# Will I forever think of her as "my wife that cheated"?



## Forest

I'm in month 4 since the dreaded D Day. We've been married 25 years.

About 20 years ago my wife and I were going thru the proverbial "rough patch". We had a young child, both working tough jobs. She was a young woman working in a male dominated field. I had a suspicion at the time, but she told me there was no one else. We both withdrew. Me because of her short temper, her because of my cold shoulder.

After a year of this, we had a big reconcile, trip to a marriage seminar, and re-established things. We didn't look back, and things improved.

Over the years, I still wondered if she'd told the truth. Several months ago I had a dream about her cheating. Then another one. Began re-examining the issue in my head, her actions at the time, and began wondering again. Probably a big mistake. I began to ruminate on this, and couldn't focus. Finally, I asked her.

She was sorrowful, and said it was true. She said she thought I knew, based on my actions, but didn't want to talk about it. Was going on during our bad year, then she ended the affair after our "reconcile". Though she denied it at the time, she thought I knew due to our actions as we reconciled.

She was, and is very supportive, regretful, sorry, and open with me. We've seen a counselor, and been thru all the emotions. I am badly obsessed with the images of the affair in my head. Hugely angry and bitter about this affair. Sometime I spew off into a rage, yelling at her.

I can remember thinking right after DDay, that I was probably 98% sure our marriage would survive. Divorce has always been unthinkable to me. I do consider divorce as a valid option when dealing with adultery, however. As this drags on, I find myself feeling like I may never been able to get over the anger, resentment and obsessing of the affair. I ponder whether divorce is the only way I could regain my honor and self respect. Do I owe it to future betrayed men not tolerate this? Still, I don't want to divorce, or endure any of the hardships that go with it.

Its the worst Catch 22. I don't want an unfaithful spouse, but don't want to divorce. Yet I must pick one or the other. What a crummy deal to be handed.

Well, I did a lot of talking without much asking. I guess I want to know if men can get over this horrible affliction of an unfaithful wife? I will concede that I have no worries about her now, and she's been faithful for the last 20 years. Still, it eats at me.


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## larry.gray

Your last line is confusing. Did she cheat 20 years ago and it's long past? Or did it only end last year?


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## ConanHub

It might have been twenty years ago but it just happened in your reality. I have seen men recover but it takes years and tons of work from a remorseful wayward wife. Your situation, honestly, seems to be the hardest thing for people to overcome. I have read other threads where a man finds out decades later and it really seems like a death blow because of too many years of deceit.

Your wife has a hell of a lot of groveling and working on herself to even give you a chance at remaining with her. You might not want to take divorce off the table. This woman acted like scum and then hid it from you for twenty years. She might think it was all in the past but she never dealt with it so you have a twenty year old wound. 

I am going to look up a book you both should read that might help. Be right back.


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## Graywolf2

I just want to clarify. You have been married 25 years and your wife had an affair 20 years ago? Has she been faithful for the last 20 years or only for the last year?


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## ConanHub

Hey. That book is "How to help your spouse heal from an affair" by Linda MacDonald.

Also, as Larry and the Graywolf have asked, what did that last line mean? Was it a typo or was your wife screwing around a year ago?:scratchhead:


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## Forest

My mistakes, for sure. She had the affair 20 years ago, for about 1 year. Nothing since then, sorry.


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## ConanHub

Thanks for the clarification.

What has she done and what is she doing to help you through this?


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## ConanHub

Also. Was the piece of sh!t scumbag that used your marriage like a toilet someone you knew? Did she work with him after she stopped sleeping with him? If so, for how long? What was the total length of their relationship, from the start of the affair till she never saw him again? Did others know? Friends or family?

Is this guy still around? It wouldn't hurt you to get a timeline with as much detail as you want and she can remember. This is old news to her but you need help to assimilate it all.


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## ConanHub

Sorry to machine gun you here. Anger is as normal as waking up in the morning and she has it coming. She needs to be accepting and never defensive of her affair when you are going through an anger phase. You need to feel it and express it and she needs to hear it and see what she has done to you. 

Hopefully you are allowing her to see you when you are experiencing sadness and pain. She needs to experience the damage she has caused by being with you while you are feeling it.

Just don't cross the line into abuse. Crappy emotions and words are slim payment for her level of betrayal.


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## Wolf1974

I don't think this is something you can ever get over. Best you can hope for is to accept it and move forward. It will haunt you the rest of your days. Can you live with that?


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## Confused&Afraid

You might need some professional help. Letting this stew might kill eventually your marriage.


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## 3putt

The question that keeps burning into me is how she kept it a secret all this time? 20 years? 

Pretty much all *truly* remorseful women just don't have it in them to cover this up for such an extended period of time.

How does she explain that?

Not trying to cast any more doubts your way as I know you have enough on your plate as it is, but, this simply doesn't compute under the normal 'rules' we see here. 

Makes me wonder....why now?


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## Forest

ConanHub said:


> Also. Was the piece of sh!t scumbag that used your marriage like a toilet someone you knew? Did she work with him after she stopped sleeping with him? If so, for how long? What was the total length of their relationship, from the start of the affair till she never saw him again? Did others know? Friends or family?
> 
> Is this guy still around? It wouldn't hurt you to get a timeline with as much detail as you want and she can remember. This is old news to her but you need help to assimilate it all.


It was a POS she worked with- with a smooth tongue, lousy marriage, and no scruples. I never knew him. She realized he was a jerk, quit the job, and never saw him again. It all carried on about 1 year. No one else knows, except me, wife, and POS, as far as I know.

Immediately after finding out, I contacted him, and told him to come out that day and settle the score with me. He went into panic, sissy, scurrying on the belly mode. Going to call the law, sue me if I touch him, and "Oh, would it help if I apologize?"

If I ever get my hands on him, he can try the apology then.

She kept quiet mostly because she thought I had somehow sniffed it out, but decided to let it slide in the name of reconciliation. Further, she was afraid of violence and mayhem (toward him) if she told me outright. There is no danger of violence toward her. I am a actual man.

Just can't tell if she will ever not seem tainted to me. Adultery is simply disgusting.


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## Forest

Oh shoot, I just realized what everyone meant by that last line in my original post. Big typo, which I edited and fixed. 

My head is mush, and typing is worse.


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## Graywolf2

You are in a very difficult situation. Your wife is two people. The faithful wife that has built a life with you for the last 20 years and the one that cheated on you 20 years ago. You may have divorced her with less of a history together (only 5 years) but you weren’t given the facts.

Your wife has had 20 years to adjust to this and you have just found out. Plus she knows every little detail of the affair and you know nothing. It will take a lot of time and communication to bridge that gap.



Forest said:


> About 20 years ago my wife and I were going thru the proverbial "rough patch". I had a suspicion at the time, but she told me there was no one else. After a year of this, we had a big reconcile, trip to a marriage seminar, and re-established things. We didn't look back, and things improved.
> 
> She was sorrowful, and said it was true. She said she thought I knew, based on my actions, but didn't want to talk about it.


That she thought you knew about the affair 20 years ago is crap and she knows it. That’s why she didn’t want to talk about that aspect now. You asked her point blank 20 years ago if she was having an affair and she denied it. Going to marriage counseling acknowledges trouble in the marriage not an affair. 



Forest said:


> She realized he was a jerk, quit the job, and never saw him again


Did she lie about why she quit her job? She had a young child with you and things were getting better. She realized that the other man was a jerk and you were the better option. She used the fact that you were suspicious to rationalize that you knew about the affair. She didn’t want to rock the boat and risk divorce and shame. 

So now you’re stuck. The wife that cheated on you 20 years ago doesn’t deserve to grow old with you and share your life and grandkids. The problem is that the wife you had for the last 20 years does.

A good marriage shouldn’t be thrown away. It’s like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The smart thing is to stay married but come up with some price she has to pay. 

The first thing I would do is nip that crap about you knew about the affair in the bud. Make her admit that it’s crap. She lied to you and deprived you of making an informed decision about remaining married 20 years ago.

It’s common for men get upset when their wayward wife pays no price whatsoever. I’m sorry usually isn’t enough. The price could be divorce but you continue to live together. It could be sex on demand, hotter sex or to tell people about what she did, etc. 

Was the other man married at the time? Tell his wife without telling your wife that you are going to do it. Your wife might warn the other man.

I think revenge affairs are a very bad idea if you plan to stay together. But you could ask her how she would feel if you did.


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## Philat

_Well, I did a lot of talking without much asking. I guess I want to know if men can get over this horrible affliction of an unfaithful wife? I will concede that I have no worries about her now, and she's been faithful for the last 20 years. Still, it eats at me. _

The answer is yes, plenty of betrayed husbands have gotten through this hell, reaching a point where they think of their W as someone who was once unfaithful, not someone who "is" an unfaithful wife.

It depends on your W and how she acts. In your favor is the fact that since Dday she has been remorseful, and that she has been faithful ever since the long-ago affair. On the down side is the fact that she hid it for 20 years. I'd say that, all things considered, your chances are good (more pluses than minuses). It won't be easy, and won't happen overnight. Counseling should help in your case. Good luck.


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## Forest

For Graywolf, 

She left the job because of a standing offer elsewhere, so it all seemed rational and non-suspicious at the time. She revealed to me after DDay that a big part of the reason was really to get away from him.

The POS was married, but divorced during this affair time. He later remarried, and divorced again, is now a prematurely old bald prune face scared of his own shadow.

I've had her over the coals about "why did you lie if you thought I knew" several times. It makes no sense, but she said she just couldn't admit, too ashamed, afraid, something. Its beating a dead horse now.


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## Graywolf2

Forest said:


> She left the job because of a standing offer elsewhere, so it all seemed rational and non-suspicious at the time. She revealed to me after DDay that a big part of the reason was really to get away from him.


I’m not saying that quitting her job was something you should have picked up on. I’m saying that she misrepresented why she left. Yet another lie to cover up the affair. 



Forest said:


> I've had her over the coals about "why did you lie if you thought I knew" several times. It makes no sense, but she said she just couldn't admit, too ashamed, afraid, something. Its beating a dead horse now.


Those are the reasons she lied, that part is true. I think she told herself many times over the years that you knew about the affair in order to feel less guilty. Now she believes it even though it makes no sense. It’s like a life preserver that she can’t let go of.


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## sammy3

Forest,

I had no problem reading or understanding your first post. Knew exactly what you were explaining.

You finding out about your wife affair, isnt too far off than anyone finding out about their spouse affair if they had a good marriage and started questing the behavior of their spouse. Yes there's the time factor involved, but with all affairs, one partner always lives in a the dark for some length of time. 

The reality is, your wife had an affair in your marriage weather it was 1 yr into it, or 20 years into it, or as my case 27 years into it. We now look at someone we thought we knew. We have to learn to be with that new person, we have to learn to love that new person, we have to learn to trust that new person, we have to learn to re-live with that new person, and be married to that new person. It puts our whole married life, and the life we thought we knew into a tail spin. 

I am trying with all my might not to see my h as my unfaithful soulmate, but there has just been so many bad fallouts, that has been related to the affair, it makes it really hard not to have it in my face. So I dunno, I guess it's all depend, but it's just fresh for you, and will take time to come to terms and understanding. 

It's a shame to toss a long term marriage...

-sammy





-sammy


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## larry.gray

Graywolf2 said:


> The first thing I would do is nip that crap about you knew about the affair in the bud. Make her admit that it’s crap. She lied to you and deprived you of making an informed decision about remaining married 20 years ago.


:iagree:

Yep. Tell her that she never again gets to make that claim because it is yet another lie. The biggest damage from affairs is the lying, and every time she states that she demonstrates she's not over lying to you.


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## larry.gray

I thing that's thrown around a lot around here is the idea of DNA testing the kid. Part of it is demonstrating that nothing she did back then could be trusted.


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## Graywolf2

larry.gray said:


> I thing that's thrown around a lot around here is the idea of DNA testing the kid. Part of it is demonstrating that nothing she did back then could be trusted.


:iagree:

You are not testing the kid, you are testing your wife.


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## Dyokemm

Forest,

I'm sorry you find yourself in this spot.

All I can say is every man has to decide for himself what he can forgive and what he can live with.

There is no shame to you either way, whether you choose to D or stay and forgive.

And I suggest you ignore POS from now on as long as he never inserts himself in your life again. His reaction already demonstrated to both of you that he is a p***y and a total piece of filth.

Leave him alone to live with the self-awareness that he is a chickens**t dirtbag. No matter how he spins your confrontation to himself, in his heart he knows its true.


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## WorkingOnMe

I would say that, for me, she would be tainted forever. Did they use condoms? Did she do it in your marital bed?


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## larry.gray

WorkingOnMe said:


> Did they use condoms? Did she do it in your marital bed?


Guys can vary greatly on whether they want to know such details. I would suggest you ask yourself if you want to know those details, and how you will react to either answer before you ask them.


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## ThePheonix

This may or may not mitigate the situation but when there are rough patches, cold shoulders, temporary separation and the like, egos and self confidence are at an all time low. Folks are far more vulnerable to attention from the opposite sex. There's a good possibility she wouldn't have done it if her days were brighter. (as evidenced by her history since.)
You can be as hard as you want about her keeping it secret. But, right or wrong, she didn't want to risk destroying what was left. Face it Dawg, wasn't the real reason you didn't pursue your inquiry of your admitted suspicions all these years was because you didn't want to upset the apple cart yourself?
After 20 years of her walking the line, is it really hurting anything to maybe cutting her some slack. Is it going to help to grind her to powder?


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## warlock07

She was lying when she was telling you that she thought you based on your actions. That is what she told herself to ease her guilt.

She had a one year affair. Not a one night stand or a short fling. The reason it ended which you will never know. Most likely the other guy ended up as a jerk or dumped her.

She never confessed her affair on her own. She only confessed it because she knew it was "safe" to do it now. 20 years on, you would not leave her. She would not have to face consequences to what she did. 

She robbed you 20 years of your life.There is nothing you can do to make her hurt as much as she hurt you. Nothing she/you can do will compensate for this 20 year betrayal.

What you need to do is what you feel would be the best for you. If you feel forgiving her would be the best thing for you, go about working on it. Not for her, for yourself. I have no idea how the last 20 years are but if you think they were good enough to help you move on from the pain in the long run.

What do you feel right now ?


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## larry.gray

warlock07 said:


> She robbed you 20 years of your life.There is nothing you can do to make her hurt as much as she hurt you. Nothing she can do will compensate for this 20 year betrayal.


Well.... nobody espouses revenge affairs here. They aren't helpful.

But if he wanted revenge? One up her, diddle a couple of women for a year. Then come clean in 2034.


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## LongWalk

Did you have a good sex life after reconciliation?

How about now since Dday?

Did your wife bear you children?

How old are your?

Has she gone into menopause?


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## manticore

ThePheonix said:


> This may or may not mitigate the situation but when there are rough patches, cold shoulders, temporary separation and the like, egos and self confidence are at an all time low. Folks are far more vulnerable to attention from the opposite sex. There's a good possibility she wouldn't have done it if her days were brighter. (as evidenced by her history since.)


But the problem here is that we don't know if the problems were created precisely because she was cheating, remember that many times WS (specially women) , began to treat with hostility their spouses during the affair and even look reasons and dumb excuses to fight to justify their affair, and they see as good and perfect their affair partner and as bad and toxic their spouse, we have plenty of examples of that behaviour here in TAM.


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## happi_g_more2

it happened 20 years ago, but you just found out recently. You have to go through all the same processing as you would have back then. Don't rug sweep it. Make sure you work through the issue.


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## manticore

Forest said:


> I can remember thinking right after DDay, that I was probably 98% sure our marriage would survive. Divorce has always been unthinkable to me. I do consider divorce as a valid option when dealing with adultery, however. As this drags on, I find myself feeling like I may never been able to get over the anger, resentment and obsessing of the affair. *I ponder whether divorce is the only way I could regain my honor and self respect.* Do I owe it to future betrayed men not tolerate this? Still, I don't want to divorce, or endure any of the hardships that go with it.


Forest, there are plenty of men that share this vision, don't think yourself as weird or peculiar, there was even a thread not long ago that was directed precisely to this topic, where it was discussed that whatever the BS decided to reconcile or not he/she should divorce to send a clear message to the WS and and to show that the BS was not going to be taken for granted.

I can think right now in 4 users that have taken this path:

Chris989: divorced inmediatly after DD but now almost 2 year later is still living with her XW in a exclusive relationship but letting her know that he can opt to go and begin a new realtionship with someone else, and he is leaning towards reconcilation.

Hard_to_detach: began divorce process, and wanted it concluded but until his last update he was begining the process of reconcilation.

The Flood: divorced inmediatly after DD, begin to date alot of women, he says that he don't want reconcilation but his XW is also one of the women he is dating so who knows what will happen.

Emptyshelldad: divorced inmediatly after DD, told his XW that he still loved her but that now she would have to prove herself worth of him, began to date other women but keep seeing his XW, and he is also leaning towards reconcilation.

there was also another user taht was divorcing his wife and then he would see if the relationship was salvageable, but I don't actually know if he gave a second chance to his STBXW "flabergasted".

here are some quotes of these users:



Emptyshelldad said:


> Conflicted to a point over the babies. She and the rest of my family are masters at using them to guilt me. They tell me they can't believe I would "abandon" my family. They all believe she made a one time mistake and that may very well be true. But a mistaken with no consequences is one that is doomed to be repeated over and over.
> 
> Hell even mistakes with consequences are scarcely learned from. So this is all about the fact that she will realize that she lost us, and it's important to end the old us completely and we can both decide if we want to pursue the new us free from obligation. But I'm sure ill see if she really wants me when she sees how easily I can move on. It's an extension of the 180 I guess. But it's for me to find whether or not I want to stay with her, or if I'm just staying cause I'm comfortable or afraid to leave.





Emptyshelldad said:


> So I'm telling her that her loyalty and trust account is severely over drawn so she can slowly build it back up by proving to me I'm her one and only forever....I don't have to be here waiting while she does that. In a few years if she has done as she professes she will do, then perhaps we can date again. But she will have to compete for my attention now. And I make great money and have every freedom of my schedule. So i plan on taking some of these young cute, sweet girls to the Caribbean and Hawaii and europe etc.
> 
> But i still pay all of her bills cause she is the mother of my children and i still care for her deeply.





flabergasted said:


> i have decided to file for a divorce. I was already 90% sure. Our state the divorce happens 6 months after filing, so there is nothing final done just by filing. however I do believe it will become permenant in 6 months.
> 
> I still have a lot of love in my heart for this women. We may spend the rest of our lives together, but this marriage is over. It has no chance of surviving if i simply try to reconcile. I have to completely leave. I have to make the situation such that I have no reason to be with her other than love. I want to provide her an opportunity to have no reason to be with me, other than love. Don't stay for guilt. Don't stay for obligation. Don't stay for a meal ticket. don't stay to avoid humiliation. Don't stay for the children.
> 
> Only when all of those things are no longer reasons for us to be together would I Know that the real reason we are together is love.



Another thing, don't let her or anybody tell you that the affair was 20 years ago and that you have to get over it. She had 20 years to feel regret, shame, to get over it and to forgive herself, for you the affair is as new as the moment you had confirmation of it, you are in the grieving process of your relationship and you have the right to decide what you are going to do without anybody's pressure.


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## 86857

I'm female but I think gender doesn't matter here. IMO a WS is simply a WS and gender doesn't come into it.

You're simply doing the journey all BS had to do, except 20 years later. No way around the fire, you have to go through it.

True remorse is a full confession at the time. She lied when you asked. She persuaded herself you knew yet she would have known full well like any normal person you would want to to know who OM was to have it out with him if nothing else, as you are doing now. Curiosity at least would have prompt a BS to ask. She sure would have asked if it was her. 

By lying she also denied you the opportunity of an informed decision on whether to stay at the time. IMO that is the worst WS can do. Mine did. All BS are owed at least that and not have someone controlling them, because that is what lying WS are doing. She also got let off the hook of the hardest and painful part of R for WS. They will do anything to avoid telling the truth. 

She did NC. . . eventually I guess. And she seems to have been transparent ever since. So other than confessing she seems to have done the rest right. 

Some BS learn to live with it and others can't. Depends on whether a PA is a dealbreaker for you. It helps that she has been faithful these past 20 years although now you may even question that. 

Sorry you found out so late. 

Yep, she will always be the wife who cheated simply because that is what she is. It's kinda hard to forget.


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## WhiteRaven

*Will I forever think her 'my wife who cheated?' - yes.* 

When you have good days, you won't think anything, but when you days are bad or worse, this thought will definitely suffocate you.

The truth is you spent 20 years of your life with her believing her lie. She may have been a great wife, a great mom, she may not be the horrible person she was 20 years ago, but sadly you were denied the chance to may an informed decision. Your choices were taken away. 

There are men who would separate for a few months, date other women and compare if their lives with or without their WS is better. Other men choose to go to MC, IC, start reading the bible, reconcile and live with a fear in the back of their minds their wives may cheat again. Still there are others who just end the marriage and move on with their lives. There is no correct path. Choose what you are comfortable with.


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## syhoybenden

I don't know man.

She lied by lies of omission while looking you straight in the eyes for 20 years.

She'd better start moving heaven and earth to make it up to you for the rest of her life.


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## RWB

Forest said:


> Well, I did a lot of talking without much asking. I guess I want to know *if men can get over* this horrible affliction of an unfaithful wife?...
> 
> I will concede that I have no worries about her now, *and she's been faithful for the last 20 years.* Still, it eats at me.


Forest,

It's not about "men" it's about *You.*... and getting over... that's at best a moving target. 

I'm 4+ years out, am I over it? Hardly, but I don't wake up with vomit in my throat, shaking, wondering why I should even be alive. So if that's "over it", I accept that.

One last thing... don't be so quick about *"been faithful for the last 20 years"*. Once a woman cheats on you "once" the safety are all off. 

Biggest LIE told on TAM is "one and done". My own wife admitted that after her 1st affair, she said the next was much easier to justify, no only because and me, but she had already crossed that line and she didn't have to wrestle the implications of her actions... water under the bridge.


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## Rottdad42

Just damn man. Reading this make me angry. Who does this? 20 years ago and she comes clean now. Man I can tell you right now I am angry for you. Man how do know your marriage for the last 20 years has been built on solid ground or sand. How do you prepare for the future, from this standpoint and know you trust her 100%. How do know she won't do this again. You don't. However, if she has been faithful since that day, forthcoming with all the information when you ask questions and is remorseful, then there is a chance that your marriage will survive. But for me just knowing you were right all those years, it would be extremely hard, for me, to continue in a lie of a marriage. I'm not in your shoes and therefore what I say could be a moot point, but I would not want to touch my wife, the mother of my children, life partner and best friend ever again after a year of her loving up another person. She couldn't shower enough to get that scumbags smell, off of her. Brother this is the worst. Good luck to you this will not be easy.


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## Trying2figureitout

You needed closure THEN. Without it this will haunt you forever. Sorry.


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## bfree

Forest, if I said to you to think of divorce not in the traditional sense of splitting up and living apart but as simply the end of a contract would that change things? In other words, you and your wife divorce but you continue to live together, stay a family, and other than you two nobody else needs to even know. The reason I ask is because in essence when your wife had her affair she broken the marriage contract. For the last 20 years your original marriage has been over, but nobody told you. By formalizing the breaking of the contract by voiding the "paper link" might that be a way for you to regain your honor? It could be a symbolic way for you to show her that since she has been a good wife for the last two decades you will stay with her and not disrupt her life but that there need to be consequences for her actions. It has been my experience that men tend to value the day to day closeness of the relationship more and women tend to put more weight on the actual marriage ties. That is, more men would be okay with living together for life but it is the women that want the security of the marriage contract. Maybe as a way of payment you can void the marriage but keep the relationship? Just a thought.


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## Forest

To specifically answer a few questions that have popped up:

There is no need for DNA testing, of that I'm sure, it is obvious; you'll just have to trust me. 

I have been heavy into details, and she swears to me there were always condoms, it was never in our house or bed. I have the other details, just not really into sharing them. It has helped me cope and relieved some worries.

Sex life after the "reconcile" has been good, no complaints. No cold spells. No more children. Rather not get into the specifics on age and menopause.

I've also lambasted her over the 20 years of secrecy, and told her the same things put forward here: our marriage was sort of a sham, she convinced herself I knew to ease pain, etc. I have not been easy on her, to say the least.

Some of the strongest things I've expressed is how disgusting and nasty I feel her actions were. Sleeping with two men during the affair period, being seduced, short changing her family. The POS was also several years older, and she was just mid 20s, which I've also called disgusting. Now, however, POS is all terrified and begging that he is too old now, I'd whip him too bad. I told him he should have thought about that before.

For Manicore: I appreciate your thought-out and researched post. Very enlightening, and tells me what I kind of realize inside. Good info

For WhiteRaven, Soyhoy, RWB, and especially Rottdad: you guys are right on the money. Somehow, knowing others are mad on my behalf feels good. I've told her several times how I fell the last 20 years were somewhat of a sham, and the marriage since built on sand. Infuriating. I've also told her I considered the marriage over once the affair started. For awhile I took off my ring.

Our M/C though, has been good, wise, patient. She is trying to prod me to accept what I already know. This happened, and I can either walk away or stay. If I stay, I will only be happy if I try to overcome the anger and move on. Easier said than done.

I told my wife the other day that I am unsure if I can ever forgive and be truly happy, and asked if she could live with that, or should divorce be discussed. She said she will never seek divorce, but understands it is my option. She is trying very hard. Doing the right things.


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## sammy3

No offense to any of the poster above, but what I cant seem to understand is how often the D word is thrown out there. Not only is it expensive, it's emotional! To stay together, and go through all that a D carries, isnt it just better to first learn to "uncouple," start living apart, see if this is what one really wants first ?? Especially in long term marriages as so much is invested through out the years. 

~ sammy

Ps not trying to hijack


----------



## warlock07

The details are always minimized. The always used condom, the sex was bad, never in our house/martial bed etc etc . Right now she has no incentive to give you any detail of the affair that will make the current situation worse. Her confession came in a off-guard moment. She will not make the same mistake again.


I've been seeing too many "confessed after x number of years posts" lately...Somehow the number of years between the event and the confession should make the dealbreaker into a minor hitch.. How selfish!!

Have you considered separation ?


----------



## Headspin

Christ, the many and varied tentacles of adultery 

I've had enough sh!t with a serial cheat and people ask how I deal with that but this is something else.

I take my hat off to you forest and sympathize 

Nothing worse than deep down 'knowing' all the time and then you are proved right, whilst they just sat there and let you feel that, from choice, from weakness, from cowardice.

The biggest problem I personally had / have in my former marriage is the re writing of it all - having to replace how it was and it was often brilliant with the truth that it was very much an act from her but then from you too as you get drawn into the keeping it all going, to save face, for fear or realizing the truth you believe it all to be

I sometimes get more angry now than when in the middle of it all back then :scratchhead:

For me my opinion it will always be the cheat who cheated not the ex who used to cheat but now is 'okay'

Fk that


----------



## johnAdams

Forest said:


> I told my wife the other day that I am unsure if I can ever forgive and be truly happy, and asked if she could live with that, or should divorce be discussed. She said she will never seek divorce, but understands it is my option. She is trying very hard. Doing the right things.


Forest, unfortunately, there are no quick fixes. It sounds like you love your wife and that your marriage is worth saving. 

It sound like she does realize the enormity of her actions. She knows by her comments above that you have the choice. If you divorce, she knows it is due to her actions. She is trying very hard. The both of you are in marriage counseling. From what I am reading you will make it.

The bad thing about keeping an affair quite for years is the eventual ramifications that may and did come out in your case. Sometimes you wonder if it had just been kept quite it would not have effected your life and she could have taken her guilt with her to her grave. 

You may not ever fully recover, but you can have a very good life. Unfortunately an affair will always be part of your life. Even though it will always be a significant part of your life it does not have to define who you or wife are individually or as a couple. 

I am pulling for your reconciliation and recovery. Best of luck to you.


----------



## ConanHub

sammy3 said:


> No offense to any of the poster above, but what I cant seem to understand is how often the D word is thrown out there. Not only is it expensive, it's emotional! To stay together, and go through all that a D carries, isnt it just better to first learn to "uncouple," start living apart, see if this is what one really wants first ?? Especially in long term marriages as so much is invested through out the years.
> 
> ~ sammy
> 
> Ps not trying to hijack


What they are talking about is consequences. A cheater needs to have repercussions for their behavior. A BS needs to see a WS going through some sort of consequences for the betrayal. Part of remorse.

