# Want long lasting love? Marry a "nice" guy



## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

> So what is the best personality indicator for sustaining a loving relationship? The answer is . . . drum roll, please . . . agreeableness, a. k. a. “the nice guy.”
> Agreeableness, one of the Big Five personality traits in the Five Factor Model of human psychology — the others being extroversion, conscientiousness, neuroticism and openness — describes someone who is “courteous, flexible, trusting, good-natured, cooperative, forgiving, soft-hearted and tolerant.”
> Sure, it’s unsexy, but it’s the most reliable sign that your mate is a keeper for the long haul.
> 
> ...


The science of happily ever after | New York Post


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That sounds like a good article. 

I was just talking with my daughter about why her dad and I have a good marriage. There seem to be so many factors that go into it.

I think it would be very risky to get married just based on looks or "falling in love."


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

This is only effective IF the spouse doesn't start treating that nice guy like ****, cutting off sex and other forms of affection and intimacy, and avoids criticizing dozens of things about him.

Outside of that, yeah, nice guys make great partners for a woman who seeks peace, stability, and good-naturedness in her approach to marriage and to life.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> This is only effective IF the spouse doesn't start treating that nice guy like ****, cutting off sex and other forms of affection and intimacy, and avoids criticizing dozens of things about him.
> 
> Outside of that, yeah, nice guys make great partners for a woman who seeks peace, stability, and good-naturedness in her approach to marriage and to life.


The wife probably is neurotic or a narcissist, hence nothing her husband could do would ever be enough.
Which has nothing to do with marrying a nice guy, since the issue isn't with the husband but with the wife.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree with the "responsiveness " but I have seen nice "agreeable " guys go down in flames by the dozens.

I am not saying being "nice" makes marriage any worse, but I am a barely civilized barbarian. I try not to raise my voice in an argument because I can shatter glass and nerves by yelling.

I am confrontational and grumpy. I do pay attention and am affectionate, I also listen and respond to my wife.

We have been successful for over 22 years, married over 18.

The part about being better in bed is laughable, however.

I don't think being more "agreeable " increases your skills in the bedroom.

I care but I am not very "agreeable ".
This is also my only marriage, just to be clear.

I think my sternness actually scared off the women who weren't serious.

My wife took hold of me and didn't let go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I agree with the "responsiveness " but I have seen nice "agreeable " guys go down in flames by the dozens.
> 
> I am not saying being "nice" makes marriage any worse, but I am a barely civilized barbarian. I try not to raise my voice in an argument because I can shatter glass and nerves by yelling.
> 
> ...



How would you know? Do you have sex with nice men often?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Is a "nice guy" agreeable? Not necessarily.

That agreeableness has to be honest.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I oughta write fodder like that, probably pays better than toiling in the lab... Let me dip into my vast stores of psych knowledge and translate the article for y'all:

Agreeable - do what I say. Sure, that will work. Every time.

Open - make sure you spill your guts early and often. No Mirandizing for you!!!

Extroversion - spread the goods, I'm too dimwitted to figure out what kind of person you are unless you act it 24/7

Conscientious - one of us has to watch out, why don't you do it?

Neuroticism - let's hope nothing I do gets on your nerves

Somehow the author seems to equate marriage with a Vulcan mind melt...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> How would you know? Do you have sex with nice men often?


Oh... I'll never tell...


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

After a few drinks they all seem nice!


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Staying married is a very poor indicator of a loving relationship. Lots of miserable, enduring marriages out there.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

*cue rhetorical questions*

If being nice is all it takes, why is there a steady stream of crushed "nice guys" coming through the revolving door of TAM on a daily basis?

If being nice is what women want (LOL, just, LOL) the why does the 180, and MMSL, and the MAP, work so well?

The wheels really fell off the cart at the "agreeable men are better in bed" line. Beginning to wonder if the article was just an exercise of the author to convince themselves, in thinking out loud. Blue pill4lyfe krew and all :sleeping:


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

*Re: cue rhetorical questions*



The Cro-Magnon said:


> If being nice is all it takes, why is there a steady stream of crushed "nice guys" coming through the revolving door of TAM on a daily basis?
> 
> If being nice is what women want (LOL, just, LOL) the why does the 180, and MMSL, and the MAP, work so well?
> 
> The wheels really fell off the cart at the "agreeable men are better in bed" line. Beginning to wonder if the article was just an exercise of the author to convince themselves, in thinking out loud. Blue pill4lyfe krew and all :sleeping:


I think your questions are answered by this section of the article.



> One study found that neurotic partners were more likely to break up with partners with lower rates of neuroticism “as if neurotics could not stand their good fortune.”
> 
> Many other studies have found that neuroticism is the No. 1 predictor of future relationship success — or lack thereof.
> “The only variable that distinguished happily married couples from those who were unhappily married and from the two groups that divorced was contrariness, which is the variable most closely related to the personality trait of neuroticism,” Tashiro writes.
> ...


How many times have you seen people post they got the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech?
I think it goes back to who the nice guy OR gal choses for THEIR mate.
You can be the nicest person on the planet, but if your SO is a piece of work, neurotic, selfish & contrary, then being nice isn't going to get you anywhere.
The article does point this out,


> Unfortunately, because of the magic tricks that love plays on perception, we often don’t see the tell-tale signs.
> There’s actually a term for this trend: Researchers call it “positive illusory bias,” when people inflate the positive personality traits and future potential of their mates, compared to outside judges like family, friends and even strangers.


For me personally, I'm going to go with with nice guys And gals do finish first.
I actually chose my H to date because he was the total package, with being a nice guy topping all of his traits. 
And not only is he a nice guy, he's about as Alpha as they come.
I think that either you're born that way or your not, reading books to "man" up MAY work in the short term, but when you get down to who you inherently are, it's tough to keep up the pretense for the long term.
Like ClipClop pointed out, the agreeableness has to be honest, just as any other trait needs to be, because eventually the truth will come out.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> The wife probably is neurotic or a narcissist, hence nothing her husband could do would ever be enough.
> Which has nothing to do with marrying a nice guy, since the issue isn't with the husband but with the wife.


Brings to mind an article I recently read that said the son of a narcissistic mother is likely either to end up a narcissist, or marry one.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Just wondering, why there are so many bitter people on TAM? 

There is nothing wrong with being a kind, caring, sensitive male. This whole Married Man thing where the guy has to be ridiculously alpha is just unrealistic and unsustainable for many men. People need to be honest about who they are. If someone doesn't treat you with kindness and respect then they aren't the right person for you. IMO, if you have to change elements of your personality to appease or excite the other person, then they probably aren't right for you.

Now I'm not advocating being a beta pushover, but if you are a caring, sensitive guy then I suggest finding someone who covets those characteristics, not try to suddenly change yourself into something you are not.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Lol, you're on a forum for people to talk about their relationship, and the majority of people in a happy, healthy relationship will feel no need to talk about it on a forum. Therefore, many people here will be in, or recovering from, unhappy, unhealthy relationships, and you wonder why there are so many bitter people on TAM.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

breeze said:


> Lol, you're on a forum for people to talk about their relationship, and the majority of people in a happy, healthy relationship will feel no need to talk about it on a forum. Therefore, many people here will be in, or recovering from, unhappy, unhealthy relationships, and you wonder why there are so many bitter people on TAM.


I understand that some people are struggling and having a difficult time, but it seems the bitterness which is so prevalent on this board goes beyond what I would expect. 

The bitterness which causes people from one gender to hate people from the opposite gender simply because of that person is a man or a woman just bewilders me. Unfortunately I see it all the time on this board.

I find it sad, to be honest.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

The first thing male BS are advised to do on this site is to STOP BEING NICE, "you cannot nice your way out of this? to implement the 180, the MAP, to read MMSL.

"Nice guys finish last"

You HAVE heard of this I assume.

"She's neurotic if she spurns a nice guy, NAWALT" 

You cannot have your cake without observing the obvious too.
Look out! It's a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!!11! - YouTube
Where did all the good men go? - YouTube

"Oh, he's just bitter, what's with all the bitter people, herpa herpderp"

Red pill and blue pill, I spent the majority of my 40 years being nice to women, never hit a woman, never cheated, and I have been treated like crap. Cheated on. Treated like dirt. Bitter? Say rather, I have adapted to the reality, and this forum has played a large part in it. 

But i'm just preaching to the converted.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> The first thing male BS are advised to do on this site is to STOP BEING NICE, "you cannot nice your way out of this? to implement the 180, the MAP, to read MMSL.
> 
> "Nice guys finish last"
> 
> ...


So just asking for clarification. Could it have been the women you were choosing? Was the only thing that would improve your relationships with women is if you completely changed your personality?

By the way, I am a believer in leaving the relationship if the partner cheats- even if there are children involved. IMO, people should find someone who will respect you as you are, not need you to change to suddenly to have them desire you. I'm not interested in that


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I understand that some people are struggling and having a difficult time, but it seems the bitterness which is so prevalent on this board goes beyond what I would expect.
> 
> The bitterness which causes people from one gender to hate people from the opposite gender simply because of that person's gender just bewilders me. Unfortunately I see it all the time on this board.
> 
> I find it sad, to be honest.


Most people know that they feel stroppy occasionally. They also know that having a strop in front of loved ones is not very useful. If people vent slightly here, have a little understanding, then return slightly refreshed, it is very useful.

If they wallow in bitterness, that is another thing, which is more than this forum can help with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I understand that some people are struggling and having a difficult time, but it seems the bitterness which is so prevalent on this board goes beyond what I would expect.
> 
> The bitterness which causes people from one gender to hate people from the opposite gender simply because of that person's gender just bewilders me. Unfortunately I see it all the time on this board.
> 
> I find it sad, to be honest.


What I find frustrating is the unwillingness of folks to look at what they contributed to whatever marital difficulties they are having. 

There is so much emphasis on the cheater being 100% responsible for cheating (and that is true), but not as much on the responsibility of that betrayed spouse to look at what went into the decision to cheat. 

That may make people feel justified and righteous, but it is not going to solve problems. And solving problems is the whole point of our being here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I think my sternness actually scared off the women who weren't serious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This sounds like my dh. He is kind of strict. But I think that makes for good husband material, when the strictness, the firm backbone, is balanced by lots of kindness and patience.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Most people know that they feel stroppy occasionally. They also know that having a strop in front of loved ones is not very useful. If people vent slightly here, have a little understanding, then return slightly refreshed, it is very useful.
> 
> If they wallow in bitterness, that is another thing, which is more than this forum can help with.


Now that absolutely makes sense. Thank you for your insight.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

jld said:


> What I find frustrating is the unwillingness of folks to look at what they contributed to whatever marital difficulties they are having.
> 
> There is so much emphasis on the cheater being 100% responsible for cheating (and that is true), but not as much on the responsibility of that betrayed spouse to look at what went into the decision to cheat.
> 
> That may make people feel justified and righteous, but it is not going to solve problems. And solving problems is the whole point of our being here.


I agree with you. I also am perplexed by how people will give the OM or OW 99% of the blame. Huh? If it were my spouse that cheated I would put 100% responsibility on their shoulders. They made the decision to cheat. If it wasn't this OM or OW, it would be another person.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I agree with you. I also am perplexed by how people will give the OM or OW 99% of the blame. Huh? If it were my spouse that cheated I would put 100% responsibility on their shoulders. They made the decision to cheat. If it wasn't this OM or OW, it would be another person.


I know. People can't believe their partner could do something so hurtful. I don't agree with blaming the AP, either. Your partner is the one who took vows to you. That is where your issue lies.

And I think automatic divorce for adultery is not a bad idea. Everything out in the open for all the world to see, nobody gets to hold a grudge, no one has to grovel. Everybody has to open their eyes and take responsibility.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Having read the ENTIRE article, I think it is spot on.

If read carefully , one would realize that the reporter was female and giving a female perspective on relationships. However the researcher she quoted actually clarified things when he said that his study covered both sexes.

This is a common sense approach to marriage that I've been advocating here ever since I have been here , don't know if anybody's listening.
Seems to me that people prefer to be politically correct than to be happy in their relationships. They think if they get the politics of attraction , gender, money and sex right , then happiness will follow.
But if you read the entire article, by the time you reach the third paragraph, you'd realize that that's statistically impossible. 

The secret to happiness and love in relationships is to marry someone who loves and respects you ,given their personality traits, or what the author has correctly described as a " nice guy."
Full stop.

