# forgiveness, how so/what cost?



## cb45

want to open a new thread based on the main ingredient for LIFE and Marriage.

What do u think of forgivness?

can u forgive, truly forgive? against "your" religion?

conditions? can u forgive in most cases but not if....? or the opposite case, "cant forgive in most cases except......?

however u like to open up and discuss. yet most of all, how has
your belief worked out for u so far? or if not worked out, why?
in essence what have u learned or are still learning about forgiveness.

shalom yeladem.:smthumbup:


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## spottedzebra

I try to be the bigger person by being the first to extend the olive branch. But it is very hard, especially during the times when I strongly feel that I am not in the wrong. But I've found that once you take the first step to make peace, the rest of the healing process comes a lot easier.

I can't say if I'd forgive something like cheating. I haven't been tested that severely yet. But I can forgive almost everything else.


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## unbelievable

I'm really quick to forgive. I'm not willing to go through life dragging a bunch of ugly stuff with me. Life's too short for that.


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## LonelyNLost

I'm struggling with what forgiveness really is. Because I don't think it's not really about the other person it's about something within YOU. And second chances and forgiveness are separate things. I cling to the thought that I can't give forgiveness for something unless you show remorse and ask for it. So in my current situation where my H left us for another woman but won't admit it, I can't forgive him. But I can release myself of the burden and feeling of wanting revenge.


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## Tanelornpete

Forgiveness is an action, not an emotion. It is something that you bestow on another. It is something you grant, a promise to which you thereafter hold yourself. God tells us to forgive.

"To forgive is to grant pardon without harboring resentment" (thefreedictionary.com). It implies that we must refrain from imposing punishment on an offender or demanding satisfaction for an offense. God even tells us why: He is the judge, not us. Those are things we decide to do, and then carry out. It's a commitment we make, in front of God, to another person or group of people. God tells us (regarding all of our promises): "...Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth..." (Deut 23:23).

Quite often, forgiveness is not easy - and often the hurt feelings don't go away. But as Christians, we have something the rest of humanity does not: outside help. God tells us that He will always help us do the right thing.


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## cb45

Quite often, forgiveness is not easy - and often the hurt feelings don't go away. But as Christians, we have something the rest of humanity does not: outside help. God tells us that He will always help us do the right thing.-------TP

i used to (tempted to still, sometimes)beat meself up over the continual battle with re-occurring anger/hate thoughts as not letting go or truly forgiving after giving IT to God.
But truth is, often it is a longer process than one would like to go
thru. when it does happen to me nowadays i picture myself putting a red-hot poker/brand to the thought and "searing" it
shut or as a surgeon would "caulderize" a wd/incision, etc.

I think ABBA likes that sound as much as i do........."ssssss"!


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## SimplyAmorous

I find the subject of FORGIVENESS fasinating--and very very needed more in our society of ongoing resentments, tiffs and pettiness. 

I am someone who is very very troubled when I have angst against ANYONE in my life. I have ALWAYS tried to make peace with a friend, family member if something came between us, as much as I humanly can on my end, and espeically if I caused it, I am generally quick to make amends. Until I do that, I am disturbed somehow -I feel that is GOD. Once I do that, something is lifted from me- regardless of their reaction. I have never lost a friend due to the way I handle forgiveness. This doesn't always mean I want that person back in my life to the same degree if they are dangerous, or could hurt my family in some way though. 

As Unbelievable says, life is too short, resentment & ugly stuff is not something I am willing to stuff & carry around, I need it OUT OF MY SYSTEM so when I see these people, I truly can rejoice, smile and MEAN it. I am not someone who can FAKE how I feel. And I dont like myself if I try. I pride myself on being "genuine" before others -even if they might not like me. 

Forgiveness is NOT always easy -in fact anyone who says it is (if the offense hurt deeply) -I question whether they have TRULY forgiven. These things should be a struggle, it takes time to work through, no easy way out of this maze. 

Once I was SOOOO torn up over some girl talking bad against my older son I kinda got myself in trouble speaking bad about her -which it got back to her. I went to great lenghts to make this right, asking for forgiveness for MY "words" , even writing to the parents & explained myself, why I spoke in haste. Who does [email protected]#$%! Even the father of the girl was impressed to how I humbled myself- writing back to me calling me a "example" more people should have. Talk about a strange situation - The things I get myself involved in- because of MY mouth. 