The WW in this story had none. She got to defile her family, get banged by a true scumbag, and then come share the leftovers with her family. The child would get a mommy touching, kissing, hugging m preparing food, that had just been slimed and groped by a scumbag and a mommy whose heart was certainly not fully directed at her child. Her child became less important than the demands of her crotch for a while and that's the truth.

Her husband got whatever this sleaze left over as well but he got the added bonus of still honoring her as a wife and getting her bursts of anger because while she was busily letting her POS bang her, her betraying heart was finding fault with her faithful husband.

After a year of being such a "prize" wife and mother, she covered it all up, got another job and paid for NOTHING!
Her H paid. 

The advice to D and DNA test or whatever, is for the WW to have to feel some fallout from their actions.

Right now, she still has it pretty damn good. She sees her husbands pain and anger and has to deal with that disturbance, but that is all.

She should have to go through with some form of repercussions. 
The worst thing is rug sweeping. It never deals with the outrageous wound dealt to the betrayed. At the very least she should have to bring this in the open to some of their close family or friends (Mature people to be sure).

Right now she has pretty much had a cake eating life.


----------



## syhoybenden

Forest said:


> To specifically answer a few questions that have popped up:
> 
> There is no need for DNA testing, of that I'm sure, it is obvious; you'll just have to trust me.
> 
> I have been heavy into details, and she swears to me there were always condoms, it was never in our house or bed. I have the other details, just not really into sharing them. It has helped me cope and relieved some worries.
> 
> Sex life after the "reconcile" has been good, no complaints. No cold spells. No more children. Rather not get into the specifics on age and menopause.
> 
> I've also lambasted her over the 20 years of secrecy, and told her the same things put forward here: our marriage was sort of a sham, she convinced herself I knew to ease pain, etc. I have not been easy on her, to say the least.
> 
> Some of the strongest things I've expressed is how disgusting and nasty I feel her actions were. Sleeping with two men during the affair period, being seduced, short changing her family. The POS was also several years older, and she was just mid 20s, which I've also called disgusting. Now, however, POS is all terrified and begging that he is too old now, I'd whip him too bad. I told him he should have thought about that before.
> 
> For Manicore: I appreciate your thought-out and researched post. Very enlightening, and tells me what I kind of realize inside. Good info
> 
> For WhiteRaven, Soyhoy, RWB, and especially Rottdad: you guys are right on the money. Somehow, knowing others are mad on my behalf feels good. I've told her several times how I fell the last 20 years were somewhat of a sham, and the marriage since built on sand. Infuriating. I've also told her I considered the marriage over once the affair started. For awhile I took off my ring.
> 
> Our M/C though, has been good, wise, patient. She is trying to prod me to accept what I already know. This happened, and I can either walk away or stay. If I stay, I will only be happy if I try to overcome the anger and move on. Easier said than done.
> 
> I told my wife the other day that I am unsure if I can ever forgive and be truly happy, and asked if she could live with that, or should divorce be discussed. She said she will never seek divorce, but understands it is my option. She is trying very hard. Doing the right things.


Sorry, but here's an old joke for you ...

How do you know when a cheater's lying? Their lips are moving.


----------



## sammy3

ConanHub said:


> What they are talking about is consequences. A cheater needs to have repercussions for their behavior. A BS needs to see a WS going through some sort of consequences for the betrayal. Part of remorse.
> 
> The WW in this story had none. She got to defile her family, get banged by a true scumbag, and then come share the leftovers with her family. The child would get a mommy touching, kissing, hugging m preparing food, that had just been slimed and groped by a scumbag and a mommy whose heart was certainly not fully directed at her child. Her child became less important than the demands of her crotch for a while and that's the truth.
> 
> Her husband got whatever this sleaze left over as well but he got the added bonus of still honoring her as a wife and getting her bursts of anger because while she was busily letting her POS bang her, her betraying heart was finding fault with her faithful husband.
> 
> After a year of being such a "prize" wife and mother, she covered it all up, got another job and paid for NOTHING!
> Her H paid.
> 
> The advice to D and DNA test or whatever, is for the WW to have to feel some fallout from their actions.
> 
> Right now, she still has it pretty damn good. She sees her husbands pain and anger and has to deal with that disturbance, but that is all.
> 
> She should have to go through with some form of repercussions.
> The worst thing is rug sweeping. It never deals with the outrageous wound dealt to the betrayed. At the very least she should have to bring this in the open to some of their close family or friends (Mature people to be sure).
> 
> Right now she has pretty much had a cake eating life.



Oh I cant agree with you more !! That isnt what I cant wrap my head around, it's the staying together, living together after going thur a D, that makes no sense to me. I guess for me, when one is at that point its the end of the line. 

But , I totally, totally agree with you! 


~ sammy


ps, hence, I wrote, hijacking, off subject...


----------



## ConanHub

sammy3 said:


> Oh I cant agree with you more !! That isnt what I cant wrap my head around, it's the staying together, living together after going thur a D, that makes no sense to me. I guess for me, when one is at that point its the end of the line.
> 
> But , I totally, totally agree with you!
> 
> 
> ~ sammy


Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification and your point of view. I would have to deal with it the same as you but OP might need something different. He does need something more than he has received so far, IMHO.


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## lifeistooshort

I think every WS struggling with whether to tell needs to read threads like this, because in my view this is one of the worst possible scenarios. He didn't get to make his own decisions based on truth before he built a life with her, and as has been pointed out he's now going to get the well it's been 20 years so get over it attitude. I honestly don't know how one moves forward from this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest

Just for the record, a lot of the comments about the injustice of the situation, cake eating, disparate punishments, etc have been things I've exploded at my wife over for the last 4 months.

She either gets it now, or has heard it enough to understand the way I feel. "Disgusting" "Cruel", "Horrible", "lying" are often tossed into my rampages. That, and my inability to get the naked bodies groping, humping, and various other images out of my head. Will haunt me for life. Great stuff.


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## ConanHub

Forest said:


> Just for the record, a lot of the comments about the injustice of the situation, cake eating, disparate punishments, etc have been things I've exploded at my wife over for the last 4 months.
> 
> She either gets it now, or has heard it enough to understand the way I feel. "Disgusting" "Cruel", "Horrible", "lying" are often tossed into my rampages. That, and my inability to get the naked bodies groping, humping, and various other images out of my head. Will haunt me for life. Great stuff.


Feel your pain man. Sure sorry. I still haven't seen outside of her discomfort from you, what cost has come her way.


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## WhiteRaven

Mind movies are something you can't run from Forrest.


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## badkarma2013

As has been stated before ...You are now a member of a club no one ever wants to join...

I have posted before and have been chastised for my anger toward the WS in general and the ( in my view ) the accepting attitude of many members here....... I will try to keep a more even tone today.

I do not think any BS here EVER views their Marriage, their WS, i would go as far as to say their Life the same .

My WW had an A with her Boss..as i have said i knew in my gut something was amiss...But could not or would not see the Dozens of red flags before me. 

To Sum it up..I found out details ( through investigation and telling his BW) at the second these details came to light i knew i could not ever forgive much less forget what had occured..Though there are many here who have R ... However I was not going to spend the rest of my life wondering how much of my Marriage was indeed a Lie...

If you stay She must show you Remorse and openness with EVERYTHING you need or require to heal...Can this be done and marriages be saved...YES ...I just could not take the things i found out and was unwilling to continue in (my opinion) a lie.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

When a BS is told by the WS about their affair(s) during, or soon after it/they ended, there's a lot to deal with. By both parties.

When time has gone by and the BS finds out it seems to me to be worse for the BS. The more time, the worse it is for them.

20 years though. I can't begin to imagine what you're going through. You start to second guess everything you thought you had in your marriage. Every time you two were apart overnight, you wonder about. Anything that she has done over the years that gave you that "funny feeling" is now suspect.

Some here have suggested that you divorce and try to start a new. Make here earn you back. It's good advice, but is it for you?...

There's no clear answer right now. You are only 4 month out from DDay. You'll have to give this a lot of thought.

In another month, or few, if you still feel like this, or worse. I'd suggest separating for a while. The fact that she's hid this from you and you had suspicions about it at the time are going to make dealing with it VERY hard.

Maybe tell her that you are and will deal with it the best you can. That if you can try to work through it(and with A LOT of her help). But if in 6 months, or even years down the line, you want to D, then you expect here to honor you decision. Tell her that it would be the least she could do for you.

I have to tell you that the first thing I(and many others, I'm sure) thought when she confessed the affair - That there might have been more, or more to it.

Have you given any thought to mentioning a polygragh test?. It may go a long in you being able to forgive her. To know with more certainty what you are forgiving.

I only ask this because she said it was a year long affair and they ALWAYS used condoms. In such a long relationship, it's it's VERY uncommon to use, or continue to use condoms. So, if she did lie about the condoms(telling herself it was only you spare you more pain and humiliation), she may have left out other things to soften the blow.

Just the WS's response to being asked about taking a poly can be telling. I've seen some here that said that their WS said yes, with out any hesitation. A few actually starting looking for one near them. The majority how ever get that distant look and say nothing right away. Cataloging the events in the memories. Others just snap back at the BS and say somethings like they are not criminals and won't take one.

Have you mention the posability of a poly to her?


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## jnj express

Hey Forest---let me tell you this

Get this settled one way or the other, and be satisfied with your decision----BEFORE YOU BOTH RETIRE------once retired you are together 24/7/365, and you much of that time, you are alone, and you have lots of time to reflect and think

It can be very tuff on you during your later years if she is with you and she is gonna trigger you----cuz you better believe THAT WILL HAPPEN----so you need to figure this out well before you head into your golden years

As to her lover---forget him---he is not worth you going to jail, and defending a lawsuit, if you get physical with him


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## larry.gray

Forest said:


> There is no need for DNA testing, of that I'm sure, it is obvious; you'll just have to trust me.


Good that you know. I've got strong genetics too.

The DNA test is for the shock value to her. It is to point out that *NOTHING* she has ever said can be trusted.



Forest said:


> I have been heavy into details, and she swears to me there were always condoms, it was never in our house or bed.


See above. Given that she lied before, and you didn't pick up on it, why believe that now?



Forest said:


> I have the other details, just not really into sharing them. It has helped me cope and relieved some worries.
> 
> Sex life after the "reconcile" has been good, no complaints. No cold spells. No more children. Rather not get into the specifics on age and menopause.


I most definitely understand the not sharing part. In some ways the specifics are helpful in regards to advice. But a lot of the time, the digging people make is just voyeuristic entertainment.

One frequent complaint betrayed husbands have is that their wife 'let herself go wild' with the OM. But even after the affair they still won't let themselves go with their husband.


----------



## Forest

Just a quick note about the condoms. I completely believe it, as we used them too at that time. Pill issues, etc. She would never let me get near her without one. Very, very strict about it, as she did not want another pregnancy.

Not very keen on the poly idea. I feel I know her pretty well, and between our talks and the marriage therapy, I believe her, and am satisfied with her answers. She's given a lot of answers to things that surprised me, because it would have been so easy to give a convincing lie. I really am satisfied she's telling the truth.

After all the bad mouthing, I should mention some of the reasons why I feel like staying. For many years we have been a great team. We are united in many areas lots of couples aren't. Both good with money, both dislike parties and socializing (most of the time), believe in taking care of and minding our own business, like our secluded lifestyle, and will protect and defend the other. Everybody thinks we are the most relaxed and easy going couple they know.

Unfortunately, there was about a year two decades ago that this lapsed, and now this....

Needless to say it has been intense, mostly from me toward her.


----------



## MovingAhead

I was talking to the girl I am currently dating. We were discussing something about kids schedules and something about my EX came up. 

I told her that I don't ever think about my marriage or past with my EX. I don't remember anything because I blocked it all out. I purposefully did that because I honestly don't know how much of my marriage was a lie. I will never know so I don't waste time on it. I focus on the present. I let the past go.

R is harder than D. I don't know how it feels to R. I was not given that chance. Brother the decision is yours. Good luck to you.


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## johnAdams

Forest said:


> After all the bad mouthing, I should mention some of the reasons why I feel like staying. For many years we have been a great team. We are united in many areas lots of couples aren't. Both good with money, both dislike parties and socializing (most of the time), believe in taking care of and minding our own business, like our secluded lifestyle, and will protect and defend the other. Everybody thinks we are the most relaxed and easy going couple they know.


You love her, she loves you. You just went through the most shocking thing a married person can go through. Even as bad as it hurts, you have to look at your life. What would it prove to leave her? By punishing her you are also punishing yourself. There is a lot to work through, but as you said, you are a great team. Your anger will subside, you will have depression, mind movies, triggers and all the other Hell that comes from adultery. But in just reading where you are at, the good out weighs the bad.


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## warlock07

Forest, how come you never brought it up until now ? Why did you never ask her about it ? Any reason in particular ?


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## kenmoore14217

Great line from Seinfeld: Jerry, just remember. It's not a lie... if you believe it...

maybe she believes it?


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## Forest

warlock07 said:


> Forest, how come you never brought it up until now ? Why did you never ask her about it ? Any reason in particular ?


I brought it up a couple times back 20 years ago. Both times I got strong denials. To the point I was leery to ask again. Plus, we kind of went thru a "lets not talk about those days" period, and I was able to move on.

Then recently these dreams about my suspicion back then popped up, and I began to really examine things with the benefit of age, wisdom, and different life perspective.


----------



## Forest

kenmoore14217 said:


> Great line from Seinfeld: Jerry, just remember. It's not a lie... if you believe it...
> 
> maybe she believes it?


You know, she's kinda like that. She had convinced herself 20 years ago that I know longer cared, and was probably cheating myself. So she does this.

What a crap dish! She is convinced of something that is untrue, so I get to pay for it.


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## ConanHub

Aside from the year of cheating, sitting on this happily for twenty years until Forest very firmly confronted her, is the biggest issue. You were remorseful and confessed quickly. OPs wife screwed a jerk for a year and repeatedly lied when confronted about it and seemed perfectly happy to have her cake and eat it too.

I think there is a significant character flaw that she has never dealt with. You faced the music quickly, she never wanted to pay any price or face any consequences for stabbing her family in the back.


----------



## ConanHub

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I made no observation or judgement about the affair ....he said he gets to pay for what she did. He is correct...my point was...and so does she....


For twenty years she paid nothing. Now, she apparently just has to go to MC and look at her wounded H. That is something, I guess. BTW, this was the Guy I asked you for the book for. You probably already knew that. Maybe what helped you and Mr JA could help Forest as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theroad

Forest said:


> Just a quick note about the condoms. I completely believe it, as we used them too at that time. Pill issues, etc. She would never let me get near her without one. Very, very strict about it, as she did not want another pregnancy.
> 
> Not very keen on the poly idea. I feel I know her pretty well, and between our talks and the marriage therapy, I believe her, and am satisfied with her answers. She's given a lot of answers to things that surprised me, because it would have been so easy to give a convincing lie. I really am satisfied she's telling the truth.
> 
> After all the bad mouthing, I should mention some of the reasons why I feel like staying. For many years we have been a great team. We are united in many areas lots of couples aren't. Both good with money, both dislike parties and socializing (most of the time), believe in taking care of and minding our own business, like our secluded lifestyle, and will protect and defend the other. Everybody thinks we are the most relaxed and easy going couple they know.
> 
> Unfortunately, there was about a year two decades ago that this lapsed, and now this....
> 
> Needless to say it has been intense, mostly from me toward her.


Eleven posts shows that you do not know that it appears that many WW let the OM ride bareback.

So I suggest a DNA test. And for getting the whole truth I would suggest that you schedule a polygraph test. Many a WW all of a sudden remember more truth just before the day of the test or on the car ride to the test.


----------



## thummper

Forest, I'm just curious. You say this happened 20 years ago, then she broke it off and decided to stay with you. I have a few questions to ponder: :scratchhead: What about these last 20 years? Has she been a good wife to you during that time? Has it been a loving and fulfilling relationship? Sex between you good? Since you're discovering the truth, has she been at all remorseful, willing to do whatever it takes to keep your marriage going? Could you live the rest of your life without this woman by your side? Good questions to consider. If you've had a good run together, why not let it go, at least as much as you are able? I know the mind movies are brutal, but it is possible to forgive her and keep her as your wife? Yes, she broke her vows, but I think she realized what a fine husband she had in you and how much she really did love you and wanted to stay with you, not the OM. She seems to have devoted herself into living a good marriage with you. Isn't that worth considering?


----------



## ConanHub

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes...I figured out this was the guy you wanted to help....and I do hope the book helps forest and his wife.
> 
> And Conan...you have no idea what she did or did not pay...just because she lived with it In Silence does not mean she did not suffer from her decision to cheat or to remain silent.
> That is pure speculation on your part.


I knew you would respond that way and I disagree. She crapped on her marriage and let her husband think the smell was for him to clean up. She not only cheated for a year but allowed Forest to believe the problems arising from her skanky behavior were his. She treated him with anger while busily banging OM and when Forest started to really work on the marriage(believing the problems were at least half his) she might have ended the affair, but allowed Forest to work his tail off fixing problems she made.

She reaped the rewards of his hard dedication for twenty years all the while knowing he was eating the sh!t she had dumped on their family. 

That is a level of selfishness that never came to an end. She has had twenty years to come clean, she was initially confronted and denied it more than once, then she happily reaped the rewards of betraying and deceiving her husband for twenty years.

You have a tendency to count what someone is feeling as reality and I only count actions. I have never believed feelings amounted to a hill of beans. Love and hate are actions in my book. 

According to her actions, Forests wife has loved herself more than anyone else.


----------



## ConanHub

I am not advocating for Forest to divorce, however, I believe the issues I have brought up are real and need addressed for Forest to get some healing. His wife needs to own her sh!t.


----------



## Forest

ConanHub said:


> Aside from the year of cheating, sitting on this happily for twenty years until Forest very firmly confronted her, is the biggest issue. You were remorseful and confessed quickly. OPs wife screwed a jerk for a year and repeatedly lied when confronted about it and seemed perfectly happy to have her cake and eat it too.
> 
> I think there is a significant character flaw that she has never dealt with. You faced the music quickly, she never wanted to pay any price or face any consequences for stabbing her family in the back.


Since I know her as better as completely as is possible, here is my amateur headshrink opinion.

1. She does have a "character flaw". She feels she must win at all costs. When wronged she responds with force, with any means at her disposal. She doesn't think of costs/consequences, then later will be remorseful and say "don't let me get away with that". Easier said than done.

2. She has a tremendous desire for my attention. When deprived of it, she will go into a fury. Then its back to #1 above.

3. She has more of a male sense of anger and lying than female. Feels that what someone doesn't know won't hurt them.

Again with the condoms. I cannot be any more certain about anything in this, and won't explore it further. She was pathological about condoms in those days, and I have no questions. A dna test would be folly it so obvious.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> I ponder whether divorce is the only way I could regain my honor and self respect. Do I owe it to future betrayed men not tolerate this?



*Your honor and self respect does not depend on how your wife chooses to act.* She is a free will person and you could do nothing to stop her. Her adultery is all on her. 


It is understandable that you feel your honor and self respect has taken a hit because it probably has. *My advice to you is for you to become an even better man that you are right now by improving in your emotions, mind, and spirit*. Because of what you have written so far I will try to encourage you to R. However, I will also encourage you to become as self sufficient as you can. That does not mean that you do not love and care for your wife. It does mean that you cannot put your honor and self respect in the hands of your wife or anyone else.

You owe nothing to future betrayed men





*



I guess I want to know if men can get over this horrible affliction of an unfaithful wife?

Click to expand...

*
This question has been answered by Philat and he has credibility with finding out about adultery 20 years later. I just what to add to Philat by making a few statements. * My experience proves that you can get over it to a high degree but not 100%. I have no anger, hate, or any destructive thoughts or action against my wife and that left sometime in the first year.* 

What was permanently killed was the degree of adoration that I had for my wife. I still adore her but not as much. I will never have 100% trusts in her but then I do not have 100% trusts in anyone. I will tell you that I have a 90% trust in my wife and that is enough for a good life. Finally, I no longer feel that she is a real strong person. In short my idealism about her is gone. *I have learned to realize that humans are human and cannot match up to pure 100% unconditional love and strength. *


On the other hand, my wife is the best that I am going to get in this life. She matches up with me just like you described your wife matches up with you. *She really is a good person that has some weaknesses, who doesn’t?* Finally, my wife and I have been together since we were teenagers, we have been through the valleys and the mountain tops and we have three children together. That is some real strong bonding glue. I have no allusions that some pretty blond, red head or any other color woman is going top be such a huge part of my life as my wife. If I was in my twenties or thirties without children then maybe I could do better but I doubt it.


Mr. John Adams has responded to you and I admire John as he has over 30 years of SUCCESSFUL Recovery! Nothing says it to me as strongly as a 30 year veteran that is still standing and having a good life with his wife. John summed it up quite well when he said

*



By John Adams
You may not ever fully recover, but you can have a very good life

Click to expand...

*

John’s wife, Mrs. John Adams has given you great advice also. She said:


*



By punishing her you are also punishing yourself. 
the good out weighs the bad.
You hold her future in your hands...

Click to expand...

*
Of all the WS on this forum I have not read any that are more dedicated to their husband as Mrs. John Adams is to her husband. Furthermore, she has one of the best attitudes of any WS on this forum. The fact that she and her husband have a better marriage than many couples that have never expensed infidelity says volumes to me!


I just want to add my own statement about what Mrs. John Adams has stated.

*
Forest, stop putting your wife down in any way, nada, nothing, zilch!*

In fact do not bring up the affair to your wife unless it is going to help you both recover or if your wife needs to talk about it and preferably with your counselor. I assume your counselor is very good at helping with R. You have several outlets for you to talk about your affair if you need to so use them but be wise about talking with your wife.



If you have to vent your anger then do it here or somewhere else but not at your wife. I say this because that was the advice that I was given and now I know after 20+ years that advice was so very valuable. *You do not want to be the person that puts another dagger into your wife’s heart that will last a lifetime do you? You are one of the fortunate ones and your marriage is worth saving according to what you have written*.


I know that you have a lot of explosive emotions but you have vented them on your wife for 4 months so STOP NOW!!! Your wife will become a very tender soul that warms your heart in the future so do not be someone that twists the dagger that is already in her heart. 


Build your self up more and you will be much better in time but do not expect to get a lot better in 4 months. *There is a LOT of hope in your case IMO!!*


----------



## sidney2718

Forest:

You have a difficult road to travel. Sadly, all we can do is shout advice, some of which is good, some not so much. It isn't always easy to tell the difference.

Some who post here have had horrible experiences in marriage. Their pain, which is real, comes through in their postings. Others have strong views about crossing lines and kicking spouses to the curb. That comes through in their postings as well.

You've already had one bit of good advice, at least in my opinion. You've just learned of the affair. Your wife has known for 20 years. She's compartmentalized it, tucked it away in a corner, and until now has probably not even thought about it for years. You, on the other hand, are face to face with newly discovered infidelity. It might help if you could point out this difference to her.

The decision on what to do is really yours and yours alone. Don't be too quick to make up your mind because you will have to live with the consequences probably for more than 20 years. The next few months will be a roller-coaster ride.

While this is going on folks will be shouting advice. Mine is to tell you wife that you have to let the pain out and that may well mean that you will be hard to be around for a while. If you don't let it out, it will fester.

Letting it out depends how you feel. You may withdraw, you may shout, you may do all sorts of strange things. But hang in there, we really are here for you.


----------



## larry.gray

theroad said:


> Eleven posts shows that you do not know that it appears that many WW let the OM ride bareback.
> 
> So I suggest a DNA test. And for getting the whole truth I would suggest that you schedule a polygraph test. Many a WW all of a sudden remember more truth just before the day of the test or on the car ride to the test.


Why are you always yelling?


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## warlock07

Forest said:


> Since I know her as better as completely as is possible, here is my amateur headshrink opinion.
> 
> 1. She does have a "character flaw". She feels she must win at all costs. When wronged she responds with force, with any means at her disposal. She doesn't think of costs/consequences, then later will be remorseful and say "don't let me get away with that". Easier said than done.
> 
> 2. She has a tremendous desire for my attention. When deprived of it, she will go into a fury. Then its back to #1 above.
> 
> 3. She has more of a male sense of anger and lying than female. Feels that what someone doesn't know won't hurt them.
> 
> Again with the condoms. I cannot be any more certain about anything in this, and won't explore it further. She was pathological about condoms in those days, and I have no questions. A dna test would be folly it so obvious.



Are you saying #2 was the reason for her affair ? More often than not, it ends up being that the affair was the actual reason the fights start up in the first place. The cheating spouse subconsciously starts fights out of guilt and to make the betrayed one the bad person


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## larry.gray

Manticore listed off several other members in a similar situation to you.

There is one more active right now that discovered the affair much later:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/69283-when-you-find-out-details-pa.html


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## 86857

OP, 4 months is only a blink in this scenario. Maybe ride the storm for now. It's a big decision. 

It was 20 years ago so you may feel that it taints or invalidates the past 20 years. A normal reaction. On the other hand what if the A had been a year ago? That would mean the 'now'. 

From what you are saying she has been a great wife, loved you and did not have another EA/PA. 

If so, then if it had to happen, maybe it's better that it happened back then. It doesn't sound as if OM was on her mind after it ended. Did she end it? 

Close your eyes and imagine if she's gone from your life. You will see her fairly often because of the kids. They'll graduate, have their own kids etc. You'll grow old separately. You will be reminded when you see her but it will hurt less as time goes by. If you re-partner and she does too, then it becomes easier. She may re-partner first, or you may or neither of you may. Leaving is a lot more unpredictable. 

Close your eyes again and imagine if you stay. You will have to look at her every day and be reminded of it. In time the days you are reminded of it will become less but it will never leave completely. But she'll be there, you'll grow old together and watch your kids grow up. I would say categorically that she will never have an A again and you don't sound like a guy who ever would. Much more predictable. 

I'm not saying go for the predictable. Just trying to get you to picture the consequences of what you decide.

I think how she has treated you in the past 20 years and whether you feel she truly loved you all that time and how she is reacting right now will help you choose. 



> 1. She does have a "character flaw". She feels she must win at all costs. When wronged she responds with force, with any means at her disposal. She doesn't think of costs/consequences, then later will be remorseful and say "don't let me get away with that". Easier said than done.
> 
> 2. She has a tremendous desire for my attention. When deprived of it, she will go into a fury. Then its back to #1 above.
> 
> 3. She has more of a male sense of anger and lying than female. Feels that what someone doesn't know won't hurt them.


What you say above alarmed me at first. 
1. I'm presuming she's a feisty gal as opposed to a Princess who needs to always have her own way and gets abusive in her fury.

2. Not such a bad thing that she has a tremendous desire for your attention. 

3. She must change her attitude to lying IMMEDIATELY and what she is telling you now about the A must be the 100% truth. Also remind her that non-disclosure is lying. This is exactly what her attitude was back then, what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you.


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## convert

The DNA test is more to show her how much this has shaken your belief in this marriage. It would have like a shock affect to her, or it should. It should help her see how much pain you are in.
That you can not be sure of anything for the past 20 years. The past 20 years has been a lie.


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## Rottdad42

You know after 15 years of being a LEO, I thought I have witnessed some of the most horrific things that can happen to human beings. Many, many pursuits, fights with people on PCP which is like wrestling a sweaty pig btw. I think the worst was having to use my motorcycle jacket, to tamp out two kids, who were set on fire, by a distraught father. That memory is always with me. To this day infidelity is at the top of my list, of the no way in h*** I am staying with you. I guess for me, the turmoil that I would deal is the fact that someone else has slept with my life partner. There is a reason why people get married is to not do those things. It's to have something special. I don't use divorce in a quick manner, its ugly and will reduce your soul to rubble. The question is why? Why did she do this. To reconcile, she must answer all questions, period. No exceptions. I would never tell someone, just divorce her. It's just not that simple, especially when kids are involved. I'm sorry but she needs to feel your pain. 20 years, how she was able go on living and not look like something was killing her on the inside is beyond comprehension. I guess after all these years of dealing with people, it doesn't surprise me what we as human beings do to one another. I hope you get what you need to make it through this mess.