I absolutely like how Dr. Tashiro ended his piece with:

"* A grown-up love story should not be a fairy tale or a romantic tragedy, but instead should be approached as a mystery*,” he writes. “*If the goal is to find the truth in love, to search for love that is real and enduring, then love cannot be left to fate.*”

The problem he says , is in the dating and selection process.

And there ain't no room for the " _wheel of fortune_ " approach.

Want long lasting love? marry a nice _person_ , or a person who treats you with love and respect, and be the type of person capable of reciprocating their loving gestures and honestly.

And that goes for both genders.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

I'll just go ahead and assume this is a joke. Marry a nice guy. Until he "bores" you. and you "lose the spark". I'm not saying marry an @sshole. But I don't think the marjority of women are best suited for this "nice guy".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Phenix70 said*: *For me personally, I'm going to go with with nice guys And gals do finish first.
> 
> I actually chose my H to date because he was the total package, with being a nice guy topping all of his traits.
> And not only is he a nice guy, he's about as Alpha as they come.
> ...


I go on about my husband being Beta A LOT here....because I feel the term has been slaughtered and put down, not given it's fair DUE.... in his case, the qualities of the Good BETA stand out so darn strongly....that there is no way to deny he is Beta.. And BETA is beautiful - as described here *>>*



> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


YET.....He is very Alpha (but really who determines this is ALPHA anyway?).... for example.. he never complains...if he even opens his mouth about anything negative (he was telling me the other night how he doesn't like doing this, he was talking about some of the Drama at work (cause I *wanted* to hear about his day).....he explains how some of those guys..all they do is whine...they're ungrateful & lazy.....and to him, that's not being a MAN... Even when he is sick - he doesn't complain... so I have to watch... if he says he's *in pain*, he might be ready to die...It's not exaggeration...

He is always pleasant to be around...an uplift.. *And true, the agreeableness* *MUST BE HONEST*.. or what it worth- but a slow growing resentment...that will play itself out in our intimacy and attitudes with each other, there is no way to fake this...

I know with me, I make sure he is not just "going along" - there are times he will put down his wants for ME.. but (on my end)....I want his happiness.. so I Make sure we are on the same page...and he gets HIS... I don't want a resentful man who is silently suffering... As wives, we need to treat our Nice Men as wonderful as they treat us. Then everyone wins... 



> *TopsyTurvy5 said*: *There is nothing wrong with being a kind, caring, sensitive male. This whole Married Man thing where the guy has to be ridiculously alpha is just unrealistic and unsustainable for many men. People need to be honest about who they are. If someone doesn't treat you with kindness and respect then they aren't the right person for you.
> 
> Now I'm not advocating being a beta pushover, but if you are a caring, sensitive guy then I suggest finding someone who covets those characteristics, not try to suddenly change yourself into something you are not.*














> *The Cro-Magnon said*: *I spent the majority of my 40 years being nice to women, never hit a woman, never cheated, and I have been treated like crap. Cheated on. Treated like dirt. Bitter? Say rather, I have adapted to the reality, and this forum has played a large part in it.*


 what about your decisions in this... was their anything wrong with your choosing of women....did you miss the red flags of *their character?* I have a hard time imagining a woman who takes marriage seriously cheating on a man who treated her with love, respect and goodness.. caring for her happiness.. only the lowest of the low would destroy a faithful man like that. 



> *TopsyTurvy5 said: **I agree with you. I also am perplexed by how people will give the OM or OW 99% of the blame. Huh? If it were my spouse that cheated I would put 100% responsibility on their shoulders. They made the decision to cheat. If it wasn't this OM or OW, it would be another person*.


Me & mine had this conversation a long long time ago... we both see it as you described here...it's HIS head (or balls) I'd want to take off, or MY head.. because it is to each other -we have made promises to love, honor , and cherish till death do us part..... 

Why blame the outsider -(we made no promises)....

It is *OUR CHOICE*... that is the height of betrayal right there.. that if a husband or wife lowers their boundaries to succumb to another man/ woman...when they have a willing giving partner at home waiting for them.... could we get any more "bottom of the barrel" ....


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Being nice just to be nice is dishonest. Most guys that fall into the "nice guy" category are being nice with secret hopes that their needs and desires will be met and are actually anything but nice when they are not. Only it comes out as passive-aggressiveness. 

As someone said, being a nice person is different. It is gender neutral and does not imply beta.

If you are nice without boundaries you are probably damaged and not fully developed as a person. You will choose partners poorly. You may end up bitter or you may keep making the same mistake and embrace victimhood.

If you are nice trying to get something in return, as the classic "nice guy" typically wants sex in return, you aren't nice. You are playing a part and one that is inherently dishonest. It usually ends up embracing victimhood, too.

You want to marry a grown-up.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*From the article*


> *Make a mental list of attributes you’d require in your perfect mate. Do you picture a handsome, tall man, with six figures in the bank, a sharp wit, a sweet sensibility and an Ivy League diploma to round him out?
> Well, I have a bridge to sell you*.


I was looking for a genuine GOOD man with fine character traits.. didn't have to be HOT, Mr confidence so much either (some of that is Hot air, need to assess it rightly)...just someone TRUE... not going to feed me lies or any game playing..... someone looking for Love, not to party...and to be loved in return..... believed in marriage /would make a devoted Father.... had a good work ethic, no addictions/ mental illness...... was the "one woman" type...and who shared a love for the country.... 

Having a "1st class lifestyle" .... not important to me at all....I came from a blue collar family , I married a blue collar man... meeting our bills, having something saved in addition, being able to take family vacations every year -this is all I needed...and have ever needed. 



> Our fairy-tale view of romance — 88 percent of adults believe in soul mates — has contributed to the fact that although 90 percent of people will marry in their lifetimes, only three in 10 will find enduring love, Tashiro says. (He gets this statistic by adding unhappy marriages and separations to the 50 percent divorce rate).
> When finding a long-term partner, don’t waste your wishes, he warns.
> 
> *So what should be on your list? Keep attractiveness off the table, if you can. Looks are not a predictor of sexual satisfaction, nor do they correlate to happier marriages. In fact, there “is no reliable association between physical attractiveness and relationship satisfaction,*” he writes, quoting from his own research.


 Well on this...I do think we need to be attracted to our partners.. maybe for some, this is not as necessary, but even in *"His Needs/ Her Needs- building an affair proof marriage * ..."*Physical attractiveness*" IS listed as 1 of the 10 emotional needs...some has it higher on their lists over others.....

My husband had glasses when we met, I must admit this knocked down his looks .... contacts wasn't yet popular with teens.... I really think I would have swooned him more if he had contacts.. sad to say. But I did undress him shortly after we met..and said to myself... his body is my type...(just something about lanky men )....and he was cute without those glasses on! .... 



> In addition, money does not a happy marriage make — at least over a certain point. Money makes a difference on the low end of the income scale (which has the highest divorce rates in the first 10 years of marriage), *but there seem to be “diminishing returns” on happiness in marriage above a financially stable $75,000 a year.*
> “Once this $75,000 threshold is crossed, there is no significant association between more wealth and higher levels of psychological well-being,” Tashiro writes. “There comes a point when affluence becomes associated with social pressures and social isolation.”


 We've always been lower than this average...even with a larger family....always paid our bills on time...we never fought over money...in all our years...



> “Men high in agreeableness are not only more likely to be kind, but also more likely to keep the sexual desire alive in relationships,” he writes. *They are more giving and often more sensitive, which makes for better between-the-sheets action*


Even in Married Man's sex Life Book (I have it).....I found it interesting that when comparing Alphas and Betas.....it speaks how Betas make better lovers.. WHY... they generally care more (due to that sensitivity)...to please their woman ...more foreplay.... I know my husband's attitude has always been - "*My pleasure IS his Pleasure"*... Very sensual.....He's not one who can separate Love & Sex , this greatly appealed to me...

If a woman wants a Good fast F***ing / raunchy dirty talk - my nice guy wouldn't be up to that ....he's just not naturally geared this way....Really...I can't complain as I never miss my orgasm. 



> *In other words, when looking for marriage material, nice guys should finish first. This is equally true for men looking for women: Niceness trumps all.
> If you’re playing the odds, it’s best to invest in a nice mate instead of a hot or filthy rich one.*


 I think the nature of attraction can't really be helped all that much...we can tell women this.. but if they are just not attracted to the personality, the easy going, laid back type...and their more docile temperament....to marry one may end in disaster for the man down the road ...what if they are both the Passive "agreeable " type? Imagine how uneventful that could be...

I think opposites in temperament can work very well... so long as they are compatible in a wide range of other areas like Love languages, dreams, on the same page in goals... beliefs...etc.. a woman must respect Her Nice man..or it's going to all fall apart. 



> *“If you choose someone with traits that drive you crazy or make you sad while you’re dating, then those traits will make you crazy or sad for decades to come,” he writes. “So you want to choose well, because what you see is what you get.”*


 This seems to happen a lot.. it's unfortunate....my Nice guy was genuine from the very beginning....he's always been my ROCK...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I think everyone agrees that is is not a good idea to marry someone who is mean or rude to you, disrespectful and unkind. 

That isn't good.



jld said:


> I think it would be very risky to get married just based on looks or *"falling in love."*


I am curious. Do you mean you shouldn't marry someone you are "in love" with? For me, I would need to feel passionate about my partner--passionate enough to marry them. I would prefer to marry someone I am in love with versus someone I am not in love with. I do agree with you that marrying based on looks is stupid.



zookeeper said:


> Staying married is a very poor indicator of a loving relationship. Lots of miserable, enduring marriages out there.


:iagree:



TopsyTurvy5 said:


> Just wondering, why there are so many bitter people on TAM?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with being a kind, caring, sensitive male.


:iagree:



Caribbean Man said:


> This is a common sense approach to marriage that I've been advocating here ever since I have been here , don't know if anybody's listening.


:rofl:



Caribbean Man said:


> The secret to happiness and love in relationships is to marry someone who loves and respects you ,given their personality traits, or what the author has correctly described as a " nice guy."
> 
> Want long lasting love? marry a nice _person_ , or a person who treats you with love and respect, and be the type of person capable of reciprocating their loving gestures and honestly.
> 
> And that goes for both genders.


:iagree:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have a hard time imagining a woman who takes marriage seriously cheating on a man who treated her with love, respect and goodness.. caring for her happiness.. *only the lowest of the low would destroy a faithful man like that.*


SA, we agree on a lot of things, but we don't see men the same way.

I don't think a woman can destroy a man. I just don't think men are that weak. At least my man is not.

I am not planning to have an affair, but I doubt he would be destroyed by it if I did. Disappointed, hurt, angry, frustrated with me, his faith in me seriously compromised, absolutely. 

Would there be consequences? Yes. But I think he would take charge of the situation. And after setting me straight, he would look very hard at his own contribution to what happened. There would be hard questioning of me, I am certain. And I think very firm guidelines would be put in place to prevent it from ever happening again. I just do not think he would want to lose me.

I am not sure what it would take to "destroy" my guy. He is pretty sturdy.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> I don't think a woman can destroy a man. I just don't think men are that weak. At least my man is not.
> 
> I am not planning to have an affair, but I doubt he would be destroyed by it if I did. Disappointed, hurt, angry, frustrated with me, his faith in me seriously compromised, absolutely.


I disagree. 

Jld, I am glad your marriage has never experienced infidelity (and hopefully it will never), but if you cheated, I can guarantee you, you would destroy him. Oh, he'd survive and all that (human nature) but something breaks in those situations. And it's one of those things that until it happens, you can't fully comprehend what it does to the marriage/the people in the marriage.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

When he finds out you had an affair, he will be destroyed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Jld, I am glad your marriage has never experienced infidelity (and hopefully it will never), but if you cheated, I can guarantee you, you would destroy him. Oh, he'd survive and all that (human nature) but something breaks in those situations. And it's one of those things that until it happens, you can't fully comprehend what it does to the marriage/the people in the marriage.


I trust you, JB. Not planning to have an affair. I am transparent with dh.

And I am going to have him look at my and your posts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> When he finds out you had an affair, he will be destroyed.


Have not had one and not planning on it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I am curious. Do you mean you shouldn't marry someone you are "in love" with? For me, I would need to feel passionate about my partner--passionate enough to marry them. I would prefer to marry someone I am in love with versus someone I am not in love with. I do agree with you that marrying based on looks is stupid.


