# Can she ever trust me again?



## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

I am a WS who has been visiting this website for a few weeks now as has my BS Stargazer(SG). Our D'Day was last April and since then I have put SG through the hell of trickle truthing, lying to protect myself and for the first few weeks after D day maintained phone contact with the AP. The affair lasted two and a half years and prior to that I was close freinds with the AP for around 6 months. A major betrayal.

I had the affair for selfish reasons, i was flattered, it was an ego trip, i kidded myself that the AP and me were 'soul mates' and was excited that someone seemed to need me so much, the sex was exciting. I maximised all the good things about the AP and minimised all the negatives.

In short I was selfish, cruel and manipulative towards a woman who had done nothing to deserve it and all for the sake of a fantasy. 

SG has been amazing and has worked so hard to keep us together despite my continued trickle truthing and evasion. I know this sounds self pittying and I guess it is. Now I find it hard to believe that I could have been so totally cruel and self centred and it is hard to realize that about yourself.

The good news is that there are no more lies, secrets or deception. I have no desire to see the AP ever again despite occassional attempts by her to contact me and let me know she is still available. I want complete R with SG more than anything and to spend the rest of our lives together. We are looking at our marriage prior to the A and working on addressing the issues that had made the marriage in many ways a sham.

I know that SG must look at me and wonder who i am and if I am going to smash her world apart again. I have lied so many times before, how can she ever believe me again? 

If the roles were reversed I don't think I could ever trust again and it would eat me up. SG is amazing to have stayed with me despite all i've done. 

My question, I guess, is what can I do to reassure her that I am totally committed to her and our relationship together? In your experiences what are the most important things to do?

Sorry for the rambling post, delighted to hear from anyone out there


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi,

- never tell your spouse that she must "move on" or imply it "is about time we stopped talking about it."

- be 100% open about everything. Go overboard letting her know where you are. Even if you are only going to be 5 minutes late, let her know why and where you are.

- keep telling her you love her.

- keep telling you are sorry and regret what you did 

- understand that it isn't "a mistake". It was hundreds of decisions, each one a betrayal. That isn't "a mistake".

- tell her you are glad she is with you and that you enjoy being with her. You can't do this enough.

- tell her how good sex is with her, but don't patronise her by making out sex with the AP was no good. Obviously, don't mention that if possible. Tell her how much you enjoy it when you touch her/she touches you.

Be honest about everything. Even a small oversight (not even a lie) can crush the betrayed spouse for days.

- accept that you can never be trusted. Ideally never give your wife a reason to have to trust you. Provide evidence without asking and without rancour.

Good luck. I really hope you guys make it.

I admire you for posting here. It can be a hostile place for those that have strayed.


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## ody360 (Feb 1, 2013)

accept, show remorse lots of it. Be open like a book, and do everything you can and prove to her. My wife atm is trying but there are times i feel like she falls short of my expectations. Some days she does good then somedays i almost wonder if she relaxes. 

Good luck man cause it is going to be real hard to ever believe you again. There may honestly be a little suspicion for the rest of your life. But i don't know i'm only 2 months in to my D-day and probably 3 weeks into actually real R and not false R. 

I'm sure some of the vets who have gone through this longer then me could answer that, i just figure id give my 2 cents since this is still totally fresh for me and am in the process of trying to for give my WS


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Lister said:


> I had the affair for selfish reasons, i was flattered, it was an *ego* trip...
> 
> *If the roles were reversed I don't think I could ever trust again and it would eat me up*. SG is amazing to have stayed with me despite all i've done.
> 
> My question, I guess, is what can I do to reassure her that I am totally committed to her and our relationship together?


IMHO, I bolded the word ego because you allowed your ego to be in control of your _reason_. It should be the other way around. YOU should be in control of your ego. It's a constant daily battle for many people, but until you get it under your control, you will probably do this again...

The next thing I bolded was an entire sentence. It's ironic that you seem to want more _from_ your wife than you'd be willing to give _TO_ your wife, had the roles been reversed. This tells me that our ego is still 'in charge', only it's in charge by way of _arrogance_. 

Your wife doesn't "owe" you her trust, no matter how many 'nice things' you do for her...no matter how many times you tell her you love her...no matter how often you call her and tell her you'll be 5 minutes late. 

Think about how YOU would feel and how YOU would react if she did this to you. Don't just tell yourself that you'd be "upset". Try to visualize what you would do, how you would do it, what you would say and how you would say it. And then understand that you can expect NO MORE from your wife. If you would divorce her, then you can not blame your wife if she divorces you. If you would scream at her and call her names, then again...you can not expect any LESS from her. 

I find it both ironic and pitiful that the WS THINKS about this stuff AFTER the they have already cheated (and not BEFORE, when it would might make a difference) PLUS, that they already KNOW how they would feel/react, yet they expect MORE from the BS. 

Good luck.

Vega


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

If the OW tries to contact you again see a lawyer and have him send her a warning that any further attempt to make contact with you or yours will be met with a court order and a filing of stalking. Let your wife know that you are doing this. 

otherwise I think Chris Ody, and Vega have it spot on.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm glad to see this thread, but I feel a little strange.

I've only known about TAM for around a month, it has been enlightening. It helped me find strength. I see this as an opportunity. Not quite sure if or what else I can say at this point.

.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

StarGazer101 said:


> I'm glad to see this thread, but I feel a little strange.
> 
> I've only known about TAM for around a month, it has been enlightening. It helped me find strength. I see this as an opportunity. Not quite sure if or what else I can say at this point.
> 
> .


SG did you expose the OW to her husband? Her work? her Family?

Do you have any issue with what Lister wrote? He says you know it all now. Is that your sense of things? Was it your sense that you knew all when you were being TT'ed? 

Do you have children - and if so, how has it affected them? Are you staying only for the children?


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> SG did you expose the OW to her husband? Her work? her Family?
> 
> Do you have any issue with what Lister wrote? He says you know it all now. Is that your sense of things? Was it your sense that you knew all when you were being TT'ed?
> 
> Do you have children - and if so, how has it affected them? Are you staying only for the children?


I didn't know about exposure when I caught him. TBH I wasn't capable of thinking of anything much for the first few months.... and I felt so humiliated that I really didn't want to do anything that would make me look anymore foolish than I already felt. The AP is single but is politically active (she was campaigning to become an MSP in the midst of the A) I now wish I had known about doing this .....he was her third AP, and apart from the obvious feeling that a little karma for her would be nice, I do think the public out to be able to count on the integrity of politicians.

Do I think I know it all? I know as much as I dug for - nothing was volunteered except little nuggets offered to pacify me when I found another damning piece of "evidence". I think I know everything I need to now, and I don't want to know about the sex - I've got the gist. During this time I wanted to believe him every time he told me I "really know it all this time" but I didn't give up digging. Now I'm done with that intensity of investigation and I'm clear .......ONE MORE LIE and I'm done. 

I would like to attempt to R. I have a lot of doubts though ....
Although it's been nearly 10 months I've only finally known how long the EA/PA actually lasted for about 5 weeks. So I think we are just emerging from a pre-R stage.

We have made progress in some areas and I have seen a significant difference in his willingness to even talk at all, and now we have started working through HNHN which has been very enlightening and we have a lot of work to do. There have been days where it has been wonderful and many others that haven't.

We have 2 children 22 and 26 this year. They were devastated. They, along with me, and everyone else, thought he was special - the very last man that would do something like this. Seeing my big beautiful son cry was horrible. 

I stayed because I love him .....and I didn't know the truth. It has been a slow painful journey to get here - I honestly don't know if I'd have been so willing to try if I had known what it would be like. I have to believe it has been worth something so I'm willing but wary.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Well SG, if he is truly remorseful then he will absolutely appreciate the gem he married. He got the better deal in the marriage by far. 

It's up to him now to prove to you that he's worthy of the chance you've given him. 

Take your time in this reconciliation. Don't let setbacks that would have been considered minor in your good married days (pre-affair) explode into major ones today, but don't be afraid to speak out when needed. 



> They, along with me, and everyone else, thought he was special - the very last man that would do something like this. Seeing my big beautiful son cry was horrible.


That's the problem with idolizing anyone. The higher the pedestal the farther the fall and the greater the devastation. You know better now. Give it a chance since his first post seems sincere enough. Your history, though tarnished, is still your history. 

Turn the page on that chapter of your lives. Prepare for a few cloudy chapters with an eye for brighter chapters. It is in your power to close the book when you wish.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

I have several I want to address here:

WOM, you always have such beautiful, wise posts. Lister and SG, listen to this man when he posts. He's good. 

SG, I've gotten to "know" you a bit from the Rec thread. I'm so sorry you're here. As a fWS myself, I find I have a need to apologize to all BSs. I've seen the pain infidelity brings firsthand, and my heart just goes out to those who have been betrayed. R is hard, no question. Tomorrow marks 8 months since our second and final DDay. It's been a difficult road for us both, but there have been some good times too. If the love is there, if Lister is sincere and does the work, then I think healing from this is possible. This forum is amazingly helpful, but keep in mind that it is called "Coping With Infidelity." The majority of couples stay married after infidelity. That doesn't seem to be the case on TAM, which could mean that those that are happy after dealing with the A don't need a forum like this. Don't be overly discouraged about what you read on here; it's not a true representation of couples in R. That does not mean it doesn't have value -finding TAM has been one of the best things DD and I have done -but just keep that point in mind when you are trying to R. 

Finally, to Lister, I've posted a similar thread. Ever since my husband sent me the link to the post he made here, I have been asking what I can do to help him, how I can get us through this hell I've made. There are no easy answers. Ok, there are some: honesty, transparency, remorse, giving SG whatever she needs from you in that moment. But sadly there is no quick fix, no eraser to take away the pain we've caused. 

Honestly, I think the only thing we have -if our spouses will give it to us -is time. I think it is only with time that we can show them that we want only them, that we can be trustworthy, that we have worked through our selfishness, that we are more sorry than we can ever express, and that we are the same person they married and yet changed in many ways as well. 

The 2 most helpful things for me personally have been IC and this forum. If you're not in IC, start calling therapists tomorrow. Look deep in yourself to see how you became a person who could betray your wife and children. It's hard and ugly, but you have to figure it out to convince YOURSELF that you won't ever do this again. I think we have to convince ourselves before we can begin to try to convince our spouses. 

And keep posting. Put yourself out there. As a WS, you will get some flames, but take them. When you feel yourself getting defensive, ask yourself why. For me, when I could feel a reaction starting, many times it was because the post touched a little close to home for me and it made me uncomfortable. But we have to face the ugliness that we became and what we did. Only then can we learn and move beyond it. 

Best of luck to you and SG both.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So, Lister, you were found out by your W, no? You didn't have an epiphany after 2.5 years of cheating. And when you were found out, you decided you want your W? Not your AP? Why? Was she suddenly irresistible to you? What is it about getting busted that made you want your W again? (And please don't tell me that you never stopped wanting your W....)

This for me is a major part of the trust issue. How can SG trust your feelings now? It's not just all the lying for so long while you're in the A; it's not just the pain of the trickling of truth afterwards; it's also not being able to believe you when you express what you say are your heartfelt feelings now.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can she ever trust me again?*



alte Dame said:


> So, Lister, you were found out by your W, no? You didn't have an epiphany after 2.5 years of cheating. And when you were found out, you decided you want your W? Not your AP? Why? Was she suddenly irresistible to you? What is it about getting busted that made you want your W again? (And please don't tell me that you never stopped wanting your W....)
> 
> This for me is a major part of the trust issue. How can SG trust your feelings now? It's not just all the lying for so long while you're in the A; it's not just the pain of the trickling of truth afterwards; it's also not being able to believe you when you express what you say are your heartfelt feelings now.


This is exactly how I feel but I have not been able to express with such eloquence.


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

i'm confused.....

you say:



> I've only finally known how long the *EA/PA actually lasted for about 5 weeks*.


he says: 



> *The affair lasted two and a half years* and prior to that I was close freinds with the AP for around 6 months.


apparently you don't have the whole story.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

cledus_snow said:


> i'm confused.....
> you say:
> he says:
> apparently you don't have the whole story.


I shouldn't reply on SG and Listers behalf, I know, but I read it as "I have only known for 5 weeks how long the affair really lasted"


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Lister, you could show you are no longer protecting the AP by exposing her as the willful home wrecker she is.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> Hi,
> 
> - never tell your spouse that she must "move on" or imply it "is about time we stopped talking about it."
> 
> ...


Thanks Chris, very useful advice though of course it's tough to know that i can never be trusted again although what else can i expect. Not bothered by any hostility, entirely deserved and from it can come learning hopefully, and realisation of the pain i've caused.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks Ody, appreciate your thoughts. Good luck to you both.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Vega said:


> IMHO, I bolded the word ego because you allowed your ego to be in control of your _reason_. It should be the other way around. YOU should be in control of your ego. It's a constant daily battle for many people, but until you get it under your control, you will probably do this again...
> 
> The next thing I bolded was an entire sentence. It's ironic that you seem to want more _from_ your wife than you'd be willing to give _TO_ your wife, had the roles been reversed. This tells me that our ego is still 'in charge', only it's in charge by way of _arrogance_.
> 
> ...


Hi Vega, good points, well made.

I wish every day that I had never had the affair and had thought about the consequences properly. In all honesty I purposely kept from thinking about the cruelty of what i was doing - stupid stupid stupid.

Ego is completely under control now, struggle to find it at all. I have tried very hard to visualise what she is going through and force myself to consider how I would respond if the roles were reversed. I absolutely don't expect anything from her as i know she owes me nothing. I just don't know if i could do what she is doing or not, i suspect it is one of those situations you cannot 'simulate' in your mind. Only when it happens will you know how you will respond.

Appreciate your response to me.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> If the OW tries to contact you again see a lawyer and have him send her a warning that any further attempt to make contact with you or yours will be met with a court order and a filing of stalking. Let your wife know that you are doing this.
> 
> otherwise I think Chris Ody, and Vega have it spot on.


Thanks WOM, Our MC suggested that legal action might be a response. When the AP texted me at New Year I replied to that effect. She replied i would be laughed out of court because of how i'd treated her. Told her that was irrelevant, that now i was with SG and wanted no further contact. Shared this with SG although she wasn't happy with some of my wording in the text. Had no contact since and my feeling is that the best way to respond to any future contact, should it come, is to ignore it totally and not respond. I think that when she contacts me she is looking for any response, even threats of legal action.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

StarGazer101 said:


> I didn't know about exposure when I caught him. TBH I wasn't capable of thinking of anything much for the first few months.... and I felt so humiliated that I really didn't want to do anything that would make me look anymore foolish than I already felt. The AP is single but is politically active (she was campaigning to become an MSP in the midst of the A) I now wish I had known about doing this .....he was her third AP, and apart from the obvious feeling that a little karma for her would be nice, I do think the public out to be able to count on the integrity of politicians.
> 
> Do I think I know it all? I know as much as I dug for - nothing was volunteered except little nuggets offered to pacify me when I found another damning piece of "evidence". I think I know everything I need to now, and I don't want to know about the sex - I've got the gist. During this time I wanted to believe him every time he told me I "really know it all this time" but I didn't give up digging. Now I'm done with that intensity of investigation and I'm clear .......ONE MORE LIE and I'm done.
> 
> ...


I love you very much SG. xx


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't have anything nice to say to you. I think you are still being deceptive. A person cannot indulge themselves for 3 years and then just decide to suddenly acquire character and selflessness. I think you are the same person that had all of the ego stroking for 3 urs. The affair was fior yiur fun and this R is for you not your wife. 

If you cared about her, you would not have hurt her for 3 whole years. I really hope she thinks about what you really are and gets rid of you. I think you will cheat again under the right circumstances after this all blows over. 

Have you weighed the financial hit that divorce would bring? You don't want to give up the services of your wife? Is this what is driving this sudden show of love? You mean you had fun for 3 years and now you are coming in from the cold to the love and warmth of the family. Wish I had your life. All of that fun then on to the back up for a rest. 

I can't help you obviously. I'd like to help because I think SG should kick your butt to the curb. You don't diserve to enjoy her loyalty and love. You don't diserve a faithful loving wife in my opinion. You deceived and lied and were cruel afterwards. This went on for 3 years. What happened to all of your empathy for your wife all of those years? 

I think this is for your convenience. You probably got bored with the OW. I think when the next chance for a good time, you will indulge yourself again. I hope she wises up and gets rid of you before hurt her again. A short affair and then coming to your senses is one thing but 3 years is the sign of a character disorder. You still have it and you will still act in your own interest. 

That's how I feel. I don't feel any need to help you. You have gotten more than you diserve already. You need to feel the evil of what you did not help to cash in on the kindness and loyalty of a good woman. I don't think she should trust you and I don't think she should let you back into her life. She should cut her loses and start with a man untainted by cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

Lister said:


> Hi Vega, good points, well made.
> 
> I wish every day that I had never had the affair and had thought about the consequences properly. In all honesty I purposely kept from thinking about the cruelty of what i was doing - stupid stupid stupid.


I don't think that's quite right - when I started suspecting and begging for the truth you had an opportunity .... you chose to gaslight me. You saw the effects on me. I will never forget what you said and did when I found the text from her. .



Lister said:


> Ego is completely under control now, struggle to find it at all.


I don't think that's the case either 

I think if you are going to benefit from this thread that you will need to open up and have an honest discussion. Glib answers wont cut it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

StarGazer101 said:


> I don't think that's quite right - when I started suspecting and begging for the truth you had an opportunity .... you chose to gaslight me. You saw the effects on me. I will never forget what you said and did when I found the text from her. .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think he is sincere. He should be falling all over himself to get you back. Doing the hard work on a personal level. I think he is still playing you. He can't be honest with you on a personal level but can write junk on a forum. It is the easy way out. You are not worth the hard work and he is sure that he will enjoy the convenience of a wife with as little effort as possibility. 

