# This week's counseling. SO confused.



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

So I'm posting this to get my thoughts out of my head, and also because I'm confused.

I didn't feel like the counselor backed me up on the point about my H losing his temper--he way overrreacted--and I don't get it....???
Am I in the wrong?
Or is he just looking at our overall pattern and seeing how BOTH of us can stop our cycle?

So if anybody has any feedback, I'll be, as usual, grateful.

Main issues:

I'm sick of him losing his temper when we're discussing something, could be anything.
He loses it in response to my repeating a point or a question.
I told him: "If you'd say, 'I see your point' or 'I understand why you see it that way,' I'm less likely to repeat myself."

JUST ACKNOWLEDGE MY POINT AND I'LL MOVE ON.

This sense that I feel "dismissed" or "invalidated" or "unimportant" to him, when I say something, is an overall climate in our relatoinship; it's NOT incidental.
I shared this feeling with him, he seemed to hear and understand me.

The take-away from our session:
Counselor said we are "competitive" with each other and we need to deal differently with those arguments so we don't "compete."
Wish I had a better idea of HOW...my head is just cloudy over it, and I'm sick of this.

Another thing that DIDN'T get mentioned (not enough time):
Lately my H only touches me when he wants sex.
Sure, there's mild hand-holding and hand-on-the-back in public, but he hasn't held me in bed and cuddled in awhile, unless he's looking for action. In our conflicted times, that's when I need that most.

If anyone has any thoughts or advice, please share...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Pandakiss said:


> h--
> 
> sorry you are having one of those days.......
> 
> ...


Yes, we do this. 

counseling actually did help us see that today, a little.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You spend alot of time testing him, and he keeps failing.
I will say he is reacting to these tests as a typical man which is to say he gets frustrated and angry. If you want things to change you should break the cycle and spend about 3 months meeting his needs. Typically these would be for sexual fulfillment, respect and admiration. If you selflessly try this without the constant testing one of two things will happen. 1. HE will love his life, love his marriage and become motivated to do whatever it takes to meet your needs at which point you start telling him what your needs are or 2. You will discover he is incapable of doing so and you plan a different route for your future. If you stick with counseling, the topic to discuss should be "what actions can I take to make you feel more loved?" If you are hell bent on forcing him to meet your needs in an environment where he is a) unclear as to what they are and b) not in a happy, motiviated place, then I don't see anythign changing.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> You spend alot of time testing him, and he keeps failing.
> I will say he is reacting to these tests as a typical man which is to say he gets frustrated and angry. If you want things to change you should break the cycle and spend about 3 months meeting his needs. Typically these would be for sexual fulfillment, respect and admiration. If you selflessly try this without the constant testing one of two things will happen. 1. HE will love his life, love his marriage and become motivated to do whatever it takes to meet your needs at which point you start telling him what your needs are or 2. You will discover he is incapable of doing so and you plan a different route for your future. If you stick with counseling, the topic to discuss should be "what actions can I take to make you feel more loved?" If you are hell bent on forcing him to meet your needs in an environment where he is a) unclear as to what they are and b) not in a happy, motiviated place, then I don't see anythign changing.


I hear you. I probably am testing him, even if it's unconscious.

So what does that mean for me in these next 3 months?
I accept every word and behavior I don't like, including the things he does *without* me "testing" him?
Do I never express a different opinion even if I disagree?

It just sounds like all the problems and the eventual solution rest on my shoulders, and I don't see how that's realistic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> It just sounds like all the problems and the eventual solution rest on my shoulders, and I don't see how that's realistic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is an example of a test. You took something I said, changed it around in your mind, and concluded that it can't work. By doing this type of thing to your husband you are unconsciously testing him. No doubt he is failing these tests and has a huge amount of work to do on his side. However, you can only change you.

What I would propose that if he does something you don't like, ignore it and replace your angry thought with a positive thought such as "This will go away once he recognizes how great I am". Have faith that you will see his angry outbursts decline if you back off on the challenges. Have faith that he will change when the environment changes. And, have faith that even if he never comes around, you will have learned alot that you can use in a future relationship.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> So I'm posting this to get my thoughts out of my head, and also because I'm confused.
> 
> I didn't feel like the counselor backed me up on the point about my H losing his temper--he way overrreacted--and I don't get it....???
> Am I in the wrong?
> ...


How has the effective limit setting been going? Are you successfully able to tell him that WHEN he is calm THEN you can resume the conversation?





> He loses it in response to my repeating a point or a question.
> I told him: "If you'd say, 'I see your point' or 'I understand why you see it that way,' I'm less likely to repeat myself."
> 
> JUST ACKNOWLEDGE MY POINT AND I'LL MOVE ON.
> ...


I hope you can hear that I am not trying to be critical here. I know my husband has a TERRIBLE time just listening and acknowledging. In our case, we crack a joke about it and move on. 

The question I ask you is why do you need to be "validated"? Aren't you valid on your own? A few things come to mind here. One, are you insecure? Do you require validation in order to buttress self esteem issues? If you do, please recognize that no one can do that. 

The next thought is that if I told my husband I felt invalidated or unimportant, he would look at me with spittle hanging out of his mouth like What the HELL is she saying to me?? He would want to know what I want him to DO. He would have no idea what invalidated means. It sounds like he is not yet inclined to WANT to do what you ask. But when you get there, focusing on specifics might help.

