# How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" video



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" video*

There's this video that a woman made where she filmed herself walking for 10 hours through NYC to show all the sexual and verbal harassment that is typical. This is a short clip of what she went through:


```
10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
```
Is that a typical experience for women? I felt pretty anxious watching it. I made it a text link, so you'll have to cut and paste the link to see it.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I think, anyone that spends 10 hours walking around New York City would be able to find 2 minutes worth of interactions that made them uncomfortable. 

The blatentness of some of the comments was surprising.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



leftfield said:


> I think, anyone that spends 10 hours walking around New York City would be able to find 2 minutes worth of interactions that made them uncomfortable.
> 
> The blatentness of some of the comments was surprising.


As a man, this video does not mirror my experience. Although I've never walked in NYC, I have walked many other places and have not had sexual harassment like this--virtually none at all.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I would say that yes, it is a decent representation if you are walking alone in a big city. However, many of the comments made by men were, IMO, just friendly gestures and not meant to make her uncomfortable.

As to the random comments from randos...meh. Yes it happens, and no it does not bother me. People are free to say what they want.

The guy who would not stop walking next to her, THAT would bother me.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Over my lifetime, men have usually been apologizing for their cussing/behavior/friends more than harassing.

The last time a stranger was inappropriate with me, I was working at a ski lodge about a year and a half ago, and a guest kept 'joking' about me coming to his room.

We had already been having problems with male guests being gross with the younger female staff, and the response of the 2 male managers was very surprising and disappointing to me.

This resort is in a very liberal part of the country where most men consider themselves feminists. But our managers basically wanted to blow off this behavior like it was nothing. 

So I went to the higher ranking female manager, and she took care of it immediately.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Meh, common, annoying and easily ignored. Try walking around in Rome (Italy) as a female ... the frequency of the touching/grabbing of body parts is _beyond_ annoying, most in the USA would call it assault.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Red Sonja said:


> Meh, common, annoying and easily ignored. Try walking around in Rome (Italy) as a female ... the frequency of the touching/grabbing of body parts is _beyond_ annoying, most in the USA would call it assault.


Yeah. Those guys would be dead if I was a woman trying to visit.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Red Sonja said:


> Meh, common, annoying and easily ignored. Try walking around in Rome (Italy) as a female ... the frequency of the touching/grabbing of body parts is _beyond_ annoying, most in the USA would call it assault.


That’s terrifying. I’ve heard about this before, and one time saw and example of it on a TV show, where a woman was wearing a skirt and a man just literally walked up to her and touched her leg on the street. :surprise::frown2::|

Do you or does anyone have an idea of what the men think this is going to accomplish? Do they think a woman will enjoy being groped and say hey baby, lets get it on? Do they just want to intimidate women and make them know they are physically vulnerable?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Red Sonja said:


> Meh, common, annoying and easily ignored. Try walking around in Rome (Italy) as a female ... the frequency of the touching/grabbing of body parts is _beyond_ annoying, most in the USA would call it assault.


That reminds me of the photo "An American Girl in Italy". It's a famous photo taken in 1951 of a single woman walking down down a street in Florence while more than a dozen men are in some combination of staring, leering, catcalling, etc. Here's an article with the woman, Ninalee Craig. I found her opinion about what women should do in that environment surprising, but I'm sure typical for the times.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/30/europe/tbt-ruth-orkin-american-girl-in-italy/index.html


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> There's this video that a woman made where she filmed herself walking for 10 hours through NYC to show all the sexual and verbal harassment that is typical. This is a short clip of what she went through:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


the video is not there


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> the video is not there


I'm not sure what happened. This is the video and I updated the first post as well:



10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> That’s terrifying. I’ve heard about this before, and one time saw and example of it on a TV show, where a woman was wearing a skirt and a man just literally walked up to her and touched her leg on the street. :surprise::frown2::|


I lived in Italy for years. It's very common, but more common from Rome south. Northern Italians often think that they are too high class to act like that.

It gets to be a real nuisance when you cannot even walk to work, school, shopping, etc without feeling like you are a slab on meat on display.



Faithful Wife said:


> Do you or does anyone have an idea of what the men think this is going to accomplish? Do they think a woman will enjoy being groped and say hey baby, lets get it on? Do they just want to intimidate women and make them know they are physically vulnerable?


They do it because in that culture that's what men do. This is especially true with younger men who are just hanging out.

I think that a lot of the time it's a male bonding thing. Some guys shows off about how a stud he is to his buddies by making comments to women/girls who walks by.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> I'm not sure what happened. This is the video and I updated the first post as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman


Yea, that's normal.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> I lived in Italy for years. It's very common, but more common from Rome south. Northern Italians often think that they are too high class to act like that.
> 
> It gets to be a real nuisance when you cannot even walk to work, school, shopping, etc without feeling like you are a slab on meat on display.
> 
> ...


So it’s really not about women, it’s about male bravado? And are these men actually not a harm to women, they are just acting out?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Of course the problem (agreeing with you I think) is that you can't tell. Even if 99% are harmless, there is no way to distinguish them from the 1% who are actually out to cause trouble / assault 

Women are stuck having to figure out how to react, knowing that every once in a while, the wrong reaction results in assault. 






Faithful Wife said:


> So it’s really not about women, it’s about male bravado? And are these men actually not a harm to women, they are just acting out?


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## Tiggy! (Sep 9, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> *I lived in Italy for years. It's very common, but more common from Rome south. Northern Italians often think that they are too high class to act like that.
> 
> It gets to be a real nuisance when you cannot even walk to work, school, shopping, etc without feeling like you are a slab on meat on display.*


Paris is the same from my experience.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



ConanHub said:


> Yeah. Those guys would be dead if I was a woman trying to visit.


But that’s the thing. If you were a woman you wouldn’t have the size and strength that you do. So you can’t really say that. Women know we can’t physically challenge most men and we don’t try unless we literally are having to fight for our lives. Even then odds are we will not overcome a man. 

Some women are trained fighters and could totally take down the average man, but it’s one thing to say “if I was a woman I would..” and quite another thing to be faced with that actuality. We can be strong internally and maybe get away from him, but we can’t generally make a man afraid of us and cause him to retreat just based on physics.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> So it’s really not about women, it’s about male bravado? And are these men actually not a harm to women, they are just acting out?


My experience is that most are just acting out. Some are dangerous. The problem is you can never tell which ones are dangerous until they do something that is dangerous.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> But that’s the thing. If you were a woman you wouldn’t have the size and strength that you do. So you can’t really say that. Women know we can’t physically challenge most men and we don’t try unless we literally are having to fight for our lives. Even then odds are we will not overcome a man.
> 
> Some women are trained fighters and could totally take down the average man, but it’s one thing to say “if I was a woman I would..” and quite another thing to be faced with that actuality. We can be strong internally and maybe get away from him, but we can’t generally make a man afraid of us and cause him to retreat just based on physics.


My intent would be there but I hear ya.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I am an average looking woman who never dresses skimpy and I live in a small city. 

I get cat called, harassed, threatened, and/ or other sexual comments about once a month. 

Some are “harmless”. Sometimes it leads to a dangerous situation where I’m being yelled at or followed or feel scared. 

I’ve been cat called while with my kids and it scares them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I am an average looking woman who never dresses skimpy and I live in a small city.
> 
> I get cat called, harassed, threatened, and/ or other sexual comments about once a month.
> 
> ...


Grrrrr


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

It sucks, but just another sign of lack of respect in society.

Honestly though, I work in NYC, and for 25 years of walking around, I've seen guys make comments maybe 4-5 times, usually along the lines of either "how you doing" type of thing, or "wow". I've never heard anyone cat call (and I've been around a lot of construction sites esp. since 2001) try to touch someone, or be really lewd in their comments.

That guy walking along with her was REALLY creepy, and if you women have to deal with this all the time, i feel for you.
All the more reason to have self-defense training for women in school!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



jlg07 said:


> It sucks, but just another sign of lack of respect in society.
> 
> Honestly though, I work in NYC, and for 25 years of walking around, I've seen guys make comments maybe 4-5 times, usually along the lines of either "how you doing" type of thing, or "wow". I've never heard anyone cat call (and I've been around a lot of construction sites esp. since 2001) try to touch someone, or be really lewd in their comments.
> 
> ...


But we have had discussions on TAM several times where we women have been told that we should appreciate that “men are attracted” to us, and they would love it if women were cat calling them all the time. And also if we called it creepy behavior, we get slammed 15 different ways (for daring to call any man a creep) and then we get told that he “wouldn’t be creepy if you thought he was cute”.

So anyway I’ve learned not to expect any support from men about this around here.

It’s nice that some of you do see it.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> But we have had discussions on TAM several times where we women have been told that we should appreciate that “men are attracted” to us, and they would love it if women were cat calling them all the time. And also if we called it creepy behavior, we get slammed 15 different ways (for daring to call any man a creep) and then we get told that he “wouldn’t be creepy if you thought he was cute”.


I'm pretty sure that the "men" who say that kind of stuff are the same creeps who are do that kind of creepy behavior.

I wish we could hire some huge weightlifters to stare and "complement" them when they're in the shower at the gym. The creeps will certainly appreciate that someone is giving them complements and finding them attractive.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> I'm pretty sure that the "men" who say that kind of stuff are the same creeps who are do that kind of creepy behavior.
> 
> I wish we could hire some huge weightlifters to stare and "complement" them when they're in the shower at the gym. The creeps will certainly appreciate that someone is giving them complements and finding them attractive.


See I always made that point too, that unless men were being cat called by much larger gay men, they can’t really understand what we go through. And honestly the guys just ***** slapped me for saying that. 

A lot of those guys are not here anymore. This was back when there was a significant amount of red pill guys here. And yeah, those guys literally sit around writing blog posts about how we only call them creeps if we don’t find them attractive and if we do find them attractive then we call it flirting. Then they also mock us “oh boo hoo I’m a hot chick and everyone wants me” and similar.

It was a **** show here, honestly.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> I'm not sure what happened. This is the video and I updated the first post as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman


A lot of it seemed pretty tame but the disturbing ones were the idiots who acted hacked off that she was just walking and not responding. The one guy just walking with her was super annoying and almost scary but the wingnut, who kept asking her out and walking with her and asking is it because he was ugly, was especially disturbing.