If he is not willing to go all out to make your life anxiety free then he does not love you enough to not do this again. My advice get rid of him. You will have peace and he can try to fend for himself out in the real world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Follow your instinct. You know that he is BSing you. Love is not enough. Stick up for your self and have faith that your life will be better without him. Get him out until he gives you all that you need. I don't think he ever will. You are allowing him to use you. You are more valuable than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't have anything nice to say to you. I think you are still being deceptive. A person cannot indulge themselves for 3 years and then just decide to suddenly acquire character and selflessness. I think you are the same person that had all of the ego stroking for 3 urs. The affair was fior yiur fun and this R is for you not your wife.
> 
> If you cared about her, you would not have hurt her for 3 whole years. I really hope she thinks about what you really are and gets rid of you. I think you will cheat again under the right circumstances after this all blows over.
> 
> ...


Thanks C, not sure i have very much to say to you either.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

But Lister, several people have asked you what suddenly 'woke you up' to your feelings about your W. You haven't responded to that. The people who have asked that have been women. Perhaps you should consider that it's an important question for a woman whose trust you want to gain. It's a basic issue of sincerity, especially after years of deception and contempt.

I believe that if you want a reconciliation with your W that you avoid this question at your peril.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> But Lister, several people have asked you what suddenly 'woke you up' to your feelings about your W. You haven't responded to that. The people who have asked that have been women. Perhaps you should consider that it's an important question for a woman whose trust you want to gain. It's a basic issue of sincerity, especially after years of deception and contempt.
> 
> I believe that if you want a reconciliation with your W that you avoid this question at your peril.


OK, I'll try to answer that and be honest and not Glib.


After D Day I didn't know what i wanted, i was caught and confronted with what i had done. However hard it may be to believe this I genuinely had not 'prepared' for that moment. At the time i expected that SG would throw me out and that the decision would be made for me. When she said that she didn't want me to leave i wasn't sure what to do. I was missing the OW but told her it was over between us. I knew the door was still open but wanted to try and R with SG because she wanted me to and it felt right. I moved out for a while but moved back because SG wanted me to and i wanted to. 

I did not want to see the OW. I knew by then that the relationship with the OW was based on fantasy and that it would not survive a solid dose of reality. Although I continued to lie and TT and try and minimise what i had done I also started to see for the first time for many years how much SG loved me and how hard she was prepared to work for us. 

I have been 'forced' to do a lot of soul searching to try and understand why i did what i did. I have woken up to :

- my failing to be a good and caring husband pre-affair
- my ability to inflict cruelty in pursuit of my own needs
- my ability to manipulate and deceive in order to look less bad
- the utter selflessness of my wife and compassion I had forgotten was there
- how good she is to be with and how good she can make me feel

All of these have combined to tell me that I belong with SG and that I need to change to give her the life she deserves. We are working through a very good book together that is making a lot of sense in terms of understanding what was wrong with our relationship and what we can do to have a loving relationship in the future.

Not sure i have answered the question. It wasn't a sudden slap in the face moment for me although i'm sure it is for some people from what i've read. It was a process of greater self understanding and understanding of SG and what she had endured that led me to know with absolute certainty that i love SG and want to live with her for the rest of my life.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm not sure what either one of you will get out of this discussion. The posters here run the gamut, which means that you may not like much of what you read, but there can also be some startlingly insightful commentary.

I can tell you that reading this makes my own heart ache for both of you. For SG, you thought you had a husband and marriage, but that was a deception. In reality, for many years, you had someone who held you in contempt. For Lister, you were surprised to find a W who was willing to work on your marriage after you had treated her so cruelly. And apparently you continued with the cruelty long after DDay.

These behaviors take their toll. For me the answer is that she can never fully trust you again. Being on the receiving end of contemptuous behavior is soul-killing. The lack of respect takes something away from you in such a hurtful way that the trust never fully returns.

This is, of course, my experience and opinion, but I don't think from what I've read here that Lister has come anywhere near earning back trust, no matter the level of regret at this moment. The memory and hurt of that contempt and cruelty would still very much be there. And for SG, I don't think you've made him work to really earn your respect and love.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Everyone has a limit and I do believe that some hurt is just too much for 99.9% of the population. I know with my vstbxw that she is kind of trying, but she did too much over too long then multiplied the hurt with countless lies.

It does all boil down to contempt - as distinct from lack of respect - and arrogance.

I keep asking my ww to let me go, but she's hanging on and I know we will both end up hating ourselves because of it. This is because she is still too selfish to do what would be best for me; look me in the eye and accept that she's done too much and that we both need to move on - for us and the children.

Reading much of what you say, Lister, it could be my ww typing and I fear that perhaps you have much in common with her.

I hope not and, again, wish you and SG the best.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SG he did not mention anything about love as a reason for returning. Only that you wanted it. You are, the one betrayed but you are doing the work. No wonder he is still lying. He is not committed enough to the marriage. As long as you do all of the work he will stay. But ask too much and he will leave. 

He made the decision to leave you after he was outed. You asked him to come back. It should have been the other way around. He knows that you will not get rid of him no matter how weak his commitment and love. 

Why do you want him back? Love or is it fear. It is obvious even to you that he is not committed to you because he is still lying and minimizing. If the OW was close by, she would be in the picture. he as much as told you he missed her and was not sure what he wanted. Why did he come back to you? Not because he loves you but because you loved him and wanted him. You are willing to work to get him. 

There is a post from a man who cheated for just 3 months and he shows true remorse. Read that post and compare it to your cheating husband. This will happen again when another younger women strokes his weak ego. Don't be the second stringer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> So, Lister, you were found out by your W, no? You didn't have an epiphany after 2.5 years of cheating. And when you were found out, you decided you want your W? Not your AP? Why? Was she suddenly irresistible to you? What is it about getting busted that made you want your W again? (And please don't tell me that you never stopped wanting your W....)
> 
> This for me is a major part of the trust issue. How can SG trust your feelings now? It's not just all the lying for so long while you're in the A; it's not just the pain of the trickling of truth afterwards; it's also not being able to believe you when you express what you say are your heartfelt feelings now.


One day, just one of this days I will meet Alte in person and it will all make sense to me. She can bring up the right things at precisely the right time.:iagree:


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## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

Lister said:


> Thanks WOM, Our MC suggested that legal action might be a response. When the AP texted me at New Year I replied to that effect. She replied i would be laughed out of court because of how i'd treated her. Told her that was irrelevant, that now i was with SG and wanted no further contact. Shared this with SG although she wasn't happy with some of my wording in the text. Had no contact since and my feeling is that the best way to respond to any future contact, should it come, is to ignore it totally and not respond. I think that when she contacts me she is looking for any response, even threats of legal action.


Well Lister and SG I have to say that at least he is handling this contact thing better than my H. He was contacted in Dec now and thought it would be best to hide it from me. :rofl:


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

SG, I think you should be moving very slowly here. Listers responses sound way too complete and text book. They are all the right text book thing for a caught remorseful spouse to say, and I believe others here are picking up that same vibe.

Many of us have been down this path before with remorseful spouses that say ALL the right things, but ultimately are found to still be cheating or eventually end of cheating again.

Don't get caught be a false R. Remember talk is cheap and what lister needs to do is real actions.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

ChangingMe said:


> I have several I want to address here:
> 
> WOM, you always have such beautiful, wise posts. Lister and SG, listen to this man when he posts. He's good.
> 
> ...


Thankyou CM. I guess IC means Individual Counselling? Havn't thought about it but would be interested in finding out more. Will do some research into local services, costs etc

I find myself becoming defensive a lot, with SG and on here too. Need to find a way to stop it but not sure how. I know i find it hard to look deep inside myself. Have spent the past 50 years doing all i could to avoid doing it and avoid talking about emotions, made me feel uncomfortable for some reason. 

How did i become a person capable of betraying my family? I really don't know. SG thinks I may have had affairs before, can hardly blame her for thinking that, but I didn't. Thought about it a few times, fantasised about scenarios where it could happen but never did it. Justified the thoughts by saying that all guys thought about it and fantasised about it. Now i can see how dangerous this attitude was and where it led.

SG and I stopped having regular sex before th A and I started using porn on a regular and unhealthy basis. I can hear the cries of 'how dare he blame this on SG' already, but I am not. We stopped having regular sex for several reasons, as many of them mine as hers. Not sure if the porn had an effect on me, made me more 'agressive' in pursuing the AP. 

By the time the A started i had managed to convince myself that SG didn't love me and I didn't love SG. I did this by focusing purely on her faults (as i saw them) and completely ignoring the positives. As a result when I found myself becoming attracted to a colleague i did nothing to stop the freindship becoming an EA and then a PA. I used the justifiication of 'we don't love each other' throughout the affair and despite the evidence to the contrary.

How could i become a man who could get up and leave SG sleeping to go and visit AP on the weekend and then return later and act as if everything was normal? I don't know. How could I deny blind that I was having an A even though i could see what it was doing to SG? I don't know. 

I know how i did it (living two completely seperate lives, blotting one out when I was living the other), not sure yet why i did it. But I know that understanding this is central to R with SG.

I don't think there was a single reason I became an adulterer, suspect there were a few.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> SG, I think you should be moving very slowly here. Listers responses sound way too complete and text book. They are all the right text book thing for a caught remorseful spouse to say, and I believe others here are picking up that same vibe.
> 
> Many of us have been down this path before with remorseful spouses that say ALL the right things, but ultimately are found to still be cheating or eventually end of cheating again.
> 
> Don't get caught be a false R. Remember talk is cheap and what lister needs to do is real actions.


Don't want to be defensive but..... on one hand is it not better to be saying the right things than not to be saying them. if they are textbook then maybe it's because i have picked up phrases and language from books and this forum amongst other places. Doesn't mean i am being manipulative or insincere. I AM learning every day and WANT to change. I Want the actions to echo the words.

On t'other hand you have a point, there is a danger that I can hide behind stock phrases and responses. Learning not to do this is part of the learning curve I'm on I think.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Lister if you have any hope of true R you had better "find" the whys. From SG's reaction to your your responses to the first few posters to this thread, it appears she is rightfully quick to call you out on inconsistencies. Is she wrong or are you?

She is giving your marriage a chance but I think you know she is being cautious with her heart - and with good reason. Before you put yourselves through any more struggle ask yourself WHY you want to rejoin your marriage. Is it from fear? Fear of:
-financial loss
-loneliness
-loss of your children's love
-being diminished in the eyes of your relatives

You don't need to post your answers. But you do have to answer them honestly to yourself and to SG. I have a feeling that SG fears you are "trying" to muster up feelings for her rather than actually HAVING feelings for her. Of course, that is only my impression.

Get yourself to IC. If SG is willing to give you an opportunity she deserves to have more clarity than "I don't know" because often those words really mean " I don't want to tell you". 

Oh, and IF you're serious about R, then you will FIND A WAY to get some IC. If you can't find a way to do this simple thing then that should tell SG more than you can realise. And frankly, that might be exactly what she needs to come to terms with. 
-


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Lister said:


> By the time the A started i had managed to convince myself that SG didn't love me and I didn't love SG. I did this by focusing purely on her faults (as i saw them) and completely ignoring the positives. As a result when I found myself becoming attracted to a colleague i did nothing to stop the freindship becoming an EA and then a PA. I used the justifiication of 'we don't love each other' throughout the affair and despite the evidence to the contrary.


It's very common, in my experience, for WSs to give themselves permission to have affairs by unilaterally declaring to themselves that the marriage is for all intents and purposes over, that they don't love their spouses anymore, that their spouses don't love them, etc. Unless this is actually discussed between the spouses, though, this can be nothing but a self-serving excuse. Of course, it could be true, but if you've never discussed it, how would you know absolutely?

So, WSs catch themselves in traps. They decide that the marriage is dead and proceed to fall for someone else. They won't leave their families, though, because they believe that that would do untold harm. So now they are trapped and the devastation of infidelity is the result. 

And this is all done by a committee of one. The WS declares the marriage a disaster and decides to have an A all on his own. 

If you had talked to SG, Lister, you might have had a chance of not blowing up your family. You know that the answer if you feel that the love is gone is either some sort of counseling or a decision to separate/divorce. Instead, you've chosen perhaps the most painful way possible to rediscover your love for your W.

If I'm understanding your feelings correctly, you didn't feel you loved her before and during your A. When you were found out, you still didn't feel you loved her and preferred to leave, but stayed because she wanted to try and you surprised yourself by wanting it, too. In the reconciliation process, you have found love for your W again.

This level of detail may seem unnecessary to you, but it is probably essential for SG if she is to try to trust you at all again. She has every right to doubt your love and to be unable to trust both what you say and what you are omitting. If you want a chance, in my opinion, you have to be very transparent, not just with your daily comings and goings, but with the expression of your feelings as well.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I caution some of you to really think about the way you are responding. SG has chosen R as it is right for her at this time. Don't make it your mission to change her mind. Be supportive and stop injecting your own venom into her reality.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Lister if you have any hope of true R you had better "find" the whys. From SG's reaction to your your responses to the first few posters to this thread, it appears she is rightfully quick to call you out on inconsistencies. Is she wrong or are you?
> 
> She is giving your marriage a chance but I think you know she is being cautious with her heart - and with good reason. Before you put yourselves through any more struggle ask yourself WHY you want to rejoin your marriage. Is it from fear? Fear of:
> -financial loss
> ...


WOM I know she is being very cautious and with very good reason. 

There are many key questions i am trying to answer for myself and for SG. Why did I have the affair? Why did i maintain the affair for so long? Why after D Day did I choose to be with SG and not the AP? I understand that answering these honestly is the key to success in R.

I know that to find the answers involves looking at some pretty horrible stuff about myself and that potentially the answers are so unpleasant that that they could irreconcilably damage the chance of R, and i think that still causes me to hold back from total honesty and return to being defensive. But here goes.

Why did i have the affair?
I felt i had lost a connection with SG, we were living separate lives in many ways. I couldn't (or wouldn't) give her the things she needed to meet her needs and so she wasn't responding to meet my needs (Ref HNHN). I enjoyed the thrill of the A, the pleasure of feeling i was meeting somebody's needs , enjoyed the sex and the fact that somebody found me attractive. I felt i had found a soul mate with many things in common who made me laugh and was interested in the same things as me. The relationship seemed fun and fullfilling.

Why didn't I leave SG for the AP?

Because i was scared to give up the life I knew for an unknown life. I enjoyed being with the AP but knew the relationship probably wouldn't survive the pressures of reality. 
I also didn't want to hurt SG, which i know sounds incredible and ridiculous. I worked on the basis that if she didn't know then she wouldn't be hurt. I maintained this attitude even when she told me she knew but couldn't prove it. I just tried to 'bluff it out' and perfected my 'how could you accuse me of that' expression.
I also do believe that I still loved SG and knew that I needed her. I couldn't imagine a life without her even throughout the A and cannot now.

Why did i maintain the A for so long?

Because i became dependant on the AP for meeting my emotional needs (ref HNHN). I got into a routine that became the norm and couldn't see how to end it without hurting someone so i just kept going. It didn't feel like 2.5 years, felt like a blink of an eye.

Why do i choose to be with SG now?
Initially after D day it was fear of change, fear of the reaction of others (especially my son and daughter), and I think a deep down understanding that I belonged with SG. Not loneliness as I would have gone to the AP for comfort and support and not financial considerations as AP was more affluent than me.

Now it's the fear of not being with SG. That thought is like looking into a gaping chasm and makes me feel sick. I am prepared to accept that i stopped loving her before and during the A, but seeing her compassion, grit, care, passion, understanding, forgiveness, sexiness, patience, determination and love, has made me love her more than ever before. If we do separate I will NOT go to the AP. It is over and I feel nothing for her now, even my sympathy is gone as I feel she had choices re. the A that SG never did.

Can I see myself having another affair if SG forgives me?

No! Couldn't bare it and will never put SG through this again. if I am unhappy i will tell her. If I ever think I do not love her I will tell her. If I can no longer bare to be with her I will tell her. Then we will decide what to do. 

I got details of counselling services in my area. Discussed with SG but she doesn't want me to do this. Thinks I will manipulate the IC and not be honest. can see her point as i was not honest in the couples counselling we attended. I was TTing through the process although still think I got a lot out of it in terms of understanding myself and SG better. I do think IC would be good for me and will not be tempted to lie or misrepresent as SG won't be there. 

Thanks for your response and sorry for taking so long to post back.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks for this post.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> It's very common, in my experience, for WSs to give themselves permission to have affairs by unilaterally declaring to themselves that the marriage is for all intents and purposes over, that they don't love their spouses anymore, that their spouses don't love them, etc. Unless this is actually discussed between the spouses, though, this can be nothing but a self-serving excuse. Of course, it could be true, but if you've never discussed it, how would you know absolutely?
> 
> So, WSs catch themselves in traps. They decide that the marriage is dead and proceed to fall for someone else. They won't leave their families, though, because they believe that that would do untold harm. So now they are trapped and the devastation of infidelity is the result.
> 
> ...


Thanks AD, yes you have described it very well from my point of view. It is amazing what a cliche I have turned out to be, I seem to have followed a very well trodden path. Another self delusion thankfully shattered that i am somehow different from the rest of humanity.
Tried to explain a bit more in my last post to WOM.

Devastation of infidelity is exactly what it is and I see now that it will probably take years before any sort of trust is restored. I know she believes that I could have had affairs before the AP if the opportunity had arisen and that I could have an A again. I understand why she is thinking this. Honestly don't know what i would have done if the opportunity had arisen at an earlier time now that i know i had the capacity to do it. Do believe however, that it was meeting the perceived 'soul mate' that triggered the desire to have an A though, prior to that it had been sexual fantasies that i never had any intention of pursuing.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

Lister said:


> I got details of counselling services in my area. Discussed with SG but she doesn't want me to do this. Thinks I will manipulate the IC and not be honest. can see her point as i was not honest in the couples counselling we attended. I was TTing through the process although still think I got a lot out of it in terms of understanding myself and SG better. I do think IC would be good for me and will not be tempted to lie or misrepresent as SG won't be there.


I do disagree with SG on this. I think counseling is imperative to getting to the root of your issues. I have found it tremendously helpful, and it's something I expect to be doing for quite some time. I get the concern about you being honest, but that's on you. You only get out of counseling what you put into it, so it won't do much good if you aren't honest.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Lister said:


> Thanks C, not sure i have very much to say to you either.


Interesting response to my post. I think it shows the level of your hubris. You act as if you are the wronged party and that you are the one who diserves to be handled with kid gloves. 

