# Anyone who is or was in abusive relationship should read



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

"why does he do that?"
It's been four years since I got away from my ex and I'm still seeing the extent of his cruelty. This book just validated so much for me: that they choose this behavior because they believe they are entitled to act this way because you belong to them. All the crap about an anger problem, drugs, losing control, intimacy issues is debunked in this book written by a man with 15 years of experience rehabbing abusive men. 
Also goes into why traditional counseling, both individual and marriage makes an abuser worse. It helped me realize why our MC was such a horrible experience. 
Also could see that so much of what he has done post filing is textbook: telling me I've been abused so much by my father I see everything as abuse, we abused each other, I have an anger issue, I was the one with the problem. How he pitted all our friends against me and started seeing and sleeping with my matron of honor. How he has used our child to get to me, how he uses money to get to me, how he saw me as a servant and expected his life to continue as normal when we had our daughter. 
It is helping me heal and become stronger even though it's stil hard to believe after four years I'm still healing!
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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

I keep forgetting about that book and will remember to suggest it here to women who are abused.

Thanks for the reminder.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Is there one like that for guys? God I need that book.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Couple counseling with an abuser rarely works. Abusers are adept at manipulating the counselor and use things discussed during therapy to abuse further.

Healing from an abusive relationship can take years, OP. I'm also 4 years out of an abusive relationship, and still battling to heal (PTSD). The damage my ex abuser wrought in my life was huge and life changing...

I'm going to get my paws on that book.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I would imagine that the beliefs are the same with a female abuser. In fact one of the huge things that helped me to leave him was a talk I had with my ex's sister's husband. He told me that she did the exact same things that my ex did at the time. And he said "I think it's because they weren't raised in the church." which on the surface sounds closed minded. Obviously not everyone who is raised without religion is going to abuse. 
But it made me realize that yes they were indeed raised with no morals about how to treat anyone. They saw their parents abusing each other. And I know it's rare that both are abusive. I think in the early days their dad was very abusive to her but at some point he turned around somewhat and felt guilty and she set out to pay him back for what he had done for her through severe emotional and mental manipulation. 
I didn't find out the extent of their abuse until during second separation when he was trying to get me back by saying it made him the way he is and trying to get me to feel sorry for him. 
The fact that his sister did the EXACT same things was such an eye opener. It somehow made me realize he was never going to change.
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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I still expect my current h to act like my ex. If he does anything at all that reminds me of him or it seems like he is pulling away I have an irrational reaction to it. He has been on antidepressants for headaches and is libido has disappeared. So my reaction is "he's cheating, he's gay, he doesn't love me, he's mad at me and won't tell me, he is trying to control me, he is punishing me for something." We're in MC with a sex therapist because I get so anxious, afraid, scared and mad about it.
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My DD21 dated an abusive boy in the summer before her junior year of high school. Within ONE month, this high-spirited, fun-filled girl was in tears, begging him to forgive her, etc. etc. etc. I happened to hear that conversation and I put a stop to it immediately. She welcomed the help. And then went on to research dating abuse, using the Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men (spelled out for other readers), as well as many other books; I read them with her. She did a project on it, and then asked the principal if she could put on a schoolwide presentation of it; they allowed, but only for the girls. I can only hope that she helped at least a few girls not go down that path.

That kid? She told him that he was abusive and needed help. After a torturous few years, where she helped him here and there with working on his issues, he finally came to her and thanked her for helping him see why and how he was sabotaging his own life. Maybe if you reach them young enough, you can make a difference. But if you marry an adult person like that, odds are VERY stacked against him or her ever changing. And the only way they WILL change is if you remove yourself from their presence.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> I still expect my current h to act like my ex. If he does anything at all that reminds me of him or it seems like he is pulling away I have an irrational reaction to it. He has been on antidepressants for headaches and is libido has disappeared. So my reaction is "he's cheating, he's gay, he doesn't love me, he's mad at me and won't tell me, he is trying to control me, he is punishing me for something." We're in MC with a sex therapist because I get so anxious, afraid, scared and mad about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 diwali, MC isn't going to help you with your low self esteem, which is what you're describing. Only individual therapy can do that.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm in IC. But honestly I don't think it's low SE. I think it's that my ex took our marriage apart piece by piece and I'm just waiting for that to happen with him. It's a fear of the same thing happening again. A woman's self esteem has nothing to do with what an abuser believes. And I guess that makes it harder because I feel like I didn't do anything to deserve what my ex did, and it was out of my control. So now any little thing makes me think we are heading down the same road.
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you had high self esteem, you would LAUGH at the thought of your current H doing it to you. Because you'd know that you are a great catch and he's lucky to have you and if he DID do such a thing, you'd be gone in a heartbeat. THAT is how a person with high self esteem talks and thinks. I'm not trying to be rude, but everything you post pretty much shouts I don't like myself.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

So my ex was abusive because I had low self esteem? 
I'm not saying its a rational logical part of my brain, it's just feelings that it brings up. 
Do you think people who are cheated on and are afraid of it happening again have low self esteem too? People who are in car accidents and are afraid of driving have low self esteem? I guess I don't get the logic there. You can think you are the most awesome catch in the world but it doesn't stop people from cheating, abusing, etc. have you read the boards here? 
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> So my ex was abusive because I had low self esteem?


NO! But if you had high self esteem, you would never have put up with his crap in the first place. 

