# My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified?



## ConfusedAboutLife

*My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified?*

My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy, pain and shame" justified?

Background:

My wife and I are both about thirty-two and have been married for 8 years. We met 12 years ago and have been together pretty much ever since. We have 2 children. They are boys 3 and 5. I work a lot. I always have. Sometimes 60 hours a week, sometimes 40. It all depends. My job is very demanding and stressful at times. I make a good living and I am proud to be able to support my family. My wife is very intelligent. She has a master’s degree. She is a deep thinker and loves to debate. She gets bored and/or frustrated by the average thinker thus has a hard time making friends. This is especially true in the South as most people don’t share our same views. She has worked at her profession in the past, but now stays at home to raise our children until they go to school. This is what she wanted and I agree. Our marriage has been stressful at times. This is another topic in itself. I will just say that we have not seen eye to eye on many issues in the last 4 years. This caused much tension and heartache for both my wife and I, but we managed to turn a blind eye to our problems, either by going numb to them or relieving our stresses in our own ways. I am faithful and I completely trust that my wife has always been faithful to me. Even with our problems, I am certain that we love and trust each other very much.

The Issue:

About 2 months ago my wife reconnected with an old friend that she knew 10 years ago. I have never met this person. We now live 1000 miles apart. He called one day at the beginning stages of their reconnection while we were driving in the car. He asked, through my wife, if it was ok that they were speaking with one another. “Sure, no problem.” I didn’t even have a second thought about it. They kept communication for the next 2 weeks via facebook, some emails, maybe phone calls, I don’t know. I had no idea how much contact there was. I wasn’t worried about it. During this time I was working 60+ hours a week. My cousin was also scheduled to fly in and visit for 6 days. Very stressful, but it was booked 2 months earlier. As a good host, did not want to ignore my cousin. I get to see him once a year, if that. I worked and played very hard that week. I tried to include my wife and kids during the day and host my cousin at night. That Saturday night, my wife woke me up at about 11 PM. She said that she couldn’t sleep and that she had something to tell me. She told me that she had a sexual dream about this person the night before while I was out with my cousin. Again, “No problem.” I told her that this is completely natural. There is no way to control your dreams, fantasies or your feelings. Don’t worry about a thing. She was relieved and she said “That is what HE told me when I told HIM about it.” I was immediately taken aback. I was crushed. I asked her why she shared this with him, another man. She said that it was because I simply wasn’t there. I was out with my cousin. We talked about it for an hour or so. Because of my hurt feelings I had to dig deeper to find out what kind of relationship they really had. During this conversation I learned that she also revealed to him that she had had a sudden increase in sex drive and that this was partially triggered by their reconnection. This was something that I noticed a couple weeks earlier, but I thought that it was great. She explained to me that they were just friends and that is all that they ever been. In fact they made a pact years ago that they would never sleep with each other. She said that she does not find him attractive at all. They just have a lot in common. They love to debate about off the wall topics. They connect on an intellectual level. He is currently unemployed so she was helping him with his resume. He is bored and has a lot of time on his hands. He also has some emotional problems. My wife, being a therapist, misses doing that kind of work and wanted to help him through his issues. My wife has been working hard on a book that she is writing. She has little experience doing this so he was reading it and giving her notes. I can relate very little to the subject of her book. Although I am very supportive, I am still an a$$hole for not finding the time to read all of it and help her in any way that I can. I realize that now. She asked about meeting up with him the next time she went back that way. She travels without me from time to time. I did not like this idea at all. I told her how all of these situations made me feel the best that I could at the time. I was shaken up and confused. I told her that I would be able to think more clearly in the morning. We slept on all of this.

I felt no better in the morning. I was so saddened and hurt that she would share intimate details with another man. Especially the man that was the trigger of the sexual feelings. Thoughts are in my mind. “How should I deal with this?” “Am I being ridiculous?” “Am I blowing this out of proportion?” “Will this feeling last only 1 day and be gone tomorrow?” “What if the roles were reversed? How would she feel?” I know that I have ZERO female friends that I would speak to about sexual matters, especially if they were the subject of the matter. Single or married, it would change the entire relationship. All of my female friends are linked to me through my male friends (girlfriends, wives, etc.). I care about them, but I would have no reason keep in contact with any of them on a near daily basis. I told her all of this. I knew that telling her that she could not speak to this person any longer would be a terrible move. It would be controlling. It would make me look like some sort of macho man, brute, jealous type of guy and that is far from who I am. I have never felt one ounce of jealousy in the first 12 years in our relationship that didn’t subside in 10 seconds. My decision... I told her that she knew how this situation made me feel and that she needed to think about it and do what she thought was right.

Unfriend. She immediately cut all ties with a short explanation and a goodbye on facebook. I was somewhat relieved but I knew that there would be a period of anger. In a way, I forced her into making a decision, which is still controlling. It took one day for the anger to come out. She cried and wanted to know why I was able to choose her friends. During all of our past hardships she simply looked the other way at all of the things that I have done to hurt her. Good point. We discussed our past problems in length and I realized that the problems were far worse than I was aware of. I was oblivious for 4 YEARS! I keep things bottled up for long periods of time. I made a decision that day to change many things in my life. I need to give my wife and children the attention that they deserve. To be the husband that my wife needs. To communicate perfectly and share our feelings. I know that I cannot correct the past issues, but I am through with ignoring them. I have kept this up since that day. It is simple to do and I love it. I thought that my effort and time might heal her feeling of being controlled. Ups and downs for a little over a week and a lot of talking. She amended her story and told me that she never really told him about the dream. I don’t know what to think. That didn’t help me. I was still a mess. I couldn’t eat, or sleep properly. I couldn’t think at work and I was in the middle of leading the hottest job of my life. I spoke with two of my trusted friends about the issue and she spoke to one of hers. This got us nowhere. My friends agreed with me and hers agreed with her. I explained the situation in a very unbiased way, taking her feelings into consideration. I really just wanted someone to tell me that I was being ridiculous, but that didn’t happen. So, finally a possible resolution. I know that my wife was desperate to speak with this person. She wanted to do one thing for closure. She asked if she was “allowed” call him to say sorry and thank you. I told her “Absolutely. You are allowed to do whatever you want.” If that is what will make you feel better go right ahead. I am trying to convey that this was her decision. I am not the controlling guy. Then I said “Talking to this person does not bother me at all. It is having a close relationship given the information that has been already shared.” Bad mistake on my part. What I meant was, talking to any person doesn’t bother me. This one still bothered me. She took this to mean that it was ok to talk to him as long as she didn’t share anymore intimate details and I would be fine with it.

Facebook messages started up again immediately. I don’t know how much contact is happening, but I know what is running through my mind. I am feeling worse than ever, but she seems happy. Sex is great and I am trying to smile through the pain of being replaced every morning as soon as I leave for work to support my family. I can’t keep up that facade long. We were talking about it daily and it seemed like beating a dead horse. My pain is turning to anger at this point because I can’t understand why this person is so important to her. I am wondering why she doesn’t care about my pain. I conclude that it is payback from all of the times in the past that I have ignored her feelings. The fact that I realize that we have hurt each other in the past and that I have made every effort to completely change my ways and I am trying my best to be the perfect husband, seems to be moot. I finally asked her how much contact she is having with this person. Her: Not much. Me: Everyday? Her: No. Not conversations everyday. She told me that I can read her messages if I’d like. I said that I did not want to pry in her business. She went to bed and emotions and curiosity got the best of me. I picked up her iPad and there was facebook. I did not read the messages. I didn’t want to. I just wanted to know the frequency. I just scrolled through the last 4 days since they were speaking again. I scrolled and scrolled and scrolled. A couple days weren’t bad, although I could see that the messages were time stamped at 8AM as soon as she wakes up. On that current day there were nearly 700 messages! I rough counted in multiples of 10. From the time that she woke until I got home from work. I was again crushed and this time, a bit mad. 

The next day I am useless at work and wondering how long I can keep this up without being fired. I called her that morning and immediately told her what I had done. I felt guilty but she did give me permission to read her conversation and I didn’t even do that. We spoke on the phone for well over an hour and again I pleaded with her to tell me why this person was so important to her. Why so much conversation? It is only innocent conversation over facebook, but what if the same innocent conversation was happening on a nearly day to day basis in my living room. I know that it is different, but I am trying to find a way to make her see my point. I told her that the level of contact is just too much. Again we resolve very little and I try to get my head together. When I got home that night I had a solution. My wife and I having the same conversation over and over was getting us nowhere. After all there was a third party involved. I wonder what he has to say about the matter. So I asked for his phone number. I explained to my wife that I was just going to tell him how I felt about the situation and that was it. No anger. I called and we spoke for 30 minutes. I explained to him how the closeness and frequency of their relationship made me feel. How I felt that he was picking up where I leave off every morning when I leave for work. I told him that there was certainly a sexual attraction when they knew each other long ago. My wife is a beautiful person and if there wasn’t then he was a fool. He did not deny this. I was completely calm and unbiased in this conversation. My wife was very uneasy because I went outside to have this conversation although I knew that she was standing around the corner. I could see her shadow. In closing I told him to call my wife and talk it through with her. I never once even implied that I was ousting him from her life. He did not call my wife. He sent her a message 1 minute later stopping any further contact. My wife blamed me and asked me if I was happy that I got what I wanted. I told her what the conversation consisted of and told her that I absolutely did not make that decision for him. I asked her to call him. She did and they had short conversation. I don’t know what was confirmed or denied.

Now, three weeks later, emotions have worked a full circle and she is back to anger over being controlled. We had another conversation last night and talked through why she is so angry. Many things came out about her control issues in the past. I am thinking that it is deeper than just this issue. My presence is now making her anxious. She said that she needs time and space. She is misinterpreting my new closeness to her as control and clinginess. I swear that it is love. She is still mad about my screw ups in the past and I try to remind her that we had both done things to complicate our marriage. I do not want to blame her for anything though. She is convinced that I “got my way” on this issue. She is also convinced that I don’t trust her. I have told her and tried to explain how much I do trust her 50 times since this started. She feels that I get to pick her friends and that our relationship is leading to a controlling one which she wants no part of. She has been there. This is our first “control” issue in 12 years. I think that this was not a win/lose situation. Just 2 people with hurt feelings that need to find a way to get over this. All I know is that when she feels bad, I feel bad. I don’t want either of us to feel bad anymore.

I need to know...

Was I wrong from the start? Should I have ignored my feelings and done nothing?

Am I a ridiculously jealous person?

Could I have handled this in a way to make it less of a control issue for her?


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## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

What a wall of text. Here is a short answer. NO you are not ridiculous, and you should be jealous. 

Do you know what emotional needs are? Your wife is getting an emotional need filled by her 'Friend" instead of you. Does she have that much communication with you, her husband? 

This is an emotional affair. Do you know what and EA is? 
Google it. Or better go to this site Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends", read the book and have her take the quiz.

Read this book too, learn what emotional need are. 

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley: 9780800719388: Amazon.com: Books

Act quickly, the longer you wait the harder it will be to handle. Your marriage is at risk.


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## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



anchorwatch said:


> What a wall of text. Here is a short answer. NO you are not ridiculous, and you should be jealous.
> 
> Do you know what emotional needs are? Your wife is getting an emotional need filled by her 'Friend" instead of you. Does she have that much communication with you, her husband?
> 
> This is an emotional affair. Do you know what and EA is?
> Google it. Or better go to this site Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends", read the book and have her take the quiz.
> 
> Read this book too, learn what emotional need are.
> 
> His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley: 9780800719388: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Act quickly, the longer you wait the harder it will be to handle. Your marriage is at risk.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Sorry, I just skimmed, but the fact of the matter is that when people are married, opposite sex friends should be OFF THE TABLE. Period.

Not Just Friends is a book you and you wife NEED to read. Very very soon.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Tell her you love her and you want her, but you can't share her with another man. Then it's her choice. That's really all there is to it. 

She may have to seek out her fantasy and then realize he wasn't really all that; in the meantime, she'll have lost you.

DO go out TODAY and get Not Just Friends and read it; start reading passages to her. She may pretend she's not listening, but she'll hear it and recognize herself in it.

As soon as you're through with that, get His Needs Her Needs so you can pull the damn marriage back together.


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## F-102

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Time for me to dust off one of my old posts. It was originally written to a man whose W had reconnected with an old flame on F**kbook:

Right now, the texts/conversations may very well be innocent, but soon they will morph into:

Their lives since they parted
Their relationships since they parted
Their families
Their spouses
You 
How you're an excellent father
How you're a great husband
How you're a wonderful guy
Your job
How your job keeps you busy
How your job keeps you away
How she sometimes feels lonely when you're away
How she sometimes feels a little taken for granted
How she sometimes feels a little overburdened at home
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to her
How she feels that you don't always understand her
How she sometimes feels like you're "not there" for her
How...okay, you're not ALWAYS such a great guy
How she love hearing from him
How she loves talking to him again
How she looks forward to his texts/calls/e-mails now
How she feels young again
How she feels attractive again
How she feels appreciated again
How it's been so, so long since you made her feel that way
How her eyes have now been opened
How she now realizes what she truly wants and needs
How she realizes that you could never give her that
How she now realizes that she "settled" for you
How insensitive you can be sometimes
How you can be a real jerk sometimes
How she wonders if they would have stayed together
How she now realizes that she never really loved you
How she now realizes that she really loved him all along
How she could ever have fallen for a jerk like you
How you're the biggest ******* she's ever known
How you're standing in the way of her true happiness
How you ruined her life
How she made a big mistake marrying you
How she made an even bigger mistake letting him get away
How they were really meant to be together
How she desperately has to get away from you
How she's definitely leaving you
How she's already talking to divorce lawyers
How they're going to live happily ever after...

...get the picture?


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## F-102

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Time to get your ass in gear and get your head out of it. Your W is in an emotional affair (EA) with him, and she is already rewriting history and blaming you for her perceived sorry state your marriage has got to. And worst of all, you are falling into her trap.

You have to put you foot down and tell her that she is risking her marriage, family and happy home because of this man. She is already playing the "controlling" card on you (classic response from a cheater who refuses to accept responsibility for their actions).


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## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> Tell her you love her and you want her, *but you can't share her with another man. Then it's her choice. That's really all there is to it.*
> 
> She may have to seek out her fantasy and then realize he wasn't really all that; in the meantime, she'll have lost you.
> 
> DO go out TODAY and get Not Just Friends and read it; start reading passages to her. She may pretend she's not listening, but she'll hear it and recognize herself in it.
> 
> As soon as you're through with that, get His Needs Her Needs so you can pull the damn marriage back together.


This...do this...I did with my H and believe me, I'm so glad I did. I believe I'd have at least an EA on my hands if I hadn't put the kibosh on this as soon as I found out about the contact. And follow up; don't assume that contact will end right away, as my H's 'friend' tried reaching him 18 months after their last contact...his weak protests got followed up by a letter from me. Take the bull by the horns if you have to.


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## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Seems to me your reaction was natural. Maybe she mentioned the dream to you to make you jealous, and even more so by saying she'd talked about it to _him._ Might have been because you were spending so much time with your cousin and working, and she was jealous of that.

It's a good sign that she wasn't trying to hide anything from you really--although she may've bended the truth some. It sounds like she was bored or lonely and just wanted some entertaining conversation, and she probably knew he was attracted to her and that made her feel good.

You weren't wrong at all to tell her it bothered you. She probably wanted to hear that and for you to step in at least that much... I don't know about talking to him on the phone though--not that you meant it to be controlling, but that may have stepped on her toes and taken the power to decide away from her. If she'd chosen to break off talking with him on her own--which I have a hunch she would have, guilt getting the better of her--that wouldn't have left you both feeling so bad. 

It sounds like you love her very much and this kind of thing would make anyone jealous and a bit suspicious. Course I don't know both sides and can only go by what you've written, but my advice would be that from now on, stay out of it. Don't go through her messages. Trust she'll do the right thing. Be especially sweet to her for a while, and above all respect her space, but don't leave her bored or lonely if she wants to talk with you or go out. That and wait for her to come around is really all you can do. I wouldn't try and take back anything you've said to her about being jealous though because it was honest and she's gotta know she was doing the wrong thing. Hope that helps in some way.


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## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> my advice would be that from now on, stay out of it. Don't go through her messages. Trust she'll do the right thing. Be especially sweet to her for a while, and above all respect her space, but don't leave her bored or lonely if she wants to talk with you or go out. That and wait for her to come around is really all you can do.


Worst advice ever.


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## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

It is good advice if you want to improve the relationship. No one here can say she wasn't justified in wanting (or _needing_) some interesting conversation, and this was an old friend. It seems to me she was kind of using this person. From the way the post sounded, her and her husband are still very much in love and I think that my advice was the loving way to handle it. Putting his foot down and giving ultimatums (aka putting her "in her place") discounts her side of it completely, and her side may have been just as valid.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> If she'd chosen to break off talking with him on her own--which I have a hunch she would have, guilt getting the better of her--


You mean, after the *700* texts _per day_?

Right.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> It is good advice if you want to improve the relationship. No one here can say she wasn't justified in wanting (or _needing_) some interesting conversation, and this was an old friend. It seems to me she was kind of using this person. From the way the post sounded, her and her husband are still very much in love and I think that my advice was the loving way to handle it. Putting his foot down and giving ultimatums (aka putting her "in her place") discounts her side of it completely, and her side may have been just as valid.


 No offense, but you need to do more reading about emotional affairs and how prevalent they are. Or spend more time here and you will see that what you propose works - in about 1 out of every 500 affairs.


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## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> It is good advice if you want to improve the relationship. No one here can say she wasn't justified in wanting (or _needing_) some interesting conversation, and this was an old friend. It seems to me she was kind of using this person. From the way the post sounded, her and her husband are still very much in love and I think that my advice was the loving way to handle it. Putting his foot down and giving ultimatums (aka putting her "in her place") discounts her side of it completely, and her side may have been just as valid.


Yeah, sorry, but this is a very prevalent attitude for those who don't have any experience with cheaters, and it's always the totally wrong approach.


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## RClawson

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Mule = Rookie


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## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Sometimes I wish that I was a rookie! I hate having this info and I hate having to pass it along to innocent people who STILL FEEL BAD because they think they're being controlling and jealous.

Sometimes, you NEED to be controlling...but control yourself and erect your OWN boundaries because as we all know (well, some of us) you can't change someone else.


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## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Your wife is having an emotional affair, pure and simple.

You did good raising your concerns and having her stop,

You totally undermined your marriage when you let her start back up the EA.

As has been said, you both need to read Not Just Frends ASAP.

Buy two copies so you can read at the same time.

She must stop all contact with him. Forever. She is getting deeper and deeper into the EA. her wanting space is her wanting you to back off because you are crowding her relationship with him.

If she gets to visit him, it will become a PA. She's already told both of you that he is getting her horny and sexual. Your just the warm body she uses to take care of herself, he is the one she wants at the moment.

Be very careful that it doesn't go underground using a burner phone , secret email, secret texting apps.


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## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> Sometimes I wish that I was a rookie! I hate having this info and I hate having to pass it along to innocent people who STILL FEEL BAD because they think they're being controlling and jealous.