I learned from that experience just HOW tramatic it is for a parent when someone hurts your child. What made this situation 10 times worse for me was -she was a well respected christian girl from my church. I never expected this from her & her sweetness towards his FACE is what really steamed me to boiling. He was shy & awkward back then, and him learning of her words hurt him a great deal, very deep. This about KILLED me, I literally spent a couple months grappling with forgiving his girl from my heart. I bought this book - highly recommend --for when you do not deserve the hurt (I felt strongly my son did not deserve this) >>> Amazon.com: Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve (Plus) (9780061285820): Lewis B. Smedes: Books

That was just a Crazy crazy -even embarrassing situation. Something to laugh about & tell the grandchildren someday. My love for my son & taking on his hurt is what drove my anger towards that girl -but it still was not OK. Funny thing is, he forgave her LONG before I did! 

When others HURT Me (verbally) , I am far less offended. I often look to why they might be saying something hurtful -are they having a bad day, speaking out of insecurities, or did I deserve it that time? If I did, I will pause, readjust myself but still stay in the game. I will not pout, clam up, think "how dare them" but maybe do some questioning, further investigation. I like to keep the lines of communication open in all things , even in offense. 

I also feel I could forgive an affair -if I understood why it happened and his heart was truly back where it belonged. 

I do NOT feel I could forgive someone who "intentionally" carelessly wrecklessly harmed my child to damage his or her life/physical body, or to my husband, even myself. That would be a MONSTER STRUGGLE for me personally. I am intregred by tear jerking movies that portray such HIGH emotion and the struggle to forgive under those circumstances. I dont know that I could. I do FEEL I would have to though to regain Peace in my soul. I hope I never face such a situation as long as I live.

I like this quote >>

*"You can't undo anything you've already done, but you can face up to it. You can tell the truth. You can seek forgiveness. And then let God do the rest.”*


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## Tanelornpete

SA - I think you are confusing the _feelings_ with the action. Forgiveness is an action - it is a statement you make to someone else that commits you to a particular course of action - regardless of how you feel. If we were perfect beings, the action would also be accompanied by the feeling of peace, or happiness, or whatever, that people mistakenly call 'forgiveness'. But we aren't.

The key is that you commit to the idea to NEVER impose punishment, or demand that your desire for restitution be fulfilled - you do not adhere to resentment (which _is_ a feeling!) 

It also does not mean that restitution cannot be made - in the case of theft, restitution is the best cure (prison time rarely works and is an illogical solution) _for the thief_. But forgiveness means that you will never hold it over them that they stole from you. You may not trust them, but you do not make a life pattern of resenting them (for the Christian, this would be a form of idolatry - making what was stolen or damaged of more importance that God).

Over time, you may _feel_ better about the situation, but that is subjective and not an accurate measurement of whether or not you adhered to your promise of forgiveness.


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## greenpearl

I used to dwell on things, it was very difficult for me to let go of the hurt somebody caused me. 

But now what I know is: Let's call "hatred" a big rock on our body, forgiveness is the tool to help us move away the big rock from our body. 

I don't want a big rock on my body all the time, I will be crushed, I might die.......................

For my own selfish reasons, for my own good, I know I have to forgive and forget! 

Now I just learn not to be bothered by others, not to expect much from people! Because they are HUMAN.


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## greenpearl

mommy22 said:


> I like this, GP. I often set my standards too high for those around me. I allow myself to be hurt because I expect more courtesy. I expect people to ask forgiveness and to own up to wrongdoing. I'm getting much better at realizing that just because I see the wrong doesn't mean others even realize it. We're all human and we all mess up. Some of us tend to mess up more than others (ME!). We all need forgiveness. Allowing others the benefit of a fresh start goes a long way. I mean, don't we all want a "re-do" on a somewhat regular basis??


Exactly the same thing with me and I feel exactly the same!


