# What came first, the chicken or the egg?



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

You're dating, boyfriend is all doting and kind hearted.. on his best behavior.. sex is amazing and of abundance. You get married, sex starts to wane but what else starts to wane? That same boyfriend's "best behavior", that and the weight of life begins. In steps temper, anger, abuse, cheating, lies, deception, rudeness, health issues, money problems, etc. And someone really wonders where the sex goes?

Anyway, 9 years on and 3 counselors later and a 4th attempt at it tomorrow, 2 divorce attempts.. we are back to the supposed lack of sex debate (once a month maybe). He claims that if the sex was more frequent, that if I met his needs, he would meet mine. You know, I met his sexual needs many many times.. and still mine go unanswered. 

Bottom line, my husband is nothing but selfish and self centered. Difference this time around, I am stronger.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

What exactly are you trying to do.
Do you want to stay with him or not. Does he want to stay with you.
Do you believe a man should be punished with sex.
You have mentioned his needs in practical terms what are yours. You dont mention kids either.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

A lesson for those who are getting married, thinking about getting married, or like me and most of the others here that are married.

We have to work hard at being that same dude (or dudess) that got married. The one that never took our g.f./wife for granted. That treated her like a queen. That listened to her.
that cherished her. that respected her. that always tried to understand her. forget all those things and stop working at it, and you end up here with a sad tale.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

for sure, sometimes even when you do those things, nothing is guaranteed, but if you DO forget them, you're guaranteed to end up here.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If you're determined to not have sex then it's over. Time to let him go. Frankly if sex is something you do for him rather than something you need for yourself, maybe you should be single.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Are you stating that he abused you, cheated on you, and he is wondering where the sex went?

So if you thought you increase the sex, that he would treat you better, but that did not happen, am I correct?

First of all, you increasing the sex did not fix him as he would like you to believe, all that happened is there was more sex, and he is still a dysfunctional person.

Honestly, work on you and improve your situation to leave him. You increased the sex, and he stayed the same. That is not how issues get resolve, and you learned a lesson that he will not treat you any better because well, he is not focused on you and mainly what he gets.

Hmm, have you looked up narcissism?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Sex is not owed, but it is expected.


OP has told her H what she needs from him. He doesn't do it. She, as a result, doesn't feel sexual attraction toward him. 

But what the men are saying is, if the guy gets laid regularly, he will more likely do the things she wants him to do.

OP makes it sound like she has done this. That she has willingly and happily had sex with her H even when she doesn't feel loved in return and yet it hasn't made a difference in his behavior.

Rock on OP! If you give a man your best effort and you're getting lack luster back, it's time for you to scale back and make plans to exit the relationship. 

No one should live their lives measuring the give and take in their marriage quid pro quo style. That just makes everyone a miserly lover and partner.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

WorkingOnMe said:


> If you're determined to not have sex then it's over. Time to let him go. Frankly if sex is something you do for him rather than something you need for yourself, maybe you should be single.


Really? That's what you got from that? I'm a healthy active 40 year old, I look at men and get turned on... I need it too, trust me, I feel good doing it. But in my marriage, that has become the focal point for him.. if I had sex with him more, if I desired him more, if I came onto him more. .. blah blah blah. What about when he was the absolute center of my world? I did those things in abundance. But I got cheated on, lied to, man handled, spit on (literally), and so many other unthinkable things as a "cherished wife" to this man. The sex WAS there and he still messed around on me.. of course there were different excuses back then.

We worked hard to stay together, countless counseling, renewed vows 1 year ago, etc. My desire for him has not returned, in fact its probably worsened due to my sobriety, he continues to lie, be deceptive and not just to me, and each time I find out about a lie or deception, it takes me back to day one. What more can I do for this man?

Unfortunately, either path I choose terrifies me.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Cherry said:


> Really? That's what you got from that? I'm a healthy active 40 year old, I look at men and get turned on... I need it too, trust me, I feel good doing it. But in my marriage, that has become the focal point for him.. if I had sex with him more, if I desired him more, if I came onto him more. .. blah blah blah. What about when he was the absolute center of my world? I did those things in abundance. But I got cheated on, lied to, man handled, spit on (literally), and so many other unthinkable things as a "cherished wife" to this man. The sex WAS there and he still messed around on me.. of course there were different excuses back then.
> 
> We worked hard to stay together, countless counseling, renewed vows 1 year ago, etc. My desire for him has not returned, in fact its probably worsened due to my sobriety, he continues to lie, be deceptive and not just to me, and each time I find out about a lie or deception, it takes me back to day one. What more can I do for this man?
> 
> Unfortunately, either path I choose terrifies me.



