# My story: Separated



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I have been reading these forums for a few weeks now. So here is my story.

I am 39 my wife is 34, we don't have any children. we've been married for 9 years but together for 13. About a year ago we started drifting apart. I began to focus more and more on my work and didn't hang out with people as much, while she began spending more and more time with coworkers and other people. I was emotionally distant, socially unengaged, and it clearly took a toll on our relationship. By the time we entered MC last fall, she had already started an EA with a coworker, though she denies that is what it is, since she says they only talked about appropriate things, and never about her marriage problems or her feelings about the guy. During the past 8 months of marriage counseling, she has remained distant. I was slow to warm up to the counseling myself, seeing her as one of the problems. I am close to completing a degree that will require us to move away from our current location so I can get a job that pays well. She's not too excited about moving with a guy who is distant and unengaged, and leaving her social safety net behind, not to mention this potential other guy.

There were a lot of flare ups over the past 8 months, but about a month ago things came to a head when I talked with her EA man and told him to back off. My wife packed some of her things and left, saying I had emotionally abused her. I definitely blamed her for most of our problems and didn't really see my own self-centered actions clearly until recently. She still talks to the other guy since I can check my phone records and see that. I am in IC and working on making new friends. It hurts a lot. I have lost 15 pounds or so (I am in good health and physical condition, but 15 pounds is a lot for my frame).

She and I talk periodically, but I have limited my contact with her for now. I canceled going to a party we were both invited to and went to a friends in another city for the weekend instead. I was afraid I'd see her there talking to that other guy or even afraid she'd just ignore me basically. No need to go through that kind of pain. We were supposed to have lunch today to talk, but I canceled that as well to stay away, as I was afraid I'd just be grumpy and unpleasant. No need to let her see I am upset is my thinking.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Its a good idea to limit your contact or even have no contact if possible. You don't want her to see you upset. Its for the best - think of your well being. Take care of yourself - the weight loss thing happened to me too. I couldn't eat. 2 weeks after he left I realized I lost 14 lbs - I had to force myself to eat at least something 3 times a day. Just try to eat something - you may keep loosing (I did- I'm down 40lbs now) because of the stress but if you're eating & keep up your energy it will help you.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

One of my coping mechanisms over the past year was sometimes to walk away from our arguments or not talk to her for hours at a time (a silent treatment). It was a really ****ty thing to do, and my IC has helped me realize that I was unable to express emotion appropriately and used passive silence as a form of anger to stuff down my feelings.

Having limited and no contact feels a little like that unhealthy behavior sometimes...

Good to know others lost weight too. I workout and run, so it has taken a toll on my routine in that regard too.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Well its good to keep working out to get rid of stress.

While you were married & working on things the silent treatment is no good. You need to communicate ( that was a huge mistake in my marriage and pretty sure it was the root of our issues) but if you're seperated & shes with someone else its time for n/c. You'll see that advice time & time again on these boards.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I have seen that. She's not living with the guy, she's living with a coworker and his wife. But she has been in contact with this other guy, I can see it on our cell records. Brief calls. before we separated I demanded she stop all non-work contact with the guy or I would walk. Instead she walked. I realize now that it appeared to her as an issue of control on my part the way I demanded things. Yet, I can't see how she could re-engage while thinking about another guy.

But she walked; she decided to stay in contact with him; she is the one who is unwilling to work on our marriage at present. So if she wants space, I should just give her all the space I can and cut contact. She wanted to talk about financial stuff sometime this week. We both have our own incomes. Combined we could afford our apartment, but I will probably need to move to a smaller place in a few months if this drags out or whatnot.

No contact is going to be hard....does that mean not answering emails or anything?


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Yeah - nothing - if you need to talk about financial issues -fine but no personal issues. It will be better for you.
You had every right to demand no contact between her & the other guy. You couldn't sit there & let that happen while you were living together. I'm sure you both made mistakes in your marriage but she chose to get involved with someone else- that's 100% her choice. Now its time to worry about you.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Arendt said:


> No contact is going to be hard....does that mean not answering emails or anything?


In your situation the only contact I would have with her is what benefits you by getting her out of your life.

If you need to split financials, who gets what and when.

Anything that doesn't directly relate to business is to be ignored.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

What do you know about this other man?

Is he married?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks.I stopped saying "I love you" about a week ago after reading "Divorce Remedy" and realizing she never said it. I sent her two emails once and she said I seemed "desperate" so I quit initiating emails and don't say much in them.

She told me last week that she wants out, but doesn't trust her feelings because they could change. And that my changes are happening really fast, which is "disconcerting." MY IC said that my 180 has probably confused her because I am closer to the guy she wanted to be married to.

Thanks for the feedback...I'll do an email exchange on financial stuff. She should probably help pay the rent for a couple months since she walked so suddenly. Then again, I am not sure I want her money.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

tacoma said:


> What do you know about this other man?
> 
> Is he married?


No he is single. He's a very similar man to me, except 6 years younger. Same likes, same politics, same religion, same career trajectory. If it came known he was doing something wrong, he works at a place that would probably not tolerate it. He just moved to this area last summer. She latched onto him quick.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Just take care of yourself. These boards have been a tremendous help to me & they can be for you so keep reading & posting.


----------



## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Arendt said:


> One of my coping mechanisms over the past year was sometimes to walk away from our arguments or not talk to her for hours at a time (a silent treatment). It was a really ****ty thing to do, and my IC has helped me realize that I was unable to express emotion appropriately and used passive silence as a form of anger to stuff down my feelings.
> 
> Having limited and no contact feels a little like that unhealthy behavior sometimes....


You want to be a bit careful about that. 

A lot of people will give you a shopping list of dos and don't for the 180 - and going silent is one of them. However, if you go back to the source (or at least one of the sources - Michele Weiner-Davis) she describes the 180 as doing the opposite of what you have done before - because after all that didn't work. So if the silent treatment didn't work and was one of your core behaviours, you might want to think about behaving differently. That may not be different behaviour towards her, it could be different behaviour towards other people that she can observe. So, for example, perhaps you can push yourself to be more sociable and outgoing, but to do it in where she can see it. Maybe you should go to some social function where she will be, line up one or two friends in advance if you can to make sure that you remain lively, upbeat and outgoing during the event. And if you see her don't blank her, just give her a friendly "hi, how's it going? I'm having a great time" and move on. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Voltaire,

Thanks so much for your input. I think I agree with you. Last week I canceled a couple phone check-ins with her and then this weekend went away. This morning she sent me an email that seemed like she was a little annoyed, so I went to her job for lunch and we talked about our financial issues and some other things. It was a good conversation and I am glad I did so, because she did think I was trying to give her the silent treatment again.

The reason she had called the OM this weekend was because she had been invited to a dinner party in his building with their mutual friends (a "seder meal"). He was there too apparently. 

She told me that she is not attracted to him, and that she is reading "Codependent No More" and asked me to read the chapter titled "Undependence" because it describes where she is at very well. She said she is not sure she has it in her to be in any relationship right now and be healthy because she is realizing her codependency issues.

I told her I am trying to get to a place where I do not need her in my life, that I can move on and be fine. But that I still love her and want her in my life. I also offered to apologize to her mother for not speaking with her very often and generally being absent and for the way I have treated her daughter. She started crying when I offered to do that. I have not gotten along well with my in-laws; they didn't want us to get married really, and that has always colored my perception of her mother and sister. Made me stand-offish rather than trying to be engaged with them. 

I also told her that if she wants to work on our marriage I am willing to see a MC, but we have to get a new one because our current MC also sees her individually and I don't think that is a healthy way to go about things. The MC cannot have objectivity. I would not want my IC to be our MC as well. She said she would think about that. 

So I don't think no contact is going to work for me right now for the reasons you state Voltaire.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You are talking way too much to her.

Focusing on her every twitch.

What you need to do is set healthy boundaries and work on you - without telling her a thing.

Are you in therapy?

If you aren't, why not?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I am in counseling. Also in Emotions Anonymous now working the 12 step program. 

Currently reading, "How to Win Friends" by Dale Carnegie to help me become a bit nicer of a person to other folks, since I tend to withdraw and ignore people. Good book. 

In general, I like the direction my life is starting to take since our separation.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you doing any work on boundaries?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Not in IC. But I no longer email her personal things, nor do I say "I love you" to her unless she has said it to me first. Also, I will not go to events she is at if I feel that I will be in a position to act out of anger or something. I did that this weekend. Also canceled a lunch with her on Sunday and stayed away with a friend because I did not feel like I would be able to interact without making matters worse or something, acting out of my negative emotions rather than the more positive direction my life is headed.

So that sort of thing.

What would you suggest Conrad?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Codependents have notoriuosly poor boundaries.

Your backstory indicates that's where you fell down in the relationship.

If you had good healthy boundaries, this guy would never have threatened your relationship and you'd have never blamed him - instead of your wife - for her behavior.

Have you ever read Robert Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hmmm...her IC said she is codependent. I read several chapters of Codependent No More and don't see myself in it too much. Most people would probably not call me a "nice guy" to be honest  But I'll take a look. 

I don't answer the phone from her if she calls out of the blue. We schedule calls. I answer her emails, but I take a full day to respond, which irritates her already, but I want to slow down my responses.

"If you had good healthy boundaries, this guy would never have threatened your relationship and you'd have never blamed him - instead of your wife - for her behavior."

My IC did note this as well...he has not brought it back up with me yet. Maybe I'll speak with him about it tomorrow at counseling. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Hmmm...her IC said she is codependent. I read several chapters of Codependent No More and don't see myself in it too much. Most people would probably not call me a "nice guy" to be honest  But I'll take a look.
> 
> I don't answer the phone from her if she calls out of the blue. We schedule calls. I answer her emails, but I take a full day to respond, which irritates her already, but I want to slow down my responses.
> 
> ...


https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

thanks for the link. I am reading it now. At first I did not see myself in the list of nice guy characteristics, but there are things for me to learn from it. I see myself in the not so nice things for sure...


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So I have read most of the No More Mr. Nice Guy book. It doesn't really describe me. I don't generally try to please people or use attachments to get approval. I tend toward arrogance and self-absorption...I took a narcissism characteristics test online and scored a couple points higher than celebrities. I tend to ignore people, not get them to pay attention to me (unless I think they have something to offer). Those are the things I am working on. The Nice Guy book had a couple small things in it for me to think about personally, but all in all, I tend toward another fault. I need to be more social and actually care about what other people are interested in, make some actual friends and be social for a change. 

I spoke with my therapist today and we talked about what I learned from my mother about women, and I had never really thought about some of the things I just absorbed growing up. Quite shocking to me. I was often sheltered from consequences was a big learning among other things.

Made me wonder what I have learned about being a male too. My dad was an unemotional disciplinarian, the sole provider for the family and largely unattached, no friends. Never taught me very much about anything. 

So the book was interesting to me in that I am interested in views of masculinity and such right now.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So I think I am more on board with the no contact or at least limited contact suggestion in this thread. Because I think that no contact at all would be counter-productive and seem like a silent treatment, I decided to set some boundaries for myself. . This week I canceled our planned Easter lunch, and simply said other plans came up. After Tuesday when I talked with her face to face we had only one other phone call for 30 minutes on Thursday. I let her do the talking and such.

So here are the boundaries I came up with:

1. No regular face-to-face meetings. Try to avoid them for now.
2. No daily check-in calls from her. Keep them to once a week.
3. When we talk, let her do most of the talking and say what she has been up to and other things she may want to say.
4. Ask her open-ended questions to keep her talking about her week or thoughts.
5. Affirm any positive changes she makes.
6. If she becomes critical of me or others, respond with "I am sorry you feel that way"
7. Do not reveal my schedule with any detail.
8. Do not reveal what I am learning with any detail.
9. Have a positive and fairly cheerful attitude when I talk with her; don't let her know if I am upset.
10. Do not talk about my feelings with her.
11. Do not offer her advice.
12. Do not invite her to do anything with me.

Those are the general boundaries that I came up with to help me focus on myself and not obsess too much about the state of our marriage and such. 

I am in support groups, counseling, have weekly lunches or meetings with friends, working on my spirituality, and am taking up new hobbies and working out regularly. I got a new tattoo yesterday even! I don't plan to tell her about it. 

In addition, she wants to evaluate this separation with her IC at the end of the month. Her IC was also our MC. She had wanted me to go as well, but I have said I am not comfortable with that and she should use the time to see her IC on her own (it will be her first IC session in a month since her IC is on vacation). If she wants to return at any point, she will ahve to agree to sit with me and discuss the EA and answer anything I have to ask, as well as agree to cut contact with him since I feel completely disrespected by her continued contact with him, even if she were to say it was over. I also want a new MC that can give us a fresh perspective and that neither of us have went to for IC.

How does this stuff sound? Any thoughts?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

This sounds exactly right.

Keep us up to date on what you encounter and how it feels.

Remember to remain @50,000 feet and do not get sucked into arguments with her.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Be careful with 3 & 4. I let my WH do the talking when we have to speak about issues & he always goes into something personal about himself - he isn't feeling well or his job is sending him away - things that if we were still together I would feel bad for him. You have to make yourself aware that it may happen in your case. I let mine speak - I act cordial - but I don't give him the pity he is looking for.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I bought the book "Not 'Just Friends'" today and started reading it. My wife denies that her EA was anything serious because she didn't have sex with the guy or, in her words, talk about her marriage problems with him or reveal her attraction. Yet, she invited him over when I was not home, she went to his place when nobody else was there, gift-wrapped his office for Christmas, talked to him on the phone when I was not home, and other such things. 

I am hoping the book offers some help to me. At first I was really mad at the other man, not as much with my wife. Now, with some distance, I see her actions more clearly and such. I blamed myself for being emotionally unavailable, socially isolated and such. All that is true, but her doing this only exacerbated my issues and makes reconciliation all the harder. With her in denial, I have frankly come to the conclusion over this weekend that I don't want her back unless she works on herself as I am working on myself and comes clean about this stuff.

She called me today out of the blue. I had canceled a lunch appointment with her so she called to "see how I was doing." I implemented my boundaries and simply said, "I am busy right now we will have to talk later." It felt good to not be at her beck and call. I was in fact, reading the book I bought while in Barnes and Nobles. I plan to send her a short email later that says which day of this week I would be open to a phone call. That should signal to her that I am open to talking, but only on a scheduled basis, and only once during this week. 

I am unsure whether to simply be forthright about my desire to only have once a week conversations or to just let it play out. I don't want to get into a conversation about the EA over the phone. She is papering it over. If I bring it up on the phone it will be mess I think. She blames me mostly for our marriage being in such disrepair. I had my 50% part to play, and maybe more. But I am working on those issues, becoming more other focused and less self-centered. I don't really see the same coming the other way.

So that is where I am at today...

Thanks smallsteps for the advice on not feeding any pity fishing.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Rather than allow things to kind of fall down as they will I am thinking of sending the following note to my wife to begin a no contact time. What do you think? My IC thinks I should basically go no contact and give her the space she desires and work on myself. He said that I should not worry about her interpretation of my actions, but worry about myself at this point. She'll have to deal with stuff herself and with her own counselor.



Hi ------,

We can talk this Thursday, but I wanted to send this note first. First I want to reaffirm my love and concern for you. Not only that, but I am concerned about our marriage and hope that we can continue it in the future. You wanted time apart to work on your issues and to get some space from our relationship. That has been a good thing for me. I am becoming emotionally, spiritually, and socially stronger as a result of being forced to deal with my issues. I now have a strong and wise support network, especially in AA and my counselor. I hope that our separation is and will be a good thing for you too. 

But I will not be able to have weekly phone check-ins nor will I be able to continue to attend church with you at this time. I do not think it is in my best interest spiritually to continue to pursue being a part of that community when we are separated. I will need to find my own spiritual home. 

As for contact, it is not in my best interest to have continued contact with you so regularly. I have been thinking about this for several weeks. I am not trying to give you a silent treatment. Talking with you and communicating with you is difficult for me, and I would like to honor and respect the separation that you sought and that I also need to work on myself. 

If at some point you want to work on our marriage, we can see a new marriage counselor together. But it will take some convincing on your part for me to be part of that. One of the things I am concerned about is your continued non-work contact with [OM]. Emotional affairs are just as devastating to our marriage as any other kind, and I don't see a lot of hope for ultimate reconciliation as long as you are not respecting boundaries with other men. I have heard what you said about the nature of that attraction and relationship; but it still constitutes an emotional affair. And it is not the first time in our marriage; this one just happened at a very bad time in it.

Again, I am willing to work on our marriage at some point in the future and I love you. I am working on my own issues and feel better every day. I will survive and thrive regardless of what happens between us.

I will not wait for you forever. This apartment lease ends at the end of August, and I plan to move out at that time and move on with my life if things are not moving in a different direction for us by then.

We can talk this Thursday about any business type thing such as the phone bill, but nothing beyond that type of thing.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Do not do this.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Why not?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Why not?


It establishes you firmly as Plan B.

Everything in it says she's free to experiment with anything/anyone she likes and you'll be waiting patiently at the end of it.

Much more effective to go dark without warning.

When she asks (which is when she'll be ready to listen), you simply say, "I'm not ok with your relationship with posOM"


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Okay, I can see that. Definitely not what I wanted to communicate :scratchhead: 

I'll throw out this idea then and just keep things to business related type stuff on the phone this week as well as communicate that I won't spent time with her on Sundays. 

I am not sure how to bring up this EA thing and how non-negotiable her continued contact with this OM is for me. Maybe I don't need to bring it up. I am not sure. It is definitely a contentious issue as she denies it is anything wrong.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's why you're separated.

It's a huge deal.

Don't underestimate it.

The letter you wrote was well done - and would be very persuasive to a man in telling him how dedicated you are to him as a friend, partner, co-project lead, whatever.

She's not a man.

She communicates emotionally - and that's how she receives it.

She would see your letter as a sales pitch - and worse - as permission this this EA is fine and dandy to explore.

It's not.

You're drastically reduced presence in her life will give her space to miss you.

My advice would be to simply stop doing everything you do in support of her.

Who is paying her bills right now?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah...I am not. It is not the first time either. Several years ago she went to another country for a conference. I read in her diary while doing some snooping about this other guy that she also went there because she had a crush on a guy in that country that we both know. She stayed with him.

That is a great length to go to to pursue an infatuation. She never told me about it. I found out only because I read her diary, which she was really pissed about, called a "stalker" for reading it and checking our phone logs. That is bull**** though. I trusted her completely to go to another country on her own. She betrayed that trust in my view.

Maybe I should just leave these issues alone for now and only talk business with her...if she contacts me to say she'd like to go to MC, then bring it up...if she doesn't...

I've been telling people we know that we are separated but taking all the blame. I am not sure I should confess her part in this. I was distant. I was a workaholic and sometimes cold and blaming. If I told some of these people about the EA, they know the OM, they know her, some of them work with them both. It could get kind of ugly. So I am not really ready to do that kind of thing. I am not sure what the OM's real role here is and whether he really encouraged this actively. She seems to be the pursuer, not him. Anyway.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She pays her own bills. In fact, she is living with a couple and paying no bills at present. She and I have equal incomes as far as that goes. So she can and does take care of herself. I was saving my income over the past year to pay school debt, but now I have to use some of that savings and my current income to pay monthly bills.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It takes two.

Do not own her part.

She's responsible for that.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for your input on this Conrad. I'd have made a big mistake here without your input and without this forum.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Tonight I spoke to my wife for about 8 minutes. She tried to talk with me about how my day has been. I redirected us to business stuff about our phone plans (separating the bill). She said she saw me this week and noticed I had trimmed my dreadlocks pretty short (I cut about 2 feet from them!). I said yes I had, and left it at that. 

She wanted to know if we would still be spending some time together on Sundays, and I told her that I did not feel a need to check in with her every week.

She wanted to stop by my apartment tomorrow to pick up some gift certificates she would like to use, so I told her I'd find them and bring drop them off at her office with a receptionist. I sent her an email when I could not find them, and also asked for her apartment key and our car key (she has never gotten a driver's license as she is originally from a city with great public transportation and where a car is a liability). I also asked her to cancel my name on a joint credit card account.

I was probably colder than I should have been. I was not mean or anything, just matter of fact. She has been that way with me in the past, now all of a sudden she wants to be chummy and have more contact.

I did not bring up the OM or her continued contact with him. Part of me feels like I should have connected all this to that.


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Sounds like you handled it pretty well.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Tonight I spoke to my wife for about 8 minutes. She tried to talk with me about how my day has been. I redirected us to business stuff about our phone plans (separating the bill). She said she saw me this week and noticed I had trimmed my dreadlocks pretty short (I cut about 2 feet from them!). I said yes I had, and left it at that.
> 
> She wanted to know if we would still be spending some time together on Sundays, and I told her that I did not feel a need to check in with her every week.
> 
> ...


This was perfect.

You bring up those things when she asks.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Actually, she emailed me saying that she will not give me her car key, even though the car is in my name because she paid for the car and wants it transferred to her name. She also said that she will not give me her key because some of her stuff is still here and she is planning to look at an apartment tomorrow (new information to me), and until her stuff is out she will keep it. Also she will come to this apartment tomorrow and get her certificates since I cannot find them. And also said that to paraphrase, she "hoped we could do this without treating each other like strangers, but I guess I am wrong." She's apparently been planning to get an apartment, refusing contact with OM too.

I phoned her, and we got into a small spat and she hung up, then she emailed me saying if I am not civil she will not talk to me.

On the phone I said she had been in an emotional affair with OM and her continued contact was unacceptable. She hung up and sent the email.

Is it lawyer time?


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Avoid the spats.

You were doing great until she sucked you in.

If she has OM then yes visit the lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Aaahh- the word "civil" reminds me of my own case. The night he left - when I got upset by what he was saying - he told me he didn't want "hysterics" then 3 weeks later when he called in response to an e mail I sent he kept telling me throughout the conversation he just wanted us to be "civil" I think he repeated it 10 times.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> On the phone I said she had been in an emotional affair with OM and her continued contact was unacceptable. She hung up and sent the email.
> 
> Is it lawyer time?


Did she ask you?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

No she did not. We just now talked on the phone for an hour and a half and she answered any and all questions I had about the whole thing. She was reluctant at first, and angry, then she was crying and all sort of stuff, going back and forth between those I guess.

She told me how often they had seen each other alone (once a week in the beginning for lunches...then later he backed off and they had none), why she pursued him (she was lonely), how often they have seen each other since our separation (they had lunch, she told me what they talked about), and that she is still attracted to him but that she avoids being with him alone and is very careful in her interactions at work with him. There have been times he is there at a gathering of mutual friends. 

She said she was unsure about the conversation, unsure of the power dynamics involved. She's reading Codependent No More and said that the work she has been doing has to do with making sure she does thing cause she wants to, not to please me, and she is unsure how that conversation plays out in that dynamic. Her IC is on vacation till the end of the month, so it is hard for her to process with the IC. She said she decided to look for an apartment this week, because the idea of trying to live on her own made her happy, rather than depending on other people and trying to please them.

I feel like she was honest about things and it cleared the air about the whole thing to a large degree. But I get the sense that she's bent on a long exploration of who she is as a person, what makes her happy, and doing that alone, separated, with no resolution of our marriage in sight. That seems to be her plan.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you want her, you must stop this.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah...might be too late. Rather than her coming to me and asking me what is up, I forced the issue, and she feels violated...like I pushed her to do it.

I'll just back off and not contact her about anything...

It was tough not to get sucked in to her angry emails, one of which said she was ending our marriage over email...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah...might be too late. Rather than her coming to me and asking me what is up, I forced the issue, and she feels violated...like I pushed her to do it.
> 
> I'll just back off and not contact her about anything...
> 
> It was tough not to get sucked in to her angry emails, one of which said she was ending our marriage over email...


And, you gave yourself permission to do something you know wasn't the best "because" of what she did.

That's actually blameshifting.

You are responsible for you.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Keep in mind - despite the crap you see in the popular culture, relationships rarely end on one mistake.

You're likely to get plenty of chances/tests with her.

Be ready next time.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah. It is pretty hard to take responsibility for my own actions. "She made me do it" kind of logic isn't exactly helpful to me. I was hurting about the whole thing and pushed the issue pretty hard and too fast, on my terms, rather than letting her come forward in her time, which is what she needs with the whole codependency thing. What I need is to realize I am not in control of things...powerless over life to a large degree, only responsible for my reaction to events. (First step...I have a lot of work to do).

Ughhh...I f'ed this up. I got most of the answers I wanted, but the atmosphere around it was not one of relief for being honest, but her feeling like I controlled the situation and forced her into it. 

She left the conversation by saying, "talk to you whenever." This type of conversation will never be easy, but it probably should not end with her feeling like I just pulled a power-trip, which I did. Control issues are a big thing for me, and I know it. I knew I had her backed against a wall, and I pushed the issue.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brother,

Forgive yourself.

This subforum is about gathering your personal power and getting it right next time.

And, we're not biased about whether this time means this relationship or the next one.

So relax.

And, get centered.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Slept on it. Worked out on it too.

It is going to be hard not to try and contact her first over the next few days or weeks. But I suppose the advice is to let her make the first move toward contact, right? Other than that, continue with IC, 12 step groups, working out, friends, journaling, etc...


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Got an email from her this morning.

She was pissed about the conversation last night, saying I victimized her. 

She said she will go ahead and get a new apartment and move out completely at the end of the month. That she will get a new phone number, and not give me her new one. That she is uninviting me to her birthday part next month because it is a way of celebrating herself and I am not conducive to that. And she will talk to her counselor at the end of the month to see what her next steps are.

I am not going to respond yet since I have no idea what to say at all.


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

"I Am Sorry You Feel This Way"

She's trying to get you to engage in more of her non sense.

Don't fall for the trap - its never ending and you'll lose every time if you engage in that game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah....She compared my questions to her mother punching her when she lived at home. Geez.

I asked her if she wanted to have coffee this afternoon and she said, no, but we could have lunch on Sunday as we had committed to weeks ago.

what a mess.


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Arendt said:


> I asked her if she wanted to have coffee this afternoon and she said, no.




You're setting yourself up for these rejections.

1. No regular face-to-face meetings. Try to avoid them for now.

Remember? Only if SHE asks and you're OK with it.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I break my own boundaries. Does it count that she said we could have lunch on Sunday, or should I just say we should wait for now?


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Send her a text Sunday morning saying sorry you can't make it to lunch.


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Send her a text Sunday morning saying sorry you can't make it to lunch.


GP, is on it.

It'll raise her curiosity.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Or perhaps I could give her the number of a MC and say the next time we meet should be at an appointment with her (she will want a woman), and she can make the appointment...just a thought. I think sending a message late Saturday or early Sunday would just piss her off and make her more irritated with me.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Or perhaps I could give her the number of a MC and say the next time we meet should be at an appointment with her (she will want a woman), and she can make the appointment...just a thought. I think sending a message late Saturday or early Sunday would just piss her off and make her more irritated with me.


Who cares? If she does get pi$$y, do 
not answer the text. Remember your busy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Or perhaps I could give her the number of a MC and say the next time we meet should be at an appointment with her (she will want a woman), and she can make the appointment...just a thought.


No. SHE has to ask. 

Your job here is to empower yourself. She is irrelevant in your life until SHE wants to be a part of it again.

Everything that you're thinking about doing now, will only drive her away. 

You sound like ReGroup, only a few months back.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Alright then. Not sure how MC mediator would drive her away, but I'll trust your judgment. She doesn't text, so I'll have to send an email tomorrow evening.

She basically said, I guess, get out of my life.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Alright then. Not sure how MC mediator would drive her away, but I'll trust your judgment. She doesn't text, so I'll have to send an email tomorrow evening.
> 
> She basically said, I guess, get out of my life.


MC needs to be her bright idea.

She said get out of her life then give her what she wants. 

I know it's hard but it must be done.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I went ahead and sent her an email that said I will not be able to make it on Sunday, and that I read her email as "get out of my life" so I will do that.

I will not respond to her if she replies (knock on wood!). It won't be as hard as I think...I have built a support network over the last 6 weeks, have some routines, have friends to spend time with, hobbies to engage and some work to do. 

Perhaps I should consult with a lawyer to check my options. We have little in way of assets, being anarcho-socialist types. But there is a car and furniture and such. Just to see what is possible but not to act or to tell her I did it or anything.


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Yeah I went ahead and sent her an email that said I will not be able to make it on Sunday, and that I read her email as "get out of my life" so I will do that.


GP advised you to send it that very morning.

In regards to responding to "get out of my life" and saying you will. NEVER SAY, JUST DO!


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Yeah I went ahead and sent her an email that said I will not be able to make it on Sunday, and that I read her email as "get out of my life" so I will do that.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah put myself right back in the triangle didn't I? She'll likely deny she played the oppressor role and didn't actually say get out, or say read it how I want, and take the victim role back herself.

Ahhh...what a game. 15 words too much.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Yeah put myself right back in the triangle didn't I? She'll likely deny she played the oppressor role and didn't actually say get out, or say read it how I want, and take the victim role back herself.
> 
> Ahhh...what a game. 15 words too much.


Especially when you only needed 6


----------



## Jntrs (Feb 13, 2013)

you have no kids together, i believe no contact should be easier each day that goes by


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

No kids. Just two cats :smthumbup:

I am going to go run a 5K in a half hour or so with a friend she works with. He's been a friend of mine for a while, I helped him write part of his dissertation, so we should be able to have some good chats. He doesn't know we are separated yet.

Reading through gutpunch's thread...wow, what a long one! 

This is ****ing hard, with or without kids. She realized when she was about 30 that she had been molested as a child. She told me when we first got married and I didn't want to hear it. I didn't think people could forget something like that. Now I do. She's bringing it up again, how I wouldn't listen to her back then; how her mom hit her, etc. I think I am becoming the scapegoat for all her past pain. She's rewrote our marriage history as one big mistake: she was too young; not ready; did it for the wrong reasons; blah blah. 

All victim language. No contact. I can't be her punching bag right now. It hurts to have no contact, it hurts to have her around too. One day I am fine, one day I am really happy, one day I am down in the dumps, the latter usually after I have contact like we had last night and this morning. All my friends are at work so it is hard to call anybody. Just waiting for that 5K. I am going to pull a muscle out there I am so pumped! Went to the gym to lift earlier. 

I should get another tattoo...I want this guy to do my next work: Urban Primitive - Tattoos in the style of Black and Grey


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Arendt said:


> This is ****ing hard, with or without kids. She realized when she was about 30 that she had been molested as a child. She told me when we first got married and I didn't want to hear it. I didn't think people could forget something like that. Now I do. She's bringing it up again, how I wouldn't listen to her back then; how her mom hit her, etc. I think I am becoming the scapegoat for all her past pain. She's rewrote our marriage history as one big mistake: she was too young; not ready; did it for the wrong reasons; blah blah.


She's going to continue to dump on you, as long as you let her. 

