each other. You allowed her to cavort with a wolf. Dude...they guy cheated on his wife with your wife's friend. NFW would this guy be allowed around my wife if I was you.


I'm not in the habit of telling my wife who she can and cannot talk to. I'm really not a fan of that sort of thing in a relationship. I believe that each person should be able to trust the other enough to not be concerned with who they talk to, because nothing inappropriate should ever develop or happen regardless of who it is. Perhaps I'm too trusting in that regard, but I always felt that if I can't trust a person that much, then I don't want to be in a relationship with her at all.

And in the beginning, they were nothing more than casual acquaintances. I think she talked to him maybe once or twice a year at most, and that was restricted to the occasional comment on a Facebook post or reply to a Tweet or something similar. Things that didn't and wouldn't concern me in the slightest. It's only been very recently that they've become more friendly, and apparently that escalated fairly quickly. In fact, that's part of what prompted me to check her phone in the first place. I found it odd that suddenly she was referring to him more as a friend than as someone she barely knew.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> All looks good, except if she chooses to not agree to your terms, it's unrealistic to expect that she would hand-write a letter outing R to his girlfriend. I would leave that part out. You can't enforce that. Also, if you threatened to write that letter to R's girlfriend, you wouldn't be sure if she's agreeing to terms in order to actually be with you or to protect R.


I had considered that, and perhaps you're right. I WILL be sending something to R's girl either way, but leaving that out of the "it's over" option is probably a good idea. Thanks.



MarriedTex said:


> Also, if she doesn't agree to terms, do you want to put anything in there about her moving out immediately? Don't know your living status or financial situation. But if you have deed/rental in your name, this may be a consideration.


We own a home together, so that part is going to be tricky. The reality is, I don't really like our house and have wanted to get out of it if possible, but we're currently upside down on the mortgage. So, as far as I'm concerned, she can have the house and the debt that accompanies it. I could be in my own apartment within a week. I would just need to ensure that if I let her have the house, I get free from the debt completely so she can't let it foreclose and impact me or something stupid like that.



MarriedTex said:


> Also, don't use the word "leniency." It sets you up as judge and fuels any "control" protests she may present. Simply state that you will not be part of a relationship with a woman that betrays your trust in such a manner.


Good point.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Edit to add: What about the friend who cheated with R? Is she a friend of your wife's? That's a toxic friendship IMHO.


She was. They stopped talking to each other quite a while ago. That friend made some really ****ty life choices (beyond sleeping with a married man) that my wife didn't want to be exposed to.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> *I'm not in the habit of telling my wife who she can and cannot talk to. I'm really not a fan of that sort of thing in a relationship.*
> 
> Yeah, I used to feel that way too. No longer.
> 
> *I always felt that if I can't trust a person that much, then I don't want to be in a relationship with her at all.*


Well, if you still feel that way now, then R is the wrong path for you. That trust you once had, will never return, at least not completely. 

I'm not saying that R is not right for you otherwise, but the world of a BS in R is a new reality. You will instinctively adjust your mindset if you choose it.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> She was. They stopped talking to each other quite a while ago. *That friend made some really ****ty life choices (beyond sleeping with a married man) that my wife didn't want to be exposed to.*


Funny how it was some other thing and not marital infidelity that was the deal breaker here. To quote another poster on TAM...UFB


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> ....
> 
> So, I guess you could say I was checking up on her, but what I found is definitely not acceptable. In my defense, I didn't always check up on her, only recently. And that's only because there were some suspicious signs from her.
> 
> ...


You saying this speaks volumes. Who cares if you were looking at her phone? THERE IS NO PRIVACY IN MARRIAGE, period! The only privacy you get is in the toilet....that's it. 

