# Please help - does she have BPD?



## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm in a relationship that is quickly sinking and I'm worried about how much longer I can keep things together. I'm so thankful for forums like this one as I can't imagine what I'd do if I had no where to turn for advice.

I'm newlywed and my wife is from another developed country and from an affluent family. She's very well educated and is as smart as they come. However, her family is pretty dysfunctional as her dad is a workaholic and her mother is probably a BPD'er - prone to bouts of rage, stabbing at doors, very difficult to deal with. My wife has said that she remembers their fights since she was 4 and has seen them fight violently at least 20+ times. Everyone walks on egg shells to avoid making her mother angry.

I've looked at symptoms of BPD online and while I'm not looking to make any sort of diagnosis, I do want to know what other people think.

Why I think she may have it:

She gets angry very quickly (or inappropriately as many lists say)
When she is angry, it takes a long time to subside. She holds the anger inside and whenever she revists the episode that made her angry, it's almost as if it just happened to her again. 
Her traumatic childhood
Afraid of abandonment
Very insecure (she says this herself)
Very prone to shopping binges (impulsivity). She says buying things and material things make her feel secure.
She is on Wellbutrin, but not taking it daily. Doctors in another country prescribed them to her
She says she would commit suicide if she were brave enough
She says that she has imagined stabbing me with a knife
She is ocd about keeping a clean apartment
She can get physically violent

What makes me unsure:

We are both under intense pressure. I'm in grad school, and she's dealing with the stresses of moving to a completely new country and a garbage language program. She's left everything she's ever known, was a city girl, and moved to be with me in this really boring college town. She misses the shopping, the dining, her friends etc. It makes me think that maybe when we go to a bigger city, things will get better
I've done plenty of misdeeds in the past that make her hate me. I constantly contacted an ex-gf against her request to not do so. I have not done this for about 4-5 months now and will not ever do so again. However, she says she remembers this and hates me for it greatly. I've also told a couple of my best friends about what's happened in our relationship and complained to them about what she did to me. She found out about this by reading through my emails and chat logs. I called her the b word in some of those transcripts and said I hated her in them. 
She doesn't idealize me one second and then think I'm evil the next. She just thinks I'm evil

Basically, I'm not sure if this is BPD or if I've just hurt her so much in the past that she hates me now and is going crazy. For the past few months, I've become progressively more and more "well-behaved" out of fear. Nowadays, I keep my mouth shut about everything and just let her act out. I don't do the sarcastic forced nice, but really do my best to keep calm and nice.

Please help...I really am scared/hurt/weak all the time...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

No one here can diagnose your wife. From what you have said, she should see a psychiatrist. Let them figure it out. Maybe you should tell her that dealing with her is so hard that you need her to do this so you can stay with her.
Don’t try to label her with anything. Even if she has BPD, or any other disorder, she is responsible for her behavior. She is responsible for knowing what sets her off and having a plan to prevent herself form going off. Too many people seem to use mental disorders as excuses.

Taking meds like Wellbutrin on and off can cause some serious problems.

What it sounds like to me is that she learned to be who she is by watching her parents. She grew up seeing a lot of violence and anger. So now she’s doing the same thing. See if you can get her help.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

By the way, it's best if you have just one thread, that way your story does not get diluted.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jnyu44 said:


> I've looked at symptoms of BPD online and while I'm not looking to make any sort of diagnosis, I do want to know what other people think.


JNYU, welcome to the TAM forum. I agree that the behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal and physical abuse, lack of impulse control, suicidal ideation, low self esteem, and fear of abandonment -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has.

Of course, only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having the full-blown disorder. Yet, even when they fall well below that level, such traits can make your life miserable and undermine a marriage.

Only a professional, then, can determine whether your W "has BPD," i.e., has the full-blown disorder. You can truthfully say, however, that she "has BPD traits." Everybody on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits. Splitting, for example, is something you do many times every day -- every time you daydream or are suddenly startled.

Further, it also is okay for you to say she "has strong BPD traits" if that is what you are seeing and the symptoms are persistent over time. Significantly, there is nothing subtle or nuanced about traits such as verbal abuse, physical abuse, and temper tantrums.

Before you graduated high school, IAMCIV, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. 

Similarly, you are able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. This is why it is okay to say she "has strong BPD traits" if that is what you have been seeing for years. As I caution below, however, you are not seeing a strong pattern of BPD traits if they are not persistent over time. Hence, if she has been behaving this way only over the past 5 months, you are not describing the type of emotional damage that is associated with strong BPD traits.


> What makes me unsure: We are both under intense pressure.... I've done plenty of misdeeds in the past that make her hate me.


If your W actually has strong persistent BPD traits, the damage to her emotional core occurred in early childhood and the symptoms (i.e., traits) likely started in the mid-teens -- when she was first trying to establish LTRs outside the home. This means that strong BPD traits are persistent and do not disappear for years at a time. The only time they vanish typically is during the honeymoon period, at which time a BPDer's infatuation holds her twin fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay.

At issue, then, is whether you saw red flags of BPD traits occurring before you hurt your W by contacting your ex. How long have you been married and how long was the dating before that? Has the emotional instability and outpouring of anger been limited only to the past 5 months? What was her relationships like with previous BFs (does she badmouth them)?


> She doesn't idealize me one second and then think I'm evil the next. She just thinks I'm evil. Basically, I'm not sure if this is BPD or if I've just hurt her so much in the past that she hates me now and is going crazy.


Yes, that is unclear. If she is a BPDer, she may have split you black permanently, which would explain why you don't see her flipping from one extreme to the other. If she is not a BPDer, her behavior may be explained by her anger over your treatment of her. Significantly, BPDers are emotionally unstable. Hence, if you are not seeing emotional instability, you are not seeing a persistent problem with BPD traits.


