# Am I wasting time trying to resolve this?



## Zman

Profile:
Male, age 54, Married 32 years, wife age 54 , 2 grown daughters, (1) 2 year old granddaughter. Always full time employed and supporting spouse. No history of chemical abuse, wife abuse, affairs, chronic sickness, depression or criminal behavior. Self starter and problem solver.

Situation: 
My wife and I jointly own a small business. She stays home and handles a fair amount of the bookkeeping which averages 3-4 hours per day. Some days she doesn’t have to work on business at all. In addition to that she takes care of most of the household cooking & cleaning. I also contribute to these chores but she does the lion share. She is currently baby sitting our grand daughter from 7PM to about 1pm the next day for 4-5 days a week. 

I am a blue collar worker that actively works and manages our business about 6 days per week. We are not rich but we have a decent home and my wife has a nice car. She can schedule appointments to the hair & nail salon during the day and has money to shop. She can take time off while I cover her responsibilities. I have always provided well enough for her to be a stay at home wife & mother. We both are in fairly good physical health, eat a healthy diet and regularly work out at a gym. 

Problem:
Over the last 10-15 years my wife has become less & less satisfied with her life. She just seems intensely irritated all the time like someone who is trying to quit smoking. I’m fairly sure that menopause is affecting her mental state. Her complaints range from “she has no friends” , “we never do anything but work”, “our house is falling down”, “we won’t be able to retire” - basically “ I’m just not happy”. I have seen her go from gym to gym to gym trying to find just the right one only to come back to the one I have stayed with all along. I have observed this same behavior in her over the years with people and churches. There is always something wrong with this person, gym or church so she goes to the next one never being able to stay for the long term because of some issue or another. By comparison, I’m fairly sure there are other decent hard working women that would gladly trade places with her. On a side note, I have in the past taken her to exotic places and spent money on home projects but it always leads to more and bigger unhappiness about some other unfulfilled issue. I know there is always something else to do but can’t we ever have some level of contentment? For example, this past week I handled everything on the homefront while she spent a week visiting relatives. I listened on the phone while she described all the dysfunctions of the family she was visiting. When she returned home everything had been handled. Housework done and everything in order & clean. I greeted her with the dogs and unloaded the car for her. All I got was a hard, cold peck on the cheek and *****ed at for not going thru her mail and getting rid of the junk. 

From what I can tell we are better off than most but she seems to always compare what we don’t have to those who are very well off. I talk regularly to other guys in my age group about my situation and there seems to be a common thread with the “I’m just not happy” theme.. Some of their wives have walked out. Mine has threatened to divorce. These are decent guys that have really tried hard to be faithful and do everything within their power to take care of their wives. About 3 years ago I caught her with hard evidence in an emotional affair, possibly / likely physical, but unable to prove. I blew it up and don’t think it has continued but sometimes kick myself for not ending my marriage at that time. We still had one daughter at home at the time so it was a difficult decision.

Years ago we did some marriage counselling but as soon as the councellor would start to shine the light on her, she would quit. One time we went as a couple for months. The counsellor finally called me in on my own to tell me that it would be a waste to go any further. He told me that while I was receptive and willing to put effort into working on my problems the only thing she could do was “*****” about me but was unwilling to address her issues. She continues to hold on to things I said or did over 25 years ago and have not repeated. He even told me that if most of the husbands he counselled would work at their marriage as well as I was doing their wives would be thrilled. My wife refuses to do any more marriage counselling. She has said to me in the past that I need to go on my own and get “fixed” because she is “normal”. 

For about 5-10 years now my wife has not been interested in non sexual hugging & kissing or sex. I’m the only one that tries to be affectionate but it is much like trying to love a cactus. Sex is just out of duty and is very unfulfilling. She sleeps in a separate room. Recently when I wanted to have sex with her she brought up that there were some chores that I had not gotten around to and that because of that, sex was out of the question. I told her that she was totally out of line and asked how she would feel if I withheld money, food or shelter due to things she should have gotten accomplished. Since that incident I told her that I would not be trying to have sex with her anymore and that I would just masterbate to kill my urges. I have not attempted to touch her, kiss her or compliment her good looks since that day. I have not made any mention of special holidays or bought her any gifts, called or texted her other than for pure business reasons. I have been respectful and we carry out our daily activities in good spirit without negativity. From someone looking at us from the outside, they would probably think we were in a loving relationship. 

I have researched & read NMMNG, MAP and other resources and continually try to work on my own self while trying to figure out what course of action to take next.

Besides any constructive criticism, advice or personal similarities I would like your take on this: Since the day I have ceased all attempts at any touching, kissing, compliments, romantic suggestions, calling or texting, my wife has not been agitated or nagging or complaining. She actually is civil toward me. Cooks and brings me food and generally in a lot nicer mood. So I brought up the fact that she seems to be in a lot better mood now that I show no affection toward her. I told her that I thought this was not right for a man and wife to live this way and could she explain why she was in a better mood. Her response was that I am just trying to start a fight and she would not discuss it. I just walked away from the conversation and so this state of affairs just continues. She seems like life is fine while I struggle with how to end a 32 year marriage. The really sad thing for me is that she has always been very attractive to me. I have always wanted and longed for her. Recently I have felt this attraction going away as I emotionally distance myself from her in preparation for moving on.

Hopefully someone out there can shed some light on this situation for me.


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## Kitt

First of all, I'm very sorry for your situation. Secondly, thanks for writing such a detailed post. It helps to see where you are viewing this from. You ask if you are wasting your time trying to resolve this, and I think at this point, with all the work you have done and most of this being her own dissatisfaction with herself, yes you are. As you probably know, we cannot change other people. Your wife has checked out of your marriage IMHO. I know many couples married for over thirty years and there is a level of respect and trust there, and general admiration, passion and love that makes me aware that long term marriages are possible. The wives are self fulfilled though and share their lives with their spouse, both work like hell to right a wrong or clear the air when problems arise. I've only been married for twenty years, but I can say that it is my responsibility to have a happy life, not my husband's. Sometimes you can fight every battle tenaciously, and be perfect at it, and still lose the war. If she isn't participating and has already checked out, she is just going to drag you down with her in her negativity. Also, the sex for favors tripe makes me livid. Sex is a sharing of your love and commitment, not a bartering tool to get you to take out the garbage. The disrespect in that alone makes me cringe. I'm very much pro marriage but not to the detriment of your quality of life.

P.S. I hate to hurt your feelings, but she is in a better mood because you no longer expect her to behave like a wife at all. Like I said, she is already checked out of this marriage so this situation where you take care of her and she gets to keep her house and car and to the world appearances have not changed...therefore she got what she wanted...the perfect life to the outside world without having to act like your wife and partner.


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## Zman

Kitt 

- Thanks for your kind words of wisdom. I appreciate the honest observations and feedback. I think you have stated the obvious and now it is up to me to try to wind things down while I still have a few good seasons left in me. It will not be easy.

The alternative is to do what one of my friend's father did and ride the miserable marriage out and die an early death. I don't like that choice!


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## Married but Happy

Kitt puts it far more nicely and thoughtfully than I will. Kudos, Kitt! IMO, your marriage is an empty sham, so d1tch the b1tch. Please excuse my French.


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## kristin2349

Short answer to the title of your thread, YES you are wasting your time. I'm sorry you are here. From your description of your wife it sounds like she is just dissatisfied with everything in her life. It must be miserable to deal with every day.

Getting divorced is never easy, but in your case you might find the freedom from her perpetual dissatisfaction to be well worth the temporary pain of the process.


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## Happilymarried25

She sounds like a WAW- Walk away wife who has left emotionally but not physically, probably because she doesn't want to face the world alone. She has resentment about past things you have done and she is blaming you because she isn't happy. You two are room mates and she is probably content with that because she doesn't have to be affectionate or sexual with you.

Have you talked to her about separating? She might agree with you and then the divorce won't be so contentious. Sorry you are going through this, is sounds like you have given her a nice life.


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## Openminded

She's in a better mood because you aren't requesting sex or affection from her. You two are now just roommates with a long shared history and she's much happier that way. 

If you tell her you're divorcing her (or if she sees divorce papers in front of her) then that might wake her up to what she's losing -- but it also may not. You need to be prepared either way. 

There is definitely life after a long marriage (I ended mine a couple of years ago after 45 years). You'll be amazed.


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## aine

She has emotionally checked out of the marriage. She needs to see how that is affecting you. Sit her down, lay all cards on the table about how her behaviour is affecting you, the lack of affection, sex etc. Tell her, if she no longer wants to be your wife in every sense of the word, then the alternative is divorce or an open marriage. See how she reacts to that.


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## Zman

Thanks for the responses! So far everyone's replies seem to have the same take on my situation. I had to let a long time employee go last week. It was really hard but it was something that needed to be done for a long time. Highest paid with easiest job and the most unhappy. Got to the point that the negativity was dragging everyone else down and productivity was dropping off. We don't have a replacement yet, and I am working my butt off to cover the work, but it kind of feels good not to have to deal with the selfish attitude and unappreciation for the job. 

I feel like my marriage is similar. I work hard and carry a big "overhead" at home with no appreciation, affection and many times what seems to be downright hatred. The biggest similarities with both these situations are a sense of entitlement and expectation that someone else is suppose to work hard and make them happy. 

I pretty much live a single man's life now anyway but carry the load of supporting a family. Barring some sort of miraculous change in attitude on her part I can see the handwriting on the wall. It will take some strategic planning due to our joint ownership of a business but you all have confirmed what direction I should be going.

On a side note I urged her to have her hormones tested a while back. She got upset with me and told me that had nothing to do with her issues. Strange thing is that she actually followed up with the doctor I recommended to her. I think this is because deep down she knows there is something wrong with her. Surprise! - All her levels tested "0" and she has just begun some hormone replacement supplements prescribed by the doctor. Maybe this will help - time will tell and I'm not banking on it so it won't hurt for me to start planning my transition in the mean time.


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## aine

At 54 i thought she would have passed the menopause stage, but if that is the problem it can wreak havoc with a marriage. Have a read of this blog and some of the men's comments. 

My Wife is in Perimenopause and Hates Me ? The Perimenopause Blog

Wives often become a version of jekyll and hyde. It's her lack reluctance to even consider that she might be contributing to the disconnect in your marriage.

With regard to the fact that you feel as if you are just a provider, then many men I believe feel like this at this stage of life due to the fact that they have put almost everything into providing for their families but have lost or failed to also put effort into areas which their wife needs. Wives generally need affection, intimate conversation (His Needs Her Needs) and if that has not been cultivated over the years, wives may switch off and just see the husband as a provider and nothing else, when the connection is lost, it is very difficult to get it back. The husband being a problem solver, sees nothing wrong with starting to do just that and coming up with ways to reconnect but the wife may have already reached the point of no return.
So in a way it is possible you contributed to the current scenario. It would be good if you could get your wife to read some of the books mentioned on TAM as they might give her insight into your current situation and a willingness to try.


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## Zman

Aine - Yea, I'm with you on this but she won't discuss these things with me. I have told her that she is just trying to control the situation by being silent. 

She can curse at me and and get out of control but I am just suppose to read her mind. I think she lives in a romance novel mind and since I don't respond like the men in her fantasy land I am always wrong. In all my 32 years of marriage I don't think she has ever given me a heart felt apology. I just don't think it is in her. Kind of like a father that can't tell his child that he loves them. About 20 years into the marriage I did the math and felt that even if I was cause of most all the problems within the marriage, surely it couldn't be 100%. It was then that I started to realize that even when she is clearly in the wrong there will never be an apology and that I am not wrong 100% of the time. She just goes for days being silent because her system would explode if she accepted responsibility. 

When I have everything ready to go on my end I will probably do something similar to what you suggested. I don't want to lay it out for her without being ready for action. This may take a while.


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## Zman

Aine - You're right. I'm imperfect and no doubt have contributed to the situation. Over the years I have been willing to work on the areas where I am lacking but it never seemed to be to her satisfaction. Like I mentioned in my original post, the counselor we saw together gave us homework assignments. I really tried to work with her but she just would not participate and this was quite a few years ago when we still had children at home. That's why the counselor called me in to tell me he just could not go any further. 

Churches have traditionally taught that if the husband treats the wife properly "as Christ loves the church" she will have respect and love her husband. I certainly would not disagree with this but the problem is we are not perfect like Christ and even if we are trying to be like Christ, it doesn't mean our wives will respond in kind. For example - my wife's mother became ill and she was headed out the door to go see her. I asked her if she would like to pray together for her mother before she left the house. Her response to me was "is this some kind of joke?" I said no and that if she felt that way I would just pray for her mother on my own. I just don't understand her thought process.


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## EleGirl

How many years has your wife worked in the company?

In your pretty detailed write up, you did not mention anything that the two of you do together other then you took her to some exotic places. What sorts of things do you two do together. I you don't do anything, why not? How long ago did you two stop?


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## Zman

Yes Elegirl - you have made a keen observation. Between the business and her watching our grand daughter it is very difficult for us to get away. We try to do small things together close to home. We ride road bikes (bicycles) and antique Hondas (motorized). Sometimes we rent a place on the beach that we live close to and have some private time away from home. 