They grow them stupid there.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

At the gym the other day there was a very attractive young woman in a sports bra and yoga pants. She might as well have been pantless. They were painted on. Everyone there was looking, women included. Most did the "what the?" stare and quickly realized what they were doing and looked away. Me included.

But... of course... there were the morons. They stopped. They stared. The smiled. They said hi. As soon as she went to the other side of the gym, they all started high-fiving and laughing and whispering about what they saw. These were grown men. Pathetic. Like they had never seen a woman before.

All of the men doing the stupid behavior were your typical out-of-shape, probably haven't had sex in the past year, just at the gym to get away from the wife, stand around and talk instead of actually working out type of guys.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Most of the ones I get are tame but because of some of the dangerous ones (which are rare) combined with my anxiety, I panic. I wear headphones while out so I don't look approachable, but I don't listen to music when men are around because I need to stay aware. I pretend to talk on the phone if I'm feeling uncomfortable. My son (old teens) wants to walk with me some places if it's dark or I have to go by a bar or a area of town that isn't great. 

Until someone has had the moment of fear where they do the mental inventory of what they could use in their bag as a weapon and who knows where you are that can call the police if you go missing, you don't understand the fear that women deal with constantly. 

I'm happy to see so many men here that condemn it.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

As a younger woman, the comments were constant and made just walking in public a challenge some times.

When I explained to my father what it was like to just take a train ride, he was shocked. He didn't realize how many men out in the world are aggressive and disrespectful to women.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Adding - I think this is representative, not just in NY, of course. My experience is that this is widespread in the world and that the harassment in other places can be markedly worse.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

It is very unfortunate that some men act like this. Even if its a minority, during a day there are so many possibilities for interactions that that minority still results in a lot of bad encounters. Some small percentage of those are actively dangerous.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Guys like this need broken in half.

Glad she stood up to him and it was in public, on camera.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/10/04/eu...ent-intl/index.html?r=https://www.google.com/


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Red Sonja said:


> Meh, common, annoying and easily ignored. Try walking around in Rome (Italy) as a female ... the frequency of the touching/grabbing of body parts is _beyond_ annoying, most in the USA would call it assault.


In my country, Mexico, it is as bad as in Italy. Just last week I ripped a Mexican national living in Texas a new one. He did new floors on one of my rental properties and asked me out to lunch after he was done doing the work. I thought it was odd, but we were both single so why the heck not right?

No sooner did we have lunch that I couldn't fend this MACHO off. I was able to keep him at Bay for about a week. Comes Saturday, he sees my car at the rental property and he shows up. I stupidly opened the door and he groped me and wanted to kiss me. WTF! I let him know that in America when a woman says no it means NO! Piece of ****, male chauvenist pig! I screamed at the top of my lungs and my renters next door came out. I told them that if this darn macho ever stepped foot in my property again, that they would be my witnesses that this man was a perve and I would call the cops on his ass. No one is allowed to man handle me if I said No and don't want to be disrespected that way. 

Not all Mexican men have a macho complex, but this ass hole sure did! Not only that, I had 20 missed calls from this jerk the next day and two messages (Sunday). I sent a cop to his place and took a snapshot of the 20 missed calls. I can't believe I was being stalked at my age! Crazy times for women I tell you.

I had two last missed calls on Tuesday and none after that thank goodness.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Glad you are OK Bibi.
Sorry that nobody ever taught him any manners.
My Mom would have whooped me if I ever treated a woman like that, and THEN my Dad would have taken over from her!!!
It's really a shame that nobody is taught to respect anything or anyone -- it's all ME ME ME....


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



jlg07 said:


> Glad you are OK Bibi.
> Sorry that nobody ever taught him any manners.
> My Mom would have whooped me if I ever treated a woman like that, and THEN my Dad would have taken over from her!!!
> It's really a shame that nobody is taught to respect anything or anyone -- it's all ME ME ME....


Thank you. I'm glad I'm OK too. He really scared the living daylights out of me. That is why I screamed and made a scene. I thank the heavens my renters were home. 

He was very insistent on the phone after the lunch date about wanting things to go physical soon, and I would tell him that I was not ready for that yet or if at all. Time would tell, and that was why I didn't actively date. I was not ready for the hassle relationships cause. At 55, I just like my life the way it is. He said he could wait. Obviously, that was a huge lie.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I am an average looking woman who never dresses skimpy and I live in a small city.
> 
> I get cat called, harassed, threatened, and/ or other sexual comments about once a month.
> 
> ...


One thing I've had happen quite a few times is that when I'm walking on a sidewalk some guys in a car/truck will slow down and while driving past me yell out things. It's usually insults and profanity. Sometimes the guy hanging out the window yelling things will try to hit me in the head... sometimes with his hand, sometimes with an object like a notebook or piece of wood. it's very frightening.

About 4 years ago I started walking the 4 miles home from work every day. I had to stop doing that. I lived in a rural area so there were not a lot of people around. I had to walk past a auto repair shop that always had low lives hanging out. Because of this I always walked on the other side of the street from the shop. The guys in the shop would come out and yell things. Then after a while, they started crossing the street towards me yelling things. This scared me. I stopped walking home. It really pissed me off. Walking home was a great way to clear my head and feel better after a day in a windowless office.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I'm not patient enough to be a woman. Christ!!!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



ConanHub said:


> I'm not patient enough to be a woman. Christ!!!


Hey - at least you believe us! A lot of men scoff at us, tell us "who cares if the guy went for it they were dating after all!", tell us we are imagining things, tell us that men are just admiring us when cat calling and they mean no harm (as if a man can speak for other men he doesn't know and didn't see), tell us that we are deliberately making things up just to falsely report someone, tell us that we should be flattered by ANY man who hoots "nice legs" or whatever - even if it is a co-worker, tell us that if the guy was cute we would be encouraging him, and on and on.

Which always surprises me because men KNOW they cannot trust other men, that's why they don't want their wives and daughters unattended where groups of questionable men are hanging around.

And then of course we have our own men here who say all of these things and even worse things....


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> One thing I've had happen quite a few times is that when I'm walking on a sidewalk some guys in a car/truck will slow down and while driving past me yell out things. It's usually insults and profanity. Sometimes the guy hanging out the window yelling things will try to hit me in the head... sometimes with his hand, sometimes with an object like a notebook or piece of wood. it's very frightening.
> 
> About 4 years ago I started walking the 4 miles home from work every day. I had to stop doing that. I lived in a rural area so there were not a lot of people around. I had to walk past a auto repair shop that always had low lives hanging out. Because of this I always walked on the other side of the street from the shop. The guys in the shop would come out and yell things. Then after a while, they started crossing the street towards me yelling things. This scared me. I stopped walking home. It really pissed me off. Walking home was a great way to clear my head and feel better after a day in a windowless office.


When we first moved to Houston, a big city in Texas, l learned real quick that women jogging around their neighborhoods was not safe. I was going to drop my daughter off at her school which was 3 blocks from our house when we heard several cops rushing to a creek by the road. 

One of our neighborhood mom's was going for her morning jog and got assaulted, raped and killed. This was an upper middle class neighborhood in the suburbs that anyone should feel safe until something like this happens. 

We need to understand that no woman is safe if there are places where perverts see an opportunity to hunt their prey. Anything close to big cities is prime hunting ground for crazies.

Small towns are not that different either. Remember that evil and evil in humans are always on the prowl. It is sickening, but we must be very careful.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Well I feel like an idiot. I just posted this video on another thread, not realizing this one was here.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> Hey - at least you believe us! A lot of men scoff at us, tell us "who cares if the guy went for it they were dating after all!", tell us we are imagining things, tell us that men are just admiring us when cat calling and they mean no harm (as if a man can speak for other men he doesn't know and didn't see), tell us that we are deliberately making things up just to falsely report someone, tell us that we should be flattered by ANY man who hoots "nice legs" or whatever - even if it is a co-worker, tell us that if the guy was cute we would be encouraging him, and on and on.
> 
> Which always surprises me because men KNOW they cannot trust other men, that's why they don't want their wives and daughters unattended where groups of questionable men are hanging around.
> 
> And then of course we have our own men here who say all of these things and even worse things....


I've seen it happen, just not at the levels being described but that was probably because a lone woman makes the cockroaches bolder.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



bandit.45 said:


> Well I feel like an idiot. I just posted this video on another thread, not realizing this one was here.


No, it was great, because some who may not have seen this thread will see the other one.

I'm super thrilled men are even discussing this with us here.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*











I posted this here a few years ago and men raked me over the coals for it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Bibi1031 said:


> When we first moved to Houston, a big city in Texas, l learned real quick that women jogging around their neighborhoods was not safe. I was going to drop my daughter off at her school which was 3 blocks from our house when we heard several cops rushing to a creek by the road.
> 
> One of our neighborhood mom's was going for her morning jog and got assaulted, raped and killed. This was an upper middle class neighborhood in the suburbs that anyone should feel safe until something like this happens.
> 
> ...


One of my sisters used to jog every day. Some guy (anonymous) started calling her and leaving some pretty ugly messages on their home phone. It was thing like he was watching her. Over time the messages got really bad. He started leaving messages saying that he was going to rape her, kill her, mutilate her, etc. My sister & her husband changed their phone number several times but the guy always knew their new number. By the way she started jogging with their German Shepard and armed with a 9MM.

They called the police many times. Every time the police told them that guys who leave messages like that are wimps who never actually do what they are threatening. So they refused to do a trace on the calls to find out who it is.

After months of this, her son put it together. He had a friend who lived in the neighborhood. Every time my sister and her husband changed their phone number, their son gave the new number to that friend. That friend wrote the number on the chalk board near the phone at their home. The stalker was the father on that friend.

Again my sister called the police. This time with a name and more evidence that they collected the guy was arrested. The police still tried to talk my sister out of having this guy charged. After all they said he really would never do it. Plus his poor wife was pregnant with their 5th child and she could end up having to raise 5 children without their father.

It did go to court. The judge gave the guy a slap on the hand because all of same reasons that the police gave.

This guy worked in the records department of the university where my sister was working on her Master's degree. He had access to person info not only on my sister but all the young woman at the university.

At that time in Florida, several women joggers were found raped, mutilated and dead. The police never checked this guy out to find out if he was the perp in any of those cases.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> Is that a typical experience for women?


Ugh, yeah as the ladies here have already stated, it’s pretty typical of what it’s like actually. I stopped watching towards the end cuz I was getting too anxious for her. 

