# Accused of "embezzlement" by husband



## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

My husband doesn't trust me, apparently never has, he suspects me of embezzling money. 

He makes most of the money, but he's got horrible money management skills. I, on the other hand, am a savings & budgeting Goddess. Early on in our relationship, we opened a joint account and his paycheques go in there. The mortgage and bills all come out of that account, and whatever's left gets split into household budget envelopes that are spent on both of us, and savings.

In order to keep money with different purposes separate, I maintain a number of chequing and savings accounts. One account is our household budgets, another is for "unexpected" expenditures, and then there's a big account for savings. He gets his own spending money every two weeks out of his paycheque. But being horrible with money, he usually spends all of it within the first couple days. So then he comes and asks me for money for massages or energy drinks for work or other random stuff. Unless it's a tight month, I unquestionably say yes. That requires me to make a transfer from the "unexpected" account into his account.

Then he turns around an accuses me of playing shell games with the accounts by making all these transfers and asking me to justify them. They're transfers for money HE SPENT!!

I can't understand why he would allow me to manage the money when he apparently doesn't trust me. The "shell game" he talks about is 90% me transferring money TO HIM whenever he wants to buy something and he's already spent all his budget. To be so accommodating and then have those transactions be turned into accusations is very hurtful.

I try to involve him with the finances, I show him the accounts and my budgets whenever he asks, but he has no interest, finds it mind-numbing. I simplified my transfers so they're not going every which way, which makes it harder for me but I did that so it would be more transparent for him. So despite the fact that I've put away $16,000 since April, he questions whether or not I'm secretly stashing money somewhere else. All he sees is the income going into the first account, and just doesn't understand how expensive it is to run a household, or how much money he himself spends.

He confronted me about it long ago, and my response was that if I was going to do that, I would get cash-back when I buy groceries. That only made him more suspicious! He figures that telling him that's how I *would* do it is just a red flag that I actually *am* doing it. It's a catch-22!

He does come from an emotionally abusive home with a very manipulative mother, so he's pre-conditioned to be suspicious. I can't think of anything I've done that would make me untrustworthy, other than make the accounts so complicated that he couldn't keep track. But it's the way I need to do it so that *I* can keep track. Our MC advised that if he's uncomfortable with my budgeting, then he should take a more active role. But he doesn't want to! So instead he leaves it to me, and then makes false accusations about the way I'm doing it. I'm fed up! What to do? It's not worth leaving him over, but I don't know how much longer I can take this.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

It sounds like you work and dont have kids and have been to an MC who cant help.

I can understand your husband not trusting you since he doesnt understand what you are doing.

The only way out I can see for you is to use a third person whom your husband trusts to manage the money. 

If this carries on much longer your marriage and life wont be worth living for. It has to be sorted out.


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## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

To me, not understanding and not trusting are very different issues.

I don't understand what he does when he builds a shed. That doesn't mean I don't believe him when he says he knows what he's doing and that he's doing it properly. I have trust and if he says he knows what he's doing, then I believe he knows what he's doing.

The problem is the lack of trust, which has nothing to do with money. For example, a third party can't do our grocery shopping. If he believes I'm taking out cash when I buy groceries and hiding it away somewhere, a third party wouldn't be able to prevent that. If he's got some deep-seated trust issue, he'll just transfer it from budgeting to cheating or some such.

Besides, he hates having to wait when he's spent all his money and he wants more. A third party would mean he'd have to wait not just for tomorrow morning, but for the next business day. That wouldn't fly.

Also, I'm not going to pay someone to do something that I'm very good at. *I* wouldn't trust some random stranger with my money. So now the problem just gets shifted to someone else, plus our money could actually go missing. Right now that problem doesn't exist.


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## death and taxes (Jul 6, 2012)

Why do you have more than one account? Couldn't this all be accomplished with just the single account? I know it's only part of the issues going on, but seeing all the accounts can be a bit confusing and overwhelming.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Thanks for your reply.

Its not exactly the same as building a shed since there you see a finished product what you understand to be a shed.