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## SimplyAmorous

Tanelornpete said:


> SA - I think you are confusing the _feelings_ with the action. Forgiveness is an action - it is a statement you make to someone else that commits you to a particular course of action - regardless of how you feel. If we were perfect beings, the action would also be accompanied by the feeling of peace, or happiness, or whatever, that people mistakenly call 'forgiveness'. But we aren't.
> 
> The key is that you commit to the idea to NEVER impose punishment, or demand that your desire for restitution be fulfilled - you do not adhere to resentment (which _is_ a feeling!)
> 
> It also does not mean that restitution cannot be made - in the case of theft, restitution is the best cure (prison time rarely works and is an illogical solution) _for the thief_. But forgiveness means that you will never hold it over them that they stole from you. You may not trust them, but you do not make a life pattern of resenting them (for the Christian, this would be a form of idolatry - making what was stolen or damaged of more importance that God).
> 
> Over time, you may _feel_ better about the situation, but that is subjective and not an accurate measurement of whether or not you adhered to your promise of forgiveness.


Speaking for myself here, I would NEVER impose punishment on another, or do anything to bring anyone harm, even someone I disliked tremendously, so that is a non issue. I may smile if hardship falls on them -but it would never come from MY hand. That is how I live. But you see, that is my test, I do NOT want to smile if hardship falls on them, so this is where I need to FEEL, I need to totally & honestly release any angst in my heart. 

So for me-- to have *the feelings *behind the action, or at least the STARTING of some genuine feelings / caring to go to another or to move towards someone after a SINCERE apology was given. Sincerity = some feeling/emotion. 

Believe me, I understand it is an "*action*". I don't feel enough people put *action* behind their getting right with another. Most just take it to God in prayer & forgo the humbling of themselves-- the dirty work of going to that person, they let Jesus Blood take care of it all. Seen it too many times. I think this is one of the most neglected parts of scripture taught in the church today--About not taking your gift to the alter until you have been "reconciled" with another (for me, that is getting angst out of your heart and/or repaying something you owe). 

Then I have been on the receiving end of an Aunt who likes to come to me immediately (or any family member) just so she can " Get RIGHT with her God" , even telling me this while she is asking for forgiveness. I kid you not. 

Now , in my book, there was no sense in even coming to me at all -with that kind of attitude. I think we need a little feeling there, some motivation other than "I NEED to do this to get right with God" so I can be "clean" again, I see that behavior as almost self serving in nature, I am reduced to a thing in the way of her "cleanness". 

If feelings mean nothing, how in the world can you judge anything coming out of a anyone's mouth? How bland life would be if this is how we operated. Don't we all want a Sincere apology, or be sincere when we ask for another's forgiveness. Are not feelings & our emotions a *reflection *of the heart? 

If someone doesn't like me, I would rather them ACT like it for a time while they are dealing with something -than push that down & act a certain way to my face and be devoid of feelings . Some "inner turmoil" can lead you to good places if allow it to do it's job, but to immediately push that off & not face it --but do a feeling-less apology, naaah, save it till you come to a "clearer" place -so we can genuinely communicate what happened & where to go from there. 

I need to FEEL. 

This IS why I had issues with that girl (silly since she didn't even do anything to me)- She made promises to my son to teach him guitar, promises for the wind. Thankfully he taught himself, he was determined despite the let down- now he is a worship Leader even. But do NOT act a certain way to someone's face -saying you are a friend when you are not or do not care to be. We were stupid. We were fooled, we trusted the outside appearance of goodness. 

Better to take some time, pray, struggle -but come to me at the appropriate time, and genuinely - because you care a little about the person, you want peace between the 2 of you, not just "words" spoken to appease a God somewhere. It has to be more than that. 

That is what I expect from myself. 

I totally agree with you, just cause you forgive does NOT mean everything needs to go back to the same. There are surely "consequences" to our actions. 

I kind of look at this almost they same way I do compliments- did you ever meet someone who is SO complimentory, you just KNOW they LIVE to uplift, but there is no way they feel that way about everyone they compliment, after all everyone would be thier BEST friend, the lovliest couple they ever met. It is watered down somehow. 

To get complimented by the soul who doesn't live & breathe it every day, somehow means MORE than the one who does it with everyone he meets. Forgiveness is like that-for me. If it comes too easy, too fast, It may be totally devoid of any real meat behind it. But mere words. 

A sincere heart-felt apology is what is important, this is what moves us.


