# The Specialness of Marriage Withered



## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

My husband was my prince charming and I was his cinderella for many years. Long story, short, (well, sort of short--okay, not short at all) after a traumatic experience with a charity taking advantage of his kindness and monetary giving, it left a scar on his heart. His kindness went into what seemed like an obsession to feel valued, appreciated and to feel the "good feelings" that come from helping others. I believe he considers helping people a "calling from God". Some people are the encouragers of the world and with some people that's not their strength. My husband is a born Giver and a born Encourager. He's the kind of person that you just feel good being around because he always speaks with wisdom, confidence, and humor. 

During the years (now about 6-7 yrs since he was grossly taken advantage of by the charity), I saw my husband sort of turn into someone else. He just wasn't the same. He had lost his confidence and began to make unwise choices. He began picking up the little nuances and little sayings of the people he was helping. I could tell when he had spent alot of time with someone, because he began to talk like them. He began being inconsiderate to me, but overly considerate and went out of his way for others. Even the look on his face had changed when depression really had its grips on him. The people he helped had many challenges and marriage problems--people who had all kinds of emotional, psychological (but functioning and working everyday), and other challenges. He says helping people makes him feel value and it helps to keep his mind off of the years he feels he wasted at the charity. (The helping people part was rewarding, but the people in charge of the charity left a really bitter taste in his mouth. It was more like a fulltime job there, than not. So his history there was close to his heart). 

In one particular instance during the months after leaving the charity, (which by the way,I volunteered countless hours too-so I sort of think he lumped me into how he felt about the rest of the people in charge at the charity) I looked at his phone messages (he was always on his phone). I looked at it because his behavior had changed so drastically from the man I married (almost 30 years ago! It may sound like by now we're "old", but we married young so we're not "that old" yet). I saw text messages from a female we both know that he had been helping. --Helping to the point of her looking to him as a sort of a savior and a champion for her cause and her plight. At this point, he had begun lying about his whereabouts, and just being what I call "sneaky." He believed it was his mission to take on the problems of people and to come up with the plan to fix their problems, but he knew that I didn't approve of him allowing the boundaries to cross the line, and he knew it was detrimental to our homelife and marriage. (I confronted him a few times about it) He lies to keep confrontation away (away for a little while at least, because I always seem to find out the truth). Of course he got angry about me seeing the messages on his phone and bringing it to his attention. He said he had gotten to the place that he felt he needed to salvage his mind. (He has mental illness in his family tree) He said that if it was a place of peace to his mind, a comfort and a rest to his mind to feel appreciated by others during a hurting time in his life, then I should want that for him. He said the alternative could be that he was in a bar somewhere or running with women somewhere. He said he didn't even understand the full effects that the charity experience would have on him and he was ill-equipped to even explain to me what was happening in his mind and heart, because he didn't know himself all what was happening. He said he felt ashamed as a husband for not protecting me better during those days at the charity, and he felt like a failure. 

So trying to recover, both financially and emotionally from that hard time, he continued to help people, both male and female, and even immersed himself so far into the lives of others that he seemed to care about what was going on in their lives more than his own. He had gotten quite creative in making up stories of where his time and money was spent. Most times, he wouldn't say anything at all (so as not to "lie" about it). "Our" money became "his" money to do what he wanted to do with it. (We have a traditional home in that he was the breadwinner and I was caretaker of the home. So I guess, technically, it was his money). He talked with people to try to get help for his emotional upset, too, although he never was on medication for it. He didn't want to believe he was so far down into a depression and fought hard against allowing his mind to go there. In the meantime, he was hurting me with his lies (of which, I thought made no sense at all because if he felt compelled by God to help someone or to go above and beyond, I can understand that. Why in the world did he feel the need to lie about that? How could God be attached to lies? He said that it takes too much effort to talk to me. --And I'm sure it does, because I asked him questions that he didn't want to answer. However, I know he had a real need to feel important and capable. I also believed he was physically attracted to at least one female too. (He never admitted it though). It was attractive to feel accepted and appreciated. (You would think I was the worst wife in the world who never stroked his ego and never made him feel needed, but even he would admit he knew I've always been there to help him and support him through the years). --And I'm pretty too!

It's been quite a journey. He went from no longer talking to me beforehand about time and money given to people, (And ever since I confronted him about the text messages, I believe he looked at that instance as another betrayal of trust, on top of the charity experience, even though what I read in the text messages and have experienced after the charity ordeal with him, left me feeling a lack of trust of his decision-making for our household) to stopping communication with me, romance and laughter and fun disappeared, hiding his phone (still does to this day), no longer having a sex drive and no erection (I'm told all of this can be typical behavior of a depressed person).

The part of the marriage vows that talk about "clinging to one another and let no man separate" or "let no man put asunder" seemed to have left my husband's memory for awhile because he let alot of people come between what I thought was a beautiful, honest, wonderful marriage. We used to be a couple that counted on each other to be there for one another. We were always the couple who was an example to others and our marriage life was well respected by our friends. 

At the beginning of our marriage and many years into it, most everybody we came in contact with were aware that I was his Mrs. and he was my Mr of whom we loved with all of are hearts. We were the kind of couple that people would see eating in a restaurant and would have to come over to our table to smile and tell us how they could see how much we love each other. My husband was the type of husband who would respectfully differ with his own mother on my behalf. When I think about our love, I get sad because I feel that he's throwing the love and support and companionship away unnecessarily. It's like he wasn't aware of what he was doing or didn't care because he's been so tired and worn down and many times was in physical pain too. 

Nowadays, he realizes the need to pull back from taking on the problems and weight of others (at least to the point of establishing boundaries-something that he couldn't accept me telling him years ago), and of course it's more difficult to do now. He can't just "drop" people like the charity "dropped" him. I had said to him long ago, that he needed to be careful of how he got intertwined into different situations and people's lives because he couldn't just turn people on and off after he helped them. Obviously, he wouldn't be able to turn his own heart off either. I knew that the way he went about things was a potential hazard for our marriage (not letting people know right away and upfront, that he had a Mrs. and also just not allowing himself to get into situations that undermine our marriage and compromise his principles) He sees his mistakes now and has apologized for them.

I knew that one day it would dawn on him how damaging this was (all the while I kept in mind that his mind was fragile.) I didn't want to be a harsh voice during this time, although he knew how I felt about things. I didn't want to be the one to really push him over the edge in his emotions. I wanted him (when he was ready) to be able to share his heart again and receive positivity and love from me. 

Slowly but surely he has been able to see the people he has helped, to now help themselves. Some are thriving now, others, like the female he helped so much that looked at him as a sort of savior, has disappointed him. He found out that she had a mind of her own too and she didn't listen to his advice. (Another scenario of a lot of lost time and energy and effort). So, I began to see my husband emerge from the rubble a little bit. He's learning how to respectfully say "No" to people and he says he feels a release in his heart to pull back from people who sap his energy, (and in the end finding it was for naught). 

I do think its a wonderful thing for my husband to want to help people. I'm understanding more and more how traumatic events bring on "out of the ordinary responses" in spouses-even when they love their spouses. I also understand that the words "for better or worse" are in the vows for a reason. It's because eventually one day there will be a "for better" and unfortunately a "for worse." So given his years of wonderfulness and the person and husband he is, I was willing to try to get through this time together. 

I recently found out that once again he lied about his whereabouts so he could help somebody. This is the last person that I know of that he latched onto after the charity experience. This recent lie is what prompted me to write on this forum. I'm weary of it now. 

I've heard the line that "all men lie" and I never believed it, nor do I want to believe it now, but it has definitely come to my home too. I heard somewhere that because men and women are "wired" differently, how each handles stress is different. What men think is no big deal, women do think is a big deal and vice versa. I can understand in part "why" he lies . . . I mean, don't we all want what we want when we want it? I just can't stand the lies though. I never wanted "us" to be like everybody else. We had something different and rare and good, I thought. 