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## Forest

Very good observations **********. That is the kind of scenario that I've been running thru my head, that make me feel divorce is not what I want. To be honest, the financial impact is also a huge consideration, even if that sounds shallow.

To answer Warlock's question. Yes, the attention factor was precisely what led to the affair. She would lose her temper over something, and snap at me. Then, arguments would follow, and her fury would unleash.
In time, I just didn't want to fight anymore, and would withdraw, hoping she'd realize her temper was killing me and soften up some. Of course, she took this the other way, and to the extreme. When she could find attention elsewhere she convinced herself I didn't care, and had this damned affair. (I'm seething again typing this)

So, it seems many people here think the "cheater, cheater" image will dull over time. I'm also a bad grudge holder, though. Will be pretty damn hard to ever minimize the realization that my wife screwed another man (many times) and feel normal again. 

Why do people do this? It is BS and cruel. As I've told her, if it was that bad, drag me to counseling, get some yourself, file for divorce. Have some dignity and honor.


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## warlock07

> Yes, the attention factor was precisely what led to the affair


Usually it is the other way around. The cheating spouse finds something trivial to get angry about to justify her actions...they need to justify the affair in their mind.

This bring up another question. All the answers that you have about her affair are the one that she told you. Do you see the problem here ? I hope you did read about trickle truth. More often tha not, there is always more to the affair than they confessed. How do you think she will react to you calling the OM to verify some of the details of the affair ?

A complete confession at first go is almost an impossibility. Every thread we have here, there is always the BS pushing the WS for more once the initial confession was made. There is always more.

Do you have any deal breakers at this point ?


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## Forest

Yep, I know what you mean, and have read about the trickle truth. I feel she's telling the truth mostly by gut instinct, and that she's been consistent throughout. Also, we discussed this in counseling, and I brought up the issue that I was afraid I'd later find out something different. We all then talked at length on the issue, and I'm as convinced as I can be that she's truthful.

When I confronted her, she was never defensive. She was ready to confess and unburden herself.

The M/C has told me to quit "picking at scabs" now, and try to let things heal. Very hard to do, but I believe she knows her stuff, and am trying to follow the advice if possible. I still get mad, but instead of blowing up I just shut up, then tell the wife I'm having anger issues at the moment.

Deal breakers? Hard to say. Most things like that I've grilled her about and feel like they didn't happen. Of course, you could counter that she anticipated this, and altered the story. I have no way to be sure, but my instincts. I just not going to do the polygraph thing. Too sensational for me. Just wouldn't do it.
So, I doubt much more will come to light with the "picking scabs" moratorium and all.


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## convert

"Picking at scabs" your M/C needs to realize it has been 20 years ago for the your wife but you just got the truth 4 months ago, you probably do not have scabs yet.


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## Nucking Futs

Forest said:


> Yep, I know what you mean, and have read about the trickle truth. *I feel she's telling the truth mostly by gut instinct*, and that she's been consistent throughout. Also, we discussed this in counseling, and I brought up the issue that I was afraid I'd later find out something different. We all then talked at length on the issue, and I'm as convinced as I can be that she's truthful.
> 
> When I confronted her, she was never defensive. She was ready to confess and unburden herself.
> 
> The M/C has told me to quit "picking at scabs" now, and try to let things heal. Very hard to do, but I believe she knows her stuff, and am trying to follow the advice if possible. I still get mad, but instead of blowing up I just shut up, then tell the wife I'm having anger issues at the moment.
> 
> Deal breakers? Hard to say. Most things like that I've grilled her about and feel like they didn't happen. Of course, you could counter that she anticipated this, and altered the story. *I have no way to be sure, but my instincts.* I just not going to do the polygraph thing. Too sensational for me. Just wouldn't do it.
> So, I doubt much more will come to light with the "picking scabs" moratorium and all.


These are the same instincts that didn't detect her lying to you for 20 years and you still trust them? I think you're afraid to push this because you're afraid you'll find out that she's still lying to you. That's rug sweeping and it _will_ come back to bite you in the butt in the future.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Will I forever think of her as "my wife that cheated"?*



convert said:


> "Picking at scabs" your M/C needs to realize it has been 20 years ago for the your wife but you just got the truth 4 months ago, you probably do not have scabs yet.


This is something akin to "just get over it" and something a counselor should just never say.


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## Forest

Nucking Futs said:


> These are the same instincts that didn't detect her lying to you for 20 years and you still trust them? I think you're afraid to push this because you're afraid you'll find out that she's still lying to you. That's rug sweeping and it _will_ come back to bite you in the butt in the future.


Actually, my instincts detected this 20 years ago correctly. She denied it, and I got tired of fighting.

Then, we had a type of "starting over" moment, and I elected to leave the past behind. Just recently it invaded my head again, my instincts told me I would be able to get the truth now.


----------



## 86857

Forest said:


> Very good observations @86857. That is the kind of scenario that I've been running thru my head, that make me feel divorce is not what I want. To be honest, the financial impact is also a huge consideration, even if that sounds shallow.


It's not shallow at all Forest. I'm sure you worked hard all those years to make your family financially secure and you weren't bargaining on divorce in the future.



> To answer Warlock's question. Yes, the attention factor was precisely what led to the affair. She would lose her temper over something, and snap at me. Then, arguments would follow, and her fury would unleash.
> In time, I just didn't want to fight anymore, and would withdraw, hoping she'd realize her temper was killing me and soften up some. Of course, she took this the other way, and to the extreme. When she could find attention elsewhere she convinced herself I didn't care, and had this damned affair. (I'm seething again typing this)


How did you two overcome the temper thing? Did she learn to control it and how has it been these past 20 years? I hope she did because it sounds pretty unpleasant to say the least.



> So, it seems many people here think the "cheater, cheater" image will dull over time. I'm also a bad grudge holder, though. Will be pretty damn hard to ever minimize the realization that my wife screwed another man (many times) and feel normal again.


Forest, I hate to say this but I actually think that in the long run R is harder than D and it takes a long time. You have articulated very well exactly why above. Fewer demons to deal with IMO. In terms of grudge holding, being betrayed has to be the hardest thing not to hold a grudge about so you are not alone there!


> Why do people do this? It is BS and cruel. As I've told her, if it was that bad, drag me to counseling, get some yourself, file for divorce. Have some dignity and honor.


Exactly - all BS say the same as what you are saying on here. It's hell - no way around that. And WS can never realise what it's like unless it's done to them of course.

Like I said 4 months out is very early so take your time. Go to a lawyer and check out what the financial implications would be. I'm not advocating divorce. It's just sensible and wise to know all your options.

It's tough Forest. I'm truly sorry and all BS understand your pain because we have all been there. It sucks!

Look after yourself because the stress gives our immune system a hit. Try and eat well and get proper sleep. Maybe get to a gym and workout some of that anger. It really does help especially when the endorphins kick in.


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## Forest

@86857- Where have you been all my life? (joking for levity)

You would be a great motivational coach. Glad you realize that finances cannot be ignored.

As for the temper thing, well....Its much better, but still causes some problems now and then. If it were not for that, things would have always been much better. I'm sure the affair wouldn't have happened, either. Anyway, the temper is managed fairly well these days. After "Dday" the temper was gone for about 2 months, and it helped immeasurably to get through the days. She was on 24 Saint mode then.

Also, I did get back to the gym routine to work off the anger. Also want to be at max strength if I ever see the POS. Very unlikely.


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## warlock07

How do you think she will react to you calling the OM to verify some of the details of the affair ?


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## Forest

warlock07 said:


> How do you think she will react to you calling the OM to verify some of the details of the affair ?


I contacted that POS one time, and it was to tell him to come meet me and see what comes natural. He was all ovaries for that idea, and will call the law, sue, and generally menstruate if I ever come near him. A sickening POS.

I have nothing to say to him, and never will. It we meet I have only one thing for him.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Forest said:


> Yep, I know what you mean, and have read about the trickle truth. I feel she's telling the truth mostly by gut instinct, and that she's been consistent throughout. Also, we discussed this in counseling, and I brought up the issue that I was afraid I'd later find out something different. We all then talked at length on the issue, and I'm as convinced as I can be that she's truthful.
> 
> When I confronted her, she was never defensive. She was ready to confess and unburden herself.
> 
> The M/C has told me to quit "picking at scabs" now, and try to let things heal. Very hard to do, but I believe she knows her stuff, and am trying to follow the advice if possible. I still get mad, but instead of blowing up I just shut up, then tell the wife I'm having anger issues at the moment.
> 
> Deal breakers? Hard to say. Most things like that I've grilled her about and feel like they didn't happen. Of course, you could counter that she anticipated this, and altered the story. I have no way to be sure, but my instincts. *I just not going to do the polygraph thing.* Too sensational for me. Just wouldn't do it.
> So, I doubt much more will come to light with the "picking scabs" moratorium and all.


Then you'll have to trust your "gut instinct". It boils down to what you can live with I guess.

Me, I'd have to know what I was trying to forgive and would use every means available to get the complete truth.

There's a very good chance that you don't know everything yet. But you already realize this. It's part of the reason you are here.


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## Acabado

Forest said:


> I contacted that POS one time, and it was to tell him to come meet me and see what comes natural. He was all ovaries for that idea, and will call the law, sue, and generally menstruate if I ever come near him. A sickening POS.
> 
> I have nothing to say to him, and never will. It we meet I have only one thing for him.


"Liking" it was not enough, i had to laugh at this.
:rofl:


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## RWB

forest, ur rugsweeping and u dont even know it. Affairs rarely if ever use protection, remember itsz a fantasy. and u think this long ago affair broke cleanly? she relasped back to her AP probably for years if not a new "friend". This truth u want need, has a time limit in R. It will haunt u forever if bury it 4 months in. Ur call, but clock is ticking, good luck regardless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CH

Forest I just read the entire post and I'm not sure the question was asked.

If you had known this 20 years ago would you have stayed with her?

I do wish you both could work it out but some people just can't forgive infidelity no matter how long ago it happened. And your counselor is correct, the only way to move ahead is to be able to forgive your wife, if you can't you'll only poison the marriage over time like a festering wound.


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## warlock07

Forest said:


> I contacted that POS one time, and it was to tell him to come meet me and see what comes natural. He was all ovaries for that idea, and will call the law, sue, and generally menstruate if I ever come near him. A sickening POS.
> 
> I have nothing to say to him, and never will. It we meet I have only one thing for him.



i wasn't asking that.. I am asking about your wife's reaction if you plan to talk to him


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## badmemory

You will always think of her as the wife that cheated because that's what she is. That will never change. How much you think about it and how well you are able to deal with it, may change in time - if she demonstrates remorse.

But you're right. It's a crummy deal whether you R or D.


----------



## Forest

warlock07 said:


> i wasn't asking that.. I am asking about your wife's reaction if you plan to talk to him


She wouldn't try to stop me. She was present when I called him before, and just said she thought it wouldn't help me but to go ahead.

Someone asked how I'd have reacted 20 years ago. That's even harder. Might have ended up in jail, for one thing. But, then I was probably also more in tune with not letting marriage fall apart, also. Based on my anger now, I think I'd have blown to bits, beat POS , and the marriage imploded. Tough, but fortunately moot question.

Why is everyone so into the condom question? I fully understand that affairs can be spontaneous, which would lead to that, but I don't have trouble believing her. I would have trouble believing she would do it without, though. She is controlling by nature, and was overly careful nature to avoid pregnancy. We used condoms for a year after my vasectomy, until I'd been test 3 times.


----------



## badmemory

Forest said:


> Why is everyone so into the condom question?


Simply because it's been our experience that most CS's lie about that; and that condoms are seldom used in affair sex.


----------



## JerryB

It's going to hurt, but it was 20 years ago. 
Except for the obvious betrayal part, shouldn't this stack up to "previous lovers" before you met? You don't obsess or visualize that, do you?
Meditate on all the positive things that have happened since then, and I believe you'll find the answer if your marriage is worth forgiving and continuing.

Once that decision is made, I'd get the right book and figure out how to forgive her so that you don't hold it against her. You need to be all in, or all out. It's only fair to you both. Then get back to loving each other. Similar to what others said...


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## sidney2718

JerryB said:


> It's going to hurt, but it was 20 years ago.
> Except for the obvious betrayal part, shouldn't this stack up to "previous lovers" before you met? You don't obsess or visualize that, do you?
> Meditate on all the positive things that have happened since then, and I believe you'll find the answer if your marriage is worth forgiving and continuing.
> 
> Once that decision is made, I'd get the right book and figure out how to forgive her so that you don't hold it against her. You need to be all in, or all out. It's only fair to you both. Then get back to loving each other. Similar to what others said...


I agree with Jerry. What's more, make your decision without regard to whether or not folks here and elsewhere would agree or not. It is your marriage and your life, not theirs.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

@86857 said:


> Like I said 4 months out is very early so take your time. Go to a lawyer and check out what the financial implications would be. I'm not advocating divorce. It's just sensible and wise to know all your options.


One complaint often seen, particularly in a situation like yours where the cheating was so long ago, is that the WS does not have to really pay for their sins, so to speak. Yes, they are sad, but they don't have the same stress and pressure that the BS does. Checking on options for divorce can give her a bit of stress. You don't have to threaten it, just note that you have not ruled it out.

Another thought was about her behavior the last 20 years. I suspect you are running through that time frame quite a bit, wondering what was real and what was not. Consider putting that on her. Tell her you wonder and when she protests, ask her to prove it. Make clear that in light of her past dishonesty, you are not sure why she should continue to get the benefit of the doubt.

None of this is to say that you should leave her. The old saw "Is your life better with her in it or out of it" seems to apply here. But part of driving the point home to her and getting her to help you work this problem will be showing that it is a serious issue and that the past 20 years are not automatically in her plus column.


----------



## Forest

Good grief, some of you folks are getting into my head now. No harm.

Just a bit ago had a good talk with the wife. No new ground, just re-asserted that I need reassurance from time to time, and wonder/question whether I've heard all the straight poop, with no alterations to save my feelings, or her image. It was wide-ranging, but the end result is that all my previous conclusions are intact, and I am as comfortable as I'll ever be that it is the truth. 

I feel that I know the truth regarding all that I've questioned. For some here, I'm putting the condom issue to rest. No sex without condoms. Nothing has been held back from me.

I suppose I will never get over this, never look at her the same again, but do not have the will or desire to banish her from my life. I have to acknowledge that since this horrible betrayal she has been faithful, devoted, and true to me. I'm not happy at the moment, but not disposed to cut her out of my life. We have more or a bond than that.

I've punished her harshly for the betrayal, and it will continue in some form for at least awhile longer, and she knows that. The stain is going to be around for the foreseeable future, even though it pains me. No way around it. I just hope someday it is not always in the forefront of my mind.

Infidelity, adultery, betrayal, etc is a special kind of awful tragedy. What a crying shame. Wish I could have read a story like this as a newlywed. Such a waste. And for what gain, really? Tragic.


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## DarkHoly

Leave it to a woman to lie point blank and then be incredulous later that you didn't know the truth.


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## larry.gray

Forest said:


> Why is everyone so into the condom question? I fully understand that affairs can be spontaneous, which would lead to that, but I don't have trouble believing her. I would have trouble believing she would do it without, though. She is controlling by nature, and was overly careful nature to avoid pregnancy. We used condoms for a year after my vasectomy, until I'd been test 3 times.


Do you know if the OM had a vas at the time?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by convert
> "Picking at scabs" your M/C needs to realize it has been 20 years ago for the your wife but you just got the truth 4 months ago, you probably do not have scabs yet.
> 
> By Bfree
> This is something akin to "just get over it" and something a counselor should just never say.


*I think your MC is right; “picking at scabs” is counter productive to you at this point.*

You have told us that you have “exploded at my wife over for the last 4 months, and the “temper thing” was one of the reason that the affair happened”

*Do you need to explode on your wife for more months?*


Here are a some of your quotes below:



> Hugely angry and bitter about this affair. Sometime I spew off into a rage, yelling at her.
> 
> 
> I've had her over the coals about "why did you lie if you thought I knew" several times.
> 
> I have been heavy into details
> 
> I have not been easy on her, to say the least.
> 
> 
> Just for the record, a lot of the comments about the injustice of the situation, cake eating, disparate punishments, etc have been things I've exploded at my wife over for the last 4 months.
> 
> 
> As for the temper thing, well....Its much better, but still causes some problems now and then. If it were not for that, things would have always been much better. I'm sure the affair wouldn't have happened, either
> 
> I've punished her harshly for the betrayal, and it will continue in some form for at least awhile longer, and she knows that


*
Forest, how much has your exploding and punishing your wife these last 4 months done to help you?* You may get some temporary relief but how long does it last and how much good or harm do you think your anger will do?



No one is blaming you for your exploding and punishing your wife in fact some on TAM will encourage you to keep putting her down. I maybe one of the few or maybe I am the only one that is *trying to get you to look at the future in addition to the now.*


Forest, you are in great pain, I get that. However, I am trying to get you to look at your future years down the road. You have indicated that you are going to R and I think that you and your wife are can make it. You have also said that your wife is doing everything she can to try and make up for her betrayal. I know it can never be made up but you have to make the best of it for you.


You have “been heavy into details” for the last 4 months and your wife has been honest. You do not need more details you have more details than you can handle right now to last for your lifetime. I know that it is very natural to want to dig dig and you think that getting more details is going to give you some great relief? *At this point getting more of those details will only give you nightmares from hell for the rest of your life and will not help you R.*


Your wife cheated and you know a lot about that. Now is the time for you to concentrate on all the steps to get yourself better. Do the things that do not trigger your anger and when the anger comes then get someone to vent to, and not your wife because it will turn into you putting her down and perhaps her fighting back. Stop the anger as soon as you can; this will take you forcing yourself to do that.


You need to listen to your MC, if you are convinced that he/she is a good one and then DO WHAT the MC says. You cannot get out of this anger and situation all by yourself so you will have to trust someone sooner or later.


*Picking at scabs opens wounds and delays the healing. How is that good for you?*


You said that you are going to keep your wife. Putting her down may help for the moment but if you ever get over your anger you will regret that you scared her. If she was a woman that did not give a damn then I could see putting her down but that is not the way you have described your wife. *Do not just think only of the now remember to think about your future.*


----------



## cpacan

First; Sorry you're here Forest, especially under these circumstances. Lots to ponder here. I've been in a similar boat as you. The difference is that I was told about a ONS that happened 15 years ago. I was told when she confessed the details about an LTA, that I discovered. This is three years ago, so I've had plenty of time to think.

I agree with Blunt, Adams and the others that while your newgained knowledge sucks, you should be able to recover and reconcile.

There's one post that you really haven't adressed though, and I think it's an important one.



3putt said:


> The question that keeps burning into me is how she kept it a secret all this time? 20 years?
> 
> Pretty much all *truly* remorseful women just don't have it in them to cover this up for such an extended period of time.
> 
> How does she explain that?
> 
> Not trying to cast any more doubts your way as I know you have enough on your plate as it is, but, this simply doesn't compute under the normal 'rules' we see here.
> 
> Makes me wonder....why now?


You see, my psychologist asked me how I thought she had managed to keep the secret for 15 years (he wasn't talking about avoiding scab picking). Think about it. No guilt for 20 years? I would ask her to explain in detail how she was capable of this. Was it insignificant, no big deal? She didn't have enough respect for your decision to rebuild? She didn't respect your right to decide for yourself? What you don't know won't hurt you?

"I thought you knew..." just doesn't pass the sniff test. 
Whatever the reason, she needs to know so that she can put in some work to change this core belief. Because if she doesn't, it's an insignificant thing to do tomorrow as well, and you should just get over it, by the way. 

Has she explained this to you?



Forest said:


> ... snip ....
> Our M/C though, has been good, wise, patient. She is trying to prod me to accept what I already know. This happened, and I can either walk away or stay. If I stay, I will only be happy if I try to overcome the anger and move on. Easier said than done.
> 
> I told my wife the other day that I am unsure if I can ever forgive and be truly happy, and asked if she could live with that, or should divorce be discussed. She said she will never seek divorce, but understands it is my option. She is trying very hard. Doing the right things.





Forest said:


> ... snip ...
> The M/C has told me to quit "picking at scabs" now, and try to let things heal. Very hard to do, but I believe she knows her stuff, and am trying to follow the advice if possible. I still get mad, but instead of blowing up I just shut up, then tell the wife I'm having anger issues at the moment.
> 
> Deal breakers? Hard to say. Most things like that I've grilled her about and feel like they didn't happen. Of course, you could counter that she anticipated this, and altered the story. I have no way to be sure, but my instincts. I just not going to do the polygraph thing. Too sensational for me. Just wouldn't do it.
> So, I doubt much more will come to light with the "picking scabs" moratorium and all.


What is wrong with this picture? Calling it "a scab" is further minimizing your feelings and justified anger and disappointment. Maybe it's a scab to your wife, but to you, it's a fresh and open wound - no scabs yet. You're on significant different time lines.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes...I figured out this was the guy you wanted to help....and I do hope the book helps forest and his wife.
> 
> And Conan...you have no idea what she did or did not pay...just because she lived with it In Silence does not mean she did not suffer from her decision to cheat or to remain silent.
> That is pure speculation on your part.


Now, we don't know anything about that, and that's why they need to discuss this instead of just rugsweep the whole thing disguised as forgiveness and not picking scabs.

A lot of posters say to forget the past, concentrate on the present, I subscribe to this philosphy as well, very much in fact, but I also know how it feels to question your entire life together when you suddenly see everything in a different light. It effects your present - who is this person you consider growing old with? You need to know in order to be able to move on together as a couple.


----------



## Forest

larry.gray said:


> Do you know if the OM had a vas at the time?


Well, I think he actually has fallopian tubes rather than a vas defferens.

But, at any rate, I've ascertained that he married for a second time later, and had a child....


----------



## Forest

For Mr. Blunt- you have a good point in that exploding at my wife has felt good while I'm doing it, and getting out some of those hateful thoughts has helped short term, it hasn't done much for the long term. Still, I'm glad she got to here some of what torments me.

I've gotten far more good out of the quiet and calm talks we have, like yesterday. Then, I can tell she can feel how much she has really messed me up. I should focus on that rather than details, at least most of the time.

For cpacan- I agree in part that she has a little bit of a sociopathic way of writing off her past transgressions. If she were in my shoes now, she'd have dealt with this more quickly, and left it alone.

As for the "I thought you knew" I've told over and over that's BS, we are just on opposite sides of the fence. She claims my behavior suggested I knew. In those days I never wanted to talk about anything emotional, I'd shrink away. She thought I knew and didn't want to talk about it. Her story and she's sticking with it, but has also apologized for not coming forward. I believe she thinks its the truth, but still call in BS every time it comes up.

The "scabs" thing is another with two clear factions. I've been on the "open wound" side all along. I think the M/C has tried to move it to a scab because she sees that I am focusing too much on it, and am deteriorating because of it. She sees me starting to spiral down now, and is trying what she can to stop it. This person has been very good and timely with her other suggestions, and makes well thought out observations.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Forest said:


> *I've been on the "open wound" side all along.*


Betrayal would always be an open wound. Keep it clean, dress it up and try not to look at it. That's all you can do because it doesn't heal. Your MC has never been cheated on. She might a lot of things, but not the pain of being betrayed. 

Too many years have passed and too many lies have been said. Remorse after so many years - seriously? For someone who has lied for so long, is faking remorse too big a task? Think about it.


----------



## Graywolf2

Forest said:


> As for the "I thought you knew" I've told over and over that's BS, we are just on opposite sides of the fence. She claims my behavior suggested I knew. In those days I never wanted to talk about anything emotional, I'd shrink away. *She thought I knew and didn't want to talk about it.* Her story and she's sticking with it, but has also apologized for not coming forward. I believe she thinks its the truth, but still call in BS every time it comes up.


I realize that this is beating a dead horse but here goes. You already asked her why she would lie if you already knew about the affair. How about asking her why she didn’t tell the TRUTH if you already knew about the affair. 

She quit her job so she wouldn’t have to see the OM again. Wouldn’t that have been comforting for you to know? You were never told that the affair you knew about had ended.

*She thought I knew and didn't want to talk about it.*

Wouldn't you want to talk about her taking positive steps to end the affair?


----------



## sammy3

Forest,

The reality is, we just have to learn to accept it and move on. We can analyze, cry, soul search, question, talk, beg, deal, harp, hope, change, compromise, understand, work on, or what ever else you want it call it. Suger coated it anyway one likes. But accepting is the only thing that will get you throught . Accepting all,... actions, behavior, change, consequences, and reality,... it wasnt what you thought it was,... it is what it is... it's reality, there is nothing you can do about it but accept it, it all falls on the BS shoulders... Like they like to say around here, your in the driver seat now, but sometimes that driver seat just svcks. 

-sammy


----------



## GusPolinski

Forest said:


> Have some *dignity* and *honor*.


IMO these two words are given far too little consideration -- and are spoken w/ far too little conviction -- in today's world.


----------



## larry.gray

Forest said:


> Well, I think he actually has fallopian tubes rather than a vas defferens.
> 
> But, at any rate, I've ascertained that he married for a second time later, and had a child....


Duude.... I love your sense of humor! If you can keep it right now that's a wonderful asset to help you through this.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Forest said:


> The "scabs" thing is another with two clear factions. I've been on the "open wound" side all along. I think the M/C has tried to move it to a scab because she sees that I am focusing too much on it, and am deteriorating because of it. She sees me starting to spiral down now, and is trying what she can to stop it. This person has been very good and timely with her other suggestions, and makes well thought out observations.


Looking back at your original post on things, I wonder if your therapist is using scabs to refer to the little details that side track you from some of the bigger issues. You get so focused on a smaller issue that you lose sight of some the bigger issues (perhaps as a way to avoid addressing those issues).

As far as my post of the last twenty years, I certainly did not want to make you doubt yourself. But I do think it can be a useful tool to calmly explain to your wife (and therapist) that it is not just about the events of 20 years ago. When trust is broken, it calls into question a whole host of things, including her actions since then. You don't think she did anything wrong since then, but you no longer *know *it, if that makes sense. That is a huge loss that you will be dealing with for some time.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Tall Average Guy said:


> Looking back at your original post on things, I wonder if your therapist is using scabs to refer to the little details that side track you from some of the bigger issues. You get so focused on a smaller issue that you lose sight of some the bigger issues (perhaps as a way to avoid addressing those issues).
> 
> As far as my post of the last twenty years, I certainly did not want to make you doubt yourself. But I do think it can be a useful tool to calmly explain to your wife (and therapist) that it is not just about the events of 20 years ago. When trust is broken, it calls into question a whole host of things, including her actions since then. You don't think she did anything wrong since then, but you no longer *know *it, if that makes sense. That is a huge loss that you will be dealing with for some time.


I agree. After 20 years of sham, moving forward with her is far harder than moving forward alone.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WhiteRaven said:


> I agree. After 20 years of sham, moving forward with her is far harder than moving forward alone.


That was not the point I was trying to make. Rather, the certainity that was there is gone. It is not insignificant and will require some time for him to mourn its loss and move forward.

I don't know which path will be easier for him. She may have ways to help him that make R a better choice and that allow him to trust the last 20 years. Or she may not and he can't get by it.

But they both need to acknowledge the loss regardless of how they move forward.


----------



## Anon Pink

DarkHoly said:


> Leave it to a woman to lie point blank and then be incredulous later that you didn't know the truth.


WTF!!!!!!!!

Are you actually asserting that women and only women are natural born liars and manipulators?

This is the main reason why I hate CWI. Bunch of burned husbands banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism.

Shame on you DarkHoly and shame on every asshat who like his post!

Shame on the mods who haven't deleted it!


----------



## larry.gray

Mods don't police the forums all the time, there is too much to read. If it's not reported, it probably stays.


----------



## Ripper

Somethings you just can't get "over". 

Somethings you simply shouldn't have too.

OP, can you see yourself dealing with this for another two decades?


----------



## Squeakr

Anon Pink said:


> WTF!!!!!!!!
> 
> Are you actually asserting that women and only women are natural born liars and manipulators?
> 
> This is the main reason why I hate CWI. Bunch of burned husbands banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism.
> 
> Shame on you DarkHoly and shame on every asshat who like his post!
> 
> Shame on the mods who haven't deleted it!


Shame on you for quoting it, as even if it does get deleted, unless they delete your post, it is there for posterity.

