# Wife using vibrator



## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Several years ago (maybe before kids) I bought a small vibrator to use on my wife during sex. She said it didn't seem to do much for her, so we put in her nightstand and left it.

We've been married 23 years. Early in our marriage, sex was 2-3 times a week. Our sexual frequency dropped to once a week after kid #1, same after kid #2. Over the last few years, we've gotten to about once a month. This is not by my choice.

A couple of weeks ago, I thought about the vibrator and maybe getting new batteries and trying it again. When I went to check on what type of battery, I noticed there seemed to be new batteries. Vibration was stronger than what I remembered. I saw the old batteries still laying in the drawer.
I've figured out she's using it about once a week the last couple of weeks.
I'm frustrated because I've nearly given up asking her to have sex and just let it happen whenever and be content. I'm confused why she would do this when she knows I'm willing at any time.

Sex discussions have been difficult in the past. I've tried talking to her about our frequency before and she just won't sat much. I've tried to ask if I've done something to turn her away or need to do something different and she'll answer with "no" or "I don't know." Most of the time, if I ask to have sex she says no. She'll say she's not in the mood or too tired.

Should I tell her I know she's using the vibrator and ask questions? I always thought the idea of her masturbating is arousing, but, since I found this out I've been confused and hurt.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Absolutely ask here what’s up! Ask her if you can use it on her. Take charge.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

The vibrator has nothing to do with you. It’s just an easy outlet. You need to have a heart to heart with your wife about your love life in an honest open way. The vibrator is not part of that discussion.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Paging @dadstartingover this guy needs your book.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> The vibrator has nothing to do with you. It’s just an easy outlet. You need to have a heart to heart with your wife about your love life in an honest open way. The vibrator is not part of that discussion.


I have tried in the past. How do you do that when the other person won't open up? I just end up feeling like an interrogator.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

well, if she is using the vibrator instead of your penis, what does it tell you?


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> The vibrator has nothing to do with you. It’s just an easy outlet. You need to have a heart to heart with your wife about your love life in an honest open way. The vibrator is not part of that discussion.


How is the vibrator not part of the discussion? That she's using it shows she has more sex drive than she's led me to believe.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> I have tried in the past. How do you do that when the other person won't open up? I just end up feeling like an interrogator.


One of the more difficult things in a situation like this is to get your partner to understand the seriousness of it. I was once in a position much like yours. It will be difficult to get your wife to understand that sexuality is the way you feel loved and that being starved for it is truly a risk to marriage. I read about 30 books and used this forum to come to a better understanding of myself, my wife, and human sexuality. I will tell you this with no uncertainty: If you don’t change yourself and your willingness to end the marriage over this.... nothing will change. You can’t bluff your way around it. You fundamentally need to change what you accept and what you will not. A sexless marriage is not acceptable. My recommendation is given predicated upon the assumption you are a good man to your wife. Once my wife understood the expectation and that I wasn’t bluffing one bit ... the sex flood gate opened and for the past 5 years I’ve had more than I can handle. You will have to give your wife the pleasurable meaningful experience of sex ..... not the bullchit stuff.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> I have tried in the past. How do you do that when the other person won't open up? I just end up feeling like an interrogator.


The key is light hearted, short sentences, then listening, and that you think it's great there's new interest in sex life.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> How is the vibrator not part of the discussion? That she's using it shows she has more sex drive than she's led me to believe.


Because that will come off as accusation. Don’t do that. It’s the opposite of open meaningful dialogue. It will also make her want to hide or be shamed about it which is exactly what you DONT want


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Those Bob's, such lucky things they are.
To be so near and dear.
To be one with Dear.
.................................................................


A possibility might be...

She knows of your concern, and she is prepping herself, trying to _get back her groove._
By reinvigorating her long dormant, her dry groove.

One would hope.

I would not mention the vibrator.
I would ask to go down on her.

For old-times sake, for spits and giggles.


_The Typist-_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> How is the vibrator not part of the discussion? That she's using it shows she has more sex drive than she's led me to believe.


Dude, she’s always had a sex drive, just not for YOU. That’s what you need to focus on.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> She is already operating in this mode. She knows she's satisfying her urges with Bob and now he knows it. Put it on the table and talk about it. Maybe, it's just quicker or more stimulating or he sucks in bed. Whatever. Don't make the vibrator the elephant in the room - that honor belongs to the fact that she doesn't want more frequent sex with husband.


Do you think he can be that direct on the front side of the issue? Maybe hold that conversation for a little later? I don’t know because I can use a sex toy and still want my wife instantly so maybe my particular view is clouded .... but I’m not a woman


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

DudeInProgress said:


> Dude, she’s always had a sex drive, just not for YOU. That’s what you need to focus on.


Let’s hold off on that for a guy who hasn’t said anything about his wife having the hots somewhere else. Maybe she is just a bored and tired house mom and nothing more.

This guy might have an actual chance


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> spits and giggles.
> _The Typist-_


That made me chuckle I’ll admit 😂


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

If this helps, W and I use toys, different vibrators time to time, very regularly because I like to use them on her and she likes it.

We have sex min 4 times a week, more mostly, and if she wants to use them without me ever if I'm working late here and there I have never had a problem with that. In fact the more the merrier because we have always communicated easily re sexual activity and everything together has created a very frequent and high quality of sex for us. We even go to adult stores together time to time.

Just saying, this can be a positive. 

I'd get her a newer toy, one 5 or so years old may not have all the new features current models have.

Good luck!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Sorry OP but I have to ask. Have you been here before asking about this issue? 

If not, there are older threads about this that might be helpful to you to peruse as well.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> Let’s hold off on that for a guy who hasn’t said anything about his wife having the hots somewhere else. Maybe she is just a bored and tired house mom and nothing more.
> 
> This guy might have an actual chance


Must think positive, must think positive....

At least until it's obvious to not....


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Those Bob's, such lucky things they are.
> To be so near and dear.
> To be one with Dear.
> .................................................................
> ...


I'd just go down on her without asking, with a new toy hidden at hand and during her throes start adding toy action.
Bear in mind the new toy needs to be a quality one, perhaps g spot angled, and you having got to know the controls before using it.


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## Trustless Marriage (Mar 1, 2021)

Simple. Take the vibrator while she is away. She either will ask for it back or ask for sex.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> LOL. This is a little later. He gets nowhere when he _tries_ to talk to her.
> 
> If his wife had your sex drive, he wouldn't be here. She's coasting, she's been coasting and she knows it.


Fair enough answer 👍


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Trustless Marriage said:


> Simple. Take the vibrator while she is away. She either will ask for it back or ask for sex.


Now, I'd buy two more better vibrators with a sexy card, so she has a choice o vibrators to use, and put them the drawer for her to peruse when reaching in the toy drawer. 

Just to see what happens.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> Sex discussions have been difficult in the past. I've tried talking to her about our frequency before and she just won't sat much. I've tried to ask if I've done something to turn her away or need to do something different and she'll answer with "no" or "I don't know." Most of the time, if I ask to have sex she says no. She'll say she's not in the mood or too tired.
> 
> Should I tell her I know she's using the vibrator and ask questions? I always thought the idea of her masturbating is arousing, but, since I found this out I've been confused and hurt.


1. She’s not attracted to you and isn’t interested in sex with you. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a sex drive, she just doesn’t want it with you. Sorry, I know that sucks to realize, but that’s the really of your situation.

The vibrator isn’t the problem, it just provided clarity to your situation.

2. You don’t ask for sex, you just initiate it. Women want strong, confident men who lead the interaction.

3. The question now is what you’re going to DO about your dead bedroom sexless marriage. And that starts with YOU. You can probably improve your situation by improving you. Again, the vibrator isn’t the problem, her lack of sexual desire for YOU is.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

@Thunderbird 

Your actually starting from a better position than some. Your wife is at least indicating a sex drive. You just need to get the ship sailing straight.

Unless your about to say something that makes us understand why your wife won’t touch you with a 10 ft pole.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

DudeInProgress said:


> 1. She’s not attracted to you and isn’t interested in sex with you. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a sex drive, she just doesn’t want it with you. Sorry, I know that sucks to realize, but that’s the really of your situation.
> 
> The vibrator isn’t the problem, it just provided clarity to your situation.
> 
> ...


Let’s at least have hope for one sexless guy that shows up here. I’m proof it can be done. Maybe this guy can do it also.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'd get her a newer toy, one 5 or so years old *may not have all the new features *current models have.


God, those features, like creatures, they look, oooh, not feel.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> Let’s hold off on that for a guy who hasn’t said anything about his wife having the hots somewhere else. Maybe she is just a bored and tired house mom and nothing more.
> 
> This guy might have an actual chance


Maybe. And I think there is often a chance to turn these situations around.
But that requires accepting that he has a dead bedroom issue to deal with and the solution starts with him.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> Let’s at least have hope for one sexless guy that shows up here. I’m proof it can be done. Maybe this guy can do it also.


I agree. I actually think MANY dead bedroom situations are fixable, but it takes action and it starts with him.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Thunderbird said:


> I have tried in the past. How do you do that when the other person won't open up? I just end up feeling like an interrogator.


Consider marriage counseling or your relationship has no chance of being viable in the near future. If you guys cannot communicate about sex there is a HUGE problem. According to my MC the two major cause of marital strife is first the inability to communicate about sex and secondly the inability to communicate and agree on finances.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If this helps, W and I use toys, different vibrators time to time, very regularly because I like to use them on her and she likes it.
> 
> We have sex min 4 times a week, more mostly, and if she wants to use them without me ever if I'm working late here and there I have never had a problem with that. In fact the more the merrier because we have always communicated easily re sexual activity and everything together has created a very frequent and high quality of sex for us. We even go to adult stores together time to time.
> 
> ...


Consider Adam and Eve’s the Womanizer. It is fantastic and my wife could not believe how it literally made her eyes roll back in her head LOL. Be creative and inventive in the bedroom. You should also consider reading some books by Dr. John Gottman who my MC studied under.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

At least ask her if you can watch...


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Read Married Mans Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay


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## Trustless Marriage (Mar 1, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Now, I'd buy two more better vibrators with a sexy card, so she has a choice o vibrators to use, and put them the drawer for her to peruse when reaching in the toy drawer.
> 
> Just to see what happens.


I like that answer better than mine lol. Buy a small, medium, large and extra large vibrating dildos. Take the batteries out out of all of them and place one set of batteries in the drawer. Check back a week later and see which one has the batteries in them lol.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> Several years ago (maybe before kids) I bought a small vibrator to use on my wife during sex. She said it didn't seem to do much for her, so we put in her nightstand and left it.
> 
> We've been married 23 years. Early in our marriage, sex was 2-3 times a week. Our sexual frequency dropped to once a week after kid #1, same after kid #2. Over the last few years, we've gotten to about once a month. This is not by my choice.
> 
> ...


I would definitely use what you found about the vibrator as a way to open up a bigger conversation. It is a big issue if she is masturbating more than she is having sex with you. You MUST talk to her about this. Having open and honest discussion like this is vital to the health of your marriage IMO.

As @DudeInProgress said, you don't ask for sex with your wife, you initiate sex with your wife. Asking is almost always going to result in a no unless she is already horny. You have to make her get her in the mood then go with the flow. You really have to read Married Mans Sex Life Primer.

Here are couple other article I've found useful, maybe you will too. 

These cover communication









Why it's important to talk about sex - Uncovering Intimacy


Many couples don't about sex, and we know why. It's embarrassing, awkward and uncomfortable. But it's still important. Here's why.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com












Are you initiating conversations for the wrong reasons? - Uncovering Intimacy


Why do you initiate conversations in your marriage? Chances are they're for the wrong reasons. Here's how to grow intimacy in your marriage instead.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com












How to have a conversation - Uncovering Intimacy


Do you know how to have a conversation? Are you sure? A lot of people think they know, but they're really just skilled at talking, not conversation.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com





These cover types of desire and initiating sex









Being more skilled at initiation - Uncovering Intimacy


Do you use skillful initiation in your marriage? Don't know? You might want to check out this post to see if you can improve how you initiate sex.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com












Are you sabotaging your sex life like I do? - Uncovering Intimacy


Wish you had more sex in your marriage? Here's some of they ways I've sabotaged our sex life. Maybe you'll recognize some of the patterns.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com












Trapped gatekeepers - blame the guard, not the prisoner - Uncovering Intimacy


Do you feel that you are trapped by your low libido? Do you "want to want to" have sex? This post explains what's going on, and how to deal with this war going on in your brain.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com






And these are right on target for your situation









What do you do if you suspect your spouse of secretly masturbating? - Uncovering Intimacy


What if you suspect your spouse of masturbating behind your back? How do you approach them? What do you say? Here are some ideas.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com









Why does my low-drive spouse masturbate?


