# Friends? Probably not.



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Dear Chump Lady,
I am 6 months post divorce after discovering my ex-wife’s infidelity in September 2013. This holiday season my children (12, 8) are with my ex-wife abroad with her affair partner on holiday with my ex in-laws. It sucks that my kids spend time with the man that helped break up my family and end my marriage, but that’s another topic.
My question today is what happens to couple friends after divorce? Can anyone remain impartial and be friends with both sides, or do things naturally drift one way or the other over time? Can I remain friends with someone who has seen me crushed, particularly those few that know the whole story of the infidelity, and who stay friends with the ex-wife? Even more challenging, are those, who as a couple, are friendly with ex-wife and her affair partner.
After a year, I’ve decided to start letting the latter category of friends wane, because it’s too hurtful, as I wouldn’t the same to a friend. Or am I wrong or unique in my view? Do you need to have been through infidelity to fully understand the hurt that this causes?
Appreciate your view and advice.
Carlos

Dear Carlos,
You don’t need to have gone through infidelity to understand that it hurts like a ************. You just need to know that it’s unjust.
And there’s the rub, Carlos. We live in an age where people are loathe to judge injustice. Two sides to every story. No one knows what goes on in a marriage. They grew apart, blah, blah, blame shift, blah.
I can’t explain the fashion for being Above Judgment, because judgement is essential to living and especially to avoiding disaster. Should I invest my retirement savings in Beanie Babies? Should I befriend the neighborhood pedophile? Ride my bike down a flight of stairs?
If we didn’t judge people and situations, we’d be a bunch of jelly-brained imbeciles. Anyone could steal our lunch money. We’d be adrift. Good Samaritans would have to pin our addresses to our sweaters and walk us home.
Fact is, we judge every day. Worthy! Unworthy! Good risk! Bad risk!
The **** sandwich of dealing with the People Above Judgment is that they did judge, they just found you unworthy. But they don’t want to come out and say that. They’d rather pronounce the situation ambiguous and unknowing. We can all be friends, of course. Because that’s easier on them. Then they don’t have to make judgment calls or think of people differently, or rearrange their social calendars and seating charts. Let’s Pretend That Never Happened. Your grief isn’t nearly as important as their discomfort. So let’s make believe you aren’t grieving.
In fact, let’s pretend the problem is you and your bitterness and inability to confer forgiveness and move on. Then we never have to consider the injustice of this situation, the pain of you and your children, or our moral culpability at befriending someone who helped break up a marriage. If the problem is YOU and Something You Did (or did not do, like grant forgiveness), then infidelity isn’t so scary. Infidelity only happens to those who deserve it, who do the Wrong Sorts of Things. Unlike the smug People Above Judgment who are immune from chumpdom.
Cheaters have many narratives, but the favorite is happiness. Hey, we deserve to be happy. Really this is for the best. Carlos, in time, will be happier too! He’ll find someone who is a better fit, and hey, really he owes to all to this life change made possible by infidelity. No harm, no foul!
Dimmer people think… well, who can be against happiness! They don’t ask themselves at what cost? And who is paying that cost? They think… Carlos’s ex seems happy. Happy people are easier and more fun to be around than grief-stricken, angry people. Walking into Carlos’s pain is rather a bummer. So… let’s (judge!) go with the Happy People.
Don’t you like Happy People, Carlos? What’s wrong with you? Why can’t you forgive and be friends?
Well, that all makes a perverse sort of sense if you lack empathy and have no moral compass. (I’m sure stealing my bank card and buying 15 hamburgers confers happiness on someone.)
The fact is, Carlos, you don’t have anything in common with people who would be friends with your cheating ex. You don’t share the same values. You said yourself, you would not do this to a friend. Ergo — these people are not your friends. There is no reciprocity there. They would not behave in the manner you would behave. You don’t share the same moral world view.
One hard blessing of infidelity is that it shows you who your real friends are, and who is a waste of space. Who can stand with vulnerability and grief, and who runs away.
This is an opportunity, Carlos, to fix your picker in all aspects of life and cherish the people close to you, who really have your back, and dump the losers who don’t. And when you do that, you’ll discover that you’re a hell of a lot more “meh” about your ex. You ARE happier. You aren’t pick me dancing with the friendship circle over who gets the “friends.” You really don’t give a **** any more.
Your new life will eclipse your old life Carlos, and into the darkness goes the smug assholes who don’t deserve you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Proud she is a member here.

Here are the cliff notes - **** these people.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Wow, that's EXCELLENT!!!!! 

Thank you for posting it!!


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I haven’t read a lot of this Chumplady’s stuff but it is indeed well put.
Well put indeed.
Enjoyed it.


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## iwantittobebetter (Feb 1, 2021)

this is the first i'm seeing something by ChumpLady, and by god how whip-smart and on point is she!!
calls out the game 'non-judging' people play out loud n clear!


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Yeah, I thought it was an excellent post. There are some people you don’t need in your life. Why bother?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

At the same time I found out my then-husband was a relentless serial cheater, I also found out that a rather shockingly large number of "our friends" had always known about it, and a few were up to very similar antics. By the time my divorce was final, I had simply ghosted everyone I knew had been aware of his cheating or was a cheater themselves. That narrowed my "friend" list down rather sharply. A few more dropped off gradually in the following months because they "didn't want to pick sides". The few I'm still friends with have remained cordial with my ex-husband - as I have - but no longer behave as or count themselves as his friends. They know what kind of person he is and don't trust him or like him. _Those_ are the people who are actually my friends. 

My ex-husband and I don't have any mutual friends anymore. We have mutual acquaintances. Because I refuse to count as friends people I know I can't trust and who don't have a similar moral compass to my own.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I remember when she first came on TAM, and I clashed with her once. I don't remember why. She writes extremely well and many people just love her advice.