I’ve experienced pretty much everything captured in the video (and worse). I would get irritated about comments on my body parts (fine ass, tits too small, blah blah), but random comments on my “beauty” or dudes just saying “what’s up?” or “hey baby” didn’t bother me too much. Guys following me, walking with me, or getting pissed because I wouldn’t talk to them was scary (and getting called a ***** when I wouldn’t engage was always fun).

What really upset and scared me tho was getting grabbed, groped, having guys rub their **** on me (yes, their penis! Happened more than once too and not in bars or nightclubs but in seemingly “safe” places like crowded buses and busy shops), and having perverted *******s try to engage me as they masturbated surreptitiously in public (again happened more than once). Just ****ing UGH!!!

This was mostly when I was younger, all throughout my adolescence (as young as 12) and 20s when I had to walk or take public transit everywhere. Now it’s just mostly compliments on my looks, “hungry eyes” staring, and randos trying to engage me in conversation, which is easier to brush off and ignore as opposed to say a **** being rubbed on your hip and backside.

And I’m pretty below average in the looks dept (I think I’m fugly but am aware I’m not objective) and not Helen of Troy or anything. Ain’t even one leaky dilapidated dinghy being launched into battle for me, let alone a thousand ships haha!

All of the above sucked big time...BUT! I have to say all of the negative **** I’ve had to endure from strange men has been balanced out by some wonderful stuff too. Men being kind and solicitous without an agenda when I needed help. 

Like when my car broke down on some train tracks… it had barely come to a stop, I popped the hood and got out, and faster than you can say “damsel in distress”, men from every direction came running to help me (including some firemens from a nearby firehouse! Hot damn!) 

Or the time I was struggling to get my carry-on in the overhead luggage compartment and this young soldier asked to help me and not only did he put it in there for me but he actually waited so he could get it out for me too. What a sweetheart! Or when I was crying in my car (as you do) and this kind man motioned for me to roll down my window and asked me with sincere concern if I was alright. And so on and so forth.

I’ve tried very hard not to be resentful (which isn’t easy!) and let the negative eclipse the positive. And these seemingly small acts of kindness from men have helped tremendously to that end. Even tho these instances were not as “forceful” as the negative experiences, they have been more profound and meaningful to me, you know? 

Like Willy Shakes wrote in _The Merchant of Venice_, “How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world”. 

I try to make kindness matter more to me than cruelty/ugliness and endeavor to let it mark me the deepest. It ain't easy and a constant battle, but I keep fighting.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Some men may not realize how much it happens because it doesn't happen when they are around, just to lone women.

I completely believe it goes on, but its never happened in my presence in the US. Egypt was a different matter. (not clear what the right response is to your wife being cat-called by armed military police.....)


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



uhtred said:


> Some men may not realize how much it happens because it doesn't happen when they are around, just to lone women.
> 
> I completely believe it goes on, but its never happened in my presence in the US. Egypt was a different matter. (not clear what the right response is to your wife being cat-called by armed military police.....)


I can't speak for any other women here but most of the stuff I described... other men were present and saw it happen. Like I said, these were in public places and on populated streets.

Not doubting that you haven't seen it, but nah... this isht happens in full view of other men.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



ConanHub said:


> I'm not patient enough to be a woman. Christ!!!


 NO ****!

Just curious how many of the women reading here practice their second amendment guarantee of their rights, where allowed? How many carry pepper spray or some other less than lethal alternative?

In a perfect world, neither one of those would be necessary, but we live in a far from perfect world. The use of deadly force requires a fear for your life or threat of serious injury. The pepper spray is not deadly force and would be an assault charge if unfounded, but I'd expect a judge wouldn't stand for sexual banter that could possibly be construed as assault itself. I'm sure a lawyer around here could fill in the specifics on less than lethal force parameters. Force equalizers take the size/strength disparity out of any situation. IMO everyone should be prepared to defend themselves and not count on a police response.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Rubix Cubed said:


> NO ****!
> 
> Just curious how many of the women reading here practice their second amendment guarantee of their rights where allowed? How many carry pepper spray or some other less than lethal alternative?
> 
> In a perfect world, neither one of those would be necessary, but we live in a far from perfect world. The use of deadly force requires a fear for your life or threat of serious injury. The pepper spray is not deadly force and would be an assault charge if unfounded, but I'd expect a judge wouldn't stand for sexual banter that could possibly be construed as assault itself. I'm sure a lawyer around here could fill in the specifics on less than lethal force parameters. Force equalizers take the size/strength disparity out of any situation. IMO everyone should be prepared to defend themselves and not count on a police response.


You do know that a person who conceals carry should not acknowledge it publicly? Right?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> See I always made that point too, that unless men were being cat called by much larger gay men, they can’t really understand what we go through. And honestly the guys just ***** slapped me for saying that.


Ok, here's what we really need to do. Redo this video, but have some massively huge guys about 50' behind her. Whatever creeps do to her, these massively huge guys do 10x worse. So if it's a "Hey Mama!", then these guys go crazy with the sexy comments on the creep. If the creep walks next to her, then these guys crowd around the creep staring at every part of his body and make all kinds of lewd comments. That'd be awesome to see how the creeps react to all the "complements".


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> You do know that a person who conceals carry should not acknowledge it publicly? Right?


 
This is a completely *anonymous* forum and far more harmful things are admitted to than whether you carry a gun or not. I have had my CCW for years and you wouldn't know who I was or that I was carrying if I was standing right next to you. That being said most people who do know me IRL would more likely assume that I do carry than I don't.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I find it very strange that I haven't seen it. I really haven't - we're not talking about subtle stuff here, but clear harassment, cat calls etc. Just hasn't happened around me.

Are there some locations / situations where its more common, and I don't go to those? The NY woman seemed to be on just normal streets. (I've spent a fair bit of time in New York, so its not a city by city issue) 

Have all the other men here seen this sort of behavior, or if not, is there some pattern to those who have or haven't? Are there women who haven't seen this? 






Curse of Millhaven said:


> I can't speak for any other women here but most of the stuff I described... other men were present and saw it happen. Like I said, these were in public places and on populated streets.
> 
> Not doubting that you haven't seen it, but nah... this isht happens in full view of other men.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



uhtred said:


> I find it very strange that I haven't seen it. I really haven't - we're not talking about subtle stuff here, but clear harassment, cat calls etc. Just hasn't happened around me.
> 
> Are there some locations / situations where its more common, and I don't go to those? The NY woman seemed to be on just normal streets. (I've spent a fair bit of time in New York, so its not a city by city issue)
> 
> Have all the other men here seen this sort of behavior, or if not, is there some pattern to those who have or haven't? Are there women who haven't seen this?


In thinking about this, I don’t recall seeing this occur when it wasn’t directed at me. It’s very targeted towards one woman at a time or a small group of women. But I don’t live in that big of a city either. 

I have seen other vile things. Like the time I saw a dude sitting in his car in broad daylight in a Walgreens parking lot, watching middle school aged girls on the street coming and going from a Starbucks. He was clearly wanking himself as he watched them. One would walk past and he would be clearly moving his hands vigorously on his lap. She would pass out of view and he would stop. Then another would come by and he would visually zero in on her and start wanking again. I watched this safely from my car for a few minutes to make sure this is what I was seeing. I went inside the store and told a manager there is a man masturbating in his car out front. The manager walked out there and knocked on the guys window and talked to him. I watched from inside the store. The guy had obviously put his **** away (or maybe he was just rubbing it through his pants the whole time) because when the manager came back he said the guy said he was just sitting there and didn’t seem to be doing anything wrong. So the creep got away with it. The manager even side eyed me as if I was the creep for accusing anyone of this.

One time a creepy adult followed my daughter and her friend from the park to my house. They were about 13 at the time. I was at work and my daughter called me from home and told me what happened. We had a dog at the time so I told her to lock all the doors and go upstairs with the dog (that dog would have ripped the throat out of any intruder if it came to that, my sweet but viciously protective border collie). I called 911 and headed home at the same time. The police got there before I did and the girls were afraid to open the door for them so the police waited until I got there. The girls told them what happened and described the guy. No one saw or heard anything after that so we hoped it was just a creep who didn’t do more than follow them but now that he knew where my daughter lived I sent her to stay with some cousins for a couple of weeks, just in case.

Something most men probably don’t realize is that the moment a girl enters puberty, ADULT men begin leering at her immediately. If you have a daughter, ask her yourself when was the first time this occurred. It’s very confusing for us when it begins happening because the men do not make any secret of it, they look you directly in the eye and burn through your soul with their creepy intentions. Of course they do this directly TO her and don’t make cat calls and such, because the creeps know not to draw attention to themselves when they do this to a child. When it began happening to me I was so immature and naive that I was like, does this old man think I’m going to “like” him? I could not place it as predatory because I didn’t understand what that meant back then and it literally seemed like these creeps were doing some form of “flirting” with me. I recall a few times this happening with a man who was the husband of one of my moms friends and I felt sorry for his wife, I felt as if the guy was trying to act the same as boys my own age would act if they wanted to be my boyfriend or something. I know that doesn’t make much sense but I had no other context to put this in. I remember considering saying something to my mom but I didn’t think she would believe me. Of course now I know this had happened to her and most every other woman on earth too and of course she would believe me! But when you are a child and you basically have no choice but to trust adults and you don’t realize that adult men are sometimes ****ing creeps, you don’t understand what is happening.

This is a small percentage of men, but they end up creeping on every girl/woman at one time or another, so while most men have no idea this is happening, every girl knows it.

My friends and I would sometimes talk about how weird and confusing it is that adult men are like this. In our innocence we would speculate on what the hell these guys wanted from us, why are they doing this? We could not come up with any answers.

But we did learn what the intent was eventually, and this is how every girl learns how to use her intuition about questionable men.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Rubix Cubed said:


> NO ****!
> 
> Just curious how many of the women reading here practice their second amendment guarantee of their rights, where allowed? How many carry pepper spray or some other less than lethal alternative?
> 
> In a perfect world, neither one of those would be necessary, but we live in a far from perfect world. The use of deadly force requires a fear for your life or threat of serious injury. The pepper spray is not deadlym force and would be an assault charge if unfounded, but I'd expect a judge wouldn't stand for sexual banter that could possibly be construed as assault itself. I'm sure a lawyer around here could fill in the specifics on less than lethal force parameters. Force equalizers take the size/strength disparity out of any situation. IMO everyone should be prepared to defend themselves and not count on a police response.


