# Ladies - Men On Low Incomes



## braveheart2009

Ladies if you find the perfect guy, however you found out he had a low to medium sized income and hoped to increase this after marriage would this be acceptable?


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## Pseudonymousse

I think if he's a good guy, educated, motivated to improve his status quo, if he's independent, good spending habits, isn't in debt, etc... well I am a bit hesitant to say yes to marrying him. After reading all of the posts and complaints in the Financial Problems forum, it is pretty daunting to marry someone you know isn't in the best financial position. Marriage is (or at least it should be!) a very serious commitment. You're in it for life. You don't want to enter into it lightly. Don't rush into it. If there's a rush, then that should be a warning signal that everything might not be what it seems.

Btw how does he hope to increase his income after getting married? What's stopping him from increasing it now before getting married?


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## bribrius

how come most of us guys dont concern ourselves with our wives income no where near as much as women seem to revolve their attentions around their husbands incomes. Is this still the 1950's?


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## Airbus

Income has never been a factor in my dating life; of course, I draw the line at men who still live at home with their parents and have no job.

Seriously, though, not everyone is all that hung up on the dollar signs.

Why do you ask? Feel like sharing?


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## jfv

I think its just as much about ambition as it is about your bank account. Most women I know find ambiton very attractive in men. Not as much the other way around. In my experience.


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## bluelaser

braveheart2009 said:


> Ladies if you find the perfect guy, however you found out he had a low to medium sized income and hoped to increase this after marriage would this be acceptable?


Let me reverse the question. If a woman did marry you accepting your "promise" of increasing your income after you guys got married but after a few years of marriage decided to leave you because you were unable to keep your "promise"· Would such a woman be acceptable to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bluelaser

bribrius said:


> Is this still the 1950's?


Yes but only when it comes to the guy having to be the primary (& sometimes only) breadwinner. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HopelesslyJaded

bluelaser said:


> Yes but only when it comes to the guy having to be the primary (& sometimes only) breadwinner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't let bribrius fool you. He has a 1950s submissive housewife.


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## anotherguy

Funny.

When my wife and I met.. I was just out of school. Basically poor with only mediocre prospects. We hit it off big and there was never any doubt in my mind that she thought I was the cats pajamas... that I was 'the one'. Frankly - i was a little stunned at her belief in me.

Fast forward 25 years. We are doing unusually well financially - but that doesnt matter. What matters to me is the deep understanding that she loved me, from the start, for who I was. That is a pretty humbling thing - make no mistake. See if I fail - lets say I totally hose my career.. I dont know...somehow - something bad... and I'll be flipping burgers from now on if Im lucky. I'm pretty confident that she is going to be right there with me. See the difference?

Sappy, perhaps. Also lucky. It doesnt always work out that way for everyone. But my point is that when I see this particular calculus being considered - it makes me a little sad for the person doing it. Like they are missing out on something rather important, and I bet I'm right.

If I was young again and poor, and 'the perfect guy' whatever that means... and I even got a _whif_ of this from a woman... I would be gone so fast your head would spin.

but of course - the question was for the ladies....


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## costa200

bribrius said:


> how come most of us guys dont concern ourselves with our wives income no where near as much as women seem to revolve their attentions around their husbands incomes. Is this still the 1950's?


Women's capital is not monetary. It's in physical beauty and motherhood suitability.


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## Jane_Doe

I married a guy who worked one day a week and was in debt because I love him and knew we'd work hard together for our own future, not because I thought he'd 'provide' for me. I didn't care if we had to live in a studio apartment with a burning barrel in the middle of the room for warmth as long as we were together (and it almost came to that!)

A year later, he's paid his dues where he works, now he's earning almost double the 'average' income for our area and we're doing pretty well, considering we started with less than nothing.

But he didn't have to lure me to marry him with promises of earning more in the future. A woman who loves you will live with you on a smaller income just as happily as with a larger one.


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## Ikaika

Similar to anotherguy we were both in graduate school... so we started out poor. Essentially the apartment we lived in was the same size as our master bedroom. Don't know why she would have married me since the joke of my profession now was the same back then. "What is the difference between a <my profession> and a large pizza?" "A large pizza can feed a family of four." Anyway we both make the same income now, and can't complain our only debt is our mortgage which will be paid off in the next five years.


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## anotherguy

costa200 said:


> Women's capital is not monetary. It's in physical beauty and motherhood suitability.


No, sorry. That isn't my calculation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200

anotherguy said:


> No, sorry. That isn't my calculation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never said everyone was after capital. Just that capital differs according to gender.


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## Cosmos

Provided a man is educated, intelligent and motivated, I couldn't care less what his income is. Gone are the days when a man was expected to be the sole bread-winner.


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## jfv

Cosmos said:


> Provided a man is educated, intelligent and *motivated*, I couldn't care less what his income is. Gone are the days when a man was expected to be the sole bread-winner.


Motivated to do what?


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## Dollystanford

As long as someone has a work ethic I couldn't give a toss what they earn. 

Whether it bothers the man that I'm likely to earn more...well that's another story isn't it


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## bribrius

im going to have to make my wife go to work and support me once our youngest is of age. If she doesnt make enough to support me and make us well off i think im going to have to find a new wife. i want to have a wife with a good income that will support me and give me a good lifestyle.


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## Moiraine

Well I'm the completely opposite of this post then. I'm the wife. In our marriage, I'm the one who will be making the bulk of our income. My husband lacks the education for any high income jobs. His dream is to be a farmer. I completely support his dream. My dream is to make enough so that we can live comfortably. So this is why I'm working hard to make that happen.

He's never going to be ambitious enough to make any significant amount of income for us. I completely accept that. If I didn't accept that I would imagine I'll have to head on over to the Considering Divorce or Separation area of this forum


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## unbelievable

The transaction is and always has been mostly one of sex and nurturing in exchange for security. Before I catch tons of grief, I concede there are some exceptions just like there are a few examples of fowl that don't fly.


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## Juicer

Hate to say this, but needs to be said:

Every 1% increase in a woman's BMI means a .6% decrease in future family income. 

For each 1% BMI incease, a woman's likelihood of marriage drops .35%

Women's weight found to affect job, income - The Boston Globe


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## FirstYearDown

When I was single, I didn't care what a man made as long as he didn't have a minimum wage job, lived on his own and had a car which looked presentable. 

I've dated rich men and found most of them to be horrible people; often very selfish and arrogant. 

I still married my husband after the recession took his job away.


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## TiggyBlue

bribrius said:


> im going to have to make my wife go to work and support me once our youngest is of age. If she doesnt make enough to support me and make us well off i think im going to have to find a new wife. i want to have a wife with a good income that will support me and give me a good lifestyle.


why not do it now and you can stay home and look after the kids keep the house nice.


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## TiggyBlue

I was on a much higher income when I met my husband, didn't give it a second thought. Income wise it's now pretty even.


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## HopelesslyJaded

Juicer said:


> Hate to say this, but needs to be said:
> 
> Every 1% increase in a woman's BMI means a .6% decrease in future family income.
> 
> For each 1% BMI incease, a woman's likelihood of marriage drops .35%
> 
> Women's weight found to affect job, income - The Boston Globe


And this has absolutely nothing to do with the question the OP posted. Just another stab at women, just now it's not only their fault the sex life is gone to hell because their fat, we should add it's their fault the family isn't making more money. :wtf:


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## WyshIknew

What is low to medium income anyway? What sort of figures are we bandying about?
There is also a standard of living gap between the US and UK plus other countries.

So what are low medium and high?


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## SimplyAmorous

braveheart2009 said:


> Ladies if you find the perfect guy, however you found out he had a low to medium sized income and hoped to increase this after marriage would this be acceptable?





anotherguy said:


> Funny.
> 
> When my wife and I met.. I was just out of school. Basically poor with only mediocre prospects. We hit it off big and there was never any doubt in my mind that she thought I was the cats pajamas... that I was 'the one'. Frankly - i was a little stunned at her belief in me.
> 
> Fast forward 25 years. We are doing unusually well financially - but that doesnt matter. What matters to me is the deep understanding that she loved me, from the start, for who I was. That is a pretty humbling thing - make no mistake. See if I fail - lets say I totally hose my career.. I dont know...somehow - something bad... and I'll be flipping burgers from now on if Im lucky. I'm pretty confident that she is going to be right there with me. See the difference?
> 
> Sappy, perhaps. Also lucky. It doesnt always work out that way for everyone. But my point is that when I see this particular calculus being considered - it makes me a little sad for the person doing it. Like they are missing out on something rather important, and I bet I'm right.
> 
> If I was young again and poor, and 'the perfect guy' whatever that means... and I even got a _whif_ of this from a woman... I would be gone so fast your head would spin.
> 
> but of course - the question was for the ladies....


LOve this post.... this* WAS *me & my husband also. 

I've always cared more about the *character of the man* & *the integrity of the man* over what he earned....if we were on the same page in our hopes, dreams, hand in hand....working together, a desire for family, a determination that we would DO what it takes to acheive those dreams.....this is what spoke to me. 

I had hope - with our work ethics and our fierce determination to save $$ at every turn, we would realize our dreams....together ....in due time. 