You really shouldn't have to wonder about this. If all this is true, he's not even a man. Get a divorce, get some IC, get back on your feet and
Find a real man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Cherry said:


> You're dating, boyfriend is all doting and kind hearted.. on his best behavior.. sex is amazing and of abundance. You get married, sex starts to wane but what else starts to wane? That same boyfriend's "best behavior", that and the weight of life begins. In steps temper, anger, abuse, cheating, lies, deception, rudeness, health issues, money problems, etc. And someone really wonders where the sex goes?
> 
> Anyway, 9 years on and 3 counselors later and a 4th attempt at it tomorrow, 2 divorce attempts.. we are back to the supposed lack of sex debate (once a month maybe). He claims that if the sex was more frequent, that if I met his needs, he would meet mine. You know, I met his sexual needs many many times.. and still mine go unanswered.
> 
> Bottom line, my husband is nothing but selfish and self centered. Difference this time around, I am stronger.


It take two to tango and your husband left the dance floor.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

afab said:


> What exactly are you trying to do.
> Do you want to stay with him or not. Does he want to stay with you.
> Do you believe a man should be punished with sex.
> You have mentioned his needs in practical terms what are yours. You dont mention kids either.


I want the life he tells the counselors he'll give me. I want the life he makes everyone else think we have.. I want to raise our kids in a healthy environment. I want God in the center of our lives. I want him to put me second only to God. I want him to wake up everyday asking himself what can I do today for my wife. I want the life he claims that he wants. The life he tells the counselors and pastor that he'll give me. He plays a spectacular, believable game... in active counseling, life is grand. 

P.S. for anyone curious or concerned, there is no active physical abuse going on. That was approx 6 years ago and not a threat of it since. Not minimizing, it was addressed and it hasn't happened since.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Cherry said:


> I want the life he tells the counselors he'll give me. I want the life he makes everyone else think we have.. I want to raise our kids in a healthy environment. I want God in the center of our lives. I want him to put me second only to God. I want him to wake up everyday asking himself what can I do today for my wife. I want the life he claims that he wants. The life he tells the counselors and pastor that he'll give me. He plays a spectacular, believable game... in active counseling, life is grand.
> 
> P.S. for anyone curious or concerned, there is no active physical abuse going on. That was approx 6 years ago and not a threat of it since. Not minimizing, it was addressed and it hasn't happened since.



My question is can you ever truly put all the lieing, cheating, abuse behind you? That's a lot to live with. Second is, I think a person only has so much hope in them. When your told something over and over, but let down over and over you lose hope eventually. Then your motivation to work on the relationship dies. You no longer have anything to give.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

As a guy, my attitude regarding the frequency of sex in a relationship is important. Everyone wants to feel accepted and loved, and for a man being accepted into your wife for lovemaking is a desired physical (and mental) form of acceptance. Without it we feel rejected. Now I have observed the following for frequency and how it can make a man feel based on the age you described him:

Not enough: (Less than once a week) Very frustrating, with a build up of hormones that makes one unable to think straight.

Enough but wanting more: (approximately once to three times a week) A sweet spot where you adore your wife and pursue her romantically.

Enough to quench overall desire: (almost everyday) Good, but at this point one is satisfied and not necessarily motivated to work on the relationship in a romantic way.

Oversexed/Binged (more than once a day): Build up of hormones released during orgasm cause a man's desire for women to become unappetizing, and the depletion of dopamine for pleasure also leaves one generally irritable. 


So it is not really a chicken or the egg scenario, but more of keeping the nest nice and warm instead of frigid or too hot. 

Hope that helps, 
Badsanta


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

A pouty sulky stubborn arms race it is, then. Trust me no one can out-wait someone who denies their partner sex. They have infinite energy and patience for that. I think your husband knows that and for most part no longer cares what you say you need. For his part he checked out a long time ago so god only knows whether your expectations are realistic or not.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Cherry said:


> I want the life he tells the counselors he'll give me. I want the life he makes everyone else think we have.. I want to raise our kids in a healthy environment. I want God in the center of our lives. I want him to put me second only to God. I want him to wake up everyday asking himself what can I do today for my wife. I want the life he claims that he wants. The life he tells the counselors and pastor that he'll give me.


