# Why I Believe a Disloyal Spouse Really Does NEED to tell some details



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know, there are several folks on the forum right now who are either being told by someone that they don't need the details, or who's disloyal spouse is telling them they won't tell them details. Personally, I disagree with this. Here's why:

When a person is disloyal, the truth is that they lie. They cover up what was really going on, who they were doing it with, where they were, how they felt, what they thought, etc. And usually--about 99 times out of 100--somewhere along the line they try to convince their loyal spouse that they are "imagining things" or "making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you really have jealousy issues." But in real life what's happening is that the loyal spouse has some intuition that something is not right, and the whole time the disloyal knows absolutely that something really IS NOT right! The disloyal actively works to make the loyal doubt themselves and their intuition. 

Then for whatever reason the affair ends. A variety of reasons can result in this but let's just assume that it's over. The disloyal has known all along what is really going on--they have all the pieces of the puzzle and the picture that it makes is not very flattering. Meanwhile the loyal has SOME of the pieces of the puzzle and can see bits of the picture here and there...but for every bit they do see, the disloyal has tried to convince them that's not what they're seeing! So the loyal finds themselves in the position of second-guessing themselves and their experiences and their memories! They are casting around and trying desperately to get enough puzzle pieces to get enough of the picture to tell if they were played for a fool all along--or was it just a brief period of really bad choices and behavior? Without the puzzle pieces they will never know...they will cast about forever...and it will never, EVER be resolved for them. 

By contrast--put yourself in the disloyal spouse's shoes. Imagine you were doing an incredibly foolish and morally wrong thing like embezzling from your company, and at one point you realized you are wrong and can not do this anymore. So you're brave and go to your employer and admit what you did. There are consequences for your embezzling (like you'll probably lose that job), but since you came forward and confessed they didn't prosecute. Now, at that point, would you want your spouse to give you the details of every single time you embezzled? What were you thinking? How did you come up with that amount that time? Were you listening to music? Where did you hide it? Did you do it alone? Is there a hidden bank account with the embezzled money? What happened to that one? When did you think about embezzling again? Did you ever think of me when you were embezzling? Did it occur to you what this would do to the family? What were you wearing? Did you tell them the same lies you told me? 

Okay some of those may be things your spouse has some right to know, but a lot of that...you'd think: "STOP IT!! All I want to do is get this behind me! I was humiliated! I acted badly and you want to evaluate all my bad choices! Please it's like picking at a scab! I can't heal if you keep picking at it! Can we move forward?

Now you both have an image of what the other person feels like. You disloyals, you can see that for your loyal if they don't have enough of the puzzle pieces to tell "Okay it was pretty bad but I wasn't fooled for our whole marriage. There was just this, this and this bad part" then they won't have a foundation that they can build on and move forward. It will never resolve, because they'll keep looking around to try to figure out what happened, why, and what they can do to protect themselves so this never happens again! And you loyals, you can see that for your disloyal, having to tell you details is like constantly having to dredge up things they are desperately trying to forget and move past. Yes, they had the full picture, but they made big strides to CHANGE that picture so they don't want to look at it. 

I strongly suggest to both the loyal and the disloyal that they have a mutual understanding: namely that they agree to ask one (or two) questions each day for 30 days. For that one question, the disloyal agrees to answer *FULLY and HONESTLY * (yes...with some details), and that the one question each day is no more than one hour. That way, the loyal gets enough info to be satisfied of the puzzle pieces they need to see that THEY weren't nuts--they can trust their gut feelings and their memories are not false -AND- the disloyal gets the guarantee that it won't be the Spanish Inquisition (one question, one hour, 30 days, DONE!), and it will not be held over their heads forever. If the disloyal agrees to answer fully and honestly...and does so.. usually the closer you get to day 30, the less need the loyal has to ask questions and at some point may just say "I don't have a question today" or "I choose to not ask anything today." 

Finally, as a word of advice to the loyal--one thing you'll find is that there will be some things that trigger memories of the devastation of the infidelity, but it if you want to recover from this, it is *DIRELY IMPORTANT* that you learn how to keep your focus on the present (where is your spouse NOW? who do they love NOW? who did they choose? how do they treat you?) and do not live in the Post-Traumatic past. When you trigger, *STOP *your thoughts and then specifically say out loud where you are now and WHERE YOU HOPE TO BE IN ONE YEAR AND IN THE FUTURE. Keep your thoughts there as much as you possibly can. Once you have some of your puzzle pieces, if you dwell in the past you will only harm yourself and your marriage.