Groceries in my area if bought at a supermarket do have an itemized bill.

You cant force a person to have trust. So your only hope if you cant use a third person is to teach him.


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## nevergveup (Feb 18, 2013)

Well as your so good at maintaining a budget,beat him
with proof of where all the money is accounted for.

Record every expense and when you transfer money
to him.Show him every cost broken down and where it goes.

Figures don't lie and tell him not to blame you that your
better at balancing and budgeting money.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

he needs to man up and be accountable for his own finances.

I would turn over the bills to him and let him strugle and fail if need be but eventually he will get it and then you won't have to worry about it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What you need is to learn a boundary/consequence for when he says this crap to you.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Show him the books and tell him to stop the toxic dialog, it's not constructive.

If he can't understand it, send him on a bookkeeping course.

If there is a way you can simplify the accounting so he can understand what's going where, then do that.

You may want to consider asking him to sign each transaction in your ledger so there's no debate. And keep a lot of details for each transaction so there's no question he withdraws cash and what they do with it.

Parent - child dynamics do not work well in a marriage. He needs to get plugged into the finances or you are headed for some serious troubles.

He can't just leave you to manage finances while you give him an allowance like a child. That will not work, you will both end up resenting each other.

Give him regular reports, keep him involved. If he does not get involved, send him on a bookeeping course. Don't put up with insults like this.


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## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

Hell no I wouldn't turn over the bills to him - they'd be broke and all the savings gone in no time, the way he spends.

Get together a list of October and November incoming money and then show all the outgoing monies.
Show him in black and white how much it actually costs to pay the mortgage, utilities, insurance (life, health, auto, homeowners etc), groceries and whatever other recurring monthly bills you have.

Show him for both months how much superfluous money he has spent and then he can see why he runs out of cash quickly.
Don't point blame on what he is spending, just show him.

As for the savings - don't bother showing him that at this point. Because he will just think that's money to be spent now as it seems like if he has money in his pocket it's burning a hole.

Hope that helps...and good luck.
You aren't doing anything wrong. He just thinks there is a money tree growing out back.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Yes, show him in black and white how the money is moving around.

I suspect this guy is not that adept at accounting, which can make all of this rather intimidating. That may be why he's talking about shell games.. he's just ignorant about how accounting works.

Educate him.

He will need to take ownership of his mismanagement of the finances though on his end. If he won't eve acknowledge that he's doing anything destructive you have to address that.

Watch this episode of dr phil where he talks to a wife that is financially reckless : 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKbN1f-f_AE

your husband probably isn't far off from that. Your husband needs to mature into recognizing that what you are doing is helping the situation and what he is doing is contaminating the situation.

Maybe show him the video.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> he needs to man up and be accountable for his own finances.
> 
> I would turn over the bills to him and let him strugle and fail if need be but eventually he will get it and then you won't have to worry about it.


Dropping financial responsibilities into the lap of someone who is a fiscal imbecile is not a solution.

He needs to go to school to learn how to do proper bookkeeping.

Send him to school and start there.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

If he is constantly running over his allowance, then why not:

1) Increase his "allowance" to something more reasonable that you BOTH AGREE on (you're giving it to him ANYWAY so why not just adjust his allowance to the average he spends anyway)

2) Tell him that when the "allowance" goes up, there will be NO MORE money (not one dime) until his next allowance 'due date' since you both had already agreed on the amount ahead of time. If he gets pissy, tell him to start WRITING DOWN in a pocket-sized notebook EVERYTHING he spends his money on. He'll eventually figure out where it all goes.

