# Wanting more sex for 20 years has finally reached my boiling point



## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

New to the forum and first time poster.

I will try to give some pertinent background information but keep it short.

My wife and I dated for 2 years before being married. We never had sex (religious reasons) before getting married but we did fool around a bit. During our courtship I made it very clear that I believe I had a fairly healthy sex drive. I asked my wife her views on sex, oral sex, etc. to do my diligence and try to ensure I was marrying somebody who felt the same as I. I made it very clear before marriage that I liked/wanted/enjoyed sex and I hadn't even had it yet. We have been married for 20 years with two kids (9/7). We run a stressful business and life is busy but who isn't? I am very happy with my life, friends, career, home, children, etc.........but extremely unhappy with our sex life.

Sure it was good for about the first year and then it tapered off. For the past 20 years I have made it very clear that we are not having enough quantity/quality sex. I am not talking about sex every day, blowjobs in the car, sex in an elevator, anal, and all sorts of crazy stuff etc, etc. And trust me, after reading some of the stuff on this website I think there are some pretty crazy people out there (not judging either). All I want is 2X a week *but of course more would be great*. We always gone through a cycle where its ok for a while (because I have to speak up) but then it just tapers back to the same. I know there are a lot of guys out there in the same situation. 

You know the drill, same old boring sex, never mix it up, only at night, no passion, no fun/experimentation, and you feel like you will never get it unless you ask.
I have to beg for her to let me go down on her.
BJ are rare and it's a fight to get them even though I have repeatedly stated how much I enjoy them. Now all of a sudden she doesn't "believe in them"
We can never have sex twice in a day or two days in a row.
No morning sex
No daytime sex
If I ask for any of the above she almost makes me feel like I have a problem and am a deviant. In all honesty, I think she is a prude.

I have made it clearly known far too many times for the last 20 years that once a week is just not enough for me. Threre has probably been 4-5 times where I have pretty much said "I can't take it, I am leaving" but she begs me to stay, says she will try harder, but it last for a couple week sand then back to the same. I have tried lots of different things hoping that it would improve things. I have bought the lingerie. I bought a WeVibe (for her) hoping it would spice things up. It got used twice. I do the cards, flowers, random acts of kindness thing. I honestly don't want to toot my own horn in any way but I think it's pertinent information that I am a good father, a good family/spiritual head, I am very loyal, I work extremely hard, I am successful, we are not rich but we are well off. I spend a lot of quality time with my kids, drive them to school everyday, take them to hockey, etc. I once read that housework was a big factor in getting more sex so I really stepped it up. I help out around the house a lot, setting table every day until the kids got old enough, helping with cooking, I clean up and don't make a mess, I clear the table and do the dishes almost every day. It didn't help.

So I keep asking myself.........am I being unreasonable in asking for sex twice a week? I think it's a ridiculous question to be honest. I know that somebody is going to say they need it every day and other people are going to say they only need it once a month. Well, they are not me. 

I cannot and would not ever cheat. I don't do Porn as personally I don't think it's healthy in many ways. But I think I am at the crossroads. I have reached my boiling point to where I don't think I keep putting up with it. After trying everything and being completely up front and honest I honestly don't think it will ever improve. Is it logical to throw away a decent (could be a great marriage)marriage over it? On the other hand is it logical to be miserable over it and just keep putting up with it? I honestly feel that at this point I just have to leave my marriage.

From reading a few posts on here it seems to be a problem that most marriages have.

Is there any advice anybody can give who have been in the same circumstance? 

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Oasis649


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Has she ever had an affair, even an emotional affair, do you remember a specific event which caused her to turn away from sex.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

I divorced rather than live a sexless Hell anymore. 30 years gone. But it was a lot more complicated than I'd imagined. I stayed thinking it would change, but it didn't. Sorry, my friend. You can read my story with the link below if you want. Good luck.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/378298-getting-ready-drop-news.html


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Your situation hasn't and won't change. The only one keeping you where you are is you.

Your lack of actions tell her you accept it or you wouldn't be in this would you.

You've been living in this for a long time and will continue to do so.

Talk won't get you anywhere


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

Sounds like your wife does not have the same drive you have and that seems like a deal breaker for you. 2x per week is not unreasonable - a quickie during the week and a little more time on the weekend. The only thing I would wonder is if your wife's perception of your happy life is the same as yours. Guessing not.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

It really is the biggest issue for men. A strong drive to pro-create within a society and relationship structure that doesn't allow that.
Accept that most women are the same.
Once you accept that, you can think about ways to manage your drive.
1. How much exercise do you get?
2. Do you take matters into your own hands for relief?
I find hard exercise the biggest relief.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Sadly it sounds like she told you what you wanted to hear to get married. She may never be able to give you what you want, it may not be in her to do so.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Oasis649 said:


> Is there any advice anybody can give who have been in the same circumstance?


I was at the same point in my marriage, after about the same length of time. My choice - and my advice - is to divorce within the next few years if nothing changes. Very few people in this situation manage to have things change to their satisfaction - maybe 1%. The majority who leave move on to more satisfying relationships, and learn to avoid making the same mistake again.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> Has she ever had an affair, even an emotional affair, do you remember a specific event which caused her to turn away from sex.


Hello,

No, no and no

She hasn't turned away from it, it's just not enough to meet my needs.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

poida said:


> It really is the biggest issue for men. A strong drive to pro-create within a society and relationship structure that doesn't allow that.
> Accept that most women are the same.
> Once you accept that, you can think about ways to manage your drive.
> 1. How much exercise do you get?
> ...


Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

So you are saying "accept that most woman are like that, that my drive is my problem and I have to suppress it?

To answer your questions though I am very very active.

Oh yes, I have taken matters into my own hands. Personally, I didn't find that healthy or advantageous.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

If you're really bent about this (and you shouldn't feel bad if you are--you are who you are and you have no reason to feel shame for it), the longer you delay a decision, the harder it will be to make, and the less time there will be to move on and find a situation that meets your need.

...(coming from someone now married over 30 years in a marriage that has always been absolutely perfect... except the sex part. Coming from someone who sometimes wonders if he did the right thing)


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Oasis649 said:


> New to the forum and first time poster.
> 
> I will try to give some pertinent background information but keep it short.
> 
> ...



You state in your post that you're not neglecting your responsibilities around the house, but what about her emotional needs? Do you know what they are? You might benefit from reading "His Needs, Her Needs". It's possible that she has emotional needs that are currently going unmet, which is causing this drought.

After reading the above book, I'd recommend you go to a good christian marital counselor in your area, and explain the situation to them. Take your wife with you for the second session, and see if counseling does you any good.

If both of those methods fail, then all you have left is going nuclear. Making the problem hers. And I'd tell her what's going to happen in advance, "If our sex life does not improve to a satisfactory level within two weeks, then I am going to..." insert consequence here. It'd be best to start with something small, something that won't hurt her feelings. If things still do not improve, then you turn up the heat. Stop helping with a chore that you normally do. Or if things keep getting worse after that, then move her stuff out of the master bedroom, into another bedroom, and require that she sleep in there so long as she continues to neglect your sexual needs.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OK I have two tacts. First send her here https://forgivenwife.com/ tell her you are almost done. But I don't believe in ultimatums nothing is worse then sex at the point of a gun. What I mean is saying something like - "Wife I am really starting to think we just have to come to the conclusion that for whatever reason you are just not into me, at least not into having a sexual relationship with me. That's OK but then I am interested in finding out if there is someone out there who is into having one with me. So maybe we need to I think about moving on. We can be friends and not be married but I am no longer interested in living like friends with my wife. At present because of our vows you are he only one I can have sex with but it seems you have no desire to have sex with me." See what she does. 

I have to ask before you do that though are you in shape? Do you dress nice, have you studied what women find attractive and tried to present yourself that way? Have you tried to seduce her? Because women need an emotional connection to want to have sex. Nothing is less attractive then a person begging for sex. She needs strength. If you don't know this you need to learn this stuff because it's going to be the same for any women you are with. 

What about her going to a doctor? Are you sure she is getting orgasms? Maybe you are not fulfilling her in bed. Are you sure that is not it? Have you talked about it? 

The second more ominous one assuming you did all of this. 

I can't tell you the amount of posts from guys and even girls where their spouse told them that it wasn't them, it was just that the spouse was not into sex. Only to find out that the spouse cheated later and did all manor of things with the affair partner they wouldn't do or even think of doing with their spouse. Enthusiastically even. It has solidified my conclusion that a sexless marriage is unsustainable and it's actually dangerous for the starving person to stay in that marriage. 

Now do some folks just lose their desire for sex? I suspect they think they do, but maybe even they don't know that it's really they have lost their desire for sex with their spouse. Some new comes along and rekindles that desire. To me it's too much of a risk. Assuming you have done everything I said in the first paragraph then I would proceed at your own risk.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Lots of people in the same predicament. It rarely gets better. 

She may just have low libido, and that rarely changes. 

One thing though - is she on any medications, from birth control to anti-depressants that could be affecting her sex drive?


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

I would also recommend The 5 Love Languages for both of you, and No More Mr. Nice Guy just for you.

Also - this for your wife - https://forgivenwife.com/sexless-marriage-loveless-marriage/

I was in a marriage of once every 6+ months due to issues in my wife's past. It came to point of me telling her in MC office that we either would have a marriage with sex or a divorce.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> ...


Im saying that the vast majority of women are much the same in respect to sex frequency. To leave for another woman will generally put you back in the same place.

Im saying its a modern society predicament.

Im saying it might be lass painful to work on ways to make sex less a focus in your life. Its easy to obsess, I know. 

And as per below posters, there may be things you can do to assist your wife's emotional desire in you. More sex should follow.

Understand that a woman who is sexual and wants it 7 days a week is a 1%er.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

poida said:


> Im saying that the vast majority of women are much the same in respect to sex frequency. To leave for another woman will generally put you back in the same place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wtf?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

poida said:


> Im saying that the vast majority of women are much the same in respect to sex frequency. To leave for another woman will generally put you back in the same place.
> 
> Im saying its a modern society predicament.
> 
> ...


That's not been my experience since the divorce. My sex life has been drastically better than it has been in the past 15+ years.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

What is your actual average frequency when she is not under the threat of you leaving?


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Wtf?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Wtf?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Oh you recon 1% for women desiring sex EVERY day (on average) is a wild claim huh.......

You know it to be true.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Your post reinforced my thinking that it is better to find out sooner rather that wait to find out. I do not know how many times I have been pilloried for stating this. The reality is you do not know until you know. I do not care if one or the other says they enjoy/like/love sex before. The fact is that sex encompasses many different things. You never know until you find out which is one of the reasons why I can't believe that anyone waits for whatever reason until they are married to have sex. Sex is central to the marriage and in fact the reason why we date and marry other people. To wait until you have made a legal commitment to find out is a fools game.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Your post reinforced my thinking that it is better to find out sooner rather that wait to find out. I do not know how many times I have been pilloried for stating this. The reality is you do not know until you know. I do not care if one or the other says they enjoy/like/love sex before. The fact is that sex encompasses many different things. You never know until you find out which is one of the reasons why I can't believe that anyone waits for whatever reason until they are married to have sex. Sex is central to the marriage and in fact the reason why we date and marry other people. To wait until you have made a legal commitment to find out is a fools game.


Right! Try before you buy. 

The whole religious approach to sex before marriage is madness and only stems from a time where society where large numbers of single pregnant women was a huge burden on society that was poorer in general. Religion refuses to keep up with modern societal changes including contraception. No wonder the non-religious population is growing at a more and more rapid rate.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

It took me nearly twenty years to realize I had no influence over her in this area, when, where, if, etc. Ask her why she has to maintain this control at all times.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

poida said:


> Im saying that the vast majority of women are much the same in respect to sex frequency. To leave for another woman will generally put you back in the same place.
> 
> Im saying its a modern society predicament.
> 
> ...


my wife is a 1%er then... 

funny though, for the first few years, we had sex once every month or three. mainly because she refused, withheld. 

what most people don't understand is that if they want their wives to change, then they have to change. simple as that.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> Your post reinforced my thinking that it is better to find out sooner rather that wait to find out. I do not know how many times I have been pilloried for stating this. The reality is you do not know until you know. I do not care if one or the other says they enjoy/like/love sex before. The fact is that sex encompasses many different things. You never know until you find out which is one of the reasons why I can't believe that anyone waits for whatever reason until they are married to have sex. Sex is central to the marriage and in fact the reason why we date and marry other people. To wait until you have made a legal commitment to find out is a fools game.


i dont think it makes a damned bit of difference. if it did, then why do we hear so MANY stories about how the sex was great before marriage, then tapered off later? 

if anything, it reinforces the idea that sexual compatibility is something that must be cultivated by both spouses. in my own marriage, sex was absolutely terrible for the few weeks we knew each other before marriage and for the first couple years. 

for the past 6 years or so, however, sex has been fantastic, passionate spontaneous, and frequent. 

like everything, if it is not improving, it is getting worse. complacency inevitably results in deterioration.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i dont think it makes a damned bit of difference. if it did, then why do we hear so MANY stories about how the sex was great before marriage, then tapered off later?
> 
> if anything, it reinforces the idea that sexual compatibility is something that must be cultivated by both spouses. in my own marriage, sex was absolutely terrible for the few weeks we knew each other before marriage and for the first couple years.
> 
> ...


I disagree that is doesn't make a damned bit of difference. As I said sex is multi-faceted, it encompasses more than simply frequency. Which is exactly why you see so many stories about it tapering off over time. All of the other facets often can and do affect the frequency. 

Is it not better to find out ahead of time that you are too large, or too small? Is it not better to find out ahead of time that she likes what you like or vice versa? It is great that you enjoy enough sexual compatibility with your spouse to have frequent and enjoyable sex. But you must remember, you are not everyone else. 
But some, many or perhaps even most couples are simply not sexually compatible. One wants it more than the other, one wants something the other cannot or will not provide. 
Cultivating sexual compatibility also requires the dedication and effort of both partners and if one partner doesn't need sex nor desire it as much as the other, they are probably not going to put much effort into cultivating something they do not desire.
Another reality is that we all change. Regardless of what some may think. Which similarly affects sexual compatibility. One, or the other, or both of you may put on 50lbs, you may be disfigured, your spouse may be disfigured. They may not be disfigured but feel they have been disfigured, your sexual needs have changed, the list goes on.
So does any of that make knowing sooner, rather than later better? I say yes, because you can eliminate, off the bat, incompatible people from your life. It is not a guarantee that the person you choose will remain a sexual dynamo or meet your needs until one of you die. But if you start off on the same page it is often easier to move forward together, than it is when you on the last page and they haven't even picked up the book yet.
One other thing, if I recall, you are a soldier and have spoken about deploying a lot. If so, you are absent from your spouse for periods of time. The rich and fulfilling sex life you enjoy when are not absent may be a result of that. There is nothing wrong with that, that is good. I hope it continues, but it may have an impact on frequency. Every day for six months and never for six months. Still works out to every other day.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

poida said:


> Im saying that the vast majority of women are much the same in respect to sex frequency. To leave for another woman will generally put you back in the same place.
> 
> Im saying its a modern society predicament.
> 
> ...


I do not disagree with much of what you are saying. However 20 years is a rather long period of time. I am sure that these thoughts have crossed the OP.s mind. To simply advise him to double down doing the things that have already failed might not be the best advice.

