# 22 years married, thinking separation / divorce



## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello,

I've been married for 23 years, and the problem is that since we had our child, 22 years ago, my wife has basically resisted having sex. Sometimes we do, but not nearly often enough. She just lost interest when she got pregnant, with the demands of motherhood etc. 

I'm not terribly unhappy, and neither of us has ever been unfaithful, but it's one of those marriages where sex doesn't happen a whole lot, maybe once or twice a month. And it's pretty vanilla when it does happen. I'm kind of edgy/kinky in that area, and she's not into that by any stretch. I think she doesn't want to encourage that side of me to come out, which is another reason why she resists sex in general. 

Also, she's not really the loving, supportive, affectionate wife I would've hoped for. It's more like she's defensive / passive/aggressive and sometimes little bit demeaning - always trying to get the upper hand. Part of that's due to the fact that she's a very strong-willed individual, talented musically and an accomplished seamstress and gardener, but doesn't make a lot of money. I think she subconsciously resents that I'm the one who makes the money, she doesn't like that I have that advantage over her. She's a perfectionist and competitive by nature. She's an A-type personality, quick to anger, but responsible, a hard worker and a good housekeeper and mother. The only thing she fails in is pleasing her husband. I'm sure she thinks, why don't I please her? Ok, I'm lazy. I'm also kind of old fashioned and like a wife who seems kind of vulnerable. Sorry if that upsets anyone, but thats the way I'm wired. Although in terms of personality, I'm more of the type B, easy-going and not wanting to upset people. 

To cut the story short, with my daughter happily grown-up and moved out and working, I feel as if I've successfully discharged my parenting responsibility, I mean in terms of not divorcing sooner. I'm athletic and feel younger than my 55 years, so I'm thinking now's the time, or never. 

My wife would probably be ok if we divorced, as she hardly ever shows signs of affection toward me, and it would leave her to her music and garden and sewing, which I'm pretty sure she would be content with. But the problem is the divorce would be financially crippling for me, as I would have to pay lifetime alimony and give her 1/2 my assets. 

So, I've been thinking about suggesting an open marriage, or something. I don't want to sneak around and have affairs behind her back. I'm just not the type who could pull that off, anyway, and, I don't want to be. 

Should I just accept the status quo? We've never been to a marriage counselor, because she never wanted to go and I gave up on it. Should I push for that again, although I have serious doubts - I would just complain about her and she about me. Or should I just say screw it and go for the divorce, and let the chips fall?

(I know this was kind of a rambling post, but I would like to get some kind of solution to this dilemma.)


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I'll be honest, its not as fun being free as you think it is.

That being said, the rut your in is pretty common, I wish I could have you see my new therapist, she's great. She kinda specializes in the sexual dysfunction (male or female). Tell your wife she can go or your considering a separation or divorce. Cause your there in your mind anyways right? its not like your bluffing?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If your wife will not go to counseling, go yourself. There are things that you can do unilaterally to change your marriage.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

i doubt the open marriage thing will fly.

I think you should just say screw it and go for the divorce, and let the chips fall.

Once you threaten the divorce, maybe then she would be open to MC and there's a chance she'll turn it around.

You can't put a price on the promise of happiness with someone else, so staying miserable but financially comfortable doesn't really sounds like a good option.

Good luck.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> I'm not terribly unhappy, and neither of us has ever been unfaithful, but it's one of those marriages where sex doesn't happen a whole lot, maybe once or twice a month.


If you're truly not "terribly unhappy", then perhaps there is something there worth trying to save. Sex once or twice a month can be built upon.You haven't been sexless for years and years, so it seems to me there is still hope. Perhaps you can start with individual counseling. Try to find a counselor you are comfortable with and if it goes well, maybe this will encourage her to go with you at some point for joint counseling. 



> The only thing she fails in is pleasing her husband. I'm sure she thinks, why don't I please her? Ok, I'm lazy. I'm also kind of old fashioned and like a wife who seems kind of vulnerable.


Have you asked her directly about your sex life and/or why she's not more affectionate? If she's pleased? If she thinks the frequency is good? If so, what is her response? 