Am I correct in my memory that she actually has never been a victim of infidelity? Or am I thinking of someone else?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Gabriel said:


> I remember when she first came on TAM, and I clashed with her once. I don't remember why. She writes extremely well and many people just love her advice.
> 
> Am I correct in my memory that she actually has never been a victim of infidelity? Or am I thinking of someone else?


Her book indicates she was married to a cheater and found another woman’s underwear in her bed. Went through all the same reconciliation tactics BS commonly use and finally got out. She’s definitely been through the ringer.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

QuietRiot said:


> Her book indicates she was married to a cheater and found another woman’s underwear in her bed. Went through all the same reconciliation tactics BS commonly use and finally got out. She’s definitely been through the ringer.


Okay, I must be thinking of someone else. There was a woman on here back in the day who gave a ton of advice and was revered by many but actually never got cheated on. Felt kind of fraudulent.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> Okay, I must be thinking of someone else. There was a woman on here back in the day who gave a ton of advice and was revered by many but actually never got cheated on. Felt kind of fraudulent.


It can depend. I've never been cheated on but I have dealt with it for many years in ministry and counseling.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> It can depend. I've never been cheated on but I have dealt with it for many years in ministry and counseling.


Yeah, similar for me.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I think sometimes that people who have NOT been cheated on can respond in a more logical, non-triggered way.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

The advice is different though. I know my advice now is way more accurate/better than it was when I was trying to help someone through it before it happened to me.

But yes, when you are in the middle of it, it's hard to be partial.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jlg07 said:


> I think sometimes that people who have NOT been cheated on can respond in a more logical, non-triggered way.


LoL! You should read some of my earlier posts.😳

I started studying infidelity, specifically in wives, after a close friend ended himself over it.

I was pretty raw often and in extreme anguish forcing myself to examine the data but this place helped me work through it so I could be calm when face to face with folks dealing with infidelity in real life.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

Chumplady has it right on - she was married to a royal dork and put a lot of work into trying to salvage the union - but she found pissing on the windward side didn't work very well

Her web page should be required reading for the betrayed.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Gabriel said:


> Okay, I must be thinking of someone else. There was a woman on here back in the day who gave a ton of advice and was revered by many but actually never got cheated on. Felt kind of fraudulent.


It would feel fraudulent if someone tried to say they knew, but did not in fact really know at all... you may have an idea of what a **** sandwich tastes like, but unless you’ve eaten one you don’t reaaaaaaallllly know do you? You don’t really know the texture of those peanuts in your teeth. 

It’s the same reason I don’t really listen too hard when someone is telling me all the things they’d do were they me, but they have no experience. Grain of salt.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! You should read some of my earlier posts.😳
> 
> I started studying infidelity, specifically in wives, after a close friend ended himself over it.
> 
> I was pretty raw often and in extreme anguish forcing myself to examine the data but this place helped me work through it so I could be calm when face to face with folks dealing with infidelity in real life.


Well, you experienced it in a different and just as painful way I’d say.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

I remember reading the above response ... last night I found out my daughter is spending today, Thanksgiving, with her mom and the kid who she committed adultery with. The same kid that my ex set my daughter up on dates with, the same kid who contributed to the destruction of our family's unit

unbelievable




Marc878 said:


> Dear Chump Lady,
> I am 6 months post divorce after discovering my ex-wife’s infidelity in September 2013. This holiday season my .............................


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Arkansas said:


> I remember reading the above response ... last night I found out my daughter is spending today, Thanksgiving, with her mom and the kid who she committed adultery with. The same kid that my ex set my daughter up on dates with, the same kid who contributed to the destruction of our family's unit
> 
> unbelievable


Sorry man. That’s totally uncalled for.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Arkansas said:


> I remember reading the above response ... last night I found out my daughter is spending today, Thanksgiving, with her mom and the kid who she committed adultery with. The same kid that my ex set my daughter up on dates with, the same kid who contributed to the destruction of our family's unit
> 
> unbelievable


That just seems grotesque.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Those _moral compasses_ seem to go haywire and are non-functional with people who have too much pig-iron in their thick skull, and not enough compassionate and discerning protoplasm.




_King Brian-_


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

its just another harsh realization of where I am on her ladder of importance

I imagine she wants to not hurt her mom's feelings .... and the cost of that is hurting mine (unless she can hide it from me/lie about it)

I just reached another level of drawing lines - it sucks


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Arkansas said:


> its just another harsh realization of where I am on her ladder of importance
> 
> I imagine she wants to not hurt her mom's feelings .... and the cost of that is hurting mine (unless she can hide it from me/lie about it)
> 
> I just reached another level of drawing lines - it sucks


Yep. Your life will be what you allow it to be. Having **** in it won’t get you much. 
I see a lot trying to live the life of a martyr and that just gets you abused and walked on. For what?
If they don’t care why should you?


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

its an odd thing 

so, a person decides to do something, and they know its going to hurt your feelings so they hide it (does it matter if your hurt feelings are justified or not?)

when you find out and you address it with them, they go on the defense, saying you're not moving on, you have a chance to be happy now, you don't get to decide who are friends with who or what relationships are etc (when you really never did that, you only said that you were struggling with daughter spending thanksgiving with adulterer partner and that your most important people still having close relationships with an ex who did what mine did ... its a struggle to understand)

its like my feelings don't matter and the truth is ... they don't. my daughter is free to do whatever she wants, as is my cousin/sister .... in return if that's more than I can absorb .... I think I have the right to be hurt and see it as an indicator their relationships with those people are more important than me

am I wrong ?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Nope. Reread the original post. You are standing in the way of their happiness. You don’t matter to them. 
See them for who they are. Only then will you free yourself. You have no obligations to anyone.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Arkansas said:


> its an odd thing
> 
> so, a person decides to do something, and they know its going to hurt your feelings so they hide it (does it matter if your hurt feelings are justified or not?)
> 
> ...


You are concerning yourself w/ the relationship btw two other people, don't. 

I have at most a few insights into any relationship btw two other people, and they have few into my relationships. So it is naive to expect they would have the same perspective I would.