One other thing, is that the OP may be a 1%er himself. Does he not have an obligation to himself to search for someone similar? He may find himself back where he started, or he may find exactly what he is looking for or he may find something in between. The fact is we end up with whatever we accept.
My own experience of having been married for 24 years to a woman who withdrew sexually over time, despite any effort on my part, was that there are plenty of women willing to enjoy a sexual relationship because they enjoy it just as much as men do, sometimes even more. You end up with whatever it is you are willing to accept.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm calling BS on this one. The number of women who will accept 1x per week is also 1%. This forum is full of women who desire a lot of sex. My LD wife is happy with 1x per week but not when she was younger than 45. 1 x per week right out of the gate is asexual.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

being gone on deployments and TDY made absolutely no difference until i started changing things. it was actually worse. its not like its easy to cultivate a strong sexuality from nothing when you only have a week to do so before you are gone for another month or two. from everything i have seen and read, most people would find that damned near impossible. for my part, i had no problem fighting for it. i gave my wife reasons to work with me, and showed my willingness and enthusiasm in doing the same. 

being home for two straight years didnt change things either. i viewed it as a constant thing that needs constant attention. i have always, and will always, seek to find out what turns my wife on. similarly, i will constantly find ways to motivate her to put in effort. 

i dont stop cultivating sexual compatibility when i deploy either. i keep it building, burning. when i am home, its usually two or three times a day, more if you count non-PIV.

in nearly every sexless marriage situation i have seen, its usually BOTH partners who are unwilling to do something to improve their situation. whether its the LD spouse being unwilling to put effort into sex, or the HD spouse being unwilling to "rock the boat". 

the ONLY reason my wife and i are sexually compatible today is because we both put a lot of effort into being so. i know that i am not "everyone else". i dont do the same things everyone else does, and i get different results than everyone else gets.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm calling BS on this one. The number of women who will accept 1x per week is also 1%. This forum is full of women who desire a lot of sex. My LD wife is happy with 1x per week but not when she was younger than 45. 1 x per week right out of the gate is asexual.


my wife wanted once every month to three months, right out of the gate...

i dont think she would accept once per month today though. not enough.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

OP - would highly suggest you check out the Married Red Pill Reddit forum as well. My standard disclaimer is that I don't agree with all of it but there are a lot of kernels of truth in there too. At its core it's about owning your responsibility in what you can control and seeking constant self-improvement. It's about understanding the inherent laws of attraction work. It can be pretty complementary to some of the other books that others here have suggested (a bit cruder take if you will). Pick through the pieces that resonate with you and your specific relationship/issues.

My suggest - you have to do some real self-reflection about your role in this and focus on you. MRP could help you with this. I'm not saying your wife has been fair to you but really that doesn't matter if your goal is to rekindle a satisfying relationship with this person. You can't control or negotiate your wife's desire. Whatever her baseline is is what it is. Infrequent (or just frequent enough) vanilla sex to pacify you isn't what you want. Ultimately you can only control yourself, and through self-improvement you'll become a better person. Cherry on top if your wife comes around and finds attraction to that kind of man.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> . in my own marriage, sex was absolutely terrible for the few weeks we knew each other before marriage and for the first couple years.


I am not sure if this was some sort of arranged marriage or not. If it was, something to keep in mind is that few people in western society would accept anything of the sort, unless there was some sort of religious and familial expectations attached to it. Even then, the learning curve of starting from truly not knowing a thing about the other person, would be rather steep. In such instances, I would imagine sex with that person would be somewhat lower on the list than otherwise. Then there are the issues that arise from what they know coming into it. If for instance, her mother told her to be chaste, that may have played into it. As she became more familiar with you, she may have become more open about it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> I am not sure if this was some sort of arranged marriage or not. If it was, something to keep in mind is that few people in western society would accept anything of the sort, unless there was some sort of religious and familial expectations attached to it. Even then, the learning curve of starting from truly not knowing a thing about the other person, would be rather steep. In such instances, I would imagine sex with that person would be somewhat lower on the list than otherwise. Then there are the issues that arise from what they know coming into it. If for instance, her mother told her to be chaste, that may have played into it. *As she became more familiar with you, she may have become more open about it.*


just the opposite. when we got married, she saw me as more dangerous. because then i was "family". even refused to leave me alone with our daughter for the first year of her life. another thing we had to work through. 

not an arranged marriage. just two 21 year olds jumping into marriage after about five dates.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Lots of people in the same predicament. It rarely gets better.
> 
> She may just have low libido, and that rarely changes.
> 
> One thing though - is she on any medications, from birth control to anti-depressants that could be affecting her sex drive?


From what I see, it's a very common problem I agree. 

No Meds..........not a medical issue


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> just the opposite. when we got married, she saw me as more dangerous. because then i was "family". even refused to leave me alone with our daughter for the first year of her life. another thing we had to work through.
> 
> not an arranged marriage. just two 21 year olds jumping into marriage after about five dates.


Ok, so then my first question would be why? I mean I am glad it seems to have worked out for you, but why? She saw you as more dangerous because you were family? What kind of "family" did she come from that she would view you as more dangerous?


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> What is your actual average frequency when she is not under the threat of you leaving?


Well, she is not often under threat just to make that clear. It's probably got to that point about 4-5 times in 20 years.

Frequency? Although I have repeatedly said that I need 2-3 times a week (2 being a minimum) it is very rare to even get twice. So, in order to really know I literally started keeping track. Average = 1/week


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

You have two choices. 

Accept who she is sexually and move on together.

Accept who she is sexually and move on apart.

The solution you want, where she comes around to your way of thinking, does not exist.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> Ok, so then my first question would be why? I mean I am glad it seems to have worked out for you, but why? She saw you as more dangerous because you were family? What kind of "family" did she come from that she would view you as more dangerous?


well, her father raped her when she was growing up, so...

as to why? seemed like a good idea at the time. i figured i would learn to fall in love with her and vise versa, so that's what i set out to do. took some doing, but it worked. nowadays, there isn't a single thing that could likely shake us. we have been through every single situation that often leads to a divorce, save for the death of a parent.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Cletus said:


> You have two choices.
> 
> Accept who she is sexually and move on together.
> 
> ...


third option: change.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> well, her father raped her when she was growing up, so...
> Well that makes sense, and it also makes sense as to why she might be less than willing to have sex at all. As I said she had to get to know you first, to come to feel safe with you
> as to why? seemed like a good idea at the time. i figured i would learn to fall in love with her and vise versa, so that's what i set out to do. took some doing, but it worked. nowadays, there isn't a single thing that could likely shake us. we have been through every single situation that often leads to a divorce, save for the death of a parent.


That is great. While you are not alone, you are still one of the few people to have this type of start work to your benefit. But absent the particular circumstances involved in your start up, the more probable outcome would have been divorce in short order. In many ways your story is just one of the perfect alignment of the various elements, but that is not often the case.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> third option: change.


Advocating change as a likely solution is like telling your son his future lies in the NBA. Sure, it happens.

Although in one respect, I agree. If he wants to stay happily married, he will have to change the only thing over which he has any power - himself.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> third option: change.


Change what? You don't seem to realize that your experience and your story are not the OPs. He has been married for 20 years. Do you not think he has changed during this time? Do you not think she has not changed over this time? Do you not realize that it takes TWO people to make it work and thus far one of them has shown no inclination to make any effort at all.
But FTR, Cletus did suggest he change when he said: "Accept who she is sexually and move on together." Because this would involve the OP changing his wants to accommodate her lack of desire.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Ynot said:


> Your post reinforced my thinking that it is better to find out sooner rather that wait to find out. I do not know how many times I have been pilloried for stating this. The reality is you do not know until you know. I do not care if one or the other says they enjoy/like/love sex before. The fact is that sex encompasses many different things. You never know until you find out which is one of the reasons why I can't believe that anyone waits for whatever reason until they are married to have sex. Sex is central to the marriage and in fact the reason why we date and marry other people. To wait until you have made a legal commitment to find out is a fools game.


I would definitely agree that it would be great to find out beforehand but that's not always possible. Even if we dated for 6 months, then had sex, dated for another year before getting married..........would it have made a difference? Things were great for the first couple of years anyways. 

On the other hand I do believe living by bible based standards has many many benefits to a marriage. Their is a lot practical wisdom I believe........whether one is religious or not.

Cheers, 

Oasis649


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> That is great. While you are not alone, you are still one of the few people to have this type of start work to your benefit. But absent the particular circumstances involved in your start up, the more probable outcome would have been divorce in short order. In many ways your story is just one of the perfect alignment of the various elements, but that is not often the case.


i cannot see my relationship as a perfect alignment of anything... except, maybe, a perfect recipe for disaster. we have gone through nearly everything that causes relationships to fail. the only difference between us and everyone else out there was that i changed, then she changed. 

people rarely change. they always want the other person to change first. but that doesn't work.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Honestly, the only way that things will change is if you change something.

Your wife won't change. She's had years to change and so far that hasn't happened.

So, as was already noted, you have a few options available to you.

I approach things in 5-year chunks. If I imagine myself 5 years from now, all things remaining the same, will I be happy or miserable?

You should ask yourself the same and act accordingly.

And don't threaten to leave or end the M unless you're ready to start packing. Empty threats are meaningless.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Advocating change as a likely solution is like telling your son his future lies in the NBA. Sure, it happens.
> 
> Although in one respect, I agree. If he wants to stay happily married, he will have to change the only thing over which he has any power - himself.


well, the first sentence is false equivalency. the two are nothing alike. 

as for the second sentence... well, yeah, thats what i have been saying for a long time. everyone always gives examples of circumstance as why things cannot change. but changing ones self is ALWAYS an option.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i cannot see my relationship as a perfect alignment of anything... except, maybe, a perfect recipe for disaster. we have gone through nearly everything that causes relationships to fail. the only difference between us and everyone else out there was that i changed, then she changed.
> 
> people rarely change. they always want the other person to change first. but that doesn't work.


People ALWAYS change. Whether they want to or not. It is just that sometimes those changes are not always beneficial to whatever relationship we happen to find ourselves in at the moment. 
It just happens that in your case you both changed in the same direction. When I said it was the perfect alignment that is what I was referring to. Because you are correct, it was a recipe for disaster, but I can assure you, you are not that special. You stumbled into a good thing, I don't hold that against you, but your arrogance in imagining you are somehow special because of it is another thing.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> ...


I have a different perspective. I was in a similar situation, but closer to 40 years of marriage and empty nest. My wife and I discussed sex before marriage and it stressed that oral sex was important to me, but we did have intercourse prior to marriage. My wife told me that oral sex was too intimate prior to marriage. After marriage, it became to gross and perverted. Sex tamed after the birth of two children and evaporated into a classic sex starved marriage in our late 50's. 

I too had reached my limit when she started to emotionally abuse me after sex.

At that point, I decided to change myself for the better. I read just about every relationship book, I could get my hands on. I lost weight, got in shape, restarted hobbies I had given up in my youth. I also started to train for various endurance athletic events (half marathons, century bike rides, mountain climbing).

In my reading 3 books really changed me. (1) MW Davis, the Sex Starved Marriage, (2) Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy, (3) Chapman's 5 languages of Love. I recommend you read and study all three. They changed me, but more importantly they made me understand that I was a big part of the problem with my wife. I was codependent and emotionally needy, which was pushing her away. I was doing stupid covert contracts to try to get the sex I wanted and she could spot them a mile away. I was not communicating my love for her in her love languages. 

When I changed myself and how I treated my wife so that she started to feel cherished and loved in her love languages, she started to change how she felt about me. Then with the help of a great sex therapist/marriage counselor, we rebuilt our marriage.

Your mileage may vary.

Good luck.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> People ALWAYS change. Whether they want to or not. It is just that sometimes those changes are not always beneficial to whatever relationship we happen to find ourselves in at the moment.
> It just happens that in your case you both changed in the same direction. When I said it was the perfect alignment that is what I was referring to. Because you are correct, it was a recipe for disaster, but I can assure you, you are not that special. You stumbled into a good thing, I don't hold that against you, but your arrogance in imagining you are somehow special because of it is another thing.


people change all the time, but rarely for a purpose. they usually change based on how they feel, not based on where they want to go. they are tired, so they don't exercise and get fat. their spouse no longer wants to have sex with them. they are stressed, so they want to unwind in front of the TV. they make a habit of ignoring their spouse, so their spouse seeks attention elsewhere. they are anxious, so they drink until it is such a habit that their spouse stops feeling attracted to them. they feel ecstatic, so they get married, only to divorce when the ecstasy wears off. they walk through life being led by how they feel. 

every time i see someone change based on where they want to go instead of how they feel, their situation changes in their favor. they usually find that they always had far more influence than they had originally thought. 

as for me being special, well... i am odd. call me arrogant if you want. i believe that my life is in its largest part a result of my actions. when i got up and went, my wife followed. if she hadn't, i still would have gone.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Hello All,

First off I wanted to thank everybody for their time and responses. While I cant comment/reply on each and every post I can assure you that I read them all and appreciate the input.

I wanted to add something to the whole story. I know everybody is busy these days. We run a busy/stressful business, have two kids 9/7, hobbies, church, sports etc. And I know that my wife is very stressed from work (even though she works for me, I don't really want her to, and to be honest she really doesn't have to). We had planned to shut our business down in the next year and semi retire early. This is what I want to do because I believe our business is a huge strain on our family, marriage, and sex life. While I do honestly believe that this will "help", I don't think it will be the solution. When we semi retire and move to a new location I think that the same problem will follow.

One of the most common excuses I get is "I'm tired". Well, do I "consistently" take the day off work because I am tired? Do I regularly let my kids sleep in late for school because they are tired? Do we drop commitments we have made (dinner plans, parties, etc) because we are tired? Do I skip out of family responsibilities or cancel out of things that I know are important to her. No, almost never. Maybe a one time thing or an exception to the rule would I ever bail on something due to being tired. Because if something is important to you, you suck it up and do it tired or not. I feel after 20 years of telling somebody how important this is, that I need this, being tired is not an excuse. I'm tired every damn day but I still do things that I don't want to do because they are important to my wife, friends, kids. Another reason I call B.S on the "tired card" is............well we go on vacation for 2 weeks without a care in world, lots of rest and relaxation...............and it's still the same. 

I tired to confront the tired card in many different ways. Sex earlier in the evening before she gets tired...........say before watching TV and having a glass of wine. Doesn't help, or maybe it does help me and that's the only reason I get it once a week? Asking for sex during the day was a big one too. That one got shot down because "your mom is downstairs" (parents used to live downstairs, only for a year). Or, kids are home (before our daughter was in school). Well, parents have been gone for 3 years, both kids in school full time...........no difference. Lately it's been, the kids have friends over, or in the am it's the kids are going to be up soon. Apparently she has had the lock removed from our bedroom or something? 

One more excuse that I find very upsetting....I am busy and I don't have the time. Listen, some of you out there might have some marathon sex (lucky you). Not us, it's pretty damn quick with pretty much non-existent foreplay which is not my choice (and yes, I find this troubling and it's another issue). So it's not exactly like our sex is time consuming if you know what I mean. I mean seriously, in the grand scheme of things there is nothing you can drop out of your whole week for 5-10 minutes. That alone would solve the problem. We both work from home and there is nobody around. It's not like we don't have the opportunity to do it at any time during the day and yet out of 5 weekdays a week she can't "find the time" for a quickie here or there? For me, its just another excuse.