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## cb45

SimplyAmorous said:


> So for me-- to have *the feelings *behind the action, or at least the STARTING of some genuine feelings / caring to go to another or to move towards someone after a SINCERE apology was given. Sincerity = some feeling/emotion. *I get what yer saying as USUALLY true but, NOT always is it so because
> there are some pretty "cold/clinical" types out there that can
> only cooly convey verbally or in deeds only. i won't mention any persons/names.*
> 
> Believe me, I understand it is an "*action*". I don't feel enough people put *action* behind their getting right with another. Most just take it to God in prayer & forgo the humbling of themselves-- the dirty work of going to that person, they let Jesus Blood take care of it all. Seen it too many times. I think this is one of the most neglected parts of scripture taught in the church today--About not taking your gift to the alter until you have been "reconciled" with another (for me, that is getting angst out of your heart and/or repaying something you owe). *If u adhered
> to other judeo-christian beliefs as good/well as u do this one SA, i'd repeat what MY Lord said to Joesph of Arimethia "you are not far from the kingdom of heaven.."; for i agree with u that many/most ALL peoples (not just christians) are guilty of
> this at one time or another.
> Yet u leave out one important pt; It is the Lord (via the H>S>)
> that actually pts it out to us in the 1st place (usually) as
> most of us sin daily w/out even knowing it (i.e., hurt/harm
> others, directly/indirectly) unless HE "tell/show" us so.
> Which leads me to yer next 3 paragraphs:*
> 
> Then I have been on the receiving end of an Aunt who likes to come to me immediately (or any family member) just so she can " Get RIGHT with her God" , even telling me this while she is asking for forgiveness. I kid you not.
> Now , in my book, there was no sense in even coming to me at all -with that kind of attitude. I think we need a little feeling there, some motivation other than "I NEED to do this to get right with God" so I can be "clean" again, I see that behavior as almost self serving in nature, I am reduced to a thing in the way of her "cleanness". *Sad but,
> sometimes true...no doubt. Yet there are other ways of looking at this too. e.g., God brought it to her attn 1st. God is God and must be addressed/appeased 1st in a sense as we usually dont
> agree with Him quickly and thusly have to come under conviction for our sin(s) against Him first b4 we can move onto
> truthfully "settling/admitting/restituting with you.
> Also, i think u need to (if u r capable of it) look at yer own pride
> issues when "needing a little feeling" coming from her, a little something (pain, suffering, embarrassment kinda things u mean?) that proves she's legitimately sorry? In this world we live in nowadays, u r lucky/forturnate enuff to get any "sorrys" at all from anyone. Sad but true  . Ideally yer right in that
> she shouldnt put it that way but....again, hey.
> If "We" are to be fully mature christians, we arent a) offended in the 1st place (at least not easily)" where there is
> Offense there is pride.." and b)"We" give up our cause/hurt/pain
> to El Elyon Himself to deal with "vengeance is mine saith....".
> *
> If feelings mean nothing, how in the world can you judge anything coming out of a anyone's mouth? How bland life would be if this is how we operated. Don't we all want a Sincere apology, or be sincere when we ask for another's forgiveness. Are not feelings & our emotions a *reflection *of the heart? *And this ones too easy; feelings are shallow barameters of anything in this world, esp considering how we dont master them well (yet)
> at all. People can fake feelings pos & negatively speaking so they dont add up to much at the end of the day. i shant have
> to waste time proving/explaining this, i hope (just watch survivor on tv, they'll show ya).*
> 
> If someone doesn't like me, I would rather them ACT like it for a time while they are dealing with something -than push that down & act a certain way to my face and be devoid of feelings . Some "inner turmoil" can lead you to good places if allow it to do it's job, but to immediately push that off & not face it --but do a feeling-less apology, naaah, save it till you come to a "clearer" place -so we can genuinely communicate what happened & where to go from there. * U may be right. i'd say case by case can spell out
> some diffs. also what i wrote on just above paragraph can/
> could apply here as well.*
> 
> I need to FEEL. *generally speaking we all do! but if u go by the FEEL of yer pants then your body
> limits yer reasoning skills & becomes the ruler of yer soul, not the Spirit God gave you to depend on and reign with.*
> 
> This IS why I had issues with that girl (silly since she didn't even do anything to me)- She made promises to my son to teach him guitar, promises for the wind. Thankfully he taught himself, he was determined despite the let down- now he is a worship Leader even. But do NOT act a certain way to someone's face -saying you are a friend when you are not or do not care to be. We were stupid. We were fooled, we trusted the outside appearance of goodness. *dont know the full story. u sound harsh on yer self here but as the saying goes: "if it dont kill u, it only makes u stronger..." no es verdad?*
> 
> Better to take some time, pray, struggle -but come to me at the appropriate time, and genuinely - because you care a little about the person, you want peace between the 2 of you, not just "words" spoken to appease a God somewhere. It has to be more than that.
> 
> That is what I expect from myself.
> 
> I totally agree with you, just cause you forgive does NOT mean everything needs to go back to the same. There are surely "consequences" to our actions.
> 
> I kind of look at this almost they same way I do compliments- did you ever meet someone who is SO complimentory, you just KNOW they LIVE to uplift, but there is no way they feel that way about everyone they compliment, after all everyone would be thier BEST friend, the lovliest couple they ever met. It is watered down somehow. *Again it all depends on yer perspective. Some Christians go around
> trying to edify everyone they can cause a) it is written to do so. b) christians are in need of it just as much as ***** cuz
> its a neg world out there and some/alot of pos is nec to combat that neg polarity. c) God blessed them with edifying
> praise as a "gift" as it were, and so, they share it often & as
> in tribute/gratitude to God.
> Only time its phoney is when they don't believe it or have ulterior personal gain motives etc. but u u mention "feelings" again so....i'll say this:
> u dont always feel like doing the house chores but they
> must/should be done & so u do 'em.
> so much for "feelings".
> 
> Feelings are meant primarily as beacons/alerts, indicators to something changing the status quo, our focus, our physiological makeup, and so on & so forth. They aren't worthless or "nothing" as u wrote above but, they can't be overemphasized as most us get caught up doing from time to time (some more than others methinks) or all too often.*
> 
> To get complimented by the soul who doesn't live & breathe it every day, somehow means MORE than the one who does it with everyone he meets. Forgiveness is like that-for me. If it comes too easy, too fast, It may be totally devoid of any real meat behind it. But mere words.
> 
> A sincere heart-felt apology is what is important, this is what moves us.:iagree:if u include its REALLY MORE important
> for them, the transgressor.
> 
> AIN'T LOVE GRAND??:smthumbup:


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## Jellybeans

Re: forgiveness-- I did something really bad (cheated) that I feel very guilty & remorseful for every day for over 2 yrs now. I did counselling and was told I have to "forgive" myself and yet haven't and can't imagine I ever will. So how does one deal with that? Advice?


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## rogerd

I need to forgive 27 years of abuse.


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## SimplyAmorous

JellyBeans: Happiness After Infidelity - Self-Forgiveness: How to Get Past the Guilt, Hurt & Shame

I think the best author on this subject is Lewis Smedes, love his books, he has a chapter called Forgiving ourselves (ch 8) in this book Amazon.com: Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve (Plus) (9780061285820): Lewis B. Smedes: Books It is excellently explained. 

He also has this book - Amazon.com: Shame and Grace: Healing the Shame We Don't Deserve (9780060675226): Lewis B. Smedes: Books


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## Mrs.G

What happens if you want to forgive someone, but they keep repeating the same behaviour? Is it a true fresh start if you cut that person off, wish them well but keep them away because they are toxic?

I must say then when I could finally feel compassion for my abusers, a weight lifted from my shoulders. I was finally at peace.


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## SimplyAmorous

Mrs.G said:


> What happens if you want to forgive someone, but they keep repeating the same behaviour? Is it a true fresh start if you cut that person off, wish them well but keep them away because they are toxic?


Many are toxic to themselves. For me, so long as they are not crowding my personal boundaries, calling me too much to whine, or interfering with my own life & family to the point of annoyance, I would probably not cut them off. Depends on the offense of coarse. They would have to put up with my constructive criticism in the aftermath -if I felt offended and had the urge to say what for. That alone could drive them away! I am not one to stay quiet when I am bothered by something. But I try to bring it across as peacefully as I possibly can to restore harmony, if it can he had. 



> I must say then when I could finally feel compassion for my abusers, a weight lifted from my shoulders. I was finally at peace.


 Definitely. *Feeling* that weight lifted was always my attainment in this thing called forgiveness, the sign from heaven itself -it is finished. It's striving is done, I am free once again.