I hope some of the things I said and your flippant response makes SG think. It may take time to sink in but I hope she factors the quality of these responses into her decision to stay or go. 

As for trying to convince her not to R. This thread was stated by the WS. My response was to him and what I saw in his posts.

If she posted her side of the this sorry situation and she asked for support then I would not respond if I could not give her that. 

He posted and left himself open to responses. He got them.

Even SG says she is still not getting what she needs. If I see a person walking in front of a train what should I do? I hope she does not put herself in harms way. 

This is what I think - she deserves better than 3 years of a cheating husband and 10 months of lying. She should have a fresh start with a man who would cherish a women like her. 

He could have been kind and loving for the last 10 months when she found out and was suffering. But her "loving" husband seems to use manipulation and deception to support a self-centered agenda. Thats what I see.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Lister said:


> WOM I know she is being very cautious and with very good reason.
> 
> There are many key questions i am trying to answer for myself and for SG. Why did I have the affair? Why did i maintain the affair for so long? Why after D Day did I choose to be with SG and not the AP? I understand that answering these honestly is the key to success in R.
> 
> ...


This post has the ring of truth. Have you said all these things to SG?
Find a way to get some IC - one experienced with infidelity or with sexual addictions for both you and SG would be a huge step forward.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Yes. But only if she wants to.

And will she ever be able to fully trust you ever again? Maybe not.

I trust my wife. Again. But if she is late the natural: "I hope she is OK" thought is pushed to one side for a brief moment by an unbidden thought: "Is she with someone?" I know she isn't, but...


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

This thread doesn't make comfortable reading - but I have to say I prefer it to listening to the MC we saw for 9 months wittering on about the "_value of unconditional love_" I often left those sessions feeling that I was being unreasonable for demanding truth. She always assured me she could see the sincerity in his eyes....

I learnt more in the first week reading TAM than I had in all of those months.

WOM and alte Dame your combined insightfulness leaves me in awe! 

Catherine 602 - I feel the sincerity in your posts and I've either thought or said much the same things at various points through this process. Thank you for your support. I totally agree with this.....

_"This is what I think - she diserves better than 3 years of a cheating husband and 10 months of lying. She should have a fresh start with a man who would cherish a women like her". _

I am absolutely demanding a fresh start - I'm hoping that man will be Lister.

I will never forgive in terms of giving absolution for the A, however I can forgive by way of accepting that it's done; I can't change the past; I can learn from it; try to move past the pain and fear and benefit from working on building a future that isn't defined by it. 

I know I can do that, I also know I'm not quite there yet .... I still have fears about Lister's sincerity and I think only time and actions matching words will get me there. He has complied with full transparency and I am as certain as it is possible to be that there is NC with OW

Meanwhile we are both trying to look honestly at our past and deal with the issues we both have/had that brought our marriage to such a sorry state. HNHN has been very enlightening!!!!! 

Rocky road ahead I fear  but it is still a road we will be travelling *together* and for us that really is something!


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Lister said:


> I am a WS who has been visiting this website for a few weeks now as has my BS Stargazer(SG). Our D'Day was last April and since then I have put SG through the hell of trickle truthing, lying to protect myself and for the first few weeks after D day maintained phone contact with the AP. The affair lasted two and a half years and prior to that I was close freinds with the AP for around 6 months. A major betrayal.
> 
> I had the affair for selfish reasons, i was flattered, it was an ego trip, i kidded myself that the AP and me were 'soul mates' and was excited that someone seemed to need me so much, the sex was exciting. I maximised all the good things about the AP and minimised all the negatives.
> 
> ...


It's a daily choice!! Critics of life's mishaps are often quick to forget their own mistakes.

Most of us can look back when we were 18-22 and say "What a idiot I was!", but at that time you were doing exactly what you wanted to do.

That is the same throughout this short life. When you were in the affair you were exactly where you wanted to be at that time. Currently you are choosing to be the man you want to be, but where will you be in 1,3,5, or 10 years?

Just continue to attempt to be her world and put her first. Hopefully the bonds will strengthen. Will she ever trust you like she did before? I doubt it who would trust more after being hurt so bad?

Best of luck!! We all wish we had some mulligans to take in life, so we could redo some things.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

StarGazer101 said:


> This thread doesn't make comfortable reading - but I have to say I prefer it to listening to the MC we saw for 9 months wittering on about the "_value of unconditional love_" I often left those sessions feeling that I was being unreasonable for demanding truth. She always assured me she could see the sincerity in his eyes....
> 
> I learnt more in the first week reading TAM than I had in all of those months.
> 
> ...


Good luck to both of you on your journey together.:smthumbup:


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There's a thread here that is basically an ongoing discussion among people (mostly women) who are trying to reconcile with WSs. It's become something of a support group, I think. You might want to check in sometime just to see how other people are handling the day-to-day.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ht-he-said-he-hates-tam-hates-people-etc.html


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SG I think your MC was way out of line with the unconditional love stuff and telling sincerity by looking in someone's eyes. People who are good liars look very sincere, that's why they get away with it. 

I hope you are not still going to that MC. The proof of sincerity is in the actions. It is easy to say the right things but difficult to act the right way when it is not in your heart. 

Very few relationship have unconditional love at its core; a parent and child relationship is one. A relationships between adults is an exchange of love, trust, safety and satisfactions. 

If your husband thinks that he is due your unconditional love let him know he is not. SG please don't give more than you get. Can you get what you need from your husband? Do his actions match his words? He seems defensive and entitled. 

The glib, and breezy type who bites when he is asked to step up. It is not clear to me if you are making a decision out of stregnth or out of fear of the unknown. 

If it is fear, then you are not demanding enough to have a true R. Read about what true R looks like to see if you are in or out. 

If your husband refuses to give you what you need, you will live in a state of anxiety until he does it again. 

The problem is that if he can't bother to put himself out to assuage the pain he caused then he will not put himself out to prevent you from suffering more pain a year or two from now when another young girl strokes his ego. 

I am just guessing here. It is for you to be brave and think of what you want your life to be. Perhaps being at peace in your life with out the constant worry about being hurt. 

A fresh, new man. No guarantees but at lest a better chance than with a confirmed unrepentant cheater, if that is what you are dealing with. 

Just a little of my background so you can judge what i say. My mother put up with my cheating father from the 2nd yr of their marriage till his death. My mother was miserable but did not get out. 

I really wish you the very best. I pray you have healing and happiness in the future.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> This post has the ring of truth. Have you said all these things to SG?
> Find a way to get some IC - one experienced with infidelity or with sexual addictions for both you and SG would be a huge step forward.


Yes I have, but need to do more explaining.

I know that my main focus now has to be on meeting SG's needs by talking, listening, being open and transparent and reassuring her that I am totally sincere. I still find some aspects of this harder than others. I can listen but don't always hear. Rather than just let her tell me how she is feeling I still often respond by being defensive. I need to just hear what she is saying and if neccessary change my behaviour accordingly rather than take it as a criticism. I need to talk more about how I am feeling and not wait for her to ask. In terms of being sincere I need to show her the love I feel for her more. 

I think both SG and me are a little unsure what could be achieved by me seeing an IC. I think SG doubts that I will be frank and honest and that i could end up using it as a way of finding justifications for what I did. Our experience with the couple counsellor gives her good reason to think this and i totally understand her concerns. Given our previous experience of counselling and SG's concerns I think it is probably best to continue with our R without counselling.

We've had a nice weekend after a really tense start. It's been lovely to hear SG laugh and seem happy. You've no idea how wonderful it is to hear her laugh.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

StarGazer101 said:


> I didn't know about exposure when I caught him. TBH I wasn't capable of thinking of anything much for the first few months.... and I felt so humiliated that I really didn't want to do anything that would make me look anymore foolish than I already felt. The AP is single but is politically active (she was campaigning to become an MSP in the midst of the A) I now wish I had known about doing this .....he was her third AP, and apart from the obvious feeling that a little karma for her would be nice, I do think the public out to be able to count on the integrity of politicians.
> 
> Do I think I know it all? I know as much as I dug for - nothing was volunteered except little nuggets offered to pacify me when I found another damning piece of "evidence". I think I know everything I need to now, and I don't want to know about the sex - I've got the gist. During this time I wanted to believe him every time he told me I "really know it all this time" but I didn't give up digging. Now I'm done with that intensity of investigation and I'm clear .......ONE MORE LIE and I'm done.
> 
> ...


Tell the Scottish Daily Record! If you want to expose her. Certainly the party bosses.

And I never wanted the details of my wife's affair, either. Just knowing that she'd taken a lover was enough, to be honest.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

That you've both enjoyed a good weekend together is all well and good. Yet SG's and your own description of your current status is somewhat akin to two pieces of driftwood brought temporarily together by the currents of a momentarily calm sea. 

You both need to anchor yourselves to withstand the times when tempests arise. This means that you have to examine your motives both past and present (as does SG). You need to re-reestablish some level of trust with SG and cement your commitment to her. You say: "_I need to just hear what she is saying and if necessary change my behavior accordingly rather than take it as a criticism. I need to talk more about how I am feeling and not wait for her to ask._" This is an astute observation. 

But Lister, changing your behavior should be innate and self-directed. Changing behavior at the direction of SG's feelings or words is superficial change. That is the reason I think that guidance from a qualified and experienced counselor is paramount. 

An experienced counselor can lead you to recognize that some changes in behavior are things you want to do and need to do (rather than direct you to do them). It's true that this can also be accomplished with honest dialog with SG as long as you two can remain objective and dispassionate. 

The issue I see with this as a casual observer is that I believe that SG herself is somewhat dubious of her own sentiments toward commitment. SG said:"_It has been a slow painful journey to get here - I honestly don't know if I'd have been so willing to try if I had known what it would be like. I have to believe it has been worth something so I'm willing but wary_."

Catherine602 asked SG some tough but important questions: "Can you get what you need from your husband?" "Do his actions match his words?" Those are very good and legitimate questions. Frankly I don't know if SG fully knows "what she needs" from you. That is why I think IC is important for her too. 

Lastly, Catherine602 characterized you as an "unrepentant cheater". Lister you earned and richly deserve the "cheater" part of that label. It's the "unrepentant" portion that you will have to work hard at - do the heavy lifting - to erase. Again, I think an experienced IC would be a good guide to help you recognize whether you are capable of doing this and if you are, how to demonstrate it. All that being said, an IC as incompetent as your MC was is of no help at all.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

What I read so much of is that many people float along in marriages and make encapsulated, often arrogant assumptions about their partner's commitment or love. Almost always these assumptions are self-serving and very often they are almost maudlin - 'Poor, angry me - it's obvious she doesn't love me anymore - as if she ever did!' etc. These become justifications for doing lots of things, including having affairs.

What I also read so much of is that, once the A is exposed, the WS suddenly realizes that love for the BS had never really evaporated. Either that, or the love is rekindled once the WS looks at the BS with eyes open again.

The problem at this point is that the BS no longer likes the WS as a human being very much. Yes, the trust is gone, but also respect and, in all truth, any real sense of liking, admiring, enjoying.

So, what happens is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You, Lister, didn't think you loved SG and had a long, long A as a result that deeply hurt and humiliated her. Now you say you love and want SG, but I doubt she likes or respects you very much. You've shown her a side of yourself that isn't at all attractive to her.

You will have to commit to a long slog, the end result of which is not at all guaranteed. After all, SG can't possibly know if she will ever like the full picture that her H now presents, which is the man who is what he was before but is also the man who very easily could lie and cheat.

In order for SG to like and trust you again, you have to add a new layer to who you are. You can't erase the part of you that cheated and that she now knows about. You have to add the facet to your personality that can grow from your mistake and can love her unconditionally and can respect her the way she deserves. This is your job right now - not to erase her image of you as a liar and betrayer, but to add a better image of a man who has learned, is truly sorry and wants to be a better man for her.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Can she ever trust me again?*

AD; this is a very good post, every WS including op should follow this. Thanks.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think you have been bombarded with very bad advice from incompetent therapists. There are lots of very damaging therapist out there. I think you have been unfortunate in having had such a horrible experiences when you needed TLC the most. 

I have a suggestion for a book that may help you - Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship AU M Kershenbaum 

Take all of the time you need don't rush. If you feel that you are being pressed for a quick decision, that may indicated the level of commitment. "Let's get this over with so I am not bothered" is not a request for forgiveness and there is no atoning. 

Atoning means the person who hurt you is willing to walk with you how ever much time it takes for your pain to go away. Not on their schedule and at their convenience but yours. If they can't be bothered that is a potential red flag and an indication of problems in the future. 

It may take you from 2-4 yrs to trust again. Based on what you have seen from your husband so far, how much support do you think you will get from him if you have a bad day 6 months from now? In a year? How about 2 yrs. 

That how recovery goes, you are alright for a time then you are triggered by something and it feels like D day all over again. Will he be get over it and stop making my life miserable? 

You just need to think of what your life will be like with this person. It is easy to tell. Under stress, how does he behave? Defensive, argumentative, entitlred to the goodies in life, he wants to reclaim his good standing without any work? 

Your life can be very lonely if you are provid him with a warm home, sex, the cover of staying married like a good family man while you get to deal with your hurt on your own. 

Do you think that the fact that you love him will be enough if he does not love you enough? You may end up living in your own home with someone you hate. The only way you may be able to tell if he wants to do the work is by letting him go.

If he goes, you never had him, if he stays and works hard then it is all good. He is too sure of you now so he can afford to be defensive and argue with you. He can't lose no matter what he does. 

Think carefully and don't rush to make a final decision. If he does not repect and love you enough to atone then let him live the life of a man who was divorced by his wife for cheating and being unrepentant.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Lister, this is my first post to you and I may have missed this so bear with me.

You referenced Dr. Harley's book HNHN, which is an EXCELLENT book to have for building a healthy, thriving, and affair-proof marriage.

Do you also have _Surviving An Affair_ by the same good doctor? If not, order it the minute you read this message to you. It _*will*_ save your marriage, assuming both of you are completely on board with recovery.

I'll give you 2 links to purchase this book. Take your pick.

Surviving An Affair

Surviving an Affair: Willard F. Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers: 9780800717582: Amazon.com: Books

Get this book now. It's a proven plan to fight together through adultery, restore the love in your marriage, and to help SG recover from the trauma that you have laid at her feet. Along with HNHN concepts, which you seem to embrace enthusiastically, you guys could be off to a new beginning with a much happier ending than you could've imagined.

Get the book.

If you have the resources, you also might want to consider the online marital coaching program at MB as well. I would describe it, but you can read for yourself. It's pricey at $945, but I'm reasonably certain divorce would be much more expensive. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for the full package. If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do.

Home Study Courses, Seminar, Accountablity Program

Hope this helps.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Lister,

Reading these books is great but you need to find out what inside of you allowed you to hurt SG so badly and for so long. The affair was bad enough but to TT for almost a year seems to me to be very cruel. IF....and I say IF, the affair truly ended when SG believes it did then you cannot claim the emotional connection with the OW (or as some people like to refer to is...the fog) as a reason for this slow torture. That is all on you. I hear your words on this thread but I am a man of action. Words are cheap, actions matter. What exactly have you done to prove to SG that you have now been completely honest? Have you written down all the details of the affair for her to review? Have you scheduled and taken a polygraph? Have you offered to sign a post nup? Other than reading HNHN what have you done to reassure SG that you are now serious about the marriage?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> What I read so much of is that many people float along in marriages and make encapsulated, often arrogant assumptions about their partner's commitment or love. Almost always these assumptions are self-serving and very often they are almost maudlin - 'Poor, angry me - it's obvious she doesn't love me anymore - as if she ever did!' etc. These become justifications for doing lots of things, including having affairs.
> 
> What I also read so much of is that, once the A is exposed, the WS suddenly realizes that love for the BS had never really evaporated. Either that, or the love is rekindled once the WS looks at the BS with eyes open again.
> 
> ...


That's good. I share this view myself 

Ultimately it will never ever be the same 

Getting that into one's head is a big step and finding out if you even 'like' your new spouse is one of the deal breakers in reconciliation. They have shown a part of them that you either ignored through love or hid and knowing that it is in fact part of who they are is a difficult scenario to manage.

Some can do it but many can't


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

Again many insightful posts.

On DDay1 I was devastated.... I also had another, separate, part of me feeling a strange sense of euphoria 

*Finally* it was said!
I wasn't mad/paranoid/ imagining things
I had a chance to get my husband back
I could start having some control in my life ... I could make decisions rather than having stuff done to me and being manipulated
He chose to stay with me

I had no idea what I was dealing with and was completely traumatised and naive. I've been on a journey since then. 

Until recently it has been me that has done the heavy lifting and that hasn't made me happy or helped my sense of self-respect. It actually took me quite some time to realise that Lister's major contribution to R was ending his A.... the defensiveness and TT weren't healing or respectful, and in many ways were even worse than the A itself. I think that's when I _started_ to come back to the land of the living.

In Jan when she sent her last "forever yours" text something inside me just went F**k it! I deserve better than this!!! That was when I knew I could live without him and was prepared to do so. I have a good job and can easily support myself, and the children are grown so I have no need to tie myself to a man who has, and continues to, treat me with contempt.

I made this VERY clear and finally I got (most of) the truth about the start of the A because a) I think it scared him and b) I'd found out most of the stuff anyway so there wasn't that much more to tell. 

I discovered TAM a week later. It was like coming home .... I found a vocabulary for stuff I knew and felt but couldn't quite put into words. It also stiffened my resolve.

Yes I made it too easy for him and have been paying the price. Has he stepped up to the plate as he should have - no. Would I do it again? This is the killer - yes. Because if I hadn't he *would* be with her now and there would be no chance of R. Will I _continue_ to do it - hell no! 

There are times when I could punch him for what he's done, there are other times when I feel thankful that we have this chance and that I will love him forever, and there are times when I just don't think he's worth the effort of what I know the future is going to hold for me. 

I want to be happy, I know I can't be if it's not a real R. We have a chemistry, enough shared values and interests, a family and a history that means that the relationship can evolve into something worth having if we learn and grow from this time in our lives. We can learn from the problems in our marriage and the A. We both were living with people who didn't actually exist and we both bear responsibility for the creation of those imaginary characters. At 50 years old my eyes are firmly on the future and what I'm really interested in is ensuring the last part of my life is something I can look forward to in reality. 