I do believe that he's a better husband than most. I know that he's trying to do better, but I also know that he's not the type to walk away from people who have expressed hopelessness without doing all that he can to help get them on the right road. I know that it's important for a man to "solve" things. I believe that he thinks if he can just get this last person's situation off his plate, then he will be freed up to focus on his home life. But now, as I said, I'm growing tired. Exasperated is probably a better word. 

I wonder if dealing with this kind of stuff is my lot in life. (I would much rather deal with this than something really horrible. Nevertheless, nothing could have ever told me that my precious husband would ever lie about anything. He still provides for me and financially does his best to give me whatever I may ask for. He still works hard and has the desire to provide for my tangible needs. I know he loves me, but of course, I want to really KNOW that he's "in love" with me. I want to feel that again. (I respond to encouraging words and have asked for more communication, but he gives gifts instead). So, okay--I'll take gifts if that's the way he shows his love. Gifts don't necessarily speak "love" to me, but I believe he's trying.

So, here we are several years later. We're better, but the sting of the journey still lingers with this one person. I'm guessing some of you out there may say, just get over it--He's a good man, nobody's perfect. This is true. He is a good man and nobody's perfect. I just wish he didn't feel that he must lie. In my mind, what kind of marriage is that? --Certainly not one where "cherish" "honor" "protection" "respect" "closeness" "soul-mate" is celebrated. These, however, are the things I want back. When he lies to "spare" me of hurt, it let's me to know that our marriage is some version of less than right. I feel our home is still divided--and a home divided cannot stand. I feel like he's not 100% in anymore. I'm wondering if his mind and heart are so altered now that he just can't or won't ever stop lying. Of course, I now have a learned behavior of questioning in my mind and heart everything he says. I don't say it out loud, but I have a hard time trusting what he says to me. How do people live with this day in and day out? I salute people who make it through an affair, with their marriage still in tack. I don't know how they do it, but God bless them. 

Sometimes I think that since we were married so young, and without the experience of other boyfriends/girlfriends, other dating, seeing the world a bit, etc. I guess it can be par for the course to want to do something else for a change--even to just try to be a "bad" guy for a change. The responsibility alone with all of these people, plus needy family and friends can make a person just want to stop the world and take a much needed break once in a while. 

When my husband was in the thick of being down in the dumps, he talked about going on the Mission field in another country somewhere. I asked him what would happen to me or our child if he did that? Later, he explained he knew that really wasn't a viable option to do. However, I have considered loving him enough to let him go and do what he felt he needed to do. I also have already long ago stopped reminding him of the joy we had together as a cohesive unit--and he admitted long ago that the separateness--isolating me from his activities-- secretive, side of his life hasn't worked well for him. 

Why do some married people take each other for granted as the years go by and don't accept the support and advice that is readily available through their spouses? --And believe it or not, I don't feel like we've been married as long as we have. I feel like our "us" always had to be put on hold due to "us" having to help somebody (family, friends, and others) our whole marriage. I know we can't go back and erase all that has transpired, but I sure wish we could. --And with this last lie with one of the same persons from 6-7 years ago, how do I get past the fact that he continues to be more loyal to their feelings and plight than to mine? How do I get past the fact that he encourages our child to visit over their house and establish relationship and he isolates me from relationship with them? Even from this person, who has been a family friend for years, I think has disrespected me by allowing isolation to take place (but of course, the responsibility is on my husband). Here, again, this person has been in the midst of traumatic circumstances that my husband has been trying help with. 

Marriage is not what I thought it was and it seems like there aren't any out there that are truly lived the way God intended. I think that people are, of course, human and basically we do the best we can. We naturally change and move through life. There are no guarantees with anybody or anything in life. I now, of course, don't think marriage has any fairy tale events. Instead, it seems to be like any other flawed experience. People are special--and I commend my husband for the joy he brings to the lives of so many people. But the institution of marriage doesn't seem to be as special as I once thought. Life can throw a loop and people hearts, minds, bodies can be changed forever--or at least for a long time. Your thoughts?


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

If your husband is lying to you and hiding things it's not because he's a man, it's because that's his choice as a person. If he was lying and was out doing something morally wrong you would be extremely upset, bue because he's lying and doing something good, you are more exhausted. Understandable. But it doesn't matter what the lying is about, you need to tell him that no matter what you are his wife, you have supported him all this time, whatever he is doing just don't lie to you about it. It doesn't create trust and you should be the priority in his life. It is good he is helping other people out, just not at the expense of your marriage and unhappiness.

It sounds like he was pretty badly burned before with the charity situation and no doubt this knocked him a lot. I hope he has been able to talk to you or someone about this thoroughly so he is not harbouring any related feelings.

Some people try to live the way god intended, or even if they're not religious, just trying to do the right thing. We all make mistakes along the way it's impossible to be perfect. Marriage can have a fairytale ending, but it's not always roses in between. But I think the fact that couples, like you, have remained together through thick and thin is what marriage is about. The ups and the downs. You can create your own fairytale. Unrealistic expectations, and sometimes at the time we don't know we are making them, always fall short at some time.

At this stage in your marriage, make sure you've had a really good talk to your husband about everything. How you feel. How he feels. It is great that he wants to help people, just try to help him gain some perspective. So it doesn't filter into your marriage. Let him know that you need him too.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks so much Gratitude for your insight and for taking the time to write. I really appreciate it and will take it to heart. The talking part will be difficult, at least in the past it was, because he won't generally take the time for us to talk. He generally shuts the conversation down quickly. --Or he may say to me, Ok, we can meet for lunch or something and talk and then call to say he's too busy at work to meet me. He will promise that we can talk later, and later never comes. He's not willing to share his heart with me.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

That's because his needs and desires are being met by helping other people all the time and he's overlooked yours. You are his wife and his partner. While he's helping everyone else out he's forgetton to take care of you. He's taking you for granted that you're always there that he's not even taking the time to listen to what you need from him. He might be doing a service to everyone else, but he's being selfish in his marriage. 

There are different ways you can try to communicate your feelings. Counselling where he has to listen, writing a letter, talking on holiday. Anywhere that he only has the opportunity to focus on you. He needs to stop, and listen. The longer you go on feeling your needs aren't being met, and he won't even take the time to listen, the more resentful you will get. It's not that he's helping other people. It's that you're being put on the back burner. He needs to appreciate you in his life and give more of himself to you. It's a partnership. 

Where does this desire to help people stem from? Not that it's not great, but he does it so much whilst overlooking everything else that I wonder why he feels he needs to dedicate his life to everyone else.

You can only keep trying to communicate your feelings in every way possible, and if he doesn't want to listen, you may eventually get worn down. He needs to know that.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

*Dean* said:


> It doesn't happen by him
> feeling like he is getting pressed to answer questions that he
> knows your not going to like the answer to.


I think it's great advice for her to get involved in his work and try to spend quality time. But he should be at least taking the time to listen and talk to her that he is giving to everyone else. It can't be a one way street. He should be able to answer her questions. She needs to feel valued and important too, and if she is going to keep reaching out to try and get closer it can't all be on his terms and her making the effort.

