# The big elephant in the room



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Ok, I have read numerous posts about infidelity where WS, probably 99% of the time, will state their "reasons" for cheating on the BS that does point the finger at the BS, no matter what they say.

Ok, fine. So after reading such posts some will explain that they are in reconciliation. And if they can do it, great. I wish them luck. But then I read things like the BS understood what the WS was going through. So they both work together to save the marriage.

After the WS blames the cheating on what their BS did or didn't do, BS somehow accepts this, the big elephant that I speak of is there is a huge imbalance, to me it would be anyway, in that one of them got gratification with someone else, or others, outside of the marriage.

I'm sure there are some BS that don't even let that enter their minds if in reconciliation. But for others, like me, even if I decided to put my all into a marriage after cheating, I'd feel like they got to go out and have their fun and got away with it.

No, I am absolutely not suggesting anything like the BS gets a hall pass, because I don't condone that one iota.

But for those of you that are reconciling, but not successful yet or not sure if you will be, how do you deal with that imbalance? That huge elephant in the room that is knowing your spouse F'd someone else? And if revenge cheating isn't in your plans, as it should NOT be, how do you overcome this imbalance of knowing you were completely faithful, and your spouse got to have their little fun?


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

The elephant in the room leaves you two options.

Eat it.

Climb on it and ride it out into the jungle.

Life it not fair. Marriage should have balance. When it doesn't you either degrade your expectations, or you find a new way of life.

Good question. I will be interested in things others say on this topic.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

as posted in my story (see link in my sig), I resorted to try swinging, and I thank my lucky stars that I didn't go through with it past meeting other couples and going to a sex club (we just watched).

Ultimately I came to the conclusion that fantasy is not reality. The fantasy of being with others and having my just desserts just didn't hold up to what I had with my wife. It wasn't reality and it wasn't worth pursuing. It became much easier to let that notion of "evening out the scales" go.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

The WS needs to see into the future... They are not trapped in a prison. 

Boundaries are not a prison. Boundaries protect a couple from real evils in the world. Boundaries enable you to open up and invest all your love and energy with the person you love and married. Boundaries keep the noise of others out of your lives. 

With boundaries, a couple has so much power over the world. The power is immense. Not having them, all is lost - then he/she is in a prison.

Cheating is a prison for a WS. Forever tagged.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I've followed these types of posts as well. I know a few sides of the coin here, but not the revenge side. I can't say it doesn't cross my mind, especially being relatively young and living in a college town, but that would be something to pursue if my R ever fell apart. I'm more tuned into other women than I was before her affair, and I'm sure she knows it, and that's probably not a bad thing. I don't know if I was right or wrong to give her a first chance, but there won't be a second chance, and I've already thought through my exit plan.

I didn't cheat for years when _my needs_ were unmet, I didn't cheat when she gave me a hall pass, and I could go on & on telling you why I could have cheated... but I didn't. I don't plan to start now. We are all capable of a moment of weakness, but a key thing to me in my R is that she is facing not only what she did during the affair, but her way of thinking about and dealing with problems. 

This has made everything so wonderful in our R (aside from me still dealing with everything), but I'm still cursed by what happened. I've ordered a DNA test for my son that I'm 99.99% sure is mine just so I can have peace of mind. That shouldn't enter the mind of a man who gave everything he could to only one woman for well over 10 years. On her end, she got to experience an "open marriage" and explore things she felt she "missed out on" in our time together. Yeah it sucks that she got to sow her wild oats, but there's no getting even in my mind, there is only getting out. And I hope to do that honestly if I do.

So I'm not sure where I'll be long term, but each day she acts this way is another day I feel like keeping her around.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Ok, I have read numerous posts about infidelity where WS, probably 99% of the time, will state their "reasons" for cheating on the BS that does point the finger at the BS, no matter what they say.
> 
> Ok, fine. So after reading such posts some will explain that they are in reconciliation. And if they can do it, great. I wish them luck. But then I read things like the BS understood what the WS was going through. So they both work together to save the marriage.
> 
> ...


In R, after proper exposure and communication of deal breakers and talk of divorce, you hope the joy that they had, in the past, is now the thing that is causing pain in the present and the thing that they risked a marriage for. You want to believe that it becomes the thing that makes them feel weak and foolish, not sexy. The orgasms only lasts so long, the guilt and shame of an affair can last much much longer. Loss of respect of children (proper exposure) is a powerful motivator to make someone want to change. 

One difficult aspect is when you've been getting the vanilla duty sex for so long, you forgot about the hot steamy kind that the OM/W was getting. When that returns, that can become a trigger itself with the 'oh, this is what I was missing.. forgot about this kind of effort...' then you realize where it was going, that extra effort. You wonder why that effort needed to go to another person and not you. I like dirty hourly rate motels.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Good responses.

I just don't get how some can go on with reconciliation knowing their partner rode the baloney poney of some other guy to heaven, or their husband was balls deep many times over in another woman.

Sorry to put it that way, but I don't think enough BS really visualize what their WS did and how much they enjoyed it. I'm sure the successful reconciliation BSs somehow were able to put that out of their mind. I couldn't and never would be able to. The only way I can keep it out of my mind, or at least out of my mind in the sense that the knowledge of what she did doesn't hurt, is to get rid of her.
I also think, successful reconciliation or not, that MOST WS will look back on their sexcapades with a certain level of fondness.

I know that if I had stayed with my X, all I'd have seen every time I looked at her was her spreading her legs for other men without a thought in the world about her husband or kids.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Good responses.
> 
> I just don't get how some can go on with reconciliation knowing their partner rode the baloney poney of some other guy to heaven, or their husband was balls deep many times over in another woman.
> 
> ...


Believe me, they visualize it.. They'd have to be a fool to even ask "was it good", and to believe anything other than "don't be a moron, sex is always good, and steamy sneaky hot affair sex is super awesome, especially in one of the other spouses beds, where it's super taboo!!"

That's part of what they call the sh!t sandwich you are fed when you choose to R. 

You do think about it, that's why it's no longer special. They had 'just sex', and now for you it's 'just sex'. They give you that gift when you give them R.

Instead of 'oh look, i'm banging that precious lady that I cherish and loved and i'm so lucky', it's 'she's got a hot rack, let me smack them around.. '. You can't think about the 'he smacked them around' or you're going to lose wood, so you just keep smacking them around or doing whatever you're into that night. If you continue to think 'so and so was here', it'll eat you alive. They took away the 'special', so enjoy the 'just sex'. It's available all the time, and it's super good because you're getting an awesome effort.. might not be sneaky affair sex, but it's 'i want to save my marriage so i'm going to f like a pron star to prove i'm better than anything he'll ever experience'.. So you go with that.. or at least I do.

They do go from being a 10 to a 6.. so that's tough too. You visualize them dropping pants for the other person, stuff like that is painful. In a motel.. dirty one...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

it's why they call 'em mind movies

I suppose the amount of tolerance depends on the individual and why R isn't for everyone even with a remorse WS


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Vellocet...after thirty years of reconciliation...we were able to move the elephant out of the room to the backyard. He will forever live with us...and we know he is outside...but he doesn't bother us on a daily basis anymore. We don't have to constantly clean up his mess. I hope eventually...he runs out of food and water and dies.


And in your case, you both are able to do that. 

When I say there is an elephant in the room, I'm talking about the scenario where only one of the spouses cheated. You both did. I can kind of see where it would be easier in your situation because that imbalance isn't there because you both did it.

Again, I am definitely not saying to correct the imbalance by revenge cheating. Just wondering how a faithful spouse is able to not look at their WS and not envision him/her climaxing with their affair partner(s)


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Almostrecovered said:


> it's why they call 'em mind movies
> 
> I suppose the amount of tolerance depends on the individual and why R isn't for everyone even with a remorse WS


In my case I learned quickly to put them out of my mind.. to not give the POSOM the time in my head, he's not worth the brain power wasted. I know what happened, I don't want to visualize it and remember it constantly and let it eat away at me. I can't change it.. But only one second of a thought or an image can bring a very strong man to his knees...


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I think your question really only applies to physical affairs. 