So the ball's in his court. He knows he has to dig deep, grow up and change himself to be a man I can respect and count on, and I do expect to see real change. 

WOM nailed it:

"_But Lister, changing your behavior should be innate and self-directed. Changing behavior at the direction of SG's feelings or words is superficial change_."

I do believe he can if he REALLY wants to. I know it will be very difficult for him. I see him trying to do some things differently, so I feel hope that he will really do the work that's needed. I know I'm worth it - I hope he's starting to see that too.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Although the conventional wisdom is that A make a relationship stronger if R is successful is really unsubstantiated. The marriage is different but not better. A cheater has shown something of him/herself. Poor impulse control and sense of entitlement. 

Maybe this is difficult to read but I will write it anyway. I really hope it will somehow help you to love yourself and to avoid exposing yourself to present and further pain. 

I have a bad feeling about your relationship SG. I wish so much to see happiness with your H but I see no indication that he has aquired impulse control, character or dropped his sense of entitlement no matter how much it hurts you. 

You said he would be with this woman if you did not do the heavy lifting. This made me so sad. You should have let him go. She would have cheated on him by now. What's more, you would not still be suffering now or have a future that will probably be the same. 

I think you are rationalizing and ignoring the obvious to remain hopeful in a situation that really seems to have little hope at present. 

You have worked hard to hang on to a man who you know would have chosen another woman over you. You then expect him to treat you with respect and love. You worked for a man who did not love or respect you. 

You made it easy for him to have a warm home with a woman who made herself available to him. He is entitled so why not take advantage. As long as you are willing to continue prostrating yourself and not causing too much trouble he will grant you his presence. 

This is awful really just the worse. Why are you exposing yourself to contempt? You need to read the book No more mr nice guy. It is as useful for women as men. What you have done is to devalue yourself for a man not worth the trouble. 

What about your live for him? You don't love yourself if you can expose yourself to this. You cannot love anyone more than you love yourself. It may not be love but fear. You don't believe you can do any better than a selfish man with no character and no self control and zero empathy. Why? Where did this come from. 

I think you should explore IC. There is a reason that you don't love yourself enough. The cances that he will cheat again is very high. His attitude says it all. He does not love you enough to forgo his own interest. He is telling you this in every way possible. By his actions, attitude, and what he does not do. He treated his affair partner far better than he has treated you right? 

What is confusing you is what he says and the fact that you think he chose you by moving back in. He did not chose you. You made it easy for him to have a home, someone to cook, wash his clothes, clean and relieve him sexually. 

Is that what choosing is? Close your ears to what he says and look at what he does and how he treats you. Is he loving, caring, careful to treat you with tender loving care. Compare how he treated the affair partner to how he treats you. 

I'll bet she never got contempt and he was loving towards her without having to be told what to do. It came naturally out of love. But he can't muster even that for a woman who loves him, has had his kids and is a companion, lover and keeps a home with him. You give and get very little. 

I think he should be treating you with at lest as much love as he showed the OW. He should be treating you better but, small steps. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

bfree said:


> Lister,
> 
> Reading these books is great but you need to find out what inside of you allowed you to hurt SG so badly and for so long. The affair was bad enough but to TT for almost a year seems to me to be very cruel. IF....and I say IF, the affair truly ended when SG believes it did then you cannot claim the emotional connection with the OW (or as some people like to refer to is...the fog) as a reason for this slow torture. That is all on you. I hear your words on this thread but I am a man of action. Words are cheap, actions matter. What exactly have you done to prove to SG that you have now been completely honest? Have you written down all the details of the affair for her to review? Have you scheduled and taken a polygraph? Have you offered to sign a post nup? Other than reading HNHN what have you done to reassure SG that you are now serious about the marriage?





bfree said:


> Lister,
> 
> Hi BFree, I know talk is cheap and i am trying to demonstrate my love for SG by my actions.
> 
> ...


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> In order for SG to like and trust you again, you have to add a new layer to who you are. You can't erase the part of you that cheated and that she now knows about. You have to add the facet to your personality that can grow from your mistake and can love her unconditionally and can respect her the way she deserves. This is your job right now - not to erase her image of you as a liar and betrayer, but to add a better image of a man who has learned, is truly sorry and wants to be a better man for her.


Thank you Alte Dame, beautifully put. This is what i will do and your words give me hope.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> That you've both enjoyed a good weekend together is all well and good. Yet SG's and your own description of your current status is somewhat akin to two pieces of driftwood brought temporarily together by the currents of a momentarily calm sea.
> 
> You both need to anchor yourselves to withstand the times when tempests arise. This means that you have to examine your motives both past and present (as does SG). You need to re-reestablish some level of trust with SG and cement your commitment to her. You say: "_I need to just hear what she is saying and if necessary change my behavior accordingly rather than take it as a criticism. I need to talk more about how I am feeling and not wait for her to ask._" This is an astute observation.
> 
> ...


Thank you WOM. Your advice is highly valued and extremely helpful. i wish I could reply in more detail, but time is so tight. I do very much want to change my behaviour, it is self directed, and i think I have made a start over the past few months. However it is clear that i am not convincing SG so must do much more. I would be happy to go to an IC and can see how it could help and have suggested it to SG, but she is not keen.

I'm not sure if SG is clear what she wants from me either. She is clearly visualising life without me which i think is great, i do not want her to feel tied to a man she dislikes or hates for fear of the alternative. Neither of us wants to go back to the relationship we had before the A, we both want a happy, loving relationship. The question is whether I can change enough for this to happen and whether SG can believe i am sincere. I have to believe that i can and that she will.

Thank you again


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

3putt said:


> Lister, this is my first post to you and I may have missed this so bear with me.
> 
> You referenced Dr. Harley's book HNHN, which is an EXCELLENT book to have for building a healthy, thriving, and affair-proof marriage.
> 
> ...


Cheers 3P, much appreciate the advice. certainly the Harley book we are working through just now is so on the button and gives a huge amount of insight into what went wrong with our relationship. Doesn't provide excuses, just reasons and greater understanding. Even gives us a few laughs which are much needed.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Lister said:


> bfree said:
> 
> 
> > Lister,
> ...


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Lister said:


> bfree said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot undo what I have done but I can and will make it up to SG however long it takes. i will not walk away from this relationship. Not because it is comfortable or easy, or because i am taken care of and looked after, or because of money, or even because of fear of change. But because i love SG.
> ...


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Lister said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot add much more as you've already had some very wise counseling on here
> ...


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Lister said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot add much more as you've already had some very wise counseling on here
> ...


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Lister said:


> Headspin said:
> 
> 
> > Headspin, thankyou (I think), you have clearly outlined what SG is going through and described the mountain that I need to climb . Am I up for the task, absolutely, for the reasons i have already outlined and you are right that she deserves better. She has seen the horrible side of me, the selfish, deceitful, cowardly side and now i want to show her that i can change for her and that we can build a wonderful relationship. I believe I can make her happy.
> ...


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Lister said:


> Headspin said:
> 
> 
> > I know she is still hurting today, I will try and help her and reassure her. I think in many ways the pain for SG gets worse not less the more time passes.
> ...


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Bingo! Well said Headspin!


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Lister said:
> 
> 
> > Lister,
> ...


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks for asking. Yes I am in a happier place. Remarried with a wonderful new wife.

The experience really changes you. Hopefully for the better for both of you too!


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

I don't know who insinuated that a marriage can actually become stronger from an affair but they're wrong. 

At best it can be only different. At worst, it is well... ashes. 

StarGazer if you know anything about me, you know that I frequently advise an individual to divorce their wayward spouse. I usually give this advice because the betrayed spouse is almost always, invariably gripped by a terrifying and absolutely untrue notion: that they can't do better. Deep down, betrayed spouses usually feel that the person cheated because they are simply better and needed more meat to dine on. This is of course absurd and I will not delve into the reasons why, but it doesn't change the fact that when betrayed, the wronged spouse feels an unspeakable drive to win back the person. Some people here call it hysterical bonding, it is in truth just a misconception. 

The fact is that you can do better. You can find someone who deserves you. I met my wife when we were 18, and when she left I was 30. The pain I endured in severing the love I had for her (and it was unfathomably deep) was unreal. I was afraid that I would never find anyone as good as her. 

I'm 32 years old and I'm dating a 22-year old nurse. I have a new job and I'm successful. I'm in better shape now than I ever was when I was married. Girls I encounter throw themselves at me and I laugh and say no thank you. These things happened as a part of my restoration because _I realized that good things lay beyond the blast zone of my marriage._ Good things happened when I became confident. And I became confident when I realized that good things were out there and that I could attain them. 

I will not tell you to leave your spouse. And I will say that beautiful things _can_ come from reconciliation. But it would be wrong for this community to offer you tips on reconcilliation simply because both you and your wayward husband post here. 

And regarding your counselor?


> She always assured me she could see the sincerity in his eyes


I was a counselor for seven years and I can tell you that this woman is not good for you or anyone.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Lister said:


> Headspin said:
> 
> 
> > Headspin, thankyou (I think), you have clearly outlined what SG is going through and described the mountain that I need to climb . Am I up for the task, absolutely, for the reasons i have already outlined and you are right that she deserves better. She has seen the horrible side of me, the selfish, deceitful, cowardly side and now i want to show her that i can change for her and that we can build a wonderful relationship. I believe I can make her happy.
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Wish I could give WM post 100 likes.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Catherine, you are to the point! What alte Dame is to being articulate, you are to being direct. 

Thanks for sharing your insights! You always make me think and re-think. I am sure the same goes for the OP and the rest of the readers.


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## Lmodel (Jun 1, 2012)

No sympathy from me old mate. Your just another cheater who thinks that now you've told the whole world the truth that everything will be ok. Don't kid yourself, this will always be there, SG will have to live with this forever. Your a deadest arsehole.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Lister said:
> 
> 
> > When I read this account, I was not surprised. I am certain you were tired. However, be honest, if alleviating your wife's pain were important enough to you, you would have sacrificed 15 - 20 mins of sleep.
> ...


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

Deal with the tiredness as a separate issue - when tired, people become irrational and do and say things that make no sense.

Not an excuse for behaviour, but be aware that mental exhaustion can make your responses very unpredictable.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Lister thanks for responding to my post. I know it is hard, I hate to be criticized and I have to use all my bravery to even look at what someone is saying. I think you are brave and have a kernel of goodness to consider this for your wife. I hope you understand where an imperfect person like myself is coming from. It's not holier that though. If I was not battling selfishness I would not recognize it in you. I am talking to me and you. So I must thank you for opening yourself up to strangers. 

Although I have been blunt it is because your wife reminds me of my mother. God how my mother suffered. You don't know what it is like to love someone and to be wounded to the core. The pain is nearly unendurable. I do think people can change but only when something similar happens to them. Or they are able to find their way back to the feelings they had when they first fell in love. additionally, they come finally see the value in a shared history, and finalky realize that they cannot live without their partner. 

When they do that, they can then walk around in the shoes of the one they hurt and feel the suffering right along with them. . I don't know if you can do that for your wife. I don't know her but, to have a person who has known you for so many years and love you so feircely is a treasure. Not every one has what you have if you read some of the stories on this forum. 

You know don't you that you will never ever have what you have with your wife ever again. No one will give you two wonderful children and raise them with you into fine young people. No on will love you so much that she opens her heart to you even though you have wounded her so terribly. . You know what I say is true. You had beginners luck. But you know nothing else so you don't treasure her or the life you have with her. 

Think about the OW. She cheated repeatedly on her husband. She took up with a man she knew was married and had kids. She is an self-absorbed operator. She would not gracefully bow out when you chose your wife. If you married a woman like her you would know what suffering was. She would have dumped you for a better model before you were 45. Think about you were actually ready to throw away the precious diamond that is your wife for a piece of coal that can be found in any dirt mound! 

I won't keep hammering at you. I think you may actually want to make her happy but you are going to have to become a different man. Because you are nowhere near what you need to be. She can't tell you how to be. You have to want it so bad that you move haven and earth to be what she needs. You have to be so desperately pained that you need to change. So shammed for youe family precious children that you long to gain their respect again. You have to finally appreciate what you have. 

As for cheating again. I can promise you that you will meet a woman or two in the future that you will click with almost before you know it. Everyone does. What separates cheater from not cheaters, a strong love, compassion and empathy for the one who has been there for them. Character the quality of person who honors their good fortune and the people who have given them the most in their lives. You immediately avoid contact. That is when it is easy to do. You do it because your family is too valuable to risk for a few orgasms. . 

Your wife brought you beginners luck, please give her that gift back. Please be a good man, husband and father. Find it in your heart to recognize all that you have. When the time is right, she will find it very easy to work with a loving man who loves her to solve the problems that may have estranged you both. Thank you taking my post to heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Lister thanks for responding to my post. I know it is hard, I hate to be criticized and I have to use all my bravery to even look at what someone is saying. I think you are brave and have a kernel of goodness to consider this for your wife. I hope you understand where an imperfect person like myself is coming from. It's not holier that though. If I was not battling selfishness I would not recognize it in you. I am talking to me and you. So I must thank you for opening yourself up to strangers.
> 
> Although I have been blunt it is because your wife reminds me of my mother. God how my mother suffered. You don't know what it is like to love someone and to be wounded to the core. The pain is nearly unendurable. I do think people can change but only when something similar happens to them. Or they are able to find their way back to the feelings they had when they first fell in love. additionally, they come finally see the value in a shared history, and finalky realize that they cannot live without their partner.
> 
> ...


Catherine, thank you for replying and sorry for taking so long to reply to you. I greatly appreciate your frankness and honesty. The last few days have been very difficult, SG is hurting so badly and I am trying to do the right things for her because I really do want to be a good husband for her and be the man she needs. 

I know i will never find anyone who will love me the way she does but am afraid the damage i have done by having the A and the way i have treated her throughout our marriage is too much to heal and for her to forgive. I will keep trying though because she deserves to be loved so much. I want that love to come from me and not from someone else because i still believe we are meant for each other and cannot imagine life without her. 

You are right that i need to become a different man, change the habits and instincts of a lifetime. She is rightly suspicious of my intentions and questions and challenges what i say and how i say it all the time. When she tells me how much I have hurt her, how cruel i have been i can only agree and tell her that I will never do it again, will do everything i can to change. But i think she hears only the lies i have told her in the past so wonders how she can believe me now. And who can blame her? Hard to move past that but i know my actions are the only way to demonstrate that i mean it absolutely and i hope that over time she will see that i mean it. 

Thank you again for your posts


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Lister said:


> Elizabeth, thank you for replying and sorry for taking so long to reply to you. I greatly appreciate your frankness and honesty. The last few days have been very difficult, SG is hurting so badly and I am trying to do the right things for her because I really do want to be a good husband for her and be the man she needs.
> 
> I know i will never find anyone who will love me the way she does but am afraid the damage i have done by having the A and the way i have treated her throughout our marriage is too much to heal and for her to forgive. I will keep trying though because she deserves to be loved so much. I want that love to come from me and not from someone else because i still believe we are meant for each other and cannot imagine life without her.
> 
> ...


You RETURNED! That says something for you.

It sounds like you are realizing that SG may want out now. If that is accurate, be true to your word as posted above, and let her go in peace. 

Be a good EX! That is sometimes the only gift that a BS will want. You can show her that it is now her choice, and you will support her through a cooperative divorce and arrangements for all family members affected.

It is not uncommon for divorced couples to spend time apart, and eventually find love again.

"If you love her, set her free....." You know the quote.

Hoping for the best for both of you. It is good that you want to examine yourself. I am certain SG is examining herself and wondering why.

We just don't know if SG will chose to start over with someone else.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There's a great movie in which literally everything goes wrong for the (unlikely) hero. At one point, he just gives up and asks, "How much more can you pile on?".

You may think, Lister, that I'm referring to how things seem stacked against you in your attempt to reconcile, but I'm really talking about SG. You piled on the whole gamut of things that a betraying spouse could manage. You had a long-term physical affair in which you believed you had found your soulmate and had what you considered great sex. You told yourself your W didn't love you and you didn't feel that you loved her. When she found out about the A and wanted to reconcile, you treated her with admitted cruelty for a long time.

You may have simply piled on too much at this point. All of this terrible stuff adds up and can't be undone.

But who knows? You may still have a chance. The heart is an amazing thing, sometimes predictable and reliable, sometimes terrifyingly mysterious. 

You want to win SG's heart again, but I think to do that you have to examine your own. You say that you've treated your W badly for a long time. We know you've hurt her badly. Yet, now, you sound like you desperately love her and want her. 

Why has your heart changed so dramatically? I asked you this before, in other words, but I urge you to think about this again. Think about it carefully and deeply. Try to understand it and articulate it. If you can do this and convince SG that you are sincere, she might begin to trust you.

Given what you've told us, the man who would declare his undying love and devotion now is a different man from the one that SG has been married to. Whatever change your heart has undergone recently doesn't make sense to her, no doubt, because it doesn't square with years of her experience.

So, if your feelings have truly evolved, you have to understand how that happened and be able to show her. Your words right now are probably very small consolation. She needs you to make sense of your transformation if she is to trust that you aren't the same man who so callously lied and betrayed.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I am so happy you came back. It is difficult to get someone to believe that your heart has changed. What you are asking her to do is to open her heart to you again. 

If someone hurts you that is the most difficult thing to do. If you give it time and consistency, you may turn the tide. Even though it hurts to hear the wrong you have done again and again, let her get it out of her system. 

She has not had a chance to be heard before. No one was listening, not you or the MC. Now you are finally listening. You are helping her by being patient. 

It does you credit that you have doubts. That means that you set the bar high for the changes you need to make. 

I think you need to consider what she has been through. You seem to have but let me count it up so you can see it in one place - her husband had a 3 yr affair during which he checked out of the family, there were 10 months of lies and cruel treatment by the man that she loves and had children with, there was 9 months of MC where she was told she needed to move ahead and show unconditional love. 

SG has had a very bad year and bad 3 yrs before that. Her heart and spirit are broken. I don't think I would have survived what she has endured with my mind intact. 

She needs the tenderest loving care now and of a long time to get through this. Anyone who walks this journey with her will be rewarded many fold. 