Last month however, we did do a cross country mixed business & personal trip and went to see her relatives. I bought her first class planes tickets and we had a pretty good time flying & driving back across the country. Last year we went on a week long mountain biking trip with 6 other couples. We also like to visit Maine in the summer and may go again in September of this year. We have season baseball tickets to a team close by where the games are more for socializing than the game but she won't come with me. 

She wants us to get a camper and I have looked at a few for sale and shown them to her but she expects us to buy a $100K new motorhome that is not within the realm of possibility. In order for her to be interested it has to be high dollar and she has no clue where the money is going to come from. Its pretty much up to me to plan any kind of getaway and in the past when I make suggestions she shoots me down or goes along and then tells me how bad it was after we get home. And this is when I am really trying to plan something I think she would want to do. Its even very difficult to go out to eat with her because the food is hardly ever good enough for her. You know, why can't the food be off but we just got to go out and spend time being together. Why can't that be ok sometimes? Sometimes I get a thrill just looking at her across the table and telling her how she is still as attractive to me now as she was 32 years ago. Do women not like to hear that? Do they not like it when their husband still loves them just the way they are and is happy just to be with them doing anything?

To be honest I really don't want to go away with her anymore. Even when we are alone there is no kind of intimate talk or play and I just get home in a worse attitude than before we left. Add the fact that usually a lot of money was spent for her to be unhappy makes me just not want to do anything with her. Just this past week when she went to visit her relative she called me everyday to tell me what she did and we talked about it. That's as far as it goes. When I try to send fun flirty texts to her she ignores them. I feel am just a roommate for her that pays for her half of the rent as well as mine.


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## gouge_away

Have you read *Boundaries* _by_ Henry Cloud & John Townsend?

I find it interesting that the churches traditionally teach that _if a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church, then she will be inclined to respect her husband._
Sadly that isn't the case, its not even close to being the norm in 'Christian' marriages that I've observed.

I don't think it is in our fallen nature to be inclined to love our wives, nor is it in our fallen nature for our wives to be inclined to respect us husbands.

Respect almost goes without saying for men, and typically women are more loving by nature. However love for a man and respect for a woman seem reciprocal.

A wife un-loved will wonder how anybody could respect her husband. Likewise, the disrespected husband assumes his wife is *"unlovable."*


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## EleGirl

Zman said:


> Yes Elegirl - you have made a keen observation. Between the business and her watching our grand daughter it is very difficult for us to get away. We try to do small things together close to home. We ride road bikes (bicycles) and antique Hondas (motorized). Sometimes we rent a place on the beach that we live close to and have some private time away from home.
> 
> Last month however, we did do a cross country mixed business & personal trip and went to see her relatives. I bought her first class planes tickets and we had a pretty good time flying & driving back across the country. Last year we went on a week long mountain biking trip with 6 other couples. We also like to visit Maine in the summer and may go again in September of this year. We have season baseball tickets to a team close by where the games are more for socializing than the game but she won't come with me.


How many hours a week do you work?

About how many hours a week do the two of you spend time together, just the two of you, doing date-like things? That’s everything from just sitting and talking, to walks, to bike rides, to dinner out.

A lot (not all) of the things that you talk about seem to be things that involve friends, family and other people.



Zman said:


> She wants us to get a camper and I have looked at a few for sale and shown them to her but she expects us to buy a $100K new motorhome that is not within the realm of possibility. In order for her to be interested it has to be high dollar and she has no clue where the money is going to come from. Its pretty much up to me to plan any kind of getaway and in the past when I make suggestions she shoots me down or goes along and then tells me how bad it was after we get home. And this is when I am really trying to plan something I think she would want to do. Its even very difficult to go out to eat with her because the food is hardly ever good enough for her. You know, why can't the food be off but we just got to go out and spend time being together. Why can't that be ok sometimes?


Why does she have no clue where the money is going to come from?

You did not answer the question asking how long she has been working for your company. 



Zman said:


> Sometimes I get a thrill just looking at her across the table and telling her how she is still as attractive to me now as she was 32 years ago. Do women not like to hear that? Do they not like it when their husband still loves them just the way they are and is happy just to be with them doing anything?


This is your wife. It’s not all women. Of course there are women who would like for her husband to do these things. Each woman is an individual, just as each man.




Zman said:


> To be honest I really don't want to go away with her anymore. Even when we are alone there is no kind of intimate talk or play and I just get home in a worse attitude than before we left. Add the fact that usually a lot of money was spent for her to be unhappy makes me just not want to do anything with her. Just this past week when she went to visit her relative she called me every day to tell me what she did and we talked about it. That's as far as it goes. When I try to send fun flirty texts to her she ignores them. I feel am just a roommate for her that pays for her half of the rent as well as mine.


Does your wife ever plan things for the two of you to do together? Does she ever pick the restaurant and what you will be doing? 

It’s really hard to know from what you say how much of what is going on has to do with your wife’s view of the world and/or personality and how much of it is from the two of you growing apart over the years. My bet is that it’s a mix. Your wife sounds like she’s basically on the verge of being what is called a “Walk Away Wife”. I hate that term because it implies that a woman just suddenly walks away for no reason.

My bet is that if your wife were to tell us about your marriage from her perspective, her take on it would sound like a completely different marriage. There is usually his story, her story and the truth; which is a mix of the two.

You say that your wife has seen a doctor and is on HRT. I’d say to give that a chance before you decide to leave the marriage. 

If your wife’s hormone levels were down to zero, that goes a long way to explain her lack of interest in sex and even in relationship type things. I can even explain her complaining about everything. A person with very low hormones usually has little to no interest in sex. It’s not their fault in that the lack of interest is not willful. It’s not a choice. It has nothing to do with their spouse.

There is a guy here by the name of MountainRunner. His wife had no sex drive. Recently she stared taking HRT. She has her sex drive back now. I’ll bet that if you PM him, he’d be glad to talk with you about this.


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## Yeswecan

Zman


> She has said to me in the past that I need to go on my own and get “fixed” because she is “normal”.


Interesting. Well, since you appear as functioning as normal according to the MC then you are screwed because the W thinks you are not normal. So be it. You are wasting your time. I foresee a life long miserable existence. Consider the separation. When your W asks why simply say, "I'm not normal. Remember?"


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## tech-novelist

Short answer: yes.
Longer answer: If the hormone therapy works, it may be better for you, as she may have some interest in sex, but even with that improved it doesn't sound like she has a very good attitude.


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## Chaparral

What is her mom and dad's relationship like? I get the feeling if it isn't a hormone problem, there are family of origin problems.

Have you ever had a good sex life and how long ago?

Also, I didn't understand the hours she babysits, was that a typing error?


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## Zman

Elegirl - Finally able to check the forum after a hard week. I will try to answer your questions.

I work Mon - Fri 8-5 but get called out after hours and on weekends sometimes. Sundays lately I have managed to get open. There is usually a lot of paperwork that I need to get caught up on after hours as well. So all told probably average 50-55 hrs per week.

We usually eat dinner together every night but most nights our 2 year old grand daughter and her parents are around. We may have 2 or 3 nights a week together where we can eat alone. Sometimes when we are alone we go to her favorite restaurant which I am fine with and happy to do. On Saturdays we usually work together around the house or doing catch up work. Sundays we like to ride our motorcycles out to our favorite breakfast spots and maybe have a lazy day resting.

Just last night we worked out at the gym at the same time. Her with the women and me with the men. We are both fine with that because we get a better workout and we do talk to each other during the workout to see how the other is doing. We finished up and headed out and bought groceries together and cooked our dinner together. We spent the rest of the evening together talking about common interests and then she went to her bedroom and I went to our bedroom alone. Next morning she was up before me. I got up and started breakfast and she finished cooking it. We ate together. Afterwards on the way to work I tried to hug her in the kitchen and touch her on the behind. You would have thought I was coming at her with a kitchen knife. 

She has no clue where the money is coming from because she has no interest in the financial matters of our personal or business affairs. Just to be clear, she has the ability to access any and all of our financial accounts and does spend as she chooses and pays some of our personal and business bills on her own. She even has credit cards that I have no knowledge of what goes on with them. I have asked her a number of times over the years for her to participate in our financial affairs such as working on a budget together or discussing financial planning. She is an emotional spender. It makes no difference whether we have the funds or not. She just expects me to make it all work out in the end. It is simply not in her to have a goal to save for and be self-disciplined in working toward that goal. We should just buy something because she feels we should have it. I asked her to go together with me to a personal financial course so we could learn together the best way to handle our finances and you would thought I was asking her to have her fingernails pulled out. She just doesn't want to have to think or deal with this.

She has been working for the company since we took it over 25 years ago. She has always worked from home and has never been in the day to day operation of the company. (She chooses not to come in to the office). The situation is that she started just paying some of the bills in the early days. Maybe a few hours a week at a time of her choosing. Since about 2008 she has been responsible for most of the bookkeeping. We do have an accountant that prepares all of the tax work. I think she can get most of the work done in 3-4 hours per day. Her heart has never been into the work and I have offered to have someone else do the work so she could get a job outside of our business but really - most would see this as a "sweet deal" for the compensation she receives and I think deep down she knows it.

No she does not plan anything for the 2 of us. She expects me to read her mind, plan it out, figure out how to pay and then has plenty of complaints in the end even if she initially agreed with the plan. She would like to do some very expensive getaways but would never have the discipline to financially prepare for these types of things. Even if she did I don't think I could deal with all her disappointments after it was all said and done. 

Yes, your assumption that my wife's side of the story would be completely different is correct. I'm sure it would sound like I am a real a-hole and that I am the cause of all of the marital discourse. I have become somewhat numb to this. For example: this week I needed her to answer her phone to do something very easy for me that I needed from the home office. Maybe 2-3 minutes max. Because she will not be responsible to keep her phone so she can hear it (this has happens a lot) I had to drive all the way home to get it done. I was not happy because I was under pressure to meet a deadline. I let her know my frustration without being derogatory. The next day I get a call from my daughter because she is trying to get a hold of her mom but she does not answer. My daughter tells me that if she was on a plane that was going down and she could only call one person it would be me because mom "never answers her phone". I have gone over a number of times with my wife the frustration she is causing her family by being irresponsible with her phone. I have suggested ways to help her with this problem. I tell her it happens to everybody sometimes (leaving phone on silent by accident) but most people will be upset with themselves that they forgot to turn it back on and work on ways not to let it happen frequently. Not her, her response is to blame others for them not reminding her to keep her phone near her with the ringer on. How is that even possible? If we can't call her or text her, how in the heck can we remind her - send her a letter?

Thanks for the tip about mountain runner - I will see if I can look him up.


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## Zman

Chaparral,

Her mom and dad are exactly what I fear we will migrate into. She cannot stand to be around them very long. They are always fighting with each other. They are in their 80's and in poor health. Her mom is a look into the future and she hates what she sees and does not want to be like her all the while recognizing she is going down that path. I don't know what to do to help her.

As far as a good sex life - some happy episodes but never fully a good season. The best times would have been in our 20's and 30's. I could always get turned on by seeing her but I guess I just didn't match up with her previous loves. I was never able to read her mind. I used to do love notes and poetry but she just blew it off. One time I had a custom diamond necklace made for her - she just started crying when I gave it to her because she didn't like it. 

The baby comes over in the evening about 6pm and sleeps overnight and stays till about 1pm the next day.


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## Zman

gouge - not sure if I understand your reply. My statement was just my personal experience from what I was taught in church. I was always made to understand that if I just loved my wife like Christ then she would just naturally respond with respect. My real life experience simply has not worked out that way. Obviously I could never love her to the level of Christ Himself but I have sure put the effort in even when I didn't want to. 

Below are the passages that are usually given. I can tell you that over the years if my wife did not agree with my wishes, especially raising our children, she would go behind my back and tell them they did not have to do what I said. In later life we are still having to deal with some of the bad habits that should have been over with if my instructions had been followed. I never told them they had a bad mother but the opposite was not true.


Instructions for Christian Households

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing* her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.*


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## gouge_away

Do you feel as if the Church has taught you Ephesians 5 implies a tit for tat, reciprocal relationship between husbands and wives?


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## WorkingWife

Zman said:


> On a side note I urged her to have her hormones tested a while back. She got upset with me and told me that had nothing to do with her issues. Strange thing is that she actually followed up with the doctor I recommended to her. I think this is because deep down she knows there is something wrong with her. Surprise! - All her levels tested "0" and she has just begun some hormone replacement supplements prescribed by the doctor. Maybe this will help - time will tell and I'm not banking on it so it won't hurt for me to start planning my transition in the mean time.


I hope it helps. I recently saw a doctor regarding hormones/menopause and it is a miracle how the HRT has helped. I realize now that I really have not been "not anxious" since puberty. I am able to relax for the first time in 20 years...

Your wife really has no idea how good she has it compared to so many. I think I would be so happy and content with what you describe.

Has this always been her personality or has it gotten worse over the years? It is possible that she has emotional needs that you are not meeting despite your best efforts to be a good husband and provider, and that is the real source of her malcontent feelings (coupled with mid-life hormone swings). 