You want someone vulnerable, but you are lazy? I'm confused by that. Are you lazy in the bedroom and expect her to always take the lead and/or initiate? Does she reject you if you try to initiate more often? Does she reject your acts of affection?

Just some food for thought. 

Also, divorce doesn't have to be financially crippling if you two can come to an agreement outside of court. Friends of mine did it. The husband had an affair, left his wife, and yet, after he told her all of this, she didn't want anything from him other than one specific vehicle and joint custody, and they somehow managed to split everything without any apparent crippling of either one.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

thanks for the responses! Ginger-snap, the problem is my wife doesn't make much money. She's always refused to find a reasonable paying job, to dedicate herself to music. I think she could build up her own business if she wanted to. 

I'm still in the same boat. I've just sent an email to a marriage counselor. I've also been reading books on how to meet girls, and going to bars and chatting them up. I met a girl last night who was willing, but my judgement/conscience was telling me - don't cheat. Especially with someone from the same town. 

We fooled around this afternoon (she's asleep now), but she usually makes me wait. Also, the sex is "vanilla" and I've kind of run out of fantasies to keep me entertained when we're having sex.


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Don't give up! I'm married 22 years and over the past 6 months we have been able to completely turn it around. We were pretty much sexless the past 5 years. We completely were in the same boat you are in now. With a few differences, H was perfectly content to go on like that forever. I was not. I went outside my marriage and had a EA. 

Please PM me if you want some advice. I think I could really help you and your wife from my experience.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> I've also been reading books on how to meet girls, and going to bars and chatting them up. I met a girl last night who was willing, but my judgement/conscience was telling me - don't cheat.


Well that's something I guess. Geez. You're not terribly unhappy but already reading a book on how to "meet girls" and then going out and giving it a whirl. You need to decide what you want before you do take it further. It's not fair to your wife to get some on the side. I hope you talk to LoriC.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but the vibe I get from your comments is that you really want a wife you can control and you let her know that you make the money so you should be in charge. I get this from your comments about being old fashioned, wanting a vulnerable wife, and her being unhappy that you make all the money. My ex used to do this, let me know regular that HE made the money even though i was taking care of his little kids, and thus should get to control everything. I got a job though and divorced him for that and other reasons as well. This makes a person feel like they are worth less so they're probably not going to want much sex with you. If you want her to get a job then tell her. You can try MC but please put away the books on how to get women at bars; that's just trashy. If you want a divorce then get one honorably, or ask her for an open marriage. Understand though that if she agrees she may well get a lot more action than you, will you be ok with that? Whatever you do, be honest and don't be a dirtbag that runs around behind her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Open marriage is a really bad idea/option. Better all around to be divorced first.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

It sounds like you want to check out so go ahead and do it. At least before you have an affair. 



Jack99 said:


> thanks for the responses! Ginger-snap, the problem is my wife doesn't make much money. She's always refused to find a reasonable paying job, to dedicate herself to music. I think she could build up her own business if she wanted to.
> 
> I'm still in the same boat. I've just sent an email to a marriage counselor. I've also been reading books on how to meet girls, and going to bars and chatting them up. I met a girl last night who was willing, but my judgement/conscience was telling me - don't cheat. Especially with someone from the same town.
> 
> We fooled around this afternoon (she's asleep now), but she usually makes me wait. Also, the sex is "vanilla" and I've kind of run out of fantasies to keep me entertained when we're having sex.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Jack, I think you sound selfish and unreasonable. Not because you'd like a vulnerable girl, but because you have a really messed up attitude about your situation. 

You're lazy? If you want sex, put as much effort into making your wife feel like a beautiful, irresistable woman as you're putting into attempting to cheat. Disrespecting the woman you pledged to love for being successful all around (and not trying to please someone who clearly doesn't see her as "all that") is a pretty crappy way of seducing her to want sex... now or later.