I think ALL of us have some low self esteem. It's human nature. That's why the boards are full of doormats and abuse victims. There are the Givers (people who think they have to give to get someone to love them), and there are the Takers (people who WANT to use and abuse other people). And then there are the people who know who they are, are ok in their own skin, and suffer no fools. It's the last ones who walk away when their boundaries are crossed; heck, who even know what their boundaries ARE. The rest of us are too messed up to even understand them.

Until we get help, of course. 

fwiw, people who are cheated on suffer a MASSIVE MASSIVE plunge in self esteem. It's pretty much unavoidable. So, yes, those who are cheated on and are afraid of it happening again do have low self esteem. Then, there are those who have been cheated on but who love themselves enough to say screw you! and kick the cheater out and get on with their lives. They enter any future relationships with eyes wide open, willing to love again, but also willing to walk away the instant they get proof of cheating.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think that's really a popular notion in this culture and it's more "blame the victim" thinking. My ex didn't start out abusive, hardly any of them do. The truly manipulative ones (I've had three counselors tell me he sounds like a sociopath) are do skilled at pretending that even the smartest most self aware people fall for their charade. 
It was over time that he escalated and of course every time I was ready to say it was enough he would be back to choosing to behave himself and treat me the right way. I was even in counseling before we got married and she said that he sounded like a great guy. Seven years later I went back to her and she couldn't believe how emotionally cruel and abusive he was. 
The thing is, I could sit here and say he has BPD, he is a sociopath, he was raised by wolves, he has brain damage from an incident with his thyroid. But the truth I think is he decided to behave this way. 
It's really easy to blame the victim because that's what this culture does. And we would like to believe we can do this and that and be absolutely sure no one will ever deceive us but it's a false sense of security. So now I need to come to a middle ground of knowing I can't control the future and trying not to let little things trigger post trauma reactions.
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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Turnera you're rocking my world today. Very inspirational, thanks man.

I read what you wrote and thought, "When did I stop believing that about myself? I'm a f*cking catch!"

Smiling right now...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> I think that's really a popular notion in this culture and it's more "blame the victim" thinking.


I'm sorry if you think I'm blaming you. Nothing of the sort.

I'm saying that if you find yourself married to an abuser, only YOU can fix the situation, because the abuser sure as hell isn't going to.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

That's why I left him.  
And now I'm with a wonderful man, we got married and have a house together but I'm finding that I'm getting triggered by little things that remind me of the past kind of a "here we go again" feeling even though rationally I know it's not true. I think just being aware that my past is influencing me helps to make sense of it but it makes me mad that I can't just erase that bastard from my brain.
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> My ex didn't start out abusive, hardly any of them do. The truly manipulative ones (I've had three counselors tell me he sounds like a sociopath) are do skilled at pretending that even the smartest most self aware people fall for their charade.


Yes, I know all about it. Have been learning for a couple decades now. I call it the 'give in' disease - what we victims have. 

You would never give a guy a second date if he treated you like he does now, on your first date. Back THEN, you were sure of yourself. You hadn't been convinced you were crazy. You hadn't dealt with a million 'give ins.'

They start off small. "You're going to wear THAT?" So you wonder if you picked the wrong colors. And you go change.

"I don't think you did that correctly." So you let them redo what you did. (my H used to go back and RE-MOW the yard after I'd mow because mine wasn't good enough; I finally told him I was never going to mow again; that solved that.)

"Your sister's a *****. I can't believe you'd rather hang with her than with me." Thus starts the alienation, the 'choosing' him over your support system, so you have no one to sound off of to see if he's really hurting you or if you're just too senstive, like he likes to tell you.

You give in on the clothes cos you think it's no big deal. You give in on going to see your mom cos you think he's feeling bad so you'd better stay home. You give in on standing your ground for the color YOU want to paint the kitchen because...well, it's frankly easier to just let him have it the way he wants it. At least this way, you don't have to deal with him pouting for 3 hours.

Eventually, all the 'give ins' BECOME who you are. And even after you leave them, it will take you years to find the old person back. To regain that self esteem. That's why I said you need to work on your self esteem. It won't just come back on its own, now that it's been trampled so long. He has made you doubt yourself, your abilities, your truth, over many years. It won't return just because you decide you're done with him. Lord knows it's going to take me decades, if I even have that long left to live.

But it's worth doing.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

turnera said:


> If you had high self esteem, you would LAUGH at the thought of your current H doing it to you. Because you'd know that you are a great catch and he's lucky to have you and if he DID do such a thing, you'd be gone in a heartbeat. THAT is how a person with high self esteem talks and thinks. I'm not trying to be rude, but everything you post pretty much shouts I don't like myself.


I used to think exactly the same as this - until I found myself in an abusive relationship. The abuse doesn't start overnight, however, and we're often caught up in in the madness of it long before we realise it. 

Despite my healthy self-esteem, a lot of serious damage was done to me and my life before I managed to escape.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think for the most part my self esteem is good, usually. I have overcome all his stupid beliefs about me and proven him wrong on everything. I think that part of the reason our relationship got so bad was because of my self esteem, I kept getting stronger and less willing to put up with his BS. And now I'm seeing that after a few years of me vainly trying to get him to seek help, to work it out, putting up boundary after boundary to the point where he knew I wasn't buying his crap anymore but I was still waiting for him to change, he pretended to change. He deserves an Oscar for that. It's actually remarkable.
Then I agreed to have a child with him and he agreed on how we would split parenting, that he would be an involved father. Three weeks before the due date he informed me that he didn't have to help me. And he didn't. Now I see he planned the whole thing as a way to punish me for figuring him out and to try to tie me to him and make me dependent on him. 
I told him all I needed from him anymore was his money and I could get that whether we were married or not. 
Now I'm working on not needing his money at all, just keeping it in case or using it for extra stuff for my daughter. Slowly but surely I'm getting there.
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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I think that part of the reason our relationship got so bad was because of my self esteem, I kept getting stronger and less willing to put up with his BS. And now I'm seeing that after a few years of me vainly trying to get him to seek help, to work it out, putting up boundary after boundary to the point where he knew I wasn't buying his crap anymore but I was still waiting for him to change, he pretended to change. He deserves an Oscar for that. It's actually remarkable.
> [/i][/size]


An abuser's main objective is to eradicate its victim's self-esteem in order to control it. I remember mine saying: "How the hell did you get to be so confident? What does it take to _break _you?"