You're no longer available for any of that nonsense. "I am sorry you feel that way"... and say no more. It works. 

No contact - live it.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

arendt said:


> or perhaps i could give her the number of a mc and say the next time we meet should be at an appointment with her (she will want a woman), and she can make the appointment...just a thought. I think sending a message late saturday or early sunday would just piss her off and make her more irritated with me.


No, no, no

quit worrying about her reaction

do what is best for you

You are arguing for the victim chair with every sentence.

Read this - and stop.

http://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I realize I pulled the victim card now. Hard to see it in the moment. No contact. I am committed. I will not email or call her. Won't respond to messages at this point either. For a few days I thought I was doing really well. 

Thanks to you-all for your input...seems like I needed to experience the pain first hand to get that you are giving me sound advice. I'm backing off, no pursuit at all. No contact means no contact. I need to dig deeper into myself, deepen my social network, my spirituality, my IC and such. Lots of work to do without busying myself about her...

Now if I can just live the thought :scratchhead:


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Got an email last night, saw it this morning. One part saying she wanted me to say more than "I am sorry you feel that way" to her long letter, pointing out that she also took responsibility for some thing along with blaming me. 

The other part doing more blaming and what I predicted about my extra words I got a lashing for on here (I'll get out of your life). Was a dumb mistake that opened the door to stuff. 

She also said that she'd like to meet face to face next week or talk on the phone.

I'm going to leave that email alone. I don't need to respond, not yet.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Now you are starting to get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Anxiety symptoms have returned. Tight stomach and chest this morning. I am going to up my dose of anti-depressants from the 75mg to 150. Doc said I might need to do that sometime. Damn, I thought I was past those. Physical anxiety is the worst feeling ever. Like death at any moment.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Anxiety symptoms have returned. Tight stomach and chest this morning. I am going to up my dose of anti-depressants from the 75mg to 150. Doc said I might need to do that sometime. Damn, I thought I was past those. Physical anxiety is the worst feeling ever. Like death at any moment.


Bupropion?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Effexor.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Effexor.


150mg is the typical adult dose


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah. Doctor wanted me to try 75mg first to see what happened. For the past month that dose worked well. Now the symptoms are returning. 

Might need to cut my coffee consumption down a bit more too. In addition, my body is sore from working out this week a bit more than I have in the past year (every day weightlifting in addition to my four days of running, plus a short race this week). That might be part of it too. I won't cut back the workouts though.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Anxiety all day. Sucks. Symptoms went away this evening when I started thinking about the First Step in AA: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable"

I realized that step 12, which says we practice these principles in all our affairs applies to my situation. So step one: I am powerless over my anxiety, and my life is unmanageable. I sat around and tried to sleep all day, feeling depressed as well. Got my ass up and went out for a while tonight. While out I journaled about the first step and how it might apply to my situation beyond wanting to drink to cover up the emotional and physical pain. 

I am not only powerless over anxiety, but I am powerless over my wife, and my life has become unmanageable because I have tried to control her. I should not have pushed the E.A. thing and pushed her to answer my questions when she is not ready to do so. It did not help me at all. Now my anxiety is back, she's decided to get an apartment and all sorts of other stuff, sending me spiteful and angry, blaming emails. I'm moping around like a imbecile. 

What a pathetic situation. 

Thinking about my powerlessness over her and my anxiety though actually helps, in some ironic way. It is kind of relieving to know I am not responsible for her actions and that I cannot will away my anxiety. Stop fighting it, and let it be (take the meds of course, but stop mentally fighting). 

I did not respond to her latest email as I said I would not. I am going to take that one day at a time. I didn't respond today. Hopefully I will not respond tomorrow. Part of me feels like ignoring that latest email will seem to her like I am giving her the silent treatment again. But, again, I am powerless over her reactions. I cannot control her. Trying to worry about her response to my nonresponse will just make matters worse for me. More anxiety, more worry, and if I respond, I am sure to reward blaming behavior at best and at worst inflame the situation more.

One of the reasons things blew up is because I responded to an angry email she sent me Thursday evening, turning the tables on her with the E.A. and she better answer my questions bit. So a healthy boundary here would probably be that if she sends me an angry, blaming email I will not respond. I can respond to something positive, but not to that other nonsense.

Somehow these thoughts have helped me tonight to get by so far. First Step: admit my powerlessness and the resultant unmanageability from my controlling behaviors. Very hard, but helpful.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Another day gone and I have not answered the email she sent Friday night, nor attempted to contact her in any way. I still find myself trying to justify contact though. I have thoughts still that basically say I was at fault, both recently and in the past, and I should try to make up for it. I also have thoughts that if I let go I am giving up on the marriage, as well as the idea that somehow it would be better to work on the marriage than just be silent.

I was definitely at fault, but she has been too. She left. She is in contact with another man still even though she says she is being careful. Yeah right.

She doesn't want to work on our marriage or we would not be separated. If she wanted to work on the marriage, she would not have left. That is the reality of the situation. Any push from me to work on things, as I did the other night, is just going to create more resentment in her and make me feel bad too.

Just because I do not initiate contact over a blaming email, or even any contact at all right now, does not mean I am necessarily giving up. I am trying to break my own bad habits and thought patterns. 

I am noticing I have to fight rationalizations with a reality check, which is hard, because I am not exactly in a place where I am thinking really clearly about my wife in particular. I'm getting better at it, I suppose. All of the rationalizations I bring up have to do with trying to control the situation somehow, and not recognizing that I am powerless and have to just live with that reality and see it as a freedom, not a hindrance. Powerlessness doesn't have to be a bad thing...it is simply reality.

I had some anxiety today. Not as intense, but still had chest and stomach tightness, increased heart rate, and a dry mouth at various points (it comes and goes). Once again, when the symptoms would start to show and persist I tried telling myself I was powerless over this, and that does help. At the very least the reminder keeps me from making it worse by panicking and obsessing about the symptoms too. I also went for a long bike ride which was fun.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Hang in there. NC is about detachment and working
on you. Stick to your guns. She may never come back.
It is out of your control. You need to focus on you.
The bike ride was a start.

I went NC with my wife for over 3 months.

One weekend is just a warmup
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

No contact today. Didn't even consider it. Wasted most of the day on Facebook, since it is the first time I ever signed up for an account. Friend of mine encouraged me to go ahead and do it. It is kind of dumb. But it was a nice distraction. 

Also looking for artwork to replace photos I took down from the walls a few weeks ago. Thinking how I can redecorate a little without spending too much, so that the place just feels different and not like it did when we were together. Artwork can cost a bundle, but it is an investment I suppose. I got a couple pieces last week that are nice.

No anxiety symptoms at all today. I wonder if it is connected to my being distracted from thinking about my wife? I am not sure the anxiety is really tied to any particular thoughts. Its just a body reaction. Can't think myself out of it, can only make it worse if I obsess over being anxious. But I am definitely grateful I didn't have to put up with intermittent anxiety symptoms today. I think those are the worst part of all this. It just feels so awful, like dying or something. Even the the lessened intensity that I felt over the weekend was bad. I'd rather have the flu! 

Friend of mine asked me to help illustrate a graphic novel since his artist wigged out. Not sure if I have the time. Would be a nice distraction, but it would take a lot of time away from finishing my graduate studies so I can get moving into a job next year (right now I am paid to read and write by my graduate school, hence I have lots of time on my hands).


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Glad the anxiety abated.

Stay the course.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

On the advice of my IC, I sent my wife a short email basically apologizing for a few things, and acknowledging her point of view. She replied a few hours later saying she appreciated that, and that she would be open to meeting if I wanted to do so. That was on Tuesday. I have not replied to her email. 

I have been redecorating my apartment. I packed all her things up. I didn't want the place to look like it did when she was here, and now it doesn't. Still in the process of that though.

I am not sure whether to reply or wait for her to actually invite me specifically...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Meeting about what?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She didn't say except to say she did not want to talk about her moving or money issues (which I had said I did not want to talk about), but that maybe we could just agree to talk about something (i.e. anything) before we meet and for how long.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> She didn't say except to say she did not want to talk about her moving or money issues (which I had said I did not want to talk about), but that maybe we could just agree to talk about something (i.e. anything) before we meet and for how long.


So, she'll talk about anything but the important stuff.

Ignore it.


----------



## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

> I realized that step 12, which says we practice these principles in all our affairs applies to my situation.


I've lapsed, but haven't acted out in a while. It's amazing how much better I feel like I do when I practice the steps, whether it's the relationship or the addiction. Keep on.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So tonight, after my AA meeting I went to a free jazz and art event in town. Had a good time. An artist even gave me a piece for free, which was really cool. My wife was there. I knew it was a possibility she might be there, but did not know she would be there when I went. So I didn't go to see her or anything. 

She came up to me and said "I just wanted to say hi," and hugged me, then walked off to talk to somebody. I did not hug her back. I was a little annoyed that she did it actually but did not say so. I was having a good time chatting with people. A little later while I was talking to somebody she came up to me and said that she was sorry, and that she should not just walk up to me and hug me like that. I said, "Okay." And that was the end of it. I left a little while after that and just got home. 

She saw me at the place being happy, friendly, and engaged with people. I did not try to talk with her at all. I said only one word to her--"okay"--and not at my own initiative. It all feels very strange.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

My wife and I met yesterday to talk. We spoke for over two hours. She applied for an apartment, and has to sign a lease by next Friday. That would be a year-long lease. She said she is very excited about the possibility. That she wants to learn to live on her own and get over the fear of being alone. She has been staying with friends this whole time; now she is thinking of her own place.

For me, the lease on the apartment she and I got together is up at the beginning of September. I have an offer to teach in another city, several hundred miles away starting in the Fall. If she and I were together, I would simply commute once a week for three days, and be here for the other four. But without somebody to share responsibilities for the two cats we have, and to share expenses, it would not make sense for me to stay in the place I am. 

Not only that but in the Fall I have to start applying for long-term positions, which will mean going wherever a job is offered for the next school year after the coming one. 

What she is asking, it seems to me, is for me to wait a year to see if she gets over her own issues, while she lives alone and gets over her codependency issues. I think that is the wrong way to deal with such a problem. It is a lot to ask of me, with no guarantees, and lots of risk for me if I were to stay in this city where she is at, in terms of finances, longer term career choices (there is no job at a university where I live, and I've trained 12 years for a professorship). Plus the idea of being in limbo land for a year, living like I am now, with little hope, lots of anxiety, fears, sadness, and not being able to really move on, make this seem like I have a choice to make whether I want to continue with this marriage or not if she signs that lease.

I did say to her that there is a possibility I would file for divorce over this, or at the very least legal separation. She knows the issues. She said that her first reaction to it is to take the risk, and get the apartment. 

She said that my lack of contact with her pushed her to look for an apartment, thinking that I was trying to move on and did not care anymore. I told her that she moved out, has told me several times that she wants out, and that there seems to be this OM in the picture somewhere, so what was I supposed to do? Plus all the advice I get from books and elsewhere is to let her leave if she wants. Don't pursue. She said that while she is attracted to OM, she has not had any alone time with him for a month, but he has been places where she is at in large groups. But she has not interacted with him much. She wants to live single, not in a relationship.

So it seems to me she's made up her mind, though she still has a week to decide on the apartment. I would still have a few months in this city, till my lease is up. I simply cannot wait here for her. I'd give up too much for too little.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt,

This is where you have to hold fast.

Do not - under any circumstances - chase her.

Secure lodging in the other city - where you're working.

Continue with the 180.

The hell with her.

Every word out of her mouth says, "chase me"

Oh, and btw, the stuff she's telling you about posOM are lies.

"Only together in groups"

What happens when the "group" goes home?

Don't believe this. She wants you as Plan B.

Don't go for it.

You're nobody's plan B.

P.S. The blameshifting surrounding her "reasons" is because you didn't chase? Yeah, right.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah...I hear you. I won't call her or initiate contact. I will however respond to her calls or invites. 

I don't want to break my lease and pay. I don't have to move till late summer, so that is when I will plan to go. I have also made some friends here over the past couple months and would like to continue with my counseling, my AA group, and other such things for the next few months, to make sure I am on surer footing when I do have to go. It will actually be cheaper for me to live elsewhere...I can get free counseling through my university, and my rent may be cheaper if I can get in the building I had looked at back in February where a friend lives.

I just redecorated my apartment too...no need to rush out of here and react by running off yet.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm not telling you to break a lease or run.

Just do what's right for you.

Firmly and unapologetically.

She is now getting the message.

You aren't going to chase her.

That's why she's inviting you to chase her.

You get the idea.

BTW - responding to her invites is fine. Do not issue any of your own.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Will do. I have to say that being "cool, calm, and dispassionate" was not my strong point in our conversation yesterday. We both cried. It was pretty tough. There wasn't any way I could keep that from happening. We were in a public coffee shop....I am sure we both looked ridiculous


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Will do. I have to say that being "cool, calm, and dispassionate" was not my strong point in our conversation yesterday. We both cried. It was pretty tough. There wasn't any way I could keep that from happening. We were in a public coffee shop....I am sure we both looked ridiculous


Growth area for next time.

There will be a next time, I guarantee it.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

You have obviously made her backpedal with the 180.

Don't let her recent attempt at manipulation affect you.

Cool Calm Dispassionate

Plan B you are not!

Stay the course.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Wife emailed me tonight saying she has been reflecting on our conversation all day. She had asked me to come to church with her and then cancelled this morning. She sounded worn out on the phone. Tonight her email said she would send me something tomorrow over email and we could discuss it face to face later in the week. 

I responded that I thought it would be better for her to say whatever she needed to say face to face, and if she needed to write it out, to do that for herself without sending it to me. My thought there was that if she plans to go ahead and sign a lease she needs to say all that kind of stuff to me in person and not hide behind an electronic device, allowing the distance and impersonal nature of email to make things easier. I didn't say that to her, but that is my thinking.

I had a great day. I am an artist. Can draw portraits and all sorts of stuff. But I have never painted anything. Today I almost finished my first painting! It looks great. I drew it on the canvas first and then got used to working with brushes. Very fun, relaxing, and exciting to do. New hobby.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt,

Your gradually getting on top of this.

This isn't going the way she thought/dreamed it would.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She emailed today. We are meeting in the morning before my IC. She wanted to spend the evening collecting her thoughts so she can be as direct and clear as possible about what she is thinking.

At least I will be able to process the discussion immediately with my counselor. I don't have to respond definitively to whatever she has to say. I can take it to my counselor and talk it through.

I think she will want to sign the lease. If she were backing down on that she'd just tell me without the fanfare and space for thought collection so she says things just right. Maybe she's trying to think of some compromise. I was very clear to her that I was not bluffing about filing with the courts if she took that step.

Once again, I've had a good day so far. I am not anxious about tomorrow, and was not fearful or acting out of emotion in my brief responses to figure out a time to meet (initiated by her). I've been trying to complete my painting, went to the gym, have a meeting later, and need to work on my "to do" list that I make each day. I am just carrying on.

Tomorrow morning could be another issue once we meet and if she says she's ready to move out permanently or whatnot. I won't beg her. I won't plead with her. But there is probably no way I won't tear up over it. For me, it is not whether I cry, but how I act toward if I do. I have counseling right afterward, so I'm often at my calmest during that part of the day.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

"It's not what I think is best, but I won't stand in your way"


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah. That is a good line. I don't have to repeat any threats of divorce or anything, but say something like that and ask questions about what her goal is in doing something like that.

My sponsor says I may have pushed a little too hard making an ultimatum the other day. Got me second guessing myself. I shouldn't let her know that though...


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So my W and I met this past Tuesday and she decided to get an apartment. I had IC immediately afterward and processed the whole thing with him. He and I talked about my initial reaction to file for divorce, my tendencies to withdrawal, not allow myself to feel various hurts and cover them with anger and some unhealthy habits, and at the conclusion I decided that filing right now would not be a good choice for me. I would not be doing it out of my best intentions and it would not help me move on ultimately. He recommended separation counseling. One or two sessions to establish the kind of boundaries she and I will establish and to preserve the possibility of reconciliation in the future should we decide to try that. He suggested I recommend it to her since she did not want to file either. She agreed and set up an appointment with a counselor and she will pay for it.

In the meantime, I have had no contact with her whatsoever since Tuesday on my initiative. She emailed me a couple days ago wondering what kind of contact we should have till May 1, when we have counseling. She wanted to know if I wanted to do something on Sundays with her and to have weekly phone check-ins. I responded today that we can establish those things at the counseling session. 

I didn't tell her, but I want space from her right now. I am disappointing in her decision to move out. Sometimes I am angry, which I have learned is often a cover for me to push away feelings like disappointment and other hurts. So I don't want to act on any of that toward her. And I just need space to do my own thing till the counseling session and she moves out on May 3. Her stuff is already packed up and put in a closet. 

I feel like I am on top of it. This separation is of course a daily concern of mine, but it doesn't control my life right now. I do however, sometimes, think I should just go ahead and get divorce paper work in order, but that is usually when I am angry about the whole thing, which just shows me I would be acting out of anger and not out of my own choices and best interests. So I am not doing that yet.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Once again... "separation counseling" when the split doesn't involve kids is merely "copay collection"


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She's paying. My IC recommended it so I'm going next Wednesday. Won't hurt anything. 

Counselor thinks that my not having contact with her these next two weeks is my attempt to withdrawal and not feel or think about painful things...a habit that has been a problem for me, shutting down, shutting people out. 

Maybe that is what I am doing. In general I am not doing that with other people now. I am reaching out, and more social than I have been in years. And it is only two weeks of no contact really till the counseling session, so it is not a permanent thing. 

On the other hand, I am shutting her out mentally. I rarely think about her anymore, and don't really care much at this point. It is going on three months apart, and way over a year of fighting and all sorts of troubles before that. So I'm glad to be rid of the issue for a while. Having fun on my own. Painting, lifting and running, meeting with friends, etc. No worries about my career future if she is not around...I can move wherever I want if offered a permanent post. Right now, she would have to work to get me back on board. She's not doing that, so why should I really be reaching out to her?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

So, she's going to pay you to waste an hour or two of your life when you're doing this well?

One thing that's really great about this board is we get all the necessary data to make our own decisions and feel good about them.

Good luck to you.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Wife emailed on Thursday to ask what time she can come next Friday to get the rest of her stuff and whether she needed boxes. I have not responded. 

I packed all her stuff already.

I have been doing fine for the most part; not obsessing about the separation, not thinking about POM and letting hatred overtake me w/regard to him, and just learning new hobbies (painting), working out 6 days a week, and such things. Having fun really. 

But her email, the first in a while now, kind of set me off during the evening. Only got 4 hours of sleep, instead of what I have been getting (7-8 hours). 

Not that I am worried about her moving out, and whether we'll reconcile someday or anything. But it made me realize that I really don't want or need contact with her right now. I am doing fine. Got me rethinking whether I want to do separation counseling at all, or just tell her I don't want to talk, meet, or email. Since she is moving out, I just want to live my life and not think about our relationship. I'm doing fine without her.

I did not think I would come to this point a few months ago, when I was a wreck. I almost feel bad that I am there. But, I am a better person today than I was then. I am not cold to other people, and am a lot more friendly and open with folks. But with her, I just don't know that I want to have contact...so Conrad's advice about the counseling session might be the way for me to go. Not sure now. I was okay with the idea before, but her email asking 2 quick questions, being the first contact in a week and a half, has me rethinking.


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Stick to Conrad's advice. Its a waste of YOUR time. 

You already have your game plan; stick to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

You got better things to do than counseling with a woman who is checking out.

She only wants it so SHE can feel better.

So she can say she tried. BS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Gave this a lot of thought and examined my motives pretty carefully to make sure I would not be doing anything to punish anybody or out of some passive aggressiveness, or even worse for me out of a motive to try to control a situation and perhaps manipulate something I feel anxious about because I have not real control over it.

I had downloaded divorce papers from my state's website and started filling them out. But I decided that step would be too much. I would definitely be trying to control the situation and avoiding dealing with issues.

However, when I thought about separation counseling, and having contact with my W, I realized that I am doing better when I don't get emails and calls from her, and when I don't feel like I have to respond. So my thought is that I'd want to continue no contact through May, and then reevaluate sometime in June. I don't think it is necessary to go to separation counseling to say that, and I told my wife as much over an email (she had emailed me wanting times she could come this Friday to move out). I did not factor in her reaction to my thoughts in any way. I am not trying to manipulate her or make her try to chase me or any of that stuff. So I felt good about writing it out and sending it, since it came from my own decision about my life without trying to control her or the situation, but simply trying to acknowledge how things already are and work with it. 

Anyhow, I don't think I will be going to the counseling. I did say I would go if she wants to do so despite what I have said, but that I will not change my mind on it, and we have to go separately (she doesn't drive).


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Anyhow, I don't think I will be going to the counseling. I did say I would go if she wants to do so despite what I have said, but that I will not change my mind on it, and we have to go separately (she doesn't drive).


This confuses me.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I told her I don't think counseling is necessary and I don't want to go. I don't want contact in May, and that is what I would say. She has not replied. If she asks that we still go, I will consider it. She will probably process this with her IC on Monday before replying is my guess.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> I told her I don't think counseling is necessary and I don't want to go. I don't want contact in May, and that is what I would say. She has not replied. If she asks that we still go, I will consider it. She will probably process this with her IC on Monday before replying is my guess.


Why will you consider it if you don't want to go?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah...I get it. Doing something to please another. I'm not going. Thanks for the question.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

W needed me to meet her at the bank to deposit the tax check and take me off the joint account (I have my own money). We didn't talk at all. I signed the papers, and left simply saying have a nice day, while she was still signing. It was a jerk thing to do, and I feel bad about it. I was cold and distant; not cheerful. She saw the old me again, not the person I am becoming.

Oh well. It hurt to go there and have a joint account closed; one we'd had for 9 years. Friday she comes to get her stuff. My counselor says I should help her pack the stuff into the vehicles or find some way to be helpful; or rather, he asked me what I have to lose by being helpful rather than cold and distant. 

At IC we talked a lot about this stuff...basically he pushed me to see that I have a choice how this ends, even if I don't really have any control over whether it ends (I think it is headed for divorce no matter what I say or do). How amicable do I want this to end? He also pushed me not to close down, not to push down my feelings and not feel them. His point was that no contact with her is a way for me to not feel the hurt right now...but, he said, I will have to deal with them, now or later. Bottling them up has added risks.

I've been fairly sad about the whole situation this week. I was doing pretty well, now I am thinking about it all more, now that the time has come for her to move out for real. It is not like it was months ago: I can sleep, eat, and I am not having anxiety attacks. But I am thinking about it a lot, am sad most of the time, not content, and I do have some anxiety tension, as well as wanting to sleep a lot more during the day.

It is like every time she takes another step away (incremental steps in moving out) I have to re-grieve again.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Today has been pretty bad. Tightness in my stomach, sluggishness, and sleeping. I feel pretty bad. Tomorrow morning she's coming to get her stuff to move into her apartment. Geez, I thought I was over this kind of awful feeling.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Today has been pretty bad. Tightness in my stomach, sluggishness, and sleeping. I feel pretty bad. Tomorrow morning she's coming to get her stuff to move into her apartment. Geez, I thought I was over this kind of awful feeling.


Nope...It's a rollercoaster. Highs and lows. You'll persevere.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I will. I get this way and I start thinking thoughts about filing divorce papers...which is probably a way for me to cope with the sadness through doing something in anger and that might hurt her. As long as I don't act on it...acting in anger that way is not good for me, if I am going to file for divorce it needs to come from a better place than my own pain and trying to cover it up. I should get my ass to a meeting tonight. Don't want end up drunk either.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Nope...drinking just masks the pain.
To persevere you must face it.
Don't do anything out of anger.

Need a Star Wars geek to insert Yoda quote here. 

Cool Calm Dispassionate

Next date with X see above


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Nope...drinking just masks the pain.
> To persevere you must face it.
> Don't do anything out of anger.
> 
> ...


Tomorrow morning. She'll have people coming with her to help haul her things. That will make it somewhat easier for me not to breakdown or to act in anger trying to cover it up. Trick will be not to act like an ice cube either...I have a way of pushing down sadness by being hard as a stone. I won't explode at anybody, that is not my temptation...mine will be to not say a word, to just stare and ignore, to answer curtly, etc. IC asked me why not help pack things into the car...maybe I will, maybe it will help me be less likely to be a cold-hearted jerk or to withdraw into my room and tear up in solitude.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

You need to act like a million dollars.

Put your best clothes on.

Look sharp. Have fun. Fake it if you have to.

You are doing just fine without her. Got it.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks. Yeah. I always dress sharp, but I will wear my new Banana Republic shirt I got this week. I am making sure the house is very clean tonight. I'll put on my best act. Good idea.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

W. is here with a few friends to get her things to move into a new apartment. I am staying out of the way, but not helping to carry things down. I already packed it all and moved everything toward the door, which is quite a lot of help in my view. 

I read in the AA Big Book this morning about resentments. How easy it is for me to forget. I've made a list in my head of all the wrongs she has done me, and this moving out is another. I tell myself that I am not all that bad: I never cheated, never hit her, never even threatened her, over the years have been generally supportive, etc. I have been a good husband. But I know I also have my part in her moving. I was also addicted to my work, became emotionally unavailable, isolated myself from others, and started to let little things get to me so that I held grudges once again. 

But I am working on those things. I feel better in all ways about life. Her leaving has been a wake-up call for me. Yet I don't think this is necessary; she does not have to leave. Our marriage is not unfixable.

That is my view; she sees it differently. The Big Book says that I should treat her like she is ill; as if she has a sickness, a spiritual sickness that has caused her to harm me and our marriage in this way. And I would not treat a sick person badly; I would not put up an ice wall between myself and that person. I'd do what I can to help them if they ask for it; and try to listen as they tell of their pain, not thinking to describe my own in return.

That is a good way to view this: she's leaving; it hurts like hell; but she's not well, though she doesn't know it. I hope she gets better off on her own. Instead of anger at her, I can feel compassion, empathy and sadness. The latter is hardest for me to allow. But it is what a normal person feels when a friend is sick.


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Skip the sad speeches.

Just put a big ole fake smile on your face.

Remember....your life is awesome.

If not, then fake it.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yep. I am all smiles. Listening to Volbeat while they pack.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I dunno, I'm going to offer you a different take on this separation than you're getting from everyone else.

You said in your OP that your wife pulled away from you because she was put off by your lack of emotion and tendency to withdraw into yourself. Responding to this information with an even greater lack of emotional intimacy is not going to reassure your wife. 

It's common here to see men who cling and get more and more desperate as their wives pull away, so in general the advice to appear strong, calm, and aloof is sound. But I really don't see any of that pertaining to you.

Are you really listening to what she needs from you? Because honestly, I think you're pushing her further and further away. I think she wants to see that you care about her. I'm not saying you need to chase her, but she does need to see that you have a heart.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

talking to a fried on the phone too very cool


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

northernlights said:


> I dunno, I'm going to offer you a different take on this separation than you're getting from everyone else.
> 
> You said in your OP that your wife pulled away from you because she was put off by your lack of emotion and tendency to withdraw into yourself. Responding to this information with an even greater lack of emotional intimacy is not going to reassure your wife.
> 
> ...


I cannot disagree more. She is blameshifting and establishing you as Plan B. You tried to establish boundaries with her about OM and she chose OM. 

Stay the course. Work on you.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

northernlights:

yeah I agree. I have shown her that. 

Right now she and her friends are taking the first load to her new apartment. They will be back.

I am not being weepy here today. I don't see how that would help at all. But I have shown emotional pain to her over the course of this separation. She knows I have changed a lot. She says that she has not though. 

The no contact thing is probably the hardest, and might communicate withdrawal more than anything...I might speak to her briefly before she leaves with her second and last load of things about that. 

She has not even given me her new address. I will not ask for it. But I find it sickening that I don't know where my own wife is going to be living. I am not going to ask, but it is part of this sickness thing I was mentioning. She knows I have changed and opened up a lot more to people over the past three months. She told me other people say this to her as well. Yet she has not even told me where she is going to be living. I know the general area, but not where. She's not well. It is probably for the best that she is going to be honest. I'd likely be very frustrated with her here and in that frame of mind.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She's back and getting the rest of her stuff...


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Volbeat's new album is really good, if you are into Metallica-type music...

so far all is uneventful. Talking to my friend on the phone earlier was very helpful. He told me about what is going on...didn't talk to him about my issues during this...


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well, she has taken all her stuff and has left. 

Before she left I did say to her that she did not have to do what she is doing and I think she could have saved this marriage if she stayed. She gave me her key, and asked me to consider letting her cat sit when I go out of town. (I will get somebody else).


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Met with a friend today and had a good conversation over coffee this morning. Came back and slept for 2 hours. I've been sleeping a lot.

Yesterday when she left she cried in the parking lot while her two girlfriends comforted her.

I checked the phone records today, since we are still on the same plan for another couple weeks. She called OM 5 times today. Now that she has her own apartment she must feel free to start that back up.

I am so pissed. I downloaded divorce papers a week or two ago and started filling them out. After seeing those calls I feel like I should file.

I have also not exposed this emotional affair (and it might now turn physical since she has her own place) to their coworkers (they work together at a religious based organization). I am very close with some of their coworkers, and could cause some big problems if I exposed this, especially for that SOB. 

So I am debating. Divorce filing? Expose this to people? I am so pissed off...I'd like to kick his ass, and tell her to f*ck off. 

The phone is in my name...I could have it cut off immediately as well...

All this is retaliatory type stuff to some degree and I am not sure it would be helpful for me to follow through on. But it is all swirling in my head right now. 

Shouldn't have checked those phone records...grrrrr....


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Well, she has taken all her stuff and has left.
> 
> Before she left I did say to her that she did not have to do what she is doing and I think she could have saved this marriage if she stayed. She gave me her key, and asked me to consider letting her cat sit when I go out of town. (I will get somebody else).


You talk too much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes file. Yes expose. Do not kill
the phone just yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I already took the phone off and told her I did it. I just couldn't take it, and I don't want to see anymore. I went to a movie last night to take my mind off things. That was good.

Tomorrow I am headed to Chicago to meet with an old friend from New Zealand and have a good time. I am filing on Tuesday. I read in a book at Barnes and Nobles before the movie that you should warn your spouse that papers are coming, so I did; I sent a very brief note saying I cut off her phone after seeing the calls and that as a result I would be filing for a divorce as well; I don't deserve to be treated the way she is treating me; and nothing else. No name-calling or anything, just matter of fact. Maybe I talk too much even with brief things, but the book I read said it is better to do that, so I did. I also think that informing her of my intention holds me to it. I have blocked her email account; I don't want to hear her excuses. I am done.

I just told one of her best friends who is currently in China about her affair. She had advised me last week not to divorce, but she doesn't know about the OM (wife has kept this low key because of the stigma in religious organizations about affairs).