My last thought on this bit is it sounds like you are stuck in a right fight. While it would be nice to be able to say gee dear I would like you to communicate with me thusly, we see how well that works! The truth of the matter is your way is no more RIGHT than his way (except for the anger and yelling of course, which you are working on with effective limit setting). You are trying to change him. And like anyone, he resists change since he thought you loved him the way he was. As paradoxical as it seems, you won't engender the desire to change until and unless you accept not making a requirement out of the change.




> The take-away from our session:
> Counselor said we are "competitive" with each other and we need to deal differently with those arguments so we don't "compete."


The competition you are engaging in is a massive right fight, in my opinion. I agree with your counselor. One or the other of you needs to lead the charge to stop fighting for who is RIGHT and start trying really hard to see the OTHER PoV in order to offer effective SOLUTIONS. You each are trying to bludgeon the other into seeing YOUR way.




> Wish I had a better idea of HOW...my head is just cloudy over it, and I'm sick of this.
> 
> Another thing that DIDN'T get mentioned (not enough time):
> Lately my H only touches me when he wants sex.
> ...


Age old. He is trying to reconnect through sex. You want connection in order to want sex. Recognize what he is trying to do so you don't add "he only wants me for sex" to your list of resentments.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks, I got your point and had no intention of twisting your words. I just DO feel like all the changes we need to make must start with me.
Your suggestion for how to respond in my mind "he'll realize when he sees how great I am" is helpful to me, thank you.

Vt..i don't know if my limit setting on the yelling is "working."
he only yells after a certain frustration point, and I think we need to stop ourselves from getting to that point.
That's the "right fight" or "competitive" fighting cycle we're in.

As for the validation/dismissal thing...
I'm not generally insecure to a debilitating degree, I just don't like being dismissed by the one person who's supposed to be closest to me; I want to be appreciated and liked by him for who I am.
His indifferent "whatever" air bothers me.

I may need to reread your reply more closely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Vt..i don't know if my limit setting on the yelling is "working."
> he only yells after a certain frustration point, and I think we need to stop ourselves from getting to that point.
> That's the "right fight" or "competitive" fighting cycle we're in.


Disagree. They are 2 different issues. 

Issue one: arguments that get heated. SOMEONE needs to stop this habit. He isn't here, or I would tell him to do it. When it starts to get heated, get out of the discussion until you can both be calm.

Issue two: the right fight. The right fight is you both want your own point of view more than you want harmonious solutions. You get mad at the word tiny. It doesn't matter that HE never meant it as a criticism. And it is more important to get that through to you that he didn't mean ti as a criticism than to say geez sorry that bummed you out. THAT is your right fight and it repeats itself over a zillion little issues every day.




> As for the validation/dismissal thing...
> I'm not generally insecure to a debilitating degree, I just don't like being dismissed by the one person who's supposed to be closest to me; I want to be appreciated and liked by him for who I am.
> His indifferent "whatever" air bothers me.


I would bet my last dollar that this is just another right fight. He is not trying to dismiss you. He is just as frustrated by you as you are by him.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Hicks, I got your point and had no intention of twisting your words. I just DO feel like all the changes we need to make must start with me.
> Your suggestion for how to respond in my mind "he'll realize when he sees how great I am" is helpful to me, thank you.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All the changes you need to make start with you. All the changes he needs to make start with him. However, one person needs to take the leap of faith to change themself. In the time you are doing this focus on ACTIONS instead of TALK and don't look for constant validation that it is working.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Disagree. They are 2 different issues.
> 
> Issue one: arguments that get heated. SOMEONE needs to stop this habit. He isn't here, or I would tell him to do it. When it starts to get heated, get out of the discussion until you can both be calm.
> 
> ...



Hi VT!
You, as usual, have such sound advice!!:smthumbup: However, as a completely competitive person myself I understand the problem of feeling that why do I have to suck it up and take one for the team! I too can't seem to give in to give up the right fight. Obviously, you think your view point is correct and can't see how your husband (or anyone else) can't see it as correct. That being said, how do you just give up your position without feeling you are caving? :scratchhead:


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## FCHAVEZ (Jan 20, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Another thing that DIDN'T get mentioned (not enough time):
> Lately my H only touches me when he wants sex.
> Sure, there's mild hand-holding and hand-on-the-back in public, but he hasn't held me in bed and cuddled in awhile, unless he's looking for action. In our conflicted times, that's when I need that most.
> 
> If anyone has any thoughts or advice, please share...


Why don't you cuddle with him and hold him. If a man feels disconnected they don't know what to do. If I hold her whats gonna happen, will she reject me. You need to take the initiative and hold him. Let him know that you love him and through it all you still want to feel close and intimate with him. 

Also in regards to the wanting to feel like your validated in what you say...if you keep at it all that is going to do is put the defense wall up and he will no longer be listening. Just say it once and move on.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Another thing that DIDN'T get mentioned (not enough time):
> Lately my H only touches me when he wants sex.
> Sure, there's mild hand-holding and hand-on-the-back in public, but he hasn't held me in bed and cuddled in awhile, unless he's looking for action. In our conflicted times, that's when I need that most.


