# Totally unaffectionate wife, sex is like pulling teeth with her



## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

I'll try to keep this short. I'll probably fail. I've read several other posts on here of men in a situation similar to mine, but I wanted to add my thread for the particulars.
I'm almost 37, been married for 9 years, have two 7-yr old twin boys, both of whom are autistic. We have a third on the way due in July.
When we met and dated, we had amazing and passionate sex every moment we were together (long-distance relationship). I'm in the military, so after we got married and she moved in with me across the country, naturally she got stressed. We were still sex hungry though, but she got a MASSIVE yeast infection and the only cure to keep from passing it to the other was to stop having sex. So we did...and from that point on, she was totally disinterested in sex with me...until she wanted children of course. The lack of sex and emotional disconnect got bad fast, but it steadiy got even worse over the next 9 years.
I am a very loving husband and do all I can to take stress away from her...clean up things, get errands taken care of, etc. Everyhting she asks me to do, I do to the best of my ability. But she takes it all for granted. I feel totally unappreciated. To boot, like I mentioned, our first pregnancy was twins. That obviously made the sex less frequent than it already was. Then they were diagnosed with autism. I feel at this point I was utterly abandoned. I understand the kids come first, but I'm not even a factor in her equation. I'm just a paycheck and someone to take out the trash, fix things, etc. I am very warm and loving and I feel I go to great lengths to tell her I love her, to make her feel loved, to compliment her and support her. But she's even said she's just not affectionate...the total opposite of when we dated. 
Then she wanted another child. Foolishly, I agreed. The sex ramped up a bit, but we still didn't even have that much sex...2-3 times a month (considering we were trying to have a baby!). Then, after she got prego (it took about a year) I feel more abandoned than ever. 
A curse has now possibly become a blessing in disguise. She's having slight complications in the pregnancy...doctors orders are no sex. So it is likely that there will be no sex until well after the baby is born. With the exception of Valentines day, my Bday, and fathers day, I'm not ever even going to ask for anything remotely related to sex (seeing as there's other things she can do to take care of me). And then, when it's OK to have sex, if I get more of the same that I've been dealing with, I'll give her an ultimatum...
"I've been the only one working on this marriage. You know how miserable I am with the total lack of sex and affection. If you're not willing to devote the same kind of energy and effort as I am to each other, this marriage is doomed to fail."
There is so much more I could say, but I don't want to write a novel...I'll expand more as the discussion gets rolling.
Please help...I have seriously thought, if the kids did not exist, I would have left her long ago. As it is, I feel like she has already left me. We're not a husband and wife, we're two friends with the same children who are cohabitating...nothing more. I am totally unappreciated and taken for granted. She's a bickering nag and seems continually unhappy...and not especially willing to talk and is adamantly against therapy. Sometimes she gets angry with me for going out of the way to help because I do it wrong. So I get bickered at if I don't help, but bickered at if I do. The similarities between my marriage and the movie American Beauty are scary remarkable.
How can I use this period of no sex to prepare myself and this marriage to either take a turn for the better or basically end it?
I know it sounds cold to end a marriage with two children with a disability and a newborn, but I have thought about this so much it's crazy. If:
1. the pain of leaving my boys becomes eclipsed by the pain of staying with my wife; and...
2. my mental health deteriorates faster and is in greater jeopardy with her than without her and the boys...
then I think the lesser of two evils is divorce. 
I find myself depressed and angry when I'm normally happy and sometimes I'm very short with my kids and I find myself smouldering. I would NEVER be abusive...I'm a very loving person. I'm just angry, frustrated, and depressed. I feel totally rejected by the one who is supposed to "have and hold" until death do us part. I need help...all of this isn't the half of it.
I love her so much, but she acts like she honestly couldn't care less. More or less, I just get in the way. I'm not her husband any more...I'm an employee. Just another accessory to her life.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

OK...screw it. I'll post something again. The following are a bunch of my feelings I wrote down over the period of a week or so before meeting with a Chaplain to help. One thing he did say was to drop any anger or resentment I had toward her prior boyfriends, that it does nothing healthy. I've been able to do that no problem. Anyway, hopefully this will give you a greater insight as to how I feel...
Points on the state of my marriage.
First, the bad.


