# spine building thread



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Thought it might be good to put ideas in this thread for spine building. After reading the posts for quite a while, I am noticing a common issue in the bs's. 
Is there a better way to make them see how their lack of spine is so much a part of the damage done and the continuation of the damage going forward.
From lack of ability to out the AP, to making their WS behavior public knowledge, to the 180. They just have no spine. I understand and honestly do sympathize with how hurt they are, I truly do. This is why I want to brainstorm a better way of approaching getting them to see the err of their ways and the simple fact that so many of us know that the only real way to lift the fog is to expose and the only way to get them to honestly begin to R is through no contact and a BS ability to perform a a successful 180. 
Time and time again, we are up against those who think the nice guy/gal approach will work. Time and again they hear the proven advice and choose to repeat a proven to fail approach.
Seems like insanity to me. 
No one on here has ever rewarded their dog for chewing their shoe. Why reward a WS with being extra nice and "trying harder"?

Post any thoughts or ideas you may have or experiences you have.

Please do not fill this thread with, how hard it is and how damaged you are during...blah blah blah. I would like to make it more clear for people that are the weaker ones emotionally, to make it more obvious how this works, and how being nice is actually them choosing to allow the behavior with out realizing it and are indirectly encouraging it IMO. They are rewarding the dog.


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## daibai (Sep 10, 2013)

I get it....but in my case, I am sorting out what I need in the event that we divorce which is possible. please see my very recent post..sad and vengeful. 

I am a business owner and have lots of 'spine' but I am trying to be practical...

I almost feel that I have no control over what my husband does and a confrontation would produce an array of events that I am not ready for. Every day I am talking myself down and resisting the confrontation until I feel prepared which will be in 2 weeks time. I understand that anything can happen within that time but am hedging my bets. I guess I'm a very strategic person.

Thanks and look forward to further discussion.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

interesting topic.

I haven't been in the BS position , but I look forward to reading the responses.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Thought it might be good to put ideas in this thread for spine building. After reading the posts for quite a while, I am noticing a common issue in the bs's.
> Is there a better way to make them see how their lack of spine is so much a part of the damage done and the continuation of the damage going forward.
> From lack of ability to out the AP, to making their WS behavior public knowledge, to the 180. They just have no spine. I understand and honestly do sympathize with how hurt they are, I truly do. This is why I want to brainstorm a better way of approaching getting them to see the err of their ways and the simple fact that so many of us know that the only real way to lift the fog is to expose and the only way to get them to honestly begin to R is through no contact and a BS ability to perform a a successful 180.
> Time and time again, we are up against those who think the nice guy/gal approach will work. Time and again they hear the proven advice and choose to repeat a proven to fail approach.
> ...


OK. I get it! Your way is the only way! 

And then you really dial up the hubris levels by saying: "and I don't want you folks who disagree with me sullying my thread with counter-arguments."


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Some guys react weakly because they are in shock, they eventually get their balls back. The others are lost causes. They are usually conflict avoiders, who have been defined by their wife and marriage. Marriage should enhance your life not define it. It's sad to see. Their wives always know how they will react on dday and it enboldens their choice to cheat. One day our sons will look back wondering what were we thinking.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

daibai said:


> I get it....but in my case, I am sorting out what I need in the event that we divorce which is possible. please see my very recent post..sad and vengeful.
> 
> I am a business owner and have lots of 'spine' but I am trying to be practical...
> 
> ...


Definitely understand you being in stealth mode to get all ducks in a row. Think it takes a great amount of spine to do it that way actually. Most with out a spine, blow up at the AP but then fold like a house of cards once the blame shifting begins. Sounds like you are not interested in R with your S.
I wouldn't be either, it just pains me to see how much further damage is done post DDAY to the victims. If they just had a rule book and a clear understanding of why they must follow it. If only we could give them a crystal ball to see how the decisions they make from DDAY on truly control the future for themselves. Instead they seem to allow the WS to be the determining factor. Why let a moral criminal have control over your life? Especially once they are showing the denial, the lies, the trickle truth, etc... Just do not get them coming here and getting the same advice over and over, then reading others in similar situations also getting that advice, reading the success stories of the ones that implemented the program and how that worked for them, and decide regardless of the over whelming evidence that they are different..:scratchhead:


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> interesting topic.
> 
> I haven't been in the BS position , but I look forward to reading the responses.


