# What do you have the right to from your spouse?



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What do you have the right to know from/about your spouse?

This question came up in another thread, specifically what do you have the right to know, and I have been pondering it. I am not sure what the legal answer is. I am thinking that pretty much anything outside of legal boundaries would be according to the free will of your spouse. Or whatever you can negotiate. 

I think the desire to control and set boundaries for a spouse is pretty common. We all think we know best. But I am not sure we grow much from getting our way through controlling (or trying to control) a spouse. We probably just focus on learning to be better controllers, I guess. But I don't think we grow much as people.

The reality is that we have free will. I am thinking the only real power we have in marriage is the influence gained by earning our spouse's trust. If they trust us, they are more likely to open up to us, to be vulnerable. And it is that vulnerability that deepens our emotional connection, that sustains our marriage, that inspires the free will giving from one to another.


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## Deep Down (Jun 21, 2014)

Interesting question. What do I have the right to know from or about my spouse?

I'm a huge fan of reality and honesty. I get in trouble with my HSP H because he thinks I insult him, particularly when he's overwhelmed. Because at those times he's incredibly fragile. I'd like to know everything about his finances, about his health, his emotional health etc. But I'm learning to ask in ways that he feels more comfortable answering. It's a long learning curve for both of us. I've learned I can be obtuse, and too blunt, and I get frustrated a lot because he won't communicate with me. But over time we are getting better.

What do I have a right to know about? Eh I wish I knew more about my H when we married. I'd have still married him, but I'd have stood a better chance at understanding him then, instead we've gone through 7 years of really tough times.

I only learned about HSP (Highly Sensitive personality) a year ago, which explained so much. He didn't come with a label and washing instructions. Wouldn't you love that?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> What do you have the right to know from/about your spouse?
> 
> This question came up in another thread, specifically what do you have the right to know, and I have been pondering it. I am not sure what the legal answer is. I am thinking that pretty much anything outside of legal boundaries would be according to the free will of your spouse. Or whatever you can negotiate.
> 
> ...


I think that what we have the right to know from/about your spouse is not about control. It's about what do we need to know to be able to make decisions about our own lives.

For example. If my husband cheats and I don't know, his not telling me takes away many of my rights to exercise my own free will. 

His cheating exposes me potentially to STDs. I have the right to chose to not be exposed to STDs.

His cheating wastes our marital assets as he spends money on his AP. I have the right to know that our marital assets are being squandered on someone outside our marriage.

The same does for time our spouse gives to an affair partner.

I (any spouse) has the absolute right to make the decision about whether or not they want to stay in a marriage with someone who is cheating on them, lying, wasting assets, and exposing them to STDs.

The same goes for things like what our spouse does with finances.

I'm sure that if I sat here for a while I could come up with a long list. But basically, we have the right to know things that your spouse does that impact us negatively and even positively. Though negative impact is the most important.

It's not about control. The spouse can keep on cheating if that's what they want to do. But I'm packing my bags. That's my choice. There is no control is thing.

When a spouse lies and hides things that impacts you, they are controlling you via their lies. they are denying you your right to choose what you will put up with.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I think that this will be different for every relationship.

In my case I believe I have a right to be loved, for her to do what she reasonably can to make me happy - and of course she has the right to the same. One you have to discuss the details, I think there is already a problem .


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I once knew this married couple where the guy liked to party a lot with other guys. She built their house where he could have complete privacy for just the guys in his man cave. She bragged that when her husband was drinking with the guys and cutting up, that she was perfectly fine with it because he was always right there at home. 

She was like, "do I ever go in there? No way!, but I always know right where he is!"

I forget the name she had for his room, but it was hilarious. It sounded like an upscale club that he could boast that he owned, but in reality it was just a room in his house where his wife would respect his privacy. 

That story to me sounds like the right combination of trust and control if you ask me.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

J,
The question is not so much what do I have the right to know but rather why wouldn't my spouse want to share everything with the person they vowed to become one with. I have posted before that I am at a loss to understand privacy in a marriage.

I chose to marry my spouse and, for better or worse, to be there and invested in the union. Why would I need to keep secrets from the person I supposedly love beyond measure? To what end would this be? Secrets are for people who are not open and honest and for those who covertly try to gain the upper hand or engage in activity that they know would be problematic if exposed. Why would I do this or even need to do this? So, to answer your initial question, I would say everything, complete openness and honesty. Why would it not be thus?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Strange question.... makes me think. 

I THINK that the answer is nothing. Except the right to leave. 

It's what you both SHARE that makes the relationship work. And the lack of sharing that breaks it up. 

Right to financial transparency? Nice.... but both parties have to SHARE. If the transparency is not there, then you have the right to leave. Same with fidelity, honesty, privacy, etc.... 

I don't think we have the RIGHT to anything, but the union is supposed to be based on the willingness to share and trust. 

These are gifts....to and from our spouse. Not rights.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SunnyT said:


> Strange question.... makes me think.
> 
> *I THINK that the answer is nothing. Except the right to leave. *
> 
> ...


That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to, also.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

jld said:


> What do you have the right to know from/about your spouse?
> 
> This question came up in another thread, specifically what do you have the right to know, and I have been pondering it. I am not sure what the legal answer is. I am thinking that pretty much anything outside of legal boundaries would be according to the free will of your spouse. Or whatever you can negotiate.
> 
> ...


Other than legal, we don't have a right to much. I expect many things from my wife and I think she knows what those things are. She could disregard that and do anything though. Then it would be up to me to control my reaction to that.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

Reading your question, the first thing that came to mind for me was this -

I used to work with the public, and sometimes a customer would make a pass at me. I would turn them down quickly and firmly, and move on without giving it much thought. 
Early in the relationship, my husband would sometimes ask if this ever happened, and i would tell him the truth, because honesty is important in marriage. But he would get angry (not at me), get himself all worked up, dwell on it for days, and generally be miserable and mean about it.
After a while, i stopped telling him. I couldn't control that a guy hit on me, i didn't respond or do anything to encourage it, and husband knowing about it was hurting our relationship.

He felt he had a right to know if some random guy had asked me out while I counted his change. I disagreed, because it was causing problems. I'm sure posters would have a lot of different opinions on whether my decision was ok. But i think, in some occasions, a spouse can have a legit reason for withholding information. 