She sounds like a woman who loves deeply, is loyal and forgiving. There is a limit. I think she reached her limit some time ago. She needs someone who has got her back and gives he emotional shelter and safety. 

I hope you are strong enough to give her that. If not, let her go with kindness and no acrimony.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Thank you for this post, it hurts and makes me cry
but it helps


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

_Why has your heart changed so dramatically? I asked you this before, in other words, but I urge you to think about this again. Think about it carefully and deeply. Try to understand it and articulate it. If you can do this and convince SG that you are sincere, she might begin to trust you.

Given what you've told us, the man who would declare his undying love and devotion now is a different man from the one that SG has been married to. Whatever change your heart has undergone recently doesn't make sense to her, no doubt, because it doesn't square with years of her experience.

So, if your feelings have truly evolved, you have to understand how that happened and be able to show her. Your words right now are probably very small consolation. She needs you to make sense of your transformation if she is to trust that you aren't the same man who so callously lied and betrayed.[/QUOTE]_

Hi AD, thanks for your post. 

Why has my heart changed so dramaticaly? I think about this a great deal as you might imagine and do often question whether it really has because i know i have to be totally honest with myself or R won't work. 

I feel like my eyes have been opened again to the wonderful person that she is. I have been forced to confront my behaviour in the past and see how it drove her to despair and created the distance between us that allowed me to internally 'justify' my A. I can see how much she loved me and how much she sacrificed for me over many years and I love her for that and want to find a way to repay her. I see how immature I was and unable to provide the emotional support she needed and it disgusts me the way i treated her when she asked for so very little.

Also the myth that a i created around the AP has been shattered. I fooled myself and allowed myself to be fooled into thinking that there was greener grass in that relationship. I know that SG is the only person i will find true happiness with if we can find a way to stay together. And i believe we can.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I am so happy you came back. It is difficult to get someone to believe that your heart has changed. What you are asking her to do is to open her heart to you again.
> 
> If someone hurts you that is the most difficult thing to do. If you give it time and consistency, you may turn the tide. Even though it hurts to hear the wrong you have done again and again, let her get it out of her system.
> 
> ...


Thank you Catherine, you have described SG perfectly :smthumbup:

What I have put her through is unforgivable and yet I am looking for forgivness. She has been amazingly strong and has gained strength in many ways, i see a very different person now,and this is good. 

I hope i can be strong enough for her. There is nothing i want more in the world.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Lister 

I am in the same position as SG, and when I read your texts it feels like my partner talking 
But the pain I feel is that my partner talking was able to push my love aside, to be able to be defend love aside for someone else, and have the power to believe and build in a new love, this strong that chosing for that love was priority. How much I love my partner and how much I want this toworkout. And my partner partner does work like hell to gelieve do all he can, it still kille me daily to know that he love me but that he was sstrong enough to love somebody more


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Leuven said:


> Lister
> 
> I am in the same position as SG, and when I read your texts it feels like my partner talking
> But the pain I feel is that my partner talking was able to push my love aside, to be able to be defend love aside for someone else, and have the power to believe and build in a new love, this strong that chosing for that love was priority. How much I love my partner and how much I want this toworkout. And my partner partner does work like hell to gelieve do all he can, it still kille me daily to know that he love me but that he was sstrong enough to love somebody more


Leuven, Sorry to take so long to reply to you. 

I find it hard to believe now that I was able to be so cruel and selfish and that i was able to delude myself into believing i loved someone else. I lied and kept lying to SG and I know how hard it is for her to move on from that. The fact that I betrayed her so utterly and for so long must be almost impossible to cope with. I say 'almost' because i sincerely hope we can survive my infidelity.

I hope you and your partner can work it out too. It sounds as if your partner too wants total reconciliation and is showing remorse. I hope it works out well for you.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

I haven't posted much recently because I don't really know what to say. There have been many times where I've had to really look inside myself and question whether it's weakness and or fear that makes me want to stay, particularly when reading some of the replies to this thread. I genuinely don't believe that is the case.... certainly not now for sure.

I still believe we have a bond between us - stretched and weak now, but still there. I see the man, I know him better than I ever have, and I know what he is capable of in the very worst ways and I know he always will be. I don't like or respect much of that and the last few months have been hard. My walls have been up high, and I've felt like I was looking on from a distance a lot of the time.

However I believe I'm _finally_ seeing true remorse in the way he has been behaving. It has been a long time coming and we're not out of the woods by any means, but I feel like I'm starting to see some of the man I believed I was married to re-emerge. I think a lot of it has to do with him having to address the comments in this thread. Everybody in our RL sees "Lovely Lister" and he's never had people deal with him so directly and honestly where he had nowhere to hide. I do respect that he has tried, and possibly for the first time; been honest with himself. This is something I needed to see and believe to help me get past the anger.

I'm still _On Guard_ I suppose, but there is hope that we can R because now both of us are trying.


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## Twang (Mar 22, 2013)

I hope things work our for you two I am in the same place now I have known for about 2 weeks and I have a 24 year old son and watching him cry was so hard. I will be saying prayers that your H is truly remorseful and will be honest and faithful to you from now on. Best of wishes to you both.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

Twang - thank you. it's kind of you to think of us when you are in such an awful place yourself.

I hope you can find a good way forward as well, this site makes hard reading but I am so glad I found it.... although i wish it had been earlier in the process. You must still be in shock right now but try to look after yourself and take the opportunity to learn from what you read and ask advice if you need it - there are a lot of wise and experienced people here who will help.

Sorry you're here


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Star gazer
Lister's last few posts and his expression of remorse and understanding of how things are, his role, his duties, your feelings, seem much more real. Take heart in that.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Star gazer
> Lister's last few posts and his expression of remorse and understanding of how things are, his role, his duties, your feelings, seem much more real. Take heart in that.


I agree with this. "Like" this post seemed little.
I give you permission to hope.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Star gazer
> Lister's last few posts and his expression of remorse and understanding of how things are, his role, his duties, your feelings, seem much more real. Take heart in that.


I completely agree with this! I'm impressed he's stuck it out and has tried to tackle the hard questions. You can see a shift from focus on himself to realizing how awesome his wife is!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

This thread brings me to the edge emotionally when I read it. I don't know why. Maybe it is the shared sense of deep hurt and realization of the love that was disregarded.

SG, I feel for you.

Lister, I hope for you.

Leuven and Twang, you must be like me...never have seen you post your threads.

Some of the words shared by alte Dame, Catherine, WOM, et al, really are priceless.

It helps me realize how far things have progressed for myself in the past 3-4 years.

Thanks for letting us be part of your struggles, and successes!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I agree with the other recent posts - I'm getting the feeling that I had at some point on Rookie4's thread, where the tide turned toward reconciliation. Lister does indeed now have a compassionate voice. Being able to 'see' SG and love her in a selfless way is what's necessary. It sounds to me like she's earned it. I wish you both the best.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

*Can she ever trust me again?*

If she's smart she knows she can never trust you again. Look what happened when she trusted you before.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for the update SG and Lister. 

I am a pessimist so take what I say in that light. 

When the going gets rough and he is still able to hang in there SG, then you will know if his heart follows his words. Only time will tell. 

There will probably be setbacks and frustrations and the desire for you to get over your hurt. You will know if it is momentary frustration or uncovering of true feelings. 

I think you should guard your heart. It will take a long time for him to earn your trust and reassurance of his love. 

I would use his behavior when he thought he loved the OW as a gauge to his behavior when he is in love. If his feelings propelled him to treat OW special when he thought he was in love then he should treat you the same way. 

Look for that. You will know when he is sincere, use your intuition. 

SG, leaving must always be an option and you have to make that up in your mind. Men respect and value what they need to work for and what they stand to lose. 

One element of his cheating was that he may have been sure you would always be there waiting for him. If you are willing to take crumbs that is all you will get. Self respect will never allow you to be treate as second choice by anyone. 

The next time he is tempted to cheat and he will be tempted, he will weigh losing you before he steps in that direction. If he loves you enough he will not want to hurt you yet again or lose you. 

Do things that will make you feel good about yourself. Act as if you are going to start dating again. Get a new hair style, lose weight, exercise to get toned, update your wardrobe. Anything that reassure you that you will be fine without him. That's essential. 

I really hope he is being sincere. If he is not it would be so much better to let you go now. It would be so cruel to prolong your pain or to hurt again due to lack of commitment. You sound so hurt and down that I want to give you a hug. 

Take it slow and easy. And remember - be prepared for a future without him. When you are sure you can let him go and be happy, you will be your happiest.

Come back and let us know how you are doing, ok?


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Twang said:


> I hope things work our for you two I am in the same place now I have known for about 2 weeks and I have a 24 year old son and watching him cry was so hard. I will be saying prayers that your H is truly remorseful and will be honest and faithful to you from now on. Best of wishes to you both.


Twang I am sorry you are here and suffering the devastating pain caused by an A. I have no idea of your own situation but hope that your partner will realise the implications of what they have done and what they need to do far quicker than I did. Try and get them on to TAM to start to get an understanding of what needs to be done. I find the wisdom of BSs and WSs on this sight really helpful and many of the stories give you hope.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> *Can she ever trust me again?*
> 
> If she's smart she knows she can never trust you again. Look what happened when she trusted you before.


Hi Pheonix, you are absolutely right she should never trust me again and she is very smart.

What i did removed any chance of her trusting me again and I have realised that I must always remember that and behave accordingly. I should never have any feeling of entitlement re. her trust as it was my choice to abuse the trust she had in me,, and must always go out of my way to reassure her, for the rest of our lives, it must become second nature and not be forgotten. I have come so close to losing her and may still yet, so i cannot forget the lessons i have learned,slowly, since DD.

Thanks very much for your post.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Thanks for the update SG and Lister.
> 
> I am a pessimist so take what I say in that light.
> 
> ...


Hi Catherine, your pessimistic voice has been really valuable so don't change  Being challenged and questioned hard made me have to really think about what i had done and what i wanted in the future, and what i need to do to help SG.

I know we have a long way to go and that the road will be rocky but i am absolutely commited to travelling that road with SG and spending the rest of our lives together, caring for each other and playing with our grandchildren (and then handing them back to our kids). 

I understand completely that i don't deserve the opportunity to stay with SG, that i forfeited that right. The pain i caused is unimaginable but i see the hurt SG feels every day, although some days she hides it well.

I understand your comment about me being tempted to cheat again some day, but am not sure i agree that I will. I recall the A now with disgust even horror. I have no fond feelings or recollections for the AP and am angry at myself and her for what happenned. I cannot believe I was able to nearly destroy SG and the love she had for me. The thought that i could ever be tempted to go down that road again is unthinkable to me.

Thank you agin for your help.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Seems SG is requiring some trickle-truthing to manage her situation...It's sad, been there. In retrospect, I could not stomach the whole truth all at once. The shock was too great. I felt like I was "sleeping with the enemy", once I found out. It was sheer terror. Everything I suspected about my WH, was suddenly true. Like a meteor smashed me in the face from the black hole. 

I had trickle-truthed my own self to stay in an unhappy marriage for sooo long, even believeing that I was safe when I felt so very vulnerable for years and years. It was very important to me to stay committed, to be loyal, to be faithful, no matter what. So I deluded myself. This bled into my career, my paranoia of walking around in the office feeling that my back was bare with knives in it that other people saw, except me. It was a devastating reality and relief to find out that my fears were not unfounded. 

I then had to mentally back track the years of cruelty, now referencing them to the presence of the third party. It all fell into place...the puzzle pieces finally fit, regardless of what he said, trickle truthed or gaslighted. I KNEW. Because despite the fact that he said I wasn't there and I didn't know what transpired, I WAS THERE AND I KNEW. I knew every miniscule rejection I experienced was real. I was no longer afforded the luxury of gaslighting my own self. 

Then came the part where I sought the validation, seeking more cruely which he delivered like clockwork. Not to mention her. She delivered her own dose. Now the realities were being skewed by both of them with their own sick attempts of messing with mine. 

I finally blew. I painstakingly took every word from their mouths and analyzed them, so that I could be fair...Fair to the unfair. If I was ever in their shoes, my reputation would be best served by filing a divorce instead of living a dual life. There is something intrinsically wrong, but it wasn't with me like he often told me for years. 

I had to finally get to the point of evaluating the odds of this marriage working out...They are zero to zero. For the 2 years I approached him almost daily for the truth, he has refused, in his own inadvertent way. It was my desperate attempt to save the marriage and increase the odds above zero. Then I had to get used to the idea that he is a farce. Now I am faced with the reality of making a plan B. 

Did I need to go through all that? Yes, I suppose. I am able to now face anything life has to dish or offer. Tidal waves back-to-back? A breeze. Losing everything except the imaginary clothes on my bare back? If life wants it, take it.

Lister, do your wife a favor, whether she likes it or not. Tell her the whole truth, no holds barred, whether she likes it or not. Prove that you are willing to face the fall out and help her heal...That's true reconciliation and remorse. You must prepare yourself to help her recover from the deep emotional pain, vulnerability and risks you took with her life (the woman you vowed to cherish and never forsake) that you inflicted against her will, if you want to save your marriage as much you claim. Marriage and reconciliation are not for cowards.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Calibre12 said:


> Seems SG is requiring some trickle-truthing to manage her situation...It's sad, been there. In retrospect, I could not stomach the whole truth all at once. The shock was too great. I felt like I was "sleeping with the enemy", once I found out. It was sheer terror. Everything I suspected about my WH, was suddenly true. Like a meteor smashed me in the face from the black hole.
> 
> I had trickle-truthed my own self to stay in an unhappy marriage for sooo long, even believeing that I was safe when I felt so very vulnerable for years and years. It was very important to me to stay committed, to be loyal, to be faithful, no matter what. So I deluded myself. This bled into my career, my paranoia of walking around in the office feeling that my back was bare with knives in it that other people saw, except me. It was a devastating reality and relief to find out that my fears were not unfounded.
> 
> ...


Calibre 12, thank you for your post, SG now has the wholetruth about the A and about how i felt before the A, she got the truth through detective work, persistance and through confronting me with the evidence. I trickle truthed over many months and did great damage to her and our chance of reconciliation as a result. I wish now i had told her everything immediately after D Day although have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been. 

I am sorry for the pain you have been through in your marriage, it sounds like you experienced a great deal of hurt, sorrow and cruelty. I hope that Plan B works out for you. I know I inflicted a great deal of unhappiness on SG thoughout our marriage and am determined never to go back to how I was before the A. I hate the thought of who I was then and know that if I can't change it will be over with SG


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Wow Calibre 12 just wow.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks Lister. Take care of that wonderful lady you have in your life.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Hang in there Lister


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I wish you both the very, very best. You're in my prayers...


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Thanks for your kindness. I surprised myself by writing that. It was purging and I was crying when I wrote it. That's the beauty with TAM, you get to organize your feelings while trying to help others. I didn't know I had learned so much. 

The key is "volunteering" the truth. Once a BS has to go into "detective" mode for the truth, everything goes out the door, it's insult to injury. It's crass disrespect, layers and layers of it. Can you guarantee SG that you will not deliberately insult or injure her this way again? 

She is fragile, she was severly humiliated (If she didn't feel that way, watch out). She is a woman of character, she has always meant you well, sought your best interests, shewed away potential OMs, she has represented you well when you were not by her side. You have not done that for her. The shock of knowing you were not representing her at all, especially when she was not by your side is a killer. 

The OW feels she has carte blanche on your marriage. She is tremendously lacking in self-respect and is disrespecting your wife when she tries to contact you. She feels she has that power and authority to govern your marriage and your wife's life and you have given her that edge. You must take it back. You say that she is aware of your boundary but you must make it very clear to her that you do not love her and she needs to get out of your life. That door is shut and shut by YOU for your wife's protection. Putting your wife on the pedestal she deserves will destroy the OW's ego: Anorexia 101. 

The OW in my case attempted to contact WH. Why wouldn't she? There was an 8 year EA/PA but he has yet to admit the PA part. How do I know? The greatest dectective tool was my gut and his behavior. I literally felt him and saw him comparing me to her. That's how transparent he is. That is the transparency I got.

It all goes back to why you got married in the first place. I am a victim of my father-in-law's examples of living to WH. I suppose he unconsciously followed his father's script: Womanizer, user and social climber. One day he decided to make his own rules independent of that script. He is still trying to sell it to me at a cut rate special in exchange for my rug-sweeping. I wish that when I was young, I knew more about looking at a person's parents to judge what I was going to have to deal with in marriage. A manual really needs to be written.

SG, you are still married to this man. Expose this OW. How did I do it after 2 years? I wrote everything he told me about her on cheaterville. She needs to be exposed, it will kill the presumptuousness, authority and carte blanche Lister made her feel she had. Lister and yourself need to send her a NC letter by certified mail. 

The worst part about it is telling a BS that their gut feelings are wrong by denying and escaping what you know is true. Irresponsibility. Spouses become one whether they are united or not. BS's know, internal radar tells them, they just can't accuse without proof. Just like the internal radar alerts you when a woman is in your midst who is willing to cheat with you. Can you tune into that within yourself and examine it and reassure SG that you know what to do with it the next time? Better yet, examine it with your wife. Let her into your heart, mind and soul.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

I was so dehumanized to them. When she had PMS and anger, it was because she is human...No mercy for me though, when I had PMS and anger it was because I was in-human, which drove him to her. Ahh, the logics and logisitics. Your wife is human. Treat her as such with understanding, humility and tenderness.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It's the contempt. It's getting past the fact that your spouse thought enough of himself and so little of you to hold you in such contempt.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> It's the contempt. It's getting past the fact that your spouse thought enough of himself and so little of you to hold you in such contempt.


It is indeed one of those things that one aspires to - haven't quite managed that yet - he has a lot to prove.

@ Calibre12 there is much I can empathise with in your posts. I recognise that for much of my marriage I was doing a boiled frog impression. However I'm out of the pot now, and I absolutely do not require ANY form of TT to help me cope with my situation. I can face the truth of what was done to me - I lived it, and it's important to me to know exactly what I was living. The most important thing to me is that *I have choices now* that I never had before because they're based on reality however ugly that might be. Actually in that respect it's freeing.

