# Just a short argument just then...



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

So, with all my thoughts boiling up in my head with the missus rather clueless about me being distant recently... it finally exploded in our faces on my little trip downstairs to stock up my beer fridge before bed. I was kinda shocked really because all I did was thought I'd ask her where she thought we were at as a couple. She didn't answer at first, then smiled and it was obvious she's pulling another ST. So I decided to poke a little, and was rather surprised it didn't take much as it seems she was itching to have it all out too as we've been quite distant.

She's been unhappy with how I haven't been talking to her much recently, and that she feels we're being roommates. So I told her the truth, that I needed some time for personal self-reflection and she yelled at me, telling me that my "self-reflection = thinking too much = making up issues that aren't there". Guess she's kinda used to my rollercoaster to the point she knows how to prevent it when she really doesn't want it to go down. When I told her that there are indeed serious issues that I have with my myself she told me "see? that's what I'm talking about! We're roommates! You're not talking to me!" Then she said she doesn't want to argue and if I want to tell her fine but if not I shouldn't ask her "such stupid and obvious questions".

I got offended and I was going to tell her how innocent my question was but then I realised she got me cornered on that one. I told her that I doubt she'll ever understand, then she asked me when she has ever judged me when I've been honest with her. I brought up the threads I printed out for her in the past which got her into a knot. Oh hell I never seen her so p-ssed for a long time as she came up to me, grabbed me then yelled at me that what p-ssed her off the most is how I didn't talk to her about it, not that I had those thoughts. She woke up our daughter however, and probably the neighbours too. She then calmly told me that if I think that our marriage is going to work with me avoiding her and talking to my IC or this forum then I'm sadly mistaken.

Meh, been sleeping in my man-cave anyways. Oh well...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Check
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

two people both trying to win an unwinnable argument. both are right in their own minds and both see the only solution as major changes in the other. i am there also, in my marriage. thats why i dont even discuss things with my wife anymore. we have had these types of discussions before, nothing but temporary relief comes of them, in the long term, things stay the same.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Sorry, dude. But I've been getting the same arguement.
I agree with the thought that as long as I resolve my 'issue' somehow, it should not matter if it's with my spouse or an outside source. My husband has the same issue your wife does. It should be THEM that you turn to.

My only comeback? My spouse isn't "qualified" to help with the issue.

Compromise? Tell your spouse what the issue is, and you are seeking experienced advice to solve the issue. Which is what you should do. Don't avoid her, keep her in the loop, but I think the important thing is that you are trying to work out what you are struggling with. Isn't it?

There can be a huge rebellion if you take your marriage issues outside the marriage. But I think this forum is better than blabbing to family. There is a non-bias base to bounce off of.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I think her head will explode once she learns that my issues are even deeper that even I ever believed.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Why not share just how deep your issues are with her?

It's almost like you're sabotaging your marriage on purpose!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Why not share just how deep your issues are with her?


If I just tell her that my issues are deep yet not talk to her about them she's going to annoy me left right and center until I do.



> It's almost like you're sabotaging your marriage on purpose!


 Wifey also thinks that my "self-reflection = dumbass self-inflicted marital sabotage"... yet this time, it's self-reflection in RESPONSE to my dumbass self-inflicted marital sabotage.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Exactly. So tell her what your issues are. Instead of sying "I have deep issues" and then not discussing it. That is counter-productive.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Cause it's beyond her abilities to help me and it's not her place to share the burden even if she wants to.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You won't let it be her place/you won't let her in/you won't let her share in your pain.

That's wrong, man. She is your WIFE. Not an outsider.

RD, get some individual counselling. It sounds like you could use it. It also sounds like you are depressed. And there is a lot of self-loathing that comes off in your posts.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

If she was anything like who she used to be, that bastion of strength that I fell in love with, in this position I would, but right now she's a dependent, weak and vulnerable woman who simply won't be able to handle it.

And yes I'm taking IC


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Cause it's beyond her abilities to help me and it's not her place to share the burden even if she wants to.


Yes it is her place to share the burden and by virtue of being married, it is your responsibility to share with her. She can certainly help by listening and not recognizing this is belittling


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> right now she's a dependent, weak and vulnerable woman who simply won't be able to handle it.