> Please help...I really am scared/hurt/weak all the time.


I suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- on your own for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid professional opinion as to what it is you likely are dealing with. And, while you are waiting for an appointment, I suggest you read more about BPD traits so you know what red flags to look for. You will find excellent online resources available at BPDfamily.com, the largest BPD forum that is targeted only to "Nons" like us. 

An easy place to start reading, here on TAM, is my post describing these traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Finally, if you have time to answer the questions I pose above, I would be glad to discuss your responses with you. Take care, JNYU.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

What does it matter what you call it? Bottom line is it's toxic and you are being abused.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> No one here can diagnose your wife. From what you have said, she should see a psychiatrist. Let them figure it out.... Don’t try to label her with anything.


EleGirl, although you are one of my favorite members, and although I usually agree with all your sage advice on TAM, I strongly disagree with you on this statement. IME, when a spouse has been verbally and physically abused for 5 months by a W who hates him, it would be a disastrous course of action for him to simply send his W to a therapist and "let them figure it out." 

The problem is that, if the W is a BPDer, there is very little chance that the therapist will tell the W, much less tell her H. It is well known that therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder. The result is that millions of spouses like me end up staying in doomed toxic relationships for years -- because the therapists are ethically bound to protect their sick clients (instead of giving the spouses the information needed to set them free).

I learned that the hard way -- after spending a small fortune taking my exW to weekly visits with six different psychologists over a 15 year period. None of them would tell me the name of her disorder. Indeed, the last psychologist -- who treated my exW for five years -- always told me "I don't believe labels are useful" whenever I would ask what was wrong with my exW. At the end, when I was very insistent, that psych would say only that she had "a thought disorder" (which, of course, is what BPD is). 

As I've discussed in other threads, there are many reasons that psychologists withhold that information. One is that, because a BPDer is always seeking a sense of who she really is, giving her a new identity -- as "a BPDer" -- can easily make her behavior worse. That is, she may start exhibiting 8 or 9 of the BPD traits instead of only 5.

Another reason is that insurance companies usually refuse to cover BPD treatments but they will cover the treatments if the diagnosis is listed instead as one of the associated side effects, e.g., depression, anxiety, or PTSD. A third reason is that the therapist knows a high functioning BPDer almost certainly will quit therapy on being given that dreaded diagnosis.

For these reasons, I believe it is very important that JNYU find out exactly what "label" applies to his W -- to ensure that he is not waiting for 15 years (as I did) for an improvement in her behavior that is extremely unlikely to occur. 

One way of obtaining that label is to see a clinical psychologist -- on his own -- and hope that the psych will give him a professional opinion (without seeing the W). The psych may be willing to do that -- but he may not be willing. This is why I am encouraging JNYU -- as a back up -- to keep reading about BPD traits, so he is able to spot the red flags when they occur.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Uptown said:


> EleGirl, although you are one of my favorite members, and although I usually agree with all your sage advice on TAM, I strongly disagree with you on this statement. IME, when a spouse has been verbally and physically abused for 5 months by a W who hates him, it would be a disastrous course of action for him to simply send his W to a therapist and "let them figure it out."


I must have not stated my postion well enough. I agree with you on what you have said.

My reason for telling him to not try to diagnose and put a label on her behavior is that her behavior is abusive to him. He needs to take care of himself. That probably means leaving her. 

If she is going to get any help it's not going to be her husband giving it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Sorry, EleGirl, I misunderstood your statement.


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

Uptown - thank you so much for your help. I noticed that you have been of great help to a lot of people on this forum regarding BPD and I just wanted to let you know how much I cherish the fact that there is someone out there willing to share his experiences and spend his time helping other out. 

To answer your questions:



> At issue, then, is whether you saw red flags of BPD traits occurring before you hurt your W by contacting your ex. How long have you been married and how long was the dating before that? Has the emotional instability and outpouring of anger been limited only to the past 5 months? What was her relationships like with previous BFs (does she badmouth them)?


To keep things clear, we have been together for about 2.5 years now. We were together in the foreign country from Nov 2009-Jun 2010, long distance from June 2010-June 2011, married June 2011 - August 2011, then moved here to the states August 2011- Now.

From the very beginning our relationship had always been rocky. This is due to the fact that I had contact with my ex since the very beginning but for some reason or another, we were willing to stay with each other (even though we had broken up 2-3 times over the span of 7 months while in the other country). I figured that I always gave her a reason to be angry (contacting my ex or some other stupid stuff). I was very, very immature when I met her and did a lot of irresponsible things that drove her nuts (not being responsible about my visitors visa, etc.) So because of that, I had always blamed myself for her anger, which is something I still think may be reasonable.

Long distance of course, is mostly a good experience. You don't have to see the ugly side of the other person as the communication is generally limited to an hour or two, and you're generally happy to see one another.

However, I do distinctly remember that when she would come to visit me after every 3-4 months, we'd have bad fights. However, given that her stays were between 2-4 weeks, they were tolerable and soon forgotten.

A big red flag was when we got married this past summer in the foreign country. We started having really bad fights leading up to the engagement banquet (equivalent to marriage in the foreign country). However, I just attributed it to the fact that she was under intense pressure from organizing the engagement banquet (350 guests) and obviously I had a ton of social pressure to see this through. 

After the engagement banquet was when we moved to the states and hell promptly started. 

In regards to ex-bfs, she only bad mouthed one and he really was a complete jerk she was with to rebel against her parents. She's had 7 other bfs which I thought was a bit much, but not so much that I thought abnormal (also, she didn't have one night stands or short term flings or anything like that; she wouldn't lie about that either). She broke up with a couple because her parents disapproved, a couple because of long distance, one because he said she had too much of a princess attitude, and one just completely up and left her one day (they were living together).



