# Is there hope



## unsure823

My wife had an accident about 3 years ago and it caused her to do go through a lot. She started seeing a counselor and taking some medicine for stress. After seeing the counselor for a while she changed her lock code on her phone and password on her facebook account.. We had always been open with each other and had each others passwords, but she said she needed her privacy. I tried to respect that and did not push the issue. Now she has lost 70 lbs and is still seeing the counselor. She has changed her attitude toward life and is a totally different person. She is going out with friends and enjoying life. She has come to realize that some of the things I was doing she does not like. She said I pushed her from her friends and was not there for her when I should have been. We did not talk about the accident much because she did not seem to want to talk to me about it and her counseling session she did not want to talk about. We use to goto a Mexican restaurant on Friday nights and I would have a few drinks and sometimes get mean after the drinks. I have since stopped that. I agree I may not have spent enough time with my kids and I am changing that. I have even started seeing a counselor. Now she says our marriage has a 50/50 chance. She will be constantly texting on her phone while the family is watching a movie. She has stopped wearing her wedding band and says she wants her cake and eat it too. I am really trying to save my marriage but it is hard when all I hear from her is the negative things about me. Some days she seems like she wants me around and other days I thinks she could care less. We have a boy who is 10 and a girl who is 8. I want to save my marriage but I have told her I feel like it is over and she wants to throw me out. She says if she wanted to do that she would have done it a long time ago.


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## Thumper

Sounds like your wife is disconnected from your marriage

How old is she? Whats up with this accident, the way that was explained, it comes off very weird?

Your marriage seems VERY much in trouble. You already admit some fault, but be aware its a two way street. Its fine, great in fact, that you willing to look at yourself and address some issues. But don't take ALL the blame here.

This also smells of an affair, emotional or physical, the locked cell phone, he!! anything involving facebook privacy, the weight loss, the stop wearing of the wedding ring.

Do you have access to your cell phone bills, check numbers? Get a VAR to put in her car? I really really hate to call infidelity in most cases, but this has some serious red flags. You need to say NOTHING about it, but do some digging for piece of mind.

Ok, now on to getting this thing turned around. Some reading for ya.

1. The Healing Heart: The 180 this comes from the book:Divorce Busting: A Step-By-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again by Michele Weiner-Davis | Barnes & Noble

2.Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late: Whether She's Left Physically or Emotionally, All that Matters is? by Gary Smalley | 9781418578442 | NOOK Book (eBook) | Barnes & Noble

3.Love Busters: Protecting Your Marriage from Habits That Destroy Romantic Love by Willard F. Jr. Harley | 9780800718947 | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble

4.His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage by Willard F. Jr. Harley | 9780800719388 | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble


Theres obviously a lot more going on here as to what you've posted, and that's ok. BUT if you really want some great advice, and if your willing, you need to SPILL it all. We don't know who you are, but fill in as many details as you can. You must be as honest as possible about yourself, maybe some stuff there that will be hard to type, but you wont get the advice you need without it.

Is your wife a stay at home mom, your ages, your work, schedules, time you spend together, warning signs you might have missed?

Hope you come back for some advice/tips, or just to vent. Hate seeing another marriage down the drain.


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## unsure823

My wife is 36 she works days and I work nights. I am usually up by the time she gets home some we have the evenings together. I am 42. 
The wreck she had was a kid ran out in front of her and the police did a full investigation and said it was not her fault. The parents of the child have started a lawsuit on her for 750,000 even though the kid only had about 40,000 in medical bills. This is where me and her both fill like all of this started. She says she was content with the marriage until she started seeing a counselor and has realized she did not have to just be content in her marriage, she wanted to be happy. She likes to travel and do things I am pretty much a home body. She says she let me push her friends away from her. Her best friend has moved 12 hours away and from what I hear it is because she felt like she did not have a reason to stay in this town. My wife is constantly texting on her phone and it does seem to be with her best friend, but we can not do anything with out her texting. My daughter had a dance recital the other week and my wife was texting during it. After the accident I felt like my wife needed space which I gave her and now I feel like we have disconnected during the past two years. My wife has even said I do not know her. I tried a few months ago to get her to by some shorts that were fairly short and she said they were to short, well I took my son fishing yesterday and my wife come home after we did and she had on a pair of shorts that if she bent over just right you could see her butt. 
The other problem we have is I took over a company vehicle toward the first of the year and that cut my pay by almost a 1000 a month. Now we are week to week on making bills. I stopped fishing to make up some of the money and even considered selling my boat. Yes she lost weight and needed new clothes, but she is constantly spending money. We have one credit card that has a few hundred dollar payment each month and once it is paid down a little she uses it again and will not give me the card. Before I took the company vehicle she paid all the bills, but now she gave me the bills to pay and when I took them over I had to spend our little bit of savings to get everything caught up.
The other week she said she was going to a friends house. Well this is a new friend that is married to an old boyfriend. I asked about the old boyfriend being there and she said he would not be there. This person lives in another sate and I did she a charge on our bank statement from the town they live in so I know she went there, but his friend either was bi or is still bi sexual and have heard my wife talking to her best friend about messing around. I even asked when she was going to the other state if she was going there to she if she liked women and she said no, but I have my doubts considering what little I have heard.
I thought the other day I would tell her that if she wanted to save this marriage that she needs to meet me half way. But I have yet to do that because I am scared. We do have a joint counselling meeting this week, which I think I want to see how that goes before I jump the gun. As you can tell I am probably to nice of a person I don't want to be mean to her and push her away, but I have been told I need to stand my ground and not just let her run all over me. I am holding on to every little bit of hope I can get.


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## deejov

OP,
Sorry you find yourself in this situation.
Thumper gave you some really great advice, doing some reading before your joint counselling session would be a really really good idea.

Only thing I can comment on is I can relate to going through something traumatic, and not feeling like your spouse was supportive. 

A trauma can change a person. Make them think about their personal happiness, and what they want out of life. Sounds like she is rediscovering her sense of self esteem \ confidence. This can be a red flag to other issues, or it could be the expected outcome of the accident and the "wake up call" to life. 

Whatever happens, consider that working on yourself is an important thing you can do. This comes under the 180 aspect.
Good luck, peace


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## Thumper

wow, ok, this really changes things up.


I'm gonna call this a MLC, mid life crisis, might even be a WAW, walk away wife, at this point she's starting to rewrite marital history to justify her new life/actions. Right now despite what you think you are doing, you can only cause MORE DAMAGE. Theres nothing you can do to fix/repair the marriage, only time will tell if she will snap out of this fog. Right now you can NOT compete with her friends, the fun, the catching up on life aspect of what she's doing.

She, if she hasn't already, is gonna be asking for time and space to figure things out. I'm sorry but all you can do is sit back, take your kicks to the crotch and wait it out. Forget options 2-4 in my previous posts. Right now you you to focus on option 1. Start the 180 NOW, for your own piece of mind. As this evolves your gonna start getting blamed for more and more stuff, things you did or said from back in the first years you were together are gonna start to resurface as she tries harder and harder to justify why she needs to do this for herself. 

Man, im not gonna lie, this is going to be really TOUGH on you, cause your gonna take more and more blame, and your gonna take it as feeling more and more guilty about it. DONT.

The strategy with the 180 is to the best of your ability, tune her out, work on yourself by taking care of yourself. I might be crazy but I honestly think its easier to do if your separated. Your still living in the same house, makes this much easier for you to take this more personal. Don't sell that boat, in fact getting a sleeping bag, there will be nights you might need to just get away.

Do you have children involved with this??


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## Thumper

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-mid-life-crisis-walk-away-wife-syndrome.html

Ok, this is a link to "This is me" 's story, its basically what your about to go thru, your wife's accident is what triggered this but the situation is basically the same. Please click and do some reading to get an idea of what your up against. 

Heres basically the follow up thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/34241-she-just-walked-out-me.html

Now I know every situation is a little different, but a lot of the cycles your wife is about to go thru are like a text book she's following. I want you to understand, his marriage is back on track, but look at the dates involved here, its gonna take a LONG time.

And i'll be honest, his story is the exeception, not the rule.


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## unsure823

Guys you have probably hit the nail on the head. We talked Friday night and she did seem to give me every reason in the world why she should not stay with me. She has always said she remembers everything and she is bringing up the bad things I done all the way back to when we first started dating. Now granted I now I was not the best back then, because I was married at the time and had divorce papers filled on my ex wife because she cheated on me. I was going through a tough time and was drinking pretty heavy. Of course all of that was 17 years ago. I did not say much Friday night. Saturday my daughter was at her sisters and I took my boy fishing, but on the way home, I sent her a text letting her now I was totally confused because Wednesday she said she was glad she was sticking around and wanted us to do joint counseling, but then Friday she gives me everyone reason to leave. She proceeds to tell me I am taking things the wrong way and turning things around. She also says I am the one that always wants to talk then she seems to be the one doing all the talking and feels like she is just attackiing me. She said that we should not have these type conversations outside of counseling and I tried to get her to see that different, but realized it was a loss cause. I finally told her she was right and that we needed to live or life and have fun, because if we did not we would never get to know each other again and I agreed to not talk about this outside of counseling. Me and my children watched a movie in the bed while my wife got on her phone and went to texting. We talked about taking the kids to the pool Sunday, but it rained and we started really cleaning our bedroom. We have not cleaned together in years. She has been the one doing the hard cleaning while I usually keep things picked up around the house. Today though we both did the hard cleaning and I even removed the shower doors from the bathroom. Our children are getting older and we decided a few weeks ago to give them seperate baths. Today we made the big announcement and my daughter first had a fit, but later started to clean her bathroom and my son even went to his new bathroom and got it clean and organized. My son hardly every cleans which this made me proud of him. I think the time with my kids is really paying off for them. They seem to be changing with me. 
I have read over the 180 and I still have a hard time starting this process. She is not telling me I love you during the day, but when I leave for work at night we kiss and she tells me she loves me and I say I love you. We will see in the morning, but she usually tells me I love you and gives me a kiss before she leaves. I know this is totally different from the 180 but it is hard for me to believe that she has totally gave up hope and that I could even think of letting her go. 
She has trip planned this weekend to see her best friend.They are meeting a few hours away and have a free place to stay. I really trust that this is where she is going because her best friend is meeting her parents at this place and they are taking her kids for a few weeks. We have some things that belong to her and my wife will be taking them. I feel part of the problem is because her best friend is having marriage problems and that can get my wife down and would make it easier on my wife to move in with her if they divorce. 
When we made the announcement about the kids having there own bathrooms my wife started talking about painting them the way the kids want them and buying things they would want in them. This I feel like gives me hope, but I also worry because I know how tight our budget is. 
We have a trip planned in July to see her best friend and I have been able to work some overtime to hopefully pay for it, but I did hear the wife on the phone today talking to a credit card company trying to get a new card to have to use on the trip. 
I also have two guys I have been working with on and off for years, that I have been talking to about all of this and they pretty much agree that I should be doing something similar to the 180, which makes me think I should, but it is hard when I feel like I have hope.I told them Friday night I had made up my mind to let her know if she wanted this to work that I needed some action from her. Of course I have not done that yet. I feel like her response will be that she is still telling me I love you and lets me cuddle in the bed in the mornings with her. 
The thing is my anxiety today has not really showed up. I think it is because I was able to spend the day with her and we did not argue or talk about what is going on. I felt like this was a great day for both of us. This also makes it hard for me to back away. She ever thanked me tonight for helping.She even said that she thought she may be snapping out of this slump and asked if I remembered the last time she was in a slump. I did not really answer as I was heading out to the trash. I think when she said slump, she was talking about letting the house get dirty and putting distant between me and the kids, which is what she has been doing till just a few weeks ago when I started to change. I really think I may try to hold out on the 180 till after vacation, but I guess that will all depend on how things go including the marriage counseling.


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## Thumper

Look, every situation is different, and you know your wife obviously better than all of us. Any suggestions we all make are based on the percentages. Its never to early or too LATE to start the 180. If you feel you can attack this better with love, understanding, and cooperation then you do what YOU feel is right. If it starts to go south, then kick in the 180.

My only warning, is really commit to what your doing until you need to change it. But you must really LISTEN to to what she is saying, once you get good at it, she'll tell you what you need to know. Be ready for those bad days too!! Glad you had a nice day with your wife and kids. But beware tomorrow might be brutal, roll with the punches.

Good luck


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## unsure823

I appreciate the support. I am scared after having a good day to do anything to make matters worse. I atleast want to wait till we go to a counselor before starting the 180. If i feel the need to do this sooner I will. I have done a few of the don'ts and I do see that they may not be helping. She talks like we will be together for awhile but I still have not seen any action. That is what I am wanting now. If I could see some action I might feel better about things. She did hug me one time this weekend and even tickled my feet which I let her do because normally I would be ticklish to let her do. For the most part I trust her it is just like has been said there is major red flags but I have not found any proof of anything. Of course I have been told if I am caught snooping I will get divorce papers for sure, so I am not doing any. I guess we will see how the next few days go, because we do not have counseling till Thursday. I was considering telling her I need some signs to show me that she wants this but after reading the 180 I guess that is not a good idea. Not to mention I figure she would say that she is still saying I love you and letting me cuddle should be sign enough. I also did consider just walking out of the house last night without saying bye when I left for work, but knew that would lead to her saying something about me playing games. I guess this is what scares me. She has my number and knows how to turn things on me. I feel like not matter I do it will be wrong, but I guess maybe that is more reason to start the 180. I understand I need to look after me and my children, but I still love my wife and want her to be with me.


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## unsure823

Just and update. She did seem great today. She was even saying I love you first. My boys ball team had a game and I took him and my daughter there. My wife came by to pick up the daughter and things were good. I got home and she had subway for me to eat. I checked on her in the bedroom and her and my daughter were facetiming with my daughters best friend so I ate dinner in the den, considering the bedroom had just been cleaned yesterday. I guess this may have been a mistake because things seem to go down from there. After dinner I went in the bedroom and we talked for a few minutes then she started texting. I got up and took my shower with out saying a word. After my shower she was on the computer and her phone, so I had clothes in the dryer that I put up. Afterwards I tried to lay with her for a few minutes and she was on the computer still. She was dozing in and out of sleep since to had taken her ambien already. She continued to type what she was typing and I said I would help but did not want to and left it at that. She said something about me not wanting to see or I would want to see what she was typing, this was said mummbling through her half sleep so I ignored it. She dozed off and I had my daughter leave the room, so my wife could go to sleep and started to leave the room then she wanted me to rub her. I have always rubbed her back, so this was kind of normal. I rubbed her back for about 10 minutes and she was out like a light. I got up and sat with my kids for a few minutes then proceeded to get ready for work. When I grabbed my phone which I have started to mute when I come in the house because I want to be with my family and not on the phone, there was a text from my wife about the time I sat down to eat dinner and she had said come in here. I sent her one back saying sorry I just got the message. I also sent her one saying love you and sleep tight. Also when looking at facebook she had posted a commit saying life can be simply mind blowing sometimes! whew! I guess what will will be..... I do now from the conversation we had tonight that her best friend husband was being a jerk tonight, but I still can not help but think this may have been aimed at our relationship. I am planning to ask her in the morning when I see her. I don't want to do it over text, but this is going to eat at me all night.


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## unsure823

Well I got lucky last night at work and she was not sleeping good and posted something on facebook. I sent her a text asking if she was up and we talked. I was able to figure out her comment was not about us. He best friend is miserable in her marriage. Her husband feels like my wife is part of there problem and my wife said she would back off and that would show him she is not part of the problem. This is really eating at her. We continued to talk and now she wants to move 12 hours away. She said she is headed there with the kids either with me or without me. She is still saying we have a 50/50 chance and wondered if I would move even though we only have a 50/50 chance. I said I probably would if that is what it took to keep my family together. I do feel like this is pretty one sided.I am doing all the work and giving and she is just living life. I feel there is very little effort on her part to keep this marriage but I also feel I understand why. 
Like I have said we have been through this many times. I have changed but as soon as I get comfortable with things I change back. She is afraid I will go back to my old ways. This I understand because I feel like a person can only take so much.
We did talk about if we moved that her best friend may divorce her husband and would have to move in with us. This creates another problem because her children were brats before but it has been awhile since I have been around them, so I do not know how they are now. My wife is afraid that it will be another battle if they move in with us and she does not want any more battles. I understand this because I did push her best friend away from her because of the kids, but I also know if I move up there that I will be back around them. I feel like my wife and her best friend or a package deal, so I will really have to make some changes if I move with my wife. I was honest with my wife and let her know that I felt I could be a better person around her best friend kids with some counseling. She did not want to her that, but I was being honest. Her best friend is a good person it was just the kids I had problems with.
My wife also said if she moved in with us that I could sleep in the basement and they could have the master bedroom. I said that would be weird because I would want to cuddle with my wife. She said that I could still cuddle with her and that she could divorce me and I could have conjugal visits with her and her friend. Now I am not so sure how serious she was about this, but it did feel weird. I told her I was thinking on the way home that I could see me being a father figure to her best friend kids and she said I would be more of a father then they have now. All I can say is wow I have a lot on my plate now.


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## caladan

unsure823 said:


> Well I got lucky last night at work and she was not sleeping good and posted something on facebook. I sent her a text asking if she was up and we talked. I was able to figure out her comment was not about us. He best friend is miserable in her marriage. Her husband feels like my wife is part of there problem and my wife said she would back off and that would show him she is not part of the problem. This is really eating at her. We continued to talk and now she wants to move 12 hours away. She said she is headed there with the kids either with me or without me. She is still saying we have a 50/50 chance and wondered if I would move even though we only have a 50/50 chance. I said I probably would if that is what it took to keep my family together. I do feel like this is pretty one sided.I am doing all the work and giving and she is just living life. I feel there is very little effort on her part to keep this marriage but I also feel I understand why.
> Like I have said we have been through this many times. I have changed but as soon as I get comfortable with things I change back. She is afraid I will go back to my old ways. This I understand because I feel like a person can only take so much.
> We did talk about if we moved that her best friend may divorce her husband and would have to move in with us. This creates another problem because her children were brats before but it has been awhile since I have been around them, so I do not know how they are now. My wife is afraid that it will be another battle if they move in with us and she does not want any more battles. I understand this because I did push her best friend away from her because of the kids, but I also know if I move up there that I will be back around them. I feel like my wife and her best friend or a package deal, so I will really have to make some changes if I move with my wife. I was honest with my wife and let her know that I felt I could be a better person around her best friend kids with some counseling. She did not want to her that, but I was being honest. Her best friend is a good person it was just the kids I had problems with.
> My wife also said if she moved in with us that I could sleep in the basement and they could have the master bedroom. I said that would be weird because I would want to cuddle with my wife. She said that I could still cuddle with her and that she could divorce me and I could have conjugal visits with her and her friend. Now I am not so sure how serious she was about this, but it did feel weird. I told her I was thinking on the way home that I could see me being a father figure to her best friend kids and she said I would be more of a father then they have now. All I can say is wow I have a lot on my plate now.


:scratchhead:


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## unsure823

This is where things stand as of now. Yes I have been very touchy feely toward her and she does seem to understand. She was making jokes about it tonight which is fine with me. She was a little touchy with me tonight which I am glad because I feel like she maybe coming around. She is talking to me more even if it is about her best friend having marriage problems, but atleast we talk. I tried to ask her about the move and she would not give me a straight answer. We did talk a little about the situation tonight and she feels that his weekend her being away is a good thing. It maybe but I am not sure. She is meeting her best friend halfway and spending a couple of nights there. She will not have good cell phone service so we may not get to talk much. I plan on spending time doing things with my children and trying to enjoy the weekend with them. I hope my anxiety stays in check, but it is on high alert as of now. I am nervous about the counselor tomorrow, but can't say that there is one thing that is causing me to be nervous. I told her that I will probably cry tomorrow and she said she will probably not cry and may even seem like a b**** tomorrow. I understand her keeping her distant because we have been through this so many times, but I still would like to see something to show she is trying. I know if I tell her that she will say she is cuddling and letting me be touchy feely with her and she is still around. I am not sure what I am looking for from her to show that she is trying, but I do feel like her not wearing her wedding ring hurts. I also try to tell my self that if she wants to cheat she will cheat with or without the ring on.
I guess with her not having great cell phone service this weekend will allow me to give her the space she probably wants for this weekend. I know it will be hard for me and just hope I can enjoy the time with my children and keep my anxiety in check.


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## unsure823

Well it is 1 1/2 hours before our counseling session. I am a nervous wreck. I worked last night and the guys could tell I had things on my mind. I came home this morning and me and the wife had a pretty normal mourning. She left for work and I went to sleep. Once I got up I cut the grass then came into shower. While in the shower I just had to sit down I don't feel the greatest. I want someone to talk to but really have no one so I am on here just to vent. I have thought about how this counsiling session could go, but feel like no matter how I look at it things will probably go different. After the counselor the wife and kids are going with me to dinner. She has said she may not stay for the full dinner so she can get on the road for her trip, which I understand. Also she has said that we probably should not talk about the session away from the counselor, because of the way I take things sometimes.I am not sure if she will be seeing a counselor apart from joint counselling because she has said that we need to work on our marriage now. I have called another counselor and hope to hear from them today. I know I need seperate counseling and plan to do that even with joint counseling. When all of this started I did some writing and sometimes I feel like I should let her see what I wrote and just lay it all out on the table to see where things go, but I am scared. I am scared of pushing her away. Yes I need her and my children in my life, but I also understand if she is not happy then I don't want to make her more unhappy. She has told me that she wants to do things and travel. Which I understand but in our financial situation it is hard. I sometimes feel like she thinks she can continue to spend money and it will keep coming in. I stopped fishing this year because money got so tight and she just kept spending money. When I look back that hurts. At the time I just blew it off, but it is hard to believe the she took my one thing that I could do to relax away from me.


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## unsure823

Well the counselor went great. She says she can not trust anyone after the accident not even me. She has problems with our past because I did not stand up for her when I should have. She is willing to work on our marriage. The counselor wants us to do individual counseling for now and one day go back to joint counseling. I realize that this may have been the proof that I needed that she is still here and willing to try this. I know I have a lot of work to do because of my own problems and all I can ask for is that she is willing to work with me. If I don't change things she will leave and I fully understand that so I hopefully can get in with another counselor next week. Now time to enjoy my weekend with my children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thumper

Grats U. That's good news for sure. One bit of warning, do your research on therapists, my wife's was all about the future and was giving her advice to just end the marriage if she was unhappy. Try and ask a family therapists if she promarriage and willing to do IC counseling as well.


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## unsure823

Thanks Thumper. I feel like her counselor wants us to continue to work on our marriage and is not going to try to make us divorce. This is the second time I have meet with him and really like her counselor, but he will not see me for the reason that he already sees my wife and does not want a conflict of interest with both of us seeing him. Like I said my wife is going to continue independent counseling while I start independent counseling and I am guessing when the time comes we will be doing marriage counseling. I am not sure when or how long that will be. I am hoping we maybe able to do that atleast once a month for starters and then go from there. I am not sure what you been by IC counseling.


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## unsure823

I finally heard from the counselor that was recommended to me and I can not get in to see him till July 3rd. I am anxious to see a counselor and get this process moving, so I am a little hurt that I can not get in to him sooner. The other thing that eats at me is this is the day we are suppose to leave on vacation to see her best friend and she has told me that she does not want me to go up there and be an a-hole. I texted her today letting her know I could not get in till July 3rd and that I could not make any promises on our vacation. I told her to be honest with me and let me know if she thinks I should go on the vacation. Granted her best friends husband I am partial to be friends with and have been friends with her best friend, but feel I have grown apart from them since the move. I have not really talked to either one of them, mainly because I did not want to come between my wife and her best friend. I would say I was closer to her best friend then her best friend husband. My wife asked me if I wanted to go and would listen to her if she told me I was being an a-hole. I said I did want to go and I would listen. She said I should go. This trip really scares me because I know if I screw things up my marriage could really be over. I know this is part of the problem we are suppose to be working on, but I do not feel I have a fair chance since I have not really been to counseling and hopefully will only start the day we leave. I did take my kids to the river today and had fun but toward the end of the day I could feel my anxiety kicking in and now I have played some video games with them and really wish I could have some alone time to see if I can get my anxiety in check. I have told my wife that I can see that anxiety can ruin even the best things. I am scared to death over my anxiety and where things could lead on this vacation, but know it is probably something I need to do.


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## unsure823

WOW!! My anxiety just kicked me good. I was sound asleep and woke up just for a few minutes and it was there. I could not even think about going back to sleep. I just sent the wife an email letting her know what happened. She said today she was ok with us talking about my anxiety, even though she has anxiety also. I told her I did not want to be a burden on her, but I am glad she is willing to listen. I do feel better after venting to her about what just happened, but this anxiety is crazy. I have no control over it and I am taking medicine for it. I wonder if I need to call the doctor and let him know that I am not sure if the medicine is working. I believe I am taking a generic of Effexor. My doctor said he likes to try the cheaper options first, which is fine with me, but I want something that works. I have never had anxiety before so I am not sure if there is a cure all for it. Sometimes I feel like the anxiety is a good reminder to me that I need to be working on things, but it sure can mess up a good things. Just like the other weekend when I took my boy fishing.


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## unsure823

Man this sucks. She tells me after writing to her last nigh during my anxiety episode that she wants to be there for me and wants to be the one I talk to about my anxiety. Of course she is on her weekend get away and calls tonight saying I just called to check in. We had a short conversation and then some how it turned to my anxiety. I let her know that I feel it coming on at night and she says maybe I need some medicine to take when I feel an episode coming on. She has some medicine she takes for it, but I am not sure what. Maybe I do I am not sure. Well while I am talking to her I can tell she gets side tracked with what ever is going on where she is so I get quiet. Then I proceed to tell her how weird it felt to wake up last night and start having anxiety out of no where. It makes me feel like I am really sick and I am rarely sick. She ask if something brought it on and I said no and tell her I am glad she is here for me, but I feel like I was not there for her when she needed me and I feel bad. Well then she proceeds to say she is where they are going and will talk to me in the morning. I feel like I just got the cold shoulder from the one person I thought I could talk to about this. Yes it hurts and I am having anxiety for sure now. My hands are shaking as I type this. She also said she hoped I slept better tonight, but I know for sure after this, that my mind will be playing this over and over and will probably have a restless night. I figure last nights anxiety took about 45 minutes to go away and it did get better after I typed her an email, but I do not feel like I can send her and email or text, because I feel like she gave me the cold shoulder and is the main reason my anxiety has kicked in. Yes I did feel like I was on edge before I talked to her and she just pushed me over that edge. I know this will probably lead to an argument and that is the last thing I want to do is argue with her. My mind tells me she probably did not mean for it to be that way, but I still feel this way and I can not help it. I also feel part of my anxiety is from me not being able to see this other counselor for so long. I know this is going to be a long road, but I want to make it a short one. I just wish I could convince myself of how long this road is and it would probably help my anxiety. I do feel a little better after typing this, but like I said I know I will continue to think about getting the cold shoulder.


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## unsure823

Well I can't give over this attack. I am probably only making it worse on myself. I sent my wife a text saying I love you and miss you, which I felt like I needed to do, but also figured I would not get a reply. Which I did not get a reply. That was about 45 minutes ago. Then about 10 minutes ago I sent her another text asking if she was still up and had a few minutes before she went to bed if she could call me. I have not gotten a reply from her on that either. Now granted if she has taken her sleeping medicine she maybe asleep, but remember they were still out and about 2 hours ago and it usually takes her sleeping medicine a hour and a half to kick in. This anxiety attack is not my worst but seems to be one I can not get over. I just looked at my medicine and I have been taking if for 10 days, which the doctor said it may take a couple three weeks for it to kick in. I just wanted to talk to her. I feel like I have gave her space during this weekend and was not going to say anything about feeling like I got the cold shoulder. I just felt like I needed to talk to her to help me get over this anxiety. Now that I can not get a reply from her my anxiety seems worse. I feel like I need to be doing something. I feel like I have a bundle of energy in me, but I was going to save cleaning the house for tomorrow before she came home. I do not want to start cleaning tonight since the kids are settled down. It is either I get up and do things or I go to bed and I know if I go to bed I will be up in a couple of hours. I am not sure if I will have anxiety then or not, but I know I will wake up in a few hours. That is just how my sleep schedule is on the weekends since I normally work nights. Now that I think about it they are a hour a head of me where she is, so maybe she is in bed. I did consider texting her friend, but I feel like that is not a good idea. I am going to need support from some people to get me through this anxiety. I leaned on the guys last week at work about my marriage and feel like they are a little feed up hearing about it. I do not really have a best friend or any close friends that I can talk to. The few friends I do have are married to her friends and feel like things will get back to her and just don't feel like that is right. I guess some of the people that have read my other post are probably feed up listening to me. I know I can be long winded on this subject and seem to be posting a lot, but I don't have any where to turn. I did start just a journal the other week before I started posting here, but thought maybe I could get more help here then just putting it in a word document. Sometimes I feel like if I could just pick up the phone and talk to a counselor that might help, but I figure that could get expensive and money is tight. I guess enough rambling for now and I will try to keep my post to a minimum so maybe I don't bore everyone away from ever reading my post. Well I just looked at facebook and she is still up and out and about. She made a post about 15 minutes ago. This figures since I had typed this and felt like I might be winding down from my attack this kind of gets me where it could start again. Am i jealous of the time she spends with her best friend and the amount of time the spend texting. Maybe so, but what to do about it and not start a fight.


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## unsure823

Well she did call and we had a great conversation. My anxiety is under control now. She did bring up something that I would like to ask about. I have dipped tobacco for years and I have been trying not to dip around her and the kids so much during the day, but once I leave for work or the kids get settled in like tonight I get me a chew. I told her my anxiety seems to kick in at night and she said do you think maybe it is the tobacco. I said could be. I was wondering if anyone had heard of tobacco making anxiety worse?