This is a disrespectful judgement


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Yes it is her place to share the burden and by virtue of being married, it is your responsibility to share with her. She can certainly help by listening and not recognizing this is belittling


Well by telling her it's one way to sabotage the marriage even more I guess. heh
But on a serious note, I don't trust that it will help.



> This is a disrespectful judgement


That's because I compare her to who she used to be. But yes... meh... it's rather harsh of me to speak of her that way. Ironically if anyone else but me said that to my face about my wife I would have beaten them to a pulp, maybe I should just beat myself to a pulp.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> If I just tell her that my issues are deep yet not talk to her about them she's going to annoy me left right and center until I do.
> 
> Wifey also thinks that my "self-reflection = dumbass self-inflicted marital sabotage"... yet this time, it's self-reflection in RESPONSE to my dumbass self-inflicted marital sabotage.


Random you said that as a boy you were compassionate and empathetic but in response to your environment, you had to wall that off. 

Did you know that the capacity for empathy is a characteristic that does not change much in adulthood. A person has it or they don't those that don't can learn how even if they don't feel it. Those that have the compassionate temperament can supress it. 

Is it possible that the boy you were is still there but he has not learned that he is safe now. He does not have to fight anymore, there is someone to look out for him and protect him - the grown up you. Could you sabbatage your close relationships because 1. You expect to be hurt so you hurt others first and distance yourself. 2. As a survival adaptation you identified with the people who victimized that vulnerable boy. So when you start to feel closeness you punish your self like the you were tormented as a child. 

You are strong now and can protect that boy and let him feel the love he needs. 

I you met a child now who was 12 yrs old and abandoned and needed a protector, what would you do? If your answer is that you would go to his aid then aid the boy in you. 

I think that you have a tremendous capacity for growth. You prevailed against tremendous odds. If you can reconnect to that boy and protect him instead of hating him, you can teach others how. Instead of wasting your talents on crushing the spirit of vulnerable women put it to use for good. You can lead all of the people who have been told there authentic self is just not good enough. Those people who identify with the enemy and destroy themselves. Your people?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Random you said that as a boy you were compassionate and empathetic but in response to your environment, you had to wall that off.
> 
> Did you know that the capacity for empathy is a characteristic that does not change much in adulthood. A person has it or they don't those that don't can learn how even if they don't feel it. Those that have the compassionate temperament can supress it.


Yes I already learnt that from experience, which is a problem because I learnt it the wrong way it seems. I learnt only how to harness and use it for my own benefit. I never knew that it's already a "science".



> Is it possible that the boy you were is still there but he has not learned that he is safe now. He does not have to fight anymore, there is someone to look out for him and protect him - the grown up you. Could you sabbatage your close relationships because 1. You expect to be hurt so you hurt others first and distance yourself. 2. As a survival adaptation you identified with the people who victimized that vulnerable boy. So when you start to feel closeness you punish your self like the you were tormented as a child.


I never feel safe, my counsellor told me that a child that grows up normally has a mother during their youth to cuddle him/her when they cry, and whisper that everything is going to be alright. Combine not having that, but instead having something else rather f--ked up in place of that... combine that with childhood traumas it's f--ked up my head.

As for not fighting anymore that's another problem, when I left the streets behind I taught, "oh hey, new world"... made myself foolishly believe that I was in heaven... no more looking over my shoulder, no more sleepness nights, no more fights... heh I was mistaken.



> You are strong now and can protect that boy and let him feel the love he needs.
> 
> I you met a child now who was 12 yrs old and abandoned and needed a protector, what would you do? If your answer is that you would go to his aid then aid the boy in you.


Can't protect that boy by letting him out again. Besides he's buried like my past, I took what I wanted from him and left him buried... or so I thought. I also have a trust issue with my wife, considering in the past she was rather unempathetic by allowing my mother-in-law to our daughter's bday then using her church in an attempt to forcibly convert me... pffft... she proved to me that not only no longer that strong woman who I fell in love with, but that angel who showed me there was another way.

I never believe what anyone simply says, NEVER. If it's unimportant I just go meh... whatever, I don't care what one wants others to believe. But when it is important, and then I trust only myself, my instincts, my empathy, and prior experience. If I get betrayed, I have only myself to blame. Like the "good o days" in my youth, it was all my fault. If I didn't take responsibility of it, I would have made the same mistakes again.