1. I feel that in the beginning we were madly in love and now you're mostly neutral and simply tolerate me. 
2. Before we were married, you presented yourself as emotionally warm and affectionate, embracing loving physical contact, hugging, holding. Now you seem unemotional, cold, and as though we're simply two friends cohabitating...nothing more. Yes, you are happy from time to time. But not like we used to be. I don't expect two people in love to be high on that love all the time. But it just seems like I am never the source of that happiness.
3. I got one small taste of who you were when we first met the day I came home from VA Beach and, as I told you, it completely changed me...I was given a new lease on life (and our marriage) it seemed. I immediately tripled my efforts to take stress out of your life...picking up toys, cleaning dishes, puting clean ones away, anything that needed to be done, I did it immediately and without being asked. And I never did any of it to get something. But at the same time, there has to be equal exchange in marriage. And although I've "slowed down" a bit since I got that second wind, I didn't see any change or appreciation from you.
4. I feel hurt to the point of being emotionally crushed that you had all the sexual fun in high school and college with the two most hurtful, unappreciative, and manipulative men in your life. And yet for me, your husband, the father of your children, the one man who has shown you more unconditional love, support, and respect than anyone, I get no emotional or sexual reciprocation...or what I get sexually is so obviously under protest that it's almost worse to have gotten it. 
5. I am in complete agonizing jealousy of Jason and Jon. They got to have the part of you that, as your husband and the man who has consistently shown you more love and support than anyone else, I was supposed to have. I find myself bitter with rage toward them. And it hurts that it only seems to irritate you, not concern you or generate sympathy that your husband is crying out to you for emotional and physical correspondence that just isn't there anymore.
6. I almost boil over with rage when I think of all the formals that you went to with Jason and Jon...how you were all dressed up as best as you could be looking as beautiful as possible...and how they got to dance with you, hold you, and have sex with you; yet you wouldn't even let me make love to you on our wedding day. I resent you for that.
7. I feel that you worked harder on your relationships with Jon and Jason than you do with our marriage. How many times did Jon physically abuse you? How much mental abuse did you endure? How many times did he cheat on you? And you took him back. Contrary to what you believe, Jason did not care about you at all. You were someone he used to make himself feel more powerful...and more to the point, someone he could have sex with when he wasn't with his real girlfriend in Pittsburgh. And when you found out, after you threw the phone, you eventually took him back. And where did it get you? "I gave him my heart and he gave me a flier." You even stood me up on the day we were supposed to meet because (among other very legitimate and understandable things that made it a bad time in your life), you were hoping to patch things up with him. I don't fault you for that, but I'm just illustrating that I feel like you'd drop me without a second thought if I committed any infraction not half as severe as what Jason and Jon did to you. 
8. It disturbs me in a way I cannot describe that you said if our marriage ever came to that, that you wouldn't even bother trying counseling. 
9. I feel that I am the only one who is working on this marriage.
10. I feel like I have been abandoned for the boys. You are an absolutely incredible mother. But you are so wholly devoted to the boys that you've left me completely behind; and any attempt by me to call attention to that fact is seemingly met with indifference, or anger...but mostly irritation. What concern you show appears to be more a mixture of concern and annoyance.
11. I feel like I'm in a no-win situation; if I try and help I get scorned for doing it wrong. If I don't, I eventually get scorned for not helping.
12. I realize that there are a great many things in life right now that have you down, depressed, and constantly feeling behind the 8-ball. I have tried, and continue to try to understand just so that I can be supportive and help when necessary...even though I feel sometimes you don't want any. Nevertheless, I continue to try and understand so that, instead of anger, I can feel more compassion. Sometimes I fail and fall well short, but I try. I don't feel you do the same for me.
13. I feel that without a healthy marriage in place, the boys' uphill battle will only be made worse. There are two ways to help the boys...see to their developmental needs and see to their familial needs. Obviously you are doing everything and then some to see to their developmental needs. You show them love and affection, as do I. But you show little, if any affection or appreciation toward me. It has affected how I feel about you and this marriage. And we cannot help the boys as effectively if our marriage is in ruin or outright fails. The best way to ensure the best for our boys over the long haul is to ensure that they grow up in a home with a happy and successful marriage. Right now, I consider our marriage to be very little of either.
14. I feel like all your happiness in life stems from the boys, whereas all your frustration or anger stems from me.
15. I feel like whenever I voice my emotional or sexual concerns, what I get in return isn't sympathy or concern, but irritation or anger. 
16. I feel we won't see our 20th wedding anniversary if the marriage continues like this. I don't even feel this is a marriage, really. As I said, I feel we are two people who most of the time are simply friends cohabitating more than anything. I have emotional and physical needs for a marriage. I think that alone annoys you and I feel as though you resent me because of it. Regardless, those needs were met completely when we dated and were engaged and even for a short period while we were married. Essentially, since we moved into our house in NE, those needs have slowly and steadily been shelved for one reason or another, until now they are just an annoying byproduct or chore.
17. I feel any of your wants, especially those that I can provide "free of charge," such as support, encouragement, etc., as well as almost any want that comes with a cost (things or activities) are met, almost always very eagerly by me. But the only real need that I have...the need for emotional, physical, and sexual exchange...the byproduct of any healthy marriage and which costs you/us only a few moments of time, are adamantly, and often angrily denied. The only reason I've received is, "because."
18. I understand you have no desire for sex. If I could do anything to reverse that or lift your spirits, I would in a nanosecond. But it leaves me in agony that, knowing how important it is for me, and how deeply I desire it, that you still refuse to take care of my sexual needs in any way or form. If there were something I could do so that you would enjoy it, want it, or even look forward to it, I would do it. If you had any desire or need that I could provide, regardless of how much it disgusted me or how much I disliked it, it would still be a no-brainer. I would do it out of love and of respect to your needs. The fact that you do not feel the same (or maybe you are but not enough to make you willing to act) leaves me nothing short of tortured.
19. I feel like, to an extent, you used me to get pregnant. You were nicer, more pleasant, and of course, we had sex almost weekly. Then you got pregnant and your change in attitude toward me was immediate. It was as though you simply said, "OK, I got what I wanted out of you," and placed me back on employee status. I don't think any of this was intentional necessarily, but I do feel it to be true.
20. As long as I live, it will burn me beyond my ability to describe that you said to me, "I want you to have sex with me every other day until I'm pregnant," and the same day or the day after, you found out you were pregnant. And then your attitude was back to business as usual. I realize that it was not long after that we had the scare and you were apprehensive about sex, while at the same time your pregnancy nausea kicked in. That is well beyond your control. But it is just like my life that you grant me the opportunity of a lifetime to have sex and then just as quickly it turns out to be unnecessary and I come up short. You'll never know how much that torments me. I feel completely and utterly ripped off out of the need I've been trying to communicate to you for the last 8 years.
21. I feel you are not the person I married. I completely agree, nor do I hide the fact that I have changed since we've been married. People change as they grow. But at my core, I'm the same man you drank beer and smoked cigarettes with at Scully's on our first date. At my core, I'm the same man that proposed to you before Oscar night when you came to visit me in NE. But I'm not sure that, at your core, you are the same person I drank beer and smoked cigarettes with on our first date. And I'm not sure that, at your core, you are the same person I proposed to before Oscar night when you came to visit me in NE. I am madly in love with the woman I proposed to. If you truly are that person, then this marriage has a chance. If who I proposed to was an unintentional inaccurate representation of your true self, and the current "you" really is, then I think it is only a matter of time before this marriage disintegrates and fails.
22. Almost without exception, when I'm acting "crotchety" it's because I've been pondering one, some, or all of these thoughts. My highly irritable sense of frustration and anger was made so by everything I've mentioned so far. These points are the sole source of my anger in life.
23. Some days are better than others. Some days I feel fine and I'm in a playful mood and things are good. Other days I simply just sit and stew in my anger. Everything that I'm noting in here is the reason why. While it might seem obvious, I think it's important to say that I like it much better when I'm happy and we both appear playful.
24. While I'm compiling these thoughts to vent and put my feelings, which are often chaotic, into some coherent form, I'm extremely afraid of what you would do if you read this. I honestly don't know if you'd read it, realize that I'm trying to help and begin to repair this marriage through honesty and openness, or if you would become angry enough to formulate a counter-response and then leave.
25. I honestly don't know if you realize it's this bad with me. And sometimes I wonder if I'm over-reacting or am in the wrong for some of my anger and feeling of inadequacy, jealousy, and sorrow or if I'm totally justified.
26. I feel like often times I do little right and only serve to get in the way. I've jokingly, and sadly, thought that I would be the perfect husband to you if I got a frontal lobotamy and just became a drone with no real input and no sexual or emotional needs.
27. You are very critical and rarely complimentary.