I used to pray over this scripture for our life together.. 










God honored this. 

I married my husband when he worked in a Grocery Store making peanuts. He was such a good employee that when he threatened to leave once... he wanted Health benefits -so we could get married, they gave him what he wanted (only a select few had them in that store)...

I am a very thrifty woman ...these things mattered to me... He was thrifty too - so we were a perfect match...and we had the same dreams.... We have never had one fight over $$ in our marriage. Neither of us made much....a little over minimum wage....for a couple yrs I earned more than he did...before we got hitched.... but when our 1st little boy came....(quickly I might add)... because we were such good savers, and knew we could swing it.... I quit working... We did fine... we have never had to take out a loan for anything ...other than our house. Paid cash for each vehicle & paid every credit card bill in full ...

We managed our $$ so well, that when we bought our 1st house, we were able to put half down....sold that 2 yrs later, made a decent profit , then able to put down $40,000 on our country dream house with 50 acres & a 3 stall garage... ..and amazingly -- he was still working in that Grocery Store!! 

Then we cut that loan in half from 14 yrs down to 7 years and managed to be Debt free by the time we had our last child (6 in all). 

He did finally land a better job shortly after we got our dream house though. 

Our net worth is worth more than many I know making double what we make... My husband has never earned a dime over $50,000. In our area though, he has one of the best blue collar jobs around. 

So although I care how money is spent ....it has always been ..... can one live on that income ?? ....What a man makes does not define his worth or value - for me... and never will. 

* Isn't life about ...what we DO with what we HAVE ???*

I love my life, I have worked for people who earn 6 times more than my husband and they envy us... they are in more debt than us, sure their house looks like a page ripped from House beautiful magazine..... but they are not happy within. 

It's not all about $$. So long as one can pay their bills , take a few vacations a year, put food on the table, not be fighting about $$, know how to enjoy the simpler things in life....and not be dependent on another...this is LIVING.


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## Bellavista

I think it would also depend on his age. If you meet a guy in his 20's who is just starting out, he is likely to be on a low income. If you meet a guy in his 50's who is still on a low income, this may be a problem.


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## WyshIknew

Yep started on low low wages. I was on an apprentice wage (don't know if you have that where you are)

Wasn't doing terribly well when wife met me but now I am on just over twice the average wage, wife is on average wage, good pensions, both parents houses are valued at over £500k.

So ropey start, but with a bit of sweat and tears, although we won't be wealthy we will be comfy.

So as Bella and SA say it can be down to sharing your love and building your future.


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## fallensoldier

Since when does money define a man? C'mon ladies, what century are we in? I really am shocked. When I met my now hubby, he wasn't in debt, he was broke! But guess what? He was sweet, passionate, caring, truthful, and everything i'd ever want in a man, therefore, I didn't even think twice of what he has or doesn't. In fact, I helped him (financially) throughout most of our relationship before our marriage. I really can never understand this "money" thing about women. What's a real good man to do when life just hasn't dealt him the right cards and he isn't rich? Rob a bank? Does that make him "marriage material" then?


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## Pault

I feel that these days WHOEVER can make some money in a marridge it doesnt matter because there are many people across the world who have found that their jobs have disappeared, utilites have sky rocketed and the cost of trying to eat has become a 1920s re-run of the world in recession. i.e. Spain are now so poor the red cross are making food hampers for the guy next door because te country is o its kness. So Im all for who ever can make a bit of cash legally not matter if your the man or woman of the house do it.


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## anotherguy

Bellavista said:


> I think it would also depend on his age. If you meet a guy in his 20's who is just starting out, he is likely to be on a low income. If you meet a guy in his 50's who is still on a low income, this may be a problem.


No.

It's only a problem if one is shopping for a lifestyle rather than a partner in life.

Some may roll thier eyes at this and respond the paying the damn electric bill has very immediate and practical implications. Yes, true. But experience and observation tells me that is not what we are discussing here, the question was is 'low to middle' income was acceptable, and I say 'income', is largely irrelevant.

Some people have a very hard time with that perspective - they believe too much that getting the gross comforts of life equates to happiness... And it actually does not. Many that get 'rich' find that they are miserable and 'poor' in more ways than they expected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200

This thread is reminding me of that Wuthering Heights book...Poor guy gets scorned because he was poor and then made a ton of cash and returned for revenge


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## MarkInChicago

I feel like I'm at the other end of this spectrum. I've been fully employer for 30 years (software developer) and have always done well with investing, etc. I made sure we paid off the house and cars. Still, my wife of 29 years doesn't see the sacrifices I made as something worthwhile. She got to be a stay at home mom when the kids were little. All that and more. 

But as of now there are no replies when I say "I love you". Not sure what women really are thinking.


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## SimplyAmorous

Bellavista said:


> I think it would also depend on his age. If you meet a guy in his 20's who is just starting out, he is likely to be on a low income. If you meet a guy in his 50's who is still on a low income, this may be a problem.


I agree with this and WE were young... He was working in that Grocery Store before we met...he worked there for 18 long years, we had 3 kids on that low income, the most he made was $8.25 an hour. 

But I seen many a young women... my cousin for instance pass up on young guys cause they were not college educated & didn't have higher earning jobs lined up. I was never like that. This one cousin ended up passing a few great catches up (darn they were cute too!) to marry a guy 10 yrs older than her -just cause he made big bucks. 

These days, everyone seems to think they need "established" before there get serious. In the mean time, just have alot of casual sex.... I just can't relate to that. It wasn't my expectation in life. 

But yeah... if I lost my husband... I would consider the man's JOB history... what he has "built" in this life.....can he show something for his labor/his dallor .... is he in debt and why? But again, everyone falls on hard times... I'd be open to "the story" ....his current Job alone is not enough to make me turn around... His DEBT might though -being an older man! Or if he throws all his money into New vehicles but is still renting a cheap apartment...I'd do a double take on that. 



> *MarkInChicago said:* Still, my wife of 29 years doesn't see the sacrifices I made as something worthwhile. She got to be a stay at home mom when the kids were little. All that and more.


 I have always felt overwhelmingly THANKFUL that I was ABLE to stay home with our children on his income...for me, this is a Privilege.



> *costa200 said*:
> This thread is reminding me of that Wuthering Heights book...Poor guy gets scorned because he was poor and then made a ton of cash and returned for revenge


 one of my favorite movies ...and Cathy was a fool for putting $$ over Love....the tragedy many make & find Happiness can not be found in riches....when your







belongs to another ~ then it is too late.


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## HopelesslyJaded

anotherguy said:


> No.
> 
> It's only a problem if one is shopping for a lifestyle rather than a partner in life.
> [/i][/size]


I didn't look back but I think I remember trying to respond to that reply and couldn't put it into the right words. This is exactly how I feel.


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## Cee Paul

This has been an issue in our house for a few years but in the beginning it wasn't; that my wife makes nearly twice the amount I make annually because she went the whole masters degree route in college and has a big fancy job with a title, and I am merely a Lab Tech who earns a decent living($37,500)and likes his job and only took a one year course to get certified for my job(and dropped out of college about 22 years ago).


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## Moiraine

I never understood why some women marry only for money. I'm more of a mindset that if I want a certain lifestyle then I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get there on my own. If I want to make seven figures to be happy, then I better work to get there myself. I don't like to depend on other people. I would never make it as a stay at home mom


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## Cosmos

jfv said:


> Motivated to do what?


To do something with his life. I've done a lot with mine, and don't believe I'd be suited to someone who is happy to simply 'exist.'


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Absolutely. Money does not define who you are as a person.

My first marriage I was the breadwinner. I left because of the abuse, lies, overspending and infidelity. Not because I paid all the bills. My ex h would not even help around the house or child care. He'd rather sleep the day away and expected me to do everything.

I honestly did not mind being the breadwinner if the spouse helped around the house and raising the children. I never thought more of myself during those times. Now that I'm disabled, I'm no longer able to bring in a steady income. I loved to work, but I am looking for ways to bring in money into the household. I have an idea and I'm working on fulfilling my goals. I do miss being independent.

My husband said that he is just fine providing for us and not to worry or put on any stress over this issue. He's a wonderful man. I'm one lucky woman/wife!


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## aribabe

braveheart2009 said:


> Ladies if you find the perfect guy, however you found out he had a low to medium sized income and hoped to increase this after marriage would this be acceptable?



Low income, great guy... no i would not date him 

Medium income, great guy... yes, absolutely ( if i wasn't married )


Money and financial comfort is important to me. Being a "great guy" doesn't get any bills paid... sorry. When i was out searching for a husband/boyfriend, i was not just looking for someone great. I was looking for someone that i could see myself with long term. And long term , I'd like financial security. I want a family and children and i would not feel comfortable starting that with a man with a low income who "hoped" to increase it after marriage.


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## SimplyAmorous

aribabe said:


> Low income, great guy... no i would not date him
> 
> Medium income, great guy... yes, absolutely ( if i wasn't married )
> 
> 
> Money and financial comfort is important to me. Being a "great guy" doesn't get any bills paid... sorry. When i was out searching for a husband/boyfriend, i was not just looking for someone great. I was looking for someone that i could see myself with long term. And long term , I'd like financial security. I want a family and children and i would not feel comfortable starting that with a man with a low income who "hoped" to increase it after marriage.


