# " Good Men " and the " Knight in Shining Armor " syndrome...



## Caribbean Man

...aka the " _White Knight_."

Anyone knows what I'm talking about?
Ladies , have you ever seen one?
Men ,do you know what defines one?

Recently I was on another thread and I mentioned the term. A new member / " registered user" PMed me and asked to help define it for her, because her husband fell into a situation similar to what I was describing in the thread.

[BTW, _welcome to TAM new member, hope you find solutions to your problems here!_]

The " white knight " syndrome is a problem that seems to plague men. It's the idea that certain types of men have where they feel a compulsion to ' help" people , most times women who present themselves as, or whom they view as " _damsels in distress_."

Absolutely nothing is wrong with helping people who _want to be helped_,but the problem with the white knight is the motive behind his compulsive drive to " help" people.

His motives usually comes from a place of low self esteem , where he constantly yearns for external validation. In other words, deep down inside , he doesn't think he's a good person and people like him for who he is , so he constantly seeks out people who are broken or _damsels in distress_ to help "fix" them, they shower him with praise and he feels validated.

The problem with this is that there are also broken women who seek out white knights , and they milk him for all he's worth.

I have seen quite a few relationships wrecked by women who use white knights.

If he's married or in a committed relationship, the problem becomes ten times worse because his poor wife is trying to reason with him and he begins to project his insecurity on to her ,telling her that she's acting jealous and insecure ,driving a wedge between them.
She begins to question her sanity, even though her gut tells her that little Mrs " _damsel in distress / hottie_ " next door or on his work is poaching on her marital territory,whilst he's like a zombie ,entering into affair territory , yearning for some extra external validation.

I have a lot of empathy for "White Knights". I was almost there myself. I think they should take some time for self-reflection and *save themselves*. It's admirable to want to "step up to the plate" and sometimes "White Knights" really can end up rescuing an appreciative woman . But I would caution anyone who feels the need to "rescue" to step back, take a deep breath, and take stock. *You can't save anyone who doesn't want to save themselves. *
Stop fooling yourself. Being a "White Knight" is a thankless job that will get you nowhere, and it will put your marriage in serious trouble.

So how could a man recognize and deal with the white knight tendencies he may have in himself?

1] Know that you are a good man and stop depending on strange women outside of your marriage for validation. Work on building a healthy self esteem.You are a good man,not because other women say so, but because you respect yourself, your wife, provide for your family ,love your kids and are a responsible citizen.

2]Listen to your wife, even though sometimes she might seem a bit insecure about the relationship, your first duty is to make her feel secure. Helping other women is incidental to you being a good husband and man .

3]Your wife is your team mate, treat her opinions as such.If you must help a damsel in distress, then logically , you would need your team mate's input.

4]Be honest with yourself. Recognize your boundaries, limitations and weaknesses. Nothing is wrong with going out of your way to help a damsel in distress, but it is morally reprehensible to pretend you're trying to help another woman when your wife at home is unhappy and needs your urgent attention.

5] Did I mention LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE?

This is just a little synopsis of the knight In shining Armor syndrome, and the root causes of it.
But there is much more and ,
Your inputs are welcome.

Feel free to post your thoughts and experiences.


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## john117

The argument about helping people in distress has a few flaws. I enjoy helping people mostly because that means doing things instead of sitting idle. This in my case is due to ADHD that has gone untreated since birth 

It's also cultural and influenced by stereotypes and childhood paradigms. The way "nice guys" are portrayed by pop psychology is basically like dads on TV sitcoms. 

Being nice is often free, and can lead to interesting behaviors to the recipients of nicety. Some may call it manipulation, and maybe it is. But is acting like a "self assured alpha male" all that better? I'm sure some think it is. 

There are many ways to "skin this cat" (spare me the comments about cats, I get more cat pictures emailed to me than I know what to do with them). 

What is important is authenticity. Do you help the little old lady across the street to take her choice parking spot? Do you help the damsel in distress then ask her out?

Pop psychology assumes validation and other ulterior motives as the main drivers, I'm thinking the more authentic people would beg to disagree...

Whether helping a damsel in distress vs wife in distress is in question, the person with the higher emotional investment wins. If wifey is not invested in the marriage, there's no point doing more for her vs doing them for someone who would appreciate it at least. That's reality, not manipulation.


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## jld

Isn't this like the Nice Guy syndrome? Doing nice things only if you get a reward for it?

I agree with you, CM, being helpful to people, even when you are not looking for any kind of reward, should not come at the expense of your own family.


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## FormerSelf

I have known a few White Knights in my days. My best friend I would say was one...and got burned lots of times by abusive women. His current wife, however, is wonderful and I think played a part in balancing him out. He had a very abusive step-father that would ridicule and cut him down constantly...just tried to emasculate my friend. But my friend was always good-hearted...and always got back up on his feet...but life just primed him to seek relationships where he was the rescuer of broken women who later ruined him.


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## 12345Person

There are a lot more women who are like this, I'm not sure why this "syndrome" is fixated on men.

"white knight" syndrome

or

"mother teresa" syndrome


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## FormerSelf

John C. Reilly's character in Magnolia, I'd say, is the perfect example of a White Knight.


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## Ms. GP

Healthy women don't turn to other women's husbands for emotional support. They turn to their female friends, and if they don't have any that is a big red flag! The "wounded bird routine" is one of the oldest tricks in the book.


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## sinnister

12345Person said:


> There are a lot more women who are like this, I'm not sure why this "syndrome" is fixated on men.
> 
> "white knight" syndrome
> 
> or
> 
> "mother teresa" syndrome


I think there is merit to discussing this problem in the context of men because of long standing social structures that call for men to be sources of strength and to help a woman in need. The reverse is not necessarily true, although there's probably a similar construct that identifies women who have a need to nurture immature men to help them develop into adult men.

I think this discussion benefits from a desperation of the sexes since many white knights end up on these forums asking what the heck went wrong.


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## Openminded

Thirty years ago I warned my now ex-husband that he was playing White Knight to the Damsel in Distress act one of his employees had going on. I told him she was targeting him. Naturally, he didn't believe me. 

He had a PA with her while we lived there. And an EA with her after he was transferred. All the time telling me he wasn't in contact with her. I can't prove the EA was going on for those 30 years but I strongly suspect it was -- at least off and on when she needed financial help. 

My ex-husband is a typical White Knight. Hopefully, his new wife can keep that under control better than I did.


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## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> I have a lot of empathy for "White Knights". I was almost there myself. I think they should take some time for self-reflection and *save themselves*. * It's admirable to want to "step up to the plate" and sometimes "White Knights" really can end up rescuing an appreciative woman .* But I would caution anyone who feels the need to "rescue" to step back, take a deep breath, and take stock. *You can't save anyone who doesn't want to save themselves. *


I'm happy you allowed for this sentence in your opening post...as you well know I used these expressions in Our story thread >>



> *Simplyamorous said*: I think it fits I was pretty much a "*Damsel in Distress*" back then....and he my *White Knight *....who found me at age 15...
> 
> ....
> 
> *Because of HIS presence in my life*...I started feeling the world was a beautiful place again ... it held promise...not everyone was a dysfunctional wreck... that dreams CAN come true....we both seemed to fulfill something in each other... the yin & the yang...My husband has ALWAYS been that ROCK for me...


 ...he came from the Good Family... yet had his issues with school bullies in his earlier yrs (not so great for the self esteem) ....and I was a bit of a Damsel in Distress with my home life at the time, wanting out of there in the worst way..... though I cared very much to save myself and not abuse the goodness that walked into my life.. 



> _Originally Posted by *Caribbean Man*_
> 1] Know that you are a good man and stop depending on strange women outside of your marriage for validation. Work on building a healthy self esteem.You are a good man,not because other women say so, but because you respect yourself, your wife, provide for your family ,love your kids and are a responsible citizen.
> 
> 2]Listen to your wife, even though sometimes she might seem a bit insecure about the relationship, your first duty is to make her feel secure. Helping other women is incidental to you being a good husband and man .
> 
> 3]Your wife is your team mate, treat her opinions as such.If you must help a damsel in distress, then logically , you would need your team mate's input.
> 
> 4]Be honest with yourself. Recognize your boundaries, limitations and weaknesses. Nothing is wrong with going out of your way to help a damsel in distress, but it is morally reprehensible to pretend you're trying to help another woman when your wife at home is unhappy and needs your urgent attention.
> 
> 5] Did I mention LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE?
> 
> This is just a little synopsis of the knight In shining Armor syndrome, and the root causes of it.


I am sure you have read up on this syndrome more than myself... I didn't realize that White Knights want to do this for a VARIETY of women... Nope, that's news to me.... Husband never had this affliction !! .... I mean , if his Mom or sisters needed something, he would Do what he could to help them....outside of this ...or someone outright asking for his help... he would not be offering.... Family has always came 1st.


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## Wolf1974

This is exactly what I did. Tried to rescue a damsel in distress and ended up with a distressed damsel. Won't make that mistake ever again.

This is a real thing. And to be fair it has roots in a selfish need to please. I am most comfortable supporting, Caring for, protecting, and so on....... Much more than I am receiving. When younger I didn't know the personal gratification I would get from being the "hero" and subconsciously the more messed up and fixable I thought they were the more I wanted to help them. It gave me peace and felt good. A very silly way to live unless it is returned and I haven't seen that yet. And women don't seem to appreciate that type of attitude in men anymore anyway


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## sparkyjim

jld beat me to it. I was going to bring up the Nice Guy Syndrome ...

What was it called...? Covert contracts?

The nice guy who tries to save the damsel in distress is doing it out of a selfish need to be exalted. He needs the drama in his life of trying to save someone as he defines salvation.

When he learns how to be a real man then he learns that damsels are often just a distraction from what he really desires, and he can break the attraction that he has for them.

Often the "damsel" is just a manipulative person. Often she is just using him for her own gain.


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## soccermom2three

I'm wondering if this was the case in my dad's affair. The OW was a single mom of an eight year old, trying to make ends meet. I'm sure she worked on him for a long time to rope him in, (i'm not excusing my dad's behavior at all). Who knows how much money he funneled to her from his business.

Last fall my husband coached my son's soccer team. There was one boy on the team where the parent's were divorcing. My husband comes home from practice one day and tells me, "B's mom let me know that she got a restraining order against Dad. He's not allowed near the wife or kids, so if I see him at the park, I have to let her know." But then he continues to go on and on telling me all this information that the mom told him. Stuff he really doesn't need to know at all It's none of his business. This goes on for a while and finally I say, "Why is she telling you all of this?" Him: "I don't know". Me: "You don't think it's weird?" I told him it was inappropriate.