Dang. I held my breath there when I read the first twelve words. I thought you were going to end up saying, "but I look forward to when I will be."


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Not sure about this, but due to the percentages of nice guy syndrome we see in the BS's. Is it more likely than not there is a type of personality that certain people have, that lends its self to eventually being cheated on..? Could just be a major coincidence, not that I am a big believer in those.
Certainly not trying to cast blame on those that were betrayed or saying they deserved it. Just a theory. Kind of like the elderly are easy to prey on for certain things, maybe those with nice guy syndrome are just a bit naive as they are always thinking they are in the wrong and need to change and not aware of it actually being more the unfair needs of their partners that is the problem.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Not sure about this, but due to the percentages of nice guy syndrome we see in the BS's. Is it more likely than not there is a type of personality that certain people have, that lends its self to eventually being cheated on..? Could just be a major coincidence, not that I am a big believer in those.
> Certainly not trying to cast blame on those that were betrayed or saying they deserved it. Just a theory. Kind of like the elderly are easy to prey on for certain things, maybe those with nice guy syndrome are just a bit naive as they are always thinking they are in the wrong and need to change and not aware of it actually being more the unfair needs of their partners that is the problem.


We get skewed results, here, at TAM. So attempting to hypothesise from these results cannot work. 

All the nice guys/gals we see at TAM were cheated on.

But does this mean that *all* nice guys/gals get cheated on? 

No. It just means that all the nice guys/gals on TAM were cheated on.

And why are these nice guys/gals here at TAM? Because they were cheated on.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> OK. I get it! Your way is the only way!
> 
> And then you really dial up the hubris levels by saying: "and I don't want you folks who disagree with me sullying my thread with counter-arguments."[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> OK. I get it! Your way is the only way!
> 
> And then you really dial up the hubris levels by saying: "and I don't want you folks who disagree with me sullying my thread with counter-arguments."


Why did you put the above in quotes, when you are not quoting me? :scratchhead:


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I think a lot of it has to do with the first thing that pops in their head which would be "Oh my God my life is going to change and I don't know if I can." Ending a marriage is really hard because you can't go from loving someone with all your heart to hatred in a split second. Some people need to digest what has just happened and need time to process it. I don't know of anyone who has a clear mind when their gut punched with the news that their spouse has cheated on them. Some of them think it's a bad nightmare and they will wake up from it. Some are just lost because they can't believe that their spouse made love with them the night before, told them that they loved them as they headed out the door and then hit with the news that it was a lie. That's a hard pill to swallow.

Then you have the people that would be satisfied for 50% of nothing and be grateful because they fear being alone. What they don't understand is 50% of nothing is still nothing and there is a big difference between being alone and being lonely. Different strokes for different folks. Some people will stay and continue to be humiliated and some will throw the cheater out the second they find out. 

The ones I feel so bad for are the women who are SAHM's have three or four kids and she has no income of her own so she stays for her children, puts on a good face for the kids and cries herself to sleep next to the loser that can't keep his pants up. That has to be the most miserable life you can have.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

6301 said:


> I think a lot of it has to do with the first thing that pops in their head which would be "Oh my God my life is going to change and I don't know if I can." Ending a marriage is really hard because you can't go from loving someone with all your heart to hatred in a split second. Some people need to digest what has just happened and need time to process it. I don't know of anyone who has a clear mind when their gut punched with the news that their spouse has cheated on them. Some of them think it's a bad nightmare and they will wake up from it. Some are just lost because they can't believe that their spouse made love with them the night before, told them that they loved them as they headed out the door and then hit with the news that it was a lie. That's a hard pill to swallow.
> 
> Then you have the people that would be satisfied for 50% of nothing and be grateful because they fear being alone. What they don't understand is 50% of nothing is still nothing and there is a big difference between being alone and being lonely. Different strokes for different folks. Some people will stay and continue to be humiliated and some will throw the cheater out the second they find out.
> 
> The ones I feel so bad for are the women who are SAHM's have three or four kids and she has no income of her own so she stays for her children, puts on a good face for the kids and cries herself to sleep next to the loser that can't keep his pants up. That has to be the most miserable life you can have.