> I suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- on your own for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid professional opinion as to what it is you likely are dealing with.


We are both seeing school counselors. Thank god she was willing to see one...at first she said it was a huge embarrassment and wouldn't do it. I think once she saw that I fully embraced it, she was willing to start going. My counselor has been helpful, although I don't see him as much due to school being so busy.

I'm going to do some more observing and thinking over the next few weeks. When we do have our calm periods (which are certainly manufactured by my silence and continual calming her down), things are tolerable and sometimes even sort of happy. However, it's just so hard for me to imagine living a life with someone who absolutely refuses to let others voice their wants or opinions if they conflict with her wants and opinions. It feels like I'm holding a porcupine all the time.

Again, thank you so much uptown =)


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

> Newlyweds. How long have you been married?


2 months officially, 9 months (since July) since the ceremony in a different country



> Stress of new move to foreign country with different language. How long has it been since you've moved?


7 months (since September)



> You admit to treating her poorly and contacting past girlfriends. You said it's been 4-5 months since you've done so. Is the reason the move or is the reason you are faithful and dedicated to the relationship with your new wife?


It was a combination of things. I think contact with my ex just died off naturally since she lives in Europe and we are both busy. My counselor also told me I should stop temporarily so I listened to him. Another reason is that after getting caught by my wife, she makes sure I suffer for it (and rightfully so). A big part of why I may have continued contact with my ex is that I felt like my wife was being unreasonable. My wife wouldn't let me say goodbye to my ex via a last contact email/message so I felt like I couldn't get closure. I thought that was really unfair and was upset about it. There was another girl (who was flirty) who I didn't even date whom my wife hated and made me cut off contact with.



> Does her behavior differ from when you two were dating? If so, does it coincide with the move? Did it start after you contacted your ex?


Hopefully my response to uptown above address this question



> I'm of the personal opinion that she's most likely having difficulty adapting and feels forced to fit in with your life and your future while she does not trust you and so she resents and dislikes you deeply.
> 
> Is she very honest by nature? Some of the things you say she said could be her blunt way of trying to get rid of all the negativity she feels in your relationship as well as in her new life in the college town you're staying in.
> 
> Marriage alone is a huge adjustment. Marriage to a man you don't feel loves you and you are unable to trust really stinks. Moving to a new country with a language barrier and having to learn new cultures, behaviors, etc. with a man you can't trust to be your guide sucks super squared big time.


I think you're RIGHT on the mark with this. This is turning out to be one of my biggest regrets. When I married, it was more of a practical thing for both of us. Yes I knew I wasn't head over heels in love with her, but I believed that love is something that is built over time. At the time of marriage, I did struggle with marrying someone I wasn't completely physically attracted to, but I also thought that I was just being superficial. I have an ex who I thought was absolutely gorgeous and whom I worshiped (although others thought she was ok haha), but it was hard for me to put my foot down with her. One look from her and I just wanted to give her the world. Unfortunately, she took advantage of that and I definitely learned my lesson. My wife is more plain looking in our culture (although Americans here do say she's beautiful so go figure), but she has high moral fiber and that is something I really cherish about her. However, her anger and outbursts has just been so overwhelming over the last few months that she could be the most attractive woman in the world and I still wouldn't be willing to be with her. I don't know if I'm just being dramatic and emotional (which I try very hard not to be of course), but I do feel like I'm getting damaged psychologically. I do things now that I never would have done before. For example, without any thinking, I called a good friend of mine at 1am (he was pretty ticked off) whereas I would have NEVER done that sort of thing in the past. I also feel like my train of thought is much more scattered than in the past. At this very moment, I feel like I'm doing a very poor job of being clear to you guys in my responses. I try very actively to keep my thoughts cohesive, but I have the nagging feeling that sometimes I ramble and am not cohesive. I feel like I'm losing my grip on logic and cohesion, but then I just tell myself I'm being dramatic and that it's not happening. 



> The diagnosis bit is pointless. She's crying out for support and guidance from you...in my humble opinion. She needs to find a space where she feels comfortable, safe and can do her own thing.


I think this is the problem. It's so hard for me to be GENUINELY nice and loving to her when we're constantly hurting each other. Of course, one of us has to break the cycle, so I resolved to at least stop being mean and start forcing smiles and being kind to her. This is the best I can do though. However, I still get so upset that while she's in the bathroom I'll do childish things like give her the middle finger and mouth the f word at her (obv she can't see it because the door is shut). It's like I can't control myself sometimes and this is what worries me. However, it's infrequent enough that I'm not panicked about it at the moment. 

Right at this very moment, things are ok because I've managed to tip toe around her emotionally. I have a short term memory and after terrible fights, I'd be completely fine and happy the next day. Problem is she would wake up angry and remind me of it all over again. Recently, I've been determined to remember our fights and how she really can be. I believe that a characteristic of a BPD'er is that they go from being normal to really angry in a manner of seconds. So, while things are OK now, I am now aware that they can, at any second, turn into complete hell, misery and suffering. Strange thing is, it feels so distant to me because of my short term memory...which makes me think that I can do this...but I think that's dangerous because that means I'd allow this to be my life...and I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to let this be his life.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It sounds to me like you married for the wrong reasons. And one of them most definitely wasn’t love, which would have been the right reason. I can’t imagine what marriage would be like without love in it, some sort of living hell I would have thought.



