# Coping with separation



## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

Forgive me for the long winded post....

My wife (37 yrs old) and I (44 yrs old) have been married 13.5 years and have a 5 year son. Our childless marriage was pleasantly good, aside your normal differences. But after our son was born, these last 5 years have been rocky to say the least. 

Last year my wife brought of the discussion of having a second child. Although I was supportive of the idea, I did not want to commit to it because we have some unresolved issues that need to be address before I could be all-in on the idea. The unresolved issues I felt needed to be addressed before I could commit were our marital disconnection and her insensitivities with my family being an integral part in our son's life (basically control issues). Understanding I was not getting any younger, even to the point of not wanting another child, I really didn't want to bring another child into what I felt was a marriage in trouble. Needless to say, that conversation did not go well. She accused me of wanting out of the marriage and wanting to have a child with someone else. (non-sense)

Long story short, after moving into the guest room for 6 weeks and wouldn't speak to me or reconcile our differences, I caught her searching for an apartment to rent. When I confronted her about it, we got into a very heated argument and the last thing she said was "I'm done with you!". Of course my ego was not going to allow her to disrespect me in this manner, so I went out on few dates with a co-worker. While being with her help distract me form the problems at home, I realized I didn't see a long term future with her. I stop seeing her and no intimate contact was involved during this period, but unfortunately my wife already found out about her and things turn bad to worst. 

My wife took our son to spend the summer at my in-laws (which is normal) and we decided to try to reconcile. The summer alone help tremendously as it allowed us to focus on our marriage without the distraction of parenting. 1 year later, I’m feeling the same behavioral patterns all over again (no affection, very little intimacy, and no husband/wife time). After another heated argument, she took our son to my in-laws for the summer (normal), came home and she moved out.

Although I think this separation is good for us so we could work on the problems plaguing our marriage, but it’s been 3 weeks now and my wife seems to be more content being separated and not wanting to work on the road to reconciliation in resolving our problems. We met up for dinner for father’s day. Started out well, but ended after I addressed concerns about what I felt was her lack of motivation to work on fixing our marriage. The conversation ended when I press her on her thoughts about divorce. She responded “Divorce is just a piece of paper!” I responded, “If that’s how you feel, why not move forward to making it legal?” She didn’t have a response and I haven’t seen her since. We still talk (once a day), but our conversations are very short and distant.

I feel she is very resentful and hurtful towards me about what she perceives are problems I created. In some part, I do shoulder the blame, but what I have is very little patience in not having a clear direction. I make life/death decision on my job every time I go to work and it comes natural, but for some reason, making a decisive action about my marriage is befuddling. On one hand, when I think about pulling the trigger to get divorce, it brings a sense of resolve, but the pain doesn’t go away. On the other hand, my will prevents me from taking that route because I have such an overwhelming hope our marriage can be save.

Before the question is asked, I’m 100% confident she has never cheated. I am 98% confident she is not currently involved with anyone, but her occasional distant behavior and our separation are slowly eroding that trust. We don’t have any agreement in place about dating other people. I don’t want to date other people as it clouds an already complicated situation and she says she’s not interested of dating other people because her primary goal, “concentrate on picking up the pieces of her shatter life”. She does get irritated when I bring up the subject, but I think it’s because I bring up the subject without getting a resolute answer and I think it’s a defensive mechanism that makes her think I’m telling her how to conduct her life. IDK.

I’m at the point of being tired of being in limbo. I want to save my marriage, but if divorce is in my future (although I hate the idea), at least I can move forward. I read the “180-list”, but I find myself breaking rule #2 (I call once a day) because I feel the lack of communication will cause more harm than good. After our last meeting, I decided to adhere to rule #9. I can easily comply with rule #5, if I have a clear sense of direction (reconciliation or divorce). I’m getting closer to breaking #10, but I don’t think it’s necessary just yet. Frankly, I feel this list prepares one for a less painful divorce.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I agree with you about the 180. I've been having a really hard time with it myself. It sounds like you could benefit from some marriage counseling, if she will go. If not (or even in addition), some counseling for yourself. The 180 is to help you heal from the problems in the marriage. However, I believe the 180 focuses on infidelity, so some pieces probably won't apply to your situation. 

Going on a few dates to punish her for being on the fence about your marriage was a terrible way to handle things. It seems that you two needed a break from each other and the stressors you are causing to each other. But, if you're not working through why you are causing each other such negative feelings and stress, then there's no way you're going to heal the marriage. 

I agree with you that dating during this period is a bad idea for both of you. It's not fair to your spouse and it's not fair to the person you date. My story is a bit different from yours, but I can tell you now, if my husband had said he wasn't happy, we needed to divorce and nothing I said would change his mind, then we could have stood a chance at being friends after all this is over. But his cheating and continuing with that relationship have destroyed any hope of us having a good post-divorce relationship. We'll have a civil one (for the child), but nothing more. 

Bringing a third person into the marriage, even if you think the marriage is over, is one of the worst things you can do at this point. Don't trial run another relationship to see if it makes you want to keep your marriage. That's a terrible idea.


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## hedrach (Jun 23, 2015)

av8tordude said:


> Before the question is asked, I’m 100% confident she has never cheated.


You can never be 100% sure about anything.

Most betrayed partners state that they never believed their partner was cheating on them. 

Food for thought.


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

hedrach said:


> You can never be 100% sure about anything.
> 
> Most betrayed partners state that they never believed their partner was cheating on them.
> 
> Food for thought.


This point I'm am 100% confident!!!


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I am curious, OP. What is in it for your wife to go back to you? You punish her (dating another women because your ego couldn't take her anger) and you lecture her (she doesn't have appropriate motivation to fix your marriage, according to you). 