I think that what you have a right to know depends strongly on your spouse and the general health of your relationship.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

The right to honesty, safety and commincation. But this is for me I guess this would be defined from relationship to relationship


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

that.girl said:


> Early in the relationship, my husband would sometimes ask if this ever happened, and i would tell him the truth, because honesty is important in marriage. But he would get angry (not at me), get himself all worked up, dwell on it for days, and generally be miserable and mean about it. After a while, i stopped telling him. I couldn't control that a guy hit on me, i didn't respond or do anything to encourage it, and husband knowing about it was hurting our relationship.
> 
> He felt he had a right to know if some random guy had asked me out while I counted his change. I disagreed, because it was causing problems. I'm sure posters would have a lot of different opinions on whether my decision was ok. But i think, in some occasions, a spouse can have a legit reason for withholding information.
> 
> I think that what you have a right to know depends strongly on your spouse and the general health of your relationship.


For many women who have careers outside the home, the scenario of being asked out, married or not, happens from time to time. During the course of my career, having male colleagues asked for inappropriate attention has happened even though I'm not a flirt nor encourage attention. I have not told my husband about these events as I'm not attracted to other men nor I wish for their companionship. By telling my husband, he will just get upset. I saw how upset he got while we were in college when male classmates were extraordinarily attentive to me. He says that I'm very pretty, but don't know it. I believe that "pretty is what pretty does". I'm glad that he thinks that I'm pretty. Pretty is an asset, but I believe that being intelligent, honest, kind, and accomplished are far greater traits.

I do expect honesty and integrity from my husband. If he will ask me if I have been "hit on", I would tell him. He hasn't asked so I'll consider such events as trivial.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

that.girl said:


> Reading your question, the first thing that came to mind for me was this -
> 
> I used to work with the public, and sometimes a customer would make a pass at me. I would turn them down quickly and firmly, and move on without giving it much thought.
> Early in the relationship, my husband would sometimes ask if this ever happened, and i would tell him the truth, because honesty is important in marriage. But he would get angry (not at me), get himself all worked up, dwell on it for days, and generally be miserable and mean about it.
> ...


If he had been understanding and supportive, I doubt you would have stopped being transparent. His reactions to what you told him influenced your subsequent actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

jld said:


> If he had been understanding and supportive, I doubt you would have stopped being transparent. His reactions to what you told him influenced your subsequent actions.


Exactly. I think to me, what a person gets to know about me is more of a privilege than a right. If they want my innermost thoughts and my true self, they should earn it.

In an ideal world, marriage would grant you the right to know all things. But we are imperfect people in imperfect marriages. You have a right to know about shared finances and faithfulness in a marriage. But no one has an inherent right into my head. I'll share my thoughts only if I want to. 

And that includes my journal.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> If he had been understanding and supportive, I doubt you would have stopped being transparent. His reactions to what you told him influenced your subsequent actions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Our spouses (like ourselves) have shortcomings that we learn to accommodate. 

This sounds to me like a very good accommodation. No blood, no foul.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Our spouses (like ourselves) have shortcomings that we learn to accommodate.
> 
> This sounds to me like a very good accommodation. No blood, no foul.


But I think she would've preferred transparency.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> But I think she would've preferred transparency.


Probably. You can't always get everything you want in a marriage, can you? As "faults" go in a husband, being jealous of attention from other men towards you wife is hardly the worst if all you do is stew over it and get a little grumpy. 

Complete transparency comes with costs too.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

You're both right. My point is, i don't get the idea of having no right to privacy in marriage. I think you always have some right to privacy (that's what makes it a right), and marriage is about what you share with each other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Complete transparency comes with costs too.


Would you like to elaborate?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

that.girl said:


> You're both right. My point is, i don't get the idea of having no right to privacy in marriage. I think you always have some right to privacy (that's what makes it a right), and marriage is about what you share with each other.


I would agree. 

I'm certainly not going to go to the mall with my wife and in some perversion of the word "transparency" point out to her every single woman that I find physically attractive, just to concoct an example. Everything going on inside my head doesn't have to come out of my mouth. 

That means there's at least some portion of my inner life that I choose not to share with my spouse, because on the balance nothing that can move the relationship forward will ever come of it.


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## HisPresence (Dec 13, 2014)

I work in Retail Sales Clothing&Shoe, so I feel you 'that.girl'

I have customers who are older men that come to shop purposely just to talk to me. 
There was an older man, after I keep refused to give him my number. He gave me his Business Card (he do Real-Estate, according to his card) 
and before he leave, he keeps remind me many times to call the number on the business card of his, LOL!

Ofcourse you know I have to be nice to ALL customers, if I be rude to that old man, I will loose my job.
I have no choice but to smile, and take that old man business card. But right after he left, I throw his card in the trash, simple as that.

I told my boyfriend about this; just like my boyfriend told me when he at the Gym, he have girls hit on him, and ask for his # too.
What matter is I didn't give out my #, and my boyfriend also didn't gave out his #. We both know we're in a committed relationship, and we know our boundaries when it come to the the oppposite sex.

Regards to the thread tittle, we definately have the rights to know if our spouse cheat/cheated. 
I know someone who her husband cheats behind her back, and she got STD from him, and she got it for life. 
And I read around forums, there cases of married woman who cheated on her husband, and end up got pregnant by the man she cheated with.

In my friend case it just horrible, but it a risk we have to take in trusting our spouse not to cheat on us; 
and what worst is he didn't use any protection when he cheating around, and caught STD and bring it home to his wife.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

JLD the answer is simple: EVERYTHING!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

meson said:


> JLD the answer is simple: EVERYTHING!


Well, that makes it clear!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

jld said:


> Well, that makes it clear!


I'm absolutely serious. There should be no secrets in a marriage. We know most things as it is now but in the course of life there are things she and I don't know about each other. The critical point is that if we ask its open and should be answered. I don't know who she had lunch with yesterday or who the last person to text her was. But if I were to ask she would let me know. Likewise anything my wife inquires about I will answer fully and faithfully. 

This is also known as transparency.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

meson said:


> I'm absolutely serious. There should be no secrets in a marriage. We know most things as it is now but in the course of life there are things she and I don't know about each other. The critical point is that if we ask its open and should be answered. I don't know who she had lunch with yesterday or who the last person to text her was. But if I were to ask she would let me know. Likewise anything my wife inquires about I will answer fully and faithfully.
> 
> This is also known as transparency.


But do you have the _right_ to it? Or is transparency earned, through gaining trust?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

meson said:


> I'm absolutely serious. There should be no secrets in a marriage. We know most things as it is now but in the course of life there are things she and I don't know about each other. The critical point is that if we ask its open and should be answered. I don't know who she had lunch with yesterday or who the last person to text her was. But if I were to ask she would let me know. Likewise anything my wife inquires about I will answer fully and faithfully.
> 
> This is also known as transparency.


Allright, let's discuss this.

