# One is the loneliest number



## jmahan84 (Oct 31, 2011)

Being strong and in charge is becoming overrated. Constantly fixing things and getting aggravated by having to build up my wife. God i just wish for once I could have someone watching MY back...instead of always watching hers. We spend so much time talking about her, and zero time talking about me...which I've come to accept. I'm unique in the sense that i LIKE TO TALK (as the guy), and she's quiet.

Problem is this, I am a very philosophical guy who enjoys a nice deep conversation. I also appreciate shallow ones (if you know what i mean). However, I cant seem to have either of these with my wife. It's always a Deer in the headlights look, or some really weird response that is either severely uneducated, or on a totally different.....thing. We SUCK at communcating (and I blame her). Enough said? (forgive my bluntness)

That was the rant. Here comes the discussion.

When we got married i knew that being the older one (in years AND experience) meant being more of a mentor to my wife, which i can accept. I've also become teacher, counselor, etc. Without going into ANY detail, this is also backed up (ish) by Bible scripture (which may or may not be worthless). I'll admit, as honestly and inevitably arrogantly, that I'm rather intelligent (I may have just lost most of you)...but perhaps not! My acceptance of this "Peer-divide" I'll call it prior to marriage, has left me in a place where i literally feel like I'm married to a child. I have to remind her to look both ways before crossing the road(extreme metaphor, but valid feeling). I am left with a lack of confidence in my ability to let her run free with a project, and am COMPLETELY LONELY(main issue). 

She quit her birth control 3 months ago when we agreed to try to get pregnant. Sometimes our problems seem small and I'm ok with making a baby, other times like now...not so much. My gut terrifies me...it tells me "this will never truly get better, she'll always be your kid in many ways".

Is it ok to look at your wife this way? She's 25 I'm 27, so age-wise we're perfect, but she's as experienced as a 14 year old (i feel). I sure feel less excited about sex with this "kid" viewpoint, than a more healthy "peer" viewpoint. I don't go to her for advice, we don't interact as peers...sex is a chore...and she's good looking! I'm bored, AND lonely! Chris Rock had it wrong...


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

In my opinion, intellectual capacity is not static. It can be dynamic, based upon the drive to improve, and grow in leaps and bounds under the right conditions.

I've been a supervisor for quite a few years. What amazes me is to see people like your wife find new incentives to grow, and empower themselves to become brilliant. In my case, I was a scared little kid out of college. My boss asked me if I would ever want to move into management, and I said no. But this guy didn't see me as someone beneath him. He saw me as a peer, and treated me this way even though my background was incredibly limited. I actually became his boss for a short while.

It could be that your wife didn't have a childhood in an environment that fostered intellectual growth. While I read of philosophers in high school, my wife read little. She admired my knowledge. Secretly, she wanted to be more knowledgeable. I think that it could've been easy to see her as a child, and honestly, I did at times, but this woman is much smarter than me in many ways. In a crowd, she is the one who tells me when I'm putting people to sleep with the seemingly endless discourses. We work together as a partnership.

I'd really encourage you to try to take the mindset of treating her as an equal, despite her current state. Take her to the places where you want to go, like museums, and ask her opinion. More importantly, reinforce those areas where she is smarter, and more practical. For my wife, the list turned out to be quite large. I learned that I was one of her biggest stumbling blocks that prevented her from growing when she sensed disappointment from me. That's one thing that I wish I could change about the first year of our marriage.


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## joshbjoshb (Jul 11, 2011)

This is the perfect thread for me to read right now.

I so know what you are feeling because I have just the same feelings like you. And you know what, when dating she did seem to enjoy some type of intellectual conversations but now it's all things of the past.

Except I have 2 children with her already which I love dearly. I have come to accept that this is what my life is about, except I want her to be emotionally. Is yours? Is she it touch with her feelings? Is she a happy person?

If yes I say screw the intellect, as long as she will be a loving, understanding partner and will be a great mom for your kid.

My problem is that my wife is NOT. So I feel sometimes like she is a little kid in more than the intellectual aspect, which is very hard.