I agree that the 180 as it is normally recognized here is a bad strategy for you if your goal is to stay married. It sounds like the more space you give her, the more space she wants. This usually means that her life is a lot more pleasant when you're not in it. She is in no way afraid or worried to be apart from you, per her actions. She has been thinking about leaving for a long time now.

If you want to stay married, I think you need to decide that you are going to try to win your wife over for a period of time. I strongly recommend checking out the book Love Busters, by Willard Harley. It's likely that your wife could also stand to read it, but you're the one here.


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> I am curious, OP. What is in it for your wife to go back to you? You punish her (dating another women because your ego couldn't take her anger) and you lecture her (she doesn't have appropriate motivation to fix your marriage, according to you).


Honestly, I don’t know at this point. It’s only been 3 weeks, but if I had to guess, nothing at this point since we need time to heal. I can only work to resolve my issue that I created in our marriage. Only time will dictate the outcome. As far as my inappropriate behavior, it was a poor judgment on my part that I'm a shamed to speak about. But I have grown to understand why it happen, the impact and pain it has cause onto my wife and the ramification it has brought to our marriage. I broke her trust.



> It sounds like the more space you give her, the more space she wants. This usually means that her life is a lot more pleasant when you're not in it. She is in no way afraid or worried to be apart from you, per her actions. She has been thinking about leaving for a long time now.


Maybe there is some truth to this statement. But I would contend to say, that our separation is allowing us some time to reflect on the problems of our marriage, rather than being neck deep in the crap. Ironically, we still communicate and occasionally meet to have tea or lunch. Although we don’t talk about reconciliation, I’m just happy that we can enjoy each other's company without fighting. Just today she ask me if I would be interested in joining her and our son to go to Paris Euro-Disney. What do you make of that?

She does tell me she feels I’m pressuring her if I talk about our situation, so I don’t and allow her the time and space she asked until she’s ready. I have address my concerns about complicating our separation (i.e. dating) and she has told she has no interest right now, whether it’s with me or not. “It would be cheating in her mind”. She knows I don’t want to date either. I painfully learned my lesson in this area.




> If you want to stay married, I think you need to decide that you are going to try to win your wife over for a period of time. I strongly recommend checking out the book Love Busters, by Willard Harley. It's likely that your wife could also stand to read it, but you're the one here.


Already discovered his book and his website.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Another great book is "His Needs, Her Needs" by the same author. If you read it, you'll learn about the "Love Bank" and how to create romantic love by meeting each other's emotional needs. The items you describe in blue are two of the needs that are required in order to fall/stay in love, and the item in green is what is needed to generate the 1st two. You have the right idea, for sure! However, since they are missing, it is not at all surprising that you and your wife are not in love. 



av8tordude said:


> My wife took our son to spend the summer at my in-laws (which is normal) and we decided to try to reconcile. The summer alone help tremendously as it allowed us to focus on our marriage without the distraction of parenting. 1 year later, I’m feeling the same behavioral patterns all over again (no affection, very little intimacy, and no husband/wife time). After another heated argument, she took our son to my in-laws for the summer (normal), came home and she moved out.


You're in a very tough situation, since your wife has moved out. If you had moved out, you could move back in. It will be very hard to win your wife over if you don't live together. As it is, she now enjoys peace and quiet and getting to live her own life. No one is there to judge her, fight with her, punish her, lecture her. These are all love busters, and it's easy to see you doing them in your posts. They are terrible habits and we all have them to some extent. It takes learning about them and making changes to remove them, but it can be done. 




> it’s been 3 weeks now and my wife seems to be more content being separated and not wanting to work on the road to reconciliation in resolving our problems. We met up for dinner for father’s day. Started out well, but ended after I addressed concerns about what I felt was her lack of motivation to work on fixing our marriage. The conversation ended when I press her on her thoughts about divorce. She responded “Divorce is just a piece of paper!” I responded, “If that’s how you feel, why not move forward to making it legal?” She didn’t have a response and I haven’t seen her since.


Why would you ruin a potentially lovely time with your family by pushing her about a divorce? You could have ended the evening with her missing you, thinking about how nice it was to be a little family. You just needed to avoid pushing her about the divorce. 

But you didn't. Instead, you talked down her at her, you said she lacked motivation, and you basically invited her to file for divorce. Now, instead of thinking about her lovely little family and how nice it would be to stay as one, she was dissed, dismissed, and pushed to divorce. Are you really surprised that you haven't seen her since?

What is your goal here? 



> I feel she is very resentful and hurtful towards me about what she perceives are problems I created. In some part, I do shoulder the blame, but what I have is very little patience in not having a clear direction.


Yes, I think you are right. I would be resentful and hurt if my husband did/said the things you've said. Are you willing to address the problems that you created? Do you think that you have any responsibility for the state of your marriage right now? 



> I make life/death decision on my job every time I go to work and it comes natural, but for some reason, making a decisive action about my marriage is befuddling. On one hand, when I think about pulling the trigger to get divorce, it brings a sense of resolve, but the pain doesn’t go away. On the other hand, my will prevents me from taking that route because I have such an overwhelming hope our marriage can be save.


Your wife has sent you a very loud message but I am not sure that you have picked it up yet: YOU are going to have to make some changes if you want to stay married. YOU are going to have to do some heavy lifting. YOU. 

Your wife has left you TWICE. You managed to win her back once. You are right that you (and every other human being) need to have husband/wife time, affection, and intimacy to have a happy marriage. But your wife isn't going to want to be with you if you aren't enjoyable to be around, she won't be intimate with you if she can't trust you, she isn't going to be affectionate if she doesn't like you very much. 