Get over that chit right away...nothing wrong with checking up on a spouse, especially since your suspicions were correct. If you go in with the attitude that you were wrong to spy, she will use it to her advantage and paint you as something you aren't.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> I'm not in the habit of telling my wife who she can and cannot talk to. I'm really not a fan of that sort of thing in a relationship. I believe that each person should be able to trust the other enough to not be concerned with who they talk to, because nothing inappropriate should ever develop or happen regardless of who it is. Perhaps I'm too trusting in that regard, but I always felt that if I can't trust a person that much, then I don't want to be in a relationship with her at all.
> 
> And in the beginning, they were nothing more than casual acquaintances. I think she talked to him maybe once or twice a year at most, and that was restricted to the occasional comment on a Facebook post or reply to a Tweet or something similar. Things that didn't and wouldn't concern me in the slightest. It's only been very recently that they've become more friendly, and apparently that escalated fairly quickly. In fact, that's part of what prompted me to check her phone in the first place. I found it odd that suddenly she was referring to him more as a friend than as someone she barely knew.


I won't belabor the point, but I'll make one final comment and let it drop. It's called maintaining healthy boundaries. Trusting your spouse to do the right thing is good and natural for a marriage, but you need to understand it in the proper context. It's one thing for your wife to do the right thing in a social setting where an unexpected proposition comes up and she passes it with flying colors. It's an entirely different situation to trust her in a situation where bad things are likely to happen or will happen sooner or later. Does it make sense to purposefully put yourself into situations where the temptation to do the wrong thing is rampant? Of course it doesn't. Just like this friend R who you described as a serial cheater. 1) married 3 or more times, 2) known to cheat on his wife and 3) cheated on his last wife with a close friend of your wife's. So the odds of this guy soliciting your wife to cheat on you are quite high given the history that you know. Are you going to tell me that it really makes sense to not object to this friendship knowing what you know about this guy? She could have told this guy "no" a 100 times already, and the 101st attempt by him to get in her pants could have been the successful one. It's called "playing with fire", "tempting fate", etc. etc.... It makes ZERO sense to intentionally put yourself into a situation where the odds to be tempted to do something bad is high. 

I'm letting this drop on my end. Hope you think about this some more.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> She was. They stopped talking to each other quite a while ago. That friend made some really ****ty life choices (beyond sleeping with a married man) that my wife didn't want to be exposed to.


....your wife didn't want to be exposed to someone who made chitty choices, so now she's sleeping with the same dude.

How Ironic


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> I'm not in the habit of telling my wife who she can and cannot talk to. I'm really not a fan of that sort of thing in a relationship. I believe that each person should be able to trust the other enough to not be concerned with who they talk to, because nothing inappropriate should ever develop or happen regardless of who it is. Perhaps I'm too trusting in that regard, but I always felt that if I can't trust a person that much, then I don't want to be in a relationship with her at all.
> ....


I think you need to get over that, because your wife cannot be trusted. And should you stay with her, be prepared to NEVER be able to trust her again, because now that she has stepped over and crushed that line in the sand, you will be dealing with her "choice" for the rest of your days.


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> You could try this:
> 
> Set up an email account with a rare web-based free mail provider. One that you do NOT use.
> 
> ...


WOW that is very creative!!!


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I won't belabor the point, but I'll make one final comment and let it drop. It's called maintaining healthy boundaries. Trusting your spouse to do the right thing is good and natural for a marriage, but you need to understand it in the proper context. It's one thing for your wife to do the right thing in a social setting where an unexpected proposition comes up and she passes it with flying colors. It's an entirely different situation to trust her in a situation where bad things are likely to happen or will happen sooner or later. Does it make sense to purposefully put yourself into situations where the temptation to do the wrong thing is rampant? Of course it doesn't. Just like this friend R who you described as a serial cheater. 1) married 3 or more times, 2) known to cheat on his wife and 3) cheated on his last wife with a close friend of your wife's. So the odds of this guy soliciting your wife to cheat on you are quite high given the history that you know. Are you going to tell me that it really makes sense to not object to this friendship knowing what you know about this guy? She could have told this guy "no" a 100 times already, and the 101st attempt by him to get in her pants could have been the successful one. It's called "playing with fire", "tempting fate", etc. etc.... It makes ZERO sense to intentionally put yourself into a situation where the odds to be tempted to do something bad is high.
> 
> I'm letting this drop on my end. Hope you think about this some more.


