# Neither party can have it all, so why not accept what is good enuf?



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

If you've read this forum long enuf, you know men complain about not enuf sex or HOW they get sex (meaning they have to initiate most of the time). Women complain he wants it too much, or isn't satisfied that she DOES have sex bcuz she loves hum, but not bcuz she is gagging for it.

Statistically, it would seem these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, it comes off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off.

Seems like men want us to accept their porn habits & fantasies about other women bcuz it's "their nature." After having babies, maybe working, and running a household, most women lose their drive & don't need sex. They do it BCUZ they love you. It's our nature (from reading these forums, at least).

Why is it ok for your nature to rule w/ no empathy or understanding of ours? If we aren't ready to swallow a bucket of c*m or do something freaky, we are prudes or liars due to a bait & switch. 

If we both accept what is and work together to meet in the middle, isn't that best for the marriage & the family?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

So, not only should I accept duty sex; but I should also be grateful for it. Good luck with that. I'd rather leave and find someone who's into me.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

Closed minds bcuz of an ego wrapped up in sex. That's sad. Life is more than sex. If she is LD, just keep making her feel like garbage bcuz she isn't a porn star. Good luck w/ that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> Life is more than sex.


That's what THOSE people say. But guess what, you can only choose what life is for YOU. You don't get to choose what's important in life for anyone else.

If the fact is that one of use is going to feel like garbage....either me for being rejected or placated, or her for being inadequate, then why should I be the one to feel like garbage? Especially if I was the one to feel like garbage for being rejected for years? When is it her turn to feel like garbage? Which is the selfish one?


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

First, this isn't just a guy thing, there have been women complaining of the same thing. 

Secondly, i think it matters how much of a difference there is. If the wife wants sex once every two months, yeah, I think that's grounds to be a bit *****y as a man. Few guys sign up for that.

Third, 'duty' sex (which I assume you are referring to) is fine if done with enthusiasm, something which has been pointed out many times around here. We like sex with enthusiasm. We don't like it when you sigh, lay in the bed, say "hurry up" and start counting ceiling tiles.

And finally, yes, men do like having their sexual needs serviced in general. Just like women like have their financial and security needs met, in general. Would most women like it if we only paid the bills once every few months, *****ed about how much they spend on things, that they don't buy us things and in general ***** about everything to do with money, work and whatever else we provide? Is working and helping out around house not enough?

The coin goes both ways, depending on the issue. Men want a happy, fulfilling sex life the same as women want other things. A good marriage is about finding out what your partner wants and needs and striving to fulfill that. If that's not for you, then don't get married and have sex only when you feel the need to go get it. Nobody made you put a ring on your finger.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

I think occasionally in most marriages a woman starts counting ceiling tiles no matter how "good" it/he is. That's just life - just like drives & people's bodies, attitudes & women's hormones changing. Meeting needs is the point of marriage. But, why look a gift horse in the mouth on either side?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So, not only should I accept duty sex; but I should also be grateful for it. Good luck with that. I'd rather leave and find someone who's into me.


She is making a point similar to what I was trying to. 

The fact that the person you love is making an effort should amount to something. 

Maybe it isn't ideal but maybe her love language isn't sex. It really cannot be said "because she isn't tripping over her vaginal juices to get to me, she isn't into me." 

She can love you just fine and just not want sex as much as you do.

That's all, not trying to start a fight.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

There's not much to say to such bitterness, projection and over-generalization.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> She is making a point similar to what I was trying to.
> 
> The fact that the person you love is making an effort should amount to something.
> 
> ...


Why should that matter? What good is that love if it is not in a language that your partner receives? If you need deep conversation, and your partner jsut wants sex, do you still feel that love? After all, he is trying in the language that works for him? Would that mean something?

Of course not. Nor should it. Your spouse should seek to meet your needs, not their own, and vice versa. Otherwise, you are not meeting their needs.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Honeysuckle rose, we men have our needs to feel cherished as well when it comes to marriage. And it's not just sex. Knowing you can satisfy a woman and knowing she appreciates you for ALL your love is also very important for a man.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why should that matter? What good is that love if it is not in a language that your partner receives? If you need deep conversation, and your partner jsut wants sex, do you still feel that love? After all, he is trying in the language that works for him? Would that mean something?
> 
> Of course not. Nor should it. Your spouse should seek to meet your needs, not their own, and vice versa. Otherwise, you are not meeting their needs.


If you tell her you have concerns about sex and she STEPS UP and starts sleeping with you, it isn't really fair to keep *****ing about it w/out giving her any credit. 

You can't expect someone to go from zero to doing a porn star move in a day.

And are you saying men only feel love through sex?

Because in that case, my 16 year old little brother LOVES the entire cheerleading squad.

She CANNOT MAKE HERSELF WANT SEX AS MUCH AS YOU DO. She can only control her ACTION in an attempt to please you. That is the OP's point.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> Statistically, it would seem these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, it comes off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off._Posted via Mobile Device_


I won't disagree with a word that you have written, and yet it still seems like you tone misses the point.

Looking again at my example of someone needing quality time, would it be acceptable if your spouse repeated yawned, looked the other way, zoned out and was generally uninterested as they conversed? If they tried to avoid it, communicated through body language that they were just trying to get through it, did it the minimum number of times, and were going through the motions? I think we all could agree that even though they are trying out of love, they are not really meeting your needs.

Sex for many men is no different. I think most recognize that their wife will go through cycles when it is just not humming along. But when a cycle lasts a couple of years, and attempts to discuss have been met with empty promises, it can be frustrating. 

Just as frustrating, I suspect, as when other needs are not met.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> And are you saying men only feel love through sex?


Ummm, pretty much, yup. See how simplistic we are.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

honeysuckle rose said:


> If you've read this forum long enuf, you know men complain about not enuf sex or HOW they get sex (meaning they have to initiate most of the time). Women complain he wants it too much, or isn't satisfied that she DOES have sex bcuz she loves hum, but not bcuz she is gagging for it.
> 
> Statistically, it would seem these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, it comes off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off.
> 
> ...


I really fail to see an issue with this post. 

As long as she isn't being a huffy ***** about it, what is the problem with her making an effort out of love?

She can't MAKE herself horny. If she only had sex when she was horny, there wouldn't be enough sex and we'd be back to square one. At some point...cut the other person some slack if they're trying.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> If you tell her you have concerns about sex and she STEPS UP and starts sleeping with you, it isn't really fair to keep *****ing about it w/out giving her any credit.
> 
> You can't expect someone to go from zero to doing a porn star move in a day.


Never said she had to. And depending upon how she sleeps with me, then yes, I would give my wife credit.



> And are you saying men only feel love through sex?
> 
> Because in that case, my 16 year old little brother LOVES the entire cheerleading squad.


You have a lot to learn about men and sex, particularly as the age and are involved in a long term relationship. I don't mean that as a put down, as I did not learn it or understand it until I was older than you. For me, sex is the best way for me to receive love from my wife. I understand and feel it in the other ways she gives me, but sex is number one for me. It is not just the physical, but the emotional initimacy that I share with no other person on the planet. That is what makes it so important to many men. It is their woman accepting them and showing them love.



> She CANNOT MAKE HERSELF WANT SEX AS MUCH AS YOU DO. She can only control her ACTION in an attempt to please you. That is the OP's point.


And I disagre. I think there are steps she can take that may help the process along. One of them is to be open and honest with her husband, which is something she is having great difficulties with (not without reason). Nothing works at all times for all people, but there are things that can help some people that are worth exploring.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

T&T said:


> Ummm, pretty much, yup. See how simplistic we are.


Then I wonder WTF I am...


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Then I wonder WTF I am...


I was joking...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I really fail to see an issue with this post.
> 
> As long as she isn't being a huffy ***** about it, what is the problem with her making an effort out of love?
> 
> She can't MAKE herself horny. If she only had sex when she was horny, there wouldn't be enough sex and we'd be back to square one. At some point...cut the other person some slack if they're trying.


I was just having an argument about this kind of thing this morning. You say that you can't make yourself horny, but the fact is that if you were with the right guy then you would be horny. Which is proof that a woman in that situation simply isn't that into her man. My wife keeps insisting that she is into me totally. I told her this morning, I'll only believe her actions. The words are meaningless without action to back them up.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> My wife keeps insisting that she is into me totally. I told her this morning, I'll only believe her actions. The words are meaningless without action to back them up.


Agreed, my wife can say all the ILUs she wants, but in the end do I feel it having been treated like a c--k for the last 4 years? Nope

BS is BS


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Never said she had to. And depending upon how she sleeps with me, then yes, I would give my wife credit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand there is an intimate side to sex but every time a man wants sex, there isn't emotion behind it. He's just good ol' fashioned horny, which is totally fine, but you can't get mad a woman for not being horny in the same way you are.

You poke her in the back with your morning wood and she says no.

Problem.

Same scenario but she says yes but it's clear she isn't DYING for it.

Also a problem.

Where is the win? At what point does get it right? Genuine 
concern. 

For instance, I hate morning sex. But I was told it was selfish of me to never give him morning sex. So fine, if I give it to him it won't be cause I have a physical desire to do it. It's like a no win.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> [*MY CONCLUSION FROM READING THIS FORUM IS THAT*] men complain about not enuf sex or HOW they get sex (meaning they have to initiate most of the time). [*IT SEEMS TO ME THAT*] Women complain he wants it too much, or isn't satisfied that she DOES have sex bcuz she loves hum, but not bcuz she is gagging for it.
> 
> *[I'M ASSUMING*] these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but [*AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED]* if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, [*IT SEEMS TO ME MEN CONCLUDE IT COMES*] off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off.
> 
> ...


Fixed it for ya.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I was just having an argument about this kind of thing this morning. You say that you can't make yourself horny, but the fact is that if you were with the right guy then you would be horny. Which is proof that a woman in that situation simply isn't that into her man. My wife keeps insisting that she is into me totally. I told her this morning, I'll only believe her actions. The words are meaningless without action to back them up.


Not everyone is wired like a testosterone pumped man. 

I am very attracted to my partner and I'm not constantly itching for sex. Isn't part of marriage accepting your partner for the way they are built? 

If your sex comes from horny and her sex comes from love, what is wrong with that?


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks for that Jaharthur, it was getting hard to comment due to the very broad generalisations of men OP had.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If you tell her you have concerns about sex and she STEPS UP and starts sleeping with you, it isn't really fair to keep *****ing about it w/out giving her any credit.
> 
> You can't expect someone to go from zero to doing a porn star move in a day.
> 
> ...


Your 16 year old brother is not a man.

I really don't get the way some women think. Duty sex is not OK, it is putting a bandaid on a problem that is going to ruin the marriage. 

This is about selfishness and meeting the others needs. Yes there needs to be a middle ground. 
Communication, understanding and adult discussion are required between the couple. This is not a war to be won by one side, both sides need to win.

Duty sex would revolt me, I would not tolerate it just as I eventually stopped tolerating a sexless marriage.

Sure we don't all want to be at it like rabbits all the time but there are plenty of compromises. Even simple things such as saying to your man "you know what, I really am not into it tonight, how about I lie next to you and hold you while you DIY?"
Or put on some porn together and get in the mood. Or at the very least give your partner a raincheck that you honor.

No one owes or owns another person but if you truly loved them you would consider their needs and make the changes in yourself that are needed for a healthy sex life. Duty sex is not healthy. Find out why you don't want sex, it is the sex that is the problem or is it him?
Do you not love him anymore? Is he a lousy lover?
Talk and fix this stuff.

Conversely a partner that demands sex all the time, is a lousy lay and does not satisfy their partner is not considering the needs of the other.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

I am a long time lurker and finally had to say something. From what I read on here are that the husbands are not getting enough sex and when they do it isn't up to par. I am 38 years old and my drive has peaked since last year. I have been that LD wife and what she is saying is true. I saw a poster on here say his wife was getting shots to help with hormones and she was urinating in the bed. How humiliating for her but he still wanted her to get them so he could have his lovemaking. Why can't there be a compromise why does it always have to be the HD person's way. All I hear is they are boring but in another post him and his wife tie each other up. Lets keep it real and just say you will never be satisfied. I don't hear alot of men on here talking about how much they love there women. Just something to think about.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Not everyone is wired like a testosterone pumped man.
> 
> I am very attracted to my partner and I'm not constantly itching for sex. Isn't part of marriage accepting your partner for the way they are built?
> 
> *If your sex comes from horny and her sex comes from love, what is wrong with that*?


What is wrong with that is that it means you are not suited to a LTR.

My sex comes from horny and love. 
His sex comes from horny and love.
We are well suited. I have enough life experience to understand this.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Your 16 year old brother is not a man.
> 
> I really don't get the way some women think. Duty sex is not OK, it is putting a bandaid on a problem that is going to ruin the marriage.
> 
> ...


Now THIS I can agree with. This is perfectly rational. I just sometimes feel like ALL the pressure is on the less horny partner. Compromise is good. And I think only fair in a relationship.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> I understand there is an intimate side to sex but every time a man wants sex, there isn't emotion behind it. He's just good ol' fashioned horny, which is totally fine, but you can't get mad a woman for not being horny in the same way you are.
> 
> You poke her in the back with your morning wood and she says no.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Not being horny whenever your partner wants sex does not mean you are not suited to be in a relationship.
That's just.... stupid. I'm sorry.
And it doesn't even make a little sense.

If my husband is turned on, I don't magically become turned on because he is.
And the same is true for me. If I'm horny, my husband doesn't suddenly become aroused.

Just a couple of nights ago, I woke up from a sexy dream horny and ready to go.
Its 2am,my husband has to get up at 6. But I kinda wake him up, rub him enough to get him erect and have him f*ck me till I was, um, done. Then he went back to sleep, he didn't even orgasm or remember it the next morning lol.

That was totally out of love, duty, whatever. And I didn't pout and cry the next day because it didn't seem "into it". I was happy that he's "into me" enough to provide for me, even when he'snot particularly excited about doing it.



Holland said:


> What is wrong with that is that it means you are not suited to a LTR.
> 
> My sex comes from horny and love.
> His sex comes from horny and love.
> We are well suited. I have enough life experience to understand this.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

saracole said:


> :iagree:


If I ask my fiancé to do the dishes, he half ass does it and I usually have to go behind him and do it. 

But of course, he's gonna want sex that night for "helping" me and I'd be a huge ***** if I said no, cause he tried right? And you can't withhold sex over dishes, how petty right? He did his job.

But if I half assed sex with him that night, DEAR GOD find the divorce papers. I didn't do my "job" correctly. I seriously doubt that any two people are always gonna want sex at the same second, every single time for 30 plus years of marriage. 

So it's okay to half ass outside the bedroom but not in it. That's a theme I seem to see a lot....

 

Just an observation. You want your partner to 100 percent in bed all the time but are you 100 percent outside the bedroom all the time?

Of course not! No one is! We are all only human.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Now THIS I can agree with. This is perfectly rational. I just sometimes feel like ALL the pressure is on the less horny partner. Compromise is good. And I think only fair in a relationship.


I think the problem here LB is that the HD partner is not having their needs met = feelings of rejection, resentment, unworthiness, maybe anger, frustration etc.

The LD person is having their needs met by the very virtue of the fact that they don't have high needs when it comes to sex. So they are not feeling rejected, unworthy, anger and frustration.
They may well be feeling resentment though at even being asked or expected to have sex.

So here is the problem, two people that will never connect, love goes, like goes, relationship is ruined.

People either need to do the work to make changes to *themselves * or move on and get out of the marriage.
A marriage founded on bitterness and resentment is a waste of everyone's time.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Not being horny whenever your partner wants sex does not mean you are not suited to be in a relationship.
> That's just.... stupid. I'm sorry.
> And it doesn't even make a little sense.
> 
> ...


Commenting that what I said is stupid is just plain .... ignorant, sorry.

The comments I made were in reference to LB saying her sex comes from love, his from horny. If that is the case the two shall rarely meet.

I did not say you must be horny whenever your partner is, you are putting words into my mouth. 
I said my and my partners sex comes from both horny and love. It may be in any combo but we connect and have a healthy sex life.
If I am not horny and he is then I am able to get in the mood easily and visa versa. 
I would not engage in duty sex, lie back and think of England type of sex and would be insulted if my partner did this.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> I think the problem here LB is that the HD partner is not having their needs met = feelings of rejection, resentment, unworthiness, maybe anger, frustration etc.
> 
> The LD person is having their needs met by the very virtue of the fact that they don't have high needs when it comes to sex. So they are not feeling rejected, unworthy, anger and frustration.
> They may well be feeling resentment though at even being asked or expected to have sex.
> ...


I do agree with this but I think that, unless it's an extreme, sex is a bad reason to go forth with a marriage or to forgo a suitable partner.

Is it really worth it to dump someone who is suitable in every way who physically needs less sex? If they are still HAVING the sex, just aren't drooling over it?

Desire fades, looks fade. One day your **** won't work or your lady parts will be all dried up or whatever.

There are more important things in life.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

Holland said:


> I think the problem here LB is that the HD partner is not having their needs met = feelings of rejection, resentment, unworthiness, maybe anger, frustration etc.
> 
> The LD person is having their needs met by the very virtue of the fact that they don't have high needs when it comes to sex. So they are not feeling rejected, unworthy, anger and frustration.
> They may well be feeling resentment though at even being asked or expected to have sex.
> ...



I don't agree. A LD feels more than just resentment. They have fear of being booted, they don't feel truly loved, anger and also frustration. All I see on this board is if you are not getting what you want then leave and the big D word. It is thrown around like nothing. There has to be compromise on both ends not just the LD side. Because in the end you got married because you love the other person. I know I didn't get married for the soul person of sex.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I do agree with this but I think that, unless it's an extreme, sex is a bad reason to go forth with a marriage or to forgo a suitable partner.
> 
> Is it really worth it to dump someone who is suitable in every way who physically needs less sex? If they are still HAVING the sex, just aren't drooling over it?
> 
> ...


I think you are missing the point about the emotional side of sex, the intimacy. Yes there is plenty more to life than sex but if that life is filled with rejection from your spouse or duty sex then it is time to self preserve and move on.

You say sex for you comes from love, can you see that if you withdraw sex from a marriage that you are also taking away love?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> I think you are missing the point about the emotional side of sex, the intimacy. Yes there is plenty more to life than sex but if that life is filled with rejection from your spouse or duty sex then it is time to self preserve and move on.
> 
> You say sex for you comes from love, can you see that if you withdraw sex from a marriage that you are also taking away love?


I DO see that, that is why I don't withhold sex even though I could live with less than I am currently having. 

But if all the HD partner wanted was to feel love, they couldn't be complaining that their partner doesn't want to do it swinging from the ceiling lights. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

jaharthur said:


> Fixed it for ya.


Sorry if the OP hit too close to home. It was RIGHT as written the first time. SOME men are so comical!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

the point is if sex isn't her primary need, then you can't be mad at her when she isn't gagging for it but she is trying to fulfill your primary need for sex. whining is not attractive when you can't get what you want the way you want it. And that goes for both sides.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

saracole said:


> I don't agree. A LD feels more than just resentment. They have fear of being booted, they don't feel truly loved, anger and also frustration. All I see on this board is if you are not getting what you want then leave and the big D word. It is thrown around like nothing. There has to be compromise on both ends not just the LD side. Because in the end you got married because you love the other person. I know I didn't get married for the soul person of sex.


 I accept that the LD person may feel more than resentment but they are still getting their needs met ie being not to have much sex.

The HD is *not *getting their needs met.

An unbalanced relationship with eventually implode.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> I accept that the LD person may feel more than resentment but they are still getting their needs met ie being not to have much sex.
> 
> The HD is *not *getting their needs met.
> 
> An unbalanced relationship with eventually implode.



This is true. But also, if the LD partner is changing their behavior for the sake of their partner, the HD partner could at least bother to change their ATTITUDE for the sake of theirs. 

If I had sex only when I wanted PIV sex, I'd never have sex because I get *nothing* from it. I do it because he likes it, I can't change my anatomy. But I try, which I think is the most important bit of any relationship. Substantial effort.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Thanks for that Jaharthur, it was getting hard to comment due to the very broad generalisations of men OP had.


generalizations generally tend to be true. Men generally have more testosterone than women. That's a generalization ya? and a lot of women are generally low drive. does not make them Satan or bitter b/tch+s.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

Holland said:


> I accept that the LD person may feel more than resentment but they are still getting their needs met ie being not to have much sex.
> 
> The HD is *not *getting their needs met.
> 
> An unbalanced relationship with eventually implode.


How do you figure the LD is getting there needs met by not having much sex. They also have a need not to have the HD complain constantly or say they are bored and they want more action. Or the LD is giving the HD sex whenever they want out of love not lust and still the HD is saying needs are not met because it is duty sex. I know when I was LD my needs for alot of things were not being met. But did I look at my husband and say if you do not meet all of my needs I will divorce you. Of course not. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

saracole said:


> I don't agree. A LD feels more than just resentment. They have fear of being booted, they don't feel truly loved, anger and also frustration. All I see on this board is if you are not getting what you want then leave and the big D word. It is thrown around like nothing. There has to be compromise on both ends not just the LD side. Because in the end you got married because you love the other person. I know I didn't get married for the soul person of sex.


THANK YOU!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

saracole said:


> I am a long time lurker and finally had to say something. From what I read on here are that the husbands are not getting enough sex and when they do it isn't up to par. I am 38 years old and my drive has peaked since last year. I have been that LD wife and what she is saying is true. I saw a poster on here say his wife was getting shots to help with hormones and she was urinating in the bed. How humiliating for her but he still wanted her to get them so he could have his lovemaking. Why can't there be a compromise why does it always have to be the HD person's way. All I hear is they are boring but in another post him and his wife tie each other up. Lets keep it real and just say you will never be satisfied. I don't hear alot of men on here talking about how much they love there women. Just something to think about.


I would say in most marriages that sex is a issue things are going the LD partners way. I've been married over 13 years and have never been able to have enough sex. It's the only thing we really disagree on but it's all the time. So I ask when is it gonna be my way? Probably never in this relationship


----------



## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

Why O' Why does everyone have to be lumped into one category? If you have been around the board long *enough* then you know that every situation is different even if they have similar elements to it. 

Why is it so hard to see that when a man (or woman for that matter), vents about sex, they may actually have a valid reason? If you take the time to actually read the stories, you can tell the difference between a selfish man ranting about sex and a good husband who's needs aren't being fulfilled. 

The porn issue...whatever, many have said women like me will end up divorced or the husbands will lie about it because I don't use it blah, blah, blah... That issue is up for each individual couple and if you are with someone who agrees with you, don't worry about what other men say.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> I would say in most marriages that sex is a issue things are going the LD partners way. I've been married over 13 years and have never been able to have enough sex. It's the only thing we really disagree on but it's all the time. So I ask when is it gonna be my way? Probably never in this relationship


If that's really the only thing, the ONLY thing, meet Rosie Palm. "Till death to us part" isn't really meant to be optional. It sounds like she really loves you.

Also saying "My way" is turn off to most women.

FYI. Good luck.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This is true. But also, if the LD partner is changing their behavior for the sake of their partner, the HD partner could at least bother to change their ATTITUDE for the sake of theirs.
> 
> If I had sex only when I wanted PIV sex, I'd never have sex because I get *nothing* from it. I do it because he likes it, I can't change my anatomy. But I try, which I think is the most important bit of any relationship. Substantial effort.


I agree with you here LB but it is all very subtle. Like a pp said duty sex done with at least some enthusiasm is OKish. but this is never going to sustain a marriage long term.
And yes if a HD partner has a crappy attitude, demanding etc then that is bad, no one should be treated with disrespect.

There is still a huge disconnect though and trust me from experience that divorce can be the better option. Life is short, it needs to be lived happily. 

As for the PIV issue, most women do not O from PIV, I rarely do from PIV alone but OMG I love doing it for many reasons, mostly bc of the sounds he makes, the overwhelming closeness I feel. 
It sounds like there is something missing from the intimate side of your sex life.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> This is true. But also, if the LD partner is changing their behavior for the sake of their partner, the HD partner could at least bother to change their ATTITUDE for the sake of theirs.
> 
> If I had sex only when I wanted PIV sex, I'd never have sex because I get *nothing* from it. I do itp because he likes it, I can't change my anatomy. But I try, which I think is the most important bit of any relationship. Substantial effort.


LB, I am on the same boat. But if you don't want it how & when they want it, you're not a good wife even if you do it w/ enthusiasm. Talk about the planets aligning...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

saracole said:


> *How do you figure the LD is getting there needs met by not having much sex.* They also have a need not to have the HD complain constantly or say they are bored and they want more action. Or the LD is giving the HD sex whenever they want out of love not lust and still the HD is saying needs are not met because it is duty sex. I know when I was LD my needs for alot of things were not being met. But did I look at my husband and say if you do not meet all of my needs I will divorce you. Of course not. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.


Like I said earlier, by the very virtue of the fact that their needs are so low.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I realize sex isn't the reason most get married but is important to many to keep the a bond, the lack of sex or pressure of more sex than wanted will create friction.
Every relationship is so individual though it's not really fair to say hd need's to be more understanding, low drive need's to be more understanding ect, both may have valid points.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> I agree with you here LB but it is all very subtle. Like a pp said duty sex done with at least some enthusiasm is OKish. but this is never going to sustain a marriage long term.
> And yes if a HD partner has a crappy attitude, demanding etc then that is bad, no one should be treated with disrespect.
> 
> There is still a huge disconnect though and trust me from experience that divorce can be the better option. Life is short, it needs to be lived happily.
> ...


I feel intimacy in other ways. He feels it via sex. So I have sex with him and he holds me.

It's only fair. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate sex. But sex with someone I didn't love would be ****ing terrible for me and then, yes, I would hate it.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> I would say in most marriages that sex is a issue things are going the LD partners way. I've been married over 13 years and have never been able to have enough sex. It's the only thing we really disagree on but it's all the time. So I ask when is it gonna be my way? Probably never in this relationship



So lets say your spouse started giving you more sex. Then it is going your way next we will hear that it still isn't good enough. You want more spice in the bedroom she isn't showing enough initiative. That is the pattern I see in most of these post. Most will never be happy or satisfied. So both HD and LD have to meet in the middle.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

The fact is men are considered pigs if we get mad are talk about divorce because of the lack of sex, but what if I told my wife I think I just have a low work drive. If I just stop working, doing anything around the house, paying the bills and all that stuff. She would leave and everybody in town would talk about what a piece of SH!T I was. Sounds like a double standard to me. If I have to date rosie palm all the time then I probably don't need to be married.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

honeysuckle rose said:


> LB, I am on the same boat. But if you don't want it how & when they want it, you're not a good wife even if you do it w/ enthusiasm. Talk about the planets aligning...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:

You should message me sometimes.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Having one's sex drive come from love, and the other from lust, shouldn't be an issue and it certainly doesn't mean that the "sex from love" partner shouldn't be in a relationship. That's really stupid, it is. If my husband wants a quickie and I accomodate out of love and he "take's me" out of lust, it doesn't mean we should now get a divorce because I didn't get aroused during the ten minutes of sex lol.

A woman not being able to get in the mood easily but accomadating her husband and trying to please him should not betold it's not good enough because she didn't suddenly become the magical sex fairy dripping with lust.

And what makes it even worse is that many (most?) men are not adequate lovers,yet they have al these demands.



Holland said:


> Commenting that what I said is stupid is just plain .... ignorant, sorry.
> 
> The comments I made were in reference to LB saying her sex comes from love, his from horny. If that is the case the two shall rarely meet.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

saracole said:


> There has to be compromise on both ends not just the LD side.


So living with constant rejection for 10 years isn't enough compromise on my side? You bring up that I have posted on other threads that she lets me tie her up sometimes. But if she's just going through the motions how am I supposed to be satisfied with that? At what point does the compromise start leaning my way? From what I can see, 100% of the "compromise" is me ignoring her very real actions and choosing to believe her words. So when I stop believing her words all of a sudden I'm the one not compromising?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> The fact is men are considered pigs if we get mad are talk about divorce because of the lack of sex, but what if I told my wife I think I just have a low work drive. If I just stop working, doing anything around the house, paying the bills and all that stuff. She would leave and everybody in town would talk about what a piece of SH!T I was. Sounds like a double standard to me. If I have to date rosie palm all the time then I probably don't need to be married.


It is a double standard. We all have to live with them, women and men. To be honest, you got the longer end of the stick in the double standard department. Also, her vagina isn't your personal de-hornify machine, so your right hand isn't a bad thing IN MODERATION, I agree there should be a compromise. "My way" isn't a compromise. 

If someone asked you why you got divorced and you said "I wasn't getting enough sex" people would look at you like you were shallow.

I'm not saying you are but I really don't think anyone wants to be the ******* who lists that as their reason for divorce from a woman who is otherwise a very good wife.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So living with constant rejection for 10 years isn't enough compromise on my side? You bring up that I have posted on other threads that she lets me tie her up sometimes. But if she's just going through the motions how am I supposed to be satisfied with that? At what point does the compromise start leaning my way? From what I can see, 100% of the "compromise" is me ignoring her very real actions and choosing to believe her words. So when I stop believing her words all of a sudden I'm the one not compromising?


So she lets you tie her up because you want to do it but she doesn't orgasm like the women in the cheap pornos when you do it?

Are you serious?

This sounds a lot less about intimacy and more about you just wanting kinky dinky sexy that she's so so on.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Actually she's the one who asks to be tied up. She does it because she thinks it makes her look like she's into having sex with me. I'm not satisfied because I can see that she's just doing it to make herself look that way.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

aribabe said:


> having one's sex drive come from love, and the other from lust, shouldn't be an issue and it certainly doesn't mean that the "sex from love" partner shouldn't be in a relationship. That's really stupid, it is. If my husband wants a quickie and i accomodate out of love and he "take's me" out of lust, it doesn't mean we should now get a divorce because i didn't get aroused during the ten minutes of sex lol.
> 
> A woman not being able to get in the mood easily but accomadating her husband and trying to please him should not betold it's not good enough because she didn't suddenly become the magical sex fairy dripping with lust.
> 
> ...


thank you.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually she's the one who asks to be tied up. She does it because she thinks it makes her look like she's into having sex with me. I'm not satisfied because I can see that she's just doing it to make herself look that way.


She is your wife. I mean, do you not remember why you married her?

She is making love to you.

But you want her to be writhing around in pleasure even if she isn't feel pleasure?

You want her to fake it? Or you want her to be "honest and true to herself" and close her legs again?


Sounds like none of it will make you happy.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So living with constant rejection for 10 years isn't enough compromise on my side? You bring up that I have posted on other threads that she lets me tie her up sometimes. But if she's just going through the motions how am I supposed to be satisfied with that? At what point does the compromise start leaning my way? From what I can see, 100% of the "compromise" is me ignoring her very real actions and choosing to believe her words. So when I stop believing her words all of a sudden I'm the one not compromising?


I have followed alot of your threads because you remind me of my husband. Almost to a T. How do you know all of the time she is just going through the motions. From your post I see she loves you and is in to you. It seems as though she also see's that you are constantly wanting more more more and isn't living up to what you want. How many times have you thrown out the D word to her because of this?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

saracole said:


> I have followed alot of your threads because you remind me of my husband. Almost to a T. How do you know all of the time she is just going through the motions. From your post I see she loves you and is in to you. It seems as though she also see's that you are constantly wanting more more more and isn't living up to what you want. How many times have you thrown out the D word to her because of this?


I saw a guy on here say "We have sex 3 times I week but she won't try A, B, C so my needs aren't being met because I'm bored and I want to do her in the *******"

Right, these are the "emotional intimacy" needs I hear so much about.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> She is your wife. I mean, do you not remember why you married her?
> 
> She is making love to you.
> 
> ...


You don't get it at all. I don't want any of those things. I don't want her to fake writhing around in pleasure. I want her to actually feel pleasure with me. If she doesn't feel pleasure with me, if she isn't attracted to me, then why is she with me? I don't want her to fake it. I don't want her to HAVE to fake it.

The only think that will make me happy is her GENUINELY wanting to be with me. Not faking it out of love, not going through the motions. Don't I deserve to have someone who is genuinely attracted to me sexually?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually she's the one who asks to be tied up. She does it because she thinks it makes her look like she's into having sex with me. I'm not satisfied because I can see that she's just doing it to make herself look that way.


You are making your wife jump through hoops just to convince you that she is into you? What would convince you that she was?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

saracole said:


> I have followed alot of your threads because you remind me of my husband. Almost to a T. How do you know all of the time she is just going through the motions. From your post I see she loves you and is in to you. It seems as though she also see's that you are constantly wanting more more more and isn't living up to what you want. How many times have you thrown out the D word to her because of this?


I've never once thrown out the D word to her. Not once in 20 years.

This morning I told her I wasn't happy and she said (for the first time ever) it sounds like you're thinking about leaving. I told her that I don't want to leave, but that I do need to feel loved. That's the closest I've ever come to a divorce talk....which isn't really close in my opinion. So I've been at this for the long haul. I don't throw this stuff out there lightly.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It is a double standard. We all have to live with them, women and men. To be honest, you got the longer end of the stick in the double standard department. Also, her vagina isn't your personal de-hornify machine, so your right hand isn't a bad thing IN MODERATION, I agree there should be a compromise. "My way" isn't a compromise.
> 
> If someone asked you why you got divorced and you said "I wasn't getting enough sex" people would look at you like you were shallow.
> 
> I'm not saying you are but I really don't think anyone wants to be the ******* who lists that as their reason for divorce from a woman who is otherwise a very good wife.


Well I feel like it's always been her way and she is basically unwilling to change or do any long term compromise. I'll probably never know what it is like to be LD, so I don't know how that feels. My wife will probably never know how it fees to be HD and feel rejected and unwanted and unattractive it is a hearbreaker and a sould crusher to me. I love my wife very much and I take my vows very seriously. The thing is when there is one thing that you can't have a compromise on and you can't have happiness and peace about I think at some point it may be enouh to push you over the top. I should not have to lie in my bed with my wife and feel alone.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Having one's sex drive come from love, and the other from lust, shouldn't be an issue and it certainly doesn't mean that the "sex from love" partner shouldn't be in a relationship. That's really stupid, it is. If my husband wants a quickie and I accomodate out of love and he "take's me" out of lust, it doesn't mean we should now get a divorce because I didn't get aroused during the ten minutes of sex lol.
> 
> A woman not being able to get in the mood easily but accomadating her husband and trying to please him should not betold it's not good enough because she didn't suddenly become the magical sex fairy dripping with lust.
> 
> ...


I am not sure if you don't understand what I am saying so will have to leave it there.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You don't get it at all. I don't want any of those things. I don't want her to fake writhing around in pleasure. I want her to actually feel pleasure with me. If she doesn't feel pleasure with me, if she isn't attracted to me, then why is she with me? I don't want her to fake it. I don't want her to HAVE to fake it.
> 
> The only think that will make me happy is her GENUINELY wanting to be with me. Not faking it out of love, not going through the motions. Don't I deserve to have someone who is genuinely attracted to me sexually?


SEXUAL ATTRACTION and wanting SEX are really not exclusive.

If you knew there was 1/20 chance of you orgasming every time you went into sex, would you need to feel that "closeness" as often?

LOVING YOU and wanting your **** inside her all the time are so not mutually exclusive.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> Well I feel like it's always been her way and she is basically unwilling to change or do any long term compromise. I'll probably never know what it is like to be LD, so I don't know how that feels. My wife will probably never know how it fees to be HD and feel rejected and unwanted and unattractive it is a hearbreaker and a sould crusher to me. I love my wife very much and I take my vows very seriously. The thing is when there is one thing that you can't have a compromise on and you can't have happiness and peace about I think at some point it may be enouh to push you over the top. I should not have to lie in my bed with my wife and feel alone.



You think your wife doesn't love you because she doesn't physically desire sex with you.

Only 30 percent of women enjoy sex as much as men do, from an orgasm stand point.

It has nothing to do with love for her, most likely. 

She should make an effort yes, but having sex when you don't want to is a really crap feeling, just like rejection is to you. 

If your wife wanted to go see a crappy movie at 3am and you said no, does it mean you don't love her? For her, sex may be like that crappy movie. I know this is hard on the male ego but most women are NOT built to NEED sex. But if she loves you she should try to make sure you don't feel alone...can she do that with something other than her vagina? I mean clearly, band aid on a bullet hole but still. It might help you.

It's a hard situation. Good luck, you seem like a truly decent guy.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

techmom said:


> You are making your wife jump through hoops just to convince you that she is into you? What would convince you that she was?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What would convince me? How about allowing me to kiss her during sex? How about allowing me to go down on her? How about allowing me to put my hand on her hip or her face without complaining that it tickles or that touching her face might lead to zits? I'm not asking to do her in the butt. I'm asking to feel an intimate connection. Frankly she's been trying to act like a sperm receptacle and that just doesn't work for me....and for the last couple months I've had a hell of a time even staying hard. Sure I suppose I could go get a prescription, but why should I? Especially when her putting her tongue in my mouth once in a while with some enthusiasm would do the trick just fine.

No jumping through hoops required. Just kiss me like you mean it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> SEXUAL ATTRACTION and wanting SEX are really not exclusive.
> 
> If you knew there was 1/20 chance of you orgasming every time you went into sex, would you need to feel that "closeness" as often?
> 
> LOVING YOU and wanting your **** inside her all the time are so not mutually exclusive.


I'm not sure what your point is. My wife orgasms almost every time we have sex.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You think your wife doesn't love you because she doesn't physically desire sex with you.
> 
> Only 30 percent of women enjoy sex as much as men do, from an orgasm stand point.
> 
> ...


That's the problem is being very sexual is just not who she is as a person and you can't fake that. I can't expect her to be someone she isn't either but should I have to be someone I'm not? I think of myself as a decent guy and I've told my wife I thought I was the best husband in the world and I don't think I could find a better wife for me. It's just frustrating. Thanks for the good wishes


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. My wife orgasms almost every time we have sex.


She might well but she probably doesn't crave an orgasm like you do.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What would convince me? How about allowing me to kiss her during sex? How about allowing me to go down on her? How about allowing me to put my hand on her hip or her face without complaining that it tickles or that touching her face might lead to zits? I'm not asking to do her in the butt. I'm asking to feel an intimate connection. Frankly she's been trying to act like a sperm receptacle and that just doesn't work for me....and for the last couple months I've had a hell of a time even staying hard. Sure I suppose I could go get a prescription, but why should I? Especially when her putting her tongue in my mouth once in a while with some enthusiasm would do the trick just fine.
> 
> No jumping through hoops required. Just kiss me like you mean it.



Have you asked her why she won't let you go down or why she will not kiss during sex. I bet there is a reason why and she doesn't want to hurt your feelings.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> That's the problem is being very sexual is just not who she is as a person and you can't fake that. I can't expect her to be someone she isn't either but should I have to be someone I'm not? I think of myself as a decent guy and I've told my wife I thought I was the best husband in the world and I don't think I could find a better wife for me. It's just frustrating. Thanks for the good wishes


For what it's worth, if I were your wife, I'd make an effort for you sweetie.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> She might well but she probably doesn't crave an orgasm like you do.


Crave an orgasm? Have you read anything I wrote on this thread at all? I can have an orgasm anytime I want. I crave intimacy and affection. I crave having a wife who wants me. I crave giving HER an orgasm.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Crave an orgasm? Have you read anything I wrote on this thread at all? I can have an orgasm anytime I want. I crave intimacy and affection. I crave having a wife who wants me. I crave giving HER an orgasm.



Sex and love are intertwined for you.

They might well be separate for her.

I hope it works out for you and I respect you for not being an ******* and leaving her at the first sign of sexual trouble.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> For what it's worth, if I were your wife, I'd make an effort for you sweetie.


Thank you very much for the kind words. :smthumbup:


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol

Oh my gosh
This just really tickled me pink
:rofl:

I don't if it's because I've had a couple of glasses of wine,
But that was really funny saracole :rofl:



saracole said:


> Have you asked her why she won't let you go down or why she will not kiss during sex. I bet there is a reason why and she doesn't want to hurt your feelings.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> Thank you very much for the kind words. :smthumbup:


My fiancé gets daily sex, though I get no physical pleasure from it.

Now, am I gonna do that forever? Um, hell no. 

But I'll always try for his sake and I hope he appreciates that and doesn't start *****ing about me on forums one day


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

whatever. When you have no actual argument then you can always fall back on insulting the person you're talking with. It's a pretty weak tactic. For the record, my teeth and breath are fine. She complains that my 5 o'clock shadow irritates her skin, which is complete bull**** since there are billions of women kissing men with hair on their face every day.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> I feel intimacy in other ways. He feels it via sex. So I have sex with him and he holds me.
> 
> It's only fair.
> 
> I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate sex. But sex with someone I didn't love would be ****ing terrible for me and then, yes, I would hate it.


I have grown to hate sex. I have orgasms with him, but that doesn't make me want to run and do it again as soon as possible. I have sex because HE wants/needs it. That's HIS Love Language, not mine. MY Love Languages aren't being met and the problem is, I don't think he CAN meet my need for acts of service and conversation. We don't feel like a united front or a team because we have opposing views on almost everything in the solar system. 

Having sex when you don't want it/feel like it/like it, isn't a sin and isn't pity/duty sex, if done with love and actively (ie don't lie there like a corpse).

I feel NOTHING BUT A BROOM POKING ME IN THE GROIN, but it makes him happy. Period. I'm not a horrible person.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

LittleBird, 

Why are you having sex daily if you get absolutely no pleasure from it?

Is it him?
Or you?

That's allowing the sex not to be pleasurable for you?



LittleBird said:


> My fiancé gets daily sex, though I get no physical pleasure from it.
> 
> Now, am I gonna do that forever? Um, hell no.
> 
> But I'll always try for his sake and I hope he appreciates that and doesn't start *****ing about me on forums one day


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> whatever. When you have no actual argument then you can always fall back on insulting the person you're talking with. It's a pretty weak tactic. For the record, my teeth and breath are fine. She complains that my 5 o'clock shadow irritates her skin, which is complete bull**** since there are billions of women kissing men with hair on their face every day.


Unbelievable. Her complaint about your beard is invalid because BILLIONS OF OTHER WOMEN IN THE WORLD kiss men with bears? Are you serious?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> whatever. When you have no actual argument then you can always fall back on insulting the person you're talking with. It's a pretty weak tactic. For the record, my teeth and breath are fine. She complains that my 5 o'clock shadow irritates her skin, which is complete bull**** since there are billions of women kissing men with hair on their face every day.


May I ask why you think that she married you/is married to you?

Are you able to feel any love from her (outside of the sexual part)?


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

homebuilder said:


> The fact is men are considered pigs if we get mad are talk about divorce because of the lack of sex, but what if I told my wife I think I just have a low work drive. If I just stop working, doing anything around the house, paying the bills and all that stuff. She would leave and everybody in town would talk about what a piece of SH!T I was. Sounds like a double standard to me. If I have to date rosie palm all the time then I probably don't need to be married.



Which is why it's always a SUPERB idea for women to have their own money and means. NEVER depend on someone else to cover your nut (excuse my French )


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

aribabe said:


> LittleBird,
> 
> Why are you having sex daily if you get absolutely no pleasure from it?
> 
> ...


Ari, 

I was abused as child, I just dislike penetration. It's not his fault.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> You should message me sometimes.


Yes!!! I will


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

.
*
And what makes it even worse is that many (most?) men are not adequate lovers,yet they have al these demands.*


Touche'! Agree w/ everything you said. And for the record, porn makes most /many/some men LOUSY lovers because there is more to sex than jackhammer and pile driver. Thank you.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't have a beard. I shave every day. Kissing was fine for over a decade and then it stops. So yes, I feel like her not wanting to kiss has nothing to do with hair and everything to do with her not being attracted to me.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

honeysuckle rose said:


> I, too, have grown to hate sex. I have orgasms with him, but that doesn't make me want to run and do it again as soon as possible. I have sex because HE wants/needs it. That's HIS Love Language, not mine. MY Love Languages aren't being met and the problem is, I don't think he CAN meet my need for acts of service and conversation. We don't feel like a united front or a team because we have opposing views on almost everything in the solar system.
> 
> Having sex when you don't want it/feel like it/like it, isn't a sin and isn't pity/duty sex, if done with love and actively (ie don't lie there like a corpse).
> 
> I feel NOTHING BUT A BROOM POKING ME IN THE GROIN, but it makes him happy. Period. I'm not a horrible person.


LMFAO a broom.

:rofl:

:rofl:


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My fiancé gets daily sex, though I get no physical pleasure from it.
> 
> Now, am I gonna do that forever? Um, hell no.
> 
> But I'll always try for his sake and I hope he appreciates that and doesn't start *****ing about me on forums one day


Best of luck to you and he should appreciate it very much.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I understand that...

I'm sorry
(Hug)

Do you think you two can come to a compromise where you don't have to do it everyday, and do non penetrative things instead.
I'd start feeling awfully resentful if I was having sex (intercourse) everyday and got no pleasure from it.



LittleBird said:


> Ari,
> 
> I was abused as child, I just dislike penetration. It's not his fault.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

honeysuckle rose said:


> .
> *
> And what makes it even worse is that many (most?) men are not adequate lovers,yet they have al these demands.*
> 
> ...


And now women are expected to actually behave like that!

News flash: those women are screaming for what they are gonna buy with all that MONEY. 

:rofl:


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> May I ask why you think that she married you/is married to you?
> 
> Are you able to feel any love from her (outside of the sexual part)?


I just don't know anymore. I think I feel love from her. It always sticks in my mind that before we were married I was starting college and her grandmother told her I was a "good investment". We laughed about it back then, but now 20 years later I make 10 times what she does. So ya it does make me wonder.

Also, before we were married we lived together. I was in the service. The plan was that when I got out of the service I would be moving back home, which implied that we would break up. When I asked her to marry me, I think in the back of her head she knew that the only reason I was staying in Washington was because we would be a married couple. If we didn't get married I would have moved home.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually she's the one who asks to be tied up. She does it because she thinks it makes her look like she's into having sex with me. I'm not satisfied because I can see that she's just doing it to make herself look that way.


As I have been rightly called out on another thread, TALK TO HER ABOUT IT. REALLY manning up would be approaching her in a loving way to find out what WOULD make her "hot" for you again. If she never was, then...

I WAS "hot" for my guy. Then his true self (ie the one w/ no sense of boundaries, or propriety, or common sense) came out and turned me OFF emotionally and physically. Same thing methinks for a woman (insert groans for generalization!).

Relationships are too difficult for the pay off, it seems...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

aribabe said:


> I understand that...
> 
> I'm sorry
> (Hug)
> ...


Thank you for the huggles mama bear  

Well, to be honest, everything ends up leading to sex. I've tried (subtly) to avoid daily sex. 

But I always touch him to let him know I love him. Problem is one kiss and he's hard as a rock in a blizzard. 

I even tried blowing him and that worked for about an hour before he came looking for me for full blown sex. 

It wouldn't be as bad if he bothered to appreciate the oh, I don't know, 3 million things I do for him because he can't even match his own socks


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> I saw a guy on here say "We have sex 3 times I week but she won't try A, B, C so my needs aren't being met because I'm bored and I want to do her in the *******"
> 
> Right, these are the "emotional intimacy" needs I hear so much about.


OMG!!! I wanna hug you so bad right now!!!  All the legs in the air, knees behind your ears contortions and fluid all over the place...sorry, that has ZERO to do w/ love and a LOT to do w/ porn fantasies. He is always throwing me around like a rag doll. Yes, he asks if I'm ok, but never 'Do you like this?' If I told the truth, I'd be a b!t*h w/ a capital B.

You just can't please some PEOPLE.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I just don't know anymore. I think I feel love from her. It always sticks in my mind that before we were married I was starting college and her grandmother told her I was a "good investment". We laughed about it back then, but now 20 years later I make 10 times what she does. So ya it does make me wonder.
> 
> Also, before we were married we lived together. I was in the service. The plan was that when I got out of the service I would be moving back home, which implied that we would break up. When I asked her to marry me, I think in the back of her head she knew that the only reason I was staying in Washington was because we would be a married couple. If we didn't get married I would have moved home.


I'm sorry you feel that way.

It is good to see the emotion behind the "not enough sex" thing. Maybe you can understand why just hearing that can be hard for a lot of people, it sounds a little pig like on it's own. 

Well, dear, I do think she loves you judging my some of your posts. If she truly wasn't attracted to you but was sexual, I think she'd have had an affair or left you and taken half your money. 

It seems like maybe she just doesn't like sex for the sex itself...I know you've already talked to her but maybe counseling?


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Amen to that!
Don't even get me started on men who like to do porn moves in bed.

They want their wives tied up, swinging from the ceiling and screaming like a banshee...
And they don't know how to give proper oral to an ice cream cone

Piledriving away, faces just beet red and couldn't find their wives "hot spots" if she gave them a manual.
Yet she's expected to always be aroused and at the ready...


Porn make's men great pornstars... and terrible lovers.
That's it.


honeysuckle rose said:


> .
> *
> And what makes it even worse is that many (most?) men are not adequate lovers,yet they have al these demands.*
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You don't get it at all. I don't want any of those things. I don't want her to fake writhing around in pleasure. I want her to actually feel pleasure with me. If she doesn't feel pleasure with me, if she isn't attracted to me, then why is she with me? I don't want her to fake it. I don't want her to HAVE to fake it.
> 
> The only think that will make me happy is her GENUINELY wanting to be with me. Not faking it out of love, not going through the motions. Don't I deserve to have someone who is genuinely attracted to me sexually?


WANTING TO BE WITH YOU DOESN'T MEAN WANTING TO RIP YOUR CLOTHES OFF AND SIT ON YOUR FACE! DON'T YOU GET IT!? I want to be w/ mine, but I don't equate love and sex. HE does. So, *I* do it. Not begrudgingly and I do have Os. But, I am not gagging to do it again and again and again in one day (or even week). My body has changed and being IN this relationship has changed ME -- emotionally. 

Fair enough, I don't trust him with my heart. But, I am trying. I get NOTHING from sex w/ him. He is more pleasant to be around and THAT makes me happy. But the act itself? Those days are gone.

Perhaps your wife has a hormone issue, or built up resentment like I do? Surely MC would help hash something out...


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

I've told my wife we don't always have to have sex we can do other things. I'm not hard to please, just something intimate.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

aribabe said:


> Amen to that!
> Don't even get me started on men who like to do porn moves in bed.
> 
> They want their wives tied up, swinging from the ceiling and screaming like a banshee...
> ...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> I've told my wife we don't always have to have sex we can do other things. I'm not hard to please, just something intimate.


You should've married me.

Then again, I'm a 20 year old model and I know NO MAN wants that :lol:


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

homebuilder said:


> I've told my wife we don't always have to have sex we can do other things. I'm not hard to please, just something intimate.


You sound like a really sweet man. And that's a GOOD thing! I am sorry for your situation (hugs).


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I just don't know anymore. I think I feel love from her. It always sticks in my mind that before we were married I was starting college and her grandmother told her I was a "good investment". We laughed about it back then, but now 20 years later I make 10 times what she does. So ya it does make me wonder.
> 
> Also, before we were married we lived together. I was in the service. The plan was that when I got out of the service I would be moving back home, which implied that we would break up. When I asked her to marry me, I think in the back of her head she knew that the only reason I was staying in Washington was because we would be a married couple. If we didn't get married I would have moved home.


Sounds like you are trying to solve your insecurities through sex, which will never work. You will always be tense, looking for this and that in her expression or what she does (kissing) that will reassure you that she loves you. You will always be left unsatisfied and unhappy. Sex will be a turnoff, that is probably why you are not feeling satisfied with it anymore like you stated in your other thread. Thing is, she has her own reasons why she does not want to do the kissing and oral that you like to do.

One thing that turns women off is when their man is looking to be reassured of their own value through sex. The key is to find value within yourself


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

I've always prided myself on being a good person because it's the right thing to do. I do my share of the chores always have I can't stand a dirty house and I make my share of the messes so I clean up my share. I don't like porn sex just not me if I want to see that I can watch a video. I want my wife involved and enjoying and if she not up for it I'm happy with other things like HJ of BJ. Even watching me, and it's the lack of those things that are frustrating. I know she will never want PIV as much as me but help me out with some other things a couple times a week please.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> I've always prided myself on being a good person because it's the right thing to do. I do my share of the chores always have I can't stand a dirty house and I make my share of the messes so I clean up my share. I don't like porn sex just not me if I want to see that I can watch a video. I want my wife involved and enjoying and if she not up for it I'm happy with other things like HJ of BJ. Even watching me, and it's the lack of those things that are frustrating. I know she will never want PIV as much as me but help me out with some other things a couple times a week please.


My fiancé really wanted to watch me play with myself. I wasn't comfortable with it but I let him do it anyway. 

I honestly think she may just not enjoy sexual activity very much. 

When I'm not aroused, the idea of touching a penis is pretty gross.


----------



## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

The problem for LD people is when HD people make us feel like we have to "perform." We have to do HJs, BJs, let them c*m on you, deep throat ENTHUSIASTICALLY and they way THEY want it, or it's no good. Then it starts to feel like technical sex. It's a turn off. That's how I feel, among other things. There is no feeling of connection or love for me when he is adamant that we HAVE to have oral sex EVERY time we have sex. Or he has to slap my butt and talk dirty. It just feels weird and dumb, frankly.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> I have grown to hate sex. I have orgasms with him, but that doesn't make me want to run and do it again as soon as possible. I have sex because HE wants/needs it. That's HIS Love Language, not mine. MY Love Languages aren't being met and the problem is, I don't think he CAN meet my need for acts of service and conversation. We don't feel like a united front or a team because we have opposing views on almost everything in the solar system.
> 
> Having sex when you don't want it/feel like it/like it, isn't a sin and isn't pity/duty sex, if done with love and actively (ie don't lie there like a corpse).
> 
> I feel NOTHING BUT A BROOM POKING ME IN THE GROIN, but it makes him happy. Period. I'm not a horrible person.


No one said you were a horrible person. But being a martyr is not serving you well, you don't like your DH, you don't like sex, your marriage is not good, why stay and perpetuate the misery?
Duty sex is not going to fix anything.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My fiancé gets daily sex, though I get no physical pleasure from it.
> 
> Now, am I gonna do that forever? Um, hell no.
> 
> But I'll always try for his sake and I hope he appreciates that and doesn't start *****ing about me on forums one day


Have you told him you don't like sex and that the days of duty sex are numbered?
If not then you are deceiving him and do not love him.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> The problem for LD people is when HD people make us feel like we have to "perform." We have to do HJs, BJs, let them c*m on you, deep throat ENTHUSIASTICALLY and they way THEY want it, or it's no good. Then it starts to feel like technical sex. It's a turn off. That's how I feel, among other things. There is no feeling of connection or love for me when he is adamant that we HAVE to have oral sex EVERY time we have sex. Or he has to slap my butt and talk dirty. It just feels weird and dumb, frankly.


This is a problem in your marriage that you have to solve. Stereotyping men and women will not solve you deep seated issues.

Some serious misunderstandings here:
Where is the proof that only 30% of women like/crave orgasms as men do?

It is not true that porn makes men bad lovers, it may make some men bad lovers but it also helps some men be better lovers.
I have had bad lovers that were not into porn.

There are plenty of women that enjoy sex and do like to get more than vanilla. Please do not make out that it is men that love sex and that women are not that into it. This is a huge misconception.
Some people do not like sex, some people do, it is not gender based.

If you do not like sex and are in a crappy relationship then have the guts to get out.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Have you told him you don't like sex and that the days of duty sex are numbered?
> If not then you are deceiving him and do not love him.


It is NOT duty sex, Holland, it really isn't. 

I will never become a slave to duty sex.

I like that he likes it. They day I really don't feel like doing it, I'll let him know.

Plus I do orgasm during foreplay.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It is NOT duty sex, Holland, it really isn't.
> 
> I will never become a slave to duty sex.
> 
> ...


OK but have you actually told him that you get no pleasure from it and that one day you will stop doing it? Sorry I may have missed if you said so here.

The other thing is that daily sex can become unrealistic when you are in the child rearing stage of marriage. It would be good if you can discuss this well before having kids. 
If you do not want daily sex then you really need to talk about this now before you marry the guy.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> OK but have you actually told him that you get no pleasure from it and that one day you will stop doing it? Sorry I may have missed if you said so here.
> 
> The other thing is that daily sex can become unrealistic when you are in the child rearing stage of marriage. It would be good if you can discuss this well before having kids.
> If you do not want daily sex then you really need to talk about this now before you marry the guy.


This is very true.

Well, I was hoping he'd just slow down with age. He's 20, he's in his prime. I'm tying him down to monogamy the least I can do is **** him, right? That seems to be the theme. Lol. 

I hope once the kids are born I can catch a break.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

My wife and I struggled with the HD/LD thing for decades, and then it just kind of clicked...we found a balance that works.

In our case there were some very specific issues to talk through, and one of them was a commitment to accept each other as we are sexually and find the pleasures we can share.

Ironically, my sexual appetite has reduced with age, yet we are now having the most sexual activity of our lives.

And definitely it's much nicer for both of us to not be fighting, overtly or covertly, over this stuff.

As an aside, from what I read, I am average. She married me for me, not for my skill in bed. How could I want my wife to be begging for it....and then not be surprised when she leaves me for someone who is a better sexual athlete? Be careful what you wish for....


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> This is very true.
> 
> Well, I was hoping he'd just slow down with age. He's 20, he's in his prime. I'm tying him down to monogamy the least I can do is **** him, right? That seems to be the theme. Lol.


example of 'bait'



> I hope once the kids are born I can catch a break.


example of 'switch'

Thank you for so eloquently explaining the concept of bait and switch from a female perspective. *standing bow of gratitude*


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> example of 'bait'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm still gonna **** him just not every damn day. 

If he finds that unreasonable, he's not worth marrying.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> I'm still gonna **** him just not every damn day.
> 
> If he finds that unreasonable, he's not worth marrying.


Excellent. Just mention this _before marriage_ to your boyfriend, whom you are trying to persuade into a monogamy, that you may give him 'duty sex' daily now, but after the marriage, you will not be giving him daily sex again (not every 'damn day')

If he refuses, yea, he is 'not worth marrying'.

If you are not telling _now_, but suddenly not giving him daily sex _afterwards_, (after marrying him) I will not be surprised if your husband suddenly feels like a victim of 'bait and switch'.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Excellent. Just mention this _before marriage_ to your boyfriend, whom you are trying to persuade into a monogamy, that you may give him 'duty sex' daily now, but after the marriage, you will not be giving him daily sex again (not every 'damn day')
> 
> If he refuses, yea, he is 'not worth marrying'.
> 
> If you are not telling _now_, but suddenly not giving him daily sex _afterwards_, (after marrying him) I will not be surprised if your husband suddenly feels like a victim of 'bait and switch'.


I shouldn't have to spell it out that daily sex is NOT sustainable. 

And FYI, he knows my history. He knows I'm a sexual roller coaster.


----------



## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

honeysuckle rose said:


> I have grown to hate sex. I have orgasms with him, but that doesn't make me want to run and do it again as soon as possible. I have sex because HE wants/needs it. That's HIS Love Language, not mine. MY Love Languages aren't being met and the problem is, I don't think he CAN meet my need for acts of service and conversation. We don't feel like a united front or a team because we have opposing views on almost everything in the solar system.
> 
> Having sex when you don't want it/feel like it/like it, isn't a sin and isn't pity/duty sex, if done with love and actively (ie don't lie there like a corpse).
> 
> I feel NOTHING BUT A BROOM POKING ME IN THE GROIN, but it makes him happy. Period. I'm not a horrible person.


I have to ask this. Then why are YOU married? It sounds to me as though your needs are not getting met. If that is the case then I have the same empathy for you that I do for those of use that crave sex/intimacy from our LD partners...


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This is very true.
> 
> *Well, I was hoping he'd just slow down with age. He's 20, he's in his prime.* I'm tying him down to monogamy the least I can do is **** him, right? That seems to be the theme. Lol.
> 
> I hope once the kids are born I can catch a break.


My partner is in his 50's and we have sex daily, twice some days. Honestly you need to talk to your guy openly or as *john_lord_b3* says you are just doing a bait and switch, wrong on so many levels.

It is intriguing though to read posts from a person that knows she is going to do a bait/switch, I had no idea it was such a premeditated thing.


----------



## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

honeysuckle rose
A marked change in sex styles and/or frequency is more often than not an indication of underlining problems. This is true barring some sort of medical problem with one or both of the participants.
I would caution any younger person to not ignore these changes early on in the marriage because eventually it may become the norm for the rest of the life of the relationship.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm still gonna **** him just not every damn day.
> 
> If he finds that unreasonable, he's not worth marrying.


As Holland stated, you need to discuss how you feel about sex before you get married. Don't just spring this on him afterward. It's not fair to either of you. As far as your previous post about hoping he slows down with age.... have you paid attention to the ages of the HD men on here? :scratchhead: Having kids doesn't slow down HIS drive as much as it seems to slow down many women's drives.

Love languages were mentioned on this thread by a few people. I am one of those "odd" women whose love language is touch. My drive, currently, is higher than my husband's It isn't really much higher, but it's enough that I feel like I want it more often than he does. I'm not sure what his love language is because he has yet to do the test. But, considering my drive is currently higher, I am content with cuddling and kissing, not just sex. It's the intimacy I need, not just the release. And this, I believe, is what WOM was getting at. It isn't about having the orgasm, though they are great! It's about showing love by touching and being touched... cuddle, kiss, hug, etc.

As for what Jaharthur did when he changed HSR's post to this:



> *[MY CONCLUSION FROM READING THIS FORUM IS THAT]* men complain about not enuf sex or HOW they get sex (meaning they have to initiate most of the time). *[IT SEEMS TO ME THAT]* Women complain he wants it too much, or isn't satisfied that she DOES have sex bcuz she loves hum, but not bcuz she is gagging for it.
> 
> *[I'M ASSUMING]* these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but *[AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED]* if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, *[IT SEEMS TO ME MEN CONCLUDE IT COMES]* off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off.
> 
> ...


is actually right. HSR, I remember your posts from a few months ago, and I feel for you. But not all men view sex the way you have presented it. And not all of us women feel the "need" to have "duty sex" with our husbands. Some of us enjoy every second of it. 

I can't remember who said something about some guy saying "She won't do A, B, & C to spice up our sex life"... but that's ONE man, not all of them. And I don't think it's unreasonable for a man to be upset because they are having sex once every six weeks. And no, no one would think anyone is out of his mind if his wife is putting him off so much and he chooses to divorce over it. I would EXPECT my husband to divorce if we dropped that much! I can handle dropping to every 3 weeks, or even once a month if one or both of us is sick. But on a regular basis? No. It is unreasonable to expect someone to stick around if their sex life is sexless, or even nearly sexless. It isn't an unreasonable request that the spouse, be it a man or a woman, actually show love and enthusiasm. And not fake it. If there's something wrong, SAY so. No one is a mind reader. Holding back, having duty or pity sex, even if you pretend to enjoy it, only builds up the resentment. What kind of relationship is that??

Don't worry, aribabe, I know you will respond, mocking me... I've come to expect it. So, I await the wrath of other women to come at me.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> My partner is in his 50's and we have sex daily, twice some days. Honestly you need to talk to your guy openly or as *john_lord_b3* says you are just doing a bait and switch, wrong on so many levels.
> 
> It is intriguing though to read posts from a person that knows she is going to do a bait/switch, I had no idea it was such a premeditated thing.


It's not pre-medidated...no one is PLANNING on closing my legs. 

Every day is unnecessary. Every day for 50 years of marriage (God willing)? 

Not gonna happen, even if I wanted it to. 

A few times a week? Fine as long as I don't miss Grey's Anatomy.

(kidding)

I said to him "Babe, you can't wear me out this much for the next fifty years" 

And he goes "Why do you think I'm jumping you now?"


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

> And FYI, he knows my history. He knows I'm a sexual roller coaster.


I respect the fact that everybody has their ups and downs, just like the rain came down in many levels of intensity.

If you have told him all about you, what you want, what kind of sex you want after marriage, and he still wants to marry you anyway, well, it's his choice. Whatever floats his boat.

I won't be surprised though, if many many years after marrying you, he come here and complaining 'my wife used to give me sex daily when we weren't married, now after our marriage suddenly she won't give me sex as much as we used to have..' 

it's a consequence of his decision (assuming that his decision were 'informed')


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I respect the fact that everybody has their ups and downs, just like the rain came down in many levels of intensity.
> 
> If you have told him all about you, what you want, what kind of sex you want after marriage, and he still wants to marry you anyway, well, it's his choice. Whatever floats his boat.
> 
> ...


I have no real desire for sex either way, at the same time, I don't have a distaste for it either. 

If I don't have too much else on my mind he can have it, not an issue.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have no real desire for sex either way, at the same time, I don't have a distaste for it either.
> 
> If I don't have too much else on my mind he can have it, not an issue.


Lordy lordy lordy, you just don't get it, that or you just don't want to understand.

This is not just about you, this is about your man and your relationship together. It should be equal, healthy, open. It is not any of those things, it will implode eventually.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Lordy lordy lordy, you just don't get it, that or you just don't want to understand.


I'm not going to emasculate him by telling him I have no physical desire for sex, he'll take it way too personally. 

Does any many really expect the sex everyday to last forever?

Btw, I have a rejection rate rule. Max 1/6 times. 

He'll never be on this forum if I stick to that.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Btw, I have a rejection rate rule. Max 1/6 times.
> 
> He'll never be on this forum if I stick to that.


Excellent! Very rational and logical!

Now, let's put that down in writing on a pre-nuptial agreement. You sign, he sign, a Lawyer sign. You're happy to get your rejection allowance, he is happy to have a 1/6 ratio, and the Lawyer happy to get paid.

And forum people happy not having to heard your hubby (or your)'s sad stories.

It's so good to be a Lawyer *smiles like a shark* *just kidding*


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm not going to emasculate him by telling him I have no physical desire for sex, he'll take it way too personally.
> 
> Does any many really expect the sex everyday to last forever?
> 
> ...


Likely, no, they don't expect it to last forever. However, they don't expect it to drop as soon as the ring is on the finger either.... and sadly, that is what many have complained about on this forum: as soon as they married, they stopped the sex...or at least it dwindled to once every two weeks at most, right away. And what we are saying is that if you feel this way about sex, you can't just have that offhand comment "babe, you know we can't do this everyday forever"... you need to have a real talk about it. I do commend him being patient about your problem with penetration. Totally understandable why you don't like it. But to give him everyday NOW, knowing that you're going to, one day, just drop it... that's not fair to him. You need to really discuss this and not just assume you can let it go because of the kids. Because then, your focus will be on the kids, pushing him to the background, which will then lead him to the forums and complaining about the lack of sex since the kids were born. See where I'm going here? There is no guarantee that his drive will drop as much as you think it will. I can safely say that if my husband wasn't needing the medications he is on now, we'd be going at it everyday. We have three kids. I am late 30s, he is early 30s. But as has been pointed out on here, there are men in their 40s and 50s here who are still wanting sex with their wives on a daily basis...sometimes even multiple times a day. How will you address that later on, if it comes up?


And the part in bold: IF... is a big little word...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Likely, no, they don't expect it to last forever. However, they don't expect it to drop as soon as the ring is on the finger either.... and sadly, that is what many have complained about on this forum: as soon as they married, they stopped the sex...or at least it dwindled to once every two weeks at most, right away. And what we are saying is that if you feel this way about sex, you can't just have that offhand comment "babe, you know we can't do this everyday forever"... you need to have a real talk about it. I do commend him being patient about your problem with penetration. Totally understandable why you don't like it. But to give him everyday NOW, knowing that you're going to, one day, just drop it... that's not fair to him. You need to really discuss this and not just assume you can let it go because of the kids. Because then, your focus will be on the kids, pushing him to the background, which will then lead him to the forums and complaining about the lack of sex since the kids were born. See where I'm going here? There is no guarantee that his drive will drop as much as you think it will. I can safely say that if my husband wasn't needing the medications he is on now, we'd be going at it everyday. We have three kids. I am late 30s, he is early 30s. But as has been pointed out on here, there are men in their 40s and 50s here who are still wanting sex with their wives on a daily basis...sometimes even multiple times a day. How will you address that later on, if it comes up?


I know I sound cold but my fiancé is very sensitive, more so than I am. He takes EVERYTHING personally and his sexual happiness is dependent on me enjoying it.

I tell him I don't like sex, he'll never feel like a proper "man" again. 

I'd never do that to him. I love him and I have sex with him BECAUSE I love him. He has sex with me BECAUSE he loves sex. I don't feel the need to hurt his male ego or whatever it is. It isn't his fault I don't like the sex for the sex. 

I will admit, I used to throw up when we were done but that was in the very beginning and it doesn't happen anymore! Now I like that I'm making him feel good. 

I told him about my history and he thinks he understands but of course he doesn't how could he? He's young. And no one has ever expected him to be a grown up.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You do realize you're saying your fiancé is like me right?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You do realize you're saying your fiancé is like me right?


The difference between me and your wife is this:

I will never withhold sex nor be so half assed about it.

I'm always enthusiastic and eager to please. And actually, I love giving oral. Getting it I could live with or without but he likes it so, have at it.

My happiness is dependent on his. I can't see him unhappy and not do something.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Actually I wasn't comparing you and my wife. But you describe your man the way my wife might describe me.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I love him and I have sex with him BECAUSE I love him. He has sex with me BECAUSE he loves sex.





> The difference between me and your wife is this:
> 
> I will never withhold sex nor be so half assed about it.
> 
> ...


NOW. This is how you feel now. 

There is a strong likelihood that when you've been together for some years, this won't be enough to get you moving toward the bedroom. You will not feel "enthusiastic and eager to please" after years and years of giving him sex only to please him while you have no desire for it.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I thought you broke up with your fiancé last night LittleBird and were considering heading off to a convent? And now you're back having daily sex with him? That was quick.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Wow, what a friendly thread I missed today.

As an HD married to an LD, I'm one of those insatiable men who comes along to the group whining about the inadequacies of my spouse. Now I didn't go to the Aribabe school of Make Him a Better Lover, so my oral technique might be a little off - but then, since she's never once let my try in the 29 years we've been together, hopefully I can be cut a little slack. My ability to arouse by touch is pretty rusty too, since it's almost just as unused in that same time frame. All those times I never asked for that blowjob that I never received - how she put up with that behavior I'll never know. Her high-90's orgasm percentage from PIV alone in the Two Sanctioned Sexual Positions is probably just an elaborate facade since most men are completely fooled by a woman hell bent on chicanery as long as she screams at the top of her lungs for long enough (wink, wink).

Since there's nothing more to my marriage than sex, it's a wonder I'm still here. All those years wasted raising a family, building a home, making a secure financial future together, watching the nest go empty - man was I a fool. And to think I'd have the audacity to come here and ask for assistance or at least commiseration is beyond the pale.

So I'm happy to be the strawman you construct so you can tear it down here in the TAM forums. It's just another one of those services I provide - now be a love and give me my blowjob in return, mmmmk? You'd better act like you're enjoying it...


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Wow. [*SOME*] Women here are saying that they *hate *sex, and/or that they don't care for it, and that they'll get married expecting to be able train their husband not to desire sex so much . . . . and that they won't tell their future husband that they really don't care for sex . . . .

AND THEN THEY BLAME MEN!!! Those filthy animals who would like to be wanted by their spouse. For real, not pretend.

U N B E L I E V A B L E.

No, not all men are sexual pigs. A lot of us don't have to be because we're married to women who want us emotionally *and *physically.

I would just hope that anybody, male or female, who hates sex or simply doesn't care for it one way or another tells their partner *BEFORE *getting into a relationship that he or she better plan on a lot of self-pleasure. Or, find a partner who also hates or does not care for sex. Full disclosure would eliminate a lot of unhappiness.


----------



## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I thought you broke up with your fiancé last night LittleBird and were considering heading off to a convent? And now you're back having daily sex with him? That was quick.


Whoa, I didn't get that information. The thread gone down before I had the chances to read it.

Interestingly, nobody responded to my idea about prenuptial agreement.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> Wow. [*SOME*] Women here are saying that they *hate *sex, and/or that they don't care for it, and that they'll get married expecting to be able train their husband not to desire sex so much . . . . and that they won't tell their future husband that they really don't care for sex . . . .
> 
> AND THEN THEY BLAME MEN!!! Those filthy animals who would like to be wanted by their spouse. For real, not pretend.
> 
> ...




Couldn't agree with you more. :iagree:


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Wow, what a friendly thread I missed today.
> 
> As an HD married to an LD, I'm one of those insatiable men who comes along to the group whining about the inadequacies of my spouse. Now I didn't go to the Aribabe school of Make Him a Better Lover, so my oral technique might be a little off - but then, since she's never once let my try in the 29 years we've been together, hopefully I can be cut a little slack. My ability to arouse by touch is pretty rusty too, since it's almost just as unused in that same time frame. All those times I never asked for that blowjob that I never received - how she put up with that behavior I'll never know. Her high-90's orgasm percentage from PIV alone in the Two Sanctioned Sexual Positions is probably just an elaborate facade since most men are completely fooled by a woman hell bent on chicanery as long as she screams at the top of her lungs for long enough (wink, wink).
> 
> ...


Mr. Cletus, you have some valid points. In my opinion, I think ALL HD people, man or woman, must be up-front about their HD-ness, and must be specific about what they want/need.

Go find a wife/husband with compatible libido. Or, at least, find a man/woman whom are willing to accept a pre-nuptial agreement that you are a HD, and you absolutely HAVE to have sex at least N time a week, with acceptable rejection rate of 1/6 ('Littlebird' rate), and that failure to comply with this need has legal consequences (divorce with no alimony?).

Off course, we must allow for actual physical problem, but if the non-HD spouse does not take real, actual, effective steps to remedy the physical problem (for example, HD woman with normal drive man, the man suddenly suffering from impotence, and deliberately not taking any medicine to remedy the situation), then the legal consequences still apply.

This will discourage the practices of bait-and-switch, and will make lawyers very rich..  

The downside, is that the number of potential wife/husband who are willing to take the HD person 'as is' will likely be very small...


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My happiness is dependent on his. I can't see him unhappy and not do something.


So, your happiness is dependent on his...what is his happiness dependent on? LB, your happiness should NOT, i repeat *NOT* be dependent on ANYONE else. NO ONE'S happiness should be dependent on anyone else. The male ego isn't as fragile as some women seem to think. My husband is sensitive as well. But I am HONEST with him. If I'm just not going to O, I tell him. It doesn't mean I enjoy sex less. But, if you have frequented these boards for awhile, you will also see that more are upset to learn later on that their wives aren't into sex and have just "put up with it" for them... a sensitive man will be more devastated years down the road than hearing it while engaged. If he is THAT in tune with you, then he will understand. But starting off married life with dishonesty? How does THAT for a healthy relationship?!?!?!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> ..But starting off married life with dishonesty? How does THAT for a healthy relationship?!?!?!


Psst..Mrs. Maricha.. this kind of attitude is what keeps Divorce Lawyers, Psychiatrists and Marriage Counsellors in business...

As long as many people still think that they could enter a marriage without being completely honest, well many from the above-said professions will benefit. But the couple involved in the marriage will be the ones who must bear the brunt of unhappiness, counting their teardrops and broken dreams.. while psychiatrists, counsellors and lawyers are counting their monies and earnings..


----------



## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

If someone is just going through the motions for duty sex, I can tell you its not going to slake his lust forever. Right now you can be enthusiasic about it. What about a year from now. You think just laying there counting tiles on the ceiling is going to do it for him, better think again. He will get tired of it and there are plenty of other women who wont mind doing what you dont want to do. Think you can just get by for now and after marriage or kids you can slack off on it. He's probably thinking when I get married "I can have as much sex as I want". Most men dont get married with the ambition of having to jerk off to get their needs met. If your not sexually compatible with someone, dont get married.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> So, your happiness is dependent on his...what is his happiness dependent on? LB, your happiness should NOT, i repeat *NOT* be dependent on ANYONE else. NO ONE'S happiness should be dependent on anyone else. The male ego isn't as fragile as some women seem to think. My husband is sensitive as well. But I am HONEST with him. If I'm just not going to O, I tell him. It doesn't mean I enjoy sex less. But, if you have frequented these boards for awhile, you will also see that more are upset to learn later on that their wives aren't into sex and have just "put up with it" for them... a sensitive man will be more devastated years down the road than hearing it while engaged. If he is THAT in tune with you, then he will understand. But starting off married life with dishonesty? How does THAT for a healthy relationship?!?!?!


:iagree: 
Also don't mistake a man being genuinely being hurt as male ego, 2 very different things.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I understand there is an intimate side to sex but every time a man wants sex, there isn't emotion behind it. He's just good ol' fashioned horny, which is totally fine, but you can't get mad a woman for not being horny in the same way you are.
> 
> You poke her in the back with your morning wood and she says no.
> 
> ...


Why all the talk about winning and losing? Why all the absolutes? No one says you need to have sex every time, or that you need to be 100% into it (at least not me).

You are conflating ideas to justify why you can reject your spouse at some point. Most posters are not talking about an occasional "not tonight" or loving sex where it is more about him. Sex life ebs and flows. If you are working to meet your partners needs, they will understand when you ask for a rain check or just want it to be about him. But if you repeatedly reject (like the guys who have not had sex in a year) or roll your eyes and tell him to get it over with, then yes, you should expect that not to be well received.

And so what if sex is sometimes about the physical. You really need to take it off some pedestal. Sex with my wife is emotional, or fun, or romantic, or dirty, or sweaty, or tender, or raw, or some combination.

If the worst problem during your marriage is your guy waking up with morning wood and horny because of you, then you will have a great marriage.



> For instance, I hate morning sex. But I was told it was selfish of me to never give him morning sex. So fine, if I give it to him it won't be cause I have a physical desire to do it. It's like a no win.


It is selfish to *NEVER* give morning sex if that is a turn on for him. That does not mean always giving it. Rather, it means that if you love your partner, you do things for them even sometimes if it is not something you particularly love. But if getting what you want is so important that you will never do soemthing like this for him, then I do think that should call into question your love of him.

And before you try to rewrite my post again, that goes both ways. There are things I hate that I do for my wife because I love her and she loves them. My wife hates morning sex. She does not feel sexy or comfortable then. So I don't push for it. But I love it, she knows that, she loves me, so we have it a couple of times a year. That is a gift that she gives and I receive.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Not being horny whenever your partner wants sex does not mean you are not suited to be in a relationship.
> That's just.... stupid. I'm sorry.
> And it doesn't even make a little sense.
> 
> ...


No one "pouts or cries" over that happening every so often. The problem becomes when that is the only way you get sex. I suspect that if that was all you got, it wouldn't work for you.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> If you've read this forum long enuf, you know men complain about not enuf sex or HOW they get sex (meaning they have to initiate most of the time). Women complain he wants it too much, or isn't satisfied that she DOES have sex bcuz she loves hum, but not bcuz she is gagging for it.
> 
> Statistically, it would seem these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, it comes off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off.
> 
> ...


I'd recommend that you divorce your husband and seriously think about a single life, or pursuing a relationship with another woman.

Looking at all your posts, you seem to be very anti-male, likely due to your husband, who has hurt you a lot. The last thing you need is to be in a relationship with a man when you're carrying this kind of hurt, and pain, and these kinds of egregious misnomers about men.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

*"why not accept what is good enuf?"*

"Good enough" isn't in my personality. 

Sex once a months isn't good enough, unless there's a major issue at hand.

A crappy job isn't good enough.

Crappy food isn't good enough.

You only live once and I plan on making the best of it and I work my a** off to get what I want out of life (I'm not materialistic) 

If my Wife wasn't making me happy, I wouldn't say that's "good enough" I'd do everything in my power to make it better! If that didn't work, I'd move on and look for someone that makes me happy. Life is just WAY to short for "good enough"


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> .
> *
> And what makes it even worse is that many (most?) men are not adequate lovers,yet they have al these demands.*
> 
> ...


Well, she might have a little more credibility if she did not lie to men about how what they were doing worked. Apparently, all men are crappy lovers intentionally, and if they only used their mind reading powers, they would be dynamite in bed. Please.


HSR - I know you have issues with porn and men (and rightfully so), but taking your bitterness toward your husband and attacking good men who have never done these things and are desparately trying to connect with their wives is not right. You are better than that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I shouldn't have to spell it out that daily sex is NOT sustainable.


Why not? If you are so concerned about it, you really should tell him. If you are mature enough to consider marriage, then be mature enough to have these types of conversations (as well as about money, chores, career, etc.). 



> And FYI, he knows my history. He knows I'm a sexual roller coaster.


A history that he all but ignored, as you noted in the thread you took down. Don't hide behind that "disclosure."


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> If we both accept what is and work together to meet in the middle, isn't that best for the marriage & the family?


Amen to that.

--Problem here on TAM though is that men whose wives don't want to compromise end up discussing it with women whose husbands don't want to compromise. And fireworks ensue


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I shouldn't have to spell it out that daily sex is NOT sustainable.


daily sex is NOT sustainable.for you.
For others such as myself and my SO it works beautifully.

not aimed at anyone in particular but every couple is different.It's our responsibility to present our limitations and needs in a clear and mature way so our partner knows exactly what is ahead of them should they decide to commit their life to us.Aside from unforeseen medical issues and unforeseen life trauma,you should know yourself well enough to openly discuss your needs and limitations prior to making any sort of commitment.The problem is so many women just want to be with someone and they want to be married,breed babies,and have that nice little life that they will promise their partner the world to get that ring and pretty white gown.Men also make promises they can't keep and that is equally wrong.No marriage can survive unrealistic promises and no marriage can survive poor communication skills.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The problem is so many women just want to be with someone and they want to be married,breed babies,and have that nice little life that they will promise their partner the world to get that ring and pretty white gown.Men also make promises they can't keep and that is equally wrong.No marriage can survive unrealistic promises and no marriage can survive poor communication skills.


I think this needs to be reposted. I see too many posters justifying their behavior and decisions by saying "well men or women do it." That does not fly. You are not marrying a generic man or generic woman. You are marrying the person that you love. Have this conversation with them. No, it is not fool proof, because people do change. But marriage is not fool proof either.

I did not have all of these conversations, and my marriage was poorer for it. Partly out of ignorance and partly out of immaturity, we both thought things would just work themselves out. While it mostly has, we went through some crap that could possibly have been avoided had we had some discussions up front.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

aribabe said:


> And what makes it even worse is that many (most?) men are not adequate lovers,yet they have al these demands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you imagine the uproar if a man here wrote "most women are not adequate lovers, yet they have all these demands."

Or said it anywhere?

He would be pilloried, and rightly so.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Excellent! Very rational and logical!
> 
> Now, let's put that down in writing on a pre-nuptial agreement. You sign, he sign, a Lawyer sign. You're happy to get your rejection allowance, he is happy to have a 1/6 ratio, and the Lawyer happy to get paid.
> 
> ...


Shhh. Don't tell anybody--I'm a lawyer. I'll draft that prenup! But where's my retainer?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

aribabe said:


> And what makes it even worse is that many (most?) men are not adequate lovers,yet they have al these demands.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And most women are?


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Bad lovers are the ones who walk into the bedroom for the first time thinking they will automatically rock this persons world and demand the same in return before they even know what the person needs.
Good lovers are the ones who are unselfish enough to realize their new lover won't be like their old lover in regard to what gets them off.They don't demand more than they can give.

This isn't gender specific because both sexes can be terrible at sex for a variety of reasons.


----------



## juicecondensation (Oct 11, 2012)

Alot of men never get to feel sexually desired by their wifes.

Some women here wonder why the man doesn't feel happy when she's having sex with him even though she isn't into it.

He doesn't feel desired. He knows you are just going through the motions. 

Imagine what it would be like to NEVER be sexually desired, never getting to feel what it's like to be with a person who actually wants to have sex with you. That's what it's like for most men. 

Men are sexually _un_desirable. And I think this is depressing to alot of men.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> daily sex is NOT sustainable.for you.
> For others such as myself and my SO it works beautifully.
> 
> not aimed at anyone in particular but every couple is different.It's our responsibility to present our limitations and needs in a clear and mature way so our partner knows exactly what is ahead of them should they decide to commit their life to us.Aside from unforeseen medical issues and unforeseen life trauma,you should know yourself well enough to openly discuss your needs and limitations prior to making any sort of commitment.The problem is so many women just want to be with someone and they want to be married,breed babies,and have that nice little life that they will promise their partner the world to get that ring and pretty white gown.Men also make promises they can't keep and that is equally wrong.No marriage can survive unrealistic promises and no marriage can survive poor communication skills.


:iagree: this is on point. men and women are responsible. I take responsibility for "believing" our sex life would remain more or less the same after marriage when i could have opened up that discussion. at that point, perhaps we would have had a better idea of our expectations. 

OP, i'm sorry to hear you are not satisfied with your relationship and it appears that your SO hasn't always been respectful of your space/boundaries. Earlier you mentioned that women have sex out of love and men out of lust. Am i misquoting you or misunderstanding you? if not, men can want sex out from a cuddly/emotional place and/or out of a primal "i want your body" place. this can lead to sex being experienced in spontaneous and exciting ways. my partners have enjoyed the gentle lovemaking and the aggressive "jackhammer" style" 

at least that's what they told me


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

juicecondensation said:


> Alot of men never get to feel sexually desired by their wifes.
> 
> Some women here wonder why the man doesn't feel happy when she's having sex with him even though she isn't into it.
> 
> ...


To flip it, a lot of men don't understand why their wives are not satisfied with what they do. They work, help with the kids, handle chores, and treat her well. They think that should be enough to show that they love their wife, that it should be appreciated and that their wife should find it attractive.

They are quickly corrected on this by many women here. That is good, as just doing those things is often not enough. These women want more and that is not wrong.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Now THIS I can agree with. This is perfectly rational. I just sometimes feel like ALL the pressure is on the less horny partner. Compromise is good. And I think only fair in a relationship.


I think the pressure is on both sides. There is the burden of always telling a loved one no when you're the LD, as there is concern of being cheated on, having that person mad, etc.

On the flip side, the HD has to deal with rejection, question whther or not he/she is attractive anymore, if the amount of rejection is high they even question if theya re loved anymore, or if their partner is cheating on them.

Neither side wins, both sides lose equally I believe.



LittleBird said:


> I do agree with this but I think that, unless it's an extreme, sex is a bad reason to go forth with a marriage or to forgo a suitable partner.
> 
> Is it really worth it to dump someone who is suitable in every way who physically needs less sex? If they are still HAVING the sex, just aren't drooling over it?
> 
> ...


I think age plays a factor in this. Just like you say looks fade, needs also change. I'm not as horny as I was at 18, but I desire intimacy on an emotional level 1,000x more. When I'm 80 I may never be horny, but I may desire to connect with my wife intimately still, even if she doesn't look like she did. 

The fact that old men still chase around their wives after 50 years and the wife looks every part of an 80-year-old proves to me sex isn't just sex for men. No one has a pin up of an 80-year-old.



saracole said:


> I don't agree. A LD feels more than just resentment. They have fear of being booted, they don't feel truly loved, anger and also frustration. All I see on this board is if you are not getting what you want then leave and the big D word. It is thrown around like nothing. There has to be compromise on both ends not just the LD side. Because in the end you got married because you love the other person. I know I didn't get married for the soul person of sex.


I think you need to read more then. What I see a lot of on this board is suggestions to try, recommendation of counselling, and a whole host of other things before you even think about the big D. As someone who posts regularly here, and as someone who has gone through a D myself, I think I may have recommended a D once or twice. It is not to be taken lightly, and I don't recall many people suggesting that as a first step when sex is an issue.



honeysuckle rose said:


> LB, I am on the same boat. But if you don't want it how & when they want it, you're not a good wife even if you do it w/ enthusiasm. Talk about the planets aligning...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe in your situation. As i said in my initial reply in this thread, enthusiasm is all I really desire (along with a bit of change here and there, don't want to do the same position EVERY time). I don't need the planets to align, neither does many of the men in this very thread either based on their responses. If you do, that's your relationship issue.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> whatever. When you have no actual argument then you can always fall back on insulting the person you're talking with. It's a pretty weak tactic. For the record, my teeth and breath are fine. She complains that my 5 o'clock shadow irritates her skin, which is complete bull**** since there are billions of women kissing men with hair on their face every day.


There's a difference between kissing a guy with a full grown beard/moustache/goatee and someone who hasn't shaved for a day or two. When I have a beard, it can be a bit prickly but generally it's sort of soft. If I don't shave for 2 days I could use my chin to sand wood. 



honeysuckle rose said:


> I have grown to hate sex. I have orgasms with him, but that doesn't make me want to run and do it again as soon as possible. I have sex because HE wants/needs it. That's HIS Love Language, not mine. MY Love Languages aren't being met and the problem is, I don't think he CAN meet my need for acts of service and conversation. We don't feel like a united front or a team because we have opposing views on almost everything in the solar system.
> 
> Having sex when you don't want it/feel like it/like it, isn't a sin and isn't pity/duty sex, if done with love and actively (ie don't lie there like a corpse).
> 
> I feel NOTHING BUT A BROOM POKING ME IN THE GROIN, but it makes him happy. Period. I'm not a horrible person.


I think this is really the basis of your problem. YOU chose the wrong partner. It's not all the men in the world youa re mad at, it's your husband. You and him speak different languages.

So go get pissed at him. Or better yet, get pissed at yourself. YOU chose that relationship, so if you're not happy look in a mirror. You speak a different language then him and you're mad that you are trying to learn his langauge but don't feel like he's trying to learn yours. So take that up with him. He's the one being selfish, not EVERY man everywhere. We aren't all a bunch of whiny, complaining *******s who only want sex everyday, and exciting, and new, and set to record a 14 on the Richter scale. Many men want just intimacy, that close, special, bonding feeling that comes from being with the one person in the world you want sexually.

While I do enjoy blowjobs, other positions, giving my fiancee oral, etc. I've turned all those down to be with my fiancee in a missionary position, or with her on top, many times (especially recently). Why? Because I crave to be able to hold her close, to look her in the eye, to kiss her lips and to feel her whole body pressed against mine. I feel love from that. I feel connected to her from that. I feel closer to her then than in any other moment. THAT'S why I want sex with her. I don't want to just blow a load, I want to be connected to her.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Thank you for the huggles mama bear
> 
> Well, to be honest, everything ends up leading to sex. I've tried (subtly) to avoid daily sex.
> 
> ...


So you figure he shouldn't come on here ever complaining about you, but it's ok to say he's basically to dumb to match socks? Sounds fair 



techmom said:


> Sounds like you are trying to solve your insecurities through sex, which will never work. You will always be tense, looking for this and that in her expression or what she does (kissing) that will reassure you that she loves you. You will always be left unsatisfied and unhappy. Sex will be a turnoff, that is probably why you are not feeling satisfied with it anymore like you stated in your other thread. Thing is, she has her own reasons why she does not want to do the kissing and oral that you like to do.
> 
> One thing that turns women off is when their man is looking to be reassured of their own value through sex. The key is to find value within yourself


I think men are built to sort of need sex to reassure them. If you look at it from a primal sort of way, males often had to compete for females (still do if you think of courting as competing). A women's willingness to have sex with a man is viewed as stating that man is not only desireable, he's number one to that woman. When a women says no, especially repeatedly, and especially if the rejection is done for something the man might question the validity of ("I'm to tired," I'd rather watch TV", etc.) the man can take that as not just a sexual rejection, but also a rejection of himself.

Women do it to, just on a different scale and on different things sometimes. We all have areas we need to feel secure in.



LittleBird said:


> This is very true.
> 
> Well, I was hoping he'd just slow down with age. He's 20, he's in his prime. I'm tying him down to monogamy the least I can do is **** him, right? That seems to be the theme. Lol.
> 
> I hope once the kids are born I can catch a break.


Bait and switch. I know you have tried to explain yourself after this post, but this si all just a bait and switch. I don't think you relaize that's what it is as it's not intentional, but it is a bait and switch.

Btw, you may expect it to drop off, but he doesn't. You may think it's unreasonable to expect sex daily into marriage, he may not.

Think of it like this, say you took out a trail membership to a gym, allowing you access to all the equipment you want to use, as often as you wanted to use it for one-year. Then after that one-year you could leave the gym or sign on for a life time contract. You enjoy the equipment, love the gym, love the staff, think it's perfect so you sign up for the lifetime contract.

It's only then, after signing, that you are informed that your membership only allows you to access the equipment for say three-days a week, and some equipment may not be available every day and that if new members join the gym (IE, children get born) that there may be further restrictions as needed. You're telling me you wouldn't be a little pissed they didn't inform you ahead of time before you made a huge, lifelong commitment? 

Essentgially that's what your doing to your fiancee. Only in his case, he can't go to another gym.



juicecondensation said:


> Alot of men never get to feel sexually desired by their wifes.
> 
> Some women here wonder why the man doesn't feel happy when she's having sex with him even though she isn't into it.
> 
> ...


It was in my marriage, and at times it has crept into my current relationship, though I think a lot of that is me overreacting to somethings based on what happened in my marriage.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

And women are women. I guess. I don't know...
But I DO know that women don't have nearly as many sexual expectations as men
And if men didn't have so many, it would be a lot easier to over look the fact that many men (possibly most) are just a terrible flop in bed. 

But when you expect your wife to get excited about being twisted into contortionist positions that don't stimulate her "hot spots" in any way, or to swallow a half cup of foul tasting thick viscous fluid, or to have an erect penis pushed into her anus.... then you call attention to your own lack of sexual skills.

Men that are sexually satisfying don't need theatrics or porn moves. They are just arousing. And they know how to be stimulating. That don't get their moves from Jack BigD*ck of porn xyz. They understand pleasure and how to be pleasurable.

And I find that men who are always complaining about their wives not being aroused by them, rarely consider that they themselves may simply not be arousing. Most of theses women that hold so tightly on to their panties, would probably break their fingernals trying to get them off for a man that was sexually satisfying.



jaquen said:


> And most women are?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

aribabe said:


> But when you expect your wife to get excited about being twisted into contortionist positions that don't stimulate her "hot spots" in any way, or to swallow a half cup of foul tasting thick viscous fluid, or to have an erect penis pushed into her anus.... then you call attention to your own lack of sexual skills


:rofl: Busting a gut here!! :rofl:


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol, sorry
I guess I got a little graphic :rofl:



T&T said:


> :rofl: Busting a gut here!! :rofl:


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I thought you broke up with your fiancé last night LittleBird and were considering heading off to a convent? And now you're back having daily sex with him? That was quick.


Forgive my use of tenses as they aren't always consistent.

And our break up lasted less than 18 hours. 

Yay me.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Lol, sorry
> I guess I got a little graphic :rofl:


Don't be sorry, it's funny and true for some. BTW, I agree with you, not all men need a gymnast for a wife! :scratchhead:


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Lol, sorry
> I guess I got a little graphic :rofl:
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it was good. 

But I hope it was a very small cup. Eeeewwwwww.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lordhavok said:


> If someone is just going through the motions for duty sex, I can tell you its not going to slake his lust forever. Right now you can be enthusiasic about it. What about a year from now. You think just laying there counting tiles on the ceiling is going to do it for him, better think again. He will get tired of it and there are plenty of other women who wont mind doing what you dont want to do. Think you can just get by for now and after marriage or kids you can slack off on it. He's probably thinking when I get married "I can have as much sex as I want". Most men dont get married with the ambition of having to jerk off to get their needs met. If your not sexually compatible with someone, dont get married.