She isn't going to like you very much if you are judging, punishing, pushing. That is how you are coming off in your posts. You have a very strong ego. That's not bad in/of itself, but I think you will need to dramatically improve your communication methods if you want to do your part in having a good, strong, happy marriage.



> Before the question is asked, I’m 100% confident she has never cheated. I am 98% confident she is not currently involved with anyone, but her occasional distant behavior and our separation are slowly eroding that trust. We don’t have any agreement in place about dating other people. I don’t want to date other people as it clouds an already complicated situation and she says she’s not interested of dating other people because her primary goal, “concentrate on picking up the pieces of her shatter life”. She does get irritated when I bring up the subject, but I think it’s because I bring up the subject without getting a resolute answer and I think it’s a defensive mechanism that makes her think I’m telling her how to conduct her life. IDK.


There isn't much you can do about it, since you don't live together now and you already set the model for your marriage that it is appropriate to date others. But I would be wary. She hasn't agreed not to date. She isn't making any moves towards getting back together with you. 



> I’m at the point of being tired of being in limbo. I want to save my marriage, but if divorce is in my future (although I hate the idea), at least I can move forward. I read the “180-list”, but I find myself breaking rule #2 (I call once a day) because I feel the lack of communication will cause more harm than good. After our last meeting, I decided to adhere to rule #9. I can easily comply with rule #5, if I have a clear sense of direction (reconciliation or divorce). I’m getting closer to breaking #10, but I don’t think it’s necessary just yet. Frankly, I feel this list prepares one for a less painful divorce.


If you are going to wait for your wife to make all the decisions, she is very likely going to decide to divorce, or maybe just live alone in the status quo. 

I have no doubt that your wife hasn't handled things perfectly; she will have her own substantial flaws and areas that are in dire need of improvement. She is human, like you, me, and every other poster. I am posting that you need to make changes because you are the one who is here, you have an overwhelming hope that your marriage can be saved. 

Because you have this hope, I really strongly recommend that you make your own decision that you are going to attempt to improve yourself and win your wife back to you. HNHN and Love Busters are great starts. You can do a lot of reading here, too. There is good thread, it was also in Divorce, titled something like "I am moving back in, I don't think she'll like it." You can read Anon's thread in SIM about "She wanted to be held while she read a book" (or something like that!), and also do a search for Farside. All of these men pulled their marriages back from the brink. BTW all of these men had "difficult" wives who are much less difficult now.

Post a lot, people here can help you. It was brave to post, many people only lurk. People can come down hard, but overall people here want to help and have great ideas/feedback to offer.

The only things that has to happen is, you have to decide. Even if you end being divorced, your self improvement will help you in future relationships. 

BTW, it is a game changer if she is, or was, cheating. Like I said, I don't know how you could follow-up or what you could do now that you are apart, but if you've never snooped, I recommend that you take a look through her phone bill/texts for the last few months before she left. Just in case. Because the recommendations will change drastically.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Ah, this was very nice post to see. I have a tendency to write long posts, so we cross-posted.



av8tordude said:


> Honestly, I don’t know at this point. It’s only been 3 weeks, but if I had to guess, nothing at this point since we need time to heal. I can only work to resolve my issue that I created in our marriage. Only time will dictate the outcome. As far as my inappropriate behavior, it was a poor judgment on my part that I'm a shamed to speak about. But I have grown to understand why it happen, the impact and pain it has cause onto my wife and the ramification it has brought to our marriage. I broke her trust.


I highlighted the sentence in Green for luck! This is great and I think you're right, it is the main thing that any of us can do. The past is done and we can't change it. We can only learn from it, yeah? And work to resolve our issues.



> Maybe there is some truth to this statement. But I would contend to say, that our separation is allowing us some time to reflect on the problems of our marriage, rather than being neck deep in the crap. Ironically, we still communicate and occasionally meet to have tea or lunch.  Although we don’t talk about reconciliation, I’m just happy that we can enjoy each other's company without fighting. Just today she ask me if I would be interested in joining her and our son to go to Paris Euro-Disney. What do you make of that?


This is really nice! Keep your time together positive and pleasant. Avoid fighting at all costs right now. Paris Euro-Disney sounds wonderful! You can ramp up the time together and "family commitment" is usually a top-five emotional need for women. A lot of my own angst over my husband magically evaporates on a fun family night, when I get to enjoy him and my son all together. Disney Orlando is among my favorite places on earth to be with my husband and son.



> She does tell me she feels I’m pressuring her if I talk about our situation, so I don’t and allow her the time and space she asked until she’s ready. I have address my concerns about complicating our separation (i.e. dating) and she has told she has no interest right now, whether it’s with me or not. “It would be cheating in her mind”. She knows I don’t want to date either. I painfully learned my lesson in this area.


This is much more promising than I picked up in your first post. There is an agreement then that there is no dating. She won't, you won't.



> Already discovered his book and his website.


This is more good news! I would avoid his forums as they are a little rabid over there, but there is a TON of free info on his site. He is also accessible by email, if you look at his radio tab. You might email him about your situation, he is likely to call you and talk about it (and you get a free book.) 

From this post, it sounds more like your wife isn't in complete withdrawal. That is a much better starting place.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

From my understanding, separation is a time to get used to being divorced, not a time to work on a marriage. 

She is out of your house, out of your presence, probably feels free and has no real reason to miss you it seems. 

I do not know what you are going to do to fix it, but I suggest working on yourself and making the time you spend together as a family as positive as possible. I probably would not contact her EVERY day either. 