You make an excellent point. Ironically, I've actually talked about this very same thing with her in regards to a mutual friend of ours. A person she and I are both friends with was "playing with fire", and we both agreed that it's just stupid to do so. Because even if you are innocent, the other party is doing nothing but being destructive (or at least trying to be) and eventually, that WILL take its toll.

Funny how we tend to overlook these rational views when it becomes about you and not someone else.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

tulsy said:


> ....your wife didn't want to be exposed to someone who made chitty choices, so now she's sleeping with the same dude.
> 
> How Ironic


Actually, she hasn't slept with him yet. So far, it's just an EA. Of that I'm certain.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The thought behind your letter is great.
The letter itself has some issues...
Follow the KISS principle.. keep it simple.

a - she will not agree to sign a divorce paper, all you can threaten is that you wll file

b - you shouldn't threaten exposure... She ill immediatly tell everhyone that you are insane and crazy and abusing her.

I would talk about your conditions in such a way that you are not going into all the gory detail... You want her to AGREE right?

Example: It's easier to agree that she will not contact him any more, than it is to agree to write that exact letter. It's easier to agree to "transparency", then it is to agree to write a specific letter to his girlfriend.

In other words, "Make the sale" first. Let her choose marriage / no contact / transparency or divorce. 

If she chooses marriage, that's when you hit her up with your specifics.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> Actually, she hasn't slept with him *yet*. So far, it's just an EA. Of that I'm certain.


My bad...only nude pics and talking about sex....ONLY.

Yet...that's the correct word if you are afraid to step up and confront, because yes, it will just be a matter of time.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I liked the letter. It won't run exactly according to script if you do it face to face, but face to face allows you to read body language, see facial expressions, evaluate tone of voice and pauses - do it face to face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

I liked the letter also. I would suggest sitting down with her with a glass of wine. Ask her to read the letter slowly and completely and do not ask any questions until you have completed reading the letter. I agree looking at her expression and body language is essential. 

You want to be there with her so she does not have time to contact R to get their stories straight and develop a plan of action against you. 

Confronting this head on makes a lot of sense. I wish you luck.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Your letter is a good starting place, but you really need to be there face-to-face. I know why you want to give her the letter and then go hide - you're afraid of her. You're afraid of it going badly and you are mostly afraid that she will choose this loser over you.

*She won't, if you prove to her through your actions now, that you are a man not only worthy of being faithful to, but as one who will not stand for anything less.*

My story runs closer to yours than most here. My WW had an EA and a lot of opportunity while away on a work training trip that lasted a month. Her and OM were in the same hotel (with other classmates) for a MONTH.

The only way to snap them out of this stupid fantasy is to blow it up HUGE. Mr. R is a player; my wife's OM was a player also. They know the right things to say and do. They know how to isolate and escalate. He didn't care about the marriage - he wanted his ego stoked by having a married woman make herself available. And completely to my surprise, my loving wife was all too happy to assist.

After reading on here for about a week, I woke her up on the one weekend during that month that they flew her home, demanded to know who he was, and got the whole "we're just friends", "he's never tried anything", "yes, I think he's sexy, but..."

I was also very fearful of what was happening to my marriage, but I took to heart the lessons so painfully transcribed by other BS's here. I came down HARD on her. Laid out some new law. Told her I would spend the last 2 weeks of her training trip considering *my* options. I told her to fly back there and look him in the eye once more and decide if this pathetic boy-toy player was worth losing her home, husband of 19 years, and a loving family. Because she was right on the edge of doing precisely that.