Sometimes you have to count your blessings even if they feel like they're not.

At least your husband is touching you and wants sex. Some of us here don't even have that.

And hand-holding and hand-on-the-back in public, I think I would die and think I was in heaven if my husband did any sort of PDA in public.

So while I understand that this is an issue for you, please see it as a blessing that he still desires you and wants to touch you, regardless of the reason. 

I would give anything to even have this much.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Good points. I know I should count my blessings and that things could be worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Credamdóchasgra, Why not, next time round, just ask your H the question “How do we get to a Win/Win solution?”.

If you are both really that competitive you will both be going for a “Win”. But that type of Win means one of you Lose.

So your ideal end result will be “I Win/You Lose” That’s what you want!

Your H’s ideal end result will also be “I Win/You Lose”. That’s what he wants!

In either of the above scenarios one of you is going to be the Loser. Never going to work is it? 

Win/Win is the only way ahead.

But sometimes getting to a Win/Win solution takes a lot of negotiation and probably involves compromise. If you’ve both got poor negotiation skills, if the arguments are based on egotistical needs (I must Win no matter what! I hate to Lose!) and neither of you are prepared to compromise then things will stay the same as they are now.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

"win/win" may be a good way to put it.

I give my H credit for being the one to say yesterday in counseling:

"When either one of us hears 'no' from the other, we don't like it, and we compete to get our point across."

I couldn't believe he was able to make this observation. Hallelujah.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> "win/win" may be a good way to put it.
> 
> I give my H credit for being the one to say yesterday in counseling:
> 
> ...


It’s not about “points”. That’s just competition for competitions sake. You can point score your marriage to death. Points are just an ego thing. That’s all points are. One or both of you have to drop your ego otherwise they’ll do great deal of damage to your marriage.

Working together on “solutions”, not points, is the way ahead. And when you’re talking and having a chat, take your egos off the table so you can see the very much bigger picture that’s there but you can’t see it because you’re blinded by your ego. And if that solution is not win/win then it’ll very quickly collapse and you’ll be back to square one.

Here’s a good, well proven structure for you …

Situation: Describe the background situation.
Problem: Describe the problem.
Implications: Describe the implications of the problem, what will happen if the problem goes unresolved.
Need Payoff: Describe the solution and how it benefits you both. That is the win/win nature of the solution.


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## sunshine31 (Feb 1, 2010)

Credam,
I read your post this morning and honestly...It could have been written by me as that is EXACTLY the problems I have with my husband. Only difference is I have not been bold enough to get to the point of counciling yet. I have a great life with my husband...except when I try to talk to him. I ask him normal questions and by the 3rd one he is annoyed and he will tell me that he does not want to talk about it anymore. That is my que to shut my mouth or he will BLOW UP on me. Sometimes it only takes one question. Then he blames it on me because I don't always want to stop talking about it because often is is over very mundane stuff, but sometimes important things that need to be discussed. I calmly ask him to remain in the conversation and not get upset but that makes him even more upset.
All the advice that the ladies have been giving you are great, but i'm not sure how beneficial in the long run. Do these other women live in a world where they never tell their husbands what they think or state their opinions on matters if it differs from the mans? Do they feel comfortable being able to talk to thier partners? I am asking ladies...do you feel that?
I have a great husband in that we can do anything together...except talk. I have let him know on many occasions that we should be able to have discussions with differing opinions on topics and not have him get all mad. There are many times in my marriage where I have KNOW FOR A FACT that my recollection or opinion is correct and I have shut my mouth because he will get mad if I keep questioning it. And instead of me saying "I told you so" when he sees that I was correct I keep my mouth shut again because I feel that gets people nowhere (even though he freely does it to me when I am incorrect about something).
Anyway, if you keep your mouth shut for 3 months and worship the ground he walks on....will it be any better after 4 months and you start being human again and speaking? I doubt it, but i'd sure like to hope and pray that it would!!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

sunshine31 said:


> Credam,
> I read your post this morning and honestly...It could have been written by me as that is EXACTLY the problems I have with my husband. Only difference is I have not been bold enough to get to the point of counciling yet. I have a great life with my husband...except when I try to talk to him. I ask him normal questions and by the 3rd one he is annoyed and he will tell me that he does not want to talk about it anymore. That is my que to shut my mouth or he will BLOW UP on me. Sometimes it only takes one question. Then he blames it on me because I don't always want to stop talking about it because often is is over very mundane stuff, but sometimes important things that need to be discussed. I calmly ask him to remain in the conversation and not get upset but that makes him even more upset.
> All the advice that the ladies have been giving you are great, but i'm not sure how beneficial in the long run. Do these other women live in a world where they never tell their husbands what they think or state their opinions on matters if it differs from the mans? Do they feel comfortable being able to talk to thier partners? I am asking ladies...do you feel that?
> I have a great husband in that we can do anything together...except talk. I have let him know on many occasions that we should be able to have discussions with differing opinions on topics and not have him get all mad. There are many times in my marriage where I have KNOW FOR A FACT that my recollection or opinion is correct and I have shut my mouth because he will get mad if I keep questioning it. And instead of me saying "I told you so" when he sees that I was correct I keep my mouth shut again because I feel that gets people nowhere (even though he freely does it to me when I am incorrect about something).
> Anyway, if you keep your mouth shut for 3 months and worship the ground he walks on....will it be any better after 4 months and you start being human again and speaking? I doubt it, but i'd sure like to hope and pray that it would!!


