# Was anyone saved by a prenup?



## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

After reading the many stories here at TAM, I have to admit to being a little down on marriage. I know that there are good marriages etc, but I never treated marriage as the decision that will make or break me.

I now realize that it would be foolish to marry without a prenup. It's not that you are treating your love life like a business transaction, but the reality is that there are many women out there who would bring you down and stand in your way of finding true love and building a stable family. So in a world that penalizes men we need a contract that equalizes things for us more.

But what will a properly conducted prenup protect you from? What are the benefits? What exactly can you demand from your partner?

In a prenup I would like to limit alimony from a lifetime to something more reasonable like three years. I would also need a way to protect investments in case of a divorce.

I am in California but would like to hear any relevant experiences.

Thanks!


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

I live in a non-alimony State, but alimony seems to be a seriously outdated concept. This isn't the 1950's - any woman under about 50 is responsible for being prepared to stand on her own two feet financially, IMO. Except for rare circumstances (the Amish?), I think alimony should be limited to more like zero. 

Consider child custody and support. Unilateral child support payments to the mother... again, zero comes to mind, assuming two involved parents. Visitation and all child related costs should be split 50/50. This would probably require setting up a "child support" bank account to which both parents contribute equally.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Your pre-marriage property is already protected, at least in my State. Anything you earn after marriage, from both parties, is community property and subject to 50/50 division. I don't really have a problem with that.


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## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

Ontherocks. What stae do you live in if you don't mind me asking?


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

I've never been married, but I was engaged to be married this year. She cheated and now I am sooooooo pro-prenup, it's not even funny.

My current GF and I got talking about how her Mom and step dad had a prenup and I took the opportunity to say, flat-out that I thought a prenup was the only intelligent way to approach marriage today. Well, that didn't scare her off yet so, if things ever get to that point, the seeds have been sewn.

In 2012 and beyond, the only way I could see NOT getting a prenup is if you are <25 and both sets of parents were high school sweethearts.

The spirit of the advice here is very well-taken.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Check with a divorce lawyer about the validity of a pre-nup in CA.

I have no idea what it is like in California, but I would not even consider marriage without a pre-nup these days.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Summer4744 said:


> After reading the many stories here at TAM, I have to admit to being a little down on marriage. I know that there are good marriages etc, but I never treated marriage as the decision that will make or break me.
> 
> I now realize that it would be foolish to marry without a prenup. It's not that you are treating your love life like a business transaction, but the reality is that there are many women out there who would bring you down and stand in your way of finding true love and building a stable family. So in a world that penalizes men we need a contract that equalizes things for us more.
> 
> ...


Dear Summer4744,

You would be foolish to make any decisions about a prenuptial agreement based on advice you receive from strangers over the internet.

Below is a link that explains the basics of prenups in California. However, there is no substitute for speaking to a lawyer who is familiar with California family law.

The validity of the prenuptial agreements in California

Good luck.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

TX
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phlliphethe (Dec 25, 2012)

This would probably require setting up a "child support" bank account to which both parents contribute equally.


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## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

Carmen. I am not looking to get law advise from TAM. when I get a prenup someday I will get a lawyer.

Just wanted a general idea about whether or not people have found prenups to be worth it with minimal lawyer speak. 

Prenups can be overturned and it still seems like there are a lot people getting screwed even with prenups. So was just looking to see what the general consensus was on whether they were worth it or not.


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## Married in VA (Jan 6, 2012)

Rather than a pre-nup, why not go the civil union route instead of marriage? Marriage consists of two distinct parts:

1. The exclusive relationship with husband and wife.

2. The legal contract that provides decision making and tax benefits, etc. This is what screws people when divorcing.

Remember - Spousal support laws were written by feminists to transfer wealth from men to women via the family court system.
Child support laws were written by feminists to transfer wealth from men to women via the family court system.

Seeing a pattern here? In divorce, it's not about what's fair. There is no due process in family court. It's mostly 10 minutes in front of a judge who looks at what you make and figures out how to carve up your paycheck to support two households on one income. Bad news if you are the bread winner. 

Having a pre-nup would be the MINIMUM that I would do should I ever marry again. I am thinking the civil union route so I can still give decision making capability to my future SO but that is it. No marriage until the laws become more gender friendly.


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

Summer4744 said:


> I now realize that it would be foolish to marry without a prenup.
> 
> In a prenup I would like to limit alimony from a lifetime to something more reasonable like three years. I would also need a way to protect investments in case of a divorce.


It's foolish to marry. Period.

You want to protect your investments and not be obligated for alimony then don't freaking get married. 

It's a gamble you're most likely to lose.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

sharkeey said:


> It's foolish to marry. Period.
> 
> You want to protect your investments and not be obligated for alimony then don't freaking get married.
> 
> It's a gamble you're most likely to lose.