You're on the vacation of your dreams, sitting at an outdoor cafe in Italy with your wife. You're having a great time together, enjoying each others company, living La Dolce Vita. 

She asks "What are you thinking about"? At that very moment, you were considering the brunette three tables over in the red dress who, if you were a single man, you'd like to bend over the park bench and bang the bejeezus out of, if you'll permit me to end a phrase with a preposition (proposition?). 

Maybe you have a spouse who would find this hot. Chances are, you have a spouse who would be horribly hurt by that confession, especially given the circumstances, so you answer "I was thinking how lovely the sun looks filtering through the clouds as it sets over the Alps." Which, five minutes ago, was the truth. 

Let's say you have a spouse of the second variety. What exactly are you accomplishing by the excess of transparency?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You don't really have a transparent relationship with your wife, do you, Cletus? Do you want one? Have you ever discussed that with her?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I was going to say buckets of sex but this thread seems more on the cerebral side.

My wife and I don't sexually fantasize about real people but talk openly about who we find attractive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

jld said:


> But do you have the _right_ to it? Or is transparency earned, through gaining trust?


Yes we do. That right and trust was earned before we became married. Without it I wouldn't have married. Marriage is just the formal public witness to our plighting of troths.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

meson said:


> Yes we do. That right and trust was earned before we became married. Without it I wouldn't have married. Marriage is just the formal public witness to our plighting of troths.


Does it have to be maintained?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Does it have to be maintained?


I think so and expanded. Mrs. Conan and I are still delving into each other. Always exploring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I was going to say buckets of sex but this thread seems more on the cerebral side.
> 
> My wife and I don't sexually fantasize about real people but talk openly about who we find attractive.


If you were fantasizing about a celebrity that you somehow knew she would feel uncomfortable about, would you still tell her?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

that.girl said:


> If you were fantasizing about a celebrity that you somehow knew she would feel uncomfortable about, would you still tell her?


I tell her which celebrities I find attractive and she does too but we don't fantasize sexually about anyone but each other. Vague sexual fantasies, not about real individuals, are allowed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My husband has never tried to control my thinking in any way. And yet, I am transparent with him.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Allright, let's discuss this.
> 
> You're on the vacation of your dreams, sitting at an outdoor cafe in Italy with your wife. You're having a great time together, enjoying each others company, living La Dolce Vita.


Well just recently we were at an outdoor cafe in Brussels enjoying fine Belgian beers so this example is apropos. 



Cletus said:


> She asks "What are you thinking about"? At that very moment, you were considering the brunette three tables over in the red dress who, if you were a single man, you'd like to bend over the park bench and bang the bejeezus out of, if you'll permit me to end a phrase with a preposition (proposition?).


I'm not one to explicitly think about or imagine myself banging some woman. I do notice attractive women and sometimes command on then or men as the case may be. 

But to the point of your example; there are times when I dodge the question for the moment. In the case of the cafe scene I just mentioned on of her coworkers was was being overly controlling over what we should be doing and eating. If she had asked me that I would have dodged and given her a look and said something. From that she would know we could discuss it later. 

What actually happened:

Funny enough I did have my attention focused on some people in the Grand Platz and she did ask what I was looking at. It was a troop of European Boy Scouts. Then I pointed it out to her and the fact that they had the purple fleur de lis. We were going to talk to them after we finished and try to take pictures. 



Cletus said:


> Maybe you have a spouse who would find this hot. Chances are, you have a spouse who would be horribly hurt by that confession, especially given the circumstances, so you answer "I was thinking how lovely the sun looks filtering through the clouds as it sets over the Alps." Which, five minutes ago, was the truth.


My wife and I can discuss attractive people we see and it's not a problem. Despite the proclivity of some men to explicitly imagine several positions remembered from the Kama Sutra with the females they find attractive, I am not one of those. My thoughts and imaginings are not something I would need to hide from my wife. 



Cletus said:


> Let's say you have a spouse of the second variety. What exactly are you accomplishing by the excess of transparency?


I don't believe in the notion of radical transparency where every thought and expression should be instantly forked and piped into my spouses consciousness. If asked i will relate it unless social situation is such that it should be disclosed at another time.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

jld said:


> Does it have to be maintained?


As long as we are married, yes. It would be a sign the marriage is really over otherwise.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> You don't really have a transparent relationship with your wife, do you, Cletus? Do you want one? Have you ever discussed that with her?


If your definition of transparent requires me to wantonly disregard my wife's feelings in exchange for transparency, then no. But that also presupposes an awful lot about how you believe my spouse wishes to be treated.

We both score introverted on personality inventories, so neither of us is naturally geared towards over-sharing. I'm happy with our level of transparency. Serious answers to serious questions are forthcoming. 

Let's just say that I know the correct answer to "Does this dress make me look fat?" is probably not "yes". Of course, she knows not to ask questions for which she does not really want an answer.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I know you've posted in the sex and marriage section that you are not thrilled with that part of your conjugal life. But have you ever had a heart-to-heart with her, just been completely open and vulnerable with her about it?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

meson said:


> JLD the answer is simple: EVERYTHING!



Or nothing.

Are you after facts or ideology? Actions or thinking? 

In reality you don't know what you don't know so you really may not even be able to ask the right questions... 

You can only get answers to specific questions.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I know you've posted in the sex and marriage section that you are not thrilled with that part of your conjugal life. But have you ever had a heart-to-heart with her, just been completely open and vulnerable with her about it?



If the partner has demonstrated the intellectual capacity to understand it all and the emotional bandwidth to handle it I'm all for transparency. Haven't seen much of that in real life....


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

john117 said:


> Or nothing.
> 
> Are you after facts or ideology? Actions or thinking?
> 
> ...


It could be about anything. Everything is open upon request. 

Also it is expected that things you know your spouse would want to know you disclose unilaterally. We don't wait to be asked for it if it is something like who we are going out with, what did the doctor say. Etc. 

Many things should be disclosed without request especially if its been asked for in the past.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> My husband has never tried to control my thinking in any way. And yet, I am transparent with him.


My wife somehow controls my thinking. There is a powerful force that makes me look at her rear and think naughty thoughts.&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)




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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

meson said:


> JLD the answer is simple: EVERYTHING!


JLD was sneaky in her wording on this thread. You said "everything" and I said "nothing" yet I bet we expect the same things from our spouses. It's all in the way we interpret the phrase "right to from your spouse". Had that phrase been "expectation from your spouse" then my answer would have been the same as yours.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> JLD was sneaky in her wording on this thread. You said "everything" and I said "nothing" yet I bet we expect the same things from our spouses. It's all in the way we interpret the phrase "right to from your spouse". Had that phrase been "expectation from your spouse" then my answer would have been the same as yours.