You can have all those things. Just not with THIS husband. Go find one who can give you what you want. This one is lying about his willingness and ability to do it.


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

Cherry said:


> ...But I got cheated on, lied to, man handled, *spit on (literally), *and so many other unthinkable things as a "cherished wife" to this man.


Damn. 

I was cheated on and stayed for the kids, but this would have had me filing for D the same day. Spitting on someone is pure disrespect. 

Exactly how far does he have to go? Do you have to lose an eye or spend a few months in a coma?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Bottom line, my husband is nothing but selfish and self centered. Difference this time around, I am stronger.


When did you leave him?


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks for the replies you gave me but they dont really answer my questions. I get the feeling that you yourself are not sure. I am also still not sure if that means you already have kids. You mention counselors and a pastor. You also mention that others have no idea of your problems. 
You also mention that you are on number 4.
I gather that they dont believe you. I wonder if they are men or women. The pastor being a man.
And that explains it. I say this often in many of my posts try to get your H on here. It would do more good and is cheaper than all your counselors.
It seems he wants what you call 'best' behavior. At least he tells these people that. 
I just wonder if you really are giving him the chance.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

"Second is, I think a person only has so much hope in them. When your told something over and over, but let down over and over you lose hope eventually. Then your motivation to work on the relationship dies. You no longer have anything to give."

My quoter is broke but this statement is SO true.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

"Second is, I think a person only has so much hope in them. When your told something over and over, but let down over and over you lose hope eventually. Then your motivation to work on the relationship dies. You no longer have anything to give."

My quoter is broke but this statement is SO true.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> It take two to tango and your husband left the dance floor.


I love that!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Cherry said:


> *I want the life he tells the counselors he'll give me. I want the life he makes everyone else think we have.. I want to raise our kids in a healthy environment. I want God in the center of our lives. I want him to put me second only to God. I want him to wake up everyday asking himself what can I do today for my wife. I want the life he claims that he wants. The life he tells the counselors and pastor that he'll give me. He plays a spectacular, believable game... in active counseling, life is grand. *
> 
> P.S. for anyone curious or concerned, there is no active physical abuse going on. That was approx 6 years ago and not a threat of it since. Not minimizing, it was addressed and it hasn't happened since.


Just becuase you want it, it does not mean you will get it. Do you still believe in him? you said he play great game for the sake of appearances. 

How realistic is that scenario? Two divorce talks, four counselors. What else is left there?


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

afab said:


> Thanks for the replies you gave me but they dont really answer my questions. I get the feeling that you yourself are not sure. I am also still not sure if that means you already have kids. You mention counselors and a pastor. You also mention that others have no idea of your problems.
> You also mention that you are on number 4.
> I gather that they dont believe you. I wonder if they are men or women. The pastor being a man.
> And that explains it. I say this often in many of my posts try to get your H on here. It would do more good and is cheaper than all your counselors.
> ...


I need love. I need to be put first. I need to be thanked. I need to be helped (around the house). I need to be acknowledged. I need to be cherished. I DON'T need to be blown up on, cursed at, walked out on, cheated on, lied to, made to feel like my thoughts are worthless or unwarranted or minimal. If I have an issue, I want to be heard, not dismissed, I don't want to be told to get over it, or if you would do this I wouldn't do that, I don't want an excuse for every thing that goes wrong.. it's always somebody else's fault. Never his. 

The counselors were as follows.. a Christian lady, not much resolution there.. we were still actively drinking/drugging. Got sober and sought help from a male pastor.. fantastic source of inspiration & hope.. he wasn't qualified to assist with the in depth help we needed though and after several months, he referred us to another counselor, female. Great, but looking back my H probably BS'd his way through that. And now we are set to see a male counselor. He won't come here to seek help, he says he doesn't read and comprehend well. I guess that's true.

And yes, we have 2 children, 6 year old twins.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

I think I understand. Tell me I am wrong. You want out. But since you are seen as the perfect couple no one will believe you that your H is at fault. You are trying to 'shake' him off, it doesnt work he wont go. 
I would say you should divorce. There is no way he will do all what you want and you wont be satisfied with less. 
Not everyone on here can write well. Is English his first language. There does seem a tit for tat. No marriage can survive that.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

afab said:


> I think I understand. Tell me I am wrong. You want out. But since you are seen as the perfect couple no one will believe you that your H is at fault. You are trying to 'shake' him off, it doesnt work he wont go.
> I would say you should divorce. There is no way he will do all what you want and you wont be satisfied with less.
> Not everyone on here can write well. Is English his first language. There does seem a tit for tat. No marriage can survive that.