But some people on lower incomes actually *manage* their money more carefully than a BIG spender on a medium income & have more to show for it. I guess that is the driving point of my posts & outlook on this, I don't see it all in black & whites...but in grey. 

But yeah...we're all different. I wouldn't be interested in a workaholic or someone who travels alot away from home.... that would be a deal breaker for me- for instance. 

I feel as though we have always had Financial Security - our entire marriage .... beings we never had to borrow, never lost a night of sleep over $$ ...even though others would deem us Lower income.... At any time, we could have thrown down cash for a brand New car & drove it off the lot ....(but we never would).... 

We had Insurances to cover if one died, excellent health benefits for every family member....anything that came up really.... new roofs, another car, house repairs - it was covered. I'm the type that pays my Cable bill a year in advance -if I can get a discount ~ pays Car/Home insurances /Taxes once a year- when they hit my mail box. I hate getting bills....and I refuse to pay interest. So much is taken out of his paycheck every week & goes straight into the Bank, what you don't see , you don't miss. 

On the way out today, I heard Livin' On A Prayer  ...thought of this thread... then coming back home....this came on the radio....Even though we ain't got money, I'm so in love with ya honey... for young people just starting out who are deeply in love.... there is a spirit of JOY & HOPE in these songs.... I love 'em.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I never knew my husbands income until I took over the bills a couple years ago. I had no interest knowing. It's not important to me.

I love my husband so much. He's really an honorable man. If he lost his job for whatever reason, I'm right here supporting him. I may not able to go back to work, but I'd be fighting disability to just to get by. Im unable to work any longer. Money is not that important to me. The one luxury I really enjoy is the Internet. You can actually get it for free, but its a slow service filled with ads.

My husband is successful by being a great husband and father. I love him dearly. I'd live off the land with him if we had to. Luckily he's a great hunter.


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## Broken at 20

Well, I think it depends on the generation, and the women. 

All you on this forum are grown, and I assume, fairly intelligent. 

And you know, just because a guy has money doesn't mean he'll make a good mate. 

I think girls in my age group tend to want the money. They assume it will bring them happiness. Then they realize that money doesn't always do that. And I am willing to bet when they hit that level of maturity, it will probably be their later 20's. But just a guess. 
It seems to me though, they want money and power. And they want it now. They don't want me, because I don't have it yet. They want it now! 

But I will say, there are those more home-grown style girls, that tend to stay in their age group for dating. I know them at school mostly, not so much at work. 

Just my thoughts.


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## RandomDude

Car = Check
Not living with family = Check
Financially stable = Check

Once you have those, it's pick up gallore, though, exchange all your notes to greens ($100s) and pay for your drinks with them. Emphasize it even more, show off a bit, but don't boast, the women will see your confidence, and if you have a good face, you'll be irresistable.

My wife has collared me however, so no fun no more with such things  still, memories are good! hehe


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## OhGeesh

Tricky question and obviously NO RIGHT ANSWER!! Speaking from experience as someone who has lived on both sides of the tracks poor, apt, beat up old car, robbing Peter to pay Paul, etc. 

vs

Fully funded 401k, retirement projections put me at 52-54 depending on the market, nice house, reliable cars, and a play car, getting to go to Europe, Kenya, being able to put the kids in multiple activities that would have otherwise been cost prohibitive.

I would easily pick the latter of the two. My wife and I could be much more frugal and save even more money. My motto is you can't take it with you while planning for the future. We could have retired at 46-47 if we would have bought a smaller house, no fancy cars, no big trips, but life is but a compilation of our experiences.

We work hard and we play hard that works for us and obviously not for others.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Well, as a data analyst turned writer, I'm the first to say that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. If someone is contributing to society, and to the betterment of the people around them emotionally and physically, even if it's not through income, that's good enough for me. It's really up for debate whether someone could increase their wealth through me, honestly the only way would be to be supportive of my craft, and that's pretty much exactly what I would want, so...works for me!


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## juicecondensation

What constitutets as a low income? Say you make around $42-44k a year? Is that a low income?


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## Therealbrighteyes

No, I wouldn't marry a guy who wasn't able to make a great living. Shallow? Sure. Honest? You bet. I doubt he would have married me if I was 300lbs and had warts. No, he married me for a very specific reason and my looks were part of it.


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## juicecondensation

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, I wouldn't marry a guy who wasn't able to make a great living. Shallow? Sure. Honest? You bet. I doubt he would have married me if I was 300lbs and had warts. No, he married me for a very specific reason and my looks were part of it.


A great living? In other words rich? The average joe doesn't make a _great_ living.


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## costa200

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, I wouldn't marry a guy who wasn't able to make a great living. Shallow? Sure. Honest? You bet. I doubt he would have married me if I was 300lbs and had warts. No, he married me for a very specific reason and my looks were part of it.


I appreciate this kind of honesty.


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## Cosmos

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, I wouldn't marry a guy who wasn't able to make a great living. Shallow? Sure. Honest? You bet. I doubt he would have married me if I was 300lbs and had warts. No, he married me for a very specific reason and my looks were part of it.


In that case, I'm afraid we really can't call an older man shallow for trading in his middle-aged wife when her looks fade, gravity has taken its toll and he's reached a stage in his life where he's financially established. After all, he married her "for a very specific reason" and her looks were part of it...


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## costa200

Cosmos said:


> In that case, I'm afraid we really can't call an older man shallow for trading in his middle-aged wife when her looks fade, gravity has taken its toll and he's reached a stage in his life where he's financially established. After all, he married her "for a very specific reason" and her looks were part of it...


I can also appreciate this reasoning :lol:


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## ScarletBegonias

I wouldn't marry someone with bad credit.Lower income is no issue if you know how to manage your funds.I don't mind being the breadwinner as long as the other person at least tries to contribute what he can.Not everyone can have a fabulous paycheck and awesome job even if they've tried really hard.I'd hate for someone to say I wasn't marriage material based on my lack of decent income.


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## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> *No, I wouldn't marry a guy who wasn't able to make a great living. Shallow? Sure. Honest? You bet.* I doubt he would have married me if I was 300lbs and had warts. No, he married me for a very specific reason and my looks were part of it.



My goodness.
No it is NOT shallow.
This is what I wanted to say since this thread started!

We all like to be politically correct, but very few women are willing to marry a man that is not well off, or one who is not financially responsible.
Conversely, very few men are willing to marry a woman who's not attractive or decent.

I tell all my nieces and other young women, when they are ready to settle down, LOOK FOR A MAN WHO IS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE AND WHO UNDERSTANDS MONEY.

Just like I tell my nephews when they are ready to settle down, STAY AWAY FROM WOMEN WITH LOOSE MORALS.


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## daisygirl 41

I married my H because I fell in love. We were young. He was 21 and in the army. Not a good income. In 19 years he's had a few different jobs and now he's in the best he's had. We have been through a lot of financial ups and downs. I have always worked and always been responsible for the finances. H has no interest.
As much as a high income was not on my wish list for a H, being short of money and having the responsibility of the finances has put a strain on our marriage at times. I do wish H was a bit more interested in the finances and a bit more motivated to advance his career but its just not him. He's not motivated by money at all. At times it can be frustrating but I've accepted it's the way it is!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos

Caribbean Man said:


> My goodness.
> No it is NOT shallow.
> This is what I wanted to say since this thread started!
> 
> We all like to be politically correct, but very few women are willing to marry a man that is not well off, or at least one who is financially responsible.
> Conversely, very few men are willing to marry a woman who's not attractive or decent.
> 
> I tell all my nieces and other young women, when they are ready to settle down, LOOK FOR A MAN WHO IS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE AND WHO UNDERSTANDS MONEY.
> 
> Just like I tell my nephews when they are ready to settle down, STAY AWAY FROM WOMEN WITH LOOSE MORALS.


I agree to a certain extent, but I think there's a difference between a man being on a low income (which is how many start off in life), but handles money well and is motivated to be financially secure in life.


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## COGypsy

Caribbean Man said:


> My goodness.
> No it is NOT shallow.
> This is what I wanted to say since this thread started!
> 
> We all like to be politically correct, but very few women are willing to marry a man that is not well off, or one who is not financially responsible.
> Conversely, very few men are willing to marry a woman who's not attractive or decent.
> 
> I tell all my nieces and other young women, when they are ready to settle down, LOOK FOR A MAN WHO IS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE AND WHO UNDERSTANDS MONEY.
> 
> Just like I tell my nephews when they are ready to settle down, STAY AWAY FROM WOMEN WITH LOOSE MORALS.


I find it kind of funny that the advice is different for each sex. It seems like the advice would be equally beneficial to both....


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## Caribbean Man

Cosmos said:


> I agree to a certain extent, but I think there's a difference between a man being on a low income (which is how many start off in life), but handles money well and is motivated to be financially secure in life.


That's what i meant by " financially responsible."
There are men who start off with loads of money and go broke because they were irresponsible and immature. They don't have a clue how to handle money.