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

grr...she was able to text me through Google. Said the OM was out of town, and she only wanted to know where to do recycling (as if he's the only person who could tell her that stuff), she won't beg me not to divorce her, I've communicated I don't care through no contact, canceling separation counseling, and guilt tripping her right at the end of her move out Friday, and she'll wait for the papers.

I don't plan to respond at all. I will still file on Tuesday. I'll need to finish up the paper work today and this evening.

This stuff is so hard. It is a roller coaster all right. I am pretty sure I have some kind of low-grade depression-thing going on as I have been sleeping so much lately. Slept almost all day today in bits and pieces. I swing between anger, hurt, sadness, and numbness. 

My AA sponsor and my therapist should hear about all this...I am sure my therapist will want me to hold off. My sponsor didn't think I would be filing out of retaliation and a get-even spirit, and said if he were in my shoes he would file for divorce. The realization of it being really over though has hit me in the past week and I think that is why I have been sleeping so much...a coping mechanism in my body or something.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Sleep, sleep, wonderful cursed sleep. Between the previous post and this one I slept 3 hours or so, and then read a long thread from A12 in this forum. Glad the thread was interesting enough to keep me awake. So much sleep. 

I need to talk to somebody about this. This has got to be some kind of depression thing...though I don't really mentally feel all that bad; I felt way, way worse back in early March mentally, and physically too with the anxiety attacks and symptoms. Or maybe this is a normal reaction. I read that depression is a normal part of grief, and so my sleeping might simply be part of my body's reaction to my increasing realization that this marriage is almost assuredly over. 

Been listening to Otherwise's song "I Don't Apologize (1,000 Pictures)" over and over. great lyrics for people going through this stuff.


----------



## dscl (Aug 3, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Been listening to Otherwise's song "I Don't Apologize (1,000 Pictures)" over and over. great lyrics for people going through this stuff.


Arendt- Never heard of this band or song, just listen to the song and wow, it really does help.

Thanks!


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm sorry you're going through this Arendt. She's not holding up her end of your marriage, and that just sucks. It's really, really ****ty of her to realize that you're making an effort to open up to her more emotionally during the separation and still go ahead with moving out and not totally ending the EA. Don't let her shut you off to opening your heart ever again, ok? She doesn't get to do that to you. Do you have a dog? I think you should get one. They're so loving and unconditionally faithful. 

You should also definitely speak with either your doctor or therapist about whether you might have depression. I've read somewhere (online, so grain of salt...) that the longer depression persists, the more difficult it is to treat. So, nip that business in the bud! 

Big hugs to you!!


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I feel you on the sleep too btw. During the separation I went to sleep every night at 8 pm when my girls went to sleep. I'd wake up sometime between 5 and 6 pm. I'm not sure if it's depression/grief, or if I'm just finally catching up on the sleep I didn't get for 7 years when my girls weren't sleeping through the night. I resent sleep, so this has been really difficult for me.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Northernlights: 

I have two cats. Great companions.

Do you still sleep a lot? If not did you have to take meds or something? 

I spent the day in Chicago hanging out with friends. Took a short 15 minute nap in the car, but other than that I was fine. But I was out and about and had to be "on" all day. It was good though.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Do you still sleep a lot? If not did you have to take meds or something?


I'm still sleeping a lot. It's confusing for me because my littler one didn't start sleeping through the night until she was 4, at which point I promptly developed insomnia. Before that, she was still nursing at night and was waking up at least 5 times per night. I honestly didn't sleep for more than 3-4 hours at a time from the time she was born. My first was much, much better, but still a normal baby/kid. So really, I went 7 or 8 years without sleeping through the night. But those last few years with the little one were pure torture. Some nights she'd be up 15 times. So, I'm not sure if all this sleep is something my body needs to recover and is good for me, or if it's a symptom of something else. I can't find any info on the web about recovering from severe sleep deprivation. Pre-kids, I thrived on 8.5 to 9 hours per night, so this is only an hour or 2 more than that... I dunno.

I'm not sure how much time to give it. I'm thinking that if you wake up feeling ready to go and refreshed, then it's good sleep that your body needs. But if you wake up feeling exhausted and sluggish, then it's bad. But I'm kind of pulling that out of nowhere.

How many hours per night are you getting? Do you nap most days?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

My IC said sleeping for me right now is a response to grief. He said I should ask myself what I am feeling when I also feel tired and whether I have any reason to use sleep to try not to feel that way. Even though I am not intentionally and consciously trying to sleep away hurt, that may very well be what I am doing. So I need to be aware of what emotions and such are happening. 

Right now I am tired. I just got back from the court house to get information on how to file my own paperwork for a divorce. I plan to sit down with my W and tell her in person that I have filed, why, and what my hopes are etc in doing so. IC suggested that I not try to cause her more pain in this process and show her I respect her and realize that she is responding to pain just as much as I am.

Anyway, all that is to say that while I am tired right now, I am also feeling a bit sad about going to the court house and such. So there may be a connection there.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Northernlights:
> 
> I have two cats. Great companions.
> 
> ...


Hi Arendt - 

I'm sorry you're going through this, too. Glad you found my thread interesting enough for some late night reading -- LOL!

I sure appreciated your very kind and helpful feedback.

That's great you had a good time visiting friends in Chicago. Getting out and socializing, especially with people who care for us, is the best medicine. 

I have two cats, too, and agree they are a comfort. My STBXH never liked cats before we met, but came to love my two. Then when he moved out a year ago April, he went and got himself a cat from the shelter for company  At least that's one good thing I imparted to him -- a love of cats and the realization that they make great pets  

Hang in there, and be gentle with yourself.

Best Wishes, - A12


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I volunteer at a no-kill shelter actually, in the cat department. I am a vegan so I take animal issues seriously.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Arendt said:


> My IC said sleeping for me right now is a response to grief. He said I should ask myself what I am feeling when I also feel tired and whether I have any reason to use sleep to try not to feel that way. Even though I am not intentionally and consciously trying to sleep away hurt, that may very well be what I am doing. So I need to be aware of what emotions and such are happening.


When H and I were in MC, I was exhausted after sessions. I wasn't intentionally trying to escape anything by sleeping, I was just so spent. Processing these intense emotions is draining. I wonder if that's part of what's going on with you too. 

I'm glad you've got your cats.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

It could be part of it. I am also an introvert, meaning largely that I get energy from my own internal process and other people take energy from me...like playing a sport, I need a break because I get exhausted from playing the "game" of friendship, counseling, etc. 

And emotions are not something I deal with well...yesterday I spent time with others and distracted myself from feeling hurt, so I didn't sleep much yesterday. I was up from 7am till 1 am. Perhaps I also get exhausted form the "game" of dealing with emotional pain and need to sleep it off...should think about it. Anyways, IC didn't seem worried that I suffer from depression.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Gym workouts going well. Bench up to 225. Happy about that!

Have to find a notary public or whatever to witness my signature on one of the divorce forms. Not even sure how to go about doing that.

Slept a lot again today. Feeling pretty sad about the whole thing.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Gym workouts going well. Bench up to 225. Happy about that!
> 
> Have to find a notary public or whatever to witness my signature on one of the divorce forms. Not even sure how to go about doing that.
> 
> Slept a lot again today. Feeling pretty sad about the whole thing.


Notaries are usually at City Hall or at the library.

Congrats on the bench.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I am at the end of my Effexor prescription, and I forgot to take a pill yesterday. Today I have a massive headache and slept till noon. The only thing I can think of that caused it is not taking my dose.

I was thinking I might ask the doctor if I still need to be on this stuff, but now I am thinking that if I quit I will need to get off it slowly to avoid withdrawal. It is like coffee withdrawal except the headache is a little worse.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> I am at the end of my Effexor prescription, and I forgot to take a pill yesterday. Today I have a massive headache and slept till noon. The only thing I can think of that caused it is not taking my dose.
> 
> I was thinking I might ask the doctor if I still need to be on this stuff, but now I am thinking that if I quit I will need to get off it slowly to avoid withdrawal. It is like coffee withdrawal except the headache is a little worse.


Arendt,

I'm a pharmacist.

Effexor is one of those you need to taper as you discontinue it.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks Conrad. That confirms that my current headache is due to missing the pills and that I need to go ahead and talk to the doctor about a refill and how to taper. I took half my dose this morning about an hour a go, and my headache is starting to dissipate. 

I wanted to get up early this morning too and file an application for some part time work at a vet clinic (I volunteer a no-kill shelter), that I thought would be rewarding work.

I hate sleeping half the day away like this.


----------



## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I stopped taking Lexapro to switch to another med without tapering (wasn't advised to taper by psychiatrist). I also happened to be going through a difficult grieving period after my father's death. I basically lost it completely for several weeks, and this precipitated my wife separating, and now likely divorce. If I didn't go cold turkey I have no doubt that I wouldn't be on TAM right now.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Why not?


----------



## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Arendt said:


> Why not?


I lost all control over my emotions and behavior, which was limited to begin with (I'm borderline). I lashed out at W repeatedly, telling her that she was a horrible wife and wasn't supporting me in my grieving process (the latter being somewhat true, I still believe). I became even more needy and co-dependent. She went away for a long weekend in October, and after she returned I berated her for leaving me alone. The following morning she packed an overnight bag and left for her friend's place. Never came back. On Monday she said she will file this week.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> I lost all control over my emotions and behavior, which was limited to begin with (I'm borderline). I lashed out at W repeatedly, telling her that she was a horrible wife and wasn't supporting me in my grieving process (the latter being somewhat true, I still believe). I became even more needy and co-dependent. She went away for a long weekend in October, and after she returned I berated her for leaving me alone. The following morning she packed an overnight bag and left for her friend's place. Never came back. On Monday she said she will file this week.


So sorry to hear this, Canardo. Hoping both Arendt and you are getting the expert med management help you need. 

Feel better!

Best,- A12


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

What did Lexapro have to do with any of that though? I have never taken it or anything, just wondering how you see getting off of it helped you.


----------



## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Arendt said:


> What did Lexapro have to do with any of that though? I have never taken it or anything, just wondering how you see getting off of it helped you.


I meant that going cold turkey rather than weening off of Lexapro exacerbated my emotional and behavioral problems, and contributed to the behavior that caused my wife to leave. I'm certain that I wouldn't have acted out in such an extreme way if I didn't go cold turkey.

All of this is besides the nausea, vertigo, etc.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Oh I see. I thought you meant the opposite somehow. 

Tried to quit coffee a month ago or so by switching to decaf, since I thought it still had caffeine in it. It does, but only like 4%, which was not enough to compensate for my 6-7 cups a day habit. Oh the joy that ensued. Now I drink half decaf and half regular. I hate withdrawal from drugs of any kind. These uppers tend to make me crash and sleep and then have headaches. 

Thanks A12 for your kind words. Hope all is well with you.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I am working on a fourth step in the 12 step program which involves taking a personal moral inventory. I am cataloging all the resentments I have towrd other ppl, institutions and ideas. So far I have about 8 pages of resentments against my stbxw alone. That is a lot of baggage and weight to be holding on to. I'm not ready to let go of most of them, and I don't have to yet. That comes later (step 6 and 7). But I recognize that all of these are harmful to me. I'm not even done listing resentments against her yet, let alone all the sh!t I'm holding against others. I'm a pretty sick person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm impressed by your memory. Is that 8 pages with one resentment per line, or are you writing paragraphs? I'm fighting my competitive side, who instinctively wonders if she could get 10 pages of resentments against her H... 

Kidding! Good for you for doing this work though. How goes the sleeping? I'm still logging 10 - 11 hours per night, but I'm waking up feeling more refreshed and am not as sleepy during the day as I have been for the past few years, so I'm still hopeful that it's more sleep-deprivation recovery than anything else.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> I am working on a fourth step in the 12 step program which involves taking a personal moral inventory. I am cataloging all the resentments I have towrd other ppl, institutions and ideas. So far I have about 8 pages of resentments against my stbxw alone. That is a lot of baggage and weight to be holding on to. I'm not ready to let go of most of them, and I don't have to yet. That comes later (step 6 and 7). But I recognize that all of these are harmful to me. I'm not even done listing resentments against her yet, let alone all the sh!t I'm holding against others. I'm a pretty sick person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Arendt,

The real breakthroughs come when we start to face our own pos tendencies in relationships.

At that point, we can take on the dysfunctional dynamics of nearly anything - by following-through with ourselves.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Good for you, Arendt, you are doing the work -- thank you for your power of example. You're exactly right taking things in order a chunk at a time -- you will drop those rocks in good time when you are ready. I hope you are sleeping better!

Cheers, - A12


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I got about 12 pages at this point. 

I had assumed I'd write a few things down, but when I started thinking stuff just started coming out. Everything ranging from justifiable anger like her maneuvering so I would not go out with her one night so she could go with the OM, to being resentful that she was invited to speak at some event and I was not (we both give talks to conferences and such things on a regular basis). Some of them made me really angry, opening up old wounds and I had to stop one day because I was pissed after listing several pages of things. Some of them, like being resentful that she gets something and not me, show me for a self-centered person I can be. No matter, its an inventory. I am still not done. Sponsor said it will take a really long time and I should not try to think I am going to get over them by writing them down. I am looking at all the resentments, just listing what is there, no matter the reason. I am just surprised at how resentful I am and how hard it is to face it. It is hard not because I am beating myself up so much as the wounds reopening. The truth is, I could not possibly communicate well with her even if she wanted to do so now...I have all this inside me. I probably won't do any work on it today. I'll sit for a couple hours tomorrow and do some more.


Yeah I am sleeping better, A12, thanks.

Northernlights, resentments are about 1 or two lines each, listed. I am following the Big Book example on how to do it. There are a lot of ways to approach this kind of thing. There is a book on the 12 steps for anybody who is not in AA or something that is really great, titled, _Recovery: The Twelve Steps as Spiritual Practice_ by Rami Shapiro.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Arendt said:


> There is a book on the 12 steps for anybody who is not in AA or something that is really great, titled, _Recovery: The Twelve Steps as Spiritual Practice_ by Rami Shapiro.


Thanks, I'll put that on my list. I struggle with the spiritual aspects in the self-help books. I wish there was something more grounded in science.

But if it works, it works, and I'm trying to not pass over helpful stuff because a part of it bugs me.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

NL: "spirituality" defined simply as being able to live more compassionately and justly, not defined as thinking about heaven or some eternal salvation. Each of us has to find our own path through things, I've found the discipline of the steps to be helpful.

I'm starting to list my resentments toward other people now. Spent a few hours today. Incredible to me that everywhere I have spent time and with all but a few people in my life, I have developed some type of grudge from the time I spent around various people. A trail. It is hard to look at this carnage. No wonder I didn't have anybody to call when W left me. Looking at this "resume" for friendship, I don't really have much to offer except self-centeredness. I've made baby steps in the past three months toward less a less self-centered life, but I'm barely crawling still I think. 

Writing down resentments, in some of these cases has allowed me to see their absurdity: in some cases with others I am simply jealous and have based my own self-esteem on others getting less than me. Profoundly insecure...


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

How are you doing today Arendt? I thought about you because I'm reading a book called "Thinking fast and slow," which is about the psychology of how we make decisions. Section 3 is sub-titled "the illusion of understanding." Or something close to that, I'd have to get up to check, and is about how our brains attempt to construct coherent stories to explain situations, which in reality are meaningless (or nearly always so) because of the brain's tendency to discard info that doesn't fit into the narrative and because it can't account for the stuff it doesn't know that it doesn't know. Which reminded me of the principle of the 12-steps program and admitting one's powerlessness. It's a good read.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

NL

I'm doing okay. I'm sitting in a cafe working on fourth step work. 30 pages of resentments toward ppl. Everywhere I've been in life; nearly everyone I've encountered I have to list. Depressing to see this havoc. I didn't realize just how much energy my petty ego has taken up with keeping score.

I'm sitting w/wife mañana for a counseling session. Her request. She's paying too. I'm obviously angry w/her, so maybe it will help me. Who knows.

I don't know if powerlessness is the same as meaninglessness. I distrust enlightenment Kantian philosophy in which we in our godlike powers make all meaning and all things. I an see how what you wrote has some value fore though. Particularly when I construct false stories that don't really reflect the situation well. So I don't get to tell just any story I like if I want to accept powerlessness. Who's the book author?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

It's the stories that are meaningless, though that's a perhaps an oversimplified word choice. The stories are often not an accurate reflection of reality, therefore not useful in a reality-based understanding of the situation. The book doesn't veer into philosophy, but deals more with situations like why "understanding" the story of how Google got to the top isn't going to help you find the next Google, because so much of the story is retrospectively imposed narrative and just plain not included (because you don't know what you don't know. Or as the author puts it, what you see is all there is). Author is Daniel Kahneman. Lots of the subject matter is similar to Blink and other Gladwell stuff if you've read that. 

It's funny, the ego. I put more energy into retrospectively constructing (ridiculous and secret) contests wherein I'm already the winner than I do to carrying resentments. Maybe that's my optimistic bias, lol. Seeing the silliness of it helps me let it go, though. Don't forget to be kind to yourself.

Good luck with counseling tomorrow.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thinking a bit more...as I sit here with this list it is hard to make any sense of it all. It is hard to see, following the AA book advice how these resentments affect me on particular ways. The book I mentioned suggests ordering the list according to the 7 deadly sins, with pride having central place. So in that sense, to get any "meaning" out of the list beyond the obvious in healthiness of such things, I need to impose order on it. But it's not my order. It's a very traditional order of vice (vice being a better word than sin). So here again, I see how making meaning in some sense arises from powerlessness. So maybe I went on the attack to quick... A vice of a scholar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Went to see a counselor today with my wife. He's a Psy. D. rather than just a social worker with a counseling practice. A huge difference between his approach and our last marriage counselor. He is far better in my view so far. He got us both to agree to come to counseling. Next week we both have an individual session with him, and from there we have couples sessions.

It was a rough session today. W. was really angry when I brought up the EA; she doesn't like to call it that and got really pissy about it. He did a great job of listening and watching our interaction, then trying to see whether we both wanted it over or not and discerning that neither of us do, but each of us feels stuck.

We'll see. I didn't trust the old MC from the start. I knew her outside of counseling so it was awkward and probably unethical of her to even do the counseling.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Slept 14 hours. Geez. I only got 4 hours yesterday because I had a friend over for lunch and needed to prepare, went to the gym, then had counseling, then a pottery class. So some of this was making up the sleep loss. Part of it is probably the big drain emotionally from the counseling session. It was tough that is for sure.

I loved going to pottery class, my first. It is an 8 week course, for a mere 100 bucks! It is quite fun to mold clay into things...kind of child-like! Class is limited to 5 people, so it was fun to have a few others there learning as well. 

I have the faintest of faint glimmer of hope based on the counseling session. She went out of her way to get there, paid, and agreed to more sessions, which will not be easy for her to get to (she doesn't drive and so will have to take public transportation, and then get a ride from the bus stop to the counselor's). It seems to me that her actions there speak more than her words did sometimes. So I'll just wait and see. Only faint hope, not sitting around dreaming about it or anything. I don't feel depressed about the session; it was just drained me of energy is all.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Sounds good, Arendt -- glad to hear you are sleeping better, and enjoying trying out some new things. And that counselling seemed worthwhile, even if it was draining. Hang in there, you're doing great!

Cheers, A12


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Our first few counseling sessions were less draining for me than the last few, hopefully that trend holds for you too. If you can, book sessions in the afternoon. I found that I was useless for an entire day after a morning session. A good night's sleep helped me recharge.

I think it's great that your W is willing to go to so much effort to meet for counseling, too. Fingers are crossed for you guys.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I think I had a revelation this morning while sitting in a cafe before counseling. I'm doing a little fourth step work and it occurred to me that I have some self-resentment as well. I've not started to think about it more, but I suspect I should list myself and it could be a long list. 

I'm kind of a resentment machine at the moment 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> I think I had a revelation this morning while sitting in a cafe before counseling. I'm doing a little fourth step work and it occurred to me that I have some self-resentment as well. I've not started to think about it more, but I suspect I should list myself and it could be a long list.
> 
> I'm kind of a resentment machine at the moment
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Working through this will heal you.

Stay @50,000

Good job with the honesty.

It's very tempting to b.s. yourself.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Sounds like all this work is really paying off in self-AWARENESS -- such a gift, and few are capable of it -- you should be proud of yourself!


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hey Arendt - 

How are things going? Been awhile since we heard from you. I hope you are OK and doing well. 

Best Wishes, A12


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hi A12,

Thanks for asking. I am doing okay. I've had a few sessions of MC with my W that have not went to well. She and I met today and she said she is uncomfortable with this particular counselor so we agreed to ask a different person in his office, the person we were originally referred to for counseling instead. I understood how it feels not to have an MC who one is comfortable with since our last MC was a person I immediately felt at odds with and it had bad consequences.

Then our conversation today turned sour, tit for tat, jockeying for the victim's chair. I am such an idiot for playing that game. I have a 44 page list of resentments against a variety of people and institutions. And here today I was displaying it all.

I have to get beyond this bullsh!t. Anxiety levels tonight are sky high because of the conversation. Playing that game is just harmful all around, to myself, to my W. to our relationship, to others...

Anyway...as far as 12 Step work I am ready to move on to the 5th step and unload on whoever my sponsors chooses to be the poor sap who gets to hear my drivel.

Other than that, been working out, painting, inking a comic for a Canadian Magazine and avoiding doctoral studies.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Last night I invited W to coffee this afternoon to try again to have a decent conversation and to catch up with each other. She agreed and we had a peaceful and good talk about what each of us has been up to for the past few months. Nothing about our individual counseling work or my 12 step work or any relational talk. 

I won't invite her for talks till she has reciprocated now. I told her I am open to meeting more often for friendly interactions, but not for relationship stuff and to trade resentments to attempt to make each other apologize and feel bad. 

For me, I am willing to let some of it go and act as if I am forgiving her if she can take some steps too. I know the OM with her EA is out of the picture. Has been for a while it seems. 

On the other hand I am still not all that hopeful about things. We've made big steps by talking to each other and going to counseling. But this is not going to be an easy or short road; my own feelings are still pretty raw. I am sure hers are too. Having been on my own for 3 months I am starting to get used to this bachelor's life; liking it and where my life is headed at the moment. Anyway...

I'm not begging and pleading. I'm fairly strong on my own. But I am opening up to her a bit to see what happens. My IC has consistently recommended this to me.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Since she initiated the separation, she needs to close it.

No chasing.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm not chasing. I met with her a two Sundays back and we talked cordially, and I let her know I would welcome more time like this, but I will not initiate anything. She hasn't done so either.

I saw her at a friend's party on Saturday. She came up to me to talk and asked if we should interact while there or ignore each other...I felt weird about he question and just said that was up to her. We did not interact. I left before her and when I was a little ways out the door she came outside and asked me if I was leaving and I turned around and said yes. She said that she would see me later then. 

She chased me out the door basically to see what I was up to. I did not initiate anything, and I won't. I agree with you Conrad on the no chasing. I just cut contact in a cold way that was unhelpful and felt like I needed to let her know that I am open to her, but I will not beg and chase either. 

Looks like MC is over. She didn't like the counselor. She tried to find another to do "separation counseling" in her words, but couldn't find one, so that is over.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Arendt - 

Sorry to hear that your experience with MC did not go well, and that she has not been willling to try a different MC -- and that she shifted the purported intention of any further joint counselling to "separation MC." Still, it sounds like a part of her is reluctant to give up. She may just be confused and on the fence about whether she is capable of doing the work to heal the marriage.

It sounds like you are handling yourself really well, taking good care of yourself and staying busy. Hang in there and keep us posted.

All Best Wishes, - A12


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Good to hear from you Arendt! Do you still want reconciliation? How did you feel when you saw her?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Wife and I are in counseling again. Have had a couple sessions with a new female counselor. She was not comfortable with the other guy. Two males was intimidating for her. I understand not being comfortable with a counselor. I was uncomfortable with our first MC but never thought I could say so, for fear she would think I was trying to dodge it all. So I didn't mind switching; and I like this new lady a lot.

Our relationship has become a lot more friendly. She has finally admitted to her EA, which is over. Previously she would get upset when I called it that, saying she did nothing wrong. Perhaps her IC has helped her there; not sure. 

I do not chase her. We have set up boundaries in counseling for our contacts and how we engage with each other outside the sessions, which is really helpful. It takes the worry out of things. Why doesn't she call? Why don't I invite her, etc.? We have an agreement about our contact and that is good.

I'm not sure if we will reconcile, that is not the goal of the counseling necessarily. I personally think such a thing would be a long shot, but I am holding onto it all loosely, and participating in the process of trying to establish good communications between us, where we both have to deal with our emotional baggage, so that we can decide later if that is something we want. I'm actually not sure; neither is she. I am sure that I cannot allow my resentments and such to control me. Nor can I allow my need to control things by knowing the future to dictate how I behave any longer. 

It is kind of freeing to let go of it; to let things fall into place how they may. I have been a very controlling person. I am still working on my fourth step work. Now I am listing all the harms I have done to various people; and it is a long list. I have about 46 pages of resentments I have built up over the past few years. Those are slowly dissipating as the light has been shed on them. So I am working on myself. I am sad that our marriage has come to this point; but I am not depressed. It doesn't control me. I know I can be fine either way; and I am struggling to make sure that I don't try to "fix" things by pushing in either direction. I'm kind of going with the flow, living pretty easily.

That's my update; it has been a while.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

This sounds very good.

Sounds like you're taking ownership of your own pos tendencies.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Also, my previous posts were perhaps not clear about why I chose to be back in contact with her: I implemented that no contact thing in a way and with motives that were designed to control the situation. I wanted to know what my future held; to know the path I am on leads in some direction: any direction; any goal. So my no contact thing was really meant to push her in a direction and to push myself in a direction. I was playing God, to be frank. My need to know the future and to have a sure path really hampered my ability to live in the present. over the past month and a half something has been lifted from me. I am experiencing life in a freer way. My resentments toward my wife are not as important (nor my resentments toward anybody). I don't feel the need to use them in a tit-for-tat back and forth for a victim's chair any longer. I was an a$$hole, frankly. I needed to control things; to know my career path; to know my future; to be sure. I overworked, ignored others, treated people like things to get my way. I see myself a little more clearly and why I felt I needed to do those things and felt that way. But my 12 Step work and counseling have slowly worked their magic...something has lifted, and I don't hate people any more or feel the need to fight and make a mental list of their wrongs and how I should treat them now...

Anyway...life is good. Limboland doesn't have to be hellish. I am finding that when I give up the need to know my future, this not knowing whether my marriage will end or continue isn't so bad. My attempts to control it and push it toward a future in one direction or another are what has been disastrous for me and harmful to others. So I've given that up. 

Of course, if she ended up with an OM, it would be over. We are clear on that. The EA is over. So anyhow...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> My need to know the future and to have a sure path really hampered my ability to live in the present. .


YES...YES....YES....

It also robbed you of your opportunity to be happy.

Go ahead and claim it now.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> YES...YES....YES....
> 
> It also robbed you of your opportunity to be happy.
> 
> Go ahead and claim it now.


Yeah. Happiness is not in the future. It is not in divorce or reconciliation down the road. It is in living now without the need to control people or my situation. It is a long hard lesson. I'm lucky to see it and to now experience a small taste of what it is like. That is progress for me at least.

I think that is what you mean by detachment. That word could be taken as a kind of stoic thing, where we don't feel at all. I truly am sad about my situation. But I'm happy anyhow because I don't need to control it to make sadness go away. And that means I am not depressed, which is a very different thing than sadness.


----------



## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Wow, your attitude is remarkable, Arendt. That's exactly where I want to be right now (although my situation isn't really limbo - W is going headlong for D).


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Yeah. Happiness is not in the future. It is not in divorce or reconciliation down the road. It is in living now without the need to control people or my situation. It is a long hard lesson. I'm lucky to see it and to now experience a small taste of what it is like. That is progress for me at least.
> 
> I think that is what you mean by detachment. That word could be taken as a kind of stoic thing, where we don't feel at all. I truly am sad about my situation. But I'm happy anyhow because I don't need to control it to make sadness go away. And that means I am not depressed, which is a very different thing than sadness.


GREAT to hear from you Arendt! Many thanks for being a power of example, it is so encouraging to me -- seeing you getting results from putting in the effort. It spurs me to work harder on my own program  

All Best Wishes, - A12


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> Wow, your attitude is remarkable, Arendt. That's exactly where I want to be right now (although my situation isn't really limbo - W is going headlong for D).


Canardo - 

Nice to hear from you -- it has been awhile. Sorry if things are taking a direction you hadn't hoped for, but Arendt has the right attitude, for sure. I'm working on getting some of that serenity and acceptance for myself as well 

I hope you are keeping well and taking good care of yourself -- I know this stuff is stressful.

Cheers, A12


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah. Happiness is not in the future. It is not in divorce or reconciliation down the road. It is in living now without the need to control people or my situation. It is a long hard lesson. I'm lucky to see it and to now experience a small taste of what it is like. That is progress for me at least.
> 
> I think that is what you mean by detachment. That word could be taken as a kind of stoic thing, where we don't feel at all. I truly am sad about my situation. But I'm happy anyhow because I don't need to control it to make sadness go away. And that means I am not depressed, which is a very different thing than sadness.


We need your size for your cap-n-gown.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> We need your size for your cap-n-gown.


 Getting my Ph.D. in 2014. My head size is a little smaller today than it was 6 months ago, when my head was enormous due to the outsized ego stuffed in there.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Canardo said:


> Wow, your attitude is remarkable, Arendt. That's exactly where I want to be right now (although my situation isn't really limbo - W is going headlong for D).


Ah that stinks. I hope you find some peace even though D is being forced on you.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

We missed our appointment this past week because the two routes we tried at getting to our counselor both had construction work and the roads were closed. I was frustrated, but not rude about the situation. I was more frustrated by her telling me about some of the furniture she is getting for her apartment (she's sleeping on an air mattress apparently). I want her to be comfortable, but I don't want to hear about the furniture at present. So I got pretty quiet for a while, which is what I do normally if I am upset or uncomfortable.

This coming week I have art in an charity art auction on Tuesday, that W may come to, and Wednesday there is a big city-wide art festival. I have a piece in a local gallery and our pottery class is setting up there to show off our pieces. My W is coming to that as well. Then we have counseling on Thursday. Friday morning we are both supposed to travel to the next town over for an event. So that is lot of days seeing each other. The most since our separation in February. As part of our separation agreement, we only spend time together outside counseling for events; no individual time talking about issues or chatting.

My main goal during those times is to be nice to her and to have fun regardless. There will be a lot of people around so I'll be able to talk with lots of people besides her.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So my wife and I have been attending counseling still. Not this week or next, but in two weeks we have another appointment (scheduling conflicts for these two weeks). She came to an art auction and to an event last week. She comes to visit the cats without me at home, and that is all the contact we have. 