> I think that you have a tremendous capacity for growth. You prevailed against tremendous odds. If you can reconnect to that boy and protect him instead of hating him, you can teach others how. Instead of wasting your talents on crushing the spirit of vulnerable women put it to use for good. You can lead all of the people who have been told there authentic self is just not good enough. Those people who identify with the enemy and destroy themselves. Your people?


My people are a seperate issue, and unrelated to this. It's kinda sad that I admit this right now but... deep inside I really, really, REALLY want someone to convince me logically to get "big bad RD" to let "nice RD" out. Deep inside I want to love my wife, and to spoil her. She noticed this when we go on holidays, I let myself go, I stop myself thinking, she ends up rather dazed. Then back to reality... "big bad RD" is back.

Oh hey, I'm schizo :rofl: ! Or was it bipolar?
I can't take the leap of faith... "big bad RD" needs to be convinced. Right now though, it seems even "big bad RD" has a soft spot... my daughter. What mindfulcoach posted I knew it was coming but I had to hear it... hell it's almost like "nice RD" is also trying to convince "big bad RD" to stop being such a harda$$...


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Turns out wifey has been crying... great =/

Oh hell think I'm just going to tell her a few details so she understand a little bit if not everything, bleh


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You cannot let the 12 yo boy out, it is not safe for him but you can coexist , protect, comfort accept and love him. You are the buffer to the outside world just like you are for your little girl. 

a trick that my therapist suggested I try. My inner girl is 15 yo girl that was horribly betrayed but I have learned to coexist with her and comfort her when her fears and rage are triggered.. My therapist suggested I treat her the way I would if I met a girl like me at 15 in real life. I would not shame and hate her, so I don't do that to my girl. 

The memories of all of the pain of childhood does not go away, ever. What I have done is to put them in a mental filling cabinet and I don't open it unless I want to examine a small part. Otherwise, the info is not scattered through my head. 

You are mistaken if you think any adult, even those who come from good homes, can approach the world without armor and knowledge of basic human nature. It is naively of youth that gets battered and teaches us all caution. You can never trust without verification. Trust is conditional on the worthiness of the person you give your trust to. A person has to earn your trust. It is fluid though you can withdraw it if the person betrays you. 

Trust is also tierded.. I think of it as layers covering my inner core.. Some people get past the surface layers only some deeper, very few people get to touch my inner core. My children, my mother and brother. My husband is one layer out. Not because he has proven unworthy but his worthiness is conditional. Those are based how attractive i remain to him. If he loses that attraction as men do he will betray me. That is not his fault but the nature of the relationship betwen men and women. My mother and kids love for me is not based on what i look like but who i am at my core. 

I think love in a long-term relationship is a journey through the layers. . It takes yrs of going through shared experiences before you really get to know what the person is really all about. I think your wife was always insecure and needed to be cared for based on her life history. She hid behind a brave face in her youth because that is what she needed. You hid things from her as well so you should understand her hiding. 

She is not what you thought but no one really is. She is the opisite of what you wanted but did you really want a strong woman who stood on her own? On some level you knew she was not strong. She has been wounded too. She, unlike you has opened herself to you and placed her trust in you to love her as she is. 

She is crying because you are rejecting her very core and that is extremely painful after opening up. She probably realizes her mistake, she probably thought that she finally found a man who would offer her a place of love whom she could lean on and be protected and cherished. She is probably as disappointed as you are that you are not that man. Strangely enough, we often marry people that make us face our core issues from childhood in an attempt to resolve them. You wife may represent several important people in your life perhaps your mother, your needy inner child and any other important female. 

You have a chance to face your issues and resolve them by the degree with which you can gerorously give to your wife what she needs even though you did not get the same thing when you needed protection. Giving to her is giving to yourself and doing what your mother did not do, love you and meet your needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I see what you mean but I'm having trouble wrapping that around my head. Even thinking about who I was makes me feel disgusted, there's a lot of hate still there. I justify his existence by his usefulness. It seems it's a troubled co-existence. I guess if my wife never betrayed my trust when she disrespected my authority or tried to use her church against me I wouldn't have my guard up so high.

And yes, that's the way I see trust. As for my wife when I first met her I guess her insecurity was countered very strongly by her faith that God loves her. Without it though, she doesn't seem to have found a non-religious way to deal with her problems or her past. It seems much of her past is also not dealt with considering she places a lot of her own personal worth on her sexuality and attractiveness.