Something that might be useful for background: In early 2008 the company I worked for was being taken over and my team was going to be made redundant. I had the offer of my current job which meant I could leave early and take enhanced redundancy pay. It involved me living away from home from Monday to Thursday but I had no worries about doing that because I totally trusted my husband and we could not take the financial hit of me being unemployed. Mea Culpa I should never have been so complacent.

I started my new job in June 2008 by Jan 2009 "Katy's Birthday" was noted in capitals in my husband's work diary. (_I found that recently during my investigations_)

I wasn't around to see what he was doing much of the time and it wouldn't have taken me so long to catch him if I had been. he was phoning me when he was with her and telling me he was at home watching TV ...... Ironically my company agreed to let me work totally based from home the month before I did catch him ...... I sometimes think back to what he must have been thinking when I was talking about the possibility of this happening and how it would _make a difference to our relationship_ Ugh!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

That's hard, very hard hearted too. 

I don't know SG. Why do you think he wants to R? If you did not want to R and had not asked him back home, where do you think he would be now? Where would you be? 

Why do you want him in your life? The depth of the betrayal is astounding to me. What you endured after finding out is incredible. I know I am preaching to the choir but I got to say it. Thanks for sharing this. No wonder you sounded so sad. You sound stronger now. 

But I am trying to wrap my head around this. You had to leave your home 4 days a week to work so that your family could maintain their standard of living. That must have been very difficult. I admire your devotion to your family. I hope they recognized your sacrifice and made your time home happy and comfortable. 

Oh wait.... This was when your husband decided to use your absence as an opportunity to play house with the OW. He used the time you were working and the financial resources you brought in to wine and dine tge OW. Your sacrifice was his opportunity. 

Not only that, the feast at your expense was not enough. He let a MC browbeat you and he jumped on for good measure by attitude. Was it only a couple of weeks ago that it dawned on him that he may owe you a debt? I would be hiding under a bed in shame if I did this to my spouse. His reaction was to act like a entitled, self centered [email protected] until a short time ago. 

I don't mean to bring up painful details but i don't know if you have had the proper amount of commiseration. You are not crazy or wrong for the sadness and anger yiu feel. You neeed and diserve to have him tell you explicitly what he did and why it is so wrong. 

A husband with character, empathy and compassion would go about making life easy for his wife while she was away and welcoming her home when she made it back home safely. He would not be spending the resources she made available on OW. 

Have to just say that I admire your resolve to R. I don't understand it but, if you do them that is enough. I get why you are so hurt. Your therapist may not have. Your husband may still not get the depth of the pain and humiliation he brought you but, it is obvious to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

Yes Catherine I think you do get me.

I was looking at what I posted yesterday and realised it might have looked like I was trying to present myself as some kind of martyr because I lived away from home. I wasn't.

One of the _many_ things that really bothers me is the deep humiliation that it went on so long. I constantly feel that people must think I was sooooo stupid and that really gets to me. I was rattled yesterday, and I was trying to justify why it was able to, which in itself is quite pathetic I suppose.

I want to stay with Lister because I do still feel love for him. I've learned a lot over the past year, and as much as I've been damaged by this, I know he's been damaging himself for years, well before the A even began ...... and I recognise now that I enabled much of his bad behaviours. I know he has the potential to be a good man if he truly works at it because he also has many good qualities as well. 

Our future if we manage to stay together could never be the same as our past, because of the things that we've had to go through and learn, and we have learned a LOT! Both of us are changing through this struggle. I think that's a good thing and I do believe there's _some_ hope for us ........ although I'm naturally a pessimist as well.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

StarGazer101 said:


> Yes Catherine I think you do get me.
> 
> I was looking at what I posted yesterday and realised it might have looked like I was trying to present myself as some kind of martyr because I lived away from home. I wasn't.
> 
> ...


Umm sounds like Lister is a world wind of destruction. He damaged himself and damaged you. Isn't he responsible for any of his behavior? How can you possibly have been responsible for all of that?

I think you take on far too much and demand very little. If he has any good qualities then the first one he should pull out for public display is a sense of responsibility. 

Take the burden of his destructive behavior from his wife and stand up under it. That is a good man SG. 

He needs to tell you that he takes that weight from you and is putting it where it belongs, on the creator. 

Are still doing all of the work of R and he agrees with you. You analyze his problems for him? It would be nice if he came to you with a plan to fix his own sh!t. 

I support your desire to R but I just think you have to step back and evaluate what you want your new relationship to look like. And whether you will bail out if it looks like the new is just like the old in fancy dress. 

Do you want to be the only driving force behind the marriage while Lister coast along for the ride? Will that be enough for you?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There's always hope, SG. Always. But having to have hope is very tiring and stressful. It requires a vigilance, a constant watchfulness over things that you ultimately cannot truly control. Letting the hope go for a while might give you a break. Your H did this to your marriage & it shouldn't consign you to a lifetime of desperate silent and not-so-silent prayers that he won't humiliate and betray you again. I hope you will take some time to just find some peace for yourself, even if it's just an hour out of the day. Some time to find a comfort level with the fact that you can't control it, not really.

And as far as the humiliation? The ego tricks us into thinking that we are the dupes in situations like yours. In fact, though, it's your H who has humiliated himself. All the people looking in from the outside see that. There's no shame or humiliation in having trusted your spouse. None at all.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SG you were not stupid for not seeing what was going on. You are honest, kind and loving, humiliating a loved one is not something that is in you to do. 

So of course you would not believe it possible of someone you trusted and loved. 

People capable of deceit use the innocence and goodness of the people they deceive. They know that the deceived person does not think like them so they are safe. 

If you were the type of woman to have an affair, you would have caught on sooner. Lister knew this and he put it to good use.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think when people give themselves permission to have affairs, they need to justify what they are doing for many reasons. Often they simply don't want to think of themselves as bad people, so they recast their marriages and spouses to give them reasons to cheat.

They stop seeing their spouses as three-dimensional people whom they respect and empathize with. Instead, the spouses become figures wafting around in the background who intrude into the cheaters' lives like pests. The spouses are held in contempt to such a degree that their feelings are really nothing to the cheater. They are dehumanized subconsciously but purposely, in my opinion, so that the cheater can live with his/her condemnable behavior.

And then suddenly the cheater breaks from the smug, self-justifying fog & 'sees' his/her spouse again. One of the BW's here recently posted that her H was so ashamed of his behavior at that point that he declared, "I am not a scumbag." Of course, that is exactly what he had been.

So, SG, I don't believe that Lister set out to humiliate you. I think he just didn't care about your feelings for a long time. Lots of people do this to other people, people they say they love. They switch their love off and on; they switch their humanity off and on. Some experts say that these are the famous 'compartmentalizers.' Perhaps. I just know that Lister did that to you. The line in the sand that you can now draw is that you will never be the victim of that again. You now know the signs & you know that you deserve far better. Live and learn.

Lister has his work cut out for him, very definitely. His voice in his recent posts sounds more genuine to me, so I have my fingers crossed for you. You, SG, are a wiser, wiser woman now and will never be in that position again.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Umm sounds like Lister is a world wind of destruction. He damaged himself and damaged you. Isn't he responsible for any of his behavior? How can you possibly have been responsible for all of that?
> 
> I think you take on far too much and demand very little. If he has any good qualities then the first one he should pull out for public display is a sense of responsibility.
> 
> ...


A whirlwind of destruction is a good description and I cannot disagree with any of your analysis Catherine. I was dispicable in how i behaved in every way, pre A, during A and after A. I am trying now to take the weight and to change and show SG my commitment and how i feel. I have learned a huge amount and am determined to put it into practice. Better late than never and hopefully not too late.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I think when people give themselves permission to have affairs, they need to justify what they are doing for many reasons. Often they simply don't want to think of themselves as bad people, so they recast their marriages and spouses to give them reasons to cheat.
> 
> They stop seeing their spouses as three-dimensional people whom they respect and empathize with. Instead, the spouses become figures wafting around in the background who intrude into the cheaters' lives like pests. The spouses are held in contempt to such a degree that their feelings are really nothing to the cheater. They are dehumanized subconsciously but purposely, in my opinion, so that the cheater can live with his/her condemnable behavior.
> 
> ...


When I started the A I was so self centred that i thought hardly at all about what i was doing to SG, only for my own needs and how good being with the AP made me feel. As the A continued i dealt with it by inventing reasons that it was OK.

I would focus on any negatives I could create about SG and my relationship with her and obliterated the positives. It didn't work completely and there were times that I saw how terrible I was being and I would resolve to end the A (and did once ), but by then I found it hard to be close and intimate with SG and turned back to the AP instead of trying to rebuild my relationship with SG .

I absolutely was a scumbag, wouldn't deny that for a single second.

Now I see what i must do, how i must change and how much SG deserves and needs from me. I blame SG for nothing and take full responsibility for the devastation i have caused. I love her absolutely and cannot believe that I was able to bury how wonderful she is beneath the **** that i created in my own mind.
I know she is wiser and in many ways stronger than she was before and that is fantastic. I know that she will not tolerate anything less than she deserves from me.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

Lister said:


> I absolutely *was* a scumbag, wouldn't deny that for a single second.


:iagree:

_‘There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’_

It might not seem like it initially - but the fact that it's here in black and white and we both agree on that; I think is a measure of how much we are actually moving forward. So much of our life together has been blighted by the false image of "Lovely Lister" and how "lucky" I was to have such a wonderful husband. We're now living in the real world - it might be $hitty but it's an improvement.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

StarGazer101 said:


> I absolutely was a scumbag, wouldn't deny that for a single second.
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> ...


And in the common parlance, the OW is/was nothing but a skank. These are societal realities that a WS doesn't see until he/she is out of the fog. It's good that the two of you are on the same page about this now. SG is the honorable one who has nothing to feel humiliated about. Lister's A was tawdry, not a romantic tale of star-crossed love.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Star you mentioned twice now that the private Lister was not like the public one. Can you give details. 

I had this experience growing up. My father was a very good looking man with a very appealing personality that he pulled out in public. Everybody absolutely loved him, thought he was a wonderful family man. 

But, He cheated our family because he spent every weekend with his lover. It devastated my mother and destroyed the lives of 4 children. 

Why such weak, selfish, irresponsible men with no compassion or empathy are blessed with wives and kids is a mystery to me. 

I doubt that my father ever experienced one moment of regret. He probably thought he had a good life. He got what he wanted at the expense of others.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

StarGazer101 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> _‘There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’_
> 
> It might not seem like it initially - but the fact that it's here in black and white and we both agree on that; I think is a measure of how much we are actually moving forward. So much of our life together has been blighted by the false image of "Lovely Lister" and how "lucky" I was to have such a wonderful husband. We're now living in the real world - it might be $hitty but it's an improvement.


R is hard work for both partners. Holding onto eachother and walking through the fire is painful and devastating. But fire not only consumes; it also purifies, and purification can, eventually, become redemption.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Star you mentioned twice now that the private Lister was not like the public one. Can you give details.
> 
> I had this experience growing up. My father was a very good looking man with a very appealing personality that he pulled out in public. Everybody absolutely loved him, thought he was a wonderful family man.
> 
> ...


C I hope you don't mind if i reply to this question although I know you posted it to SG.

From your description of your father it seems as though I may have a lot in common with him (not so sure about the good looking though), although stereotyping is always dangerous I think. I'm currently working through a book called 'No More Mr Nice Guy which was recommended by another TAM poster (BFree who always has wise words and recommendations) and has struck a chord with me and SG in terms of my own behaviour.

In public and with extended family I did everything i could to come across as caring, helpful, polite, kind, a good listener and flawless as much as possible. I enjoyed being seen as the good family man and encouraging the view that SG was lucky to have me. I would always avoid conflict and seek to be seen to help resolve issues and problems. I think i became very good at quickly assessing other people and understanding what i needed to do to be accepted and liked by them. I was very concerned about how I was perceived even by complete strangers and would even agree with opinions that i didn't necessarily approve of in order to be seen to fit in and be accepted. I would even do this at the expense of SG's feelings and not back her up or support her in the face of criticism if it meant an easy life. I was always worried about being 'found out' in terms of work and private life and so would lie and cover up mistakes (big or tiny)whenever necessary to perpetuate the 'great guy' myth.

In public SG was very different in many ways, less confident but more honest to herself, less concerned about how she appeared to others I think. When we had freinds round I would want to perpetuate the idea that we were doing great as a family, that all was well. SG would often share our problems, be honest about our lives and that used to annoy me. I was trying to present an image and felt she wasn't backing me up or creating a united front. Crazy. In many ways i was a snob, more concerned about what the neighbours thought about me than my own wife.

In private with SG I allowed myself to feel that being a great guy doing housework, cooking meals, doing the taxi runs etc meant that i was entitled to more from her. I rarely used any of the skills i employed in public with her, didn't share my feelings or demonstrate true affection. I was dishonest about important and trivial things. Rather than tell her about things that were bothering me or upsetting me I would keep them to myself but allow them to build up and develop into resentment. Instead I would be manipulative to get what i wanted or needed, become huffy or passive aggressive. When we did get into a potentially conflictual situation i would often stonewall rather than work through the issues. I would do everything i could to avoid conflict and preserve the idea that life was smooth, i was doing well, i was a success. 

I developed the ability to compartmentalise that was so utilised during the A. My desire to maintain a fiction of good marriage, that I was a success, meant that i was able to tell myself that it was so and ignore all evidence to the contrary and ignore SGs unhappiness. I convinced myself that by doing the household chores, being a good father, doing taxi runs and cooking nice meals I was being a good husband. Because I found sharing emotions, talking about feelings and demonstrating affection difficult I ignored the fact that these were important to SG even though i knew it to be so. In short i was incredibly cruel to SG even before the A started. 

The effect of this on SG I can only imagine. I starved her of all the things that she desparately needed from me and gave her ironed clothes instead and expected her to be grateful. Then to top it all I went and found someone else to be Mr Nice guy with and soaked up the admiration.

None of this is easy to accept about myself and changing is going to be a challenge. But as i've said before on this thread, if i don't then my relationship with SG is over. We both know it now so there can be no more pretending and no more Mr Nice Guy. I ABSOLUTELY WANT TO CHANGE. 

Reading the stuff above even i find it hard to imagine that SG would want to stay with me. I treated her terribly even before the A and deserve no second chance. But we are still together so there is hope.

A lifetime of habit isn't going to be easy to change. i try to question my motives, thoughts, feelings, actions all the time to spot the bad stuff coming back. I still get things wrong and hurt SG again last Saturday night through my thoughlessnes and conflict avoidance. BUT I think I am making changes and hopefully the new behaviours will take root. I don't believe I am beyond redemption and i certainly don't believe i will ever cheat on SG again. 

I think a lot of my behaviours come from my upbringing, no doubt about it, and understanding that helps a little. However I have always found excuses or others to blame when things go wrong in the past. This time I accept that the ruination i have brought on my relationship with SG and the misery i have inflicted on others is entirely down to me. I could have tried to change long long ago.

Sorry about the long post.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Lister said:


> I don't believe I am beyond redemption and i certainly don't believe i will ever cheat on SG again.


Language can be inadequate as a descriptive tool, but can also be a very clear window onto the consciousness. I pulled out the quote above just in case it was the latter here.

Saying that you don't believe you will cheat hedges and sounds like you're making a prediction. You have to be clear and firm in your commitment not to ever cheat again; you have to say quite naturally to yourself that you will never cheat on her.

Believe me when I say that from this commitment many good changes flow. You describe yourself as a man who was kind and generous to everyone but your W. If you actively commit to fidelity to your W and marriage, you should find that you can naturally find the kindness and generosity of spirit that your W always deserved from you.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

AD I will never ever cheat on SG again. I look forward to a new life with SG with all the awful stuff a distant (but ever present)memory, building on what we have both learned. I know now that she is all I need in a partner and I will never put that at risk again.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Lister thanks for being so forthcoming. I think my father was like you so you have given me an insight that I never had. 

Appearances meant everything to him too, even if he and his family were hurt. I never thought about the damage he did to himself as well as to us.. 

My grandparents, his parents, were strict and emotionally distant. I think he wanted to get them to love him, especially his mother. I think he felt like a failure because he tried but he was never enough. 

Thank you for sharing your feelings, you helped me. Although you may have been selfish in many ways in the past, I think you are on your way to being the man you want to be. You will give yourself all of the love you need and be able to love SG and show it naturally. 

Right now you are learning; it will take time to accomplish. Like anything new, you will fail sometimes. As long as you remain committed and work hard. 

I wish so much for SG happiness and since she loves you, I hope that for you too. My father had a sweet giving wife who was prepared to give him all the love he needed but he passed it up. 

He took crumbs outside of the marriage and all the while, the banquet of his marriage was left on the table. Maybe he thought that he did not deserve better because he own parents did not think him worthy. 

I hope this helps you and SG to understand and be inspired to keep moving forward with the changes.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Lister thanks for being so forthcoming. I think my father was like you so you have given me an insight that I never had.
> 
> Appearances meant everything to him too, even if he and his family were hurt. I never thought about the damage he did to himself as well as to us..
> 
> ...


Glad i could be of help to you too. 

i still have a very long way to go, changing the damaging habits of a lifetime is hard. I hoped that being aware of and understanding my behaviours would make all the difference but they are still powerful instincts, deep rooted. I can feel them inside me a lot screaming at me to 'hide that fact', 'keep it inside', bury that resentment', 'put on a brave face', 'tell them what they want to hear' etc etc !! 

SG's been very supportive in every way but i know her patience is wearing thin. i will keep fighting the instincts though and believe i am changing and slowly evolving into a better man and husband. Just hope SG stays with me.


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## Lmodel (Jun 1, 2012)

She should piss you off and find someone who doesn't lie to her and treats her with respect.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Lmodel said:


> She should piss you off and find someone who doesn't lie to her and treats her with respect.


Fair enough, can understand your point of view. All i can say is that i don't lie any more and do all i can to give her the respect that she is due.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

It is a long time since i posted and a while since i have been on TAM which has been a mistake.

Despite knowing what i should have done to support my BS I have failed and pushed her to a place where she is at her wits end and in total despair, and ill with the stress i have caused her. 

Anyone who has read this thread will know that i know the 'theory' of how to support my BS, understand the behaviours that demonstrate true remorse. And yet I have failed to do these. 