Saving the best for last. I want to focus mostly on just you and I...not the boys or how incredible of a mother you are (which could easily be a whole other document) or anything else.

1. First off, I love you so much that there is no way to put it into words. I'm not even going to elaborate.
2. There is no one thing in this world that brightens my day the way you do when you're happy and affectionate toward me.
3. Physically, you are absolutely beautiful. I know you don't feel that way about yourself. But it's true...if I could change any physical attribute about you to make you more appealing or attractive, I seriously would do nothing...not one single thing. You are absolutely beautiful.
4. I have never experienced a more thrilling sense of fun than when you and I are both enjoying each others company doing something exciting. Whether it's the trip to Key West, our honeymoon, or pretty much anything we did when we were dating and engaged and before "life" started to take over our marriage, there is no rush like the one I get when you and I are just having a ball together.
5. You are a smart and headstrong woman who I can always count on to keep me grounded and provide a sanity check on any of my dreams, hopes, aspirations, or just in everyday life. I am so hopeful that I can share with you fully in the fulfillment of all my dreams and all your dreams as well. It may not be easy getting there, but the only thing better than the fulfillment of any of my dreams is to have you there with me when they're achieved.
6. Nothing or no one in this world turns me on like you do...emotionally or physically. Not much else I can say on this one. You just completely excite me unlike anything else.


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## cliff (Jan 31, 2009)

You covered a lot and my situation is a lot like yours. One thing: You said if it's not Valentine's day, your birthday, Father's Day etc. you won't ask for anything sexual... but does your wife take care of your sexual needs apart from intercourse? Or is she completely shut down? 

It sounds like it's getting to a boiling point. Can you talk about this with her without blowing up? If the doctor says she can't have sex, maybe she'll be willing to do other things for you. Or see a counselor to suggest what can keep your marriage together, as clearly your wife is not the only one under stress here.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

No...she basically adamantly refuses any and all sexual (or even emotional) reciprocation. She sometimes says she feels bad, but literally does nothing about it. Sometimes I feel like she might as well say, "sorry...sucks to be you." I could totally get by if she took care of my sexual needs. But she isn't emotional toward me, let alone sexual in any way. 
We've argued countless times, but I don't see the point in it any more. She's never going to see my side...nor do I think she wants to. When we argue, she doesn't listen to me...she hears my words, formulates a counter response to alleviate herself of any blame or responsibility. And I am a HORRIBLE debater. I freeze up and am unable to respond until about a day later or so when I think of the ultimate response. Of course, it's over with by then and we're back to being "normal."
Sometimes I think I'm at fault because I bury it and so easily go back to appearing happy. I have to I think because I want my boys in a happy environment in the house. My wife and I just NEVER have time alone...and we can't just get a sitter because the kids are autistic. Ever way you look at it, it's just tough.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

STOP doing all this loving stuff you refer to. Seriously - don't be hostile - just stop saying/doing/giving love. Be polite and friendly and start focusing on other stuff. When she asks you to do things - just say - sorry I don't have time to do that. 

The REAL issue here is that your response to her treating you badly has been to be even nicer to her. Worst possible thing you can do in this situation. It simply REINFORCES her behavior. She thinks - great - the less sex I give him - the more he runs around trying to please me. 

And you tolerated trying to get pregnant with number 3 - even though she was barely having enough sex to GET pregnant. WHY would you do that? When she asked for number 3, why didn't you demand that your sex life be fixed FIRST and for a while before shooting for another kid? 








jgn2112fletch said:


> No...she basically adamantly refuses any and all sexual (or even emotional) reciprocation. She sometimes says she feels bad, but literally does nothing about it. Sometimes I feel like she might as well say, "sorry...sucks to be you." I could totally get by if she took care of my sexual needs. But she isn't emotional toward me, let alone sexual in any way.
> We've argued countless times, but I don't see the point in it any more. She's never going to see my side...nor do I think she wants to. When we argue, she doesn't listen to me...she hears my words, formulates a counter response to alleviate herself of any blame or responsibility. And I am a HORRIBLE debater. I freeze up and am unable to respond until about a day later or so when I think of the ultimate response. Of course, it's over with by then and we're back to being "normal."
> Sometimes I think I'm at fault because I bury it and so easily go back to appearing happy. I have to I think because I want my boys in a happy environment in the house. My wife and I just NEVER have time alone...and we can't just get a sitter because the kids are autistic. Ever way you look at it, it's just tough.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My first guess is that you're being TOO nice. Women need their men to be strong, loving, but not TOO giving. It makes them lose respect for the man. Keep it even and fair. Just because she has kids to take care of doesn't mean you have to pick up all the slack. 