But you're right, it's a start and hopefully he will feel her presence more and start paying attention.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Gratitude, he's aware that he's being selfish where I'm concerned. He told me one time after the charity experience that he needed to salvage himself (meaning whatever he needed to feel better is what he believed he needed to do to take care of himself-whether I liked it or not or understood it or not. For all intents and purposes,I can understand that, but when I saw him clear his schedule (not once, but several times over the years for different people) because a friend needed to talk-that kind of thing hurts me). He had made many comments over the years of selfishness and he knows it, but he said that he didn't want to be that way. He told me that it had to "be about him" but he also has followed up years later, saying he knows he's getting better and that things are not going to be like they are with us forever. Dean, more recently, I could see a glimpse of the man I married shine through. Thoughtful, considerate, patient, kind- etc. Since the new year came in, I could tell he wanted to get his home on track. --And yes, you're right, there were more times that he asked my opinion on things. Things had gotten what I would call "kind of nice" and then I found evidence of that lie I told you about. I was responding to his recent thoughtfulness and just plain nice to be around-ness, and then I felt that knockdown again. And again, maybe he's simply trying to close out that last big situation, I don't know for sure. I've learned over the years not to just assume the worse. In this instance though, it was such a blatant lie. And like I said before in my first post-I think it's just senseless; ridiculous! Help people already! Why lie about it? --And of course, my mind fluctuated over the years with a bit of insecurity. However, if I fed into that my mind would probably go bonkers, so I've tried to remain calm and for the most part--positive. 

Gratitude, he saw him father beat his mother as a child. He had to come to her defense when he was 6 years old. As a teenager my husband took on the responsibility of most of the house bills. He made sure the gas and electric stayed on for the family. He took on the role of a father in his childhood home. His mother eventually moved out and his father stayed at the family home until he passed away several years ago. My husband has been watching over his mother ever since and still provides financially for her.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Toni Toni said:


> Th The talking part will be difficult, at least in the past it was, because he won't generally take the time for us to talk. He generally shuts the conversation down quickly. --Or he may say to me, Ok, we can meet for lunch or something and talk and then call to say he's too busy at work to meet me. He will promise that we can talk later, and later never comes. He's not willing to share his heart with me.


So you need to talk to him about that and tell him how much it's effecting the way you view your marriage.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gratitude said:


> He needs to stop, and listen. The longer you go on feeling your needs aren't being met, and he won't even take the time to listen, the more resentful you will get. It's not that he's helping other people. It's that you're being put on the back burner. He needs to appreciate you in his life and give more of himself to you. It's a partnership.
> 
> You can only keep trying to communicate your feelings in every way possible, and if he doesn't want to listen, you may eventually get worn down. He needs to know that.


This is what happened in my marriage. My ex cared about everything but us/me. It got old, I grew resentful and I couldn't do it anymore.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Toni Toni said:


> he saw him father beat his mother as a child. He had to come to her defense when he was 6 years old. As a teenager my husband took on the responsibility of most of the house bills. He made sure the gas and electric stayed on for the family. He took on the role of a father in his childhood home. His mother eventually moved out and his father stayed at the family home until he passed away several years ago. My husband has been watching over his mother ever since and still provides financially for her.


And you think this is the reason he wants to help people out to the extent that he does? It's very confusing when he says it's something that he has to do, whether or not you like it. He admits it is selfish. When talking about what is essentially a selfless act. So he is doing it then for the benefit of how it makes him feel? 

My husband came from an abusive home similar to your husbands, he was the oldest of 6 so took on the parenting role. He was also in the crossfire of the abuse. He does not financially provide for his mother now though. He seems to be the opposite of your husband. He will help people out sure, but he is very independant and focused just on our family so he can raise his child the right way with love and distrusts a lot of people. I just wonder WHY your husband feels this overwhelming desire. Perhaps he would benefit from IC. Until he lets go whatever it is inside his head, he can not fully focus on you. It seems you have done what you can do.

Your wanting communication and to feel loved and valued shouldn't be up for debate. It shouldn't be whenever he has time. Other important things to do. Maybe you feel you can't get too upset with him over this as he is out helping people. Well, you most certainly can. It's not what he's doing that is the issue, it's what it's taking away from you. And the lying. It is your life and your marriage too. Be as assertive as you can, tell him plainly how you feel and what is he going to put on the table to bring this relationship together. Maybe he wouldn't take you for granted and put more of an effort in if you weren't around so much tending to his needs. I'm really sorry you feel like this. Nobody gets married to feel alone.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Dean, you're absolutely right--That IS how I've handled most times. I've had a few outbursts over the years too though, but not alot. As a matter of fact, I remember him one time saying that it did make him feel kinda good to see me get upset (jealous) over another female's words of admiration for him helping and giving advice that put her and her family in touch with the real help she needed. I sort of tucked that comment away and made note of it, though. For the most part in knowing my husband, I know he considers loud, in your face talk from a female (can I say) "un-ladylike". It's a turn off. He hates that. --And it's not my personality to do that. And for my marriage, an argumentative, loud, yelling, telling him off kind of experience would not work for either of us. 

However, Gratitude your last paragraph on your one of your posts is key. (Sorry, I'm new to this forum so I don't know how to highlight, cut and paste the words of past posts yet) I DO need to be more assertive and I didn't get married to feel alone. Needless to say, I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place dealing with this. It's not the worse thing in the world by any stretch, but it is a real dynamic for me. I'm so glad I found this website so that I can talk it out. I'm grateful to all who have posted and I feel better just getting it off my chest. 

Over the years since the charity experience, my husband has said alot of things due to the unhealthy state of mind he was in. He apologized for some of it and some of it that I brought up later to his attention, he said he didn't even remember saying. In fact, he was surprised at some of the things I brought up that he had said to me. He reiterated that he was in such a bad way at the end of that charity experience that he didn't know if he was coming or going. What do you make of his comment about feeling good because I showed some jealousy? Do you think it was just an off the cuff comment due to the state he was in? or do any of you out there (and Jellybeans thank you for your comments too. I did look at the links and got some information. Thank you) think that after all of these years, and without the open communication we had before, think that he just wanted to do some things he wanted to do and likes to do, on his own that he believed was "freeing and exciting" for him, but just didn't know how to tell me? Was it simply seeking a thrill and seeing me a little jealous--was likewise, a thrill? 

I don't know. For years, he's been known to think I was a mind reader. Truth is, many times, I was right there on point with what I thought he needed. Maybe this time in our lives has been just as difficult for him as it has for me in the sense that perhaps, I wasn't picking up his cues as keenly as I've done previously.--And maybe he just wasn't used to that from me.

Throughout our marriage until this part, we knew when each other needed the other and when we were puzzled about something or had something on our minds. We took time to get clear understanding--no guesswork involved. 

When I say (in previous posts), prince charming and cinderella--marriage example to others, working at the charity together, and although I take care of the home, he owns a small business so I'm in and out of there all the time and have been for years (helping out there too)--so we've been together all of our married life. Maybe that's it! Maybe since I've always "been there" to support and to jump in with a helping hand myself, maybe he just couldn't bring himself to communicate to me "I love you babe, but I want to help people on my own, see it through to the end so I can have the satisfaction of a finished project so I can boost my confidence in the man that I am". Maybe since he couldn't bring himself to say that to me because in his mind it would "hurt my feelings too much" since we were together alot, he was forced to keep that "need" from me and subsequently, when the problems of other people unexpectedly continued to snowball (even surprising to him-thinking it would be "over soon and he could go back to his life") he felt there was no other choice, but to lie about it. Your thoughts?

My marriage was such a highlight and source of happiness to me. I would tell him so he knew that my favorite place to be in the whole world, was in his arms. If there's any truth to the scenario I wrote about above, it makes sense to me that things could happen that way. I would have been very hurt that he didn't want me beside him in tackling a project. As it turns out, the same result occurred anyway--I'm extremely hurt--but the clear communication could have eliminated alot of the hurt. Remembering our love and commitment and honor and protection for one another along the way would have eliminated the rest of it. 

So everyone, do I tell him I know he lied about XYZ and get the conversation going? (I've already been a little distant so he knows somethings up, but he hasn't asked me anything). Do I not tell him right away, try once again to start a conversation on a more peaceful note and slowly and calmly go into a discussion about the lie? Do I put on a cheerful face and voice and never tell him about it, but rather, what Gratitude suggested in the first post-- say "that I am your wife, I have supported you all this time, whatever you are doing just don't lie to you about it. It doesn't create trust. I should be the priority in your life. It is good that you are helping other people out, but it's not good to do it at the expense of our marriage and my unhappiness"? (I'm leaning more towards this one, except I would tell him what the lie was, with alot of love and without judgment.) --And then, simply move forward and try not to let it occupy my thoughts anymore.