I received an anonymous question about low-drive spouses masturbating instead of having sex. Here are my thoughts, what are yours?




www.uncoveringintimacy.com


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> One of the more difficult things in a situation like this is to get your partner to understand the seriousness of it. I was once in a position much like yours. It will be difficult to get your wife to understand that sexuality is the way you feel loved and that being starved for it is truly a risk to marriage. I read about 30 books and used this forum to come to a better understanding of myself, my wife, and human sexuality. I will tell you this with no uncertainty: If you don’t change yourself and your willingness to end the marriage over this.... nothing will change. You can’t bluff your way around it. You fundamentally need to change what you accept and what you will not. A sexless marriage is not acceptable. My recommendation is given predicated upon the assumption you are a good man to your wife. Once my wife understood the expectation and that I wasn’t bluffing one bit ... the sex flood gate opened and for the past 5 years I’ve had more than I can handle. You will have to give your wife the pleasurable meaningful experience of sex ..... not the bullchit stuff.


So, the expectation is more sex, obviously. If she says no? What then? Empty threats don't solve anything. We have a good relationship otherwise. When we have sex, it's good and she seems into it.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> well, if she is using the vibrator instead of your penis, what does it tell you?


I'm not sure. Maybe she figured out she likes masturbation. Maybe doesn't love me anymore. Maybe going through menopause is changing her sex drive and she's trying to figure it out. I really don't know.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> So, the expectation is more sex, obviously. If she says no? What then? Empty threats don't solve anything. We have a good relationship otherwise. When we have sex, it's good and she seems into it.


My wife loves when we have sex and we have sex frequently, but if I simply ask her if she wants to have sex the answer is usually going to be no. Because at that moment she isn't even thinking about it. I never ask that question, except maybe as a playful flirt.

Your wife obviously has a sex drive if she is using the vibrator. You have to be the man she wants to fulfill those desires.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> Because that will come off as accusation. Don’t do that. It’s the opposite of open meaningful dialogue. It will also make her want to hide or be shamed about it which is exactly what you DONT want


That is one of my concerns. This has already been a tough topic to discuss. It would seem to be a potential topic. If we talk about our sex life any she says she's just not interested anyone, why the vibrator use? My fear is she'd shut things down completely. I love her, I don't want to push her farther away.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> Let’s hold off on that for a guy who hasn’t said anything about his wife having the hots somewhere else. Maybe she is just a bored and tired house mom and nothing more.
> 
> This guy might have an actual chance


I know she always complains of being tired. But, she'll stay up until 11pm reading because it's her nightly routine.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Those Bob's, such lucky things they are.
> To be so near and dear.
> To be one with Dear.
> .................................................................
> ...


I would love to give her oral. She took that off the table several years ago. I used to do it often, but, it got where if I'd try, she'd say no and push me away. Said she doesn't want to do that anymore.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> So, the expectation is more sex, obviously. If she says no? What then? Empty threats don't solve anything. We have a good relationship otherwise. When we have sex, it's good and she seems into it.


You have options other than empty threats of divorce.

But that requires a couple of things:

1. You have to be strong enough to rock the boat.

2. You have to be willing to make her uncomfortable in the midst of your own discomfort. 

If you can't do those things, you can continue this behavior pattern of essentially begging for her affection, which causes her to lose respect for you, and you to lose respect for yourself.

So...it's either bad enough to actually do something about, or it's not. 

If it is, act.

If it isn't, stop complaining and accept it.

There is no middle ground. 





Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> That is one of my concerns. This has already been a tough topic to discuss. It would seem to be a potential topic. If we talk about our sex life any she says she's just not interested anyone, why the vibrator use? My fear is she'd shut things down completely. I love her, I don't want to push her farther away.


It is tough because she is stonewalling you. This is toxic relationship behavior, according to Dr. Gottman:









The Four Horsemen: Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, & Stonewalling


Identify the Four Horsemen in your conflict discussions, eliminate them and replace them with healthy, productive communication patterns




www.gottman.com





Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

No fi


Livvie said:


> Sorry OP but I have to ask. Have you been here before asking about this issue?
> 
> If not, there are older threads about this that might be helpful to you to peruse as well.


No, new member.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> 1. She’s not attracted to you and isn’t interested in sex with you. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a sex drive, she just doesn’t want it with you. Sorry, I know that sucks to realize, but that’s the really of your situation.
> 
> The vibrator isn’t the problem, it just provided clarity to your situation.
> 
> ...


I do ask for sex, though. It's to the point where she says no almost everytime I ask. When we do have sex, I'll give her a goodnight kiss and she doesn't turn away right after. She doesn't like me to initiate out of nowhere. She's gotten irritated in the past because I'm interrupting her nighttime routine if I just initiate.

Edit... I think I misunderstood the point about asking for sex. I thought you were stating that you didn't think I was asking, but, trying to initiate. Reading it again, I think you're telling me to stop asking and just initiate.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I can tell by your response that you aren’t going to be willing to rock the boat. In this case you have already lost. You have to be willing to make everyone very uncomfortable... and willing to stick it out.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Maybe. And I think there is often a chance to turn these situations around.
> But that requires accepting that he has a dead bedroom issue to deal with and the solution starts with him.


The reason I'm here is because I know there's a problem. I had actually gotten to where I had just accepted that her sex drive was gone and then this situation came up.

The comment that I need to start by changing me isn't helpful. What do I need to change? I'm a good husband, I don't know what more I can do if she doesn't want sex with me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> I do ask for sex, though. It's to the point where she says no almost everytime I ask. When we do have sex, I'll give her a goodnight kiss and she doesn't turn away right after. She doesn't like me to initiate out of nowhere. She's gotten irritated in the past because I'm interrupting her nighttime routine if I just initiate.


Well sh!t.

That being the case, you should initiate twice as much to bring this to a head.

Otherwise you're M will slowly die by death from a thousand cuts, slowly and painfully.

Push it hard. Get it our in the open quickly so there's no long drawn out even further grief.


Thunderbird said:


> I'm not sure. Maybe she figured out she likes masturbation. Maybe doesn't love me anymore. Maybe going through menopause is changing her sex drive and she's trying to figure it out. I really don't know.


In Ms with happy frequency of good sex, masturbation doesn't replace sex but either spouse is ok to partake. Ask any woman in such a circumstance the answer is always masturbation provides a different way to O, and provides personal time to explore. Not a replacement but an augmentation of a good sex life.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'm presuming you masturbate as well?

I think it's fair to say at this point, I have a pretty hard line on sexless relationships.

I'm not saying it's time to burn the relationship to the ground, but you need to find a way to move the needle. And that is absolutely going to revolve around both of you becoming uncomfortable with the dialogue and actions that will be required to 'fix' the issue.

Where are you at in terms of health, fitness, self-esteem. What about her?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> The reason I'm here is because I know there's a problem. I had actually gotten to where I had just accepted that her sex drive was gone and then this situation came up.
> 
> The comment that I need to start by changing me isn't helpful. What do I need to change? I'm a good husband, I don't know what more I can do if she doesn't want sex with me.


You need to work on you, for the next woman in your life if this doesn't work out.

The good thing is doing so helps this M have a better chance.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> The reason I'm here is because I know there's a problem. I had actually gotten to where I had just accepted that her sex drive was gone and then this situation came up.
> 
> The comment that I need to start by changing me isn't helpful. What do I need to change? I'm a good husband, I don't know what more I can do if she doesn't want sex with me.


@Thunderbird:

I came to TAM in 2014, because I had a dead bedroom, among other things. More on that in a moment. 

Everyone (including me) who comes to this site with a dead bedroom is hoping to hear some magic bullet that will get their partner to change. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

And every person who refuses to accept that they must change either leaves this site before a resolution, or ends up divorced. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

You are 1/2 of your marital dynamic. You are contributing to this problem, at a minimum, by acquiescing to a lack of sex. That said, you may be contributing in other ways as well. 

As a stark example: a gentleman came to this site in a situation similar to yours, and it took him nearly 5 months to disclose that he was over 100 lbs heavier than when he and his wife were first married. 5...MONTHS...

I know you don't want to hear about how you have contributed to this because you are the one being hurt, but refusal to accept this basic premise will result in nothing changing. 

So, how is your general health and hygiene? Are you obese? Is that different from the past? Does your wife have any complaints about you or the marriage? What about her health/hygiene?

Back to my marriage. It took me 18 months to turn my marriage around, and it started with me understanding that I needed to change first. We are now happy, healthy, and have a regular sex life with a diverse menu of bedroom activities. 

None of it would have happened without me changing first.

When you are ready to be open to change, say so. Until then, you will find your situation tomorrow to be exactly the same (or worse) as today. 


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> I do ask for sex, though. It's to the point where she says no almost everytime I ask. When we do have sex, I'll give her a goodnight kiss and she doesn't turn away right after. She doesn't like me to initiate out of nowhere. She's gotten irritated in the past because I'm interrupting her nighttime routine if I just initiate.


If you want your situation to improve, you need to be willing to stand up and take control of your situation. Stop being passive and start leading your wife in your marriage.
Women respect strength and leadership, they despise weakness. I’m not suggesting that you’ve been weak (maybe you have, maybe you haven’t) but you certainly seem to be passive and resigned to the fate of a sad passionless marriage. You are in control of your situation and you can change it if you choose to.

The first thing you need to do is make a decision as to whether or not you will passively accept a sad, passionless, unfulfilling marriage or not. You need to decide whether you’re just looking for martyrdom and validation for your misery, or if you actually want to improve your life. Because a crappy marriage is a crappy life. And a sexless marriage is a crappy marriage.

You are responsible for being the leader in your marriage. That means setting the tone of your interactions and relationship, as well as being attractive and not being unattractive as a man and a husband. Tell your wife what you expect out of your relationship together and then start behaving as such.
Be playful, be flirtatious, tease her with a smile. Don’t expect her to respond right away, consider it practice.

Start doing things that make you more attractive, and stop doing things that make you unattractive.
If you’ve gotten out of shape, start working out and get in better shape.
Be more flirty and charming and fun. Show more confidence and leadership.
Recognize it you’re acting whiny, needy, etc. and stop doing it. Get / focus on hobbies and be more scarce around the house.

Above all, this is for you, not for her. If she asks what’s going on with you, just tell her I’m not willing to have a non-passionate, roommate marriage so we’re going to start changing that now. I realized I haven’t been leading in this and I’ve decided to change that as well.
Start being affectionate and initiating physically but don’t act butthurt when she declines. Be consistent and don’t neglect any of this, give it 6 months. If she doesn’t start responding at that point, you need clearly tell her that you won’t settle for a platonic roommate marriage, and if that is all she is willing/ capable of, then it’s time to move on. And you need to be serious, this can’t be a bluff.

You have to be willing to lose your marriage if you want any hope of reestablishing a romantic, sexual, fulfilling marriage.
She may come around, or she may not. But after 6 months of the above, you’ll be in a much better position either way.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> I can tell by your response that you aren’t going to be willing to rock the boat. In this case you have already lost. You have to be willing to make everyone very uncomfortable... and willing to stick it out.


I guess I don't even understand what is meant by rock the boat and make uncomfortable.

She's communicated either verbally or nonverbally that she doesn't like me trying to initiate when she's doing her nightly reading. By the time she's done, it's usually too late.
The next logical thing is to then ask if she wants to have sex. Almost always results in a no.

I've tried to discuss this with her before and gotten nowhere. I quit trying because it didn't accomplish anything. Trying to talk about this will make her plenty uncomfortable. 

Maybe I'm just too dense to understand.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thunderbird said:


> She's gotten irritated in the past because I'm interrupting her nighttime routine if I just initiate.


This is quite revealing, IMO... my hunch is that she does like sex, occasionally, but not with you in particular, or she can't be bothered (you mess up her night time routine!), so a quick encounter with her friend vibrator solves the problem.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> I guess I don't even understand what is meant by rock the boat and make uncomfortable.
> 
> She's communicated either verbally or nonverbally that she doesn't like me trying to initiate when she's doing her nightly reading. By the time she's done, it's usually too late.
> The next logical thing is to then ask if she wants to have sex. Almost always results in a no.
> ...


Or you want an easy fix.

THERE IS NO EASY SOLUTION.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thunderbird said:


> I guess I don't even understand what is meant by rock the boat and make uncomfortable.
> 
> She's communicated either verbally or nonverbally that she doesn't like me trying to initiate when she's doing her nightly reading. By the time she's done, it's usually too late.
> The next logical thing is to then ask if she wants to have sex. Almost always results in a no.
> ...


Another thing... have you done anything in the past to upset her?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> The reason I'm here is because I know there's a problem. I had actually gotten to where I had just accepted that her sex drive was gone and then this situation came up.
> 
> The comment that I need to start by changing me isn't helpful. What do I need to change? I'm a good husband, I don't know what more I can do if she doesn't want sex with me.





