# Wife can't wrap mind around sex



## blankstare (Sep 19, 2011)

My wife and I have been together for five years and married for three. We are in out mid-twenties and don't have any kids. Lately, she has been avoiding sex like the plague for some reason. Before our marriage and during the first year, sex happened several times a week. Now, its maybe once every two if I really push for it.

Tonight, I finally tell her we need to have a talk about it and discuss what's going on. She tells me there are times when she just has an urge to have sex with me, but by the time we get to the bed portion, she thinks about all the work it takes to get to the end of sex, point A to point B, and loses motivation. I have intentionally tried to mix things up so that nothing is ever the same old sex. Then she tells me that nothing is wrong with me, but that she just looses her motivation somewhere in the middle of it all. 

Any ideas? We are both in good shape, so its nothing about physical attractions, well at least that's what she's saying.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Don't deposit your next paycheck. When she asks where the money is, tell her you thought about going to work but then you started thinking about how long you'd have to work to actually get a check and you just lost motivation.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Your wife does not understand men & their needs -cause she is not "feeling" it like you are, she needs educated and an understanding of how men feel loved through "making love".

Typical divide in early marraige unfortunately for many. She needs to take the time to read a book like this Amazon.com: The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands (9780060520618): Laura Schlessinger: Books

This would be a great one too : Amazon.com: The Return of Desire: A Guide to Rediscovering Your Sexual Passion (9781590303641): Gina Ogden: Books


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Don't deposit your next paycheck. When she asks where the money is, tell her you thought about going to work but then you started thinking about how long you'd have to work to actually get a check and you just lost motivation.



:rofl: I love this! 

Maybe the wife lost motivation, because now she has the ring!


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

unbelievable said:


> Don't deposit your next paycheck. When she asks where the money is, tell her you thought about going to work but then you started thinking about how long you'd have to work to actually get a check and you just lost motivation.


i am absolutely waiting for the perfect time to use this tact, i cannot wait.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

You indicate that things have changed recently for her. What is currently happening in her life? Are there new stressors that have been added? New job? Problem with current job? Changes in birth control?

Is she on any kind of hormonal birth control, or medications such as anti-depressants?

What do you do to get each other in the mood? Do you flirt with each other during the day - touch, kiss, etc.?

For a lot of women, they need to be aroused first before they feel a strong desire for sex. Desire In Women: Does It Lead To Sex? Or Result From It? | Psychology Today

Most of the previous responses are from people who have higher drives.  Let me give you the perspective of one who has a lower drive so maybe you can have some compassion for what that position feels like. It is not just the responsibility of the lower drive to learn about their spouse and partner and how much it means to them, it is also the responsibility of the higher drive to understand and be compassionate with their lower drive partner in order to help them. When you don't have a natural physical desire, it takes a great deal of mental effort to get yourself "there". It does not just come naturally all of the time.

I would recommend this book: Amazon.com: The Return of Desire: A Guide to Rediscovering Your Sexual Passion (9781590303641): Gina Ogden: Books

So, firstly, look at what has changed recently, and second, it would behoove your wife if she could start to practice some relaxation techniques and try emptying her mind of all of the problems and simply try and concentrate on you and the feel of it. I have to mentally empty my mind of the clutter and I tend to focus on the touch. I have to close my eyes and my husband will start to touch me and I concentrate on that and then tend to lose myself to the act. Lastly, do not give up. Do not settle. Forge the path that you want your sexual life to be and help your wife to navigate it.

Best wishes.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Don't deposit your next paycheck. When she asks where the money is, tell her you thought about going to work but then you started thinking about how long you'd have to work to actually get a check and you just lost motivation.


And what if she has her own paycheck? 

And why would you equate a spouse making love to you or not with bringing home a paycheck? I thought we had this little talk before about how an intimate act like sex cannot be equated to anything else because it does not compare to anything else.

You and okey are just seeking vengeance because you have a lot of resentment toward your wives. I would suggest that you work on LETTING IT GO so that your life does not get engulfed in bitterness. Both you and okey are *too good of men *for that.

“_Bitterness imprisons life; love releases it. Bitterness paralyzes life; love empowers it. Bitterness sours life; love sweetens it. Bitterness sickens life; love heals it. Bitterness blinds life; love anoints its eyes_.” ~ Harry Emerson Fos****


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Enchantment said:


> And what if she has her own paycheck?
> 
> And why would you equate a spouse making love to you or not with bringing home a paycheck? I thought we had this little talk before about how an intimate act like sex cannot be equated to anything else because it does not compare to anything else.
> 
> ...


not seeking vengence, seeking initimacy from a complacent partner.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

blankstare said:


> Tonight, I finally tell her we need to have a talk about it and discuss what's going on. She tells me there are times when she just has an urge to have sex with me, but by the time we get to the bed portion, she thinks about all the work it takes to get to the end of sex, point A to point B, and loses motivation. I have intentionally tried to mix things up so that nothing is ever the same old sex. Then she tells me that nothing is wrong with me, but that she just looses her motivation somewhere in the middle of it all.


My main advice is if you are young and have no children is to tell your wife that for you, the marriage needs to be sexual, physical and passionate. That sex is very extremely important to you. That you love her and she is not a sex object. And ask her if a sexual, romantic, physical and loving marriage is the one she wants, or does she want to move on to a separation. The point of saying this is not to get separated, but to make sure your wife understands that her marriage is on the line and that she has to work within herself to get over it.