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## cb45

Mrs.G said:


> What happens if you want to forgive someone, but they keep repeating the same behaviour? Is it a true fresh start if you cut that person off, wish them well but keep them away because they are toxic?
> 
> I must say then when I could finally feel compassion for my abusers, a weight lifted from my shoulders. I was finally at peace.


Good pts & Q's Mrs G.

your 2nd paragraph eptomizes Jesus' "heart" time after time
especially concerning "his lost" sheep Israel, and the benefits
for us to do as He did/does. IF we "master" giving it to Him
we are doing very very well indeed.

your 1st para: hmmm......my understanding is this presently:

if "they" transgress and ask forgiveness 70 x 70 times we
are to forgive like our FATHER does in Heaven.

if they transgress & dont ask, then we are to give it to 
GOD for "judgement" for we could error in many possible
ways for many reasons. GOD alone will judge and recompense
them if they do evil (or good for that matter) and how much.

if u stay w/in the "dont asks" reach or in their company 
methinks GOD will tell u *when* to "move on" if not immediately then *WHEN*. For whether good or bad, there are lessons for all of us to learn thru these people and situations, whether we like them (people and the lessons) or not. 

for this has been my life experience thus far. not all who "hurt" u r your enemy AND not all who console u are your friend.

this theme can clearly be seen in the book of Job.

shalom aleichem...........


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## Tanelornpete

> What happens if you want to forgive someone, but they keep repeating the same behaviour? Is it a true fresh start if you cut that person off, wish them well but keep them away because they are toxic?


The idea of forgiveness is not to get someone else to change, nor is it a reward for their good behavior - it is something you simply grant them.

And if you follow Jesus' advice, you will simply forgive over and over, endlessly (his use of 70x70 was not a numerical formula - it was to point out that you keep doing it)...

But this does NOT mean that you must put yourself in danger over and over - you can certainly remove yourself from the situation. Sometimes that is the best answer, especially when it means keeping you from harm. 

In that situation, you forgive, and stay away from the possibility of future problems.


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## Rough Patch Sewing

Forgiveness is just as much a "releasing one's self" from emotional and mental bondage as it is the "releasing someone from a grudge" due to some offense, damage, fraud, injury, and/or abuse.


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## wild_irish_rose

I forgave my husband a long time ago for abandoning me. Wasn't even that difficult. However, I find myself having to forgive him over and over again for abandoning his child as well. Every time my son asks me why his father never comes to see him anymore...every birthday and Christmas and Father's Day when my son wonders why daddy isn't there...every time he calls and promises to visit and then never shows up...I struggle not to hate him. It's harder for me when someone hurts the people I love than when they hurt me.


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## Parrothead

rogerd said:


> I need to forgive 27 years of abuse.


Well, as much as I hate to disagree with some of the others, forgiveness is for you, not for the forgiven. Most of the time they couldn't care less. I have heard it said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.


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## Parrothead

greenpearl said:


> Now I just learn not to be bothered by others, not to expect much from people! Because they are HUMAN.


I'll take it a step further and say that expecting them to keep their word might be a bridge too far... blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed.


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## sammy3

I wonder why forgiveness isn't learned more so (Im not speaking to the extreme cases) as we grow up? We all learn manner, speech, writing, math. We learn jealous, sadness, and unfairness, as we grow into adults. Why is forgiveness one the toughest to understand, & what it really means? (I myself,still don't have a clue) Why is it a coping skill so few of us posses when we are tested? 

~sammy


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## ILoveStars

Forgiveness is such a great thing. I know that deeply considering I went through it with my sister. Sometimes you have to forgive someone if you truly understand them. People make mistakes and we all deserve second chances in life.


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## Parrothead

sammy3 said:


> I wonder why forgiveness isn't learned more so (Im not speaking to the extreme cases) as we grow up?


Because people can be unimaginably cruel, even to their own children. There are people who NEVER come to grips with the cruelty they have seen, let alone learn how to forgive.


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## cb45

i can relate to the "shat on me but NOT my kids/loved one(s)!"

i'm not "perfected" in this area yet. For Jesus, while on earth,
witnessed several/many injustices, calamities, misforturnes, etc
and held his "peace" (i.e. did not act/speak); ala John the baptist, Tower accident, et al.

if u hurt my family/friends, am sure i'm not "there" yet.

i've heard/read both sides of this "issue" of turning the other
cheek, as applied to others injustices, etc.

another thread perhaps.

shalom yedideem.