But that's just it, he told the last counselor that he will do all those things.. that he will be the doting loving H. She had us do exercises, learning how to be the good H and the good W. I'm not trying to shake him off, I just expected him to be what he promised he would be. Perhaps that's not possible. 

We turned our lives upside down 6 years ago to disolve our marriage and after spending over $5,000 on a mock divorce if you will, we ultimately got back together with those same elusive promises. I know why I did it, I don't believe in divorce and I wanted to try everything within my power to make it work. And he told me he did too. He put on the biggest show when it just could've been over years ago. Why the BS, why? Ugh. 

English is his first language, he just never cares to read, and that's his excuse.. he's not good at it and can't comprehend it anyway.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Cherry said:


> I know why I did it, I don't believe in divorce and I wanted to try everything within my power to make it work.


This is your issue. Why should he change when he knows that you don't believe in divorce? There are no consequences to his actions.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

skype said:


> This is your issue. Why should he change when he knows that you don't believe in divorce? There are no consequences to his actions.


I never said I won't divorce and in fact I've filed twice, so he knows I will do it. But he always came groveling back with promises and counseling attempts, marriage vow renewel, etc. Why would someone do that? And with young children in toe I guess I felt we should try everything we can especially since he's willing as well. There have been consequences, my sexual attraction towards him is destroyed.. my trust is destroyed.. the very foundation of a healthy marriage is destroyed. Why bother coming back if youre told and you know those things will take time to build back up, but then gripe about the lack of sex and the rebuilding process taking too long?


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Why do you stay in this marriage? What are your children learning about love? Make a plan and leave this selfish, lazy, disrespectful excuse for a man.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

Oh I know the answer to this one!

The rooster


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

You don't believe in divorce but you almost divorced 2xs. From the outside looking in everyone thinks you have the perfect marriage. Your husband is selling himself as the wonderful husband/father/provider. He is going to give you all your heart's desire, someday, not sure when.

You should get everything you desire but maybe not with him. This isn't about what the world thinks. this is about you and your kids. How much more are you willing to put up with? How much longer are you going to give him to get it right?

God does not wish his children to be unhappy and used. He wants you to be fulfilled, blessed and living a fruitful life. 

Divorce this man. Work on creating the life you want for yourself and kids. One day it will be all there.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Divorce takes time. File. It's up to him to change your mind with actions, not words. The onus is on him, not you. Your default setting should be "I am leaving". If he can't work a miracle to change your mind--too bad.

With an abusive history, he has a major debt to pay off to you and the relationship. It's not your job to be the debt collector. It's his job to make good on it. If he isn't working to do that, then you know what your next step should be.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks.
You dont believe in divorce and you still try it. You want to stay together maybe because of your children.
Look its not going to work. The only way it will work is if you lower your expectations. Give him more rope. I dont accept your excuse for not bringing him on here. 
No counselor in the world can get him overnight to do the things you want. It may be reasonable but its not practical. 
Look you dont want him. Be honest. If you must stay together then you both have to realize that first.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Cherry said:


> I never said I won't divorce and in fact I've filed twice, so he knows I will do it.


I'm sorry, but no he doesn't. He knows you will threaten, file, then cancel it if he says the right thing. That's what he knows. 

I hate to throw that out there like that especially since you are in so much pain. I can relate to someone telling you beautiful things in order to make you believe that everything is going to work out and that he is really "trying". My H has cheated twice and I am in limbo right now with him. I can't even imagine the hurt you're feeling with your H having spit in your face in the past. That's just down right awful.

You said he's still lying. So, what's it going to take for you to actually follow through?


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

staarz21 said:


> I'm sorry, but no he doesn't. He knows you will threaten, file, then cancel it if he says the right thing. That's what he knows.
> 
> I hate to throw that out there like that especially since you are in so much pain. I can relate to someone telling you beautiful things in order to make you believe that everything is going to work out and that he is really "trying". My H has cheated twice and I am in limbo right now with him. I can't even imagine the hurt you're feeling with your H having spit in your face in the past. That's just down right awful.
> 
> You said he's still lying. So, what's it going to take for you to actually follow through?