Women are emotional and currently she associates being with you/living with you with negative emotions. Try to leave everything with her on a positive not. Honestly, why ask her about the divorce? Why try to goad her into arguments? Do you think you can "reason" her into falling in love with you? 

No, falling in love is not logical, attraction is not a choice. Make her FEEL good about you and you might have a chance, but that also needs space to grow, so don't bother her every day.


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

I'm getting ready to meet my wife at her place to have dinner and discuss details about our upcoming Disney trip. A few things has me thinking, but I'm trying to be optimistic about them....


I had time to process the fact my wife invited to go with her and our son to Euro-Disney and I'm curious what's the catch. My thinking she could have went without me. Don't get me wrong, I happy to been invited, but am I Over-analyzing?
As for the expenses, she insist we get stay in separate rooms and that she pays half for the trip or she won't go. Is this a defensive mechanism to prevent herself from emotion reconnecting with me, something else, analyzing too much?

I do plan to snoop around her phone to check for anything suspicious, but feel apprehensive about doing and getting caught because I'm really trying to regain her trust and she emphatically insist she has no desire to getting involve with anyone. 

Any thoughts would be appreciative.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Morcoll said:


> From my understanding, separation is a time to get used to being divorced, not a time to work on a marriage.


I rarely see any examples of separation leading to reconciliation.

If you expressed your concerns about bringing in another child into the marriage why would she want to leave? OP it seems like there is more to the situation. What other problems are you referring to? You went out on a date after you found out she was looking at apartments. Why would that be your reaction? She might think you are cheating on her. You also feel like snooping. Based on your reaction and your need to snoop it seems like you suspect an OM.

She's basically doing the 180 to you and it seems like she's done with your marriage.


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

tryingpatience said:


> I rarely see any examples of separation leading to reconciliation.
> 
> If you expressed your concerns about bringing in another child into the marriage why would she want to leave? OP it seems like there is more to the situation. What other problems are you referring to? You went out on a date after you found out she was looking at apartments. Why would that be your reaction? She might think you are cheating on her. You also feel like snooping. Based on your reaction and your need to snoop it seems like you suspect an OM.
> 
> She's basically doing the 180 to you and it seems like she's done with your marriage.


Trying to explain everything here would be like writing a novel, but I will contend, we started having serious problems since our son was born 5 years ago.

Having said that, I don't suspect OM, but something I read here rings true.... Trust, but VERIFY! As for the 180 list, I did find parallels with her behavior and this list. Only thing, what is confusing is why invite me on a trip when she could have gone without me? Will be doing things like a "Family"?!?


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

av8tordude said:


> Of course my ego was not going to allow her to disrespect me in this manner, so I went out on few dates with a co-worker.


This was a big no-no. I wish you had not done this...it will be very hard for your wife to get past. But, it happened and you must find a way to un-do the hurt she feels.



> On the other hand, my will prevents me from taking that route because I have such an overwhelming hope our marriage can be save.


This is what matters - your overhwelming hope. Trust this! Take steps accordingly! Divorce is very painful and if you don't want to end the marriage (clearly, she does not want to end it either otherwise you'd have been served divorce papers already) then take steps to heal. Go to marital counselling together, and spend time together with your son.

A woman's needs are to feel loved and secure. A man's needs are to have physical connection and feel respected. You touched on all these points in your post. She does not feel loved, nor does she feel secure because you dated another woman. You do not feel respected and she was not nurturing intimacy with you. These are things you can both change, BUT ONLY IF YOU PUT IN A LOT OF EFFORT and WANT to change.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Morcoll said:


> From my understanding, separation is a time to get used to being divorced, not a time to work on a marriage.


No, separation means different things depending on the couple.

For me, separation was a "I've had enough - either you change and we have a future, or you don't and we're through." It was to remove myself from a toxic environment and lower my stress levels so I could become healthier and more peaceful. And to give my husband an opportunity to wake up and realize that his lifestyle was harming us. 

It was a time to work on our marriage and try to settle our differences in a way that worked for both of us. Meanwhile sending a clear signal that divorce will happen if differences are not settled.

That being said - a marriage will not succeed if spouses are not together. So the goal of separation should be reconciliation and change...otherwise it will end in divorce.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

She has invited you to Disney, so that you can both spend time together with your son and see if things could possibly work out.
She is opening a door to reconciliation.
Take it.


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

Well last night was good. My Wife cooked me dinner (which I told her was very nice & appreciative of her). I attempted to take the reigns to clean the kitchen like I used to do before we separated, but she was not having any of it! When I insisted, it felt like a battle of wills (Me wanting to help and her refusing my help to prove her independence). After dinner, we sat down looking at different hotels that would meet her criteria. The original plan for hotel was to get 2 rooms (adjoin together). After perusing the hotels together, we settle to get 1-room with 2 beds. So, the trip is set. The non-refunded airline tickets and hotel reservation are confirm. After we finish our mapping out what we wanted to do to ensure our Son was going to have a good, she ask me if I could help her with a few repairs around the house, which I told her I would take of while she could finish her paper work for the next day at work. Finished up everything and left. Overall it was good night. 

I never experience separation before and don't know how it suppose to work. I find it now that we are apart, it has allow me to reflect on the problems I created in our marriage. Although I don't want to focus on the my wife's contribution to the cause of our separation, how can I not, at least, acknowledge some role that she has played? You can't have conflict in a marriage without two people being involved.