For many people on TAM/CWI, they are reconciling from an EA. There are no mind movies, but there are doubts. But in an EA, there was no "sow your wild oats" with someone outside the marriage. They really just got their ego stroked for awhile and let their heart follow that.

I guess this is why a physical affair with someone they knew and had a little feeling for, would be a complete and total dealbreaker for me. I could not get past that elephant in the room. I would be gone.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Ok, I have read numerous posts about infidelity where WS, probably 99% of the time, will state their "reasons" for cheating on the BS that does point the finger at the BS, no matter what they say.
> 
> Ok, fine. So after reading such posts some will explain that they are in reconciliation. And if they can do it, great. I wish them luck. But then I read things like the BS understood what the WS was going through. So they both work together to save the marriage.
> 
> ...


As Iv'e mentioned before, my situation was different. My wife assured me that her affair was "not my fault."

Maybe that makes me feel better about what happened. 

And revenge cheating was not in my plans. But it happened in any case.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> I think your question really only applies to physical affairs.


For the most part yes. But an emotional affair still leaves a pachyderm in the room, for me anyway.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> As Iv'e mentioned before, my situation was different. My wife assured me that her affair was "not my fault."


And that is good that she didn't try to blame you.

Even if someone I was with told me their affair with someone wasn't my fault, it still, for me, will be seen as Husband, Wife, but wife f'd another man. Its just not the type of imbalance I will put up with and live with. I'd rather move on.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Good responses.
> 
> I just don't get how some can go on with reconciliation knowing their partner rode the baloney poney of some other guy to heaven, or their husband was balls deep many times over in another woman.
> 
> ...


We are the same man. For me, those thoughts, of her spreading for another man, sucking another man's **** in his truck, bending over for him in filthy bathrooms while her faithful husband and her dear children waited at home for her...were becoming like a cancer...eating my flesh and my soul away every day I was with her attempting R. Telling my kids for the second time that their parents were splitting up was utterly wrenching, yet I had absolutely no choice. 

How any man can put that aside and still love their WW is something I will never comprehend, and I am so very, very thankful I am not the kind of man who would allow myself to carry on with such a despicable human being.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I think your question really only applies to physical affairs.
> 
> For many people on TAM/CWI, they are reconciling from an EA. There are no mind movies, but there are doubts. But in an EA, there was no "sow your wild oats" with someone outside the marriage. They really just got their ego stroked for awhile and let their heart follow that.
> 
> I guess this is why a physical affair with someone they knew and had a little feeling for, would be a complete and total dealbreaker for me. I could not get past that elephant in the room. I would be gone.


:iagree:

My thoughts exactly. A PA is my dealbreaker. That is where i draw the line. Others might be able to, but not me. I respect those that can R after a PA, but it's just not for me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> For the most part yes. But an emotional affair still leaves a pachyderm in the room, for me anyway.


For some people an EA might be worse than a PA, if it was not involving emotional attachment.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

vellocet said:


> For the most part yes. But an emotional affair still leaves a pachyderm in the room, for me anyway.


Sure - it's tough to deal with. My wife's EA was completely devastating. But I don't get the "you got to do xxx with the OM and got away with it" vibe in our marriage.

She got punished - she lost one of her best friends. So I don't perceive a pachyderm or imbalance.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

russell28 said:


> .. to not give the POSOM the time in my head, he's not worth the brain power wasted.


There's the rub - the elephant in the room isn't the OM - it's the person lying next to you that stabbed you in the heart with a rusty, bacteria infested knife. The OM is merely a peripheral. I'm not speaking for you - but for myself here.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Healer said:


> There's the rub - the elephant in the room isn't the OM - it's the person lying next to you that stabbed you in the heart with a rusty, bacteria infested knife. The OM is merely a peripheral. I'm not speaking for you - but for myself here.


It's true, Its the two of them together doing what they were doing.. It's the cheating spouse as much as OM/W that disgusts you, I agree on that note.. That's why they take such a hit as far as the 'cherish' goes..


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Good responses.
> 
> I just don't get how some can go on with reconciliation knowing their partner rode the baloney poney of some other guy to heaven, or their husband was balls deep many times over in another woman.
> 
> ...


I think we visualize it... or at least I do. it's hard to stop. I think about not only what I know she's done, but what she might have done and not told me. And of course she enjoyed it or she wouldn't have done it. She says she doesn't look back on it fondly, and I'd like to believe her. That is a natural weakness for a BS I think. You can't focus on all of that forever if you want to R, anyway. 

If you can turn that elephant into a mouse, then eventually maybe you can come to live with that little covered-up hole in the wall. Some people need a new room sans elephant and I used to think I was one of those people. I still struggle with that sometimes.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It's true, Its the two of them together doing what they were doing.. It's the cheating spouse as much as OM/W that disgusts you, I agree on that note.. That's why they take such a hit as far as the 'cherish' goes..


How long have you been in R? Are you finding the pain and anger are diminishing? Worsening? Staying the same? Changing?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> I still struggle with that sometimes.


The struggle within.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Healer said:


> How long have you been in R? Are you finding the pain and anger are diminishing? Worsening? Staying the same? Changing?


It seems to get better over the long haul, but has peaks and valleys.. The challenge now is that she's working very hard, trying to be so good to me and the children.. but of course, that just reminds me of the 'where was that effort before she cheated' too. R isn't easy.. for the reasons highlighted here.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It seems to get better over the long haul, but has peaks and valleys.. The challenge now is that she's working very hard, trying to be so good to me and the children.. but of course, that just reminds me of the 'where was that effort before she cheated' too. R isn't easy.. for the reasons highlighted here.


I wish you the best, whatever happens.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

russell28 said:


> The challenge now is that she's working very hard, trying to be so good to me and the children.. but of course, that just reminds me of the 'where was that effort before she cheated' too. R isn't easy.. for the reasons highlighted here.


:iagree:

Bingo!

My fWW has really put in the effort to earn her chance at R. I too looked at her and wondered where the hell was that effort before she cheated? Instead, she chose to cheat. You can't help but feel resentful for that.

But....this fades with time and her continued heavy lifting. And you will eventually accept it. Its part of the healing process...But it's not easy. Not by a long shot. When I read stories here where the BS claims their are doing well in R after only a few weeks/months after DDay, I think someone is merely pushing it into the back of their mind for now. Those feelings, resentment, etc, will come back sooner or later.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

vellocet said:


> And in your case, you both are able to do that.


I wonder why she deleted her post? Nothing but positive in that


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

vellocet said:


> how do you deal with that imbalance? That huge elephant in the room that is *knowing your spouse F'd someone else? *


Thanks for reminding me vellocet... just when my elephant was starting to go away.

I'm kidding, kind of.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Ok, I have read numerous posts about infidelity where WS, probably 99% of the time, will state their "reasons" for cheating on the BS that does point the finger at the BS, no matter what they say. The blameshifting ended about 9 months after D-Day
> 
> Ok, fine. So after reading such posts some will explain that they are in reconciliation. And if they can do it, great. I wish them luck. But then I read things like the BS understood what the WS was going through. So they both work together to save the marriage.
> 
> ...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> My fWW has really put in the effort to earn her chance at R. I too looked at her and wondered where the hell was that effort before she cheated? Instead, she chose to cheat. You can't help but feel resentful for that.
> 
> But....this fades with time and her continued heavy lifting. And you will eventually accept it. Its part of the healing process...But it's not easy. Not by a long shot. When I read stories here where the BS claims their are doing well in R after only a few weeks/months after DDay, I think someone is merely pushing it into the back of their mind for now. Those feelings, resentment, etc, will come back sooner or later.


:iagree: :iagree:

My husband has admitted 100% fault pretty much from the get go. But it literally has taken YEARS. We're over 4 years out, and pretty much past having any kind of animal left in the room. Last time I had one of those "whothe****areyouand whydidyouhurtmesobad" moments was in the spring.

I don't expect it'll be gone for good, but day to day? It just isn't an issue any more.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

Yeah, phuck the mind movies and "reconciliation". 