I've got NO advice on the fact that he doesn't trust you.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

let him run the finances for a while.

personally, i would have an easier time dealing with mismanaged money than i would dealing with a spouse that does not trust me and accuses me of wrongdoing, but then refuses to step up and take responsibility.

you have to remember, even if your husband gets all anxious when he looks into finances, and even if he really thinks your being unfair, you havent done anything wrong, and you have the right to be treated with respect.

your husband is completely incapable of reading your mind, and you are incapable of reading his. keep that in mind when one of you gets upset and starts accusing the other.
thats why i call bull**** with my wife when i see it, and why i have worked so hard over the years to get her to do the same. 

i would have absolutely no patience for what your going through. 
if he doesnt want to trust you, then he needs to do it himself. 

you can either tolerate the abuse or you can fix the financial woes that pop up after he takes control of the money.

i think you would have an easier time with the latter. thats your thing. getting crapped on isnt. 

who knows, maybe he wouldnt be too bad but would learn how stressful it is, and actually be willing to come up with a plan. 

right now he is just whining.


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## srena200 (Jul 13, 2009)

death and taxes said:


> Why do you have more than one account? Couldn't this all be accomplished with just the single account? I know it's only part of the issues going on, but seeing all the accounts can be a bit confusing and overwhelming.


Clearly not if her husband is draining the money for crap like energy drinks and massages. She is doing the right thing by protecting their assets from his impulsive and immature abilities to manage their money.


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## srena200 (Jul 13, 2009)

As'laDain said:


> let him run the finances for a while.personally, i would have an easier time dealing with mismanaged money than i would dealing with a spouse that does not trust me and accuses me of wrongdoing, but then refuses to step up and take responsibility.
> 
> Absolutely not. If he cannot manage money now - what is letting him manage the finances going to prove but a drained account on crap like massages and energy drinks? If he can prove some wrong doing - that is one thing but letting a financial irresponsible person handle the money, do the taxes, and pay the bills is committing financial suicide and destiny to be living paycheck to paycheck.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

srena200 said:


> As'laDain said:
> 
> 
> > let him run the finances for a while.personally, i would have an easier time dealing with mismanaged money than i would dealing with a spouse that does not trust me and accuses me of wrongdoing, but then refuses to step up and take responsibility.
> ...


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## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

He already knows he's terrible with money, and how hard it is to keep a budget. That's why he turned it over to me in the first place. When he says "I have $300 left" what he really means is "I'm only $200 overdrawn on my $500 overdraft protection."

I like the idea of increasing the allowance and then saying "that's all you get."

I've taken the advice of clarifying the transfers. When I looked over the books, I noticed that virtually ever transfer was TO HIM. So for at least a month, whenever I transferred money to him, I said like three times each "Ok, so you know, this is going to show up as two transfers. It would only be one, but you want the money today, so I have to transfer from my chequing account today, and then a next-day transfer from savings into my chequing account to replace it. I just want you to be aware that this means there will be transfers in from the chequing and savings accounts, and that I'm not hiding the money somewhere, I'm transferring it to you." He started to get the point, and eventually he would sorta chuckle about it, because he was finally starting to see reality. The last time I did the spiel, I made a point of telling him it was the last time I would give it, and that I believed he had a good understanding of where the transfers were coming from / going to, and that I expected no more gruff about bank transfers, period.

We also discussed the embezzlement idea, and it seems that the big trigger for him was my comment that if I was going to embezzle money, I would get cash-back. He grew up in a very manipulative home, and that's exactly the kind of bait'n'switch his mother and sister would pull: lull you into ease by telling you what they "would" do if they were "like that" but don't worry because "we're not like that"... and then go do it anyways. I guess I can understand that. I don't have to like it, but his childhood isn't something he can just change, and the lessons you learn young have a tendency to stick with you.

But in turn, I told him that I feel hurt when I'm wrongly accused of doing something untrustworthy, and that even if I understand where his trust issues come from, that doesn't justify accusing me of things I don't do; that his trust issues are his own to deal with, and that I can be supportive as he works on them, but that it's not kind to project them onto me. So that part is a work in progress, but it's gotten much better already.


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## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> srena200 said:
> 
> 
> > it is not committing financial suicide...
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sabariel said:


> As'laDain said:
> 
> 
> > But what would that even solve?
> ...


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## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

nevergveup said:


> Well as your so good at maintaining a budget,beat him
> with proof of where all the money is accounted for.
> 
> Record every expense and when you transfer money
> ...