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## HappyHer (Nov 12, 2009)

Great tips Affaircare. This is something so many couples face and it doesn't have to be the end of their relationship.


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## moeman (Aug 12, 2010)

Thank you, Affaircare.

Moeman


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I agree. "Sorta" honest means "sorta" committed, besides, how does the offended spouse know they even ought to try to work things out if they don't know the extent of the wound? They need to know and they have a right to know. The offender needs to come completely clean or there's no reason to believe they have divorced themselves from the offending conduct.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Great effort to develop a protocol that may help people!


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

I agree with some of the post affaircare, about the need to move forward, focusing on the present, etc. I don't agree however on the bravery part of telling details (and the absolute need to tell them). It sure must be difficult to give details especially when you see the impact of each one on your spouse but it comes more from decency.
It's brave to stay faithful, it's decent to come clean and say that you didn't.

I can see now the dynamics of giving details. It gives the wayward the opportunity to expell the poison that's eroding his conscience and for the betrayed to get a validation and clutches for his pain. However, it is dangerous in my opinion to build a sanctuary for your wound and decorate it with confirmed details. It can turn you cynical and bitter and add dead weight to the luggage you're already carrying.
And I still don't uderstand people's desire to move forward and think about the present while constantly seeking for the details that happened in the past at the same time. I'd say you'd rather dive and seek for the reasons that make you wonder about the details than give in to the urge to gather their answers.

As I said I can see the dynamics behind asking and giving the details, kind of the loyal getting proof of how the wayward is beating himself about the affair (along with the clutches and validation) and the wayward easing a bit of the chest weight and proving to himself that he's seriously in the atonement process. But it's a very far-fetched dynamic if you ask me.

Another major point in my decision to not seek for the details (assuming that I would get a honest response) is that I would get a "compassionate" answer.
Honey, I slept with him but you're better. Honey, I was in a fog at the time. Honey you're so amazing.
That sounds scarily like pity to me. And nobody get to hurt me then pity me. I doubt it's compassion or empathy because you get those from third parties not the concerned wrong doer.
This is me, though. I know that it's not the case to everybody.

You have to admit, also, the spouses that chose to stay and/or chose to know details like where and how good was it suffer for the longest periods. I have my triggers once in a while, which is understandable giving the recency of Dday, but I can't imagine if the trigger comes from seeing her directly/hearing her moan/catching looking at another man.
The arab culture is really hostile towards suicide, and one of the old ways to "make the suicidal regret" was to make him walk around with the noose or hanging the knife/poison bottle above his bed. This horrible treatment is similar to the triggers I'm talking about.

The more you know, the harder to not think about it.
It's easy to stop your thoughts when you know that the spouse cheated (period), but it wouldn't be so if you try to stop thinking about the cheating AND the size/degree of pleasure AND the comparison between me and him AND so on.
It's exhausting enough to stop thinking about the little I know, I wouldn't want to make it harder.

I want to say that "the end justifies the means" can positively be applied to affairs. What is important is to cope with it, and just like cheaters differ, so are the methods of coping. If you really want to ask for details, it's your right especially that you were patient enough to stay, just be sure that it's really what you need, and not just what you want.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> I agree with some of the post affaircare, about the need to move forward, focusing on the present, etc. I don't agree however on the bravery part of telling details (and the absolute need to tell them). It sure must be difficult to give details especially when you see the impact of each one on your spouse but it comes more from decency.
> It's brave to stay faithful, it's decent to come clean and say that you didn't.
> 
> I can see now the dynamics of giving details. It gives the wayward the opportunity to expell the poison that's eroding his conscience and for the betrayed to get a validation and clutches for his pain. However, it is dangerous in my opinion to build a sanctuary for your wound and decorate it with confirmed details. It can turn you cynical and bitter and add dead weight to the luggage you're already carrying.
> ...


I would say the less you know the more exhausting it is. The more empty it is. The continuing of the disconnect. But also, the more bulls*it answers you get, also very exhausting.

I would not be where I am now if my W had come clean, at least properly clean. He just gave me the 'clean' version. He remains tainted with his lies. If he came properly clean, I would know, deal with, get over. Closeness, (increasing the love & intimacy) would be a friend I know well.

Asking the questions and getting straight answers is a way of countering all the crap and lies around the affair. To see if they have changed, if they mean it when sorry drops out of their mouth. It is the ONLY way to get peace of mind after the A. ...imo.

Instead I know some....bits of it...I fill in the rest myself. If I had left myself in blissful ignorance and asked nothing/little? I would be like a blind wife stepping into an unknown abyss. With only my cheating man to guide me.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Mostly agree with you affaircare... There is another reason though.