You can argue until the cows come home, if they ever do, about opinions and historical facts. And all it well get you is more of the same. Don’t you now have enough proof of that?

Of course those things, especially your opinions, are very important to you. It’s the same with everybody. What we think and feel, our opinions, in part define who we are at our core.

But if we let our historical facts (yes, historical facts are subjective) and our opinions (subjective again) pre-empt and block any solutions to underlying problems then the problems will always remain. Like it or not your H will be looking to solve problems but at a guess your historical facts and your opinions are preventing even getting anywhere near to solving the problems between you.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> All the changes you need to make start with you. All the changes he needs to make start with him. However, one person needs to take the leap of faith to change themself. In the time you are doing this focus on ACTIONS instead of TALK and don't look for constant validation that it is working.


I'm willing to make the leap of faith, and to be honest, over the past few weeks I was.
But then I guess I "fell off the wagon" in reaction to his temper tantrum and inability to calmly and respectfully discuss something (which sunshine understands).

...which brings me to your next point, Hicks: "don't look for constant validation that it is working."
what happens is that I really set my mind to positive changes, showing him a different person than the one he's used to fighting with, being more cool, calm and collected, etc., then when he responds in a nasty way, (like losing his temper), I get mad because I know I'm trying so hard, and at some point, shouldn't he too?

And your last point, focusing on actions instead of talk...sounds right, though i'm not sure why you make this point. 
But it makes sense regarding my H because he's an "actions speak louder than words" guy.
In the past day and a half I've been sick with s stomach bug, and he's shown loving actions such as:
waking up at 4am to hold my hair, clean up my mess, make me tea 
coming home with ginger ale, saltines, movies, and a new toothbrush

The counselor said we're "leery" of each other. As crappy as that sounds, it seems true right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sunshine31 (Feb 1, 2010)

Kind of a funny point to focus on actions instead of talk when the whole point is to be able to talk.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Disagree. They are 2 different issues.
> 
> Issue one: arguments that get heated. SOMEONE needs to stop this habit. He isn't here, or I would tell him to do it. When it starts to get heated, get out of the discussion until you can both be calm.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is that EACH of us wanted the OTHER to see our "point" and neither of us was able to stop and say "Our harmony is more important than the meaning of the word 'tiny'" (or whatever).

I'll be honest, in the big picture, I truly WANT harmonious solution.

With the "tiny" thing, I wanted him to SEE how sensitive it was to me and therefore to give in for the sake of peace---my peace, I guess.
But I was no more able to see how bothersome it was to him that I repeated my point--"it wasn't tiny!!"--and to then leave it alone for the sake of peace.

I still maintain, however, that if i'm going to push myself to drop a topic until a better time, he needs to be able to discuss it at that time.
If anything ever gets heated or remotely uncomfortable, he'd rather yell about it, drop it, and then never go back to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

sunshine31 said:


> Kind of a funny point to focus on actions instead of talk when the whole point is to be able to talk.


Sunshine, I guess maybe we're supposed to start with what we "can" do, not the problems?
I don't know.
I know sometimes my H can talk about something, other times he can't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> And your last point, focusing on actions instead of talk...sounds right, though i'm not sure why you make this point.
> But it makes sense regarding my H because he's an "actions speak louder than words" guy.
> In the past day and a half I've been sick with s stomach bug, and he's shown loving actions such as:
> waking up at 4am to hold my hair, clean up my mess, make me tea
> ...


Did these actions make you feel more loved? Did you tell him that you appreciated it and appreciated him for doing it thus offering positive reinforcement? This is what I mean. What words can you say that are specifically designed to make him feel more loved by you? What actions can you take to make him feel more loved by you? What would be meaningful to him specifically?

The unproductive competition will end one one party chooses not to participate in it

Talking about problems in the relationship is toxic. Telling him what you want him to fix about himself is toxic. Talking in general about the relationship is not helpful. Focusing in your mind about all the things he needs to do to be a better husband will accomplish no changes in him but will build resentment in you.

There is a 50/50 chance that my suggestion will work. But there is a 100% chance that trying to talk it out and hoping the other party is the one to change will not work.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

That totally makes sense---less relationship talk---but what about when we do disagree about something?
Can't I disagree, understand his pov, and have mine understood too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> That totally makes sense---less relationship talk---but what about when we do disagree about something?
> Can't I disagree, understand his pov, and have mine understood too?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe an example would help but her is my suggest.
IF you disagree with something said tell him you disagree. Tell him your POV. Assume he is not deaf and heard you.
IF you are being treated in a way you don't like state how it makes you feel and state that it needs to stop. If it does not stop remove yourself from his presence. Using logic to argue your points in a marriage seldom works.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Example: he called our wedding "tiny," at 150 guests.
Bothered me because we both wanted a big wedding and we both put a lot of effort and money into it.
The people missing from our wedding were mostly his friends, and we were both disappointed that they hadn't come.
So I disagreed: "it was moderate. It bothers me when you call it tiny so please don't."
i wanted him to understand it made me feel bad to hear him call it tiny, like he was saying it was inferior to what we had wanted.
There's an example.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Credam,

We've been working on this very thing.