No, and I don’t see how I could possibly pepper spray or shoot a guy who was verbally harassing me? I mean, if a woman did that men would riot about how it’s not illegal to talk to someone and the woman was the one who should be arrested. 

We don’t have them anymore but we used to have hoards of men here who literally told us to shut the **** up about this issue and just take the “compliment” that was directed at us. 

I think most men imagine their own lives and think of a time when they saw a pretty lady and just said “hey cutie” and they think that is what we are talking about. They hear us complaining about it and think what is your problem it was just a guy showing interest in you.

Again I’m really thankful that that is not how this conversation is going here this time and you guys are actually hearing us and understanding the predicament we are in.

Unfortunately you are still guys and guys handle other men with violence when they need to. Women don’t typically have that option so we can’t think like you do about it.

Some of our lovely TAM women have guns and are trained fighters so they might be ready and prepared for violence more like a man would be but she is still significantly disadvantaged compared to a man on man fight.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> I have seen other vile things. Like the time I saw a dude sitting in his car in broad daylight in a Walgreens parking lot, watching middle school aged girls on the street coming and going from a Starbucks. …….


Oh boy, yea.

When I was a senior in high school I walked to school though a several acre field. Usually it about 5 to 10 of us girls would walk together. On one day I was walking by myself. Some man driving some kind of heavy equipment started flowing me, driving very slowly. He was jacking off all the while. I was upset. Nothing ever happened about it.

When I was about 26, I was driving somewhere with my mother in the car. Some guy started following us in his car. He was clearly jacking off. I pulled off into a parking lot thinking he would just continue driving off. But instead he followed us, drove up very lose jacking off. It because very clear that he had no pants on.

Then there was that time. I was in the US Army. The Barrack was a 4 story building with women on the first 2 floors and men on the top 2 floors. I was walking behind the building to the swimming pool that was in a rec area near the barracks. I looked up there was some guy standing in the window of his room, stark naked, jacking off. There were always some guys on duty at the front desk of the barracks. I told them what the guy was doing. They got on the intercom and, using his name, announced that he needed to stop jacking off in the window and put some cloths on. Again nothing really happened except a lot of the guys in the barracks thought it was hilarious that he was called out on the intercom for everyone to hear.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Four pages of example after example after example of men acting like pigs.

Not surprised.

I won't even add in all the crap I've been subjected to or seen my whole life or it would be pages and pages. But I do remember one time I had run to 7-11 to pick up something and was back in my car in the parking lot getting ready to back out when this crappy looking van pulls up on my passenger side. I look over as he opens the door (I was always on the lookout for idiots who would dare to ding the doors of my sports car) and here I see this fool sliding down from the driver's seat and his shorts (with incredibly wide leg holes) have ridden up to his groin as he slid down, conveniently allowing his junk to hang out in full view literally *right* in my passenger side window. What a douche nozzle.

My windows were open (it was summer) and I actually started laughing hysterically at how utterly ridiculous this feeb was. He sure didn't get the response he was hoping for and he slunk into the store while I pulled out, still laughing out loud.

I blame all this aggressive, nasty, pervert behavior on testosterone. I always have, I always will.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> *No, and I don’t see how I could possibly pepper spray or shoot a guy who was verbally harassing me?* I mean, if a woman did that men would riot about how it’s not illegal to talk to someone and the woman was the one who should be arrested.
> 
> We don’t have them anymore but we used to have hoards of men here who literally told us to shut the **** up about this issue and just take the “compliment” that was directed at us.
> 
> ...


re: The first bolded sentence: My disclaimer here is that I am a 2nd amendment supporter and have studied it meticulously for many years, but that is all I am. Not a cop, lawyer, gun dealer or even a hunter. 
You have to be in fear for your or someone else's life or severe bodily injury to use deadly force a.k.a.shoot someone. That is a very personal, very subjective process with a broad range, but it still has to be reasonable to a judge and jury. So, in short, you probably won't feel true fear of your life over words. That being said if I tell someone"I'm gonna shoot you" or "I'm going to beat their ass so bad their great-grandkids will still feel it" I will likely get an *assault* charge (words). If I actually do it then I get at least an *assault and battery* charge (words and action). So if some stranger on the street told you "He was gonna **** the hell out of you" IMO that would be deserving of a pepper spray shot to the face. If he grabbed you by the arm after saying the same thing that would show intent and be deserving of being shot. 




> *Unfortunately you are still guys and guys handle other men with violence when they need to. Women don’t typically have that option so we can’t think like you do about it.*


 Guys are the ones harassing you so thinking like a guy in your response would be beneficial. Guys aren't generally born thinking like they do when it comes to aggression, it is learned behavior.

All that said my suggestions of "force equalizers" are just as much for the frame of mind that they put you in as well as their practicality when needed. If you are more secure in your being from having a defensive weapon then that will exude in how you carry yourself, which in itself can cut down the aggressive chatter, and even if it doesn't you will see it as only the annoyance that it is because you can now actually do something to stop it if it went past words. Women make up a large sector of recent CCW classes by the way, so it's not anything that needs to be thought of as a huge monumental challenge to overcome.
I'm not trying to and won't debate the 2nd amendment on this thread ( more than happy to where appropriate) so do not want it to devolve to that. I just wanted to point out an option to some women that this problem behavior is obviously a big and ongoing problem for. 
https://ammo.com/articles/womans-self-defense-guide-concealed-carry


.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

@Rubix Cubed

I know you sincerely mean everything you are saying. But if it were that easy, women would have already taken care of this problem and men would know they were going to face physical consequences if they harass us. It just doesn’t work this way. Making any type of aggressive stance against a man verbally harassing me is going to put ME in immediate danger, not him.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> @Rubix Cubed
> 
> I know you sincerely mean everything you are saying. But if it were that easy, women would have already taken care of this problem and men would know they were going to face physical consequences if they harass us. It just doesn’t work this way. Making any type of aggressive stance against a man verbally harassing me is going to put ME in immediate danger, not him.


I think most of the guys throwing comments are looking for any kind of reaction--positive or negative--and ignoring them is likely the best strategy. Give them no feedback. They're like the barkers who stand outside a business trying to get you inside.

If a person in a similar situation were to retaliate, even with the scary encounters, I don't think it would end well. First off, there's no telling what would happen in the moment. And second, I don't think it would hold up in court. Maybe if they had the video, but without the video the creep would just lie by saying he was walking and got pepper sprayed out of nowhere.

The scary encounters were anxious to watch. Even though I'm not really ever in that kind of situation, I can certainly empathize and imagine scenarios where that could be me. What would I do if a huge guy was walking next to me like that? I guess I'd duck into a store or try to find someone who I thought might be sympathetic to my situation. If it happened all the time like in that video, I'd probably have a can of pepper spray in my hand at all times. But as a guy, the chances for me are so low it's almost like 0 percent, so in practice it's not really worth it for me to take precautions. I can hardly recall any instances in my whole life where I might have needed protection.

Not all guys are like this, but these guys give all guys a bad name. One thing guys can do is to call out other guys when they do this--friends, relatives, coworkers, etc. Even if you're having a beer with a buddy in a bar and he makes a lewd comment about a woman, make it clear you're not receptive to it. Even if it's just giving him a look, you can let him know that wasn't cool.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> @Rubix Cubed
> 
> I know you sincerely mean everything you are saying. But if it were that easy, women would have already taken care of this problem and men would know they were going to face physical consequences if they harass us. It just doesn’t work this way. Making any type of aggressive stance against a man verbally harassing me is going to put ME in immediate danger, not him.


Exactly this. Adding weapons to this is going to mean someone could get killed and it’s just as likely to be you. A polite brush off has escalated things for me. 

Interestingly other men, good men, can help by just being present. 
I’ve had men come and just silently stand beside me and it’s made creepy guys leave. 

If you want to help, keep your eyes open, call out men you see doing this (don’t “boys will be boys” brush it off) and listen to women who tell you it’s happening.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> @Rubix Cubed
> 
> I know you sincerely mean everything you are saying. But if it were that easy, women would have already taken care of this problem and men would know they were going to face physical consequences if they harass us. It just doesn’t work this way. Making any type of aggressive stance against a man verbally harassing me is going to put ME in immediate danger, not him.


Oh so true of several nasty incidents I had to endure over the years. When this jerk groped me and tried to kiss me, I have had experience I never asked for or deserved. Those experiences showed me to speak up or take action when a window of opportunity showed up to prevent something worse. As soon as this jerk started his assault, I knew my renters were home because all their cars were there when I parked and I didn't hear any cars leave. He didn't kiss me on the lips,but my cheeks and neck were not spared. I could have stomped him, kicked him in the balls or even pinched his balls, but I am no match physically to any man with my height and my weight. 

I used what I have the best which is my voice. I can truly yell and it is very hard to shut a screaming woman up when you least expect it. That truly startled him because he thought I was too nice to speak up. Dumb fool that he is. I started opening my mouth about perverts harassing me since I was around 7 and the feeling of shame was replaced with speak up girl or you will get hurt even more. My parents were wonderful and they believed and protected me when I was too young to not be able to defend myself. 

This fool was not dealing with a child. I may be little in stature, but experience makes me mighty when you need your wit to not fail you!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Bibi1031 said:


> Oh so true of several nasty incidents I had to endure over the years. When this jerk groped me and tried to kiss me, I have had experience I never asked for or deserved. Those experiences showed me to speak up or take action when a window of opportunity showed up to prevent something worse. As soon as this jerk started his assault, I knew my renters were home because all their cars were there when I parked and I didn't hear any cars leave. He didn't kiss me on the lips,but my cheeks and neck were not spared. I could have stomped him, kicked him in the balls or even pinched his balls, but I am no match physically to any man with my height and my weight.
> 
> I used what I have the best which is my voice. I can truly yell and it is very hard to shut a screaming woman up when you least expect it. That truly startled him because he thought I was too nice to speak up. Dumb fool that he is. I started opening my mouth about perverts harassing me since I was around 7 and the feeling of shame was replaced with speak up girl or you will get hurt even more. My parents were wonderful and they believed and protected me when I was too young to not be able to defend myself.
> 
> This fool was not dealing with a child. I may be little in stature, but experience makes me mighty when you need your wit to not fail you!


But it’s still true, as you know, that unless other people are around who will hear and actually help you, screaming your head off doesn’t change a damn thing.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> But it’s still true, as you know, that unless other people are around who will hear and actually help you, screaming your head off doesn’t change a damn thing.