For the record it is just as bad against the males here with everyone (men and women alike) jumping on the beta, Mr Nice Guy, KISA bandwagon when a BH tells his story making him feel that he is partially responsible for being cheated on because he has a decent personality and isn't as "alpha" as people think he should be. The fact is that it is the female in these cases that is fully responsible for the cheating, whether she feels justified or not by his actions and it is in no way his fault (as their is *ALWAYS* another option other than cheating).


----------



## sammy3

Mrs. John Adams said:


> if you have a truly remorseful Ws...it should all fall on THEIR shoulders...it is THEIR burden to help you heal.


Oh yes, but sadly, we have to live with it everyday too.... and that is a reality.

-sammy


----------



## Ripper

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I see him dealing with it the rest if his life...it doesn't go away..it just becomes less overwhelming


Absolutely agree.

But there is a difference in dealing with something when you feel the other party "just got away with it" and when you have doled out consequences.

Unfortunately, at this point the only consequence that would likely matter is a divorce. The OP has lived with betrayal and deceit for over 20 years. How can you do anything to make that better?


----------



## bfree

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes sadly we will carry the scars of infidelity forever...both the WS and the bs.


When you strike a match there is no telling where the fire will spread or who it will burn. Infidelity destroys...and it doesn't discriminate.


----------



## bfree

Ripper said:


> Absolutely agree.
> 
> But there is a difference in dealing with something when you feel the other party "just got away with it" and when you have doled out consequences.
> 
> Unfortunately, at this point the only consequence that would likely matter is a divorce. The OP has lived with betrayal and deceit for over 20 years. How can you do anything to make that better?


It may feel like they "got away with it" but in truth they didn't. Unless you are a sociopath cheating rips out part of your soul and leaves an empty spot. The ironic thing is that this hole can only be filled by the milk of forgiveness flowing from the one you betrayed.


----------



## Anon Pink

Squeakr said:


> Shame on you for quoting it, as even if it does get deleted, unless they delete your post, it is there for posterity.
> 
> For the record it is just as bad against the males here with everyone (men and women alike) jumping on the beta, Mr Nice Guy, KISA bandwagon when a BH tells his story making him feel that he is partially responsible for being cheated on because he has a decent personality and isn't as "alpha" as people think he should be. The fact is that it is the female in these cases that is fully responsible for the cheating, whether she feels justified or not by his actions and it is in no way his fault (as their is *ALWAYS* another option other than cheating).


For the record, if and when the mods delete his post, they WILL also delete mine. They remove the offending post and every subsequent post that refers back to it. Which means your post as well as this very post of mine will also likely be deleted.

As to your second point....wtf? How does that tie into the first point? Are you accusing me of jumping on the bad beta bandwagon? If so, you are badly misinformed.


----------



## Anon Pink

Fenris said:


> And tongue-in-cheek humor doesn't always translate well to written text either. I read it as a joke at the WW expense.


So it's okay to make jokes like that? Because a spouse cheats and is a woman it's an indictment of all women?

Because a man rapes, is that an indictment of all men? Is that okay?


----------



## Ripper

bfree said:


> It may feel like they "got away with it" but in truth they didn't. Unless you are a sociopath cheating rips out part of your soul and leaves an empty spot. The ironic thing is that this hole can only be filled by the milk of forgiveness flowing from the one you betrayed.


If true, a significant amount of undiagnosed sociopaths are running free in society. 

How many unfaithful people continue to skip through life until exposed or faced with tangible consequences? My answer: Most.


----------



## Anon Pink

Fenris said:


> Sure, because cheating is sooooo equal to rape.
> 
> Sorry. Not a chance. I've been cheated on. I was completely broken by the experience at the time.
> 
> But guess what? I would NEVER compare it to being raped. They aren't even in the same country, much less the same neighborhood.
> 
> And a *stupid joke* is NOT an indictment of all women. NOBODY believes that all women lie. And NOBODY should believe that ANYONE believes that all women lie.


I'm not comparing cheating to rape. I'm comparing the inappropriate generalizations made. A wife cheats therefor all women are cheaters. A man rapes therefor all men are rapists. Neither statement is accurate and both statements are outrageously unfair generalizations.


----------



## Squeakr

Anon Pink said:


> For the record, if and when the mods delete his post, they WILL also delete mine. They remove the offending post and every subsequent post that refers back to it. Which means your post as well as this very post of mine will also likely be deleted.
> 
> As to your second point....wtf? How does that tie into the first point? Are you accusing me of jumping on the bad beta bandwagon? If so, you are badly misinformed.


The second point was based upon your generalization that BH come here to slap each other on The back and congratulate on oneupmanship of who had the better betrayed story. You complain about generalizations regarding certain sexes but then make them yourself. I was showing that it is just as bad, if not worse for the BH as they also have to deal with the chiding from everyone for not being alpha and bringing the cheating into their house by being not alpha. It is not all happy glad handing and back slapping as you think. If this is all you see on CWI them maybe you should stay away more as it is entirely biased. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Squeakr said:


> The second point was based upon your generalization that BH come here to slap each other on The back and congratulate on oneupmanship of who had the better betrayed story. You complain about generalizations regarding certain sexes but then make them yourself. I was showing that it is just as bad, if not worse for the BH as they also have to deal with the chiding from everyone for not being alpha and bringing the cheating into their house by being not alpha. It is not all happy glad handing and back slapping as you think. If this is all you see on CWI them maybe you should stay away more as it is entirely biased.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what I said:


> This is the main reason why I hate CWI. Bunch of burned husbands banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism.


Not sure how you got alpha/beta out of it.:scratchhead:


----------



## GusPolinski

Generalizations are just dumb, including this one.


----------



## Squeakr

Anon Pink said:


> This is what I said:
> 
> 
> Not sure how you got alpha/beta out of it.:scratchhead:


I am not making that conclusion from your statements. You seem to portray it as a good time for the BH with back slaps and happiness. I am saying it is not that. It is lots of embarrassment, pain, and belittling by way of the alpha/ beta ribbing. Not sure how you got that I was comparing your statements to that alpha/ beta ribbing? I was making a statement just like you did with your rape comparison statement to show how wrong your ideal of the BH coming here for the humiliation enjoyment that you seem to think abounds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Will I forever think of her as "my wife that cheated"?*



Anon Pink said:


> I'm not comparing cheating to rape. I'm comparing the inappropriate generalizations made. A wife cheats therefor all women are cheaters. A man rapes therefor all men are rapists. Neither statement is accurate and both statements are outrageously unfair generalizations.


For the record, Dr Harley does compare the betrayal of infidelity to the trauma of rape. His conclusion from people who have experienced both is that infidelity is worse.


----------



## jorgegene

Squeakr said:


> Shame on you for quoting it, as even if it does get deleted, unless they delete your post, it is there for posterity.
> 
> For the record it is just as bad against the males here with everyone (men and women alike) jumping on the beta, Mr Nice Guy, KISA bandwagon when a BH tells his story making him feel that he is partially responsible for being cheated on because he has a decent personality and isn't as "alpha" as people think he should be. The fact is that it is the female in these cases that is fully responsible for the cheating, whether she feels justified or not by his actions and it is in no way his fault (as their is *ALWAYS* another option other than cheating).


Yes, I was amazed when I joined this site and saw how 'beta' males are jumped on and shot down here.

They're opinions of course, as legitimate as any others.
Personally, I don't buy the whole line that "she left him/cheated cause he was too beta". Sorry just don't buy it.

I get the feeling most of it comes from guys who like to think they're real 'alpha' and bag on the 'nice guys'.


----------



## jorgegene

Fenris said:


> *sighs*
> 
> Idea...
> 
> We drop the generalizations completely and concentrate on OP's plight.


Ok


----------



## Anon Pink

bfree said:


> For the record, Dr Harley does compare the betrayal of infidelity to the trauma of rape. His conclusion from people who have experienced both is that infidelity is worse.


Then Dr Harley is a bigger sexist D bag than I originally thought.

I can unequivocally state that cheating doesn't even get close to the trauma of rape.

I can also unequivocally state that healing from either takes a decision to make it so.


----------



## Squeakr

Anon Pink said:


> Then Dr Harley is a bigger sexist D bag than I originally thought.
> 
> I can unequivocally state that cheating doesn't even get close to the trauma of rape.
> 
> I can also unequivocally state that healing from either takes a decision to make it so.


Wow you are on a real rampage against men today. How is Hartley's findings from his dealings with people that have experienced both make him sexist or a D bag? These are just his research findings from what these people that experienced both have told him. Men and women alike can be raped so his assessment is not sexist from what I see but a summation of his research findings. Individual experiences will vary that is for sure and may not be your experience but that doesn't make his research findings any less valid. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Squeakr said:


> Wow you are on a real rampage against men today. How is Hartley's findings from his dealings with people that have experienced both make him sexist or a D bag? These are just his research findings from what these people that experienced both have told him. Men and women alike can be raped so his assessment is not sexist from what I see but a summation of his research findings. Individual experiences will vary that is for sure and may not be your experience but that doesn't make his research findings any less valid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not on a rampage against men! God dammit! Why is it that when a woman says "HEY! That wasn't right or fair to say what you said" she is labeled as being against men?

I have a few issues with marriage builders philosophy. I agree with much of it, but not all of it. I think he is a D Bag because he came out against marriage equality. I think he also completely overlooks other serious issues that are involved with sex aversions, but I agree with his view that sex aversion MUST be worked on for a marriage to remain a happy one.

No where in any of my posts can you find generalizations against men. I'm Against statements, against philosophies and against generalizations made by others. And for that, I'm now labeled as against men?

This is why I hate this section of the forum. You call someone out for saying something stupid and you get jumped on for sh!T you have nothing to do with.

ETA: not even touching your defensive of his believe that rape trauma is similar to infidelity trauma. That's just one of the stupidest, most ignorant DBag things Harley has ever come out with!


----------



## warlock07

JerryB said:


> It's going to hurt, but it was 20 years ago.
> *Except for the obvious betrayal part, shouldn't this stack up to "previous lovers" before you met*? You don't obsess or visualize that, do you?
> Meditate on all the positive things that have happened since then, and I believe you'll find the answer if your marriage is worth forgiving and continuing.
> 
> Once that decision is made, I'd get the right book and figure out how to forgive her so that you don't hold it against her. You need to be all in, or all out. It's only fair to you both. Then get back to loving each other. Similar to what others said...


the bold part is absolutely dumb...

I agree partly with the rest of the post...But it also deals in absolutes. The whole thing is a roller coaster..And it is a bit convinient for the WS to demand fairness when she kept lying for 20 years...Things will never be fair ever again. Nothing this guy will do(don't mean abuse, only indecision, hesitation to completely commit or conflicting feelings) will top it. It took her 20 years to confess(not on her own volition either). A bit rich for her to ask the BS to come to a quick decision or not hold it against her..

Actually I don't agree with the most of the post.


----------



## 3putt

Anon Pink said:


> Then Dr Harley is a bigger sexist D bag than I originally thought.
> 
> *I can unequivocally state that cheating doesn't even get close to the trauma of rape.*
> 
> I can also unequivocally state that healing from either takes a decision to make it so.


You can state that for certain for you, but you can in NO way, shape or form state that for others. Yes, Dr. Harley has indeed said that for some women infidelity is worse than rape, and he has personally counseled numerous women that have experienced both. From his 40+ years of experience in dealing with these things I would be more inclined to believe him that any all inclusive statements a message board identity makes.

And to say he's a sexist Dbag is nothing more than pure ignorance on your part. He long ago proved his value in this field.


----------



## warlock07

Anon Pink said:


> WTF!!!!!!!!
> 
> Are you actually asserting that women and only women are natural born liars and manipulators?
> 
> This is the main reason why I hate CWI. *Bunch of burned husbands* banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism.
> 
> Shame on you DarkHoly and shame on every asshat who like his post!
> 
> Shame on the mods who haven't deleted it!


Let me attack your sexist statement with another sexist statement...


----------



## warlock07

> Why is everyone so into the condom question? I fully understand that affairs can be spontaneous, which would lead to that, but I don't have trouble believing her. I would have trouble believing she would do it without, though. She is controlling by nature, and was overly careful nature to avoid pregnancy. We used condoms for a year after my vasectomy, until I'd been test 3 times.


Suddenly reminded me of Chris989's WW. That one was brutal. Anyone remember his story ?


----------



## Forest

Wowwy Wowwy, lets all band together and bash cheaters for awhile, eh? By the way, have you noticed that this forum has something like 700-800 people reading, more than any other forum usually, including sex talk. Pretty dadgum awful. Intolerable. Hence, some of my trouble.

I think men view a female cheater as a special kind of creature that exists to hurt men, and female view male cheaters about the same.
When you're wrapped up in a thread about a woman doing the wrong, those kind of comments come out.

Were it a man, the comments would likely be along the lines of how pig-ish, callous and shallow men can be. 

Right now I have to go deal with a dog, a water hose, a dirty duck pool, and an electric fence in no particular order, but will be back to answer shiz.


----------



## Anon Pink

I can state that for the vast majority of women, the trauma of rape is infinitely worse.



3putt said:


> You can state that for certain for you, but you can in NO way, shape or form state that for others. Yes, Dr. Harley has indeed said that for *some women infidelity is worse than rape,* and he has personally counseled numerous women that have experienced both. From his 40+ years of experience in dealing with these things I would be more inclined to believe him that any all inclusive statements a message board identity makes.



This is why I have a problem with dr Harley's statement, whatever it actually was. He may have counseled 100's and 100's of couples over his 40 plus years but exactly how many couples involved the disclosure of a past rape and the subsequent number of women who decided the cheating was worse? He makes general statements without the research and quantifiable numbers to back it up. Then publishes it on his own website and the general public pick it up. And because he seems to say a lot of things that make sense, everything he says must also be of sense. 

Then of course you run into the trouble of his statements being misconstrued and or misquoted.



bfree said:


> For the record, Dr Harley does compare the betrayal of infidelity to the trauma of rape. His conclusion from *people who have experienced both is that infidelity is worse.*





3putt said:


> And to say he's a sexist Dbag is nothing more than pure ignorance on your part. He long ago proved his value in this field.


Sorry doesn't fit 3putt. As I said before, there are a great many ideas he expresses that I agree with, but there are some ideas he has expressed that I find sexist (in the limiting sense not the denigrating sense) and or significantly bigoted.

I don't recommend throwing the baby out with the bath water. I also don't recommend he be elevated to the wizengamot either.


----------



## Squeakr

Anon Pink said:


> I am not on a rampage against men! God dammit! Why is it that when a woman says "HEY! That wasn't right or fair to say what you said" she is labeled as being against men?
> 
> No where in any of my posts can you find generalizations against men. I'm Against statements, against philosophies and against generalizations made by others. And for that, I'm now labeled as against men?
> 
> This is why I hate this section of the forum. You call someone out for saying something stupid and you get jumped on for sh!T you have nothing to do with.


Your statements about "*Bunch of burned husbands banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism*" and "*Dr. Harley is a bigger sexist D Bag than I originally thought*" are nothing but claims against men (especially since you called him sexist, I wouldn't have said anything about that statement had you have not included the sexist remark as that really had no place except to attack men). Plain and simple no other way that these statements can be taken except claims against men. You never said it as "HEY! That wasn't right or fair to say what you said" as you claim, you singled out a sex, in this case men. 

You did generalize when you stated that CWI is filled with a *Bunch of burned husbands banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism*. How is that not a generalization against men that you have so vehemently claimed not to have made, as it is not fact that is for sure?


----------



## 3putt

Anon Pink said:


> I can state that for the vast majority of women, the trauma of rape is infinitely worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I have a problem with dr Harley's statement, whatever it actually was. He may have counseled 100's and 100's of couples over his 40 plus years but exactly how many couples involved the disclosure of a past rape and the subsequent number of women who decided the cheating was worse? He makes general statements without the research and quantifiable numbers to back it up. Then publishes it on his own website and the general public pick it up. And because he seems to say a lot of things that make sense, everything he says must also be of sense.
> 
> Then of course you run into the trouble of his statements being misconstrued and or misquoted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry doesn't fit 3putt. As I said before, there are a great many ideas he expresses that I agree with, but there are some ideas he has expressed that I find sexist (in the limiting sense not the denigrating sense) and or significantly bigoted.
> 
> I don't recommend throwing the baby out with the bath water. I also don't recommend he be elevated to the wizengamot either.


Since you seem to have such a pulse on the man, why not take it to the man himself and ask him? I guarantee you he *will *return your call or email.

[email protected]

(651) 762-8570

If you such confidence in what you speak about the man then you should have no problem discussing it with him. I know he'll be more than happy to chat with you. He's quite approachable.

Let us know what he says. I'd personally love to hear it.


----------



## Anon Pink

Squeakr said:


> Your statements about "*Bunch of burned husbands banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism*" and "*Dr. Harley is a bigger sexist D Bag than I originally thought*" are nothing but claims against men (especially since you called him sexist, I wouldn't have said anything about that statement had you have not included the sexist remark as that really had no place except to attack men). Plain and simple no other way that these statements can be taken except claims against men. You never said it as "HEY! That wasn't right or fair to say what you said" as you claim, you singled out a sex, in this case men.
> 
> You did generalize when you stated that CWI is filled with a *Bunch of burned husbands banning together to clap one another on the back for the best case of chip in shoulder cynicism*. How is that not a generalization against men that you have so vehemently claimed not to have made, as it is not fact that is for sure?


My statement about why I hate CWI was not an indictment of men, but of CWI and the prevailing attitude accepted as normal here!

You are not the first, second or 20th man yes MAN to accuse me of man hating because I call out a MAN for making a generalizing statement against all women!

Jesus Christ! The original statement I called out was this


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by DarkHoly
> Leave it to a woman to lie point blank and then be incredulous later that you didn't know the truth.


No where, not one single thing have I said that even comes close to the dismissive and disgraceful sweeping statement above. But does anyone else call him out? Hell no, that would go against the prevailing attitude here! He even got a bunch of LIKES on it!

And what happens? You jump on the woman who calls him out, you defend him and his tongue in cheek statement and jump on me. 

None of this makes sense. 

I get you are all hurt, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to be hurtful to others!


----------



## warlock07

> My statement about why I hate CWI was not an indictment of men, but of CWI and the prevailing attitude accepted as normal here!


I would have liked that post


----------



## Squeakr

Anon Pink said:


> My statement about why I hate CWI was not an indictment of men, but of CWI and the prevailing attitude accepted as normal here!
> 
> You are not the first, second or 20th man yes MAN to accuse me of man hating because I call out a MAN for making a generalizing statement against all women!
> 
> Jesus Christ! The original statement I called out was this
> 
> 
> No where, not one single thing have I said that even comes close to the dismissive and disgraceful sweeping statement above. But does anyone else call him out? Hell no, that would go against the prevailing attitude here! He even got a bunch of LIKES on it!
> 
> And what happens? You jump on the woman who calls him out, you defend him and his tongue in cheek statement and jump on me.
> 
> None of this makes sense.
> 
> I get you are all hurt, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to be hurtful to others!


*Where did I defend him? Since you are claiming it, prove it along with you insinuating about my agreement with those that liked it!!!* I dare you to show this, as it never happened.

All I did is point out that for quoting it you were making it there for posterity (even if the original post was removed). I never jumped on anyone! Then I made a completely unsupporting and unrelated comment within that same post to show you that the BH doesn't necessarily have it as good on this site as you think we do. You did nothing but respond with swears at me and make sexist statements and generalizations about men on this site.

We all hurt here, and your hurt against your H doesn't give you anymore right to insult and generalize than for the betrayed men that were hurt by their WW's to do the same regarding women. I have done none of that in this thread yet you have called me out and accused me of things that never happened. I say again, prove all your accusations against me.


----------



## Thorburn

Anon Pink said:


> My statement about why I hate CWI was not an indictment of men, but of CWI and the prevailing attitude accepted as normal here!
> 
> You are not the first, second or 20th man yes MAN to accuse me of man hating because I call out a MAN for making a generalizing statement against all women!
> 
> Jesus Christ! The original statement I called out was this
> 
> 
> No where, not one single thing have I said that even comes close to the dismissive and disgraceful sweeping statement above. But does anyone else call him out? Hell no, that would go against the prevailing attitude here! He even got a bunch of LIKES on it!
> 
> And what happens? You jump on the woman who calls him out, you defend him and his tongue in cheek statement and jump on me.
> 
> None of this makes sense.
> 
> I get you are all hurt, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to be hurtful to others!


Now you are offending us Christians. It is one thing to take offense with what you say is one poster making a sexist statement, but I do take using my Lord's name in vain as very offensive to me and other Christians on this forum.


And by the way, there was a poll back in 2010 here on TAM about Rape and infidelity, as to which one folks thought was worse. You might be surprised.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/13345-poll.html

From my POV clinically, the trauma from rape and infidelity are very similar, and yes I have heard from woman that have experienced both, state that their husband's infidelity was worse then being raped. Conclusive, of course not, but I have heard it myself more than once and I never heard that rape was worse then infidelity from those that experienced both.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Forest said:


> Right now I have to go deal with a dog, a water hose, a dirty duck pool, and an electric fence in no particular order, but will be back to answer shiz.


I can't help you with all your problems, but I feel certain in advising you not to work on the electric fence while standing in the duck pond spraying the water hose.

Beyond that you are on your own.


----------



## Squeakr

Tall Average Guy said:


> I can't help you with all your problems, but I feel certain in advising you not to work on the electric fence while standing in the duck pond spraying the water hose.
> 
> Beyond that you are on your own.


Good advice. I concur.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Forest said:


> Its the worst Catch 22. I don't want an unfaithful spouse, but don't want to divorce. Yet I must pick one or the other. What a crummy deal to be handed.



It is indeed. And I also would have forever seen her as "the wife that cheated". And no way was I going to live like that. So I made her my x-wife




> Well, I did a lot of talking without much asking. I guess I want to know if men can get over this horrible affliction of an unfaithful wife?


Depends on the man. For me, the only way I could get over it was to get rid of her. If she is no longer significant to me, then there is nothing to no longer get over.




> I will concede that I have no worries about her now, and she's been faithful for the last 20 years. Still, it eats at me.


I can completely understand.

And even though its the wrong way to think about it, the issue still pops up in my mind. There is a terrible imbalance in the relationship now.
One of you got to go out and have their little fun, cheat, and get away with it.
Not saying you should have been allowed to cheat to even it up, because its not right. But there is still that imbalance. She did get to enjoy another man during your marriage and could be seen as it is out of her system, but it was at your expense.



> She was sorrowful, and said it was true. She said she thought I knew, based on my actions, but didn't want to talk about it.


Just a comment on the above. Bullsh#t. She didn't have the tits to tell you, so she fed you this line of bull. The idea that she thought you knew, which is why she didn't tell you? bunk


----------



## vellocet

Forest said:


> Wowwy Wowwy, lets all band together and bash cheaters for awhile, eh?


Well, if you insist.


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> Then Dr Harley is a bigger sexist D bag than I originally thought.
> 
> I can unequivocally state that cheating doesn't even get close to the trauma of rape.
> 
> I can also unequivocally state that healing from either takes a decision to make it so.


Rather than minimize the trauma of rape I think what Dr. Harley was trying to stress is that we do not take acts of infidelity seriously enough in today's society. I have never been raped so I can not even remotely envision the feelings and horror that act elicits. However I have experienced the trauma of being cheated on and I can unequivocally state that it sent me into such a destructive tailspin that death would have been a sweet release from my torment. In point of fact I not only contemplated suicide I actually attempted it on two occasions. Thankfully I was not only a coward I was also inept. But it does go to show the terrible effect that this type of betrayal can have. Furthermore mental health professionals note the similarities and extensive overlapping between PTSD and Rape Trauma Syndrome. I think Dr. Harley's comparison of infidelity and rape does not make him a sexist or a D bag but shows that he understands that both acts can cause long lasting destructive effects detrimental to normal human function.


----------



## JerryB

warlock07 said:


> the bold part is absolutely dumb...
> 
> I agree partly with the rest of the post...But
> 
> Actually I don't agree with the most of the post.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE


----------



## Forest

Tall Average Guy said:


> Looking back at your original post on things, I wonder if your therapist is using scabs to refer to the little details that side track you from some of the bigger issues. You get so focused on a smaller issue that you lose sight of some the bigger issues (perhaps as a way to avoid addressing those issues).


Think this is a pretty accurate assessment. The M/C is no dummy.

As far as the "thought you knew" thing, it will never get resolved satisfactorily, it just been too long. She got caught in her web, and was afraid to come out. 

Like someone else pointed out, I'll just never get over it. It will be here always. Yep the worst example of a Catch-22 I'll ever run into. A "no win", "lose-lose", "lessor of two evils", "bad to worse"...what else am I missing?

I may go outside and chop down a tree.


----------



## theroad

Forest said:


> Why is everyone so into the condom question? I fully understand that affairs can be spontaneous, which would lead to that, but I don't have trouble believing her. I would have trouble believing she would do it without, though. She is controlling by nature, and was overly careful nature to avoid pregnancy. We used condoms for a year after my vasectomy, until I'd been test 3 times.


Because WW's have a hard time telling all that happened. They want to save themselves from the pain of having to say the OM rode her bareback and save the BH from hearing that the WW allowed the OM to not wear protection.

We stress this point because we have seen 1,000's of affairs where the WW did not require the OM to use a condom. So often it seems to be one of the many standard WW go to affair plays.


----------



## sammy3

Just the other day, I was talking with my gf who's common-law husband left her for the pregnant ow after 20 + years together. And this is what she said to me. "I was raped when I was younger, and what my husband did to me was far worst, as at least I didn't know my assailant." I kid you not. 

-sammy


----------



## theroad

Anon Pink said:


> My statement about why I hate CWI was not an indictment of men, but of CWI and the prevailing attitude accepted as normal here!
> 
> You are not the first, second or 20th man yes MAN to accuse me of man hating because I call out a MAN for making a generalizing statement against all women!
> 
> Jesus Christ! The original statement I called out was this
> 
> 
> No where, not one single thing have I said that even comes close to the dismissive and disgraceful sweeping statement above. But does anyone else call him out? Hell no, that would go against the prevailing attitude here! He even got a bunch of LIKES on it!
> 
> And what happens? You jump on the woman who calls him out, you defend him and his tongue in cheek statement and jump on me.
> 
> None of this makes sense.
> 
> I get you are all hurt, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to be hurtful to others!


Incredulous is a WW saying 20 years after the affair on her D day to her BH is that I thought you were able to figure out that I banged the OM and that you did not bring it up because that was the way you wanted to handle me having an affair.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

sammy3 said:


> Just the other day, I was talking with my gf who's common-law husband left her for the pregnant ow after 20 + years together. And this is what she said to me. *"I was raped when I was younger, and what my husband did to me was far worst, as at least I didn't know my assailant."* I kid you not.
> 
> -sammy


Wow. It's hard for me to fathom how the "husband" leaving to be with the AP is more painful then being sexually assaulted(me being a guy and all). But that really made me think about it...

Forest, one day at a time right now. The above quote from sammy3's GF made me realize that the fact that the PA went on for a year, you then had suspicions that your wife rebuffed, only to find that you were right. 20 years later...

I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

Have you PM'd any of the posters. like the "Adams's? Posters that are a decade, or more, out from DDay may be able to better serve you.

Again, sorry if I was insensitive with some of my earlier posts. Thinking about the 20 years has just sunk in for me. It makes this much harder to deal with as you well know.

Maybe take things a month at a time right now. As long as the next month is at least a little better then the last, you'll be making progress. If you go a few months without any of it getting better, or easier for you, then decide what needs to change.

And be careful cutting down that tree. Running a chainsaw isn't something you want to be doing if your mind keeps wandering to something else.


----------



## allwillbewell

Forester, 
1st: Sorry you are here
2nd: 4 months from Dday is too early to decide about divorce, or expect the devastation of infidelity, no matter when it happened, to be over.
3rd: take all these posts with a grain of salt, especially the extremely bitter ones that are so full of vengeance, retribution and misery...you have to do what's right for you and you can't rush it.

*I know how you feel*: I learned 20 years later that my WH had a 1-year affair I never knew about.

I learned it from his second AP 3 years ago right after Dday of 2nd A which had gone on for 6(!) years before I discovered it.

False R for 1.5 years; H denied 1st A, until OW#2 repeated the accusation and he finally confessed on Dday #2. OW#2 still tries to intrude occasionally, fishing around to see if FWH is "happy with his decision". 