At the marriage builders forum, Willard Harley points out that pushing your point-of-view in conflict situations results (inevitably) as a disrespectful judgement.

I know you hate those as much as I do.

Realize, even when you are "working" on your relationship (and it feels like he isn't), it's LIKELY he feels your disrespectful judgement.

Think about how much you currently resent him.

It's simply not possible he doesn't feel this.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Realize, even when you are "working" on your relationship (and it feels like he isn't), it's LIKELY he feels your disrespectful judgement.
> 
> Think about how much you currently resent him.
> 
> It's simply not possible he doesn't feel this.


I'm sure he does feel it.

If I could clear out the resentment on my own and that would make me feel better, and by extension him, I would...

And I realize that my sensitivity about the word "tiny" in reference to our wedding runs deeper than that. I have sensitivities and resentments about the period of our engagement and wedding, overall. His calling it "tiny" touched THE NERVE associated with our wedding and my image of him as tyrannical, hyper-critical Groomzilla, for whom nothing is ever good enough.

OK, tangent ended. 

Can I clear out my resentments--over whatever--without ever talking to him about them?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

So why did he say it? Without any context I would say he was either upset that his friends were not there, or insecure about the amount of friends he has or insecure in some way about the wedding. But, size is in the eye of the beholder. No on can debate something is large or small. In the case above, "It hurts me when you criticize our wedding" is the best esponse. Then stop investing emotion in it and prevent your mind from dwelling on it. Think of what is behind his comment such as his insecurity or whatnot. 

Now, if he continues to do it after a few times you reinforce this boundary he keeps doing it, you then know the character of the man you married.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> So what you're saying is that EACH of us wanted the OTHER to see our "point" and neither of us was able to stop and say "Our harmony is more important than the meaning of the word 'tiny'" (or whatever).


Yes.



> I'll be honest, in the big picture, I truly WANT harmonious solution.
> 
> With the "tiny" thing, I wanted him to SEE how sensitive it was to me and therefore to give in for the sake of peace---my peace, I guess.


Yah and he wanted you to SEE how he did not mean what you were accusing him of saying. You both seem NOT to want the harmony more than to be right. And the funniest bit about it is you could bust the deadlock by simply saying Honey, I see your point. I even agree with your point that you did not mean to be critical. I will bet that the very next sentence out of his mouth would be something like, just the same I am sorry it made you feel that way. Maybe not in ONE conversation. But overall eventually.



> But I was no more able to see how bothersome it was to him that I repeated my point--"it wasn't tiny!!"--and to then leave it alone for the sake of peace.
> 
> I still maintain, however, that if i'm going to push myself to drop a topic until a better time, he needs to be able to discuss it at that time.
> 
> ...


To be completely honest, that is where an argument over the word tiny belongs, IMO.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> So why did he say it?


He said "I'm not saying anything bad by saying tiny," that he was just talking numbers in the grand scheme of weddings he's seen. 

I disagreed, told him "No, I think it was moderate," let him know that it bugged me for him to call it "tiny," and to please not say it anymore, so we both dropped it.

Then I repeated (in a last-word way): "It wasn't tiny."

At which point he lost his temper.

I explained my reasons for having a problem with the word "tiny," but by this point we were off to the races.

I kept saying, "I just want you to understand why it bothered me and why I saw it the way I did."

He yelled: "I did understand, I do understand, now drop it already!!"


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> And the funniest bit about it is you could bust the deadlock by simply saying Honey, I see your point. I even agree with your point that you did not mean to be critical. I will bet that the very next sentence out of his mouth would be something like, just the same I am sorry it made you feel that way. Maybe not in ONE conversation. But overall eventually.


OK, I'll try it.

I desperately want to hear "I see your point" from him.

I'll start noticing how often it comes out of MY mouth.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Don Ho singing "Tiny Bubbles" at your next wedding anniversary sounds appropriate. 

Time to lighten up the mood between the two of you.

You've forgotten perspective and how to pick what issue is worth falling on your sword over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

michzz said:


> Don Ho singing "Tiny Bubbles" at your next wedding anniversary sounds appropriate.
> 
> Time to lighten up the mood between the two of you.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Love it, wish we could laugh off more, more often.
Sometimes we can, and sometimes we only can after a little while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Can I clear out my resentments--over whatever--without ever talking to him about them?


Yup. Forgiveness is not for your H. It is for yourself.


If you don't do it, you'll be forever persecuting your husband.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Then stop investing emotion in it and prevent your mind from dwelling on it. Think of what is behind his comment such as his insecurity or whatnot.


THIS is the part I have a hard time doing.

STOPPING the investment of emotion in it.

PREVENTING my mind from dwelling on it.

I feel like the only thing that'll CLEAR IT UP is a better, "re-do" of a conversation with him about it.

But if he's not available for such a conversation, it won't go well.

So I'm left with what? Reassuring myself, making myself feel better about something that may or may not be in HIS mind, when HE'S the only one who can tell me what's really in his mind, and meet me in the middle...?