I know a lot of other people are in my same circumstance. I want to make it perfectly clear that this is not just about the act of sex itself. It also has a lot to do with the rejection or at least it does for me personally. I have mentioned that I am an extremely loyal person. I work hard and I would do anything for the people close to me....anything. In fact, I would say it's one of my faults. I give so much and often don't get the reciprocation. So for me to work so hard for my wife and all she has to do is take 10 more minutes out of here week, it hurts. I resent her for it. I know this isn't good and I try to push those feelings down and not dwell on them. I just couldn't imagine doing that to somebody I love. That I have something within my power to make them happy and yet I refuse to do it. It bothers me greatly.

I am going to make a play with a little bit of risk but after 20 years at this point I got nothing to lose. Right now she knows I am furious about the situation as it blew up this weekend. I've been pretty distant the last couple of days, working (really just staying away), no dishes, not eating supper with the family (actually not eating at all), coming to bed late, so she knows I'm serious this time. I have dropped the hammer that "I can't do this anymore" and I have basically said that I have had enough and need to move on. While all of the above is true it's really not what I "want". But I have pretty much made the decision that this is it.........I will leave and move on. I am going to suggest...........morning sex as an option and really working at it. Set the alarm 10 mins early and have at er. Quickies here and there when possible/or required. Mid day sex. I believe the above will completely destroy the tired/no time argument. And I won't put everything on her. I would be willing to try anything she suggest, counselling, whatever. Regardless, all the cards are going on the table.

Don't know if it's the right play but I'm just so tired of it all. It's my play and my last effort.

Oasis649


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> New to the forum and first time poster.
> 
> I will try to give some pertinent background information but keep it short.
> 
> ...


my advice: stop meeting her love languages. tell her that you will intentionally try to make her feel equally as neglected as you feel, unless and/or until she is willing to do what you need from her in order for YOU to not feel neglected. then, do exactly that. instead of spending time on trying to meet her needs, go do something you enjoy. 

try it for just a week. if she does not notice, then you are not meeting her needs. if that is the case, you have a tougher fight ahead, but not insurmountable...


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> I have a different perspective. I was in a similar situation, but closer to 40 years of marriage and empty nest. My wife and I discussed sex before marriage and it stressed that oral sex was important to me, but we did have intercourse prior to marriage. My wife told me that oral sex was too intimate prior to marriage. After marriage, it became to gross and perverted. Sex tamed after the birth of two children and evaporated into a classic sex starved marriage in our late 50's.
> 
> I too had reached my limit when she started to emotionally abuse me after sex.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed reply. I will follow up on some of your good advise. Too bad you didn't have those books a few years earlier.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Oasis649 said:


> I would definitely agree that it would be great to find out beforehand but that's not always possible. Even if we dated for 6 months, then had sex, dated for another year before getting married..........would it have made a difference? Things were great for the first couple of years anyways.
> 
> On the other hand I do believe *living by bible based standards *has many many benefits to a marriage. Their is a lot practical wisdom I believe........whether one is religious or not.
> 
> ...


If you and your wife are true Christians that adhere to what the Bible says, maybe your wife should actually READ it. Start with 1 Corinthians 7. Her body should belong to you, and yours to her. There is no reason to withhold sex from your spouse unless it's due to health reasons, or to meditate on prayer for a time. She has to understand this, and do her part to ensure the strength of the marriage bond is maintained. You do, too. Maybe you could find a Christian marriage counselor to speak to.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Oasis649 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> First off I wanted to thank everybody for their time and responses. While I cant comment/reply on each and every post I can assure you that I read them all and appreciate the input.
> 
> ...


 @Oasis649, this is just my opinion, but I think you should show your wife this post. It has a lot of raw honesty. 

Have you ever tried raw honesty?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Oasis649 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> First off I wanted to thank everybody for their time and responses. While I cant comment/reply on each and every post I can assure you that I read them all and appreciate the input.
> 
> ...


I didn't read anywhere on this post about you wanting to have sex with your wife for any other reason than you need a warm receptacle for your sperm. If that's not how you intended it then my apologies but here's a word to the wise. If you "Set the alarm 10 mins early and have at er" or make quickie sex a requirement then you're going to get a wife who believes that she's a masturbatory tool to be used by you on demand. She may or may not resent you for it but I can almost guarantee that "starfish" sex will be the best you ever get from her. 

Right now you have 3 choices: 1) accept 1 x per week sex you currently get and focus on other good qualities in your marriage. 2) make changes to YOURSELF that will make you more attractive to your spouse and hopefully inspire her to want to meet your needs. 3) divorce and find someone more sexually compatible. Caveat to 3- there's no guarantee that you'll find someone who meets any of your other needs but you will probably find someone who will have sex with you multiple times a week. 

My opinion.... you and your wife are sexually incompatible. This will never change barring a life changing event. I think you should get divorced. Split your assets and start over with someone more compatible. That's just my 2 cents. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

OP - I'm going to give you a bit of harsh advice here, but a lot of these problems you are having are of your own making. Basically, you tolerated a sex life where your wife dictated the frequency, type, and satisfaction level and you have accepted it.....essentially, she out negotiated you when you didn't stand up for yourself. If you are ready to leave and mean it, then you can cause a renegotiation of the relationship dynamic. Personally, I'd also include all the other things you might want to experience such as oral, anal, public, or anything else in your negotiation. If she doesn't meet your need and never will, and if you're sure it's something you're willing to end your marriage over, then it'll be time to move on. One last thing to remember is that women don't usually like men that are passive sexually and then sulk when they don't get their way. Talking straight forward without shame about what you want opens a lot more doors than asking for permission to change things.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Oasis649 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> First off I wanted to thank everybody for their time and responses. While I cant comment/reply on each and every post I can assure you that I read them all and appreciate the input.
> 
> ...


Oasis, 

It sounds like you are a "Nice Guy" in the Dr. Glover definition of "No More Mr. Nice Guy." What you experienced over the weekend appears to be a "victim puke"-an outpouring of anger after an unmitigated build-up of resentment.

Instead of going the ultimatum route just yet, my suggestion would be to get a copy of NMMNG and determine whether you fit the Nice Guy profile. Indeed, you may be surprised to learn that the problem is not her, it very well may be the guy in the mirror. If that is true, that means you would blow up a 20-year marriage and still have a problem that very likely will carry over into your next relationship.

I know you're at the bitter edge, seeking resolution and validation that you've been denied this aspect of life for 20 years. I get that. 

I know it would be temporarily satisfying to go ballistic this weekend and flush the whole thing down the toilet. If you follow the NMMNG guidance, though, you wind up becoming a better Oasis for yourself. Whether it repairs the problems in your marriage, well, that depends on how your wife reacts to the changes you make. In many cases, it is said that NMMNG sends failed marriages to a long overdue grave. 

It's good that you're motivated to make a change. Now, be thoughtful and instigate the type of change that will really make a difference in your life moving forward.


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## Townes (Jan 31, 2018)

I think if you threaten to leave again but then immediately offer a plan that involves you staying (if you have sex with me in the morning I won't really leave) it'll be seen for what it is: another empty threat. She'll appease you for a while then it'll be back to business as usual. She has you figured out. You're easy for her to manage as is.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> If you are ready to leave and mean it, then you can cause a renegotiation of the relationship dynamic.


I dunno - you just can't negotiate desire. Best he'll get here is appeasement starfish type sex for awhile while he cools down and then expect that too will drop off eventually. They've seemingly had this talk again and again and she doesn't seem to care. The time for talk is probably past...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i once put a couple jars up... filled them with slips of paper. actions my wife took that made me feel loved went into one. actions that my wife took that made me feel unloved went in the other one. once a month, i would count the ones in the good jar and would subtract the same number from bad jar, and burn them both. that way, if she did more good than bad, the bad jar would never be full. then again, the good jar may never get much passed empty either. the idea was that if the bad jar ever filled all the way up so much that i couldn't close the lid, i was getting a divorce. that was the light at the end of my tunnel. i let my wife see it too. she knew what it was for. 

i dont need the jars nowadays. no need to look for a light at the end of the tunnel when you dont feel like your in a tunnel. but, if i were ever feeling like i was just going back and forth again, i would certainly pull them back out. 

sticking to it meant that i would not make a spontaneous decision, and it meant that i would have all of the evidence i needed to make it clear that my best decision was to split. 

just an idea.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I didn't read anywhere on this post about you wanting to have sex with your wife for any other reason than you need a warm receptacle for your sperm


Yeah, I've been reading TAM for a couple of years now and that's usually what men in sexless marriages really want, a warm receptacle for their sperm. 

Not sure what women in sexless marriages really want; random objects stuffed in their vagina? 

I'm guessing things aren't going particularly well in your relationship these days?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> I dunno - you just can't negotiate desire. Best he'll get here is appeasement starfish type sex for awhile while he cools down and then expect that too will drop off eventually. They've seemingly had this talk again and again and she doesn't seem to care. The time for talk is probably past...


Probably.

But then there are cases where the woman has responsive desire (some say that 75% of women are this way); won't make the effort to work with it; could do something about it and really just doesn't understand how important it is to her partner (hard though that may be to believe, it does happen).

The idea is to make sure that's not the case


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Yeah, I've been reading TAM for a couple of years now and that's usually what men in sexless marriages really want, a warm receptacle for their sperm.
> 
> Not sure what women in sexless marriages really want; random objects stuffed in their vagina?


Most of the men and women who post here on TAM mention the magic word.....DESIRE. They want to be sexually wanted by their partners. 

The vast majority mention they want to have quality sex with a passionate partner over starfish sex x times per week. 

These were things I didn't see in OP's posts. He seems to want to have lots of quickie sex with an uninterested partner. 



Buddy400 said:


> I'm guessing things aren't going particularly well in your relationship these days?


I posted an update in the private threads . You can read all about it there. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> people change all the time, but rarely for a purpose. they usually change based on how they feel, not based on where they want to go. they are tired, so they don't exercise and get fat. their spouse no longer wants to have sex with them. they are stressed, so they want to unwind in front of the TV. they make a habit of ignoring their spouse, so their spouse seeks attention elsewhere. they are anxious, so they drink until it is such a habit that their spouse stops feeling attracted to them. they feel ecstatic, so they get married, only to divorce when the ecstasy wears off. they walk through life being led by how they feel.
> 
> every time i see someone change based on where they want to go instead of how they feel, their situation changes in their favor. they usually find that they always had far more influence than they had originally thought.
> 
> as for me being special, well... i am odd. call me arrogant if you want. i believe that my life is in its largest part a result of my actions. when i got up and went, my wife followed. if she hadn't, i still would have gone.


Yep I agree with your first paragraph, but regardless of the motivation, change is inevitable and most definitely the result is sometimes part or all of those things you have listed. 
I also agree with your second paragraph, whenever one chooses to improve themselves there is positive change. Sometimes that positive change includes recognizing the relationship you are in is going no where and it is time to move on.
As for your third paragraph, you are NOT odd. But you are arrogant. The fact is that every person's life is a result of their actions. I am glad that you choose to improve yourself and that it has worked out for you. But the thing you keep forgetting is that last part, " *when i got up and went, my wife followed. if she hadn't, i still would have gone*." IOW, you would have done exactly what many have said here - if she doesn't want to change anything, then leave!
You should be very grateful that your wife was willing to change, because that is not often the case. As I said, you both changed together. You aren't special, you are just like everyone else, except you happened to have stumbled into a good thing. I do not hold it against you, but I really wish you could see things for what they are and stop imagining you are special, because you aren't.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Oasis - I totally get the anger and frustration in your post. It's really hard to stay in a relationship where your needs are so clearly devalued. It's also hard to not let the bitterness that results infect everything else in the relationship. It's a total downward spiral. I honestly cannot see any additional communication as being helpful here - you've told her and she doesn't care (in so far as demonstrated actions/change go). So you're basically left with two options:

1.) Separate / Divorce - hope the grass is greener elsewhere (it just might be!) and that this is 100% on your frigid asexual wife (again - it might be!). Or hope that by following through on the threat (leaving/filing) you'll shock her into coming into her senses and that will somehow generate a lasting desire.

2) Take a step back and really evaluate what's going on with your relationship. Go detective mode and try to understand your wife and how this came to be. Is she bitter about something(s) and resentful and withholding sex as leverage or a sending a message? Is there inequality in someway in your relationship? Do you know what her core needs are and are you sure you're meeting them? What kind of husband/father/leader are you? Have you maintained your health, hygiene, and appearance within reasonable levels? Are you sure she's still physically attracted to you? 

Us men tend to simplify things and look at the totality of the package we offer (good provider? check. great father? check. loving supportive husband? check...) and assume this plus marriage vows mean that our wife should always adore us and meet our physical needs. Fair or unfair that isn't how this works sometimes. Some wives are puzzles that you need to solve for to understand what unlocks their desire. After 20 years you've likely both fallen into ruts and traps and accumulated hundreds of slights with each other that really add up.

If you still want to fight for a relationship with your wife i'd recommend putting a stop to initiating, threats and otherwise unhelpful communication (including continued excessive conversation about the issues and any rejection tantrums). Take a pause to assess your relationship, wives needs and yourself for improvement. Make a plan to improve in all aspects of your life (not just sex or driven by the goal of more sex). Execute your plan.

If after a reasonable amount of time (months, not weeks) you don't sense a crack or thaw on this then maybe divorce is right. The good news is that you'll be well on your way to being a better man and readying yourself for your next relationship.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> Yep I agree with your first paragraph, but regardless of the motivation, change is inevitable and most definitely the result is sometimes part or all of those things you have listed.
> I also agree with your second paragraph, whenever one chooses to improve themselves there is positive change. Sometimes that positive change includes recognizing the relationship you are in is going no where and it is time to move on.
> As for your third paragraph, you are NOT odd. But you are arrogant. The fact is that every person's life is a result of their actions. I am glad that you choose to improve yourself and that it has worked out for you. But the thing you keep forgetting is that last part, " *when i got up and went, my wife followed. if she hadn't, i still would have gone*." IOW, you would have done exactly what many have said here - if she doesn't want to change anything, then leave!
> You should be very grateful that your wife was willing to change, because that is not often the case. As I said, you both changed together. You aren't special, you are just like everyone else, except you happened to have stumbled into a good thing. I do not hold it against you, but I really wish you could see things for what they are and stop imagining you are special, because you aren't.


ok, so im exactly like everyone else. so they can get the same results, right? 

im not even sure why you are hell bent on calling me arrogant. i have told plenty of people that they should just file for divorce. but, for the ones that want to try whatever they can, i tell them to try some of the things that i have seen work in my own marriage and many others. because truth be told, it is NOT what they have been doing all along. if they want to just bail, then they can bail. if, however, they want to try changing their marriage first, then they have to change what they do. OP, for instance, seems like he is JUST NOW getting to the point where he is willing to do something different. after 20 years, he seems like he wants to do something radically different from what he has been doing all along. that is a long time to live with insanity. in his own words, he now finds himself where i was, with "nothing to lose". nothing worth keeping, anyway. 

if that is arrogant, then so be it. ill gladly take arrogant over ineffective and/or defeated.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> ok, so im exactly like everyone else. so they can get the same results, right?
> 
> im not even sure why you are hell bent on calling me arrogant. i have told plenty of people that they should just file for divorce. but, for the ones that want to try whatever they can, i tell them to try some of the things that i have seen work in my own marriage and many others. because truth be told, it is NOT what they have been doing all along. if they want to just bail, then they can bail. if, however, they want to try changing their marriage first, then they have to change what they do. OP, for instance, seems like he is JUST NOW getting to the point where he is willing to do something different. after 20 years, he seems like he wants to do something radically different from what he has been doing all along. that is a long time to live with insanity. in his own words, he now finds himself where i was, with "nothing to lose". nothing worth keeping, anyway.
> 
> if that is arrogant, then so be it. ill gladly take arrogant over ineffective and/or defeated.