She came apart in remorse. You could see it in her face the moment she got the message that she wasn't going to be having this little fling, and that, in truth, it really wasn't worth it. I had to make it real for her what was at stake. And I was so angry, I meant every word.

You need to be that strong. And frankly, that pissed off. These people will tell you over and over again that you MUST be willing to risk losing the marriage in order to have any real chance of saving it.

With a cheating spouse, the next move after D-Day is a game of chicken. The first one who flinches, loses. You must NOT flinch. She must know that you will never again tolerate her straying from your marriage, even with her mind and heart, and that her days of secrecy are over for good.

Sorry you are here, bro!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I sure liked your letter. Sit her down and let her read it out loud so you can see her reactions to thd various parts or you read it to her.

I sure hope you have the couragebto do this and stay icy calm. Do not shoe any emotion, thhis really drives them crazy and shows how serious the situation really is.

I see no way in hell she can refuse unless theybhave plans to move in together.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> Your letter is a good starting place, but you really need to be there face-to-face. I know why you want to give her the letter and then go hide - you're afraid of her. You're afraid of it going badly and you are mostly afraid that she will choose this loser over you.


Actually, I'm not afraid of her at all. I am, however, aware of reality. Nor was my thought to "hide". It was more a chance to let the reality she's been faced with sink in, without giving her the chance to turn it into an argument on the spot. Let her dwell on it and really consider her options.

That said, I do agree with most of the reasons given for the face to face. Watching her reaction, and more importantly, not giving her the chance to take to the OM about it, would definitely be in my best interests.

But I get where you're coming from.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

chapparal said:


> I sure hope you have the couragebto do this and stay icy calm. Do not shoe any emotion, thhis really drives them crazy and shows how serious the situation really is.


Courage and ability are quite different things. I definitely have the stones to do so... but I'm known for having a bit of a temper and I just hope I can stay cool and not let it get heated. That's generally NOT how I work, but I know in a situation like this it's essential.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

pdxuncertain said:


> Courage and ability are quite different things. I definitely have the stones to do so... but I'm known for having a bit of a temper and I just hope I can stay cool and not let it get heated. That's generally NOT how I work, but I know in a situation like this it's essential.


You can do it. Most posters are shocked at how much control they ended up having. Whatever you do, do not let her see you cry.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Do not accept even the start of an arguement. It is a statement. She either accepts your terms or not. We have seen women leave their husband and kids to go be with someone they have neverr met thousands of miles away.

The only answer I would give her is to text her the naked picture or two.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> Actually, *I'm not afraid of her at all.* I am, however, aware of reality. *Nor was my thought to "hide".* It was more a chance to let the reality she's been faced with sink in, without giving her the chance to turn it into an argument on the spot. Let her dwell on it and really consider her options.
> 
> That said, I do agree with most of the reasons given for the face to face. Watching her reaction, and more importantly, not giving her the chance to take to the OM about it, would definitely be in my best interests.
> 
> But I get where you're coming from.


Dear pdxuncertain,

I'm not buying your excuses. There's a reason why every woman you fall for starts to cheat on you -- you come across as a rather poor imitation a man. If you don't tell her to her face that you won't tolerate her continued infidelities, she will know immediately how little she has to fear from you.

Get a copy of "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay and learn what women really want from their partners. Believe me, it's not what you're dishing out.

Good luck.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> Your letter is a good starting place, but you really need to be there face-to-face. I know why you want to give her the letter and then go hide - you're afraid of her. You're afraid of it going badly and you are mostly afraid that she will choose this loser over you.
> 
> *She won't, if you prove to her through your actions now, that you are a man not only worthy of being faithful to, but as one who will not stand for anything less.*
> 
> ...


This is where you have to be mentally.

The thing about it being a game of "chicken," is very true; your wife already decided to play, to risk everything, by doing what she's doing with the other man. When you confront, she has to know your are serious and won't back down. She already showed you she is willing to lose everything. If you give any hint that you will cave/compromise on what you need rather than divorce, she will play that card with you.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

There is is huge degree of confidence you have to have when confronting.

wayward can sense weakness and uncertainty, but one that see that you know, then they know you now know and the cent of confidence is what way wards have to see..