I'm sorry you are also going through struggles. I guess I just really don't want to face what I really know I should do. This should be over and a big part of it already is. It's just so painful. Why do people do things like this to other living souls? Why bother? We tried, we failed... why the empty promises to just prolong the pain? Why the charade? I can't fathom just telling someone or a group of someone's (as in a full on church vow renewal ceremony 1 year ago) that things are different, the past is behind us.. we're turning this marriage over to God and he will guide us. And then bam, I catch him chatting up some girl from work while I was out of town... lying all the way til he was backed into a corner. But I know that's the only one I caught him in, how many other times has it happened that i dont know about this year and to what extent? And does it really matter anyway at this point? 

Just a lot going through my mind this morning. We're still going to counseling today... He's a Christian counselor and maybe he won't sugarcoat God's forgiveness towards these kinds of trespasses against a spouse. We'll see. Thank you for your thoughts.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

You have to understand his motivation. He probably wants to portray to the world that he is this great guy. When a marriage ends, it is seen as a failure, and he wants to hide from others his dysfunction.

Some part of me thinks that he is punishing you for his own problems. He disrespects you, but is miserable himself because he feels trapped. It is not staying out of love, but his own desire for his self-image.

He will say whatever it takes to keep you for his ego, it is not about love and treating you like a cherish partner. It should not be something you expect from him. He needs you for an image he wants to create.


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

Cherry said:


> I never said I won't divorce and in fact I've filed twice, so he knows I will do it.


From all you have written he knows you will *not* divorce. You have shown him twice that it is an idle threat. It is the same as telling your son that he can't watch TV unless he gets an A on his math test, then handing over the remote when he shows you his paper with a big red F.

I have read all of your posts on this thread and it seems to me you are just as invested in the drama and dysfunction as he is. You talk about you both drinking and drugging together, making promises and positive changes then reneging when things don't go your way. 

You say, "_I need love. I need to be put first. I need to be thanked. I need to be helped (around the house). I need to be acknowledged. I need to be cherished. I DON'T need to be blown up on, cursed at, walked out on, cheated on, lied to, made to feel like my thoughts are worthless or unwarranted or minimal. If I have an issue, I want to be heard, not dismissed, I don't want to be told to get over it, or if you would do this I wouldn't do that, I don't want an excuse for every thing that goes wrong.. it's always somebody else's fault. Never his."_ but your know he doesn't have any of this to offer. You say he has promised these things over and over but not delivered once. What are you waiting for? Someone needs to be the adult here and make the best decision for the kids, because that is really the point. 

I have no problem with adults behaving irrational and selfish and choosing highly dysfunctional marriage. I do have a huge problem with making kids be a part of these marriages, and you should too. You have 6 year old girls who have been watching this mess all these years, how much is enough before your let go of all your needs and wants that will never be fulfilled by the man you chose and do what is best for these kids? 

Your children's need for two stable, loving parents takes precedent 100% of the time over your wants and needs from a man who does not want or need to be a decent husband and father.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Cherry said:


> I'm sorry you are also going through struggles. I guess I just really don't want to face what I really know I should do. This should be over and a big part of it already is. It's just so painful. Why do people do things like this to other living souls? Why bother? We tried, we failed... why the empty promises to just prolong the pain? Why the charade? I can't fathom just telling someone or a group of someone's (as in a full on church vow renewal ceremony 1 year ago) that things are different, the past is behind us.. we're turning this marriage over to God and he will guide us. And then bam, I catch him chatting up some girl from work while I was out of town... lying all the way til he was backed into a corner. But I know that's the only one I caught him in, how many other times has it happened that i dont know about this year and to what extent? And does it really matter anyway at this point?
> 
> Just a lot going through my mind this morning. We're still going to counseling today... He's a Christian counselor and maybe he won't sugarcoat God's forgiveness towards these kinds of trespasses against a spouse. We'll see. Thank you for your thoughts.



I literally could have written this above post myself. I wonder the exact same things you do. Why would someone continue to do this? The fact is, we will never get all of those answers. Never. We will never understand it, because we aren't like them. 