She's not the problem. Your attitude is.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

I appreciate the advice, really I'm in a bind and it's helpful. I want to clarify - I don't hold the money over my wife, I'm not like that. I'm really not about control. It's too much work, for one thing. I don't think that way. Anyway, I can't control her or force my will on her - she's a fighter to the core of her being, and it just makes it worse if I do try to control her in any way. She is really the dominant one in the relationship, as she is much shorter-tempered than I, much more stubborn, was the disciplinarian when our child was home, and usually gets her way. As far her moods, it's gotten better recently, since she has a job teaching on weekends (really low-paying, and time-consuming - they sell it is being a volunteer type job) but it does give her a sense of purpose. 

I'll be honest - I do like the idea of a "submissive" wife. It turns me on, and makes be feel happy. Unfortunately, she's the furthest thing from being submissive, and bristles at any indication that I might consider her like that - in the bedroom or outside of it. She won't make me breakfast, bring me coffee, none of those cool, sexy things that make a guy feel like a man. Ok, I can live with that, it's not the 50s, I guess, and it's better I do things for myself. Still, I wonder a typical marriage would be happier if a wife would try that stuff occasionally. I know mine would. 

At the very least, I would like a wife who tolerates some kind of kinkiness in the bedroom. I'm bored to tears with the sex we do have. I do whatever it take to please her and she has her fun, but she doesn't reciprocate, other than letting me have sex with her. She doesn't like any of the kinky stuff, isn't into at all, won't tolerate it in any way shape or form. We're just mismatched sexually, that's the core of the problem. She was willing to go along with my kinkiness before we had our child, but after that, she just flipped off the switch. I'm 55 now and thinking - no oral sex, ever again? No french-kissing? Just occasional vanilla sex? 

I dunno. My sex-drive is diminishing at my age, so it's not the hassle it used to be. I didn't want to divorce before because of our daughter, and I still feel I made the right decision. She turned out great. I just didn't want chance that a divorce would screw up her life, so I didn't do it. But she's a grown-up now. 

As far as reading books on how to meet girls, it's partly a self-improvement thing, and partly I want to know before I take the plunge into the icy waters of divorce if I'm capable of attracting women. I've been out of circulation for a while.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Jack99 said:


> I'll be honest - I do like the idea of a "submissive" wife. It turns me on, and makes be feel happy. Unfortunately, she's the furthest thing from being submissive, and bristles at any indication that I might consider her like that - in the bedroom or outside of it. She won't make me breakfast, bring me coffee, none of those cool, sexy things that make a guy feel like a man.


She will if you figure out what makes her tick. I'm a pretty hard-core feminist in some ways. Worked in construction as a teen. Joined the Army. Prison guard for a max security prison. Always paid my own way, opened my own doors, and refused most offers of help. 

Today, I love that my husband opens doors for me, carries packages for me, etc. etc. 

What changed? Two things, and it started when I met my second husband...

1. My second husband actually listened to me and treated my opinions and thoughts as important. This softened my attitude a lot. 

2. He demonstrated loyalty and commitment to me - something that I would have claimed to understand but after experiencing it, I can look back and say that before him, I didn't have a clue what that was like. Because he was loyal and committed, I developed my own sense of loyalty and commitment in ways I never had before. 

3. Service. My husband now has both of those traits and one additional one - he does so many things for me that he doesn't have to do and probably doesn't want to do! While I sleep in, he's washing my car or getting up to mow the grass so we can have breakfast together when I awaken. When I'm going out to a pasture to place a for sale sign, he grabs a weed whacker and offers to drive to make sure that the signs will be seen after I place them. When he's coming home from work, he picks up the phone and asks me if I want him to pick up anything. He pays as much attention to my needs and wants as his own, and I always feel a need to reciprocate because his kindness and gentlemanly ways are ALWAYS there! 

If someone asked her wife if you're like this, what would she answer? If you want her to submit to you, start by submitting to her and making her the center of your world.


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> She will if you figure out what makes her tick. I'm a pretty hard-core feminist in some ways. Worked in construction as a teen. Joined the Army. Prison guard for a max security prison. Always paid my own way, opened my own doors, and refused most offers of help.
> 
> Today, I love that my husband opens doors for me, carries packages for me, etc. etc.
> 
> ...