One thing I notice in me, I'm slowly overcoming this emotional rollercoaster ride, although I do have bouts of fears and worries. I do pray to God a lot for his guidance asking him for strength. One of the things I ponder over and over, while I don't know what future she has for us, there will come a time I going to want an absolute direction in my life. I want to be married to my wife and I don't want a broken family for my son. I read people stories of separation from 3 weeks to 3+ years (insane). For me 6-12 months is all I'm willing to endure this separation. I think its long enough for both of us to heal, reflect and either work to getting back together as a loving couple again or being just another divorce statistic. For now, we talk once a day, sometimes more. I'm trying not push for more together time, because I don't want her to feel unnecessarily pressured from my side, but at the same time, I don't want us to lose what connection we have left either (if any, IDK).

Your thoughts....


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Av8tor, your evening sounds very positive to me. Very positive. It seems very clear that she is reaching out to you and that she is open to reconciliation, if things improve. She is making a stance on her independence IMO to show you that she doesn't *need* you, but she is open to seeing if you can work it all out. There are no promises but she hasn't entirely shut down. It's good to hear the two of you communicating and mapping out a Disney vacation. 

I have found the most success in improving myself/my marriage using the MB stuff, so my advice is often MB-based. You are not describing any game-changing, serious "big issues" in your posts like infidelity, drug/alcohol abuse, personality disorders or other mental illness, emotional or physical abuse. 

Usually when a woman leaves the marriage, and none of those "big issues" are happening, it is because she feels neglected. She feels that her needs don't count. Her husband has drained her love for him. I very strongly suspect that this is why your wife has left you. There is an article on MB called "Why Women Leave", I recommend that you read it. 

I could be totally wrong, but it really sounds to me that your wife loves you but you probably Love Bust her too much, so much that is it more pleasant to be without you than with you. She is willing and able to be on her own. She is reaching out to you to see if the marriage can be saved, but she is not desperate and she knows she will be OK either way.

Do you think this guess of mine might be right? 

If so, there is good news, which is that the odds are on your side for reconciliation. But you need a plan and you need to learn more about how successful marriages work. You are already looking, you found this site, so you are on your way.

Have you read Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs yet? I believe they are both available for download on Amazon. 

1. *Decide within yourself, commit to yourself, that you are going to win back your wife. Make that your goal*. To me, this is the key that his missing from your posts. It is as if you are just drifting, waiting to see what will happen. Once you have committed within yourself, your dialog should change. it will be "I want to have a strong, happy, healthy marriage with you, one in which we are both getting our needs met and we are both happy and in-love together. I have a plan to get there." There will be no more tentativeness, there will be direction. 

2. Read Love Busters. Figure out what actions you've taken (or not taken) which have basically driven your wife away from you (again, assuming that none of the Big Issues are going on). 

There will come a time when you can talk with her about HER love busters, but this is not the time. Your wife has almost certainly left you because you have drained her "love bank" for you. You can do 100 nice things for her in a day, but if you turn around and have a temper tantrum/angry outburst, or if you selfishly demand that she do something you, or if you make disrespectful judgment towards her, then all 100 are completely wiped and you are actually at -5 in the balance book.

Another poster, Turnera, recently put it like this: lets say that on occasion, your wife punches you in the nose. She doesn't always do it, only on occasion. How many "occasions" will it take before you are always on edge and don't trust her when she comes near you, even if she sometimes comes near you to something "nice"? This is how Love Busters work. She is letting you come near with this vacation but is still keeping some distance. Don't "punch her in the nose" by committing any Love Busters. Demonstrate that you are safe and will care for her. 

Love Busters really opened my eyes. I had no idea I was committing some of them. This seems to be an almost universal finding by people who read the book. It is very important. 

3. Read His Needs, Her Needs. When you go on this trip- and any chance you get, really- be sure to hit up her ENs. Family commitment is HUGE for most women, the fact that she invited you tells me that it is very important to her. 

You have a great opportunity coming up with this vacation. It is REALLY important that you go into it with a primary goal on your end. That goal is be the absolute best husband you can be. Commit NO love busters. Have a great time and take advantage of every opportunity you see to meet an emotional need. Be affectionate. Be fun. Talk with her about FUN things and light-hearted things. 

This is your chance to show her in actions that you are capable of being the husband that she needs. 

*Avoid relationship talk! * Do NOT talk about the separation. Do NOT talk about divorce! Do not ask her anything about it! 

Later on, once she is back in the marriage, you can work together to make it strong, healthy, where you get the time and intimacy you need. You are very far away from that point right now, you wife doesn't even want to live with you. That is the problem that needs to be fixed first. When your mind drifts to the things that she has done wrong, re-focus on what you can do to improve.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Here's a great thread going on that started off in this forum, but has since moved to Reconciliation. This poster specifically avoided trying to win her back, but instead focused on self-improvement. I think as long as you decide that YOU are going to self improve and not depend on your wife, you can be successful. The change starts around page 10. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/221290-day-one.html


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

Thanks RoseAglow for the link and our positive comments....

So yesterday, I called my wife to asked if I could come over so we could watch a movie together (which she agreed). About 30 minutes after I arrived, she asked if I would mind if we could go out so she can complete some errands. In my mind, I was hoping to have a nice evening together, but in the spirit of not putting any pressure on her, I agreed.

So in the car, we are having good conversations and in the midst of our conversation, she casually tells me "Don't get the wrong impression about our time together. I enjoy being with you, but I see our relationship as friends. In fact, you are my oldest friend I have. Yes we used to be "F*CK Buddies, but I think I can get use to us being friends".

In my mind I'm saying, "WHAT THE F*CK DID YOU SAY!!!!!!!", but I said nothing at the moment because I didn't want to explode on her and ruin the evening. Of course I completely loss all interest in our conversations and desire to want to be around her. But certainly I was going to express my resentment over her callous comment before the evening was over.