That's a little bit ridiculous, sorry. And ffs, I am so tired of the word "NEED" being thrown around like it's nothing.

There is nothing wrong with your right hand, sir. 

If I marry someone, OF COURSE I am going to have sex with them but not because it's my damn job. I do it because he wants to and I want to please.

You can't sell me the bull**** that men need daily sex for their spiritual well being.

Sorry.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

aribabe said:


> And women are women. *I guess. I don't know*..._Posted via Mobile Device_


Nailed it in the second sentence.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> daily sex is NOT sustainable.for you.
> For others such as myself and my SO it works beautifully.
> 
> not aimed at anyone in particular but every couple is different.It's our responsibility to present our limitations and needs in a clear and mature way so our partner knows exactly what is ahead of them should they decide to commit their life to us.Aside from unforeseen medical issues and unforeseen life trauma,you should know yourself well enough to openly discuss your needs and limitations prior to making any sort of commitment.The problem is so many women just want to be with someone and they want to be married,breed babies,and have that nice little life that they will promise their partner the world to get that ring and pretty white gown.Men also make promises they can't keep and that is equally wrong.No marriage can survive unrealistic promises and no marriage can survive poor communication skills.


If it takes daily sex to keep him happy, daily sex he will get. 

I don't give a toss about sex either way, really. If he wants it he can have it. 

Would I like less? Eh. But I don't care enough either way- I let him set the flow.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> You can't sell me the bull**** that men need daily sex for their spiritual well being.
> 
> Sorry.


It is easier to respond to the arguments that you want, as opposed to those that are actually being made, but it does not get you very far. 

I have not seen anyone post that mne need daily sex, or that not having daily sex with your husband is wrong. But if it helps you justify your position, keep at it.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

No need to get your panties in a bunch Tall Average Guy,
If you feel like you're sexually satisfying, then that's good enough 



Tall Average Guy said:


> Nailed it in the second sentence.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> That's a little bit ridiculous, sorry. And ffs, I am so tired of the word "NEED" being thrown around like it's nothing.


You don't get to tell your spouse what their needs are, any more than they get to tell you what yours are.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why not? If you are so concerned about it, you really should tell him. If you are mature enough to consider marriage, then be mature enough to have these types of conversations (as well as about money, chores, career, etc.).
> 
> 
> 
> A history that he all but ignored, as you noted in the thread you took down. Don't hide behind that "disclosure."


I told him, in plain English. No reaction. I told him again.

I can't make you understand. My fiancé has ALWAYS been like this. How is he supposed to take it seriously when I'm still sleeping with him, cooking for him...etc? He just thinks i'm being paranoid. 

I didn't hold anything back. I gave him graphic details and he just thought I wanted a sympathy cuddle.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol, idk
I've "heard" it's like half a cup



Wazza said:


> No, it was good.
> 
> But I hope it was a very small cup. Eeeewwwwww.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

aribabe said:


> No need to get your panties in a bunch Tall Average Guy,
> If you feel like you're sexually satisfying, then that's good enough
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't you worry. Your posts don't concern me one bit.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

As they shouldn't. 


Tall Average Guy said:


> Don't you worry. Your posts don't concern me one bit.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is easier to respond to the arguments that you want, as opposed to those that are actually being made, but it does not get you very far.
> 
> I have not seen anyone post that mne need daily sex, or that not having daily sex with your husband is wrong. But if it helps you justify your position, keep at it.


Dropping off sex from twice a day to every other day or is not a crime.

Honestly, I never intend to let it drop below that. Bait and switch implies a drastic change.

That isn't a drastic change...that's life.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> You don't get to tell your spouse what their needs are, any more than they get to tell you what yours are.


:iagree:
Saying that I sleep with you because I love you but don't really want it doesn't make a bit of difference to someone who needs to be desired.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> You don't get to tell your spouse what their needs are, any more than they get to tell you what yours are.


It's not really an accurate word. As an academic, it annoys me every time.

To keep the relationship healthy, maybe it is a need.

But every time you want to blow a load and call it a need I get annoyed. Yeah, I do. 

There isn't anything wrong with pleasure sex or wanting to connect but some people take it to the extreme and it's ****ing ridiculous to call your every whim a NEED.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> :iagree:
> Saying that I sleep with you because I love you but don't really want it doesn't make a bit of difference to someone who needs to be desired.


So men only want sex if their wife lusts after them like a wild animal?

The desire to feel intimacy is not enough?

Confused. I thought they wanted spiritual bonding. Love isn't spiritual, only raw desire is?


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> It's not really an accurate word. As an academic, it annoys me every time.


Could you elaborate?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Could you elaborate?


I am not denying that sex is a need in a fulfilling relationship.

But I've seen SO many men on here complain "my wife won't hang from the ceiling lights" or whatever, and they say that their "needs" aren't being met. 

It takes the impact out of the word and it gets under my skin.

Some people need to learn the difference between a strong desire and a need. 

It makes it sound like every time a man needs to orgasm, that is an URGENT CODE RED need that a woman is a bad person for not fulfilling.

Wants vs needs vs ridiculousness. 

None if it is BAD it just may not be a genuine need.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> I think occasionally in most marriages a woman starts counting ceiling tiles no matter how "good" it/he is. That's just life - just like drives & people's bodies, attitudes & women's hormones changing. Meeting needs is the point of marriage. But, why look a gift horse in the mouth on either side?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Um, no. Women count tiles when they could care less about what's going on. And THAT really is selfishness.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> So men only want sex if their wife lusts after them like a wild animal?
> 
> The desire to feel intimacy is not enough?
> 
> Confused. I thought they wanted spiritual bonding. Love isn't spiritual, only raw desire is?


I can't be speak for men but I know that if my husband was having sex with me as something to do for me and not something to enjoy for me I would be pretty hurt, it isn't a man vs women thing some people need to feel desired by their spouse.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Um, no. Women count tiles when they could care less about what's going on. And THAT really is selfishness.


So if she's got zero desire and it's bad on top of it, she's supposed to do what exactly? 

IMO no one should do that every time but there are going to be days when someone wants it and someone doesn't.

I'm not saying count ceiling tiles but what exactly is she supposed to do?


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I am not denying that sex is a need in a fulfilling relationship.
> 
> But I've seen SO many men on here complain "my wife won't hang from the ceiling lights" or whatever, and they say that their "needs" aren't being met.
> 
> ...



So you're objecting to specific use of a general term? In other words, while sex is a human need, specific times, places and styles are not?


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> whatever. When you have no actual argument then you can always fall back on insulting the person you're talking with. It's a pretty weak tactic. For the record, my teeth and breath are fine. She complains that my 5 o'clock shadow irritates her skin, which is complete bull**** since there are billions of women kissing men with hair on their face every day.



Wow it wasn't a insult I was actually being honest. I know some people do not realize there breath can be a little tart. I had to tell my husband why I quit kissing him is because his breath wasn't that great.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> So you're objecting to specific use of a general term? In other words, while sex is a human need, specific times, places and styles are not?



Yes. I object to the over use of the term.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Um, no. Women count tiles when they could care less about what's going on. And THAT really is selfishness.



Women count tiles because they are expected to never say no to sex even though they aren't in the mood. I see this as a selfless act. Me personally I will not have sex if I am not in the mood. So there is no need to count tiles or wonder when it is going to be over.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Yes. I object to the over use of the term.



:iagree:

It is so overused it is ridiculous!!


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

saracole said:


> Women count tiles because they are expected to never say no to sex even though they aren't in the mood. I see this as a selfless act. Me personally I will not have sex if I am not in the mood. So there is no need to count tiles or wonder when it is going to be over.


I think there's a huge, huge disconnect on TAM between guys who've gone without for twelve and eighteen months at a time and ladies who are expected to never say no.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Dropping off sex from twice a day to every other day or is not a crime.
> 
> Honestly, I never intend to let it drop below that. Bait and switch implies a drastic change.
> 
> That isn't a drastic change...that's life.


It does not matter what you think or we thing. What matters is what your fiance thinks. If it is not drastic and no big deal, then it should not be a big deal to discuss it with him.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I haven't read the entire thread. It's a bit long. So I apologize if this post is somehow off topic, but here's how I see things. 

We all have expectations when we marry. Sex is one of those expectations. For me, I expected my husband to meet my needs after marriage. He'd met them before marriage(for the most part), so why would anything change? Now, throughout our three year marriage, we've struggled. Meeting my emotional needs has been a bit of a struggle for him. And the emotional pain and confusion it inflicts is difficult to deal with. Luckily, he's learned that our marriage simply will not last if he doesn't try harder. 

So, for women who think it's okay to just "try", even if the husband expresses his concern, I think you need to broaden your thinking. Maybe the amount of sex your husband needs doesn't make sense to _you_, but if he's expressing concern, the first thought you think shouldn't be, "But I'm already doing enough" because, obviously, you're not. My husband wasn't. He wanted his tiny baby steps to mean as much to me as three dozen roses would, but the fact of the matter was that it just didn't. Did I appreciate him putting in effort? Of course. Was I fulfilled by that amount of effort? _No_. 

Now, I didn't expect him to turn into a hopeless romantic overnight. _That_ is an unrealistic expectation meant to set him up for failure. But I did expect him to try his hardest. And now that he is, the change is so unbelievable! I don't think most men expect their wives to be porn stars over night. But they want enthusiasm. They want the sexual encounter to be _mutual_. Laying there and taking it is about as meaningless as my husband coming him with roses and tossing them onto the table. Sure, you performed the action, but where was the love? Where was the intimacy? Where was the eye contact? The sweet, endearing smile? The whisper of, "I love you baby"? The teasing? 

I hope that makes sense. I know how awful I felt when my husband argued with me about my needs and refused to change. He didn't think he needed to, even though I was losing my love for him, my desire for him.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> It's not really an accurate word. As an academic, it annoys me every time.
> 
> To keep the relationship healthy, maybe it is a need.
> 
> ...


Again, strawmen are easier to argue against that real issues. The needs we are discussing are within the context of a relationship. No one said ever whim is a need. Ignoring sex as a need for many men in their relationship is done at your own peril.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

aribabe said:


> And women are women. I guess. I
> 
> But when you expect your wife to get excited about being twisted into contortionist positions that don't stimulate her "hot spots" in any way, or to swallow a half cup of foul tasting thick viscous fluid, or to have an erect penis pushed into her anus.... then you call attention to your own lack of sexual skills
> 
> ...


:iagree:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

saracole said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It is so overused it is ridiculous!!


Honestly, it's like when you have to have that "wants/needs" talk with your seven year old in some cases.

MOMMY I NEED THE RED TOY

No Timmy, you want the red toy. 

We all want what we want and IMO I'm not saying marriages don't need sex.

But jeez...deja vu back to the toy store when I was five.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> So if she's got zero desire and it's bad on top of it, she's supposed to do what exactly?
> 
> IMO no one should do that every time but there are going to be days when someone wants it and someone doesn't.
> 
> I'm not saying count ceiling tiles but what exactly is she supposed to do?


Put effort into it! I don't always want it when my husband does, either. But instead of focusing on that lack of desire, I try teasing him; flirting with him; roleplaying with him; playing with him; playing hard to get, anything that might get my mind away from Downton Abbey and into the bedroom. And guess what? There has NEVER been a time when I started the night not wanting sex, and ended the night the same way. At a certain point, things just click. Maybe I'm not roaring and begging him to ravage me or anything, but at least we're both participating. 

If the man or woman can tell that their spouse isn't into it, something is very, very wrong imo.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I told him, in plain English. No reaction. I told him again.
> 
> I can't make you understand. My fiancé has ALWAYS been like this. How is he supposed to take it seriously when I'm still sleeping with him, cooking for him...etc? He just thinks i'm being paranoid.
> 
> I didn't hold anything back. I gave him graphic details and he just thought I wanted a sympathy cuddle.


The you did your part. If he still marries you then gets upset when the sex starts to die off, you can say you warned him. As long as you were crystal clear on everything, including how little you like sex and how much potentially it could drop off, he has little grounds to complain on.



LittleBird said:


> It's not really an accurate word. As an academic, it annoys me every time.
> 
> To keep the relationship healthy, maybe it is a need.
> 
> ...


I guess the question is, how do you when he just wants to blow a load and when he genuinely needs to be with you? 



saracole said:


> Women count tiles because they are expected to never say no to sex even though they aren't in the mood. I see this as a selfless act. Me personally I will not have sex if I am not in the mood. So there is no need to count tiles or wonder when it is going to be over.


I think very few men on this board would say a women can't ever say no. Even those men who don't get told no very often (like a handful of times) say it's ok to her a no once in a while.

It's when those no's turn into a constant thing, or the no's becomes 'yes but hurry up while I count the ceiling tiles' that there's an issue.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Honestly, it's like when you have to have that "wants/needs" talk with your seven year old in some cases.
> 
> MOMMY I NEED THE RED TOY
> 
> ...


Honestly, it is clear that you don't think sex is important in a marriage. It is not important to you, so any one who thinks differently is clearly childish, selfish, a porn-addict, wants porn sex and generally wants to physically use their wife. The only important needs in the marriage are the needs that you have and want to meet.

I wish you luck in your marriage. You will definitely need it.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, strawmen are easier to argue against that real issues. The needs we are discussing are within the context of a relationship. No one said ever whim is a need. Ignoring sex as a need for many men in their relationship is done at your own peril.


Sex in itself....not a need. 

You survived the first what, 16 years of your life without it, didn't ya? 

To make a relationship work, YES I agree with you.

But this foaming at the mouth "I need this a/b/c sex" thing I see from SOME people is ridiculous.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Honestly, it is clear that you don't think sex is important in a marriage. It is not important to you, so any one who thinks differently is clearly childish, selfish, a porn-addict, wants porn sex and generally wants to physically use their wife. The only important needs in the marriage are the needs that you have and want to meet.
> 
> I wish you luck in your marriage. You will definitely need it.


I don't think that, actually you misunderstood. 

I think sex in a marriage is important. 

I think sex for the sake of sex is a STRONG WANT that people like pass off as a need to guilt other people.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Yes. I object to the over use of the term.



Overuse and misuse aren't quite the same thing. I think you're going to see the word used quite a lot in a focused forum about sex in marriage. 

If someone is complaining that a specific sexual act is a 'need', or that sex every day is a 'need', I'd agree with you, although I haven't seen the claims myself.

But I strongly disagree with the notion that needs are only objective and material. Anybody making that claim is rewriting the dictionary to suit an agenda.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

saracole said:


> Women count tiles because they are expected to never say no to sex even though they aren't in the mood. I see this as a selfless act. Me personally I will not have sex if I am not in the mood. So there is no need to count tiles or wonder when it is going to be over.


Personally, I don't think that a man should get sex every single time he wants it. I've said no to my husband before and he didn't have an emotional breakdown. BUT, men are sensitive when it comes to sex. Being told "No" more times than they're told "Yes" makes them feel rejected. Rejection sucks. 

If I asked my husband to give me a kiss ten times in a week, and he said no eight of those times, I would eventually just stop asking to be kissed. Or, if he kissed me all of those times and they were mere pecks on the cheek, I would eventually stop asking. I would wonder, "Does he not love me? Am I not attractive enough to kiss anymore? What did I do to make him not want me?" I would be willing to bet that men feel the same when their wives either say no to their sexual advances more than they say yes, or they say yes often but never fully participate. 

It's one thing to say "No". It's an entirely different thing when "No" is the more common answer.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Honestly, it's like when you have to have that "wants/needs" talk with your seven year old in some cases.
> 
> MOMMY I NEED THE RED TOY
> 
> ...


Exactly it is like me looking at a speedy 35 and saying to myself I need this. I am going to die without it. All I am doing is trying to justify spending the money.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Sex in itself....not a need.
> 
> You survived the first what, 16 years of your life without it, didn't ya?
> 
> ...


Again, you continue to argue things that I have never said. 

As far as comparing my body and needs now to when I was 6, that is just plain silly.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Sex in itself....not a need.
> 
> You survived the first what, 16 years of your life without it, didn't ya?
> 
> ...


And who in this thread is disagreeing with you on that example? An example you have used repeatedly btw.

No guys in this thread are arguing that they NEED their wife to hang from the chandelier, covering in honey mustard, while a chimpanzee spanks her ass as her husband masturbates to the Smurfs. Some guy may want that -I don't know who- but that's a want, not a need.

But sex is a need in a relationship. It is also a male need. I would contend that as well. And no, we didn't need sex the first 16 years of our life. We also weren't even fully sexually functional for the first 12-13 years of that either (maybe more), what's your point?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> The you did your part. If he still marries you then gets upset when the sex starts to die off, you can say you warned him. As long as you were crystal clear on everything, including how little you like sex and how much potentially it could drop off, he has little grounds to complain on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems to me if that if I say no every time I don't want to, I'm a *****.

Rightly so, marriage is a compromise, right?

But if I say yes, but it doesn't come from whatever magical land he wants it to be coming from that night, I'm also a *****.

So if I say yes and I'm consistent and enthusiastic but I don't want to try anal when he gets bored with my vagina after 20 years, I'm also a ***** for not "trying to meet him halfway."

Honestly, I see it as a no win for the person who wants it less.

It's ceiling tiles or being cheated on or left from what I've read here. 

I do WANT it just not the same WAY he does. Sex for me is "oh wow look at how much fun he's having, how sweet."


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

For an individual, no. Sex is not a need. To maintain the intimacy in a relationship it is absolutely a need. 

Roses are not a need. Love letters are not a need. Positive affirmation is not a need. Cuddling isn't a need. Talking isn't a need. Friendship isn't a need. Trust, honesty, openness aren't needs. But would a relationship last without those things? Would it be happy?


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

aribabe said:


> And if men didn't have so many, it would be a lot easier to over look the fact that many men (possibly most) are just a terrible flop in bed.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the immortal words of President Reagan: "There you go again."


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I don't think that, actually you misunderstood.
> 
> I think sex in a marriage is important.
> 
> I think sex for the sake of sex is a STRONG WANT that people like pass off as a need to guilt other people.


No, I understand. I have never discussed sex for sex. All this discussion is about sex within marriage. That is what this thread, including the original post, is all about. But you now want to change the debate because it is easier to argue. It does not make my point wrong or even address it.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> And who in this thread is disagreeing with you on that example? An example you have used repeatedly btw.
> 
> No guys in this thread are arguing that they NEED their wife to hang from the chandelier, covering in honey mustard, while a chimpanzee spanks her ass as her husband masturbates to the Smurfs. Some guy may want that -I don't know who- but that's a want, not a need.
> 
> But sex is a need in a relationship. It is also a male need. I would contend that as well. And no, we didn't need sex the first 16 years of our life. We also weren't even fully sexually functional for the first 12-13 years of that either (maybe more), what's your point?


My point is that sex is a need in a relationship. 

But if you were somehow on an island where you couldn't have sex from that "male need" thing you mentioned, what would happen? Would you implode?

It's a want. A very, very strong want. 

I'm not arguing the need for in a relationship.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> For an individual, no. Sex is not a need. To maintain the intimacy in a relationship it is absolutely a need.
> 
> Roses are not a need. Love letters are not a need. Positive affirmation is not a need. Cuddling isn't a need. Talking isn't a need. Friendship isn't a need. Trust, honesty, openness aren't needs. But would a relationship last without those things? Would it be happy?


I see no problem with this.

I agree with this.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> So men only want sex if their wife lusts after them like a wild animal?
> 
> The desire to feel intimacy is not enough?
> 
> Confused. I thought they wanted spiritual bonding. Love isn't spiritual, only raw desire is?


Why do you use phrases such as 'like a wild animal'? 

I get the idea that to you sex is either '[email protected]' or laying there looking at the ceiling. There isn't anything in between. Men want something in between. Sure they like to [email protected], but they also want an intimate connection.

Men want their wives to care about them. To show that they are there for them.

Just like women that want to communicate with their husbands don't want their husbands to just nod periodically.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> No, I understand. I have never discussed sex for sex. All this discussion is about sex within marriage. That is what this thread, including the original post, is all about. But you now want to change the debate because it is easier to argue. It does not make my point wrong or even address it.


In the immortal words of teenage girls everywhere

"Whatever"


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Why do you use phrases such as 'like a wild animal'?
> 
> I get the idea that to you sex is either '[email protected]' or laying there looking at the ceiling. There isn't anything in between. Men want something in between. Sure they like to [email protected], but they also want an intimate connection.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that, dear.

I'm asking why a woman having sex out of love and not lust is somehow a bad thing or not "good enough?"


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

saracole said:


> Exactly it is like me looking at a speedy 35 and saying to myself I need this. I am going to die without it. All I am doing is trying to justify spending the money.


well, men OR women may not die from the lack of sex, but they might not feel fulfilled either. Love and belonging, which includes sexual intimacy, is a need and can be tied to esteem. Touch in a relationship is very important, whether it's a newborn needing touch from a caregiver to survive or a spouse who needs the sexual touch from a spouse for marital satisfaction. the amount is up to the individual.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Personally, I don't think that a man should get sex every single time he wants it. I've said no to my husband before and he didn't have an emotional breakdown. BUT, men are sensitive when it comes to sex. Being told "No" more times than they're told "Yes" makes them feel rejected. Rejection sucks.
> 
> If I asked my husband to give me a kiss ten times in a week, and he said no eight of those times, I would eventually just stop asking to be kissed. Or, if he kissed me all of those times and they were mere pecks on the cheek, I would eventually stop asking. I would wonder, "Does he not love me? Am I not attractive enough to kiss anymore? What did I do to make him not want me?" I would be willing to bet that men feel the same when their wives either say no to their sexual advances more than they say yes, or they say yes often but never fully participate.
> 
> It's one thing to say "No". It's an entirely different thing when "No" is the more common answer.


Very well put C2W. Great post, especially the last paragraph.



LittleBird said:


> It seems to me if that if I say no every time I don't want to, I'm a *****.
> 
> Rightly so, marriage is a compromise, right?
> 
> ...


If you are a ***** for saying no once in a while, you better marry someone else. As I have said, and other men in this thread have said, getting a no once in a while isn't a huge deal. Getting told no repeatedly is.

Also, showing enthusiasm isn't some magical place. You'll learn that as a parent. When your kid brings home an ugly as sin mothers day present and wants you put it on the fridge for everyone to see, odds are you don't want to. But you'll say that it is simply the best art gift you've ever received, put it on the fridge, say you love it to death and put on a huge smile as you hug your child. There's a big difference between that and "Oh.... yeah, thanks. So how long do I have to keep this on the fridge?"

As for the rest of your post, you are just arguing to agrue and frankly (who in this thread said if you don't try anal you are a *****?), if that is how you feel about relationships, why be in one? Dump your fiancee and only have sex when you NEED it, assuming you can find someone who also magically aligns with you and needs it at the exact same time you do.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> It seems to me if that if I say no every time I don't want to, I'm a *****.


Could be. If everytime you don't want to is every time, then you probably are.



> Rightly so, marriage is a compromise, right?


Compromise means both side giving a bit. How is you on;y doing something when you want to a compromise?



> But if I say yes, but it doesn't come from whatever magical land he wants it to be coming from that night, I'm also a *****.


Not at all. But if it always does not come from that magical land, there is an issue.



> So if I say yes and I'm consistent and enthusiastic but I don't want to try anal when he gets bored with my vagina after 20 years, I'm also a ***** for not "trying to meet him halfway."


No, that is not correct.



> Honestly, I see it as a no win for the person who wants it less.
> 
> It's ceiling tiles or being cheated on or left from what I've read here.
> 
> I do WANT it just not the same WAY he does. Sex for me is "oh wow look at how much fun he's having, how sweet."


I am at a loss. You either don't read what we have posted, or just want to be put upon. Based on your other thread, I suspect you are most comfortable in the victim role, so have no interest in real discussion. Rather, you will continue to set up arguments not being made so you can shoot them down and justify how men are just awful sex animals. Your marriage does need luck.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> In the immortal words of teenage girls everywhere
> 
> "Whatever"


That says it all. :sleeping:


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> It seems to me if that if I say no every time I don't want to, I'm a *****.
> 
> Rightly so, marriage is a compromise, right?


Some women don't actually "want" sex more than once a month, or sometimes less. Should the man just accept that his wife is never going to have sex with him more often than that?

What if the husband decided he was only going to tell his wife he loved her once a month? 



> But if I say yes, but it doesn't come from whatever magical land he wants it to be coming from that night, I'm also a *****.


?? Where is this coming from? Using exaggerations and overstatements like this make conversation near to impossible.



> So if I say yes and I'm consistent and enthusiastic but I don't want to try anal when he gets bored with my vagina after 20 years, I'm also a ***** for not "trying to meet him halfway."


Where has anyone said that a woman should try anal? I, personally, refuse to try anal until I want to. My husband knows this, and he respects it. Anal sex can be incredibly painful(and IS for me), so he understands that that choice is MINE. However, vaginal sex is not the same. It's not painful, so why would I make him follow my schedule? 

My need is Admiration. (From _His Needs, Her Needs._) I expect for that need to be met, in some way, every other day. It could be a mere, "I'm proud of what you did in the gym this week", or "You're such a great woman." Just like my husband expects something sexual; a make out session, a blow job, a hand job, or full on sex. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It's absolutely normal.



> Honestly, I see it as a no win for the person who wants it less.
> 
> It's ceiling tiles or being cheated on or left from what I've read here.


*That's because sex is incredibly important*. If a man chose not to talk to his wife for a month, would the relationship survive? To a man, sex is love. When his wife says no more often than she says yes, the message he gets is that she doesn't love him any more, or nearly as much, as she did before. 



> I do WANT it just not the same WAY he does. Sex for me is "oh wow look at how much fun he's having, how sweet."


This saddens me. Sex for me is one of the greatest expressions of love and trust and friendship that we could partake in.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My point is that sex is a need in a relationship.
> 
> But if you were somehow on an island where you couldn't have sex from that "male need" thing you mentioned, what would happen? Would you implode?
> 
> ...


I'm saying it is a need in a relationship as well. Of course it's not a need like food and water.

That said, so many things in your scenario aren't needs anymore that some (many) people would say are need, like a job, security, pay of bills, family, friends, even basic stuff liek TV and the internet.

When you get off the lonely island and back into everyday life where everyone in this thread is at, a lot, if not all, of those things become needs again. Sex as well.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> For an individual, no. Sex is not a need. To maintain the intimacy in a relationship it is absolutely a need.
> 
> Roses are not a need. Love letters are not a need. Positive affirmation is not a need. Cuddling isn't a need. Talking isn't a need. Friendship isn't a need. Trust, honesty, openness aren't needs. But would a relationship last without those things? Would it be happy?



The two Alexanders (Solzhenitsyn and Dolgun) each described an interrogation technique that was used under Stalin and is still popular today. The subject is put into solitary confinement and deprived of all human contact for months. Then they're placed in a cell with another human being.

I can't remember the exact Russian term for what happens next, but it roughly translates to 'Verbal diarrhea'. The *need* to communicate with another human being has built up to the point where all inhibitions are gone and they confide everything to their cellmate. The cellmate is (Of course) an informer who relays the information. 

Humans have other needs beside the objective and material. Interrogation techniques like this wouldn't work if that were not the case.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Very well put C2W. Great post, especially the last paragraph.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, relax.

I'm on your side. 

I realize the majority of you don't think like that.

I aslo realize you may not realize just how much effort it takes some people to have sex often enough and in the way you want to fulfill you.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

airbabe said:


> And if men didn't have so many, it would be a lot easier to over look the fact that many men (possibly most) are just a terrible flop in bed.


 What an absolutely terrible thing to say...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Man there are a lot of anti sex women on this thread who have no business holding a man on lockdown.


----------



## 41362 (Dec 14, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> In the immortal words of teenage girls everywhere
> 
> "Whatever"


Sadly, that is quite telling.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Could be. If everytime you don't want to is every time, then you probably are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think her abuse when younger has affected her more than she wants to admit. It has caused her to think of sex as a 'bad thing'. That men just want to [email protected] and it doesn't matter to them what hole it is in or who the hole belongs to. 


In reality, for most men, that are in love with their partners, it is much deeper than that.

Her issue is that she is faking it. And she knows she can't fake it forever. She is worried that once she can no longer fake it, her hubby will cheat or dump her.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Could be. If everytime you don't want to is every time, then you probably are.
> 
> I am at a loss. You either don't read what we have posted, or just want to be put upon. Based on your other thread, I suspect you are most comfortable in the victim role, so have no interest in real discussion. Rather, you will continue to set up arguments not being made so you can shoot them down and justify how men are just awful sex animals. Your marriage does need luck.



The same could go for every word that you are writing. Just because she doesn't agree with your words or thoughts now she is playing the victim. She isn't setting up arguments she is speaking how she feels and her opinions. Do I and others think that some people are awful sex animals that answer would be a yes.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm not saying that, dear.
> 
> I'm asking why a woman having sex out of love and not lust is somehow a bad thing or not "good enough?"


And for the I don't know how manyith time, men aren't saying it's not good enough.

What we are saying is that if all you do is constantly (IE regularly) lie back, stare at the ceiling and give us the vibe that you want us to hurry up (or just tell us to hurry up) we don't get what we need from sex.

At all.

If you are having sex for love then you have to convey that it's for love, not just another chore on your to do list.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Unfortunately,
It's also a true thing
And women are typically the victims
I honestly think that's sad.

Not only do they have to have sex however many times a week, they have to have bad sex that many times and pretend to enjoy it...
And if they don't enjoy it, or seem to at least, they're branded as nuns

The double standard is maddening.



Created2Write said:


> What an absolutely terrible thing to say...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Some women don't actually "want" sex more than once a month, or sometimes less. Should the man just accept that his wife is never going to have sex with him more often than that?
> 
> What if the husband decided he was only going to tell his wife he loved her once a month?
> 
> ...


I don't like sex. At all. 

But I have it every time he wants to and I've not no problem with it.

I like that HE likes it.

But there are many, may men who'd say that isn't enough because I'm not enjoying it from a physical stand point. Having sex with him makes him a nicer person to be around- that's what I like.

And I don't lie there like a log either. In fact, I initiate sometimes. 

What exactly am I supposed to do here?

Go die alone? :scratchhead:


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Man there are a lot of anti sex women on this thread who have no business holding a man on lockdown.


My husband can leave anytime he wants. This isn't Alcatraz!


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Not without cost.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Could be. If everytime you don't want to is every time, then you probably are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was it not said that "most men find sex coming from anything other than horny to be a turn off?"

I have no ****ing interest in being the victim, if I wanted to be the victim I'd be a refuser.

Which fyi, I'm not.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I felt like I needed more info about the thread, so I'm going to bring back some posts I find interesting and comment.



LittleBird said:


> I understand there is an intimate side to sex but every time a man wants sex, there isn't emotion behind it. He's just good ol' fashioned horny, which is totally fine, but you can't get mad a woman for not being horny in the same way you are.


I disagree. Men can get erections throughout the day for no reason at all, horny or not. But in a committed relationship, when a man pursues his wife for sex, while much of that pursuit is physical, there is usually SOME emotion behind it. Otherwise, he wouldn't be disappointed when he'd refused.



> You poke her in the back with your morning wood and she says no.
> 
> Problem.


The issue here isn't sex, though. Sometimes women need more connection than just realizing her husband has a hard-on. But, sometimes men need to know that their wives can respond to that too, and want him as much as he wants her. There have been times when my husband has poked me with his wood and I've said, "Okay, but I want to take it slowly. Woo me." He did, and thirty minutes later, I was ravaging him so much he could hardly contain himself. It's totally fine to tell your man what you need from him so that the experience can be enjoyable for you too.



> Same scenario but she says yes but it's clear she isn't DYING for it.
> 
> Also a problem.


It is, but the problem isn't with him. Saying "yes" and then not making any effort to enjoy it is the problem, and not communicating what you need from him is also a problem.



> Where is the win? At what point does get it right? Genuine
> concern.
> 
> For instance, I hate morning sex. But I was told it was selfish of me to never give him morning sex. So fine, if I give it to him it won't be cause I have a physical desire to do it. It's like a no win.


I don't like morning sex, either. My husband's breath is horrible enough as it is, but in the morning it's the worst. I've told him that if he wants morning sex, we'll both need to brush our teeth first. He said, "Okay" and that is the ritual we practice. Just saying "yes" and accepting something when you're unhappy is unhealthy for you AND him. He can't fix something he doesn't know is an issue, and he can't read your mind.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I believe you were previously directed to a nunnery....



:rofl:


LittleBird said:


> I don't like sex. At all.
> 
> But I have it every time he wants to and I've not no problem with it.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I don't like sex. At all.
> 
> But I have it every time he wants to and I've not no problem with it.
> 
> ...


How can you say you have no problem having sex with him when you don't like sex at all? I genuinely feel bad for you 

There are men with little to no drive. maybe you wouldn't feel so compromised with such a pairing.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> I don't like sex. At all.
> 
> But I have it every time he wants to and I've not no problem with it.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I think you need therapy. 

You need to find out why you don't feel connected to your partner through making love. Why you don't enjoy it! You are missing out on a very special part of what your relationship should be and you are fooling your partner into believing that what he is feeling (a deep emotional connection with you) is real.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Not being horny whenever your partner wants sex does not mean you are not suited to be in a relationship.
> That's just.... stupid. I'm sorry.
> And it doesn't even make a little sense.
> 
> ...


Obviously. Individuals are different and respond to situations differently.



> Just a couple of nights ago, I woke up from a sexy dream horny and ready to go.
> Its 2am,my husband has to get up at 6. But I kinda wake him up, rub him enough to get him erect and have him f*ck me till I was, um, done. Then he went back to sleep, he didn't even orgasm or remember it the next morning lol.
> 
> That was totally out of love, duty, whatever. And I didn't pout and cry the next day because it didn't seem "into it". I was happy that he's "into me" enough to provide for me, even when he'snot particularly excited about doing it.
> ...


My husband would have jumped me the moment I was rubbing him, so to each their own.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> If I ask my fiancé to do the dishes, he half ass does it and I usually have to go behind him and do it.
> 
> But of course, he's gonna want sex that night for "helping" me and I'd be a huge ***** if I said no, cause he tried right? And you can't withhold sex over dishes, how petty right? He did his job.
> 
> ...


Maybe try giving 100% in the bedroom for a week or two, and see if that effects his dish washing abilities.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> And for the I don't know how manyith time, men aren't saying it's not good enough.
> 
> What we are saying is that if all you do is constantly (IE regularly) lie back, stare at the ceiling and give us the vibe that you want us to hurry up (or just tell us to hurry up) we don't get what we need from sex.
> 
> ...


If he wants sex and I don't, I give it to him because I love him.

Does the fact that she's doing something she could take or leave not convey love? 

I'm honestly not trying to be contrary here.

( I like you)


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JoeHenderson said:


> How can you say you have no problem having sex with him when you don't like sex at all? I genuinely feel bad for you
> 
> There are men with little to no drive. maybe you wouldn't feel so compromised with such a pairing.


I love HIM.

I don't want anyone else. 

If he wants sex, if sex is important to him, I will give it to him and gladly.

Whether I like it or not.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Ok, relax.
> 
> I'm on your side.
> 
> ...


Which in turn says that you should be in a relationship with someone who is more compatable with you sexually.

I mean, if you think it'll work out, great, and I hope it does. It just won't come as any shock to me if you're sexual output drops down to where you want it to be in a few years, while your husband joins us on TAM wonder what mind**** he just went through.



SadSamIAm said:


> I think her abuse when younger has affected her more than she wants to admit. It has caused her to think of sex as a 'bad thing'. That men just want to [email protected] and it doesn't matter to them what hole it is in or who the hole belongs to.
> 
> 
> In reality, for most men, that are in love with their partners, it is much deeper than that.
> ...


My fiancee felt that way towards men when we first got together. She was abused at 14, and virtually every man she was involved with sexually was really just after a piece of tail. Even her ex-husband did some pretty rotten things to her.

So after a few months of us dating, the sex had dropped off. To like once every two weeks, well below where I wanted it at (notice I said wanted LB?  ) So we had a talk and yep, she basically said that all I wanted was to get my rocks off, that I'm just "a typical man" and the usual BS. I don't blame her though because that's all she had known. It took a few years to actually convince her otherwise, and I was only able to do that through day after day repetition of being who I am. It took a long time for her to see it wasn't just some act I was playing to get in her pants. As a result our sex life has imporved. Not quite to where I'm 100% satisfied, but greatly improved from where it was.

Maybe LB you just need to understand that not all men are running around with their ****s hanging out hunting for a hole to stick it in. Rather we care very much about the person that hole comes with, we love that person, and want to make that person very happy and hope they make us very happy as well, sexually and otherwise. So, when you lie back and count the tiles, not only is that not what we want, we also know we aren't making you happy either, so we feel like we're failing on several fronts, even if we are getting 'sex'.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Unfortunately,
> It's also a true thing
> And women are typically the victims
> I honestly think that's sad.
> ...


So why not try and make sex more enjoyable? Introduce toys? Gently tell the poor guy, who has absolutely no idea he's not satisfying enough but is being punished for it? 

I honestly couldn't imagine being unsatisfied by my husband, and I seriously doubt that most men in this world are terrible lovers. I think the more likely issue is that women like to find excuses to get sympathy.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I didn't need to get jumped, I just wanted to be f*cked lol
And my husband was the perfect one to do that for me at 2am

And I was even able to enjoy it, without him dripping with lust
He did it out of love and that was perfect



Created2Write said:


> Obviously. Individuals are different and respond to situations differently.
> 
> 
> My husband would have jumped me the moment I was rubbing him, so to each their own.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> I love HIM.
> 
> I don't want anyone else.
> 
> ...


This won't last forever. You can't fake it forever.

Your fiance is going to be very surprised to one day find out that you never liked having sex with him, best you tell him now.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I don't like sex. At all.
> 
> But I have it every time he wants to and I've not no problem with it.
> 
> ...


Sex isn't meant to be one-sided. It's meant to be mutual, which is why we have a clitoris. I don't know enough about your or your fiance, so I don't know what you're supposed to do. But, being a married woman, the last thing I would suggest for you to do at this point would be to get married. Perhaps your fiance is fine now, but even five years down the road, he may get a rude awakening. 

And I'm not trying to insult you. I just put a very high priority on sex in marriage and I have a hard time accepting when a man or woman doesn't want sex or doesn't like sex wants to get married. I don't think they fully understand the gravity of the situation.

If your fiance is satisfied though, then...to each their own.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If he wants sex and I don't, I give it to him because I love him.
> 
> Does the fact that she's doing something she could take or leave not convey love?
> 
> ...


It may. I don't know how you are with him. If you are smiling, happy, gleeful, etc. then yes, that conveys love. If you are just lying there like a pillow, no.

As I said before, it's all in the enthusiasm you display.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> This won't last forever. You can't fake it forever.
> 
> Your fiance is going to be very surprised to one day find out that you never liked having sex with him, best you tell him now.


It's not my fault that ability to physically enjoyed it has been botched forever.

I do a great many things for my fiancé, including sleep with him (with enthusiasm and love). 

I really don't think I deserve to lose him because I don't physically enjoy sex....he loved me before we started having sex. So why would me not "enjoying" it now change that...?


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

aribabe said:


> And if men didn't have so many, it would be a lot easier to over look the fact that many men (possibly most) are just a terrible flop in bed.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





aribabe said:


> Unfortunately,
> It's also a true thing
> And women are typically the victims
> I honestly think that's sad.
> ...


What is your sample size on which you base these conclusions?

With such an anti-men attitude, I'm not surprised you are dissatisfied.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's not my fault that ability to physically enjoyed it has been botched forever.


You make think this now, but counseling may change that. You owe it to yourself and your man to try it. You have no idea what you're missing out on. The bond between you two could be improved immensely!


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

But why would women need sympathy, and from whom would they want it? Lol
Its not illegal to say no to sex. And it's definitely not immoral to say no to sex with an awful lay :rofl:
I would surely say no. Lol
And it would be out of self preservation, not punishment.


Toys will never make a man that's bad in bed, good in bed.
And with this prevelant porn culture.... men simply don't know how to be arousing to women.
They take their cues from John CumHard and Bill BigD!ck, and women are left trying to figure out how to break a man of years of "the harder I f*ck her, the better it'll be" type thinking.

And with their egos, its not easy for most women to do that.
And that's not women's fault.



Created2Write said:


> So why not try and make sex more enjoyable? Introduce toys? Gently tell the poor guy, who has absolutely no idea he's not satisfying enough but is being punished for it?
> 
> I honestly couldn't imagine being unsatisfied by my husband, and I seriously doubt that most men in this world are terrible lovers. I think the more likely issue is that women like to find excuses to get sympathy.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> It's not my fault that ability to physically enjoyed it has been botched forever.
> 
> I do a great many things for my fiancé, including sleep with him (with enthusiasm and love).
> 
> I really don't think I deserve to lose him because I don't physically enjoy sex....he loved me before we started having sex. So why would me not "enjoying" it now change that...?


All I am saying is that you need to be honest with him. He needs to know that you don't enjoy it. 

I don't believe that you are 'botched forever'. There are many people who have been abused, and have gone through therapy and have gone on to having a normal enjoyable sexual relationship.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

aribabe said:


> But why would women need sympathy, and from whom would they want it? Lol
> Its not illegal to say no to sex. And it's definitely not immoral to say no to sex with an awful lay :rofl:
> I would surely say no. Lol
> And it would be out of self preservation, not punishment.
> ...


can some men be educated on what their partner might like? i've always wanted know, but my W has often felt self-conscious during these conversations. 

So is it possible that SOME men are bad lovers in part to Porn Culture and SOME women having difficulty communicating what gets them off due to fear of not appearing as a LADY (a culture-driven fear)?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> But why would women need sympathy, and from whom would they want it? Lol


You would be surprised the lengths that women can go to just for some attention and pity. Women are far from perfect, and from my experience, are just as stubborn and selfish as any man I know. Maybe even more so.



> Its not illegal to say no to sex. And it's definitely not immoral to say no to sex with an awful lay :rofl:
> I would surely say no. Lol
> And it would be out of self preservation, not punishment.


If you're not satisfied with the man, then don't have sex with him again. Why marry someone, or date someone, and continue to have sex with them if they're not satisfying? Why not find someone who IS satisfying to you? Imo, there are women who simply enjoy punishing men. I'm not saying anyone in this thread is that way, just that I do not understand being with someone who doesn't sexually satisfy you, even if they're a great person all around.

LittleBird said earlier that there are more important things in the relationship than sex. I disagree with this. I believe that sex is one of the most important things in a relationship. Without it, most marriages will crumble. Is it illegal to say no to sex? No. But for the sake of the marriage, I believe it CAN be wrong.



> Toys will never make a man that's bad in bed, good in bed.
> And with this prevelant porn culture.... men simply don't know how to be arousing to women.
> They take their cues from John CumHard and Bill BigD!ck, and women are left trying to figure out how to break a man of years of "the harder I f*ck her, the better it'll be" type thinking.
> 
> ...


No. But how she approaches the subject can be. If most men really are as bad at sex as you say they are, then women have utterly failed in their responsibilities to help and that IS their fault. 

I seriously doubt that most men suffer from being bad in bed. I doubt you've had sex with enough men to qualify to make such a statement anyway.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol
I'm not anti men
I love the men in my life
I've got a fab sex life and husband with a big d*ck. 
I am probably one of the most satisfied women I know.
And that's a shame.

Talking with my girfriends about their loves lives, they all seem to say practically the same things.
That their husband/boyfriends/one night stand's seem to have no idea how to please a woman.



jaharthur said:


> What is your sample size on which you base these conclusions?
> 
> With such an anti-men attitude, I'm not surprised you are dissatisfied.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I love HIM.
> 
> I don't want anyone else.
> 
> ...


I understand you love him. I'm just concerned that you could tire out from loving him the way he wants to be loved. i hope the two of you can work this out.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Love is NOT the most important thing in marriage. Marriage takes honesty, trust, open communication, love, friendship; and *sex* is one of the main things that maintains those things. Without sex, marriages fall apart, but it isn't because men want too much sex and are too selfish. In my opinion it's because women simply do not comprehend how important sex is to men, and how important it _should_ be to them too. So many women seem to think that sex is just a man's thing, when it isn't. Sex should be important to both people. If it isn't, I get highly concerned.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Love is NOT the most important thing in marriage. Marriage takes honesty, trust, open communication, love, friendship; and *sex* is one of the main things that maintains those things. Without sex, marriages fall apart, but it isn't because men want too much sex and are too selfish. In my opinion it's because women simply do not comprehend how important sex is to men, and how important it _should_ be to them too. So many women seem to think that sex is just a man's thing, when it isn't. Sex should be important to both people. If it isn't, I get highly concerned.


I know it's important to him.

That's why I do it. I don't need to enjoy it. I enjoy other things he does for me and he enjoys sex. People just like different things.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Talking with my girfriends about their loves lives, they all seem to say practically the same things.
> That their husband/*boyfriends/one night stand's* seem to have no idea how to please a woman.


I'm not going to speak for other men, but the way I ****ed one night stands and the way I make love to my Wife are completely different. It takes a long time to get to know one another sexually. Still learning!


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> All I am saying is that you need to be honest with him. He needs to know that you don't enjoy it.
> 
> I don't believe that you are 'botched forever'. There are many people who have been abused, and have gone through therapy and have gone on to having a normal enjoyable sexual relationship.


I don't enjoy the penetration sensation.

I have no problems with touch ( I walk around butt ass naked half the time) 

I think it's just my anatomy.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

But that's what I'm asking...
Who are they getting this attention and pity from?
It's not their husbands clearly.
Their husbands don't care and they're certainly not taking pity on their wives because she "has" to have bad sex with him.

I don't even know how that conversation would go lol
"Baby, I really don't think you are a satisfying lover...."
"Aww, honey, I'm so sorry you have to go through that"

And I'm honestly confused by what you're referring to as punishment...
Turning down bad sex punishes whom?
If my husband decided he wanted to start biting my clitoris during sex (as some men apparently like to do, WTF?!?), i'd start to turn him down, and it wouldn't have anything to do with punishment.
Self preservation.

Many (maybe most) men ARE bad lovers and it's not women fault.
Women aren't the gate keepers of male sexuality.
With most men experiencing "sex" for the first time with a woman who is paid to enjoy everything a man does, men create their own standards of sexuality.
So if their wives aren't screeching, screaming,writhing, pulling down lamps, deep throating, swallowing cum, trying every move in the karma sutra like their "first woman" did. Then they decide their wives aren't into it, or them.
That's not women's fault.



Created2Write said:


> You would be surprised the lengths that women can go to just for some attention and pity. Women are far from perfect, and from my experience, are just as stubborn and selfish as any man I know. Maybe even more so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

aribabe said:


> That their husband/boyfriends/one night stand's seem to have no idea how to please a woman.


I can kinda see what you're saying here. It's not a perfect parallel, but in tactical shooting and CCW courses, women are often better students than the men because the men have to unlearn some of the goofy ideas they've picked up from action movies first. 

The solution is simply a good teacher


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> But that's what I'm asking...
> Who are they getting this attention and pity from?
> It's not their husbands clearly.
> Their husbands don't care and they're certainly not taking pity on their wives because she "has" to have bad sex with him.


Pity from other women, obviously. 



> I don't even know how that conversation would go lol
> "Baby, I really don't think you are a satisfying lover...."
> "Aww, honey, I'm so sorry you have to go through that"


This is the problem. Women are more concerned with themselves than the men they're with, that they can't even take the time to figure out _how_ to engage in such a conversation. For my husband and I it's pretty simple; he does something I don't like, I say, "Don't do that. I don't like it". End of story. 

It's not that complicated.



> And I'm honestly confused by what you're referring to as punishment...
> Turning down bad sex punishes whom?


It punishes the man who doesn't know his wife isn't satisfied with him! I mean, seriously. Women aren't the only people in this world who deserve a satisfying, happy, healthy, honest sex life. 



> If my husband decided he wanted to start biting my clitoris during sex (as some men apparently like to do, WTF?!?), i'd start to turn him down, and it wouldn't have anything to do with punishment.
> Self preservation.


Why wouldn't you just say, "I don't like it when you bite my clitoris?" Why is the first resort to deny sex? THAT is what confuses me.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

But pity from other women doesn't make their husbands any better in bed...?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something?

It is that complicated, unfortunately.
Men have the frailest of egos, and are sooo defensive in regards to their sexual prowess.
It's evident right here on TAM
A husband complained that his wife didn't seem aroused, and always needed synthetic lubrication...
I commented that it was possible that he was not arousing her.
The uproar my comment caused was certainly disproportionant to what I would expect from a man who's wife was clearly not turned on by him.
But my suggestion was shot down with no consideration

Most wives suggestions are also shut down with no consideration.
That's not the wife's fault.

To me, biting my clitoris would be the eqivalent of my husband abusing me.
And if he abused me, I wouldn't say "babe, could you stop abusing me, thanks" 
I'd just call the police

And if he ever bit my clitoris
That would be the last time his face would get that close to it.
No conversation needed



Created2Write said:


> Pity from other women, obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

aribabe said:


> But pity from other women doesn't make their husbands any better in bed...?
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something?
> 
> It is that complicated, unfortunately.
> ...


Not all men. I might also have a frail ego, but i also pride myself in being a good listener and willing learner. i'm sure there are others like me, too.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

oh and i would also find it sexy if my W was assertive to tell me what she wanted in bed.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> But pity from other women doesn't make their husbands any better in bed...?
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something?


The pity isn't about getting help for their husbands. It's about themselves. 



> It is that complicated, unfortunately.
> Men have the frailest of egos, and are sooo defensive in regards to their sexual prowess.


Of course they are. It would be like a man telling his wife that she's not awesome enough to do romantic things for. A woman would be defensive too. At least I would. But that doesn't mean that the truth should kept from them. If a woman really is making it difficult on her husband to show her love, then she should know it. Otherwise, how can she fix herself? If a man really is terrible in bed, he deserves to know. 

And what's the alternative? Putting up with bad sex? Saying no more often than yes? No, the best option is to be honest. As difficult as it may be, and hard as it may be for the man to hear, he deserves to know. Even if it starts with, "Baby, you know what really turns me on? Instead of moving your tongue like that, and instead of biting my clitoris, it drives me wild when you're really gentle and you move your tongue this way instead. Biting actually hurts, okay?" Not hard, and guess what? Not offensive to the guy!



> It's evident right here on TAM
> A husband complained that his wife didn't seem aroused, and always needed synthetic lubrication...
> I commented that it was possible that he was not arousing her.
> The uproar my comment caused was certainly disproportionant to what I would expect from a man who's wife was clearly not turned on by him.
> But my suggestion was shot down with no consideration


Of course it was! The wife has been dishonest and cowardly by not voicing up her dissatisfaction beforehand. And really, it isn't hard to say, "This is what turns me on, and this doesn't". It really isn't. I think most men might be a little embarrassed at first, but I think a lot of them are strong enough to take it and change. 



> Most wives suggestions are also shut down with no consideration.
> That's not the wife's fault.


It IS if she refuses to be honest right up front. It IS if she chooses to blame him instead of telling him what turns her on. Most men aren't born wild, crazy awesome sex buddies. No two women like the same thing, and if they had more than one partner, how are they supposed to know what turns their wives on and what doesn't if the wives don't communicate? 

And even if a husband did get upset over his wife's suggestions, it's better to say it and get it out there than to just not have sex with the guy. 



> To me, biting my clitoris would be the eqivalent of my husband abusing me.
> And if he abused me, I wouldn't say "babe, could you stop abusing me, thanks"
> I'd just call the police


Seriously? That is MESSED UP. Some women like it! How is the husband supposed to know that his wife doesn't like it *if she doesn't tell him?* Men can not read minds, as much as women like to think they can. They can't. They need honesty and communication.

That would be one hilarious phone call. "911 What's your emergency?"
"My husband bit my clitoris!"
"......" 



> And if he ever bit my clitoris
> That would be the last time his face would get that close to it.
> No conversation needed


It could have been a freaking mistake! It's one thing if a man hits a woman. No mistake there. But some women enjoy it when a man bites their clitoris. Some women enjoy anal. A one time mistake like that isn't abuse. Continuing to do once it's been made clear, "I don't like that at all", that can be. But one time? I mean come on. No wonder women aren't satisfied with their men. They don't communicate, and then blame the man for continuing to do things they don't like. 

That IS the woman's fault.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> But why would women need sympathy, and from whom would they want it? Lol
> Its not illegal to say no to sex. And it's definitely not immoral to say no to sex with an awful lay :rofl:
> I would surely say no. Lol
> And it would be out of self preservation, not punishment.
> ...


Do you EVER post anything that isn't a gross overgeneralization?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Talking with my girfriends about their loves lives, they all seem to say practically the same things.
> That their husband/boyfriends/one night stand's seem to have no idea how to please a woman.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Could be that says as much about your friends as it does about their men.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm still not getting it?
The woman gets pity
Then she sill has to go sleep with John BiteHerClit
In what way is the pity benefical?

I don't know if not being "awesome enough" to do romantic things for is even kind of in the ball park of sexuality. Women literally have to allow men into their bodies, and men have the audacity to have an ego over that? Ludicrous.

Men absolutely deserve to know if they're bad in bed. But they don't want to hear it. I say it right here and I'm just some anonymous house wife, and the men get their panties all in a bunch. I can only imagine the responses their wives get when she tries to say "a little slower please" or "missionary feels best" or "I don't like giving/getting oral". He's thinking Jane DoublePenetration liked it just fine, my wives a prude/boring/not lusty.

The wives are stuck between a rock and hard place.

She says she likes it slow and non acrobatic and non oral, she's called a prude. She gives in to his desires and "puts up with it" and she's called boring and non lusty, and dutiful (which is negative, of course).

No win for the wife.

And if you can show me a woman who wants her clitoris bitten.
I'll show you a pig that sh*ts buterflies.



Created2Write said:


> The pity isn't about getting help for their husbands. It's about themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Cletus, don't join the buched panties brigade hun
If you think you're good in bed, that's good enough.



Cletus said:


> Do you EVER post anything that isn't a gross overgeneralization?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

LittleBird, I have followed your reasoning with interest. 

I get the difficulties you talk about, and I don't really care whether sex is a need or a want. What I am saying to you is that your fiancé has expectations based on your current behaviour, and when that behaviour changes, as you have pretty much admitted it will, there is a good chance he will not take it well. He may be unfaithful, he may divorce you, or you may find yourself cohabiting with an iceberg.

Do you want any of those things?

If not, my suggestion is, start talking NOW. Start working on it NOW. Because open, trusting communication is a rare gift, that overcomes so many other problems.

For example, you said, if it goes from twice a day to once every second day, no big deal, right? That is a 75% cut. Three quarters of what he expects being taken away. To me that would be a big deal.

You don't need to accept what I write. I am happy to discuss it, but not really interested in arguing the point.

Or will your response as he is walking out the door be "but it wasn't a need"?


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Personally, I don't think that a man should get sex every single time he wants it. I've said no to my husband before and he didn't have an emotional breakdown. BUT, men are sensitive when it comes to sex. Being told "No" more times than they're told "Yes" makes them feel rejected. Rejection sucks.
> 
> If I asked my husband to give me a kiss ten times in a week, and he said no eight of those times, I would eventually just stop asking to be kissed. Or, if he kissed me all of those times and they were mere pecks on the cheek, I would eventually stop asking. I would wonder, "Does he not love me? Am I not attractive enough to kiss anymore? What did I do to make him not want me?" I would be willing to bet that men feel the same when their wives either say no to their sexual advances more than they say yes, or they say yes often but never fully participate.
> 
> It's one thing to say "No". It's an entirely different thing when "No" is the more common answer.


Madame, I agree completely with what you write here. You elucidated your thoughts perfectly within only 12 lines of words. Wonderful. If this concept of:



> BUT, men are sensitive when it comes to sex. Being told "No" more times than they're told "Yes" makes them feel rejected. Rejection sucks..


is understood and avoided in most marriages (undoubtedly b because it was being accepted beforehand), then divorce lawyers and marriage counsellors will not make as much money as they are now.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

aribabe said:


> I'm still not getting it?
> I can only imagine the responses their wives get when she tries to say "a little slower please" or "missionary feels best"
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She gets, "sure thing, baby." there's an opportunity for rough doggy-style sex another time, which she has requested previously.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wazza said:


> LittleBird, I have followed your reasoning with interest.
> 
> I get the difficulties you talk about, and I don't really care whether sex is a need or a want. What I am saying to you is that your fiancé has expectations based on your current behaviour, and when that behaviour changes, as you have pretty much admitted it will, there is a good chance he will not take it well. He may be unfaithful, he may divorce you, or you may find yourself cohabiting with an iceberg.
> 
> ...


My father left my mother over sex. It wouldn't be anything new.

He wanted a 25 year old when was 40, so he just left.

I learned from her. I won't make that mistake.

Stay pretty and keep putting out. God willing I can keep this up.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I know it's important to him.
> 
> That's why I do it. I don't need to enjoy it. I enjoy other things he does for me and he enjoys sex. People just like different things.


You do not understand intimacy, bonding and the fact that a healthy, balanced sex life is vital for longevity in a relationship.

No you don't need to enjoy it but you do need to be a better person and let your partner find someone else that does enjoy it, you can then go and find a man that is on the same page as you.

You have said he loves sex, you hate it. Where is the compatibility in that?

Sex is not a hobby. I don't like camping but I go every once in awhile to be with him. It makes no difference to our relationship if I don't love camping, he can go alone or with others and this in no way lessens the bond we have.

But if I did not enjoy our sex life and refused to participate enthusiastically and lovingly then that would break us. Sure he can have solo sex but how is that building a bond with me? 

You must be on the same page with your sex life, if not you may as well prepare for divorce before you marry him.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> You do not understand intimacy, bonding and the fact that a healthy, balanced sex life is vital for longevity in a relationship.
> 
> No you don't need to enjoy it but you do need to be a better person and let your partner find someone else that does enjoy it, you can then go and find a man that is on the same page as you.
> 
> ...


Nobody said I wasn't enthusiastic.

You don't like your kid's crappy art drawings but you love them, so you still put them on your fridge.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

aribabe said:


> And women are women. I guess. I don't know...
> *But I DO know that women don't have nearly as many sexual expectations as men*
> And if men didn't have so many, it would be a lot easier to over look the fact that many men (possibly most) are just a terrible flop in bed.
> 
> ...


No you don't know that and you do not speak for all women.

I have some different expectations to my partner but generally we have very similar expectations. But that is because we are compatible.

The way you talk about men and sex is a very narrow POV, it may be your experience but it is not mine. To say that most men are bad lovers is such an unacceptable thing to say. You are making some pretty gross, unfounded exaggerations.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My father left my mother over sex. It wouldn't be anything new.
> 
> He wanted a 25 year old when was 40, so he just left.
> 
> ...


LB, you are not your mother. Your fiance is not your father. Not every man is an ass like your father. Some are in it for the long haul. You have no control over what happens to you as you age. 

"Stay pretty" you said... God forbid, what happens if you are scarred in a car accident? I remember you said something about being a model... likely, you won't have the work you once did, but do you really think that the man who truly loves you would leave you because you are scarred or walk with a limp? "Keep putting out" you said... and what happens if you are physically incapable of having sex? I mean physically incapable, not just that you don't like it. Unfortunately, LB, even "staying pretty" and "keep putting out" will only get you so far with a real man. A shallow man won't care. But someone who truly cares will eventually see through it and wonder how much of the relationship was really a lie. I feel sorry for you. I truly do. You had a very bad example of marriage when you were growing up and then the abuse you endured.... And now, you wrap your happiness up in another person. That's not healthy either. But, you are determined to go about this relationship this way. I wish you luck. I really think you're going to need it.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Nobody said I wasn't enthusiastic


How enthusiastic can someone get when they hate something? :scratchhead:


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My father left my mother over sex. It wouldn't be anything new.
> 
> He wanted a 25 year old when was 40, so he just left.
> 
> ...


But if you talk it can be so much better...for you as well as him.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> How enthusiastic can someone get when they hate something? :scratchhead:


You would be QUITE surprised.

I've had a lotta practice. 

And also...I mean, I enjoy feeling close to him. Sex doesn't turn my stomach or anything, I just hate the constant suffocating pressure that I *know* he's gonna want to do again tonight.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> You would be QUITE surprised.
> 
> I've had a lotta practice.
> 
> And also...I mean, I enjoy feeling close to him. Sex doesn't turn my stomach or anything, I just hate the constant suffocating pressure that I *know* he's gonna want to do again tonight.


It sounds like you're performing an act, not experiencing pleasure. So are you really "enthusiastic?" I understand men and women aren't always in the mood or sent to the moon during sex, but you "hate" sex in general. Like I said, I'm just concerned.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wazza said:


> But if you talk it can be so much better...for you as well as him.


I can't tell him I don't like sex...can I? He'd probably have a hernia.

I don't mind doing it...I may at the time but I don't resent him for it afterwards.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Very well put C2W. Great post, especially the last paragraph..(snip)..As I have said, and other men in this thread have said, getting a no once in a while isn't a huge deal. Getting told no repeatedly is.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/smthumbup.gif
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/iagree.gif

If all married couples have this understanding that Mrs C2W and Mr. KingsFan has (both the male and the female) then many marriage counsellors and divorce lawyers will have to find another line of work quick!


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You would be QUITE surprised.
> 
> I've had a lotta practice.
> 
> And also...I mean, I enjoy feeling close to him. Sex doesn't turn my stomach or anything, I just hate the constant suffocating pressure that I *know* he's gonna want to do again tonight.


That is because you are not compatible. How on earth do you think you can live like that for the rest of your life? 

I look forward to my partner getting home, can't wait for tonight. We did it last night and this morning, but man oh man I can't wait for tonight 
But you know what, if either of us were too tired or not in the mood when the time comes we will snuggle up, watch a movie and enjoy each other. We will then go to bed, kiss, cuddle and wish each other a good nights sleep.

If you feel suffocating pressure to do it or not do it then take that as the sign that you are not with the right person.

Look I doubt most of this is real, but it is an interesting discussion anyway. If it is real then get yourself some help, like NOW.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Holland, i know you're an older woman, so i would imagine your partner is an older man. That probably serves you well in your sex life with him. He wasn't brought up in, or adopted the porn culture that is modern men. And that's awesome :smthumbup:

HOWEVER

That doesn't change the fact that men have many more sexual expectations than women. I have yet to see a "i want to give my husband anal" thread started by a wife. Or a "how do i get my husband to swallow a half cup of my ejaculate" thread. 

Many (most?) men ARE bad in bed and it's typically because their first sexual experience was with a pornstar.



Holland said:


> No you don't know that and you do not speak for all women.
> 
> I have some different expectations to my partner but generally we have very similar expectations. But that is because we are compatible.
> 
> The way you talk about men and sex is a very narrow POV, it may be your experience but it is not mine. To say that most men are bad lovers is such an unacceptable thing to say. You are making some pretty gross, unfounded exaggerations.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> That is because you are not compatible. How on earth do you think you can live like that for the rest of your life?
> 
> I look forward to my partner getting home, can't wait for tonight. We did it last night and this morning, but man oh man I can't wait for tonight
> But you know what, if either of us were too tired or not in the mood when the time comes we will snuggle up, watch a movie and enjoy each other. We will then go to bed, kiss, cuddle and wish each other a good nights sleep.
> ...


You're probably old enough to be my grandmother judging by your patronizing tone.

You can doubt all you like.

Simply because you haven't experienced something, doesn't mean you need to question it's existence.

I'm making an effort to be a "grown up" so maybe meet me halfway and cut me some slack.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

LittleBird said:


> I understand there is an intimate side to sex but every time a man wants sex, *there isn't emotion behind it.* He's just good ol' fashioned horny, which is totally fine, but you can't get mad a woman for not being horny in the same way you are.


 I think many times this contributes to the problem for many women... (though I can't say this about my own husband, he's always been flowing in the emotional, tender & loving)

If a woman has been treated like she is "just a piece of meat" or a Glory hole, I do feel this could mess with her perception of what men want or how they view love making... men themselves can add to this problem too......each wife should dig deep & understand where this is coming from... ...and each husband should evaluate if he is contributing to his wife's feeling "used" just for pleasure -devoid of the emotional. 



Holland said:


> Sure we don't all want to be at it like rabbits all the time but there are plenty of compromises. Even simple things such as saying to your man "you know what, I really am not into it tonight, how about I lie next to you and hold you while you DIY?"
> Or put on some porn together and get in the mood. Or at the very least give your partner a raincheck that you honor.


 Absolutely... there have been times I was just DYING to be with him at night...full of antsy romantic lust.... he was a little too tired...but every time.... he'd happily tell me... "I want to be with you ~ just give me a few hours, wake me up"....This meant the world to me. 

Here is a good thread with some very useful information on this....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-ld-wife-created-sexually-happy-marriage.html




homebuilder said:


> Well I feel like it's always been her way and she is basically unwilling to change or do any long term compromise. I'll probably never know what it is like to be LD, so I don't know how that feels. My wife will probably never know how it fees to be HD and feel rejected and unwanted and unattractive it is a hearbreaker and a sould crusher to me.
> 
> I love my wife very much and I take my vows very seriously. The thing is when there is one thing that you can't have a compromise on and you can't have happiness and peace about I think at some point it may be enouh to push you over the top. I should not have to lie in my bed with my wife and feel alone.


 Posts like this often speak the sad reality... and how very very difficult it is.... I am one who feels I've tasted of both sides of this....I can tell you , being the one who QUESTIONS the desire of their spouse, which I DID to my husband (less knowingly -due to his passiveness)....and how I started to feel when his drive was lower than mine & he couldn't keep up... that really tore me up. 

I remember looking at my husband 4 yrs ago & saying to him with such feeling...... "How in the hell did you contain yourself?" when he wanted so much more. I told him straight out... I can't do that... I told him ....







I do believe had he rejected me or just went along - all about pleasing me - but feeling like I was a burden somehow....a lack of







....I do believe this would have destructed our marriage... I needed more than that. We worked through that very nicely. So in this way, I so understand the High drivers hurt .....especially if they are very giving & fulfilling in the emotional to their wives. 


If there IS resentment - this needs worked through. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html

MisMatched Libidos...but we love, want to please...in the emotional, from the heart...Did a thread on that .... Anything less .....it's just hurtful to the one needing us in this way. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...allowing-our-partner-turn-us-love-making.html


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

aribabe said:


> But I DO know that women don't have nearly as many sexual expectations as men


That's interesting, because I'd say the men in this society grow up believing that women are inherently much harder to please, with far more sexual expectations than we have. There is a ton of pressure coming up sexually as a young man, and a lot that centers around the perpetuated idea that women need a skilled, masterful lover to be pleased, every single time. 

I find it fascinating that a woman believes it's us with the greater expectations. 



aribabe said:


> And if men didn't have so many, it would be a lot easier to over look the fact that many men (possibly most) are just a terrible flop in bed.
> 
> But when you expect your wife to get excited about being twisted into contortionist positions that don't stimulate her "hot spots" in any way, or to swallow a half cup of foul tasting thick viscous fluid, or to have an erect penis pushed into her anus.... then you call attention to your own lack of sexual skills.
> 
> ...



I agree. I made a thread about this topic recently. I think far more "I have a headache" excuses are coming from women who are totally unsatisfied in bed, and aren't willing to just admit that to their husbands. Yes there are a number of reasons why sex falls, but not enough people are just admitting that their lover (and possibly themselves) suck in bed, or have little to no sexual chemistry, or just plain don't find the person attractive physically anymore, assuming they did in the first place.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Holland, i know you're an older woman, so i would imagine your partner is an older man. That probably serves you well in your sex life with him. He wasn't brought up in, or adopted the porn culture that is modern men. And that's awesome :smthumbup:
> 
> HOWEVER
> 
> ...


Wrong again. Yes my partner is an older man, a very sexy man in his 50's that enjoys watching porn. He has viewed porn most of his adult life.

And he gives me oral multiple times per week so yeah he does swallow my bodily fluids (with enthusiasm) as I do with his.

He has some fantasies that are just that, fantasy and we will never participate in because we both understand the mind v's reality v's destroyed emotional bond thing. He does not expect me to participate in his fantasy just because he is the man and I am the little woman. 
He has one fantasy that I am just about to make a reality.
His expectations are that we both participate actively, we both initiate, we both suggest positions, new ideas to try. he is one hell of a fantastic lover.
Mind you our first few encounters were average but because we are compatible and communicate we have grown to a point that is amazing.
Our sexual expectations are fairly even.

I have had plenty of other partners that were fantastic lovers. Even my ex was at the start, the quality was not the issue the quantity was so from that POV I was the one that had greater expectations.

I do not see men here or IRL expecting their partners to hang from the rafters, they do expect active participation and there is nothing wrong with that, in fact it is vital for a healthy sex life that both participate. isn't that what this thread is about?

You sell men too short and you make women the victim. This is undermining both genders.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> That's a little bit ridiculous, sorry. And ffs, I am so tired of the word "NEED" being thrown around like it's nothing.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with your right hand, sir.
> 
> ...


Which is fine. Just make sure you marry somebody who doesn't have a very high drive. There are men, and women actually, who crave sex five, six, seven, even more times, a week. You obviously aren't suited for a man like that, so avoid marrying a man like that.

Also try not to marry a man who feels your basic needs, whatever they be, are not BS worthy of being dismissed. Because you could easily find somebody who doesn't believe you need to be treated like a human being daily, or held, kissed, or shown basic affection.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I can't tell him I don't like sex...can I? He'd probably have a hernia.
> 
> I don't mind doing it...I may at the time but I don't resent him for it afterwards.


"I like being touched. Penetration is not as nice for me. What I really like is you when you are excited. I love intercourse for that more than how it feels." Etc.

And if it ends because of it...well, better now than ten years and three kids down the road.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I can't tell him I don't like sex...can I? He'd probably have a hernia.


He'd might have a hernia, but he might also have the perspective to make a choice about your relationship.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You're probably old enough to be my grandmother judging by your patronizing tone.
> 
> You can doubt all you like.
> 
> ...


Yes it is possible if I had my child at 13 and they had theirs at 13 then I could be your granny. How cool is that though, I would be the granny having a rocking sex life 

I am trying to cut you some slack due to your inexperience but you know what, maybe you should listen to some of the experience people here. We are saying you are on a one way track to marriage disaster. I don't know you and as soon as I log off you are not in my mind but I read what you say here and have to speak out because you are headed for trouble and you refuse to see acknowledge that.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You're probably old enough to be my grandmother judging by your patronizing tone.
> 
> You can doubt all you like.
> 
> ...


Making an effort to be a "grown up" isn't pretending to enjoy sex just to make your fiance happy. Making an effort to be a "grown up" would be trying to figure out how you CAN enjoy it... not for him, but for YOU. Making an effort to be a "grown up" would be talking to the man and making sure he truly understands how you feel about sex. The thing is... I think you are too scared to do it. Not because you think it will bruise his "fragile ego", but because you are afraid he will either suggest you see a counselor to try to deal with it...or that he will leave because he wants someone who actually LIKES having sex with him, not just endures it to make him happy.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Yes it is possible if I had my child at 13 and they had theirs at 13 then I could be your granny. How cool is that though, I would be the granny having a rocking sex life
> 
> I am trying to cut you some slack due to your inexperience but you know what, maybe you should listen to some of the experience people here. We are saying you are on a one way track to marriage disaster. I don't know you and as soon as I log off you are not in my mind but I read what you say here and have to speak out because you are headed for trouble and you refuse to see acknowledge that.


Point taken. :iagree:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Making an effort to be a "grown up" isn't pretending to enjoy sex just to make your fiance happy. Making an effort to be a "grown up" would be trying to figure out how you CAN enjoy it... not for him, but for YOU. Making an effort to be a "grown up" would be talking to the man and making sure he truly understands how you feel about sex. The thing is... I think you are too scared to do it. Not because you think it will bruise his "fragile ego", but because you are afraid he will either suggest you see a counselor to try to deal with it...or that he will leave because he wants someone who actually LIKES having sex with him, not just endures it to make him happy.


I will never like sex. But I couldn't even bring myself to do it if I didn't really love him.

I know I have issues, I know that. But he's not super mature (yet, he has great potential) and I think he'd go "What do you mean sex isn't mind blowing for you? What am I doing wrong?" 

Me: "Nothing honey I just don't enjoy the sensation of it, I love being close to you"

And then he'd say OK while all the while storming around the house like a 3 year old toddler. ALSO knowing him, he'd spent countless hours trying to "make" me like it. I love him. I'm happy he's happy. I know you don't believe me but I don't want to ruin that for him.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

jaquen said:


> That's interesting, *because I'd say the men in this society grow up believing that women are inherently much harder to please, with far more sexual expectations than we have.* There is a ton of pressure coming up sexually as a young man, and a lot that centers around the perpetuated idea that women need a skilled, masterful lover to be pleased, every single time.
> 
> I find it fascinating that a woman believes it's us with the greater expectations.
> *
> ...


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I will never like sex. But I couldn't even bring myself to do it if I didn't really love him.
> 
> I know I have issues, I know that. But he's not super mature (yet, he has great potential) and I think he'd go "What do you mean sex isn't mind blowing for you? What am I doing wrong?"
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, it will be ruined for him once he realizes what you are/have been doing. And he may not realize it right now, but in 10 years.... as others have said, he will likely come on a forum like this and say things like he was tricked, you pulled a bait & switch, etc. Honestly, even an immature man would have more "potential" if you were honest with him. Basing a relationship on a lie is never good for the relationship. The only ones who profit from such things are counselors and divorce lawyers.

Again, as others have said, counseling could help you with YOUR issues with this. You say you will never like sex. I am assuming this is because of the abuse you endured. Some people do end up liking sex after having been abused. It does take time, so I have been told. Unfortunately, as long as you keep the mindset of "I will never like sex", you never will...even if you get counseling. 

Regardless of how immature he may be, he deserves to know the truth, not basing the relationship on a lie.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Most women are having sex with bad lovers. And no one is saying anything.


Actually half of all men are below average lovers. 

And, half of all women are below average lovers.

Mathematically your assertion that "most women are having sex with bad lovers" is impossible.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually half of all men are below average lovers.
> 
> And, half of all women are below average lovers.
> 
> Mathematically your assertion that "most women are having sex with bad lovers" is impossible.


Love your work. 



Depends on how "bad" aligns with "average".


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Love your work.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on how "bad" aligns with "average".


Ha. Yes I made the assumption that the definition of bad is below average. I can make that assumption because when you're talking about something that subjective any definition works.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I didn't read any of the other comments so forgive me I repeat. 

OP your logic would be creditable if men did not suffer emotionally when the one person that they singled out to love, rejects them sexually. Indeed it would be creditable if men had sex with the one they love for the sole purpose of fun and games. 

You have only to read the heart-felt posts from chronically rejected men to realize that sex is more than simple pleasure. The expressions of depression, wounded self - esteem, and pain from so many men and women cannot be contrived. 

The feelings they express are virtually identical. Either they all attended the same "University of Sexual Perversions" or they are expressing the feelings that rejection evokes in any human being. 

OP have you read any books on male and female sexuality? Since you feel this way, do you have any evidence to share that men don't experience emotional pain when rejected by their wives? Read the books in my signature and come back and post what you think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I do find it odd that a couple women in this thread have claimed that TAM is full of men expecting daily, swing from the rafters, porn star sex.

Except, in all my time here, the overwhelming majority of men I have encountered are with women who are laying them a handful of times a month, at best. I've lost count of the amount of men here who admit to going MONTHS without sex. Most of those men aren't looking for rafters sex, they are looking for sex PERIOD. If they had a woman who was into them once or twice a month, they'd die of happiness.

So please, one of you ladies who keeps making this claim, point me to the huge cache of threads where men are expecting their wives to screw them daily.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Unfortunately, it will be ruined for him once he realizes what you are/have been doing. And he may not realize it right now, but in 10 years.... as others have said, he will likely come on a forum like this and say things like he was tricked, you pulled a bait & switch, etc. Honestly, even an immature man would have more "potential" if you were honest with him. Basing a relationship on a lie is never good for the relationship. The only ones who profit from such things are counselors and divorce lawyers.


Very true. Oh, wait, oh, *doh*, oh well, yes, counsellors and divorce lawyers, er, do profit out of other people's misery. The best way to avoid them is to make sure you are starting out your marriage with all the best of honesty, knowledge, information and intention. 

If you still want to go on in a marriage knowing that your sexual needs are not compatible, get a mutually satisfactory prenuptial agreement, where the amount of sex as mutually agreeable by both sides are clearly mentioned (1/6? 3/6? your choice). This will save you both from lots of trouble afterwards, and will certainly erase any accusations of bait-and-switch.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Very true. Oh, wait, oh, *doh*, oh well, yes, counsellors and divorce lawyers, er, do profit out of other people's misery. The best way to avoid them is to make sure you are starting out your marriage with all the best of honesty, knowledge, information and intention.
> 
> If you still want to go on in a marriage knowing that your sexual needs are not compatible, get a mutually satisfactory prenuptial agreement, where the amount of sex as mutually agreeable by both sides are clearly mentioned (1/6? 3/6? your choice). This will save you both from lots of trouble afterwards, and will certainly erase any accusations of bait-and-switch.


If I were to be totally honest with my fiancé, what would this entail? 

I know that sounds dumb but this is a serious question, some things seem like they don't even need to be said.

"I don't enjoy sex physically like you do...but I enjoy it emotionally?"

I'm hesitant to say bait and switch because I really have no intention of stopping after marriage. 

I thought slowing down just happened naturally....I'm not going to force it to happen if he doesn't want to.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> I'm still not getting it?
> The woman gets pity
> Then she sill has to go sleep with John BiteHerClit
> In what way is the pity benefical?


I'm not going to spell it out for you anymore.

And, by the way, I don't buy the little I know about your friends sex lives. Unless they're married to a sadist, the poor guys just don't know that their wives don't like it. If the wives haven't said, "I don't like it when you bite my clitoris", then they deserve exactly what they're getting. 



> I don't know if not being "awesome enough" to do romantic things for is even kind of in the ball park of sexuality. Women literally have to allow men into their bodies, and men have the audacity to have an ego over that? Ludicrous.


Being told, "What you've been doing in bed for the last eight years actually turns me off, and I just decided to keep it from you because I didn't think you could handle it" is a MAJOR blow. Firstly, no one likes to be told that they're bad at something they thought they were good at. Secondly, they're probably ticked off that their wives took so long to tell them about how bad they were. Women are not all innocent, even though you like to paint them that way.

It'd be like being told, "Honey, this meatloaf you've been making for the last eight years, that I've been eating without complaint, is actually really awful. Can you not make it anymore?" Why couldn't you have said so in the first place? Why would you subject yourself to disgusting food all these years instead of be honest with me?



> Men absolutely deserve to know if they're bad in bed. But they don't want to hear it. I say it right here and I'm just some anonymous house wife, and the men get their panties all in a bunch. I can only imagine the responses their wives get when she tries to say "a little slower please" or "missionary feels best" or "I don't like giving/getting oral". He's thinking Jane DoublePenetration liked it just fine, my wives a prude/boring/not lusty.


Your outlook on men is so narrow, shallow and, frankly, insulting. And I'm not even a man. Firstly, I don't know any man who would get upset over his wife asking for him to go a little slower. I do it with my husband all the time. He gets excited, pounds a bit too hard too fast, so I lay my hands on his hips and he knows to stop for a bit. Secondly, any woman who limits her husband to the missionary position IS a prude. Plain and simple. Thirdly, if you GET oral sex, you absolutely need to GIVE oral sex. That's what's fair. And if a woman doesn't want to get oral sex, she should freaking say so! The man might be disappointed, but so long as there are other things she's open to, I can't see how he would have a pity party over it.



> The wives are stuck between a rock and hard place.
> 
> She says she likes it slow and non acrobatic and non oral, she's called a prude. She gives in to his desires and "puts up with it" and she's called boring and non lusty, and dutiful (which is negative, of course).


What about what _he_ likes? Sure, women have the tastes they want, and men should give them that. But they also have tastes, and for the most part, women should do what they can to satisfy them. If a man wants to have sex hard and fast, he should be able to sometimes. If he wants to try some new positions, he should be able to sometimes. Things like anal, where it can be painful, are different because neither should be put through physical pain if they don't want it. 



> No win for the wife.


With you there's no win for the husband, either.



> And if you can show me a woman who wants her clitoris bitten.
> I'll show you a pig that sh*ts buterflies.


I thought for sure that no woman could ever enjoy anal after my experience with it. Then I came here and saw that a lot of women enjoyed anal. Ever since then, I've learned that pretending to understand all women was a stupid thing do, and only made me look immature and conceited.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Holland, i know you're an older woman, so i would imagine your partner is an older man. That probably serves you well in your sex life with him. He wasn't brought up in, or adopted the porn culture that is modern men. And that's awesome :smthumbup:
> 
> HOWEVER
> 
> That doesn't change the fact that men have many more sexual expectations than women. I have yet to see a "i want to give my husband anal" thread started by a wife. Or a "how do i get my husband to swallow a half cup of my ejaculate" thread.


Your view of women and sex is so utterly unfounded, it's sad. Women have plenty of sexual expectations. You yourself voiced them; women want it slow, women don't want to get or give oral, women only like missionary, blah blah blah. 

I'm a woman, and I love fast, hard, nasty, lustful sex. I love getting oral, and I love giving it. I love more positions than just missionary. In fact, I don't even orgasm in missionary. I orgasm on top of my husband, when I take control and f*uck the living sh!t out of him. I usually have at least three orgasms in one session. More if he gave me oral. So, excuse me if I completely reject your insulting generalizations. 

I'm gonna go give my husband a BJ now. You reminded me how glad I am that I'm not like so many women in this world who only want to control men and their sexual passions.



> Many (most?) men ARE bad in bed and it's typically because their first sexual experience was with a pornstar.


ROFLOL! Not every man watches porn, dear. My husband doesn't, and his first experience was not with porn. It was with a girl who gave him a handjob in her sleep. He was eighteen. And he'd never masturbated before either.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Cletus, don't join the buched panties brigade hun
> If you think you're good in bed, that's good enough.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I wore panties, they'd be smooth as silk. Turns out it's a lot easier to speak only for yourself than for a stereotype.

But apparently it's not enough to think I'm good in bed, as you've pointed out several times now. 'Cause, as a man, I'm actually probably terrible and my poor longsuffering wife is the pitiable victim of my ineptitude. 

Poor girl.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I do find it odd that a couple women in this thread have claimed that TAM is full of men expecting daily, swing from the rafters, porn star sex.
> 
> Except, in all my time here, the overwhelming majority of men I have encountered are with women who are laying them a handful of times a month, at best. I've lost count of the amount of men here who admit to going MONTHS without sex. Most of those men aren't looking for rafters sex, they are looking for sex PERIOD. If they had a woman who was into them once or twice a month, they'd die of happiness.
> 
> So please, one of you ladies who keeps making this claim, point me to the huge cache of threads where men are expecting their wives to screw them daily.



:allhail:


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> Shhh. Don't tell anybody--I'm a lawyer. I'll draft that prenup! But where's my retainer?


psst.. remain in hiding.. somebody might see us in our true colors... I'll meet you behind that coral reef..


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If I were to be totally honest with my fiancé, what would this entail?
> 
> I know that sounds dumb but this is a serious question, some things seem like they don't even need to be said.
> 
> ...



If you think you can continue to pretend to enjoy penetrative sex several times a week for the next three or four or five decades, even though you hate it you are delusional. 

I'm guessing you must be faking orgasms? That needs to stop. That helps no-one in the long run.

Do you have any respect for this man you claim to love? Because you have described him as immature, too stupid to match his own socks, less attractive than you, seemingly so obtuse he can't tell when the person he supposedly loves is crying in the bathroom before sex and vomiting afterwards. Oh, and likely to pout and sulk if you tell him anything real.

I said this in your other thread, he doesn't love you because he doesn't know you. He doesn't know what you think and feel about sex, he doesn't know what you really think about him. Your posts are very contemptuous of him actually, I'm not seeing any love from you to him either. 

I think you're lying and exaggerating to him in the same way you're lying and exaggerating to us. You need to dig yourself out from under the mountain of deceit and start dealing with the truth. 

How do you tell him? You just tell him. Tell him what you like, what you don't like and what you're willing to work on. Then see if he still wants to sign up for a lifetime of it.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

One issue that i see in this thread is a misunderstanding of so called LD. Many so called LD people comment that when they have sex without the desire to start, in the end, they get into it and enjoy. 

It is so common that I think that very few people are really LD but they are low spontaneous desire. Most of these people are woman. 

They need a jump start in the form of a loving horny husband to feel aroused and then desire sex. They start off slow but soon match their partner in passion. 

Why can we not accept LSD as a normal state? If we did, the LSD person would not resent being jumped and the HSD person would not be upset about having to jump their wives bones much of the time.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I think you're lying and exaggerating to him in the same way you're lying and exaggerating to us. You need to dig yourself out from under the mountain of deceit and start dealing with the truth.
> 
> How do you tell him? You just tell him. Tell him what you like, what you don't like and what you're willing to work on. Then see if he still wants to sign up for a lifetime of it.


I applaud you for your persistence, but after the 50th presentation, it's not at all clear that the message is getting through.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Your view of women and sex is so utterly unfounded, it's sad. Women have plenty of sexual expectations. You yourself voiced them; women want it slow, women don't want to get or give oral, women only like missionary, blah blah blah.
> 
> I'm a woman, and I love fast, hard, nasty, lustful sex. I love getting oral, and I love giving it. I love more positions than just missionary. In fact, I don't even orgasm in missionary. I orgasm on top of my husband, when I take control and f*uck the living sh!t out of him. I usually have at least three orgasms in one session. More if he gave me oral. So, excuse me if I completely reject your insulting generalizations.
> 
> ...


Just put down my laptop and gave my husband a BJ while he was playing COD online. I told him, "I'm going to suck you now. And you can't stop playing the game either. If you stop playing, I stop sucking. Oh, and if you lose the game, no more BJ's for you." (I was kidding.) 

He said it was so hot and turned him on so much. It took less than eight minutes. 

And you think men have high sexual expectations because...why?


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If I wore panties, they'd be smooth as silk. Turns out it's a lot easier to speak only for yourself than for a stereotype.
> 
> But apparently it's not enough to think I'm good in bed, as you've pointed out several times now. 'Cause, as a man, I'm actually probably terrible and my poor longsuffering wife is the pitiable victim of my ineptitude.
> 
> Poor girl.


Well the odds are high you are a dud lay because most men are apparently. But not aribabes DH, he is one of the few good ones in bed.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> If you think you can continue to pretend to enjoy penetrative sex several times a week for the next three or four or five decades, even though you hate it you are delusional.
> 
> I'm guessing you must be faking orgasms? That needs to stop. That helps no-one in the long run.
> 
> ...


Nobody is contemptuous of him...........quite the opposite.

And to clarify, I don't always cry and the throw up thing was WAY long ago, when I was like "rape free" for like two months.

If it sounds unrealistic, go through and get back to me on that one. 

I agree that he deserves the truth.

He is not stupid or obtuse. And what, exactly, about sex would make him stop loving me?

The only thing I've "lied" in unspoken word about is sex. He knows me as a HUMAN BEING outside of sexual anything and he loves that. 

I'll tell him the truth because it's the right thing to do but no, I fully disagree that he can't "love me" because I've been "pretending" to enjoy sex.

I do enjoy sex but not for the SEX. For the closeness. I do feel intimacy through it, I just feel intimacy in other ways the same way. 

I'll tell him and once I do, hopefully you'll have nothing left to say to me on the subject.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Just put down my laptop and gave my husband a BJ while he was playing COD online. I told him, "I'm going to suck you now. And you can't stop playing the game either. If you stop playing, I stop sucking. Oh, and if you lose the game, no more BJ's for you." (I was kidding.)
> 
> He said it was so hot and turned him on so much. It took less than eight minutes.
> 
> And you think men have high sexual expectations because...why?


I'm stealing this idea  just need to think about the logistics of where the laptop will go.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I applaud you for your persistence, but after the 50th presentation, it's not at all clear that the message is getting through.


I told him about the abuse.

Now I'm going to tell him about this.

I'm not dense, nor stupid, nor cruel, nor a bad human being.

I'm 20, damaged, proud and stubborn.

But I'm also going to do the right thing.

And for the record, I described him as very attractive...I resent having words put in my mouth. I can step in it enough without any help, thanks.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> While I do enjoy blowjobs, other positions, giving my fiancee oral, etc. I've turned all those down to be with my fiancee in a missionary position, or with her on top, many times (especially recently). Why? Because I crave to be able to hold her close, to look her in the eye, to kiss her lips and to feel her whole body pressed against mine. I feel love from that. I feel connected to her from that. I feel closer to her then than in any other moment. THAT'S why I want sex with her. I don't want to just blow a load, I want to be connected to her.


:smthumbup:

If your woman think the same way, then you will never need marriage counsellors and lawyers, and if the majority of married couples think likewise, then it's tough time for counsellors and lawyers, but good time for everyone else... *sob* *there goes my new smartphone*


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Nobody is contemptuous of him...........quite the opposite.
> 
> And to clarify, I don't always cry and the throw up thing was WAY long ago, when I was like "rape free" for like two months.
> 
> ...


Intimacy and closeness play a huge part in why I enjoy sex so much. You don't have to get some wild physical satisfaction out of it to learn to enjoy it. In fact, the reason I lost my virginity to my husband was because I wanted that intimacy so very much. Yes, the physical was out of the world and wild and I felt like I was on some kind of drug, but the reason I craved it after that was because I knew what the closeness was like. The passion. 

Perhaps focusing more on the closeness and passion while you're in bed with him might help? It sounds like you pretty much let him have his way most of the time. Why not try asking him to take things slowly and build the intimacy through cuddling, then touching each other and kissing, making out, etc. and lead up to making love?


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

If you can't see that presenting yourself as a sexual person who enjoys penetrative sex and has no hang-ups when you are nothing of the sort is not totally deceptive, then I can't explain it to you.

If you can't see that allowing him to believe that you enjoy something that you don't, something that he would very much care about if he knew, is deceptive, then again, I can't explain it to you.

If you think that hiding the fact that you were sexually abused for years because 'it didn't affect you sexually' (quoted from memory from your deleted thread) is not deceptive, then again...

And if you can't see the contempt in your descriptions of your fiancé, then I am at a loss. I would never ever have thought of my husband in the terms you have casually thrown around here. 'Immature', 'spoiled', 'lazy', 'demanding' - some of these are from your latest thread. Ad you find it sweet that he enjoys sex. That is unbelievably condescending. 

I have no idea why anyone would want to marry anyone who they thought so poorly of. Obviously it's all tied up in your lack of security in childhood, and lack of understanding about what love actually is. Not a good base for a marriage.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I'm not going to spell it out for you anymore.
> 
> *I don't think you ever did....*
> 
> ...


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If I were to be totally honest with my fiancé, what would this entail?
> 
> I know that sounds dumb but this is a serious question, some things seem like they don't even need to be said.
> 
> ...



I think you should tell your fiance EVERYTHING you've written here about sex.

_*Everything.
*_

Like I recommended earlier, print out your messages here and let him read them.

And don't just give him the "nice" ones, the ones where you are backtracking, which you've done a lot of when confronted.

Give him the ones too where you admit to crying in the bathroom before putting on your sex goddess facade.

Hand him the posts where you admit that you do not like sex *at all*.

Show him the posts where you feel that if a man wants sex for carnal, non-emotional reasons, it's "base" and you believe he needs to use his right hand to get off.

Show him every single post where you show a clear misunderstanding, and blatant disrespect, of men, and male (and frankly female) sexuality.

Show him the ones where you discuss your abuse, the effects your parents dysfunctional relationship has on your view of marriage, and sex.

Show him all the posts you've made where you're hoping with kids that things will slow down, so he doesn't come knocking at your panties for sex as often.

Show him the posts where you state that duty sex is perfectly OK, and that he should be grateful you're offering.

Show him the posts where you admit to not being wanting it, but doing it just to let him get his rocks off.

Show him every post where you say a HD's persons need for frequent sex is not really a need at all, and that it upsets you that anybody would call it a need.

And please, do not forget to show him the many posts where you've made clear you believe that sex should be able to dry up at some point, and he not mind because you "love" him, and mend his socks, and do a "million" other things for him, things that should buy you credit in the occasion that you decide to damn up your sexuality.

Until you are ready to share every single one of these personal, intimate details to your fiancee, you are nowhere near ready to be married. Frankly you shouldn't even be engaged.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If I wore panties, they'd be smooth as silk. Turns out it's a lot easier to speak only for yourself than for a stereotype.
> *
> I like silk panties *
> 
> ...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> If you can't see that presenting yourself as a sexual person who enjoys penetrative sex and has no hang-ups when you are nothing of the sort is not totally deceptive, then I can't explain it to you.
> 
> If you can't see that allowing him to believe that you enjoy something that you don't, something that he would very much care about if he knew, is deceptive, then again, I can't explain it to you.
> 
> ...


You know a lot of this. I don't deny that.

But you don't have any clue how I feel about him. And you have zero right to presume I don't love him or that he doesn't love me.

FYI, he KNOWS ABOUT THE ABUSE. And what a MIRACLE, he didn't care! 

He's glad I told him but his exact words: "That's personal and I'd want you to tell me but would respect if you never felt like you could."

And don't tell me I skimped on the details because I didn't. He was green by the time I was done.

Next step is the sex talk.

If I really was this selfish, immature little brat, I'd make zero effort to even TRY and listen to things which are clearly difficult for me to hear. I'd just stay in my own little world and pull his puppet strings.

Just so you know.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I think you should tell your fiance EVERYTHING you've written here about sex.
> 
> _*Everything.
> *_
> ...


I don't actually think all of those things at the moment.

I've actually changed my mind about a lot.

I am not incapable. I can listen. I can absorb.

I will tell him I don't get physical pleasure from sex and I will tell him it takes a toll on me to pretend I do for his sake.

I want him to enjoy it, whether it's carnal or not. 

If I really didn't care about him I'd just shut my legs and be done with it...but that would make HIM unhappy and that would make me MISERABLE. I don't say no to him, I don't say no to anyone because I just *hate* disappointing people.

I'm not trying to manipulate him to hurt him, I'm just trying to give him what he wants. 

But I'll tell him. He deserves that.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Intimacy and closeness play a huge part in why I enjoy sex so much. You don't have to get some wild physical satisfaction out of it to learn to enjoy it. In fact, the reason I lost my virginity to my husband was because I wanted that intimacy so very much. Yes, the physical was out of the world and wild and I felt like I was on some kind of drug, but the reason I craved it after that was because I knew what the closeness was like. The passion.
> 
> Perhaps focusing more on the closeness and passion while you're in bed with him might help? It sounds like you pretty much let him have his way most of the time. Why not try asking him to take things slowly and build the intimacy through cuddling, then touching each other and kissing, making out, etc. and lead up to making love?


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

For the record, I INIATE SEX for that VERY reason. 

My only issue is when I feel pressure. Knowing that like clock work when I get into bed I have to be ready to go.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Your view of women and sex is so utterly unfounded, it's sad. Women have plenty of sexual expectations. You yourself voiced them; women want it slow, women don't want to get or give oral, women only like missionary, blah blah blah.
> 
> *Well obviously i disagree that it's unfounded. I'm sure that was a given lol.
> I said women don't have nearly as many sexual expectation as men, and we don't. Well maybe you do, there's always a snowflake
> ...