So why did you marry? If it was for money and/or if it was an arranged marriage then I think that’s going to cost you dearly.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

could be the case


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

*** This reply is a bit off-topic to the original question and is more useful as background information ***

My wife does have some great qualities that I love about her. I love that she's of high moral fiber - she's never lied to me, and she follows rules to a tee no matter how much easier it is to skirt them. This I admire her a lot for. She's also very intelligent - she tested into the top .01% in her country on the national college exam. This is also something I value. She's also very hard working and will not quit something simply because it's too hard or she's lazy. These are qualities I still do love and admire her for. She's also feminine enough that that isn't a problem for me. Sex for us was also frequent and great in the beginning as it is for most people, but yes it died off as it does for most people.

Aside from these things, yes her family's prominence and wealth was a factor, but it wasn't the only factor (my family background is similar so it wasn't this huge deal). Being financially secure was certainly important to me. So many couples break up and divorce over finances (and I don't blame them; I think economically this world is unfair and ridiculous), that I wanted to make sure that it wouldn't be a problem for me. 

Bottom line is I really believed that love was going to be something that we worked on and built together. No she isn't exactly what I like physically in a woman so I obviously don't get that butterflies feeling, but I had healthy respect and admiration for her. Enough so that I thought we could build love out of sharing our lives together. 

It sucks because I was trying to do the right thing. I was trying to marry someone because of qualities they had. I hate that I'll see a beautiful girl and want to treat her better simply because she's attractive. I've been trying to change that about myself and yes, I do believe it can be changed. I know a lot of people will say guys are just more visual and we're hardwired to be more caring to attractive women, but I think that's not the whole story (ie, I think the emphasis on attraction depends on the society you're raised in). In the country my family is originally from, there are a lot of high earning, high quality men who prefer marrying women who are of higher intelligence, moral fiber, and more plain looking. I've been trying to change myself because logically I know the benefits of the latter are much greater. It's been so d**n hard to shake that feeling though. 

***

Anyway, the above is all moot when I'm faced with thinking about living with someone who I can't share my real feelings with and have to walk on eggshells around. If you aren't someone who has been in this situation, you really have no idea how terrifying, difficult, and miserable it can be living with someone with anger problems.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

jnyu44 said:


> her family is pretty dysfunctional as her dad is a workaholic and her mother is probably a BPD'er - prone to bouts of rage, stabbing at doors, very difficult to deal with. My wife has said that she remembers their fights since she was 4 and has seen them fight violently at least 20+ times. Everyone walks on egg shells to avoid making her mother angry.
> 
> Basically, I'm not sure if this is BPD or if I've just hurt her so much in the past that she hates me now and is going crazy. For the past few months, I've become progressively more and more "well-behaved" out of fear. Nowadays, I keep my mouth shut about everything and just let her act out. I don't do the sarcastic forced nice, but really do my best to keep calm and nice.
> 
> Please help...I really am scared/hurt/weak all the time...


Whether or not this is BPD is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is only a matter of time until she sees you as responsible for all the pain and anger she holds over from childhood. She needs to be able to forgive her parents and give up all the bad feelings she is holding on to and you need to lead and assist her in this endeavor. This is an enormous responsibility to be dumped in your lap and the sooner you get started, the better off you will be later.

Please get over that scared/weak/hurt stuff and start dealing with this from a position of strength and self confidence. Even though you probably didn't do anything to bring this all into your marriage, the responsibility to do something about it is squarely on your shoulders.


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

Trenton said:


> It bothers me that you married her but were not in love with her. Were you honest with her and did you tell her you weren't that attracted to her?


No, I did not. I thought we could build our love once I got past the superficial stage. I still think it's possible if we could get past the arguing and her anger issues



> She is smart and attractive. You need to help her find a job or life path that will excite her and allow her to use her intelligence. She's obviously capable of doing some great things.


She certainly is capable of great things and I don't want to take that away from her. However, I have encouraged her to do and study what she wants, even if that meant we had to separate temporarily (and no I'm not using that as an excuse to get away and cheat; I don't want her to give up her dreams because of me). However, what I cannot do is decide for her what she should do. I have given suggestions in the past, but it always comes back to her thinking she's too old (I've told her several times she isn't; she just turned 31). She's also spent the last 5-6 years of her life in a field she doesn't like but is afraid to leave. 



> If you want the arguments to end and for her to value you, begin to value her. It's obvious that you admire her but do not value her.


I think that's a bit of a leap. If we were just having normal fights and arguments, this wouldn't be such a big deal. However, someone clenching their fists really hard and drewling while scholding you in what looks like a rage, saying they've thought about killing you, and getting angry because I dripped a little bit of coffee on the table (drip, NOT spill) is not what I think is something that can be fixed because I admire and love her.


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Whether or not this is BPD is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is only a matter of time until she sees you as responsible for all the pain and anger she holds over from childhood. She needs to be able to forgive her parents and give up all the bad feelings she is holding on to and you need to lead and assist her in this endeavor. This is an enormous responsibility to be dumped in your lap and the sooner you get started, the better off you will be later.
> 
> Please get over that scared/weak/hurt stuff and start dealing with this from a position of strength and self confidence. Even though you probably didn't do anything to bring this all into your marriage, the responsibility to do something about it is squarely on your shoulders.


I appreciate your input. Would you be willing to share more about your experience with this? I don't think just about anyone could just "get over it" and be able to deal with the situation.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I have said this before. I will repeat it. I do not believe that BPD is common or even vaguely common. I think it is exceedingly rare and salvageable. To me a real BPD is a pure sociopath with O.D.D.

Having said that what strikes me is that the collection of behaviors most people here talk about sounds very ordinary if you look at them as a dry drunk. This kind of anger driven insecure instability is generally what a dry drunk looks like. I think if you look at these behaviors as that you're better served than looking at them in terms of a very exotic and rare pathology that can't actually be fixed.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

jnyu44 said:


> I appreciate your input. Would you be willing to share more about your experience with this? I don't think just about anyone could just "get over it" and be able to deal with the situation.