It was around 9pm when I was outside at my patio doing work for my classes for my university classes. I went inside my house to go see my wife in our office. In the past several months, she had been playing WOW on the computer. I opened the door softly, and walked into the darkened office, dimly lit by just the light from the computer screen. My wife of 20 years was facing the computer, sitting in my large, black office chair. She had her headphones on--the big over ear kind, and was entirely oblivious and unaware of my entering the room.

I stood behind her, and saw a strange man's face on the screen who she was talking with. Gazing down at her, she was wearing only a bra and panties. She was moaning and stroking herself. 

I leaned right to her ear, and growled at her,

"What the phuck are you doing?"

I turned and walked out, furious, and in absolute shock.

Later in the week, she went with her girlfriend on a trip to San Francisco. She also saw her "friend". She told me "if our marriage is going to have a potential future, I need space from you". 

I laughed, and said "space? What you really mean is you want "space" so you can go phuck lover boy! Not only no--but phuck no! If you go on this trip, we are done!"

A week later, she returned from her "trip". 

I moved out, and soon signed the divorce papers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

russell28 said:


> "don't be a moron, sex is always good, and steamy sneaky hot affair sex is super awesome, especially in one of the other spouses beds, where it's super taboo!!"


So not too long ago, I had sex with my current girlfriend in my car at a truck stop. She thought it was SO awesome because she never did it in a car before and it was so hot blah, blah, blah... what the hell is the big deal?

She droned on and on for weeks about it and I don't get it at all. The whole "sneaky" "forbidden" "taboo" thing has ZERO appeal to me. Just seemed so stupid and immature. The sex was fine and all that (if anything a little uncomfortable cause of the confined space) but for her it was incredible. 

I'm sure this is the same kind of thing cheater's feel when they are slumming around but I fail to see any interest in it. Personally, I don't know why you'd throw a marriage away for sex in a dumpy motel room or cars. Seems pretty idiotic to me.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

badmemory said:


> Thanks for reminding me vellocet... just when my elephant was starting to go away.
> 
> I'm kidding, kind of.


If you actually do forget it you will be one of the few who does. For the rest of us it's basically a life-long thing. My elephant only went away because after 30 years of R I got a divorce. I saw my ex-husband last night for a family function and realized it's something I no longer think about at all when I see him now. And that's a wonderful feeling.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Openminded said:


> If you actually do forget it you will be one of the few who does. For the rest of us it's basically a life-long thing. My elephant only went away because after 30 years of R I got a divorce. I saw my ex-husband last night for a family function and realized it's something I no longer think about at all when I see him now. And that's a wonderful feeling.


Ya, the way I got rid of my elephant was to tell her to take a hike and take her elephant with her.


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## joseph242 (Feb 4, 2013)

Ill never forget,she cheated a few years back.I decided to stay because of financial reasons and we have a child together.People say "i would have left the *****" but its not always that easy when you have a home and child together.I would literally lose everything.
I have forgiven her on some level,i tolerate her and go through the motions for the sake of our son.We're civil to each other and the subject rarely comes up.But heres the bottom line after 10 years of marriage i don't love her the way a man should love his wife. She's more like a friend or just some girl that i'm banging,and the worse part ..she was the love of my life before i found out.
I tried the revenge thing too believe me. i'm in my mid 40's but look much younger i'm in great shape and work a job where i meet women everyday.Long story short i've banged quite a few girls for revenge but it doesn't make the pain go away it makes you feel worse,but thats just my experience.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

vellocet said:


> Ya, the way I got rid of my elephant was to tell her to take a hike and take her elephant with her.




After reading some of the stories of R on this site and reflecting on my own D, I actually believe that R is more difficult than D.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

workindad said:


> After reading some of the stories of R on this site and reflecting on my own D, I actually believe that R is more difficult than D.


I did both and R is many, many times more difficult than D. Wish I had known that 30 years ago when I decided to R. It does work for some but for others it doesn't.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

It can be a constant source of irritation, after all the WS gets everything, they screw around and have their fun, they get to keep their marriage( a bit rocky for awhile sure) and most sleep like a baby.

Most of us were brought up with the idea when you do a wrong you have a penalty or punishment for your actions, but a WS in reconciliation well the guilt thing, the heavy lifting thing not much else on the punishment horizon.

Not much to say after that, like much of R it's really comes down to what the BS can swallow, put behind them, forget about, live with. I swear there are days when you feel weak, a wimp, a pushover.

Oh and the elephant is usually on the BS's back, that's the heaviness you carry around with you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

vellocet said:


> For the most part yes. But an emotional affair still leaves a pachyderm in the room, for me anyway.



I agree. Remember, a lot of women get off on the idea that they can get a guy to things for her without _having to give it up (so to speak)_

So among us women, when our partners carry on EAs in which the EA partner is prioritised over us..... whether he is spending more quality time, more money, more of any other of his resources on her than on his (one sided) exclusive partner, there is something else in the room.

I often wondered if the competitive spirit was overtaking him and he thought it was hot that she had a bf but he was still going out with her.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Good responses.
> 
> I just don't get how some can go on with reconciliation knowing their partner rode the baloney poney of some other guy to heaven, or their husband was balls deep many times over in another woman.
> 
> Sorry to put it that way, but I don't think enough BS really visualize what their WS did and how much they enjoyed it.


Yeah, I'm back in the funk now, too.

Regardless, Vellocet is really able to cut to the heart of what torments a BS. This kind of thing really leaves you defeated.


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## manindespair (Jun 20, 2014)

badmemory said:


> Thanks for reminding me vellocet... just when my elephant was starting to go away.
> 
> I'm kidding, kind of.


hahaha exactly what i was thinking.... although my elephant has not gone away... I am trying to not let it drag me down!


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> In dealing with infidelity, you are dealing with two different items; the infidelity and the state of the marriage prior to and during the infidelity. The state of the marriage prior to an affair is not an excuse to have an affair. Both parties cause problems in the marriage but only one chooses to have an affair.
> 
> After an affair, to reconcile, the affair needs to be put in the forefront and dealt with and the "needs" or shortcoming in the marriage is a separate issue.
> 
> ...


This is a great post, but I'd like to point out one thing about the bolded comment. Often the marriage isn't in a very good place, because the spouse that cheated has decided they don't want to put any effort into the marrriage any longer because they are putting effort into a relationship they started up with someone else. The marriage isn't always in such a terrible state for both parties, sometimes it's just a 'grass is greener' perception issue. A desire for change, strange, something new and interesting. Then the justifications and marriage problems can follow. I know that's not always the case, but it often is. If you read around the Internet, you find often people in good marriages cheat just because it's what they do.

In my case, my wife's grandmother cheated on a man that stayed home, earned pay, didn't drink or abuse her.. then her mother cheats on a good husband, provider, was going to school.. wonderful girls, new house, working two jobs to pay for everything.. she cheats with a doormat guy that she eventually marries, then she cheats on him. He's been faithful to her.. he's in therapy, they are still married (god knows why). Then my wife cheats, she has a marriage that many would kill for, husband that adores her, takes her places, buys her things, tells her all the time how much he cherishes her.. she eats it up and also loves it when the guy at work tells her how wonderful she is and how horrible I am, because of silly reasons. When she got caught cheating, she really didn't have many 'good' reasons, like quite a few people I read about. She later admitted that it was all about her and had nothing to do with me or our marriage. She wasn't happy not because I wasn't making her happy, it had nothing to do with me. She wasn't happy because she was getting old, her aunt moved, her kids had grown etc.. etc.. She was feeling low and told a guy in work all her feelings, and put up a phoney front for me so I wouldn't figure it all out. I'm sure quite a few affairs go down this way and it's not always about a horrible marriage.

So my point.. in this family, three women, all cheat.. four if you include the aunt, and the men, none of them cheat. So is the common denominator, the men not being good enough spouse, not being perfect and contributing in a great way to the 'bad marriage'... OR, is it the women in this family had other issues, like character problems, things that created the bad marriage to justify the need for excitement and romance and whatever other bull they fed themselves to make it okay and keep them 'good people' in their minds.