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I can kinda see what you're saying here. It's not a perfect parallel, but in tactical shooting and CCW courses, women are often better students than the men because the men have to unlearn some of the goofy ideas they've picked up from action movies first.
> 
> The solution is simply a good teacher


I think it is very important to note however that almost as many females of the internet generation are experiencing porn as their initiators into the world of sex.

This whole idea that boys are coming into sex via porn, while girls are the unsuspecting victims, is archaic.

I think porn is helping to create unrealistic expectations early one for males _and _females.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

airbabe said:
 

> Awww, the poor little guy.
> Perception is really something.
> 
> I've never had to tell my husband not to bite my clitoris, and he's never told me not to bite his penis.
> ...


I was a virgin when I met my husband. He talked with me about oral, and wanted me to give it to him. I had never given oral before, and had no idea how to. In my thoughts, I wondered what kind of sensation teeth would give. If he hadn't told me, "Oh, don't use your teeth", I wouldn't have known not to. He had a girlfriend who used her teeth on his penis, and she was quite experienced as far as partner number was concerned. So, sometimes, it's not as simple as "it should just be understood".



> This goes back to men and their lack of sexual skills.
> An arousing lover would know not to bite a woman's clitoris, many men, unfortunately, do not.
> And women suffer


And, apparently, some women don't know not to bite a man's penis and some men suffer. Whose fault is that? The women for mistakingly thinking it would be enjoyable? Or the men for not being clear and specific?

And I'm a fantastic lover, thank you.



> It shouldn't be a major blow. Why would it be? A woman has been allowing a man into her body for eight years, enduring possible pain and probable dissatisfaction. And when she finally decides to tell him, he's the victim? I'm sorry, that just doesn't make even a little sense.


So you think most women lower themselves enough to allow a mans penis into her vagina? Elitist much? 

Who says that women are any good at sex? Maybe the sex isn't very good because the man doesn't have anything to work with? 



> I think our main disconnect, is that you view adult men as children that should be coddled and refferred to as "poor guy". And i don't.


No, you think they're selfish, egotistical, arrogant babies who whine and complain and throw tantrums anytime a woman tells them they need to change/improve something in bed.

And, actually, I don't see adult men as children. I see them as human freaking beings who have feelings, and balls enough to take the truth when told to them. I like to think that most men would be man enough to take it when told that biting the clitoris hurts. Whereas you assume they should "already know that", which is ridiculous. No one person likes the exact same things in bed. I had to tell my husband what worked for me and what didn't when we first started having sex, and since I had never had any sex of any kind until him, he had to do the same with me. It's called _communication_, and every aspect of the marriage requires it.



> I don't hold women accountable for men's egos.
> and I certainly don't blame them for working with those egos in the best way they can.


So keeping the truth from them because the men "just can't handle the truth" is dealing with it the best way they can? I don't buy it. SUCH a cop out. 

Women love to blame men for all of their problems, when they often create them for themselves. The issue isn't that men don't know how to make love to their wives, it's that their wives refuse to stand up strong and say, "I don't like this". But why do that when they can blame the men for it?



> I also believe that men have a personal responsibility to be sexual satisfying.


Women also have a personal responsibility to tell their men what satisfies them and what doesn't. How is a man supposed to magically know what each individual woman likes if she doesn't tell him? I hate all of this, stars-have-to-magically-align crap. 



> If my husband knew i'd have a pity party, become bitter, over critical, sad, mopey, hurt, angry if he told me he didn't like my meatloaf. Then it's my fault that he hasn't told me. A man can't create an environment that is not conducive to sexual honesty, and then brand himself the victim when their is no sexual honesty. That is absolutely ridiculous. Please allow men to take an iota of personal accountability.


I get that. And I agree to a point. But the way we women say things isn't always right. I know I have a tendency to come across as domineering and judgmental, and that can make a man automatically feel defensive. Now, when a wife is honest, then yes, the man should absolutely listen to what she says and monitor his response. No argument there. But the woman also has a responsibility to assist the environment of sexual honesty by assuring him that she won't be hostile, judgmental, sassy, arrogant, etc. 



> A woman that limits her husband to missionary is certainly not a prude, any more than a woman who limits her husband to only vaginal sex is a prude. Women do say so when they don't want to give oral. And what happens? They're husbands wind up here complaining about never getting oral or only getting on their birthdays lol.


It's up to the couple to decide what is appropriate and what's not, but I am of the belief that sex is mutual. Neither spouse has the right to dictate what will or won't happen in bed. If the wife isn't comfortable with giving/getting oral sex, then they seriously need to discuss the situation. But come on, _one_ position? I understand if it's for medical purposes or pain or something, but it's not that hard to roll over. So yeah, I call that prudish.



> Men are free to have sex however they want, fast, upside down, sideways. And wives are always able to accommodate. That's not the issue. The problem is that the wives are expected to act like they just looove it sooooo much, and it gets them so lustful. When it doesn't. That's the whole point of this thread lol. The wives accommodate their husbands out of love, and the husbands are still mad because it's not passionate enough, though they're wives have already voiced that they don't like.


I don't understand this point of view at all. _At all_. Like I said earlier, if my husband bought me a bouquet of roses, or some diamond necklace, just to make me happy and show he loves me, and walked through the door and just set them on the table half-heartedly, or handed them to me with a, "Here", that would not fulfill me. 

Sex isn't about the physical release, it's about knowing the person you're with wants you. And _that_ is the issue. 



> I force you to eat minced meat pie, then get mad at you because you're not begging for another one.
> 
> That's crazy


Then why be with the person? If you don't really want them, why be with them?



> You know what's a really stupid thing to do?
> Assume that women want their clitorises bitten


Men don't have a choice BUT to make assumptions if their women won't COMMUNICATE.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> For the record, I INIATE SEX for that VERY reason.
> 
> My only issue is when I feel pressure. Knowing that like clock work when I get into bed I have to be ready to go.


This sort of thing needs to be talked about, because a few years down the road it could become very draining for you.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't actually think all of those things at the moment.
> 
> I've actually changed my mind about a lot.
> 
> ...



I absolutely believe you love this man, and want the best for him, and your potential life together.

That's why I suggest, for the good of you both, you be brutally frank about all these issues, and encourage him to do the same.

And truly listen to him, and make sure, as much as you can, he really hears you.

It can make the world of difference in whether you two wed, and if you do, what to expect. A lot of marriages end because we live in a culture of silence, and shame, around so many matters, and people just hope for the best, and end up discovering that they are deeply incompatible on key issues, and always were.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't need to post on this thread often, Created2Write is posting pretty much everything for me lol


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I think it is very important to note however that almost as many females of the internet generation are experiencing porn as their initiators into the world of sex.
> 
> *That's an issue as well jaquen, and it hurt's women in a different way.
> Porn was one of my first introductions to sex. My brother's dvd's.
> ...


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I think you should tell your fiance EVERYTHING you've written here about sex.
> 
> _*Everything.
> *_
> ...


I agree. I absolutely agree.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> > aribabe said: 'Many (most?) men ARE bad in bed and it's typically because their first sexual experience was with a pornstar'
> 
> 
> ROFLOL! Not every man watches porn, dear. My husband doesn't, and his first experience was not with porn. It was with a girl who gave him a handjob in her sleep. He was eighteen. And he'd never masturbated before either.


Please allow me to joke a little 

Me after reading that quote above: "By the sheeps of David and the seeds of Abraham, now where was that pornstar of which I was supposed to have my first experience with?"

My friend Ahmed after hearing me said that: (beat me overhead with his kippah) "Fool! she was talking about American guys not us Asians!"

My reply: "So, all American males have their first sex experience with a pornstar? Ahmed, I so regret not immigrating to America when I was young.."


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Men have the frailest of egos, and are sooo defensive in regards to their sexual prowess.


This is true for a lot of men. My recommednation is for more women to "woman up" and still make the comments regardless.

Nobody is helped by a silent, suffering woman. 

And we men who do have the frailest of egos never get the chance to toughen them up if we are ever placated.



aribabe said:


> I commented that it was possible that he was not arousing her.
> The uproar my comment caused was certainly disproportionant to what I would expect from a man who's wife was clearly not turned on by him.
> But my suggestion was shot down with no consideration


And this is why I am glad you're here, despite our disagreements sometimes. Because I DO believe there is need here for more posters who offer the "well maybe you're just not satisfying him/her" perspective.




aribabe said:


> Most wives suggestions are also shut down with no consideration.
> That's not the wife's fault.


But it becomes her fault if allows the shut down to silence her. 

If a woman doesn't want to be a victim of a big, bad man, then she needs to evolve out of that role and speak her mind regardless (of course acknowledging this not to be the case in an abusive situation).



aribabe said:


> To me, biting my clitoris would be the eqivalent of my husband abusing me.
> And if he abused me, I wouldn't say "babe, could you stop abusing me, thanks"
> I'd just call the police
> 
> ...


We all have our threshold of pain, or what we consider acceptable, but let me tell you this; if men took this reaction to the many bad blow jobs a lot of us have faced, with teeth and scraping galore, there would be a lot of women in jail.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Please allow me to joke a little
> 
> Me after reading that quote above: "By the sheeps of David and the seeds of Abraham, now where was that pornstar of which I was supposed to have my first experience with?"
> 
> ...


Were you born here in the States, you'd know that as citizens, we enjoy the delights of our porn stars just like our crack - first one's free.

THAT'S why a green card is inferior.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> You know a lot of this. I don't deny that.
> 
> But you don't have any clue how I feel about him. And you have zero right to presume I don't love him or that he doesn't love me.
> 
> ...


The thing is, you're only twenty. You're very naive as to the ways marriages work, and unfortunately, you are in a very bad place and, I hate to say it, but I do not think your fiance and you are a good match for each other, no matter how much you love him. Love is not going to change either one of you. And if you did have kids, it wouldn't change his sexual desires. He would likely ask for it just as often as he does now. Being a mother doesn't negate that you were a wife, first and foremost. 

You know very little about how relationships work, and I understand. I was twenty and thought I was ready for marriage once too. But I wasn't. Marriage needs more than love, and just laying back and enjoying sex for only the emotional attachment, is not going to last for long. For you or him. You've said yourself that you won't ever enjoy sex. And it's clear that you don't understand why that would ever be a negative thing, so long as the two of you love each other. But the thing is, you can only fake it for so long before that even becomes impossible. And your fiance will, eventually, see through the facade.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

abitlost said:


> I don't need to post on this thread often, Created2Write is posting pretty much everything for me lol


I guess I should give others a chance at their soap box too.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Do you have any respect for this man you claim to love? Because you have described him as immature, too stupid to match his own socks, less attractive than you, seemingly so obtuse he can't tell when the person he supposedly loves is crying in the bathroom before sex and vomiting afterwards. Oh, and likely to pout and sulk if you tell him anything real..(snip)... Your posts are very contemptuous of him actually, I'm not seeing any love from you to him either.
> 
> I think you're lying and exaggerating to him in the same way you're lying and exaggerating to us. *You need to dig yourself out from under the mountain of deceit and start dealing with the truth.*


:iagree:

Mrs. Lyris, very perceptive, you have talents to be a detective and/or public prosecutor. Or a marriage counsellor. *thumbs up*


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> The thing is, you're only twenty. You're very naive as to the ways marriages work, and unfortunately, you are in a very bad place and, I hate to say it, but I do not think your fiance and you are a good match for each other, no matter how much you love him. Love is not going to change either one of you. And if you did have kids, it wouldn't change his sexual desires. He would likely ask for it just as often as he does now. Being a mother doesn't negate that you were a wife, first and foremost.
> 
> You know very little about how relationships work, and I understand. I was twenty and thought I was ready for marriage once too. But I wasn't. Marriage needs more than love, and just laying back and enjoying sex for only the emotional attachment, is not going to last for long. For you or him. You've said yourself that you won't ever enjoy sex. And it's clear that you don't understand why that would ever be a negative thing, so long as the two of you love each other. But the thing is, you can only fake it for so long before that even becomes impossible. And your fiance will, eventually, see through the facade.


Well maybe I can learn to like it.

I didn't use to like brown sugar, I like it now.

I'm actually being serious.

He understands me like no one else could begin to, I can finish his sentences. I remember his homework when he doesn't. He's not perfect and neither am I but he's my little pooh bear 

I refuse to break up over the fact that I don't "like" sex without trying to like it first.

Maybe he's just not doing it right...not like I have any reference. I want to figure this out, with him. Not away from him.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I guess I should give others a chance at their soap box too.


Your articulation is a lot better than mine, so I think you should keep posting and I'll keep liking :smthumbup:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Mrs. Lyris, very perceptive, you have talents to be a detective and/or public prosecutor. Or a marriage counsellor. *thumbs up*


Ironically that's what I want to be.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Well maybe I can learn to like it.
> 
> I didn't use to like brown sugar, I like it now.
> 
> ...


I applaud you for this. I think it may be entirely possible for you to learn to like. Many women do. Some here have even attested to changes. But it will require openness on your part, as well as continually being assertive and trying new things with him to see what you like and what you don't, and then telling him what you don't like. 

However, please don't get married until you find out either way.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Well maybe I can learn to like it.
> 
> I didn't use to like brown sugar, I like it now.
> 
> ...


Good on you  And I hope you guys do figure it out.

Just a suggestion, do not say that you don't like the physical side of sex instead work out what you do like then tell him, show him and encourage him.
You guys are so young but you seem to feel this pressure that sex should be mindblowing. Really great sex, that is based on love, intimacy and closeness will be built over time.
Practice is good, practice is fun.

Most importantly, communicate with him and be open with him.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I applaud you for this. I think it may be entirely possible for you to learn to like. Many women do. Some here have even attested to changes. But it will require openness on your part, as well as continually being assertive and trying new things with him to see what you like and what you don't, and then telling him what you don't like.
> 
> However, please don't get married until you find out either way.


I can't fathom losing him over sex of all things. There must be a way around this. 

I'm also going to cut myself some slack. It's been two years since the abuse stopped, maybe I can just STOP with the "I'm fine" all the time.

I'm not fine. And that's okay.

But I won't get married until I am.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Holland said:


> Good on you  And I hope you guys do figure it out.
> 
> Just a suggestion, do not say that you don't like the physical side of sex instead work out what you do like then tell him, show him and encourage him.
> You guys are so young but you seem to feel this pressure that sex should be mindblowing. Really great sex, that is based on love, intimacy and closeness will be built over time.
> ...


^This. 

You mentioned, LittleBird, that you don't like the pressure. Maybe talk to him about shaking things up and not having sex everyday? Maybe try going a week without it, read up on some things you think you might like, and then ask him to try them with you after the week is up? Maybe try laying naked, but not having sex, and seeing how long you can resist each other? You've said you're attracted to him a lot, so work on that. Try kissing and teasing. Take it slow. 

Learn each other.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I can't fathom losing him over sex of all things. There must be a way around this.
> 
> I'm also going to cut myself some slack. It's been two years since the abuse stopped, maybe I can just STOP with the "I'm fine" all the time.
> 
> ...


This post gives me a lot of hope for you.  I mean that. It's a sign of maturity to realize we have some issues, and admitting it. Most of us have issues that we need to deal with, so you're not alone.  And many people spend their whole lives trying to convince themselves and everyone else that there's nothing wrong with them. 

You're already ahead of them. 

I would maybe recommend some personal counseling for you, to help with the abuse, the sex, and the lack of assertiveness. Even if you never get to the place where you want sex as much as your fiance, if you can get to the place where sex is both physically enjoyable _and_ emotionally enjoyable, you'll have so much more to work with, and the sexual dynamic will be much healthier. That could save your relationship.

And the assertiveness is a big deal. Your fiance needs some growing up.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> ^This.
> 
> You mentioned, LittleBird, that you don't like the pressure. Maybe talk to him about shaking things up and not having sex everyday? Maybe try going a week without it, read up on some things you think you might like, and then ask him to try them with you after the week is up? Maybe try laying naked, but not having sex, and seeing how long you can resist each other? You've said you're attracted to him a lot, so work on that. Try kissing and teasing. Take it slow.
> 
> Learn each other.


I like this idea.

I think I started the resentment because everything leads to sex.

Every dinner. Every movie.

Every decent conversation, every cuddle, every touch.

It is partly my fault for being all over him with the touching but I am attracted to him and I do love him. 

It's just annoying that I can't enjoy our contact anymore without thinking "Oh ****, did I shave down there this morning?"


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Ironically that's what I want to be.


Why not, I am sure in your country there are some unhappy marriages.. so, good prospects for marriage counsellors..


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I like this idea.
> 
> I think I started the resentment because everything leads to sex.
> 
> ...


You definitely need to make it clear in your talk that you feel pressured to have sex often, and you think it may add to why you don't enjoy it physically. No one does if they feel pressured. Also tell him that you are willing to learn to enjoy sex. That's key.

Also, set boundaries. Resentment can ruin so many things, so you need to let him know that he needs to step up how much he helps around the house. Let him know that you feel that you do nearly all of the cleaning, and it would help take a lot of stress off of you if he would help more. And maintain those boundaries. Counseling may help this. Being a student is difficult, and it could be that you have so much on your plate that you don't know how to enjoy sex because you don't really have any time to relax. 

Tell him what would help you relax. Maybe try asking him to give you a sensual massage? Scented candles? Classical music playing softly in the background? Clean sheets? A made bed? Rose petals? One of his wonderful poems laying on the pillows for you to read?

Those things get me hot and wild and ready.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I can't fathom losing him over sex of all things. There must be a way around this.
> 
> I'm also going to cut myself some slack. It's been two years since the abuse stopped, maybe I can just STOP with the "I'm fine" all the time.
> 
> ...



I'm so glad to read this, two years after abuse is not very long.
As long as your honest with yourself and your partner you will find a way for your relationship to work for the both of you.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

jaquen said:


> > This is true for a lot of men. My recommednation is for more women to "woman up" and still make the comments regardless.
> 
> 
> *She can comment until she is blue in the face, it won't suddenly make her bad lover into a good one.
> ...


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Nobody is contemptuous of him...........quite the opposite.
> 
> And to clarify, I don't always cry and the throw up thing was WAY long ago, when I was like "rape free" for like two months.
> 
> ...


Have you ever done any research on asexuality? Because you seem to fit the mold perfectly.

Many asexuals, whether by birth, or made that way via trauma, enjoy intimacy, but either hate sex, or have absolutely no desire to participate in sex with other people (some asexuals masturbate).


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You know a lot of this. I don't deny that.
> 
> But you don't have any clue how I feel about him. And you have zero right to presume I don't love him or that he doesn't love me.
> 
> ...


In case you're not being wilfully obtuse here and have honestly missed the point, I did not ever suggest he would leave you when he found out you were abused. What I and others very strongly suggested was that he needed to know the present and possible future effects that the abuse will likely have on his sexual life.

If he can't see the possible issues, then I would say that's because he doesn't really understand, because you've been lying to him about your sexual desires.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Have you ever done any research on asexuality? Because you seem to fit the mold perfectly.
> 
> Many asexuals, whether by birth, or made that way via trauma, enjoy intimacy, but either hate sex, or have absolutely no desire to participate in sex with other people (some asexuals masturbate).



Cup your fingers into a small circular hoop. Stick your pinky through it. 

That's what I feel.

Not unpleasant.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> In case you're not being wilfully obtuse here and have honestly missed the point, I did not ever suggest he would leave you when he found out you were abused. What I and others very strongly suggested was that he needed to know the present and possible future effects that the abuse will likely have on his sexual life.
> 
> If he can't see the possible issues, then I would say that's because he doesn't really understand, because you've been lying to him about your sexual desires.


I've never said anything but yes. He's never asked anything otherwise. 

I did what I thought I was supposed to. Lying there is bad, so I moved.

I wasn't plotting an evil web...I just acted like I thought was normal. I do want to be normal, at times.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Do you like your clit bitten?


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Cup your fingers into a small circular hoop. Stick your pinky through it.
> 
> That's what I feel.
> 
> Not unpleasant.


Does clitoral stimulation do anything for you?


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Do you like your clit bitten?


:rofl:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> Does clitoral stimulation do anything for you?


Yes, actually...takes about 20 seconds :smthumbup:


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Yes, actually...takes about 20 seconds :smthumbup:


You have definitely got something to work with then :smthumbup:
It not unusual for PIV to not do much for some.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Yes, actually...takes about 20 seconds :smthumbup:


A lot of women feel little to no stimulation from just vaginal penetration.

I think if you mentioned earlier that you are, like most women (thought not my wife oddly enough), stimulated by your clitoral glans, people would have classified you as much more "normal" than they have so far.

Does your man not give you satisfying oral sex?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> A lot of women feel little to no stimulation from just vaginal penetration.
> 
> I think if you mentioned earlier that you are, like most women (thought not my wife oddly enough), stimulated by your clitoral glans, people would have classified you as much more "normal" than they have so far.
> 
> Does your man not give you satisfying oral sex?


I mean, it feels....nice. Not mind blowing or anything. I like that he likes it though, it's cute to see his face get all red.

Honestly, most things I like about sexual things revolve around my reaction to his reaction. I can't enjoy it if he isn't enjoying it which is why I was hesitant to voice my issues...he's going to be too focused on pleasing me and not himself. 

I get uncomfortable when the attention is on me for too long.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I get uncomfortable when the attention is on me for too long.


Do you have an idea why that is?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Do you like your clit bitten?


We'd get a much better sampling on that question if the forum Nazis hadn't taken down my poll.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I get uncomfortable when the attention is on me for too long.


All evidence to the contrary on this forum notwithstanding.

I don't mean that as a slam. You certainly seem to be thriving on the attention received here garnered from these discussions. I'm a little surprised to hear that your sex life is so different. 

That has always been a problem for my wife in the bedroom. And it has had serious consequences for our sexuality.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> All evidence to the contrary on this forum notwithstanding.
> 
> I don't mean that as a slam. You certainly seem to be thriving on the attention received here garnered from these discussions. I'm a little surprised to hear that your sex life is so different.
> 
> That has always been a problem for my wife in the bedroom. And it has had serious consequences for our sexuality.


I am fairly neutral to attention.

Neither shy nor precocious. If you knew me in real life, you'd probably like me. Most everybody likes me, I'm like pretty wallpaper that doesn't speak in real life.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> Do you have an idea why that is?


I think it's a power thing. I trained myself not to give an inch or show any signs of pleasure for the longest time so as not to give Mr Wonderful the satisfaction. 

I'm way more comfortable giving than getting. 

I give really, really good bjs. :smthumbup:


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I am fairly neutral to attention.
> 
> Neither shy nor precocious. If you knew me in real life, you'd probably like me. Most everybody likes me, I'm like pretty wallpaper that doesn't speak in real life.


I probably wouldn't _dislike_ you, but there's a good chance I wouldn't care much either way.

I much prefer people with a slight excess of personality for my friends while sliding past the bland wallpaper. But I remember being you, when I was 20. I found my inner voice, and I was lucky enough to have a woman who tolerated the before and after with some grace. 

You're not as neutral to the attention as you would have us believe. I have a daughter your age, and neither is she. It's one of the occupational hazards of the Facebook/Myspace/Twitter/IM generation.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I probably wouldn't _dislike_ you, but there's a good chance I wouldn't care much either way.
> 
> I much prefer people with a slight excess of personality for my friends while sliding past the bland wallpaper. But I remember being you, when I was 20. I found my inner voice, and I was lucky enough to have a woman who tolerated the before and after with some grace.
> 
> You're not as neutral to the attention as you would have us believe. I have a daughter your age, and neither is she. It's one of the occupational hazards of the Facebook/Myspace/Twitter/IM generation.


I deleted my Facebook when I was 15.

Mindless drabble if you ask me.


----------



## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> That's a little bit ridiculous, sorry. And ffs, I am so tired of the word "NEED" being thrown around like it's nothing.
> 
> *If you dont think its a need, thats your perogitive, ignore it and see what happens*
> 
> ...


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

airbabe, have you had sex with the majority of men in this world? Or even in your country? Do you know the majority of women in this world? Or in you country? 

If not, then you have absolutely NO idea what the majority of men do or don't do. You are not qualified to say whether or not most men are bad in bed, whether or not most men know it, or whether or not most men respond like little immature brats when told they're not sexually satisfying. There are plenty of men who have been on this forum and genuinely asked the question, "Is my wife just not turned on by me?" because they were concerned. And so many men and women have responded, giving them suggestions on how to improve their sexual appeal and ability. 

Your perception of male and female sexual interaction is based on your minimal experience with your friends(who, in my opinion, are getting exactly what they deserve for pushing all of their responsibility onto their husbands who should just magically know that they don't like to have their clitoris bitten...bullsh!t), and a very few posts here. I think I saw the thread you mentioned, where you suggested to the guy that he may not be satisfying in bed. For that one thread I have seen countless others where the husband was genuinely concerned that he wasn't sexually satisfying to his wife, and was asking for help. 

This is why I despise modern feminism so much. It's entirely about making men out to be evil, cruel, and just downright stupid, immature and whiny, when women are no better than men in that regard. 
"My husband is a bad lover." 
"Really, why?"
"He bites my clitoris." 
"Have you told him not to do it?"
"Well, no, of course I haven't told him I don't like it!"
"...Why not?"
"Because I know that he'll get angry and hurt and he'll act like a spoiled brat. I just know he will."

Unbelievable. We all like to shirk our personal responsibilities onto other people. It takes the guilt off of us, and makes us feel like we deserve better than what we have, which makes us feel like we're so much better than others because we take less than we deserve "for the sake of our spouse who we love so much". That's not love. That's manipulation and self-pity. True love would be doing the right thing and being brave and saying, "I don't like it when you bite my clitoris." And if the guy throws a tantrum? Suggest counseling or something. Buy him a book about how to please a woman. Or hell, start with that from the beginning! The majority of self-help books regarding sex and oral sex make it clear for both the man and the woman that teeth can often cause pain on the clitoris and penis, and to never do it unless you ask first and they say yes, or they ask you to do it. And there are hundreds of oral sex books out there to help people. I learned how to better my orgasms through oral by reading one. 

There are so many resources women could utilize to help their husbands(and themselves) in the art of making love. It's their own fault if they don't try, and I don't pity them a jot.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> airbabe, have you had sex with the majority of men in this world? Or even in your country? Do you know the majority of women in this world? Or in you country?
> 
> If not, then you have absolutely NO idea what the majority of men do or don't do. You are not qualified to say whether or not most men are bad in bed, whether or not most men know it, or whether or not most men respond like little immature brats when told they're not sexually satisfying. There are plenty of men who have been on this forum and genuinely asked the question, "Is my wife just not turned on by me?" because they were concerned. And so many men and women have responded, giving them suggestions on how to improve their sexual appeal and ability.
> 
> ...


I agree with both of you.

Some men really do have their heads up their asses but it's still up to the woman to tell him.

Besides, if he behaves like a little *****, do you really want to be married to him anyway?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I agree with both of you.
> 
> Some men really do have their heads up their asses but it's still up to the woman to tell him.
> 
> Besides, if he behaves like a little *****, do you really want to be married to him anyway?


The key there is _some_. Not many, and certainly not most. And if the man is really that clueless, how the hell is he supposed to change if she doesn't say anything? And if he is really so immature as to through some kind of tantrum, I would say he's not mature enough to be in any kind of serious relationship, and she should find someone else. And if a woman is so immature and pathetic that she can't be honest about what pleases her and what doesn't, she doesn't belong in any kind of serious relationship either.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> The key there is _some_. Not many, and certainly not most. And if the man is really that clueless, how the hell is he supposed to change if she doesn't say anything? And if he is really so immature as to through some kind of tantrum, I would say he's not mature enough to be in any kind of serious relationship, and she should find someone else. And if a woman is so immature and pathetic that she can't be honest about what pleases her and what doesn't, she doesn't belong in any kind of serious relationship either.


It's kind of confusing, pander to an ego (if he does have a big one) then whine that your doing it


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I told him about the abuse.
> 
> Now I'm going to tell him about this.
> 
> ...


The honesty from this post is admirable. You're right that you're not a bad person. I wish you luck.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> I was a virgin when I met my husband. He talked with me about oral, and wanted me to give it to him. I had never given oral before, and had no idea how to. In my thoughts, I wondered what kind of sensation teeth would give. If he hadn't told me, "Oh, don't use your teeth", I wouldn't have known not to. He had a girlfriend who used her teeth on his penis, and she was quite experienced as far as partner number was concerned. So, sometimes, it's not as simple as "it should just be understood".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. It's maddening when someone doesn't want to communicate and then becomes upset when the other partner assumes. 

Generally, we get into trouble when we say things "should be like this or that" or "most/all men act like this" or "all women expect this or that." 

Talk about assumptions...


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> airbabe, have you had sex with the majority of men in this world? Or even in your country? Do you know the majority of women in this world? Or in you country?
> 
> *Yes, I've had sex with most men in the world, and know most of the women :smthumbup:*
> 
> ...


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

> Your perception of male and female sexual interaction is based on your minimal experience with your friends(who, in my opinion, are getting exactly what they deserve for pushing all of their responsibility onto their husbands..(snip)..I think I saw the thread you mentioned, where you suggested to the guy that he may not be satisfying in bed. For that one thread I have seen countless others where the husband was genuinely concerned that he wasn't sexually satisfying to his wife, and was asking for help.
> 
> This is why I despise modern feminism so much. It's entirely about making men out to be evil, cruel, and just downright stupid, immature and whiny, when women are no better than men in that regard...snip...The key there is some. Not many, and certainly not most. And if the man is really that clueless, how the hell is he supposed to change if she doesn't say anything? And if he is really so immature as to through some kind of tantrum, I would say he's not mature enough to be in any kind of serious relationship, and she should find someone else. And if a woman is so immature and pathetic that she can't be honest about what pleases her and what doesn't, she doesn't belong in any kind of serious relationship either.


Mrs. Created2Write, I am right now writing a note to my Government, to ensure that you will never, ever, ever get a job as a marriage counsellor in my country. You're too good, our divorce lawyers will be out of the job!! 


Joking aside, Honest communications and genuine, mutual respect is the key. 

You Western people are lucky to be able to seek out persons you love and respect. Many people from other parts of the world aren't that lucky, some of us are still living under the culture of arranged marriages. You Western people has the chance to seek out a marriage out of mutual love and mutual respect, and thus having a better opportunity to develop a more satisfying marriage. Take that advantage to forge your own happiness.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

JoeHenderson said:


> Exactly. It's maddening when someone doesn't want to communicate and then becomes upset when the other partner assumes.
> 
> Generally, we get into trouble when we say things "should be like this or that" or "most/all men act like this" or "all women expect this or that."
> 
> Talk about assumptions...


:iagree:


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

aribabe said:


> What qualifications does any person need to use common sense lol.
> It's clear that many (most?) men are bad lovers. Just look at this board lol. The men are biting their lovers, attempting to coerce them into anal, a post i made a little while back revealed that many of the men don't even know what a female orgasm genuinely "looks like".
> I don't know what threads you're referring to...
> But when i mentioned that the wife clearly didn't find him arousing, i was called all sorts of things. None of them positive
> ...


You use the term, common sense, irresponsibly. Making sweeping statements and assumptions about billions of people (men) is faulty logic. Not all the men here are trying to coerce their women into anal sex. Some of us would like to try it, but there are just as many men in here telling other men that's it's not worth coercing their partners into sexual acts. 

Once again, there are some men who are as whiny, egocentric, and take accept the feedback their partners want to give them. However, it's possible that there are just as many women out there who want their men to mind-read their sexual needs/desires or are too immature or inhibited to open up the discussion. 

Personal responsibility works both ways. 

There are men & women who are bad in bed. 

There are men & women who don't want to learn how to become better lovers.

There are men & women who don't communicate their sexual desires/needs to their partners. 

AND

There are men & women who do want to communicate their sexual desires, want to become better lovers, and are willing to listen. 

Actually, some of these people have been replying to your posts, but you still want to grasp onto your worldview of how men and women operate.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> It's clear that many (most?) men are bad lovers. Just look at this board lol. The men are biting their lovers, attempting to coerce them into anal, a post i made a little while back revealed that many of the men don't even know what a female orgasm genuinely "looks like".


Bull****.

You came in with that presumption in the first post and were pretty roundly told by everyone who answered that you were wrong.

Which I guess proves your point somehow?


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Originally Posted by Created2Write View Post
> airbabe, have you had sex with the majority of men in this world? Or even in your country? Do you know the majority of women in this world? Or in you country?
> 
> Yes, I've had sex with most men in the world, and know most of the women
> ...


I read this. Then I bit into an unripe persimmon. It tasted so sweet and wonderful.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

JoeHenderson said:


> (snip)
> Personal responsibility works both ways.
> 
> There are men & women who are bad in bed.
> ...


:iagree:

yea Mr. Henderson, that sounds like what you describe..


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's not my fault that ability to physically enjoyed it has been botched forever.
> 
> I do a great many things for my fiancé, including sleep with him (with enthusiasm and love).
> 
> I really don't think I deserve to lose him because I don't physically enjoy sex....he loved me before we started having sex. So why would me not "enjoying" it now change that...?


Why is sleeping with him, doing something for him? I think we all can agree sex in a long-term relationship is important. So why is sleeping with him doing something for him? If he does the dishes, is he doing something for you, or doing something that should be a regular part of the relationship?

Doing something for him would be getting him tickets to his favorite hockey game, or cooking him breakfast in bed, something unexpected.

Also, you may think you don't deserve to lose him, but does he deserve to be fed a lie about how you feel about sex?



LittleBird said:


> I can't tell him I don't like sex...can I? He'd probably have a hernia.
> 
> I don't mind doing it...I may at the time but I don't resent him for it afterwards.


Why can't you? Because of how he might react? He's an adult, he should be trusted to have an adult reaction. If he doesn't, why are you with him?



LittleBird said:


> I will never like sex. But I couldn't even bring myself to do it if I didn't really love him.
> 
> I know I have issues, I know that. But he's not super mature (yet, he has great potential) and I think he'd go "What do you mean sex isn't mind blowing for you? What am I doing wrong?"
> 
> ...


If he acts like this, why be with him?

Also, you said you are expecting the sex to drop off in the coming years. The only way it'll drop is if you drop it, so how do you expect him to react when you start saying no a few times a week when you haven't hardly said no at all yet? If you think he won't be upset then, you're wrong.



WorkingOnMe said:


> Ha. Yes I made the assumption that the definition of bad is below average. I can make that assumption because when you're talking about something that subjective any definition works.


To me bad would be in the bottom say 1/4 or 1/3. Below average isn't great, but hardly bad, and often those type of lovers can be improved on with some pleasant work.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

> What qualifications does any person need to use common sense lol.
> It's clear that many (most?) men are bad lovers. Just look at this board lol.


....Firstly, how on God's green earth does one silly message board define how _most_ men are? How many millions of men are there in the world? How many men are there on this bound? Seven thousand? Please. Assuming your perceptions are perfect, if you're using this board to define how men are as a gender, then you need a drastic wake up call. 

Secondly, you are not the all mighty seer into the lives and sexual abilities of men here. Sure, some of the men who come here are selfish, self-centered and egotistical. Sure, some of the men here are more concerned with getting anal sex, then saving their marriages long term. _But_ those men are few and far between the majority who genuinely love their wives and want to please them sexually. 

This while thing about men being bad lovers is just an excuse for women to deny their husband's sex any damn time they please. It's pathetic. "I shouldn't have to have sex with him because he sucks in bed." 

So childish.



> The men are biting their lovers, attempting to coerce them into anal, a post i made a little while back revealed that many of the men don't even know what a female orgasm genuinely "looks like".


_*I*_ didn't even know what oral sex was until I met my husband. I never masturbated as a teen, never had any sexual fantasies or thoughts, and my parents kept me away from sexual education. I thought oral sex had to do with boobs. So when my husband(then boyfriend), went down on me the first time I had no idea what was going on, but man oh man, I sure learned. And since I had never orgasmed before, I had no idea how to orgasm, what it would feel like, how long it would take. It took many, many tried with oral and hand jobs, and a ton of reading on my part, to figure out who orgasms even worked. 

A woman's sexuality is NOT her husband's responsibility. _She_ must be willing to work with him and help him. 



> I don't know what threads you're referring to...


A lot of them. The ones I recall specifically were about a year ago.



> But when i mentioned that the wife clearly didn't find him arousing, i was called all sorts of things. None of them positive


Firstly, you come across as if you think you know everything about male and female sexuality; as if you, yourself, have access to every individuals personal sexual diaries and issues, when _you don't_. You realize that when you say most men are bad lovers, you are including every man on this forum in that statement? And yet you expect them to like what you're saying?

Secondly, sometimes the harsh truth(the man isn't good in bed) has a specific time and place to be said, and when someone is hurting and in pain from issues in their marriage, and they're looking for help, the last thing they need right then is to be told that a woman thinks the problem is _their_ problem. It's incredibly offensive, even if it is true. So maybe what you said was true, and maybe the men responding to you were upset because what you said hit close to home. Regardless, _how_ something is said can make the difference between it being accepted, and everyone calling you bad names.



> lol, they magically know not to beat their wives, but knowing not to bite their clitorises takes a special skill that men apparently aren't privy too.
> Again, back to men taking an iota of personal responsibility.
> Women are not the gate keepers of male sexuality.


Ugh! It's like you're not even reading what I'm saying. Listen, my husband had two sexual partners before me. When he started giving me oral, he was rather rough with his tongue. One of the girls he dated before me liked that. I didn't. Was he supposed to magically know that I didn't like it? 

You don't know every woman on this planet. Some women like anal, and even orgasm from it. Some women like having their clitoris bitten. I'm sure that there are men who are sadistic and like to cause their women pain, and they bite the clitoris on purpose. But each woman has her own sexual tastes, and sometimes a man dates a woman who loved anal, while the woman he marries hates it. It's not his fault that women are individually different in their sexual tastes. 

Now, I will say that if a man dates a woman who likes having her clitoris bitten, and then they break up and he dates another woman, before biting the clitoris he should doubt check. Communication is a two-way street, after all. But, woman have a responsibility to say, "Just so you know, I don't like anal and I don't like having my clitoris bitten." A woman assuming the man will automatically know not to bite her clitoris is just as wrong as a man assuming his new girlfriend will like having her clitoris bitten. 

_Both_ are responsible to communicate their likes and dislikes. You like to make it out to be entirely the man's fault. When it isn't. Women have responsibilities too.



> Men aren't evil or cruel. Many (most?) are just ego centric, and that makes them act stupid, immature, and whiny, especially in regards to sexuality....


So you do think men are just tall children? Good to know. Now I can really see our disconnect. 



> But that is not women's fault.


Is a man really is so immature that he can't take even an ounce of constructive criticism, then no, that's not the woman's fault. But if the woman assumes that the man is incapable of change or improvement, because all men are whiny, immature, pathetic babies, then she is _also_ at fault, but for a different reason. The man's reaction isn't her fault, but her narrow-minded assumptions about the male gender as a whole _is_. And neither are mature enough to be in a relationship.



> Men aren't children, Created2Write


Apparently you think they are. You think they're fragile, whiny, pathetic, tantrum throwing little brats.



> And because you reference them like they are, we disconnect.


Between the two of us, which of us has said that men are bad in bed because they're too whiny and immature to handle criticism? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't me. 



> If a woman expresses her dissatisfaction in a sexually hostile environment,
> And her husband responds in a hostile way (tantrum, pity party, passive aggression)
> It is not her responsibility to handle his tantrum
> Then take him to a counselor
> ...


I never said it was. 

Let's play out a scenario: Man is married to Woman. Woman is unhappy with sex life because Man likes to bite her clitoris sometimes, and it hurts. Man is, otherwise, a great guy. He doesn't usually raise his voice, and he has never acted out in anger by hitting her or the children or the wall, or anything. Man has done this for years, but Woman was too weak and scared to speak up. So now she's resentful.

Who has the most responsibility here? If the man genuinely is clueless about what he's doing, then what responsibility does he have? You say men don't know they're bad in bed, so if that's true, then he doesn't know that anything needs to be fixed. Therefore, it is the woman's responsibility to tell him. 

Now, if the scenario is that Man knows that Woman doesn't like it, but he does it anyway, then he's a sadist and she needs to leave him. Otherwise, he doesn't know that anything is wrong. You say, "He should just know". Yeah. Women like to use that phrase a lot with men, but what women fail to consider, is that something...men just don't know. They're not stupid or dumb, they just genuinely do not know what turns their wives on. That's not a crime, it's a breach in communication. And if the wife refuses to say when anything is wrong, it's her own fault. 

And if, let's say, she has told him before, "I don't like this", and his response was to throw a tantrum, then she really is married to someone who is too immature to be in a relationship. 

It's simple.



> Where does his personal accountability come in.
> Do men have any?


Of course. Once the wife has said, "I don't like it when you do this or this", it is then his responsibility to make sure he doesn't do those things. But if he doesn't know that a certain position hurts, or that he's moving his fingers too roughly, how is it his responsibility to fix anything? 

Now, I don't know any men who actually bite a woman's clitoris, but assuming that the man is bad in bed all around, women have a responsibility to _help_. Why? Because _she_ is the only one who knows what _she_ likes. No two woman are going to have the exact same sexual tastes. So for him to pick up a sex book and say, "That'll make me better in bed", it likely won't work because only his wife knows what she likes and what she doesn't. 

Satisfying sex is the responsibility of BOTH this husband and the wife. 



> Again
> Personal Accountability
> A man is bad in bed so he blames his wife
> She works with his ego, and she's still at fault
> ...


So you think that a man is the only one responsible for whether or not the sex between him and his wife is good?


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol
Jaharthur, don't be a part of the bunched panty crew
If you believe you're a good lover, let that be good enough 



jaharthur said:


> I read this. Then I bit into an unripe persimmon. It tasted so sweet and wonderful.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Just put down my laptop and gave my husband a BJ while he was playing COD online. I told him, "I'm going to suck you now. And you can't stop playing the game either. If you stop playing, I stop sucking. Oh, and if you lose the game, no more BJ's for you." (I was kidding.)
> 
> He said it was so hot and turned him on so much. It took less than eight minutes.
> 
> And you think men have high sexual expectations because...why?


In eight minutes, you have earned a perpetual place on a pedestal. And that doesn't even credit you for your openmindedness and effort in your marriage previous to this. I salute you.



LittleBird said:


> If I really didn't care about him I'd just shut my legs and be done with it...but that would make HIM unhappy and that would make me MISERABLE. I don't say no to him, I don't say no to anyone because I just *hate* disappointing people.
> 
> I'm not trying to manipulate him to hurt him, I'm just trying to give him what he wants.
> 
> But I'll tell him. He deserves that.


I think maybe part of your problem is this. Why do you have to please everyone, all the time? Why not please you?


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

aribabe said:


> *What qualifications does any person need to use common sense lol.
> It's clear that many (most?) men are bad lovers. Just look at this board lol. The men are biting their lovers, attempting to coerce them into anal, a post i made a little while back revealed that many of the men don't even know what a female orgasm genuinely "looks like".
> I don't know what threads you're referring to...
> But when i mentioned that the wife clearly didn't find him arousing, i was called all sorts of things. None of them positive*


I think it is equally clear that many (most?) women are bad lovers. The women don't want to try new things, new positions, to see if there would be another position they would like. No, I don't mean they need to try anal or hang from chandeliers. I mean if they are used to missionary all the time, why not try cowgirl or reverse cowgirl? Some aren't even willing to try that. They would rather lay there and, as was pointed out before, count tiles until he's done. 

I find it fascinating that even those who know their wives, know their bodies, and notice even the tiniest changes in them, you have told them they are wrong, mistaken, damn near even calling them liars.



aribabe said:


> *lol, they magically know not to beat their wives, but knowing not to bite their clitorises takes a special skill that men apparently aren't privy too.
> Again, back to men taking an iota of personal responsibility.
> Women are not the gate keepers of male sexuality.*


Again, back to the fact that if their wives ACT like they like something (IOW FAKE IT), how are they supposed to know better? They assume their wives LIKE it because they PRETEND to like it... and they refuse to say differently. No, a man isn't supposed to automatically know what a woman likes...just as a woman isn't supposed to automatically know what a man likes. It's called communication. If you don't TELL, he (or she) won't KNOW. 



aribabe said:


> *Men aren't evil or cruel. Many (most?) are just ego centric, and that makes them act stupid, immature, and whiny, especially in regards to sexuality....
> But that is not women's fault.*


Just as it isn't the man's fault when a woman acts stupid and immature and whiny in regards to sexuality. Many (most?) women have the egocentric problem as well. If she doesn't like something, and refuses to tell her partner, then it IS her own fault. Just as if a man doesn't like something and just whines and cries because his wife doesn't know, yet doesn't TELL her, then it's his own damn fault.




aribabe said:


> *Men aren't children, Created2Write
> And because you reference them like they are, we disconnect.
> If a woman expresses her dissatisfaction in a sexually hostile environment,
> And her husband responds in a hostile way (tantrum, pity party, passive aggression)
> ...


She's not referencing them as children. If anyone is, it is you. You make them sound like whiny brats because they don't get what they want, or because they don't know what their wives want... because they don't TELL them. If someone is in a sexually hostile environment, no, she should NOT continue having sex... not until it is resolved, or at least improved. But, again, things will only get worse as long as she is faking, and just going through the motions.



aribabe said:


> *Again
> Personal Accountability
> A man is bad in bed so he blames his wife
> She works with his ego, and she's still at fault
> ...


A woman is bad in bed so she blames her husband.
He works with HER ego, and he is still at fault
He accommodates her, still at fault
He cuts off sex, still at fault
He doesn't get her a counselor/therapist/sexologist/book/sticker, he's still at fault
And the woman remains the "poor girl"

I can't accept THAT. Sorry, I don't. I have no sympathy for a woman who thinks her husband is a bad lover and, rather than try to work it out together by communicating, she fakes her orgasms, and seethes inside. She grows bitter and resentful, telling her friends how awful he is. Meanwhile, the guy is clueless because she won't f'n talk to him about it. Rather, she'd prefer blabbing her woes to her friends, getting their sympathy, telling her "you poor girl, putting up with that!" Then a new woman enters the circle and she hears it all for the first time:

"Have you tried telling him what you like?"
"Well, no... he should just know!"
"Do you know what he likes?"
"Of course not! He never tells me!"
"..... How can you expect anything to get better if you don't discuss it?"
"You don't know what you're talking about!"

And she goes on faking her orgasms because she's too stubborn/proud to admit that the new girl is right.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I think it is equally clear that many (most?) women are bad lovers. The women don't want to try new things, new positions, to see if there would be another position they would like. No, I don't mean they need to try anal or hang from chandeliers. I mean if they are used to missionary all the time, why not try cowgirl or reverse cowgirl? Some aren't even willing to try that. They would rather lay there and, as was pointed out before, count tiles until he's done.
> 
> I find it fascinating that even those who know their wives, know their bodies, and notice even the tiniest changes in them, you have told them they are wrong, mistaken, damn near even calling them liars.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

Precisely.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Ugh....
My computer shutdown to do some updates and I had this whole thing typed out
Sorry

Suffice to say, I'll respond in detail a little later Created2Write
But for now I'll say this.
Both men and women are responsible for their own sexuality
It is not a woman's responsibity to make a man an adequate lover
And vice versa
Both parties need to create a sexually open environment
If one party has to do all the heavy work
Getting the other to the doctor/dentist/therapist/counselor/self help books/etc. That is an issue.
And that goes from sexual inadequacy to weight to whatever
If I create an environment where my husband feels "unsafe". I can not blame him for feeling unsafe.
If a woman has been "faking it" while he does things she finds unpleasurable, it is certainly her fault if he continues to do it. I've mentioned that in other threads.
I do however,think faking it is a great way to teach a man to be better in bed,that doesn't hurt his feelings or his ego.
I don't blame women for working around men's ego's.
K, that was the gist of it lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> In eight minutes, you have earned a perpetual place on a pedestal. And that doesn't even credit you for your openmindedness and effort in your marriage previous to this. I salute you.
> 
> 
> 
> I think maybe part of your problem is this. Why do you have to please everyone, all the time? Why not please you?


This is a good question.

Please me? In 20 years, I don't think I've ever really given that part much thought. I suppose because my mother raised me to give the man what he wants, all the time, or else. 

In an effort to be selfless, it appears I've actually become a bit selfish...maybe that's not what he wants. 

Mind ****.


----------



## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Holland said:


> Like I said earlier, by the very virtue of the fact that their needs are so low.


That doesn't make any sense, let me give you an example: My love language is acts of service. One of those acts of service is taking out the garbage. My husband doesn't need the garbage taken out as much as I do, so he is LD...so if he doesn't take out the garbage does this mean that he is getting his needs met?

LOL I'll tell him that tonight and see what he says.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This is a good question.
> 
> Please me? In 20 years, I don't think I've ever really given that part much thought. I suppose because my mother raised me to give the man what he wants, all the time, or else.
> 
> ...


I like your openness and willingness to consider feedback.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Ugh....
> My computer shutdown to do some updates and I had this whole thing typed out
> Sorry
> 
> ...


Responsibility? No. But as his wife she should be willing to _help_ him by communicating what she does and doesn't like. Just like he needs to be willing to listen and learn from her.



> Both parties need to create a sexually open environment
> If one party has to do all the heavy work
> Getting the other to the doctor/dentist/therapist/counselor/self help books/etc. That is an issue.
> And that goes from sexual inadequacy to weight to whatever


I agree, but this requires both people to communicate and listen.



> If I create an environment where my husband feels "unsafe". I can not blame him for feeling unsafe.


Of course not. And if a husband has created an unsafe environment, then the woman needs to get away from him. Not just deny sex. They need counseling, professional help. Not faking sexual pleasure.



> If a woman has been "faking it" while he does things she finds unpleasurable, it is certainly her fault if he continues to do it. I've mentioned that in other threads.


Which is my point. A man can't just magically figure out that his wife doesn't like certain things if she's faking it.



> I do however,think faking it is a great way to teach a man to be better in bed,that doesn't hurt his feelings or his ego.
> I don't blame women for working around men's ego's.
> K, that was the gist of it lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree. Faking only makes things worse.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

She should be willing to tell him what she likes and he should make her feel comfortable doing so.
Both have a personal responsibity.
And neither can blame the other for their lack of personal responsibility.

I have never told my husband NOT to set my hair on fire
And I've never had my hair set on fire
But if he set it on fire
He couldn't blame me for not telling him NOT to do it lol
Personal Accountabilty

I think faking it is an awesome way to teach a man to be better in bed.
And he gets to leave with his ego intact.

Win Win

And the woman doesn't get called a prude 



Created2Write said:


> Responsibility? No. But as his wife she should be willing to _help_ him by communicating what she does and doesn't like. Just like he needs to be willing to listen and learn from her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

aribabe said:


> What qualifications does any person need to use common sense lol.


For the purpose of this discussion, it apparently would involve an awareness of some common logical fallacies people commit in casual conversation.

One of these fallacies is called, "Hasty generalization" 

Hasty generalizations occur when what is true of a small sample is assumed to be true of the whole. A simple example would be:

A. Sally and Jane stole my wallet
B. Sally and Jane are women

Therefore most women are thieves.​
This is obviously wrong and unfair. You can't use inductive logic as a deductive argument. 

Valid deductions go from the general to the specific, not from the specific to the general


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> She should be willing to tell him what she likes and he should make her feel comfortable doing so.


I agree. 



> Both have a personal responsibity.
> And neither can blame the other for their lack of personal responsibility.


I don't disagree...



> I have never told my husband NOT to set my hair on fire
> And I've never had my hair set on fire
> But if he set it on fire
> He couldn't blame me for not telling him NOT to do it lol
> Personal Accountabilty


Sexual tastes are NOT and never will be blatant. Not abusing your spouse is pretty common sense. Not lighting your spouses hair on fire is pretty common sense. Sexual tastes aren't based on common sense because no two people are going to have the exact same sexual tastes. You keep assuming that _your_ sexual tastes are universally accepted by all women, so it therefore must be common knowledge that all women hate what you hate. 

Not so. Sexual tastes are so far from "common sense". The wife has a personal responsibility to be honest about what she does and does not like. And the man has a responsibility to listen and learn from her.



> I think faking it is an awesome way to teach a man to be better in bed.
> And he gets to leave with his ego intact.
> 
> Win Win
> ...


Just to see how ridiculous this really is, answer me this: in what way does faking "teach" a man to be better in bed?


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I think faking it is an awesome way to teach a man to be better in bed.
> And he gets to leave with his ego intact.
> 
> Win Win
> ...


How does faking teach a man to be better in bed? How in the world can a man believe he is doing well/right, if his wife is telling him that what DOESN'T work for her, is working? Yea, I know, you and I have had this discussion before when you said you fake it with your husband and I said I refuse to fake it...which makes my husband happy. He doesn't want me to pretend that something works when it doesn't. And he also knows that there are times when I just won't O... the thing is, he also knows I do enjoy sex with him, even when I don't O because  I am honest with him about it. Shocking, I know. 

I don't get called a prude by my husband. I don't fake anything with him, nor have I ever with any other partner. It truly is sad when a man can't handle when his wife tells him the truth.

From what I can see, faking is "Lose Lose"... she's not getting what she wants, he's not learning what she wants and then she gets pissed off because he sucks because she would rather pretend to like what he's doing than tell him the truth. Yea... that's definitely a winning situation.


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> If you've read this forum long enuf, you know men complain about not enuf sex or HOW they get sex (meaning they have to initiate most of the time). Women complain he wants it too much, or isn't satisfied that she DOES have sex bcuz she loves hum, but not bcuz she is gagging for it.
> 
> Statistically, it would seem these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, it comes off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off.
> 
> ...


Your dysfunctional sex life does not speak for our healthy sex life. This place is not representative. It is largely populated by people with problems, so getting support on dysfunctional world views is to be expected. 

It goes for everything else too, from cooking food to tending the yard or vehicles, paying the bills, keeping the place stocked etc. Either spouse can do a lousy job at it and let the other spouse know how much they hate doing it.

On the other hand when the husband can actually watch the garbage can and empty it without being told and the wife can put food down in front of him before he says he is hungry. Both of them can feel great about doing it too. 

I cannot speak out more strongly against justifications for dishonesty you see in this thread and elsewhere. Generally you see the "I'm lying for his own good" rationalization. That is a liar in the middle of lying about their reason. Blame mom. Blame the man. Blame anyone except yourself for being a liar. 

Show your pity for him by emphasizing his poor, shallow ego that would be shattered into a thousand pieces if you don't fake things for him. yes, women the world over fawn after men they pity. All the great athletes, business leaders, powerful politicians, warriors - the key insight is how everyone has such pity for them. Pity is the cornerstone of admiration. 

This kind of deceit will not be limited to sex. The logic of lying works wherever a rationalization can be found - and that is everywhere. Well, you get what you deserve in the long run.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> How does faking teach a man to be better in bed? How in the world can a man believe he is doing well/right, if his wife is telling him that what DOESN'T work for her, is working? Yea, I know, you and I have had this discussion before when you said you fake it with your husband and I said I refuse to fake it...which makes my husband happy. He doesn't want me to pretend that something works when it doesn't. And he also knows that there are times when I just won't O... the thing is, he also knows I do enjoy sex with him, even when I don't O because  I am honest with him about it. Shocking, I know.
> 
> I don't get called a prude by my husband. I don't fake anything with him, nor have I ever with any other partner. It truly is sad when a man can't handle when his wife tells him the truth.
> 
> From what I can see, faking is "Lose Lose"... she's not getting what she wants, he's not learning what she wants and then she gets pissed off because he sucks because she would rather pretend to like what he's doing than tell him the truth. Yea... that's definitely a winning situation.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Sexual tastes should be based on common sense
And if you don't have the common sense not to bite your wife's clitors, or bite your husband's testicles, or "accidentally" slip your penis into your wife's anus, or begine "fisting" her.
Then you have the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY to learn that it is bad to do those things.
You don't bite your wife's clitoris and then blame her for NOT telling you NOT to do that prior.
That's absoutely insane and absolves men of all personal accountabilty.
But men aren't children.
I'm not going to treat them like they are.

You said most sexual self help books advise men not to bite their wife's clitoris.
Well he has the personal responsibity to read those books.
It is not his wife's responsibilty to get the book, open it to the chapter, then sit it in his lap.
Personal accountability.

If your husband dos something you like/love, exaggerating your reponse by faking it is a wonderful way to encourage him to continue doing it


Created2Write said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Sexual tastes should be based on common sense


My point was that "common sense" doesn't apply to sexual tastes. It _can't_ apply, because a lot of people like a lot of different things. Some women like porn. Some women like lesbian porn. Some men like porn. Some men like lesbian porn. Some men like homosexual porn. Some people like threesomes. Some people like anal. Some people like swallowing their partners sexual juices. Some people like making videos of themselves having sex. Some people like to give and get oral sex. Some women orgasm just by giving their husband a blow job. Some people like roleplay. Some people like doing it in slightly public places. Some people like more pressure on their penis or vagina during oral sex. Some people like to be bound, by handcuffs or scarves. Some people like to be spanked. Some people like to be whipped. Some people like to strip tease. Some people like to send dirty text messages. Some people like to give handjobs in the movie theater. Some people like having sex in bathrooms. 

Get the picture? People have different tastes. Some of the things I just listed don't make sense to me. I absolutely do not see the obsession with anal. It doesn't make sense to me. BUT, it DOES make sense to others. 

You, airbabe, don't get to decide what is or isn't common sense when it comes to sexual tastes for anyone else but yourself. THAT is my point. It may seem like common sense not to bite a girl's clitoris, or a guy's penis, but some _LIKE_ it. You don't get decide what they do or don't like, THEY do.



> And if you don't have the common sense not to bite your wife's clitors, or bite your husband's testicles, or "accidentally" slip your penis into your wife's anus, or begine "fisting" her.
> Then you have the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY to learn that it is bad to do those things.


Who says they're bad? _YOU_, but you don't speak for all of humanity. Sorry to break it to you.



> You don't bite your wife's clitoris and then blame her for NOT telling you NOT to do that prior.
> That's absoutely insane and absolves men of all personal accountabilty.


You are either incapable of seeing the point, or you refuse to. Either way, I'm not going to go around in circles with you. 



> But men aren't children.
> I'm not going to treat them like they are.


Maybe you don't TREAT them like they are, but you sure as hell believe that most ARE children. 



> You said most sexual self help books advise men not to bite their wife's clitoris.
> Well he has the personal responsibity to read those books.
> It is not his wife's responsibilty to get the book, open it to the chapter, then sit it in his lap.
> Personal accountability.


No, that's not what I said. The books I've read said not to do it UNTIL they have asked the woman if they can, and she has said yes, or until she has asked him to do it. They didn't say not to ever do it. 

Sex is NOT just the man's responsibility. SHE has responsibilities in the bedroom too, and one of those responsibilities is communication. If he's doing something she doesn't like, she needs to tell him. If she doesn't want to tell him because she's embarrassed, then yes, it is HER responsibility to buy the book and ask him to read it. 

Women need to be held accountable too.



> If your husband dos something you like/love, exaggerating your reponse by faking it is a wonderful way to encourage him to continue doing it


If I love what he's doing, why would I need to fake my enjoyment? :scratchhead: If my husband does something and I love it, I say, "Oh yeah, baby, just like that!" And it works fine. Why exaggerate it? My husband isn't an idiot. He doesn't need some scream of ecstasy to realize that I like what he's doing. 

I'm starting to realize just how dumb you think men are.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Sexual tastes should be based on common sense
> And if you don't have the common sense not to bite your wife's clitors, or bite your husband's testicles, or "accidentally" slip your penis into your wife's anus, or begine "fisting" her.


Yes, they SHOULD be based on common sense... but you know as well as I do that some are into really weird stuff. A man (or woman) hears about something new from a friend...thinks "Hey! I wanna try that!" So, then next time they have sex, he/she tries it. Nothing wrong with trying...IF both parties are willing. Some things can be thrown out there to surprise the partner. No, I wouldn't put anal or fisting in that category lol. But nibbling, nipping, etc. I could see surprising, maybe.



aribabe said:


> Then you have the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY to learn that it is bad to do those things.
> You don't bite your wife's clitoris and then blame her for NOT telling you NOT to do that prior.
> That's absoutely insane and absolves men of all personal accountabilty.
> But men aren't children.
> I'm not going to treat them like they are.


No, you don't blame your spouse when you don't tell PRIOR. But if he or she does it, and you don't speak up and say "hey! that hurt! don't do it again!", but instead pretend to like it...it's on YOU for letting him or her believe it's ok to do it again.

No, it doesn't absolve a man of anything at all. I agree, they are not children. Children need you to pander to their egos... men do not. They are big boys and can handle more than some women give them credit for.



aribabe said:


> You said most sexual self help books advise men not to bite their wife's clitoris.
> Well he has the personal responsibity to read those books.
> It is not his wife's responsibilty to get the book, open it to the chapter, then sit it in his lap.
> Personal accountability.


And how is he supposed to even know about these books if no one tells him? How is he supposed to know if what he is doing is wrong if no one tells him? Same applies to a woman. How is she to know that her man doesn't like teeth scraping his penis unless he tells her? My husband doesn't like his nipples to be nipped/nibbled/bitten... I do. But I wouldn't know it if he hadn't TOLD me. Some men like the teeth on the penis. Granted, they are likely few and far between, but it doesn't mean they don't exist. You can't know unless you are told what your partner likes... be it word or action. No, you don't have to go out and get the book and open it up then drop it in his lap. But nothing says you can't mention to him that you heard of a book that discusses XYZ and you think it could help. If he doesn't want to get/read it, it absolutely is on him. But, again, he won't know, unless he is told there's something wrong.



aribabe said:


> If your husband dos something you like/love, exaggerating your reponse by faking it is a wonderful way to encourage him to continue doing it


And, again, a man who is in tune with his partner will know without the exaggeration. If you truly like it, he will know by your true response. If you exaggerate it regularly, what happens when you don't respond as "enthusiastically" as before? Then he will start thinking you don't like it anymore. So glad I have no need to do that! Damn, all that BS rather than telling him "OMG! That feels good!" and genuinely meaning it... yea, I'll stick with complete honesty, thanks. :smthumbup:


----------



## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I think faking it is an awesome way to teach a man to be better in bed.
> And he gets to leave with his ego intact.
> 
> Win Win
> ...


I have to disagree for obvious reasons, but what I genuinely want to know is how will he know what you really like when you fake when you like something, and fake it you don't??

I am guilty of faking with boyfriends in the past, and to be honest, sometimes I didn't even know what I liked because I was to busy protecting his ego.

My H asked me to promise not to fake, and of course there were times when it would have been easier to just fake. But I have to say its far better to say something didn't work, than to act like it did.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I have never told my husband NOT to set my hair on fire
> And I've never had my hair set on fire
> But if he set it on fire
> He couldn't blame me for not telling him NOT to do it lol
> Personal Accountabilty


The only thing wrong with this statement is the ambiguity of sexual preference. 

Most women probably never told their lover to not smack them on the ass with a riding crop either, and most men have never tried. Yet there is some portion of the population whose sex lives would be less fulfilled without this activity.

Men and women don't have a common basis for this innate understanding of sexuality you think we should possess. I've never had a vagina, though lord knows I've prayed for one long enough, so my knowledge of how one works and how it likes to be treated comes from the real vagina owner's club. Which means it IS your responsibility to provide me feedback which allows me to do the heavy lifting associated with making your vaj happy.

If I show enthusiasm and take your sexual feedback from your NON-FAKED orgasms into account, and improve, I'm a good lover. Or at least a good lover padawan.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Maricha said:


> No, it doesn't absolve a man of anything at all. I agree, they are not children. Children need you to pander to their egos... men do not. They are big boys and can handle more than some women give them credit for.


Thank you for this. 

My husband has never been upset or angry or hurt or whiny when I've asked him not to do something. He's always just said, "Okay. Sorry", then smiled and put his face back down there, and kept going. There was no need to coddle his ego. His ego was untarnished. If anything, It boosted his ego because now he can safely and honestly say, "Yes, I am a man who satisfies my wife every singe time", because he does. And he does because I told him what I like and what I don't. 

And, surprise, surprise, I don't feel upset or angry that I had to tell him, either. It took all of three seconds to say, "Please don't do that. It hurts", or, "It feels funny", or "You're pushing on my bladder and I'm about to pee on you." Not difficult.

Honesty is the best policy.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Maricha,

I am loathe to have this conversation with you because I know your husband has sexual "issues" that are out of his control.
And it makes me sad that you'd rather he know he was only able to make orgasm 99% of the time, than believe he was able to do it 100% of the time.
I just imagine that if my husband was taking a medication that already impacted his sexual confidence, I would do all I can to uplift it.



Maricha75 said:


> How does faking teach a man to be better in bed? How in the world can a man believe he is doing well/right, if his wife is telling him that what DOESN'T work for her, is working? Yea, I know, you and I have had this discussion before when you said you fake it with your husband and I said I refuse to fake it...which makes my husband happy. He doesn't want me to pretend that something works when it doesn't. And he also knows that there are times when I just won't O... the thing is, he also knows I do enjoy sex with him, even when I don't O because  I am honest with him about it. Shocking, I know.
> 
> I don't get called a prude by my husband. I don't fake anything with him, nor have I ever with any other partner. It truly is sad when a man can't handle when his wife tells him the truth.
> 
> From what I can see, faking is "Lose Lose"... she's not getting what she wants, he's not learning what she wants and then she gets pissed off because he sucks because she would rather pretend to like what he's doing than tell him the truth. Yea... that's definitely a winning situation.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> For the purpose of this discussion, it apparently would involve an awareness of some common logical fallacies people commit in casual conversation.
> 
> One of these fallacies is called, "Hasty generalization"
> 
> ...


:iagree:


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Maricha,
> 
> I am loathe to have this conversation with you because I know your husband has sexual "issues" that are out of his control.
> And it makes me sad that you'd rather he know he was only able to make orgasm 99% of the time, than believe he was able to do it 100% of the time.
> ...


.....

It is really immature, and cruel, to take someone's personal situation and throw back in their face as if she's somehow a bad wife for being HONEST about when she orgasms and when she doesn't. 

My husband isn't on medication and _I_ don't orgasm 100% of the time and my husband's ego is fine. A woman orgasming isn't the be all, end all to a wild, fun night. Sometimes I do not want oral sex, and I tell him. And sometimes, I don't orgasm vaginally, so yes, there are times when I have sex with him and *shocker* I don't orgasm. BFD. 

I would rather have REAL sex, and not orgasm 100& of the time, than lie to my husband and make him think I orgasm every time. And, by the way, vaginal orgasms are hard to fake. He would know if I was lying or not, and THAT really would effect him.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> My husband has never been upset or angry or hurt or whiny when I've asked him not to do something. He's always just said, "Okay. Sorry", then smiled and put his face back down there, and kept going. There was no need to coddle his ego. His ego was untarnished. If anything, It boosted his ego because now he can safely and honestly say, "Yes, I am a man who satisfies my wife every singe time", because he does. And he does because I told him what I like and what I don't.
> 
> ...


Yup. And why does the feedback have to be so threatening or devastating? 

A woman doesn't have to berate her husband about what he's doing wrong nor does she have to fake her response to discourage or encourage activity. 

What if a woman said something like, "it gets me so wet when you..." or "I'd really think it'd be sexy if we did xyz?" 

That's communication and I don't suspect most/all men would shrivel up and die from hearing it.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm not throwing it back in her face
Those are my genuine feelings
If someone "feels" like a bad wife
That's not my issue.
I can't be responsible for anyone's feelings but mine and my husband's.

I also don't orgasm 100% of the time
My husband knows it most of the time
But when we're having a quickie,
My "orgasm" pushes him over the edge like nothing else

And I don't feel the need to say
"Just so you know, I didn't orgasm"
I just have him make it up to me later 



Created2Write said:


> .....
> 
> It is really immature, and cruel, to take someone's personal situation and throw back in their face as if she's somehow a bad wife for being HONEST about when she orgasms and when she doesn't.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm typing on my phone now so I'm not able to be as thorough as i'd like.
Sorry for the relatively short replies.
Computer issues 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> I'm not throwing it back in her face
> Those are my genuine feelings
> If someone "feels" like a bad wife
> That's not my issue.
> I can't be responsible for anyone's feelings but mine and my husband's.


Bullsh!t. How we treat others is 100% our responsibility, and what you said was directly correlated to her personal life. You were chastising her for not faking an orgasm; as if, since her husband is on medication, he needs her to fake an orgasm to make himself feel better. 

I'm gonna be sick. Men are strong and capable. And Maricha is a good woman. One of the wisest ones I've known while being here, and it is honorable of her to be real with her husband and not fake orgasms. Faking orgasms is...well, fake. And fakeness is only needed when the person being fake doesn't know how to be real in the first place.



> I also don't orgasm 100% of the time
> My husband knows it most of the time
> But when we're having a quickie,
> My "orgasm" pushes him over the edge like nothing else


But since it wasn't a real orgasm, how is it really helping anything?



> And I don't feel the need to say
> "Just so you know, I didn't orgasm"
> I just have him make it up to me later
> 
> ...


So you fake orgasm to get him to cum more quickly? Hell, I just talk dirty to my husband and that does it for him. Or I take control on top. There are a lot of sexy, fun things to do to drive a man wild that doesn't involve lying.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Lol
> Jaharthur, don't be a part of the bunched panty crew
> If you believe you're a good lover, let that be good enough
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You keep mentioning this bunched panty crew. Where do these women with the bunched panties meet? Do you call a pack of them a "buncha bunched panties"? Are their panties bunched to keep men from biting their clitorises? At their gatherings, do they teach each other how to fake it? Or just talk about how crappy their hubbies are in bed?

Enquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaharthur said:


> You keep mentioning this bunched panty crew. Where do these women with the bunched panties meet? Do you call a pack of them a "buncha bunched panties"? Are their panties bunched to keep men from biting their clitorises? At their gatherings, do they teach each other how to fake it? Or just talk about how crappy their hubbies are in bed?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know.



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

:allhail:


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I can't chastise her
I don't even know her lol
And how she feels is honestly not my responsibilty
I don't know what else to say about that....

Your husbands liked dirty talk
My husband likes orgasms

We both give them what they want
They're both happy




Created2Write said:


> Bullsh!t. How we treat others is 100% our responsibility, and what you said was directly correlated to her personal life. You were chastising her for not faking an orgasm; as if, since her husband is on medication, he needs her to fake an orgasm to make himself feel better.
> 
> I'm gonna be sick. Men are strong and capable. And Maricha is a good woman. One of the wisest ones I've known while being here, and it is honorable of her to be real with her husband and not fake orgasms. Faking orgasms is...well, fake. And fakeness is only needed when the person being fake doesn't know how to be real in the first place.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I can't enjoy it if he isn't enjoying it


Consider that he also can't fully enjoy it unless you are, and you might be able to make sense of a lot of what has been written in this thread.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I don't know where the women with bunched panties meet lol
Mine are relatively wrinkle free 




jaharthur said:


> You keep mentioning this bunched panty crew. Where do these women with the bunched panties meet? Do you call a pack of them a "buncha bunched panties"? Are their panties bunched to keep men from biting their clitorises? At their gatherings, do they teach each other how to fake it? Or just talk about how crappy their hubbies are in bed?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> If anything, It boosted his ego because now he can safely and honestly say, "Yes, I am a man who satisfies my wife every *singe* time", because he does. And he does because I told him what I like and what I don't.


So he does set your hair on fire.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Yup. And why does the feedback have to be so threatening or devastating?
> 
> A woman doesn't have to berate her husband about what he's doing wrong nor does she have to fake her response to discourage or encourage activity.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I've done this before, while telling my husband that I didn't like something he'd done, but I said it in a sweet, sexy voice, and then offered an alternative for him to try while...well, let's just say while touching him. He didn't even care that I had said anything critical about his form. It was the last thing on his mind, and ya know, he never did that thing I didn't like ever again. 

So this whole thing about men being weak and incapable of taking criticism is bull. Just being used as an excuse to control and oppress men.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> So he does set your hair on fire.


LOL. Touche.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I'm typing on my phone now so I'm not able to be as thorough as i'd like.
> Sorry for the relatively short replies.
> Computer issues
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, most women are terrible with computers.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

K, I've gotta cook
But I'll be back later
Hopefully with a computer that works lol.
I've enjoyed everyone's opinions thus far.
Even the disagreer's 
Talk to you all a little later tonight
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> I can't chastise her
> I don't even know her lol
> And how she feels is honestly not my responsibilty
> I don't know what else to say about that....


*face palm*

What we say and do to others impacts how they feel. That's why mean things hurt people's feelings. So, when you said that you were "loathed" to talk about this with Maricha, because you know her husband has a medical condition and that Maricha didn't coddle her fragile, emotionally weak husband by pretending to orgasm when she didn't, you were flat out saying that she's an insensitive, selfish wife. 

THAT is your responsibility. And it was horrible of you to say that to her. Some of us really don't like lying, and we choose to be honest people. Lying is ALWAYS a bad idea. Always. 



> Your husbands liked dirty talk
> My husband likes orgasms
> 
> We both give them what they want
> ...


If your husband is okay that his wife lies to him on a continuous basis, then suit yourself. _My_ husband is a strong, capable, secure man who can handle the truth, even if it means he doesn't always bring me to orgasm, and would rather have a wife who is honest, than one who sees him as a pathetic, weak child who always needs to have someone holding his hand and lying to him, just so he doesn't have to face reality.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Maricha,
> 
> I am loathe to have this conversation with you because I know your husband has sexual "issues" that are out of his control.
> And it makes me sad that you'd rather he know he was only able to make orgasm 99% of the time, than believe he was able to do it 100% of the time.
> ...


Oh do NOT even go there girl! I have said that I didn't orgasm every time IN THE PAST. We don't have sex as often as we both would like because of his medications, NOW. And NOW, I orgasm every. single. time. we have sex. I have no need to fake it with him because WE are honest with EACH OTHER! He doesn't WANT me to fake anything. He WANTS me to tell him the truth! Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that not every man likes to be LIED to, like your husband does??? Seriously, Aribabe, I can't believe you said that. It was uncalled for. Sorry you can't seem to understand that SOME marriages are based on complete honestly. SOME marriages actually have complete and open honestly. And SOME women don't need to pander to the egos of such "fragile men-children".


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> THAT is your responsibility. And it was horrible of you to say that to her. Some of us really don't like lying, and we choose to be honest people. Lying is ALWAYS a bad idea. Always.


Except for you girls who still fit into your skinny jeans, the truth is NEVER the correct answer to the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?"


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Ok I was gone, but decided to read a little more before I put on my apron and then I read your response.

Maricha, you seem really upset.
And I'm genuinely sorry for saying that to you.
It was mean.
I have personal issues that would really hurt if they were "called out" as well.

I guess being "on the internet" causes people to lose their manners sometimes.
I clearly lost mine for a moment.

I'm genuinely sorry.
I hope you can accept my apology.

I have a very "smart" mouth
Sometimes it can be a cruel delivery.
And I don't want to do that.
Especially to a woman that I honestly believes loves her husband.



Maricha75 said:


> Oh do NOT even go there girl! I have said that I didn't orgasm every time IN THE PAST. We don't have sex as often as we both would like because of his medications, NOW. And NOW, I orgasm every. single. time. we have sex. I have no need to fake it with him because WE are honest with EACH OTHER! He doesn't WANT me to fake anything. He WANTS me to tell him the truth! Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that not every man likes to be LIED to, like your husband does??? Seriously, Aribabe, I can't believe you said that. It was uncalled for. Sorry you can't seem to understand that SOME marriages are based on complete honestly. SOME marriages actually have complete and open honestly. And SOME women don't need to pander to the egos of such "fragile men-children".


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I also don't orgasm 100% of the time
> My husband knows it most of the time
> But when we're having a quickie,
> My "orgasm" pushes him over the edge like nothing else


If I discovered my wife was faking her orgasms sometimes. I think it would really throw me. It would have me always wondering whether she was faking it during sex.

I don't think that would be a great headspace to occupy.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Except for you girls who still fit into your skinny jeans, the truth is NEVER the correct answer to the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?"


I disagree. I would want to know if I looked fat in what I was wearing. 1. So that I wouldn't go out of the home looking fat, but thinking I look fine, and 2. so I could go work that fat butt off in the gym. 

The same way that men need to be told if they're bad in bed, women need to be told when they've gained too much weight.

Edit to add: if they're asking if the pants make their butt look fat, it's likely cause they already know that it does, and they don't want to face the reality.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Oh do NOT even go there girl! I have said that I didn't orgasm every time IN THE PAST. We don't have sex as often as we both would like because of his medications, NOW. And NOW, I orgasm every. single. time. we have sex. I have no need to fake it with him because WE are honest with EACH OTHER! He doesn't WANT me to fake anything. He WANTS me to tell him the truth! Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that not every man likes to be LIED to, like your husband does??? Seriously, Aribabe, I can't believe you said that. It was uncalled for. Sorry you can't seem to understand that SOME marriages are based on complete honestly. SOME marriages actually have complete and open honestly. And SOME women don't need to pander to the egos of such "fragile men-children".


If my wife lied to me in the past, she wouldn't be having multiple orgasms now. A lil direction can go a Loooooong ways! Good on her and no I didn't cry when she said lower or higher. lol


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

"Do these jeans make me look fat?"

"No, your fat makes you look fat."

Whoa. Tough call there.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Ok I was gone, but decided to read a little more before I put on my apron and then I read your response.
> 
> Maricha, you seem really upset.
> And I'm genuinely sorry for saying that to you.
> ...


This is the best post you have made in this thread. I commend you.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Except for you girls who still fit into your skinny jeans, the truth is NEVER the correct answer to the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?"


Uhhh no. I know it's not the jeans that make my butt look big. It was the cake and ice cream I ate at my nephew's birthday party. :rofl::rofl:

And if a woman is gonna sh!t test her husband/boyfriend/SO like that... walk away... just... walk away....


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I have to say this.

I am of very limited sexual experience, and it's hard to grade myself, but I know enough to be pretty sure I am average in bed. Probably below average as I get older and the body can't do what it used to at twenty.

I have enough sexual experience to know there are women out there with better technique than my wife.

And you know what?

NOTHING works like sharing intimacy and pleasure with the person you love. Nothing. You can offer me a bevy of female sexual athletes ready to show me every trick in the book, and I will take an intimate evening cuddled up and sharing physically and emotionally with my wife. 

The more both of us have relaxed into that mindset, the better sex has become.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhh no. I know it's not the jeans that make my butt look big. It was the cake and ice cream I ate at my nephew's birthday party. :rofl::rofl:
> 
> And if a woman is gonna sh!t test her husband/boyfriend/SO like that... walk away... just... walk away....


Oh hell no, the best way to deal with a test like that is to invite her to take the jeans off so you can make an informed comparison.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhh no. I know it's not the jeans that make my butt look big. It was the cake and ice cream I ate at my nephew's birthday party. :rofl::rofl:
> 
> And if a woman is gonna sh!t test her husband/boyfriend/SO like that... walk away... just... walk away....


Right. :iagree:

Women don't need to be coddled, either. We're coddled too much as it is.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Ok,
We'll have to agree to disagree that that was the BEST post I've made lol
But thanks 



Thoreau said:


> This is the best post you have made in this thread. I commend you.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I disagree. I would want to know if I looked fat in what I was wearing. 1. So that I wouldn't go out of the home looking fat, but thinking I look fine, and 2. so I could go work that fat butt off in the gym.
> 
> The same way that men need to be told if they're bad in bed, women need to be told when they've gained too much weight.
> 
> Edit to add: if they're asking if the pants make their butt look fat, it's likely cause they already know that it does, and they don't want to face the reality.


Ehhh... I'm more apt to ask "Hey, are these tight to the point that you can see every fat roll? Or do they 'hide' it somewhat?" LOL But that's just me. I know I'm "plus sized"... I just don't like every single inch being seen due to clothes stretched too tightly over it.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Ok,
> We'll have to agree to disagree that that was the BEST post I've made lol
> But thanks
> 
> ...


No, no... I have to agree with Thoreau... and I accept your apology.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Ehhh... I'm more apt to ask "Hey, are these tight to the point that you can see every fat roll? Or do they 'hide' it somewhat?" LOL But that's just me. I know I'm "plus sized"... I just don't like every single inch being seen due to clothes stretched too tightly over it.


Those questions aren't loaded questions, though. The man doesn't have to choose between lying and getting his face clawed off. Not that you would react that way, of course. lol.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

aribabe said:


> Ok,
> We'll have to agree to disagree that that was the BEST post I've made lol
> But thanks
> 
> ...


I agree with Thoreu too.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I agree with both of you.
> 
> Some men really do have their heads up their asses but it's still up to the woman to tell him.
> 
> *Besides, if he behaves like a little *****, do you really want to be married to him anyway*?


Exactly. Now repeat this to you 1000x and then start telling him about you and sex and how you feel. Then, if he acts like a little *****, ask yourself "Do I really want to be married to him anyways?"



LittleBird said:


> This is a good question.
> 
> Please me? In 20 years, I don't think I've ever really given that part much thought. I suppose because my mother raised me to give the man what he wants, all the time, or else.
> 
> ...


It is.

Why do you give the man what he wants? So he won't leave? So he won't be angry? Do all men leave and get angry when they don't get what they want when they want it? Contrary to what some posters in here are saying, no, men do have the ability to not frwak out over a lack of sex.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Exactly. Now repeat this to you 1000x and then start telling him about you and sex and how you feel. Then, if he acts like a little *****, ask yourself "Do I really want to be married to him anyways?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Historically, this is what happens when I say no (or my mother, as it may be, would say no): 

Mom says no to dad. Dad 'leaves' her and buys his mistress a condo across the street. Dad and Mom keep living in the same house to "maintain" an image and ask me to pass messages across a dinner table.

Mom stabs dad with a steak wife she finally snaps at years of being treated like ****. (Okay, so she didn't stab him- she missed)

And though I'm reluctant to refer to my abuser as a "man", IMO a no to to him was a guaranteed trip the emergency room.

I guess I got the idea that if you say no to someone, you don't love them. But now I understand that lying to someone is actually worse.

I couldn't understand why everyone was on me so hard, I was really hurt because I was genuinely trying to do what I thought I had to for him to be happy. 

I thought if I always said yes, regardless of how I felt, it showed him that I loved him more than myself.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Historically, this is what happens when I say no (or my mother, as it may be, would say no):
> 
> Mom says no to dad. Dad 'leaves' her and buys his mistress a condo across the street. Dad and Mom keep living in the same house to "maintain" an image and ask me to pass messages across a dinner table.
> 
> ...


I think people were a bit hard because they could see they way you were going is train wreck waiting to happen, for you and for him. You need to love put yourself first sometimes and be a bit selfish (everyone does) because your worth coming first sometimes.
It not uncommon for someone to lose themselves at the cost of keeping their partner I think people just don't want to see that happen to you.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Historically, this is what happens when I say no (or my mother, as it may be, would say no):
> 
> Mom says no to dad. Dad 'leaves' her and buys his mistress a condo across the street. Dad and Mom keep living in the same house to "maintain" an image and ask me to pass messages across a dinner table.
> 
> ...


There is a method to our madness. Sometimes harshness is what is needed for you stubborn youngsters!!! 

You are STARTING to get it. Bravo.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Historically, this is what happens when I say no (or my mother, as it may be, would say no):
> 
> Mom says no to dad. Dad 'leaves' her and buys his mistress a condo across the street. Dad and Mom keep living in the same house to "maintain" an image and ask me to pass messages across a dinner table.
> 
> ...


LB, let me ask you something. You said your fiance has never heard "no", right? And as I put in bold above, you think/thought saying "no" to someone means you don't love them, right? Ok, after you have kids, suppose you visit a house that is not "childproofed"... my house, for instance lol. JK, jk, i know you won't be visiting, because we don't know each other  But my house isn't childproof. So, suppose you come over. And your child gets into something he shouldn't. Do you tell him "no"? Or do you let him do whatever makes him happy?

No, I'm not calling your fiance a child. You have said he is immature, and that's not necessarily wrong...he may very well be immature. But my point is that there are times when you DO need to tell someone "no". You can't just let them do whatever makes them happy, without a care for anyone else, or just to make himself happy. "No" doesn't mean you don't love someone.... just as "yes" doesn't mean you DO... you, yourself, said that you told your abuser "yes" to avoid a trip to the ER... I suspect you didn't love your abuser....


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I disagree. I would want to know if I looked fat in what I was wearing. 1. So that I wouldn't go out of the home looking fat, but thinking I look fine, and 2. so I could go work that fat butt off in the gym.
> 
> The same way that men need to be told if they're bad in bed, women need to be told when they've gained too much weight.
> 
> Edit to add: if they're asking if the pants make their butt look fat, it's likely cause they already know that it does, and they don't want to face the reality.


If my wife asked me if I thought she was beautiful, and she was doing the best with everything she had, yet in my heart I didn't believe it, nothing would be served by telling the truth.

There are white lies we tell in a marriage that are OK - especially when the truth can't be changed and someone's feelings can reasonably be spared in the telling.

If you haven't learned this lesson yet in your marriage, you will eventually.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> LB, let me ask you something. You said your fiance has never heard "no", right? And as I put in bold above, you think/thought saying "no" to someone means you don't love them, right? Ok, after you have kids, suppose you visit a house that is not "childproofed"... my house, for instance lol. JK, jk, i know you won't be visiting, because we don't know each other  But my house isn't childproof. So, suppose you come over. And your child gets into something he shouldn't. Do you tell him "no"? Or do you let him do whatever makes him happy?
> 
> No, I'm not calling your fiance a child. You have said he is immature, and that's not necessarily wrong...he may very well be immature. But my point is that there are times when you DO need to tell someone "no". You can't just let them do whatever makes them happy, without a care for anyone else, or just to make himself happy. "No" doesn't mean you don't love someone.... just as "yes" doesn't mean you DO... you, yourself, said that you told your abuser "yes" to avoid a trip to the ER... I suspect you didn't love your abuser....


You are SO right.

I let my dogs run crazy. I feed them whenever they beg. I let them sleep on my pillow even though they smell like cheese half the time. I hand rhinestoned their collars. I'm a spoiler- I SPOIL things to the point of being bloody rotten. 

I let my cat sharpen her nails on my favorite 400 dollar leather boots (I gave them to her because she liked them and just bought another pair)

Ironically, I can say no to children. Because I know that children will hurt themselves without me and IMO, that's bad. 

I'm actually quite strict with kids- loving but strict. I've given a few spankings to my idiot neighbor's kids...she lets them run into the ****ing street while she types on her PDA...I swear, there should be a TEST you have to pass before you are allowed to procreate....

I hesitate to tell my fiancé no because he isn't used to it, no one has ever done it before. He's rich, good looking and smart...he's not used to rejection. 

I'm a bit worried he'll take my "no" as a "I don't think the sun rises and sets on you all the ****ing time, I have needs too"

Oh wait....


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If my wife asked me if I thought she was beautiful, and she was doing the best with everything she had, yet in my heart I didn't believe it, nothing would be served by telling the truth.
> 
> *There are white lies we tell in a marriage that are OK - especially when the truth can't be changed and someone's feelings can reasonably be spared in the telling.
> 
> If you haven't learned this lesson yet in your marriage, you will eventually.*


And... at what point in marriage do you "learn this lesson"? Because after being with my husband 13+ years already, I have yet to learn where lying to him in any way is a good thing.... ever. I have only learned that lying, deceit (in any form) is detrimental to my marriage. Maybe it works for yours.... but even "white lies" won't work for us. For us, lying is lying. It doesn't matter if it is big or small. And if we want our kids to tell the truth, how can we expect it if we are telling each other "little" lies?


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You are SO right.
> 
> I let my dogs run crazy. I feed them whenever they beg. I let them sleep on my pillow even though they smell like cheese half the time. I hand rhinestoned their collars. I'm a spoiler- I SPOIL things to the point of being bloody rotten.
> 
> ...


LOL LB, I like you. 

And, yea, I kinda got the idea that your fiance was a wealthy kid. And I think someone who has always gotten "yes" needs to learn that "no" is ok, too. 

Regarding the test to procreate... girl, don't get me started! I know people IRL who I believe should have been required to pass a test! Some are my own relatives, I am ashamed to say!


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> And... at what point in marriage do you "learn this lesson"? Because after being with my husband 13+ years already, I have yet to learn where lying to him in any way is a good thing.... ever. I have only learned that lying, deceit (in any form) is detrimental to my marriage. Maybe it works for yours.... but even "white lies" won't work for us. For us, lying is lying. It doesn't matter if it is big or small. And if we want our kids to tell the truth, how can we expect it if we are telling each other "little" lies?


I'd like to hear how you would answer the question in my original post honestly in a way that serves any higher purpose than some arbitrary "truth at all costs" imperative.

Realize that you're talking to someone who has been convicted on more than one occasion for brutal honesty.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, most women are terrible with computers.


No, no, no. You have to phrase it correctly:

Yeah, many (most?) women are terrible with computers.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> No, no, no. You have to phrase it correctly:
> 
> Yeah, many (most?) women are terrible with computers.


Thanks. Many (most?) men are terrible with directions.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> No, no, no. You have to phrase it correctly:
> 
> Yeah, many (most?) women are terrible with computers.


:lol:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> LOL LB, I like you.
> 
> And, yea, I kinda got the idea that your fiance was a wealthy kid. And I think someone who has always gotten "yes" needs to learn that "no" is ok, too.
> 
> Regarding the test to procreate... girl, don't get me started! I know people IRL who I believe should have been required to pass a test! Some are my own relatives, I am ashamed to say!


My parents would have FAILED that test miserably. 

Mr. Little Bird's Father, how often do you think it is appropriate to see you daughter?

Him: Whenever I'm not working, golfing, drinking, driving my sports car or ****ing my mistress.

Same question to the mother:

Her: See her? Oh don't be ridiculous, that's what the Mexican is for. 

My Nanny: I'm Puerto Rican.

Her: Whatever.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

anony2 said:


> That doesn't make any sense, let me give you an example: My love language is acts of service. One of those acts of service is taking out the garbage. My husband doesn't need the garbage taken out as much as I do, so he is LD...so if he doesn't take out the garbage does this mean that he is getting his needs met?
> 
> LOL I'll tell him that tonight and see what he says.


It is actually a very simple concept to understand.

To make it easier we can use apples. You have 10 apples to be divided equally between you and your partner, 5 each.
You are smaller and have a Lower Drive for food so your 5 apples fills you up.
He is much bigger and has a Higher Drive for food and needs 8 apples to fill him up.

You are always full by the very virtue of the fact that your Drive for food is less, he is always hungry because his Drive is higher.

So the LD person gets their needs met because they have lower needs, the HD person is not getting their needs met because they aren't getting sex as much as they need/want.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> It is actually a very simple concept to understand.
> 
> To make it easier we can use apples. You have 10 apples to be divided equally between you and your partner, 5 each.
> You are smaller and have a Lower Drive for food so your 5 apples fills you up.
> ...


This is probable but not always true.

If the HD person is constantly unhappy because they only get 5 out of 8 apples, that hardly makes for a comfortable environment.

Sounds to me like nobody is happy in that situation.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Thanks. Many (most?) men are terrible with directions.


Many (most?) men are good with directions but what many (most?) men are not good at is ASKING for those directions. 

"no honey let's drive around lost for another half hour and then I will pull into the servo to ask for directions". 

And I know this because I dated one man many years ago who would not ask for directions even when we were lost. this means that I am qualified to say that many (most?) men are crap at direction asking.

He was a good root though.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This is probable but not always true.
> 
> If the HD person is constantly unhappy because they only get 5 out of 8 apples, that hardly makes for a comfortable environment.
> 
> *Sounds to me like nobody is happy in that situation*.


Which was my point exactly.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Holland said:


> Many (most?) men are good with directions but what many (most?) men are not good at is ASKING for those directions.
> 
> "no honey let's drive around lost for another half hour and then I will pull into the servo to ask for directions".
> 
> ...


Absolutely NOT true.... they'll listen to sat nav


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This is probable but not always true.
> 
> If the HD person is constantly unhappy because they only get 5 out of 8 apples, that hardly makes for a comfortable environment.
> 
> Sounds to me like nobody is happy in that situation.


Boy did you ever hit that nail on the head! It's not a deal breaker though, if two people really love each other and are willing to compromise.

Being hungry can be a good thing. It makes the apples you get more sweet.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Sexual tastes should be based on common sense
> And if you don't have the common sense not to bite your wife's clitors, or bite your husband's testicles, or "accidentally" slip your penis into your wife's anus, or begine "fisting" her.
> Then you have the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY to learn that it is bad to do those things.
> You don't bite your wife's clitoris and then blame her for NOT telling you NOT to do that prior.
> ...


Are you taking the piss? No really are you?

In my world a wonderful way to encourage him is to tell him, show him or put his hands right on it.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Except for you girls who still fit into your skinny jeans, the truth is NEVER the correct answer to the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?"


You mean this question?

My answer would be, and has been "no, the pants don't make your butt look fat. It's the fat that makes your butt look fat." But guess what? Those sh!t tests don't work with me. Someone I've known since I was a kid told my cousin, who is almost 500 pounds, that she wasn't fat... Ummm... bullsh!t! And I said that too! I said "Yes, she most certainly is fat! So am I! She does have a beautiful smile and a big heart... but you can't tell her that she is not fat when she is." So, I'm brutally honest sometimes as well. I would answer the question honestly... "nope! it's the fat that makes it look fat"


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Boy did you ever hit that nail on the head! It's not a deal breaker though, if two people really love each other and are willing to compromise.
> 
> Being hungry can be a good thing. It makes the apples you get more sweet.


I'd probably enjoy sex more if it wasn't so frequent, I'm weird like that.

I love Thai food. I don't eat it every day, that would ruin it. Every 3 days and I'm tripping over myself to get to it.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> You mean this question?
> 
> My answer would be, and has been "no, the pants don't make your butt look fat. It's the fat that makes your butt look fat." But guess what? Those sh!t tests don't work with me. Someone I've known since I was a kid told my cousin, who is almost 500 pounds, that she wasn't fat... Ummm... bullsh!t! And I said that too! I said "Yes, she most certainly is fat! So am I! She does have a beautiful smile and a big heart... but you can't tell her that she is not fat when she is." So, I'm brutally honest sometimes as well. I would answer the question honestly... "nope! it's the fat that makes it look fat"


No, the one where you are required by who-knows-what to answer the question whether you think your spouse is attractive to his face. Assuming he grooms well and does the best with what he has, but what he has is just not that much, no one on earth is harmed by a simple "yes". No one.

Sure, you can go down the "but I love you for so much more than that...." explanation, which is all well and true and good. But it serves no greater purpose. The beaming smile on your spouse's face when you answer "yes" is reward enough for a small untruth that cannot be changed and cannot harm anyone in the telling.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No, the one where you are required by who-knows-what to answer the question whether you think your spouse is attractive to his face. Assuming he grooms well and does the best with what he has, but what he has is just not that much, no one on earth is harmed by a simple "yes". No one.
> 
> Sure, you can go down the "but I love you for so much more than that...." explanation, which is all well and true and good. But it serves no greater purpose. The beaming smile on your spouse's face when you answer "yes" is reward enough for a small untruth that cannot be changed and cannot harm anyone in the telling.


I told my fiancé he looks ****ing ridiculous in those absurd blue suede pants he bought from Paris.

He pouted for a week.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> No, the one where you are required by who-knows-what to answer the question whether you think your spouse is attractive to his face. Assuming he grooms well and does the best with what he has, but what he has is just not that much, no one on earth is harmed by a simple "yes". No one.
> 
> Sure, you can go down the "but I love you for so much more than that...." explanation, which is all well and true and good. But it serves no greater purpose. The beaming smile on your spouse's face when you answer "yes" is reward enough for a small untruth that cannot be changed and cannot harm anyone in the telling.