I'm sure you are able to deal with the situation but you will have to learn some new ways of thinking.

First, accept that whatever your wife does cannot make you weak. She may make you feel weak, but she cannot make you weak. Along with feeling scared and hurt, the only way your wife can make you feel scared, hurt and weak is if you allow her to. You own your feelings. You alone allow yourself to have these feelings. This is probably be a little bit out of your comfort zone but you just can't allow yourself to continue feeling this way. More specifically, whatever you feel, and I know it's not fun to experience someone's rage, you have to let these feelings go and not hold on to them. You are seeing yourself as scared, hurt and weak and you hold on to these feelings to support your current self image. In order to do what you need to do, you need to see yourself as courageous, powerful and strong. And you really are these things, you have just allowed yourself to think otherwise.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Red flags everywhere. Based on my own experience, I am not optimistic but I will offer what I can.

First, you have to accept that you are not responsible for her feelings, she is. You cannot control how she feels, you can only control how you will deal with it.

Second, need to stop treating her like a man. Women remember *everything* and a woman like your wife will stay in the moment to throw it all at you while men tend to want to move on and get frustrated that his woman can't or won't do that. Therefore you need to learn how to deal with her without getting into fights which she will always remember. If her interaction with you starts turning chippy, tell her firmly "I can't talk to you when you're like that" and walk away. If you can't walk away, just shut down no matter how hard it is, you won't engage when she's like that. Only engage when she's calm and distance yourself otherwise. Don't get into fighting with her, that just feeds the BPD tendencies in her.

Third, you need to learn how to make it unacceptable for her to treat you this way. You do this by communicating how you feel without pointing any fingers at her. This may consist of things like not complying with reasonable requests made in an unreasonable tone of voice. Don't do them, period. Tell her "I feel disrespected when you ask me like that." When she calms down and asks in a reasonable tone of voice, then reward that by complying.

These are just starter notes, no guarantee of success, but remember behaving as you have been is guaranteed to end the marriage. As she has been modeling her mother's behavior, it will take a long time to turn her around if she ever does and you may find that there are still bad days. But hopefully they are reduced to the point where you can see staying with her without walking on eggshells. Finally, you need to be prepared to leave if the situation doesn't improve over time. and oh yeah, one more, don't have kids with her until this is resolved. This doesn't improve with kids. Unless she is working on it.


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

> OK. Not normal but perhaps not so abnormal for a woman who feels like she does. You are not responsible for her happiness or to be her motivation and so I'm not trying to put that on you. Nor should you stay in a relationship if you truly feel she is a threat to you. Do you feel she is a threat to you?
> 
> She needs to get her poo together and inspire herself. Unfortunately, only she can do that for herself.


Thanks for your input though. I definitely want to stay unbiased (although it's so hard) because I think one of the worst things I can do is label her a BPD'er when she's not and view her that way. I certainly concede the fact that this may just be an extremely hard time for her and that things may get better.

However, I'm deathly scared that I do end up with someone who is very difficult to be with. I already often feel so drained and I've gone from being fed up to just being very nervous all the time. I don't feel like she is a threat to me at this moment.



> I have said this before. I will repeat it. I do not believe that BPD is common or even vaguely common. I think it is exceedingly rare and salvageable. To me a real BPD is a pure sociopath with O.D.D.
> 
> Having said that what strikes me is that the collection of behaviors most people here talk about sounds very ordinary if you look at them as a dry drunk. This kind of anger driven insecure instability is generally what a dry drunk looks like. I think if you look at these behaviors as that you're better served than looking at them in terms of a very exotic and rare pathology that can't actually be fixed.


Noted - but it really seems like there are plenty of people not only on this forum but many other on the internet who share this similar experience. I've had other significant others before, and my fights with them NEVER were nearly as bad as my fights with her.



> I'm sure you are able to deal with the situation but you will have to learn some new ways of thinking.
> 
> First, accept that whatever your wife does cannot make you weak. She may make you feel weak, but she cannot make you weak. Along with feeling scared and hurt, the only way your wife can make you feel scared, hurt and weak is if you allow her to. You own your feelings. You alone allow yourself to have these feelings. This is probably be a little bit out of your comfort zone but you just can't allow yourself to continue feeling this way. More specifically, whatever you feel, and I know it's not fun to experience someone's rage, you have to let these feelings go and not hold on to them. You are seeing yourself as scared, hurt and weak and you hold on to these feelings to support your current self image. In order to do what you need to do, you need to see yourself as courageous, powerful and strong. And you really are these things, you have just allowed yourself to think otherwise.


Thank you for clarifying. While I have tried this to an extent, I might give this another go. The difficulty I encountered was that she will MAKE SURE you know that she is miserable. Then if you proceed to ignore her, she will MAKE SURE you suffer. I suppose then the right response would be to comfort her and help her whenever she's experiencing this rage. The problem then, I imagine, is that I would get very tired of this. As a grad student, I'm already studying around the clock, I spend a ton of time prepping for interviews for summer internships, while doing my share of household chores, bills, etc. Sometimes, I don't have the willpower to be the strong one at the end of the day. The other thing is, it's extremely trying when your spouse goes from raging and being angry at you, to the next moment crying because of her life situation. It's so hard to comfort someone who's crying who was just yelling at you 15 minutes ago. ugh...but I'm learning to do it...I'm just not sure how long I can keep this act together.



> Second, need to stop treating her like a man. Women remember *everything* and a woman like your wife will stay in the moment to throw it all at you while men tend to want to move on and get frustrated that his woman can't or won't do that. Therefore you need to learn how to deal with her without getting into fights which she will always remember.