Read some other of my posts to see what I am going through... good luck, I don't think you should drop her only because she is not the smartest and a wife doesn't have to be only a conversation partner - but she needs to be a partner in many other levels.


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## dddivorceee (Oct 30, 2011)

Well... Are you sure that having kids is a good idea, chum? 

I am in my forties, am a PhD, in philosophy as it happens, and was married to a woman who was intellectually radically, shall we say, different than myself. When we met she found my intellectualism attractive, and appeared to have aspirations in that direction. She was also younger, but rather younger than your wife re. you. (nearly a decade). In the 8 years we spent together I discovered two things: 

1. Her intellectual aspirations were more window-shopping than actual. By the middle of our relationship our conversation had dried to virtually nothing (of consequence). She expressed intimidation and discomfort about my overt intellectualism, especially as I became interested in the history of religions, and my nightly reading would be the likes of the Ugaritic texts and the early history of the Abrahamic cults, er, religions. She was not religious, per se, but I think she had a vague relationship with Xtianity in the kind of distantly comforting sense. Her own reading, punctuated occasionally by semi-okay popular type novels, was basically tabloid crap of the worst "celeb" variety. Her television viewing was the same. She hated documentaries and anything which I found remotely satisfying. By the last 2 years of our relationship, I found myself hearing "white noise" much of the time she spoke to me, which I found sad, and no doubt she experienced the same. I lived through some ASTOUNDINGLY stupid decisions she made, especially financially, and this put huge strain on our relationship, as I just could not in good conscience allow her to walk into such bad choices unopposed. The final bad choice she made was to have an affair with a serial philanderer and married deadbeat, who had parasitised his own wife for 25 years, and was looking for the next host. I went loud about the affair, then left them to it. I think, predictably, it is over now as well. 

2. I am (and all who know me tell me this frequently) a very intellingent person. Sometimes this is actually a burden. I am NOT an intellectual snob, however, and have made several choices to be with women who are very different in that way in the past. Due to this pretty long experience, I have come to realise that intellectual compatibility is FAR more important than sexual. Indeed it tends to generate the latter, in the long term, as there is nothing sexier (to me) than a seriously smart lady! Going forward, I will not accept a relationship without some parity on this level. This respects both myself, and the woman I am with. I have deep and enduring emotionally significant relationships with a couple of girls I dated many years ago. Entirely platonic now, but they make me realise how important intellectual parity is- both of them are highly intelligent, knowledgeable, and curious women. One of them I dated back when you were 5 years old. I haven't seen her in 20 years, but over the internet and phone we have an enduring connection. 

If you are in serious doubt, put off having kids. You are still very young, as is she- you both have time to find other people and have happy lives and families. I would SERIOUSLY question the wisdom of starting a family in your situation!!!


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## Triumph (Oct 8, 2011)

jmahan84, I love your rant, and just want you to know that your not alone with the whole conversation thing. Within my small world I have noticed that there are two types of people. Those that enjoy trivial conversation. ie. drama, gossip. And those that enjoy the deeper conversations, not that Im trying to put down people who enjoy gossip. To each their own, its just not my thing.

My wife is early twneties, and Im late twenties. I never thought that a 5-year-gap would have such a huge impact on the conversations we are capable of having, but it does. From time to time I feel like I have to treat her like a child because she can be a little to hasty with certain things... Like cutting your finger open with a very dull pumpkin carving "knife". Blood everywhere, and all I could say was, "Why would you intentionally cut TOWARDS your finger?"

All I can tell you is to have faith. When I was five years younger I was also five years more immature than I am now.

Also, dont have kids. If you are unsatisfied with some/all of your wifes behaviour I assure it it wont get better if you add kids to the equation.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

jmahan84 said:


> Is it ok to look at your wife this way?


Yeah, the problem here is that your expecting (way) too much of something she doesn't have. I'm completely certain that she has other offsetting excellent characteristics in abundance. Find these and benefit from them and you will feel a lot better


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## jmahan84 (Oct 31, 2011)

I really enjoyed all of the responses from everyone. 