What Mr. Fisty says in his post above above:



> You have to understand his motivation. He probably wants to portray to the world that he is this great guy. When a marriage ends, it is seen as a failure, and he wants to hide from others his dysfunction


Is very, very true. Even my own WH admitted this (but of course has since retracted his words). He is afraid of failing another marriage and what everyone will think. They don't even realize that the actions they took and choices they made, failed the marriage. Their lack of effort, failed the marriage. Sure, the BS plays a role in a failed marriage, but choosing to cheat, lie, and in your case, literally spit on the one person that loves you and you're supposed to love with everything you have...goes beyond any understanding that some of us will ever have. 

I hope you find your strength. Even the Bible states that a woman may divorce if her H has stepped out on her. Remember that.

Are you in IC for learning to let him go a little? You are very attached and adamant that he will fulfill your dreams. Your hopes seem to be way too high, given his past. If you are, maybe you should discuss this with your counselor.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Cara said:


> From all you have written he knows you will *not* divorce. You have shown him twice that it is an idle threat. It is the same as telling your son that he can't watch TV unless he gets an A on his math test, then handing over the remote when he shows you his paper with a big red F.
> 
> I have read all of your posts on this thread and it seems to me you are just as invested in the drama and dysfunction as he is. You talk about you both drinking and drugging together, making promises and positive changes then reneging when things don't go your way.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Yes, I know I'm as much to blame for this drama continuing. For the 1st 5 years of this roller coaster ride, I was a drunk, he was a drug addict.. then together for the 6th year we were potheads. The last 3 years, "we" have turned our lives over to God. I thought we were in it together, for the past 3 years, I truly thought we together were working on change towards a healthy marriage. And up until a few days ago I had no idea he was still chasing tail. I had caught him in various lies the past 3 years, but again, we were in active counseling up until a year ago when we renewed our vows. 

P.S. I was a drunk for the past 17 years of my life before I got sober. And admittadly I have lived a dysfunctional life, that's what drunks tend to do. I am still stuck in dysfuction with him, I see that, but it has been extremely hard to see past the BS he feeds me especially when I can also admit that I had no idea what a healthy relationship consisted of until just a few years ago. And I am still learning!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cherry said:


> *I need *love. *I need* to be put first. *I need* to be thanked. *I need* to be helped (around the house). *I need *to be acknowledged. * I need* to be cherished.


1) We are born selfish and NEED everything because we can't do anything for ourselves.

2) We grow up and learn to become independent and selfless in that it is better to give to others than to receive.

3) We grow old having our independence stripped away and once again need others to care for us. 

So the three very challenging stages of development that life has in store may seem to go like this:

Selfish / Selfless / Selfish, But in reality they go like this: Selfish / Selfless / *Humbleness* 

Life is just messy, but it can allow you to witness a profound lesson in meaning if you let it!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Cherry said:


> You're dating, boyfriend is all doting and kind hearted.. on his best behavior.. sex is amazing and of abundance. You get married, sex starts to wane but what else starts to wane? That same boyfriend's "best behavior", that and the weight of life begins. In steps temper, anger, abuse, cheating, lies, deception, rudeness, health issues, money problems, etc. And someone really wonders where the sex goes?
> 
> Anyway, 9 years on and 3 counselors later and a 4th attempt at it tomorrow, 2 divorce attempts.. we are back to the supposed lack of sex debate (once a month maybe). He claims that if the sex was more frequent, that if I met his needs, he would meet mine. You know, I met his sexual needs many many times.. and still mine go unanswered.
> 
> Bottom line, my husband is nothing but selfish and self centered. Difference this time around, I am stronger.


I think alot of marriages end up this way. In the begining your spouse was great in every way, met all your needs, satisfied every item on our internal checklist and all is great. Then after the wedding you see the real person. All the bad behavoir that was hidden before, rears it's ugly head. After a while you wonder where did that wonderful person I married go? I'm so sorry you're going through this, I'm going through the same things about the same issues and more. We tried counseling, doesn't do any good, it's all talk and wasted money. She has no desire at all to meet my needs and I fight the desire to hold back from doing nice things for her. I find myself wishing I never married.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Cherry said:


> Cara said:
> 
> 
> > From all you have written he knows you will *not* divorce. You have shown him twice that it is an idle threat. It is the same as telling your son that he can't watch TV unless he gets an A on his math test, then handing over the remote when he shows you his paper with a big red F.
> ...