If I didn't find him attractive, I wouldn't have married him. If he asks me if I think he's attractive, I don't lie to him when I tell him "Yes, I do." It's the truth. If I think he looks ridiculous with his hair grown out long, I tell him. If I think he looks ridiculous with no facial hair, I tell him. Again, I don't lie to him. If he looks particularly good it looks good on him. If something DOESN'T work with his coloring or whatever else may be clashing, I tell him that as well. When he started gaining weight, I expressed my concern.But as for the part about finding him attractive? It's a non-issue because I DO find him attractive... whether 230 pounds or 295 pounds. I don't lie to him.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Except for you girls who still fit into your skinny jeans, the truth is NEVER the correct answer to the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?"


Here is a little tip for the ladies looking for some action.....

"hey babe, does my butt look big in these?"
while bending over in front of him wearing your skinny jeans.

Guaranteed to get results. The answer is irrelevant.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> If my wife asked me if I thought she was beautiful, and she was doing the best with everything she had, yet in my heart I didn't believe it, nothing would be served by telling the truth.
> 
> There are white lies we tell in a marriage that are OK - especially when the truth can't be changed and someone's feelings can reasonably be spared in the telling.
> 
> If you haven't learned this lesson yet in your marriage, you will eventually.


I hope I don't. I don't believe in little white lies and never have. I'd rather have the truth, however horrible it may be to hear.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Holland said:


> Here is a little tip for the ladies looking for some action.....
> 
> "hey babe, does my butt look big in these?"
> while bending over in front of him wearing your skinny jeans.
> ...


That would get me going!


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

And I'm with Maricha. I would not have married someone I didn't find attractive.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> And I'm with Maricha. I would not have married someone I didn't find attractive.


Is it possible to be attracted to someone and still not enjoy the sex?

I will be honest, I see my fiancé and I think "it'd be nice to have sex with him." 

But then he actually starts and I'm like "****kkkkkkkkkkk I have a load of laundry I need to do when this is over."

Fail. 

I've never had "good" sex so I always just assumed my vagina was broken...


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Is it possible to be attracted to someone and still not enjoy the sex?
> 
> I will be honest, I see my fiancé and I think "it'd be nice to have sex with him."
> 
> ...


I'd say it's possible, yes. And the lack of good sex is crucial to whether or not you will ever enjoy sex. I definitely recommend the two of you stop focusing on just him, and focus on you too.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I'd say it's possible, yes. And the lack of good sex is crucial to whether or not you will ever enjoy sex. I definitely recommend the two of you stop focusing on just him, and focus on you too.


Totally agree, if you don't start focusing on your likes/dislikes what puts you off sex ect then nothing will change. Sometimes physical attraction isn't enough mental attraction needs to be there too


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> Totally agree, if you don't start focusing on your likes/dislikes what puts you off sex ect then nothing will change. Sometimes physical attraction isn't enough mental attraction needs to be there too


Honestly, trying out the karma sutra until we find something I enjoy sounds like a huge ordeal...that I'm sure he'll be thrilled about of course


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Honestly, trying out the karma sutra until we find something I enjoy sounds like a huge ordeal...that I'm sure he'll be thrilled about of course


Karma sutra, tantric seriously don't write of your pleasure from sex until you have tried it all.
Actually tantric may be something you might want to consider looking up, it's very much connected to emotional pleasure and connection.


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

All I can say is if marriage was about a man giving his wife "credit" for having pitty sex with him occasionally, none of us would get married...ever. We would stay single and play the field. There is no incentive to settle down with the woman of your dreams if she doesn't desire you physically.

What you're describing has existed since the beginning of man. It's called being friends. And I don't marry my friends.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

sinnister said:


> All I can say is if marriage was about a man giving his wife "credit" for having pitty sex with him occasionally, none of us would get married...ever. We would stay single and play the field. There is no incentive to settle down with the woman of your dreams if she doesn't desire you physically.
> 
> What you're describing has existed since the beginning of man. It's called being friends. And I don't marry my friends.


To be fair, it is a recent thing that women are expected to be as involved in sex as men are.

Up until around the 60's, nobody expected a woman to do anything but lay there.

Marriage has been around a lot longer than sexual liberation has been.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

LB.....puhlease. Wild women have been around forever. Feminism has its drawbacks, no?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Aribabe do you realise that you are being very contradictory here. You say that many (most?) men are bad lovers yet you also say you fake it for your DH. 

I do wonder if a lot of what you write here is actually projecting or mirroring your own issues. You have said your DH is great in bed yet you also say you need to fake it with him.
You speak condecendingly to the women that have said they are honest with their husbands and do not fake and you come across as very anti men.
I am not trying to have a go but it is starting to sound like there are some issues in your own sexlife which is why you are very accusatory and also defensive.

As for the faking it during a quickie thing. well I don't O during a quickie but I know he likes them. I will even initiate a quickie because for me the enjoyment is feeling him and hearing him when he cums. There is no need to fake it, I simply tell him in a sexy voice that I want to feel him cum inside me, hearing that brings him to O in a very short time. That is the truth, I do want to feel that, no lies or deceit needed.

It is very possible that you are going to slowly erode your relationship with the lies and faking.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Aribabe seems to be an entitlement kind of woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> To be fair, it is a recent thing that women are expected to be as involved in sex as men are.
> 
> Up until around the 60's, nobody expected a woman to do anything but lay there.
> 
> Marriage has been around a lot longer than sexual liberation has been.


Very true, but it wasn't that long ago female orgasms were considered 'female hysteria' and was considered a disease, it was the reason vibrators were invented.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Aribabe seems to be an entitlement kind of woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I disagree with some of the things she has said but I disagree with this also.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> Very true, but it wasn't that long ago female orgasms were considered 'female hysteria' and was considered a disease, it was the reason vibrators were invented.


If using a vibrator is a symptom of a disease, I am seriously SICK cause I have 3 of them


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

You are sick but it has nothing to do with vibrators. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> You are sick but it has nothing to do with vibrators. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A truly sick person doesn't even recognize they're sick


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

She's not sick lol


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

She is. Self admitted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> She is. Self admitted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sick is the wrong word to describe me.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Gone through a lot yes, still healing from those events yes, sick no.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

aribabe said:


> Maricha, you seem really upset.
> And I'm genuinely sorry for saying that to you.
> It was mean.
> I have personal issues that would really hurt if they were "called out" as well.
> ...


:smthumbup:

It is a good and brave thing to be able to recognize a mistake and apologize. I sincerely applaud you for doing this, Mrs. Ari.

And yes, the anonimity of the Internet often brought out the worst of us.. 

I wish you good luck, and I hope I could be as brave as you are now, if I hurt someone's feelings, intentionally or unintentionally, in this forum.

Now, if this kind of respect and consideration can be extended to *all members* of this forum, then you will be setting a great example of being a good forum-member, great example for others to follow. In fact, these are written plainly in forum rules.



> Forum Rules:
> 
> 1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.
> (snip)
> ...


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> To be fair, it is a recent thing that women are expected to be as involved in sex as men are.
> 
> Up until around the 60's, nobody expected a woman to do anything but lay there.


Not much on history nor intercultural comparisons, are we?

The "new youth" of the 1920's and 1930's weren't even that bad insofar as making up stupid canards about the past when liberating themselves sexually. 

This is so far off base for so many reasons, like the historical importance of horrific and deadly STD's such as syphilis being important to sexual attitudes. That one killed people within three months of contraction when it first arrived in Europe. The body was covered from head to knee with postules, and flesh falling of the face of those dying in agony. Since you have never seen that personally it didn't happen historically I guess. 

I suppose too in circles of politically correct urban ignorati of 21st century USA everything is all about being framed as supressing women. Or at least in the subculture you inhabit.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Not much on history nor intercultural comparisons, are we?
> 
> The "new youth" of the 1920's and 1930's weren't even that bad insofar as making up stupid canards about the past when liberating themselves sexually.
> 
> ...


Oh for the love of God, are you so bitter that you have nothing better to do than constantly contradict a 20 year old girl with your condescending, overly convoluted, and often times misguided, ridiculous crap?

Since it's clear you think you're so ****ing smart, I never said SEX hasn't been around. 

I said the SOCIETAL NORM of women's sexual liberation hasn't been around. Are you really going to tell me it was always commonly accepted and talked about for women to enjoy sex like men? Really? 

What do STDs always having existed have to do with that?

It doesn't, you're just a smug bastard who always feels the need to make a point.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Slow your roll lb. No need to attack. What time is it on the west coast anyway?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Slow your roll lb. No need to attack. What time is it on the west coast anyway?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is CONSTANTLY responding to my posts with irrelevant, smug, arrogant crap.

But he's not actually worth anymore of my time, so I'm done.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

So what time is it there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> So what time is it there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I live in Cambridge, mate, my law school is here.

It's 12:30, the fiancé is out with some friends.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

curious2 said:


> the biggest mistake you can make when choosing a partner is banking on "potential". made the same mistake myself.


:iagree:
Focus on what he is now not what he could be in the future, there is no guarantee the potential you see will become a reality.


----------



## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I've never had "good" sex so I always just assumed my vagina was broken...


*Aw damn, that sucks, this might be part of the problem*


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lordhavok said:


> *Aw damn, that sucks, this might be part of the problem*


Today I'm going to the bookstore to buy some research books.

If this can be fixed, I want to fix it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Oh for the love of God, are you so bitter that you have nothing better to do than constantly contradict a 20 year old girl with your condescending, overly convoluted, and often times misguided, ridiculous crap?
> 
> Since it's clear you think you're so ****ing smart, I never said SEX hasn't been around.
> 
> ...


LB, please don't take this the wrong way, but knock it off. There are a lot of men and women here who have gone through hell and back, and then through hell again, in their relationships. People are not always going to be nice to you, online or in the real world, and you really need to learn how to handle that. You are so defensive that you come back and attack, attack, attack, and it is highly immature. 

Perhaps you should take a day or two and not come here? I know you're trying, and I know you don't like the sarcastic comments some posters have given to others(perhaps even me included), but that is no excuse to respond in the way you did. Why didn't you take the advice I gave and ignore the poster? You don't have to pick a fight with everyone just because they disagree with you and come off as bitter. And really, do you think your reaction is going to help them in any way?

Seriously. You need to learn to control your reactions.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> He is CONSTANTLY responding to my posts with irrelevant, smug, arrogant crap.
> 
> But he's not actually worth anymore of my time, so I'm done.


Like I said, _ignore him_ if he upsets you that much. Or put him on your block list so you can't see his posts. But this whiny, bit*chy, unload all of you fury onto him is really not okay. You're a smart girl. That is clear. You articulate your feelings and thoughts well. Don't ruin your intelligence by acting immature.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, please don't take this the wrong way, but knock it off. There are a lot of men and women here who have gone through hell and back, and then through hell again, in their relationships. People are not always going to be nice to you, online or in the real world, and you really need to learn how to handle that. You are so defensive that you come back and attack, attack, attack, and it is highly immature.
> 
> Perhaps you should take a day or two and not come here? I know you're trying, and I know you don't like the sarcastic comments some posters have given to others(perhaps even me included), but that is no excuse to respond in the way you did. Why didn't you take the advice I gave and ignore the poster? You don't have to pick a fight with everyone just because they disagree with you and come off as bitter. And really, do you think your reaction is going to help them in any way?
> 
> Seriously. You need to learn to control your reactions.


Sorry Created, I like you but I'm not apologizing for this one.

He didn't even read what I wrote correctly, he just wanted to- once again- say something rude and smug. 

This is not the first time- I let it go the first several times, by the way. 

And I happen to be right. I made a statement that had nothing to do with him and that wasn't even remotely inflammatory.

I made a statement of commonly accepted historical fact and he still felt the need to be condescending and contrary. Read what I wrote- it had nothing to do with anything personal. Nothing.

I will not apologize for that one.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Like I said, _ignore him_ if he upsets you that much. Or put him on your block list so you can't see his posts. But this whiny, bit*chy, unload all of you fury onto him is really not okay. You're a smart girl. That is clear. You articulate your feelings and thoughts well. Don't ruin your intelligence by acting immature.


*sigh*

Okay mama bear.

Point taken.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Sorry Created, I like you but I'm not apologizing for this one.
> 
> He didn't even read what I wrote correctly, he just wanted to- once again- say something rude and smug.
> 
> ...


I disagree. There is never a justifiable reason to be mean. I really worry about this. I have the kind of personality that when something is wrong, I freaking say so. I don't put up with bull. However, while what I'm saying may be correct, _how_ I say it can _always_ be wrong. 

WHAT you said may have been correct, but how you reacted was NOT right. 



> I made a statement that had nothing to do with him and that wasn't even remotely inflammatory.
> 
> I made a statement of commonly accepted historical fact and he still felt the need to be condescending and contrary. Read what I wrote- it had nothing to do with anything personal. Nothing.
> 
> I will not apologize for that one.


No, it wasn't personal. _*And he was just voicing his opinion*_. It was insulting what he said, yes. But guess what? That's life. People are going to insult you. Your future husband, whether your current fiance or not, will insult you at times. Make you angry. If you respond to him like you did to this poster, you can practically kiss your marriage goodbye. 

Just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are. It's the one thing I have had to learn time and time again in my marriage. Even if what I say is true, _how_ I say it may not be. 

You EASILY could have ignored the guy. There was no reason to respond to him at all. You don't have to defend yourself every single time you think someone is attacking or insulting you.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, please don't take this the wrong way, but knock it off. There are a lot of men and women here who have gone through hell and back, and then through hell again, in their relationships. People are not always going to be nice to you, online or in the real world, and you really need to learn how to handle that. You are so defensive that you come back and attack, attack, attack, and it is highly immature.
> 
> Perhaps you should take a day or two and not come here? I know you're trying, and I know you don't like the sarcastic comments some posters have given to others(perhaps even me included), but that is no excuse to respond in the way you did. Why didn't you take the advice I gave and ignore the poster? You don't have to pick a fight with everyone just because they disagree with you and come off as bitter. And really, do you think your reaction is going to help them in any way?
> 
> Seriously. You need to learn to control your reactions.



Good grief leave her alone already. Your constant scolding and know it all attitude is really getting annoying. She has every right to feel the way she does. I don't know why she is letting you talk to her like this but it wouldn't fly with me


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

saracole said:


> Good grief leave her alone already. Your constant scolding and know it all attitude is really getting annoying. She has every right to feel the way she does. I don't know why she is letting you talk to her like this but it wouldn't fly with me


When she wants me to shut up, _she_ will tell me. Not you. And, in case you hadn't noticed, the posters on this forum have been trying to _help_ her. She is a mature, intelligent, self-sacrificing young woman who's engaged to a young man who isn't treating her the best. Yet, she takes a lot of her frustration and defensiveness out on some of the posters here. Granted, some haven't been the greatest to her either. But she's twenty years old. She has to learn how to respond respectively to people who insult her personally, especially if she wants to be successful in the law. I've been merely trying to help point out that insults and personal attacks will come in all facets of life, even when they're not expected. She must learn to deal with them effectively, and lashing out to other posters won't help. 

Any time she wants me to stop offering my suggestions, she's more than capable of saying so and I will graciously stop responding to her. But _she_ is the only one who gets to say it. No one else does.


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> When she wants me to shut up, _she_ will tell me. Not you. And, in case you hadn't noticed, the posters on this forum have been trying to _help_ her. She is a mature, intelligent, self-sacrificing young woman who's engaged to a young man who isn't treating her the best. Yet, she takes a lot of her frustration and defensiveness out on some of the posters here. Granted, some haven't been the greatest to her either. But she's twenty years old. She has to learn how to respond respectively to people who insult her personally, especially if she wants to be successful in the law. I've been merely trying to help point out that insults and personal attacks will come in all facets of life, even when they're not expected. She must learn to deal with them effectively, and lashing out to other posters won't help.
> 
> Any time she wants me to stop offering my suggestions, she's more than capable of saying so and I will graciously stop responding to her. But _she_ is the only one who gets to say it. No one else does.


I m not talking about your suggestions I am speaking of you telling her to knock it off and other post where you are scolding her like you are her mother. So keep offering your advice but quit treating her like she is some twelve year old girl. It is uncalled for. Don't you think?


----------



## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> When she wants me to shut up, _she_ will tell me. Not you. And, in case you hadn't noticed, the posters on this forum have been trying to _help_ her. She is a mature, intelligent, self-sacrificing young woman who's engaged to a young man who isn't treating her the best. Yet, she takes a lot of her frustration and defensiveness out on some of the posters here. Granted, some haven't been the greatest to her either. *But she's twenty years old. *She has to learn how to respond respectively to people who insult her personally, especially if she wants to be successful in the law. I've been merely trying to help point out that insults and personal attacks will come in all facets of life, even when they're not expected. She must learn to deal with them effectively, and lashing out to other posters won't help.
> 
> Any time she wants me to stop offering my suggestions, she's more than capable of saying so and I will graciously stop responding to her. But _she_ is the only one who gets to say it. No one else does.


And how old are you?


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

She seems wise beyond her years.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ooooh! Cat fight.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Except for you girls who still fit into your skinny jeans, the truth is NEVER the correct answer to the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?"


My wife knows not to ask me if she doesn't want the honest answer.

If she looks bad in the jeans, and she asks, it's because she needs to know, and she's not trying to go out looking set up.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I live in Cambridge, mate, my law school is here.
> 
> It's 12:30, the fiancé is out with some friends.


I think I may understand everything now.

Too many hours in Langdell Hall?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> I think I may understand everything now.
> 
> Too many hours in Langdell Hall?


Oops, I just gave myself away didn't I...

Internet safety fail.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

saracole said:


> I m not talking about your suggestions I am speaking of you telling her to knock it off and other post where you are scolding her like you are her mother. So keep offering your advice but quit treating her like she is some twelve year old girl. It is uncalled for. Don't you think?


Pot. Kettle.


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Oops, I just gave myself away didn't I...
> 
> Internet safety fail.


Alice In Wonderland- Caterpillar (WHO ARE YOU ONLY) - YouTube


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

saracole said:


> I m not talking about your suggestions I am speaking of you telling her to knock it off and other post where you are scolding her like you are her mother. So keep offering your advice but quit treating her like she is some twelve year old girl. It is uncalled for. Don't you think?


If _she_ thinks I'm treating her like a twelve year old, _she_ can say so, and I will apologize. But it's not up to you to say that I was or not.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

saracole said:


> And how old are you?


Does it matter? The only reason you're even asking _me_ that questions is because you don't like what I said, or how I said it. Which is fine. And if I offended LB, she is more than welcome to say so, in which case I was apologize and clarify my intentions. I'm a big girl. 

Otherwise, it's not your concern.


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Oh for the love of God, are you so bitter that you have nothing better to do than constantly contradict a 20 year old girl with your condescending, overly convoluted, and often times misguided, ridiculous crap?
> 
> Since it's clear you think you're so ****ing smart, I never said SEX hasn't been around.
> 
> ...


Bitter? Nice try at getting me defensive but I've seen much better than you. Talk about projection - look at all the name-calling here by you and the figurative shouting. All one has do do is pull your mask off and look what bitterness lies beneath. 

Playing the victim too - aw, poor little 20 year old girl. But when we want to play grown-up then we're in law school at Cambridge and have all of this life experience beyond your years. I was in graduate school at your age and didn't present myself as a little boy to gain sympathy. We didn't shoot our mouths off without knowing the literature and took our lumps like adults when we were caught saying something absurd. 

You've spent most of your life trying to hone the wrong skills. I realize they work on some people, and would have worked on me before I learned to recognize them for what they are. 

I have an awesome wife about your age, but isn't near as selfish and immature, nor manipulative. I'm between contracts and as soon as the client signs I'll be less inclined to watch your self-serving machinations.

She was also gang-raped as a little girl, a real gang not figuratively speaking. She doesn't use that to play the victim, nor blame everyone else but herself for bad character of the most elementary kind.

I'm not buying the Little Bo Peep act, relentlessly ignoring the most fundamental character trait of all: honesty. That isn't bitterness. That's called not being a fool; not buying into what liars dressing themselves in white angel's wings have to say. 


One thing very obvious through this thread is the amazing correlation between lying and lack of fulfillment. 


This character fundamental is so basic to humanity that it appears in various forms from current proverbial expressions like "Honesty is the best policy" through biblical proverbs and centuries before into ancient Sumerian and Babylonian proverbs. We are talking about the entire span of human written history, and there is no doubt whatsoever it is a standard that precedes written history. 

We have deceit with your fiance. We have your deceit with his family about whether you are even a fiance. We have a lot more of it with all these manipulative tactics. 

And guess what - you're not happy now, and you're headed for a lot more bitterness in the future. If we can point to one core reason, it is for not choosing honesty.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Bitter? Nice try at getting me defensive but I've seen much better than you. Talk about projection - look at all the name-calling here by you and the figurative shouting. All one has do do is pull your mask off and look what bitterness lies beneath.
> 
> Playing the victim too - aw, poor little 20 year old girl. But when we want to play grown-up then we're in law school at Cambridge and have all of this life experience beyond your years. I was in graduate school at your age and didn't present myself as a little boy to gain sympathy. We didn't shoot our mouths off without knowing the literature and took our lumps like adults when we were caught saying something absurd.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Also, you aren't addressing the point. I made a statement of commonly accepted fact and you made a personal attack. That sir, is the true immaturity. 

That's all you're getting out of me. 

Enjoy your evening.

Good for you for marrying a 20 year old, also. Is her first name Anna?

Just kidding.

Have fun with that.

For the record, I am very, very happy. I have most of my life left to be happy. And your bitterness at your ex-wife has caused you to see phantom evil everywhere.

Maybe you should look in the mirror before you go attacking people you don't know.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> My wife knows not to ask me if she doesn't want the honest answer.
> 
> If she looks bad in the jeans, and she asks, it's because she needs to know, and she's not trying to go out looking set up.


Good lord, everyone. It's a stinkin' metaphor.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Just tell her she looks better OUT of the jeans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

If I settled for good enough I would have nothing. Settling ......gah


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

If you wanted steak tonight but settled for a hamburger you would still have a full belly, no?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Good lord, everyone. It's a stinkin' metaphor.


This happens too often in very literal sense to be written off as a "metaphor".

I see no point at all in lying to your spouse about their looks. You don't have to be cruel, but you don't have to lie. If she looks like sh*t in the jeans/dress/make up/haircut, whatever, and she asks, tell her what you really think.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This happens too often in very literal sense to be written off as a "metaphor".
> 
> I see no point at all in lying to your spouse about their looks. You don't have to be cruel, but you don't have to lie. If she looks like sh*t in the jeans/dress/make up/haircut, whatever, and she asks, tell her what you really think.


Totally agree with this and love it. Hell my man either shakes his head and makes a face or says things like... "I dont like the way that looks on you." 

With sex we are honest with eachother there as well. He will tell me if something turns him on, doesnt do anything for him, or could be better and I do the same with him. I value honesty and have told him this. It hurts me more to be lied to rather then have him be brutally honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I had nothing to lose for too long so am brutally honest. But it cuts both ways because I'm honest when she looks hot too. And don't get me started on my reaction to her grandma haircut.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

What the heck is a grandma haircut?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Gaia said:


> What the heck is a grandma haircut?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha I said don't get me started. 

It's when a too young woman with beautiful long hair gets it all chopped off so its more practical or some such nonsense. What can I say, I hate short hair on women.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Haha I said don't get me started.
> 
> It's when a too young woman with beautiful long hair gets it all chopped off so its more practical or some such nonsense. What can I say, I hate short hair on women.


I have back length curls that are a nightmare and my fiancé screamed like a ****ing banshee when I cut them off last year.

Listen to this man.

He knows of what he speaks.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks working for clearing that up lol. Littlebird... I love my long hair. Hell my eldest has had her own growing since the day she was born. We trim hers and mine every now and then but prefer it long. You can style long hair in sooo many ways. Btw.... I had went to one barber to get a trim once.... She screwed up my hair and ended up chopping most of it off. I was peeved but when my man saw that.... He went through the roof! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Good lord, everyone. It's a stinkin' metaphor.


Ok, lemme get this straight... 

You ask a question. I thought you meant another question and answered that one, but you requested that I answer the one you meant. Fine, no problem. Sooooo.... NOW it's a metaphor? Why? Because people aren't answering as you expected? That makes no sense. :scratchhead:


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Gaia said:


> With sex we are honest with eachother there as well.


Not until coming to TAM did I learn that, for some people, the idea of simply saying phrases like "a little to the left", "do the other one", "ouch, that hurt", and "wasn't really feeling that", were revolutionary concepts.



WorkingOnMe said:


> I had nothing to lose for too long so am brutally honest. But it cuts both ways because I'm honest when she looks hot too. And don't get me started on my reaction to her grandma haircut.


I'm lucky in that my wife has known me since we were 14/15 years old. So she knows I'm honest, and she knew that long before we were romantically entangled.

Also we almost always agree on these matters, so if she's critical of a hair cut, or how she looks in something, she usually says so, and doesn't need task. Sometimes I'm the one defending the look. And if she does actually ask me how she looks in something, she doesn't pull any kind of test to try and get get the right response. I know that when my wife asks, she wants to know.

And nine times out of ten, she'll know by my face, without me saying a word.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Same here jaquen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have back length curls that are a nightmare and my fiancé screamed like a ****ing banshee when I cut them off last year.
> 
> Listen to this man.
> 
> He knows of what he speaks.


I have long, wavy to curly hair. It is worth all the work it takes to keep it just so my SO has something to pull when we are getting busy. I love my long hair, it gets me plenty of attention and suits me.
At least you can grow it back if you want.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Holland said:


> I have long, wavy to curly hair. It is worth all the work it takes to keep it just so my SO has something to pull when we are getting busy. I love my long hair, it gets me plenty of attention and suits me.
> At least you can grow it back if you want.


I have long straight hair. I like having long hair, but I think once I get it a bit longer, I'm chopping it. Not really short, but I will make it shoulder length. I want to grow it so I can cut off 10" to donate, and still have hair long enough for my husband to pull if he wants.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I have long straight hair. I like having long hair, but I think once I get it a bit longer, I'm chopping it. Not really short, but I will make it shoulder length. I want to grow it so I can cut off 10" to donate, and still have hair long enough for my husband to pull if he wants.


You guys let your men pull your hair?

00 

This is a black thing but I'd ****ing chop his arm off if he tried to mess up my hair.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You guys let your men pull your hair?
> 
> 00
> 
> ...


If my hair is staying in place during sex... we're doing it wrong. 

The way I see it... he lets me grab onto his hair and pull...I have no problem with him doing that to me too. LOL


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lmao damn straight! Besides it is such a fricken turn on to have my hair pulled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> If my hair is staying in place during sex... we're doing it wrong.
> 
> The way I see it... he lets me grab onto his hair and pull...I have no problem with him doing that to me too. LOL


I think I'm having sex wrong.

:scratchhead:


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You guys let your men pull your hair?
> 
> 00
> 
> ...


I don't just let him, i encourage him. Is super hot IMO but yeah not for everyone.
He doesn't just randomly pull my hair although I would find that funny if we were out in public. We tend to do stupid things in public.

Anyway mostly I keep my hair for me, I love the way it looks. I can wear it curly or straight depending on how i feel or where I am going.

Maricha, what do you mean donate your hair?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> I don't just let him, i encourage him. Is super hot IMO but yeah not for everyone.
> He doesn't just randomly pull my hair although I would find that funny if we were out in public. We tend to do stupid things in public.
> 
> Anyway mostly I keep my hair for me, I love the way it looks. I can wear it curly or straight depending on how i feel or where I am going.
> ...


I have mixed hair, very thick. It takes a good 4 hours to flat iron it and I have to have it nice for work.

He is always messing around with it...though I admit...I do melt a little when he does.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Holland said:


> I don't just let him, i encourage him. Is super hot IMO but yeah not for everyone.
> He doesn't just randomly pull my hair although I would find that funny if we were out in public. We tend to do stupid things in public.
> 
> Anyway mostly I keep my hair for me, I love the way it looks. I can wear it curly or straight depending on how i feel or where I am going.
> ...


Locks of Love

There is at least one other organization I have heard of from friends around here, but Locks of Love is the big one I know of.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Do they make wigs or something with that hair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Do they make wigs or something with that hair?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, from everything I have read about them, the wigs are for kids who are going through chemo... but I think they make them for kids who have lost hair due to other medical problems as well.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ah ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird, you're just speaking a basic truth. A ton of Black women will never, ever let a man go near their hair.

It costs too much to style, or often takes too long to do in the first place, for them to be allowing a man to ruin all that in the throws of passion.

And that's not even counting the ones who have fake hair in the mix, and don't want a man pulling out her tracks, or snapping one of the braids off.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> LittleBird, you're just speaking a basic truth. A ton of Black women will never, ever let a man go near their hair.
> 
> It costs too much to style, or often takes too long to do in the first place, for them to be allowing a man to ruin all that in the throws of passion.
> 
> And that's not even counting the ones who have fake hair in the mix, and don't want a man pulling out her tracks, or snapping one of the braids off.


DO NOT TOUCH MY HAIR. 

I just spent 80 dollars on this **** to look good for you. Keep your hands on the boobs, those don't cost any money to look good. 

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

He's white. I had to explain this to him. :lol:


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol,
I'm black
My husband rubs his hands through my hair
Especially at night,
Makes me purrrrr like a kitten.

LittleBird,
Why are you spending $80 for a hairstyle?!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

aribabe said:


> Lol,
> I'm black
> My husband rubs his hands through my hair
> Especially at night,
> ...


I have hair down to nearly my bum (all mine) and it's mixed hair- curly, curly, curly.

I can't deal with this ****, I get it done every two days.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh I see
I'm about bra strap length
All mine as well lol

But I never go to the salon for styling
Only coloring

They are way too rough with my hair
So much easier to do it myself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Well you learn something everyday. Thanks Maricha I have looked at the site.

Never knew that dark skinned people had different/difficult hair. Yeah if I was spending big dollars and 4 hours doing it then I would be very guarded of if.

Mine is mid length, black and thick but I style it myself and don't colour it (yet).

Biggest problem I have is that I cycle about 4 days per week and here in Aussie the summers are very hot, I tend to get headaches due to the thick hair and heat. I try to cycle before 7am or go after 7pm to avoid the heat.
So I have to wash my hair at least 4 times a week and have to buy exy shampoo/conditioner/hair treatments. I eat really well which helps keep it in good condition.


----------



## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Lmao damn straight! Besides it is such a fricken turn on to have my hair pulled.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How about an ass smack to go with it


----------



## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Holland said:


> It is actually a very simple concept to understand.
> 
> To make it easier we can use apples. You have 10 apples to be divided equally between you and your partner, 5 each.
> You are smaller and have a Lower Drive for food so your 5 apples fills you up.
> ...


So by not taking out the garbage, his needs are getting met because he wants to take out the garbage 1 time per week and I want him to take it out 3 times a week?

Oh wait, that is the different, WANT verses NEED...

How many times does a person really NEED to have sex a week, does anyone know? Is there a scientific study on this?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

anony2 said:


> So by not taking out the garbage, his needs are getting met because he wants to take out the garbage 1 time per week and I want him to take it out 3 times a week?
> 
> Oh wait, that is the different, WANT verses NEED...
> 
> How many times does a person really NEED to have sex a week, does anyone know? Is there a scientific study on this?


This is what I wanna know! IMO sex is a considered a need to most people but there has got to be a quantity limit on the word need!

My fiancé would love to tell me he "needs" daily sex and frankly, I call bull****! :rofl:


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This is what I wanna know! IMO sex is a considered a need to most people but there has got to be a quantity limit on the word need!
> 
> My fiancé would love to tell me he "needs" daily sex and frankly, I call bull****! :rofl:



The whole 'Want' versus 'Need' debate comes up in regard to _sexless relationships_, especially ones where the withholding partner starts spouting platitudes like, "Sex is not that important" and "There are more things to life than sex" and "You won't die from lack of sex"

The situation is a lot different in a healthier relationship where the couple is actually having regular sex and the quibble (If there is one) is over frequency.

We all agree that food is a need, but how much food do you really need? That's a different question entirely.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> The whole 'Want' versus 'Need' debate comes up in regard to _sexless relationships_, especially ones where the withholding partner starts spouting platitudes like, "Sex is not that important" and "There are more things to life than sex" and "You won't die from lack of sex"


Yea, And...we are waiting for solid proof that the withholding spouse says something like this, preferably on record or at the presence of witness(es), because it is a strong enough reason for a divorce... :lol: (shark alert)


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Yea, And...we are waiting for solid proof that the withholding spouse says something like this, preferably on record or at the presence of witness(es), because it is a strong enough reason for a divorce... :lol: (shark alert)


I admit, as a soon to be lawyer, if someone brought that into my court I'd be a bit skeptical.

It just sounds like a bad reason in a court of law, not saying it is a bad reason but people are gonna look at you like...."really?"


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> The whole 'Want' versus 'Need' debate comes up in regard to _sexless relationships_, especially ones where the withholding partner starts spouting platitudes like, "Sex is not that important" and "There are more things to life than sex" and "You won't die from lack of sex"
> 
> The situation is a lot different in a healthier relationship where the couple is actually having regular sex and the quibble (If there is one) is over frequency.
> 
> We all agree that food is a need, but how much food do you really need? That's a different question entirely.


Exactly. One person may need sex daily while another may only need sex every other week. Assuming the one who only needs sex every other week has no problem with porn and his/her spouse masturbating (I know, masturbation is natural, but I think we can agree that some people DO have a problem with their spouses doing it), I really don't think it is fair that he or she expect the higher drive spouse to masturbate 13 days and have sex with the spouse one day. A better choice would be "every other week" person should be with a like-minded person and the "everyday" one be with one who also needs everyday. It just makes more sense. At the very least, even if not EXACT match, it should be very close... not so far apart.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> I admit, as a soon to be lawyer, if someone brought that into my court I'd be a bit skeptical.
> 
> It just sounds like a bad reason in a court of law, not saying it is a bad reason but people are gonna look at you like...."really?"


Well, not with solid evidence. Like witnesses, or, better yet, recording.

Usually, at the first hearings, if evidence like this is being brought out, the Hakam (Judge) will order marriage counselling.

(Which means marriage counsellors will get her/his payments.. life is goood  )

Then, if marriage counselling doesn't work, there will be second hearing, and the recording/witnessess could still be called back into court.

Either way, lawyers get paid. Life is good for lawyers. Not so good for the married couple. Kind of sad, really.

BUT, your country and mine may have different legal procedures. I am not in a Western country.

In my country, withholding sex is one of the reasons for divorce. It is written (and recited!) in/at the marriage contract/akad nikkah (for Muslims). Don't know how this applies to non-Muslims though. Like I said, different cultures, different countries, different laws.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Exactly. One person may need sex daily while another may only need sex every other week. Assuming the one who only needs sex every other week has no problem with porn and his/her spouse masturbating (I know, masturbation is natural, but I think we can agree that some people DO have a problem with their spouses doing it), I really don't think it is fair that he or she expect the higher drive spouse to masturbate 13 days and have sex with the spouse one day. A better choice would be "every other week" person should be with a like-minded person and the "everyday" one be with one who also needs everyday. It just makes more sense. At the very least, even if not EXACT match, it should be very close... not so far apart.



Honestly, I think the every day person should look in the mirror and and go "Do I really need sex everyday?"

It's really easy to want something, think that other people are getting it and decide that you NEED it.

If marital sex is equal parts pleasure and intimacy, then isn't it more important that you have sustainable "good" sex than pressure someone else into daily duty sex?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Well, not with solid evidence. Like witnesses, or, better yet, recording.
> 
> Usually, at the first hearings, if evidence like this is being brought out, the Hakam (Judge) will order marriage counselling.
> 
> ...


If some judge told me to put out or get out, I'd sue him so fast he wouldn't even have time to bang his gavel.

America...a country where people are allowed to be *******s.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> If marital sex is equal parts pleasure and intimacy, then isn't it more important that you have sustainable "good" sex than pressure someone else into daily duty sex?


This is correct I think. It is better to have wonderful sex 3 - 5 times a week rather than daily, but unfulfilling, sex.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> This is correct I think. It is better to have wonderful sex 3 - 5 times a week rather than daily, but unfulfilling, sex.


If there isn't any mutual desire, there is no intimacy, it's the same thing as just masturbating into a vagina or onto a penis.

If someone is interested in that, it really just proves that it's not about the intimacy at all.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> If some judge told me to put out or get out, I'd sue him so fast he wouldn't even have time to bang his gavel.
> 
> America...a country where people are allowed to be *******s.


can't read the ******* you wrote, but, hey, whatever floats your boat. :rofl:

Joking aside, It's always better to fix everything in your relationship between the two of you. Counsellors, lawyers and judges are not needed if you two could deal with each other with honesty and mutual respect. A healthy dose of honesty and respect will keep "us" away from you two


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> If there isn't any mutual desire, there is no intimacy, it's the same thing as just masturbating into a vagina or onto a penis.


Yep, right. That's why a large part of a healthy marriage is to build and maintain mutual desire and mutual respect. That is why love is needed, and love is BOTH a matter of heart and physique.

If sex is only about physical techniques and biology, I'd say one day those brilliant engineer-scientists in Japan will find a way to create a new way of procreation, by allowing men to masturbate into a hollow tree, and nine months later, they could pick up the fruit of the tree, open it up and there lies a healthy baby.. 

By the Beard of Benjamin, my jokes are getting more bizzarre everyday... :rofl:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> can't read the ******* you wrote, but, hey, whatever floats your boat. :rofl:
> 
> Joking aside, It's always better to fix everything in your relationship between the two of you. Counsellors, lawyers and judges are not needed if you two could deal with each other with honesty and mutual respect. A healthy dose of honesty and respect will keep "us" away from you two


If I could have sex every 2 or 3 days, it would give me a time to not be so bloody ****ing sore.



"But honey...I need you..."

My ass. :lol:


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Honestly, I think the every day person should look in the mirror and and go "Do I really need sex everyday?"
> 
> It's really easy to want something, think that other people are getting it and decide that you NEED it.
> 
> If marital sex is equal parts pleasure and intimacy, then isn't it more important that you have sustainable "good" sex than pressure someone else into daily duty sex?


Or perhaps both people should look at EACH OTHER and say:

Honey, I love you and making love with you is very important to me, so please help me to help us make it a more enjoyable experience for both of us. I understand you do not want to everyday, and that is okay, but let's work together on a compromise so both of our needs can be more closely met.


Honey, I love you and I realize you want to make love everyday, and I would love to work together to more closely align our levels of desire. Perhaps twice a week to start?


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Honestly, I think the every day person should look in the mirror and and go "Do I really need sex everyday?"
> 
> It's really easy to want something, think that other people are getting it and decide that you NEED it.
> 
> *If marital sex is equal parts pleasure and intimacy, then isn't it more important that you have sustainable "good" sex than pressure someone else into daily duty sex?*


I agree with you on that. But I also think the one who is satisfied with "every other week" should "look in the mirror" as well. I'm one who would prefer everyday. But I "settle" for once a week. Why? Because right now, that's all my husband can manage. When one or both of us has been sick, and even when we were disconnected for awhile, it got to the point where we were having sex once a month. NEITHER of us is satisfied with that, so we make it a point to make sure we get at LEAST once a week, unless one or both of us is sick. But, over all, we are well matched in our drives, by comparison. But, if his drive, or even mine for that matter, was once a month (or even every six weeks) and the other was daily, then it is not unreasonable to compromise and agree to once a week, with the possibility (read likelihood) of more often. But that's JMO. Like I said, I'm glad our drives are matched so this isn't an issue... our issue is physical incapability.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Or perhaps both people should look at EACH OTHER and say:
> 
> Honey, I love you and making love with you is very important to me, so please help me to help us make it a more enjoyable experience for both of us. I understand you do not want to everyday, and that is okay, but let's work together on a compromise so both of our needs can be more closely met.
> 
> ...


I suggested 3-5 times a week and he looked at like I'd suggested chopping of his wee wee.

:rofl:


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I suggested 3-5 times a week and he looked at like I'd suggested chopping of his wee wee.
> 
> :rofl:


A viable option... Just sayin'


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

It was hypothetical.

Your going to have to wean his wee-wee off you.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> It was hypothetical.
> 
> Your going to have to wean his wee-wee off you.


MWF and Sunday he can come to me with his wee wee.

Other than that....meet Rosie Palm and her 10 fingers.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Well, not with solid evidence. Like witnesses, or, better yet, recording.
> 
> Usually, at the first hearings, if evidence like this is being brought out, the Hakam (Judge) will order marriage counselling.
> 
> ...


Mostly no-fault divorce in the US. It's dividing the assets that triggers the fights, although in a community property state, such as California where I live, that can often be pretty simple, too.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If some judge told me to put out or get out, I'd sue him so fast he wouldn't even have time to bang his gavel.
> 
> America...a country where people are allowed to be *******s.


Except the judge has immunity for her judicial decisions.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> Except the judge has immunity for her judicial decisions.


Ah yes, but I can always appeal that decision and put some egg on her *****y face. 

I can also call her into question before the bar if her ruling has no good basis.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> Mostly no-fault divorce in the US. It's dividing the assets that triggers the fights, although in a community property state, such as California where I live, that can often be pretty simple, too.


Oh. well. The assets. 

In my country's law, there is a clear separation between what is asset that should be divided after a divorce, and what is not. (And the division is always by half, equal portions btw). Clan assets which are brought in before marriage are not considered as asset that should be divided. That is why, in my country, it is very common to have married couples living in a house belonged to the husband's (or the wife's) clan. In case of divorce, one of the divorcee simply move out of the house and return to her/his original clan.

Gifts, dowries and clan inheritances are also not considered as dividable asset (yea, clan system works!).

How does it works in your country?

Another Question, Mr. Jahartur, 

Let us hypothetically back to Miss LittleBird's case, let's say she finally married her fiancee, and maybe several years later they ended up in divorce (God forbid!). According to your American law, is it possible that she must split with her former husband, all her modelling earnings obtained during their marriage? 

(sorry for the sidetracking  )


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Oh. well. The assets.
> 
> In my country's law, there is a clear separation between what is asset that should be divided after a divorce, and what is not. (And the division is always by half, equal portions btw). Clan assets which are brought in before marriage are not considered as asset that should be divided. That is why, in my country, it is very common to have married couples living in a house belonged to the husband's (or the wife's) clan. In case of divorce, one of the divorcee simply move out of the house and return to her/his original clan.
> 
> ...


00

Unless he sat his ass on a rock in the middle of winter for 3 days straight to get one ****ing shot for some pompous Italian swimsuit company, the answer better be **** no.



:rofl:


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Ah yes, but I can always appeal that decision and put some egg on her *****y face.


Throwing egg to a judge, especially at her court, would be considered contempt of court (at least here in my country) and punishable by law. Not sure how it works in USA.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Throwing egg to a judge, especially at her court, would be considered contempt of court (at least here in my country) and punishable by law. Not sure how it works in USA.



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

No, "egg on her face" means publicly shamed.

I'm not actually gonna throw an egg at her!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> 00
> 
> Unless he sat his ass on a rock in the middle of winter for 3 days straight to get one ****ing shot for some pompous Italian swimsuit company, the answer better be **** no.
> 
> ...


Sadly, while I agree with you that it is not fair to split an earning if the other half does not contribute to that earning.. I believe it is up to the court to decide whether your earnings should be split or not... 

Yeah, you could've frozen your ass 3 days straight for your poses, while he's at home sitting his ass comfortably, playing x-box and writing poetry.. But if the court says "split your joint earnings", then...there goes half of your hard-earned modelling earnings... who ever said life is fair? 

That's why... two words...prenuptial agreement...


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> 00
> 
> Unless he sat his ass on a rock in the middle of winter for 3 days straight to get one ****ing shot for some pompous Italian swimsuit company, the answer better be **** no.
> 
> ...


My understanding, however, is that unless spelled out in a prenup, then all monies and other earnings (be it furnishings, houses, vehicles, etc) obtained during the marriage are split down the middle. I could be wrong about prenups though. I have never dealt with them in my life, thank GOD! But usually, earnings/inheritances/etc obtained BEFORE the marriage are written in and unable to be touched by the other spouse. Again, I could be wrong, but that's my understanding of how they work.... unless there are special provisions written in.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This is what I wanna know! IMO sex is a considered a need to most people but there has got to be a quantity limit on the word need!
> 
> My fiancé would love to tell me he "needs" daily sex and frankly, I call bull****! :rofl:


The thing is, everyone is biologically different so we can't set a "This is where the needs become wants" with sex. Some men don't have a major drive, so their _needs_ would be at least once a week. Some men have a crazy drive, so their _needs_ would be at least three times a week. Some women have crazy drives, so their _needs_ are five times a week. 

Now, I highly doubt anyone needs sex three times every day. Once a day, however, _can_ be a need, so it's important that we don't count something out just because it doesn't make sense to us. _I_, personally, don't _need_ sex every day. But I definitely feel emotionally tense and awkward if hubs and I don't sexually connect at least twice a week. Husband needs it at least four times a week.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Honestly, I think the every day person should look in the mirror and and go "Do I really need sex everyday?"
> 
> It's really easy to want something, think that other people are getting it and decide that you NEED it.
> 
> If marital sex is equal parts pleasure and intimacy, then isn't it more important that you have sustainable "good" sex than pressure someone else into daily duty sex?


_Pressure_ usually only comes in when the spouse with the lower sex drive is unwilling to increase the quantity even a little. When spouses really love each other, _both_ are willing to compromise, and as you will see in the majority of men and women on this forum, the ones who have the higher drive are usually quite happy so long as their spouse is willing to work with them. But often, this isn't the case. The lower drive is often stubborn, saying things like, "Sex isn't a need. You don't need it that much." 

Sex is mutual, which means that both people should be satisfied. If one is having to take less or more than they are truly comfortable with, the relationship isn't mutual. But it takes time to find that comfort zone between each other.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> If I could have sex every 2 or 3 days, it would give me a time to not be so bloody ****ing sore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In every healthy marriage I know of, this happens. Husbands and wives understand that sex isn't about one or the other, but rather both of them. When sex becomes only about the wife or husband, the who purpose of sex is lost.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This is what I wanna know! IMO sex is a considered a need to most people but there has got to be a quantity limit on the word need!
> 
> My fiancé would love to tell me he "needs" daily sex and frankly, I call bull****! :rofl:


Do you really want to know or do you just want to be right?

Personally when I am with the right person I need and want sex daily. There is no limit on the word need.
SO is away for a few days and I am going up the wall. I have my toys to play with which is fine but I need that man's body next to mine soon or I will go mad.

It isn't bull****, don't belittle your partners needs or wants so easily. Also he is a young man with a very healthy sexual desire, don't go squashing that.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Do you really want to know or do you just want to be right?
> 
> Personally when I am with the right person I need and want sex daily. There is no limit on the word need.
> SO is away for a few days and I am going up the wall. I have my toys to play with which is fine but I need that man's body next to mine soon or I will go mad.
> ...


Nobody is saying it is WRONG for him to want that.

And I give it to him because I love him not because I think he "needs" it and that he'll implode without daily sex.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> The thing is, everyone is biologically different so we can't set a "This is where the needs become wants" with sex. Some men don't have a major drive, so their _needs_ would be at least once a week. Some men have a crazy drive, so their _needs_ would be at least three times a week. Some women have crazy drives, so their _needs_ are five times a week.
> 
> Now, I highly doubt anyone needs sex three times every day. Once a day, however, _can_ be a need, so it's important that we don't count something out just because it doesn't make sense to us. _I_, personally, don't _need_ sex every day. But I definitely feel emotionally tense and awkward if hubs and I don't sexually connect at least twice a week. Husband needs it at least four times a week.


Putting a number on it makes no sense, even for one person. Desire is not constant.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Nobody is saying it is WRONG for him to want that.
> 
> And I give it to him because I love him not because I think he "needs" it and that he'll implode without daily sex.


You are still not understanding the subtilties of this. 

Do it because you love him, yes but for longevity you need to do it because you want to as well. If you do not want to do it as much as him, if there is a big discrepancy in desire then it might be time to question if you are with the right person.

He may well need it daily, he may well implode. But the two of you need to come to a middle ground or your relationship will not last.
If he cannot live with less and you cannot live with more (or are only doing it for him) then this is a mismatched relationship.

Is there any physical activity you do that you just need to do? eg a sport, just so you can understand that some things do feel like a need even if we logically know we won't implode if we don't do it.
For me it is cycling, I get all twitchy after a couple of days of not riding (today for eg). I know I am going to go in the afternoon but I haven't been for 3 days (school holidays) and I my body feels the need, big time. I just have to get out on the bike, my legs just have to move or I feel twitchy.
Hope this makes sense as an example.

Sex is similar for me, once it is on my mind I have to do it, my body and mind needs to do it. I won't implode if I don't do it but what the heck is life for if not to be lived to the full.
I have a need or desire I want to fulfill it, this is not wrong.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> You are still not understanding the subtilties of this.
> 
> Do it because you love him, yes but for longevity you need to do it because you want to as well. If you do not want to do it as much as him, if there is a big discrepancy in desire then it might be time to question if you are with the right person.
> 
> ...


I understand this but that seems more like one person's physical desire, rather than a relationship need.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that. 

If my fiancé came up to me and said he wanted sex (which he does, every day sometimes more) and I do it, I have no issue with that even though I don't consider it a need, I also don't consider it wrong.

However, if I turned him down and he said "But I need it" I would direct him to the time out corner because that sort of response reminds me of a five year old in the toy store.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This is very true.
> 
> Well, I was hoping he'd just slow down with age. He's 20, he's in his prime. I'm tying him down to monogamy the least I can do is **** him, right? That seems to be the theme. Lol.
> 
> I hope once the kids are born I can catch a break.


Um...no.

One day you are going to turn off the tap and he will resent it if he isn't given a heads up. You have been giving him sex on demand and one day you PLAN on saying no.

Better start that now and discuss a reasonable amount of sex...and stick with the agreement as much as possible. 

Also, 20 is very young to get married...


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> MWF and Sunday he can come to me with his wee wee.
> 
> Other than that....meet Rosie Palm and her 10 fingers.


Would he be satisfied with you giving him a HJ instead of sex on the days you aren't into it? It can be really awesome giving your partner pleasure even if you're not having sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Would he be satisfied with you giving him a HJ instead of sex on the days you aren't into it? It can be really awesome giving your partner pleasure even if you're not having sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have tried that, believe me I've tried but he always make a pouty face until I have full blown sex with him. If I give him a bj, twenty minutes later he's whining my name until I give in. 

But I would be open to that, yes.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Um...no.
> 
> One day you are going to turn off the tap and he will resent it if he isn't given a heads up. You have been giving him sex on demand and one day you PLAN on saying no.
> 
> ...


Since I posted that, I've had a discussion with him that I'm not interested in daily sex, especially if I'm not having any orgasms.

Which I'm not


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have tried that, believe me I've tried but he always make a pouty face until I have full blown sex with him. If I give him a bj, twenty minutes later he's whining my name until I give in.
> 
> But I would be open to that, yes.


 I'm an every day sex type woman but this would p*ss me right off if my partner acted like that if I was trying hard to make sure he was taken care of even if I wasn't on the same physical needs wavelength as him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Not having orgasms sucks. Didn't have orgasms during sex til almost mid twenties. I didn't start loving sex til w my SO bc he gives them to me no problem. I can see not wanting it more than a few times a week if you're not orgasming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm an every day sex type woman but this would p*ss me right off if my partner acted like that if I was trying hard to make sure he was taken care of even if I wasn't on the same physical needs wavelength as him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm working on establishing boundaries. 

If he can't learn to be mature and respect that I'm going out of my way to make sure he's happy, then I'm just going to avoid him on the no sex days.

I don't want it to be this way but I can't establish being a doormat.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Not having orgasms sucks. Didn't have orgasms during sex til almost mid twenties. I didn't start loving sex til w my SO bc he gives them to me no problem. I can see not wanting it more than a few times a week if you're not orgasming.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

If I didn't force my self to be engaged, from the physical alone, I'd be counting ceiling tiles.

But emotionally I can get somewhat into it.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I understand this but that seems more like one person's physical desire, rather than a relationship need.
> 
> Now, there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


LB this is all just a discussion, I hear what you are saying but I really just want you to hear the other side and from a woman so you can't say that the need for sex is just a male thing.

I tell my partner I need to feel him, I need to have sex with him and honestly it does feel like a need. We can call it a want but what is the difference really? I need sex with him because I want sex with him. I want him so badly that it feels like a need that must be met or I will implode.

If your partner said "but I need it" is he saying I just need to root anyone that is in my field of view or is he saying he desires you and you are the one he wants sex with?

If your partner says "but I need it" is that wrong even if it is just a physical need? 

These are just questions, I am not sure if they have right or wrong answers. They are just to make you think more about your situation which is not healthy or balanced. And yes i am old as you have pointed out, with that comes experience. Believe me I do not want to see anyone live an unbalanced life. I did it for too long so take my misery from the past and learn from it.

We all have physical needs and no adult should ever be sent to the naughty corner for simply having a physical need.
Do not turn into the wife that scolds her husband because he is sexual and has needs.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have tried that, believe me I've tried but he always make a pouty face until I have full blown sex with him. If I give him a bj, twenty minutes later he's whining my name until I give in.
> 
> But I would be open to that, yes.


Yeah well this is a boundaries issue. A pouty man would be a major turn off but you still give in. 

If I just want to get some BJ action but not go to PIV I grab him, undress him but stay fully clothed. It gives me a power buzz, he is happy, I am happy, life is good.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> LB this is all just a discussion, I hear what you are saying but I really just want you to hear the other side and from a woman so you can't say that the need for sex is just a male thing.
> 
> I tell my partner I need to feel him, I need to have sex with him and honestly it does feel like a need. We can call it a want but what is the difference really? I need sex with him because I want sex with him. I want him so badly that it feels like a need that must be met or I will implode.
> 
> ...



I understand this line of thinking. 

But when he wants to have sex with me every single day, that honestly says to me "I just want to root anything in sight." 

That doesn't make me feel particularly special. No conversation, no acts of service- just sex. So since none of the other boxes are checked, it does start to feel like "just sex" and I get irritated with his immaturity in dealing with sex.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I think a lot comes from how someone expresses their need.
If someone sits down and has a proper conversation about their needs in a relationship it's very different to someone who pouts, strop or is passive aggressive about their needs, the latter always made them very childish and undesirable to me, I wouldn't have a desire to have sex with man who acted like a child.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I understand this line of thinking.
> 
> But when he wants to have sex with me every single day, that honestly says to me "I just want to root anything in sight."
> 
> That doesn't make me feel particularly special. No conversation, no acts of service- just sex. So since none of the other boxes are checked, it does start to feel like "just sex" and I get irritated with his immaturity in dealing with sex.


Sorry I may have missed this earlier in the thread or you haven't mentioned these issue. If you do not feel special at other times and you are not having satisfying sex do you think you two really are compatible? 

The only examples I can give is my own experience so forgive me for sounding self centered. My partner shows me how special I am to him *every day*, he tells me with words, he shows me with actions, he does things for me and with me. He is interested in me and what my interests are.
When something exciting happens during his day he txts me as soon as he can. When something not so good happens he talks to me and feels safe to be vulnerable with me.
He spoils me and he loves it when I spoil him.

So when he says to me "come on babe let's go to bed" I am there in a heartbeat. 


I agree with the pp that said 20 is too young for you to get married. There is no need to rush. Some more life experience would do you the world of good.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have tried that, believe me I've tried but he always make a pouty face until I have full blown sex with him. If I give him a bj, twenty minutes later he's whining my name until I give in.


Oh no, no, no, no. Behaving like a whiny, spoiled brat wouldn't work with me. I'd be telling him to stop whining like a baby and start acting like a MAN!


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Oh no, no, no, no. Behaving like a whiny, spoiled brat wouldn't work with me. I'd be telling him to stop whining like a baby and start acting like a MAN!


It's my fault. I WANTED to wait until marriage but one fateful drunk night....ugh. Opened a damn Pandora's Box.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Oh no, no, no, no. Behaving like a whiny, spoiled brat wouldn't work with me. I'd be telling him to stop whining like a baby and start acting like a MAN!


:iagree:
Asking for a bj like a toddle would ask for a dummy is a no go for me.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Oh no, no, no, no. Behaving like a whiny, spoiled brat wouldn't work with me. I'd be telling him to stop whining like a baby and start acting like a MAN!


Such simple words but oh so true and powerful. Women want sex with men not boys.

LB you had a troubled start in life, you are with an immature man, you don't feel special and you are questioning if your V even works (in a earlier post).

I have no experience with the abuse part so will keep out,
An immature man is not desirable sexually.
If you don't feel special or valued then I get why you don't want sex so much with him.
And yes your V works, it is your mind that is the issue.

Do you want the best in life? You are a smart woman, start putting your needs first.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's my fault. I WANTED to wait until marriage but one fateful drunk night....ugh. Opened a damn Pandora's Box.


Marriage doesn't stop someone whining for something, he would still be the same person.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's my fault. I WANTED to wait until marriage but one fateful drunk night....ugh. Opened a damn Pandora's Box.


You may well hate what i am going to say but I think it is for the best that you did do it before marriage. now you have the chance to work through all this stuff before committing. 

He may mature and be the man you need by your side while you work through this stuff but if he does not grow up it will never work. 
It doesn't sound like either of you understand or really know each other despite your long history together.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> You may well hate what i am going to say but I think it is for the best that you did do it before marriage. now you have the chance to work through all this stuff before committing.
> 
> He may mature and be the man you need by your side while you work through this stuff but if he does not grow up it will never work.
> It doesn't sound like either of you understand or really know each other despite your long history together.


The both of us are just too young to get married. I don't even try to fool myself into thinking otherwise.

But I really do love him and I know he loves me too, otherwise he'd never put up with all the **** from his family and risk his inheritance for my sake. 

He's always stuck by my side.

I just think my needs have changed- he still acts like we did when we were 16. Now, I don't just need someone to love me.

I need someone to be responsible, respectful and mature. Stable not just romantic. 

He's a good guy, he really is, we both need to grow up though.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

If you have always had sex when he wants, bj's, cleaned he probably thought all was well and no need for change.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I understand this line of thinking.
> 
> But when he wants to have sex with me every single day, that honestly says to me "I just want to root anything in sight."
> 
> That doesn't make me feel particularly special. No conversation, no acts of service- just sex. So since none of the other boxes are checked, it does start to feel like "just sex" and I get irritated with his immaturity in dealing with sex.


Finally. We may be getting to the crux of the issue. Let's explore this deeper. 

I will start with a simple observation. Physically it seems to HIM to be just fine. You give him what he wants whenever he wants. Emotionally, it is extremely one sided, and your "needs" are nit even close to being met.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> If you have always had sex when he wants, bj's, cleaned he probably thought all was well and no need for change.


I created a monster 

I'm weaning him off of my vagina. He's going to have to get used to it for a while because we have bigger issues to deal with. 

For one....learn how to turn the ****ing oven on. Do not call me while I'm at work and say "I'm hungry."

You have money, order take out or learn to use the microwave. 

For two....stop leaving your ****ing **** ALL OVER MY CLEAN LEMON PLEDGE SMELLING FLOORS! 

But no, I really do love him.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Thoreau said:


> Finally. We may be getting to the crux of the issue. Let's explore this deeper.
> 
> I will start with a simple observation. Physically it seems to HIM to be just fine. You give him what he wants whenever he wants. Emotionally, it is extremely one sided, and your "needs" are nit even close to being met.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I might be wrong but I don't physical satisfaction is being met either.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

abitlost said:


> Marriage doesn't stop someone whining for something, he would still be the same person.


:iagree::iagree:

Getting off the sex topic for a second, but still applies. There were things my husband did early on which were childish, IMO. For instance, he grew up getting top of the line electronics as they came out, and a mom who rarely, if ever, said "no" to him. I grew up in near poverty. My clothes weren't designer brands, his were. We had very little when we married, yet he wanted to continue in the manner to which he was accustomed. I told him "no" on a lot of things... He pouted, but he got over it. And I didn't give in to the pouting. You teach people how to treat you. If you give in to the whining and pouting, not just in purchases as exampled by my husband, but in all aspects, you will continue to be mistreated. Start now, or you will continue to be treated this way.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

My nan always said 'people tread you how you ALLOW them to treat you', she was soooo right lol.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I understand this but that seems more like one person's physical desire, rather than a relationship need.
> 
> Now, there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


LB, I think you're seeing things as a little too black and white. Firstly, your fiance needs to be _safe_ to tell you if he's not fulfilled sexually. If your response to him when he says, "Babe I need more sex" is to "direct him to the time out corner", you will, effectively, emasculate him to the point that your marriage will crumble within weeks. Now, I understand your authoritative stance. Your fiance has been incredibly selfish and immature. However, if he's ever going to grow into a man, he needs to be treated respectfully. And that starts with your mentality surrounding this sexual need issue. 

Secondly, you both need to learn to compromise. Success in marriage isn't about who gets what they want, as I'm sure you _know_ in your mind. Success in marriage is learning how to work through differences and issues, and when necessary, finding compromise. This will mean that you will, likely, need to give him sex more often than when you want to, and he will, likely, need to get less sex than he wants. However, as Holland has said, if your sexual drives are drastically different, the chances are that any compromise you come to will still be too much for either of you to feel fulfilled. 

You say that you're willing to just have sex to keep him happy, but I think you're underestimating the length of three years, five years, ten years. A lot of women have done exactly what you're doing, and as little as three years down the road are burning with resentment, and it ends up suffocating their marriage. I really encourage you to break this mindset of, "I'll just do it every day to keep him happy because I love him." It doesn't matter how much you love him, if you continue putting yourself second, resentment _will_ grow, and that love you feel now will seem invisible. It seems shallow to end a relationship based on sexual compatibility, but the reason it isn't shallow is that, if no mutually fulfilling compromise can be made, the relationship will likely end anyway. 

I'm not saying yours will, btw. However, if things don't continue to change with the both of you, the chances of the relationship being mutually fulfilling will lessen as time goes on.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

abitlost said:


> I might be wrong but I don't physical satisfaction is being met either.


For HIM it is. Two blowjobs and sex every day??? Without having to be emotionally connected? I think this 20 year old manchild is just fine with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Thoreau said:


> For HIM it is. Two blowjobs and sex every day??? Without having to be emotionally connected? I think this 20 year old manchild is just fine with that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I meant for her.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I'm working on establishing boundaries.
> 
> If he can't learn to be mature and respect that I'm going out of my way to make sure he's happy, then I'm just going to avoid him on the no sex days.
> 
> I don't want it to be this way but I can't establish being a doormat.


You won't like me for saying this, but I hope the point gets through: if he can't learn to be mature and respect your efforts, _he doesn't deserve to be with you_, and you should *not* marry him.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I understand this line of thinking.
> 
> But when he wants to have sex with me every single day, that honestly says to me "I just want to root anything in sight."
> 
> That doesn't make me feel particularly special. No conversation, no acts of service- just sex. So since none of the other boxes are checked, it does start to feel like "just sex" and I get irritated with his immaturity in dealing with sex.


This will change as he matures and you enforce boundaries. However, you also need to work on adjusting your mentality. Needing and wanting sex everyday isn't wrong. How that need and want is expressed definitely can be, and your fiance is so incredibly selfish, it really is understandable how you could feel such negative connotations attached to sex. However, as he matures(and hopefully he will), you really need to concentrate on not keeping such negative thoughts. Otherwise your fiance will sense it and may feel resentful. 

I know it's a lot to take in. "You should do this and that and the other", can be overwhelming. But you really are putting yourself on the track to success. I want to see you succeed in this, and hopefully your fiance will follow suit.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I know this is your life but I have to say it has been an interesting discussion.

Yes I am old enough to be your mum  but you know if my daughter were in your shoes I would say the same things to her that I have to you. 

You do sound like a smart woman, I hope you get the best in life.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> For HIM it is. Two blowjobs and sex every day??? Without having to be emotionally connected? I think this 20 year old manchild is just fine with that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pooh bear is not a man child! 

He prefers the term man boy. 

And it really isn't his fault, I haven't been firm with him.

I let him wake me for sex, I let him interrupt dinner for sex, I let him pass out after sex while I stay up and do the things I didn't get to because we were having sex....


It takes two to tango.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> I know this is your life but I have to say it has been an interesting discussion.
> 
> Yes I am old enough to be your mum  but you know if my daughter were in your shoes I would say the same things to her that I have to you.
> 
> You do sound like a smart woman, I hope you get the best in life.


Thank you Miss Holland. I'm sorry if I was rude to you earlier.

You're my new Mama Bear


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Pooh bear is not a man child!
> 
> He prefers the term man boy.
> 
> ...


It isn't your fault how he acts (he's 20 not 5), but it is up to you how you respond.


----------



## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

the thing is what is good enough ?

a lot of people talking about the love languages, don't know who has read the book "the 5 love languages " but we all have different ones....

my hubbys was physical touch and i always made sure to do something EVERY day for him, scratching his back, holdinh hands, playing with his hair, i loved being intimate and having fun in the bedroom.... was always up for it, had fun, had the O and really never said no ....... maybe once every 3 months would say oh hurry up cause i am tired 

i had 3 kids under 4..... so this may have caused me to be a bit tired..

but the thing was that my love language wasnt met, mine was maybe once a month when he would say i looked good ?!??!

a lot of men complain that their woman isnt into it. we been married 15 years plus and i am lot younger than him, have a high sex drive and if he left me along long enough ( 3 days) then i would have to attack him .... in a good way ...

i was happy with that ..... but he wasnt because 2 to 3 times a week wasnt enough for him plus me doing other things for him too to help relieve tension, plus he himself doing that also

so my question is what is enough ??

he still was unfaithful and now we rarely do anything ever because i have lost trust and desire ....

.. he actually has something to complain about now


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

goodwife4 said:


> the thing is what is good enough ?
> 
> a lot of people talking about the love languages, don't know who has read the book "the 5 love languages " but we all have different ones....
> 
> ...


Infidelity is a personal choice. 

That's not your problem.

HE chose to cheat. It doesn't matter what he thinks you did, nothing justifies that.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So, not only should I accept duty sex; but I should also be grateful for it. Good luck with that. I'd rather leave and find someone who's into me.


I think Rose defined "because I love you" sex and not duty sex but these terms are as confusing as the man up labels.

EDIT: Note to self: read more next time before assuming intent.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I think LB and her fiancé might have set up a dynamic they can't change. If you have known him from childhood, and you are each others' only real relationship partners then real growth and change is going to be very difficult if you stay together.

Kind of like adult siblings regressing to their childhood dynamics and relationships when they get together.

I know this because my husband and I fell in love when we were 18, we met in high school. We struggled with this, we had to be apart for 2 years in our 20s in order to mature and shake off the bad dynamics we had built, and I do mean apart, not whatever pretending-to-be-broken-up thing you've got going on. 

To be honest, it's still a struggle sometimes. During the last year I realised something about my husband that in hindsight was/is blindingly obvious. If we had met as adults I would have seen it very quickly. But because I was still accepting this part of him on his own teenage analysis, instead of applying my increased adult ability to judge and see clearly, it took until I was nearly 40. 

It's like parts of us remained frozen as 18 year olds, but only with each other. It's the dark side of falling in love so young.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> Never knew that dark skinned people had different/difficult hair. Yeah if I was spending big dollars and 4 hours doing it then I would be very guarded of if.


Black hair only tends to become "difficult" when you're trying to change the natural texture. Since it's extremely malleable, and for many, many reasons a lot of women feel the need to straighten their hair, it becomes more of a process. And that doesn't include the women who wear extensions, weaves, and wigs, which is plentiful.

For Black people who wear their hair in it's natural state, whatever that state might be, it's not really any more difficult to manage than anybody else who is wearing their hair in it's natural state.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Black hair only tends to become "difficult" when you're trying to change the natural texture. Since it's extremely malleable, and for many, many reasons a lot of women feel the need to straighten their hair, it becomes more of a process. And that doesn't include the women who wear extensions, weaves, and wigs, which is plentiful.
> 
> For Black people who wear their hair in it's natural state, whatever that state might be, it's not really any more difficult to manage than anybody else who is wearing their hair in it's natural state.


To be fair, I don't put anything in my hair but I do straighten it. 

Then again, I'm a "mulatto" so maybe my hair is just special.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This is what I wanna know! IMO sex is a considered a need to most people but there has got to be a quantity limit on the word need!
> 
> My fiancé would love to tell me he "needs" daily sex and frankly, I call bull****! :rofl:


Well keep in mind that most human beings do not "need" to eat or shower daily.

But how would you feel if somebody suggested that you go a couple of days without food, or taking a shower? Because unless you're suffering from a disease, the human body is perfectly equipped to operate fine without either of these "needs".



LittleBird said:


> To be fair, I don't put anything in my hair but I do straighten it.
> 
> Then again, I'm a "mulatto" so maybe my hair is just special.


I would say everybody's hair is "special".


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Well keep in mind that most human beings do not "need" to eat or shower daily.
> 
> But how would you feel if somebody suggested that you go a couple of days without food, or taking a shower? Because unless you're suffering from a disease, the human body is perfectly equipped to operate fine without either of these "needs".
> 
> ...


My hair is just a ****ing ridiculous ridiculousness.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Honestly, I think the every day person should look in the mirror and and go "Do I really need sex everyday?"


No they shouldn't. That's something only a LD person would say. 

The HD, daily sex person should look into the mirror and ask "Why was I stupid enough to marry a person who didn't have similar sexual desires as I do".

If you're somebody who wants sex very frequently, and you're with somebody who challenges that need, you need to run away from them yesterday. It's a bad match.

It is no different that a person who needs to hear "I love you" everyday,or needs daily touch, marrying somebody who says "I don't feel that's a real need".


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> No they shouldn't. That's something only a LD person would say.
> 
> The HD, daily sex person should look into the mirror and ask "Why was I stupid enough to marry a person who didn't have similar sexual desires as I do".
> 
> ...


I'm still wrapping my head around this but I'm fairly sure that VERY FEW PEOPLE would honestly defend daily sex as a legitimate, relationship make or breaking need.

If you will only stay married to someone if daily sex is happening, you shouldn't be married. IMO. 

If the two partners want to do that, great. More power to them.

But to break up over that is, I'm sorry, pretty ****ing ridiculous.

"Forever and every...but only if you **** me on a daily basis."


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm still wrapping my head around this but I'm fairly sure that VERY FEW PEOPLE would honestly defend daily sex as a legitimate, relationship make or breaking need.
> 
> If you will only stay married to someone if daily sex is happening, you shouldn't be married. IMO.
> 
> ...


Which is why somebody who wants to have sex daily should marry somebody who doesn't roll their eyes, and call their sexual level of desire "pretty f*cking ridiculous". They should be with somebody who says "yep, that's how much I like too", or damn near close to it.

A friend of mine is one of about seven children. We were having a conversation about sex, and somehow got on frequency. I mentioned that my wife and I typically have sex 3 to 4 times a week (which is pretty much more frequent sex than anybody close to us is having). He said "That's it? Why?". I was baffled. I said that's pretty high. He went on to mention that his parents, married for nearly 30 years, still have sex daily. From his perspective, the people who set the tone of sexuality in his life, it was typical for married people to have sex daily.

Now you think it's not possible. And I'm telling you that it is possible, if there are two compatible people with similar drives, and outlooks on sex. Of course changes can happen in a relationship, but if at all possible, two people should go into a marriage with similarly aligned sexual drives.

Anything less is bound to create huge problems, which is sadly often the case.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Which is why somebody who wants to have sex daily should marry somebody who doesn't roll their eyes, and call their sexual level of desire "pretty f*cking ridiculous". They should be with somebody who says "yep, that's how much I like too", or damn near close to it.
> 
> A friend of mine is one of about seven children. We were having a conversation about sex, and somehow got on frequency. I mentioned that my wife and I typically have sex 3 to 4 times a week (which is pretty much more frequent sex than anybody close to us is having). He said "That's it? Why?". I was baffled. I said that's pretty high. He went on to mention that his parents, married for nearly 30 years, still have sex daily. From his perspective, the people who set the tone of sexuality in his life, it was typical for married people to have sex daily.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but if you are willing to END A MARRIAGE over non-daily sex, that's pretty much the definition of shallow.

Just my opinion. 

Maybe I come from some romantic dimension where marriage is about more than sex.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm sorry but if you are willing to END A MARRIAGE over non-daily sex, that's pretty much the definition of shallow.
> 
> Just my opinion.


And you're entitled to your opinion.

But have you asked yourself why you're willing to marry a man who clearly doesn't hold the same view on sex as you do?




LittleBird said:


> Maybe I come from some romantic dimension where marriage is about more than sex.


Then you shouldn't marry somebody for whom sex is a vital part of romance.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm still wrapping my head around this but I'm fairly sure that VERY FEW PEOPLE would honestly defend daily sex as a legitimate, relationship make or breaking need.
> 
> If you will only stay married to someone if daily sex is happening, you shouldn't be married. IMO.
> 
> ...


nah you are going black and white on this. No one is going to say they have to have sex daily or divorce. But it is important that sex drives are compatible.

There also has to be respect about boundaries, saying no or any other variable that comes into play.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> nah you are going black and white on this. No one is going to say they have to have sex daily or divorce. But it is important that sex drives are compatible.
> 
> There also has to be respect about boundaries, saying no or any other variable that comes into play.


:iagree:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> And you're entitled to your opinion.
> 
> But have you asked yourself why you're willing to marry a man who clearly doesn't hold the same view on sex as you do?
> 
> ...


He wants daily sex but he wants ME more. Which is the way it should be. Otherwise he can get daily sex from a hooker.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He wants daily sex but he wants ME more. Which is the way it should be. *Otherwise he can get daily sex from a hooker.*


Again, you really, really need to tell your man this is how you view sex.

And how would you feel if whatever daily, or frequent needs, you have in a relationship were meant with such blatant disrespect?


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

To feel happy, connected and in love with my husband I need to have some kind of sexual contact with him at least three times a week. Four or five is even better. From that, I don't think it's a stretch that someone might need to connect sexually once a day to feel that same connection. 

Over years, if I was consistently getting less than that, maybe only once or twice a week, I would fall out of love and eventually get divorced.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Again, you really, really need to tell your man this is how you view sex.
> 
> And how would you feel if whatever daily, or frequent needs, you have in a relationship were meant with such blatant disrespect?


There is no clause in the wedding vow that says I will only stick by me if you have sex with me on a daily basis.

I'm sorry but I think to get divorced over sex a few times a week is BLATANT disrespect to the entire idea of marriage.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> To feel happy, connected and in love with my husband I need to have some kind of sexual contact with him at least three times a week. Four or five is even better. From that, I don't think it's a stretch that someone might need to connect sexually once a day to feel that same connection.
> 
> Over years, if I was consistently getting less than that, maybe only once or twice a week, I would fall out of love and eventually get divorced.


That is reasonable. I see no issue with that. 

But "I only love you if we are having sex every day" is....there is is so much wrong with that.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

My wife craves physical affection several times a day, almost every single day. She desires hugs, kisses, back rubs, to lay on, or close beside, me. Will she wither and die without this? Of course not, but it's vital to her sense of well being. 

Now there are lots of men and women who do not need anywhere near this level of daily, constant physical attention. If paired with my wife, they would find it difficult, or even absurd, that a person would "need" to have this kind of constant touch.

Is my wife wrong for having this "need"? Nope. Is the person who doesn't believe they should have to fulfill this daily "need" wrong? Nope.

But it damn sure would be wrong for these two people to marry.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> There is no clause in the wedding vow that says I will only stick by me if you have sex with me on a daily basis.
> 
> I'm sorry but I think to get divorced over sex a few times a week is BLATANT disrespect to the entire idea of marriage.


Two people who decide to marry get to decide what they're vowing too.

Long before we exchanged marital vows, or even had sex, my wife and I made it perfectly clear what our needs were sexually. We both have very similar drives, and we both initiate, and enjoy, sex a great deal. It is extremely important to our relationship.

That's apart of the promises we made to one another. I can't speak for the promises anybody else said.

Two people need to walk into marriage with as clear an idea about personal need, and expectations, as humanly possible.

The fact that you are scoffing at people who feel they need sex daily, yet are planning to marry a man who scoffs at the idea of you dropping sex down to 3-5 times a week, is a huge red flag. You, for some odd reason, just chose to ignore it. Which is a bad idea.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Back to square one LB. I divorced my ex due to it being sexless. What you need to understand is that it is not about sex, it is about lack of intimacy, feelings of rejection and the hurt that not having your needs met causes.

Maybe it is one of those things that you need to walk a mile in someone's shoes to understand and that is the problem that LD people do not get. Their rejection of their spouses slowly chips away until the rejected spouse can no longer stand the rejector.
Love dies, marriage ends.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaquen said:


> The HD, daily sex person should look into the mirror and ask "Why was I stupid enough to marry a person who didn't have similar sexual desires as I do".


ahum..eh...mmm.. maybe you're a victim of Bait and Switch(TM)? 



> If you're somebody who wants sex very frequently, and you're with somebody who challenges that need, you need to run away from them yesterday. It's a bad match.


Agreeable. That's what divorce lawyers are for! And after the dust settles, you can start a new life :smthumbup:

But, to make things fair, HD vs LD can be fixed with a mutually-satisfactory compromise. HD wants daily sex. LD wants once a month. Both are too extreme. So they settle for 8 times of sex a month. And if HD are really horny while LD really not into it, HD is allowed to masturbate with LD's accompaniment, or whatever arrangement they think best. And if these could be finalized before marriage, it will save a lot of trouble later.

The key is compromise, as many here has stated again and again. A mutually satisfactory compromise.



> It is no different that a person who needs to hear "I love you" everyday,or needs daily touch, marrying somebody who says "I don't feel that's a real need".


Ouch, that hurts!


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> That is reasonable. I see no issue with that.
> 
> But "I only love you if we are having sex every day" is....there is is so much wrong with that.


I don't see much difference. If someone can feel like that over 3/5 times per week, someone else can feel like that over every day. It's only a couple of days difference.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Back to square one LB. I divorced my ex due to it being sexless. What you need to understand is that it is not about sex, it is about lack of intimacy, feelings of rejection and the hurt that not having your needs met causes.
> 
> Maybe it is one of those things that you need to walk a mile in someone's shoes to understand and that is the problem that LD people do not get. Their rejection of their spouses slowly chips away until the rejected spouse can no longer stand the rejector.
> Love dies, marriage ends.


If I let him, my fiancé would be on top of me ALL DAY. 

I do not feel guilty about telling him to get off me the fourth time he approaches me for sex in a day.

No one is talking extremes, here because then I see what you are saying.

But to leave someone over say, a few times a week....basically says ALL YOU ARE GOOD FOR IS SEX AND I AM NOT GETTING IT SO BYE.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I don't see much difference. If someone can feel like that over 3/5 times per week, someone else can feel like that over every day. It's only a couple of days difference.


If you leave someone over that, it's basically a giant "all you are good for is sex" slap in the face.

Everything else is great but I'm only getting sex 5 times a week so everything I said in my vow is null and void.

:scratchhead:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Two people who decide to marry get to decide what they're vowing too.
> 
> Long before we exchanged marital vows, or even had sex, my wife and I made it perfectly clear what our needs were sexually. We both have very similar drives, and we both initiate, and enjoy, sex a great deal. It is extremely important to our relationship.
> 
> ...


*I* as a person am more important to him than my vagina.

Thank God or I wouldn't be marrying him.

Daily sex with some random ***** is not worth losing me- his very own words.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Your fiancé clearly has a very high drive. You don't. It is such a huge mistake for you to marry each other. You need to find someone more compatible.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Your fiancé clearly has a very high drive. You don't. It is such a huge mistake for you to marry each other. You need to find someone more compatible.


I have a reactive personality.

That is to say, I have very few innate desires.

But I can go along for the ride as long as it's a give and take. 

I don't mind giving more in the sex department as long as I get something out of it in other departments.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I wonder if where you do so much in your relationship and feel pressured for sex maybe it's dampening your drive or fun (not saying you would want sex everyday).
If you want sex you need to keep yourself desirable and put in effort in to please your partner.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have a reactive personality.
> 
> That is to say, I have very few innate desires.
> 
> ...


Now, maybe. In 10, 20 years? No way.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> I wonder if where you do so much in your relationship and feel pressured for sex maybe it's dampening your drive or fun (not saying you would want sex everyday).
> If you want sex you need to keep yourself desirable and put in effort in to please your partner.


I don't want to go the gym every day but I do it cause it keeps my body in shape.

I don't want to clean but I do it because a clean house is more relaxing.

I don't need sex. I don't like it but I don't hate it. If he wants it he can have it. I'm not about to end a relationship over sex and neither is he, since it's not something ridiculous like "once a year" or whatever.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Your fiancé clearly has a very high drive. You don't. It is such a huge mistake for you to marry each other. You need to find someone more compatible.


That, Mrs. Lyris, are conventional wisdom and common sense.

Unless they want to compromise, and actually willing to do each other's part of the deal with joy, happiness, honesty and acceptance.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Now, maybe. In 10, 20 years? No way.


It's not about the money, the reason I'm marrying him. But for the amount I'll be getting and the opportunities my kids are going to have, I could jump one legged on a pogo stick and sing the hokey pokey song everyday if that's what he wanted.

It sounds impossible to keep up but my experiences have, in a sad, twisted way, made it possible for me to do sexual things (enthusiastically) even when I don't really want to. I did it for six years with someone I hated. So with someone I love, I like to to have hope for us.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't want to go the gym every day but I do it cause it keeps my body in shape.
> 
> I don't want to clean but I do it because a clean house is more relaxing.
> 
> I don't need sex. I don't like it but I don't hate it. If he wants it he can have it. I'm not about to end a relationship over sex and neither is he, since it's not something ridiculous like "once a year" or whatever.


Something your indifferent to will become a hassle when/if you have kids and career takes off, that's when friction occurs.
I meant that sex won't take such a nose dive if your needs in the relationship are met.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> Something your indifferent to will become a hassle when/if you have kids and career takes off, that's when friction occurs.
> I meant that sex won't take such a nose dive if your needs in the relationship are met.


:iagree::iagree:

I can't see him unhappy and not do something about it. If he comes to me with a genuine sex issue, I'll fix it. Simple as.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's not about the money, the reason I'm marrying him. But for the amount I'll be getting and the opportunities my kids are going to have, I could jump one legged on a pogo stick and sing the hokey pokey song everyday if that's what he wanted.
> 
> It sounds impossible to keep up but my experiences have, in a sad, twisted way, made it possible for me to do sexual things (enthusiastically) even when I don't really want to. I did it for six years with someone I hated. So with someone I love, I like to to have hope for us.


Well, I suppose if you're willing to stay stunted and immature and prune yourself down to stop any kind of emotional growth. For your whole life. Sure, maybe you can continue to act enthusiastically.

That's going to destroy you though. Never being your authentic self. 

I'm not going to touch the material aspect, except to say I thought you said you'd be very comfortable yourself when your grandmother died. Plus you're in law school, so your earning power should be fine. 

And what happens when your kids are grown and gone? And you're left with this person for whom you have been suppressing your true desires, or lack thereof, for 20 years?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If I let him, my fiancé would be on top of me ALL DAY.
> 
> I do not feel guilty about telling him to get off me the fourth time he approaches me for sex in a day.
> 
> ...


But you and your man are fundementally mismatched in as wide a margin as I've ever seen.

He wants sex once daily, and sometimes more than that.

You hate sex.

This can not work.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Well, I suppose if you're willing to stay stunted and immature and prune yourself down to stop any kind of emotional growth. For your whole life. Sure, maybe you can continue to act enthusiastically.
> 
> That's going to destroy you though. Never being your authentic self.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

Actually...I never thought past the kids....

You're right, they will leave one day....

That's too far in the future for my head to go....

Very good point....


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> But you and your man are fundementally mismatched in as wide a margin as I've ever seen.
> 
> He wants sex once daily, and sometimes more than that.
> 
> ...


I don't *hate* it. I just don't get any pleasure from it. I get a sense of emotional well begin from it but it is the same emotional fulfillment I get from kissing and cuddling. So I would say I need intimacy but not full blown sex.

And no man on EARTH wants to be in a sexless marriage...so either I have sex more than I wan to or I die alone.

And the **** if that's happening.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> So I would say I need intimacy but not full blown sex.


So would you be fine with your fiance telling you that you don't really need intimacy every day, and if you do you can go hire a giglo to fulfill your need for intimacy?

Would it, according to your criteria, be fine for me to go into my bedroom and announce to my wife that her need for physical touch every day is stupid?




LittleBird said:


> And no man on EARTH wants to be in a sexless marriage...


Guess you missed the many threads here from desperate TAM women married to men who are perfectly content in a sexless marriage, and won't even touch their wives.

You do not particularly like, or need sex. This is very important information that ANY man you're serious with deserves to know.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's not about the money, the reason I'm marrying him. But for the amount I'll be getting and the opportunities my kids are going to have, I could jump one legged on a pogo stick and sing the hokey pokey song everyday if that's what he wanted.
> 
> It sounds impossible to keep up but my experiences have, in a sad, twisted way, made it possible for me to do sexual things (enthusiastically) even when I don't really want to. I did it for six years with someone I hated. So with someone I love, I like to to have hope for us.


Are you saying you are sleeping with him because he has money and will give your future kids opportunities? Really?


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't *hate* it. I just don't get any pleasure from it. I get a sense of emotional well begin from it but it is the same emotional fulfillment I get from kissing and cuddling. So I would say I need intimacy but not full blown sex.
> 
> And no man on EARTH wants to be in a sexless marriage...so either I have sex more than I wan to or I die alone.
> 
> And the **** if that's happening.


So you find someone who is happy with sex once or twice a week. Not someone who wants it several times a day.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Are you saying you are sleeping with him because he has money and will give your future kids opportunities? Really?


I'm sleeping with him because I love him.

But I'm also practical. He's got everything on my "future husband" checklist and he's actually decent to me, which is a bonus I never really expected. My future kids are really, really important to me and I'd never marry someone who couldn't give them what I want them to have. 

I'm not going to pretend I'm good at forming attachments because I'm not. The only reason I can manage with him is because I've known him so long.

I'll do whatever it takes to make it work as long as I can make him happy. If I ever can't make him happy, then I will walk away. Right now he says he's happy.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> So would you be fine with your fiance telling you that you don't really need intimacy every day, and if you do you can go hire a giglo to fulfill your need for intimacy?
> 
> Would it, according to your criteria, be fine for me to go into my bedroom and announce to my wife that her need for physical touch every day is stupid?
> 
> ...


He knows.

I asked him if he could live with a few time a week, he said yes, there are more important things than sex. Thank God.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He knows.
> 
> I asked him if he could live with a few time a week, he said yes, there are more important things than sex. Thank God.


Well if you made it clear, and he agreed, than he can never say he didn't know what he was getting into on that front.

You told him that you do not like sex? What was his reaction?

And, again, are you fine with your intimacy needs going unmet to the standard you would like? Has that too been established?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Well if you made it clear, and he agreed, than he can never say he didn't know what he was getting into on that front.
> 
> You told him that you do not like sex? What was his reaction?
> 
> And, again, are you fine with your intimacy needs going unmet to the standard you would like? Has that too been established?


I don't "need" anything but food, water and a place to sleep.

So yes, I want other things. Luckily he gives those wants to me for the most part. 

But I wouldn't throw a ***** fit if he stopped kissing me every day and started kissing me every other day. 

And he wants us to work on 'liking" sex together, which is fine by me


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He knows.
> 
> I asked him if he could live with a few time a week, he said yes, there are more important things than sex. Thank God.


Really? I thought you said he looked at you like "WTF" and then pouted around the house.

Has he actually stopped hassling you for sex?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Really? I thought you said he looked at you like "WTF" and then pouted around the house.
> 
> Has he actually stopped hassling you for sex?


LOL, well initially he did react that way.

But once he realized he was hurting my feelings he stopped.

At first he took our talk as "Your penis is inadequate" or whatever ego/male sex thing 20 years old think of.

But once he realized it was MY issue he relaxed. 

He's stopped whining for it. He gives me a hint, I either respond or I don't while we work on this.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

This thread is starting to give me whiplash.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This thread is starting to give me whiplash.


LB uses exaggeration, selective truth-telling, hiding of events, deliberate misunderstanding and straw-man arguments to defend and explain herself. She also, I'm pretty sure, has told outright lies here and there.

She's been much better in this thread.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> LB uses exaggeration, selective truth-telling, hiding of events, deliberate misunderstanding and straw-man arguments to defend and explain herself. She also, I'm pretty sure, has told outright lies here and there.
> 
> She's been much better in this thread.


Mrs. Lyris, very perceptive.. 

But I look at the bright side.. reading these threads gave me ideas for writing a script for a romantic film. Or a soap opera...

Or a self-help book..


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Since I posted that, I've had a discussion with him that I'm not interested in daily sex, especially if I'm not having any orgasms.
> 
> Which I'm not


Good! These are important conversations to have with the fiance.

I apologize if you've answered this already, but this thread has taken off like a California brush fire in summer. I posted this morning (my time) and it's already 6 pages past.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

This thread reminds me of that quote from Mel Brook's Robin Hood: Men in Tights.



Maid Marian: Wait! 
Sheriff of Rottingham: What for? 
Maid Marian: If you promise not to kill Robin, I shall do the most disgusting thing that I can think of.
Prince John: Oooohhh. 
Sheriff of Rottingham: Oh? And what's that? 
Maid Marian: I shall marry you. 
Sheriff of Rottingham: What? You'll be mine? You'll give yourself to me every night? And sometimes, right after lunch?
Maid Marian: Yes, but only my body. You can never have my heart, my mind, or my soul!
Sheriff of Rottingham: Oh, oh yes! I respect that. 

Thought the thread could use some lightening up.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HR
Our norm is what you describe. I can tell you that my wife almost always radiates a vibe of being really into me and in no rush at all to 'get it over with'. And I am really happy with that. 

The raw list thing is subject to a lot of random life events.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Just put down my laptop and gave my husband a BJ while he was playing COD online. I told him, "I'm going to suck you now. And you can't stop playing the game either. If you stop playing, I stop sucking. Oh, and if you lose the game, no more BJ's for you." (I was kidding.)
> 
> He said it was so hot and turned him on so much. It took less than eight minutes.
> 
> And you think men have high sexual expectations because...why?


<wipes away tears of joy and jealousy>

God Bless you, Created2Write. God Bless you.

aribabe, THAT is the 'incredible expectations' men want. The occasional spontaneous and heartfelt BJ out of the blue.

That means a hell of a lot to Mr. Created2Write. It would mean a lot to me.

No rafters...no porn...no tie downs, anal, or buckets of cum.

Someone who wants you and shows it...sometimes gratuitously...and even more fun together.



Edited to add: Forgot the important part...


:allhail:


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

JCD said:


> ..(snip).THAT is the 'incredible expectations' men want. The occasional spontaneous and heartfelt BJ out of the blue.
> 
> That means a hell of a lot to Mr. Created2Write. It would mean a lot to me.
> 
> No rafters...no porn...no tie downs, anal, or buckets of cum..


pardon me sir, but where was it written anywhere in this thread, that men demand rafters, porn, tie down, anal or buckets of cum? _BUCKETS_ of cum? It's a struggle to fill a glass in one session, how are we going to fill a bucket?:scratchhead:


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I like this idea.
> 
> I think I started the resentment because everything leads to sex.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry...but :rofl:

Your abuse has messed you up more than you know.

You should NOT feel that you have to (let me be very clear on this) *ALLOW* every single touch, glance, comment, or movie to be a free pass to *****.

YOU are not establishing any boundaries on the sexual front...and seem to be hoping you can wake up one day and establish them.

No wonder you seem so...resentful? unexcited? put upon? when discussing sex. It is and remains an obligation to you. You seem to think you can 'buy' his love with sex and saying no a single time will put him into a tailspin of despair.

I don't know the details of your abuse, but you likely couldn't say no to your abusers. Sex was out of your control...and it seems it's STILL that way. He is not your abuser! And you are allowed to say no.

Maybe I am simplifying and I apologize if that sounds condescending or unhelpful. This is how I read it.

I was 20 and I wanted every touch, cuddle, movie etc to lead to sex. Heck, at 25, I was still chasing her around the room. But...she's allowed to run.(Sometimes she willfully tripped  ) She's allowed to say no. (and more importantly, she said yes!)

So he is, not taking advantage, but making the most of your issues. The issues are yours. He is just taking what is given when he asks.


----------



## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't *hate* it. I just don't get any pleasure from it....So I would say I need intimacy but not full blown sex.


Those words are the root of the problem in my opinion. Fix that and many of the other issues and resentment goes away pretty quickly.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Get the picture? People have different tastes. Some of the things I just listed don't make sense to me. I absolutely do not see the obsession with anal. It doesn't make sense to me. BUT, it DOES make sense to others.
> 
> You, airbabe, don't get to decide what is or isn't common sense when it comes to sexual tastes for anyone else but yourself. THAT is my point. It may seem like common sense not to bite a girl's clitoris, or a guy's penis, but some _LIKE_ it. You don't get decide what they do or don't like, THEY do.
> 
> ...


Let's go to the positives and not get bogged down in just 'clit biting'

In fact, I am invoking a ban on mentioning clit biting again on this thread (waits to see how that works)

aribabe wants to accuse and blame men for being bad and unfulfilling lovers. MOST men. Most men on EARTH. Most men HERE.

So...why are the women unfulfilled?

Let's take a specific woman I know whom we'll call "Honey."

I have specifically asked "Honey" what she likes. Note that I didn't ask if she wants various parts of her body BITTEN (though a few nibbles were essayed to mixed results, mostly negative). I asked her WHAT SHE LIKED!

"Oh...I enjoy what we are doing just fine..."

And this tells me what? ****** all! No positive feedback. No negative feedback.

So I'm flailing around doing the same old, same old...and continuing to ask questions...and get "Oh...it's fine..."

So, if "Honey" finds herself getting hot during Gothic bodice ripper novels, you would THINK that she might mention that she likes some Dom/Sub play...or that she likes costumes with low decollatages...or that she wants me to muscle up like Fabio (sorry to disappoint you 'Honey'...)

It's HER *HER* responsibility to communicate the POSITIVE desires to me...not leave me clueless. PARTICULARLY when I ask!

But let's get to the other end of the spectrum. "Honey" tried some bondage on me. I communicated that it didn't do anything for me (actually made me freak out, but I wanted to assuage her 'fragile female ego')

And I felt bad for not liking what she did...but it was aribabe's 'anal' to me...except that I actually, you know, TRIED it.

So what was the response? She shut down communicating things she wanted to try for a long time.

Now, I'm not saying MOST women are like this. I am citing a specific example.

But if the Jimmy Choo fits...


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If I discovered my wife was faking her orgasms sometimes. I think it would really throw me. It would have me always wondering whether she was faking it during sex.
> 
> I don't think that would be a great headspace to occupy.


I just do my best and don't ask. It's safer that way. But I'd appreciate the odd bit of positive feedback when I actually do something right.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

abitlost said:


> Absolutely NOT true.... they'll listen to sat nav


Note that it's a woman's voice. I wonder why that is


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

JCD said:


> Note that it's a woman's voice. I wonder why that is


You can get all sorts of voices including my fave Darth Vader


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Haha I said don't get me started.
> 
> It's when a too young woman with beautiful long hair gets it all chopped off so its more practical or some such nonsense. What can I say, I hate short hair on women.