Whilst knowing that complete disclosure and honesty is a pre-requisite to reconciliation I kept a secret of the fact that a mutual 'freind' of my wife and I had known about my affair. I know there is no justification for this as we have seen him many times in the last two years and that I should have told her but I kept this a secret despite knowing the hurt and humiliation it would cause if it ever came out. Needless to say she found out when I told her only because i thought she had found out herself. In other words it was dragged out of me.

Needless to say this further trickle truthing has devastated her and she was very angry. Rather than understand her anger, seek to comfort her and show her the compassion and care she needed I retaliated by seeking to justify what I had done angering her even more. It gets worse. in the heat of the row I told her that I despaired of ever being able to change and that we should give up on the reconciliation. I didn't mean this I do believe i can change and that I have changed in many ways but i felt guilt and frustrated at my own stupidity and chose to lash out at the victim of all this who deserves only love and care from me. 

Our relationship is hanging by a thread, i fear that this betrayal is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I see the love she still had for me draining from her, we havn't touched or held each other since because she can't. I desperately want to hold her and tell her how sorry i am but feel a hypocrite, the one who caused the pain.

I will not pre-judge any responses i get to this update, that is a mistake, but i deserve whatever condemnation i get. I want so much to make it up to her and will try very hard to demonstrate my remorse for what i did. 

There is no justification for my behaviour, but i need to try to understand it so it doesn't ever happen again for that would be the end and I couldn't bare that. 

I struggle with coping with anger, hers and mine. I hate confrontation and seem to do anything to try and bring it to an end rather than work through it, even embrace it as an outing of pent up emotion. 

SG I am so sorry.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi Lister.

You seem to share at least one trait with my ex wife - a willingness to knowingly cause a pound of pain to someone you "love" to save an ounce of inconvenience to yourself.

I don't know where remorse stops and an almost masochistic desire to publicly admit to transgressions begins - perhaps it's all part of the same spectrum.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the only reason for your post here is to show SG how desperately "sorry" you are; what she probably already knows is that you are sorry.

Sorry you got caught.

I am also guessing that, insofar as you are able, you love your wife.

I honestly believe that you, as some other spouses who betray, have some form of borderline mental illness. Something akin to - if not actually - autistic behaviour.

The acid test is how you can be trusted going forward and how SG reacts to this.

One thing is certain; there is more you have not told her.

Because of your lies she will *never* know when she has all of the truth and, by extension, nor can she ever trust you.

Good luck; it isn't my place to wish anything else.

edit: You are using the board in the same way as you used your wife. For your own purposes.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Lister said:


> ...Our relationship is hanging by a thread, i fear that this betrayal is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I see the love she still had for me draining from her, we havn't touched or held each other since because she can't. I desperately want to hold her and tell her how sorry i am but feel a hypocrite, the one who caused the pain.
> 
> I will not pre-judge any responses i get to this update, that is a mistake, but i deserve whatever condemnation i get. I want so much to make it up to her and will try very hard to demonstrate my remorse for what i did.


Lister,

My exWW said almost the exact same words to me. It is difficult.

As a BS I felt much like your description of SG. She probably is tormented over her feelings of ending it, and yet she may feel relieved that there is closure. It is similar to watching a long-suffering loved one pass away into death. We miss them, but we feel a sense of relief when the end is reached. Some feelings of guilt come as we finally have the courage to do what we know is best.

It will be ok. Divorce is a new beginning in many ways. The old is gone, but the new is waiting to be discovered. I hope that you don't get lost in the hurt by making the D a miserable time for both of you. Let it go.

Three years have past since my D. It was a blessing in some ways. Time apart has allowed for healing. My exWW is getting remarried at the end of the month. I am grateful that she is able to do that. I am also grateful to have remarried last year to a wonderful woman. The point is that a change might do both of you good. The future does not need to be bleak for either of you.

Be a good ex. Be a good father.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is for Stargazer if she is reading:

Give up the burden of all of this. Take a deep cleansing breath and tell yourself that you have done everything possible to keep your marriage. Lister's long-term affair and his terrible attitude for such a long time after he was discovered have only served to exacerbate and prolong your heartache.

And that's what it has been, isn't it? Heartache. He broke your heart.

It's OK to say it and to feel it, but no one has to live a life with a broken heart. We can all be very hurt, but we all can heal.

For Lister:

You seem to want what you want. As I recall, you unilaterally decided that your W didn't really love you and therefore you could justify your A, an A that went on for years. When you were found out, you were contemptuous and trickle-truthed your W to death. You decided, finally, that you actually love SG, so now it's time to try to fix what you have wrought. But you are still not honest. How can she relearn to love and respect someone who won't show her the decency of honesty?

Put all your cards on the table, Lister. Tell her everything. You pay your money, you take your chances. Stop deciding for her what she should and shouldn't know. Making those decisions for her is selfish and presumptuous. Just tell her anything and everything and then let her decide whether she is done.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Until you see into this type of person, it is simply impossible to comprehend their lack of empathy.

Lister isn't unwilling to understand what is being asked of him; he is incapable. He will not lay all his cards on the table because he does not, nay cannot, understand why he should.

That is not to excuse anything, but it might help SG gain an insight into what she is dealing with. 

I honestly believe that it isn't for us to give advice in terms of whether to leave or stay, but it is up to us to help someone such as SG make an informed choice as to exactly whom they are dealing with.

Perhaps Lister is a sociopath.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

I've just finished reading the thread from beginning to end, it's just awfully sad to be here a year later. I thought I was numb to it all, but again I'm sitting here in tears. 

Again you are correct AD I am heartbroken


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm sorry, SG. Do you feel that you love him still? Had you made progress until this latest shoe dropped?

A number of wayward spouses have weighed in with their rationale for trickling out the truth. It is simple, obvious, and intuitive. And selfish.

They think that as long as there is a shred of hope for R, they will not admit to any more because, if they do, that will just be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

What they never get is that their only real chance is usually to just tell the truth about everything. They destroyed trust and continuing to lie certainly doesn't rebuild it.

Lister needs to really come clean about everything, in my opinion. Even if you don't feel that you can R at this point, he still owes you the truth. And if you do want to keep trying, he has to finally be honest in order to make it even remotely possible.

And you know what, SG? You should feel some anger, confidence and righteousness. Why does he, or anyone, for that matter, have the right to break your heart so mercilessly? Who is he to have that power to make or break your life? Stop giving him the power. You deserve better than to have someone, anyone, control your life this way. You deserve far better. All you have to do is really, really believe it. Your heart will follow. It's like it wakes up one day and says, "I don't want to live like this anymore. I'm worth more than this."


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Not sure there's much I can say, I have no justification for the pain I have caused other than selfishness. I am so sorry for the pain I have caused and for destroying the life of the person I care for most in the world. 

I know my words sound empty and meaningless but will type them nonetheless. There are no more secrets, SG knows everything. I will never lie again or withhold information. I will stay on TAM and learn from the experience of others WS and BS. I will read the self help books and try to understand why I react the way I do. I will change because I cannot bear to see her suffer more and cannot bear to be apart from her. I'm not a sociopath, read the definitions and accept I meet some of the criteria, but not many (although I'm guessing sociopaths aren't very self aware).

I want no one but SG, she is the kindest, most honest, passionate, caring, principled, loving, genuine person I know. I hate the thought of the AP, she is like a bad dream.

Am I using this thread to manipulate? May seem like that but SG wanted me to post and be honest and try to learn from the feedback I get, so that's what I'll do. Hopefully it will help her decide what to do as talking at home is difficult at the moment.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Dude STOP! We've heard this all before haven't we? It's time to step up or step out. No more words. DO IT!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I am sorry to see you here SG pretty much where you were nearly a year ago. 

What have you learned in that year? I read over the posts in the thread again much as you have done and I think I see a pattern. If you take away the mia culpa's and expressions of sorrow, what do you have? "full of sound and fury, / Signifying nothing". 

It's amazing SG, L words are exactly the same as one year ago as if he was reading from a script. I don't know your husband but you do. 

I am impressed that he could not do one very easy thing for you - get this man out of your lives. He didn't even have to tell you if he was interested in not hurting you. It would have taken less effort than all of his posts. 

The drama was too attractive? He stored that secret and unleashed it when you lest expected it. Maybe he missed the drama and attention of posting on TAM. He thought you found out? Yea right. 

Love is not enough. Loving yourself is enough though. take your hand and lead that vulnerable soul that is you away to recover and live a better life. Read some of the threads from BS who leave what they never thought they could. They , recover and are happy. Just being out of the constant stress of contact with an unrepentant WS is a tremendous relief. They don't look back. 

If you stay, It is likely to be another drama next year and the year after that. All with the requisite lamentations. Sucking up your strong emotion out of fascination to observe what he cannot feel? I don't know, maybe. 

I may be wrong. Being a cynical and prickly person makes me go overboard at times. Just so you know - you can judge accordingly. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

The "drama" stops when SG stops caring. 

When it no longer matters to SG which lies are going to be discovered next. That's what I learned the hard way. It's not a great place for a relationship, but it's an immense relief to be there.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

This is the kind of sh!t I dealt with and eventually threw the towel in on 

Truth is sadly there will be NO end to this 

It will be one revelation after another .......and another 

....until you SG feel you have wasted yourself away, a lifetime of wasted valuable time you should have spent out of this abyss and then you will feel incredible resentment and bitterness justifiably toward him, permanently.

Lister you are a damaged person and maybe should bow out now on the basis that you know deep down you will forever perpetually harm this person even if you in your own way 'love' them although many of us have no real understanding of this kind of 'love'

One thing SG you will feel better about, as I do, even though it may go against much good advice from here, you have given this beyond your best shot and no one can ever look at you and say you left no stone unturned.

Sadly for your own mental health and maybe thinking about just yourself for a change you should forge a life away from him and wake up to the freedom that you no longer have to concern yourself about another lie....... another deceit.......... another treachery..... and on and on 

One thing I can vouch for and I currently am single, unattached, not in any relationship it is a truly wonderful indescribably good feeling to wake up and not have all that sh!t and baggage pounding into your head every moment of your daily life

Good luck on this - you deserve so much more


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I just read this start to finish. ... i could not get over this betrayal. The extent is just too deep


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

> Can she ever trust me again?


If I was her I wouldn't.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

vellocet said:


> If I was her I wouldn't.


My wife is in the same boat but she stayed with me. 16 years later she doesn't trust me 100% like she used to.

Hard to when I burned her pretty bad.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

I can't contribute anything right now but I wanted to thank those of you who have taken the time and put the thought into posting. I really do appreciate and value your thoughts. I am in an unexpected place and I am struggling to make sense of what I think, far less type it. I just wanted to say that I haven't run away even if I'm not posting.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

You know where we are 

Here you are - a year later 

Where do you want to be this time next year ? 

It's hard this stuff, but for once try think of yourself SG


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Lister said:


> The good news is that there are no more lies, secrets or deception.


I'll be harsh here Lister. Long post coming up, oh dear.  i do it sometimes when a situation resonates with my own experience of betrayal. 

The above was from your first post. As well as lying to your BS, you even lied to posters on TAM. 

You are a grown man so what is it exactly about 'the truth' that you don't understand. 

Many cheaters say "I didn't want to hurt him/her further". It's a copout since at the same time BS would have been telling you over and over again that she wanted the 100% truth. As all posters agree- it's a no brainer. 

You were saying all the right words but you didn't walk the talk. 

After your A you didn't provide a soft place to fall for Stargazer. A soft place to fall is a place without shadows or lies.

I had the same thing happen. For 4 years he said and did all the right things and I know he cut off contact because I did surveillance for a long time. All the while my gut didn't feel 100% and I told him as much and begged for the whole truth. Anyway it did all come out about 18 months ago - by my snooping not from him. And here's where we are now, StarGazer will probably understand. 

We have a nice life together, we get on incredibly well, he couldn't be more kind or loving, he is amazing to my children, I still have one child at home, we don't have any together. He has no 'secret women friends'. My gut remains sure he will never have an A again and I trust my gut - it was always right through this. 

BUT, for the past 18 months since I discovered the 100% truth I haven't been able to even hug him much. I'm not punishing him, I would love to be able to feel the way I did before. I guess we are like roommates and we are never apart. And actually I don't want to be apart from him. 

Why don't I leave? Because he's a great partner in every other sense. And also because I was so shocked on D-day that I would never trust myself to trust anyone else again. I NEVER thought he would cheat. We had a very happy marriage and he told me almost daily how much he loved me - there were NO signs of betrayal at all. It's sad knowing I will never trust anyone again. Anyway, I don't think I will ever be in love with him as I was before. I want to but our subconscious is very powerful and self-protective and I think it simply won't let me. 

Does he know this? Probably. Will he leave me one day? Perhaps. If he does, he does, and I wouldn't ask him to stay. The fact remains that love can't be forced. 

There is only so much a person can bear. I am not sure that any of you WS even begin to realise what an assault on the psyche betrayal is, how you arrive in our lives only to trash us in the cruellest way imaginable. Nobody forces WS to stay, all of them could have left to pursue whoever attracted them. There is nothing but arrogance behind it which continues as cheaters refuse to tell the truth when caught. 

Everyones life is precious, every year, every month and every day. But WS don't seem to consider that as they inflict such pain and cause us BS to waste days, months and years of our lives spent in emotional pain.

Stargazer, I'm not sure where you stand now, you probably aren't sure yourself. There is nothing more that I wish for than if you two could patch things up. We are all different in what we will settle for. For me I am older and I simply don't have the energy to start again with someone new and I know I wouldn't trust them anyway. I would rather have a companion than not because WS and I really do have a fun life together and he couldn't be more loving. There is always the chance that down the track I will feel the same about him again I suppose. In the meantime I'm fine with the way things are. 

I guess you have to decide what you will settle for in your life.

Maybe for me I should use that famous catch cry that is used often by WS, "I love him but I am not IN love with him"!!!

Yes I have been harsh Lister but that said my best to both you and Stargazer.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

**********, I would've pointed out Listers quote too, but you beat me on that one. Spot on, and good post.

Lister, I'm not sure what to tell you, you fvcked up, and it makes me sad to read. You may say that it happened a while ago, but it should've been disclosed along with the other stuff, shortly after d-day at the latest.

What exactly is going on in your head? From your writing, it looks as if you know how much SG gets hurt by your lies and betrayal, and you know what to do technically, as you put it?

What is it then? Do you just always put yourself first? Don't you know how to just let go of it all - just surrender to the truth, to the meaning of life and just be? 

Or do you tend to believe that your over it by now? If that's the case; newsflash: You need to commit to honesty and truth and to this process for the remaining part of your relationship - it's for life, if you sincerely want to change into an honest person.

SG, I'm so sorry 'bout this. I know how much TT hurts and how difficult it makes the decission to stay. I was lucky that the TT only lasted 3-4 weeks for the heavy stuff to come out. But I do remember, that every time something new came up, it was back to square one.

In your place, I would probably detach myself untill I figured out what to do about this. I don't think Lister is evil or a bad person. He's just not used to being completely honest - he need to learn that. You need to figure out if you're willing to wait for that to happen.

Best wishes for both of you.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

*Wow, StarGazer! Five and a half years of betrayal!*

D-Day was April 2012....the betrayal had been going on for 3 years before THAT (2.5 year affair, 'just friends' for 6 months before that). That would make it an on-going betrayal since about October of 2008?!?

In another 5.5 years, will you still be wondering what *other* truths you don't know....but friends/relatives/acquaintances *do* know?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Was there a lie involved here or omission? How is the other person that knew about the affair related to the two of you?

The reason I ask is that I would assume at least some other people knew about the affair, yet this seems so severe as to be a deal breaker. I would have thought this might have been a minor point. I can certainly see cutting this person out of your lives especially if they enabled the affair.

Other than this how had the reconciliation been going?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Also, why did the two of you quit this thread?


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## star2916 (May 21, 2013)

I have been visiting this site for a while now and would like to make an observation .

I see people commenting in this post and I have to wonder if they just want to post something or they really want to help. The Original Poster is not married, he has a Girlfriend. The OP had an affair with a woman and some people here are telling the cheater to expose his affair partner because she still contact him. Please. There is not a script to follow in every situation. All are different. To me, it would be very Hippocratic to "expose" his ex lover to make his current GF happy. That is totally child-like. 
As a final note, it would be appreciated if people take more care and read the Original Poster's narrative so when they do advise, the OP feels like at least, they have read their post.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

W.T.H...


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Lister was it you that posted the OW on Chesterville? Just from having read this thread and her (as a featured cheater of the day) I recognized her...


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

star2916 said:


> I have been visiting this site for a while now and would like to make an observation .
> 
> I see people commenting in this post and I have to wonder if they just want to post something or they really want to help. The Original Poster is not married, he has a Girlfriend. The OP had an affair with a woman and some people here are telling the cheater to expose his affair partner because she still contact him. Please. There is not a script to follow in every situation. All are different. To me, it would be very Hippocratic to "expose" his ex lover to make his current GF happy. That is totally child-like.
> As a final note, it would be appreciated if people take more care and read the Original Poster's narrative so when they do advise, the OP feels like at least, they have read their post.


No offence but are you reading the correct thread?

_*My question, I guess, is what can I do to reassure her that I am totally committed to her and our relationship together? In your experiences what are the most important things to do?*_

He's been advised til he's blue in the face to be honest to be remorseful etc etc and once again he's basically crapped all over her - not for the first time. He's followed the cheating script almost to the letter.

Do you see this as being any different from that ? If you do how do you perceive this situation?

May be just me but I can't follow your thinking here


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

star2916 said:


> I have been visiting this site for a while now and would like to make an observation .
> 
> I see people commenting in this post and I have to wonder if they just want to post something or they really want to help. The Original Poster is not married, he has a Girlfriend. The OP had an affair with a woman and some people here are telling the cheater to expose his affair partner because she still contact him. Please. There is not a script to follow in every situation. All are different. To me, it would be very Hippocratic to "expose" his ex lover to make his current GF happy. That is totally child-like.
> As a final note, it would be appreciated if people take more care and read the Original Poster's narrative so when they do advise, the OP feels like at least, they have read their post.


*star2916:* If you have posted your response in the correct thread, then I wish you were a more observant observer! The very FIRST post in this entire thread (from a year ago) states that the OP is MARRIED. He also lists the TAM screen name of his WIFE.