Looks like in California you don't have to be married to get screwed over.

Myth – Courts don’t order support or property division for couples who never married

In California, the court recognizes palimony (Marvin claim). This means that if a couple lives together for an extended period of time and splits, he or she may have a right to receive support and/or a right to certain property acquired during the relationship. Always speak with an attorney to discuss your unique situation.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Summer4744 said:


> I am in California but would like to hear any relevant experiences.
> 
> Thanks!


First step: MOVE!


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Married in VA said:


> Remember - Spousal support laws were written by feminists to transfer wealth from men to women via the family court system.
> Child support laws were written by feminists to transfer wealth from men to women via the family court system.


Huh.

It had nothing to do with men who shipped their assets to Costa Rica or some other tax haven to keep from offering basic support for their spouses? (Happened to my sister's accquaintance)

It had nothing to do with abandonment.

It had nothing to do with frivilous accusations of infidelity or abandonment by poor excuses for men...and women.

Getting involvedi in He Said/She Said isn't worth the courts time. They look at ONE thing: kids. She could be the biggest ho bag in the state. He could be the worst abusive a-hole around.

How do they determine that? They can't (And believe me, I am certainly NOT pro-feminist...unless they define feminism as being willing to be sexually empowered enough to wear cheerleader uniforms on their own...)

OP, if you are afraid of losing assets, stay poor or don't marry.

That is not the point of marriage. And bear in mind that if you put in something about infidelity, your spouse isn't an idiot. She will be the frigging Underminer if she decides to stray...or divorce you before she strays. And you better be a saint as well because it cuts both ways.

Just saying


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Let me add this:

The pendulum has swung too far. I live in India as an expat of sorts. Women are DESTROYED if they cheat, reputationally and financially IF the husband wants to (we had that recent poster who knew what would happen to his wife if he exposed. He wouldn't because he felt affection for her and a short move isn't the protection that it is here for women)

So...men are seeing their peers who really did nothing wrong and were what they were told they should be taking it in the shorts because their wives wanted a bit of strange...or had some occult 'need' that they didn't or couldn't communicate to their husbands (hence the popularity of MMSL et al. Everyone wants AN answer).

So...now women are reaping what they or their sisters have sown regarding divorce laws and infidelity as the OP demonstrates. Men are relationship phobic because they've seen their comrades devestated after being 'too invested' in their spouses. Why work hard for someone who in 7,14,25 years will suddenly get itchy feet and leave them emotional wrecks with shattered finances to add insult to injury?

Now, ladies, i am not saying that men are angels. They cheat too and in greater numbers. BUT...generally when men are exposed, they throw their little extra away. Women...they tend to run.

Is it any wonder this guy asked this question?

Sad really.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

Married in VA said:


> Rather than a pre-nup, why not go the civil union route instead of marriage? Marriage consists of two distinct parts:
> 
> 1. The exclusive relationship with husband and wife.
> 
> ...


Hah, good luck with that. Who will change the laws? Most men don’t care about them until they are personally affected. And then it is already too late.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

JCD said:


> Let me add this:
> 
> The pendulum has swung too far. I live in India as an expat of sorts. Women are DESTROYED if they cheat, reputationally and financially IF the husband wants to (we had that recent poster who knew what would happen to his wife if he exposed. He wouldn't because he felt affection for her and a short move isn't the protection that it is here for women)
> 
> ...


Not sure if men cheat more. Looks like women are biggest cheats:
Think men are the unfaithful sex? A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats - they're just better at lying about it | Mail Online

This is something I noticed on this forum. It seems there are more stories about cheating wives.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Numbersixxx said:


> Not sure if men cheat more. Looks like women are biggest cheats:
> Think men are the unfaithful sex? A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats - they're just better at lying about it | Mail Online
> 
> This is something I noticed on this forum. It seems there are more stories about cheating wives.


It could be because this place is more male friendly. It could be because women already have support systems and men generally have fewer friends. It could be that you are absolutely correct. It could be that you are wrong.

I believe that men chase more and cheat more because they are hunters. But the also are horrible secret keepers and are more frequently discovered.

Women hide it like frigging Professor Moriarty and all they need to do is say 'yes' to a prospectiive swain. And as noted, they suffer SOME but not as many fiscal and reputational consequences these days.

Ladies, do your gender a favor: cut your cheating friends and make them suffer. 

Men...I'd give you advice but I'd be banned again.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

So according to this forum, and lots of men, you would advise someone like me, a young man getting a college education, to never marry. Or probably anyone getting a college degree for that matter. 

This is not the place I expected to hear that.


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## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

I would advise you to pursue love and someone who will help you build a better future.