Your "right to be hurt" is limited only by your imagination, but ask yourself if victimhood is a worthy aspiration.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Your mindset is your reality. Be a man that is focused on his new relationship and you’ll forget the other. Don’t want another? That’s your problem…. Can’t get another? Try.
Get a better job, a more fit body, nicer clothes, etc. 
You are allowing yourself to obsess over what your ex and others are doing. Focus your attention on what is in your control: you.

obsess over something that improves your life, not brings you down.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

ok but

imagine a center, and rings out from that center .... the center is kids, then a closer ring is sisters/brothers/parents .... farther our maybe are rings of cousins, best friends then to casual friends etc

I don't have near the problem with those outer rings .... but the center rings? the people who are supposed to be CLOSEST to me ..... that they accept that adulterer partner, that they accept the sin, the hurt, the destruction, the lies, the manipulation .... that hurts it just does

my own daughter ignores it, my cousin/sister person ignores it .... or at the very least they're accepting it or forgetting it for whatever reasons they have .... and they have every right to do all that

but don't I have a right to be hurt and cut them out of my inner circle of people ? it appears if they hide everything, they can have my ex and her affair partner AND they can also have me close and me doing stuff with them/for them etc ..... but they know I'll be hurt if I know they've got that relationship and so they hide it

that all just feels wrong, it just does


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It feels wrong because it is. Sorry but just because someone is family or a relative may not mean much.
You don’t have to accept anything. You have that right. It’s totally up to you.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Fact is, we judge every day. Worthy! Unworthy! Good risk! Bad risk!
> The **** sandwich of dealing with the People Above Judgment is that they did judge, they just found you unworthy. But they don’t want to come out and say that. They’d rather pronounce the situation ambiguous and unknowing. We can all be friends, of course. Because that’s easier on them. Then they don’t have to make judgment calls or think of people differently, or rearrange their social calendars and seating charts. Let’s Pretend That Never Happened. Your grief isn’t nearly as important as their discomfort. So let’s make believe you aren’t grieving.
> In fact, let’s pretend the problem is you and your bitterness and inability to confer forgiveness and move on. Then we never have to consider the injustice of this situation, the pain of you and your children, or our moral culpability at befriending someone who helped break up a marriage. If the problem is YOU and Something You Did (or did not do, like grant forgiveness), then infidelity isn’t so scary. Infidelity only happens to those who deserve it, who do the Wrong Sorts of Things. Unlike the smug People Above Judgment who are immune from chumpdom.
> Cheaters have many narratives, but the favorite is happiness. Hey, we deserve to be happy. Really this is for the best. Carlos, in time, will be happier too! He’ll find someone who is a better fit, and hey, really he owes to all to this life change made possible by infidelity. No harm, no foul!
> ...


Read it again. Great logic in this. Let them be happy without you. You sure as hell don’t need them if you forge ahead. What you have found out is who they really are. Do you really need that?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Arkansas said:


> ok but
> 
> imagine a center, and rings out from that center .... the center is kids, then a closer ring is sisters/brothers/parents .... farther our maybe are rings of cousins, best friends then to casual friends etc
> 
> ...


They have every right to do what they like.* But then, so do you.*


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

More genetics.....

Some people take on Dad's, Wrangler jeans, other's their baggy Mothers, Leave-eyes..

The shoe fits the foot closest to the comforting heart.


_TT-_ from his notes


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Arkansas said:


> ok but
> 
> imagine a center, and rings out from that center .... the center is kids, then a closer ring is sisters/brothers/parents .... farther our maybe are rings of cousins, best friends then to casual friends etc
> 
> ...


What exactly to you think your daughter owes you emotionally? Should she never spend time with her mother again, or else she is betraying you?

I'm not being judgemental, I'm really asking.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> What exactly to you think your daughter owes you emotionally? Should she never spend time with her mother again, or else she is betraying you?
> 
> I'm not being judgemental, I'm really asking.


My guess is this is a little bit akin to a bank manager finding out his daughter has befriended the man who robbed/defrauded his bank of its entire reserves, causing the bank to fail.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Arkansas said:


> my own daughter ignores it, my cousin/sister person ignores it .... or at the very least they're accepting it or forgetting it for whatever reasons they have .... and they have every right to do all that
> 
> but don't I have a right to be hurt and cut them out of my inner circle of people ?


You ABSOLUTELY have the right to cut them out of your lives. Do you really need people who WILLFULLY dismiss you and your feelings? They DO have the right to ignore it if they want, but with that decision, they reap the responsiblities of it also -- and if you decide to cut them out of your inner circle, well then that is what they got as the repercussions.

Don't be friends with someone who isn't your friend.... (or relative).
As for your daughter, she DOES have a right to keep the relationship with her mother, but can't she see how AWFUL it is is to be around the AP that DESTROYED her family? If she can't, there isn't anything YOU can do but move away from her also.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> What exactly to you think your daughter owes you emotionally? Should she never spend time with her mother again, or else she is betraying you?
> 
> I'm not being judgemental, I'm really asking.


In the past 18 months, I've helped her move 4 times, bailed her out of jail, got my trunk out of impoundment, paid $5000 in lawyer fees (her mom said she had an ethical disagreement on that, because my daughter didn't seem sorry enough for the drugs) .... I've helped her in college, went to her last band concert, given her money, accepted things about her that she didn't think I would ...

so yeah, I would expect her to show me some kind of family loyalty and NOT spend Thanksgiving with the 21 years younger kid my exwife slept with while I was married, the same kid she'd been set up on dates with, same kid that is part of the adultery that destroyed our family unit and, same kid my daughter told me she hated and would never see again

but now, she's having Thanksgiving with him

its not her mom - I understand that .... its her spending thanksgiving with that guy knowing it'd hurt my feelings and doing it anyway

spending time with him and her mom on Thanksgiving is more important than my feelings being hurt about it - I fundamentally disagree with that and she never told me she was doing that - only when I asked did she honest up and say he was going to be there


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You, Mr. Arkansas, you have principles, yet are willing to bend a bit for your family.
Yet
They won't bend a'tall for you.