Once the gas lighting an d then the blame shifting has now effect they then see it is pointless in trying to negotiate through their betrayal....

If you know were I am coming from then you know when you a dealing with someone that knows their sh1t.....it just like that with confronting your old lady she will know you know your sh!t when you confront her and a damn well confident about it.

so what ever you do don't cry, don't ask questions, don't even call her out on it, just make the statement that you will now longer share your wife and if she wants to continue then now is the time to back her things and leave....you a big boy and will find a women that will respect you.


See when you add in other women it adds to the effect....and that effect is getting them to think twice....second guess her choice and make them face the fact that " he knows"... " hes letting me go"!!!

make sense?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You sound like an intense guy and can be very firm.....In confronting your old lady you have to be a different guy... hell smile wish her the best and thank her for the good times.

Again another tactic in getting her to think twice about who her husband has become now that " he knows"!!!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

When you walk away from the confrontation you want her asking her self " who the phuck was that?"

The last thing you want is her see int same husband that she cheated on.. the same husband that she gave lip service to time and again to get her way and get you off her back.

There are two main thoughts in infidelity #1 making the affair inconvienent and uncomfortable to continue and getting the AP completely out of the picture...and #2 have the confidence in letting the wayward go, a tactic to get them second guessing their current choices with regard to what they are about to loose.

Not exposing and not sending a NC letter you will fall in #1.... crying and begging, then you will fail in #2!


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> Dear pdxuncertain,
> 
> I'm not buying your excuses. There's a reason why every woman you fall for starts to cheat on you -- you come across as a rather poor imitation a man.
> 
> ...


Wow. You sound just like the OM. When my wife first thought I was getting "suspicious", and told the OM, that **** right there is the same sort of thing he tried to tell her in order to get her to think that I was the one doing something wrong, not her.

Not that I have anything I need to justify to you, but you couldn't be more wrong when you say "every woman" I've been with has started to cheat. It's been two.

Way to not be helpful at all.


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## Doyle (Mar 6, 2013)

Just want to say your getting some top advice from will kane.

And I have to say pal your just gonna have to bite the bullet here and lay the law down, come what may.

Good luck.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The letter is too long and a little passive.

I'd do it like this:

Change the login password on the PC.

Plant a VAR by the landline phone

Sit her down and pick up her phone. Unlock it in front of her. Go in and change the passcode.

The open the pics or the sexy texts, either one will do.

Say, she has a choice. Him or you. One of you is from this moment on leaving your life. Her choice then and there. You won't accept her sexting him, or getting him worked up, or him and her having any kind of relationship. They've gone to far, and if it wasn't for distance they'd clearly be in bed together.

So she has a choice.

give her back the phone., but do not tell her the passcode.

Inform her thar if she chooses to stay she will have to be completely open and transparent with you from now on. No secret texting, emailing, pics etc. that stuff is gone forever. No more secrets and no more lies.

If she chooses you, then you both call him together on the spot, and you tell him that he needs to get lost out of her life forever, and if he doesn't you will be divorcing her.

You absolutely need to go hardball on this. No games. the colder and calmer you are the stronger the message.

Then leave the house for a few hours. Then come back, retrieve the var and go back out to listen to what she says when she calls him once you left the house.

You will then know if you have a marriage to save.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

So any update? Did you present the letter?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Be sure there are VARs in the house, in the car and on your person.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> This is where you have to be mentally.
> 
> The thing about it being a game of "chicken," is very true; your wife already decided to play, to risk everything, by doing what she's doing with the other man. When you confront, she has to know your are serious and won't back down. She already showed you she is willing to lose everything. If you give any hint that you will cave/compromise on what you need rather than divorce, she will play that card with you.