Then there are guys who start off with an idea, they are highly motivated and understand money, time & opportunity.
These type of guys are successful from start to finish.


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## anotherguy

Caribbean Man said:


> We all like to be politically correct, but very few women are willing to marry a man that is not well off, or at least one who is financially responsible.
> Conversely, very few men are willing to marry a woman who's not attractive or decent.
> 
> I tell all my nieces and other young women, when they are ready to settle down, LOOK FOR A MAN WHO IS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE AND WHO UNDERSTANDS MONEY.


No. and Yes.

Lets not draw any equivalance between 'low income' and 'financially responsible'. One is a situation, the other is a behavior.

So...'well off... or at least financially responsible' makes no sense if you look at it that way. The original poster made no such allowance for financial responsibility. Simply the question of 'low to medium sized income' as a litmus test.

You only need look at the former athelete who made 20 million dollars over the course of a few a few years, who is now filing for bankruptcy to see the difference. I might imagine the (perhaps) unhappy partner that used income as a criteria for marriage and is suffering a reality slap.


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## Caribbean Man

COGypsy said:


> I find it kind of funny that the advice is different for each sex. It seems like the advice would be equally beneficial to both....


Traditionally men have been the providers for their family.

Any young man who looks at a woman as the main provider for their family after marriage is a waste of time.

Nothing is wrong with a woman being gainfully employed, but men are supposed to provide a woman with more than just sex and lots of children.

A man who does not provide shelter and food for his wife and family does not love them.


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## COGypsy

I think income is pretty relative to location, it's hard to put a solid number on it to say "$xx,xxx is low, but $xx,xxx is high". 

The number aside however, to me it is about being in the same place in life and having drive. There's a huge difference between starting out together in your teens or 20's when pretty much NO ONE is making big money and getting together in your 30's or 40's once most people are more established in their careers and lifestyle. 

For me, I would want someone who makes at least as much as I do. Given that I work in the public sector, I'd generally expect him to make more than I do. Are there exceptions? Sure. Offhand, I think I'd be pretty accepting of someone going through a career change (umm....a legitimate one--not to finally be a rock god though!), or someone who was incredibly passionate about the work they do, like maybe running a non-profit or something.

I've worked hard to get to where I'm at and I would expect the same from a partner, with similar rewards for my effort. I just wouldn't have had the same want or expectation 15 years ago....


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## Caribbean Man

anotherguy said:


> No. and Yes.
> 
> *Lets not draw any equivalance between 'low income' and 'financially responsible'. One is a situation, the other is a behavior.*
> 
> So...'well off... or at least financially responsible' makes no sense if you look at it that way. The original poster made no such allowance for financial responsibility. Simply the question of 'low to medium sized income' as a litmus test.
> 
> You only need look at the former athelete who made 20 million dollars over the course of a few a few years, who is now filing for bankruptcy to see the difference. I might imagine the (perhaps) unhappy partner that used income as a criteria for marriage and is suffering a reality slap.


I am not drawing an equivalent. I am saying that well off doesn't mean financially responsible. Neither does low income automatically mean financially irresponsible.

Being well off can be the result of either hard work or inheritance.
A guy who has the right work ethic will be well off no matter if he started off poor.
Marriage should wait until finances are in order so that unnecessary financial burdens are not placed upon the marriage and the wife.


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## anotherguy

Caribbean Man said:


> Traditionally men have been the providers for their family.
> 
> Any young man who looks at a woman as the main provider for their family after marriage is a waste of time.
> 
> Nothing is wrong with a woman being gainfully employed, but men are supposed to provide a woman with more than just sex and lots of children.
> 
> A man who does not provide shelter and food for his wife and family does not love them.


This is all BS. (Edit) *some* of it.

'nothing wrong with being gainfully employed'. wow.. how forward thinking of you. ;-)

There are plenty of women who are probably the primary breadwinners. More power to them, I say. Again - the discussion is broken if one is shopping for financial security rather than looking for a compatible partner - and I believe more often than not - one that will ultimetely be more likely to fail.

I bet these women make slightly more than you do, in fact. Just guessing. Same rule applies though - if you are attracted to someone because they generate income - you are missing the point of life... and missing it badly. Same for superficial beauty.

Women CEOs of the Fortune 1000 : Catalyst

one day.. we will all be slow, old, wrinkled - much less interested in making money and the relationships we have take on a relatively larger and more meaningful role in our lives. Then - perople will realize their mistakes, if not much before.


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## SadSamIAm

MarkInChicago said:


> I feel like I'm at the other end of this spectrum. I've been fully employer for 30 years (software developer) and have always done well with investing, etc. I made sure we paid off the house and cars. Still, my wife of 29 years doesn't see the sacrifices I made as something worthwhile. She got to be a stay at home mom when the kids were little. All that and more.
> 
> But as of now there are no replies when I say "I love you". Not sure what women really are thinking.


I am with you. Similar story. Been married almost 25 years. We started with nothing. Borrowed $500 from my parents to pay our first months rent. 

Now own my own company. Have expensive home, nice cars, nice vacations, lots invested. 
My wife stayed home with the kids and hasn't gone back to work. Youngest is now 16. My wife will never work again outside the home. 

I don't care about her not having a paying job. She keeps busy and the house is always clean and meals are always ready. But if I want an 'I Love You', I have to say it first and hope she replies the same. She doesn't understand what I have built for us and she doesn't respect me for doing it. She thinks I was just smart and lucky. She is partially correct, but I have worked very hard to get the business to where it is.

Should be living the dream. If my wife desired me and showed her love for me, I would be. I would rather be scraping by financially and feel loved than live the way I do. We were happier the first few years of marriage when we were broke. Money does not a marriage make.


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## Caribbean Man

anotherguy said:


> This is all BS. All of it.
> 
> 'nothing wrong with being gainfully employed'. wow.. how forward thinking of you. ;-)


Dude,
Taken in context , my statement was meant to convey that a woman can either decide to be a SAHM or pursue her career.

This has nothing to do with powerful women CEO's, but it has everything to do with women making the right choices in men who want to marry them.
Men are supposed to be the ones who actually bring home the money.

You need to aim a little higher, you're aiming _below the waistline._

I have publicly stated onthis forum many times that my wife is my business partner.
I got rid of my other MALE business partner.
When I was out of a job and trying to start my business, my wife was gainfully employed.
When the business started making money, she quit her job.

The point is that every woman has a right to look for a man who is well off and who loves her. There is absolutely no rule saying that she cannot have both.
Just like there is absolutely no rule stating that if she marries a man on low income who professes to love her,
That their marriage would not fail.

No B.S in that.


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## TiggyBlue

I guess I have never thought of a mans income being a attractive prospect because i'm capable of making my own money and material object's mean next to nothing to me.
I would rather be with someone more physically attractive than financially attractive.


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## anotherguy

Caribbean Man said:


> ...You need to aim a little higher, you're aiming _below the waistline._
> 
> ...No B.S in that.


Yes, my bad. That wasn't my intent, but I do sincerely apologize.


----------



## turnera

> I feel like I'm at the other end of this spectrum. I've been fully employer for 30 years (software developer) and have always done well with investing, etc. I made sure we paid off the house and cars. Still, my wife of 29 years doesn't see the sacrifices I made as something worthwhile. She got to be a stay at home mom when the kids were little. All that and more.
> 
> But as of now there are no replies when I say "I love you". Not sure what women really are thinking.


Well, THAT woman is saying she has lost respect for you along the way and you're no longer an alpha male. Read No More Mr Nice Guy to figure out how to become alpha again, and then she'll start responding.


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## turnera

abitlost said:


> I would rather be with someone more physically attractive than financially attractive.


 I'd pick a man who takes pride in earning his income, no matter WHAT the income is. Who doesn't shirk responsibility. And who isn't financially irresponsible. Doesn't matter how much the money is.


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## anotherguy

turnera said:


> Well, THAT woman is saying she has lost respect for you along the way and you're no longer an alpha male. Read No More Mr Nice Guy to *figure out how to become alpha again*, and then she'll start responding.


Oh god. More of it. Im going to start pointing this out everytime I see it.

The self-adopted TAM cure-all - even though you have NO idea what is going on in that relationship, according to that post.


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## MrsKy

I know a trust fund idiot who is well off. He has never worked a day in his life, yet he always talks about how he has "his own house". I just remind him that all of what he has is from his parents and in their names. I couldn't be married to a trust fund brat. There would be no respect.


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## anotherguy

MrsKy said:


> I know a trust fund idiot who is well off. He has never worked a day in his life, yet he always talks about how he has "his own house". I just remind him that all of what he has is from his parents and in their names. I couldn't be married to a trust fund brat. There would be no respect.


A trust fund doesnt make someone a brat or an idiot.

People are people. I know (I really do) some thoughtful, exceptionally nice, genuine people who are very - startlingly wealthy. I mean private gulfstream wealthy. I also know a few complete jerks - that live up to every horrible strereotype you can think of - that treat people like total $hit because - basically - they dont care.

I also know 'regular' people, and some less fortunate, that are decent/jerks in about the same proportion.

If you are an a$$wipe, that is just what you are - regardless of income.. and what this entire thread is about, or should be.