I've already begun to pick up a couple of hobbies to try to create more acquaintances for myself, so as not to focus and mourn the loss of what we were so much. Any other suggestions?


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks so much Dean. I appreciate your help.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Question: Have any of you had the experience whereby one spouse was not going to, under any circumstances, modify behavior or change behavior that clearly was hurting the other spouse-- and it didn't lead to divorce? For those of whom haven't gotten a divorce, how did you deal with it and are things going well now, despite it?


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

:Thanks so much Dean. This gives me alot to think about.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Toni Toni said:


> Question: Have any of you had the experience whereby one spouse was not going to, under any circumstances, modify behavior or change behavior that clearly was hurting the other spouse-- and it didn't lead to divorce? For those of whom haven't gotten a divorce, how did you deal with it and are things going well now, despite it?


In these cases, the one being hurts ends up being dissatisfied in the marriag eand just "tolerates" the bad behavior.

Sad

My ex never changed/modified his behaviors despite me crying/wanting marriage counselling/leaving. He simply did not CARE enough. He told me this is how he was and either I accepted it or I didn't. There was never any level of compromise. That pained me. But I realized it would have been worse to stay.

This is why I think if you truly love someone, you will be willing to bend/meet them halfway. When you don't, you don't really care about your spouse--especially if what you are doing is causing them PAIN and you know it.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Toni Toni said:


> Question: Have any of you had the experience whereby one spouse was not going to, under any circumstances, modify behavior or change behavior that clearly was hurting the other spouse-- and it didn't lead to divorce? For those of whom haven't gotten a divorce, how did you deal with it and are things going well now, despite it?


The only reason it wouldn't lead to divorce is because you have chosen to accept that your partner will not change or listen. You can only say or do so much from your end, if he doesn't want to listen, if he agrees that he is selfish...what can you do.

If you choose to continue, as most do because no one really comes here and wants to divorce, most people are trying to find advice how to better the situation - then you are choosing to accept that things will not change. You have to stop trying because you will just become exhausted and resentful. Work around what you do have and accept this is the way it is.

You shouldn't have to though. If he loves you, he should listen to you. Make time for you. Make your needs a priority over his sometimes.

Start by maybe trying to set one night a week up with him. A date night as such. Just you and him. No matter if someone else calls up needing something, that night is dedicated for you and him. Go somewhere nice and talk. Have a bit of fun. It might be a better way to communicate. 

Realistically though, if he knows he's not paying you attention, lying and/or making himself a priority - he is the only one who can change his attitude. You sound defeated. I am angry at your husband. I want to tell him to wake up. Maybe you need to go away for awhile, or back off, or something, anything, to make him realise you might not always be around and he needs to start taking this seriously. Resigning yourself to a husband who cares about himself more than you isn't what you deserve. You deserve love and respect, and you shouldn't have to ASK for it. I hope coming here has helped in someway to just getting it off your chest. We're always here, none of us are perfect but we listen and help if we can, take what you need from posts, we all have different opinions. 

I've read a lot of posts here and people have some expectations of their partner, and you think your need is not that great like you said in your original post. We would tell you to just get over it. No. Not being heard, or a priority, or loved enough, is one of the saddest things I've read. I feel for you. One of the biggest qualities about my husband is that he listens to me. Really, really listens and adores me. It is a very special and humbling feeling. Because I was living at hostels as a teenager and neither of my parents at that time wanted me. I know what it feels like to be unloved. And it's not acceptable. If your husband can't see that, then it's his loss. I'm sure he does love you. Does he love you enough to put you first? Does he love you enough to want to hear your needs and address them? If the answer is no, then he doesn't deserve you.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

I just re-read your post about the other female, and how his lying is what brought you here. And his lack of care towards you and your needs/feelings. Do you think he is or has had an affair? I'm not saying he is, I'm asking if you think he is, or if you think the lying is him hiding something.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gratitude is right about how you deserve to be in a marriage of equals, not 1 where he just takes.

If this continues, and it may, either you will just be "settling" or you will end up a WAW.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Thank you Gratitude for your encouraging post and yes, all of the posts are helping me. I know my husband definitely has gotten attached to other females and their families. I don't believe he has had sex with anyone. (Plus remember he hasn't been able to sustain an erection for quite some time--I'm not sure if that means much these days, but I do know penetration has been unsuccessful for him for a long while).

One time a female (whom we both know and was helping) set up a meeting with me because she wanted to "tell me something and clear the air". She had recently become a Christian and she wanted to come clean I guess. She told me that she wanted me to know that she loved my husband because of the encouragement and patience and help he gave her during a hard time. (This person, along with her family, have also written me a Thank You note for providing help in the past--although my husband never gave it to me. I never knew they had taken the time to say thanks to ME. I just happened upon it in his office. So in this instance at least, and there may have been other times, he did let the people know that it wasn't just him providing help--that it was a unit venture from him and his wife) Wow, this was a big plus in my book because this was the way he used to handle things. Anyway, she had said in this meeting that it wasn't a romantic love she had for my husband, but it was indeed love she had for him. She told me that my husband said to her that he's been with only one woman in this world-his wife- and that he will not be with anyone else. 

I was seething inside when she said this to me because of that kind of conversation--that level of conversation--was had between them in the first place! I'm thinking where, when, why, how did they get to THIS conversation?! And although it may have appeared like she was trying to be the "good guy" delivering good news and trying to appear "innocent of any wrong doing or wrong thoughts" --coming clean, as it were--I saw right through what I believe was a false intent. In my gut, I believe that she was counting on me blowing up and lashing out at her. I believe this was a design to swoop my husband up for herself. I think she wanted him and if he had said yes, I believe her new found Christian walk would have been out the window quick. I believe if I so much as yelled at her even a little bit, she would have gone crying straight to him and I believe he would have gone to her defense against me. I believe she would have had him and me exactly where she wanted us. . . and that of course, is on the outs with one other. 

She was a person who worked hard for our small business. She was humble and soft spoken and had real struggles in her life. My husband had been her advocate in being treated unfairly in the city we're in. I think his kindness solidified for her that she'd never met a guy like this before and that enough was enough--it was time to stop being cordial and polite and it was time to be front and center stage on his arm and in his bed. If he would have seen her in tears after speaking with me, I believe it would have ruffled his feathers. (This was during the time when he was really isolating me and deep into trying to prove himself as saving the day.) Her intent didn't work though. She said he let her know that there were many other people who have drawn close to him and believed they loved him in the past because of his kind heart. I, simply agreed with those words and let her know that yes, she wasn't the only person who grew fond of him. I wanted her to know that her needs and relationship with him weren't any more special than others had been in the past. So I said that in a nice way, thanked her for the meeting, hugged her (she was immediately taken aback when I did that), smiled, reassured her that she was going to be okay, and congratulated her on her recent salvation. She left our meeting and that was that. 

If you ask me if I believe he's had an "emotional affair"? I would have to say yes--particularly in the thick of immersing himself into the lives of others, so that he could feel good about himself. However, knowing emotionally he was in someone else's corner and heart and they were in his was another tough thing for me to deal with. But, a physical relationship would have been a deal breaker for me. I would not stay in my marriage and he knows that. I told him so when we were youngsters.