A huge part of healing on the part of a person that cheats is admitting those character flaws, and putting them first. I think you illustrate that well in your post.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

johnAdams said:


> The marriage was not in a great place or the ws would not have cheated. That in no way is an excuse for the ws, they alone chose to cheat. However, for a successful reconciliation, a BS has to be willing to work on the marriage aspect of the problem.


Possibly, but equally possibly the cheating spouse is just someone who is impossible to please, self centered to the point of "disinhibition", and convinces themselves they are justified. Seems to get more common all the time.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

russell28 said:


> So my point.. in this family, three women, all cheat.. four if you include the aunt, and the men, none of them cheat. So is the common denominator, the men not being good enough spouse, not being perfect and contributing in a great way to the 'bad marriage'... OR, is it the women in this family had other issues, like character problems, things that created the bad marriage to justify the need for excitement and romance and whatever other bull they fed themselves to make it okay and keep them 'good people' in their minds.
> 
> .


This has been heavily true in my acquaintances. A huge majority were women that were interested only in getting what they wanted. The husbands were working, parenting, holding everything together, leading the family, but the wife just had to have more.


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## WolverineFan (Nov 26, 2013)

What you are struggling with is the very real issue that prevents many couples from being successful in their attempts to reconcile. Believe it or not, statistics show over-and-over again, that men have the hardest time forgiving and getting over a spouses affair. This is true even when he has been unfaithful as well. There is nothing easy about getting over it, reconciliation takes hard work and it almost always requires the help of a third party. I highly recommend the book _Torn Asunder: Recovering from An Extramarital Affair_ by Dave Carder and Duncan Jaenicke. This is a step-by-step process that has helped lots of couples navigate through the struggles of reconciliation effectively. I also know about a Christian organization which offers a free counseling session by phone if you are interested. Send a private message and I will forward the link. My thoughts and prayers are with you.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

WolverineFan said:


> I highly recommend the book _Torn Asunder: Recovering from An Extramarital Affair_ by Dave Carder and Duncan Jaenicke.


Probably a good book for others wanting to reconcile.

For me, not necessary as 1) I'll never get married again or commit, and 2) even if I did, the book would be really short and advise me to recover, leave them.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Velocet, how does the imbalance effect me, how do I deal?

It makes me feel extremely angry and cheated! No getting around it. So much so that after 3 years from Dday, FWH and I are going back into MC. 

Spent 3 years since Dday, dealing with TTing, continued attempts by OW#2 to contact with FWH and now I feel we are finally getting to the real business of R. 

Husband had two LTAs, 13 years apart over the span of 23 years of secrets, lies. First was undisclosed, I was gaslighted when suspicions arose, evidence of the second was discovered by me after 6 years of repeated suspicions but again gaslighted and I accepted the lies based on trust and denial. 

Now that I finally feel the OW#2 has given up and am secure that FWH has absolutely no interest in the double life of As, I realize that I never dealt with the extreme anger/resentment of his decision to conduct an open marriage without my consent or participation. 

I resent the years lost for me when his affection and attention was displaced from me/children to OW. 
I resent that he spent his sexual virility on them, I got leftovers and then completely cut off sexually by him and then blamed for being a prude and frigid.
I resent that now that the fun and games are over, his libido is not as active as it was for them. Will I forever be associated with vanilla sex for him and hot affair sex with OW?
I resent that he got to "fall in love" and reap the pleasures of that kind of relationship.
I resent that I got cheated out of a fulfilling marriage, affections, cooperation, sexual pleasure from him or a compatible partner. When he felt justified by my flaws to cheat, why couldn't he have come to me with his concerns in order to fix our marriage or simply hand me divorce papers and release me to find love elsewhere with dignity and honor. 
I resent that he shared his negative sexual and personality perceptions of me with the women he invited into the private life of our relationship. 
I resent that he never felt the public consequences of disclosure as we agreed to keep it secret to protect our children and avoid scrutiny and gossip into our private life.
I resent that he felt OK with risking our childrens' happiness and security, what we built over 35 years, our mutual friends, the positive and good things in our marriage, my trust and respect for pleasures that were so superficial he could abandon them without a second thought when discovered. 
I resent that I have to deal with the lion's share of pain and heavy lifting in R. Oh, granted, he is totally remorseful, dishonored and ashamed of his choices, lifestyle, the pain he has inflicted on me, but has done as little as possible in serious introspection, helping me through triggers, answering questions just like any other WS would do when caught. That's why we are back in MC, so he can finally work through all that without feeling I am punishing him, can't move on, dwelling on the past: that it is MY problem to deal with. 

Like John Adams said, there are two levels of work involved in infidelity: the dysfunction of the pre-affair marriage and the fallout from the infidelity itself, including all the mistakes made along the way after DDay. 

I completely own and have made strenuous attempts to change the parts of my personality that made me "hard to love" in his own words. I will listen and sympathize with his feelings of betrayal, hurt and rejection he claims I inflicted upon him which led to his abandonment of me in favor of OW. I will apologize for my part in hurting our marriage. 

We BOTH have to face the issues and resolve to change those patterns that destroyed our marriage: unwillingness to communicate honestly, conflict-avoidance, withdrawal, selfishness, self-centeredness, conditional love, grudge-keeping, verbal assaulting, lack of boundaries and commitment and forgiveness. 

And he is going to have to realize that in order for a true and complete R which I think is totally possible that he has got to HEAR me, seriously face his own flaws and help me through the bad days, and triggers by simply listening and responding in a reassuring manner without thinking first that I am out to get him. I need honesty, reassurance and commitment, day in, day out. 

So Velocet, we are both committed to getting past this and rebuilding our marriage but a he77 of a lot of anger, resentment, humiliation has got to be dealt with before we get to that point. Thanks for opening this thread and opportunity to vent. 

I feel better already! LOL


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Forest said:


> This has been heavily true in my acquaintances. A huge majority were women that were interested only in getting what they wanted. The husbands were working, parenting, holding everything together, leading the family, but the wife just had to have more.


Good point Forest.

I would dare say it goes the other way for women too.

Our society is loaded with self-entitlement. Sex is cheap. It seems it really has become a sense of wanting more and not having self-discipline.

We are obese, we have addictions, we want instant gratification, we don't want to sacrifice, we want entitlements, we avoid consequences, we forgot how to work hard....

Some of us grew up believing in morality. We thought integrity was a benchmark all strived to achieve. We believed in religion. We believed our parents. Others didn't. We married someone who gave lip service to vows. They valued their gratification over their integrity. Did they have morality as a compass? No.

It made me realize that sex is not "special" to most. Morality is only there to protect our fantasy of what we felt was unique. Sex, for many, is meaningless. It is lust.

We have little impact on the value society places on fidelity.

We can try to find a new partner that shares our values. We simply do not know if they truly do.

Accept it. Life consists of a majority of people driven by self-interest. Public virtue is evaporating or a façade.

Enjoy the flaws of others. Realize nobody is all that great. There certainly are more stones than gems.

Know that you can pursue or eliminate people in your life. Let them know that too.

Never do more for those that do not deserve it. It simply feeds the beast.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Good responses.
> 
> I just don't get how some can go on with reconciliation knowing their partner rode the baloney poney of some other guy to heaven, or their husband was balls deep many times over in another woman.
> 
> ...


I visualized it and I got the audio too, at least on one unfinished handjob in the car during their lunch break. 

I'm not interested in having an affair, a ONS, nothing like that. At one time I did entertain the idea of an RA but had enough sense to not act on it. Very easily could have taken a coworker up on an offer. He is my type physically and apparently vice versa but I won't go there. Even if I was single, I wouldn't even date this guy knowing what I know now......has no problem hitting on married women. If I were single and into FWB situations, I would likely sleep with him as I find him very physically attractive. 

Rarely now do I have feelings the relationship is out of balance in the way you describe. My WS is lucky I chose to reconcile with him given what he did. It's also nice having the realization I'll be fine whether R works or not. Totally different headspace a couple years ago. I've never cheated in 20+ years of marriage and he can't say that. He should consider R a gift because I won't do it again and he's lucky I even gave it a shot. He HAS put in the work. 