I think this is fantastic advice. I wish I had known this waaaaayy back in high school. Of course, I learned the hard way.



> If her interaction with you starts turning chippy, tell her firmly "I can't talk to you when you're like that" and walk away. If you can't walk away, just shut down no matter how hard it is, you won't engage when she's like that. Only engage when she's calm and distance yourself otherwise. Don't get into fighting with her, that just feeds the BPD tendencies in her.
> 
> Third, you need to learn how to make it unacceptable for her to treat you this way. You do this by communicating how you feel without pointing any fingers at her. This may consist of things like not complying with reasonable requests made in an unreasonable tone of voice. Don't do them, period. Tell her "I feel disrespected when you ask me like that." When she calms down and asks in a reasonable tone of voice, then reward that by complying.


This definitely does not work with her, although I appreciate the suggestion. When she is in a rage, you CANNOT reason with her. You cannot just walk away. She will start slamming dishes if she's washing them, slamming cabinets and doors, and then she'll sleep on the couch (she refuses to let me do the sleeping on the couch because she doesn't want to pity me). When she is angry, and I say in a calm voice that I refuse to engage, she just gets much worse. She WILL make you suffer for it. 

The only two things that I know that work are: when I finally break down and start crying and hyperventilating. When that happens, it triggers something in her to feel sorry and take care of me. Obviously, I don't want to be doing this every time we get in an argument. I also feel like a total loser if I do this obviously. 

The other option is that I keep admitting fault and saying sorry over and over. This is where we are currently at ... I stay silent if I think she is wrong and if she's angry, I'll do everything in my power to make her happy. Obviously, this is not something that can work in perpetuity. 

We are seeing counselors individually, and as a couple (thank god for school counseling). Just started individually (2-3 meetings each of us), couple starts next week. I'm not super optimistic it will solve all of our problems, but it's a start.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> I have said this before. I will repeat it. I do not believe that BPD is common or even vaguely common. I think it is exceedingly rare and salvageable.


RLD, you are mistaken. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults funded by the National Institute of Mental Health (pub. 2008) found the prevalence of lifetime BPD -- at the diagnostic level -- to be 6% of the general population. Significantly, this is the only large scale study ever done to determine the prevalence of BPD. 

On top of that figure, there are perhaps another 2 or 3% of the population whose BPD traits always fall short of the diagnostic criteria (i.e., are less than 100% of those criteria) but are so strong that you would be miserable trying to live with them -- a person meeting only 90% of the criteria is nearly as difficult to live with as a person meeting 100%. If so, this means that 8 or 9% of the population has strong BPD traits (above or below the diagnostic level). This would make having strong BPD traits at least as common as being left handed (1 out of 12). See Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


> To me a real BPD is a pure sociopath with O.D.D.


No, there are many important differences between the two. For example, whereas sociopaths are emotionally stable, BPDers are very unstable. And, whereas sociopaths are incapable of loving you, a BPDer is capable of loving (albeit in a limited way like a young child).


> The collection of behaviors most people here talk about sounds very ordinary if you look at them as a dry drunk.


That is true only if you define "dry drunk" to mean being incapable of trusting other people, filled with self loathing and shame, having a distorted perception of other peoples' intentions, having little impulse control, strong fear of abandonment, having a weak and fragile self image, being emotionally unstable, and being prone to black-white thinking. I've never seen "dry drunk" defined that way.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Having said that what strikes me is that the collection of behaviors most people here talk about sounds very ordinary if you look at them as a dry drunk. This kind of anger driven insecure instability is generally what a dry drunk looks like. I think if you look at these behaviors as that you're better served than looking at them in terms of a very exotic and rare pathology that can't actually be fixed.


Very observant Runs. You might consider getting into counseling since it seems that almost no professional counselor can put this together even though it is remarkably common.

Whether or not we can label someone BPD, the described behaviors are clearly found in the adult children of alcoholic parents. Even more so when multiple generations of alcoholism results in the damaged children parenting an even more damaged children when they marry another alcoholic or become one themselves.

Clearly, the child learns to imitate drunken behavior from their parent(s). Ditto for thinking compulsive behavior is normal.

The niaaa says there are 17.6 million people with drinking problems in the United States. No doubt, they have plenty of kids.

Should good men avoid all women with any family history of alcoholism? Probably a good idea. But most of time the damage to a persons ability to form an intimate relationship doesn't show up until after marriage.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

and doesn't if figure, my first post here is about BPD...the thing that changed me and my life so drastically 2 years ago....

Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners saved my life and my sanity...have been lurking here for about 6 months trying to save my 17 year relationship...you are all also helping there...

This place has a wealth of info about BPD and an excellent message board full of people going thru things like you are...they get it :0


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you very much for the excellent resources uptown and notperfect. Will definitely do some reading up on this stuff. I'm not perfect unfortunately, which means I have to do some exploring on my own as well.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Why is it that we expect our children to behave their age but when it comes to our spouses a childish rage/temper tantrum is grounds for counseling? 

When my three year old son throws himself into a rage because I didn't buy him another lollipop after he's had one 5 minutes ago I tend to grin and bear it because, well that's what kids do. When my son turns 10 and he's throwing the same tantrum that's a big problem. If he's 35, married with kids and constantly throws a hissy fits because of the same lollipop then I expect his wife to divorce his childish ass. 

Folks, as adults we need to act like adults and stop treating both male and female offenders with kid gloves. I think if more people stopped putting up with this garbage from ADULTS we would not have so much divorce.

If only we could tag these nut jobs like cattle and avoid dating/marriage with them. 