Yup, I wasn't keying off the title but rather her first sentence: "What do you have the right to know from/about your spouse?"

Well now I understand what you meant as well as several others. As far as actions go she is her own person and mostly what is expected is respect and faithfulness. We have set some agreed rules for actions and responsibilities but I don't consider them a "right".


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

answering the thread title itself, truth and honesty.

nobody can demand love, or respect, or trust from their spouse. if i didn't have those, it would make me sad. the only things i demand from my wife are truth and honesty. if i didn't have those, it would make me mad.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

To an extent I find the thread funny; I would rather have the skills to know what I need to know from my spouse without pestering him/her at least for practical / factual stuff.

I'm not talking polygraph operator here, rather, I would rather know my partner well enough to know what's going on.

For non tangible stuff (feelings, emotions...) again I would rather read my partner than play 20 Questions. There may be cases where THEY don't know either.

Maybe I rely too much on empathy.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> My husband has never tried to control my thinking in any way. And yet, I am transparent with him.


Which one could argue is an effective means of passive control or manipulation.

He behaves in a manner which you find favorable, and in turn it impacts your behavior and response to him.

Attraction 101. Hell, we talk about this all of the time.

If in a transparent transaction you were to express your attraction to another man, your husband were to burst into tears, or strike you ... boom, there goes transparency.

Transparency, much like a bubble is ephemoral, unless an environment that maintains it remains in place.

I'm still not clear on how 'right' is being defined.

I smell a set up ... 

Back to wrapping kids gifts.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> What do you have the right to know from/about your spouse?
> 
> This question came up in another thread, specifically what do you have the right to know, and I have been pondering it. I am not sure what the legal answer is. I am thinking that pretty much anything outside of legal boundaries would be according to the free will of your spouse. Or whatever you can negotiate.
> 
> *I think the desire to control and set boundaries for a spouse is pretty common. We all think we know best. But I am not sure we grow much from getting our way through controlling (or trying to control) a spouse. We probably just focus on learning to be better controllers, I guess. But I don't think we grow much as people.*


 any time something is gained through "control" or demands... this sucks the very JOY from the act given... such acts only serve to take something away.... we learn to abide, put on a good face while our emotions are bound, wanting freedom...the heart grows further away under this. 




> The reality is that we have free will. I am thinking the only real power we have in marriage is the influence gained by earning our spouse's trust. If they trust us, they are more likely to open up to us, to be vulnerable. And it is that vulnerability that deepens our emotional connection, that sustains our marriage, that inspires the free will giving from one to another.


 I agree with the* "inspires "*part... when another allows us into their secret places...may we understand ~ this is an honor...not something to take lightly.. it's something to Build upon... hopefully we have earned it.. some move too fast here and end up feeling trampled ...



SunnyT said:


> Strange question.... makes me think.
> 
> I THINK that the answer is nothing. Except the right to leave.
> 
> ...


I like this.. if we have to discuss our "rights" in the relationship...something has been lost along the way...

From early on...I so wanted to share my everything with the right person.. and his feeling the freedom to share with me as well...one who cares to hear all my secret places......and be open to my learning of his...

Although it may not be my or his "RIGHT" to KNOW all these things we may have thought to ask or be privy to.....he's never made me feel this way...but has welcomed me with open arms...any / every question...and he's willingly given of himself -sharing his day... when the boss has angered him...or how he feels about this or that.. stories at work... 

Let me count the ways ... how much THIS MEANS to me ... 

What makes a relationship beautiful, and sustaining is when each *willingly* shares, gives of themselves without demand or obligation...simply because they so want to share the Laughter, to include each other -because it brings something back to ourselves even..it builds upon that feeling of "we are one"....

Even sharing the uncomfortable... the ugly.. as well as the good...it all depends of course....if there is no purpose & it will bring hurt...use wisdom here.. but anything that is remotely related to "betrayal" -something that weighs on our conscience.. we do have the right to know.. for what is best for our own lives... this is what RESPECT is all about. I need my husband to respect me enough to give me the truth..as I should him as well.....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Which one could argue is an effective means of passive control or manipulation.
> 
> He behaves in a manner which you find favorable, and in turn it impacts your behavior and response to him.
> 
> ...


To me, rights are legal, backed up by a recognized authority with the power to implement its will, regardless of agreement.

I am thinking we do not have rights in marriage outside our legal ones. We have hopes and expectations, but not rights. Unless, of course, that is mutually agreed to ahead of time.

You are right, that I am transparent with my husband because of the nature of his character, and the resulting way he treats me. If that were to change, I would not feel the trust that I need to be transparent with him.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'm still not clear on how 'right' is being defined.
> 
> I smell a set up ...
> 
> Back to wrapping kids gifts.


Well 'right' can be ambiguous and JLD is a smart cookie so she did that on purpose . Rather than ponder on the meaning of 'right', I agree with you that it's a clever play on words to have a nice thread. Maybe that can be seen as a set up.

And I feel for you wrapping gifts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Well 'right' can be ambiguous and JLD is a smart cookie so she did that on purpose . Rather than ponder on the meaning of 'right', I agree with you that it's a clever play on words to have a nice thread. Maybe that can be seen as a set up.
> 
> And I feel for you wrapping gifts.


I wanted to make the thread as open as possible, to generate the widest, most openminded and critical thinking possible. I find open-ended questions intellectually stimulating, and I really enjoy intellectual stimulation. 

I added a limiting sentence at the request of my friend Ele.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I agree that we have no rights.

We usually do however, have a boatload of hopes, and a backpack full of expectations.

If we were to have neither, then there isn't much point to a relationship.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's also a big depends relative to age and length of relationship. If I were to embark in a new liaison with some unfortunate middle age beauty, I would have far fewer concerns about her being transparent with me and vice versa compared to if I / we were 25 again.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

Looking at it from the "rights" perspective ;you can only evaluate actions .you can never judge legally for example based on emotions or intent.

if a spouse expects rights on emotional findings , he or she shall use a scale weighting on it all emotions in one basket;can we do this ?

Honesty majority of the time destructive ;like should you respond to spouse question about performance compared to a previous partner with honesty ?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hmmm

But I'm not threatened by M2 finding another man attractive. Never have been. 

M2 is - complicated - and difficult - and clever and funny. I just don't believe another man can fly the 'helicopter' that is M2 near as well as I do. 

So - what's to feel threatened by?

And hey - if M2 really truly prefers someone else, maybe she should be with them. And that's ok also. I don't want to be with someone who wants to be elsewhere....