A few months ago, I saw a young couple at Starbucks. They were holding hands and could not stop staring into one another's eyes. For like 30 minutes straight.

I have never done that.

When dh told me he loved me, I was stunned. I thought we were friends. But the more I thought about it, it occurred to me that dh would be a good husband, a good father, and a good provider. All three seemed important.

And I just felt so much trust in him. Respect, really. And that has just grown and grown over the years. I think my love for him germinated in that foundation of respect, and gratitude. I think dh is just a very fine man.

I wonder if I take marriage more seriously than some. I do not think lust or good looks or getting lost looking into each other's eyes is a good basis for marriage. I think marriage is extremely serious, especially as I look back on 20 years of it, and the five children it has produced.

We had a cheap, small wedding (10 people and we spent less than $500). We wore our regular clothes and the ceremony was 2 minutes long. Nobody cried.  But it remains the happiest day of my life.

We have lived in 3 countries and have survived our son's cancer and relapse, and our other son's seizures. Dh now lives in another state for work, and spends 3-4 weeks out of 8 abroad. Yet our marriage is strong. Just his presence calms me. Just hearing his voice tranquilizes me. Most of the time. 

I think this kind of marriage does not necessarily start out "in love," at least by Western standards. It, again, is born out of trust and respect. It is nurtured by selflessness and a willingness to fight laziness.

I just don't trust, what do they call it, "limerence?"


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Thank for sharing, jld.

I think a lot of people prefer practicality over passion and that works for them. I personally need a bit of both. I wouldn't be able to be with a man in a long-term relationship if I didn't love him and want to sleep with him. 

Respect is very important, I think.

I don't think "good looks" or "lust" ar eever a good idea to base any sort of "serious" relationship on, or especially a marriage, because all of that fades anyway, but I guess what I am saying is that there has to be a healthy balance. I need to feel at least physically attracted to a man in order to be with him. 

So would you say you have never been "in love?"

Sorry to hear about your sons. I think it's great you guys have lasted so long.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jld - I hope you don't, but if you did, that would utterly destroy him. And at the going rate of infidelity, you say you don't plan on it, but odds are about 50/50 if it happens. Just saying.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> This whole Married Man thing where the guy has to be ridiculously alpha is just unrealistic and unsustainable for many men.


If you're referring to Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life books and website, then you have misunderstood his recommendations. Kay recommends a balance of alpha and beta traits. Too little beta is just as disastrous for a marriage as too little alpha.



> People need to be honest about who they are. If someone doesn't treat you with kindness and respect then they aren't the right person for you. IMO, if you have to change elements of your personality to appease or excite the other person, then they probably aren't right for you.


That's assuming that one's personality is fixed and immutable, which isn't true. Studies have shown that marriage causes testosterone to drop in men. And fatherhood causes it to drop further. Less testosterone means a man is less assertive, aggressive, sexual, and (basically) alpha.

Also, a typical story is that man and woman fall in love, get married, have children, and then fall out of love. Casually suggesting starting over with new partners ranges somewhere between impractical and disastrous. Divorce hurts families, especially children. Not to mention that many religions forbid it. So, changing to try to get back what you lost can be a good strategy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> jld - I hope you don't, but if you did, that would utterly destroy him. And at the going rate of infidelity, you say you don't plan on it, but odds are about 50/50 if it happens. Just saying.


My gosh. You don't know me. And believe me, dh is going to look at this thread.

I'm sorry I am not really responding nicely.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> jld - I hope you don't, but if you did, that would utterly destroy him. And at the going rate of infidelity, you say you don't plan on it, but odds are about 50/50 if it happens. Just saying.


She was only responding to what I mentioned as a hypothetical situation.

I think we can all agree (well, those who have experienced infidelity) that it destroys. People who haven't lived it can't grasp what it does.

And I pray nobody has to experience it ever!

Anyway, sorry for the thread-jack, OP. Back on topic! HAHA


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> So just asking for clarification. Could it have been the women you were choosing? Was the only thing that would improve your relationships with women is if you completely changed your personality?


Sure. Mate choice is always a variable. And women aren't homogeneous. Variety exists in women's preferences.

But that doesn't mean that variety exists in enough quantity to assure every personality type has its pick of compatible mates. For example, consider height in men. Most women prefer men taller than themselves. Since women aren't as tall as men, this usually isn't a problem. And, if a man is 6 feet tall, he will probably be an acceptable height for 99% of women. But what if the man is 5'3"? He won't be acceptable for most women. Perhaps only 20% of women would be willing to date a man that short. He has fewer options.

Now, height is obviously a characteristic that men can't change. But they can change their behavior. If a man has developed a habit that most women find unattractive, he can change his habits and suddenly appeal to many more women.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Thank for sharing, jld.
> 
> I think a lot of people prefer practicality over passion and that works for them. I personally need a bit of both. I wouldn't be able to be with a man in a long-term relationship if I didn't love him and want to sleep with him.
> 
> ...


Yes, I love dh. Yes, I feel attracted to him. Yes, we have an active sex life. I really try to please him in every way, and I feel genuine sorrow when I do not. I try very hard to make amends, and his approval matters very much to me.

I think, for the way I am wired, "in love" probably looks a little bit different than what might be considered normal. This thought just occurred to me recently, and I haven't been able to flesh it out yet.

But I will let you know as it takes shape. 

One more thing: Dh and I are together because we want to be. Even without "marriage," we would want to be together. We are mates, in a very primitive sense, I think. We just belong together. 

And again, I am definitely asking dh to look at this thread! I am afraid I am giving inaccurate impressions!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

clipclop2 said:


> Most guys that fall into the "nice guy" category are being nice with secret hopes that their needs and desires will be met ...


:whip: That's right all you evil men. You should stop hoping that your needs and desire will be met. That's clearly misogynistic behavior.



> ... and are actually anything but nice when they are not. Only it comes out as passive-aggressiveness.


Wait, you're suggesting that men don't act completely thrilled when their girlfriends/wives don't meet their needs and desires? Those bastards! :FIREdevil:

At least women compensate for their Nice Guy husbands by being altruistic and not caring about their own needs and desires. Thanks for taking one for the team, gals. :biggrinangelA:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I will say I believe the article is wrong on a couple points.

Compatibility is one of the most important elements to a successful marriage. I don't fit the nice "agreeable " man described in many areas, but I am compatible with my wife.

We have a very strong and enduring love for each other despite me not measuring up as the model nice guy. I do have some elements described but I am compatible with my wife and that is the most important trait.

On the whole nice guys being better in bed....:rofl:

It said the same of women. Having experienced too many partners before I married, I can without a doubt say that prior to Mrs. Conan, the best sex was with the most bad ass girl in school. She was not a nice "agreeable " girl but she rocked it like no other in bed.

I also have talked to many women about sex and often times, they have expressed that the best time was with a not very nice guy.

Not saying all nice guys are bad in bed or all bad boys are good.

I am saying that bedroom skills can be developed but are independent of "nice" agreeable " traits.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm really getting irritated with this kind of response, PHTLump. I realize you have a long-standing chip on your shoulder, but it is tiring.

There is a difference between people who communicate openly and honestly about their needs/wants/desires and people who try to buy others off. "Nice guys" being nice thinking that it buys them sex and then being upset when they don't get it are not open and honest. They certainly aren't being nice just because they're nice if they are doing it to get something in return. Getting pissed off and being passive-aggressive because your wife doesn't realize that she is in a transaction for sex isn't nice. Getting pissed off because your wife realizes she is being "bought" for sex and doesn't want to have sex with you because of it isn't nice.

Good men may be nice, but they are certainly not "nice guys".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

clipclop2, do you think these guys can change? Can they get healthier?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Jld, I am glad your marriage has never experienced infidelity (and hopefully it will never), but if you cheated, I can guarantee you, you would destroy him. Oh, he'd survive and all that (human nature) *but something breaks in those situations*. And it's one of those things that until it happens, you can't fully comprehend what it does to the marriage/the people in the marriage.


:iagree:

And that " something" that breaks in those situations is faith.
Monogamous relationships and marriage are social constructs that can only " function" if people agree to put their trust in it.

It's comparable to an agreement between two independent, autonomous factions or them to work together to achieve a particular goal they both want , but can't achieve on their own. 

If one breaks the agreement, trust is gone , and the past can't be undone or erased.


Everything else is peripheral.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> On the whole nice guys being better in bed....:rofl:
> 
> It said the same of women. Having experienced too many partners before I married, I can without a doubt say that prior to Mrs. Conan, the best sex was with the most bad ass girl in school. She was not a nice "agreeable " girl but she rocked it like no other in bed.
> 
> ...


Absolutely.

If you buy Schnarch's theory, distance and a degree of selfishness allows not so "nice"/"agreeable" people to take what they want from sex and that can be liberating to both partners. 

It is more difficult to learn to allow this in a loving relationship because we are all told to give more and take less. Our second thoughts get in the way.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> If you're referring to Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life books and website, then you have misunderstood his recommendations. Kay recommends a balance of alpha and beta traits. Too little beta is just as disastrous for a marriage as too little alpha.
> 
> 
> That's assuming that one's personality is fixed and immutable, which isn't true. Studies have shown that marriage causes testosterone to drop in men. And fatherhood causes it to drop further. Less testosterone means a man is less assertive, aggressive, sexual, and (basically) alpha.
> ...


I'm actually referring to the way the majority of men on this board interpret what he says. They are the ones thinking they need to be hyper alpha.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

clipclop2 said:


> I'm really getting irritated with this kind of response, PHTLump. I realize you have a long-standing chip on your shoulder, but it is tiring.


I know what you mean. I can't tell you how tiring it is to keep reading the same old misandry that insists that men should not expect to have their needs met in relationships. It really does get old.



> There is a difference between people who communicate openly and honestly about their needs/wants/desires and people who try to buy others off. "Nice guys" being nice thinking that it buys them sex and then being upset when they don't get it are not open and honest.


That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that ALL people have needs and desires that they would like met in a relationship. And people try various strategies to get their needs met.

Nice Guys try being nice to women in the hopes that women will fall in love with them and want to meet their needs. I don't know why you insist on being so dismissive of that strategy. The article cited in the original post seemed to support being nice as a successful marriage strategy.



> They certainly aren't being nice just because they're nice if they are doing it to get something in return. Getting pissed off and being passive-aggressive because your wife doesn't realize that she is in a transaction for sex isn't nice. Getting pissed off because your wife realizes she is being "bought" for sex and doesn't want to have sex with you because of it isn't nice.
> 
> Good men may be nice, but they are certainly not "nice guys".


So, men being nice because they hope their wives enjoy having nice husbands and meet their needs isn't really nice? But if men were nice with no expectations of having their needs met, that would be nice?

Do you have the same standard for women? If a woman meets her husband's needs with the hope that he will meet her needs in return, does that make her not nice? Should men insist on marrying women who either have no needs, or who don't expect their husbands to meet their needs?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I'm actually referring to the way the majority of men on this board interpret what he says. They are the ones thinking they need to be hyper alpha.


It's more common for men to be too beta than too alpha. So adding alpha is the standard advice that would apply to most men. But it's rare that a man on this board will suggest that men should be skewed heavily toward the alpha side of the spectrum.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I was a nice guy. Always have been. You know what it got me in my marriage? First, my wife started to get bored. Then she started losing interest in sex. Then she ended up getting younger friends and wanted to be a social butterfly. Then she had a PA and EA with a complete loser.

Now, I'm more like Bruce Banner and the Incredible Hulk. I'm a very nice guy, but dont make me angry....you wouldnt want to see me when I'm angry.....

I dont take any crap from my wife. No more doing what a "good husband" is supposed to do. If shes physically capable, she can do it her damn self. I dont chase her, I dont ask her for sex, I rarely initiate physical contact, and if I even sense a hint of attitude, I squash it like a bug......

Funny how it works. Some women cant handle being with a nice guy. They cant handle someone completely loving them and doing all they can for them. The less you show, the more they show. The more you show, the less they show. Its such a shame it needs to be this way, but my mentality now is adapt to survive.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

jld said:


> clipclop2, do you think these guys can change? Can they get healthier?


Yes. Unfortunately, it often happens in marriage #2.

A wife that holds her husband accountable can help. But I think women don't enter into a marriage with a nice guy understanding what he's really about. They become baffled when he is resentful and then they join in the fun, adding their own resentment. 

This is an important topic to discuss with sons and daughters!!!