This requires sitting down and talking. Tell her everything you're feeling. Including this:


> I have seriously thought, if the kids did not exist, I would have left her long ago.


You need to be brave and tell her the truth. That if things don't change, and if she doesn't start including having sex in her life, that she will end up alone. And raising 3 kids by herself, because you will be living somewhere else. Tell her you need a better balance of SOME attention on you and not 100% on the kids, and tell her that you will NOT remain in a sexless marriage. Offer to change up the sex to be what she likes, but it HAS to be part of the marriage. Don't let her weasel out. Be fair but loving.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

I cannot imagine the stress that twin autistic children would bring to a relationship. I think this is the biggest issue here. You need to seek help from whatever the Developmental Disablities agency is in your State.

Also it does appear that you have some serious lack in the Alpha Male trait department, and are expectting that being purely Beta is going to get you the sexual response you want. It simply won't.

I'd hold off on giving her letters for now. Just find something productive to do to make yourself a more assertive presence. You may enjoy Be Both Alpha And Beta: The Journey Is The Reward


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

MEM and turnera, thank you for your replies. I agree completely that I have to stop being everything to my wife. I guess I'd thought of that before but for some reason it didn't stick...that if I do everything she asks what incentive does she even have to do anything for me or improve herself as a wife?
I also agree that the truth needs to come out. I also think I need to be less available. I've stated that I wanted to go shoot pool with a friend each Wed...I'm going to do that. I have also started working out each weekday at the gym...I may start doing that after work instead of before so that I'm not around as much. 
I think that while she is pregnant I need to slowly start being a little more distant, less available, while still being supportive. And after the baby comes and the doctor medically approves sex, if things don't change...if we don't start having regular sex or if she still refuses to acknowledge my needs, then I'm going to have the full out honest revelation of my feelings.
I've thought more than once that my lack of being an alpha male has been hurting this the whole time. I just love her so much it is tough to be hard on her so to speak, which is often what being an alpha male is about. But then again, I need to stand up for myself.
The scary/messed up thing is, I sometimes feel like she will give up on this marriage than on her past relationships. I think that's almost liberating now that I think about it...cuz if it's the case, I'll be leaving.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JGN,
MOST important thing if you want respect. STOP talking and start doing. So pool - great. Working out at the gym - even better. Be friendly and polite. You can't have sex right now - no problem. The female mate of an alpha would be giving him some sort of relief now - hand jobs - oral. So when your wife starts to complain about you not being home - in a friendly but firm voice let her know that "no intercourse" is fine, but her lack of doing anything for you sexually is unacceptable. 

And JGN - if you want her to take you seriously say it like that. USE AS FEW WORDS AS POSSIBLE. Betas talk and talk and talk. They want people to understand WHY they are doing something, why they feel a certain way. An alpha has no need to explain anything other then what he wants. He is fine saying in one or two sentences what he needs. And then he doesn't whine about it or talk about it at ALL if the other person doesn't do what he asked. He TAKES ACTION. In your case that action is to be less available and less loving - while NOT being cranky or angry or rude. If she asks you why you are not helping after you have told her about the sex - just smile and say - "no sex - no cooperation." And do not talk about it further then that. 










jgn2112fletch said:


> MEM and turnera, thank you for your replies. I agree completely that I have to stop being everything to my wife. I guess I'd thought of that before but for some reason it didn't stick...that if I do everything she asks what incentive does she even have to do anything for me or improve herself as a wife?
> I also agree that the truth needs to come out. I also think I need to be less available. I've stated that I wanted to go shoot pool with a friend each Wed...I'm going to do that. I have also started working out each weekday at the gym...I may start doing that after work instead of before so that I'm not around as much.
> I think that while she is pregnant I need to slowly start being a little more distant, less available, while still being supportive. And after the baby comes and the doctor medically approves sex, if things don't change...if we don't start having regular sex or if she still refuses to acknowledge my needs, then I'm going to have the full out honest revelation of my feelings.
> I've thought more than once that my lack of being an alpha male has been hurting this the whole time. I just love her so much it is tough to be hard on her so to speak, which is often what being an alpha male is about. But then again, I need to stand up for myself.
> The scary/messed up thing is, I sometimes feel like she will give up on this marriage than on her past relationships. I think that's almost liberating now that I think about it...cuz if it's the case, I'll be leaving.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

MEM...I really appreciate your words of advice. I know you post on here regularly and have a lot of insight. My wife knows how serious I am about working out. I feel better about myself too. We'll see how Valentines day goes. I have the feeling it's going to be something like this:
She's going to give me a card with a nice Valentines-ish thing and she writes, "I love you" and that's it. I give her a gift which I already got and she modestly says thanks. Because we have no time alone...ever, I'm going to take part of Monday off so we can be alone (or I'm going to suggest this to her). She is going to not like the idea or discourage it. And if I DO do it and she doesn't take care of me, then my attitude will then shift to where you've mentioned: I've been a very attentive and devoted husband to her...since she obviously doesn't feel the same obligation toward me, then it's time for me to take care of myself. Etc, etc.
I think just because we can't have sex doesn't mean she can't be sexual with me (not that she ever has before since we got married). So there's still no excuse for her to not take care of my needs. I understand shes stressed. I understand she's off her antidepressants. Her mom recently had a relapse of cancer...but bad things in life should not equate to, "Ok...*insert bad event* happened, so I'll stop concerning with my husband and the guy who has supported and loved me more than any other man except my father." It doesn't work like that. I just HATE to see her upset, so I just have to hunker down and stand up for myself for a change. It's always something in our life that provides an external negative force that doesn't make it cut and dry.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JGN,
This is my view of it. Women who don't like sex ALWAYS try to make it someone else's fault. Someone died, the kids are stressful, their husband wasn't perfect for the last 3 months. Unless you force the issue she is never going to stop blamestorming and you are never going to have a sex life. 