That's the first thing I tried. I figured I would just prove my way out of this mess. He lasted about 3 minutes, then his eyes glazed over and he completely shut down.

That's the other reason the whole "let him take over" suggestion wouldn't work. When I say he has no interest in it, I mean like, None. Zip, zero, nada. Before he met me, his budget was: "Use the bank card until it stops working, then ask Mom for a loan. Pay back the loan when you get paid. Repeat." He lived out of his car, so he didn't have "bills." He needed financing to buy his laptop, for pete's sake. We paid it off early, and it still cost him $2,500 for a $900 laptop.

So no. Not going there. Just not gonna happen.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sabariel said:


> That's the first thing I tried. I figured I would just prove my way out of this mess. He lasted about 3 minutes, then his eyes glazed over and he completely shut down.
> 
> That's the other reason the whole "let him take over" suggestion wouldn't work. When I say he has no interest in it, I mean like, None. Zip, zero, nada. Before he met me, his budget was: "Use the bank card until it stops working, then ask Mom for a loan. Pay back the loan when you get paid. Repeat." He lived out of his car, so he didn't have "bills." He needed financing to buy his laptop, for pete's sake. We paid it off early, and it still cost him $2,500 for a $900 laptop.
> 
> So no. Not going there. Just not gonna happen.


give him an allowance? if he wants to act like a 12 year old, treat him like one. 
if he starts accusing you of embezzlement, tell him to go f#@k himself. well, maybe not in those words...

either way, its pretty petty that he complains about the way you handle the money but has no interest in even trying to back up his claims.

i lose my **** whenever my soldiers complain about crap but have no desire to make the situation better. 
i guess that bleeds over to my marriage...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What it's going to take is you NOT BAILING HIM OUT. And for heaven's sake, NEVER take money out of savings just because he messed up. Let him suffer the consequence of having to tell someone he can't pay, or he wrote a bad check. The longer you bail him out, the longer he'll do it.


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## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

I'd like to elaborate some points.

The definition of "allowance" is "a sum of money allotted or granted for a particular purpose, as for expenses." There are 3 other definitions there, none of them refer specifically to the money parents give their 12 year olds.

Regarding him learning "that" he doesn't manage money well, he's always known that. Specifically, he knows that he can't be bothered and isn't interested in budgeting. It's not that he "can't" because there have been points in our marriage that he's maintained a budget for himself and done very well, even putting money into his own rainy day account. Then he gets busy or disinterested or I'm not sure what, and it all goes to dust.

As'laDain, I agree that it may be "petty" to accuse me of embezzlement. However, approaching the topic with that kind of attitude is generally counter-productive to actually encouraging change, and building a stronger connection.

Today, we made a really big breakthrough. I expressed how it doesn't meet my need for financial security and stability to have money coming out of savings all the time, without predictability. I empathized with his need for play and to have fun, and with the reality that if he wants to have fun and we can afford it, then what's wrong with that? I also was able to explain more of the reasons why I thought it was a good idea to have a decent amount of money in savings, other than "because I want to." These included house emergencies (furnace, appliances quitting, etc), disability / loss of job emergencies, paying down the house faster to avoid interest, etc. He was able to understand that having money in savings isn't a waste of money. Yeah, that's pretty much how he saw it, and as much as I can't even begin to understand that intellectually, I tried hard to empathize with it emotionally.

In conclusion, we agreed that he would take a fixed percentage of whatever money is left each payday after the bills and household expenses are paid, and that he would have to stay within that amount come hell or high water. We agreed on an amount that works for both of us.

So I'm hoping that will clear up that issue. Part of the reason this didn't work before was that his allowance was too small to leave room for massages or big nights out. I'd previously discussed making it bigger, but he had always wanted to keep it smaller because he knew he would just blow it on random crap. The problem with that was always that it was too small to actually do anything, and then he always wanted to "fun stuff" to come out of savings. I was finally able to communicate that this just doesn't work for me, I need to know how much of a given paycheque will go for those things, and now we have that.