Men don't teach their sons how to be men. Boys try to figure out what seems to work and the classic "nice guy" is the friend-zoned guy. It makes sense that if you are nice people should be nice back, right? Unfortunately, that doesn't work in sexual relationships. You don't get the girl (and sex) because you are nice. 

And dumb girls... idealistic girls... believe that these guys are OK being friend-zoned! We have had a lot of discussions with our oldest about this and it took a few ultimately unpleasant experiences for her to finally believe what we were saying. They aren't taking you to see Bruce Springsteen because they just want to be friends, Dumb*ss! (Said with love, of course.)

It is difficult to learn to be honest and to have boundaries. Both men and women suffer from this affliction. Think about the doormat women who think if they just give him more love he'll love her back...

If you've spent 35 years+ being a "nice guy" you have to want to recognize that being that way isn't working for you and want to change. Recognizing you might lose what you have by getting real and honest is scary, even if you aren't satisfied with what it is you have. 'Cause at least you've got it! 

If you think about a guy who has been married 10 years and realizes being a "nice guy" isn't working, to make a change requires his wife to want to go along with it. Talk about upsetting the apple cart! 

Anyway, that's a long-winded way of saying yes, a man can improve and become a good man instead of a nice guy. It is just a lot easier if he does it before he gets married. After that, it is much more difficult because while neither partner is exactly happy, negotiating a new dynamic is very, very frightening especially when there is a lot of resentment in the mix.


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## scione (Jul 11, 2011)

Well, I'm a nice guy. I got married. And what happen to long lasting marriage? She went an cheated on me with a bad boy. She said I'm too good/nice.

So I told her. If you want a bad boy, just go wait outside of a prison. There will be a fresh out of jail convict that will be there for you.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

very good posts PHT.

Sorry if I was offensive JLD, wasn't my aim.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> * jld said:* *SA, we agree on a lot of things, but we don't see men the same way.
> 
> I don't think a woman can destroy a man. I just don't think men are that weak. At least my man is not.*


 When I say destroyed, I mean emotionally devastated...he wouldn't take a gun to his head or anything, but our lives would NEVER be the same, something would be irrevocably lost...we've only been with each other, so this is a very powerful bond... 



> *I am not sure what it would take to "destroy" my guy. He is pretty sturdy*.


 By comparing our men... in your thread...yours is more geared on the *Thinking* over the *Feeling* (temperament tests)...you've as much spoken he could be more emotional at times...so this would make sense...

I've established a while back in comparing the 2 , I don't think I'd fare well with a man who couldn't open up and show me/ talk about his emotional side...I dearly love that..it fulfills me....so it's OK for me.. I Love what he is.....as he is.



Jellybeans said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Jld, I am glad your marriage has never experienced infidelity (and hopefully it will never), but if you cheated, I can guarantee you, you would destroy him. *Oh, he'd survive and all that (human nature) but something breaks in those situations. And it's one of those things that until it happens, you can't fully comprehend what it does to the marriage/the people in the marriage*.


 Actually I would feel something was GREATLY amiss if he wasn't broken, It would make me question if he loved me or something...if a man can so easily get over an infidelity, maybe he doesn't really need me at all... putting aside whether we could get past it.. cause I believe mine would not want to loose me either.. but his being Broken...emotionally (not beyond repair) but YEAH...he would be...and I count this a sign of the deepest of feelings for each other....


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I am currently reading NMMNG. In my case it is less applicable than MMSLP. However, both of these books really are showing me how f'd up our society is when it comes to male/female relationships. the brainwashing starts as kids and never ends.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I am not sure what it would take to "destroy" my guy. He is pretty sturdy.



I know that a revenge affair by his wife following his own affair with the Michelin Nanny was all it took to destroy my neighbor.

He was a successful ($M) business owner and race car driver, actor looks, etc who married a stunning looking mid 30s lady - I've seen her with a swim suit at age 40 or so and she was just incredible - till he decided to cheat with the nanny. She revenged it, an epic divorce followed, they lost the business and house, he ended up in prison (DUI?) and she as a waitress. 

A similar story in another home close to is where husband cheated at work and the wife took him to the cleaners. 

Not difficult to ruin someone. Not at all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> very good posts PHT.
> 
> Sorry if I was offensive JLD, wasn't my aim.


No problem. Sorry to be so sensitive.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay. I should have never posted.

We talked about this once when it came up on the board a month ago (that hypothetical question about what would happen if your spouse had an affair). Dh said he doubted he would divorce me, but it would not be "no big deal." He said we would have to go to counseling, and he would want to know what his part in provoking it was.

I sure don't want to find out, but I am telling you, my dh is pretty strong. 

Then again, those do sound like famous last words.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> I'm actually referring to the way the majority of men on this board interpret what he says. They are the ones thinking they need to be hyper alpha.


I run a violent sport in my country. When I took over, it was very democratic, whereas now it is a soft dictatorship. The few times I go to clubs I will often be approached by pretty girls young enough to be my daughter. 

About the first advice I got on this board was that I was not alpha enough.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

scione said:


> *Well, I'm a nice guy. I got married. And what happen to long lasting marriage? She went an cheated on me with a bad boy. She said I'm too good/nice.
> 
> So I told her. If you want a bad boy, just go wait outside of a prison. There will be a fresh out of jail convict that will be there for you.*


Genuine Nice Guys need to be very very careful to marry genuine NICE WOMEN with high moral standards.. if I could beat a drum to this fact, I would... 



> *naiveonedave said*: *I am currently reading NMMNG. In my case it is less applicable than MMSLP. However, both of these books really are showing me how f'd up our society is when it comes to male/female relationships. the brainwashing starts as kids and never ends*.


 What does this mean? Who is to blame... feminists , religionists... I think there are a variety of personalities out there and we are best to present our genuine selves to each other .. I don't have all the answers but many men have no real leadership today in the homes..the breakdown of the family is not helping matters...
Peer pressure... in high school, people learn how to fake who they are -for acceptance.. this inevitably invites more faking as you grow.. and conformity -while everyone is wearing a plastic face..and we really don't know who the hell to trust... 

This is what I don't care for in this world.



> *hawx20 said:* I was a nice guy. Always have been. You know what it got me in my marriage? First, my wife started to get bored. Then she started losing interest in sex. Then she ended up getting younger friends and wanted to be a social butterfly. Then she had a PA and EA with a complete loser.
> 
> Now, I'm more like Bruce Banner and the Incredible Hulk. I'm a very nice guy, but dont make me angry....you wouldnt want to see me when I'm angry.....
> 
> ...


 WHo would blame you... but you're still with her? 



> *Funny how it works. Some women cant handle being with a nice guy. They cant handle someone completely loving them and doing all they can for them. The less you show, the more they show. The more you show, the less they show. Its such a shame it needs to be this way, but my mentality now is adapt to survive*.


 I have read countless posts like yours here and I find them so very very sad....I can not at all relate to that mentality... I don't understand those women. I would be the utter opposite, if I didn't feel greatly loved, I'd want rid of the guy...that's when I'd get bored.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, I think the issue is that I look up to dh so much. I really see him as Super Man. And I just can't imagine him getting felled by much.

He's just so calm and confident and secure. He has a core that is just so steady, so solid. He cried when our son was diagnosed with cancer, but he didn't take to drinking or fall apart in any other way.

He's just so supportive, so mature, so compassionate, so quick to look at root causes and fix them, so unlikely to take things personally. That's how he can be the father of five kids, provide emotional support to me, and work like a mad dog.

I know, I sound like a teenager. But that's how I see my dh.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SA - I don't know who to blame, though the 1st couple of chapters in NMMNG blame it on the fact that the traditional (going back 1000's of years) role of men is not common any more and feminism. Boys don't spend much time with masculine men during their formative years and culture pervades the rise of the all beta male, imo, primarily due to feminism. I think the former is much worse than the latter for boys/men and the latter messes women up quite a bit, by giving them conflict between what they really want and what society tells them they should want. And the feminist view that women deserve to have everything with no repercussions.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

JLD - your hubby sounds like the guy that MMSLP is trying to create, I consider you to be very lucky. You should print out that post and give it to him


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> Just wondering, why there are so many bitter people on TAM?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with being a kind, caring, sensitive male. This whole Married Man thing where the guy has to be ridiculously alpha is just unrealistic and unsustainable for many men. People need to be honest about who they are. If someone doesn't treat you with kindness and respect then they aren't the right person for you. IMO, if you have to change elements of your personality to appease or excite the other person, then they probably aren't right for you.
> 
> Now I'm not advocating being a beta pushover, but if you are a caring, sensitive guy then I suggest finding someone who covets those characteristics, not try to suddenly change yourself into something you are not.


Exactly. As long as you're not a doormat, you're good...with the most important caveat...

Choose the right partner.

GO FIGURE!!

I'm a remarried man, so 2 marriages. I've been a nice guy in both, but a doormat (gradually) in the first. I started as a nice guy and gradually allowed myself to become a doormat. In my current marriage, I'm still the same nice guy, the difference is that I'm aware of not becoming the doormat.

Now on the other side to the equation. My first wife had issues that I chose to ignore. I had this mentality that because we were husband and wife, issues should be fixable...they're not. Just because two people say I DO, doesn't, in and of itself, guarantee compatibility or cooperation on issues. I think that's one of the biggest troubles for "nice guys". We think that our spouse is going to give the marriage the same respect and importance.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> *Okay, I think the issue is that I look up to dh so much. I really see him as Super Man. And I just can't imagine him getting felled by much*.


 I think ALL Men would want to be admired by their wives like this..nothing wrong with it!

Mentioning Superman....







, I tend to see my husband like this song.. he FEELS every word of this, like it's his spirit or something.. it captures the Romantic that he is ...

I'm not superman but I'll always be your man! ~ Ronan Keating - YouTube

Words here... and I find them beautiful...



> I've been heading in the wrong direction
> Hiding from my own protection
> Running but my heart was standing still
> I guess you saw the light inside me
> ...





jld said:


> *He's just so calm and confident and secure. He has a core that is just so steady, so solid. He cried when our son was diagnosed with cancer, but he didn't take to drinking or fall apart in any other way.
> 
> He's just so supportive, so mature, so compassionate, so quick to look at root causes and fix them, so unlikely to take things personally. That's how he can be the father of five kids, provide emotional support to me, and work like a mad dog.
> 
> I know, I sound like a teenager. But that's how I see my dh*.


 I think it's great ! I am not sure how we'd deal with a diagnosis of Cancer... I WOULD BE THE ONE TO FAINT, and not handle that well.. I do believe he would... very stable....he just happens to be mushy too...he's even more patient with the kids over me... he is even nicer to the







! 

It's a running joke in our house all the women want him.. the daughter... the cat ...and ME.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> SA - I don't know who to blame, though the 1st couple of chapters in NMMNG blame it on the fact that the traditional (going back 1000's of years) role of men is not common any more and feminism. Boys don't spend much time with masculine men during their formative years and culture pervades the rise of the all beta male, imo, primarily due to feminism. I think the former is much worse than the latter for boys/men and the latter messes women up quite a bit, by giving them conflict between what they really want and what society tells them they should want. And the feminist view that women deserve to have everything with no repercussions.


If we could have all respected everyone from the beginning, we would not have had feminism or other "rights" movements.

I grew up with a dominant father, and dominant brothers, and my husband did the same. Dh is not as strict as my dad or his, but there is a backbone there. I think there is in most males, even now. But they have to let it out.

And we women are pretty much indoctrinated against our natures. I cannot tell you how my head has fought my heart. But in the right environment, namely one of trust and respect and love, the primal nature is going to emerge. And then real male-female bonding will take place.

I wish I had not spent so many years fighting it. But maybe all things happen in their own time, and for a reason.

Best wishes as you progress, naiveonedave.

And try to read The Way of the Superior Man. It is just excellent.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Actually I would feel something was GREATLY amiss if he wasn't broken, It would make me question if he loved me or something...if a man can so easily get over an infidelity, maybe he doesn't really need me at all... putting aside whether we could get past it.. cause I believe mine would not want to loose me either.. but his being Broken...emotionally (not beyond repair) but YEAH...he would be...and I count this a sign of the deepest of feelings for each other....


Great insight as always SA. By the time I found out my ex-wife was cheating on me, I had become completely emotionally separated that it really didn't hurt me emotionally at all. It did piss me off though because she was trying to do the whole cake eating thing, and I was not going to support that. So yeah, I agree that if it didn't crush him emotionally, it likely means he was no longer there anyway.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What a nice post, SA. Thank you.