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## unsure823

My wife got home last night and we went to eat dinner. Then we got home and went next door for a little bit and got home. She started unpacking and I helped with what I could. Then we finally settled down in the bed. I was hoping for some alone time. We did talk some more about her trip, then she started texting her best friends husband and her best friend. I understand this a little because her best friend had a longer trip home then she did and she was worried about her. She had taken her sleeping pills, so we never really got any alone time. The only way she stopped texting was she went to sleep. I snuggled up to her and slept a little. She slept some then some storms came in and we have dogs scared of storms, so the got in bed with us and I was still snuggled up to her. We both did not sleep good and I know part of the problem was because I was snuggled up to her, which made us both hot. I feel bad about this now, but at the time it felt good. 
There are things that she does that I want to talk to her about but I am scared to because I do not want to fight I want her to be with me. The texting when we are together does bother me. Her not wearing her wedding band, I want to ask why, but I am also scared of the reply. I thought about writting a letter and just laying it all out there, but I am also scared of pushing her away. I feel at times maybe I should have started the 180 when it was suggested but I feel like things I am doing are helping and don't want to go backwards. She says she wants to work on our marriage, but at times I still feel like it maybe one sided. She does things that make me feel like she is trying, but then she does things that make me feel like she could care less if I am around or not. 
This weekend while she was gone. I spent time with my kids and enjoyed that. Sunday I got up and cleaned house and washed the sheets. She asked Saturday night what I was doing Sunday and I told her cleaning. She did not say much about that. When she got home she did not say much about how the house looked, which I guess she should not have to, but I was kind of hoping for a little comment about the house. I even washed our sheets, which I really felt like I would get a comment about that, but nothing. She gave me my fathers day card and I thanked her. She said my fathers day present would be tomorrow. I told her a few weeks ago what I wanted but she does not remember what it was and asked me. I told her I had all I wanted here.


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## unsure823

Well the weekend went ok. I did spend time with my children and had fun. I did have a couple of anxiety attacks that scared me. I had one Friday night during the middle of the night when I woke up and wrote my wife an e-mail that night letting her know what was going and I finally calmed down after about a hour. The other one hit me Saturday after me and the wife talked and I felt like she gave me the cold shoulder. I did talk to her later that night and I had pretty much gotten over the attack, but just talking to her helped me completly get over the attack. I tried not to bother her to much during her trip, because I wanted her to enjoy her trip. 
When she got home from her trip things were ok, but she started texting her best friend and her best friends husband, so we really did not talk much or have much alone time. I understand she was worried about her friend because she had a longer drive to get home, but I want us to have some time after her weekend away. I did not say anything about how I felt to her. The next night when she got home I wanted so bad to ask her why she is not wearing her wedding band, but she has had a few friends get pregnent this year and they all seem to be having problems, so she spent most of the night talking to them. We was sitting on the couch and I did get to rub her feet which I have always done and it felt good. It just feels good anytime I get to touch her or be with her. 
I can not get into a counselor till July 3rd which is bothering me and I have called another one to see if I can get sooner, but he is not returning my calls. I know I am trying to rush things, but I can't help it. I feel like if I don't do something I will lose my family and my anxiety will take over my life. At times it is hard for me to do things because of my anxiety but I push on.My wife thinks that maybe tobacco is not helping with my anxiety. It may not be but I don't know for sure.


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## unsure823

Well this evening was good. I feel the best I have in weeks coming to work. I do not feel like I have any anxiety. My wife friend is having marriage problems still and wife has said something about her moving in with us. I said that was fine. I did not tell my wife but I would her rather her move in with us then us to move to Maryland. I am not sure what it would fix or probelms that may accure when she moves in, but at the time I will take the good part of this disscussion. I figure if she is talking like this then she plans on staying with me for awhile. She wants to quiet her job, which is fine with me. I told my wife her friend could move in and help pay for the house while my wife quiet her job and took care of the kids. Yea I know not the best situation, but like I said it makes me feel like she is coming around and wanting to stay with me.


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## unsure823

Wow!!! When I think things are good I get a big dose of wake up call. Like I said my wife wants to quiet her job and she had another rough day. We texted a little when I got up this afternoon Nd she said she loves me which I get just ever so often from her now instead of all the time when we text. After work she had counseling and I checked Facebook about the time she should be home. Her post talked about how bad a day she had and was glad tomorrow is a new day. I sent her a text asking if she needed a rum when she got home. She said she did not want to come home she wanted to disappear and be alone. I said I understand because we had that talk a few weeks ago. I asked if she wanted to talk to me about it and she said no. She wanted to get away. I asked is she wanted to get away from work or out of state. She said work home and state. First I thought maybe home meant family but I am wondering if it just meant the house. When she got home she went to the bedroom and I asked if she wanted to be alone or for me to be in there. She said just leave me alone. I went to the couch and watched tv. She came out later and started a load of clothes. I went in the room later to get work clothes and asked if she wanted me to dry clothes when they were done. She said yes and I said love you and she just mumbled something. Later on she came out to get water to take her medicine and said we was going to a bar Saturday night if I wanted to. I said that is fine. She went back to bed and went asleep. 

This leads me to another problem. I have stopped drinking because I can't handle my liquor and get mean. How do I handle the bar scene and not drink?

Also I kind of felt like maybe I should have stayed home tonight. I'm not sure what good it would do but I do feel guilty going to work. I also wonder if I stayed home if she would be like what did you think I was going to do hurt me or the kids. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chazmataz3

maybe she just needs time alone,You cant be there all the timetime for her and smother her?You know sometimes when people say they want to run away it doesn't mean they want to ,it means they Feel like that?:scratchhead:


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## unsure823

Very true Chaz. She even said that is just the way she is feeling. I also understand she needs her space and I try to give it to her. I am not texting her all the time asking her where she is or where she is going. I let her talk to her friends and try to leave her alone when she is with her friends. I feel like she is at a point in her life that if she felt smothered she would tell me. Does it really sound like I am smothering her and do you think I need to back off? I don't want to smother her.


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## BrockLanders

Physical activity is the best thing to control anxiety. Also look up rhythmic breathing. Are you certain she is not having an affair? Lots of red flags here.


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## unsure823

I agree lots of red flags but I've done a little poking and have not seen anything to make me think she is having an affair. I know it does not mean a whole lot but I did ask her a few weeks ago and she said no. I am an active person and the physical activity does seem to help some but not as much as being able to talk to my wife when an attack hits. Things seem back to what they were a couple of days ago. It is like yesterday never happened. I'm not going to bring it up to her because I feel like if she wants to talk she will. I also got another I love you text from her today and if you can't tell that means a lot to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

Well tonight she did seem a little distant, but I am not sure why. She did let me lay in bed with her and I did mention last night that I was torn between going to work and staying home. She said what was you going to do by staying home. I agreed and told her I only worked half a night because I was so torn.

I do need some help on a couple of questions Please... I really want to ask her why she is not wearing the wedding band, but I am not sure that is a good idea. Also tonight she asked about us going to the bar Saturday night and if we went if I was going to drink. I told her no that it was not worth it. I know that I could have a couple of drinks and be fine, but my problem is once I start drinking I usually do not stop till I get a buzz going and that is when I get mean. How do I handle the bar scene and not drink?


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## unsure823

Another odd night. We did the usual Friday night routine and had dinner with her parents at a mexican restaurant. We use to always split a pitcher of margaritas until a few weeks ago when I stopped drinking. She has had a rough week and I drove the kids there and she showed up later. I had a pitcher delivered and two glasses. I had texted her about me drinking maybe 1 or 2, but got not response. I think she was on the phone because when she walked in she was on the phone. Anyway she said I was a big boy and had to make that choice on my on. I let it sit there for awhile and finally started to drink a margarita. I drinked 1 and 1/2 and she never said much. When we left I went to a store and she went to a different store. Her parents were there and me and her mom talked a little about what was going on and it opened my eyes a lot. I know probably should not have but the conversation just came up. Later I got home and the wife texted me asking if it was ok if it was ok if she meet a friend for a few drinks. Which I let her know was a little confussing since this person works with her and she is not a person my wife really liked. I said that it was fine and yes it was confusing because she talked about quitting her job and know wants to go out with someone because they are going to have to work a lot together if she stays at her job. Any way we continued to text and I proceded to tell her I knew she was confused about us and probably my drinking. She did say yes and no about both. She said it did bother her about me drinking even though I had only 1 1/2, so I guess that ends all my drinking and the bar will be tough tomorrow night. I also let her know she said the other week we needed to be best friends, but I feel like we can not be because she will not open up to me. She said she has her guard up. I said I have heard that before and felt like I was making progress but also felt like I was at a stale mate about making progress. She said it will take time and if I was not in it for the long run she understood. I told her I am in it for the long run and that I know we both are counfussed and I hoped counseling would help me, because some days I understand her not wanting to be with me, but other days I don't. She just stopped texting, so I don't know if she got with her friend or what.


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## unsure823

Well later that night I texted her to see how she was and she said she was drunk and asked if I was headed that way. I said I was and when I got there my wife and her friend was outside the place since they had closed. They were talking about things and I just sat there and listened. My wife said she knew she had problems and all this was not my fault. I almost went to my knees. I stayed there till almost 3:30 with them talking and me mainly listening. I finally said I was going home because I had to get up early and by that time my wife was able to drive home. The next day was busy for me. I went to help my father in law and then take my boy to a swim party. On the way home I felt my anxiety start to kick in and was kind of quiet when I got home. I got in the shower and started to get dress and my wife knew something was up and I told her my anxiety was trying to kick in. She asked if I needed to stay home and I said no. I finally walked up to her and gave her a hug which made me feel better. I told her that was have always seemed to get into it about the time we start to go out and I think I may have found the problem. It may have been my anxiety.

We had dinner with friends then headed to the bar. I was not going to drink, but she said go ahead and have a couple to relax. I had one drink and was good with that. I did enjoy myself and had a good time. I think my wife did also. We spent the night enjoying good company and hanging out. My wife did disappear for about an hour because her best friend in another state was drunk and outside of her house and my wife wanted her inside her house before she got off the phone with her. I did understand that, but she had friends there that she was hanging out with and having fun with. I thought it was a little rude, but I did not say anything. I checked on her a couple of times, because she went outside to talk on the phone. One time I went out and could not find her, so I called her and she let me know where she was and I asked if she was still on the phone. She said no and I asked if I needed to come over there and she said no she would be inside soon. I watched for her and she did come back in and we enjoyed rest of the night. I feel like things are going good, and as long as things are like this I will probably not ask about her not wearing her wedding ring.

I do have an appointment with a counselor in the morning, so we will see how that goes. Also Tuesday I go back to see the doctor that prescribed me my anxiety medicine and I will let him know how things are and see what he wants to do.


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## unsure823

Well I went to my counselor today and I guess it was ok, just not great. He is having me read the book Feeling Good. I have read the first chapter. Most of the day I felt my anxiety being on edge. I tried to do some things when I got home, but had to stop and go take a shower, because my anxiety was getting to me. My wife came home and we had a long talk tonight. She does not think she can love me like I want her to love me. She says she had her mind made up for months and was just convincing her self to leave until I started trying and my boy broke his arm. She has told me before if she wanted me gone she would have kicked me out by now, but I can't but help think that I should just pack my stuff and leave for her benefit and maybe the kids. I want to change and be a better person, but I have also tried this before to fail. I have not tried the counselor route before, so that is the only thing I can think that will make this work. Yes I am on Effexor, but I feel like my suicidal thoughts maybe coming back, because I don't feel wanted at my own house. I have an appointment with my medical doctor tomorrow, so we will see how that goes.


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## deejov

Unsure,
Is there any connection to going out, trying not to drink, and the anxiety?

Are you trying to stop drinking? Just seems familiar to what my H goes through when he is trying not to drink.


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## unsure823

No I would say most if not all my anxiety is over my relationship with my wife. I am not really trying to stop drinking, but I am trying to keep it under control, which this weekend was pretty easy for me.


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## deejov

These are all your words.

Also tonight she asked about us going to the bar Saturday night and if we went if I was going to drink. I told her no that it was not worth it. I know that I could have a couple of drinks and be fine, but my problem is once I start drinking I usually do not stop till I get a buzz going and that is when I get mean. How do I handle the bar scene and not drink?

Well later that night I texted her to see how she was and she said she was drunk and asked if I was headed that way. I said I was 

We had dinner with friends then headed to the bar. I was not going to drink, but she said go ahead and have a couple to relax. I had one drink and was good with that.

I had texted her about me drinking maybe 1 or 2, but got not response

She said it did bother her about me drinking even though I had only 1 1/2, so I guess that ends all my drinking and the bar will be tough tomorrow night. I also let her know she said the other week we needed to be best friends, but I feel like we can not be because she will not open up to me. She said she has her guard up. I said I have heard that before and felt like I was making progress but also felt like I was at a stale mate about making progress. She said it will take time and if I was not in it for the long run she understood. 

I told her I am in it for the long run and that I know we both are counfussed and I hoped counseling would help me, because some days I understand her not wanting to be with me, but other days I don't.


"having your guard up" is what one does when around a mean drunk. (which you've said you are).

Your post begins with some anxiety... "how do I go out to the bar and not drink".

I'm not trying to be picky at you. I'm trying to helpfully point out the obvious.

If it's not a problem for you, then quit altogether for awhile. Allow yourself some clarity, don't mix it with anxiety meds, and give it time.

Allow yourself the opportunity to learn how to deal with anxiety, without drinking. That's where hope is.


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## Thumper

She's being very honest with you at this point about her feelings. Listen and validate. Keep working on you, cause it's the only thing you can control.

I'll be honest, you still have a chance to save this. It's gonna take a lot of work. If you don't get yourself under control thou your not going anywhere. Check, it's so early in the game, and your already going negative, understandable. 

Find something positive in your life, and focus on that when the anxiety hits. I know it's hard, but start training your mind to go that direction. Don't get down on yourself when it's not happening. Stay positive, stay in control, and as you work on it, it will get easier ans easier.

Grab a book, not a marriage book. Mow the Lawn, pick some weeds. At night write a journal, play a game on your phone, call a friend, or family member and ask them how their day was.

Keep that mind busy. Stay positive, think about what you have to do at work tomorrow, next week, next month.

Good luck and let yourself think it's gonna be ok.


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## unsure823

Thumper, I appreciate the honesty and your reply makes a lot of sense. I do have a journal I have been writing in and it does help some. Also I was having an anxiety attack when I wrote the above and now my anxiety has left so I feel better and your comments really help. 

deejov, You have valid points and I will try the not drinking route again. She said tonight that I seem to be putting a lot of weight on my drinking and she does not seem to think that is the big problem, but I know it is part of the problem. She is afraid that if I don't drink I will be upset, so I guess I will have to show her I can have fun and not drink. I feel like I did that this week end. One drink is not enough to make me drunk and I did have fun, so no drinks should be fine.


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## caladan

I'm with Thumper. You actually aren't doing anything on yourself, all you appear to be doing is waiting on her, waiting for her to make up her mind. I fear you're heading for the point where she's with you out of pity, and not because of any passion.

I'd say - stop. Go out by yourself sometimes. Get a hobby, hit the gym, go hiking, hell go whitewater rafting.

Have fun, and enjoy yourself. This obsession with your wife's next action is unhealthy.


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## unsure823

Caladen you are so correct. I am waiting on her decision. I have told her if she is just here because of the kids and the fear of money then let me know. The problem with me going out and doing things is I have no friends and I have pretty much gave up the hobbies I had because of the money issues we have. I guess the money should not be an excuse because she is spending every dime we have and not trying to watch what she spends. She use to pay the bills and gave them to me awhile back. Since I have seen the money issue I have stopped spending and we are just making it week to week. She knows this but continues to use credit cards when I get them paid down and spends what free cash we have. I am not sure how to come out of this slump of being odsessed with my wife and trying to save this marriage.


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## deejov

Unsure,
There is a marriage.
There is you.
There is her.

If you give yourself your life back, it will most certainly benefit the other (your wife, and your marriage)

Start small. Change what you can.


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## unsure823

I understand what you are saying deejov. The biggest problem I have is the only life I really had before was fishing. It cost money for me to fish and I am scared of spending money because of how tight the money is. I am really considering telling her if there is hope in this marriage that she needs to stop the spending. I am considering asking for her credit cards, so I will be sure the spending stops. She has said for awhile that the spending makes her happy, but it sure puts a hurt on the finances. I really want to get my life back and start enjoying it, just not sure how.


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## unsure823

Well I went to the doctor. He is doubling my dose of effexor and put me on clonazepam for when I have an anxiety attack. We will see how that works and if I am good in 30 days I do not have to see him, but if in 30 days I feel I need to see him I can go back. 

I am beginning to wonder if it is not to late to start the 180 to maybe force her to make a decision. I know medicine and counseling will help but I believe the only solution to my problems is for her to either divorce me or to commit to staying married.


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## Thumper

I highly doubt forcing the issue at this time is gonna give you a result your happy with. Its wayyyyyyy to early in the game to call this either way. Patience grasshopper, patience.

Get control of yourself first, the rest will fall into place. I know it suxxors to deal with, but you'll be unhappy if you forced an issue before its time imho.


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## Nix

You sound a lot like me and my ex sounds a lot like your W. I had my head in the sand trying to deny the seriousness of the situation, and trying to explain away and minimize her betrayal of our partnership. Now my ex is moving 1700 miles away, after several months of mixed signals that I interpreted as her being willing to work on the relationship. She got a job in another city, hid it from me, and then told me that if I intended to follow her, that I'd have to live by myself because she intended to see other people and needed her own place for that. How's that for a wake up call? The reality has not hit me yet but believe me, I will be posting up a storm when that day comes. She is still here and we are amicable but only because I have not exploded yet. I'm still in shock to be honest. Moral of the story: your wife can't be trusted, if she's anything like my ex (and it sounds like she is).


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## Thumper

Im so sorry Nix, that's a real bummer. MLC spouses can be almost impossible to read, take that back, they ARE impossible to read. Wait till the day she snaps out of it, whew, theres not gonna be enough tissue to keep it mopped up. That's what MLC'ers do, run.
Run from you, kids, family, work, and more than not, themselves. Its not healthy trying to figure it out, and this could last another 1-3 years, but it will NOT last forever.

Keep working on you! If you need to write todays date down, so you have a reference of when you can say "I told you so....."


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## deejov

unsure823 said:


> I understand what you are saying deejov. The biggest problem I have is the only life I really had before was fishing. It cost money for me to fish and I am scared of spending money because of how tight the money is. I am really considering telling her if there is hope in this marriage that she needs to stop the spending. I am considering asking for her credit cards, so I will be sure the spending stops. She has said for awhile that the spending makes her happy, but it sure puts a hurt on the finances. I really want to get my life back and start enjoying it, just not sure how.


The fishing story that got away? Excuses. Quit it. Spend some time finding out what you enjoy to do (and doesn't cost money) and give yourself permission to do it. There is whole wide WORLD of things to do!
No, you don't get to blame her for spending and have to "fix" that first before you get to do something for yourself.

It's as silly as google. "50 Fun Free Things to do". 

On the other hand, if she is burying you with spending cut them cards up. Now. Or she gets to pay the bills, period. 

STOP making excuses and putting your life on hold to make her "happy". Bankrupt, no self esteem, and she still wont' be happy. What did I say a few posts ago? You will never reach that goal.
End rant.


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## unsure823

I get your point deejov. I had a great day with my kids. We have been going for bike rides in the afternoon when I get up and I really enjoy that. Maybe I should just start doing bike rides with a group of people. I was really impressed with myself tonight. My daughter is 8 and her room has been a mess for months. I took the time tonight to start picking it up and putting her clothes away instead of being on the floor. When my wife got home I was still helping my daughter and I could her my wife on the phone and I just keep cleaning. After a little while my wife came back to my daughters room and seen us cleaning and said wow. I said hello and gave her a kiss then went back to cleaning. She continued to talk on the phone and once the cleaning was done I found other things to do around the house till she got off the phone. I did not rush to the bed room with her, but did finally sit with her for a little while, because that is where her and the kids where hanging out. After a while the wife had the kids to leave and me and her just chatted and hung out with the dogs. I feel like it was a good time and was good for us. I finally got up and got ready for work and gave her another kiss and we said I love you and I left for work. I guess this goes to show that I do need to find things for me even if it is doing things around the house and not waiting for her when she gets home.

Thumper, that is what I needed to hear. I am sure you can tell I am not very patient with all this, but I have started thinking. She said her counselor knew 6 months ago she was ready to leave and she has spent this long trying to convince her heart to leave, so I figure it will take that long or more to convince her to stay. With that said I have to keep telling myself that and have the patientence to work through all of this.


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## deejov

Awesome! 

What I really liked to hear was you connected with your kids. 

Sorry if I was harsh, unsure. But I think you needed it 

I love riding my bike. I live near a very large natural park filled with bike trails. Oh, I used to. It was washed away in a flood. 

I have a Giant hybrid, part mountain bike and part "old style" ladies bike. It's black and white, I have a pink bell. :smthumbup: I have a smokin' helmet too. I shouldn't take off by myself to ride in isolated areas... but I often do. It's so peaceful. I honestly don't like riding with big groups. I like to go at my own pace, and stop when I want, and I take my camera. It's ME time. I love it!


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## unsure823

deejov, Yea you may have been harsh, but like you said I need it sometimes. The connecting with kids has been some of the issues we have had and I have really been trying to connect with them and I have really started to enjoy them. I think that is one of the big problems she has. Is that I have started to connect with the kids and she worries about how they will act if we divorce. I figure if she sees what me and the kids are doing and having fun without her, hopefully she will start to join us and be part of the family again. If she don't then atleast I have connected with my kids and know that I am being a good father to them.


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## deejov

" I think that is one of the big problems she has".....she is worried about how they will act if you divorce?

Maybe she thinks that. She can, if she wants to. You are their father, and your own unique relationship with them is not hers. She can't spoil that with negative thinking  

And yes, sometimes when you just give in to enjoying life it sparks your partner to do the same. Leading by example. 

Glad to hear you are enjoying your kids. I think men make better "fun" parents.


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## unsure823

Another great day with the kids. I cut grass this afternoon then went on a bike ride with them. Afterwards we cooked breakfast for dinner. To be honest I probably have never cooked for the kids by myself. The kids helped and had fun. They are looking forward to me cooking again so they can help. I have decided that I will try to start cooking instead of just doing microwave dinners, because they are getting tired of those and so am I. 

The biggest thing about today is I had a thought that came to mind. We leave next week to go to her friends house 12 hours away. I am hoping things go good on the trip but I got to thinking what if we get ready to come home and she says I am staying here with the kids. You can stay or leave. I would want the kids to come home with me, but I am not sure of the rights I have to get the kids to come home with me. I have thought about this some and figure the best thing to do would be to call the police and let them know what is going on and see what they say I can and can not do. Does anyone have any input on this.

I really feel like this may not happen because I do feel like she is trying and being friendly with me. I know what she has said about she is not sure she can love me like I want her to. I feel like maybe a month ago she might have tried this but I really don't think she will. It is just something that crossed my mind.


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## deejov

Unsure,
I was soooo stuck on negative thinking, that when I went to IC, she had me do an hour everyday of affirmations, reading, and training myself to live in today. I really had no idea how much time I spent thinking about how things could go wrong, and I still have to correct myself about repeating past things that make me think negatively.

You have these thoughts. It is what it is. But you can re-train yourself to live more presently, and think positively about the future.
You can google affirmations....

What if you go on this trip, and you all relax and have a good time, and you start to bond. And you and your whole family come back feeling renewed and it's the fresh start you needed? It could go that way, if you think it will 

Cooking with kids is a great way to relax. I spend a lot of time cooking. I avoid processed foods. Any tips for getting a 22 yr old single male interested in cooking? My son is a recent type 1 diabetic newbie, I'm still having issues getting him interested in cooking. Sigh. He'd rather microwave. Or eat what I bring over LOL


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## unsure823

deejov, I am trying to correct my thinking and have started IC and he has me reading the book Feeling Good. It seems like a great book. I just need to sit down and start on some of the exercises. I did catch myself a few times thinking negative today and tried to turn those thoughts around to good thoughts. 
I have considered the thought of this trip being a great trip. I even have told people I feel like this trip could be a turning point in this marriage. The thought was really put in my head by some one and like I said I don't see it happening but just was wondering if it did what rights I had.
As far as getting the husband to cook. I guess that is just something we have to take on when we feel like it. Now that I have cooked with my kids and see how they enjoy helping I want to do more cooking with them. It may have been a little stressful for me at times, but it makes it worth it when you see your kids wanting to help and enjoying the meal.

I just remembered she supposedly has a tattoo appointment when we get back so I don't see her staying away to miss her appointment. She has told me she will only let this one person do her tattoos.


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## unsure823

Well it was another great weekend. Friday night we just hung out at the house and spent time with the kids. On Saturday I went to my in laws to help do some work and spent most of the day there. My wife got her hair cut and done some other things and then came to her parents. I said hello and gave her a kiss then went back to work. She left and asked if I would be home in time to get ready to go out. I said I would. Her parents were watching the kids for the night so we went and had dinner with friends then went dancing. We had a blast and enjoyed the night. She did not text her friend that much during the night, which I was glad. Once home she had a message from her friend that she needed to talk. I took my shower while she got on the phone and when I got out my wife came back in the bedroom and they continued to talk around me. My wifes friend was being really emotional and does not want to be with her husband. My wife was rubbing on me and hugging me during their talk which made me feel great. After the phone call she showered and we went to sleep. My wife and her friend talked again today and my wife is trying to convince her to come back with us when we leave her house. I am torn about this, but would rather have that happen then for us to move up there. We leave Wednesday to her friends house and I am planning on having fun and enjoying this trip.


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## unsure823

What a shock!!! I got up Monday afternoon and my wife was walking in the bedroom. I asked her if everything was ok. She said good news and bad news. She had been fired from her job because of job cuts. Of course she had been considering quieting so now she gets to leave her work and collect unemployment. So we left a couple days early for our vacation and now we are at her best friends house. Things have been ok till yesterday when we talked on the phone and she did not say I love you before getting off the phone. We have always said I love you before getting off the phone. Then when she got back I gave her a kiss and said I love you and again she did not say I love you. This got my anxiety going and she knew it. I finally called her to the back bedroom to have a talk and she let me know she did not need me to be all touchy and feely with her. I felt like this was the one thing that keep more thinking I had a chance. It feels like she is constantly trying to push more farther away from her. She says we are in the same house and room and I should be happy for that. Which I guess I am but it feels like this is all becoming one sided. I know she has said this will take time, but sometimes I feel like I need something from her to show that she is trying. I have gave her every oppurtunity to let me know if she wants to divorce me, but she will not say it so I am totally confused. Some times I feel like just filling for divorce and getting this over with, but I don't want to lose her and the kids.


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## Suspecting

I have to admit this story is a bit confusing. Why are you talking with your wife on the phone if you're in the same house/room? Are you staying at her friends and her husbands home?


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## deejov

Unsure,
Are you able to try listening to her actions, and not her words?

The words I love you are pointless, if spoken out of habit and there is no meaning to them.

What do her actions say?
Think about it.

ETA
My H says it all the time. It means nothing to me. His actions do not say he loves me. That is what is important.


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## unsure823

We are staying at her friends and husbands house. My wife and her friend went to the store and she had a question about what to get so she called. I do agree that the words I love you are just words if there is no action to back them up and that is the reason I sometimes think about a divorce but then this morning she was the one that kissed me and said I love u first which makes me think there is hope. She has told me if she wanted me gone I would have been kicked out a long time ago. This I believe but it is hard for me to believe that she wants me as a husband sometimes maybe a best friend but not a husband. I have tried today to not be so touchy and geeky and have seen her make the first move to kiss me a couple of times which feels great so maybe if I do back off some she will make more actions to prove to me she wants me around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov

Just keep observing her actions. 

Best friend and being in love kinda go together. It's nicer when you love your best friend. 

She's got a new start. No more terrible job, and you are on vacation together. Enjoy her willingness to show you love.


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## Suspecting

I'd guess the atmosphere is a bit awkward in the house if the friend is divorcing and she is leaving with you and your wife?


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## unsure823

My wives best friend has not filed for divorce but she is considering it. I feel like they are in the same boat as me and my wife but her husband is not trying to make things better. He has screened at his wife and kids a few times since we got here so I could see his wife coming back with us but who knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

Well my wives best friend told her husband a couple of days ago she wanted a divorce. They had a long talk and he left for a little while. We all went to the pool and got to talking then my wife said she wanted a divorce. I could stay at the house and we could be best friends. She wants one of us to move out of the bed room into my sons room. My son would move upstairs into the bonus room. She says we seem to have more fun as best friends and that we have been getting along better since we have been trying to best friends. We would raise the kids and see where things go from there. She is not saying if we would be together in a few years or if we would go or seperate ways. She said that we could possibly be back in the same room on some days. She says she feels like marriage puts to much stress on us and she likes us being friends. Granted I do like us being friends and we do seem to be getting along together better, but I do not like us being in seperate rooms. She said I could either do this or we could divorce and I could move out. She just wants a divorce and she does not want any of my money or retirement. 

We have since left her best friends house and her best friend and 2 kids has came back to our house for a week. The oldest of the 2 kids is suppose to be staying with us for a couple of more weeks once her best friends goes home. Her best friend was going to stay with us but she feels like her husband is going to look for any excuse to fight for the kids so she will be going home this weekend. I found out that they had it setup where she would stay with us and get a job, so my wife could stay home and take care of all the children while me and her best friend worked and paid for everything. I know this all is weird but I feel like it would have been pretty cool to have my wife stay home to take care of the children. I kind of feel like I am on the show three's company at the moment.


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## Suspecting

So you sleep on the couch and the best friends sleep in the bedroom?


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## Machiavelli

About the only way you're going to get any hope is to get serious about busting open your wife's affair. There may not be one, but it's highly unlikely. You need some VARs around the house and under her driver's seat. Check the phone and the phone call records for repeat numbers. Put a tail on her when she goes out. If you aren't willing to do it, you're sunk.

Her and her best friend are feeding each other and both are probably in affairs.


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## unsure823

We are all sleeping in the same bed. My wife is in the middle. I found out a lot last night, but not sure I am willing to tell everyone till I know more of where I fit in on what is going on. I hope to talk more with my wife today.
Machiavelli I do know what my wife and her best friend have going on and they know I know, so I do not need to do any of the things you mentioned. I am not sure when I will tell everyone on here what is going on, but I plan to when I know more.