A wayward, one that is truly ashamed of their behavior, will downplay and do all those things internally to make it ‘not so bad’. By having to reveal the details, acts, and what they did.... it helps unravel the lies and fantasy they created around it to feel less guilty. This also helps insure that in the future, they’ll trigger and remember having to relive it with you. Not only their shame and horror of how they were, but the memory of watching your excruciating pain hearing them recount it. It will burn into them like a brand... as it should.

Left alone, they can maintain the fantasy part; Excitement, fun, intense, etc. I’d rather have my wife vomit at the thought than let her continue to reminisce of ‘the old days’....


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Remains said:


> I would say the less you know the more exhausting it is. The more empty it is. The continuing of the disconnect. But also, the more bulls*it answers you get, also very exhausting.
> 
> I would not be where I am now if my W had come clean, at least properly clean. He just gave me the 'clean' version. He remains tainted with his lies. If he came properly clean, I would know, deal with, get over. Closeness, (increasing the love & intimacy) would be a friend I know well.
> 
> ...


I understand what you mean. What made you think that the answers you got were not the truth ? In my case it was because I know when she lies and she has a history of struggling with admitting her wrongs.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> You know, there are several folks on the forum right now who are either being told by someone that they don't need the details, or who's disloyal spouse is telling them they won't tell them details. Personally, I disagree with this. Here's why:
> 
> When a person is disloyal, the truth is that they lie. They cover up what was really going on, who they were doing it with, where they were, how they felt, what they thought, etc. And usually--about 99 times out of 100--somewhere along the line they try to convince their loyal spouse that they are "imagining things" or "making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you really have jealousy issues." But in real life what's happening is that the loyal spouse has some intuition that something is not right, and the whole time the disloyal knows absolutely that something really IS NOT right! The disloyal actively works to make the loyal doubt themselves and their intuition.
> 
> Then for whatever reason the affair ends. A variety of reasons can result in this but let's just assume that it's over. The disloyal has known all along what is really going on--they have all the pieces of the puzzle and the picture that it makes is not very flattering. Meanwhile the loyal has SOME of the pieces of the puzzle and can see bits of the picture here and there...but for every bit they do see, the disloyal has tried to convince them that's not what they're seeing! So the loyal finds themselves in the position of second-guessing themselves and their experiences and their memories! They are casting around and trying desperately to get enough puzzle pieces to get enough of the picture to tell if they were played for a fool all along--or was it just a brief period of really bad choices and behavior? Without the puzzle pieces they will never know...they will cast about forever...and it will never, EVER be resolved for them.



Wow - you really hit this one on the head. Your right. Knowing they cheated is not enough. Its all those lies that made us think we were insane or jealous husbands or whatever. My gut told me a dozen times that this was fishy. I sure would like to know if it was right (If my assumptions were right) and actually hear what was going on. It sucks to feel like a sap (And a clueless stupid one at that!)

I had to call it to a halt shortly after the admission because I just wasn't capable of hearing more for a while. *I'm talking insane panic anxiety and major depression. It takes a while to chew over things like this.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I didn't know there was any other way then to have the detail to either move on or forgive infidelity. I mean before the BS know anything they were in the dark....way stay in the dark?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Guy, because many, many BS's are desperate to R. We see it all of the time here on TAM. The BS will pay lip-service to the principles of reconciliation (transparency, NC, trust-building, etc) but in reality will do almost anything and believe almost anything to salve their egos and try to turn back the clock, pre-affair. If that means not getting the details, then that is less important to them than a (usually false) reconciliation. Men and women who do that were most likely doormats and continue to be so.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> You know, there are several folks on the forum right now who are either being told by someone that they don't need the details, or who's disloyal spouse is telling them they won't tell them details. Personally, I disagree with this. Here's why:
> 
> When a person is disloyal, the truth is that they lie. They cover up what was really going on, who they were doing it with, where they were, how they felt, what they thought, etc. And usually--about 99 times out of 100--somewhere along the line they try to convince their loyal spouse that they are "imagining things" or "making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you really have jealousy issues." But in real life what's happening is that the loyal spouse has some intuition that something is not right, and the whole time the disloyal knows absolutely that something really IS NOT right! The disloyal actively works to make the loyal doubt themselves and their intuition.
> 
> ...


On the other hand you can also dump the cheater ASAP, save time and pain and move on to someone else who actually has a probability of not being a cheater.

Lies become irrelevant, the short term pain will pass a lot faster than all the reconciliation pain and you'll probably find a new partner faster than the time it takes to regain some sort of trust back.