The consequence of being a nasty person regardless of illness should be solitude and leave healthy people to find other healthy people.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

OP,

Whatever you do, DO NOT have children with this person. My exw is and continues to be angry at the world and blames everybody but herself for her problems. 

Just today she asked me if I had plans this Friday so she could eat dinner with her mom and I could watch our son. Normally this would be a no brainer and I would say yes even though technically its not my day to keep him but I take advantage of when I can. When I said a few co workers of mine wanted to take me out to get a beer and a cigar as a belated birthday present she blew a gasket and starting dropping F bombs in front of our son. Seriously? Do you honestly believe you can counsel this?


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Mmmm don't know. Here I think the wife is just miserable and wishing her circumstances were not as they are but feels unable to change it.


This is exactly right on the mark. The fact that you can completely relate to her does make me hesitant to peg everything on BPD. The reason it makes me hesitant is because it makes me think that maybe most women in this situation, ie when under extreme pressure, would act the way she does. That naturally leads me to wonder, how many women in her shoes would think their situation is crappy? 

I don't walk around with a scowl on my face all day making her feel like she doesn't measure up to expectations. I don't walk around like I'm unhappy I married her and that there's no chance I'll ever love her. I do household chores around the clock whenever it needs to be done. When she's got problems with homework, I'm more than happy to help her. I'm also paying the bills, food, etc. I also do the little things like pick her up from school when she could easily take the bus (it's a 5 minute bus ride; we're in a college town), and I don't forget anniversaries and special occasions (take her to nice hotels and fine dining like she likes). I know that these are really mechanical things and they don't replace love, but what I'm trying to point out is, despite the circumstances and the fighting and hatred going on, I'm still busting my behind to be a good husband and to make things work out. 

Remember in the first 2-3 months, we were both hurting. I had so much pressure from grad school and the relationship. She had pressure from moving to a new country and feeling like a second citizen in America (I get that in her country, she was well-respected because of her educational background and whatnot). Obviously, both of us wanted sympathy and help at that time, and NEITHER of us got it. 

Also, let it be known that her reasons for the marriage were also not completely out of love (she led me to believe so at the time). She did want to leave her country because she felt a lot of social pressure from her parents, environment etc. She also decided to marry because she had pressure from her parents and because of her age. While these were facts that I knew about it, I did not know (nor did I have any reason to suspect) that these were some of the reasons she married me. I am unhappy about it, but I don't hold it against her and I'm more than willing to move on and see if we can build a great life together.

I can also say that in general I'm probably bitter because her expectations of me are so high. She has a friend who's married to a guy who works at least 12 hours a day, and her friend gives him a ton of errands to run as well. She says that many guys in her country do this for their wives. She wants to mold me in this way, and so far I've been fairly cooperative only because I'm the type that wants to keep pushing his limits. I wanted to see how much pressure I could take and see if I could overcome it, and then see where I stood. I think I've been fairly successful but I also think I'm getting closer to that point where I want some equality.

What do you think about this Trenton? I don't want to exist to be my wife's workhorse. Who in their right mind wants to be the one to bring home the bread, take care of household responsibilities, take care of all their wife's emotions (when she's upset, I do try and comfort her), be willing to take on errands, be willing to take a bunch of s from his wife (she definitely lets slip her fair share of "I think I made a mistake marrying you", saying "i'm so so unlucky" when I said I don't think I could be like her country's men (which...are you sure that's really that common?), and mold his life around hers (ie the OCD clean; our apartment is SPOTLESS; also I don't take showers before her because she gets upset about the moisture. But get this, she takes them late which causes me to take them late although I have to get up early the next morning for classes. Obviously, I can't tell her to mind the time otherwise she gets upset cuz she feels like I'm pressuring her. 

What more can I do? Just magically love her? I concede that in most situations, the love should come first and that it's my fault for making this decision (ie, I thought love could be built together; I still do think that way although the former is a lot easier). But, this is the given situation and the best I can do is to manufacture a loving and caring environment (as opposed to willingly and genuinely be loving and caring). 

You have to remember, I am doing all these things even though I feel so unnerved around her and she's still walking around depressed and with a scowl. Yes I understand her situation sucks and yes I do realize it's not active fighting, but IT SUCKS to be around someone who's always got something to be depressed/upset about. It wears on you when your partner is upset one moment and obviously acting out, and the next moment she is in the shower crying. It wears on you when your partner says life is so hard and that she wants to kill herself. This is the same partner that acts out violently and tells you she wants to kill you or that you're a terrible person. 

I wish I could just wake up to a smiling face and a gentle caress. (and yes, I do realize I can make that choice...someday...for now I'm trying to work things out). 



Trenton said:


> Her extreme behavior comes during extreme changes. Even if BPD is more prevalent than we assume among the general population, it can also be used as a scapegoat. Convincing a very miserable, vulnerable yet intelligent and capable woman that she is BPD when she's with a man that doesn't love her, seems like a stretch to me.
> 
> I do think he should leave her but only because he never loved her in the first place. I think she will be better off without him in this case and he better off without her.


Btw, just to be clear, I'll never tell her I suspect she has BPD. As uptown and others have said, this is a very bad idea and could only make the situation worse. I erase any traces of this forum and any of the research I do related to bpd.

I think it's very clear that we would be better off without each other at this moment. However, I don't think that precludes the possibility that we could change and actually be happy together. 

Anyway, thank you again Trenton for your insight. It has been very helpful in a different way.


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sanity said:


> Why is it that we expect our children to behave their age but when it comes to our spouses a childish rage/temper tantrum is grounds for counseling?
> 
> When my three year old son throws himself into a rage because I didn't buy him another lollipop after he's had one 5 minutes ago I tend to grin and bear it because, well that's what kids do. When my son turns 10 and he's throwing the same tantrum that's a big problem. If he's 35, married with kids and constantly throws a hissy fits because of the same lollipop then I expect his wife to divorce his childish ass.
> 
> ...