We've agreed not to date and other such things.

Anyhow...I went to a conference session today at a university, in which I knew a female colleague was presenting a paper on a topic I am interested in. Afterwords we talked for a while then I invited her to come to Whole Foods and get some vegetarian food (we are both vegan), since the conference was not really accommodating her very well. We spent about 5 hours talking at Whole Foods, then I took her back to the conference and we sat for another 20 minutes talking in my car. She knows I am separated. I suppose if my marriage did not work out this person would be somebody I would perhaps try to pursue something with at some point. But neither of us made any moves on each other, nor did we talk about anything inappropriate (common interests like comics, animals, religion, etc.)

Anyway...I probably won't tell this to our counselor or to my wife, since this may be interpreted as a date in some sense. Not sure if I should feel guilty about it but I don't at all.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> So my wife and I have been attending counseling still. Not this week or next, but in two weeks we have another appointment (scheduling conflicts for these two weeks). She came to an art auction and to an event last week. She comes to visit the cats without me at home, and that is all the contact we have.
> 
> We've agreed not to date and other such things.
> 
> ...


Feeling guilty about this is wasting emotion.

This is wholesome good behavior.

Keep at it.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks Conrad. 

It is strange, ever since we started back into counseling I have noticed other women showing an interest in me without me doing anything. I try to keep my distance and never ask other women out for coffee or anything; but I have noticed a number of them coming on to me in various ways. Just today in fact...

That is something I never even noticed before because I really paid little attention to most women. Probably not merely because I am married, but also because of my self-centeredness in which I only pay much attention to people if they can help me in some way, usually people with some kind of power, and there are less women in power who have ever showed any interest in me that seems like flirting or anything. 

So maybe it is a good thing that I notice now...it means I am paying attention to people again and not ignoring folks or seeing them as tools for me to use for career advancement or whatnot...


----------



## loveyoutodeath (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah i am stuck in limbo and have trouble eating as well.I lost 30lbs in 3 weeks.I know it's not good but when i try to eat it makes me gag.But i do keep trying.I am now going to do the 180 hope this help in some way.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Thanks Conrad.
> 
> It is strange, ever since we started back into counseling I have noticed other women showing an interest in me without me doing anything. I try to keep my distance and never ask other women out for coffee or anything; but I have noticed a number of them coming on to me in various ways. Just today in fact...
> 
> ...


Makes it much easier to enjoy every day and be happy.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

You might want to talk to your doctor about getting on anti-depressants for a while. They'll really help calm your body down.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey Conrad,

Yeah I enjoy life. Just got out of the gym, a great workout. I have a great new hobby in painting. I've learned to love graphic novels and comics. I am not resentful and people, usually let things roll.

I still don't know where my wife lives. She won't tell me. I am not resentful about that. I think it is childish and stupid on her part, but it is her issue not mine. I'm doing great. I can honestly say that. I bought her a piece of vegan cheesecake this weekend because she passed her driver's test. She wanted me to take it to a place she was going so I did, then she overslept. I ate the thing. Bought a second piece yesterday, she said she could pick it up today, but I probably won't be home. She said she didn't feel comfortable coming in and getting it out of my fridge. Again, this is her issue. I'll just eat it if she doesn't get it. I don't eat desserts like that too much, so this will be my last attempt (won't want to wreck my workouts). But I'm not resentful about her issues. 

Sometimes I do wonder, seriously, however, whether I want to be married to her any longer. The attention of other women kind of started to awaken that thought in earnest in recent weeks.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You are likely to see that same attention spark an interest in your wife to retain your marriage.

Be ready for it.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hmmm...

I brought some of this up to my IC last week, the attention from women. He helped me see that this attention feels pretty good and see how my wife could have sought it as well. I now understand what she has went through. She got attention and it made her feel really good, when I was ignoring her. She sought it more and more. I could easily fall into that.

He suggested I bring it up at counseling with her. I was planning on keeping it to myself because I don't want a fight about it...am currently rethinking whether to bring it up this week at MC.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> I brought some of this up to my IC last week, the attention from women. He helped me see that this attention feels pretty good and see how my wife could have sought it as well. I now understand what she has went through. She got attention and it made her feel really good, when I was ignoring her. She sought it more and more. I could easily fall into that.
> 
> He suggested I bring it up at counseling with her. I was planning on keeping it to myself because I don't want a fight about it...am currently rethinking whether to bring it up this week at MC.


If it "comes up" within an explanation of anything else, go ahead.

If you make a point of bringing it up, it's not helpful.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah...I don't want to say it to spark jealousy. That would not be helpful, and not very lasting for her to start seeing me as a possession.

IC suggested that it could be a way, however, to tell her I understand what she has went through. I'm not seeking out the attention, unlike what she has done. I'm just noticing it when it comes.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Posting a check-in here.

For the past few weeks I've been doing well. I went to NYC to visit friends, where I used to live. Got a new tattoo at Wooster Street Social Club (highly recommend the place btw). 

I've had a couple counseling sessions with the W. They have not been all that great to be honest. last time was tedious and spent all on process talk. This week we shared some of what we have been learning about ourselves. Her big thing was the excitement of getting an apartment and not being codependent. 

We still have very limited contact outside of counseling. Tonight I had a stray cat come up to me as I was about to enter my building. I fed her. She's clearly been somebody's cat for a while. She is healthy and such. I have two cats, but I brought her inside andisolated her in a room so she and my cats cannot interact. I gave her flea meds and fed her. Tomorrow I'll take her to see if she has a microchip, which I am hoping. If not I know somebody wanting a cat. 

I texted my W to see if she would holdthe cat for the night. She refused. She and I are vegans and have rescued animals before. We have kept them for a few nights even when our leases said no pets. My W has a lease in a place that bans pets. So she brought that up as an excuse. But that is bull. She just didn't want to help.

It made me realize that I really don't like the person she has become. I am not mad at her for not helping. There is some danger to my own cats if this one has something, but I have isolated her. But it would ease my mind if somebody else kept her for the night u til I can take her to get checked. But I am not mad at my W or anything. If I were mad, that would probably show that maybe I still care about her. But frankly, I don't feel anything at all. When she is in counseling talking, I am fairly apathetic. It is hard for me to open up around her, which probably shows some lingering vulnerability to her, but I am not excited to see her, don't have any fun when she is around, and generally don't miss her one bit anymore.

I've committed to going through this MC till October 1 when we reevaluate our separation agreement. I may be ready to move on at that point. I won't be doing it in anger or resentment if I did. I am not trying to hurt her or anything.

This plus the fact that I am getting attention from other women really is pushing me further out the door. Hell, on the train to NYC the woman I sat next to and I talked for 5 hours. She was pretty. She kept flirting with me too. Said my arms are "ripped" and that I will make a "cool professor" that students will really like, etc. She was too young for me, since she was a senior in college and I am about to get my PhD at 37. Still, felt pretty nice to be complemented by a young woman I hardly know. (My gym workouts paying off too!) Anyway...I am a very differnet place than I ever thought I would be when I firat posted here because I was waking with panic attacks at night when my W. left. I thought I would die without her or something. Now, it is a different ballgame altogether.


----------



## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

I really think you are wasting any time you spend with your "wife". Of course she doesn't want you knowing where she lives...but I'm sure OM knows exactly where it is.

This is like the excruciatingly slow removal of a band-aid, complete with pain. What are YOU getting out of the counseling with your estranged wife? 

IMO, she should be doing all of the heavy lifting. You keep blaming yourself over and over in this thread...remember, she left you, and she's telling you how much happier she is on her own. All that does is hurt you over and over again. Why let her continue to do that to you?

I would end the "separation counselling" and move on. If she had any desire to repair and rekindle, she could show you, but she's not. 

I think you deserve to be set free from this. She a serial cheater (2 emotional affairs that you know of, and YES emotional affairs are still affairs), she's a blame-shifter, trickle-truther, and she doesn't show any remorse.

Someone mentioned earlier that this "counselling" was just so she could say that she tried. I think that's exactly what it is to her, but she's not really trying. She wants you to keep hanging on, but she's not even there.

You gonna keep going till October? That's 2 more months of this BS, and 2 more months till you can START moving on. The more removed she is from your life, the better for you. It`s too hard to move on when you still have contact with her...it`s like always getting your hopes up, only to have them smashed into pieces repeatedly.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Great to see your update, Arendt -- glad to hear things seem to be going well. Maybe you are far more detached from your W and more emotionally checked out of the marriage by now -- it sure does not seem like the counselling had brought the loving feelings back?

I also want to say GOD BLESS YOU for helping that stray cat! I hope the owner will find her, but stop letting her outdoors (quickest way to shorten a cat's life -- I have two strictly indoor cats, and they are perfectly happy not going outdoors). I take strays to the local animal shelter, where they will check for an ID chip and if no one comes looking for the pet, they are put up for adoption. 

Keep up the great work, and congrats on the attention you are getting from the ladies -- nice!

Cheers,- A12


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hi A12,

Yeah, counseling has not done much for us yet. Who knows, we are not really that far into it yet. I'm willing to give it a try. I am not losing anything. Gutpunch seems to have struggled with similar types of things. Losing connection is probably normal. Getting back will be a long hard road if we choose that path though. That is part of the counseling, to figure out if we want to do that.

As for the cat, I took her to the Humane Society to see if she had a chip. She did not. Then , shocker, they said she is pregnant. That news effectively put stops on me finding her a home myself. Nobody I know will take in a pregnant cat, and I already have two. I brought her back home for a while, as I mulled over what to do. No way I could find homes for her and her kittens later, nor could she be here with kittens. So I took her back, and HS said they will put her in a foster home actually to nurse her kittens and such. They have a better chance of finding her and her kittens a home than I would. I volunteer at a no-kill shelter in another town, but they have a huge waiting list and all animals have to go through the humane society anyhow. I think she'll be okay. I gave a small donation and a bag of food that my cats decided they no longer want (expensive Orijen!).


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Wow...nearly a month since I posted on here. Time flies.

W. and I are still in counseling. Tough going as far as that stuff goes. No easy or quick fix solutions for sure. Tonight at counseling was pretty rough. She talked about her EA. At first I responded in a way that triggered her anger, because I was not happy about some things she said about that whole thing. She cut ties with him a while back, told him to leave her alone basically. But anyway, the whole story just triggered some anger on my part and at first I kind of responded with some anger. Then, after the counselor prompted me, I was able to talk more helpfully, but by that time she was shut down to hearing what I had to say, which was basically that I know I had a part in pushing her away from me, that I can empathize with her struggles with wanting approval and attention, and that I am not too mad at her anymore, but very pissed at that guy, who I avoid to make sure I don't beat him up or anything. Anyway...

Nevertheless, I am doing well in any case.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Another month passed since I posted. I am still in MC with my W. We are set to put down some new terms of separation this week, which will likely include more contact outside of counseling (we only see each other at MC usually, and sometimes public events). 

We've had some breakthroughs in counseling, but it has been tough going. The one breakthrough we have had, recently, was a result of me admitting that my "love affair" with my career was really not all that different and just as damaging to her as her EA with a real person. I think that realization on my part and allowing myself to own things let her see I can empathize.

Yet things are still rocky and the good will we are building slowly can easily be destroyed. There are days when I just want this to be over so I can get on with whatever is next, and others when I am glad I am committed to the process, whatever the outcome. It is a long road ahead no matter.

But I am well in any case. I continue to make friends and such. I had an art show recently and won an award, W was there and complemented me. We spent a little while walking around afterward.

I took a very part-time job just to be around people a little more, since my PhD work can be so isolating. It has been a good experience, an ego-deflating one since it is a job "beneath" me in terms of education (barista), but I don't care about that stuff too much anymore, or at least I don't let it control me anymore.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Another month passed since I posted. I am still in MC with my W. We are set to put down some new terms of separation this week, which will likely include more contact outside of counseling (we only see each other at MC usually, and sometimes public events).
> 
> We've had some breakthroughs in counseling, but it has been tough going. The one breakthrough we have had, recently, was a result of me admitting that my "love affair" with my career was really not all that different and just as damaging to her as her EA with a real person. I think that realization on my part and allowing myself to own things let her see I can empathize.
> 
> ...


Hey Brother,

I look forward to your updates.

Sounds like you're doing a great job.

Think about how much different this is than 6 months ago... 12 months ago.

Take a bow.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Listening to the Papa Roach album, The Connection, a lot lately. Folks going through issues related to this forum would probably appreciate that album quite a bit.

Had counseling tonight. Very difficult session. W crying a lot. I've clearly caused her a lot of pain, as she has me, and we have not yet been able to get through all of it in three months of counseling. Some of the sessions in the past three months were a waste, spent on process mostly which annoys me. So I am taking a more active role in trying to move sessions into discussions about other things, which are harder to deal with emotionally, but at least they are not tedious! 

I don't see this being "resolved" for many, many months, which ever way we decide to go. I am for reconciliation at some point if possible. She's on the fence, or so she says. But her actions say she probably hopes we can work things out (paying for counseling, coming to them, other actions outside of counseling), but she's being guarded still because I have shown the ability to tear down goodwill pretty quick. I'm paying attention to what she does more than what she says mostly. And her actions say she cares but doesn't want me to hurt her; so her words go with the latter mostly.

Anyway, a long road ahead still with regard to my marriage and working at resolving our issues.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Things are slowly getting better between my W and I. She came to an art show I exhibited at this past Saturday, and spent most of the time hanging out near me, even though she certainly didn't have to and had plenty of opportunities and people to mingle with. She was pretty encouraging about the whole thing. She came on her own, and had to go pretty far out of her way to get to the event. Not only that, but one of her friends dropped out of the event as an artist because she was uncomfortable with some of the acts and had a verbal and kind of nasty skirmish with the organizer. W. could have said she wasn't coming as a result. But she didn't (she told me about the fight, and that the organizer is an *******, but I simply said that he had been nice to me and I am sorry to hear her friend and this guy had gotten into it. I am not going to hold that against the guy. He has always been nice to me, and I am a Christian just like her friend, only I don't lord my views over others and demand they conform to my views by not having a drag queen show for example. I thought it was fun. I mean hell, this is the art world, for crying out loud, not the PTA.)

She also invited me to her apartment, for the first time, for sometime this Friday. 

There are other signs in her behavior as well. 

this despite some statements in counseling that suggest she is confused and not sure whether she wants to stay married. In the last session, I listened to her tell how hurt she has been about some of my actions in the past 8 months of separation, and tried to sympathize. I certainly did my share of hurtful things and affirmed most of what she said. I think that helped her. I am supposed to talk about my view of the last 8 months this week.

Anyway, paying attention to her actions not so much her words, and I see lots of small steps from her toward more healing in our relationship. 

The one thing that came up tonight, however, is that she is planning a house warming for this Sunday. I did not know about that. she invited her coworkers and other folks. I do not know who all from her work was invited, but there is one person I hope she did not invite, and whom she has broken off nonwork contact with. And also, it feels a little like celebrating our broken marriage to celebrate the apartment. It is a safe space for her, I get that. But the house-warming thing feels too much. I plan to speak with my therapist about it tomorrow. how I should respond. Or how I can respond without breaking down any trust we are rebuilding.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

other than that, I have been working on my dissertation with plans to finish in January and working on building up my cache of paintings. I won an award at my first art show, voted best artist. I have sold several paintings in the past few months since going public, and have a number of shows coming up in the next month. I even sold one that went to Taiwan. 

I have been meeting a whole new crowd of people as a result of diving in to the local artist scene and I like it. I hope I can avoid any petty in-fighting that will inevitably be part of such a scene and make friends across the board. Hell, one of the local organizations wants me on the board of directors already (I am young and from the city, which they like). Easy to break in and make friends; that is my purpose anyhow.


----------



## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

I came into this thread very late, but I am so very happy for you Arendt!!!!


oh btw, I found your facebook page by just your name!!!


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Congrats, Arendt, on all fronts! You set a great power of example in the way you discipline yourself in communications with your W. It is great to hear you've seen some positive progress. But the open house thing does seem to send a mixed signal, celebrating her independence? It would be hard for me to not react to that and put a judgement on it, so good for you holding back, gauging your approach with counsel and and not being reactive off the cuff.

Has she invited you to this open house? I'm glad she has been supportive of your success as an artist. I hope this ambivalence can be cleared up and the two of you rekindle and rebuild the marriage, but I admire how well you handle yourself with the limbo and do your part giving her space, being a good listener, etc. It's also good that you'll get to provide your take on the state of things at the next session. 

Hats off to you, sir!

Cheers, - A12


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

No I am not invited. I would feel weird about going, and I suspect she knows that and would not invite me for that reason. But yes, this is a very strange message. I'll bring it up in counseling tomorrow as an example of something that is hurtful and present.

I am invited to come over on Friday, specifically to come before the event on Sunday. So I get the first look. The message is all out of whack. Anyway...I'll bring it up in counseling and see how it goes.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Another month has past since I posted here. 

W. and I are still in counseling. In the last session we had to talk about what we want out of counseling going forward. In the past 3-4 months of counseling we have largely cleared the air, talking about the hurt we caused each other and such. 

We both want to continue counseling. Our counselor said that she has a lot of hope for us because we have made a lot of progress together in the past few months. We are still and will remain living apart for some time, but we are moving toward reconciliation at some point if we keep working at it. 

For now, we are increasing our contact so that we can be more involved in each others' lives, without being around each other all the time or anything. My W. expressed a lot of apprehension about moving forward, in large part because she feels a lot of shame about her own part in this. I tried to be generous and said I don't really hold it against her. The other people in our lives who exploited our marital problems is another matter for me...but most of those people have now broken ties with my W. too. I knew they were untrustworthy people.

She is also apprehensive about the future with her career and mine seemingly at odds. I think that can be worked out as things develop. Nothing to worry about and allow to impinge on my present actions. 

Anyway...things look better in my marriage. But there is a long way to go.

Other than that...I am working to finish my PhD this year and doing a lot of painting. Have sold quite a few paintings in the past few months and have some shows coming up int he next two weeks. So things look good there. The job market for professorships is terrible though..so come May, I have to find a temporary job for now, to buy some time while I try to land a tenure-track position somewhere. Still hitting the gym hard and going to AA, which has been the best thing. Without that 12 step work coupled with IC, I'd be in a very different place.

We have been separated over 9 months now, and I am glad I am at the place I am at in life. Would not have thought that possible when I first began reading these forums, as I woke up in the middle of the night in anxiety attacks, losing weight, little sleep, etc.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Great to hear your update, Arendt! I'm happy for you and all your progress -- it is encouraging to hear how all your work is paying off. Congratulations on closing in on your PhD and your success as an artist. Fingers crossed for a tenured track position for your future, and for reconciliation of your marriage if it is meant to be  

Cheers, - A12


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You are amazingly patient


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm not sure how patient I am. It has more to do with letting go of fear, fear of the future, fear of the present, fear of the past (is it all for nothing, these past 14 years?), fear of myself. I just got tired of living with resentments and all the fear they engendered in me. 

about 6 weeks ago, I saw the guy she had an EA with. I had not seen him in 9 months. We used to be friends. In my head, all kinds of thoughts were swirling...threaten him, attack him, etc. Of course, I did nothing. But my body was in fight mode, as if he were a threat to me. 

He and I passed by without incident, but in my head, there was a battle raging. My body was ready for a fight too and I had no release since there is no way I am going to do something like that. 

Unfortunately, all that tension, unrelieved, took a toll on me. You know how sometimes people freeze and cannot move when they are afraid? Well, over the next 5 days my body completely shut down, as if it were utterly terrified, not of him, but of me...of what I might do (the thoughts in my head...geez!). I was literally bed-ridden from the anxiety. 

But it was all about me. this was not about that dude. He touched a fear in me, that I might do something really freaking crazy toward him which would obviously hurt me. 

I have avoided that person because I have been afraid that I might utterly destroy him if he even glanced at me wrong. But during those five days I was able to finally let that stuff go. I am not longer afraid of myself and what I might do. He's an idiot. A pathetic loser and it just really hit home with me that all this tension and anxiety is about my own fear of myself, not him. He's no threat. I am a lot stronger than he is. I am smarter (****, I've published like 8 books and I am not even done with grad school!), and this whole thing in my head is my issue. 

So I have a lot of issues. I wanted to really hurt that dude, and it caused me severe problems. But I was able to get through it ad come out a bit better. I used to avoid going to the library where he works (at a higher ed place), because I was afraid to run into him. Now I go there when I please. If I were to see him I'd walk on. If he were to approach me (highly unlikely), I'd just ignore him and walk on (ignoring a person is better than a threat or telling them off). Not afraid of my reactions anymore. A big relief.

She cut contact with him back in June. BTW.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

A12: are you still in the 12 Step group? How are things going post divorce? I have not kept up with these forums...


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

After all this time separated, she doesn't have any desire for you. She does not just come over and knock on the door and inititate sex. Your marriage seems dead. Aren't you afraid that if you say you can't wait anymore, she will just agree just like that divorce is long over due?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

No I'm not afraid of that reaction from her if I decided I needed to move on. That time might come at some point. But for now I am fine letting her work through her resentments, fears, and pain in her way. I don't feel like I am in limbo anymore...in some ways I guess I do, but mostly not. I used to see the separation as this purgatory-like situation, but I just don't anymore. 

Marriage isn't dead till divorce. It is definitely in critical condition, but way better than in the summer, when we could hardly sit in the same room together (largely because I had a bad attitude). Things take a long time to repair, if it is possible at all, it will just take time. Which I guess does require patience, but being comfortable with myself and where I am at. I do not need her like I did before. I am not dependent upon her for things any longer and that frees me to be more generous about things somehow.

Whatever happens happens. But whatever becomes of our marriage won't be because I am making bad choices or am pushing the envelope to fit some timetable in my head. Circumstances might push things at some point, but not because I have some need to do it in my own mind.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

It is hard to convey what goes on between two persons. What is attractive about her does not come out. Mostly you have been avoiding each other.


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Arendt said:


> Marriage isn't dead till divorce.


I wonder if she thinks this way.....


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I wonder if she thinks this way.....


Well she hasn't filed and she has paid the bill for counseling until this month (now we are sharing the expense, and she has cut back on other things to help pay her part). 



LongWalk said:


> It is hard to convey what goes on between two persons. What is attractive about her does not come out. Mostly you have been avoiding each other.


Not too many people here talk about about what is attractive about their spouse . She and I see each other several times a week and talk on the other days. We are usually in communication at least once a day if not more. 

But yeah, this is a limping marriage and not sustainable if it stays the norm. It could end up in divorce. I am not keen on staying in the area I am in for too much longer in life. Come May, I will either have my PhD or be very close to it (all but the defense). I've asked my university about teaching next Fall. If I get a green light, that is what I will do, which would require a move if we are not reconciled by that point. 

So yeah, there are some end points, but not because I have a need in my head to move on, nor because I have anxiety about it all. At this point, for me, it is circumstances and her issues, not my own that could end it. That, for me, is a good place to be in. I can be relatively at peace with it. I'm not bouncing off the walls worried about it. I'm not obsessed with the outcome. I certainly hope we can work it out, but I'm not going to be devastated and in the place I was 9 months ago if things fall apart. 

My sense is that she is dealing with resentment, shame, and fear in her own life. If she can get past that stuff, which is all on her, then we got a chance. My part is simply not to make things worse by forcing issues when I do not need to do so, and modeling a kind of "patience" as you suggested without being a doormat. She is in IC and is trying to find a way to release this stuff. But it is really hard. I understand that. If I had not been in AA, I do not think I could have dealt with all this in a good way. In that sense, I am better off than she is for having a discipline like the 12 Steps that specifically pull those poisons out of a person (resentment, fear, and self-centeredness).


----------



## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

You're an inspiration, Arendt.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Wife and I had some long conversations today, which she initiated. 

She has expected me to react very differently than I have reacted to thing she has said in counseling and such. Several weeks ago she broke down in counseling, just broke, after saying she was not sure she could be married to me. She expected me to walk out, to tell her off, to strike back in a hurtful manner somehow. But I didn't. She was rolled up on the couch and I could tell this was about her, not me. She is really hurting and in a difficult space. So I moved closer to her. Eventually she ended up on her knees hugging me in my chair. After counseling we had one of the most intimate and frank discussion we have had for a very long time. No guards were up. No coldness.

She said in this week's counseling that that experience caused her to think that maybe we can learn to relate to one another again in a healthy way.

So we talked today in my apartment on her initiation. She comes over every Friday, mainly to visit our cats, but we usually interact some. 

We talked about what to do with the holidays and logistics about my new work schedule teaching in another city part of the week (she will stay at my apartment part of the time to take care of the cats). But we also talked for over an hour about where each of us are at. Her fears are mainly that she has learned and is learning to gain some independence in life. She has spent a long time in one codependent relationship after another (not romantic, but even friends and other family...she is the "fixer"). She does not want to give that up. I agreed with her. She shouldn't. I affirmed her, and said I think we can learn to live with each other without being dependent. 

Her other concern was for the future. I have been so career focused in the past...just a workaholic. And she has her own aspirations. But my focus has changed a lot and I am a lot more flexible at present on where I go down the road. 

Her final concern was that she has had some sexual abuse issues in her childhood and she has not dealt with them in counseling yet. Nor has she dealt with the underlying issues of her attractions to other men. She has never done anything physically with these other men, but the attractions have been strong and come from a dark place in her. The last one was an EA (I believe her about it never having been physical...to me it wouldn't matter...the real connections are at the emotional level anyhow and that is the hardest part of it for me to deal with). She feels like she needs space to work on this in counseling without feeling pressure from me to work on our marriage with reconciliation as the goal. 

I think she's right about that too. I understand attractions. They are natural. But her unresolved past issues need to be dealt with. 

Over all we were able to finally have a conversation about our lives without a counselor present. months ago, when we started separation counseling we could barely sit in a room together and the sessions always ended in angry words. We have come a long way since then. But a long way is ahead if anything is to be done further between us. 

The 180 stuff works (180 in the sense of doing an about turn on the bad behaviors from before)...she said that it would be easier if I had not changed much. It would make it easy to walk away. But she does not want to do that. She sees the changes in me and feels like she would regret it if she did, and would feel awful were some other woman get to be with the "new" me. She's confused. She's still hurting from things that are not in my power to change and not my fault. 

As for me, this is hard. It is hard to deal with in a way in which I don't just say to h3ll with it and walk away. But I have spent so much time in life cutting people out that this is in some way good for me. And I am making it very hard for her too in a good sense. If she wants to walk, I am not going to make it easy by being an a$$. But from our conversation today, what she really wants is for me to not pressure her to much, to continue talking, getting together and counseling, and becoming more comfortable with each other, and and some space to work on her own issues. This is not on me at all. What is on me is to be patient. Patience is not easy...it has never been a strong suit with me


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Wife and I had some long conversations today, which she initiated.
> 
> She has expected me to react very differently than I have reacted to thing she has said in counseling and such. Several weeks ago she broke down in counseling, just broke, after saying she was not sure she could be married to me. She expected me to walk out, to tell her off, to strike back in a hurtful manner somehow. But I didn't. She was rolled up on the couch and I could tell this was about her, not me. She is really hurting and in a difficult space. So I moved closer to her. Eventually she ended up on her knees hugging me in my chair. After counseling we had one of the most intimate and frank discussion we have had for a very long time. No guards were up. No coldness.
> 
> ...


Never too late to grow up, is it?

Take a bow.

She's getting awfully close to acknowledging that she is simply disordered. Could be a Mavash-like transformation in the offing.

Keep @50k and stay the course.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks Conrad. Well she knows that she has these issues. She has been working on the codependent thing for a while and that is one of the biggest things she fears about working at our marriage: that she will lose those gains. She has never lived alone. She lived with her mother till we got married (in part that is Caribbean culture...and she would say that back then when I tried to get her to get her own place). 

The main issue I struggle with is patience. Very difficult not to interpret her actions as designed to hurt me. But ultimately I don't think that is what she means. If anything, she worries too much about hurting me and in the process makes me feel bad. It is codependent thing. She still tries to control the situation. So, for example, instead of inviting me over to help decorate her tree, as she thought about doing, she decided not to do so because I might feel bad about the other people who were there (people I have no problem with in reality). I was kind of hurt by that, and it was very difficult for me not to interpret that as deliberately designed to exclude me. I mean she could have given me priority and invited me before others or whatever. So there is that. But on the other, she stayed up late at night fretting about it and stuff. Blah....my part is not to react. My counseling and AA work have a role there. I only go to IC every other week now, and will cut back to once a month soon. I'm doing well on that score. 

In counseling when she broke down, I see what you mean by 50,000 feet. I was observing her...I could see, with a little space, that this was about her. That she was saying what she needed to say, but that it also was not a fixed position. I knew then that she was confused or she would not have broken down. Our MC said in the session that she saw her not as done, but as conflicted as well. When the MC said that I knew I was on the right track.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

It has now been a few months since I posted. Not much has changed in my relationship with my W. really. I am teaching at a university in another city and commute 3 hours once a week for a three day stay, then return. I considered moving, but I am not ready to do that yet.

She and I have lunch once a week, talk on the phone while I am in the other city, and have regular contact throughout the week. Most of the texting is logistical stuff since she cat sits while I am away. We are not in counseling any longer since I am gone half the week. 

Since May is a time when both our leases are up and my employment situation will change (end of the semester), we agreed to let that be a kind of deadline on what to do about our marriage.

My sense is that she wants a divorce but has not mustered the courage to go through with it. When I was considering moving she made no attempt at all to try to keep me from going, but stated she would not move. That is a big issue in itself. There are no teaching gigs where I am at currently. I will have to move if I want a tenured position at some point. I didn't handle the potential moving situation well, which made things worse between her and I, but not irreparable.

We have a cordial relationship, but not one that is very close I would say. We have more contact with each other throughout the week than we do with any other people. I helped her get a lecture series together this month for a speaking thing she had. She comes to my art shows and that sort of thing. But I don't see this as a marriage at all. 

At any rate...there is an end point in this whole separation and it is coming in a few months one way or another. I am going to stick through the process and be looking for work. There is actually a good prospect for a teaching post somewhere that could come through for the Fall...which would entail a big move.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt,

Sadly, I think she's letting you know she's comfortable with you as a best girlfriend.

I doubt you need one of those.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I know. 

She texted me a little while ago and wanted to come over early (to drop off our car) and to share something she learned in church yesterday...dreading that sharing time. Who knows what that will be. 

Church can be a great place of healing or a terrible place where people learn to associate God with all sorts of things (warring, nationalism, their own selfishness, etc). So we shall see...


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

In fact here she is in the drive...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> In fact here she is in the drive...


Keep us in the loop


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She came over because at church she heard a sermon about "denial" and wanted to apologize (again) for her EA and start admitting to herself in stronger terms how destructive that was to her and to our relationship.