Very true. This man was no stranger and I was not in an isolated place. That is a big reason why I don't live alone in an isolated area. As women, especially ones born with targets on our back for perverts to prey on, learn early on to pay attention at all times to our surroundings.

My earliest recollection of being molested by an uncle was around age 3. That is awfully young as well as confusing and scary as hell. I have other sisters. None of my sisters were targets of this sort of aggression when they were kids.

I was the unlucky Target on several occasions. It got to the point that by age 7 I knew I was in real danger. I am pretty sure I am not alone in this. Most of us can recall being victimized like this at a very young age, and the fight to survive with the least amount of damage inflicted upon us has been life long.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



uhtred said:


> I find it very strange that I haven't seen it. I really haven't - we're not talking about subtle stuff here, but clear harassment, cat calls etc. Just hasn't happened around me.
> 
> Are there some locations / situations where its more common, and I don't go to those? The NY woman seemed to be on just normal streets. (I've spent a fair bit of time in New York, so its not a city by city issue)
> 
> Have all the other men here seen this sort of behavior, or if not, is there some pattern to those who have or haven't? Are there women who haven't seen this?


I saw this kind of behavior a lot more as a child and adolescent. When I wasn't big enough to be considered a threat, the cockroaches were bold especially if there was a group of them. Once I got some size and a reputation, I took guys out that were considered tough like they weren't there, the cockroaches didn't do it when I was around unless they didn't know me and then they learned quick.

Apparently these idiots get off on being able to have a potential victim be vulnerable to them because they are simply bigger and stronger. Wastes of skin in my opinion.


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## .339971 (Sep 12, 2019)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I saw that video sometime ago. It isn't surprising at all.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> But it’s still true, as you know, that unless other people are around who will hear and actually help you, screaming your head off doesn’t change a damn thing.


The really sad thing is that women shouldn't have to scream, scratch, knee the boys, or fight ANYONE off.
What the hell is wrong with these guys.
That's not alpha -- that is just being an *******.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> @Rubix Cubed
> 
> I know you sincerely mean everything you are saying. But if it were that easy, women would have already taken care of this problem and men would know they were going to face physical consequences if they harass us. It just doesn’t work this way. *Making any type of aggressive stance against a man verbally harassing me is going to put ME in immediate danger, not him.*


This, women well know it and have seen it happen.

The problem with fighting back is it almost always results in escalation. I am a woman who is strong and fit, trained in martial arts, yada, yada … however if I do not immobilize a creep with my first move, I am toast and I know it. *That’s the fear … if I don’t land the perfect first move, punch or kick then I am going to get seriously hurt.
*
The answer to that fear, for me, is a taser. I live in an urban area and must be out at night as I have dogs that need to walk. I carry a taser, it looks like a night-stick (can be used as a club) and it’s visible. If I feel threatened by some creep’s jibber-jabber, I press the button on the taser (makes a very loud electric zap noise) and most creep’s walk away. If they don’t, they get tasered, which puts them on the ground.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



jlg07 said:


> The really sad thing is that women shouldn't have to scream, scratch, knee the boys, or fight ANYONE off.
> What the hell is wrong with these guys.
> That's not alpha -- that is just being an *******.


It has to do with power or overpowering someone weaker in any form, shape, or fashion. The saying that power corrupts is very true. 

Many people in power abuse their use of such power. Human nature has some very dark sides. Those dark shades are NOT gender exclusive.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

When I was in my 20s and 30s, I regularly had trouble. My two most memorable incidents were when 3 men in the Frankfurt railroad station started to chase my friend and me through one of the tunnels, all the time screaming, 'You don't have to be afraid,' and when I had a long redeye bus ride and was trapped against the window in the pitch black by the man next to me who was trying to grope me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> Not all guys are like this, but these guys give all guys a bad name. One thing guys can do is to call out other guys when they do this--friends, relatives, coworkers, etc. Even if you're having a beer with a buddy in a bar and he makes a lewd comment about a woman, make it clear you're not receptive to it. Even if it's just giving him a look, you can let him know that wasn't cool.


In discussions like this, the above is important to remember. Not all guys do these things. Not even most guys.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



alte Dame said:


> When I was in my 20s and 30s, I regularly had trouble. My two most memorable incidents were when 3 men in the Frankfurt railroad station started to chase my friend and me through one of the tunnels, all the time screaming, 'You don't have to be afraid,' and when I had a long redeye bus ride and was trapped against the window in the pitch black by the man next to me who was trying to grope me.


It seems that creeps frequent places like this. My take on it is that the environment makes it easy for them to cop a feel and otherwise physically harass women since it's too crowded, sometimes too dark, for others to see what going on.

I've had guys grope me on crowded buses and trains. There have be a few times when I was able to do something back.

I was about 25, walking is a shoulder to shoulder crowd in Munich Germany at the October Fest. Some creepy old guy walked into me and grabbed my crotch. I got so pissed, I started yelling and beating on the guy. He looked at me like I was an annoying gnat buzzing around his head. He was about 5'6" but build like a weight lifter. My beating on him seemed to amuse him. And everyone else walking by looked at me like I was nuts. I was with a date, once we got out of the crowd he asked me what that was all about. I told him and that was the end of that.

Another time, this is when I was in high school. I was on yet one more crowed bus in Italy coming home from school. One more creepy old fart started feeling me up and groping me. So this one time I reached down and held the guys hand. I think the creep though I hit pay dirt. I was wearing high heels. Yes in Italy in those days high school girls wore designer suits and high heel to school. Anyway, holding his hand, I turned to took at him. He had this **** eating grin on his face. Once I was 100% I know which guy was feeling me up on the bus, I ground my high heal into the arch of his foot stomping as hard as I could. Boy did that feel good. It still feels good to this day (sorry I guess I have a sadistic streak). He started screaming and yelling. I said in Italian something like "Maybe from now on you will keep your filthy hand off girls." By then everyone on the bus was look at me and him. The women on the bus broke out laughing and cheering. I kid you not. They all knew what happened. They had all been through this.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Bibi1031 said:


> It has to do with power or overpowering someone weaker in any form, shape, or fashion. The saying that power corrupts is very true.
> 
> Many people in power abuse their use of such power. Human nature has some very dark sides. Those dark shades are NOT gender exclusive.


I agree with you, but this isn't ruling the universe, or crushing an opposing country type stuff.
This is a guy ACTING on the fact, in a very inappropriate way, that he is attracted to you.
I have read that rape is more about power and control than sex, but still....

YES there is evil in the world, and even smaller and larger versions, but it still sucks to do that.
NOBODY should have to go through life being afraid like this (and yes, I do realize the world is like this -- just ranting against it I guess.).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> Not all guys are like this, but these guys give all guys a bad name. One thing guys can do is to call out other guys when they do this--friends, relatives, coworkers, etc. Even if you're having a beer with a buddy in a bar and he makes a lewd comment about a woman, make it clear you're not receptive to it. Even if it's just giving him a look, you can let him know that wasn't cool.


Creeps should live in fear instead of causing any.

I have pretty open hostility to predators.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



ConanHub said:


> Creeps should live in fear instead of causing any.
> 
> I have pretty open hostility to predators.


I think creeps are fully aware that decent men will cause them trouble. That’s why they wait until we are alone.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> In discussions like this, the above is important to remember. Not all guys do these things. Not even most guys.


Absolutely. The creeps are a very small fraction of all men.

Unfortunately it’s kind of like how only a tiny fraction of cells can become cancerous and still kill or greatly harm you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> In discussions like this, the above is important to remember. Not all guys do these things. Not even most guys.


Also, again I’m just so happy that we don’t have men telling us we deserve and want it, or conflating our actions between when we feel creeped out and when we are actually doing some kind of partner hunting (he’s only a creep if he’s not cute). These guys on this thread are so supportive that I feel amazing about sharing this stuff. Like I actually feel maybe the tides have or will or can change, at least in the US (where I think most of these guy posters in this thread are from except @Marduk are from). Makes me feel more than ever grateful to the decent men because that’s the only people who can band with us and protect us and our kids.

Group hug.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> I think creeps are fully aware that decent men will cause them trouble. That’s why they wait until we are alone.


100% Agree with you on this one.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Widespread surveillance is becoming ever more common in cities in the US. it may do a lot to reduce this problem - though it will cause others. We are not far from a situation where if a woman is harassed she can go to the police and they can pull the video from the area cameras to find out what happened and who did it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

this thread reminded me of an incident that happened a girl i was dating a couple years ago...

she lives in NYC, and just walking down the street she had some guy come up to her and start harassing her. asking for her number, etc. it went on for three or four minutes, and then suddenly i heard her scream, and a muffled thud. i was on the phone with her the whole time, and was telling her to get to a crowded street. well, as it turned out, she was a pretty tough cookie. right as she was about to get to a street with people, he grabbed her arm and tried to pull her back. by this point, she was quite pissed off, so she punched him as hard as she could. it caught him completely off guard and she knocked him on his sorry ass, and then took off down the street. 

she moved in with us for about half a year before she eventually got really homesick and moved back to NYC. i still chat with her from time to time, she is doing pretty well for herself. 

one of the things she mentioned was that the people down here all seem so nice compared to up there. i think its a big city thing... for some reason, big cities seem to have plenty of ass hats. she was all geared up for a fight when she came down to north carolina. she expected the farmer town that i live in to be pretty hostile because of the stereotype of racist ********. after hearing the incident while she was on the phone with me, i understood the fear. its one of the reasons i dont like big cities...


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



OnTheFly said:


> High five, sooooo true, sister!!
> 
> Kinda like how there are so few actual radical feminists, but their destructive effects on society are felt by all.
> 
> Couldn't agree more! thx!




This makes me sad and disappointed.

I mean is it really necessary to come into a thread where women are sharing incredibly harrowing experiences and be spiteful and mocking?

Wilson came to the Ladies Lounge to ask us if the video he shared was typical and we answered his question honestly by sharing scary, painful events from our lives (which isn’t easy, by the way). It felt like an earnest question and everyone heretofore has been supportive and empathetic.

Why would you feel inspired to come into such a thread and be sarcastic and call one of the women who shared “sister” in a derisive way? And your example of “radical feminists” being destructive to society is not even analogous with @Faithful Wife’s post. 