I disagree with only one point - that most WS's actually believe everything is at stake and chose to do that. I really think cake-eating is the name of the game.

I think the fog makes them think they can explain this away, that the BS (who is usually the doormat of the relationship) will just roll over and take it. Yes, they expect some rocky times if caught, but I don't think, except for exit affairs, that they actually believe they are going "all in".


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

pdxuncertain said:


> Actually, I'm not afraid of her at all. I am, however, aware of reality. Nor was my thought to "hide". It was more a chance to let the reality she's been faced with sink in, without giving her the chance to turn it into an argument on the spot. Let her dwell on it and really consider her options.
> 
> That said, I do agree with most of the reasons given for the face to face. Watching her reaction, and more importantly, not giving her the chance to take to the OM about it, would definitely be in my best interests.
> 
> But I get where you're coming from.


I didn't mean literally afraid of her. I meant being scared of the huge unknown that is about to happen to you. People generally don't change until the pain of staying as they are becomes greater than the pain of change. We naturally resist rocking our own boats if we can help it.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

He's been gone for 2 days - I'm sure the confrontation was not pretty.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I hope he didn't get gaslighted in to talking about TAM. My wife gaslighted me and I almost fell for it. Glad I didn't though.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

pdxuncertain said:


> Wow. You sound just like the OM. When my wife first thought I was getting "suspicious", and told the OM, that **** right there is the same sort of thing he tried to tell her in order to get her to think that I was the one doing something wrong, not her.
> 
> Not that I have anything I need to justify to you, but you couldn't be more wrong when you say "every woman" I've been with has started to cheat. It's been two.
> 
> Way to not be helpful at all.


I think there was a misunderstanding there. While it was tough love, it wasn't what you think it was.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

Well, I confronted her. And she responded much how I figured she would. She tried to turn it around and say that I violated her trust by spying on her, etc. She also tried to say that they were "just friends" and that nothing would have ever come of anything, it was all just "fun texts". She showed almost no remorse, and did nothing to really own up to anything. She agreed to no contact, but then made excuses all day long to avoid actually initiating that.

Essentially, I'm fairly certain she's going to just try to take it underground and not stop at all.

Which means there's another confrontation coming, and this one will involve divorce papers. I made it abundantly clear that divorce was the only alternative to immediate no-contact and admission of guilt. She claimed to understand, but it seems she didn't take it seriously.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

If you issued that ultimatum, YOU MUST FOLLOW THROUGH. The fog is thick with most of these WS's at first, and the reality of being slapped with D papers is usually the thing that finally snaps them to attention.

Do you have enough surveillance in place in case she does take it underground?


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> Do you have enough surveillance in place in case she does take it underground?


I certainly hope so, but you can never be sure. I've got a VAR in her car and two in the house. I put some software on her phone that monitors all her texts and calls, however, she made it clear that she believes I did this already so she'll probably take steps to remove them or get around them. She's fairly tech savvy, so she immediately noticed that something was up with her phone.

I also already caught OM trying to text her from a different number. She didn't answer that text, but I'm sure it's just the first step in going underground.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

pdxuncertain said:


> I certainly hope so, but you can never be sure. I've got a VAR in her car and two in the house. I put some software on her phone that monitors all her texts and calls, however, she made it clear that she believes I did this already so she'll probably take steps to remove them or get around them. She's fairly tech savvy, so she immediately noticed that something was up with her phone.
> 
> I also already caught OM trying to text her from a different number. She didn't answer that text, but I'm sure it's just the first step in going underground.


You want to know what's sick? That she is going to make you play this "cat and mouse" game with her.

Remember, you don't have to play out this little drama if you don't want to. You can simply file and let her know you are on to it and are no longer going to accept any form of this behavior. Let her prove there is nothing going on with full disclosure and transparency and No Contact.

I wonder why we as BS's do this sometimes - why not just demand full access on day one? Because we are afraid of them running off and leaving us. 