Me too. It sucks so bad, and seeing the same thing happen over and over and over can be so disheartening.


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## RClawson

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Confused,

We all make mistakes. When I look back at years 2-6 of my marriage I wonder how my wife stayed with me, I mean what an a$$hole I was. I really think I let her and the two kids down. 

Your wife is obviously a bright educated women and evidently has a counseling background so she should be honest about this situation which is completely separate from any past sins she believes you have committed. Just because a spouse exhibits bad behavior that does not give the offended party license for irresponsible behavior just an excuse.

She is obviously frustrated and had an escape from the mundane. Understandable but not likely wise. Time to drill down, reaffirm your committment for one another and discuss boundaries. 

May I suggest that you help her find an outlet for a bit more social stimulation. I have not doubt that she could be a great resource for some volunteer opportunities. Maybe she could start getting prepared to do online therapy and phone therapy. My counselor lives about 1200 miles away and she is fantastic. Just some food for thought.


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## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Oh and give up the idea that either you or her should have private secrets from the other, especially in the form of relationships with members of the opposite sex.

And "controlling?" Really? When is refusing to let the person who has made a lifetime commitment to you, develop a romantic emotional affair with anther man controlling or wrong?

It's called defending you marriage and you need to get busy doing it, with out any second thoughts or appologies.


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## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> Seems to me your reaction was natural. Maybe she mentioned the dream to you to make you jealous, and even more so by saying she'd talked about it to _him._ Might have been because you were spending so much time with your cousin and working, and she was jealous of that.
> 
> It's a good sign that she wasn't trying to hide anything from you really--although she may've bended the truth some. It sounds like she was bored or lonely and just wanted some entertaining conversation, and she probably knew he was attracted to her and that made her feel good.
> 
> You weren't wrong at all to tell her it bothered you. She probably wanted to hear that and for you to step in at least that much... I don't know about talking to him on the phone though--not that you meant it to be controlling, but that may have stepped on her toes and taken the power to decide away from her. If she'd chosen to break off talking with him on her own--which I have a hunch she would have, guilt getting the better of her--that wouldn't have left you both feeling so bad.
> 
> It sounds like you love her very much and this kind of thing would make anyone jealous and a bit suspicious. Course I don't know both sides and can only go by what you've written, but my advice would be that from now on, stay out of it. Don't go through her messages. Trust she'll do the right thing. Be especially sweet to her for a while, and above all respect her space, but don't leave her bored or lonely if she wants to talk with you or go out. That and wait for her to come around is really all you can do. I wouldn't try and take back anything you've said to her about being jealous though because it was honest and she's gotta know she was doing the wrong thing. Hope that helps in some way.


If she had boundaries and respected his fears he wouldn't have to "Put his foot down"

Mule, before you advise someone who's marriage has been breached by a third party read the books suggested to the OP. Study the subject. Read, listen and watch the number of post that give your advice.


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## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Wazza sticks his head up and prepares for it to be shot at 

You right to be concerned but I think your strategy is wrong.

First thing. You have to fix your relationship. If you think you can ignore her needs and then just beat off anyone else who wants to meet them, you are crazy.

Second, decide as a couple what you think about opposite sex friends. While I have friends of both sexes my it happens that my best friends, the ones I discuss intimate details of my life with, are female. My wife likewise has a very close male friend at work.

Is there danger in that? Absolutely! My wife had an affair some years ago...emotional and physical....and I get what can happen. But we handle it by agreed boundaries. I will not be alone in private with my female best friend besides my wife, and I have my wifesdv's clear permission to communicate the sort of stuff I do. The friend, likewise has permission from her husband...I have personally spoken to him to ensure that.

I think you have not sought to be controlling, based on what you wrote, but it does look like you aren't communicating well enough. (And you are not alone there. Communicating is hard). People around here will point out that a cheating spouse will often accuse their partner of being to controlling when the partner tries to stop the affair. And they are right, but it doesn't follow that everyone who says "you are too controlling" is cheating.

Finally, a danger sign to watch for...you are at an age where your wife is around her sexual peak and the temptation to be promiscuous wil be strongest.

So I would suggest you talk to your wife about boundaries with opposite sex friends, and I would start not by stating what you think, but by asking what she thinks. I would listen. I would repeat back to her the ideas she has expressed, in your own words, to check that you understood her. Then I would go away and think.

I would give her this URL and I would read it and ask her to read it, and I would talk about it:

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

If it resonates, read the book it plugs. Your message here is, we need to be aware of this possibility. And by th way...there is just as much danger of you cheating. You know that, right?

Maybe also read the Glass book. I haven't yet but most people here speak highly of it.

Based on that I would then talk and agree boundaries.

Your wife is entitled to her opinions. She is a bright woman. Treat her as an equal and a partner and work though things together.

You are hopefully fortunate. By the time I realised the state my marriage was in my wife was already in the affair. It was much harder to come back from that. You seem to be at the point where there is a relationship that could become an emotional affair, and maybe is in the early stages of it. But your wife doesn't seem to be that carried away, at least not yet. And believe me, you don't want to go there...it is stunning how an affair changes be personality of the cheating spouse. 

Oh, and seven hundred texts? Well, they are conversing right. If she said they had lunch and talked for a couple of hours, would you assume there was an affair? Maybe if they were doing it every day you might worry. But look at it this way. If they converse, and in average take 10 seconds for each exchange they make, in 2 hours they will have 720 exchanges. (6 per minute, 360 per hour). I've never counted, but when I talk to my best non-wife friend on line I might have hit that number. 

Bottom line, yes be careful, but work on your relationship and don't take it for granted. Set aside half an hour to an hour a day to rub your wife's feet and talk to her, and you will soon get the oxytocin flowing in a way that Mr Facebook cannot match.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Shaggy said:


> Oh and give up the idea that either you or her should have private secrets from the other, especially in the form of relationships with members of the opposite sex.


Very important point in my view...and applies equally to you.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



anchorwatch said:


> If she had boundaries and respected his fears he wouldn't have to "Put his foot down"
> 
> Mule, before you advise someone who's marriage has been breached by a third party read the books suggested to the OP. Study the subject. Read, listen and watch the number of post that give your advice.


Hmmm...vent.

There are lots of people on TAM who don't know what they are talking about but spout the TAM orthodoxy.Number of posts is no indicator of the quality of ideas. Indeed, people who just spout the orthodoxy verbatim might be showing they haven't thought about it much, but are merely parrots. Quantity of posts is no proof of quality.

I may be one who doesn't know what I am talking about. Dunno, but my wife did have an actual affair and we did actually reconcile. So I will assert I at least know something from my own experiences. But you are welcome to disagree 

Mule is entitled to put his ideas forward. It would be more helpful to explain why you think he is wrong and discuss it, rather than just saying in effect "shut up". If he follows your advice, and shuts up, guess what, the count of posts agreeing with you goes up, but not because anything is more or less true, but just because you are censoring other opinions!

Is it not thought provoking that there are people on this board giving marriage advice who have never been married? People giving advice in infidelity who have never experienced it? But they have read Shirley Glass!


OP, the people on this board have all sorts of different experiences, and all sorts of different values. Try an understand the background of people whose advice most resonates with you, so you get where they are coming from. Don't listen to anyone and just assume they are always right...unless it's me of course


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Now, now Wazza. Was it that harsh? It's not for Mule to shut up, just stop look and listen, no burn the witch here.


----------



## NextTimeAround

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> Sometimes I wish that I was a rookie! I hate having this info and I hate having to pass it along to innocent people who STILL FEEL BAD because they think they're being controlling and jealous.
> 
> Sometimes, you NEED to be controlling...but control yourself and erect your OWN boundaries because as we all know (well, some of us) you can't change someone else.


I feel quite the opposite actually. I feel that there are a lot of women out there who are very savvy and who know how to put the breaks on predatory women and even non-predatory women who just overstepped things without intention.

Yes, I have to admit that there were times when I couldn't understand why a certain wife was bristling while I was speaking to her husband. And now I know why even though I had no intentions. But I am more careful now.

And I wish that I had been as savvy as these other women I'm referring to.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



anchorwatch said:


> Now, now Wazza. Was it that harsh? It's not for Mule to shut up, just stop look and listen, no burn the witch here.


Maybe I am over reacting. 

I read the second para I quoted as saying that Mule should not speak until he had read certain things, and the implication was that he hadn't. No problem with anyone shooting down Mule's ideas, but do it by engaging with the ideas, not by dismissing the author as ignorant.

You say I misread you. I apologise..you know what was in your head.

Admittedly my post then went well beyond that point, but again it bears consideration. Not going to name individual posters, but any regular on TAM should have seen examples of what I cited, I think.

Sorry for the comment that borders on a thread jack.

Being once told by someone that they had never experienced infidelity, but that their reading of TAM qualified them to have a better understanding of how it feels to be cheated on than the understanding I got from my wife's six month affair ,made me see everything I read here in a new light.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

------------ TO ALL ------------

Thank you so much for the input. It is hard to read some of these responses, but it makes me feel better. I guess it is hard to comment 100% accurately because her feelings both past and present are missing from the story. I also truly believe that there is no way that she would have physically cheated with this person. Her argument is that she really does have a hard time making friends. 

Thank you all. It is hard to decipher which who are professionals, who are very experienced on the issue, and who is cheated person scorned. I very much appreciate the comments whoever you are. I should have done this 2 months ago. Please keep them coming. Your input helps.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> ------------ TO ALL ------------
> 
> Thank you so much for the input. It is hard to read some of these responses, but it makes me feel better. I guess it is hard to comment 100% accurately because her feelings both past and present are missing from the story. I also truly believe that there is no way that she would have physically cheated with this person. Her argument is that she really does have a hard time making friends.
> 
> Thank you all. It is hard to decipher which who are professionals, who are very experienced on the issue, and who is cheated person scorned. I very much appreciate the comments whoever you are. I should have done this 2 months ago. Please keep them coming. Your input helps.


Do the reads suggested, those authors are the professionals.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> ------------ TO ALL ------------
> 
> Thank you so much for the input. It is hard to read some of these responses, but it makes me feel better. I guess it is hard to comment 100% accurately because her feelings both past and present are missing from the story. I also truly believe that there is no way that she would have physically cheated with this person. Her argument is that she really does have a hard time making friends.
> 
> Thank you all. It is hard to decipher which who are professionals, who are very experienced on the issue, and who is cheated person scorned. I very much appreciate the comments whoever you are. I should have done this 2 months ago. Please keep them coming. Your input helps.


Don't assume she is immune to cheating. No one ever thinks it will happen to them. There is a real danger there, in my view. Don't go ballistic, but don't ignore the danger either.


----------



## piggyoink

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

isn't it better that its sort of out in the open on facebook rather than turning into something (stealth?)


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

piggyoink said:


> isn't it better that its sort of out in the open on facebook rather than turning into something (stealth?)


Yes. And I am glad that she told me everything. But when the conversation goes from "Can I read your book. I'd love to give you notes," and "You are having emotional problem's. Let me help you with that," to "I had sex with you in a dream" and "For some reason my sex drive has been off the charts. Maybe it has something to do with our reconnection," I start to worry. Whether she thought that she did something wrong or not, I don't believe she did think that, it became a problem for me. I really think that she was being naive. It resulted in a feeling that I cannot live with. It also armed another man with information that he may or may not know what to do with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Dude, is she sending YOU 700 texts in one day?

500?

250?

100?

50?

If it walks like a duck...

Protect your marriage. Read the books. Learn that she is now an ADDICT. She is ADDICTED to the PEA chemicals flowing through her brain and body now that another man is chasing her. It's addicting and it is ALL SHE THINKS ABOUT. You said it yourself: 8am - the very MINUTE she is free to contact him, she does.

Protect HER from her addiction. Get the third person out of your marriage. THEN you can go back and fix what's wrong with it.

You are on a speeding train and you get only ONE CHANCE to stop it from crashing into a brick wall - where it will leave you moving out of your house while your wife keeps it with your kids, who you see every other weekend, and she moves her new 'man' in.

Is this the only possible outcome? No. But it's happened more than I care to remember. All because the man is afraid to stand up to his wife and seem 'mean.'

(and btw, no I am not a betrayed spouse, so no bitter from me; just frustration watching people afraid to act)


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> Dude, is she sending YOU 700 texts in one day?
> 
> 500?
> 
> 250?
> 
> 100?
> 
> 50?


No. When I am at work, I am working. I do think that text messaging is very convenient, but I always viewed it as kid stuff. I mean when you are sending 1000 in a day and your phone is stuck your hand and constantly chiming. I have 200 texts per MONTH on my plan. I call her once a day to find out how her day is going. At least I used to. Now I have to do far more (calls, texts, FB messaging) in order to keep up with the Jones'. This is not the only reason for the increased communication on my part though. As I said, I have turned over a new leaf and trying to be much more attentive of her needs.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I thought the disagreement with Mule was a little intense too! As a forum newb, but not a life newb, I have some of the same views as he does. 

The closest my husband and I have come to ending our relationship was over this kind of thing. He has jealousy issues that he continues to work on to this day, with occasional relapses. 

I think your wife was way out of line on this one, and would've been even if this was a female friend (assuming totally hetero orientation). There's no need to get THAT close with someone else while your partner is still very much in the picture. Add the sexual attraction and inappropriate disclosure? Over the top. 

But: I wouldn't pull out all the stops as many here are advising. My husband had some strong opinions about my male relationships, and I acquiesced in order to maintain the peace. It was a terrible decision. As my resentment built, my affection for my husband decreased. Our big problem had lots of baby problems. And then, avalanche. 

We did some MC with mixed results, but the best thing we did was set boundaries that we are both ok with. And with the proviso that these will change in time, and we readjust as needed. 

For example: I maintain relationships with male friends and coworkers, some closely. I do not discuss my relationship with my husband with them, beyond the trivial. I do not stay out with one male friend/coworker at night at the end of a party or for any other reason. I tell my husband about my relationships. 

If my husband had been unable to be flexible on this, our marriage would absolutely and with out a doubt be over. 

Additionally, when my relationship with my husband was at its worst in terms of his control over my relationships, it made me almost want to have an affair, just to take control back. (Something I've never wanted to do before or since). 

I agree that you should discuss with your wife. Do not treat her like a problem to be solved, you are both active partners in this. If she doesn't participate in the solution then you have a bigger problem. 

Going extreme and controlling is not the solution.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Yes, you will have to. In the meantime, however, you have to STOP them communicating. Find an article about emotional affairs. Print it out. Hand it to her. Ask her to read it there, right then, while you wait. Then say "I love you. I want you. I know I've not paid you enough attention and I'm fixing that. But I can't continue with you having another man in your life." Then she'll sputter that it's not like that, you're crazy, jealous, etc. Hold up your hand and say "I'm not telling you what to think or do. I'm telling you what *I* must do. And I must take steps to save our marriage, if you won't. So I'm asking you to cut him out of our lives. Now. Today. I need you to write him a letter explaining that it went too far and you need to save your marriage and can't contact each other any more." Then just wait to see what she says.

If she says no, you leave the room, go sit down at the phone, and call her #1 person she cares about. Tell that person what she's doing, ask them to help you save the marriage by talking to her. Sit back and wait a day or so to see if that person talks to her and she decides to write that No Contact letter.

If she doesn't, then you sit down and start calling her parents, siblings, and anyone else she's close to, and ask THEM to talk to her. If you can find it, you also call OM's wife, parents, siblings, and ask them to help. You tell them all that you're just asking for help for a level playing field - of two people, not three. That if she would just let go of him, you two could see if you can save the marriage. If you can't, then you'll willingly walk away. This will show them all that you're level headed, logical, loving, and wanting to do the right thing,.

Once you call them all (don't drag it out), you sit back and wait for the fan/sh*t. She will be FURIOUS at you; she won't get the tough love/intervention connection. No matter. You're just waiting to see if she will choose the right thing. Your marriage can survive her anger; it can't survive another man.

This part may take a while; in the meantime, bust your butt to fix all YOUR problems. Show her what she might throw away. Stay calm, collected, happy, hopeful. Dress great, smell great. Shpw her that you've learned.

And start reading those books!


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I maintain relationships with male friends and coworkers, some closely.


700 texts a day?

She is an addict now, Athena. She needs help getting out of this; she won't do it alone.


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## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Turnera: I agree that her relationship with this man is inappropriate and unacceptable. I'm not defending it, I'm suggesting a more moderate course of action in solving it.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

To clarify, Confused, this man is out of her life now. Is this right? That's what I got from your OP. It seems to me that you're trying to figure out what to do next, to save this issue from causing even more damage than it already has, rather than figuring out ways to get rid of the other guy. I may have missed something through one of the posts since, though.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> 700 texts a day?
> 
> She is an addict now, Athena. She needs help getting out of this; she won't do it alone.


I have one female friend who was a work colleague. We might spend 12 hours a day working together when things were intense, a lot of it alone. That's a lot more than 700 texts worth of communication, way more. But no affair.

Looking at other signs I think it's been caught early enough. I don't think there is a need to be draconian unless talking through it fails.


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Athena1 said:


> To clarify, Confused, this man is out of her life now. Is this right? That's what I got from your OP. It seems to me that you're trying to figure out what to do next, to save this issue from causing even more damage than it already has, rather than figuring out ways to get rid of the other guy. I may have missed something through one of the posts since, though.


Yes. I am sure that they no longer contact each other. I have not asked her, but it was implied and I trust her. What I am almost positive of is that she thinks about him everyday and is extremely angry with me because she can't speak with him. She does not understand why I am not comfortable with it. She doesn't understand that one event can ruin the friendsip that they had, especially if she promises to shy away from that type of dialogue if it ever comes up again. She explained to me that there relationship is strictly friendly. She also told me that "I" had the power to reverse it. With what this man knows about my wife and her feelings, I am not comfortable with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

Wazza said:


> I have one female friend who was a work colleague. We might spend 12 hours a day working together when things were intense, a lot of it alone. That's a lot more than 700 texts worth of communication, way more. But no affair.
> 
> Looking at other signs I think it's been caught early enough. I don't think there is a need to be draconian unless talking through it fails.


I have many female colleagues. I work many hours with them. I have never shared intimate information, about them or otherwise, with any of them. If I couldn't control myself in the workplace, I wouldn't have a job or a wife. I am not willing to risk either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

She also doesn't seem to understand that ONE EVENT can destroy a marriage and a family.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> Turnera: I agree that her relationship with this man is inappropriate and unacceptable. I'm not defending it, I'm suggesting a more moderate course of action in solving it.


I get it, Athena. And the two posters with fewer than 50 posts between them, no offense, are the two posters advocating not taking a hard stance.

While the majority of posters, who average between 2 to 10 years of helping people and have seen it all - and seen what works and what doesn't work (having watched all the people afraid to stand up to their spouses ending up losing those spouses), are telling him that sitting back and waiting for her to act like the wife he thinks he knows, is a mistake.

Do some research. Read some statistics. Learn about the psychology of affairs, the PEA chemicals, the addiction, the willingness to throw away marriage, kids, careers, homes, even families...just to get one more whiff of their fix. 700 posts in a MONTH indicates a serious affair; in a day indicates addiction and she will NOT shake that on her own.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

It sounds like she's not trying to empathize with you right now. Is there an environment that might make her more able to hear you? (And for you to hear her, since it needs to go both ways.) MC is a good controlled environment for some people, though it's not my personal preference.