I would check out the book His Needs Her Needs and see if she will read it too and discuss. The things you do to show your love may not be what she is looking for. She may be very frustrated but not know why and just be grasping for reasons to explain her general discontent with your marriage.


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## Zman

Gouge - No, not at all. I think that I am supposed to do the right thing without regard for how the other person responds. It is on them if they respond badly toward someone who is genuinely trying to love them. The difference is that I can pull this off with someone I am not married to. Seems to me the marriage situation may be a little bit different.

As far as my wife goes - I believe I would have been justified to leave her when I caught her at a single man's home doing what God only knows behind my back. I stayed because I still had a child at home at the time. She never fully answered my questions or ever seemed regretful for what she did other than for the fact I caught her red handed. I have tried to move past this but when a wife completely withholds all affection after I have dropped the matter some 3 years later it is putting me at the breaking point. Am I required to be a doormat for someone who is just using me for a meal ticket. I guess Christ willingly let himself be killed for an ungrateful bunch. I don't know if God expects that from me or if I am even capable of that level of love (or if that would be considered love) without supernatural empowerment.

What would you tell my wife if I refused to talk to her or give her any affection and she had caught me earlier in an emotional affair. Especially if I showed no remorse or tried to change?

Just curious to your take on my situation. I'm still somewhat unclear as to what you really think about this.


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## Zman

Workingwife - thanks for your words of encouragement! You seem like you are in a nice place since you got on them. For my wife, I really hope the BHRT makes a difference. It's looking like my last hope unless Jesus returns soon. 

It's very hard for me to know where I'm missing the mark(s) as far as the emotional needs go because she refuses to talk to me about our relationship. I really don't think she knows. The only thing I can get out of her are physical / material things she doesn't have and I refuse to kill myself anymore to try and get her "things" just to be told about other "things" she doesn't have.


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## gouge_away

Zman said:


> Gouge - No, not at all. I think that I am supposed to do the right thing without regard for how the other person responds. It is on them if they respond badly toward someone who is genuinely trying to love them. The difference is that I can pull this off with someone I am not married to. Seems to me the marriage situation may be a little bit different.
> 
> As far as my wife goes - I believe I would have been justified to leave her when I caught her at a single man's home doing what God only knows behind my back. I stayed because I still had a child at home at the time. She never fully answered my questions or ever seemed regretful for what she did other than for the fact I caught her red handed. I have tried to move past this but when a wife completely withholds all affection after I have dropped the matter some 3 years later it is putting me at the breaking point. Am I required to be a doormat for someone who is just using me for a meal ticket. I guess Christ willingly let himself be killed for an ungrateful bunch. I don't know if God expects that from me or if I am even capable of that level of love (or if that would be considered love) without supernatural empowerment.
> 
> What would you tell my wife if I refused to talk to her or give her any affection and she had caught me earlier in an emotional affair. Especially if I showed no remorse or tried to change?
> 
> Just curious to your take on my situation. I'm still somewhat unclear as to what you really think about this.


I moved on, but I do not have children with my stbxw.

I thought about it for years, if Christ didn't forsake me, how can I forsake her...

It was clear to everybody around me, that I was just a meal ticket. On TAM, my wife an I each had our say. I ignored all the red flags, discounted the advice of everybody that knew us, including TAM which knew us more than anybody. One day my 10 year old son asked me, "do you think you can stand up to her?" I filed that day.

The moment she found out I filed for D, I discovered who she really was, and everything everybody had been telling me was undoubtedly accurate. I have no regrets divorcing my wife whatsoever.

I know what Christ wants for marriage, and family, and that wasn't going to happen in my case.
I tried, I sacrificed everything, and it wasn't enough.

But I think you should explore every opportunity to reconcile, then decide if its honorable.


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## Divinely Favored

So you think it was ONLY an EA? ! Yeah right. Caught her at another mans house. Is she at home all day while you are at work....not answering her phone....HRT is very good but she sounded like she has an entitlement attitude....like my mother. Me and my sister despise our mother for the day she treats our dad....he loves her though. 

The Bible was TELLING women to respect their husbands and husbands to love their wives. 

I would find out what else she does all day besides 3-4 hrs. Paperwork.

Since you basically rugswept her affair she may have lost respect for you.


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## gouge_away

> * D. Note on Application to Marriage* - Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem
> 
> When husbands begin to act in selfish, harsh, domineering, or even abusive and cruel ways, they should realize that this is a result of sin, a result of the fall, and is destructive and contrary to God's purposes for them. To act this way will bring great destructiveness in their lives, especially in their marriages. Husbands must rather fulfill the New Testament commands to love their wives, honor them, be considerate of them, and put them first in their interests.
> 
> Similarly, when wives feel rebellious, resentful of their husband's leadership in the family, or when they compete with their husbands for leadership in the family, they should realize that this is a result of sin, a result of the fall. They should not act that way, because to do so will bring destructive consequences to their marriages as well. A wife desiring to act in accordance with God's pattern should rather be submissive to her husband and agree that he is the leader in their home and rejoice in that.
> 
> Once we have said this, we must realize that there are two other, nearly opposite, distortions of the biblical pattern that can occur. If tyranny by the husband and usurpation of authority by the wife are errors of aggressiveness there are two other errors, errors of passivity or laziness. For a husband, the other extreme from being a domineering "tyrant" is to be entirely passive and to fail to take initiative in the family-in colloquial terms, to be a "wimp." In this distortion of the biblical pattern, a husband becomes so "considerate" of his wife that he allows her to make all the decisions and even agrees when she urges him to do wrong (note this behavior in Adam, Ahab, and Solomon, among others). Often such a husband is increasingly absent (either physically or emotionally) from the home and occupies his time almost exclusively with other concerns.
> 
> The corresponding error on the part of the wife, opposite of attempting to domineer or usurp authority over her husband, is becoming entirely passive, contributing nothing to the decision-making process of the family, and being unwilling to speak words of correction to her husband, even though he is doing wrong. Submission to authority does not mean being entirely passive and agreeing with everything that the person in authority says or suggests-it is certainly not that way when we are submissive to the authority of an employer or of government officials (we can certainly differ with our government and still be subject to it), or even of the authority of the officers in a church (we can be subject to them even though we may disagree with some of their decisions). A wife can certainly be subject to the authority of her husband and still participate fully in the decision-making process of the family.
> 
> Husbands, therefore, should aim for loving, considerate, thoughtful leadership in their families. Wives should aim for active, intelligent, joyful submission to their husbands' authority. In avoiding both kinds of mistakes and following a biblical pattern, husbands and wives will discover true biblical manhood and womanhood in all of their noble dignity and joyful complementarity, as God created them to be, and will thus reflect more fully the image of God in their lives.


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## morituri

You have to accept and embrace the reality that your wife is, and may have never been, "into you" sexually speaking. The fact that she more than likely cheated on you with the single man, proves this in spades. Even cheating wives will often have "duty sex" with their husbands but their thoughts and feelings will be with the OM (other man). 

You have a WINO (Wife In Name Only).


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## WorkingWife

Zman said:


> ...In all my 32 years of marriage I don't think she has ever given me a heart felt apology. I just don't think it is in her. Kind of like a father that can't tell his child that he loves them. About 20 years into the marriage I did the math and felt that even if I was cause of most all the problems within the marriage, surely it couldn't be 100%. It was then that I started to realize that even when she is clearly in the wrong there will never be an apology and that I am not wrong 100% of the time. She just goes for days being silent because her system would explode if she accepted responsibility.


That is really sad. I feel for you. I would not blame you for ending the marriage. I would be happier being alone than with someone like that.

BTW, My H gave me the "silent treatment" that lasted a couple days 2 or 3 times. The last time I told him this would NEVER happen again. I will leave. It's cruel and controlling. What is the point in being together if one person will not speak?


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## Zman

To the ones who think I overlooked the EA/PA I don't know what else I should have done. I have a video of her with the other man at his house. I immediately confronted both of them on the spot in anger just short of bloodshed. I revealed what had taken place with her parents, my children and others. I immediately put her on a no contact status with him, Had weeks / months of angry sessions with her and insisted she read some straight forward material on what damage she had caused. I have continuously monitored for signs of re-contact and not found any.

Does this mean that she gives a damn for what she did or has found ways to sneak around my back. I can never be 100% sure. It's been 3 years and I have not discovered any signs. 

Here are some random thoughts:

She is wonderful with children and animals. She cooks, cleans and even waits on me sometimes. She is not good with people who she does not view as 100% white/good from her perspective. At the first sign of anything she doesn't like about them she breaks contact. She is usually fine doing things with me as long as it does not involve any touching, kissing, sleeping in same bed, sexual nature of any kind.
If I make any attempt she gets very angry. 

Example: This weekend she wanted to go on a bike ride together. I happily agreed and we had a good ride and she was in a good mood. When we got home I let her know that after our showers I would really like to spend some alone time with her. It had been many weeks. I felt like I was having sex with an angry prostitute that wanted me gone. It was an awful experience. The only thing that got me through it was sheer sexual starvation. Shortly after that episode she was willing and ready to ride our motorbikes to a new restaurant. We went and had a good time for the rest of the day - just the two of us like a happily married couple. - Just seems so wierd and crazy to me.

These are some of the possibilities of things that cross my mind about her:

1 - Borderline Personality Disorder
2 - Sexual Molestation / Rape / Abuse at an earlier age
3 - Menopause / Hormones out of range (compounding #1 &2)

Just wondering if anyone else might see any of these as possibilities of what I am dealing with.


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## Tron

Zman said:


> These are some of the possibilities of things that cross my mind about her:
> 
> 1 - Borderline Personality Disorder
> 2 - Sexual Molestation / Rape / Abuse at an earlier age
> 3 - Menopause / Hormones out of range (compounding #1 &2)
> 
> Just wondering if anyone else might see any of these as possibilities of what I am dealing with.


1 - Lots of red flags
2 - Lots of red flags
3 - Lots of red flags

Since it's all your fault and your the one that needs therapy, you'll likely never know for sure.

It may be time to upset the apple cart and move out.


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## Vulcan2013

Damn. At the very least you should stop catering to her. 

She's using you, and you are being pathetic. She cheated, she's not sorry, and she's punishing you for knowing. Don't date her, do the 180. Move into a spare room, and start prepping for D. 

Get NNMNG. apply it.


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## EVG39

Zman, what a terrible soul crushing situation. This woman seems quite frankly to not only not love and respect you, but to take pleasure in actively hurting you. Even if the HRT "fixed" the desire issue why on earth would you want to stay with someone that seems to despise you? She is kind to other (white) people and animals and not you? Sheesh. What a woman. You sir are in your prime of life with many good years left. I suspect she has so beat down your self esteem that you don't believe it but you need to know you really are capable of being loved by a good woman. And she ain't it buddy. Get in to see a lawyer and get the ball rolling and don't look back. in the meantime implement the 180 and stop the darn bike rides and all the other things you are doing that make her comfortable in a relationship where she gets her needs met and you get tormented. You're burning daylight.


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## Iver

_She is usually fine doing things with me as long as it does not involve any touching, kissing, sleeping in same bed, sexual nature of any kind._

What you are describing is a roommate or a friend, not a wife.

I'd suggest putting a VAR in her car to see if she is involved with someone else. (if it matters at this point)

You need to decide if this is how you want to live your life. One way to do this is pretend one of your children came to you and said this is how they are living. What would you tell them to do about it?


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## Zman

Update: This evening my grown children, along with their spouses and our grandchild all went out together with the wife and I. The wife was in a great mood all evening and we even held hands as we all walked and talked together. After we concluded the evening, the wife and I rode home alone together talking about the night with the family and other topics of mutual interest. Everything seemed very pleasant. As we got home I told her that I wanted her to sleep in the same bed as me. There was no pressure or implied thought to be sexual in my comments. I was just trying to get her to sleep in the same bed with me at least for the night. Her response was "why". I said because I want you to. After that she quit talking to me, changed into her night clothes and went to her own bedroom for the night. 


I am beginning to wonder if the following quote I found might be what is going on:

She wants a divorce and is pushing you towards it. This is a very common manipulative technique that I see people use. Sometimes they do this consciously, and sometimes, they are not even aware that they are doing this. Basically, in your case, this would mean that your wife, for whatever reason, is done with the marriage, but does not know how to leave it. She is therefore withdrawing all forms of sex and intimacy from you, and pushing you away, in the hope that you would give up and leave. That way, you will be the one that initiated the divorce and not her. 

I also found this interesting article that describes from a biblical standpoint how to deal with a wife/spouse that is treating me the way she has been. It seems like the steps recommended would be worthwhile to try and follow. I think it would give me a clear conscience that I had done all I could prior to initiating a divorce. 

8 steps to confront your wife?s sexual refusal | Biblical Gender Roles


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## EleGirl

How religious is your wife?

None of us know here if she buys into the religious obligation for women to have sex with her husband when he asks her.. that she has no right to refuse except for physical & mental health reasons.

The idea of discipline because the man is in authority over the wife will only fly with a few people. 

Statistically, your wife is not interested in sex with you for one of two reasons: 1) she has lost her libido due to hormonal changes. 2) She harbors resentment and anger towards you.

Usually #2 is the reason why both men and women with hold sex.