Personally i think life is way too short to waste years slugging it in a relationship that is mortally wounded. Although i sort of admire the suffering ability of people who decide to R.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

the guy said:


> I didn't know there was any other way then to have the detail to either move on or forgive infidelity. I mean before the BS know anything they were in the dark....way stay in the dark?


To me there are two important points. 
Do you (did you) love him/her?
Did you (do you) ever get sexual?

I think there are people who would accept a sex fling but not the wayward spouse being in love. And others who might be able to get past an emotional affair but not if it got sexual. There are a few that would be willing to try to work it out if it was both. The other big factor is if they are still doing whatever.

As to sex itself I think there are two important kinds. The kind that could pass you STDs or HIV (Which I guess is an STD) and something physical that does not (No "fluids" exchanged.

Some people want every detail and for some I think they torture themselves with the answers. Or it can be the other way around. 

Doormats. This term has always bothered me because I think some (Not all) associate that with anyone willing to try to reconcile with a cheater. Maybe I'm thin skinned about that because I am trying and my situation is a major crap festival.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> To me there are two important points.
> Do you (did you) love him/her?
> Did you (do you) ever get sexual?
> 
> ...


I'm refering to those BS's who will be "persuaded", not to dig too deeply into the affair, that they , themselves are partly to blame, that it was a "mistake", and that it was mostly the OM/OW's fault. If any BS believes those things, he/she is probably a doormat, and will probably be cheated on, again. I did not mean you specifically, X-Unknown.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Sorry I didn't think you meant me. 

I want to add that I'm not at all sure that my "binary" cheating chart is right. And none of this includes what the wayward one does after D-Day.

I would hope it would include getting tested. Send the other man/woman a no contact message (And living up to it) and getting rid of anything related to the other man/woman. A real apology and showing some serious remorse. Which is what others have said here a thousand times.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

The reason the Loyal spouse should know everything is because they have a right to leave. Imagine if your WS knew that there is one thing that if she did she knew it would end the marriage. Well get what she has a EA/PA and does exactly that. I think part of the process is proving to the Loyal spouse you are willing to face the consequences of their actions. IF my wife told me today she had sex with another man five years ago. I would still end the marriage. Just because something didn't happen yesterday doesn't mean that it isn't a deal breaker. It just means that your Wayward held on to the information to keep you on the hook. Then spills it when the WS feels like he/she could get away with it. Which is total crap in my book. It is a cop out and is akin to false R. I think a WS should be 100% honest and answer all questions asked. They should be willing to bite the bullet and to show the LS that they respect them enough to tell the truth and if the LS cannot take it and decides to D instead of R. It is the LS right. I think that the LS should be given the time to get over his/her fears on his/her own time schedule. IF they can't get over it they can't and they'll leave the marriage. It is the way it is. There are some individuals with the iron will who can get over infidelity. there are many others who are unable to deal with the turmoil and must move on with their lives. Even if it means losing what was once a good marriage.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> I understand what you mean. What made you think that the answers you got were not the truth ? In my case it was because I know when she lies and she has a history of struggling with admitting her wrongs.


I knew they weren't the truth because things didn't add up. He would spin me a story that was almost truthful and I would believe and accept at the time. With some thought, all the bits and pieces, all the ins and outs, they didn't add up. So I would ask again. That and along with his reaction of anger and defensiveness when I brought it up (as well as throwing all the classic stuff at me right the way through, paranoid, something wrong with me etc etc). I have done the heavy lifting since DD. He has done the running away. And every time I have questioned something that didn't make sense, eventually I was right. 

I wish I knew what I do now 3 years ago. I wish I knew of this site 1+ year ago. I am so glad I now know all those classic signs. You feel them in your gut but don't have the conviction. And then you read mirror after mirror of your own story. And it becomes so much clearer. 

All situations are different due to the different personalities in them, but some reactions are identical, and some things in any situation ALL mean the same thing.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

costa200 said:


> .... Although i sort of admire the suffering ability of people who decide to R.


Haha I love that Costa! Don't it just hit the nail on the head! 

I say this as a suffering R'er. Self inflicted I think.

And trying to escape that and leave the class A drug that is my man.


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Remains said:


> All situations are different due to the different personalities in them, but some reactions are identical, and some things in any situation ALL mean the same thing.


Absolutely, signs and signals that are common in all humans. I also thought that my wife was one of a kind in her issues, but I found similar traits in other threads.

I'm feeling like the affair has built an unseen prison. You have to rebuild yourself but you can't know where to begin.


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