She needs to stop and really put herself in your shoes, without feeling that she needs to fight back. It takes a big person to be able to stop and try to get an understanding of what her partner is feeling when negative emotions are running this hot. I think she can do it, but it's difficult. 

One thing that I just thought about is that she is saying that you don't trust her, you're saying that you do. It's clear that you don't trust the situation, or else you wouldn't have had the reaction did. (And I think we all agree that you were right not to trust the situation.) It might seem paradoxical and dishonest to your wife when you insist on your trust. 

Can you perhaps explain that it is the man, or the situation, that you did not trust? (I may be projecting here, from my past... I did not believe my husband when he said he trusted me, because his actions were not the actions of a man who trusts. I needed honesty from him before I felt like the conversation was going to be carried out in good faith.) 

Anyway that's just a minor side-thought. 

My main thought was that it might help to consider what might make her feel comfortable enough to get into a more receptive state of mind. I don't think she hears you right now.


----------



## Lyris

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Does she really, truly believe she would be okay with you having a female friend you sent 700 texts A DAY to? If she says she would be she is either BSing, or she doesn't love you. 

You did the right thing, in my opinion. She clearly doesn't want to admit there was any problem, so you're a bit stuck now, unfortunately. The Shirley Glass book is good, and you might find some more advice on EAs in the CWI forum.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

OP, just so you know, most cheaters end up going 'off the wagon' and reconnecting with their affair partner 3 to 6 times before they finally kick the habit, if they do. So you will need to be vigilant.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I have many female colleagues. I work many hours with them. I have never shared intimate information, about them or otherwise, with any of them. If I couldn't control myself in the workplace, I wouldn't have a job or a wife. I am not willing to risk either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't share intimate info with that person as far as I recall.

My best friend wife aside is female. I share intimate stuff with her. For example we discuss our sex lives occasionally, not for amusement but for supporting each other in problems. A man could not support me in the same way since they could not give a woman's perspective. We take other steps to make sure we don't get into affair territory. Including that my wife and her husband are fully aware of and support our relationship.

Not trying to suggest to you what boundaries you and your wife draw. Just that you should agree them together and be very careful that they keep you both well clear of affair territory.


----------



## anonim

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



F-102 said:


> Their lives since they parted
> Their relationships since they parted
> Their families
> Their spouses
> You
> How you're an excellent father
> How you're a great husband
> How you're a wonderful guy
> Your job
> How your job keeps you busy
> How your job keeps you away
> How she sometimes feels lonely when you're away
> How she sometimes feels a little taken for granted
> How she sometimes feels a little overburdened at home
> How she feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to her
> How she feels that you don't always understand her
> How she sometimes feels like you're "not there" for her
> How...okay, you're not ALWAYS such a great guy
> How she love hearing from him
> How she loves talking to him again
> How she looks forward to his texts/calls/e-mails now
> How she feels young again
> How she feels attractive again
> How she feels appreciated again
> How it's been so, so long since you made her feel that way
> How her eyes have now been opened
> How she now realizes what she truly wants and needs
> How she realizes that you could never give her that
> How she now realizes that she "settled" for you
> How insensitive you can be sometimes
> How you can be a real jerk sometimes
> How she wonders if they would have stayed together
> How she now realizes that she never really loved you
> How she now realizes that she really loved him all along
> How she could ever have fallen for a jerk like you
> How you're the biggest ******* she's ever known
> How you're standing in the way of her true happiness
> How you ruined her life
> How she made a big mistake marrying you
> How she made an even bigger mistake letting him get away
> How they were really meant to be together
> How she desperately has to get away from you
> How she's definitely leaving you
> How she's already talking to divorce lawyers
> How they're going to live happily ever after...


How to pick up a married person, brought to you by TAM!


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> I get it, Athena. And the two posters with fewer than 50 posts between them, no offense, are the two posters advocating not taking a hard stance.
> 
> While the majority of posters, who average between 2 to 10 years of helping people and have seen it all - and seen what works and what doesn't work (having watched all the people afraid to stand up to their spouses ending up losing those spouses), are telling him that sitting back and waiting for her to act like the wife he thinks he knows, is a mistake.
> 
> Do some research. Read some statistics. Learn about the psychology of affairs, the PEA chemicals, the addiction, the willingness to throw away marriage, kids, careers, homes, even families...just to get one more whiff of their fix. 700 posts in a MONTH indicates a serious affair; in a day indicates addiction and she will NOT shake that on her own.


I admit that I am a novice here, and I certainly do not have the same experience as you all do in helping people. 

But I have been in his wife's shoes, nearly. So my experience offers a good counterpoint and is not without a reason. 

And, to clarify, I do not advocate sitting back and letting events unfold. Absolutely not. I think he was right to act as he did. But, in going forward, I think his marriage will be more successful if he takes a more moderate path. 

One thing forums sometimes acquire is a huge collection of wisdom, and unfortunately a little bit of dogma. It is right for there to be disagreement, with reasons given, regardless of the post count of the individual.


----------



## RClawson

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I thought the disagreement with Mule was a little intense too!


Athena,

The main issue that folks here had to Mule's advice was the advice to back off and give space. Is it possible that confused's wife close the book on this guy and never chat again. Absolutely. The pattern that is exposed time and time again here is that she will fall back into the pattern she was in just more secretly. I used to think everyone here made way to many assumptions about what, had or will happen and after a very short time reading these threads I recognized they were right 9 of 10 times.

Everyone wants the OP and his wife to have a successful relationship but in order to do this he will have to be vigilant for the time being to protect their future.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Alright... My next question is, do I tell my wife about this post? Is that a terrible idea? Like I said, I am being honest with her and not bottling up anything any longer. I know that I well tell her that I sought information from here in some way, but how to do it. In a way, I want her to read what is in my original post. It has all of my thoughts and views of the situation laid out in one place. Maybe it would make more sense to her then. This would be great because our conversations seem to be very choppy and go around in circles. On the other hand, I know that she would not want to see 90% of the responses. She would refute nearly all of them, unless they were in her favor. 

This has been very therapeutic for me. Thank you all.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



anonim said:


> How to pick up a married person, brought to you by TAM!


Thank you for the comic releif!


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

You are getting a lot of good advice here. No good will come from your wife's relationship with this man. You have to end it immediately.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> One thing that I just thought about is that she is saying that you don't trust her, you're saying that you do. It's clear that you don't trust the situation, or else you wouldn't have had the reaction did. (And I think we all agree that you were right not to trust the situation.) It might seem paradoxical and dishonest to your wife when you insist on your trust.
> 
> Can you perhaps explain that it is the man, or the situation, that you did not trust? (I may be projecting here, from my past... I did not believe my husband when he said he trusted me, because his actions were not the actions of a man who trusts. I needed honesty from him before I felt like the conversation was going to be carried out in good faith.)


It was made very clear from the start that I know that she did not think that her actions would hurt me. Had she done something deliberate knowing that I was going to be hurt, that is where the trust starts to go away.

I also made it clear, right when the problem first arose, that she did nothing deliberately wrong. I was not mad at her. The problem is that I don't know this person and have no idea what he is going to do with the information that he has now. It is he that I don't trust. I was not trying to spare her feelings by saying this. This is honestly how I felt.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



RClawson said:


> Athena,
> 
> The main issue that folks here had to Mule's advice was the advice to back off and give space. Is it possible that confused's wife close the book on this guy and never chat again. Absolutely. The pattern that is exposed time and time again here is that she will fall back into the pattern she was in just more secretly. I used to think everyone here made way to many assumptions about what, had or will happen and after a very short time reading these threads I recognized they were right 9 of 10 times.
> 
> Everyone wants the OP and his wife to have a successful relationship but in order to do this he will have to be vigilant for the time being to protect their future.


Right, and fair enough. It's right to disagree with his point, but not because he is a newb. Ad hominem often isn't a productive argument stance. 

I think maybe the intent was to draw the OP's attention to the post count, in order to cause him to judge credibility better. 

But (perhaps wrongly) I interpreted some of the replies to imply that newbies' replies are invalid due only to post count. Which is, in my opinion, not necessarilly true. (Though I'll leave it at that because I realise I'm hijacking. Maybe we should start a new thread?)


----------



## Thinkitthrough

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

One of the hardest things about reading a thread such as this one is as the poster thread develops it is clear that he/she is taking the advice but not doing anything with it. Sadly this story if full of red flags, but the impact isn't felt. You might think you are clear and that your wife hears you. Affairs even EAs are not subject to rational thought and the dopamine fog that new love creates can block the ears and the mind to reality. Please, for the sake of your marriage, and before it is too late, deal with it.


----------



## costa200

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Can someone please tell me why many american husbands are so afraid of being called "controlling" that some seem to hand their wives in a platter to another guy to court just so that they can't be called that? What's up with it? Is this something you're taught by your family or is it media pressure or what?


----------



## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Normal people like your wife do not start out one day saying to themself, I'm going to reconnect with an old friend and have an affair. 

People don't decide to become addicted to meth either.

Have you ever met someone who deliberately chose a self destructive addiction?

But yet we know for a fact that people end up with self destructive addictions.

In your wife's case she's gotten hooked on both the positive attention and validation, but also on the little repeated hit her brain gets from each text msg from him.

It's a cycle. She gets a text from him, it makes her feel good because not only is it directed to her meaning he's putting his time and emotions into thinking about her and contacting her, BUT when the text comes in, she is allowed to put on hold for a minute whatever real life crap she is dealing with. Basically, 30 seconds of happy time. 

Then her brain starts returning to its previous state as the hit wears off. 

Then in a bit, another text and another hit of happy.

Oh, and the best part is she knows that if she's ever in need, all she has to do is send just one to him, and he will start sending her more hits.

Right now your wife is going through withdrawal. And like other addictions, the addict will often relapse when they are tired, or stressed, or lonely, or unhappy. 

Ths is why even if you trust her, you need to watch out for her contacting him in secret via a new channel or a new phone. She doesn't see him as a threat, or that what she is doing as dangerous, so in a low moment she may very well decide what you don't know won't hurt you.

She desperately needs to read Not Just Friends. That book may just save your marriage.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Confused, do the reads you were suggested. Then give them to your deep thinking, well educated, 90% of the time right wife to read them too. She might believe the premier authors on the subject, if not you (her husband) or us average thinkers. 

Then while you're educating yourself on the subject of relationships, here's one for you, so you stop walking on eggshells around that pedestal you put her on. No More Mr. Nice Guy

edit; I'm not from the South, but I'd be proud if I was.


----------



## Rob774

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Confused... i would share with her the books mentioned above, but i would not suggest having her read this thread. Because she'll just assume... your point of view... the folks here will side with you.

As your reaction... dude you did the best thing here, it may not seem like it fully now with her reaction, but you probably saved your marriage. Its clear to everyone here, she was having an EA. And alot of times, EA's are worst than PA's. She was so caught up in the fog, that she didn't realize what she was doing was wrong. And don't believe for a second that she she didn't share with him about the sexual dream like she initially blurted out. That to me, was a HUGE Red Flag. If i'm a guy, who is flirting around with a chick and she tells me this, my ego goes through the roof. U said he seemed like an ok guy when you talked to him, OK acting guys go after people's wives too. His intention may never been to hook up with your wife, especially considering the distance. That doesn't mean that his emotional needs weren't being met either.


----------



## WyshIknew

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



RClawson said:


> Mule = Rookie


Mule could = Doc cool


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> I didn't share intimate info with that person as far as I recall.
> 
> My best friend wife aside is *female. I share intimate stuff with her. For example we discuss our sex lives occasionally, not for amusement but for supporting each other in problems.* A man could not support me in the same way since they could not give a woman's perspective. *We take other steps to make sure we don't get into affair territory.* Including that my wife and her husband are fully aware of and support our relationship.
> 
> Not trying to suggest to you what boundaries you and your wife draw. Just that you should agree them together and be very careful that they keep you both well clear of affair territory.


If this works for you and your wife, great, but you do realize that this is not the norm, and that most people, wouldn't be OK with this...I certainly wouldn't be! 

And I just have to ask...if you're actively taking steps to avoid going into affair territory...isn't that a little risky? Sounds to me as though the entire scenario should be avoided. You seem one 'step' away from slipping! Again, JMO, and no disrespect intended. It's just a foreign concept to me.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

anchorwatch said:


> edit; I'm not from the South, but I'd be proud if I was.


I did not mean to knock people from the south. Also intelligence has nothing to do with my comment, if that is what was implied.. The problem comes from religion. It seem that every conversation quickly works its way to religion. I am very open minded to other people's ways of thinking, but once they find out that I am atheist, I'm not very popular anymore. This seems to be even more of an issue with women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I admit that I am a novice here, and I certainly do not have the same experience as you all do in helping people.
> 
> But I have been in his wife's shoes, nearly. So my experience offers a good counterpoint and is not without a reason.
> 
> And, to clarify, I do not advocate sitting back and letting events unfold. Absolutely not. I think he was right to act as he did. But, in going forward, I think his marriage will be more successful if he takes a more moderate path.
> 
> One thing forums sometimes acquire is a huge collection of wisdom, and unfortunately a little bit of dogma. It is right for there to be disagreement, with reasons given, regardless of the post count of the individual.


I have to disagree with you. The OP did the right thing and was more "measured" than I was when I went through a similar though less serious situation. Long story short, I caught my wife exchanging e-mails with an ex boyfriend from HS. They were in the middle of the second round of e-mails when I found out and I deleted his emails, his address and blocked him on FB and at the ISP. Then a few days after I did that, I told my wife what I did and explained that if she wants to have even benign relationships with an ex or have male friends, she has to exit the marriage. Drastic, I know, but necessary. Opposite sex friends are not healthy for a marriage, period.


----------



## F-102

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

And you might want to ask her what her reaction would be if it was YOU reconnecting with an ex on F**kbook.

She'll probably blow it off and say "I wouldn't care, because I'm not controlling and abusive like YOU!"

But trust me, in reality, she would be having a royal kimchi fit.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

Rob774 said:


> Confused... i would share with her the books mentioned above, but i would not suggest having her read this thread. Because she'll just assume... your point of view... the folks here will side with you


Thank you for answering my question... And for the other info. Very helpful. But what about printing out the original post for her to read? We both know what happened. True. Til this point it has been impossible for me to convey all of this information to her at one time. My brain could not handle this without rehearsing and using note cards. Also, her rebuttles would get in the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

anchorwatch said:


> What a wall of text. Here is a short answer. NO you are not ridiculous, and you should be jealous.
> 
> Do you know what emotional needs are? Your wife is getting an emotional need filled by her 'Friend" instead of you. Does she have that much communication with you, her husband?
> 
> This is an emotional affair. Do you know what and EA is?
> Google it. Or better go to this site Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends", read the book and have her take the quiz.
> 
> Read this book too, learn what emotional need are.
> 
> His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley: 9780800719388: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Act quickly, the longer you wait the harder it will be to handle. Your marriage is at risk.


Thank you for your suggestions. Also thank you everyone else for your book selections. Next stop... Barnes and Noble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Thank you for your suggestions. Also thank you everyone else for your book selections. Next stop... Barnes and Noble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There on the Nook. Good reading.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> Opposite sex friends are not healthy for a marriage, period.


I know a lot of couples who have an agreement like this, and I see many more on this forum, and I'm glad it works! But it's not the only way to have a healthy marriage. (It takes only one counterexample to refute an 'only' argument, and I've got one right here!) But I know that there are many couples in healthy relationships who have friends of opposite sex. It's about an agreement that works for both parties. 

If that's what Confused and his wife agree on, then that's great. But I don't think he can go in there with "this is the way a healthy marriage looks, and thus it is the way our marriage shall be henceforth", if he expects her to respond well. I think there is a huge range of acceptable relationships with members of the opposite sex (that she was clearly outside of before, yes). I think it must be a mutual agreement, and that there is more than one way that a healthy marriage can work when it comes to opposite sex friends.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Shaggy said:


> Normal people like your wife do not start out one day saying to themself, I'm going to reconnect with an old friend and have an affair.
> 
> People don't decide to become addicted to meth either.
> 
> Have you ever met someone who deliberately chose a self destructive addiction?
> 
> But yet we know for a fact that people end up with self destructive addictions.
> 
> In your wife's case she's gotten hooked on both the positive attention and validation, but also on the little repeated hit her brain gets from each text msg from him.
> 
> It's a cycle. She gets a text from him, it makes her feel good because not only is it directed to her meaning he's putting his time and emotions into thinking about her and contacting her, BUT when the text comes in, she is allowed to put on hold for a minute whatever real life crap she is dealing with. Basically, 30 seconds of happy time.
> 
> Then her brain starts returning to its previous state as the hit wears off.
> 
> Then in a bit, another text and another hit of happy.
> 
> Oh, and the best part is she knows that if she's ever in need, all she has to do is send just one to him, and he will start sending her more hits.
> 
> Right now your wife is going through withdrawal. And like other addictions, the addict will often relapse when they are tired, or stressed, or lonely, or unhappy.
> 
> Ths is why even if you trust her, you need to watch out for her contacting him in secret via a new channel or a new phone. She doesn't see him as a threat, or that what she is doing as dangerous, so in a low moment she may very well decide what you don't know won't hurt you.
> 
> She desperately needs to read Not Just Friends. That book may just save your marriage.


:iagree: The above post might be the most important post you've read so far. Confused, you come across as a thoughtful, intelligent guy. Researching this stuff and reading the "Not Just Friends" book will be a life-changing experience for you. There's no doubt in my mind that once you fully understand emotional affairs, you'll no longer be "confused."

The chemical aspect of emotional affairs is real and very powerful and hard to give up. That's why your wife is clinging to her texting habit so hard. 

And please, stop with the worry about being "controlling." It makes you appear weak in your wife's eyes. Even though your wife protests about not being allowed to have her friend, in the end she'll respect you more by being firm, strong, confident, and the kind of guy who will never let another man into his marriage.


----------



## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

To clarify the reason I suggested stepping back: If she's denying she did anything wrong, it's probably because she feels backed into a corner and like she isn't being heard. Not because she really believes she did nothing wrong. In my opinion, there's no choice but to respect her space and trust her now, if you want to rebuild.. IF she were to go back to this person, or someone else, you would find out about it eventually. Then you'd know, despite your BEST efforts, there is nothing you can do and then go from there. If you take the stance that she needs to get on her knees and beg forgiveness and you'll completely close her out until that happens, she will feel so beaten down she will shut down and then the marriage suffers a long slow death. If he backs off for a while (not ignoring anything, but giving her space, privacy and consideration) and the pressure of defending herself and her motives is off, she is much more likely to feel respected and acknowledge his perspective too.