To Halien: I hope you're right about intelligence being dynamic and not static, because genetically I'd say that there is a "fixed" amount of intellectual potential. I know my wife is a sweetheart with great intentions, but for a while now i've been dealing with the "deer in the headlights" type of one way conversations, and have since quit talking to her. I find myself trying to shorten phone conversations as much as possible, and beyond daily logistics on the how and what, we don't talk. It's been just me talking for too long, and whenever she tries to talk to me, which is extremely rare its obvious she is "trying" if you know what i mean. Which i obviously appreciate, but it makes for some very dull...brief... conversation.

To: JoshbJoshb, I know a little about what you're talking about in the way of immaturity, if I can be presumptuous about paraphrasing your comments on emotions and behavior. I personally dont have any kids, so I feel like I have more options, so I feel for you in that regard. I'm glad you have a good relationship with your kids, because you at least have enough self-respect to not forget what your responsibilities are in that regard. Thanks for letting me feel like I'm not alone feeling like this. I'll look over your other posts.

To: Dddivorceee: I apprecaited both of your main points, as well as your bottom line. I agree, putting off kids is probably the smartest move at this point, which I am going to have to discuss with my wife here soon...but we will continue to work on things. I couldn't agree with you more about intellect being a burden. It's rare to meet someone you can relate to, which is also part of my arrogance. Someone once called it "the arrogance of excellence". Arrogance that's justified i guess is what I'm saying, while I'm sure you and I both can agree that it would be nice to maintain some level of "down to earth-ness"...but I get you. And as far as issues like religion, this is a huge deal i think...because it defines just about every reason you do the things you do. Important thing to agree about, which luckily my wife and I both were raised christian, but currently searching agnostics. Thanks for your post.

To Triumph: Awesome! Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone. I totally agree with your assessment of people, but I'll submit that there's a third person (which I only met when I met my wife). The person who has no idea how to talk whatsoever! I find this odd for two reasons. One she's a female (forgive the sexism, but I think its valid. Women communicate naturally). Secondly, she talks to her girlfriends (about shallow stuff at least). Based on this i think she should at least understand the mechanics of conversation (ie: listening, feedback. Big picture, little picture stuff). But she doesn't. My grandmother told me the secret to intimacy is "Talk, Talk, Talk". I get what she meant, always try to stay connected. I agree with what you said about have faith. I married my wife due to my conviction about her heart. I overlooked flaws (which I'm sure she did too), because I knew that deep down she's incredible. So, now I'm in the "Improvement grind", and being a military man myself, I know the fastest way to self improvement. It's turning up the heat, and getting practice doing what you do EVERY day. I'm afraid however that she resents me for being the source of that "heat" as it were. She knows I'm a good conversationalist, and intelligent. She's just tired of being on the one that needs fixing all the time. And God knows i try to not make her feel that way, but sometimes I cant help but give her subtle advice about how to make her life easier, and to be better. Her self-esteem is suffering, and I may be the cause in some ways. So, I'll admit my guilt in that regard. I can't help seeing what she does that makes her life hard, and I'm a "problem solver", always have been. I even tried to fix my parents broken marriage at 9 years old. I guess its in-grained. Just some more insight into the "why" of my situation. Thanks for your feedback. Great advice!

To Ten Year Hubby: Short and sweet! I'd say your assessment is fair as well. I agree, many people expect WAY to much of their partners. I've already confessed that if all my wife and I have is a respectful, loving relationship, and a safe home for our future children, thats more than most people had (more than i had), and that should be enough. So, I couldn't agree more. And you're right she has many other qualities that far exceed my expectations. My only problem is that our current problem is a biggie. Every good relationship needs conversation. And I don't know how to help her learn, other than to actually talk. She usually finds herself kinda dumbfounded or unable to follow my deep trains of thought. I tend to respect people who are able to "keep up" as it were, and blow of people who cannot. I'll admit, arrogant, and i try not to openly blow them off to their face, but I just write them off as people I will really crack open a beer with and get deep. Overall, I totally agree with you. Thank you for the advice. Although I really do feel like if we don't learn to talk, we'll both continue to grow, just further apart but under the same roof. Again, thanks for the advice.