I only wish it was the better cooking your daughter got 'over there'.
Nope, not.

I would grey rock your daughter for years, over this.

Maybe in five years, or so, she will mature and see the error in her ways.
If not, add another five years onto her sentence.


She needs consequences. 

Be cool, not emotional.

Do not tell her why you have cut her off, let her figure it out.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

SunCMars said:


> Be cool, not emotional.


I'm really not going to talk much to either ... I'm not going to alienate, but neither of them are my inner circle anymore

If they can't understand why .... I don't think I can explain it to them to be honest. Daughter is 21, maybe she'll just mature ... and understand later

my cousin/sister person ? she knows how I feel and she's simply choosing to do things that hurt my feelings and I see that now. My ex is important to her, more important than hurting my feelings

ok .... but my cousin/sister can't have that relationship without damaging the one with me too - and that's what they're both trying to do 



my ex did the same thing - she had affair and she knew it'd hurt me so she hid it - hide things from me, everyone seems to hide what they're doing so I won't find out


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MattMatt said:


> My guess is this is a little bit akin to a bank manager finding out his daughter has befriended the man who robbed/defrauded his bank of its entire reserves, causing the bank to fail.


I get that...but what if the robber was his son...?? Then would he understand more? Because what it sounds like he's asking is that his daughter reject HER MOTHER out of loyalty to HIM. And I'm not sure that is realistic...or healthy, FOR HIS DAUGHTER. Which is what a parent's main goal should be for their child (no matter what age) -- what's best FOR THEIR CHILD.

Now I'm not saying that I don't understand...I'm saying that what he is asking is simply leading him down a road of certain disappointment and pain. Most people reconcile in some way with their parents and family for most rifts, at some point that is right for them. And it isn't really his daughter's job to protect him from his emotions and his issues with her mother.
It's HIS job, as the adult and her father, to deal with his issues on his own. I don't believe a child owes their parent "loyalty" in this way...and even if she did give it to him, it will only cause HER pain and emotional harm in the long run.

Is that what you want @Arkansas...? I'm really asking. If her forgiving her mother and spending time with this POS other guy is what she needs and is healthiest FOR HER, would it be ok with you?? Or would you still want her to meet YOUR need to remain resentful and angry and attached to the harm that her mother caused?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Arkansas said:


> my ex did the same thing - she had affair and she knew it'd hurt me so she hid it - hide things from me, everyone seems to hide what they're doing so I won't find out


I don't think the betrayal that you perceive from your daughter is even close to the same level as the horrific, egregious betrayal that your wife perpetrated on you.

I didn't read your whole story (if you ever posted it)...have you had any counseling to help you detach from your pain and move on from what happened?


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> s that what you want @Arkansas...? I'm really asking. If her forgiving her mother and spending time with this POS other guy is what she needs and is healthiest FOR HER, would it be ok with you?? Or would you still want her to meet YOUR need to remain resentful and angry and attached to the harm that her mother caused?


how about talking to me about it ?

"hey Dad, want to spend holiday with mom but guy is going to be there too but that's what it is "

I don't overreact, I try hard to understand .... but not giving me anything is guaranteed to make it look sneaky and like they don't care about my feelings.

If my daughter needs a relationship with that guy - ok, her choice. But I am not ok with that and it'll damage my relationship in some ways. Maybe in 3 years or 5 years or 1 year I won't care - today I do.

So why can't my daughter say "hey, I'm not going to be around that guy because he was 1/2 that affair that ruined a marriage, hurt my Dad deeply and broke apart our family unit"

my ex would have to understand that and be ok with it, right ? why isn't that a viable option ? because its what I think I'd do


not apples to apples but an uncle of mine raped his teen daughter. He went to prison for it. He's a horrible person. He did nothing directly to me, but I won't associate with him at all, ever. if he's someone, I leave. I won't take the time to piss on his grave when he died. I don't need anyone like that in my life, what he did I will not ever abide or accept or want to even be around him knowing.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I didn't read your whole story (if you ever posted it)...have you had any counseling to help you detach from your pain and move on from what happened?


gawd no, counseling sucked that I went to

with my daughter, I imagine she's laughing with that guy, hugging him, calling him Dad .... that's irrational, its not really real .... but it IS how I feel

look, I lost the closest person in my life to that kid/guy ... my wife. Now, my daughter is spending holidays with him, my cousin/sister seems to have a much closer relationship to my ex than to me - that's 3 of the 4 closest people in my life. 

the latter 2 I'd not even know had changed how they see my ex and her adulterer boy except I just happened to find out last few days 


its hard for me, it feels like I'm worth just about nothing, my ex is worth a lot and the guy is worth a lot too and to be be treated like my feelings don't matter ..... no, I'm not ok with that, especially in a world where everyone's feelings seems to matter

why doesn't mine ?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Arkansas said:


> gawd no, counseling sucked that I went to
> 
> with my daughter, I imagine she's laughing with that guy, hugging him, calling him Dad .... that's irrational, its not really real .... but it IS how I feel
> 
> ...


You realize that, while understandable, your feelings are irrational, right?

If your ex chooses to have a relationship with this boy moving forward, and you can't get a hold of these feelings, you will lose your daughter too. 

Your acceptance of the situation is the problem.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

I don't give 2 schits about the ex

Its my daughter having a relationship with that guy - well enough to share holiday's with him
my cousin who is like a sister to me and the relationship she has with my ex

you're right of course - they're accepting my ex with love and compassion and her feelings matter .......... why doesn't mine and THAT is what I'm struggling with

someone did something that destroyed my life - my ex and that guy ..... and I mean I was completely shattered. daughter and cousin know this. why are the ex's feelings and that guy's feelings so much more important than mine ?

because I don't mean much to them

I get that now


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Arkansas said:


> I don't give 2 schits about the ex
> 
> Its my daughter having a relationship with that guy - well enough to share holiday's with him
> my cousin who is like a sister to me and the relationship she has with my ex
> ...