Thunderbird said:


> I guess I don't even understand what is meant by rock the boat and make uncomfortable.
> 
> She's communicated either verbally or nonverbally that she doesn't like me trying to initiate when she's doing her nightly reading. By the time she's done, it's usually too late.
> The next logical thing is to then ask if she wants to have sex. Almost always results in a no.
> ...


You seem to have already decided that there is nothing you can do. If nothing else read the book Married Man Sex Life Primer by Kay Athol. You will have a much better understanding of what everyone is telling you. It is less than $5 for the electronic version.






The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 - Kindle edition by Kay, Athol. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.


The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 - Kindle edition by Kay, Athol. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011.



smile.amazon.com


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Another thing... have you done anything in the past to upset her?


I'm sure I have, it wouldn't be a normal relationship if you didn't get upset with each other sometimes. But, I treat her well. We don't have major fights over things. I love and respect her.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

By rock the boat I mean you will communicate to her that this situation is absolutely unacceptable and not a version of marriage that you will continue.

You never answered someone’s question above so I’ll put it bluntly:

Are you a fat pig ?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thunderbird said:


> I'm sure I have, it wouldn't be a normal relationship if you didn't get upset with each other sometimes. But, I treat her well. We don't have major fights over things. I love and respect her.


I'm just saying it because wives rarely stop having sex with their husbands if there is still a connection. It seems to me, your are not emotionally connected any more. Like she doesn't respect you or she's lost her attraction for you. Maybe she resents you for some reason. Or she resents her life. Is she happy with her life? With the kids? The fact that you treat her well and you respects her doesn't mean much: she expects that from you.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> I guess I don't even understand what is meant by rock the boat and make uncomfortable.
> 
> She's communicated either verbally or nonverbally that she doesn't like me trying to initiate when she's doing her nightly reading. By the time she's done, it's usually too late.
> The next logical thing is to then ask if she wants to have sex. Almost always results in a no.
> ...


Stop following her lead and start leading her.

You don’t ask her permission to initiate, you just initiate. (It starts with heavy flirting ahead of the time you want to actually start, so don’t be autistic about it. If you don’t know how to flirt, learn now. Plenty of guides on the youtubes).

Start flirting with her earlier in the day and ramp it up towards the evening. Then initiate in a fun, confident manner. 
If she says no, it’s my reading time - smile and say “not tonight it isn’t” and take her book, put a bookmark in it, put it on the nightstand and continue initiating.
If she gets upset and seriously pushes back, smile and say “ok, another time” give her a kiss and leave to go do something else. (Going to the gym is a good one.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

On a side note it may be important to understand that your wife may also have no idea why she isn’t into you anymore. It’s not some type of conspiracy.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> On a side note it may be important to understand that your wife may also have no idea why she isn’t into you anymore. It’s not some type of conspiracy.


Some wives just go off sex... but it would be nice to be told...


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> @Thunderbird:
> 
> I came to TAM in 2014, because I had a dead bedroom, among other things. More on that in a moment.
> 
> ...


Pure Gold ...... Well done 👍


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> By rock the boat I mean you will communicate to her that this situation is absolutely unacceptable and not a version of marriage that you will continue.
> 
> You never answered someone’s question above so I’ll put it bluntly:
> 
> Are you a fat pig ?


No, I'm not a fat pig. I could probably lose a little weight, though. I probably weighed 130-140 lb when we got married. Probably about 160 now.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Deejo said:


> I'm presuming you masturbate as well?
> 
> I think it's fair to say at this point, I have a pretty hard line on sexless relationships.
> 
> ...


I occasionally do when I get I get tired of being turned down. It might be once a week for a while, it might be once a month. I've gotten to to point now where I just have little interest in it as it's not the real thing.

I'm in decent shape, could probably lose 20 lb and I'd be pretty thin at that point. Wife has put on more weight than me over the years, but, has been working on losing to improve long term health.

We both keep our hygiene in check.

She seems to have good self esteem, but, avoids confrontation. My self esteem has eroded. It's hard feel good about yourself when the person you vowed to love forever continually rejects you.


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## Goshenite (Jul 28, 2021)

OP, The question I haven’t seen asked here yet. When you and your wife were having sex did she enjoy it? Were you able to satisfy her?


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> On a side note it may be important to understand that your wife may also have no idea why she isn’t into you anymore. It’s not some type of conspiracy.


We read the Love Languages book several years ago when the kids were younger. Not surprisingly, I am physical touch, she is acts of service. She told me then that sex just wasn't a priority for her. She felt she needed to focus on the kids.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Stop following her lead and start leading her.
> 
> You don’t ask her permission to initiate, you just initiate. (It starts with heavy flirting ahead of the time you want to actually start, so don’t be autistic about it. If you don’t know how to flirt, learn now. Plenty of guides on the youtubes).
> 
> ...


What you described would not go well. She doesn't seem to like me flirting with her. If I send her a suggestive text I get no response, if I flirt at home, she acts annoyed. If I tried to tell her to out her book away, she'd probably push me away and get mad.

Btw, I don't appreciate the autistic comment. I have two nephews that are, it's not something to joke about.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Goshenite said:


> OP, The question I haven’t seen asked here yet. When you and your wife were having sex did she enjoy it? Were you able to satisfy her?


She seems to enjoy it and says she's satisfied. Sex is good when we have it. It's just not nearly as often as I want.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> We read the Love Languages book several years ago when the kids were younger. Not surprisingly, I am physical touch, she is acts of service. She told me then that sex just wasn't a priority for her. She felt she needed to focus on the kids.


This is important.

Why? Because now you know what is no longer a 'priority' for you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> This is important.
> 
> Why? Because now you know what is no longer a 'priority' for you.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Are you suggesting that I stop showing love to her? If so, that seems counterproductive.


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## Goshenite (Jul 28, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> She seems to enjoy it and says she's satisfied. Sex is good when we have it. It's just not nearly as often as I want.


Is it possible that she just wants to get off quickly and go to sleep? That she’s still sexually motivated but simply doesn’t want to take the time to get to that end zone with you? Not that you turned her off in anyway, but maybe she just doesn’t want to expend the energy to get you there as well? If that’s the case, then you need to develop tricks that make her want to keep it going for longer. Again communication is key, she needs to share with you what she likes and what makes her happy. I feel for you because you are just making wild guesses in the dark now.


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## HappilyMarried1 (Jul 21, 2021)

Sorry for your situation @Thunderbird i know you are very frustrated. I think you need to tell her exactly how you feel and that you need more intimacy in the marriage than there currently is and you only want it with her.
Now a couple of questions does she work outside of the home? Does she go out with friends? Do you ever notice her gone for longer periods than normal in past few years?Have you looked out internet browser history or phone records Not suggesting anything bad just looking for possible reasons. Best of luck!


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> What you described would not go well. She doesn't seem to like me flirting with her. If I send her a suggestive text I get no response, if I flirt at home, she acts annoyed. If I tried to tell her to out her book away, she'd probably push me away and get mad.


Then she’s just not attracted to you as a man, sorry. You can’t negotiate desire, you have to create / inspire it.
Go read my longer post that describes your best course of action here.



Thunderbird said:


> Btw, I don't appreciate the autistic comment. I have two nephews that are, it's not something to joke about.


And my oldest son is on the spectrum (high functioning thankfully).
Relax and dial back the emotionally reactive sensitivity. If you do that with your wife, also unattractive.

Please understand, everyone here has your best interests at heart and are genuinely trying to help you. Even if you don’t like what we’re telling you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> Are you suggesting that I stop showing love to her? If so, that seems counterproductive.


You aren't ready yet. That's okay.

Please let me know when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

What I'm taking away from this so far...
1. Figure out what she doesn't like about me and try to work on improving that.
2. Hit the gym.
3. I've got some suggested reading material. I already started the Athol Kay book a few days ago. Still in the beginning part discussing the biology stuff.
4. Have another hard conversation about our sex life. Do I bring up the vibrator use at all? I really don't know how she'll react.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> You aren't ready yet. That's okay.
> 
> Please let me know when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


The vow I took when I got married was to love her through all of life's ups and downs. To cut off my love in retaliation would go against that vow. I feel it's a biblical mandate and I refuse to stop showing love to my wife. If there was cheating involved that's different.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> What I'm taking away from this so far...
> 1. Figure out what she doesn't like about me and try to work on improving that.
> 2. Hit the gym.
> 3. I've got some suggested reading material. I already started the Athol Kay book a few days ago. Still in the beginning part discussing the biology stuff.
> 4. Have another hard conversation about our sex life. Do I bring up the vibrator use at all? I really don't know how she'll react.


All pretty good, my suggestions...

1. Don't bother trying to figure out what she doesn't like, just work on making you better for you.
2. Gym goes along with #1
3. Good, keep going
4. Definitely have a conversation and I do think you need to bring up the vibrator. I am not anti-masturbation, but if it has any negative impact on your marriage then it is wrong. You need to find out why she will get sexual relief on her own, but not with you. Tell her you want to help her with whatever she needs. I strongly suggest you read the articles I linked to previously. Understanding how desire works and how to communicate effectively are vital.


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## HappilyMarried1 (Jul 21, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> 4. Have another hard conversation about our sex life. Do I bring up the vibrator use at all? I really


This is the one I think you need to address and just talk with her about the lack of sex and your needs. Then after you here her response then bring up the vibrator and does she understand how it makes you feel when she turns you down then uses it.

I personally think that after 23 years of marriage if you can’t talk to her about this then you have a bigger problem than just the lack of sex.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Thunderbird said:


> The vow I took when I got married was to love her through all of life's ups and downs. To cut off my love in retaliation would go against that vow. I feel it's a biblical mandate and I refuse to stop showing love to my wife. If there was cheating involved that's different.


Instead of being defensive why don't you listen to what farside is trying to tell you. He sure helped me!!

Sounds like your wife sure has "cut off" her love for you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Thunderbird said:


> Several years ago (maybe before kids) I bought a small vibrator to use on my wife during sex. She said it didn't seem to do much for her, so we put in her nightstand and left it.
> 
> We've been married 23 years. Early in our marriage, sex was 2-3 times a week. Our sexual frequency dropped to once a week after kid #1, same after kid #2. Over the last few years, we've gotten to about once a month. This is not by my choice.
> 
> ...


Do you want her policing your masturbation?


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You seem to have already decided that there is nothing you can do.


Not at all. I just don't know how to fix this. It's why I asked for advice.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Do you want her policing your masturbation?


No I don't, but, I probably wouldn't ever do it if sex life was where I wanted it. I don't have a problem with her masturbating except it seems she's been doing it instead of being with me.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Thunderbird said:


> Not at all. I just don't know how to fix this. It's why I asked for advice.


You say you want to fix it, but what are you willing to do (or not do) to try to turn things around?

I can tell you from experience that farside can help you but it doesn't really look like you want his help or you would have asked for it by now.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

sideways said:


> Instead of being defensive why don't you listen to what farside is trying to tell you. He sure helped me!!
> 
> Sounds like your wife sure has "cut off" her love for you.


Not being defensive, just pointing out that I believe God wants us to love our spouse even if they don't reciprocate the way we want.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Thunderbird said:


> No I don't, but, I probably wouldn't ever do it if sex life was where I wanted it. I don't have a problem with her masturbating except it seems she's been doing it instead of being with me.


That doesn't justify it to me. I think most people masturbate, no matter what the situation. Sex life is never going to be where you want it because most women don't want sex as much as most men. Women don't necessarily consider themselves men's masturbation solution. Work on your relationship, not your sex life, and that's your best hope. But sex frequency changes as people are together a long time and also as they have children and also as they get older. Fact of life.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Thunderbird said:


> Not being defensive, just pointing out that I believe God wants us to love our spouse even if they don't reciprocate the way we want.


Ok then why are you here??

Your wife doesn't "reciprocate the way you want". So keep on loving her and quit complaining about not having sex with her or her using a vibrator instead of being with you.

How do you think God would feel about your wife fulfilling her sexual desires with a piece of plastic instead of you her husband? Did your wife stand up before God and take vows with a Vibrator?


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

sideways said:


> Ok then why are you here??
> 
> Your wife doesn't "reciprocate the way you want". So keep on loving her and quit complaining about not having sex with her or her using a vibrator instead of being with you.
> 
> How do you think God would feel about your wife fulfilling her sexual desires with a piece of plastic instead of you her husband? Did your wife stand up before God and take vows with a Vibrator?


I don't think he would approve, but, I also think the solution is to start acting like I don't love her.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That doesn't justify it to me. I think most people masturbate, no matter what the situation. Sex life is never going to be where you want it because most women don't want sex as much as most men. Women don't necessarily consider themselves men's masturbation solution. Work on your relationship, not your sex life, and that's your best hope. But sex frequency changes as people are together a long time and also as they have children and also as they get older. Fact of life.