People have told me I sound like a child with how I talk about dh. But dh accepts the child in me, the very big Little Girl inside. And when you are totally accepted, you just want to give back total love.

And I think every man could have his wife's respect, and, as a consequence, her love. But they have to earn it. They have to earn it by loving her, really loving her. And that requires a backbone. Men have to be able to say no to their wives, when it is in her own best interest.

I am hopelessly traditional!


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

jld said:


> What I find frustrating is the unwillingness of folks to look at what they contributed to whatever marital difficulties they are having.
> 
> There is so much emphasis on the cheater being 100% responsible for cheating (and that is true), but not as much on the responsibility of that betrayed spouse to look at what went into the decision to cheat.
> 
> That may make people feel justified and righteous, but it is not going to solve problems. And solving problems is the whole point of our being here.


JLD, very perceptive point but you also have to look at timing.

Most people are here RIGHT when they find out about an affair. Blame is a critical issue at this stage. BS's need to NOT take on undo blame and WS's tend to give too much blame (blameshifting).

In the long term of reconciliation, the BS will have to address some things (unless this is one of those situations with a serial cheater) about the relationship, but not right on DDay. DDay is about establishing the ground work of R which is completely about the WS taking responsibility and providing the BS coping tools.

It's like when someone passes away. You don't talk about their drawbacks at their wake or funeral.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It must be remembered that _truly_ nice guys are actually _good men_. Their agreeableness comes from real confidence and security in themselves. They are not doormats, not wimps. They don't seek to please out of desperation or in expectation of approval. They see relationships as win-win scenarios.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes, I love dh. Yes, I feel attracted to him. Yes, we have an active sex life. I really try to please him in every way, and I feel genuine sorrow when I do not. I try very hard to make amends, and his approval matters very much to me.
> 
> I think, for the way I am wired, "in love" probably looks a little bit different than what might be considered normal. This thought just occurred to me recently, and I haven't been able to flesh it out yet.
> 
> ...


To me, what you describe is REAL LOVE. It's the natural, normal, healthy version of love. For you to have an active sex life, you obviously feel passion. Your description of pleasing your dh exudes...TRUE REAL LIFE PASSION.

It isn't co-dependency. 
It isn't infatuation.
It also isn't this hollywood/harlequin novel idea of love which is probably one of the BIGGEST contributors to problems in marriage and relationships.

I see my wife as my best friend whom I'm also physically attracted to. I see her as someone I have made a conscious decision to share my life with. Do I love her? 100%. So much so that almost all of her friends give her a little bit of trouble because of how I treat her (PS why do women do this?). But I don't walk around in this fog or on cloud nine. 

Every few days, I remember to take a moment and reflect on the wonderful things I have in my life as to not take them for granted. During those moments of reflection, I come the closest to feeling the "hollywood" feeling, but it's fleeting and it's not how I live my life.

I applaud your views JLD. They're based on real life and real people, not fantasy.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I think that's one of the biggest troubles for "nice guys". We think that our spouse is going to give the marriage the same respect and importance.


I don't think that's exclusive to "nice guys." In general, when people marry, they think their spouse is going to give the marriage the same respect and importance.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Do I love her? 100%. So much so that almost all of her friends give her a little bit of trouble because of how I treat her (PS why do women do this?).


Her friends give her trouble because you love her? 

:scratchhead: 

Perhaps I am reading what you mean incorrectly but that seems stupid. Most females WANT their friends to marry a great guy.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Red pill and blue pill, I spent the majority of my 40 years being nice to women, never hit a woman, never cheated, and I have been treated like crap. Cheated on. Treated like dirt. Bitter? Say rather, I have adapted to the reality, and this forum has played a large part in it.
> 
> But i'm just preaching to the converted.


So since you started cheating on, hitting, and treating women like crap, how's that going?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

naiveonedave said:


> *SA - I don't know who to blame, though the 1st couple of chapters in NMMNG blame it on the fact that the traditional (going back 1000's of years) role of men is not common any more and feminism.*


 I am a traditionalist myself... and so is husband... I don't feel I am less of a woman cause I am in the home raising our children, and he has never made me feel less.. l love him MORE for that. I am one of the few women on this forum that LIKE Athol Kay and his book doesn't bother me at all. 



> *Boys don't spend much time with masculine men during their formative years and culture pervades the rise of the all beta male, imo, primarily due to feminism.*


Here is something that bugs me, not that YOU mentioned this....but speaking of societies EXPECTATIONS..... My husband doesn't like sports...should he be looked down upon, after all.. ALL REAL MEN LIKE SPORTS, don't they?...should he have faked it & signed up for football trying to prove something.. -

We have 5 sons.... all the time I am thinking to myself... "WHy in the world are we having all these boys... both of us could care less about sports...we don't even watch the Super Bowl...(Who won?!)....and everywhere we go, we are bombarded with comments such as "Oh you have your own football team, or baseball team" and we're thinking.. NOT REALLY...

Tried to get oldest into Baseball..you know how interested he was... he wanted to just bat..& sit down in the outfield..that was it, took him out..... 2 of our boys are Cross country runners -so I guess a little JOCK in some of them..but really ...what's wrong with other things... ours are far more into music.....our 1st 3 sons...









And I'm happy about this...Husband works with a guy...his son , a football player - had a concussion, cat scans, wasn't sure what was wrong with him, a leg injury, got infected last week... he has to keep taking off work.... for what.. imagine the physical problems he is going to have in his future...



> *I think the former is much worse than the latter for boys/men and the latter messes women up quite a bit, by giving them conflict between what they really want and what society tells them they should want. And the feminist view that women deserve to have everything with no repercussions.*


 I have no desire to have it ALL... there is always a price somewhere... with our kids, time with the husband... extra stress... just so I can drive a new car...and buy a purse that costs $100... not interested...

I don't feel MEN feel *needed* any more by women, something in them wants to show their love in this way...but when it's not needed at all...or when respect gets lost...along the way... It's complicated! We have no desire to change our Traditional dynamics in our house.. that's all I can speak to...I guess...even in this modern world.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

traditional men's stuff:
being the provider (thinking farmer or hunter)
protector of the family
foundation of the family.

SA you have a good situation, in spite of society, imo.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Cletus said:


> So since you started cheating on, hitting, and treating women like crap, how's that going?


:iagree:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> To me, what you describe is REAL LOVE. It's the natural, normal, healthy version of love. For you to have an active sex life, you obviously feel passion. Your description of pleasing your dh exudes...TRUE REAL LIFE PASSION.
> 
> It isn't co-dependency.
> It isn't infatuation.
> ...


Thank you, Dad&Hubby! Yes, dh is definitely reading this thread when he gets home! 

And I am finally happy to hear someone say that I _do not_ sound like I am speaking of fantasy! Do you know how many people have thought I am "not real" on these boards, Dad&Hubby?

And I got the most beautiful pm last night from a friend on the boards about my dh. I am surprised I did not cry. It was just so touching.

Yeah, dh is pretty much everything to me, or at least the source of all good things. I am a SAHM because he wanted it, I have the life I have because he provides it. He's pretty much the sun in the sky for me. 

And for us, that works. 

And does your wife need new friends? They might just be jealous, sad to say.

Whatever they say, you just keep loving and serving your wife, and having a backbone, being able to tell her no when it's in her best interest. Those are all the important things, I think. 

I remember many years back, being really whiny and demanding about something, and dh telling me, "jld, I cannot." I don't know how to describe the tone, but it was so loving, so caring, so empathetic, but so clearly saying "no." I can still hear it, after all these years. I know he loves me, because when you really love someone, you say "no" when you need to.

Well, Dad&Hubby, you made my morning. Now I have to go and exercise!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

naiveonedave said:


> *traditional men's stuff:
> being the provider (thinking farmer or hunter)
> protector of the family
> foundation of the family.*
> ...


I agree 100% ...there is something BUILT into men that is geared to be THAT... even the NICE sensitive ones can I add! And generally women are more the nurturers..simply because we ARE MORE EMOTIONAL...... I mean even if my temperament is a little more WIRED over his.. he is still playing the manly role 100% ....I do see him as the foundation.. *MY ROCK*, our children's *ROCK.*... 



> *Jld said:* People have told me I sound like a child with how I talk about dh. But dh accepts the child in me, the very big Little Girl inside. *And when you are totally accepted, you just want to give back total love.*


 It does work this way...*or it should*. 



> *Jld said*: *And I think every man could have his wife's respect, and, as a consequence, her love. But they have to earn it. They have to earn it by loving her, really loving her. And that requires a backbone. Men have to be able to say no to their wives, when it is in her own best interest*.


 When I was Dumb enough to go ahead of my husband - not listening.. feeling I knew better...(I can only think of 3 times.. I lost $$, got called into court talking to 2 relatives having a custody battle ...and got a speeding ticked on the way to Disney).....I'd have to eat crow after...should have listened to THE MAN [email protected]#$ He was right !... Oh he'll let me be STUPID If I choose to be... (so long as it wouldn't cause physical harm- that is)... 

Thankfully I am pretty well balanced & don't like mistakes any more than he does or getting myself into "a mess"...so this doesn't happen any more at all..but if/when he tells me with a  ..."I told you so!"... I deserved that ! Ha ha



> *Jld said*: *I am hopelessly traditional*!


 yeah... me too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I know this has been said, but it is really a matter of compatibility.

SA's marriage is so great, in part, because she and her H are on the same "nice scale", so to speak. They are both kind and loving people with similar goals and values. That doesn't mean they are boring or anything like that...it just means they have a vibe like a John Denver song (who I love very much) with a Nirvana mix.

My husband and I have a great marriage, too...and neither of us would be considered "nice", more like "fun". We both somewhat qualify as "bad boy/girl" in some of our behaviors...but not the cheating or skirt-chasing parts. We just chase each other around constantly, that's fun, too! No need to chase others.

It isn't that you have to be the exact same as each other, but overall temperament and values and goals are very important.

When nice guys chase bad girls, and good girls chase bad boys, things don't usually work out that well.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Compatibility is one of the most important elements to a successful marriage.


Divorce courts are filled to capacity with couples who were certain they were compatible.

People change. What you and your spouse want or like to do today may be quite different in 10-20 years.

People who think all you have to do is find the "right" person and you'll live together happily ever after are often the ones searching over and over for that person.

Since the topic here is "Long Lasting Love", I'd say the ability to _*constructively work out differences*_ is much more important than compatibility.

Those who actually HAVE attained Long Lasting Love have found a way to make it work for both partners. And the nice guy / alpha guy thing has little to do with it. These guys are confident in who they are, where ever they fall on the _official TAM alpha meter_. 

:rofl:

And their W’s LOVE “EM for it.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Her friends give her trouble because you love her?
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> Perhaps I am reading what you mean incorrectly but that seems stupid. Most females WANT their friends to marry a great guy.


Okay, I didn't word my post well (shouldn't post just before lunch and rush it LOL). I was looking at two different scenarios and lumping them together.

On one side, my wife is CONSTANTLY hearing how good of a husband I am from outside sources..friends etc. to the point where she's said to me that she doesn't feel like she's a good enough wife (which I reply, I choose to be a good husband BECAUSE of how you are as a wife...if you weren't a great wife, you'd have a very different husband on your hands).

On the other side (and this was where my wording came from) she has a few friends who get jealous of her because my wife was the last one to marry of her group of friends. So she was always the sounding board for her friends. Most of their conversations would center around the friend's life and not my wife's. This wasn't an issue for my wife, she's an AMAZING person and friend to everyone so she enjoyed sharing in her friends moving forward with husbands and children etc. As she's now also moved forward with husband and children some of the same friends have this little underlying resentment that the friendship isn't "all about them now". But anyway, it's not a big issue and my wife is smart about it (luckily).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just a thought - nice people are usually those who have not had a lot of issues in their lives other than a flat tire or C in college. Many of us carry over ideas and notions from previous lives and experiences that make being nice a challenge. That has been my experience at least. 

Also the higher one is on the corporate ladder or income scale the harder it is to be nice. I lived In three houses - starter, semi custom, luxury - and found that niceness dropped considerably as income grew...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> *I know this has been said, but it is really a matter of compatibility.
> 
> SA's marriage is so great, in part, because she and her H are on the same "nice scale", so to speak. They are both kind and loving people with similar goals and values. That doesn't mean they are boring or anything like that...it just means they have a vibe like a John Denver song (who I love very much) with a Nirvana mix*.