If it does start working, you then make sure this theme or structure is never lost. This takes effort on your part and it takes effort on your wife's part. People can blame her or say your wife needs to do A,B, or C, but what you should really know is that in an "unmanaged" state, your sex life will default to what you have now. So, you need to manage your marriage in such a way as to upend the default state. This takes actions on your part and actions on her part. You will be more successful in life if you recognize that it is easier to change yourself then another person.

Once you have children, it is way harder for a wife to wrap her mind around sex, and then due to your attachment to your children and the finances, it is way harder for you to confront your wife over it.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Enchantment said:


> Phew! Good - I got a little worried based upon that comment you made in a post last week about being vindictive. See - I knew you were a good dude! Keep SHOWING her that - maybe someday the wool will be pulled from her eyes.


the post you are referring to about the small penis comment that guy's wife made in front of her friend? that incident was definately one that would trigger my vindictive defenses because it was way way over the top and cant be taken back.

i am not vengeful about everyday stuff. i am not out to get my wife because we aren't on the same intimacy schedule.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Read Athol Kay at Married Man Sex Life.
I hear his book is good.

You need to put the marriage on the line, no two ways about it. this will only get worse if left unattended. And you sure don't want kids under these circumstances.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> And what if she has her own paycheck?
> 
> And why would you equate a spouse making love to you or not with bringing home a paycheck? I thought we had this little talk before about how an intimate act like sex cannot be equated to anything else because it does not compare to anything else.
> 
> ...


No vengeance here, just a little reality check. Regardless of how we feel, the world continues to turn and needs have to be met. My mortgage company isn't going to accept, "I just wasn't motivated to send in my check". My boss won't accept "I just didn't feel like coming to work." Hungry kids can't eat good intentions. We all have busy lives. Seems like the only ball that routinely gets dropped is our sexual/emotional responsibilities to our spouse. This woman's entire support, her end of life decisions, etc, are going to eventually rest in the OP's hands. If they both live long enough, he will eventually be the only thing she has. Does it make sense to take care of everyone else but him? 99% of what we consider so important is really just BS in the long run. When she's 90, it won't matter what she bought in 2011, whether the kitchen was spotless back on Sep 19, 2011, won't matter. The way she treated her husband in 2011 might be really important.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> And why would you equate a spouse making love to you or not with bringing home a paycheck? I thought we had this little talk before about how an intimate act like sex cannot be equated to anything else because it does not compare to anything else.


I would argue that makes the statement that much worse, as the wife has just told her husband he is not worth the effort.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Believe me, I'm not always magically "into" lots of things, in fact, I'm "not into" probably 90% of the things I do. She doesn't have to be an expert sex-goddess at all times but she should make his needs her priority if he is important to her. Everything has consequences. We put our spouse on the back-burner often enough, we will pay dearly (and we should). How do husbands and wives go from being "the most important person in the world" pre-marriage to being treated like loose small change?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Intimacy won't come from being petty and playing games.

Sometimes is up with your wife. Maybe she doesn't like certain things you do and is too afraid to tell you? I know that for a while, I wasn't feelin' it towards my husband because he likes to smack my ass and it HURTS. I finally told him and while he still likes to smack it, it's not nearly as hard as before.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Sorry - I must be dense today. I don't understand what you meant.


I agree that sex and intimacy in marriage can not be readily compared to other things (like money, etc.). I believe that is because of the special place it holds in a marriage.

That being said, rejection of this intimacy is especially hard. From the OP, the spouse said she looks at the effort necessary and loses motivation, i.e., it is not worth the effort. Regardless of how she means it, it sure sounds like she is saying intimacy with her husband is not worth the effort.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Has she gained weight? Does she have a female issue and she's embarrassed? These are reasons to look into...


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Secret Herpes?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Zzyzx said:


> Read Athol Kay at Married Man Sex Life.
> I hear his book is good.


This is a good book.

I`ve checked out a lot of books recommended in this forum and this one is the only one that seems to deal with "Real" life in a way I can relate to.

No More Mister Nice Guy is almost too clinical to me but also highly recommended.
The way of the Superior Man is also recommended often but is nothing more than a bunch of new age voodoo as far as I`m concerned.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I will make a stronger statement. The decision to have children with a woman absolutely confirms in her mind that you ACCEPT THE CURRENT STATUS QUO. If you have a child/children with her and THEN draw your line in the sand she will be confused and worse she will not be inclined to try to fix it. 

Don't play games with paychecks. Just stop saying I love you, and stop hugging/touching her and stop calling/texting her during the day. This will destabilize the relationship in a constructive manner. And be upbeat and fun to be around. It seems contradictory but it is not. Be fun to be around - but don't be loving. And when SHE brings it up - just smile and tell her that you don't have the energy to keep making her your highest priority when clearly you aren't even close to number one to her. And then shut up and let her talk.




Hicks said:


> My main advice is if you are young and have no children is to tell your wife that for you, the marriage needs to be sexual, physical and passionate. That sex is very extremely important to you. That you love her and she is not a sex object. And ask her if a sexual, romantic, physical and loving marriage is the one she wants, or does she want to move on to a separation. The point of saying this is not to get separated, but to make sure your wife understands that her marriage is on the line and that she has to work within herself to get over it.
> 
> If it does start working, you then make sure this theme or structure is never lost. This takes effort on your part and it takes effort on your wife's part. People can blame her or say your wife needs to do A,B, or C, but what you should really know is that in an "unmanaged" state, your sex life will default to what you have now. So, you need to manage your marriage in such a way as to upend the default state. This takes actions on your part and actions on her part. You will be more successful in life if you recognize that it is easier to change yourself then another person.
> 
> Once you have children, it is way harder for a wife to wrap her mind around sex, and then due to your attachment to your children and the finances, it is way harder for you to confront your wife over it.