OPs issue can't be solely chalked up to male / female differences.

She's cut him off and has taken full control of their sex life, without his input or approval.

There are two people in the marriage, its not just her that gets to make the decision.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

re16 said:


> OPs issue can't be solely chalked up to male / female differences.
> 
> She's cut him off and has taken full control of their sex life, without his input or approval.
> 
> There are two people in the marriage, its not just her that gets to make the decision.


I think plenty of men have unilaterally taken it upon themselves to masturbate in marriage over many many decades, my friend. She's taken control of HER sex life. Like he says, he has been masturbating as well. Certainly he should have a talk and find out if the marriage is worth salvaging to either of them if she doesn't want to keep up the frequency they had as newlyweds. Because pretty sure she'd want to know if that's his main criteria for staying married. Most women assume it can't possibly be - until they read this forum, that is.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> I don't think he would approve, but, I also think the solution is to start acting like I don't love her.


That’s where you are getting it wrong.... you need to understand placing value in yourself. It’s not about not loving your wife. You need to understand what you will accept in marriage and what you will not.
You have a long way to go .... your still holding tightly to the premise of I will do more and love her more for the sex she will give me. Female desire doesn’t work like that. Those things are important but at this no sexual stage it is working against you.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> Not being defensive, just pointing out that I believe God wants us to love our spouse even if they don't reciprocate the way we want.


I and many Christians would also say that isn't God's view.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

T-Bird, as you have no doubt noticed ... lots of opinions and input from other posters here. The issue you are experiencing, is downright pedestrian around these parts.

There are those that have gotten to the other side, and are reaping the rewards of having their needs met, and wherein both partners are enjoying the fruits of an improved and balanced marriage.

There are those that accept what is going on, is the status quo, are overwhelmingly conflict avoidant, and just decide "it is what it is." And will muddle through their marriage. 

There are those that decide they aren't going to accept a sexless marriage, even if it means sacrificing the marriage. 

I'd suggest at this juncture, you at least start thinking about which of those 3 categories aligns with your expectations.

And of course a number of other posters have already stated the unwavering and simple truth that we tend to emphasize around here. "You can't change your partner. You can only change yourself."

When enacted with the commitment of doing the work and following through, you reach an outcome where it is clear that your partner values YOU, and your marriage and as a result of the changes you make, they respond by making changes. OR ... you arrive at a place where you decide what you are willing to accept and importantly, what you are not willing to accept. 

Regardless of the outcome, no man here would argue the value of the exercise in benefitting their own growth.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think plenty of men have unilaterally taken it upon themselves to masturbate in marriage over many many decades, my friend. She's taken control of HER sex life. Like he says, he has been masturbating as well. Certainly he should have a talk and find out if the marriage is worth salvaging to either of them if she doesn't want to keep up the frequency they had as newlyweds. Because pretty sure she'd want to know if that's his main criteria for staying married. Most women assume it can't possibly be - until they read this forum, that is.


I don't expect the same frequency as when we were first married. I'd be happy with once a week. I never said my main criteria for staying married is our sex life. It's important (at least to me) though.


Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I and many Christians would also say that isn't God's view.


I'd be interested in hearing more on your view, then. I don't recall a passage in the Bible that would suggest what you're saying. I could be wrong, though.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Deejo said:


> T-Bird, as you have no doubt noticed ... lots of opinions and input from other posters here. The issue you are experiencing, is downright pedestrian around these parts.
> 
> There are those that have gotten to the other side, and are reaping the rewards of having their needs met, and wherein both partners are enjoying the fruits of an improved and balanced marriage.
> 
> ...


For a guy with two blown marriages you sure can hit the nail right on the head. You should be a marriage rock star by my thoughts


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Mr.Married said:


> The vibrator has nothing to do with you. It’s just an easy outlet. You need to have a heart to heart with your wife about your love life in an honest open way. The vibrator is not part of that discussion.


But on the flip-side, it might have everything to do with @Thunderbird. This is what happened in my former marriage as well (minus the kids, and also, sex was never fantastic or plentiful). But, it slid downhill quickly after the wedding, and I ended up burning out a couple of vibrators within our short 4-year marriage. Like you, early on I tried to open up the communication lines about this, and pretty much got shut out. I would try to talk to her yet, and tell her that this is really affecting you and your marriage, and that this is something that needs to be worked on. See how she responds; If it's a positive response and she actually steps up, you'll know that she cares about you and the marriage. If she just kind of blows you off, you have your answer: she's just not that into you.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Ursula said:


> But on the flip-side, it might have everything to do with @Thunderbird. This is what happened in my former marriage as well (minus the kids, and also, sex was never fantastic or plentiful). But, it slid downhill quickly after the wedding, and I ended up burning out a couple of vibrators within our short 4-year marriage. Like you, early on I tried to open up the communication lines about this, and pretty much got shut out. I would try to talk to her yet, and tell her that this is really affecting you and your marriage, and that this is something that needs to be worked on. See how she responds; If it's a positive response and she actually steps up, you'll know that she cares about you and the marriage. If she just kind of blows you off, you have your answer: she's just not that into you.





BigDaddyNY said:


> All pretty good, my suggestions...
> 
> 1. Don't bother trying to figure out what she doesn't like, just work on making you better for you.
> 2. Gym goes along with #1
> ...


Do you suggest I get through all the reading before I talk to her?


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

I'm out for a while, my head is swimming right now.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Thunderbird said:


> I don't think he would approve, but, I also think the solution is to start acting like I don't love her.


Who's saying you need to act like you don't love her?

If you really want to try to fix this it would be in your best interest to ask farside for help and then do what he tells you to do. 

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. What you're doing is NOT working!!

You know this or you wouldn't be here.

Are you looking for pity here and people to coddle you because I can assure you that's not what TAM is about. 

You want a solution? Farside can help you.

Also, why aren't you PISSED off about this?

Your wife is lying to you and she prefers a plastic toy over you and she has NO problem rejecting you like a little toddler.

Is this what you signed up for when you married?

You talk about good times and bad times in a marriage, and yes you're right.

If you knew before you got married to your wife that she would be doing this (rejecting you and using a toy for sexual pleasure) be honest with yourself, would you still want to marry her?

Think about how you feel (and have felt) every single time that she's rejected you under some bull$h!t excuse only to find out that she was lying to you and that she preferred using a vibrator instead AND she had NO problem constantly rejecting you and making you feel unwanted and feeling like $h!T and it didn't bother her at all.

And you're letting her do this!!

I'll leave you with this.

You can NOT change what you won't confront!!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> Do you suggest I get through all the reading before I talk to her?


No. Not if you want to hop off the insanity train.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

sideways said:


> Who's saying you need to act like you don't love her?


Several have implied that since she's essentially cut me off sexually that I should act like she doesn't matter to me. At least that's what I took away from it.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> Several have implied that since she's essentially cut me off sexually that I should act like she doesn't matter to me. At least that's what I took away from it.


Your getting a little closer...... place value in yourself.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> I don't think he would approve, but, I also think the solution is to start acting like I don't love her.


You don’t understand.
You (as a man) control 3 primary levers in a relationship. Your attention, your affection and your commitment. 
And your attention, affection and commitment aren’t free.

If she isn’t upholding her side of the relationship (and sex is a huge, fundamental pillar of a marriage) and meeting your expectations as a wife, then you are absolutely justified in withholding your attention, affection or commitment.

You’re clearly not ready to consider removing your commitment, so we’ll leave that one be for now.
You can adjust your affection and attention.

I’m not suggesting you should act like a mean ahole, and treat her with hostility - that would be counterproductive.
But you should absolutely dial back your displays of affection to her. Be pleasant and fun and mildly affectionate, but that’s it.

Attention is a big one for most women. They crave it in the way you crave sex and physical intimacy.
You need to start removing your attention of she’s not meeting your needs. 
Again, don’t be a jerk about it, just find other things to do that take your time/attention away from her.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I and many Christians would also say that isn't God's view.


Of course it might be prudent to remember that there are no chapters in The Bible written by women.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Thunderbird said:


> I don't expect the same frequency as when we were first married. I'd be happy with once a week. I never said my main criteria for staying married is our sex life. It's important (at least to me) though.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing more on your view, then. I don't recall a passage in the Bible that would suggest what you're saying. I could be wrong, though.


God has other needs, He cannot be the intimacy warden.
There are 7 billion people on this Earth. 

Do you think He cares how little sex you are getting?
He ain't your Daddy, he is the Father in Heaven.

Worry about being a good human, a good neighbor.

YOU take charge of your sex needs and wants.

God has his disciple Peter, and you have another peter, a different sort, a short version.


_But as for you, be fruitful and multiply._ Genesis 9:7
He wants men and women to get it on.

Stop with the silly excuses.

Remember, religion is supposed to help you navigate through life, not for you to get tied up in the minutia.
You are SELF-TYING your hands, denying your manhood.

She is your wife, both of you have 'duties' to each other. 
Intimacy and kindness is two of them.

She is derelict in her wifely duties, not you.



_Nemesis-_


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Of course it might be prudent to remember that there are no chapters in The Bible written by women.


Or that there’s a woman who had a child that wasn’t for her husband...... mysteriously?

Sorry I couldn’t help myself!!


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> Several have implied that since she's essentially cut me off sexually that I should act like she doesn't matter to me. At least that's what I took away from it.


Reposting my response from 2 posts down as it directly addresses this:

You don’t understand.
You (as a man) control 3 primary levers in a relationship. Your attention, your affection and your commitment.
And your attention, affection and commitment aren’t free.

If she isn’t upholding her side of the relationship (and sex is a huge, fundamental pillar of a marriage) and meeting your expectations as a wife, then you are absolutely justified in withholding your attention, affection or commitment.

You’re clearly not ready to consider removing your commitment, so we’ll leave that one be for now.
You can adjust your affection and attention.

I’m not suggesting you should act like a mean ahole, and treat her with hostility - that would be counterproductive.
But you should absolutely dial back your displays of affection to her. Be pleasant and fun and mildly affectionate, but that’s it.

Attention is a big one for most women. They crave it in the way you crave sex and physical intimacy.
You need to start removing your attention if she’s not meeting your needs.
Again, don’t be a jerk about it, just find other things to do that take your time/attention away from her.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Of course it might be prudent to remember that there are no chapters in The Bible written by women.


We don’t need any more recipes anyways....


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Of course it might be prudent to remember that there are no chapters in The Bible written by women.


Stories about grinding corn meal all day don’t sell as well as miracle fairy tales .....

OK I’m done ... I promise 😁


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Of course it might be prudent to remember that there are no chapters in The Bible written by women.


Not in those days.

Matters not.

Those Nuns of HIS do HIS bidding, and write their own rules for boys, soon to be men.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> She seems to enjoy it and says she's satisfied. Sex is good when we have it. It's just not nearly as often as I want.


Your response can be as simple as:

"Let's do this again tomorrow night. I'll have a surprise for you and you'll love it. "

You really do need to stop outright asking for sex if that's what you're doing now, it's a big turn off, like you're begging. 

Imagine what her fantasies are when she's using her vibrator.. it's not her hubby asking if he can have sex with her, maybe / please.

You need to figure out how to make it known you will be having more of what she evidently enjoys, without threatening to pull back on your love for her.

To that end, finish Athol's book quickly, asap. Seriously.

I would go against what's been said re immediate action. Get the tools, insights and knowledge before you talk and do any more. You'll likely only do damage acting the same way as you have been, and being more demanding on top of it, as you have already implied is your concern. I agree with that concern of yours. Stop floundering first, learn to swim a length, then jump back in with assurance. Read the book.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> What I'm taking away from this so far...
> 1. Figure out what she doesn't like about me and try to work on improving that.
> 2. Hit the gym.
> 3. I've got some suggested reading material. I already started the Athol Kay book a few days ago. Still in the beginning part discussing the biology stuff.
> 4. Have another hard conversation about our sex life. Do I bring up the vibrator use at all? I really don't know how she'll react.


Before starting on this journey, you have to ask yourself one important question:

Are you prepared to lose your marriage over lack of sex?

I ask for these reasons:

1. If you aren't willing to lose your marriage over it, perhaps the problem is not as significant as you initially thought.

2. Your marriage may already be over in all ways but on paper. My suggestions will accelerate the process of identifying if it is or not.

Here is what I would propose you do:

1. Have a final talk with her, or at least the final talk initiated by you. Ideally, she will eventually approach you, but that may or may not happen. But keep in mind that you have talked to her multiple times, with her response somewhere between stonewalling or anger.

In this talk, you must be cool, firm, and dispassionate, as if you were discussing a business disagreement with a colleague. Simply say this:

"You have made it clear that the meeting of emotional needs is optional in our relationship. I have also decided to embrace this position."

Somewhere in this conversation, she will likely say this is all about sex. Your response?