Heh. I call it 'Mom Hair'.

It seems to happen around 34 or so. It's because the wife has stopped seeing herself as 'Wife' and sees herself as a no-nonsense 'mom'.

That's about the same time the makeup gets put away except for the acceptable minimum needed for polite society and skirts become something memorable.

Practicality isn't a four letter word...but it should be.

Than again, I'm a man and don't need to waste an hour with my hair every day, so talk is cheap. I just know what I like.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> MWF and Sunday he can come to me with his wee wee.
> 
> Other than that....meet Rosie Palm and her 10 fingers.


That is plausible and realistic.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> The thing is, everyone is biologically different so we can't set a "This is where the needs become wants" with sex. Some men don't have a major drive, so their _needs_ would be at least once a week. Some men have a crazy drive, so their _needs_ would be at least three times a week. Some women have crazy drives, so their _needs_ are five times a week.
> 
> Now, I highly doubt anyone needs sex three times every day. Once a day, however, _can_ be a need, so it's important that we don't count something out just because it doesn't make sense to us. _I_, personally, don't _need_ sex every day. But I definitely feel emotionally tense and awkward if hubs and I don't sexually connect at least twice a week. Husband needs it at least four times a week.


Here I disagree.

His Lordship does NOT need it every day. It's great if you can get it (I prefer every other day, but I'm twice his age) but when he was single, he wasnt' getting it NEARLY that often...unless he had a harem of women at the Country Club.

Likewise hubby doesn't NEED it...but it's a reasonable want.

The only reason he thinks he NEEDS it is poor impulse control (or just say '20 year old male'), her lack of self, and the history they have of her performing on demand.

Why wouldn't he expect her to continue to perform on demand? Every day...a NEED? That's pretty needy...


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Life is about balance and moderation. Once married and settled into life, no sex and daily sex are both extreme.

A LD partner who wants sex 1-2 a month will have problem unless he/she set that tone while dating with another LD. A HD partner who wants it 7 or more times a week will likely have to compromise.

It seems like the big killer here is once pregnant and then with kids, sex hits the backburner pretty often with women. Like their role has changed and there's no room for wife role. Then there's many other cases where husband is either not providing or too clingy or whatever to where his HD wife just doesn't want sex with him.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> pardon me sir, but where was it written anywhere in this thread, that men demand rafters, porn, tie down, anal or buckets of cum? _BUCKETS_ of cum? It's a struggle to fill a glass in one session, how are we going to fill a bucket?:scratchhead:


It has been raised BY WOMEN that most men want these things. Cups of cum were mentioned...Um...how long do I have to fill it? How big a cup is it? Can you wait a while?

Chandeliers were mentioned...as were rafters. Unfortunately, my house has low ceilings, so it hasn't been an issue with us...but I guess MOST men have high ceilings. I should note that my wife wants a chandelier, but I am uncertain how strong I'm going to have to reinforce the attachment point...not to mention not knowing that high ceilings were a marital aid.

I have been told MOST men want jackhammers, pile driving and other things. Of course I initially agreed because what man doesn't like tools, but then I realized these were sexual positions which look...strenuous. I'd probably snap my wife's neck if I tried them and she'd give me a ration of **** for even asking. Since I relish NORMAL sex enough to avoid it being cut off, I leave that to Jenna, Asia and Nikki. They get paid to do it. My wife doesn't.

I was told I demand anal. Well, of course I ASKED about it, but I defered when she said those Four Magic Words which snapped me out of THAT fantasy.

No, not "I want a divorce"

It was "You Should Go First." Oddly enough, now SHE is asking for it...after these self same women told me that COMMON SENSE dictates that no woman wants to try that. So now I worry about the mental health of my wife.

So many Truths and Assertions to go through!

So I am confused.

Me? I'd be happy for my wife to crawl up to me in the (kidless) house, drag my pants down and give me an unsolicited hummer.

Heck, I used to chase her around the room. Now she's chasing me! WFH? God has a sick sense of humor.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> MWF and Sunday he can come to me with his wee wee.
> 
> Other than that....meet Rosie Palm and her 10 fingers.


Glad JCD quoted this one because I missed it.

Yes I don't see why this would be a problem for most men even HD. three times a week on average (maybe a spontanious romp once in a while). Then if rubbing one out on occasion isn't a problem then that's pretty flexible. The problem is many LD women are of the opinion that rubbing one out is like cheating. So it ends up being controlling that they don't want sex and they get mad if you please yourself.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

JCD said:


> Here I disagree.
> 
> His Lordship does NOT need it every day. It's great if you can get it (I prefer every other day, but I'm twice his age) but when he was single, he wasnt' getting it NEARLY that often...unless he had a harem of women at the Country Club.
> 
> ...


Few things in life are actual, die-without-it "needs". 

We don't "need" food every day.
We don't "need" to bathe daily.
We don't "need" a house with heating and air conditioning.
We don't "need" to be kissed, held, hugged, or touched daily, or even weekly.
We don't "need" to be in love.
We don't "need" to have a career.

Many of our "needs" are really wants, and entitlements. 

So why is it, when it comes to sex, suddenly we work overtime to put down limits, while comfortably calling many of our other wants, "needs"?


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Few things in life are actual, die-without-it "needs".
> 
> We don't "need" food every day.
> We don't "need" to bathe daily.
> ...




Well...I am playing devil's advocate here, because as a man, it is anathma to break 'man code' and give women any additional excuses to cut back on the nookie (they are so clever coming up with their own...)

In the normal course of events, I have enough food for me and my family EVERY DAY. My eating my fill every day does not cost my family anything.

But...Hurricane Sandy, Nuclear bomb, Zombie Apocolypse...pick your poison. Suddenly ME eating my fill costs my son, my daughter, my wife SOMETHING.

Sex is not a solo sport. It costs time and effort from the associated person. 

So it puts it in the 'squishy' part of 'wants' and 'needs'. It's not enough of a need for ME that she should feel bad about turning me down...but it's not enough of an effort for her to justify cutting it off and it's enough of a NEED that cutting it off is pretty darned selfish.

Case in point. When the kids are out of the house, when I can finally sit down with my laptop and I get engaged in a forum, a game, writing something...whatever is totally mentally engaging me at the moment, THEN is the time my wife invariably chooses to get dolled up in something tight and lacy and demand servicing. (I use that term tongue in cheek)

So...I man up and get with the program. Because fulfilling the sexual desires of the spouse is a two way street.


Someone mentioned that it would be pretty demeaning and stupid to get a divorce because someone wasnt' getting enough sex. HOWEVER, I can also imagine a wife explaining to some friends why her STUPID husband divorced her over 'trivia' like sex, and some older married woman asking her point blank "What makes you so damned special that you're too good to give your husband a piece of p*ssy once in a while?"

The stupidity goes both ways.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> I'm sorry...but :rofl:
> 
> Your abuse has messed you up more than you know.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:

But it is one of my favorite obligations. 

I prefer it to cleaning under my refrigerator or laundry. Well...it's probably a tie with laundry. BUT that is because I have an unnatural obsession with mixing and matching scent boosters...I feel like you aren't supposed to sniff those things as much as I do.

I feel bad if I kiss him hello and he all but tackles me to be like "Actually, I just wanted a kiss, I'm not in the mood for that."

Or maybe I should ask him nicely for some non-sexual contact every now and again.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> LB uses exaggeration, selective truth-telling, hiding of events, deliberate misunderstanding and straw-man arguments to defend and explain herself. She also, I'm pretty sure, has told outright lies here and there.
> 
> She's been much better in this thread.


:scratchhead::scratchhead:

Um....thank you?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Glad JCD quoted this one because I missed it.
> 
> Yes I don't see why this would be a problem for most men even HD. three times a week on average (maybe a spontanious romp once in a while). Then if rubbing one out on occasion isn't a problem then that's pretty flexible. The problem is many LD women are of the opinion that rubbing one out is like cheating. So it ends up being controlling that they don't want sex and they get mad if you please yourself.


I don't think he's masturbated in months. Seriously, I don't know how he possibly could when he's been ****ing me every possible second we're together. Don't you guys get SORE? I do! Sometimes I have to use ice packs!

EDIT: Maybe the other day he did since I turned him down. A) I was on my period B) I was pissed at him for playing Call of ****ing Duty for 12 hours straight and leaving me to edit his paper because "You get better grades" (OF COURSE I DO I ACTUALLY STUDY) and C) I was genuinely trying to establish a boundary.

When I said "not tonight" he looked at me like I'd grown testicles. 

It was actually pretty funny.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Here I disagree.
> 
> His Lordship does NOT need it every day. It's great if you can get it (I prefer every other day, but I'm twice his age) but when he was single, he wasnt' getting it NEARLY that often...unless he had a harem of women at the Country Club.
> 
> ...


He was a virgin when we met. So he wasn't getting jack **** before me.



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I love you so much right now.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhh no. I know it's not the jeans that make my butt look big. It was the cake and ice cream I ate at my nephew's birthday party. :rofl::rofl:
> 
> And if a woman is gonna sh!t test her husband/boyfriend/SO like that... walk away... just... walk away....


No, just answer honestly. If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question I feel...



aribabe said:


> Ok,
> We'll have to agree to disagree that that was the BEST post I've made lol
> But thanks
> 
> ...


Personally, I think it was your best post ever.



LittleBird said:


> Historically, this is what happens when I say no (or my mother, as it may be, would say no):
> 
> Mom says no to dad. Dad 'leaves' her and buys his mistress a condo across the street. Dad and Mom keep living in the same house to "maintain" an image and ask me to pass messages across a dinner table.
> 
> ...


We were hard because we could see where this was heading. If I was overly harsh, I apologize, but truth be told, you weren't as open to input as you said you were either. 

No one is suggesting you should just say no all the time, but work out a compromise and talk to your fiancee and explain that you aren't as into sex as he is and you won't be having sex all the time, whenever he wants. You can even add in that helping around the house will help you get in the mood. Remember though that his level of help should only be what is fair (in other words, 50/50). No one should be doing chores just to get laid.



Cletus said:


> I'd like to hear how you would answer the question in my original post honestly in a way that serves any higher purpose than some arbitrary "truth at all costs" imperative.
> 
> Realize that you're talking to someone who has been convicted on more than one occasion for brutal honesty.


My question is, when can you look at your wife and not think she is beautiful? Until I feel out of love with my ex-wife, I thought she was beautiful no matter what, same thing now with my fiancee. Could be 4 in the morning, woke up from a sound sleep, no make up, hair is a mess and somewhat cranky and I still think she's the most beautiful women around. And yes, I am biased, but I should be, I'm engaged to her.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't think he's masturbated in months. Seriously, I don't know how he possibly could when he's been ****ing me every possible second we're together. Don't you guys get SORE? I do! Sometimes I have to use ice packs!
> 
> EDIT: Maybe the other day he did since I turned him down. A) I was on my period B) I was pissed at him for playing Call of ****ing Duty for 12 hours straight and leaving me to edit his paper because "You get better grades" (OF COURSE I DO I ACTUALLY STUDY) and C) I was genuinely trying to establish a boundary.
> 
> ...



Mention that your vag hurts and you are off limits.

He doesn't know he's hurting you and if he loves you as much as you say he does, if you TELL HIM your vag hurts, he should volunteer to take a rain check or an alternative.

Um...the more you write about him...the more issues I think the two of you have. I do not feel qualified to help you sort out the myriad power/money/sexual dynamics you two seem to have going on.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Mention that your vag hurts and you are off limits.
> 
> He doesn't know he's hurting you and if he loves you as much as you say he does, if you TELL HIM your vag hurts, he should volunteer to take a rain check or an alternative.
> 
> Um...the more you write about him...the more issues I think the two of you have. I do not feel qualified to help you sort out the myriad power/money/sexual dynamics you two seem to have going on.


We should be fine XD

Ironically, despite all of the crazy **** we talk about on a daily basis, we agreed that we wanted to get married in December the other night


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> We should be fine XD
> 
> Ironically, despite all of the crazy **** we talk about on a daily basis, we agreed that we wanted to get married in December the other night


Well...good luck. I mean that.

I did not marry a very compatible woman with me in many ways. But like two river rocks, we rubbed against each other and knocked off most of the rough spots so we generally fit together...finally.

But boy was that a hard way to do it!


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Well...good luck. I mean that.
> 
> I did not marry a very compatible woman with me in many ways. But like two river rocks, we rubbed against each other and knocked off most of the rough spots so we generally fit together...finally.
> 
> But boy was that a hard way to do it!


Thank you! I know how disastrous it sounds but we've lasted through childhood, adolescence and the beginnings of adulthood. Hopefully we can last the rest.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> I will even initiate a quickie because for me the enjoyment is feeling him and hearing him when he cums. There is no need to fake it, I simply tell him in a sexy voice that I want to feel him cum inside me, hearing that brings him to O in a very short time. That is the truth, I do want to feel that, no lies or deceit needed.
> 
> It is very possible that you are going to slowly erode your relationship with the lies and faking.


Nevermind sex, if my fiancee said that in a text message I'd O in a short time too. That's hot.



LittleBird said:


> This is what I wanna know! IMO sex is a considered a need to most people but there has got to be a quantity limit on the word need!
> 
> My fiancé would love to tell me he "needs" daily sex and frankly, I call bull****! :rofl:


How frequently someone needs sex is dependant on the person. Daily seems unlikely, but what is likely? once a week. Once a month? 4x a week? No one knows what they need but themselves.



LittleBird said:


> Honestly, I think the every day person should look in the mirror and and go "Do I really need sex everyday?"


And the person who is with someone who feels they NEED sex daily should look in a mirror and ask themselves "is this the right person for me? Do I really NEED to marry this person?


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If some judge told me to put out or get out, I'd sue him so fast he wouldn't even have time to bang his gavel.
> 
> America...a country where people are allowed to be *******s.


The poster said he's not from a western country, so we aren't talking about America. And if that was the law in that country, and you were married in that country, then that would be the law. I'm not going to ebate if it's fair or not, it's the law.



LittleBird said:


> If there isn't any mutual desire, there is no intimacy, it's the same thing as just masturbating into a vagina or onto a penis.
> 
> If someone is interested in that, it really just proves that it's not about the intimacy at all.


As someone who lived off duty/pity sex for years, no, it's not like masturbating into a vagina. It's the one moment you get to feel close to your partner, even if you know she doesn't feel close to you at all. It's at least halfway to what you are seeking.

Also, I have never successfully masturbated while using both of my hands to grab two breasts.



LittleBird said:


> MWF and Sunday he can come to me with his wee wee.
> 
> Other than that....meet Rosie Palm and her 10 fingers.


While I don't disagree that four times a week is a solid amount of sex, to tell him that it will be this way or to ****ing bad is the wrong way to send your message. Essentially you are cuting his amount back by almost 50%. To do that and then carry an attitude of "If you don't like it, here's a bottle of Jergen's and a nude pic of me. Have fun" isn't fair. At least talk to him and hear him out as well.



LittleBird said:


> 00
> 
> Unless he sat his ass on a rock in the middle of winter for 3 days straight to get one ****ing shot for some pompous Italian swimsuit company, the answer better be **** no.
> 
> ...


If you took every penny you made during the years you were married and put it in a bank account some place, and never touched it, you bet he would be able to take half. Spliting assets is splitting assets. Money is an asset. Just like if he sat and worked for three days digging a ditch or whatever he does and earned say $1,000 for doing so, you'd be entitled to $500. You split your assets.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> 00
> 
> Unless he sat his ass on a rock in the middle of winter for 3 days straight to get one ****ing shot for some pompous Italian swimsuit company, the answer better be **** no.
> 
> ...


Welcome to Man's world...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Welcome to Man's world...


Oh well you better believe I divorce his ass, I'm taking half of that 
$$$$$ and buying myself a small island.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Oh. well. The assets.
> 
> In my country's law, there is a clear separation between what is asset that should be divided after a divorce, and what is not. (And the division is always by half, equal portions btw). Clan assets which are brought in before marriage are not considered as asset that should be divided. That is why, in my country, it is very common to have married couples living in a house belonged to the husband's (or the wife's) clan. In case of divorce, one of the divorcee simply move out of the house and return to her/his original clan.
> 
> ...


*Way *off-topic, but since you asked, and in case anyone's interested:

It depends on what state of the United States is your residence. This isn't my area, but I know the rules in my home state of California, which is one of nine states that is a community property state. (The others are Arizona, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington, and Wisconsin).

In California (and I assume the rules are similar in the other community property states), EVERYTHING--every single dime--of earnings *from work* by either spouse *during the marriage *is the property of the "community." So in a divorce, that income and proceeds of that income (house, investments, etc. purchased with community earnings) is split 50-50 between spouses. Using your LB hypothetical (sorry LB!), if she married and moved to California, yes, thereafter her spouse would be entitled to 50% of her modeling earnings, and 50% of her earnings as a lawyer.

However, income from property that was separate property at the time of marriage remains separate property, IF IT IS NOT COMMINGLED with community property to such an extent its separate origin can no longer be traced. It sounds like this is similar to what you described as "clan assets" in your country.

In addition, inheritances start as separate property when received. So to take LB as an example again (again I apologize), if she and her fiance married and moved to California, and he inherited a fortune, that inheritance would be 100% his. If its separate nature were maintained--no community earnings are used to maintain the separate property, and income from the separate property is segregated into an account only in his name--then it remains his separate property upon divorce.

If community earnings and separate income are commingled, or community earnings are used to maintain or pay for a separate asset, then it becomes an accounting issue and experts are usually engaged to figure it out.

However, payment of spousal support and child support after a divorce are entirely different and complex issues. One spouse can be required to make periodic payments to the other to maintain the established standard of living for the former spouse and children.

So the lawyers still get involved and it still can turn contentious. Long and the short: don't get divorced if you can help it! Or enter an agreement with your spouse on all these issues, which a court should enforce (unless there was duress).

End of boring legal discussion, thank goodness. Back to sex in marriage.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I understand this line of thinking.
> 
> But when he wants to have sex with me every single day, that honestly says to me "I just want to root anything in sight."
> 
> That doesn't make me feel particularly special. No conversation, no acts of service- just sex. So since none of the other boxes are checked, it does start to feel like "just sex" and I get irritated with his immaturity in dealing with sex.


It doesn't mean he wants to do anyone within sight. It means he wants to do you. 

You have to enforce that he does what makes you feel special, and you do this by giving him a consequence. Most people's consequence would be to threaten to leave if their needs aren't met.



LittleBird said:


> It's my fault. I WANTED to wait until marriage but one fateful drunk night....ugh. Opened a damn Pandora's Box.


Frankly, you should be glad you had sex before marriage. Would have rather waited until marriage to find out you have this problem you are facing?



abitlost said:


> It isn't your fault how he acts (he's 20 not 5), but it is up to you how you respond.


Sorry, but it partly is her fault. If she hates being woken up for sex, and he wakes her up for sex, and then instead of saying "Sorry, but I'm tired and going abck to sleep" she gives in and gives him sex, she's at fault here too. She's reenforcing his behaviour.

It's like teaching a dog to chase after a car and then saying it not your fault when the dog gets hit.



LittleBird said:


> I'm still wrapping my head around this but I'm fairly sure that VERY FEW PEOPLE would honestly defend daily sex as a legitimate, relationship make or breaking need.
> 
> If you will only stay married to someone if daily sex is happening, you shouldn't be married. IMO.
> 
> ...


First, if you don't think someone would break up, or divorce, over just sex, you may want to do a lot more reading on this board.

Secondly, even if everything is great except for sex, that doesn't mean a break up won't happen. I'll give you and example.

My fiancee is terrified of ants. Literally has a panic attack and freaks out if she sees them at times. It's a phobia.

Now I have two options with that. I can either be the kind, supportive guy and go out and spend what amounts to about 1-2 hours each summer helping her spray the yard for ants, check for ant hills, and go buy some stuff like Raid to kill them. Or I can be unsupportive and tell her it's her problem, she can deal with it herself and I'm not going to bother worrying about that issue because I have more important things to do. 

For her, keeping ants away from her is a NEED. Is it really a need, in the same sense as food or water? No, but it is a need for her. Likewise, she needs me to support her in this, and if I can't be supportive, this relationship won't work.

I will never suggest that her fear isn't a need. 

Unlike ant phobias though, sex is an issue in EVERY relationship. It's pretty hard to say that beaking up over an ant phobia is ok, but not over sex.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I'm sorry but if you are willing to END A MARRIAGE over non-daily sex, that's pretty much the definition of shallow.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Maybe I come from some romantic dimension where marriage is about more than sex.


While what you're saying is technically true, it's also false. Is marriage about _more_ than sex? Yes. People marry for all kinds of reasons, and there are all kinds of facets which make marriage work. _However_, while marriage is _about more_ than sex, marriage _is still_ about sex. Marriage is about trust, honesty, love, romance, passion, respect...and when sex dissipates, or when one spouse is sexually unfulfilled, they don't feel that love; they don't feel the trust, honest, romance, passion or respect. So, while marriage is about more than sex, all of those other things are centered around sex.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> It doesn't mean he wants to do anyone within sight. It means he wants to do you.
> 
> You have to enforce that he does what makes you feel special, and you do this by giving him a consequence. Most people's consequence would be to threaten to leave if their needs aren't met.
> 
> ...


A marriage can end over being sexless, yes.

But for ****'s sake, every day is not sexless.

It's the polar opposite of sexless.

If someone wanted to divorce me over sex several times a week, I'd show him the door on a red carpet b/c he clearly doesn't love or respect me as a human being.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> He wants daily sex but he wants ME more. Which is the way it should be. Otherwise he can get daily sex from a hooker.


But here's the thing: sex and YOU go hand in hand. He can't be sexually faithful to you and get his sexual needs met outside of the relationship at the same time. And again, marital sex is NOT about the physical. It's about the emotional intimacy. Biologically men and women were both designed to orgasm and have sex with each other, so this is a biological need that both genders have. But beyond the physical, and beyond the desire to procreate, sex is absolutely the strongest expression of love, respect and trust that a couple could give each other. Moreover, the intimacy involved brings the two together. When a couple commits to marriage, it's assumed that both will commit to meeting that biological, relational and emotional need.

You and sex can not be separated. Having _sex_ with _you_ is what will fulfill him, not sex with a hooker. And having sex daily absolutely _can_ be a need for people. Some people are able to compromise and take three or four times a week. But others can't, and that doesn't make them shallow. It means they have a stronger sexual drive, and they definitely need someone who is close to or matches that drive.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> But here's the thing: sex and YOU go hand in hand. He can't be sexually faithful to you and get his sexual needs met outside of the relationship at the same time. And again, marital sex is NOT about the physical. It's about the emotional intimacy. Biologically men and women were both designed to orgasm and have sex with each other, so this is a biological need that both genders have. But beyond the physical, and beyond the desire to procreate, sex is absolutely the strongest expression of love, respect and trust that a couple could give each other. Moreover, the intimacy involved brings the two together. When a couple commits to marriage, it's assumed that both will commit to meeting that biological, relational and emotional need.
> 
> You and sex can not be separated. Having _sex_ with _you_ is what will fulfill him, not sex with a hooker. And having sex daily absolutely _can_ be a need for people. Some people are able to compromise and take three or four times a week. But others can't, and that doesn't make them shallow. It means they have a stronger sexual drive, and they definitely need someone who is close to or matches that drive.


Sex drive = the PHYSICAL desire for sex and an orgasm that most people have since they're 13 year old boys in gym class. 

Marital sex= intimacy.

This is where I see a disconnect. I don't mind fulfilling the orgasm want and I don't mind fulfilling the intimacy need.

I am willing to DO both. But one of them is not a daily need that should aways be MY responsibility. Can you guess which one?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> That is reasonable. I see no issue with that.
> 
> But "I only love you if we are having sex every day" is....there is is so much wrong with that.


It's so much more than that, though. It's not about, "I won't love you anymore if you don't do me every day"; it's about, "I won't feel that you love me if we don't have sex every day". 

LB, your personal sexual needs aren't wrong. No one here is trying to make you feel like it is. The point being made is that, sometimes, the HD person really can't take less than once a day. Personally, I can't wrap my head around that either. But I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say it's impossible, or that that person is shallow. Any more than the person who only needs sex once a month is shallow; it's just essential that they find someone they're sexually compatible with.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> It's so much more than that, though. It's not about, "I won't love you anymore if you don't do me every day"; it's about, "I won't feel that you love me if we don't have sex every day".
> 
> LB, your personal sexual needs aren't wrong. No one here is trying to make you feel like it is. The point being made is that, sometimes, the HD person really can't take less than once a day. Personally, I can't wrap my head around that either. But I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say it's impossible, or that that person is shallow. Any more than the person who only needs sex once a month is shallow; it's just essential that they find someone they're sexually compatible with.


I am really, REALLY trying to view sex as an emotional need.

Honestly, the first time I heard that I burst out laughing. That sounds like a grand conspiracy so people can just **** more often.

Now, I know that isn't true. I see that more now.

But the sex every day as an emotional need still sounds like bull**** to me. Nothing wrong with WANTING sex everyday. But claiming to *need* it? Like do or die need? That sounds like sex addiction to me and it doesn't seem to have a thing to do with emotions are anything else.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> If you leave someone over that, it's basically a giant "all you are good for is sex" slap in the face.
> 
> Everything else is great but I'm only getting sex 5 times a week so everything I said in my vow is null and void.
> 
> :scratchhead:


I think the disconnect is that, for you, sex hasn't been about mutual satisfaction. It's been about getting your fiance to leave you alone for a few hours. Please understand that this isn't the norm. I've heard of couple going twice a day every day for years, and having a great relationship. But that's the point: they have a great relationship. Yours doesn't sound like a good relationship. Please keep that in mind. 

Also bear in mind that sex is about so much more than a physical release. Sex is about expressing love. It's hard to express love to HD person without sex. For them, the greatest sign of love and affection _is_ sex. Without having their sexual needs met, they will not feel loved. And for a lower drive person, that doesn't, and likely won't, make sense. "I'm trying and giving you more than I'm comfortable with; isn't that enough?" When the sad truth is...no. It's not. And the issue isn't with the HD or the LD, it's with the fact that two people who weren't compatible decided to marry.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Now, maybe. In 10, 20 years? No way.


^This. 

I know, LB, that it seems like we're saying you're not good enough for your fiance, but I promise that's not the case. As a person, you seem incredibly loving and self-sacrificing. But you do seem to be incompatible with your fiance, and when a relationship has spiraled to where you are, with you giving sex just to make him happy, things are already incredibly unhealthy for both people involved. While I think that much of your issues regarding sex have come from your past, I do not think that you and your fiance are sexually compatible. 

Only you and him can decide what is the best for you...but I think you both need to be honest and open about what you think your sexual needs are. That way you know.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I don't want to go the gym every day but I do it cause it keeps my body in shape.
> 
> I don't want to clean but I do it because a clean house is more relaxing.
> 
> I don't need sex. I don't like it but I don't hate it. If he wants it he can have it. I'm not about to end a relationship over sex and neither is he, since it's not something ridiculous like "once a year" or whatever.


LB, I'm a bit confused. I thought you were trying to like it? Is that out the window now, or are you still communicating with him about what you'd like to experience in the bedroom?


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> There is no clause in the wedding vow that says I will only stick by me if you have sex with me on a daily basis.
> 
> I'm sorry but I think to get divorced over sex a few times a week is BLATANT disrespect to the entire idea of marriage.


once again, you are assessing his needs as disrespectful. What if he said that he didn't feel like he needed to put away money for the childrens education and that if they wanted to go to university they can figure it out, or if he felt that they shouldn't get anythghing but the bsics, like food, water and shelter? I mean that's all you say you need, so what if he said he felt a need to only give the children the same? Anything above that wasn't a need of his? Would you not marry him for not paying for their future education beyond grade 12 or for not allowing them to enroll in soccer due to the cost?

Hate to tell you, but there are a lot of parent who actually do believe this, and many children have to put themselves through university without their parents help and who have to do without soccer and other fun because mom and dad can't/won't pay for it. Is it ok to divorce him, or break up with him, over that?

If so, that's YOUR need. His NEED is sex. His need is important to him like yours is importnat to you. You need to accept that and deal with it accordingly, to what you feel is best for you.



LittleBird said:


> If I let him, my fiancé would be on top of me ALL DAY.
> 
> I do not feel guilty about telling him to get off me the fourth time he approaches me for sex in a day.
> 
> ...


I give my fiancee hugs often. If I didn't, she'd get upset and maybe even eventually leave me if I refused to hug her, or even turned her down on a regular basis. Why? Because it's something she needs. It's her way of expressing love and desire for me. Sex is a way for him to express desire to you. If you think he may not leave over a decrease in sex, even down from once a day, you may end up getting a reality check in the mail in an envelope entitled "Divorce Papers enclosed"



john_lord_b3 said:


> pardon me sir, but where was it written anywhere in this thread, that men demand rafters, porn, tie down, anal or buckets of cum? _BUCKETS_ of cum? It's a struggle to fill a glass in one session, how are we going to fill a bucket?:scratchhead:


By multiple sessions obviously :smthumbup:



JCD said:


> Here I disagree.
> 
> His Lordship does NOT need it every day. It's great if you can get it (I prefer every other day, but I'm twice his age) but when he was single, he wasnt' getting it NEARLY that often...unless he had a harem of women at the Country Club.
> 
> ...


Once again, it may not make sense to you, me, or others, but if he NEEDS sex that often, only he would know. To not give it that often is just calling his bluff, and there's always the chance he's not bluffing.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, I'm a bit confused. I thought you were trying to like it? Is that out the window now, or are you still communicating with him about what you'd like to experience in the bedroom?


I am *trying* to like it. Him not whining like a toddler for one, is a start. 

But I can't just not have sex with him again until I enjoy it.

I promised him a few times a week and I have to stick to that regimen, just like I sticky to my work out regimen.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> once again, you are assessing his needs as disrespectful. What if he said that he didn't feel like he needed to put away money for the childrens education and that if they wanted to go to university they can figure it out, or if he felt that they shouldn't get anythghing but the bsics, like food, water and shelter? I mean that's all you say you need, so what if he said he felt a need to only give the children the same? Anything above that wasn't a need of his? Would you not marry him for not paying for their future education beyond grade 12 or for not allowing them to enroll in soccer due to the cost?
> 
> Hate to tell you, but there are a lot of parent who actually do believe this, and many children have to put themselves through university without their parents help and who have to do without soccer and other fun because mom and dad can't/won't pay for it. Is it ok to divorce him, or break up with him, over that?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but bring the children vs sex argument into a court of law and see how well THAT plays out. 

There is NO ****ing comparison between taking care of defenseless kids and telling him to meet his right hand a few times a week.

I don't buy it. Sorry, I think it's crap and I don't buy it. For that matter, fine, I NEED a new diamond necklace every day, even if he has to work a million hours a week and be miserable his whole life to give that to me.

But hell, I need it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

JCD said:


> <wipes away tears of joy and jealousy>
> 
> God Bless you, Created2Write. God Bless you.
> 
> ...



Oh, thank you.  One thing this thread has reminded me of: I love and want my husband. I wish I had never been on BC. It messed up my sex drive a lot. I used to be a vixen; I'd initiate all the time, and lately, I don't even think about sex. 

It sucks. But a few of the posts in this thread have reminded me of my beliefs, and tonight I intend on giving my husband a wild ride after the gym. Besides, nothing is sexier to me then seeing my husband sweat buckets as he lifts weights, and then showering together afterward.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> When I said "not tonight" he looked at me like I'd grown testicles.
> 
> It was actually pretty funny.


Maybe because you did?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> pardon me sir, but where was it written anywhere in this thread, that men demand rafters, porn, tie down, anal or buckets of cum? _BUCKETS_ of cum? It's a struggle to fill a glass in one session, how are we going to fill a bucket?:scratchhead:


Pages and pages and pages ago a specific poster, who at the moment will remain nameless, posted that men have extreme expectations in bed. Actually, it was a few female posters who said those things, not just one.

It was more towards the beginning of the thread.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

JCD said:


> Here I disagree.
> 
> His Lordship does NOT need it every day. It's great if you can get it (I prefer every other day, but I'm twice his age) but when he was single, he wasnt' getting it NEARLY that often...unless he had a harem of women at the Country Club.
> 
> ...


I disagree. There are things that I _need_ every single day from my husband. Non-sexual physical affection is something I absolutely need every day or I do not feel loved. If my husband went one day without showing me any affection, I would feel like my heart was suffocating. 

If a person can need affection every day, a person absolutely can need sex every day. Emotionally, I know my husband is the most fulfilled when he gets it every day. And I want to work back up to that. He doesn't whine or complain when he doesn't get it, but I know it's something he needs emotionally to be the happiest that he can be in this relationship.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm sorry but bring the children vs sex argument into a court of law and see how well THAT plays out.
> 
> There is NO ****ing comparison between taking care of defenseless kids and telling him to meet his right hand a few times a week.
> 
> ...


No, LB, that wasn't what he said at all. He said the "EXTRAS". Like saving money for their college education... that isn't required. It is a choice the parents make. He is talking about the extracurricular activities such as sports and clubs. Again, not necessities. He isn't talking about not providing food, clothing, shelter... the absolute necessities. And he certainly didn't say anything about taking away basic necessities. He put that in because some place such a high importance on such things when discussing marriage. Others place high importance on sex. That was the point he was making. It would be just as disrespectful to talk down about those needs/wants as it is to be disrespectful of someone's need (or want, if you prefer) for sex.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

JCD said:


> It has been raised BY WOMEN that most men want these things. Cups of cum were mentioned...Um...how long do I have to fill it? How big a cup is it? Can you wait a while?


hah??!?!? _MOST MEN_ want such things? That would be a physical impossibility. As I mentioned, even when I was young I cannot fill a cup easily. Why should women bring up such impossibilities? 



> Chandeliers were mentioned...as were rafters. Unfortunately, my house has low ceilings, so it hasn't been an issue with us...but I guess MOST men have high ceilings. I should note that my wife wants a chandelier, but I am uncertain how strong I'm going to have to reinforce the attachment point...not to mention not knowing that high ceilings were a marital aid.


What has home architecture to do with sex in married life? I fail to see the connections. Maybe because English is not my first language, or I missed all the cultural connections attached to chandeliers.



> I have been told MOST men want jackhammers, pile driving and other things. Of course I initially agreed because what man doesn't like tools, but then I realized these were sexual positions which look...strenuous. I'd probably snap my wife's neck if I tried them and she'd give me a ration of **** for even asking. Since I relish NORMAL sex enough to avoid it being cut off, I leave that to Jenna, Asia and Nikki. They get paid to do it. My wife doesn't.


A quick tour to google dot com revealed that the three women you mentioned above are professional adult erotica performers, and very highly paid. So I certainly understand that what they do are more highly advanced and highly trained than normal women does. That's why those three are paid highly. But one should not confuse normal sex acts between couples with professional sex acts by trained professionals. It's like comparing my cooking with the cooking of a highly-trained professional chef from France. Certainly what Monsieur Chef cooked are more advanced than mine. But what I cooked, I ate, and it felt good.

I don't really understand the "piledriver" comment. Piledriver is a technique in professional wrestling, for driving an opponent head and back to the canvas. I fail to see the connection with having sex with wife. I certainly will not treat wife that way. I am not Hulk Hogan.



> I was told I demand anal. Well, of course I ASKED about it, but I defered when she said those Four Magic Words which snapped me out of THAT fantasy.
> 
> No, not "I want a divorce"
> 
> ...


so you are a Westerner and still got confused. Imagine how confused I am as an Asian reading all this.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Maybe because you did?


When I was a little girl and I went for a hug more than a few times I day I got "Seriously? Grow up. Don't be so needy."

Harsh? Yes. Did I ****ing *die*? 

Um...no. I grew up and I went to law school. 

If my fiancé really insisted he NEEDED daily sex in order to be happy, I'd give him a blanket and a bottle and tell him to get out of my apartment. I'd also direct him to a therapist to figure out why he can't be happy without sex. That's not healthy. 

Now, if he WANTS it, I will work to do that for him. That's the difference with me. I asked him. He goes, "It'd be great but like I'd leave you over that? That's ****ing stupid."

In that moment I wanted to have sex with him just cause 

As adults...it's a little bit immature to say we need, need, need everyday or else...tantrum. 

Nothing wrong with wanting things, nothing wrong with getting things. But to say you NEED something ALL the time and that your partner is somehow neglecting you if they don't give it up sounds like guilt tactics to me.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> No, LB, that wasn't what he said at all. He said the "EXTRAS". Like saving money for their college education... that isn't required. It is a choice the parents make. He is talking about the extracurricular activities such as sports and clubs. Again, not necessities. He isn't talking about not providing food, clothing, shelter... the absolute necessities. And he certainly didn't say anything about taking away basic necessities. He put that in because some place such a high importance on such things when discussing marriage. Others place high importance on sex. That was the point he was making. It would be just as disrespectful to talk down about those needs/wants as it is to be disrespectful of someone's need (or want, if you prefer) for sex.


Well, OK. This is fair...


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Sex drive = the PHYSICAL desire for sex and an orgasm that most people have since they're 13 year old boys in gym class.
> 
> Marital sex= intimacy.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying you should have sex every day. Only the individual can decide what is or isn't a sexual need for themselves. I'm only concerned that your original efforts to try and enjoy sex physically are going backwards with this mentality about sex _still_ being all about him, and not all about _both of you_. And, by the way, putting up frequency boundaries is NOT the same as trying to make sex mutually satisfying. It's a start, but it is nowhere near enough, and from the last few pages of posts, I'm sensing that you don't really plan on, or want to, enjoy sex.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Oh well you better believe I divorce his ass, I'm taking half of that
> $$$$$ and buying myself a small island.


Once again, just money acquired DURING the marriage, not what he had coming into it.

If he's playing COD and you're a model and a lawyer, guess which one is more likely to lose out during a divorce?



LittleBird said:


> A marriage can end over being sexless, yes.
> 
> But for ****'s sake, every day is not sexless.
> 
> ...


And clearly you don't get it. I'm not defending someone who says they have a need for sex once a week, twice a week, daily or even 23546 times a day. Theya re the only one who knows what they need, and you have to decide if you can fulfill that need. That's it. It's that simple.



LittleBird said:


> Sex drive = the PHYSICAL desire for sex and an orgasm that most people have since they're 13 year old boys in gym class.
> 
> Marital sex= intimacy.
> 
> ...


If you think the intimacy starts at marriage, you're wrong. 

And again, who says it is NOT a daily need? It isn't a daily need for you, or me, or many others. But you aren't marrying you, or me, or may others. Youa re marrying your fiancee, and if he says it's a daily need, then who are you to know otherwise? You have to decide if you can meet that need or not. 



LittleBird said:


> I am really, REALLY trying to view sex as an emotional need.
> 
> Honestly, the first time I heard that I burst out laughing. That sounds like a grand conspiracy so people can just **** more often.
> 
> ...


Two weeks ago you'd have called sex as an emotional need at all as BS. But you don't now. So why is it so hard to further drop your mental block and accept that sex on a daily basis may be a need for some people? 

Also, addictions are needs, even if they are unhealthy needs. Ask an alcoholic how far they would go to get a bottle if they were broke and umemployed, or what a crack addict would do to get another hit. People don't end up on the street selling their body for crack and meth because they feel like they WANT it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I am really, REALLY trying to view sex as an emotional need.
> 
> Honestly, the first time I heard that I burst out laughing. That sounds like a grand conspiracy so people can just **** more often.
> 
> ...


Again, it's not about the individual dying if they don't have sex every day. No one on this earth will die if they don't have sex every day. No one on this earth will die if they never have sex again for as long as they live. It's not about that. 

It's about the atmosphere of the marriage. For someone who has an incredibly HD, they may not consistently feel loved without sex every day. Maybe your fiance is one who will be open to compromise. Many HD people are. But some aren't, which is the point being made. And it's not sexual addiction. 

Do I have some kind of emotional addiction because I need admiration and affection from my husband every day? No. If, tomorrow, I was no longer married, I wouldn't go through emotional withdraws or anything. But, as a wife, there are emotional things I need daily for me to feel loved. For many HD people, it's the same with sex. People who are addicted to sex do anything and everything they can to get a physical release. It is not even remotely the same thing as needing _your *spouse*_ sexually every day.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> The poster said he's not from a western country, so we aren't talking about America. And if that was the law in that country, and you were married in that country, then that would be the law. I'm not going to ebate if it's fair or not, it's the law.


:smthumbup:



> If you took every penny you made during the years you were married and put it in a bank account some place, and never touched it, you bet he would be able to take half. Spliting assets is splitting assets. Money is an asset. Just like if he sat and worked for three days digging a ditch or whatever he does and earned say $1,000 for doing so, you'd be entitled to $500. You split your assets.


Aha, here our laws are similar with each other. That's why there is an expression in our country "Pengki Nae Ka Bale" (a broom climbed the bed) when a poor man from lower-clan married a rich woman from higher-clan, implying a total loss for the higher-clan, because, in case of divorce, the rich woman must share her personal assets obtained during marriage with the poorer man. That's why in my country, higher-clan parents are extremely reluctant to let lower-clan men to marry their daughters.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm sorry but bring the children vs sex argument into a court of law and see how well THAT plays out.
> 
> There is NO ****ing comparison between taking care of defenseless kids and telling him to meet his right hand a few times a week.
> 
> ...


Maricha explained what I was saying very well, thanks Maricha.

As well, you wouldn't have anything to drag into court. As a soon to be lawyer, I'd think you'd know this. Bring up to a judge that your ex-husband is a jerk or whatever because he wouldn't pay for little Suzy's violin lessons and he'd toss you out on your ass the same as he would if you claimed he was an ass for not having sex with you.

Unless a spouse is beating the other, or depreiving them of food or water, no judge will listen to those issues.

The thing that you seem to be unable -or unwilling- to understand is that the reason to divorce doesn't have to make sense to you, me, a judge or anyone else. it only needs to make sense to your partner in order for him to leave.



LittleBird said:


> When I was a little girl and I went for a hug more than a few times I day I got "Seriously? Grow up. Don't be so needy."
> 
> Harsh? Yes. Did I ****ing *die*?
> 
> ...


I hope you aren't thinking I'm talking only about your fiancee, or even directly about him, because I'm not. What your finacee needs is up to him, I was using the daily sex needs as a discussion point, not a direct reference to him.

I will ask this question though, since you question whether daily sex is healthy or not. If you feel like you need sex daily, and you find someone who also feels like they need sex daily, how is that unhealthy?


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Aha, here our laws are similar with each other. That's why there is an expression in our country "Pengki Nae Ka Bale" (a broom climbed the bed) when a poor man from lower-clan married a rich woman from higher-clan, implying a total loss for the higher-clan, because, in case of divorce, the rich woman must share her personal assets obtained during marriage with the poorer man. That's why in my country, higher-clan parents are extremely reluctant to let lower-clan men to marry their daughters.


Is it the same if a lower-clan woman marries a higher-clan man?



LittleBird said:


> And this is why my fiancés parents HATE me. Because he is an only child and gets EVERYTHING, meaning I also get HALF of that if we split.
> 
> That's enough to make them roll over and die.
> 
> ...


As others have said, inheritance (300-year-old money) doesn't always follow the same rules and can be protected from being divided during a divorce. And rightfully so.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Maricha explained what I was saying very well, thanks Maricha.
> 
> As well, you wouldn't have anything to drag into court. As a soon to be lawyer, I'd think you'd know this. Bring up to a judge that your ex-husband is a jerk or whatever because he wouldn't pay for little Suzy's violin lessons and he'd toss you out on your ass the same as he would if you claimed he was an ass for not having sex with you.
> 
> ...


This concept is so hard for me because I don't like the concept of being DEPENDENT on any one thing.

Needing sex/needing an endorphin release every day....is dangerously close to an addiction for my liking.

That's all.

If both people want to do it, bombs away. But if one person insists that they need it and the other person MUST do it or it's neglect/abuse, that is manipulative and I don't like it.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Is it the same if a lower-clan woman marries a higher-clan man?
> 
> 
> 
> As others have said, inheritance (300-year-old money) doesn't always follow the same rules and can be protected from being divided during a divorce. And rightfully so.


There will be no pre-nup. They literally nearly ****ted themselves when he refused to let them draw one up.



They said something about Paul McCartney.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

:iagree:


LittleBird said:


> And this is why my fiancés parents HATE me. Because he is an only child and gets EVERYTHING, meaning I also get HALF of that if we split.
> 
> That's enough to make them roll over and die.
> 
> ...


You might want to check that. Where I live, inheritance money is not counted in a split of marital assets unless it has been spent on assets during the marriage. If it's just a lump sum, or property or shares etc? Nope.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> There will be no pre-nup. They literally nearly ****ted themselves when he refused to let them draw one up.
> 
> 
> 
> They said something about Paul McCartney.


Right. I thought they thought you'd split up anyway?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Right. I thought they thought you'd split up anyway?


This conversation was a while ago, when we first told them we wanted to get married.

To be fair, we were like 18. I woulda freaked too.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> *Way *off-topic, but since you asked, and in case anyone's interested:


Many thanks for sharing your tips about the law in your land.



> It depends on what state of the United States is your residence. This isn't my area, but I know the rules in my home state of California, which is one of nine states that is a community property state. (The others are Arizona, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington, and Wisconsin).
> 
> In California (and I assume the rules are similar in the other community property states), EVERYTHING--every single dime--of earnings *from work* by either spouse *during the marriage *is the property of the "community." So in a divorce, that income and proceeds of that income (house, investments, etc. purchased with community earnings) is split 50-50 between spouses. Using your LB hypothetical (sorry LB!), if she married and moved to California, yes, thereafter her spouse would be entitled to 50% of her modeling earnings, and 50% of her earnings as a lawyer.


Ahh, similar to the laws of my country. Good news for the poorer-income spouse. Bad news for the higher-income spouse.. 



> However, income from property that was separate property at the time of marriage remains separate property, IF IT IS NOT COMMINGLED with community property to such an extent its separate origin can no longer be traced. It sounds like this is similar to what you described as "clan assets" in your country.
> 
> In addition, inheritances start as separate property when received. So to take LB as an example again (again I apologize), if she and her fiance married and moved to California, and he inherited a fortune, that inheritance would be 100% his. If its separate nature were maintained--no community earnings are used to maintain the separate property, and income from the separate property is segregated into an account only in his name--then it remains his separate property upon divorce.


So very similar! Is this law created to discourage lower-clan people to marry higher-clan people with the hope of getting a piece of the inheritance?



> If community earnings and separate income are commingled, or community earnings are used to maintain or pay for a separate asset, then it becomes an accounting issue and experts are usually engaged to figure it out.


I could imagine that!



> However, payment of spousal support and child support after a divorce are entirely different and complex issues. One spouse can be required to make periodic payments to the other to maintain the established standard of living for the former spouse and children.


Now this is where our customs may differ. In my country, MOST of the times, it's the wife who win child custody. Even if the husband is richer or his clan is richer, the Hakam (judge) usually still give child custody to the wife. Especially if her clan elder (usually her father or brother, or an elder uncle) put in writing that the clan wants the children. In certain area in our country it is almost impossible for the husband's side to win child custody, due to strong custom of favoring the wife side's clan.

Much of the legal battle usually revolves around how much money shall the former husband give to former wife for child support. Usually the wife's clan demanded very ridiculous amount first, then the husband give an equally ridiculous counter-proposal, then bargain, bargain, bargain, till the Hakam gets bored and decide upon an amount.



> So the lawyers still get involved and it still can turn contentious. Long and the short: don't get divorced if you can help it! Or enter an agreement with your spouse on all these issues, which a court should enforce (unless there was duress).
> 
> End of boring legal discussion, thank goodness. Back to sex in marriage.


I agree Mr. Jahartur, that's why pre-nuptial agreement are very important, ESPECIALLY if there are certain differences between the couples, whether it be differences in clan social status, or differences in sexual drive. In my country, it is called "kafa'ah", which means "it is advisable that the man and the woman be equal in everything before marriage". If the marriage is not kafa'ah, not equal in everything, then it could become troublesome later.

:smthumbup: many many thanks for your elucidation! Now let's get back to sex talks


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> But here's the thing: sex and YOU go hand in hand. He can't be sexually faithful to you and get his sexual needs met outside of the relationship at the same time. And again, marital sex is NOT about the physical. It's about the emotional intimacy. Biologically men and women were both designed to orgasm and have sex with each other, so this is a biological need that both genders have. But beyond the physical, and beyond the desire to procreate, sex is absolutely the strongest expression of love, respect and trust that a couple could give each other. Moreover, the intimacy involved brings the two together. When a couple commits to marriage, it's assumed that both will commit to meeting that biological, relational and emotional need.
> 
> You and sex can not be separated. Having _sex_ with _you_ is what will fulfill him, not sex with a hooker. And having sex daily absolutely _can_ be a need for people. Some people are able to compromise and take three or four times a week. But others can't, and that doesn't make them shallow. It means they have a stronger sexual drive, and they definitely need someone who is close to or matches that drive.


:smthumbup::iagree:

Request permission to translate this to my language and quote this to my upcoming book about "how to keep us lawyers away".

You're speaking very wisely.

I am a person who does not need daily sex, and am physically unable to do daily sex because my wife and I lives in separate cities. I have duties for my country, she has duties for her clan, and so she cannot move in to my house and I cannot move in to hers. I only able to meet her maybe two days in a week. Therefore, daily sex to me is a physical impossibility. But when I am with her, I do my best to fulfill her needs.

Maybe if Miss LB and her soon-to-be hubby lives in different cities and meet each other only 2 days out of 7, all this talk about resenting daily sex will never happen


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Pages and pages and pages ago a specific poster, who at the moment will remain nameless, posted that men have extreme expectations in bed. Actually, it was a few female posters who said those things, not just one.
> 
> It was more towards the beginning of the thread.


Eh, ok. Thank you for the info. I am still stands by my assessment that professional sex act are different with real sex act between couples, and I am yet to find any person in my real life who wants to have her/his real-life marriage sex to be like in professional adult erotica. Professional adult film = fantasy. No man in his right mind would marry a fantasy.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This concept is so hard for me because I don't like the concept of being DEPENDENT on any one thing.
> 
> Needing sex/needing an endorphin release every day....is dangerously close to an addiction for my liking.
> 
> ...


We are all dependent on something. You are dependent most likely on having a home, a car, a fridge with food, etc. Everyone has something they depend on. 

Additionally, you are straw arguing again. No one said "Have sex or else" No one implied that the needing spouse would neglect/abuse the other. You put that in there. 

It is not manipulative to explain your needs. 



LittleBird said:


> There will be no pre-nup. They literally nearly ****ted themselves when he refused to let them draw one up.
> 
> 
> 
> They said something about Paul McCartney.


Pre-nups apply to the marriage, not before it. 

Paul McCartney made a great portion of the money he gave his ex-wife during the marraige. The amount of money the Beatles still make even to this day is unbelieveable.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Is it the same if a lower-clan woman marries a higher-clan man?


When a higher-clan man marry a lower-clan woman, it is usually because the woman is very pretty, educated and could carry herself in good manners and dignity, and her family also. To illustrate, if the rich son of an Army General marry a beautiful daughter of a farmer, usually the clan has no objection, if the woman actually has a good education, good manners, and her family made a good impression during the family meeting before engagement.

But off course, when the man announce to his clan that he is marrying a farmer's daughter, usually an uncle or a cousin would say something like "Ahmed, why marry that farmer's daughter? Yes she is pretty, but so does our far cousin Aishah, or our distant cousin Maryam? Is beauty your only criteria?".

Of which the man must be able to give a satisfactory answer.



> As others have said, inheritance (300-year-old money) doesn't always follow the same rules and can be protected from being divided during a divorce. And rightfully so.


Yes. It is possible to draft a pre-nuptial agreement saying that this woman has no expectation to inherit any part of the husband's clan assets and will not be given any. 

However, Islamic laws also stated that inheritance goes from the father to his son to his grandson. So it is theoretically still possible for the mother to enjoy part of the inheritance through her son. "Mother, I am giving you the house that grandfather gave me. I am getting bored with that house because it is so old".


----------



## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

honeysuckle rose said:


> I think occasionally in most marriages *a woman starts counting ceiling tiles* no matter how "good" it/he is. That's just life - just like drives & people's bodies, attitudes & women's hormones changing. Meeting needs is the point of marriage. But, why look a gift horse in the mouth on either side?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have never once counted the ceiling tiles during sex, ever!


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But off course, when the man announce to his clan that he is marrying a farmer's daughter, . . . . [snip]


You might be interested to know that in the US there are all kinds of sexual fantasy stories about the farmer's daughter.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> You might be interested to know that in the US there are all kinds of sexual fantasy stories about the farmer's daughter.


Eh well, different cultures, different kind of fantasies


----------



## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> I really fail to see an issue with this post.
> 
> As long as she isn't being a huffy ***** about it, what is the problem with her making an effort out of love?
> 
> *She can't MAKE herself horny*. If she only had sex when she was horny, there wouldn't be enough sex and we'd be back to square one. At some point...cut the other person some slack if they're trying.


 I disagree (bolded) Sex starts with the mind, as they say your brain is the biggest sex organ. A woman can make herself horny. It is not always the job of your partner to get you in the mood for sex all the time!

I am a woman and I am horny all the time (practically). H on the other hand isn't. You have to give to get.. My love language is psychical.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't buy it. Sorry, I think it's crap and I don't buy it. For that matter, fine, I NEED a new diamond necklace every day, even if he has to work a million hours a week and be miserable his whole life to give that to me.
> 
> But hell, I need it.


You don't have to buy it. But don't marry a man who does. If you do, please don't be surprised if he finds another woman who definitely does "buy it".

Because yes, despite what you might hear, there are women in the world who feel exactly like your fiance does. And it's probably in his, and ultimately your, best interest that he marry somebody who shares his need for frequent, enjoyable sex.

You two are astronomically incompatible in this arena. And that might seem surmountable at 20, but I guarantee you the view will change down the line.


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Lyris said:


> LB uses exaggeration, selective truth-telling, hiding of events, deliberate misunderstanding and straw-man arguments to defend and explain herself. She also, I'm pretty sure, has told outright lies here and there.


Observe the contradiction between the assertion of having sex more or less continuously vs the incidents of turning down sex, depending on which chameleon is in play.

Here's another: the international celebrity swimsuit model, attending Harvard Law School, offspring of the Country Club jet-set portraying themselves as a lowly "commoner". 

Something's wrong with this picture, unless every single fashion, pop-culture, or general media rag has missed the boat on a minority cinderella "commoner-to-brilliant-international-sex-symbol" story. 

Tuition plus living expenses are about $77K a year there, so including a prestigious undergraduate school at the same time yileds around half a million dollars in college expenses. Add in the country club and lifestyle intimated and were talking deep into multimillionare territory at a minumum. 

Do the writing skills exhibit this level of pedigree and intellectual acumen? The vocabulary not only seems rather mediocre, but the language is positively gutteral in the main. 

A law school scholar not knowing that under divorce, a spouse is not entitled to wealth acquired prior to marriage? If the son is divorced prior to the inheritance - same thing. A prenuptual can cover any inheritance while married. 

Not only does the law scholar seem oblivious to this, but a family of inherited wealth over _centuries_ not knowing this basic fact of wealth preservation? That's like saying they don't know what a bank is for. They HATE her for a trivially untrue issue? Wasn't the hatred before on account of race? 

All one can know is not to trust what is being said. Consider the decent people who have sincerely put their time and heartfelt opinions into what is by its own testimony a big pile of contradictory nonsense. What kind of character does it take to do this kind of chain-yanking? One that places no value on other people. One who considers them objects to attain ends, however frivolous out of sheer boredom and sport even. 

Even the name, so fragile and sweet, pretty and nonthreatening. Yet a veritable sewer, overflowing with foul language and schizophrenic self-portraits. Of course the name. Little bird. Various spiders and venomous snakes might come to mind for others. 

'Tis better to look upon it as either entertainment or a curiosity of sorts.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> And this is why my fiancés parents HATE me. Because he is an only child and gets EVERYTHING, meaning I also get HALF of that if we split.
> 
> That's enough to make them roll over and die.
> 
> ...


Over the last few pages there is a whole money component creeping into your posts that screech "hello, I'm a gold digger willing to do anything it takes to get that money".

And if that's the case on any level, it goes a long way to explaining why you're so desperate to make it work with a man that you frankly have shown very little respect for during your discussions on this board. The potential gain is high enough for you to sacrifice almost everything, including your pride, dignity, and body, to gain.

Dear God I hope I'm wrong.

And if I'm right, than the parents are seeing this, and you'll likely be facing a pre-nup before you ever say "I do".


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Over the last few pages there is a whole money component creeping into your posts that screech "hello, I'm a gold digger willing to do anything it takes to get that money".
> 
> And if that's the case on any level, it goes a long way to explaining why you're so desperate to make it work with a man that you frankly have shown very little respect for during your discussions on this board. The potential gain is high enough for you to sacrifice almost everything, including your pride, dignity, and body, to gain.
> 
> ...


I have to admit I was wondering these things


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Dear God I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> And if I'm right, than the parents are seeing this, and you'll likely be facing a pre-nup before you ever say "I do".


Would be nice if Bigbird could make it to TAM and read the number of HD/LD disasters. If HD/LD shows as a problem before marriage then chances are nil of something good coming from this. It will get worse almost always.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Over the last few pages there is a whole money component creeping into your posts that screech "hello, I'm a _gold digger_ willing to do anything it takes to get that money".


So that's the American/Western term for it? Thank you for expanding my vocabulary.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Bravo, Mr. Sherlock Wiseforit.  Very Perceptive!
> 
> Also, in this post in another thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1298535-post22.html
> 
> ...


John....that is a different poster. Little Bird with a space. Not the Littlebird posting here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Observe the contradiction between the assertion of having sex more or less continuously vs the incidents of turning down sex, depending on which chameleon is in play.
> 
> Here's another: the international celebrity swimsuit model, attending Harvard Law School, offspring of the Country Club jet-set portraying themselves as a lowly "commoner".
> 
> ...


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


>


:rofl:


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Wiseforit....she attempted to give you a beating in this thread, however your perceptions and analysis are spot on. 

I feel she does have the potential and intelligence to grow if she so chooses. However, her choice may be not to grow herself, but rather to grow her bank account.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> John....that is a different poster. Little Bird with a space. Not the Littlebird posting here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah, yes. My bad, and I have deleted my misread-induced post accordingly. Thank you Thoreau!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Wiseforit....she attempted to give you a beating in this thread, however your perceptions and analysis are spot on.
> 
> I feel she does have the potential and intelligence to grow if she so chooses.


:smthumbup:


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Observe the contradiction between the assertion of having sex more or less continuously vs the incidents of turning down sex, depending on which chameleon is in play.
> 
> Here's another: the international celebrity swimsuit model, attending Harvard Law School, offspring of the Country Club jet-set portraying themselves as a lowly "commoner".
> 
> ...


Your observation are commendable



> 'Tis better to look upon it as either entertainment or a curiosity of sorts.


This will make a good script for a telenovela! (TV soap opera)


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Observe the contradiction between the assertion of having sex more or less continuously vs the incidents of turning down sex, depending on which chameleon is in play.
> 
> Here's another: the international celebrity swimsuit model, attending Harvard Law School, offspring of the Country Club jet-set portraying themselves as a lowly "commoner".
> 
> ...


I can prove who I am very easily, that isn't an issue and I have zero problem doing so.

Also, are you quite finished? 

And as flattered as I am by your sweeping generalizations, overly convoluted reasoning and outright smug head up your ass arrogance, you are wrong about me.

And if I am who you say I am, do you really want to **** with me?

I might very well come to your house and burn it down in one of my schizophrenic rages. 

Leave me alone. 

And go analyze someone else you don't know.

Where do you get off insulting my intelligence? Attack the opinion, not the person behind it.

Or did they never teach you that in whatever fancy graduate school you went to? 

A clear sign of someone without a valid argument is someone who begins to throw personal insults to make a point. 

But you aren't interested in fact. No, you're not. You're interested in attacking me and projecting your bitterness onto me. 

So go right ahead, if that makes you happy. I'd hate to deprive a pathetic old man of his jollies.

And the name? Little Bird? It's what my grandfather used to call me. But I'm flattered that you think I'd put so much thought into my evil, evil machinations. 

You bore me. Honestly, you do. Question my intelligence if you will, that is surely going to have such a drastic impact on me. One random person in the internet...Saints Alive! 

NOTHING else in my life has ever validated me before and so that simply crushed my soul.

You and I have nothing else to say to each other. 

You think I'm a sociopath and I think you are a bitter, bitter man. And by the way...you overestimate yourself if you think "Little Bo Peep" is somehow intimidated by your Oxford Dictionary Vocabulary. Which, I too possess and don't' feel the need to spurt out at random to pass myself off as smart. I noticed you insulted that. Which, considering my history, is nothing short of laughable to me. I actually had a good chuckle. 

This is the long and short. Any further discourse would be a waste of time.

Leave me alone. If I am truly a curiosity, waste no more of your time. 

And if I'm not, if I'm really as cold blooded as you say? Perhaps it isn't wise to keep poking me with a stick, now is it? 

Have a wonderful day! I don't have an insult strong enough for you and your kind. No such word has been written. And by the way, if you ever WENT to law school, you would know that reading a text book doesn't mean you know everything about the law. Also, if you would bother to read everything instead of just the pieces that satisfy you, you would know that I mentioned race/class as the reason his parents are not fond of me. It is very easy for you to take snippets of what I've said, stick them together and make me seem like something I am not. If you take the time to do that..., well good on you. Really. Marvelous. 

And as for the money....over half of us are on SCHOLARSHIP. Ever heard of such a thing? And as for the country club...yes. But I'm not from New York. It doesn't cost an obscene amount where I am from. Multi millionaire? Hm, that sounds about accurate. But most of our money is tied up in assets, I don't just have raw spending money-though my parents do. 

I grew up with money and I grew up with class and for the sake of that class, I'm going to stop this discussion. I'm done. Yes, I have a temper. Yes, I have issues. I am many things but I am not some manipulative troll and I'm done with you, since all the logic and intelligence in the world won't change what you want to see. 

XOXO, 
Little Bo Peep, The Country Club Cliche Schizo


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Your observation are commendable
> 
> 
> 
> This will make a good script for a telenovela! (TV soap opera)


He forgot to tell you that I also eat babies and suck their blood.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He forgot to tell you that I also eat babies and suck their blood.


Don't smile Thundarr. This is not funny.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> hah??!?!? _MOST MEN_ want such things? That would be a physical impossibility. As I mentioned, even when I was young I cannot fill a cup easily. Why should women bring up such impossibilities?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excuse me. I was being humorous.

A few girls mentioned that most men demand porn star sex, that they want women to suck down a half cup of vile body fluids (one assumes sperm) and that they want to swing from the chandeliers while having sex.

Well, most couples occassionally like some oral, try some anal, and swallowing or even coming in the mouth is more of an option...though men will whine about this or that (whining on the man's part seems to equate to 'demanding like a Mandarin or Daimiyo of old)

So I think the assertion is ridiculous.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

JCD said:


> Excuse me. I was being humorous.


English is not his first language. I just don't think the humor (which was quite funny by the way) translated over to him.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Don't smile Thundarr. This is not funny.


No, it's fvcking HILARIOUS!

LittleBird, to to his profile page and block him if he's upset you that much.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He forgot to tell you that I also eat babies and suck their blood.


Do you prefer lean babies or ones who are a bit roly poly? I hear cholestoral is a worry, so you need to look after your diet, particularly if you want to stay on the catwalk.

And considering how frequent your sex life is, I wouldn't be surprised if you occassionally got some blood. Not sure where he's getting his stamina from...

Edited to add: Oops...sorry. You suck the BABY's blood...boy do I feel embarassed. Well, blood is low fat so that solves the diet issue right there.

I suppose the other sucking is recreational...


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Oh well you better believe I divorce his ass, I'm taking half of that
> $$$$$ and buying myself a small island.


Oh yeah, brilliant thinking before you even marry the guy.

FWIW I actually do come from a big money family and I can tell you that my parents have spent a small fortune on having everything tied up very tightly from a legal POV. OK I live in a different country and the laws are probably different but I would bet that his parents and their Lawyer will have plenty in place to stop their son losing his future inheritance this way.

Again different laws but here it is possible to divest pre death without taxes payable to the receiver so this happens in my family but the money is considered mine. When I divorced these divestments were not included in the settlement. 

Then in the future my inheritance is protected as is my children's from any future partners any of us have. 

You have some growing up to do. The sex thing was bad enough but throw in the money thing and you are sounding like a little girl trying to play in a grown ups world. You will get eaten alive unless if you are not careful.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Oh yeah, brilliant thinking before you even marry the guy.
> 
> FWIW I actually do come from a big money family and I can tell you that my parents have spent a small fortune on having everything tied up very tightly from a legal POV. OK I live in a different country and the laws are probably different but I would bet that his parents and their Lawyer will have plenty in place to stop their son losing his future inheritance this way.
> 
> ...


Holland...I was joking.

I was just joking.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Holland...I was joking.
> 
> I was just joking.


There is often some truth behind "just joking".

The second his parents get a hint of this type of thinking they will do everything they can to prevent him marrying you. The power his parents have and his future financial security have the potential to far outweigh his love for you.

Just saying that I know how big money families work. They will embrace a child's partner that is not from money but only if that person shows they are a genuine person, no ulterior motives or hidden agendas.

My ex is not from a seriously wealthy family (average) but his is still embraced by my family even after our divorce because he is genuinely a good person and proved that over almost 2 decades.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

JCD said:


> Excuse me. I was being humorous.
> 
> A few girls mentioned that most men demand porn star sex, that they want women to suck down a half cup of vile body fluids (one assumes sperm) and that they want to swing from the chandeliers while having sex.
> 
> ...


Ah, now I understand. Thank you Mr. JCD for making it more clearer, and yes, the assertion is ridiculous when presented that way.

As an additional trivia: The Daimyos in ancient Japan, in addition to formal wife, they also had concubine girls and Bishonen (beautiful young men) to serve them. This way of life is called Wakashudo. But it was a way of life long gone, no more heard or seen since 1868. 

Back to our discussions,

I think Pornography/Adult erotica is not real, it is only show business/fantasy, like Superman/Spiderman/Wonder Woman films. Fun to watch, but surely not always good examples to follow. In the films Superman can fly, I cannot. In adult erotica films, John Holmes can make love to three woman at once. I cannot, not at once.

Modern marriage is reality. We cannot expect show business fantasy in actual marriage. I am yet to find any man or woman who cannot distinguish between the reality of married life and the fantasy of adult erotica films done by trained professionals. 

To be honest, I think Miss LB's reports of daily sex and blowjobs for her beloved fiancee, is more incredible than adult erotica. I could never understand the idea of daily sex. Daily would be rather tiring and rather boring. Does young men nowadays really have the stamina to do it everyday?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> There is often some truth behind "just joking".
> 
> The second his parents get a hint of this type of thinking they will do everything they can to prevent him marrying you. The power his parents have and his future financial security have the potential to far outweigh his love for you.
> 
> ...



I had NO idea he was from as much money as he is until we'd already been dating several years....his family really isn't that flashy. Plus, as a kid you don't pick up on those kind of things as much.

I love him for him. He could get cut off and I wouldn't give a twig. Besides, one only needs so much money. Once you get to a certain point, anymore is pretty pointless.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Holland said:


> There is often some truth behind "just joking".
> 
> The second his parents get a hint of this type of thinking they will do everything they can to prevent him marrying you. The power his parents have and his future financial security have the potential to far outweigh his love for you.
> 
> ...


I understand completely. My country is like that, marriage is the matter between families, not just between the couple. Marriage without the permission and support from the clans oftentimes ended up badly. In fact the permission of the clans is considered very important, even now in this modern era we still have arranged marriages. 

Off course, this has to do with our culture. Certainly what works for us Asians may not work for Westerners.

Mrs. Holland, Good to hear that your ex husband are still in good relations with your family. :smthumbup:


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> FWIW I actually do come from a big money family and I can tell you that my parents have spent a small fortune on having everything tied up very tightly from a legal POV. OK I live in a different country and the laws are probably different but I would bet that his parents and their Lawyer will have plenty in place to stop their son losing his future inheritance this way.


Exactly. LB said her man's family is from 'old money'. They've been protecting assets for centuries. She will never, ever get her hands on any significant part of this family's funds. Their petulant, barely legal son wanting to have full access to his inheritance, and opening it up legally to Littlebird, will not mean squat crap if it ever comes down to marriage.

I do hope she's just joking. Because if there is any truth to the following statements:



LittleBird said:


> It's not about the money, the reason I'm marrying him. But for the amount I'll be getting and the opportunities my kids are going to have, I could jump one legged on a pogo stick and sing the hokey pokey song everyday if that's what he wanted.





LittleBird said:


> And this is why my fiancés parents HATE me. Because he is an only child and gets EVERYTHING, meaning I also get HALF of that if we split.




She is in for a very rude awakening. They already disapprove of their relationship. They WILL protect their assets against her, marriage be damned.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

They are called trust fund babies for a reason...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Exactly. LB said her man's family is from 'old money'. They've been protecting assets for centuries. She will never, ever get her hands on any significant part of this family's funds. Their petulant, barely legal son wanting to have full access to his inheritance, and opening it up legally to Littlebird, will not mean squat crap if it ever comes down to marriage.
> 
> I do hope she's just joking. Because if there is any truth to the following statements:
> 
> ...


Guys, in all seriousness, I was joking.

If they cut him off, I'd still marry him.

I have enough money to support us just fine.

As I said, how much money can you even spend in a lifetime? What is the point?

My S/O can track his money to the Mayflower (expression, not literally) and I know I will never get any of it in divorce.

Divorce isn't an option for me....it's a cop out I'd rather not use, I take marriage really seriously, unlike most people seem to my age. I'm not just gonna get married cause it's "cute" and jump ship the second things don't go my way.

I'm not THAT shallow, people.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> They are called trust fund babies for a reason...


We are both trust fund babies. The difference being my trust fund is 1 generation old, his is at least 6 or 7.

I don't *need* anymore money. Literally, there are very things I can't buy with what I'm inheriting.

I want HIM. Otherwise, I'd pull an Anna Nicole Smith.

Ewwwwwww.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Guys, in all seriousness, I was joking.
> 
> If they cut him off, I'd still marry him.
> 
> ...


Ok, but what about him? You say YOU would still marry him, even if he was penniless. But would HE marry YOU if he was still penniless? I ask because you have already stated that his parents don't like you. Because they don't like you, there is that chance, whether significant or slight, that they could cut him off. Would HE be willing to walk away from it all, for you? And, if you were unable to work as a model any longer, or even to finish school and become a lawyer or whatever else you choose (hey, you could change majors...it happens)... would he be ok with you two being penniless or practically penniless? These are things you both need to think about as well. You say you would still marry him... but would he still marry you under those circumstances?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, but what about him? You say YOU would still marry him, even if he was penniless. But would HE marry YOU if he was still penniless? I ask because you have already stated that his parents don't like you. Because they don't like you, there is that chance, whether significant or slight, that they could cut him off. Would HE be willing to walk away from it all, for you? And, if you were unable to work as a model any longer, or even to finish school and become a lawyer or whatever else you choose (hey, you could change majors...it happens)... would he be ok with you two being penniless or practically penniless? These are things you both need to think about as well. You say you would still marry him... but would he still marry you under those circumstances?


My parents can't cut me off since I'm the only veritable heir, same with him. Also, my parents like him (for the most part)

His parents huff and puff but who else are they going to leave the money to? He's the only one. I doubt they'd let it leave the family. 

But to answer your question: 

Yes, he would. We've talked about this before. Long and short:

"I love you pum pum."


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, but what about him? You say YOU would still marry him, even if he was penniless. But would HE marry YOU if he was still penniless? I ask because you have already stated that his parents don't like you. Because they don't like you, there is that chance, whether significant or slight, that they could cut him off. Would HE be willing to walk away from it all, for you? And, if you were unable to work as a model any longer, or even to finish school and become a lawyer or whatever else you choose (hey, you could change majors...it happens)... would he be ok with you two being penniless or practically penniless? These are things you both need to think about as well. You say you would still marry him... but would he still marry you under those circumstances?


Mr. Blueblood isn't worried about being cut off...or much of anything.

Here is the REALLY important question (IMO): If she wasn't fvcking him daily, on demand, would he still want to marry her? Treasure in a few years is pie in the sky to him. Sex right here, right now, is a much more tangible thing whose lack he can feel.

Hence her hesitation to have some important conversations...though she seems to be addressing them somewhat.

So, bearing in mind the man (whom you love) and the money (which you say you don't care about...but I wasn't born yesterday. Remember the kids post?), the BEST advice you've been given based on the REALITIES of your choices is to see a very good sex therapist. You'll be 'stuck' screwing him for a while. You should find a way to make the task as palatable as possible.

Who knows? You might even come to like it...and that will bring whole new dimensions into the relationship.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Mr. Blueblood isn't worried about being cut off...or much of anything.
> 
> Here is the REALLY important question (IMO): If she wasn't fvcking him daily, on demand, would he still want to marry her? Treasure in a few years is pie in the sky to him. Sex right here, right now, is a much more tangible thing whose lack he can feel.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

And I'm not going to pretend my jaw didn't hit the floor when I found out how rich he really was but I loved him before I knew. 

And I'll love him without that.

Sex is...complicated in my head....angel voices and devil voices and what not.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have enough money to support us just fine.


I'm not really trying to nitpick here, but your responses are giving me whiplash. 

This thread that you made:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/financial-problems-marriage/65554-inheritance.html

Suggest that there are indeed real money concerns in your relationship. Not sure why you're shying away from their reality.

And right now, according to you, you are broke. Your parents, and your grandmother, have money, but you have none.

I believe this is where people are getting confused, and even a little suspicious. You'll state one fact about your life, people will address it, and then your story shifts on a dime.

Are we just not communicating well with you? Or is there more going on here than meets the eye?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My parents can't cut me off since I'm the only veritable heir, same with him. Also, my parents like him (for the most part)
> 
> His parents huff and puff but who else are they going to leave the money to? He's the only one. I doubt they'd let it leave the family.


I have enough connections to wealthy people to know that some leave everything to charities, other family, and friends, and zero to children if they have a falling out, or disapprove.

There are trust fund babies who have, indeed, found themselves out in the cold because they assumed they couldn't be cut off.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I'm not really trying to nitpick here, but your responses are giving me whiplash.
> 
> This thread that you made:
> 
> ...


I am going to address this.

The story is the same at all times. What parts I choose to focus on or find relevant are constantly changing.

I do apologize for this. It's sub-concious and something I'm working on.

I change my mind....every few minutes.....even if the reality stays the same...does that make any sense?

My head is sort of like a snow globe. I try to placate people, automatically, by shifting my focus. I don't change the facts, I just change what part of them I address. It's hard to explain why...that's another can of worms. I don't like conflict...I just try to make everything ok.

Oh and "broke" meaning eh...middle class. I make decent money on my own. But broke compared to what I'd be otherwise? Hell yes.


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> And as for the money....over half of us are on SCHOLARSHIP. Ever heard of such a thing? And as for the country club...yes. But I'm not from New York. It doesn't cost an obscene amount where I am from. Multi millionaire? Hm, that sounds about accurate. But most of our money is tied up in assets, I don't just have raw spending money-though my parents do.


OK, now I have to admit I'm scratching my head. Back in my day, if the parents had money, you weren't going to get gift financial aid. Maybe loans. Family net worth was counted in deciding on financial aid. Heck, I didn't get anything, and my family net worth came to about $150K, with little income. Adjusted for inflation, maybe $300K in today's dollars. And a country club? Couldn't afford that even in Michigan, where I grew up.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> OK, now I have to admit I'm scratching my head. Back in my day, if the parents had money, you weren't going to get gift financial aid. Maybe loans. Family net worth was counted in deciding on financial aid. Heck, I didn't get anything, and my family net worth came to about $150K, with little income. Adjusted for inflation, maybe $300K in today's dollars. And a country club? Couldn't afford that even in Michigan, where I grew up.


You can check the website.

Look at the percentage of us on some sort of assistance.

Some of it is merit based. Mine is not need based. Mine comes from my college GPA and other things. 

And the scholarship isn't much. My parents DO pay for most of it.

We can afford the country club. We can afford a lot of things. We aren't stupid rich like he is, but we're lucky.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Oh I thought when you said broke you meant poverty broke, where have lived before middle class is rich.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> OK, now I have to admit I'm scratching my head. Back in my day, if the parents had money, you weren't going to get gift financial aid. Maybe loans. Family net worth was counted in deciding on financial aid. Heck, I didn't get anything, and my family net worth came to about $150K, with little income. Adjusted for inflation, maybe $300K in today's dollars. And a country club? Couldn't afford that even in Michigan, where I grew up.


Some scholarships are based purely on variables which aren't addressed by pure financial need.

For example, the son of an Indian Casino owner could get a scholarship which is based upon being in the correct tribe or just being a Native American with a specfic grade point average.

And anyone going to Harvard needs help unless you have towns named after you...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Some scholarships are based purely on variables which aren't addressed by pure financial need.
> 
> For example, the son of an Indian Casino owner could get a scholarship which is based upon being in the correct tribe or just being a Native American with a specfic grade point average.
> 
> And anyone going to Harvard needs help unless you have towns named after you...


My fiancé has a ****ing wing named after his family but we shan't get into that. :rofl:

I suggested he get a job and he looked confused for a minute. I think he had to process the word "job."


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My fiancé has a ****ing wing named after his family but we shan't get into that. :rofl:
> 
> I suggested he get a job and he looked confused for a minute. I think he had to process the word "job."


He thought you were missing a word in front of the word 'job' wihich caused him wicked confusion.

It's like ringing the bell for Pavlov's dog with no treat...


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

JCD said:


> He thought you were missing a word in front of the word 'job' wihich caused him wicked confusion.
> 
> It's like ringing the bell for Pavlov's dog with no treat...


:lol:


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I am going to address this.
> 
> The story is the same at all times. What parts I choose to focus on or find relevant are constantly changing.
> 
> ...


You lie and lie and lie. You lie to us, to your fiancé, to yourself. I'm sure you lie to your parents. You dissemble and change facts and deny your clearly-stated feelings when you can see you've gone too far.

It's not okay. It's a serious character flaw. In fact, what it shows is an absolute lack of character.

You're a chameleon. Whatever people want you to be, that's what you'll be. You refer to yourself as "pretty wallpaper", as having a reactive personality. Have you heard of borderline personality disorder? If not, try google. I think you'll see a lot that's familiar.

I edited my original post, as JCD is right. Diagnosis by Internet is not fair.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

BTW, Lyris? I love that avatar. threadjack over.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Guys, in all seriousness, I was joking.
> 
> If they cut him off, I'd still marry him.
> 
> ...


The problem is LB that the more you post the more the above statement loses credibility. 
There are some real issues the two of you have, if you take marriage seriously then do not do it until all of these issues are out in the open and sorted out.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I understand completely. My country is like that, marriage is the matter between families, not just between the couple. Marriage without the permission and support from the clans oftentimes ended up badly. In fact the permission of the clans is considered very important, even now in this modern era we still have arranged marriages.
> 
> Off course, this has to do with our culture. Certainly what works for us Asians may not work for Westerners.
> 
> *Mrs. Holland, Good to hear that your ex husband are still in good relations with your family*. :smthumbup:


Thanks JLb3 yes he is still in with my family, they love him. He catches up with my dad for lunches and we celebrate all family events together.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> You lie and lie and lie. You lie to us, to your fiancé, to yourself. I'm sure you lie to your parents. You dissemble and change facts and deny your clearly-stated feelings when you can see you've gone too far.
> 
> It's not okay. It's a serious character flaw. In fact, what it shows is an absolute lack of character.
> 
> You're a chameleon. Whatever people want you to be, that's what you'll be. You refer to yourself as "pretty wallpaper", as having a reactive personality. What I'm seeing is a classic case of borderline personality disorder.


Mrs. Lyris, Your post above makes me go searching the Net for the meaning of "Borderline Personality Disorder". I am not trained in this field of science, but are these characteristics below fits to your definition of Borderline Personality Disorder?

(source: Wikipedia)



> The primary features of BPD are unstable interpersonal relationships, affective distress, marked impulsivity, and unstable self-image.
> 
> Individuals with BPD tend to experience frequent, strong and long-lasting states of aversive tension, often triggered by perceived rejection, being alone or perceived failure. They may show lability (changeability) between anger and anxiety or between depression and anxiety and temperamental sensitivity to emotive stimuli.
> 
> ...


What are your thoughts Mrs. Lyris?


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My parents can't cut me off since I'm the only veritable heir, same with him. Also, my parents like him (for the most part)
> 
> His parents huff and puff but who else are they going to leave the money to? He's the only one. I doubt they'd let it leave the family.
> 
> ...


Again, different countries so maybe different laws. But people can choose who they leave their estate to. I know from first hand experience that one of my siblings has been left out of my parents will (very long ugly story). She could contest but because she has been left a token amount and would not be able to prove that her livelyhood depends on inheritance she would not win if contested.

If you lived here, your partners parents could leave it to the lost dogs home and as long as they gave him a token amount he could not successfully contest.

ETA: How could you not know how wealthy his family are if you have know him since you were 3 years old? 
My family are not flashy, people from afar would not guess the wealth but it would not take a genius to work it out over time.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mrs. Lyris, Your post above makes me go searching the Net for the meaning of "Borderline Personality Disorder". I am not trained in this field of science, but are these characteristics below fits to your definition of Borderline Personality Disorder?
> 
> (source: Wikipedia)
> 
> ...


It's a mistake to try to psychoanalyze someone over the internet...but it certainly is fun.

It is no stretch to see that Littlebird is trying hard to be a pleaser. How far does that go? How much of a 'core' does she have?

I'm not sure. Which is why I advise therapy.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My parents can't cut me off since I'm the only veritable heir, same with him. Also, my parents like him (for the most part)
> 
> His parents huff and puff but who else are they going to leave the money to? He's the only one. I doubt they'd let it leave the family.
> 
> ...


Dissapointed parents leave fortunes to charity on occasion. Just watched one of those "who did it" shows a daughter knocked her parents off hoping to do so before the will change. People can be nuts.

That was off topic though, LB IF we assume your motives are sincere then you still have a LD/HD issue to overcome. This normally gets worse with time. Maybe you guys should date for a few years and make sure you settle into something that works.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> OK, now I have to admit I'm scratching my head. Back in my day, if the parents had money, you weren't going to get gift financial aid. Maybe loans. Family net worth was counted in deciding on financial aid. Heck, I didn't get anything, and my family net worth came to about $150K, with little income. Adjusted for inflation, maybe $300K in today's dollars. And a country club? Couldn't afford that even in Michigan, where I grew up.


I went to a prestigious, private university. My parents made too much to be considered needy, but not enough to afford my majorly expensive education completely out of pocket. I, and quite a few others, had merit based scholarships. Those are doled out regardless of income. The rest was out of pocket, major loans, and work study (which they shockingly allowed me to convert into another scholarship).


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> You lie and lie and lie. You lie to us, to your fiancé, to yourself. I'm sure you lie to your parents. You dissemble and change facts and deny your clearly-stated feelings when you can see you've gone too far.
> 
> It's not okay. It's a serious character flaw. In fact, what it shows is an absolute lack of character.
> 
> ...



Yes. I am a chameleon. 

It's not meant to be a weapon. 

It's meant to be a defense. 

I can't explain it to you. I won't try. 

I don't go around sucking blood. In real life, I mostly keep to myself. I keep my head down and I get good grades, I'm polite but distant. 

I don't go around trying to do harm to others. You don't have to believe me but I have no desire to hurt anyone.

And yes, I have heard of borderline personality disorder. I'm missing a few of those...I could never be violent. I have no ability to be callous. I'm not the type of person who can watch someone else suffer. The opposite, actually. 

I've been toying with the idea of an attachment disorder. 

But the important thing to keep in mind is that not all of the people who fall under that blanket are going to do bad things.

Most killers have some sort of BDP. 

Do I want to kill anyone? No. 

All I want is to marry this man, go far, far away from my pathetic excuse for a life and be happy. 

That is it, in a nutshell. 

I am misguided. Very misguided. But my heart is in the right place. I'm working on getting the rest of me in the right place to go with it.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

abitlost said:


> Oh I thought when you said broke you meant poverty broke, where have lived before middle class is rich.


No kidding! Middle class...poor.... No. Poor is when you have to ration out your food at the end of the month because you only get a few hundred dollars each month for your income and you rely on assistance from the state to feed your kids. Poor is when you have NO CHOICE but to shop at secondhand stores for your clothing because brand new, even at Walmart, is too expensive. No, I'm not THAT bad off, but I know people who are. Middle class broke? Please... LB, mommy and daddy can still step in and bail you out. You're not broke.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Maybe you guys should date for a few years and make sure you settle into something that works.


LB, I agree with this 100%. What harm could it do? In the meantime, counseling is in order for both of you and getting off on the right foot before getting married is a huge opportunity for both of you. There are many issues at play here.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> No kidding! Middle class...poor.... No. Poor is when you have to ration out your food at the end of the month because you only get a few hundred dollars each month for your income and you rely on assistance from the state to feed your kids. Poor is when you have NO CHOICE but to shop at secondhand stores for your clothing because brand new, even at Walmart, is too expensive. No, I'm not THAT bad off, but I know people who are. Middle class broke? Please... LB, mommy and daddy can still step in and bail you out. You're not broke.


This is fair. 

When I used the term "broke" in my other post, it was relative.

I don't have enough money to pay for my life, is more accurate. If my parents stopped paying for me, I'd be in serious trouble in terms of my education and all that...

But I'd still be able to eat.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> The problem is LB that the more you post the more the above statement loses credibility.
> There are some real issues the two of you have, if you take marriage seriously then do not do it until all of these issues are out in the open and sorted out.


I have no intention of getting married until all of this is sorted out.

Believe it or not, even if it hurts my feelings (yes, I do have those somewhere deep down in my coal black heart, lol) I appreciate your feedback.

I didn't come here to be told how great I am. I came here to learn. 

So bring it.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't think you have a coal heart lol, sometimes your posts are slightly erratic I think it causes a little confusion.
But I do hope everything goes well for you.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Again, different countries so maybe different laws. But people can choose who they leave their estate to. I know from first hand experience that one of my siblings has been left out of my parents will (very long ugly story). She could contest but because she has been left a token amount and would not be able to prove that her livelyhood depends on inheritance she would not win if contested.
> 
> If you lived here, your partners parents could leave it to the lost dogs home and as long as they gave him a token amount he could not successfully contest.
> 
> ...


I knew he was wealthy.

But when he lived near me, he didn't live in some flashy house. They had 3 cars, pretty standard for my area.

I really had no idea. His parents sent him to public school for a few years in elementary. 

And he himself was always in jeans and a T shirt. 

They weren't the Stuffy McStuffersons until AFTER we started to get seriously involved. 

His parents never took me seriously but after a couple more years into adulthood, they realized I was a marriage candidate.

That's when I found out that they had stupid money. And *several* other domestic and foreign properties I had no clue about. How could I?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> It's a mistake to try to psychoanalyze someone over the internet...but it certainly is fun.
> 
> It is no stretch to see that Littlebird is trying hard to be a pleaser. How far does that go? How much of a 'core' does she have?
> 
> I'm not sure. Which is why I advise therapy.


Core? What is that? 

I have very few innate characteristics. 

One of them is that I never, ever want to hurt anyone. 

I don't know much else.

I just try not to botch it too much along the way. 

I don't form attachments. My fiancé is the only person I love. My parents could drop dead in the street tomorrow and I really, honestly, would not blink. That either makes me cold or it makes them terrible parents, probably a bit of both. 

There is no malice in me. Somewhere a long the way, I got this picture of what I think I'm going to be. So I walk towards that, unsure as it is. I pick up pieces a long the way. I figure out what works and I pick them up and put them in my pocket. So no, I don't really have a core. I don't think I ever did, really. But if I do have a core, I don't think it's bad.

I know I want him. I know I want a nice house, three kids and two dogs. And a cat. I know I want to move somewhere nobody knows who we are and wouldn't care if they did. 

Pretty wallpaper is actually a very accurate term to describe me. I've always done it. Watch what works...watch what people like...and do it. I don't do it because I want to hurt them. I do it because I just want to be...normal. Is that a thing? I don't know. That doesn't sound right on paper. Modeling was a natural diversion for me. Sadly. That says a lot.

It makes no sense. Not even to me. 

Mostly, I just smile and try to keep people happy.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Mostly, I just smile and try to keep people happy.


Hun, this is just one issue and is very unhealthy. What about what you want?

Google "people pleaser" 

How to Stop Being a People Pleaser: 8 steps - wikiHow


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Yes. I am a chameleon.
> 
> It's not meant to be a weapon.
> 
> ...


Then do yourself a big favor, however long you post here on TAM. Stop lying. This is anonymous. There is nobody here to impress, nobody here who has expectations for you. This is a safe place to finally begin to practice giving credence, and expression, to your honest voice. If you can't do it here, you're never going to be able to do it in real life. Use this board to your advantage, as a place to vent, talk, discuss, even help others, but do it all from a place of real honesty. It's not even about us, but about giving yourself the gift of having a place where you can truly be yourself, no matter what that looks like.

There is nobody here to be pretty for. 





LittleBird said:


> All I want is to marry this man, go far, far away from my pathetic excuse for a life and be happy.
> 
> That is it, in a nutshell


Just remember, no matter where you run to, there you are. And we are the root of our own unhappiness. So marrying him, and running far way, will never take you any step closer to solving your problems if you don't deal with the root, and find a way to make peace with yourself.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> Why is it so hard to see that when a man (or woman for that matter), vents about sex, they may actually have a valid reason? If you take the time to actually read the stories, you can tell the difference between a selfish man ranting about sex and a good husband who's needs aren't being fulfilled.


That's the crux of the issue in a lot of this argument. It's about finding a way to meet the needs of both partners. However, if you cannot have open and honest communication WITHOUT pettiness, resentment and bitterness from either side, it cannot be achieved. 

I do find the title of this thread really indicates the mindset of the OP. Her own experiences appear to have really left her in a very angry and resentful place and for that reason, I hope she finds some help.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Then do yourself a big favor, however long you post here on TAM. Stop lying. This is anonymous. There is nobody here to impress, nobody here who has expectations for you. This is a safe place to finally begin to practice giving credence, and expression, to your honest voice. If you can't do it here, you're never going to be able to do it in real life. Use this board to your advantage, as a place to vent, talk, discuss, even help others, but do it all from a place of real honesty. It's not even about us, but about giving yourself the gift of having a place where you can truly be yourself, no matter what that looks like.
> 
> There is nobody here to be pretty for.
> 
> ...


The facts are all true.

I just can't seem to make up my mind how I feel about anything.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> The facts are all true.
> 
> I just can't seem to make up my mind how I feel about anything.


Just because the facts are true, doesn't mean you aren't lying.

There are several very clear times where you have been caught in a lie. It's so natural to you, being a chamelon (which is just another term for a chronic liar) that you might not even see it.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Just because the facts are true, doesn't mean you aren't lying.
> 
> There are several very clear times where you have been caught in a lie. It's so natural to you, being a chamelon (which is just another term for a chronic liar) that you might not even see it.


Not to be contrary...but that makes no sense to me. That actually does not compute.

There is truth and there are lies.

Ten true facts, strung together in a haphazard order might end up looking like a lie.

But the rest of it just...confuses me.

God, this is exhausting. I exhaust myself. Everything I've said about who I am and my past is technically true. That is, if you did a background check on me, it would all come up clean. 

But it all gets so damn muddled when you put feeling, perception, motive....that is when it becomes a mess.

And actually, I'm not a chronic liar in the technical sense of the word. I change my emotion or perception to fit situations. I never actually saw that as a bad thing.

I can't change the inalienable facts-I really am 20, a law student, engaged blah blah. 

I struggle when we get into the grey areas, when things are not so concrete as that.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My parents can't cut me off since I'm the only veritable heir, same with him. Also, my parents like him (for the most part)
> 
> His parents huff and puff but who else are they going to leave the money to? He's the only one. I doubt they'd let it leave the family.
> 
> ...


You'd be surprised what parents can do. Yes, they can cut you off. They may not, they may even have promised you they won't. You know better than me, but from a purely legal standing, yes, they can cut you off. Ditto for him.



jaharthur said:


> OK, now I have to admit I'm scratching my head. Back in my day, if the parents had money, you weren't going to get gift financial aid. Maybe loans. Family net worth was counted in deciding on financial aid. Heck, I didn't get anything, and my family net worth came to about $150K, with little income. Adjusted for inflation, maybe $300K in today's dollars. And a country club? Couldn't afford that even in Michigan, where I grew up.


Same here in Canada (at least in this province). Getting a student loan is based on what your parents/household income is. This works against our children as we have told them that we aren't going to be paying for their post-secondary education (don't have the means to firstly, secondly I don't believe I should need to), yet the province says that due to us making X amount of dollars annually, they should be getting money from us and not them. I can't think of anything else in life where your parents income influences whether or not you get funding from someone. Banks, credit card companies, etc. would never do this, not sure why students have to suffer because of how much a parent makes.

It goes extra far for kids in a divorced family, who not only have to list what their parents make, but also what their step-parents make if they are living with a step-parent. So for my two step-kids, they have to list me, their mom and their dad, even though their dad wouldn't lend them a nickel and is almost completely out of their life.



LittleBird said:


> All I want is to marry this man, go far, far away from my pathetic excuse for a life and be happy.


Why is your life 'pathetic'?



LittleBird said:


> One of them is that I never, ever want to hurt anyone.


And again, what do you want? Why not please you?



LittleBird said:


> Everything I've said about who I am and my past is *technically *true....
> 
> And actually, I'm not a chronic liar in the *technical *sense of the word.


Technically, this is also considered lying.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> You'd be surprised what parents can do. Yes, they can cut you off. They may not, they may even have promised you they won't. You know better than me, but from a purely legal standing, yes, they can cut you off. Ditto for him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't have any student loans (well, I think I may have a 5,000k stafford loan from college but like I'm gonna pay it). 

I have a merit based scholarship, as well as some help from the folks. 

Why that last bit? The sky is blue. Fact. I am a law student. Fact. 

That's what I meant by technical, is all.

And they totally can cut us both off. They can do whatever they want to. However, as for my parents, they won't. I call that bluff. They never will. 

His parents might, I can't speak for them.

But we're both adults who are capable of our own earning power. I try not to fret over that too much.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Same here in Canada (at least in this province). Getting a student loan is based on what your parents/household income is. This works against our children as we have told them that we aren't going to be paying for their post-secondary education (don't have the means to firstly, secondly I don't believe I should need to), yet the province says that due to us making X amount of dollars annually, they should be getting money from us and not them. I can't think of anything else in life where your parents income influences whether or not you get funding from someone.


Because the vast majority of teenagers can not afford to spend potentially tens of thousands of dollars on post-secondary education. That's sort of like wondering why a bank won't give a 17 year old a home loan.

If you feel you don't need to contribute toward your children's post-secondary education, how are you expecting them to pay for it? If you and your wife made it clear that they need to get merit based scholarships, and grants?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Because the vast majority of teenagers can not afford to spend potentially tens of thousands of dollars on post-secondary education. That's sort of like wondering why a bank won't give a 17 year old a home loan.
> 
> If you feel you don't need to contribute toward your children's post-secondary education, how are you expecting them to pay for it? If you and your wife made it clear that they need to get merit based scholarships, and grants?