We never separated and I experienced ALL the emotions you describe except for unleashing the full extant of my fury upon him.

Please consider as you turn the corner of your misery, and begin the climb to healing:

Someone probably has a worse story. Yes, your pain is unique but after reading the stories on TAM, even I realized some people had it worse.

Human beings are many faceted: we all have an evil, selfish, dishonest, dishonorable side. But just as you would not want to have your entire life judged on the worst episode of your actions, neither should our WSs. Everyone has a right and obligation to try to redeem themselves and it sounds like your wife had already done that hard work IF she truly has reformed and is telling the truth.

No matter what the transgression, ALL of us, if we are honest lie by omission/commission to protect ourselves(selfishness), our loved ones(protecting them from hurt) or our circumstance. If we are not caught, we compartmentalize, the sin is buried deep within our consciousness and forgotten. It does not stay active in our awareness demanding that we lie, lie, lie every day to the those around us. 

To be able to sooth the anger and resentment you rightfully feel towards your WS, you have to disconnect the thought and image loops your brain continually plays. While the WS is wholly responsible for the affair, it is in the PAST. The more you indulge in the self-created misery of the present by obsessing on the past, the more likely the painful emotional associations will be hardwired to these thoughts. Triggers will happen but the point is to disconnect the emotion from the memory, much like you douse a fire rather than fan it. Distract yourself, get up and move, even force yourself to remember a good characteristic or memory of your WS to douse the trigger. Incredibly difficult but possible and believe me...it eventually works. 

Once your mind and heart return to a somewhat even keel, you can begin to weigh the good and true characteristics of the WS and the good and true moments of your marriage against the bad to begin to assess whether R is worth it...it could actually take years so be patient.

Be VERY careful with the words you sling around...they can never be taken back. As we all know an apology, even an infinite number cannot fill the hole caused by a hurt. You may feel justified, even encouraged by some here on TAM to vilify your S, make her suffer the consequences of what she did with your words and anger as she made you suffer. But if in the future, you try to reconcile, your words will remain in her heart and may cause more problems down the road. 

Life is not just...we suffer, and can never truly find the answer to the WHY? we continue to search for...accept that and move on. Making another person suffer for their sins only lowers us to level that is just as dishonorable. You must try to accept that your S and marriage were not what you thought, and allow yourself to grieve that loss but then if you determine that you are able to rebuild your relationship then you must begin to make new memories, new love with the same spouse. And this is how forgiveness begins, very slowly with many obstacles and challenges...until the good overcomes the bad and tips the scales to a renewal.

Of course all this is predicated on the assumption the WS is honest and fully transparent, rebuilding the protective wall of the marriage by meaningful actions to help the BS to heal. 

Please give yourself time to come out of the traumatic shock this event has caused before you make any decisions and yes! trust your gut. It was right the first time and possibly you blame yourself for not listening to it then. I realized that I felt a lot of anger towards myself for the years of denial and confused that with the anger I justifiably felt towards my H's betrayal. When I sorted that all out, a lot of the anger simply dissipated. 

No matter what you decide, it will get better, SLOWLY, so be patient with yourself and S. Think carefully and long before you act or speak...a wrong action does not result in a right outcome...read as much from the professionals as you can, books, websites and hang in there.

Good luck and you are in my prayers tonight...brother.


----------



## sidney2718

Forest said:


> I suppose I will never get over this, never look at her the same again, but do not have the will or desire to banish her from my life. I have to acknowledge that since this horrible betrayal she has been faithful, devoted, and true to me. I'm not happy at the moment, but not disposed to cut her out of my life. We have more or a bond than that.
> 
> I've punished her harshly for the betrayal, and it will continue in some form for at least awhile longer, and she knows that. The stain is going to be around for the foreseeable future, even though it pains me. No way around it. I just hope someday it is not always in the forefront of my mind.
> 
> Infidelity, adultery, betrayal, etc is a special kind of awful tragedy. What a crying shame. Wish I could have read a story like this as a newlywed. Such a waste. And for what gain, really? Tragic.


Affairs kill trust. But the original trust husbands and wives have with each other is a bit of an illusion. Roughly half of those marriages will go bust for one reason or another.

Perhaps we'd all be better off if we realized from the get-go that trust in marriage is a bit of a gamble. Our partners should know that as well. And no, it does not mean that we should be in CIA mode all the time, or even at all. But it does mean that we need not only to stay in communication, but we need to treat our partners as equals having needs and desires just as we do.

It also means that some of our illusions have to go. We aren't teen agers any more.

Forest, I hear you and I'm rooting for you. It CAN work out. Much of the lost trust will come back as the love grows.


----------



## sidney2718

DarkHoly said:


> Leave it to a woman to lie point blank and then be incredulous later that you didn't know the truth.


That's not so strange. Women and men communicate differently. In this case I think it quite possible that when Forest did not comment, she thought he understood what she was implying.

There ought to be a mandatory high school course in how to communicate with the opposite sex.


----------



## sidney2718

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes sadly we will carry the scars of infidelity forever...both the WS and the bs.


But that is life. It isn't perfect and horrible things happen. And in the end we have to find the maturity to live with history and still move onward.


----------



## sidney2718

theroad said:


> Incredulous is a WW saying 20 years after the affair on her D day to her BH is that I thought you were able to figure out that I banged the OM and that you did not bring it up because that was the way you wanted to handle me having an affair.


Not at all... Saying "you didn't say anything so I thought you agreed is very common."


----------



## Dyokemm

"Wow. It's hard for me to fathom how the "husband" leaving to be with the AP is more painful then being sexually assaulted(me being a guy and all). But that really made me think about it..."

I think this is something that would vary from person to person as to which was more traumatic.

For those who say infidelity hit them worse, it may have to do with the pain of betrayal by someone who is deeply loved and trusted.

Perhaps that pain outweighs, for them, the pain and trauma of an assault by a person who can be safely hated and despised for the injury they have inflicted. 

But a traitorous partner is a horrifying mish mash of emotions for most people. Love and hate constantly compete for dominance in the BS's mind. The mind constantly questions why and seeks for some logical explanation of a betrayal that ultimately has no logic to it at all.


----------



## Forest

Had another couple of good talks yesterday afternoon. Mostly about how unsure how I am going to respond and behave the rest of my life. She says she understands, and will never reach a point where she can't stand it. As we are both very mature now, I don't feel this will change in here.

Like always, she was sorrowful, apologetic, and the pain shows on her face. Sad to say, but that (the pained expression) always makes me feel a little better. Is that weird, mean, or just because I know she understands.

She rarely asks this, but again asked if I thought I ever could forgive her. I told her I just don't know. In the past I've told her I know I'll never get completely over it, and can't predict the forgiveness part. That may be harsh, but its the truth.

As Marty Feldman observed while robbing a grave in Young Frankstein, "It could be worse - it could be raining."


----------



## 86857

A generalising gender war on the thread. . . dang I was wishing there wouldn't be an outbreak on here. 
Some men are different from other men. 
Some women are different from other women. 
Some men are cheaters and some are not. 
Some women are cheaters and some are not.
etc etc etc etc etc

Yawn. 

Hope you're doing OK Forest.

ETA - Sorry Forest, didn't see your note above when I posted this.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Forest said:


> Like always, she was sorrowful, apologetic, and the pain shows on her face. Sad to say, but that (the pained expression) always makes me feel a little better. Is that weird, mean, or just because I know she understands.


Probably some combination. Mean because we should not want loved ones hurt, yet also gratifying that maybe she does get it, even if only a bit.



> She rarely asks this, but again asked if I thought I ever could forgive her. I told her I just don't know. In the past I've told her I know I'll never get completely over it, and can't predict the forgiveness part. That may be harsh, but its the truth.


Think about what forgiveness means to you and to a marriage. I encourage you to work toward forgiving her, regardless of what path you choose. It is not just (or even mostly) for her, but rather for you. Carrying around all that anger and hate can hurt you far more than it ever hurts her. So work to let that go.

Forgiveness does not mean you trust her or even want to stay married. But you do need to do so if you want to stay with her.


----------



## Graywolf2

The best definition I’ve heard for forgiving infidelity uses the same definition as financial forgiveness.

When you forgive a loan it means that you have given up on being paid back the money. No hard feelings, no collection agency, you can be friends, etc.

But you will never loan that person money again.


----------



## 86857

Hi Forest, sorry I didn't see the above before I posted my little 'ahem all' note.


> Like always, she was sorrowful, apologetic, and the pain shows on her face. Sad to say, but that (the pained expression) always makes me feel a little better. Is that weird, mean, or just because I know she understands.


Spot on. It's because you know she is truly remorseful. Seems to be the number one thing BS want and sadly so often don't get. 


> She rarely asks this, but again asked if I thought I ever could forgive her. I told her I just don't know. In the past I've told her I know I'll never get completely over it, and can't predict the forgiveness part. That may be harsh, but its the truth.


Keep telling the truth. It's a process and she needs to be there every step of the way with you. To help you, she needs to know where you are on the journey. 


> As Marty Feldman observed while robbing a grave in Young Frankstein, "It could be worse - it could be raining."


  

Forest, do you think you guys will be able to have a good laugh together again, go on holiday to some exotic location when you have a few spare dollars and have a rollicking time like a pair of teenagers, stuff like that?

Given where you are both are only 4 months out, I'm pretty sure you will actually.


----------



## bfree

Forest said:


> Had another couple of good talks yesterday afternoon. Mostly about how unsure how I am going to respond and behave the rest of my life. She says she understands, and will never reach a point where she can't stand it. As we are both very mature now, I don't feel this will change in here.
> 
> Like always, she was sorrowful, apologetic, and the pain shows on her face. Sad to say, but that (the pained expression) always makes me feel a little better. Is that weird, mean, or just because I know she understands.
> 
> She rarely asks this, but again asked if I thought I ever could forgive her. I told her I just don't know. In the past I've told her I know I'll never get completely over it, and can't predict the forgiveness part. That may be harsh, but its the truth.
> 
> As Marty Feldman observed while robbing a grave in Young Frankstein, "It could be worse - it could be raining."


Forest, I don't know if you like to read but the best book I ever read on forgiveness was _How Can I Forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To_ by Janis Spring. It really put things into perspective and was a fairly easy read.


----------



## Forest

Tall Average Guy said:


> Probably some combination. Mean because we should not want loved ones hurt, yet also gratifying that maybe she does get it, even if only a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Think about what forgiveness means to you and to a marriage. I encourage you to work toward forgiving her, regardless of what path you choose. It is not just (or even mostly) for her, but rather for you. Carrying around all that anger and hate can hurt you far more than it ever hurts her. So work to let that go.
> 
> Forgiveness does not mean you trust her or even want to stay married. But you do need to do so if you want to stay with her.


You really should have considered a career in therapy. Our M/C has so often pointed out that I am hurting myself way more than anyone else. Its vexing, because in all other areas I am so logical.


----------



## convert

I hope your wife really understands that your true dday was just 4 months ago and for a lot of BS's it takes 2 to 5 years for R with a good spouse.
at least she seems to be ok with this.


----------



## bfree

Forest said:


> You really should have considered a career in therapy. Our M/C has so often pointed out that I am hurting myself way more than anyone else. *Its vexing, because in all other areas I am so logical.*


Yeah, that logic stuff goes right out the window when dealing with something like this. It burns you to the very core.


----------



## 86857

Slight threadjack.
I just had a random thought.
I was picturing our little blue planet whirring around in the universe as it has always done and always will. 
And then I pictured all of us BS dotted all around it, sweat of our brow, furiously typing away on our laptops chatting to each other, chewing the fat. 
I dunno - it was strange and funny and. . . well reassuring too. . . 

Night all.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Forest said:


> You really should have considered a career in therapy. Our M/C has so often pointed out that I am hurting myself way more than anyone else. Its vexing, because in all other areas I am so logical.


My personal theory is that those of us who are most logical have the hardest time with our emotions when they flare up. So it is difficult to understand and get a handle on them.

You sound like you have a good M/C. I think the advice to take things slow and let your emotions settle is a good one. My sense is that you want to stay but feel like you are not suppose to. Your challenge is to figure out if that feeling is merely an automatic reaction or is that you really can't live with her based on what she did. It sounds like your wife is doing what she can and that you are making some progress, so I see no harm in continuing. Reevaluate in a couple months to see if you are moving forward in a way you like.


----------



## sammy3

sammy3 said:


> Just the other day, I was talking with my gf who's common-law husband left her for the pregnant ow after 20 + years together. And this is what she said to me. "I was raped when I was younger, and what my husband did to me was far worst, as at least I didn't know my assailant." I kid you not.
> 
> -sammy


She went on to explain, she never had to see rapist face, could put it behind her, there was no trust there, no relationship, no love... but this was her husband,((the assailant))who inflicted the assault, it was just too much, she raised his children, she built a life with him, she asked for nothing for 20+ yrs. in return but love, respect, honor, all that one gives, wants, and hopes for, but he left in a flash, the ow pregnant now, she lives now with all the misery that goes with the story... trying to move on... 

-sammy


----------



## tdwal

********** said:


> Slight threadjack.
> I just had a random thought.
> I was picturing our little blue planet whirring around in the universe as it has always done and always will.
> And then I pictured all of us BS dotted all around it, sweat of our brow, furiously typing away on our laptops chatting to each other, chewing the fat.
> I dunno - it was strange and funny and. . . well reassuring too. . .
> 
> Night all.



I think you are already asleep dreaming.😃


----------



## vellocet

theroad said:


> Incredulous is a WW saying 20 years after the affair on her D day to her BH is that I thought you were able to figure out that I banged the OM and that you did not bring it up because that was the way you wanted to handle me having an affair.


Oh what do we know? We are just a bunch of burned husbands banding together to pat each other on the back.:toast:


----------



## Forest

Tall Average Guy said:


> My personal theory is that those of us who are most logical have the hardest time with our emotions when they flare up. So it is difficult to understand and get a handle on them.
> 
> My sense is that you want to stay but feel like you are not suppose to. Your challenge is to figure out if that feeling is merely an automatic reaction or is that you really can't live with her based on what she did. It sounds like your wife is doing what she can and that you are making some progress...


Dadgum, you've hit on it again.

I very much feel like I should stay, but am not supposed to. Not supposed to let someone do me that way, get away with that, etc. Our M/C also pointed out part of the reason I dwell on all this may be that I want to make sure my wife hasn't forgotten the hurt, etc.


----------



## Graywolf2

Forest said:


> I very much feel like I should stay, but am not supposed to. Not supposed to let someone do me that way, get away with that, etc. Our M/C also pointed out part of the reason I dwell on all this may be that I want to make sure my wife hasn't forgotten the hurt, etc.


That is it exactly.

If you stay married you have two challenges.

1.	Men tend to think of their wives and mothers as special. You have to come to grips with the fact that your wife isn’t as special as you thought she was.

2.	You have to figure out a price she has to pay so you feel that she hasn’t “gotten away with that.”


----------



## Squeakr

Graywolf2 said:


> That is it exactly.
> 
> If you stay married you have two challenges.
> 
> 1.	Men tend to think of their wives and mothers as special. You have to come to grips with the fact that your wife isn’t as special as you thought she was.
> 
> 2.	You have to figure out a price she has to pay so you feel that she hasn’t “gotten away with that.”


You also have a third challenge, which is her accepting your proposals and agreeing that she had done wrong and committing to changing things (you need to change things that are bad as well).


----------



## bfree

Graywolf2 said:


> That is it exactly.
> 
> If you stay married you have two challenges.
> 
> 1.	*Men tend to think of their wives and mothers as special. You have to come to grips with the fact that your wife isn’t as special as you thought she was.*
> 
> 2.	You have to figure out a price she has to pay so you feel that she hasn’t “gotten away with that.”


Believe it or not this is actually very healthy. Women are not better or worse. They are just people. Putting them up on a pedestal is not fair since no one can live up to that lofty expectation. Each and every person is special in their own right. But no one is any more special than any other.


----------



## Graywolf2

Squeakr said:


> You also have a third challenge, which is her accepting your proposals and agreeing that she had done wrong and committing to changing things (you need to change things that are bad as well).


They have been faithful and had a good marriage for the last 20 years. What do they need to change? The OP needs to deal with recently finding out that his wife had a year long affair 20 years ago.


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## Squeakr

Graywolf2 said:


> They have been faithful and had a good marriage for the last 20 years. What do they need to change?


Every marriage has something that can be improved upon. The fact that infidelity happened and was hidden for years, no matter how long ago it occurred, shows that something was wrong in the marriage. Infidelity doesn't just happen for no reason. We are only getting one side of the story and just as with my marriage I would have said nothing was wrong, yet talk to my WW and the story will change drastically. If things are the same as they were during and after the infidelity occurred shows that nothing has changed and something must (even more so now that the very bonds are being questioned). Faithfulness without commitment really doesn't mean much. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin

Graywolf2 said:


> *They have been faithful and had a good marriage for the last 20 years*. What do they need to change? The OP needs to deal with recently finding out that his wife had a year long affair 20 years ago.


Surely the whole point and the whole problem he has is that that is not a guarantee is it

If after 20 years a transgression a severe as this becomes public then in terms of infidelity there is absolutely no guarantee she has been faithful in the rest of that time. None at all. Wishful thinking imo

That's the crux - infidelity is base upon a fundamental lack of respect from the guilty party. This was not a ONStand. It was ongoing in true cake eating style. Personally I would find it very difficult to believe she had been faithful for the next twenty years after that event when she had found it so easy to conceal it deny it and keep him at bay 

Like anybody I don't know for sure.........which tells you that he does not either


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## bfree

I feel like playing Devil's Advocate here for a minute. Let's say that Forest's wife did believe that Forest knew of her transgressions of 20 years ago. They both worked on the marriage, improved their relationship and she felt secure and happy that they stayed together. Maybe she was even a little proud that they were teetering on the brink but were able to come together and learn to love each other once again. She might even have felt extremely fortunate that her husband loved her so much that he was able to forgive her for such a terrible betrayal. I can imagine right now she is not only feeling pretty bad for the hurt that Forest is going through but maybe she is herself questioning the last 20 years when she thought they built something to be proud of only to learn that what she thought was in fact false. Just something to think about.


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## Squeakr

That's is entirely possible. Although highly unlikely and improbable, none the less it is possible. Since she avoided discussing it all these years and avoided ever owning up to it, I would suspect your theory is not probable in this case. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy

Squeakr said:


> That's is entirely possible. Although highly unlikely and improbable, none the less it is possible. Since she avoided discussing it all these years and avoided ever owning up to it, I would suspect your theory is not probable in this case.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never underestimate the ability of people to avoid raising uncomfortable issues. It is called rug sweeping and it is not some rare event. 

When was the last time you raised an issue about your own poor behavior in the past that had been addressed and forgiven? It is human nature to want to bury that crap.


----------



## Squeakr

Tall Average Guy said:


> Never underestimate the ability of people to avoid raising uncomfortable issues. It is called rug sweeping and it is not some rare event.
> 
> When was the last time you raised an issue about your own poor behavior in the past that had been addressed and forgiven? It is human nature to want to bury that crap.


I agree it is human nature. Of course this issue was never addressed and forgiven. It was only rug swept. The entire time it was denied to have happened so that is not the same as addressed and forgiven, as it was avoided. You can't forgive something that you know nothing about and are completely unaware of and purposely kept in the dark about. She drew upon his naivety and essentially put it back on him as he never was actually made aware of the full truth. I guess I am a rare case as I have no issues owning up to my faults and discussing them. I don't want to be always punished when I have been punished for them but have no problem discussing them and changes made because of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest

Squeakr said:


> Every marriage has something that can be improved upon. The fact that infidelity happened and was hidden for years, no matter how long ago it occurred, shows that something was wrong in the marriage. Infidelity doesn't just happen for no reason. We are only getting one side of the story and just as with my marriage I would have said nothing was wrong, yet talk to my WW and the story will change drastically. If things are the same as they were during and after the infidelity occurred shows that nothing has changed and something must (even more so now that the very bonds are being questioned). Faithfulness without commitment really doesn't mean much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I haven't really touched on it, but I have a ton of regret about my behavior during those days, also. If I had done certain things differently, it could prevented all this. Problem is, I truly felt my wife was being unnecessarily demanding and critical. If I tried to talk about it with her, she'd lose her temper, and really go nuts. Eventually I got tired and and gun-shy, and backed off. To her, this was "rejecting" her, which started the ball rolling.

Yeah, if I could go back, I think I could fix it. It would just mean worshipping the ground she walked on at all times. Kind of a "get over here and adore me, or else!"


----------



## Squeakr

Putting one on the pedestal would make nothing better either, as plenty of the KISA and Mr Nice Guys are on here already. I believe that Marriage needs to be a balance or responsibilities and power shared between the two. When both share equally then I think the best chances for survival exists. Otherwise you have one always seeking to have the better position and this hold more power in the union.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble

Forest said:


> Had another couple of good talks yesterday afternoon. Mostly about how unsure how I am going to respond and behave the rest of my life. She says she understands, and will never reach a point where she can't stand it. As we are both very mature now, I don't feel this will change in here.
> 
> Like always, she was sorrowful, apologetic, and the pain shows on her face. Sad to say, but that (the pained expression) always makes me feel a little better. Is that weird, mean, or just because I know she understands.
> 
> She rarely asks this, but again asked if I thought I ever could forgive her. I told her I just don't know. In the past I've told her I know I'll never get completely over it, and can't predict the forgiveness part. That may be harsh, but its the truth.
> 
> As Marty Feldman observed while robbing a grave in Young Frankstein, "It could be worse - it could be raining."


OP, my fWW didn't ever tell me the truth until I showed it to her in writing, her writing to OM about how much she loved him and their last times of intimacy. Which was about 2 weeks after she took my ring and gave herself to me (or so I thought). It took me only 18 months to find this out, and her response was she didn't tell me because she didn't want to hurt me. 

I can only imagine the feeling after 20 years. I could go two ways I suppose... walk out the door and never look back, or work it out. You love her, she apparently loves you, and it sounds like R may work. I'm trying that in my own relationship. However, it's fraught with two steps forward, one back. It takes a lot of focus on my part and remorse on hers, which we have. 

Good luck. It's tough and it sucks but it might be worth it in the long run. I found out a little over a year ago and am still sometimes on the fence whether I will for sure stay.


----------



## happyman64

Forest said:


> I haven't really touched on it, but I have a ton of regret about my behavior during those days, also. If I had done certain things differently, it could prevented all this. Problem is, I truly felt my wife was being unnecessarily demanding and critical. If I tried to talk about it with her, she'd lose her temper, and really go nuts. Eventually I got tired and and gun-shy, and backed off. To her, this was "rejecting" her, which started the ball rolling.
> 
> Yeah, if I could go back, I think I could fix it. It would just mean worshipping the ground she walked on at all times. Kind of a "get over here and adore me, or else!"


Forest,

From what I have read it seems the past twenty years has been good for both of you.

And now you get hit with this whammy. IMO opinion I think her honest answer just finally confirmed what you already knew all those years ago.

It is good that you both have this issue out in the open.

Sure, many a man/woman would just get up and walk away from their cheating spouse.

But I do not think in all cases that is the right thing to do.

SO I urge you to keep working through this with your wife. It sounds like you feel she is worth working it out with.

And may I remind you that she chose you all those years ago.

If you feel that she deserves forgiveness then tell her. But more importantly, show her that you forgive her.

And spend the next twenty years letting her know you chose her!

It takes two!

HM


----------



## Headspin

You see I think this is odd. Sorry but I do



Forest said:


> I haven't really touched on it, but I have a ton of regret about my behavior during those days, also. If I had done certain things differently, it could prevented all this.


So, okay, it was all your fault then? 



Forest said:


> Problem is, I truly felt my wife was being unnecessarily demanding and critical.


 But maybe you were right back then, maybe she was 



Forest said:


> If I tried to talk about it with her, she'd lose her temper, and really go nuts. Eventually I got tired and and gun-shy, and backed off. To her, this was "rejecting" her, which started the ball rolling.


Oh of course definitely your fault then



Forest said:


> Yeah, if I could go back, I think I could fix it. It would just mean worshipping the ground she walked on at all times. Kind of a "get over here and adore me, or else!"


And on that note you'd be completely wrong Forest. If she showed you little respect 20 years ago she'd sure as hell show you even less if you'd have been a complete doormat 

I find this uncomfortable reading tbh 

20 years ago she had a year long affair 
gaslighted you, 
trickle truthed you, 
absolutely stabbed you in the back and turned the knife 
lied to / deceived you for a further 20 years 
let you squirm in your own sh!t
rugswept the whole business

and eventually you find out 

*and you regret not being an even bigger doormat thinking somehow by being that you would have prevented it !!* :scratchhead:

Sorry to be harsh but I'm giving you some reality here and I'd advise you to read a lot more threads on TAM and really understand the dynamic about how infidelity works 

Your wife has never suffered any consequences and by virtue of that has got clean away with it. And because of that I'd be very surprised if there are no other skeletons in her cupboard. Cheats tend to stop only when their arses have been nailed 

I admire your temperament Forest, your reaction to all this is rare 

I wish you all the best in this


----------



## Forest

Headspin said:


> You see I think this is odd. Sorry but I do
> 
> 
> So, okay, it was all your fault then?
> 
> But maybe you were right back then, maybe she was
> 
> 
> Oh of course definitely your fault then
> 
> 
> And on that note you'd be completely wrong Forest. If she showed you little respect 20 years ago she'd sure as hell show you even less if you'd have been a complete doormat
> 
> I find this uncomfortable reading tbh
> 
> 20 years ago she had a year long affair
> gaslighted you,
> trickle truthed you,
> absolutely stabbed you in the back and turned the knife
> lied to / deceived you for a further 20 years
> let you squirm in your own sh!t
> rugswept the whole business
> 
> and eventually you find out
> 
> *and you regret not being an even bigger doormat thinking somehow by being that you would have prevented it !!* :scratchhead:
> 
> Sorry to be harsh but I'm giving you some reality here and I'd advise you to read a lot more threads on TAM and really understand the dynamic about how infidelity works
> 
> Your wife has never suffered any consequences and by virtue of that has got clean away with it. And because of that I'd be very surprised if there are no other skeletons in her cupboard. Cheats tend to stop only when their arses have been nailed
> 
> I admire your temperament Forest, your reaction to all this is rare
> 
> I wish you all the best in this





If its any consolation, my post you cited was intended to infer the exact opposite of your interpretation, thought it was obvious.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I very much feel like I should stay, but am not supposed to. Not supposed to let someone do me that way, get away with that, etc."

This is cognitive dissonance...and it is always something that is emotionally painful for those experiencing such a dilemma.

The brain is painfully torn in two directions...trying to reconcile two facts it cherishes and wants to believe in 100% that , unfortunately, prove to be completely irreconcilable.

The mind runs in a continuous and painful loop searching desperately for a solution to the issue/problem that simply does not exist...and the emotional pain of realizing this is tremendous.

Eventually (hopefully), one may achieve a place of acceptance that the dissonance will never be 'solved' and life can just continue while accepting both positions/views at once, despite their inherent contradictions.

But I think a person will always carry an emotional scar from this....a feeling that they have betrayed their own sense of self in some way.

I think a similar situation is the continuing love a parent would have for a child who committed a horrid and unforgivable crime.

The emotional pain is horrible and I think never truly goes away.


----------



## workindad

OP- sorry for the spot you are in.

It must be very tough to deal with a life time and marriage of lies especially when you seem so certain about knowing your wife and her character.

I mean no offense and am not trying to stir the pot, but I would seriously consider a new therapist. Find one that resolves what needs to be resolved- doesn't gloss over it.

Also, I would absolutely stunned if the "we always used condoms" was correct for an affair that went on for a year.

She was also worried about protecting OM from you according to one of your posts. That's why she didn't tell you at the time. Fear for what would happen to him by your hand.

So basically she fvcked some other dude for a year of your marriage, acted like an a$$ to you because she was busy balling some other guy, felt the urge to protect him from you, lied to your face for 20 years by commission and omission, but now she is being truthful... maybe.

It is your life and I truly wish you both the best. I hope you are getting the truth from her now.