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## turnera

I watch a lot of HGTV shows, and I always wonder which ones of them have trust funds to be able to afford their stuff.


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## COGypsy

anotherguy said:


> Again - the discussion is broken if one is shopping for financial security rather than looking for a compatible partner - and I believe more often than not - one that will ultimetely be more likely to fail.
> 
> I bet these women make slightly more than you do, in fact. Just guessing. Same rule applies though - if you are attracted to someone because they generate income - you are missing the point of life... and missing it badly. Same for superficial beauty.


I agree with you to some extent. I think that if the ONLY quality one is searching for is financial security, then there is something terribly wrong with the discussion. However, it's naive to not take things like that into account as part of the overall compatibility with a partner. Given the huge stressor that finances can be on a marriage, it only seems to make sense that the expectations of both partners as far as income and money management be a considerable, but certainly not only factor in choosing someone in the first place.


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## anotherguy

of course, but that wasnt the premise. Just to restate the OP's:

_Ladies if you find the perfect guy, however you found out he had a low to medium sized income and hoped to increase this after marriage would this be acceptable?_

So - the the question was, if the 'perfect guy' had a (possibly) 'medium sized income'. Is that acceptable?

I say - if you are a woman, and asking that qustion - you are doing it wrong. OP is a male, so this is all one gigantic circle jerk anyway. ;-)


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## MrsKy

anotherguy said:


> A trust fund doesnt make someone a brat or an idiot.
> 
> People are people. I know (I really do) some thoughtful, exceptionally nice, genuine people who are very - startlingly wealthy. I mean private gulfstream wealthy. I also know a few complete jerks - that live up to every horrible strereotype you can think of - that treat people like total $hit because - basically - they dont care.
> 
> I also know 'regular' people, and some less fortunate, that are decent/jerks in about the same proportion.
> 
> If you are an a$$wipe, that is just what you are - regardless of income.. and what this entire thread is about, or should be.


I did not say the trust fund is what made this man a jerk. 

Sorry, but I think it is bratty to never work for anything in one's life. True adults are not comfortable with contributing nothing to society and sponging off rich parents.

What made this man an idiot is that he behaved like he was so smart and capable, yet he had no experience in the areas he was so obnoxiously opinionated about.


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## DTO

aribabe said:


> Low income, great guy... no i would not date him
> 
> Medium income, great guy... yes, absolutely ( if i wasn't married )
> 
> 
> Money and financial comfort is important to me. Being a "great guy" doesn't get any bills paid... sorry. When i was out searching for a husband/boyfriend, i was not just looking for someone great. I was looking for someone that i could see myself with long term. And long term , I'd like financial security. I want a family and children and i would not feel comfortable starting that with a man with a low income who "hoped" to increase it after marriage.


So it is about lifestyle ultimately. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out.


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## DTO

SadSamIAm said:


> She doesn't understand what I have built for us and she doesn't respect me for doing it. She thinks I was just smart and lucky.


Got that one too in my married days. I guess it allows the ladies to say "you're not better or harder working - could have happened to anyone" - like we won the lottery or something.


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## DTO

I'll preface this by saying that there is nothing wrong with making income (within reason). Most people aspire to have a comfortable home, kids, etc. and a decent income is important to do that well.

Some words of caution though:

1) Understand what a reasonable goal is. The U.S. median wage is around $40,000; only about 1 in 10 people nation-wide makes $100,000 or more. Sobering statistics to be sure, esp. when one considers that even $100,000 does not buy much these days.

2) Understand that you cannot make anyone pay you anything. A person can decide to be a better sex partner, lose a few pounds, be a better cook and accomplish those things all by himself or herself. Getting a better job (assuming you are not seriously underemployed) requires several years of preparation and somebody willing to pay more. This ongoing crappy economy ought to make it clear that effort is often well-divorced from reward.

3) Understand the competition you face for what you want. I recall this guy on TAM saying he made a decent wage, but his wife refused to have sex with him - insisting he needed to make $100,000 to be getting any. Had I had the opportunity to talk to this woman, I would have asked (aside from the moral implications of intentionally refusing sex) whether she realizes she is asking for a 1 in 10 guy, and whether she was prepared to up her own game and be a 1 in 10 woman.

I'll be honest. Making money has not been a problem most of my life, and things are looking up after getting my MBA. Intelligence and work ethic are among my best traits. I know full well that if I were making $100,000 I will have a decent choice in women. I know that if I make it to $150,000 (and so on) my choices will multiply as I further set myself apart from the average dude.

I've found that just like lots of dudes think they are a gift to women but don't appreciate they don't stack up, lots of women think they will have no problem catching a really well off guy but don't realize how few guys there are making $100,000 or more. If getting that high income earner is really a big deal to you, make sure you have what it takes to land him.


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## golfergirl

workingandaerobics said:


> I posted before our situation but was reluctant so I deleted. Personally I put all the emphasis on the man himself. Money is important but the heart and person themselves are the most important. I had my career when we met and married. He worked construction for considerably less income. He was doing something careless and against my wishes when he broke his neck. He broke his neck at C4 a complete C4 spine break it was a bad, bad break, they had to put a rod in. He is completely paralyzed from the neck down with positively no chance of ever regaining any movement whatsoever. He only has slight head movement and that will be it period. When I first got him home he still had to wear the soft neck brace collar for a long time, one of those small white ones and he was still learning to use his sip puff electric wheelchair. This is a tube like a straw that he puffs into and sucks on to move it around. Of course this was THE end of his construction position. He can never go outdoors alone ever again or be alone. A caregiver is with him when I am at work. I told him that he HAD to learn to use a voice activated computer and then take college classes so he could get a degree and have a career that he can do all on computer. It was tough, he had to deal with knowing he could never use tools and work on cars etc ever again and having to be stuck inside with me permanently. He was not happy about me making him set in front of a computer still wearing the soft collar while he learned the voice controls and I taught him what I know about computers. I flat told him, sweetheart I have to sit in front of a computer at work all day and now you will have to also a job is not always fun. It was tough love. I wish could take his place but I cannot. He is working hard and is going to get a degree. He might go into accounting or something. I am proud of him. He never dreamed he would be doing a computer job. I wish he did not have to but that is how things are. We sit around and complain about the joys of working with computers all day. He is my sweetheart soul mate.


You sound like a true partner and your husband sounds like a strong man. Best wishes for him to achieve his goals. Income can change - not even through choice or conscious decision. Character doesn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aribabe

I would say that it is ultimately about lifestyle. Having a finacially comfortable lifestyle is something that's very important to me. I defintiely agree that there's nothing wrong with it.



DTO said:


> So it is about lifestyle ultimately. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michael A. Brown

As long as the guy is responsible enough and qualities are good, why not? Maybe after your marriage, you can help each other to increase your income and even have a business with your own.


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## KnK

Plain and simple yes from me.

H did NOT have a job when we met. Neither when we where married but I was very confident in him. Now he not only has a steady job , close to home (which I love) he is being trained now to take the manager position!


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## *LittleDeer*

I'm going to be honest and say it matters. 
I don't care if he doesn't earn millions but I want him to be ambitious enough to want to provide for his family. 

That's attracrive.

I have dated men with no ambition and who even didn't mind if I was the bread winner. These men did not posses what I needed to stay attracted to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

Growing up poor, one of the things that really ranked high with me was marrying someone who cared more about character, and our relationship, than finances. I was very fortunate to win over my wife after dating so long. We started off struggling, then the premature birth of children really made things tough. Earlier, I had dropped out of college while we were engaged because she had very serious struggles with her bipolar depression. So, being a machinist as opposed to a college graduate didn't matter to her. But she said that she always appreciated how driven I am. I worked as an off-shift facility superintendent (managing supervisors) while attending up to seven classes per semester to graduate. She, however, made the greater sacrifices. She had become a nurse practicioner, but worked weekends so she could be home with the kids when I worked, and became very gifted in making things great in the way we ate, dressed, and took care of our home. She instilled values in the kids, teaching them that name brands didn't matter as much as being practical, and we both taught them to volunteer their time and even allowances to charity.

It really bothered me to read a NYT article a few years ago (I can't remember the name) about how men without college degrees sometimes find it hard to marry again if they divorce in middle age. Yes, I ultimately got two degrees, but I think the emphasis should be on character qualities. A person with character and integrity will work hard ... even if the income isn't high. They'll work hard to take care of their partner's needs if their income is cut. I'm not saying that there aren't standards that men hold for women that are really unfair, but I think the thing that originally made our country (US) great was an emphasis of a person's character over their status.

I look at it from two perspectives. As I said, I grew up poor, and we struggled in the early days of marriage, but I've been fortunate in my career. But the one thing that has stayed constant is my wife's almost complete focus on non-financial elements of our marriage. We just relocated with my employer again, and I couldn't wait to surprise her when we started the house-hunting, telling her that it was well past time for her to get the home that she has always wanted, but never asked for.


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## Cosmos

Good post, Halien. Low income doesn't necessarily mean lack of ambition, drive and integrity - nor the inability to handle finances well.

During my life I've known couples start off with nothing and end up with everything, and I've known couples start off their marriages with everything and end up bankrupt in middle-age.