Everyone, feel free to keep it coming if you've got it to bring.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Your grammar, syntax, punctuation and spelling errors speak of your arrogance rather than your intelligence. You are a legend in your own mind.
Those who are truly intelligent don't make others feel less than and certainly don't talk about how smart they are.

Signed,
The wife of a Mensa member


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

jmahan84 said:


> She quit her birth control 3 months ago when we agreed to try to get pregnant. Sometimes our problems seem small and I'm ok with making a baby, other times like now...not so much. My gut terrifies me...it tells me "this will never truly get better, she'll always be your kid in many ways".
> 
> Is it ok to look at your wife this way? She's 25 I'm 27, so age-wise we're perfect, but she's as experienced as a 14 year old (i feel). I sure feel less excited about sex with this "kid" viewpoint, than a more healthy "peer" viewpoint. I don't go to her for advice, we don't interact as peers...sex is a chore...and she's good looking! I'm bored, AND lonely! Chris Rock had it wrong...


Holy crap!  Please don't have a kid! No child deserves to be brought into this type of environment. It sounds like you have very little desire to have a child and you don't seem to have much admiration or respect for your wife. 

Work your issues out BEFORE you have kids because it'll just make things worse when you have them. I'd hate to think of what kind of father you'd be.


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## Trumpet (Nov 2, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Your grammar, syntax, punctuation and spelling errors speak of your arrogance rather than your intelligence. You are a legend in your own mind.
> Those who are truly intelligent don't make others feel less than and certainly don't talk about how smart they are.
> 
> Signed,
> The wife of a Mensa member


Not to be a complete jerk, but as a rebuttal: I personally know two Fields medalists who can't spell their way out of a paper bag. Also, I'm pretty sure there have been quite a few Nobel laureates in literature who made their editors truly earn their paychecks.

You should read some of Fitzgerald's hand written letters to Zelda sometime if you're up for a mix of biographical discovery, endearment, and humor at the expense of the man's spelling aptitude.

However, I do agree that one should be mindful of who they may offend via embracing arrogance so openly ... we should also be mindful of who we may offend with disparaging remarks rather than constructive advice.


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## jmahan84 (Oct 31, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Your grammar, syntax, punctuation and spelling errors speak of your arrogance rather than your intelligence. You are a legend in your own mind.
> Those who are truly intelligent don't make others feel less than and certainly don't talk about how smart they are.
> 
> Signed,
> The wife of a Mensa member


Ya I saw a few spelling and grammer errors, should've proofread...not bad i think for not proofreading at all! 

Yes I'm arrogant, I mentioned that. But I AM pretty awesome. 
But I also have good taste, and I picked an incredible person for a wife, we're just having issues, and forums like this are safe places, so I can vent a little. I did take some emotional freedoms. I'll keep in mind you can't hear the 'tone' as it were of my text. You're not the first person to be put off by my frankness. Thanks for responding.


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## jmahan84 (Oct 31, 2011)

Trumpet said:


> Not to be a complete jerk, but as a rebuttal: I personally know two Fields medalists who can't spell their way out of a paper bag. Also, I'm pretty sure there have been quite a few Nobel laureates in literature who made their editors truly earn their paychecks.
> 
> You should read some of Fitzgerald's hand written letters to Zelda sometime if you're up for a mix of biographical discovery, endearment, and humor at the expense of the man's spelling aptitude.
> 
> However, I do agree that one should be mindful of who they may offend via embracing arrogance so openly ... we should also be mindful of who we may offend with disparaging remarks rather than constructive advice.


Thanks Trumpet  I thoroughly enjoyed you're response, gave me quite a laugh...and I agree, I never claimed my arrogance wasn't a double edged sword. Couldn't agree more. I'm just primarily concerned with honesty; with myself as well as others. You're very wise! (and its ok to be a jerk sometimes...sometimes situations demand a jerk. Tit for tat in this case.) 

By the way, I'm gonna go look at some of those letters to Zelda right now...if i can find them.