Can you gather enough by working backward, that you can confront the affair now, and simply file?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

pdxuncertain said:


> Well, I confronted her. And she responded much how I figured she would. She tried to turn it around and say that I violated her trust by spying on her, etc. She also tried to say that they were "just friends" and that nothing would have ever come of anything, it was all just "fun texts". She showed almost no remorse, and did nothing to really own up to anything. She agreed to no contact, but then made excuses all day long to avoid actually initiating that.
> 
> Essentially, I'm fairly certain she's going to just try to take it underground and not stop at all.
> 
> Which means there's another confrontation coming, and this one will involve divorce papers. I made it abundantly clear that divorce was the only alternative to immediate no-contact and admission of guilt. She claimed to understand, but it seems she didn't take it seriously.


First off what she is doing is cyber sexing. This is NOT an EA alone. It is a sexual relationship and is cheating. period.

Marriage is about love and respect and what she is doing in cheating is not loving and not respecting you. Trust us a by-product and she has broken trust.

So .... she must go NC with this guy immediately. There is nothing to negotiate or argue about with this. Period. She either does or does not. If she chooses the relationship with the OM then you know where you stand. If you feel she is going to take it undergorund then you flat just chose the wrong woman. Sorry. It happens. I would also suggest that for her to do this would indicate that this is NOT her first rodeo in cheating.

We cannot control people. However we can control our own boundaries. They will be hooking up IRL if they have not already. It is likely that this R is an ex lover already. Being halfway across the country means little if they want to bang each other. It will happen if she wants it to. Your only way to stop this is to follow through with the D papers if she takes it underground. I would expose anyway I could.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Find you a lawyer, she is not ready to give up the EA and ATM not scared of a D just yet.

How she handled herself showed she's just been faking it with you, I wouldn't bother waiting for her to break NC (probably doing that now as we speak) I'd get the papers in order today and go ahead and slap her across the face with them.

Tell her you've decided you are not going down this road again and you want out and no longer interested in saving the M. That's the only thing that will "wake her up" to what she is getting into. 

You also need to ask yourself why you are still around. 

Your only hope is to push for a D and see if she pulls a 180 and starts trying to save the M and stop you from leaving. Nothing short of that is going to work.

The only way to stop an unremorseful cheater is to dump them.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> You want to know what's sick? That she is going to make you play this "cat and mouse" game with her.
> 
> Remember, you don't have to play out this little drama if you don't want to. You can simply file and let her know you are on to it and are no longer going to accept any form of this behavior. Let her prove there is nothing going on with full disclosure and transparency and No Contact.


Oh, believe me. I'm not going to play the game. I told her during the confrontation that I will NOT live with doubt. I have to have certainty that it's over. Which means that even if I'm left wondering if it's truly over, I'm counting that as it not being over. She claims to have understood. I think she just doesn't think I'll actually walk over (as she described it) "just some texts". That's why I'm going to have to just go through with filing. She apparently didn't get the message.



InlandTXMM said:


> I wonder why we as BS's do this sometimes - why not just demand full access on day one? Because we are afraid of them running off and leaving us.


I did demand full access. Other than the weak attempts to try to say that it's invasive or whatever, she agreed to full access. But agreeing to it and doing it are two different things. She can agree to go full access all she wants, but then still set up accounts (email, Skype, etc) in a way that I don't know about them. She's knowledgeable enough to do that.


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## pdxuncertain (Apr 15, 2013)

ArmyofJuan said:


> Find you a lawyer, she is not ready to give up the EA and ATM not scared of a D just yet.


That's exactly what I'll be doing this week.



ArmyofJuan said:


> How she handled herself showed she's just been faking it with you.


Oh, I know. One of the more frustrating texts I found was her telling OM that she was giving me more "physical affection" and that it had supposedly eased my suspicions. That pissed me off more than some of the other more explicit stuff between them... the thought that she figured putting out more would pacify me.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Run for the hills, dude. She thinks you are an idiot who can be controlled with a little V.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Mr bad man, Mr Evil evil man. That's what you are, you're keeping them from their fun, she thinks she's entitled to what she's doing and you're spoiling it.