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## Lovely313 (Sep 19, 2011)

To:Unbelievable,

Still chuckling...oh my!!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"I, Miss Bride, do take thee, Chump, to be my lawfully wedded husband with the understanding that I will only do what I feel like doing when I feel like doing it on the condition that he blow endless powder sugar up my behind, that he comply with my every whim, that he read my mind, at least until I find a better deal."


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Are they any stats for the people who 'put it on the line'? I think more than half of the wives and husbands you confront with that will call your bluff or worse, just bolt. 

The thing about deterrence is it has to be 100% credible. So unless you're perfectly ok with a crash and burn scenario you shouldn't make threats. I'm just wondering how many people who try this get burned. I've heard from divorce attorneys of instances where the wife (usually the wife) tries to divorce to get husband to pay attention to her. And what she finds out is, "Hey **** you too, I would rather have half my stuff than any of you!"


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I wonder if the women here believe that marriage places any obligations regarding sex on either party? I believe if one claims the right to expect their spouse to not go elsewhere for it, they have an inherent obligation to take care of their partner's reasonable sexual needs.


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## HappyWife40 (Aug 23, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I wonder if the women here believe that marriage places any obligations regarding sex on either party? I believe if one claims the right to expect their spouse to not go elsewhere for it, they have an inherent obligation to take care of their partner's reasonable sexual needs.


I believe that married people are supposed to have sex and frequently at that. My feeling is, if I'm keeping him really happy in bed, then the desire to go elsewhere will be very low. And by really happy, I mean by being a very willing, passionate partner. Just laying there and wishing it to be over does not constitute love-making in my book. That's more soul-sucking than anything. Even if it's just for him some nights, I am still very much into it. 

There are obviously going to be times in a marriage where sex is not possible, but for two reasonably healthy people it is a necessary aspect to keep a marriage strong and vibrant. Besides that, it is probably the most fun you can have with another human being!


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

HappyWife40 said:


> I believe that married people are supposed to have sex and frequently at that. My feeling is, if I'm keeping him really happy in bed, then the desire to go elsewhere will be very low. And by really happy, I mean by being a very willing, passionate partner. Just laying there and wishing it to be over does not constitute love-making in my book. That's more soul-sucking than anything. Even if it's just for him some nights, I am still very much into it.
> 
> There are obviously going to be times in a marriage where sex is not possible, but for two reasonably healthy people it is a necessary aspect to keep a marriage strong and vibrant. Besides that, it is probably the most fun you can have with another human being!


yes ma'am, it sure is


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I wonder if the women here believe that marriage places any obligations regarding sex on either party? I believe if one claims the right to expect their spouse to not go elsewhere for it, they have an inherent obligation to take care of their partner's reasonable sexual needs.


Disclaimer: I've been married once, in a church of england service, and claim no knowledge or understanding of any other faith or denomination (and in fact a pretty poor understanding of THAT one!).

The CofE marriage mentions those being married having sex during the preface (_'through the joy of their bodily union, may strengthen the union of their hearts and lives.'_ ). I think this is what is meant here.

In the declarations it says _'N, will you take N to be your wife? Will you love her, comfort her, honour and protect her, and, *forsaking all others, be faithful to her* as long as you both shall live?_', emph. mine i.e. you declare you _won't_ have sex with anyone else.

In the vows it isn't mentioned.

Takehome seems to be that you are told you _are permitted _to, and that it _may_ (might? could?) "strengthen the union", that you _declare_ you won't have it with anyone else, but nowhere does anyone say they anyone has to or will do or should do. Go figure.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I wonder if the women here believe that marriage places any obligations regarding sex on either party? I believe if one claims the right to expect their spouse to not go elsewhere for it, they have an inherent obligation to take care of their partner's reasonable sexual needs.


For sure, yes. That is what the marriage vows essentially state (at least mine did  ).

And not to get too religious, but if you are Christian, or were married in a Christian ceremony, this tenet from the apostle Paul is in the Bible for you:

_1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that_. ~ NIV 1 Corinthians 7

Each person in a marriage is responsible for upholding their end of the commitment, BUT you cannot force your spouse to uphold their commitment if they do not wish to. It has to be a commitment that they *willingly* and *voluntarily* uphold. One cannot be compelled to do so.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> For sure, yes. That is what the marriage vows essentially state (at least mine did  ).
> 
> And not to get too religious, but if you are Christian, or were married in a Christian ceremony, this tenet from the apostle Paul is in the Bible for you:
> 
> ...


I.e., "if you really must, make sure you only do it with your wife, and only becuase you really have to, but try not to at all, there's a good chap..."


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I.e., "if you really must, make sure you only do it with your wife, and only becuase you really have to, but try not to at all, there's a good chap..."


I took it "try not to at all, but since you'll probably fail at that, then make sure you only do it with your wife, there's a good chap..."


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I took it "try not to at all, but since you'll probably fail at that, then make sure you only do it with your wife, there's a good chap..."


That section really only makes sense in the context of what was going on in that church, I believe. Maybe my memory isn't completely accurate, but the context of this whole section was that the church at Corinth was in uproar because a guy there was openly having sexual relations with his deceased father's second wife. I think he was just telling them to zip his pants or get married.

My wife and I went through a long period of premarital counseling before the Christian pastor would agree to marry us in his church, since I was not of her faith before meeting her. I think that it is hard to use the bible in cases of the sex life of marriage without considering the context in which it was written. Takes a whole new meaning when the thought of a wife refusing sex was incomprehensible at the time. So much of the new testament was aimed at telling men that they should love their wife and meet her needs - "Love your wives like Christ loved the Church".