So we get the mall, and she can tell something was wrong. Each time she ask what was bothering me, I told her nothing was wrong, but deep down inside me was a very angry person! So she ask me if I would like to share a desert with her. While she was eating her desert, I couldn't help but think how disgusted I was feeling about her insensitive and disrespectful comment. So she ask again what was bothering and added "if you are going act do depressing, I'm not going to go out with you again". 

As much as I wanted to explode on her, I calmly asked "So these past 13+ years, you only seen me as just a "F*CK BUDDY?!?" Of course, she made matters even worse by casually laughing saying it was only a joke and that she thought I would not be offended by it. Finally, I had to make her realize, it was not in the least bit, funny!!! I explain her that I made it perfectly clear about my feelings for her. I also explain to her that I respected her feelings that she needed some time. Of course, she got defensive telling me that we are separated and that you my "Estrange Husband", yada yada yada.

At this point, I have heard enough!!!! I told her "I will not continue to allow her to label me as an Estranged Husband, Separated Husband (although true), or "F*CK BUDDY! In fact, the only title I will accept is either "Husband or Ex-Husband!" After I say that, all emotions let loose. 

After the dust had settled, I realized (and she told me) how scared she was about loving me again and giving me another chance. For her, giving me another chance meant going to back to our old life and she did not want that. Of course, I said I didn't want our old life back either. That I wanted a new life. A new life with her that was far different from what we had in the past. Throughout our conversation, I could see the pain in her eyes as she strongly held back her tears.

After having a heart to heart conversation, I drove her back to her home. After I got home, I called her to see how see was doing. She said everything is ok and that she will see me tomorrow. The next day, I thought it would be a nice to give her something to let her know how special she is to me. So I stop by the flower shop to get her a rose. When we met, I presented the rose and she was thankful of the thought. I didn't detect any anxiety from her so I think she accepted it as a nice gesture.

Thoughts....


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

You need to seriously talk to Dayone....look at his thread....you realize your killing and chance of a continued life with her....stop it....work strictly on yourself. Don't act like a freaking puppy dog.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Stop walking on pins and needles around her. Stop chasing her. Stop buying flowers. Stop blaming yourself for her departure and separation. You are operating entirely in her relationship frame. This will be the nail in your marriage's coffin. 

Work on figuring out what you want. It's okay that you want to reconcile with your wife. I don't agree with Rose - stop trying to win her back. She walked, and her actions speak loudly. She has her reasons. You don't have to agree with them or make it right. Your number one priority right now is working to be the man you want to be. Take the time to invest in yourself and take care of yourself. If you are out of shape, work on that. If you want to try to learn a new language, do that. If you want to travel somewhere on your own, do it. You need to fulfill your own needs (all of them) for the time being. If you are ok being her buddy, then admit that and continue to operate as you have been. If you divorce, maybe she can be your old friend later on down the road. She may even befriend your new wife. Point is, you don't control anyone but you. Be ready for whatever tomorrow brings. 

You can still be kind. You can even be loving, but you need to detach from her emotionally and detach from her frame. There are certainly degrees of detachment, but you need space to operate on your own program for a bit until you figure out where you are going. 

Once you have some distance and have invested in yourself for a bit (I recommend at least 90 days), then if you feel it, re-engage. You may be a "different" person in 90 days - maybe back to your old self - maybe more interesting. 

My 2 cents.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

AV8, i'm sorry to say but you blew it when your marriage was having problems and you started dating another woman in response. How on earth can she trust a man who instead of 
stepping up to the plate to sort out the problems decides to take another woman on dates, doesn't sound as if you are very mature.

If she was my friend i would be telling her to run for the hills. She is allowing you to be in her life because of your very young child, she doesn't see you as her husband anymore, you lost that privilege when you started stepping out with someone else. You skimmed over that little detail rather quickly but it sent her the message that she wasn't and probably will not be the most important person in your life, the most important person in your life is obviously yourself. How would you feel if she started doing that now that you are having problems, would you want to reconcile with her? I don't think so.

So now you are looking for her commitment to you, where was your commitment it resolve things. Remember women and men are very different, to you this was just simply displacement activity to her it was the nail in the coffin, guaranteed. AND she will not forget that you were not there and ready to step up when things went awry. You do not have a future with her, sorry.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

IN case you are wondering where my reasoning is coming from in the earlier post, sorry for the caps, couldn't find the different colours to differentiate. I am not shouting 

"She accused me of wanting out of the marriage and wanting to have a child with someone else. (non-sense) NONSENSE, REALLY? THEN WHAT WAS GOING OUT ON DATES WITH YOUR CO-WORKER ALL ABOUT, YOUR WIFE WASN'T TALKING NONSENSE AT ALL- GO FIGURE! YOU PROVED HER RIGHT ALL ALONG - HOW'S THAT FOR CREATING SECURITY IN YOUR MARRIAGE?.

Long story short (WHY ARE YOU SKIPPING THE LONG STORY) , after moving into the guest room for 6 weeks and wouldn't speak to me or reconcile our differences, I caught her searching for an apartment to rent. When I confronted her about it, we got into a very heated argument and the last thing she said was "I'm done with you!"(OF COURSE SHE IS, YOU ONE MINUTE WANT ANOTHER CHILD, THE NEXT MINUTE DON'T WANT, PROBABLY BLAME HER FOR THE 'DISCONNECTION' WITHOUT STATING YOUR ROLE IN ANY OF THIS, THEN TALK ABOUT HER CONTROL AND LACK OF ENGAGEMENT WITH YOUR FAMILY, I AM SURE THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF RUG SWEEPING GOING ON THERE, HOW SUPPORTIVE HAVE YOU BEEN WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR WIFE AND YOUR FAMILY - PROBABLY A WHOLE STORY THERE - WHICH YOU HAVE SIMPLY MINIMIZED. 