 I love Nirvana -husband would be more into the slower Denver type music in comparison... it was me (Yeah the christian) who turned him on to "'Heavy Metal" when we met..dragging him to concerts..

I used to make fun of his liking the "softer stuff"...sounds real nice of me , doesn't it!.... I do get a RISE out of him.. this is our FUN... To be honest FW.. I try to be good to all.. I genuinely LIKE GOOD people.. honest / honorable intentions... .. but I can be tough..don't push me or try to swindle me....he's called me a "bull in a china shop" a # of times and jokes with the kids like that - about MOM...I just start laughing... 

He really is NICER over me....I just have a similar moral compass...and am far more vocal on expressing that. 



> My husband and I have a great marriage, too...and neither of us would be considered "nice", more like "fun". We both somewhat qualify as "bad boy/girl" in some of our behaviors...but not the cheating or skirt-chasing parts. We just chase each other around constantly, that's fun, too! No need to chase others.
> 
> *It isn't that you have to be the exact same as each other, but overall temperament and values and goals are very important.
> 
> When nice guys chase bad girls, and good girls chase bad boys, things don't usually work out that well*.


:iagree:



AlmostYoung said:


> *Divorce courts are filled to capacity with couples who were certain they were compatible.
> 
> People change. What you and your spouse want or like to do today may be quite different in 10-20 years.
> 
> ...


I feel differently on this..just did a thread on this subject days ago with a variety of choices...about those beginnings...the majority of posters choose #4....



> Lacking Self awareness to own's own needs & desires in Marriage...maybe low self esteem..."Settled"... Naive....went in blindly...not asking enough questions .... realized later ...very little compatibility .."


...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ng-vows-now-who-what-why-could-weathered.html

Maybe we are not the norm..but we really DIDN'T change.....but I'd say we had that self awareness...we were very vulnerable too... talking about all the DEEP stuff.... early on....

The same things I/ we wanted back then would be the same things we'd DO ALL OVER AGAIN IN A HEARTBEAT..... I can think of a few places we missed it, of course (that's normal in hindsight)...but our goals, our love languages, wanting kids/ family...the traditional lifestyle...our love for the country, enjoying togetherness, being geared "homebodies", savers, our laughter dynamics....none of this changed....

I am a huge proponent of Compatibility ... hence the thread I spent the most time on...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ility-b4-vows-beyond-marital-harmony-joy.html

Basically.. I feel we are all SELFISH in what we want...what ROCKS our boat....so to find that partner who selfishly wants the same darn things we want..heck, that's BLISS !


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Clipclop hits it on the head.


jld -

You are awesome. My wife used to feel about me just the way you do about your husband, and when I finally woke up and realized she didn't anymore and hadn't for quite a while (my own fault through ignorance and immaturity) after 20 years together, it nearly destroyed me. But I fought my way back, changed my ways (not just for her but for ME), and I think she's almost all the way there again. 

I hope your man recognizes what a special woman you are (I'm sure he does!) I speak for every man here when I say I felt a pang of jealousy when I read your post. While my marriage is now happier and more fulfilling for BOTH of us, more than either of us can ever remember, if I saw her write about me what you wrote about your husband, I'd know I truly was a successful man and had "made it". It's inspired me to be an even better man than I'm already working on being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I, too, feel that compatibility is essential to long-lasting love. Sure, people change, but if you are truly compatible, you will work out ways to re-balance the relationship. You will keep discussing new issues with your spouse, and figure out how to handle them as a team.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

justtryin said:


> *jld -
> 
> You are awesome. My wife used to feel about me just the way you do about your husband, and when I finally woke up and realized she didn't anymore and hadn't for quite a while (my own fault through ignorance and immaturity) after 20 years together, it nearly destroyed me. But I fought my way back, changed my ways (not just for her but for ME), and I think she's almost all the way there again.
> 
> ...


You know what inspires me about her, I actually see JLD as *very very self-less*...(sorry I keep throwing this on there jld...forgive me...but unless they have read your thread here...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/151721-husband-key-ltr-success.html

..Her husband is only home about 10 days out of the month.... how many days is that out of the year = 120 [email protected]#$

Now contrast that with someone like me... trying to make myself look bad here..I'd be furious, I'd rather live in a shack....I'd miss him TOO DAMN MUCH....would never work.... the whole "lonely desperate Housewife" -that phrase is exactly what I'd become... I'd resent his being gone THAT MUCH. Lonely nights....

I'd rather us both work 2 jobs and see each other every day... to keep the intimacy alive..... Yes.. I couldn't DO what jld does...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

skype said:


> I, too, feel that compatibility is essential to long-lasting love. Sure, people change, but if you are truly compatible, you will work out ways to re-balance the relationship. You will keep discussing new issues with your spouse, and figure out how to handle them as a team.


I married at 22. Over the next 30 years, change was inevitable. More so for me than for my wife, who has shown herself to be pretty adaptable to this sort of thing. Adaptability combined with dedication to the institution of marriage can go a long way towards keeping things functioning.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> It must be remembered that _truly_ nice guys are actually _good men_. Their agreeableness comes from real confidence and security in themselves.
> 
> *They are not doormats, not wimps.* *They don't seek to please out of desperation or in expectation of approval. They see relationships as win-win scenarios.*


:iagree:
Couldn't have said it any better!


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I married at 22. Over the next 30 years, change was inevitable. More so for me than for my wife, who has shown herself to be pretty adaptable to this sort of thing. Adaptability combined with dedication to the institution of marriage can go a long way towards keeping things functioning.


Agreed. Commitment is number 1. As long as you have that, you can make it through anything... and even prosper.

Like you, I've been around long enough to know _stuff_ does happen, even in the best of marriages. It's how you deal with it that matters.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

justtryin said:


> Clipclop hits it on the head.
> 
> 
> jld -
> ...


Blush. Gulp. "Thank you!"

He earned it. Like you have, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thank you, SA. Thanks a lot.

I just feel like dh and I work together for the best of our family. He earns money and I handle the home front. And he loves his job, and I want him to love his job. I just try to give him a wide berth to do whatever work is going to excite him and make him want to get up and do it every day.

And I feel bad when I complain and make demands on him. I know he is doing his best.

I feel so lucky to be a SAHM. I have so much freedom, and dh is so generous. And the kids are relaxed and happy, with time and freedom thanks to homeschooling.

I love my life, and it is my dh who has made it possible.

I think those women in sexless marriages must have very different lives than mine. Still just can't wrap my head around that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I know this has been said, but it is really a matter of compatibility.
> 
> SA's marriage is so great, in part, because she and her H are on the same "nice scale", so to speak. They are both kind and loving people with similar goals and values. That doesn't mean they are boring or anything like that...
> 
> ...


I think this is all so true, FW. You are one of the people I admire most on these boards. You have such a strong, independent, smart voice. You have been through a lot and you know so much. I am so glad you are here.

And I am sure your dh is your equal.

And SA, I bet your husband is so proud of you, and feels so lucky to be with you. And I love the kind of mother you are, so relaxed and just yourself! That is the best kind. I bet those boys have a lot of fun.

Different kinds of marriages can be good. The real trick is to be ourselves, absolutely ourselves.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I think those women in sexless marriages must have very different lives than mine. Still just can't wrap my head around that.



Some of them have very different lives indeed... Plus some women are not cut out to be parents or SAHM's to begin with.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

AlmostYoung said:


> *Agreed. Commitment is number 1. As long as you have that, you can make it through anything... and even prosper.
> 
> Like you, I've been around long enough to know stuff does happen, even in the best of marriages. It's how you deal with it that matters*.


Yeah we had 6 plus years trying to conceive... I think it sucked BIG time, I'd like to say I handled it better than I did.. I would get MOODY / temperamental....wanting to have another baby... distraught ... worried too much...cried on his shoulders....and it all fell so nicely into place anyway....I just needed more patience... more FAITH... so really... it was a waste. 

HE however.. the MAN.. handled me so well...he just LOVED me through that.... really...he never complained.... Thankful for what we had. His attitude is a great inspiration to me..

I realize there are far worse Marital trials over that... but for me, it was a big one... as *this* was the desire of my







..to have a larger family.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You know what inspires me about her, I actually see JLD as *very very self-less*...(sorry I keep throwing this on there jld...forgive me...but unless they have read your thread here...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/151721-husband-key-ltr-success.html
> 
> ...


My wife is the same way as you, SA! Fortunately I love that about her.

And being "traditional" is under-rated on my opinion...
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edit - I had more to post but I kid you not - wife called & wants me to come home early because she misses me - even sent an enticing text  she must have telepathically picked up on our posts...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Some of them have very different lives indeed... Plus some women are not cut out to be parents or SAHM's to begin with.


Yeah, I know we're all different, and have to be ourselves to be happy. 

But I don't think those women are happy, John. How can they be happy when their husbands are not? I am sure they are not clueless.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

They are happy because sex is about as important to them as curling...


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Hey, I like this article.

I'm tall (6-3).
I've been told I look presentable.
I have a pretty good bank account.
I have a dry and laconic wit.
I have an Ivy League diploma (two, in fact)
And I'm a nice guy.

Ladies, please take a number.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

justtryin said:


> *My wife is the same way as you, SA! Fortunately I love that about her.*
> 
> And being "traditional" is under-rated on my opinion...
> 
> Edit - I had more to post but I kid you not - wife called & wants me to come home early because she misses me - even sent an enticing text  she must have telepathically picked up on our posts...


 Another man similar to my husband ! ....and this too is COMPATIBILITY at it's core.. mine even likes me to come outside to sit near him when he's working on the car... he loves my company... and I LOVE this about him! 

Others would think "







is their something wrong with you both, don't you like your space?!!"... and we'd both say...."NO" with a ....

We don't do texting... today he was a little late coming home from work..I started to get a little worried....bigger kiss when he walked through that door, squeezed him a little tighter...it was just a little overtime & he didn't have time to call.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> They are happy because sex is about as important to them as curling...


And who is "they" John?

ALLLLLLL LD wives everywhere in the world can be categorized in the same way? They ALLLLLLLLLLL place no importance on sex? Not one of them has maybe some other reason that sex isn't happening in their marriages? No? 

I'm glad to know you can lump everyone in an entire group with the same label you slap on your wife.

Are ALLLLLL of them also BPD?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

So a LD Canadian wife who enjoys curling is non-existent? What if she is just LD with you? Does she get to exist then?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The logic bus seems to have missed a stop...

If sex is not happening and both sides are unhappy about it things tend to get resolved relatively quickly (divorce, counseling, affairs...)

If sex is not happening and both sides are happy about it things tend to stay as they are.

If sex is not happening and the HD side is happy while the LD side is unhappy... That's generally more likely to be a physiological issue that either gets resolved (hormones, T, etc) or gets moved to another category. I would be surprised to find a case where the HD partner would be happy about not having sex tho... 

If sex is not happening and the HD side is unhappy while the LD side is happy... That's our case here. Read a lot of the comings and goings in SiM and you'll see the instances where the non LD partner posting will talk of a great marriage in all subjects except one. Wonder which?

BPD does impact one's emotional stability in major ways but if you resd the last paragraph above you'll see I feel we see plenty of examples where emotionally stable and mature non BPD partners shut off just like BPD's do. Having BPD is likely to be a contributor to LD but there's plenty of LD to go around regardless of BPD.

There are also cases of HD BPD's depending on what phase of the relationship we're talking about.

If you're going to great lengths to prove someone "wrong" at least consider the different scenarios at play here, don't just take one case and run with it.

I suppose I could reword it to say that LD's are likely to be more happy than their non LD partners. Since this is TAM and not the American Journal of Psychology I feel more leeway should be granted.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

No john...please just keep saying it the way you originally said it, as it keeps it more obvious that you are lumping "THEY" all together.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As I said, this is not the American Journal of Psychology so if we have to qualify every statement with 5 pages worth of SPSS analysis there won't be any time for sex :lol:

Unhappy people take action generally, happy people stay the course. 

Back to curling.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Your hair looks lovely, BTW. ;-)


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

AlmostYoung said:


> Divorce courts are filled to capacity with couples who were certain they were compatible.
> 
> People change. What you and your spouse want or like to do today may be quite different in 10-20 years.
> 
> ...