As for putting on a brave face... well I guess I taught her that. From day one I guess I've always drilled it into her what I liked. And I guess I do reject her inner core. Anyways I've talked to her briefly about it but she was very insistent on details and apparently felt hurt that I didn't trust her enough to tell her.

She brought up all sorts of possible reasons wondering why I'm not talking to her about it, from my possible cheating to my personal space to the sex to this forum. Can't seem to get it into her head that my problems are internal nothing to do with anyone and then she asked what she has to do to make me open up. She complained that she never feels good enough for me, that she gives me sex, yet I push her away, that she takes care of the house, cooks me meals, takes our daughter out. When I told her I just wanted my space, she accused me of just pushing her away.

I knew we were about to have it all out but I'm not in the mood for it tonight and she yelled at me telling me not to walk away from her. I told her I don't take orders from her, and that I've told her how I felt but she is refusing to listen and respect my space. Told her to think about it. Meh...


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Random Dude, I just read this thread, I don't even know you, but the way you come across even irritated the h%ll out of me ;~) There must some of you issues that you could talk about with her that would be enough to get her off you back. What she's really thinking is " Is it me?", "he's hurting me and I don't know why"... Tell her something, or are you really just trying to sabotage your ownmarriage by making her leave?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Why do I irritate you so? Is it just because I'm an a$$? 

Meh, I'll tell her when I'm ready for spend a few hours discussing it with her, allows me the time to deal with her possible "OMG OMG OMGs" and all that.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

RD it sounds to me like you are mind fecking your wife. Because you are here asking questions it’s likely that you are doing it subconsciously. At least you deserve the benefit of the doubt.

But. As to whether you do it consciously or subconsciously I feel truly sorry for your wife and I don’t even know her. For me my empathy and compassion is with your wife, it is not at all with you, although I have some sympathy for you because you seem “stuck” and unable to move forward.

Whatever you do stop playing damaging mind games with your wife, stop messing with her mind, emotions and affections. You owe her that at the very least.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

As guilty as I am of mind f--king her in the past, I'm not mind f--king with her right now, though she probably thinks I am because of the past mind f--ks. I'm trying to deal with it by myself so I won't end up mind-f--king her but she thinks I'm mind-f--king her by dealing with it by myself.

Does that make sense? Meh...


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Without reading the replies, I guess I can understand how your wife feels. Too much so. It seems you may spend more time sharing your thoughts with us here, as opposed to really talking to her and sharing with her...

I can agree she probably didn't have the best reaction after letting things build up for so long...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Talking to a forum I can get away with it, talking to my wife I can't. Besides I don't want her to know how f--ked up I still am deep inside, might even scare the living bejesus outta her considering she knows of my youth, and realising I've reopened "pandora's box" to deal with myself.

Time to scream and hide! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Oh well, that's one way to get her to leave me alone  . Congratulations gorgeous, you have married the bogeyman!


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Has your wife ever gone to counseling to learn effective ways of dealing with you?

Telling her how you feel is your responsibility. How to deal with it is hers...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm the one in counselling, she feels I'm the one in the wrong and also likes to turn our MCs against me and me being the one in counselling seems to have given her impression "he's the one who needs help that's why he's in counselling and I'm not" :scratchhead: 

She hasn't said that but I can feel it. Nothing slips past me, probably the only reason I can handle her manipulative tendencies.

She's also much more sociable then me, knows how to pick select words while for me I'm very "in-your-face" type of guy when it comes to serious stuff. Kinda explains why I proclaim to others "yes I know I'm an a$$hole" while for her she defends herself and people believe her and ironically, believe me too lol


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Talking to a forum I can get away with it, talking to my wife I can't. Besides I don't want her to know how f--ked up I still am deep inside, might even scare the living bejesus outta her considering she knows of my youth, and realising I've reopened "pandora's box" to deal with myself.
> 
> Time to scream and hide! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Oh well, that's one way to get her to leave me alone  . Congratulations gorgeous, you have married the bogeyman!


I told my wife about all the crap in my life before we were married, then she knew what she was dealing with and it was seldom an issue afterward. Find the least awful sh*& and spoon feed it out a bit at a time, then maybe she'll ease off.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I reckon you’ve lost your personal credibility and integrity as far as your wife is concerned. Sometimes it’s not until we lose something that we realise its deep and significant importance. But with credibility and integrity while it can take a long time to build and establish can be lost in but the blink of an eye.