But neither of those will be solved by you telling your wife that she has to have sex with you, even if she does not want it, because the Bible told you so.

If #1 is the issue, well how does it help?

If #2 is the issue, it will piss her off even more.

You can try it. But like it says, she might walk. So it's up to you.



> "Those who oppose this type of confrontation will accuse me of advocating that men manipulate their wives into having sex with them more. But what these same people would fail to understand is, there is a big difference between manipulation, and discipline.
> 
> Manipulation is when someone who is an equal (like a friend, a coworker, a fellow student…etc.) or someone in a lower position (like a child, or employee, someone of lower rank) tries to make life difficult for their fellow equal or for their authority figure by doing certain actions in order to get them to do something they want. A union strike is a form of manipulation. A child throwing a temper tantrum or giving their parent the “silent treatment” is a form of manipulation. A wife withholding sex when she is angry at her husband, or giving him the “silent treatment” is also a form of manipulation. Sometimes manipulation is just pure retaliation.
> 
> *Discipline, on the other hand is very different from manipulation. *Discipline is performed by one who is in authority over one who is under their authority. It is action taken by an authority to attempt to modify the bad behavior of the subject of that authority so that they will behave correctly in the future. True Biblical discipline should never be done out of a spirit of retaliation or revenge."


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## SurpriseMyself

gouge_away said:


> A wife un-loved will wonder how anybody could respect her husband. Likewise, the disrespected husband assumes his wife is *"unlovable."*


This is powerful in it's simple truth. The wife must know how to ensure her husband feels her respect and a husband must know how to make his wife feel loved. 

When did it start? Did the love fade as the disrespect started? What can you fix, if you even want to any more?

I think that many men try to show love trough earning money or keeping up the house, and likewise want respect for both. But love doesn't grow just because the house is neat and the couple goes on trips. It's chemistry and connection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Some women marry men because they're supposed to. And to support them.

Lucky you, you ended up with one. 

She probably did have sexual abuse as a child; it would explain a lot of her actions. But makes no difference, you're stuck with a woman who couldn't care if you were alive or dead; as long as you continue to provide for her.

I suggest you arrange for a legal separation, if your state allows it. My guess is that one of two things will happen. Either it will wake her up to what she really had in you, and she'll open her eyes to what she's doing. Or you'll both realize you're happier alone and you can move on.


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## aine

Sounds to me like your wife thinks you will always be available for her to support her and do things the way she wants to without any consideration of your feelings. Have you actually sat down with her and told her about all these things that is on your heart and how unhappy you are with the status quo. You can tell her you love her and want to work through the issues and whatever things she may not be happy with but you are not going to spend the rest of your days this way.
If she does not respond then you have to consider creating a life for yourself, making new friends, doing new activities without her. She wants to have her cake and eat it, you have to put a stop to that. Maybe try the 180 on her.
have you considered MC more recently?


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## barbados

OP,

You are nothing more to this woman than a paycheck and provider, but its YOU who refuses to accept it.

She already cheated on you once, that you know of, and you rug swept that and continued on with this woman who does not love you, or frankly sounds like she does not even like you.

At this point, all your misery is self inflicted. You could get out and D, find a great woman to be with who actually likes you and is sexually attracted to you, and be happy but that would require you to finally stop being such a doormat.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS, NOT HERS !


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## Zman

Barbados - 

I believe you are correct in your assessment of the situation. I am the one who has to make the move and it appears that she would like me to "be the bad guy". This is not a problem for me as I am used to "being the bad guy" in many areas of my life where that needs to happen. 

After 32 years however, there are many things that need to be deconstructed in a systematic way in order to put myself in the best position to move forward. Both mentally and physically. As I work on the physical I appreciate being able to share my mental obstacles here and have those such as yourself give me advice and encouragement. It is very much welcomed and appreciated.


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## Zman

Status Update

I have completed an application to have a church leader discuss my situation. As soon as I am contacted I plan to set up an appointment to discuss my situation from a spiritual standpoint. I would like to have a clear conscience that I have done what I can from my perspective to be the husband I should be. I'm not expecting much to change but I think by having myself examined that anything uncovered will be a benefit to any future relations. In the meantime, here are some links I came across that some might find interesting.

Humorous - This one pretty much describes my wife's affection toward me.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kelseydarragh/when-youre-single-af#.iplAj5Zar5

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another approach that is probably not going to work for me in my situation.

The Ultimate Husband

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is one of the best authors I have come across the helps the explain female behavior in a man's terms.

San Diego Man Camp


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## Zman

A weekend snapshot of my life:

Thurs after work I came home and we were talking. I told her I was dealing with an issue at work in an attempt to hire a new person and I would really like to get her perspective on the situation. After I explained the issue she just started getting all upset with me. "Why didn't I do this and why are you wasting your time with that person." Wow! Just reminded me of why I don't share things about myself with her. 

Fri - Came home Fri evening after work and workout. She was sitting around watching tv with a sore neck and had nothing planned for dinner so I offered to go and get some nice steaks and cook them for us. She contributed by preparing side dish. We had a very nice dinner at home and watched a movie of her choosing. She then went to her room and me to mine for the night.

Sat - Got up and got some breakfast going for us. Asked her if she had plans and she wanted me to go shopping with her. I agreed no problem. I told her that before we left the house I wanted to have some intimate time with her. In her terms that meant "mercy sex". She said she wanted to get her shower first. After we had our "separate showers" I approached her and got the "get away from me talk". I just let it go and cleaned up the kitchen while she finished getting ready. While we were at the grocery store I pointed out a selection in the cooler that I wanted to get. She reached in and got one for herself and put it in the basket. When I asked her to get one for me she says "you're standing there, get it yourself". That attitude really pissed me off and when we got in the car I really let her have it about her BS attitude with me. The rest of the afternoon and evening I got called into work until aprox 10pm while she stayed in front of the tv until midnight.

Sun - Got up and fixed my own breakfast, went outside, had some chatting with my guy neighbor while he worked on his house and I worked in the yard all day until 7pm. She stayed inside doing some business paperwork but mostly facebook and tv watching. I did my own food for the day. 

Writing this out helps me de-stress a bit. Thank you for reading.


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## turnera

Just stop hanging around her. Go get a REAL life. Let her see you enjoying it. Make a point of letting her see you enjoying it. Make your life so great she'll start regretting letting you go.


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## Dyokemm

Zman,

You said in your initial post, before posting you marital troubles, that there were no affairs in your M past.

Then you later mention catching her red-handed at another man's house.

But not one word about what you ever discovered about what really happened or any consequences/changes to your M other than demanding NC with the POS and monitoring to ensure it has lasted the past three years.

It sounds to me that you are dealing with an angry, unrepentant cheater who is still carrying around all of the justifications and excuses she gave herself for having her A....but who also has not left because she doesn't want to give up the nice lifestyle you provide.

Up to this point, you seem to have been reluctant to force a resolution of this mess.

You either need her to come clean about the A and work to fix the damage she has done to the M....or you need to end her using you simply as a meal ticket.


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## Zman

Turnera - Are you saying to go get a real life while still married to her or after I leave? Currently I am fairly happy with my life except for the part where I support a wife that wants nothing to do with me. (that part I really do hate!) I like my job, and get a lot of people interaction. I am amazed at some of the deep personal situations that people open up to me about so I guess they think I am an ok person. I like where I live and am happy with my physical condition and enjoy being with my workout partners and coaches. I enjoy something about most everyday in one way or another. Sometimes I hang out and work on motorcycles with my brother or leave for a long weekend out of town without the wife. 

A few days ago a friend called me. When I asked him how he was doing he said "blessed". This man is blessed because he does for others. He runs a program to help troubled boys get their act together. He doesn't have to do it but he wants to give back to the community instead of complaining. I also told him that I was blessed because despite my marriage troubles I otherwise have a good life. Don't get me wrong, the current marriage situation is unacceptable but it does not keep me from completely failing to acknowledge the good things while I try to navigate to a better situation in this area.

When I told my wife that my friend said he was blessed her response was " Sure, he can say that because he lives in a nice house on the beach". She is just miserable.

She is putting on weight and generally has an unappreciative, unhappy attitude. She never can say anything nice to me or about me. She has an excuse for everything and hates her life. I have told her that if she made me a list of everything in life that she is unhappy about and I waived the magic wand and fixed it all she would still be a miserable person because she would already have a new and longer "unhappy list". 

Tonight I rode my motorbike out to a store and met a nice woman there and started a conversation with her. I didn't talk about my situation at all but within a few minutes she was opening up and told me her husband had cheated on her. I didn't try to go any further on that subject but we had some other common interests we talked about. I really did enjoy these few minutes of female conversation and it made me happy just talking to her. 

My wife accuses me of being in my own world but I don't think she knows me and I know I don't want to live in hers.

So in reponse to your advice, I think some of what you are saying is already going on. Each day I work at trying to not let her upset me and to enjoy things I like. I am not waiting on her to be happy because that day may never come. 

Our anniversary is coming up. What do you say I don't acknowledge it in any way and go do something on my own!


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## aine

So sorry ZM but she is freezing you out big time. You have to take the high road and stop letting her play games with you. 

You are still trying to engage her and meet her needs while she is doing the opposite. The 180 might be very helpful here you have to show her that you are not going to follow her 
around like a puppy.
Take up new hobbies, go to they gym, dress better, spend more time out of the house. This might peak her interest. 
She probably knows that you will never cheat on her so feels confident in that but this does not mean you cannot go out and do other things without her and enjoy yourself.
Join an NGO to get your mind of things at home.


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## Zman

Dyokemm - Sorry for not being clear about the affair. The initial description is about me. I have never had EA or PA (only in my mind). 

You sir/mam, are dead on about your assessment of the situation:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
It sounds to me that you are dealing with an angry, unrepentant cheater who is still carrying around all of the justifications and excuses she gave herself for having her A....but who also has not left because she doesn't want to give up the nice lifestyle you provide.

Up to this point, you seem to have been reluctant to force a resolution of this mess.

You either need her to come clean about the A and work to fix the damage she has done to the M....or you need to end her using you simply as a meal ticket.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think she is only sorry that I caught her in the affair. I don't have proof of it being physical but I am not naive enough to think "they were just good friends". I don't think she will ever tell me the real truth of what happened. I have known her to lie to the bitter end about far less issues all the while I'm holding proof positive evidence of her lie. 
She doesn't want me to ask her anymore questions about it but I still do from time to time when the urge hits me. 

She considers her lifestyle on a par with living in the ghetto openly but I think she knows better on the inside.

The main problem for me is that she technically owns half of our business and could wreck the lives of our employees along with mine if I don't sort this out with a lot of forethought. 

Here is my current strategy while at the same time working on myself to be the best and at peace person I can be.

1. Contact my church to discuss the spiritual condition of my marriage and ask for help /advice as to what I can/should do to fix the problem. It would really help me move forward if the church is on board with my actions. (I have already started the ball rolling here by submitting the paperwork)

2. Have an old phone I just found of hers forensically examined for any evidence of the text message content during the affair period
(I have found a company that specializes in this and will contact them this week.)

3. Depending of outcomes of 1 & 2 , get legal counsel regarding separation / divorce.

4. Move forward with best plan to exit marriage

5. Complete split, move on, find and live happily ever after with woman of my dreams. LOL!


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## Zman

aine - NGO? Non Gov Org?


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## turnera

Yes, I mean to get a life while still married to her. It will accomplish a few things. Show her that you WILL move on; we want what we can't have, so when she sees you getting fulfillment outside the house, she'll likely become more interested in you - if that's what you want. And if it's not what you want, it won't matter because you'll be getting your fulfillment outside the house and will be happier. It won't rock the boat in terms of the company. And as you start developing a life you'll start becoming more sure of yourself, what you want, and be able to see it in tangible returns...giving you more impetus to go ahead and pull the plug or else give you the confidence to tell her 'fix things or get out.'


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## aine

Zman said:


> aine - NGO? Non Gov Org?