----------



## Forest

workindad said:


> OP- sorry for the spot you are in.
> 
> It must be very tough to deal with a life time and marriage of lies especially when you seem so certain about knowing your wife and her character.
> 
> I mean no offense and am not trying to stir the pot, but I would seriously consider a new therapist. Find one that resolves what needs to be resolved- doesn't gloss over it.
> 
> Also, I would absolutely stunned if the "we always used condoms" was correct for an affair that went on for a year.
> 
> She was also worried about protecting OM from you according to one of your posts. That's why she didn't tell you at the time. Fear for what would happen to him by your hand.
> 
> So basically she fvcked some other dude for a year of your marriage, acted like an a$$ to you because she was busy balling some other guy, felt the urge to protect him from you, lied to your face for 20 years by commission and omission, but now she is being truthful... maybe.
> 
> It is your life and I truly wish you both the best. I hope you are getting the truth from her now.



What I'm absolutely stunned is that you can claim not to want to stir the pot, then go on to do nothing else. You to tell me (the only one familiar with any of this) that I've got it all wrong, and I should consider your ideas.

The therapist is fine, and I've elaborated on her on target advice. 

I've explained the damn condom thing till I'm blue in the face, and quite convinced, but you think you know better. 

You also know exactly what my wife did and didn't do, and crassly spell out her rutting techniques, then sign of with "wish the best."

For crying out loud. 

But, its the internet. What a dumb idea.


----------



## harrybrown

If your wife found out that you had an affair for a year, lied about it for 20 years, how would she feel?

Would she stay? So she made the OM feel wonderful for a year.

She used all that energy to cheat, lie and hide the affair from you.
What has she done to show you that you were always number one in her life? 

She has a very good brain to keep this up for a year. She should be able to come up with something marvelous for you. What has she done?


----------



## tom67

harrybrown said:


> If your wife found out that you had an affair for a year, lied about it for 20 years, how would she feel?
> 
> Would she stay? So she made the OM feel wonderful for a year.
> 
> She used all that energy to cheat, lie and hide the affair from you.
> What has she done to show you that you were always number one in her life?
> 
> She has a very good brain to keep this up for a year. She should be able to come up with something marvelous for you. What has she done?


:iagree::iagree:
Just think about it he makes valid points.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Forest

*For what ever it is worth to you I think that and your wife have a much better chance than a 50/50 to bring your marriage back to an satisfactory level.* Furthermore, your wife is truly remorseful, begging for forgiveness, she is the mother of your children, and you seem to be a strong man and are gaining at just 4 months!



If this TAM forum gets to where we are putting doubt into your head, bring up issues that pour gas on your emotional fire, and trigger your anger against your wife then take a break from Tam or leave all together. You do not even have a year into R and I think you are doing real well. You will still need as much support as you can get but unless TAM is more positive than negative for you; *well if they are too negative then you can tell TAM to kiss your AZZ*! The condum thing is just one example of unnessary questions that have already been beat to death and provides no help.



Sometimes you get posters on here that have so much hate and resentment that they want to see the BS just keep kicking the shyt out of the WS. It is obvious to me that your wife is truly remorseful, is trying to make up for her damage and your reactions will either help her a lot or hurt her a lot. In addition, and maybe more importantly, it will either help you or hurt you a lot. *There will be enough times that you will have to fight off putting your wife down and bring up all the disgusting self esteem damage that she did to herself; to you and your family, you do not need other people that do not know your wife and situation as good as you do to put crap into your mind and emotions that do no good a all.*


You are thinking very clearly for being in the first 5 months. In the first five months I lost 25 pounds and could not remember what I had for lunch.

Take whatever helps you and your wife and ignore the rest!


----------



## sidney2718

Forest said:


> Had another couple of good talks yesterday afternoon. Mostly about how unsure how I am going to respond and behave the rest of my life. She says she understands, and will never reach a point where she can't stand it. As we are both very mature now, I don't feel this will change in here.
> 
> Like always, she was sorrowful, apologetic, and the pain shows on her face. Sad to say, but that (the pained expression) always makes me feel a little better. Is that weird, mean, or just because I know she understands.
> 
> She rarely asks this, but again asked if I thought I ever could forgive her. I told her I just don't know. In the past I've told her I know I'll never get completely over it, and can't predict the forgiveness part. That may be harsh, but its the truth.
> 
> As Marty Feldman observed while robbing a grave in Young Frankstein, "It could be worse - it could be raining."


Hang in there Forest. Every conversation of this sort helps. You have to know what she's feeling and she has to know what you are feeling.

If you reconcile, remember that that would not be a continuation of your old marriage. That's gone forever. It would be a kind of new marriage with renewed expectations and a greater understanding of how you and she can both hurt the one you love. And in a way thinking of it as a sort of new marriage can make it easier. It isn't that the old hurts will never be discussed, but it will be that those things happened in the old marriage and that the two of you have now decided to try to move forward in a new one.

Good luck fella!


----------



## cpacan

To be honest; I'm getting confused as to what you want from this. You ask in your OP if you forever will think about you wife as someone who cheated. 

When posters suggest that the MC you attend is wrong by rugsweeping it by use of the "scabs-analogy", you get angry and say that the therapist is all OK.

When posters suggest, that 20 years of silence from your wife says something about her ability to compartmentalize and that your gut feeling may get disturbed by this, you simply tell us in short terms that she claims that she thought you knew, which is a valid excuse in your book.

I don't know what else to tell you than refer to your OP, and say that you will have this memory for life, it will be less painfull with the years, and you'll survive. With help from your MC, you may even be able to stomack it and forget it at a faster pace than most other BS, it worked for 20 years, it seems.

My very best advice if you have any troubles on the way is to use a little mindfullness and present moment thinking. Forget the past, forget the future, none of them are here now, enjoy the present moment in which your wife seems to be loving and caring.


----------



## Squeakr

Forest said:


> What I'm absolutely stunned is that you can claim not to want to stir the pot, then go on to do nothing else. You to tell me (the only one familiar with any of this) that I've got it all wrong, and I should consider your ideas.
> 
> The therapist is fine, and I've elaborated on her on target advice.
> 
> I've explained the damn condom thing till I'm blue in the face, and quite convinced, but you think you know better.
> 
> You also know exactly what my wife did and didn't do, and crassly spell out her rutting techniques, then sign of with "wish the best."
> 
> For crying out loud.
> 
> But, its the internet. What a dumb idea.


Yes, it is the internet so your get what you paid for. 

Unfortunately, sometimes you need to have the devil's advocate to open your mind to other possibilities that may have never even entered your thoughts. The reason that the protection question keeps coming up, is that several of us (my marriage included) that were always very careful about the protection and thoughts of pregnancy, found out that the same courtesies weren't taken when our WW's were in their A's. My WW never required protection, and when I asked her about it, she point blank stated that she never even thought about it, disease, pregnancy, or otherwise never entered her mind (even though they planned everything to a tee and she had to drive hours to meet him, all the way never even thinking about any of the consequences or possible side effects of the sex). To say it was a shock and low blow to me was an understatement. I was always required those things, but never him. She was even surprised by my reaction and her lack of control in that department by never requiring protection (she said the thought never even entered her mind, REALLY, WTF???? They really don't think about it when they are doing it!!) :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratch head:

People are just offering up things that you might not have thought of or considered, as none of us did either when we first discovered.

Sorry if the statements bothered you, but they can be shocking when revealed and show a side of our Spouses that we never thought possible.


----------



## Forest

harrybrown said:


> If your wife found out that you had an affair for a year, lied about it for 20 years, how would she feel?
> 
> Would she stay? So she made the OM feel wonderful for a year.
> 
> She used all that energy to cheat, lie and hide the affair from you.
> What has she done to show you that you were always number one in her life?
> 
> She has a very good brain to keep this up for a year. She should be able to come up with something marvelous for you. What has she done?


I may have to consider Mrs Adams advice about backing off. Obviously, I'm getting a little irritable, which is not right. (WorkinDad- Sorry. That was too harsh and rash. At the time I felt it had to be said. Would delete, but that would be dodging.) But I thought this should be addressed, as most seem to have a skewed opinion in this area.

If I'd done this, my wife would say, "Look, I'd already suspected this, all I want to know is that you ended it, have been faithful to me since, won't do it again, and love me right now. After this, I don't want to think about it again." That's how she operates.

Since this affair ended, my wife has undergone somewhat of a conversion. She has changed in nearly every way. Much different person, and I have no doubts about her faithfulness, devotion and all that crap, whether you choose to believe or not.

Now, since DDay, she has been on a mission to please me in every way possible. Kisses, hugs, "I love you" "I'm sorry" "I wish I could change it" statements several times a day. Special dinners, gobs of attention, you name it.

Basically, if I decided I wanted every day to be Steak and BJ Day (look it up, March 25) she'd spend every day grilling and bobbing.

So there.


----------



## Graywolf2

Forest said:


> Since this affair ended, my wife has undergone somewhat of a conversion. She has changed in nearly every way. Much different person, and I have no doubts about her faithfulness, devotion and all that crap, whether you choose to believe or not.
> 
> Now, since DDay, she has been on a mission to please me in every way possible. Kisses, hugs, "I love you" "I'm sorry" "I wish I could change it" statements several times a day. Special dinners, gobs of attention, you name it.
> 
> Basically, if I decided I wanted every day to be Steak and BJ Day (look it up, March 25) she'd spend every day grilling and bobbing.


A year is a high price to pay but you received something very good for it. Maybe that will give you some peace.

If I rubbed a magic lamp and the genie offed me a deal: My wife will act like yours does today but the cost will be that she will have magically had an affair 20 years ago.

I would have to think about that deal. I love steak


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Squeakr said:


> I agree it is human nature. Of course this issue was never addressed and forgiven. It was only rug swept. The entire time it was denied to have happened so that is not the same as addressed and forgiven, as it was avoided. You can't forgive something that you know nothing about and are completely unaware of and purposely kept in the dark about. She drew upon his naivety and essentially put it back on him as he never was actually made aware of the full truth. I guess I am a rare case as I have no issues owning up to my faults and discussing them. I don't want to be always punished when I have been punished for them but have no problem discussing them and changes made because of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps, but that is a different point. I was merely noting that someone not bringing up a situation where they behaved badly is not evidence of anything beyond the human tendency to not want to focus on bad crap that they did.


----------



## bfree

Forest said:


> I may have to consider Mrs Adams advice about backing off. Obviously, I'm getting a little irritable, which is not right. (WorkinDad- Sorry. That was too harsh and rash. At the time I felt it had to be said. Would delete, but that would be dodging.) But I thought this should be addressed, as most seem to have a skewed opinion in this area.
> 
> If I'd done this, my wife would say, "Look, I'd already suspected this, all I want to know is that you ended it, have been faithful to me since, won't do it again, and love me right now. After this, I don't want to think about it again." That's how she operates.
> 
> Since this affair ended, my wife has undergone somewhat of a conversion. She has changed in nearly every way. Much different person, and I have no doubts about her faithfulness, devotion and all that crap, whether you choose to believe or not.
> 
> Now, since DDay, she has been on a mission to please me in every way possible. Kisses, hugs, "I love you" "I'm sorry" "I wish I could change it" statements several times a day. Special dinners, gobs of attention, you name it.
> 
> Basically, if I decided I wanted every day to be Steak and BJ Day (look it up, March 25) she'd spend every day grilling and bobbing.
> 
> So there.


And this is what I was saying. Your wife very well may have believed that you knew and forgave her 20 years ago. For her part she probably believed that these last 20 years were all about the hard work you both put in to rebuild your relationship. For the past two decades she was more than likely proud of the fact that you both stared into the abyss and never fell off the edge. Now she is faced with the truth, that you truly didn't know and in fact never forgave her. Like you she is probably questioning the last 20 years and praying that it wasn't all just a lie. Forest, she's probably hurting just as much as you right now.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Dyokemm said:


> The brain is painfully torn in two directions...trying to reconcile two facts it cherishes and wants to believe in 100% that , unfortunately, prove to be completely irreconcilable.


On a tangent, the human brain really, really hates uncertainty. It has been trained over the years to make decisions. To the point that it makes up stuff to resolve data that otherwise would not make sense. Check out the show Brain Games, or google McGurk effect to see it in action.

I am convinced that much of Forest's pain is reconciling these competing positions.


----------



## ConanHub

Forest said:


> I may have to consider Mrs Adams advice about backing off. Obviously, I'm getting a little irritable, which is not right. But I thought this should be addressed, as most seem to have a skewed opinion in this area.
> 
> If I'd done this, my wife would say, "Look, I'd already suspected this, all I want to know is that you ended it, have been faithful to me since, won't do it again, and love me right now. After this, I don't want to think about it again." That's how she operates.
> 
> Since this affair ended, my wife has undergone somewhat of a conversion. She has changed in nearly every way. Much different person, and I have no doubts about her faithfulness, devotion and all that crap, whether you choose to believe or not.
> 
> Now, since DDay, she has been on a mission to please me in every way possible. Kisses, hugs, "I love you" "I'm sorry" "I wish I could change it" statements several times a day. Special dinners, gobs of attention, you name it.
> 
> Basically, if I decided I wanted every day to be Steak and BJ Day (look it up, March 25) she'd spend every day grilling and bobbing.
> 
> So there.


Then problem solved partner. A lot of people posting have quite a lot of experience with infidelity and were sharing their collective knowledge.

No harm done. You don't like some of it, no big deal. But you reached out as someone in pain and that got a response from many of us.

If you are fine with your situation as is then great. Many, including myself, wouldn't be but I didn't marry your wife. Maybe you are better wired to put up with her sh!t as well as reap her goodness as well.

Sounds like the payoff outweighs the previous b!tchiness and cheating for you.

If all you wanted to know was if you will always think of her as a wife that cheated, well from everything I've read, probably. It is a permanent scar, can't be undone or removed.
You have said you hold grudges.

A lot of my advice is geared towards not carrying a grudge. If someone wrongs me then some form of restitution is required. Once restitution is made to my satisfaction, I NEVER bring it up again.

I'm not into revenge but I need justice. So if you think your wife has made things right with you and/or is in the process, my advice is to simply work on yourself, take a little time away from your wife on occasion to examine yourself and improve.

If she has made things right, then the rest is all you. Do what you need to so your pain gets diminished or stops altogether.

Best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

Forest said:


> Basically, if I decided I wanted every day to be Steak and BJ Day (look it up, March 25) she'd spend every day grilling and bobbing.
> 
> So there.


It is March 14th, not the 25th (it was devised as the man's Valentines Day, hence the 14th, exactly one month after Valentine's Day, since men always complained that Valentine's Day really wasn't for them but mainly for the women, as that is how it really is/ was marketed so this is to meet the man's need of Valentine's Day).


----------



## doubletrouble

Dyokemm said:


> "I very much feel like I should stay, but am not supposed to. Not supposed to let someone do me that way, get away with that, etc."
> 
> This is cognitive dissonance...and it is always something that is emotionally painful for those experiencing such a dilemma.
> 
> The brain is painfully torn in two directions...trying to reconcile two facts it cherishes and wants to believe in 100% that , unfortunately, prove to be completely irreconcilable.
> 
> The mind runs in a continuous and painful loop searching desperately for a solution to the issue/problem that simply does not exist...and the emotional pain of realizing this is tremendous.
> 
> Eventually (hopefully), one may achieve a place of acceptance that the dissonance will never be 'solved' and life can just continue while accepting both positions/views at once, despite their inherent contradictions.
> 
> But I think a person will always carry an emotional scar from this....a feeling that they have betrayed their own sense of self in some way.
> 
> I think a similar situation is the continuing love a parent would have for a child who committed a horrid and unforgivable crime.
> 
> The emotional pain is horrible and I think never truly goes away.


QFT. This is a very good, thoughtful, dare I say educated post.

*To answer your title question, you will always know she cheated on you. You do not always have to think of her as a cheater. *

If I were to parse the exact way you wrote your title question into a psychologically driven choice of words, "my wife _that _cheated" is not the same thought process as "my wife _who _cheated." 

"That" can imply you think of her as someone else who, back then, cheated. An object. "Who" implies you think this person, with you today, is a cheater. A person. Subtle, but worth examining. 

And it supports my answer to your question, incidentally, although it was not part of my initial thought process. My process is based on my own experience with a cheating wife.


----------



## 86857

Yes Forest, you'll get just about every opinion there is on TAM. Well then again every opinion from the point of view of a BS. Which will be very biased. Trouble is it would be hard getting an opinion from someone who hadn't been betrayed because they wouldn't know what they were talking about. 

Being only 4 months out (will I ever stop mentioning that ) you'll be still churning it around in your head. The benefit of TAM IMO is that it is a good place to workshop the damn thing with others instead of all the workshopping going on inside your own head. And all those posts, some with perspectives you hadn't thought of, can help to get clarity. . . or as close to clarity as a BS can get. 

Some want you leave.
Some want you to stay. 

You've decided to stay - for now. Not a bad choice IMO. She's being very sweet, sounds as if you are being spoilt heh! heh! But it also sounds as if she has calmed down temperament-wise after all this - which has to be a good thing, yes? I'm presuming it is. Incidentally, did you ever work out why she was a demanding, hot-headed princess back then? At least that's what it sounds like. Has she ever explained to you why? What was bothering her exactly? Just curious. No matter. She's surely not like that now and I'm assuming she won't be again. 

To me it's like this. It's a question of whether you can manage to put the demons down the back seat of the bus. You meanwhile are up the front of the bus, in the driver's seat, looking at the road ahead & the nice landscape LOL. You only occasionally notice the demons when you glance in the rear view mirror. Of course they will always be on the bus, but so long as they don't move up towards the front of the bus, or so long as a Princess doesn't get on board, you will probably be fine. 

Ultimately I guess it's a question of whether you want to grow old with WS, or with someone else.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

********** said:


> You've decided to stay - for now. Not a bad choice IMO. She's being very sweet, sounds as if you are being spoilt heh! heh! But it also sounds as if she has calmed down temperament-wise after all this - which has to be a good thing, yes? I'm presuming it is. Incidentally, did you ever work out why she was a demanding, hot-headed princess back then? At least that's what it sounds like. Has she ever explained to you why? What was bothering her exactly? Just curious. No matter. She's surely not like that now and I'm assuming she won't be again.


Forest - My understanding, based on your posts, is that even when your wife was denying 20 years ago, your gut was telling you otherwise. However, you did not listen to your gut then, so here you are. 

If this is correct, another thing that may help you is to look back at the time since the affair and think about what your gut was telling you then. Did you have any red flags since? Has she acted at any other point like she did while in the affair? What has your gut told you over these last 20 years?


----------



## Forest

Squeakr said:


> It is March 14th, not the 25th (it was devised as the man's Valentines Day, hence the 14th, exactly one month after Valentine's Day, since men always complained that Valentine's Day really wasn't for them but mainly for the women, as that is how it really is/ was marketed so this is to meet the man's need of Valentine's Day).


Absolutely right. Don't know how the 25th got in there. More brain mush.


----------



## Forest

Tall Average Guy said:


> Forest - My understanding, based on your posts, is that even when your wife was denying 20 years ago, your gut was telling you otherwise. However, you did not listen to your gut then, so here you are.
> 
> If this is correct, another thing that may help you is to look back at the time since the affair and think about what your gut was telling you then. Did you have any red flags since? Has she acted at any other point like she did while in the affair? What has your gut told you over these last 20 years?


Basically for the last 20 years my gut has told me that she came to realize (20 years ago) that she was behaving horribly and selfishly, and needed to change. Since then she's turned over the new leaf, hates to think of that era, and wants to concentrate on the here and now.

Sounds fine, but my subconscious won't let me stop fixating on things that happened so long ago, were so wrong, and kept from me. The deception is horrible, but for me, the actions even worse.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Forest said:


> Basically for the last 20 years my gut has told me that she came to realize (20 years ago) that she was behaving horribly and selfishly, and needed to change. Since then she's turned over the new leaf, hates to think of that era, and wants to concentrate on the here and now.


So nothing that triggered you to think she was back in her bad behavior? That the last 20 years have been real in that you have no reason to think she stepped out again and your gut is telling you that she was faithful.

That is helpful to know.



> Sounds fine, but my subconscious won't let me stop fixating on things that happened so long ago, were so wrong, and kept from me. The deception is horrible, but for me, the actions even worse.


Understood. Certainly a normal reaction and one that will take time to work through. 

My advice is to stay the course and continue that work. Re-evaluate periodically to ensure that you are making progress, your wife remains remorseful and you want to stay married. You can change your mind, but my sense is that what you are doing now is healthy for you.


----------



## Squeakr

Forest said:


> Basically for the last 20 years my gut has told me that she came to realize (20 years ago) that she was behaving horribly and selfishly, and needed to change. Since then she's turned over the new leaf, hates to think of that era, and wants to concentrate on the here and now.
> 
> Sounds fine, but my subconscious won't let me stop fixating on things that happened so long ago, were so wrong, and kept from me. The deception is horrible, but for me, the actions even worse.


Unfortunately until everything is out in the opened, discussed, and worked through by you to your satisfaction (and if need be, consequences delved out, this is something you will have to decide about you needing or not), then it is going to be something that eats at you for quite sometime, possibly forever.

It is easy for the cheater to compartmentalize and work through things as they have all 1000 pieces to the puzzle and not the 400 you have and are trying to complete the same puzzle. It is also much easier for her as she has "accepted" that you knew and were fine with things so she has moved on long ago. It makes everything that much better as she suffered no consequences other than those self imposed. It is like asking your child what they think their punishment should be for a deed they committed. It will usually be the most basic and least restrictive and quickest punishment available.


----------



## sidney2718

Squeakr said:


> Unfortunately, sometimes you need to have the devil's advocate to open your mind to other possibilities that may have never even entered your thoughts. The reason that the protection question keeps coming up, is that several of us (my marriage included) that were always very careful about the protection and thoughts of pregnancy, found out that the same courtesies weren't taken when our WW's were in their A's. My WW never required protection, and when I asked her about it, she point blank stated that she never even thought about it, disease, pregnancy, or otherwise never entered her mind (even though they planned everything to a tee and she had to drive hours to meet him, all the way never even thinking about any of the consequences or possible side effects of the sex). To say it was a shock and low blow to me was an understatement. I was always required those things, but never him. She was even surprised by my reaction and her lack of control in that department by never requiring protection (she said the thought never even entered her mind, REALLY, WTF???? They really don't think about it when they are doing it!!) :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratch head:
> 
> People are just offering up things that you might not have thought of or considered, as none of us did either when we first discovered.
> 
> Sorry if the statements bothered you, but they can be shocking when revealed and show a side of our Spouses that we never thought possible.


I loved your story! I think the explanation is clear. When she was with you there was always the question of having children, when to have them, etc. With the OM there was never any thought given to having children. That is not what 98 percent of affairs are about.


----------



## larry.gray

Forest said:


> Absolutely right. Don't know how the 25th got in there. More brain mush.


One row over on the 10 key.


----------



## Forest

Squeakr said:


> It is like asking your child what they think their punishment should be for a deed they committed. It will usually be the most basic and least restrictive and quickest punishment available.



At some point we actually talked about punishment. I think she brought it up. My response was that she should be sent to a work camp in Siberia, and stay there until I wanted her to come home. One of those perfect ideas that sounds so outlandish you can always claim to be joking, but both parties really know different. She said she'd be willing. With a straight face, too. 

I've sure felt like she's gotten off too easy many times. Then I think about the times I've exploded at her and ranted like a madman, or grilled her until she's crying uncontrollably. There have been a few times that she is so distraught I just can't stand it, and feel like I've pushed things too far. 

Even in this situation, I think I should at least try to maintain some of that dignity and honor I'm always talking about; and saying she was lacking.


----------



## Headspin

I think you should understand something really important here 

And so should the other people crying about you needing to leave so your feelings do not get hurt 

Every opinion on her IS VALID be it negative or positive 

Here's a simple fact for everybody - if everyone said "YES" to everything - where would we be ? 

Answer - In some non reality place thinking we were God and life was all sweet 

That's rule one - you need to experience see hear the 'bad' to know what the 'good' is 

You learn to be good when your parents let you know what you've done is bad and we develop a sense of what is good and right to deal with experiences that we judge to be bad and wrong 

You need both sides of everything - we ALL do 

Personally I've learned about what is right in my world, my behavior, my choices in my life when I have done wrong and other more wise people have put me 'right' about a few things 

People who insist you only need to hear what you want to hear are talking absolute codswallop

Listen to all sides even if it grates because I for one can guarantee you'll learn a thing or two more from those people than the 'yesmen'

Keep an open mind Forest


----------



## JCD

WorkingOnMe said:


> I would say that, for me, she would be tainted forever. Did they use condoms? Did she do it in your marital bed?


Why do you want to know something like that? It's plain creepy! Why not ask if she was serving him up creampies every time as well? It is just as hurtful and prurient.


----------



## theroad

Forest said:


> At some point we actually talked about punishment. I think she brought it up. My response was that she should be sent to a work camp in Siberia, and stay there until I wanted her to come home. One of those perfect ideas that sounds so outlandish you can always claim to be joking, but both parties really know different. She said she'd be willing. With a straight face, too.
> 
> I've sure felt like she's gotten off too easy many times. Then I think about the times I've exploded at her and ranted like a madman, or grilled her until she's crying uncontrollably. There have been a few times that she is so distraught I just can't stand it, and feel like I've pushed things too far.
> 
> Even in this situation, I think I should at least try to maintain some of that dignity and honor I'm always talking about; and saying she was lacking.


I support your need to have your questions answered.

Though you have to stay calm and not react. WW need to feel safe when they answer their BH. If they get attacked that makes them want to still hide info.

Everytime she gets punished for telling a new detail she will instinctively fight giving all the truth.


----------



## JCD

theroad said:


> Incredulous is a WW saying 20 years after the affair on her D day to her BH is that I thought you were able to figure out that I banged the OM and that you did not bring it up because that was the way you wanted to handle me having an affair.


Larry Gray is correct. Your style of always bolding your words in a huge off color font actually makes me LESS inclined to read them, not more.

But it's your post.


----------



## JCD

Headspin said:


> and eventually you find out


:nono: Sorry, you don't get to pull this.

He did NOT 'just find out'. You make it sound like he found a 20 year old love letter.

He ASKED his wife and she felt SECURE enough in their relationship and her actions of the past TWENTY YEARS to actually TELL HIM the truth.

Yes, her take on things is total BS, but just like I can't tell Forest to just 'not feel that way', we don't get to tell the wife what she believed wasn't true. She was in self denial, but there it is.

So a touch of credit is due here to her.

****

Forest, here is what I would suggest.

Live day to day. Eat, sleep, work. If you get a mental image, go chop some wood. You can imagine POS's face there while you chop, which is healthier than getting onto that. Find SOMETHING to do when you start to obsess about this. Something that takes a lot of painstaking details.

As far as the wife goes. This is still fresh for you. Communicate once a day at least. If you start to get upset or she does, walk away but REVISIT THAT ISSUE LATER. Otherwise it is rug sweeping.

If you need to, treat the wife as a room mate or a live in maid for a while. Do not seek intimacy nor offer any. Your motives to do so are suspect and her motives are CERTAINLY suspect. You will think she is trying to buy you off with cheap emotions...and that can't be good.

Do not cut her totally off though. In the talks let her know you are just seeking a balance in your mind.

She is not a hateful person. She did a hateful thing. Remember that. If you are going to always remember that one horrible thing she did, you must also weigh the good things she's done for you as well. Make sure you look at her as a WHOLE person, not just the one rolling around in that motel bed. 

It is simple, but it is not easy.


----------



## warlock07

Forest said:


> At some point we actually talked about punishment. I think she brought it up. My response was that she should be sent to a work camp in Siberia, and stay there until I wanted her to come home. One of those perfect ideas that sounds so outlandish you can always claim to be joking, but both parties really know different. She said she'd be willing. With a straight face, too.
> 
> I've sure felt like she's gotten off too easy many times. Then I think about the times I've exploded at her and ranted like a madman, or grilled her until she's crying uncontrollably. There have been a few times that she is so distraught I just can't stand it, and feel like I've pushed things too far.
> 
> Even in this situation, I think I should at least try to maintain some of that dignity and honor I'm always talking about; and saying she was lacking.


Yep, her affair shouldn't be something that you make you feel entitled to do things that you would usually not get away with. You will always know when you cross the line.


What do you grill her about ?


----------



## Headspin

JCD said:


> :nono: *Sorry, you don't get to pull this.*
> 
> He did NOT 'just find out'. You make it sound like he found a 20 year old love letter.
> 
> He ASKED his wife and she felt SECURE enough in their relationship and her actions of the past TWENTY YEARS to actually TELL HIM the truth.
> 
> Yes, her take on things is total BS, but just like I can't tell Forest to just 'not feel that way', we don't get to tell the wife what she believed wasn't true. She was in self denial, but there it is.
> 
> So a touch of credit is due here to her.