Now, most likely this mom had a case of verbal diarrhea and meant nothing evil, (lol) but if my husband didn't have excellent boundaries, (he really does), and he was KISA, this sets him up to to ask her how she is or how he can help every time he sees her at practices and games. I guess what I'm saying is that it gets conversations going that wouldn't normally be happening if the OW wasn't over-sharing and the man isn't a KISA.


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## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> ..and I was a bit of a Damsel in Distress with my home life at the time, wanting out of there in the worst way..... though I cared very much to save myself and not abuse the goodness that walked into my life..


I can certainly relate to this. My life was all messed up when I met dh. He gave me direction and security. I was really grateful, and still am.

Man gets the wife he wants, woman appreciates the opportunity. I don't see any problem with this.


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## ScarletBegonias

My ex is the KISA.Not the emotional kind though.He doesn't want to rescue you if you have emotional baggage and need help. He only wants to rescue you if it's something he can handle...like money problems. His current partner is fulfilling all his KISA needs

DH is a good man.He's not a "good man"


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## EasyPartner

Reading the female imput on this thread, it looks like:

- it's very much OK for a man to be a white knight;

- whilst only displaying this quality to his own wife.


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## Ms. GP

I think a lot of KISA and "nice guys" are really just codependents in disguise. Codependents can't function in a relationship with a woman that doesn't constantly "need" them. They feel unappreciated with a self sufficient woman. All of their insecurities come out. They are the guys constantly asking, "what's wrong? What are you thinking? What are you looking at? Who are you talking too? What are you doing?" Then they progress to insults just to bring their partner down to the level of their own feelings about themselves. Eventually the poor woman gets worn out and gets out, and the guy moves on to a woman he can "fix" and feel good about himself for a minute.

Nice guy is just a title some men give themselves to feel better about their own dysfunction because they refuse to see their part in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan

sparkyjim said:


> What was it called...? Covert contracts?
> 
> The nice guy who tries to save the damsel in distress is doing it out of a selfish need to be exalted. He needs the drama in his life of trying to save someone as he defines salvation.


This was my experience with my ex-husband. He needed to save damsels in distress, as an emotional prop for himself. It didn't matter to him if their distress was obviously a direct result of their own poor choices, or if they were actually victims of someone else's bad behavior. As long as they were - or seemed to be, as he was apparently 100% blind to even overt manipulation by women - needy and helpless, he was all in. But he definitely needed his damsels to be grateful in the way he wanted, and he needed the distress to last. His attention drifted quickly to the next damsel at the first sign that the current one had emotional needs other than the ones thought she should, or that she might no longer be in need of his rescue. 

I'm not sure if it's typical of KISA guys, but his need for his women to be needy also led him to be somewhat emotionally abusive. I do not believe it was a consciously thought-out manipulation on his part, and I'm not sure he was ever able to see it in himself. But you can't have your damsel growing a backbone, finding inner strength or having too much self-respect. He had a vested interest in helping me cultivate and maintain anxiety and low self-esteem. He was doing me a huge favor by lifting me out of my pitiful existence and loving me - and I'd better never forget it!


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## Ms. GP

I completely relate Rowan. Oh, and you left off, "you better not tell me my behavior is unacceptable." because I "saved" you and you have no right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScarletBegonias

Ms. GP said:


> I completely relate Rowan. Oh, and you left off, "you better not tell me my behavior is unacceptable." because I "saved" you and you have no right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh yeah.that is so sickeningly familiar. ugh.


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## 6301

I have a friend who for some reason is drawn to women who IMO are very needy and he gets involved with them and after about 5 or 6 years, their driving him nuts because of their insecurities and then its over.

Then a few months later, the newest needy woman comes along and it starts all over again and it ends the same way.

The guy's got a heart of gold and will drop everything to help a friend but IMO, people also have to be able to stand on their own two feet and not only experience the feeling of accomplishment but when they fail, learn to dust yourself off and try again rather than play like their tied to the railroad track by the villain.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *I can certainly relate to this. My life was all messed up when I met dh. He gave me direction and security. I was really grateful, and still am.
> 
> Man gets the wife he wants, woman appreciates the opportunity. I don't see any problem with this.*


I saw this on google images the other day...







...many may feel that the other person has be "self made" or Mr or Mrs confident when they meet, having all their sh** together.. but ya know.. this isn't always the reality.... sometimes love is still found when the other may need a boost in one way or another, some tender loving care ...due to some very hurtful experiences -that could have been no fault of their own.. 

What would this world be like if no men like this existed....but just looked upon every women how didn't have her sh** 100% together and deemed her "not worth a second look"... we all have a little dirt... some of us have been beaten down more so than others...not everyone can easily pull their boot straps up with a resilient spirit...we may need someone to show us they believe in US ...

But at the same time, Men need to be very careful here... to what they are inviting into their lives... 

My H was a White Knight with a bad case of "Oneitis" -but he wasn't no fool, had I rejected him, he would have walked away.. and ignored me.. I gave back.. plenty....we both fulfilled something in each other...we were good for each other....

I am going to say....with any Damsel, the Nice Guy/ white Knight type needs to not have his head in the clouds but keep his feet on the ground.. is her Damsel state her own doing...does she jump from one fire into another... does she encroach her boundaries on Men who are TAKEN....thinking nothing of it...Mountainous red flag right there!! 

I think the problem with many men is.. if she is good looking, he looses all common sense, and too often ignores these waving red flags... some have deep rooted issues that no one other than a Therapist...can help with...men need to be very very careful..



> *EasyPartner said*: *Reading the female imput on this thread, it looks like:
> 
> - it's very much OK for a man to be a white knight;
> 
> - whilst only displaying this quality to his own wife*.


 I don't understand your meaning in this post.. are you mocking this? Should we downplay how we feel .. ... My H is a Nice man, a good man...reading some of the responses here completely stomp on men who may have genuine intentions for a woman... I am not particularly fond of this! 



> *MS GP said:* * think a lot of KISA and "nice guys" are really just codependents in disguise. Codependents can't function in a relationship with a woman that doesn't constantly "need" them. They feel unappreciated with a self sufficient woman. All of their insecurities come out. They are the guys constantly asking, "what's wrong? What are you thinking? What are you looking at? Who are you talking too? What are you doing?" Then they progress to insults just to bring their partner down to the level of their own feelings about themselves. Eventually the poor woman gets worn out and gets out, and the guy moves on to a woman he can "fix" and feel good about himself for a minute.
> 
> Nice guy is just a title some men give themselves to feel better about their own dysfunction because they refuse to see their part in it.*


So you feel *any man *who is a gentle helping soul ...has to be co-dependent....No... I very much disagree with you on this..... you know ...there are 16 different temperament types.. we are not all geared the same....all these questions you poured out here -the man seeing reassurance to the point of the woman wanting to throw her hands up on the air.. cant relate to this behavior at all... never experienced it...

If anything... if he felt I wasn't giving as much back, he'd leave me alone and not pester me at all. Which was true of our sex life -when I was a little too much into the kids... and this I have gotten  at him for, looking back.


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## Ikaika

I guess on the other side of the coin, I don't think I would find the needy "helpless" woman all that attractive. I just want to simply say, I don't look at people and life in such a binary fashion. Pretty sure that is not what CM intended to convey. That is if you are not a KISA, then you are somehow a mean SOB. 

I will help people (cultural) but rarely concern myself with some kind of ulterior motive.


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## ScarletBegonias

DH and I lean on each other.We're the soft landing spot for each other. We don't resent one another when we're feeling more independent or strong. We give support when it's needed,coddle each other when we're feeling low,etc. We celebrate the other person's strength and happiness too.

KISA seems to be the person who resents strength in their partner.It seems to throw them off and make them feel unnecessary.If they don't have a helpless unhealthy person clinging to them then they aren't satisfied til they find one who will fulfill their need to be the hero.


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## Ikaika

ScarletBegonias said:


> DH and I lean on each other.We're the soft landing spot for each other. We don't resent one another when we're feeling more independent or strong. We give support when it's needed,coddle each other when we're feeling low,etc. We celebrate the other person's strength and happiness too.
> 
> KISA seems to be the person who resents strength in their partner.It seems to throw them off and make them feel unnecessary.If they don't have a helpless unhealthy person clinging to them then they aren't satisfied til they find one who will fulfill their need to be the hero.



Complimentary strengths, that is building success.


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## Openminded

Ms. GP said:


> I think a lot of KISA and "nice guys" are really just codependents in disguise. Codependents can't function in a relationship with a woman that doesn't constantly "need" them. They feel unappreciated with a self sufficient woman. All of their insecurities come out. They are the guys constantly asking, "what's wrong? What are you thinking? What are you looking at? Who are you talking too? What are you doing?" Then they progress to insults just to bring their partner down to the level of their own feelings about themselves. Eventually the poor woman gets worn out and gets out, and the guy moves on to a woman he can "fix" and feel good about himself for a minute.
> 
> Nice guy is just a title some men give themselves to feel better about their own dysfunction because they refuse to see their part in it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've always felt that was a key reason my ex-husband cheated. I am an extremely self-sufficient person and I think he needed someone who was very dependent on him. Interestingly, however, his new wife is a carbon copy of me. He didn't marry his ultra needy affair partner of thirty years after all.


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## I Don't Know

Ms. GP said:


> I completely relate Rowan. Oh, and you left off, "you better not tell me my behavior is unacceptable." because I "saved" you and you have no right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This rang a bell for me. Thank you, it helps understand my W's second marriage, and what she put up with. And every time she found the courage to leave, he was there telling her she couldn't make it on her own.


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## Ms. GP

No I didn't say every man with a helping soul is codependent. I was trying to explain the difference between the two. I'm glad you haven't experienced the dark side of it SA. I have unfortunately.


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## Rowan

drerio said:


> I will help people (cultural) but rarely concern myself with some kind of ulterior motive.


And that's the difference between someone who is a genuinely kind, helpful person who wants the best for people and a KISA. The KISA looks for a certain set of parameters - a woman who is wounded, or who pretends to be, or even just one he imagines is - then he sets out to fix/heal/save her - even if she doesn't need or want to be saved. But he does it in the ways he prefers, and then expects her to display perpetual gratitude in the way he wants. If she manages to get too healed or healthy, she's no longer of interest. He's likely to alternate helping behaviors with damaging ones, because he needs her to remain at a level of neediness and damage that works for him. Alternately, he may decide that she isn't getting healed fast enough, or in the way he wants her to, and again find she's no longer of interest. 