I can say my marriage is over but my wife wants us to be best friends and live in the same house and raise our kids. She does not have another guy and feels like the past month has been the greatest we have been in a long time.


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## caladan

Does it work for you? Can you handle it? If you think it can, go for it.

I do agree that it's an unusual arrangement, but - happy parents make happy kids.


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## unsure823

Well I want get to talk to my wife today. She found out that the lawsuit will go to trill first of next year and she went to bed. I figure she will be in there all day and night. The things that have happened the past couple of days is hard to comprehend. I kind of thought my wife and her best friend might have something going on and last night my wife started messing with me and I was not sure how to take it but then she started messing with her best friend. My wife asked if I was ok with it and all so asked her best friend was ok. We both agreed and one thing lead to another. This morning they talked because I was not sure where I really fit into this picture then they called me into the bedroom. It happened again but now I asked her best friend about it and she is not sure it should happen again. I fully understand where she is coming from. I am not sure what will happen the next few days she is here but I know my wife wants to be with her best friend and would like for me to live in the house. I think I could handle that if I was included but if I am shut out of the bedroom and just basically here for the kids and to help around the house I am not sure I can stay. Yes I know this is all screwy but it is the true facts of what is going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

So you're wife want to have an open marriage with another woman in the same bed. You've witnessed and participated in it. It seems unreal to you. Does the other woman have feelings for you? Is your wife jealous?

Mach was right as usual but not in the way we expected.


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## unsure823

I don't think my wife is jealous since she indicated all of it. This is where I get confused I am not sure if they want me included or if this is just a thing to keep me around. I do not know how the best friend feels considering I have known her for years. I would not say it seems unreal but just confused as to wear I fit in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Could be you are the hetero cover piece, but do people care that much these days?

This was infidelity. Seems they have been at it awhile and have been trying to decide how bring you into it.


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## unsure823

I don't think they have been at it to long since they are 3 states apart. I asked when it started and it was about a month ago when they meet half for the weekend. I think they had the thoughts for awhile but could not hook up. I am not sure if they meant to include me because her best friend said she had no idea it was going to happen last night. I feel like my wife wants to keep me involved but I am not sure about her best friend. Yea I did think about it while ago that it was infidelity and wonder if my wife would through it in my face but I did not take lead in any way because I was not sure how much they wanted me involved. I do know my wife sure enjoyed it and I think her friend did to but I think she wants my wife for herself and me to be more of a handy man and a dad to the kids instead of someone in bed with them. It will be awhile before things really get worked out because her friend lives in a state where you have to live seperate for a year before you can get divorced and I'm not sure how quick she would try to move in with us. All I can do is take the good days as they come and enjoy my wife and kids. I have no control over this situation unless I file for divorce and move out which is not something I want to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Honestly I don't think they included you to keep you around.
Me thinks that they are just kinky like that.

Honestly, I don't know how id like it either.
I mean, I would be all up for it during the moment but not sure how i'd feel the morning after.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

A lot of guys fantasize about this stuff but when happens and your family is a stake it must be disconcerting to say the least. If you can stand it for awhile, you may be able to figure out what is going on. But if the other woman is primarily interested in your wife, then there is competition.

Don't know what you should do to be honest.


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## deejov

Are you concerned at all about the best friend's husband??


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## unsure823

Deejov I would be concerned about him if I was not so sure they are getting a divorce, but like I said she told him before we left that she wanted a divorce and I seen how he treated her when we were out there and he is a jerk. He was yelling at the kids and yelled at her in a store for no reason. He has never really treated her how she deserves to be treated, not that I am perfect but he is just a jerk to her.


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## deejov

Now that she is living in your house, you are about to find out if she is a shrew \ b!tch, and that is why he is a jerk.

You are stepping smack into the middle of WWIII. And so are your kids.

A jerk would come over and throttle you for banging his wife, since they are not yet divorced, legally. Did you HEAR her tell him she wanted a divorce? I'm betting she just blinsided him. And will have no problem telling him she slept with you and your wife.

Oh boy.


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## unsure823

I did hear her say she wanted a divorce to him. I have know them both for years and know she is not a *****. Yes he could very well beat me up or worst if he finds out but I know she want say anything because it will give him fuel during their divorce. Maybe I am stepping into WWIII. But I am so confused and want to keep my family together. This is where I always get into trouble for being such a nice guy. If I was not so nice I might have stopped all of this long ago when she started hiding things if I would have forced my wife to stop hiding them. I guess as the saying goes nice guys finish last.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS

One thing led to another... Congrats, now you are no better than your cheating wife. I weep for your kids.

I think your marriage is toast and that you will need to figure out what to do with the rest of your life. I have no idea why in the hell you agreed with any of this crap going on in your home in the first place.


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## caladan

Plan 9 from OS said:


> One thing led to another... Congrats, now you are no better than your cheating wife. I weep for your kids.
> 
> I think your marriage is toast and that you will need to figure out what to do with the rest of your life. I have no idea why in the hell you agreed with any of this crap going on in your home in the first place.


Forgive me - but how is this cheating? How is he no better? His wife invited him.

I beg to differ....


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## Plan 9 from OS

caladan said:


> Forgive me - but how is this cheating? How is he no better? His wife invited him.
> 
> I beg to differ....


Here is why. The OP is upset over his wife having an affair. It ends up being a lesbian affair her best friend. Now that he found out, he could have taken the correct path and insisted that it all stopped and that he, his wife and kids become a real family again. Instead, he gets sucked into a 2FM threesome, and he's basically OK with it so long as he can join in regularly. With kids involved, this is a dysfunctional situation. That makes the OP no better than his spouse, because neither are looking out for the best interest of this family.

Seriously, who in the world would change their tune so quickly about their wife having an affair with a guy/gal just because the BS gets invited to have some fun too? That's fvcked up.


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## unsure823

Ok. I do take a little blame for not making matters any better then they were. I have talked to my wife some today and I asked her how she felt about her and her best friend being together. She says a few weeks ago she would have said that she wanted to be with her best friend, now she is saying that she wants to be with me. She has seen that I can be a better person and likes me now that I am not a total *******. I know this does not make things better as far as what has happened over the past few days, but I feel like me and the wife can work on things and still see where things go. Her best friend has not moved in with us, she is just her till the end of the week and I am sure things will change when she leaves and maybe let me and the wife figure out what we have. Maybe it can be just us, but I do see her best friend getting divorced, because she was suppose to be contacting a lawyer today to see what her legal rights are for her kids. I am sure once divorce papers are filled she will more than likely be coming back to this town that we live in. She may even be moving in with us then and I do not know what will happen then, but I hope by then me and my wife will have a handle on things and be able to manage what ever situation comes about. Maybe I should not have got involved with the threesome, but it happened and there is nothing I can do to change that. I understand this is all not normal and maybe weird to many, but I also feel each situation is different and some people handle them better than others. 
I do have my kids in mind or I would not still be here. With the things that have been going on I feel most guys would already have divorce papers drawn up and maybe even moved out, but I am fighting to keep my wife and kids in my life. If you have not read the entire post on this I would advise reading it to see how things have been in my life lately. I agree it does not make things right, but I have been so confused over things that I did not know what to do or where to turn. My wife is at counseling at the time and I have a counseling apointment set for Monday. Yes I said earlier my marriage was over, but I am not sure where things are going now since my wife has said that she wants to be with me and not her best friend. When I made the statement about my marriage being over I felt like she just wanted her best friend to be with her, but now I am not sure. Her best friend is just her till Sunday, so I will see how things go after she leaves. 
Maybe I have made some mistakes during all of this and maybe my wife and her best friend has made mistakes, but like I said it was mutual and we all will have to live with the mistakes and decide on where things go from here. I feel like I do not have much control over what happens if she wants her best friend instead of me, unless I just divorce her and move out, which I really do not want to do. I know it might be wierd but I would be willing to live in the house with my wife and her best friend if we got divorced, because my wife is my best friend and I would still be around my kids. I am not saying it would work, but I would probably give it a try. We are all friends and I think we understand each other and enjoy spending time together.
I am not really sure I ever said I was made at my wife because she was having an affair with her friend. I just said the marriage was over because my wife had already stated she wanted a divorce and for me to move in another bedroom, which was said before her best friend came home with us.


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## deejov

It happened. So now what, right?

I have a tough question for you.
It would be kinda obvious, to you, if your wife was not familiar with what was going on. Or her best friend. If they were newbies... or just decided to try adding you to the mix. Does that make any sense without being TMI?

Many posters have thought your wife was having an affair, for quite awhile. 

The whole thing smells like a big huge setup. I'm kinda impressed. They came up with a really good cake eating offer. 

yes, I do think you are settling for some 3rd hand cake crumbs, but in time you may think differently. Or, it may turn out to be the right situation for all of you. 

The only roadblocks are obvious. 
Do you have a plan B?


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## unsure823

deejov,

I am not sure what you are asking. I think they are farely newbies to this. I believe they have only done it once or twice by themselves unless they are not telling all. They have only had one weekend where they were alone to be able to do this. I know my wife went to her house for a weekend, but I know the kids where around and her husband was there so I don't think they could have pulled it off much then.
I do understand there are some roadblocks that I know of and I am not sure how I will handle them when they come along, but I guess I will deal with them as they come. I do not have a plan B so to say because I am still trying hard to save my marriage even though she has said she wants a divorce, but then today she said she wants me and not her best friend. I really think she does not know what she wants and all i can do is continue to try and hope she choices me over her best friend.
There was a conversation about her husband trying to pertition for her to keep the kids in the state she lives in now and she said we would know by Tuesday, which I did not ask about but plan to ask my wife when I can get her alone sometime.


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## LongWalk

Unsure, you are doing the best you can. It is ridiculous for people to say that you are just another cheater. You were blindsided by the same sex angle. Probably you wife also feels confused by her feelings for the OW. Does she say she has a gay or bi self that was repressed or is this a discovery? Is she in love with her friend? In love with lesbian sex novelty?

You don't especially want the other woman. Very good that you know what you want. You say that you would even stick around if you divorced your wife because you like being together as parents. That is not so conventional but so what? Only problem is you may have a weird situation when dating.

You take your hot ONS back and in the morning while the coffee drips you introduce your new honey to the ex and her new partner.

You will be the new ideal for many as the family is deconstructed.

Also, the OW potential custody battle could be sheer héll. If it starts to absorb your wife's attention, that is a very bad sign for your marriage and the mental health of your family.


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## unsure823

Longwalk, that is the catch. I would stay in the same house and me and the wife would not be dating other people. This is an agreement we have made. She says she does not want another man and I don't want another woman. We have talked about that if we ever felt that we wanted someone else we would let the other know before we started the search. I told my wife if she started the search I would leave the house because I could not handle that.
I do agree that the OW divorce battle could be hell and could consume my wife and lead to problems, but that is a chance I have to take.


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## LongWalk

unsure823 said:


> Longwalk, that is the catch. I would stay in the same house and me and the wife would not be dating other people. This is an agreement we have made. She says she does not want another man and I don't want another woman. We have talked about that if we ever felt that we wanted someone else we would let the other know before we started the search. I told my wife if she started the search I would leave the house because I could not handle that.
> I do agree that the OW divorce battle could be hell and could consume my wife and lead to problems, but that is a chance I have to take.


Sounds good in theory but if the other woman is in the house and trying to get your wife in bed, how is going to resist?

If you live in a platonic relationship, your marriage won't be much of marriage. But you could do it while working yourselves and dating.


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## r0r0bin

You mean you had a threesome with them?


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## unsure823

We all 3 went out dancing last night and had a decent time. My wife got drunk and I had to babysit her which is new considering I am usually the drunk. She did seem to be around her best friend a lot hinging and kissing and acting more than just friends. I asked my wife today is she wanted me her best friend or what. I got no reply. Then me and her best friend talked some and I asked her where she thought her and my wife were and she said she knows they are beat friends. Which leads me to think my wife is maybe playing both of us and does not want to lose either one of us. My wife did tell me tomorrow things could return to normal after her friend left but I wonder if this is the old normal or the normal where I do not k ow what kind of mood my wife is in each day.

The other problem is the anxiety. The littlest things can set it off a d it drives me nuts. I hate taking medicine but know if I don't I will lose my wife and kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

"I know my wife went to her house for a weekend, but I know the kids where around and her husband was there so I don't think they could have pulled it off much then." 
Unless the husband was in it too!!! Sorta a "parting gift"....one for him and one for you!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thumper

Heres the usual problem with fantasy stuff. Its so exotic and daring that it becomes the new normal. On the other hand the trust becomes so broken that it can NEVER be the same again. Its usually the later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

Well Unsure I can honestly say that I have a lot of experience in relationships that you are embarking on for over a decade my friends have been somewhat out there so I have a lot of them who are polyamourous, open relationships, swingers and quartet committed. So I say this in having a experience in seeing how these things play out and what becomes of them. I have read your thread so I am going to point out some things for you to consider.

1. You seem to forgive her infidelity with the OW because it is a women. This is a personal choice but it does led into the fact that if you were to fix you marriage she can then go see other OW after she is done with the friend. So this would need to be addressed.

2. Those that are in these relationships and can make it work for a few years all have one thing in common. Honesty and openness. In fact they all had set times per week that they would sit down to discuss all their feelings and how things were going as well as schedule individual time for each couple. You don't have this because it is not a healthy one I will summarize at the end.

3. The OW is not okay with you being part of it because she does NOT love you. She loves your wife, what she is trying to do is court your wife into loving her and leaving you everything else she is doing is to make your WIFE happy. Your wife wanted to have a threesome the OW did not but went along with it to try to continue to win your wife over to her side.

4. Don't count on this manifesting as more than it was a few times because although the OW went along with it this time she will not continue to. Instead she is more than likely going to work harder at sabotaging your marriage.

5. Your wife is a cheater. Sorry but that is a fact, in the polyamourous and open relationships they came to the other spouse BEFORE things went physical and talked it out. This is respect something your wife has not shown you but then you have so little for yourself that you might have missed this. Even swingers talk before hand so that they do not hurt their spouse. Instead of this respect she has felt justified to betray your love, Your trust. Your kids. Her vows.

6. She has faced no consequences to change her behavior because you are scared to do anything. She has her AP live with you and you are okay with it. You reassure her not matter how much she betrays you and hurts you that you will always be friends. She actively sleeps with her AP in YOUR bed without you and you just go on your way. You are not acting like a partner instead you are acting like a pet. You give all control and power to her in every post you say I can't do anything, it is all up to her. There is no accepting of power or responsibility you stopped standing up for yourself. Yet again in these types of relationships I have found that a hallmark for a working relationship is healthy self confidence and strength. You lack these both. Making this a cheating situation.

7. You say the OW will be leaving in a few day but that she will be back to live with you. That you hope that you will be on better footing then. Well let me tell you no matter what you get after she leaves once she comes back you are sunk. The destruction of this relationship is already almost complete. You won't stand up for yourself. You don't respect yourself. You don't trust your wife. You are not getting honest answers from her on what she wants to do. She does not look at what she is doing as cheating. You enable her cheating as with a as long as you are happy. She faces no consequences for her actions for hurting you or breaking any of your love, trust, vows. You willingly give her all the control.

8. Respect is a hallmark of every good relationship. Your marriage lacks it and your are choosing to do nothing to get it back.


Now lets look at a summary. You are not looking starting a multipartner relationship because you lack all the precursors of one. So if you think that will work out you are mistaken. You are not going to get to share them both as the OW is actively courting your wife. You have given up all control because you are scared to do anything. In fact you have allowed her selfish wants and desires to almost completely destroy your marriage because of your fear. 

Step to take if you want to get better

1. Face your fear of losing her. Your marriage is already sinking and you are standing around crying that it is instead of picking up a bucket and bailing water. Only when you face the very real possibility of losing the marriage as it currently is are you going to make progress.

2. Your wife is cheating. You need to face this fact and be NOT okay with it.

3. Friends do NOT rip the heart out of friends. Your wife is not acting like your friends instead she is acting like a selfish 4 year old who feel justified to hurt who she wants when she wants for her own gratification. You are enabling this by always telling her you will continue to be friends. If your kid was being beaten every day and called names and when confronted he told you that it was okay because it was his friend that was hurting him what would you say? Yeah now do you see until she starts acting like your friend you need to get some distance.

4. Focus on what is right for your kids. Do you think it is even close to healthy for them to have a mom engaged in dismantling their lives and inflicting massive damage to their dad? Do you think the scars, insecurity, and self confidence you have lost in because of her is going to go away easily? You will honestly be dealing with this for years. Is that what you want for your kids. Better to have two single parents living apart than the dysfunction you are in now.

5. Read No More Mr Nice Guy. 

I wish you luck at some time you are going to have to step up and be the hero of your own story. I think this will get a lot worse before you do that tho.


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## unsure823

CEL..... You are so right. We had discussed her being with other men and women and how I would fell about it. I did tell her another man was not ok and if it was another woman I was not sure how I would fell. I have been thinking about this and if I found out she had been with multiple women I would probable not be ok with it. I do put up with her and her friend because I feel like it could possible work, but you may be correct in that it would not work, because I see her friend as saying this may not always happen and that she does seem to be driving a wedge between me and my wife. 
I have been told by a few people that my wife has become selfish and every thing she does it for her and not me or the kids.Also you are correct that if my kids came home and told me their friend was hurting them and said it was ok I would say it is not ok. I am hoping when the OW leaves me and the wife can have a long talk and figure some things out and get some answers from her that let me know where she thinks things are going. 
I have lost a lot of self confidence in all of this, but I feel I am gaining some of it back, because I have people telling me how good of a guy I am and I realize I am not as bad as I thought I was when all of this started. I even feel like my wife maybe realizing this and starting to chose my side and not wanted to be with her best friend. I know this is all confusing but I still feel like head way is being made in my marriage and hope to get more answers soon. I have told myself that nice guys finish last, which makes me realize that maybe I need to gain some strength and push my wife to make her decisions now and stop dragging them out. I just need to get the nerve to do this. 
All of what you said makes perfect since and I can see that what you say is true and I do need to do somethings different and hope I can get the nerve to do that soon, before this destroys me.


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## CEL

Good for you the first step is always to admit that what you are doing is not working. You actually have not done to bad you have gotten her around to at least saying she wants to be with you. Now lets look at some practicalities of the situation. My first post was kind of to summarize the situation and that some of your expectations are not realistic this will be on how to fix where you are at and some tactics.

1. Stop allowing the sleeping in the same room. Yeah this is right what you need to do is stand up BEFORE she leaves you sit them both down and tell them what your wife is doing is cheating on you and you will not have it under your roof that it is abusive to you and cruel. Tell them both it will no longer be happening and if it continues they can expect you to take appropriate action. Up to and including taking the bed out and burning it or telling the her husband so he can file under Adultery. This is to get back some self esteem for you. This is your home and your bed whatever you do don't leave the home.

2. Outline for you wife two outcomes of her actions these are realistic unlike your previous posts. A: you get divorced, split the assets. joint custody of the kids, you will remarry the kids will have step mom, you will no longer be friends she will be on her own the only help you will give her is directly for the kids. No more fun friendship times, no more emotional support, no more helping with the house, no more I love yous. This is realistic view of it you will co parent but that is as far as you will go. You may think you can do more but you will not be able to. You will see her out screwing other people and this will kill you inside and stop your own life from continuing. Every therapist will tell you once you divorce you need to detach and that is what all of us will be helping you do. The end result is that you will NOT be friends. This is a consequence for her actions she cannot knife you in the back and say lets be friends "I am sure Ceasar thought Brutus was his friend too". B: you BOTH commit to the relationship 100% you work on meeting each others emotional needs and read the books His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters and 5 Steps to Romantic Love "that's a workbook". And you agree on MC. In this scenario you raise your children in a loving home and you continue to be best friends. However for this to work she MUST go NO CONTACT with the friend. And here is why if you let her continue this friendship she may say she has broken it off but it really will be an Emotional Affair that her friend will always be pushing to go to Physical Affair. And it will be physical again as soon as she gets back. The first step is her going NO CONTACT until you have that you have no marriage.

3. Now if she refuses to decide here is what you do. You go to Plan B What Are Plan A and Plan B? also in the book Surviving an Affair. This means you cut all contact with her. You only engage her with talks about the kids or finances. As long as she is with the women any progress you think you make is false it is build on sand. You can try to fool yourself but this is a cardinal rule for these situations. As long as the women is there and in her life NO PROGRESS will be made. 

4. Next you expose to EVERYONE. Parents, OW's husband, kids the whole thing this is to force her to face the consequences of her actions. This works on the shared moral groundwork we all share as part of society. Basically it is a shaming of a person in modern society. Many don't want to do this understand she is in a fog right now thinking she will face NO consequences until she does she will continue to act like a child.


The basic of this is that until you are wiling to lose the marriage you will not WIN the marriage. Read the books starting with Surviving an Affair, Love Busters then His Needs Her Needs. You need to REALLY REALLY get the fact that right now she is a pod person and NOT your friend. Keep posting we can help you but only if you continue with the dialogue and are wiling to at least try some of the advice.


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## unsure823

I am going to be honest in all of this as I have been honest all along. The OW is only her for one more night, so I am not going to sit them down and have the end all conversation tonight. I know trying to have this conversation tonight will start many problems for us and all the kids are here and I do not want them to hear what is going on. 
After she leaves tomorrow I do plan to talk to my wife and hopefully get her to commit to our marriage or to say it is over. I agree this should have been done long time ago, but I think I had to stick around to prove some things to her before I could force her to make a commitment one way or the other. 
As far as exposing her actions to everyone I feel I have not been much better then her in that I was involved in the 3 way and I will be exposed also. I do love my wife and it would be hard for me to expose her wrong doings because I care so much for her. 
I know most if not all of this is pretty much the opposite of what you are saying, but I am being honest and I feel things have to be handled certain ways in certain situations. If you go back to the begginning of all this, there was suggestions made and I knew if I did them where things would lead and I did not do them. This does not mean I have won my marriage back, but I do feel that my marriage would be over now and my kids maybe in another state with my wife. I will take all the input I can get and take it into considereration and use the suggestions that I think will work in my situation.


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## CEL

I have said it before and I will say it again this is not a how to forum. We are not in your situation so take what you like and leave the rest. Let us know how tomorrow goes. What are you going to do about tonight? Do they get to have good bye sex in your bed?


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## unsure823

We have all 3 been in the same bed every night since she got here. The only day that I know of anything happening was when I was involved. I do not see them doing anything tonight since the are both a sleep on the couch while I finish watching a movies with the kids. When she got here I felt like we are all adults and could sleep in the same bed clothed and behave but that was before I knew what they had going on. I know the OW does not want to go home but has an appointment with an attorney Tuesday to find out her rights about a divorce. My wife thinks her husband may petition her to keep the kids in the same state which may be a good thing for my marriage but could also be bad because they will be apart longer. I know some way they will be in the same town if not the same house. If the same house that is where I really have to make my decision on what I will put up with before I leave. I have learned this week that the OW youngest kid put a lot of anxiety on me and if for not that I might could be around her kids more. Granted we are all friends and I love my wife and care for her friend but I feel like things may go to far one day and I will make my decision to leave. A person can only take so much. I know my wife and the OW can raise all the kids fine but the kids still need a father figure in there life but that can be hard if they women have a relationship with me in the house which will push me out and I would only be a father figure to my kids. If the OW moved in with no relationship to my wife I could be a father figure to her kids because I care about her and her kids. We have all known each other for almost 20 years and have had great times and I realized this week how much I missed those times but like I said a person can only take so much. I will continue to update as things happen because this is probably like a soap opera to some but it is my life that I am really living at this time. I do go see my counselor again Monday which could be interesting considering I am not going to hide anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli

Women will bring other women in for threesomes with high rank males. This is a known fact since the beginning of time. It's like your kitten bringing you a mouse. But it happens for very high ranked males. In this case, your wife's GF is tolerating your presence in the mix to assuage your wife's misgivings about busting up her family. I take it you did not actually fook the GF, the other night?

If you did nail the GF, then she's willing to do anything and proved it to get with your wife. Since you aren't ready to force the issue and your Plan A seems to be to ride the tsunami, you need to start asserting yourself as Lord of the Harem, rather than a Delta male trying to hang on to the only woman who would be willing to have sex with him. So you need to bone up on how to introduce alpha traits into your interactions with your new harem. It's a long shot, but you never know.

Do outside women hit on you?


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## CEL

Ummm well the OW is not your friend she is trying to get your wife to leave you for her. Does that sound like a friend? You are still considering continuing to be okay with your wife and you staying friends with her? So your wife will promise it will never go that far again and that will be worth more than her vows were?


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## unsure823

I did finally get to talk to my wife alone today. She says that her and her friend are in the same spot in there life. They feel that both of us guys have not tried hard to keep the wives around and now I am trying and she does not understand why now. The other husband does not seem to be trying and I think this is why the OW wants a divorce. I told my wife that I could see that they love each other and were not hiding to much when we were at the club the other night. I was worried of what might happen when we got home, but my wife got drunk enough she got sick, so there was nothing happening when we got home. 
I have noticed a change in the OW because she us to let me hug here when she started crying and when I knew she felt bad, but now she seems to distant me. She has told me she is sorry, but will not say for what. I think she does feel like she is hurting my relationship with my wife and feels bad about that, but that is my thoughts. 
The OW left today, but came back because she did not feel good and went to sleep in the bed with me. We did not do anything and I did not try anything. The only reason I was sleeping was because I work nights and I had not worked in a couple of weeks, so I was pretty much back on a day schedule, so I needed sleep before I worked tonight. 
My wife was the one that suggested we sleep in the same bed, but I am not sure why. My wife stayed up with the kids, so she could keep them quiet and let us sleep. Now I am at work and my wife and the OW are at home, which does make me wonder what is going on. I do plan to ask my wife if anything happend tonight when I get a chance to talk to her. I know I may not should trust my wife, but in a way I do. 
@ Machiavelli I have never really had women hit on me. I am the shy type and never really flirt with women even when I was single. Heck I did not start dating till I was 21. 
I know my biggest problem is being the nice guy and I need to change that to force some issues to change in my marriage, but I keep thinking just a few more weeks. I felt like this vacation would change things either for good or bad, but I can not say it changed much either good or bad. Yes I did allow all of this to happen and did participate in it, which was probably wrong, but it has been done and I can not change that. 
I know this seems weird but I could see us all living in the same house and raising the four kids, but only if my wife would be my wife again and the OW lived upstairs and stayed out of out marriage. I am not sure that could happen but I might be willing to give it a shot if it comes to that. I feel like the day I get kicked out of my own bedroom will be the day I will change from a nice guy and force some issues. 
Like I have said I am being honest in all of this and do consider what is being said and the more that is said gives me more strength to change from being the nice guy. I just hope I can make that change before things go to far.
Like I said I have a counselor meeting tomorrow and hope he can give me some insite on all of this and even more strength to man up.


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## unsure823

WOW!!! It is amazing what 5 minutes in your life can change. I was going to get on here and give an update and let everyone know how I was feeling. I had asked the wife today if she still wanted her best friend to move in with us if she was able to leave the state she lives in with her kids and she said IDK and could we talk about that later. I said that we could and left it at that. I told my wife I would be checking on her friend since I am worried about her and my wife said that was fine, just don't be talking to her about us or my wife and her. I said I would not and would just be checking on her. I do not have want to cheat on my wife with her best friend I just care for her like a good friend. I know everyone says she is not my friend, but I can't help but worry about her. Then tonight my wife text me something. It was " When I tell you I Love You I don't say it out of habit or to make conversation. I say it to remind you that YOU ARE the Best Thing that Ever Happened to me." Then she said this is where I want to get back to with you...do you think it's possible. I told her I believe it is possible and I would love for that to happen. Then she called me and we had a great conversation. She is really wanting to stay home and not work, because she feels like her working puts a lot of stress on our relationship and our family. I agreed, but she is worried about the finance part of our life. I told her we would just have to make some cuts and live a little different life style. We could not travel and would have to start enjoying things we have in our town to do. She is worried about the kids since we have always bought for them, which I told her we would just have to cut back on them and then we would all start to enjoy the things we have more and not take them for granted since we have always bought things we wanted. So I guess today was a good day. Her friend made it back home safe and I feel like I am still getting my wife back a little at a time. I know I may be going about this all the wrong way that most people think and against the odds, but I feel like it is working, so I will continue to do what I have been doing. Mostly doing things with my children and enjoying time with them and basically treating my wife like a girlfriend that I am dating. Which the dating part I think is what was really missing in our relationship and she sees that I am trying to fix that.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

unsure823 said:


> WOW!!! It is amazing what 5 minutes in your life can change. I was going to get on here and give an update and let everyone know how I was feeling. I had asked the wife today if she still wanted her best friend to move in with us if she was able to leave the state she lives in with her kids and she said IDK and could we talk about that later. I said that we could and left it at that. I told my wife I would be checking on her friend since I am worried about her and my wife said that was fine, just don't be talking to her about us or my wife and her. I said I would not and would just be checking on her. I do not have want to cheat on my wife with her best friend I just care for her like a good friend. I know everyone says she is not my friend, but I can't help but worry about her. Then tonight my wife text me something. It was " When I tell you I Love You I don't say it out of habit or to make conversation. I say it to remind you that YOU ARE the Best Thing that Ever Happened to me." Then she said this is where I want to get back to with you...do you think it's possible. I told her I believe it is possible and I would love for that to happen. Then she called me and we had a great conversation. She is really wanting to stay home and not work, because she feels like her working puts a lot of stress on our relationship and our family. I agreed, but she is worried about the finance part of our life. I told her we would just have to make some cuts and live a little different life style. We could not travel and would have to start enjoying things we have in our town to do. She is worried about the kids since we have always bought for them, which I told her we would just have to cut back on them and then we would all start to enjoy the things we have more and not take them for granted since we have always bought things we wanted. So I guess today was a good day. Her friend made it back home safe and I feel like I am still getting my wife back a little at a time. I know I may be going about this all the wrong way that most people think and against the odds, but I feel like it is working, so I will continue to do what I have been doing. Mostly doing things with my children and enjoying time with them and basically treating my wife like a girlfriend that I am dating. Which the dating part I think is what was really missing in our relationship and she sees that I am trying to fix that.