OH MAN do I agree with you. I actually think that that could actually work in the long run because you're not passing these genetic traits down. I've definitely put kids on hold even though her biological clock is ticking exactly for the reasons you state. Maybe I can survive this misery for a few years, but I am so afraid of bringing an individual into this world who has this genetic disadvantage. 

My goal is to figure out what I'm dealing with to a great extent. My fear is divorcing her thinking she is a complete nut job, when in fact her behavior was 70-80% environment driven (although this seems unlikely)



Sanity said:


> Just today she asked me if I had plans this Friday so she could eat dinner with her mom and I could watch our son. Normally this would be a no brainer and I would say yes even though technically its not my day to keep him but I take advantage of when I can. When I said a few co workers of mine wanted to take me out to get a beer and a cigar as a belated birthday present she blew a gasket and starting dropping F bombs in front of our son. Seriously? Do you honestly believe you can counsel this?


Man do I feel for you. This is the sort of thing that I think people who aren't married to these kinds of people really understand. Even more so, they don't understand what it's like to continually live through these sorts of experience. It's not just one isolated incident.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

jnyu44 said:


> OH MAN do I agree with you. I actually think that that could actually work in the long run because you're not passing these genetic traits down. I've definitely put kids on hold even though her biological clock is ticking exactly for the reasons you state. Maybe I can survive this misery for a few years, but I am so afraid of bringing an individual into this world who has this genetic disadvantage.
> 
> My goal is to figure out what I'm dealing with to a great extent. My fear is divorcing her thinking she is a complete nut job, when in fact her behavior was 70-80% environment driven (although this seems unlikely)
> 
> ...



Nature, nurture, it really doesn't matter. She needs to realize that she is causing major problems in the marriage with her attitude. And if she is so unhappy with her life and hates being with so so much then she should leave the marriage and not put you through hell.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> My fear is divorcing her thinking she is a complete nut job, when in fact her behavior was 70-80% environment driven (although this seems unlikely)


With regard to her problems being "environment driven," I just don't see what gawd-awful event has happened to justify an outpouring of hate, pouting, rage, and complaining for the past six months. My nephew is now having to come up with $70,000 to help pay for heart surgery for his 12 year old daughter. Fourteen years ago, I had to undergo 8 months of surgeries, radiation, and chemo to treat cancer. Those are very common real-world problems here in the developed countries -- and they pale next to the terrible conditions that people suffer in the less developed countries. 

In contrast, your affluent wife's move to a quiet college town in a wealthy country simply does not constitute a crisis of any sort. Does it require some adjustments? Of course. But we are not talking about a crisis of any sort. What is she going to do when the real problems come along?

With regard to the "complete nut job" comment, I'm sure you don't really mean that. Even if she has full-blown BPD, there is nothing "crazy" or "nut job" about it. BPDers see physical reality just fine.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Uptown said:


> With regard to her problems being "environment driven," I just don't see what gawd-awful event has happened to justify an outpouring of hate, pouting, rage, and complaining for the past six months. My nephew is now having to come up with $70,000 to help pay for heart surgery for his 12 year old daughter. Fourteen years ago, I had to undergo 8 months of surgeries, radiation, and chemo to treat cancer. Those are very common real-world problems here in the developed countries -- and they pale next to the terrible conditions that people suffer in the less developed countries.
> 
> In contrast, your affluent wife's move to a quiet college town in a wealthy country simply does not constitute a crisis of any sort. Does it require some adjustments? Of course. But we are not talking about a crisis of any sort. What is she going to do when the real problems come along?
> 
> With regard to the "complete nut job" comment, I'm sure you don't really mean that. Even if she has full-blown BPD, there is nothing "crazy" or "nut job" about it. BPDers see physical reality just fine.


As always Uptown you make sense. I have learned so much from his experiences. 

My exw was constantly complaining. She (SAHM) would complain and throw tantrums about taking care of our son "all day"even though I would come home from work and take over after a long day at work. I would do this gladly just to help her get some rest and have the evening to herself. I would do this 3-4 times a week without complaining. I remember taking a shower when our son was asleep and jumping in bed for some "adult time" and being shot down because she was tired. Really? On top of that she would have EVERY Saturday for two years to sleep in until 11:00 AM or longer and still complain later that she was tired. Did I also mentioned she didn't work? 

I remember one day discussing a second source of income due to her constant complaining of lack of vacations and money. I was offered a part time job that would be an extra $500 a month to our family and her first words where "Oh great, I guess I'm screwed taking care of this kid".


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I disagree that a move to another country and new, unhappy marriage are not stressful events that could cause adjustment and differentiating behavior.


I certainly agree with you, Trenton, that the event "could cause" such behavior. Anything is possible. Indeed, in my initial post (#4 above), I acknowledge that the W's anger or stress might explain the behavior.

That said, I believe it is very unlikely that an emotionally stable woman would -- over the past six months -- be claiming she wants to kill herself if she only had the courage, be physically violent, tell her H that she sometimes imagines stabbing him with a knife, talk about her traumatic childhood, show a strong fear of abandonment, and go on repeated spending binges -- just because she was uprooted from her culture and relocated to a quiet college town in a wealthy country. 

This is why I expressed doubt, in my last post, that any of the events described by JNYU "can justify an outpouring of hate, pouting, rage...." -- not to mention the suicide threats, the talk about stabbing him with a knife, and the abandonment fear. All those behaviors are easy to explain, however, if she has strong BPD traits. Hence, while conceding that you may be right, Trenton, I am simply saying that I doubt it.


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