Let me extrapolate.

The article said marry a "nice" guy for long lasting love and relationship.

When I said my wife and I are compatible and that was most important I meant it.

Obviously the people in divorce court were wrong about some important factor. 
My wife and I get each other. I was saying that the whole nice guy angle wasn't necessarily the best determining factor of long lasting love.

I am a barely tamed wild man. When my wife met me, I was nearly all wild.

I am not a nice guy. I am the type of guy that can walk through five men without breaking a sweat. I have never even come close to losing a fight. 

I have a bad temper, though I am not abusive, and am a barely reformed true bad boy.

I use to be the guy that everybody was scared of. 

My wife "tamed" me somewhat but she has always loved my bad boy and better yet, she gets me.
I have never tried to perpetuate the bad boy image, it was just how people viewed me.

Even to this day, I sometimes scare the crap out of people just because I am me.

I have nothing against nice guys, but it just isn't me. I feel very blessed that I found a fearless woman that has loved me with a tenacity that would shame a wolverine.

My point is, you don't necessarily have to be a nice guy to be successful in love.

Maybe if your a wolf, you just need to meet a she wolf.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Awww...you sound kinda like my hubby. Though, I am a barely reformed bad girl too, compared to a lot of people's standards, and he knows that and likes that about me. We keep each other on gold and diamond studded leashes as special play pets. 

And my husband is a nice and decent person, as well as being a wonderful tamed beast. He genuinely likes to help people, loves people, is kind, etc. 

Perhaps the whole "nice guy" discussion has come full circle to where now we can say we want to be with someone who is "nice"....like a Nice Naughty Guy. How's that description?

The NG book by Glover and then a lot of NG discussion at sites like Dr. Nerdlove and this famous post..

The Problem With "Nice Guys" | Paging Dr. NerdLove

...have made the NG thing into a definitely "no way, don't be that".

Maybe now that we all know the negative meaning of NG, we can move on from it and use the word nice again....


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I like curling!

You see the latest trend in female curling attire?!

Way better than lulu lemons.

Plus, you don't get the "your a creep" looks when you stare at those curling girls like you do when you face is pressed up against the glass and drooling...looking into the yoga studio ...like you do at the gym!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

In all seriousness...

I think we confuse Nice Guy with Doormat..

There are nice guys out there....but I believe the ones the ladies like and are talking about are the Gamma males, if you'll forgive my term.

The ones we all know, and tend to get screwed over, are the ones that we all think about... Those sopping, pu$$y males that have no backbone and think that taking every ounce of disrespect from thier woman just proves how much they love them. Yes dear! Whatever you think dear! Whatever you want dear! I know you were flirting with him, but it doesn't bother me because I love you and you know that, because I'm a modern male that understands if I let you disrespect me it just shows you how much I love you and because of that you'll know you have to love me back!

But you know that bothers me, right?! Ok! Ok! No fighting! I know that's how you are... I totally understand.

So...uhhhh....want to have sex? No? But even after how much I've shown you my love! Too tired? Ok. I get that. You've been really tired lately? For...like....4 months! Ok. We can wait....cuz I love you that much, baby!

..........

They know this is all wrong....but they don't want to "hurt" thier ladies feelings....


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

...and then there are the Omegas, Who even disgust the guys.....


I worked with one of those....

Yes dear! I totally understand that you want an open relationship....and that it bothers you and makes you jealous if I have one too! Yes! Yes! I'll stay home while you go out with that guy from Craig's List. I know you want to know where I am! I get that! Because I love you! And you know that because I do this you need to love me too, because I'm so awesome!

Just please! Please! Please! Promise me you'll have sex with me once this year, at least! You promise?! Woo hoo! You do love me! And yes! You can have my next paycheck for your trip to Vegas with that other guy you always talk about!

I'm so fu(king lucky to have you! Your awesome, babe!

**********
....I think I just threw Up in my mouth a bit writing ths....


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ha ha! Ok wait! Wouldn't be complete without the Alpha's!


I got this!.....


"fu(k you bit(hes!!!! This is how I roll!!!"


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I do not know able this. Perhaps if the agreeable part is genuine but I have experienced men who agree but only for appearance sake, are not genuine but agree to please and pacify and then go do their own thing which is completely opposite and actually harmful for the relationship.

I think it has to be genuine and sincere.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> This is only effective IF the spouse doesn't start treating that nice guy like ****, cutting off sex and other forms of affection and intimacy, and avoids criticizing dozens of things about him.
> 
> Outside of that, yeah, nice guys make great partners for a woman who seeks peace, stability, and good-naturedness in her approach to marriage and to life.


Normally the wife will not just cut her husband off for no reason. Women want to be close to their husbands. They may not have the hormones to desire sex as often as men. More than likely a cut-off is from being hurt from actions from the man or having the feeling that all their husbands want of them is sex. If the husband does not engage with the wife and share responsibilities and sits and plays video games, watches TV and spends his time with his guy friends the female is not going to feel connected to her husband and therefore will not have the desire for him.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Let me extrapolate.
> 
> The article said marry a "nice" guy for long lasting love and relationship.
> 
> ...



Hi Conan. 

I think it's because you went from extreme alpha male to a gamma male. 

Those labels are there for a reason... No matter how many people think those labels are full of crap. 

Being gamma means you know how to treat your woman right. With respect.

Being a formal alpha, that gets "it", you run your ship. But you treat your girl as first officer. She gets to advise in everything, but the final decision is yours. Maybe even if it was both of "yours".

This is a gamma. Respect. Understanding. But your still retaining your "alpha". You can concede to your wife with confidence, but you are never afraid of making a final decision you are confident in. Better if you both do, but not "required"

You have respect, and treat with respect. You treat your first officer with extra respect. Even if that means sleeping with the "crew", lol, and in that I mean your wife...your second in command. You are a synergistic team. 

This is a "true" nice guy. 

As opposed to a "nice" guy. You know....the beta kind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Just for the record... You wouldn't scare me, Conan...if I ever had to cross paths. 


Lol. We'll, maybe....

Depends if I could survive the ER room to get back in the ring for another swing. 😉
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dh read this thread yesterday afternoon, or at least my posts on it. He told me he appreciated what I said about him, and that it was very fulfilling. He said it motivates him to continue to meet my needs, and to improve.

But he did say that he thinks it is unrealistic of me to expect all men to be with their wives the way he is with me. He has a lot of men working for him, and he said they do not seem to want to accept responsibility in general.

I may have to change my view of men and what they are capable of being for the women in their lives. I do expect all men to meet their wives' needs the way dh meets mine. To me, those expectations should stretch men and make them grow. 

But if people do not want to grow, if they want to be complacent, what can you really do?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

You should always expect your man to meet your needs. 

Otherwise, what's the point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yes, but I am saying that I expect all men to meet the needs of their wives, to do what my dh does for me. And what dh told me is that it is unrealistic to expect all men to do that for their women. He said that involves taking responsibility, and some men do not want to take responsibility in their marriages.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

> But he did say that he thinks it is unrealistic of me to expect all men to be with their wives the way he is with me. He has a lot of men working for him, and *he said they do not seem to want to accept responsibility in general*.





> Yes, but I am saying that I expect all men to meet the needs of their wives, to do what my dh does for me. And what dh told me is that it is unrealistic to expect all men to do that for their women. *He said that involves taking responsibility, and some men do not want to take responsibility in their marriages.*


This is an ongoing frustration of mine, and quite recently I was discussing this very thing with friends. Granted, I only spoke to a handful of women, but every single one of them - both divorced and married - said this had been or continues to be an issue at home. 

There is no leadership from husbands/exes.

Having said that though, the man I'm currently dating is definitely a nice guy, but at the same time, he has opinions and he makes decisions. I told him a few days ago how much I appreciated that about him, because it's now a priority in terms of a quality I look for in men.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Stick with him then. But it is important that he is not selfish, too. At least in my opinion.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

The one time I sensed a little selfishness, we talked about it, and it hasn't been a problem again.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jld said:


> SA, we agree on a lot of things, but we don't see men the same way.
> 
> I don't think a woman can destroy a man. I just don't think men are that weak. At least my man is not.


How can you speak for all men like that? How can you discount what actual men in this thread are telling you? That the infidelity of the women they love can destroy them? 

You say you have a successful marriage. Great. You also strongly imply that there is only one way to have a successful marriage. That men need to be some kind of stoic superheroes, the eye in their silly little women's emotional storm. That men are strong and women are weak and need to be listened to, and taken care of, and babied.

It's just not true. I adore my husband. He is the absolute bedrock of my life. He has my total love and my total respect and my absolute devotion. And I have his. 

He is strong where I am weak. I am strong where he is weak. In no sense does he care for my 'inner child'. I don't need it, nor do I want it. We are equals in the very best sense of that misused word. 

Is he nice? Sure. He's lovely. And he brooks not one iota of disrespect. And nor do I. If I cheated on him, it would destroy something very very important in him. He would not be able to love me any more because I would no longer be worthy of his respect and devotion. Your husband doesn't feel the same way. That doesn't make him better or worse, it makes him different.

There's more than one way to live. 

Oh and trustability is not a word. It's snobbish I know. But I have now immediately discounted anything that author might have to say


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think that is what my dh was trying to tell me, Lyris. That I cannot assume all men can be what he is. Or that all women need what I need.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Somehow the word "pedestal" seems to be missing from some earlier posts...

I am who I am (no spinach involved) and do not depend on anyone else to make me feel complete. Teamwork is great for work but not the home with few exceptions.

My responsibility is to my family - everyone - and to make money and keep the roof over our head and food on the table. Not to spend my time thinking of ways my personality complements that of my wife, not to craft odes and poems of her in Facebook and so on.

It must be nice to have advanced the relationship to that extent but reality is, more pressing needs are on the table (such as staying relevant in the workplace, phd or not, and not being laid off, phd and 30 years experience or not, because they can hire a fresh body making half of your salary.

I guess your perspective changes once you realize exactly how vulnerable your situation really is - in the USA at least - so consider yourself lucky if your most difficult issue is where to take your wife or husband on Valentine day...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Are you talking to me, John?

Yeah, I do idealize dh. He has told me many times, "I am not a perfect man." He also said eariler that I don't talk enough about his faults here, only his good points. He does a good job of meeting my emotional needs, and that is why I feel so close to him.

But a man who provides for his family is already doing a lot right there. You should feel proud.

I just think for a lot of women, providing is not enough. They have emotional needs, too, and that is where they feel fulfilled (when those are met).

I am married to be in an interdependent relationship. Dh does a lot for me, but I do a lot for him, too. 

If it makes you feel better, I doubt I will get anything for V day. Dh is not big on holidays. And really, for me, just being with him is a lot. Attention from him, the chance to deepen our relationship, is the best gift I can get.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Let me extrapolate.
> 
> The article said marry a "nice" guy for long lasting love and relationship.
> 
> ...


Conan, interesting viewpoint! I have a question for you. I do not know you, how old you are, or what your history is.....you say you come across as the bad boy your wife tamed you, when you say this what do you mean except that you intimidate other men? Were you the active porn seeker who chased after women and cheated on his wife? The type that would ignore his wife and feel she was only harping if she asked him to do something?

I feel that betrayal is the biggest marriage buster whether it be on the woman's part or the man's. Affairs, pursuing the opposite sex, indulging in porn (fantasy) instead of putting effort into the marriage, and the male viewpoint of nagging when most times it is just trying to get the man involved to help out or take responsibility are all deal breakers. Just wondered if your bad boy image included these.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Let me extrapolate.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


And that's ALL that matters.
Doesn't matter what people say about her.
Doesn't matter what people say about you.
Doesn't matter if they call your marriage* servitude. *

What matters is that you both understand and have each other's back.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> Conan, interesting viewpoint! I have a question for you. I do not know you, how old you are, or what your history is.....you say you come across as the bad boy your wife tamed you, when you say this what do you mean except that you intimidate other men? Were you the active porn seeker who chased after women and cheated on his wife? The type that would ignore his wife and feel she was only harping if she asked him to do something?
> 
> I feel that betrayal is the biggest marriage buster whether it be on the woman's part or the man's. Affairs, pursuing the opposite sex, indulging in porn (fantasy) instead of putting effort into the marriage, and the male viewpoint of nagging when most times it is just trying to get the man involved to help out or take responsibility are all deal breakers. Just wondered if your bad boy image included these.