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I took it "try not to at all, but since you'll probably fail at that, then make sure you only do it with your wife, there's a good chap..."


None of which is really a positive driver, is it? Sort of, "if you must, but only for medicinal purposes". 

So basically, because someone isn't _voluntarily_ meeting a commitment they never_ explicity _made, they aren't breaking any rules and you don't have a pot to p1ss in.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Halien said:


> That section really only makes sense in the context of what was going on in that church, I believe. Maybe my memory isn't completely accurate, but the context of this whole section was that the church at Corinth was in uproar because a guy there was openly having sexual relations with his deceased father's second wife. I think he was just telling them to zip his pants or get married.
> 
> My wife and I went through a long period of premarital counseling before the Christian pastor would agree to marry us in his church, since I was not of her faith before meeting her. I think that it is hard to use the bible in cases of the sex life of marriage without considering the context in which it was written. Takes a whole new meaning when the thought of a wife refusing sex was incomprehensible at the time. So much of the new testament was aimed at telling men that they should love their wife and meet her needs - "Love your wives like Christ loved the Church".


Yep, you're right. You need to take it within the context of what was happening and why Paul wrote that letter to the church at Corinth.

And with that, we've gone way off topic. I wonder whatever happened to the OP?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If we are only accountable for doing things we like when we feel like it, that's the same committment most animals give. It's the same committment I could get by shacking up. I could actually get a stronger committment from a hooker. If I pay her X, she will do Z regardless of how she feels.


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## penelopek (Sep 21, 2011)

I am the sexless one with my parter, which is hard to believe considering I have always had a higher sex drive than the male in previous relationships. 

The problem is that he doesn't like to have sex the way I like to. This wouldn't be an issue if we could discuss it, but when we have discussions about anything in the relationship he claims I am attacking him if I critique anything. Unfortunately, that leaves me in a place where I am unable to tell him that there are specific things he does in the bedroom that turn me off during sex and kill the possibility of climaxing. We had such a talk before and he could not handle it. He told me he had always been good in bed with previous women (though most of his relationships ended because the woman left for another man), and I was destroying his confidence. So, we don't talk about it anymore and I avoid sex. 

To be specific - the biggest problem is pacing. He is fast and I need slow. I'm not talking about the sex, I'm talking about the foreplay. I like to be teased. I like wondering if we are going to have sex at all. He has taken to trying to stick me with his penis when I wake up and not at all seducing me. If he talked dirty to me and aroused me mentally without touching me until I am soaking wet (like he used to do), we would be over the first hill. When he tries to have sex with me or even touch me before I am aroused - i.e. in the morning when I wake up groggy and don't know what is going on - it absolutely kills the possibility for sex. Being prodded by fingers or penises when you are not interested completely kills the mood and creates a sense of dread for future sexual attempts. 

Now, the next problem is that when he tries to please me he doesn't notice when I am not into it or am trying to move away. Often he exerts a lot of pressure with his tongue and moves very quickly. I've told him before that I'm too sensitive for this, but he hasn't changed anything. He will be down there for an hour with little to no response other than my constant backing away because too much pressure first causes pain and then causes numbness. No climax can happen for me after that and it makes me sad that when I tell him what he can do he ignores it or feels attacked. His response is always "nothing I do is good enough for you". 

Finally, penetration after not being aroused or enduring pain really sucks. It has made me lose interest in sex for the first time in my life and the whole situation has made me less attracted to him. The sex feels like needy sex and not sexy-sex. He "needs it" and he complains and says nasty things to me when he doesn't get it. He used to get nasty if we had sex less than 3 times a day. That really turned me off. I began to feel like sex isn't about us both being excited, just him. 

I also have never had a problem with giving BJ's and am a much more sexually adventurous person than he is (there are things I would love him to do that he just refuses without trial). But somewhere along the way I noticed that his penis really began to smell like urine. I wish I could tell him because I haven't given one BJ in a year for this reason. Sometimes touching is hard too because the smell is repulsive to me and I can't ignore it. But every time I try to talk about sex -or actually anything he does at all -he tells me that I am attacking him and ruining his self esteem. 

The point of the story is that maybe your partner doesn't feel she can talk to you about the real reason for her disinterest. Are you aggressive and defensive when she tries to talk to you? Are you keeping yourself clean and smelling good? Are you noticing at all what is happening when she "loses motivation"? Do you gawk at her ideas for helping the sex and tell her they are stupid? Do you act like a needy child when you want sex or like a sexy, confident man who will not shatter if she is not into it?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It would be tempting to avoid sex if one approaches the issue as attempting to get something they want instead of trying to give someone else what they want. PenelopeK, your satisfaction isn't your responsibility. That's your husband's job and if he takes his job seriously, he will seflessly focus on giving what you need and trust you to take care of his. I figure it this way...God gave me three of His creations; my wife, my kids, and my animals. He trusts me to take care of them and if I don't, I'm not just letting them down. My responsibility doesn't depend on how my wife, kids, or animals act or how they treat me. My wife and kids have to answer to Him for their own decisions. I just have to answer for mine. I understand other people have different belief systems, but for me, I just try to stay in my lane, do the best I can and trust God for the rest. Talking to you folks helps, too.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> If we are only accountable for doing things we like when we feel like it, that's the same committment most animals give. It's the same committment I could get by shacking up. I could actually get a stronger committment from a hooker. If I pay her X, she will do Z regardless of how she feels.


Who said only doing things when you feel like it? If a spouse is not willing to live up to their end of the commitment, then their partner has the option to leave and find someone who is willing to commit to them.