Maybe I'm wired differently. I just don't find other men threatening. As for her occasional 'desire' for others, that seems normal to me. 

Every once in a while I feel desire for another woman. But I have no desire to give up the whole package with M2 just to have a short term Fvck fest with someone who is hot....

So when M2 tells me about her occasional 'crushes' I just laugh and banter with her. I've never once told her what to do/not do. More importantly I actually feel no desire to do so. She's an adult and needs to steer her own ship as she chooses.....





Deejo said:


> Which one could argue is an effective means of passive control or manipulation.
> 
> He behaves in a manner which you find favorable, and in turn it impacts your behavior and response to him.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would love to see a man that would cause my wife to go nuts over him. So far the competition was Anderson Cooper (lolz) and in real life the Captain of the Star Princess cruise ship a couple years ago, some random British dude I think).

But she's fairly easy to "steer" on practical matters at least so...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Hmmm
> 
> But I'm not threatened by M2 finding another man attractive. Never have been.
> 
> ...


The subconscious emotional security this attitude gives M2 is probably one of the driving reasons why you can pilot the helicopter.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Total transparency and honesty can be harmful to any relationship. My right to the privacy of my own thoughts trumps any perceived right to know what I'm thinking. *My* *actions *are what matter, and *sometimes *the actions of others towards me (if and when they do or may affect _us_), whether or not I respond to them. If you try to _inappropriately _invade my privacy, I have the right to deflect or even lie to protect it, and I am the ONLY judge of what is appropriate if I have not actually _acted _in a way that breaches our agreements and trust.

Trust in each other gives us the right to some privacy. Only when trust is breached materially does an expectation of more transparency arise, but it is not a right to have it - you only have the right to decide what to do about it if not given.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> I know you've posted in the sex and marriage section that you are not thrilled with that part of your conjugal life. But have you ever had a heart-to-heart with her, just been completely open and vulnerable with her about it?


Of course. You don't get 30 years in with a major disconnect in your marriage without some gut-wrenching come to Jesus tear inducing discussions.

It's only after you've had enough of these talks that you realize you have to eventually stop talking about them and put them away. That's when you either have to accept your reality for what it is or determine to change it - for sexual incompatibility, that means divorce. I have said very candidly that the we are still together because I allowed her sexual needs to take priority over mine. The only way I could reasonably do that was to understand that her reluctance in the bedroom is truly a part of her character. 

So yes, more honesty and transparency on this topic has passed between us than on just about any other because it's the only major schism in our marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 and I both believe we have the right to be: 

Treated with the respect, trust and transparency that each of us has earned by our actions toward each other for 25 years. 

That said when one of us is deviating from true North, the other is more likely to ask: Are you ok? 

As opposed to: WTF is wrong with you? 





farsidejunky said:


> The subconscious emotional security this attitude gives M2 is probably one of the driving reasons why you can pilot the helicopter.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I would agree.
> 
> I'm certainly not going to go to the mall with my wife and in some perversion of the word "transparency" point out to her every single woman that I find physically attractive, just to concoct an example. Everything going on inside my head doesn't have to come out of my mouth.
> 
> That means there's at least some portion of my inner life that I choose not to share with my spouse, because on the balance nothing that can move the relationship forward will ever come of it.



That is so well said I'm half tempted to print it out and give it my husband. He had very bad issues with talking about exes at the most inappropriate times in the most inappropriate ways. Which wouldn't have been so bad except that he never asked a word about my past, and in fact has made a couple of comments here and there that suggest he's a little jealous of me having a past and as such doesn't want to know. And I've shared almost none of it. So why the incessant inappropriate sharing that I did not ask for? I'm of the opinion that it was about leveling what he saw as an emotional power imbalance brought on by our age difference, but all it did was cause bad feelings and put a wedge between us. It's mostly been resolved but I so wish he'd thought of it in your terms, that is what's it going to do to move the relationship forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> M2 and I both believe we have the right to be:
> 
> Treated with the respect, trust and transparency that each of us has earned by our actions toward each other for 25 years.
> 
> ...



Ha ha, you just made me think of my father, who really did ask "wtf is wrong with you? ". Always a running joke with us kids but he also couldn't keep a relationship together, so maybe it doesn't work there. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> That said when one of us is deviating from true North, the other is more likely to ask: *Are you ok? *
> 
> As opposed to: WTF is wrong with you?


If I am not my bubbly self, if he senses discouragement ...just get too quiet, like I'm off in my own little world...He JUST KNOWS (or I am just so easy to read).... my H will always say just this >> *"Are you OK?*"... he sincerely cares....It's something I dearly appreciate about him... he opens the conversation ...

I think we all need this at times.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
That's the beautiful thing about SA2, he is really and truly - all about you. Always has been. Always will be. Total love. 

And he's a lucky man. Because when you had your epiphany - you reciprocated. 

Folks go on and on about how much they claim to WANT transparency. I don't believe them. What those folks mostly want is to hear what they WANT to hear. That's a whole different thing.

When M2 told me a few years ago: 
That she had a guilty conscience for 20 years because she gave $500 to her cousin after we had a very tense conversation and she agreed NOT to. I responded with: 

Is that the only time you gave money to relatives without me knowing? 

And she said yes. I shrugged and replied: So in all our time together you only did that sort of thing one time. That isn't 100 percent perfect but it's damn near. And then I smiled and hugged her. 

When M2 told me that sometimes she fantasizes about being with women I said: Babe, that's totally normal. And nobody could be more sympathetic to the idea of getting hot about the female body than me. 

And recently - after some awkward conversations about stuff inside M2's head I told her: 

There's absolutely nothing you could tell me - that's true - would make me love you any less than I do. 

And that wasn't a random comment. I fully accept and love M2 'as is'. 

So the folks complaining about a lack of transparency - most of them can't handle the truth near as well as they say. And after demonstrating that many times, their partners have learned not to share a whole lot....




SimplyAmorous said:


> If I am not my bubbly self, if he senses discouragement ...just get too quiet, like I'm off in my own little world...He JUST KNOWS (or I am just so easy to read).... my H will always say just this >> *"Are you OK?*"... he sincerely cares....It's something I dearly appreciate about him... he opens the conversation ...
> 
> I think we all need this at times.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Allright, let's discuss this.
> 
> You're on the vacation of your dreams, sitting at an outdoor cafe in Italy with your wife. You're having a great time together, enjoying each others company, living La Dolce Vita.
> 
> ...