You know what?
I truly hope you get what you want and everything works out for you the way you hope it does


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## CEL

So she has an affair. With your long time friend. And you continue to be friends with with the affair partner. And you reward your wife with becoming a stay at home mom.....

I hope it works for you but I got nothing, good luck.


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## caladan

This isn't going to end well. She's about to throw you out, and you're letting her stop work. 

Hello alimony.

I'm still fascinated about you Unsure - you don't appear to have any self-confidence whatsoever. Why not simply leave the marriage and find someone else? Because unfortunately, after all this happens, you WILL end up outside this marriage. You've totally given up the initiative, you've become like some weird sort of pet. You're hanging around for scraps, and she knows this. 

I'm with CEL here - I can't even relate to this at all, and if I want to be brutally honest, I fail to see how your wife would even be interested in staying with you after this. Where's the mystery, where's the backbone? Where's the man in all this?


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## nogutsnoglory

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


caladan said:


> This isn't going to end well. She's about to throw you out, and you're letting her stop work.
> 
> Hello alimony.
> 
> I'm still fascinated about you Unsure - you don't appear to have any self-confidence whatsoever. Why not simply leave the marriage and find someone else? Because unfortunately, after all this happens, you WILL end up outside this marriage. You've totally given up the initiative, you've become like some weird sort of pet. You're hanging around for scraps, and she knows this.
> 
> I'm with CEL here - I can't even relate to this at all, and if I want to be brutally honest, I fail to see how your wife would even be interested in staying with you after this. Where's the mystery, where's the backbone? Where's the man in all this?


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## Machiavelli

unsure823 said:


> @ Machiavelli I have never really had women hit on me. I am the shy type and never really flirt with women even when I was single. Heck I did not start dating till I was 21.


Shyness is not the whole story. Enough physical presence and they'll come to you.

If you're going to try to stick this out, it's possible, but you don't really have the usual tools. Women, unlike men, have a high degree of sexual fluidity.  You need to treat your wife's girlfriend just like an OM, and drive her away, unless you can bring her into your harem as a member. That's highly unlikely for you, since you don't have the personality or the physique for it.

Have you ever read "Married Man Sex Life Primer?" If not, download it and read it tonight. Don't let your wife know you're reading this stuff. It will explain how you got here.

Did you read any of those links I posted?

What's your physique like? Do you workout?


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## unsure823

All right another update even though it does not fit with what everyone is saying. Me and the wife talked again tonight and she is going back to work, because we both relise our finances will not let her be an at home mom. She is scared that if she goes back to work that we will fall into the same routine and be back at this point again one day. So we will both have to work to make sure we do not get into the same routine and fall back into the same situation we are in. 
I did notice tonight she has her wedding band on again, which makes me feel great but also reminds me that this is not completely over and we have work to do. 
As far as any of the links that have been listed here for reading. I have not read any of the books, because my counselor has me reading Feeling Good and doing assignements in that book to change the way I look and think about things. 
I would say that I am not a hot guy by no means. I am 170 lbs and 6'0". I do not work out. I was weighing at 205 when all of this started and decided I wanted to lose some of the weight and just started watching what I eat and when I get full I stop eating. My wife did say tonight that she likes me at this weight more then she did at 205. 
I know most of you think she is going to through me out and she may do it, but I feel like she is trying to work on this relationship like me and we are making things better. 
As far as her friend, yes I am still her friend and worry about her. We have not talked about what happened this past week and not sure it will ever be brought up, because I feel like it was a one time thing for me and I am not sure how my wife feels about her friend. I do know she cares about her friend, but I think my wife sees that things can be a lot worst, because she sees how her friends husband is and how some of her other friends husbands are, because we know a few people getting divorced.


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## nogutsnoglory

unsure823 said:


> All right another update even though it does not fit with what everyone is saying. Me and the wife talked again tonight and she is going back to work, because we both relise our finances will not let her be an at home mom. She is scared that if she goes back to work that we will fall into the same routine and be back at this point again one day. So we will both have to work to make sure we do not get into the same routine and fall back into the same situation we are in.
> I did notice tonight she has her wedding band on again, which makes me feel great but also reminds me that this is not completely over and we have work to do.
> As far as any of the links that have been listed here for reading. I have not read any of the books, because my counselor has me reading Feeling Good and doing assignements in that book to change the way I look and think about things.
> I would say that I am not a hot guy by no means. I am 170 lbs and 6'0". I do not work out. I was weighing at 205 when all of this started and decided I wanted to lose some of the weight and just started watching what I eat and when I get full I stop eating. My wife did say tonight that she likes me at this weight more then she did at 205.
> I know most of you think she is going to through me out and she may do it, but I feel like she is trying to work on this relationship like me and we are making things better.
> As far as her friend, yes I am still her friend and worry about her. We have not talked about what happened this past week and not sure it will ever be brought up, because I feel like it was a one time thing for me and I am not sure how my wife feels about her friend. I do know she cares about her friend, but I think my wife sees that things can be a lot worst, because she sees how her friends husband is and how some of her other friends husbands are, because we know a few people getting divorced.


I wish you the best of luck. I think your wife has showed she puts more importance on her than you. You have allowed her to do this. She essentially has walked on your marriage and you are allowing the game to be completely played by her rules. 
She will eventually get bored IMO. Woman need a man with some strength, and I hope your counseling teaches you how to obtain it.


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## unsure823

Well after a long conversation tonight, my wife has decided that she is done messing with her best friend. She has chose to work on our marriage and not be with her best friend any more. My wife forwarded a text she sent to her best friend and then her best friend tried to call my wife, but was not able to get a hold of her so she called me. She asked me what was going on. I told her that me and the wife was going to work on our marriage and it is a work in progress. I am not sure how she felt about this, because all she would tell me was that she needed to talk to my wife. Then my wife called her and me and the best friend got off the phone. I sent my wife a text and told her to call me when she got off the phone with her best friend, so hopefully she will and I will get some details of what was talked about. My wife did tell me that her best friend felt like she could not move into our house if me and the wife was working on our marriage, which is fine with me. Also my wife said she knew that if her best friend moved in that I would not be able to stay in the house because it would bother me to much, which is correct. My wife asked me if I would fight for her and I said I would, so I may have a fight on my hand between my wives best friend, but if that is what it takes I will do it. I want my wife and kids in my life and I think I am proving that to my wife.


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## Tobyboy

You do know that in order to get your marriage back in order, you and your wife need to put 100% into it? And, she needs to cut all ties with her bf, you too, for reconcilation to have a chance!!


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## unsure823

I do know that we need to put 100% into our marriage to be saved. I am not sure how the wife and best friend will be after all this, but I do know my wife has said that she knows she has been spending to much time talking to her and being with her, so I feel like that will change and hopefully will get to the point where my wife spends that time with me.


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## LongWalk

Machiavelli, who is pretty expert, strongly recommends working out on weights. Can't hurt to be more muscular. Inject something new into the bedroom to block out the excitement of lesbian sex.

As to feeling sorry for her best friend, well, your wife doesn't want to help her friend at any cost. She would not want you to give BF solo sexual comforting while she deals with divorce.

Your wife has to be honest with you and herself. If she is not primarily heterosexual, she must admit rather than subject you and herself to living a lie.


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## tulsy

Your wife has been having a long emotional affair with her "best friend". It eventually became a physical affair, and you were included one time, but there were other times without you. That makes your wife a cheater, and her "best friend" is not a friend of your marriage.

You sound so naive it's incredible. I am not trying to hurt your feelings, but you also come off as rather pathetic. These are not desirable traits, and you need to seriously man the fawk up. It's extremely unattractive....if anything, you should be angry with your wife and what she has done behind your back, not crying, blaming yourself, and doing all the heavy-lifting.

Your wife has all kinds of secrets she has been keeping from you. Right now she is throwing you a bone and stringing you along, but you can't trust her...she may have a secret agenda that you don't really know about yet. She wants you to fight for her, but you don't even know if you will win her in the end.

I would sit her down, fawk the counselor, and ask her to come clean with you....she owes you that. Try to get to the bottom of what actually happening here.

I don't think you can trust her right now, and you definitely should not trust that "best friend"....she's been having the EA and PA with your wife.


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## nogutsnoglory

unsure823 said:


> I do know that we need to put 100% into our marriage to be saved. *given the history of this if **she is to give 100% to you she must give 0% to the OW.* *She has treated her like a partner not a friend, they **cant go back to "just being friends. I am not sure how the **wife and best friend will be after all this(you need to **dictate how they will be, which is over and done with), *but I do know my wife has said that she knows she has been spending to much time talking to her and being with her, so I feel like that will change and hopefully will get to the point where my wife spends that time with me.*If not then what?* *Show strength, she even asked if you would fight for her,** she asked as a way of letting you know you need to , **her friend will certainly fight for her and you need to **win that fight, so start by telling your wife to go with no **contact and tell her friend to back the hell off, you have a marriage to save. Show them who is boss or they once again **will show you.[/*QUOTE]


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## unsure823

I did not get to talk to the wife after her best friend conversation, because it was so late, but I am talking with best friend now and she has said she is going to back off, which we will see how much. I know she is going through tough times and has a lot to deal with and my wife is pretty much her support group, so I understand some commmunication, but hope to keep it to a mininum.


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## nogutsnoglory

unsure823 said:


> I did not get to talk to the wife after her best friend conversation, because it was so late, but I am talking with best friend now and she has said she is going to back off, which we will see how much. I know she is going through tough times and has a lot to deal with and my wife is pretty much her support group, so I understand some commmunication, but hope to keep it to a mininum.


You are screwed if you keep this up. You have to stop acting like one of the girls. You need to hold a bit of resentment for their relationship and aid in the creating of distance. You talking to her etc... Cut it out. Are you not listening to all the people on here. Tell her to get a therapist to talk to and stop calling the house all the time. Tell your wife to grow up and act like a married woman. It seems the more you tell us the more you are getting involved in the friendship and acting like her support group. You are not her dad, BF, or H, you are the man she tried to take his wife from. She is willing to use you because she knows it allows her inside the marriage. You need to put her outside of the marriage. If a dog sleeps on your bed and does not learn to sleep on the floor then you soon have a dog that sleeps outside. Put the bit** outside.


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## caladan

You know, my gut feeling here is that this thread is a wind up. You haven't taken any of the advice we've given you, you just come here and post, and post, and post. Your posts show no movement from you, no progress whatsoever, the only person in your posts showing any leadership, any initiative, any sense of purpose is... your wife. 

Here's my verdict (now I could well be wrong, but I sincerely doubt it) - your marriage is pretty much like mine at the moment - dead. Oh don't get me wrong, the paper still exists and all that, but in the end you're a flat-mate, a mutual owner of joint property (finances and kids). A stop gap. If her friend doesn't step up, sooner or later some other dude with decent money is going to come into the picture because there's obviously a power vacuum that you're unable and UNWILLING (I say this based on the fact that some of the best players on here have given you some of the best advice ever and you appear to have totally ignored it).

Here's my advice: Grow a pair. Fawk (cheers Tulsy) whatever she tells you, fawk getting carried away with anything she says. Hit the gym. Stir up your career. Make stuff happen for you. Get into the 180, make a list of attributes you want in a wife (at the moment you're taking whatever you're given). Show some initiative, set down some rules that need to be followed if this is going to work. Move out of this weird wishy-washy position of indecision you currently reside at, and move to a position of authority and decision making. Take the initiative man, that's what we do.


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## unsure823

caladan, You maybe right that my marriage is over and you are correct that I have not taken any of the advice that has been given to me. Things have changed for what I thing are for the good. My wife is wearing her wedding band and has decided to give our marriage another shot, with her being 100% in. She is fading away from her friend. She even had a call from her today and told her she needed to cook dinner and get things done and would call her back later. She never called her back and even told me she is trying to distant herself from her friend so that she can work on our marriage. Yes I still need to grow a set and stop her from spending the money she spends and I hope to do that with do time, now that I know she is commited to our marriage again. We are talking everyday about our marriage and where we both stand in this relationship and things that we need to work on. I feel like we both are working on this and we both know we have to work on this to make it work. I feel like the wishy-washy maybe behind me, because she made up her mind, yes not because I forced it, but maybe because I did things to make her see what she has and she realizes things could be worst. I understand this is still a long road and I do need to do things and force some issues that I hope to when I grow that pair. I have never been the type to try to make some one mad or start subjects that I know will cause arguments, but I am beginning to feel that we are getting to the point where we do not argue and we can talk about things, so I hope to start more conversations about what I want her to do to keep me around. 
I keep telling my wife now that I have lost some weight I want to bulk up, so maybe that would be the easiest first step for me to take and see how she handles that. I am not talking about bulking up to the point I look huge just add some muscle to the parts of my body that could use it and not look like it is just fat carried around on my body.
I hope all of this makes sense and everyone really feels like I just need to stop posting I will because I have enough problems in my life with out having a bunch of people I don't know jumping all over me for things they tell me to do and I do not do them considering I feel my marriage is a little different. I was hoping this was a place I could vent a little and get some ideas, which is what I have gotten for the most part.


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## tulsy

unsure823 said:


> ... I have enough problems in my life with out having a bunch of people I don't know jumping all over me for things they tell me to do and I do not do them considering I feel my marriage is a little different. I was hoping this was a place I could vent a little and get some ideas, which is what I have gotten for the most part.


The people here at TAM have more experience than you could possibly imagine, good and bad. They have experienced it....they have been there....they have read through and followed through pages of trickle-truth....you will not always get the answer you were looking for, but you will definitely get some great advice.

You were lucky to find this place. Listen to what these people have to say to you. Swallow your pride and realize they are here to help you. Everyone loves a happy ending, and believe it or not, these strangers hope that everything works out for you.

Hang in there and continue to vent. Incite is coming, it's your choice to use it or not...either way, you'll learn that you are not alone.


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## LongWalk

Unsure,

Don't take things too personally.
For the most part people mean well. You should feel free to speak up if you think someone is disrespectful.


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## unsure823

Ok I appreciate the replies. I know some of the suggestions on here I really need to do, but like I said they are hard for me to do, because of the type of person I am. I read some of the replies again last night and had pretty much made up my mind I was going to talk to the wife about her best friend and where I stood on it. The problem is before I left for work last night she talked to her best friend and her and her husband are wanting to move back to town and the best way for them to do that is for her to post for a job at her old work and get that job and go ahead and move back into town with us, since they will still have a house payment in the other state and can not afford for her to rent and the house payment. I made the mistake last night and said she could post for her job at her old work and move in with us and that I could be ok with it. I realized last night that I may not be ok with it and had decided to tell the wife, but by the time I got to talk to her tonight her friend had posted for the job, so now I feel like I am really screwed. I guess like a lot of people have said on here the longer I let things go the deeper I get into this and the worst it is getting.

My counselor is not really doing a lot for my confidence he is more of a counselor that uses continute thinking, spelling is probably wrong, but what he tries to do is make you take your bad thoughts and turn them into good thoughts. Which I could use a little of, but I am not sure how to take all this going on in my life and turn it into something good. 

My wife keeps telling me she wants this marriage to work and is enjoying our time as being friends and is not ready for sex. She did say last weekend she was ready, but things never progressed and now she is telling me she likes us being friends and enjoys the fun we are having together. Which I enjoy the time also, but feel like sex is the one last step that needs to be made for a true commitment from her.


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## LongWalk

> My wife keeps telling me she wants this marriage to work and is enjoying our time as being friends and is not ready for sex. She did say last weekend she was ready, but things never progressed and now she is telling me she likes us being friends and enjoys the fun we are having together. Which I enjoy the time also, but feel like sex is the one last step that needs to be made for a true commitment from her.


Turnera, a savvy poster wrote something like "men need sex to feel a connection and women need a connection to want sex."

Machiavelli and others recommend all sorts of books to get men into a more alpha position. He is a good mentor.


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## CEL

So the other husband has no idea his wife is courting your wife and cheating on him? Or that you screwed his wife? You are not getting sex but she is happy being friends. Your needs go unmet while she gets all the benefits of having you there. Oh and her affair partner is moving back into town. 

You are a man with a blow torch setting for to your house while we are all screaming at you to put the torch down. What we get in response is that it is hard for you. Do you think it is easy for anyone? We do not live in a world of rainbows and bunnies and we cannot help you if you don't even follow ONE persons advice.

I workout sometimes I help others they want to lose weight many tell me after I tell them what they need to do "I can't do that it is too hard". Well then they really do not value their goal. Your actions are damaging your marriage and yet you refuse to change them. What ate you willing to do to save your marriage?


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## unsure823

CEL,

This is the problem I have I guess I think things are getting better, but everyone tells me to do certain things to change my marriage. I maybe wrong about things getting better. My wife may still just want to be friends and not married to me. I agree it is not easy for anyone. I have seen a few marriages fall apart this year and I am hoping to keep mine from falling apart. Things have went from her throwing me out of the bedroom to me getting to stay in the bedroom. She is wearing her wedding band again and we are friends and having fun. I guess what is hard for me is I do not want to lose that part, but I also don't want to lose my marriage. I am afraid if I do some of the things listed here I will lose my friendship with her and possibly my marriage. Like I said I feel like things are getting better, but I sometimes I feel like my marriage is at a stale mate. I guess my plan from here is to maybe go back through all of this and start reading some of the books. Like I said I feel like my counselor is not really helping my marriage, he is just helping my mind to think better thoughts instead of bad thoughts. Honestly at this point in my marriage what is the book I should start reading. I know there has been many list in this thread, but I am not sure where to start. I know I have been told to start the 180, but should I really start that knowing that things seem to be better between me and the wife?


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## LongWalk

CEL said:


> I workout sometimes I help others they want to lose weight many tell me after I tell them what they need to do "I can't do that it is too hard". Well then they really do not value their goal. Your actions are damaging your marriage and yet you refuse to change them. What are you willing to do to save your marriage?


People ask me how they can get fit. But they aren't willing to do it. No pain, no gain. It's simple. The personal trainer thing is all about paying money to have someone kick your butt cause you can't do it yourself.

There are so many different sports clubs. They'll take anyone and help them, but the people helping hate listening to the life story, I a want to get shape, I am trying starting next week, blah, blah. Suffer man and grow. They people who are good will see the pain and help.

Unsure,

Whatever the books are the key is becoming self confident. If you know who you are and know where you stand your wife will be more attracted to you.


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## unsure823

Longwalk, I'm not sure by what you mean "If you know who you are and know where you stand your wife will be more attracted to you."

I did confront her this morning about her friend coming to pick her daughter up this weekend. I usually work Sunday night through Thursday night, but just found out last night I have to work Friday night, so that means my wife and her friend will be here two nights alone. I told her I was putting a lot of trust in them that nothing would happen and she promised me nothing would. I sure hope so because I feel like with my wife committing back to our marriage that them doing something may just push me over the limit. 
I know that her friend should probably not be at the house, but this is better than the two meeting again some where to swap the children and having a weekend alone. At least they are at the house where I can keep a little eye on things. They were suppose to meet at a cabin, but the cabin got booked so the friend is coming here.


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## Tobyboy

VAR the bedroom!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

So she going to be alone with her affair partner and you are okay with this? She made plans to spend time with your friend who is trying to sleep with your wife and you are good? she has already broken her vows but you think a promise is going to stop her? Oh and you still have not even told her husband that you screwed his wife along with the small fact that his wife is screwing yours and courting her.

You say things have changed and you are right she had put in her ring she is talking about fixing your marriage. All good but get actions are different she is making plans to met her affair partner. She is withholding sex she treats you as a friend.

We recommended some books have you looked at them? We recommended NC with the affair partner but you still buy into the fact that she is your friend as ludicrous as that is. We recommended the 180 but you are afraid she will leave you. We recommended exposure to the husband but then that would damage your friendship with the affair partner. All these actions have repercussions right now your marriage is in massive trouble so let me turn this on YOU what is your plan?


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## unsure823

I guess that is my biggest problem is that I don't have a plan. I have got in so deep on this that I do not know where to fix it. I am at work at the moment and my wife and her friend or at my house. There was no way for me to get out of working tonight or tomorrow night or I would have, because it is tearing me up to be here and knowing they are together. I guess in reallity this thread has probable come to a close, because I do not see me getting the nerve up to break all of this up. I know that is the only way I will probably save my marriage, but I also figure if my wife is not happy with me then why should I be with her. If she is happier with her friend then they need to be together. I guess in reallity I am just riding this twister out till it crashes and I know I will have nobody to blame but myself. I guess when things come crashing down the husband will find out what all really happened and I will have to deal with it, because yes I did wrong to him. I do appreciate the thoughts and comments in this thread and do realize that most of if not all of you meant nothing but good suggestions and want the best to happen, but as I see it this is all coming down and I will never be man enough to stop it. My wife has told me I am different in that I need more affection then most women, which I know and is probably part of the problem with me being married. I am to nice of a guy and that is just the way I was raised. My parents raised me right and treated me with respect, but we never had the affection that I now see in other families and guess I may never get that. I am taking my anxiety medication, but it can only help so much and I just feel like this is the end of me trying to do anything but ride this coaster till it crashes and burns. Sorry for taking up the space and time on this forum, but it is a great forum and I know there are a lot of great people on here that have helped a lot of people, but I guess I am just one of the few people that maybe to hard headed to take advice and run with it. Thanks again to all.


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## LongWalk

Tobyboy said:


> VAR the bedroom!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:


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## LongWalk

> Longwalk, I'm not sure by what you mean "If you know who you are and know where you stand your wife will be more attracted to you."


Women are attracted by men who are confident and know what they want. Too much relationship discussion often just makes things worse. Through your body language and actions you communicate with your wife as much or more than through words.

If you tell your wife that her friendship with other woman must end, your wife will know where you stand. She may choose that relationship and a lesbian identity – something that she is debating inside – or she will feel that you are her real love.

Your wife is also messing with trouble. Her friend's divorce will mean trouble. If you get divorced, there's more trouble. Does she and that relationship have the strength to survive? She probably would answer that she is uncertain. That is why she is keeping you on a plan B.

If you withdraw your emotional support for the affair, she will have to face reality.

Get a Sony VAR and but it under the bed. If you hear them going at it, you may have an easier time deciding that:

1) You want out
2) Confronting your wife to bust up the affair


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## unsure823

Longwalk, thanks for explaining that. I very well may have to get a VAR because now my wife's best friend is more than likely to be moving in with us in the next week or so, because she is supposed to be getting her old job back and her husband will probably be staying in the other state till there house sales. I have been told the lesbian affair is other but to be honest I still have my doubts and with me working nights that leaves a lot of open time for them to have time together.


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## LongWalk

a VAR from Amazon (Sony Digital Flash Voice Recorder (ICD-PX312) .


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## unsure823

Thanks Long Walk. I may have to get a couple of them considering I feel like I need to cover my bedroom and the bedroom her best friend is suppose to be staying in when she moves her. I just found out tonight that the girl she went to see awhile back that is married to her x boyfriend from way back is a lesbian and has a girlfriend. My wife seems to be braking contact with her, but the husband is good with her being a lesbian and having girlfriends, so that maybe where this whole idea started. I have asked my wife many times if she did anything while she was with her and she says no but I kind of have my doubts. Man there are so many things I have learned lately and hope I can get my life straight.


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## LongWalk

As Mach says female sexuality is more fluid, so lesbian games may not be the end of the world. But the lies, that is too much. If you VAR and find out stuff, never reveal how you know. The VAR must remain secret.


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## unsure823

Trust me I would never reveal how I know, because then she would be all over the place looking for them and trying to turn them off, so I can not find out other information.


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## caladan

Hey Unsure.

I'm going to ask a question, and I want you to think long and hard about it.

What are you going to do with the information you get from your VAR? 

I mean, most people here expect that if your VAR reveals that your wife is still in an affair, you'd leave her, which is why they're asking you to get a VAR.

You and I know better. You won't leave. At the very worst, she'll cry for a day or two and promise you she'll do better, and you'll come here and post that you're making "progress" and that things are going to work out.

Most likely, she'll kick you out for invading her privacy, and you'll end up blaming us for giving you the advice, and then you'll go back and beg. You'll justify your begging as being "because of who I am".

Bottom line - save your money. Hit the gym, buy a self-help book. This excuse of not being able to do anything because of "who I am" is just that - an excuse. People can, and do change who they are, this site is full of stories of guys who chose to and followed through with their decisions to stop being a doormat. It's hard work, and it's a long, emotional journey, but it has a destination. 

But there's an easier way - you can sit where you are, do nothing, and hope against hope that the person who has lied repeatedly to you is telling the truth this time. And who knows, you just might be right.

The amateur psychologist in me feels you've developed a form of Stockholm syndrome, and have started to defend and admire your agressor - possibly because it's difficult to accept that you're a doormat, possibly because it requires less work, who knows.

I wish you the very best of luck going forward.


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## unsure823

caladan, you are correct that I do not know what I would do with the information on a VAR because like you said I am not that type person. I want out of this situation right now so bad I wish I had the courage to really make a move to force some issues. The problem is I don't have the nerve to make the moves that need to be made at this time. Shoot to be honest I have considered to just deserting everything and living on the street, which I know does not help me or anyone. Like I said way back I have even considered suicide, but know that will leave my kids with no money, because insurance does not pay out for suicide. I have dropped my counseling, because I feel like it was not going anywhere. I am at work tonight, but do not see me staying long considering my anxiety is in overload. I have taken half a pill to calm my anxiety, but feel like it is not doing much and know if I take another half it just makes me sleepy and know I should not be in my line of work after taking another half of a pile. I am just hoping I can stay long enough to make a shift out of it and be able to drive home with out doing something stupid. I feel like all the stress of having the OW move in with her two kids has hit home and all the work that needs to be done at the house is really stressing me out. My kids are exited and being hyper which does not help my anxiety and I am really afraid where all of this is going. I guess at this point I am really worried about myself more than anything. I am at the point where I could care less about my marriage, but worry about my kids. I am also at the point where I feel like I could say screw all of this and just disappear into another life and let my wife do what ever she feels like doing. Like I have said before I appreciate all the support on this forum and I am glad I found it, but I know it is all on me to follow through with some things to change my life before it ends.


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## caladan

Okay, now we're talking.

Have you joined a gym yet? I can't afford to join a gym (no time), so I wake up early and run some miles. The workout calms me down, and releases dopamine into my brain. This helped me, it might help you too.

When my marriage was going down the dumps, I also stayed at work for long hours. I couldn't bear to go home. It all came to a head one day when I sat on the sidewalk down the road from my house dreading facing my wife. I understand how you feel my brother believe me. Baby steps. This is what makes all the difference. One morning I just woke up and I ran. Barefoot. I just ran. When I got tired, I stopped and walked, then I ran again. Then walked again. It seemed to take forever (about two hours) but it was just 4 miles. When I felt better, I went back home. The fear was still there, the dread, the sinking feeling. The creeping despair. It was still there. BUT... for some reason, it didn't matter as much as it did before. So I ran two days later. And then again, and again. I processed a lot of stuff while running (well, mostly during the walks while resting). It helped.

Now in the end, my marriage ended - I was unable to handle being the second choice. But - Iwas able to handle the fallout, and best of all, I was able to make the decision to leave. 

What doesn't make sense to me is doing nothing because of "who I am". That's a disaster waiting to happen.


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## LongWalk

Unsure, the VAR is important to give you information about the situation. You must take responsibility for your children. Run and hit the gym. Force yourself to laugh out loud at the ridiculous pain. You can even do this around your wife. Don't tell her just smile.

Hang on there. Get the VAR so that you are not out of the loop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

I probably will not get the VAR's because of the money. I am really short on money even though I have sold my boat finally. I have my Blazer for sale now and hopefully it will sale soon. I don't plan on joining a gym, but I keep telling my self that I can do sit ups and pushups when I first get up. I figure do as many as I can and then the next day try to add one more. My best time to think is while riding bikes. I have been riding bikes a lot with my children lately and I enjoy that with them and I get time to think. We usually ride for an hour and my wife usually does not go, because she has an inplant that does not let her ride bikes. The OW will be here next Tuesday with her two children which will change a lot of things at the house and may be the big thing that pushes me over the edge. I did leave work early last night and believe if I had not been in a company vehicle I may have drove south a few hours to my cousins house just to get away. The worst part about the drive home last night was I had suicide thoughts in my head along with all of the other thoughts. I plan to go see a doctor tomorrow to see if he will change my medicine or want me to see a psychologist. I really don't like having the suicide thoughts, but this is probably the third time they have come up since all this started and I know if they keep coming up that one day I am possible going to do something. I know last night was a rough one for me and makes me realize I have to have my medicine and I can not play around not taking it. I know the next time I feel they way I did last night before I leave the house I will just go ahead and take off so I can take a full dose and hopefully not have all those crazy thoughts in my head.


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## LongWalk

There is a new post by a guy whose wife is discovering her bi self and wants to have relationships. You should check it out.


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## unsure823

Longwalk,
I have read that post and see it does really pertain to what I am going through. Here is where things stand. The OW has moved in with her two kids and things seem to be going good. The OW still says she wants a divorce from her husband. He is still 700 miles away trying to get there house sold before he moves back to our town. I am working nights, so I do not know what is going on after I leave for work, but I have my doubts anything is going on since my wife takes her medicine before I leave for work and it usually kicks in by the time I leave. My wife is usually a sleep when I leave. The three of us have been together again and my wife has told me this will not happen unless we are together. When she said that she had that serious look on her face like she meant business, so I feel comfortable with things. I understand this type of relationship does not usually work out for the married couple, but I feel comfortable in it and like the way things are going. I feel me and the wife need to sit down and talk about where we want this to go. If we want her to stay with us are if we plan on her finding someone else one day and leaving us. I understand that is her decision but I feel me and the wife need to talk about it. It would not bother me for her to stay and us all live happily together. I do understand that is a gamble, but I am willing to take this gamble, because I love my wife and do feel like we are all close friends. 
I do understand the husband has a lot to do with this, but he is not really much effort to try to keep his wife. He was hanging out with his friends when she was still there and not trying to get things ready to sale the house and not helping her do things around the house. He has not really taken time with his kids, kind of like I was, but he is not changing and his wife keeps saying she wants him to stay 700 miles away and she will file for divorce once she lives in this state long enough to file.