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## cb45

Parrothead said:


> Because people can be unimaginably cruel, even to their own children. There are people who NEVER come to grips with the cruelty they have seen, let alone learn how to forgive.


Interesting tho', for many
a born again christian goes thru a "cleansing stage" in which
they confess/acknowledge past sins that need to be addressed
and/or fixed/resolved. in essence, almost like a "judgement day" on earth in which atonement is possible/necessary.

methinks i remember such a time as this.

Selah.


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> Interesting tho', for many
> a born again christian goes thru a "cleansing stage" in which
> they confess/acknowledge past sins that need to be addressed
> and/or fixed/resolved. in essence, almost like a "judgement day" on earth in which atonement is possible/necessary.


That sounds more like AA than Christianity. 

My reading tells me that you will never really "arrive" this side of Paradise, mainly because of the fallen state of the world we live in, and we are constantly washing our feet from worldly contamination. As a result, we "work out our salvation in fear and trembling". This is not works righteous, mind you, just the persuit of being holy as God is holy.


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> i'm not "perfected" in this area yet. For Jesus, while on earth,
> witnessed several/many injustices, calamities, misforturnes, etc
> and held his "peace" (i.e. did not act/speak); ala John the baptist, Tower accident, et al.


Yet, he had compassion on the victims. Go figure. Evidently Jesus had a vision of the bigger picture.

To what "tower accident" are you referring?


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## cb45

Parrothead said:


> That sounds more like AA than Christianity. :lol: gee, i wouldnt know :scratchhead: PH, as never been "there".
> also, if u r problng, better to ask me, straight out.
> 
> My reading tells me that you will never really "arrive" this side of Paradise, mainly because of the fallen state of the world we live in, and we are constantly washing our feet from worldly contamination.


 in re: to my perfection phrase eh? hmmm, always looking to be
be clear let me clarify; perfection as in Spiritual (alone), No.
Perfection as in being "in Him & Him in me", Yes. For thats
the only way Elohim can look at us, & us approach HIM, thru
Jesus' blood covering us, His Spirit in us, and His witnessing
as much/such (or defending/acknowledging/testifying to same) as our Advocate-Priest (amongst many rel'shp titles/tasks He shares/maintains,etc)



Parrothead said:


> Yet, he had compassion on the victims. Go figure. Not sure (in totality) what u mean as relates
> to my initial comment)
> 
> To what "tower accident" are you referring?


Why that would be
Luke 13:4 Consider the possiblities of before and after judgmts
or comments He could've made, & more so, interventions ala
healings/miracles etc. selah.


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## Parrothead

> gee, i wouldnt know PH, as never been "there".
> also, if u r problng, better to ask me, straight out.


Not at all, you assume too much. I have many books in my library, that's just another one of them. It may interest you to know that there are a TON of self help programs based on AA, btw. 



cb45 said:


> in re: to my perfection phrase eh? hmmm, always looking to be
> be clear let me clarify; perfection as in Spiritual (alone), No.
> Perfection as in being "in Him & Him in me", Yes. For thats
> the only way Elohim can look at us, & us approach HIM, thru
> Jesus' blood covering us, His Spirit in us, and His witnessing
> as much/such (or defending/acknowledging/testifying to same) as our Advocate-Priest (amongst many rel'shp titles/tasks He shares/maintains,etc)


That's not what you said. You said something about "a born again christian goes thru a "cleansing stage" in which
they confess/acknowledge past sins that need to be addressed
and/or fixed/resolved. in essence, almost like a "judgement day" on earth in which atonement is possible/necessary". 

The atonement is basic stuff, I don't remembering seeing anything about a "cleansing stage". 




> Why that would be
> Luke 13:4 Consider the possiblities of before and after judgmts
> or comments He could've made, & more so, interventions ala
> healings/miracles etc. selah.


Whatever...