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

What you are doing is stonewalling her any time she tries to mischaracterize your position. She wants to incorporate hysterics? You leave the house and go do something you want to do. 

On that note, find a hobby that takes you out of the house. Be gone more often. Not only does this reinforce that you are no longer at her neck and call when she is unable to reciprocate, but she also actually has the space to miss you.

In the meantime, you need to make a list of everything you think you do for her...back rubs, squishing spiders, opening jars, foot rubs, cooking of her favorite meals, etc. Next, take that same list and circle the things you would stop doing if she were to suddenly pass away. The circled items are now the things you do exclusively for her as opposed to the things you do for her AND the kids, such as laundry, cooking, cleaning the house, etc.

The circled items are the things you stop doing entirely. No more. When she asks, you again tell her that you are embracing the position of not prioritizing your spouse in the relationship. 

One of the things I stopped doing for my wife was calling to see if she needed something while on the way home. She loves it when I do that, and she came to expect it. So I stopped it, and she flipped out over it.

My response? 

"You look just like...no, you are the spitting image of the woman who told me what I wanted in our relationship wasn't important. If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me."

Then I went and did something else I wanted without regard to her.

See how that works?

Many will say this is retaliation...her included. What you are actually doing is prioritizing yourself, without regard to her. 

This will make things worse before they get better. It also may end your marriage. 

Case in point. If she accepts your dialing back of marital services with no complaint, your marriage is likely already over. If that is the case, all this will do is accelerate the process.

Lastly, while all of this is ongoing, focus on being the best version of you, for you. Required reading:

No More Mister Nice Guy
Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s

Exercise, exercise, exercise. 

Get involved with something competitive if it suits you. That will be your go to when you need space and distance. 

That is all for now. I will post more later. Time for mini golf with the fam...lol. 


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cici1990 (Feb 22, 2021)

Maybe this has already been asked:

Does your wife normally have orgasms during sex with you? I mean does she have real ones, not fake. 

Orgasms achieved with a toy, well, sometimes they cannot be beat, except for orgasms with a toy AND a real live penis combined….but only if it’s the right kind of toy that can easily be used while somebody is thrusting in and out of you and will hit the right spot ….not all vibrators are designed equally or work well with partnered sex. 

Maybe she didn’t like the vibrator at first, it just didn’t really click (can be trickier to use when trying to use it during sex with another person). Then she decided to try it one day and realized wow, this is great. You’ve said before it’s difficult to get her to open up and talk about these things, so maybe she just doesn’t know how to bring it up with your or is embarrassed to admit she’s been masturbating and loving it. My real concern would be if she doesn’t normally have orgasms during partnered sex, in which case yeah getting off with a vibe will be a lot more appealing because having sex without getting off isn’t really fun and the effort isn’t worth it. I’d never have sex with a human partner if I never came during the sex. It just wouldn’t be worth the effort to me, no matter what sort of loving feelings I had toward the person. 

For me, a sex toy devotee, when I want to get off with my favorite toy it’s a totally different desire than wanting to have sex with a real live person. With another human you have to also be concerned about their pleasure. Alone with a toy you can lay still, get it right where it feels good, take your time, no other concerns. I’m just saying that for many people, especially women who need some more external stimulation to orgasm in many cases, the desire to have a solo pleasure session and fantastic orgasm is often not the same sort of desire you feel when you want to have sex with another human. 

So I see no issue in you wanting more frequent sex with your wife and wanting her to open up and even share what she’s been up to with her toy. I just think some men here cannot comprehend that sometimes a toy is WAY better than sex with a human. You cannot understand the power of a clit sucker guys. Way better than any mouth I’ve ever felt and I don’t have to worry about the other person, returning the favor, nothing. 

OP, have you tried a quality vibrating **** ring? This is what I’d suggest you do with her.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

@Thunderbird read Athol's Kay book and hit the gym four days a week and start lifting.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> You don’t understand.
> You (as a man) control 3 primary levers in a relationship. Your attention, your affection and your commitment.
> And your attention, affection and commitment aren’t free.
> 
> ...


Ok, I've been advised in other parts of this thread to flirt more, show affection during the day and initiate more.

Here I'm being advised to cut back on showing her attention and affection since she's denying me sex.

What gives? Aren't these opposing?

As far as holding back attention and affection, there's not much to cut back on. She likes to spend the evening by herself working on her hobbies and watching shows. She doesn't really act like she craves attention.

I used to write her love notes fairly often and things like that. She actually told me the love notes started to be too much, so, I don't do that much anymore.


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## DoctorManhattan (Jan 22, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> Not being defensive, just pointing out that I believe God wants us to love our spouse even if they don't reciprocate the way we want.


If you're going to bring God into this..in the beginning Adam was alone, and God made him a partner. For what, so she could ignore her husband and read her book every single night and forget about loving and bonding w her partner?
I think not. Bible says husband is to "enjoy his wife"..
What about her duties and responsibilities as per God's word?

You gotta do a 180. We come hear for advice and mostly everyone tries to help.

You can't expect different results if you keep doing ....well, you know the rest. 

Just find your happiness. Life is too dang short to be miserable.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> Ok, I've been advised in other parts of this thread to flirt more, show affection during the day and initiate more.
> 
> Here I'm being advised to cut back on showing her attention and affection since she's denying me sex.
> 
> ...


Everyone will offer different advice. 

Take what you will, and leave the rest. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

DoctorManhattan said:


> If you're going to bring God into this..in the beginning Adam was alone, and God made him a partner. For what, so she could ignore her husband and read her book every single night and forget about loving and bonding w her partner?
> I think not. Bible says husband is to "enjoy his wife"..
> What about her duties and responsibilities as per God's word?
> 
> ...


Have you ever heard most women's response to that perspective?

I happen to believe it's very biblical, but, boy if you want to get called a chauvinist start mentioning stuff like that. It's one place the church in general does a bad job of teaching.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> Have you ever heard most women's response to that perspective?
> 
> I happen to believe it's very biblical, but, boy if you want to get called a chauvinist start mentioning stuff like that. It's one place the church in general does a bad job of teaching.


Yep. And conveniently hypocritical in that nobody is entitled to a woman's body (nor should they be) but will raise holy hell when you stop listening/helping/etc. A woman is not entitled to your mind/body/effort in any form, either.

Simply apply that logic to your situation and the solution begins to present itself. 

Every day, we have a choice to either invest in our marriage...or not. Your wife is not the only one with that choice. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DoctorManhattan (Jan 22, 2019)

farsidejunky said:


> Yep. And conveniently hypocritical in that nobody is entitled to a woman's body (nor should they be) but will raise holy hell when you stop listening/helping/etc. A woman is not entitled to your mind/body/effort in any form, either.
> 
> Simply apply that logic to your situation and the solution begins to present itself.
> 
> ...


Exactly.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> Ok, I've been advised in other parts of this thread to flirt more, show affection during the day and initiate more.
> 
> Here I'm being advised to cut back on showing her attention and affection since she's denying me sex.
> 
> ...


1. It’s tactical and fluid.
Yes, you flirt with her leading up to and when initiating sex. When she denies you, you pleasantly remove your attention.
And you don’t offer her that attention again until you are planning to initiate sex that day.

2. So it sounds like you’re saying she doesn’t even want your affection and attention. If that’s the case you’re done.
Start doing a hard 180 (look it up), plan your exit and prepare for what’s next. Maybe through the process, she miraculously comes around, maybe not. But either way you’ll be better off and better prepared for what’s next.

The go plan is the same as the stay plan.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> Before starting on this journey, you have to ask yourself one important question:
> 
> Are you prepared to lose your marriage over lack of sex?
> 
> ...


Nuclear option. I'll be honest, that sounds like asking to end the marriage. I'll have to think on this advice for a while.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Cici1990 said:


> Maybe this has already been asked:
> 
> Does your wife normally have orgasms during sex with you? I mean does she have real ones, not fake.
> 
> ...


I honestly don't know for sure. She seems like she does sometimes, but, I asked her once if she did. She said she didn't know for sure, but, wasn't hung up on it. Said she enjoyed the sex we had and didn't want to get caught up worrying about it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Thunderbird said:


> Nuclear option. I'll be honest, that sounds like asking to end the marriage. I'll have to think on this advice for a while.


You already tried the nice way, where did that get you?

The time when I made headway was when like farside said I was ready to leave. 

I told my wife well she can work on having sex more with me, or not, and if not that’s fine. That’s it, I get it. Maybe you don’t want to and that’s ok. It will cause a problem for us being married and living together unless you work with me on it.

Over a year later and I’m hitting it 5+ times a week.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> I honestly don't know for sure. She seems like she does sometimes, but, I asked her once if she did. She said she didn't know for sure, but, wasn't hung up on it. Said she enjoyed the sex we had and didn't want to get caught up worrying about it.


Then she was nicely telling you no. She didn't orgasm. Many women don't and most men honestly just don't care enough to want to know. It does make having sex alot less fun. Yes there are women who do it for their husbands because they 'want a connect' BS men want sex for orgasms and when women want sex it's mostly for orgasms.

Most women have trouble expressing or even knowing what they want and many would have a really hard time openly using a vibrator during sex We are very much in our own heads and have to get out to really enjoy sex.

Sounds to me like partnered sex isn't really doing it for her.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Thunderbird said:


> She said she didn't know for sure…


Oh man, just escaped my pay grade.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

I think the only way you can fix things is to tell your wife that the lack of sex is a deal-breaker; that you'll either divorce or find someone else that meets your needs.

You can't nice her into having sex with you. Going to the gym and doing the dishes isn't going to get you more nooky.

Your wife realizes that you aren't going to do anything about it and she is fine with the status quo. You don't seem comfortable taking the necessary steps to change things (putting your foot down). So, my advice is to just live with it. Nothing anyone says here is going to give you the magical, non-confrontational bullet to fix things.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> I honestly don't know for sure. She seems like she does sometimes, but, I asked her once if she did. She said she didn't know for sure, but, wasn't hung up on it. Said she enjoyed the sex we had and didn't want to get caught up worrying about it.


Oh ****. Look, you need to build yourself up across multiple areas man. It’s actually not as daunting as it probably seems, but you’re going to need to do a lot of reading in a few areas, and maybe get some more direct coaching / guidance.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Then she was nicely telling you no. She didn't orgasm. Many women don't and most men honestly just don't care enough to want to know. It does make having sex alot less fun. Yes there are women who do it for their husbands because they 'want a connect' BS men want sex for orgasms and when women want sex it's mostly for orgasms.
> 
> Most women have trouble expressing or even knowing what they want and many would have a really hard time openly using a vibrator during sex We are very much in our own heads and have to get out to really enjoy sex.
> 
> Sounds to me like partnered sex isn't really doing it for her.


This is an excellent point.

"Wife, I need to know something, and it is extremely important that you are honest with me...even if it may hurt."

Then ask her.

And no matter what she tells you, do not lose your cool, or allow your hurt to interrupt what she is telling you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> Nuclear option. I'll be honest, that sounds like asking to end the marriage. I'll have to think on this advice for a while.


It is a way to end the marriage. 
You certainly might get more sex.
You might get a hit the road.
You might get sex for a time from a woman who feels threatened but has children or something else she needs to take care of so she stay the whole time resenting you. Then bam walk a way wife when you think everything is going well.

It definately will change something if you withdraw affection and threaten divorce if she doesn't step it up.

The people giving you that advice are willing for your marriage to end. Are you?

On the other hand nothing will change if nothing changes.

I'd recommend other approaches but I'm not an expert on getting wives to have sex.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> This is an excellent point.
> 
> "Wife, I need to know something, and it is extremely important that you are honest with me...even if it may hurt."
> 
> ...


And I'm hear to say the same women who love you and don't want to hurt your feelings will say sure. Yeah I come all the time. Society has trained us just for that. The male ego needs protecting.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> And I'm hear to say the same women who love you and don't want to hurt your feelings will say sure. Yeah I come all the time. Society has trained us just for that. The male ego needs protecting.


Yep.

To everyone's detriment. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> And I'm hear to say the same women who love you and don't want to hurt your feelings will say sure. Yeah I come all the time. Society has trained us just for that. The male ego needs protecting.


It took some prodding over a period of time and finding the right way to talk about it, but I think I got my wife to be honest about it. She does not orgasm all the time, and she swears it isn't that important to her. At the time she said about 30-40% of the time she did. I was disappointed a bit, but I was glad to know so I could try to do something about it. Now if I can't get her there during "regular" sex she has a standing offer from me to help her finish. Lucky for me that I get lots of opportunities to practice.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Yep.
> 
> To everyone's detriment.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


True but you can't run before you walk. 

So just sitting down and saying I need you to tell me the truth let's talk about sex. Most likely will put her on the defensive and women's training will kick in. 

But I would hope most people know that if a woman can't tell if she orgasmed it's because she didn't.
Also it may mean she has never really experienced a good one.