“_There are two primary choices in life: to accept conditions as they exist, or accept the responsibility for changing them_.” ~ Denis Waitley 

You can't force someone to be committed to you anymore than you can force someone to love you. You can't force someone to be accountable even though they should be. You can only truly hold yourself accountable for your own actions and commitments.

"_You must take personal responsibility. You cannot change the circumstances, the seasons, or the wind, but you can change yourself_. " ~Jim Rohn

And your last sentence is pretty crass. If you can compare the intimacy that should exist in marriage between a husband and wife to paying a hooker for sex, then I feel sorry for you.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It's apparently just a lousy arrangement all the way around. Enter into an agreement. If the other party doesn't fulfill their end, you can get out but it'll cost you at least half of everything you have or will have.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> And what if she has her own paycheck?
> 
> And why would you equate a spouse making love to you or not with bringing home a paycheck? I thought we had this little talk before about how an intimate act like sex cannot be equated to anything else because it does not compare to anything else.


You know, that sounds like an OUTSTANDING justification to use sex as a control mechanism. Why shouldn't financial support be on the table with sex? The two are decidedly intertwined at the moment. Either sex is "on the table" or it's not -- but if it's not, then other things aren't on the table either. Financial support, all other things being equal, would certainly qualify.



Enchantment said:


> You and okey are just seeking vengeance because you have a lot of resentment toward your wives. I would suggest that you work on LETTING IT GO so that your life does not get engulfed in bitterness. Both you and okey are *too good of men *for that.


And that sounds like another outstanding justification for female control of the dynamic: Male feelings are unimportant, relatively speaking, compared to the importance of the _female _in a relationship not being unduly emotionally inconvenienced, because she has ultimate control of the sexual dynamic and therefore must be capitulated to at every corner (i.e. suck it up and go whack off, boys.)


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> You know, that sounds like an OUTSTANDING justification to use sex as a control mechanism. Why shouldn't financial support be on the table with sex? The two are decidedly intertwined at the moment. Either sex is "on the table" or it's not -- but if it's not, then other things aren't on the table either. Financial support, all other things being equal, would certainly qualify.
> 
> 
> 
> And that sounds like another outstanding justification for female control of the dynamic: Male feelings are unimportant, relatively speaking, compared to the importance of the _female _in a relationship not being unduly emotionally inconvenienced, because she has ultimate control of the sexual dynamic and therefore must be capitulated to at every corner (i.e. suck it up and go whack off, boys.)


If a man withholds his paycheck because he isn't getting sex, it is prostitution, not marriage. Likewise, if a woman won't have sex because he didn't give her his paycheck, it is prostitution and not marriage.

I won't bother to address your second part because it is ridiculous. You make sweeping declarations that the woman has the power and the mans feelings are shelved but then again you equate a wife with a prostitute so yeah, there's that.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> You know, that sounds like an OUTSTANDING justification to use sex as a control mechanism. Why shouldn't financial support be on the table with sex? The two are decidedly intertwined at the moment. Either sex is "on the table" or it's not -- but if it's not, then other things aren't on the table either. Financial support, all other things being equal, would certainly qualify.
> 
> 
> 
> And that sounds like another outstanding justification for female control of the dynamic: Male feelings are unimportant, relatively speaking, compared to the importance of the _female _in a relationship not being unduly emotionally inconvenienced, because she has ultimate control of the sexual dynamic and therefore must be capitulated to at every corner (i.e. suck it up and go whack off, boys.)


Nope. In my mind there is no equivalency between anything else and sexual intimacy within a marriage. It has a special place all of its own. It does not have to do with control at all. As a matter of fact, it is almost quite the opposite - vulnerability. You may feel differently, that's okay. 

If you want to twist my words into something that they did not mean, that is also fine. All you have to do is read through my history of posts to know that your last paragraph does not apply to me. I am sorry for you if you feel that it does apply in your life.

“_To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless--it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable_.” ~ C.S. Lewis


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Maybe what your wife means is there is too much drama involved. Maybe she is saying sometimes she has the urge to just have sex, not do all that emotional mumbo-jumbo as well. Maybe she just wants to get off, have it be a physical thing once in a while. Maybe the point A is the initiation of the sex, and point B is the orgasm. I dunno, just throwing that out there.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Happy Husband=Generous Husband.*



unbelievable said:


> "I, Miss Bride, do take thee, Chump, to be my lawfully wedded husband with the understanding that I will only do what I feel like doing when I feel like doing it on the condition that he blow endless powder sugar up my behind, that he comply with my every whim, that he read my mind, at least until I find a better deal."


:lol::lol::lol: So sad that some people still think of marriage this way.

Sugar up the bum? Sounds itchy. 

Ask any career woman if she would marry a man who is not financially stable- Some traditions never go completely out the window. 

One hand washes the other and if a wife refuses to be intimate, she can't expect her husband to enjoy giving her anything! Resentment builds..... a happy husband is a generous one. 