Let me give you the other end of the spectrum. I got home Monday night around 8 pm from a 2 week consulting trip. My wife has:
- A pelvic inflammation that is quite uncomfortable so intercourse is completely out of the question
- Some sadness about our oldest child - real sadness about some ugly recent stuff that I am also upset about

And yet - Monday, Tuesday and last night she rocked my world in the way that most men love. And each night I told her I would be fine if we did not connect. And each night she said "you were away for 2 weeks - no sex - no touch - let me make up for lost time". 






jgn2112fletch said:


> MEM...I really appreciate your words of advice. I know you post on here regularly and have a lot of insight. My wife knows how serious I am about working out. I feel better about myself too. We'll see how Valentines day goes. I have the feeling it's going to be something like this:
> She's going to give me a card with a nice Valentines-ish thing and she writes, "I love you" and that's it. I give her a gift which I already got and she modestly says thanks. Because we have no time alone...ever, I'm going to take part of Monday off so we can be alone (or I'm going to suggest this to her). She is going to not like the idea or discourage it. And if I DO do it and she doesn't take care of me, then my attitude will then shift to where you've mentioned: I've been a very attentive and devoted husband to her...since she obviously doesn't feel the same obligation toward me, then it's time for me to take care of myself. Etc, etc.
> I think just because we can't have sex doesn't mean she can't be sexual with me (not that she ever has before since we got married). So there's still no excuse for her to not take care of my needs. I understand shes stressed. I understand she's off her antidepressants. Her mom recently had a relapse of cancer...but bad things in life should not equate to, "Ok...*insert bad event* happened, so I'll stop concerning with my husband and the guy who has supported and loved me more than any other man except my father." It doesn't work like that. I just HATE to see her upset, so I just have to hunker down and stand up for myself for a change. It's always something in our life that provides an external negative force that doesn't make it cut and dry.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

The only thing that gives me pause is that maybe I should just tread water until after the baby is born and she is medically cleared to have sex...simply because I don't know if allowing the marriage to disintegrate (even if it's bound to do so anyway) while she is pregnant is the best thing. The timing on this is horrible.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That makes sense. I do think if you start the process of making her a lower priority NOW - and set some expectations NOW - you are giving her more time to decide what she wants. 

I also think you need to ask her to think about whether she is willing to be honest with you about her lack of desire for you. And that means not making up excuses for why day to day life leaves her with no desire. It really truly sounds like she does not respect you - which is why she does not respect your needs. And THAT is a monster you have created over the years so you need to be assertive for a while and see what happens. 

It seems like you feel overpowered by her - and would rather walk away then try to re-establish a power balance in your marriage. And I only say that because you are avoiding conflict with her now. It seems like at some very basic level she HAS emotionally overpowered you. Not good, but fixable if you are determined.




jgn2112fletch said:


> The only thing that gives me pause is that maybe I should just tread water until after the baby is born and she is medically cleared to have sex...simply because I don't know if allowing the marriage to disintegrate (even if it's bound to do so anyway) while she is pregnant is the best thing. The timing on this is horrible.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, I do think if I make her a lower priority and start putting myself first for a change, but still be respectful (e.g. not mean or ambivalent, just...realistic I guess), then hopefully over time she may begin to see that she's pushed me away. So when I break it to her that I need her to change and take care of me or it's over it won't come as such a shock. She can at least say to herself, "I think I saw this coming." Two things:
1. I can live with her abandoning me for our children. Seriously, I can. I just need her to take care of my sexual needs. Sound petty? Than you've misunderstood me. I can get through being shelved until our children grow up or grow older as long as she takes care of my sexual needs during that time
2. If we do divorce, I want it to be very amicable...no hostility. I think she would want that too...so I don't want to go out in a blaze of glory...I'd rather it be almost matter of fact. I think I can achieve this if I just begin to focus on myself and my well being for a change rather than going on doing everything she asks and then one day telling her that I'm stopping all that unless she takes care of me sexually and changes or it's over.


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

First off, I believe you are getting some great advice here and I agree with you that you do need to tread easily while she's pregnant. Also, have children is tough, twins much tougher, autistic twins - incredibly stressful. So, right there is alot of stress and responsibility for both of you. 

So, as a mom I can totally relate with being completely wrapped up in my kids and ignoring my H. Been there, done that. WHY? Because those kids are my everything. We tried 4 yrs to get my daughter and went through fertility h*ll and then she was born with a birth defect. She had lots of doctor visits, lots of uncertainity, hosptial stays, etc. SO lots of stress on a couple. She took priority. (BTW - she still has a condition but she's fine, smart, beautiful..) Then I didn't want her to be an only child and FOR ME my H agreed to fertility for #2. Miscarried and then had my son. Who ended up having colic (my H's fear for having a 2nd) So the story goes. We are both devoted to our children and love them dearly. However, he missed me, the fun/happy me before kids, not the stressed out, resentful me that I became. He wanted sex/affection I wanted him to quit "groping" me - I was busy, had things to do, etc. FIght, fight, fight. Our biggest mistake - is there wasn't an US. We never went on dates, my goodness we took our kids on our anniversary dinner!