If I'm driving all of you nuts, please excuse me. I'm already there.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> He said "I'm not saying anything bad by saying tiny," that he was just talking numbers in the grand scheme of weddings he's seen.
> 
> I disagreed, told him "No, I think it was moderate," let him know that it bugged me for him to call it "tiny," and to please not say it anymore, so we both dropped it.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. You intentionally provoked his outrage. You have the power to control this just like your man has the power to control his physical superiority.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> I'm sorry. You intentionally provoked his outrage. You have the power to control this just like your man has the power to control his physical superiority.


I see that I played a role in the escalation. 

But if it still bothers me as it obviously does, how do I deal with it now, when I know that a decent conversation about it will truly "clear it up" for me, and I doubt he's open to a conversation about it right now?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Credam, you need to take a really hard look at why you cannot let his differing from you in a word used to describe your wedding is causing a big problem for you.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Credam, you need to take a really hard look at why you cannot let his differing from you in a word used to describe your wedding is causing a big problem for you.


because I'm interpreting "tiny" to mean "not good enough."
I interpret that partly because HE insisted on the best, most expensive, most showy and "impressive" things for our wedding, on HIS way in a few things, and because we both wanted lots of people there. Yes, he did a lot of the legwork himself, but was a bit of a pill sometimes too.
He insisted on throwing two post-wedding parties for his friends who couldn't come or weren't invited.
Also because MY interpretation of "tiny" is "disappointing."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> because I'm interpreting "tiny" to mean "not good enough."


So you are placing YOUR judgment on his words. he has told you over and over that he did not mean not good enough.



> I interpret that partly because HE insisted on the best, most expensive, most showy and "impressive" things for our wedding, on HIS way in a few things, and because we both wanted lots of people there. Yes, he did a lot of the legwork himself, but was a bit of a pill sometimes too.
> He insisted on throwing two post-wedding parties for his friends who couldn't come or weren't invited.
> Also because MY interpretation of "tiny" is "disappointing."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hasn't he said more than once that he does not mean disappointing? Another question... what if he WAS disappointed? Is he free to be disappointed?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

sunshine31 said:


> Credam,
> I read your post this morning and honestly...It could have been written by me as that is EXACTLY the problems I have with my husband. Only difference is I have not been bold enough to get to the point of counciling yet. I have a great life with my husband...except when I try to talk to him. I ask him normal questions and by the 3rd one he is annoyed and he will tell me that he does not want to talk about it anymore. That is my que to shut my mouth or he will BLOW UP on me. Sometimes it only takes one question. Then he blames it on me because I don't always want to stop talking about it because often is is over very mundane stuff, but sometimes important things that need to be discussed. I calmly ask him to remain in the conversation and not get upset but that makes him even more upset.
> All the advice that the ladies have been giving you are great, but i'm not sure how beneficial in the long run. Do these other women live in a world where they never tell their husbands what they think or state their opinions on matters if it differs from the mans? Do they feel comfortable being able to talk to thier partners? I am asking ladies...do you feel that?
> I have a great husband in that we can do anything together...except talk. I have let him know on many occasions that we should be able to have discussions with differing opinions on topics and not have him get all mad. There are many times in my marriage where I have KNOW FOR A FACT that my recollection or opinion is correct and I have shut my mouth because he will get mad if I keep questioning it. And instead of me saying "I told you so" when he sees that I was correct I keep my mouth shut again because I feel that gets people nowhere (even though he freely does it to me when I am incorrect about something).
> Anyway, if you keep your mouth shut for 3 months and worship the ground he walks on....will it be any better after 4 months and you start being human again and speaking? I doubt it, but i'd sure like to hope and pray that it would!!


What I've discovered from my husband and feedback from other men is not that they don't want to hear us talk or hear how things are going, but they don't want to hear a 15-minute dissertation on how difficult it was to try and find a parking spot at Wal Mart after work...this is where the problem comes in.

Men have smaller attention spans than women (brains work differently) and its why women are, for the most part, better at multi-tasking. So they will concentrate for short spans of time and if something exceeds that, they no longer pay attention, don't want to pay attention and get aggravated and frustrated and just want to "make it stop."

Does that make it right or wrong, no. It just makes it different.

And we, as women, like to give that 15-minute disseration on how difficult it as to try and find a parking spot at Wal Mart after work...that is where our best girlfriends, mothers and captive kids (can't speak up) come into play!

I'm a talker, my husband is quiet. I can talk for hours, he can listen for about 10 minutes tops - less now since his TBI - his brain can't concentrate for longer than that.

So, our counselor suggested a kitchen timer. I bought one.

When I want to speak about something that I know is mundane or something he really doesn't want to hear (like about....uh feelings), then I can set the timer and say whatever I want and he will listen until the timer goes off. This is what we've agreed to and will start now since I purchased the timer.

I get out what I want to say, he listens and knows that he isn't going to have to hear a 15-min dissertation and we'll both be happy. For me, I don't need him to care or be jumping up and down at any news I have or anything I want to talk about, I just want his undivided attention while I talk and then I'm okay. Hell, I could talk to a dog if I knew they were listening...I think it's about just being "heard."

I've also learned how to "edit" how I speak to my husband and get less into useless details and more into substance. Men listen better this way - they don't care about the final details - cause and effect, that's what they're looking for.