As I said in previous posts, he recognizes some of the mistakes he's made with boundaries and just allowing himself to be pulled in. To me, it's common sense, that if someone gets help for their needs from me, the likelihood of them calling on me again is pretty good. My husband's school of thought is that we, as people, have an obligation to be our brother's keeper. Whatever we have to give, God provided it and we should give it. I think he also thought (naively) that once he gave someone advice, money, guidance, referrals, whatever to make their situation better, then they would go on their merry way all fixed. He says he didn't realize it would be situation after situation after situation. As he got closer to people and their situations, it didn't take long for the people to become his "family" and their situations to become "his" situations. The bleakness of others kept his mind off of his own bleakness (his own down in the dumps-ness). To me it's a classic example of when a mom tells her children to be careful who they hang around because their habits and lifestyle will rub off on you. --And also when a mom or dad says to a child, to watch out and choose friends carefully, because friends can bring you down. Now our marriage has gone down like those of the people he gave advice and resources to. When he got home from the day, he was always exhausted, drained of energy and effort and patience for me and his own family. 

So, he ended up "putting nothing in and getting nothing out" from his family, and solidifying the relationships and love with other families. He was very vulnerable to outside influences. People's smiles made him smile and made him want to do more to see people smile, which made him smile more. What a cycle! (Meanwhile, I was crying. Over time he became more aware of this pattern and often told me "I don't have anything left for my own family--I can't keep doing this. It's not right.")

Today in thinking about the whole thing and over the past couple of days in writing on this site, it has gotten me to really sit down and think on some of the things I want for myself out of life--and I'm going to reflect all the more this coming week. 

I know that some people don't fully recover emotionally or mentally from traumatic experiences. It's hard for me to believe that my husband may be one of them. The juggling in my heart of, is this coming from the "bad experience emotion"  or is this just the "new husband" way now? is really difficult for me to gage. Also, I'm torn with, is this the "better for worse" part that I need to hang in there with because there's light appearing at the end of the tunnel or is this the "tough love time that a loving wife needs to assert--seeing a trap of destruction (the willingness to deceive part) and needs to by any means necessary screech to her husband to wake him up because he's headed down an unGodly path-- a path he would thank me later for thwarting? 

He knows I've been patient and has thanked me for it over the years. Is more patience yet needed or is pushing needed?

He just called me as I was writing this post, and I could feel the love and adoration I still have for him deep down inside when I hear his voice. He talked of his feeling so thankful for today. He talked about doing some things at the house to make it nice for the new season coming in. There's an optimistic tone in his words and there's a smile radiating from his voice. He talked about not wanting to complain about his aching back--saying that he's glad it's from working and not from being bedridden, lying in one spot somewhere. I know he means well. As one wise woman put it, "people mean well, but they don't do so well".

I will add to that and say, "people mean well, but sometimes they don't do so well." 

I want a marriage that is honest and trustworthy and full of integrity and loyalty to the marriage. I believe he wants that too, but I think he doesn't feel he can get to that anymore. I think he feels that the situations he deals with (in his own mind as well as the situations of others) are too complicated to explain to me and I simply wouldn't be able to comprehend his need/want of him using time and resources to such a level. But I want a marriage that clearly exudes two people who prefer being with each other more than anybody else on earth. (I'm not saying we always need to be together, but I am saying, when the two people are together it's clear that they're enjoying each other and want to be there together. --And when any of the above is unclear, I want a marriage where the two people actually communicate what's going on. For ex: You know you're my heart, babe--I'm going to take a day to talk to so and so about so and so and it may seem like I'm putting you off. Please know that that's not my intention. So and so are about to be put outdoors and need shoes and a coat for their little one. They asked me how to go about doing the paperwork to get housing, so I'm going to meet with them tonight, etc. If I even heard an inkling of this type of communication, my heart could be settled and content. 

I hate the deception and sneakiness and the wondering if he's lying, and if so, why? To me, the lack of common courtesy to communicate and to be considerate of me speaks very loudly "I am fully aware that I'm choosing other people over my wife. Even though I could explain myself, and even think at times I should explain myself, I won't because this is who I am--I help people. If I was the President of the United States, my wife wouldn't expect me to explain myself. (He said that last line to me one time).

I think it speaks loudly, "I don't believe in my wife anymore to be the person I fell in love with of whom is very understanding and always has been, is the one person in the world I can be completely be open with and of whom I completely trust with everything that I have and am. Afterall, there's more people in the world than just my wife and family. Alot of times, other people are closer to you than your own family, anyway. (He said that last line to me once before also). In fact, I just feel more connected to other people than I do my wife. She tends to say the wrong thing at the wrong time, and that just gets on my nerves. I really don't want to talk to her, so I won't". These are the kinds of sentiments his words--non-words, and actions have said to my heart in the past. I'm sure these are not 100% accurate, but nevertheless, it's a true sense of what my heart feels sometimes. Ironically, he counsels others about their relationships.

Perhaps he would be surprised at all that I feel inside. Perhaps he knows full well about everything, but doesn't really think the effect on me is "that" bad. I've heard him say to our child, "all that I put mommy through putting up with my quirks, I really want to get her this or that because she deserves something really nice." Honestly, everyone, I just think he's trying to find his way back to a healthy place (after the charity experience). I'm aware that there isn't a step by step all-inclusive manual for how to handle every kind of misfortune, obstacle, tragedy, etc. that can possibly occur in the course of a human's life. How those things affect a person on the inside is unique to that particular person. There are real scars and wounds that people have--that others just wouldn't understand.

In my husband's case, it has left him with some "emotional amnesia". He has forgotten alot about who we were together. He's forgotten that I'm a real person just like him and the people he helps. He has forgotten his love for me (and he probably doesn't recognize my love for him, because many times he shuts me out and I don't either have opportunity to do what I would do or either I don't have the "feelings" to do what I could do.) No, I don't think he loves me enough to put me first and to listen and address my needs right now. I don't think he believes that I, too, can possibly be affected on the inside by all of this. Sadly, I honestly don't think his mind will allow him to believe it.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm so glad you came here. Just getting it all out can put your thoughts into words and help you to try to make sense of exactly how you're feeling.

If you think he doesn't know the full extent of your feelings, find that time for a full on heart to heart. Find it. Lay it out. If he understands you were even contemplating your future without him, he should be willing to listen and really hear you. Up until now he just knows that you're always there. Yes, but what if you weren't?

This is a pretty unique situation. I think we are placed on this earth to help people yes, but also to guide them to help themselves. There needs to be an off switch. If he was upfront and honest about everything, and you felt valued a bit more, I'm sure things would be a lot different. These are not hard things to do. You are really not asking for much. So why is it so hard for him to put more time into helping you?

Helping people is wonderful, truly. Not at the expense of your wife's happiness though. He married you and committed to you, he needs to follow through with that too. You are not less significant or important than the people he helps.

I think in relation to the other woman, you handled it very well. Some women are manipulative and you were well aware of this. Good on you. 

I hope you will find resolution soon and the inner peace you are searching for. As the saying goes around here on TAM, you teach people how to treat you. Re-write the book. For better or worse? Yes, as long as it's not a constant one way street. I hear through your posts the love you have for your husband, and now is his time to show his love for you. In that will lie your answer. If he can't put you first, will you?


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Wow, Gratitude, thank you, thank you, thank you for your post. It speaks right to the heart of the issue. I'm so glad I came here too! In regards to helping "not at the expense of your wife's happiness", my husband once told me that he often wonders how/why some wives can accept the personal sacrifices of people like the disciples, who dropped everything to walk with Jesus, (we know at least one of them was married, because the Bible speaks about Jesus healing Peter's mother in law), or of Martin Luther King, or of the abolitionists of years ago who lied to help free the slaves of the south? I think in these kinds of cases, most people shared the vision with their spouses. I believe God made the institution of marriage, so why would it be okay for us to pollute it. I think it's very much the heart choice of man/woman to pollute a marriage, and not what God intends, despite the many distractions that may arise in life. 