I was addicted to porn but my wife helped me overcome that. 
In the first year of our relationship my boundaries did need work, I really didn't understand anything about relationships. My wife helped me understand consideration, mercy, compassion.
My bad boy image probably came from being fearless. I grew up in pretty extreme circumstances and I learned at a very young age that I don't fear death.
I would stand up to someone no matter who they were or what there position was. I once backed a police officer down when I felt disrespected. Many people saw the exchange.
I once dispersed a crowd of rowdy young adults and high school kids by myself. There were over 100 of them, drinking was involved, and they were in a gas station lot where I was working the night shift. I was 18 or 19.
I also hate to admit it but I had many sex partners. I never cultivated relationships I would just have sex with girls once or twice and move on. I didn't let myself feel much for anyone.

I never actually pursued any woman. I turned down or ignored the majority but on certain occasions, I would let curiosity and hornyness get the better of me.
I broke a lot of hearts and pissed off a lot of guys when I took their girls for a "spin".

Mrs. Conan was the first and only woman that I pursued. She was the only woman I had to get a date with.

When I saw her, it was like getting hit by lightning, or maybe a moment when God laid his hand on my shoulder and whispered in my ear "she is the one." 

I was mostly a cold and dangerous young man. I am now a slightly warmer, slightly fuzzier, and slightly less dangerous (getting older lol) man.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

alphaomega said:


> Just for the record... You wouldn't scare me, Conan...if I ever had to cross paths.
> 
> 
> Lol. We'll, maybe....
> ...


I really like your avatar.
I would probably be friends with you. I like people who aren't scared.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> And that's ALL that matters.
> Doesn't matter what people say about her.
> Doesn't matter what people say about you.
> Doesn't matter if they call your marriage* servitude. *
> ...


I have always liked your outlook CM. I appreciate your summarization of my post.:smthumbup:


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I have always liked your outlook CM. I appreciate your summarization of my post.:smthumbup:


Appreciate.

In terms of your marriage and your background storiy,
You and I have a few things in common, that's why I could identify with what you said in that post.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Best popcorn worthy thread in a long time. Between the posturing, pecker swinging, appeals to The One True Way to be a Good Man (TM), and the My Husband is Better than Yours Ladies Auxiliary, I could be entertained all day.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Best popcorn worthy thread in a long time. Between the posturing, pecker swinging, appeals to The One True Way to be a Good Man (TM), and the My Husband is Better than Yours Ladies Auxiliary, I could be entertained all day.


:rofl:

You are very funny, but aren't you being a little harsh?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't find it particularly harsh. Those in decent to good relationships tend to develop a bit of a denial syndrome when they are presented with cases of people in not so optimal marriages. 


I will never forget the shock I received when a good buddy of mine divorced. He grew up bilingual English and French and met this very stunning looking French young lady in college in the USA. They fell madly in love and upon graduation moved to Paris where they worked for a few years. He got a great opportunity in a great suburb of Boston famous for its academics . They moved there in a nice flat much better than they had in Paris. Six months later she dumped him claiming that this part of the USA was boring... The guy has bodybuilder looks, education, fun to be around, etc... Yet he was dumped. 

Expectations, etc...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You are very funny, but aren't you being a little harsh?


No, Pollyanna, I don't think that I am.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Best popcorn worthy thread in a long time. Between the posturing, pecker swinging, appeals to The One True Way to be a Good Man (TM), *and the My Husband is Better than Yours Ladies Auxiliary,* I could be entertained all day.


I hope you don't think I am doing that....most women aren't attracted to the Nice Guys...even the genuine ones....after all they don't have the allure of the Bad Boy.... the Beta's, the Gammas...*most women ignore them*.. so if I speak favorably -it is just to offer another perspective...that some of us - really do appreciate the way they are.... and it doesn't mean we are all abusing them in some way or another... contrary to popular assumption. 




alphaomega said:


> In all seriousness...
> 
> I think we confuse Nice Guy with Doormat..
> 
> *There are nice guys out there....but I believe the ones the ladies like and are talking about are the Gamma males, if you'll forgive my term*.


Here is the whole break down if anyone is interested...



> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/46682-alpha-betas-delta-etc.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No, Polyanna, I don't think that I am.


Okay, Cletus.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

But did she curl?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Great, I don't fit any of the categories all that well... Gamma may be the closest,


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Want long lasting love? Marry a "nice" guy*



john117 said:


> Great, I don't fit any of the categories all that well... Gamma may be the closest,


Some men can't be summed up by a single Greek letter.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Jld, I was called a Pollyanna on this forum before... you are not the 1st...smile 



> *john117 said:* *Great, I don't fit any of the categories at all.*..


You have to fit some of that.. a combination of ALPHA / BETA is the best anyway. 

I was told by *Machivella* -he seems to understand all this, talking about the Bell Curve & all that....that as a woman I don't fit the norm at all... and, going by my posts, my husband sounded like a Delta /Gamma... but I'll still call him Beta -it sure fits with this write up....but what he said too - I could see it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I don't find it particularly harsh. Those in decent to good relationships tend to develop a bit of a denial syndrome when they are presented with cases of people in not so optimal marriages.
> 
> 
> I will never forget the shock I received when a good buddy of mine divorced. He grew up bilingual English and French and met this very stunning looking French young lady in college in the USA. They fell madly in love and upon graduation moved to Paris where they worked for a few years. He got a great opportunity in a great suburb of Boston famous for its academics . They moved there in a nice flat much better than they had in Paris. Six months later she dumped him claiming that this part of the USA was boring... The guy has bodybuilder looks, education, fun to be around, etc... Yet he was dumped.
> ...


You feel like I am in denial? 

I did say that dh told me I have unrealistic expectations of men in general. I am not sure how to adjust that. I think a lot of women would be very happy to have their husbands meet their emotional needs. 

I just don't think these posts that say, you don't have to meet her emotional needs, that's her responsibility, are going to bring about loving feelings in the marriage.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Jld, I was called a Pollyanna on this forum before... you are not the 1st...smile


No, you're far too entrenched in reality to ever earn that label.



> You have to fit some of that.. a combination of ALPHA / BETA is the best anyway.


I don't share your fascination with categorization and labeling. All this alphabet soup of greek letters is lost on me. All you need to be is what your mate finds attractive, whatever that is. There's a lock for just about every key, even if it might be really hard to find.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> You feel like I am in denial?


I think you're struggling with accepting that everyone else might have a very different but equally real and relevant reality than you do. That's not a sin, it's human nature. I'm sure you'll come around.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anyway... I have a question...*what is all so wrong with some expectations?* Ya know.. we have different expectations in different areas... I , for one, could care less about being Rich... if you heard how old our cars are, you might roll over & wonder what is wrong with us, soon they will be antiques... it's all good... 

You'd never hear me whine about it..I even prefer winders over those electric windows, I do gripe about this, when the motors die. (seems asinine to me they make these) 

But yeah.. I LIKE to spend time with my husband... but this doesn't mean all fun & games... last night we had someone slash one of our tires... he's working overtime tonight.. we won't get any free time till tomorrow night... and that's fine...

Ya know -really...HIS JOB comes 1st.. it supports our family.. and tending to important things that need done to run our household.....we often do them together .... helping each other ...I want to make his life easier.. .but in it's own selfish way... it's cause I love having THAT FREE TIME for just US.....

Anything wrong with that? ... It's important to both of us...and yeah.. a little Romance, this doesn't have to mean cards, flowers, or jewelry though.... 

Just a man expressing his feelings now & then, cuddling, watching a movie together.... I would hope a man wouldn't think *this* was asking too much....but I bet it IS for many!... and there again.. is where I feel compatibility is essential in choosing a partner for life.. We all have different areas that mean something to us, personally.

Sex is another one. It's damn important to our men.. and some us women too!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think that is what dh was trying to tell me last night. And he thinks I am a lot less naive since I have been reading on TAM. But I think it is pretty natural that we draw from our own experience in life.


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## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

*Re: Re: Want long lasting love? Marry a "nice" guy*



john117 said:


> Also the higher one is on the corporate ladder or income scale the harder it is to be nice. I lived In three houses - starter, semi custom, luxury - and found that niceness dropped considerably as income grew...


I personally know a couple people who are worth in the 100,000,000 range and they are very kind generous people.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

At that range of income they can afford to be. My neighborhood average income is in the low-mid six figures and I haven't seen a more self centered bunch in my life... 

Only one guy was beyond awesome, made VP of marketing for a major industry at 40. Everyone else...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not denial. Humans adapt their expectations based on what they're accustomed to. I live in a 6,000 sq ft home that we built. It's difficult for me to imagine that everyone else's house does not have two kitchens and six baths. My boss lives in a 2,000 sq ft home that by my standards should be razed 

It's not denial. Just a different set of experiences that feed in some bias. I have sen way too many marriages go down in flames to deny that problems exist.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Best popcorn worthy thread in a long time. Between the posturing, pecker swinging, appeals to The One True Way to be a Good Man (TM), and the My Husband is Better than Yours Ladies Auxiliary, I could be entertained all day.


My husband is way better than yours Cletus.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lyris said:


> My husband is way better than yours Cletus.


That's OK. My wife has a bigger penis than you.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

There's no way you could know that


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Cletus said:


> That's OK. My wife has a bigger penis than you.





Lyris said:


> There's no way you could know that


And this exchange wins the Interwebs today.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> No, you're far too entrenched in reality to ever earn that label.
> 
> *I don't share your fascination with categorization and labeling. All this alphabet soup of greek letters is lost on me. All you need to be is what your mate finds attractive, whatever that is. There's a lock for just about every key, even if it might be really hard to find.*


 Yes.... you have me pegged...I have some obsession with outlining... color coding...categorizing and classifying.....I guess it's my preferred learning style.....I have a need to dissect the differences in my head to make sense of things.. so I can then explain it....

Not that we should go around labeling ...... we are too diverse really.. for a word to capture a full personality, of course. 

Before landing here...there was a slew of words I had never heard before....Much googling & Urban Dictionary look ups..... it's been interesting.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Putting aside the definitions thrown around for 'nice guys' and 'alphas' etc, I have to admit that one HUGE factor for me in choosing a partner was that he was a nice person.

If Dh had displayed signs of being what I consider a nasty person, I would not have been interested.

A 'nice' guy for me was someone who wouldn't hurt someone unless it was in self defence, wouldn't be nasty to people as soon as their backs were turned, treated others with respect and consideration etc.

If I weren't to marry a 'nice' guy, instead picking a 'nasty' guy, I would be basically choosing a partner who would make my life miserable.

So instead of analysing lots of stuff about alphas and omegas and lots of words that can mean very little, I just choose to stand by a choice that I made to marry a person with the same sort of values I had.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

"I just choose to stand by a choice that I made to marry a person with the same sort of values I had."-breeze


A wise policy.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

breeze said:


> *A 'nice' guy for me was someone who wouldn't hurt someone unless it was in self defence, wouldn't be nasty to people as soon as their backs were turned, treated others with respect and consideration etc.
> 
> If I weren't to marry a 'nice' guy, instead picking a 'nasty' guy, I would be basically choosing a partner who would make my life miserable.*


Isn't this the truth of the matter.. :smthumbup:

This will sound gravely old Fashioned to most but my Grandmother was more of a Mentor to me over anyone in my family and she always told me to make sure I married a man who treated his Mother well..

Now someone else might say -that = a Momma's boy... but I seriously weighed these things - thinking of her words to me...

If a guy talks back to his Mother (assuming she is a decent woman), treats the waitress unkind/ rude... also what are his friends like?... I feel all of this is a barometer to his character... It all adds up. 

I agree, if he isn't nice, considerate, a listener, show some sensitivity.... marriage could end up a hell ride....


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## Tess112 (Mar 9, 2014)

My fiance is what some would consider a "nice guy". He's quiet, reserved, well-mannered, and I can count the number of times he has actually yelled at me in our 11 year relationship with one hand - and still have fingers left over. Occasionally he has raised his voice a bit.

He isn't a pushover by any means though. He isn't afraid to stand his ground against me on important issues. He'll calmly explain his point of view even when I'm having a temper tantrum. I've seen him when he's working though lol, much more aggressive and dominant. He kicks ass and takes names. It's interesting to see the stark personality differences when he's at work vs at home. He's totally laid back with me and our daughter.

I think most women don't like pushovers, it's ok to be agreeable to a certain extent but the man has to be able to stand up for himself.


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