Look, dude. I know you are hurting. I know she put you through the ringer.

You really have a choice here. You can take your current approach, which is to apply a zero-sum approach to this (for you to win your ex must lose), and force your daughter to make a choice...which is not only unfair to your daughter, but is completely unrealistic.

Or...

...you can accept the situation and understand that forcing your daughter to make a choice will only encourage her to choose your wife and her adolescent boyfriend over you.

The entire foundation you are taking in this dilemma is from a position of being a victim.

That you became a victim is completely beyond your control. 

That you remain a victim is completely within your control. 

Sometimes the single best thing you can do is let go of the wheel. 

The choice is yours, brother. I hope you choose wisely. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

are you saying just suck it up, admit the adultery/lying/destruction was actually for the good of my ex, my family and me, enjoy that everyone loves my ex and her adulterer partner and smile and accept all that sin as for the greater good for everyone ?

what I CAN do ... is step back ...... from my daughter a bit, from my cousin ..... they value their relationship with the adulterer guy more than my feelings/me

that's their choice

but my choices exist too, my reactions


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Arkansas said:


> are you saying just suck it up, admit the adultery/lying/destruction was actually for the good of my ex, my family and me, enjoy that everyone loves my ex and her adulterer partner and smile and accept all that sin as for the greater good for everyone ?
> 
> what I CAN do ... is step back ...... from my daughter a bit, from my cousin ..... they value their relationship with the adulterer guy more than my feelings/me
> 
> ...


You go from victim to perpetrator in this post, as you put words in my mouth I didn't say. Hyperbole, for sure. 

And around the drama triangle you go again.

You aren't ready yet. 

I hope you find peace, brother.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> You go from victim to perpetrator in this post, as you put words in my mouth I didn't say. Hyperbole, for sure.
> 
> And around the drama triangle you go again.
> 
> ...



I didn't put words - I asked a question




I really am fascinated with how my feelings don't seem to matter yet everyone else's does

If I am really hurt, then you say I'm a victim.
If I step back from people that hurt my feelings, I then become a perpetrator


Can you honestly say in your life when people do things to hurt your feelings you have no response to it? You just ignore it and move on like it never happened?


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

I understand my daughter and her mom - I do. This isn't about that. This is about her spending Thanksgiving with the adulterer partner too - after she'd said she hated him and didn't want anything to do with him. The guy that was in the affair that destroyed the marriage, the family unit, her Dad (me) .... it destroyed so many relationships .... and now, she's spending Thanksgiving with them

If I'm wrong to struggle with that .... well its how I feel. I've thought for days on the why behind it

I think its partially lack of consideration to me. I have supported her in every way while her mom has done very little and that kid guy nothing that I know of. 

I feel like my daughter knows I'd be hurt, so she was never going to tell me. Her mom played that game, do stuff that would hurt me, just hide it. If I asked her the right worded questions, she'd answer without lying - but she was never going to tell me. That's sneaky and it stinks of people doing wrong things.

It feels like her Dad is being replaced by the kid/boy toy. Her mom already did the replacement, why not her ?


That's my FEELINGS and two of the people are my very close center don't seem to care about them. That tells me my feelings aren't that important ergo, I'm not that important either. 

But my ex and her adulterer partner? their feelings matter ..... go figure that? 

If i were reading this ... I'd think " Arkansas is lying to us about what he's done, or did ... because all that don't add up"


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Arkansas said:


> I really am fascinated with how my feelings don't seem to matter yet everyone else's does
> 
> If I am really hurt, then you say I'm a victim.
> If I step back from people that hurt my feelings, I then become a perpetrator
> ...


When I get married, I take responsibility for the decision. If it goes south, that is my problem and not that of third parties who didn't have a say in my decision to begin with.

My friends and relatives are people, with their own lives that are as important and complex as my own. At no time do they become weapons to hurl at my ex. Making them into that is just pushing my responsibility onto them.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> This is an opportunity to fix your picker in all aspects of life and cherish the people close to you, who really have your back, and dump the losers who don’t. And when you do that, you’ll discover that you’re a hell of a lot more “meh” about your ex. You ARE happier. You aren’t pick me dancing with the friendship circle over who gets the “friends.” You really don’t give a **** any more.
> Your new life will eclipse your old life and into the darkness goes the smug assholes who don’t deserve you.


The last part of ChumpLadies post. Basically go your own way. Don’t waste time on people that don't matter. 
IMO this would include relatives. You get to choose. It’s your life to live. No one else’s.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Arkansas said:


> Its my daughter having a relationship with that guy.


Gawd!
Sorry.

I was going to mention this.

Could he be doing both of them?
Your wife and daughter?

Sick is, what sick does.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

nothing surprises me anymore

nobody in the world had more faith in their wives than I did - I was wrong
I didn't think my sister in law would move me out of her life - she did
I didn't think my daughter would spend holidays with that kid/guy that was my ex-wifes adulterers partner - she just did
I didn't think my cousin/sister would ignore how I might feel about things concerning her and my ex - wrong

I think I have a far deeper sense of loyalty and what family and friendships mean. I should say had .... because my daughter and I will be less close because of this as will myself and my cousin. I'm not going to hold it over anyone, be mad, make accusations of even talk about it ...... but my feelings were and are dinged and their choices results in my reactions. 

I mean really, if someone close to any of us does something we don't understand that hurts us .... that's going to damage in some little or even bigger ways the relationships. That's inevitable IMO. 