Boundaries don't work with abusers, either. The only thing that does work is to leave them.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think for a while I was hoping he would change and he was hoping I would change to put up with his crap. He thought raising a baby on my own would break me. Oddly it just made me more determined to get away from him. We both kept upping the ante with me ignoring him, not sleeping in the same room, refusing to argue, leaving the room or the house, and him destroying things, trying to keep me from leaving, threatening suicide. 
I finally kicked him out when she was two. I really believed in marriage and I wanted to do all I could so I wouldn't feel like I has broken up our family for nothing. 
He told me I would live with my mom forever, never have a real job again and be alone. 
Funny thing is, I make more than ever, had the same job 3 years, have two vehicles, bought a house with just my credit and income, have two credit cards, and my daughter is in a great school. 
He has no bank account, two judgements on his credit for nonpayment of support, uses his gf's checking account, lives in her house and drives her car. He's had three jobs in three years. He is with the first woman he literally ran into post separation. 
Sometimes it just makes me feel good to see what a loser he has become, he looks terrible, old, fat, unkempt, etc. But this affects my daughter. In a while she is going to start being embarrassed by his crazy looks when he comes to school functions. 
She already told me that he's not a good person because he leaves her by herself in the car while he pays for gas. 
How is it this waste of humanity is the father of one of the most wonderful children ever?
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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I *so* need to get ahold of this book!!! 
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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh god. I just remembered how when the Internet took off and I was online a lot he was always going on about how he didn't like it because I was going to fund another guy online and he didn't know any of my friends and I was just incapable of making "[email protected] friends. Thing is I never backed down. I just told him he was wrong but listening to that **** wasn't easy. He just didn't want me to have support that he didn't know about. Ironically shortly after filing he ended up with one of my supposed real life friends.
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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Yin: yes you do! I found used copies on amazon for five bucks. I thought about sending one to his current girlfriend. But I won't.
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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Hmm I wonder if hub would loan me $5 lol! :lol:
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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Btw, Diwali - I used to think I was having PTSDish type triggers with my husband too. Now wondering if it was really me or him... Or if it even matters... 
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> I told him all I needed from him anymore was his money and I could get that whether we were married or not.


Hah! Love it! I'll have to remember that one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yin, you can get that book at probably every library, for free. 

And look for Patricia Evans' books, too.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I ended up getting two years spousal support and he and his lawyer stupidly didn't put in that it should end if I lived with a man so I got all of it even when living with my current h before marriage. I got more than the state minimum of child support and it's through her 23rd bday or her bachelor's degree, whichever comes first. I saved every email between us and was able to show that he let our house get foreclosed on and lost 8k in equity. I had emails from him telling me he didn't want to deal with the house because it wasn't a priority for him. 
I got a hearing to see if he needed a psych eval but the judge said that since he had never been an inpatient it wasn't necessary. 
At the last hearing our lawyers said we just needed to go into a room
and work out the last details. In the room he kept talking over our lawyers. When we started deciding when he would begin paying spousal support he got more upset. I pointed out his next payday and he stood up like he was going to try to threaten my lawyer and I.
His lawyer had to take him out of the room and make him sit on a bench down the hall while conveyed messages back and forth. I could tell his lawyer was VERY surprised. He probably thought that I was the problem but once he lost his cool his true colors were shown. 
His lawyer also acted like he couldn't believe I was his stbx the first time we met. I'm pretty attractive, wear nice clothes, my hair is stylish, etc. his eyes got so big like he just couldn't believe I was the wretch he had been describing.
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's great revenge.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

He stopped paying last year and I had to contact state legislators but finally got them to put judgements on his credit report, take his tax return, and put a hold on his ability to get a passport.
Oh by the way he always talked about going on vacations but we never did. In 2010 I took my daughter to Toronto and last year went to cancun while he stays in his boring stupid life telling me he is going to take her to Spain to visit a friend someday. Yeah right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> I still expect my current h to act like my ex. If he does anything at all that reminds me of him or it seems like he is pulling away I have an irrational reaction to it. He has been on antidepressants for headaches and is libido has disappeared. So my reaction is "he's cheating, he's gay, he doesn't love me, he's mad at me and won't tell me, he is trying to control me, he is punishing me for something." We're in MC with a sex therapist because I get so anxious, afraid, scared and mad about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





turnera said:


> diwali, MC isn't going to help you with your low self esteem, which is what you're describing. Only individual therapy can do that.


She didn't describe low self esteem. She described Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. It's a common problem and almost always a resulting product of abuse.



turnera said:


> If you had high self esteem, you would LAUGH at the thought of your current H doing it to you. Because you'd know that you are a great catch and he's lucky to have you and if he DID do such a thing, you'd be gone in a heartbeat. THAT is how a person with high self esteem talks and thinks. I'm not trying to be rude, but everything you post pretty much shouts I don't like myself.





turnera said:


> NO! But if you had high self esteem, you would never have put up with his crap in the first place..........And then there are the people who know who they are, are ok in their own skin, and suffer no fools. It's the last ones who walk away when their boundaries are crossed; heck, who even know what their boundaries ARE.