What balances it all out for me is I know I value myself and our marriage enough to not just lay down with anyone who comes along because I might be "unhappy" or whatever. I'll leave before that ever happens. My WS should feel the marriage is out of balance because he had poor boundaries and made awful choices and now (and since) has had to put in the work to prove he's made and making changes. 

I don't need to screw anyone else to right the ship...although I can definitely see why a BS would have those feelings and/or consider doing so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> I agree that sometimes the ws is so self centered that they think of only themselves. In those cases, the BS could do back flips and not satisfy their spouse. Even in a case like this, there is a problem with the marriage, at least for the self centered spouse. The BS may have even seen these tendencies prior to an affair, but did not know how to handle the situation. I would think a case like this would even be more difficult to reconcile. I think this would be a case of divorce and move on.


Trust me, as someone who tried very hard to R (after a long-term EA) with a profoundly - almost comically - self-centered spouse, there really is nothing to be done in such a case but divorce and move on. As my WS once angrily told me "Not everything is about you, you know?!?! Sometimes things aren't about you at all!" What he meant and was trying to convey at that time was that his relationship with his EA partner wasn't any of my business. But his statement was actually very correct, if not in quite the way he meant. It wasn't ever about me or our marriage, but about _him_. It was about what was broken in him. 

In my case, there was never a feeling of "he got to do something I don't get to do". Simply because it had never occurred to me to cheat on my husband. I really was just that committed to my marriage that I'd tuned out other men as even a remote possibility. I'd never been with anyone else. I didn't want to be with anyone else. I wanted him. So I never had any feelings that he got to have fun that I didn't get to have. That just wasn't there for me. 

Mind movies, on the other hand, were to be had in spades. That's just an inevitable product of finding out, all in one 15 minute conversation, about a _decade and a half long _spate of serial cheating (that had preceded the EA we'd been in R over) of every possible variety with more than a generous handful of other women. They mostly stopped once I moved out when our divorce was final. If I think about what he did now, they come back. Mostly I've just trained myself not to think about him or what he did anymore than I absolutely have to.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

allwillbewell said:


> So Velocet, we are both committed to getting past this and rebuilding our marriage but a he77 of a lot of anger, resentment, humiliation has got to be dealt with before we get to that point. Thanks for opening this thread and opportunity to vent.
> 
> I feel better already! LOL


Good reply. I hope it works out for you two.

But do you think that if you get to that point of getting past it that the fact he had sex with others while married to you will still eat away at you? If so, this is the elephant of which I speak. There would still be that imbalance that just makes things not quite so right, IMHO.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

allwillbewell said:


> Velocet, how does the imbalance effect me, how do I deal?
> 
> It makes me feel extremely angry and cheated!
> 
> ...



Way to cut loose with both barrels!

"I'm sorry. It was a mistake. I wasn't thinking." What a pale and watery load of crap apologies can be.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Forest said:


> Possibly, but equally possibly the cheating spouse is just someone who is impossible to please, self centered to the point of "disinhibition", and convinces themselves they are justified. Seems to get more common all the time.


I agree, but I think the aspect you brought up is FAR more likely the case. After all, the BS was in the same marriage that was "not in a good place" and did not choose to also justify cheating too. Seems there will always be the mindset out there that problems with the relationship CAUSE the affair elephant to move into the living room, not the person who invited it in. 

Also, there are WS's who later concede they would have cheated regardless of the state of the marriage, good or bad. Some people will cheat on those who care about them regardless. Marital problems are on the couple, the affair is 100% on the WS. There are plenty who have gone through having unmet needs, and worse, and STILL don't make that choice. Integrity, honoring their commitments, etc....starting to seem, for some, those values are a thing of the past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Yea the imbalance will always be there...life is not fair and bad things happen to good people. What I am working on is to accept that reality, consider the big picture and realize for all the pain I feel, there are countless other souls in the world who have it far, far worse than I and my little broken heart... suck it up and count your blessings


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

TryingToRecover said:


> I agree, but I think the aspect you brought up is FAR more likely the case. After all, the BS was in the same marriage that was "not in a good place" and did not choose to also justify cheating too. Seems there will always be the mindset out there that problems with the relationship CAUSE the affair elephant to move into the living room, not the person who invited it in.
> 
> Also, there are WS's who later concede they would have cheated regardless of the state of the marriage, good or bad. Some people will cheat on those who care about them regardless. Marital problems are on the couple, the affair is 100% on the WS. There are plenty who have gone through having unmet needs, and worse, and STILL don't make that choice. Integrity, honoring their commitments, etc....starting to seem, for some, those values are a thing of the past.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right. My personal experiences have largely leaned toward a spouse, more often a wife than husband, that feels they are entitled to every thing they decide they want. No negotiation, no consideration, just "this is the way I want it". 

If their wants aren't met, they go the affair route. To them wants
= needs. I'll reiterate: wants = needs, buster.

I know one woman that overspent to the point of the IRS placing a lien on their home. Because her husband tried to rein in the spending, resentment festered, and she had an affair with a ugly little troll, just for spite. I knew them well. Husband was no simpering "beta" (ugh) type by any means, yet treated her great. When he dared bring up the topic of financial responsibility, its straight to skankdom.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Forest said:


> I know one woman that overspent to the point of the IRS placing a lien on their home. Because her husband tried to rein in the spending, resentment festered, and she had an affair with a ugly little troll, just for spite.


That's just bullsh**. He should have catered to her "needs"


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## loyallad (Aug 1, 2014)

Forest don't you think the overspending and lack of control that woman had was just a symptom of selfishness and she was truly self centered and having an A was just more of the same? My WW has a real problem with money as well and she is very self centered and totally selfish to the point it's almost childish.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

loyallad said:


> Forest don't you think the overspending and lack of control that woman had was just a symptom of selfishness and she was truly self centered and having an A was just more of the same? My WW has a real problem with money as well and she is very self centered and totally selfish to the point it's almost childish.


So did my XWW and she was indeed selfish all the way around. Life has improved without her as my spouse.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

loyallad said:


> Forest don't you think the overspending and lack of control that woman had was just a symptom of selfishness and she was truly self centered and having an A was just more of the same? My WW has a real problem with money as well and she is very self centered and totally selfish to the point it's almost childish.



Mostly, yes. Hard to deny. She is still a friend of ours, and has many great qualities, but just has a screw loose when it comes to appearances and such. Everything has to be just right, but yet something is always not-quite-right. So, something else is needed to correct that. New drapes, new furniture, a different recipe, etc.

Husband was like Cary Grant in a more athletic frame. Big strong handsome guy, engineer. Great income, provider, involved dad, but she always had to push for more. The affair was pure "see what I can do" stuff. Senseless.

After the divorce, he's had several girlfriends, she was became a workaholic with no life. She's got her nice drapes, and swimming pool, though. The divorce messed up their kid. Finally ended up with dad for stability. Bad Deal.

Just senseless. He was perfectly capable of leading the family, but she was just NEVER satisfied.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Good responses.
> 
> I just don't get how some can go on with reconciliation knowing their partner rode the baloney poney of some other guy to heaven, or their husband was balls deep many times over in another woman.
> 
> ...


This is why R for me is out of the question if its a PA. I just know myself and how my mind works. That's me. Everyone is different.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I’m with Allwillbewell… it’s the resentment that kills and poisons. It’s the way, even years later, that it hits you while you look at your WS and the memories come forth… and hate them for giving you good damn reasons to look at them like that; This new demon of hurt and damage. And it’s all unbidden: You can be filled with happiness, sitting there with your spouse, laughing, enjoying the moment, then this demon shows up in your head that screams “Why are you enjoying this! She did this same stuff with others! Why does she get to have those moments AND mine like some f’n cake eater!”… Then you tell your head to STFU and try to recapture how you felt just moments before… but you can’t completely. 

Because of their choices, actions, etc. are now part of your memories and part of how you define who they are. With luck, you have a lot more fond memories so those ugly ones aren’t the defining ones. After DD, because you are so focused on the nasty, it is easy to simply not look at the good memories. I’d think every now and again even divorced spouses think of their ex with some fond memory. And like us, your head quickly counters with “F-them! They threw that away!” 