If you click on Lister's profile right now, it still shows him as MARRIED for 20-30 years! You can click on Stargazer's profile (his WIFE), but it shows no personal information for her.

As for being Hippocratic, none of us are pretending to be doctors!  Since OP and his wife are still married and they have been trying to reconcile for the past year, it is neither *childish* nor *hypocritical* to expose a former affair partner who is trying to interfere in a reconciliation!

I agree with you in that I'm sure the OP would appreciate if *you* would "take more care and read the Original Poster's narrative so when (you) do advise, the OP feels like at least, (you) have read (his) post."


*Chaparral:*
An omission *is* a lie if it is done with the intention to deceive or mislead.

_"A lie is not in the words or the lack of words, it’s in the intention of the deceiver; the intent is to elicit a specific response from the asker. Is an omission only a lie when there is an expectation of a truthful answer to a question, where the answer was deliberately used to obfuscate the truth? A deliberate omission can be considered a lie if the lack of information alters outcomes, be it discernment or decision. You do not owe everyone your innermost life story, but if you are withholding relevant information in order to sway a person’s judgment in some way, then it appears you are in fact lying to him or her."_ [EliteDaily]

Just want *Lister* to know that many (most?) of us consider his 'omission' just another LIE!


.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Lister, read ********** latest thread about TT.
It's killing her marriage, despite her husband was/is, except for this "detail", a model or remorse, patience, commitment and effort and is being way more loving than you after betrayals way less damaging.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

It would seem that I'm pretty much in the same place as I was a year ago, and in many respects I am...... but not all.

A year ago I had only just found TAM. I came here looking for _something_ that would help me understand and deal with the pain and confusion of the life I was living. I hadn't even heard of TT! Sadly coming here was like coming home, I found what I needed to know and more. 

I also found the Reconciliation thread; and spent almost a week working my way through and reading every post right from the beginning. B1 and EI's story and all the other stories inspired me to think that nothing was impossible if we were both willing to put our best into it. It gave me hope that with the right tools and attitude and willingness to do the work that we too could look forward to a future where we'd have a happy marriage. I had this wonderful vision of being able to find joy and safety in Lister's arms if we just tried hard enough and opened our hearts to each other. I knew from the R thread that it wasn't going to be at all easy but I really did think it was possible if we could get past the issues we were struggling with at the time - mainly the TT and Lister's lack of empathy/remorse. 

A year later the issues we are struggling with would seem to be the same; TT and Lister's lack of empathy/remorse. However I'm not the same. That wonderful vision seems like a distant fantasy and I feel very cynical and disillusioned.

During this past year I have read everything I possibly could and learned so much about both of us. I have done my best to use the tools and learning we now have available to us to try and build a new and better relationship. I thought Lister was as well ..... and he was, as far as he was able. There has been NC with OW and I am 99.99999% sure of that. There have been changes, and he really has been more compassionate, loving and accountable than he ever was in our previous 20+ years of marriage. We've had fun and at times been closer and more connected than we ever were. We've talked more, and I have seen behaviours that would help me rebuild some respect for him. 

We've not had an easy time of it - I have a strong sense that if I'm giving 100% that I deserve at least that in return and I've not always felt that I got it so there have been arguments and tears and much pain. The last year can probably best be described as tumultuous! Three steps forward, two back - slow progress indeed, but progress; and I was willing to work with that because realistically I think with the problems we're dealing with were never going to be a walk in the park.

This last thing has just blown everything up! This was a significant person in our lives - L's best friend and I thought a good friend of mine. It is another betrayal, a double whammy! It has completely floored me and torn the scabs off of some ugly wounds.

I don't know if what we've been doing for the last year has any value, I can't let him even touch me. I hope Lister has taken to heart **********'s posts because I so empathise with her words.

I'm not asking for advice here, I'm sharing because so many of you have been kind enough to share with us. I read and I learn from the experience of others, it helps me to form my opinions and decide what I want or need to do. Ultimately I'll decide what I want to do with my life and have to take the consequences of right or wrong decisions so I'm not asking anyone to tell me what to do but I cannot say how much I value what TAM and the posters in this thread have given me.

I hope any WS with a "secret" reading this thread can see what a tragedy this has turned into. It could all have been so different.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

StarGazer101 said:


> I hope any WS with a "secret" reading this thread can see what a tragedy this has turned into. It could all have been so different.


Exactly Stargazer and I hope there are lots of WS s reading this. 
I am sorry for your pain. Chapparal said something about it perhaps not being a significant issue. i.e. that WS didn't tell you that a good friend of you both knew all along. The content of the lie doesn't matter a whit. Rather it is the fact that WS is STILL willing to lie. It makes a mockery of R. 
Also I don't want to be lied to about anything by my husband and never did. Who does!
Sometimes I think TT is more painful than when it all came out for the first time on D-day!


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Stargazer as a slight side track here this does highlight something to me and it will probably to you too 

The compulsivity of lying is what gets me almost to the point when they lie as if they were drinking tea !

After years and years of it and then being separate now for almost two years my vstbx is STILL lying now about even unimportant things. This is also a huge part of their mental issue.

It still shocks me that she still finds it easier to actually lie about things that are unimportant, as well as the things that are of course. It's like it's in the blood ingrained. They can't see it of course but they default to the option that is fundamentally dishonest and they do not even know it.

A few months ago when mstbx was being unusually honest she admitted this to me, did not know why she did but agreed she found it easier to be this way :scratchhead: 

Of course it's so so stupid when all one wants is a degree of honesty about anything and even if you don't agree at least you have respect for the truth


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

SG - I will preface this with the disclaimer that I am not a new agey type of person....

But, if I could reach across continents and give you a hug to help with your pain, I would do it gladly. You need to let go of some of the burden, to find some measure of peace.

Let Lister do the work. If he steps up, then maybe you two have a chance. If he can't be the person you need (and he declares he wants to be), then it is what it is. You've made the most valiant effort a loving person could make.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

No excuses for this lie and the devastation it has caused, will try an explanation of my 'thought' process though.

The freind in question I had known for 33 years, since university. He and his wife were the only couple who stood the test of time and remained freinds with us, my other freinds all fell away for one reason or another. And then a bombshell when it was discovered about 7 years ago that he was not only having an affair but that he had a child with the AP and was living a double life flitting between England and Germany. There was no reconciliation and he and his wife separated. We continued to maintain freindly contact with both of them. His relationship with the AP ended messily soon after and he now has no contact with her or his child in that relationship.

About 6 months into my affair i told him about it. he was horrified given his own experience and tried to get me to stop before it was too late. Obviously i didn't listen to him, still in the fog of my wonderful new relationship. I did end it for a while but ended up agreeing to meet my AP for occassional lunches which then turned back into a fully fledged affair. I trusted that he would not tell SG about the affair and that he would tell no one else. 

Throughout the period of the affair we met with him occassionally and even went on holiday together. We actually didn't talk much about my affair, i think he didn't want to and i sensed this and didnt particullarly want to share details with him and actually regretted telling him. 

After our DDay he begged me not to tell SG and i agreed not to. i knew it would mean the end of our freindship and would be devastating for SG to know he knew and used this as a justification for the deceit. I also felt that as he had not in any way encouraged my infidelity, in fact quite the reverse, it would be better to leave him out of it.

So i lied about anyone else knowing. We continued to see him occassionally through the last two years and for my part have only occassionally discussed what we are going through (i suggested for example he get and read no More Mr Nce Gy as he is another one). i don't know what exactly SG has shared with him.

I understand that this is another devastating betrayal for SG and that it has had as great an impact as the original D Day. I understand, finally, that there can be no justification for lying as it is the lie itself that is the betrayal. 

i understand that i have through my life become a compulsive liar, to minimise conflict, make my life easier, portray myself in a better light and avoid difficult truths and decisions. I thought I had learned this as all the truth about my relationship with the AP had been dragged from me. Clearly i hadn't.

What now. i don't know, i have destroyed SG and hate seeing her so lost, tired and humiliated. She feels so alone and I can no longer reach her as I have gomne too far.

Thank you all for helping her.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

God, Lister.

How is it that you think it's your place to make such important decisions for SG?

You decide that she doesn't love you; you decide that it's OK to have an A; you decide that what she doesn't know won't hurt her; you decide what 'truth' she can handle.

No one should have the power to decide the life of a grown adult this way.

I don't think you're a compulsive liar. I think you have been a coward, creating comfortable justifications for behaviors that will bring consequences that you are afraid to face.

Your BF has a history as the worst kind of cheater. Now he is in the mix as a person who has controlled and hurt your BW. What gives you the right? What gives him the right?

SG undoubtedly feels humiliated. It's human nature. But it's mistaken. Nobody would ever think that she has the slightest thing to feel foolish or humiliated about. She has her honor, which people respect.

What do you want from this thread?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I just have one thing to say.

Where is your honor?


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Wow, Lister...

SG... I'm sorry but I think you need to let him go. Sometimes love just isn't enough. Please stop torturing yourself, and begin to heal yourself. (((Big hugs)))


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> God, Lister.
> 
> How is it that you think it's your place to make such important decisions for SG?
> 
> ...


Alte Dame, I'd like you to shout that from the rooftops to every goddamn WS on the planet.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Little else to say really isn't there

You seem to understand you have lost this Lister
You seem to understand why and that there is nothing for her to give
You can only do one thing her - cut away let her have a life she deserves without all your baggage weighing her down every moment of her life

The only thing I see you can take from this is maybe the possibility that you would never treat somebody in this way again but sadly the way you deal with people it seems inevitable you will


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

SG, what could he do now, if anything. . .


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> i suggested for example he get and read no More Mr Nce Gy as he is another one


:scratchhead:

I have to say that here is where my mouth just fell wide open. The thought of two unfaithful husbands discussing what the best reading material might be for them, and No More Mr. Nice Guy comes up.

Trust me, the last thing you two need to be worrying about is being TOO NICE. Lying and cheating on your spouses and then lying some more after that does not fall into the category of "nice."

It doesn't matter if SG leaves you or not, I strongly suggest that you read the book How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald. No matter what happens, you could still help her and the book could still help you. It's designed to help unfaithful spouses who just don't "get it" - you may think you do but most WS's really don't. It also has a chapter on "Changing Your Core Character," which I think you need to spend some extra time and effort on.



> i understand that i have through my life become a compulsive liar, to minimise conflict, make my life easier, portray myself in a better light and avoid difficult truths and decisions. I thought I had learned this as all the truth about my relationship with the AP had been dragged from me. Clearly i hadn't.


And sadly, SG doesn't know for sure if you've learned it yet. That's what happens when a compulsive liar says "I've told no more lies" and another one is discovered. You've got "the boy who cried wolf" problem and your own character has caused that problem. You probably cannot fix this alone - are you in IC? 

MacDonald says that people who are successful at rebuilding wounded marriages _"recognize the need to commit themselves to long-term recovery. Old habits die hard....Successful Rebuilders relish the freedom that comes from living in the light - openly admitting their temptations, weaknesses, and struggles to others. Some call this a 'confessional' lifestyle - no more secrets, no more false pride, no more assuming one is above sexual or romantic temptation. This may mean finding a counselor...."_

Normally, I'd say MC is better for struggling couples, but it's not clear that SG wants to work on the couple while you really do need to work on YOUR issues, especially your character. 

And for crying out loud, quit worrying about being too nice. In fact, I think you should burn that Nice Guy book because it really does not apply to you. If you think it does, I think you are further deluding yourself about yourself and your character. And if your friend bought it, the one who had the affair and had a child from the affair and has nothing to do with that child and kept the secret about your affair, please suggest that he burn it too.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Alte Dame, i suppose everyone has their own reasons for being on TAM.

Reading other people's stories and posts is an important way to gain a further insight into the misery and havoc i have caused. I post to get feedback, however damning it is, and hard to read, and hopefully it will help me change.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopefulgirl, NMMNG isn't about being nice, I am well aware i am not nice. It is explaining what causes certain kinds of behaviours (lying, cheating, stonewalling, passive aggressive behaviour etc) by men for who being perceived as a 'nice guy' is the most important thing. I found the book useful and at a time when progress seemed to be happening in terms of my own behavioiurs I thought he may benefit too.

I will re-read 'How to help your spouse heal from your affair', thank you for the reminder of what a good book it is.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Lister said:


> Hopefulgirl, NMMNG isn't about being nice, I am well aware i am not nice. It is explaining what causes certain kinds of behaviours (lying, cheating, stonewalling, passive aggressive behaviour etc) by men for who being perceived as a 'nice guy' is the most important thing. I found the book useful and at a time when progress seemed to be happening in terms of my own behavioiurs I thought he may benefit too.
> 
> I will re-read 'How to help your spouse heal from your affair', thank you for the reminder of what a good book it is.


I've never read the Nice Guy book; if it says that lying and cheating and being passive-aggressive are behaviors that some perceived "nice guys" engage in and it explains why, then maybe it can be helpful to unfaithful husbands. But then that title is not what I'd call truth in advertising....

Glad to hear you'll re-read Linda MacDonald's book. It's right by my husband's favorite chair.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Lister said:


> Alte Dame, i suppose everyone has their own reasons for being on TAM.
> 
> Reading other people's stories and posts is an important way to gain a further insight into the misery and havoc i have caused. I post to get feedback, however damning it is, and hard to read, and hopefully it will help me change.


We are all here because there is a commonality in human experience that we can all identify with. At the same time, each one of us has a different, unique stack of personal experience that creates an individual viewpoint.

Yes, we can learn from one another. I personally have learned a huge amount about human behavior. TAM has given me an amazing view into esp. the male psyche, which I am very grateful for.

But now, Lister, I have to say that it is far past time for you to stop the navel gazing.

There are horrible tragedies in the world and your own self-inflicted drama/trauma is very small compared to what so many people have to endure on a daily basis. You have to simply grow up and take your place in society as a responsible person who understands that he has been given the gift of a comfortable life surrounded by loving family and friends.

I will quote my wonderful mother when I tell you that it is time to 'straighten up and fly right.'

No more poor mouth about how you recognize what a cr*ppy husband and human being you have been. It's now time to live like a decent, mature human being. 

It's time to wake up. 

It's time to stop honoring yourself.

It's time to honor the people you say you love.

Just do it. No more empty words.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

to: Stargazer.

I have direct experience of this very issue.

It was maybe 3 or 4 months after DDay2 that I figured out - my ex never told me anything - that my brothers in law and at least 2 nephews knew about it - despite me directly asking her about this. Also, her father who died in fall 2010 knew.

I live next door to these people and they are in my life all of the time. Have been for 25 years.

In addition, a mutual friend whom I had known for longer than my ex knew about it - in fact she went along with it at first, before disavowing her but not telling me.

I remember the night I "found out" about my brothers in law; we had just been in a counseling session - another where she had insisted I knew everything blah blah blah - and the car broke down in a dangerous spot. It was dark and we sat there in silence for a minute.

For some bizarre reason I suddenly recalled my father in law's funeral - at which one of my nephews had tried to tell me about it in a not very subtle way.

Anyway, it was like a physical blow to me finding this out and I had to, yet again, reassess everything about everything.

I spoke with some of my in laws about it; they said they didn't know what to do for the best, that they kept telling her to stick with me (they did) and, at the end of the day, blood is thicker than water. People whom have not suffered betrayal simply don't get what a massive issue it is and turn away.

Like many times in life, they should help but instead turn away and "don't get involved".

The problem, of course, is one of trust and I know neither my ex nor her family can be trusted. I always knew it about her family and I found out on May 16th 2012 that I couldn't trust her either.

The rest, as they say, is just icing on the betrayal cake for us.

This may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for you. I hope not. Certainly for me, with time, the lies are one of 3 things that are preventing me from forgiving but one more lie does not change the fact that those that have betrayed us lie and do so repeatedly.

I just thought I'd share as it seems such a similar situation. Not sure if it's any help. I hope it is. My thoughts are with you. I still hope you two make it.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

To both of you:

I also have direct experience with this, except no friend of hers knew. I believe her daughter knew, but I'll never believe it even if they both say she didn't. All I know is when I told D about it, she didn't act phased by it, like I thought she would when I told her her mother had cheated on me, emotionally (common knowledge in our lilttle family at the time) AND physically (not common knowledge, at least to me). 

My W hid her PA from me for a year and a half. I found out by hacking into their affair email account and reading all about it. I walked around stunned like a zombie for quite some time before I could even confront her about it. What did she say? First it was I had the date wrong, that was before we got together. Then it was "I didn't tell you because I didn't want to hurt you."

Hmmm. So lying and taking vows (again) with these secrets wasn't going to hurt me? She wanted to bear the burden of her mistakes. But it was all to her advantage, and she later admitted that much. 

We are in R. We don't talk about it much any more, even though I found this out only a year ago. It's often difficult as I still trigger, daily. 

SG, can you trust him now? Only you and he can figure that out. 

I do wish you tranquility from within. It won't come too soon, I know. Just believe in yourself and don't let this define your value. Keep loving yourself. You are still a whole, good, beautiful person. His actions and lies are not your fault.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

********** said:


> SG, what could he do now, if anything. . .


I honestly don't know, and I really wish I did.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> We are all here because there is a commonality in human experience that we can all identify with. At the same time, each one of us has a different, unique stack of personal experience that creates an individual viewpoint.
> 
> Yes, we can learn from one another. I personally have learned a huge amount about human behavior. TAM has given me an amazing view into esp. the male psyche, which I am very grateful for.
> 
> ...


AD - I just wanted to extend a heartfelt thanks to you for all that you have said in this thread. I hope Lister can take the above to heart. I have no more patience left.


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> to: Stargazer.
> 
> I have direct experience of this very issue.
> 
> ...


Chris - Thank you for this; a sense of perspective helps. I just feel so sad that I really do understand what you are saying


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> We are all here because there is a commonality in human experience that we can all identify with. At the same time, each one of us has a different, unique stack of personal experience that creates an individual viewpoint.
> 
> Yes, we can learn from one another. I personally have learned a huge amount about human behavior. TAM has given me an amazing view into esp. the male psyche, which I am very grateful for.
> 
> ...



AD I promise you and I promise SG that I will do my best. I love SG very much although I know my actions havn't backed that declaration up.


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