It isn't your advice that is arrogant, it the fact that you think you are special. You aren't. 
As to the OP I am sure (at least I hope) he has tried to improve himself over the past 20 years. It isn't as if this situation arose overnight. He posted a whole litany of various things he has done over the years, so your advise to "change" because you changed and it worked for you is wreaking of arrogance. Then you proceeded to list some of the reasons why your situation has improved, none of which to my knowledge applies to the OP or his W. As I said you stumbled into a good thing. I am happy for you. I just wish you would understand that you should be grateful and not boastful.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

BigDigg said:


> I dunno - you just can't negotiate desire. Best he'll get here is appeasement starfish type sex for awhile while he cools down and then expect that too will drop off eventually. They've seemingly had this talk again and again and she doesn't seem to care. The time for talk is probably past...


You're right, but he can fundamentally change himself by becoming assertive and that can change her desire for him. That's why he has to be willing to actually D over it for it to work since women can smell BS in these situations and they never respect the man that tries it. Being passive all these years has to be a major killer for her libido...but he can change his passive attitude. I don't think he actually will, especially if he accepts starfish sex (this is a "poop" test that when guys accept causes women to lose respect for their husband), but it is possible.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> You're right, but he can fundamentally change himself by becoming assertive and that can change her desire for him.


Could happen however that assumes that the root cause here is that he's some Beta pushover type. If he is and that's the major cause, then yes this could raise her respect and maybe even desire. Would have to be accompanied with other changes as well to stick and permanently change that dynamic. 

If it's not that then she'll probably feign interest in changing and ride it out. No long-term stick and he's probably worse off. If she has a negative opinion of him then she'll likely be annoyed and maybe even agree to divorce (last straw).

Need to get to the root cause...


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

His posts show he's completely a beta type. He's tolerated a bad sex life for his entire marriage, talked about it and settled for whatever scraps she'd throw him, and now would tolerate anything as long as it was more frequent. There might be more to the equation, but this is definitely part of his problem.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Luvher4life said:


> If you and your wife are true Christians that adhere to what the Bible says, maybe your wife should actually READ it. Start with 1 Corinthians 7. Her body should belong to you, and yours to her. There is no reason to withhold sex from your spouse unless it's due to health reasons, or to meditate on prayer for a time. She has to understand this, and do her part to ensure the strength of the marriage bond is maintained. You do, too. Maybe you could find a Christian marriage counselor to speak to.



We are both quite familiar with those scriptures but it is a little subjective and not clear black and white. One persons view of “rendering your due” will differ from another’s. Regardless, entering into a monogamous relationship with a person and limiting them to a single sexual partner and then denying them sex is not right


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Most of the men and women who post here on TAM mention the magic word.....DESIRE. They want to be sexually wanted by their partners.
> 
> The vast majority mention they want to have quality sex with a passionate partner over starfish sex x times per week.
> 
> ...


From my experience here, men such as the OP are deserving of the benefit of the doubt.

The "warm receptacle" idea is often used by refusing wives to denigrate their spouse's needs. Usually, in my experience, unjustly.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> His posts show he's completely a beta type. He's tolerated a bad sex life for his entire marriage, talked about it and settled for whatever scraps she'd throw him, and now would tolerate anything as long as it was more frequent. There might be more to the equation, but this is definitely part of his problem.


Only in a universe where the root of the problem is in his wife's desire for him, as opposed to his wife's overall desire for sex, period. 

This is the point on which too many spouses waste decades - trying to fix something in their self that was never broken nor the cause of the problem in the first place. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Satya said:


> @Oasis649, this is just my opinion, but I think you should show your wife this post. It has a lot of raw honesty.
> 
> Have you ever tried raw honesty?


I’ve been very helpful nest and up front. But perhaps showing my wife that post would do some good. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> It isn't your advice that is arrogant, it the fact that you think you are special. You aren't.
> As to the OP I am sure (at least I hope) he has tried to improve himself over the past 20 years. It isn't as if this situation arose overnight. He posted a whole litany of various things he has done over the years, so your advise to "change" because you changed and it worked for you is wreaking of arrogance. Then you proceeded to list some of the reasons why your situation has improved, none of which to my knowledge applies to the OP or his W. As I said you stumbled into a good thing. I am happy for you. I just wish you would understand that you should be grateful and not boastful.


go back and read what OP wrote in his first post. all of the things he has done. from what i have read, he has spent the last 20 years busting his hump to do whatever he can for his wife, while talking about how much he needs sex. basically, whining about it but providing no reason for her to show him more desire, other than to shut him up. she doesnt need to show him desire to get him to be a good husband. he is already doing that. nor to get him to be a good father, he has always been doing that. the ONLY reason i have seen from his own posts that she will have sex with him is just to shut him up because he keeps talking about it. keeps pushing. keeps WHINING. i keep using that word, whining, because im pretty sure that is how she sees it. 

i keep saying that anybody is capable of change. anyone is capable of doing what i did when my marriage faced any of the following issues: verbal abuse, emotional abuse, infidelity, financial infidelity, dishonesty, physical abuse, chronic illness, long and frequent periods spent away from home, living with terribly destructive family members, mental illness, life changing hospitalizations, erectile dysfunction, alcohol abuse, constant fear of losing a loved one, years of miscarriage after miscarriage, the resulting depression, etc. the list could go on. and i keep saying the same thing about all of it, that ANYONE can do what i did, anyone can approach it with the same mentality. 

but sure, keep accusing me of believing that i am a special unicorn, and then calling me arrogant for what YOU accuse me of believing. you sound like the kind of person who would call me arrogant for telling people who have failed multiple times at learning a foreign language that their is a much easier and effective way of doing it, even though i have failed myself many times before i learned the effective way. i have never claimed to fart rainbows, but i have claimed to approach life with a different mindset than what i typically see. 

i would still rather accept "arrogant" than "doesn't work".


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> go back and read what OP wrote in his first post. all of the things he has done. from what i have read, he has spent the last 20 years busting his hump to do whatever he can for his wife, while talking about how much he needs sex. basically, whining about it but providing no reason for her to show him more desire, other than to shut him up. she doesnt need to show him desire to get him to be a good husband. he is already doing that. nor to get him to be a good father, he has always been doing that. the ONLY reason i have seen from his own posts that she will have sex with him is just to shut him up because he keeps talking about it. keeps pushing. keeps WHINING. i keep using that word, whining, because im pretty sure that is how she sees it.
> 
> i keep saying that anybody is capable of change. anyone is capable of doing what i did when my marriage faced any of the following issues: verbal abuse, emotional abuse, infidelity, financial infidelity, dishonesty, physical abuse, chronic illness, long and frequent periods spent away from home, living with terribly destructive family members, mental illness, life changing hospitalizations, erectile dysfunction, alcohol abuse, constant fear of losing a loved one, years of miscarriage after miscarriage, the resulting depression, etc. the list could go on. and i keep saying the same thing about all of it, that ANYONE can do what i did, anyone can approach it with the same mentality.
> 
> ...


I am glad that you got around to finally giving some advice beyond the generic "change" mantra that you have repeated throughout this thread.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Only in a universe where the root of the problem is in his wife's desire for him, as opposed to his wife's overall desire for sex, period.
> 
> This is the point on which too many spouses waste decades - trying to fix something in their self that was never broken nor the cause of the problem in the first place.
> 
> ...


But he's not assertive sexually so we can figure that part of the problem and there may also be more. If he was able to be assertive sexually then he'd know very quickly whether the problem was with him or his wife. If she's truly LD then there is nothing he can do. But in my experience women that are LD with their former husbands aren't LD with me, so I don't completely believe that LD story. I don't recommend anyone wasting decades because that's also a sign of a passive person. But everyone should learn to advocate for their needs and not accept less than the standard they are happy with.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Lila said:


> I didn't read anywhere on this post about you wanting to have sex with your wife for any other reason than you need a warm receptacle for your sperm. If that's not how you intended it then my apologies but here's a word to the wise. If you "Set the alarm 10 mins early and have at er" or make quickie sex a requirement then you're going to get a wife who believes that she's a masturbatory tool to be used by you on demand. She may or may not resent you for it but I can almost guarantee that "starfish" sex will be the best you ever get from her.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Hi. I think you missed my point and the context. I made reference to 10 min morning sex and a quickie because my wife complains she has no time. I absolutely hate quickies (maybe in certain circumstances) but if that’s all she has time for and is willing to do to top up the quantity than it is better than nothing no? Not sure if it was that post or another but I have made several references to wanting longer sex and more foreplay. I crave for closeness, cuddling, etc with my wife but it’s rare. In fact, I would say that I am more emotional in many ways than my wife when it comes to sex. She is the one that thinks 20 mins is a marathon and wants to get it over with right away, roll over and go to bed. I’m not offended by your insinuation but I just want to make that clear. 

Oasis649


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> OP - I'm going to give you a bit of harsh advice here, but a lot of these problems you are having are of your own making. Basically, you tolerated a sex life where your wife dictated the frequency, type, and satisfaction level and you have accepted it.....essentially, she out negotiated you when you didn't stand up for yourself. If you are ready to leave and mean it, then you can cause a renegotiation of the relationship dynamic. Personally, I'd also include all the other things you might want to experience such as oral, anal, public, or anything else in your negotiation. If she doesn't meet your need and never will, and if you're sure it's something you're willing to end your marriage over, then it'll be time to move on. One last thing to remember is that women don't usually like men that are passive sexually and then sulk when they don't get their way. Talking straight forward without shame about what you want opens a lot more doors than asking for permission to change things.


Hi, I appreciate the your view. I wouldn’t say I tolerated it. I have fought it for many many years in many different ways. There has been 3-4 things that have prevented me from actually leaving. My kids, my loyalty, my faith, and my business (complicated). And I guess that I just didn’t believe that perhaps a little more sex or an extra BJ here or there was worth destroying a family for.

However I have experienced a lot of changes in my life lately. Getting older, having the aches and pains and losing that feeling of immortality that we have when we were young have all changed my view. I have finally decided that it isn’t good enough anymore.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Ynot said:


> I do not disagree with much of what you are saying. However 20 years is a rather long period of time. I am sure that these thoughts have crossed the OP.s mind. To simply advise him to double down doing the things that have already failed might not be the best advice.
> 
> One other thing, is that the OP may be a 1%er himself. Does he not have an obligation to himself to search for someone similar? He may find himself back where he started, or he may find exactly what he is looking for or he may find something in between. The fact is we end up with whatever we accept.
> My own experience of having been married for 24 years to a woman who withdrew sexually over time, despite any effort on my part, was that there are plenty of women willing to enjoy a sexual relationship because they enjoy it just as much as men do, sometimes even more. You end up with whatever it is you are willing to accept.


Good point . Well put.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi. I think you missed my point and the context. I made reference to 10 min morning sex and a quickie because my wife complains she has no time. I absolutely hate quickies (maybe in certain circumstances) but if that’s all she has time for and is willing to do to top up the quantity than it is better than nothing no? Not sure if it was that post or another but I have made several references to wanting longer sex and more foreplay. I crave for closeness, cuddling, etc with my wife but it’s rare. In fact, I would say that I am more emotional in many ways than my wife when it comes to sex. She is the one that thinks 20 mins is a marathon and wants to get it over with right away, roll over and go to bed. I’m not offended by your insinuation but I just want to make that clear.
> 
> Oasis649


so, what do you do for your wife that she would feel hurt to lose?


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Townes said:


> I think if you threaten to leave again but then immediately offer a plan that involves you staying (if you have sex with me in the morning I won't really leave) it'll be seen for what it is: another empty threat. She'll appease you for a while then it'll be back to business as usual. She has you figured out. You're easy for her to manage as is.


No, it is not a I’m leaving but am willing to stay if .............in the morning. My wife actually tried to go that route today with me. I basically said “this is really serious and if you think we can just have sex and things will go back to normal you are delusional. No, the cards are finally on the table now. I have made it perfectly clear that this is not an empty threat and already informed her of my plans to leave and started making arrangements to do so. I’m staying that course and this time I am not going to waiver on this


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

MarriedTex said:


> Oasis,
> 
> It sounds like you are a "Nice Guy" in the Dr. Glover definition of "No More Mr. Nice Guy." What you experienced over the weekend appears to be a "victim puke"-an outpouring of anger after an unmitigated build-up of resentment.


I purchased that book yesterday


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

that’s a great idea @As'laDain 

Thanks,

Oasis649


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Oasis649 said:


> ....I am going to make a play with a little bit of risk but after 20 years at this point I got nothing to lose. Right now she knows I am furious about the situation as it blew up this weekend. *I've been pretty distant the last couple of days, working (really just staying away), no dishes, not eating supper with the family (actually not eating at all), coming to bed late, so she knows I'm serious this time.* I have dropped the hammer that "I can't do this anymore" and I have basically said that I have had enough and need to move on. While all of the above is true it's really not what I "want".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think it is the right play.

Your first part sounds like a juvenile approach to "taking your ball home" or "holding your breath until you turn blue." 

The last part above sounds like an ultimatum where you tell your wife you are leaving until she does everything you want, your way, that she has over the past 20 years shown you she doesn't want to do. In such an obvious power play, do you really suppose she will have a moment of insight and say or with a threat like that, I will change 20 years of approach. 

Why don't you sit down with her. Tell her your needs aren't getting met. Tell her that you expect that her needs are not being met and that you are so stuck you don't know how to meet her needs, even though you want to and you want to change yourself so that the two of you can be happy. Then ask her if the two of you can go to marriage counseling together. I'll be the probability of that course of action succeeding with be much higher.

Good luck.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi. I think you missed my point and the context. I made reference to 10 min morning sex and a quickie because my wife complains she has no time. I absolutely hate quickies (maybe in certain circumstances) but if that’s all she has time for and is willing to do to top up the quantity than it is better than nothing no? Not sure if it was that post or another but I have made several references to wanting longer sex and more foreplay. I crave for closeness, cuddling, etc with my wife but it’s rare. In fact, I would say that I am more emotional in many ways than my wife when it comes to sex. She is the one that thinks 20 mins is a marathon and wants to get it over with right away, roll over and go to bed. I’m not offended by your insinuation but I just want to make that clear.
> 
> Oasis649


Thanks for clarifying. The way the other post sounded as if you'd be happy if she rolled over in the morning, slathered on the lube, and said "go for it" while she caught up with facebook on her phone. Regardless, a genuine sexual connection with your wife may not be possible. You two may be incompatible in that department. 

You mention sex 1 x per week now. Does she enjoy it? Does she orgasm?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Lila said:


> He seems to want to have lots of quickie sex with an uninterested partner.