Kudos to you for fighting your addiction. I come from a long line of alcoholics, so I know the difficulty it is to quit. You must be careful to not turn again to alcohol during this difficult time. I think you need some IC for sure. I think you need some time to kinda go over this in your mind. I just don't think he is on the same page that you are, I think he is just telling you what you wanna hear.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

So the counselor wants to explore the possibility of sex addiction for my H. I'm so sick of this BS. There seems to be some textbook explanation for everything he does. In this case it makes since, at the very least, he uses sex to cope with stressful situations. He thinks it'll solve everything. He's an overall addict.. and this is just another addiction. The weight of this marriage, our home, our children's world, our animals, everything, the decision to stay is falling on me. He wants to work through it, I'm just not so sure there's much to work through anymore in terms of this marriage. Just wanted to give an update.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I wouldn't pay attention to the therapist there. Does the therapist have a goal in saving the marriage, if so, then stop. The goal is to end up in a better place if applicable, and for the people involved to be in healthier situation, especially for the children.

To be honest, I am a sex addiction skeptic. I will grant that he has a sex drive and went out of the marriage for sex. But how did the sex end in the marriage? It is his behavior. There are couples that have sex 10 times a week and we do not state that they have sexual addiction. Rather he is mainly the reason why his sex life is lacking within the marriage.

He is abusive, lacks the relationship skills that help keep the sex healthy, his attitude is poor, and then he goes out on you to get sex. There is a higher probability that there would be more sex if he was not as dysfunctional as he is. Hard to give him sex when lots of his actions lead to anger and resentment. When he did get sex, he still did not improve his own behavior, leading you to go into protective mode and detach.

This is the reality, he was lazy as a person to work on himself and instead of that, he decides to cheat because he is lazy working on him. It requires less effort, and he does not want to look into the mirror.

So, just work on you and your independence. If he does change over time, which it will take him showing you for more than a year to see, perhaps it might change your mind. Until then, people rarely change until they hit rock bottom and the only place is to go is up or stay stuck.

His promises mean nothing because he has shown a lack of trust on his own end. When there is a lack of trust, words have no meaning. If he reinforces his words with his actions more often, perhaps his word can be taken more on face value, but alas, he has not exhibit that type of responsibility. He can blame it on sexual addiction, or he can blame it on his very own behavior.

What he lacks is emotional intelligence,maturity,and the risk/reward thinking when dealing with consequences. LOL, sexual addiction if applicable is far from his most pressing issues, which is primarily himself. Nope, he needs to work on his behavior, his anger, and his lack of respect for you. You should keep up strong boundaries. You need to show your children that respect is highly important in a relationship, and to detach if the relationship lacks it.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Mr.Fisty said:


> I wouldn't pay attention to the therapist there. Does the therapist have a goal in saving the marriage, if so, then stop. The goal is to end up in a better place if applicable, and for the people involved to be in healthier situation, especially for the children.
> 
> To be honest, I am a sex addiction skeptic. I will grant that he has a sex drive and went out of the marriage for sex. But how did the sex end in the marriage? It is his behavior. There are couples that have sex 10 times a week and we do not state that they have sexual addiction. Rather he is mainly the reason why his sex life is lacking within the marriage.
> 
> ...


Everything you wrote is spot on. Thank you. The counselor pointed that IF this marriage isn't already over, which he said could be very well possible, that the whole rebuilding of this marriage falls squarely on my H at this point and that it would be a long process. And like you said, he is too lazy to work on himself. In my heart, I know where this is headed.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Cherry said:


> Everything you wrote is spot on. Thank you. The counselor pointed that IF this marriage isn't already over, which he said could be very well possible, that the whole rebuilding of this marriage falls squarely on my H at this point and that it would be a long process. And like you said, he is too lazy to work on himself. In my heart, I know where this is headed.



You have other priorities before him such as you and the children.

You need to concentrate on having a level of independence so you can be free from him, and the lack of time he can affect the development of the children is also beneficiary to your children. You want your children to be less like him and that will take a lot of time and energy, which you do not have to focus on him.

You are at odds as role models and you want your children to be healthy because they are still heavily reliant on you to be that role model. Someone has to be the stable one. Enviromental factors are important in developing children and how the brain is wired to behave. You do not want your children to be clones of him .