One of my cousins refuses to have sex with her husband or do any housework.  She does not work, yet she expects her husband to pay for a housekeeper. Only a selfish and immature wife sits on her butt all day, doesn't cook or clean and then squawks about designer clothes and luxury vacations. She wanted a new wedding set on her finger and her husband told her to eff off. I can't say I blame him!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Nope. In my mind there is no equivalency between anything else and sexual intimacy within a marriage. It has a special place all of its own. It does not have to do with control at all. As a matter of fact, it is almost quite the opposite - vulnerability. You may feel differently, that's okay.
> 
> If you want to twist my words into something that they did not mean, that is also fine. All you have to do is read through my history of posts to know that your last paragraph does not apply to me. I am sorry for you if you feel that it does apply in your life.
> 
> “_To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless--it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable_.” ~ C.S. Lewis



The idea that sex is somehow "more specialer" than any other aspect of our daily lives only favors the feminine perspective -- knowing that its the primary motivation for most men, by "taking it off the table" in terms of negotiating the relationship, women essentially establish control by default. If sex was truly independent of all other aspects of our lives then it wouldn't matter if you were pissed off, how you felt about your mate, or anything else. But it isn't. By elevating sex to something that can't be compared to anything else, to be dispensed only as a function of your feminine (or, in rare cases, masculine) grace, you create an unfair and unnecessary complication to the relationship that is ultimately unhealthy . . . for men.

It's quite easy for women (in general -- and yes, I acknowledge that there are ample exceptions) to claim there's no correlation between sex and security in a relationship but the simple and easily demonstrated fact is that there is indeed such a relationship. If your husband is unemployed or doesn't make enough money to support the marriage then you aren't going to have as much sex with him, in general, despite your noble ideal of sex as being in-equivalent to anything else. If he provides more security, the safe bet is he's going to get more nookie, everything else being equal. There's plenty of research demonstrating that men who provide higher security enjoy more active sex lives. And men who don't provide security (and there's a lot of them in this economy) in general see a diminished sex life, even if the marriage is otherwise solid and stable.

You can even look at statistics and accounts from marriages where the wife makes more than the husband (another common occurrence these days) and the sex life goes down with the man's ability to provide security even when security is not a serious issue within the relationship. So the link exists in nearly all marriages, whether you want to see it that way or not. 

Indeed, your unwillingness to acknowledge that sex has a _de facto_ practical equivalence to and interrelation with security issues basically devalues the masculine contribution to the equation even _more_, because it denies the husband control over his sexual expression (outside of masturbation) _at all_. Either the husband has to patiently wait until the wife _graciously _deigns to have sex with him (thus fulfilling his primary need), _allegedly_ unconnected to any other factor than her mood but _practically_ completely related to his ability to provide security (her primary need), OR he's forced by his wife's position to risk being unfairly judged and labelled when he actually tries to pursue his primary need.

Buying into your idea has led to thousands of men getting (figuratively) shafted over the years, objectively speaking. And that's one of the things that makes us mad, or "bitter", as you call it. It's a brutal control mechanism wrapped in a dozen red roses. If sex is "off the table", in-equivalent to anything else, then there is _nothing_ Hubby can do to influence whether or not he has sex that isn't dictated by his wife's whims -- and assuming he's faithful, he has absolutely no leverage in the equation.

Which is a very good thing for wives. Having a remote control that you refuse to admit is a remote control. Being the only game in town and then using that fact as leverage while systematically denying that's what you're doing. Under that rubric it allows women to participate in a relationship under false pretenses, and keeps them from being accountable.

What if the situation was reversed? What if men decided that "there's no equivalency between anything else and the intimacy of providing security (emotional and financial) in a marriage"? And suddenly whether or not there was anything in the bank account after bills were paid, or his willingness to give you the non-sexual physical affection you crave, were merely things that he did only as a display of his grace, i.e. when he felt in the mood?

The fact is, sex is _always_ on the table and open for negotiation for men in a marriage. Women may claim otherwise, but they're fooling themselves and trying to fool us if they actually believe it. And trying to draw a moral equivalency with that fact and prostitution, as was done above, not only points out the weakness of the argument (because prostitution easily dismisses the idea that sex and security are NOT inter-connected, because it demonstrates that there is, in fact, a correlation between the two in the eyes of men), it also denigrates the prostitute, a fellow woman, who is practicing her trade in pursuit of her own security (in an ideal situation). 

Until this issue is discussed fairly, openly, and without prejudice, you're going to see quite a bit of "bitterness" among men, I'm afraid.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If a man withholds his paycheck because he isn't getting sex, it is prostitution, not marriage. Likewise, if a woman won't have sex because he didn't give her his paycheck, it is prostitution and not marriage.
> 
> I won't bother to address your second part because it is ridiculous. You make sweeping declarations that the woman has the power and the mans feelings are shelved but then again you equate a wife with a prostitute so yeah, there's that.


That's a very narrow and unsophisticated view of both prostitution and marriage.

Say he does bring home the paycheck, pays all the household bills . . . and then keeps the surplus in a separate account where she can't touch it, unless he decides she can? That would be fair, wouldn't it?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> The idea that sex is somehow "more specialer" than any other aspect of our daily lives only favors the feminine perspective -- knowing that its the primary motivation for most men, by "taking it off the table" in terms of negotiating the relationship, women essentially establish control by default. If sex was truly independent of all other aspects of our lives then it wouldn't matter if you were pissed off, how you felt about your mate, or anything else. But it isn't. By elevating sex to something that can't be compared to anything else, to be dispensed only as a function of your feminine (or, in rare cases, masculine) grace, you create an unfair and unnecessary complication to the relationship that is ultimately unhealthy . . . for men.
> 
> It's quite easy for women (in general -- and yes, I acknowledge that there are ample exceptions) to claim there's no correlation between sex and security in a relationship but the simple and easily demonstrated fact is that there is indeed such a relationship. If your husband is unemployed or doesn't make enough money to support the marriage then you aren't going to have as much sex with him, in general, despite your noble ideal of sex as being in-equivalent to anything else. If he provides more security, the safe bet is he's going to get more nookie, everything else being equal. There's plenty of research demonstrating that men who provide higher security enjoy more active sex lives. And men who don't provide security (and there's a lot of them in this economy) in general see a diminished sex life, even if the marriage is otherwise solid and stable.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure the poor OP has left the building by now. 