I guarantee if I befriended the guy who murdered my daughters boyfriend (happened 18 months ago) she'd be stunned and would never talk to me again. That's how I equate what she did ..... that guy/kid my wife was banging contributed to the death of who my ex-wife was. She's gone, he played a large role. And my daughter is spending Thanksgiving with him

That hurts, it just does


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

Marc878 said:


> Basically go your own way.


that's my conclusion BUT I'm not gong to do it in a mean or hateful way. their choices .... I can't see the reason's they made them but they are theirs to make and I feel very very less important than the boy/guy my ex was banging

that's how I feel, because of their choices and their actions and my response .... just kinda fade away

I realize now, nobody needs anybody, family really doesn't matter to most people. I was wrong to ever think it did


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Life isn’t necessarily fair. Sometimes you just have to adjust to it. That is your option.

You don’t owe anyone anything.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

My first wife moved with her AP to a different state. She took my two oldest boys, I kept my youngest daughter. I have spoken to my boys in over 15 years and I’m fine with it. I’ve made peace with it. I hear from my daughter they haven’t made much with their lives and there’s always drama between them and their mother. My oldest has a son (my grandson) whom I’ve never met and he’s six now. I’m totally fine with getting rid of anyone in my life whom is not a friend (family included).


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

RebuildingMe said:


> My first wife moved with her AP to a different state. She took my two oldest boys, I kept my youngest daughter. I have spoken to my boys in over 15 years and I’m fine with it. I’ve made peace with it. I hear from my daughter they haven’t made much with their lives and there’s always drama between them and their mother. My oldest has a son (my grandson) whom I’ve never met and he’s six now. I’m totally fine with getting rid of anyone in my life whom is not a friend (family included).



that's tough man .... really tough, I'm sorry


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Arkansas said:


> how about talking to me about it ?
> 
> "hey Dad, want to spend holiday with mom but guy is going to be there too but that's what it is "
> 
> ...


I cannot even entertain the idea of rape equaling what your wife did, and what should be expected from people around that. So I know what you mean, but it's NOT exceptional for you to be disgusted by him and to cut him out of your life. 

Are you certain that she is going over there to have a relationship with that guy?? It sounds like you are spiraling down a dark hole in your thoughts about her motives for going over there. I have spent plenty of holidays and family visits with people who I couldn't stand, just to be with the relatives that I love. 

The problem with wanting people to be honest with you is that you have to be a truly SAFE person for that to happen...and from what you are posting here, if this is how you react to them, I can see why they would hide things from you. Because you don't come off as a man who is maintaining his own emotional boundaries and needs - you sound like someone who expects other people to protect his feelings above their own...and that is just NOT realistic, in ANY relationship.

You say you don't overreact, but from the things you've been writing on this thread, you are definitely emotionally raw and out-of-control. And no one is going to be open and honest with someone like that.

Again...I am NOT saying that I don't understand your pain...I definitely DO. However, it sounds like you have made what happened and the pain it caused you as the focus of your emotional experience now, even though it's over. You sound like you are clinging to it, and you expect other to do so, as well.

And that is NOT healthy.



Arkansas said:


> So why can't my daughter say "hey, I'm not going to be around that guy because he was 1/2 that affair that ruined a marriage, hurt my Dad deeply and broke apart our family unit"
> 
> *my ex would have to understand that and be ok with it, right ? why isn't that a viable option ? because its what I think I'd do*


This perspective sounds odd to me -- you really think that your ex is going to do something or feel a certain way, just because YOU do? Didn't you say in another post that she acted the opposite of you by cheating with that kid? So why would you think you can again predict her behavior based on what you would do?

And even more, you think you can determine how your daughter conducts herself in order to protect YOU at the expense of her relationship with her mother. You are not being a parent by thinking this way -- a child is NOT supposed to protect their parent, it's the other way around. You should be creating emotional safety for HER to choose what she wants, without the burden of thinking she is going to harm her father by doing so, which is VERY stressful for children (of any age).

It's YOUR job to take care of your own emotions...but you are not doing what you need to do in order to heal. And your daughter rejecting her mother to make you feel better isn't part of that healing. It has to come from YOU.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Arkansas said:


> I don't give 2 schits about the ex
> 
> Its my daughter having a relationship with that guy - well enough to share holiday's with him
> my cousin who is like a sister to me and the relationship she has with my ex
> ...


I don't believe that is what is happening. What you are not seeing is that they aren't choosing your ex-wife's feelings over yours, they are choosing THEIR feelings over yours (which is what always happens underneath all of our choices) -- just like YOU are choosing YOUR feelings over theirs. 

It's what we all do.

I am NOT telling you how to feel. You are free to see this and wallow in your pain for as long as you believe it serves you (although, you are mistaken, it doesn't). I am just trying to shine a light onto the fact that you are not viewing any of this through the proper lens, because you haven't healed property. And that is keeping you IN PAIN.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Arkansas said:


> gawd no, counseling sucked that I went to
> 
> with my daughter, I imagine she's laughing with that guy, hugging him, calling him Dad .... that's irrational, its not really real .... but it IS how I feel
> 
> ...


How many counselors did you try, and for how long? 

And how long has it been since your wife left, and since your divorce was finalized?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Your daughter is 21. A young woman not a child. She has the right to do as she pleases.
You have the same rights. Let them go. Free yourself and concentrate on you.

Ask yourself this. What are you really losing?


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

Probably would have been good to arrange half the day with her mum, and the other half with you. Sorry you are in this situation, you must be devastated. Wish I could have some good advice for you. You have a right to be angry, pissed off and hurt. You were betrayed in the worst way.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

umm... I only told my daughter to have a good Thanksgiving, I didn't say anything else about it. So, i am not emotionally out of control. She's texted me the last two days chatting about a new ball python she got.



LisaDiane said:


> You sound like you are clinging to it, and you expect other to do so, as well.