Yes, a charity, non gov, etc


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## Ynot

I just saw this thread. There are many similarities in the OP's situation to one that I was in with my ex. Mainly the parts about the OP feeling like a meal ticket, unappreciated, unloved and disrespected. I too tried to discuss these issues with my ex. . Every discussion turned into an argument which usually ended with her telling me "I am doing the best I can and if you don't like it I am leaving!" and then me apologizing to her. We never resolved the issues. It ended with our divorce.
Looking back, neither of us knew how to communicate effectively. Neither of us knew how little either of us really knew about how a marriage was supposed to work. Honestly I don't think our marriage was meeting either of our expectations. It last 24 years like that. 
I feel sorry for the OP because I have been there. I wish I could be more helpful. But the bottom line is that it takes two to make a marriage work. If she is exhibiting the behavior you describe and refuses to look inward at her self. Then there is really nothing more to say. She has actually already made the decision for you. Again, I feel for the OP because I have been there as well.
As far as untangling your finances go, do not remain mired in the muck. These issues were some that made me feel even more trapped and unhappy towards the end of my marriage. We lived isolated in a small town with limited opportunities. I was (am) self employed in a business requiring local expertise. She commuted to work in a city 35 miles away. We owned a home together. I could not see a possibility of managing untangling these things. In order to do so everything had to align exactly and I didn't see how that was possible. I felt trapped. 
She wanted to move. But it was hard for me to empathize with her since she spent more time fixing her hair than she did driving and gave away two or three times that working for free (she was salary) at a job that paid a third of what I was making. My job required me to be local. Moving away would have required giving up a large part of my territory. 
She wanted to sell our house. But I had invested thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars in it. it was no where close to what I eventually dreamt it could be. We lived there at her insistence. I resented her everytime she suggested we sell. I didn't think we could get anything out of the property as there were many small things that needed done. She had stopped investing much time in the house a few years before. When we first bought it she gladly rolled up her sleeves and did whatever - painting, decorating, gardening. Towards the end she couldn't even be bothered to help with cutting the grass when I was sick.
She would come home from work "exhausted", "constipated", "tired", "stressed" etc etc. Which I had learned over the years to mean "stay away from me", "don't touch me" and "I am not interested". To the point where I never bothered to even attempt to initiate sex. When we did have sex every week or two or three or four it was usually just duty sex on her part, typically preceded with "if you hurry up you can get a little" or "you have five minutes". She told me once "I am just so busy and have so many things going on in my life that I don't have time to think about it!" Yeah, those words really did wonders for my self esteem.
She was like your wife as well in that she never knew or cared where the money was going to come from. She knew what she wanted and that was that. One of the last things she did was plan a Disney vacation for our daughter's graduation. I told her we couldn't afford it. I suggested cheaper alternatives. She ignored me and made plans. Then she convinced our son and DIL to pay half. I was told to write a check to cover our share after the fact. When it came time to go, she didn't have any money set aside so once again, I paid for our incidentals. 
Anyways, when she left, I was able to untangle everything within a month.. I sold my house to a neighbor for my asking price. I closed my business and took a job in a more distant city, she moved closer to her employment (and is probably giving away even more of her time) and everything was untangled.
I often felt like I was given no choice, had no say, didn't matter and was an after thought in her life. 
Sorry for rambling. I didn't mean to highjack your thread. I guess I just want you to know that I know how you feel.


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## Dude007

Ynot said:


> I didn't mean to highjack your thread.


Watch out!!! The HIJACK POLICE MAY COME AFTER YOU!!! DUDE


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## LongWalk

YNot's story seems relevant.

Zman,

Why is the counsel of your church spiritual leaders so important?

What do you think your wife's reaction to the proposal to divorce will be?

She will try and ruin your business?

Go to the bank and discuss getting a loan to buy her out.

One approach to dividing the business is get a agreement set up. One of you sets the price, the other decides whether to buy or sell.

One thing you should do is stop riding bikes and motorcycles with her. You just feel the rejection worse. Stop going shopping with her.


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## 6301

Ya know, I have to ask you just how long your going to allow her to grind her heels into you groin. There comes a point when you have to stop with the nice guy bulls--t and make some changes.

If your wife refuses to share a bed with her husband, refuses any king of intimacy with you, always gives you a ration or two of complaining and is never happy no matter what you do, and you keep her around then it's time for you to look in the mirror and find the blame.

Comes down to this. You sit her ass down and let her know that if she ain't happy then get the hell out so you can be. Grab her luggage and tell her to pack and go live with her mother and dad or out in the street for all you care but not under the same roof with you. Let her know that since she's not happy then she's free to go and you wont stop her but you'll be more then willing to get her out of there. 

Let her know that if she can't act like the way a wife and partner should act then go see if she can find it elsewhere but your not putting up with it any longer.

The problem is you've been kissing her ass for so long that she's using you as a whipping boy and until you get off your knees, start acting like a grown man, stick up for yourself, reclaim your self respect, dignity and your balls, your nothing to her but a punching bag. 

All you do is make one excuse after the other and in the mean time ask her if she wants to kick you once more before bed time. Grow up and take charge of your life. Maybe if she see that your not a patsy any longer she'll be more respectful but I doubt it because treating you like $h!t has become a way of life for her. Your choice friend


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## Bobby5000

I'd tell her you are going to call it a day on the marriage if there are not some dramatic changes which is unlikely. There's more to life. Try to be civil but she is unhappy and that apparently will not change.


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## Bobby5000

Any yes you are wasting your time.


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## JohnA

You have your own business. Do you have an accountant? Good Accountants do more then taxes. The good ones do finance. 

You can do what I always advse BS to do. Before you move hold all the cards, know the outcome. Talk to a good lawyer and accountant. Have the money figured out, have the living situation figured out then demand a healthy marriage or divorce. Do not allow any other considerations to interfer. File, most states have a cooling off period. Be adamant any MC take place during this time period. Do not allow "if you withdraw the motion, i will try MC.

Your wife's attitude remainds of the a joke told me by several women: what does a women do with her ass..... Every morning. Feed it, dress it, and send it to work. 

I knew both their husbands, can't say they did not have a point. Hope this dose not get e banned.


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## Zman

Update as of 9/15/2015.

Wanted to let you all know that I really appreciate the continued advice and sharing of your personal experiences. Keep em coming! They really help me to stay focused and de-stress. Seems like the overall theme of the coaching here is that in order for my situation to get any better I will need to give some ultimatums and be willing to follow thru with a dissolution of the marriage if she is unwilling to make any changes for the better. Sadly, I believe this is more than likely the only action that will have any results.

I was finally able to talk to a church leader over the phone and I really wasn't able to get deep into my problem but I got the impression that had I gone in personally to discuss it, the best I would have gotten is a lot of generic "love your wife" and we will pray for you type advice. That is fine, good and appreciated but I believe that I am in need of guidance at a deeper level of understanding. I think the advice I have already gotten here is probably from more of an understanding perspective and more helpful for me to process the direction I need to pursue.

I think "JohnA" is right about laying low until I can get professional help regarding my legal and financial situation and then setting up for the best outcome.

I also ran a recovery program on the old phone to see if I might find any smoking gun text messages regarding her past indiscretions. Unfortunately, I believe I was too late to as it could only read back aprox 1 year and I think the data had been overwritten. I have found a service that can check the phone but is is about $1000.00 and there is no guarantee that they could find any more than I did. If anyone has any experience with this please let me know.

I found a podcast with a MC by the name of Terry Real. He claims to be a counselor of last resort and that after a couple spends 4 sessions with him they will decide whether to move forward with the marriage or set up for divorce with an attorney. I kind of like the thought of that approach. He had a real good talk about how women can be empowered to get what they want out of their marriage. It was very good advice with plenty of real world application for both men and women. He covered exactly the problems we are having and how to make changes for the better. So, when the setting was right and we were relaxing I asked my wife if she would listen to it with me. She agreed but did not at all seem interested in what was being said so I just shut if off and told her that I saw no point in wasting her time. She just got mad at me and started raising her voice saying that she is stuck with no way out except suicide. Wow! Her negativity meter is pegged to 100%. What a needlessly sad situation for her. Anyway, I told her that I believe I got what I needed to know while thinking to myself "exit plan full ahead"!

2 more things before I close: She came by the business today to pick up something and made a "special" point to kiss me on the lips in front of the employees. All I can say is "what a hypocrite". That would never happen at home.

Lastly - a very funny less than 2 min video that is sure to make you laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

Bye!


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## aine

I know it may be said already but thoughts of suicide, etc? Have you considered your wife being checked for hormonal issues related to menopause. Has she had a full check up done? I might have mentioned this before but it is worth checking into.


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## Zman

aine - I don't believe there is any real threat of suicide on her part but rather she is saying that because she "feels trapped" in her situation helping raise a grandchild and she does not make women friends easily, and she wants to move, and she doesn't have a job outside of the home, and she doesn't have a new motorhome, and shes fat (she's not) and the house is falling down (far from it) etc, etc. She has every excuse of why she is depressed, unhappy, lonely, unfulfilled, etc. and I can listen and try to be understanding but I don't know how to help such a negative person. As I have said, I'm sure there are many women that would gladly trade places with her living conditions and be thrilled but she will never see it because she uses fantasy situations to compare herself to. Just an example: she wanted to change the color of a light fixture at our house so I took it down to my shop and prepped it, sandblasted it and repainted it, reinstalled it in the new color. The first words out her mouth were "how come the heads of the 2 mounting screws are not the new color?" Well I purposely thought the slight contrast was attractive. Rather than argue I redid the 2 screws. There will be no "you did a nice job" given. 

As far as the hormonal issues - Yes, we both have recently had extensive blood tests and have been on natural hormonal treatments for about 3 months now. She sleeps better and the very limited sexual diet she has rationed out to me "just hurry up and get it over duty sex" was not painful for her. I have seen only very minor mental improvement and she has been on the treatment longer than me.

As for me, I feel a big improvement. Gained 10 lbs of lean muscle, my crossfit workouts are better with quicker recovery time, my outlook on things is good, my stamina is good. Life is good except I would like to have sex almost everyday with a wife that never wants it with me again. I need a reverse viagra medication.


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## afab

May I ask what do your children have to say about all this?


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## turnera

There is only ONE solution to this situation.

"Give me 100% transparency or I'm moving to divorce."


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## aine

What about trying to work on bringing the romance, wining, dining, gifts, surprises back into your life. I just read recently something that a woman loves herself as much as she is loved, she is a reflection of her man. 

Women are like flowers, they have to be attended to, pruned, cared for, watered, etc. etc. Sometimes especially after so many years of marriage, men forget the things they did when they were courting, they light up a woman's heart, make her feel young again, make her glow. Long term relationships become jaded, boring and predictable and even depressing. Why not try, it might take time, you have nothing to lose. (now it should work both ways but give it time). You should also consider reading the Four Seasons of Marriage see The Four Seasons of Marriage - Home

Talk to the wife about how much you love her, need her sexually, you cannot pretend nothing is wrong.


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## turnera

aine said:


> Talk to the wife about how much you love her, need her sexually, you cannot pretend nothing is wrong.


AFTER you incorporate honesty and transparency.


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## JohnA

Read river rats thread. Some big difference butni think you will wind up in the same road. Ps he is at peace with his life,


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## Adelais

Zman, my husband (the ex-adulterer and repeated liar in our marriage) bought the Ultimate Husband this summer when he realized that I was emotionally checked out and planning to leave him when I am finished homeschooling our children. Reb Bradley (author of the Ultimate Husband) understands that women's primary need is to feel safe. Reb's understanding is that when a faithful Christian wife leaves her husband after the children are raised, it is out of self defense and because she has given and given without feeling appreciated or cherished, and has nothing left to give. She leaves to preserve her own life. I cried when I listened to their free excerpt on their website called "Understanding the Female Mind." It described my feelings exactly. My husband has taken, and taken, and not listened to my heart or my needs for our entire marriage. He is kind and giving on his terms, not on mine. He listens with his ears, but not with his heart. Most important decisions are what he wants, not what I want. I have followed him everywhere, and bent over backwards to do my part, just to be taken for granted, and eventually replaced, but then he decided to take me back. (Blech!)

Reb understands the selfish nature of men, and how it doesn't match a woman's core needs to feel safe and protected. He says women by nature give, and men take. Over the years, some women have nothing left to give, and finally have to leave before they suffocate from the emptiness. My husband is beginning to change because of Reb's advice, but only time will tell if he is just acting, or really "gets it." 

Your wife is the cheater, however. She chose to cheat, you didn't "cause" or "make" her do it. Unless you are leaving out some key information, like you have been emotionally neglectful over the years, I don't know if listening to the Ultimate Husband will help your marriage, or if your bitter wife will care that you are even more kind and attentive to her needs and heart.

We are getting only your side of the story. It looks like you have been a great husband and overall great guy, and your wife is a beatch. If that is the case, no matter what you do, she won't change, that is just who she is.

If you have left out some information, and you have been neglectful, insensitive, she has felt betrayed, lonely, unsafe, yada, yada, yada, perhaps you can woo her back, by changing the things in yourself that caused her to back away protect herself by becoming numb to you.

You might suggest couple's counseling, with a very good counselor, so she can tell you her frustrations in a safe environment. You also need to tell her exactly how you feel. Let her know that if she refuses, or quits counseling, then you will file for divorce. It isn't fair to either of you for the both of you to be miserable. That is what made me have the courage to decide I will leave if my husband doesn't deal with his issues, and learn to be "One" with me by the time our youngest is finished schooling. I don't want to be miserable for the rest of my life.

A womans perspective on MMSP and NMMNG: My husband tried a bit of MMSP, and NMMNG on me, and all it did was push me away further and want to be away from him even more. I found being around him intolerable, and I found myself not sure I could last 6 years. Being an azz does not win a hurt wife's heart back, believe me!

At least now that he is using Reb Bradley's (Ultimate Husband) techniques and understanding, he is more pleasant to be around, and I have hope that he is becoming an empathetic person. Heck, he actually asked me to take a walk with him the other day, and he held my hand!

Have you read or listened to His Needs Her Needs? You might get that, and listen to it with your wife.

Reb sent me a free copy of one of his wife's CD's for wives. I haven't listened to it, because I don't want to hear (again) that I must submit and respect....been there, done that. If the husband does not love his wife as Christ loves the Church (his beloved children) to the point of being willing to die for her, all the wife gets is walked on and used some more.