Why don't you open your own thread?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That's a very narrow and unsophisticated view of both prostitution and marriage.
> 
> Say he does bring home the paycheck, pays all the household bills . . . and then keeps the surplus in a separate account where she can't touch it, unless he decides she can? That would be fair, wouldn't it?


Sex for money IS prostitution. That's the actual definition of it. 
Not sure where you are going with the witholding the paycheck as I don't equate sex and money as being relevant in marriage.
Hooker on the street, sure.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Sex for money IS prostitution. That's the actual definition of it.
> Not sure where you are going with the witholding the paycheck as I don't equate sex and money as being relevant in marriage.
> Hooker on the street, sure.


How about sex for a diamond ring? Sex for a vacation weekend? Sex for a new car? Sex for an expensive wedding? Sex for a fat IRA? Sex for a promotion at work? Sex for an emerald bracelet?

All of those things equal money. All of them happen in nearly every married relationship at some point or another, either _quid pro quo _or as a continuing series of rewards for achievement and performance. 

If money and sex weren't related in a marriage, then married men wouldn't go to hookers. And women wouldn't bother with seeing if a dude has a job before they get married.

If sex and money weren't connected, then as husband and wife you'd agree to split the household expenses 50/50 and each control the surplus from their respective jobs without guilt, recrimination, or judgement.

It's all connected. It's all on the table. Always.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You see throngs of women lining up to marry unemployed men? Ever see a TV show, "Who wants to marry a really nice, penniless guy?" Or "Hobo matchmaker"? Marriage throughout history and throughout most of the world has always been primarily an exchange of sex and nurturing for security.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> How about sex for a diamond ring? Sex for a vacation weekend? Sex for a new car? Sex for an expensive wedding? Sex for a fat IRA? Sex for a promotion at work? Sex for an emerald bracelet?
> 
> All of those things equal money. All of them happen in nearly every married relationship at some point or another, either _quid pro quo _or as a continuing series of rewards for achievement and performance.
> 
> ...


You certainly seem to have a very mercenary view of marriage and sex. That is sad, I think.

Personally, in my own marriage none of what you wrote above is true. I have never had sex for baubles or vacations. It is not about the money. I have sex with my husband because I love him and sex is one of the ways that I express that.

Perhaps the mercenary machinations you mention are in some people's marriages, and if so, then they have truly missed the boat on what marriage and intimacy within marriage can be.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Honey it's not your mind you need to wrap around something.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Marriage throughout history and throughout most of the world has always been primarily an exchange of sex and nurturing for security.


While there are some places throughout the world that this type of exchange still applies, I would like to think we can move beyond this.

I certainly am grateful that this has not applied to me, because I cannot think of anything colder and more hollow for an individual than being there for nothing other than sex and to potentially have little say in the direction of your life. I think it is equally demeaning for men to be looked at as nothing more than money bags.

You know, just because it has happened in the past, and unfortunately still happens in places today, does not mean that it is the right thing to do. People should be respected for who they are and given opportunities to make choices about their own lives.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Honey it's not your mind you need to wrap around something.


:rofl:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If wives on this forum complained that their husbands (although clearly able) simply refused to work for years on end, the unanimous advise would be for them to leave their sorry bums. There would be no sentimental persuasion regarding everylasting love, emotional bonds, etc. A man announcing his intention before marriage to never support his wife has about the same chance of getting married as a woman announcing her intention to remain celibate after marriage.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> How about sex for a diamond ring? Sex for a vacation weekend? Sex for a new car? Sex for an expensive wedding? Sex for a fat IRA? Sex for a promotion at work? Sex for an emerald bracelet?
> 
> All of those things equal money. All of them happen in nearly every married relationship at some point or another, either _quid pro quo _or as a continuing series of rewards for achievement and performance.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, how to respond. **Pulls up chair , cracks knuckles, stretches out arms, wiggles fingers, clears throat (ahem)** and yeah, not worth much response accept for this:
The next time you buy your wife diamond earrings, tell her it's because she did anal the night before not because you love her and thought she would appreciate it. Then wait for her to say she did anal to get the diamond earrings, not because she loves you or appreciates you.
See how that both goes over.


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## WakingUpFinally (Sep 23, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> While there are some places throughout the world that this type of exchange still applies, I would like to think we can move beyond this.
> 
> I certainly am grateful that this has not applied to me, because I cannot think of anything colder and more hollow for an individual than being there for nothing other than sex and to potentially have little say in the direction of your life. I think it is equally demeaning for men to be looked at as nothing more than money bags.
> 
> You know, just because it has happened in the past, and unfortunately still happens in places today, does not mean that it is the right thing to do. People should be respected for who they are and given opportunities to make choices about their own lives.


I've been scanning this forum for weeks now and this is the first time I've jumped in but I think I have an interesting situation that might apply here.

My w and I have been married for 16 years, in a relationship for 18, 2 kids. We both make about the same amount of money (I think I'm $5k or so ahead but she has better bennies) and we live a comfortable life. She thinks we have plenty of sex and I want more and more variety. I've brought this up several times in MC and she thinks I should be content with what I've got and quit complaining because other people don't have it so good. OK. Maybe so but I can't help wanting more sex and she says we have enough so I guess we have enough no matter what I think lol.

That's why what Ian is saying is making alarms go off. I've asked her repeatedly for more sex and been extra nice and done what she's wanted without going all "Nice Guy" but she's unwilling to do those things I want her to or as often as I want them. Then two months ago I inherited some money from the sale of my grandmothers house that she (my w) doesn't know about ($64k after taxes). Since all our bills are paid (ecept for her student loans which she got before I met her), why shouldn't I keep this money seperate and use it only to do things that promote me getting what I want?