Sorry, but you misunderstood my posts then because nothing could be further than the truth. For example:

Post #1

I said we were not having enough quantity/QUALITY of Sex
I reference our sex that is boring, not mixing it up and no PASSION
I mention lingerie and buying a We/Vibe..........not really in the Quicky section

Post #51

I talk about Marathon sex and how lucky people are to get it.
I mention foreplay and that it's not by my choice that there is none.

If you go back and re-read the context of the Quickie I specifically mention my wife's excuse of constantly being tired and as a result that is often what I get. I think Quickies have a time and place but for the most part I can't think of a worse way to have sex. The only reason i mentioned waking up 10 mins early or having a quickie was because in certain cases that's all i am going to be able to get. I will literally walk into my wifes office and say "you fell asleep last night and we were supposed to do things, nobody is around how about now?" and i get the "I'm so busy, i don't have any time, i'm in work mode, etc etc". If I were to object or say ccome on then I get the guilt trip "fine, if you really need it that bad then you can have a quickie".

So to imply that i just want quickies with somebody who in not interested or as another poster basically said "just looking for a place to drop a load" is flat out wrong. I understand it's hard to get what somebody is really trying to convey in a few sentences but I want to make sure that it is understood that that is not my intention whatsoever. I am the one who wants passion, desire, closeness, love and other emotional needs..........and the fact is sex is awesome. Who the hell would want to have sex for 5 minutes when they could have it for another.

I hope that clears that up


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

BigDigg said:


> Oasis - I totally get the anger and frustration in your post. It's really hard to stay in a relationship where your needs are so clearly devalued. It's also hard to not let the bitterness that results infect everything else in the relationship. It's a total downward spiral. I honestly cannot see any additional communication as being helpful here - you've told her and she doesn't care (in so far as demonstrated actions/change go). So you're basically left with two options:


BigDigg, that first paragraph was spot on and you summed up many of my feelings so well.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> Why don't you sit down with her. Tell her your needs aren't getting met. Tell her that you expect that her needs are not being met and that you are so stuck you don't know how to meet her needs, even though you want to and you want to change yourself so that the two of you can be happy.


Believe he has done this repeatedly? That play only works at first and only if there's unconditional love and attraction and usually accompanied by some life change event cause (new kid, etc.). Oasis has been dealing with this for decades with no luck. 

His wife simply doesn't respect him. Or she's not attracted to him. Or she's just one of the fully asexual types. I don't think this is even a responsive desire issue. At this point she's concluded that it's not her job to meet his needs and that she doesn't care that they aren't met and he's miserable because of this. She's not the slightest bit worried about any repercussions and is seemingly happy with status quo. She figures he'll complain again and she'll give him a quickie to shut him up and they'll rug sweep it till next time. Rinse and repeat.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> His posts show he's completely a beta type. He's tolerated a bad sex life for his entire marriage, talked about it and settled for whatever scraps she'd throw him, and now would tolerate anything as long as it was more frequent. There might be more to the equation, but this is definitely part of his problem.


Hi Bananapeel. I would't say i have "tolerated" bad sex for entire marriage. The problem has always been it will be good for a while and then it slips back into the old routine. I have got some of the self help books "The marriage Primer" etc. I have tried the nice guy thing (housework), holding out on her needs (as others suggested), flowers, romance, a pretty tame toy (that she couldn't care to even try more than twice, and many other things. It's not like I have sat back and said "I'm ok with this". There was one point where my wife completely started to withdrawal from me giving her Oral. I did stand up and put my foot down and eventually now it's back in my marriage on an acceptable level. 

I personally didn't feel that it was worth breaking up my company and losing my family for a little more sex. I don't feel that way anymore.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi. I think you missed my point and the context. I made reference to 10 min morning sex and a quickie because my wife complains she has no time. I absolutely hate quickies (maybe in certain circumstances) but if that’s all she has time for and is willing to do to top up the quantity than it is better than nothing no? Not sure if it was that post or another but I have made several references to wanting longer sex and more foreplay. I crave for closeness, cuddling, etc with my wife but it’s rare. In fact, I would say that I am more emotional in many ways than my wife when it comes to sex. She is the one that thinks 20 mins is a marathon and wants to get it over with right away, roll over and go to bed. I’m not offended by your insinuation but I just want to make that clear.


So she finds sex extremely unpleasant, and wants it over and done with quickly. You need to learn WHY it is unpleasant for her and fix that.

Then you need to overcome 20 years of making her feel like a sperm receptacle. You've told us that we're wrong to say that, but she's the one you have to convince because she's missed the point too.

It sounds like she's come to feel like having sex with you is a tiresome and unpleasant chore. Like a clogged toilet, you hope it happens rarely, if ever, but when it does, you have to deal with it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi Bananapeel. I would't say i have "tolerated" bad sex for entire marriage. The problem has always been it will be good for a while and then it slips back into the old routine. I have got some of the self help books "The marriage Primer" etc. I have tried the nice guy thing (housework), holding out on her needs (as others suggested), flowers, romance, a pretty tame toy (that she couldn't care to even try more than twice, and many other things. It's not like I have sat back and said "I'm ok with this". There was one point where my wife completely started to withdrawal from me giving her Oral. I did stand up and put my foot down and eventually now it's back in my marriage on an acceptable level.
> 
> I personally didn't feel that it was worth breaking up my company and losing my family for a little more sex. I don't feel that way anymore.


when it goes back to the old routine, what do you typically do?


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> But he's not assertive sexually so we can figure that part of the problem and there may also be more.


I am not a pushover and I have been sexually assertive in the past. I am a pretty confident person but not arrogant or cocky (attributes that I don't personally care for). Honestly, I probably struggled with confidence earlier on in my marriage and oddly enough this is when the sex was the best. That could have just been a newlywed thing or perhaps my wife changed.

But I started my own business all on my own, it grew and I did well. This was the start of my transformation into a new man. I started to dress better, look better and feel better and I noticed the difference right away. I walk into a room and I am not easily intimidated. I have never been over weight. I am 6'0 tall and the most I have weighed is 220 lbs. Over the past 10 years I started jogging more, working out, playing squash,hockey, golf, walking tall and now I am in the best shape since i have been since i was 20. My friends like/respect me. My kids love /admire me. I rarely ever back down from anybody. My work gave me this new outlook on life. And I did pick a lot of it up from "the marriage primer" as well.

I have tried to be sexually assertive and still am in some ways. Some of you seem to think that i'm a limp noodled pansy when it comes to the bedroom and it's really not the case. 

One thing that i have never mentioned is that my wife grew up without a dad. I know that's a big deal and perhaps I should have mentioned it but I have never thought that has anything to do with this problem although it has caused other minor problems in our marriage in the past.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> so, what do you do for your wife that she would feel hurt to lose?


Sorry in what way do you mean exactly? Sexually? Domestically? Spiritually? Financially?


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Lila said:


> Thanks for clarifying. The way the other post sounded as if you'd be happy if she rolled over in the morning, slathered on the lube, and said "go for it" while she caught up with facebook on her phone. Regardless, a genuine sexual connection with your wife may not be possible. You two may be incompatible in that department.
> 
> You mention sex 1 x per week now. Does she enjoy it? Does she orgasm?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


She says she enjoys it and she seems to enjoy it to me. She doesn't often orgasm from regular sex it usually take some clitoral stimulation by oral or finger but that seems fairly normal from what I have read. She says "it's different for girls and sometimes we just feel good we don't need to orgasm all the time". 

She has a very good looking friend. The type that dulls herself up to go out for groceries. She loves it when her husband dotes on her and treats her like a princess. She couldn't care less about sex and says she would be happy with it once month or even two or three. In fact, although she loves the thought of her husband being the big caveman/tarzan type shes like "I don't want your sweaty body on top of me, etc". She basically couldn't care less about sex. That's not my wife at all but she has said often that "i don't need to have sex every week but I will do it for you". I guess she just has a low sex drive.

But that still doesn't mean that you shouldn't give the person you love what you are able to.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> So she finds sex extremely unpleasant, and wants it over and done with quickly. You need to learn WHY it is unpleasant for her and fix that.
> 
> Then you need to overcome 20 years of making her feel like a sperm receptacle. You've told us that we're wrong to say that, but she's the one you have to convince because she's missed the point too.
> 
> It sounds like she's come to feel like having sex with you is a tiresome and unpleasant chore. Like a clogged toilet, you hope it happens rarely, if ever, but when it does, you have to deal with it.


That's the weird thing...she does enjoy it. I wouldn't say she wants it done/over ASAP, but I think that she is good with X so that is all that is required. This is personal but about 2 weeks ago she turns to me and said "I have an idea, you can go down on me but i am not in the mood to do the same for you tonight". Ok fair, enough i do get some BJ's so it's not worth making a huge deal out of it especially when i really enjoy giving her Oral. She orgasmed four times and trust me, i know. In the morning she was thankful and still talking about it. If i asked her to do it the next day she would be like "we just did it yesterday". 

You can't tell me that it was unpleasant or a chore in any way. She loved it. Perhaps her needs were met well and she feels she doesn't need it for another week or so but unfortunately that's not the case for me. Sometimes I feel like having sex three times a day, sometimes i want it the next day, other times i'm good with 3- days as my sex drive seems to go up and down a little bit.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> Sorry in what way do you mean exactly? Sexually? Domestically? Spiritually? Financially?


how do you respond to her when she goes back to the status quo? do you just keep on doing what you always do? do you go back to withholding her needs? do you blow up about it? what do you do?


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> when it goes back to the old routine, what do you typically do?


Good question. Different things i would have to say. Often times she would say "if you want to have sex just say it". So i have tried that route, the direct route and it's about the same. I might bring it to her attention and say 'hey, it's been slipping a bit lately how about...". If she makes excuses i sometimes would try to take a direct approach and set something up for the next day or later in the week. Something like "hey the kids are going out on Friday how about....." Or "hey, it's been a tough few days but Friday is a slow day so....". Sometimes that's me saying that, sometimes its her. Friday comes and she falls asleep on the couch at 9:30 or maybe makes up another excuse.

One of the problems with the schedule sex is often the day comes and often sometimes things legitimately come up to derail it. Then maybe due to scheduling the next 2-3 days are booked, I'm out late, or she is, or something comes up and before you know it, it hasn't been 3 days since we have had sex but 6 or 7. Hence the twice a week plan quickly turns to once a week. But one thing that does bother me is is you have plans to do something and one person cancels out it's not like the next day she is like "sorry i fell asleep last night, I'll make it up to you tonight". I don't know if it's intentional games, or a calculated plan, or she's not in need of it so she doesn't care.

i don't know.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> Good question. Different things i would have to say. Often times she would say "if you want to have sex just say it". So i have tried that route, the direct route and it's about the same. I might bring it to her attention and say 'hey, it's been slipping a bit lately how about...". If she makes excuses i sometimes would try to take a direct approach and set something up for the next day or later in the week. Something like "hey the kids are going out on Friday how about....." Or "hey, it's been a tough few days but Friday is a slow day so....". Sometimes that's me saying that, sometimes its her. Friday comes and she falls asleep on the couch at 9:30 or maybe makes up another excuse.
> 
> One of the problems with the schedule sex is often the day comes and often sometimes things legitimately come up to derail it. Then maybe due to scheduling the next 2-3 days are booked, I'm out late, or she is, or something comes up and before you know it, it hasn't been 3 days since we have had sex but 6 or 7. Hence the twice a week plan quickly turns to once a week. But one thing that does bother me is is you have plans to do something and one person cancels out it's not like the next day she is like "sorry i fell asleep last night, I'll make it up to you tonight". I don't know if it's intentional games, or a calculated plan, or she's not in need of it so she doesn't care.
> 
> i don't know.



ok, so, back to the question i asked earlier... is there anything that you do for your wife that she would feel hurt to lose?


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> how do you respond to her when she goes back to the status quo? do you just keep on doing what you always do? do you go back to withholding her needs? do you blow up about it? what do you do?


Honestly, I think i have tried everything over the years. I've turned around and been nicer at times. Maybe i will run out and grab flowers. Maybe I will do some other random acts of kindness. Other times l try not to overreact and give her the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes I tell her I'm upset. Sometimes but rarely I blow up (currently in blow up mode). Obviously silent treatment has been done. Sometimes I let her know that I couldn't wait for her any longer so I took care of myself. Honestly, I've tried a lot of different things. I havnt found one thing that works or we wouldn't have this thread :smile2:


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> Good question. Different things i would have to say. Often times she would say "if you want to have sex just say it". So i have tried that route, the direct route and it's about the same. I might bring it to her attention and say 'hey, it's been slipping a bit lately how about...". If she makes excuses i sometimes would try to take a direct approach and set something up for the next day or later in the week. Something like "hey the kids are going out on Friday how about....." Or "hey, it's been a tough few days but Friday is a slow day so....". Sometimes that's me saying that, sometimes its her. Friday comes and she falls asleep on the couch at 9:30 or maybe makes up another excuse.
> 
> One of the problems with the schedule sex is often the day comes and often sometimes things legitimately come up to derail it. Then maybe due to scheduling the next 2-3 days are booked, I'm out late, or she is, or something comes up and before you know it, it hasn't been 3 days since we have had sex but 6 or 7. Hence the twice a week plan quickly turns to once a week. But one thing that does bother me is is you have plans to do something and one person cancels out it's not like the next day she is like "sorry i fell asleep last night, I'll make it up to you tonight". I don't know if it's intentional games, or a calculated plan, or she's not in need of it so she doesn't care.
> 
> i don't know.





Oasis649 said:


> Honestly, I think i have tried everything over the years. I've turned around and been nicer at times. Maybe i will run out and grab flowers. Maybe I will do some other random acts of kindness. Other times l try not to overreact and give her the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes I tell her I'm upset. Sometimes but rarely I blow up (currently in blow up mode). Obviously silent treatment has been done. Sometimes I let her know that I couldn't wait for her any longer so I took care of myself. Honestly, I've tried a lot of different things. I havnt found one thing that works or we wouldn't have this thread :smile2:


do you have an answer for the question below?



As'laDain said:


> ok, so, back to the question i asked earlier... is there anything that you do for your wife that she would feel hurt to lose?


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> do you have an answer for the question below?


1 thing would be to sluff off church and not go. That would really bother her. I’ve done it in the past......didn’t work great, just made it worse to be honest.

The only other thing she wouldn’t want to lose is the domestic help I routinely do.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Oasis649 said:


> Good question. Different things i would have to say. Often times she would say "if you want to have sex just say it". So i have tried that route, the direct route and it's about the same. I might bring it to her attention and say 'hey, it's been slipping a bit lately how about...". If she makes excuses i sometimes would try to take a direct approach and set something up for the next day or later in the week. Something like "hey the kids are going out on Friday how about....." Or "hey, it's been a tough few days but Friday is a slow day so....". Sometimes that's me saying that, sometimes its her. Friday comes and she falls asleep on the couch at 9:30 or maybe makes up another excuse.
> 
> One of the problems with the schedule sex is often the day comes and often sometimes things legitimately come up to derail it. Then maybe due to scheduling the next 2-3 days are booked, I'm out late, or she is, or something comes up and before you know it, it hasn't been 3 days since we have had sex but 6 or 7. Hence the twice a week plan quickly turns to once a week. But one thing that does bother me is is you have plans to do something and one person cancels out it's not like the next day she is like "sorry i fell asleep last night, I'll make it up to you tonight". I don't know if it's intentional games, or a calculated plan, or she's not in need of it so she doesn't care.
> 
> i don't know.