Women experience levels of orgasm. I know when I was younger I experienced some 1 or 2's on a 10 scale. I didn't know they went to 10. My husband found 11. But it didn't happen over night. I'm fairly open about sex and don't generally lie. But even I have trouble just saying everything. I also don't think saying everything and facing everything is something every relationship is ready to handle.

So what's ideal may not be what works.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> It is a way to end the marriage.
> You certainly might get more sex.
> You might get a hit the road.
> You might get sex for a time from a woman who feels threatened but has children or something else she needs to take care of so she stay the whole time resenting you. Then bam walk a way wife when you think everything is going well.
> ...


In fairness, this is exactly how I improved my marriage. A few others on this site have as well.

Maybe we are outliers.

But you can't argue with what my wife and I have. She is happy with our marriage and our sex life. She respects me now, when it was anything but. We are healthy, happy, and adventurous. 

That said, we never had problems in the O department. That is something that often does not occur to me for that reason. I am glad you brought it up. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> In fairness, this is exactly how I improved my marriage. A few others on this site have as well.
> 
> Maybe we are outliers.
> 
> ...


Sure that's what I said. I don't have experience in this. 

However, this approach is also a way to divorce. You didn't care. You were ready for a better sex life or divorce. That isn't true for everyone. Also not all women are the same. So they aren't all going to react to affection being withdrawn by double down.

We have also had plenty of men with walk away wives come and talk about how they didn't see it coming. That they had problems 5-10 years back and had the 'talk' and their wive stepped up and because they were having regular sex they thought everything was ok. Those experiences should count too.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Then she was nicely telling you no. She didn't orgasm. Many women don't and most men honestly just don't care enough to want to know. It does make having sex alot less fun. Yes there are women who do it for their husbands because they 'want a connect' BS men want sex for orgasms and when women want sex it's mostly for orgasms.
> 
> Most women have trouble expressing or even knowing what they want and many would have a really hard time openly using a vibrator during sex We are very much in our own heads and have to get out to really enjoy sex.
> 
> Sounds to me like partnered sex isn't really doing it for her.


I'm aware that answer meant she hadn't orgasmed. But she also told me she didn't want to get hung up on it because she was satisfied with what we have. I know better than to continue to press the issue because she'll feel pressured and that's not going to help.

And yes, I know she probably didn't want to hurt my ego.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> I'm aware that answer meant she hadn't orgasmed. But she also told me she didn't want to get hung up on it because she was satisfied with what we have. I know better than to continue to press the issue because she'll feel pressured and that's not going to help.
> 
> And yes, I know she probably didn't want to hurt my ego.


So have you researched and studied multiple sources on sexual techniques to better get her off? 
Usually oral works really well for example, even if she struggles to get off with PIV sex. Have you studied and applied new techniques on her?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thunderbird said:


> Nuclear option. I'll be honest, that sounds like asking to end the marriage. I'll have to think on this advice for a while.


The problem is that your wife knows you really want sex from her, she feels under pressure and she hates the whole thing... by doing the nuclear option, she will give you duty sex. It will be more frequent, but the quality will be bad and she will resent you. Is that what you want? I might be wrong, but from what I can read here, she is far gone, hence the vibrator. She'd rather use that than have sex with you. Sorry.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Most of your answers indicate your not willing to do the hard things and have those difficult talks. It is pretty much written on the wall what results you will get. Just like @farsidejunky said .... your not ready yet.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> The problem is that your wife knows you really want sex from her, she feels under pressure and she hates the whole thing... by doing the nuclear option, she will give you duty sex. It will be more frequent, but the quality will be bad and she will resent you. Is that what you want? I might be wrong, but from what I can read here, she is far gone, hence the vibrator. She'd rather use that than have sex with you. Sorry.


Not true ... I chose to drop the atom bomb. Things over the last 4 or 5 years have been worlds better for both my wife and I. Duty sex is what you get in his current situation and that’s exactly what people who aren’t willing to drop the bomb will ever understand.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Mr.Married said:


> For a guy with two blown marriages you sure can hit the nail right on the head. You should be a marriage rock star by my thoughts












Apparently I'm better on color commentary, than actually playing the game. But I've certainly learned a thing or two, and have come away from both with my self-esteem, and self-respect intact.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> Not true ... I chose to drop the atom bomb. Things over the last 4 or 5 years have been worlds better for both my wife and I. Duty sex is what you get in his current situation and that’s exactly what people who aren’t willing to drop the bomb will ever understand.


Not true? Who says? I dropped the bomb, I got duty sex. You dropped the bomb, you didn't get it. Who's right? In my experience - and from what I can read on TAM - when a turnaround happens is because the issue wasn't a major one. I don't know what your "issue" was. Here, his wife is using a vibrator instead of having sex with her husband. Sounds pretty bad to me. You need to be very careful with the nuclear option.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Not true? Who says? I dropped the bomb, I got duty sex. You dropped the bomb, you didn't get it. Who's right? In my experience - and from what I can read on TAM - when a turnaround happens is because the issue wasn't a major one. I don't know what your "issue" was. Here, his wife is using a vibrator instead of having sex with her husband. Sounds pretty bad to me. You need to be very careful with the nuclear option.


I didn’t have any big issues and it doesn’t sound like this guy does either.

With that said: The success of the nuclear option is also directly related to your income level. I make good money and the guys that usually had success with that option also make good money. Mama doesn’t want to be poor.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Not true? Who says? I dropped the bomb, I got duty sex. You dropped the bomb, you didn't get it. Who's right? In my experience - and from what I can read on TAM - when a turnaround happens is because the issue wasn't a major one. I don't know what your "issue" was. Here, his wife is using a vibrator instead of having sex with her husband. Sounds pretty bad to me. You need to be very careful with the nuclear option.


And furthermore you didn’t do nuclear anything because your sex life is nonexistent and your still married


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> And furthermore you didn’t do nuclear anything because your sex life is nonexistent and your still married


As I suspected, your issue was minor...  And no, I did the nuclear thing and I got duty sex. Then, when I wasn't needed, I got offloaded. This is what I got with the nuclear option. Yes, I'm still married, but I have nothing to do with my wife any more. I don't want another relationship and I don't want to be poor by divorcing my wife. Who cares. As you can see from the flag, I'm in Italy right now. If she wants to be alone, fine by me! I'm done with her and her problems.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

So, I'm working through the Athol Kay book. Between that and the other recommended articles it will take some time to finish.

Should I stop attempting to initiate sex at all? I understand many here are saying don't verbally ask, just initiate, but, should just stop trying anything?

What is confusing is asking if she wanted to have sex was her suggestion.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> So, I'm working through the Athol Kay book. Between that and the other recommended articles it will take some time to finish.
> 
> Should I stop attempting to initiate sex at all? I understand many here are saying don't verbally ask, just initiate, but, should just stop trying anything?
> 
> What is confusing is asking if she wanted to have sex was her suggestion.


Don't stop initiating. 

And she's got your number, she'll keep saying do this/that because she knows she can create confusion and delay in your mind by keeping you dancing. Dance boy.

A W can never, ever be negotiated successfully into having sex even if she's telling you she can. She's got a different plan and you're her entertainment.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Not true? Who says? I dropped the bomb, I got duty sex. You dropped the bomb, you didn't get it. Who's right? In my experience - and from what I can read on TAM - when a turnaround happens is because the issue wasn't a major one. I don't know what your "issue" was. Here, his wife is using a vibrator instead of having sex with her husband. Sounds pretty bad to me. You need to be very careful with the nuclear option.


It is true that the nuclear option is not the only factor in the equation.

That said, my situation was significant, and it did not lead to 'duty sex'. 

Rationalizing away someone's success by labeling it as 'not that bad' is really just a mechanism to justify doing nothing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> So, I'm working through the Athol Kay book. Between that and the other recommended articles it will take some time to finish.
> 
> Should I stop attempting to initiate sex at all? I understand many here are saying don't verbally ask, just initiate, but, should just stop trying anything?
> 
> What is confusing is asking if she wanted to have sex was her suggestion.


Yeah it’s goal posting and hoop jumping. If you reach the goal she will just move the goal post. I would no longer listen to what she says.... just my opinion (and what worked for me)


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> So, I'm working through the Athol Kay book. Between that and the other recommended articles it will take some time to finish.
> 
> Should I stop attempting to initiate sex at all? I understand many here are saying don't verbally ask, just initiate, but, should just stop trying anything?
> 
> What is confusing is asking if she wanted to have sex was her suggestion.


What is your plan for now? It is hard to advise you without knowing that. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> Yeah it’s goal posting and hoop jumping. If you reach the goal she will just move the goal post. I would no longer listen to what she says.... just my opinion (and what worked for me)


OP, read and re-read this.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The problem is, it sounds like it's not just sex with a disconnect, it sounds like she prefers to be disconnected from you in many ways (wants to do her own thing in the evenings, doesn't want flirting, doesn't even want letters/cards from you).

Her main want from you is for you to leave her alone.

That being the case, I don't see how any of the suggested "programs" are going to work at improving the marriage. She flat out isn't interested in being close to you, in any way. What's there to work with?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> So, I'm working through the Athol Kay book. Between that and the other recommended articles it will take some time to finish.
> 
> Should I stop attempting to initiate sex at all? I understand many here are saying don't verbally ask, just initiate, but, should just stop trying anything?
> 
> What is confusing is asking if she wanted to have sex was her suggestion.


I would only stop initiating long enough to get a plan together. If that means you wait until you are done reading through everything and doing any more research on the subject, fine, but don't wait too long to take some kind of action. 

Of course asking her if she wants sex was her suggestion. Why would she suggest anything else? There is nothing confusing about that at all. She is the gate keeper, has the power and "no" is an easy answer because it means she doesn't have to do anything. Of course she wants it to be like that. Other than an undetermined amount of vibrator use, she seems to have responsive desire, not spontaneous desire. That means she needs to be turned on by something to want sex. You need to make that something be you. 

I think there are two big things you need to figure out how to do. 

Talk to her about YOUR feelings and how you value sexual intimacy with her, that it is integral for YOU in your marriage. Let her know you desire her. She can't legitimately argue that your feelings aren't real or that your desires for your marriage aren't real. And, you need her to help you feel whole. 

Skillfully initiate sex. Asking for sex always turns into a form of begging and is not sexy or desirable in any way. The initiation doesn't start when you spontaneously get a boner an hour before bedtime. If you want it you have to play the long game. Eventually it becomes a natural part of how you interreact with your wife. You also have to learn to skillfully accept and react to rejection. None of us bat 1000 when it comes to initiating sex, so you have to be ready for failure. Maybe learn from it and move on.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> The problem is, it sounds like it's not just sex with a disconnect, it sounds like she prefers to be disconnected from you in many ways (wants to do her own thing in the evenings, doesn't want flirting, doesn't even want letters/cards from you).
> 
> *Her main want from you is for you to leave her alone.*
> 
> That being the case, I don't see how any of the suggested "programs" are going to work at improving the marriage. She flat out isn't interested in being close to you, in any way. What's there to work with?


The bolded quote is an important point. During your inevitable next discussion on needs, you may even include that. 

"Wife, as near as I can tell, the only thing you really want or need from me is to leave you alone. What exactly is going on?"

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Livvie said:


> The problem is, it sounds like it's not just sex with a disconnect, it sounds like she prefers to be disconnected from you in many ways (wants to do her own thing in the evenings, doesn't want flirting, doesn't even want letters/cards from you).
> 
> Her main want from you is for you to leave her alone.
> 
> That being the case, I don't see how any of the suggested "programs" are going to work at improving the marriage. She flat out isn't interested in being close to you, in any way. What's there to work with?


I completely understand what you are saying. There appears to be a total lack of that kind of desire. Regardless, I think that is where a lot of the suggestions in the Kay Athol book come in. You contently go about improving yourself in plain sight of your wife. You make sure she notices, but you don't really want to flaunt it. You aren't doing it for the sole purpose of trying to get sex from her either. That is the desired side effect, but you are simply working on improving you. Then you combine that with what I would call re-courting your wife. It must be done with the right mix of "alpha" and "beta" traits. The great thing about this strategy is you have absolutely nothing to lose. Hopefully it re-sparks your wife's desire and attraction to you, but if not you come out the other side a better person. Then you are well positioned to do what you want. Maybe you decide to stick with the marriage and status quo or maybe you decide it is time for a major change. Either way you end with a better version of yourself.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> What is your plan for now? It is hard to advise you without knowing that.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Plan for now is the reading, working out. I'm going to wait to talk to her about this issue for now. I am considering looking into counseling for us because I think I'll just run into the same resistance as before. We are already looking for a counselor for one of our son's who has anxiety and attention issues. Maybe we can find one that handles marriage counseling as well.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Livvie said:


> That being the case, I don't see how any of the suggested "programs" are going to work at improving the marriage. She flat out isn't interested in being close to you, in any way. What's there to work with?