Either way, by being saved, she has forfeited the right to her own self-determination. He expects her to be grateful, dammit! And to display that gratitude as he sees fit. Because she _owes_ him....

The true KISA mindset is very different from a genuinely nice man who loves a woman enough to help her to achieve health and independence. The KISA mindset combines covert contracts with a high level of controlling behavior and a some definite whiffs of narcissism. 

By the way, the female equivalent of KISA Syndrome is Florence Nightingale Syndrome.


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## Ikaika

I will say my wife is the total opposite of the damsel in distress. She may not be deft at all things (same can be said for me) but was not and does not imply she ever looked to me to be the KISA. She and I both simply need a partner in kind. Do we lift each other up on occasion? Sure we do, but we are equally critical in a constructive manner when necessary. It is about maturity, I see this an issue of maturity. I married her, I didn't adopt a daughter.


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## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I saw this on google images the other day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...many may feel that the other person has be "self made" or Mr or Mrs confident when they meet, having all their sh** together.. but ya know.. this isn't always the reality.... sometimes love is still found when the other may need a boost in one way or another, some tender loving care ...due to some very hurtful experiences -that could have been no fault of their own..
> 
> What would this world be like if no men like this existed....but just looked upon every women how didn't have her sh** 100% together and deemed her "not worth a second look"... we all have a little dirt... some of us have been beaten down more so than others...not everyone can easily pull their boot straps up with a resilient spirit...we may need someone to show us they believe in US ...
> 
> But at the same time, Men need to be very careful here... to what they are inviting into their lives...
> 
> M ... My H is a Nice man, a good man...reading some of the responses here completely stomp on men who may have genuine intentions for a woman... I am not particularly fond of this!


I love that quote, SA, "It takes a strong man to handle a broken woman." I am going to point it out to dh.

That is how I see strength: the ability to be gentle and patient and kind, even when the other person, to your average outside observer, does not seem worthy of it.

Dh said once that we all have different capabilities, and that you cannot ask people to handle what they simply cannot. You cannot ask more of them than they are able to provide. 

I am really glad dh saw value in me when I could not see it in myself. I am glad he treated me with respect even when I did not feel much self-respect. I am so glad he did not need for me to be right at his level. He was strong enough to carry me until he felt I did not need him to.

I asked him why he did it, when I was so damaged. He told me I was damaged, but not irreparably so. He said I just needed a lot of love, and a stable environment. And he was happy to provide it. 

To him it was like an investment, and he says it has paid off.


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## john117

It does take a strong man to handle a broken woman but inevitably both should be prepared for unexpected and not always storybook outcomes.

Don't assume you're damaged because one or two things on life did not go as planned.... I have been super strong for all the good it has done


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## Shoto1984

The part related to helping a woman outside of your marriage is just so ready for trouble its hard to imagine. More generally, it so easy to be a KISA victim and it doesn't have to have anything to do with co-dependency. Our society tells men we are supposed to be the hero. We are supposed to sweep the lady off her feet. We are brought up to value being able to solve problems and fix things. Thus we find a woman in need and all that stuff kicks into gear. The hard lesson as mentioned by CM is that "you can't fix someone" they have to fix themselves and that rarely happens. Its not unlike the drowning swimmer that will take you down with them if you get too close. Been there done that. Never again.


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## Entropy3000

It may be a fine line but there is a difference in my view between a white knight who tries to help other women and one who is strong for his wife and family.


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## Ikaika

Shoto1984 said:


> The *part related to helping a woman outside of your marriage* is just so ready for trouble its hard to imagine. More generally, it so easy to be a KISA victim and it doesn't have to have anything to do with co-dependency. Our society tells men we are supposed to be the hero. We are supposed to sweep the lady off her feet. We are brought up to value being able to solve problems and fix things. Thus we find a woman in need and all that stuff kicks into gear. The hard lesson as mentioned by CM is that "you can't fix someone" they have to fix themselves and that rarely happens. Its not unlike the drowning swimmer that will take you down with them if you get too close. Been there done that. Never again.


This is where my wife gets involved. She is strong independent and capable of helping women outside our family dynamics. If they the women are looking for something else, then they are fishing in the wrong pond. I know my own personal boundaries.


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## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> I may be a fine line but there is a difference in my view between a white knight who tries to help other women and one who is strong for his wife and family.


Yes^^^.

Every man is taught to stand by his wife, protect her and his family etc. He is her vanguard, her " white night."

But the problem comes in when he is constantly in need of more and more validation, so just being strong for his wife and family isn't enough.

He finds himself a new , bigger " project" a damsel in distress and he sees the possibility of more validation. He lives for it.

If damsel in distress is a broken and manipulative woman, she senses his craving for validation, and gives it to him as bait.
He will keep coming back for more everytime she " manufactures " a crisis.
The wife begins to realize what's happening , but she's either unable or afraid to confront for fear of being called insecure or jealous.

But the reality is that the KISA husband was always emotionally broken. He was able to keep it well hidden.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> I can certainly relate to this. My life was all messed up when I met dh. He gave me direction and security. I was really grateful, and still am.
> 
> Man gets the wife he wants, woman appreciates the opportunity. I don't see any problem with this.


The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is not about what you describe. What you describe is what happens when two people complement each other.


The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is about guys who are constantly trying to save some damsel in distress. She's typically not his wife. While his wife has to do all the painting, grass cutting, picture hanging, etc around their house.. he's out being the "knight in shining armor" to the damsels in distress ... these are usually women who he finds attractive and seem to be coming on to him.. though in some cases he's just chasing them without the damsel really showing any interest.


----------



## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is not about what you describe. What you describe is what happens when two people complement each other.
> 
> 
> *The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is about guys who are constantly trying to save some damsel in distress. She's typically not his wife. While his wife has to do all the painting, grass cutting, picture hanging, etc around their house.. he's out being the "knight in shining armor" to the damsels in distress ... these are usually women who he finds attractive and seem to be coming on to him.. though in some cases he's just chasing them without the damsel really showing any interest.*


Yes.

He constantly seeks validation from sources external to himself and his wife.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is not about what you describe. What you describe is what happens when two people complement each other.
> 
> 
> The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is about guys who are constantly trying to save some damsel in distress. She's typically not his wife. While his wife has to do all the painting, grass cutting, picture hanging, etc around their house.. he's out being the "knight in shining armor" to the damsels in distress ... these are usually women who he finds attractive and seem to be coming on to him.. though in some cases he's just chasing them without the damsel really showing any interest.


Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining. I don't think dh understood this term, either.


----------



## john117

There are wives who cut grass, paint houses, and walk the dog???? I think I just shredded my marriage certificate lolz 

PM if interested . We can have a long discussion on the evils of government intervention in water based house paints...


----------



## Caribbean Man

john117 said:


> *There are wives who cut grass, paint houses, and walk the dog???? I think I just shredded my marriage certificate lolz *


Well given the fact that her KISA husband ain't doing it, and that he prefers to do it for the neighborhood damsel in distress,

She doesn't really have an option.


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is not about what you describe. What you describe is what happens when two people complement each other.
> 
> 
> The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is about guys who are constantly trying to save some damsel in distress. She's typically not his wife. While his wife has to do all the painting, grass cutting, picture hanging, etc around their house.. he's out being the "knight in shining armor" to the damsels in distress ... these are usually women who he finds attractive and seem to be coming on to him.. though in some cases he's just chasing them without the damsel really showing any interest.


Yes. This is a white knight. Messed up.


----------



## Sandfly

Well, sometimes it is quite obvious, such as when there is an age and attractiveness gap a mile long, that it 'doesn't make sense' for this man to be hanging out with this much younger woman (and nowadays, often, much younger gay man).

When _money _changes hands rather than mere favours, this is when you can tell that it's not an unconscious or semi-conscious thing on the part of the distressed maiden/boy, but cold hard calculation.

I dunno, I try to also see it from the point of view of the manipulator. For example, where you have a young lady/man whose needs exceed their earnings, who are smart, but because of their country/economy being broken and not providing opportunities to be gracefully independent while modestly financed, then they have the choice of continuing something that doesn't work - i.e. honesty - or doing their best to take advantage of an already broken and dishonest situation.

Witness for example, the beautiful Russian/Ukrainian women. Or the adonai males of parts of the carribean. Does anyone seriously believe that if they had the choice between modest, but secure incomes and wh*ring, that they would choose the latter?

Breaks my heart... but not enough that I'm gonna try rescuing any


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EleGirl said:


> The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is not about what you describe. *What you describe is what happens when two people complement each other.*


 I agree with what you say here... and I can't deny this was so true of our own relationship from the get go.... but what I am seeing here in this thread -reading these posts...is a whole new definition to the White Knight thing... this wouldn't be the 1st word that's been distorted/ picked apart with a flurry of meanings and tainted over the years....due to changes in society at large...

It's almost like I feel I should be ashamed or take back the way I describe our beginnings...but I feel they fit in some ways.. so I want to keep them...darn it!....this makes ME some damn needy leech and him a completely blubbering fool.. [email protected]#

I don't think so..

Yrs ago on this forum I left some post about my teenage yrs & how my attitude wasn't so wonderful...it's a case of.. "I've come a long way baby"....."Unbelievable" left me some reply saying it sounded like we had a Damsel/ Knight story....and ya know ... I told him....Yeah... it kinda was when you think about it and I smiled......how could I disagree...oh well ... it is what it is.. I was an angry young girl with chips on my shoulder...and my very kind gentle Boyfriend helped me have more faith in what this world has to offer...that hand in hand....we might see our dreams come true..Look at my avatar - I LIKE IT !



EleGirl said:


> The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is about guys who are constantly trying to save some damsel in distress. *She's typically not his wife.* While his wife has to do all the painting, grass cutting, picture hanging, etc around their house.. he's out being the "knight in shining armor" to the damsels in distress ... these are usually women who he finds attractive and seem to be coming on to him.. though in some cases he's just chasing them without the damsel really showing any interest.


 See until this thread ... I have NEVER looked upon the term in the way it is laid out here....involving other women...Never even entered the BRAIN... 1st I've ever heard of this.... where did this come from???.. this is a NEWER CONCEPT / definition...

. I have always associated White Knights as Traditionalists, the Hero, those men who practiced Chivalry...all wrapped up in a romantic story line...for ONE SPECIAL WOMAN... 