It is actually quite easy to get grants for law school if you have good grades.

Just something to keep in mind. I don't know about other grad schools.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I have no intention of getting married until all of this is sorted out.


I thought you wrote earlier that you were getting married in December?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> I thought you wrote earlier that you were getting married in December?


I said "We agreed that we wanted to get married in December."

But you can BEST believe, if things are still like this, that won't be happening.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Then do yourself a big favor, however long you post here on TAM. *Stop lying. This is anonymous. There is nobody here to impress, nobody here who has expectations for you. This is a safe place to finally begin to practice giving credence, and expression, to your honest voice*. If you can't do it here, you're never going to be able to do it in real life. Use this board to your advantage, as a place to vent, talk, discuss, even help others, but do it all from a place of real honesty. It's not even about us, but about giving yourself the gift of having a place where you can truly be yourself, no matter what that looks like.


I agree :smthumbup:

But, if the habit of lying has become so deep-entrenched, sometimes it is very difficult to stop, as it has become a part of the personality, part of the auto reflex defense mechanism. Very difficult to undone, except with true willpower..


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You can check the website.
> 
> Look at the percentage of us on some sort of assistance.
> 
> ...


"Harvard Law School Grant and Loan assistance is awarded on the basis of demonstrated financial need. The School does not award “merit” or “full-ride” scholarships (which typically are not need-based) because these would reduce the resources available for need-based aid and significantly increase the debt burden of every financially needy student."

Welcome to Student Financial Services

:scratchhead:

If now they're giving money to people not in financial need I'll have to bring that subject up next time I get a phone call asking for a donation.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> "Harvard Law School Grant and Loan assistance is awarded on the basis of demonstrated financial need. The School does not award “merit” or “full-ride” scholarships (which typically are not need-based) because these would reduce the resources available for need-based aid and significantly increase the debt burden of every financially needy student."
> 
> Welcome to Student Financial Services
> 
> ...


No, the school doesn't give full rides. I've never heard of that.

But you don't get the money FROM the school. 

If you go on the Department of Education website, there is a really long list of private organizations that will give you money to go to law school. I kid you not, if it exists, there is pretty much a scholarship for it. You can get a scholarship for just being the right color with a certain GPA, or being from a certain place. 

It doesn't come from the school itself (it may in some cases).

Source: My father used to work the the DOE and he explained all of this to me when I was applying. I got a scholarship to college from a private company simply because I played violin. The money is out there, sometimes it it just hard to find. My cousins don't have money and that is pretty much (in combo with loans) how they went to law school.

Now, to be fair, these scholarships usually aren't much- but every little bit helps. 

I'm not very original with this law school thing.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I agree :smthumbup:
> 
> But, if the habit of lying has become so deep-entrenched, sometimes it is very difficult to stop, as it has become a part of the personality, part of the auto reflex defense mechanism. Very difficult to undone, except with true willpower..


That is not it at all, sadly.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't have any student loans (well, I think I may have a 5,000k stafford loan from college but like I'm gonna pay it).


A $5000 Stafford loan is still a student loan. But what did you mean by "but like I'm gonna pay it"? 



LittleBird said:


> I have a merit based scholarship, as well as some help from the folks.


Yea... I never had the luxury of my parents being able to help me with my education. I had to pay for my own, including keeping my grades up to be eligible for scholarships.



LittleBird said:


> Why that last bit? The sky is blue. Fact. I am a law student. Fact.
> 
> That's what I meant by technical, is all.


A technical truth is generally a half truth. Whether intentionally done or not, it implies the intent to mislead. So when you say "what I said is technically true", people interpret that as "I am stretching the truth to benefit myself.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> That is not it at all, sadly.


Unfortunately, it does looks like it, from our interaction so far. You yourself admit that you're a chameleon and you're doing it for your 'defense'. So it is difficult for us to see the truth behind all those mists, fogs and inconsistencies. 

I'd advise you to read and reread what Mrs. Lyris and Mr. Jaquen has told you earlier. It's not for their benefit, it's not for my benefit, but ultimately it's for your own benefit. This is a friendly forum where people who honestly seek solution for their marital and relationships problem could get different perspectives about their problem, and devise their own solution based on these new perspectives. If you genuinely and honestly look for solutions for your problem, this place is a good place to start.

But, If you keep on playing chameleon here, it's your choice, but it would seems like a road that is going nowhere, not to mention being disrespectful to these good people whom are genuinely trying to offer you their advice, not for their own gain but for your sake.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> A $5000 Stafford loan is still a student loan. But what did you mean by "but like I'm gonna pay it"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm pretty spoiled, Mariacha.

But if you want the truth, I'd trade it all for parents that had been somewhat interested in me. 

I guess nobody can have it all, though and practically speaking, it's better to have rich, disinterested parents. I guess.

And by pay it I mean, my dad made me take it out because he wanted me to learn about these things but he's going to pay it off for me. 

And thank you for that clarification, I was missing that.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Unfortunately, it does looks like it, from our interaction so far. You yourself admit that you're a chameleon and you're doing it for your 'defense'. So it is difficult for us to see the truth behind all those mists, fogs and inconsistencies.
> 
> I'd advise you to read and reread what Mrs. Lyris and Mr. Jaquen has told you earlier. It's not for their benefit, it's not for my benefit, but ultimately it's for your own benefit. This is a friendly forum where people who honestly seek solution for their marital and relationships problem could get different perspectives about their problem, and devise their own solution based on these new perspectives. If you genuinely and honestly look for solutions for your problem, this place is a good place to start.
> 
> But, If you keep on playing chameleon here, it's your choice, but it would seems like a road that is going nowhere, not to mention being disrespectful to these good people whom are genuinely trying to offer you their advice, not for their own gain but for your sake.


No disrespect towards Lyris or Jaquen.

They are not the the people I have problems with. 

They state intelligent, rational facts.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I guess nobody can have it all, though and practically speaking, it's better to have rich, disinterested parents. I guess.


Not true at all, on any level. I've known enough people raised by well off, disinterested, disconnected parents. They're some of the most screwed up people I have ever met.

Most human beings, throughout history, haven't been wealthy, rich, or anything in that ballpark. Wealth is not, and never has been, a requirement for healthy human development.

Best to have the interested, loving parents who have little, than the disinterested ones who have much. Real life bares this out time and again.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Not true at all, on any level. I've known enough people raised by well off, disinterested, disconnected parents. They're some of the most screwed up people I have ever met.
> 
> Most human beings, throughout history, haven't been wealthy, rich, or anything in that ballpark. Wealth is not, and never has been, a requirement for healthy human development.
> 
> Best to have the interested, loving parents who have little, than the disinterested ones who have much. Real life bares this out time and again.


Jaquen, leave me my little bit of denial will you? Because otherwise I have to admit my parents were ****ing awful. 

I am perfectly aware of that. But I have to try and see the silver lining. It's better than just saying "My parents didn't give a **** about me but they gave me lots of shiny objects." Lol.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Yes. I am a chameleon.
> 
> It's not meant to be a weapon.
> 
> ...


You don't need to explain it to me. I've known plenty of people just like you in this regard, including my late mother-in-law.

It doesn't matter what you want, or what you intend, or even why you are the way you are. What matters is what you *do*. I actually believe you when you say you don't want to cause harm to anyone. 

But that's not the point. You *are* doing bad things, whether you intend to or not. You are lying. You are planning to marry someone you don't respect. You are taking money from people you have no feelings for. 

If you truly have no feelings for anyone other than your fiance, if that is the absolute truth and not another one of your exaggerations or lies, then that is very frightening. It's not cool. It's not interestingly damaged. It means you have a severe attachment disorder, and the thought of you having your own children is chilling. 

And it seems you don't actually know what the truth is, what living in an honest way is:

- It's being truthful about who you are, and how you feel to people around you and what you want, _for you_.

- It's not taking money from people you despise.

- It's not exaggerating or twisting the truth to support an argument. For example, way back at the beginning of your other thread you said you made your fiance's clothes from scratch. This gives a very different impression than if you had said you knitted him the occasional sweater for Christmas, which is obviously closer to the truth. In another thread you said you were dirt broke. Obviously you're not, it was another exaggeration, you just meant you have less money than you need to live your current life. 

- and the biggest one of all, it's digging down under all the layers of people-pleasing and excuses and defences and being brave enough to face the truth of who you really are and what you really want. You say you don't know if you have a core, I think you probably do, somewhere hidden from yourself. 

It's interesting how often you mention posters here not liking you, or people in the real world liking you, because you blend in so well. You seem very invested in being likeable in that surface kind of way. I don't like you or not like you. I don't know you. And I think probably no-one really knows you because you don't really know yourself.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> You don't need to explain it to me. I've known plenty of people just like you in this regard, including my late mother-in-law.
> 
> It doesn't matter what you want, or what you intend, or even why you are the way you are. What matters is what you *do*. I actually believe you when you say you don't want to cause harm to anyone.
> 
> ...


Lyris, I was the kid on the playground who nobody wanted to play with. So I will admit I have an interest in being liked or at least not disliked. That is why I adopted a reactive, neutral personality...it's the easiest way to be liked. Observation, adaption. 

I realize that's not healthy...I'm just being honest.

And yes, the only person I love is my fiancé. Who else would I love? 

My parents were....awful. I'm sorry, I'm tired of sugar coating. They sucked. They ignored me and left me with hired help. I saw my father maybe 12 times between the ages of 0 and 5. They only began to take an interest in me once they realized I was "exceptionally bright" or whatever such nonsense was written on my report card. 

I don't know if that means severe attachment disorders or if just means that they did nothing to deserve my love.

I have a strange sort of affection for my abuser...I wouldn't call it like. Rather, I appreciate some of the insight he gave me. I was naive bordering on stupid. Actually no- I was stupid. At the very least, he snapped me out of that. 

And as for strangers, I actually really like strangers. I was that 2 year old you had to stop from walking up to people and hugging them...except I did that until I was 14. Sadly, that isn't an exaggeration. That's the truth. 

The rest of it I admit to, in varying degrees. I will say I think I've give you the wrong impression...neither the sweet little bo peep nor the greedy child are lies. They are both part of me. 

I do knit sweaters.

And I do fundamentally dislike his parents, mostly because they've called me some rather ugly names based on things out of my control. 

And I do have one or two (or three hundred) issues. 

It's all true. I just may choose to focus on one or the other, depending on what time of day you ask me. 

In any case, I didn't realize how bad it was coming off. So for that I'm sorry. 

Truly, you have my apology. 

And as for the children....I love children. If I could live in a world full of nothing but children and puppies, I'd do it in a heart beat.

I'm not a huge fan of anyone over the age of 10.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Lyris, I was the kid on the playground who nobody wanted to play with. So I will admit I have an interest in being liked or at least not disliked. That is why I adopted a reactive, neutral personality...it's the easiest way to be liked. Observation, adaption.
> 
> I realize that's not healthy...I'm just being honest.
> 
> And yes, the only person I love is my fiancé. Who else would I love?


Siblings? Friends? You didn't say 'love' in your other post, btw. You said 'have feelings for' 



> My parents were....awful. I'm sorry, I'm tired of sugar coating. They sucked. They ignored me and left me with hired help. I saw my father maybe 12 times between the ages of 0 and 5. They only began to take an interest in me once they realized I was "exceptionally bright" or whatever such nonsense was written on my report card.
> 
> I don't know if that means severe attachment disorders or if just means that they did nothing to deserve my love.


Parents don't do anything to deserve love from babies and small children, exactly, in the sense that a judgement is made. If they aren't warm, responsive and loving then there is a good chance the child won't attach properly. That's probably what happened to you.



> I have a strange sort of affection for my abuser...I wouldn't call it like. Rather, I appreciate some of the insight he gave me. I was naive bordering on stupid. Actually no- I was stupid. At the very least, he snapped me out of that.
> 
> *And as for strangers, I actually really like strangers. I was that 2 year old you had to stop from walking up to people and hugging them...except I did that until I was 14. Sadly, that isn't an exaggeration. That's the truth. *


I can absolutely believe that is the truth since it is one of the classic symptoms of attachment disorder. In fact, it's one of the most telling things you've written. It's not a personality trait, it's a symptom.



> The rest of it I admit to, in varying degrees. I will say I think I've give you the wrong impression...neither the sweet little bo peep nor the greedy child are lies. They are both part of me.
> 
> I do knit sweaters.
> 
> ...


You might want to work on that before your own children hit 10, then.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Siblings? Friends? You didn't say 'love' in your other post, btw. You said 'have feelings for'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I'm sorry. You are right, I misread what you wrote. 

Feelings for?

That's a hard one.

My friends? Eh, I like them. But I wouldn't cry if they got hit by a bus. I don't want them to get hit by a bus, it would be sad. And I would make food for the funeral. But I doubt I'd be that upset. 

That's pretty much my attitude toward most of humanity.

I don't wish them any harm. In fact, I'd prevent that harm if I could. But I'm not the type to cry or think about it for more than a few hours to a day. 

Oh, I forgot to mention I have a little brother. He's not the brightest but he is a boy. Asian mom...died of joy when she had a boy. He was always the favorite. They always made sure to come home for his birthdays. 

I can't say I'm jealous though because I don't really like to be around my family.

Do I love him? Honestly...no. He's a cute kid, though. I bought him tennis shoes for Christmas. 

Every once in a while, I'll become really fond of someone. Abnormally fond. This is normally when I make it a point to distance myself. I'm not about to be that kid on the Subway walking up to strangers again. My parents sent my ass to therapy for that and guess what? I stopped. Because I hated therapy. 

I changed a fundamental personality flaw because I didn't like the result. That's pretty much how I operate. On a system of trial and error. I figure by the time I'm 40, I'll be really good at it. 

I can't say why my fiancé is the only person I am genuinely attached to. Probably because he was the one and only person who talked to me as a child and wasn't paid to do it. 

But I don't think it is that simple. I really do love him. 

And I'd never hurt a child. It's just I tend to get along best with the young ones. 

If you're nice to them, they love you. It really is that simple. I like that, I can understand that. I can empathize with that. 

When it gets more complicated than that, you start to lose me.

Once again, this is all total honesty. It sounds bad but it's the truth.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

saracole said:


> My husband can leave anytime he wants. This isn't Alcatraz!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I can't believe I missed this. Same goes for my fiancé...he knows where the door is.

It's right there. I didn't hide it beneath my evil cloak of invisibility. 

:lol:


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Ah hell!

Okay...we got first daughter issues in a half Asian household

We got race issues on steroids not only with the finance's family but also within your own...

We got (one presumes) immigration issues re Mom (not sure)

We got stress to succeed issues.

We got disfavored daughter issues.

We got marrying into status issues (forget the money)

We got rape/abuse issues.

Jesus Christ on a Pogo stick!

(Granted, this is all based on if you are telling the truth. I don't really care much one way or another.)

Folks...bear this in mind. If she was as averse to negativity as some have insinuated, she'd have bailed a long time ago. I would have.

So...a bit of credit where credit is due. She's been taking her lumps.

Eh. We are all messes. Littlebird you are a can of worms. See if you can at least get them lined up and pulling in the right direction.

Bear this in mind: Fiance is SAFE. You know him. He's a nice lump to spend time with who is safe company as long as you give him some regular...um...sex.

Kids are SAFE. They are small. They are non-sexual. They tend to be very accepting of strangers.

You need to find ways to have close relationships with 'NON safe' people...because they will always be the majority. 

Don't know how. Really can't advise. My family has had...some of the issues that you are going through (though, sadly, not having to deal with insane gobs of money...)

Identify the problems and figure out some healthy ways to deal with them.

Every man who 'wants' you isn't a rapist.

Every woman who resents you or seems distant isn't your mother.

Not sure what else to say.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Ah hell!
> 
> Okay...we got first daughter issues in a half Asian household
> 
> ...


Thank you...thank you.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Oh, I'm sorry. You are right, I misread what you wrote.
> 
> Feelings for?
> 
> ...


 applause 

I could relate to that. You reminds me of a song by Eric Burdon, it goes like this:

"...But I'm just a soul whose intentions are good...Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood ..."

Just keep being honest, no more chameleoning around, and I am sure it will do you good.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I can absolutely believe that is the truth since it is one of the classic symptoms of attachment disorder. In fact, it's one of the most telling things you've written. It's not a personality trait, it's a symptom.


Side note:
Mrs. Lyris, are you a professional counsellor or psychiatrist? 

Your powers of observation are admirable.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Why that last bit? The sky is blue. Fact. I am a law student. Fact.
> 
> That's what I meant by technical, is all.


Then why say technical. They are facts. If someone tells me they are 'technically not lying' I take that as telling me the truth, but not telling me all the details.

For example, Joe Blow gets killed in a back alley, and Jane Doe is accused of killing him. She says, "No I didn't kill him."

Turns out she didn't kill him, but Jim Doe did, and she handed him the gun after loading it, then watched as Joe Blow gets shot four times.

So she's technically telling the truth, but is leaving out a lot of information that she knows which would paint the whole story.



jaquen said:


> Because the vast majority of teenagers can not afford to spend potentially tens of thousands of dollars on post-secondary education. That's sort of like wondering why a bank won't give a 17 year old a home loan.
> 
> If you feel you don't need to contribute toward your children's post-secondary education, how are you expecting them to pay for it? If you and your wife made it clear that they need to get merit based scholarships, and grants?


I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree. I expect my kids to get through their education the same way I did, get a loan, get a job or find other means to make the money (such as scholarships). Yes, it takes a long time to repay loans, that's the price you pay. They are the ones getting the education and benefiting from it, not me, so they should shoulder the burden of the cost associated with it. As I said, I did it on my own, and I wouldn't change it. It made me respect things a lot more when I was footing the bill.

As I said, I have very little means to pay for any of my children to go to post-secondary schooling. Due to a divorce, a job transfer, my fiancee going back to school and some unforseen financial issues, we are barely keeping our heads above water. So it's just not possible. But as I said before, even if it were possible, I'd still expect them to shoulder the burden for finding the financial resourses to make it work. Call me callous, but it's part of life.



LittleBird said:


> I kid you not, if it exists, there is pretty much a scholarship for it.


While I wouldn't go as far as you do in this statement, I agree, there is a large volume of scholarships available.



LittleBird said:


> I guess nobody can have it all, though and practically speaking, it's better to have rich, disinterested parents. I guess.


I'm curious as to why you feel that way.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Then why say technical. They are facts. If someone tells me they are 'technically not lying' I take that as telling me the truth, but not telling me all the details.
> 
> For example, Joe Blow gets killed in a back alley, and Jane Doe is accused of killing him. She says, "No I didn't kill him."
> 
> ...


I don't actually feel that way. 

But I tell myself that a lot at family dinners to get from banging my head against the china until it bleeds.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't actually feel that way.
> 
> But I tell myself that a lot at family dinners to get from banging my head against the china until it bleeds.


This isn't a family dinner. If you want help here, tell the truth. Always.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree. I expect my kids to get through their education the same way I did, get a loan, get a job or find other means to make the money (such as scholarships). Yes, it takes a long time to repay loans, that's the price you pay. They are the ones getting the education and benefiting from it, not me, so they should shoulder the burden of the cost associated with it. As I said, I did it on my own, and I wouldn't change it. It made me respect things a lot more when I was footing the bill.


:iagree:
My son's scholarships have paid for most of his school so I've happily chipped in the remainder and no loans needed. Last semester however he got lazy and flunked a class therefore this semester he had to get a student loan for what scholarships didn't cover. I told him I'll still chip again *once the semester is complete*. I'll not pay a class he doesn't try in. I bet he'll pass them all this semester. Even though I'm helping out, I agree 100% with you KF that it's not an obligation and he needs to appreciate that he's getting it. Actually me paying up front partially enabled him to take less responsibility in the grade.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> :iagree:
> My son's scholarships have paid for most of his school so I've happily chipped in the remainder and no loans needed. Last semester however he got lazy and flunked a class therefore this semester he had to get a student loan for what scholarships didn't cover. I told him I'll still chip again *once the semester is complete*. I'll not pay a class he doesn't try in. I bet he'll pass them all this semester. Even though I'm helping out, I agree 100% with you KF that it's not an obligation and he needs to appreciate that he's getting it. Actually me paying up front partially enabled him to take less responsibility in the grade.


My parents told if if I got anything below an A-, they'd stop paying for my schooling because 

"I'm not going to waste money on a child who is dim."


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My parents told if if I got anything below an A-, they'd stop paying for my schooling because
> 
> "I'm not going to waste money on a child who is dim."


Let me guess...that was mom.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I hope that, as a parent, I would be willing and able to help send my child to school. My parents have done more for my younger brother than they ever have for me, and I tried for over a year to find a job, to no avail. My college tuition was expensive, and because I was married, I was able to get grants, but that was only for my Associates. I wanted a higher education, but couldn't afford it. Moreover, the career I wanted took a nose dive right before my first term at the University, and I had to choose: spend thousands of dollars in student loans(and I tried to scholarships...didn't get any, even though I had a 3.8 GPA), or not go to the University. Unfortunately, I had to back out of my classes. 

I don't ever want a lack of money to define my child's choices in life. I'm certainly not going to baby them, buy them cars, pay for their rent or anything, but college is absolutely one thing that I hope and pray to God with all my might I'll be able to help with.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Understandable C2W.

To be fair, the reason I will not provide any assistance is because I just can't. Maybe a few hundred dollars, but that's it, and that wouldn't cover more than a few textbooks. If I did have money, I would be willing to loan them some, interest free, to work towards their career, but it would be understood that it is to be repaid, in full, and not 20 years later either.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

As far as college expenses, all I can say is Thank God for the GI Bill.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Understandable C2W.
> 
> To be fair, the reason I will not provide any assistance is because I just can't. Maybe a few hundred dollars, but that's it, and that wouldn't cover more than a few textbooks. If I did have money, I would be willing to loan them some, interest free, to work towards their career, but it would be understood that it is to be repaid, in full, and not 20 years later either.


My parents say that the only payment they ask for 400,000 + education they have fronted me ( I don't even think that includes my over priced, smug prep school) is for me to never, ever ask them for another cent once I graduate.

"At the very least for all of that money, you can afford a gym membership. Get that body in check and find a rich classmate to marry."

My mother is truly a fountain of wisdom. 

I offered to pay them back and they said "What would be the point of that? You're going to get everything when we die, anyway. That would be like recycling money."

Well, I guess there...they do have a point.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

If you have a brother, one which apparently your mom adores greatly, how are you getting everything? Did they cut him out of the will? If so, how is he so highly adored yet given nothing? Seems contradictory in my opinion.

And if they gave you your education (which I assume means the college you are in now) AND $400,000 how are you having any financial difficulties?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> If you have a brother, one which apparently your mom adores greatly, how are you getting everything? Did they cut him out of the will? If so, how is he so highly adored yet given nothing? Seems contradictory in my opinion.
> 
> And if they gave you your education (which I assume means the college you are in now) AND $400,000 how are you having any financial difficulties?



No, no no they did NOT give me 400k! I wish. That's the total average cost of my college/law school bill.

They don't give me spending money, I have a job for that. The "plus" was not meant to be an "and" rather a 400k+. 

And my brother is still in the will but he can't get any of the money until he is 30, I'm in charge of it (once I turn 21) until then in the event of their death. My brother doesn't get the money until he is a lot older because frankly, he's exhibited some rather dangerous behavior (can you say reform school?). 

No, we're both still in the will. "Everything" is to go to both of us.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying and my apologizes for misreading the + sign.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

You're not going to off them all, are you? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Thoreau said:


> You're not going to off them all, are you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She hasn't finished law school yet, so she may not be quite sinister enough. 

Edit: I may have been mistaken.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> You're not going to off them all, are you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've considered it but actually, they have the potential to make a few more million dollars before they die. Father just got a promotion and Mother is thinking about starting to practice law again.

It'd be stupid to kill them now.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> And my brother is still in the will but he can't get any of the money until he is 30, I'm in charge of it (once I turn 21) until then in the event of their death. My brother doesn't get the money until he is a lot older because frankly, he's exhibited some rather dangerous behavior (can you say reform school?).
> 
> No, we're both still in the will. "Everything" is to go to both of us.


The dilema of wanting kids to have more than we had growing up. Give too freely early on and then resent them for not appreciating it later on. Yours and your brother's situation is common among children of new money.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> The dilema of wanting kids to have more than we had growing up. Give too freely early on and then resent them for not appreciating it later on. Yours and your brother's situation is common among children of new money.


My father shared a bedroom with four brothers growing up. He took out loans for college and got his company to pay for his grad school.

It's less that I don't appreciate the money and more that I don't appreciate them.

They weren't great parents. They were great ATM machines.

ALSO: I LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE. I could not possibly agree with you more. My parents would always laugh their asses off whenever I brought home an "I tried" medal. In life, there is no prize for trying.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> In life, there is no prize for trying.


Wrong. Most of the relationships here that have troubles would be fixed if one person or the other tried harder.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Side note:
> Mrs. Lyris, are you a professional counsellor or psychiatrist?
> 
> Your powers of observation are admirable.


Thank you. That's nice of you to say.

No, I'm not a professional counsellor or anything. I have qualifications and experience in a related field, but I would need to do further study to qualify as a psychologist. Right now, we can't afford that, and we may never have that as a priority, seeing as we have two daughters who we want to help as much as we can. 

I just read and think a lot. And observe.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Wrong. Most of the relationships here that have troubles would be fixed if one person or the other tried harder.


The participation trophy thing is kind of a joke, though.

Lmfao.

Go try to get a good job having graduated at the bottom of your class from a mediocre college and tell them "But I tried."

It totally sends the wrong message to kids. There is a 1st place in life and sugar coating that serves no purpose.

Life is going to give everyone the memo sooner or later.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I do agree to an extent. That said, I always tell my kids that as long as they try their best, that's all I ask, because from what I've gleaned from life, those who try their best and those who finish first are often the same person.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> The participation trophy thing is kind of a joke, though.
> 
> Lmfao.
> 
> ...


I have gone from not even finishing high school to owning a business, qualifications aren't the only way to get on in life.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> I have gone from not even finishing high school to owning a business, qualifications aren't the only way to get on in life.


Oh this I know.

But the participation trophy basically tells people it's okay to come in last, you still get a reward.

When in reality, you don't.

Send the kid home without a trophy and I bet you if he really wants one, he'll try harder next time.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Wrong. Most of the relationships here that have troubles would be fixed if one person or the other tried harder.


I don't think she was referring to relationships. My signature certainly isn't.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

abitlost said:


> I have gone from not even finishing high school to owning a business, qualifications aren't the only way to get on in life.


Ditto, street smarts can get you a long ways too!


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree. I expect my kids to get through their education the same way I did, get a loan, get a job or find other means to make the money (such as scholarships). Yes, it takes a long time to repay loans, that's the price you pay. They are the ones getting the education and benefiting from it, not me, so they should shoulder the burden of the cost associated with it. As I said, I did it on my own, and I wouldn't change it. It made me respect things a lot more when I was footing the bill.


I guess this is tough for me to process because I went to a prestigious, very expensive university. I transferred in after completing the first two years at a great, dirt cheap community college, but still my education, with room/board, cost over a tenth of a million dollars, for just 5 semesters. Even with my scholarships, work study, and Staffort/Perkins loans in my name, my parents still had to chip in, and they still had to take out a hefty loan. 

So for students who actually manage to get into a top school, here in the states at least, it's just not possible to tell them to go out and "get a loan"; banks to give that kind of capital to teenagers. That's definitely more realistic for kids going to mid-level, bargain, and community colleges. They'd have an easier time cobbling together the capital via government loans, grants, and scholarships. And even for a lot of them, with university being so expensive, it's a long shot that they can do it on their own in this day and age. 

But if your kid is a high achiever, or very talented, and manages to get into an MIT, Yale, Brown, Carnegie Mellon, NYU, Harvard, etc? 

Perhaps it's different in Canada?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But if your kid is a high achiever, or very talented, and manages to get into an MIT, Yale, Brown, Carnegie Mellon, NYU, Harvard, etc?
> 
> Perhaps it's different in Canada?


At the risk of starting a really big flame war...

I don't think the big name colleges are, in general, good value for the money - and I was a high achiever who had to foot the bill for my entire education as well with two in college right now.

Unless you want to play in the land of Presidential politics, spending Ivy League dollars on your college education is for most of us a huge waste of money. You can get a less prestigious but only very marginally lower quality education at your local state school. Unless that Harvard diploma on the wall is the be-all and end-all of your educational aspirations, you would do well to reconsider the need for such a large debt. 

My daughter got in to one of the most prestigious private schools in our state, but we all agreed that the $40k annual tuition (not including room and board) was beyond reasonable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/b...ration-with-heavy-debt.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

That is, of course, just my opinion.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> At the risk of starting a really big flame war...
> 
> I don't think the big name colleges are, in general, good value for the money - and I was a high achiever who had to foot the bill for my entire education as well with two in college right now.
> 
> ...


*Shrugs*. Went to one of the best places for my craft in the world, loved it, the connections run deep, the training was stellar, and I don't regret it one bit.

It's all a personal matter. If you're happy with where you go, if you go at all, and it works for you, it's all good.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I guess this is tough for me to process because I went to a prestigious, very expensive university. I transferred in after completing the first two years at a great, dirt cheap community college, but still my education, with room/board, cost over a tenth of a million dollars, for just 5 semesters. Even with my scholarships, work study, and Staffort/Perkins loans in my name, my parents still had to chip in, and they still had to take out a hefty loan.


Starting at a technical school and transferring is very helpful. My son completed his first two years at a local technical school with a bridge program and a big reason for that is that he chose that to keep me and his mother from footing so much expense. It's good your parents were able and willing to help you.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Starting at a technical school and transferring is very helpful. My son completed his first two years at a local technical school with a bridge program and a big reason for that is that he chose that to keep me and his mother from footing so much expense. It's good your parents were able and willing to help you.


I'm a huge advocate for community colleges. I turned my nose up at them as a highschooler, like most everyone did. Took a year off after HS, had the worst year of my life, and was so humbled that I was practically dying to go to a CC the next year.

One of the best decisions I ever made. The college had a lot of adjunct faculty who taught at major universities, so you had access to some fine teachers. And because there really are no real pressures at that level, the sky was the limit for however far you wanted to take it, without a ton of competition. I started my professional career from contacts through that school, was on the board of so many clubs, learned to deal with budgeting for organizations, made lifelong friends, practically rebuilt the theatre department from scratch, and learned so, so much, about myself, about life, education, everything. It was an _amazing_ experience. I hope to go back one day and shoot a commercial, if they'll allow me. I can't advocate hard enough the merits of affordable, accessible education.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I guess this is tough for me to process because I went to a prestigious, very expensive university. I transferred in after completing the first two years at a great, dirt cheap community college, but still my education, with room/board, cost over a tenth of a million dollars, for just 5 semesters. Even with my scholarships, work study, and Staffort/Perkins loans in my name, my parents still had to chip in, and they still had to take out a hefty loan.
> 
> So for students who actually manage to get into a top school, here in the states at least, it's just not possible to tell them to go out and "get a loan"; banks to give that kind of capital to teenagers. That's definitely more realistic for kids going to mid-level, bargain, and community colleges. They'd have an easier time cobbling together the capital via government loans, grants, and scholarships. And even for a lot of them, with university being so expensive, it's a long shot that they can do it on their own in this day and age.
> 
> ...


You are talking to a girl who went to one of those schools. 

God, they rip you a big fat new one. And I mean *rip* you. 

Even my parents blinked twice. 

Harvard isn't *as* expensive but the law school sure is (with good reason.) 

I think part of is that you are paying for the name. 

In the states, sometimes a diploma is only as good as the labelled paper it is written on. 

In certain fields, it really does matter where you went and who you know.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> *Shrugs*. Went to one of the best places for my craft in the world, loved it, the connections run deep, the training was stellar, and I don't regret it one bit.
> 
> It's all a personal matter. If you're happy with where you go, if you go at all, and it works for you, it's all good.


My mother is the super snob. She grew up with money.

My dad went where he could afford to go for undergrad and stepped up to the Ivy League for graduate school. That Wharton diploma, I have to say, is TOTALLY worth the money ten times over 20 years down the line.

So actually, he wasn't too thrilled about a 200k education for college. 

He suggested one of the cheaper schools on my list and my mother screamed like a BANSHEE.

"We are NOT telling the neighbors she goes THERE." 

Honestly, I liked my undergraduate education. I didn't choose the "best" school on that list, I didn't want to spend possibly 5/6/7 years at Harvard. No thank you. I knew I'd end up here for law and to be honest, it's actually kind of a miserable place. 

I had my fun though. Now it IS about the paper slip with the stamp on it. 

The law market is **** at the moment and if I didn't go big, I wasn't putting in the effort to go at all.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> At the risk of starting a really big flame war...
> 
> I don't think the big name colleges are, in general, good value for the money - and I was a high achiever who had to foot the bill for my entire education as well with two in college right now.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you. I started out at one of the state universities here because I had financial aid that helped out tremendously. My parents were financially unable to help me. They weren't even able to get a loan to help. I had to take care of it all myself. I got scholarships, Pell grant, and the rest in Stafford loans. One year, I even had to take out a Perkins loan. But I had to cover my own education from the time I turned 18. 

As I stated, I started at a university, but it was too expensive after two years there. Plus, there were things I needed to deal with at home. So, my third year in college, I went to a community college. It took me longer than two years because I was going part time during some of it. I ended up getting an associate degree. I may or may not go back to school once the youngest has started school. We'll see.

My point is that I truly believe, as Cletus said, that there is nothing wrong with schools like Michigan State or University of Michigan, or even any other "lesser" universities. I'd prefer a doctor who graduated from U of M with an A than one who graduated from Yale with a C.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Totally agree with you. I started out at one of the state universities here because I had financial aid that helped out tremendously. My parents were financially unable to help me. They weren't even able to get a loan to help. I had to take care of it all myself. I got scholarships, Pell grant, and the rest in Stafford loans. One year, I even had to take out a Perkins loan. But I had to cover my own education from the time I turned 18.
> 
> As I stated, I started at a university, but it was too expensive after two years there. Plus, there were things I needed to deal with at home. So, my third year in college, I went to a community college. It took me longer than two years because I was going part time during some of it. I ended up getting an associate degree. I may or may not go back to school once the youngest has started school. We'll see.
> 
> My point is that I truly believe, as Cletus said, that there is nothing wrong with schools like Michigan State or University of Michigan, or even any other "lesser" universities. I'd prefer a doctor who graduated from U of M with an A than one who graduated from Yale with a C.


U Michigan is a really good school. 

I know nothing about Michigan State.

I'm sorry but if I have never heard of your school, I'm not letting you stick me with anything. Fact of. 

Doesn't have to be Harvard but I have to know you aren't gonna kill me. 

:rofl:


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm sorry but if I have never heard of your school, I'm not letting you stick me with anything. Fact of.
> :rofl:


This went over my head. Care to elaborate?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> This went over my head. Care to elaborate?


If I'm doing research to get a new doctor and I see "University of Podunk"...I'm going to keep scrolling down until I see a school that I am comfortable with.

No, it's not really fair.

But I'm not going to just try out three or four surgeons until I get it right.

I'm going to take a guess based on what I know.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If I'm doing research to get a new doctor and I see "University of Podunk"...I'm going to keep scrolling down until I see a school that I am comfortable with.
> 
> No, it's not really fair.
> 
> ...


Sigh,.... I didn't say MSU doctor. I said IN GENERAL, I'd take someone who went to a "lesser" school (which I am at least familiar with) who got an A than someone who went to a "prestigious" school and got a C. I said U of M and Yale as examples of a doctor. Never mentioned MSU for doctor.

And of course you shop around for a doctor. Yes, U of M has a great medical school, but you have to admit that there ARE people out there who say "Yale or nothing" or "Harvard or nothing" or even "Johns Hopkins or nothing"...I'm not like that. I know that there are excellent people in various fields, not just medical, who come out of "lesser" schools. My point is to not discount those lesser schools. And with the internet, you can find out about those other schools.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If I'm doing research to get a new doctor and I see "University of Podunk"...I'm going to keep scrolling down until I see a school that I am comfortable with.
> 
> No, it's not really fair.
> 
> ...


Wasn't sure. So my thoughts. The huge benefits of ivy league or prestigious schools are the connections and the salaries aquired from the degree. Not so much the education from what I've read. Actually the first link found cnbc stated this. So going to a nicer school makes sense if you have the option. 

Filtering doctors based on it however doesn't always make sense as the best doctors are well respected within their fields and recognized by the industry therefore easy to research. Even the ones from podunk have the opportunity to be widely respected.


----------



## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

What is this all about? I just read the last page and looks like we debating on college instead of marriage...

So here it is, did my 4 year from a state university nobody heard about that school, I can guarantee. Got a job couple months before the graduation 50k... In 5 years 100k, 12 years 150k. Changed company 3 times...point is, lot of Places don't care where you graduated from especially area where we have shortage of workforce.


Nobody gave me any money, so I am thinking I am not paying any money to my kid, well may be a little.

When I was young my kindergarten teacher asked what I wanted to be when I grow up, I told them I wanted to be happy. Teacher told me that I had not understood the question, I told her you did not understand the life.

That was John Lennon. 

I have done everything I could do to make my marriage happy. There is no financial problem, no adultery, nothing. I go to work, work hard, come home, spend time with baby, do household work. Take family to vacation frequently. I am funny, go to gym 4 times a week. But I am walking on egg shell constantly. Nothing is good enough. Everyday I hear what I did not do. I have given up.

My apology for digressing.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

PeaceTrain said:


> I have done everything I could do to make my marriage happy. There is no financial problem, no adultery, nothing. I go to work, work hard, come home, spend time with baby, do household work. Take family to vacation frequently. I am funny, go to gym 4 times a week. But I am walking on egg shell constantly. Nothing is good enough. Everyday I hear what I did not do. I have given up.
> 
> My apology for digressing.


Does she work? Are you doing your share or are you doing you share plus some of hers? It's seems that she's not happy and she resents you for it or maybe she just doesn't respect you. You can do something about this by being zero tolerent to disrespect and not accepting that you are her source of happiness. Basically you respect her and you don't allow anything less. There's materials to read out there but it's hard to know which would be more helpful without more detail.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

My community college was and is amazing. Some of the best teachers I have ever met teach there, and they made me want to be a teacher for a short period of time. My Writing and Intro to Literature: Fiction teacher was absolutely phenomenal. She genuinely cared about the students and spent time in her office every week talking to those who wanted to talk to her. She talked to my husband and I for the better part of an hour, and not even on school stuff! Loved that women. One of my heroes.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Thank you. That's nice of you to say.
> 
> No, I'm not a professional counsellor or anything. I have qualifications and experience in a related field, but I would need to do further study to qualify as a psychologist. Right now, we can't afford that, and we may never have that as a priority, seeing as we have two daughters who we want to help as much as we can.
> 
> I just read and think a lot. And observe.


Ah, so I assume you're a police investigator? or a social worker? Because you seem to have a deep knowledge in the behavioral sciences.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I don't think she was referring to relationships. My signature certainly isn't.


Maybe she wasn't, but to say trying doesn't mean anything in essence is wrong, IMO. And I didn't reference your sig.



jaquen said:


> I guess this is tough for me to process because I went to a prestigious, very expensive university. I transferred in after completing the first two years at a great, dirt cheap community college, but still my education, with room/board, cost over a tenth of a million dollars, for just 5 semesters. Even with my scholarships, work study, and Staffort/Perkins loans in my name, my parents still had to chip in, and they still had to take out a hefty loan.
> 
> So for students who actually manage to get into a top school, here in the states at least, it's just not possible to tell them to go out and "get a loan"; banks to give that kind of capital to teenagers. That's definitely more realistic for kids going to mid-level, bargain, and community colleges. They'd have an easier time cobbling together the capital via government loans, grants, and scholarships. And even for a lot of them, with university being so expensive, it's a long shot that they can do it on their own in this day and age.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is, I'm unaware of what the differences are between Canada and the US on this matter.

Frankly I agree with what others have said. Yes, in an ideal world, my kid would get a degree from say Harvard than from the local community college, but in today's workforce, a diploma and a GPA of 3.8 looks damn close to as good if it comes from either school. I didn't go to a prestigious Canada university either, but I've never had anyone to my knowledge use where I went to school against me in deciding if I was worthy of the job or not. I supposed if I was hiring and it came down to two candidates I feel are equal after the interview process and all that, I'd go with the better degree, but usually you seperate the better candidate through your own hiring process that is geared towards your own business/field.

It may be different for certain fields that I'm unaware of (a doctor from John Hopkins for example) but in general, I don't believe that the name of the school you go to will have any major impact on your career outside of maybe your placement straight out of university or the contacts you make at the university. To me, your career will be marked far more by the effort you put in and the results you provide in the long haul, regardless of where you graduate from.



Thundarr said:


> Starting at a technical school and transferring is very helpful. My son completed his first two years at a local technical school with a bridge program and a big reason for that is that he chose that to keep me and his mother from footing so much expense. It's good your parents were able and willing to help you.


It's what my step-daughter was going to do as well here, before they had to cancel the courses she was going to take (long story).

In many fields, the first year or two is more basic studies before getting more focus towards the field you are working towards in the last 2-3 years. That's when you need to focus more on the school which is best suited for your needs and goals.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, dear Miss LittleBird, Mrs. Lyris, Mr. Jacquen, Mr. Kingsfan, Mrs. Created2Write, Mr. Thundarr and other distinguished Forum members,

Since this thread has gone to 61 pages, I would like to bring into your attention that the original question was *"Neither party can have it all, so why not accept what is good enough?"* in relation to incompatible sexual desire. 

What started as a way for Mrs. Honeysuckle to find justification for her way of thinking, slowly evolve into a virtual psychoanalysis of Miss LittleBird, and then mutated into a discourse into Western Education system.

Not to say that the discussions aren't interesting, enlightening and entertaining, I actually like them all 

But, to return back to the original question...

Would you guys agree, that even when there is libido incompatibility, but if:

(1) the LD partner gave serious effort to fullfill his/her HD partner sexual needs to the best of his/her ability, with his/her entire sincerity, seriousness and attention, without feeling resentful, without thinking about "all other things I'd rather be doing than this", then the HD partner should be grateful and enjoy it?

(2) The HD partner must also make every effort possible, with her/his entire sincerity, to make the experience enjoyable to the LD partner, knowing that the LD partner doing it out of love and willingness to satisfy her/him?

(3) That long-term, mutually acceptable compromise is always better than being selfish? (being selfish, like, LD partner uses every available trick to avoid having sex with HD partner, or HD partner keeps on demanding "great sex" while she/he fully knows that her/his LD partner could only manage to give "good sex")

..then we can give a resounding YES to the original question?


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> What started as a way for Mrs. Honeysuckle to find justification for her way of thinking, slowly evolve into a virtual psychoanalysis of Miss LittleBird, and then mutated into a discourse into Western Education system.
> 
> Would you guys agree, that even when there is libido incompatibility, but if:
> 
> ...


1). Yes I think HD should *try to be grateful and enjoy* it but maybe it's not enough. The sincere effort has to count for something on both sides.

2). Yes. I most always initiate and have no problem with that unlike so many others. I want her to enjoy it as well so I put forth effort to make sure she does. On occasion, she's taken medication that would prevent O which may be quickie time.

3). Yes you're stating the obvious with this one. Life is about moderation, balance, and compromise. When both sides do this it works out fine. This particular issue often has both sides digging into postured stances of opposition though.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

I think the consensus is that the HD person should not expect the LD person to be dripping with lust and roaring like a banshee when the HD person approaches them for sex.

Rather, they should accept the sex if given with love and enthusiasm and not nit pick and question "where" the sex is coming from. If a man approaches his wife for sex and she consents because she loves him and wants to make him happy, he should not get angry with her for not becoming the sex fairy dripping with lust and screaming like a blonde haired porno star. Moods and desires are not going to match up perfectly every time, so it is unfair to go "I want you to be just as horny as I am." If you want to bone and she wants to be close with you, don't split hairs. 

And as for the LD partner, they should not radiate an air of boredom or discontent. They shouldn't lie there like a board and think of England. They should participate (within reason, I don't think it is necessarily fair to expect the LD person to be up for a sex marathon including oral, etc. every time the HD person wants it) and make some effort to enjoy it. If it is not enjoyable, they should make that clear in a respectful, calm manner and explain how it could be better for them. 

I think this is more or less, a very reasonable solution. If the HD partner can't get over the fact that their partner isn't a horny sex machine and if the LD person can't make an effort, nothing is going to get fixed.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

61 pages in and I still stand by every word I said on page 1.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Some good comments from Mr. Thundarr and Miss Bird:



> "... The sincere effort has to count for something on both sides....Life is about moderation, balance, and compromise. When both sides do this it works out fine... "
> 
> "..For the LD partner, they should not radiate an air of boredom or discontent. They shouldn't lie there like a board and think of England. They should participate...and make some effort to enjoy it.."
> 
> ".. If the HD partner can't get over the fact that their partner isn't a horny sex machine and if the LD person can't make an effort, nothing is going to get fixed.."


Another question that need to be addressed is, what about rejection frequency? 

Surely the rights of LD to reject HD's approach when he/she doesn't want to have sex should be respected. 

By the same token, HD's rights to have a fulfilling sexual life in her/his marriage, should _also_ be respected.

But what amount of rejection is reasonable? What reason(s) for rejection are acceptable (other than medical and pure exhaustion)? 

And, what HD should do on her/his part to (1)stand up for her/his rights to have a fulfilling sex life within her/his marriage but (2) without causing resentment on her LD partner?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Some good comments from Mr. Thundarr and Miss Bird:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one is hard for me.

As an abuse victim when I hear "Have sex when you don't really want to...that's part of marriage" it sets off all kind of alarm bells in my head. 

My initial response to that would be "No is no, I don't need a reason, **** off." 

BUT I am coming to understand that a relationship is about 2 people not just 1. 

While I stand by my "I don't need a reason to say no" I also think that at least some effort should be made more often than not. 

Nobody should ever be coerced or guilted into sex. 

But we only get 1 life and everyone deserves to get what they want out of it. 

So if the problem can't be solved, I respect the right of the other person to move on.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> This one is hard for me.
> 
> As an abuse victim when I hear "Have sex when you don't really want to...that's part of marriage" it sets off all kind of alarm bells in my head.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Thank you for sharing your personal insights, Miss Bird. 

:smthumbup:

If I may ask, what advice would you give to the general public? To people whom are not 'you'?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This one is hard for me.
> 
> As an abuse victim when I hear "Have sex when you don't really want to...that's part of marriage" it sets off all kind of alarm bells in my head.
> 
> ...


So it would seem that our little bird is growing up nicely, on the surface. She has distilled the lessons presented here and learned to parrot the proper responses to the questions of sexual desire mismatch. This is a good and necessary step in the process.

Step 2, the harder part, is to internalize the lessons. Knowing what should be and making that practice part of your personality takes time and effort.*

Step 3, the hardest of all, is putting it all together in a successful relationship. Only then will you have shown the ability to walk on the rice paper while leaving no trace.

Happy Trails.

--------------------------

* and you may never fully succeed. Plan on the occasional setback until the day you're put in the ground.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> So it would seem that our little bird is growing up nicely, on the surface. She has distilled the lessons presented here and learned to parrot the proper responses to the questions of sexual desire mismatch. This is a good and necessary step in the process.
> 
> Step 2, the harder part, is to internalize the lessons. Knowing what should be and making that practice part of your personality takes time and effort.*
> 
> ...



Um....thank you? 

:scratchhead:

Nobody is parroting anything. I've always made the effort to be unselfish. Turns out I was just doing it the wrong way.

Now he knows I'm not ever going to be chasing him down for sex. But he also knows I love him very much and will never stop trying for both our sakes. 

The first step to fixing any problem is to care. And I do care. 

So I think I'll be okay.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Some good comments from Mr. Thundarr and Miss Bird:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This has been my lifelong quest (since I became sexually active) to answer the above questions. And I still don't know a ****ing thing.

In just my opinion, coming solely from what I have gleaned and from what I feel myself, here's my answers:



john_lord_b3 said:


> Another question that need to be addressed is, what about rejection frequency?


It sucks, for both parties. It sucks flat out to be rejected and leaves you feeling very unattractive, undesired, unwanted, and a lot more un- words, including unfulfilled. For the rejector, you are left feeling guilty for rejecting your partner, and left wondering how much rejection is ok before your partner might leave or give up. It becomes a balancing act.

The thing I would like to say is that I have come to beleive it would be better to be the rejector than the rejectee. At least as the rejector you are left knowing that you are desired, that someone wants you and craves you. Additionally, it is a source of power in the reletionship, even if you aren't trying to use it as such. When you are rejected (especially on a regular or even semi-regular basis) it's very hard to convince yourself that you are attractive or wanted.



john_lord_b3 said:


> Surely the rights of LD to reject HD's approach when he/she doesn't want to have sex should be respected.


They should be, agreed. That said, it is funny how the LD person typically won't repect the HD person's right to walk away from the relationship over the sexual incompatibility when that level of rejection grows to high or to frequent. It seems like almost any reason can be a decent reason to reject sex, but sex itself is never viewed as a good reason to end a relationship. This is a view carried by a large volume of society I have come to understand, even though that same volume of society would agree that sex is one of the most important issues in a marriage.



john_lord_b3 said:


> By the same token, HD's rights to have a fulfilling sexual life in her/his marriage, should _also_ be respected.


Agreed again. That said, in a marriage it takes two people to define what is a 'fulfilling sexual life, and the issue with LD/HD is that it's rarely going to work out to the HD's benefit. Most of the time, sexual frequency and excitement either peaks at whatever level the LD person wants, or maybe closer towards the middle between the two. Either way, the HD person is unhappy to some extent and even if a compromise is worked out, there is a regularity to the LD person having sex with the HD person moreso out of an obligation than an actual desire, leaving resentment behind on both parts.



john_lord_b3 said:


> But what amount of rejection is reasonable? What reason(s) for rejection are acceptable (other than medical and pure exhaustion)?


This is the $1 million dollar question that both sides ask. I think it just boils down to why would you want to be with someone that you have no problem rejecting unless it is a really good reason, such as medical problems? I mean, not everyone is going to be in the mood all the time, so some rejection should occur in any relationship, but if you'd rather sit on the computer and play cards or watch a rerun of a show for the 4th time than go and be intimate with your partner, why would you want to be with them in the first place? I know the answer for many will be along the lines of "He/she is a good parent, good provider, funny, amazing friend, etc." which is also wonderful and great reasons to be with someone too. But why not find someone who has those characteristics AND has a libido closer matched to yours? Sometimes I think the real reason they stay with a HD person is the power that comes from being able to almost completely control the sex life in the relationship. 

Frankly, if you are getting turned down or are turning down your partner more than 25% of the time, you have a real problem. A major problem. Sadly, I suspect that 80% of marriages (and I'm just pulling a number out of my head on that, nothing to support it) have one spouse turning the other down at least that often, with likely 90% or more of those being the wife turning down the husband. Not bashing the ladies on that, just my opinion based on what I have read and observed.



john_lord_b3 said:


> And, what HD should do on her/his part to (1)stand up for her/his rights to have a fulfilling sex life within her/his marriage but (2) without causing resentment on her LD partner?


Standing up for your rights depends also on the situation you are in and the willingness to effect change on that situation in an effort to enforce your rights.

Often, the most powerful tool a HD person has is the threat of leaving the relationship. Now, you wouldn't play that card right away, you'd loook for other means to fix the issue first, but if you have exhausted all other avenues and nothing is working, that could work. That said, it's easier to leave if you are just dating or even engaged than if you are married, with a house, and kids, and other assets involved. I agree with others that staying together for the kids isn't a good thing, but the alternatives aren't great either. Seeing mom and dad in an ugly relationship isn't a good thing, but only seeing daddy for two weeks a year isn't good either. Having to go and find a new house isn't fun to do when you are going through a divorce and you don't have access to the same levels of credit you had before when the two of you were together. There are countless problems that occur. So if the HD person decides against leaving for several valid reasons, then he/she is also giving up their trump card and if the LD person knows this, the incentive to put the computer down and get involved in improving the sex life is over.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Kingsfan, I agree with everything you said above.

I have a proposition. Why don't we start a new thread to discuss further about: 

(1) How to avoid "Bait and Switch"
(2) How to achieve a mutually satisfactory compromise between HD and LD
(3) How to get out of the "trap" should a HD fallen for the "Bait"
(4) How LD adapt with HD without compromising his/her dignity

I am sure this discussion will be interesting!


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Kingsfan, I agree with everything you said above.
> 
> I have a proposition. Why don't we start a new thread to discuss further about:
> 
> ...


I'm sure if a thread(s) for those topics was started, I'd be involved in the discussion. I, unfortunately, have a great deal of insight to provide.


----------



## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

It is a little late for #1!


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> It is a little late for #1!


Not if you opt out of your contract and become a free agent...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JoeHenderson said:


> Not if you opt out of your contract and become a free agent...


Marriage is forever.

At least it is in those picture books by my bed....


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Marriage is forever.
> 
> At least it is in those picture books by my bed....


Forever is a cripling concept. It prevails acompanied by happiness only when it's not the only option IMO.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Marriage is forever.
> 
> At least it is in those picture books by my bed....


Not if it sucks.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Not if it sucks.


Can I have my 20 year old optimism for a little bit longer before I join the soul crushing cynics club?


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Can I have my 20 year old optimism for a little bit longer before I join the soul crushing cynics club?


If your marriage is wonderful, may it last a thousand years, span multiple lifetimes and carry with it an unendless supply of bliss and ecstacy. My enduring hope is the dreams and soulful wonderment that your 20-year-old optimism contains may be revealed to be beyond even your most wildest of hopes.

If your marriage isn't wonderful, get the **** out.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Kingsfan I pretty much agree with everything you have said, very insightful and for my own reasons i have taken some notes to show my counselor. I struggle to express myself IRL with her and much of what you have said is just so spot on.

There is one point I disagree on however:


> Frankly, if you are getting turned down or are turning down your partner more than 25% of the time, you have a real problem. A major problem. Sadly, I suspect that 80% of marriages (and I'm just pulling a number out of my head on that, nothing to support it) *have one spouse turning the other down at least that often, with likely 90% or more of those being the wife turning down the husband. Not bashing the ladies on that, just my opinion based on what I have read and observed.*


I will keep speaking out on this not because of a standing up for my gender reason but because it is vital that other women know that they are not alone.
If we were to purely go on the posts on TAM and similar forums then that figure would be much closer to 50/50 than many men would care to see.
Many women suffer as the rejected and it comes with it's own set of different issues than when a man is rejected.

The media tell us that it is women that are the rejectors, jokes are made on sit coms, movies etc but the media is run primarily by men so is therefore biased.

When a woman is the rejected one she will often feel completely isolated because as a rule we think that it doesn't happen to women. Therefore her self esteem takes a massive blow, her friends are complaining about their husbands wanting sex, the media is tell her that men don't reject only women do. So she thinks what the hell is wrong with me, I must be the worlds most undesireable women. Her husband who is supposed to be lusting after her isn't doing that so she thinks there is something wrong with her.

There are many similarities when men and women are rejected, the feelings of unworthiness etc. The difference is that when a man is rejected people will say the problem is with the wife, she is LD or whatever. He can talk to his mates, brothers about it because the media tells us that it is the norm for a woman to reject a man.

When a woman is rejected she will not tell anyone and she thinks the problem is within her therefore perpetuating the internal hell.

So while I agree with most of what you say I think is it so important that we stop proping up the notion that it is men that are the main sufferers of rejection and that women out there know that as the rejected, they are not alone.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Holland said:


> There is one point I disagree on however...


Interesting. I haven't thought of it that way too much.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Marriage is forever.
> 
> At least it is in those picture books by my bed....


No it isn't and by now I would have hoped you had of understood this. 

The OP asks "Neither party can have it all, so why not accept what is good enough?" The truth is that life is short and your partner will get to a point where "good enough" is not enough.

There are plenty of marriages/relationships where both parties do have it all, they are the ones where the two people are compatible. So the simple answer is be with a compatible person or move on and find someone that is.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> No it isn't and by now I would have hoped you had of understood this.
> 
> The OP asks "Neither party can have it all, so why not accept what is good enough?" The truth is that life is short and your partner will get to a point where "good enough" is not enough.
> 
> There are plenty of marriages/relationships where both parties do have it all, they are the ones where the two people are compatible. So the simple answer is be with a compatible person or move on and find someone that is.


Holland my dear, I was being highly, highly sarcastic. 

My own parents are divorced. I am totally aware that the entire concept of marriage seems to mean next to nothing in today's society, considering that you can just get out of it whenever you feel like, for whatever reason you fee like, no matter how stupid that reason may seem to the rest of the world. 

I wish I could be that naive.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> Kingsfan I pretty much agree with everything you have said, very insightful and for my own reasons i have taken some notes to show my counselor. I struggle to express myself IRL with her and much of what you have said is just so spot on.
> 
> There is one point I disagree on however:
> 
> ...


First off, thanks for the reply Holland, and thanks for the compliment as well. I'd like to reply to your post in pieces, just so I don't ramble on and there's any confusion as to what I'm replying to specifically.

First, I'd like to say that you may be correct in saying that my claim to 90% of couples where one partner is rejected 25% of the time is incorrect in it being the male partner.. As I stated, that number has no scientific merit to it and is generally pulled from my own life experiences in combination with what I have read, witnessed and had expressed to me, so it is just my (somewhat life-educated) experience.

That said, I don't think I'd suggest that it is all that close to a 50/50 split. While there are several threads per month on the topic of a wife/female partner living in constant rejection sexually from her male partner/husband, there is often multiple threads per day from men in the same boat. While I agree that general stereotypes aren't always accurate, there is also a reason why sexual rejection is thought off as more of a male problem. I don't think I'm inaccurate at all in stating that men are rejected more frequently, and in a higher percentage of relationships than women are.

Where I think the numbers can be skewed and harder to discuss is the volume of women who come forward versus men who report sexual rejection. If there is one benefit to being the gender labelled as being more frequently rejected sexually, it's not as embarrassing to come out publicly -even on an anonymous board like this- and admit to being sexually rejected by your partner. Men can come forward and admit to being turned down and feel as bad as women do. Often, when a man admits to a group of other married/involved men that he is rejected often, at least one other male in that group (and often more) can also say the same thing, and through that common rejection there is a sort of strength.

Women don't have the same benefit. The female figure is viewed as much more sexual than the male form, and as such deemed to be more desireable. We get this from the mainstream media to message boards like these where often the main suggestion for a wife to do if she is turned down is to get her husbands T-level investigated. On the surface, sexual rejection is deemed as at least partly the man's fault most often, if not fully, with women led to believe that a mere willingness to show up is all it takes. As such, a woman who is willing to show up but getting no sexual fulfillment might view it as she 'isn't attractive/good enough' for her partner and as such decline to come forward, 'knowing' (in here mind) it is her fault. 

All of that said, I still will say at the least, in a relationship where a partner getting turned down 25% of the time, a minimum of 75% of the time it is the male partner.



Holland said:


> The media tell us that it is women that are the rejectors, jokes are made on sit coms, movies etc but the media is run primarily by men so is therefore biased.


I do agree the media could be biased, but they are also producing what sells, and there is a reason people cheer on that stuff and laugh at it, and it certainly doesn't seem to be because the public deems it absurd. Rather, the more likely reason is that there is some level of relatibility in it.



Holland said:


> When a woman is the rejected one she will often feel completely isolated because as a rule we think that it doesn't happen to women. Therefore her self esteem takes a massive blow, her friends are complaining about their husbands wanting sex, the media is tell her that men don't reject only women do. So she thinks what the hell is wrong with me, I must be the worlds most undesireable women. Her husband who is supposed to be lusting after her isn't doing that so she thinks there is something wrong with her.


I 100% agree and I think this is wrong. Just as I think there should be some promotion to men that doing chores will never = more sex in general, there should also be a promotion for women that yes, once in a while, there are men who simply don't like or enjoy sex and will turn you down either from time to time or even frequently. 

Not to get off topic here, but there is a negative side effect for men in the media propoganda as well, in that it reenforces to women that men should be able to go at a drop of a hat. For those men who aren't able/interested in doing so, it leaves them feeling like a failure and can add substancial pressure if involved with a female partner who is only interested in semi-regular, sporadic sex.





Holland said:


> There are many similarities when men and women are rejected, the feelings of unworthiness etc. The difference is that when a man is rejected people will say the problem is with the wife, she is LD or whatever. He can talk to his mates, brothers about it because the media tells us that it is the norm for a woman to reject a man.
> 
> When a woman is rejected she will not tell anyone and she thinks the problem is within her therefore perpetuating the internal hell.


I agree with all of this, minus the comment that the men will feel the problem is with the wife.

To give you an example, in many relationships you'll here how 'the sex was great for the first six months/one year/two years/etc.' That's especially ture on this forum. When the sex changes though, if that change is because the woman wants less sex, the guy is left wondering 'what did I do wrong/am I no longer attractive/does she want someone else' etc. We are left with the same thought process as women are I'd imagine.

I know in my marriage to my ex-wife, our sex life was beyond wonderful for the first six months. Then, the frequency waned...and waned.... and waned... and it eventually went down to maybe a couple of times a month for years. At the time and for years after I assumed it was me. I mean I still wanted her, and she was crazy about me for those six months, so it must have been something that I did or that changed in me that caused the problems.

Now that I am out of the relationship, I can see that there was a whole host of problems, but without the benefit of having a view from the outside, and from the wisdom I've gained since we seperated, I couldn't see what the problem was other than it was my fault.



Holland said:


> So while I agree with most of what you say I think is it so important that we stop proping up the notion that it is men that are the main sufferers of rejection and that women out there know that as the rejected, they are not alone.


While I will continue to stand by my assertion that more men suffer from rejection than women, I wholeheartedly support women who are going through regular rejection as well. They should not have to toil alone with their misery. I know I'd have a lot more troubles if I couldn't vent. In fact, I will say that when it comes to support for being rejected, women should perhaps be given more support and encouragement then men, simply because men have more strength in numbers and also because of the stereotype that the media presents that claims women should have almost no worries about ever being rejected by men. In fact, I have stated this before on this board.

Once again, thank you for the reply Holland.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Holland my dear, I was being highly, highly sarcastic.
> 
> My own parents are divorced.* I am totally aware that the entire concept of marriage seems to mean next to nothing in today's society, considering that you can just get out of it whenever you feel like, for whatever reason you fee like, no matter how stupid that reason may seem to the rest of the world. *
> 
> I wish I could be that naive.


Actually LB I see it in the reverse. 

The concept of marriage means a lot in today;s society because it is so easy to just co habitat now with no real need to get married. So those that do marry do so because the truly want too.

It is not that easy to just get our of a marriage whenever you like. I have never heard of anyone that just decided one day to
end it without any prior pain, heartache or deep consideration. With kids, finances and dreams all at stake it is not that easy to end a marriage.

I think when you say *"for whatever reason you fee like, no matter how stupid that reason may seem to the rest of the world"*, you are saying due to a lack of sex. If this is the case then that is incorrect. Ending a marriage due to lack of sex (read: intimacy and connection) is a very valid reason.

I often hear people say that marriage in today's society is throw away but I wonder if any more or less people want to get divorced these days. I think more to the point is that we have evolved and as adults we do not have to put up and shut up. If people are not having their needs met or are unhappy in a marriage they are more likely to stand up and say that they deserve better.

Getting married is not a guarantee that you will stay married. When you get married you have to continue to put in the effort you made before marriage, if not then run the risk of your mate standing up and saying they deserve better.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I am totally aware that the entire concept of marriage seems to mean next to nothing in today's society, considering that you can just get out of it whenever you feel like, for whatever reason you fee like, no matter how stupid that reason may seem to the rest of the world.


I take marriage seriously, even as a divorced person.

After going through a 4 1/2 year divorce involving a house, three children and other personally assets, I'd be crazy to not take marriage seriously considering I am getting remarried next year.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Kingsfan, another great post. I won't make a long reply but again i pretty much agree with what you have said. It is such a delicate issue and there is trauma no matter your gender. Thanks for putting it into words from a male POV.

Somewhere in between 50% - 90% will be the figure of rejection ratios. The exact figure is arbitrary, I just really want to point out to women that they are not alone and being the rejected is far more common they they will first realise.

And to those spouses that think that HD/LD is not a problem or that "good enough should be good enough" please think long and hard about the pain that is being caused to your mate and to your marriage.
At some point something has to change, one of the adults has to make the first move to either reconcile the differences and work out a compromise or to stand up and say it is over.
The only inbetween is that you will forever live in unhappiness.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I take marriage seriously, even as a divorced person.
> 
> After going through a 4 1/2 year divorce involving a house, three children and other personally assets, I'd be crazy to not take marriage seriously considering I am getting remarried next year.


Same. I take marriage very seriously too, even as a divorced person.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Holland said:


> Actually LB I see it in the reverse.
> 
> The concept of marriage means a lot in today;s society because it is so easy to just co habitat now with no real need to get married. So those that do marry do so because the truly want too.
> 
> ...


I was actually not referring to sex. 

Holland, I know I may come across hostile to sex but I'm really not.

I think it is a beautiful thing. 

THAT is why I take issue with the expectation that one person can just expect the other person to service them whenever they feel like it. You literally have to open up your most intimate self to another. The idea of doing that with NO desire...that sounds like it could do serious damage in the long run. 

One person's horny does not constitute another person's responsibility. 

If both people want to, have at it, shake the house down.

If one person can take it or leave it but is willing, same thing.

But if one person clearly doesn't want to and yet, must or lose their husband/wife...that is profoundly disturbing to me.

I appear to be alone on that. 

Sex is not the only way to show love or intimacy. Sex for the sole sake of physical gratification is a hobby, not a need. 

Leaving someone over monthly sex, if they do everything else right...leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Everyone has the right to do what they want. That means saying no. It also means leaving if you so choose. 

We are all entitled to our own bodies and lives.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

No idea, maybe I'm liked-out? I have been getting a few more than normal lately (maybe I'm on a rage-induced roll? )

Either way, I can tell by your posts. Thanks for the positive feedback, it's been a real pleasure having this discussion with you Holland. Keep up the great posting, I always love reading your stuff because you are so level-headed and unbiased (in my biased opinion).

EDIT: I just got a couple of likes from you so it must be all good now.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks Kingsfan, I think we have had some parallels in life. I find your posts very level headed as well. 

The like thing is resolved, I have no idea what happened.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Sex is not the only way to show love or intimacy.


Neither is buying flowers, dinners out, holding hands, or whatever else. But when those things are never/rarely done, it is also neglectful.



LittleBird said:


> Leaving someone over monthly sex, if they do everything else right...leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


Funny, monthly sex leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



LittleBird said:


> Everyone has the right to do what they want. That means saying no. It also means leaving if you so choose.


So saying no frequently (which I assume would occur if we are talking about monthly sex) is ok, but leaving over monthly sex gives you a bad taste? 

In my opinion, I'd have a bad taste in mouth if I was turning my partner down for ANYTHING important in a relationship on a frequent basis.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I have a few question that I would appreciate some answers. 

Is allowing yourself to be aroused in order to feel desire considered a violation of the right of refiusal? If so, why. 

If, with the help of your SO, you were able to be aroused and feel desire, why would you not do this for the sake of the person you say you love? It seems that arriving at the same place, albeit by diffent routes is a decent goal. 

i always assummed that the goal of marriage was two people having an exclusive relationship relationship that included love, an emotional bond and mutual support , and the intimacy of sex among other things. 

I really don't know how a LD person who rejects can stand to see their SO suffer from the rejection they impose. I really don't understand why anyone would have sex with someone and tell them hurry up! Not all LD people reject. 

To me, that is the height of contempt and disrespect of one human for another. I would be ashamed of myself if i did that to someone who I am supposed to love. 

I have to say that a large maybe even most women do not realize what sex means to a man in love and don't know about the depth of dispear when they reject. Although rearly rejected my husband, I did not know until I read the two books in my signiture and the post on this site, 

I like to ask LD people if they realize the pain of rejection, why do they hurt the person they love. If they don't love the person why not let them go to someone who does?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> First, I'd like to say that you may be correct in saying that my claim to 90% of couples where one partner is rejected 25% of the time is incorrect in it being the male partner.. As I stated, that number has no scientific merit to it and is generally pulled from my own life experiences in combination with what I have read, witnessed and had expressed to me, so it is just my (somewhat life-educated) experience.


The ratios I've read in clinical literature are 1/3 of married men and 1/5 of married women


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Leaving someone over monthly sex, if they do everything else right...leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> Everyone has the right to do what they want. That means saying no. It also means leaving if you so choose.


You have the right to have sex with your partner once a month.

Just don't expect to be exercising that right for very long before your partner finds another outlet or leaves altogether.

The universe doesn't much care if you like this or not. It's just a cold, hard, fact that you can verify at your leisure in this forum. 

And don't attack a straw man. There are very few folks here who are saying that you do not have the right to say no. There's a whole lot of space between having daily sex and having monthly sex that constitutes a middle ground.

You seem to be stuck in this false dichotomy of thinking that you either must say yes each and every time you're asked for sex or you should only have sex when you feel desire. Again, there's a huge negotiable middle ground.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Neither is buying flowers, dinners out, holding hands, or whatever else. But when those things are never/rarely done, it is also neglectful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You rather artfully disregarded the rest of that post.

I didn't say anyone was wrong for leaving over monthly sex.

I just said it is disconcerting to me.

"Honey, I love you but we only bump uglies once a month so catch you later."

I think it is a problem that should attempt to be solved.

But I think it's a bad reason to leave.

That is just my opinion.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Catherine, I have no idea either. I don't even like to say no to my fiancee if she's really wanting to go out for dinner, nevermind telling her no to offering to share her body and spirit with me in an intimate way. I can't wrap my head around imposing that level of rejection on a frequent basis, and then wrapping it up with insults like 'hurry up'.

Granted, all of that goes out the window if some terrible has happened, such as someone committing adultery, abuse, etc.

Octillo, thanks for that piece of info. Would you have links to information/studies on this? This entire debate has got me thinking a lot about this topic and honestly has reopened some old, unpleseant memories (not that is a bad thing).


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> You have the right to have sex with your partner once a month.
> 
> Just don't expect to be exercising that right for very long before your partner finds another outlet or leaves altogether.
> 
> ...


I realize the universe doesn't give a ****.

I don't really care.

Of course it is a cold, hard fact.

I'm aware of it.

Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Doesn't mean I don't find it vapid, shallow and ridiculous in many cases.

Not all. In fact the other day I commented on a post where I advise him to leave.

You're talking to someone who doesn't like sex and has it all the ****ing time.

I know a thing or two about compromise for the person you love.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> "Honey, I love you but we only bump uglies once a month so catch you later."
> 
> I think it is a problem that should attempt to be solved.
> 
> ...


I think it's a f**cking BRILLIANT reason to leave, and the sooner you discover it's the norm the better. I'm serious.

In my sample size of one, mismatched sexual desire doesn't really improve over time. Divesting yourself of the relationship only gets harder the further down the road you push it.

If your thumb hurts from hitting it with a hammer, the first thing to do is to stop hitting your thumb with the hammer.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You rather artfully disregarded the rest of that post.


Hitting the backspace button isn't art. Also, I replied to the parts of your post that I found applicable, as I have throughout the 63 pages thus far.



LittleBird said:


> I didn't say anyone was wrong for leaving over monthly sex.
> 
> I just said it is disconcerting to me.


No you didn't, you said it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Not much of a difference. You also say later in this post (read below) that it is a 'bad reason to leave.' Not much difference between that and just saying it's wrong. But continue to nitpick.



LittleBird said:


> "Honey, I love you but we only bump uglies once a month so catch you later."
> 
> I think it is a problem that should attempt to be solved.
> 
> ...


Who said people shouldn't attempt to solve it first? Of course you try to solve a problem before you leave a marriage. If not, few would survive long enough to get to a one year anniversary. 

But as far as being a bad reason to leave? Sorry, I don't agree I won't agree. I was the once a month guy for several years in my marriage to my ex-wife, and if I ever have to go through that again I hope someone takes me out back of the barn and puts me out of my misery.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I know you love her but you are likely to be facing a life of pain. I am sure you have been asked this before but why are you willing to sacrifice yourself?
> 
> You know it is not expected of you to knowingly throw yourself under a freight train. No one would blame you if jumped aside. The people who love you would rejoice. The ones who don't love wold be a sad. Why why why King.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ummm, what?


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> Ummm, what?


Your fiancé .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You're talking to someone who doesn't like sex and has it all the ****ing time.


How's that working out for you?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Hitting the backspace button isn't art. Also, I replied to the parts of your post that I found applicable, as I have throughout the 63 pages thus far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In an ideal world, marriage vows would count for something other than how often two people get naked.

But whatever.

I really and honestly don't give a **** anymore.

All my ****s have been exhausted.

And so I will continue to keep the glory hole open.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> How's that working out for you?


How the **** else is it supposed to work out?

It's either this or end up on my ass in the cold.

Operation pointless, as I call it.


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> And so I will continue to keep the glory hole open.


Would you stop with the cliched, crude comments? I fail to see how they add to the discussion.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> How the **** else is it supposed to work out?
> 
> It's either this or end up on my ass in the cold.
> 
> Operation pointless, as I call it.


Well, it's a good thing you don't resent your fiance even before you marry him.

That would be a problem.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

lovesherman said:


> Would you stop with the cliched, crude comments? I fail to see how they add to the discussion.


I fail to see how that was directed at your nor why you would be concerned with it.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> How the **** else is it supposed to work out?
> 
> It's either this or end up on my ass in the cold.
> 
> Operation pointless, as I call it.


No, you are settling for a situation that is not right for you because you fear being alone. You are 20, far out that is so young to have these types of issues.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Well, it's a good thing you don't resent your fiance even before you marry him.
> 
> That would be a problem.


It's not him I have a problem with.

I really could care less at this point and I have no more energy to discuss this further.

You're right. It's the way it is. 

I am aware of that and have adjusted accordingly.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> In an ideal world, marriage vows would count for something other than how often two people get naked.
> 
> But whatever.


Marriage vows do count for something. If you're studying law, then sooner or later you're probably going to take at least an introductory course in ethics. 

A concept that will be covered is concomitant obligation, which is basically a fancy way of saying that promises and considerations from others are not free.

For example: If as a precondition of marriage, you had to take a solemn oath to only ever eat food that your husband personally provided, then he would have a concomitant obligation to feed you.

You'd be in a real pickle if he refused to honor the ethical corollary to that vow, because your options for filling an important need would be reduced to starving, breaking the vow or asking him to be released from it.

I realize it is horribly unromantic to express things in quasi-legal terms, but there it is.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> It's not him I have a problem with.
> 
> I really could care less at this point and I have no more energy to discuss this further.
> 
> ...


What you don't seem to understand is that your way of 'adjusting' is not sustainable. You won't be able to remain enthusiastic when opening your glory hole and your fiance, will at one point realize all he is getting out of sex with you is a warm hole (which will not fulfill him in the long run).


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Marriage vows do count for something. If you're studying law, then sooner or later you're probably going to take at least an introductory course in ethics.
> 
> A concept that will be covered is concomitant obligation, which is basically a fancy way of saying that promises and considerations from others are not free.
> 
> ...


I have thought about this a lot.

However, I simply cannot get to the point where I can even begin to put sex and food on the same plane of existence.

There are plenty of people walking around who have sex once a month and they aren't lining up at the the ER wanting to commit suicide. 

So basically I'm to understand that men get married to have regular access to a vagina and if this doesn't happen, the rest of the marriage be damned to hell. 

Honestly, the attitude I pick up in a lot of posts on here has little to nothing to do with intimacy and more to do with the disappointment that their pipeline has been cut off and the regret that they hadn't stayed single.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> What you don't seem to understand is that your way of 'adjusting' is not sustainable. You won't be able to remain enthusiastic when opening your glory hole and your fiance, will at one point realize all he is getting out of sex with you is a warm hole (which will not fulfill him in the long run).


You don't get it at all.

I get a great deal of intimacy from sex. A great deal. 

But can we drop the bull**** that he wakes me up in the middle of the night because of his burning desire to be close to me?

We are misconstruing desire as need. 

I fulfill that desire out of LOVE for him. 

But I don't think it's my job or that I'd be a bad spouse for not doing it.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> I have thought about this a lot.
> 
> However, I simply cannot get to the point where I can even begin to put sex and food on the same plane of existence.
> 
> ...


Why do I get the feeling that you have been [email protected] a bunch, but have never made love!


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> However, I simply cannot get to the point where I can even begin to put sex and food on the same plane of existence.


Well I can. I've told the story several times here. I fell down a ravine as a young man and broke some bones. This was long before cell phones and I hadn't told anyone where I was going. There was water but no food and it was a week before I ate again.

As bad as that was, it was still not as bad as having my wife go off into an emotional la-la land for 18 months after the first child was born. It was easier and over more quickly.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> You don't get it at all.
> 
> I get a great deal of intimacy from sex. A great deal.
> 
> ...


I get it fine. 

You keep mixing in 'over the top' examples to try to prove your point. 

One minute you say you get nothing at all from sex. Then the next you are saying that you get a great deal of intimacy from it. Which is it!

No man would leave his wife because she wasn't receptive at 3 in the morning when he wakes her up for sex because he is feeling horny. Any reasonable man would understand she has the right to turn him down.

But when a man approaches his wife and he is rejected over and over again and goes weeks without her showing any sexual interest in him, then he has every right to be upset. And when this goes on for many months, he has every right to leave the marriage.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Why do I get the feeling that you have been [email protected] a bunch, but have never made love!


I just had a thought. 

Many posters mentioned they do things for their wives they don't want to do for the good of the marriage.

And that they've been doing it for 20 plus years.

So how is sex any less sustainable?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I get it fine.
> 
> You keep mixing in 'over the top' examples to try to prove your point.
> 
> ...



Why do men equate their self worth with how much attention a woman gives to their penis? 

:scratchhead:

Whatever, I don't get it.

But I do it anyway because it clearly makes him happy.

And I do get that intimacy out of it USUALLY but not every time. Sometimes I just let him do it because he wants to.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Well I can. I've told the story several times here. I fell down a ravine as a young man and broke some bones. This was long before cell phones and I hadn't told anyone where I was going. There was water but no food and it was a week before I ate again.
> 
> As bad as that was, it was still not as bad as having my wife go off into an emotional la-la land for 18 months after the first child was born. It was easier and over more quickly.


18 months is ridiculous. Nobody is saying THAT is okay.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I just had a thought.
> 
> Many posters mentioned they do things for their wives they don't want to do for the good of the marriage.
> 
> ...


It might not be, but it is harder.

If I go to a movie with my wife and I don't like it, my disinterest doesn't affect her enjoyment. She's not personally offended, because she didn't produce, edit, act in, or film the movie. My disinterest is completely unrelated to our relationship. Likewise for meals, chores, etc.

Sex with a disinterested partner soon becomes 1) obvious and 2) unfulfilling, because rejection, disinterest, or boredom with the only thing on earth that you require from one and only one person is VERY personal.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> It might not be, but it is harder.
> 
> If I go to a movie with my wife and I don't like it, my disinterest doesn't affect her enjoyment. She's not personally offended, because she didn't produce, edit, act in, or film the movie. My disinterest is completely unrelated to our relationship. Likewise for meals, chores, etc.
> 
> Sex with a disinterested partner soon becomes 1) obvious and 2) unfulfilling, because rejection, disinterest, or boredom with the only thing on earth that you require from one and only one person is VERY personal.


I'm not interested in sex but I'm interested in him. I don't fake it per say, but I do try to follow his lead. I've never faked an orgasm, he's never even asked if I've had one. 

Disinterested how? Like flat back stare at the ceiling? 

For some women, PIV doesn't do a whole lot. I wonder what exactly these women are supposed to do to appear "interested" without becoming fakers. 

I mostly try to move a little and look at him, not the ceiling. It's a little easier when I'm not facing him, actually, for some reason but that's probably just me.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> 18 months is ridiculous. Nobody is saying THAT is okay.


You're absolutely right. It is a matter of degree. A surprising number of people (Not on TAM) do think that's absolutely okay though.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> You're absolutely right. It is a matter of degree. A surprising number of people (Not on TAM) do think that's absolutely okay though.


I couldn't go 18 months without touching the man I love and I don't even LIKE sex.

I don't get that.

One month? Yeah, okay. As long as we're doing other things.

I don't get what the big deal is for men and PIV but then again, I'm not a man.

I suspect it has something to do with manliness.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Your fiancé .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you're asking about my post you quoted from yesterday, it was in reference to my previous marriage which I left five years ago, not my fiancee.



LittleBird said:


> In an ideal world, marriage vows would count for something other than how often two people get naked.
> 
> But whatever.
> 
> ...


Who on here says marriage vows count for nothing when people have clothes on? Other than you, no one.

Are you bi-polar, because your position on sex jumps from one post to the other. Either that or you adjust your position simply to maintain an ongoing argument.



LittleBird said:


> How the **** else is it supposed to work out?
> 
> It's either this or end up on my ass in the cold.
> 
> Operation pointless, as I call it.


So if you don't have sex all the time, you'll end up in the cold? How did you draw this conclusion?

Maybe try dating with an upfront explaination of your sexual level. It may take you a while to find a guy who can meet that level, but you will. There are men out there who actually don't care for sex either.



LittleBird said:


> I have thought about this a lot.
> 
> However, I simply cannot get to the point where I can even begin to put sex and food on the same plane of existence.
> 
> ...


Again, no one said sex is on the same level as food. Few things are. But that's not to say it's not important. 

And that pipeline is a one source only thing. Food, I can get that anywhere. Businesses compete for my money, advertise on TV to draw in my attention, offer specials, have staff designed to cater to my wants. If someone ran a supermarket with the mindset that I can service myself, pay more than I should have to and should be grateful that I'm even allowed in the store, how well would that business do?

Yet some spouses do that regarding sex and can get away with it because the other spouse can't shop around. That's the one difference between sex and other needs in a relationship. Unlike other needs, you can't get sex elsewhere if your partner decides to 'close the pipeline.'


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> If you're asking about my post you quoted from yesterday, it was in reference to my previous marriage which I left five years ago, not my fiancee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bi-polar? Hah, no, I wish.



That's a lot easier to deal with. There's a pill for that. 

I actually agree with you.

I read some posts though, that put me in a mood if you will. I get the sperm receptacle vibe from some.

Not you, though.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Why do men equate their self worth with how much attention a woman gives to their penis?
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


It's not so black and white as equating attention to my penis = my self worth.

Think of it like this. If you wanted a hug from your fiancee and he said no once, you'd be a bit upset. But once, whatever. If he said no on a regular basis, you'd be disappointed, hurt, embarrassed and a whole host of other things.

Why would sex be any different? We are offering our bodies to our partner, only to be turned down? Yeah, if it is at 3 a.m., it is understandable and acceptable. If it's because you want to play a card game on the computer, not really, just the same as if I said I didn't want to give you a hug because I didn't want to miss my favorite beer commercial that I have seen 14 times already.

It's not that sex equals a self-esteem boost, it's that rejection squates to a self-esteem blow, and repeated blows destroy your self-esteem. 

Thing is, a woman is taught that saying no to sex is ok, under any circumstance. If a man says no to a hug though, he's a jerk and selfish.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> It's not so black and white as equating attention to my penis = my self worth.
> 
> Think of it like this. If you wanted a hug from your fiancee and he said no once, you'd be a bit upset. But once, whatever. If he said no on a regular basis, you'd be disappointed, hurt, embarrassed and a whole host of other things.
> 
> ...


Probably because the effort it takes to get off the couch and hug someone and the effort it takes to give up your body in the most intimate way when you really have no desire to do so is considerably different. 

Men are programmed to enjoy sex as a biological necessity, so it makes sense that you would get "more" out of it physically/emotionally and all that in many cases. 

A woman not wanting your penis inside her at that very moment doesn't actually mean she doesn't love you.

By the same token, a woman that loves you will also be loathe to see you unhappy.

Balancing act.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Probably because the effort it takes to get off the couch and hug someone and the effort it takes to give up your body in the most intimate way when you really have no desire to do so is considerably different.
> 
> Men are programmed to enjoy sex as a biological necessity, so it makes sense that you would get "more" out of it physically/emotionally and all that in many cases.
> 
> ...


So, how do you explain the couples where it is the woman who wants sex much more often than the man? And I'm not talking about those like my husband and myself. I am talking about the ones where the man wants more of an emotional connection in other ways...be it keeping a clean house, buying a special item he has been eying at the store, or whatever. And the woman is the one who wants sex everyday, even multiple times a day. What is your explanation for that? 

The fact is that men aren't the only ones who get so much out of sex. It's hard to explain that to someone who admittedly doesn't even LIKE it though.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> So, how do you explain the couples where it is the woman who wants sex much more often than the man? And I'm not talking about those like my husband and myself. I am talking about the ones where the man wants more of an emotional connection in other ways...be it keeping a clean house, buying a special item he has been eying at the store, or whatever. And the woman is the one who wants sex everyday, even multiple times a day. What is your explanation for that?
> 
> The fact is that men aren't the only ones who get so much out of sex. It's hard to explain that to someone who admittedly doesn't even LIKE it though.


I really didn't mean to imply that sex was totally for the benefit of the man.

But like kings fan said earlier, the reason we see more men on here complaining about lack of sex than women is likely based in biology.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. 

And as for liking it, I don't like it in the way you would consider like.

Emotionally, I can get some enjoyment out of it and I like seeing him like it.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

Like I said before if your LD you have no idea what it's like to be miserable for weeks at a time because of no physical or emotional connection. My wife rejects me 99 out of 100 times and sometimes she will say " we can do something later" and later never gets here which is even more frustrating. She doesn't understand my feelings and acts as if she doesn't really care but the moment she is deprived from a hug or watching a movie then I'm a terrible person. She told me the other night that I could hold her hand and not be such a A-hole and I was like yeah and you could have had sex with me sometime in the last three weeks. I think I had enough it's always and excuse and I'm tired of talking, argueing and speaking of it. I would rather never have sex than to have it once in a while. Don't ever have sex don't have to worry about it, but if I tell her no the once in blue moon she ask I'm being an A-hole.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> Like I said before if your LD you have no idea what it's like to be miserable for weeks at a time because of no physical or emotional connection. My wife rejects me 99 out of 100 times and sometimes she will say " we can do something later" and later never gets here which is even more frustrating. She doesn't understand my feelings and acts as if she doesn't really care but the moment she is deprived from a hug or watching a movie then I'm a terrible person. She told me the other night that I could hold her hand and not be such a A-hole and I was like yeah and you could have had sex with me sometime in the last three weeks. I think I had enough it's always and excuse and I'm tired of talking, argueing and speaking of it. I would rather never have sex than to have it once in a while. Don't ever have sex don't have to worry about it, but if I tell her no the once in blue moon she ask I'm being an A-hole.


If I was your wife, I'd be sleeping with you cause you don't come across like some entitled *******.

That being said, if you made that little snide comment to me the panties would be staying on for a lot longer than three weeks.



That comment probably didn't do much but make her look at you like a jerk, though I understand you were angry...did you ask for sex sometime in the last 3 weeks and she turned you down all those times? Or did you want her to initiate? 

Honestly, her wanting you to hold her hand SOUNDS like she was attempting to establish physical intimacy.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If I was your wife, I'd be sleeping with you cause you don't come across like some entitled *******.


And this shows you really don't get it. The men (here, at least) don't WANT the sex just because you think they don't come across as entitled @$$holes. They want sex with their wives because they love them, and they want to express that love with their wives. And they want their wives to genuinely enjoy sex, not just go through with it because they "don't come across as entitled"... They want genuine, not imitation.

Yes, you have said you like the emotional connection. Yet, you DO continually use the words "I don't like sex"... you can't seem to make up your mind what you really mean, tbh. Great, you like the emotional connection. You get no physical satisfaction from the act? And I don't mean "just" PIV... I mean any sex act at all.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> And this shows you really don't get it. The men (here, at least) don't WANT the sex just because you think they don't come across as entitled @$$holes. They want sex with their wives because they love them, and they want to express that love with their wives. And they want their wives to genuinely enjoy sex, not just go through with it because they "don't come across as entitled"... They want genuine, not imitation.
> 
> Yes, you have said you like the emotional connection. Yet, you DO continually use the words "I don't like sex"... you can't seem to make up your mind what you really mean, tbh. Great, you like the emotional connection. You get no physical satisfaction from the act? And I don't mean "just" PIV... I mean any sex act at all.


I fail to see how that comment negates that men want sex from their wives because they love them.

I know that.

That's all anyone has been saying for the past few pages.

That comment was related to my previous comment that most of them men on here seem genuine and loving but occasionally I read a post that makes me question that and how they make their wives feel when it comes to sex.

Nobody is negating that point. 

And I'm the one who starts the kissing, cuddling, touching and oral like NINTEY PERCENT of the time. It's wonderful until it gets up to the actual act but even then, it's a mixed bag of goodies.

I am far from a frosty prude. Intimacy is important, I don't deny that.

I don't deny him, I don't refuse him and I really do want to be close to him. That being said I feel like there are very few people here who can even begin to speak for the low drive/refuser whatever and I try, at times, to speak for those people.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

He's never asked if you have an orgasm? That's...quite a guy you've got there.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

To add to the food comparison would you rather starve to death in the desert our in a restaurant. The physical pain would be the same but the emotional and mental pain would be far greater it the restaurant
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> He's never asked if you have an orgasm? That's...quite a guy you've got there.


Yeah...

Well after our big "sex talk" he asked...and I just looked at him blankly. He got sort of upset but hey, at least I didn't lie to him. 

He would normally say "Was that good?" and I'd just nod. 

Now he asks but I hate having to tell him no, he gets soooooo upset. He's in a gloomy fog for days.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> To add to the food comparison would you rather starve to death in the desert our in a restaurant. The physical pain would be the same but the emotional and mental pain would be far greater it the restaurant
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife being the restaurant with plenty of sex in the back room?



This is a good analogy, though. I see your point.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Well after our big "sex talk" he asked...and I just looked at him blankly. He got sort of upset but hey, at least I didn't lie to him.
> 
> ...


So he does ask, but you lied about it here again. You just can't stop painting yourself as the victim, can you?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> So he does ask, but you lied about it here again. You just can't stop painting yourself as the victim, can you?


You're kidding me, right? I just specifically stated I DID NOT LIE TO HIM.

He never ASKED before we had the talk.

Now he does and I say NO, thus why he gets upset. I just give him a look and he knows the answer is no. 

What is remotely confusing about that?

Or is it just easy for you to always paint me in the wrong?


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm not interested in sex but I'm interested in him. I don't fake it per say, but I do try to follow his lead. I've never faked an orgasm, *he's never even asked if I've had one. *
> 
> Disinterested how? Like flat back stare at the ceiling?
> 
> ...


You had this talk with him in the last 24 hours? Because you posted the above yesterday at 11.34 my time. It is now 9.50 my time. If you did, I retract my comment. Although, it still doesn't explain how he could ask, be told no, and then sulk for days.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You're kidding me, right? I just specifically stated I DID NOT LIE TO HIM.
> 
> He never ASKED before we had the talk.
> 
> ...


Possibly the part in bold, below?



LittleBird said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Well after our big "sex talk" he asked...and I just looked at him blankly. He got sort of upset but hey, at least I didn't lie to him.
> 
> ...


When others have stated what you said above, they also admit to faking and telling their spouses that they did have one. So, what part is confusing? That part is. That and you keep waffling back and forth so much.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Oh, and I didn't say you lied to him. I said you lied to us, here, when you claimed he never asked if you had an orgasm.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> You had this talk with him in the last 24 hours? Because you posted the above yesterday at 11.34 my time. It is now 9.50 my time. If you did, I retract my comment. Although, it still doesn't explain how he could ask, be told no, and then sulk for days.


I had the talk with him a few days ago now. 

I think that comment was referring to his attitude pre-talk, in which case, I retract my statement. 

He sulks for days WHENEVER something doesn't go his way. That is why I'm so loathe to brings anything up but I'm trying for the sake of the relationship.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Oh, and I didn't say you lied to him. I said you lied to us, here, when you claimed he never asked if you had an orgasm.


He does now, he's more sensitive to the fact that there is another person there. 

All it took was a talk...progress.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Possibly the part in bold, below?
> 
> 
> 
> When others have stated what you said above, they also admit to faking and telling their spouses that they did have one. So, what part is confusing? That part is. That and you keep waffling back and forth so much.


I clarified below.

We've made quite a few changes in the past couple of days. Most of my comments refer to how things were (pre-talk) as old habits are hard to shake.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Can you see where you're exaggerating and lying? Does it make sense to you why people question your story?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Can you see where you're exaggerating and lying? Does it make sense to you why people question your story?


*sigh*

I'm not lying.

Actually, hand to God, I'm actually making a concentrated effort to tell the truth.

I'm confused.

I'm not trying to mislead anybody.

I am assuming some of the confusion comes in my stream of consciousness way of speech, which tends to disregard things like tenses.

But I'm not lying.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Okay, I'm going to hammer this a bit.

You are lying. You lied when you said that he had never asked whether you had an orgasm, when he, in fact, had, even if the change was recent.

You also lied when you said that when he asks and you say no, he 'sulks for days', implying that there had been a long enough lag time for that to be possible. Which there hasn't. 

If no-one had called you on it, anyone reading the first post I mentioned would be under the impression that your fiance had literally never asked you if you had had an orgasm. And that you just long-sufferingly put up with it, in a self-sacrificing, martyrish way. 

Also, I suspect him asking you if it was good for you was his way of asking, but it suits the persona you seem to be invested in maintaining to make it sound like he is basically thoughtless, selfish and not at all concerned with your sexual pleasure. 

Seriously, what is the point? What is the point of not being truthful on here? It's such a massive waste of time.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Okay, I'm going to hammer this a bit.
> 
> You are lying. You lied when you said that he had never asked whether you had an orgasm, when he, in fact, had, even if the change was recent.
> 
> ...


Fact: He never asked me if I'd had an orgasm until AFTER I broached the topic that I wanted to make an effort to get more fulfillment out of sex. And AFTER we had that talk, he concluded I hadn't been having orgasms and sulked for quite some time. (I mentioned all of this in a thread I posted a few days ago, if you care to check)

And NO, asking if it was good for me was less about that and more about his own validation, which he ADMITTED to me when we had the talk.

Nobody is trying to be a martyr here, I didn't lie about one single thing you mentioned above.

There would be no point, you're right...which is why I'm not doing it.

Sometimes, honest to God, I just step on my tongue or muddle things because I'm not the best communicator in the world. But I'm telling the truth. 

I can't say anything other than that.

Honestly, I could say the truest thing on the entire planet and you'd probably still find fault with it. I'm exhausted at this point.

I need to learn better communication skills, clearly.......I'm actually trying here.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

The fact is I can't live a peaceful life with out sex life like it has been for ten plus years I can't function normal our have any self confidence. There is some physical pain but its the emotional pain that is overwhelming. I have lived with it but I'm getting to the point I can't stand it anymore. It makes me be an angry hateful person and I don't like that.I am a nice generous peaceful person but lack of sex mashes me a bad person whether that's right or wrong I don't know. In that situation I think lack of sex can be grounds for divorce
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> The fact is I can't live a peaceful life with out sex life like it has been for ten plus years I can't function normal our have any self confidence. There is some physical pain but its the emotional pain that is overwhelming. I have lived with it but I'm getting to the point I can't stand it anymore. It makes me be an angry hateful person and I don't like that.I am a nice generous peaceful person but lack of sex mashes me a bad person whether that's right or wrong I don't know. In that situation I think lack of sex can be grounds for divorce
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a free country.