I'm pretty sure her post is saying that it’s a very small fraction of men who aggressively harass women but unfortunately that small fraction can harm and even possibly kill you, which sadly is very true. I actually knew a girl who was raped and murdered. She was a pretty college student who should have had a bright future; her killer was never caught and brought to justice.

This is a serious topic and it’s important to discuss it. It would be nice if we could all share here in safety without having to fear being mocked. Especially when our opinions and experiences are being specifically requested.

And this thread is not bashing men (I even made sure to point out the kindness random men have extended to me), so I’m not sure why you would respond in the way that you have.

I would encourage you to reconsider posting in anger/frustration, especially in a sensitive topic such as this. We don’t all have to agree or even like one another, but it would be nice if we could at least be respectful and civil.

I hope you take this post in the vein it is intended and do not respond by being mean. It’s not my intention to upset or offend you and I don't enjoy confrontation, but I had to speak my mind even tho my heart is pounding and I'm anxious. I really hope you understand.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Curse of Millhaven said:


> It’s not my intention to upset or offend you....


I appreciate that.



Curse of Millhaven said:


> .....but I had to speak my mind...


I did too.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Is it somewhat like this in an office environment, relative to the situation? That is, I'm guessing there aren't as many rude comments, but I've heard that women get (or used to get) a lot of comments on their appearance, excessive small talk in the elevator, people coming by their desk etc. A long time ago I had a job where my desk was near an attractive women and I remember a lot of guys coming by to chat or even just walking by her desk several times a day.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> Is it somewhat like this in an office environment, relative to the situation? That is, I'm guessing there aren't as many rude comments, but I've heard that women get (or used to get) a lot of comments on their appearance, excessive small talk in the elevator, people coming by their desk etc. A long time ago I had a job where my desk was near an attractive women and I remember a lot of guys coming by to chat or even just walking by her desk several times a day.


Well, I’m old so yes, it definitely used to be a thing at work. But it isn’t now, at least not where I work. People are jovial and nice to each other, and there’s no nonsense. There’s also not a feeling that we have to constantly watch we say or avoid each other. But most people where I work are married or partnered, and they don’t seem to be spending a lot of opposite sex one on one time. This seems to me to be because people are being appropriate with each other, not because they are afraid of false charges or anything.

My mom told me horror stories of being bullied and harassed by men in the workplace in her day. And that there was no one to report these idiots to because they were usually the boss and there was not what we currently call an HR department, or anyone safe to tell.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

It varies a lot by industry. Based on personal experience and discussions (so not solid data) Defense contractors have minimal problems (which is very surprising), while high tech industry can be extremely bad. 






wilson said:


> Is it somewhat like this in an office environment, relative to the situation? That is, I'm guessing there aren't as many rude comments, but I've heard that women get (or used to get) a lot of comments on their appearance, excessive small talk in the elevator, people coming by their desk etc. A long time ago I had a job where my desk was near an attractive women and I remember a lot of guys coming by to chat or even just walking by her desk several times a day.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> My mom told me horror stories of being bullied and harassed by men in the workplace in her day. And that there was no one to report these idiots to because they were usually the boss and there was not what we currently call an HR department, or anyone safe to tell.


I was listening to a interview with Nina Totenberg (a reporter who covers the Supreme Court), and she related a lot of similar incidents and said that's just the way it was. She said things like her boss would ask her to drive him home, and on the whole drive she'd be fending him off. Men would openly stare at her chest when she was doing interviews. Men in the office would ask her to sit on his lap. The show "Mad Men" (about 50's ad executives) showed a little of that as well. Yuk!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



OnTheFly said:


> I appreciate that.
> 
> 
> 
> I did too.


Feel free to open a thread to discuss radical feminists. I still have no idea how that topic relates to this one, or why you singled me out to bring it up here.

Please don’t thread jack.

Cheers.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> I was listening to a interview with Nina Totenberg (a reporter who covers the Supreme Court), and she related a lot of similar incidents and said that's just the way it was. She said things like her boss would ask her to drive him home, and on the whole drive she'd be fending him off. Men would openly stare at her chest when she was doing interviews. Men in the office would ask her to sit on his lap. The show "Mad Men" (about 50's ad executives) showed a little of that as well. Yuk!


But I have seen the other side of this. At one workplace we had a female colleague who loved to stand in the middle of the office and play with her breasts. In full view of passersby, walking past our ground floor offices. 

So inappropriate behaviour can go both ways.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> Is it somewhat like this in an office environment, relative to the situation? That is, I'm guessing there aren't as many rude comments, but I've heard that women get (or used to get) a lot of comments on their appearance, excessive *small talk in the elevator, people coming by their desk *etc. A long time ago I had a job where my desk was near an attractive women and I remember a lot of guys coming by to chat or even just walking by her desk several times a day.


I don't see how TALKING like the bolded is a problem, if just casual conversation. IF it turns inappropriate, THAT is where to draw the line. Saying you look nice today is quite different than saying "wow your ass looks great in those pants". 
However, in the work environment of today, I wouldn't even say that someone looks nice. Just keep it light, pleasant conversation -- NO sexual references. It's a shame -- if people couldn't come by a desk to talk, it would be a pretty dismal work environment.
I used to do that all the time years ago with my department secretary -- just stop by for talking. We became good friends -- so good, we actually got married! Even THEN I didn't make sexual innuendo/etc. -- just talking and becoming friends. BIG difference to what went on in the video.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



jlg07 said:


> I don't see how TALKING like the bolded is a problem, if just casual conversation. IF it turns inappropriate, THAT is where to draw the line. Saying you look nice today is quite different than saying "wow your ass looks great in those pants".
> However, in the work environment of today, I wouldn't even say that someone looks nice. Just keep it light, pleasant conversation -- NO sexual references. It's a shame -- if people couldn't come by a desk to talk, it would be a pretty dismal work environment.
> I used to do that all the time years ago with my department secretary -- just stop by for talking. We became good friends -- so good, we actually got married! Even THEN I didn't make sexual innuendo/etc. -- just talking and becoming friends. BIG difference to what went on in the video.


I agree. It was the creeps who ruined it for everyone. They don't come out and explicitly say "nice boobs". Instead they say "nice sweater" while looking right at her boobs. The creeps come by a women's desk multiple times a day with contrived excuses and chat about whatever because it makes them feel good to be near a beautiful woman. So then when a regular guy is just making a benign comment or just trying to be friendly to a coworker (who just happens to be a woman), the women can't tell the difference and doesn't know if that guy is going to be another workplace stalker or not.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

So I know this may seem off or odd, but it really isn’t very important to us to hear that we look nice today. And I don’t want it to get weird or anything, but can’t we just not worry about how each other looks so much? I know, I know, omg, what have we become that we can’t even compliment each other!?! But really...is it even important? When you are telling someone they look nice, are you trying to extract a “thank you” from them? Does it matter to their job if they look nice? Would it harm anyone or anything if we just didn’t make such a deal out of how each other looks?

This is a difficult concept to express, because I’m just talking about work, and because it is a new way to think about it.

Just an anecdote. I have a female superior who does not like flattery. Sincere compliments are tolerated but not really welcomed. This is not because she’s weird about it at work, she is weird about it in her life, too. She is very in charge, she is very confident, and she honestly does not want people to go out of their way to compliment her, it’s just how she is. 

I learned a lot by working for her and watching her over the years. And it finally dawned on me that it just really should not matter what we look like at work, and that this doesn’t have to make us weird eunuch type people. It’s just that at work, there’s no reason for it and, you can still be kind, admire people for other attributes, and just keep it to yourself that you think this person looks nice. 

At work.

In the world, I have no issue with paying lots of compliments to my friends if they look great, my mom basically expects me to notice if she got a hair cut or color or is wearing something new so I scan her over every time I see her. My partners get constant compliments and also harassed and groped by me. There are different rules and reasons in the rest of life.

Is it so hard to imagine that we don’t really need to hear those compliments at work, without thinking that is such a hardship to not do it? I’m just offering a new view of it.

Also, my boss lady is also a friend to the extent that we occasionally spend time outside the office together. I don’t tell her she looks nice even if she does, because she’s still weird like that, in work and out. I can read people and it’s clear she doesn’t want to hear it, period.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I think comments on someones appearance at work are not appropriate unless they directly relate to the person's job. Just too easy to accidentally or intentionally cross lines.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



uhtred said:


> I think comments on someones appearance at work are not appropriate unless they directly relate to the person's job. Just too easy to accidentally or intentionally cross lines.


Instead of “too easy to cross lines” can you just think about it like “because how we look is irrelevant to the job”. The first way is still just more pushing against each other.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> So I know this may seem off or odd, but it really isn’t very important to us to hear that we look nice today. And I don’t want it to get weird or anything, but can’t we just not worry about how each other looks so much? I know, I know, omg, what have we become that we can’t even compliment each other!?! But really...is it even important? When you are telling someone they look nice, are you trying to extract a “thank you” from them? Does it matter to their job if they look nice? Would it harm anyone or anything if we just didn’t make such a deal out of how each other looks?


I wonder, do men at work ever tell another guy at work.. "You look great today. Love that sweater!" :wink2:


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

Hey Elegirl, yes I have said "Looking sharp" if justified to a guy.
I worked with a guy who had his own personal "tie Tuesday" -- he would always wear a tie on Tuesdays. I very often acknowledged if he had a cool or different tie that day.

I get that it has nothing to do with your job or your ability on the job. To ME, it is simple common courtesy -- just an acknowledged on my part that I recognize the effort you put in that day.

Now, since virtually everything is considered sexual harassment (via the various training we go through), I haven't done this for the past 2-3 years. Shame, but that's how it is anymore.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



jlg07 said:


> Hey Elegirl, yes I have said "Looking sharp" if justified to a guy.
> I worked with a guy who had his own personal "tie Tuesday" -- he would always wear a tie on Tuesdays. I very often acknowledged if he had a cool or different tie that day.
> 
> I get that it has nothing to do with your job or your ability on the job. To ME, it is simple common courtesy -- just an acknowledged on my part that I recognize the effort you put in that day.
> ...


Does it have to be a shame though? I know we all believe we are being “nice” when we compliment someone, but is that type of niceness actually going to harm anyone if we do NOT say it? 

I’m thinking of it like this. Let’s say that no one ever tells me again that I look nice today at work. Would I feel some kind of loss? No, not at all. Which is not the same as saying I am harmed if they do say it. If someone tells me I look nice, I do not think they have bad intentions, I don’t think they mean it in a sexual way, I don’t think they are harassing me, and I’m not being harmed in anyway. But it also does not harm me in anyway if they do NOT say it. The niceness someone may try to extend to me that way is not some kind of big important thing to me.