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## CEL

You better hope your azz of that the husband is not the jealous type or violent. LOL. You are sittin on a powder keg smoking a cig.

Man my hopes are with you they truly are.  good luck brother sincerely thanks for the update.


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## unsure823

LOL. I debated posting at all but felt like everyone deserved an update. I do wonder how his reaction will be and I guess my hope is he never finds out what is going on, but I do worry about it. Thanks for the well wish CEL.


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## CEL

No worries man. Listen I may not agree with what is going on but really not my life. And I don't want nothing bad to happen I really do have only good wishes for you. I understand other lifestyles so no judgement from me just hopes that you and the women find happiness. Good luck man keep your head up


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## LongWalk

I understand how you can feel reluctant to post. It took me a long while before I felt comfortable posting about my problems. There are things that people do not want to discuss before they are ready. However, by discussing things, they are less frightening.

Your situation is not unique but it is less common and most TAM posters will not find the pat answers a perfect fit. I don't believe your wife and her lover can keep their hands off each other when you are not there; that would be too much for them to resist. Still, your wife wants you to be part of her emotional life. Just what part exactly you cannot know. Indeed, does she herself know?

And what of her friend? If the shyte hits the fan with her ex-to-be, the two women may look to you to be the alpha males to protect them. Or the other woman who is into your wife may not want you around once her husband is history. A reader can have no way of judging what is going on here.

Also, do you feel that you and the other woman will have some sort of emotional involvement? How will your wife deal with it?

Anyway, glad to hear that you are not rashly feeling the deep depression anymore. You should still to do the VAR to learn the truth. However, even if you hear them declaring love for each other, it may not be the whole picture. Why should your wife reveal what she really feels for you to OW?


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## unsure823

I do feel like I have an emotional attachment to the OW. I am not sure if she feels the same. Monday night when I left for work it did not feel right just saying goodnight to her. Then Tuesday night my wife made a comment about me no hugging the OW or kissing her on the forehead so I did. The OW made a joke about me doing it after being told to. I sent my wife a text after I left asking if it was ok if I kissed the OW on the forehead and hugged her when I left and she said that was fine so tonight I did and the OW seemed to appreciate me doing that. The OW does keep saying she will grow old alone and we keep telling her she will not. Me and the wife have talked and are both fine with her staying with us. We still don't know the OW game plan after her divorce but she did tell her husband not to come to town this weekend. I feel the longer she stays away from him the more she wants a divorce. 
The biggest problem I can't get out of my head is that I'm not doing things around the house. I'm sleeping during the day and my wife is taking care of things. I am cutting grass and doing handyman things but not cleaning. Hopefully my wife does not think I am lazy because I am not by no means. The OW says I'm good because I am doing thins but I still worry. I did tell my wife before the OW moved in that I was worried about being replaced by the OW and she said not to worry. Easier said than done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

This week might tell a lot how things will go. If my wife is being honest and she will only be with OW with me. Not to often but sometimes I have to travel for work and this week is one of them. I feel like they will have plenty of time to be together if they wish. I guess now I kind of wish I had a VAR. The worst part is I'm not gone a few hours and my wife changes her Facebook profile picture to a picture of her and the OW. I almost want to ask my wife why but don't want her thinking things while I'm gone. It also kicked my anxiety in but I have a lot of driving to do and can't take my anxiety medicine because it makes me sleepy. I guess I mainly I'm posting tonight because I have no one to vent to and need to vent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

OW and W love each other. Your wife loves you, too. OW likes or tolerates you. If you have sex with her, then her affection for you may grow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

You are probably correct that they love each other. I feel like the OW cares for me. I felt like when I left I got more of a goodbye from her than my wife. My wife was on her laptop and just gave me a peck on the lips and a small hug. The OW I kissed on the forehead and she gave me a big hug. My wife seemed to not show much emotion but the OW seemed to show a little. Now I don't want to be with OW I want my wife. We had another friend stay the weekend because her and her husband ate having problems. The woman that is living with us slept in the same bed with me and the wife and nothing happened. My wife even snuggled up to me a couple of times which felt great so I guess I am still confused and feel the wife and me need to talk about where all of this is going.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keepin-my-head-up

It is going to AWESOME LAND!
Enjoy the ride.

Awesome if you are open to an unconventional marriage that is..


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## LongWalk

OW is being affectionate because she needs to be on your good side. Your wife is cake eating — two people are loving her. She likes it. Sex, love, security, new thrills, old reliability. She is not complaining. Is this stable? Stay tuned. 

Most important is you do not feel suicidal. Concentrate on your well being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

Sometimes I do feel suicidal. I feel like if I was out of the picture that my wife and OW would live happily ever after. That may or not be true considering the OW would still have her husband but I feel like it would make it easier for her to leave him if my wife was single. From what I have been told is that me and the OW have told my wife we don't want to be a third wheel. I am getting to sleep in same bed as wife and OW sleeps in another bedroom. It would not surprise me if she is in the same bed while I am out of town. At one time the joke was I could be the pool boy and even though I live there sometimes that is what I feel like. 
What was a little weird is when I left the OW youngest child had a fit when I left. I feel like her children may already be getting use to me as a father figure. I do not want to replace their father by no means but when he did not do much with his children it is easy to see how her children could see me that way. 
I agree this is long from being over and will try to keep everyone up to date.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

unsure823 said:


> Sometimes I do feel suicidal. I feel like if I was out of the picture that my wife and OW would live happily ever after. That may or not be true considering the OW would still have her husband but I feel like it would make it easier for her to leave him if my wife was single. From what I have been told is that me and the OW have told my wife we don't want to be a third wheel. I am getting to sleep in same bed as wife and OW sleeps in another bedroom. It would not surprise me if she is in the same bed while I am out of town. At one time the joke was I could be the pool boy and even though I live there sometimes that is what I feel like.
> What was a little weird is when I left the OW youngest child had a fit when I left. I feel like her children may already be getting use to me as a father figure. I do not want to replace their father by no means but when he did not do much with his children it is easy to see how her children could see me that way.
> I agree this is long from being over and will try to keep everyone up to date.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is good that you can share your feelings. Get the VAR. You will then confirm that they are having sex while you are away. Why would they stop? You have already sanctioned sex when you are around.

Do not think of yourself as being the undesirable obstacle to the happiness of others. Go to the gym and increase your muscle mass. Look at the bright side. Many men fantasize about having a threesome with two women. You are having it. Laugh about this out loud even if it is a sardonic laugh. Laugh because you will feel better.

Suicide would be a betrayal of your children. You cannot do it. Your love for them makes that a zero option.


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## unsure823

I understand most men dream of this but I am not sure most men would want it in this situation. I could get the VAR but it would probably upset me more and I am not the type to do anything about it. Maybe one day but not now. I do understand my kids are first and that is one of the reason for not committing suicide. The other reason is I know insurance will not pay and I'm not going to leave my kids with nothing. I told my wife the other week about these thoughts and she went to the doctor with me and I thought she would say something to the doctor but she never did. I feel like I need help but not sure where to turn I have tried a couple of counselor a but that don't work. I am not in a good mental state.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Too bad you sold your boat. Do you have way to take the kids fishing?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## unsure823

I could manage to get my kids to go fishing with me, but I know it would be hard to go and not take the OW kids with me. The last time I had my kids fishing with me my anxiety was so bad I could not really enjoy the trip. Maybe with me being on different medicine I might enjoy the trip, but fishing just does not seem to matter to me much any more.


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## LongWalk

OW's kids are a problem. Do you like them? Can you open your heart to them? You need to do things with the kids to gather strength. Also, since you are taking responsibility, I think you should set down condition for the other women. In front, your wife you should ask other woman to do something for the collective good. Some useful chore. Do it politely but firmly so that she and your wife can feel that you are the boss in some way. 

This will raise your sex ranking in their eyes. You need to do this to protect yourself.

You should get the VAR.


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## unsure823

I do like the the OW kids. I feel like I have opened up to them and they are opening up to me. They told me they love me this morning when they got on the bus and I am treating them like they are my kids. I discipline them and let them know when they do a good job. The OW is helping a lot as it is. She has really helped the past couple of days with my wife being sick from strep. I have actually started reading the book NO More Mr. Nice Guy. It does sound like me in a lot of ways. I am working tonight and tomorrow night, which tomorrow is my boys birthday and we are all celebrating it tomorrow evening. If things go like I figure they will my wife and OW may have a few to many and may wind up in my bed by the time I leave for work. I figure this could be an opportunity for them, but who knows. I did get home the other morning and the OW was in my bed at least dressed, and it was that time of the month for her, so I figure not much happened if anything. I guess I don't mind if something did happen, but don't tell me it will not happen and then do it behind my back. I can tell this is going to be one of those nights for me. My anxiety is trying to kick in but I plan on getting to work and trying to work through it tonight.
I may get my first chance to start a change from being Mr. Nice sooner than I thought. I just seen a post on facebook saying she has her next tattoo picked out. That would be like her third or forth one this year, while I have been saving money and selling things so she can stay home and no work. I have had enough of the tattoos and plan to say no to this one.


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## LongWalk

> If things go like I figure they will my wife and OW may have a few to many and may wind up in my bed by the time I leave for work. I figure this could be an opportunity for them, but who knows. I did get home the other morning and the OW was in my bed at least dressed, and it was that time of the month for her, so I figure not much happened if anything. I guess I don't mind if something did happen, but don't tell me it will not happen and then do it behind my back.


You have sanctioned this open marriage pandora's box. That is fact now. I think you should not tolerate them lying about it. A woman's period never stopped me from having sex. I don't think it will stop them. Are you having sex with OW? Do you kiss her when the three of you are together? That would be a sign that she actually has feelings for you. If she doesn't have some spot in her heart for you, then you are just the gatekeeper to your wife. That is something may not be acceptable to you.

I think that if you are strong and act secure, you will be their man. Be the alpha male in this. Laugh out loud about it. 

By accepting her kids I think you can gain masculine energy. But if you feel that it is sucking you in the wrong direction, you need to draw up an exit plan.


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## unsure823

The first time we were all together she kissed me. The last time I guess I joined in a little late but neither my wife or the OW kissed me. That time I only had sex with the other woman. I even asked permission before I finished in her. They both agreed. I think she has a spot in her heart for me but I also figure she is not sure what she wants at this time. I do accept her kids and one of them asked me to sign their homework but it asked for parent or guardian so I did not sign. I have told the OW she can sleep in bed with us but I think she may still be a little uncomfortable about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kissing during sex sends all kinds of signals. When a man and woman are having intercourse and the woman wants some deep kisses as an emotional balance to surrender the man might only brush his lips briefly against hers, teasing her, as if to say “I am too busy fvcking you to bother giving you a passionate kiss.”

I remember once forcing one of my first serious girlfriends to kiss as she was about to orgasm. It did not stop her and she never complained. I guess I was saying “here I am, it’s me who is doing this to you.”

If the three of you are in bed and you are having intercourse while the women are kissing, then it is possible that you are being treated like a dildo while they connect even deeper. Why don’t you try and take charge? You suggest some foreplay. Maybe you can blindfold the other woman, tie her hands and then put ear plugs with music on. She will not know who is doing what while you and your wife play with her.

What I am suggesting is that you make certain you are not the third wheel on the sexual or emotional planes. You need to generate excitement. As long as you accept this potentially disastrous open relationship, you ought to try and turn it into something positive. If you think they are going to cheat on you while you are at work, maybe you should call up and tell them to start having sex with you on the telephone. Don’t let them and especially OW build some private world that excludes you.

Get physical exercise, eat right, avoid alcohol. Fight thoughts of death and depression. Watch Louis CK, George Carlin or some other stand comedians that you like and then spin a story about yourself to laugh. A lot of men are dying to be in your place and you are considering flipping the off button. Haha, crazy, got to laugh. Read GutPunch’s thread. No matter how tough things got the guy never stopped joking.

Are the kids playing sports?


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## unsure823

My boy plays baseball. Her son may play t-ball in the spring and her daughter may start dance with my daughter the first of next year. I have coached my boy in ball for a few years and even was on the board. This season I am trying to step away from it some and see if my boy will act a little different with some one else coaching him. If the OW son decides to play ball I might decide to coach again. I feel like I am a decent coach until the boys get a little older and then I may not push the boys as hard as some of the other coaches do, but my team usually has the most fun and all the boys seem to want me to coach again. The boys on my team get to see different positions and be active with the team no matter how good or bad they are. As it is now I am usually the one that takes the kids outside to play in the evenings and the women will chill inside. My wife has been sick the past week and the OW has helped a lot. She even walked out in the kitchen tonight while I was eating desert and gave me a hug and a kiss on the head. It felt great considering I have not had any emotion from my wife since she has been sick, which I understand and do not expect it from her. I texted the OW a little bit on the way into work tonight and just chatted to make sure she was ok and my wife was fine. It did feel nice to just have a good conversation with her and I let her know some of my feelings about her. I did not say I wanted her to stay with us, but let her know she was special to me and my wife. Things seem to be good and the wife and I have or anniversary this weekend and have some plans. The following weekend or the next the OW husband flies in which should be interesting.


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## unsure823

I fell the end is nearing. I checked my wives phone the other day and her and the OW had been texting and the OW said she wanted to cum and my wife said Sunday night will be here soon. I know they have been sleeping in same bed at night, which I was sort of ok with, but now that I feel like things are happening I do not like that. My wife and OW sit in love set sometimes together and I get stuck on the couch like a third wheel. I texted my wife the other night while OW was sitting beside her and my wife said do you really want to push me to that. I said to what and she said for her to leave over nothing. She acts like they are not doing nothing, but I seen the messages. I know when this comes to an end it will be the end of my life. I am not going through a dirty divorce and not sure how much more of this I can handle. I know the OW husband may be coming here in Novemeber since they have a contract on there house, but wife has told me OW is considering telling him he does not need to move in with us because she does not really want him any more. I just know that there is nothing I can do or any medicine I can take to keep my life if things keep going like they are. My wife says suicide is the ultimate selfish thing to do, but she has always said I am selfish so I goes it would only be fit for me to go out like that.


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## LongWalk

Man, sorry to read this last post. But on the positive side, you've been going up and down, don't assume that you are stuck in this downward trough. I don't think you are. However, you need to sort things out logically. Tough when emotions are heavy but take things one by one:

1) Suicide and thoughts of suicide
Suicide is selfish. It would cause irreparable pain and damage to your children. They would go through their entire lives suffering if you did take that decision. You cannot do that. If necessary, check into a hospital emergency room. If you don't have the energy to get expensive professional help, look for something free online.

Come to TAM and ask for help. There are very kind people who might help on the phone. No promises but Turnera, Happyman and Conrad are very solid, but of course I cannot speak for them.

2) Your wife's love
Tell your wife that you will not commit suicide and you will not blame her that problem. She cannot bear that burden. You are not going to make her want you more if you are imploding.

3) Their dishonesty
You did not want the VAR because you did not want to hear them getting it on while you were not there. You knew that they would not be able to keep apart. The lying is wrong. You should tell your wife and her friend that the lying has to stop.

The biggest and most harmful lie is not that they sneak behind your back, but that they are not being honest about what this triangular relationship is about. You need to feel like an equal partner, but you don't. You are giving but you are not getting back. Moreover, you are not getting enough love or security.

Ask them what you they offer you?

4) The other man
You don't have a high opinion of him. However, he does have rights as a parent. His children need him. His wife has defeated him. Her goal may be for your wife to follow her example. You cannot let that happen.

Above all you cannot leave the house. You can demand that the other woman leave. It is your home, not hers. Your wife and you must be in agreement about her presence. 

If the other woman leaving costs you your marriage, it wasn't really on solid ground to begin with.

Keep going with the sports. Coaching will make you feel good. Do it.
Also, given that your wife is not monogamous, you have every right to date.

5) Children
Most important of all. You should tell your wife and her lover that the children can grow up in a non-conventional family if it is happy, warm and secure. If it not joyful, it will disturb them. So, your wife and OM should be actively discussing this family and its future, not just winging it.


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## unsure823

That is one of the biggest problems I have when these thoughts occur. I seem to not care about anybody or anything and I think that is the reason I see it as a possibility of happening. I have tried to get my wife to talk about where all of this is going, but she seems to just want to wing it. She says for me not to push a relation with the other woman, but when my wife pushes for sex with the OW things seem to happen. I did text her the other day saying I thought there was more to her and the OW and they are hiding things from me. That is when she got defensinve and started the threat of leaving me. Which also leads me to believe things are happening behind my back. I know that they are atleast having a EA. I have been doing a lot of things around the house and feel like a handy man to them. I also seem to be the one that takes the kids outside to play most of the time. They did take the kids outside for a little bit today, while I was working on a project. I have been up all day so I could get the project done and now I have to work tonight. While doing the project I ran into problems and my anxiety seemed to kick in, but I did not take any medicine, because I knew if I did I would wind up a sleep and not get the job done and with out it being done, they dogs would have to be let in and out, because it was the doggy door I was working on. I am at work now and my anxiety is kicking in and I felt like I can not let it run away tonight, so I took my medicine which is xanax. It tends to make me just want to lay down and go to sleep, but hopefully I can make it through the night and make the 1 hour drive home with out going to sleep. I guess if I do go to sleep hopefully I am the only one invovled in the the wreck and I still don't care if I live through the wreck. 
The suicidal thoughts are getting stronger and I have even went to the point to figure I have the rope and a place to use it. 
I would love to call and just tell someone this whole story but the few people I think I could call are mostly her family and friends that I do not want to know the whole story. I guess this story has turned more toward me trying to keep me from commiting suicide. 
The one things I guess that has triggered all of this tonight is I did notice my wife did not have her wedding rings on again. I feel like if she is going to play that game again I am done. Be it getting a divorce or just doing away with my life. I am sick of all of this roller coaster that she has full control over and me and the OW have to sit at night in the den with her and you can cut the tension with a butter knife.

I have considered just going to the ER and see what they can do. Maybe this would be awake up call for the people around me to realize how bad off I am. I did tell my mother-in-law and sister-in-law a while back about the suicide thoughts and they just said to call or come over if I needed to, but I don't want to talk to them for the fact my wife maybe pulling phone records and this would just cause more trouble.


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## LongWalk

Stop indulging the suicide fantasies. Picture your children dealing with the idea of dad dangling on the end of a rope for rest of their lives. Are you that cruel?

It is totally legitimate to want out of your marriage if you not your wife's lover partner. The correct thing to do is file for divorce and tell the OW to leave. If she and your wife want to get a new house or apartment, that is their choice. If you leave like a beaten dog, you'll just feel more depressed.

Don't drink. Make sure you get exercise and fresh air.

PM Turnera and ask her if you can talk.


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## LongWalk

Your wife went behind your back when she started this affair. So the cheating aspect was already established. The notion that the OW could move in to your home and only have sex with your wife when you were around is absurd. It’s like thinking your kids won’t go in the fridge after school to look for snacks. If their favorite desert – say apple pie is in there – they will nibble away.

Your thoughts of suicide, well would they disappear if your wife loved you and only you? What if the other woman disappears and your wife doesn’t want to have sex with you anymore, would you feel that your life was still not worth living? You cannot make your wife’s love the reason for your existence. For the first thing, that is too big a burden on her or anyone. Secondly, your responsibility is to your children. You need to life for them. Are you incapable of imagining your children staring at your corpse?

Regarding your wife taking off her wedding ring. So what? A woman takes off a piece of jewelry, is that worth your life?

As to the atmosphere at home being extremely tense, you created that situation by agreeing to let the OW come and live with you despite the obvious reason for the move – to be with your wife. It would seem that your wife is more in love with OW than you. Currently she is more lesbian than bi. She is also selfishly more interested her happiness than yours. She is cheater. Do delude yourself about their desire or ability to only have sex when you are around.

Have you had sex with OW when your wife is not there to see whether she is into you or willing to have sex with you to create equality?

Your choices at this point:

1) Demand the OW leave
Which will probably result in the end of your marriage.

2) Learning to live with threesome
During this period of time you must work on yourself and plan to get out of the relationship.


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## unsure823

I feel like if I had just my wife back for just me a lot of my suicide thoughts and depression would go away. If the other woman left and my wife did not want to have sex with me I am not sure how I would feel. I have really learned to live with out sex since it has been so long for me and the wife. I am content at most times just to be with her and have fun doing other things. I know this maybe wrong but that is the way I feel. I do wish I had a good counselor where I could sit down and talk about things and help myself. I have been to a few counselors but none that I liked. I only have a few close by that are on my insurance and can not afford to pay for them out of my pocket. 

Longwalk you really put things in perspective for me. It would be wrong for my kids to see what dad has done to his self and have to live with that. It is hard for me to think about living by myself and just getting to see my kids ever so often. I do also agree about the ring. I have felt that it is just a ring since the last episode where she was not wearing it. I asked her tonight if her ring was bothering her or if we needed to get it sized. She said no she just does not feel the need to wear it around the house, which I did notice this morning when she left she had it on. It is strange that a ring can make me feel that way but it does. I understand her not wearing it at the house, so I am feeling a lot better tonight. We all seemed to have a good night and the OW went on a run and asked me where I was because she wanted me to go with her. I was on the phone, but would have went if I was not. Me and the wife took up running awhile back and plan to start back once she is over the pneumonia. The OW has been a runner for a long time, but we ran some when went to visit her and we seem to run pretty good together. 

I figure I am going to try to stay till the end of October, because that is when the OW husband is suppose to be moving in with us. If he does not move in with us I figure it will be a change for all of us either way. I do not know if it will be good for me or not, but I still have thoughts that me and the wife can work things out. I know she maybe cheating on me, but unless I find hard evidence I can not totally check out. I have been thinking about the VAR again and think I will see if I can get one with out it showing up on the bank account or being sent to the house.

I have not had sex with the OW with just me and her. I have not really tried, because my wife said that it would only be us three and not my wife and OW or OW and me. I have considered trying with the other woman to see how she would react, but we just never really seem to have any alone time, so not much chance to try or that I am brave enough to try.


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## cdbaker

Just catching up on all of this now but wow.

I have seen you say that your kids come first more than once here. The fact is, if you even consider suicide, you are putting yourself first and them last, because they will be the ones hurt the absolute most. Again, it isn't putting them second, it is putting them LAST.

I also hate to say it, but avoid going to the ER or having an emotional breakdown that requires in-patient treatment, because that will have an enormous impact on any potential custody fight in a family court. It will be easy for her to paint you as unstable, irresponsible, a threat and naturally incapable of parenting. If you can keep it together, you can probably present a very strong case yourself for majority custody.

If it hasn't been recommended yet, I highly recommend the "Married Man's Sex Primer 2011." (Pretty sure that is the title) Seriously, it could help you enormously, maybe even save your marriage. It goes hand in hand with the Nice Guy's book you mentioned you have already been reading. Your are a prototypical beta male, who has been dragged down to Delta. Very, VERY few women if any can bring themselves to have any respect for a man that low down. And without respect, she'll hardly think twice before deceiving you, using you, and she won't even feel bad about it because you won't be worthy of feeling guilty over in her mind. Women respect strength, leadership, authority, power. Someone who can lead them, tell them no from time to time, be confident in himself, etc. That book can help you take small steps to improve your rank, which you absolutely need to do, whether for this marriage or your next one.

Also, start dressing better, working out more, and by all means, flirt to your hearts content. Nothing will make your wife notice you more than if you are suddenly desirable to other women


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## unsure823

cdbaker, you are correct in saying I have said my kids come first. I do feel that way and that is probably the only thing that has kept from committing suicide. I don't want them to hurt and be with out a dad or the money I bring into the house. My wife is not working now, so my children would have nothing. I am greatful for you and longwalk making me see the bad side of committing suicide. Not that I did not see some of it before but it puts it in more perspective when others say it.

Like I said I have considered starting running with OW since she likes to run and I enjoy it myself. I was being very affectionate toward the OW and my wife came up to me one day and said I needed to stop. She did not like this and pretty much let me know that it would be the end of our marriage if I kept it up, so I do see how my wife can be jealous of me flirting.

I will look into the book you mentioned and start reading it. In my marriage there has been very few times I have told the wife no, but I am at the point now where I can tell her no. She went through a lot of money and has backed off some and I have even told her to stop spending money we do not have. She has not used the credit cards in a few months, so I feel like I am making progress there, but I know I could use more help.

As far as the fight over the children if we divorce. There probably won't be much of one considering I work nights and that would make it hard for me to get custody, since they are young and do not need to be at the house by themselves at night. Not saying that I make decisions based on that, just stating the facts. 

The one thing I have pretty much made my mind up is something for this weekend. If the OW comes to bed with us I plan to make some moves on my wife and see where things go. Even if the OW does not come to bed with us I will make the moves on my wife and see how things go. Me and the wife have only had sex one time since all of this and that was just the weekend before the OW moved in. I feel like it is time for me to be a little assertive in this relationship and maybe force some issues to see where things are going. I have pretty much sat on the sidelines and let things happen, but I don't really want to do that anymore and would like to see if my wife wants me or the OW or all 3 of us to live together which I am fine with as long as we are all even in this.


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## LongWalk

Be the boss. Run with OW. When it is time for bed, don't ask your wife. Just go to OW, take her by the hand and say come on. Lead her to your bedroom and have wild monkey sex, but you do what you want. Not rape of course, but don't be the third wheel. Make sure you kiss the OW in front of your wife.


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## unsure823

LOL!!! Longwalk if it was only that simple. I have not kissed the OW on the lips unless we were all having sex, but I have kissed her on the forehead and arm a few times, which my wife says is ok. I am sure if I grabbed other women and planted a big wet kiss on her my wife would come unglued. 

I did tell my wife once that I almost went to OW bed one morning when I got home early because I knew she was awake and figured a good massage might help her to sleep. My wife said I should have so maybe next time I will and see where things go. I guess I might cross a line with my wife one day, but if it helps to push things along and things not be limbo I guess that would be a good thing. Thanks for the laugh LongWalk.


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## LongWalk

unsure823 said:


> LOL!!! Longwalk if it was only that simple. I have not kissed the OW on the lips unless we were all having sex, but I have kissed her on the forehead and arm a few times, which my wife says is ok. I am sure if I grabbed other women and planted a big wet kiss on her my wife would come unglued.
> 
> I did tell my wife once that I almost went to OW bed one morning when I got home early because I knew she was awake and figured a good massage might help her to sleep. My wife said I should have so maybe next time I will and see where things go. I guess I might cross a line with my wife one day, but if it helps to push things along and things not be limbo I guess that would be a good thing. Thanks for the laugh LongWalk.


Don't talk about your relationship so much. Do lots of stuff indepently and with the kids. Workout to burn off frustration and anxiety.

Feign indfference to what they do. When you come into action be the doer, not a jerk but self confident. They may like having you steer heads and hands.

Laugh at the absurdity. OW's husband is potentially the victim here. Are you willing to lie for her? If he wants to know, you should you be complicit in his deception? I remember you said you don't think he is a nice guy.

Keep running.


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## caladan

LongWalk said:


> Be the boss. Run with OW. When it is time for bed, don't ask your wife. Just go to OW, take her by the hand and say come on. Lead her to your bedroom and have wild monkey sex, but you do what you want. Not rape of course, but don't be the third wheel. Make sure you kiss the OW in front of your wife.


Unfortunately, this is NOT going to happen. 

I've been off this thread for 2-3 weeks, and the OP has done nothing for himself apparently, apart from running this as a diary. No gym. No positive movement. No attempt to "man up".

Everything the doomers (self included) predicted is now beginning to happen. And look - the OW's husband is moving in. Guess who mans up and gets respect from both women.

Unsure - you can take your life into your hands and work on yourself, or you can sit back, accept that you're a wimp, and watch as your world collapses about you. At the moment, you've chosen the latter (yes, chosen. A refusal to choose is in itself a choice).

I wish I could give you advice here, but what you seem to want is a magic wand solution, an outsider that will give you something that will miraculously stuff cash in your pockets, balls in your sack, two inches to your member, while clearing your house of people you don't want and endearing your missus to you. Unfortunately, life doesn't work like that.

I'm sorry mate, but over the duration of this thread, you've pretty much watched and cheered from the stands as you marriage collapses around you. Based on sheer amount of great advice you've recieved and your failure to even try to implement any of them (because that's not who you are), you're partly culpable in this mess. It's not too late for you to turn yourself (Not your marriage, that's out of your hands) around, but the window is closing very fast.

Make the decision. Tell her it's not going to work for you. Disengage, move out, get your own place (a roomshare). Separate your finances and get your life in order.


Unless of course you're some sort of "sub" who takes pleasure in being taken advantage of.


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## LongWalk

Caladan, do you mean he cannot find a better spot in the situation as it stands?


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## cdbaker

Gosh I don't know, maybe there is two possible ways out of this that still involve saving the marriage...

Honestly my view is that this whole threesome thing, or plural marriage, or whatever is just biding time before it all collapses and you will most certainly be the one who is left out. That means divorce, and if you continue to let your wife not work, then probably alimony as well, plus child support if you've accepted that you truly couldn't take your kids. (Seriously, if your job is in the way, then find a way to change shifts or find a new job, period. You can't possibly be valuing your job over your kids?)

I mostly agree with Caladan here. You need to find a way to restore your wife's respect for you by standing up to her and these other marital troublemakers in your life. She needs to get a job. (Especially with divorce being very possible/likely) You need to get the OW, and especially her husband out of your home. If she refuses either of those things, then you need to decide that your self respect is worth more to you than a wife who would do this to you. Plus, if you are able to truly man up, she very possibly might change her mind after some time anyway.