Er.... yes I do, I do get to pull this - this is the ultimate in cake eating 

I've done this appalling sh!t for a whole year (20yrs ago)

You know I've done it but I'll trickle truth you and gaslight you anyway

You still know I've done this, but I'll deny and deny (showing about as zero respect for him as it gets)

And now I'll own up (in the hope you won't see it a being as shockingly bad, as it actually was, AND STILL IS

_'her take on things is totally BS'_

And that is the problem - you and sadly Forest glossing over that extremely pertinent fact 

"Credit to her" .............:scratchhead:

Oh yeah, of course


----------



## doubletrouble

It took my fWW two months to admit to her affair. I didn't confront her directly (at first); I wanted her to tell me. To admit it. She gaslighted, redirected, lied... then finally broke down and confessed. That was only a year and a half after the last time she fvcked him. 

I can't imagine what a 20 year lie would feel like. 

Maybe time softens it. For some, that's OK. For me, it woulld be as fresh a wound as if it happened this morning.


----------



## JCD

Headspin said:


> Er.... yes I do, I do get to pull this - this is the ultimate in cake eating
> 
> I've done this appalling sh!t for a whole year (20yrs ago)
> 
> You know I've done it but I'll trickle truth you and gaslight you anyway
> 
> You still know I've done this, but I'll deny and deny (showing about as zero respect for him as it gets)
> 
> And now I'll own up (in the hope you won't see it a being as shockingly bad, as it actually was, AND STILL IS
> 
> _'her take on things is totally BS'_
> 
> And that is the problem - you and sadly Forest glossing over that extremely pertinent fact
> 
> "Credit to her" .............:scratchhead:
> 
> Oh yeah, of course



Obviously you are not understanding what I am saying.

This woman could have CONTINUED for another 20 years telling her husband NOTHING. She had, as you noted, 20 years of practice.

He could have stayed dumb and clueless and stupid and...happy? Perhaps. He said they had 20 good years after that.

So...the wife, who is a SKILLED LIAR as you admit, could have kept up the pretense. No problems for her. The issue had been dropped. Hubby's question could have been treated like every other request he made.

She took a very brave step: she came clean and risked her marriage for her husband's peace of mind. She might get divorced and she had to know she would fall HARD off that pedestal. The dating pool for a forty year old woman is much different from a 20 year old hottie. She had pretty much everything to lose here coming clean.

So yeah, credit where credit is due. It was the first 'right' thing she did about this affair for 20 years besides dropping that guy and changing jobs.

NOW the healing can begin.

Forest, remember that one step she made. It doesn't feel like she did you a favor, but honestly, she did.


----------



## Harken Banks

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't think this is something you can ever get over. Best you can hope for is to accept it and move forward. It will haunt you the rest of your days. Can you live with that?


That's right. And the pain will get worse, plateau when it can go no higher, then recede in lock step with your increasing ambivalence, though you may not notice or recognize the latter until later when you might ask yourself why it doesn't hurt so much anymore. Or you could just drink a lot, which is what I did.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Harken Banks said:


> Or you could just drink a lot, which is what I did.


Drink a lot, wake up with a hangover and horrifying memories. Drink again to forget them. It's a vicious cycle. Been there, done that. It's best to handle tragedy with your senses intact. Kick the bottle.


----------



## Forest

Harken Banks said:


> That's right. And the pain will get worse, plateau when it can go no higher, then recede in lock step with your increasing ambivalence, though you may not notice or recognize the latter until later when you might ask yourself why it doesn't hurt so much anymore. Or you could just drink a lot, which is what I did.


My current plan is ignoring idiots, lifting weights more, staying occupied, and yes, drinking a little more. I also plan constantly in my head on the right time and way to catch POS, and deliver a rebuttal. Got to plan well. Want to make sure to wear old clothes, etc as he strikes me as a dangerous involuntary urinator, prone to projectile weeping, menstruating, and vomiting under duress.


----------



## warlock07

> This woman could have CONTINUED for another 20 years telling her husband NOTHING. She had, as you noted, 20 years of practice.


She was probably caught off guard. (How she reacted when he asked would be a giveaway)

She still feels guilty about what happened.

She does not think Forest will leave her for something she did for 20 years.


----------



## Ripper

If OP decides to walk away, eventually he will be OK. If he stays, he will have to deal with this every time he looks at his spouse or thinks about the OM. 

My question is, does she bring enough to the table to counter balance the pain?


----------



## JCD

Ripper said:


> If OP decides to walk away, eventually he will be OK. If he stays, he will have to deal with this every time he looks at his spouse or thinks about the OM.
> 
> My question is, does she bring enough to the table to counter balance the pain?


Here is the deal: while he is dealing with the EMOTIONAL fall out of discovering the affair, if we buy into the fact she has been faithful all these subsequent years (sad that we are even questioning that, but she put that there) then one of the major questions a Betrayed Spouse has already been answered.

To wit: what will my life post affair with her look like?

Granted, he didn't know...but she did. And his life, according to him, wasn't so bad. And so he can see what the future looks like. It will look something like the past if he is able to give her a bit of hope at a decent future where she will not constantly be the worst person he knows (meet bad people, Forest. It will put things into perspective  )


----------



## Forest

Ripper said:


> If OP decides to walk away, eventually he will be OK. If he stays, he will have to deal with this every time he looks at his spouse or thinks about the OM.
> 
> My question is, does she bring enough to the table to counter balance the pain?


Exactly how I'd feel if I was looking at someone else's troubles. Logical, and clean.

But you can't discount the dull and mundane. History, habits, connection, even laziness and greed (not ripping up finances) come into the picture. Not the most noble or swashbuckling reasons, eh? At least I can analyze rationally.


----------



## bandit.45

I think you should invite your wife on here. 

If she wants to prove her contrition, she can prove it through exposing herself to the court of TAM opinion....make her run the gauntlet. See if her fine words have weight behind them.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Will I forever think of her as "my wife that cheated"?*



bandit.45 said:


> I think you should invite your wife on here.
> 
> If she wants to prove her contrition, she can prove it through exposing herself to the court of TAM opinion....make her run the gauntlet. See if her fine words have weight behind them.


That could be very cruel. You know how badly that can go.


----------



## sidney2718

Ripper said:


> If OP decides to walk away, eventually he will be OK. If he stays, he will have to deal with this every time he looks at his spouse or thinks about the OM.
> 
> My question is, does she bring enough to the table to counter balance the pain?


This isn't necessarily so. Some folks divorce and spend the rest of their lives sorry for what they threw away.


----------



## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> That could be very cruel. You know how badly that can go.


There are a very few spouses who can run that gauntlet.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> That could be very cruel. You know how badly that can go.


E1, Mrs. John Adams, CantSitStill, and Tears all came and made it through... If they can maybe she can. Maybe she can learn something to help her husband heal.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Will I forever think of her as "my wife that cheated"?*



bandit.45 said:


> E1, Mrs. John Adams, CantSitStill, and Tears all came and made it through... If they can maybe she can. Maybe she can learn something to help her husband heal.


Maybe. But each of those fWS that you mention also found some even tempered posters to encourage and validate them. TAM has changed quite a bit since then. Put it this way Bandit. You might just be the most reasonable and understanding regular poster here right now. Nuff said.


----------



## JCD

bandit.45 said:


> E1, Mrs. John Adams, CantSitStill, and Tears all came and made it through... If they can maybe she can. Maybe she can learn something to help her husband heal.


Yes they did. But how many more were just as dedicated to taking the trauma from their HUSBAND...but when we added the piling on that we are so fond of doing, they decided that they wouldn't or couldn't pay that high a price and we broke apart a chance at reconciliation?

There is only an audience of one this woman needs to satisfy and it is Forest. There are people here who could see a crying blubbering mess and would STILL say she isn't suffering enough and you know that is true.

So why cause so much added pain?


----------



## bandit.45

Just a suggestion.


----------



## theroad

JCD said:


> Larry Gray is correct. Your style of always bolding your words in a huge off color font actually makes me LESS inclined to read them, not more.
> 
> But it's your post.


A serif type face is more legible and so is going to size 4. However I do not bold.


----------



## LongWalk

Tears did not survive TAM. She left never to return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Tears did not survive TAM. She left never to return.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It seems to me that most of the forum sided with and supported tears. Intemperate voices were tamped down or silenced pretty quickly. But there wasn't anything for her to gain here as her husband wasn't interested staying married after the ONS. The more I think of it the more I think Bandit may be right that this could help Mrs Forest help Mr Forest through this with the advice of some of the seasoned voices here. Primarily the WSs who have been where she is and some of the really sound counselors who have already contributed here. Still, it's a bit unpredictable how that goes, especially if she feels she is in a position she has to defend herself.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Tall Average Guy said:


> Probably some combination. Mean because we should not want loved ones hurt, yet also gratifying that maybe she does get it, even if only a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Think about what forgiveness means to you and to a marriage. I encourage you to work toward forgiving her, regardless of what path you choose. It is not just (or even mostly) for her, but rather for you. Carrying around all that anger and hate can hurt you far more than it ever hurts her. So work to let that go.
> 
> Forgiveness does not mean you trust her or even want to stay married. But you do need to do so if you want to stay with her.


This is what forgiving is about. It is an act for yourself, it can heal you.


----------



## LongWalk

Yes, Tears won over sympathy. I wonder if winning over the hardcore TAMers gave her false hope. She might have been better off cutting her losses and moving on, but we'll never know unless she updates.

A 20-year-long relationship is nothing to toss out. Forest's wife may have felt that he sensed the affair and thus there was no need to drag it out in the open because that would have been explosive. She put off confession until he brought it up again.

The thought of her having sex with POSOM will not go away and yet his wife of 20-years is not that woman anymore. He is not that husband either. We change.

There are related threads that Forest might benefit from reading. The Spanish titled one, whose OP confessed an affair to her husband, is very current. He has left home and it is uncertain whether they will reconcile. She has taken the path that Forest's wife shirked. Could it be that not confessing immediately is the "right" move if "saving" the marriage is put above all else?


----------



## LongWalk

Obviously both genders had the idea of physical infidelity but men hate it even more. Biological instinct, it's beautiful.

The lies, gaslighting and blame shifting, they undermine our moral sense, intellect and will. Of course there is something naive in out faith, the idea that there someone who your can trust, the destruction of that is a real blow.

I read a line out of a history book about the Korean war. There was an least one POW declared killed in action. Three years later he shortly before he got home he learned his wife had remarried. This, too, is a kind of betrayal, not by the wife but by fate. I tried to Google the name of the officer, but could not find out what happened.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Obviously both genders had the idea of physical infidelity but men hate it even more. Biological instinct, it's beautiful.
> 
> The lies, gaslighting and blame shifting, they undermine our moral sense, intellect and will. Of course there is something naive in out faith, the idea that there someone who your can trust, the destruction of that is a real blow.
> 
> I read a line out of a history book about the Korean war. There was an least one POW declared killed in action. Three years later he shortly before he got home he learned his wife had remarried. This, too, is a kind of betrayal, not by the wife but by fate. I tried to Google the name of the officer, but could not find out what happened.


Odysseus came home wreaked unholy havoc upon the suitors and kept his wife.


----------



## LongWalk

His dog recognized him.


----------



## warlock07

TAM is neither logical or rational. Especially for a WS. You might get lucky and get some help. 

or 

....

...


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> TAM is neither logical or rational. Especially for a WS. You might get lucky and get some help.
> 
> or
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


:iagree:


----------



## sidney2718

JCD said:


> Yes they did. But how many more were just as dedicated to taking the trauma from their HUSBAND...but when we added the piling on that we are so fond of doing, they decided that they wouldn't or couldn't pay that high a price and we broke apart a chance at reconciliation?
> 
> There is only an audience of one this woman needs to satisfy and it is Forest. There are people here who could see a crying blubbering mess and would STILL say she isn't suffering enough and you know that is true.
> 
> So why cause so much added pain?


JCD, you are absolutely right. The person she has to deal with is her husband. 

I will say one thing that may get me into trouble here. As I've been complaining lately, I'm a bit older than most here. And I will say that in my life as time has gone on, hurts, pains, infidelities, and so on have lessened in pain. Some fairly quickly, others less so.

But I've never been in Forest's position so I can only imagine what he's going through. My personal feeling (which means little) is that this sounds like a marriage worth keeping.


----------



## sidney2718

LongWalk said:


> Yes, Tears won over sympathy. I wonder if winning over the hardcore TAMers gave her false hope. She might have been better off cutting her losses and moving on, but we'll never know unless she updates.
> 
> A 20-year-long relationship is nothing to toss out. Forest's wife may have felt that he sensed the affair and thus there was no need to drag it out in the open because that would have been explosive. She put off confession until he brought it up again.
> 
> The thought of her having sex with POSOM will not go away and yet his wife of 20-years is not that woman anymore. He is not that husband either. We change.
> 
> There are related threads that Forest might benefit from reading. The Spanish titled one, whose OP confessed an affair to her husband, is very current. He has left home and it is uncertain whether they will reconcile. She has taken the path that Forest's wife shirked. Could it be that not confessing immediately is the "right" move if "saving" the marriage is put above all else?


BINGO. As usual, you've nailed it. That thread and tears convinced me that coming clean on ancient history is very very risky. We here need to be very careful.


----------



## sidney2718

LongWalk said:


> His dog recognized him.


And his wife had remained faithful. It isn't clear that he did though...


----------



## larry.gray

theroad said:


> A serif type face is more legible and so is going to size 4. However I do not bold.


If people have trouble reading the regular size text on the forum, they will increase the size of ALL of the text. When you make your post larger, it stands out larger than all of the others. It comes off as yelling / obnoxious attention getter behavior.


----------



## jim123

LongWalk said:


> His dog recognized him.


Then died.


----------



## Harken Banks

sidney2718 said:


> And his wife had remained faithful. It isn't clear that he did though...


I thought fidelity had a different meaning in the context of that story.


----------



## allwillbewell

Having had both the experience of discovering FWH 's more recent long term affair and the revelation of a previously unknown affair from 20 years ago...I can state that it IS possible to move beyond both types of discoveries, rebuild the marriage, fall in love again and reconcile successfully enough to stay together. 

However...I do not believe I will ever forget that my H cheated and the pain that brought into my life. While I trust that he is not cheating now, I will always remain vigilant and do not expect to ever return to a level of trust that allowed me to be so in denial and complacent as I was before Ddays...I see that as a good thing.

The pain DOES recede. But only if BS works hard on not indulging in bitterness and self pity. Allowing the reformed WS back into your life and heart with a firm understanding of what is crossing the line and what constitutes a final deal breaker.

But I am an optimist. I would rather go forward with my FWS as a survivor than alone as a victim of his infidelity..each couple is unique in their situation and ability to redeem and overcome the horrible deeds one member perpetrated on the other...tasks BOTH must be fully dedicated to for the rest of their married life.


----------



## Forest

Well, thanks all. Things are still chugging along the same. Not bad. She's trying to keep me happy. I'll ocassionally admit I'm depressed, and trying to control the anger and revenge issues. The trick is convincing myself that what happened 20 years ago is OK to put in the past. My male ego just will not let me do it, though.

I also skimmed thru "Tears" thread. Reminds me of the "Best way to divorce my wife", as both husbands nipped the whole thing in the bud right away. Especially Tears husband. Makes me wonder what it would have been like to have discovered the affair 20 years ago when it happened. If the internet, this site and all the online dating stuff had all been available, who knows how differently I might have acted? But, none of that matters now.

I'd heard the same story about the Korean War POW. Found this, which is likely what we are thinking of. The bride was 14 when she married the soldier, just a week before he left for the army probably explains alot. Hope its OK to post links.

Aug. 28, 1953: The trouble a girl can get into | Yesterday's News | StarTribune.com


----------



## doubletrouble

Forest, I may have posted this before, but I know that had I known about my fWW's PA just after it happened, she could've written Tears' thread. Since she didn't tell me, and I found out a year and a half later, we're trying R. 

I sure as hell would've walked and never looked back, had I known about it when it happened. 

There have been times when I've wondered why I am trying to R, even now. But I do love her and she is remorseful -- she is doing all she can to assure me I am loved, am the man of her dreams, and she really fvcked up on that one. It will take time, but I do love her, so I hope this R works out OK. 

Your situation is somewhat similar, with a stretched-out timeframe. Your W is remorseful and trying to work this out with you. I wish you all the blessings and luck in this endeavor.


----------



## Forest

DoubleTrouble-

Thanks for that kind and thoughtful post. If you gotta be in the same boat with someone, that type of outlook and honesty helps. Likewise, I feel bad for you, the way only another "shipmate" can.

It is just such a dilemma with a spouse that is now remorseful and changed. Like a dent in new car. (even I'm getting tired of my desperate analogies.)

She came home today with a special birthday cake she ordered for me. Caused a long side trip for her, so I gave her a big hug for the occasion. She looked especially happy about this, and it was kinda like before DDay. An enjoyable moment. Afterward, I realized how much I missed being able to do things like that without picturing her cheating in my head.

What a waste.


----------



## happi_g_more2

Forest said:


> DoubleTrouble-
> 
> Thanks for that kind and thoughtful post. If you gotta be in the same boat with someone, that type of outlook and honesty helps. Likewise, I feel bad for you, the way only another "shipmate" can.
> 
> It is just such a dilemma with a spouse that is now remorseful and changed. Like a dent in new car. (even I'm getting tired of my desperate analogies.)
> 
> She came home today with a special birthday cake she ordered for me. Caused a long side trip for her, so I gave her a big hug for the occasion. She looked especially happy about this, and it was kinda like before DDay. An enjoyable moment. Afterward, I realized how much I missed being able to do things like that without picturing her cheating in my head.
> 
> What a waste.


I think we need to constantly remind ourselves that our actions have an irrevocable effect on our future. We must always live with what we have done and, at times, so do others. To answer your original question "will you forever think of her as your wife that cheated", sadly, the answer is yes. The only thing that you can do now is decide whether you can live with a wife that cheated on you. There is no question or answer that is simpler or more profound. If the answer is yes, then get on livin. If the answer is no, then get on finding the next future Mrs Forrest.


----------



## 2asdf2

Forest said:


> My current plan is ignoring idiots, lifting weights more, staying occupied, and yes, drinking a little more. I also plan constantly in my head on the right time and way to catch POS, and deliver a rebuttal. Got to plan well. Want to make sure to wear old clothes, etc as he strikes me as a dangerous involuntary urinator, prone to projectile weeping, menstruating, and vomiting under duress.


For some of the same reasons that now plague your thinking, I also had a thirty-five plus year delay in coming to grips with my WW's infidelity.

After this exceedingly long time, I had the opportunity to confront an OM.

By this time, he was 85 years old, with advanced Parkinson's disease, and needing help with ambulation, activities of daily living, and willing to admit to his role in my WW's infidelity. He died within nine months of our meeting.

Too bad... He was such a sight, that I could not deal with him as I might have when the affair was current. I would prefer to remember him as he was as a younger man: a fastidious dresser, a prestigious psychiatrist, and full of arrogance and cynicism. 

I say too bad, because remembering him as he was when younger would have enabled me to maintain a high level of hate, and concentrate my anger on him. As it is, instead of anger towards him, I felt pity for him. Yet, somehow, I feel that he got away from any retribution I might have been able to inflict and that -in a way- I have been cheated of that satisfaction.

In contrast to yours, my WW is unremorseful, and that spares me some of the agony that you are experiencing.

I guess, what I am driving at is that -just as your wife is not the same today as your wife of twenty years ago- you may find that the OM is not the same OM either. Would you be disappointed and frustrated if that were the case? Or would that thought help you to cope with your current obsession to deliver a rebuttal?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Forest
> She came home today with a special birthday cake she ordered for me. Caused a long side trip for her, so I gave her a big hug for the occasion. She looked especially happy about this, and it was kinda like before DDay. An enjoyable moment. Afterward, I realized how much I missed being able to do things like that without picturing her cheating in my head.
> 
> What a waste.



*Forest, you can do things like that without picturing her cheating in your head in the future*. It won’t happen in a matter of weeks but can get better every month. In the years to come it is possible that you almost never think of her cheating in your head.


----------



## Headspin

Mr Blunt said:


> *Forest, you can do things like that without picturing her cheating in your head in the future*. It won’t happen in a matter of weeks but can get better every month. In the years to come it is possible that you almost never think of her cheating in your head.


How?


----------



## LongWalk

There must be some spouses who cheated and were never caught but were extra nice to try and compensate. For sure some guy thought, wow, what luck, when he was getting the hottest and most tender bj out of the blue. It would be interesting to know how much extra niceness would be given before the WS figured they had made good?


----------



## Squeakr

LongWalk said:


> There must be some spouses who cheated and were never caught but were extra nice to try and compensate. For sure some guy thought, wow, what luck, when he was getting the hottest and most tender bj out of the blue. It would be interesting to know how much extra niceness would be given before the WS figured they had made good?


I don't think this would ever apply. The WS that could not own up to their actions generally have the innate ability to justify, compartmentalize, lock it away to forget about it, and move on. When they ended their A, they would just close that chapter in their life and move on, never revisiting it or thinking that they had done any harm as they would have never seen the hurt and pain in their BS's eyes and actions and thus never think they were doing anything wrong. They lacked the boundaries to see they had done wrong and would stay that course and those that did realize the wrong would rationalize that they were just evening the score for the years of wrongs that had been bestowed upon them by the BS and think all was even.


----------



## Graywolf2

LongWalk said:


> There must be some spouses who cheated and were never caught but were extra nice to try and compensate. For sure some guy thought, wow, what luck, when he was getting the hottest and most tender bj out of the blue. It would be interesting to know how much extra niceness would be given before the WS figured they had made good?





Squeakr said:


> The WS that could not own up to their actions generally have the innate ability to justify, compartmentalize, lock it away to forget about it, and move on. When they ended their A, they would just close that chapter in their life and move on, never revisiting it or thinking that they had done any harm as they would have never seen the hurt and pain in their BS's eyes and actions and thus never think they were doing anything wrong. They lacked the boundaries to see they had done wrong and would stay that course and those that did realize the wrong would rationalize that they were just evening the score for the years of wrongs that had been bestowed upon them by the BS and think all was even.



I can see individuals behaving either way depending on what kind of person they are. 

There are married people who have long term affairs with no intention of ever leaving their spouse. Their spouse provides 90% of what they need and the AP provides the other 10%. (That’s why the freak out if they’re caught. The 10% wasn’t worth losing the 90%).

In such a situation I can see the WS cutting their spouse some slack because they are having an affair. For example, the loyal spouse does something thoughtless. The WS will be less mad because they are having an affair.


----------



## Squeakr

Graywolf2 said:


> In such a situation I can see the WS cutting their spouse some slack because they are having an affair. For example, the loyal spouse does something thoughtless. The WS will be less mad because they are having an affair.


I see your point, but according to my WW, after she was caught, she had no intention of stopping the A's. She felt justified and that she was doing nothing wrong as she had already moved on in her mind (the way she was dealing with it) and owed me nothing due to the years of abuse I had provided her (none of which is true and can be verified by several objective 3rd parties that things she claimed in actuality never happened). 

The WS has a way to justify their behavior and create issues in their mind in order to defend their actions. After a while of not seeing any reaction by the BS (remember the BS doesn't know so why would you expect a reaction??) they are able to justify that they aren't doing anything hurtful, therefor it is not wrong. The justification that happens in their mind is always sufficient.

Another reason that they freak out when the 10% is coming from another person, is that when they come out of the justification fog and realize that if they were to open up as they did with the AP, they might have just made their marriage better and gotten what they were missing from their spouse. ,Instead they made the wrong choice and took the easy way out by getting it from another and only sabotaging the marriage with their misguided justifications (and sometimes they even knew it was wrong so they found a support group of friends to make them feel better about their actions by telling lies and justifications to get that support).


----------



## Graywolf2

Squeakr said:


> I see your point, but according to my WW, after she was caught, she had no intention of stopping the A's. She felt justified and that she was doing nothing wrong as she had already moved on in her mind (the way she was dealing with it) and owed me nothing due to the years of abuse I had provided her (none of which is true and can be verified by several objective 3rd parties that things she claimed in actuality never happened).
> 
> The WS has a way to justify their behavior and create issues in their mind in order to defend their actions. After a while of not seeing any reaction by the BS (remember the BS doesn't know so why would you expect a reaction??) they are able to justify that they aren't doing anything hurtful, therefor it is not wrong. The justification that happens in their mind is always sufficient.
> 
> Another reason that they freak out when the 10% is coming from another person, is that when they come out of the justification fog and realize that if they were to open up as they did with the AP, they might have just made their marriage better and gotten what they were missing from their spouse. ,Instead they made the wrong choice and took the easy way out by getting it from another and only sabotaging the marriage with their misguided justifications (and sometimes they even knew it was wrong so they found a support group of friends to make them feel better about their actions by telling lies and justifications to get that support).


Very well put and you are quite correct. Everyone wants to think of themselves as a good person. In order to remain a good person in their own mind and with their friends they demonize their spouse (blame shifting).

Some people are objective and honest enough with themselves to admit that their spouse is a good person. They even love them and don’t say bad things about them even to their AP. The affair is just for fun. 

They tend to choose an AP that is also married and never wants to leave their spouse. They’re very careful not to get caught. In a way they are loyal to their spouse because they have no intention of ever leaving them and look forward to growing old together. 

What I’m saying is that these people cope with their guilt differently. Instead of blame shifting they are nicer to their spouse as a kind of payment. It’s like anonymously paying for the college education of a kid when you killed their parent in a hit and run.

Someone that had an affair end badly and were never caught might behave the same way. In the cold light of day the AP was not as good as their spouse. They freak out over what they almost lost. As payment they work on their marriage.

I think that the OP's (Forest) wife has been trying to make up for her affair for 20 years. i.e. BJ and steak.

The difficult question is that if Forest had never found out, would he and the marriage be better off because she had an affair?


----------



## allwillbewell

In reply to the recent posts by greywolf and squeaker: you nailed it!
In my case FWH never particularly treated me a great deal better after first affair ended with me none the wiser, but he certainly wasn't abusive. He compartmentalized and moved on withdrawn and emotionally with -holding, perfecting the facade of happily married couple. Of course when another willing OW suggested that they fool around, he was "intrigued " and took her up on it. Figured what I didn't know would not hurt me...and if he got away with it once he could do so again. He never learned what was so wrong with himself the first time, he repeated the betrayal. 
We are 3 years out from dday and doing pretty well discovering who our real selves are but the damage is done to both our souls and can never be fully made new..just repaired. The triggers are less spectacular and not as many as when I first discovered but I work hard to distract myself and dwell on H 's sincere efforts to make amends and show his love and commitment.


----------



## sidney2718

LongWalk said:


> There must be some spouses who cheated and were never caught but were extra nice to try and compensate. For sure some guy thought, wow, what luck, when he was getting the hottest and most tender bj out of the blue. It would be interesting to know how much extra niceness would be given before the WS figured they had made good?


I think the answer is that a majority of the spouses who cheated were never caught, many (but a far smaller number) benefited in various sexual and non-sexual ways, and only a small number ever figured it out.

Call me cynical, but there it is.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

sidney2718 said:


> I think the answer is that a majority of the spouses who cheated were never caught, many (but a far smaller number) benefited in various sexual and non-sexual ways, and only a small number ever figured it out.
> 
> Call me cynical, but there it is.


I think due to social media, there is a higher level of infidelity today.

I also think that more of it get's descovered do to the electronic trails left by cell phones, PCs and the increasing connectivity. With phone syncing and the cloud, more and more BS's end up here because they caught something left where the WS didn't know it was being stored.

It's gotten easier to cheat yes, but it's also gotten easier to catch a cheat. You just have to know, or accidentally look.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> B*y Forest*
> She came home today with a special birthday cake she ordered for me. Caused a long side trip for her, so I gave her a big hug for the occasion. She looked especially happy about this, and it was kinda like before DDay. An enjoyable moment. Afterward, I realized how much I missed being able to do things like that without picturing her cheating in my head.
> 
> What a waste.





> *BY BLUNT*
> Forest, you can do things like that without picturing her cheating in your head in the future. It won’t happen in a matter of weeks but can get better every month. In the years to come it is possible that you almost never think of her cheating in your head.