Now let’s say a woman is whining that no one ever tells her she looks good anymore at work. As if she is harmed if they don’t say it. Wouldn’t that seem weird, like, does she come to work to get verbal affirmation of how she looks from co workers? Or does she not have any self esteem and relies on people telling her she looks good in order to feel good about herself? Wouldn’t it seem like wow, you should not be so worried about how people think you look, that’s just weird. And if she doesn’t get told she looks good at work, is she not going to be able to do her job effectively?

So when people say it is a shame that they can’t be nice and offer compliments at work, it just makes me think well, if being nice is important to you, isn’t there something else you could say that is nice that doesn’t have to do with how they look? If it’s just giving the compliment that is important to you, it seems it shouldn’t be that difficult to come up with a sincere compliment about the job they are doing. And maybe understand that hearing that compliment would mean more to us than hearing we look good.

Again, I am not saying I ever feel harmed by a compliment about how I look at work. And women I know do not complain about it. We aren’t all scheming about how we can make every word into a sexual harassment claim. I’m just pointing out that we also don’t feel a loss if no one mentions how we look. So no one should think that we would feel any loss if people don’t pay that kind of compliment at work, we really will not feel sad if you don’t do that, it’s ok not to do it and it’s not expected. 

Compliments to your spouse, date, friends, etc. are a different thing and can be very personal and special. And I would certainly feel a guy wasn’t that into me if I was dating him and he never gave any compliments. 

But at work, I don’t expect them and I never wish I was getting them if I’m not.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> I wonder, do men at work ever tell another guy at work.. "You look great today. Love that sweater!" :wink2:


We do say man, that's a nice suit!
And sometimes "I like that shirt".

Or tie.

So, at least what I've seen all over, for 36 yrs, is yes, sometimes. It does happen.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> Does it have to be a shame though? I know we all believe we are being “nice” when we compliment someone, but is that type of niceness actually going to harm anyone if we do NOT say it?
> 
> I’m thinking of it like this. Let’s say that no one ever tells me again that I look nice today at work. Would I feel some kind of loss? No, not at all. Which is not the same as saying I am harmed if they do say it. If someone tells me I look nice, I do not think they have bad intentions, I don’t think they mean it in a sexual way, I don’t think they are harassing me, and I’m not being harmed in anyway. But it also does not harm me in anyway if they do NOT say it. The niceness someone may try to extend to me that way is not some kind of big important thing to me.
> 
> ...


Just to be contrary 😉😉 some women do fish for compliments by saying how do you like this dress, etc. or similar.

I always think before I speak and answer generically. 

And it does happen, some wear blouses and slacks, and dresses so tight the eye is caught for a second. Now, I quickly look away and surely don't look.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

When a man compliments another man, there is no sexual or flirting subcontext. It's just a complement for the sake of the complement.

When a man complements a woman, it might be just a compliment, it might be flirting, or it might be a bit of both. I think that's where lots of the problems come in. 

If complements were just complements, then I would expect men to complement men and women about equally, but I don't feel that's the case. I feel that men give women a lot more complements than they do men. This leads me to believe there is some sort of flirting component in many of the complements given to women.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Just to be contrary 😉😉 some women do fish for compliments by saying how do you like this dress, etc. or similar.
> 
> I always think before I speak and answer generically.
> 
> And it does happen, some wear blouses and slacks, and dresses so tight the eye is caught for a second. Now, I quickly look away and surely don't look.


That’s fair, and we all have different places of work and different ways of seeing it.

Let me try to say this another way. I have been that girl, and I’m also a huge flirt and therefore I have also been drawn to lovely girls in the work place and have slavered over them. I could get away with it usually because they didn’t think I was into girls. This used to be part of the fun of going to work for me. Having worked in restaurants and retail in my teens and early 20’s, it was a flirt fest all day long, and yep, a lot of them hooked up with each other, too. It was all basically college aged kids and we all drank and smoked pot with each other after work. I loved that time of my life.

I know that most work places and campuses that are full of young people, this is still happening. Or at least my two adult kids experienced that and all of their friends too, and they were and are all great kids. It was part of their life, too. 

But now even my kids are beyond that age and are in “real” jobs. They do not complain about the new rules we have in the workplace, they would not want that now either. It’s exhausting.

So for many years even after I moved into appropriate behavior at work, I still always went to see what the hot girl who wants attention was wearing every day. I wanted to compliment her because I like being around her, because when I open myself to that way of looking at her, she makes me tingly.

At some point I finally figured that out. I was still looking at her as if we did not work together, but we do work together. She liked my sincere attention and compliments, she expected them and thought it was innocent. But when I was honest with myself, it wasn’t actually completely innocent. I liked giving her compliments because it made her talk to me longer and being around her with my eyes glued in like that made me feel tingly. And when this hit me, I just got it all at once.

Since I work with her, it’s just not cool to do this at work, even if she doesn’t know it makes me tingly and even if she wouldn’t care.

If she left working at my company and I met her again outside of work, I would now be free to go back to letting her make me tingly. And if she doesn’t like my vibe, we won’t end up hanging out more.

I also have friends who I have never worked with who are attention seekers that way, and they love it when I get a little “rawr” at them. They also know there’s no sexual vibe between us, it’s flirt only so it’s consensual and understood. I love pouring compliments on her, literally about her ass, boobs, legs, hair, lips....I do understand how fun it is to soak a woman with sincere compliments because she is so ravishing that you can barely help yourself.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I think there is a bit of a subtle problem. Many people are find other people sexually attractive, and that can be a sort of undercurrent in many social interactions. I'm not talking anything necessarily blatant, but I expect you've met people its clear were attracted to you or vice versa. Maybe a bit of barely noticeable flirting. 

That can't happen at work because it can introduce all sort of potential bias. I find a lot of women attractive. So for me the cleanest way to avoid problems is to try to keep interactions "professional" at work. I don't mean unfriendly or anything, but stick entirely to topics I would also discuss with men. 

I'd never tell a guy his hair was an interesting color, or I liked his shirt (unless it has something especially interesting written on it).




Faithful Wife said:


> Instead of “too easy to cross lines” can you just think about it like “because how we look is irrelevant to the job”. The first way is still just more pushing against each other.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> But when I was honest with myself, it wasn’t actually completely innocent. I liked giving her compliments because it made her talk to me longer and being around her with my eyes glued in like that made me feel tingly. And when this hit me, I just got it all at once.


It's my belief that this is commonly the underlying context when men complement women. Not every time, but most times it's because interacting with an attractive woman feels good in-and-of-itself. Even if it doesn't lead anywhere, it can feel good and feel self validating to have an attractive women pay attention to you. The complement about clothing, hair, or whatever is just a contrived reason to create the interaction. For example, if two women of different attraction levels wore the same shirt, the more attractive woman would likely get many more complements about the shirt than the less attractive woman.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



uhtred said:


> I think there is a bit of a subtle problem. Many people are find other people sexually attractive, and that can be a sort of undercurrent in many social interactions. I'm not talking anything necessarily blatant, but I expect you've met people its clear were attracted to you or vice versa. Maybe a bit of barely noticeable flirting.
> 
> That can't happen at work because it can introduce all sort of potential bias. I find a lot of women attractive. So for me the cleanest way to avoid problems is to try to keep interactions "professional" at work. I don't mean unfriendly or anything, but stick entirely to topics I would also discuss with men.
> 
> I'd never tell a guy his hair was an interesting color, or I liked his shirt (unless it has something especially interesting written on it).


A lot like my post above! I think we were writing at the same time and are saying the same thing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> It's my belief that this is commonly the underlying context when men complement women. Not every time, but most times it's because interacting with an attractive woman feels good in-and-of-itself. Even if it doesn't lead anywhere, it can feel good and feel self validating to have an attractive women pay attention to you. The complement about clothing, hair, or whatever is just a contrived reason to create the interaction. For example, if two women of different attraction levels wore the same shirt, the more attractive woman would likely get many more complements about the shirt than the less attractive woman.


I kind of disagree, only because there are men who don’t seem to ever go talk to the attention seeking girl, and they are simply not affected that way by her. Yet they are nice to everyone and may give anyone a sincere compliment. 

So I definitely think there are some who gravitate to the visual pleasure and others who truly seem to have blinders on. As a woman, I can tell if a man is looking at me “that way” or not, and many men simply do not (in my work place, none of them do). The ones who do look at you that way, it is quickly obvious and they are typically over complimenters.

It took me owning my own crap (because I was looking at some of them “that” way) to finally understand it. It’s obvious to me now when I’m being appropriate and I don’t veer from that anymore.

But I don’t think of it like I better not do that or I’ll get in trouble. It’s just, I don’t want to do that because it’s inappropriate.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> The complement about clothing, hair, or whatever is just a contrived reason to create the interaction.


This is true if the woman is not an older woman. I am now in my 60's and am - much to my amusement and bewilderment - pretty regularly complimented on my shoes by random men out in public. Yes, my shoes. It happens enough that I report it to my husband whenever it happens. Just last week at a baseball game, the men in our row told me they liked my shoes. (And no, my shoes aren't crazy, thought-provoking items. They are just what I consider nice shoes.)

In any event, these men aren't making comments to get into a conversation with a woman they are interested in. They just like my shoes.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> When a man compliments another man, there is no sexual or flirting subcontext. It's just a complement for the sake of the complement.
> 
> When a man complements a woman, it might be just a compliment, it might be flirting, or it might be a bit of both. I think that's where lots of the problems come in.
> 
> If complements were just complements, then I would expect men to complement men and women about equally, but I don't feel that's the case. I feel that men give women a lot more complements than they do men. This leads me to believe there is some sort of flirting component in many of the complements given to women.


Absolutely NOT true -- you obviously don't work where there is any significant number of gay men. All the training they have now ALSO talks about that -- a guy telling a guy they are looking good can ALSO be construed as sexual harassment.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> So I know this may seem off or odd, but it really isn’t very important to us to hear that we look nice today. And I don’t want it to get weird or anything, but can’t we just not worry about how each other looks so much? I know, I know, omg, what have we become that we can’t even compliment each other!?! *But really...is it even important?* When you are telling someone they look nice, are you trying to extract a “thank you” from them? Does it matter to their job if they look nice? Would it harm anyone or anything if we just didn’t make such a deal out of how each other looks?