As for showing this thread to her, I would personally wait until the smoke clears if you tell her at all. That may be too much for her right now. It really is somewhat a breach of trust, even though it's anonymous and understandable why you'd want some objective opinions. I would definitely wait. Good luck.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I know a lot of couples who have an agreement like this, and I see many more on this forum, and I'm glad it works! But it's not the only way to have a healthy marriage. (It takes only one counterexample to refute an 'only' argument, and I've got one right here!) But I know that there are many couples in healthy relationships who have friends of opposite sex. It's about an agreement that works for both parties.
> 
> If that's what Confused and his wife agree on, then that's great. But I don't think he can go in there with "this is the way a healthy marriage looks, and thus it is the way our marriage shall be henceforth", if he expects her to respond well. I think there is a huge range of acceptable relationships with members of the opposite sex (that she was clearly outside of before, yes). I think it must be a mutual agreement, and that there is more than one way that a healthy marriage can work when it comes to opposite sex friends.


You're really rolling the dice if you allow your spouse to have close opposite sex friends. While most of us have to come into contact with them because of work and other activities, a healthy marriage has to have firm boundaries in place. And those boundaries aren't simply "no having sex" with your friend. They're placed a lot further out than that because so much will normally occur leading up to the sex. There will be bonding. Addictive dopamine will flow. By then it's too late. 

Close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs ALL THE TIME. And it happens to so many folks who would never, in a thousand years, believe they would ever cheat. I'd rather get the "controlling" charge thrown at me than allow my wife to have a close male friend.


----------



## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

You REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY need to read Not Just Friends. I agree it will probably save your marriage. If your wife also reads it and takes it to heart.

Download it and start reading right now.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> To clarify the reason I suggested stepping back: If she's denying she did anything wrong, it's probably because she feels backed into a corner and like she isn't being heard. Not because she really believes she did nothing wrong. In my opinion, there's no choice but to respect her space and trust her now, if you want to rebuild.. IF she were to go back to this person, or someone else, you would find out about it eventually. Then you'd know, despite your BEST efforts, there is nothing you can do and then go from there. If you take the stance that she needs to get on her knees and beg forgiveness and you'll completely close her out until that happens, she will feel so beaten down she will shut down and then the marriage suffers a long slow death. If he backs off for a while (not ignoring anything, but giving her space, privacy and consideration) and the pressure of defending herself and her motives is off, she is much more likely to feel respected and acknowledge his perspective too.
> 
> As for showing this thread to her, I would personally wait until the smoke clears if you tell her at all. That may be too much for her right now. It really is somewhat a breach of trust, even though it's anonymous and understandable why you'd want some objective opinions. I would definitely wait. Good luck.


Bad advice. His wife needs to understand emotional affairs. She needs to understand that she's playing Russian Roulette with her marriage. She needs to understand that her husband doesn't want to be in a marriage where she's sharing her intimate thoughts and most of her day with another man. She needs to understand that she's addicted. She needs to read, "Not Just Friends." 

Those of us who've been around here for awhile and have experience with EAs or have read about them see this situation being very typical. We also know that there's a very good chance it doesn't turn out well if a soft approach is taken. If there's one thing that's true, it's that all of these stories follow the same script.


----------



## Raven1983

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Hope1964 said:


> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
> 
> Sorry, I just skimmed, but the fact of the matter is that when people are married, opposite sex friends should be OFF THE TABLE. Period.
> 
> Not Just Friends is a book you and you wife NEED to read. Very very soon.


I am going through a divorce right now...but the reason for that is because my husband cheated on me. I have a couple of male best friends...and I have for a long time...Nothing ever came of anything...I'm sorry but I don't agree with the opposite sex friends should be off the table...


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Cubby said:


> Bad advice. *His wife needs to understand emotional affairs.* She needs to understand that she's playing Russian Roulette with her marriage. She needs to understand that her husband doesn't want to be in a marriage where she's sharing her intimate thoughts and most of her day with another man. She needs to understand that she's addicted. She needs to read, "Not Just Friends."
> 
> Those of us who've been around here for awhile and have experience with EAs or have read about them see this situation being very typical. We also know that there's a very good chance it doesn't turn out well if a soft approach is taken. If there's one thing that's true, it's that all of these stories follow the same script.


This is good advice...my husband had no idea what an emotional affair was...and he'd actually HAD one (while married to his first wife). It was during our difficulties with his 'friend' that he told me that he'd ALWAYS had opposite sex friends...and about this woman who used to mind his children...how they'd become very close friends. But that it was OK because there was no sex! He didn't understand why his wife at the time was upset/didn't like it. True to form, a year later, I found out that he and his EA partner 'kissed once'. Probably affair-speak for 'we had sex', even though he denies...Nothing I can do, and it was before I ever met him...but I certainly CAN (try to) prevent such a thing from happening again, by educating my husband (and myself) about the damages of emotional affairs. Ya. They always start of as being 'just friends'. And it makes me sick.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Raven1983 said:


> I am going through a divorce right now...but the reason for that is because my husband cheated on me. I have a couple of male best friends...and I have for a long time*...Nothing ever came of anything...*I'm sorry but I don't agree with the opposite sex friends should be off the table...


That's great that 'nothing ever came of anything.' But if you don't have close opposite sex friends then 'nothing will ever come of anything' also. Unfortunately it's way too common that 'something DOES come of something' when married people have close friends of the opposite sex. Not a risk I'd like to take.


----------



## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Raven1983 said:


> I am going through a divorce right now...but the reason for that is because my husband cheated on me. I have a couple of male best friends...and I have for a long time...Nothing ever came of anything...I'm sorry but I don't agree with the opposite sex friends should be off the table...


Read the book I suggested. It will open your eyes to the pitfalls of opposite sex friends, especially 'best' friends. You're running with scissors doing that while you're in a relationship.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

just depends on a bunch of variables. If you feel the need to start hiding the conversations and connections, not a good sign. My wife has always had some male friends...but then they started getting too close...as is the risk when you play with fire. Then she was texting new male friends, then she bought a gophone and is having an EA....now we are divorcing. I would suppose it has alot to do with the strength of the marriage and your REAL goal of talking to friends. In any event, you have to be open and forthright if you are to have this kind of marriage.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> This is good advice...my husband had no idea what an emotional affair was...and he'd actually HAD one (while married to his first wife). It was during our difficulties with his 'friend' that he told me that he'd ALWAYS had opposite sex friends...and about this woman who used to mind his children...how they'd become very close friends. But that it was OK because there was no sex! He didn't understand why his wife at the time was upset/didn't like it. True to form, a year later, I found out that he and his EA partner 'kissed once'. Probably affair-speak for 'we had sex', even though he denies...Nothing I can do, and it was before I ever met him...but I certainly CAN (try to) prevent such a thing from happening again, by educating my husband (and myself) about the damages of emotional affairs. Ya. They always start of as being 'just friends'. And it makes me sick.


My once happy marriage will end because of just this! An EA and "just friends".


----------



## piggyoink

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Cubby said:


> Close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs ALL THE TIME. And it happens to so many folks who would never, in a thousand years, believe they would ever cheat. I'd rather get the* "controlling"* charge thrown at me than allow my wife to have a close male friend.


Gorean?


----------



## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

From how he's described his wife, seems pretty clear she'd know exactly what she did and why it was wrong. Reading for himself is one thing, but I don't think that trying to educate her is the best strategy. No one wants to feel like a statistic or a typical case of some phenomenon, and it's likely to come across as "Look at all these professionals who disagree with you".


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Why not? Many people have no idea what an EA even is. It was only on here that I found out.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

This story sounds ALOT like mine. Once she starts getting angry about "being controlled" and "not being able to have friends" is a warning sign. As we have stated, it is a slippery slope. If the friendships were on the up and up, she would be willing to be more open about them, not get angry and maybe even reduce them to a more comfortable level for both. The cheater seems to always put the blame back on the accuser with "your just jealous"..i heard this for two years....and i was never jealous..but when your gut tells you something, listen.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> Why not? Many people have no idea what an EA even is. It was only on here that I found out.


Me too! I thought and EA was just a close friendship. My wife pushed me away "needing space" because of an EA. I dont think SHE thinks its a big deal even yet....

But i agree...my STBXW would not listen to "people on a marriage blog".


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Alright... My next question is, do I tell my wife about this post? Is that a terrible idea? Like I said, I am being honest with her and not bottling up anything any longer.


She is nowhere NEAR ready to see this stuff. You will know when she's ready. Right now, your only job is vigilance. Stay honest, but your job is monitoring. For HER sake. Just as with any addict - you have to drug test her to ensure she doesn't fall off the wagon. She is in a DEEP affair fog and it's going to take a long time before she stops thinking about him 24/7 - or caring about you. Understand that she has to go through withdrawal to be able to care about you again. Right now she's going through the motions, out of fear of losing the marriage. Stay strong, monitor, and call her out whenever she contacts him. Immediately. Don't let it flare back up. 

By now, you should have passwords to all her electronics. She should have written a No Contact letter that you approve, that you both send to him (we can help with that) - it's a psychological break, necessary. Did she do that after the second time? She should be going to MC with you without arguing. You should both be reading Not Just Friends and His Needs Her Needs. 

You can show her this stuff later.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> But what about printing out the original post for her to read? We both know what happened. True. Til this point it has been impossible for me to convey all of this information to her at one time.


That's what the marriage counselor is for. 

You DO have an appointment, right?


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

MuleM said:


> From how he's described his wife, seems pretty clear she'd know exactly what she did and why it was wrong. Reading for himself is one thing, but I don't think that trying to educate her is the best strategy. No one wants to feel like a statistic or a typical case of some phenomenon, and it's likely to come across as "Look at all these professionals who disagree with you".


Read a book and do some research is the FIRST thing that she tells me to do when we have conflict. I rarely do. She gets pi$$ed because she feels that I make decisions without educating myself on the topic. The problem with that is, if you show me a book about one viewpoint, I can find one that opposes it. Hell, I could find a website that points out the benefits of smoking for you if you want. I am a gut instinct and life experience kind of guy. I have no experience and a very confused gut instinct on this one. I will have to read.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> To clarify the reason I suggested stepping back: If she's denying she did anything wrong, it's probably because she feels backed into a corner and like she isn't being heard. Not because she really believes she did nothing wrong. In my opinion, there's no choice but to respect her space and trust her now, if you want to rebuild.


That doesn't work if she IS STILL CONTACTING OM. She won't just up and wake up one day and say 'oh, you've been hitting on me! How dreadful! I love my husband! You cad!'

The PEA chemicals have already convinced her that OM is magical, wonderful, giving, charismatic, everything her husband isn't. 

His first job is to save the marriage by removing OM. THEN they can work on the issues. But until OM is gone, SHE WON'T WANT TO WORK ON THE ISSUES because all her energy is going to OM. (if they are still contacting)

I've lost track of all the WSs who have 'said' they gave up OM/OW and went to counseling with spouse and faked their way through the whole thing, all the while continuing the affair.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Raven1983 said:


> I am going through a divorce right now...but the reason for that is because my husband cheated on me. I have a couple of male best friends...and I have for a long time...Nothing ever came of anything...I'm sorry but I don't agree with the opposite sex friends should be off the table...


 How close were you to these males? How many hours/minutes each day did you give them? If it was negligible, then I'd agree. 

If it was more than 30 minutes a day, I would posit that it MAY have contributed to your divorce. Not saying it did, but NO marriage should have another person taking away that time and energy that should have gone to the spouse.


----------



## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> From how he's described his wife, seems pretty clear she'd know exactly what she did and why it was wrong. Reading for himself is one thing, but I don't think that trying to educate her is the best strategy. No one wants to feel like a statistic or a typical case of some phenomenon, and it's likely to come across as "Look at all these professionals who disagree with you".


So she knows what she did was wrong. So what? Show me a cheater who doesn't.

Unless you demand accountability from the cheater, they aren't going to give it. Unless you hit them with a 2x4, they stay in the fog. Unless you educate them, they can claim ignorance.


----------



## Soifon

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

If you can I would suggest going back and trying to read some of their correspondence. I get the impression that she told you that you could read them because you obviously aren't the type to do it and she knew you wouldn't. Otherwise how could she be ok with that but then mad at you "controlling" her? 

The way she is acting is showing that there is a lot more going on then them just chatting and being friends.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Garry2012 said:


> just depends on a bunch of variables. If you feel the need to start hiding the conversations and connections, not a good sign.


I always tell people who ask, if you are sharing 100% of your conversations (and your friend's replies) with your spouse, you're probably fine (unless the spouse is a milquetoast and afraid to lose you and will accept an open marriage just so you won't leave them). It's when you hide EVEN ONE COMMUNICATION that you are on that slope.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> From how he's described his wife, seems pretty clear she'd know exactly what she did and why it was wrong. Reading for himself is one thing, but I don't think that trying to educate her is the best strategy. No one wants to feel like a statistic or a typical case of some phenomenon, and it's likely to come across as "Look at all these professionals who disagree with you".


 Disagree.

She is an addict. He is saving her from herself. For this one point in time, he needs to be in charge, until she becomes herself again. For HER. If she truly learns and gets it, she will thank him for saving her from herself.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> if you show me a book about one viewpoint, I can find one that opposes it. Hell, I could find a website that points out the benefits of smoking for you if you want. I am a gut instinct and life experience kind of guy. I have no experience and a very confused gut instinct on this one. I will have to read.


Confused, this just reeks of a potential marriage problem. I hope you are addressing this. You can't imagine how it feels, as a woman, to be married to someone who is combative. It's very demeaning to women and their immediate response is to shut down, stop sharing...and go find someone else to share with. Usually, it's a female friend. 

But do you really want her feeling like she can't share with you? I hope you address this (YOUR issues) in MC, so she sees you doing the hard work, too.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Soifon said:


> If you can I would suggest going back and trying to read some of their correspondence. I get the impression that she told you that you could read them because you obviously aren't the type to do it and she knew you wouldn't. Otherwise how could she be ok with that but then mad at you "controlling" her?
> 
> The way she is acting is showing that there is a lot more going on then them just chatting and being friends.


I forgot about that! I was gonna say the same thing. She offered to let you see it all. Go to her tonight and say 'you're right; I need to see it all so I can understand better. Maybe it'll help me understand what your needs are better. Let me have it.' And hold out your hand until she gives you the phone/computer. Don't let her run into the other room and all the damaging ones while you wait.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Cubby said:


> You're really rolling the dice if you allow your spouse to have close opposite sex friends. While most of us have to come into contact with them because of work and other activities, a healthy marriage has to have firm boundaries in place. And those boundaries aren't simply "no having sex" with your friend. They're placed a lot further out than that because so much will normally occur leading up to the sex. There will be bonding. Addictive dopamine will flow. By then it's too late.


I agree that the boundaries must be more than don't have sex. Absolutely. But, there's a huge space between that and don't be friends at all. 



Cubby said:


> Close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs ALL THE TIME. And it happens to so many folks who would never, in a thousand years, believe they would ever cheat. I'd rather get the "controlling" charge thrown at me than allow my wife to have a close male friend.


It is untrue that close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs all the time. I think you meant some of the time? Are you unaware of a single counter-example? ALL is a strong word. 

If my husband did not "allow" me to have male friends, I would be gone. He can not chose who I do and do not associate with. We have made a mutual agreement in which we both had our say. It is not up to him to "allow". He is not my parent.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I agree that the boundaries must be more than don't have sex. Absolutely. But, there's a huge space between that and don't be friends at all.


The only requirement should be that your spouse is able to see ALL communications between you and an opposite-sex friend, should he choose to ask for it. NO DELETING. Just as you'd want to be able to see how HE communicates with any other women.

If you're sharing something that you won't tell your spouse about, you're cheating. Unless, you know, it's about his surprise 40th birthday party.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> If my husband did not "allow" me to have male friends, I would be gone. He can not chose who I do and do not associate with. We have made a mutual agreement in which we both had our say. It is not up to him to "allow". He is not my parent.


 Uh, didn't you say that you were in the same position as confused's wife? Meaning that YOU had an EA?


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I agree that the boundaries must be more than don't have sex. Absolutely. But, there's a huge space between that and don't be friends at all.
> 
> 
> 
> It is untrue that close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs all the time. I think you meant some of the time? Are you unaware of a single counter-example? ALL is a strong word.
> 
> If my husband did not "allow" me to have male friends, I would be gone. He can not chose who I do and do not associate with. We have made a mutual agreement in which we both had our say. It is not up to him to "allow". He is not my parent.


I think they mean 'it happens all the time' and not 'they all turn into affairs'. Which is true.

But if you ever have an affair with one of your friends, I'm sure your husband will be kicking himself in the rear. Big time.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> I forgot about that! I was gonna say the same thing. She offered to let you see it all. Go to her tonight and say 'you're right; I need to see it all so I can understand better. Maybe it'll help me understand what your needs are better. Let me have it.' And hold out your hand until she gives you the phone/computer. Don't let her run into the other room and all the damaging ones while you wait.


Unfortunately, nearly all communication was through Facebook. Once you hit "unfriend", all of the messages are gone. I trust that her conversation stayed "friendly" after I had a problem with it. I am curious to see the dialogue leading up to the time when she knew it was a problem though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> Uh, didn't you say that you were in the same position as confused's wife? Meaning that YOU had an EA?


No, I was in a similar position, not the same one. I did betray my husband's trust by acting inappropriately with other men at a corporate party (at the time, I felt I had done nothing wrong, but only later realised how my actions had hurt him.) 

My husband's reaction was extreme, and as I said in another post I acquiesced in order to keep the peace and that choice nearly destroyed our relationship. It was after the failure of that, that we created our mutual agreement. Which includes both of our say, and has a place for other men in my life, within bounds that we both accept. The mutual agreement has worked for us. 

Perhaps you will say that I'm likely to have an EA in the future. I won't. But, since that's just what I'm saying, rather than what has happened, I can only say that if we had not been able to compromise our relationship would be over without a doubt, while with the compromise our future looks rosey from where we currently stand.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> The only requirement should be that your spouse is able to see ALL communications between you and an opposite-sex friend, should he choose to ask for it. NO DELETING. Just as you'd want to be able to see how HE communicates with any other women.
> 
> If you're sharing something that you won't tell your spouse about, you're cheating. Unless, you know, it's about his surprise 40th birthday party.


Ok that's just weird... my husband's 40 IS coming up and I'm in the early stages of planning! Crazy choice of examples.

-edit- Oh, and on the more serious note I agree that if you feel you need to hide something from your spouse... you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.


----------



## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Your w is a therapist and she doesn't know what an emotional affair is? I think if you open her eyes to this she will eventually come around. 
But right now she is getting her high from him and in the affair fog. 
I feel bad for her that she can't make friends in the area but if she can make male friends online she can make female friends online too. I'm sure there are lots of online groups she could join and lots of people out there who could use her insight that aren't men she texts 700 times a day. 
How is she writing a book when she spends all day messaging him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Is she allowing you to see her phone and computer?


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

phone seems to be the medium of favor these days.....so much privacy allowed


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Unfortunately, nearly all communication was through Facebook. Once you hit "unfriend", all of the messages are gone. I trust that her conversation stayed "friendly" after I had a problem with it. I am curious to see the dialogue leading up to the time when she knew it was a problem though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Use F chat

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/Chat/Other-Chat-Tools/Fchat.shtml

Can you access an old Facebook chat history account


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Garry2012 said:


> phone seems to be the medium of favor these days.....so much privacy allowed


Yeah, but if you're just sitting on your ass all day while your husband works, a laptop is so much easier to type on...


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> Is she allowing you to see her phone and computer?