The above demonstrates forms of negotiating with your wife, and as another poster commented earlier, you can't negotiate desire.

You're looking to your wife to give you advice on what to do. She's not being honest with herself or you IMO. The truth comes from people's *actions*.
You should be pouring over those books (written by men/relationship counselors) and talking to other men who have successful relationships.

If she wanted to have sex with you, she'd be laying you like tile.
You should always introspect at how well you are meeting her needs, because respect is based upon the mutual meeting of needs and conscious efforts put in to maintain both of your needs in the relationship.

If you've exhausted the introspection and you really are at a loss as to what you could be doing "wrong," if you've gone to MC or IC and the therapist is at a loss as well, then usually the fault lies with the other individual, and it is not controllable at your end.
She just might not be attracted to you. Full stop.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Oasis649 said:


> We are both quite familiar with those scriptures but it is a little subjective and not clear black and white. One persons view of “rendering your due” will differ from another’s. Regardless, entering into a monogamous relationship with a person and limiting them to a single sexual partner and then denying them sex is not right


1 Corinthians 7 (ESV)

_1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control._

Reads pretty clear for me, especially verses 3 and 4. If she is not interpreting these scriptures the correct way she is making excuses. Therefore, she has not fulfilled her marital duty, and has invited Satan's temptations. You two need to seek counseling. Sometimes the pastor of your church is a good place to start.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Honestly, OP, it appears you have exhausted all of your options. The ball is in her court as to whether she is willing to make a permanent change to save the marriage. She most certainly has to figure out why she doesn't want sex, and can't bring herself to meet your basic needs. There is no valid reason that she can't meet you somewhere in the middle as for frequency. I feel like she doesn't have a clue what she is about to lose if she doesn't change. Sometimes a drastic negative change will snap another person back to reality, and make them understand that there is a REAL problem. Sometimes not.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi Bananapeel. I would't say i have "tolerated" bad sex for entire marriage. The problem has always been it will be good for a while and then it slips back into the old routine. I have got some of the self help books "The marriage Primer" etc. I have tried the nice guy thing (housework), holding out on her needs (as others suggested), flowers, romance, a pretty tame toy (that she couldn't care to even try more than twice, and many other things. It's not like I have sat back and said "I'm ok with this". There was one point where my wife completely started to withdrawal from me giving her Oral. I did stand up and put my foot down and eventually now it's back in my marriage on an acceptable level.
> 
> I personally didn't feel that it was worth breaking up my company and losing my family for a little more sex. I don't feel that way anymore.


I probably shouldn't share this on an online forum and I'm sure I'll be heavily criticized but my "alpha" approach to sex is opposite of yours, very direct, and yields really good results. Not that long ago I was dating a woman who told me she couldn't always orgasm and it's been a problem with past guys she's dated because they took it personally as a failure in their masculinity. So I told her that I didn't care whether she orgasmed or not because it was my job to make sure my needs were being met and it was her job to make sure her needs were being met, and she could do or not do anything she felt at the time. And I did make sure my needs were being met. I'd talk dirty to her, spank her, pull her hair, tie her up, have oral or anal sex, sex in public places, toys, etc., basically do anything I wanted with her and we both had a great time. That honesty left her feeling free to do whatever she wanted in bed too, communicate freely about her desires, relax mentally so she could orgasm, and she didn't feel the pressure to worry about our sex life because I took care of alleviating that responsibility from her. She enthusiastically did things for me that were off limits to previous guys, simply because of how assertive I was and how I approached sex. However, there was more to the equation. I made sure in our relationship I maintained a dating vibe and not a relationship vibe. Basically, I took her on dates that were varied, fun, and exciting and I didn't do housework or other boring chores as part of our courtship to get her to sleep with me (if I saw things needed to be done I'd just take care of them and not tell her about it). Essentially, I acted like her lover and not her partner, which is how she treated me. The "nice guy syndrome" that a lot of people posting in this forum have is actually not an honest approach and causes people to be in your situation unless their wives naturally have a very HD. Most marriages end up with guys acting like "nice guys" because, like you, they are afraid of losing their family, lifestyle, career, etc. So the question is how is it possible to get what you want in a marriage when the self sacrifice associated with marriage fundamentally changes your relationship to one counter to where you want to be? You are taking the first step by communicating honestly about what you want and what you'll tolerate to stay in the marriage. Be willing to leave the marriage is a strong negotiating point, but only if you really mean it. The next step is you need to figure out how to become lovers again and wipe out the monotony of your relationship. You don't do that through negotiating with your wife, but by being assertive in how you live your life, what you'll accept sexually, and how you lead the relationship. Unfortunately, a lot of guys don't have this attitude in them and don't know how to make it happen. The change in relationship dynamic affecting your sex life is covered exceptionally well in the book "mating in captivity", so maybe you should also add that to your reading list.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> 1 thing would be to sluff off church and not go. That would really bother her. I’ve done it in the past......didn’t work great, just made it worse to be honest.
> 
> The only other thing she wouldn’t want to lose is the domestic help I routinely do.


unfortunately, you dont have much to bargain with. the church thing would bother her, but she would probably feel more hurt that you are not upholding her image, so it would not be something she would be afraid of losing from you. domestic help, however, is a playing card. 

so, stop doing all of it. dont help in any way that you dont absolutely have to. tell her that you will spend as much energy making her life easier as she does at enjoying a positive sex life with you. 

the purpose of this is really to get her talking. after all these years, if you dont know how to turn her on, then you have REALLY shot yourself in the foot. so, the first thing you need to do is to get her to open up to you sexually. you need to find out what her turn ons are. if she opens up to you in ways that she has not done before, then consider that progress and go back to doing the domestic help. 

if you can find out how to turn your wife on, then you wont have to keep chasing sex. she will chase you for it. or at the least, she will welcome it.

so, do you know how to push your wifes sexual buttons? im assuming not, since you are here...


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## purplesunsets (Feb 26, 2018)

poida said:


> It really is the biggest issue for men. A strong drive to pro-create within a society and relationship structure that doesn't allow that.
> *Accept that most women are the same.*
> Once you accept that, you can think about ways to manage your drive.
> 1. How much exercise do you get?
> ...


If you accept this to be true, that's all you will find. Don't limit yourself and don't encourage others to accept such limiting beliefs. Most of my female friends have incredibly high sex drives and really enjoy having sex 2-4x per week. It's better to accept beliefs that you actually want to see come true (law of attraction) such as: Many women enjoy sex and have active sex lives. Sex is important to me and so I will find someone who is sexually compatible.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

purplesunsets said:


> If you accept this to be true, that's all you will find. Don't limit yourself and don't encourage others to accept such limiting beliefs. Most of my female friends have incredibly high sex drives and really enjoy having sex 2-4x per week. It's better to accept beliefs that you actually want to see come true (law of attraction) such as: Many women enjoy sex and have active sex lives. Sex is important to me and so I will find someone who is sexually compatible.




Amen!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi, I appreciate the your view. I wouldn’t say I tolerated it. I have fought it for many many years in many different ways. There has been 3-4 things that have prevented me from actually leaving. My kids, my loyalty, my faith, and my business (complicated). And I guess that I just didn’t believe that perhaps a little more sex or an extra BJ here or there was worth destroying a family for.
> 
> However I have experienced a lot of changes in my life lately. Getting older, having the aches and pains and losing that feeling of immortality that we have when we were young have all changed my view. I have finally decided that it isn’t good enough anymore.


I can totally relate to this. I am in much the same general situation in life. 

I haven't caught how old your kids are but mine are in their teens so and we have a good relationship so it's not like I'm going to abandon them and they are old enough to just get in the car and come see me or go see their mom however they want if she and I were to split. 

If there was any child support, it would be minimal and only for a few years.

So "for the children" isn't really a factor once your kids are teens.

Whatever business complications are is why we have corporate lawyers and courts etc. 

If she is a business partner in some bona fide manner, then she is entitled to her fair share. Love it or leave it. 

The rest is just personal preference and which options will cause you the least personal angst and turmoil. 

If the pain and despair of staying outweighs the grief and fear of leaving, then you have your answer.

If your grief and fear of leaving outweighs your pain of staying, then squeeze your lemons and make lemonade. 

I haven't read every post but from what I have read it does not sound like there are any flagrant fouls on either you or your wife. I think it's going to simply come down to are You willing to live with the status quo or are you at a point to cut losses, divvy up the marital assets fairly and go your own way. 

If you are fit, healthy, clean and groomed, reasonably well dressed and not otherwise disfigured or deformed and you have a successful, self-sustaining career and are a decent person with reasonable social skills - you will have a variety of options with women. Including younger, prettier and more sexually responsive women. 

Your option is simply do you stay and live with weekly sex that results in orgasms but doesn't rock your world?

Or do you look for something else that may knock your socks for a period of time before that becomes routine and relatively lackluster in time as well?

Only you can make that decision.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

purplesunsets said:


> If you accept this to be true, that's all you will find. Don't limit yourself and don't encourage others to accept such limiting beliefs. Most of my female friends have incredibly high sex drives and really enjoy having sex 2-4x per week. It's better to accept beliefs that you actually want to see come true (law of attraction) such as: Many women enjoy sex and have active sex lives. Sex is important to me and so I will find someone who is sexually compatible.


this. 

plus, people can change. we see it all the time. someone doesn't want sex with their spouse, but someone new comes along and BOOM! sex drive sky rockets. 

my wife, @Akinaura, used to be pretty frigid, only wanting sex and intimacy on rare occasions. but, i wanted to enjoy a passionate sex life with her, and i wanted HER to enjoy it. so, i put a LOT of effort into finding out how to turn her on, what she likes. we both learned a lot of things along the way that we didn't know about ourselves. nowadays, she LOVES sex. i didn't just want to see her get off. i wanted her to experience the excitement, the anticipation, everything. it changed the way she viewed sex, mainly because i introduced something to her that she had never experienced. to be honest, it was something i had never experienced either, but had always wanted.

she no longer calls it "scratching the itch".


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Oasis - what is your gut instinct telling you about why your wife doesn't want sex with you? Do you really believe it's as simple as she's a cold asexual fish? The rare one that does get multiple orgasms when you do have sex but always seems to want to get it over with quickly anyhow?

Based on your posts you seem pretty sure that you 1) are fully capable of satisfying her sexual needs 2) are in good/great physical shape 3) are a good husband/father/leader to the family 5) are not in any way a Beta persona 4) are a successful business owner & provider 5) understand and meet her emotional needs. On the other hand (responding to As'laDain) you have no idea what you you bring to the table that your wife absolutely needs from you. Doesn't compute for me - you're the picture of the perfect catch husband and yet your wife openly disrespects you and doesn't care one bit about your needs. 

Honestly this could all be true and it's just your cold heartless wife, in which case absolutely move on. But there must be something there and I'd advise you to really take a deep introspective look. While acknowledging that LD and Responsive desire are real things, I personally think that's the very last thing to attribute only after you've crossed everything else out. Even LD women (unless completely asexual) will give a little to their husbands if they are really in love with their husband. I can't believe your wife is RD type if she's a get it over quickly person (but one who can have multiple orgasms).

Are you sure your wife really loves you? Are you sure you are meeting her needs and she's not secretly bitter? Are you sure you're attractive to her? Are you sure you're really all of the above that you say you are?


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

purplesunsets said:


> If you accept this to be true, that's all you will find. Don't limit yourself and don't encourage others to accept such limiting beliefs. Most of my female friends have incredibly high sex drives and really enjoy having sex 2-4x per week. It's better to accept beliefs that you actually want to see come true (law of attraction) such as: Many women enjoy sex and have active sex lives. Sex is important to me and so I will find someone who is sexually compatible.


This is most certainly true. However, I do think the difference is that women are predominately "responsive desire", while men are predominantly "spontaneous desire". It think therein lies the difference, and maybe that is what he is alluding to.

My wife (52) and I (56) have always had an active sex life. I can't remember a time, other than after child birth or a couple of my surgeries, where we have had sex less than 4 times a week. We've been married for over 21 years now. I made it extremely clear while we were dating that I have a very high sex drive and expect "no" to not be a valid answer unless there is an illness or injury. It hasn't always been "great" sex, especially during the change, but even then it was good. To be honest, sex keeps getting better and better now that there is no chance of pregnancy. We average about 5 times a week now. Sexual compatibility is most certainly important in a marriage, and I think it keeps each spouse connected emotionally. Intimacy adds strength to the marriage bond. I can't imagine a life without sex, and unless there is a condition that prevents it, I will continue to expect it.

There are couples on both ends of the spectrum as far as intimacy is concerned. It's all about what they are willing to accept. If two people truly love each other, I don't think there is any valid reason why they shouldn't actually WANT to please the other. That covers all the love languages, too, not just sex.

There are women, as well as men, who just don't GET IT..., that needs are needs and require effort on their part.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

yeah, thats what i am wondering too, @BigDigg. if he has nothing to offer her that she doesnt need from him, then... well, WTF? companionship, intellectually stimulating conversation, adventure, fun, friendship, etc. the only thing he mentioned was domestic support. and church attendance, which is an image thing... not really about him.

she could hire help to take care of the domestic support. its not a good sign when everything you bring to the table can be outsourced for 50 bucks a week...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> yeah, thats what i am wondering too, @BigDigg. if he has nothing to offer her that she doesnt need from him, then... well, WTF? companionship, intellectually stimulating conversation, adventure, fun, friendship, etc. the only thing he mentioned was domestic support. and church attendance, which is an image thing... not really about him.
> 
> she could hire help to take care of the domestic support. its not a good sign when everything you bring to the table can be outsourced for 50 bucks a week...


Yeah but realistically, other than supporting someone financially if that is the lifestyle they choose, what else besides coparenting, companionship, travel etc does any of us provide that can't be outsourced for $50 or be provided by someone else???

In the modern, western world, marriage is a choice and we choose to be with someone because we want to. 

There isn't really anything that someone provides that can't be obtained elsewhere or simply gone without. 

If all a guy needs is a warm Jay-Jay to deposit his sperm, he can hire sex workers or pick up drunk chicks in bars or get a sugar baby or something.

If a guy wants to actually be wanted and desired and lusted for, then simply cutting off her needs or support if she doesn't put out isn't going to cut it. 

Let's face it, unless she is completely unemployed and needs a gravy train - she doesn't need him for anything and will live just fine if he leaves.

He doesn't really need her for anything and will survive if she leaves.

Cutting each other off from the things they want and enjoy in the relationship is not the answer to increasing her sexual desire for him.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah but realistically, other than supporting someone financially if that is the lifestyle they choose, what else besides coparenting, companionship, travel etc does any of us provide that can't be outsourced for $50 or be provided by someone else???
> 
> In the modern, western world, marriage is a choice and we choose to be with someone because we want to.
> 
> ...



why is it that so very few people seem to understand the purpose of upsetting the status quo?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> why is it that so very few people seem to understand the purpose of upsetting the status quo?


Upsetting the status quo might bring someone to the negotiating table and may make them take it serious enough to address the issues honestly and to take the situation seriously. 