... almost like Cinderella.... she was beaten down by her step Mother & step sisters and this Prince came & took her away with the glass slipper... that's White Knightish , isn't it? 

The actual meaning is this >> "*someone or something that rescues or saves another person or thing from a bad situation*"..I'd say we've added quite a bit to it ... in many directions.

I read this in an article just now. . the meaning really has changed along with our modern world...



> The White knight used to be an object of admiration, but lately he has become an object of derision and even pity.
> 
> Urban Dictionary defines the white knight as:
> 
> A person (usually a male) who sees the typical maiden in distress, and believes that he can help her. A male version of the “mother figure” that some girls become.
> 
> Implicit in that definition is the recognition that white knights are dupes who won’t get the sex they think their heroism is supposed to net them. The change in the white knight’s status can be traced to the change in the Western culture and the functioning of the sexual market. As women have become more self-sufficient, more socially and sexually aggressive, more pampered by the ruling elite and their foot soldiers, and less in need of beta male provisioning, the justification for the white knight’s services has been annulled. What was once a legitimate way to curry favor with women and to uphold traditional social mores for the betterment of the ethnically cohesive whole, has become a pretentious clown show neither desired by its intended recipients nor necessary as a stopgap to preserve social mores that have long ceased their operational relevance."


Got some of these answers here Why is being a White Knight a bad thing  

This makes them all A-holes ...



> To the white knight women are always right, always victims, always in need of saving, always innocent, and always good. That is why people hate white knights. They are brown nosing desperate suck ups who think if they do it enough maybe they will get rewarded in the form of sex. They are probably the type who give free items and stuff to people they believe to be women in mmos"


This one uplifts them as a Hero...



> Hero comes from the word Sero which means servant(to society).As a women this is something you'll likely never understand.White knights are SELFLESS,put others before themselves and have no acquaintance with an identity which isn't defined by what they can do for others.Being a white knight means putting your life at risk for women and risking injury.To even find being a white knight acceptable is to believe that it is a mans RESPONSIBILITY to defend you as a woman,which is awfully gynocentric and reinforces male disposability;A man is only a "man" if he's willing to risk harm for the benefit of the lady.


Then we got this answer - a little more balance to it >>



> It is not a bad thing but the term has been *perverted* and *distorted* to mean those men who are currently allowing women to implode Western Society with their caprice and immorality and caterwauling. They defend the basest of women, the lowest of characters, the abusers, and bullies, and nasties. Defend the worthy by all means!
> 
> White knighting can be injustice in an improper context. It is fair to defend a woman from an intimidating man, even where she is mean and provocative, if said man (white knight) has a degree of equanimity and objectivity and does not pedestalize an unworthy woman/character out of this gesture. Those women feel invincible to do as they please. Don't white knight a woman who is a domestic abuser from the man who finally snaps, after a long period of iniquity and trauma. Don't allow women to run rough shod.


Then we got this one bringing Feminism into it.. Geez!! 



> To antifeminists, yes. Because to them men only ever help or are decent to women in the hopes of getting laid. White knights annoy antifeminists because they honestly think that a man who supports equality or defends women must ONLY be doing so in order to get laid. Antifeminists do not support equality and often generally dislike women on some level, so of course defending women is out of the question.
> 
> White knights, to an antifeminist, are men enabling women to not be second class citizens. They are traitors who, of course, are only betraying men to get laid.
> 
> What this tells us about antifeminists who complain about white knights:
> 1.) They view women as sex objects. The only value women have is as sex objects to them.
> 2.) They believe all other men, even if it's only secretly, feel the same way.
> 3.) They dislike women on some level, if they don't outright hate women.


Seems to me.. we can just about make our own definitions to what a White Knight is !


----------



## sandc

Great thread CM. I can see these tendencies in myself. I have a wonderful wife who finds ways to gently remind me when I'm doing it again. God bless her.

This thread has given me a little insight into myself.


----------



## jld

I think you're right, SA, that everyone has their own definition of everything. I never thought much about the terms alpha and beta before coming across relationship forums. And even then I did not realize beta was supposed to be a bad thing.

To dh, White Knight apparently means a man who tries to solve a woman's problems for her, instead of being supportive, but letting her solve them on her own. I did not know this before today either, lol.

I will tell you what. I think we all have our own ideas about these terms, and about what we like/appreciate in the opposite sex. I need dh's help in a lot of areas, and while he may not _need_ mine, he sure likes having me around. It's a Win/Win, whatever labels anyone wants to put on us.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sandc said:


> Great thread CM. I can see these tendencies in myself. I have a wonderful wife who finds ways to gently remind me when I'm doing it again. God bless her.
> 
> This thread has given me a little insight into myself.


LoL SandC!

I know what you mean.

That's one of the reasons why I did the thread.

I don't think my case would qualify as KISA , but I don't know why I always feel the compulsion to " fix" my younger sister.

I'm definitely not interested in any strange damsel in distress, but my sister and elder drug addict brother seem to have a hold on me.

I generally like helping people, but my wife tells me that I allow them to take advantage of me because I always say yes and go out of my way to help them.

Especially my sister. She's a troubled woman with four kids and lots of drama.

Whenever she's in trouble, she calls me.
Whenever she needs money to do something , she calls me.

I find it hard to say no to her, because I don't like the idea of any strange men taking advantage of her.

So I just try to listen to my wife and we tend to reason it out.


----------



## Entropy3000

jld said:


> I think you're right, SA, that everyone has their own definition of everything. I never thought much about the terms alpha and beta before coming across relationship forums. And even then I did not realize beta was supposed to be a bad thing.
> 
> To dh, White Knight apparently means a man who tries to solve a woman's problems for her, instead of being supportive, but letting her solve them on her own. I did not know this before today either, lol.
> 
> I will tell you what. I think we all have our own ideas about these terms, and about what we like/appreciate in the opposite sex. I need dh's help in a lot of areas, and while he may not _need_ mine, he sure likes having me around. It's a Win/Win, whatever labels anyone wants to put on us.


Beta is not a bad thing. All real men have to have a solid base of Beta to even be worth anything. Beta is considered bad by many of us when it is the extreme and the guy cannot function in more Alpha ways when he needs to or his family needs them to.

Personally I think balnace is key. BUT, I have no isse with a good guy being more Beta to others in general. As long as he has boundaries and knows when to unleash the Kraken. Speak softly and carry a big stick kinda thing. Just being all Alpha is being a d!ck. Some women are all about that which speaks volumes of them. So I usually encourage guys to be a good guy with an edge. 

Here on TAM when folks refer to someone as Beta what they really mean is that they are too passive and not having enough self respect. Doormat even. To me beig Beta out of strenghth is what is correct. Being Beta because you have low self esteem or are afraid is not a good thing.

So a nice balance. The ability to adapt for the circumstances to me is important. Any guy who comes off too Alpha all the time is a fake. They are afraid.


----------



## EleGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> ....
> Seems to me.. we can just about make our own definitions to what a White Knight is !


Yes there are many different ways in which the term can be used.

But in this particular thread, CG is talking about the KISA that refers to the kind of guy I described. These KISA who put their energy into saving Damsels in Distress who are not their wife are common enough that the KISA term is often used to describe them... 

It's kind of the Knight in Shinning Armor gone all wrong.


----------



## Sandfly

Caribbean Man said:


> LoL SandC!
> 
> I know what you mean.
> 
> That's one of the reasons why I did the thread.
> 
> I don't think my case would qualify as KISA , but I don't know why I always feel the compulsion to " fix" my younger sister.
> 
> I'm definitely not interested in any strange damsel in distress, but my sister and elder drug addict brother seem to have a hold on me.
> 
> I generally like helping people, but my wife tells me that I allow them to take advantage of me because I always say yes and go out of my way to help them.
> 
> Especially my sister. She's a troubled woman with four kids and lots of drama.
> 
> Whenever she's in trouble, she calls me.
> Whenever she needs money to do something , she calls me.
> 
> I find it hard to say no to her, because I don't like the idea of any strange men taking advantage of her.
> 
> So I just try to listen to my wife and we tend to reason it out.


Well, CM, referring you to a previous post, I think that as long as you don't cross the 'giving money' line, it's safe. 

But it seems you have?

Where does your wife see the line, and how does it differ from where you see it?

This is a side story, not related to your thread:

I remember this Spanish story about Miguel and Paco.

Paco was always complaining about his brother coming to him and asking for money.

Every second day he would come to his house with a story about some new accident or misfortune, and the punchline was always that he needed a little money, would Paco give some?

Paco asked Miguel what to do, because his lies were hurting him, but he couldn't say no to his brother.

Miguel said: if you want your brother to stay away from you, next time, _lend _him some money. 

You'll never see him again!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *I think you're right, SA, that everyone has their own definition of everything.* I never thought much about the terms alpha and beta before coming across relationship forums. And even then I did not realize beta was supposed to be a bad thing.
> 
> To dh, White Knight apparently means a man who tries to solve a woman's problems for her, instead of being supportive, but letting her solve them on her own. I did not know this before today either, lol.
> 
> I will tell you what. * I think we all have our own ideas about these terms, and about what we like/appreciate in the opposite sex. *I need dh's help in a lot of areas, and while he may not _need_ mine, he sure likes having me around. It's a Win/Win, whatever labels anyone wants to put on us.


I asked my husband earlier ...if he looks at himself like a "White Knight"...and he told me he does...I think he smiled and said "THAT's ME".. ... I let him know this makes him a total loser...that this means he is out saving random helpless damsels from all their ills ...seeking praise....also to get sex (of course)....as his self esteem is so low...on the ground... and he needs constant validation.....he gave me a befuddled look with all of that.. ha ha 








....those hundreds of years ago would roll over in their graves with that definition.



EleGirl said:


> *Yes there are many different ways in which the term can be used.
> 
> But in this particular thread, CG is talking about the KISA that refers to the kind of guy I described. These KISA who put their energy into saving Damsels in Distress who are not their wife are common enough that the KISA term is often used to describe them...
> 
> It's kind of the Knight in Shinning Armor gone all wrong*.


Well the word has obviously been tainted in a very bad way.. from admiration to the most pathetic of men.....in my reading about it today -they have "internet white knights too"...


----------



## jld

It's hard to refuse money to family members. 

When dh and I were first together, my sister had a baby out of wedlock. We visited her almost every Sat. and watched her baby for her while she worked. One day she called and told me she could not pay her rent. She said she was going to ask our parents for the money.