If your wife cannot believe a word you say then it’ll take you a long time to re-establish your credibility and integrity. If indeed that is what you want to do. If you do you start by saying something like “From this moment on I will tell you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”.

Marriages NEED that truth. And it sounds to me like your wife is deserving of it. But are you Man enough to give it to her?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I did, and it seems she considers that "leaving her hanging"

@AFEH

I don't think this is an issue with honesty as I didn't lie to her. But yes she has indeed recognised my pattern of being a marital-saboteur, or "thinking too much". Yet my reasons for being a sabotuer/starting fights are many, which I have identified through self-reflection and discussing it. Main ones are:

- Despising vulnerability, due to my past and my youth
- Lingering loyalty to my people, having married a foreigner
- Her extremely high maintenance, sometimes I just need a break
- I love a challenge, and I wish she plays a little harder to get

3.5/4 she already knows about.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

It would seem from RD's first post that when he tried to talk to his wife she pretty much attacked him. I'm not seeing how all the weight is on him to set himself AND his wife straight on this. Their relationship is quite volatile in many ways. I'm thinking that perhaps she's a big part of the issues he's working through . . .or at the very least, she could only exacerbate the issues by turing to her. (as would be the case in my own marraige - maybe I'm just projecting). If someone told me to not ask "such stupid and obvious questions" - I would not be inclined to divulge a whole lot more.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Yes, I get the feeling too that even if I do open my heart to her she's just going to go "STOP THINKING SO MUCH!" Meh... or she would just run with her tail between her legs, one or the other.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

So . . . "shut up and tell me what you're thinking . . . and make sure it's something I want to hear " ??


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Hahah pretty much, as I mentioned before in the past she went bonkers after I forfilled my part of our little deal by printing out my threads that I wrote on this forum. 

Thread here (our little deal):
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/31636-wifey-closing-kill.html

Thread here (when she went bonkers):
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/34020-great-fight.html

Though she justifies her aggression by telling me "it's because you didn't talk to me about it" which yes I can understand her somewhat in that, but I know she's also denying the fact that knowing my thoughts does hurt her.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Playing mind games is deceitful. Deceit is lying!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Yet she already knows the truth, yet refuses to let me deal with this one problem on my own, even after her realising that I do acknowledge that my empathy and ability can be used 2 ways, to spoil her, or to send her to hell.

She knows mind games very well though herself... I still remember we even discussed our mind games in the past, and even worked as a team to mind f--k OTHERS for our own amusement or to defend our relationship. It's obvious we've both turned our weapons against each other as soon as we ran out of people to fight together against. Meh...

Still, as much that she has the potential to understand, her reaction our last fight has got me very wary.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

You’re getting something out of it all. Thing is what are you getting out of it? People do what the enjoy doing and avoid what they don’t enjoy doing. So you are doing what you do because you enjoy it. Otherwise you wouldn’t do it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

That's like saying a man who goes to counselling to fix himself is doing it because he enjoys it. =/

Reminds me of another saying which to me is a logical fallacy "People don't trust people, don't trust themselves". To me it's like saying "People who lock their doors at night, are burglars themselves"


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## bellamaxjoy (Oct 27, 2011)

We can use excuses for bad behaviour, but they are still excuses. your wife is your partner, and if you want that partnership to continue, then you need to deal with your problems, and MOVE ON. You are being cruel to your wife in my opinion, she wants to help- and you just dont let her in. I have3 no idea what your issue is, but there comes a time that you have to deal with it, and stop using is as an excuse for bad behaviour.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Only bad behaviour at this point is not letting her in to help me deal with my bad behaviour. It's more deep then she can handle and all I ask is just some patience.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Take volatility out of the equation and I honestly think your entire relationship changes ... and not necessarily for the better.

You need to deal with what you need to deal with.

Tell her you love her. Tell her you trust her, but you need to figure this out on your own. It isn't hers, and you don't want it to become hers.

I am very familiar with "You never talk to me ..." and then when you do, you get "Shut up! WTF are you talking about?"

There is a difference between deceit and disclosure.

I don't think deceit is ever going to help a relationship.

But ... I believe there are times when absolute disclosure could be equally damaging, and unnecessary.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

^ Aye, think I've told her enough... for now.

Meh, going to sleep for a few hours then give my IC a call.


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