I don't want to cling to anything. I don't want to dream about it or my ex anymore and I don't want random things to happen that reminds me and I don't want to feel the things I feel .... I don't want any of that anymore. Its draining on so many levels.

you are right - the realization nobody cares has been set pretty hard now ..... that's part of it too. I think i value relationships and family far more than most anyone else does. Oh, they might SAY they do ... but their actions do not match their words

and that's ok - that's their right ..... it just is a reality check to understand it I guess


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

Marc878 said:


> What are you really losing?


well lets count it

in the past 2 years ... I've lost my wife. my #1 person in the world whom I would have died for, would have bet my life would never betray me. I've lost my home, sold it, I know what happened in that house. I lost my future plans, all that revolved around my ex. I lost $125,000 which is a lot for me and the price tag of ridding myself of the ex. I lost my sister in law and her family and I love them dearly. I lost my mother in law. I lost the ability of trusting people, I will never do that again, ever, not totally. I lost who I was as a person in many ways. That adultery impacted every aspect of my life I think, damaging relationships at almost every level. Damaged my belief system too, in people and faith too I think.

a lot to lose for anyone

I have never been a quitter. Down by 24 in with 1 minute left in the basketball game and I'm still trying 100% to win. I lost that. I'll quit and give up now quick on people. I fought so hard to save my marriage - and my ex taught me how to quit. I know now how to do it - that's not a good thing but its a thing I have now. 



I post here some to get feedback, for reality checks .... a sounding board. I'm moving on, with less closeness towards my daughter and my cousin and that's just how I feel right now.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Arkansas said:


> well lets count it
> 
> in the past 2 years ... I've lost my wife. my #1 person in the world whom I would have died for, would have bet my life would never betray me. I've lost my home, sold it, I know what happened in that house. I lost my future plans, all that revolved around my ex. I lost $125,000 which is a lot for me and the price tag of ridding myself of the ex. I lost my sister in law and her family and I love them dearly. I lost my mother in law. I lost the ability of trusting people, I will never do that again, ever, not totally. I lost who I was as a person in many ways. That adultery impacted every aspect of my life I think, damaging relationships at almost every level. Damaged my belief system too, in people and faith too I think.
> 
> ...


*You lost what you thought you had. As you reflect back like most you will probably see things you ignored or overlooked. *
People for the most part don’t change overnight. It just doesn’t happen out of the blue.

Infidelity is very destructive and damaging. Your daughter may very well take after her mother. Kids learn most from their parents. Time will tell.

It may be good for you You to download and read “No More Mr Nice Guy” by glover. It’s a free pdf and short Look it up. Blind trust is never a good idea. *Your life and the people you associate with are totally up to you.*

Read Chumpladys post again. There is a lot of wisdom there. It doesn’t seem like you’ve gotten the full gist of it yet.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ones ego is that unwilling capitulater.
It finds it hard to stay silent, when wronged.

It also finds it hard to understand and accept that other people have egos, their's normally taking preference over your own.

This is basic elementary school teaching.
We must share, we must show others respect.
Don't pick fights, don't involve yourself in others strife.

Most people will follow the path of least resistance, _go-along, to get along.

Most people will follow the crowd, and not seek that outsider position._

You are invested in your life, (as you should) it is most important to you.

Others do not want get involved with drama, not their own.
Other's may not have these same closed thoughts as you, this tight grip you have on fairness.

Yes, they see problems, no they don't want to get involved, they look the other way.
So common, this response to wrong doing seen about them.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Know this...

You have been weighed by others.
Your opinion, your feelings, those views you have on right and wrong, on morality.

Most of those about you blew you off as that old dried up feather.

I agree you have been wronged.

Lick your wounds and start a new chapter of your life, one, far away from these self-absorbed heathens.

Justice sometimes only pours forth from the fountain within, not from the common man's muddied stream.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

SunCMars said:


> You have been weighed by others.
> Your opinion, your feelings, those views you have on right and wrong, on morality.
> 
> Most of those about you blew you off as that old dried up feather.



I guess its just a frickin cold slap to my face and another recalibration to what I have always believed in 

oh and on cue ... my daughter texted and said her rent is going up and how hard it'll be for her to pay it. I simply replied maybe your mom can help and changed the subject.

I know I'm a really good person to have around when you need money, or help moving or emotional support or auto repaired or whatever they need .... how much more value I have I seriously question

thanks for all the replies and advice .... on forums, people speak their minds, truths and its anonymous and people can be truthful and real


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Arkansas said:


> I guess its just a frickin cold slap to my face and another recalibration to what I have always believed in
> 
> oh and on cue ... my daughter texted and said her rent is going up and how hard it'll be for her to pay it. I simply replied maybe your mom can help and changed the subject.
> 
> ...


You can be a good person without getting taken advantage of or walked on.
Case in point. You may not matter much until they need something. Go your own way and let others figure their own problems out.
If you lay around with dogs you wake up with fleas.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> You can be a good person without getting taken advantage of or walked on.
> Case in point. You may not matter much until they need something. Go your own way and let others figure their own problems out.
> If you lay around with dogs you wake up with _fleas._


Or, you wake up after being _fleeced!_

Sometimes, we just need to outgrow those old friends and family members.
I did that, still do.

Admit to yourself that many cannot see the forest for the trees, the nit-wits for the fleas.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Arkansas said:


> how about talking to me about it ?
> 
> "hey Dad, want to spend holiday with mom but guy is going to be there too but that's what it is "
> 
> ...


Does it make any sense to just ghost the whole lot of them and make a new life for YOU? Since for whatever twisted reasoning in their head the recent boy toy matters more, what about just leaving them in their slime and never speaking with them again. It would hurt, but at least they can no longer hurt you.

Spend your money and time on you. The ex already did enough emotional and financial damage for a lifrtime. Next time the daughter asks fir money just tell her mom got all you had to give. Daughter should go ask mom. Full stop.