Try shortening what you have to say - get to the point. Get a kitchen timer and have him agree to listen to you for 5 mins or 10 mins and say nothing. If you need more, call your best girlfriend. Doesn't mean your husband doesn't love you, he's just not capable of hearing all the yak, yak, yak - seriously.

Never know, it might work out.

It doesn't really make him an a**hole, it just makes him different. The book Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus is great and really points out the differences between men and women and how they communicate, etc.

It's taught me a lot - but, I'm not perfect, still learning.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Well, I guess he told me once that he didn't mean it in a bad way.
----but in the heated yelling, the message wasn't clear. It was angry so I'm not sure what he really wanted to say.

Yes, he's entitled to be disappointed.
If he would SAY that, I would understand.

I even told him the reason "tiny" bugged me was because I felt disappointed FOR HIM that his people weren't there.
But that didn't get through to him. All he heard was me pushing my point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> THIS is the part I have a hard time doing.
> 
> STOPPING the investment of emotion in it.
> 
> ...


I had my counselor tell me yesterday that I keep projecting my emotions and my thoughts about what my husband said, versus what he actually said and that it is causing the disconnect in our communication.

And you know what, he's right!

He takes what I say at face value, why is it so hard for me to take what he says at face value - I don't know, but I'm working on it.

But why don't you try what I'm trying - take what he says at face value? Dont' try to apply your own interpretations to what he actually said? Don't take what he actually says as having any kind of hidden agenda...if he says he wasn't disappointed, then take him at his word, he wasn't disappointed. He's a big boy - if he WAS actually disappointed, he has the ability to tell you so. If he was disappointed and chooses to tell you he wasn't, well that's his CHOICE - listen to what he says, take it at face value and move on.

THAT is what I'm trying to do and learn.

And it sounds like I'm starting to get it.....:smthumbup:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I had my counselor tell me yesterday that I keep projecting my emotions and my thoughts about what my husband said, versus what he actually said and that it is causing the disconnect in our communication.
> 
> And you know what, he's right!
> 
> He takes what I say at face value, why is it so hard for me to take what he says at face value - I don't know, but I'm working on it.


This is kinda what I mean by lightening up. Also not taking things personally I got really lucky on this front when I faced the same dilemma. I am the youngest in a large family. Growing up I used to get hurt by my older brothers' jokes. Then I finally decided that they could stick their stupid jokes where the sun don't shine, recognizing their ... whatever caused them to be such dopes was a small part of the greater thing that was great brothers. Learning the lesson previously with my brothers helped me A LOT when learning the lesson with my husband.

It is in MY best interest to stop asking myself shouldn't he be doing this and shouldn't it be like that. And start lightening up. 

I am going to be completely honest here. Likely get a load from the gents here. I think when these poor communication habits and cycles get started, that women are the stronger, smarter and more capable to lead the relationship back from the brink. Change the dynamic. Engender the response we want. In the words of a good friend of mine, we need to put on our big girl panties and deal.

Left to the men, they will be assured that they are right and wonder why they aren't getting laid more.

Obviously this is no where near universal. But when right fights are the issue, it seems to frequently be the case.



> But why don't you try what I'm trying - take what he says at face value? Dont' try to apply your own interpretations to what he actually said? Don't take what he actually says as having any kind of hidden agenda...if he says he wasn't disappointed, then take him at his word, he wasn't disappointed. He's a big boy - if he WAS actually disappointed, he has the ability to tell you so. If he was disappointed and chooses to tell you he wasn't, well that's his CHOICE - listen to what he says, take it at face value and move on.
> 
> THAT is what I'm trying to do and learn.
> 
> And it sounds like I'm starting to get it.....:smthumbup:



Yay! Good advice.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Well, I guess he told me once that he didn't mean it in a bad way.
> ----but in the heated yelling, the message wasn't clear. It was angry so I'm not sure what he really wanted to say.
> 
> Yes, he's entitled to be disappointed.
> ...


Good God woman! Do you realize how frustrated your husband must be talking to you? I'm going to be blunt.

You quibble with him over the most trivial of stuff. And I have no doubt in my mind it is an endless sea of "tiny" definitions where you discredit any other interpretation other than your own and get offended with him if he doesn't even see the issue whatsoever.

He knows before he utters anything that you will be jumping down his throat.

Please step back and reassess your behavior.

I'm not defending any crappy thing he may be doing to you, btw. But this type of interaction is not good for you, your husband, your marriage.

Do you really care that much over the definition of "tiny"?

And further, replace "tiny" in the sentence above with an endless set of terms that you want him to agree with you on what it means and whether it offends you.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

michzz said:


> Good God woman! Do you realize how frustrated your husband must be talking to you? I'm going to be blunt.
> 
> You quibble with him over the most trivial of stuff. And I have no doubt in my mind it is any endless sea of "tiny" definitions where you discredit any other interpretation other than your own and get offended with him if he doesn't even see the issue whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Sorry to say, credma, but I have to agree with michzz here.