Here's a thought I have: I have thought of taking time to really research renting an apartment in the area--a place to just go and free my mind. I don't want to "separate" from my husband or get a "divorce". I don't want to replace him and I certainly know he's better than most others I could possibly meet. I would still take care of my responsibilities at home, cook and be home at night, and our child wouldn't need to know anything was different. I thought of telling my husband that I have read his choice loud and clear that the lives of other people are much more important to him, than my life and needs. --so important that he's not willing to be honest with me about them. I would thank him for being the most wonderful, precious person in the world to me and that I love him so very much. I would recount to him a list of things I love about him (things that I haven't seen in a long time, but I want to remind him that I respect that they were there and I respect that he's doing the best that he can). I wouldn't tell him to stop any behavior. Instead, I would let him know that I know he can't go back at this point and un-love and un-give the heartfelt emotions and effort he has invested into other people. I know that the relationships are far established now. I would tell him I love him enough to resign to his choices. I would let him know that this is his home and he shouldn't have to feel like he has to lie, sneak, and cover up anything. He's a free individual in this world and shouldn't have to feel like he needs to do that just because he has a wife. And then I would let him know that I have a place--a little place where I can go when it's hard for me to be in the surroundings of all that we have built together at home. I would tell him the place is simply a place for me and my mind and my heart to "just be" sometimes. I would let him know that I intend to complete my responsibilities at home and that our child doesn't have to know about it. I would let him know that when our child is at school and he's available and wants to come to my place, he's welcome to do so. (I would not give him a key to my apartment).

Just like people have vacation homes or homes in other states or take weekenders, this is what this place would represent to me. My guess is that he will be highly upset over this. My guess is he would not understand it. My guess is he would think it was alot of money leaving our home unnecessarily. My guess is he would wonder what I was doing while I was there . . . if I was having visitors or if any inappropriate conversation or behavior was occurring.

I would tell him it was simply a place of peace for my mind, nothing more.

This is just some of what I've been thinking as I've been posting here. Just maybe he would begin to hear my heart. On the other hand, maybe he will be so mad that he tells me, "No, you're not going to come back to take care of any responsibilities--if you have another place, then leave and stay there for good." Maybe he would change the locks on our home's door. I don't know. But these are certainly some of the consequences I will need to think about.

Your thoughts?


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

It's risky. Is it more about wanting a place outside of the home for your own peace, or an act that will show him you are serious but without actually separating or leaving the home? I can understand both trains of thought. To your husband it will seem like a separation and you may end up dealing with that scenario before you are ready. I'd also worry about two things - a) you find that having another place to go to isn't helping and you are back at square one, just now a lot of money down, or b) you will eventually emotionally distance yourself, going home only to cook and take care of the house etc. It may become like two lives. That is good as if in the long run you may want to separate, so you will be more prepared. But if you are hoping for a sort of reconciliation through it, which could happen, the risk is it may not work. Your husband will ultimately see it as leaving him.

I know you've resigned yourself to him not changing, so you are trying to find ways to cope and get through it without having to leave and for your own peace of mind. Getting another place is definitely another option. An unusual one, a risky one, but no doubt an understandable one.

A suggestion is tell him what you wrote above (and if you want to get it all out without being interrupted and remembering everything, and being heard, you can write a letter) and wait for his reaction. Tell him you are thinking of getting another place because you just can't handle it anymore. Give him a wake up call. Because you are serious, and he needs to know that. Don't go ahead with any lease perhaps just yet. That plan will always be there, you can do it anytime. It's time to shake him a little. If he tells you bluntly, you will not be a priority, it is not going to change - then absolutely try the idea of another place. Ultimately it's going to get your prepared to leave in the long run. It probably will not make your marriage any stronger or better. It will most likely go in the other direction. But if he is unwilling to behave like a commited husband to you, he is not leaving you with a whole lot of choices.

You're stuck in a tough spot. You don't want to leave, but you can not get what you need. He is refusing. And it's not a car, or a house. It's the basic concept of marriage and being respected, loved and prioritised. Baby steps. Do whatever you can, all the ideas and thoughts are great because you are facing your feeling and issues and moving forward. Keep putting one foot in front of the other.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Marriage counselling would be a really good idea if you could get him to agree to go. If you find the right one, it will give you an hour a week away from the house and everyone else's problems to just focus on the two of you and he would have to really listen and with the counsellor, maybe you could find a solution and awareness to come back together. Counselling may be a good idea before making any decisions. Would that be an option?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I haven't read all the responses, but I do not think this specific problem is all that unusual--a partner who needs outsiders to see him as "a perfect angel, a savior," while ignoring his family.

Definitely start marriage counseling. 

Do not try to remain in the marriage if he cannot or will not change with counseling. It would go one of two ways: just too painful and too soul-crushing, or you would emotionally disconnect and be vulnerable to an affair. Too many people have tried to live with something that *should NOT be lived with.* 

If somehow you can get past his behaviors and love him anyway, great. But don't try to stay if you find yourself disconnecting (wondering if what you feel for him is "love" is one indicator that you are disconnecting; finding his actions bother you less and less b/c you just don't care that much anymore, things like that).

Good luck.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Get marriage counseling. He doesn't seem to understand the impact his behavior is having on you. The problem won't go away if you guys don't address it. Talk to him and do so with a counselor who might be able to help you guys reconnect.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

I really thank everyone for taking the time to write to me. Yes, I think counseling is the next step. I really don't want to begin yet another conversation about this same old thing on our own because it seems to always go awry. I agree that having another place is risky and I'm really just attempting to talk it out (brainstorm) with myself. I've already been feeling the disconnect and I've already told my husband on several occasions that I'm so lonely. I feel like I'm in the world un-protected and thrown-away. I know that reading his phone messages several years ago was a biggie in his mind. That was the first huge argument we had over the spending inappropriate time and resources with the female that was going through so many difficulties. Since then, even though he recognized the need for boundaries, I don't think he ever quite looked at me the same. He really felt a violation when I did that, but he didn't recognize the violation I felt--and still doesn't, as far as I know.

It's quite ironic though, because I believe my husband would be more inclined to go to counseling than I would. He mentioned it once before when a friend told him that he and his wife went. I resisted the conversation at that time because my husband, as I said before, tended to pick up and do things that some people around him did. (By the way, for years he was a confident, considerate, strong, protective man. He was a true leader and he loved his wife. It wasn't in his usual character to follow after other people like that) So, he made an assumption that I would agree to go when he told me we were going to go to a marriage event on such and such a date. He wasn't particularly gentle and didn't Ask me, so it felt to me like more of an obligation that he had to get over and done with, and not a sincere request of his heart to really strengthen our marriage. I don't think he sincerely wanted to change any habits that were forming at the time. Of course, I could be wrong, but I know I've been attempting to have a simple conversation with my husband for years, and nothing came of it. And he had promised to take time for us to talk for many years, and nothing came of it. After investing a great deal of conversation, time and energy and resources into his friend, then all of a sudden my husband wanted to suggest us having yet other conversations with a counselor. What happened to just talking with your wife once in awhile? I told him, No, I don't want to go to a counselor. I feel invisible--like I don't matter. Invisible in my childhood, invisible to my obstetrician when I had the baby years ago, and invisible now that I'm a bit older. I feel spit on. (I know I sound a little more resentful in this post. I just became aware of another lie yesterday).

When he talked about a counselor back then I resisted also because I felt like after all of this time and the fact that he's had my utmost support and loyalty and love, and I've had his, he was now going to allow himself to believe in his heart some negativity and ill feelings about me and towards me? I was deeply offended and hurt that our marriage was no longer one of the rare, special gems. It's taken me awhile to think about my marriage differently and not break down and cry. So, now the disconnect is finally occurring and actually now, as I said, I really don't want to try to talk. At this moment I'm thinking that: we talk with a counselor if he wants to, and if not, I guess it's okay that we don't talk. I'm feeling like if we try to talk about the things we really need to get clear and have understanding about (in other words--talk about the things that really matter--matter to me, at least), what's going to stop him from telling me more lies-- Senseless lies about helping people. Why would I even bother? 