That's what I thought, too. For a very long time I thought that because I am the person you described - high self esteem and entirely intolerant of abuse. I had to stop thinking so little of other women though, and there are a lot of reasons I reconsidered my stance.

First, my situation was rather unique, in that he wasn't a guy I met and fell in love with, meaning I didn't get pulled in by the usual act and facade abusers present when meeting and dating. I knew the guy literally all my life because our families were very close. He was 14 years older than me, but I was (I thought) special to him (out of all my sisters) because he always made me feel special. He paid more attention to me, spoiled me, and granted my every wish. My parents loved him like a son. My sisters and I loved him like a brother. He and his brother felt similarly toward us, but I was special to him and I knew it. We were closer than all the others, but there was never anything romantic in the slightest. After nearly 30 years of knowing this guy, I thought I knew him. We all thought we knew him.......until I moved in with him a few months after we got together. Our romantic relationship was going really well up until moving in. That's when the s*it hit the fan.

I spent those (nearly) three months of living with him in a complete mindspin trying to figure out what happened - trying to make sense of his "logical" assertions and assessments; trying to determine in exactly what ways I was suddenly so different than I'd always been; suddenly so incapable of managing even the most mundane of tasks; suddenly undeserving of his time, attention, or kindness; suddenly unqualified to enter into a discussion; suddenly lacking the presence of mind to think or the mental power to form my own opinions. I couldn't even ask a question because his response would be, "You asked the wrong question."

Being the person you described as possessive of high self esteem, I never imagined I would find myself in that kind of situation. I couldn't believe what was happening to me, didn't understand what was going on, and didn't like it one bit. I wasn't able to describe the incidents because it wasn't possible to explain to someone else if I, myself, did not understand them. Therefore, any attempt to talk with someone failed miserably. I'd shrink inside with the realization that there was no way to make anyone see how I felt. I only knew, with every incident, not one bit of it made any kind of sense, yet there wasn't anything to compare it to. My parent's relationship was volatile and often enough explosive, so that physical abuse and verbal abuse I was familiar with didn't help me define what was happening in MY relationship. I spent so much time completely confused.....so confused that I couldn't even form the question in my mind "Why is he doing this to me?" because as far I could tell, he wasn't doing anything to me.

But, being the person you described as possessive of high self esteem, I finally stopped wondering what was going on. I finally stopped wondering WHY it was happening. I finally stopped trying to figure him out or make sense of any of it. I realized there were no answers and there was nothing to understand. And even if there were, they didn't matter anyway. I didn't like it, and that was all that mattered. How he made me feel was all that mattered. How I felt about the whole situation was all that mattered, so I left. I have always been entirely intolerant of anyone thinking they could mistreat me, and that was all that mattered.

Although I spent less than three months in an abusive relationship, I realize a lot of abused women spend years in that same state of confusion. It is waaayyy more diabolical and insidious than physical abuse. At least THAT is clearly defined. A woman may not understand his illogical reasons and might wonder how she caused his fury, but she can surely state without hesitation or perplexity that he hit her. That much is clear with physical abuse. All that surrounds physical abuse and what women experience when the abuse is not physical are not so clearly defined. They are just confusing, demeaning, hurtful, and permeable.

Moreover, there are background factors I cannot begin to try to enumerate (my parents for example), as this novel I am writing cannot further bear it. I will insert here though that on top of each woman's own upbringing, society gives women an unrealistic view of love and what to expect of and from love, as well as skews women's perception of themselves and their own value. For example, I was teased in elementary school because I was pretty. Were I not so confident in myself, I could have easily believed being pretty was the awful thing they tried to make it out to be. Then, in adulthood, society's standard of beauty is almost unachievable, like it isn't possible to be pretty enough. Nothing, for that matter, is ever enough where women are concerned.

The number of abusive relationships is astounding. Statistics state that 1 in every 4 relationships is abusive, but that is a dismal representation because the estimates are based on the reported number of physical incidents. The rest, which are much more often (verbal, emotional, psychological battering occur at much greater frequency [such as daily, weekly, several times a day, or several times per day per week] than physical battering per abusive relationship) are not known, recognized, or factored. Because there are so very, very many women in so many different kinds of abusive relationships, it is unkind, inaccurate, and thoughtless to say every single one has "low self esteem." There have to be more reasons than that because "low self esteem" and "you don't like yourself" simply do not apply to every one of them. Those assessments do not apply to me. They never did and never will. 

Your *textbook* examples don't make women feel better nor make them think you know how they feel when you apply those kinds of judgments as if you know them or their circumstances. Judgmental opinions and inaccurate personal assessments like those are discouraged by experts and professionals because they are not helpful. It is not helpful to perpetuate the demeaning nature of their daily experience. It is not helpful to make them feel worse about themselves than their abuser already does by echoing the types of things he says. 