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## sunshine31 (Feb 1, 2010)

To married wife in love...first, i'm sorry that your husband has had a TBI, must be tough to deal with. I would like to dispell your theory about women though...I am NOT a talker. I don't talk much, listen to my husband speak about mundane stuff more than I speak about it myself. So when i DO actually want to talk and discuss something and the man gets annoyed and frustrated and upset because he cannot handle talking...I say he needs to get over himself! I am all for altering self behavior to an extent, but being the only one to bend back will eventually cause someone to break.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Yes, our counselor told me to work on not "reacting to my interpretation of his words." I guess taking them at face value is part of that.

Michzz, your post made me laugh. 

I think my H and I both need to lighten up.

I am going to have to be the one to put on my big girl panties and start the changes.
I've been saying this for a few months now...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I see that I played a role in the escalation.
> 
> But if it still bothers me as it obviously does, how do I deal with it now, when I know that a decent conversation about it will truly "clear it up" for me, and I doubt he's open to a conversation about it right now?


You had the conversation. He was insensitive but not trying to be hurtful to you. This happens. You told him how you felt. He understood it and acknowledged it. 

Anything that happened after you intentionally provoked his anger should not be held against him.

How you deal with it now is every time you think about it replace it with a happy thought or a thought that says it would be unproductive to bring it up again, or a thought that says he did understand my point, or any thought that is convenient which prevents you from constantly opening the wound. 

Also, the counseling is probably an opportunity for you to bring up and wallow in wounds as well.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Sure, sometimes that does happen at counseling.
I'd rather we use it to move forward rather than rehash, but it can be the only place where we can clear things up.

Your suggestions for how to deal when it bugs me are helpful, I appreciate that.

But...I didn't "intentionally" provoke his anger. 
My intention was to be heard, not make him angry.
Isn't he responsible for his own escalating temper, just as I'm responsible for my emotions?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Question: how did you get to this "tiny" wedding subject? I mean did it come up in some general conversation or in the middle of an argument about something different altogether?


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## Orion (Jul 17, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> But...I didn't "intentionally" provoke his anger.


credamdóchasgra,

I read this thread and I beg to differ with you on this point. You earlier said that (even though the issue was pretty much dying) you said "It wasn't tiny" in a "last-word-kind-of-way". What reaction were you expecting after that?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

@rs: I commented that my cousin had told us she was having a "tiny" wedding and that's why we weren't invited, but that in the pics it looked no bigger than ours.
He said, "ours was tiny."

@Orion: I guess I was hoping for a response of "ok" from him. I wanted him to accept, maybe agree with, my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Haha, credam, in this context I would actually understand it as him saying "OK, so what? Ours was tiny too, but we invited her anyway. So why weren't we invited again?" LOL


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Haha, credam, in this context I would actually understand it as him saying "OK, so what? Ours was tiny too, but we invited her anyway. So why weren't we invited again?" LOL


I hear you, though I don't know if that's where he was going with it.
I think it was like "hey, hers wasn't that much smaller than ours" (even though we aimed for more)

And he also said "your sister's wedding had a lot more people because of her husband's family."

we both agree that not as many people came as we wouldve liked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

OK, so he clearly has resentments towards his own family and his own friends for not showing up. He calls your wedding tiny because they didn't show up. Don't take it personally. He is not resentful towards you.


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## Orion (Jul 17, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> @Orion: I guess I was hoping for a response of "ok" from him. I wanted him to accept, maybe agree with, my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can understand that however look at the manner in which you went about seeking that response. You "had to have the last word" and he reacted with anger. I would wager that he verbally expresses anger quite a bit when you guys have discussions. And sometimes, you have not even reiterated a point or something and he just flies off of the handle. If so, it might be because he feels as if you treat him like you don't value his opinion or respect him. So, when he can sense that you are about to treat him in a way that he doesn't like, he launches a preemptive strike. Have you ever had to be around a person (a coworker, relative, etc) that you found argumentative or irritating? And as you are pulling up to wherever you know that person is going to be, you say to yourself, "If that person says one word to me that I don't like I am going to let them have it". That is probably what your husband is saying about you sometimes. And, I am not saying that you are a bad person. I am saying that there is something going on where you irritate him. You and he REALLY need to get to the bottom of why communication between you two seems to go badly. Good luck.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> But...I didn't "intentionally" provoke his anger.
> My intention was to be heard, not make him angry.
> Isn't he responsible for his own escalating temper, just as I'm responsible for my emotions?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You tested him to see if he would react any differently then you thought he would react. If you think about it, this was an act you could choose or not choose to do. It was done with intention. His reaction was typical of his past reactions. This goes back to are you going to control your actions or are you going to expect him to control his. Please think about this. You can waste alot of your life not getting this.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Hicks said:


> You can waste alot of your life not getting this.


Hicks, that sentence has been said before... like a signature. I wonder if there are other groups I know you from. I have seen that sentence repeated by the same guy. Did you spend any time on usenet? I wish I could remember any of my old handles.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

sunshine31 said:


> To married wife in love...first, i'm sorry that your husband has had a TBI, must be tough to deal with. I would like to dispell your theory about women though...I am NOT a talker. I don't talk much, listen to my husband speak about mundane stuff more than I speak about it myself. So when i DO actually want to talk and discuss something and the man gets annoyed and frustrated and upset because he cannot handle talking...I say he needs to get over himself! I am all for altering self behavior to an extent, but being the only one to bend back will eventually cause someone to break.


There are exceptions to every rule of course.


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