Didn't expect that. I responded by giving her a hug and saying that I hope she can find a way to move on from it and that I don't hold anything against her for it. We were both hurting because we were both treating each other badly, and neither of us really knew how to deal with that then. So we defaulted to some pretty unconscious patterns. I handled things poorly quite often too. 

I did say that I will probably never be able to be around that OM. (Secretly, I hope he gets hit by a truck on his stupid bike!  ). But that I do not hold it against her.

At the same time, in my head, old AA things were going through my head about how apologies don't mean sh!t. It is action that matters. I was generous with her. I did not want to crush whatever might be going on with her. And apologies can mean something, especially if a person has been reluctant to do them in the past. And my W. rarely apologizes for things. She's very stubborn. So it is a good step. 

But she still lives downtown. She still works in the same place. She can see that destruction but unless she is willing to commit to our marriage, then it doesn't really matter in the end for me. It might matter somehow for her in making her less stubborn. But she cannot be "transparent" about this with anybody but me and her IC. Her job would not take kindly to this. Her friends would be judgmental. Her church would look down on her. She's in a hard place with it. That has to be tough to live like that. 

Anyway, it was unexpected and I am glad it was not something else that she learned in church. I would have thought, however, that her IC would have helped her see this after a year or more of counseling. What a waste.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> She came over because at church she heard a sermon about "denial" and wanted to apologize (again) for her EA and start admitting to herself in stronger terms how destructive that was to her and to our relationship.
> 
> Didn't expect that. I responded by giving her a hug and saying that I hope she can find a way to move on from it and that I don't hold anything against her for it. We were both hurting because we were both treating each other badly, and neither of us really knew how to deal with that then. So we defaulted to some pretty unconscious patterns. I handled things poorly quite often too.
> 
> ...


When someone wants to be with you, you don't have to guess.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> When someone wants to be with you, you don't have to guess.


Trying to keep something secret for a long period of time rarely works out but I wish her luck.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah especially when her husband is not too bent on protecting the OM. One of these days, I will crush him. He';s a professor at a religious institution. He abused his power. He should not be in that post. He did that in his first year as a professor. No tenure yet. Just wait till he has job security...

I don't want to put much energy into that POS, but there is no way I can really let it just die. Someday, it has to come out. He recently wrote a piece decrying sexual abuse in the church. I was sickened to read it. Hypocrit.

Anyway...I don't see this interaction today as in any way some kind of shift on her part. I am going to go through the process we both agreed on. Which entails meeting and talking deliberately over some issues and questions our MC is giving us. But I don't expect it to go to reconciliation. She's just too hardened at this point. And if she won't move toward being a wife rather than a stupid acquaintance, then I don't want this. And I sure as hell am not going to throw away my PhD to work in a factory so she can stay in this dumpy place.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah especially when her husband is not too bent on protecting the OM. One of these days, I will crush him. He';s a professor at a religious institution. He abused his power. He should not be in that post. He did that in his first year as a professor. No tenure yet. Just wait till he has job security...
> 
> I don't want to put much energy into that POS, but there is no way I can really let it just die. Someday, it has to come out. He recently wrote a piece decrying sexual abuse in the church. I was sickened to read it. Hypocrit.
> 
> Anyway...I don't see this interaction today as in any way some kind of shift on her part. I am going to go through the process we both agreed on. Which entails meeting and talking deliberately over some issues and questions our MC is giving us. But I don't expect it to go to reconciliation. She's just too hardened at this point. And if she won't move toward being a wife rather than a stupid acquaintance, then I don't want this. And I sure as hell am not going to throw away my PhD to work in a factory so she can stay in this dumpy place.


Sounds like you're being honest with yourself.

I thought she might respond with some sort of spark.

You'll likely have to wait for that until it's completely done.

By then, it's likely you won't care anymore.


----------



## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Arendt,

I think it's time to file.

File and have her served. Enough is enough.

Take charge of the situation. 

It's much better when you are in control. I speak from experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Arendt,
> 
> I think it's time to file.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well it might very well get to that. But we have agreed to wait till April on any decisions. 

Our MC has given us a resource to work through in the meantime based on the 12 Steps called “Open Hearts: Renewing Relationships with Recovery, Romance & Reality” by Patrick Carnes, Debra Laaser, and Mark Laaser. We have not started working through it yet, but it could be really helpful. It has a definite process to go through, which we have to tailor to our needs. And I like that she recommended something based in 12 Step recovery, since that has been very helpful to me personally over the years. If it helps us recover our marriage great. If it does not, it will still be worth doing. I'm not going to look back and wish that I had done more at least if we end up in divorce. And what is a few months when it has been a year?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If you want to change things, what is to stop you from trying to have sex with her? Do you know about her cycle can you make a pass at when she will be physiologically at her horniest?

What have you to lose? If she rejects you, it will make divorce that much easier. You need to put a move her.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So I am at the end of my rope on this. Had a three hour talk with W today. We had already set May as a deadline, but I am ready to give up or get on with reconciliation. We have a MC session on Wednesday. 

By April, one way or another this limbo has to stop. 

Told W. that today. I can give her some time to work through issues, and we can go through the exercises our MC has given us, that she found, and that I found in "More than Just Friends" (about recovering from infidelity). But this has to lead to a decision, no more limbo, no more waiting.

In the meantime, I am putting my CV (an academic form or a resume) out to several places for temporary work, all of which would require moving pretty far. I am also looking at nonprofits to get some temporary work. I am doubling down on trying to finish my dissertation by summer, defending in the late summer early fall ,and having the PhD by the Fall semester or around that time. 

I've been commuting three hours to a city half the week to teach and that ends in May. So my situation is up in the air right now after May, so I am focusing on what to do next, which has kind of pushed me to push her to get her act together. I am ready and willing to leave at this point. If a job came tomorrow, I would pack and go by the end of the week with no regrets. I have tried. I stayed. I worked on myself and am better for it. But I can go. Mentally I am ready to let go.

Yet I still think it worth letting her make a decision here. If she wants to reconcile, then I am willing to try, knowing that even then it might not work. But if she can commit to a process for reconciliation, moving back in together, and such things, then I will do that for now. 

But yeah...all that patience is now running thin with the realities of life hitting: changes in other areas are forcing a shift here too, and it needs to happen soon.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Your situation has some similarities with other TAM posters, Moxy, LostLove77, Racer, Harken Banks, Sammy, **********. All of them are waiting in limbo stuck because of some anemic blend of wistfulness and crushed hope. Call it oneitis if you like.

To me it sounds as if even you ate a wonderful meal in candle light drank a bottle or red wine, you still would not try to kiss her and she would not allow you do in any event.

Your marriage is a ghost even if you never had divorce to confirm that life had left it.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well I told her I wanted a decision on whether she woudl want to work toward reconciliation or divorce, andI wanted that decsion by our counseling session tomorrow (Wed.). She came over after work:

Divorce.

Not what I want really. But this limbo does have to change. 

But just when I thought I was ready, at peace with it even if she chose divorce, I broke down. It was a tough talk, both of us crying and such. 

We have been so guarded for so long...only in times where we are both crushed emotionally do we let those guards down. So, of course, I offered another solution: let's take two weeks, spend time together daily, just doing things we enjoy and doing them together, and letting all of this go; just drop it all and have fun, be open, and "pretend" like we are what we would want this to be.

I just couldn't go ahead and say alright, let's do the divorce. THis is hard, hard, hard. Even after a year. Even after all that work. I guess it matters is why, she matters. I matter.

We have a counseling session tomorrow. She said she needed to think about my proposal, that she could see many good things about it, and yet....

So tomorrow, if she is now pushed into resolution then I'll have to muster up the courage to let go. If she wants to try this little thing, who knows, I don't know. Something has to give. The marriage is over except on paper. Can you rekindle things this late in the game?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I wish you hadn't left the decision to her.

She's going to string you along for maximum drama.

FWIW, we rekindled it with her expressing the white hot passion of "I want divorce from you asap"

But, you need the courage to move forward.

Anticipate your new life and relish it.

Keep us apprised and stay in touch.

This may not be over... but you'll be ok even if it is.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah, but something tells me to exhaust the options...no regrets. I'm pretty much there.

My life will be fine. In the short term I have some hard months ahead financially. I put off my dissertation and applying for good jobs in hopes this could work out. Come May, I am in some trouble. I need a job for a year or more (I can't work for minimum wage or anything either...graduate school bills don't allow that).

But in the long run, I will be fine. I am almost sure to get a good job in a university with my academic achievements. She is likely to hold me back in that area, since she like where we live and doe snot want to move. So for me, this could be a good thing in terms of a career. And I am sure, if I want to, I can meet a person to spend life with, lessons learned and not repeating the same mistakes again. 

But knowing all that, this is till not easy at all. Letting go is really hard. And for me, maybe it is a good thing that I am holding on till all the options are done. I easily discard people in most circumstances. I easily shut down, switch a button inside and cut people off if I want. I have worked hard at tempering that over the past year.

A question lingers with me: was it manipulative behavior on my part to throw down an ultimatum: decide!, and then offer another option when she did? I did not intend to do that, but still...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah, but something tells me to exhaust the options...no regrets. I'm pretty much there.
> 
> My life will be fine. In the short term I have some hard months ahead financially. I put off my dissertation and applying for good jobs in hopes this could work out. Come May, I am in some trouble. I need a job for a year or more (I can't work for minimum wage or anything either...graduate school bills don't allow that).
> 
> ...


All I can tell you brother.

Do what you have to do and let the chips fall where they may.

She's had plenty of time.

Move forward.. if she decides to throw in, let us know


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Arendt,

You are an intellectual and have analyzed your situation back and forth, creating hope out the steel girders of your faith and commitment. She had to come and weld them together, but she has declined.

Even now you have too much of this negotiation, which makes you appear needy.

Without intimacy, I don't see your marriage going anywhere.

You will survive and you have an outlet in art.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah. I had an IC session today and he helped me come to terms with the end. We had an MC counseling session not long after. My IC helped me have a goal of accepting the end if she wanted it and going ahead and severing contact.

However, our MC suggested we sit on this for at least a week, have no contact in the meantime, create distance between ourselves and then come back and see if divorce is what we want. 

We agreed to that.

Honestly, I have not been in my 12 Steps meetings for about 4 months, I have stopped praying, I have fallen back into patterns of withdrawal (though not as bad as before), that did not give her any comfort and security. I have to own up to my part here. 

Tonight I am at peace. I really am. NO anxiety. Like a weight is off my shoulders. My AA sponsor fell off the deep end back in NOvember, so tonight I talked with a guy and we agreed to work together. He is a great person and I should have done this months ago rather than trying to go this alone. S

Whatever happens in my M, and it is very very likely to go to divorce, I have to get myself back into the path I know is most healthy for me. I have also quit meetings for the past four months since my sponsor left (hard to see somebody do that), and since I started teaching...that is not good for me. It pulls me off a path of being helpful to others and into my intellectual world, where I can imagine things, where I can become a perpetual victim and professional blamer. 

I'm going to be fine, you are right Long Walk. But the end has to come in its own way in my situation. And I have to be at peace with it as it comes. I'm getting there, ready to accept what I cannot change.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah. I had an IC session today and he helped me come to terms with the end. We had an MC counseling session not long after. My IC helped me have a goal of accepting the end if she wanted it and going ahead and severing contact.
> 
> However, our MC suggested we sit on this for at least a week, have no contact in the meantime, create distance between ourselves and then come back and see if divorce is what we want.
> 
> ...


Arendt,

I admire your honesty with yourself.

What you describe isn't exactly sticking to your knitting.

But, we all have temptations to float instead of doing the hard work.

Time to get back on the horse.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks Conrad. I have not adapted to the commute in a good way that helps me maintain my hard won gains over this past year. I see it and have felt it for a while. So yeah, back! 

On the other hand, does that have to be a deal-breaker with her? She has responsibility here too and this is not all about me. So we both have a role to play and we both have to make choices that lead to a marriage or a divorce.

One of the reasons I am so reluctant to do certain things is because I am careful of my own motives and reasons for things. Those really matter. Character matters to me more than getting something over for the sake of getting it over. Things have to end one way or another. But as a person, I want to come through this well, saying I did my best, saying I am better and stronger for it. With few regrets. And I am mostly there right now.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> On the other hand, does that have to be a deal-breaker with her?


No it doesn't.

But, that's her decision.

And, the most wonderful (and terrifying) part of this is that we don't own what others choose to do.

Remember Conrad's golden rule

1) People do that which they wish to do 

2) People do not do that which they do not wish to do

It's really that simple.

When they show us who they are, believe them.

It takes courage, but it brings peace.


----------



## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

I just re-read this thread. It sounds like you have been treading water this whole time, hoping she'll come around. Then you finally think you've had enough, and you ask her....she says divorce, and even then you can't accept it. You simply can't pull the plug, even though she has been showing you for so long that she's not into this.

Dude, I feel for you...I really do...but you deserve someone who really wants to be with you. Do you really want someone who will forever be wavering on whether or not they really want to be with you? It should be fairly cut n dry...it isn't that ponderous.

I think she's just stringing you along and you have been allowing it. 

Take back your life. Stop waiting and make a move yourself. Seriously...until now, you have obviously decided that you will do whatever it takes to stay together and she has decided the exact opposite. Unless that is what you want for a foundation moving forward, accept reality and just end it yourself.

Maybe she just doesn't want to hurt you that bad, but regardless, she's soooo not into this and she's tried telling you.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks tulsy. 

I am letting go. Last night and today I called my closest friends and family and told them we are getting a divorce. That sort of thing makes it more real. None of them are shocked and offered support. I've done my best here. But just telling people, real people I know, makes it real and easier to accept. 

This morning I put in applications for jobs in other cities. I am mentally preparing to move away here, to work and live someplace else without her input at all. I have put that sort of thing off.

I will spend the afternoon writing my dissertation, which needs done if I am to get a long term job in academics. I will also finish a few more applications for jobs in other places.

So I am letting go. I have let go. I am not, however, going to rush up to the courthouse so this can be done on paper. That is not what I agreed to at counseling. And following through on that agreement is important. At the next session, when she says she still wants a divorce, I am going to accept it. I accepted at counseling this last time. I told her if she wanted it I am okay with it. Go ahead. But she wanted to wait as the counselor suggested. So I am okay with that.

In the meantime, my operating assumption is divorce. I am telling my friends and family. I am making concrete moves to prepare to leave the place I currently live within a few months. To start fresh somewhere where I want to be, a city.

So thanks tulsy for the encouragement. That is what I am doing.


----------



## Kevinb (Jan 8, 2012)

Best of luck with it Mate...out of interest, why does your counselling person suggest putting it off?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

MC suggested we wait because my wife is unsure and the MC thought it best not to do anything rashly or in anger.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Spent the day talking with friends and applying for jobs in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Cincinnati. I also did some inventory stuff on myself, looking at ways I have not responded well. I have not been very gracious or given her the benefit of the doubt quite a bit, and at key junctures. That had to be hard on her. 

For instance, we agreed to talk on the phone at Christmas and with each other's family. My mother said no, so when W called, I told her that it was not a good idea to talk to family members ad did not say why. That really hurt her. She had talked with her mom about it all and such. I probably should have told her what my mother said rather than protecting her (which didn't work anyhow) and then went ahead and spoke to her mother. Followed through as best I could.

Or how I broke an agreement we made on Sunday to do some exercises our counselor gave us that might help us decide how to move forward, divorce or something else. After a fraught conversation, because she wanted to use a different resource I was unsure about, about emotional abuse, we finally agreed to something. Then I switched gears two days later and demanded a decision. All that was based on insecurity in me about things and an inability to give her the benefit of the doubt rather than place motives on her. SO I have set things in motions sometimes that have caused us turmoil by not following through, by not opening up, by projecting, and by turning my attention to controlling things rather than focusing on keeping myself at an even and steady pace, able to respond out of a firm place and not fear of pain. 

So yeah..soul searching as well. She has her own part. But I have my part in having kept all this in a state of deadness. Very difficult to open up to me if I am not communicating things well, shutting down when things get hard again, and shifting plans rather than going ahead and following through.

That is why I am going to follow whatever we decided this past session. WE are supposed to have little contact and reflect on ourselves. W said she would text me Friday to just check-in, and I was fine with that, and will reply, but will not email, text, or call otherwise till sometime later next week about setting up a new appointment.

She will still sit my cats while I am away next week as well (she enjoys that actually).


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt,

Sounds like you're still wracked with doubt.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

no. I see this self-reflection as necessary for my own growth. I should have been doing this more over teh past few months. 

That does not mean I think she will do the same, or even if she does that this will be reconciled. 

But if I cannot deal with myself honestly, admit my part, then how will I be any good in future relationships, not having really learned to lok at myself?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Both you and your wife are unconventional types. You hace probably both considered this to be an attraction. In truth, it has not been sufficient for trust and intimacy. You and your wife meet and talk but do not risk emotion. Tell her to come and sleep together one last time with no strings attached. If she says no, you will have closure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kevinb (Jan 8, 2012)

Could be a hard call on that one LW... If she agrees emotionally Arendt could be back to square one. I feel for you Arendt I am in a similar situation but much earlier on in the piece. My thoughts are with you Pal
Kev


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Could be. But what is the point of a long separation without intimacy?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

None of our talks so far are about our relationship. Our MC said to steer clear of that stuff. That is good advice in my view. I will not talk about that stuff today either. We are both writing articles (in my case a dissertation and in hers a chapter for a book) on a similar topic, so we are going to talk about that stuff today and a lecture series we both attended over the weekend. No need to beat ourselves up with difficult discussions about marriage without some guidance from others. We are both kind of screwed up and need help.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Arendt,

Avoiding relationship discussion seems wise. 

Re: sex & intimacy
At the end of the day I do not recommend some mechanical act. Both you and your wife are having trouble overcoming vulnerability. To make love might help you both to recover energy and enthusiasm for your relationship. Call it a jump start. 

You have dating your wife for months now. What would reconciliation mean for you? Surely your desire is not to end up living like brother and sister.

If you have both been celibate all this time it may be awkward at first but do you have good memories of being sexually active?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Im at my university. Traveling home tonight.

Over the past week I have come to accept the end of this marriage. We are meeting with our counselor on Sunday afternoon. I fully expect my W. to re-affirm that she wants a divorce. 

I read over this thread as well as my journal for the past year. Some of the same things I was saying last year at this time, are still an issue. Not the EA, but the detachment stuff. A year ago, things really fell apart badly and we've not been able to pick it up again. I see pretty clearly where I pushed her away unnecessarily. I also see pretty clearly where she has continued to push me away unnecessarily.

My plan for Sunday is to simply accept whatever she says about ending the marriage. But I also plan to set out my terms. For me to move on, this has to be the end of the relationship, not just the end of the marriage. She wants to be "friends." I will not be able to move on with her checking up on me, with continued conversations and such things. I will continue to get sucked back into her world, probably wondering and hoping we can patch things up. Never really able to let go.

For my own emotional security, I will have to let this relationship go completely. Not to punish her or to run away. But simply to be able to actually let it go. So I plan to start living like a divorced person from that time on; from Sunday onward. 

I am considering whether to bring a copy of divorce papers with me so we can go ahead and get on with the agreement and not drag it out. I want her to pay the fee, since she is the one who wants the divorce. Not sure if I should say I want her to fill them out and file as well...what do you-all think? If she wants it, she should do it I guess. Maybe I shouldn't bring a copy...

We don't need lawyers. no property (a used car, but that will not be a problem). No kids. This can be clean and easy. No bitter fights over such things. That is a good thing.

I am also planning to ask for my keys. She currently cat sits for me while I am away teaching. I will try to find somebody else to do this for the next 6 weeks or so.

Anyway, that is where I am at. I've told my friends and family that this is coming, which helped make it real to me. I've processed it with my IC, who helped me come up with this plan, and helped me accept that this is the end more than likely. I have also learned where I am at fault for the past few months and am taking steps to get back on track for my own sake.

In the meantime, we have interacted quite a bit over the past week. I have been cheerful, upbeat, talkative, inquisitive, and in general pleasant. I have not been withdrawn or sullen. When she has said things that I could take personally, that could push me to get down or withdraw, I have reacted instead with more grace, still continuing to talk, to ask questions, whatever. 

So I feel good about how I have behaved this past week. I feel like I am on the right track. I don't want the end of our relationship, but if she wants it, and she cannot and will not actually commit to finding a way to reconcile, to let go of stuff herself, then I'm okay with this. I don't want a dead marriage or relationship.

My main focus right now is on finishing my dissertation, finding a temporary job for the next year and a half or so, while I apply for university posts, and making sure I stick to my 12 Step work.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sound plan.

Not friends, no not as it hurts.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Arendt - 

I am so sorry it is coming down to this, as it is not the outcome you hoped for. I was in the awful same place for over a year -- waiting on my XH to take care of the D, but wishing for R instead. He ultimately filed and we've now been divorced for 10 months. Hey, at least you can take comfort in knowing you both tried. You really tried hard. My XH was never once even open to couples counselling (he did do IC, but with the same shrink he'd been seeing the past decade, since before I ever met him). I felt that this was a cop out on his part, but since I was the one who tanked my marriage due to my relapse, who am I to judge, right?

It sounds to me as if you honestly did everything in your power to give the marriage a chance to be revived, and the results are now out of your hands. I also agree, for your emotional health it will be best if you can let go entirely. Acknowledge she was a very important person in your life, but you accept that this chapter is finished, and allow space in your life to open up to a new chapter. When/if I ever run into my XH now, I just smile and nod politely, and walk on by -- call it polite avoidance.

I think it is fair to say in counselling that you did not want this outcome, and for that reason you prefer for her to be the one to file. But ultimately we can't control what others do, so you do have the option to file yourself so as not to be dependent on her to take action and leave yourself vulnerable to her foot dragging or manipulation.

Best of luck with getting through this process, and with your dissertation. I hope that when you apply for University posts you will land a position in a great new location where you can make a fresh new beginning  

You are an amazing thoughtful bright guy with a terrific future that awaits you! Cutting the chord on the past is rough, but I can only tell you it gets better -- it really does. You will get through this, heal from it, and emerge a more centered and wisened person with the capacity for much rich love and happiness in your life  

Hang tough, chin up, and keep us posted.

Very Best Regards,- A12


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks A12. Just got home. While up in MilwaukeeI met with a friend who is also getting divorced. HE has been separated for 8 months and his wife filed. But was telling me how many regrets he has ( he cheated on his wife and drugs were an issue for him). He can't sleep and is only now really processing that he is the primary cause of the trouble in his life and marriage. 

I tried to be encouraging to him by pointing out ways he could learn from it and such.

I left that conversation grateful that I can look back without any of that shame and guilt. Still is not what I want, but it is not because I have not tried or because I just totally screwed things up. I have my part. But I have worked on that stuff and still am. 

That conversation was a lesson for me that I am doing the right things regardless. I could sit there and not feel ashamed; not have to worry about whether my colleagues will find out how bad I am or whatever. I can be transparent if I need to be. I've done what I can.

My W. may very well foot drag on the actual filing part. 

I'm looking for work hard. I can move anywhere. Anywhere. There is a certain freedom to that. I will not go just anywhere, but I can (Pretty much I am northern person, a city person, and I don't see myself overseas at all).


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So I have MC tomorrow with W. She borrowed our car tonight and will come by tomorrow so we can go to the session. She clearly thinks she is going to continue to borrow it and to cat sit for me while I am away. She mentioned how she needs to borrow it till Spring so she can do some things on Sunday. Once it warms, she wants to go back to walking.

Yet there is no change really in her basic demeanor and attitude. That statement still indicates that she plans to stay separated and probably sign a new lease when hers is up in May. No basic change in attitude or plans. So I expect her to reaffirm her choice to divorce. But she expects us to just carry on like this anyhow. She's in for an awakening. I just made the second round of interviews for an editor position at a press, and I will take it if they offer it (till I find a university post in a year or more). I'm making plans to get out of here, and doors may be opening.

Even if she were to say that she wants to work on things further, I just don't see any basic change. It would be more of the same. See each other here and there, text about boring stuff about the car and cats, or me helping her in her research: no romance, no real engagement. I'm not interested. That is why I pushed the issue a couple weeks ago. I'm ready to move on if she is not ready to actually commit to a serious process and to letting things go.

So my plan is the same. I am not going to bring D. papers with me. No need. In my state they have a PDF. I have it filled out. I can send it to her. She can fill out her part. We have no property, no kids, our debts are divided already. There is nothing really to squabble over of any consequence. A used car, maybe. But she won't make that an issue. I plan to accept divorce if she wants it, and if she changes her mind, to say I need some very clear and concrete changes on her end in any case. Without that, I'm ready to end the relationship completely. I don't see her being able to really and honestly committing to anything.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You've come a long way. In truth, she wants you hanging on. It will be better for both of you to resolve the situation.

I still think that if you want any chance of reconciliation, you need to give relationship discussions and make a move on her. Stand somewhere and tell her to come to you. If and when she does you need to intitiate intimacy. If she rejects you, then you know she is not attracted.

It is even odd that she has not cheated on you during this long separation. Doesn't she have sexual desire? A hunger for physical affection?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well, we had the MC session and she said she wants a divorce as I expected, well she said she would like to talk about moving into a relationship in which we are no longer married. That is, friends.

I said that I see this as the end of the relationship. I will not be able to have contact because it will keep drawing me back in, making me wonder and giving me false hope if she is really done.

I took her home from counseling. She went to get some books of mine and to write me a check. I had said I would file so that this does not drag out. I am right now second-guessing that decision. Why should I do this when I don't want it deep down?

This is pretty hard. No matter how much I think I am ready to hear it, it hurts like hell. 

I sat in the car for a long while in front of her building. I texted her to say if she actually wants to say goodbye I am still down there. So she was going to go for a walk and was already out back. She came around...we walked for a few minutes. Hugged...I asked if she was sure...asked if there is no chance she could open up to me again...said something about a future together or kids or whatever. She was crying...then she walked away.

That was that.

On the way home a POS cop gave me a seatbelt ticket. Jerk. I told him what had happened and he still gave me the ticket. Cops can be real pricks sometimes.

I called my parents to let them know again. They might help me with some moving expenses in the near future. I cannot stay here. I think I will chase her. If see that OM from a year ago, I might attack him instinctively, vain hopes that it would make me feel better (I know it won't...but I'm pretty hurt and I don't need that kind of temptation at present). So I should probably get the heck out of here soon. 

This is hard...I want to talk her out of it. I know I can't. But I want to.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Well, we had the MC session and she said she wants a divorce as I expected, well she said she would like to talk about moving into a relationship in which we are no longer married. That is, friends.
> 
> I said that I see this as the end of the relationship. I will not be able to have contact because it will keep drawing me back in, making me wonder and giving me false hope if she is really done.
> 
> ...


Talk to us instead - talk to your IC

Do not talk to her under any circumstances.

And, no, you don't have to file - althought, at this point, it might jumpstart you towards feeling better.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I just talked to my sponsor. I am going to spend the evening talking to friends and family for the most part.

I think I might let the filing part go to her. This is her decision, she can do it. She needs to follow it through if she wants it, to feel the pain of going to the courthouse and such. If she foot drags too long, then maybe I'll need to do it, especially if I move and meet a somebody down the road or something. But the more I think about it, the more I think this is her responsibility. I should not have offered to do it, and taking that on myself, was a way to control it: to speed or slow it. Unconsciously, this may be a way for me to control this whole thing rather than letting her make the decision and follow through on it. If I don't want it, why file? That is very odd for me to have thought...and it has to do with trying to deal with the pain by controlling the situation rather than actually grieving it.

Admitting my powerlessness to make things come out alright is probably the better course.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah I just talked to my sponsor. I am going to spend the evening talking to friends and family for the most part.
> 
> I think I might let the filing part go to her. This is her decision, she can do it. She needs to follow it through if she wants it, to feel the pain of going to the courthouse and such. If she foot drags too long, then maybe I'll need to do it, especially if I move and meet a somebody down the road or something. But the more I think about it, the more I think this is her responsibility. I should not have offered to do it, and taking that on myself, was a way to control it: to speed or slow it. Unconsciously, this may be a way for me to control this whole thing rather than letting her make the decision and follow through on it. If I don't want it, why file? That is very odd for me to have thought...and it has to do with trying to deal with the pain by controlling the situation rather than actually grieving it.
> 
> Admitting my powerlessness to make things come out alright is probably the better course.


As I told my wife, "I'm not ok filing and/or paying for a divorce I do not want"


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I was supposed to send a note to my W and our MC saying whether she could cat sit this week as normal. She wanted to and was upset when I said she could not. 

I am going to allow that. 

I also wrote that after some further thought, "I am not okay filing for a divorce I do not want." Not sure where that phrase come from .

That puts this all in her court. If she wants it, then she can go through the pain (and hassle) of going to the court house. I feel better with it that way. This is on her, so she has to take the responsibility for it. I'm not okay with foot dragging and dangling either, but I can deal with that later if it comes. At that point, I may want the divorce even.

Anyway...this, as somebody said in another thread, is a "quagmire of suck."


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah I was supposed to send a note to my W and our MC saying whether she could cat sit this week as normal. She wanted to and was upset when I said she could not.
> 
> I am going to allow that.
> 
> ...


Why are you going to let her cat sit?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well...my bright idea was to leave them alone for three days; look for an apartment while up there and move over the weekend next weekend.

I will still look for an apartment, but it is probably best not to leave them utterly alone. And she should get to say goodbye. I am not trying to punish her.

But she cannot have open-ended access to my place.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Well...my bright idea was to leave them alone for three days; look for an apartment while up there and move over the weekend next weekend.
> 
> I will still look for an apartment, but it is probably best not to leave them utterly alone. And she should get to say goodbye. I am not trying to punish her.
> 
> But she cannot have open-ended access to my place.


Send the cats where she is.

This is a good boundary to establish.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Nah. Her apartment building does not allow animals. Plus cats are territorial, unlike dogs, and a move like that is stressful to them. I'm good with her sitting them till I figure out my situation. 

I probably should not uproot right now...I have a potential job as an editor somewhere and if that comes through I would not want to have to move twice across the midwest.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Nah. Her apartment building does not allow animals. Plus cats are territorial, unlike dogs, and a move like that is stressful to them. I'm good with her sitting them till I figure out my situation.
> 
> I probably should not uproot right now...I have a potential job as an editor somewhere and if that comes through I would not want to have to move twice across the midwest.


Change your locks when you get back.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm so sorry Arendt. Big hugs. I'm crossing my fingers that a new job, new city, and some fantastic female coworkers are in your near future.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Im keeping the dreadlocks conrad


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You stuck it out a long time. Better to be moving on.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

spent tonight on the phone with friends mostly. i applied for a couple jobs and sent some inquiries as well. 

feel like crap. things going through my head: wish id never married her; yet wanting her to wake up and change her mind; concern about the future grrrr


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I only slept a few hours last night. Woke up and could not turn my mind off of all this. 