What formerly and currently abused women need are understanding, encouragement, guidance, education, and support/assistance to escape their hell.



diwali123 said:


> I think for the most part my self esteem is good, usually. I have overcome all his stupid beliefs about me and proven him wrong on everything. I think that part of the reason our relationship got so bad was because of my self esteem, I kept getting stronger and less willing to put up with his BS. And now I'm seeing that after a few years of me vainly trying to get him to seek help, to work it out, putting up boundary after boundary to the point where he knew I wasn't buying his crap anymore but I was still waiting for him to change, he pretended to change. He deserves an Oscar for that. It's actually remarkable.
> Then I agreed to have a child with him and he agreed on how we would split parenting, that he would be an involved father. Three weeks before the due date he informed me that he didn't have to help me. And he didn't. Now I see he planned the whole thing as a way to punish me for figuring him out and to try to tie me to him and make me dependent on him.
> I told him all I needed from him anymore was his money and I could get that whether we were married or not.
> Now I'm working on not needing his money at all, just keeping it in case or using it for extra stuff for my daughter. Slowly but surely I'm getting there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please, Diwali, don't allow anyone to make you feel you have to explain or defend yourself against their pre-supposed, uneducated, and inexperienced opinions. You LEFT, and that is more than enough to be proud of. I always say I don't understand why women stay and put up with it for years. But, I know I don't have to understand it. I accept it because I realize not everyone is like me and all situations are unique. Because I accept it is a fact, I try to help in hopes that I CAN help. I won't, however, judge anyone and don't think others should either. 

Bravo! to you for leaving. The rest, although highly commendable as well, is history. And that's the way you should feel - proud of yourself for leaving AND succeeding. They are mutually exclusive of exponential value.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

River1977 said:


> I spent those (nearly) three months of living with him in a complete mindspin trying to figure out what happened - trying to make sense of his "logical" assertions and assessments; *trying to determine in exactly what ways I was suddenly so different* than I'd always been; suddenly so *incapable of managing even the most mundane of tasks*; suddenly *undeserving of his time, attention, or kindness*; suddenly *unqualified to enter into a discussion*; suddenly *lacking the presence of mind to think or the mental power to form my own opinions*. I couldn't even ask a question because his response would be, "You asked the wrong question."


 Sorry, but I'm not convinced. I've been dealing with abused women for a decade now. I can't TELL you how many of them told me the exact same thing: I KNOW I love myself, I know I have high self esteem, I know it was just him, I know I was somehow tricked because the me I know I am would never accept that outright - I was tricked.

Do abusers manipulate? Absolutely. But they SEEK OUT women who they know will be susceptible. Believe me, HE KNEW you would cave. Abusers are much better readers of personalities than you or me.

I've met tons of women who just know they have no self esteem problems. Yet here they are, ripe pickings.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

You have never, ever spent even a day "dealing" with abused women. 

_I've been dealing with abused women for a decade now._

1. You would not use the words "dealing with." Since they are such a pathetic and hopeless bunch that you have to "deal with," you'd have a vocabulary of the appropriate lexicon to that field of work.

_Believe me, HE KNEW you would cave._

2. Rather than accuse me of the contrary, you would possess enough talent of reading comprehension to recognize that obviously I didn't cave. Less than three months to recognize there is a problem and to get out is hardly caving. Clearly, he didn't know I was not the one.

_Sorry, but I'm not convinced. I've been dealing with abused women for a decade now. I can't TELL you how many of them told me the exact same thing: I KNOW I love myself, I know I have high self esteem, I know it was just him, I know I was somehow tricked because the me I know I am would never accept that outright - I was tricked._

3. You would not continue demeaning and belittling abused women. You would have been taught better and since all you can do is plagiarise a few websites, you'd at least heed the request and advice of the site that is the authority on the subject to cease being judgmental, condenming, and debasing (and for that matter mimicking to ridicule) of abused women.

_I've met tons of women who just know they have no self esteem problems. Yet here they are, ripe pickings._

4. You would not insult and condemn all the abused women who came here to this board.

You are only fooling those who do not know any better than to fall for the grandiose image you are trying to project to qualify your claim of expertise. But, now they know better too.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Bravo River.
I don't know what that means, "dealing with"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Never mind.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> "why does he do that?"
> It's been four years since I got away from my ex and I'm still seeing the extent of his cruelty. This book just validated so much for me: that they choose this behavior because they believe they are entitled to act this way because you belong to them. All the crap about an anger problem, drugs, losing control, intimacy issues is debunked in this book written by a man with 15 years of experience rehabbing abusive men.
> Also goes into why traditional counseling, both individual and marriage makes an abuser worse. It helped me realize why our MC was such a horrible experience.
> Also could see that so much of what he has done post filing is textbook: telling me I've been abused so much by my father I see everything as abuse, we abused each other, I have an anger issue, I was the one with the problem. How he pitted all our friends against me and started seeing and sleeping with my matron of honor. How he has used our child to get to me, how he uses money to get to me, how he saw me as a servant and expected his life to continue as normal when we had our daughter.
> ...


I wrote a sequel called "Why can't he do that now?" It was too short to publish though. I reads as follows: "It takes two to Tango, and I left the dance floor."


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

It takes two to tango and I kicked him off the dance floor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Boundaries don't work with abusers, either. The only thing that does work is to leave them.


PREACH!!!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Abusers are "boundary-resistant." 
And I firmly believe they get worse over time.

Diwali, I read that book. It's amazing, isn't it? My ex was emotionally abusive. He never laid a hand on me but he didn't have to. His words and behavior towards me cut like a knife. It took a long time for me to see that this wasn't just a normal couple issue here and there. I slowly began to realize that this was part of his character. And girl, he swept me off my feet when I met him! So imagine my horror when he started to say offside things or be mean or just blank me totally. With time I realized that he did not care about my feelings. It was a sad realization. And a hard one to accept. Once it was made clear to me that my feelings did not count, it was time for me to leave. And I hung in there so long too--because to me marriage was a special thing and I loved him to pieces. But I didn't like him anymore. So I left. And I still deal with the fallout of this (the behavior, how I feel now) and I've not dated since him and I am afraid (useless emotion) to ever be in a relationship dynamic like that again. I am wary. I wonder why was I so drawn to someone who could end up being so cold? I don't like that. Oh and I am someone who never has had low self-esteem before. Ever. So this was another mindf*ck for me.