I was shocked that Mom and Dad would help her. They were always so tight. I expressed this shock, that they would help, and she told me that yes, they did, and she was going to make the call, unless dh and I would like to help her instead. I told her I would ask dh.

I explained that we would have to consider it a gift, not a loan, as I did not know if my sister would ever pay it back. He agreed, and I wrote out a check for $1500 (two months rent back in 1993!). And I threw in $20 for diapers.

Shockingly, she paid us back when she got her Christmas bonus! She even asked me what interest we wanted. I was like, What? Are you kidding? We don't want interest! From a family member? Good grief.

And when she moved to work for my brother's company two years later, she started making really good money, like over 300k a year. Not bad for a single mother!

We have never asked her, nor anyone else for money. And we have not been asked since. (Five kids, they probably figure we don't have any to lend! They're right! )

I don't like to get involved financially with people. But she mentioned to me once, many years later, how grateful she was to dh and me for helping back in her struggling years. Just that was meaningful to me.


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I asked my husband earlier ...if he looks at himself like a "White Knight"...and he told me he does...I think he smiled and said "THAT's ME".. ... I let him know this makes him a total loser...that this means he is out saving random helpless damsels from all their ills ...seeking praise....also to get sex (of course)....as his self esteem is so low...on the ground... and he needs constant validation.....he gave me a befuddled look with all of that.. ha ha


Lol, internet armchair psychology. 

Different people get together for different reasons. We are meeting different needs in each other. 

As long as both partners in the relationship are satisfied, it's all good. It doesn't matter how anyone else views it.


----------



## EleGirl

SimplyAmorous,

OM, this type is sooooo obvious.. out there looking for DiD to cry on his shoulder... her telling him what a caring/loving/kind/wonder guy he is. Saying all the right words... all the while his wife is begging for 5 mintues of his time.... :rofl: well actually it would be funny if it was not so predictable and so sad.


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well the word has obviously been tainted in a very bad way.. from admiration to the most pathetic of men.....in my reading about it today -they have "internet white knights too"...


My goodness SA,

I never thought of it that way, but I'm sure it might apply!

Hilarious and sad at the same time..
But you get the drift.
Dark Irony.

Anyway, the person who asked me to do this thread, [ she appeared kinda shy to post on here] mentioned to me that she thinks her husband is in a KISA situation with a neighbour, and she wants to know how can she approach him without making him angry etc.

Any ideas ?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Sandfly said:


> Well, CM, referring you to a previous post, I think that as long as you don't cross the 'giving money' line, it's safe.
> 
> But it seems you have?
> 
> Where does your wife see the line, and how does it differ from where you see it?
> 
> This is a side story, not related to your thread:
> 
> I remember this Spanish story about Miguel and Paco.
> 
> Paco was always complaining about his brother coming to him and asking for money.
> 
> Every second day he would come to his house with a story about some new accident or misfortune, and the punchline was always that he needed a little money, would Paco give some?
> 
> Paco asked Miguel what to do, because his lies were hurting him, but he couldn't say no to his brother.
> 
> Miguel said: if you want your brother to stay away from you, next time, _lend _him some money.
> 
> You'll never see him again!


Sandfly,

My sister knows exactly how to tug at my heartstrings.
Ever since we were little , I've always protected her at school , home , even when she was a teen and lots of guys started comming around to her, I did the dirty work of getting rid of the undesirable or the ones she jilted.

I even employed her when her husband left her, she worked for about two weeks, I paid her full money, and continued to pay her , even though she wasn't showing up regularly.
Lots of other stuff.

In fact sometime ago, she asked me to "help" her purchase a vehicle.

Right there is where my wife drew the line...


----------



## Sandfly

Helping her get a job or giving her one that pays, overlooking tardiness, a bit of absence etc. in my opinion was the right side of the line. Good man! Those are all favours.

Your wife sounds like she was on the ball when it turned toward money, even where disguised as 'finance' or a loan.

Well done her! 

In the long run, you will probably retain your sister's affection better by not making her obligated in a directly financial way.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> *My goodness SA,
> 
> I never thought of it that way, but I'm sure it might apply!
> 
> Hilarious and sad at the same time..
> But you get the drift.
> Dark Irony*.


 Actually I can't even relate to what this is trying to express ... I have never met anyone who was dissing his wife -while playing women online -racking up notches on his bedpost.... Oh I have no doubt this happens (Craigs list anyone!)... 

Something is greatly amiss at home.. how can it not be.. I can't see it any other way.. the communication has been severed, resentment entered... somewhere down the line a couple stops validating & appreciating each other ...as in *His Needs/ Her Needs *would lay out....then one seeks validation elsewhere...relationship breakdowns can lead to this variant form of White Knightism too ...wouldn't you say.....



Caribbean Man said:


> *Anyway, the person who asked me to do this thread, [ she appeared kinda shy to post on here] mentioned to me that she thinks her husband is in a KISA situation with a neighbour, and she wants to know how can she approach him without making him angry etc.
> 
> Any ideas *?


Well right there.. her fear to approach her own H over an issue shows the communication and openness with taken a dive, something is very lost here.... when one is questioning the others intentions like this...we need to be able to open the dialog...and hopefully the other not throwing up a barrier ...or his accusing her of being intrusive for her concern...all red flags .... 

There is such a thing as Healthy jealousy...she can start here... there is a reason she is concerned, obviously subtle boundaries are being crossed in her own backyard...

I have posted this a # of times... (this is a christian based article..I felt it was very good at explaining these differences)... 

Healthy and unhealthy jealousy



> *Two types of jealousy*
> 
> Jealousy can be either healthy or unhealthy. Healthy jealousy is a means to guard your territory and comes from a sincere care and commitment to a relationship. On the other hand, unhealthy jealousy manifests itself through lies, threats, self-pity, and feelings of inadequacy, inferiority and insecurity.
> 
> *The good kind* : Healthy jealousy guards the heart of a marriage because it:
> 
> *1.* shows your commitment to the relationship
> *2*. protects your marriage by safeguarding the relationship against evil attacks
> *3*. deepens your openness with each other and makes you accountable through honest communication
> *4. *helps you confront major threats to your marriage and head them off before they become major problems
> 
> God calls you to respect your spouse’s jealousy that is a warning of danger ahead. If your spouse is a secure person and desires to protect your marriage against cracks, you need to listen. Confront the issue head-on by finding the reason for the jealousy, then making changes to keep you both out of danger.
> 
> *Wives: Trust your husband’s instincts. *He knows how men think, what they want and how they pursue it. So, it would be foolish of you not to heed his warning.
> 
> *Men: Trust your wife’s instincts.* If she suggests that another woman is behaving inappropriately, your wife is probably right. Most women have radar, an innate alertness to nonverbal communication and an ability to translate body language and tone into emotional facts. Your wife probably is able to see these things clearly, so don’t criticize or blame her warnings on insecurity.
> 
> *The bad*: Unhealthy jealousy is altogether different. It stems from comparing yourself to others and feeling inadequate, unimportant, inferior and pitiful. Some spouses have experienced a lot of loss in life – whether divorce, death or abandonment in childhood – and they may bring unresolved issues into the relationship in the form of jealousy. Yet when a person carries this jealousy to pathological extremes, it will dominate a relationship.
> 
> A chronically jealous spouse will try to control a relationship through exaggeration, self-pity, lies, threats and/or manipulation. When the other partner resists, the jealous person reacts by becoming even more controlling. Then the other partner resists further by confiding in a friend or seeking relief outside the marriage. Sometimes this can become a downward spiral.
> 
> *Here are just some of the effects of unhealthy jealousy*:
> 
> *1. *You doubt your spouse’s honesty and wrongfully accuse him or her, pushing your spouse away.
> *2*. You feel worthless and unimportant.
> *3*. You become frustrated and overwhelmed.
> *4*. You have a desire to control.
> *5.* You have less sexual intimacy with your spouse.
> 
> When jealousy becomes unhealthy it is destructive and frustrating to contend with. Love is not jealous and possessive. True love enables you to aim for what is best for the other person – not what is best for you.
> 
> Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7)
> 
> So how do you deal with unhealthy jealousy in your marriage? Here are some tips for both spouses – whether you have or are a jealous spouse.
> 
> *If you have a jealous spouse:*
> 
> *1*. Assess whether you are doing something that is provoking the jealousy.
> *2*. Stop that activity or involvement for a time to show your spouse that you’re committed to your marriage relationship.
> *3*. Be demonstrative in love toward your spouse.
> *4*. Talk openly with your spouse about the problem. Get his or her take on it (the feelings may be legitimate), and work together to find a solution.
> 
> *If you are the jealous spouse:*
> 
> *1*. Listen to a few trusted friends. Your jealousy may be your own problem, not your spouse’s.
> *2.* Be honest with yourself. Ask what is causing the feelings. Are you trying to manipulate?
> *3.* Think about your spouse more positively. Jealous people use their anxious thoughts and suspicions as cues to misread anything that their spouses do. Instead, take a deep breath and pray – for yourself and for your spouse.
> *4.* Express your feelings to your spouse. Own up to your jealousy. Be honest without being blaming or manipulative.


----------



## Wiltshireman

I do not THINK I have "KISA" syndrome but I have always felt the need to help those around me (regardless of gender).

As a child I was taught to offer my seat on the bus / train to the elderly, the infirm, women in general. I ran errands for my parents and for neighbors, was active in the church youth club, the boy scouts etc.

Yes there have been occasions when I know people have taken advantage of my good nature but it will not stop me from trying to do good. There have been a few "damsels in distress" who have wanted more interment help than I have been prepared to offer but a firm polite refusal was all it has ever taken to defuse any potentially damaging situations. 

My wife is if anything more willing to offer her and my help to those around us so she must fit the "Mother Teresa" type I guess it is one of the shared goals / traits that attracted us to each other in the first place.


----------



## jld

Nothing wrong with being a good person, Wilt.

I think we could use a lot more kindness and generosity in this world.


----------



## DoF

Label it whatever you want. To me, it simply comes down to good people and ****ty people.

Good people will appreciate your help. Those that don't want it or need it, will/should tell you how they feel.

And those that use it against you are usually the worst kind!!!

You guys heard me say this before and I guess I will say it again. If you are a kind/nice person, do not change. Use it to your advantage. Think of it as a **** filter!

Those that take advantage of your kindness, dump to the side and isolate yourself from.

Those that appreciate it and don't take it for granted are probably the ones you want to surround yourself with (good people).