If you want a divorce, you have every right to get one.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

homebuilder said:


> The fact is I can't live a peaceful life with out sex life like it has been for ten plus years I can't function normal our have any self confidence. There is some physical pain but its the emotional pain that is overwhelming. I have lived with it but I'm getting to the point I can't stand it anymore. It makes me be an angry hateful person and I don't like that.I am a nice generous peaceful person but lack of sex mashes me a bad person whether that's right or wrong I don't know. In that situation I think lack of sex can be grounds for divorce
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lack of sex is absolutely a need failing to be provided. If you quit your job and your wife had to support you for ten years then that would be equal reason for her to feel entitled to more. This is not a difficult concept to grasp if people can just understand that their spouses needs are not necessarily the same as their own. Have you guys read and tried His Needs/Her Needs. It's not an expensive book and it covers this topic of needs very well.

*If your wife knows that divorce is looming then maybe she will read it with you. Then decide together if you can work together. *Seriously there's no need to live in postured positions when materials may actually change hers and you perspective on things.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

never read that book but I have showed her some info on the web written by a sex therapist. I don't have any hope for a change anymore. I just don't know if I have the emotional energy to fight anymore. The last few weeks have been pretty low, I just don't know if I have anything left.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> never read that book but I have showed her some info on the web written by a sex therapist. I don't have any hope for a change anymore. I just don't know if I have the emotional energy to fight anymore. The last few weeks have been pretty low, I just don't know if I have anything left.


I advise you to turn inward for happiness.

You cannot change her behavior, sadly, I wish I could help you.

But I advise you to look inside yourself and find strength. Perhaps just distance yourself from it all...and worry about you.

Good luck, ok?


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I advise you to turn inward for happiness.
> 
> You cannot change her behavior, sadly, I wish I could help you.
> 
> ...


Through the course of this thread you have said some very kind words to me and I really appreciate that. I think you are a very caring person and it shows.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

homebuilder said:


> Through the course of this thread you have said some very kind words to me and I really appreciate that. I think you are a very caring person and it shows.


I'm not the easiest person to get along with or to understand but I I know what it's like to have people judge you without knowing you. I also know what it's like to live in a house where no one cares about you, even though you go out of your way...and all you want is for them to love you. It's not fun. But you can be happy with nothing more than what is inside of you. It's not easy but you can. 

Chin up, ne?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Can I have my 20 year old optimism for a little bit longer before I join the soul crushing cynics club?


Not if you genuinely want your relationship to succeed. Facing the truth is essential in being successful at anything. I can be optimistic about the publishing industry, and believe that I will be published by the time I'm thirty, even though the industry is incredibly competitive, and my optimism won't make any difference in whether or not I am actually published by the time I'm thirty. Understanding the industry, perfecting my talent, learning about the dos and the do nots of literature, are vital to making me publish worthy. 

Knowing that there are plenty of reasons for marriages to end is the only way we, as humans, can really do our best to keep our own marriage afloat. So, if you really want your marriage to be a success, you have to face the truth about yourself and about the man you're with.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I was actually not referring to sex.
> 
> Holland, I know I may come across hostile to sex but I'm really not.
> 
> ...


But no one has said this at all. In fact, every person in this thread has said that no one should feel like they have to have sex with their partner every single time he or she wants it. I have said no to my husband before. My husband has said no to me before. 

What HAS been said here is that, in a relationship where the two people aren't sexually compatible, it's going to be difficult for either of them to totally understand the other. The LD person will feel angry and resentful because they're giving more than they're comfortable with, and the HD person will feel angry and resentful because the LD person will respond the way you have: "I don't need a reason to say no, I'm just saying no." For a HD person this can be shattering. Some marriages make it work. It's not like it's impossible. But many don't. 



> You literally have to open up your most intimate self to another. The idea of doing that with NO desire...that sounds like it could do serious damage in the long run.


It can. For me, though, it never has. And after a certain amount of time, my desire revs up to match his, so we're both satisfied in the end. But I have never been sexually abused. Which is why I am worried that you being with a HD person may very likely cause plenty of issues down the road. I know you say that you get the importance of sex, and I believe that you do, but I am nervous that you don't understand the importance of mutually satisfying sex. And _that_ is what worries me with you and your fiance.



> One person's horny does not constitute another person's responsibility.


And here is the divide. My husband gets erections often. Before bed. In the middle of the night. In the morning. At lunch. It doesn't mean he's necessarily horny. But, when he IS horny, as his _wife_, who vowed to cherish and love him, I absolutely have a responsibility. Even if it's only a hand job or blow job. Now, my husband has been horny at times and NOT told me. So it's not like I bend over backwards to relieve his sexual tension at his beck and call. But when he does make it clear that he is horny, I either tell him straight up that I am not in the mood(so that he doesn't get excited, thinking we're going to fool around), or I take up that responsibility and I do what I can to satisfy him. 

In marriage, your body is both yours AND your husbands. Same as the husband's body is both his AND yours. No one else is morally allowed to enjoy either body but you and him. 



> If both people want to, have at it, shake the house down.
> 
> If one person can take it or leave it but is willing, same thing.
> 
> But if one person clearly doesn't want to and yet, must or lose their husband/wife...that is profoundly disturbing to me.


Again, you are seeing things as too black and white. You see it as, "Hey, I'm willing to give it to him. Why should he be upset if I'm not howling at the moon right along with him?" But the answer to that is that men and women _both_ want their spouse to enjoy them physically. When that physical pleasure isn't mutual, it cheapens what sex was meant to be between spouses. And men and woman deserve to have that kind of sexually fulfilling relationship. And when it's absent, for whatever reason, it can, and does, cause issues. The fact that this particularly seems to be an area that you don't understand is what continues to worry me. Because as unimportant as it seems to you, it can make or break the sexual relationship. 

If I knew that my husband didn't physically enjoy having sex with me, but did it just to make me happy, I wouldn't have married him. Period. And if he suddenly changed and said he didn't enjoy sex, I'd take him to be medically examined, and if it turned out he was fine and had just lost physical interest in sex, I'd leave him. And it wouldn't be because I'd lost my love for him, or that my love lessened. On the contrary. Because I love him so much, I couldn't continue to be with him. That love leads me to desire him sexually. Lustfully. I would feel empty and abandoned if he lost physical interest in our sexual relationship. 

Your fiance hasn't really given you satisfying sex, so you may not know what that looks like yet and that mat be why there's a bit of a divide between what you see and what the rest of us see.



> I appear to be alone on that.


It's because what you see simply doesn't work in marriage. It just doesn't. So many men and women have been incompatible with their spouses sexually, and come here; some of them want more sex, some of them want less. It makes a crazy mess of things. 



> Sex is not the only way to show love or intimacy. Sex for the sole sake of physical gratification is a hobby, not a need.


But people, in marriage, don't have sex for the sole sake of physical gratification 100% of the time. That's what fooling around is for. Sex in marriage can be more physical than intimate at times, but with the full commitment and sexual exclusivity in marriage even the physical gratification involves intimacy by default. You seem to not quite grasp that. The very fact that a husband and wife are sexually exclusive makes even the lustful, wild, sex for physical gratification, an act of intimacy. 



> Leaving someone over monthly sex, if they do everything else right...leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


Then you should find someone who is compatible with your sexual tastes. Because, I guarantee you, someone on the other side of the spectrum would say, "Staying with someone even when you're sexually unsatisfied leaves a bad taste in my mouth." Heck, I'd say that. 



> Everyone has the right to do what they want. That means saying no. It also means leaving if you so choose.


Both spouses have the "right" to say no. That's true. And I'm sure that in most marriages "No" is said by both spouses at times. But when a person focuses more on _their_ right to say no, than their spouse's emotional need for physical intimacy, there is a divide that won't easily be fixed. And, imo, they should find someone who is sexually compatible with them. I know you think that you should be able to just continue on as you have been, but as your fiance matures, his sexual needs will change and the likely hood of your current process fulfilling him for the rest of his life is slim to none.



> We are all entitled to our own bodies and lives.


Yes. But marriage complicates things. It's not that your rights as an individual disappear, because they don't. But they change. If you're dating someone, and you want to save sex for marriage, you are entitled to say that. And even if you're in a four year long relationship, the person you're with MUST respect that boundary, or find someone else. But in marriage it's not so simple. Sure, you could say no as often as you want, but you shouldn't expect the other person to stick around. Imo, it's incredibly cruel to expect a man or woman to be sexually exclusive, and then marry someone you're not sexually compatible with. It's just not right.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> But no one has said this at all. In fact, every person in this thread has said that no one should feel like they have to have sex with their partner every single time he or she wants it. I have said no to my husband before. My husband has said no to me before.
> 
> What HAS been said here is that, in a relationship where the two people aren't sexually compatible, it's going to be difficult for either of them to totally understand the other. The LD person will feel angry and resentful because they're giving more than they're comfortable with, and the HD person will feel angry and resentful because the LD person will respond the way you have: "I don't need a reason to say no, I'm just saying no." For a HD person this can be shattering. Some marriages make it work. It's not like it's impossible. But many don't.
> 
> ...


I would never, ever trap someone into monogamy and then deny them sex (there are varying degrees of what people consider "denying but still) 

That's just mean.

Thus why I don't do it and have no intention of doing it.

I love my fiancé and I think breaking up just so he can find some nympho is really stupid, especially when he's explained he doesn't just want "sex" he wants sex with *me*.

Meaning even if he did that, he wouldn't be satisfied.

Though men have affairs every day so I don't know how much of that I buy. 



Biology is a cruel mistress but aren't base animals. I'm not going to let something so primitive be the making or breaking factor in my relationship. I am willing to do whatever he wants sexually, with a few limitations, which is already a lot more than most "LD" people are willing to do.

Yes, he's in pouty mode right now because he wants me to enjoy the sex. And I'm trying to but every time it's over and he looks at me with puppy dog eyes and goes "So...?" I feel like a piece of ****. Just this morning we were fooling around (I started it even though I hate mornings because I said no to him the other night) and he starts trying to have sex and I offered him a bj instead. Normally he'd jump but this time he was suspicious. He asked if I keep offering those because the sex is so bad and it's easier for me this way. It was horribly, horribly awkward. 

My mother told me once that the only place honesty works is church...

I don't agree with that but I kind of see her point.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Knowing that there are plenty of reasons for marriages to end is the only way we, as humans, can really do our best to keep our own marriage afloat.



Yes!

You almost never hear a woman complaining that her boyfriend has become inattentive; that he doesn't listen to her or hug her anymore; that he's gained 90 pounds, quit showering and spends all his free time lying on the couch watching television.

Similarly, you almost never hear a man complaining that his girlfriend has become unaffectionate, that she refuses to even kiss him anymore, let alone have sex with him; that she's completely chopped off her beautiful head of hair and now slops around the house all day in dirty, threadbare sweats.

These kinds of complaints are far more common among married couples. Marriage is a great thing. It stabilizes the relationship in many ways. But it's really, really easy for all of us to take advantage of that stability and fall into patterns of bad behavior just because we can.


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> But no one has said this at all. In fact, every person in this thread has said that no one should feel like they have to have sex with their partner every single time he or she wants it. I have said no to my husband before. My husband has said no to me before.
> 
> What HAS been said here is that, in a relationship where the two people aren't sexually compatible, it's going to be difficult for either of them to totally understand the other. The LD person will feel angry and resentful because they're giving more than they're comfortable with, and the HD person will feel angry and resentful because the LD person will respond the way you have: "I don't need a reason to say no, I'm just saying no." For a HD person this can be shattering. Some marriages make it work. It's not like it's impossible. But many don't.
> 
> ...


You are very smart woman and you have nailed it. Your husband is a very lucky man to have a wife that understands this and says it out loud. Those very things you have talked about have come full cirlce in my almost 14 year marriage and it has become a disaster. My wife and I see eye to eye on basically everything except sex. We are so far apart on sex that it has started to affect everything else. We have resentment towards each other because I press the issue so much and she avoids it so much. 10 years ago even though it was as big a problem as it is now we coped in our own way but never fixed the problem (cant be fixed). Now I am just tired of it and I have had all I can stand, so to me I think I just don't want sex at all anymore that way there is no expectation. The problem with that is I know that I'm not gonna give up sex for the rest of my life and I would never cheat so that only leaves one option. I think it is not a question of if but when. Even if my wifes sex drive completely changed today I don't know if I could forgive her for all the years in the past so it still might not fix things. The bottom line is we should have talked about this when we first started out and maybe we would have realized we just couldn't find a suitable compromise for us both.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

> If I knew that my husband didn't physically enjoy having sex with me, but did it just to make me happy, I wouldn't have married him. Period. And if he suddenly changed and said he didn't enjoy sex, I'd take him to be medically examined, and if it turned out he was fine and had just lost physical interest in sex, I'd leave him. And it wouldn't be because I'd lost my love for him, or that my love lessened. On the contrary. Because I love him so much, I couldn't continue to be with him. That love leads me to desire him sexually. Lustfully. I would feel empty and abandoned if he lost physical interest in our sexual relationship.


All of C2W post was great, but I wanted to pull this bit out. That's the key right there. Living with my husband if he wasn't interested in sex with me and was just going along with it would be incredibly painful. I'd have to leave, not as a punishment, but because I would grieve so much, every day. 

I don't know why you quote what your mother has to stay on stuff so much, LB, since you say she was a terrible parent and didn't have a successful marriage. Who cares what she thinks?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> All of C2W post was great, but I wanted to pull this bit out. That's the key right there. Living with my husband if he wasn't interested in sex with me and was just going along with it would be incredibly painful. I'd have to leave, not as a punishment, but because I would grieve so much, every day.
> 
> I don't know why you quote what your mother has to stay on stuff so much, LB, since you say she was a terrible parent and didn't have a successful marriage. Who cares what she thinks?


I understand this now. It just took....a while to sink in. I honestly thought it was an ego trip..."I need you to enjoy this to prove I'm a sex god." 

Well, my mother was the only one who ever gave me any kind of advice. It wasn't very good advice but I appreciated the fact she was trying to help me, so I took it to heart.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> You rather artfully disregarded the rest of that post.
> 
> I didn't say anyone was wrong for leaving over monthly sex.
> 
> ...


It's not a bad reason to leave for those who care about the sexual aspect of the relationship. Many LD people could care less about the sexual aspect, believing that there are other more important things that marriage can fulfill. Which is, technically, true. Sex isn't _the_ most important thing in marriage. However, to a higher drive person sex is going to be _one_ of the most important things in marriage, so the idea that sex is less important than other things isn't going to make a sh!t of difference in how they feel when rejected. 

I'm a sociable person. I love to talk. I like talking to people online, I like talking to people when I'm at the gym or at school or at church or visiting family. Communication is essential in every kind of relationship that exists, and I place a large emphasis on communication and honesty. Are there _more_ important things than communication in marriage? Sure. I can think of a few things. Will the relationship last very long if my husband reserves his right to talk to me only when he feels like it? Nope. He's not a social butterfly like me. He doesn't feel the need to talk a lot, like I do. He has a personal right to talk to whom he wants when he wants. But without his communication in our relationship, the other more important aspects of our relationship would suffer. I wouldn't feel loved. I wouldn't feel wanted. I wouldn't feel like he gave a crap about me. 

Now, you say you're more than willing to have sex, you just don't think you should have to want it as much as your fiance. If my husband "just talked" with me because he knew I liked to talk, how long do you think I could really communicate with him before I realized he could care less? Even though he loves me and sees how happy I am after a conversation, he would be utterly naive if he thought that I would feel fulfilled after years of half-hearted conversation. 

It may seem like a bad reason to leave _to you_, but for many people it's a legitimate concern. Relationships aren't about an individuals rights, they're about two people working together, and often putting aside their rights, to make the atmosphere of their relationship a better place. 

Do you have the say yes every time the man you're with wants sex? No. I don't. But is it okay for you to only say yes when you feel like it, if you only feel like it once every two weeks? Nope. Not unless your partner wants it as often as you do. Otherwise, it's incompatibility.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> In an ideal world, marriage vows would count for something other than how often two people get naked.
> 
> But whatever.
> 
> ...


LB, I'm glad you and your fiance aren't getting married any time soon. You have an absolutely terrible idea of how marriage works. To you, it's all black and white. No middle ground, but marriage is rarely, if ever, that way. 

Yes, marriage vows count for something other than how often two people get naked. There a lot of reasons for sexual frequency to fluctuate. No one here is saying that the husband and wife should always put out, no matter what, and if they don't then they're SOL. No one is saying that. 

But you, a lower drive individual, being engaged to a healthy, horny young man barely into his twenties, is _concerning_, especially because you continue to respond with sarcasm and anger and defensiveness. It's not like we think you're some horrible person who should never get married just because you don't like sex. What IS being said is that you and your fiance are, more than likely, not a good match for each other. 

And I totally understand why you're holding onto him so tightly. You've explained it, and I get that. And the idea that you probably aren't the right girl for him is offensive. I don't blame you for feeling put out. But I really think you should examine if it's true. Being on the outside looking it to all that you have explained of your relationship, I don't think that either of you are right for each other, so it's not just you. I really think that, unless you can fix your mentality surrounding sex, and until he can fix is incredible lack of maturity, that the two of you will have nothing but problems for the duration of your relationship. You think that you can just keep giving him sex, but even in this post it is CLEAR that that is the last thing you want. 

So why do it?

Love will never, ever, solve your issues. It can, and often is, a motivator for couples to fix their issues, but I can tell you, there are plenty of issues love can't fix. I had an ex I loved more than anything, but he was an alcoholic. Let me tell you, no amount of love I had for him or he for me was enough to get through that. He didn't even want to try. Love is not all-powerful, like the fairy tales lead us to believe. After sixty some pages you're still seeing sex the same way now as you did on page one. Which is fine, if the person you're with has the same take it or leave it attitude when it comes to sex, but your fiance doesn't. 

Love won't fix that.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> You don't get it at all.
> 
> I get a great deal of intimacy from sex. A great deal.
> 
> ...


LB, your fiance is immature and has, in the past, been very selfish. Your experience with sex hasn't been a normal one. I doubt anyone here would advocate being woken up in the middle of the night and coerced into sex, which has been said more than once. I don't know why you're reverting back to that. 

But the fact is that in a _marriage_, sex IS a relational need. I'm trying to think of a new way to explain it, because I feel like all of my other examples just didn't get through since we're back to square one now...but I can't think of any. 

What happened to you trying to work through your aversion to physically enjoying sex? I thought you were going to work on that as well? Have you talked to your fiance about focusing more on you during sex instead of himself?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> It might not be, but it is harder.
> 
> If I go to a movie with my wife and I don't like it, my disinterest doesn't affect her enjoyment. She's not personally offended, because she didn't produce, edit, act in, or film the movie. My disinterest is completely unrelated to our relationship. Likewise for meals, chores, etc.
> 
> Sex with a disinterested partner soon becomes 1) obvious and 2) unfulfilling, because rejection, disinterest, or boredom with the only thing on earth that you require from one and only one person is VERY personal.


Precisely. This. ^ Well put.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I'm not interested in sex but I'm interested in him. I don't fake it per say, but I do try to follow his lead. I've never faked an orgasm, he's never even asked if I've had one.
> 
> Disinterested how? Like flat back stare at the ceiling?
> 
> ...


You don't have to be screaming from an orgasm to enjoy the physical aspect. I only orgasm in one position, but I get a lot of physical fulfillment from numerous positions, orgasm or no orgasm.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, I'm glad you and your fiance aren't getting married any time soon. You have an absolutely terrible idea of how marriage works. To you, it's all black and white. No middle ground, but marriage is rarely, if ever, that way.
> 
> Yes, marriage vows count for something other than how often two people get naked. There a lot of reasons for sexual frequency to fluctuate. No one here is saying that the husband and wife should always put out, no matter what, and if they don't then they're SOL. No one is saying that.
> 
> ...


I have Borderline Personality Disorder.

Black and white thinking is one of the nastier, more difficult side effects to overcome. 

People call it flip flopping or dishonesty but for me, my entire world view can change based on the tiniest comment or the drop of a hat. People are either good or all bad. There is freedom and there is slavery and all that jazz.

I realize it's not the best way to look at things but it takes extra, extra effort on my part not to.

So I'm going to try to put that aside when I read what you wrote.

I think sex is important. 

I think sex is, or can be, beautiful and bonding and all that.

I also find it daunting. Daunting to know that whatever life brings, I have to keep ****ing or face divorce.

Divorce is not an option for me. At all. So I'll do whatever it takes. 

I don't like having to live with that in the back of my head all the time but I do because it's the truth. 

As evolved as we like to call ourselves, if there's an inadequate amount of sex then nothing else matters.

BUT at the same time, he is my best friend. He's the only friend I've ever had.

And I'm not really a normal person. I can't just go out and bond with another human being. 

He's honest to God the only person who has ever given a **** about me at all, in 20 years of life.

I won't let sex take that away. I just won't, I'll find a way to fix it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I would never, ever trap someone into monogamy and then deny them sex (there are varying degrees of what people consider "denying but still)
> 
> That's just mean.
> 
> ...


Which is really sweet of him. I'm sure he means it. I really am. But, I think if he were to be completely honest, he would want to have sex with you, _and_ know that you enjoy it too. If he knew that 9 times out of 10 you got no physical gratification, it would likely dampen his view on your sexual relationship.



> Though men have affairs every day so I don't know how much of that I buy.
> 
> 
> 
> Biology is a cruel mistress but aren't base animals. I'm not going to let something so primitive be the making or breaking factor in my relationship. I am willing to do whatever he wants sexually, with a few limitations, which is already a lot more than most "LD" people are willing to do.


It is. I'll give you that. _But_ the frequency and your willingness aren't the issues. The issues arise from your apparent and continuous lack of enjoyment, and the fact that you believe you will be able to maintain this process indefinitely. I disagree so strongly I can't express it enough. It's very honorable that you're so willing to make him happy. But you are naive if you think it will last.



> Yes, he's in pouty mode right now because he wants me to enjoy the sex. And I'm trying to but every time it's over and he looks at me with puppy dog eyes and goes "So...?" I feel like a piece of ****. Just this morning we were fooling around (I started it even though I hate mornings because I said no to him the other night) and he starts trying to have sex and I offered him a bj instead. Normally he'd jump but this time he was suspicious. He asked if I keep offering those because the sex is so bad and it's easier for me this way. It was horribly, horribly awkward.
> 
> My mother told me once that the only place honesty works is church...
> 
> I don't agree with that but I kind of see her point.


You HAVE to be honest with him. He won't know what really is the best decision for him if you aren't honest. I'm sure that was awkward. But this is the reality. Men want their wives to enjoy sex, and there is nothing wrong or selfish in that. In fact, it's pretty selfLESS, if you ask me. That a man enjoys sex more when he knows his wife enjoys it too...THAT truly is love. And it proves that sex is about far more than a wet vagina, even though you keep going back to that. 

I am really concerned for you and your fiance. He's proving all of us right by getting upset when you don't enjoy sex. What we have all been saying is unfolding in your life as we speak, and yet you maintain that sex shouldn't be so important. That what your doing should be enough. I don't know what you think will happen in five or seven years, but if you "just doing it" is already starting to not be enough, why would things change as the years go by?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, your fiance is immature and has, in the past, been very selfish. Your experience with sex hasn't been a normal one. I doubt anyone here would advocate being woken up in the middle of the night and coerced into sex, which has been said more than once. I don't know why you're reverting back to that.
> 
> But the fact is that in a _marriage_, sex IS a relational need. I'm trying to think of a new way to explain it, because I feel like all of my other examples just didn't get through since we're back to square one now...but I can't think of any.
> 
> What happened to you trying to work through your aversion to physically enjoying sex? I thought you were going to work on that as well? Have you talked to your fiance about focusing more on you during sex instead of himself?


I am trying to work on it.

Really and truly, I'm trying to like it. Hell, I tried watching some porn with him and I ended up bursting into laughter and turning it off. Terrible acting...how can anyone be aroused by "ohh baby hit me one more time" or whatever the hell it is. 

But the point is, I can change my actions easily.

The attitude is harder.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I have Borderline Personality Disorder.
> 
> Black and white thinking is one of the nastier, more difficult side effects to overcome.
> 
> ...


Okay. Then _listen_ to what we are telling you here. Arguing back and forth, and using extremes to define the norm, and being so defensive when we are trying to help, is never going to get you anywhere. Obviously we all give a sh!t about you, or we wouldn't still be posting. We care about you, even though we have never met you, and we really are trying to help you succeed in this journey. But you are going to have to cut the snappy attitudes. People only put up with that for so long. And you are going to have to learn to listen to what's being said. Many, many people here have lived what you're determined to put yourself through, and they know what worked and what didn't. Since you're unwilling to try and find someone else in this life who is more compatible, you have to learn to accept that change is absolutely inevitable if this situation is ever going to pan out.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I am trying to work on it.
> 
> Really and truly, I'm trying to like it. Hell, I tried watching some porn with him and I ended up bursting into laughter and turning it off. Terrible acting...how can anyone be aroused by "ohh baby hit me one more time" or whatever the hell it is.
> 
> ...


Porn isn't essential to any relationship, just so you know. I've never watched it and never intend to watch it and my husband doesn't watch it. 

It's good that you're trying, though the attitude is definitely the most important part. It will determine whether the changes in your actions will be short or long term. And hey, at least you know what really needs the change.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Okay. Then _listen_ to what we are telling you here. Arguing back and forth, and using extremes to define the norm, and being so defensive when we are trying to help, is never going to get you anywhere. Obviously we all give a sh!t about you, or we wouldn't still be posting. We care about you, even though we have never met you, and we really are trying to help you succeed in this journey. But you are going to have to cut the snappy attitudes. People only put up with that for so long. And you are going to have to learn to listen to what's being said. Many, many people here have lived what you're determined to put yourself through, and they know what worked and what didn't. Since you're unwilling to try and find someone else in this life who is more compatible, you have to learn to accept that change is absolutely inevitable if this situation is ever going to pan out.



Yes ma'am....:yay::yay:


----------



## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Okay. Then _listen_ to what we are telling you here. Arguing back and forth, and using extremes to define the norm, and being so defensive when we are trying to help, is never going to get you anywhere. Obviously we all give a sh!t about you, or we wouldn't still be posting. We care about you, even though we have never met you, and we really are trying to help you succeed in this journey. But you are going to have to cut the snappy attitudes. People only put up with that for so long. And you are going to have to learn to listen to what's being said. Many, many people here have lived what you're determined to put yourself through, and they know what worked and what didn't. Since you're unwilling to try and find someone else in this life who is more compatible, you have to learn to accept that change is absolutely inevitable if this situation is ever going to pan out.



She is on target again. Me and my wife are not compatible. We have allot in common same faith, beliefs, same interest but sex to me is top three importance and bottom three for her. That has put a tremendous strain on us. I love my wife more than anybody and she loves me but love doesn't conquer all. The truth is of we had been having sex a frequent I wanted too she would be miserable and wanting out. Some issues are to important and couples are to far apart on to compromise so both are happy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, I'm glad you and your fiance aren't getting married any time soon. You have an absolutely terrible idea of how marriage works. To you, it's all black and white. No middle ground, but marriage is rarely, if ever, that way.
> 
> Yes, marriage vows count for something other than how often two people get naked. There a lot of reasons for sexual frequency to fluctuate. No one here is saying that the husband and wife should always put out, no matter what, and if they don't then they're SOL. No one is saying that.
> 
> ...


Eh, now that you mentioned the words I bolded, I just realized that. Does our advice fell into deaf ears? Or, maybe it goes into the ears of one personality, but it was the other personality who responded? 

Anyway, I think what Mrs. C2W write here is spot on, and could also be applicable not only to Miss LB's situation, but also to all you good LD people out there who are seriously considering on marrying an HD person despite incompatibilities.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Probably because the effort it takes to get off the couch and hug someone and the effort it takes to give up your body in the most intimate way when you really have no desire to do so is considerably different.
> 
> Men are programmed to enjoy sex as a biological necessity, so it makes sense that you would get "more" out of it physically/emotionally and all that in many cases.
> 
> ...


Firstly, no one is saying that it takes as much effort to get off the couch to give a hug as it does to have sex. That said, for many couples, sex are far outweighed by hugs. I know I give my fiancee most of the time at least one hug a day, some times many hugs in a day. As many as she wants. I don't even THINK about sex everyday, nevermind suggest it, and nevermind actually have it. 

Additionally, who says that the man doesn't put in a lot of effort as well regarding sex? Often, if we are the one who wants it more than our partner, we are the one working to get her in the mood, and then the one often doing more of the actually effort in the bedroom (not to belittle the effort the women puts in, as I am sure that allowing someone into your body is indeed work). 

Finally, a hug is just one example. If I took my fiancee out to dinner or out to a movie that I'm not really to interested in being at but I know she is, is not giving up two hours of my time in the effort to maybe get her in the mood for what will likely amount to 10 minutes of PiV sex not a significant effort? 

And no, I don't do those things simply as a trade off for sex, I do them as a no-strings attached effort to make my beautiful lady happy. I'm just using them as examples.



LittleBird said:


> I feel like there are very few people here who can even begin to speak for the low drive/refuser whatever


I 110% agree. I wish we had more input from the other side of the coin. This is why I'm grateful you are here and encourage you to keep posting, even if sometimes what you write makes me want to scratch my brain with a chainsaw.



LittleBird said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Well after our big "sex talk" he asked...and I just looked at him blankly. He got sort of upset but hey, at least I didn't lie to him.
> 
> ...


And that's his problem. He needs to grow up and work on upping his game, not pouting in the corner.



LittleBird said:


> You're kidding me, right? I just specifically stated I DID NOT LIE TO HIM.
> 
> He never ASKED before we had the talk.
> 
> ...


It's even less confusing when you say the word no, not just look at him like a mime.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Additionally, who says that the man doesn't put in a lot of effort as well regarding sex? Often, if we are the one who wants it more than our partner, we are the one working to get her in the mood


LOL This is how it went at my house for many years:

*She initiates:* She gently pulls her collar back with the tip of her little finger to reveal that she's not wearing an 'everyday' bra:

Total elapsed time: 1/2 second
Success rate: >99%


*I initiate:* I pick her up after work and take her to a restaurant she likes. I buy her a frozen margarita. Maybe two. We chat about her day for an hour or so. We go home an put on soft music while I massage her feet, calves and back. Gradually as the touch becomes more intimate she may ease into the mood

Total elapsed time: >2 hours
Success rate <30%


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> LOL This is how it went at my house for many years:
> 
> *She initiates:* She gently pulls her collar back with the tip of her little finger to reveal that she's not wearing an 'everyday' bra:
> 
> ...


This has to be the most depressing thing I've read in a long time.I don't think you're lying about it but it's so fantastically unreal to me that this is the case.I can't get my brain to wrap around women being this way.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

And the whole thing about a woman not being "in the mood" just doesn't compute with me. I know my personal experience doesn't define the norm for the entirety of the female population, but it isn't a sacrifice for me to have sex when I'm not feeling like it. Before, while I was on birth control, I "felt" like having sex once a week. Since being off of birth control, I "feel" like having sex never. But emotionally I *crave* it. And by the time I'm worked up, I'm hot and ready most of the time. 

Birth control messed me up. Even though I've been off of it since October/November, I'm still having sex drive issues. Emotionally I'm roaring to go at any given moment, but physically my body just hasn't caught up yet. It does sometimes, and I think things are going back to what they were before BC, but then everything just dissipates. It p!sses me the heck off. My husband works his butt off at a job he hates and comes home and is loving and caring and tender, more so now than he ever has been before, and it takes conscious effort throughout the whole day for me to work myself into it. And I freaking _love_ sex. I always have. I'll never use BC again for as long as I live, I swear. I told my husband that I refuse to let some hormonal effects define how much I want sex. I will kick this in the end, if it is the last thing I do. And at least he knows I'm not trying to avoid sex. I never have and never will. I refuse to let it beat me. 

So, for me, someone who had an incredibly high drive when I first started having sex(no less than once a day for months on end...sometimes twice...often three times), to now suddenly have to work myself into it...it angers me. Because I know that I'm not normally like this, and my husband has been utterly patient and long-suffering. But, I've been exercising and eating healthy foods, so I'm having more energy and concentration so I hope and pray to God in heaven that the normal me comes back. But even now, with the issues, it isn't a sacrifice to spend the whole day thinking about sex, thinking about his body, and working myself up. In fact, it improves my reaction to his kisses and caresses. "Feelings" are entirely within our own control.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This has to be the most depressing thing I've read in a long time.I don't think you're lying about it but it's so fantastically unreal to me that this is the case.I can't get my brain to wrap around women being this way.


Ironically, this sounds like a good majority of woman.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Firstly, no one is saying that it takes as much effort to get off the couch to give a hug as it does to have sex. That said, for many couples, sex are far outweighed by hugs. I know I give my fiancee most of the time at least one hug a day, some times many hugs in a day. As many as she wants. I don't even THINK about sex everyday, nevermind suggest it, and nevermind actually have it.
> 
> Additionally, who says that the man doesn't put in a lot of effort as well regarding sex? Often, if we are the one who wants it more than our partner, we are the one working to get her in the mood, and then the one often doing more of the actually effort in the bedroom (not to belittle the effort the women puts in, as I am sure that allowing someone into your body is indeed work).
> 
> ...


Kingsfan, I think you understand me better than most.

The way your fiancé was at the beginning is much like how I am now. "Typical man." 

When I get home from work and the first question is a)where is dinner and b) babe, you wanna come to bed? 

It makes it difficult NOT to feel like a glorified glory holy with the added bonus of cooking, cleaning and bringing home a paycheck. 

I know my fiancé loves me, I *feel* that he does but every time he does something nice for it, it ends with sex. Now I'm not saying he's intentionally trying to *buy* sex....but that's kind of how it ends up.

Sex can be a reward sometimes (diamond necklace, whatever, you'd kind of be a ***** not to put out) but now it feels like a reward all the time.

And I mean, a reward for WHAT? issed:

I know a lot of the men on here say they do a,b,c,x,y,z for their wives and still get turned down...but maybe they are doing things, just not the RIGHT things to reach her.

I think I understand his love language and I thought he understood mine....he's not technically doing anything *wrong*....so it's hard to explain why I feel put upon for sex.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LB, sex is not a "reward" for anything. Just you thinking like that tells me you've not progressed very much. Hang in there!


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> LB, sex is not a "reward" for anything. Just you thinking like that tells me you've not progressed very much. Hang in there!


I know you're not supposed to directly come out and say it but if a man takes a woman out to a 500 dollar dinner and buys her jewelry, you can't tell me he doesn't expect to get some. 

Everything is a reward, just a diluted form of a reward.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Ironically, this sounds like a good majority of woman.


Not likely...


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Kingsfan, I think you understand me better than most.
> 
> The way your fiancé was at the beginning is much like how I am now. "Typical man."
> 
> ...


While I do think your fiance needs to adjust his thinking(because meeting your spouses needs should never be done just so you can get yours met), there is a fine line between what you see as a reward, and the rest of us see as normalcy in marriage. 

Sex isn't "a reward". I don't give my husband sex when he meets my needs, and then suddenly withhold it from him when he messes up. That's petty. However, I do still make an effort to meet his needs, just as he makes an effort to meet mine. So it can _look_ like a reward, even when it's not one. 

Your fiance needs to stop being lazy. Have you been enforcing boundaries? Telling him what emotional needs you have and helping him learn how to meet them? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the only boundary you've enforced is that you won't have sex every day. While that is a start, on its own, it's nothing more than...well, forcing him to take less sex than he wants. Again, maybe I'm wrong. I can't see into your relationship.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It makes it difficult NOT to feel like a glorified glory holy with the added bonus of cooking, cleaning and bringing home a paycheck.


This feeling of being a sex toy is emotional cancer and it will spread. It's the thing that has other posters telling you that you're not compatible with your guy. I know you're determined that he's the one but if you feel like a GH or he views you as such then how can it possibly work out?


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I know you're not supposed to directly come out and say it but if a man takes a woman out to a 500 dollar dinner and buys her jewelry, you can't tell me he doesn't expect to get some.


I bought my wife $5,000 rings to replace her lost ones. We did NOT make love that night or that week. Getting laid wasn't the reason for me wanting to replace them. I did it to show her that I LOVED her.

Think of how many hookers I could have got for 5k. :rofl:


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I know you're not supposed to directly come out and say it but if a man takes a woman out to a 500 dollar dinner and buys her jewelry, you can't tell me he doesn't expect to get some.
> 
> Everything is a reward, just a diluted form of a reward.


Surprisingly enough, there _are_ men in this world who enjoy spoiling their wives every now and then...because they love them, not because they want sex. My husband, if he had the money, would love to spoil me with jewelry, and the only reason he would "expect" to get some is because he knows that I would be floored and shocked and would likely p!ss myself at the sight of a $500 piece of jewelry, and then would have no way of expressing my delight except sex. But he wouldn't buy it just so he could get it. And expecting it wouldn't be, "I bought you shiny jewelry, so now I expect you to have sex with me." 

And, on the other side of that coin: if he spent that much money on me at one time, I would be an utterly undeserving fool if I expected _not_ to have sex with him. 

Let me put it this way: if I spent $500 on my husband, like I bought him a gun or a knife or a new car part or something, I wouldn't do it expecting to get sex in return. Or expecting to get something equally as expensive from him. Or expecting to get my needs met. I'd spend that money because I love him and he deserves something extra special every now and then. 

But I _know_ my husband. Doing something like that for him, all unexpected, would make him go nuts with desire. Before even playing with his new gift he would want to "thank me". That's the same with us having sex when he buys me something. It's not an expectation; I'm just saying "thank you" in the best way I can.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> I bought my wife $5,000 rings to replace her lost ones. We did NOT make love that night or that week. Getting laid wasn't the reason for me wanting to replace them. I did it to show her that I LOVED her.
> 
> Think of how many hookers I could have got for 5k. :rofl:


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

You're totally right but it is the old adage....

Family guy Advert for Diamonds - YouTube


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> This feeling of being a sex toy is emotional cancer and it will spread. It's the thing that has other posters telling you that you're not compatible with your guy. I know you're determined that he's the one but if you feel like a GH or he views you as such then how can it possibly work out?


Precisely. 

If and when he does mature, his sexual desires will mature with him. Already the sex is starting not to fulfill him. It's not LB's actions that necessarily need to change, but her attitudes surrounding sex. I'm hoping that enforcing boundaries and things will at least help, but so far I don't see that any boundaries have been enforced besides not having sex every day. And that alone won't accomplish much.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> This feeling of being a sex toy is emotional cancer and it will spread. It's the thing that has other posters telling you that you're not compatible with your guy. I know you're determined that he's the one but if you feel like a GH or he views you as such then how can it possibly work out?


I know that HE does not view me as sex toy.

Which is at least a good start.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I know that HE does not view me as sex toy.
> 
> Which is at least a good start.


Yes, that's good. But you still _feel_ like one. So does he treat you like a sex toy? Or is this feeling of you being a sex toy created in your own mind?


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This has to be the most depressing thing I've read in a long time....


...Even more so when you consider that the first scenario (She initiates) was pretty much reserved for anniversaries and (sometimes) birthdays, while the latter (I initiate) was at least weekly.

But I'm not complaining at all. That's typical HD/LD and it's water under the bridge at this point.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This has to be the most depressing thing I've read in a long time.I don't think you're lying about it but it's so fantastically unreal to me that this is the case.I can't get my brain to wrap around women being this way.


No, he's certainly not lying about it.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> It's not a bad reason to leave for those who care about the sexual aspect of the relationship. Many LD people could care less about the sexual aspect, believing that there are other more important things that marriage can fulfill. Which is, technically, true. Sex isn't _the_ most important thing in marriage. However, to a higher drive person sex is going to be _one_ of the most important things in marriage, so the idea that sex is less important than other things isn't going to make a sh!t of difference in how they feel when rejected.
> 
> I'm a sociable person. I love to talk. I like talking to people online, I like talking to people when I'm at the gym or at school or at church or visiting family. Communication is essential in every kind of relationship that exists, and I place a large emphasis on communication and honesty. Are there _more_ important things than communication in marriage? Sure. I can think of a few things. Will the relationship last very long if my husband reserves his right to talk to me only when he feels like it? Nope. He's not a social butterfly like me. He doesn't feel the need to talk a lot, like I do. He has a personal right to talk to whom he wants when he wants. But without his communication in our relationship, the other more important aspects of our relationship would suffer. I wouldn't feel loved. I wouldn't feel wanted. I wouldn't feel like he gave a crap about me.
> 
> ...


How the heck are you not published yet? Keep writing with this passion and you'll be a best seller. You already are around here.



LittleBird said:


> I also find it daunting. Daunting to know that whatever life brings, I have to keep ****ing or face divorce.


You can actually say no from time to time and not have him walk away, have an affair or serve you with divorce papers.



Created2Write said:


> Men want their wives to enjoy sex, and there is nothing wrong or selfish in that. In fact, it's pretty selfLESS, if you ask me. That a man enjoys sex more when he knows his wife enjoys it too...THAT truly is love.


That's the best I've ever seen that expressed. Well done C2W! 

:allhail:



ScarletBegonias said:


> This has to be the most depressing thing I've read in a long time.I don't think you're lying about it but it's so fantastically unreal to me that this is the case.I can't get my brain to wrap around women being this way.


Sad to say that it is very common as well.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks kingsfan!  Well, I'm not trying to published yet. But I'm working on it. Nice to know I have some fans. lol.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> LOL This is how it went at my house for many years:
> 
> *She initiates:* She gently pulls her collar back with the tip of her little finger to reveal that she's not wearing an 'everyday' bra:
> 
> ...


Substitue margarita with McDonald's, music with (insert random TV show here) and 'pulls back collar' to 'If you want some, hurry up' and I'm 100% with you for my ex-wife. Hence why there is an ex in front of her name (amongst 1,000 other reasons).



LittleBird said:


> Kingsfan, I think you understand me better than most.
> 
> The way your fiancé was at the beginning is much like how I am now. "Typical man."
> 
> ...


Well put LB. It is an easy trap to fall into, on both sides.



LittleBird said:


> I know you're not supposed to directly come out and say it but if a man takes a woman out to a 500 dollar dinner and buys her jewelry, you can't tell me he doesn't expect to get some.
> 
> Everything is a reward, just a diluted form of a reward.


This depends on the situation. If you are on just fourth date with someone and he hauls out a diamond necklace before taking you to a $500 dinner, you bet he's expecting to got rode like a rodeo bull later that evening.

But not so for someone you are engaged to, or in a similar commited relationship. I am planning on taking my fiancee out to dinner on Valentine's Day, giving her a dozen long-stem roses, a diamond-embedded bracelet with the engraving 'T+S ((our initials, it will be our full names but I don't feel comfortable writing our names here) 2008 - eternity' and below it the quote "May our love be so strong, God himself can not untwine it" and capping it off with a promise to take her to see her favorite band when they are back in Canada (Def Leppard, she's an 80's child, lol). I'd have the tickets already, but I don't think they are coming back to Canada for a bit yet, but the money is there and it's something she's wanted for about 25 years.

And not in any of that is there an unwritten expectation of sex. Sure, it'd be great, but if it doesn't happen, then it doesn't happen. There's always the next day, or the next week. It'll happen, and it'll be awesome, just like all of the sex with my fiancee feels, because I love her, think she's incredible and enjoy being with her at an unimaginable level, even if we have our differences on some issues sexually.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> My husband, if he had the money, would love to spoil me with jewelry, and the only reason he would "expect" to get some is because he knows that I would be floored and shocked and would *likely p!ss myself at the sight of a $500 piece of jewelry, and then would have no way of expressing my delight except sex.*


That's a real...ummm... unique fetish you got there 



LittleBird said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> You're totally right but it is the old adage....
> 
> Family guy Advert for Diamonds - YouTube


As inaccurate as it is, I always laughed at that scene on Family Guy. 



Created2Write said:


> Thanks kingsfan!  Well, I'm not trying to published yet. But I'm working on it. Nice to know I have some fans. lol.


You have plenty of fans around here. Being unbiased, openminded and full of passion tends to have that affect. Good on you!


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Substitue margarita with McDonald's, music with (insert random TV show here) and 'pulls back collar' to 'If you want some, hurry up' and I'm 100% with you for my ex-wife. Hence why there is an ex in front of her name (amongst 1,000 other reasons).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ****ing hate Valentine's Day. It's the most ridiculous, depressing idiotic day of the year that's just designed to make people spend money.

My fiancé hinted not so subtly that he wanted me to bust out the lingerie. 

I have a lot of lingerie and he's seen most of it. So cool, now I have to go buy more.

I can plan it right now. 

Dinner. Jewels...last year it was a diamond/sapphire bracelet that is literally thousands of years old, it has been in his family since the dawn of time. It is stunning and I'm afraid to ask how much it's worth, I don't even wear it because I'm in such awe of it. Yay, he loves me I'm so happy. So then we'll get home....

Bedroom....5-6 hours of sex that I'm supposed to stay involved in the whole time. By hour 2, my strength will be waning and my sexy talk will have faded to whatever words I can remember from last weeks Grey's Anatomy. 

The next morning, I will wake to feel something very awake poking me in the butt. My name will be whined twice in a half awake voice and he will climb aboard before I even get a chance to form my lips to say "I'm sore." That sound last about 10-20 minutes. I'll then make him go sleep on the couch so I can go wash the sheets and Febreeze the entire house because it smells like sex. Wash, rinse, repeat. 

Ah....Valentine's Day.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I ****ing hate Valentine's Day. It's the most ridiculous, depressing idiotic day of the year that's just designed to make people spend money.
> 
> My fiancé hinted not so subtly that he wanted me to bust out the lingerie.
> 
> ...


*Sigh* Oh boy, if you feel like that why participate? :scratchhead: Some don't celebrate it, eh.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I ****ing hate Valentine's Day. It's the most ridiculous, depressing idiotic day of the year that's just designed to make people spend money.
> ...
> 
> Ah....Valentine's Day.


I don't know why you two aren't on an airplane to Vegas to tie the knot This Very Minute. What could possibly go wrong?

There are plenty of folks here who will write pages and pages of elegant prose to explain to you their well considered viewpoints. That's never been my style. 

You have so much ambivalence about your sex life it hurts my eyes to read your posts and I find myself getting whiplash. Gawdammit, woman, stay the hell away from marriage until you get this sorted out. Tell your fiance that if he needs 5 hours for sex more than 3 times a year to invest in a high-end call girl - unless this is hyperbole for argument's sake.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I ****ing hate Valentine's Day. It's the most ridiculous, depressing idiotic day of the year that's just designed to make people spend money.
> 
> My fiancé hinted not so subtly that he wanted me to bust out the lingerie.
> 
> I have a lot of lingerie and he's seen most of it. So cool, now I have to go buy more.


Why don't you like lingerie? 



> I can plan it right now.
> 
> Dinner. Jewels...last year it was a diamond/sapphire bracelet that is literally thousands of years old, it has been in his family since the dawn of time. It is stunning and I'm afraid to ask how much it's worth, I don't even wear it because I'm in such awe of it. Yay, he loves me I'm so happy. So then we'll get home....


I sense sarcasm here with the "Yay he loves me". A gift like that is...pretty substantial. Was it that the feeling of love was negated by the knowledge that you "had" to have sex when you got home?



> Bedroom....5-6 hours of sex that I'm supposed to stay involved in the whole time. By hour 2, my strength will be waning and my sexy talk will have faded to whatever words I can remember from last weeks Grey's Anatomy.


Five to six hours?! WTH?! I don't my husband and I have had sex longer than two hours, and that was including the oral sex he gave me in the beginning. Make it clear to him *NOW* that there won't be five to six of hours of sex this Valentine's Day. And there won't be sex the next morning either, unless _you_ initiate it. 



> The next morning, I will wake to feel something very awake poking me in the butt. My name will be whined twice in a half awake voice and he will climb aboard before I even get a chance to form my lips to say "I'm sore." That sound last about 10-20 minutes. I'll then make him go sleep on the couch so I can go wash the sheets and Febreeze the entire house because it smells like sex. Wash, rinse, repeat.
> 
> Ah....Valentine's Day.


I love Valentine's Day. It's one of the three days of the year that my husband knows he _must_ be romantic.  The other two are our anniversary and my birthday. And he usually comes up with something great. I don't know what he's doing for me this year, but I'm excited to find out. It isn't meant to be a chore.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> *Sigh* Oh boy, if you feel like that why participate? :scratchhead: Some don't celebrate it, eh.


I just think the the entire day is frivolous and dumb. I mean, I have NEVER really liked what it stands for or the message it sends about love.

"In order to show you love me, you must take me to dinner and buy me flowers."

"In order to love me, you must hop on my choo choo train."

The whole day is commercialized crap but of course that is just my opinion.

I'd much rather stay home with a glass of wine then go to some overcrowded restaurant.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I love Valentine's Day. It's one of the three days of the year that my husband knows he _must_ be romantic.  The other two are our anniversary and my birthday. And he usually comes up with something great. I don't know what he's doing for me this year, but I'm excited to find out. It isn't meant to be a chore.


Yeah, nothing makes a guy feel more romantic than having a gun held to his head. 

I've got the powder burns to prove it. Thanks for reminding me of my upcoming hostage situation again.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I just think the the entire day is frivolous and dumb. I mean, I have NEVER really liked what it stands for or the message it sends about love.
> 
> "In order to show you love me, you must take me to dinner and buy me flowers."
> 
> ...


The light dawns.

You're a dude trolling TAM! Tuiasosopo, is that you?


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I think you have outdone yourself, LittleBird. Great post.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I don't know why you two aren't on an airplane to Vegas to tie the knot This Very Minute. What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> There are plenty of folks here who will write pages and pages of elegant prose to explain to you their well considered viewpoints. That's never been my style.
> 
> You have so much ambivalence about your sex life it hurts my eyes to read your posts and I find myself getting whiplash. Gawdammit, woman, stay the hell away from marriage until you get this sorted out. Tell your fiance that if he needs 5 hours for sex more than 3 times a year to invest in a high-end call girl - unless this is hyperbole for argument's sake.


It is actually not hyperbole at least not based on last year.

We break for a minute, cuddle and the next thing I know his boner is back so time to go again.

Literally all night.

My problem is with the entire concept of Valentine's Day....I just don't like ti.

I love romantic stuff but Valentine's Day feels so forced....it's Feb 14 so you MUST BE ROMANTIC OR ELSE.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I just think the the entire day is frivolous and dumb. I mean, I have NEVER really liked what it stands for or the message it sends about love.
> 
> "In order to show you love me, you must take me to dinner and buy me flowers."
> 
> ...


I really disagree. Maybe I'm too romantic, but I see it as a special day designed to acknowledge the special person in your life. Sure, there are the cliche things like chocolates or jewelry or fancy dinner dates and roses and red heart-shaped balloons or teddy bears, but you don't have to buy _those_ things to have a great Valentine's. This year, instead of spending tons of money on a fancy dinner, we're going to my parents place and I'm making the four of us a nice tilapia dinner with desert and everything. I think it will be a great time, and whatever we have planned for each other will be super fun. 

It's not frivilous or dumb to someone, like me, whose emotional needs involve getting flowers and going on dates and getting attention, special attention, from my husband. My two top needs are admiration and affection, and even though he meets those needs on a daily basis, it's nice to get extra special things a few times a year.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I really disagree. Maybe I'm too romantic, but I see it as a special day designed to acknowledge the special person in your life. Sure, there are the cliche things like chocolates or jewelry or fancy dinner dates and roses and red heart-shaped balloons or teddy bears, but you don't have to buy _those_ things to have a great Valentine's. This year, instead of spending tons of money on a fancy dinner, we're going to my parents place and I'm making the four of us a nice tilapia dinner with desert and everything. I think it will be a great time, and whatever we have planned for each other will be super fun.
> 
> It's not frivilous or dumb to someone, like me, whose emotional needs involve getting flowers and going on dates and getting attention, special attention, from my husband. My two top needs are admiration and affection, and even though he meets those needs on a daily basis, it's nice to get extra special things a few times a year.


Oh, I am a huge romantic. 

But I dislike the way Valentine's Day has seemingly turned into a contest of who is willing to shell out the most money to "prove" that they love someone.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, nothing makes a guy feel more romantic than having a gun held to his head.
> 
> I've got the powder burns to prove it. Thanks for reminding me of my upcoming hostage situation again.


LOL. Psssh. It's not like _that_. I'm not going to slice him open or torment him while he sleeps if he doesn't live up to my expectations. Frankly, what we usually do for Valentine's Day is pretty low-key. And, for the record, Valentine's Day is mutual. I'm expected to get him something special too, and sex doesn't count, since it's for both of us, not just him. 

So, no burns or scars or being held hostage for him. I'm sorry it's different for you.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> It is actually not hyperbole at least not based on last year.
> 
> We break for a minute, cuddle and the next thing I know his boner is back so time to go again.
> 
> ...


If you don't like, don't participate. Let him know what you want to do. If you don't want anything special, then by all means, let him know. It's meant to be a _mutual_ holiday, even though a lot of women tend to have a monopoly over it. *shrug* I see it as a day to do something extra special for your spouse, just because you love them. I mean you could do this at any time, it's not limited to Feb. 14th or anything, but hey. It's about half way between our last anniversary and our upcoming anniversary, so we enjoy it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Oh, I am a huge romantic.
> 
> But I dislike the way Valentine's Day has seemingly turned into a contest of who is willing to shell out the most money to "prove" that they love someone.


I just don't see that. Never have. It's not like my friends and I get together and flash around who got what from their SO's on Valentine's Day, so I don't see where the competition comes from at all.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I ****ing hate Valentine's Day. It's the most ridiculous, depressing idiotic day of the year that's just designed to make people spend money.
> 
> My fiancé hinted not so subtly that he wanted me to bust out the lingerie.
> 
> ...


You are just making yourself to be the victim, but the only one victimizing you is you.

You HAVE to buy new lingerie? Umm, I doubt it. Are you saying your fiancee has said he only wants to see lingerie on you once and that's it, never again? I doubt it if he's a warm-blooded man.

You can't say stop after two hours of sex? You can't tell him no in the morning? BS!

Stop playing the victim and tell him no when you want to. This isn't rocket science.



LittleBird said:


> I just think the the entire day is frivolous and dumb. I mean, I have NEVER really liked what it stands for or the message it sends about love.
> 
> "In order to show you love me, you must take me to dinner and buy me flowers."
> 
> ...


Then do that. Who says you have to go out to dinner? YOU do. 



LittleBird said:


> I love romantic stuff but Valentine's Day feels so forced....it's Feb 14 so you MUST BE ROMANTIC OR ELSE.


And on Christmas I MUST GET YOU A GIFT OR ELSE, and on your birthday I MUST GET YOU A GIDT AND BE NICE OR ELSE, and on Mother's Day I MUST CALL MY MOM OR ELSE....

The date is forced onto us, but the sentiments behind it should be shared all year round, it's just this one particular day we take to focus exclusively on it. It's a good thing.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> It's meant to be a _mutual_ holiday, even though a lot of women tend to have a monopoly over it. *shrug* I see it as a day to do something extra special for your spouse, just because you love them.


Hey, I'm all for women getting exclusivity to February 14th, provided there was a corresponding promotion of March 14th :smthumbup:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> You are just making yourself to be the victim, but the only one victimizing you is you.
> 
> You HAVE to buy new lingerie? Umm, I doubt it. Are you saying your fiancee has said he only wants to see lingerie on you once and that's it, never again? I doubt it if he's a warm-blooded man.
> 
> ...



That post was made in jest and humor.

I'm not actually resentful of any of that. It isn't about being the victim.

Valentine's Day is just kind of a joke to me. It's just a little bit funny.

We can go on like that for years, I don't care and it makes him happy. 

It's nice and all but my point is I don't *need* all of that.

That wasn't remotely serious.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> *You are just making yourself to be the victim, but the only one victimizing you is you.*
> 
> You HAVE to buy new lingerie? Umm, I doubt it. *Are you saying your fiancee has said he only wants to see lingerie on you once and that's it, never again? I doubt it if he's a warm-blooded man.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes and yes. I agree. It goes along with the issue of boundaries being enforced. Which, interestingly enough, LB has(perhaps mistakenly?) avoided my questions about whether or not she was enforcing other boundaries besides the not-having-sex-everyday. 



> Then do that. Who says you have to go out to dinner? YOU do.


By agreeing, and not voicing her own opinion and desires for Valentine's Day, that is exactly what's happening. She's angry at the day itself, when she should look at where the issues are coming from..._herself_.



> And on Christmas I MUST GET YOU A GIFT OR ELSE, and on your birthday I MUST GET YOU A GIDT AND BE NICE OR ELSE, and on Mother's Day I MUST CALL MY MOM OR ELSE....
> 
> The date is forced onto us, but the sentiments behind it should be shared all year round, it's just this one particular day we take to focus exclusively on it. It's a good thing.


Thank you. I was trying to say this, but couldn't really piece it together. You said it better.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> The whole day is commercialized crap but of course that is just my opinion.


We feel the same way. We haven't celebrated it in the 28 years we've been together. It's just another day in our books. We're prefer to be spontaneous. That and I can get roses 99.9% OFF the following day. lol


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I just don't see that. Never have. It's not like my friends and I get together and flash around who got what from their SO's on Valentine's Day, so I don't see where the competition comes from at all.


You haven't met my friends. Clearly. Usually goes something like this:

"MY BOYFRIEND TOOK ME TO THE SWISS ALPS"

"OH SHUT UP CECILIA MY BOYFRIEND TOOK ME TO PARIS"

"OH YEAH WELL I LET MY BOYFRIEND..."

Blah, blah, squawk blah...shut up, shut up, shut up....

:soapbox:

Oh and as for the boundaries: Well, we usually do have sex everyday but sometimes I do say no and he gets a bit upset but we're working on it. He thinks I avoid sex because it's bad on the days I say no. Which is partly true but that's not the real issue.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Hey, I'm all for women getting exclusivity to February 14th, provided there was a corresponding promotion of March 14th :smthumbup:


Steak and BJ day! I concur! 

Perhaps I'll instigate this this year and surprise my husband....


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> That post was made in jest and humor.
> 
> I'm not actually resentful of any of that. It isn't about being the victim.
> 
> ...


I'm serious.... unless I get called on it and can't argue it. Then I'm actually kidding, even though I said I want to learn from posters and would be very clear on what it was I was saying... Oh, I was kidding about that too.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> That post was made in jest and humor.
> 
> I'm not actually resentful of any of that. It isn't about being the victim.
> 
> ...


It sounded dead serious, fyi. It seems that a lot of your supposed "joking" posts are taken seriously. I'm no shrink, but it does seem like you enjoy playing the victim somewhat, but then when someone calls it out, you change your tune. Cause, hon, that post didn't have an ounce of joking at all. I could be wrong, but it seems to have happened many times in this thread.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You haven't met my friends. Clearly. Usually goes something like this:
> 
> *"MY BOYFRIEND TOOK ME TO THE SWISS ALPS"
> 
> ...


I suggest a lower class group of friends.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> That post was made in jest and humor.
> 
> I'm not actually resentful of any of that. It isn't about being the victim.
> 
> ...


I don't think people "get" how sarcastic you can really be. I "get" it. I'm the same way, twisted and evil. :rofl: 

I try not to show it when writing though.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I suggest a lower class group of friends.


Really? I suggest a higher class, myself.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> You haven't met my friends. Clearly. Usually goes something like this:
> 
> "MY BOYFRIEND TOOK ME TO THE SWISS ALPS"
> 
> ...


You sound like you have highly immature "friends". Anyone with an iota of self-worth would realize that Valentine's Day isn't a competition. 

He needs to know that his suspicions are partly true, though. Otherwise mutually satisfying sex will never be something the two of you share. You can't be so afraid of hurting his feelings. If he really loves you the way you think he does, then he'll _learn_ from what you say to him. And since you're the one who isn't satisfied, you can't just leave it at "No, it's not the greatest". You have to try and tell him what it is you need sexually. 

Also, what _is_ the real issue, and have you explained it to him?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Really? I suggest a higher class, myself.


Well, I don't really have "friends" I have people who come to my parties, eat my food, sit with me at lunch and go to the mall with me. And who will look great in my wedding photos. 

I like them just find but I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Really? I suggest a higher class, myself.


Well, he meant "lower" as in, Paris and Swiss Alps are NOT necessities on Valentine's Day. So, "lower class" = lower expectations. 

You mean higher character, I assume. 

And I agree with both of you.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

t&t said:


> i don't think people "get" how sarcastic you can really be. I "get" it. I'm the same way, twisted and evil. :rofl:
> 
> I try not to show it when writing though.


thank you! 

:d


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You haven't met my friends. Clearly. Usually goes something like this:
> 
> "MY BOYFRIEND TOOK ME TO THE SWISS ALPS"
> 
> ...


Just in case you thought we hadn't noticed how you like to remind us of your social status, circle of friends, and financial situation - 

We noticed.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Really? I suggest a higher class, myself.


I meant lower class in terms of financial wellbeing. If you think you need to fly your GF to the Swiss Alps to properly show them a good Valentine's Day, you sound either uneducated or spoiled. Likely a combination of the two.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Well, he meant "lower" as in, Paris and Swiss Alps are NOT necessities on Valentine's Day. So, "lower class" = lower expectations.
> 
> You mean higher character, I assume.
> 
> And I agree with both of you.


Um, yeah. I didn't expect anyone would feel obligated to explain it.

Someone who is called "low class" is rarely having their actual social status revealed.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Um, yeah. I didn't expect anyone would feel obligated to explain it.
> 
> Someone who is called "low class" is rarely having their actual social status revealed.


Don't hate. I like to talk.  And I like explaining things.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> You sound like you have highly immature "friends". Anyone with an iota of self-worth would realize that Valentine's Day isn't a competition.
> 
> He needs to know that his suspicions are partly true, though. Otherwise mutually satisfying sex will never be something the two of you share. You can't be so afraid of hurting his feelings. If he really loves you the way you think he does, then he'll _learn_ from what you say to him. And since you're the one who isn't satisfied, you can't just leave it at "No, it's not the greatest". You have to try and tell him what it is you need sexually.
> 
> Also, what _is_ the real issue, and have you explained it to him?


The real issue is that I'm just not in the frame of mind to have sex as much as he'd like to. Honestly, I'd probably open up and enjoy it more about 1-2 times a week. When I'm really and truly horny I can go for hours. 

But when I'm not I just want it to be done with, while trying to be respectful at the same time and being present. 

Well, I don't know...an orgasm would be nice. But I don't really need one. I have fingers, I can always go do it later. 

But 1-2 times a week and he'd be cranky, cranky, cranky and I'd rather have sex with him then deal with THAT. It's like a slow poison.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Just in case you thought we hadn't noticed how you like to remind us of your social status, circle of friends, and financial situation -
> 
> We noticed.


Oh my God, even when I'm trying to make a joke I'm in the wrong.

Seriously people, it's not always serious. 

That had nothing to do with that. 

And BTW, my parents would slap the **** out of me if I ever suggested such idiocy for a holiday.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Oh my God, even when I'm trying to make a joke I'm in the wrong.
> 
> Seriously people, it's not always serious.
> 
> ...


A'ight, 'twas a joke.

Well isn't my face all red now?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> The real issue is that I'm just not in the frame of mind to have sex as much as he'd like to. Honestly, I'd probably open up and enjoy it more about 1-2 times a week. When I'm really and truly horny I can go for hours.
> 
> But when I'm not I just want it to be done with, while trying to be respectful at the same time and being present.


The issue here is that 1-2 times a week isn't going to starve him, and I'm curious to know how you would respond if the frequency dropped to 1-2 times a week. Like, perhaps, after a period of time of having sex 1-2 times a week when you're actually horny, you'd start to want it more? Feeling pressure to have sex can be a major turn off. 

However, would he feel fulfilled with that?

Talk to him. Ask him how he would feel dropping down to 1-2 times a week, and tell him why you would consider doing that. Even if he's cranky or upset at mentioning it, explain that you're trying to learn to like sex. You're not trying to make him go without it to be mean, but to experiment. And, frankly, experimentation can be fun. He should be open to it and not insist that frequency stay the same. 



> Well, I don't know...an orgasm would be nice. But I don't really need one. I have fingers, I can always go do it later.


Nope. If he gets one, you should get one. Enforce this. It is VITALLY important to a mutually satisfying sex life. 



> But 1-2 times a week and he'd be cranky, cranky, cranky and I'd rather have sex with him then deal with THAT. It's like a slow poison.


Your choices are the slow poison, hon. You keep backing yourself into a corner because you're dependent on him being happy all the time, while you keep getting more resentful. If this issue is ever going to be resolved, it will involve total honesty on your part, and risk him being upset. But so long as you communicate and you let him know that you're trying to learn to like sex, he shouldn't take it quite so personally. I mean, it isn't 100& his fault. You've not spoken up until now, so tell him that to. Apologize for misleading him all this time, and tell him that you really do want sex to be mutually enjoyable but you need him to work with you, and that will involve some experimenting with fluctuating frequencies and him giving you oral sex more often, and it will involve you telling him what works to bring you to orgasm and what doesn't. Point being, he'll need to toughen up and work with you if this is ever going to have a happy ending.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> The date is forced onto us, but the sentiments behind it should be shared all year round, it's just this one particular day we take to focus exclusively on it. It's a good thing.


Anniversary is plenty for me. Wanna remember any other dates? Remember the day we met. Remember where we went on our first date. Remember the first movie we saw together. Things like that. I prefer he remember our anniversary and keep THAT day specific for romance. Valentine's Day? Meh... I get cards for the kids to give out at school and that's good enough. If he feels the need to get me something special for Valentine's Day, carnations will do. And I also prefer staying at home, just watching a movie with the family.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Oh my God, even when I'm trying to make a joke I'm in the wrong.
> 
> Seriously people, it's not always serious.
> 
> ...


Try making your jokes more obvious. And, the *rolls eyes* smilie isn't obvious. Try using other icons to show that you're joking cause, apparently, no one else here(except one person) saw anything but resentment and anger. That makes it difficult to help you, because you have said yourself that personality changes on a whim. So, to us, you are playing the victim and then denying it later, even if you genuinely believe you're not. 

I mean, posters here have called you out saying you don't even want help, that you do nothing but lie in your posts, and you maintain that you're not lying. These confusing posts come across as incredibly hostile to 99% of the posters here, and then you say you were joking...what the hell are _we_ supposed to do, exactly? I'm worried about how communication goes between you and your fiance, honestly.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> The issue here is that 1-2 times a week isn't going to starve him, and I'm curious to know how you would respond if the frequency dropped to 1-2 times a week. Like, perhaps, after a period of time of having sex 1-2 times a week when you're actually horny, you'd start to want it more? Feeling pressure to have sex can be a major turn off.
> 
> However, would he feel fulfilled with that?
> 
> ...


I'm in a weird phase right now where I'm actually horny more often, so 2-3 times week would work great. I usually get myself off a couple times a day, so it's not like I'm frigid. 

And as for getting an orgasm, I'm not great at giving directions...okay, I'm terrible at it. I can do it really easily myself but I don't really know how to step by step him to the right place.

He says he is willing to work with me. Like, his mouth says it. But his body language is pissy if he doesn't get what he wants.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I'm in a weird phase right now where I'm actually horny more often, so 2-3 times week would work great. I usually get myself off a couple times a day, so it's not like I'm frigid.


So you tell him you'd like to drop it to 2-3 times a week, but you don't enforce that boundary at all; then you say 1-2 times a week would be better, and when I try to offer some advice, suddenly it's back to 2-3 times a week? Color me confused. 

Which is it? 1-2 times a week or 2-3 times a week?



> And as for getting an orgasm, I'm not great at giving directions...okay, I'm terrible at it. I can do it really easily myself but I don't really know how to step by step him to the right place.


This takes practice. My husband being my first and only, I had no idea what I wanted him to do let alone how to ask him to do it. I failed a few times. Hurt his feelings once or twice by being a bit too...blunt. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. His feelings are going to be hurt a little. He'll toughen up if he's worth being with at all. And as he learns how to please you orally, you'll learn how to teach him.



> He says he is willing to work with me. Like, his mouth says it. But his body language is pissy if he doesn't get what he wants.


Too bad for him. If he gets pissy, call him out. Respectfully, don't get pissy back, but ask him if he means what he says. He can't tell you he's willing to work with you without actually working with you. Actions are more important here, not words.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> The real issue is that I'm just not in the frame of mind to have sex as much as he'd like to. Honestly, I'd probably open up and enjoy it more about 1-2 times a week. When I'm really and truly horny I can go for hours.
> 
> But when I'm not I just want it to be done with, while trying to be respectful at the same time and being present.
> 
> ...


I thought you didn't even like sex? Now you're getting horny 1-2 a week?

Also, once again, if he's cranky, let him deal with it. It's a short-term thing I assume, not an ongoing long-term drop.



Created2Write said:


> Nope. If he gets one, you should get one. Enforce this. It is VITALLY important to a mutually satisfying sex life.


I'm curious on your opinion C2W, what if one person doesn't want to have orgasm, or even if say the woman jsut can't orgasm? 

Frankly, as long as the sex is regular and not several days inbetween, I'm fine if I don't orgasm but my fiancee does, and vice versa. There is the odd time I can't orgasm (very rare but does happen) and she has difficulties orgasming too, so we don't worry about the 'if you get one, so do I' rule.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Too bad for him. If he gets pissy, call him out. Respectfully, don't get pissy back, but ask him if he means what he says. He can't tell you he's willing to work with you without actually working with you. Actions are more important here, not words.


Bingo. He can't say he'll do something, then get pissy when you ask him to do it.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> So you tell him you'd like to drop it to 2-3 times a week, but you don't enforce that boundary at all; then you say 1-2 times a week would be better, and when I try to offer some advice, suddenly it's back to 2-3 times a week? Color me confused.
> 
> Which is it? 1-2 times a week or 2-3 times a week?
> 
> ...


1-2 times would be standard. But in my weird horniness phase 2-3 times. I am sort of a roller coaster but I normally want some sexual contact everyday (even if it's just my hand) or a nice, deep kiss. I don't need to go all out all the time.

My fiancé is also my first so I got no clue.........on what it would take to have a vaginal O or even if I can.

And you're right. We need to have another talk.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> I thought you didn't even like sex? Now you're getting horny 1-2 a week?
> 
> Also, once again, if he's cranky, let him deal with it. It's a short-term thing I assume, not an ongoing long-term drop.
> 
> ...


LOL, I'm horny A LOT.

Sex doesn't relieve my horny though. Thus why I don't like it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> I thought you didn't even like sex? Now you're getting horny 1-2 a week?
> 
> Also, once again, if he's cranky, let him deal with it. It's a short-term thing I assume, not an ongoing long-term drop.


My thoughts exactly.



> I'm curious on your opinion C2W, what if one person doesn't want to have orgasm, or even if say the woman jsut can't orgasm?


For the former, I've been there. There are times when I tell my husband I don't want oral and we still have sex. But we have what I would consider to be a normal, healthy relationship. LB and her fiance don't. Imo, he needs to learn that, unless she says she doesn't want an orgasm(which I realize I should have said to begin with), she should get one, even if it takes him months to learn how to please her. As for the latter, I can't say I've heard of women being unable to orgasm through clitoral stimulation...but if so, then of course they should still have sex. The man should do whatever he can to make it pleasurable for her since she can't orgasm.



> Frankly, as long as the sex is regular and not several days inbetween, I'm fine if I don't orgasm but my fiancee does, and vice versa. There is the odd time I can't orgasm (very rare but does happen) and she has difficulties orgasming too, so we don't worry about the 'if you get one, so do I' rule.


I agree with this in most situations. Again, I just think her fiance is being selfish still and not being true to his commitment to help her.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Try making your jokes more obvious. And, the *rolls eyes* smilie isn't obvious. Try using other icons to show that you're joking cause, apparently, no one else here(except one person) saw anything but resentment and anger. That makes it difficult to help you, because you have said yourself that personality changes on a whim. So, to us, you are playing the victim and then denying it later, even if you genuinely believe you're not.
> 
> I mean, posters here have called you out saying you don't even want help, that you do nothing but lie in your posts, and you maintain that you're not lying. These confusing posts come across as incredibly hostile to 99% of the posters here, and then you say you were joking...what the hell are _we_ supposed to do, exactly? I'm worried about how communication goes between you and your fiance, honestly.


I don't get all of it but get the jist of it. LB, I agree that you should try and be more serious or, at least, less sarcastic. lol I know that separating the sarcasm and the situation you're in will be difficult, but I rarely post anything sarcastic on forums. It can be taken so many different ways...

LB, I wonder how much sarcasm is used when telling your bf that he's not getting any? 

SARCASM IN RELATIONSHIPS


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> My fiancé is also my first so I got no clue.........on what it would take to have a vaginal O or even if I can.


And that means you can have months and years of trying to find out. I can think of a lot worse things to study up on. ENJOY FINDING OUT! :smthumbup:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not LD. I love orgasms and kissing, fondling blah blah.

Just not sex. Does nothing for me. So sometimes I'll be horny and I'll start the ball rolling but it just ends in frustration. 

He does oral once in a blue moon but it's not really that good.

But we have very strong chemistry and my body does react to him.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> LOL, I'm horny A LOT.
> 
> Sex doesn't relieve my horny though. Thus why I don't like it.


Does he give you oral?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Does he give you oral?


Sometimes but it's never gotten me off.

I really think my damn vagina is broken.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Sometimes but it's never gotten me off.
> 
> I really think my damn vagina is broken.


Or his tongue is.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm not LD. I love orgasms and kissing, fondling blah blah.
> 
> Just not sex *with him*. Does nothing for me. So sometimes I'll be horny and I'll start the ball rolling but it just ends in frustration.
> 
> ...


There. I fixed your statement.

Now you should fix your situation.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> 1-2 times would be standard. But in my weird horniness phase 2-3 times. I am sort of a roller coaster but I normally want some sexual contact everyday (even if it's just my hand) or a nice, deep kiss. I don't need to go all out all the time.


Okay. Well, acceptable frequency is between you and him. Twice a week seems to be the average of what you'd be comfortable with, so ask him if he would be alright with twice a week while you two work through the communication process.



> My fiancé is also my first so I got no clue.........on what it would take to have a vaginal O or even if I can.


I didn't orgasm vaginally until over a year after being sexually active. And it wasn't like we tried the position for the first time and I got one. We'd done that position dozens of times before, but that particular time, everything clicked. But don't base your satisfaction on having a vaginal orgasm. Many women can't. Which is why it is important for him to learn how to please you orally, and for you to learn how to teach him. And it can be as simple as taking your time with foreplay. Rushing into it can really effect how long it takes me to cum, so at times I've had to just gently tell my husband(who loves sex so much he thinks that five or even ten minutes of foreplay is enough) to slow down and tease me. (I looooooooooooooooooove being teased. Damn, it's sublime.) 

Taking your time with foreplay and arousal can make all the difference.



> And you're right. We need to have another talk.


 Try not to make it _too_ serious. Sex should be fun and exciting and pleasurable, and the last thing you want is for his first reaction to sex to be a negative one. The goal here is mutual satisfaction, not the extreme where one person is satisfied and the other is resentful. So try to talk about your own responsibilities in the sexual relationship getting to this point. If your fiance is like my husband, he likely shuts down when he feels that he's being blamed for something that isn't entirely his fault. It helps my husband to hear me say, "I'm to blame in this as well, and I apologize for xyz."


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Oh, really important...make sure you give him a lot of praise when he does things right. It will go a long way to making him feel more appreciated. Positive reinforcement usually works better than constant hounding.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

T&T said:


> He's 20. He probably doesn't have a clue what he's doing... Time to buy another book. I hope he likes reading!


OMG... that reminds me of American Pie!! :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I'm not LD. I love orgasms and kissing, fondling blah blah.
> 
> Just not sex. Does nothing for me. So sometimes I'll be horny and I'll start the ball rolling but it just ends in frustration.


So everything up to PIV you like, except for oral, which you say isn't that good? 



> He does oral once in a blue moon but it's not really that good.
> 
> But we have very strong chemistry and my body does react to him.


Do you think he rushes through the fondling and kissing? I know when my husband does that on occasion and I'm not fully aroused it subtracts from the satisfaction. And being wet does not mean you're fully aroused. I still have to remind my husband on occasion, "Slow down. It's not a race. I'll still be here in another twenty minutes." lol. He laughs, and it's not that he's being insensitive. It's that he's excited. He wants to be in me ASAP. It's totally okay to take it slowly and milk the moment for all that it's worth.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Quote Kingsfan: Does he give you oral? 



LittleBird said:


> Sometimes but it's never gotten me off.
> 
> I really think my damn vagina is broken.


Yea. he needs to stay on the trigger but not rapid fire until the gun is hot.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Quote Kingsfan: Does he give you oral?
> 
> 
> 
> Yea. he needs to stay on the trigger but not rapid fire until the gun is hot.


Or at least be prepared to swap out the barrel.
:gun:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> There. I fixed your statement.
> 
> Now you should fix your situation.


He was the first person I ever consented to sex with so...I can't blame it on his lack of skill, that would be unfair. It could be me.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> So everything up to PIV you like, except for oral, which you say isn't that good?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think he rushes through the fondling and kissing? I know when my husband does that on occasion and I'm not fully aroused it subtracts from the satisfaction. And being wet does not mean you're fully aroused. I still have to remind my husband on occasion, "Slow down. It's not a race. I'll still be here in another twenty minutes." lol. He laughs, and it's not that he's being insensitive. It's that he's excited. He wants to be in me ASAP. It's totally okay to take it slowly and milk the moment for all that it's worth.


I like the oral I just don't O from it. And even then, he tries so hard I feel bad that I'm unable to orgasm for all that effort. He can spend 15 minutes down there and it's nice but....no magic moment that he's waiting for. 

THANK YOU! Being wet does NOT mean I'm all ready to go. I'm wet most of the time anyway, doesn't mean I want sex atm. 

God bless you.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I like the oral I just don't O from it. And even then, he tries so hard I feel bad that I'm unable to orgasm for all that effort. He can spend 15 minutes down there and it's nice but....no magic moment that he's waiting for.


The first time I orgasmed from oral sex, it took well over thirty minutes. And even to this day it can take me a good fifteen minutes to orgasm, sometimes even more if I had a stressful day. It doesn't help if my husband is in a hurry. He likes to attack, attack, attack, but I need slow and steady. So maybe he's not really doing what's right for you?



> THANK YOU! Being wet does NOT mean I'm all ready to go. I'm wet most of the time anyway, doesn't mean I want sex atm.
> 
> God bless you.


lol. No problem.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He was the first person I ever consented to sex with so...I can't blame it on his lack of skill, that would be unfair. It could be me.


It doesn't have to be fair if it's true.

The universe has no sense of equity.

It also doesn't mean that he isn't trainable if he understands that training is required. You'll find that there is a semi-infinite pool of eager students just hanging around here - who's to say your boyfriend isn't one of them?

You won't know until you make it very clear that his grades are below passing, and if he doesn't want double secret probation, he'll need to do some work. 

But dammit, you know all this, and I feel foolish for repeating it.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> It doesn't have to be fair if it's true.
> 
> The universe has no sense of equity.
> 
> ...


But thank you anyway.

You remind me of an angry uncle who still occasionally consents to bring me candy.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I didn't orgasm vaginally until over a year after being sexually active. And it wasn't like we tried the position for the first time and I got one. We'd done that position dozens of times before, but that particular time, everything clicked. But don't base your satisfaction on having a vaginal orgasm. Many women can't. Which is why it is important for him to learn how to please you orally, and for you to learn how to teach him. And it can be as simple as taking your time with foreplay. Rushing into it can really effect how long it takes me to cum, so at times I've had to just gently tell my husband(who loves sex so much he thinks that five or even ten minutes of foreplay is enough) to slow down and tease me. (I looooooooooooooooooove being teased. Damn, it's sublime.)
> 
> Taking your time with foreplay and arousal can make all the difference.


As C2W said, some women don't O vaginally. I am one of them. It doesn't mean you can't have a satisfying sex life if you don't have them. Yea, I know, my sex life needs to be booted a bit lol. But it isn't due to lack of orgasms nor lack of type of orgasms. Instead of focusing on all of that, focus on what you enjoy about it. What he does that is enjoyable. And work from there.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> LOL, I'm horny A LOT.
> 
> Sex doesn't relieve my horny though. Thus why I don't like it.


Masturbation is sex. Does masturbation relieve the hornies where getting jiggy with your fiance not?

Is it you can't get off with another person, you can't get off with men, or you can't get off with him? I know....how could you know if you gave you V to him. 

These are rather important distinctions. The abuse makes your sex and security issues...problematic as well as YOUR self awareness of those issues.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Masturbation is sex. Does masturbation relieve the hornies where getting jiggy with your fiance not?
> 
> Is it you can't get off with another person, you can't get off with men, or you can't get off with him?
> 
> These are rather important distinctions. The abuse makes your sex and security issues...problematic as well as YOUR self awareness of those issues.


I can't get off with him.

I can get myself off and do, quite often. 

But it's not because I'm not attracted to him because I am!


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Do you stimulate your clitoris during PIV?


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> *My fiancé is also my first so I got no clue.........*on what it would take to have a vaginal O or even if I can.
> 
> And you're right. We need to have another talk.


Um...let's talk now.

How is it you were sexually abused but he is your first? Particularly when you said that you were beaten to hospitalization if you didn't give it up. You said you were abused into your teenaged years. But while an abuser might only force a child into oral, there is no such barrier for using a teenaged girl.

I do not understand this.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I can't get off with him.
> 
> I can get myself off and do, quite often.
> 
> But it's not because I'm not attracted to him because I am!


Does it relieve the hornies?

Attraction, love and ability to be sexually intimate are not all the same.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> Um...let's talk now.
> 
> How is it you were sexually abused but he is your first? Particularly when you said that you were beaten to hospitalization if you didn't give it up. You said you were abused into your teenaged years. But while an abuser might only force a child into oral, there is no such barrier for using a teenaged girl.
> 
> I do not understand this.


The first person I had CONSENSUAL sex with, as a stated in an earlier post.

And...what? I'm sorry but....a 250lb man can force a 105lb girl no matter what age she is....

And there was nothing remotely intimate or pleasurable about the experience.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> Do you stimulate your clitoris during PIV?


No, I've never tried. Besides, the positions we do it in I really can't. Good idea!


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> No, I've never tried. Besides, the positions we do it in I really can't. Good idea!


It's how most women who can't orgasm from PIV (including me) get our O, try positions you can do it (there is PLENTY) or modify the positions you do to allow access to do it, it totally improves sex :smthumbup:


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> No, I've never tried. Besides, the positions we do it in I really can't. Good idea!


Umm, it's usually not that hard, unless you're handcuffed ankles to wrists with a ball gag in your mouth and a midget duct taped to your midsection. 

That's the only time my wife has had trouble reaching herself during sex. What the hell positions were YOU referring to?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Umm, it's usually not that hard, unless you're handcuffed ankles to wrists with a ball gag in your mouth and a midget duct taped to your midsection.
> 
> That's the only time my wife has had trouble reaching herself during sex. What the hell positions were YOU referring to?


I'm usually on my stomach (can't do it) or in doggy (would lose balance.)

But I could do it in missionary


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

The more you say LB the more I totally understand why sex doesn't do much for you physically lol


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm usually on my stomach (can't do it) or in doggy (would lose balance.)
> 
> But I could do it in missionary


Then have HIM do it. If in a position where YOU would be unable to reach, have him do it. He needs to know what it takes to do it too. What pressure, speed, etc. Teach him!


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Umm, it's usually not that hard, unless you're handcuffed ankles to wrists with a ball gag in your mouth and a midget duct taped to your midsection.
> 
> That's the only time my wife has had trouble reaching herself during sex. *What the hell positions were YOU referring to?*


I was wondering the same thing! LOL


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

When I'm on my stomach my husband stimulates my clitoris while we're also doing PIV and...oh...my....*GOD*....the sensation is indescribable.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> When I'm on my stomach my husband stimulates my clitoris while we're also doing PIV and...oh...my....*GOD*....the sensation is indescribable.


Totally agree :smthumbup:


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

abitlost said:


> The more you say LB the more I totally understand why sex doesn't do much for you physically lol


:iagree: Research is needed by both of you.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> :iagree: Research is needed by both of you.


When he gets home I'm going to lay down the law.

I'm having an orgasm if it takes all night.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> When he gets home I'm going to lay down the law.
> 
> I'm having an orgasm if it takes all night.


And he will think he'd died and gone to heaven.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> And he will think he'd died and gone to heaven.


As will LB haha


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Try making your jokes more obvious. And, the *rolls eyes* smilie isn't obvious. Try using other icons to show that you're joking cause, apparently, no one else here(except one person) saw anything but resentment and anger. That makes it difficult to help you, because you have said yourself that personality changes on a whim. So, to us, you are playing the victim and then denying it later, even if you genuinely believe you're not.
> 
> I mean, posters here have called you out saying you don't even want help, that you do nothing but lie in your posts, and you maintain that you're not lying. These confusing posts come across as incredibly hostile to 99% of the posters here, and then you say you were joking...what the hell are _we_ supposed to do, exactly? I'm worried about how communication goes between you and your fiance, honestly.


good observations, Mrs. C2W 

Which personality takes the advice and which personality answered back?

Are we facing a real person here, or maybe a computer program created by Bill Gates for one of his future operating system, called "MiniAvian", based on semi-artificial intelligence? 

OH, and I was only joking, so nobody should be offended. right? :rofl:


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He was the first person I ever consented to sex with so...I can't blame it on his lack of skill, that would be unfair. It could be me.


What IS you is not telling him what you like/don't like, want/don't want, etc.

While many female posters on this board seem to be good about it, a lot of females seem to have some weird inability to speak regarding sex and I so wish it would go away. Telling your partner what you like and don't like during sex is not going to land you in Alcatraz. 

Honestly, speaking as a man who has long been frustrated by women who suddenly lose their ability to speak English when the topic of sex comes up, do your man a favor and tell him every tiny little detail about what you like and don't like. Even if he takes it a little harsh at first, he'll be grateful for it in the long run because it will only make him a better lover. 

Trust me, when you feel like a good lover (not even great, just good) you feel like you are the king of castle. When you are left to wander around in the dark taking guesses as to what your partner will like while she won't even both to toss you a flashlight to MAYBE have a hope in hell of learning what works for her, you feel like a complete ass and loser.

It is NOT a good feeling.



LittleBird said:


> I'm usually on my stomach (can't do it) or in doggy (would lose balance.)
> 
> But I could do it in missionary


There is ways to do doggy style that can free up your hands. Get creative.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> What IS you is not telling him what you like/don't like, want/don't want, etc.
> 
> While many female posters on this board seem to be good about it, a lot of females seem to have some weird inability to speak regarding sex and I so wish it would go away. Telling your partner what you like and don't like during sex is not going to land you in Alcatraz.
> 
> ...


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

When i first learned to orgasm,I always thought a ton of work went into it.I guess it's because I still didn't know my body 100%.It's nearly effortless now.Especially since SO can give me one with absolutely no work on my part LOL
I think it takes practice to take the work out of getting there,at least it did for me.
The older we get the more comfortable we become with our body and our sexuality.I know there are ladies in their late teens and early twenties who say they orgasm endlessly.I always envied those b*tches! 
practicing is great fun if you have a good partner or if you're alone.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

also,I am sure people will disagree with me on this: I don't think ANY man can make you orgasm until you can make yourself orgasm and know exactly what gets you to that moment.I firmly believe you have to experiment and learn what makes your body tick THEN give someone else the opportunity to please you...with your guidance.


----------



## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Life is too damn short for good enough.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Sex shouldn't be so much ****ing work.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> ...


How is telling your fiancee what you like and don't like work? 

I'm not saying you need to give him a 2-year University level full-credit course on your physical anatomy, complete with published textbook full of well researched material, supported by world reknowned medical experts. I'm saying that if something feels good, say "That feels good baby, just what you're doing there." Vice versa if it hurts, tell him "That felt a little weird, I don't think that works for me."

Both of those sentences require all of three seconds. If we are talking about oral sex here, they can be said while you're lying on your back. What friggin work is there in that? 



ScarletBegonias said:


> also,I am sure people will disagree with me on this: I don't think ANY man can make you orgasm until you can make yourself orgasm and know exactly what gets you to that moment.I firmly believe you have to experiment and learn what makes your body tick THEN give someone else the opportunity to please you...with your guidance.


ScarletBegonias FTW!

Men just want to make their partners happy in bed. I think Created2Write noted that is a selfless act because we want to give you plesure and we aren't, we feel like a failure. We don't just want to get our rocks off, anyone can do that for us. We want to make you happy too. 

So just how in the world are we supposed to do this when we aren't given any feedback, or that feedback is just words used to get us to go away.

To give you an example that put me in a pissed off mood, I'll recant what happened to me last night.

Me and my fiancee were having a sex talk on Sunday evening, and we got on the topic of what puts her in the mood. Like other women, she said she can't just get in the mood like that and said it would help if I suggested sex earlier in the evening, it would give her some time to think about it (about having sex) and the mental image would help get her in the mood. I thought that made sense, because I've actually read something similar on here.

So the next night, I was in the mood but I knew we had to go out for a few hours to her mom's house, so I decided I'd give her advice a try. We were down in the bedroom and she was getting dressed and she made some comment about her boobs. So I replied by saying "well, perhaps you'd like to share those with me later." She knew I meant sex.

Her immediate reply was "I dunno, ask me later," so I replied, "Ok, I will, I'm just doing what you suggested I do."

She said "What did I ask you to do," and I said "Mention sex earlier in the evening, because it might get you in the mood for later."

She then said "I said that? I don't remember that. I guess it might work, I don't know really."

Like, seriously. It's pretty clear she didn't put much thought into what would turn her on if she gave an answer one day that she's can't even remember saying it or know if it'd work the next day. 

Naturally, there was nothing to happen when we got home. Straight into the PJ's and off to watch TV, even though she knew I was in the mood.

I really hope LD spouses start to put some effort into what their guidance is for their HD spouses. We do want to have more sex, but we also want to have more sex that you are involved in and enjoying. To do that, we need to get your input, and by input I mean well thought out, honest, helpful input, not just some random thought that comes to your mind. 

I thought the goal of a good marriage was trying hard to fulfill your partners ever want and need, assuming it's not something harmful or ridiculous. If so, there is no justification to not giving your partner some basic pointers on how to best get you in the mood and work together on a happy, healthy, productive sex life.

The whole 'it's so much work' excuse is a collosal pile of dog ****.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> How is telling your fiancee what you like and don't like work?
> 
> I'm not saying you need to give him a 2-year University level full-credit course on your physical anatomy, complete with published textbook full of well researched material, supported by world reknowned medical experts. I'm saying that if something feels good, say "That feels good baby, just what you're doing there." Vice versa if it hurts, tell him "That felt a little weird, I don't think that works for me."
> 
> ...


I can't speak for all ladies but at the beginning when I was young,immature, rigid,demanding,spoiled and all other things that hopefully fade with age and life experience..Sex was WORK.It was a chore.I couldn't get off and while I liked pleasing my partner,it got old fast.

I'm 30 now and totally feel women need to speak up.they need to learn their bodies then SPEAK UP.There's no reason to let your partner stumble around doing things that you aren't feeling.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Haven't check in on this thread in a way. Page 76  So I'll just comment on the below and bow out again.



ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm 30 now and totally feel women need to speak up.they need to learn their bodies then SPEAK UP.There's no reason to let your partner stumble around doing things that you aren't feeling.


Please stay that way. My wife was like that, vocal, at 30 when we got married. 

We got into a bit of a disagreement over the weekend when I asked her to be a bit more vocal and expressive. She did not feel the need, I should just know. Sure after 20 years I know her very well, and generally do very well, but I suspect (heck I know) some things have changed over time. I wish she would fill me better than she does nowadays and/or at least sooner.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> Haven't check in on this thread in a way. Page 76  So I'll just comment on the below and bow out again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Being vocal is a must and I know first hand how much it sucks to have a quiet partner.I'll be vocal as long as I'm able


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I can't speak for all ladies but at the beginning when I was young,immature, rigid,demanding,spoiled and all other things that hopefully fade with age and life experience..Sex was WORK.It was a chore.I couldn't get off and while I liked pleasing my partner,it got old fast.
> 
> I'm 30 now and totally feel women need to speak up.they need to learn their bodies then SPEAK UP.There's no reason to let your partner stumble around doing things that you aren't feeling.


Ok, for us dimwitted men, I'm honestly asking, nee, begging, please explain how it is work to just tell us what we need to know. How is just offering up some advice work? Even if you don't know what you do like, why is it work to say what you don't like when it happens?


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Ok, for us dimwitted men, I'm honestly asking, nee, begging, please explain how it is work to just tell us what we need to know. How is just offering up some advice work? Even if you don't know what you do like, why is it work to say what you don't like when it happens?


Being vocal is NOT work.not even a little bit.Prior to learning your body,attempting to have satisfying sex and attempting to have orgasms is work.It's frustrating and knocks your self esteem down if you can't seem to get there.

Telling your partner these things is more important than most women,including me,ever realize when we're younger...and some til we're a lot older.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Being vocal is a must and I know first hand how much it sucks to have a quiet partner.I'll be vocal as long as I'm able


I've always wondered about this. 

Men say they want us to make noise. They complain about "the corpse" or "the ceiling inspector." 

But what do we do when...it's just not happening?

Make noise anyway?

Sex seems like a complicated, complicated play to me sometimes.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I've always wondered about this.
> 
> Men say they want us to make noise. They complain about "the corpse" or "the ceiling inspector."
> 
> ...


no,no way do you make noise and pretend it's happening when it isn't.That's when you gently stop him,I would typically do a "I love you so much baby" hair stroke or shoulder rub..THEN tell him what you'd like better...that's when knowing your body comes in handy.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> no,no way do you make noise and pretend it's happening when it isn't.That's when you gently stop him,I would typically do a "I love you so much baby" hair stroke or shoulder rub..THEN tell him what you'd like better...that's when knowing your body comes in handy.


Will you adopt me and teach me the wonders of the world? 

I was just wondering because normally when SO is about done, he looks at me like he wants me to "finish" and I'm instantly horrified, thinking "Okay body GO!"

....It doesn't work.

I know men want us to enjoy it as much as they do but sometimes the pressure of knowing our orgasm is their "prize" if you will can make it difficult.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Will you adopt me and teach me the wonders of the world?
> 
> I was just wondering because normally when SO is about done, he looks at me like he wants me to "finish" and I'm instantly horrified, thinking "Okay body GO!"
> 
> ...


Men DO put pressure on us to orgasm but it's not because of their ego (correction...USUALLY it's not because of their ego).They just want to give you pleasure and make you feel amazing You'll only frustrate yourself and resent your partner if you think he considers your orgasm as his prize.I don't like telling people what to do but you can't go around thinking that way.If you've got a good man,his sole purpose in bed is going to be to please you,make you smile,and to make you feel incredible...he's not doing it for himself.
I think if the communication is really open,kind,and from the heart you can get any man to understand you feel pressured to orgasm and it's ruining the possibility of said orgasm ever happening.