The actions he is taking is destroying the love, and those are his actions to stop, not yours. He was troubled before he met you, and it is him to undo his own issues. Issues affect others and make them your business, but you cannot fix the issues for them. By leaving, or detaching, those issues will affect you less. Unfortunately you are tied to him through the children.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Cherry said:


> But *I got cheated on, lied to, man handled, spit on (literally),* and so many other unthinkable things as a "cherished wife" to this man.


:wtf:


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## RayJakeman (Jun 23, 2015)

This is a one sided story if ever I have heard one. So much bias with a heavy dose of a drug and alcohol problem that infests this family and no doubt the relationship and the children. A terrible shame.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

RayJakeman said:


> This is a one sided story if ever I have heard one. So much bias with a heavy dose of a drug and alcohol problem that infests this family and no doubt the relationship and the children. A terrible shame.


What about his side of the story do you want to know? I have zero reason to leave anything out, I want answers too... I have bent over backwards, sideways, forward, upside down, any which direction you can name and I can't fix it. I want it fixed too. What else do you want to know that you think I'm leaving out???? Yes, there was addiction, we met and married under the influence. So? We sobered up, found God, got Baptised, moved far away from the influences 3 years ago, and renewed our vows a year ago. Why is he still lying and cheating? Why isn't he walking the straight and narrow like I freaking am??? Could it be he's self absorbed or do you think I'm doing something wrong, as your statement eludes? What do you think that is exactly? Enlighten me.


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## Melvynman (Mar 19, 2014)

Sounds like you found God and thats not working for you. You don't need god or marriage to lead a happy healthy life. Take your kids and move on. Stop trying fix other people or having other people tell you how to fix a problem with other people. Move on and enjoy life. 

My advise would be to divorce and start dating other men... and never marry again! Marriage is a institution for the control of women reproductive rights. 

Mother nature has given you a gift. If you have sexual relation with a man married or not that man will bond with you. He will want to fix things for you, support you, and generally take care of you. The more men you date the more men you will have taking care of you needs. You have a two choices, use the gift mother nature gave you or give control to men stay married and let god guide you to the promise land.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Melvynman said:


> Sounds like you found God and thats not working for you. You don't need god or marriage to lead a happy healthy life.


I appreciate your thoughts on this, however, I definately need God in my life  with or without my marriage surviving.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Cherry said:


> Melvynman said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like you found God and thats not working for you. You don't need god or marriage to lead a happy healthy life.
> ...


Doesn't sound like your H found God. I'm not the least bit religious but I have to ask what you think God would have you do? How do you think He feels about the way your H treats you. 

Come on...in or out but don't use religion as a crutch or just a replacement for your addictions.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Cherry said:


> Melvynman said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like you found God and thats not working for you. You don't need god or marriage to lead a happy healthy life.
> ...



Standing applause!!!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

First came the apple, then the serpent. Then all kinds of lunatic sh^it happened. The rest is history.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Doesn't sound like your H found God. I'm not the least bit religious but I have to ask what you think God would have you do? How do you think He feels about the way your H treats you.
> 
> Come on...in or out but don't use religion as a crutch or just a replacement for your addictions.


I actually got sober a while before I got saved, a year or more. I didn't turn to religion to save me from my alcohol addiction. I didn't turn to religion for any reason now that I think about it. God found me finally, I think, or I was willing to be found maybe, not sure how it happened to be honest. I don't know what plans are in store for my marriage. I do know God doesn't want my H to treat me the way he does. But I also know we all have free will. As others have suggested, I need to keep my guard up, maintain firm boundaries, I need to plan my exit, I need to set it up so that life isn't terribly disruptive to the kids, and if my H has any sort of transformation along the way, well, I don't know what then.. it's all just a lot to deal with. I need to pray, a lot.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Cherry said:


> I actually got sober a while before I got saved, a year or more. I didn't turn to religion to save me from my alcohol addiction. I didn't turn to religion for any reason now that I think about it. God found me finally, I think, or I was willing to be found maybe, not sure how it happened to be honest. I don't know what plans are in store for my marriage. I do know God doesn't want my H to treat me the way he does. But I also know we all have free will. As others have suggested, I need to keep my guard up, maintain firm boundaries, I need to plan my exit, I need to set it up so that life isn't terribly disruptive to the kids, *and if my H has any sort of transformation along the way, well, I don't know what then.*. it's all just a lot to deal with. I need to pray, a lot.


Your husband already had one "transformation".

Your plan is sound, carry it out.


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