Not trying to thread jack, but I thought my own experience might give you some insight.

P.S. The "It's not about the nail" video is funny and true, but it goes both ways. Guys can be the same way.


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## Zman

afab said:


> May I ask what do your children have to say about all this?


Here's my grown daughters most recent commments:

Oldest (late 20's, divorced after 1 year of marriage, husband cheated on her, fairly self sufficient in professional career) After spending an evening with my wife talking to each other: "Mom does a lot of complaining about dad but it is mostly materialistic in nature about what she doesn't have."

Youngest (mid 20's, married with 1 child & 1 on the way) "Dad, I'm really afraid that I may have inherited mom's characteristics and I might turn out like her."

Just curious - why are you interested in what they have to say?


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## tom67

Zman said:


> Here's my grown daughters most recent commments:
> 
> Oldest (late 20's, divorced after 1 year of marriage, husband cheated on her, fairly self sufficient in professional career) After spending an evening with my wife talking to each other: "Mom does a lot of complaining about dad but it is mostly materialistic in nature about what she doesn't have."
> 
> Youngest (mid 20's, married with 1 child & 1 on the way) "Dad, I'm really afraid that I may have inherited mom's characteristics and I might turn out like her."
> 
> Just curious - why are you interested in what they have to say?


Zman thanks for the extra info both daughters are pretty smart.
Oh and suggest ic for the youngest one so she DOESN'T end up like mom.
Get the two books NMMNG and MMSLP.
After what I went through and I may be a little younger than you (48) I just stick to my boundaries/morals after what I went through.
Just too old for the drama and my gf knows where I stand.
that's all.:smile2:


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## tom67

Your youngest might be asking for help also.
If they are barely making ends meet and if you have the means to pay for said ic, offer a few sessions if she doesn't want to hey she's an adult.
I would take the sil out and feel things out based on what he says but tread lightly.


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## aine

IMFarAboveRubies , I think many women on this site and others can identify with what you have written  about the giving and giving.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Zman, just pull the trigger and divorce already! Holy fvck! Guess what? Your wife cheated on you AT LEAST ONCE! She has probably cheated on you a number of times. Why the fvck do you need to talk to your pastor about your marital life? You obviously know that she's far from being a Christian wife. Your wife blows ass. Your kids are grown up. Get out now before you regret it and find yourself too old to live.


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## Zman

aine said:


> What about trying to work on bringing the romance, wining, dining, gifts, surprises back into your life. I just read recently something that a woman loves herself as much as she is loved, she is a reflection of her man.
> 
> 
> 
> Women are like flowers, they have to be attended to, pruned, cared for, watered, etc. etc. Sometimes especially after so many years of marriage, men forget the things they did when they were courting, they light up a woman's heart, make her feel young again, make her glow. Long term relationships become jaded, boring and predictable and even depressing. Why not try, it might take time, you have nothing to lose. (now it should work both ways but give it time). You should also consider reading the Four Seasons of Marriage see The Four Seasons of Marriage - Home
> 
> Talk to the wife about how much you love her, need her sexually, you cannot pretend nothing is wrong.


We regularly do the wining & dining, I buy her little things, I sometimes send her flirty texts (no responses) I regularly tell her about how well she cooks, I sit and listen to her vent and tell me things without trying to "fix it". I also help her cook sometimes. We go to the same gym together and I encourage her and specifically compliment areas of improvement, I regularly compliment her overall appearance and other specific areas of her body that might be exceptional on any given day. I am sure to hold hands with her in public and introduce her to others at public gatherings. I regularly gently touch her (non sexual) when we are working together or I come up behind her and give her a shoulder and neck massage. I make regular devoted efforts to complete tasks around the house that are important to her. She wants no kissing or intimate time so I have ceased to try after being rejected for so long. She says she has no libido and says she has no apologies about it and I will just have to accept she will be this way from here on out. 

I want to believe your advice would work and that I am just not doing something right. This could very well be true, however, most of the other posters here are giving me advice that is just the opposite. They say I should back off because I am just being a doormat for her. When I talk to other guys their wife gets or does things for them on their anniversary. Mine does not and is usually never happy with what I get or try to do for her. I am seriously considering not even acknowledging it next month. It just makes me feel like a fraud to celebrate a sham of a marriage. Kind of how she treats me wonderful at public/family gatherings but has disdain for me at home. (My children have noticed & commented to me in the past about how different she is in public) 



I definitely have made it clear to her that something is wrong and exactly what it is. I have done it the wrong way on occasion (a man builds up resentment after constant rejection while trying his best to please his wife) but also with kindness on others. Same results whether spending effort, money, time with her or not.

I do appreciate your advice and will continue in this direction and also work on being the best husband/person I can be while at the same time realizing that I need to simultaneously prepare to move on if there is no improvement in the marriage. Others have strongly advised that she will not change until I make a move to leave. Either way, doing all those fix up things around the house will either make her happier with me (I doubt it) or make it easier to sell.


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## Zman

tom67 said:


> Zman thanks for the extra info both daughters are pretty smart.
> Oh and suggest ic for the youngest one so she DOESN'T end up like mom.
> Get the two books NMMNG and MMSLP.
> After what I went through and I may be a little younger than you (48) I just stick to my boundaries/morals after what I went through.
> Just too old for the drama and my gf knows where I stand.
> that's all.:smile2:


Thanks Tom - I do have and read those books and think they are good. I have put some into practice. I find I get the most & best reactions from the Mrs when I publicly interact with other females my age. Other guys have also told me this is one of ways to get their attention. Mine has told me that she doesn't care because she knows what they would be getting but her behavior betrays her. I have outright asked her if she would be ok with me pursuing with another female what she refuses and she said no. 

Could you elaborate about "my gf knows where I stand", and was it difficult to find someone that is a good match for you. I am concerned about trading one set of problems for another.

Thanks!


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## tom67

Zman said:


> Thanks Tom - I do have and read those books and think they are good. I have put some into practice. I find I get the most & best reactions from the Mrs when I publicly interact with other females my age. Other guys have also told me this is one of ways to get their attention. Mine has told me that she doesn't care because she knows what they would be getting but her behavior betrays her. I have outright asked her if she would be ok with me pursuing with another female what she refuses and she said no.
> 
> Could you elaborate about "my gf knows where I stand", and was it difficult to find someone that is a good match for you. I am concerned about trading one set of problems for another.
> 
> Thanks!


Here...
After 15 yrs of marriage 4 plus years ago my ex had an affair I was a wreck of course.
I had good friends and family to slap me back into shape.
My gf is in her 30s and I've told her if she wants to get married I may not be the one.
My one daughter is about to be 18 I can only imagine what you went through-sarcasm0


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## Adelais

Zman, IMO you need to begin the process of separation and divorce. First you need to do it internally. Your wife had an EA, then she cheated, HAD SEX with a man for 3 YEARS! Now she treats you like you're a huge bother.

Are you happy being Plan B? You are and always will be Plan B for her, and that is why she is treating you the way she is.

Get your self respect back, and desire to be happy whether alone or with someone who really loves you. Divorce first, and then see what God has planned for you.

This might wake up your wife, it may not. But either way, you will not have a huge anchor around your neck anymore.


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## Zman

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Zman, IMO you need to begin the process of separation and divorce. First you need to do it internally. Your wife had an EA, then she cheated, HAD SEX with a man for 3 YEARS! Now she treats you like you're a huge bother.
> 
> Are you happy being Plan B? You are and always will be Plan B for her, and that is why she is treating you the way she is.
> 
> Get your self respect back, and desire to be happy whether alone or with someone who really loves you. Divorce first, and then see what God has planned for you.
> 
> This might wake up your wife, it may not. But either way, you will not have a huge anchor around your neck anymore.[/QUOTE
> 
> Yes, I am internally disconnecting. One thing I need to correct. I never found any proof of a PA and immediately, physically confronted both of them, got them together on video and blew up the EA. Kind of like a scene from "cheaters". So she could not deny what she did to our family / friends. Her own parents called it disgusting. It is certainly possible that she had sex with the OM but it would not have been over a 3 year time period. Possibly during a 1-2 month timeframe. The EA happened 3 years ago and she certainly denies anything more happened even with continued harassment from me even to this day. He was 14 years her senior. He was setting the trap for her by listening to her while I was at work. Of course he was retired and had plenty of time since his first wife left and didn't have to provide a living for mine. What a dirtbag POS. I have continued to monitor for any signs of contact but there has been no evidence.
> 
> Just curious about your opinion - Does a confirmed EA biblically give cause for divorce?


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## Adelais

Zman said:


> Just curious about your opinion - Does a confirmed EA biblically give cause for divorce?


Not sure if you area asking me or not, but I'll give it a go. Jesus said, "If you have so much as lusted after a woman, you have committed adultery with her in your heart." Of course, first one has to change the word "woman" for "man." And lust doesn't just mean sex, it means desire, want, etc. I believe that means yes. My counselor, Tom, who is a Pastor, says that there are three Biblical reasons for divorce and they all start with an A.

1. Adultery (emotional or physical)
2. Abandonment
3. Abuse (not specifically named in the Bible, however can be deduced by other passages...don't ask me which ones.)

The reason an EA can be considered adultery is the same reason looking at porn can be considered adultery. It is in the mind, which rules the body, and that is what Jesus was talking about.

My husband didn't have sex with OW, but he gave her his mind and his heart, which belonged to me. 6 years later and I am still crushed by it if I allow myself to think about it.

Perhaps you rug swept the EA because you thought, "It was only an EA." Years later you are still bothered about it, so it wasn't just an EA to you, it was adultery. You are not obligated to divorce. Forgiveness would be better. However, if the person who committed adultery is unrepentant, and likely to repeat the offense, I would not recommend sticking around for a repeat performance. Forgive, because they are a sick person who lacks self control, but protect yourself and get away from them.


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## afab

One more question 'how do your daughters get on with their mother'?


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## redwing_10

Zman: Sorry, late to the thread. Your situation sounds very similar to mine. Wife unhappy, no physical affection. I came to the conclusion that you can't fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed. That happiness and contentment comes from within, and no outside thing or situation will fix that.


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## Zman

afab said:


> One more question 'how do your daughters get on with their mother'?


They usually get along ok but from my perspective they try to stay in her good graces so they can use her for what she can do for them. I don't see much reciprocation. There are things that they do that gets her extremely upset that are by products of her going over my head when they were young and I attempted to discipline them. The results have come back to bite her. 

There are times when either one of them gets on a no speaking terms but it usually ends when they need help from her and she is so lonely for friends that she wants to have a friend. 

I think the difference between my interaction with our daughters and hers is that they never know what has caused a blow up with their mom or what to do to correct the problem. With me, they know why I am upset with something and exactly how to put things back on track between us. My wife has a lot of negativity when criticizing them about how they look and act. Unfortunately her mother treated her this way. With daughters I am very aware of their self image and always try to compliment them. I think they respond much better to positive reinforcement. Of course they need to improve in areas but I don't think a lot of critical negativity will get them enthused to do better.


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## Zman

redwing_10 said:


> Zman: Sorry, late to the thread. Your situation sounds very similar to mine. Wife unhappy, no physical affection. I came to the conclusion that you can't fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed. That happiness and contentment comes from within, and no outside thing or situation will fix that.


Thanks for your input redwing. I couldn't agree more. Could elaborate on your situation and what you have done at this point in time to deal with it.

Also, do you believe that you had part in your wife's unhappiness or non affection attitude toward you?


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## Zman

Latest update - A little on the positive side. I hope this is not TMI but I am seeking your approval / disapproval / criticisms of my actions and take of the situation.

Friday nite we did our workouts at the same time. (not together but at the same time - me with the guys / her with the other females) We drive home together, stop at the market and pick up something to cook for dinner that is her favorite. I share in the prep and we eat together at home. Wine and a movie together and relax. I convince her to at least sit together on the sofa for the last half of the show. After the wine and movie and some cuddling she gets up and starts to get ready for bed. I make a move and she tries to brush me off but I stick to my guns and let her know in no uncertain terms (nothing abusive) that she is going to be fvcked by me there and now. Believe it or not she reluctantly allowed me to have my way with her. I felt like a wild animal at this point and very much enjoyed giving it to her hard and in different positions. Its hard to know what she was really thinking but she had no complaints and seems somewhat cheerful afterward. Later she finished getting ready for bed and went to sleep in her separate bedroom. That night I couldn't get the thoughts of her body and us doing it out of my mind and was ready for another round the next morning. Surprising she did not stop me this time either. So a recent historical record 2 times in the same weekend! The downside for me is that she just wasn't into it because she says she has no libido. 

The remainder of the weekend we worked at the house together but she still emits a cloud of negativity. Overall I think I could thrive with about twice this amount of sex per week but this is a start. My willingness to work with her on this is that I am physically attracted to her and am afraid that most other females of her age that I would be attracted to, that are available, and would be interested in me are few and far between and likely will have similar low libido or worse issues.


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## afab

Thanks for your reply. I suppose what goes on between you and your wife isn't hidden from your daughters. I am sure they also take sides. I was just wondering why you dont use them to help you.