I do understand that.

But it does not generate desire or make people horny. 

As an example, let's say the OP has real bad breath that turns off Mrs Oasis but she is reluctant to tell him and she is content to let their sex life wither and die rather than risk hurting his feelings in saying his breath kills her attraction and desire.

When he tries to address the dead bedroom, she gets defensive and accuses him of only wanting sex and round and round they go and nothing gets effectively addressed or corrected.

If gets to a point he had enough and he withdraws his housework and church and emotional support and starts packing his bags......

That may wake her up and get her to take his complaint seriously and it may get her to the MC's office and admit that his breath is killing her.

Over time assuming he improves his oral hygiene and assuming they continue to try to address their issues and work towards having a good relationship, her desire for him may return to a degree.

- but him withdrawing her wants and needs from the relationship did not increase her desire for him or make her horny.

In fact, in the near term it likely made things worse and made her more resentful. 

The role of rocking the boat is to give a wake up call that you are serious and to hopefully bring someone to the negotiating table.

It does not in itself address or correct the underlying problem.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> If a guy wants to actually be wanted and desired and lusted for, then simply cutting off her needs or support if she doesn't put out isn't going to cut it.
> 
> Let's face it, unless she is completely unemployed and needs a gravy train - she doesn't need him for anything and will live just fine if he leaves.


If he's as high-value as he thinks he is then cutting off his time/attention should spur a reaction (anxiety or other) that causes her to react (positively eventually). Then it's conditioning of sorts. The problem here is that she doesn't evidently view him at that level so anything short of overt threats (like leaving) isn't going to change any dynamic.

I'm not 100% a fan of this method but to say it can't be effective isn't true. It can be for the right guy if he's perceived as high value. If he's not perceived that way (i sense he isn't) then this will just annoy her and probably fail. In that case the root problem is pretty clear - she doesn't love/respect him enough to care about loosing him or being actually worried that he might go through with it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDigg said:


> If he's as high-value as he thinks he is then cutting off his time/attention should spur a reaction (anxiety or other) that causes her to react (positively eventually). Then it's conditioning of sorts. The problem here is that she doesn't evidently view him at that level so anything short of overt threats (like leaving) isn't going to change any dynamic.
> 
> I'm not 100% a fan of this method but to say it can't be effective isn't true. It can be for the right guy if he's perceived as high value. If he's not perceived that way (i sense he isn't) then this will just annoy her and probably fail. In that case the root problem is pretty clear - she doesn't love/respect him enough to care about loosing him or being actually worried that he might go through with it.



See my response in post #118.

You could be Ruler of World in terms of value and all withdrawing love and support/leaving may do is a wake up call to either bring someone to the negotiating table or jar them out of a state of complacency. 

Leaving does not turn people on. 

It may buy someone a couple weeks of duress sex and placating, but it does not create actual desire or attraction.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Your post reinforced my thinking that it is better to find out sooner rather that wait to find out. I do not know how many times I have been pilloried for stating this. The reality is you do not know until you know. I do not care if one or the other says they enjoy/like/love sex before. The fact is that sex encompasses many different things. You never know until you find out which is one of the reasons why I can't believe that anyone waits for whatever reason until they are married to have sex. Sex is central to the marriage and in fact the reason why we date and marry other people. To wait until you have made a legal commitment to find out is a fools game.



People have pilloried you for saying this?


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Cromer said:


> That's not been my experience since the divorce. My sex life has been drastically better than it has been in the past 15+ years.


Are you married or just dating for the last 15 years?


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

"Leaving does not turn people on. 

It may buy someone a couple weeks of duress sex and placating, but it does not create actual desire or attraction."

Absolutely true.

In which case, leave because the best you are ever going to get is duress sex.

**** all that!


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Jus260 said:


> Are you married or just dating for the last 15 years?


Long story. Divorce final last Oct. Been with GF since Dec. Waited too long to get out, but I'm out and things are great.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Upsetting the status quo might bring someone to the negotiating table and may make them take it serious enough to address the issues honestly and to take the situation seriously.
> 
> I do understand that.
> 
> ...


why is it that you and so many other people seem to feel the need to point out what i have already been saying? it would be like me saying that people need to get money to buy food with, and then having people tell me "well, you cant eat money..." 

yes, you are correct. it does not generate desire. nobody said that. 

and yes, it DOES often result in further communication. people have a tendency to spill the beans when they feel cornered of off balance.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Jus260 said:


> People have pilloried you for saying this?


Yep, some people have this strong belief that one must wait until they are married because they say that God has said that sex should only take place between a husband and wife within the confines of a marriage. I am still waiting for any evidence of that. They like to use hear say to support their argument, but I have yet to hear it myself. In the meantime all of us sinners are going to rot in hell for having fun.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> why is it that you and so many other people seem to feel the need to point out what i have already been saying? it would be like me saying that people need to get money to buy food with, and then having people tell me "well, you cant eat money..."
> 
> yes, you are correct. it does not generate desire. nobody said that.
> 
> and yes, it DOES often result in further communication. people have a tendency to spill the beans when they feel cornered of off balance.


Probably because for whatever reason you choose NOT to actually say what you claim to be saying. Earlier you just kept saying "change" as if the OP hadn't already addressed the various changes made over the preceeding 20 years. Now you have ventured slightly more forward but still won't say exactly what those changes should be and why.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

So you have sex once per week, and occasionally twice. So you probably have sex between 52-80 times per year.

The last 3 years of my previous marriage were completely sexless - ZERO. Before that is was quarterly if I was lucky.

I am an at least once a day 1%-er.

I understand you are frustrated. You are NOT in a sexless marriage.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> "Leaving does not turn people on.
> 
> It may buy someone a couple weeks of duress sex and placating, but it does not create actual desire or attraction."
> 
> ...


I normally agree with your posts, but I'm not so sure about this one. Absence really does make the heart grow fonder, for one. Sometimes people take their spouse for granted and really get their attraction rekindled when they face the reality of possibly losing their spouse. 

Also, relationships are very complex, and a threat to leave often puts the leaving spouse into a sort of leadership position. This creates respect and attraction in the other spouse, making them see their partner in a whole new light. 

So I don't think it's duress, per se, but I agree that it's difficult to sustain whatever attraction there might be. It's more natural to slip back into taking one's spouse for granted.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Somewhere around 15 years ago, we hit this bump. She basically said that she was too tired from the kids, from the job from everything. I told her that I was tired, but sex is a necessary component to the marriage. We were averaging once every other week. I point blank told her that it was not acceptable. She asked what I expected her to do about it? I said "Shlt or get off the pot". "Which means?" "Since I do not want to go outside the marriage for sex, then I guess we should talk about ending it." That was my line in the sand. We had split once, and she could not go through that again. I left that night, and ghosted her. Apparently, she talked to every woman she knew. Her mother told her to stop being an idiot. Wifely duty and all. She told me that her mother said, "Just let him plug in". I told her that wasn't sex, that was jerking off with a set of tits. Her SIL said that she uses sex to help her relax, and they do it at the drop of a hat. One cousin told her the absolute truth. If you keep ignoring this, he will eventually find someone who will, and who is willing. That is the whole thing, he wants marriage with you and you keep throwing roadblocks at him, telling him it is only on your terms. He will tire of that and look for someone who does not give him terms and easy payments whenever he gets a hard-on. She told my wife that no should not be in your lexicon, if you can't right then, then schedule for ASAP, and don't back out. That was one other thing that she realized she was doing. She'd promise and then conveniently forget. If you brought it to her attention, she would immediately say, "What? You're holding that over my head?" Her cousin said that statement was an iron clad guarantee to end a marriage. My wife realized that the attitude had to change. It worked, and then menopause set in, and suddenly, she was demanding sex every other day. Guess who did NOT deny.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I normally agree with your posts, but I'm not so sure about this one. Absence really does make the heart grow fonder, for one. Sometimes people take their spouse for granted and really get their attraction rekindled when they face the reality of possibly losing their spouse.
> 
> Also, relationships are very complex, and a threat to leave often puts the leaving spouse into a sort of leadership position. This creates respect and attraction in the other spouse, making them see their partner in a whole new light.
> 
> So I don't think it's duress, per se, but I agree that it's difficult to sustain whatever attraction there might be. It's more natural to slip back into taking one's spouse for granted.


Threats to leave does not put anyone in a position of strength or leadership.

Actually leaving does.

But it doesn't put you in a leadership position of the relationship; it puts you in a leadership position if yourself. 

Yes that may give someone who does love you and does want to remain with you a wake up call and that in turn may even instill a sense of respect to a degree. 

But that is only one battle of a war. The ultimate goal of war is not only to not lose the war but to win the peace. 

Having someone capitulate and agree to try harder is only one piece of the puzzle. The actual heavy lifting comes the next day after the make up. Going forward and winning the peace is about coming to the table and addressing the core issues (for which there may be no true solution) 

Threatening to leave/leaving may work once; maybe twice.

But after that either the bluff gets called or they grow weary of living with that level of insecurity and just say, " fine. Go ahead and go."

If the underlying, core issues aren't addressed and corrected, it is just a temporary victory to one battle of a bigger war.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

@Taxman - just curious - how was the sex after her attitude changed but before menopause? Satisfying or starfish? Based on your post sounds like things are good now.

I can sort of see the value in following through on the threat to leave in a case like this to some extent (upset the applecart style with a complacent wife). If she's unwilling to lose the marriage she might submit to this and give some lame paint-by-numbers is-it-already-sex-day-again style lame sex. That would certainly be coupled with some resentment that will eventually manifest elsewhere. If he's a Beta type I could in theory see her drawing some (temporary?) attraction for this too by showing her his spine. 

It's last resort type stuff though. The kind of sex Oasis wants takes true desire and that's not easily gained through threats or negotiation. To get desire you have to either clear the roadblocks in your relationship or significantly improve her perception of you (or both). That's hard work, takes change and also takes time.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Oasis649 said:


> The only other thing she wouldn’t want to lose is the domestic help I routinely do.


Then stop doing them. Don't be snide or rude, just give her the exact same excuses that she gives you for sex. If she said "I'm a bit tired tonight" the last time, then tell her "I'm a bit tired".


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

What my take on this though is not that she is doing anything wrong per se and it's not that he is a whipped beta boy or lazy slug etc.

I haven't read every single post of the OP's but from the ones I have read I get the impression that both are good peeps and both are acting in reasonably good faith.

........it's just not good enough for him any more. 

I see this as having a good, loyal and hard working hound dog, but being upset that it isn't winning any races at the dog track. 

Let's flip this around and use an analogy from a female point of view.

Let's say a young woman latches on to the smartest guy in her high school because she reasonably believes he will become a doctor. 

He has a 4.0 GPA and every university with a premed program accepts him.

They get married in undergrad but once he is married he changes majors and gets a business degree instead and now he's worked his way up from analyst intern to mid management of medium sized company.

He makes a living wage and modest lifestyle but he ain't no neuro surgeon.

And now 20 years later that wife is entrenched in bitterness and resentment and dissatisfaction because at the time of their courtship he told her he was heading to med school some day and she rightfully believed him.

But he never developed into the brain surgeon she thought he would.

Over the years she would "encourage" him to go back to school and study for MCATs but he had lost that desire for med school and was content to work for a business firm.

So let me ask - will her threatening to leave or actually leaving make him go to med school now at age 40? 

Will she be able to badger and taunt him to becoming a physician?

Will he cling to the hopes of saving his marriage to the degree that changes career paths and pursues medicine?

Will her leaving cause him to love and respect her so much that he is so inspired by her that he sincerely wants to pursue a career in medicine??


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

My point here is she did not develop into the person he wanted and what he thought she would become.

Their love and sex life never developed into what he wanted or what he thought it could and should be. 

They married young and as two virgins who each said they would have a good sex life, but once it was out into practice, it never rose to his expectations. 

They do not have a sexless marriage and it doesn't sound like she has ever indicated she doesn't like sex with him or that she has ever declared that she won't have sex with him or doesn't like it.

- she simply doesn't trip his trigger and she just doesn't have the traits and characteristics and skillsets that he wants in a sex partner.

He wants a sleek and fast race dog that wins Trophys at the dog track.

She is a hound dog that lays at his feet on the porch and flushed pheasants out of the bushes and brings to him when he shoots them out of the sky.

IMHO him leaving or threatening to leaving will not inspire to to transform into a greyhound.

I doubt if him transforming himself into a studlier man will inspire to her run faster as a houndog to where it will win any races at the track.

I think his options are either to settle and live with the houndog and accept a dream unmet.

Or cut his losses, seek a fair and cooperative divorce and look for a greyhound that needs a home and is willing to train at the dog track.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

(Other possible options include asking the houndog if she is ok with him playing with greyhounds and hanging out at the dog track as long as she gets to stay in the house.

Or leaving the houndog alone in peace on the porch and playing with greyhounds behind her back.

But each of those options come with their firestorm of issues).


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> Probably because for whatever reason you choose NOT to actually say what you claim to be saying. Earlier you just kept saying "change" as if the OP hadn't already addressed the various changes made over the preceeding 20 years. Now you have ventured slightly more forward but still won't say exactly what those changes should be and why.


yeah, you latched onto that word and cant seem to let go of it, regardless of the context in which i used it. 

when OP gives more information about his marriage, maybe we can figure out what changes he actually needs to make. so far, its been pretty vague.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I normally agree with your posts, but I'm not so sure about this one. _Absence really does make the heart grow fonder_, for one. Sometimes people take their spouse for granted and really get their attraction rekindled when they face the reality of possibly losing their spouse.
> 
> Also, relationships are very complex, and a threat to leave often puts the leaving spouse into a sort of leadership position. This creates respect and attraction in the other spouse, making them see their partner in a whole new light.
> 
> So I don't think it's duress, per se, but *I agree that it's difficult to sustain whatever attraction there might be. It's more natural to slip back into taking one's spouse for granted.*


Tatsuhiko, 
I normally agree with you on a lot of posts as well. The part I boldest in your reply with a 100%. The other part I highlighted at the first of your post I also agree with. I live it everyday, as I travel for a living. Coming back home does makes things better, most of the time. I wouldn't recommend anyone take the strategies that I have taken in my marriage though. 

A man has to be honest with himself and realize when the cost is to high to continue. 

A sustainable level of lust and passion is not always realistic with some people. Sometimes they really are giving all they have. 

It's then you have to decide if you are going to settle or cut bait.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> yeah, you latched onto that word and cant seem to let go of it, regardless of the context in which i used it.
> 
> when OP gives more information about his marriage, maybe we can figure out what changes he actually needs to make. so far, its been pretty vague.


I don't disagree with that. He has been pretty vague. But, so have you. From what I have seen you have some good advice to give - expound on it! I am not trying to bust your balls. I get where you are coming from now that you have expanded on it some


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ynot said:


> I don't disagree with that. He has been pretty vague. But, so have you. From what I have seen you have some good advice to give - expound on it! I am not trying to bust your balls. I get where you are coming from now that you have expanded on it some


im still waiting to see what the ACTUAL problem is... 

hard to get specific with little to go on. kinda like going to a doctor complaining about a nondescript pain, while telling him all the remedies tried, but not saying what hurts, where, when, how, etc.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> im still waiting to see what the ACTUAL problem is...
> 
> hard to get specific with little to go on. kinda like going to a doctor complaining about a nondescript pain, while telling him all the remedies tried, but not saying what hurts, where, when, how, etc.