At the current pace however, you'll continue to lose your wife to the OW and possibly the OW's H. Women simply can't love a man whom they don't respect. It's NOT possible, and bending over for her over and over again will not win her back, it will only push her further away. And as I just alluded to, even the OW's H will soon be a threat. You all seem to view him as an *******, and maybe he is or isn't, but he is definitely an Alpha and it sounds like he wouldn't put up with 1/10th of the mess you have. He'll come into your home and become the Alpha-male of the household on Day 1, and your wife and the OW won't have any use for you anymore. Don't think that just because he is an ******* that this means your wife won't find him incredibly sexually attractive as he expresses his alpha side all over the home. Instead of OW joining you and your wife, your wife just might want to join OW. OW can't be happy with him alone, but if she can have his Alpha sexuality along with your wife's love/tenderness, that might sound ideal for them.


That is what I think you need to do, for yourself and for the best possible (if unlikely) outcome for your family. Another route you could consider, though again I don't think it's the best plan by any stretch, seems like something similar to what LongWalk has discussed. You could use the existing situation to grow your self confidence a bit, make your wife jealous, and then maybe re-earn her respect and find her wanting the OW out herself.

You could begin aggressively courting the OW. After all, your wife isn't interested in anything you offer, and she clearly feels she is entitled to play around with others, so she shouldn't have any problem with you taking the same approach. (Of course, she WILL have a problem with that, but she wont' have any ground to stand on there, will she?) So go ahead and flirt with the OW, figure out her love language and meet it, whether via gifts, quality time, acts of service for her, words of affirmation, or of course, physicality. Don't kiss her on the forehead anymore, just go in for a big kiss on the lips with your hands firmly gripping her hips (if not her butt). Don't try to have sex with her right there though, make your move firmly and then walk off, leave her thirsty for more and your wife fuming. She'll be angry, but if she wants you to herself, she can make that choice.

In fact, if you go this route, just Alpha it up all over the place. Flirt with everyone. Open some dating profiles on dating websites if you like. Make it clear that what is good for the goose is good for the gander as well. When she says things like, "Do you really want to push me right now? Do you want me to leave and call this marriage over?", just rebuff her right back with, "Do you really want to push ME right now? Do you really think I'd even want a wife who finds this behavior acceptable?" Heck, when you find her in bed with the OW, go ahead and let her know that you have another W in mind that you've invited to bed the following week.


Lastly of course, you can continue doing what you are doing. You'll either lose BIG TIME (as I described in the first paragraph above) or your find yourself settled into the roll of a cuckold, serving your wife, the OW, and probably her H as well. Google the term "cuckold" if you haven't already. There are a lot of guys who are into that sort of thing so maybe you'll grow into it if you haven't already, and there are a few cuckold related forums out there online for you too. I genuinely don't say any of this to hurt you, but clearly you can see where the path you are on will lead you. If the idea of being your wife's fluffer doesn't turn you on, then you absolutely must man up and earn back her respect one way or the other, and I listed two possible scenarios above.

In any case (aside from the cuckold scenario I suppose), you'll want to KEEP THE OTHER H OUT. Just put your foot down. He's not welcome. Your home already has a man and he will not allow another one to enter. I promise you, allowing him to move into your home will be bad news no matter which direction you take. He'll either replace you or he'll push your wife and the OW closer together, or both. That's it.


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## caladan

LongWalk said:


> Caladan, do you mean he cannot find a better spot in the situation as it stands?


Not quite - I do suspect that he's probably crossed a critical threshold, but I can't make that sort of categorical conclusion from the outside. I do however believe that the odds are pretty much stacked against the OP, in part due to his own refusal or inability to influence the situation.


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## caladan

One quick thing - This idea of getting UB to flirt with the OW is brilliant in my opinion. There's only one complication - UB. If he dares try it, he will be laughed out of house and home. There's a place, an amout of development and improvement that can get UB to the point where he can pull that sort of move. He's nowhere close to that point. It would be like one of those hollywood scenes where the class dork tries to pull a hardman move with one of the prettiest girls in his class. Brave, gutsy, but the personality doesn't match the action. What UB needs to change the most is his personality. His self belief.

So - it's a great plan, but not for the OP. There's only one thing the OP is bringing to the table at the moment, and that's his paycheck.

And - UB - did you really agree for your wife to stop working? Duuude, bad, bad bad move. You'll be kicked out of your home and will still have to pay for it.


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## Tron

cdbaker said:


> In any case (aside from the cuckold scenario I suppose), you'll want to KEEP THE OTHER H OUT. Just put your foot down. He's not welcome. Your home already has a man and he will not allow another one to enter. I promise you, allowing him to move into your home will be bad news no matter which direction you take. He'll either replace you or he'll push your wife and the OW closer together, or both. That's it.


:iagree:

There is absolutely nothing good that can come from the other H moving in. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!


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## unsure823

Ok I do agree I have not done much till this point. I am starting to read some of the books listed and like I said I plan on pushing some issues this weekend. The OW my wife and I all agree that we do not want the OH in the house, so maybe I can man up there and keep him out. I know that this would be a big steep for me, but I feel like I will have my wife and the OW support on this, so that might make it easier for me to do. I do see where the OH is going to be a big problem if he moves in. He will probably push my wife and OW closer together and I may be left on the outside because they would not want him to know what is has been going on. I am also not sure how I will answer the question if he ask about them having sex or if I have been involved. I would probably just give hints of what happened and let him fill in the blanks that way I am not responsible for telling him, but at the same time I would have not lied to him. I am trying to man up to my wife. I am making plans for us and making more decisions around the house, which my wife says was part of the problem when all of this started. 

I understand that most of you have been on this site for years and know how things usually work out. Maybe I should have listened more sooner, but I am really trying to listen to the suggestion and take some action to change things in my favor. 

I told the wife today that I felt like it was going to be one of those nights where my anxiety was going to kick in. I did take some of my xanax to help earlier and did seem to help. I have not taken at that time of the day before because it usually makes me so sleepy. It did not really make me sleepy today, maybe because we have so much going on in the house in the evenings. With the kids homework and making lunches and getting them ready for school. Not to mention tonight once the homework was done I took the kids outside for awhile and when I came in me and the OW went on a 2 mile run, which felt great. I think I may start running more even if she is not running. I am usually home in time in the mornings I could take a run and still be home to get the kids on the bus or help get them ready, so that would be perfect time for me to run and get in better shape. I do appreciate all the input on here and plan to make some changes for me considering I have realized that I may not be totally happy with my life now. I did sale my boat, but I am already considering buying another one, maybe just not as big and expensive as I had before. I miss fishing and taking my kids to the river.


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## cdbaker

First off, this is your life, you need to do what you feel is right and not feel like you HAVE to take our advice. We aren't there after all and our only source of information is you.

With that said, I think we all see that you really do need to change some things.

For starters, good god, if your wife and OW also feel that they don't want the OH around, then yes of course that makes it easier to stand up and just say no. Tell both of them that he will not be allowed into your home, period. If they are concerned about how he'll respond, then just offer to call him yourself. In fact, I think it would be best if you took charge of that situation and just told them that you need his number and that you will be "resolving this situation" yourself. Tell him he isn't welcome, that he will not be permitted onto YOUR property, and that there will be consequences if you find him on your property. (Don't go into detail there, you aren't wanting to directly threaten him, just let him "get the picture")

As far as your anxiety... Gosh I know it is a legit problem. I know you need the medication and such, but I think you should realize that the anxiety issue very likely makes you appear extremely weak in the eyes of your wife. Again, women want a strong and confident man. If you are constantly reminding her that your anxiety/fear/nervousness constantly on the verge of incapacitating you, then that just comes off as pathetic. It makes her feel like she has to take care of her grown man husband, and perform duties that she feels she aught to be able to rely on you for. 

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, or hurt your feelings or anything there, but I really think you need to try to overcome the anxiety issue by yourself. If you need the meds then take the meds, if you need IC then certainly go to IC, but try to manage it all without your wife if at all possible.

Also, when you "push issue" this weekend, make sure to do so with authority. I'm not so sure about pushing for sex right now, but if you think that needs to be part of it then go ahead. Pick a direction to take and don't waver. What Caladan says directly above this is right, you have some good options that could work well, but he doubts that you are capable of pulling them off. The "nerdy guy asking the head cheerleader out" is a good example, but as long as you do so with confidence and an air of authority, you'll come off looking good whether you win that particular battle or not.

Also, keep working out, keep eating better, and keep being a good father. Either she'll notice and it will help, or she won't and that'll just mean she has emotionally 100% moved on. In either case, you'll improve your own sex rank to find someone better later on or maybe she'll wake up before it's too late.


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## unsure823

I did have the discussion of talking to the OH with my wife today and she said unfortunately the OW needs him to move in with us so she can keep peace till she has lived her long enough to file for divorce in this state. The state they are coming from has it set where a husband have to live in separate locations I think for a year before you can file for divorce. She wants to keep peace till she can file. After the response I gave last night I was all gun ho to tell him not to come here. I now I maybe should not have such strong feelings for OW but I do. I plan on this weekend or next week having the conversation on what they think I should tell him if he ask about his wife and my wife being together or if he ask if I have been with his wife. If I don't have the conversation I know I will keep it vague as I answer his questions. I really don't care for him coming here, but I guess I am willing to allow it for the OW to keep peace. Me and the wife did talk today about what kind of money the other couple should pay us once he moves here. I stepped up and told her I would have that talk with him and me and the wife agreed on a set amount. The OW is paying for half the groceries now and a little extra toward water and electricity. 

My wife and the OH had it out the other day, because he accused his wife of leaving him for another woman and my wife said she has a place to stay as long as she wants. I am not sure of the total details but know my wife can't stand him and never really could. We also found out he has been truck shopping on his days off instead of packing the house and applying for jobs here. I told the wife he can be picky till he move in then he needs to work somewhere even if it is flipping burgers. I am not going to allow him to move in and just sit around the house. He will help pay for things and help with things around the house or I will kick him out. 

I can tell you this I will continue to run with OW or by myself because I felt great last night after running even though my legs still are a little sore. I know that will go away soon and I would love to tone my body up, because I have always been the skinny kid and once I got married I put on some pounds but not in muscle. I would love to look decent and not either be the skinny guy or the guy with a little beer gut. I have had a lot of people tell me I look good since I lost 35lbs and know how much better I would look if I put on some muscle. No I am not going to get huge but just tone things up. I guess what I am saying is I am ready to change me for once and I appreciate the encouragement from all of you.


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## LongWalk

CD Baker is right. OM cannot move in. Tell him he is not welcome. Do not discuss your anxiety with your wife. That just lowers her respect for you. You must fake the self confidence.

OM is an absolute additional factor that will make things worse.


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## cdbaker

unsure823 said:


> I did have the discussion of talking to the OH with my wife today and she said unfortunately the OW needs him to move in with us so she can keep peace till she has lived her long enough to file for divorce in this state.


Ok, dude, this is not your problem. The reason behind anyone wanting him to move in is completely irrelevant. You don't owe him, or the OW anything, your responsibility is to your kids and your wife. If everyone agree's they don't like this asscl0wn, then it will NOT be good for anyone for him to be there. God, if you have to use the kids then you can explain that it will not be good for the kids to be around this mess of a situation. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that his moving in will result in ANYTHING but badness for everyone involved. If you allow him to move in, you might as well file for divorce and start a savings account for the therapy your children are going to need.

As a matter of fact, that savings account is probably a good idea either way.

And you think you'll be able to call the shots regarding his getting a job, paying you rent/bills, etc. or else you'll kick him out? You can't bring yourself to do that now by making it clear that he isn't welcome and will not be permitted to move in, so what will change later when he is comfortably moved in and taking advantage of your insecurity and possibly your wife, all within sight and earshot of your children?

Seriously I'm sorry to come off sounding so harsh, but so many of us are struggling to help you see how insane this situation is, how you are assisting in the destruction of your family by not putting a stop to it. You finished your last post saying that you are willing and ready to change yourself for once and appreciate our advice/encouragement, but the reality is that you seem to be ignoring our advice/encouragement and aren't changing anything of importance.

Again, it's your choice to ignore us, you do know your situation better than anyone here, so you have to consider that. But some of this stuff is pretty cut and dried man.

Do not let her explain that YOU need to allow something because SOMEONE ELSE has a desire to USE you. That is not a logical statement, and has no relevance on the situation.


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## LongWalk

If the OM comes, tell him he cannot come in. Tell him where cheapest motel is. His wife can move out and join him if she wants. Be polite, be firm. If your wife, his wife and OM try to force it, just call the police.

If you need to Unsure, visualize yourself as Clint Eastwood or some other hard a$$. Hard but fair. You need to be a man of few words with an intense stare.


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## unsure823

Ok guys I took your advice this weekend and did not talk to my wife about my anxiety and felt it coming on Friday, so I took an xanax Friday morning and did not say anything to her. We had plans Friday to do some shopping and spend the day together, which I did not want to screw up. I did not eat dinner Thursday night, because I had a late lunch and did not have breakfast yet when I took the xanax. Me and the wife left for shopping and was planning on eating, but we decided to go do some shopping first then eat. While we was eating the wife looked at me and asked if I had taken any medicine and I said yes I had taken one of my xanax. She said my eyes were dilated and I looked strange. We left eating and it is only about 10-15 minutes from were we was eating to the house. I feel asleep in the vehicle and then tried to help around the house, but she could tell I was not right so she keep telling me to go to bed.I finale gave in and went to bed. I wound up sleeping almost 5 hours even with the bedroom door open and the kids coming home from school a hour before I got up. We went to eat dinner and I could tell she was not happy. I tipped toe all night and when we got home I had to use the restroom and heard her tell my boy she was leaving. After the restroom I tried to find out what was up, but my boy or the OW said they did not know. My wife was gone for awhile before I tried to contact her and she said she was headed home and she just needed some time to herself. Things were ok rest of the night and we slept. When we got up we took the kids somewhere to spend about 3 hours and my wife managed to get a migraine and fell asleep for a little while. When we got home she went to bed and me and the OW went up to my wife parents house since her grandparents were in town and they were having a birthday party for one of them. That went good and then we come home. The wife still had a headache, so we just hung out in the bedroom. I guess what I am getting at is things did not go good enough that I felt comfortable making my move on her. I guess you could say I did try a little with the OW but she did not seem interested. I have heard from the wife that the OW has said that she realizes she has not been perfect in her marriage by being with me and the wife, so I am wondering if she is having second thoughts. 

The other things that me and the wife talked about was the husband is suppose to visit this weekend and I said I have no problem telling him he is not welcome. The wife does not want me to do that because she knows the problems it will cause with there marriage. I think I will see how this weekend goes, but if there is to much tension I will not have a problem telling the husband he is not welcome at the house.

I did catch my wife looking at houses that are big enough for my family and the OW with her kids. I know my wife would love to have her stick around, which I have said would not be a problem if we are all equal, but I am not sure that will happen. I guess the thing I will have to do is to not let the husband in when he decides to move back and let things fall where they fall. If the wife chooses the other women I guess my marriage was over anyway.

I did get out and run with OW for 2.3 miles today. We was able to run that in a 10.52 minute pace. Which is her best yet. I really enjoy the runs even though we do not talk much and I think it shows my wife that we both don't have to hang on her every movement. I even told my wife once that if we got divorced I could see me being with the OW and the wife said over her dead body.


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## cdbaker

So... why will the other husband be allowed in this weekend? Why would you allow your wife to look at homes that are big enough for both families if you do not want the OW and her husband living with you? This doesn't make any sense at all.


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## unsure823

I do not mind the OW living with me, but I do mind the OH. I know this should be my own decision, but I value my wife's input. We talked today and I told her how I felt about the OH moving in and that I felt this weekend would be a trial period of how things would be when he moved in. My wife says she feels the same way, but will not tell her best friend that her husband can not move in. I told her if it came to the point where I felt like he was causing problems in my family then he would have to go. Yea I know this makes not sense but it is the way I am. The OW has even told my wife she does not want her husband here this weekend, which I guess she may be a little like me and being to nice. If she told me that she did not want him there and was not sure how to tell him I would gladly offer to tell him no. Yea hard to believe, but I have gotten very negative about the way he treats his wife and not to mention what I have heard he has planned for him this weekend, not his family.


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## cdbaker

What has he got planned for himself this weekend?

If he so chooses, it won't take him more than a weekend to take over as the Alpha male.


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## unsure823

That is just it. He has plans for himself and not his family. He is planning on going to his old work and spending the day on Friday. His daughters birthday is this weekend and he could go eat lunch with her and his son at school Friday. My wife, the OW and me laugh at this, because he is only thinking of his self. Which is fine with me. The more he thinks about his self the less the OW wants to do with him. My wife can't stand him and I laugh when you say it would only take him a weekend to take over as the Alpha male. 

The OW finally made plans for the girls to do something Saturday morning for the kids birthday. That puts me and the OH at home with 2 other kids and I sure hope he does not plan on hanging out with me, because at this point I can't stand him either. The tension in the house has been unreal this week just thinking about him staying the weekend, so I can not imagine what it will be like with him here.


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## cdbaker

Well I said he could take over as Alpha male "if he so chooses" but he clearly doesn't want that yet. Of course, there is also a LOT going on that he isn't aware of either.

Best of luck to you either way, really!


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## Shaggy

So basically at the point, your wife and the OW are the couple in the house and you are a provider who lives there also and is included by them when they have sex.

And now the OWH might move in. Will they occasionally invite him to join in? Have they already done that before with him?

I can see why you've got anxiety,


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## unsure823

A little update. The OH did come for the weekend and things were ok. He said afterwards he felt like a third wheel since he did not know the routine in the house and did not try to learn it. He did spend a lot of time on his computer while in the house and had a migraine headache the first day he was at the house so he stayed in bed most of the day. I really feel like the OW is done with him and is ready to move one. The biggest thing is she is scared of being alone. 
I did try to make the moves on my wife and got denied. I never really tried to make the moves on the OW, but did try a few things and kind of got the cold shoulder. The other day my wife made the comment that she is enjoying being my best friend, so I have not moved past that point. 
I am working on being a stronger man and not being so nice. I had a conversation with the OW the other night when both of us could not sleep and the wife was a sleep. She made the comment about me doing everything for my wife and nothing for me. That hit home, I know it has been said here many times, but coming from her was different. Also my wife even said that she felt like there was certain things I should be doing as a man, which I am trying to do more of. 
My anxiety has seemed to calm down some. I am still not going to a counselor and the OW thinks that I should be, but I tried 3 or 4 and did not find one I like and rest of the ones on my insurance are far away. Yes I would like to go to one, but not sure I am willing to make the drive. I have even tried to cut back on the tobacco because I know I am using it as a downer and need to break my habit. I have not had to take a anxiety pill in a week or so, but I do take my daily pill. 
I am at the point I feel like pinning down the wife to ask her where she thinks this relationship is going. I even told the OW the other day that if my wife told me it was over now I would just pack my stuff and leave. I am tired of fighting for my marriage and if my wife feels it is over I am not going to fight. 
I now it is not right but I have got comfortable with things the way they are and I am working to convince the two women in the house to not let the OH move in with us. I have my wife convinced but she will not say that to the OW till the OW is convinced that he does not need to move in. The more she talks to him and he lies to her the more she feels like he does not need to move in. He is telling my wife one thing and telling his wife something else, so they are catching him in lies left and right.


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## LongWalk

Unsure,
You are not suicidal anymore. But your life is so disordered that you could be cast into a well at the world's end in an instant. 

One reoccurring pattern is that the couple in the household decide everything and present their decisions to you as nonnegotiable. You have no veto and are only informed rather than involved.

How are you going to end this power over you?

You cannot use drugs to escape reality. Your wife will not respect you if you cannot control your anxiety. 

Who works and earns money besides you?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## unsure823

Longwalk,

I am not sure how I am going to stop this power over me. I am starting to see the light of things I think. Yes this site has been help to me in a way to vent and people have pointed out things I should do that I have not done and still not sure how I will do those things. The problem I have is sometimes coming to this site seems to get my anxiety started. I do feel like my anxiety is starting to be more in my control. My wife has said things to me that would normally set my anxiety off, but has not in the past week or so. I have considered coming off the medicine, but have a few things coming up that I am worried about and do not trust myself yet to handle them with out medicine. I am hoping by the middle or end of November I can come of the medicine.

Yes my wife is not working and me and the OW are the ones working and making money. It is funny on the way in to work tonight I was thinking how I should discuss the money situation to the OH, because I feel when he moves in the other couple should be paying us some amount of money. I am not sure if I should text him or email him. I could also call him, but if I call him it would probably be a couple of more works before I do that, because there are things I do not want to tell him before they happen. I feel the more I take control over things the more respect I can gain from my wife and hopefully gain some control.

I also have started to try to draw myself away from my wife some to see how she will react. So far she is starting to show more effort toward me when I draw back. I can not seem to completely draw away from her. I still have days where I go over board with the affection, but the days I do not seem to make her show me more affection. The wife has also seemed to back off the money spending and using the credit cards. I actually managed to pay off a credit card this month and hope to continue this path.

Everything is not perfect and I know I may be wrong but I feel like we are headed in the right direction.


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## unsure823

I'm sure this has all been said before but I have noticed a couple of things lately. My wife is saying how hot some guys are on TV and I notice they seem to be strong mentally. Meaning they say what they think and they seem to control people. Is this what my wife is looking for? She has always been the one in control. Also she was suppose to be doing something this weekend but can't because of my work schedule. I figured she was going to be mad at me and my anxiety kicked in really bad. Once I got to talk to her she was ok with it. I look at everything negative and need to change that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker

Yes, the vast majority of women want a man who is strong and eager to lead/take control, or at the very least a man who they confidently know is WILLING and CAPABLE of doing so. No one wants a man who shows that he is neither willing or capable of stepping up and confidently taking charge of a situation or standing up for what he believes in or values. Women are soft and they desire strength in their men, not fear and excuses.


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## unsure823

Thanks cdbaker. The more I read on different sites and post the more I see this. I am a work in progress. The other thing I really need to figure out is counseling. I feel like I could come off my medicine but at times I feel like I need it. I still have awful thoughts that I have got to stop and feel like I need a counselor to really help me. I have any considered going to alcoholics anonymous because when I drink it is hard for me to have just one and stop. I usually don't drink during the week, but I will drink on the weekends and just can not stop at one. I usually stop one I feel a good buzz going, which I know is wrong and I just can't seem to stop.


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## unsure823

Just trying to man up and vent here instead of talking with her. She started wearing her wedding band awhile back and now the past few weeks she has stopped wearing it. She has a disease where her hands will swell when the weather gets cold and damp. So at first I just figured that was it. Then I asked her one day if we need to reize her ring because she said she did not like it twirling on her finger since she had lost weight. I said fine. Then today I suggested we go this weekend and she says the only problem she has is her hand swelling one day and not the next and said I guess it bothers you me not wearing it. I said not really just figured if you wanted to wear it then I wanted you to wear it. She has not responded and I have started a few text to her but decided I am not going to push the issue if she is not wanting to talk. The problem I do have is that she has another ring that is a friendship ring that her and her friend got. She wears it all the time. Ok I guess maybe I should take a hint, but I love her. The other things is I am trying not to be at her every call and starting to get my life back. I have done a few things for me and have started watching some football when her and her friend close the door to a room to talk. I use to go in there and interrupt some. I guess you could say I am trying to do a little 180 work.


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## cdbaker

Any update by chance?


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## unsure823

cdbaker I was just thinking the other day if I should update this or if anyone wanted to read it. The OH has moved into the house and things are going about like I expected. The women are not to crazy about him being there and he is not doing much. He and I talked the other day and he has a lot he thinks is going on with the women, but no evidence and figures they will be living together in a few years. I just let him talk and mainly listened. He does seem to see that his marriage is pretty much over and has plans of what he is going to do when they divorce. I also mentioned to him about paying rent of 1000 a month. He did not say much but later that night my wife heard the other couple talking about how much it was and the OH said they will be moving out ASAP. My wife thought that was high, so we agreed on 500 a month and she told the OH then he said that was not enough and my wife said to pay what he thought was right. I have not had a chance to talk to him in private since then to see what he tells me. The OW has all but moved into our bedroom, because she can not stand him. I am working nights, so the women sleep in bed together and he in another room. I come home and crawl in bed with the women. Nothing is going on between us now, but the OW seems to be helping me try to save my marriage. She has helped me with a few things and I think it really helps. 
As far as me and the wife. We seem to be doing good. She is still holding out on me with sex, but she is showing me more affection and even went today to buy me a expensive pair of boots, but the store was out of them. She started having a bad day and wound up getting another tattoo, so I guess I will not get my boots, which is fine because I did not need them. The girls were out getting her tattoo today and I had the kids when they got home from school since the OH was at work. I made lunches for tomorrow, got their homework done, took them outside to play and made dinner. If the wife does not see that I am doing things and the OH is doing nothing then I am sure this marriage is over. Also the wife has even made the statement that she is worried I will find a younger female and leave her. I have never threatened to do this or acted like I was leaving, so I think she knows she has a good man. 
I thing my big hurdle now is to get my wife over the lawsuit and to control her PTSD, because I am sure that is what was going on today and when this happens she just wants to be quiet and alone.
I seem to be doing better with my anxiety. I could not tell you the last time I took any medicine for an attack. I tried for a couple of days to come off my daily medicine, but that did not seem to work, so I went back on it.


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## unsure823

Alright guys this is a little of subject but need what ever help I can get. Like I said in my previous post my wife had a problem and wanted to be alone. She stayed bed for the evening and all night with the bedroom door locked. Her friend unlocked it a couple of times to get clothes and would try to talk to wife but got no where. I sent a text this morning saying love you. The reply I got was I just want to be left alone please. So I worked outside till time to eat lunch and get a shower to goto the kids fall party at school. I took the wife's jeep to school and got a text later from her friend saying the wife was bringing our car to school and swapping it for the jeep. I understood that once I realized where the wife was going since what she needed was in the jeep. When I got to the car the wife's phone was there stating she had forgotten the password and her phone was needed up. I checked our checking account a few times to see where she was at and found a few small chargers. Then I talked to her parents that had been trying to contact her with no luck. I told them what was up and they said to let them know when shee got home. Well about 8:30 I got a call from her parents saying she was at her sisters. I was glad she was safe but I found out from her sister that she did not want me knowing where she was. I told her sister to keep her there tonight and if she left to let me know. My problem is how do you not want your husband to know you are safe and where you at. Her sister and been gone for awhile and when she got home my wife was in jeep asleep. I feel my wife could be addicted to some of the medicine for her PTSD and taking to much of it. I know she is taking larazapam, cymbalta, and ambien to sleep. I know she does not always remember what she does after taking medicine at night. I just want her to get well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

Well she left her sisters this evening and said she had money and gas so she could go anywhere. I have been watching all accounts to see if I see any activity but nothing besides getting gas 20 minutes from the house she has been missing for about 3 hours. I figure if I do not hear from her by morning I will try to contact police and file a missing person report. Her sister said she looked like a zombie when she left her house. Any and all ideas appreciated. She has a IPhone but location services is cut off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure823

Well she texted the OW and said she hoped the OH was happy because he got what he wanted and she was checking hopefully as an outpatient. We did find out where and now she is checked in and staying. How long I do not know but at least she is safe and hopefully getting the help she needs. She told me the OH has to be gone, so the OW is suppose to tell him tomorrow. I told her she could tell him or I would. My wife comes first period.


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## sammy3

I am just finished reading your thread.I cant even begin to understand how you can live your life? There is so much toxic poison all around you. 

I am really sorry for what you've been living,and clearly its our emotions that make us make decisions that can just make our lives even so much more difficult for us. 

I am just lost for words for you... ((sigh))

~sammy


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## unsure823

Thanks sammy, I guess emotions and love can do things to all of us. Just another update. I did see my wife yesterday at the hospital and she was still drugged up, said she took 40 lorazapam Saturday.She feels like she needs to be somewhere, but not at the hospital she is at. When I got to talk to her a few minutes ago, she was trying to check herself out with out doctors orders. She does not have a vehicle there, so I will go get her and tomorrow I will start making calls to her counselor to get in to see him and decide where she needs to go. If she gets out. I have contacted her regular counselor to get his advice to see even if she needs to get out. I talked to him yesterday and laid everything out there for him, so he knows what is going on and hopefully can help.
The OH and I talked today and he asked if I thought he should be gone before my wife got back home. I told him if he left before she got home I could help move and offer a trailer, but after she got home I could not make any promises. I think he got the hint, but he looked at places today and said he could not get in anywhere till the end of November. I guess he is here for now and we will see how things go. I hate to put him in a hotel, but I may have to do that if the wife comes home and stays. I am not planning on her staying since she needs help. I figure the longer she stays the less chance of her getting help.


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## cdbaker

Wow, HUGE changes there. I didn't realize she was on all kinds of meds. And yeah, it sounds like there is either a serious addiction going on, or she is suicidal, or very possibly both. (You don't take 40 lorazapam unless you either want to hurt yourself or have resigned yourself to doing so)

And most addicts don't enjoy their experiences at treatment centers, so it can't surprise you that she wanted to leave, but the point is that if she has those problems, she needs to stay! Coming home will NOT let things get any better (though I think you already know that). Unless he has some kind of REALLY DAMN GOOD excuse for wanting to leave that first treatment facility, then she should go back, or find another facility nearby if another one is available.

My brother-in-law was in a similar situation. Suffering from depression, painful knee pain for 15 years (he's only 31), inability to motivate himself to enroll in school or seek a better job, he was on several meds including prescription sleep aids. He had a breakdown at work one day and shared that he was suicidal, so we took him to a treatment center where he stayed for a day or two while getting inpatient counseling, then wanted to go home (said and did all the right things) and left against their advice. Maybe two months later, even with all of his family checking in on him frequently, inviting him out to activities with us, etc., he texted my wife that he expects her to stay in school and take good care of our daughter. I raced over to his place, burst through the door and found him in bed, having swallowed both bottles of his medications (I can't remember what they were specifically) and was nearly catatonic. Able to follow me with his eyes and slightly move his arms. Called 911 and he was rushed to the hospital to have his stomach pumped, and the next day was sent for inpatient care at a treatment center for about a week.

So that's the thing, if someone needs help, they might reach that point of realizing they need help, seek it out, but then not have the strength/will to really see it through. I don't think it's uncommon AT ALL for people in that situation to quickly have a change of heart and want to leave. I'm sure treatment is scary and unpleasant. But they have to get through it!