I got up and made sure to cancel a credit card that she still had with my name on it (there were recurring charges on it from a few things...but she had not been using it).

We built a website together that became kind of popular. I sent her all the login details for it. She can have it, though I would like to see the name change, which she will not do. Other people are involved with that. Not worth fighting about.

I'm planning to spend the day looking for work and applying places, as well as writing a little if I can. I should probably clean my apartment as well and look for things to sell off on Craigslist to downsize a little. 

I thought about going to the apartment office to have the locks changed when I return. Not sure I want to do that though. I will leave a note for her, along with her passport, SS card, and other documents that were in a safe here, and the torn up check she gave me to reimburse me for filing. The note would have an envelope for her to put the keys in and return them somewhere, telling her this is the last time she can cat sit. (I need somebody to do it though and don't want to pay...so I might let this slide till I figure out something. We don't see each other while she is here. I am in Milwaukee not where I live starting tomorrow).


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> spent tonight on the phone with friends mostly. i applied for a couple jobs and sent some inquiries as well.
> 
> feel like crap. things going through my head: wish id never married her; yet wanting her to wake up and change her mind; concern about the future grrrr


This is normal.

Remember DeMello, it passes.

And, change the damned locks.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah. I sent her a chasing email yesterday ( I know....lumber, lumber). 

No more of that. I did get up this morning with a new resolve to let her be. From now on, if I get any crazy ideas about how I can "fix" this thing, I will just post the stupidity here or call somebody to tell them what I'm thinking...so they can talk me down. Did that today. Thought of going to her pastor and talking to her, letting her know what is going on (my W has hidden her part in this from almost everybody). Talked to a good friend who attends there who said I should let it be...won't help anything. Good advice. Too easy to act on impulse right now. Glad I'm traveling 200 miles to Milwaukee in the morning. I need distance.

Some people are going to help me with moving expenses once I get things figured out job wise. That is helpful. 

I applied to a couple places today again. Can't seem to concentrate on writing though. Too unfocused. Need sleep but can't seem to get it.


----------



## AFPhoenix (Dec 24, 2013)

Arendt,

A book that helped me is: letting go: a 12-week personal action program to overcome a broken heart

I had my implosion day a few weeks ago. It has an aversion technique, while sounds cheesy, it did help.

I know how you feel. It's true....it does get better. Go with your plan to post here or call a Safe Friend when you get the urge to reach out. We are part of a brotherhood that no one wants to be in.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Looks like an out of print book. 

There are others in the same vein. Maybe I'll check into one of them from the library or something. Thanks.

One thing I respect about her right now: she got her codependent thing under control. She does not chase or bend in her boundaries. I am sure it hurts her like h3ll too, but she is pretty good about setting her limits and sticking to them now. That was not always the case.

I've heard that a book called "Boundaries" is really good too...my therapist said he give it out like candy. He said I might benefit from it, but did not push it (mostly because he doesn't push me to read much, knowing that I've had tendencies in the past to rely on books over people).


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah. I sent her a chasing email yesterday ( I know....lumber, lumber).


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


>


Oops it happens.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

still havent been able to sleep. I have to drive 200 miles at 3am. less than 5 hours from now. Not slept since Saturday night exxcept foa couple hours last night. Then I have to teach till 5pm tomorrow. This sucks.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> still havent been able to sleep. I have to drive 200 miles at 3am. less than 5 hours from now. Not slept since Saturday night exxcept foa couple hours last night. Then I have to teach till 5pm tomorrow. This sucks.


The lumber didn't knock you out?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm in Milwaukee, 200 miles from home. Teaching, researching, meeting with friends...this is good. I slept well last night. 

Got more leads for jobs in editing or teaching in universities...so I will be following up on those soon. 

Being here is good for me. My mind is clearer. That place I live is toxic to me...it sucks me in to her world, to the world I don't want to be in and have wanted to leave for a long time now (I hate northern Indiana...I have wanted to leave there ever since graduating from seminary). 

Teaching also helps...I have to focus on getting my lectures together, and then in class focus on keeping student attention and engaging their questions and comments. I stay with my doctoral adviser and his wife and at night we watch TV and talk together. That is good too. 

I have friends here, a whole environment that I am part of with friends and intellectual rigor. And then there is the city itself. It is small, but this is a good place. If I don't find something soon, I am moving here and will take any job for a while. My lease is up June 1, I'd like to not break it, but it might be good for me to go sooner and just eat the fee they will charge me.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Good to read your latest post. The drive sounded like pure hell.

Your thread has been moving. You really worked hard to reconcile. Neither you or your wife typical average Jack and Jill. It is hard to imagine your wife. She does not sound like she is the sort of person to whom it is easy to get close. That will not change for her next LTR. She will remain distant for him or them, too.

Was she ever capable of passion?

Clearly you are going feel better by creating distance and cutting off all contact.

Her cat sitting strikes me as a way of tormenting you. She comes to your apartment and gives them affection, they can rub against her and she can stroke them, but for you there is nothing. Her frigidity gave you zero animal comfort.

Good luck to the next guy who tries to live with her.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LongWalk said:


> Good to read your latest post. The drive sounded like pure hell.
> 
> Your thread has been moving. You really worked hard to reconcile. Neither you or your wife typical average Jack and Jill. It is hard to imagine your wife. She does not sound like she is the sort of person to whom it is easy to get close. That will not change for her next LTR. She will remain distant for him or them, too.
> 
> ...


The hell with him too.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She's actually very outgoing and friendly. An extrovert. Through our marriage she has been the one who has kept up with friends. She's usually the life of the room. Very creative, funny, and articulate.

However, in the past year or so, since she realized she had some issues with codependency, she has hardened herself up a bit, especially toward me, but also toward some other people. She's changed. Some of that is for the good. 

I think IC has been bad for her. She does not have a good counselor. She has been in counseling for a year and a half and has not dealt with her issues like self-harm and abuse as a child. Her counselor was our MC for a while and tried to push us to divorce three months into it or so. 

That MC also hid the EA from me once she became my wife's IC as well. She is from a school of thought that sees personality types as the big thing, which I think is stupid and stifling. Anyway...I think my W's IC has done a lot of harm to her though she has helped her with the codependency stuff. 

I feel very fortunate to have had a great IC who pushed me to work on real issues, the ones most pressing and troubling for me and did not let me off the hook. That plus those AA people...12 Step work again has really been helpful.

I went to a lecture tonight at my university, which was very good. A man talked about forgiveness, how he forgave his son's killer and started a foundation. Lot of my students were at the talk, which was good to see. It got me thinking about some things in my life where I need to let go as well. Particularly with the OM from her EA. Keeps me in the victim chair to hold onto this.

Then I went to a vegan place and ate. I like the people who come through there. A pretty young lady kept looking at me and smiling. Felt nice. Not ready to act on anything like that, but it was flattering.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Being a vegan and all, she could be interested in your cucumber.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Vegans are often angry people but there are some cute ones.

Ardendt, sorry that your W fell under the influence of this IC. Probably some IC look at breaking imperfect relationships as success.

No friendship and no contact are best now. If she misses you, she'll write a real letter of regret or appear at your door.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well, sometimes when a person realizes that their actions have been harmful and they change ways they become overly zealous in trying to convert other people to their ways. That is not jsut a problem with vegans. It is a problem in religions of all stripes, for politics of every single stripe, from Marxists to Tea Partiers, who cannot tolerate other people.

So yeah, sometimes people who are vegans can be upset and annoying. That is usually due to their inexperience and guilt issues. Inexperience in that they do not realize that pushing an agenda too hard pushes people away and does the opposite of what they would like to see happen (and what we want is a good thing: for people to be compassionate to our nonhuman animal kin). And guilty and shame-based in the sense that they are trying to make up for things and their sense of justice has no sense of humility anymore and is not rooted in a compassion for others that sees that they were once in that same place.

On the issue of no contact. That is my intent. It was what I wanted and called for in the MC. I return home later tonight and am not looking forward to going back there.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

GOt home last night. This morning I started listing things I will not need when I move and posted somethings on Craigslist for sale. It is a good time to downsize my belongings and get rid of things I no longer need or use. Preparation for moving...


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You are travelling lean.

I agree with your vegan explanation. People want to deprive or discipline themselves to deal with pain, guilty, etc. They can go towards causes to fill a void within. Having said that we sure can eat less meat.

Are you going to take your cats?

Did you ex leave any note on the kitchen table?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

No she didn't leave any notes. 

Yes my cats go with me wherever I go. I adopted them from a shelter and consider them like family. They are great to have around. No burden to me. 

I could live some places for free if I did not have cats, but I'd rather keep my commitment to them. 

Its funny, my one cat goes and sits in front of my front door when I leave for a few days to teach. She knows when I am leaving. 

I painted a portrait of her: I titled it "Cat: Man Do!"


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I love it!

I'm sick today, and my dog has laid beside my bed all day. If only humans loved us like animals did!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah my cats sleep with me too. For such small creatures, they sure take up a lot of space on a queen size bed.

Found out that I did not get the editor job I was hoping for. But hopefully something else arises. Searching for a job always requires some thick skin, because a person gets told no more than yes. This is not really a time in my life when I want to hear too much rejection...but whatever.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Sold my chairs today and tomorrow some folks are coming to get some other things I am selling. My living room is much sparser. 

I have a library worth well over $15,000. Easily over a thousand books. I sold one bookshelf. I'd like to sell off a few books, but those take time to sell (and to list).

So I am going to slowly do this over the next month or so until I have all my possessions to the place I want them to be at before moving. Hopefully that will keep me moving on finding work and an apartment elsewhere.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What sort of books?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Sold a few more things today in my effort to pair down my belongings.

Lots of anxiety currently. My stomach is in knots. My body feels tense. My mood is definitely down. My thoughts, when they turn to this stuff, and it is hard not to even though I am trying to work, are about how stupid and senseless this whole thing is. Talking with a friend this morning he told me that from the outside my wife and I look completely compatible and there is nothing obvious that ever said to him, even now, that we are incompatible and there will be trouble. He said it looks like a lot of little things and all of it can be fixed, but she does not want to do the work. He's my friend, but I met him at her church, where he still goes. His wife is good friends with her. He's divorced himself so he understands the struggle which is good.

But this is likely to be a rough night.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Arendt,

When you were in limbo you had hope, but she dashed it after all these months of patient waiting for a chance. Your wife is a quite social person, so she is not shy. If she wished to R she would have expressed the desire.

There is nothing to be done now but end all contact to put an end to the pain.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Not in contact. That is what is heightening the anxiety right now more than likely.

Tried to write tonight...but could not concentrate. Now I am transitioning to painting. I have an idea for a tree burning as somebody watches...sometimes I can paint better when I am in this state of things...and painting helps alleviate it like a drug. Tonight I plan to overdose if need be.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Another tough day anxiety wise. I did talk to my W. today to discuss her cat sitting. She had thought this past week would be her last, so she planned for that, took videos and photos and stuff. But I said I want her to continue to cat sit since I don't want to leave them alone, am not moving right now, and a stranger would just stress them in already stressful situation (me gone plus now changes in the apartment due to selling stuff...cat's get weird about that sort of thing). So she is going to continue, at least this coming week.

We did not discuss anything else. She is dead set on divorce. Her tone was fairly hard and cool. Nothing new there. 

Other than that, sold a bookshelf on Craigslist, cleaned up the place a little, did a little more painting, and am now looking for jobs on the internet. I'm even open to headed back east. Lived in NYC for a long time, W. grew up there. and have long term friends outside the city. would be great to go where I know people already. Looking high and low right now. Well, above the Mason-Dixon Line at least.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Got a very angry and bitter email from my W tonight. Geez. She is looking for excuses to put things on me: all my fault. She is jockeying for the victim chair like crazy. 

Ughh..this is over. Utterly over. 

Her email is just sad. I could ge angry about it, but what is the point. It is just a sad thing that she cannot let go of stuff and has to put all the blame on me right now. It just seals it up for me.

The one thing that does bother me though...this EA she had. It bothers me to think that this person and her could end up together down the road. They work at the same pplace and she lllives a few doors down. He is a few years younger than I am, but is similar in politics, religion, career, education, viewpoints, etcc.

Part of me wants to take my old phone records to his job and see if I cannot kick up a storm. But I doubt that would help me at all. I doubt it would make me feel better in the long run. But the temptation is still there. To punish and hurt. Probably more as a way to deal with my pain. But I know it won't work...my pain will remain regardless.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

This email, not nice. She wants a divorce, so the past is now irrelevant.

Do not answer or acknowledge at all. She could have brought this up in therapy.

No contact.

If she works with him and has continued the EA all this time, what chance did your ginger separation and dating have? A poor one. Her choice.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

No it has not been ongoing. Just a fear of mine that once she is divorced, that will light back up. But if it does, it doesn't matter. Not my concern. 

Yeah I am going no contact except about divorce. She is going to sit my cats for now. I'm hoping to find out a few things for jobs in the next week or two...as soon as I get an offer, I am out of here. 

Some new neighbors moved in yesterday...good time to move. Aryan gang members and I don't want to be around those people in any way. They should live off on their own in the desert or something. I'm actually going to go complain to our apartment office today about those people.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> No it has not been ongoing. Just a fear of mine that once she is divorced, that will light back up. But if it does, it doesn't matter. Not my concern.
> 
> Yeah I am going no contact except about divorce. She is going to sit my cats for now. I'm hoping to find out a few things for jobs in the next week or two...as soon as I get an offer, I am out of here.
> 
> Some new neighbors moved in yesterday...good time to move. Aryan gang members and I don't want to be around those people in any way. They should live off on their own in the desert or something. I'm actually going to go complain to our apartment office today about those people.


I'd expose it to his workplace.

But, that's just me.

Sometimes, a man needs to stand up and be counted.

This is one of those times.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'd expose it to his workplace.
> 
> But, that's just me.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:
Do it!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah but there is no way for me to do it without it being about my own sense of revenge, which is not helpful. I f I could do it and see it as a greater good, that this professor at a Christian school has abused his power and I knew that they would get rid of him, I would.

But as it stands, that school is unlikely to get rid of him. The only person it will hurt is my W. They will make her the scapegoat for this and I am not interested in hurting her. That EA was her decision, but I created circumstances and was not meeting her needs either. She may be divorcing me, but I just cannot see how trying to harm her would help me get over this.

Not only that, but it won't fix my marriage. The marriage is done regardless. So in the end, I see no positive side, even though I struggle with it a bit at times. The times when I struggle with it are when I am feeling most hurt. It is really just a thought to try to make myself feel better, but I know that won't work either. 

So no positive side to doing it at all from my end. If he is creating havoc, that will catch up to him without my having to step in and harm myself and others in the process.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I did report the racists to my apartment office. They were unaware of them. I suspect they had the female sign the lease and she moved them in. No way they got past a background check, not with the jailhouse tattoos I saw. 

I'm not looking for trouble, but a racist organized gang moving next door: hell no.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> But as it stands, that school is unlikely to get rid of him. The only person it will hurt is my W. They will make her the scapegoat for this and I am not interested in hurting her. That EA was her decision, but I created circumstances and was not meeting her needs either. She may be divorcing me, but I just cannot see how trying to harm her would help me get over this.


It's been clear for awhile that one of the main reasons she doesn't wish to try with you is a lack of respect.

You've been available and waiting as Plan B pretty much the whole time.

That doesn't mean you haven't done some great work on yourself.

But, in the face-off with her, you've been a bit too easy. Some women find it difficult to gain (or re-gain) attraction to men that have lost their edge.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah maybe so Conrad. I can see that. But it won't help anything now. I cannot see it being helpful to me to go report this. Maybe I should get advice from people closer to the situation who know me, who work there. I have told some of my old profs there and asked them to keep it down for now, since I was trying to work on the marriage. Trouble is, those old prof's are all now retiring at the end of the year. A power shift is happening...But maybe I should get their advice. What do you think?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> Yeah maybe so Conrad. I can see that. But it won't help anything now. I cannot see it being helpful to me to go report this. Maybe I should get advice from people closer to the situation who know me, who work there. I have told some of my old profs there and asked them to keep it down for now, since I was trying to work on the marriage. Trouble is, those old prof's are all now retiring at the end of the year. A power shift is happening...But maybe I should get their advice. What do you think?


Do whatever is necessary for your head to rest easy on your pillow.

This is about you now.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I'll ask for some opinions and make a decision from that. People older and wiser than I am should counsel me here.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

An emotional affair is nothing. It cannot be measured, unless you have emails that reveal their relationship was inappropriate.

As you noted, you marriage is done, so exposure would only be for revenge.

Arendt, you are not a typical chap. Doctorate in theology. Artist. Well read. Your wife fell in love with you because you have style and personality. However, she may have discovered that you were vulnerable and co-dependent. This ate away at your mystique. Your desire to save your marriage further eroded her regard.

I know that you did not like me saying that the lack of sex during separation was not important to you. You denied its importance because she was not going to have sex with you and you had to accept this. While it is possible she was celibate then entire time you were separated, it is entirely possible that she has slept the professor or other men. Even if all she did was commune with a Hitachi magic wand, she was not fantasizing about you.

Your wife is an intellectual. What happens to your career will matter to her. If you go off and succeed in academia, don't be surprized if she wants to be your friend.

She cares about you but not so very much. She feels little for you.

I would not let her take care of cats. As long as she is in your apartment leaving her scent there, she is torturing you. She is a heartless fiend in this context. Tell her that the cats have been moved to the town you are headed towards. Find another sitter. Do not let her stroke your feline company. Do not let her say goodbye. Do not answer her emails or phone calls.

I would not lift a finger to do the divorce. Let her do all the work to file. Let her pay the expense. Ignore her. 

If she writes you a passionate letter saying maybe she would like to try again, reply that you will come over if she invites you to a naked party. "Maybe" is no good anymore.

If she is waiting by your door to talk, smile at her and let her talk. You gain nothing by being available.

Paint a portrait of her from a photo. It will be ugly and it will help you to detach.

We are rooting for you.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah...well I read the book about love languages and mine was physical touch. So her denying was significant to me and she knew it. She denied sex for almost a year before she moved out.

My career will matter to her. I will likely be pretty successful. The more the better. Just got a royalty check from a couple books today! I'm headed to Comicon in Chicago and have a tattoo appointment booked. Using this extra money for that (a little irresponsible, but I expect to get a more permanent job by that time). Tattoos over the past year have been helpful. A phoenix last year on Good Friday, and some others that I wanted. 

Sometime, once the divorce is through I will probably get the Koi turning into a dragon...a typical tattoo about a life change.

Anyway...thanks.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

One good thing: the Nazi's are not moving in they are moving somebody out. What a relief. Did not want to live near those turds. for even a day.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I am not into tattoos on my own body, but some people have nice ones. Really great ones are the minority. I know a girl with a map of the world on her calf. Looks like a huge ugly birthmark.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt said:


> One good thing: the Nazi's are not moving in they are moving somebody out. What a relief. Did not want to live near those turds. for even a day.


To quote Indiana Jones, "Nazis, I hate those guys"


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

In Milwaukee at a cafe (they have some good ones here). Last night was terrible. Lots of anxiety and such before I crashed for the night. Most of it due to thinking about my own actions, seeing where I did things wrong, where I treated her badly. 

But in the end, i could have treated her like a queen...she would not have made a different decision. This is not about me. It is about her.

Amazing, though how just being back up here helps my mood and thought patterns. Distance is not a cure-all, but it does help me at least. 

Im showing a movie in class today, so I am not doing my usual routine which is to write my lectures at a cafe when I arrive. So now I am kind of piddling around a bit and will do some other work till classes later this afternoon. Job hunt! Still...good to be here and away from there.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Getting rid of your apartment and moving will solve many problems. You need to resolutely cut off all contact. Let her do all the divorce work. If she sends you stuff to sign, just review the settlement. If it is fair and what you agreed to, be done with it.

Arendt,

Oneitis is partly a reflection of our own commitment to self that is misdirected towards other. I am not religious but I embrace the mystery of our relationship with the universe without a god. Or perhaps everything is divine. The merging of individuals to love and procreate is a sublime moment that can be repeated for a lifetime for some but not all. We must have the grace to accept this.


----------



## MythOfFingerprints (Apr 1, 2014)

Arendt said:


> Got a very angry and bitter email from my W tonight. Geez. She is looking for excuses to put things on me: all my fault. She is jockeying for the victim chair like crazy.
> 
> Ughh..this is over. Utterly over.
> 
> ...


I can identify with the being blamed for everything part.

You sound like a great guy. If she doesn't appreciate you, I'm sure there are tons of women out there that will when you feel ready.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Had a good day. Did some research, taught my courses and spent the evening with my doctoral adviser and his wife whom I stay with.

tomorrow I am headed to a art museum with a friend and to see a movie tomorrow evening with another (both doctoral students in my program). I'll also do some research in between the museum and movie.

I definitely think about my W. here, but the pain and hurt are lessened by my work and other activities, and just being in the city. I do miss the calls and check-ins. We used to talk while I am up here. But I'll get past that.

Main thing is remembering that I have no control over it so I have to accept it as is. I should probably sit down sometime and consider what the benefits for me now are that I am free to move and go where I please. 

I also need to sit down and make some new 4th step lists...new resentments, fears, and all that to get out in the open and face so that I can move on. I don't want to carry things with me in my head and habits going forward.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Immerse yourself in your work.

The rest will take care of itself.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well I have to be a bit careful on that front. I have had workaholic habits int he past. I would wake up and start reading, and fall asleep with a book in my hand. So I have learned boundaries over the past year: I work only for so long each day, and then I stop, no matter what. Work is no longer my life. I used to say my work is my fun, which really jsut meant I worked all the time. Now I see the difference. 

But I have lots of things I need to do: finish writing my dissertation, applying for jobs, some commissioned art projects to finish this weekend, going through my things to see what else I can pare down, finish an article I promised to write, and some 12 step work more intentionally. So I can spread my time out and it not be all about work (work for me is academics, reading and writing). I've also let my gym activities fall off these past 6 weeks. Not good.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Went to the art museum today. That was cool. Researching now.

I rarely remember dreams if I even have them when I sleep. Woke up this morning in the middle of one in which W. was in it. She had told me she wanted to reconcile and we were having fun doing something or other. Just a dream. Just a figment of my imagination. But I'd have preferred not to have woken up with it in my head.

Planning to see a movie this evening and until then to read and write. I am actually on a roll today writing. Very productive.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Damn...the movie Noah is awesome! Well done.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

BAck home today. I finished a chapter for my dissertation and turned the chapter in, which is a big accomplishment. 75 pages for one. Will take a couple days break till I get feedback. Till then I will concentrate on painting and applying for work.

I sent to see my IC today. I made one last appointment with him for the end of them month, before I move. Then I think I might be done with IC. I am handling this all pretty well. Not chasing, not trying to hurt somebody, not trying to fix things, not running away, not unaware of why I have anxiety sometimes (wanting control), not drinking it off, not laying around depressed or doing anything unhealthy. I am just continuing to do what I have been doing: good things.

My counselor affirmed for me that he does not think my STBXW ever gave the marriage a chance during this separation time. That is the first time he has said that to me. I said I had read back through my journal over the year and she had been saying she only wanted to be friends, that she didn't want to be married, or that she wasn't sure for all that time. He said that over the past months he has not noticed from what I have said that she really had her heart in it. 

This divorce is not about things I did wrong here. I have some minor regrets from the past year, but even if I'd have been perfectly well behaved and a 100% gentleman all the time, that would not have mattered. This is not about me. 

There is some comfort in knowing that. I'm starting to tell people that I will only be in this area till the end of the month or at best till June 1. So that is another way I am preparing to leave.

My IC asked if I am mentally ready to get the papers from my STBXW. Not sure. I think so. But we shall see when they come. I wonder if she will actually file at the end of the month when she gets paid. Something tells me that she may hold off and drag her feet. I am moving regardless. And when I move, I will consider myself available. We've been apart a year. I am not ready for some kind of relationship, obviously, but I can certainly go out on casual dates or something at that point.

Might have a job in Chicago...keeping my fingers crossed on it. My best outlook at this point.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sounds good. She never gave it a chance. That seems indisputable.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

It really seems to me like you have been working hard on making yourself a better person for the next phase of your life. That is the best thing you can focus on right now. 

Sending good thoughts your way!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Cleaned my apartment up and went to a church service this morning. Feeling pretty good today. Somebody is supposed to come by later today or at the latest tomorrow to buy one of my paintings. So I want my apartment to be in top shape. 

I don't have any anxiety so far today, which has not really been the norm. I usually have little bouts of anxiety here and there during the day. There are two reasons: grief over the loss of my marriage and also uncertainty about the future, immediately in needing employment, and also where I am going to be moving in the next couple months. I think this issue of not being settled somewhere is actually more of a problem than the grief over the marriage loss. 

I applied for another job last night that seems like a good fit, and I have a good chance at this one, so that is part of why I am fairly upbeat so far today. 

I'll do some painting, maybe a little reading, look for some more jobs to apply for perhaps a little later in the day, call some friends, workout a bit at home, and maybe a little writing. I made a goal list yesterday with a plan of action for each thing...all immediate goals, not long term goals. That kind of stuff keeps me focused right now.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Arendt said:


> ...all immediate goals, not long term goals. That kind of stuff keeps me focused right now.


I couldn't agree more. Here's to a good day.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I haven't yet received divorce papers, but I expect they will come toward the end of the month once my STBXW gets paid. She has not made any indication that she has a change of heart. We don't really have any contact except for very brief texts about me getting home from traveling ("home" - "thanks.") to be sure that she doesn't need to care for the cats cause I got in an accident or something. Other than that, nothing.

Traveling was tough this week as Tuesday brought more snow and some pile-ups on the interstate from morons who think they should drive too fast in slick conditions. As I was contemplating my own demise, or potential, I realized that if I were to get hurt on the road, my STBXW would not have came to help me. She would have helped the cats, but not me. This would have been the case for the entire 15 months we have been separated now, and even some before that. She would not move back to take care of me if I had been severely hurt, or even came around to help me recover if it had been less severe.

I have some anxiety still occasionally. But that has to do with finding employment for the next year and a half, or at least for the summer. I am at the top of the list for a press, but won't hear back for a couple weeks. And there is another potential thing teaching for next school year at a university, but that too will not be firmed up for a while. The waiting is driving me nuts. I'd like to move away from where I live but I definitely don't want to move twice.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Arendt said:


> As I was contemplating my own demise, or potential, I realized that if I were to get hurt on the road, my STBXW would not have came to help me. She would have helped the cats, but not me. This would have been the case for the entire 15 months we have been separated now, and even some before that. She would not move back to take care of me if I had been severely hurt, or even came around to help me recover if it had been less severe.


This is a big deal to me too. Even married, I know I can't count on my H to be there for me. So many times, even at the beginning of our relationship, that he wasn't there, there's just no excuse for me to only be figuring this out now. But we're only getting older, and one of the reasons I want someone to grow old with is to have someone who wants to be there for me. Seeing our spouses for what they are here is important.

Good luck with the job hunt!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Sorry to hear that NL. For me it has not been the case that my W has not been there for me during our marriage. Quite the opposite. That only changed in the past couple years. Once I delved too much into work, became socially isolated, and also shut down a bit toward her, she utterly shut down and has been unable to come back. 

I heard you about growing old with somebody. Who gets married thinking they will divorce in a few years time rather than see the other person through to the end? Maybe some people do that, but we didn't. 

On the other hand, there will come a time when my STBXW will be but a distant memory...of a life I once lived with a person I once knew. Nothing more. No longing for her presence. No hoping for reconciliation. No ill will either; just a distant faded memory. 

when I was 19 I fell in love with some girl who ended up breaking my heart. 20 years on, I never think about her anymore. I also have no desire whatsoever to reconnect with her or to even try. If I were to see her I would say hi, and hope that she is well. But that would be all. I would move on without a second thought. Someday, I am sure, that will be how I think about and relate to my current W. That is sad in some ways, but if she wants a divorce, that is what will end up becoming of the relationship we once had. Just something we once did with a person we once knew, but it ended badly and we moved on to other things.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

You know, NL, another thought about the caring thing....for my part I don't see my STBXW as not caring. She would not be there if I got sick, but that has more to do with her own self-protection than anything. If she could not see me as a caring stable husband, then risking caring for me, given her codependency, would set her up to get hurt. SO I understand, I think, her reluctance. It is not about me. It would be about her. That helps me deal with the thought and how she did not help me out in the past 8 months whenever I did get pretty ill. On the other hand, it was a missed opportunity on her part to be vulnerable and show me she loved me, which would have been a risk if I abused it, but it could also have opened up new doors. Sometimes learning things about ourselves, like that we are codependent or whatever, can make us swing too far in another direction. That is the case with my wife. 

Now that I see it and know it, the only thing I can do is make sure to have people in my life who could help me in very dire times, but making sure not to use their kindness and friendship in any one-directional way. I have to be available as well.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Missed my annual easter vigil tonight because I am tired and worn out from having anxiety and stuff today. Lots of thoughts about my STBXW. Some days are hard; some days are easy. I have less hard days and more easy ones, but just when I think I am ready, it hits me like a ton of bricks and I cannot focus and my energy drains. 

I read back over my journal tonight, looking at what I had written since I started one in March 2013. I see a consistent message in it from her: "I think I want out, but I am scared to do it." Over and over she told me in words or actions that she only wanted to be friends, didn't want to be married, didn't love me anymore, etc. Over and over. Yet I stayed here...took financial, physical, and social risks to try to work it out anyhow. I could not believe her. Could not let her go.

I guess I am learning to let go now. How to let go without covering up the hurt of that with other things: hurting myself by shutting down; hurting others by saying things or whatever; drinking, using other women, whatever. I'm doing really well on that score. Staying in touch with the hurt, not running from it, but trying to move on through it. This is tough sometimes. 

Finishing my dissertation is a way to move on and I have been working night and day for the pat few weeks to finish. That will be a significant step for me in life. I'll no longer be a student. My job prospects will significantly increase. SO I have been very focused on that, as a way to kind of move on. But today was tough; just couldn't focus as much. Hoping tomorrow is better for sure. Probably will be. Maybe I will go out of town.

Comic Con Chicago is coming up. Can't wait for that!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Im in Barnes and Nobles reading a book called "Uncoupling: Turning Points in Intimate Relationships" that describes how people end relationships in typical fashions. My marriage is in here...anybody else read this?