In that case the point of the program is to develop self worth, improve your sexual market value, and leave her behind while you step out and make a new one with her in the rear view mirror.

If you actually do what Kay’s or DSO’s book suggests when you’re in the right place mentally and have been executing on your MAP (male action plan) it will be clear that you either need to leave or things are fixed.

There isn’t a middle outcome where it’s kind of the same but she throws you an extra bone every once in a while.

Developing self worth and improving yourself are good goals period, but in this case they help the guy to see he has value and he doesn’t have to be stuck in the situation he’s in.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> Plan for now is the reading, working out. I'm going to wait to talk to her about this issue for now. I am considering looking into counseling for us because I think I'll just run into the same resistance as before. We are already looking for a counselor for one of our son's who has anxiety and attention issues. Maybe we can find one that handles marriage counseling as well.


Stay busy as well. Give her the space to actually miss you. 

But yes, I would continue to initiate, if for nothing more than helping to bring the issue to a crescendo. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In the OP’s case he’s got another serious problem in that his wife isn’t having orgasms. That’s kind of outside the scope of what Kay or DSO’s book are about, the assumption with those “plans” is that your sex life was adequate with this person in the past.

In this case, for her it was probably never amazing.

In this case you might be better served seeing a sex therapist; rather getting her to see one to try and become orgasmic.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> It is true that the nuclear option is not the only factor in the equation.
> 
> That said, my situation was significant, and it did not lead to 'duty sex'.
> 
> ...


Well, you are not the owner of absolute truth. Nobody is. But I'm happy for you.


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## Trustless Marriage (Mar 1, 2021)

I think masturbating for some people is just easier and can be more fulfilling. She knows what she wants and sometimes if you want things done the right way you do it yourself lol. Think about it - when my wife and I have sex there is showering then the kissing then cuddling then the foreplay then sex. By the time we are done, 1-2 hours have gone by. It's quite the production. But with masturbation you don't have all that. I would love it if I knew my wife masturbated but I know she doesn't. She was taught that it was dirty. I know - this is coming from a woman who had ONS's, sex on the first date, etc. How she is hung up on this I have no idea. I think it would be sexy but she doesn't like toys which is a huge bummer for me (I have a box full waiting to use on her if she ever decides she is ready).

However, like some others said, she has to balance that with you. If masturbating completely replaced you then you definitely need to talk about it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Trustless Marriage said:


> I think masturbating for some people is just easier and can be more fulfilling. She knows what she wants and sometimes if you want things done the right way you do it yourself lol. Think about it - when my wife and I have sex there is showering then the kissing then cuddling then the foreplay then sex. By the time we are done, 1-2 hours have gone by. It's quite the production. But with masturbation you don't have all that. I would love it if I knew my wife masturbated but I know she doesn't. She was taught that it was dirty. I know - this is coming from a woman who had ONS's, sex on the first date, etc. How she is hung up on this I have no idea. I think it would be sexy but she doesn't like toys which is a huge bummer for me (I have a box full waiting to use on her if she ever decides she is ready).
> 
> However, like some others said, she has to balance that with you. If masturbating completely replaced you then you definitely need to talk about it.


Yeah but this man is certainly not ever getting (he should correct me if I'm wrong) _1 to 2 hour long sex sessions_ of showering kissing cuddling foreplay and sex. Not ever. 

See the difference from your relationship?


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> In the OP’s case he’s got another serious problem in that his wife isn’t having orgasms. That’s kind of outside the scope of what Kay or DSO’s book are about, the assumption with those “plans” is that your sex life was adequate with this person in the past.
> 
> In this case, for her it was probably never amazing.
> 
> In this case you might be better served seeing a sex therapist; rather getting her to see one to try and become orgasmic.


I think she'd view suggesting sex therapy as suggesting there's something wrong with her and put her on the defensive. Also, we are active in our church (I know many here will probably scoff) and she'd probably feel embarrassed and view it as dirty.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Thunderbird said:


> Several years ago (maybe before kids) I bought a small vibrator to use on my wife during sex. She said it didn't seem to do much for her, so we put in her nightstand and left it.
> 
> We've been married 23 years. Early in our marriage, sex was 2-3 times a week. Our sexual frequency dropped to once a week after kid #1, same after kid #2. Over the last few years, we've gotten to about once a month. This is not by my choice.
> 
> ...


You need to talk with her. Why the vibe and not you? or incorporate it into your lovemaking, that'd be fun. We do. Good luck


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thunderbird said:


> I think she'd view suggesting sex therapy as suggesting there's something wrong with her and put her on the defensive. Also, we are active in our church (I know many here will probably scoff) and she'd probably feel embarrassed and view it as dirty.


You keep changing and adding info to steadily defend her. The answer is you're really not committed to bringing the problems to a head or do the work to change and improve.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

So you are married to an active church woman and have a difficult child .... it is starting to add up.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> So you are married to an active church woman and have a difficult child .... it is starting to add up.


I'm missing your point, what is it that's starting to add up?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Thunderbird said:


> I think she'd view suggesting sex therapy as suggesting there's something wrong with her and put her on the defensive. Also, we are active in our church (I know many here will probably scoff) and she'd probably feel embarrassed and view it as dirty.


Probably, however there is something wrong which she may have never had an orgasm.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> I think she'd view suggesting sex therapy as suggesting there's something wrong with her and put her on the defensive. Also, we are active in our church (I know many here will probably scoff) and she'd probably feel embarrassed and view it as dirty.


There is something wrong in the relationship. There is. Otherwise you wouldn't be posting onba forum for help. 

Too bad if she's on the defensive. Are you going to let her unhealthy and dysfunctional reactions (on the defensive when you bring up a relationship issue) rule your life and relationship? If so, that's a very unhealthy relationship dynamic.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm missing your point, what is it that's starting to add up?


Maybe it’s church guilt and add in that she is mentally shot/worries with the child situation


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> As you can see from the flag, I'm in Italy right now.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> The vow I took when I got married was to love her through all of life's ups and downs. To cut off my love in retaliation would go against that vow. I feel it's a biblical mandate and I refuse to stop showing love to my wife. If there was cheating involved that's different.


The bottom line is that most women subconsciously want men to take charge.
I've been where you were at. I put up with it for seven years, trying to be the "Good Guy."
One night, she did something to me which I deemed to be very cruel.
At that point, I learned two things: 1) People can only treat you like crap with your permission, and 2) If you truly want a good marriage, you have to be willing to blow it up.

Here is the story:








Why so many sexless marriages?


I admit to being single, but I don’t understand why so many people are in sexless marriages. I was married for 15 years. Lack of sex was never our problem because it was never used as a weapon. It sure seems that many of you have a significant other using it as control by not fulfilling the...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com





Since this happened, I have had as much sex as I have wanted regularly, and Mrs.Tdbo's attitude returned to she was when we were dating. S**t got real for her.

She realized that my position could be summed up with the famous quote from Howard Beale " I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Thunderbird said:


> I honestly don't know for sure. She seems like she does sometimes, but, I asked her once if she did. She said she didn't know for sure, but, wasn't hung up on it. Said she enjoyed the sex we had and didn't want to get caught up worrying about it.


I'm calling BS here on her part, if she is using the vibrator she knows what an orgasm feels like. Unless this was back before she started using it. But she sure knows now!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Knows what it feels like, but it may be taking her knowing what to do with the vibrator to make it happen.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Tdbo said:


> The bottom line is that most women subconsciously want men to take charge.
> I've been where you were at. I put up with it for seven years, trying to be the "Good Guy."
> One night, she did something to me which I deemed to be very cruel.
> At that point, I learned two things: 1) People can only treat you like crap with your permission, and 2) If you truly want a good marriage, you have to be willing to blow it up.
> ...


Wow, great story and example of "going nuclear" with great success.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Always Learning said:


> I'm calling BS here on her part, if she is using the vibrator she knows what an orgasm feels like. Unless this was back before she started using it. But she sure knows now!


The orgasm discussion was early in our marriage, before we had the vibrator. We haven't discussed it seriously since.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Thunderbird said:


> The orgasm discussion was early in our marriage, before we had the vibrator. We haven't discussed it seriously since.


So when you do have sex now do you know if she is orgasming? Will she let you perform oral on her?


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Ursula said:


> I would try to talk to her yet, and tell her that this is really affecting you and your marriage, and that this is something that needs to be worked on. See how she responds; If it's a positive response and she actually steps up, you'll know that she cares about you and the marriage. If she just kind of blows you off, you have your answer: she's just not that into you.


This, right here. I firmly believe that a spouse should do everything in their power to make sure the other spouse is mentally well and not suffering due to the relationship. If you talk to your wife, and she stonewalls you, or anything like that, she's basically telling you your needs in this marriage are unimportant. Think about it, if you were doing something to her to make her uncomfortable and second guessing the marriage and she came to you to talk about it, how would you react? for me, if my wife did that, I would do everything in my power to correct it as i'm sure you would. Shouldn't she do the same? doesn't she at LEAST owe you the duty to TRY and figure it out?

If she won't even try, then you have some tough decisions to make. It's not about the sex, it's about caring for one another.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

I think I've resolved to talk with her this weekend about this. The kids will be home most of the time, so, I have to figure out where to talk, I'm not sure if that's a good idea to have them around.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Mybabysgotit said:


> This, right here. I firmly believe that a spouse should do everything in their power to make sure the other spouse is mentally well and not suffering due to the relationship. If you talk to your wife, and she stonewalls you, or anything like that, she's basically telling you your needs in this marriage are unimportant. Think about it, if you were doing something to her to make her uncomfortable and second guessing the marriage and she came to you to talk about it, how would you react? for me, if my wife did that, I would do everything in my power to correct it as i'm sure you would. Shouldn't she do the same? doesn't she at LEAST owe you the duty to TRY and figure it out?
> 
> If she won't even try, then you have some tough decisions to make. It's not about the sex, it's about caring for one another.


This is a point that always seems to get lost when we talk about sex in marriage. Sex is as important and maybe more important than other needs of a healthy marriage. If one spouse is emotionally unhappy and dissatisfied with the marriage, it doesn't matter what the cause is. It is a problem for the marriage, so it is a problem to be dealt with by BOTH spouses.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> I think I've resolved to talk with her this weekend about this. The kids will be home most of the time, so, I have to figure out where to talk, I'm not sure if that's a good idea to have them around.


Definitely don't want the kids around. They would be took distracting.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

j


Thunderbird said:


> I think I've resolved to talk with her this weekend about this. The kids will be home most of the time, so, I have to figure out where to talk, I'm not sure if that's a good idea to have them around.


Good luck with that. How you approach it and such will make a big difference.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

Always Learning said:


> So when you do have sex now do you know if she is orgasming? Will she let you perform oral on her?


I'll usually ask if she's "good" or if I'm ok to finish. She's not one to verbalize much during sex. Moans increasing volume is usually what happens. She shut down oral several years ago.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> I'll usually ask if she's "good" or if I'm ok to finish. She's not one to verbalize much during sex. Moans increasing volume is usually what happens. She shut down oral several years ago.


So you don't really know. she could be increasing the moans to 'help' you. I also find it amusing how many men seem to 'hold' off. Well some women have trouble with PIV actually doing anything for them (I think last survey it was like 80% of women) so really holding off is just lengthening it. 

Look into a weVibe or some of the other toys that are easy to use during sex.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

See, women can get off in about 2 minutes if they're doing it themselves so that it's done just right and have no distractions, like someone asking them questions or just being there where you have to think about them as well, the key word there being "think" when you need to be zoning out to orgasm.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I can say if you can get her to go vibrator with PIV it can be a magic combo could even be a winning one. My wife wants both at the same time which reminds me I gotta put it on the charger.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> I'll usually ask if she's "good" or if I'm ok to finish. She's not one to verbalize much during sex. Moans increasing volume is usually what happens. *She shut down oral several years ago.*


And you passively accepted this...

The core issue in your marriage is not sex, that’s just a symptom.

It’s clear at this point that your wife has all of the power and control in your marriage. And you have conducted yourself as a weak, passive man, supplicating to her and her whims, and following her around like an affectionate neutered puppy.
You are not the leader in your marriage, your wife is.

As a result, your wife doesn’t respect you at all. Women don’t respect men that they can control. Women don’t respect men they can walk over.
Women respect (and are sexually attracted to) strong men, and despise weak men.
She knows (or feels), probably at a limbic level, that if you’re not strong enough to stand up TO her, you’re probably not strong enough to effectively stand up FOR her.

So she is the leader of your marriage. She sets the tone, she makes the rules, she holds the frame and you follow.