Because I'm a pedant, I wrote it all down and we're both going to sign it (he's out of town or we would have already). Then it's clear for both of us what the agreement is, and I can pull it out if he ever gives me a hard time about it.

I also agreed to "manage" that money for him, i.e. rather than giving it to him lump sum each cheque, he'll still ask for it the same way he has been all along, except now it's a specific, limited amount and not just some never-ending series of expenses.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sabariel said:


> I'd like to elaborate some points.
> 
> The definition of "allowance" is "a sum of money allotted or granted for a particular purpose, as for expenses." There are 3 other definitions there, none of them refer specifically to the money parents give their 12 year olds.
> 
> ...



sounds like you are on your way to coming to a solution. to be honest, i dont think there is any one way that is better than the other when it comes to solving something. as long as it gets solved, in a way you both can live with, what difference does it make? everybody is different, you know your husband better than any of us.

good on you. 
:smthumbup:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sabariel said:


> In conclusion, we agreed that he would take a fixed percentage of whatever money is left each payday after the bills and household expenses are paid, and that he would have to stay within that amount come hell or high water. We agreed on an amount that works for both of us.


Just verifying: You mean after bills, household expenses, AND THE AUTOMATIC DEPOSIT INTO SAVINGS, right?


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I agree don't hand it over. He is most likely intimidated and insecure with the fact you know more about what goes on than he does. 

Do you use an accounting software? I was thinking a quick view in a program like Quicken can allow him to see succinctly that 43% goes to running the household (if he wants to see it broken down to utilities, groceries, house payment , etc. you can) and 22% to savings, 10% to car payments, etc.

Or you could show him one last time, tell him you do not appreciate his questioning your honesty, it's an insult to your integrity, that you've done all you can to make the accounting transparent to him and going forward you will not respond to any negative/derogatory comments about your trustworthiness but if he asks politely, you are happy to explain any of it to him as he has shown no effort to understand.


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## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

turnera said:


> Just verifying: You mean after bills, household expenses, AND THE AUTOMATIC DEPOSIT INTO SAVINGS, right?


The deposit into savings is already the other 90% of what's left after bills and expenses... DH probably wouldn't be happy if I nipped more off the top for savings, before his cut, just on principle. Anyway, supposing the automatic deposit was $200, that would only increase the savings amount by $20 (since Savings is already getting 90% of that $200 anyway). An extra $20 won't make that much difference in the savings balance, but hubby would see it as a "token" -- that the amount doesn't matter, it's the principle of the thing.

Because of the way his employer does the accounting, we spend the first half of the year paying high EI and CPP premiums, which take a big chunk out of those cheques. For the second half of the year, he's already paid the maximum contributions, so those deductions go down to zero. Therefore, I look at the savings plan over a full year, rather than month-to-month.


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## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Do you use an accounting software? I was thinking a quick view in a program like Quicken can allow him to see succinctly that 43% goes to running the household (if he wants to see it broken down to utilities, groceries, house payment , etc. you can) and 22% to savings, 10% to car payments, etc.


I use a combination of Google Drive spreadsheets and the GoodBudget app/website. I've never found accounting software that had the flexibility I needed. Also, both of those are available on my mobile, which is more convenient when I'm not at home. The spreadsheet can show him the monthly bills, and the goodbudget app shows our other spending (fuel, groceries, household, etc) in a nice variety of summaries.

That's a good idea to break it down into percentages like that, though. It wouldn't be overly difficult to do by hand. Math and I are pretty tight friends.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

It sounds to me like he's basically venting. He sounds frustrated that he's not more on top of tracking things, and because of it he doesn't understand what's being done... just sees a bunch of transfers that don't make obvious sense to him. 

I hope your new plan works for you. One thing you might consider adding in to your new plan if this continues to be a problem: Have HIM write down each transfer you make and what it was for on the day that you do it. Then if he questions you and you pull up your statements, they're all accounted for in his own writing. If he doesn't understand or remember them, at least you can say, "Well, you understood it when we did it!"


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