I agree completely, I am sure all you say is the truth. I just wish for the crystal ball to show them what one chosen path moving forward will give them and what another chosen path would give them. Seems they all have the strength in them, just most do not realize it. Even those SAHM's that come on here go for months and years putting on the face you describe and eventually they get to the point they can't do it any longer and they find a way to do something different eventually (almost all of us have that breaking point). It is then they find the freedom, and from that further strength they have been lacking. Then and only then, they put their own needs in front of the line and then their lives begin to improve finally. Just want to come up with a way to make it easier to see, so they can save themselves the pain of the unnecessary length of time of getting to the point of putting their own needs first.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

nogutsnoglory said:


> I agree completely, I am sure all you say is the truth. I just wish for the crystal ball to show them what one chosen path moving forward will give them and what another chosen path would give them. Seems they all have the strength in them, just most do not realize it. Even those SAHM's that come on here go for months and years putting on the face you describe and eventually they get to the point they can't do it any longer and they find a way to do something different eventually (almost all of us have that breaking point). It is then they find the freedom, and from that further strength they have been lacking. Then and only then, they put their own needs in front of the line and then their lives begin to improve finally. Just want to come up with a way to make it easier to see, so they can save themselves the pain of the unnecessary length of time of getting to the point of putting their own needs first.



Too many different situations, personalities and other factors to come up with a cookie cutter approach. 

In my own situation I did not see clearly. I think there is a process that takes place in some BS'ers over time. You really can't rush it.

In my clinical counseling practise, I have a guy whom I have talked with for many sessions, we have talked about his obsessive and compulsive behavior, then out of the blue, last week he told me he figured out the he has "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder", after he read an article on the subject. WTH, we have been talking about this for months and he just now sees it, not because of hearing me talk to him about it, but from reading an article. I told him, "You don't listen very well". After he left the session I sat in my chair figuratively scratching my head.

I would also suggest that nobody can predict the end game, when it comes to infidelity. There are just too many variables.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> Too many different situations, personalities and other factors to come up with a cookie cutter approach.
> 
> In my own situation I did not see clearly. I think there is a process that takes place in some BS'ers over time. You really can't rush it.
> 
> ...


I agree with the variables, but specifically tying the finding out process, to the steps a BS takes for themselves in what ever they want. Sure the WS is a huge variable here, but that is an exposure necessary for the BS to see as well, so they can make an informed decision. If one party or the other is not willing to do the needed heavy lifting then of course none of this really matters as the relationship is dead in the water.

I think it would be nice to show the ill effects of trying to "nice" your way through it. Or blaming yourself for the marital issues that sent your spouse looking for another. Maybe a TAM pamphlet of sorts that lays out successful R, versus non. Possibly on this site they could breakdown CWI and have smaller subsections you can click on like, nice guy, doormat, 180 in progress etc... So the options and people trying the different ones are more clearly defined so a BS could come here and really match up what they are going through with how others are handling it and how that is working or not for them. Sure each person needs to look at any thread with the knowledge that all relationships are different. :scratchhead:


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I agree with Thorburn that a cookie cutter approach should be avoided. But at the same time, I try to lay out my advice in the form of likelihoods and probabilities.

Can you nice your WS back to the marriage? Apparently yes. There have been a few on here that say that's happened to them, although I won't mention any names (MattMatt). 

But how likely is that approach going to work? And even if it does get the marriage partner back in, how likely is it the BS will regret the way it was handled and wind up in the land of false R? I think the answer is very unlikely and very likely respectively. 

Sometimes the cheating is so egregious the BS needs a 2 x 4. But most often, I think the BS needs to hear a measured, non-emotional, best odds of success solution. I think based on human nature, most of them would be more receptive to that approach.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Not sure about this, but due to the percentages of nice guy syndrome we see in the BS's. *Is it more likely than not there is a type of personality that certain people have, that lends its self to eventually being cheated on..?* Could just be a major coincidence, not that I am a big believer in those.
> Certainly not trying to cast blame on those that were betrayed or saying they deserved it. Just a theory. Kind of like the elderly are easy to prey on for certain things, *maybe those with nice guy syndrome are just a bit naive as they are always thinking they are in the wrong and need to change and not aware of it actually being more the unfair needs of their partners that is the problem*.


Good points for thought.