It just seems unfair that we only have sex on her terms and in her ways when we're both in this marriage. She thinks like Enchantment that there is no connection between money and sex. If thats true then I should be able to use this money for what I want right? Because I feel there is (suspect anyway) something like Ian says, always a connection between money and sex. When I was unemployed for six months a few years ago we almost stopped having sex completely, not because I didn't want to. As soon as I got a job things started again. Go figure.

Enchantment it sounds like you are saying things should be a certain way, but for most of us things aer more like Ian says even if our wives say what you say that there is no connection. So if thats so I should be able to use this money for me, right? And spend it on things that make me happy without telling my wife? Its a lot of money (for us anyway) and I know she'd want to spend it on other stuff, not on stuff for me. So if I tell her that I want to do that and there is no connection between money and sex then she will still have sex with me the same frequency as before if you're right. Right?

I'm just curious about this because I keep hearing women say this but when something real comes up suddenly their tune changes. It doesn't seem fair. Is that the right thing to do or not?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Nah, there's no connection between sex and money. That's why homely girls get all the Hooters jobs. That's why some women strip and let strange men stuff money in their g strings. That's why we have shows called "who wants to marry a millionaire" and "hobo matchmaker". That's why a fossil like Hugh Hefner has 20 year old girlfriends. That's why otherwise respectable women try to flash me their breasts to get out of a stupid speeding ticket or offer me sex to get out of a DUI. That would explain why the Miss America pageant involves a swimsuit parade and why every shaving cream or man's deodorant commercial involves an attractive woman. Don't think the arrangement involves an expectation for money? I invite any married guy to inform his wife that he will no longer bring home the cheddar. Marriage is all about love and two hearts in harmony.. It wouldn't be right to expect him to go to work. That would cheapen the relationship.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Nah, there's no connection between sex and money. That's why homely girls get all the Hooters jobs. That's why some women strip and let strange men stuff money in their g strings. That's why we have shows called "who wants to marry a millionaire" and "hobo matchmaker". That's why a fossil like Hugh Hefner has 20 year old girlfriends. That's why otherwise respectable women try to flash me their breasts to get out of a stupid speeding ticket or offer me sex to get out of a DUI. That would explain why the Miss America pageant involves a swimsuit parade and why every shaving cream or man's deodorant commercial involves an attractive woman. Don't think the arrangement involves an expectation for money? I invite any married guy to inform his wife that he will no longer bring home the cheddar. Marriage is all about love and two hearts in harmony.. It wouldn't be right to expect him to go to work. That would cheapen the relationship.


We were talking about within marriage but yeah, let's take it out of context. Also, only men work and "bring home the cheddar". It's 2011, not 1911 but at least I am more clear to where you are coming from.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

WakingUpFinally said:


> I've been scanning this forum for weeks now and this is the first time I've jumped in but I think I have an interesting situation that might apply here.
> 
> My w and I have been married for 16 years, in a relationship for 18, 2 kids. We both make about the same amount of money (I think I'm $5k or so ahead but she has better bennies) and we live a comfortable life. She thinks we have plenty of sex and I want more and more variety. I've brought this up several times in MC and she thinks I should be content with what I've got and quit complaining because other people don't have it so good. OK. Maybe so but I can't help wanting more sex and she says we have enough so I guess we have enough no matter what I think lol.
> 
> ...


Well you have already made up your mind about money and sex within marriage. You are witholding money because you feel she is withholding sex. Pay for play.
Also, not having sex during unemployment could have been for a number of reasons. Moping around the house, feeling sorry for oneself, depression, etc. My husband did all of that and it sure wasn't sexy. Desperation never is. You however jump to the conclusion that money=sex and vice versa. That's a sad existence in marriage.


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## dawgfan (Jul 22, 2011)

Hey blankstare -

Haven't heard an update from you - hope you are hanging in there. It's tough when a couple isn't on the same page sexually - it can be hard to talk about and often leaves both of you feeling hurt, rejected and misunderstood.

Your needs are definitely valid. But I do wonder if there's something going on with your wife that needs to be resolved for you guys to get back on track.

A few questions - you don't have to answer them here, but they might lead to some clues about what could be going on:

How's your relationship otherwise? You probably know this, but for women, intimacy is more than physical. If there's a breakdown somewhere, it'll definitely affect your sex life.

Is your wife struggling with depression or taking meds? Is she stressed about money, work, or something else? These can be big factors.

Could there be some other physical issue - female problems, hormone imbalance, health problem? Is she willing to see a doctor?

Has your wife experienced sexual trauma in the past - assault or abuse? Does she feel any shame about past relationships or sexuality in general? Is she uncomfortable with anything you're asking for in bed?

Do you and/or your wife view porn? Believe it or not, this can actually kill your sex life, especially if a woman doesn't feel she "measures up" to the fantasy. 

Just some thoughts - they may or may not apply. I'd really encourage you guys to think about counseling to get at the root of this. Here's a Q&A with more info and a couple of book suggestions.

Take care, friend.

dawgfan


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> You see throngs of women lining up to marry unemployed men? Ever see a TV show, "Who wants to marry a really nice, penniless guy?" Or "Hobo matchmaker"? Marriage throughout history and throughout most of the world has always been primarily an exchange of sex and nurturing for security.


My husband proposed to me and then lost his job. I still married him.

The whole time he was unemployed, I had even more sex with him. I didn't want to trample on his already damaged ego.


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