I was looking at divorce books, hoping for tips on how to end things well but also with the least pain possible...or how to start to detach intentionally...I don't know really. Just advice.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

"More often, however, post-separation changes reflect still another ironic twist in uncoupling. They happen too late. Initiators may be unaware of changes in their partners. Or, if aware, initiators may have found their new social niche comfortable and confirming. So while they may note (and, in some cases, take pride in) the partner's accomplishments, they do not seek reconciliation. On the other hand, if the initiator does wish to get back together, it may be too late. The partner may have uncoupled. Often what makes the partner once again attractive to the initiator is that the partner has gone on. In creating a new life, the partner acquires the basic means of salvation. If reconciliation is what the partner desire, achieving it lies not in seeking it, but, perversely, in turning away. By giving up the past and building a future, the partner begins to create a different identity. In the process, the partner regains the sense of self that has been lost. Being once again "self-possessed," the partner acts out of strength, not weakness." - Diane Vaughan, _Uncoupling_, p.187

Vaughan goes on to talk about how the spouse left behind will have to reevaluate the marriage and find a way to talk about it that sees it in a new light to be able to move on. The person will have to let go of telling the story in ways that focus only on self-blame or that accentuate only the positive aspects of the relationship. Moving on, from her research, requires that a person see the relationship in a new light as not only over, but that it has been destructive and that he or she needs to move on. The story we tell ourselves is important. The person doesn't need to trash their former spouse or anything, but they do have to see the person in a different light than before.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Sounds like that's a good book to buy.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I didn't buy it but I read large portions of it. She did extensive research on ending relationships. She saw various patterns that people tend toward while ending a marriage. The person who walks away (the initiator) and the person left behind (the partner) have different ways of coping. She talks about how the partner usually tries to save the marriage, but it rarely works. The marriage was in trouble long before the initiator walked out or declared their intention to leave. She details how people usually signal indirectly and directly that there are troubles, why we do and do not see these signals, what happens when we finally see them and there has been a declaration, how the two spouses cope. The initiator will sometimes end up in counseling and in a new network of friends. The counselor will give the person professional assistance to renarrate the marriage in mostly negative terms making reconciliation harder. The counselor becomes a trusted confidant outside the marriage, who is unable to see both sides due to the fact that the other person is absent. The initiator's friends will also reaffirm this new identity till the life he or she has began becomes comfortable and moving back is a threat to the new security and balance.

Meanwhile, the person left behind is in a worse position. We usually try to fix things by focusing on ourselves and self-improvement. But as the quote says, it is usually too late. Reconciliation is a matter of a complicated network of things, including timing. She sees it as a rare thing once marriages get to the point mine did. 

It was interesting to see the stories and interpretations and how easily my own marriage and my own reactions fell into these ways. Her thoughts on moving on are about how we have to renarrate the relationship and stop focusing solely on its positive aspects and therefore longing for its return. We have to see its destructiveness, and start building a new identity as single people. It was interesting.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Wow...it sounds like I will have to look at that book, too. Sounds very interesting. 

I hope you continue on the path of having more good days than bad. And keep giving yourself credit for the good things you are doing to cope. Recognizing how great it is for you to be handling things in a positive way is a big deal. That's worthy of a little self love, for certain.

You sound like you are really processing some important things well. To have a moment like you did in the car and be able to think through all of those aspects...that's so important. 

I hope things come together for you soon on the job front. It seems like you have some very exciting prospects ahead of you. That's really great!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Time flies. I just finished my last week teaching. So I am not longer commuting which is a big relief to me. I had a lot of fun teaching, but the winter was a tough one.

I have an interview this week for a job, and a really good lead for a university teaching position on the east coast, which I will take even if I get something else in the meantime.

My goal was to move by June 1st, but it if the east coast thing comes through I would look more at July.

I have not received divorce papers from her yet. She cat sit for me all this time, but that is now over. We have had no contact really. I saw her a couple weeks back and went up to her and talked with her. I was cheerful and friendly. No hint of any pain from me. She looked like hell. Like she hasn't been sleeping. I think she was taken aback that I would come up to her and that I would be so decent about things.

I saw her last Friday as well, and I kept on walking...she didn't see me or acted like she didn't so I didn't think it worth the time. 

I have done a lot of reevaluating of things since Easter when I read that book at B&N. Do I really want to be with somebody that I would have to wonder if she would walk away again if things got tough? Do I want to have to worry if she is into some other guy and maybe even pursuing him? No on both accounts. And that is how things will be with her if we got back together. Moreover, do I really want to deal with another year of cold-shoulders and no-sex from the person who I am married to while she gets her own stuff together? No. I'm tired of it. 

I was not the best I could be and I regret that I did not see my own issues. But I worked at things. I handled all this pretty well. Better than some men I know going through this same thing (one of my friends is a total mess over his divorce...drinking, isolated...ughh). I'm better at the other end now than I was before.

Hell, I am even starting to look at other women, though I won't yet follow through in asking anybody out. There is a play in town right now that I love, I almost asked somebody to go with me, a female who would be pretty cool to hang with for a bit. But I decided it is not worth it. I am moving soon. I don't want to use anybody. And I am not divorced yet, so I think I can wait till I move away and get a fresh start.

I keep waiting for the divorce papers though. I knew she would drag this out. I have a feeling I am going to have to file the paperwork myself at some point. I am mentally ready to get them, at least I think I am (who knows till I actually see them). I Am not going to file though...not yet. Once I am moved away and starting my own thing, then I will need to do it if she doesn't. Maybe she was waiting for the cat-sitting to be over. I have no idea. We just don't talk and I am fine with that.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So my STBXW left her sunglasses at my apartment and asked me to drop them off at her workplace, which I did today. She was talking to somebody in her office, so I handed them to the person, who was blocking the door, and then just walked on and went to the library there to do what I wanted.

Now there is no reason to be in contact any further in my view. She is no longer cat-sitting for me, and she has nothing here.

Only reason I could foresee needing contact now is if she does not file divorce papers once I move away...but even then...I can file without contacting her at all if she drags it out.

Strangely, I'm not sad or happy or anything about this. I'm focused on my work, planning and looking ahead, rather than anything else. I no longer have days or even short times where I am mired in thoughts about the end of my marriage. I've pretty much accepted it and with that I am able to focus on other things and kind of move on. 

But who knows...I know enough to know that these things ebb and flow. But for weeks now I have not been unhappy about things. I am thinking about her and about our marriage less and less each day. She and divorce are not the first thing on my mind when I wake up, nor the last when I go to sleep. I might spend 10-15% of my awake time thinking about it or with it in the back of my mind. And much of that is me re-examining things in a new light, one where I clearly see my own issues, but can also notice that this was doomed the minute she walked out the door 15 months ago. 

So yeah...it gets easier...but I keep waiting for that step backward that always seems to come, but hasn't yet, even when I happen to see her or something.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

That must be a very surreal place to be. When I think about being happy, or simply not being sad, it seems so far off. But you are there! Good for you. You may be right about the step backward, and it's good to be prepared for it, just in case. Who knows, though? Either way, you are definitely on the path to your new life. 

I love that you are taking such good care of yourself and thinking through the things you are feeling. You inspire me to do the same!


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

*... this was doomed the minute she walked out the door 15 months ago.*

It is amazing that you had to go through this process for so long. In part, it was always going to take time. In part, you refused to face the reality. In part she led you on, giving false hopes.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well I do not regret the time it has taken for the most part. I look back and can honestly say I did what I could do; I gave it my best. I also worked through a lot of issues that I no longer have dragging me down. The 12 Step work this past year has been absolutely liberating. I suppose I could have done that while getting a divorce, but all the same, not going through it forced me to look at ways I seek to control situations sometimes (often subtly, without knowing it), so I can be more at peace with life as it comes. Everyday, before I leave my apartment, I kneel and say the serenity prayer, which definitely helps me accept what I cannot change.

So I am okay with it. The only thing I regret is that I did not apply for some jobs that I almost certainly had a good shot at because they would have meant moving far away (like L.A., Seattle, New York, etc.). Some of my friends in my PhD department got those jobs, and I have a better record than they and could have landed something by now if I had not held myself back for yet another year.

But that is okay. The next year could be tough because of that mistake, but I am sure I will make it through.

I am not sure if she led me on or not...I think she was likely conflicted and maybe even still is which could be why she has not filed yet. But I am not waiting any longer. I am definitely moving away from here and when I do, that has to be the end of this thing. 

I don't see myself as single for the rest of my life. I don't need a woman for my identity, to feel secure, to not feel lonely, or just to feel good about myself. That is good. But I still don't see myself as staying single till the end of my days. But that won't happen if I am forever a "separated" person. What woman wants to be with a guy who is still married? What a threat that is and a shadow. I'm not rushing out to find somebody, by no means. But I will be open to that and I have done a lot of self-work to prepare for it. Next lady gets a new and improved me. My STBXW loses out unfortunately. 

So I don't want this divorce to drag out like the separation. Once I move, I am getting a divorce whether she has filed or not. Even if she is conflicted, she is not coming back. That much is clear. She will never return, and I just can't let it drag out too much longer. I won't cause her pain about anything, she has enough struggle on her own. 

I have been toying with the idea of contacting her to see when the papers are coming. But I'd like to have a firm idea of when and where I am going before I do that so I know my own needs about things.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I have an interview next week for a job away from here...I'm a good candidate, a bit overqualified which will be my only downfall on this one as an editor.

But there is another job on the east coast that will start reviewing apps on the 16th. I want that one bad. Even if I got and took another job, I would back out and move for this job teaching at a university.

Moving away will be a significant step for me...I need to get out of here. I drove to my gym today which takes me by my STBXW's apartment building. She was in the back alley where people load and unload things. When I drove back after working out, there was a cargo van there. I have no idea if that was for her, what was happening or anything. But I did not need to see that. It just makes me speculate (this time whether she is moving out or something...she likes her place so it is doubtful). 

Distance...that will be nice.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Second interview for a job coming up on Monday. The job is mine to lose it seems at this point. I've already started packing and looking for apartments (though I have not yet begun to look in person because I need the job offer and salary, which will determine how much I will pay for rent). Packing is good. 

Spending most of my time preparing for this interview at present.

Today I went through some of my back emails and saw emails from the Fall of 2012 when my STBXW and I were in counseling. I have been pretty hard on myself through all of this, looking at myself through a microscope to see where I have been at fault. 

But looking at some of those emails, I really did try even then. I was sending my W. emails to try to understand why I was taking all the initiative and she was spending so much time with other people, and trying my hardest to spend time with her, while she was trying not to spend time with me even then. Her email responses were not much different than what she says today, and that was 20 months ago before our separation. 

I didn't set out to look at those emails, but I was cleaning up my inbox and saw them. I was curious. Just confirmed what I know...she checked out a long time ago and no matter what I did, no matter how many changes I made, no matter if I were a perfect gentleman or not, at some point, she lost the ability and will to stick with this marriage. She knew where to go when she left...she had already thought things through by the time she left.

anyhow...I don't dwell on this stuff much anymore. I spend less and less time thinking about it actually. The marriage is dead and over except according to the law. Once I get a job offer, I plan to contact her and ask for an update on the divorce papers which have yet to be filed (I don't want to file in a new state which will take even longer to do because of residency requirements and the new state has a stipulation of a 2 year separation before a no-fault can be filed...that is a long time to be separated, though we are nearing 1 1/2 years now).


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

She is selfish. Staying married is okay with her as long as it doesn't inconvenience her.

During that 20 months I'll bet she had emotional affairs at the very least.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Well...I am not sure how selfish she is as I do my best not to take her moral inventory and such. I can say that while I was trying to connect all those months and she was pulling away, I also did not recognize some big issues with myself which helped push her away: while I was trying to spend more time with her I was simultaneously isolated from most other people and did not want to or much like hanging out with the people she wanted us to be around as I saw them in some sense as "competition" for her interests. They were that and I had every right to feel that way and to see that she was using others to escape our marriage. But at the same time, I had become quite isolated and even mean toward other people at times...very concerned with my prestige and status and who treats me this way or that. She may also have experienced my not wanting to be around people she was making friends with and trying to get her to spend alone time with me as attempts to control her. Very legitimate concerns on her part.

So I would not put this all on her and did not mean to. At the same time, looking back over the emails I can say that even then it was not like I was deliberately pushing her away or anything. I did the best I could in those early months of counseling with what I then thought...and only later realized more about myself. The real kicker is that even after I realized these things she still kept me at arms length. Perhaps she had been pushed too far somehow in her own mind. We all have limits and hers was just a low threshhold. 

Anyway...sort of rambling here...trying to think about it without pronouncing blame and bad character to her or me. It is what it is. She, even now, is doing what she thinks is best for her. Whether it is that remains to be seen. I doubt it, but life has a funny way of proving me wrong.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Fingers crossed for the job for you! A new start in a new city will be wonderful.

It's great that you can see your growth in the old emails. Even if you guys were already past the point of no return by then, at least you've grown and benefited from this process. I hope one day you can look back on all of this and not feel sad, just good about where it all took you.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Arendt

Losses and gains

It seems like life is full of losses and gains. From what I have read from your thread you have lost your wife and are recovering. I guess there is no use in you spending any time thinking about her as it is over. I do not know how much of a loss you have determined you have to deal with but *what is most important is that you do what you have to keep getting over her and improving yourself.*

Gains, that is by far the most important for you IMO. You have had a lot of counseling and if you have gotten good counseling and you followed through and made the changes you needed to make to improve yourself then you probably will be better off now and in the future than you have ever been in your life. *Am I any where close to being right?*


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Arendt: I took the time to read your thread with interest this AM. And despite all that you've been through, I really think that you've handled matters most admirably. I wish you nothing but luck in your future endeavors and earnestly pray for your deliverance from this most undeserved situation.*


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I think you captured a relationship dynamic that in retrospect. You are an introspective person. In many ways self sufficient. At one time this appear attractive to your wife but as she became accustomed to you and there was not much surprize or romantic mystery, her attention wandered.

You may or may not have been able to socialize more and meet her need for society. She may have been seeking a references by which to measure you. You on the other hand have your work and were satisfied with what she gave you, until she cut if off.

Neither of your are in your 20s. So this break up will be a big thing in your lives. There is no escaping that. As a man you actually are relatively better off in the dating pool. If you pour yourself into your work, stay fit, cultivate your interests, etc. You will find someone new. Perhaps you can find a love greater than the one you have lost.

Your ex may or may not find happiness. One wonders if she is restless to have children.

Is she selfish?

Two or three months into your separation she should called off the maybe because she had already detached. The caring for the cats was absolute torture to read about. The concern she lavished on the animals and the presence she left in your apartment was sheer cruelty IMO. She was laying her scent there to confuse you. And for all you know she has been seeing other men.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Had an interview yesterday. I probably won't get that job as I messed up a little bit of a Hebrew test. Oh well. I have an opportunity in Baltimore perhaps. We'll see.

Thanks for the kind words from folks. 

I sent my wife a note tonight asking when she plans to file divorce papers and asking her to tell me when she does to inform me, and if possible an estimate about when they will arrive.

That as hard to send as it means I am in some ways pushing her to do what she said she was going to do, something I don't really want. But at the same time, I am not really liking this waiting thing. She said 2 months ago that she was going to file, and she has not done so but has not informed me of anything (no contact between us). 

But she is not coming back. That much is clear to me. So it does me no good for her to wait around. My IC said that she may be waiting for a note like that from me because I had asked her to wait. He said she might also be processing the reality that she will not have contact with me; there will be no ongoing friendship like she hoped. He also said that another reason is that maybe she is afraid because she will be more vulnerable to getting into unhealthy relationships with other men once divorced because she gets some of her sense of identity from having other men around.

None of that is my problem though. I'm not her therapy tool or way for her to keep other men at bay. If she wants the thing, I think it best to get it done and over with. But it was a hard email to send.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> He said she might also be processing the reality that she will not have contact with me; there will be no ongoing friendship like she hoped. He also said that another reason is that maybe she is afraid because she will be more vulnerable to getting into unhealthy relationships with other men once divorced because she gets some of her sense of identity from having other men around.


In other words she is selfishly holding on to you as an emotional protectorate.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I wouldn't say that. I asked her at one point to hold off on divorce. To wait a while and see if some time could heal things, time with no contact. Maybe she is doing that.

I'm sure she struggles with the whole thing. She wants divorce but funds it difficult if not impossible to actually do it because it means some heavy consequences. That is not relaly selfish, but more of a sign she cares. 

I heatr what you say about the dating pool stuff in an earlier post. I will not likely enter that realm for quite a while after the divorce is over. I will certainly not try to do so until it is finalized. I'll need time. I don't have kids, so that is a plus going forward. I myself would not wnat to raise another man's child so I will not date or seek a realtionship with somebody who has kids (I would struggle with even grown kids...something about that idea bothers me). So my own inclinations would limit me I suppose, but my not having kids is a good thing as far as future relationships.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Tuesday I sent an email asking my STBXW when she plans to file papers and to tell me when she does...no response yet. I saw her today sitting outside at her job. I went to a library where she works. She pretended that she did not see me, but I know she did. She was sitting on a bench and had to see me drive in because of where the road and bench are. 

I did not approach her or anything. I just got in the car and drove past her. I figure if she can't acknowledge my presence then I won't bother either. Why waste my time? It felt sad to do it, but I didn't dwell. She wanted to be "friends" and was upset that I did not want to do something like that, but cannot even acknowledge my presence. Whatever...its over...I'll be glad when I am moved away from here and will not see her like this anymore.

On the other hand...the OM she had an EA with a year ago...he is sitting on a panel discussion on sexuality at an upcoming professional conference. I am not happy at all about that. He's got a lot of nerve. I've talked with a friend about it and for now, I am writing him a print letter, copied to another person detailing what I know he has done and telling him to back off the panel at the professional conference. I didn't say what I might do if he does not...I'll need to think...I can cause him some trouble. I don't want to take revenge or anything, but this feels like being trampled on.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

She got back to me. She said she will file in the first week of June. 

Hearing that made me feel pretty sad. Maybe in the back of my mind I was hoping for something else.

I have an urgeto email her to ask her not to do it. But I haven't done so I don't think I will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I thought you said your separation was to be without dating? But your stbxw had and EA?

I don't think at this point there is any benefit in interacting with him or her. He is an expert on sexuality and he just an EA with your WAW?

Do not contact her at all. She checked out ages ago. You will only feel pain. Interact with others. Clearly she feels that you are crippled by your love of her and it is awkward since she feels nothing.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

That was before we separated.



LongWalk said:


> I thought you said your separation was to be without dating? But your stbxw had and EA?
> 
> I don't think at this point there is any benefit in interacting with him or her. He is an expert on sexuality and he just an EA with your WAW?
> 
> Do not contact her at all. She checked out ages ago. You will only feel pain. Interact with others. Clearly she feels that you are crippled by your love of her and it is awkward since she feels nothing.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah Long Walk, you rae right. I won't contac her at all about anything. My first reaction to her response was sadness and not wanting her to actually do it. But, I knew this was coming. She has been checked out of our marriage since at least the summer of 2012, had an EA in teh Fall 2012 and it ran into the new year.

she's been gone a long time. I am tired and drained with her. I hve a bright future and she is frankly a drag. Even if she did want to work things out I'd get stuck in an area with no job propects for me. I have trained for 12 years to teach in a university and that would be hard to give up.

As far as the OM, he was a friend of mine at one point and he currently teaches theology at a religious school. The professional panel is on theology and sexuality and will deal with various issues, one of which is infidelity and such. That man is a hypocrite. I did not expose him. But this professional society is one we are both members of and to thin he will be on a panel, one which condemns certain behaviors that he himself has engaged in, makes me pretty irate. I don't know that I am going to let that just stand.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Religious organizations are rife with hypocrisy. That is not your burden. Your wife had a long EA. If he was okay with that, there may have been more.

She became involved with someone doing the same sort of work as you. That is disturbing, especially since you are into theology. Sounds like she wants a heavy connection.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah...it has been a lingering issue for me for 18 months now, what to do about this guy. I always felt if I went to the admin at the place he works they would cover it up and likely fire my wife since she'd be an easier target. They would not fire her...they would simply not renew her contract under the guise of budget cuts. I saw no reason to do that...it is the person in power who should be held responsible here not the person, my STBXW, who has a lesser job. 

That plus I thought it would harm my chances at reconciling with her if I harmed her career path, and then the fact that I am trying to be careful about my own motives and such so that I don't act out of a need to hurt somebody when I am hurt so that I can feel at least temporarily better (doesn't work; not a good habit, etc), led me to just let it go.

But seeing his name on that panel just brought it all back up again. I generally don't think about him too much at all. I don't want anything to do with him. At one point we were friends. That is totally gone and will be forever. He thought we had an open marriage. He told me this when I first confronted him and said he'd back off, which he did not do. She moved out and few doors away from him until finally she cut it off with him June 2013. If she had not cut contact, I would not have went to counseling with her. I had planned to file divorce over the whole thing, but then she backed off from him. Who knows, that may start back up sometime. A disaster waiting to happen, but that is not my concern.

Maybe it is not my concern that this hypocrite will sit on a panel at a professional conference talking dumb ignoramus stuff while having helped drive a further wedge between my wife and I. Not sure how I can confront this, but I think it probably needs done. This will come up over and over for me at conferences, because we are in the same circles professionally. I am more connected than he is. I'm actually quite well published and such. So I could make an issue of it. How to do so without harming my own image and without it being something unhealthy on my part is the question for me.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

It was probably a PA. There is no point in involvement of any sort. Go dark on your cheating wife. You are a sincere and decent fellow. Concentrate on your work and art. You will replace your stbx with someone better.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah we have not had contact for months. That is the way it will be from here on out since we are getting divorced. I did not contact her and ask her to rethink things. Wouldn't make any difference anyhow and would be like punching myself in the gut. No need for that.

I had a third interview yesterday for a job I thought I messed up...the third interview went well. However, they said I am "vastly over-qualified" for the position and were concerned about me leaving soon. They want at least a 2 year commitment if not more. I can't do that. I'm looking for a teaching position in a university and several good ones are open and the searches will begin in the Fall for the 2015 year. Might have lost that, but I wanted to keep my integrity intact and just be upfront that I could only commit to a year. Probably lost that one, but I have to play this for a long game. Better to take a worse job for a year than be stuck in a mediocre one for a longer term. 

They've not said one way or another yet though. So who knows. I thought I blew it before, but didn't. They clearly think I'd do the best job of their candidates.

Anyway, most of my energy is in job searching and completing my writing for my degree. I think that once I am away from this area my perspective will change for the better: I won't constantly run into people we both know and feel awkward, I won't see her on the fly, I'll be clearer about my own direction and have better social connections in a city.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Made a decision last night to pack up my place in its entirety and move no matter what within the next 2 weeks or so. Whether I have a job going or not. I'm leaving this place. I can find work to pay bills and I would rather have a job for a year that I am not all that happy with and live somewhere better, than be here.

I've been a pretty nice guy through all of this. I needed to be in some ways to move from being so selfish to being a bit more other-focused. But I think I let my STBXW walk over me too much. She used me for rides and used my research, word-for-word, at a paid speaking thing (one I was supposed to be at but was not because of the separation). She spent time in my place while I was not here, even demanded it and I caved. I told myself I needed her to cat sit, when I did not: I could have moved then and stopped this stuff because deep down I knew it would end in divorce, but I just didn't want to let it go. I let her drag me along for nearly a year and a half to the point that my year now will be bit hard because I did not apply to good teaching jobs at universities so I could stick around and work things out with her. 

As I was writing this last paragraph I received an email from her saying that she appreciates the last time we interacted and will be in touch. What?! I'm moving regardless.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Do not reply.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I didn't. Today is her birthday. I didn't send anything for that either. Her email was really the first contact in a month. 

I am packing. I hate moving. Packing sucks.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

I know good things are ahead for you. Your story and your ability to read yourself and your situation is inspiring. I have no doubt that you are going to find yourself in a city and job that will make you happy! 

After the suckiness of packing.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah Thanks. I am headed to Milwaukee to sign a lease tomorrow. For the next year, I'll do whatever there. In the Spring, my university will let me teach probably. So that is good news. Can't wait to spend my summer there especially.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Arendt said:


> Yeah Thanks. I am headed to Milwaukee to sign a lease tomorrow. For the next year, I'll do whatever there. In the Spring, my university will let me teach probably. So that is good news. Can't wait to spend my summer there especially.


Did you get to see any of the big bike ride that took place today?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey, no I didn't because I did not make the trip after all. I forgot about a piece in my whole plan: I have a lease. I spoke with a person in the office at my apartment and she quite rudely told me my lease is not up till Sept., and I am liable for rent till then. I can get out early if I pay a certain amount and give 60 days notice. But I am liable for rent here for at least 60 days according to her.

I am planning to talk with this person's boss tomorrow and see if I can arrange something else. But I did put my 60 days notice in (even though I only have three months left on the thing!). So it looks like August 1 is my move date. I'll miss most of the summer in the city because of this which is a bummer.

To mitigate the costs I advertised for a roommate on Craigslist and somebody might be moving in soon for a couple months. I got a roommate off there when I lived in NYC before I got married. Best roommate I ever had. So hopefully this will work out too. He drives long haul so he apparently won't be here much. I already had my spare room packed so it made sense to try to get a roommate for a while. I'm going to run a background check on the guy tonight though.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Landlord is letting me out of one month of my lease. That means I'm moving August 1. I put in notice. I've asked people at my grad school about roommates up where I'm looking to move. Might be good to get a two bedroom and have somebody around who can watch the cats if I need to go away for a few days, and in general to be around somebody. If not I'm good in a one bedroom on my own (I live in a two bedroom on my own now...I use the spare room as a study with all my books and such). Feel good to have a definite date to move and a plan for moving. Light at the end of the tunnel. I'd rather go sooner, but this will do. I have several art shows in the area till then anyhow, so this will work.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Arendt said:


> Landlord is letting me out of one month of my lease. That means I'm moving August 1. I put in notice. I've asked people at my grad school about roommates up where I'm looking to move. Might be good to get a two bedroom and have somebody around who can watch the cats if I need to go away for a few days, and in general to be around somebody. If not I'm good in a one bedroom on my own (I live in a two bedroom on my own now...I use the spare room as a study with all my books and such). Feel good to have a definite date to move and a plan for moving. Light at the end of the tunnel. I'd rather go sooner, but this will do. I have several art shows in the area till then anyhow, so this will work.


Glad to know you were able to work something out, even if it's not quite what you wanted. You have a good attitude about this. Hopefully you can get the new place lined up soon, too and then just enjoy the summer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah thanks.

Just watched a really awesome video of five guys playing Billie Jean with beer bottles. Hilarious and amazing. 

Five Guys Perform Michael Jackson's 'Billie Jean' Only Using Beer Bottles


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Oh and I turned down the roommate after discovering he had a very recent felony drug charge and he tried to get out of paying part of the rent before he even moved in. Called me this morning telling me he got into an argument with his current roommate and moved out his stuff, can he bring his stuff now? Hell no. He burnt his bridge before settling the deal with me, tried to talk me down on rent, and then he has a record too (just a marijuana charge, but still)! Tried to force my hand and make me into a rescuer for his stupidity. Bad move on his part. I did say I am in graduate school, which he took to mean I am exceedingly stupid I guess. Whatever. I'm probably better off on my own for a few months anyhow.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Yikes. Good thing you stopped that one before it happened! It's awesome when those situations do work well, but that's always the risk, for sure. Yeesh.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah right! Stupid to even think I could get a decent roommate for such a short time. It is a good idea, maybe, for a longer term situation, but very little chance I can find a person who is stable that needs a place for such a short period. Not sure what I was thinking. That was way to impulsive and not really like me to post an ad without thinking through things enough to have seen that all I am likely to get are people in unstable situations themselves who are going to bring lots of baggage into my life, and I don't need that at all.

Oh well. No harm done really. Learned a lesson and that is that. Glad I got some time to pack. I really do loathe this part of moving.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Take in a beautiful single mom with a cute kid. Make sure she provides references.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Single man looking to get conned out of rent and belongings. Text if interested. Rent is free, I will even pay you to live here. 

How's that for an ad? What I should have put down I guess.  I wonder what would happen if I actually advertised that? I am sure some idiot would reply in all seriousness.

I could not imagine living with a woman with a kid. I don't have kids of my own and have been ambivalent about it. I'm pretty sure going forward that I will seek women who do not have kids.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Take in a beautiful single mom with a cute kid. Make sure she provides references.


I like your thinking.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Arendt said:


> Single man looking to get conned out of rent and belongings. Text if interested. Rent is free, I will even pay you to live here.


That could make for a really interesting social experiment!


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Kids are often more interesting than adults. But you don't realize it until you get into them. My eldest daughter graduates from gymnasium (high school) tomorrow.

Arendt, you may enjoy children. They are natural philosophers and artists.


----------



## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Arendt, is it not possible to sublet your lease completely?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah it would be. But by the time I find somebody I might as well just stay. Not a big deal. August 1 is a good date to move. 

Gives me some time to pack and I have a couple art shows in this area in June and July so I can work on some paintings and not have to drive back for them.

That and I am still beating the bushes for a 1 year position somewhere teaching. Have a few leads...hopefully something comes up before I actually go up and sign something. If not, it is all good. Have friends in the city I am moving to and they are helping me look for a place already and telling me where to look to be close to them. So it is all good. 

STBXW said she'd file this week, but I've heard nothing so far. Friday is her day off, so maybe tomorrow she'll let me know she finally filed.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I do a little very part time work as a framer in a local business. Anyhow, there is a young 25 year old girl there who has flirted with me for a long time. She has a small kid.

Anyway, I have not encouraged her nor do I flirt back. She's a good looking gal, and I have been flattered by the attention but I haven't done anything to encourage her. Anyhow, last night while I was working we were talking and I asked how she makes a living on a part time job with a kid. And she revealed she is married (she doesn't wear a ring). I was surprised but didn't show it. AS she was talking she said that she took the job to show her husband that she has options and can make it on her own if she wanted because they are having problems.

Damn...would have been so easy to get sucked into that. A beautiful young lady wanting to tell me secrets and whatnot. It is flattering and I like attention from women as much as the next guy I suppose. But I did not pry or try to engage that at all. I was pretty shocked. She's obviously a long way down the road toward separation and divorce. All the signs are there. All the flirting makes sense now. I don't want any part in that.

After I left I reflected on this a bit more too. How easy it is to get into a situation where you use another person to escape pain (from her end), and how easy it would be for a person not in the relationship to be sympathetic ear and that turn into something it should not. My wife had an EA and who knows, maybe more. I would not put myself in a situation to be an OM in any way. I know that pain, and I know that it is a dangerous thing to be too. But I at least could sympathize, for the first time, with the OM and how he may have been sucked into my STBXW's world. Too bad he wasn't more self-controlled, stupid ****. Anyway...it was on my mind last night and it came up this morning.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

A close up of a painting I am working on of a bluebird. I have several art shows coming up.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Nice!


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

It is natural that people leave relationships in stages. She is doing that.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

What do you mean LongWalk?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

That woman with the child flirted with you. She took off her wedding ring. She is practicing being single. She may or may not have told her husband that she is done or on the way out. She may be ready to cheat or she may only be ready to cheat emotionally. She may just want masculine friendship to gain confidence.

You are are right not to encourage her because you don't want drama in some immoral relationship.