It isn’t easy to dissipate all that. But piece by piece, step by step, you have to keep working at your perception of them on a whole. The good news is with a remorseful one, they are working hard and giving you tons of ‘good stuff’ that doesn’t feed your hate engine inside. Divorce’s don’t need to go through that intentional process of trying to find that good stuff to counter the bad. You just hold onto that bad and feel great about your choice to get away from it… that’s easier IMHO. In R, it’s trying to accept that they did this, it is part of our relationship now and slowly seeing it isn’t the defining characteristic of the relationship. I still have that monster inside screaming, but I’d bet someone who divorces also has one. They get to feed theirs, I try to starve mine.

So you won’t ever find a way to balance that elephant. You can’t just wish it away or pretend it isn’t there. Best to just learn how to put it on a diet and train the elephant so it doesn’t continue to destroy the place. It’s just part of your life now, but you need to see it doesn’t define life with your WS.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Personally, for me, it's like a 'white elephant' now...


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Definition: "A white elephant is an idiom for a *valuable* but burdensome possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness or worth."

Remove the "valuable" part and yes, I had my white elephant in my marriage.

With the white elephant came a pink one.

Once I got rid of the white one, the pink one disappeared as well.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<But for those of you that are reconciling, but not successful yet or not sure if you will be, how do you deal with that imbalance? That huge elephant in the room that is knowing your spouse F'd someone else? And if revenge cheating isn't in your plans, as it should NOT be, how do you overcome this imbalance of knowing you were completely faithful, and your spouse got to have their little fun?>>

A lot of the responses assume there was a PA , but that was not the case with my FCH. If there had been, I might not even be here right now, it would be over and done for us. 

At first I said the virtual affair he had hurt as much as I imagine a PA would because of the deception and betrayal, the I love yous and sexting. In retrospect it could have been worse, and for that much I am grateful. There is not a chance I will ever run into the OW as she is 1000 miles away and "happily married" (not sure how that worked). There is no STD or pregnancy threat.

Still there were times, and maybe are once in a while now, where I DO feel like he got away with it since we are still together and he got what he wanted, which was both of us, and then just me, at least after D-Day. Of course he told me it was ending, they were just friends again, blah, blah, blah, but I had heard that before.

Almost 17 months have gone by and the resentment has faded for the most part. He tells me how glad he is that I gave him another chance, again.

I never considered doing anything of the sort myself. The worse I did was go shopping and buy myself something nice a few times but I am too frugal to do any financial harm either. 

I don't really know exactly what is going on inside his head about the past. His own demons may balance out my resentment, who knows. He doesn't bring it up but will answer if I ask him about it, but who knows what he is really thinking, if anything on a daily basis.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<This is a great post, but I'd like to point out one thing about the bolded comment. Often the marriage isn't in a very good place, because the spouse that cheated has decided they don't want to put any effort into the marrriage any longer because they are putting effort into a relationship they started up with someone else. The marriage isn't always in such a terrible state for both parties, sometimes it's just a 'grass is greener' perception issue. A desire for change, strange, something new and interesting. Then the justifications and marriage problems can follow. I know that's not always the case, but it often is. If you read around the Internet, you find often people in good marriages cheat just because it's what they do.>>

I have to agree with this. Yes, the marriage wasn't working well, but why? And when did it start to deteriorate? Sometimes the BS doesn't know how the potential WS is feeling, long before the affair has even started.

The first time for us my FCH was unhappy and tired a lot but blamed it on his business and other extraneous things. He was at a point in his life where he thought he should be doing better, making more money, living in a nicer house. There wasn't much I could do about these feelings myself. I tried to support him emotionally and with his business even though I had a full time job and two boys to take care of too.

I think at this point future WSs start telling themselves they deserve more and making a case for the affair to happen. They find a willing partner who tells them everything they want to hear and suddenly their spouse is the bad guy.

I was shocked the first time. I had no clue he was even thinking this way and suddenly he was telling me my efforts to do something about us was "Too little too late!"

I know "mid-life crisis" sounds trite and tiresome but, in his case the first time, I really think he felt like a failure and then found someone to blame, me.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Its not just that your spouse had her/his physical act, or emotional affair---its what went with it

Its the lying/manipulating/deceiving, and the willingness to do all those things, the happy and satisfying willingness to do those things----ALL THE WHILE KNOWING THERE WAS AN INNOCENT/LOVING/CARING Partner, who at that point in time the cheater did not give a sh*t about, also there were in some mge's loving/dependent/innocent/wonderful kids, who the cheater once again---did not give a sh*t about, as the cheater knowing full well what the repercussions would be, once they were "outed" willingly, and happily still went physical, or in some instances emotional, which can be just as bad.


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## loyallad (Aug 1, 2014)

PamJ said:


> <<This is a great post, but I'd like to point out one thing about the bolded comment. Often the marriage isn't in a very good place, because the spouse that cheated has decided they don't want to put any effort into the marrriage any longer because they are putting effort into a relationship they started up with someone else. The marriage isn't always in such a terrible state for both parties, sometimes it's just a 'grass is greener' perception issue. A desire for change, strange, something new and interesting. Then the justifications and marriage problems can follow. I know that's not always the case, but it often is. If you read around the Internet, you find often people in good marriages cheat just because it's what they do.>>
> 
> I have to agree with this. Yes, the marriage wasn't working well, but why? And when did it start to deteriorate? Sometimes the BS doesn't know how the potential WS is feeling, long before the affair has even started.
> 
> ...


It's kinda like being entered in a talent contest and not being told you're in it. WS knows your talent and doesn't care for it. The other contestant is amazing. Doesn't matter how you spruce it up BS finishes last.

I went through a lot of that stuff with WW. It got to the point I couldn't do anything right, got scolded so many times for things I did or didn't do (did too much around the house-she claimed made her look bad, other times if I didn't do everything then I wasn't doing my fair share). Lots of passive-aggressive behavior from her. Would tell me how I mistreated her family, her friends, even tried to tell me how I mistreated my own family. All this stuff just so she could justify "hating" me and how she needed someone better that was good to her such as POSOM.

After almost going crazy a couple of times I finally decided I was not going to let her A define my life. The elephant may come visit some, much to my disdain, but I opened the door for him to go out. Knowing my WW screwed around on me is tough. The pain, the heartbreak, the embarrassment that it caused me damn near ate me alive. When the stupid actions of someone else (especially your spouse-someone you would think would care enough not to hurt you like that) totally derails your life that just shows their selfishness. When they do that and have no remorse it can leave you in a cold lonely place full of dispair.

For those of you that have seen the Lion King when the wise monkey hit the lion in the head the lion asked him why he did that.The monkey basically told the lion yes it hurt but it is now in the past, learn from it. Try not to get hit in the head again. Maybe that sounds trite but to wallow in the dispair of being cheated on starts to give the affair power over the rest of your life. A wise woman (my mother) told me once "you pay for your sins sometimes it just takes awhile". Maybe that helps me to cope, I don't know but it's better than sulking around the rest of my life because my WS lacks morals and doesn't know what it means to love someone. I truly thinks she can't because deep down she doesn't love herself.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

loyallad said:


> It's kinda like being entered in a talent contest and not being told you're in it. WS knows your talent and doesn't care for it. The other contestant is amazing. Doesn't matter how you spruce it up BS finishes last.
> 
> I went through a lot of that stuff with WW. It got to the point I couldn't do anything right, got scolded so many times for things I did or didn't do (did too much around the house-she claimed made her look bad, other times if I didn't do everything then I wasn't doing my fair share). Lots of passive-aggressive behavior from her. Would tell me how I mistreated her family, her friends, even tried to tell me how I mistreated my own family. All this stuff just so she could justify "hating" me and how she needed someone better that was good to her such as POSOM.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I've lurked here for a while not sure what to say on such a complex issue. R is just not an easy path, yet neither is divorce. My D was way worse than this R, but Dday was one of the most traumatic things I've ever been through because I trusted him implicitly, more than anyone ever before.