Yes, the bolded is VERY important. Why is common courtesy such a lost thing in human interactions?

And NOT just for looks -- although I commented that way since that is what the thread was about. I also comment when folks have done a good job. And I also comment when they have have gone of vacation -- hoping they had a good time away from work. I also comment when they tell me about their kids doing something great -- NOT just about looks. Why is it this ONE thing is bad to say to someone? Yet we can't anymore -- because of course saying this is sexist or sexual or offensive. REALLY? WHY? Why is saying you look nice today, or you look sharp such a bad thing? It has NOTHING to do with their response to me -- I'm not looking for a Thank you or anything else. I live the way I think I should behave, and NOT because someone else wants it or expects it or thanks me. Why is a simple acknowledgement for someone taking the extra effort bad? I don't get it.

What the hell is wrong with people that being nice is a BAD thing? Look at our society where everything is so politically correct that even being nice has negative connotations? Any you wonder why the world is like it is in the past few decades?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



alte Dame said:


> This is true if the woman is not an older woman. I am now in my 60's and am - much to my amusement and bewilderment - pretty regularly complimented on my shoes by random men out in public. Yes, my shoes. It happens enough that I report it to my husband whenever it happens. Just last week at a baseball game, the men in our row told me they liked my shoes. (And no, my shoes aren't crazy, thought-provoking items. They are just what I consider nice shoes.)
> 
> In any event, these men aren't making comments to get into a conversation with a woman they are interested in. They just like my shoes.


We need to see some photos of your shoes. >

This is so strange that I wonder what it is about your shoes.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I have no problem at all with anyone telling me I look good, nice, or that they like my hair, outfit, ext.

It happened a LOT more when I was younger. At 70, not as much. And when I was younger, when it did happen, it was probably 80% or more from men. So either men are just focused on fashion and hair dos, or there was a lot attempts to flirt and/or get attention.

Again, it's not the complements that bothers me. And if it gets to be too much from a particular guy, the woman should be able to tell him to cool it. Then, if after that he does not stop whatever is annoying, there's a problem.

What does bother me is when a guy goes beyond that. Like rubbing my shoulders. Telling me about his wet dreams. Or telling me about his sex life. Or asking me out after I've made it clear that I'm not interested. Yea, I've had guys do that... mostly bosses which made it very hard to deal with.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*

I do remember one example that will always be cemented in my mind. 

I was stationed at one particular Air Force Base, living in family housing on base, during a period of heightened security. The base Security Forces, as part of antiterrorism/force protection measures, significantly increased the percentage of cars entering the base for random searches. 

"random" searches.

Over about a half year of heightened security, I was never once pulled over for "randomly."

During the same period, my wife was... a dozen or so times. She was in her mid thirties at the time, looking much more like a twentysomething, and a mighty fine one at that. 

What's more, when she was driving one of our vehicles without a child seat installed, the search was very thorough, took a long time, with lots of chitchat.... and not the interrogative kind. Meanwhile, when she had jr. in the back kiddie carseat, as soon as they saw Jr. or even the empty carseat, she was suddenly deemed no threat and sent on her way. 

I reported the discrepancy to the Security Forces commander who told me that anytime something is "random" that means some numbers will get called up more than others. It was pure coincidence that my wife was constantly tagged while I was ignored. I then pointed out that I had observed the gate and there was a disproportionately high percentage of attractive young women subjected to search aside from my wife and myself. This was especially significant since, being a military base, the population is overwhelmingly male to begin with, so fewer women even pass through the gate in the first place. He still pushed back until I threatened to run this higher up the chain of command and maybe even look for ways to publicize my observations. 

Suddenly, the sample of folks being subject to search was much more representative of of the gen pop of base personnel.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



jlg07 said:


> Yes, the bolded is VERY important. Why is common courtesy such a lost thing in human interactions?
> 
> And NOT just for looks -- although I commented that way since that is what the thread was about. I also comment when folks have done a good job. And I also comment when they have have gone of vacation -- hoping they had a good time away from work. I also comment when they tell me about their kids doing something great -- NOT just about looks. Why is it this ONE thing is bad to say to someone? Yet we can't anymore -- because of course saying this is sexist or sexual or offensive. REALLY? WHY? Why is saying you look nice today, or you look sharp such a bad thing? It has NOTHING to do with their response to me -- I'm not looking for a Thank you or anything else. I live the way I think I should behave, and NOT because someone else wants it or expects it or thanks me. Why is a simple acknowledgement for someone taking the extra effort bad? I don't get it.
> B
> What the hell is wrong with people that being nice is a BAD thing? Look at our society where everything is so politically correct that even being nice has negative connotations? Any you wonder why the world is like it is in the past few decades?


Specifically when it is about how someone looks, and if it is nothing about their response to you, can you at least imagine or accept that the receiver does not need your compliment? Again, if it’s just about you not them, then can you be ok with yourself to not hand out that compliment and realize that all other compliments are ok? I don’t see why that is so hard or why anyone would be so insistent. It’s nice that you want to do it but if it’s about you, then isn’t it ok to also just think it and keep it to yourself?

I’m like Ele and it honestly doesn’t “bother” me in anyway to hear a sincere compliment about how I look. But it also would not bother me in any way not to hear it. I would still always want compliments about who I am as a person or employee.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> Specifically when it is about how someone looks, and if it is nothing about their response to you, can you at least imagine or accept that the receiver does not need your compliment? Again, it’s it’s just about you not them, then can you be ok with yourself to not hand out that compliment and realize that all other compliments are ok? I don’t see why that is so hard or why anyone would be so insistent. It’s nice that you want to do it but if it’s about you, then isn’t it ok to also just think it and keep it to yourself?
> 
> I’m like Ele and it honestly doesn’t “bother” me in anyway to hear a sincere compliment about how I look. But it also would not bother me in any way not to hear it. I would still always want compliments about who I am as a person or employee.


I don't see why it is so hard or so insistent that THIS SPECIFIC compliment is such an issue. Being a person and being nice, isn't it ok to just say it? I'm not saying the person needs to hear it -- how would I possibly know that? But, what's the harm in being nice? I don't get the problem with that.

Why is THIS specific compliment NOT ok, but all others are? Is it important to the job that I ask about their family/kids? Is it important to getting the job done if I ask about their vacation? NO, but I am also not a robot where everything on the job is about the job. It's about people and interacting with them.

FW, you've already admitted that one of the reasons you compliment the nice looking girls is that you were flirting with them and wanted to get with them -- and then you realized that and stopped it. I think that your bias there is that this type of compliment can ONLY be flirting and because you "want" that person. I disagree -- I have said this to women and I have NO intentions of anything AT ALL with them, and I haven't just said it to the "hot" women.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



jlg07 said:


> I don't see why it is so hard or so insistent that THIS SPECIFIC compliment is such an issue. Being a person and being nice, isn't it ok to just say it? I'm not saying the person needs to hear it -- how would I possibly know that? But, what's the harm in being nice? I don't get the problem with that.
> 
> Why is THIS specific compliment NOT ok, but all others are? Is it important to the job that I ask about their family/kids? Is it important to getting the job done if I ask about their vacation? NO, but I am also not a robot where everything on the job is about the job. It's about people and interacting with them.
> 
> FW, you've already admitted that one of the reasons you compliment the nice looking girls is that you were flirting with them and wanted to get with them -- and then you realized that and stopped it. I think that your bias there is that this type of compliment can ONLY be flirting and because you "want" that person. I disagree -- I have said this to women and I have NO intentions of anything AT ALL with them, and I haven't just said it to the "hot" women.


I totally agree that not everyone was doing what I was doing. Many people were always far more appropriate than I was. I’m also not saying you have ever been inappropriate. I believe you that you haven’t been and that you are genuinely nice.

I am still offering another way to look at this. One that just acknowledges that how we look is irrelevant to our jobs. That’s all.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



Faithful Wife said:


> I totally agree that not everyone was doing what I was doing. Many people were always far more appropriate than I was. I’m also not saying you have ever been inappropriate. I believe you that you haven’t been and that you are genuinely nice.
> 
> I am still offering another way to look at this. One that just acknowledges that how we look is irrelevant to our jobs. That’s all.


Oh, I agree that for most jobs (unless you are a model or movie star!), how you look doesn't affect the job you do, or are capable of doing, or is relevant at ALL to the JOB. But this isn't about the JOB to me -- it's about how you treat others. I do agree though that acknowledging the way you look has nothing to do with the job itself. It has to do with how you relate to other people (at least to me -- I'd hate to work in a completely sterile environment where people can't converse about anything other than what is relevant to the job!).

Also, sorry for the TJ folks -- I will stop the comments at this point as we are pretty far off the main topic which is harassment of women.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



wilson said:


> There's this video that a woman made where she filmed herself walking for 10 hours through NYC to show all the sexual and verbal harassment that is typical. This is a short clip of what she went through:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Oh. It happens in Albania all the damn time. Men hitting on women and talking to them and even making sexual comments. 

Some men even hit on women who are already walking with their SO. As much as disrespectful and uncomfortable, it happens frequently and it has become a norm.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> I lived in Italy for years. It's very common, but more common from Rome south. Northern Italians often think that they are too high class to act like that.


True. Northern italians are more classy and more laid back. Southerns are more vulgar to the point of being trashy.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: How representative is the harassment in this "Women walking 10 hours in NYC" vide*



EleGirl said:


> We need to see some photos of your shoes. >
> 
> This is so strange that I wonder what it is about your shoes.


It's not just one pair. The first time, it was a pair of black sandals with gold buckles. An enormous man covered head to toe in SF Giants fan regalia (including a WWF-style belt with a huge buckle with SF in the center) stood in front of me as I innocently sipped my coffee. I was unnerved as he stared at me and then he suddenly said, 'I love your shoes. They're great.'

Another time I was shopping when two very well-dressed men commented on my shoes (not the sandals), arguing with themselves about the designer. They told me how fabulous they were .

This has happened at least five times in the past ten years, so it's a joke in my family now.

The shoes that the baseball fans seemed to love are Ferragamo loafers that I have had for years.

(Last year, one of my students in a Latin (!) class just piped up, 'Really like your shoes, Ms. AD!' Again, they were not the same shoes, this time black flats with a small silver buckle.)

OK....so now I get it. It's the buckle, lol.


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