Sad. I can see him trying so much to juggle so many things. (Trying to be all things to all people-including trying to do some things to please me) For example, he took me out during the holidays to the theater to see a play. We both soon fell asleep though from just being able to sit still for a minute, and tired from the daily grind. I thought it was a nice gesture though and then I heard that "obligation to get it over and done with sound" again. He quoted to me the price of the theater tickets on our ride back home!! After all the money and time and energy and effort that leaves our home on a daily basis, he quoted to Me, prices of some tickets. I'm just venting everyone. I'm sorry. Thank you for being here. I know that I'm complaining. I'll try and let all of you know how it turns out. Thank you again so much for being here.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Just wondering if you log back on in the next day or so if there's been any progress? Just wondering how you are


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

It brought tears to my eyes that you took the time to check on me Thank you Gratitude I have just about finished my long, long letter to my husband and am in the process of deciding when is the best time to give it to him. I also am keenly aware of how he's treating me--every move and every gesture, every word he's making. I have to say that I believe everything he has said or done in the past few days is genuine and is coming from a sincere place. I feel like if there was a way to dissect his brain and heart, it would be found that his intentions and motives to help and give to others as much as he has is truly Heaven sent. I feel like in his humaness, he is simply oblivious to the fact that how he goes about doing those things and how he poorly communicates to me about it, is hurtful and damaging to me and our marriage. In other words, (although some selfishness has been mixed in through the years, particularly after the charity experience) for the most part, I believe there's a supernatural thing going on inside of his natural body. Those kinds of things are always difficult to explain to people and difficult for people to believe and comprehend. Hence, stories form, assumptions abound, lies are told because it's just unexplainable in human terms. This may very well be the case for us. 

I heard somewhere once that when you let loose on your husband and tell him all of the bad things he has done and tear him down with your words and tone, those things become a self-fulfilling prophecy to him and he will fulfill all that you've brought him down to. As I contemplate on everything today and re-read the letter I wrote, I'm thinking that I will let him know that I love him and that I know that deep inside of him is the man I married, full of integrity, honor, love and protection of me. Then I will give him a simple recommendation of marriage counseling for us to find that man again and to awaken the "us" again. I believe he will agree to go. I will save the letter and certain conversation particulars for when we go to counseling (which I will suggest it be immediately.) The letter will be a reminder to me so I don't forget all that I want to talk about. 

So, in essence, I want to use minimum words this week and I don't want to strip him of his dignity as a man. I think that handling things this way can ultimately lead to an atmosphere where heart-healing can begin.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm so glad that you wrote him a letter. It's so much easier to get everything out that you need to say without interruption or losing your thoughts, and it heals you in a way to write it down. It sounds like he will want to work on the marriage with you, perhaps he just needs to really see and understand how it is your feeling. I think it's great how you approached it, laying out the good things you feel about him too and the kind of man he is. People respond better when they don't feel attacked, and I know that's not your intention. It's just about getting him to open his eyes to what's going on at home.

I am a spiritual person and I do understand what you're saying. I think people are here on this earth, some to fulfill their destiny's as such. Mother Theresa was a special person. I read Lisa Williams second book and it seems people may come back to fulfill their lifes lessons or to help out others. It sounds like your husband is very giving, but he also needs to focus on you because he needs you too. To keep him balanced. And your happiness is as important as everybody else's. No marriage is perfect, I believe if partners can get through a lesson together they will move on stronger. There is always room for growth, and that is what life is about. Growing as individuals, and together moving forward. We must first go through these lessons to learn from them.

The road ahead of you is unknown, but you have love, and that is what will pull you through. Love is the glue when things fall apart. Whatever the outcome, whatever your future, know that facing issues head on now and moving forward is the only way for true happiness for both of you. If you can achieve this, if you can both stop and really listen to each other, it's like falling in love all over again. It's going to be tough at times, but it will be worth it. Because you are worth it. I will be thinking of you.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Gratitude said:


> It's just about getting him to open his eyes to what's going on at home.
> 
> It sounds like your husband is very giving, but he also needs to focus on you because he needs you too. To keep him balanced. And your happiness is as important as everybody else's. No marriage is perfect, I believe if partners can get through a lesson together they will move on stronger. There is always room for growth, and that is what life is about. Growing as individuals, and together moving forward. We must first go through these lessons to learn from them.
> 
> Whatever the outcome, whatever your future, know that facing issues head on now and moving forward is the only way for true happiness for both of you.


Gratitude, thank you again for your encouraging post The words that I highlighted above (my first time using a highlighted quote on this forum so I hope I did it right!) are so key for me. After the charity ordeal, my husband pretty much told me that "I can't help him." He said it was an experience he had to go through for himself as a man. So his discouragement, him being taken advantage of, him failing to take care of his family, him feeling financial burden because of his choices, and him trying to escape everything by helping people outside of our household, etc--all of that--in his mind and heart, he believed there was nothing I could do to help him. (Actually I believe it was another man who told him that, who perhaps didn't have a wife like me. My husband bought into it because he was so vulnerable. He also bought into something one of his friends said to him during that time--They said, "It's going to be a long, long, long time before you get better." So, in past years when my husband would have been stronger and not have taken a comment like that in, he instead bought into that comment and owned it as his own. He often would recite to me, "It's going to be a long, long, long time before I get better from this." I thought this was one of the most destructive things a person who is supposed to be a friend could have told my husband. 

It will probably be most challenging for my husband to understand that he does need balance, and that he, too, needs growth. He will need to understand that escaping to the world around us only delays facing the issues he has caused in his own household. Escaping it does not erase it.

Somehow his eyes and heart needs to be opened to the fact that I'm a human being and not simply "a wife." I feel like in his mind sometimes, the two are different. He would eagerly pour emotion and time, energy and effort and money into other human beings. 

I agree that my happiness is as important as everybody else's. --And therein lies the other big challenge, getting him to realize that my happiness is as important as everybody else's.

Regardless of how hard it's going to be, however; I'm committed to putting the issues out there, facing them head on and moving forward. Thank you for your gentle nudging Gratitude


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

LOL gentle nudging. I hope it is. You have a good grasp of what's going on, very insightful and supportive. He should be so lucky.

I tell you what though, once someone gets around friends or even family you can hear them quoting what they've said. It happens a lot. It's worse when they listen to them and not to you, or logic. Once it gets in their heads, it's hard to get out.

I'm hoping through this your husband gets his eyes wide opened. He is giving to others, but not to the one person who is giving support back to him. You. The others, they take his support and he feels good helping them. You don't demand anything like they do, so he puts his energy elsewhere. It's basically just taking you for granted. Counselling will help, if he is a willing participant. But he cannot expect you to support him in his life's work, if he can't support you back. You're not his employee. You're his wife. 

Make sure through all this, you're taking some time out for you! Going out, socialising, your hobbies, whatever it is that makes you feel good. Take some time out from the worries and the concerns to just enjoy being you. Don't lose yourself in the process. You will need the time outs to refocus.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Unfortunately, I've already lost myself in the marriage process. I was more concerned with hanging in there come what may over the years that I let myself become unimportant. I thought because he's the head of our home, he would always have our family's best interest at heart. When I saw signs that that wasn't always the case, most times I ignored them or prayed about them. When I actually spoke up about them from time to time and was met with adversity, I let his adversity quiet my voice, instead of standing my ground on some issues. I think one of the posts spoke about how we teach others how to treat us. That was such a true statement for me. So here I am, grossly taken for granted. My husband has his heart strings aligned with other people and their children. Does it really matter how noble his intention was in the beginning? Does it matter that he didn't know things would turn out like they have? This seems like an undefeatable battle because his heart is elsewhere now. At this point, even with counseling, how can a man not think about spending time with other people when they make him happy? He loves them now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Are you prepared to walk away? If he can not give you what you want, will you still stay? Or have you reached the point where you have had enough?