SO, as you suggest that you are going to take time to spend with just her on Valentine's day. Will she not like it because she feels "guility" that she won't be devoting time to her kids? Do you think she harbors any guilt for your sons' condition? A mother's guilt can be very strong, even when it's not at all justified, and can envelope her. I just know that while by H and I were just "cohabitating" - I did miss having a marriage and affection, I did. But I was OKAY with it for my kids. As long as they were happy, that's all that mattered to me. My happiness didn't matter. I know that is wrong and I have moved past that and see the importance of my happiness as well as theirs. But what I am asking is do you think that's where she is at? She is probably exhausted with only so much energy and with the choice of giving it to her kids or to you, sorry she chooses them.

Others are right. When you are so devoted and loving and nice, she does take that for granted and why would she change? Again, as suggested I wouldn't be rude or angry or not help at all but start doing less so that she can see what it is like and how fortunate she is. Again, you need to be careful this next few months while she is pregnant.

The other thing is I would ask for affection before sex or sexual needs. (since she can't have sex) When it got to that point, I then got mad and pushed away farther when I thought he just wanted me for sex. Not understanding that sex to a man in not just that but how he shows affection to his wife and love. So, maybe ask for cuddling and hand holding and kissing, etc. Just a suggestion.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

mommy2, that was very good stuff. I think what you are/were going through and what my wife is feeling are very similar. I think my wife abhors affection as much as she does sex. I could be wrong, but a lot of what I've read before suggests reestablishing the emotional aspect before tackling the sexual. I don't think that'll work because she can't stand either. At a minimum, I would just like her to acknowledge that, although she doesn't like it, a good wife would see that sex is important to me and take care of that aspect out of respect for me. I think trying to recover the emotional side first, while understandable, would likely only compound things. I really do think the key is that if I'm put off on a day when basically everyone acknowledges they should be doing something for their spouse to just put it in her face that this shows a complete lack of respect toward me and a lack of sympathy for my needs, when I clearly do everything I can to meet hers. And then blow it off like its nothing...I'm phrasing this wrong, but what I'm getting at is to be more of the alpha male, don't wear my emotions on my sleeve, wave the BS flag and leave it. Not be rude or angry, don't start an argument. Just try to put it on her that she's the one who ruined Valentine's day.
I totally understand about how there is no "us." We can't just hire a babysitter and go out. It's extremely difficult to find soeone we trust to handle our boys. And, in typical mom fashion, she'll go out and do nothing but stress over the boys anyway. So there have been times I've felt date night was a waste.
Like I said, I'm OK with being shelved and abandoned while she devotes everything to our children, as long as she takes care of my sexual needs. If she doesn't do the latter, then I'm divorced already, so to speak, just not on paper. Were two divorced people who are still married. The worst of both worlds.


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

Then I think you're right to be more "alpha" without being rude/angry, etc. Still attentive to your boys and doing your share with them/housework, etc. but nothing extra. What others have suggested. Hopefully that will "shock" her enough to realize what she's denying you and how important it is to get it back. She may honestly not realize how bad it truly is,believe it or not. I now it sounds ridiculous but it can be true. My marriage was in a bad place, again cohabitants for the most part but again, I just accepted it and knew how much he adored our kids and just "assumed" he would always be there and put up with it. Not realizing how truly lonely and lacking affection he was. I learned the hard way, my H found affection elsewhere, with my good friend. 

SO, needless to say this horrible form of "SHOCK" therapy did just that - rocked my entire world and made me realize wholeheartedly that I loved my H more than anything and wanted to spend the rest of my life showing him in everyway. 

DON'T ever get to that point! But what I am saying is by just doing what others are suggesting, not being so "beta" may be just what she needs to see you mean what you say and are not putting up with it. You have desires and needs and love her and want her to fulfill them. COMMUNICATION is huge. Will she go to counseling with you? I think that would be great also. My H would never go, I asked often but fortunately (or unfortunately I guess) he agreed after his A and that was great for us. We have such a better line of communication now.

I wish you the best. You sound like a great guy, husband and father. I hope you are able to get your wife to understand your feelings and needs. I think it's important to your kids to have both their parents.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

I am about 99% sure she would not go to counseling. She has flat out told me before that if the marriage were at the point where we needed counseling, then it might as well be over, which I think is very cowardly. I also find it offensive because, to me, she tried harder to save her past relationships (both of which were with either an abusive manipulating liar/@$$hole, or a user who only used her to have sex with when he wasn't with his real girlfriend) than she would with us. And if she refuses counseling, I'm going to tell her just that. She also said that she feels like she had all her fun before marriage in college, and that she's probably just "sexed out." Again, I was crushed. Gee, thanks...so glad you had all your sex with guys who couldn't care less about you so that you can marry the man who loves you and promptly cut him/me off. It makes me very angry just typing it. Again, that will come up again too when appropriate. But to address your question again, I don't think she will go to counseling...or if she does, I know she won't get anything out of it because she won't commit to it...she'll just be thinking about anything else but what's at hand...the boys, the pregnancy, her mother (who just had a relapse of cancer). Between the pregnancy and her mother, it all just seems very cold-blooded to consider leaving her. But, and I don't say this to sound even more cold-blooded, it's always something. Always. The boys autism, money, pregnancy, her mother...what will it be next?
I think I just need to let this situation develop and as it does, handle it much differently than I've handled everything else with her.
My hat's off to you about staying with your H after he cheated. My wife has said if I cheated she'd be out the door. Again, it angers me because her other major relationships she put up with it left and right and did everything possible to "win them back" -- and yet with me, I feel as though she'd drop me in a minute. Ithink it'll be interesting to see how she handles it when I slowly drop the gauntlet.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I just HATE to see her upset, so I just have to hunker down and stand up for myself for a change. It's always something in our life that provides an external negative force that doesn't make it cut and dry.