Absolutely. If I asked she would let me see whatever I want. She did tell me the other night though that she was mad that I went through/counted her messages. She intended to go through them with me do she could explain herself. She asked me not to do it again because she did not want to put a password on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> She asked me not to do it again because she did not want to put a password on it.


No offense, but you're a couple steps away from her taking control of the marriage and seeing whoever she wants.

She cheated on you and she DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE TO PUT A PASSWORD on her computer if you don't stop looking?

You don't see the problem there?

What did you say? Ok, dear?


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> She did tell me the other night though that she was mad that I went through/counted her messages. She intended to go through them with me do she could explain herself. She asked me not to do it again because she did not want to put a password on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_












Really, she told some guy she had sexual dreams about him and her contact with him elevated her sexual desires. But she got mad that you looked at her phone and put you on notice if you did it with out asking, she'd put a password on. Do you see something wrong with this situation?


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Absolutely. If I asked she would let me see whatever I want.


Great. Go home tonight, hold out your hand, and say 'I want to see your computer.' Don't take no for an answer.

Confused, what you describe is NOT the responses of a remorseful person. If she doesn't achieve remorse, SHE WILL CONTINUE TO CHEAT ON YOU.

What book are you reading today?


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I agree that the boundaries must be more than don't have sex. Absolutely. But, there's a huge space between that and don't be friends at all.
> 
> 
> 
> It is untrue that close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs all the time. I think you meant some of the time? Are you unaware of a single counter-example? ALL is a strong word.
> 
> If my husband did not "allow" me to have male friends, I would be gone. He can not chose who I do and do not associate with. We have made a mutual agreement in which we both had our say. It is not up to him to "allow". He is not my parent.


What I meant was, "it happens way too often." Not every single friendship becomes an affair. My mistake.


----------



## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> No offense, but you're a couple steps away from her taking control of the marriage and seeing whoever she wants.
> 
> She cheated on you and she DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE TO PUT A PASSWORD on her computer if you don't stop looking?
> 
> You don't see the problem there?
> 
> What did you say? Ok, dear?


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> If this works for you and your wife, great, but you do realize that this is not the norm, and that most people, wouldn't be OK with this...I certainly wouldn't be!
> 
> And I just have to ask...if you're actively taking steps to avoid going into affair territory...isn't that a little risky? Sounds to me as though the entire scenario should be avoided. You seem one 'step' away from slipping! Again, JMO, and no disrespect intended. It's just a foreign concept to me.


No disrespect taken. 

I think we all agree that, when married you need to set boundaries as to what you do with other people, particularly opposite sex friends. The boundaries are to stop you getting into a situation where you make a dumb decision, and also to stop your spouse worrying about what might be happening.

Not having ANY interaction with the opposite sex socially is one such boundary. Most of us don't draw the line there, but we put limits on relationships to keep them proper. That's what I do. But arguably, any contact with someone opposite sex involves risk.

My best friend besides wife lives in another country. We cannot meet without our spouses knowing, and we do not meet without them agreeing, and being there. The intimate communications are all written down and our spouses have access. They know what we talk about. Friend and I can webcam but we rarely do, because that might start me focussing on how attractive she is rather than what she says. When we discuss sex it's about the mechanics, not about titilation. Limits like that. The point is to keep the relationship well away from thoughts of romance or lust.

Not the norm? Well I don't know if there is a norm. But if you were my wife, and objected, you would certainly be within your rights. I would discuss it with you, looking for a set of boundaries that we could both be happy with. If we couldn't come to an agreement I would end the other friendship. This is essentially what I advised the OP.

Why not just end it anyway to be safe? Truly great friends are a rare gift. Not to be discarded lightly.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Absolutely. If I asked she would let me see whatever I want. She did tell me the other night though that she was mad that I went through/counted her messages. She intended to go through them with me do she could explain herself. She asked me not to do it again because she did not want to put a password on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife is welcome to look at every Facebook message I've ever sent. She can also see my emails, texts, phone logs, anything. She is also an open book with her communications. As it should be.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> I have to disagree with you. The OP did the right thing and was more "measured" than I was when I went through a similar though less serious situation. Long story short, I caught my wife exchanging e-mails with an ex boyfriend from HS. They were in the middle of the second round of e-mails when I found out and I deleted his emails, his address and blocked him on FB and at the ISP. Then a few days after I did that, I told my wife what I did and explained that if she wants to have even benign relationships with an ex or have male friends, she has to exit the marriage. Drastic, I know, but necessary. Opposite sex friends are not healthy for a marriage, period.


An ex is also a little more than just an opposite sex friend IMO. A little bit of chemistry always remains.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



piggyoink said:


> Gorean?


I had to look up "Gorean."

No, not a Gorean.

I'm a member of the "Those Who Can See" club.


----------



## Soifon

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Absolutely. If I asked she would let me see whatever I want. She did tell me the other night though that she was mad that I went through/counted her messages. She intended to go through them with me do she could explain herself. She asked me not to do it again because she did not want to put a password on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The fact that she felt she would have to explain herself on any of the messages means they were inappropriate! You aren't seeing your wife very clearly. She would let you see what she wants you to see. She wants to put a password on, then after you ask her she will go through and delete what she doesn't want you to see. She is setting you up so that she controls everything and you see it how she wants you to see it, not how it really is.

As for FB messages, unless they changed it deleting a friend doesn't delete messages. Go the message archive folder and they should ALL be there.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> No offense, but you're a couple steps away from her taking control of the marriage and seeing whoever she wants.
> 
> She cheated on you and she DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE TO PUT A PASSWORD on her computer if you don't stop looking?
> 
> You don't see the problem there?
> 
> What did you say? Ok, dear?


It was during the whole "you don't trust me" discussion. I told that I have always respected her privacy. I won't look and only have when she told me that I could. I wanted to prove that I trust her. After reading these comments, I realize that her being transparent shows trust on her side. She should have nothing to hide. I have never had a password on anything. It is open to her anytime she wants. She can look and I don't care I have nothing to hide. In fact, this forum is the closest that I've come to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Look through phone records, see if she got a "pay-as-you-go" phone, put a keylogger on the computer you know she uses, put a VAR in her car, even look into the "snail mail" if you have to.

If she isn't chatting with him or e-mailing him thru the computer (which she knows you're going to go thru), then she will find another way to contact him. They call it "taking the affair underground".


----------



## the liberal one

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

i just feel that why this thread exist and arguing that your W had a friend from the opposite sex. Man and women can be just friends why try to make assumptions as some kind of an affair?

my experience: both me and W had friends from the opposite sex and are really close to them, they were married just like we do but we always had our perspective boundaries and not to fool around its all down to self-control. And sadly most people don't have this level of selfcontrol whey they meet their "old sweethearts"


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Cubby said:


> You're really rolling the dice if you allow your spouse to have close opposite sex friends. While most of us have to come into contact with them because of work and other activities, a healthy marriage has to have firm boundaries in place. And those boundaries aren't simply "no having sex" with your friend. They're placed a lot further out than that because so much will normally occur leading up to the sex. There will be bonding. Addictive dopamine will flow. By then it's too late.
> 
> Close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs ALL THE TIME. And it happens to so many folks who would never, in a thousand years, believe they would ever cheat. I'd rather get the "controlling" charge thrown at me than allow my wife to have a close male friend.


If by "all the time" you mean it happens a lot and it is a danger, I absolutely agree.

If you mean it always happens, no. Not true.

And yes, thinking "I can trust myself not to cheat" is dangerous and dumb. You need someone who monitors the friendship and will call you on it when it is heading for inappropriate territory. 

One of the many ways in which my wonderful wife is my absolute best friend is that she knows me, she knows when I am heading down a dumb path and she will challenge me. She has access to all my other relationships. Everything. No one else has that.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> Great. Go home tonight, hold out your hand, and say 'I want to see your computer.' Don't take no for an answer.
> 
> Confused, what you describe is NOT the responses of a remorseful person. If she doesn't achieve remorse, SHE WILL CONTINUE TO CHEAT ON YOU.
> 
> What book are you reading today?


Just bought NOT Just friends 30 minutes ago. I am a slow reader, so I will get back to you in a month. When does the movie come out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Soifon

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



the liberal one said:


> i just feel that why this thread exist and arguing that your W had a friend from the opposite sex. Man and women can be just friends why try to make assumptions as some kind of an affair?
> 
> my experience: both me and W had friends from the opposite sex and are really close to them, they were married just like we do but we always had our perspective boundaries and not to fool around its all down to self-control. And sadly most people don't have this level of selfcontrol whey they meet their "old sweethearts"


Because there is red flag after red flag after red flag. My SO has a female best friend. They text regularly, comfort each other when they need it and have a lot of fun together. I am in no way threatened because I know her. I see all of their communication, nothing is hidden from me. He doesn't obsess over her. He doesn't contact her on a daily basis for hours each day. It's a normal friendship. What his wife is doing and how she is reacting isn't a normal friendship regardless of same sex/opposite sex.


----------



## MrK

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



costa200 said:


> Can someone please tell me why many american husbands are so afraid of being called "controlling" that some seem to hand their wives in a platter to another guy to court just so that they can't be called that?


AMEN. And I'm GUILTY of it. It was a long time ago, but I get physically ill thinking of the men I handed my wife to.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> How close were you to these males? How many hours/minutes each day did you give them? If it was negligible, then I'd agree.
> 
> If it was more than 30 minutes a day, I would posit that it MAY have contributed to your divorce. Not saying it did, but *NO marriage should have another person taking away that time and energy that should have gone to the spouse.*


Dunno about the thirty minute rule but he basic point of energy going into your marriage first and foremost is fundamental.

Another friendship, an engrossing and time consuming hobby or a demanding career can all be bad news for a marriage.

Never forget to spent time with your spouse, and in particular make time for deep conversation and intimate time together. (And I don't just mean sexual intimacy). 

The biggest red flag in my marriage is if something nice happens and my wife is not the first person I want to share it with, or if something hurts me and she is not the first person I turn to for comfort. It take time to keep that flowing.


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> No disrespect taken.
> 
> I think we all agree that, when married you need to set boundaries as to what you do with other people, particularly opposite sex friends. The boundaries are to stop you getting into a situation where you make a dumb decision, and also to stop your spouse worrying about what might be happening.
> 
> Not having ANY interaction with the opposite sex socially is one such boundary. Most of us don't draw the line there, but we put limits on relationships to keep them proper. That's what I do. But arguably, any contact with someone opposite sex involves risk.
> 
> My best friend besides wife lives in another country. We cannot meet without our spouses knowing, and we do not meet without them agreeing, and being there. The intimate communications are all written down and our spouses have access. They know what we talk about. Friend and I can webcam but we rarely do, because that might start me focussing on how attractive she is rather than what she says. When we discuss sex it's about the mechanics, not about titilation. Limits like that. The point is to keep the relationship well away from thoughts of romance or lust.
> 
> Not the norm? Well I don't know if there is a norm. But if you were my wife, and objected, you would certainly be within your rights. I would discuss it with you, looking for a set of boundaries that we could both be happy with. If we couldn't come to an agreement I would end the other friendship. This is essentially what I advised the OP.
> 
> Why not just end it anyway to be safe? Truly great friends are a rare gift. Not to be discarded lightly.


This all makes perfect sense...my husband had 3 friends (female) when we met. 2 proved to be interested in more than simple friendship and were dispensed with. The third is now OUR friend. Same goes for any male friends I had coming into this marriage.

The norm I speak of, is simply that it seems (from TAM) that most are opposed to friendships with the opposite sex. By this I do not mean normal day to day interactions, such as colleagues, people at the gym, neighbors etc. I mean VERY close intimate friendships, such as the ones I've cultivated with my female friends.

What makes me laugh out loud is how my own husband used to praise his friend...lavish praise for such a smart, funny, down to earth woman who really was his BEST friend. Funny, then, how as soon as I came on the scene, she was nowhere to be found, no more calls, no more emails, no nothing. 2 years later, along she comes, fishing, looking to come between us, and when she didnt' get her way, she cut us both to shreds in a nasty long message...What a nice friend, I said to him, who only ever really had one thing on her mind, and it was never friendship. She would just use him for whatever whim she had at the moment. Free renovations...free nights out with food / booze all paid for...sex (when she wasn't banging someone else). No. We're well rid of her.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I agree that the boundaries must be more than don't have sex. Absolutely. But, there's a huge space between that and don't be friends at all.
> 
> 
> 
> It is untrue that close opposite sex friendships eventually become full-fledged affairs all the time. I think you meant some of the time? Are you unaware of a single counter-example? ALL is a strong word.
> 
> If my husband did not "allow" me to have male friends, I would be gone. He can not chose who I do and do not associate with. We have made a mutual agreement in which we both had our say. It is not up to him to "allow". He is not my parent.


He is not your parent, but if he is uncomfortable with your relationship with another guy I would counsel you to honour him and limit or end the other relationship. If he is not allowing any opposite sex friends....well that is something you have to talk about, but he certainly has a right to his boundaries. You ave to look for something you can both live with.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> The only requirement should be that your spouse is able to see ALL communications between you and an opposite-sex friend, should he choose to ask for it. NO DELETING. Just as you'd want to be able to see how HE communicates with any other women.
> 
> If you're sharing something that you won't tell your spouse about, you're cheating. Unless, you know, it's about his surprise 40th birthday party.


I would have other limits as well. Eg I would not spend an evening alone with an opposite sex friend, a bottle of nice wine, and a romantic environment. Just in case....


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> I would have other limits as well. Eg I would not spend an evening alone with an opposite sex friend, a bottle of nice wine, and a romantic environment. Just in case....


Not unless that's typically the way you share an evening with your GUY friends...LOL...kidding...


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Just bought NOT Just friends 30 minutes ago. I am a slow reader, so I will get back to you in a month. When does the movie come out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the next-best thing, from the author's website:
Good people in good marriages are having affairs. More times than I can count, I have sat in my office and felt torn apart by the grief, rage, and remorse of the people I counsel as they try to cope with the repercussions of their infidelity or their partner’s betrayal. In two-thirds of the couples I’ve treated in my clinical practice over the past twenty years, either the husband, the wife, or both were unfaithful. Broken promises and shattered expectations have become part of our cultural landscape, and more people who need help in dealing with them appear in my office every day.
Surprisingly, the infidelity that I’m seeing these days is of a new sort. It’s not between people who are intentionally seeking thrills, as is commonly believed. The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they’ve crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love. Eighty-two percent of the unfaithful partners I’ve treated have had an affair with someone who was, at first, “just a friend.” Well-intentioned people who had not planned to stray are not only betraying their partners but also their own beliefs and moral values, provoking inner crises as well as marital ones.
This is the essence of the new crisis of infidelity: friendships, work relationships, and Internet liaisons have become the latest threat to marriages. As these opportunities for intimate relationships increase, the boundaries between platonic and romantic feelings blur and become easier to cross.
Today’s workplace has become the new danger zone of romantic attraction and opportunity. More women are having affairs than ever before. Today’s woman is more sexually experienced and more likely to be working in what used to be male-dominated occupations. Many of their affairs begin at work. From 1982 to 1990, 38 percent of unfaithful wives in my clinical practice were involved with someone from work. From 1991 to 2000, the number of women’s work affairs increased to 50 percent. Men also are having most of their affairs with people from their workplace. Among the 350 couples I have treated, approximately 62 percent of unfaithful men met their affair partners at work.
The significant news about these new affairs--and what is different from the affairs of previous generations--is that they originate as peer relationships. People who truly are initially just friends or just friendly colleagues slowly move onto the slippery slope of infidelity. In the new infidelity, secret emotional intimacy is the first warning sign of impending betrayal. Yet, most people don’t recognize it as such or see what they’ve gotten themselves into until they’ve become physically intimate.
_Most people mistakenly think it is possible to prevent affairs by being loving and dedicated to one’s partner._ I call this the “Prevention Myth,” because there is no evidence to support it. My experience as a marital therapist and infidelity researcher has shown me that simply being a loving partner does not necessarily insure your marriage against affairs. You also have to exercise awareness of the appropriate boundaries at work and in your friendships. This book will help you learn to observe boundaries or set them up where you need to. It will tell you the warning signals and red flags you need to pay attention to in your own friendships and in your partner’s.
_Most people also mistakenly think that infidelity isn’t really infidelity unless there’s sexual contact._ Whereas women tend to regard any sexual intimacy as infidelity, men are more likely to deny infidelity unless sexual intercourse has occurred. _In the new infidelity, however, affairs do not have to be sexual._ Some, such as Internet affairs, are primarily emotional. The most devastating extramarital involvements engage heart, mind, _and_ body. And this is the kind of affair that is becoming more common. Today’s affairs are more frequent and more serious than they used to be because more men are getting emotionally involved, and more women are getting sexually involved.
Consider this surprising statistic: At least one or both parties in 50 percent of all couples, married and living together, straight and gay, will break their vows of sexual or emotional exclusivity during the lifetime of the relationship.1 It has been difficult for us researchers to arrive at this absolute figure because of the many variations in how research has been conducted, in sample characteristics, and in how extramarital involvements have been defined. After reviewing 25 studies, however, I concluded that 25 percent of wives and 44 percent of husbands have had extramarital intercourse.2 This is startling news indeed.
Vast numbers of Americans are preoccupied by an actual or potential betrayal of an intimate relationship. Their anxiety is not confined to a particular class, occupation, or age. Infidelity can occur in any household, not just in situations where partners are promiscuous or rich and powerful. No marriage is immune.
There are, however, steps you can take to keep your relationship or marriage safe. There are also steps you can take to repair your relationship after emotional or sexual infidelity has rocked it. And there are things you can do specifically to help yourself through the trauma of betrayal. And you’ll learn them all in _NOT “Just Friends.”_


----------



## the liberal one

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

well one lesson to learn then: never get married!


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> The norm I speak of, is simply that it seems (from TAM) that most are opposed to friendships with the opposite sex.


TAM has some great information and many wise people, but I wouldn't judge what is normal from it. Lot of fruitcakes here, me included!


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> Not unless that's typically the way you share an evening with your GUY friends...LOL...kidding...


But there is a serious point there......if I happened to be a gay male should I only have women friends? If I were bisexual, no friends besides my wife?

This is why I think the "no opposite sex friends" rule is too simplistic.


----------



## the liberal one

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Soifon said:


> Because there is red flag after red flag after red flag. My SO has a female best friend. They text regularly, comfort each other when they need it and have a lot of fun together. I am in no way threatened because I know her. I see all of their communication, nothing is hidden from me. He doesn't obsess over her. He doesn't contact her on a daily basis for hours each day. It's a normal friendship. What his wife is doing and how she is reacting isn't a normal friendship regardless of same sex/opposite sex.


same situation both of our close friends actually know each other as well as me and my W (really linked together)

p.s seems like a potential for an open marriage (well not really):lol:


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> He is not your parent, but if he is uncomfortable with your relationship with another guy I would counsel you to honour him and limit or end the other relationship. If he is not allowing any opposite sex friends....well that is something you have to talk about, but he certainly has a right to his boundaries. You ave to look for something you can both live with.


Yes. What I'm advocating is a mutually agreed upon set of boundaries. I do not advocate disregarding the husband's concerns at all.