Grey rock anyone still on speaking terms with any of them.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

hey ... I really appreciate the honest feedback and response

people make choices - like me ex's brother chooses to continue a close relationship with me. I understand if he chooses not to - his sister is his sister. He explained it to me like going through war (he was 6 years combat Afghanistan/Iraq) .... life forges stronger bonds that family sometimes. He very much aligns with me on trust/faith/vows/family ... and what my ex did disgusts him. Even so if he chose his sister over me, I'd kinda understand that because they're siblings. anyway, he invited me to Thanksgiving with his wife and kids, said is my ex didn't like is she could piss off. 

closest thing to sister I have (my cousin) and my daughter .... they've similarly chosen and that's just what it is

the difference of course, I was never the perpetrator, the one that destroyed everything with sin/lies/manipulation/deceit ..... for some reason, my cousin and daughter can overlook that, I cannot

that core difference is going to make me distance myself some from both of them, its simply what I have to do


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Forge ahead. Laying in the victim chair won’t get you a thing. There are decent people out there. Why associate with those that aren’t? You owe nothing to anyone.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

RebuildingMe said:


> My first wife moved with her AP to a different state. She took my two oldest boys, I kept my youngest daughter. I have spoken to my boys in over 15 years and I’m fine with it. I’ve made peace with it. I hear from my daughter they haven’t made much with their lives and there’s always drama between them and their mother. My oldest has a son (my grandson) whom I’ve never met and he’s six now. I’m totally fine with getting rid of anyone in my life whom is not a friend (family included).


I can understand this reasoning. You either have standards, or you don't.

On, those boys and those others you wrote off...

I would not hate them, or have any feelings other than indifference.
If that is even possible.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Do not make someone a priority, who does not make you a priority

Everyone you have listed as a loss, I'm not seeing a loss.

I see people who have little moral fibre and are unwilling to make the tough, correct choices.

It stings and hurts because you care more than they do/did.

It's easy for me as an internet warrior to tell to do x or y or z.

But the reality is, until you recognize that these people are your wants and not needs, it will hurt.

Once your figure this out, you can detach painlessly.

You can always build trust - how you build will be different, but you can always build new. There are good people out there that have the same moral viewpoints as you and won't effectively stab you in the back to step over your body to get to the new shinny thing in front of you.

This chapter in your book of life is now over. Everyone that won't respect you, flip the page to the next chapter in your life and leave them in your history. 

You're better off.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

SunCMars said:


> I can understand this reasoning. You either have standards, or you don't.
> 
> On, those boys and those others you wrote off...
> 
> ...


Agree. I don't hate them, they are just not a part of my life or my thoughts any longer. They have tried to reconnect once or twice, but for disingenuous reasons. I'm not buying.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

So, if I understand it, your XW had an affair with a guy 21 years her junior who had dated your daughter and certain members of your family and friends are accepting of this? Including your daughter?

First thing that comes to my mind is these are so very F'd up people. I cannot imagine on what level they function, intellectually, emotionally etc. Is there inbreeding in your wife's family?


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

Megaforce said:


> So, if I understand it, your XW had an affair with a guy 21 years her junior who had dated your daughter and certain members of your family and friends are accepting of this? Including your daughter?
> 
> First thing that comes to my mind is these are so very F'd up people. I cannot imagine on what level they function, intellectually, emotionally etc. Is there inbreeding in your wife's family?



so yeah, first it was my ex having a study group (she'd gone back go college) and this one kid and another were over maybe 3-4 times a week at my house

understand he was a kid, a year and half older than my daughter and, I had 100% faith and trust in my ex. She'd repeatedly said he was like a son to her, a kid. Anyway yeah, she set him up with my daughter, they texted, dated a couple of times, I think now it was smoke to cover what they were doing on the side. My daughter said only months ago she hated that guy because our family broke because of the affair

and now, she's spending Thanksgiving with my ex and that guy - blows my mind


I think its this new wave thinking of accepting everyone for who they are, as bad and evil as they may be and the unwillingness to cut people out

I'm learning more and more how to cut people out


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Well, on a practical note, if this guy/kid is anywhere near a normal human being( and, I know that is questionable), he'll soon be mortified dating someone so old. Remarkable, actually that your wife is not, as well.
They must be the subject of ridicule among acquaintances. 

Hang in there. You are well rid of this nutcase. Her family, except her brother, must be nuts, too. How F'ing mortifying is this for your daughter? This is off the charts nuts, many standard deviations from normal.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It’s never ok to accept immoral behavior unless you want to become what they are.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

When I divorced I let all friends know that I didn’t expect them to choose a side.

Over the years I have remained friends with all the couples we had for decades.

My exH - over time - ruined his friendships with every couple we ever knew…all on his own.

So now I have fun with all couples without the usual updates from those couples on what my exH had done/said. 

Now my adults kids and I see these different families often - and continue to have loads of fun with all of them.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Drop the daughter. Your feelings should matter more than moms new boy toy.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

Megaforce said:


> Hang in there. You are well rid of this nutcase. Her family, except her brother, must be nuts, too. How F'ing mortifying is this for your daughter? This is off the charts nuts, many standard deviations from normal.


I should have kept a diary of it all - the lying, cheating, the every week continuation of that behavior, the zip drive they exchange, my putting a recording device in her truck and catching her, the GPS tracker I put on her truck .. I lost my mind, I lost myself, the craziness .... it was book material I tell ya !

well obviously my daughter has somehow found a way to justify it ... she spent Thanksgiving with them so ... her and I will find our relationship impacted. I've supported or at least tried to understand everything she's chosen to do ... this thing? It broke me


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

Beach123 said:


> When I divorced I let all friends know that I didn’t expect them to choose a side.


did your bestest friend stay best friend with the ex?


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Arkansas said:


> did your bestest friend stay best friend with the ex?


Yes, for a few years until my exH ruined that friendship.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Arkansas said:


> I guess its just a frickin cold slap to my face and another recalibration to what I have always believed in
> 
> oh and on cue ... *my daughter texted and said her rent is going up and how hard it'll be for her to pay it. I simply replied maybe your mom can help and changed the subject.*
> 
> ...


that is a lesson your daughter had to learn, the hard way.
as parents of grown kids....we do not demand much. call a few times a month. show up at thanksgiving and Christmas, remember our birthday. its not rocket science. but...they seem to get all wrapped up in their own lives and forget family so easily. they need these little reminders from time to time


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