I stayed because he is the love of my life and no OW can ever remove that from me. And though I have good days and bad days, he is what he is to me.

I also stayed to prevent my son from having to live with two dads like I did which was h3ll on earth.

I also see it as a crucible of growth. This relationship has forced massive growth on my part and his.

The memories of the A trauma are hard. I just honor it as is and work to not wreck myself on it which takes accurate perspective and acceptance that it cannot be undone, BUT it can be redeemed. It helps he doesn't view her the same as he did. Her screwing her husbands brother at the same time she was trying to do mine woke him up.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

The elephant got a little smaller,for a while, and then it got too big for the room. I was totally denied any intimacy. It dwindled from hardly anything (post hysterical bonding 16 months ago) to zero. Really it was just very obvious evidence that it was game over. I'm way on top of the affair demon now but it likes to take the odd swipe at me when I least expect it. I smack it down fast but it is there - it will always be there. From time to time I riff on the fact that we were on family holidays, doing all types of family stuff, and the whole time her body and mind belonged to someone else (despite the denials). I ignored the red flags; it was like I was clueless. We had fallen out of love and I had let myself go - it was nasty and then the player played his trump. I moved into another room and we pay the bills and raise our children and have little to do with each other. I'm out and about when I can and it's fun - you forget what you have been missing. Besides the denial of intimacy the ultimate kill shot was her consistent refusal to work on R. Even though she originally apologised she has morphed into this creature that thinks no intimacy and no discussion equals a relationship - wrong. I live my own life now and I love it. She still thinks we are in a relationship even though I have pulled the pin. That's her problem. I've got a life to enjoy.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Forest said:


> Mostly, yes. Hard to deny. She is still a friend of ours, and has many great qualities, but just has a screw loose when it comes to appearances and such. Everything has to be just right, but yet something is always not-quite-right. So, something else is needed to correct that. New drapes, new furniture, a different recipe, etc.
> 
> Husband was like Cary Grant in a more athletic frame. Big strong handsome guy, engineer. Great income, provider, involved dad, but she always had to push for more. The affair was pure "see what I can do" stuff. Senseless.
> 
> ...


Knowing her as you still do, does she a) have any regret over the affair and b) not even attempting Reconciliation?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

davecarter said:


> Knowing her as you still do, does she a) have any regret over the affair and b) not even attempting Reconciliation?


I'm sure she regrets the affair greatly. It was a stupid, childish thing, and I think she'd admit that. It was a revenge response to other issues in their marriage.

I believe it all came down to a classic power struggle. Both were strong people. The husband, I believe, was willing and able to share power and decisions. He did plenty to try and get along. She, however, seems to go thru life with blinders on. She sees her goals, and pushes for them regardless of what's going on around her. He was strong, but reasonable. She is strong but unreasonable, at least where marriage is concerned.

Neither ever remarried. I feel that she always felt her husband was the only man for her, and still had attraction for him. She just could not accept giving in to any compromise, so R was impossible. Now, 20 years later, I think she has regrets, but accepts it.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Forest said:


> I'm sure she regrets the affair greatly. It was a stupid, childish thing, and I think she'd admit that. It was a revenge response to other issues in their marriage.
> 
> I believe it all came down to a classic power struggle. Both were strong people. The husband, I believe, was willing and able to share power and decisions. He did plenty to try and get along. She, however, seems to go thru life with blinders on. She sees her goals, and pushes for them regardless of what's going on around her. He was strong, but reasonable. She is strong but unreasonable, at least where marriage is concerned.
> 
> Neither ever remarried. I feel that she always felt her husband was the only man for her, and still had attraction for him. She just could not accept giving in to any compromise, so R was impossible. Now, 20 years later, I think she has regrets, but accepts it.


That's crazy. What a total waste. :scratchhead:


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## loyallad (Aug 1, 2014)

Amazing how someone is so wrapped up in their own little selfish wants they can't see how this can destroy a relationship that is full of promise and potential.

When I married my WW I didn't see the signs of her selfishness and where this could be headed. Her mother blames WW's older sister for spoiling my WW when they were kids. Explains a lot of why WW acts the way she does. WW and her mother both "flunk" geography. Denial ain't that river in Egypt.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

loyallad said:


> Amazing how someone is so wrapped up in their own little selfish wants they can't see how this can destroy a relationship that is full of promise and potential.
> 
> When I married my WW I didn't see the signs of her selfishness and where this could be headed. Her mother blames WW's older sister for spoiling my WW when they were kids. Explains a lot of why WW acts the way she does. WW and her mother both "flunk" geography. Denial ain't that river in Egypt.


At least when I look back on mine...it had to end or _drastically _change....or one of us was going to kill the other. :banghead:
So, for me, there really wasn't a true 'Elephant-In-The-Room'...it was more my jealousy and humiliation than pain-of-infidelity.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

loyallad said:


> It's kinda like being entered in a talent contest and not being told you're in it. WS knows your talent and doesn't care for it. The other contestant is amazing. Doesn't matter how you spruce it up BS finishes last..


I like that analogy. 

What you need to recognize though is how rigged it is. The spouse is being graded on a much more vast list of criteria... So little things like how often you clean the bathroom or help the kids with homework or snoring or ____ are being judged as well. And you are judged 24/7 at your best and worst down to the smallest little detail. Add to it, that because they are cheating, they need you to be the loser so they don't feel they are trading down.

The OP is just being judged on a very shallow set of criteria like "makes me laugh", "listens to my stories" and they only are seen when they can be prepared and at their best. And your spouse wants them to win the competition. They aren't going to desire the OP more if they are less than you.... so the rig it all to make them shine the brightest.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

_Re: The big elephant in the room
It's kinda like being entered in a talent contest and not being told you're in it. WS knows your talent and doesn't care for it. The other contestant is amazing. Doesn't matter how you spruce it up BS finishes last..

I went through a lot of that stuff with WW. It got to the point I couldn't do anything right, got scolded so many times for things I did or didn't do (did too much around the house-she claimed made her look bad, other times if I didn't do everything then I wasn't doing my fair share). Lots of passive-aggressive behavior from her. Would tell me how I mistreated her family, her friends, even tried to tell me how I mistreated my own family. *All this stuff just so she could justify "hating" me and how she needed someone better that was good to her such as POSOM.*_

I , and probably many BSs here can relate to these statements.

I didn't know about the affairs for 4-5 months so I was the only one out of the 3 of this that did not know I was being critiqued. Both OW made comments (texts) I saw that indicated my FWH had complained about me and one directly from my FWH saying things about me via test as well.

So nice to be talked about and judged when you cannot defend yourself or let the OW know there was a whole 'nother 50% o of the story.

The second part I've read about here several times. The WS starts acting mean, or taking offence at everything said when no ill will was intended. My FWH would go from normal to pissed off in 2 seconds flat. All time make himself feel justified in what he was doing.

Thank God that has stopped, did immediately once he realized after D Day how deep into denial he actually was and what he almost lost.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Vellocet mentions the WS blaming the BS. Is that to maintain some leverage and power in the relationship. Having been bad, still push BS back on their heels.

I wonder how much success men have had with stopping an EA/PA, success in R or post D with the MMSLP. Strategy. How has that improved themselves and their relationship. It can definitely alter the sex rank. How effective has it been for you guys. Any stories along those lines...?


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Racer said:


> I like that analogy.
> 
> What you need to recognize though is how rigged it is. The spouse is being graded on a much more vast list of criteria... So little things like how often you clean the bathroom or help the kids with homework or snoring or ____ are being judged as well. And you are judged 24/7 at your best and worst down to the smallest little detail. Add to it, that because they are cheating, they need you to be the loser so they don't feel they are trading down.
> 
> The OP is just being judged on a very shallow set of criteria like "makes me laugh", "listens to my stories" and they only are seen when they can be prepared and at their best. And your spouse wants them to win the competition. They aren't going to desire the OP more if they are less than you.... so the rig it all to make them shine the brightest.