I have noticed the OP will not directly answer your question


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> im still waiting to see what the ACTUAL problem is...
> 
> hard to get specific with little to go on. kinda like going to a doctor complaining about a nondescript pain, while telling him all the remedies tried, but not saying what hurts, where, when, how, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
"I am not trying to bust your balls."

Cough (BS! ) Cough


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Cromer said:


> Long story. Divorce final last Oct. Been with GF since Dec. Waited too long to get out, but I'm out and things are great.


I misunderstood what you said before. I did take a look at your thread that you linked. I have to admit I couldn't get to the end of it. I believe these stories are necessary reading but this is the reason I have to step away for weeks at a time. It gives me too much anxiety. I did get to the point where you are now banging on cornfields. Looks like it all works out in the end. I would like to have 15 acres at some point. Right now I have just over 3 partially wooded. Just my luck, I would end up with ticks and who the hell knows what else.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> So you have sex once per week, and occasionally twice. So you probably have sex between 52-80 times per year.
> 
> The last 3 years of my previous marriage were completely sexless - ZERO. Before that is was quarterly if I was lucky.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I don't recall saying anywhere that I was in a "sexless" marriage only that I wanted more sex. If I did, that was an inaccurate statement on my part.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

Ynot said:


> I have noticed the OP will not directly answer your question


I actually never expected to get this much of a response on this thread. On top of that work has been pretty busy and I have been away for a few days. I will have to go back and see which question it is that I did not answer as I am not trying to avoid anybody's questions.......I must have just missed it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> So she finds sex extremely unpleasant, and wants it over and done with quickly. You need to learn WHY it is unpleasant for her and fix that.
> 
> Then you need to overcome 20 years of making her feel like a sperm receptacle. You've told us that we're wrong to say that, but she's the one you have to convince because she's missed the point too.
> 
> It sounds like she's come to feel like having sex with you is a tiresome and unpleasant chore. Like a clogged toilet, you hope it happens rarely, if ever, but when it does, you have to deal with it.


That is up to her to communicate, and her to fix.

Not him.

She can communicate what will help, but there we go with that important yet not so surprisingly absent word...yet again.


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> unfortunately, you dont have much to bargain with. the church thing would bother her, but she would probably feel more hurt that you are not upholding her image, so it would not be something she would be afraid of losing from you. domestic help, however, is a playing card.
> 
> so, stop doing all of it. dont help in any way that you dont absolutely have to. tell her that you will spend as much energy making her life easier as she does at enjoying a positive sex life with you.
> 
> ...


Hi, this must be the post you are referring to:

That's the thing..............I do know how to push her buttons. I think that she just has a very low sex drive and she is satisfied with just once a week. She has said several times that's all she needs and anything more than that is for ME.

But I do have an update on the whole situation. I went out of town for several days this weekend but before doing so we sat down and had a very good lengthy conversation. I don't know if I have the time to go into full details but I can somewhat summarize:

1. I made it very clear that I love my wife and children first and foremost. My preference would be to stay if at all possible but that under the current situation I was not happy and I would not stay.

2. I stated that I made myself very clear prior to marriage what my needs were. I did my due diligence, asked many questions, and made sure that we were on the exact same page. I said that I felt as though I had been deceived. I then told my wife that we entered into a monogamous relationship where we both limited ourselves to a single partner and that included a vow to meet each others needs and that she was not holding up her end of the bargain. Because she is very religious she readily acknowledged her shortfall regarding this. I calmly and clearly stated how important sex was to me and what an important part of a healthy marriage it is and that I was fully 100% prepared to leave if this did not change.

3. We talked about the obstacles that are constantly getting in the way, mainly stress and lack of time. I made several suggestions about how we could tackle some of these issues such as....more time together, date nights, more privacy from the kids (creating more opportunities), going outside of our usual routine, etc, etc. Not only did she agree with much of what I was saying she seemed to be interested in trying them.

4. We talked about our business and the stress that it has put on our marriage and our sex-life. We both agreed that while we expect things to improve in the near future when we shut down our business we both agreed that the situation still needs to change right now.

5. I specifically wanted to find out about what is bothering my wife and what could be the potential issues that are causing her to put sex on the back burner. I thought we made pretty good progress on this one as there were a few things that were going on in the house that was causing her issues. A lot of that related to the kids and other household issues. I have already come up with a few answers and have come up with a plan.

6. We talked in detail about the actual sex itself...frequency, quality, foreplay, boundaries, etc. My wife doesn't talk about sex in such detail very often so it was a pretty productive conversation. Not only did I was I able to pointedly tell her what I want/need I got a lot more feedback from her.

7. I made a commitment to myself that I would do more reading and research on the topic. I have already purchased new material and began reviewing previous material I had.

8. I realized that although we have been married for 20+ years that we have drifted a bit apart in some ways and that my wife missed how we "used to be". She wants to spend more time together and get back to being "best friends again". Going forward I have decided that I will make this more of a priority in my household. To spend more quality time together and perhaps revisiting some of our old hobbies and activities.

I would say it was the most productive conversation we have ever had, at least regarding this specific problem. I do think that it was a bit of a wake up call for her but at the same time I realized there are some things that I need to work on and if I do I know she will become much more receptive to having more/better sex. I don't think that things will change overnight and I know there is still a lot of work ahead but I do feel that we are headed back in the right direction and I think I am probably more optimistic about things actually changing than I have ever been in the past. 

Oasis649


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I’ve seen those types of conversations hundreds of times. You’re about to get reset. Good frequent sex for a couple weeks. Then back to the normal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

Having a productive meeting and having productive results are 2 different things. If your results are temporary, your actions from this point forward may be to blame.

Suggestions.

1) Keep the ball rolling. Ask her out on a date. Suit and tie. Open the doors and hold her hand. Let her know that dates are for fun, not for the intention of getting sex. Let her know the only expectation you have is for a lot of kisses.

2) Your wife was willing giving you sex once a week. You want another day. I strongly suggest you tell her that the 2nd day is for attending to HER needs, even if it does not end up with your needs being fulfilled. Get off on getting her off. Make it a gift she is looking forward to. If you do this, you may get the 3rd day.

3) Kiss her. A lot. Like you did 20 years ago.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oasis649 said:


> Hi, this must be the post you are referring to:
> 
> That's the thing..............I do know how to push her buttons. I think that she just has a very low sex drive and she is satisfied with just once a week. She has said several times that's all she needs and anything more than that is for ME.
> 
> ...


This is actually a pretty good start. From this point, show your appreciation for her willingness to communicate about it. From this point forward, if she is willing to attempt any thing that you ask of her, respond with appreciation and praise. If you can make her feel important and appreciates for being willing to work with you, then she will want to work with you. It will feel good and fulfilling for her to work with you. Do not give her empty flattery, but do not miss an opportunity to show her how much you appreciate her efforts. 

If she fails to keep her word, having a predetermined "consequence" will be less destructive to your efforts than criticism. It should be specific, for specific grievances. The Ide is that you provide a consequence that is no more unpleasant for her than what she caused you to feel, and then you drop it and forget it because you have already addressed it. For instance, my wife once told me thatbifbi didn't get out of bed and go with her, as I had promised I would, then she would throw ice in bed with me. She did, and then she let it go. As annoying as that was, there was no emotional sting to it like there would have been if she just berated me for "sleeping all the time". I had plenty of good reasons for being exhausted, but I felt no need to defend myself since she wasn't actually accusing me of anything. I built no resentment from it, and neither did she, because had addressed the issue. In the end, we both laughed about it, after I had time to fully wake up.

Moving from conversation to actual changes is another of those steps that people often muck up, usually because they fail to change what they do themselves. It is going to feel clumsy at first, you will forget to show appreciation when you should. When you remember that you forgot to show appreciation, tell her. "Wife, you did XYZ and I forgot to thank you. I just wanted you to know that I noticed, and that I appreciate it". 

This is the part where you start encouraging her to cooperate. Humans crave the feeling of being important. If you can be the source of her sense of importance, and make her feel appreciated, you will be surprised at what she will be willing to do for you.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I’ve seen those types of conversations hundreds of times. You’re about to get reset. Good frequent sex for a couple weeks. Then back to the normal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @Akinaura and I went through cycle like this, for about a year. Truth is, both if us were really clumsy at changing the way we interacted with each other. 

The key was to consistently apply the kinds of things I mentioned to oasis above. By the end of that first year, we were both sure that we would never be the same. Despite a hell of a lot of stressful events since then, we have never gone back to where we were.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Oasis649 said:


> Because if something is important to you, you suck it up and do it tired or not. I feel after 20 years of telling somebody how important this is, that I need this, being tired is not an excuse.


Wow. I can't imagine why she isn't ALL over you with that incredibly sexy attitude of yours.



> I'm tired every damn day but I still do things that I don't want to do because they are important to my wife, friends, kids. Another reason I call B.S on the "tired card" is............well we go on vacation for 2 weeks without a care in world, lots of rest and relaxation...............and it's still the same.


And so does SHE. She works AND she does most of the domestic work at home and the child-rearing as well. You said yourself you 'stepped up' and _increased_ some of your participation in doing your SHARE at home but you're still leaving the lion's share of it on HER and you *know* it.

And you know damned well you wanting sex more than her has NOTHING to do with you wanting to 'show her love' or 'bond' with her. It has EVERYTHING to do with you just wanting to get off and you prove it in your post when yo whine about how she should do it whether she likes it or not and how she needs to give you quickies so you can get off in 10 minutes. So don't even try and sell that bull**** about you seeing as some kind of expression of love cause that ain't happening.

You're just another chore to an already overworked, overtired woman.

It took you almost 20 years to start throwing out your phony threats of leaving.

How many more years will it take you to finally *leave *and find that fantasy woman whose sole reason for being on this earth is to cater to YOU sexually, then turn herself into a pizza and 6-pack when she's done? She's out there. I just know she is!



> We both work from home and there is nobody around. It's not like we don't have the opportunity to do it at any time during the day and yet out of 5 weekdays a week she can't "find the time" for a quickie here or there? For me, its just another excuse.


Again, I can't imagine WHY she's not all over the opportunity to bend over for you and let you use her as a receptical because YOU'RE horny. It sounds downright magical to me. Maybe you can get her when she's scrubbing the tub or doing the dishes - that way she can continue doing whatever chore she's doing and you can get your 'relief.' 



> I resent her for it. I know this isn't good and I try to push those feelings down and not dwell on them. I just couldn't imagine doing that to somebody I love. That I have something within my power to make them happy and yet I refuse to do it. It bothers me greatly.


For the love of God, just LEAVE.



> But I have pretty much made the decision that this is it.........I will leave and move on. I am going to suggest...........morning sex as an option and really working at it. Set the alarm 10 mins early and have at er. Quickies here and there when possible/or required. Mid day sex. I believe the above will completely destroy the tired/no time argument. And I won't put everything on her. I would be willing to try anything she suggest, counselling, whatever. Regardless, all the cards are going on the table.


Do you have any idea how pathetic you look? One minute, you're actually manning the hell up for a huge change and making the choice to leave and the next, you're right back to hanging onto her skirt and coming up with some other LAME feeble little 'work around' like all the others that *haven't* worked in the last 20 years.



> Don't know if it's the right play but I'm just so tired of it all. It's my play and my last effort.


LOL. Not it's not your 'last' effort. It's just lame plan #692 that will crash and burn just like all the others you've come up with that didn't work before this newest brainchild. And when this one crashes and burns in a week or two, you'll just come up with lame plan #693 - and threat #6 about how you're _really_ leaving this time.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Wow. , just LEAVE.


Some solid advice there. You probably got bogged down in all of the mind reading and wild speculation, so I distilled it down to the basic message. The woman in your life thinks you are slime mold between her toes. No need for last hail Mary chances, just go. After you leave she can find that magical unicorn that brings home six figures, loves doing laundry, and hates blow jobs.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Wow. I can't imagine why she isn't ALL over you with that incredibly sexy attitude of yours.
> 
> And so does SHE. She works AND she does most of the domestic work at home and the child-rearing as well. You said yourself you 'stepped up' and _increased_ some of your participation in doing your SHARE at home but you're still leaving the lion's share of it on HER and you *know* it.
> 
> ...



do you enjoy demeaning and belittling people for their problems in life?


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## Townes (Jan 31, 2018)

I would suggest you never take hostages at any point in your future because you would make a terrible negotiator. Your wife on the other hand...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> do you enjoy demeaning and belittling people for their problems in life?




She’s been on a lot of man hating rants lately. Pretty sure she’s struggling in real life right now. 


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> do you enjoy demeaning and belittling people for their problems in life?


Just men.
Standard operating procedure.

Not need to trust me.
Her posting history is a testament by itself.
Look for yourself.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> Just men.
> Standard operating procedure.
> 
> Not need to trust me.
> ...


yeah, i noticed. its pretty bad...


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## Oasis649 (Apr 4, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Wow. I can't imagine why she isn't ALL over you with that incredibly sexy attitude of yours.
> 
> And so does SHE. She works AND she does most of the domestic work at home and the child-rearing as well. You said yourself you 'stepped up' and _increased_ some of your participation in doing your SHARE at home but you're still leaving the lion's share of it on HER and you *know* it.
> 
> ...


Whatever. I wont even bother explaining or justifying myself against your accusations. You know nothing about me or my marriage and you have made quite a few assumptions that are just flat our wrong. I am on here trying to find answers to my questions that will result in a stronger/better relationship. You're on here and in this thread for what reason exactly? To belittle and insult strangers who you know nothing about or just keeping up on your man hating skills?

Find somewhere else to gripe!

Oasis649


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Townes said:


> I would suggest you never take hostages at any point in your future because you would make a terrible negotiator. Your wife on the other hand...


This perspective really puzzles me. Just what do you expect?

There are three possible outcomes:

1. Wife keeps going as is, no change.
2. Wife has more sex but under sufferance.
3. Wife has more sex enthusiastically and willingly.

I can see a "negotiation" leading to 1 or 2, but neither of those is a win-win outcome. I don't think you can get to 3 by negotation. 

I don't have any magic bullet to suggest, beyond thinking clearly about your expectations. The wife has just as much right as the husband to her preferences.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> And you know damned well you wanting sex more than her has NOTHING to do with you wanting to 'show her love' or 'bond' with her. It has EVERYTHING to do with you just wanting to get off and you prove it in your post when yo whine about how she should do it whether she likes it or not and how she needs to give you quickies so you can get off in 10 minutes. So don't even try and sell that bull**** about you seeing as some kind of expression of love cause that ain't happening.


This quote suggests to me that you have no idea at all where sex hangs in some men's psyche, nor how much emotion is connected to it. There is certainly a physical drive, but there is so much more. What is it that makes a couple lovers instead of friends?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Cromer said:


> I divorced rather than live a sexless Hell anymore. 30 years gone. But it was a lot more complicated than I'd imagined. I stayed thinking it would change, but it didn't. Sorry, my friend. You can read my story with the link below if you want. Good luck.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/378298-getting-ready-drop-news.html


*Staying in a marriage under the jaded guise that the amount of sex in it will change upwardly or get better, is one of the most overused fallacies of all time!

Languishing about, either in the perception of hope, or even in fear about this, is totally irrational! *


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