Easy.....to me it would warn her that her husband has an adulterous heart and she should take precautions and asess the condition of her marriage. If my wife were that way we would not be together much longer. The thought should have stopped at "She is pretty" no more looking. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Easy.....to me it would warn her that her husband has an adulterous heart and she should take precautions and asess the condition of her marriage. If my wife were that way we would not be together much longer. The thought should have stopped at "She is pretty" no more looking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If Cletus were transparent with his wife, he might feel convicted and want to work on redirecting his thoughts. Or he may not.

Transparency is a tool, a starting point. We don't have to stay where we are at the moment. We can seek to improve.

When I have been really angry at Dug, I have screamed all kinds of things that I felt at the moment. But a few minutes later, after he has listened calmly and patiently, I have found myself apologizing and telling him I did not really mean those things I said. And he would say, reassuringly, "I know."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would have preferred less transparency and less screaming


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dug can handle it. . 

To him, all the benefits of transparency are worth putting up with the inconveniences.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> Easy.....to me it would warn her that her husband has an adulterous heart and she should take precautions and asess the condition of her marriage. If my wife were that way we would not be together much longer. The thought should have stopped at "She is pretty" no more looking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll be generous and assume that you don't know anything about my background and story in deciding if I am worthy of my marriage or not. I think on the balance that I am, mistakes notwithstanding. So does my wife, the only person whose opinion really matters.

It sounds to me like you might be the kind of spouse around whom complete transparency might prove to be a problem.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

I have two simple rules about transparency in relationships -

Don't volunteer information that will cause needless hurt. 

Don't ask a question unless you're prepared to hear an honest answer. 


They work for me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My own transparency rule in my marriage is to share it all, especially the worst things. Dug can handle it. 

He said once it actually makes it very easy to live with me, because he never has to guess what I'm feeling or thinking.

Also, I started this right at the beginning of our relationship, which helped him to see right away if he wanted to stay with me or not. Full disclosure.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> So when M2 tells me about her occasional 'crushes' I just laugh and banter with her. I've never once told her what to do/not do. More importantly I actually feel no desire to do so. She's an adult and needs to steer her own ship as she chooses.....


We're walking in the land here of theory craft, versus real world behavior.

I believe you MEM. Hell I didn't feel threatened by TOM even when he was in the midst of an affair with my ex.

Grand scheme of things, I navigated those waters extremely well ... and it still sucked. Big.

And you echo what I've been saying for years now; don't choose someone, who doesn't choose you.

Your last line reads as if we are all married to self aware, responsible adults.

One perusal of the site clearly dictates that a very large segment of the married population is adult in name only.

jld often says, "You get the marriage you earn."

A lot of truth there without a doubt.

Which prompts me to echo a very old piece of more wisdom.

"Caveat Emptor".

There is no lemon law with spouses. And the reality is there are plenty of bad lemons, and rotten apples out there. And you don't know it until you take a bite.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Which might be a pretty good argument for living together for a while before marriage. Though my mother is appalled by it.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> I would have preferred less transparency and less screaming


John, reading my wife you may be under the impression she is always screaming. She is not. It happens sometime, but it is more the exception than the rule. And when it happens, it is because I have not been the best listener. That is just a fact.

Just want to get the record straight.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Deejo said:


> jld often says, "You get the marriage you earn."


Actually my wife says "the man gets the marriage he earns".

I do not fully agree with it because I feel I have been a better man because of JLD. She has been direct and transparent and has not allowed me to hide behind a bunch of excuses.

She has pushed honesty.

She has earned the marriage as much as I have earned it. But not in a 50/50 manner like so often promoted on TAM. I pursued her, not the other way around. It is not before I fully committed, not in words but in actions, that she opened up.

Before I met her, I was an avid cyclist (huge time commitment - 250 km week ends), I flew gliders and planes (huge financial burden), had a Mustang GT (stick shift). I did not think even twice to give it all up to spend time with her and build the relationship.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Folks go on and on about how much they claim to WANT transparency. I don't believe them. What those folks mostly want is to hear what they WANT to hear. That's a whole different thing.


I cannot speak to other folks, but I DEFINITELY want transparency. If all you hear is happy bs, then root causes cannot be addressed.



> When M2 told me a few years ago:
> That she had a guilty conscience for 20 years because she gave $500 to her cousin after we had a very tense conversation and she agreed NOT to. I responded with:
> 
> Is that the only time you gave money to relatives without me knowing?
> ...


Awwww. What you just said. And the fact that you react the way you do is likely why she is safe with full transparency.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> jld often says, "You get the marriage you earn."
> 
> A lot of truth there without a doubt.


Yup. For both genders.



> There is no lemon law with spouses. And the reality is there are plenty of bad lemons, and rotten apples out there. And you don't know it until you take a bite.


Is that true? I know my parents did not like my DH when I married him. Did not like me much either. We were young and stupid. But they had a lot of hope for our growing up together. I think you can see a LITTLE bit into the character of people, and that is where we should be looking. Not twooo nub.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Which might be a pretty good argument for living together for a while before marriage. Though my mother is appalled by it.


I am not sure it is the only way, though I do think it is a good idea. I told my husband, I will know you by your actions not your words. Who are you? If s/he has cheated in the past, why are you going to be different? If they have been fiscally irresponsible in the past, why would that change? If they have acted selfishly in the past, what's different now?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Easy.....to me it would warn her that her husband has an adulterous heart and she should take precautions and asess the condition of her marriage. If my wife were that way we would not be together much longer. The thought should have stopped at "She is pretty" no more looking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's funny. We point out hotties to each other. Different strokes.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Dug can handle it. .
> 
> To him, all the benefits of transparency are worth putting up with the inconveniences.


So immature behavior is part of transparency? It seems to me that the message can be delivered in a more mature and productive manner than screaming. That does sound like "handling", that sounds like enabling. Different strokes.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

that.girl said:


> I have two simple rules about transparency in relationships -
> 
> Don't volunteer information that will cause needless hurt.
> 
> ...


I like these rules of thumb as well. Even though some people use them to rationalize hiding things from our partners that they shouldn't. Maybe that's the tricky part.


----------



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> I like these rules of thumb as well. Even though some people use them to rationalize hiding things from our partners that they shouldn't. Maybe that's the tricky part.


If a person really wants to rationalize doing something they shouldn't, they will find a way, no matter what the rules are. 

The "needless hurt" part is tricky, though. It's a judgement call, hopefully made while keeping your partner's feelings in mind.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deej,

So there were two distinct but related situations each of which was handled in a completely different manner. 

1. Other men were treated as 'non entities' unless they showed stalker behavior (only happened twice) at which point they got edited out of our picture. 

2. Any direct - confrontational - challenge to our sex life by M2 was quickly met with a low key suggestion that we open the marriage. 