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## cdbaker

As for kicking out the OH, you have a golden opportunity here. You don't want him in the house, the OW and your wife were only tolerating him, so now that your wife wants him out you can now give him the boot, ridding yourself of that problem and looking stronger in the eyes of your wife as well. Don't let him be there when your wife eventually returns home. I mean, if she won't be home until say, 11/10, then you can give him a couple of days to find arrangements, but if she is coming home sooner, then that is his new last day. Doesn't have to be a hotel, he can go wherever he wants or maybe go crash with a friend (even if it means going "back home" if he doesn't have any local friends yet).

Look at all of this as an opportunity to man up, take care of whats yours, and defend what is yours from all offenders.


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## unsure823

cdbaker, thanks for the support. The wife got to come home today. She will be doing out patient counseling and continuing with her regular counselor. The OH is looking for a place and we talked this morning and I told him it would be better if he left before the wife got home. I told him if he did I could offer up my trailer and vehicle and me to help him move. If he waited I could not guarantee those services. He is saying the things he looked at he can not get into till the end of the month. I have asked the wife if I need to send him on his way and she said no that it was fine to let him stay till the end of the month. I would love nothing more than to kick him out but neither of the women wish me to do that. The problem with doing that is they say it will cause more problems. I am asking them if those problems are worst than my wife's life and I get no reply. 
When she did get home she said she just wanted to shower and sleep. She says she has not had a good shower since she has been gone and has not had a good night sleep. I said ok, but I went into the bedroom tonight and she had all her medicine out putting it into a pill container that she could carry in her purse. I asked her if she had lorazapam in there and she said yes. I just shook my head and walked out. She called my name, but I never checked up. Later in the night I went back in there with her friend and we started talking about the medicine again and the wife said she knew where we was going with this and she did not want to talk about it. I plan to go with her tomorrow when she goes to her regular counselor and hopefully talk about some of her medicine and how she should be taking it. If I can not get any where with him I will either talk to her more or make an appointment with her regular doctor, because from what I have read you should not be taking lorazapam and cymbolta together. 
I know it is just money, but she went on a spending spree while she was high on the medicine and barely remembers it. She did not even know how she paid for the items. I did find the credit card she used, so I know how much she spent which is over 600 dollars. She can not take the items back because she took the tags off, but I plan on having a conversation about this and hopefully she will give up the credit cards. I know I may not have been there all the time for her, but I can not continue to be there for her when she is spending money when she gets high on her medicine. Also whats drive me nuts about this is I was going to spend some money for some household items the other week and she said something about saving money for Christmas for the kids, so I did not spend the money. I feel I am nearing my edge on this, but also feel that she needs me to support her. I know she has her best friend to support her and would probably be fine with just that, but I am her husband and I am not going to let things continue like they have been going. She is not going to continue to hide her self in the bedroom and make everyone hang out in there. It is not right and it has to stop.

I have just finished typing an email to her letting her know how I feel, but I did not send it to her. I saved a draft of it. I was wondering if I should send it. 

The other things that bugs me is I took off Sunday night and tried to take off Monday night because I had not slept much, but the boss wanted me to work and threatened to make me take off sick if I took Monday and Tuesday night off, so I came to work. Well I did not sleep much again today, because of phone calls dealing with the wife and having to go pick her up. I have made the kids sandwiches the past two days and helped cook dinner tonight. The wife wanted take out from a restaurant tonight and everybody wrote down there order and the paper was sitting on the kitchen counter, so I called it in. No one offered to help or go get the food, so I went to get it. I am beginning to feel like I am doing the majority of the things around the house and it is a lot with 4 adults, 4 kids, and 4 dogs in the house. The OW is doing some of the laundry, but I am pretty much the only one that loads and unloads the dishwasher, feed the dogs and fill their water. I went into the spare bathroom tonight and that trash can was full. I have asked the kids to empty trash cans when they are full, but I should not have to ask the adults. It hurts that my wife has her problems and she seems to get everyone to stop their life to help her, but I do good to get someone to give me a hug or say thanks for doing something. I know I maybe should not expect that but when you do most of the things around the house a thanks every know and then would be nice. Heck I even made the OH lunch the other day and not thinking I only made him one sandwich like the kids and the next day when I got ready to pack the kids lunches I was short a sandwich, because he had taken one of the kids sandwiches since he was short one. I had time to make the kid another one, but come on.


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## unsure823

MAJOR UPDATE!!! It hit the fan last night. The OW let her husband know that she was in love with my wife. My wife told me the same thing. Now they are saying they want me to stay. I asked if it was a 3 some or just them 2. They said just them 2. They said they I maybe asked to move into another room. I told them I might could live with all of this but to move me in another room was not going to work. I feel like when that happens I'm a 3rd wheel. I'm pretty much just a handyman to take care of the kids and things around the house. That is no life for me. I asked about me seeing other people if I was moved to another room and they said as long as I don't bring them home. I have asked them both if they want me to move to other room now but neither will say yes or no. I asked the wife if she wanted divorce and she said if I wanted one then I needed to do it because she has enough legal things in her life. I am sitting in a parking lot just to get away and think. I've texted both of them some and wife has talked some but has not responded to my last couple text. Yea I feel it could work as a 3 some but that is not what they want. My wife has not went to her outpatient counseling for 2 days so I'm not sure what that does for her. My wife says she wants to marry the OW one day so I guess I get my answer to a lot of questions. I just need to get mad enough to pack my **** and leave. I just hope that is before I do something stupid. I know how much she did not like that hospital but I feel like that is where I belong. Go ahead guys and let me have it y'all were right all along and it is my fault for not standing up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Go ahead and bring someone over don't ask.


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## Tron

Assume for a moment that this M is over. 

What do you want Unsure? 

Do you want the house and kids? 

Keep in mind that your WW isn't fit to take care of the kids IMO. She can't even take care of herself. She just OD'd for chrissake and needs to be committed for inpatient treatment. 

Get a restraining order and kick the OW out of your house. Make your WW go with her. File and make her start paying you child support. You can do this!

_Edit: You can't make your WW leave the home, but as soon as you get the OW kicked out of the house, your WW will most likely follow her wherever she goes. MAKE IT HAPPEN!_


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## caladan

See if you can get her to go back to work. As it is, they can kick you out of your house and still get you to pay megabucks in Child support.

Edit: Tron was ahead of me, and his idea is even better.


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## LongWalk

The house is yours and your wife's. so number one — tell OW and her husband that they must leave. Go to the police and find an experienced cop tell him you want these people out.

You must get a court order to stop your wife and OW from getting a restraining order against you. You must act quickly as they will almost certainly see kicking you out by making up false charges as the cheapest solution.

If you dither now, your life will get much worse.

If they accuse you of violence, you'll be completely up the creek without a paddle. You think your WW and OW will not lie and conspire? You are wrong. They will say you want hurt OW's children and ruin their true love. Do not kid yourself. You cannot negotiate with them. You must not let them tell you what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

LongWalk said:


> The house is yours and your wife's. so number one — tell OW and her husband that they must leave. Go to the police and find an experienced cop tell him you want these people out.
> 
> You must get a court order to stop your wife and OW from getting a restraining order against you. You must act quickly as they will almost certainly see kicking you out by making up false charges as the cheapest solution.
> 
> If you dither now, your life will get much worse
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Prepare for all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker

I agree with Tron. File the restraining order, kick out everyone who doesn't share your last name. I don't think you can legally kick your wife out of the house, but she'll probably go with the OW right now anyway, so let her. Become super dad and focus on your kids only. Take her off any credit cards you can and keep track of every dollar she is or has spent recently. Sit down and start calling every lawyer in town to ask about pro bono work or discounted rates or payment plans. If your state has a free legal services organization (and I'm guessing it does. In Kansas for example, it's kansaslegal.com) then find it and apply for assistance there. If you have any family or friends that you can reach out to, then do so.

I know this is painful and it sucks. It sounds like you were the only rational person involved in this mess and everyone else selfishly used you and screwed you over. You have to take care of your kids at this point however, as you are the only person they can reliably depend on now.

And if possible, urge her to get a job. Who knows what kind of scheming your wife and the OW have been doing, you may be behind the curve on all this, so don't wait another day. Get started on this now!


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## Tron

LongWalk said:


> The house is yours and your wife's. so number one — tell OW and her husband that they must leave. Go to the police and find an experienced cop tell him you want these people out.
> 
> You must get a court order to stop your wife and OW from getting a restraining order against you. You must act quickly as they will almost certainly see kicking you out by making up false charges as the cheapest solution.
> 
> If you dither now, your life will get much worse.
> 
> If they accuse you of violence, you'll be completely up the creek without a paddle. You think your WW and OW will not lie and conspire? You are wrong. They will say you want hurt OW's children and ruin their true love. Do not kid yourself. You cannot negotiate with them. You must not let them tell you what to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

THIS!

It is time to get a VAR and a lawyer involved. This has gone on long enough. If you don't get on it ASAP you are just asking for a ton of misery.


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## LongWalk

Tron said:


> :iagree:
> 
> THIS!
> 
> It is time to get a VAR and a lawyer involved. This has gone on long enough. * If you don't get on it ASAP you are just asking for a ton of misery*.


:iagree::iagree:

Ton of misery means they sacrifice you with a stone knife and throw you down the steps. Make no mistake Unsure, you need to do a few simple things to protect yourself.

If you discuss and negotiate WW and OW, they will be merciless. You have become an obstacle to their joy and happiness.


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## unsure823

WOW!!! that sure is a wake up call. It is the first day of all of this and I am so tore up I left the house for awhile tonight and even asked if anybody needed anything while I was out. My wife got smart with me and I just left. She then texted me to get her some liquor and I said so you can share it with your lover. She went off the deep end and said f u don't even come home you wanna play shot like that. I told her whats the matter you can't handle the truth and how do you act like everything is normal after u told me u wanted her in bed and not me. She said does that mean u moving out. I'll take that as a yes. You keep saying you want me happy no matter what. So that's a lie to! I said I want you happy, but you are telling me it takes me and your friend to make you happy. Meaning you want to sleep with her and me live there. . She said she knows how she feels and told me what makes her happy. I said yes u want to be with her and me and u just be friends. Then she said it is up to me if I wanted to stay. I told her that they both are special to me but this is hard for me. I want to stay but I want a chance and it will take time. I said I want to come home. She said do what the f I want to do because that is what she does. I did come home and now I am on the couch and asked if I was welcome in there or should I sleep on the couch. I have not gotten a answer from her. 

I can say that from what I am seeing on her. I really need to chose my words wise and really protect myself. I plan on doing a little protection work tomorrow and I hope to update this sometime next week. Thanks for the heads up on all of this.


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## caladan

unsure823 said:


> WOW!!! that sure is a wake up call. It is the first day of all of this and I am so tore up I left the house for awhile tonight and even asked if anybody needed anything while I was out. My wife got smart with me and I just left. She then texted me to get her some liquor and I said so you can share it with your lover. She went off the deep end and said f u don't even come home you wanna play shot like that. I told her whats the matter you can't handle the truth and how do you act like everything is normal after u told me u wanted her in bed and not me. She said does that mean u moving out. I'll take that as a yes. You keep saying you want me happy no matter what. So that's a lie to! I said I want you happy, but you are telling me it takes me and your friend to make you happy. Meaning you want to sleep with her and me live there. . She said she knows how she feels and told me what makes her happy. I said yes u want to be with her and me and u just be friends. Then she said it is up to me if I wanted to stay. I told her that they both are special to me but this is hard for me. I want to stay but I want a chance and it will take time. I said I want to come home. She said do what the f I want to do because that is what she does. I did come home and now I am on the couch and asked if I was welcome in there or should I sleep on the couch. I have not gotten a answer from her.
> 
> I can say that from what I am seeing on her. I really need to chose my words wise and really protect myself. I plan on doing a little protection work tomorrow and I hope to update this sometime next week. Thanks for the heads up on all of this.


Still not listening, still not paying attention Unsure.

I think I'm going to stop following your issues here, it's pointless. This post just shows us how little you've paid attention to us even in this time when you apparently have finally seen the writing on the wall.

I need to ask - do you want (and are you going to accept) our assistance, or are you content with simply informing everyone that you've heard what we've said, you agree we're right, and you're just going to ignore us? The jury is against you at the moment to be honest.


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## unsure823

caladan, if you look back a few post I had stopped updating and I believe cdbaker asked if there was any update, so I decided to update. Yes you and other people on here have gave great advice and I have not listened to it. That is one reason I stopped updating because I felt like all I was doing was keeping a journal here. I was not listening to the advice that was given to me. Maybe I am listening some and maybe I am not listening now, but I felt like someone asking for an update deserved it. This has been a hard road for me. I have a big heart for my wife and to be honest I probably will not move out because I know if I go live alone I will not be happy and probably drink myself to death. I've even told myself if I left I would go check myself in to a hospital some where because that is the only place I would feel safe. It is hard for me to do, but I care about my kids and know that with my job I can not take the kids to live with me if I did move out. I know you are thinking more excuses, but I am just being honest and know I do not have a college degree and can not make the kind of money I make just anywhere. I do not make 6 digits but I make good money and in the industry I am you have to travel and work odd schedules.I would probably have to stay with this industry because that is all I know enough to make good money. Like I have said before I do appreciate all the advice here and the people listening to my problems. It has been help to me in many ways. I will say again that most everyone on here has been right about what is going to happen. I can not say if I would have followed the advice that I could have saved my marriage or been happy, but I was told what was going to happen. I will slow down if not stop posting so you don't have to worry about that unless someone comes on here asking for an update. I do believe other people may need to see that I did not follow the advice and see what happens. Hopefully someone can learn from my mistakes. I have to live with my decisions right or wrong and I have to be the one that continues to think about what I did and feel like it was right.


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## caladan

unsure823 said:


> caladan, if you look back a few post I had stopped updating and I believe cdbaker asked if there was any update, so I decided to update. Yes you and other people on here have gave great advice and I have not listened to it. That is one reason I stopped updating because I felt like all I was doing was keeping a journal here. I was not listening to the advice that was given to me. Maybe I am listening some and maybe I am not listening now, but I felt like someone asking for an update deserved it. This has been a hard road for me. I have a big heart for my wife and to be honest I probably will not move out because I know if I go live alone I will not be happy and probably drink myself to death. I've even told myself if I left I would go check myself in to a hospital some where because that is the only place I would feel safe. It is hard for me to do, but I care about my kids and know that with my job I can not take the kids to live with me if I did move out. I know you are thinking more excuses, but I am just being honest and know I do not have a college degree and can not make the kind of money I make just anywhere. I do not make 6 digits but I make good money and in the industry I am you have to travel and work odd schedules.I would probably have to stay with this industry because that is all I know enough to make good money. Like I have said before I do appreciate all the advice here and the people listening to my problems. It has been help to me in many ways. I will say again that most everyone on here has been right about what is going to happen. I can not say if I would have followed the advice that I could have saved my marriage or been happy, but I was told what was going to happen. I will slow down if not stop posting so you don't have to worry about that unless someone comes on here asking for an update. I do believe other people may need to see that I did not follow the advice and see what happens. Hopefully someone can learn from my mistakes. I have to live with my decisions right or wrong and I have to be the one that continues to think about what I did and feel like it was right.


No - you're missing the point. What I complained about is the constant moving one step forward and two steps back, and then trying to justify it.

Everything we say here is to try and get you to man up, to push your chest forward and get your ish together. Instead you seem determined to constantly reduce yourself, to define yourself as weak and gormless. If you don't believe in yourself, nothing is going to change.

First thing you need to do is stop these posts where you constantly inform us (and yourself) about how weak and pathetic you are. "I will probably not be happy". "I will drink myself to death", "I don't make 6 digits", blah blah. Mate, you're wallowing in self pity, it's almost amusing to watch.

You're a grown man blubbering and weeping, emitting liquid from your eyes and nose, while expecting to be miraculously loved. 

Being loved takes work. Right now, if your posts are anything like the conversations that you have with your wife and the OW, you might as well be delibrately hamstring-ing your relationship.

You want love and respect? Work for it. Start tomorrow morning - with a 2 mile slow run and push-ups. Stuff that makes you try, stuff that makes you sweat. Stuff that makes women look at you differently.

No more asking these people how they feel - if you need to communicate with other people, do so here, or start a blog or try some gardening (wrong weather, but it's something to do).

Let's start by forgetting everything that has happened before and focus on where you want to go from here. Get fit, get active. Get ripped. Get a hobby (or hobbies). Start from there and push forward.

And - they don't get to tell you not to bring anyone over - they already did that (brought each other over). That said, I probably won't bring anyone over either, there simply can't be one rule for you, and another for them.

One more - insist that she goes back to work. Not-negotiable.


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## unsure823

Point very well said caladan. I don't really see the I am in my self pitty, but when you put it that way it makes sense. I am going to be honest in where I would like to be. I see my marriage as over. I want to be with my kids and my wife. It may seem weird but I would gladly stay here if I am happy. I do care for my kids and my wife. The OW I have been friends with for years and care about her. I do not feel that trying to save my marriage is even possible. I just want to be happy. I feel this can be good to have extra money coming in the house to allow me to get out of debit. I did tell the wife the other day no about getting something and she said we can charge it. I said no I am sick of charging things. This is probably the first time I have ever told her no and that I was tired of charging things. We have cards that are in both are names and she had done good with them till she OD'ed and did not remember using them.I plan to man up and heck who knows I may get lucky and get to have women in my life that want to be with me.


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## cdbaker

From your last update, it sounds to me like you are wanting to respond to recent events in the opposite direction. Rather than manning up and either A. Getting out of this mess and protecting your kids or B. Prepare to get out/protect your kids and find that your wife notices the "New You" and wants you back, it sounds like you are going with C: Accepting the role of submissive husband and cuckold. 

For the record, a lot of guys get off on that, and even find happiness. Though from my understanding, they have to start those scenarios from an intense level of communication and love, and you are starting with neither. So I would predict that even that scenario will be short lived as your wife and the OW realize that they don't need you around as the back-up plan, increasingly leaving you in the picture ONLY for the purpose of paying the bills and taking care of the kids needs. Again, some guys seem to be ok with that. Maybe you'll get to watch from time to time if you behave?

I'm not trying to insult, just giving you a little preview of the path you are setting up for yourself. Otherwise, I for one would still like to see updates when you are comfortable with it. We all make choices, and we live by them, I think we all realize that. I also think there are at least a few here like me who are curious as to how this will play out and are willing to offer up a few thoughts along the way.


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## cdbaker

Just saw your last response that came a couple minutes before mine...

Real quick, you won't get to have two women in your life who want to be with you. All you'll end up with are two women who are willing to put up with a cuckold who pays for their needs, cleans up after them and tends to the children. They might be kind/respectful for a while (especially the OW, who likely feels very guilty and is no friend of yours for stealing your wife by the way) but in time that will drop off as well.

You can stand up to her as much as you want at this point. At the end though, if she isn't benefiting from your being around as much as she wants to, she'll just force you to leave. Again, the idea is that as long as you represent a value to her, she'll let you sleep on the couch in a house that you're paying for. If you start standing up to her and not letting her use you anymore, then she'll see no reason to keep you around at all.


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## unsure823

cdbaker you maybe right. I have never doubted anyone one here because I have never been in this situation. Me and the OW was horse playing in the kitchen tonight with no one around and I did kiss her on the lips. It was mostly a peck but she responded with a peck back and did not pull away. The conversation was brought up by the OW tonight about how much she should pay for living here. She has agreed to 250 every other week since she gets paid bi-weekly. My wife said she would love to see this get to the point where we all have a joint and the bills are paid out of that account. I told them I was worried when the kids where grown that I was kicked out and they both said that if things lasted that long that I would not get kicked out. The OW said I may decide to leave before then and the conversation turned to sex and my wife did not seem to want to talk about it. I told them I was playing that card day to day. I think I can be happy with out sex but who knows that may change. Yes this could all get interesting ones the OH moves out. I am sleeping in my bed with both women as of now, but if I am forced to move out of that room I am sure my thoughts will change.

Everyone keeps posting about me being a ****hold. So I feel it is fair to let you all know I have been submissive to my wife for years. It is not like most people think but I do enjoy pain and letting her control things. I am not sure if this will all come into play with this new relationship but we will see. My wife asked last night since I would not mind watching them and not participating if I would feel the same if it was another guy. I said I was not sure. I told her I am weird that way and she seemed to just laugh it off. So I guess me being a sub maybe part of the problem I have manning up but who knows.


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## cdbaker

Yeah I'd say that has a big impact on your inability to "man up" to the situation. I think it's been pretty clear all along that you've been in a female dominated relationship, and that you are submissive to women in general. I personally have no experience in cuckold type relationships (well, I have dabbled as a "bull" with two other couples) but I have read a lot on the subject. My understanding is that these relationships tend to be short term because of communication and maturity issues. If either partner's maturity isn't up to snuff (and from what I can tell, hers, and maybe yours, isn't) or they are unable to communicate at an extremely comfortable and effective level, with an extremely high degree of mutual respect and love, then these relationships will be VERY short term.

Honestly, it sounds like you are fully aware that this "marriage" and/or living arrangement will be very short term, as it seems like all three of you have acknowledged that to each other. You've been explicitly told that you are the 3rd wheel, and that they will only use you going forward. It sounds like you might be comfortable with that. I guess if you fully understand the situation and aren't harboring any unrealistic hopes for improvement, then who are we to say you are doing anything wrong, right?

If that's the case, just throw all hope out the window that you'll be able to ever be viewed as a worthy husband, or loved as such. Women simply can't respect men who behave like women, or weaker than women in this case. It will not be a matter of if, but rather when you will be asked to leave. My thought is that, again unless you really enjoy this roll and can accept/get off on the entire concept, that you'll be better off getting out now, putting yourself back together, and starting over with a new young woman who will love and respect you the way you deserve. (as long as you can man up there as well, or else this whole thing might repeat itself)

Best of luck!


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## unsure823

Well I tried to man up today and failed miserable. I told them I was moving out because I was told there would be 3 way physical relationship. I was already to go home and go somewhere but I got home and wife was there. She hide the keys so I could not leave in anything but my company vehicle. I need my job so I stayed. We got to talking and I let them know it did not feel right if I was not included in being physical. I asked am I suppose to look some where else for it but got no reply. Yea I really have no where to go but I was willing to check myself in somewhere because I don't feel safe being a lone. This all may have accomplished nothing since I'm still in the same bed with them. I was told by wife that sex had been talked about between her and her friend and I need to give them a minute. I'm not sure what they have in mind but hope to find out this week. The OH has moved out so things seem better. I'm not sure what I should have done but did tell wife if I walked out tonight I was not coming back. She tried to turn this saying I was trying to top her and I said this is why it is hard to talk to her because she turns things around and I hung up phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker

Ok, so it sounds like you aren't interested in being a cuckold.

The problem is, you are still ASKING her for things.

This isn't about what she/they will allow for you, or are willing to do for you or how much they're willing to include you or not. You can't be saying, "it does not FEEL right if I am not included in being physical." All they hear is a little boy who is whining about not being allowed to get his **** wet. Women are incapable of respecting that, and if you get anything at all, it'll be out of pity and a desire to keep your paycheck around.

If she hides your keys again, call the police and have them make her return your keys. I'd say it's time to put the house up for sale as well and find your own place for you AND your kids.


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## LongWalk

Unsure,

In all your conversations and negotiations with them you are coming out on the bottom. They outmaneuver you verbally and when they agree to something they do not keep their word. This is not working for you.

What will work for you is action. Cut your wife off financially. Let OW give her money. Let them pay for your food. Do not do the dishes or be the servant at all. Take the kids out and play because it will be good for you emotionally. Don't consult them. Just do it.

Put a VAR under the bed and record their pilow talk. Through those conversations you will learn what they plan to do to manipulate you. Never tell them what you know or how you know it.

File for divorce. Stay in your bed. Be raunchy and good humored. Remember OW is feeding off your nuclear family energy.

If you have things of value secure them elsewhere.


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## cdbaker

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Agreed, agreed, agreed! (With LongWalk)

You know one of the smartest things I ever did in my marriage was a long time ago when I realized that I was an absolute idiot when it came to understanding my wife. I had a close circle of two friends, a man and a woman, who were imploring me to change my approach. I eventually decided, "OK, I don't know what I'm doing. What they are suggesting sounds crazy to me, but what more harm can I possibly do." and I went with their idea full speed, and things improved dramatically for me as a result.

Everything we're saying might sound scary, wrong, confusing, etc. You might be afraid of how it'll hurt their feelings or turn them against you, and it's rare that I would ever suggest taking the opinions of strangers on the forum over your own "1st person" account, but in this case, what have you got to lose?!


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## unsure823

I totally agree. That anything I get from them would be out of pity. I have been thinking that since the conversation happened. I am looking at moving money so the wife will not have access because we are in the negative again and I have to take care of the kids and bills. I totally agree it is way past time for me to man up and yesterday was just what I needed. Yes it hurt but I see in the long run I wil be better and allow me to control my life and not just sit around waiting on them to decide to throw me out. I should not be the one to leave it is my house for me and my kids. I called a crisis line tonight and they pretty much said the something that has been said here. So it is time for me to take my life back and have a say so on how I live.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You know the golden rule: he who has the gold makes the rules


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## unsure823

Longwalk I am guessing you mean I have the money so I get to make the rules. If it was only that simple. LOL!!!


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## cdbaker

You know that comment your wife made about you trying to "top" her just shows that she has no respect for you whatsoever, because while you might be talking about moving on and leaving her to her mess, she interprets that as a manipulative control tactic towards her. Meaning in her view, your entire world revolves around her, and any move you make is done with her in mind, for better or worse. In all fairness, that has been very true, but even when you were discussing leaving her and the marriage, she apparently can't even fathom you stepping up to doing something for yourself without her needs/desires being #1.

If you feel that you do not want to leave the house, then start making things very, very unpleasant for them. For starters, you can have the OW kicked out. You can demand that she leave and call the police if she refuses. She isn't on the mortgage, it is your property, and you are entitled to insist that she leave your property. Your wife disagreeing with you can't make a difference, and the police can help explain that if need by. (And I doubt they'll have much sympathy for her if/when they find out what the situation is, as long as you maintain composure) File for divorce or legal separation and request emergency custody of the kids and temporary residency in the home, asking that she move out of the home. The judge can order that and you have any number of good excuses for why he/she should provide that order. And that can all take place QUICKLY. When I filed for exactly that (divorce, emergency temporary custody of my daughter and residency of the home) I think I had the signed orders back from the judge within one or two business days. The courts will typically rush emergency requests asap, no scheduling required.

Otherwise, yes move all the money to personal accounts that you control alone. Cut her off financially. There aught to be several goals here. First and most importantly to prove to yourself that you control your own destiny, that you are not helpless here, and you are worth the effort. Next, you'd be doing right by your children, who need a stable and sane parent. Third, if you do have any hope of your wife coming to her senses and genuinely wanting you back or respecting you some day, you'd be showing her that you wont' put up with her BS, that you deserve her respect, and that she won't be taking advantage of you any more. Her fantasy world will crumble pretty quickly, I promise you that.

And yeah, when you control the checkbook, that results in quite a bit of power in any situation.


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## LongWalk

cdbaker said:


> You know that comment your wife made about you trying to "top" her just shows that she has no respect for you whatsoever, because while you might be talking about moving on and leaving her to her mess, she interprets that as a manipulative control tactic towards her. Meaning in her view, your entire world revolves around her, and any move you make is done with her in mind, for better or worse. In all fairness, that has been very true, but even when you were discussing leaving her and the marriage, she apparently can't even fathom you stepping up to doing something for yourself without her needs/desires being #1.
> 
> If you feel that you do not want to leave the house, then start making things very, very unpleasant for them. For starters, you can have the OW kicked out. You can demand that she leave and call the police if she refuses. She isn't on the mortgage, it is your property, and you are entitled to insist that she leave your property. Your wife disagreeing with you can't make a difference, and the police can help explain that if need by. (And I doubt they'll have much sympathy for her if/when they find out what the situation is, as long as you maintain composure) File for divorce or legal separation and request emergency custody of the kids and temporary residency in the home, asking that she move out of the home. The judge can order that and you have any number of good excuses for why he/she should provide that order. And that can all take place QUICKLY. When I filed for exactly that (divorce, emergency temporary custody of my daughter and residency of the home) I think I had the signed orders back from the judge within one or two business days. The courts will typically rush emergency requests asap, no scheduling required.
> 
> *Otherwise, yes move all the money to personal accounts that you control alone. Cut her off financially. There aught to be several goals here. First and most importantly to prove to yourself that you control your own destiny, that you are not helpless here, and you are worth the effort.* Next, you'd be doing right by your children, who need a stable and sane parent. Third, if you do have any hope of your wife coming to her senses and genuinely wanting you back or respecting you some day, you'd be showing her that you wont' put up with her BS, that you deserve her respect, and that she won't be taking advantage of you any more. Her fantasy world will crumble pretty quickly, I promise you that.
> 
> *And yeah, when you control the checkbook, that results in quite a bit of power in any situation.*


You understood me, Unsure.

The OW and your wife have not driven you away because they need your money and babysitting. Cutoff the money ASAP.

Don't talk with them, they run circles round you. If they ask to you agree to something, say you'll think about it. Come to TAM, get your nads tanked up and go back and get what is right for you and your kids.


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## cdbaker

LongWalk said:


> You understood me, Unsure.
> 
> The OW and your wife have not driven you away because they need your money and babysitting. Cutoff the money ASAP.
> 
> *Don't talk with they run circles round you. If they ask to you agree to something, say you'll think about it. Come to TAM, get your nads tanked up and go back and get what is right for you and your kids.*


Bolded for emphasis!