Maybe the first bolded part can be thought of in a little different light. Maybe the "nice" spouse is willing to accept a spouse of lower character from the beginning. Maybe the fault of the "nice" spouse is not a condition that pushes a WS to cheat, but maybe they are willing to marry a potential cheater more readily. I talk about them in third person, but I would consider myself to be a former "nice" guy. I would also think a "boring" spouse would be one to push a spouse to cheat. I would hope that I didn't fall into that category.

Always thinking that it was their fault, and that they need to change. Then they change, and they are no longer a "nice" guy.  Now they have learned a valuable lesson. A silver lining to the betrayal.

Here is another question to ponder, can you be "nice" if you want a D after infidelity? If you decide that R sucks, and a D is better for you? Lol!

Being "nice" is one of my least favorite terms now. When I am now told that I am nice, I shudder. I then fire back some half-arsed comment that shows I am not "nice" at all.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

I'd agree with everyone else that there's no one size fits all. 
But I would say, at least in the case of BHs, there are many common themes. 

The victory isn't when the doormat grows a spine, it's when he begins to. Because once that process is begun, if he commits, the goal is already achieved.

Self improvement is self sustaining. So long as the goal is keeping the process going, not on the end result. 

I think doormats need to learn the power of "NO" and stop being yes men. 


No I will not give in to my anxiety of being lonely. No, I won't have the big mac. No i will not give any more. No I won't be played or manipulated. No, I won't listen to self doubt. 

Saying no to the right things builds discipline, and I think from that comes self respect and confidence. 

I don't think we wake up thinking "I'm confident now, so i'll take care of myself." If you don't have confidence, self hate is, like self improvement a self sustaining negative feedback loop. 

They think they're less than, and so they act it, and they get treated it, and so it goes back around.

You can't change what others think, but you can erode your own self doubt, whether in big or small steps. The path doesn't matter, the process does. Then it becomes a positive feedback loop, and _that's_ the goal.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Lovemytruck said:


> Good points for thought.
> 
> Maybe the first bolded part can be thought of in a little different light. Maybe the "nice" spouse is willing to accept a spouse of lower character from the beginning. Maybe the fault of the "nice" spouse is not a condition that pushes a WS to cheat, but maybe they are willing to marry a potential cheater more readily. I talk about them in third person, but I would consider myself to be a former "nice" guy. I would also think a "boring" spouse would be one to push a spouse to cheat. I would hope that I didn't fall into that category.
> 
> ...


What you wrote is nice. Shows your nice side.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> What you wrote is nice. Shows your nice side.


You son of a b...  Just kidding!!!!

Here is one more thought....

What about all of the "nice" husbands out there that have wives who never cheat? 

I see more "nice" husbands by percentage than ones those we would say are alpha.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Here is one for Awake1...

What about guys that start to grow a spine BEFORE their WW cheats? I honestly think this happened to me.

I read the book NNMNG about 6-8 months before my exWW started her PA. I had red flags of an EA, and I read it knowing that I needed a dramatic change. Lol! I was not a full-on "nice" guy, but I would say I was a shade of gray.

I look at couples I know now, and shake my head. I can't believe how bad the "nice" guy thing is to many of the men out there.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

I can't spell...NMMNG! Lol! And I mean many of the husbands are nice guys. WAAAAAYYY TOOOO many.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Why did you put the above in quotes, when you are not quoting me? :scratchhead:


It's just a convention used by writers to show that this is not what the writer said, but what the writer believes another writer was saying.

It's a journalistic thing.Probably not used by real people, but only by writers/journalists.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

badmemory said:


> I agree with Thorburn that a cookie cutter approach should be avoided. But at the same time, I try to lay out my advice in the form of likelihoods and probabilities.
> 
> Can you nice your WS back to the marriage? Apparently yes. There have been a few on here that say that's happened to them, although I won't mention any names (MattMatt).
> 
> ...


Yeah, but had I known what I was doing, would I have niced my wife out of her affair? No. Probably not.

But then, I am certain I'd have lost her (probably not to POSOM) and would I have wanted to lose the love of my wife? No. 

Would I have dated again? I know me well enough to question that.

So perhaps nicing my wife was the best option for me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> Good points for thought.
> 
> Maybe the first bolded part can be thought of in a little different light. *Maybe the "nice" spouse is willing to accept a spouse of lower character from the beginning. * Maybe the fault of the "nice" spouse is not a condition that pushes a WS to cheat, but maybe they are willing to marry a potential cheater more readily. I talk about them in third person, but I would consider myself to be a former "nice" guy. I would also think a "boring" spouse would be one to push a spouse to cheat. I would hope that I didn't fall into that category.
> 
> ...