My mother left my father about 16yrs ago after numerous affairs. He remarried one of them (she is much, much younger). Many years later, she still says she wished she had stayed. She is incredibly lonely (she never really met anyone else), thinks it would have been better for us kids to have stayed, and still can not get over the cold way in which he had treated her for years.

My point is this - if you do decide to leave, make sure, unlike my mother, that you're doing it for yourself and won't look back. Because things may be tough, you may miss him, you may never find that someone you're looking for. Not always likely, but it's a possibility. The one thing I learnt from my mother was to be sure when you make decisions in relationships that you can live with the outcome, because you KNOW that it is the best thing for you. Walk away with no regrets.

If you leave, you can know you have done everything in your power to fix the problems. But the effort was only ever one sided. Being a good person doesn't always mean you are a good husband. He needs to define the two. They are seperate. If he wants to devote his time to others and the work that he does, then he needs to realise it is unfair to expect you to stay, just to be a lower priority than his own. Loving and giving to another human being in an intimate relationship, lending support and affection, is good work too. He CHOSE to be married. He chose his vows. If he has some higher calling that he believes, then let him do it on his own. There is no place in his idea of his life's purpose for a wife. Only to utilise what HE needs. You can stay in the background forever, but what kind of life is that for you? Only you can decide what kind of life you want. Your life is not over. 

If you choose to stay, and nothing changes, you will have to find a way to detach from him and stop trying to get what you want. You won't. So go about your life, and make it less about him. It virtually means leading two separate lives. It may be very difficult, emotionally.

Your path right now has two forks in it. Which way do you feel like you want to go?


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Points well taken, Gratitude. Can I ask- I know you said your mother wishes that she would have stayed and that she thought it would have been better for you all, her children, but looking back on it now--do you think it would have been better for you all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chicka (Jun 27, 2012)

Toni Toni I just came to this site after a fight with my husband and just looking for some comfort and read others experiences. Its an old post of yours and I hope you are feeling better. I just want to say thank you for writing all your feelings down for us. You are a really thorough and interesting story teller. I feel like after reading all these posts, which by the way has made me calm down myself, I know your husband. 
I think its clear that he is a very good man. I think in life there are three types of people, those who dont give, those who give 50/50 (give and expect receipt in equal parts) and those that give too much. Your husband, like my husband, is the third type. He is a good unselfish person but at the same time all that giving can affect him or his family as in your case. But at the same time that is his character, learned through his childhood and background, which you cannot change and which is a good thing and a bad thing at the same time. This is kind of off topic but just want to say that my husband has given a lot and gotten used by a lot of people and I've made him see that he was used and he doesn't give so much anymore, so this is not a source of friction in our marriage at the moment. (I am not opposed to giving but I saw how people just milked him and used him, you know the type). 
The other point I wanted to make is that in the eyes of the women your husband helps, he is seen as a loving kind thoughtful man. And there is a great risk these women will fall for him. Maybe you expressed this fear to him which is why he's lieing to you. He doesn't want you to be worried about it, or he doesnt' want to be made feel bad abotu what he's doing. He's also a good man in that he wants to stay with you and doesn't want you to suffer in some kind of separation or whatever. 
I can see how you still love him so much because he just is so lovable, and you are lucky to have suhc a generous man. 
Unfortunately I dont have any idea or advice to give you on how you can get him to pay more attention to you again. That's something us women we would really like to know is how our hsubands can be more concerned about our feeligns. But good luck trying to figure out how. Only thing I can think of is give him space and just be loving to him and tell him nice things like he looks handsome or something, so that at home he has a place where he feels good about himself. Try it for a while adn see if it works. I'm afraid maybe some of these women he helps make him feel good about himself and that's why he's helping them, at the same time its just his good nature. 
I would not rent that apartment away from home. It could end up going several ways if you do that. 
At the same time I feel for you because due to the lies you don't always know what's going on with him. And you love him and it must be so hard for you.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

I basically did the same thing to Carol. In my case it wasn't the whole white knight gig. I'd lost interest in wet puppies somewhere in my mid 20's. I got lost in the career.

For me, it wasn't very complicated. You know that old adage, "Keep your eye on the ball". Yeah well... I failed. I still loved Carol A LOT. She was still the most important thing to me... in theory. But I'd lost sight of the ball.

Like you, Carol is... compliant and giving. So things built up until finally she broke. THAT was what I needed to realize what I'd done. I needed it IN my face in incontrovertible terms. But once I realized what I'd done things changed very, very quickly and dramatically. My internal priorities had not changed and I was (and still am almost a decade later) _mortified_ at what I'd done to the woman I love. I quit my job and retooled our entire life to allow much, much more focus on her. She blossomed again quickly. We are happier and stronger than ever. I'm still mortified and the horror of what I had done serves quite nicely as a goad to ensure it doesn't happen again.

So for you I'd ponder making it crystal clear how you are wilting under his lack of attention. You might consider saying something really overt like, "I'm dying a bit at a time each and every day." At least for me, I didn't need a 2x4... I needed to be hit upside the head with a steel I-beam. As I said, I was lost.

For him, I'd urge him to ponder on this white knight gig he's got going on. Typically what that represents is insecurity. It feels great to be the knight on that big ol' steed. Other people appreciate it and they feed you. It's got a whole ton of positive feedback built into it. It's also terribly unhealthy. Don't get me wrong. I'm working 70 hour days for nothing now to help people. I still believe in helping people... A LOT. But I'm a lot more choosy about WHO I help. I avoid the lost causes. They're tragic but I recognize I cannot help them. My question to him would be, "Why are you so insecure and is this thing you're doing really going to fix it? Perhaps you ought to be looking to your wife instead for helping resolve it?"

Good luck. My heart goes out to both of you.


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## Toni Toni (Mar 26, 2012)

Chicka, thanks so much for your encouragement Things are alot better with us; however, I feel inside that our marriage of course is not the same. I know that life must change . . . it's inevitable . . .yet sometimes unexpected at the same time. I do give him space and I've learned to be grateful for the space I get from him when I do. Though we are better and are communicating more, I almost look forward to having time alone to just "be." My mind is no longer so focused on wondering whether he's being truthful with me about something. I'm thankful for a peaceful mind 

Jeff/BC, thank you for your post and encouragement as well! I'm intrigued now. . . what exactly did your wife do that cause you to "wake up" so to speak, to really see how your work schedule was affecting your marriage? It's great news to hear that she "blossomed"!! Wow, that's truly a wonderful story of hope --And yes, if you got a chance to read some of my old posts, then you know that being the "knight in shining armor" did make my husband feel good. That's a hard thing for a wife to compete with. He's much better about recognizing those things now moving forward, however, his previous heart attachments are his heart attachments. I believe those memories and friendships are forever. He has told me that he hates how his behavior has affected me and our marriage and family life--as well as the way past stress has affected his own body. Yes he's fighting insecurity due to being de-valued and grossly taken advantage of (financially) by a charity we both worked with a few years back. That experience left him ashamed of the state he left our family unit in and it made him question and second-guess his decisions from then on. I think he no longer knew what to say or how to relate to me after that. His manhood was seemingly taken from him and I believe he poured himself into the lives and problems of others so he wouldn't have to see his own or the sadness in my eyes. It was a way he could temporarily feel like he was doing "good".

Thankfully, he too has come to the realization that he must be more choosy in how he helps and/or gets involved with other people. It's been quite a long road, but as I always say, It most definitely could be alot worse things to deal with. I'm thankful. 

So, again--what was it that your wife said to you?


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Toni Toni said:


> It most definitely could be alot worse things to deal with. I'm thankful.


Yeah, no joke. There are a lot worse things than a good man making stupid mistakes. For instance, "bad men" come to mind as being worse. Sadly, that won't save your marriage.


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