Not some paper that is a license to plunder you.

If it is a good woman and she loves you she should be willing to give you this. Remember that you are not trying to pull one over on her and trick her into something where the law is skewed against her. You are just trying to remove yourself from a situation where the deck is stacked against you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Broken at 20 said:


> So according to this forum, and lots of men, you would advise someone like me, a young man getting a college education, to never marry. Or probably anyone getting a college degree for that matter.
> 
> This is not the place I expected to hear that.


Really? Exactly how many here think that. The advise to do a prenup though is good.


Cocerning who cheats the most:

In a radio interview, the owner of the biggest women's cheating website says that now, more women than men sign up for cheating in Australia.

I still think that since it takes two to cheat, the disparity in numbers is in the fact women won't admit to as much as men and men are more likely to brag about it. It takes two to tango after all and if more men cheat than women, it seems to follow more women would have to cheat with more partners than men. This assumes both partners in an adulterous relationship are cheaters.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Oh, and some states just divide things 50/50 including the kids. Around here even the young unmarried fathers seem to be getting 50/50 custody.

What I have read here in the past seems to be that a prenup will have no bearing on custody or child support if contested. However, ones partner may not realize that.

I think we should start pushing state legislators to enact wisconsins law

Adultery Wisconsin Law | Adultery is a crime in Wisconsin | Law Offices of criminal defense attorney Christopher Van Wagner criminal defense attorney Tracey Wood Madison Wisconsin


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

JCD said:


> It could be because this place is more male friendly. It could be because women already have support systems and men generally have fewer friends. It could be that you are absolutely correct. It could be that you are wrong.
> 
> I believe that men chase more and cheat more because they are hunters. But the also are horrible secret keepers and are more frequently discovered.
> 
> ...


Yes, men are hunters but still have (at least some) sense of honor and nobility. Once you give your word, you honour your commitment. These are virtues traditionally expected from men. Not that I’m saying women don’t have them or that all men do, just what were historical expectations. Protector-provider, chivalry and stuff like that.

Again from personal experience… Most men I know that cheated did it on their girlfriends, not wives. Most marriage infidelity cases I know involve cheating wives. It may not universally hold true. Or it may be simply because men don’t have the same opportunities – getting laid is in general much easier for women. Regardless who cheated, it is equally despicable. 

Whatever the case, we may never know for sure. Studies about cheating are based on surveys and respondents can lie.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> So according to this forum, and lots of men, you would advise someone like me, a young man getting a college education, to never marry. Or probably anyone getting a college degree for that matter.
> 
> This is not the place I expected to hear that.


How old are you? Early twenties?

I am not married or anything, but my recommendation is to educate yourself. 

Review the legal obligations regarding marriage and more importantly divorce. Maybe ask for an expert’s opinion. You should always know your rights and duties. 

Then look at the relevant statistics in your demographic group regarding divorce, happy marriages, infidelity (although these statistics are not completely reliable, they give you an approximate picture), etc… I would also suggest looking at anecdotal cases, especially about those that got completely screwed, be it via child custody, false domestic violence charges, or by legal theft through unfair wealth division and alimony after divorce. This should give you an idea what you are putting yourself into, what are your success chances and what can you expect in the worst case scenario. 

This goes without saying, but you should always look for character traits in your potential marriage partner and determine the value of the risk related to the concrete situation.

At the end you do a cost-benefit analysis. Is the risk worth the reward? Your life, your choice.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

OnTheRocks said:


> *TX*_Posted via Mobile Device_


OTR: I'm in Texas also. Married(STBXW), a wealthy woman in Texas back in 2004, and was made to sign a prenup basically to keep me from attempting to go after her "wealth" in the event of a breakup. My attorney also agreed that it's basic precepts were set up to protect her money.

Now that she has filed for D over a year ago(still separated), she's trying to use some ambiguous verbage in it to allegedly come after as much as a quarter-mil from me for my part of the expenditures during the 7-1/2 year marriage. Hell, I don't even have 2-1/2K to give her. My attorney informs me that she can only sue me for it under Texas community property law.

In Texas, a prenup is pretty much put into a "no-fault" divorce hearing meaning that STBXW could be a card-carrying prostitute and there would be no grounds for it in a "no-fault" hearing. However, if she does decide to sue under Texas community property law, then she has to open up all of her personal assets to scrutiny, and the hearing would accordingly become an "at-fault" hearing. Now since STBXW had two different relationships with her two BF's prior to separation, the "at-fault" hearing would allow for us to counterfile for adultery, and to call both of them in as our witnesses against her. If she loses the "at-fault" hearing, then she might well have to forfeit some of her community property holdings.

We don't really think that she's quite dumb enough to try to go that route!


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