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## jmahan84 (Oct 31, 2011)

Freak On a Leash said:


> Holy crap!  Please don't have a kid! No child deserves to be brought into this type of environment. It sounds like you have very little desire to have a child and you don't seem to have much admiration or respect for your wife.
> 
> Work your issues out BEFORE you have kids because it'll just make things worse when you have them. I'd hate to think of what kind of father you'd be.


Ya, i hear you man. It's not good timing considering the circumstances. We're gonna hold off until we make some progress. I wasn't raised in the best home, and I refuse to bring a child into another bad situation. I'm with you.

Only thing is, I may be reading a little too much into your last sentence. I'm sure you can imagine where I'm going with this. There are "bad situations" at home where both parents are good to their kids, its just bad. For the record, I am very confident I will make a great father someday! And you're right, it starts today by making the good decision to wait until its safe for my children to arrive.

Thanks for responding.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Well, to be honest, I wasn't just trying to say that her intelligence was dynamic. At some point in the relationship, it is entirely possible that you looked at her with almost nothing but fondness, and I was suggesting that if you look at the right things, you might find this again.

From an outside view looking in, keep in mind that a reader of the post can bring in a completely different perspective, based upon our own experiences. Just to point out a contrasting POV, based upon my SIL's marriage to a husband with an exceptional background, I'll only offer what some of us observed:

I'd bet that your wife was attracted to you because of your intellect and self-confidence. She admired you. Now what kind of man is not attracted to a woman who admires us? But after a while, as it inevetably does, she sees the skid marks in the underwear when she does the laundry, or the less remarkable personality traits, and realizes that you are a normal man in many ways. It happens to us all. We all hold traits that drive our partners crazy at times. Maybe she didn't find the personality quite as dazzling, and her admiration wanes. Heaven forbid she realize that she is dissapointing you in your judgements of her intellect. To be in an atmosphere where you are judged is sometimes even enough to hurt the relationship.

Somewhere beneath the daily dialogue of the relationship, its still likely that this woman admires your intellect. But it is but one segment of your individuality. Through the entire post, you didn't really focus on things that you initially admired about her. I doubt that it was just her admiration for your intellect that led you into a relationship. Beneath the day to day, is this reason gone? Can it be revived? Or do the negatives outweigh it?


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## jmahan84 (Oct 31, 2011)

Halien said:


> Through the entire post, you didn't really focus on things that you initially admired about her. I doubt that it was just her admiration for your intellect that led you into a relationship. Beneath the day to day, is this reason gone? Can it be revived? Or do the negatives outweigh it?


I'm sorry, i don't mean to make her sound as bad as I probably did. She still is great in all her original ways, i just never expected our conversational abilities to hurt me as much as it does. I guess i need it more than i thought. She's a wonderful do-er. I can mention anything in passing, one time, and she listens and gets it done nearly 100% of the time, and is very thoughtful. She's always buying things and having parties for me on special occassions. She's also very affectionate, which was a big seller for me! My main issue really is just the social intimacy.

For example, last night on the phone (we've been separated for military training for about 3 months, but we will be together again today! Yay!), we were talking about stuff (specifically conversational skills), and I would talk for like 3-4 minutes about something related to communication, and when i finished it was obvious i was done talking. I expected some sort of "Hmm", or "Ok" response. But I got pure silence for what i counted 15 seconds. Awkward? I was like, "Hello?". And she was like "Hang on! I'm thinking!" I was like...."Oooookaaayyy...." I wasn't wanting some sort of rocket science response from her, just an acknowledgement that she heard me. I literally had to explain to her that when someone talks to you, its a good gesture to nod your head or make acknowledgement noises when they talk/finish talking. It at least makes them feel like you were listening, instead of sleeping, watching tv or something other than listening...which is disrespectful in my book.