Reading the Five Love Languages would help to figure out what her needs are and what yours are. This helped my H and I so much. We both have acts of service, we now do things for each other every day.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

Kathy, your message was food for thought. It kind of dovetails with the message from the "5 languages" book (see below). 

Lori, 
I took your advice and read "the 5 languages". It clarified some things about what's gone wrong with my marriage - the 2-year love "high" vs. the "gas-tank" concept of love, and especially the love languages and which are applicable. I took the test for myself, and scored a 12 out of 12 on physical touch and 11 of 12 on words of affirmation. My wife's asleep now, but I took the test based on what I thought her answers would be. She scored a 12 on acts of service, and a 1 on physical touching. So, we're pretty much on opposite ends of the spectrum. 

But, I'm thinking of trying the "6-month experiment" of "loving your enemy" that he described for the wife whose husband wouldn't try anything to improve the marriage. I'm pretty sure my wife would be unreceptive to any reading of books or marriage counseling anyway, because she always has been in the past. 

I don't have a lot of hope, to be honest. It's just not her style to be affirming, and sex and touching is something she kind of avoids, as much as she can. On my end, doing the acts of service seems like a lot of work. Plus there's the added, critical problem that I'm a kinkster and she's decidedly not into my kink. It's a sexual and cultural mismatch. We don't like the same kind of music - I'm a rocker, she's classical. We have entirely different frames of reference in terms of background marriages - she comes from a divorce/broken family, whereas I had loving parents. These are addressed in the book, but it does make for a tougher road. 

I don't see any miracles coming my way, but for sure nothing will improve if I don't at least give it a try. At the very least, it could help us part on friendlier terms.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Do you realize that your wife doesn't love you any more? She may never have. IF she ever did, she's a "walk-away" now. Read up on it. She won't change.

And get the strange from the bar. Don't confuse the situation with an open marriage. Just go to another town. She can lie to you? Then you can lie to her.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

Jack, I am believer in the 5LL and I think you should follow the 6-month experiment. What do you have to lose at this point? But you need to do it from a place of genuine affection, not a from the point of testing or keeping score of what you do for her. Follow your wife's LLs because you care about her and want her happy and for no other reason - or it will likely not work and your wife will detect some superficiality in the action if you do.

If she asks why you've starting speaking her LL (in so many words), you tell her about the book and say you just want to have a better marriage. Don't ask her to read it, let her decide. If she says your marriage is just fine (a diversion technique from her own issues), nod, smile, say nothing else, and carry on. Actions, not words, will paint both of your motives in a true light.

After 3-4 months, ask her to discuss your sexual dissatisfaction in an open and straightforward manner. If she refuses, let it go for the moment. And initiate sexual contact in exactly the same frequency as you do now. If you try to up activity, she will connect it with your changes and think ulterior motive. If you lower it, she may think there is something else wrong and you are acting from guilt.

She may start to come around and display more affection to you. If so, then you're golden. As others said, you just needed to crack her code. Take it slow and build on your successes. Try to open communication with her. IC/MC, texts, letters, face-to-face, whatever works.

If she doesn't ... well, at the end of six months, you would need to make a decision. If you opt for divorce, do not threaten. Do it. See a lawyer and have her served. Don't be antagonistic; tell her you want it to be amicable as possible. Then during the divorce, 180. Hard. Remember, the 180 rules are designed for you to move on, not win her back.

At this point, your wife will do one of two things. She will realize - feeling the void of her LL that is no longer being spoken by you - that she is about to lose something and will step it up. Don't be swayed by tears or promises. Let her actions speak. At this point, you are not threatening divorce, you are doing it, out of conviction. You can change your mind but legitimately do that. Or your wife will shrug and let you go. If so, then at least doing the 180 will better prepare you to go and you can walk away with your integrity intact that you did everything you could to save a crumbling marriage. That will put you in a much better frame of mind (i.e., guilt-free) for future relationships.