Mind you, as a nice/good person, you WILL have to be nasty and tell people how it is at times (those that take advantage). And that's where the problem lies for lot of these folks (this used to include me as well). 

I used to ignore these signs and kept going and continued to be nice.....to those that were the biggest scum. And they kept using it against me.

So the KEY to being a good person is identifying/filtering ****ty people AS THEY COME and RIGHT WHEN THEY COME. Do NOT let it simmer!!! Once you identify it, deal with them RIGHT AWAY.

Since nobody is perfect I do apply "everyone deserves a 2nd chance but not 3rd" to this as well. But I make it VERY clear that I don't appreciate what they have done and next time they won't see me again! Scum will usually go away at this point, decent people will stick around and realize what they have done wrong (if they apologize right there and then= good indicator).

Now, as far as my marriage goes. I was def a white knight. No question about it. I was just very lucky to find a good person/wife cause frankly she could've pulled lot of **** on me back when I was young and stupid and I would've went through HELL. 

She came from a rough family and had a rough childhood. Her parents didn't teach her anything and she had to learn the hard way. So early on in her teens she was in a lot of toxic relationships and driving blind. On our end, I did my best to show her the way.....but she was willing to take my hand and follow....and in the end she learned/figured these things out on her own (with my help of course).

And the same applies the other way around. I'm no angel and needed her hand holding even more so!!!

And that my friends, is what relationships are all about. Helping your loved one, being supportive and standing by them. As long as both people have a little bit of willingness to be better people/to learn....that's really all it takes.

NOW, if you have 1 party that has 0 desire to better themselves, see what's going on around them, listen to their partners etc etc.......and they keep repeating the same mistakes etc.....that's when the trouble begins.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Wiltshireman said:


> I do not THINK I have "KISA" syndrome but I have always felt the need to help those around me (regardless of gender).
> 
> As a child I was taught to offer my seat on the bus / train to the elderly, the infirm, women in general. I ran errands for my parents and for neighbors, was active in the church youth club, the boy scouts etc.
> 
> Yes there have been occasions when I know people have taken advantage of my good nature but it will not stop me from trying to do good. There have been a few "damsels in distress" who have wanted more interment help than I have been prepared to offer but a firm polite refusal was all it has ever taken to defuse any potentially damaging situations.



I can definitely identify with this.


----------



## DoF

Caribbean Man said:


> I can definitely identify with this.


I can too

Any good person will...


----------



## Moderate

Many thanks for this thread CM.


My H likes to help others and I am so appreciative of the help he gives me and both our families, and pretty much anyone, when the need arises. 

I have a concern about a neighbour who has seemingly taken a heightened interest in my H over past several months, approaching him for advice, to do stuff for her, and calling on him when she knows I am not around to chat and I want to approach my H in the right way and not over-react. (I should probably add that I have been cheated on in the past by a previous partner.)

Without seeming to make too much of a big deal over it, a few weeks back I did say to my H that I found it disrespectful of neighbour to call here on at least 3 occasions when I believe she knew I was out. I think my H somewhat understands my discomfort but he believes/wants to believe the neighbour is not deliberately overstepping and simply needs advice on stuff men rather than women are knowledgable about. My concern is he doesn't know how to say no to people without feeling guilty. And he will let her chat on and on (he'll be in conversation with her for maybe half an hour whereas with other neighbours conversations last 5 minutes tops). 

Neighbour is a divorcee and the type of person who seems to always be at the window and knows everybody's business. I hope she has no ulterior motive, but ....

IMO H is somewhat naive, and it is not necessarily second nature for him to "listen to his wife"LOL. 

CM - in particular, what you say below about self esteem is very insightful and could well apply to H.





Caribbean Man said:


> ...aka the " _White Knight_."
> 
> Anyone knows what I'm talking about?
> Ladies , have you ever seen one?
> Men ,do you know what defines one?
> 
> Recently I was on another thread and I mentioned the term. A new member / " registered user" PMed me and asked to help define it for her, because her husband fell into a situation similar to what I was describing in the thread.
> 
> [BTW, _welcome to TAM new member, hope you find solutions to your problems here!_]
> 
> The " white knight " syndrome is a problem that seems to plague men. It's the idea that certain types of men have where they feel a compulsion to ' help" people , most times women who present themselves as, or whom they view as " _damsels in distress_."
> 
> Absolutely nothing is wrong with helping people who _want to be helped_,but the problem with the white knight is the motive behind his compulsive drive to " help" people.
> 
> His motives usually comes from a place of low self esteem , where he constantly yearns for external validation. In other words, deep down inside , he doesn't think he's a good person and people like him for who he is , so he constantly seeks out people who are broken or _damsels in distress_ to help "fix" them, they shower him with praise and he feels validated.
> 
> The problem with this is that there are also broken women who seek out white knights , and they milk him for all he's worth.
> 
> I have seen quite a few relationships wrecked by women who use white knights.
> 
> If he's married or in a committed relationship, the problem becomes ten times worse because his poor wife is trying to reason with him and he begins to project his insecurity on to her ,telling her that she's acting jealous and insecure ,driving a wedge between them.
> She begins to question her sanity, even though her gut tells her that little Mrs " _damsel in distress / hottie_ " next door or on his work is poaching on her marital territory,whilst he's like a zombie ,entering into affair territory , yearning for some extra external validation.
> 
> I have a lot of empathy for "White Knights". I was almost there myself. I think they should take some time for self-reflection and *save themselves*. It's admirable to want to "step up to the plate" and sometimes "White Knights" really can end up rescuing an appreciative woman . But I would caution anyone who feels the need to "rescue" to step back, take a deep breath, and take stock. *You can't save anyone who doesn't want to save themselves. *
> Stop fooling yourself. Being a "White Knight" is a thankless job that will get you nowhere, and it will put your marriage in serious trouble.
> 
> So how could a man recognize and deal with the white knight tendencies he may have in himself?
> 
> 1] Know that you are a good man and stop depending on strange women outside of your marriage for validation. Work on building a healthy self esteem.You are a good man,not because other women say so, but because you respect yourself, your wife, provide for your family ,love your kids and are a responsible citizen.
> 
> 2]Listen to your wife, even though sometimes she might seem a bit insecure about the relationship, your first duty is to make her feel secure. Helping other women is incidental to you being a good husband and man .
> 
> 3]Your wife is your team mate, treat her opinions as such.If you must help a damsel in distress, then logically , you would need your team mate's input.
> 
> 4]Be honest with yourself. Recognize your boundaries, limitations and weaknesses. Nothing is wrong with going out of your way to help a damsel in distress, but it is morally reprehensible to pretend you're trying to help another woman when your wife at home is unhappy and needs your urgent attention.
> 
> 5] Did I mention LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE?
> 
> This is just a little synopsis of the knight In shining Armor syndrome, and the root causes of it.
> But there is much more and ,
> Your inputs are welcome.
> 
> Feel free to post your thoughts and experiences.


----------



## Moderate

SimplyAmorous said:


> ........Actually I can't even relate to what this is trying to express ... I have never met anyone who was dissing his wife -while playing women online -racking up notches on his bedpost.... Oh I have no doubt this happens (Craigs list anyone!)...
> 
> Something is greatly amiss at home.. how can it not be.. I can't see it any other way.. the communication has been severed, resentment entered... somewhere down the line a couple stops validating & appreciating each other ...as in *His Needs/ Her Needs *would lay out....then one seeks validation elsewhere...relationship breakdowns can lead to this variant form of White Knightism too ...wouldn't you say.....
> 
> 
> Well right there.. her fear to approach her own H over an issue shows the communication and openness with taken a dive, something is very lost here.... when one is questioning the others intentions like this...we need to be able to open the dialog...and hopefully the other not throwing up a barrier ...or his accusing her of being intrusive for her concern...all red flags ....
> 
> There is such a thing as Healthy jealousy...she can start here... there is a reason she is concerned, obviously subtle boundaries are being crossed in her own backyard...
> 
> I have posted this a # of times... (this is a christian based article..I felt it was very good at explaining these differences)...
> 
> Healthy and unhealthy jealousy


The stuff you quoted on jealousy is priceless! Thanks for sharing. I have yet to go to the link but will tomorrow when time permits.

Yes, we have had communication issues. Loads of silent treatment from him in the past. We had some counselling and things got better but every now and then the silence comes up, although it's not as often or prolonged as it was in the past.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Rowan said:


> This was my experience with my ex-husband. He needed to save damsels in distress, as an emotional prop for himself. It didn't matter to him if their distress was obviously a direct result of their own poor choices, or if they were actually victims of someone else's bad behavior. As long as they were - or seemed to be, as he was apparently 100% blind to even overt manipulation by women - needy and helpless, he was all in. But he definitely needed his damsels to be grateful in the way he wanted, and he needed the distress to last. His attention drifted quickly to the next damsel at the first sign that the current one had emotional needs other than the ones thought she should, or that she might no longer be in need of his rescue.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's typical of KISA guys, but his need for his women to be needy also led him to be somewhat emotionally abusive. I do not believe it was a consciously thought-out manipulation on his part, and I'm not sure he was ever able to see it in himself. But you can't have your damsel growing a backbone, finding inner strength or having too much self-respect. He had a vested interest in helping me cultivate and maintain anxiety and low self-esteem. He was doing me a huge favor by lifting me out of my pitiful existence and loving me - and I'd better never forget it!


Ugh... You are so describing my relationship, complete with the kisa affair in 2012 and emotional abuse...


----------



## Caribbean Man

Moderate said:


> Many thanks for this thread CM.
> 
> 
> My H likes to help others and I am so appreciative of the help he gives me and both our families, and pretty much anyone, when the need arises.
> 
> I have a concern about a neighbour who has seemingly taken a heightened interest in my H over past several months, approaching him for advice, to do stuff for her, and calling on him when she knows I am not around to chat and I want to approach my H in the right way and not over-react. (I should probably add that I have been cheated on in the past by a previous partner.)
> 
> Without seeming to make too much of a big deal over it, a few weeks back I did say to my H that I found it disrespectful of neighbour to call here on at least 3 occasions when I believe she knew I was out. I think my H somewhat understands my discomfort but he believes/wants to believe the neighbour is not deliberately overstepping and simply needs advice on stuff men rather than women are knowledgable about. My concern is he doesn't know how to say no to people without feeling guilty. And he will let her chat on and on (he'll be in conversation with her for maybe half an hour whereas with other neighbours conversations last 5 minutes tops).
> 
> Neighbour is a divorcee and the type of person who seems to always be at the window and knows everybody's business. I hope she has no ulterior motive, but ....
> 
> IMO H is somewhat naive, and it is not necessarily second nature for him to "listen to his wife"LOL.
> 
> CM - in particular, what you say below about self esteem is very insightful and could well apply to H.