Of course my ego was not going to allow her to disrespect me in this manner, so I went out on few dates with a co-worker. SO TO TEACH YOUR (POOR SUFFERING WIFE) A LESSON YOU DECIDED TO GO AND DO EXACTLY WHAT SHE THOUGHT YOU WOULD DO. YOU ARE EITHER TOTALLY MACHIAVELLIAN OR AN IDIOT TO DO SOMETHING TO YOUR WIFE WHEN SHE IS ALREADY FEELING SO INSECURE ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE, YOUR WANTING KIDS, YOUR FAMILY, ETC). a WOMAN WANTS TO KNOW SHE IS LOVED AND SHE NEEDS SECURITY IN HER MARRIAGE, YOU SIMPLY STOMPED ALL OVER THAT. MOST WIVES WOULD SIMPLY HAVE KICKED YOU OUT OF THE HOUSE FOR A LOT LESS. FURTHER SHE ONLY HAS YOUR WORD FOR IT THAT IT WAS NOT PHYSICAL OR EMOTIONAL, YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN YOURSELF TO HAVE INTEGRITY, SO WHY SHOULD SHE BELIEVE YOU?

While being with her help distract me form the problems at home, I realized I didn't see a long term future with her" SO YOU DIDN'T SEE A LONG TERM FUTURE WITH THIS OTHER WOMAN, AND NOW YOU WONDER WHY YOUR WIFE HAS FRIEND ZONED YOU AND IS NOW CALLING YOU A 'F*** BUDDY.' WELL I HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU, BUT YOU DID THAT YOURSELF THE WAY YOU HAVE ACTED IN ALL OF THIS. YOU HAVE REDUCED WHAT YOU HAD TO JUST A LIVING ARRANGEMENT WITH SEX, YOU HAVE NOT ACTED LIKE A HUSBAND OR A MAN OF INTEGRITY. YOU HAVE PROBABLY DEEPLY HURT YOUR WIFE, WHO HAS NOT BEEN SUPPORTED BY YOU, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN A TEAM PLAYER IN THE MARRIAGE. YOUR ATTITUDE IS ONE OF, MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. 

I DO NOT BLAME YOUR WIFE FOR NOT TRUSTING YOU. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE STORY IS WITH YOUR FAMILY BUT I WOULD BET MY BOTTOM DOLLAR THAT YOU HAVE ALSO THROWN HER TO THE WOLVES THERE AND NOT STOOD UP FOR HER. SHE IS BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU, YOU DID MOST OF THE DAMAGE AND IT IS UP TO YOUR WIFE WHETHER YOU GET THE PRIVILEGE TO RECTIFY. IMO, YOU SHOULD NOT UNTIL YOU GROW UP AND BECOME A BETTER MAN.

MEANWHILE OTHERS ON THE FORM ALSO SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THIS SALIENT POINT OF YOUR DATING A CO WORKER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MESS JUST TO TEACH YOUR WIFE A LESSON AND BECAUSE OF YOUR EGO, REALLY?


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

Clearly you have some "Unresolved Issues"! WOW!!!!! I will not dignify myself to offer you a rebuttal to what is clearly a hate-filled speech! Besides you are certainly in NO position to offer unbias and emotionally balanced advice considering you are considering separation/divorce yourself!!!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...-leave-my-husband-i-see-no-other-way-out.html


Fix "YOUR" marriage before you can offer sound, emotionally balanced opinions.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

av8tordude said:


> Clearly you have some "Unresolved Issues"! WOW!!!!! I will not dignify myself to offer you a rebuttal to what is clearly a hate-filled speech! Besides you are certainly in NO position to offer unbias and emotionally balanced advice considering you are considering separation/divorce yourself!!!
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...-leave-my-husband-i-see-no-other-way-out.html
> 
> ...


Sorry, but that's a cop-out. Dating your co-worker was amazingly stupid, and you know it.

At least I hope you do.


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

Absolutely and 100% agree with you Gus. It was a selfish, arrogant, insensitive, demoralizing, demeaning behavior that my wife should have never experience, PERIOD! I 100% take full ownership for making such a thoughtless decision. I hold my wife blameless in my decision and action! I know I have to be a better communicator so my Wife can understand my emotional needs in our marriage. Which I am currently addressing with my counselor.


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## av8tordude (Jun 23, 2015)

Update….(Sorry for the long update)

Each session of IC is helping me a lot with coping with my separation. I’ve been focusing more on myself, rather than focusing on my marriage. I have less rollercoaster emotional moments, sleeping better, and I gain back my appetite. I’m starting realize I’ll be OK wherever this journey takes me. I still have hopes of reconciling with my wife, but now I don’t allow the outcome to determine my self-worth if I’m not successful. My sessions has help me to understand the mistakes I’ve made (the arguments, my selfish behaviors, EA, etc.), that I can hold myself accountable without deflecting the blame elsewhere and emotionally heal to being a better person.

As you are aware, my wife invited me to Disneyland-Paris with our son. Only caveat, we split the cost 50-50 and we get separate rooms. Although not my idea of having a good time with my family, I grudgingly accepted her terms since it would allow us to spend quality family time together. After making final preparations, surprisingly my wife agreed to get 1-room w/ 3-beds. Leading up to our trip, my wife kept reminding me that this trip was for our son and not about us or the start of our road to reconciliation. Obviously, I was apprehensive pretending to be a happy family because of the confusing message it sends about my role on this trip. In fact it was a source of contention given my desires to reconcile. We did have a few tense discussions about my concerns, but we did make it to Paris. 