> *By Headspin*
> HOW?






*
First, Forest can build himself up in body, mind, spirit, and emotions. This is for Forest to get more self sufficient but not as a revenge thing but because he needs to get stronger*. Getting stronger so that her cheating will not dominate his mind will take years. However, he can improve every month or two. Forest is in the very early stages and his hurt and mind is very hard to control but he can start to change that.


Forest’s wife is remorseful and doing everything she can and has changed. Forest can force himself to think of that every time he pictures the affair.


Thirdly, he can accept that the world is not fair and neither was his wife. Sometimes you have to decide that you are going to take a hit and then make the best of it for YOU first then others.


Fourthly, the more that Forest improves in other areas such as in his work, his fatherhood, him living up to his spiritual principles, making decisions to live up to his integrity, improving his relationships to his children and others, an having the faith that in the long run he will be rewarded for his efforts. 



Getting to the punt that you truly forgive will be a huge step forward for Forest. The forgiveness that I am talking about DOES NOT SAY the betrayal WAS NOTHING and there is no consequences. The forgiveness that I am talking about relives Forest of the emotional negative bondage that fosters hate, revenge, and resentments. Forest can not change what happened but he can change the damage that has been done to him. Those are just a few off the top of my head.


If he does these then in time he will be more self sufficient in the right ways and will not need to be consumed by how he was shyt on, how unfair life is, and will have enough strength in himself that he will see others drawn to him. This will reduce the mind games a lot!


Being cheated on is very damaging but it is not the worst thing in life and can be overcome to a high degree with time and the right actions and attitudes. The betrayal will never be completly wiped out but it does not have to ruin every enjoyable moment you have with your spouse.

Basically, Forest is the main one that can offset his pain. He is fortunate that his wife is truly remorseful and trying to make it up to him. That can help a lot but you never depend on the WS to get yourself through the pain of betrayal. *Going all out with high motivation and activity to get himself better in the right way and is the best thing that Forest can do for himself and his loved ones.*


----------



## Squeakr

Mr Blunt said:


> Being cheated on is very damaging but it is not the worst thing in life and can be overcome to a high degree with time and the right actions and attitudes.[/COLOR]




In your opinion then, what is the worst thing in life?

In my experience having been to war, abused as a child, experienced the death of loved ones, been physically injured and disabled, and cheated on by my spouse, I can say without a doubt that the cheating and betrayal has been the worst thing that I have and hope to ever experience in my life up to this point and wonder what could possibly be worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

2asdf2 said:


> I guess, what I am driving at is that -just as your wife is not the same today as your wife of twenty years ago- you may find that the OM is not the same OM either. Would you be disappointed and frustrated if that were the case? Or would that thought help you to cope with your current obsession to deliver a rebuttal?


I had a short conversation with him on the phone, have seen his stupid Facebook page, and pictures. They guy is still a self-absorbed, twice divorced, mama's boy (truly! truly!), loser that is afraid to face his fate.

The kind of guy that threatens legal action when confronted. You get the picture. A coward.

On the other hand, if he were remorseful, repentant, and sorrowful as can be, I'd still want to deliver a rebuttal.


----------



## allwillbewell

The worst thing? The death of a child.

Forest, Mr.Blunt is right...pretty much the same way I have been able to move on with my FWH. 

But also with me is the knowledge in the back of my mind that if my H ever betrays me again, I will walk...just too much wasted time and pain in our relationship and MY LIFE which I didn't choose to allow him to dictate or expect me to put up with...my returned self esteem wouldn't allow it and obviously he would not have changed...

That understood between the two of us, I do not worry about the future..I enjoy the present and deal with the past when it intrudes the best I can.


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## Forest

Squeakr said:


> In your opinion then, what is the worst thing in life?
> 
> In my experience having been to war, abused as a child, experienced the death of loved ones, been physically injured and disabled, and cheated on by my spouse, I can say without a doubt that the cheating and betrayal has been the worst thing that I have and hope to ever experience in my life up to this point and wonder what could possibly be worse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pretty much agree with this. I can imagine only a very few things worse. Death of a child; Total body paralysis; Life with no parole....


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## Squeakr

allwillbewell said:


> The worst thing? The death of a child.


Not according to several on here, other sites, and polls conducted within books and journals (as per people like Dr Harley). They say that the pain of a betrayal and cheating was worse as it is never really final, understood, and it was planned (or at leafs could have been avoided). All things that most death of children can answer those questions. Yes, they say it hurts but not as bad as the betrayal. I can't say this as fact as I have never lost a child, but know the loss of a parent or other loved one didn't hurt nearly as much for me as the betrayal did for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 86857

It's the monkey on BS's back. 

It's the little triggers, little stabs that will be there even 5 years from now, or 10, or 20. 

It's the disbelief BS feels and will always feel, never quite understanding how WS could have done that. 
But WS did.

WS may have said over and over that they have told the full truth and BS might have decided to believe them. But BS always knows that WS has told them as much truth as WS thought was necessary, not the 100% truth that BS thought was necessary. BS will be left with that nagging doubt forever, powerless to do anything about it because BS wasn't there. 
That is the hardest thing to live with. 

EA or PA. A month or a year. Sex once or a hundred times. One lie or fifty. It doesn't matter. All the damage was done in the moment that WS took that step. It destroyed what was, and what will never be the same again no matter what WS does. 
That time is gone. 

BS thought WS was someone they could trust with their life, their best friend in the world, their confidant, someone who would always stand by them. 
That's what BS thought, and BS was wrong, so wrong. 

BS sometimes remembers what it was like when there wasn't that little cloud overhead. 
And feels a pang as they think of when the sky was blue.

BS would have never chosen this for themselves. Yet somehow they found themselves in it. 

Now it's Plan B. And it will always be Plan B. 

R is the Plan B version of marriage. 

It might be a strange thing to say, but so grievous is the wound of betrayal that had WS died, the pain would be easier. The sadness would be a different kind of sadness. 
A more tolerable kind of sadness.

Like all the rest of us Forest, I think all of that is what you are dealing with. 

Which is why I completely agree with Mae West.


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## Headspin

Mr Blunt said:


> *Being cheated on is very damaging but it is not the worst thing in life and can be overcome* to a high degree with time and the right actions and attitudes.[/COLOR] The betrayal will never be completly wiped out but it does not have to ruin every enjoyable moment you have with your spouse.
> 
> Basically, Forest is the main one that can offset his pain. He is fortunate that his wife is truly remorseful and trying to make it up to him. That can help a lot but you never depend on the WS to get yourself through the pain of betrayal.




At last Blunt I have found out why fundamentally you and I are different and will never agree 

That bolded bit - that's everything 

For most of us that is having your heart taken out sliced sown back up and later taken out again and resliced all done by somebody looking you in the eye and saying "no, no it wasn't me honest" whilst they stand their holding the knife behind their back !! 

I've lost people family and that is different but they did not lie about their death, their illness, their problem - they did not seek to actually harm me in my life 

Most events happening do not seek to actually devastate you or the people like your kids closest to you. 

Murder Rape they are done TO you or your child or your family (and the effect is family personal emotionally deep) 


...............adultery is also done TO YOU 

So although it's not number one the full effects of it are close 

but as you say "it's not the worst thing ......"


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## 2asdf2

Forest said:


> I had a short conversation with him on the phone, have seen his stupid Facebook page, and pictures. They guy is still a self-absorbed, twice divorced, mama's boy (truly! truly!), loser that is afraid to face his fate.
> 
> The kind of guy that threatens legal action when confronted. You get the picture. A coward.
> 
> On the other hand, if he were remorseful, repentant, and sorrowful as can be, I'd still want to deliver a rebuttal.


Go to it, then.:smthumbup:


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## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Mr Blunt *
> 
> Being cheated on is very damaging but it is not the worst thing in life and can be overcome to a high degree with time and the right actions and attitudes
> 
> 
> 
> *By Squeakr*
> In your opinion then, what is the worst thing in life?
> 
> In my experience having been to war, abused as a child, experienced the death of loved ones, been physically injured and disabled, and cheated on by my spouse, I can say without a doubt that the cheating and betrayal has been the worst thing that I have and hope to ever experience in my life up to this point and wonder what could possibly be worse.


Squeakr

If you feel that being cheated on by your wife is worse than being abused as a child, the death of a loved one, and being disabled, then I am not about to argue with you.

I have had something happen to my child and that is worse than my wife cheating on me. What happened to my child was very bad and I am not going to talk about here.

*Squeakr, Thank you for your willingness to put your life on the line for us.*


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## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Mr Blunt *
> 
> Being cheated on is very damaging but it is not the worst thing in life and can be overcome to a high degree with time and the right actions and attitudes.The betrayal will never be completly wiped out but it does not have to ruin every enjoyable moment you have with your spouse.
> 
> Basically, Forest is the main one that can offset his pain. He is fortunate that his wife is truly remorseful and trying to make it up to him. That can help a lot but you never depend on the WS to get yourself through the pain of betrayal.
> 
> 
> 
> *By Headspin*
> At last Blunt I have found out why fundamentally you and I are different and will never agree
> 
> That bolded bit - that's everything
> 
> For most of us that is having your heart taken out sliced sown back up and later taken out again and resliced all done by somebody looking you in the eye and saying "no, no it wasn't me honest" whilst they stand their holding the knife behind their back !!
> 
> I've lost people family and that is different but they did not lie about their death, their illness, their problem - they did not seek to actually harm me in my life
> 
> Most events happening do not seek to actually devastate you or the people like your kids closest to you.
> 
> Murder Rape they are done TO you or your child or your family (and the effect is family personal emotionally deep)
> 
> 
> ...............adultery is also done TO YOU
> 
> So although it's not number one the full effects of it are close
> 
> but as you say "it's not the worst thing ......"




Headspin

You say that we are fundamentally different and will never agree because I do not feel that being cheated on is the worst thing that can happen in life. If you and Squeakr feel that being cheated on is the worst thing that can happen to you then I will respect that. I can understand how you both feel as I have been hit with that nuke myself. 



*My post was for Forest and his situation not every person that has been cheated on*. Maybe your spouse that cheated on you was the granddaddy of all the cheats from hell. Forest’s situation does not fall into that category IMO. All cheats are not the same. Forest’s wife is sincerely remorseful and begging for forgiveness, will do anything he wants and she has been faithful for 20 years. That is different than some other situations.



Headspin, you asked me to explain HOW Forest can enjoy a special moment with his wife without him picturing her cheating in his head. *I gave five points to your question and I feel that those five points can help Forest*. No matter who seems to be right about cheating being the worst in life or not, that does not seem like it would help forest very much; does it?



I have already said that I think that Forest’s situation has a better chance of R than many others and so I am hoping that he gets the kind of information that will help him in that goal. Convincing him that cheating is the worst thing in life will probably not help him much or not at all IMO.



Cheating may be the worst thing in life for you but it was not for me. One of the reason that it is not the worst thing in life for me is that I have over 20 years of successful R and the terribly sting of infidelity no longer controls my life or emotions to any great degree. *I have improved myself and have become more self sufficient and the devastation that infidelity can bring cannot ruin my life.*



*
How many years do you have of R or D? *I am not trying to get in an argument with you, we already had some arguments in the past, and I just do not remember all the details of your situation. I personally do not think that most people can correctly evaluate cheating as the worst thing in life if they have not recovered to a high degree from the Infidelity. I have seen some people recover quite a bit in less than 10 years but I have never seen anyone recover to a great degree in 1-2 years.



I think that Forest will benefit a lot more if he concentrates on improving himself more and becoming more self sufficient than if he spends time trying to decide if cheating is the worst thing in life. *Even if he decides that cheating is the worst thing in life what good will that do him?*


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## Squeakr

Mr Blunt said:


> Squeakr
> 
> If you feel that being cheated on by your wife is worse than being abused as a child, the death of a loved one, and being disabled, then I am not about to argue with you.
> 
> I have had something happen to my child and that is worse than my wife cheating on me. What happened to my child was very bad and I am not going to talk about here.
> 
> *Squeakr, Thank you for your willingness to put your life on the line for us.*


Thanks and sorry for the pain you have experienced. I know everyone is different and now know what could be worse for you as I was truly interested in what you considered worse (and don't feel that you need to justify it with descriptions of the actions your experience of it was bad enough and no reason to dredge it up unless it helps you). I was truly curious as research has shown otherwise, but that is a summation of the overall findings and not the truth for all (just as many will argue that something is worse when they have never experienced either which I see is not the case for you). Thanks for your response as I like to understand where everyone is coming from with their recommendations and experiences as it can lots of times put things into a different perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr

Mr Blunt said:


> *Even if he decides that cheating is the worst thing in life what good will that do him?*


I've learned from everything I have done and experienced in my life that sometimes it is good to learn what ones limits are (both high and low) so that one can learn just what capacity someone has to continue to survive, learn, and grow after even having experienced such extremes. It can help to put things into perspective as they are encountered. You know as they say "don't sweat the small stuff". How can one ever follow that truth if they have been sheltered and never have known any differing levels of pain and joy and what they can and have handled in their lives. Sometimes it is good to know it can't get any worse as it gives one the drive to move on knowing they have experienced the lowest point already and things can't or won't get worse. Some people need this type of motivation to get them to move on. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

Forest said:


> I haven't really touched on it, but I have a ton of regret about my behavior during those days, also. If I had done certain things differently, it could prevented all this. Problem is, I truly felt my wife was being unnecessarily demanding and critical. If I tried to talk about it with her, she'd lose her temper, and really go nuts. Eventually I got tired and and gun-shy, and backed off. To her, this was "rejecting" her, which started the ball rolling.
> 
> Yeah, if I could go back, I think I could fix it. It would just mean worshipping the ground she walked on at all times. Kind of a "get over here and adore me, or else!"



Hmmm, this might have been pointed out but I haven't read every post here.
Are you sure this wasn't the real start of her affair? It sounds to me as though the ball was rolling before you thought it was. Or at least she was thinking about it.

Just a possibility.


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## Forest

********** said:


> It's the monkey on BS's back.
> 
> It's the little triggers, little stabs that will be there even 5 years from now, or 10, or 20.
> 
> It's the disbelief BS feels and will always feel, never quite understanding how WS could have done that.
> But WS did.
> 
> 
> It destroyed what was, and what will never be the same again no matter what WS does.
> 
> 
> BS thought WS was someone they could trust with their life, their best friend in the world, their confidant, someone who would always stand by them.
> 
> 
> BS sometimes remembers what it was like when there wasn't that little cloud overhead.
> And feels a pang as they think of when the sky was blue.
> 
> BS would have never chosen this for themselves. Yet somehow they found themselves in it.


Great work. So many things that are obviously nearly universal. Could have come out of my mouth, or thousands other's.

For Squeakr, sorry this thread has unintentionally drawn out an even more painful remembrance for you. I'm with you 100%. For all of us, I think we know that infidelity is recognized as one of life's great pains. No need to any further dramatize our points, or compare. Seems no matter how bad the hurt, there will always be something awful out there to top it, just to show us we should count our blessings more.


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## WyshIknew

Out of interest has she tried the 'you have a free pass' offer?

If so I would think very carefully before cashing it in, if at all.


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## Forest

WyshIknew said:


> Out of interest has she tried the 'you have a free pass' offer?
> 
> If so I would think very carefully before cashing it in, if at all.


No, that's never come up. I think we've matured beyond that kind of thing now. That's the type of thing that (for me) would just be a weak and pathetic attempt at revenge that wouldn't work. Wouldn't level the playing field; wouldn't make the torment go away. Why bother?


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## WyshIknew

Forest said:


> No, that's never come up. I think we've matured beyond that kind of thing now. That's the type of thing that (for me) would just be a weak and pathetic attempt at revenge that wouldn't work. Wouldn't level the playing field; wouldn't make the torment go away. Why bother?


Just thought I'd mention it as it often comes up, except on very few occasions it seems to have been a bad idea during a reconciliation.


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## 86857

Forest said:


> Great work. So many things that are obviously nearly universal. Could have come out of my mouth, or thousands other's.
> 
> For Squeakr, sorry this thread has unintentionally drawn out an even more painful remembrance for you. I'm with you 100%. For all of us, I think we know that infidelity is recognized as one of life's great pains. No need to any further dramatize our points, or compare. Seems no matter how bad the hurt, there will always be something awful out there to top it, just to show us we should count our blessings more.


I totally agree Forest. Sorry too Squeakr if I contributed negatively. 
I know my posts may sound very dark. But I think of it as reality. I realised after a while, years not months, that by accepting the reality, I could cope so much better. 
If our expectations are unrealistic, they can cause us a great deal of pain. 
I used to expect that one day I wouldn't feel those pangs, or I wouldn't notice the little cloud passing overhead, or one day I would feel the same way I did before, or I would have that 'lightness of being' again. I know now I mustn't expect that. And I don't. And so I can shrug my shoulders and think, "Oh well, comes with the territory that I ended up travelling in." 

Through all of it, even in my darkest hours, 3 big stars shone brightly. Despite my pain, every time I looked at them, my heart leapt for joy. 
Those 3 bright stars are of course my three precious children. 
I have more than I could have ever hoped for.


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## Squeakr

Thanks all. Sorry if I may have given an impression that things have been worsened by this thread and statements therein. That is contrary to the fact. I am generally strong and have learned to deal with these pains in my life through the years and rely on them to ground me when I think things are getting worse. I appreciate everyone's sentiments but in all honesty I haven't ever viewed my pains and experiences as any worse than what others deal with here and in their everyday lives. I try to use my experiences to draw upon and help others that might not have been exposed to as much within their lives. Believe me, I have known many that I viewed as having it worse than I could ever imagine. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Forest said:


> No, that's never come up. I think we've matured beyond that kind of thing now. That's the type of thing that (for me) would just be a weak and pathetic attempt at revenge that wouldn't work. Wouldn't level the playing field; wouldn't make the torment go away. Why bother?


All it does is add to the anger, distrust and angst. You also lose what little of the moral high ground you have. 

All you can do is swallow the sh!tsandwich she made for you, digest it, and sh!t it out again...

So sorry you are having to go through this brother.


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## sammy3

86857 said:


> It's the monkey on BS's back.
> 
> It's the little triggers, little stabs that will be there even 5 years from now, or 10, or 20.
> 
> It's the disbelief BS feels and will always feel, never quite understanding how WS could have done that.
> But WS did.
> 
> WS may have said over and over that they have told the full truth and BS might have decided to believe them. But BS always knows that WS has told them as much truth as WS thought was necessary, not the 100% truth that BS thought was necessary. BS will be left with that nagging doubt forever, powerless to do anything about it because BS wasn't there.
> That is the hardest thing to live with.
> 
> EA or PA. A month or a year. Sex once or a hundred times. One lie or fifty. It doesn't matter. All the damage was done in the moment that WS took that step. It destroyed what was, and what will never be the same again no matter what WS does.
> That time is gone.
> 
> BS thought WS was someone they could trust with their life, their best friend in the world, their confidant, someone who would always stand by them.
> That's what BS thought, and BS was wrong, so wrong.
> 
> BS sometimes remembers what it was like when there wasn't that little cloud overhead.
> And feels a pang as they think of when the sky was blue.
> 
> BS would have never chosen this for themselves. Yet somehow they found themselves in it.
> 
> Now it's Plan B. And it will always be Plan B.
> 
> R is the Plan B version of marriage.
> 
> It might be a strange thing to say, but so grievous is the wound of betrayal that had WS died, the pain would be easier. The sadness would be a different kind of sadness.
> A more tolerable kind of sadness.
> 
> Like all the rest of us Forest, I think all of that is what you are dealing with.
> 
> Which is why I completely agree with Mae West.



86857,

Your words are perfect, your words are my reality, my sadness, your words are R.

-sammy


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## allwillbewell

*"If our expectations are unrealistic, they can cause us a great deal of pain. 
I used to expect that one day I wouldn't feel those pangs, or notice the little cloud passing overhead, or feel the same way I did before, or would again have that 'lightness of being'."*


Definitely agree with 86857 here...BS mourn for a very long time(perhaps the rest of their life) the death of the illusion/expectation that marriage guaranteed fidelity, that their spouse would always have their back, protect them and the union; mourning the spouse they thought they knew so well but was murdered by the dark forces within that same spouse... But life rarely hands us what we want, we just have to deal with it the best we can. 

That "lightness of being" is still there for us, however, maybe not through our WS any longer, but certainly can be experienced through different means: children, grandchildren, work, volunteerism, artistic creativity, meditation, spirituality, etc.

And never discount the value of the lessons the pain taught whether the relationship with FWS continues or ends in divorce. Hopefully, we BSs have gained insight and strength of character through this test of hellfire, rather than dissolve into bitterness and resentment for the rest of our lives.


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## RWB

86857 said:


> _(condensed)_
> 
> *It's the monkey on BS's back. *
> 
> It's the little triggers, little stabs that will be there even 5 years from now, or 10, or 20.
> 
> It's the disbelief BS feels and will always feel, never quite understanding how WS could have done that.
> 
> *But WS did.*
> 
> WS may have said over and over that they have told the full truth and BS might have decided to believe them. But BS always knows that *WS has told them as much truth as WS thought was necessary, not the 100% truth* that BS thought was necessary. *BS will be left with that nagging doubt forever, *powerless to do anything about it because BS wasn't there. That is the hardest thing to live with.
> 
> EA or PA. A month or a year. Sex once or a hundred times. One lie or fifty. It doesn't matter. All the damage was done in the moment that WS took that step. It destroyed what was, and what will never be the same again no matter what WS does.
> That time is gone.
> 
> BS thought WS was someone they could trust with their life, their best friend in the world, their confidant, someone who would always stand by them. That's what BS thought, and BS was wrong, so wrong...
> 
> BS would have never chosen this for themselves. Yet somehow they found themselves in it.
> 
> Now it's Plan B. And it will always be Plan B.
> 
> *R is the Plan B version of marriage... *


Forest,

Regardless of the "new" WS actions and words... This assessment of what's left in Betrayed Marriage is without exception exactly the reality of R.

Understand, your marriage can and will have "good" times again, but that _"Cloud"_ will never breakup over the union.

Hear a Truth... If most BS were honest with themselves, they would admit that in R regardless of 1 month, 1 year or 20... *It's* the 1st thing that crosses their mind every morning and the last that leaves in the evening. Sleep being your only respite, if that.

You get to decide, what *It's* is going to be and how will obscure your life.

I know some will call this defeatist, coward, childlike, so be it. However, I personally grew tired of fighting the memory and excepted that Plan B is my new reality.


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## Mr Blunt

The posts by AllWillBeWell and 86857 below are so good that I am reprinting it and then going to comment





> *By 86857*
> "If our expectations are unrealistic, they can cause us a great deal of pain.
> I used to expect that one day I wouldn't feel those pangs, or notice the little cloud passing overhead, or feel the same way I did before, or would again have that 'lightness of being'."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By AllWillBeWell*
> Definitely agree with 86857 here...BS mourn for a very long time(perhaps the rest of their life) the death of the illusion/expectation that marriage guaranteed fidelity, that their spouse would always have their back, protect them and the union; mourning the spouse they thought they knew so well but was murdered by the dark forces within that same spouse... But life rarely hands us what we want, we just have to deal with it the best we can.
> 
> That "lightness of being" is still there for us, however, maybe not through our WS any longer, but certainly can be experienced through different means: children, grandchildren, work, volunteerism, artistic creativity, meditation, spirituality, etc.
> 
> And never discount the value of the lessons the pain taught whether the relationship with FWS continues or ends in divorce. Hopefully, we BSs have gained insight and strength of character through this test of hellfire, rather than dissolve into bitterness and resentment for the rest of our lives.




*My expectations were unrealistic but they are not anymore.*I no longer mourn the death of my illusion, and that my spouse would always have my back. I have regained the “Lightness of being” by engaging some of the experiences that AllWillBeWell mentioned. The “value of the lessons the pain taught” is indeed insight and strength of character!


Yes it took several years to get more insight and strength of character but as AllWillBeWell mentioned the choice is between acquiring insight and strength of Character and bitterness and resentment.
*After infidelity you have many years left to live so you get to choose which one you want.


The bottom line for me is that you use those years after the A to become more self sufficient and less co-dependant*. In addition you can add to your “lightness of living” by the different means such as “.. children, grandchildren, work, volunteerism, artistic creativity, meditation, spirituality, etc.”




Another thing that I did that helped is that stopped spending a lot of time mulling over what is fair and what is not fair. I told myself that this is what has happed, this is where I am now, and how can I make the best of it. Then I followed up with actions.* I stopped trying to change her and concentrated on me, without any false guilt, because I am the only person that I can change and I am the only person that I am responsible for.*



Great posts by 86857 and AllWillBeWell


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## 86857

I don't think the experience of being betrayed made me stronger. . . or weaker. It was just that, an experience with one particular person. 

If anything, all it did was reinforce the values I always had. But then again, I never doubted them in the first place. 

It did teach me something. I now have an even greater respect for couples who have each others backs, plough through the good times and bad and grow old together. I have a greater respect still for those couples whose relationships fail and who divorce without having allowed a third person to come into the space of their marriage. 

Kudos to all you faithful spouses out there. Marriage isn't always easy. 

And kudos to all you divorced people out there who did so honourably. 

Recently, I told my ex-husband, the father of my 3 children about my betrayal. We have remained friends. I said to him, "At least we never lied to each other." He looked at me and laughed and said, "But we never had anything to lie to each other about!"

That's it in a nutshell. 

Despite everything dear posters, no WS is going to make me lose my faith in the human race.


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## doubletrouble

fWW once told me she used OM as a substitute for me. 

I told her no, he didn't sub for me. You helped him obliterate me. 

I'll never be the same, I'll never look at her the same, I'll never see our union as the one thing I can point to in life that is so harmonious that it means everything to me. 

In my life, with no kids of my own, all that I could have is a harmonious relationship with the woman I love. That's all I could do for my heart's well-being. I have never had that before, and now I will never have it. 

I could divorce her, sure. Call up OM and tell him he can have her. I told people about my first wife, "If someone can steal her from me, he can have her." Someone did. So I don't have that good a track record. Like Bette Midler said, in her Sophie Tucker persona, "Finding a man is easy; keepin' him's the hard part." Reverse genders and there you go.

Forest, from my viewpoint, you're in a squeeze play. Your situation will be different from mine. But your feelings probably aren't far from it. What you do about it will be different from what I am doing. You have to decide what level of pain you are willing to live with for the rest of your life.


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## happyman64

> You have to decide what level of pain you are willing to live with for the rest of your life.


You only live with the pain if you choose too! It is a conscious decision.

If I was in Forests's shoes I would spend the next 20 years having a great life and letting my wife dedicate herself to repairing the damage and living me to the fullest.


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## nuclearnightmare

Forest

I have not quite reached the end on this thread so hope I do not miss a key fact or development but here's how I see this.

-- every reason or excuse she has given is more lame than you have allowed. No reasoning to us or to her necessary. All ridiculous

-- you do not have to accept this. I am not keen on the attitude of many marriage counselor and their attitudes on moving on after affairs. Beware your own good opinions on the one you are working with now.

-- the point is NOT to save your marriage. The point is to save YOU. 

Looks like divorce presents practical difficilties. What about separation. I think the betrayed need this more often than not just to clear their head. And...frankly.....to consider whether there isn't someone else out there you'd rather spend the rest of your life with. Maybe there isn't, but you now have the right to consider the question...actively.

If your wife really loves you she will truly humble herself, as you do this, and fight for a 2nd chance with you. If she can't do this, humble herself this much to do this, that should also inform your future decisions.


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## nuclearnightmare

Forest said:


> No, that's never come up. I think we've matured beyond that kind of thing now. That's the type of thing that (for me) would just be a weak and pathetic attempt at revenge that wouldn't work. Wouldn't level the playing field; wouldn't make the torment go away. Why bother?


On the other hand, in the future if you were to strike up a friendship, say with a woman at work. Your thoughts and interest in her grow a bit stronger, your reaction then might be to self-correct. Avoid the person more, stop dropping bye her office etc. Perhaps you would have handled things that way before you found out your wife cheated on you. If you stay with her, how would you handle such a situation in the future?
For me I would then wonder what's so bad about a friendship with another woman developing beyond that. What would I be trying to protect, really? At that point my relationship with my wife would not be based on total fidelity anyway. Therefore.....


----------