Oh, definitely. The WS never tells the AP his or her dirty little secrets about their imperfections-they have none! They are funny and sweet and attentive and supportive and always available. They even give each other advice! Is that funny or what? Two cheaters telling each other how to live their lives. The 2nd OW went so far as to ask my FWH why he was still with me, when was he "getting out' ? 

The only saving grace of that sick convo was his answer "I am not ready to do that" and then saying her preferred not to talk about me. That day at least. Maybe he was starting to feel guilty finally. We had been trying to reconnect for about 6 weeks at that point-work on our relationship and had made some progress, I thought. Of course I didn't know about his side hobby at the time.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

i didnt and I wont
there was never ever a chance I would R
a one nighter is one thing, I can get past it...but a prolonged affair is unforgivable...the lies, deception, manipulation, ugh...says alot about what a selfish pos the ws is...no cootchie is worth that...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think there's a conflict of biological programming in men ... they don't want a tainted wife but at the same time they don't want to lose. "Reclaiming" can be an initial primal goal, maintain possession/control and destroy the OM. There's the initial desire to 'protect' the wife from the predatorial OM who has 'obviously' influenced her. None of this logical, it's all emotional.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't really understand the allergic reaction this forum as a whole seems to have with a betrayed spouse shouldering some of the blame.

I was a crap wife for a couple of years. My husband tried, as much as his personality allowed, to find out what was wrong and fix things. But then he gave up. He didn't, as it happens, cheat, but if he had I would have been at least a bit responsible. And if I hadn't got my head out of my arse for another few years, I think it would have been an understandable response to a difficult situation.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

Lyris said:


> I don't really understand the allergic reaction this forum as a whole seems to have with a betrayed spouse shouldering some of the blame.
> 
> I was a crap wife for a couple of years. My husband tried, as much as his personality allowed, to find out what was wrong and fix things. But then he gave up. He didn't, as it happens, cheat, but if he had I would have been at least a bit responsible. And if I hadn't got my head out of my arse for another few years, I think it would have been an understandable response to a difficult situation.


IMO 

If you are not happy in your marriage, and your needs are unmett, you must:

Divorse
Tell your spose, try to work things out.

this is the riogth thing to do, for you, for your Spose, for your kids, etc.

In other hand cheating is a choise take by one to staop out the marriage with the spouse knowing, thats why cheating is 100% blame on WS.

IMO is like a contact, you should act as contract says, if you break it the contract clauseles are not longer on.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Lyris said:


> I don't really understand the allergic reaction this forum as a whole seems to have with a betrayed spouse shouldering some of the blame.
> 
> I was a crap wife for a couple of years. My husband tried, as much as his personality allowed, to find out what was wrong and fix things. But then he gave up. He didn't, as it happens, cheat, but if he had I would have been at least a bit responsible. And if I hadn't got my head out of my arse for another few years, I think it would have been an understandable response to a difficult situation.


Yet there are some BS here that honestly say they were not a "crap" husband or wife. There were more accurately being crapped on, did not accept it willingly, and THEN the wayward cheats.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

staystrong said:


> I think there's a conflict of biological programming in men ... they don't want a tainted wife but at the same time they don't want to lose. "Reclaiming" can be an initial primal goal, maintain possession/control and destroy the OM. There's the initial desire to 'protect' the wife from the predatorial OM who has 'obviously' influenced her. None of this logical, it's all emotional.


Like your summation here. The "tainted", "reclaiming, and "destroy" analogy is right on target with me.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I think there's a conflict of biological programming in men ... they don't want a tainted wife but at the same time they don't want to lose. "Reclaiming" can be an initial primal goal, maintain possession/control and destroy the OM. There's the initial desire to 'protect' the wife from the predatorial OM who has 'obviously' influenced her. None of this logical, it's all emotional.


Not for me. I actually thanked the OM for taking her off my hands and said she is his problem now.

Funny thing, after that face to face meeting, I got a call from her mother asking why I told him that and reminded him how untrustworthy she is. I guess it caused a huge fight, and I was the azzhole then :rofl:


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I don't really understand the allergic reaction this forum as a whole seems to have with a betrayed spouse shouldering some of the blame.
> 
> I was a crap wife for a couple of years. My husband tried, as much as his personality allowed, to find out what was wrong and fix things. But then he gave up. He didn't, as it happens, cheat, but if he had I would have been at least a bit responsible. And if I hadn't got my head out of my arse for another few years, I think it would have been an understandable response to a difficult situation.


There are very few of us, IMO, that will say that we were perfect and that there weren't problems in the marriage that were partly our fault. I know I wasn't perfect.

But you have problems in a marriage, then you end up having one spouse that takes it a HUGE step further and royally f***s over the other spouse. And once that happens, the BS shouldn't cower like a puppy dog and blame themselves for their choice to cheat.

If approached about marital problems I sure as hell would have been receptive to it. Once she spread her legs for other men, I'm no longer interested. She's her new man's problem now. And what a problem it has become for him.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Forest said:


> Yet there are some BS here that honestly say they were not a "crap" husband or wife. There were more accurately being crapped on, did not accept it willingly, and THEN the wayward cheats.


Yes, but as we have been told time and time again, there had to have been SOMETHING we did or didn't do to get cheated on.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Yes, but as we have been told time and time again, there had to have been SOMETHING we did or didn't do to get cheated on.


Yes of course, married a cheted is the thing BS did to get chetd on!!!

BS chose people entitled to destry others people life, cower to divorse but brave to cheate.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Horizon said:


> The elephant got a little smaller,for a while, and then it got too big for the room. I was totally denied any intimacy. It dwindled from hardly anything (post hysterical bonding 16 months ago) to zero. Really it was just very obvious evidence that it was game over. I'm way on top of the affair demon now but it likes to take the odd swipe at me when I least expect it. I smack it down fast but it is there - it will always be there. From time to time I riff on the fact that we were on family holidays, doing all types of family stuff, and the whole time her body and mind belonged to someone else (despite the denials). I ignored the red flags; it was like I was clueless. We had fallen out of love and I had let myself go - it was nasty and then the player played his trump. I moved into another room and we pay the bills and raise our children and have little to do with each other. I'm out and about when I can and it's fun - you forget what you have been missing. Besides the denial of intimacy the ultimate kill shot was her consistent refusal to work on R. Even though she originally apologised she has morphed into this creature that thinks no intimacy and no discussion equals a relationship - wrong. I live my own life now and I love it. She still thinks we are in a relationship even though I have pulled the pin. That's her problem. I've got a life to enjoy.



and she may have her own life too, without you knowing...

~sammy


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I don't really understand the allergic reaction this forum as a whole seems to have with a betrayed spouse shouldering some of the blame.
> 
> I was a crap wife for a couple of years. My husband tried, as much as his personality allowed, to find out what was wrong and fix things. But then he gave up. He didn't, as it happens, cheat, but if he had I would have been at least a bit responsible. And if I hadn't got my head out of my arse for another few years, I think it would have been an understandable response to a difficult situation.


Some of the blame for the condition of the marriage, sure. Any part of the blame for them choosing to cheat? No way. 

You try to work on the marriage, fix what's wrong. If they won't participate or it can't be fixed you separate and divorce. THEN, and only then, you choose another partner and move on.

What you don't do is sneak around, lie and betray while telling them, literally, or by omission, that everything is just fine and dandy.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Lyris said:


> I don't really understand the allergic reaction this forum as a whole seems to have with a betrayed spouse shouldering some of the blame.
> 
> I was a crap wife for a couple of years. My husband tried, as much as his personality allowed, to find out what was wrong and fix things. But then he gave up. He didn't, as it happens, cheat, but if he had I would have been at least a bit responsible. And if I hadn't got my head out of my arse for another few years, I think it would have been an understandable response to a difficult situation.


sorry Lyris as much as you I adore you I have to say you're wrong here

there are a few "reasonable" responses to that but cheating isn't one of them
the anger and resentment are understandable and even the desire to cheat to some extent
but if he hit you that wouldn't be reasonable either


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

As you know, AR I am never wrong and if you say otherwise, you will have to leave my cult.

But yes, you're probably right. And I haven't been in the situation, so I shall gracefully withdraw.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

She does Sammy3 - drinking, drinking, drinking....


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