Diwali--with time, it does get better. I am glad you read that book and are seeking help for yourself and dealing with everything. Keep your eyes open. It's good you got away from him. They really do not change. Eventually he'll find a new chick to latch on to and treat her the same. Be glad you dodged that bullet.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> It takes two to tango and I kicked him off the dance floor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Zing! :smthumbup:


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

turnera said:


> Sorry, but I'm not convinced. I've been dealing with abused women for a decade now. I can't TELL you how many of them told me the exact same thing: I KNOW I love myself, I know I have high self esteem, I know it was just him, I know I was somehow tricked because the me I know I am would never accept that outright - I was tricked.
> 
> Do abusers manipulate? Absolutely. But they SEEK OUT women who they know will be susceptible. Believe me, HE KNEW you would cave. Abusers are much better readers of personalities than you or me.
> 
> I've met tons of women who just know they have no self esteem problems. Yet here they are, ripe pickings.


If you are qualified in supporting abused women, you surely realize that abusers are masters of the art of deception. If someone isn't accustomed to abusive relationships, the red flags simply aren't visible until it's too late. Abusers rarely show their true colours until they have their victims hooked, and by then it mightn't be that easy to escape.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> . If someone isn't accustomed to abusive relationships, the red flags simply aren't visible until it's too late. Abusers rarely show their true colours until they have their victims hooked, and by then it mightn't be that easy to escape.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Of course it's not easy to escape. We once helped a woman plan for 6 months to leave her man, got an apartment and everything...only to have her return to him within a week. 

Isn't that what I said? That they are smarter than we are at this stuff. They know what works to gaslight us; to get us to doubt ourselves; to feel that although we may think we love ourselves, we still crave their approval - or else we would leave much more easily.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> It takes two to tango and I kicked him off the dance floor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well yes, but honestly it is easier to have control over what you do, rather than what you can do to him. Leaving the relationship does do something to him, it demolishes the relationship in which he can operate. But it's accomplished in the mere act of taking care of oneself.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh he found someone else within three months. He claimed he loved me SO much and would never be the same, never love again. When we separated he moved in with his best friend and his wife. This couple was our best friends and he was our best man, she was matron of honor. 
Two months later husband leaves wife out of the blue for a younger woman. A month later my ex and the wife were sleeping together and they have been together for four years. 
Jellybeans: I know it is scary to try again. I didn't have any fear over getting remarried until after the honeymoon. It's been a really hard year for both of us, in terms of work stress, illness, kid problems, stress. It's unfortunate so many things had to happen in our first year of marriage but I hope it makes us stronger.
I was just reading a book about marriage, about how it helps you to grow in a lot of ways. I remembers what I thought marriage would be like before my first wedding: that we would respect each other, grow together and help each other develop. 
Instead I ended up with someone who used his moods and tantrums to keep me in my place, to distract and confuse me anytime I did anything that would be for my growth and well being. I have forgotten what marriage is supposed to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

One of the things I would tell IC was that I was so envious of most other families, because they seem so...well adjusted, and I just couldn't imagine what it would be like to be in one of those, where you're actually happy to be getting off work to see your spouse.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

turnera said:


> Of course it's not easy to escape. We once helped a woman plan for 6 months to leave her man, got an apartment and everything...only to have her return to him within a week.
> 
> Isn't that what I said? That they are smarter than we are at this stuff. They know what works to gaslight us; to get us to doubt ourselves; to feel that although we may think we love ourselves, we still crave their approval - or else we would leave much more easily.


It is a well known fact that many victims return to their abusers, but there is much more to it than not loving themselves and seeking the abuser's approval...

A victim who has ended up isolated from family and friends can find themselves penniless without any support systems whatsoever, and this can present them with huge practical problems as well as emotional ones.

Whilst leaving is most certainly a vital step every victim needs to take in bringing an end to abuse, actually doing it can be fraught with obstacles that only someone who has been in that sort of situation can imagine.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> "why does he do that?"
> It's been four years since I got away from my ex and I'm still seeing the extent of his cruelty. This book just validated so much for me: that they choose this behavior because they believe they are entitled to act this way because you belong to them. All the crap about an anger problem, drugs, losing control, intimacy issues is debunked in this book written by a man with 15 years of experience rehabbing abusive men.
> Also goes into why traditional counseling, both individual and marriage makes an abuser worse. It helped me realize why our MC was such a horrible experience.
> Also could see that so much of what he has done post filing is textbook: telling me I've been abused so much by my father I see everything as abuse, we abused each other, I have an anger issue, I was the one with the problem. How he pitted all our friends against me and started seeing and sleeping with my matron of honor. How he has used our child to get to me, how he uses money to get to me, how he saw me as a servant and expected his life to continue as normal when we had our daughter.
> ...


Yep, that's my ex...except the sleeping with my matron of honor, that's really cruel. My ex just seemed to look at every attractive woman out there, and it never bothered me, but now I realize it was innaprioprate and disrespectful.