Wrong. You LET her use these things as an EXCUSE to not have sex.

Question: when you do have sex, what do YOU do to ensure that she enjoys it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jgn2112fletch said:


> The only thing that gives me pause is that maybe I should just tread water until after the baby is born and she is medically cleared to have sex...simply because I don't know if allowing the marriage to disintegrate (even if it's bound to do so anyway) while she is pregnant is the best thing. The timing on this is horrible.


 You have been CONDITIONED to believe this. And you're too big of a wimp to question it.

Women who LIKE sex, have sex up until they give birth. May not be intercourse, but there's still sex going on. Hand job, oral, dry humping, there are MANY ways she can help YOU - if she wanted to.

The point is, she has been allowed to remove sex from her life because YOU have not pushed it. Time to take back what should be part of your marriage.

Again, I have to ask, what do YOU do to make HER look forward to sex? My H almost never has sex without wanting to please me first. Even if I approach him, he STILL tries to reciprocate, and I often tell him I don't need it. But he TRIES. My orgasms ALWAYS come first. What are you doing?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jgn2112fletch said:


> 1. I can live with her abandoning me for our children. Seriously, I can. I just need her to take care of my sexual needs. Sound petty? Than you've misunderstood me. I can get through being shelved until our children grow up or grow older as long as she takes care of my sexual needs during that time


The problem with this? She has just spent 20-30 years focusing on kids, and has aged, matured, changed (as have you). So what happens when the last kid graduates? She turns around, sees you're still in the house, and says 'who are you?'

I am a 2009 empty nester. I am here to tell you that it is horrific, to try to reconnect with a spouse you put on hold to focus on the kids, once the kids are gone. You have NO idea who that other person in the house is, and want to know WHY you want to even BE in the same house with them.

Please don't make that mistake. Once the kids are gone, she will NOT choose you. Except maybe for your money.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JGN,
You are rational and balanced about this. I give you a lot of credit for that because this is such a tense situation. I 100 percent agree that it is really UGLY for her to say:
- That she gave her best sex to guys who didn't love her/care for her like you have
- That she would not attend counseling. 

My experience reading these boards is that it is VERY common for the abusive spouse to aggressively refuse counseling. They KNOW what they are doing is wrong and do NOT want an objective 3rd party to call them on their bad behavior. 

I totally agree that in a healthy marriage the spouses take care of each others high priority needs. She is blowing you off - because she thinks she CAN. She thinks you will just suck it up. The best way to convince her otherwise is through mostly action with minimal words. 





jgn2112fletch said:


> I am about 99% sure she would not go to counseling. She has flat out told me before that if the marriage were at the point where we needed counseling, then it might as well be over, which I think is very cowardly. I also find it offensive because, to me, she tried harder to save her past relationships (both of which were with either an abusive manipulating liar/@$$hole, or a user who only used her to have sex with when he wasn't with his real girlfriend) than she would with us. And if she refuses counseling, I'm going to tell her just that. She also said that she feels like she had all her fun before marriage in college, and that she's probably just "sexed out." Again, I was crushed. Gee, thanks...so glad you had all your sex with guys who couldn't care less about you so that you can marry the man who loves you and promptly cut him/me off. It makes me very angry just typing it. Again, that will come up again too when appropriate. But to address your question again, I don't think she will go to counseling...or if she does, I know she won't get anything out of it because she won't commit to it...she'll just be thinking about anything else but what's at hand...the boys, the pregnancy, her mother (who just had a relapse of cancer). Between the pregnancy and her mother, it all just seems very cold-blooded to consider leaving her. But, and I don't say this to sound even more cold-blooded, it's always something. Always. The boys autism, money, pregnancy, her mother...what will it be next?
> I think I just need to let this situation develop and as it does, handle it much differently than I've handled everything else with her.
> My hat's off to you about staying with your H after he cheated. My wife has said if I cheated she'd be out the door. Again, it angers me because her other major relationships she put up with it left and right and did everything possible to "win them back" -- and yet with me, I feel as though she'd drop me in a minute. Ithink it'll be interesting to see how she handles it when I slowly drop the gauntlet.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Twin autistic kids are the biggest drain on her, also she is in the middle of a rough pregnancy where sex has been medically ruled out as an option as well. *Now is just not the time to attempt to start changing the sexual landscape.*

To be sure I see the OP doing things wrong and there is something that can be worked on in the future, but in my professional opinion as a Developmental Disabilities Nurse you need to;

1. Contact you States agency for Developmental Disablities for assistance with your autistic boys. There are likely respite options, home health help options or even group home placements possible. Seek help. Also many autistic boys become quite physically aggressive around age 12, so you very much need to get in contact now before you get in over your head and someone is injured.

2. Support her through this pregnancy.

Once those things are in place and resolved, you can work on getting laid more. A big part of being an adult male is following through on the results of sex. Namely the children.