Most women (regardless of what the say publicly) do not want to be the leader. They expect their husband to lead, and typically become very resentful when they have to fill that role (regardless of whether they thought they wanted it or not).
And nothing makes a woman dryer and less sexual than feeling stronger and more dominant than her husband.

Based on your posts here, that is the core issue here.

The good news: you control you. And you can change yourself and this dynamic in your marriage, if you choose to.

The less-good news: It’s been 20 years of this. Her perception of you and your marriage dynamic may be too deeply embedded for her to accept or believe a change at this point, even if it’s positive for everyone. Maybe 50/50 if this fixable at this point.

The better news: Even if she doesn’t come around, you can take control of your situation and build yourself into a much better position, whether it’s with her or without.

*edit*
and when you finish Married Mans Sex Life Primer, read it again. Then read No More Mr Nice Guy.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> Ok, I've been advised in other parts of this thread to flirt more, show affection during the day and initiate more.
> 
> Here I'm being advised to cut back on showing her attention and affection since she's denying me sex.
> 
> ...


Some automatically think anyone with the Y chromosome must have done something to solicit this treatment. If you have been a good hubby and busting your balls for her and she has not gotten any better, then all you can do is change how you behave toward her. I think you should initiate and if she gets pissy, so be it. But when it gets to a point you are done, she cant say she did not know.

Like aome said, hit the gym, work on you....do not be at her beacon call. Dont ask for sex....makes yoy look like a child asking for a cookie. If she shuts you down, go do something else, man cave, your shop or even off the property. 

If there are no consequences for her being neglectful to your needs....she sees no pushback from you....why should she change her ways. You cant kiss her ass and nice her back if you are not the one who was the neglectful meanie that pushed her away.

Read No More Mr Nice Guy and MMSLP and fix you. Earlier in my marriage i was about to walk with sex 3x month....was not working for me. Would i have gotten away with speaking to my wife 3x month....hell no she would be pissed. But you are business as usual.

I started to detatch, dropped 50lbs in 5 weeks, hit the weights hard and buffed up. Wife crapped herself....she said she thought i was already gone. I had one foot out the door. We had a real communication breakthrough and she finally understood what intimacy meant to me. That i consider withholding physical intimacy in marriage(where no violence,etc has been a issue) as sexually immoral behavior and Biblical grounds for divorce. 

We have been together 25 yrs and are intimate minimum 5x week unless someone is ill.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Thunderbird said:


> I honestly don't know for sure. She seems like she does sometimes, but, I asked her once if she did. She said she didn't know for sure, but, wasn't hung up on it. Said she enjoyed the sex we had and didn't want to get caught up worrying about it.





Thunderbird said:


> I'm aware that answer meant she hadn't orgasmed. But she also told me she didn't want to get hung up on it because she was satisfied with what we have. I know better than to continue to press the issue because she'll feel pressured and that's not going to help.
> 
> And yes, I know she probably didn't want to hurt my ego.





Thunderbird said:


> I think she'd view suggesting sex therapy as suggesting there's something wrong with her and put her on the defensive. Also, we are active in our church (I know many here will probably scoff) and she'd probably feel embarrassed and view it as dirty.


@Thunderbird if you never ever got to experience an orgasm while sharing sex with your wife, would you want to keep sharing sex with her often or at all?

Not wanting to share sex with someone more frequently when she doesn't get much out of it, is not the behaviour of a person who has something wrong with them. In fact such behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

Just as masturbating on ones own to achieve orgasm, while not wanting to share sex with a partner often or at all. Is also perfectly reasonable when partnered with someone who can't get you there.

That said unless or until you can address that enormous limitation, it is a fools errand to think that dangling the dissolution of your marriage over her head, is going to make her desire more helpings of disappointing sex.


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## Dana W. (Oct 3, 2021)

Sometimes if sex is a draining conversation it’s easier to turn to other things for pleasure. Seems as if the lack of sex has turned her off or perhaps made her feel insecure in some way. Women go through many changes/emotions especially having kids . There is a bigger picture here. Either way I pray you two find time to be open and communicate so that you can attempt to repair things


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

DudeInProgress said:


> And you passively accepted this...
> 
> The core issue in your marriage is not sex, that’s just a symptom.
> 
> ...


This ☝


Divinely Favored said:


> Some automatically think anyone with the Y chromosome must have done something to solicit this treatment. If you have been a good hubby and busting your balls for her and she has not gotten any better, then all you can do is change how you behave toward her. I think you should initiate and if she gets pissy, so be it. But when it gets to a point you are done, she cant say she did not know.
> 
> Like aome said, hit the gym, work on you....do not be at her beacon call. Dont ask for sex....makes yoy look like a child asking for a cookie. If she shuts you down, go do something else, man cave, your shop or even off the property.
> 
> ...


And this ☝


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

OP, how about just embracing her use of a dildo.
get her something like a motorbunny sex device, and learn to enjoy watching her ride it!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> OP, how about just embracing her use of a dildo.
> get her something like a motorbunny sex device, and learn to enjoy watching her ride it!


109% she isn't going to want this joint activity. She wants most, for him to leave her alone.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Thunderbird said:


> I'll usually ask if she's "good" or if I'm ok to finish. She's not one to verbalize much during sex. Moans increasing volume is usually what happens. She shut down oral several years ago.


Why did she shut down oral?

Was it recurring VJ infections?

If so, one cure is to keep everything, every part that touches her... clean.
She, also needs to keep that local area-code (down there) clean.

Use face washing, brushing/toothpaste and Listerine prior to deep muff diving.

If not that, then you need to learn how it is, SHE likes it.


_The Typist-_


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

So how did the talk go?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> So how did the talk go?


It probably went over as well as a turd in the party punch bowl.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 7, 2021)

There's still something to work with. I may stop back with questions, but for now, I have some work to do with the recommended reading and stuff. That's going to keep me busy for a while.

She didn't like tasting herself when we kissed after oral. I was aware of this. We are going to try it again. I'm going to read up on techniques and try to find a solution to the taste thing.

She's started menopause and her hormones are part of the problem.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Really?

"Hormones" are "part" of the problem, ----but she's now into using a vibrator by herself?

What about her distaste in having you interrupt her evening of entertainment, distaste of flirting with you or even receiving cards etc. from you?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Thunderbird said:


> How is the vibrator not part of the discussion? That she's using it shows she has more sex drive than she's led me to believe.


Not necessarily. The desire to have an orgasm is not automatically a desire to have sex.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Trust me when I tell you that not using a vibrator does not equate to leaves more for me. It can just be a tension reliever whereas having sex with a person could be unnecessarily involved for her at that particular time or something. I mean you're having a problem with something that literally everybody does pretty much.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> That is one of my concerns. This has already been a tough topic to discuss. It would seem to be a potential topic. If we talk about our sex life any she says she's just not interested anyone, why the vibrator use? My fear is she'd shut things down completely. I love her, I don't want to push her farther away.


So why not just ask her?
Say " I know that you masturbate, but don't seem to want to have sexual interactions with me. Is there a problem?" You don't have to talk about the vibrator.

I think you SHOULD remind her that your love language is physical touch and without that YOU don't feel close or emotionally bonded to her.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> We read the Love Languages book several years ago when the kids were younger. Not surprisingly, I am physical touch, she is acts of service. She told me then that sex just wasn't a priority for her. She felt she needed to focus on the kids.


You know the point of that book is to find out what the OTHER likes so that you can show them via THEIR love language. She knows that YOU are physical touch, then she should KNOW that THAT is the way YOU get love from her.
For HER, you need to do acts of service.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Thunderbird said:


> As far as holding back attention and affection, there's not much to cut back on. She likes to spend the evening by herself working on her hobbies and watching shows. She doesn't really act like she craves attention.
> 
> I used to write her love notes fairly often and things like that. She actually told me the love notes started to be too much, so, I don't do that much anymore.


So BASICALLY, she wants you as a roomate to pay the bills and help around the house? She has NO romantic or loving impulses towards you?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I don't want to sound pessimistic and all negative, but (negating myself with the "but") men like the OP never get to resolve anything, due to their lack of experience, knowledge, assertiveness, etc., and wife already being for a long while conditioned to her "way" of things. These men just end up going with the flow of things, so as to not make too many waves and somehow accepting the status quo. Hope that in this case I'm wrong but I doubt it. OP needs to reflect on this and see if he is one of those that are able to break the pattern.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Read this: *The Dead Bedroom Fix*


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## wifelife76 (7 mo ago)

Kind of horrified by that one response talking about demanding sex and threatening to leave over not getting enough of it. If I were that dude's wife I'd have left myself when he said that. No threats and no take backs.

That being said, and in response to the question about how the vibrator isn't part of this...if you think wanting sex with another person and just wanting to get off are the same and require the same energy, that may be part of the problem. Sex is a mutual activity where ideally both partners attend to each other's needs. Masturbation is a solo act where you take care of yourself in whatever manner you see fit. Sure, you can draw it out. You can also be quick and efficient about it. There are plenty of nights I need the endorphin rush of a quick orgasm without having the energy for sex with another person. If you're expending no more energy sleeping with your wife than you do jerking off, maybe she's just not in the mood to be your sex toy.

It also could have nothing to do with you at all. Maybe she's not feeling very sexy. Regardless, and you won't like hearing this: your wife doesn't owe you sex, even if she runs those batteries down once a week, every week. Marriage isn't an agreement for regular sex forever. No person owes another person sex for any reason.

So maybe it's time to get some toys for yourself. Make no secret about getting them or enjoying them. Ask if she'd be willing to help you pick one out. Ask if she'd like you to pick out a new one for her. Get off right next to her in bed and have fun doing it. Ask if you can watch her get off. See where things go when you meet her where she is instead of trying to nudge her somewhere she doesn't feel like being.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

wifelife76 said:


> maybe she's just not in the mood to be your sex toy.


You don't know anything about men do you?



wifelife76 said:


> Get off right next to her in bed and have fun doing it. Ask if you can watch her get off. See where things go when you meet her where she is instead of trying to nudge her somewhere she doesn't feel like being.


That's ok if you have a healthy sex life with your partner, but if you don't then you're turning yourself into a Simp doing that!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

wifelife76 said:


> Kind of horrified by that one response talking about demanding sex and threatening to leave over not getting enough of it. If I were that dude's wife I'd have left myself when he said that. No threats and no take backs.
> 
> That being said, and in response to the question about how the vibrator isn't part of this...if you think wanting sex with another person and just wanting to get off are the same and require the same energy, that may be part of the problem. Sex is a mutual activity where ideally both partners attend to each other's needs. Masturbation is a solo act where you take care of yourself in whatever manner you see fit. Sure, you can draw it out. You can also be quick and efficient about it. There are plenty of nights I need the endorphin rush of a quick orgasm without having the energy for sex with another person. If you're expending no more energy sleeping with your wife than you do jerking off, maybe she's just not in the mood to be your sex toy.
> 
> ...


For most guys, forget the demanding type communication but insert honest, positive and encouraging communication, and afterwards if you as W were *not* on board with a healthy and mutually happy sex life with said guy, *he would not only want you to leave but open the door for you to get you gone in a hurry.*

And should.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

wifelife76 said:


> your wife doesn't owe you sex, even if she runs those batteries down once a week, every week.


No one owes sex to anyone, but by the same token in a marriage sex is a given, no sex, no marriage, unless that's what it's agreed.

My first wife (ex) is my ex for that very same reason. She didn't own me any sex, but by the same token I didn't have to a be a pathetic supplicant doormat idiot staying in a marriage were sex wasn't going to be part of the equation, therefore, after three months of no sex I dumped her. Best decision in my life. So, in your philosophy, you don't own any sex to your partner, but by the same token your partner has the same right to dump you and get another partner that wants sex. Simple as that, so don't come with the "no one owes sex to anyone" pathetic excuse.


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## Improvement_always nice! (3 mo ago)

Thunderbird said:


> How is the vibrator not part of the discussion? That she's using it shows she has more sex drive than she's led me to believe.


 Absolutely. Yes... The vibrator has everything to do with it. She's choosing to omit this from, and/or avoid the conversation--likely due to embarrassment, and being discovered. Time for an, albeit nice, super-nice, come to Jesus. Communication, my friend... You need to be candid with her, and request that she do for the same with you. This communication SHOULD NOT be in an aggressive or defensive, and/or antagonistic way... More of a 'please help me to understand you better...' why are you choosing to not be honest (omission) with me? It hurts me, and I love us--and want to keep it that way. We both have needs and desires...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This thread is a year old and the OP hasnt posted since a year ago yesterday.


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## Improvement_always nice! (3 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> This thread is a year old and the OP hasnt posted since a year ago yesterday.


What'ya do? 😂 Hey... Patience... I'm new here! Have a great day!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Improvement_always nice! said:


> What'ya do? 😂 Hey... Patience... I'm new here! Have a great day!


That's cool. We respond to old threads once in a while. No problem.

This thread is now closed.


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