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## turnera

The low libido is a correlation of how she feels about YOU. If she sees you as a hot item, if she sees that other women will want you, if you continue to 'take her' (good job, by the way), you will start to rise back up in her mind to the level you were at when you were dating. Get in even better shape, let her see other women checking you out at the gym, let her see you enjoying time with your guy friends, 'take her' every now and then, and even consider spicing things up in the bedroom. That comment about riding her hard or whatever...that's not usually what gets women's libido back up - seducing her, listening to her talk about her day/dreams/problems/ideas, making her feel beautiful (in actions, not words), giving her amazing orgasms, letting her see you into her for her mind and not her body (women tend to think over time that you just want them as a vessel to put your penis into), wanting to fool around and NOT then have intercourse (shows her you just want to be WITH her, not just screw her)...these are the kind of things that will raise her libido.


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## Zman

*Re: Find out what your partner is doing!*



mooh77 said:


> Hack into your partners whatapp, facebook or any other social network account without he/she knowing and read conversations, old and new messages including deleted messages, see images and audio messages.
> contact me on: [email protected]
> +12562995979


I do have access to her accounts unknown to her and have checked them from time to time for the last 3 years. I have not found any suspicious activity. She does not exhibit any suspicious or protective behavior when it comes to me handling of her electronic devices and I don't believe she has the expertise to go real deep with trying to hide her tracks, otherwise, I would not have been able to find her out 3 years ago and shut her down. Currently she has very little unaccountable time on her hands. If she does have something going on, on the side, I have made it very clear that it is over between us and I will so no mercy in my handling of the situation. I have mentioned to her on more than on occasion that if she wants a boyfriend that it would be far better for her to divorce me first. Actually there have been times that I have encouraged her to make that move so she could truly "be happy" with her life. In fact I have told her that it is a tough burden for me to bear knowing that I am the reason behind another person's continued misery. I really don't believe I can be held accountable for another person's overall happiness but she can sure make me feel that way at times. She hasn't taken me up on this because I think deep down she knows that the key to her misery lies within her own mind.


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## Zman

afab said:


> Thanks for your reply. I suppose what goes on between you and your wife isn't hidden from your daughters. I am sure they also take sides. I was just wondering why you dont use them to help you.


You are correct. They are well aware the situation. I have told them from my perspective that the marriage is a sham in the affection department and they sympathize with me. Seeing that they have used the term "psycomom" on occasion, they are well aware of the havoc that can come their way should they side with me. I really don't want them to have to live in the "black hole" their mom puts people in when she perceives them as "all bad". They have their own lives to live so I really don't know what they could do to help me in this area.


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## Zman

turnera said:


> The low libido is a correlation of how she feels about YOU. If she sees you as a hot item, if she sees that other women will want you, if you continue to 'take her' (good job, by the way), you will start to rise back up in her mind to the level you were at when you were dating. Get in even better shape, let her see other women checking you out at the gym, let her see you enjoying time with your guy friends, 'take her' every now and then, and even consider spicing things up in the bedroom. That comment about riding her hard or whatever...that's not usually what gets women's libido back up - seducing her, listening to her talk about her day/dreams/problems/ideas, making her feel beautiful (in actions, not words), giving her amazing orgasms, letting her see you into her for her mind and not her body (women tend to think over time that you just want them as a vessel to put your penis into), wanting to fool around and NOT then have intercourse (shows her you just want to be WITH her, not just screw her)...these are the kind of things that will raise her libido.


This is some of the best encouraging advise! Thanks for taking the time to respond. Yes, I am trying to up my game in the listening to her talk and express her thoughts without giving advise. Just confirming that I am hearing what she is saying. Working on the other things you mention as well. Even if nothing I do helps with her it should put me in a better position for the future if it comes time to pull the plug. It's all good - thanks again!


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## tech-novelist

Zman said:


> Aine - You're right. I'm imperfect and no doubt have contributed to the situation. Over the years I have been willing to work on the areas where I am lacking but it never seemed to be to her satisfaction. Like I mentioned in my original post, the counselor we saw together gave us homework assignments. I really tried to work with her but she just would not participate and this was quite a few years ago when we still had children at home. That's why the counselor called me in to tell me he just could not go any further.
> 
> Churches have traditionally taught that if the husband treats the wife properly "as Christ loves the church" she will have respect and love her husband. I certainly would not disagree with this but the problem is we are not perfect like Christ and even if we are trying to be like Christ, it doesn't mean our wives will respond in kind. For example - my wife's mother became ill and she was headed out the door to go see her. I asked her if she would like to pray together for her mother before she left the house. Her response to me was "is this some kind of joke?" I said no and that if she felt that way I would just pray for her mother on my own. I just don't understand her thought process.


I think it is interesting that Adam couldn't get Eve to respect his authority. And he had direct authorization from God! So what chance does any other man have with a rebellious wife?


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## Zman

technovelist said:


> I think it is interesting that Adam couldn't get Eve to respect his authority. And he had direct authorization from God! So what chance does any other man have with a rebellious wife?


I see what you're saying but I think Eve disrespected God directly and Adam disrespected God by going along with Eve. Either way they both sinned against God.

My take in general is that the wife is supposed to follow the husband unless he contradicts God. At the same time the husband is suppose to take into account the feelings and wants of the wife and to lead with her best interests in mind.

God requires husbands to follow him and lead the wife with unselfish love. He will hold the wife accountable for not following a husband that leads her in this manner. If there is a disagreement between the husband and wife in a particular matter the husband should do his best to resolve it in the wife's favor. However there will be times that the husband will need to decide against his wife's wishes for the best outcome of the family. The wife will at those times need to respect the decision and support it even if it turned out not to be the best decision. If it turns out later not to have been the best decision the husband should be willing to admit his mistake and do his best to not repeat it. The wife should be willing to forgive him and realize that he is not perfect and was doing what he thought best for both of them.

I don't think we can effectively "make" our wives respect us. We can only earn their respect with Godly leadership. This is similar to the Bible saying that a wife can win over an ungodly husband by her godly actions. If a wife fails to respect a Godly husband, she will be held accountable for her actions. Neither husband or wife are perfect and each should be willing to give grace to the other and help each other when they stumble. This does not mean that continued disrespect should be tolerated by either party. 

The hard part is being a Godly husband. That is really the only thing we can work on.

Do you think my assessment is correct?


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## tech-novelist

Zman said:


> I see what you're saying but I think Eve disrespected God directly and Adam disrespected God by going along with Eve. Either way they both sinned against God.
> 
> My take in general is that the wife is supposed to follow the husband unless he contradicts God. At the same time the husband is suppose to take into account the feelings and wants of the wife and to lead with her best interests in mind.
> 
> God requires husbands to follow him and lead the wife with unselfish love. He will hold the wife accountable for not following a husband that leads her in this manner. If there is a disagreement between the husband and wife in a particular matter the husband should do his best to resolve it in the wife's favor. However there will be times that the husband will need to decide against his wife's wishes for the best outcome of the family. The wife will at those times need to respect the decision and support it even if it turned out not to be the best decision. If it turns out later not to have been the best decision the husband should be willing to admit his mistake and do his best to not repeat it. The wife should be willing to forgive him and realize that he is not perfect and was doing what he thought best for both of them.
> 
> I don't think we can effectively "make" our wives respect us. We can only earn their respect with Godly leadership. This is similar to the Bible saying that a wife can win over an ungodly husband by her godly actions. If a wife fails to respect a Godly husband, she will be held accountable for her actions. Neither husband or wife are perfect and each should be willing to give grace to the other and help each other when they stumble. This does not mean that continued disrespect should be tolerated by either party.
> 
> The hard part is being a Godly husband. That is really the only thing we can work on.
> 
> Do you think my assessment is correct?


Yes, as far as it goes. But there are problems you can't solve, and a rebellious wife is one of those problems, unless she changes her ways voluntarily.


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## Zman

This is very true!


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## Zman

Three days ago I shaved off my facial hair. The Mrs recoils in horror whenever I brush against her with my beard. On the very few occasions we have had sex if I brush against her neck or face she acts as if she has been tasered. Today I also got my usual haircut. On the way to the gym she asked me if I got a haircut with a face and body expression of disgust. She then noticed (3 days later) that I had shaved off my beard and became even more disgusted with my appearance. She said I should grow my beard back. I said why does it matter. Her answer was you look better with it. I just left it at that but in my mind am thinking "She likes the way I look better with facial hair but won't let me touch her with it. If I shave it off, she is disgusted with the way I look and doesn't want to be around me. What the hell is a man suppose to do?

The next thing is I ordered and was wearing a new high tech Nike workout shirt that I thought looked pretty good. It wasn't skin tight but was just a little loose like she normally says looks like a good fit on me. I asked her if she liked it. The answer was no. 

When we got to the gym I was talking to one of the 20 something females when she looked at me and said "you got a haircut didn't you?" I said yes and she said yea it looks really good. Was she lying? I don't know. Then after my workout a 40 something female who was coming in noticed me and came over to me and asked "what have you been doing? You look amazing!" I am usually wearing loose fitting tshirts but this new shirt is a bit more form fitting and she was noticing my midsection and how much tighter it is. She even said I should start going shirtless. Was she lying? I don't know but both of these women made me feel better about myself. My wife was not near enough to hear any of this.

I think I am getting more and more motivated to at least start talking to a divorce attorney to see what is going to happen if I leave.


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## LBHmidwest

You sound exactly like a friend of mine. Great guy, I'll bet other women check you out, wife shops at will, she ruins friendships, employee and family relationships. Instead of all the world is an oyster the whole world is gravel to her.

To me, it sounds like your wife has one nickname for you.

Personal Bank


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## Zman

LBHmidwest said:


> You sound exactly like a friend of mine. Great guy, I'll bet other women check you out, wife shops at will, she ruins friendships, employee and family relationships. Instead of all the world is an oyster the whole world is gravel to her.
> 
> To me, it sounds like your wife has one nickname for you.
> 
> Personal Bank


Actually she would complain that her personal bank doesn't have enough funds in it to make her happy!

Curious - do you have any insight on how your friend is dealing with his situation?

Thanks!


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## LBHmidwest

He finally.... told her no more. They've lost contact with one child and most of his family. He doesn't believe in divorce religiously but he did tell her that either counseling and she changes some big things in big ways or he can't live like he was anymore.

It got significantly better, they backslide and then he reaffirms that this isn't a negotiation anymore.

Funny... he doesn't make enough for her either and she drives a new mercedes gl450 (I think that's the model like I really care). You think he doesn't make enough?


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## Zman

It seems in these cases that the women have some type of disorder. They are ungrateful and unhappy. No one and no thing will ever fulfill them. Mine wakes up everyday to read facebook and make herself even more miserable with all the things and doings of others that she doesn't have or get to do. She never compares her situation to the 99 percent of the worlds population that are worse off than her. She does not say good morning to me and does not want to talk to me. She finds fault with a magnifying glass. I have actually had her call me in the middle of a hard working day to complain that the sun visor in the car made a squeaking sound when she flipped it down. Really! - the sun visor made a squeak and your life must be made so perfect that you have to call me in the middle of work to tell me I need to this take care of this horrible tragedy in your life. 

I am just supposed to leave her alone and go to work like a good little boy. She does not greet me when I get home and just wants me to leave her alone, go to bed in my own room and stay the hell away from her. It is as if they are trying to withdraw from an addictive drug and any attempt to engage them in conversation or normal husband / wife interaction puts them over the edge. As far as trying to make her happy it is like the King and Queen have called me in to entertain their little brat child that refuses to be happy about anything. 

I believe they actually hate themselves and are trying to heal the pain by looking for an external solution. Better hair, clothes, body,house, living condition, husband, social status, etc. For the husband it is like trying to fill a bucket with a big hole in the bottom. They refuse to take responsibility for there own condition and will blame everyone around them. Mine tries to project her negativity on to me and get upset with me because I am so "negative". She often rewrites history in her own mind to alleviate her own contribution to her condition. It is though they compare themselves to what they have read in a fantasy novel and are upset that their real life is not the same all the while doing nothing to contribute to making it any better. If the husband makes a sincere effort to correct any legitimate issues he has, there will be no recognition of the changes for the better and they will just come up with another area of dissatisfaction. 


For about the first 15 years of my marriage she had me convinced that ALL the marriage problems were my fault. I no longer believe this to be the case and have finally gotten to the point that I want to leave as I feel I have exhausted most of the options for seeing any change in her behavior.  I have seen the longer term results with her mom and I don't think I want to go there. It only gets worse.


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## Chaparral

Her main disorder is just doesn't love you. The way she's built is the way she's built. I would think you simply lose in her mind because at this point your second best compared to her ex affair partner.

You can't make a person happy.


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## Chaparral

Look up and do the 180.


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## turnera

do the 180

stop giving her your money; start putting it into a new savings account

keep working out

start hanging around with your friends more

start new hobbies/adventures (that include women)

let her SEE you doing all these things

If that doesn't get her to wake up and notice you, SHE IS GONE and you're better off without her.


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## LBHmidwest

Funny..... my buddies wife calls him all the time when we are on fishing trips or whatever about the dumbest stuff. He gets home, it's like he's dead.