Your refusal to flirt back may help her to understand that she must separate/divorce to start new relationships.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah. I hear that. I'll be sure to keep any chatter with her to a minimum as well just to be safe. Just do my work and leave it be. 

On another note, STBXW said she did not file for divorce this week as she planned, and in her two line email said she is traveling and will not be checking email this weekend. 

I wrote back that I am disappointed in the lack of communication and that if she is going to file I would like to know when she plans to do so, and that there is no use in prolonging it. If she isn't, she should tell me her thoughts and I will consider them. Whatever the case, I would like this to be acted on in a timely manner.

I'm going to end up having to file. My IC thinks that I might have to end up doing it as well. All of her moves in the relationship these past few months have been the result of me pushing her to decide and act. I'd much prefer she went through the hassle and payment for this than me. But if she doesn't do this in the coming week, maybe I should plan to do it myself the week of the 16th.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Make her follow through. Just ignore her completely.

You are a free man. Start dating if you want.

You know she is stlll playing games. No email over the weekend = sleeping in the woods with some guy in a tent? Email is on her telephone. She is just trying to wind you up. Just like her cat sitting. Going to your apartment and leaving her presence there to mess with your mind. Not filing for D on time, to mess with your mind.

Repeat. Ignore her.

Keep painting. Is that water color? Do you paint from photos or real life?

Can you do portraits?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Alright. Will do on the ignore thing. When she replies I'll leave it be.

I paint from photos usually. The photos is water color with some ink. I usually work in acrylic or oil for painting though. So I do cityscapes and I like painting various animals. I sell a lot of paintings I do of Chicago in particular. This of the Chicago Theater sign is acrylic. I have one similar to this in oil at a gallery where I currently live.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Great. Looks like you could make living at painting. Not many can say that.

My guess is that your extobe is proud of your abilities and intelligence. However, considers you emotionally not in her class. She is used to manipulating you, hence the loss of respect.

When she wanted separation it would have better to go straight for divorce. This would have forced her to decide then and there if she was going to work on your relationship. Probably you would have divorced anyway.

You are not very tight with her friends. If you stayed in the area, I would bet that one of her GF would show interest in you based on your ex's talk.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm planning to wait till I am divorced to date. First, because I woudl not date a woman who is separated because that is an iffy situation, and I would be leery of women who would date me while I am still in this situation. Second, I am also in a temporary situation here, so it would make little sense to date people while still in this place. Might as well wait till I move and the divorce is over. Finally, I'm not sure I am ready for that yet, but I am moving in that direction. By the time I leave here I might be. 

I do wnat her to follow through, but I would also like this done in a timely manner..


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

This whole conversation is so timely for me. 

I am grateful for the insight from both sides of this dating perspective. It's so strange to be in this weird gray area. I agree with Arendt that responding to this particular situation would not be right. This girl clearly has some things going on that need to be dealt with. Any involvement would certainly complicate both sides.

Arendt, I tend to be fairly traditional. As far as I'm concerned, I am married until I am not married anymore. But at the same time, I have been struggling lately, with much of what LongWalk mentioned. I definitely won't be in my own place until at least October. I don't even know how long a divorce will take once we start that. So that said, and knowing my marriage has not been good for a long time, is it fair to stay completely tuned out of attention from men until the divorce is final? 

I don't know the answer. I've just been struggling with how I feel about it. It's never clean and easy, is it?


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

I totally love the sign painting, by the way.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

People have different ideas about when it is okay to begin dating. Divorce takes a long time. So if both spouses have clearly stated that the marriage is over, then it is not cheating, especially if they inform their stbx that they are going to date.

There is TAM poster who has been separated from her ex for 2 years but he refuses to sign the collaborative divorce papers. She has begun seeing other men. She does not meet her ex in person.

TooNice, you don't have your own place yet. If you date you should certainly not bring anyone back to your marital home while you and husband share it.

Why are you moving by the way?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Arendt said:


> *I am packing. I hate moving. Packing sucks*.


*While packing is certainly a necessary evil in the moving process, just do it and totally concentrate on the thoughts of later "unpacking," and your newfound life of freedom from her that lies ahead of you!*


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah for me, I would not fault a person for dating while going through separation, especially if it has been prolonged and the two are clearly done. That is the case with me. 

For me, I don't need a woman in my life or anything. I mean, I don't need a woman to feel good about myself, to do the traditional "womanly" division of labor crap. I can take care of myself. Hell I am a great cook, I can clean. I'm a grown person in that regard. 

And I am not really lonely. I don't in any way feel a need to seek female companionship for some brief time. While I live where I do that is all it could be. Just a date here and there. Not worth my money or time in my view. 

On the other hand, I don't see myself as single for the rest of my life and I will be open to exploring relationships with women in the near future. I am in good shape physically (I lift weights 4-5 a week...and have done so for 2 years...and before that I ran marathons). I am in decent shape mentally. I am hopefully set for a decent career in a university within a year or two. So I don't foresee any problems finding a woman. I'm 39, but I pass for younger. I've aged well. It runs in the family.

The only issue with me is that I am transient for at least a year or so. I don't know where my career will take me. So I could easily say, I am not going to date till I have settled into a tenure-track post someplace. But that is a slippery slope of excuses I think. That could be one year or it could be two. I don't know.

Too nice: Thanks for the kind words on the painting. I sold that one this past February. I have a couple new ones that are similar that are oil, but are in a gallery where I live. I'll take them out for my upcoming art shows, which I am really excited about (great places to meet women if I wanted to...I've noticed that in the past...women talk to me pretty easily when they see me as an artist rather than a scholar...less intimidating maybe..and I'm fairly friendly at those things...in sales mode). 

If I were in your shoes I would definitely not date till I had my own place. And yeah, why are you moving? Do you all own a house? Rent is high and the places are small. You've not even filed for divorce yet (have you told your kids yet?). I would be leery of myself in that situation and my motives. What does your IC say?


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm not talking about diving into dating to lead to anything long term right now. It's summer, and where I live, summer is a really fun time of year with lots of social options. When I'm out with my friends, I just want to have fun and maybe even (gasp) be flirtatious without feeling horribly guilty. And not necessarily waiting another year before I do that. 
To be clear, I would never consider bringing anyone to my shared home. I don't even see that particular option -and all it implies- happening for some time. I want to have fun, but I am not ready for that. As I read this, I realize I may sound slightly shallow, but simply having flirty fun is a major piece of my marriage that I have not had. I agree with you, Arendt, that I don't need another person to make me happy. But that "fun" piece is something I have really missed. 

I know I can struggle to express myself well at times, but I hope that all makes sense.

We rent, so will will both be moving to smaller places. Although I love my neighborhood, I may move a little farther away from where we are, simply to get more for my money. A small part of me is excited to have my own place for the first time in my life, and I want something I will feel good about and can call home.

We have not told both kids yet. Unfortunately, timing just has not worked well. My H told his daughter before she went back to her college city for the summer. We will likely tell our son sometime this week. I think once that happens, I will be ready for us to start talking dates and logistics. I know we will stay in our shared place until at least the end of August, but I need to have an action plan in the works.

Arendt, I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread with this discussion, but I do appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. It's a subject I have struggled with a lot. I'm not a person who handles grey areas well, and this whole thing about when it's "ok" to move on is heavy on my mind. I suppose it's healthy that I am thinking about it, though. Anyway, thanks to all for the feedback!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey toonice,

You haven't hijacked anything. It is a discussion forum. Discuss 

I hear you about the wanting to have fun thing. I don't think that is shallow. I can relate. I've been separated for a year and a half and before that we had a year of hell. No fun at all between us. So two and a half years of awkwardness, sadness, anger, and a huge roller coaster...that takes a toll. I've had fun, but not with another woman really. Usually I have fun on my own or with a male friend. But I can definitely see how you would want to go out and maybe build up some confidence with some men. Can be a really good thing for you, and maybe me. I should think about it.

Grey areas are all there are in life really. AS an artist who mixes his own colors...there is no such thing as true black. Black is always a mixture of colors and is always tinted this way or that way (takes an eye to see it though). I mean, I am a vegan for example. I am so not for health reasons, though that is a benefit. But because I think killing other animals for pleasure is wrong (and 99% of us westerners do not need to eat other animals, and so it boils down to habit and pleasure). But, I also realize that the industrial farming system in this world where we have monocrops and pesticides is harmful to the earth and to other creatures. So I don't think I am being "pure" or anything. I just think it is way better than the mass slaughter currently going on. A grey area. But the shades matter. There is light grey and grey so dark you almost think it is black.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Grain and vegetables require the sacrifice of animal lives. The machines that harvest wheat or beans crush and mangle countless small animals. You cannot put your spade into the soil without severing worms.

We could eat less meat to be sure. The ethical impact of all foods could be rated. Bananas that come from monoculture farms are a violation of the environment, but they are seen as a harmless food. Tuna fish cost the lives of dolphins.

The only way to have no imprint on the world is to not exist.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Arendt said:


> I hear you about the wanting to have fun thing. I don't think that is shallow. I can relate. I've been separated for a year and a half and before that we had a year of hell. No fun at all between us. So two and a half years of awkwardness, sadness, anger, and a huge roller coaster...that takes a toll. I've had fun, but not with another woman really. Usually I have fun on my own or with a male friend. But I can definitely see how you would want to go out and maybe build up some confidence with some men. Can be a really good thing for you, and maybe me. I should think about it.


Yes-thank you! This is what I was trying to say. You really hit home with the reference to building up confidence. This journey does take a toll. It's just nice to have interactions that reinforce that we can have relationships again when we are ready.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Got an interview on Wednesday. A job teaching at a university for a year in a southern city. Would be a good gig, and the opportunity, if they offer it comes at just the right moment.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Best of luck!


----------



## Bluebirdie (Apr 26, 2014)

Good luck tomorrow!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I had a great interview this morning for a professorship. I have a good chance at getting it.

Before the Skype interview I made the mistake of checking my email. I made the further mistake of opening a rare email from my STBXW. In a three line email she informed me she filed for divorce and would take a few of my personal items to my apartment complex office and drop them off.

I made sure not to let it affect my attitude and cheerfulness during the interview (and it is not affecting me negatively now). However, I find it ironic that the woman who wanted to be friends finds herself unable to send the most basic of email courtesies but limits herself to three liners and cannot give my my belongings in person but uses a mediator. There is no really good reason for this divorce. LongWalk, you are correct. She wants me to be more emotionally on her level, which I am willing to work at and have done so. I'm not a wreck or anything. I am a pretty stable guy mentally, physically, and emotionally. This divorce is on her. 

ON the plus side, I would not be able to take a teaching position somewhere if we were still trying to work at things (or rather if I were trying and she was just placating me). I'd be stuck in this hole in the earth working in a factory or a coffee shop or doing construction. All respectable work, but I trained for 12 years to teach at a university and don't want to waste all that hard work and my abilities (I mean hell, I know 7 languages...what use are those in a factory?). SO this is good. I have the world open before me and can go where ever and places are interested in me so the doors are open. Too bad she won't come along, but I'll find somebody else to live life with.

I don't think I am going to respond to her email in any way. What do you-all think?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I don't see the point of a reply.

How many paintings that you want to sell remain in your inventory?

Once you have a destination for departure arrange a final show, offer wine and food. Call it your farewell exhibition. 

Perhaps you can even paint some thematic works with symbols of birds departing. You may gain closure by channelling your angst into art.

You should not invite your ex. But any of her friends who attended shows and are interested in art are legit.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

That's a great idea. Thanks. Not sure if I would have time to do the works, but I will consider it. 

My mother said the same thing about not replying. Obviously STBXW doesn't really want contact and in the end I don't either. Time to move on.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Arendt: Take the professorship ~ and don't reply back to her! You're on the track to having good things happen for you. Why entertain having her mess that up for you, too?

And BTW, Congratulations, Professor!*


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Arendt said:


> My mother said the same thing about not replying. Obviously STBXW doesn't really want contact and in the end I don't either. Time to move on.


She is making that nice and easy for you, isn't she?

You are absolutely correct when you state that this is all on her. You just keep being the solid, stable person you clearly are. It will bother her to no end to see that you are just fine.

I'm voting for do not reply, too.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah no reply. I have thrived and will thrive. I'm going to be a major theologian. That is clear. In the interview, one of the professors said he uses one of my books in his course. Nice to know. I'm already on my way and better things are coming career-wise. I certainly will not do these things to get revenge or think that my success eats at her. No way. If it did, or if she sees my success and wishes she were part of it, that is on her. I tried to bring her along; she said no. I was willing to do quite a bit to save this thing, but in the end, I cannot force her to do what she doesn't want to do.

Yep, she is making cutting contact very easy. I should be grateful for that. You know, she might even be doing it for that reason. She is not a bad person at all. She has issues, but she is a successful person herself and if she plays her cards right, she can go on to great things. But she'll need to leave the place she is at now and grab what can be hers. I hope she does. I won't feel sorry for myself if she becomes a best-selling author and speaker or something. Not at all. She has the potential. I do too. But we are going separate ways.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I wondered how I would take the divorce papers being filed. I thought that I would be okay with it and would not be all that sad or depressed or anything. During he past several months since she finally said she wanted a divorce I have felt like I have been able to accept that even though I think we could work things out if she wanted to do so.

I was right. No sleeping in half the day. No thinking about this constantly. No obsessing about any aspect of it. I was not home today when the mail person came so I got a missed note, which was probably the papers. I'll got to the post office and grab them at tomorrow probably. 

Anyway...I think I am doing okay with this. It is weird. It is not like I don't care or am apathetic about it. 

I had also come to the point where I was thinking of filing on my own if she did not do so in a timely manner. So that helped. It also helped that I have been able to reevaluate things and look back over the past year with a different set of eyes. I still see my faults in the breakdown of things. I see where I needed to grow and what I have done to improve. If I had done these things years ago, who knows, maybe things would have turned out differently. Yet I also see that she was gone long, long before she left and she dragged this out not because she wanted to reconcile but most likely because she didn't want to hurt me and just has a terrible time actually ending things and following through on big decisions. I can see all that clearly. I can see clearly now that I was in a bit of a fog about where things could go given where she is and has been at with things. 

On the other hand, I can say I gave it every shot that I could. I did everything I could do to fix the problems that led to the breakdown of the marriage and also to be a more attractive person to her. But she was done. I don't feel responsible for the divorce, but I can accept it and do. 

I set up an online dating profile on one of the sites. I do not plan to date anyone in this area since I am moving soon. That is, I will not ask any women out via the site at this point, and I am still only separated, and I am against dating till I am divorced for myself. I did it as a moving on exercise.


----------



## Bluebirdie (Apr 26, 2014)

I can relate to you. When he dropped the bomb of D after a year of separation last January I got really depressed, this was 6 months ago... now? I am waiting for papers to come and sign them right away. I "think, feel" I have already accepted his decision and the fact that it's a 2 persons work, not one. 

*
On the other hand, I can say I gave it every shot that I could. I did everything I could do to fix the problems that led to the breakdown of the marriage and also to be a more attractive person to her. But she was done. I don't feel responsible for the divorce, but I can accept it and do.*

Feel the same too. It hurts, but mostly for me it is now like the feeling of a failure, not "loosing him". He was a person who answered to me when I expressed my wish for a wedding band that he didn't feel like doing it... but bought me expensive jewerly except for that important band for me... that answered to my "I wish one day I can retire from our business and take care of our grandson/daughter if one of our kids needs it"... a: "There is nothing worth in a woman that doesnt work"... etc, etc.. 

No way I am going back to that man at ALL!


----------



## Bluebirdie (Apr 26, 2014)

Found the book I bought back in 2009 "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay"... wow! I should have done that back then... unfortunately I didnt have the 00 to do it.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Like BB, I can relate to much of what you stated here. 
I am having a much harder time coming to terms with losing consistent relationships with his family. And I will miss our core family time. We are a fun family... I know I will create new fun, but I will miss that.

And this... I can very much relate to. Weird. Definitely weird. But I know what you mean:



Arendt said:


> Anyway...I think I am doing okay with this. It is weird. It is not like I don't care or am apathetic about it.


You are doing the very most important thing we can do in our situations, and that is to recognize, learn, and improve from whatever it was that became irreparable. Many people do not take advantage of that opportunity. Good for you. You've got good things coming.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah. I don't have much in terms of regret in how I have handled the separation, but I do wish I had been more open-minded and able to shift gears before things got to the point they did. I did try even then, but I couldn't see just how petty and ridiculous I had become in my career mindedness. The 12 Step work I did over the past year has been the best thing...I had an 80 page resentment list for crying out loud! Petty sh!t most of it. 

TooNice, do you have to cut ties with in-laws? I won't be in touch with mine, but who is to say it cannot be done and you still move on? You'll need some closure somehow with them I guess. 

BB: Feeling like a failure? Sometimes I have that thought...but my temptations are normally to arrogance, so those thoughts don't live in my head too well  Even if I do feel like one sometimes, I know how to project confidence. On the other hand, that resentment list was a wake-up for me...all those grudges and sense of entitlement ironically hid an underlying negative view of myself. Counseling was good for giving me better perspective that is for sure.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Wow-I think you could write quite a how-to on self discovery. Impressive.  As well as I think I am doing overall, I know I need to work on some self improvement. Thanks for providing some inspiration there. 

As for my in-laws, no, I don't think I will need to cut ties completely. But we have 20 years in. Even if I maintain relationships, for now, I will spend most holidays by myself or creating new things, while they keep the norm. At first, that will be hard for me. I will adjust, but they have some great traditions. I will miss that.


----------



## Bluebirdie (Apr 26, 2014)

Too Nice, Arendt:
I think I will miss more his family than him. We were really a great team and got along really well. But, that is his family and have had some little experiences that show me they are on his side to protect him even though they say at the same time he will regret his decision one day... I dont have time for "the one day"... what he has showed to me and I kept for myself has gone far away.

Yes, I feel like a failure, cause I have been a woman of "challenges" and sucess in our relation somehow was one. 

Acceptance and keep on with my life thinking about me... that's the challenge I have now. Difficult, cause I feel alone; even though I dont want him back in my life. Hard to explain, but my heart and soul feels it so deeply.

We will get out of this, we will be ok. I trust my God we will. It's just a matter of time, patience and acceptance.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

I know it's easier said than done, but don't feel like a failure. You were both there. Not one of us is perfect, and we grow from our imperfections. I suspect if you can move on from those feelings, it may help you with the acceptance and loneliness. 

We will get out of this, and be better for it. You are right to trust in that.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So I went to the post office and got the divorce papers. She is suing for a no fault divorce with no property and no debt to divide. A clean divorce as they say.

I went to teh gym afterward and I guess my instinct was to try and find her and talk her out of this disaster. But that is just a temptation. I won't follow through on it. But I still don't think this divorce is right and I don't agree that it is necessary. But I can and do accept it.

I have 60 days to counter-sue. If I don't file anything, then it goes through. She's changing her name back of course. We both changed our names in the marriage. I will keep mine as is because I have published numerous books and articles under this name and am something of a public figure in the theological world. I like the name and it doesn't bother me. And career-wise it is way better to keep my name as is. I don't think I have to do anything to keep it. The papers say you have to indicate if you want to change and what to. So if I do not file a response, they will just keep my name as is, which is how I want it.

I guess my other reaction was whether I should file a counter....no debt on her end. I have a little. But maybe it is better to just let it go and assume it myself. I can and will handle it. She is saying she doesn't want a fight by not making any issue of anything. So that is probably for the best and I should probably just let the 60 days pass and do nothing as far as the courts go.

This legal stuff is all a formality if we have no debt and property to divide. Neither of us ever put any stock int he legalities of the marriage (we got married at a court house a few days before our church wedding in order to keep the church/state thing separate, since our anarcho-socialist politics kind of rub against having church/state mixed all up with each other). So really, if I am true to my politics, this is over. The legal stuff is just that formality thing we did to cover our tracks if one of us got hurt or whatever.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

How much debt do you have?

How much was accumulated while you were married?

If you paid for more groceries, rent, etc while together, then you might consider asking her for half the debt.

Her good opinion of your is unnecessary. What is fair according to the law is fine.

You don't have to file. You can ask her for half the debt in return for which you will sign on the spot. You can meet at a coffee shop to do this.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah I think I am going to let all that go. Over the years she paid her fair share of things and it probably would be fairest to let this ride out. 

I did send that letter I talked about...the one I wrote to the OM detailing what I knew and in no uncertain terms demanding he step down from the panel he will be on. I know the committee members for that event and if he doesn't respond or step down, I'll bring this to them. I'm not obsessed with that, but I don't think it is good to let it go. This is a way to address the issue without going to his job where my stbxw also works and where it might come back on her more than him. In this context, the people I know on that committee organizing this would not stand for him being there if they know about the issue.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The money is just money. But as a matter of principle you could be strict. As to the EA, which given your WW's decision to move close to him, may well have been a PA, you find the principle important, only for him. 

Why don't you hold her equally responsible? From a theological or ethical stand point a man and woman who fornicate are equally on the hook.

If it was just an EA, there is no formal transgression, or is there something substantial in their relationship?

Do you think that you waited until she filed the divorce to act? If so, was this tactically to your advantage?

Do you expect him to inform your wife? What reaction do you anticipate from her? If she lashes out at you, what then? If she scorns this final drama, won't you feel additional pain?

A 13-year-long marriage is a major commitment of a person's life. I can understand your sorrow and regret. But you have devoted so much of your life to study that I think you can sublimate the negative emotions elsewhere.

Paint. What better outlet to calm the turmoil?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah that wasn't about my emotions. There is a current controversy in his seminary about a certain theologian who once taught there who carried on in the same manner and I have written about it, and published that persons books in the past. This OM holds the job that this major public figure once held and his place of employment has made public statement and has set up a formal review board over the old professor (now deceased) to see what role the institution played in covering up his behavior (which included harassment and other such things). Having spent a lot of my graduate career editing that man's books, not knowing that he did those things, it was pretty shocking to hear.

But here this OM is, in that position, doing exactly the same thing.

So yeah it is personal. But given the history there, something probably needs to be done. I was willing to let it all go actually and just wait it out, because I'm pretty sure he'll get caught at something else down the road. But the panel thing, where he will sit on it and talk trash about the deceased person while doing what he did...can you see now? It is not about revenge. If he steps down from the panel, I'd take that as an admission of sorts and just sit tight and do nothing else. 

I'm quite certain he will inform my stbxw. I don't care what she thinks about it. He's reckless. He's in a position of power and he abuses it. And he does so right under the nose of the people trying to root out that stuff in his institution.

I don't know. I don't want to put much energy at all into it. You are right, I have outlets for any pain and anger or whatever and I use them (painting now actually). But there is another problem here, and it does hit home with me on a number of levels.

It is not about revenge or sating my sadness over the divorce. No matter what happens the marriage is over. Not trying to do this to channel energy into that in order to get over my sadness. I'm very aware that I could do that. Motives here matter. I waited till she filed because I did not do this before because I thought it would hurt our chances to R. That and I am aware of how revenge is destructive and a bad habit to get into kept me from speaking up. 

Maybe I should drop it, but I am going to see this person at conferences quite a bit over the years. He's likely to carry on with his students, abusing his power . . . is it better to put this on the table and walk on? Maybe you are right. My IC has cautioned me on this as well. Motives are the big thing.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Saw the stbxw today. Said hi and kept walking. Will be very glad when I move and do not run into her though.

REgarding the other matter...I haven't heard back from him, and don't expect to. I'm going to talk with a friend tomorrow on the planning committee and just talk with him about what has happened. It is up to him what to do with that information. I'll let it go after that. I don't want to invest too much into this type of thing, but I do think I need to tell some people and just let them do whatever they want. I don't even want to know what they decide. But they cannot down the road say they were not warned. I'll have done my duty at least and that is what I concerned about here. Keeping silent when there may very well be something I need to speak up about. It was okay to be silent for the sake of my marriage. I am not sure it is okay to keep it back without that though. It just doesn't feel right. But again, maybe I am wrong. But I am going to inform a couple people, and then I am going to drop it completely and walk away from it.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> It was okay to be silent for the sake of my marriage.


Why do you think the silence helped your marriage?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I don't think it helped. I just think that had i caused her some harm or loss of job, she'd have seen it as me trying to manipulate circumstances to force her to come back, and she would have resisted.

I don't think it helped, but my concern was not to do any further harm.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So I had a very good talk with my friend today on the committee. During the conversation it became clear to me, based on his own experiences, his own word about how the conference is going to go, and noticing how anxious I have been about this and angry, not wanting to put this energy into this thing, that I should drop this. In his words "Sh!t happens. We either learn from it or not." 

I went into the conversation with the attitude that I would take him very seriously. He's the first person outside of an intimate circle that I have told about this. So I figured it would be a gauge but also a way to get some distance from it all and perspective.

I'm going to drop it all and just move on. It is what is best for me, for my stbx, for my career, and who needs the drama? I'm content with it now.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm so glad this has reached a point where it is comfortable for you to let it go and walk away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey folks. I didn't get the job I mentioned earlier. I had a good interview with them, but they needed a person of color to teach one of the courses, since it was on Black theology. Makes sense if they had a good candidate to hire the other person. Would have been nice, but I already had a plan to move to where my grad school is, and that is still on. I'll teach there in the Spring and in the meantime take a job doing whatever I can find.

My stbxw and I's wedding anniversary was Thursday. Neither of us contacted the other to acknowledge it. It went fine for me. In general I was always less enamored with those kinds of dates anyhow. But it was on my mind a little that day. Nothing too heavy though. More unhappy about not getting that job than anything (they told me Thursday as well). But even that, as I said, is all good.

Funny...I put up an online dating profile as I had said. I do not check it. But I put a serious profile up for later really. Had a lady message me through it, a professor a couple years older than me, divorced. Wanted to know more about me. I told her some more and we've been chatting a little through there.

I have an art show tomorrow. Really looking forward to it. Here is a piece I did this week.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Sorry about the job. I continue to be impressed by the grasp you have of everything in your life. You seem so accepting of whatever turns your path takes. I love that.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

signed a lease today. Nice apartment downtown close to where the music festivals and such are in the city I am moving to August 1. Very excited about this.

While i was there today a couple things happened. Locked my car keys in my car while going to look at the apartment and sign a lease. A friend brought me a wire hanger to try to pull the lock, and this woman came over and helped. She had broken into her own car several times and was able to get my car open. Very nice of her. A vegan anarchist, like myself. That was cool. It took both of us a coulple tries before the hanger would finally latch.

Then I went to a local co-op, which I love in the city. Very cool people there. I joined it and got a volunteer application. That is a good place to network and meet folks. Lots of like-minded people around there so I'll mae new friends there and find out about city-life and activities from great people.

While there I ate lunch and this drop dead gorgeous woman was in there and kept looking at me. I don't know what happened but when she was leaving I smiled or somethign and so did she and she paused and started to come back toward me. Then she stopped and waved at me and walked away. I almost got up and went after her, but didn't. Whatever. it was a small thing, but significant enough that I realized I am going to meet a lot of great people. I'm going to love living in that city!!

In fact, on Friday night I am going back for a big concert with Five Finger Death Punch to celebrate the lease and moving. Can't wait. Seriously...I cannot wait to move up there.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

So happy for you! All great things.

I'll be at that big concert place on Thursday. One of the best parts of the summer!


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I'll be living within walking distance of the place. A block from the lake.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So after sleeping most of the day away from exhaustion, traveling and an art show, I'm spending the evening packing, cleaning and refelcting on myself and life going forward. I wondered if I would even have what it takes to get back into dating or whatever.

So I looked up some dating tips nd techniqes and ran across this stuff that is geared toward men that gives men techniques for hooking women. 

For example, the woman I mentioned in the co-op who smiled at me and such: these people would have recommended that I do something like the following. She had bleached her hair and had at one point put a little pink strip in it that had now faded. They would recommend I approach her and say "nice hair, but what color is it naturally?" In other words, give her a backhanded compliment that plays on any insecurities she may have and slowly get her to seek my approval.

Holy ****. Is that what people are doing nowadays? That sounds like awful manipulation. Why not just say to her, I like your hair? Or, since I am an artist, you are beautiful, would you be interested in getting your portrait painted? Far more honest and not trying to hook somebody.

Geez. Are men actually doing that kind of **** to women?


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

I posted my bed for sale on Craigslist. Hopefully I can sell it off pretty quickly. MNy new apartment is smaller than where I live so I need a smaller bed, and I don't want the bed she and I picked out when we got married.

I am going down to a full size and I think I might make my own frame. Cheaper. Better quality wood. And something fun to do. I found some good DIY examples through a search that I can use. I am particularly thinking of using this example: Building of the Bed Frame |


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

So last week I changed my location on the dating site to the place I am moving to. Three women already asked me out. Geez. One is clearly not suitable: divorced multiple times and whining about it on the site. The other two are good looking women and their profiles didn't raise any issues immediately. I messaged back saying I am not in town for a month and after that if they want to get together for coffee I'd be down with that. 

I'm going to like that city 

Anybody had experience with those online sites? Any advice on what to watch out for or whatever?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Hadn't read any posts by you in a long while but you popped up on another thread and posted this:



> Fenix had some initial thoughts in this thread about your abusive behavior, which you later minimized that it was not that bad. You should not take all the blame. But intimidation and all that is not a good sign. Did you get into IC yet?
> 
> On the whole you seem to be handling things well; no panic and anxiety attacks and all that. But there are some indications that IC could help you, particularly around maleness and intimidation.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're doing well.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey Long Walk:

I don't post here too often anymore.

Yeah I am doing well. I am divorced, moved to a new city, have a new job teaching men convicted of domestic violence about nonviolence and challening their patriarchal gender role ideas, as well as teaching part-time at a nearby university. I have a new car (prius!). I am dating a great woman, dating about 5 months now. All in all, life is good.

The holidays are approaching and I invited the woman I am dating to come with me to my parents. She has two kids but they will not be with her this year so she might as well come with me.

The kids are 2 and 9. I do not have any kids. Never really been around them till I started dating this lady. I never wanted them.

Her two year old is a little hard to deal with. he can be incredibly sweet at times, but other times he whines and cries and throws fits. Not very pleasant. I am not used to dealing with that sort of thing. If there is one thing that gives me pause, it is that. I could not, for example, see myself moving in with her and putting up with that day after day. Her 9 year old is no problem at all. 

So I am working through that issue in the dating thing. Should probably go to counseling and get a third party to help me discern.

As far as my ex...I do not hear from her or have any contact at all. I think about her from time to time. I don't dwell on her much.


----------



## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Nice to have you pop in, Arendt! I'm happy for you that things are going so well. The kid situation will sort itself out-there are lots of ways that can play out, including the fact that he's 2 and won't always be. ;-) Growth and development might be on your side, there. 

The third party perspective is likely not a bad idea, either. 

Hope you enjoy your holidays!


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Merry holidays!


----------