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## Tall Average Guy

aribabe said:


> I would say that it is ultimately about lifestyle. Having a finacially comfortable lifestyle is something that's very important to me. I defintiely agree that there's nothing wrong with it.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree it is not wrong. Everyone has the right 

I will say that I was very careful not to marry someone that put a lot of responsibility on lifestyle. I make good money and take pride in taking care of my family so that my wife can stay home to raise our children. But I wanted some one that wanted me for more than that. Crap happens, and people lose jobs through no fault of there own. I did not want a women who would start looking around if things got tough financially.


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## Broken at 20

Well, what do people consider a low income?


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## aribabe

Well i have to say we're almost complete opposites then , i was very careful to marry a man that DID put a lot of responsibility on lifestyle. That has a lot to do with why i married an older man (8 years older actually).

Things do happen, that's true, but marrying a man with a low income still seems like a worse idea than marrying a man with a higher income. Especially if both of the guys are great men. 

My husband's perfect for me in that sense, he understands and respects that financial comfort is important to me. much like i understand that my being physically attractive is important to him.

He wouldn't have married me if i was a 160+ lb great woman and i wouldn't have married him if he was a broke/low income great guy.

It just works for us :smthumbup:




Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree it is not wrong. Everyone has the right
> 
> I will say that I was very careful not to marry someone that put a lot of responsibility on lifestyle. I make good money and take pride in taking care of my family so that my wife can stay home to raise our children. But I wanted some one that wanted me for more than that. Crap happens, and people lose jobs through no fault of there own. I did not want a women who would start looking around if things got tough financially.


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## anotherguy

aribabe said:


> ...He wouldn't have married me if i was a 160+ lb great woman and i wouldn't have married him if he was a broke/low income great guy. It just works for us...


Uhm OK. Good for you? I guess?


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## aribabe

Thanks anotherguy 



anotherguy said:


> Uhm OK. Good for you? I guess?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy

I've got a solid income. But - with the last three years of my marriage - and with some of the lifestyle choices made by my Ex and I together (SAHM) - I've also got a lot more debt than I am personally comfortable with.

AND I have two children who will both be going to college sometime in the not so distant future.

So - while I can pay the bills (and always have) - I'm in no position to wine and dine anyone.

This is a big part of what holds me back from trying to date again. I know that women "say" that you don't have to spend a lot of money on them when dating - but this thread hasn't necessarily proved that to be the truth.


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## ScarletBegonias

nice777guy said:


> So - while I can pay the bills (and always have) - I'm in no position to wine and dine anyone.
> 
> This is a big part of what holds me back from trying to date again. I know that women "say" that you don't have to spend a lot of money on them when dating - but this thread hasn't necessarily proved that to be the truth.


what i can't figure out is why women feel they deserve this?Why can't it be equal when dating?

Is dating an expense that the man is solely responsible for still to this day??

I'd rather have the honest guy who says he can't afford things than the poser who spends the money anyway.


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## nice777guy

ScarletBegonias said:


> what i can't figure out is why women feel they deserve this?Why can't it be equal when dating?
> 
> Is dating an expense that the man is solely responsible for still to this day??
> 
> I'd rather have the honest guy who says he can't afford things than the poser who spends the money anyway.


The advice that I've received here is to keep dates simple. Instead of dinner - do coffee. Instead of a movie - do ice cream.

Must also admit that some of this is one MY shoulders as well. I would PREFER to pay - especially on a first date.

Something I saw recently on facebook - women want a man who can make them laugh AND feel safe. So - basically - a Ninja Clown...

Or - a Ninja Clown with Income.

My path is clear. Currently focusing on making animal balloons while not being seen...


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## COguy

The beauty of dating around a lot is that it has forced me to not try to be that kind of "chivalrous". I couldn't afford to take that many women out even if I wanted to. So it forces me to be honest and up front about splitting everything.

And the best part, is that if they aren't down for it (so far no one has said anything), I don't feel bad about the boot.

I'm not interested in seeing someone if they expect me to pay for the date. And that's not because I'm cheap, my default tendency is to want to pay for everything. I'm just not interested in that kind of entitlement factor.


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## costa200

Hmmm my girl refused to let me pay for stuff when we were starting out... Some weird notion i was buying her if i payed for everything... I was OK with it. I got to bake and eat the cookies


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## DTO

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree it is not wrong. Everyone has the right
> 
> I will say that I was very careful not to marry someone that put a lot of responsibility on lifestyle. I make good money and take pride in taking care of my family so that my wife can stay home to raise our children. But I wanted some one that wanted me for more than that. Crap happens, and people lose jobs through no fault of there own. I did not want a women who would start looking around if things got tough financially.


Wise words. My ex did exactly that. I'm still in good shape - making sure a future partner (if there is one) either is low maintenance or brings as much to the table as I do is a priority.

I only mention this because it astounds me that people don't consider this and place a priority on not being alone. I occasionally get advice that a lady would love to share in what I have (materially) and I should go find someone. :scratchhead:


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## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> Growing up poor, one of the things that really ranked high with me was marrying someone who cared more about character, and our relationship, than finances.





> It really bothered me to read a NYT article a few years ago (I can't remember the name) about how men without college degrees sometimes find it hard to marry again if they divorce in middle age. Yes, I ultimately got two degrees, but I think the emphasis should be on character qualities. * A person with character and integrity will work hard ... even if the income isn't high. They'll work hard to take care of their partner's needs if their income is cut.* I'm not saying that there aren't standards that men hold for women that are really unfair, but I think the thing that originally made our country (US) great was an emphasis of a person's character over their status.


By far, the best quotes on this thread ~ this is how I feel 100% about men....I look at noble Character & Integrity in how they live, work & how they treat their lady...... if those things are within the man....such a man will work hard for whatever he takes on in this life, he is one who can be depended upon.....Responsibility is in his veins..... he has a determination to provide....and such a man, as he builds his family.... he will put their welfare -their needs, even before his own - in all of his days. 

Great Post Halien ! :smthumbup:


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## YinPrincess

Well, my husband only makes $5.75 an hour, so apparently income doesn't mean a whole lot to me! LoL!! He's nowhere near "Mr. Perfect" either. I never judged him on the amount of money he makes, and in the beginning he was a very nice guy who still managed to treat me.

I miss those days! :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zzyzx

I'm low income at the moment as I'm living in my parents' house in order to assist my father who had a stroke a couple of months ago. My father needs help, my mother needs help caring for him and I can give it even though that means I've had to set aside my full-time pursuit of income. I'm good with what I'm doing for them and I'm OK with the possible open-ended nature of this. When the situation gets to where I'm not needed any more, then I'm moving out again, just can't say when.

But ... it's hell with my dating life. Women tell me that's wonderful to my face and then never return my calls. Nice, that. So I've given up dating, now I just go dancing and I just do not talk about my situation anymore. This income s--t matters to women, oftentimes it matters more than they will admit to. I'm not mad about that, it's just the way it is and I have to take it. Not asking for help or pity, just offering my $.02.


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## heartsbeating

braveheart2009 said:


> Ladies if you find the perfect guy, however you found out he had a low to medium sized income and hoped to increase this after marriage would this be acceptable?


Oh I could never be with the perfect guy.....I prefer someone more real than that 


My husband and I met young. He was no Bruce Wayne but I saw character traits in him that I admired and respected. The various jobs he did, he undertook with pride....when he was employed to wash dishes/clean tables at a cafe, he quickly recognized the business could be making more by trading at different times and adjusting the menu. The cafe owner (who was in his late 30's) listened and undertook his suggestions. Hubs was 17 at the time. He swapped washing dishes for pulling coffees, rearranged the cafe so it was more inviting, increased customers/revenue, ended up running much of the cafe for the owner and helped turn the place around. He wasn't earning much, he didn't have anything to his name. 

We'd just started dating. I remember going to the cafe to wait for him to finish work. He got me a cold drink and I sat at one of the tables near the window and observed him making coffees and chatting with the regular customers. Every so often he'd look over at me and smile. 

He's now a corporate exec. At his interview they overlooked him not having a degree/university education, as what he's achieved and his experiences that relate to his present role speak volumes for him. Yet he has a balance with work that I love. And he's not a yes man either. Sometimes life might be easier for him if he was lol, but that's not what he's about. I dig that. He wears a suit but his daydream is actually to be a short order cook. I love that about him too. Currently he chooses his focus to be on the goals and responsibilities we share as a couple.

However when we lived overseas, I secured employment but he couldn't catch a break. Again I observed his drive to make it happen for himself. I helped keep us afloat during that time and that was hard for him. I under-estimated how much that affected him. While he expressed he appreciated I could have our back, he also really struggled with not being able to financially provide. His ambition and persistence was still there though. I don't know if I'd have that same drive; he never gave up trying. Started his own projects to generate income and then to be actively involved, volunteered with building community gardens...... I thought just as highly of seeing him in action this way. As for dates, he'd surprise me by telling me he'd be picking me up for a lunch-date. My favorite drink at the ready in the car, he'd make a simple picnic and take me to the park. Dates don't need to cost much!