And gosh - I never connected (1) and (2) consciously but the truth of it is that M2 doesn't have it in her to sleep with me on even days of the week and some other fellow on odd days. 

She would have to remove me from our bed to have any hope of making room for another fellow.....

But to remove me from our bed, had to accept the very definite reality I'd be in someone else's bed. And that idea seemed violently offensive to her. 





Deejo said:


> We're walking in the land here of theory craft, versus real world behavior.
> 
> I believe you MEM. Hell I didn't feel threatened by TOM even when he was in the midst of an affair with my ex.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NS,

The very first time I read one of JLD's posts describing this behavior, I had the exact same reaction. 

In fact many folks on here have reacted that way. 

The thing about a marriage is that the whole is often very different than the sum of its parts. Sometimes more, often much, much less. 

Because of that, I tend to assess a marriage on its overall happiness/stability. 

And in that sense JLD and Dug are One Percenters. 

Most of our core communication isn't in words. So what JLD is doing - she's simply being fully transparent in the moment. 






NobodySpecial said:


> So immature behavior is part of transparency? It seems to me that the message can be delivered in a more mature and productive manner than screaming. That does sound like "handling", that sounds like enabling. Different strokes.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> NS,
> 
> The very first time I read one of JLD's posts describing this behavior, I had the exact same reaction.
> 
> In fact many folks on here have reacted that way.


JLD advises and converses from her heart. I am a freaking robot. These 2 things will never converse easily. It is no fault of either. Dug recently reported that it is a rare thing for her to rage this way. But she once reported in a manner that made it sound like she used him like a punching bag on a regular basis. And seemed proud of it. Like look at me. I get to be a complete baby. And my husband babies me well. It sounds like I got that completely wrong.



> The thing about a marriage is that the whole is often very different than the sum of its parts. Sometimes more, often much, much less.


Well I have a personal reason to disagree with you there that has no practical merit whatsoever. I would agree that the sum is different than the parts. In a good marriage, greater than the sum. In a bad marriage, less than the sum. 




> Because of that, I tend to assess a marriage on its overall happiness/stability.
> 
> And in that sense JLD and Dug are One Percenters.
> 
> Most of our core communication isn't in words. So what JLD is doing - she's simply being fully transparent in the moment.


What is a one percenter? People who are actually genuinely happy in their marriages? I guess that makes me one as well! There are many different ways to do a thing. Know your partner is a good way to start.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> But to remove me from our bed, had to accept the very definite reality I'd be in someone else's bed. And that idea seemed violently offensive to her.



Not if she operates undercover 

Yesterday we had a 4-alarm (4 police cars) domestic disturbance in a neighbor's house. On Christmas Day. I told my wife that when our turn comes we would need to out-do our neighbors and go for 5 or the SWAT team or at least a fire engine or two... My girls were in tears laughing. She took it surprisingly in a good natured way and said I would never cheat on her... Well. Good luck with that.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> That's funny. We point out hotties to each other. Different strokes.


Pointing out good looking people is one thing. Would you be OK if wife told you about some dude or was fantasizing "Man! I sure would like to slide down his pole"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Pointing out goof looking people is one thing. Would you be OK if wife told you about some fude or was fantasizing "Man! I sure would like to slide down his pole"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yah. That's how I roll.


....

Edit ... wait I don't have a wife. I have a husband. If he said I would like to ride that, I would think ok. I mean I probably would too if I had a pole. So what?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amen to that key point: 

There are many different paths to a happy marriage. 

I DO agree that tantrum frequency matters. Not for Dug - but for JLD. 

Because I know that JLD is better than that. I know that she can mostly manage her intense emotions. 

So the balance for Dug is this. He wants total transparency and also wants JLD to model a mostly constructive conflict style for the children. 

Mostly it seems they have that balance. I don't believe JLD is in total meltdown mode on a weekly basis. 

That said, here is what is core:
1. If it's obvious to me from afar that they are 'in love' than its obvious to their children. 
2. It's even MORE obvious that JLDs meltdowns don't harm Dug. Obvious to everyone involved. 





NobodySpecial said:


> JLD advises and converses from her heart. I am a freaking robot. These 2 things will never converse easily. It is no fault of either. Dug recently reported that it is a rare thing for her to rage this way. But she once reported in a manner that made it sound like she used him like a punching bag on a regular basis. And seemed proud of it. Like look at me. I get to be a complete baby. And my husband babies me well. It sounds like I got that completely wrong.
> 
> 
> Well I have a personal reason to disagree with you there that has no practical merit whatsoever. I would agree that the sum is different than the parts. In a good marriage, greater than the sum. In a bad marriage, less than the sum.
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deep sigh. 

There's this thing that many otherwise intelligent TAMers do. I don't like it, but I'm certainly used to it. 

They act as if the two things below are similar:
1. Being a lying, deceitful, cake eating cheater
AND
2. Openly and unambiguously enforcing a boundary

My boundary, which I explained to M2 before we even got engaged was this: I'm monogamous by nature. That said, no one gets to demand my celibacy (or near celibacy). 

There is an increasingly common modern theme where monogamy is seen solely as a commitment. That doesn't fly in my world. Where I choose to live and love, monogamy is every bit as much a responsibility as a commitment. 

The beauty of all this is M2 doesn't have to worry about whether I'm knocking boots elsewhere. Because if it came down to it, I wouldn't hide it. 








john117 said:


> Not if she operates undercover
> 
> Yesterday we had a 4-alarm (4 police cars) domestic disturbance in a neighbor's house. On Christmas Day. I told my wife that when our turn comes we would need to out-do our neighbors and go for 5 or the SWAT team or at least a fire engine or two... My girls were in tears laughing. She took it surprisingly in a good natured way and said I would never cheat on her... Well. Good luck with that.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The two options you provided are not mutually exclusive.

A boundary can (and should) include "cheating". Whether out in the open or undercover, it's a boundary nonetheless .

If there's something I am not providing to my spouse in the marriage she's free to use her boundaries and get it from another source. Same for me.

Morality is relative.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

How does the word: 'cheating' apply to a situation that was clearly agreed to prior to getting married and later on followed through in a totally open fashion?






john117 said:


> The two options you provided are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> A boundary can (and should) include "cheating". Whether out in the open or undercover, it's a boundary nonetheless .
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> 
> 
> How does the word: 'cheating' apply to a situation that was clearly agreed to prior to getting married and later on followed through in a totally open fashion?



You assume the clarity of a legal framework or document. 

When we get married we AGREE to a lot of things that don't always pan out. Plus what we agreed upon 20 years ago is not interpreted the same way today, unlike a legal document.