What's crazy is that they don't stop once the marriage is over and they have a woman in their life. They keep wanting to control their ex.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> I would imagine that the beliefs are the same with a female abuser. In fact one of the huge things that helped me to leave him was a talk I had with my ex's sister's husband. He told me that she did the exact same things that my ex did at the time. And he said "I think it's because they weren't raised in the church." which on the surface sounds closed minded. Obviously not everyone who is raised without religion is going to abuse.
> But it made me realize that yes they were indeed raised with no morals about how to treat anyone. They saw their parents abusing each other. And I know it's rare that both are abusive. I think in the early days their dad was very abusive to her but at some point he turned around somewhat and felt guilty and she set out to pay him back for what he had done for her through severe emotional and mental manipulation.
> I didn't find out the extent of their abuse until during second separation when he was trying to get me back by saying it made him the way he is and trying to get me to feel sorry for him.
> The fact that his sister did the EXACT same things was such an eye opener. It somehow made me realize he was never going to change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From what I have read, they have usually been abused as a child. My ex used to tell people a story about when he was 4 and another kid was picking on him, it was winter, and his dad told him not to come into the house until he hit the kid. So here he is outside in the snow forced to hit a kid.

There's also the aspect that they were never taught to take any responsibilty for their actions. My ex mother in law protected my ex in every aspect, I couldn't believe it sometimes.

I think they have morals, but they don't see how their beh. impacts others, they will never admit they are abusive, and they tend to blame others for their beh. anyway.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

turnera said:


> If you had high self esteem, you would LAUGH at the thought of your current H doing it to you. Because you'd know that you are a great catch and he's lucky to have you and if he DID do such a thing, you'd be gone in a heartbeat. THAT is how a person with high self esteem talks and thinks. I'm not trying to be rude, but everything you post pretty much shouts I don't like myself.


I don't really agree that she would have low self esteem. You don't understand what it's like living with that type of person. They know where your insequrities are (everyone has them), and they play on them. For me, I became witty, and articulate over the years, and it became more difficult for him to manipulate me. He then upped it to lying to others about me, trying to make me look crazy and a mean person. It makes some women stronger in a lot of ways. But it takes a long time to get over all the crap, and the trust issues in future relationships is apparent.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> An abuser's main objective is to eradicate its victim's self-esteem in order to control it. I remember mine saying: "How the hell did you get to be so confident? What does it take to _break _you?"
> 
> Boundaries don't work with abusers, either. The only thing that does work is to leave them.


My ex used to say to me "you were nothing when I met you, and you're still nothing"....and yeah, you can't put limits on these people, even when you leave them it's really draining.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> ...telling me I've been abused so much by my father I see everything as abuse...


I am not implying that you did this in any way.

But, it is important to note that this phenomenon does happen. Ladies that have been abused overcompensate, see everyone else as a potential abuser, or some such a la The World According to Garp.

I am sensitive because my ex did just that to me. Her thought process: conversations (necessary IMO) involving sex were to be avoided. When we had them, she became uncomfortable. Since the conversations revolved around my dissatisfaction, her discomfort was my fault. Because I caused her discomfort, I was an abuser.

Just a note for those of us who's spouses try to gaslight us in this manner.


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## in my tree (Jun 9, 2012)

I should pick this up. The more I talk to my family and friends about why my marriage is ending, the more I realize how abusive it was (verbally, mentally). It's like talking it through brings more to light. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> Instead I ended up with *someone who used his moods and tantrums to keep me in my place, to distract and confuse me anytime I did anything that would be for my growth and well being.*


This was my ex to a TEE. His tantrums getting more frequent was when I started to see the cracks. It was awful.

One evening I was doing laundry and he got upset because of this and took a remote control and chucked it across the room, spilling a candle over and other things and walked away saying he didn't give a "fck" abou tthe wax on our carpet... he then got in his car and proceeded to DRIVE OVER OUR ENTIRE LAWN and speed over the curbside at rapid speed, chaotically.

Or another time he'd asked me to call someone for him and I did and he told me he didn't like the way I was pronouncing something and started YELLING at me at the top of his lungs about it and told me, "Do you want me to take you home?!" That was toward the end. I realized, I don't need to be living this 24/7. No way. And these things were becoming more frequent over time (in addition to him stonewalling me for days/weeks on end out of nowhere). 

I often wonder if he he has BPD but who knows. 

I had never in my life been in a relationship like this before so it was a total mindfvck for me. And to be honest with you, I am scared...scared to end up in this dynamic again. I don't ever want to repeat this dynamic again.

It's said: _The average victim leaves her/their abuser seven times before leaving for good._


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I had never in my life been in a relationship like this before so it was a total mindfvck for me. And to be honest with you, I am scared...scared to end up in this dynamic again. I don't ever want to repeat this dynamic again.
> 
> It's said: _The average victim leaves her/their abuser seven times before leaving for good._


I can understand your concerns. The plotting and planning that goes into getting out of an abusive relationship can feel like planning an escape from a prisoner of war camp. Even after I left, my ex tried to track me down for over 18 months. He sent a death threat to my son's office, registered me on several sex sites, advertised the length and breadth of England for my present whereabouts and contacted all my ex-employers with suicide threats.