So you issued the ultimatum, no remorse on her part, she didn't act in accordance with a wife who was truly sorry for what she did and wanted to fix things. It may have jolted her but since you think she'll just take it underground, it might be best to hire a PI.
If she doesn't respect you then she might respect the divorce papers and the reality of her life after that...just make sure she wants to be WITH YOU not because she simply doesn't want to get divorced.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

pdxuncertain said:


> That's exactly what I'll be doing this week.
> 
> Oh, I know. One of the more frustrating texts I found was her telling OM that she was giving me more "physical affection" and that it had supposedly eased my suspicions. That pissed me off more than some of the other more explicit stuff between them... the thought that she figured putting out more would pacify me.


Good for you pdx. Way to take action. I see exactly ZERO remorse so far on her part based on what you described.

My 2 cents. I think you're doing the right thing here.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

pdxuncertain said:


> Oh, believe me. I'm not going to play the game. I told her during the confrontation that I will NOT live with doubt. I have to have certainty that it's over. Which means that even if I'm left wondering if it's truly over, I'm counting that as it not being over. She claims to have understood. I think she just doesn't think I'll actually walk over (as she described it) "just some texts". That's why I'm going to have to just go through with filing. She apparently didn't get the message.
> 
> 
> 
> I did demand full access. Other than the weak attempts to try to say that it's invasive or whatever, she agreed to full access. But *agreeing to it and doing it are two different things*. She can agree to go full access all she wants, but then still set up accounts (email, Skype, etc) in a way that I don't know about them. She's knowledgeable enough to do that.


Does she think she should be able to continue sexual texting with the other man because it's fun, and telling each other they plan to meet up some day? Did you ask her why she is doing it? Is harmless fun the only answer?

Agreeing to full access and giving full access should happen at the same time for all known accounts and devices. Did it?

Did you tell her not to delete anything?

Most cheaters believe you have hacked their phone but are totally clueless about the VAR. Does your wife suspect a VAR?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Well ain't this a b!tch, why did she marry you and start a family if she had this guy in mind as an ideal mate? You are the good guy- you gave your respect, love and commitment and she gives her loyalty and sexual attention to this bottom feeder. 

Some women can be stupid at times. It's a temporary state until they are brought up short by the fatal blow it brings to their lives. I think you are just the person to lay out the cards. If you D her, this guy will cease to recognize her existence. He does not want her, he wants a little free and easy sex from any foolish married woman with romantic notions. 

Maybe she thinks she is the woman to get the loyalty of this decietful insubstantial boy, like in the movies. This guy sounds like a playa who specializes in married woman. 

Ask her why she is behaving like a woman not worthy of respect and love? She should not be friends with a man with no moral fiber, its rubbing off on her. 

Your grace under fire is admirable and a sign of strength. Your wife may mistake your restrain for weakness. She is cheating and it is either him or you essentially

I think you should never take D off of the table. Your wifes behavior is outrageous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

pdxuncertain said:


> That's exactly what I'll be doing this week.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I know. One of the more frustrating texts I found was her telling OM that she was giving me more "physical affection" and that it had supposedly eased my suspicions. That pissed me off more than some of the other more explicit stuff between them... the thought that she figured putting out more would pacify me.


WTF???


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## Mtts (Apr 16, 2012)

Seriously I wouldn't even consider reconcilliation. Your wife doesn't sound like someone I would feel comfortable staying married to. 

We need a sub forum dedicated to encouraging divorce. I say this part in jest but part in truth. So many people choose to try and work out issues. My feelings have only intensified that once a partner begins to step out it's really not worth fighting over them. Way too many normal people to deal with that. 

I hope things are going better pdxuncertain, stay safe bro.


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