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## COguy

Zzyzx said:


> But ... it's hell with my dating life. Women tell me that's wonderful to my face and then never return my calls. Nice, that. So I've given up dating, now I just go dancing and I just do not talk about my situation anymore. This income s--t matters to women, oftentimes it matters more than they will admit to. I'm not mad about that, it's just the way it is and I have to take it. Not asking for help or pity, just offering my $.02.


Maybe you shouldn't bring that up? I mean to me that conversation shouldn't be addressed until it's awkward that you haven't invited someone over to your place yet. At that time, she'll have known you a while and hopefully understood that you're not a loser who can't make it on their own.

If you're mentioning this in the first few dates you're doing something wrong. This isn't genital warts or telling someone you're still married, you don't have to bring up ALL your dirty laundry to someone.


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## ScarletBegonias

my exso lived with his parents when I started dating him.I thought it was sweet that he was helping them out when they were struggling.He was ashamed of it and felt like a loser...I didn't see it that way though.


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## turnera

COguy said:


> If you're mentioning this in the first few dates you're doing something wrong. This isn't genital warts or telling someone you're still married, you don't have to bring up ALL your dirty laundry to someone.


 The first thing I thought was that maybe you brought it up because you thought it would make you look more impressive, helping your father and all...?


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## ScarletBegonias

COguy said:


> If you're mentioning this in the first few dates you're doing something wrong. This isn't genital warts or telling someone you're still married, you don't have to bring up ALL your dirty laundry to someone.


I'm wondering if the dates are asking about his living situation as part of making conversation? "so do you rent or have you taken advantage of the buyers market?"

something like that perhaps?

I think being up front about something you know your date might not like is a good thing.It saves time.You get to see which ones will like you for who you are and which ones like you for what they think they can get out of you.


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## COguy

I wouldn't lie about it, but I wouldn't willingly bring it up anytime in the beginning. If someone asks, you could say, "my father is sick so I'm living with him so I can take care of him until he gets better." and then leave it at that.

If you bring it up like you're ashamed of it, you'll sound pathetic.


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## fianceofangler

braveheart2009 said:


> Ladies if you find the perfect guy, however you found out he had a low to medium sized income and hoped to increase this after marriage would this be acceptable?


It was acceptable in the past but now it is not. I am planning on leaving him because he doesn't believe in himself as much as I do. I have been his biggest cheerleader but he still limits himself. This will be a big problem in the future.

Next time I will go with the well off guys. In the past I avoided them but I have learned my lesson.


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## turnera

Wow. So much to comment on...


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## nice777guy

turnera said:


> Wow. So much to comment on...


Waiting...!!!


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## turnera

Nah, no reason to T/J.


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## SadSamIAm

What about the reverse?

Guys with High Incomes?

If you are with a guy with a high income, will you stay even though you do not have much desire for him?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

SadSamIAm said:


> What about the reverse?
> 
> Guys with High Incomes?
> 
> If you are with a guy with a high income, will you stay even though you do not have much desire for him?


Absolutely not! I need to be loved, feel love, and the adore my husband.

Money is not success.... Respect, happiness, love and family are what makes us successful. At least in my world it is. I want to be adored and I want to adore my husband, I have 3 wonderful and well behaved children, so I do consider myself extremely successful because I have all of these things.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Out of curiosity, what do you consider low income and high income?


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## COGypsy

turnera said:


> The first thing I thought was that maybe you brought it up because you thought it would make you look more impressive, helping your father and all...?


My thought is that it probably comes up talking about work/jobs/careers. It's a pretty common and generally innocuous starter conversation when you're first getting to know someone...


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## SadSamIAm

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you consider low income and high income?


Depends on where you live.

Where I live a family with low income would be a family with say less than $35,000. Family with high income I would say over $200,000. Just my opinion.


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## EnjoliWoman

At my age (44) I assume he isn't starting out, although a divorce can set one back a ways...

A decent home ... rent or own doesn't matter but shows me how he prefers to live. To me neat and clean matter more than if the sofa was from Rooms to Go or Pottery Barn. It shows he has personal standards. I have quite a few pieces from Good Will which I have sanded/stained/painted so it doesn't require a lot of money to furnish a place decently. 

A decent car - same principal as above. Is it relatively clean and in good repair? Mine is a nice 4-door car well maintained, 10 years old with nearly 200K miles but again, I make the most of what I have and take care of my car.

Personal ambition; an interest, passion, career - and ability to live within his means and manage his money.

What he actually earns doesn't matter as much as how he handles it. I have no idea how much my boyfriend earns. I know he has decent savings and investments that still have to be split in the divorce but I don't know if it's 50K or 200K. No clue. I think he earns about what I do, which is fine with me.


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## turnera

I'd rather see a guy who replaces his car when it needs it, but puts what he saves in not buying new cars every two years into a nice-sized savings account. So you live a nice life and never have to worry about money.


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## fianceofangler

fiance makes income enough for family but he doesn't think it is good enough. Having said that, there IS no family. Yes family is important that is why low income men are questionable.

I learned this the hard way after siding with the opposite view for years.


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## LearninAsWeGo

Women will generally hamper a guy from getting to good income, though. This is done both unintentionally (they distract from your school/career and consume resources with dates/kids/gifts/etc) and it's also done on purpose (insecurity, manipulation, etc). I don't think most women are intentionally "dream killers," but it happens... sometimes largely intentionally. You should really consider not getting married or engaged until you're done with school as far as you want to go. JMO.

If you advance, you might outgrow them and trade them in for a better/younger model. Laugh all you want, but it's true (same would go for a chubby girl who dates a chubby guy and then she loses weight, dresses better, etc... he will FREAK, as well he should). I should probably duck and cover after saying this stuff, but it's true. Sorry and JMO.


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## Zzyzx

COguy said:


> I wouldn't lie about it, but I wouldn't willingly bring it up anytime in the beginning. If someone asks, you could say, "my father is sick so I'm living with him so I can take care of him until he gets better." and then leave it at that.
> 
> If you bring it up like you're ashamed of it, you'll sound pathetic.
> 
> .
> .
> .
> 
> My thought is that it probably comes up talking about work/jobs/careers. It's a pretty common and generally innocuous starter conversation when you're first getting to know someone...


I never brought it up unless it came up in conversation. I'm not the least bit ashamed about my situation, but when the conversation comes up now, I'm a consultant. But I still don't bother dating because any woman who comes into my life is going to have to be OK with what's going on and I've already found such women to be nonexistent for all practical purposes. Puzzles me because I was low income before, but living independently and pursuing income, and I didn't have that problem then. Got to be something about living with the parents at my age, even if it's for a good cause. So I go out dancing and I get my interacting with women fix that way. Salsa for the win!



LearninAsWeGo said:


> Women will generally hamper a guy from getting to good income, though. This is done both unintentionally (they distract from your school/career and consume resources with dates/kids/gifts/etc) and it's also done on purpose (insecurity, manipulation, etc). I don't think most women are intentionally "dream killers," but it happens... sometimes largely intentionally.


I can speak from experience on this point... sadly. My ex cost me a promotion and I did not have another opportunity for almost 3 years. By which time she was gone. One more thing that cost me to be married to her and this one was not a small chunk of change. Definitely something to vet your prospective fiance for, among others.


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## Juicer

Well, I had a teacher in college, tell me some great advice. 
"Date all you want. But your career comes first. Because your dating life will improve as your career improves. Improving your dating life won't do jack for your career."

And he was very right.


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## fianceofangler

Juicer said:


> Well, I had a teacher in college, tell me some great advice.
> "Date all you want. But your career comes first. Because your dating life will improve as your career improves. Improving your dating life won't do jack for your career."
> 
> And he was very right.


Unless you are female in which case you get 15 years to grow career then you must have enough dough for infertility treatments. Only, of course, if you are willing to give up the great career. Which most super successful women in 40s are not likely to do. 

At that point the man in in the picture is unlikely the person to volunteer to cut his career to be at home with fam.

I lived in NYC and knew so many sucessful women who had no kids and lived great. I chose to not be that person and start early instead of later. I am the black sheep of circle of friends. ATM one has a company in London, the other is doing intl finances in Germany. There was a time when we considered men a sport and bonded over this which horrible - I am glad I am no longer that person who is insanely career centered.

Ok, I know one married lady who has a great career (but pursuing it in D.C. as her equally successful husband is in Chicago) ...no kids.

Career comes first but there is still a sacrifice but not always from the woman's biological clock.

I have worked for people who thought starting a family with a successful woman would be great-then they get married and the woman is not keen on baby making, thusly the guy sacrifices and deals with a childlessmess pain.

Not that pain cannot be dealt with.

P.s. I wrote a whole lot solely based on experience. I do not claimed to know all, but this is as well as I can articulate myself so late in the evening. I hope I did not offend.


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## LearninAsWeGo

fianceofangler said:


> ...
> I lived in NYC and knew so many sucessful women who had no kids and lived great. I chose to not be that person and start early instead of later. I am the black sheep of circle of friends. ATM one has a company in London, the other is doing intl finances in Germany. There was a time when we considered men a sport and bonded over this which horrible - I am glad I am no longer that person who is insanely career centered.
> ...
> I have worked for people who thought starting a family with a successful woman would be great-then they get married and the woman is not keen on baby making, thusly the guy sacrifices and deals with a childlessmess pain.
> 
> Not that pain cannot be dealt with.....