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## unsure823

Long road still ahead of me. When I woke up today the wife was getting ready to go to her counselor. She had seen a few things I had posted on facebook and realized that this was not going to work. She said she had to make a decision and it was going to hurt someone. She said something about me going to counselor and I said I was beyond that and left it at that. She said she did not want to talk, so I left her be. She left for her counselor and I made up my mind I was going to leave for the long weekend. She texted me when she got out of counseling and said she was ok, but needed time if that was ok. I told her no that I was getting ready to leave out of town for the weekend. She said ok she would be home soon. She said she wanted to talk and I said that I did not feel like talking. She said she guess she had her answer then. I said answer to what. She said she had her wedding band on and I said rings did not mean much to me since they had not been worn for so long. She then said she would be home ASAP and I said ok. She proceeded to tell me she did not want to see me and for me to leave before she got home. I said fine and proceeded to tell the kids I was running some erands and mom would be home soon. She texted me back saying she loved me and I waited about replying. I then asked her if she wanted me to leave and she said she would be home soon. She wanted to let me know that she has decided to work on our marriage. I asked if she still wanted me to leave and she said it was up to me. I told her to take some time and I would be here. She said she was going to coach store since she had a $50 dollor coupon for them. I told her not to spend much since I had the bills caught up. She said she would let me know before she spent any money. I said ok. She went to coach store and only spent $10. I said good then she said she was headed home. I was here when she got home and she said she would tell her friend tonight about her decision. Her friend got home and they talked for a few hours in the bedroom and I feed the kids. She is going to start EMDR and wants me to start seeing her counselor while she is doing EMDR since her counselor will not see her while doing EMDR and then afterwards we could start doing marriage counselor. Of course her friend took it hard and tried to turn the tables on me because of some things I said. I later went in there and talked to both of them, because I had nothing to hide. Her friend was still trying to turn things on me, but I was able to turn them back in a positive way for me.For now it sounds like my wife wants to work on our marriage. All I can do is hope this is true and we can do counseling together. I will start seeing the counselor next week hopefully and start on some of my issues and then we will do marriage counseling. I know I still have a long road ahead of me, but I feel this is a start.


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## LongWalk

Good. You need see her stick to the program. BFF should be making plans to leave.


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## cdbaker

Unsure, has there been any updates since last week?

I've gotta say, I'm concerned that you may be letting her off the hook a little too easy on this one. I mean, she went back and forth and changed her mind repeatedly in a single afternoon before officially saying that she would work on the marriage. That just doesn't sound very confident or committed at all if you ask me. I'm not saying you should kick her out or move out right now, after the fact, but you need to stay vigilent as ever. You've probably earned some respect points just for verbally standing up to her that day, so don't lose them by backing down to her demands or giving her "friend" even an inch of compassion at this point.

As LongWalk said, the "friend" needs to be gone, asap, immediately. You really just need to ensure this poisonous woman and her husband are out of both of your lives forever. Absolutely no contact. Can your wife agree and commit to that? (It doesn't sound like you insisted on that...)


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## unsure823

Well things are just kind of riding along I would say. I have not forced the OW out. I have backed off from the OW which seems odd at times, but know this is something I must do. She created a mess the first couple of days by sitting around crying. I have let my wife know more of how I feel which I learned real quick was a mistake. She said that me being negative did not make her feel like she had made the right choice. She seems worried about me, but at the same time is still seeming like it is her world and wants control everything. I have moved enough money for bills into an account that I only use. I told the wife and she seemed fine with it. My wife said the OW can not believe that she is giving me another chance. I asked the wife why she picked me and all she really says is she loves me, we are married and have a family together. I am sorry but that is not the response I am looking for. I need to her more of how she likes me and what she likes about me. She has also told me she is not ready to jump back into sex. I took that as her not wanting sex. I did get caught taking care of my self to some things online and she asked why. I told her she did not want sex, so I was taking care of myself. She did not like that, but she did not argue to much about the subject. She thinks I would still do that if she was giving me sex, but I would not. Either way this is not the big issue in this relationship. The OW did say she felt like she was on a two year plan to get her life straight. This tells me she may stay in the house for two years. I have told the wife that I feel like I am in competition with the other woman. I can not take the wife out without the OW and we do everything together. If anything the OW and my wife spend more time alone then I do. I seem to get stuck at the house with all the kids, while they go grocery shopping and getting things for the kids. They are both going to the tanning bed now and go together most of the time, so I have the kids then. 
I do feel like I have made a little progress but there is still a long road. I do not feel like the wife is ready to cut all ties with the OW. I have not insisted on that, but I do agree that it would be the best thing and if I told her that and she did not do it then I guess that would really let me know she is not willing to work on me and her. I agree it is confusing with her going back and forth. If she came to me and said she changed her mind again I would be gone. She has continued to wear her wedding band which I guess does stand for something, but I also seen how easy it comes off, so I do not trust the band like I use tf course winter is here and she does not seem to be wearing the clothes that she was wearing. She has not been going partying and drinking like she was and even told me today that she knows that what she done with her friend is cheating, but felt like I was cheating last night. I did not agree or disagree but I do feel I have a right to release myself since she is not willing to help. I am not saying I should be with someone to do this, but if she is not going to help I can take care of it. 
My wife told her counselor she wants to do the EMDR ASAP. When she starts that I am suppose to be able to start seeing her counselor, but I am not sure that I want to do that. After her EMDR we are suppose to start going together to the counselor. I am also not sure about that. I feel maybe we need to go to a neutral counselor. I do need a counselor and do like hers, but don't feel I need to see him since the wife has been seeing him for so long.


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## cdbaker

Ok... gosh...

Is she still involved sexually or romantically with the OW in any way?

What excuses have been provided for why OW can't move out immediately or perhaps within a week or so? And who is providing those excuses, your wife or the OW?

Why on earth haven't you insisted on the OW moving out?!

Has your wife kept her word on any of the promises she's made to you in the last month? Staying away from alcohol and/or drugs, going to therapy regularly, finding a job?


It seems pretty obvious to me that you earned yourself the tiniest bit of respect a week or so ago when you stood up to her and insisted that you were finished with her, and even that one small stand was enough to cause her to change course completely. Then you went right back to your old ways and that tiny bit of respect you earned went right back out the window. Here are some examples of how you did that:

Asking your wife why she picked you: This screams insecurity, lack of confidence, and more or less begging for her to pat you on the head and say good boy.

Your wife sharing with you that the OW can't believe you've been given another chance: Her way of trying to make you feel lucky to still be allowed to stay in your home. It also shows that the OW means as much to your wife as she did before. This is manipulation.

Telling your wife that you feel like you are in competition with OW: Well of course you do, but if that comment isn't accompanied by a demand that she move out immediately, then it comes across as you whining for affection. She won't feel any more inclined to change that situation in the slightest.

Her comparing her adultery to your masturbating: This is her way of trying to shed some of her own guilt, manipulate you into being more understanding/accepting of her affair, and ultimately increase her level of control over you. After all, you'll either concur and stop releasing yourself (making you even more of a cuckold than you already are) or you'll continue and she won't feel more entitled than ever to cheat on you. Masturbating and full-on illicit sex with other people outside of a marriage are not even remotely the same thing, and she darn well knows that.

Allowing the wife to spend more time with OW: By not steadfastly making this unacceptable, you are approving it without saying a word. Allowing OW on your outings with your wife and allowing them to have their own alone, it all shows that you'll do nothing to stand in their way, so why would either one of them part on their own?

Seriously man, you know what you need to do, and you know that things aren't going to get any better for you in the slightest unless you do something to make that happen. What's stopping you?


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## unsure823

cdbaker, I agree with everything you say. I guess the main thing that stops me from doing what I should do is because I am a nice guy. I always have been. I was told early on by women I was more like a big brother to them. They would date me for that reason and I guess it all really makes since now. 

The excuses for the OW not moving out are coming from my wife and OW. They say she will have to move in with husband, because she has no money and no friends or family she can move in with in our town. 

I have noticed the wife has started back on her drugs that she OD'd on. I thought maybe that was a big wake up call for her, but I guess not. She never stopped drinking which I guess I never insisted on.

I do agree that until I put my foot down that nothing will change. I am afraid of putting my foot down, because I feel like the wife will leave me if I do. I guess that would mean that it was meant to happen anyway. 

I am not sure what my next move will be. I am worried about myself at this point and afraid of my next move. My wife is slowly killing me and what little fight I have left in me. I am not sure how long my fight will last and I am getting to the point where I might snap and just pack my **** and leave. I am really believing I should have left for the long holiday weekend and seen what happened. I guess that is in the past and not much I can do about it now, but I do have a couple of weeks off around Christmas that I guess I could just disappear and see where things go from there. 

I have got to the point where I am not talking things over with the OW because when I do she seems to turn everything I do or say into something negative, which I guess I expect since she probably still wants me out of the picture so her and my wife can live together.


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## cdbaker

Dude, it looks like I am the only one left still commenting here because everyone else has seemingly given up and I can't really blame them.

Of course the OW turns everything you do and say into a negative and tries to paint you in a negative light, because she absolutely does want you out of the picture. You are in the way. Any friendly words or moments she has shared with you in the past were lies used in order to gain your trust so that she could better use you.

You said it, nothing will change until you put your foot down. I would say that your wife is already 99% lost anyway, so you really have NOTHING to lose by changing course and doing everything in your legal power to kick them both out. At the VERY LEAST you can kick the OW out, show that you aren't going to take the BS anymore, and see where your wife really stands. You owe this scummy woman absolutely nothing.

In fact, here is my point by point suggestions for what you should do:

1. Kick the OW out immediately. Give her an hour to pack her stuff or you can pack it for her. Accept no excuses, they are all irrelevant.
2. Tell your wife that unless she can begin NC with the OW, cease her drug and alcohol use, and find a job, then she should join the OW in leaving too. 
3. (Assuming your wife doesn't agree to your expectations, which I am 95% certain she won't) If you haven't done so, move all of the money into individual accounts only. Do not financially support her. Change the locks on your doors and do not give her a key.
4. Find a lawyer and file for divorce. (Remember, divorce takes several months at least in most states, so she'll have time to convince you otherwise if she wants to) Do not agree to leave the home, especially not without your kids. As part of the divorce petitions, request emergency temporary custody of the kids and the home based on your wife's drug/alcohol use and extreme behavior. This typically can get approved in a day or two and is in place until a hearing can be scheduled by the courts.
5. Make arrangements for the well-being of the kids when you have to work via trusted family or friends if need by. Maybe your mother or sister can come visit for a week or two to help out. Try to arrange for more family friendly working hours at your job if possible, otherwise keep your ear open for other job opportunities.
6. Lastly, focus on yourself! Work out, eat better, enjoy time doing the things you enjoy, etc. 

Yes you are a nice guy, and over time even good women will get to the point of treating nice guys terribly. This is because women by nature push us constantly. They want to know that their man is willing to stand up to them, to stand up for anything and be firm when need be. When they push and we nice guy's step back, they lose a bit of respect and attraction for us each time, but the consolation prize is that they got whatever it is they were pushing for. Maybe it's a gift, fewer responsibilities, etc. In time however, they push and expect more and more while respecting and loving you less and less. Eventually you've got what you have now. Your wife using you and not caring about your needs/feelings in the slightest because you have programed her to be that way, while other women see you and imagine you as this really nice guy but one they would never actually want to date.

So DO SOMETHING about it already!!!


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## unsure823

Cdbaker you have been right from the beginning. I can see why most people have given up on this because to be honest I am at the point where I have pretty much given up. The other day we got into a dispute over something small but it snowballed and I decided to leave she told me if I left it was over. I left anyway and when I pulled out of the driveway I decided then I had wrote my death certificate. I headed to wear I planned but only made it a few miles and turned around and came home. We talked about the dispute and she told me not to leave like that to many times or she would have my stuff packed for me. She told me that when I left she told her friend that she should just pack my stuff then but she did not. I guess what I am saying is I really feel like I am seeing more and more how she is treating me and has no respect for me. I am usually the one that show affection and she shows little if any especially toward me. I also told her the other day I needed help and she said she would call around for a counselor or psychologist for me but she did not follow through. I am really getting to the point I don't want either and could give a hoot how this ends. I have given up on myself so why should people care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Do you own the house?
Why should you move out?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## unsure823

I am paying a mortgage on the house. I think the question is why should I stay. The two women would be happy together and I believe the kids would do just fine with out me. I have already seen that the OW children seem to do ok without seeing their dad but maybe once a week and I figure as time goes by it will be longer between times that they see him. I figure my children would be about the same way. They might miss me at first but as time goes by they will be fine without me. The two women sure don't need me around and heck my wife has even said it is hard for her to try with my negativity. I figure if I am gone she can move on with her life and so can my children and every one else. I feel like as long as things are like they are we are all in a holding pattern waiting on some one to make a move or a screw up to change things. I figure I could be the one to change things since I do not seem to fit in any where in the picture of my family besides being a handy man and that is not the kind of life I want for my self.


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## cdbaker

Don't delude yourself into believing that your kids will be better off in any way shape or form without you being in the picture. Further, don't believe that your wife can do a better job raising your kids alone (or with someone else) than you can, because as unstable as you are right now, I still think you're more capable of being a better parent to them than she is at this point. And seriously, don't concern yourself with your wife and the other woman's happiness. You seem to offer "The two women would be happy together" as a reason for why you should leave, as if their happiness is what is most important here.

Order the other woman to leave immediately, and gently encourage your wife to do so as well. Then file for divorce. Again, you can't really know what all that will change but it WILL change your wife's view of you for the better, you will earn her respect only when you stand up to her, but more importantly you'll find that your own self-respect will return as well!


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## LongWalk

Leaving your children = betrayal.

Cut off all money to your wife. Does she pay the bills?

Is OW paying rent? Tell her to pay you, not your wife.

You need to seek sole custody of your children. 

Your wife, is capable loving you? I doubt she loves OW. She is simply absorbing OW's endless affirmation. OW sees your wife as a project. She tells your wife that she special.

If you leave, you will be scr*wed in court

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## cdbaker

LongWalk said:


> Leaving your children = betrayal.
> 
> Cut off all money to your wife. Does she pay the bills?
> 
> Is OW paying rent? Tell her to pay you, not your wife.
> 
> You need to seek sole custody of your children.
> 
> Your wife, is capable loving you? I doubt she loves OW. She is simply absorbing OW's endless affirmation. OW sees your wife as a project. She tells your wife that she special.
> 
> If you leave, you will scr*wed in court
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


I agree with everything said above. With that said, I think the OP is viewing his only options as being A. Stay in this abusive, hopeless situation or B. Off himself.

If the OP doesn't value his own life, I really hope he'll be able to see what that will do to his kids. I've often told those who are actively cheating on their spouses that their behavior is the 2nd most selfish and hurtful thing you could do to a loved one, current or former. Committing suicide would be the worst. I don't say that to throw more pressure onto the OP or create more guilt or anything like that.


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## cdbaker

Well, it's been about three weeks, including the holidays. Has there been any update worth mentioning?


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## unsure823

No update really worth mentioning. I have split my check where money for bills goes to a seep rate account. She has decided to sale her 401k to payoff credit cards. I did come off medicine for about 4 weeks and felt good but decided I needed to get back on them and now I have the thought of ending my life again. I plan to see doctor soon to see about different medicine. I am not seeing a phycologist because I did not like the first few and the others on my medical plan are a little drive away. I know I need one but not sure where to turn. The wife is still having plenty if time with friend and yes I am still the babysitter. I guess that bothers me more than anything. She says she wants me there but her actions don't prove it so I feel the need to do something but not sure what. I know I don't want to move out and it is hard to tell others to move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Are you still running? Run for the endorphin high and you will not need the medication. Get yourself a girlfriend. 

Committing suicide will just destroy your children, so stop thinking about about it.


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## caladan

I have to ask - what gain do you find in ending your life? Sit up brother, what sort of surrender move is that?


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## turnera

Call 911.


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## unsure823

I found out last night the wife said she felt like she had to choose between me and the OW. I'm done playing games. I have taken off work and took a personal car instead of my work vehicle and I don't know where I am going or do I know what I'm doing but I don't want to be at home and could care less if I make it somewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

How about you drive to a hospital?


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## unsure823

Update. Well things did not work out the day I last posted. I drove around till about 1:45 p.m. and decided to take some pills I had on me. It did not take long and I passed out. I was texting the OW and told her I took the pills, she called 911 and they found me. I was taken to the hospital and then transferred to a mental hospital. I spent 5 days in there and came out with a new outlook on life. I know it was not go to be in that place the way I got there, but I am glad I went. I have different medicine I am taking and have an appointment to see another counselor Thursday. This place has more than one counselor, so hopefully I can find one I like. I have told the OW she needs to move out. I am not sure how long that will take, but my wife does agree that we can not really try until she moves out. My wife seems to be showing me more affection and is trying. She has sold her 401K from her old job and is using it to pay off our debt. Doing this is going to possible let me get my old boat back. If not that boat I will be getting another one soon. I plan to take more time with my kids fishing and time for me fishing. If I do not take care of myself I can not be around for anyone. My wife has said that we will do IC and JC when we both feel we are ready for JC. I also have realized that I have a a lot of people for my support group and I have to use them. I have had a few people tell me they can see in my skin color that I am feeling better and I sure feel it.


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## turnera

I'm glad you went, too. Thanks for letting us know you're ok. No woman is worth killing yourself for.


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## unsure823

Thanks turnera. My biggest problem I feel like now is going from all about me to all about my family now I feel like I have to find the middle. I have seen a counselor and plan to go back.It is just hard to get into one with my work schedule. I figured out tonight I am going to have to give up some family time to see my counselor and take care of my self.I am lexapro as a daily med and have nothing to take for an anxiety attack but I have not had one since I have been home. I have had a few mild cases but nothing I have not been able to talk to someone about and get over. I have a great support system and just have to open up to them and us them because they all are there for me.


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## turnera

Your mental and physical help are the most important things right now. If you're not healthy, you can't be around for your family at all. Focus the next 6 months on you; your family will be fine while you do this.

And PLEASE do let your support system help you. People want to help other people. Let them.


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## LongWalk

That was a trial. Lucky you didn't have handgun.


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## unsure823

Just an update. I got lucky and bought the same boat back. I have also gotten me another towing vehicle, which I sold when I sold the boat. The other women is looking for a place to move to. The counselor I am seeing now is good, just wish I could see her more often. It is about every other week. Things have been good with me and the wife. We still have our problems, but she asked the other day when we was starting marriage counseling. I said when ever and she said we are good, just she feels like it would help and I agreed. I have taken my family twice on the boat and the wife and me went the other week by ourselves. I still fight the thoughts and not sure how to get them out of my head, but know I can talk to people and things look better.


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## turnera

So...she has TOLD you she wants to see a MC. It is on YOU to make that happen now. 

Glad you're doing better. Next time you're in IC, ask the IC for some homework for you to do, to practice every day between visits.


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## caladan

unsure823 said:


> Just an update. I got lucky and bought the same boat back. I have also gotten me another towing vehicle, which I sold when I sold the boat. The other women is looking for a place to move to. The counselor I am seeing now is good, just wish I could see her more often. It is about every other week. Things have been good with me and the wife. We still have our problems, but she asked the other day when we was starting marriage counseling. I said when ever and she said we are good, just she feels like it would help and I agreed. I have taken my family twice on the boat and the wife and me went the other week by ourselves. I still fight the thoughts and not sure how to get them out of my head, but know I can talk to people and things look better.


I am soo glad to hear from you again brother. Glad to hear you sound more positive. Keep us updated.


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## unsure823

I am not sure if it is on me to make the marriage counseling happen or not. I do agree it would help, but not sure where things might lead. I do have some issues that we have talked about before, but things have not changed. I know I have changed and do not want to lose my family, so I do not want to go back to just being me and ignoring my family. I enjoy time with my kids and my wife.

I have had a few counselors send me home with home work, but did not much like it. I would not mind suggestions on things I need to work on, but to say it is homework and making me write down things can be a lot of work, which I am willing to do the work, but I want some input and feedback rather than just me doing homework. That is what I got before was a counselor saying do this this week ok glad you completed it so do this this week.


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## turnera

Well, not all homework is done so you can get a grade on it.

Especially in counseling. It's done so it has AN EFFECT on you. IME, that's the plan. Make you look at ABC and get you thinking about it. Next time, make you think about XYZ. Next time, have you practice OPQ. Next time, do that again.

It's really no different from a physical therapist. I went to one for 6 sessions for my arthritis, learned the exercises and was sent home to continue them. When I went back to the doctor, she asked how the exercises were going; I said I'd finished them. She laughed and said, 'oh no, you haven't! You're stuck with them! Unless you find a cure for arthritis, you need those exercises done at home to strengthen your body against what arthritis is going to do to you.'

The exercises they give you are so that you rewire your brain. And that doesn't happen without practice. Which is why I told you to get the homework. You have to practice your brain, just like my DD23 has to practice her piano solos, to get the change/improvement ingrained into your head, into your personality.


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## unsure823

Turnera, I appreciate the input and I do need to rewire my brain, because I do still fight those thoughts. It is funny how one little thing can change the way your brain thinks, but to get back to where you were takes a lot of work. I need to get there. I am willing to work on what ever it takes to get there I was happy, but can't say the same as of now. I do have good days, but some days I struggle to not think negative all the time.


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## turnera

Get this book and learn how to rewire your brain.


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## cdbaker

Turnera is absolutely right. I know in the moment it might not feel right, you might mentally/emotionally try to rationalize it away by thinking, "Oh I've got this, it's not big deal. I don't need to fill out this homework paper to get it, or perform these exercises. I get the point." because that is probably NOT what you're actually supposed to get out of them.

As for it being your responsibility for setting up the marriage counseling, I think what Turnera meant is that she has long expressed disinterest in MC but now that she has said that she is willing, you should step up to make it happen. Not saying it's the husband's job, but if MC could be helpful for you both and she's not motivated enough to make it happen on her own, then you should step up and make it happen.


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## unsure823

I have to agree that I will step up and find us a marriage counselor. Me and the wife did fish one day together but she spent most of her time on the phone. I have asked her twice to go again and one time was on short notice but this time I asked on Monday and got no reply. I asked again on Wednesday and she said she had other plans. I'm beginning to think I'm not happy in this marriage but I don't want to leave because I'm scared I want be happy after leaving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Does she even like fishing?

And you DO have the right to say 'hon, please put the phone away when you're with me.'


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## cdbaker

Unsure: You responded that you agreed with us, then immediately talked about what sounds like an unsatisfactory fishing trip with her.

What we want to hear (for your sake!) is what you are proactively doing to fix the situation. Not the things that you're doing that aren't helping the situation, and then how you aren't happy that things aren't getting better. They aren't going to get better if you don't actually do anything to make them better.

It's been over two weeks since your wife said she'd be willing to attend marriage counseling with you, but left it to you to set it up. Have you or have you not scheduled an appointment? If you haven't, all you're doing is showing her that you aren't actually unhappy with the marriage at all and that she should continue to do whatever she wants.


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## unsure823

Just wondering if anyone cared for an update?


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## turnera

Of course!


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## unsure823

I guess you could say I still have not grown a set. The other woman is still here and suppose to move out the end of this month. My wife disappeared again about 1 month ago and then seemed to try to commit suicide. I had to call the law to find her and they took her to the hospital. My wife is now in a place for 28 days because she knows she has a problem with being dependent on her medicine. She put her self in there, so she can check herself out at anytime. She even tried to leave after a few days, but I guess you could say this is one time a had a set. I went to get her and then told her that she needed to stay. She knew if she came home she would do the same thing over and be hibernating in the bedroom with her drugs. She says she really wants to work on us when she gets out and even has said she will stop some of her counseling for us to do marriage counseling. I did try to setup that up before she tried suicide, but she said it was to much for her at the time. I guess this is the short version,but if you want more details or have questions feel free to ask. 

I am at the point I really want the other woman to leave, but feel I can't get her to leave, because I need the help with the children. She has tried to apologize to me, but I feel like all she was doing was trying to make me feel better. I don't think she is really sorry for what she has done to my family and would be with my wife in a heart beat. My wife has suggested I start reading the book boundaries, so I will start reading it this weekend.


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## turnera

Also read NMMNG. Start talking to the woman about leaving. Set up a time frame for when you want her gone. Give her a little time to get her ducks in a row.


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## cdbaker

Hey Unsure, has there been any update as of late?


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## unsure823

I know long time no update. I have an email address just for this and just thought about it and seen a couple of new post. Here is an update. The OW has moved out unfortunately just a few blocks away. I finally got to the point I was moving on. I went to a lawyer and filed the papers and actually had a date with another woman. I know it was soon but I just wanted some one to enjoy company. Of course having kids I had to make sure the wife would be there for the kids.So she knew I had a date and the girl I was going to see canceled on me and rescheduled for another day. In the mean time the wife calls begging for me to stay. It took a little bit but I was a sucker and said I would try. I have continued to enforce rules that I would not normally have put down. She is having little contact with the other woman. The other woman knows I am over all this and not so much friends anymore. My wife has went back to work, but is not doing much around the house. I have been on the road working the past few weeks, but I can monitor the house through cams we have at the house, so I know the OW is not there. I still fight my depression some days and being out of town makes it worse since I can not see my counselor. We have talked about starting marriage counseling again, but that is hard to do being out of town. I have told the wife I am tired of fighting for her and refuse to fight for her anymore. If she wants to stay that is fine, but I am not going to fight if she wants to leave. I guess that is about all for now, but feel free to ask questions or make comments.


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## 3Xnocharm

unsure823 said:


> I know long time no update. I have an email address just for this and just thought about it and seen a couple of new post. Here is an update. The OW has moved out unfortunately just a few blocks away. I finally got to the point I was moving on. I went to a lawyer and filed the papers and actually had a date with another woman. I know it was soon but I just wanted some one to enjoy company. Of course having kids I had to make sure the wife would be there for the kids.So she knew I had a date and the girl I was going to see canceled on me and rescheduled for another day. In the mean time the wife calls begging for me to stay. It took a little bit but I was a sucker and said I would try. I have continued to enforce rules that I would not normally have put down. She is having little contact with the other woman. The other woman knows I am over all this and not so much friends anymore. My wife has went back to work, but is not doing much around the house. I have been on the road working the past few weeks, but I can monitor the house through cams we have at the house, so I know the OW is not there. I still fight my depression some days and being out of town makes it worse since I can not see my counselor. We have talked about starting marriage counseling again, but that is hard to do being out of town. I have told the wife I am tired of fighting for her and refuse to fight for her anymore. If she wants to stay that is fine, but I am not going to fight if she wants to leave. I guess that is about all for now, but feel free to ask questions or make comments.


Why are you keeping yourself in this ridiculous, miserable situation? And why wait for HER to pull the trigger on this? Why is it up to her, and what SHE wants?? Take control of your life, and end this, once and for all.


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## turnera

Why have you not demanded X amount of housework to be done?


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## LongWalk

Your wife and OW no longer feel sexual passion. Their love burned out. But does your wife express desire for you?


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## unsure823

She seems to have more deisre for me know then ever. Maybe it is a front I don't know. If I bail out now I look like the bad person, because she is claiming to try so hard. I guess I could just bail out of the whole thing, but I am not sure I would be happy that way. I would not like putting my kids through that and I don't know what it would bring for me.Damn don't know why I ever agreed to try.


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## cdbaker

Hold on hold on. Stop second guessing yourself so much. So much of this is about setting boundaries and expectations, clearly stating the consequences of breaking boundaries or not meeting those expectations, and then following through with them. I don't think there is anything wrong with giving her a chance, but only if you've clearly laid down the law. Ultimately, it's imperative that she not see you as weak, or flexible in this matter. The moment she thinks she can get away with whatever it is that she wants, is the moment everything returns to the way it was.

I'm guessing you probably didn't do a very good job of laying down the boundaries and expectations before agreeing to try again. I also understand your point about how upping and leaving now, seemingly out of the blue for no apparent *new* reason would make you out to be a bad person. You can still fix it, you'll just need to come home from work on day, explain how you've been thinking a lot about things and you are just as suspicious as ever that the marriage won't be salvageable, but if she wants to give it a try, you'll be willing to consider it under the terms you lay out for the marriage. (Terms = Boundaries/Expectations)

It's probably best to write them all down. Anything you can think of that you need to see happen. I'm thinking things like:

1. Absolutely no contact with the OW, her husband/ex-husband, etc. None. No communication of any kind, don't even wave back if she see's you driving by, simply ignore/delete/block any messages from her, etc. No exceptions. Have her write an NC e-mail/FB message from her personal account and let that be the last approved contact.
2. Depending on your work schedule vs. hers, an equitable balance of household/child rearing responsibilities will be maintained. Maybe it's a 70/30 split, or 50/50 even, whichever.
3. You get access to absolutely all of her online accounts, her cell phone, her computer, etc, including the ability to install a key logger if you like.
4. You find a GOOD MC in the area and she commits to seeing him/her with or without you as often as you determine is necessary.

It isn't about punishing her, it's about setting things right, and making it clear to her that you will not put up with her nonsense ever again.

Other thoughts/questions:

You mentioned that you did get a lawyer and file for divorce. What happened with that after your wife convinced you to give her another chance? Is that still in process for the time being, or did you drop the case? Do you still have that lawyer on retainer?

I'm curious as to how everything with the other woman ultimately fell apart. Did you kick her out? Did you make your wife kick her out? You mention that your wife has very little contact with her... What kind of contact have they continued to have and do you have a way to know what kind of discussions they have? Do you have a key logger on her computer/phone?

I know for me it would make me very nervous working a job away from home for extended periods if my home situation were like this. I'd just find it nearly impossible to trust that my wife is "being good" for so long with such easy opportunities to break her promises without fear of getting caught. Is there any way you can change jobs or shifts in some form to be home every day?

Lastly, your most recent response shows you questioning your ability to do anything out of the same fears you had in 2014. Fears that it sounds like you were able to overcome before when you filed for divorce and arranged a date with another woman. Don't backtrack now, and realize that if you ultimately have to resume the divorce plans that you'll be doing what is in the best interest of the kids!


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## turnera

unsure823 said:


> She seems to have more deisre for me know then ever. Maybe it is a front I don't know. If I bail out now I look like the bad person, because she is claiming to try so hard. I guess I could just bail out of the whole thing, but I am not sure I would be happy that way. I would not like putting my kids through that and I don't know what it would bring for me.Damn don't know why I ever agreed to try.


Is she working full time?


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## cdbaker

Hey Unsure, I thought I would see if there has been any update?


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