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## cb45

3. :rofl:

2. ....whew! (cb catches his breath after hard belly ROFL) 

*your choice/choose now...." (Joshua) *
 a) glad "we" clarified that; b) need more clarity; c) PH bright & "he" can figure it out; d) leave 'em lol, best medicine

_and.....finally (the countdown ends)

1. cb didnt "assume" anything. he used the key word "*if*"...
look it up if u must but u'll see semantic difference, eh?
*IF* u are going to hold me to semantic standards (is ok, 
as i'm always looking to improve all facets of communique),
BEST, u be ready to live up to friendly/accuracy challenge
as well. fair is fair. non-negotiable, u digg?_


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> 3. :rofl:
> 
> 2. ....whew! (cb catches his breath after hard belly ROFL)
> 
> *your choice/choose now...." (Joshua) *
> a) glad "we" clarified that; b) need more clarity; c) PH bright & "he" can figure it out; d) leave 'em lol, best medicine
> 
> _and.....finally (the countdown ends)
> 
> 1. cb didnt "assume" anything. he used the key word "*if*"...
> look it up if u must but u'll see semantic difference, eh?
> *IF* u are going to hold me to semantic standards (is ok,
> as i'm always looking to improve all facets of communique),
> BEST, u be ready to live up to friendly/accuracy challenge
> as well. fair is fair. non-negotiable, u digg?_


I am not arguing semantics with you, I am just trying to figure out what in Gehenna you are talking about. You need to look up the word "context".


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## SimplyAmorous

Parrothead said:


> forgiveness is for you, not for the forgiven. Most of the time they couldn't care less. I have heard it said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.


This is so true, many could not care less. I never heard that saying before, I like it! 

When the unforgiven DOES care & it holding out their hand, I think it is accually so much EASIER to forgive from the heart -because it is a bridge repaired , a relationship restored. 

When they don't care, soooo much harder to get through, but we have to do it --for ourselves.


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## Parrothead

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is so true, many could not care less. I never heard that saying before, I like it!
> 
> When the unforgiven DOES care & it holding out their hand, I think it is accually so much EASIER to forgive from the heart -because it is a bridge repaired , a relationship restored.
> 
> When they don't care, soooo much harder to get through, but we have to do it --for ourselves.


I agree!


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## cb45

apologies to PH, think i had too many post/replies going at one time and cross over the replies.

we were going back n forth on minor pts most likely but depending on how we go about that "back n forth" process
can turn minor into major, no?

as i re-read back-posts, i only see the need to clarify a mistake
i made on saying Spiritual wasnt perfected. for that was sealed on "Born again" day. done deal. Soul isnt perfected. thats still (sigh) a work in progress all tks to H>S> leading.


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## AFEH

I “learnt” about forgiveness in my early 50s. It was a time of introspection for me. I looked back on my life and saw the grudges I’d held against my father for “the things he got wrong”. Then I looked at myself as the father of my two sons and I saw the things that I’d got wrong. The very first thing I did was to go to my father’s grave and forgive him. I sat with him for two hours in the drizzling rain and forgave him. When I got up to leave the clouds opened a bit and the sun came down in rays. I like to think my forgiveness released him from his grave and up he went.

When I realised what I’d got wrong with my sons was totally unintentional I was able to forgive myself. I then forgave every person who I thought had “wronged me”. I did this by writing it down in bullet points and went into churches during private prayer time. For me there is absolutely no need for the person to know that I have forgiven them. It was totally and utterly something I did for myself so I would not hold onto grudges, past hurts and live as a bitter and resentful person.

I don’t think I would ever tell a person that “I have forgiven them”. For me that is quite a prideful thing to do. Plus I’d be too concerned that they’d retort in a mocking, hurtful way or they would deny that they'd ever hurt me.

These days I try for “instant forgiveness”. Why? Because it “frees me up”, relaxes me so I can really see and understand what’s going on in the interaction. I’m going to forgive at some stage anyway, so why not do it instantly? But I still don’t tell the other person, it is something I say to myself.

But if someone were to ask me to forgive them I am more or less always in the position to say “I have forgiven you.”.

But there are two things I don’t believe in. I don’t believe in forgiveness without boundaries. If we’ve been hurt we have every right to assert a new boundary to protect ourselves from being hurt again by the same person and the same thing. “ I have forgiven you but you will never do that again to me.”.

The second thing I don’t believe in is taking things from a person I am unable to forgive. For me that would be extremely two faced and abusive of the other person and I would lose my personal sense of my credibility and integrity.


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