This is good insight. I always thought it was so nice to marry a successful woman (had a LOT of money in her family, and from her PhD's potential). I figured it would take a lot of pressure off - and her family's riches did provide good cushion while we were in doctoral programs, but it's not a major factor at all long term. It has more pitfalls than upside to be with a rich/successful woman IMO, and besides, I have my own money and it helps your sense of male self worth to be the major provider. Mostly, it was inevitably going to be a drain on her career and her social life if we'd had kids. Luckily, she got caught in an affair early during my residency, and I cut her loose before we'd had kids or even bought a decent home.

I guess I'm "old school," but the rich/career woman is just not real attractive to me anymore (although I seem to attract them for some reason). I think those heavily career oriented women function almost just like guys do. Many of them play the field to advance their career or flirt and date just due to the ego boost from it (like most men). Even if they have fairly solid values or boundaries, they also have significant potential to be unfaithful since they don't "need" their man and usually work with many other successful men and travel a fair amount. They will have many male "friends" at work (if they're unwise) and they will have male bosses (that's a given in 99% of industries). We all know that's a dangerous place to be if the woman is reasonably hot and her own home sex/love relationship ever struggles.

Most importantly, outside of being clean and organized (since they're type A), very few of the career women have much semblance of homemaking skills (cooking, child relationships, decorating, gardening, etc). They usually just eat out a lot, and would have a nanny. That could work, but it's not ever what I'd want to do. Why have a home and kids if you're going to put them on auto-pilot? 

I think it'll be interesting to see where our country goes with this. They say the best form of birth control is to educate the women. Heck, I did my post-doc training with dozens of intelligent, successful, and fairly attractive women who had no kids and were 30+. The dating pool gets smaller and smaller for women as they get more successful; they need a guy who is as/more successful than they are if they don't want it to be a big problem for both parties involved (she feels used, he feels like less of a man if she's the bread winner). The breakdown of the American family structure with increased divorce, etc can be related largely to the empowerment of women in the workplaces. It means less time for family/kids/romance, less "need" for the man, and many more available successful partners in the workplaces. While it's good women don't "depend" on men for everything anymore, it's not such a good thing for families. I think we will continue to see more and more divorce, and "old fashioned" women will get harder and harder to find. I'm real glad I have a great one now. JMO


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## Jane_Doe

Don't worry, I'm sure the 91 cents women make compared to a man's dollar, a lack of flexi-time and a diminishing amount of benefits for new mothers in the workplace will keep many women in the kitchen for a long while yet.


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## fianceofangler

I am a big fan of SAHDs and SAHMs. 

I knew a woman who managed various projects in different parts of the country and also helped managed projects in an Asian country. Her co-workers were mostly men. American co-workers needed nurturing and it annoyed her. Her biggest trouble came from males came from cultures that were not as evolved in civil rights as much as we are here. I will not name that large country. But this culture was very open about alienating her because she was a woman on their mgmt level.

Anyway she was successful but was always trying to "win a race." She adopted children in her early forties and intended to only work for 2-3 years when they were babies, but she was on her 8th year of working when I met her and yes she and her equally successful husband had a FT nanny who was paid well.

Am still trying to figure this one out without jumping to conclusions., they were adopted from the other side of the planet. Children are not a commodity.


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## lfortender

Sometimes i see my wife so ambitious. I have a good income but is not a secure one and is risky, anytime i can lose it because depends other people, i hate it. I don't like! A year ago my dreams came true i opened a store but it didn't work out so we're selling now.
The problem is i'm scared if i lose my job or get a low income. We dont have kids yet but she alwas tell me we should buy a new home which i agree, buy another car, another dog, buy this, buy that, she wants to much sometimes! I'm scared!


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## SimplyAmorous

Zzyzx said:


> I'm low income at the moment as I'm living in my parents' house in order to assist my father who had a stroke a couple of months ago. My father needs help, my mother needs help caring for him and I can give it even though that means I've had to set aside my full-time pursuit of income. I'm good with what I'm doing for them and I'm OK with the possible open-ended nature of this. When the situation gets to where I'm not needed any more, then I'm moving out again, just can't say when





Zzyzx said:


> I never brought it up unless it came up in conversation. I'm not the least bit ashamed about my situation, but when the conversation comes up now, I'm a consultant. But I still don't bother dating because any woman who comes into my life is going to have to be OK with what's going on and I've already found such women to be nonexistent for all practical purposes. Puzzles me because I was low income before, but living independently and pursuing income, and I didn't have that problem then. Got to be something about living with the parents at my age, even if it's for a good cause. So I go out dancing and I get my interacting with women fix that way. Salsa for the win!


See, people can say I am full of







if they want.. but I would find THIS very loving & sacrificial for a son to do...... this alone would NOT break my interest... I mean, sure I would want to know what he has accomplished in his life, what type of Job he has/ will go back too, to gleam the whole picture... ... but being there for your ailing parents in their time of Need... I'd think to myself... "that's a hell of a good guy.... imagine how he'd treat his wife !!" 

Now... granted, I am very picky in other ways...the guy has to be good looking/ that sexual attraction thing going on ..having FUN together, laughing & preferably his having Time & Touch near his top love languages....these things are very important to me & being able to live within his means. 

If his parents lived in the county, Oh what a plus! I like frugal....I like country. I wouldn't throw a good guy to the wind over hearing he lived with his parents ..I'd be open to the "full story" ...a circumstance in time does not define a whole person. 

I've never been the average woman though... I prefer sensitive introverted Beta men too.


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## arbitrator

My STBXW is purported to be quite comfortable from a monetary standpoint. To the extent that she conveyed to me prior to marriage that I wouldn't have to work again as we'd have joint farming duties to perform.

I never snooped into her finances as I would consider doing that as being disrespectful and that just isn't my nature.

Now she hooks up with men from her past and then rumor has it that she conveys to her family/close friends that our breakup was largely over the fact that she considered herself to be a "Sugar Mama."

Then she abandons me and the boys so she could go make time with her out-of-town Stage Door Johnny's that her family still has no knowledge of.

Truth be known, I would greatly take a poor honest, caring woman any day, much rather than a rich, lying, self-centered one.


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## Zzyzx

SimplyAmorous said:


> See, people can say I am full of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if they want.. but I would find THIS very loving & sacrificial for a son to do...... this alone would NOT break my interest... I mean, sure I would want to know what he has accomplished in his life, what type of Job he has/ will go back too, to gleam the whole picture... ... but being there for your ailing parents in their time of Need... I'd think to myself... "that's a hell of a good guy.... imagine how he'd treat his wife !!"
> 
> Now... granted, I am very picky in other ways...the guy has to be good looking/ that sexual attraction thing going on ..having FUN together, laughing & preferably his having Time & Touch near his top love languages....these things are very important to me & being able to live within his means.
> 
> If his parents lived in the county, Oh what a plus! I like frugal....I like country. I wouldn't throw a good guy to the wind over hearing he lived with his parents ..I'd be open to the "full story" ...a circumstance in time does not define a whole person.
> 
> I've never been the average woman though... I prefer sensitive introverted Beta men too.


Thanks. You are exceptional in your preferences. My ex does not share your opinion. I live in the city and women like you do not grow on trees around here. So I count my blessings and get on with it.


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## turnera

Maybe it's the crowd you run with.


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## costa200

Damn Zzyzx, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place! Your troubles with women are to be expected. 

Yes, they'll "how noble of you" and then run to the other side. I hope you find a woman who appreciates you.


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## Un_FairDeal2

I've heard all commentation...and agree with most but what do you do with a person who is not willing to work at all? That is my situation. My husband says he will do better but some kinda way, I feel he's comfortable with me doing it all...:slap:just like my first husband. I am tired most times and usually broke and feel like if I'm going to do bad...why not do it by myself? I mean its just agitating me to no end for him to run around town aloof like he has no obligation...and bills? He doesn't feel what I feel. To me...we are disconnected.  Were he the guy that I saw getting out in the trenches and hustling to do better...maybe I wouldn't feel so disdainful. But, as we have it now, I'm ready to just part ways and separate ties. I wish someone would find me who is either more or equally responsible to a relationship than I am.


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## turnera

Sounds like you have a pattern of picking Users, Un FairDeal2. Maybe you'd be better off just being alone. Make them earn you. 

Here's a hint, though: you'll continue to pick the same 'guy' unless you go through some good therapy to figure out why you're attracted to that kind in the first place. There's a great book about that called Getting The Love You Want; it discusses how we end up picking our spouses to fill a hole, but without some clarity on what we're doing, we end up picking people just as messed up as we are!


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## arbitrator

Divorce itself can absolutely wreak havoc on one's financial situation, and to that, I am no stranger. While I may be lacking in someone's perception of the proper amount of monetary funds that a person should have, it does not diminish the love, concern, and the care that I have for the people that I love or choose to offer love to.

If a person cannot adhere to that, then it's greatly indicative of where their priorities in life are truly situated!


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