Day 1: After arriving at the hotel, the room had 2-full size beds placed side-by-side (w/ separate sheets/comforter) and 1-sofa bed. I concluded I would be sleeping on the sofa bed, but surprisingly my wife had our son sleep on the sofa bed and we would be sleeping side-by-side in the full size beds. After getting settled, we ordered room service, but not without getting into a tense argument. Apparently, miscommunication was the culprit. We managed to diffuse the situation by coming to an understanding that we will need to communicate better if we are going to enjoy this trip. After having dinner, we enjoyed the rest of the evening at the pool before going to bed.

Day 2: Got up to have breakfast at the hotel restaurant. My wife appeared very relax AND sat next to me at the table (Shocked!). After having breakfast, we headed to Disneyland. We had a great time riding the rides, talking, and laughing. My Wife must have been in a emotional good place because she began cuddling up to me, holding my arm, and addressing me by her love name she likes to call me (don’t ask…hahaha). We even took pictures together as a family and took husband/wife selfie pictures together. It felt great getting her affection once again. Towards the end of the day, we stop by a children playground to let our son run off whatever remaining energy he had left, at the same time, giving our feet some rest. While sitting in a corner of the playground, I decided to give her feet massage and a back rub. I can see it was well received. After a long day at the park, we retired for the evening in our separate beds…lol.

Day 3: Another great day at the park, but less tiring. We enjoyed each other company, but most importantly being together as a family. Overall very happy ending to amazing day.

Day 4: We decided to spend a day in Paris. We decided to take the public Subway trains to Effel Tower and purchase tickets on the Hop-On-Hop-Off tour bus. The tour was great and we had a great time. Taking lots of pictures and selfies too. When we returned to the hotel, I took our Son to the pool, but my Wife was too tired to join us. After returning to the room, I noticed some changes in her mood and behavior. Well apparently, she told me she read the text messages between my Mother and I. Understanding my family knows my current marital situation, my Mother is a caring mother who gives me unrepentant opinions and advice whether their good or bad, but my Wife did not take to kindly my mother’s advice. Needless to say, what turn out to be another wonderful day, ended up in an argument about my mother’s opinions and advice. Ironically, the advice my mother was offering, giving my emotional state at the time of the conversation, is that I should not go on this trip giving how it will confuse matters worse and that she thought my wife had some ill-intention agenda. Despite my efforts to explain to the contrary, it was clear that whatever gains I manage to obtain with my wife affections, it was clear I was back to square one; dealing with a harden-hearted wife. While lying in bed on our last night in Paris, I began thinking about my IC session and realized my happiness is being constrained by me being in separation limbo. On one hand, it appears my Wife wants our marriage to work, but it also seems she refuses to allow herself to move forward to reconciling. IDK.

Day 5 (Last day). The morning arrives and my Wife and I get up to prepare for check-out (son still sleeping). I told my wife we needed to talk. I explained to her…

Me: “I have always tried to live my life in black or white. I don’t like living in the gray. Being separated with no clear direction in our marriage is living in the gray. Being “friends” or being in a “friend zone”, while being married, is living in the gray. I cannot be your friend or be treated like a "friend" while being married to you. I can only be your "Husband" or "Ex-Husband"! I want to be in a marriage where I can openly love my wife and be reciprocated that same love from her. I cannot dictate to you how you should feel nor am I trying to tell you what you should do. Clearly, you are emotionally conflicted. Unfortunately, I’m unhappy about being in limbo. I can see myself happy being married to you, other the other hand, I can see myself being happy moving forward without you. I don’t have anybody else waiting nor am I looking to be in a relationship.

W: “When you were having your affair, clearly you were living in the gray.”

Me: “You are absolutely correct! During my IC, I learn a lot about my behavior. I was an arrogant, selfish, self-center individual who only cared about myself and my needs. Not once did I ever consider your needs. During the time I was with her, deep down inside me I knew you would deeply be hurt by me selfish, inconsiderate action and that there would be repercussion to face. The only message that my guiltless actions can be perceived was our 13-year marriage was meaningless. Your trust meant nothing. In fact, I took your trust shamefully for granted! I am deeply for sorry from my behavior and my thoughtless action.

What I should have done was come to you about my concerns about our marriage, work with you to resolve our issues, and if I was not satisfied with the outcome, end our marriage respectfully. In do so, I would be honoring our 13-year marriage, respecting you as the mother of our son, protecting our family's honor while keeping my dignity, integrity, and self-respect. Because of my failure, I am truly sorry!”

W: You were an A**hole! How can I trust you? 

Me: Only time and my actions will give you that answer. But until then, unfortunately, I can’t fix the problems in our marriage by myself. I need you to start take one step forward with me if we are to save our marriage. We cannot change what has happen in the past, but learn from our success and failures so we can happy future. While I’m in no position to dictate a timeline for you to make a decision, I cannot continue being in limbo. I’m not trying to live in the past but move forward into the future. I’ve decided if I’m ever going to move my life forward, I've decided to cut all contact with you to give you the space you need to have a clear thought process on what would be best for your life without my presence interfering in your thought process. When you return in September, a decision must be made on whether we move forward together as a loving husband and wife, or we divorce amicably and co-parent our son. Any answer other than “yes” to reconciliation, I will file for divorce. Life in marital limbo is not a life I want for myself.

So that’s where we are today. Overall the Paris trip was great. We seem to emotionally connect with each other during the trip and our son had a great time. Regardless of the upcoming decision that will be made, in the end we’ll be much happier than we have been in the past.

I welcome your thoughts and criticisms, though what was said can't be retracted now.


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