As J2 would put it, marriage is a non deterministic process.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Obviously there can be a subjective aspect to invoking this type of change to the marriage. That happens when frequency is disappointing but not crushingly so. 

But - generally my invocation of this has only been triggered by the statement: I don't want to have sex with you anymore. 

In some cases that was a shlt test. In one case that was an attempt to get me to be the bad guy and end the marriage. 

Luckily we've never had a frequency issue that caused me to even think about doing this, much less suggest it. 

That does not mean I've always been happy with frequency. But at our worst, every five days, I knew that M2 was fully committed and wasn't angry at her, didn't feel rejected. 






john117 said:


> You assume the clarity of a legal framework or document.
> 
> When we get married we AGREE to a lot of things that don't always pan out. Plus what we agreed upon 20 years ago is not interpreted the same way today, unlike a legal document.
> 
> As J2 would put it, marriage is a non deterministic process.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I believe you have a right to expect whatever was promised to you, be it in vows or at other points in the relationship. Those rights would vary from marriage to marriage.

But rights are up for violation, like most things. Having a "right" isn't a guarantee unfortunately. 

I do find that clashes on TAM often arise when one poster believes the rights agreed upon in their marriage should apply universally.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Divinely Favored said:
> 
> 
> > Pointing out goof looking people is one thing. Would you be OK if wife told you about some fude or was fantasizing "Man! I sure would like to slide down his pole"
> ...


Pardon me Ma'am, you threw me when you were talking about bending over the brunette in the red dress.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Pardon me Ma'am, you threw me when you were talking about bending over the brunette in the red dress.


I roll both ways.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I cannot speak to other folks, but I DEFINITELY want transparency. If all you hear is happy bs, then root causes cannot be addressed.
> 
> i'll second that, although the example somebody gave about being in paris and seeing a redhead they wanted to bend over a park bench is certainly unnecessarily extreme. a while back when i suspected my wife of possibly being in an affair, i valued knowing the truth above all else, and she was certainly aware of that. right now i know a man who's wife had sex on several occasions with at least 2 different men, and he has no idea about it. the last thing in the world i want to be, is one of those guys. the more transparency there is, i would think the less likely that i ever would be one.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

jld said:


> What do you have the right to know from/about your spouse?


Everything.

Everything that has bearing on her life has bearing on mine.
the way we have our relationship arranged, our lives are one life.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Bruticus said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot speak to other folks, but I DEFINITELY want transparency. If all you hear is happy bs, then root causes cannot be addressed.
> ...


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Everything.
> 
> *Everything that has bearing on her life has bearing on mine.
> the way we have our relationship arranged, our lives are one life.*


Well put Tacoma!

A couple should act as a *couple* not as two individuals sharing living quarters. We should want to know what they do and are doing because they are part of us. We don't share an identical life but we orbit each other spinning and weaving our life together. I don't work where she works but I know many of them through her descriptions because I take an interest in what she does at work. Not because I'm controlling and suspect something but rather because I am interested in her and what she does. If I share what she does I can help her through stressful times more easily. 

It doesn't mean there is no privacy. It doesnt mean all of our hobbies overlap. It just means we will open up when asked because it is asked because it is deemed important by the one asking.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

All of these ideas.....

Are they rights? 

Or privledges....from the one who loves you intimately?


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## Vanille (Dec 13, 2014)

I think I have the right to know the truth about where my spouse is or who he is talking to. I don't think I have the right to look in his phone or computer.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Well, you can think that.... but he also has the right to NOT tell you where he is or who he is talking to. You don't HAVE to look in his phone or computer, you CHOOSE to. You DO have the right to leave if you don't like how he responds to you. 

I'm just saying that as adults we all have individual rights. There are no "couple's rights".... those are wants and expectations. Not rights. If you both love and honor and cherish each other, then you OFFER those things (like transparency, honesty, etc...) up out of love, trust, etc...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

True, at the end of the day the only rights you have in this world are the ones you can wrest from your environment at the end of your balled-up fist. 

Everything else is convention. You have no "right" even to life should someone more powerful than you decide to revoke it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

No rights, no expectations. No hope. 

Just a couple of vague promises and a leap off the the cliff.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Honesty and Respect.

If I have both of those, the details can be worked out later.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Bruticus said:
> 
> 
> > You should not let him continue to be one of those guys. Let him know what a skanky ***** he is married to.
> ...


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## foolscotton3 (Nov 13, 2014)

Transparency.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> What do you have the right to know from/about your spouse?
> 
> This question came up in another thread, specifically what do you have the right to know, and I have been pondering it. I am not sure what the legal answer is. I am thinking that pretty much anything outside of legal boundaries would be according to the free will of your spouse. Or whatever you can negotiate.
> 
> ...


Do we really have free will? Are you free to fly like a bird? 
You are free to act according to your own nature. Given that humans are liars and deceptive vying for their own "hidden" agendas by nature, I would think the best you could hope for is to try for good communication and a combined greater goal in marriage. The goal being happiness, help from each other in times of trouble, communication regarding ones feelings on certain subjects and hopefully good sex with bonding.
Short of that you really don't know what you are getting because you can never know 100% of the heart. I don't think you will ever get to 100%, maybe 70%. All the rest is hidden, past , agendas, hidden wants, desires and other garbage. Sometimes we even deceive ourselves so we can't even trust our own hearts.

Let me give you an example: 
Let's say someone is a big giver, philanthropist. He has given millions of $$ to hospitals, homeless organizations, etc. Now, did that person really give in order to help these people or was it for recognition from his piers and society in general. We can't really know. In fact, he may just want his name on the side of the hospital wing but has convinced himself that it's to help the underprivileged because wanting your name on the side of a building is just too vain for him to accept in his own heart.

Don't mean to get too deep on this, I'm just a strange person


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that what we have the right to know from/about your spouse is not about control. It's about what do we need to know to be able to make decisions about our own lives.
> 
> For example. If my husband cheats and I don't know, his not telling me takes away many of my rights to exercise my own free will.
> 
> ...


Substitute the Feminine for the Masculine, and im right there with you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

_“Perfect love casts out fear. Where there is love there are no demands, no expectations, no dependency. I do not demand that you make me happy; my happiness does not lie in you. If you were to leave me, I will not feel sorry for myself; I enjoy your company immensely, but I do not cling.” _

From Awareness, Anthony De Mello


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

My thoughts:
1. Right to agreed boundaries
2. Exclusivity
3. Open discussion if one spouse is not meeting the needs of the other prior to 'consequences'.
4. Transparency
5. Honesty
6. Right to earn and maintain respect both ways


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