And as if it need to be said, do not cheat. A good definition of integrity is doing the right thing when no one else is looking. Get out of the bars and either focus on your wife, or focus on ending it.

Best of luck!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

If you are at the point of divorcing your wife, you can gain confidence in declaring what it is you want in your marriage.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

So, I told her I wanted to be a better husband, and to tell me one thing she wanted me to do. She said, clean the basement. Just as I thought - acts of service. So, I moved an unused exercise machine to the garage (anyone want a Chuck Norris Total Gym? cost me $700, you get it for $100), moved my guitar gear to a corner, found an old blues instructional CD that had gone missing, and started thinking about replacing the carpeting that had gotten thrown out so many years ago due to a flood. She also mentioned as we were doing that the grill needs to be cleaned and repaired, so we'll do that this weekend. 

She wasn't bowled over or anything. It's day one. We'll see in six months.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

Convection, thanks for the words of advice. The bars don't really appeal to me that much, although the girls do. I'm happy to hold off for 6 months. As far as coming from affection as opposed to a keeping score point of view, I'm coming at this with a sincere attitude. I think that's the most I can ask.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is something critical in meeting her needs for acts of service.
Don't ask, just do it.

Let's say you cared about sex. Do you want to constantly ask your wife for sex, and know that she is doing it only becuase you asked her and you want it?

Acts of service is no different.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Jack99 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've been married for 23 years, and the problem is that since we had our child, 22 years ago, my wife has basically resisted having sex. Sometimes we do, but not nearly often enough. She just lost interest when she got pregnant, with the demands of motherhood etc.
> 
> ...


Have you seen the movie "Hope Springs?" Tell your wife you want a real marriage again. Now that you've raised your daughter, you want some changes. Baby steps to having the sex life you want. Tell her how serious you are & are thinking about divorce. Shake her up a little bit.

I know it's easier to say "screw it" & throw the towel in but be careful what you wish for. Starting over with strange at age 55 could be fun at first........


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

I am totally unqualified to advise. and Its hard to know how to respond based on a quick blurb like that - and I want to resist panting a picture in my head of your relationship based on a few words you write.

You seem to me tired - and are clearly distressed at where your relationship is at. Justifiably so. I also think its a good thing that you are reflecting on it and reaching out for advice.

Based on how you describe it, you both seem to have a fair amount of resentment built up at this point - not something that is gong to be resolved quickly. It took 20+ years to get to this point so it would take some work to dig out.

My experience is that I am rarely adequately able to self evaluate our relationship conflicts completely accurately - or at least how she may percieve things from her perspective. (I guess that is why there is conflict - we percieve the same things quite differently) I may, in the end - get to a better understanding through talking - but more often by accidental observation and little verbal cues that she might drop.

I guess my point is counselling might be able to get you both to a better understanding of where the relationship actually stands - and more quickly and bring some of the issues out more clearly. I say this because you seem pretty sure of how she sees things (I dont blame you after being together so long) - but would she describe her views the same way, in the same terms? I bet not - but I am guessing. She may also have some different beliefs about what makes you tick.

Its got to be hard - you have that mid-life crisis - empty nest - gee - things are not so great thing going on.

What kind of communicators are both of you? Do you want to start by asking her how to make things better - and I mean seriously? Question is: Do you? Does she? Have you already made up your mind and the only thing holding you back is financial concerns? Financial concerns are secondary compared to a life of emotional misery seems to me.

Just shooting from the hip: you need to figure out where you stand and if you are interested in saving the relationship - you both need to get into couseling and soon. This is no time to slack of of take the easy way out. You need to take control of this situation if you dont - you are going to lose it whether you like it or not - and you will be on the receiving end of a decision being made for you.

sorry - sort of babling...


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Emerald said:


> Have you seen the movie "Hope Springs?" *Tell your wife you want a real marriage again.* Now that you've raised your daughter, you want some changes. Baby steps to having the sex life you want. Tell her how serious you are & are thinking about divorce. Shake her up a little bit.
> 
> I know it's easier to say "screw it" & throw the towel in but be careful what you wish for......


:iagree:

if, that is what you want of course.


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