Make sense? I'm having to explain to my wife the mechanics of "talk". How odd is that? I mean, its ok...everyone has there flaws including me (I can be a brute with my honesty, and I'm a problem fixer so sometimes i try too hard to fix things instead of being patient). So, we are currently reading the book "Just Listen" by Mark Goulston...and I still think it may be too advanced for our current situation. So I'm looking for a better book. I also wish there was some sort of "communication workshop" or something we could do together. For now I'm playing the role of me AND the counselor, by talking etc, and then pausing interrupting and explaining whats going on, like..."i now feel like you're not listening because I'm not getting any feedback", or..."i can see you don't understand what I'm saying but you're not interrupting me and asking clarifying questions to gain understanding before moving on." So, its just a little tough...and I'm not sure I'm the best teacher...because she doesn't seem to be learning, and I know feels a lot of pressure since this instruction is coming from her husband.

Any advice for helping someone learn to be a good conversationalist?

To answer you're question the good absolutely outweighs the bad, and we can have a satisfactory marriage as is, but i want it to be GREAT! =)


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Same dynamic as dddivorce . I am reasonably bright. My XW was younger and had no intellectual curiosity. She is, however, extremely beautiful, physically.
I was never so lonely in my life. We married due to her "accidental "pregnancy and I got three great kids from the deal.
When the kids got to be about 6 or 7, they overtook her, intellectually and it was less lonely, as I had someone to talk to about ideas etc vs Brad Pitt and Angelina's situation or some mean gossip.
Finally, thankfully, she got so abusive and eventually cheated with two guys , that I had an out.
Ever read "Light in the Piazza"? It is a fantasy. 
I think dumb is not all that bad, although it leaves you lonely. But, dumb, mean, selfish and abusive is a bad mix.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

jmahan84 said:


> I'm sorry, i don't mean to make her sound as bad as I probably did.
> 
> Any advice for helping someone learn to be a good conversationalist?
> 
> To answer you're question the good absolutely outweighs the bad, and we can have a satisfactory marriage as is, but i want it to be GREAT! =)


I know people come here with issues in the marriage, so I wasn't really suggesting that you made her sound bad. Just wondered what it was that drew you to her. Sometimes, by reinforcing the good, its easier for the other person to accept the bad, that's all.

Personally, I'd recommend that the two of you read "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in conversation" by Deborah Tannen. It was a NYT bestseller. Writing fiction is a hobby for me, and I think its critical to understand that women have different expectations and methods for communication than men. Most of us know this, but we men tend to be fixed on the logical means of communication. We might consider a woman to be a poor communicator, while she is often just too distracted by the crossed signals we convey, based on the style that she is more comfortable with. And she struggles with the things we don't convey when we speak. This book might help the two of you understand what's breaking down, in my opinion. It really, really sounds like she is focusing more on your expectations of communication than in just participating.

In the past, my wife will often get intimidated if she doesn't know what to say when I bring up a subject, like how incredibly impossible something is in a sci-fi movie that we are watching. Instead of replying that maybe they know how to fold space like a sine wave, or something, I'd be okay if she gave me her patented grin and tell me, "You're such a dweeb!" But instead, she'd clamp down and say nothing. We're making some progress now.

Maybe the book can help you guys get into a discussion about any communication breakdowns that may be happening, and make her comfortable with discussing alternative ways to think about conversation.


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## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

Halien said:


> I know people come here with issues in the marriage, so I wasn't really suggesting that you made her sound bad. Just wondered what it was that drew you to her. Sometimes, by reinforcing the good, its easier for the other person to accept the bad, that's all.
> 
> Personally, I'd recommend that the two of you read "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in conversation" by Deborah Tannen. It was a NYT bestseller.
> 
> ...





> She's always buying things and having parties for me on special occasions. She's also very affectionate, which was a big seller for me!


Good problem to have if you ask me! :smthumbup: Looking at her side of things for just a moment, maybe she feels drained and overloaded from your conversations. You married her, correct? How soon did you realize this was an issue before you married her? Her being an affectionate gift-giver is her way of communication it seems, not intellectual curiosity. I'm not claiming I am, or was, the smartest man to ever live, or that every day with me was a picnic at the beach, but it has been an issue for me (even if I didn't...talk about it) and it should certainly should be considered if you have every reason to believe it will weigh on your relationship down the road.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I agree, we have to look within to see why we got into this. For me, my own ego and insecurities made me go for the looks alone. My own damn fault.


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