My guess is that you've told your husband your concerns more than once.
What was his response?

What is your gut feeling on this woman?

Do you suppose that the fact that you had been cheated on in the past is affecting the way you see things or are you a bit unsure?


----------



## Moderate

Yes, I have said more than once that I find her behaviour off and disrespectful, and I know I wouldn't be consciously calling on anyone's husband when I knew the wife wasn't around. He feels he is in a difficult position because he doesn't want to appear rude or un-neighbourly. 

She keeps asking for advice about some household/garden stuff and I think she is working up to asking him if he will help her out with the work. Thing is, if it was one of the other neighbours I probably wouldn't mind nearly so much about him maybe giving a hand, but just the fact that she is like targetting him when I'm not around is making me very uncomfortable. (she may assume I will block him from helping). 

I joked with my H that maybe she is "after him". He dismissed this. I've said he/we don't have to always answer the doorbell if she rings but he says she'll know he's home because his car is there. 

I worry this woman may be a manipulator who knows how to get people to do stuff for her, do what she wants. Moreover, people like that know who to target and no doubt she has assessed that my H is not very assertive - and she's right. 

I have not yet said as much to my H but if the boot were on the other foot and a male neighbour was acting like that towards me, I would be telling my H, without him having to prompt me, that I will not be answering the door to the male neighbour anymore if my H was not home. Also I would be keeping any conversations with such male neighbour very short so as not to encourage him. When men hit on me I make sure I like to bring my H into the conversation to put them off and let them know they are wasting their time. Now do I really need to spell this out for my H? Or is this rocket science or I'm being unreasonable? 

I consciously try to take note that people like myself who have been cheated on in the past can become paranoid and over-worry/over think things so I try to be very careful to keep any potential paranoia on my part under control and give the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully I get the balance right?

I feel like if I outright tell my H not to answer the door to her and not to have any more long conversations I'll be seen as controlling, dictating. 

Not sure of the best approach from this point. :scratchhead:


----------



## Moderate

Simply Amourous

I really like what you posted about Healthy Jealousy - thanks for sharing.

My H is not naturally a talker and we do have communication problems but this is improving (obviously we are not there yet!). Lots of stonewalling from my H in the past but this has been less frequent in the recent years, although it does still happen occasionally.
_
PS: Thanks for the PM_


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## arbitrator

*I know all too well that I have a lot of the KISA tendencies! Sometimes, I can't help but feel that it's just biologically ingrained into a lot of us!*


----------



## EasyPartner

Does anyone see a parallel with the "*acts of service*" from the 5LL?

Is performing these kind of services to women a way for the KISA -maybe also defined as a man whose primary LL is this one- to show he loves/cares?

And "acts of service" may be the most inconspicuous of all 5LL... heck, helping other people, only normal, right?

Motivation? It is a widespread theory that, by performing/displaying various loving/caring acts, the person who displays them also FEELS loved himself... especially if these acts are well received, so then he's even more inclined to repeat them...

What if the KISA's wife's has _receiving_ acts of service on her LL-list? DOUBLE TROUBLE! Because she (1) will recognize what he 's doing and (2) worst thing you can do to someone like that is performing acts of service elsewhere, especially if there are things that aren't done at home...

Suppose all of this is true... then CM's statement that KISA-behaviour can be a real threat to the relationship is very real... and these men should be aware of there own tendencies.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Moderate said:


> Simply Amourous
> 
> I really like what you posted about Healthy Jealousy - thanks for sharing.
> 
> My H is not naturally a talker and we do have communication problems but this is improving (obviously we are not there yet!). Lots of stonewalling from my H in the past but this has been less frequent in the recent years, although it does still happen occasionally.
> _
> PS: Thanks for the PM_


I think the question I really meant to ask last evening was how does your husband responds to your requests for him to do chores at home.

Does he perform his chores at home without complaining?

If he doesn't like working on the lawn and other stuff like that at home, but he's interested in doing " manly stuff" for the lady , that might be a sign of trouble.

If not, then it might be that your past experience is overshadowing this present reality.
That might not be a bad thing if it helps you to be more alert.

But effective communicating feelings imo, is the key.


----------



## Caribbean Man

EasyPartner said:


> Does anyone see a parallel with the "*acts of service*" from the 5LL?
> 
> Is performing these kind of services to women a way for the KISA -maybe also defined as a man whose primary LL is this one- to show he loves/cares?
> 
> And "acts of service" may be the most inconspicuous of all 5LL... heck, helping other people, only normal, right?
> 
> Motivation? It is a widespread theory that, by performing/displaying various loving/caring acts, the person who displays them also FEELS loved himself... especially if these acts are well received, so then he's even more inclined to repeat them...
> 
> *What if the KISA's wife's has receiving acts of service on her LL-list? DOUBLE TROUBLE! Because she (1) will recognize what he 's doing and (2) worst thing you can do to someone like that is performing acts of service elsewhere, especially if there are things that aren't done at home...
> *
> Suppose all of this is true... then CM's statement that KISA-behaviour can be a real threat to the relationship is very real... and these men should be aware of there own tendencies.


:iagree:

And I think it's a kind of paradox.
I don't know a specific way to deal with it because as men , we are generally cultured this way, in varying degrees.

My own thought is to listen to your wife and communicate openly with her. She might feel insecure , but that doesn't mean that shes wrong. In any event, providing for her emotional needs is your first priority.
Lol, but then there's healthy jealousy and unhealthy jealousy.

If you find yourself hiding things from your wife in a situation like this, then that is a red flag.


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## Moderate

Interesting thoughts on 5LL Acts of Service. 

I had always just assumed that someone who naturally gravitated to performing acts of service would like or want to have others perform acts of service for them. In my Husbands case though, he's not at all bothered about people doing stuff for him or not. He's modest when people thank him for doing stuff but deep down I think, like most people, he gets a kick out of others being appreciative of his efforts.


----------



## EasyPartner

Moderate said:


> Interesting thoughts on 5LL Acts of Service.
> 
> I had always just assumed that someone who naturally gravitated to performing acts of service would like or want to have others perform acts of service for them. In my Husbands case though, he's not at all bothered about people doing stuff for him or not. He's modest when people thank him for doing stuff but deep down I think, like most people, he gets a kick out of others being appreciative of his efforts.


Didn't read the book yet but according to a few articles people's LL can vary... some like to express their love in certain LL while liking to receive it in other ways...

I for one am def not a KISA... I won't offer help often if I'm not asked for it (outside the couple that is). Acts of service do not constitute my "giving" LL.

But receiving, that may be a different matter.

Anecdote: my ex-wife wasn't very tidy at home. Often I cooked diner, she couldn't be bothered to put the dirty dishes on the sink in the dishwasher and cleaning lady put them away eventually. I had a lot of shirts too, because when I put one in the laundry (her job), I didn't see it back for a month. 

Not a big deal, all and all. I didn't mind too much, her working full time too and all.

But sometimes, elsewhere, visiting friends for a BBQ for example, all of the sudden she started doing things, helping in the kitchen, cleaning up afterwards, etc... people even asked me if she was always so helpful and tidy. Now THAT pissed me off 

So acts of service may be one of my "receiving" LL? Don't know - touch and affirmation are certainly higher on the list. But in the article it was mentioned that if you want to piss off someone with that particular LL... do exactly as my ex-wife did.


----------



## Moderate

Caribbean Man said:


> I think the question I really meant to ask last evening was how does your husband responds to your requests for him to do chores at home.
> 
> Does he perform his chores at home without complaining?
> 
> If he doesn't like working on the lawn and other stuff like that at home, but he's interested in doing " manly stuff" for the lady , that might be a sign of trouble.
> 
> If not, then it might be that your past experience is overshadowing this present reality.
> That might not be a bad thing if it helps you to be more alert.
> 
> But effective communicating feelings imo, is the key.



Hubs is very good with doing chores at home - quite industrious and doesn't moan. He likes to set his own agenda to get things done and that's fine. 

With neighbour I'm ticked off that she clearly prefers to converse with him when I'm not present.


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## hookares

More than a few "White Knights" end up with one foot in the grave before they discover they were played.


----------



## Wiltshireman

EasyPartner said:


> Motivation? It is a widespread theory that, by performing/displaying various loving/caring acts, the person who displays them also FEELS loved himself... especially if these acts are well received, so then he's even more inclined to repeat them...


I know this is true for me. Being able to do nice things for other people makes me feel good about myself. 

As a family we try and get involved in community projects and even when you come home physically exhausted (as I did after a day using railway sleeper to build raised growing beds for the disabled) there is a feeling of contentment that for me comes from "doing the right thing".


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## jld

If you have healthy boundaries, it is no problem being nice to people.


----------



## star2916

""Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is not about what you describe. What you describe is what happens when two people complement each other.


The "Knight in Shining Armor" thing is about guys who are constantly trying to save some damsel in distress. She's typically not his wife. While his wife has to do all the painting, grass cutting, picture hanging, etc around their house.. he's out being the "knight in shining armor" to the damsels in distress ... these are usually women who he finds attractive and seem to be coming on to him.. though in some cases he's just chasing them without the damsel really showing any interest. ""

YES!!! Correct definition!


----------



## BiscuitMom

This is where my husband seems to be. Over the past 18 months, he has managed to rack up quite a harem of damsels in distress (SEVEN that I know of). Most of them girls that he is helping were met on Craigslist (he seeks them out!) and a few are waitresseses. Most are between ages of 18-25. 

Almost all have drug arrests and other shady stuff when you google them (he doesn't do that). He has helped with rent, phone bills, financial advice, creating resumes and letters of appreciation (fake ones saying they worked for him), big tips, dinner out, helped them get driver's license, find dogs, rented redbox movies for them, etc and rented hotel room for one. Of course, all kinds of computer help (He's IT). Offers to help install nannycams (claims he's an expert!) and beat up abusive husbands. All to the cost of $5000+ in the past year. 

He says he didn't sleep with any, though they offered. I am having him take a polygraph to verify that. 

He tells them sob stories about how I keep the house messy (w/photographic evidence that is a distortion of reality). He tells them he does his own laundry (not in my memory???), cooks his own food (one day a week when I am out), sleeps on the couch (No), and has to jerk off for sex (nope -2-3 times a week and mostly turns me down).