----------



## Hope1964

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> But there is a serious point there......if I happened to be a gay male should I only have women friends? If I were bisexual, no friends besides my wife?
> 
> This is why I think the "no opposite sex friends" rule is too simplistic.


I like to say that when you are married, your friends should be friends of the marriage. No matter what sex they are. If you have friends whom you share secrets from your spouse with, they aren't friends of the marriage. It's far easier for someone to be a friend of your marriage if they are not sexually attracted to you, or you to them. It is far likelier that someone is going to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex, generally speaking. Hence the 'opposite sex' friends thing.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> But there is a serious point there......if I happened to be a gay male should I only have women friends? If I were bisexual, no friends besides my wife?
> 
> This is why I think the "no opposite sex friends" rule is too simplistic.


Agreed. Back to the OP: if his wife had a female friend (and she is totally heterosexual), it would still have been inappropriate for her to be in that intense of a relationship with a person other than her partner. 

It comes down to saving emotional/sexual/intellectual energy for your partner, because in theory they are the most important relationship you have. (Children excluded, that's a whole other can of worms.)


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

NOT Just Friends - My views so far
----------------------------------------

The first chapter was good and I could relate somewhat. After that, it seemed like it did not pertain to me. She crossed a boundary and it ended. She is still in pain and I need to know why. This book does not cover that. It doesn't mention the word "control". It doesn't talk about dealing with these situations in the early stages. If there are later steps to take to fix/deal with our marriage, that is in there, but I don't think that I am there yet.

I may be able to draw parallels from this book, but the examples used are far from what I am dealing with. They are all stage 5 examples, while I am at stage 1.

What I know...

She needs to realize that she is emotionally attached to someone else and it is extremely toxic to our marriage. I understand that much.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Finish the book.


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## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> Finish the book.


Alright Dr. Glass. You already got my money. I will continue. I have to play Legos with my boy now though. The TV has been babysitting him long enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

lol


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

fwiw, the one thing that has helped me in life over anything else...is reading. Every book I can get my hands on about relationships, psychology, fixing problem, new ideas, methods that work, how to read your spouse...

I don't use it all, but I LEARN it all. That allows me to pick out what applies to me and what makes sense so that, before an issue becomes an issue, I can analyze it and already know the best way to handle it.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Alright Dr. Glass. You already got my money. I will continue. I have to play Legos with my boy now though. The TV has been babysitting him long enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good. You're a good dad. Play with your boy. It also looks like you're a good husband, but you've been blindsided by an issue you don't quite understand, just like so many of us here. We all hate to see good families get broken up, so we're in your corner offering help. Keep reading.


----------



## Cubby

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> fwiw, the one thing that has helped me in life over anything else...is reading. Every book I can get my hands on about relationships, psychology, fixing problem, new ideas, methods that work, how to read your spouse...
> 
> I don't use it all, but I LEARN it all. That allows me to pick out what applies to me and what makes sense so that, before an issue becomes an issue, I can analyze it and already know the best way to handle it.


Sadly, so many stubbornly try to re-invent the wheel, when the information is out there and available from those who've extensively studied the issues.


----------



## MrK

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

She still hasn't taken ownership of this affair yet, has she? She's still in denial, right? It's still in the "it's your fault" stage, right?

Not good.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Part of a review of HNHN:

At the climax of Harley's book he describes how to end an affair, and his advice is very simple as he advises the spouse with the affair to completely separate all contact with the lover drastically and forever, (Harley, 189-190) undergo extreme transparency with radical honesty, (Harley, 192-193) and meet each other's basic needs. (Harley, 194) The end result of recovery is that the couple has a greater love relationship than what they ever would have had if the affair had not happened. (Harley, 195-196) Overall, Harley advises that happy married couples make their marriage a full-time priority as they invest effort into each other and they do it in the right places, (Harley, 199) and the conclusion of Harley's book is to bring about such a commitment by both parties.

Book Review of "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com


----------



## jfv

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Absolutely. If I asked she would let me see whatever I want. She did tell me the other night though that she was mad that I went through/counted her messages. *She intended to go through them with me do* *she could explain herself. She asked me not to do it again because she did not want to put a password on it.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Passord? I'm confused, so can you look through her stuff or not? what kind of transparency is this?

Confused, an EA is not about the content, it is about the need for contact. That is the fix. That is the affair. 

If I had a wife who did what yours did and then threatened to put a password on her phone, I'd tell her. "Honey, if i ever need a password to look through your phone I will assume the worse and call a lawyer."


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## costa200

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Maybe i'm getting a little confused, but usually the one involved in an EA when caught has to make it up to the BS by complying with whatever is necessary to rebuild trust and strengthen the relationship, right? So reading this thread i got the impression that it's OP that cheated, because his wife is now imposing conditions and stuff!


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## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Wow!!! You people are amazing. Every last one of you. 150 responses in 28 hours. Advice to a perfect stranger. I know that it is a marriage forum but it makes me feel special that so many people care about my problem and are there to help. I am so glad that I turned to this forum.

It consumed almost my entire day, but I was able to hash through all of the advice and take everything into consideration that I thought applied to me. I do not think that all of my questions are answered or all of my problems are solved, but at least now I have a road map. Before I was completely in the dark.

I just had a conversation with my wife. It started by me getting busted reading this forum. I am not very good at hiding. I will publish as many details as I feel comfortable with tomorrow, but I will tell you that I was NOT a pushover this time. My feelings came through clear as a bell. She now knows that I know very much of what is going on in her head. I struck fear into her, which I am not proud of, but I needed to let her know that I was not going to sit by her side and watch someone take over our marriage. It is far from over, but we took a huge step in the right direction.

That's it for tonight... I think I'm going to have a beer. Thanks again.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Absolutely. If I asked she would let me see whatever I want. She did tell me the other night though that she was mad that I went through/counted her messages. She intended to go through them with me do she could explain herself. She asked me not to do it again because she did not want to put a password on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you ask me, an unshared password is a deal breaker in a relationship, especially after what happened to you. There has to be total transparency between the two of you, no ifs ands or buts.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Good to hear it, Confused!


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## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I know a lot of couples who have an agreement like this, and I see many more on this forum, and I'm glad it works! But it's not the only way to have a healthy marriage. (It takes only one counterexample to refute an 'only' argument, and I've got one right here!) But I know that there are many couples in healthy relationships who have friends of opposite sex. It's about an agreement that works for both parties.
> 
> If that's what Confused and his wife agree on, then that's great. But I don't think he can go in there with "this is the way a healthy marriage looks, and thus it is the way our marriage shall be henceforth", if he expects her to respond well. I think there is a huge range of acceptable relationships with members of the opposite sex (that she was clearly outside of before, yes). I think it must be a mutual agreement, and that there is more than one way that a healthy marriage can work when it comes to opposite sex friends.


Again, I'm going to disagree with you. Opposite sex friends bring in *the risk* of emotional attachments developing and therefore, by default are toxic to a marriage. I'm not saying it happens in every case but the risk alone makes it toxic. I hate to say it but this was not an agreement between my wife and I. I said this is how it's going to be or we need to go our seperate ways; the choice was hers to make. Not exactly something I'm proud of doing but that's how strongly I feel about it. In the end I think our marriage is healthier for it.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



costa200 said:


> Can someone please tell me why many american husbands are so afraid of being called "controlling" that some seem to hand their wives in a platter to another guy to court just so that they can't be called that? What's up with it? Is this something you're taught by your family or is it media pressure or what?


I really it's a generational thing. As you can tell from my postings I'm not afraid of being called controlling, but I'm in my mid fifties and married 30 years. The values are different. 

The guys who struggle with this are in their 30's and younger. These guys have been "feminized" by America's politically correct education system, the popular culture and their mothers. There have been extensive articles written on this. At he same time, women in the same age bracket are being trained by the educational system and culture not to have men determine their destinies. Thus the dilemma. I'm not saying that this is 100% true in all cases, but this is the general trend.

Edit: Dr. Glover covers this in his book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I confess I have not yet made it through the wall of text. 

I stopped when I read this :



> *He asked, through my wife, if it was ok that they were speaking with one another. “Sure, no problem.”*


Wow. You messed up. I will try to read the whol post now. Seriously this was a VERY BAD idea.

----------------------

Read some more, but it was painful. Anyway, no you should be jealous and you needed to take control. Your problem was not being decisive enough which would have come with knowledge of what you were dealing with. 

Realize that once a person is in an EA they must go complete NC and go through withdrawal. It is tough love. You do not get someone off drugs by letting them keep taking drugs. ANY contact whatsoever starts the clock over again. It took me almost two months to go through withdrawal.

It is part of your role in your marriage to hep your partner look out for this stuff. You were flat too easy going about it. If you were not so naive you could have avoided the whole ordeal by telling your wife straight out you were NOT ok with this friendship. Hopefully you have learned from this.


----------



## the liberal one

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> I really it's a generational thing. As you can tell from my postings I'm not afraid of being called controlling, but I'm in my mid fifties and married 30 years. The values are different.
> 
> The guys who struggle with this are in their 30's and younger. These guys have been "feminized" by America's politically correct education system, the popular culture and their mothers. There have been extensive articles written on this. At he same time, women in the same age bracket are being trained by the educational system and culture not to have men determine their destinies. Thus the dilemma. I'm not saying that this is 100% true in all cases, but this is the general trend.
> 
> Edit: Dr. Glover covers this in his book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"


i can totally agree with you..... i actually laughed how men wants to be fu king doormats, i mean when they were dating their W's love them because they had confidence but after marriage they turned into some useless turd

pretty sad for men really, if my w don't respect me and do something bad i would have her out of the house


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> I really it's a generational thing. As you can tell from my postings I'm not afraid of being called controlling, but I'm in my mid fifties and married 30 years. The values are different.
> 
> The guys who struggle with this are in their 30's and younger. These guys have been "feminized" by America's politically correct education system, the popular culture and their mothers. There have been extensive articles written on this. At he same time, women in the same age bracket are being trained by the educational system and culture not to have men determine their destinies. Thus the dilemma. I'm not saying that this is 100% true in all cases, but this is the general trend.
> 
> Edit: Dr. Glover covers this in his book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"


I totally agree. This is a real thing. My daughter teaches high school and she volunteered to me one day that she sees how young boys are being supressed by medication and the system while young women are being over compensated in many ways. It is an affirmative action kind of thing. It is purposeful. It is a conscious effort. I am not saying all those involved realize the damage they are doing. Some do. Fewer and fewer males are continuing their education as a result. Boys are being purposely throttled. It can be subtle or it can be very direct. But for sure it is an effort to reprogram behavior and in some peoples minds to level the field. 

In addition it is also an experience thing. Many of us were idealistic way back when. However life can be a cruel unforgiving teacher. Unfortunately there continues to be a reenforcement by the culture that men just need to accept things. That if their wife chooses to do what she wants they should not only accept it BUT also take the blame.

I mean shame on this guy for working so many hours to support hs family so his wife can stay home and develop a relationship with another man. Indeed, this is all too common. I agree the answer is to find a way to be with your spouse and not sell out and work that many hours. But I did that myself for many years. It is a choice. But if she had the free time to develop this relationship and she was all that smart she could have found a way to share the financial load and still be a good parent.

Being married comes with a comittment. Therefore there have to be boundaries / control in place. It is an agreed "control". But indeed a spouse, man or woman has a right to such a thing. EAs are an epidemic. Most folks are clueless to these. Then you have folks who are flat predatory.

It is an extreme view but along with a woman owning her own body which is a reference to abortion and the concept of marital rape there seem to be folks who just flat believe that spouses are free to do anything with their body as they see fit even within a marriage. That do disagree is somehow controlling. That a spouse is free to effectively date other people. They justify it with their intentions. All I can say is that those of us who have been in EAs typically do not intend to be in an EA. We see it as a friendship. The brain chemicals are their to encourage further procreation. It is a natural mating ritual. We mate with friends. Duh!


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> I totally agree. This is a real thing. My daughter teaches high school and she volunteered to me one day that she sees how young boys are being supressed by medication and the system while young women are being over compensated in many ways. It is an affirmative action kind of thing. It is purposeful. It is a conscious effort. I am not saying all those involved realize the damage they are doing. Some do. *Fewer and fewer males are continuing their education as a result*. Boys are being purposely throttled. It can be subtle or it can be very direct. But for sure it is an effort to reprogram behavior and in some peoples minds to level the field.


This is actually incorrect. The percentage of males receiving higher education is decreasing as the percentage of women increases, but raw male numbers are still increasing. 

Scroll for the breakdown by sex. 

Master's degrees:
Master's degrees conferred by degree-granting institutions, by race/ethnicity and sex of student: Selected years, 1976-77 through 2009-10

Bachelor's degrees
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_300.asp


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



costa200 said:


> Can someone please tell me why many american husbands are so afraid of being called "controlling" that some seem to hand their wives in a platter to another guy to court just so that they can't be called that? What's up with it? Is this something you're taught by your family or is it media pressure or what?


The only thing I challenge is that this is American. Is this not a European thing?

But it is freaky how guys will let other men have their woman before they would be called controlling. It is almost a Manchurian Candidate kind of thing.

Per my other posts I have watched this change from the 60s forward. I have seen it evolve. I think some men get trained this way by their mothers, the school system and in the mistaken belief that by behaving this way they will get the girl or sex or whatever. I see now that this is the premise of the Nice Guy syndrome. I have always been a nice guy. I now just claim to be a good guy or a man of substance. Nice Guy has this weird connotation to it. In its extreme form it is a cuckold template. But I do not believe that these guys wish to be cuckolded. They have just been duped. Progammed. But ultimately this is a weakening of these men. It is very Darwinain. Those who are not programmed in this manner or those who can somehow break free from it with tend to dominate and prosper. They will father the greater number of children.

However, some number of these threads are guys who have a cuckold fantasy fetish and get off by interacting in this way. It would be disappointing to find out ALL of these are real.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

The Middleman said:


> I really it's a generational thing. As you can tell from my postings I'm not afraid of being called controlling, but I'm in my mid fifties and married 30 years. The values are different.
> 
> The guys who struggle with this are in their 30's and younger. These guys have been "feminized" by America's politically correct education system, the popular culture and their mothers. There have been extensive articles written on this. At he same time, women in the same age bracket are being trained by the educational system and culture not to have men determine their destinies. Thus the dilemma. I'm not saying that this is 100% true in all cases, but this is the general trend.
> 
> Edit: Dr. Glover covers this in his book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"


I hear you loud and clear middleman. I know exactly what you at talking about and I think that at 32, I am on the cusp of that generation of feminist/politically correct upbringing. However, my mother certainly was not a feminist. I grew up with no silver spoon and work extremely hard for everything that I have. Working class upbringing. Ii can see how political correctness has evolved in our school systems. I am very easy and extremely encouraging with my children given their age, but they will be well aware that there is no such thing as a 9th place ribbon. As for my wife, she is a "feminist", which can be defined across a huge spectrum. From (1) being a proponent for equality in the workplace, to (10)... I don't even know what 10 would be. I'd say my wife is about a 3. I have little quirks of masculinity in me that no (10) would stand for. Like my insistence in her taking my last name, and me driving when we go someplace as a family. My point is, that my standoffish behavior is not a result of a cushy upbringing or my wife's feminism. It is a combination of guilt over hurting my wife's feelings over the last 4 years (not all of which was my fault) and my appreciation for my wife's feminist views.

Edit... 10 minutes later.

I have no problem with being an extreme hardass. I reserve myself from taking that route out of respect for my wife's feelings. She would absolutely not appreciate it. She would much rather talk things through civilly. So would I, at this point... or any point. The hardass approach would make a mess that I may never be able to clean up.

The ****tails are catching up to me now, so I will stop posting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> This is actually incorrect. The percentage of males receiving higher education is decreasing as the percentage of women increases, but raw male numbers are still increasing.
> 
> Scroll for the breakdown by sex.
> 
> Master's degrees:
> Master's degrees conferred by degree-granting institutions, by race/ethnicity and sex of student: Selected years, 1976-77 through 2009-10
> 
> Bachelor's degrees
> Bachelor's degrees conferred by degree-granting institutions, by race/ethnicity and sex of student: Selected years, 1976-77 through 2009-10


Guess what? The numbers for men should be increasing too ... significantly. There are actually more males born than females by a small margin. But to your point yes. The number of men going on is increasing, but at a much smaller rate than women.

But that said, I do like it when folks provide such data. Thank you.

Masters Degree. Am I reading this chart wrong? OMG, it is much worse than I thought.

Male : 2009-10 275,197 ( since 1977 this value has increased by just less than 104 thousand.

Female : 2009-10 417,828 ( since 1977 this value has increased by just less than 270 thousand )

Bachelor Degrees.

Male : 2009-10 706,633 
Female : 2009-10 943,381

So if I was motivated I would take that excel spreadhseet and graph them. But looking at the raw numbers tells a powerful story.

Ok so guys. Why are you not going to college?


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I hear you loud and clear middleman. I know exactly what you at talking about and I think that at 32, I am on the cusp of that generation of feminist/politically correct upbringing. However, my mother certainly was not a feminist. I grew up with no silver spoon and work extremely hard for everything that I have. Working class upbringing. Ii can see how political correctness has evolved in our school systems. I am very easy and extremely encouraging with my children given their age, but they will be well aware that there is no such thing as a 9th place ribbon. As for my wife, she is a "feminist", which can be defined across a huge spectrum. From (1) being a proponent for equality in the workplace, to (10)... I don't even know what 10 would be. I'd say my wife is about a 3. I have little quirks of masculinity in me that no (10) would stand for. Like my insistence in her taking my last name, and me driving when we go someplace as a family. My point is, that my standoffish behavior is not a result of a cushy upbringing or my wife's feminism. It is a combination of guilt over hurting my wife's feelings over the last 4 years (not all of which was my fault) and my appreciation for my wife's feminist views.
> 
> Edit... 10 minutes later.
> 
> I have no problem with being an extreme hardass. I reserve myself from taking that route out of respect for my wife's feelings. She would absolutely not appreciate it. She would much rather talk things through civilly. So would I, at this point... or any point. The hardass approach would make a mess that I may never be able to clean up.
> 
> The ****tails are catching up to me now, so I will stop posting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think men more readily take on the blame. It is our wanting to feel we are in control. That we can fix things. So when they fail, we want to feel we could have done something better and actually intend to do that. Men are often that way. Many of us have been taught to be accountable.

Being a strong man has zero to do with not talking in a civel manner. Weak men are the ones who have to resort to tantrums. In fact a very strong man indeed asserts himself. He has boundaries. He is less likely to be manuplated and will not compromise his integrity. He is calm under a challenge. This is not the same thing as being meek and submissive.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> Agreed. Back to the OP: if his wife had a female friend (and she is totally heterosexual), it would still have been inappropriate for her to be in that intense of a relationship with a person other than her partner.
> 
> It comes down to saving emotional/sexual/intellectual energy for your partner, because in theory they are the most important relationship you have. (Children excluded, that's a whole other can of worms.)


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Absolutely!!!

This IS the main point.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Confused, run, don't walk, tomorrow morning, to the bookstore and get this one book. Read it before you do anything else. Given what you just said, this is essential. PLEASE read it.