Escaping from and surviving the effects of an abusive relationship shows enormous strength of character.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think I started packing and looking for my own place probably four times, he always turned on the charm and had revelations and was nice for a week, a month, a year. 
Until our baby was born and then he just plain turned to Satan. 
I still have nightmares that I'm with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I think that's really a popular notion in this culture and it's more "blame the victim" thinking. My ex didn't start out abusive, hardly any of them do. The truly manipulative ones (I've had three counselors tell me he sounds like a sociopath) are do skilled at pretending that even the smartest most self aware people fall for their charade.
> It was over time that he escalated and of course every time I was ready to say it was enough he would be back to choosing to behave himself and treat me the right way. I was even in counseling before we got married and she said that he sounded like a great guy. Seven years later I went back to her and she couldn't believe how emotionally cruel and abusive he was.
> The thing is, I could sit here and say he has BPD, he is a sociopath, he was raised by wolves, he has brain damage from an incident with his thyroid. But the truth I think is he decided to behave this way.
> It's really easy to blame the victim because that's what this culture does. And we would like to believe we can do this and that and be absolutely sure no one will ever deceive us but it's a false sense of security. So now I need to come to a middle ground of knowing I can't control the future and trying not to let little things trigger post trauma reactions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I COMPLETELY agree with you....I get what you are saying 100%


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

One thing people don't understand is that humans are meant to bond. We have deep needs for social
connection and love. Most abusers are capable of many moments of fun, love, and happiness. That is what is so confusing and makes it so hard to understand when you go through it. We are genetically wired for attachment. Historically our survival was dependent on other people and being part of a society. We don't have claws, big teeth, we can't squirt stinky poison or fade into the scenery. We survived because of our brains and passing along culture and knowledge about tools, hunting, plants, etc. being alone meant death. 
It is against our wiring to leave a loved one. In addition we sometimes are literally financially dependent, we fear for our kids being alone with them, we don't want to lose our home, our pets, our inlaws even. 
You get used to your role in a couple and being married or in a LTR. 
That is why it takes so long. Not because of low self esteem or necessarily fear although those two things can come into play.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

:iagree:

It was hard for me to leave my ex because he was my best friend. I have NEVER found someone I had so much in common with, or who accepted me so completely.

Unfortunately that changed when he changed. I'm still kind of mourning that. I literally had to leave when he began trying to kill me out of his psychosis. 

I spent a year living out of my car. It was the most horrible experience. :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm so sorry! I can't remember, are you in counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I was - but think counselor was not really all that interested in hearing about all of the things that made me ME. I'm okay - I trigger like mad somedays, others I'm fine. 

The first three years of our relationship were beyond awesome. The last two not even Hell could compare to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm not trying to doubt that but as someone who has been a ton of therapy I wonder if you couldn't try someone else? Also sometimes we don't really know what a therapist is doing. Sometimes they are clueless but sometimes they are trying to challenge us or get us to focus on things we don't need to but don't want to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I tried for a different counselor. Mine seriously never asked about my childhood, my relationship history, etc. The day I met him he kind of put me on the spot by asking why I was there.

I figured I was there because I lacked confidence. So he focused on THAT from there on. I gave up trying to talk about other things I needed help with. Was not able to switch counselors due to some policy they had... So I stopped going. It's a shame, too, because I think a lot of my anxiety and outbursts are due to my past.

Anyways, sorry to hijack your thread... I'm really going to keep an eye out for that book... I love to read, especially about these kinds of dynamics. 

Thank you for your thoughts. :hug:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

You didn't hijack it at all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I get paranoid that I talk about myself too much... :lol: 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yin, have you tried googling for a therapist who specializes in abuse? Or typing in the name of your city, therapist, abuse, and reviews? You could find reviews that recommend someone.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Thanks for the ideas, Tunera! 

Actually you just gave me another one - getting ahold of my "victim's advocate" to see if she can set me up with some counseling, even though it's been years since I spoke to her last. 

At the time I'd spent so much time talking about my abuse to attorneys, judges, police and investigators that I didn't want to discuss it with yet more people... But I think I'm starting to see the effect it has had on my personality and my reactivity in situations. Of course, the ongoing verbal abuse in my marriage is not helping me in the least.

Thank you again. This has been a very interesting thread, which I've followed daily. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Yin, another avenue is your local Women's Centre. They will probably have a list of abuse therapists. Mine actually did pro bono work for the refuge (women's centre) I was in, and was absolutely brilliant.


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## help305 (Jul 3, 2012)

I have been faced with sexual harrasment at my previous job which my husband claims it was my fault. I didn't tell him when it occured that the man grasped my ass. My husband has anger problems. I am very pretty and this has happend to me at other stages in my life, being without him. Now he thinks twice about everything that I do and questions everything, It has come to the point that yelling and pointing out each thing I do wrong, is a daily routine. I have found myself saying sorry for everything that I do or not do. He [email protected]*chs about eveything as to calling him back, you said, I said, why this why that etc.... Now, he feels everything I say and do is a lie. I don't know if this is a sign of my 17 yr marraige ending, but the abuse just goes on and on he doesn't even want my sorry's anymore. I find myself thinking twice of each step that I may make or say. I don't have any friends for he is very controling and abusive. I find myself afraid of what to say to his questions because he reacts to everything by yelling. I have said to myself I would never accept my man to hit me and it has gotten to the point that he has hit me once and even harrased that he will kill himself. I hate myself for accepting this. for which he says he love me too much, and I'm the problem always lying. But even though I don't lie anymore and promised, he still thinks that I'm lying. We are the kind of relationship that are always in contact with each other you see me working and on the phone with him in lunch and on the phone with him, no time for friends or hobbies, he doesn't even let me breathe my own air somtimes. I don't know what I should do. Is this an abusive relationship or am I really the problem that doesn't do anything right and always find myself feeling guilty for everything. He says I always have and excuse and never take real responsibility for what I do, and end up doing it again. Now he wants to leave me and I somehow feel releif but sad for about to loose every effort that we have strive to keep things together.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

help, I hope you will start your own thread so people can give you the help you need.


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