One was told to act casual because he was bringing me to the restaurant (Hooters) and that we were trying to get "back together" -I didn't know we were ever not together in the first place.

Meanwhile -if I have a computer problem, he tells me to "google it." If something breaks, he tells me to call repairman (but we have no money to do so). If I need him to move his stuff that has been in the way for weeks, he doesn't do it. If I stop and spend $8 buying donuts for my daughter and her friends, he yells at me about money. No interest in helping out around our house -even the "manly" stuff like car repairs, yard work, etc. 

For some reason, I was not good enough to be his damsel in distress. 

I tried meeting his needs -sex several times a week, rarely turned him down. he turned me down more often. I tried weekly date nights, lots of notes, gifts, praise, told him I loved him and touched him many times a day (he thought I was trying to show off that I was better than he???) Asked to talk to him many times because I felt something was off. (Was told to shut up, ignored, stonewalled). 

I asked for a divorce after I uncovered what he did. He wants to work it out. We started counseling and I've requested a lie detector test. I'm trying to make it work with him as he seems to finally have snapped into reality of what he is doing (completely different reaction than when I found out about an emotional affair seven years ago. -night and day reaction). I just don't fathom what he did and why. 

A few of my friends have same issue. Their husbands will help any woman in distress but them. It's not about sex either. I just don't get "why?"


----------



## 3Xnocharm

BiscuitMom, you have been on here dealing with this man's bullsh!t since 2009. Time to cut your losses AND him...havent you wasted enough time?


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## NextTimeAround

Would the definition of KISA include a passive agressive husband who purposely goes all out for other women just to piss the wife off?


----------



## WandaJ

EasyPartner said:


> Reading the female imput on this thread, it looks like:
> 
> - it's very much OK for a man to be a white knight;
> 
> - whilst only displaying this quality to his own wife.


were you reading the same thread I have???


----------



## BiscuitMom

3Xnocharm said:


> BiscuitMom, you have been on here dealing with this man's bullsh!t since 2009. Time to cut your losses AND him...havent you wasted enough time?


I am obviously brain damaged or something!

I did ask for a divorce. In fact, the day after I confronted him with all the evidence that I uncovered and spent hours listening him trying to excuse and backpeddle and begging me to give him a chance to change, I sent him the divorce terms and how we would live until I could afford to move out (He'd move to the attic, no sex, equal split of household chores, take care of his own laundry and meals -basically everything that he was telling these girls he was doing anyway lol). That seemed to snap him into reality. When he had an emotional affair, it was me trying to keep him from leaving. Counseling helped a bit but he really didn't change. It was all me changing, etc. this time, I'm just done and we have the opposite effect going on. He is reading books, arranged for counseling (couples and individual), agreed to polygraph, and bending over backwards to meet my needs. He has given me full access to all computers, phones, etc. and been forthcoming whenever any of the above girls have contacted him since I asked for a divorce. He put a GPS on his phone. I did put other things in place that he is not aware of so, I can double check that he's not working around the system. We have talked more in the past two weeks than the past seventeen years. This man who never cries has cried at least a dozen times, begging me not to leave. He has even proposed.

I do care enough for him to want him to take care of his mental issues and since we can't afford to have two households right away, I am here helping him work through this. After all, he will always be the father of my children and I want them to have a healthy father. Meanwhile, I am going on job interviews and have been doing temp work. I have also taken over all control of the bank accounts. He has to sit down with me once a week to reconcile receipts and any cash withdrawn has to have the cash or a receipt to match. All extra money is going toward a personal bank account for me. We have agreed on a set amount going in an account that only have access to that is there so that I can leave anytime and not feel trapped. In addition to counseling, we are having a Sunday couples meeting over coffee in which we discuss our goals for the week, etc. We are also walking/talking twice a week after dinner. We are reading a chapter a night in a relationship book and discussing. Basically, everything I ever wanted our marriage to be is happening right now -He's even taken on daily chore responsibilities. (Except I never wanted a spouse that I had to monitor more closely than my teens!).

We've had a lot of talks about what he did -about the danger of keeping secrets, why I see this as affair even if there was never sex. How he really didn't help these girls because he was just helping them continue doing drugs and living that lifestyle because he was bailing them out of responsibilities. We have discussed how our life would be better if he had put the time, money, and energy that he put into girls who didn't really care about him into me and his kids. If he had moved things here instead of helping some girl move. If he emailed and texted me, flirted with me, talked to me about our problems (especially since I asked-and what bothered him was he had expectations that I was unaware of but easily fixed), took me out to dinner, bought me a mother's day gift and kept money in the account so that I could buy the clothes and make up that I have done without instead of paying other people's bill, and if he came home and spent some time with me instead of being at the bars where they worked or sitting at the office to email them.

We have discussed that he needs to grow up and forget the fantasy. No matter who he marries is going to want him to pick up his stuff, is going to have a day where something is going on in her life that will take her focus away from him, is going to have a day where the dishes cant' be done. None of these girls would have married him, at best he would have gotten meaningless sex, with great risk for disease. They only contacted him when they needed money. They would listen to him complain about his wife and then ask for help to pay the bills. He would have been financially better off paying a counselor to complain about his wife. Women under 25 who have never been married, had children, etc and can't manage their own finances are not the people you need to turn to for advise on your marriage. 

We have done a lot of discussing on helping others. Helping people should be a joint effort, not something that you hide. Helping others should not come at the expense of your family. Helping others should not be put on a credit card!! Helping people does not mean enabling them to keep making the bad choices that got them in their predicament. Goodness sakes -do a background check on who you are helping when it involves a significant amount of money. If they are on drugs, walk away. I am helping him locate ways to help others in a way that blesses our family. I am hoping the counselor helps him find ways to improve his self-esteem so that he doesn't need this false ego validation that he gets from these girls and marriage counselor will help him see that he can (and always could) talk to me. 

He seems to be really trying. I don't know why someone who was so unhappy in his marriage and seemingly wanting a divorce but felt "trapped" by financial obligations would suddenly not want a divorce, especially since I basically gave it to him on a silver platter by not wanting the house, the business, etc. and was willing to have joint custody of the kids. I was even ready to move into a homeless shelter if needed. Why is it that I am suddenly smart, creative, passionate, sexy, beautiful, and interesting, etc.? The only thing that has changed is I put my foot down and said, "This is unacceptable." (well that and I said he was a sick, disgusting individual with no character, no morals, etc.)

Anyway, I am helping him as I can but I refuse to enable him to return to what he was doing. If he wants me, it is on my terms. I hope the changes are real, but I am having a hard time trusting it. For now, I am working on getting myself financially independent and watching and waiting to see if he is for real or not.


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## jld

You are nice to even consider giving him another chance.


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## BellaLoo

Caribbean Man said:


> ...aka the " _White Knight_.
> The " white knight " syndrome is a problem that seems to plague men. It's the idea that certain types of men have where they feel a compulsion to ' help" people , most times women who present themselves as, or whom they view as " _damsels in distress_."
> Absolutely nothing is wrong with helping people who _want to be helped_,but the problem with the white knight is the motive behind his compulsive drive to " help" people.
> His motives usually comes from a place of low self esteem , where he constantly yearns for external validation. In other words, deep down inside , he doesn't think he's a good person and people like him for who he is , so he constantly seeks out people who are broken or _damsels in distress_ to help "fix" them, they shower him with praise and he feels validated.
> The problem with this is that there are also broken women who seek out white knights , and they milk him for all he's worth.
> I have seen quite a few relationships wrecked by women who use white knights.
> If he's married or in a committed relationship, the problem becomes ten times worse because his poor wife is trying to reason with him and he begins to project his insecurity on to her ,telling her that she's acting jealous and insecure ,driving a wedge between them.
> She begins to question her sanity, even though her gut tells her that little Mrs " _damsel in distress / hottie_ " next door or on his work is poaching on her marital territory,whilst he's like a zombie ,entering into affair territory , yearning for some extra external validation.
> I have a lot of empathy for "White Knights". I was almost there myself. I think they should take some time for self-reflection and *save themselves*. It's admirable to want to "step up to the plate" and sometimes "White Knights" really can end up rescuing an appreciative woman . But I would caution anyone who feels the need to "rescue" to step back, take a deep breath, and take stock. *You can't save anyone who doesn't want to save themselves. *
> Stop fooling yourself. Being a "White Knight" is a thankless job that will get you nowhere, and it will put your marriage in serious trouble.
> So how could a man recognize and deal with the white knight tendencies he may have in himself?
> 1] Know that you are a good man and stop depending on strange women outside of your marriage for validation. Work on building a healthy self esteem.You are a good man,not because other women say so, but because you respect yourself, your wife, provide for your family ,love your kids and are a responsible citizen.
> 2]Listen to your wife, even though sometimes she might seem a bit insecure about the relationship, your first duty is to make her feel secure. Helping other women is incidental to you being a good husband and man .
> 3]Your wife is your team mate, treat her opinions as such.If you must help a damsel in distress, then logically , you would need your team mate's input.
> 4]Be honest with yourself. Recognize your boundaries, limitations and weaknesses. Nothing is wrong with going out of your way to help a damsel in distress, but it is morally reprehensible to pretend you're trying to help another woman when your wife at home is unhappy and needs your urgent attention.
> 5] Did I mention LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE?
> This is just a little synopsis of the knight In shining Armor syndrome, and the root causes of it.
> But there is much more and ,
> Your inputs are welcome.
> Feel free to post your thoughts and experiences.


Your post was helpful for me. I am married to someone who suddenly became a White Knight. He was a White Knight for 2 years to a very troubled coworker. She was unhappily married and slept around a lot at work. My husband felt sorry for her and would talk to her about her evil ways. He decided he had to buy her a Christmas gift to make her feel better about herself. He thought it would inspire her. When I found out about this, after the fact, I was livid. He basically focused on her and really felt he was doing good by being emotionally supportive of her. He wasn't emotionally supportive of me. And he was almost always full of excuses when it came to presents for me. When I found out about the gift and the other shenanigans (supposedly no sex) I was devastated. I listened to the nonsense of her just being a friend but meanwhile he never spoke of her at home. I know that he has been unhappy with himself for quite sometime and after reading your post, I can now see that he had some White Knight Syndrome going on, among other things. 
I like how in your post, you basically refer a man to his wife for things and I think that was a great point. My husband's need to help someone outside our marriage has cost us a lot in the long run. We are still together but it is hard to live with the betrayal. 
Thank you for your post.


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