No More Mr Nice Guy. It's basic psychology, and it almost NEVER fails to fix things.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> I have always been a nice guy. I now just claim to be a good guy or a man of substance. Nice Guy has this weird connotation to it. In its extreme form it is a cuckold template. But I do not believe that these guys wish to be cuckolded. They have just been duped. Progammed. But ultimately this is a weakening of these men. It is very Darwinain. Those who are not programmed in this manner or those who can somehow break free from it with tend to dominate and prosper. They will father the greater number of children.
> 
> However, some number of these threads are guys who have a cuckold fantasy fetish and get off by interacting in this way. It would be disappointing to find out ALL of these are real.


I actually used the word "cuckold" in one of our conversations the other night. It was my first attempt at telling her that I felt like I was being cheated on, and the reason that I had such a stong feeling of shame.

For your second point... I surely don't have a cuckold fantasy. If I didn't know that before, I certainly know it now.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> Again, I'm going to disagree with you. Opposite sex friends bring in *the risk* of emotional attachments developing and therefore, by default are toxic to a marriage. I'm not saying it happens in every case but the risk alone makes it toxic. I hate to say it but this was not an agreement between my wife and I. I said this is how it's going to be or we need to go our seperate ways; the choice was hers to make. Not exactly something I'm proud of doing but that's how strongly I feel about it. In the end I think our marriage is healthier for it.


Yes, it is about risk. Just because you put a gun to your head and pull the trigger once and get away with it does not mean this is a no risk deal.

You would think in todays society of "safe sex" that folks would understand risk. 

Folks do not perceive the risk. Plus by ots nature the brain chemicals that work with friendship encourage us to take more risks. We become mentally impaired by these chemicals.

Bt it also comes down to risk versus reward. There are people who do not value their primary relationship as highly as they do their friends. They may be fatalistic and figure if they meet a more suitable mate that they will just trade up. After all if their spouse was their soulmate they would not find another. Flawed thinking there.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I actually used the word "cuckold" in one of our conversations the other night. It was my first attempt at telling her that I felt like I was being cheated on, and the reason that I had such a stong feeling of shame.
> 
> For your second point... I surely don't have a cuckold fantasy. If I didn't know that before, I certainly know it now.


Not saying you do. But after you read through so many of these threads you will see what I am talking about.

I have not read through this whole thread, but it comes down to just being assertive with your boundaries. You first have to know what they are. We are often taught to be fair so it is common for people to want to be fair and compromise their boundaries. BAD IDEA. Compromising true boundaries is compromising your integrity. This helps no one. Certainly not the marriage. So to be sure we need to compromise and have an equitable relationship. That said there are fundamental boundaries that protect the marriage. If the marriage is the number one priotiy for both spouses then they can usually agree to these boundaries.

If you have not done His Needs Her Needs I suggest you do. Together as a couple. For sure do the boundary setting. This is a boundary issue. 

Before I had an EA I was certain that men and women could be close friends. I was certain I had too much character to be unfaithful. The problem was that this was a clear mental though process. Unfortunately when you bond closely with someone else you do not realize until you are in deep, that what you are into is wrong. In fact it usually takes the other spouse to even identify it. I was well into withdrawal before I saw it as an EA. My wife said that right along. I thought she was wrong. We were just really good freinds and we cared for each other ... Anyway, because I loved my wife I listened to her. She was right. I learned an incredible life lesson. I was naive, stupid and selfish.

Anyway, a woman pursuing another man is the mating ritual that can indeed lead to the husband being cuckolded. Switch the genders and it amounts to pretty much the same thing. The cuckold referencing that often these men end up raising other men's children.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> If by "all the time" you mean it happens a lot and it is a danger, I absolutely agree.
> 
> If you mean it always happens, no. Not true.
> 
> And yes, thinking "I can trust myself not to cheat" is dangerous and dumb. You need someone who monitors the friendship and will call you on it when it is heading for inappropriate territory.
> 
> One of the many ways in which my wonderful wife is my absolute best friend is that she knows me, she knows when I am heading down a dumb path and she will challenge me. She has access to all my other relationships. Everything. No one else has that.


And yet let us remember that in both our circumsyances there was infidelity. One bout of such a thing is too many. Not worth the risk IMO. But for others it is.

What is not wise is to make the same bad choices again and again.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> Guess what? The numbers for men should be increasing too ... significantly. There are actually more males born than females by a small margin. But to your point yes. The number of men going on is increasing, but at a much smaller rate than women.
> 
> But that said, I do like it when folks provide such data. Thank you.
> 
> Masters Degree. Am I reading this chart wrong? OMG, it is much worse than I thought.
> 
> Male : 2009-10 275,197 ( since 1977 this value has increased by just less than 104 thousand.
> 
> Female : 2009-10 417,828 ( since 1977 this value has increased by just less than 270 thousand )
> 
> Bachelor Degrees.
> 
> Male : 2009-10 706,633
> Female : 2009-10 943,381
> 
> So if I was motivated I would take that excel spreadhseet and graph them. But looking at the raw numbers tells a powerful story.
> 
> Ok so guys. Why are you not going to college?



It's true that the rate of education for women is increasing significantly more quickly than the rate of education for men. But... so what? As long as both are increasing, that seems like a good thing. 

And to be clear: rate of education for men is increasing. I calculated an average rate of 7% increase per year for men from that link. The American population growth rate is just under 1% according to Wikipedia (which I know isn't peer-reviewed so correct me if that's wrong). So the rate of male education is growing at 7 times the rate of population growth. Which, to me, is a good thing! And not a sign of less and less men completing their education, which was the point I was trying to refute.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Raven1983 said:


> I am going through a divorce right now...but the reason for that is because my husband cheated on me. I have a couple of male best friends...and I have for a long time...Nothing ever came of anything...I'm sorry but I don't agree with the opposite sex friends should be off the table...


Just because you did not have sex with those guys does not mean it did not impact your marriage.

Your hubby has to own hsi affair. You are not to blame for that. However, damage to marriage occurs to marriages by unfaithfulness whether it leads to actual sex or not.

Thisn topic has been discussed many times on this forum. In general we have learned that many women feel opposite sex friends are ok. They say they are not sexually drawn to the other men. BUT, it is the emotioanl bonding that is the mating ritual.

To be sure most of your male friends find you sexually desirable. Not saying they would cheat. But they would be tempted if you straight up offerred them sex. Ask them some time. 

Aks yourself this. Pick your sexiest freind for this experiment. If you were alone say one evening with them in their home / apartment and they palyed the old drop the towell after a shower. What would you do?

Now, lets switch that around. If you were the one dropping the towell, what would they do? I say more often that most women think the guy would take them up on it. In fact a guy that allows himself to be alone with that women in that circumstance is just waiting to win the lottery. Guys will not invest a lot of time in a woman if they are not interested.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> Confused, run, don't walk, tomorrow morning, to the bookstore and get this one book. Read it before you do anything else. Given what you just said, this is essential. PLEASE read it.
> 
> No More Mr Nice Guy. It's basic psychology, and it almost NEVER fails to fix things.


I am on it. Unfortunately the only "bookstores" that I know of that are open at this hour would probably not carry this!


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

That's why I said in the morning!

Or you can probably download it:
No More Mr. Nice Guy!: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> To be sure most of your male friends find you sexually desirable. Not saying they would cheat. But they would be tempted if you straight up offerred them sex. Ask them some time.
> 
> Aks yourself this. Pick your sexiest freind for this experiment. If you were alone say one evening with them in their home / apartment and they palyed the old drop the towell after a shower. What would you do?
> 
> Now, lets switch that around. If you were the one dropping the towell, what would they do? I say more often that most women think the guy would take them up on it. In fact a guy that allows himself to be alone with that women in that circumstance is just waiting to win the lottery. Guys will not invest a lot of time in a woman if they are not interested.


This could as easilly be an argument for better boundaries, rather than an all-out no friends-with-opposite sex rule.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

LOL, texting him 700 times per day, telling the OM she is dreaming about fcuking him, raging at the husband for daring to to be offended by it all.

I've only been here a month, but the patterns of the innumerable threads I have read are the same, and point to only one thing, a MASSIVE emotional affair, that will evolve into a physical affair the NANOSECOND it is logistically possible.

The OP better Man-Up in a Nuclear fashion, or kiss his marriage goodbye.

It pisses me off how the OM in these situations is allowed to feel completely free of of fear and repercussion in pursuing some other man's wife. It is unnatural.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> It's true that the rate of education for women is increasing significantly more quickly than the rate of education for men. But... so what? As long as both are increasing, that seems like a good thing.
> 
> And to be clear: rate of education for men is increasing. I calculated an average rate of 7% increase per year for men from that link. The American population growth rate is just under 1% according to Wikipedia (which I know isn't peer-reviewed so correct me if that's wrong). So the rate of male education is growing at 7 times the rate of population growth. Which, to me, is a good thing! And not a sign of less and less men completing their education, which was the point I was trying to refute.


Sorry I am an Engineer. Rates of change do matter. I think it is great that women would gain parity. But indeed it has gone way way past parity. Something is wrong.

My point is that young men are being throttled. Men and women are equal but they are not the same. Young men are being turned off by this throttling. Leadership takes a good balance of traits.
If we continually bash men for having boundaries and call them controlling they are being trained to supress their own nature. I am not talking about being a jerk. I am saying we are teaching men to supress being men. 

Now if we really wanted to get to the real deal we would would examine just what those degrees were in. Perhaps that will be more supportive of your argument. But indeed then I would point out that this country is not supplying enough Engineers and other related fields. But that is another forum. 

I understand the drive for many to break the old glass ceiling. Fine and dandy. But I think it is time to actually start looking at people as equal.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I actually used the word "cuckold" in one of our conversations the other night. It was my first attempt at telling her that I felt like I was being cheated on, and the reason that I had such a stong feeling of shame.
> 
> For your second point... I surely don't have a cuckold fantasy. If I didn't know that before, I certainly know it now.


When I had my situation I told my wife I will not allow her to re-aquatint with and Ex Boyfriend and risk being made a cuckold.

Edit: I think, as a male, this is Cuckold thing is an engrained fear we have. There is a thread in the infidelity section of the board where a guy and his wife are trying to reconcile after her affair. One of his "image" problems is that his wife was having unprotected sex with the OM as well as with him. Frightening.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> But I think it is time to actually start looking at people as equal.


I disagreed with some of your points and agreed with others... but since this is a thread hijack let`s leave it at your parting remark here and get back to the OP.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> This could as easilly be an argument for better boundaries, rather than an all-out no friends-with-opposite sex rule.


A great boundary that I now subscribe to is having no close oppostite sex friends. I have opposite sex friends. But I do not spend alone time with them. Ever. I do not date them. And yes hanging out alone I consider dating because it is the same activity. Intentions have little to do with it.

The other thing is that the appearance of a too close relationship can be as damging as actually being too close. 

Boundaries have to be designed to actually deal with the risk. One cannot shoot from the hip. The problem there is that it feels ok. Going by feelings leads to high risk. Oxytocin tells your brain it is ok. It feels good. 

The other thing for many folsk but maybe not you is that they think it is all ok as long as everything is innocent. Whatever innocent is. The fact is the danger is in the bonding. When we bind with someone we love them. We should love our friends. This is the oxytocin part. This is a level of intimacy. Knowing when to stop is very gray. So it takes black and white boundaries to deal with this.
Otherwise to me it is playing just the tip. 

This stuff i very subtle. Before you know it you miss that other person a tad too much. They make us feel good. We start confiding in our firend more. They are empathetic. The wife says her husband got upset about something and is an idiot. The guy friend says, I would never treat you that way. Over time she gets a little bit more happy to see her friend and a little more dissatified with her hubby. It is a spiralling thing. It has momentum. It is like being pulled into a black whole.

My wife pulled me from the abyss. I heard her voice through the fog. She caught my EA early enough. I did not know I was in one. I just had a very close female freind I admired and cared about. She would tell me how lucky my wife was and so on. Other people can see it. But those involved typically do not. 

But why risk it?

FWIW married men are not safe however a single man who spends time with a married women is ready, willing and able to get as much from her as he can get whether it be emotional or physical. Anytime time invested in her is time not invested in some other single woman. I get that attention from male freinds is like crack.

But all this aside. My advice to any husband caught up in soemthing like the OP is to set firm boundaries and stick with them. I beleive a couple should agree on boundaries before getting married. Too few do. It is natural to assume that your boundaries are comaptible. We are blinded by our love for the other.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I disagreed with some of your points and agreed with others... but since this is a thread hijack let`s leave it at your parting remark here and get back to the OP.


Indeed. I appreciate this. My only other comment on this is that I do believe that seemingly opposing views can be valid, coexist and sometimes even support each other. So take this as acknowledging your points.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> A great boundary that I now subscribe to is having no close oppostite sex friends. I have opposite sex friends. But I do not spend alone time with them. Ever. I do not date them. And yes hanging out alone I consider dating because it is the same activity. Intentions have little to do with it.
> 
> The other thing is that the appearance of a too close relationship can be as damging as actually being too close.
> 
> Boundaries have to be designed to actually deal with the risk. One cannot shoot from the hip. The problem there is that it feels ok. Going by feelings leads to high risk. Oxytocin tells your brain it is ok. It feels good.
> 
> The other thing for many folsk but maybe not you is that they think it is all ok as long as everything is innocent. Whatever innocent is. The fact is the danger is in the bonding. When we bind with someone we love them. We should love our friends. This is the oxytocin part. This is a level of intimacy. Knowing when to stop is very gray. So it takes black and white boundaries to deal with this.
> Otherwise to me it is playing just the tip.
> 
> This stuff i very subtle. Before you know it you miss that other person a tad too much. They make us feel good. We start confiding in our firend more. They are empathetic. The wife says her husband got upset about something and is an idiot. The guy friend says, I would never treat you that way. Over time she gets a little bit more happy to see her friend and a little more dissatified with her hubby. It is a spiralling thing. It has momentum. It is like being pulled into a black whole.
> 
> My wife pulled me from the abyss. I heard her voice through the fog. She caught my EA early enough. I did not know I was in one. I just had a very close female freind I admired and cared about. She would tell me how lucky my wife was and so on. Other people can see it. But those involved typically do not.
> 
> But why risk it?


I do advocate explicit boundaries as agreed upon by both partners, not shooting from the hip. And these things should all be taken into consideration when creating said boundaries. I mentioned some of the boundaries that my husband and I agreed upon after I went too far, in another post. 

Why risk it? 

For one, as Wazza mentioned, good friends are hard to find, and I'd be loath to drop them. 

For another, I work in a male-dominated profession. (I'm an engineer, like you!) I must associate with males and if I leave it strictly professional association my career will suffer. I would not put my career above my relationship but I think with sufficient boundaries I can stay out with coworkers, have lunches with them etc, and still go home to my husband without having done anything to jeapordize my relationship. 

Again, let me reiterate that I'm not advocating a free-for-all. I do think this should be regulated within the relationship. But I do think a way for this exists.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> When I had my situation I told my wife I will not allow her to re-aquatint with and Ex Boyfriend and risk being made a cuckold.
> 
> Edit: I think, as a male, this is Cuckold thing is an engrained fear we have. There is a thread in the infidelity section of the board where a guy and his wife are trying to reconcile after her affair. One of his "image" problems is that his wife was having unprotected sex with the OM as well as with him. Frightening.


I could not deal with that personally.

On a very positve note to the OP.

If EAs are dealt with properly from the beginning, then the probability of a recovery is very high IMO.
This assumes no huge other problems.

Also realize EAs can happen in te best of marriages, but indeed any strain can fuel them.

They are not something to ease someone out of. They are not something to let run its course. 
In fact by being firm one s being a loving and caring spouse. 

My wife was very understanding of what happened. This did not mean that what I was involved in did not hurt her. But she also knew that there was no middle ground. I ended up changing jobs. Trust me, this was not just any job. After withrawal I realized that my wife could have dumped me. Instead she chose to fight for me. She insisted I go NC. She was right. At the time I thought she was wrong. What mattrs is the long term. You do not noce a person out of an affair. You tell them it is unaccpetable and then make them choose.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I do advocate explicit boundaries as agreed upon by both partners, not shooting from the hip. And these things should all be taken into consideration when creating said boundaries. I mentioned some of the boundaries that my husband and I agreed upon after I went too far, in another post.
> 
> Why risk it?
> 
> For one, as Wazza mentioned, good friends are hard to find, and I'd be loath to drop them.
> 
> For another, I work in a male-dominated profession. (I'm an engineer, like you!) I must associate with males and *if I leave it strictly professional association my career will suffer*. I would not put my career above my relationship but I think with sufficient boundaries I can stay out with coworkers, have lunches with them etc, and still go home to my husband without having done anything to jeapordize my relationship.
> 
> Again, let me reiterate that I'm not advocating a free-for-all. I do think this should be regulated within the relationship. But I do think a way for this exists.


I did not read your other comment you refer too.

Staying out with coworkers as a group is one thing. One on one I suggest you avoid. I am not being condescending. By staying out you probably mean for dinners and drinking. Be careful. 

FWIW, my EA was with a very bright Engineer. I found my kryptonite. Workplace EAs are THE most common. We work closely for long hours and acheive things together. Oh yeah that is powerful stuff.

There are many successful women who do leave things professional. Do not sell yourself short is all I am saying. I do understand what you mean. My comments are well meaning to you.

FWIW, many of my colleagues like to go to strip clubs. Especially the managers. I could easily say that not going along hurts my career. But I make the choice not to go along. I outgrew that stuff long ago. My wife is ok if I went but she would not be ok woth any touching. These other guys drop some serious cash with lap dances and VIP rooms. Not something I am going to do. I just do not bend to peer pressure like some other guys do. Then again, I know I am very good at what I do. I have had many jobs but only one wife. 

But I do enjoy the coworker outings a great deal. They do involve colleagues. We do drink ... more than a bit at times. I am very very careful not to be left in the hotel bar alone with a female colleague in the evening. I know I am not alone in this. I have been the third person in this sxenario nd said good night and seen the panic in my male colleagues face when they after a thought agree it is time to break things up. Keys do get offered in these situations.

Just realize that even if you play ot all just right whcih is awesome, be aware how your spouse feels about things. And again with all good intention, be careful. I thought I was superman. My ego and naivete almost cost me my marriage.

Often when folks discuss opposite sex friends we all have a different view of what that means. So sometimes people seemingly disagree until they define what they are talking about and then we find out there is really no big disagreement.

There are some folks who have no probelm going on vacation alone with opposite sex friends for example.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

When we take a vow to be faithful to our spouse it supecedes all else. In life we make choices. She was just rationalizing. There is ALWAYS a rationization.


----------



## jfv

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Don't EVER ask another man to do YOUR job.... and yes she should stop checking up on him or get rid of her facebook account.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

The above is correct. Essentially when one approaches the other man it should never be "please do not take my wife". You should never beg aniother man to not take your wife away. Also it just reaffirms that he is now ahead of the husband. It has the reverse impact.

That said, if one makes it clear that the contact from the other man will not be tolerated and that you will act on your words if he continues contact that can be called for at some point. This would be AFTER the wife agrees to NC and that the OM is harassing. 

Right now it is about the wife complying. Indeed hold both culpable.