I had to laugh at "Ok body GO" because I've been there waaaay too many times with my own body.You feel like a failure if you can't orgasm.Which makes the possibility of it happening even less.
I say go all out.If you have to,masturbate in front of him and SHOW him what you like.He doesn't get to dictate what should feel good to you so you have to be fair and teach him.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Will you adopt me and teach me the wonders of the world?
> 
> I was just wondering because normally when SO is about done, he looks at me like he wants me to "finish" and I'm instantly horrified, thinking "Okay body GO!"
> 
> ...


Orgasm on que is pretty impossible (unless your a male porn star  ) and pressure is the quickest way to quash a orgasm.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> Orgasm on que is pretty impossible (unless your a male porn star  ) and pressure is the quickest way to quash a orgasm.


When we don't make noise, writhe and or/orgasm they get very upset and take it as a personal insult. NOBODY likes having sex with the still, silent person. I can't blame them for that.

The pressure is kind of innate, even though I know for the most part they want us to orgasm for unselfish reasons.

When we like it, they feel good about themselves. That's kind of always looming.

So by that logic, when we don't show we enjoy it, they don't feel good about themselves.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> When we don't make noise, writhe and or/orgasm. they get very upset and take it as a personal insult.
> 
> The pressure is kind of innate, even though I know for the most part they want us to orgasm for unselfish reason.
> 
> When we like it, they feel good about themselves. That's kind of always looming.


That's THEIR problem hon,NOT YOURS. if you're with a man who gauges his self worth,confidence and masculinity on your orgasm then he has some serious introspective thinking to do and a lot of growing up to do emotionally.
Men should want you to orgasm bc they want you to feel good.Not so they can strut around feeling secure in their skills.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> When we don't make noise, writhe and or/orgasm. they get very upset and take it as a personal insult.
> 
> The pressure is kind of innate, even though I know for the most part they want us to orgasm for unselfish reason.
> 
> When we like it, they feel good about themselves. That's kind of always looming.


I think I've been very lucky because I haven't ever been with a guy who got upset if I wasn't making much noise, but there hasn't been many times that's happened because I have always been very vocal about what I like/dislike lol


----------



## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

There is pressure on both sides to perform and please your partner, but I've always thought there was never a problem asking 'What do you like?'

Everyone has different tastes, and I'm not psychic.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Men should want you to orgasm bc they want you to feel good.Not so they can strut around feeling secure in their skills.


I think for most men, it's probably a bit of both, especially given the fact that for many couples, the female orgasm is a little more elusive than the male.


----------



## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

Oh, as for the noise thing. Its not always needed, but yes it helps a man feel vindicated. 

And hell, if your both pent up, its been waaaaay too long, you've had a few drinks, and he's pushing the right buttons tonight. Just let loose, I think you'd like it too.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I think for most men, it's probably a bit of both, especially given the fact that for many couples, the female orgasm is a little more elusive than the male.


Thinking about it,I agree with that.I get a huge high when I make SO orgasm.I guess my issue would be with the men who solely want a woman to orgasm to save his ego.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I think for most men, it's probably a bit of both, especially given the fact that for many couples, the female orgasm is a little more elusive than the male.


I know he does it from a genuine want to please me but when I don't orgasm and he looks like he's swallowed a sour lemon, I can't help but feel as if I hurt his ego.

And lmfao but in all the pornos, the woman is SCREAMING like a wild banshee to show that she enjoys it. It's clear that the "stud" in all men wants them to be able to reduce a woman to mush.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I feel stupid asking but I'm too lazy to read the whole thread.LB have you ever had an orgasm?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I feel stupid asking but I'm too lazy to read the whole thread.LB have you ever had an orgasm?


By myself, yes. 

Not with him, no ma'm but I only recently even decided I wanted one. Before, I was having daily sex just to please but the posters here have all but beat it into my head that is dishonest and not sustainable.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Ok, for us dimwitted men, I'm honestly asking, nee, begging, please explain how it is work to just tell us what we need to know. How is just offering up some advice work? Even if you don't know what you do like, why is it work to say what you don't like when it happens?


For me, it isn't work. It's barely a ten word sentence. The only time sex has ever involved work for me was the first...I dunno, five times I orgasmed through oral sex. Other than that, no work involved.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> By myself, yes.
> 
> Not with him, no ma'm but I only recently even decided I wanted one. Before, I was having daily sex just to please but the posters here have all but beat it into my head that is dishonest and not sustainable.


LOL yes I can imagine they definitely did that

Your best bet is to start small.While he's inside,rub your clit with your fingers.Use your thighs to adjust his speed and depth and TELL HIM if you want it harder,faster,etc.
That's basically using his penis as a sex toy but hey if it works,you'll both be deliriously happy. I've found during self conscious moments,closing my eyes helps tremendously so you can just feel it rather than seeing his impatient face LOL

Once you master that... move to letting him attempt it on his own via oral Don't forget to communicate


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

You don't have to be orgasming to make noise. If it feels good...moan. It's hot. I wish my husband would make more noise.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

True C2W! 

when i'm building up to an orgasm,I don't even think I breathe let alone make noise.the noise comes way before and then right as it's happening.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> LOL yes I can imagine they definitely did that
> 
> Your best bet is to start small.While he's inside,rub your clit with your fingers.Use your thighs to adjust his speed and depth and TELL HIM if you want it harder,faster,etc.
> That's basically using his penis as a sex toy but hey if it works,you'll both be deliriously happy. I've found during self conscious moments,closing my eyes helps tremendously so you can just feel it rather than seeing his impatient face LOL
> ...


:allhail:


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> You don't have to be orgasming to make noise. If it feels good...moan. It's hot. I wish my husband would make more noise.


Totally agree, men making noises is hot


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> Totally agree, men making noises is hot


Oh, I'm plenty noisy.

I'm sensitive in other parts of my body, even if I'm not feeling what all the fuss is about "Down there"


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> When we don't make noise, writhe and or/orgasm they get very upset and take it as a personal insult. NOBODY likes having sex with the still, silent person. I can't blame them for that.


Who is 'they'? I thought you've only had willing sex with one guy? Don't judge all of us by what your 20ish-year-old uneducated boyfriend does.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Who is 'they'? I thought you've only had willing sex with one guy? Don't judge all of us by what your 20ish-year-old uneducated boyfriend does.


When I say "They" I've seen a lot and I mean A LOT of men on here complaining that she just lays there silent.


----------



## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> When I say "They" I've seen a lot and I mean A LOT of men on here complaining that she just* lays there silent*.


Well, it is an event that we appreciate at least participation. 

Although I know you were being sarcastic.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> When I say "They" I've seen a lot and I mean A LOT of men on here complaining that she just lays there silent.


'a lot' of men? in here? In this thread?

eh, where are they? I myself can't recall ever complaining about any woman being silent during lovemaking.

Did you, Mr. Kingsfan? :scratchhead:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> 'a lot' of men? in here? In this thread?
> 
> eh, where are they? I myself can't recall ever complaining about any woman being silent during lovemaking.
> 
> Did you, Mr. Kingsfan? :scratchhead:


If you don't believe me, spend 20 minutes reading some other threads.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Men wanting their wives to participate or be enthusiastic doesn't mean they necessarily want a "screaming banshee", something you've said about a dozen times in this thread. There are many times when my husband and I have quiet, intimate love making without much noise at all. And I'm definitely not just laying there.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> 'a lot' of men? in here? In this thread?
> 
> eh, where are they? I myself can't recall ever complaining about any woman being silent during lovemaking.
> 
> Did you, Mr. Kingsfan? :scratchhead:


Not in this thread, but I likely did someplace else. My ex did the ole dead fish pose a lot. Emotionally, it was about equal to dry humping sandpaper.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Not in this thread, but I likely did someplace else. My ex did the ole dead fish pose a lot. Emotionally, it was about equal to dry humping sandpaper.




Ouch. Sounds painful.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> also,I am sure people will disagree with me on this: I don't think ANY man can make you orgasm until you can make yourself orgasm and know exactly what gets you to that moment.I firmly believe you have to experiment and learn what makes your body tick THEN give someone else the opportunity to please you...with your guidance.


Well, for the most part, I'd say you are correct. I mean, my husband was able to make me orgasm without my knowing anything about how to do it. In the last few years, I did start to learn more about myself. But over all, yes, I would agree that for the most part, that's how it works.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> If you don't believe me,


No I don't, I think you were being sarcastic and over the top. 




> ..spend 20 minutes reading some other threads.


No, it was YOU who came up with the allegations that "I've seen a lot and I mean A LOT of men on here complaining that she just lays there silent..". So instead of telling us to spend 20 minutes reading other threads, why don't you post the links and quotes here for all of us to see?

Or, rather than spending your precious time, just admit that you were being sarcastic and over the top. EaSier. Simpler.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Men wanting their wives to participate or be enthusiastic doesn't mean they necessarily want a "screaming banshee", something you've said about a dozen times in this thread. There are many times when my husband and I have quiet, intimate love making without much noise at all. And I'm definitely not just laying there.


Nobody said it was a bad thing for them to want us to move/make noise.

I was just saying it matters, nobody wants a dead fish.

I just saying when you aren't actually enjoying it, that puts you in an awkward position because you have no idea what to do with yourself.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> No I don't, I think you were being sarcastic and over the top.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

No, I wasn't.

Nobody wants a dead fish.

I think that has been clearly established.

All I said is that men typically like it when we indicate we are enjoying it, i.e. making noise, whatever.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Nobody said it was a bad thing for them to want us to move/make noise.
> 
> I was just saying it matters, nobody wants a dead fish.
> 
> I just saying when you aren't actually enjoying it, that puts you in an awkward position because you have no idea what to do with yourself.


And you're not enjoying it, you've said, because it happens every day and you don't want it every day. 

So, are you actually enforcing boundaries? Did you have the talk you said you needed?


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> No, I wasn't.
> 
> ...


I think you're zig-zagging. You said : 



> "I've seen a lot and I mean A LOT of men on here complaining that she just lays there silent.."


Then you quickly change your stance again saying "nobody wants a dead fish"

While there was nothing about dead fishes in that particular quote of yours.

At one point you want to paint us men as complainers. Then you zigzagged back, as if you understand that "nobody wants a dead fish".

But, hey, if you like zig-zagging and dodging, it's your choice.

:sleeping:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I think you're zig-zagging. You said :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but laying there silent equates to being a dead fish.

This is stupid to argue, sorry.

Think what you want.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> And you're not enjoying it, you've said, because it happens every day and you don't want it every day.
> 
> So, are you actually enforcing boundaries? Did you have the talk you said you needed?


 It's not really good timing, there's a lot going on. 

But I'm kind of enforcing my boundaries.

Baby steps. He's noticing that I'm not just gonna be sweet as sugar all the time even when he doesn't act the way he knows he should. 

It's bad timing all around though to be chaining things up.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Ouch. Sounds painful.


It is. And emotionally, when your partner wants nothing to do with you, that's how it feels. 

It's also how it feels when you want nothing more than to please your partner and they can't be bothered to even give you a clue as to what they want from you sexually. Whether it's 'to much work' or whatever BS line you get feed.

To me, if a women tells me it's to much work, or she doesn't know what she wants sexually and she's been having sex for a few years or more, it's likely less to do with being uneducated in what it is she wants and more likely she's just not into sexually, at least not on any grand scale. 



LittleBird said:


> I'm sorry but laying there silent equates to being a dead fish.
> 
> This is stupid to argue, sorry.
> 
> Think what you want.


If you can't see that there is a middle ground between a "dead fish" and a "screaming banchee" then I feel sorry for you.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's not really good timing, there's a lot going on.


It's VERY easy to put things off and that's when relationships fail. There is absolutely NOTHING more important than our marriage.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> It's not really good timing, there's a lot going on.
> 
> But I'm kind of enforcing my boundaries.
> 
> ...


Why is it bad timing? Is there ever a _good_ time to change a relationship in a drastic way, even if it's for the better?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

And why is this bad timing so sudden? Yesterday you were all on board to have a talk and to get an orgasm. What happened over night that suddenly made changing things up so inconvenient?


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I suggest a lower class group of friends.


Not lower class. Just less enamored of themselves because they're rich.

I might say that's a higher class group.

[EDIT: Covered already by multiple posts, as I saw when I got to the end of the thread. That'll teach me to get behind on my reading.]


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> And why is this bad timing so sudden? Yesterday you were all on board to have a talk and to get an orgasm. What happened over night that suddenly made changing things up so inconvenient?


No, no I'm still on board to get an orgasm. I feel a lot of pressure to have one, he really wants me to have one but it's still better than not trying. 

I'm just loathe to have any more serious conversations at the moment...it's complicated. 

I can handle spicing up our sex life. But the boundary issue goes way beyond sex.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes it does. And the longer you put it off, the harder it will be for both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Yes it does. And the longer you put it off, the harder it will be for both of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yo, Mrs. C2W, check out this comment I took from this URL

"Help....I hate sex!!!!": Sexual Health Community - Support Group



> 1 year ago
> acarroll74 responded:
> Hello, I am 10 years older than you, but *when I was in my late twenties, I started really hating to have sex. Not all the time, but most of the time. Now I could go the rest of my life without doing it. If I feel an urge, I can just take care of it myself*. I don't need some guy (my husband) pounding away at me, messing up my hair, trying to talk sexy (which just annoys me), or making the same old approach..one boob, then the other, then we're off. I especially hate it after I have taken a bath, dried my hair...I feel so good and he wants to ruin it by having sex! I just want to go to bed and sleep.
> 
> ...


Scary, isn't it?

This woman flat-out hates sex with her husband, even though she admitted that he's "good at it".

I wonder what she would be saying (or doing) if he is incompetent at sex?

Worse, she even hoped that her husband develop Erection Disorder, and that it would make her happy!!

I feel sorry for her husband!!

If you, Mrs. C2W, have a son, will you allow your son to marry this kind of woman?

You too LB. If you have a son, will you allow your son to marry this kind of woman?

This kind of angry response really gets me thinking that LD and HD really should never ever, ever, get married...


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Yo, Mrs. C2W, check out this comment I took from this URL
> 
> "Help....I hate sex!!!!": Sexual Health Community - Support Group
> 
> ...


Did you really need that angry response to think HD and LD pairings aren't wise?

Frankly that women in that case is the cause of her own misery. It's fine to hate sex. It's fine to never want sex. But it's not fine to expect someone to stay married to you and be 100% faithful to you while you go out of your way to sabatoge the sex within the marriage, which is what she is doing. 

You can control your own sex life, but you shouldn't be allowed to control your spouses sex life as well.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Did you really need that angry response to think HD and LD pairings aren't wise?


Everybody deserves happiness, including LDs. If an LD fall in love so deeply with an HD, there's got to be a way to compromise if there is real love and respect between them.

But certainly NOT this particular LD woman! :scratchhead:


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But certainly NOT this particular LD woman! :scratchhead:


She may be LD she's also a b*tch, she pretty much wants him to be castrated so she can have the marriage the way SHE want's it to be, doesn't sound like love to me


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I know men want us to enjoy it as much as they do but sometimes the pressure of knowing our orgasm is their "prize" if you will can make it difficult.


I want to please my wife more than anything. I honestly don't think my wife knows what her body needs to O. For me it's not a prize at all if she has an orgasm. It's just validation that she enjoyed sex. If she doesn't orgasm, the only way I know she is enjoying herself or if it feels good to her is to be vocal. She is dead silent! So maybe like you, she may feel pressure to O. She has never said that to me in 20 years so I wouldn't know.

I think my wife was happy whe sex was 2-3 times a month and I just ACCEPTED it because of her LD. It wasn't until I threatened to leave that we bumped it up to 2-3 times a week.

That should be good enough. Right? 

Well, not if I feel like I am raping her because I last a lot longer and want more sex than she would like. I can easily last for 30-40 minutes, but she just wants it over with. 

Should I just accept that for what it is? 

I just want her to enjoy herself with sex and not be bone dry. 

Is that asking too much?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Yo, Mrs. C2W, check out this comment I took from this URL
> 
> "Help....I hate sex!!!!": Sexual Health Community - Support Group
> 
> ...


That woman makes me feel sick. I mean, as a woman, I can definitely appreciate the lack of "wanting" to have sex at any particular given moment. I really can. As I said before, BC messed up my hormones and it takes effort for me to even think about sex, let alone have a physical desire for it. I'm busy throughout the day cleaning, cooking, making sure my husband has clean underwear, stretching before we go to the gym, going to the gym, going grocery shopping, doing the dishes after every meal, monitoring the finances so we can pay our rent and actually eat healthy, and now I'm working on getting certified to be a personal trainer and nutritionist; my schedule isn't nearly what a mothers is, but for someone my age, I'm busy. I get tired too. 

But I'd be a damn fool to think that my husband is any less tired than I when he comes home after a grueling day at work. He's in construction and works with a bunch of lazy idiots, so he's not only physically tired but mentally he's worn out. And he _still_ makes time to talk to me at dinner, to watch a movie or do something where he can cuddle with me and caress me, he goes to the gym with me and, last night, while I was PMSing about Valentine's Day this year, he surprised me by cleaning the entire kitchen. Even things that I don't freaking use in the kitchen, he cleaned. And I hadn't been "nice" to him much yesterday. Although we did have sex for the first time in weeks, and God Almighty, did it feel good. 

I guess my point is this: we could all sit back and look at our individual existence and think, 'After all I do throughout the day, I deserve to decide where and how I spend my free time.' And on an individual level, we would be right. But marriages can't last with two individuals living out two separate lives under the same roof. Marriages require specific things to keep going. And one of those things is dedication. That woman wants to have her cake and eat it too, and it just doesn't work that way. You can't be in a sexually exclusive relationship and expect your partner to be faithful while allowing yourself to hate the sexual aspects of the relationship. 

Some people in this world shouldn't be married. They're too selfish and immature to understand what real love looks like. I was talking to my husband the other day about what being "in love" looks like as opposed to just "loving" someone. To me being "in love" involves three things: romance, passion and sexual desire. By romance I don't necessarily mean flowers and chocolates, but rather specific feelings within the two people which cause the flowers and chocolates to mean more than materialistic satisfaction or bragging rights. The flutters in your stomach when he/she looks at you with that certain look you can't describe, and yet you know exactly what it means; the awe inspiring chill that shoots down your back when he/she flashes that one particular smile which says a thousand things at once, and yet no words are spoken; the tingling that crawls over your skin when he/she touches you unexpectedly; the instant comfort you feel when they return, even after only being gone a couple of hours. Those things are what I consider to be feelings of romance and they are what make actions or gifts of romance so romantic. Without the feelings the actions would be empty. 

By passion I don't mean lust, but rather those practically insatiable desires for intimacy. Those intense, fiery jolts of emotion when he/she whispers, "I love you" before getting out of bed in the morning; or the swelling of the heart when he/she does something unexpected, something you really were dreading to do yourself and they seemed to notice without you saying so(like my husband cleaning the kitchen last night, even though I was being snappy and copping an attitude); the urges that lead you to cuddle close to each other; the feelings that remind you when and how to meet their needs, the excitement you feel at what you know his/her reaction will be, and the utter fulfillment at seeing their reaction once you've met that need. And passion absolutely leads to sexual desire, which is what I'm calling the purely physical urges. Passion, in my opinion, _is_ the intimacy and the feelings of intimacy in a relationship. They can have intimacy without sex, like those who choose to wait for marriage to have sex. 

In my opinion people who are really, truly in love have all three of these components in their relationship, and each component effects the other. Romance effects passion, passion effects sex, sex effects romance, etc. While I do believe that people who aren't actively having sex _can_ be in love(like those who are abstaining until marriage...they likely still have the physical urges), I don't think that romance and passion can last long term in marriage without the physical desire for sex in both people. One persons sexual drive can not maintain a healthy, mutually satisfying sex life for long. For me, I've noticed that the more often I orgasm, the more often I think about and want sex. So, knowingly allowing myself to forget about sex and not pursue orgasms on a consistent basis is akin to knowingly allowing the sexual aspect of our relationship to die. Plain and simple. I told my husband last night that I want him to push for it, and not just sit back and wait for me to want it.

LB, you can choose to wait and wait and wait for a time that's more convenient to shake things up and make these changes, but I'm telling you now, that the longer you wait and put it off, the harder it will be to actually make those changes. I know in your twenty year-old mind(I don't say that to be patronizing...I'm sorry if it sounds that way. I hated it when people said that to me when I was twenty, but I soon came to see that they were right...) you probably really do intend on sticking to this and enforcing more boundaries other than just sexual ones. But this journey requires so much more than mere intentions. How can you expect your fiance to really grow up and learn how to please you, in and out of the bedroom, if you don't also grow up and learn to face confrontation head on? I promise you, even if you two do become sexually compatible, you will face issues in marriage and you can't just wait for the most convenient moment to do something about them. 

I'm no psychologist, but the difference between your resolve and your posts two days ago is staggeringly different than your posts yesterday. Maybe you're beginning to see just how difficult these changes are going to be and it worries you. Maybe you're beginning to see that you and your fiance may not be a very good match after all, and that frightens you, and you'd rather go back to the way things were than face what could be the truth. Maybe you really haven't really wanted anything to change except for the frequency of sex, and now that that is being taken care of, you're feeling fine. Maybe it's none of those things. 

You can create as many excuses and reasons and justifications as you like to push away the process of creating boundaries, enforcing them, and then having a better relationship because of it. And hey, you're the one in the relationship. Make it as toxic as you like. But if you really don't intend on enforcing any boundaries, at least stop pretending like you do. That way the rest of us can spend our time giving our advice to those who actually will listen and act on what's being said.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Did you really need that angry response to think HD and LD pairings aren't wise?
> 
> Frankly that women in that case is the cause of her own misery. It's fine to hate sex. It's fine to never want sex. But it's not fine to expect someone to stay married to you and be 100% faithful to you while you go out of your way to sabatoge the sex within the marriage, which is what she is doing.
> 
> You can control your own sex life, but you shouldn't be allowed to control your spouses sex life as well.


Precisely.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Everybody deserves happiness, including LDs. If an LD fall in love so deeply with an HD, there's got to be a way to compromise if there is real love and respect between them.
> 
> But certainly NOT this particular LD woman! :scratchhead:


I think there are some cases where a LD and a HD can compromise. But honestly, I think they are the exception and not the rule.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Already Gone said:


> I want to please my wife more than anything. I honestly don't think my wife knows what her body needs to O. For me it's not a prize at all if she has an orgasm. It's just validation that she enjoyed sex. If she doesn't orgasm, the only way I know she is enjoying herself or if it feels good to her is to be vocal. She is dead silent! So maybe like you, she may feel pressure to O. She has never said that to me in 20 years so I wouldn't know.
> 
> I think my wife was happy whe sex was 2-3 times a month and I just ACCEPTED it because of her LD. It wasn't until I threatened to leave that we bumped it up to 2-3 times a week.
> 
> ...


No, it's not asking too much. You shouldn't have to feel like you're raping the woman you love just because you love sex with her and she wants it to be over with. I don't have any advice, but I just wanted you to know that I think your feelings are totally valid.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> She may be LD she's also a b*tch, she pretty much wants him to be castrated so she can have the marriage the way SHE want's it to be, doesn't sound like love to me


Can I just say for the record that 

A) I love my fiancé's penis and if anything ever happened to it, I'd be more upset than he is. I'm always playing with it on the sofa. Prude? I think not. 

B) Well I have something similar to those women, I actually have a **** ton of good reasons and I am HERE trying BEFORE the problem starts. My head is dark/twisty place but I'm working on it. Maybe not fast, maybe not always without detours. But I'm working on it. 

C) I love my fiancé more than life itself. 

D) I'm not a castrating *****. 

Hopefully that counts for something.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> That woman makes me feel sick. I mean, as a woman, I can definitely appreciate the lack of "wanting" to have sex at any particular given moment. I really can. As I said before, BC messed up my hormones and it takes effort for me to even think about sex, let alone have a physical desire for it. I'm busy throughout the day cleaning, cooking, making sure my husband has clean underwear, stretching before we go to the gym, going to the gym, going grocery shopping, doing the dishes after every meal, monitoring the finances so we can pay our rent and actually eat healthy, and now I'm working on getting certified to be a personal trainer and nutritionist; my schedule isn't nearly what a mothers is, but for someone my age, I'm busy. I get tired too.
> 
> But I'd be a damn fool to think that my husband is any less tired than I when he comes home after a grueling day at work. He's in construction and works with a bunch of lazy idiots, so he's not only physically tired but mentally he's worn out. And he _still_ makes time to talk to me at dinner, to watch a movie or do something where he can cuddle with me and caress me, he goes to the gym with me and, last night, while I was PMSing about Valentine's Day this year, he surprised me by cleaning the entire kitchen. Even things that I don't freaking use in the kitchen, he cleaned. And I hadn't been "nice" to him much yesterday. Although we did have sex for the first time in weeks, and God Almighty, did it feel good.
> 
> ...


This is such a wonderful post, thank you C2W. You really have a great grasp on things from both the male and female sides.

Have yconsidered writing a book on sex in relationships? You have some very good advice to give. You should consider it.

Also, stop being a ***** to that man of yours


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Yo, Mrs. C2W, check out this comment I took from this URL
> 
> "Help....I hate sex!!!!": Sexual Health Community - Support Group
> 
> ...


No disrespect but I have a little bit of an issue with where you got these.

These women went to a place where THEY could talk about their issues, the pressure they felt to have sex, how they loved their husbands but were tired of having to perform for them.

They went to a place for comfort and to open up, just like HD people come here to complain about their wives or husbands. 

I just think it's wrong to take them out of context, slap them down here and start a bash fest. 

None of you could ever understand what it feels like to lie there hoping you won't feel a hand snaking down your pants. 

You don't have to agree with it but it doesn't make them bad people. AND I believe in many cases, as long as they are willing to compromise, it doesn't make them bad spouses either.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> I want to please my wife more than anything. I honestly don't think my wife knows what her body needs to O. For me it's not a prize at all if she has an orgasm. It's just validation that she enjoyed sex. If she doesn't orgasm, the only way I know she is enjoying herself or if it feels good to her is to be vocal. She is dead silent! So maybe like you, she may feel pressure to O. She has never said that to me in 20 years so I wouldn't know.
> 
> I think my wife was happy whe sex was 2-3 times a month and I just ACCEPTED it because of her LD. It wasn't until I threatened to leave that we bumped it up to 2-3 times a week.
> 
> ...


Um.....okay....here's the thing. No, you aren't wrong to want what you want.

But you THREATENED TO LEAVE HER.

Of *course* she is going to have sex with you more often. That is her way of trying to stop you from leaving!

It's sort of hard to enjoy it under that circumstance.

If she wanted to have sex with you 2-3 a week...she'd have been doing it already before you had to threaten to walk. 

ALSO 30-40 minutes? That's kind of a super long time. Geez.

It's good that you are trying to compromise but it sounds like she's doing more compromising than you are. 

Just my two cents.


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Can I just say for the record that
> 
> A) I love my fiancé's penis and if anything ever happened to it, I'd be more upset than he is. I'm always playing with it on the sofa. Prude? I think not.
> 
> ...


It all counts. 

A- sofa so good. 

B- I will suggest you are conflicted between how you want to behave and how you feel you need to. This is growth.

C- Honorable. If you love him that much include to love yourself too by being honest with him. 

D- Not to me, but overtime this part of the new you may feel that way to him.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> This is such a wonderful post, thank you C2W. You really have a great grasp on things from both the male and female sides.
> 
> Have yconsidered writing a book on sex in relationships? You have some very good advice to give. You should consider it.


I have considered it. I'm not a certified therapist or counselor or anything, so at times I've felt like I don't have any business writing about it...



> Also, stop being a ***** to that man of yours


I know. lol. I fell asleep on the couch all mad about something I don't even remember. He was messing around in the kitchen the last I saw, and when I woke up I went to the bathroom and came back out expecting to see the dishes done or something(cause he had said he would do the dishes for me once this week), and lo and behold the kitchen is practically spotless! The stove was clean, the counter tops were clean, the sink was clean, the microwave, the counter tops were cleared of trash and recycling. Immediately I said, "Jasooooooon, what did you do?" and he said, "I cleaned the kitchen." And I smiled, got all teary eyed and said, "You didn't have to do thaaaaat." He hugged me and I said, "I'm sorry I was mean to you today. I'm PMSing after that time of the month and was all upset about Valentine's Day, but none of that was your fault." He said, "I kind of figured. So I thought I'd relieve your stress and give you less cleaning to do."

And then we watched _Charade_ with Audrey Hepburn and Carey Grant. <3 Love my man. He makes the world, which at times is utterly stressful and frustrating, seem so unimportant. I love him to death.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> That woman makes me feel sick. I mean, as a woman, I can definitely appreciate the lack of "wanting" to have sex at any particular given moment. I really can. As I said before, BC messed up my hormones and it takes effort for me to even think about sex, let alone have a physical desire for it. I'm busy throughout the day cleaning, cooking, making sure my husband has clean underwear, stretching before we go to the gym, going to the gym, going grocery shopping, doing the dishes after every meal, monitoring the finances so we can pay our rent and actually eat healthy, and now I'm working on getting certified to be a personal trainer and nutritionist; my schedule isn't nearly what a mothers is, but for someone my age, I'm busy. I get tired too.
> 
> But I'd be a damn fool to think that my husband is any less tired than I when he comes home after a grueling day at work. He's in construction and works with a bunch of lazy idiots, so he's not only physically tired but mentally he's worn out. And he _still_ makes time to talk to me at dinner, to watch a movie or do something where he can cuddle with me and caress me, he goes to the gym with me and, last night, while I was PMSing about Valentine's Day this year, he surprised me by cleaning the entire kitchen. Even things that I don't freaking use in the kitchen, he cleaned. And I hadn't been "nice" to him much yesterday. Although we did have sex for the first time in weeks, and God Almighty, did it feel good.
> 
> ...


I've actually done....several of the things you've advised.:bunny::bunny::bunny:

Oh don't you turn Team Anti-LB too Created. You're my big sister.


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I've actually done....several of the things you've advised.:bunny::bunny::bunny:
> 
> Oh don't you turn Team Anti-LB too Created. You're my big sister.


Big sisters call 'em as they seem. They cut no slack so little sister doesn't have to deal with the sh*t they have dealt with. The voice of experience.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> No disrespect but I have a little bit of an issue with where you got these.
> 
> These women went to a place where THEY could talk about their issues, the pressure they felt to have sex, how they loved their husbands but were tired of having to perform for them.
> 
> ...


It's not out of context. The only reason a woman should feel that sort of aversion to any kind of sexual contact is if she's being abused, and at least at one woman quoted, never mentioned a thing about abuse. 

Now, there are times when men have unrealistic expectations regarding sex, and it can cause resentment and anger in the woman but avoiding sex and hating sex isn't going to fix that because the issue isn't the sex, it's the husband's expectations. 



> None of you could ever understand what it feels like to lie there hoping you won't feel a hand snaking down your pants.


_Not_ true, LB. You don't know the dirty, gritty intimate details of the relationships here in this thread. Stop assuming that you do. Some of the men and women here _have_ experienced sexual issues in their relationships. Some have overcome them, some haven't. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you're the only one who could ever understand those women cause you're not.



> You don't have to agree with it but it doesn't make them bad people. AND I believe in many cases, as long as they are willing to compromise, it doesn't make them bad spouses either.


We disagree. I think in many cases they _are_ bad people. I certainly can't say which ones, I'm not a psychic. But with my experience, there are plenty of women(and some men) who simply refuse to acknowledge sex in marriage as a relational need. They refuse to. Sure, they "compromise", but that only fills them with more anger, resentment and frustration. So yes, it does make them a bad spouse. 

Now, I don't think all LD marrying HD cases are like that. I've seen a few where the LD recognized how difficult it was for the HD person and they were able to reach a mutually satisfying compromise. But again, those were the exceptions, imo.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> That woman makes me feel sick. I mean, as a woman, I can definitely appreciate the lack of "wanting" to have sex at any particular given moment. I really can. As I said before, BC messed up my hormones and it takes effort for me to even think about sex, let alone have a physical desire for it. I'm busy throughout the day cleaning, cooking, making sure my husband has clean underwear, stretching before we go to the gym, going to the gym, going grocery shopping, doing the dishes after every meal, monitoring the finances so we can pay our rent and actually eat healthy, and now I'm working on getting certified to be a personal trainer and nutritionist; my schedule isn't nearly what a mothers is, but for someone my age, I'm busy. I get tired too.


It is always a challenge to go back to school while also being a full time homemaker. Certainly very exhausting indeed.



> But I'd be a damn fool to think that my husband is any less tired than I when he comes home after a grueling day at work. He's in construction and works with a bunch of lazy idiots, so he's not only physically tired but mentally he's worn out. And he _still_ makes time to talk to me at dinner, to watch a movie or do something where he can cuddle with me and caress me, he goes to the gym with me and, last night, while I was PMSing about Valentine's Day this year, he surprised me by cleaning the entire kitchen. Even things that I don't freaking use in the kitchen, he cleaned. And I hadn't been "nice" to him much yesterday. Although we did have sex for the first time in weeks, and God Almighty, did it feel good.


You got yourself a good husband there! :smthumbup:



> I guess my point is this: we could all sit back and look at our individual existence and think, 'After all I do throughout the day, I deserve to decide where and how I spend my free time.' And on an individual level, we would be right. But marriages can't last with two individuals living out two separate lives under the same roof. Marriages require specific things to keep going. And one of those things is dedication. That woman wants to have her cake and eat it too, and it just doesn't work that way. *You can't be in a sexually exclusive relationship and expect your partner to be faithful while allowing yourself to hate the sexual aspects of the relationship. *


Agree. Very eloquently put!



> Some people in this world shouldn't be married. They're too selfish and immature to understand what real love looks like.


In this country where the majority of people gotten married in their early 20s, I got married in my 30s. I waited patiently until I think I am ready. 

Why? Because I know and admit _I was a very selfish person back then_. I wanted to do my rock music thing and have a wild life, having sex with foreign women, smoking funny weeds, etc.. But after I actually living that kind of life, then I realized the differences between reality and fantasy. Fantasy is doing whatever we feels like doing and damn the consequences. Reality is that we are all connected. What I do have consequences not only to me but also negative consequences to people who loves me (my parents, my clan, my students, etc). So I finally quitted the wild life and chose a safe desk-job salaryman life. Getting married too. 

Does this reality conform to my fantasy? No, but at least I could enjoy this reality, knowing that I am not hurting my clan's good name.

But the stupidity of youth is to be expected. If someone is to tell me "why are you wasting time with these long-haired, noisy bums, why are you smoking funny weeds.." when I was in my 20s, that would surely shot down the advice as "not respecting my independence as a man". 



> I was talking to my husband the other day about what being "in love" looks like as opposed to just "loving" someone. To me being "in love" involves three things: romance, passion and sexual desire. By romance I don't necessarily mean flowers and chocolates, but rather specific feelings within the two people which cause the flowers and chocolates to mean more than materialistic satisfaction or bragging rights. The flutters in your stomach when he/she looks at you with that certain look you can't describe, and yet you know exactly what it means; the awe inspiring chill that shoots down your back when he/she flashes that one particular smile which says a thousand things at once, and yet no words are spoken; the tingling that crawls over your skin when he/she touches you unexpectedly; the instant comfort you feel when they return, even after only being gone a couple of hours. Those things are what I consider to be feelings of romance and they are what make actions or gifts of romance so romantic. Without the feelings the actions would be empty.


 :smthumbup:



> By passion I don't mean lust, but rather those practically insatiable desires for intimacy. Those intense, fiery jolts of emotion when he/she whispers, "I love you" before getting out of bed in the morning; or the swelling of the heart when he/she does something unexpected, something you really were dreading to do yourself and they seemed to notice without you saying so(like my husband cleaning the kitchen last night, even though I was being snappy and copping an attitude); the urges that lead you to cuddle close to each other; the feelings that remind you when and how to meet their needs, the excitement you feel at what you know his/her reaction will be, and the utter fulfillment at seeing their reaction once you've met that need. And passion absolutely leads to sexual desire, which is what I'm calling the purely physical urges. Passion, in my opinion, _is_ the intimacy and the feelings of intimacy in a relationship. They can have intimacy without sex, like those who choose to wait for marriage to have sex.
> 
> In my opinion people who are really, truly in love have all three of these components in their relationship, and each component effects the other. Romance effects passion, passion effects sex, sex effects romance, etc. While I do believe that people who aren't actively having sex _can_ be in love(like those who are abstaining until marriage...they likely still have the physical urges), I don't think that romance and passion can last long term in marriage without the physical desire for sex in both people. One persons sexual drive can not maintain a healthy, mutually satisfying sex life for long. For me, I've noticed that the more often I orgasm, the more often I think about and want sex. So, knowingly allowing myself to forget about sex and not pursue orgasms on a consistent basis is akin to knowingly allowing the sexual aspect of our relationship to die. Plain and simple. I told my husband last night that I want him to push for it, and not just sit back and wait for me to want it.


 :smthumbup:

You do have wisdom beyond your age! :iagree:



> LB, you can choose to wait and wait and wait for a time that's more convenient to shake things up and make these changes, but I'm telling you now, that the longer you wait and put it off, the harder it will be to actually make those changes. I know in your twenty year-old mind(I don't say that to be patronizing...I'm sorry if it sounds that way. *I hated it when people said that to me when I was twenty, but I soon came to see that they were right*...)


That is very true.. see my response above... LB is actually more receptive to ideas than what I have been in my 20s.. she is much better than I was.



> you probably really do intend on sticking to this and enforcing more boundaries other than just sexual ones. But this journey requires so much more than mere intentions. How can you expect your fiance to really grow up and learn how to please you, in and out of the bedroom, if you don't also grow up and learn to face confrontation head on? I promise you, even if you two do become sexually compatible, you will face issues in marriage and you can't just wait for the most convenient moment to do something about them.
> 
> I'm no psychologist, but the difference between your resolve and your posts two days ago is staggeringly different than your posts yesterday. Maybe you're beginning to see just how difficult these changes are going to be and it worries you. Maybe you're beginning to see that you and your fiance may not be a very good match after all, and that frightens you, and you'd rather go back to the way things were than face what could be the truth. Maybe you really haven't really wanted anything to change except for the frequency of sex, and now that that is being taken care of, you're feeling fine. Maybe it's none of those things.


God forbid, LB, please listen to this advice. If you are not careful, one day you could end up behaving like the lady I posted about here. 



> You can create as many excuses and reasons and justifications as you like to push away the process of creating boundaries, enforcing them, and then having a better relationship because of it. And hey, you're the one in the relationship. Make it as toxic as you like. But if you really don't intend on enforcing any boundaries, at least stop pretending like you do. That way the rest of us can spend our time giving our advice to those who actually will listen and act on what's being said.


Ehm, but good advice takes time to be digested properly, ne? Especially if it requires getting out of our comfort zone and take action. It oftentimes scary.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> It's not out of context. The only reason a woman should feel that sort of aversion to any kind of sexual contact is if she's being abused, and at least at one woman quoted, never mentioned a thing about abuse.
> 
> Now, there are times when men have unrealistic expectations regarding sex, and it can cause resentment and anger in the woman but avoiding sex and hating sex isn't going to fix that because the issue isn't the sex, it's the husband's expectations.
> 
> ...


Judging from the majority of these threads being the HD complaining about the LD and the rest of the posters being quick to jump on board and spear the LD through the heart with a silver crucifix (Buffy the Vampire style, lol) I won't say ANY but I will say very few.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Can I just say for the record that
> 
> A) I love my fiancé's penis and if anything ever happened to it, I'd be more upset than he is. I'm always playing with it on the sofa. Prude? I think not.
> 
> ...


lol don't worry wasn't comparing you to her.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Scary, isn't it?



The most striking thing to me is the disconnect between this lady's perceptions and what she admits reality to be:

This is reality:



> Sometimes, I just flat give in for the sake of an argument.



This is her perception:



> I hate feeling obligated to have sex all the time.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Um.....okay....here's the thing. No, you aren't wrong to want what you want.
> 
> But you THREATENED TO LEAVE HER.


He did the right thing. Look, I know it's difficult for you to see this as a loving thing, but when a man or woman is faced with a spouse who simply can't or won't acknowledge their sexual needs, there are only three choices:
a)They can put up with being unsatisfied sexually
b)They can show how serious they are by threatening to leave, and then actually leaving if things don't change
c)or, they can just get out at the first sign of trouble. 

And frankly, the last two are the better options for both people. Sexual incompatibility can not always be solved. Sex 2-3 times a month?! That's not even once a week! Last night after making love for the first time in three weeks, I told my husband, "Forget this. We need to make sure that we do this at least twice a week." 

For certain people "some sex" isn't much better than "no sex". And for some men and women, the reality that their spouse will leave them if the issue isn't faced is a reality check they require because they refuse to try otherwise.



> Of *course* she is going to have sex with you more often. That is her way of trying to stop you from leaving!


If my husband refused to communicate with me, I'd threaten to leave to. And if he cared one iota about me, he'd probably start communicating. Trying to stop me from leaving by meeting my need for communication would be a _good_ thing. 



> It's sort of hard to enjoy it under that circumstance.


It's hard to enjoy your marriage when your spouse is so self-focused they won't meet your sexual needs, too.



> If she wanted to have sex with you 2-3 a week...she'd have been doing it already before you had to threaten to walk.


What we want as individuals and the right thing to do in marriage are not always the same. 



> ALSO 30-40 minutes? That's kind of a super long time. Geez.


No it's not. Anything beyond sixty minutes is long, imo. Anything below twenty minutes is short, imo.



> It's good that you are trying to compromise but it sounds like she's doing more compromising than you are.
> 
> Just my two cents.


She SHOULD be compromising more at this point. She hasn't compromised much at all throughout their marriage until now. He's the one who's been settling for much, much less then he needed. It's her turn to compromise.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> It's not out of context. The only reason a woman should feel that sort of aversion to any kind of sexual contact is if she's being abused, and at least at one woman quoted, never mentioned a thing about abuse.
> 
> Now, there are times when men have unrealistic expectations regarding sex, and it can cause resentment and anger in the woman but avoiding sex and hating sex isn't going to fix that because the issue isn't the sex, it's the husband's expectations.
> 
> ...


I was about to respond to Miss LB, but Mrs C2W already wrote down all I wanted to say, and with 100% better wisdom and eloquence. :smthumbup:

I am sure LB would rather hear from C2W than from me anyway.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> None of you could ever understand what it feels like to lie there hoping you won't feel a hand snaking down your pants.



Whoa, there, girl.

I was both a Boyscout and an Altar Boy. Don't tell me what I did and did not fear!


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I've actually done....several of the things you've advised.:bunny::bunny::bunny:
> 
> Oh don't you turn Team Anti-LB too Created. You're my big sister.


No worries, I'm not "anti" anyone here.  I am concerned at the differences in the things you post from day to day, is all. I'm glad to hear you've been doing other things. Would you mind sharing one or two?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I have considered it. I'm not a certified therapist or counselor or anything, so at times I've felt like I don't have any business writing about it...


Kudos to you for realizing that. 

Having one sexual relationship in your life, even with good insight, isn't sufficient to be an author on the subject, methinks. We have enough people around here who think their experience represents the entire sum of human knowledge on the subject.

But by all means keep up the good work here.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I've seen a few where the LD recognized how difficult it was for the HD person and they were able to reach a mutually satisfying compromise. But again, those were the exceptions, imo.


THat is why we should keep the hopes alive. LDs are people too, they deserve happiness, even if they intend to marry HDs. Sure there are compromises and adaptations to be made, but it's not insurmountable as long as there are real love and respect going. Just love not enough. Love _AND_ respect both must be present.

But nobody would say it's going to be easy.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Whoa, there, girl.
> 
> I was both a Boyscout and an Altar Boy. Don't tell me what I did and did not fear!


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I was also a Girl Scout, who went door to door. With pigtails and a very shorts skirt.

I know of what fear you speak.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> It's not out of context. The only reason a woman should feel that sort of aversion to any kind of sexual contact is if she's being abused, and at least at one woman quoted, never mentioned a thing about abuse.


You lost me here. What are you trying to say?

People have aversions to all kinds of sexual contact for all kinds of reasons.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> No worries, I'm not "anti" anyone here.  I am concerned at the differences in the things you post from day to day, is all. I'm glad to hear you've been doing other things. Would you mind sharing one or two?


For anyone who cares...I had sex last night.

And I LIKED IT. 

:yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

To make a long story short, he wanted to have sex. I said I wasn't really feeling it.

And he ACTUALLY LEFT ME ALONE.

No whining like a 6 year old!

"Alright, sweetie. I know you have to get up early. By the way, dinner was great tonight. I love you, night." 

I just looked at him for a couple minutes, then I told him to take his pants off.

Now, I didn't orgasm or anything. But....I don't know...it was kind of...fun....


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> For anyone who cares...I had sex last night.
> 
> And I LIKED IT.
> 
> ...


mazel tov!  Salamat!! congratulations! proficiat!! :smthumbup:

Now imagine having this kind of fun all the times with your lover.

Life would be great, right?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> It is always a challenge to go back to school while also being a full time homemaker. Certainly very exhausting indeed.


No kidding. On top of finishing my Associates which I thought was nearly done, turns out no. *sigh* It will all be worth it in the end, is what I tell myself. 



> You got yourself a good husband there! :smthumbup:


Yes I do. We've had our issues, and we've both made mistakes, but he is definitely a good person and he loves me. And I love him.



> Agree. Very eloquently put!
> 
> In this country where the majority of people gotten married in their early 20s, I got married in my 30s. I waited patiently until I think I am ready.


This, I think, was the biggest issue my husband and I had. I was twenty when we married and used to brag about it, like we were mature enough to marry. 

Not. 

We were mature for our age, yes, but so not mature enough to be married. I don't think we would have had nearly as many issues if we had waited even two years to tie the knot. Now we're mid twenties and we're finally figuring things out. 

Go figure. lol.



> Why? Because I know and admit _I was a very selfish person back then_. I wanted to do my rock music thing and have a wild life, having sex with foreign women, smoking funny weeds, etc.. But after I actually living that kind of life, then I realized the differences between reality and fantasy. Fantasy is doing whatever we feels like doing and damn the consequences. Reality is that we are all connected. What I do have consequences not only to me but also negative consequences to people who loves me (my parents, my clan, my students, etc). So I finally quitted the wild life and chose a safe desk-job salaryman life. Getting married too.
> 
> Does this reality conform to my fantasy? No, but at least I could enjoy this reality, knowing that I am not hurting my clan's good name.
> 
> ...


Well said. And you know, as far as knowledge about relationships, my husband and I knew a lot. But we rarely practiced it. Three years of the same old stuff, and I was beginning to think I'd married the wrong person. No, we just weren't practicing what we knew to be the right things to do in marriage.



> :smthumbup:
> 
> You do have wisdom beyond your age! :iagree:


Thank you. Much of it has come from personal experience, but hey. My husband and I are still here, we're still together, and we're happier than ever. So, even though getting here sucked, I'd do it again if it meant being as happy together as we are now. Even with our issues. lol.



> That is very true.. see my response above... LB is actually more receptive to ideas than what I have been in my 20s.. she is much better than I was.
> 
> God forbid, LB, please listen to this advice. If you are not careful, one day you could end up behaving like the lady I posted about here.
> 
> Ehm, but good advice takes time to be digested properly, ne? Especially if it requires getting out of our comfort zone and take action. It oftentimes scary.


That's true, I agree. However, some changes are important to instigate as soon as possible, particularly as involves two people trying to make a healthy relationship. The changes are, in themselves, going to take a lot of time to be worked out and worked through, let alone the individual processing through the advice and getting out of their comfort zone. I guess I feel a sense of urgency, knowing how long it took me to "digest"(as you put it) the things I knew to be right, and it still took me three years to put them into consistent practice.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I was about to respond to Miss LB, but Mrs C2W already wrote down all I wanted to say, and with 100% better wisdom and eloquence. :smthumbup:
> 
> I am sure LB would rather hear from C2W than from me anyway.


Two points of view on one topic are better then one point of view, imo.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Kudos to you for realizing that.
> 
> Having one sexual relationship in your life, even with good insight, isn't sufficient to be an author on the subject, methinks. We have enough people around here who think their experience represents the entire sum of human knowledge on the subject.
> 
> But by all means keep up the good work here.


Precisely. lol. I have considered making more of a memoir of my realizations about my own marriage, but then...who would want to read about that? lol. I don't even know if my husband would care to relive our relationship exploits...lol.

I think I'll just stick to taking my life and relationship lessons, and putting them in a fictional setting. That way my readers will want to strangle my characters out of frustration, and not _me_. rofl.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I think I'll just stick to taking my life and relationship lessons, and putting them in a fictional setting. That way my readers will want to strangle my characters out of frustration, and not _me_. rofl.


Your first foray into auto-erotic asphyxiation.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> You lost me here. What are you trying to say?
> 
> People have aversions to all kinds of sexual contact for all kinds of reasons.


I guess I should have said that, in marriage, the only reason a woman should hate and avoid sex as much as the quoted female poster does, is because of abuse. Perhaps I'm being naive, though. I understand avoiding certain acts, or positions for various kinds of reasons, but to hate and avoid any and all sexual contact? Beyond abuse, emotional or physical or sexual, I don't see the cause for it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> For anyone who cares...I had sex last night.
> 
> And I LIKED IT.
> 
> ...


Awesome!!!!!!! :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup: Whoo hoo! I'm so happy for this because it's mutual. He respected your boundaries, and the respect without the whining and guilt tripping attracted you to him. So great. 

And the orgasms will come. Keep working on it, and teaching him what you like, and they will come.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Awesome!!!!!!! :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup: Whoo hoo! I'm so happy for this because it's mutual. He respected your boundaries, and the respect without the whining and guilt tripping attracted you to him. So great.
> 
> And the orgasms will come. Keep working on it, and teaching him what you like, and they will come.


I think I was unwittingly resentful about the sex because I had wanted to wait until marriage and then one night, we both got drunk and ended up having sex.

I was PISSED about it, deep down, and it made every time we had sex a reminder that I'd failed.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> I think I was unwittingly resentful about the sex because I had wanted to wait until marriage and then one night, we both got drunk and ended up having sex.
> 
> I was PISSED about it, deep down, and it made every time we had sex a reminder that I'd failed.


Don't be too hard on yourself. Everybody makes mistakes. Sometimes we simply can't avoid fate. Nobody is perfect.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> ALSO 30-40 minutes? That's kind of a super long time. Geez.


I was more thinking that was a quicky...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> I was more thinking that was a quicky...


If someone was pumping on top of me for 30-40 minutes I'd have to tell them to get off...but that's my personal preference. I prefer shorter but then, we can always do it again. 

I lose my lubrication at a certain point.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If someone was pumping on top of me for 30-40 minutes I'd have to tell them to get off...but that's my personal preference. I prefer shorter but then, we can always do it again.
> 
> I lose my lubrication at a certain point.


I was more speaking of the entire act and not just PIV lol


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I guess I should have said that, in marriage, the only reason a woman should hate and avoid sex as much as the quoted female poster does, is because of abuse. Perhaps I'm being naive, though. I understand avoiding certain acts, or positions for various kinds of reasons, but to hate and avoid any and all sexual contact? Beyond abuse, emotional or physical or sexual, I don't see the cause for it.


Eh, Lord God designed human bodies to have legs, but some people actually born legless, or have legs but without ability to walk.

Same thing with aversion to sex. Just because most humans has genitals and nerve system which works, it does not means that everybody will be able to use them for sexual pleasure with a partner. Some people chose not to become sexual beings. That's life. 

And some people actually has physical problems which preventing them from enjoying a healthy sexual life. That's fate.

But, you know the most touching story in this board? It's about an elderly couple, which still have satisfactory sexual life despite the lady has vaginal atrophy. 

Even if the equipment does not work anymore, but as long as the mutual love and respect is there, that barrier is not unsurmountable.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Eh, Lord God designed human bodies to have legs, but some people actually born legless, or have legs but without ability to walk.
> 
> Same thing with aversion to sex. Just because most humans has genitals and nerve system which works, it does not means that everybody will be able to use them for sexual pleasure with a partner. Some people chose not to become sexual beings. That's life.
> 
> And some people actually has physical problems which preventing them from enjoying a healthy sexual life. That's fate.


True, but actual medical issues aren't really controllable. They're not willfully withholding sex from their spouse, which is an entirely different scenario. I have a lot of compassion for people with medical issues that prevent them from having sex. 



> But, you know the most touching story in this board? It's about an elderly couple, which still have satisfactory sexual life despite the lady has vaginal atrophy.
> 
> Even if the equipment does not work anymore, but as long as the mutual love and respect is there, that barrier is not unsurmountable.


I agree.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It's good that you are trying to compromise but it sounds like she's doing more compromising than you are.
> 
> Just my two cents.


She's having more sex. He's agreeing to stay in a relationship that he was starting to hate. I don't know about you, but I think staying committed to someone is a bit more of a sacrifice.



Created2Write said:


> Some of the men and women here _have_ experienced sexual issues in their relationships.


I'd wager the vast, vast, vast majority have actually. You don't come to a forum like this to tell everyone you're sex life is a 32 on a scale of 1-10.



Cletus said:


> Kudos to you for realizing that.
> 
> Having one sexual relationship in your life, even with good insight, isn't sufficient to be an author on the subject, methinks. We have enough people around here who think their experience represents the entire sum of human knowledge on the subject.
> 
> But by all means keep up the good work here.


Generally I agree, but frankly, I'd rather listen/read good advice regardless of who it comes from. I've learned more on this board in six months than I have from reading a lot of the expert books out there, such as His Needs/Her Needs. If C2W writes a book, I'll be the first one in line to buy it.



LittleBird said:


> I think I was unwittingly resentful about the sex because I had wanted to wait until marriage and then one night, we both got drunk and ended up having sex.
> 
> I was PISSED about it, deep down, and it made every time we had sex a reminder that I'd failed.


While I can understand this line of thinking, I'll encourage you to start looking at it in a different light. Imagine if you had waited until marriage to have sex. Do you really want to wait until you are married to have some issues surface, such as any fall out from your abuse? At least now, you have the freedom to explore your sexual boundaries while not being legally bound to someone or have children involved. Your drunken mistake could prove to be a blessing in disguise some day.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> She's having more sex. He's agreeing to stay in a relationship that he was starting to hate. I don't know about you, but I think staying committed to someone is a bit more of a sacrifice.


:iagree:



> I'd wager the vast, vast, vast majority have actually. You don't come to a forum like this to tell everyone you're sex life is a 32 on a scale of 1-10.


I was trying not to jump to conclusions, but yes. I agree.



> Generally I agree, but frankly, I'd rather listen/read good advice regardless of who it comes from. I've learned more on this board in six months than I have from reading a lot of the expert books out there, such as His Needs/Her Needs. If C2W writes a book, I'll be the first one in line to buy it.


 Thanks kingsfan. I appreciate that. 



> While I can understand this line of thinking, I'll encourage you to start looking at it in a different light. Imagine if you had waited until marriage to have sex. Do you really want to wait until you are married to have some issues surface, such as any fall out from your abuse? At least now, you have the freedom to explore your sexual boundaries while not being legally bound to someone or have children involved. Your drunken mistake could prove to be a blessing in disguise some day.


I agree. 

And LB, my husband and I wanted to wait until marriage too. We both were in church and had the same values, but the more we got to know each other, the more we liked each other. The more we like each other, the more time we spent together and the closer we tried to be. The closer we became, the more our physical urges grew. We kept trying to push boundaries and push boundaries, and we were engaged when we first had sex, but we definitely didn't make it to the altar first. 

Don't let that resentment keep you from enjoying sex now. Instead, work on making the relationship better so that, when you get married, the sex will be all the better. In fact, on our wedding night, it felt like we really were having sex for the first time. I don't know what made it different, it just was. So, it's not like the beauty of the honeymoon is gone.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2-3 times a month is what she would want. 2-3 times a week is what she is having.

Numbers wise, SHE is doing more compromising.

But well, I don't resent him anymore. We have more to worry about.

Well, I auditioned for a ballet company some time ago and was accepted. I chose law school. They called me BACK and apparently, one of their dancers is out of commission. They asked me to reconsider.

So now I'm sort of at a crossroads. He is not keen on the idea of me moving to New York.

I hate being a grown up.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> 2-3 times a month is what she would want. 2-3 times a week is what she is having.
> 
> Numbers wise, SHE is doing more compromising.


Right _now_, yes. But after twenty years it's time for her to be compromising, when she wasn't before. And, frankly, it's freaking difficult to find a middle ground where both are happy. 2-3 times a month simply isn't enough for her marriage. 

My husband would like sex every day. I'm more of a 2-3 times a week person. So, we do it at least 2-3 times a week. Not much of a sacrifice. 

To want it close to everyday, and barely get it once a week, isn't even close to a compromise. So now, she's compromising. And he doesn't have to compromise as much as she does to qualify as a loving respectable husband. Not in my opinion at least.



> But well, I don't resent him anymore. We have more to worry about.
> 
> Well, I auditioned for a ballet company some time ago and was accepted. I chose law school. They called me BACK and apparently, one of their dancers is out of commission. They asked me to reconsider.
> 
> ...


Such is life. However, _you_ chose law school once before. How responsible do you think it would be to turn back and choose ballet _now_? Bear in mind I'm not saying it would be irresponsible, necessarily. But there are hard decisions we have to make in life. And they suck. How many hours have you dedicated to your studies to get you here? So much so that you forgo the chance to be a ballerina to be a law student. You have an internship now, you're on your way to a degree, you have a fiance who will, definitely, be greatly impacted by your decision, whichever one you choose.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> 2-3 times a month is what she would want. 2-3 times a week is what she is having.
> 
> Numbers wise, SHE is doing more compromising.(


What numbers? What numbers does he have?

He's willing to sacrifice his freedom from a relationship he's grown to almost hate in exchange for what many would call a normal sexual frequency. He's sacrificing to get what the average couple gets normally. 

And as C2W pointed out, let's not ignore he's sacrificed a lot of sex away for two decades prior to his threat of leaving.

try looking at things from both sides, not just the LD side you come from LB.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> What numbers? What numbers does he have?
> 
> He's willing to sacrifice his freedom from a relationship he's grown to almost hate in exchange for what many would call a normal sexual frequency. He's sacrificing to get what the average couple gets normally.
> 
> ...


Well, I personally could never imagine having sex 2-3 times a month. 

I'm not LD in the typical sense, I do have a sexual drive, it just so happens that sex usually bores me and doesn't satisfy it. I like begin touched, I like touching him. 

But I could probably go months without PIV and not really care, though I think I'd miss the connection and God knows he'd be impossible to deal with.

2-3 times a week sounds normal, I guess but that doesn't really seem necessary to me. Sure, I'll go for it. Sounds like she's for it.

Chomping at the bit for it? No.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Well, I personally could never imagine having sex 2-3 times a month.


But then you state you could go months without PIV sex and not care....



LittleBird said:


> *I'm not LD in the typical sense*, I do have a sexual drive, it just so happens that sex usually bores me and doesn't satisfy it. I like begin touched, I like touching him.


I doubt you even know what typical LD was. I'd also refer you to a pile of conflicting posts you've made in this thread which indicate you are very LD, including saying you hate sex, how you don't even understand why it's important and how you could go months without PIV sex.... oh wait, the last one was this very post. Confusing much?



LittleBird said:


> *But I could probably go months without PIV and not really care*, though I think I'd miss the connection *and God knows he'd be impossible to deal with.*


Yeah neither of those two points in that one sentence indicate LD at all.



LittleBird said:


> *2-3 times a week sounds normal, I guess *but that doesn't really seem necessary to me. Sure, I'll go for it. Sounds like she's for it.
> 
> *Chomping at the bit for it? No*.


Apathy towards what the average couple deems normal would be a great indicator of LD in my books.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> But then you state you could go months without PIV sex and not care....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If the sex ever becomes mutually satisfying, we can re-evaluate my LD. 

I'm a sexual person who just happens to get very little out of conventional sex.

If you got little to no sensation, I doubt you'd care as much about PIV.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> If the sex ever becomes mutually satisfying, we can re-evaluate my LD.


I'm not LD, I just don't enjoy sex as often as my partner, but lets not discuss that until I do enjoy sex as often. Ever think you're LD because you don't like sex as often as your partner, or as often as the average person? That's what the LD person is, the one with less desire.



LittleBird said:


> I'm a sexual person who just happens to get very little out of conventional sex.


Which is another symptom of a LD person....



LittleBird said:


> If you got little to no sensation, I doubt you'd care as much about PIV.


Another example of being LD....

Really, what point were you trying to make here? That you're LD? I think you said that on page one and no one has refuted you since.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> I'm not LD, I just don't enjoy sex as often as my partner, but lets not discuss that until I do enjoy sex as often. Ever think you're LD because you don't like sex as often as your partner, or as often as the average person? That's what the LD person is, the one with less desire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't consider myself to be LD. I bought sex toys, I use sex toys, I could give a BJ a day and it'd be fine by me.

I just don't enjoy penetration and could live without it from a physical sense but emotionally, I enjoy it.

EDIT: Sometimes it can be fun, though.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't personally think you are a LD person as in born LD, I think that if you and your partner work together with all aspects of your relationship (as well as mutual satisfaction in sex) that there's a good chance your desire will naturally go up, the fact you have 3 vibrators says that it not so much LD.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I don't consider myself to be LD. I bought sex toys, I use sex toys, I could give a BJ a day and it'd be fine by me.
> 
> I just don't enjoy penetration and could live without it from a physical sense but emotionally, I enjoy it.
> 
> EDIT: Sometimes it can be fun, though.


I could read books on running and stretch everyday, but not enjoy the physical aspects of running. That doesn't make me a marathon runner.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

abitlost said:


> I don't personally think you are a LD person as in born LD, I think that if you and your partner work together with all aspects of your relationship (as well as mutual satisfaction in sex) that there's a good chance your desire will naturally go up, the fact you have 3 vibrators says that it not so much LD.


The key to it all is what LD stands for; low DESIRE.

You can own 1,000 vibrators, but who cares if there is no desire. 

No one is disputing LB HAS sex, but from her own admission there is no desire behind it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> I'm not LD, I just don't enjoy sex as often as my partner, but lets not discuss that until I do enjoy sex as often. Ever think you're LD because you don't like sex as often as your partner, or as often as the average person? That's what the LD person is, the one with less desire.
> 
> Which is another symptom of a LD person....
> 
> ...



Right. 

LB, there's really no point in trying to convince yourself or anyone else that you're not a lower drive person. Hell, _I'm_ the LD person in my relationship and I'm not afraid to say it. You won't be persecuted or anything for it. You like sex/want it less often than your fiance. I love sex, but I want it less often than my husband. No biggy. 

But pretending to not be something that you just might be is only going to make things worse for yourself. And, frankly, your posts have been utterly contradictory about whether or not you do like sex or want it, but the majority of what you've said has indicated that you really wouldn't care if PIV sex disappeared from your relationship. To the point that you actually thought having kids might make him leave you alone about it. 

Getting intimate pleasure from sex doesn't suddenly mean you have a normal or above average drive. Sexual drive is the amount of physical urge a person has to have sex, and how much they enjoy it when it happens. You don't seem, to me, to have much of either.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I don't consider myself to be LD. I bought sex toys, I use sex toys, I could give a BJ a day and it'd be fine by me.
> 
> I just don't enjoy penetration and could live without it from a physical sense but emotionally, I enjoy it.
> 
> EDIT: Sometimes it can be fun, though.


Enjoying _giving_ a blow job is absolutely not the same as enjoying _getting_ sex. And the emotional aspect of loving the intimacy, or enjoying the funness of it, is irrelevant to sexual drive.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> The key to it all is what LD stands for; low DESIRE.
> 
> You can own 1,000 vibrators, but who cares if there is no desire.
> 
> No one is disputing LB HAS sex, but from her own admission there is no desire behind it.


But there is a difference from someone who has always been and always will be LD and someone who has been abused and gone into a relationship focusing on pleasing her partner physically during sex rather than finding out what pleasures her during sex.
How many people would physically desire sex if they don't ever get a orgasm.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

And I agree with kingsfan. Vibrators mean absolutely nothing. IMO, a person could masturbate four times a day with vibrators, but if there is no or little sexual desire to be sexual with their partner, and little to no enjoyment of it when they do have sex, they are LD.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

abitlost said:


> But there is a difference from someone who has always been and always will be LD and someone who has been abused and gone into a relationship focusing on pleasing her partner physically during sex rather than finding out what pleasures her during sex.
> How many people would desire physically sex if they don't ever get a orgasm.


Once again, no one is disputing that LB is right to not have much desire. She could have zero desire and that'd be fine. 

I'm simply stating that she can have sex 10x a day, use 28 vibrators, give 18 men BJ's and be more open to anal than a porn star and she's still LD if there is little/no desire to engage in any of that.

And by LB's own words, she doesn't desire any of it much.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

abitlost said:


> But there is a difference from someone who has always been and always will be LD and someone who has been abused and gone into a relationship focusing on pleasing her partner physically during sex rather than finding out what pleasures her during sex.


Ehh, not necessarily. I've personally know women who were sexually abused and they have raging sexual urges. Abuse can absolutely effect how they view sex. Some of them come out of it with average sexual drives, some have above average drives, and some have below average drives. And many women who haven't been abused don't like sex too.



> How many people would desire physically sex if they don't ever get a orgasm.


Plenty. Before I ever orgasmed I loved having sex with my man. I didn't actually have my first orgasm for...I forget how long, but a while after being sexually active. I still craved his touch. Literally, my body ached for it, orgasm or no. And even now I have sex with my husband and I may not orgasm, but I love, love, love the act of being sexual with him. Orgasms don't necessarily make a persons sexual drive.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Enjoying _giving_ a blow job is absolutely not the same as enjoying _getting_ sex. And the emotional aspect of loving the intimacy, or enjoying the funness of it, is irrelevant to sexual drive.


I think about being sexual all the time.

But then when I have it, I don't like it all that much.

So, judging from my 2 partners (one of which was 40 years older than me and a sociopath) it's not really fair to deem me LD just based on that.

I think it remains to be seen. If I start orgasming during sex, I have a feeling I'll be the one jumping him.

Not that the terminology really matters. Of course most men are going to be HD....biology has engineered sex in their favor.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I think about being sexual all the time.
> 
> But then when I have it, *I don't like it all that much.*
> 
> ...


Yes it is. If you don't like sex a lot, don't enjoy it, don't want it much, however you want to phrase, you are LD. If that changes for whatever reason and you start wanting sex more often than your partner, you would then be HD. You are what you are in the present, not what you MAY be down the road.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I think about being sexual all the time.
> 
> But then when I have it, I don't like it all that much.


But see, liking it when it happens will eventually, if it hasn't already, effect how much you want/think about it. Enjoying sex when it happens is essential. 

Now, to be fair, your fiance may be a poor lover, and that may contribute. 



> So, judging from my 2 partners (one of which was 40 years older than me and a sociopath) it's not really fair to deem me LD just based on that.


But right now, unfortunately, you do seem to have LD tendencies. That may change in the future, but for now...



> I think it remains to be seen. If I start orgasming during sex, I have a feeling I'll be the one jumping him.
> 
> Not that the terminology really matters. Of course most men are going to be HD....biology has engineered sex in their favor.


It remains to be seen if your current drive will change.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Ok im kind of confused is LD low desire for sex or low desire for sex with the person your with (or the dynamics of the relationship)


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> So, judging from my 2 partners (one of which was 40 years older than me and a sociopath) .


I'm sorry, but don't call that first guy your partner! Sociopath is too kind. Rapist, maybe? Pedophile, sex offender, sexual abuser, predator, @#$%!%.

Never partner.

EDIT: And you didn't have sex with him. You were assaulted and battered.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

abitlost said:


> Ok im kind of confused is LD low desire for sex or low desire for sex with the person your with (or the dynamics of the relationship)


They're the same thing, imo. If you're single and you have no desire for sex, you don't want it, you're LD. If you're in a relationship and you're not trying to maintain abstinence, and you don't want sex/don't like it, you're LD. 

If you've had sex before and you loved it, but the person you're with isn't sexually satisfying, it's a different issue altogether, imo.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

abitlost said:


> Ok im kind of confused is LD low desire for sex or low desire for sex with the person your with (or the dynamics of the relationship)


Both. If you have low desire for sex with the person your with, you have a low desire for sex (unless you advocate extra-relationship sexual activities).


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> I'm sorry, but don't call that first guy your partner! Sociopath is too kind. Rapist, maybe? Pedophile, sex offender, sexual abuser, predator, @#$%!%.
> 
> Never partner.


I refer to him in my head as Mr. Wonderful.

Yes, it's twisted but I needed some humor.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

abitlost said:


> Ok im kind of confused is LD low desire for sex or low desire for sex with the person your with (or the dynamics of the relationship)


My opinion is that they are completely different. Low desire to have sex with your partner does not mean you have a low sex drive or that you're sexually incompatible. Just as problematic but not the same issue.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LB, did you ever make an appointment with a counselor?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> LB, did you ever make an appointment with a counselor?


I'm in therapy. You mean a marriage counselor?


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm in therapy. You mean a marriage counselor?


Yes, for both of you.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I guess I see someone who masturbates not as likely to be naturally LD (or as LD) as someone who doesn't masturbate/ have interest for sexual release at all.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> Yes, for both of you.


He doesn't want to go. And I am reluctant to go myself so it's hard for me to push him. 

He's like "We aren't even married and we don't have any real problems."

I mean, we don't really...but we have the POTENTIAL for a **** ton of problems later


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> He doesn't want to go. And I am reluctant to go myself so it's hard for me to push him.
> 
> He's like "We aren't even married and we don't have any real problems."
> 
> I mean, we don't really...but we have the POTENTIAL for a **** ton of problems later


....No offense, but you _do_ have problems. You both have individual issues that have created a not-so-healthy atmosphere in your relationship.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> My opinion is that they are completely different. Low desire to have sex with your partner does not mean you have a low sex drive or that you're sexually incompatible. Just as problematic but not the same issue.



:iagree: That' how I see it.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He doesn't want to go. And I am reluctant to go myself so it's hard for me to push him.
> 
> He's like *"We aren't even married and we don't have any real problems."*
> 
> I mean, we don't really...but we have the POTENTIAL for a **** ton of problems later


Excuse my french. What a dork! You can tell him I said that. 

It's about potential FUTURE problems and who knows what lays beneath the surface now...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> Excuse my french. What a dork! You can tell him I said that.
> 
> It's about potential FUTURE problems and who knows what lays beneath the surface now...


I mean, I'm the one who is going to have to pick up some extra hours to pay for it.

I'm the one who is likely going to get bashed to ****ing hell.

He just has to show up.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I mean, I'm the one who is going to have to pick up some extra hours to pay for it.
> 
> I'm the one who is likely going to get bashed to ****ing hell.
> 
> He just has to show up.


Looks like you may have to put your foot down! Are you good at that?  You won't get bashed...I bet Mr. golden toilet paper has more issues than you...


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Um.....okay....here's the thing. No, you aren't wrong to want what you want.
> 
> But you THREATENED TO LEAVE HER.
> 
> ...



I don't want her to compromise. I want her to enjoy it. It can be over in 5 minutes or it can be 30 or more minutes. I do have some control over it. 

I compromised for 18 YEARS with her LD. It's just been in the past 1'1/2 or so when I let her know what I wanted. I was way too passive in that department.

I am still ready to walk. If she is just having sex to make me happy and not leave and she clearly doesn't want it. She should just let me go.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> If someone was pumping on top of me for 30-40 minutes I'd have to tell them to get off...but that's my personal preference. I prefer shorter but then, we can always do it again.
> 
> I lose my lubrication at a certain point.


It's not porn star type of 30 minutes. Usually its just slow and easy or different movements or a different rhythm, add oral again for lube and continue on. When I get the feeling she wants to be done with it I just hurry it up or it will be a libido killer which also may happen after 15 or so minutes if I know she isn't feeling it. 

She would be happy for a one minute quickie. I want to do all the extras. Thats the desire part I want. Thats all


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> I don't want her to compromise. I want her to enjoy it. It can be over in 5 minutes or it can be 30 or more minutes. I do have some control over it.
> 
> I compromised for 18 YEARS with her LD. It's just been in the past 1'1/2 or so when I let her know what I wanted. I was way too passive in that department.
> 
> I am still ready to walk. If she is just having sex to make me happy and not leave and she clearly doesn't want it. She should just let me go.


I am sorry you feel this way. But as the resident devil's advocate, it seems she is between a rock and a hard place.

How is her attitude when having sex with you? I don't mean is she moaning, writhing whatever. I mean is she obviously unhappy she has to be there at all or is she just...neutral?

The fact that stepped up and cares enough to want you to stay means something.

If she really didn't care about you, she'd just have told you to **** off when you went to her with your desires. 

Perhaps she would be willing to have less frequent yet more passionate sex with you....is this something you have broached with her?

She may feel that now she has to do what you want, when you want it or you will walk. Those aren't sexy thoughts. 

You need to make sure she isn't having sex out of fear.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> It's not porn star type of 30 minutes. Usually its just slow and easy or different movements or a different rhythm, add oral again for lube and continue on. When I get the feeling she wants to be done with it I just hurry it up or it will be a libido killer which also may happen after 15 or so minutes if I know she isn't feeling it.
> 
> She would be happy for a one minute quickie. I want to do all the extras. Thats the desire part I want. Thats all


Compromise. I'd say 1 (or 2 if you can manage)/3 give her the quickie and let her be done with it. 

It's likely she just doesn't like sex very much and it probably has NOTHING to do with you. She probably loves you and shows it in different ways, you love her and show it through sex. 

So you aren't going to get porn star sex from her, it sounds like the isn't who she is.

But maybe if can be made to feel an emotional connection, even if she isn't in physical ecstasy, she can open up more.

Good luck.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> I don't want her to compromise. I want her to enjoy it. It can be over in 5 minutes or it can be 30 or more minutes. I do have some control over it.
> 
> I compromised for 18 YEARS with her LD. It's just been in the past 1'1/2 or so when I let her know what I wanted. I was way too passive in that department.
> 
> I am still ready to walk. If she is just having sex to make me happy and not leave and she clearly doesn't want it. She should just let me go.


Yea it would be easy for the pendulum to swing from too passive or tolerant to too aggressive or intolerant especially with a couple of decades of resentment.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Emotional connection?

Well, we met when we were 25. She was a virgin. I waited for over a year before she was ready for sex. I wasn't even able to use fingers on her . She was so innocent, so sweet, so understanding with my past issues, so emotionally supportive... I could go on here. I imagine you may have many of her good qualities. 

Even then was a slow process before and it took many many months for PIV. I knew all this from the start and I still wanted to marry her. I wanted to convince myself sex wasn't as important as the friendship we had together. I really thought over time, she would begin to enjoy it if we had that emotional connection. 

I really am a romantic sap, I write love messages on the bathroom mirror, I like chic flics, I cry watching pixar movies and way back when the movie Beaches first came out around 88 or 89 I cried. I was in the Military then and I made a bad impression with my buddies. They gave me krap for a long time..

I do know it's not me. She is just very LD. I think she is so much like you. She would be happy if she never had sex again .

I do know she cares. I do know she is trying. 

I just want her to enjoy sex! I just get sad because I know she doesn't. 

I even stopped working out with weights as well as running because that increased my drive even more.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> Emotional connection?
> 
> Well, we met when we were 25. She was a virgin. I waited for over a year before she was ready for sex. I wasn't even able to use fingers on her . She was so innocent, so sweet, so understanding with my past issues, so emotionally supportive... I could go on here. I imagine you may have many of her good qualities.
> 
> ...


Aw, sweetie. I'm sorry you're going through this. You sound like an absolute doll.

And no, I would not be happy if I never had sex again. The emotional intimacy, while not something I feel like I need everyday or even every week, is rather enjoyable.

Does your wife show that she has a sexuality? Pleasuring herself or anything like that? Because if she does, that is a starting point.

She sounds like she really wants to be a good wife.

It is hard for someone who doesn't feel those urges to understand where you are coming from. I'm not HD but I don't consider myself to be asexual, so I try to look at both sides of the fence. 

Listen, if you ever need to talk you can message me. 

Keep your head up and don't give up on her, or yourself.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> I really am a romantic sap, I write love messages on the bathroom mirror, I like chic flics, I cry watching pixar movies and way back when the movie Beaches first came out around 88 or 89 I cried.


Well let's be honest, pixar is pretty awesome. "Up' was really sad and some of "Toy Story 3" was too. And anyone with young kids would be vulnerable to misty eyes or more with beaches. More recently Mrs T made we watch the Notebook which I liked a lot.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Well let's be honest, pixar is pretty awesome. "Up' was really sad and some of "Toy Story 3" was too. And anyone with young kids would be vulnerable to misty eyes or more with beaches. More recently Mrs T made we watch the Notebook which I liked a lot.


Every time Rachel McAdams gets naked in a movie but doesn't turn towards the camera I cry a little too.

It's ok. You're safe here.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Every time Rachel McAdams gets naked in a movie but doesn't turn towards the camera I cry a little too.
> 
> It's ok. You're safe here.


That is a brilliant move, I'm offended you don't appreciate it's beauty.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> That is a brilliant move, I'm offended you don't appreciate it's beauty.


Oh, I get it. Even though I think Nicholas Sparks is a manipulative twat with his stories in general, he hit the mark on that one.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Every time Rachel McAdams gets naked in a movie but doesn't turn towards the camera I cry a little too.
> 
> It's ok. You're safe here.


Rachel McAdams; the new Kate Beckinsale. Wait Kate Beckinsale is still Kate Beckinsale. We need a movie with a makeout scene with Rachel McAdams & Kate Beckinsale. Blockbuster....


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

My wife has never pleasured herself. She says she feels nothing when she tries. I really believe she is trying. So yes, she really is asexual.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> My wife has never pleasured herself. She says she feels nothing when she tries. I really believe she is trying. So yes, she really is asexual.


In that case....she is going to have sex with you out of love, not out of physical desire.

I'm sorry if this is not ideal but you really have to decide what is more important to you. Lusty sex or your relationship. You have to decide if you can be happy without mutually satisfying sex.

Good luck.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> In that case....she is going to have sex with you out of love, not out of physical desire.
> 
> I'm sorry if this is not ideal but you really have to decide what is more important to you. Lusty sex or your relationship. You have to decide if you can be happy without mutually satisfying sex.
> 
> Good luck.


I had that "lusty" sex before. In the Navy My gf was a dancer. Everytime my ship pulled in, she was waiting for me. awesome.

Then after the Navy, My gf was a nurse. She would come over everytime I called her. That was great. She walked out on me when I talked about my past. I was after that emotional bond. She left right then and there. I was hurt so bad. When my wife came along, I told her all the $hit from the start and that crazy woman actually stayed. So so far it's our relationship/friendship I care about. 20 years worth.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> I had that "lusty" sex before. In the Navy My gf was a dancer. Everytime my ship pulled in, she was waiting for me. awesome.
> 
> Then after the Navy, My gf was a nurse. She would come over everytime I called her. That was great. She walked out on me when I talked about my past. I was after that emotional bond. She left right then and there. I was hurt so bad. When my wife came along, I told her all the $hit from the start and that crazy woman actually stayed. So so far it's our relationship/friendship I care about. 20 years worth.


The good ones are hard to find. 

You can find thousands of women to bang you but it's very hard to find someone who really understands you.

Good luck, oK? God bless.


----------



## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> Rachel McAdams; the new Kate Beckinsale. Wait Kate Beckinsale is still Kate Beckinsale. We need a movie with a makeout scene with Rachel McAdams & Kate Beckinsale. Blockbuster....


Oof, Kate Beckinsale, I am IN!!!

Hey, I am a sap for anything with daughters. I cried like a baby in Brave...


----------



## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> You can find thousands of women to bang you but it's very hard to find someone who really understands you.


Where is that exactly???


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> oof, kate beckinsale, i am in!!!
> 
> Hey, i am a sap for anything with daughters. I cried like a baby in brave...


omg i love brave


----------



## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> You can find thousands of women to bang...


Where is that land you speak of?


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> My wife has never pleasured herself. She says she feels nothing when she tries. I really believe she is trying. So yes, she really is asexual.


Well, as long as she is giving her best efforts to make you sexually happy, you could still have a good life. And, off course, you must also give your best efforts to make her life enjoyable, despite being asexual.

Her being asexual does not means YOU must also become asexual.

Your position is much better than having a spouse who is NOT asexual, but simply not enjoying having sex with you. Consider yourself blessed.

I do have one caveat though. If she had no physical satisfaction whatsoever, and doing sex with you "out of love"..

One day, when she's totally not in the mood of doing you a favor, you can't help but think "OMG her love to me is lessening.."

And if she keeps on doing that, you can't help but think "OMG she loves me less and less.."

That's what's gonna happen if the act of sex is always being tied-up into love, with no physical factor on it.

With a normal-drive sexual spouse, at least you can have sex and be secure, knowing that there are at least 30-40% chances that your spouse are having sex with you because he/she also derive physical enjoyment from the act. It also says that he/she still physically attracted to you, and that is a huge confidence booster.

With an asexual person, you don't have that security.

Still, if we are to speak in general terms, there are other factors which must be taken into equation. Sex is one huge important factor in marriage. But, there are other factor to consider. 

Does your spouse respect you and makes you feels respected? 

Does your spouse giving you the emotional security of being able to be yourself? To be at ease around him/her? 

Does your spouse cooperate with you to make your home enjoyable to life in? 

Does your spouse make serious efforts to care for your physical well-being? 

Does your spouse shows warmth and affection even when you're in grumpy mood due to the pressures of everyday life? 

Does your spouse always tried to communicate with you in the way which does not cause you resentment? 

So you see, there are many many factor to consider. A spouse could get a "barely pass/C--" mark in sex, but if he/she got "A+" in everything else, then don't you think it would be foolish to let him/her go? 

For an asexual person, getting a "barely pass/C--" mark requires efforts, because he/she is already a natural "F" in that department.

Not everybody is going to be a great lover, or to be good in bed. But everybody could make serious efforts to make their SO feel loved.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> Where is that land you speak of?


College.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

> You can find thousands of women to bang you but it's very hard to find someone who really understands you.


And then of course there are us women that love to bang the men we understand.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

For my wife, she doesn't equate love and sex. She doesn't feel more loved before during or after sex. I even asked her that from a thread on TAM a while back.

As far as my other non-sexual needs and desires... There is almost zero affection unless I initiate it. 

The though to touch my butt if I am cooking never crosses her mind, unless I touch her first. 

She will never hug me unless I move in to hug her first.

She has NEVER said I love you first. I have to say it first. Then she will say I love you too. We haven't said that for a couple of years now. EXCEPT when she went out of town for a few days and I stayed in town for work and to attend a fundraiser that I invited to. I had 2 women for my "date/ dance partners". She mumbled I love you when she called me before I left that evening. She was a little worried. She just never said anything.

Sooo just yesterday I started something new. Instead of saying I love you... I said I love you too. Then she laughed a little and said I love you! 

I think my wife makes for a great friend. If we can hire a maid once a week and I could have a sancha to fill in the gaps, our marriage would be great. 

My wife has sex with me because she knows I enjoy it. Whether or not it is from obligation, love, her desire, or the fact that she just wants to make me happy (doing me a favor). I don't know because she doesn't communicate that to me.

I will say that if we wait every 5 days or so, she will orgasm, sometimes twice. Once with oral and again through PIV. I think I can go every day. We recently had sex several nights in a row. By the fifth nigh, I was ready to go again. The look in her eyes was like you have got to be kidding! So we didn't do anything.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Already Gone said:


> For my wife, she doesn't equate love and sex. She doesn't feel more loved before during or after sex. I even asked her that from a thread on TAM a while back.
> 
> As far as my other non-sexual needs and desires... There is almost zero affection unless I initiate it.
> 
> ...


She sounds like a good wife, she sounds like she truly desires to make you happy.

Forgive her lack of making the first move, a lot of women are like that. It doesn't mean it is any less sincere when she says it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

1. I cried when I watched Brave. A lot. My husband thinks it's adorable when I cry on movies. The beginning of Oliver And Company makes me bawl absolutely every single time, and he just laughs. Though, I have the upperhand, cause we both cried on Toy Story 3. I looked at him at one part with tears in my eyes, and he had tears in his. lol. 

2. The Notebook is a _horrible_ movie. Bleh. The end was awesome, and I did love that the old couple was them, and I loved the ferriswheel bit, but the rest of it.....ick. 

3. Just because a man or woman values the sexual aspect of the relationship doesn't mean the rest of the relationship is less important. And even if that person leaves the marriage because of a lack of sexual compatibility doesn't mean they're shallow, or that they're choosing sex over the rest of the relationship. For some people being "in love" with their spouse fizzles when sex fizzles. I know it does for me.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> She would be happy for a one minute quickie. I want to do all the extras. Thats the desire part I want. Thats all


I hear ya.



Already Gone said:


> I really am a romantic sap, I write love messages on the bathroom mirror, I like chic flics, I cry watching pixar movies and way back when the movie Beaches first came out around 88 or 89 I cried. I was in the Military then and I made a bad impression with my buddies. They gave me krap for a long time..
> 
> I do know it's not me. She is just very LD. I think she is so much like you. She would be happy if she never had sex again .
> 
> ...


You sound like you could be my twin.

I'm in the middle of trying to drop a bunch of weight myself, but I'm reluctant to take up running again, or start doing weights or other exercise too because I'm afraid my libido will go up even further.



Thundarr said:


> Rachel McAdams; the new Kate Beckinsale. Wait Kate Beckinsale is still Kate Beckinsale. We need a movie with a makeout scene with Rachel McAdams & Kate Beckinsale. Blockbuster....


Screw a scene, that is the movie. A two hour make up session.



Holland said:


> And then of course there are us women that love to bang the men we understand.


I thought you were fictional?


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> 3. Just because a man or woman values the sexual aspect of the relationship doesn't mean the rest of the relationship is less important. *And even if that person leaves the marriage because of a lack of sexual compatibility doesn't mean they're shallow, or that they're choosing sex over the rest of the relationship.* For some people being "in love" with their spouse fizzles when sex fizzles. I know it does for me.


But this is not how some LD people thinks. They think "I am gracious and generous enough to give you yearly sex out of my love to you, despite the fact that I felt no physical satisfaction at all during my great act of selfless sacrifice...and you dared to leave me? _You're a bad bad bad bad person, I hope you got hit by a truck!_"

Off course I am honest enough to admit that I am exagerrating in the _italicized_ statement above ... but not the rest.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But this is not how some LD people thinks. They think "I am gracious and generous enough to give you yearly sex out of my love to you, despite the fact that I felt no physical satisfaction at all during my great act of selfless sacrifice...and you dared to leave me? _You're a bad bad bad bad person, I hope you got hit by a truck!_"
> 
> Off course I am honest enough to admit that I am exagerrating in the _italicized_ statement above ... but not the rest.


And that is the issue: neither person, the HD nor the LD is ever going to fully understand where the other is coming from, and that is what creates the incompatibility. It's not that I think being LD is worse and being HD is better, but that I think being incompatible is worse and being compatible is better. And that goes for most anything, not just sex. Even with a compromise on sexual frequency, the issue of not being understood by ones spouse has the potential to cause its own myriad of problems. Not that it's impossible to overcome, but it is very difficult.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> ...Even with a compromise on sexual frequency, the issue of not being understood by ones spouse has the potential to cause its own myriad of problems. Not that it's impossible to overcome, but it is very difficult.


It could be overcome only if both persons really love each other, have respect for each other, and has the ability to grasp the concept of LDness and HDness of human sexuality, and act with true tolerance, love and respect.

Even at my wildest times when I was younger, I cannot understand the concept of daily sex, or why would anyone like to have daily sex. Even watching Western adult erotica failed to teach me the concept, all I got was the concept of sex could happen anywhere, anytime, whenever there is desire. But not daily. 

Then it dawned me that sex is like our favorite meal. I like sushi and sashimi (Japanese food), but I don't want to eat them everyday. I want sushi and sashimi to be eaten at special times when I crave them. It's the same with sex.

BUT, some people loves sushi and sashimi so much they eat it everyday. 

Now, if I am married to a woman who loves sex very much. I will do my best to ramp up my ability to have sex with her as much as possible. If I can get it up 4 times a week, so be it, I am happy to oblige (my natural frequency is 1-2 times a week). But there will be times where I am just so tired and it is a physical impossibility to get hard. At that time I will apologize to the wife, and will exert every effort to fulfill her desire tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow. No fake promise, I will make efforts to make it reality.

But, if the wife got mad and call me names just because I am physically and psychologically unable to have sex everyday, or so deep in being unfulfilled that she is no longer happy in our marriage, then I am sure we would rather separated due to incompatibility. I will let her go and let her find a mate whom she could bonk everyday. If my best efforts is not enough, and I meant REAL best efforts, then I won't keep her any longer. And we could still be friends afterwards.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Then it dawned me that sex is like our favorite meal. I like sushi and sashimi (Japanese food), but I don't want to eat them everyday. I want sushi and sashimi to be eaten at special times when I crave them. It's the same with sex.
> 
> BUT, some people loves sushi and sashimi so much they eat it everyday.


Bingo




john_lord_b3 said:


> But, if the wife got mad and call me names just because I am physically and psychologically unable to have sex everyday, or so deep in being unfulfilled that she is no longer happy in our marriage, then I am sure we would rather separated due to incompatibility. I will let her go and let her find a mate whom she could bonk everyday. If my best efforts is not enough, and I meant REAL best efforts, then I won't keep her any longer. And we could still be friends afterwards.


So much easier said than done.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> So much easier said than done.


Yes. Especially if we really love our stbxw. It is difficult for the brain and the balls to convince the heart that this person is not suitable for us.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Yes. Especially if we really love our stbxw. It is difficult for the brain and the balls to convince the heart that this person is not suitable for us.


From my experience, balls don't really help you decide who isn't compatible for you on a non-sexual level.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> From my experience, balls don't really help you decide who isn't compatible for you on a non-sexual level.


Yea, good point. Beautiful, high-clan women are huge temptations for normal ordinary middle-clan men. Until they actually marry one. Then they will wish that they have picked a lower-clan village beauty with good attitude instead. 

I am only half joking


----------



## humanbecoming (Mar 14, 2012)

*Re: Re: Neither party can have it all, so why not accept what is good enuf?*



john_lord_b3 said:


> Yea, good point. Beautiful, high-clan women are huge temptations for normal ordinary middle-clan men. Until they actually marry one. Then they will wish that they have picked a lower-clan village beauty with good attitude instead.
> 
> I am only half joking


Often the exact is true here in western culture. It isn't a clan thing, but very often a spoiled princess from a monied family. The man thinks he's getting first prize, but ends up with a beautiful ice queen as an arm ornament.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

humanbecoming said:


> Often the exact is true here in western culture. It isn't a clan thing, but very often a spoiled princess from a monied family. The man thinks he's getting first prize, but ends up with a beautiful ice queen as an arm ornament.


wow, so this happens in your culture too? 

:scratchhead: strange but true :scratchhead:

But I guess human follies knows no state boundaries, it is a cross-culture thing 

Again this shows that education at home is very important. Formal schooling education only could teach sciences, religion and citizenships. Education about manners, attitude, good characters, human decency, they're all starts at home.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> wow, so this happens in your culture too?
> 
> :scratchhead: strange but true :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


My mother was a beauty queen. 

The woman is stunning to behold.

Complete *****.

Surprise, daddy.


----------



## humanbecoming (Mar 14, 2012)

It is sad when it happens, as the entire relationship becomes more of a sick chess match rather than a healthy partnership. 

Conversely, I have seen the same with very good looking guys- the ones we "average" guys envy, who seem to have it all, yet they marry a mousy, frumpy woman because they can control her totally.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

humanbecoming said:


> Often the exact is true here in western culture. It isn't a clan thing, but very often a spoiled princess from a monied family. The man thinks he's getting first prize, but ends up with a beautiful ice queen as an arm ornament.


IF YOU WANT TO BE HAPPY (FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE) Lyrics - JIMMY SOUL

Considering it's the 50's whe this song came out, I don't think it's actually 'cooking' he's wanting to refer to.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Then it dawned me that sex is like our favorite meal. I like sushi and sashimi (Japanese food), but I don't want to eat them everyday. I want sushi and sashimi to be eaten at special times when I crave them. It's the same with sex.
> 
> BUT, some people loves sushi and sashimi so much they eat it everyday.


What if I have several favorite foods? I love Fried chicken. I wouldn’t want that every night. I love pizza. Not every night.

After a 30 mile bike ride in the Texas Hill country on a hot summer day, A big chicken fried steak with mashed potatoes with a couple of beers while looking at all the kayakers on the water is awesome. Point being, If sex is like food, we need a variety. If it’s with the same person, (hopefully), we want it prepared different each time. If my wife could be the buffet table and I could eat off of her...That would be awesome too.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> What if I have several favorite foods? I love Fried chicken. I wouldn’t want that every night. I love pizza. Not every night.
> 
> After a 30 mile bike ride in the Texas Hill country on a hot summer day, A big chicken fried steak with mashed potatoes with a couple of beers while looking at all the kayakers on the water is awesome. Point being, If sex is like food, we need a variety. If it’s with the same person, (hopefully), we want it prepared different each time. If my wife could be the buffet table and I could eat off of her...That would be awesome too.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

kingsfan said:


>


Too funny. I thought you would post something like this


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Is there sushi there?


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I think that's all sushi.

Would using the body as a catering platter count as upcycling?


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> I think that's all sushi.
> 
> Would using the body as a catering platter count as upcycling?


At least it saves on dirty dishes. Seems green to me.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Heh heh, nice to know I am not the only one around here who loves Sushi!


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

This thread just got very awesome.


----------



## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> If you've read this forum long enuf, you know men complain about not enuf sex or HOW they get sex (meaning they have to initiate most of the time). Women complain he wants it too much, or isn't satisfied that she DOES have sex bcuz she loves hum, but not bcuz she is gagging for it.
> 
> Statistically, it would seem these scenarios are all too common. Not to say these are optimal situations, but if the man is getting it & she isn't turning you down, but being a GOOD wife & partner & participating when the ball gets rolling, it comes off as ungrateful for having someone who loves you do something to enhance the marriage bcuz she doesn't wanna rip your clothes off.
> 
> ...



Your entire opening post is the best opening post I'v ever read in my life. Everything you said is true, about "our nature". But I think it's:

1. Most men married because the sex was great when the two of you were dating and they felt that it would last forever (that's what my dumb ass thought).

2. Single men flaunt there sex-capades all the time, because they know that married men are starving for sex. Hence, why married men have less sex than single men mad::scratchhead: that still pisses me and every married man off).

3. As a result porn is the safety net. Some men won't go out and cheat so they'll masturbate and buy a flesh lite (that is my next purchase) or other sexual toys because they are not being sexually satisfied. _Then there wife gets pissed off and insulted by that rolleyes: It's like wives want there husbands to be sex deprived or as if THEY are the ones that decide when sex will happen. Not some porn site or sex toy)_

The men that do cheat or verbally abuse there wife, it's because of frustration. At a time I was one of those men that talked down to my wife. _After a while I stopped and stopped caring that we have vaginal sex twice a month (if I'm lucky) and I get oral sex 3 times a year. Matter of fact, I still only get oral sex 3 times a year and it's been 9 years. Yet when we were dating, she couldn't stop going down on me. I'll stop I'm starting to get pissed off
_

Those are the three simple reasons that I can think of. Still an excellent post by the way.


----------