I don't envy you except one thing. YOU can walk away and you will be way way way happier almost guaranteed unless you have some deep abiding love for her I'm not feeling reading your writing.

On the other hand, unless she's a great actress, will find dating the most miserable experience in history.

Would you even CONSIDER going out with her on a first date? Would you want your son to marry someone like her?


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## Zman

Update: Over the last few weeks we have been getting along pretty good and she has been accommodating me with duty sex pretty much anytime I wanted it. One night she even agreed to give me a BJ let me go down on her and give her an orgasm. No, I'm not exactly fulfilled by emotionally disconnected sex, no kissing, touching, foreplay, that is only slightly better than a blow up doll but I'm also trying to understand that in her post menopausal condition it is a herculean feat for her to get to this level. I have tried to at least give her credit for doing the best she can for me even though I have tried my best to explain to her that we both very much need to have a sexual connection for emotional and physical well being. She refuses to believe it. I think that is because females are not wired that way. 

Fast forward to the past 10 days. She has shut down and is in a "I'm all stressed out, don't even think about sex mood". She is not working out, drinking more, watching violent movies and appears to me to be in some form of depression. After 3 or 4 attempts to have sex, separated by at least a day each, during which I was taking care of myself numerous times just to keep myself in check, she turned me down every time. As you can imagine, after a few good weeks of better than nothing sex I became quite frustrated with this change in behavior. Part of my frustration was due in part to thinking we might be going in a good direction. I explained to her that her rejection of me trying to connect with her was just not acceptable. In years past, I might have gotten verbally upset due to my natural internal tension but now that I am on testosterone, I have much better control in these situations. I can attest that natural testosterone increases sex drive but it also has a calming effect. I was able to just leave the house and go to the gym and then hang out with some friends.

Anyway, I had it all planned out to complete one more home project on the list that day and we were scheduled to go out to dinner with couple friends. Needless to say, I made no attempt to work at home and had no intention of keeping the dinner date with the married couple friends in my state of mind. I just have a real hard time being with my wife in public while she is being so fake about our relationship. I did call to let the guy half of our friends to let him know that we were having a problem and that I could just not bring myself to be with my wife and be all fake around them. He got it and arranged for the 2 wives to go without us. I also get a text from the wife about how I stood her up with the dinner arrangements and what would they think about me having a "temper tantrum" for being turned down for sex. So me being upset due to numerous sexual rejections and calmly leaving the house is now considered a "temper tantrum". I assured her that they would understand and would still enjoy her company without me.

Later when I got home, I eventually confronted her with our overall situation. She has no attraction for me and sees no possibility of it ever improving. I told her I understand, but I am not able to accept no intimate connection with her. I told her that she is an attractive woman and should have zero problems attracting a fine man that she could connect with and be happy. I said I really miss just even having a female that I talk with and would like to at least be free to date other women without going behind her back. I suggested that we get the ball rolling to start the process to dissolve the marriage due to the state it is in. She wants to wait until our second grandchild is born in the spring and then go away by herself to think about it. I told her I intend to get started before then due to all that will need to be done. 

Since we talked I have been reading a lot about post menopausal women and it fits her perfectly. In this condition, everything in their mind is negativity on steroids and every moment and event from the day of marriage and into the future is seen in a hopeless, negative viewpoint up to the point that she never loved me and she should have never married me. I have a friend whose wife recently left him and his children and divorced him due to the same scenario. He tried everything he could to reconcile. Even the kids hate their mom now. Seems that when they get into this stage the hormones change and they become resentful of having spent their lives raising children and caring for their husband to the neglect of themselves. The pendulum swings to the opposite and they become totally self absorbed and will leave their own kids and husband to seek out what they have missed out on. It appears to be a very common situation and, unfortunately, I found almost no situations like mine that had a happy ending. It seems that most divorces occur during this stage and are primarily initiated by the wife. I think mine just wants me to be perceived as the bad guy and has driven me to be the initiator. From what I can tell, the only options are to accept living in a highly negative, sexless, passionless marriage for the rest of my life or leave. Even the ultra caring, understanding, self sacrificing husbands don't seem to fare much better except in the most rare cases. From my understanding of actual experience and reading the experience of others, this phenomenon is similar to a type of sinister, mind altering chemical in their system that projects an unrealistic fantasy life that they missed out on due to "marrying the wrong person" and being held prisoner in a life they supposedly had no control over. They will then destroy the hearts and souls of their family in an effort to find this unobtainable fantasy and be a part of it before it's too late. I've got to believe that chemicals in our food and more importantly the American culture of "I'm just supposed to be happy about everything all the time and it's someone else's responsibility to make me happy" mindset has a lot to do with it. 

I am positive that not all women go to this extreme but it does seem to be a common occurrence. I am hoping to eventually connect with a woman that takes responsibility for her own happiness and would like to share her life with me so we both have a higher level of life and companionship.


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## turnera

Some women do get that way, usually because all THEIR needs are being met, so they become neglectful. Your best bet is to do the 180 for now while you make your plans. Whatever needs you were meeting for her - financial, emotional, home stuff...stop doing them. Start acting like you're already divorced. It's the last-ditch effort to show her what she's going to be missing. It's a fair bet she has NO idea you'll just disappear from her life. Show her NOW, while you're still together, what she's been taking for granted.


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## Marc878

turnera said:


> Some women do get that way, usually because all THEIR needs are being met, so they become neglectful. Your best bet is to do the 180 for now while you make your plans. Whatever needs you were meeting for her - financial, emotional, home stuff...stop doing them. Start acting like you're already divorced. It's the last-ditch effort to show her what she's going to be missing. It's a fair bet she has NO idea you'll just disappear from her life. Show her NOW, while you're still together, what she's been taking for granted.


An excellent perspective from a females point of view. You'd be wise to follow it. Not halfway either. Go all out. You may be surprised on the results.

As far as if it doesn't work out I'd tell her you're on my time line, yours doesn't count anymore.


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## syhoybenden

The cow's stopped giving you milk? Stop feeding the cow.

Give the cow a choice ... dairy or abattoir.


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## Zman

Valentines Update 2016

A word of caution before the update. About 2 weeks I got myself banned from posting temporarily. We had a 5 day trip out of town and stayed in a honeymoon cabin and things seemed going well on the trip. After returning home I was daydreaming about my wife in a sexual way so I wrote her a valentines love/fantasy story and posted it with any slang words censored out. I wanted to see from a women's viewpoint if it would be inappropriate to give to wife. Unfortunately it must have been too explicit for the moderators and I was banned. Even though I have read similarly explicit descriptions of sexual situations on this site, there must be an invisible line that I crossed. I am sorry that this happened so just a heads up. Now on to the update.

Valentines day weekend: Wife refusing sex multiple times during weekend with no kids in which I cooked for her and chilled out watching movie of her choice with her. I asked her on second day "so you're telling me no?" That's right! she replied. I told her that one time a month was just not going to cut it with me and what was her idea of adequate. She could not answer. I used to get really upset about now but I have really been working on emotional control. I brought up the fact that I had just been to a marriage counselor to have our situation evaluated by an older female counselor. I wanted her to bring any of my shortcomings to light and see where I might be contributing to our dysfunctional marriage. She told me that she thought I needed to speak with a divorce attorney due to how my wife's constant negativity was draining the life out of me. I asked her since she was only hearing my side of the story, how did she know that I wasn't mistreating my wife. She asked me, "Is your wife trying in any way to get help with herself or trying to meet you halfway with trying to restore the marriage?" The answer was no. She told me there was a very, very, thin glimmer of light in the situation but that if I had any fondness for her left, it would soon be gone so I should get with an attorney asap. I already had the appointment set up. My wife said she is ready for me to get the divorce in progress but she doesn't want to tell anyone until it is completed. 

Here is an odd riddle for anyone that might explain it to me. My wife treats me with contempt. She hates me, our business, our home, where we live, etc, etc. She doesn't really even care to talk to me one on one. I told her that I would like to work it out that so that I could buy out her half of the house and business. This should provide a fairly nice stream of income for her into the foreseeable future. This would allow her to escape all of the above that she so despises and make a new life anywhere she wants. She is quite attractive and I told her that when she becomes single she would have in short order a list of men wanting to sweep her off her feet, buy her the house of her dreams, take her on trips around the world, and treat her with all the things and love that would make her happy and that shes says I will never be able to do. The odd thing is that for the remainder of the weekend she just seemed so miserable and angry she just stayed inside a dark house sleeping and watching on demand movies while the weather outside was sunny and bright. Seems to me she was just given the ticket to what she has been wanting for years now. She has been wanting us to divorce for years and now that it seems we are really close to this happening she seems miserable. The other odd thing is that no matter how painful I think this process is going to be, my spirits seem pretty good and upbeat. Kind of like a big burden is going to lifted off of me even though I may lose more than her in the process. I was out & about for the weekend enjoying the good weather. 

I will see the attorney this coming week to see how we can dissolve the marriage. 

Any words of advice at this point? Thanks for your past advice and concerns!

BTW - This guy's material really hit home with me and is probably the best, most real life experience relationship advice I have come across. I have mentioned it to some other guys having women problems and they got a lot out of it as well. It made us realize how out of touch with modern day relationships we are. We are just handling it all wrong and are getting bad results. 

www.reignitethefire.net


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## *Deidre*

Sorry you are going through this. 

Not sure, but she could be seriously depressed, but think you have given this quite the valiant effort, and it's time to enjoy your own life, now. You can't make her happy, only she can admit to herself what is wrong, and go from there. It might be a hard next step, but this relationship has really been unhealthy for you, and think you deserve to find some happiness in this life. Prayers for you and her, as well. May she find happiness, too.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Zman said:


> Here is an odd riddle for anyone that might explain it to me. My wife treats me with contempt.


What riddle?

Go look up the symptoms of a Female Mid-Life Crisis.

As for the words you're hearing? She'll make up whatever flits into her head space and decide that's the truth about you. Her previous life is over, and now you're just a person hanging around in her house and she'll say or make up _anything_ to get rid of you.

Don't feel that it is personal though, or that she has abused you specifically; lots of guys get hit with this after wasting all the years of their life trying to do well by their "partner" and the family the two of you have. Now she has everything she wants, and the kids are of an age that her hormones don't want to look after them - you're just in her way. That phase of _your_ life is now over.

(for a little while you could buy her interest in other things, but the basic truth can't be avoided; to her you aren't needed, so you're just a complication to cost time and hassle <backdated too>)


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## Lostinthought61

do you still have the evidence of her cheating?


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## Zman

Yes, I still have the video and phone records. I don't have any new evidence that anything is still going on but at this point it really doesn't matter as I am not trying to save the marriage any longer. It would have to be a miracle repentance on her part and even then I don't think I could take her back. I recently told her I still don't believe her side of that story and she got upset with me bringing it up. I told her I will bring it up anytime I feel like it since she has never shown any true remorse and would probably like to get back with him if she thought I wouldn't find out. 

On another note I have recently read a Pastor's comments about wives rejecting their husbands sexually. If there is no good reason for it, and it is a chronic issue, it is considered a sin of sexual immorality no less than infidelity.


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## EVG39

Zman, You don't need anything more, everyone including your wife knows what you need to do next. Right now your marriage is laying there like a wounded animal and you are the one that everybody is expecting to put it out of its misery. Whip out your weapon, in this case a lawyer, and make everyone relieved. Sorry to be so blunt but you know this is true don't you?


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## Zman

EVG39 - Yes, hard but true. It has most definitely helped to put my thoughts out there to those here. I have an appointment with attorney this week to get the ball rolling. We are both in agreement that she is not going to ever be in a loving relationship with me again. I may be posting more info / questions once the crap starts hitting the fan. I have a small support group of guys that I talk with regularly and those here also have encouraged me through this trying time in my life. I will update as things progress. I am staying upbeat and visualizing my life once I get through this. If it is anything like letting go of one of my longtime negative employees last year I should be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks to All


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## turnera

Since she's the one who wants out, I would tell my lawyer to try to get out of giving her much of anything. And I'm glad you're divorcing. You need a better partner.

But not any time soon!


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## Zman

Spot Dog, 

You sir or madam are the best responder I have had to date. I took you up on the Mid Life Crisis search and uncovered information that no one here or in counselling has brought up. This IS the problem and as you can see in the attached explanation, the deep rooted cause started with her childhood and I have exacerbated it by not knowing how to respond to the time bomb that exploded. The attachment describes my situation like white on rice. Unfortunately, it looks like it may be well too late to fix this. 

As of tomorrow I will be making my initial visit to an attorney. Funny thing is that after expressing utter hatred toward everything about the house we live in and agreeing to let me buy her half out, she has reneged on this idea and wants to force the sale to get me out. Does anyone know if she can do that if I agree to pay her for her half? She does not want to live here, any way shape or form but doesn't want me to buy her out? What's going on?


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## turnera

What's going on is that she's just mad. Mad at life, mad at you, mad at the world, fed up that she's never going to get the fairy tale life she grew up expecting. That's for her to deal with. Nothing you can do about it. 

As for what she can do, that's something you have to let the lawyer guide you in. Best money you'll ever spend, to get it done right.


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