Well, not in my case. My wife is, generally, a very moral person. So you never can tell.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> I can't spell...NMMNG! Lol! And I mean many of the husbands are nice guys. WAAAAAYYY TOOOO many.


I understood what you meant anyways lol 

Standing up for yourself shouldn't be done to save a marriage, it should be done to save you. Living as a doormat is no way to live. 

If the marriage gets saved that's just dandy. 

But I think if people don't really read no more mr nice guy, they get the wrong idea. 

It's not about being an a hole just to be an a hole. It's about recognizing that you're as capable as anyone else, and you shouldn't be relying on other people to give you value. No amount of money, no car and no woman should be used as a measuring stick of success. 

Just because the car is broken down, the wife ran off with the pizza guy, the dog crapped on the floor and the bank account is overdrawn doesn't make you any less valuable than if those things were reversed.

Nice guys have that backwards.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> It's just a convention used by writers to show that this is not what the writer said, but what the writer believes another writer was saying.
> 
> It's a journalistic thing.Probably not used by real people, but only by writers/journalists.


always thought quotations are used to quote people. silly me.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Well, not in my case. My wife is, generally, a very moral person. So you never can tell.


This really took me back. Your wife cheated and you consider her a moral person...? Could a murderer become a moral person?

Not trying to offend, it was my first thought when I read your comment and I really just never thought of it that way. I always have thought of it as someone showing how moral they actually are. I understand these same people say the right things and also make comments about right from wrong that follow moral guidelines. Are they actually moral people? Maybe another thread is needed, I just think differently I guess. I liken cheating to murder. I think you are willingly ruining the life of another, stabbing them in the back, and are as selfish as the sun is hot. Not moral. Cheating being a decision made and all, I can't excuse it as anything but an immoral decision made by an immoral person.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

The problem I had, and perhaps many others, I was not even aware of TAM or what to do when I discovered my WHs 2nd EA with the same OW 8 months apart. I was in shock as I thought we were in R. The first time I caught him it was undeniable, I saw 2 months worth of steamy texts, so he could not deny or trickle truth. That was actually much easier to deal with.

But this time it was only after I discovered the depth of what he had done as he trickle truthed me for a few weeks until I realized it. By that time I was invested in giving him another chance because I was believing what he was telling me, until I didn't.

THEN I came on here, told my story and immediately, after one post got hit with "FILE FOR DIVORCE" "LEAVE HIM" etc etc. Again I was shocked. I did not know that filing was a way to break the 'fog' at that point, I thought people were seriously telling me it was over, done, no hope. 

It took another 2 weeks to figure out exactly what had just happened and what I wanted to do about it. THEN I got my spine back.

It's too bad people don't have this advice until after the initial discovery in many cases. I would have been much better prepared.
But, I won't be fooled again!


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> I agree with the variables, but specifically tying the finding out process, to the steps a BS takes for themselves in what ever they want. Sure the WS is a huge variable here, but that is an exposure necessary for the BS to see as well, so they can make an informed decision. If one party or the other is not willing to do the needed heavy lifting then of course none of this really matters as the relationship is dead in the water.
> 
> I think it would be nice to show the ill effects of trying to "nice" your way through it. Or blaming yourself for the marital issues that sent your spouse looking for another. Maybe a TAM pamphlet of sorts that lays out successful R, versus non. Possibly on this site they could breakdown CWI and have smaller subsections you can click on like, nice guy, doormat, 180 in progress etc... So the options and people trying the different ones are more clearly defined so a BS could come here and really match up what they are going through with how others are handling it and how that is working or not for them. Sure each person needs to look at any thread with the knowledge that all relationships are different. :scratchhead:


Nah. On the BH side of the equation here, there really isn't much variance in the stories other than the amount of time a broken couple spends in limbo. Nearly every. single. time. the BH is looking for a way to reconcile with his adulterous strumpet--I'mean, special snowflake--of a wife.

That's how we work, we have to make and then compound our mistakes before learning from them. No step-by-step list can counteract that.

However, when you see threads like "i'm back and it gets worse!" or "You guys were right!" those are the threads that get people (like me) to pull our heads out of our asses.

My suggestion is to find all threads like that and put them in your sig.


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