After you are through the current crisis, I'll happily offer advice on how to game your wife. But not until then.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera, I think you have a very deep insight on this, but I don't think this relationship merits that degree of "severity" (for lack of a better word) yet. MEM and Atholk, I think you both are practically right on the money. MEM, you mentioned something I had not quite thought of...it was on the tip of my brain but just not quite there yet. And that is your observation that my wife probably says she won't attend counseling because she knows a 3rd party will "see it my way" and then she'll be defenseless...along with mentioning the fact that she tried harder to save her past relationships, and that she had all her fun/good sex in college with guys who couldn't give a rip about her, and then cut her husband off.
Atholk, I also think you are right...now isn't the best time. But seriously, I'm at my wits end and a lot of me says that I'm not choosing the timing (or any of this) but rather this is a product of her own making. We've been on contact with every agency regarding autism. My wife is a fierce warrior for our boys (we moved to VA specifically for them), so that isn't my concern really...she has that handled. I will support her through the pregnancy. But seriously, when the pregnancy is over and she's medically cleared for sex, I'm almost (figuratively) preparing for the gloves to come off. I simply cannot tolerate it any more. I've been a supportive husband and father. But like I said in an earlier post: when the anticipated pain of leaving my boys is eclipsed by the pain of staying with her, AND when my own mental health and stability are in more jeopardy with her (and the boys) than without her (and without the boys), then I'm gone. I simply do not deserve this. And if those two conditions are met, I cannot be a good father with her...the least worst option is to leave.
Like I said, I'm just going to let it develop the way it would anyway, except I'm planning on handling it very differently...thanks to everyone's advice.
I am also entitled to some free counseling (12 sessions) with my job...I'm going to take those up.
And finally, this is another consideration. I need to look into it with military lawyers, but my understanding is that if you've been married for 10 years or longer, then my wife would get half of my retirement...HALF (unless she gets remarried). F--- that. Later this year will be 9 years, so if I'm right about the retirement thing, I've got about 1 1/2 years. I absolutely will not seek to stiff her on child support/alimony, but seeing as how I will likely get the shaft in court since A) I'm a man; and B) I'm military and short-notice deployable (of which I have pulled many), I'm probably going to have minimal or scattered visitation with my sons. I would want a divorce to be as amicable as possible, but I'm preparing to be very poor if it comes to that...the last thing I want is for her to get HALF of my entire retirement.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

What are your boy's diagnoses? I can't fathom that she wanted another child if they are classic autism. I'm assuming they are Asperger's or PDDNOS?

My 7 year old is PDDNOS. We had our daughter before he was diagnosed.

I know your story. Lived it myself.

Given that you are on orders for no sex, now is a good time to revoke your doormat status and work on setting some boundaries - starting with yourself. Don't be an over-helper, and don't be a whiner. Women disdain this category of male to the same degree they get the hots for the aloof, selfish, bad-boy. 
If you keep waiting for her to acknowledge your good deeds and reward you with affection or sex, you're as good as done.

Change up. You have absolutely nothing to lose, and everything to gain.


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

deejo, you are echoing my sentments. My sons are PDD. And I've felt kinda liberated knowing I have (in a sense) nothing to lose and everything to gain by, as you say, revoking my doormat status. Like I said earlier, I'm not going to just jump into it...I'm going to let the situation evolve, like I know it will...the argument will come (likely on Valentines day) and when that next one comes, when I'm denied any "help" from her, I will handle it much differently than just getting upset and eventually letting her have the last word before we retire to different parts of the house for the rest of the day.
I'm seriously going to need to think about it though, since I'm going to have to kinda rewire how I think and act when getting into an argument.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ask her what she thinks she deserves in a marriage. Then ask her what she thinks you deserve in a marriage. Explain to her that testosterone literally demands that you have a stronger need (not want) for sex and that it is one of the key ingredients for a man in a marriage. Tell her most men simply can't stay in a sexless marriage, it is THAT important. See what she says to that.

Explain to her that you are providing HER needs, and that you expect the same show of love from her. But tell her that you know women have to have their needs met to want to have sex, and, if you're missing something that she's not getting from you so that she would feel loving enough to WANT to please you sexually, you certainly want to hear what it is.


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## Ctn594 (May 25, 2009)

jgn2112fletch

Your story is very similar to my situation. I've wrote a few topics of the situation last year on these forums so I don't want to go into great details about myself. I feel for you because living in this type of relationship is extremely difficult to do. It really takes the joy out life...

My wife is an unaffectionate person, who has flat out told me she would be just fine in life if she didn't have sex again. Hearing this really makes a man feel good. lol. So after months or years of threatening to leave, requesting we go to counseling (which she has declined), looking at message boards and reading relationship books. One book stood out more then the others and here is the link. 

Amazon.com: Women's Infidelity: Living In Limbo: What Women Really Mean When They Say "I'm Not Happy" (9780976772606): Michelle Langley: Books

I wish I had the PDF files of both books that were on my computer so I could send them to you for free, but they are long gone with my last hard drive.

By the way if you do decide to read the books it is tough to swallow what the author is trying to get across. It will give you a better understanding of inside the mind of a female and by you "always being there for her" trying your best is not what a woman is attracted to. 

My wife did see that I was reading these books and was really annoyed that I wasted money on them. She discounted everything the books were about, but I never would suspect her to be so upfront about our situation anyway.

Overall I have changed my approach with my wife. Before I always talked about always being together forever and being there for her when ever needed. Things you would "Think" woman or your wife would appreciate. To sum it up now I'm much more distant. Am I happy, not really, but not has miserable as before. Has my wife turned around a litle bit, yes she has. Maybe she feels that I'm not always going to be there for her so it maybe is a challenge for so she becomes more interested...


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

There have been a few books I've been looking into reading...and when I do, I don't plan on hiding it...I'll have to put that one on the list of ones to look into.


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## DeprivedWife (Sep 9, 2010)

Jgn-

I just wanted you to know that I am on your side. I am a mother and wife that has been married for 17 years. I could have written your story myself!!. 

I want out too, but I stay because of my kids. The hardest part for me is that I get more looks and attention from others than I do from the man in my own house. 

I'm scared to leave and I'm scared to stay.

Your not alone-


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I think this would be a great book for you or anyone torn in this type of marraige situation to read :

Amazon.com: Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship (9780452275355): Mira Kirshenbaum: Books


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