She needs to understand that there is no tolerance for this. That she must choose here. Sometimes in life there is middle ground. This is NOT one of them.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I am back... A great night of talking last night. She explained the reasons for her emotional attachment. They had a very close relationship for a few years just before she met me. My wife had a very traumatic experience when she was in high school. I knew about this from the very beginning. This person was there for the years following to help her through it. She got over her trauma and moved on to other friends. Maybe she met someone, a new BF, back then that said "no way" to this relationship? I think that she feels like she used him. She had a wishy/washy denial of this. She said that she made a promise to herself to repay the favor one day. Now she feels guilt because she can't.

Here is what happened… We went out to eat sushi and my phone was blowing up in my pocket from your posts. I read some. She asked me what I was reading and I told her that I was reading to try to find out more about her feelings of control and to find out if my feelings were justified. There was a lot of tension in the room after that. As soon as we got into the car she asked me if I found that my feelings were justified. I told her definitely. She said that I was reading the wrong things… exactly what I though she would say, verbatim. We talked for 2 hours, put the kids to bed, and talked for 2 more. I told her that we are only going to deal with this issue, the fresh one. We will work backward from this one on all of the other issues later, but this is the topic we are dealing with now. We went of topic a bit, but I was quickly able to pull it back. She was very honest with me. I found out feelings and thoughts that she and about the other man that I had a very hard time hearing. It doesn’t bother me though. Her honesty is the reason that it doesn’t. I think things are going great and in the right direction. I just need her to stop thinking about this person every single day. The ball may be in her court for that, but I will do all that I can on my part.

I made a drastic move. I asked the other man to please block her from Facebook. I did this because I know (gut feeling) that she checks on him everyday. After reading so many of your posts, I believe that her emotional attachment has addictive properties. I confirmed this by asking about the little high with each message that she received when they were talking in the past 2 months. She said in so many words that I was correct. It turns out that he cannot block her because they are no longer friends and her profile is private or because she already blocked him. Either way, his is public so she could see it anyway. I am feeling bad about this. I have to tell her what I tried to do and also ask her to use her own self-control to not ever check up on him. Am I correct about all of this... Did I go to far? If the addictive behavior were with alcohol, I would not leave a bottle in the house.


----------



## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Just repeating myself, but..
you were right to tell her you were jealous
you were right to call her out 
you were right to make it clear she needed to stop, 

but, in my opinion, going behind her back to tell him to block her is treating her like a child. You're not completely in control of your own emotions and impulses if you did this, so how can you ask her to be?

She gave you an explanation why it was happening. That's wonderful she's talking to you. The best thing you can do is talk and listen to each other. But if, after that explanation, you go and do something like this, you've just undermined that trust. You've really got to back up and try to look at this in the big picture as much as you can. Don't "hand her over" to this person or look the other way, but also be honest with yourself about what you might've done to contribute to it as well, and concentrate on improving that, and being there for her. I know most people here completely disagree with this approach, but in the end, she needs to be the one to make the decision to stay away from him, you can't force her to, and if you try it will come back to haunt your marriage eventually.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

You've done well so far, except for asking the OM not to take to your wife. That looked weak as a man and a husband. 

Did you get the book Tunera recommend? No More Mr. Nice Guy

Follow Entropy's post. 

Yes, you can't leave drugs around for an addict. As the others have said, she must go no contact (NC) as in cold turkey. Have her get rid of all things that reminder her of the OM, letters, emails, gifts, pictures, ect. The first days will be hard as she goes through withdraw from the high. Every time she has contact, it's back to zero and the withdraw starts all over again.

Edit added, At least the contact put the OM on notice you're taking action.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I made a drastic move. I asked the other man to please block her from Facebook.


This should be the last time you do this. You need to take him out of the picture and you can start by not contacting him yourself. One thought though, he seems to be what I call a "Stand-up Guy" he understands where you are coming from and does not want to play a part in any marital difficulties you may be having. Am I correct?



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I did this because I know (gut feeling) that she checks on him everyday. After reading so many of your posts, I believe that her emotional attachment has addictive properties. I confirmed this by asking about the little high with each message that she received when they were talking in the past 2 months. She said in so many words that I was correct.


This was evident with your original posting. Would you be willing to share with us how she described it and did she justify it in any way?



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> It turns out that he cannot block her because they are no longer friends and her profile is private or because she already blocked him. Either way, his is public so she could see it anyway. I am feeling bad about this. I have to tell her what I tried to do and also ask her to use her own self-control to not ever check up on him. Am I correct about all of this... Did I go to far? If the addictive behavior were with alcohol, I would not leave a bottle in the house.


From What I know of Facebook, he should be able to block her. As far as self control goes, this is going to be hard for her at this stage, but you have to ask her to do it. Would she consider deleting her own Facebook page entirely? There are other things you could do to lock her out of Facebook, but it might cause a war (I know it did for a while when I did it to my wife). If you think this Addiction is going to really become problematic, you can block Facebook completely from your house by setting a restriction in your browser or directly in your router. People here can help you with that. 

If it were me, I would block Facebook immediately, however in your case I would wait to see if asking her to stop checking on him or asking her to delete her own Facebook account works. Another thing to consider is installing a keylogger on your computer. I don't like this normally but it will alow you to see if your gut feelings are correct. You will be able to see what she does on the computer.

Also, don't forget to check phone records and texting logs just in case she goes that route. IF the OM is a "Stand-up Guy" this should be an issue.

Unfortunately you would have to treat this like any other addiction. If she were addicted to heroine you would have no problem flushing the drugs down the toilet, so you should be able to flush Facebook down the toilet without guilt on your part.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I agree with the others get rid of f***book, If you can't live with out it make, one account for both of you, that's been an option that others have used.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

anchorwatch said:


> You've done well so far, except for asking the OM not to take to your wife. That looked weak as a man and a husband.
> 
> Did you get the book Tunera recommend? No More Mr. Nice Guy
> 
> Follow Entropy's post.
> 
> Yes, you can't leave drugs around for an addict. As the others have said, she must go no contact (NC) as in cold turkey. Have her get rid of all things that reminder her of the OM, letters, emails, gifts, pictures, ect. The first days will be hard as she goes through withdraw from the high. Every time she has contact, it's back to zero and the withdraw starts all over again.
> 
> Edit added, At least the contact put the OM on notice you're taking action.


I went to Barnes and Noble. They had no copies left. I don't have an iPad. Just my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

You say she likes to read - then please have her read the Not Just Friends book, hopefully it will wake her right up. Other WS from EA's have reported they found the book very helpful to understanding themselves and how they got to where they were.

-


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I went to Barnes and Noble. They had no copies left. I don't have an iPad. Just my phone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can get kindle on your smart phone for free and buy the book, or here's a free pdf version

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

The Middleman said:


> This should be the last time you do this. You need to take him out of the picture and you can start by not contacting him yourself. One thought though, he seems to be what I call a "Stand-up Guy" he understands where you are coming from and does not want to play a part in any marital difficulties you may be having. Am I correct?
> 
> 
> This was evident with your original posting. Would you be willing to share with us how she described it and did she justify it in any way?
> 
> 
> From What I know of Facebook, he should be able to block her. As far as self control goes, this is going to be hard for her at this stage, but you have to ask her to do it. Would she consider deleting her own Facebook page entirely? There are other things you could do to lock her out of Facebook, but it might cause a war (I know it did for a while when I did it to my wife). If you think this Addiction is going to really become problematic, you can block Facebook completely from your house by setting a restriction in your browser or directly in your router. People here can help you with that.
> 
> If it were me, I would block Facebook immediately, however in your case I would wait to see if asking her to stop checking on him or asking her to delete her own Facebook account works. Another thing to consider is installing a keylogger on your computer. I don't like this normally but it will alow you to see if your gut feelings are correct. You will be able to see what she does on the computer.
> 
> Also, don't forget to check phone records and texting logs just in case she goes that route. IF the OM is a "Stand-up Guy" this should be an issue.
> 
> Unfortunately you would have to treat this like any other addiction. If she were addicted to heroine you would have no problem flushing the drugs down the toilet, so you should be able to flush Facebook down the toilet without guilt on your part.


1) He does seem to be a "stand-up" guy. I have no hatred toward this person and I told my wife that. This made her feel better.

2) In the course of me surprising her by everything that I now know about what was going in in her head, I flat out told her that "Your strong emotional attachment to this person has an addictive property. I know that every time a new text messages from him, you get a little high." The reply as she was crying was a pause and a nod. Hence, "In so many words..."

3) I can ask her to not look at his page, but I cannot cut Facebook altogether. I feel bad enough for the step that I have already taken. She would definitely take that the wrong way. I want to see if anything is better first before I make anymore drastic moves. As I told you also, she is writing a book and relies heavily on social networking blogs to market herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Wouldn't say this is like heroine since it won't kill anyone.
Installing a keylogger isn't wise. It's essentially stalking and would turn a mild problem (relative to what it could be) into a massive one.


----------



## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> Wouldn't say this is like heroine since it won't kill anyone.
> Installing a keylogger isn't wise. It's essentially stalking and would turn a mild problem (relative to what it could be) into a massive one.


First point not true - it has killed people.

And the keylogger is a defensive tool, so that he knows what he is dealing with so he can effectively defend his marriage, which appears to be what his wife wants too.


----------



## jfv

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> 1) He does seem to be a "stand-up" guy. I have no hatred toward this person and I told my wife that. This made her feel better.
> 
> 2) In the course of me surprising her by everything that I now know about what was going in in her head, I flat out told her that "Your strong emotional attachment to this person has an addictive property. I know that every time a new text messages from him, you get a little high." The reply as she was crying was a pause and a nod. Hence, "In so many words..."
> 
> 3) I can ask her to not look at his page, but I cannot cut Facebook altogether. I feel bad enough for the step that I have already taken. * She would definitely take that the wrong **way*. I want to see if anything is better first before I make anymore drastic moves. As I told you also, she is writing a book and relies heavily on social networking blogs to market herself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do you mean by this? How would she take it?


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



jfv said:


> What do you mean by this? How would she take it?


She is being open and honest and it seems like she will make the effort now that she really knows how i feel. Restricting something like this would create an anger and mistrust issue that would definitely send us back to square 1 and probably even farther back. I think that if something happens that puts us back at square 1, I can consider some of your suggestions.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



anchorwatch said:


> You can get kindle on your smart phone for free and buy the book, or here's a free pdf version
> 
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


Damn, where did the free version come from. I paid for my PDF!


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> Wouldn't say this is like heroine since it won't kill anyone.
> Installing a keylogger isn't wise. It's essentially stalking and would turn a mild problem (relative to what it could be) into a massive one.


The addiction might not kill a person but it could kill their marriage and emotionally destroy the OP.

I disagree with your stand on the Keyloggers, it's a tool to help the OP protect his wife from herself. While it might not be the best of choices it would give him the visibility he needs and hopefully peace of mind.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> She is being open and honest and it seems like she will make the effort now that she really knows how i feel. Restricting something like this would create an anger and mistrust issue that would definitely send us back to square 1 and probably even farther back. I think that if something happens that puts us back at square 1, I can consider some of your suggestions.


Just stay vigilant in being aware of her activities until she is over this.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Shaggy said:


> First point not true - it has killed people.
> 
> And the keylogger is a defensive tool, so that he knows what he is dealing with so he can effectively defend his marriage, which appears to be what his wife wants too.


Great minds think alike. :smthumbup:


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> She is being open and honest and it seems like she will make the effort now that she really knows how i feel. Restricting something like this would create an anger and mistrust issue that would definitely send us back to square 1 and probably even farther back. I think that if something happens that puts us back at square 1, I can consider some of your suggestions.


Well... I might not be back at square 1, but I definitely just took it back quite a bit. I just told her that I wanted to talk to her briefly to ask her a couple of questions that I did not ask yesterday.

1) Me: Do you still have any contact whatsoever with this person?
Her: No. None.

2) Me: I know that you still look him up everyday on facebook. Is that true?
Her: No. Not everyday.
Me: But most days, right?
Her: No. (frustrated). I just want to see how he's doing.
Me: I don't think that that is a good idea. You can't do that anymore. Every time you do you take yourself back to square 1. Your emotional attachment has addictive properties and every time you look him up it is like getting another hit.
Her: Don't tell me what to do.
Me: If you really want to fix this, you need to stop all contact.
Her: I have. I haven't contacted him at all.
Me: He hasn't contact you, but you have contact with him every day. You have to stop all contact. It is a cold-turkey type of thing.

I tried to tell her that I love her and try to kiss her on the forehead. She put her hands up.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Well... I might not be back at square 1, but I definitely just took it back quite a bit. I just told her that I wanted to talk to her briefly to ask her a couple of questions that I did not ask yesterday.
> 
> 1) Me: Do you still have any contact whatsoever with this person?
> Her: No. None.
> 
> 2) Me: I know that you still look him up everyday on facebook. Is that true?
> Her: No. Not everyday.
> Me: But most days, right?
> Her: No. (frustrated). I just want to see how he's doing.
> Me: I don't think that that is a good idea. You can't do that anymore. Every time you do you take yourself back to square 1. Your emotional attachment has addictive properties and every time you look him up it is like getting another hit.
> Her: Don't tell me what to do.
> Me: If you really want to fix this, you need to stop all contact.
> Her: I have. I haven't contacted him at all.
> Me: He hasn't contact you, but you have contact with him every day. You have to stop all contact. It is a cold-turkey type of thing.
> 
> I tried to tell her that I love her and try to kiss her on the forehead. She put her hands up.


No one said it was going to be easy. You have help here however. 

Give her some space and watch closely.

One thing you need to start thinking about .... not for now but for later on if things get worse (a lot worse). At some point she will need to understand that it is going to be either him or you and she is going to have to make a choice. You're no where near there yet, but keep it in the back of your mind. Thankfully the OM seems to be on your side (watch those phone records).


----------



## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

When her hands were up you really should have stuck Not Just Friends into them.


----------



## jfv

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Well... I might not be back at square 1, but I definitely just took it back quite a bit. I just told her that I wanted to talk to her briefly to ask her a couple of questions that I did not ask yesterday.
> 
> 1) Me: Do you still have any contact whatsoever with this person?
> Her: No. None.
> 
> 2) Me: I know that you still look him up everyday on facebook. Is that true?
> Her: No. Not everyday.
> Me: But most days, right?
> Her: No. (frustrated). I just want to see how he's doing.
> Me: I don't think that that is a good idea. You can't do that anymore. Every time you do you take yourself back to square 1. Your emotional attachment has addictive properties and every time you look him up it is like getting another hit.
> Her: Don't tell me what to do.
> Me: If you really want to fix this, you need to stop all contact.
> Her: I have. I haven't contacted him at all.
> Me: He hasn't contact you, but you have contact with him every day. You have to stop all contact. It is a cold-turkey type of thing.
> 
> *I tried to tell her that I love her and try to kiss her on the forehead. She put her hands up*.


Of course she did, you're c*ck blocking. 

You have to stop being so nice, she's in the midst of an addiction the last thing she is going to listen to is reason. 

That is why you have to snoop and check up on her. 

She is in no condition to protect the marriage which is why YOU have to pick up the slack by verifying the No Contact. 

Have you made clear what you will do if she does not maintain the NC?


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> Wouldn't say this is like heroine since it won't kill anyone.
> Installing a keylogger isn't wise. It's essentially stalking and would turn a mild problem (relative to what it could be) into a massive one.


 Bull****.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> She is being open and honest and it seems like she will make the effort now that she really knows how i feel. Restricting something like this would create an anger and mistrust issue that would definitely send us back to square 1 and probably even farther back. I think that if something happens that puts us back at square 1, I can consider some of your suggestions.


 And.....here you are back at your Nice Guy. 

Here is Psychology 101. Women HAVE to respect their man. The instant they get a whiff that you're a doormat...you just lowered yourself in ratings down a few pegs. And when you do that...they go shopping. Whether they know they're doing it or not. Goes back to caveman days - pick the strongest male.

Have we been right so far? So listen to us. She NEEDS you to be strong here. She NEEDS you to KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE DOING. 

STOP telling her that you are seeking advice online on how to deal with her. STOP telling her that you want her to do this or that - tell her that if she doesn't STOP doing what hurts you, you can't stay. TELL her that you need her to write him a No Contact letter that YOU will approve and send. And that if she won't write it, you will assume she's picking someone else over you, and you will make plans to move on (do not use the word divorce). INFORM her that you will be checking to see if she ever even looks him up again, let alone contacts him. TELL her that you love her more than life itself, but you will NOT - CAN not - sit back while she pines for another man.

And then leave it at that. See what she does.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

The No Contact letter is essential, Confused. Like I said earlier, it is a psychological ROADBLOCK. It is VERY powerful, and if she can't do it, it will tell you all you need to know. 

Tell her you need her to write him a No Contact letter.

If she refuses, just look at her and tell her that you will assume she's picking him over you. And you will make plans to move on. 

(note that this doesn't happen immediately; doesn't mean you're packing a bag and leaving. This gives you time to make a point; she'll see you looking up lawyers; looking for apartments, etc. She'll get it - him or you.)


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I hope you're busy reading NMMNG right now.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> The No Contact letter is essential, Confused. Like I said earlier, it is a psychological ROADBLOCK. It is VERY powerful, and if she can't do it, it will tell you all you need to know.
> 
> Tell her you need her to write him a No Contact letter.
> 
> If she refuses, just look at her and tell her that you will assume she's picking him over you. And you will make plans to move on.
> 
> (note that this doesn't happen immediately; doesn't mean you're packing a bag and leaving. This gives you time to make a point; she'll see you looking up lawyers; looking for apartments, etc. She'll get it - him or you.)


Do you think it just might be a little too soon for that?


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

They just had the talk. The NC letter should have been PART of that talk. He needs to go to her tomorrow mornong, say 'are you ready to give him up for good?' If she says no, say he won't share her. If she says yes, he says "great. We're going to sit down and write him a letter.'


----------



## Helplease

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Stand up guys don't get up close and personal with married women.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Helplease said:


> Stand up guys don't get up close and personal with married women.


That's true, but at least for the moment he's doing the right thing.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> They just had the talk. The NC letter should have been PART of that talk. He needs to go to her tomorrow mornong, say 'are you ready to give him up for good?' If she says no, say he won't share her. If she says yes, he says "great. We're going to sit down and write him a letter.'


Getting ready for work and feeling guilty about leaving. Trying to be home before lunch. I think that she wants to visit her friend this morning anyhow. That might be good for her to do some talking. I will take a copy of NMMNG with me an find time to at least flip through. The thing about the letter... I understand that it is more psychological than anything, but she hasn't actually contacted him for 3 weeks now. She just looks him up on Facebook everyday... At least I think. Strike that. I am positive. 

F**k. I will start reading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrK

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> The No Contact letter is essential, Confused. Like I said earlier, it is a psychological ROADBLOCK. It is VERY powerful, and if she can't do it, it will tell you all you need to know.
> 
> Tell her you need her to write him a No Contact letter.
> 
> If she refuses, just look at her and tell her that you will assume she's picking him over you. And you will make plans to move on.
> 
> (note that this doesn't happen immediately; doesn't mean you're packing a bag and leaving. This gives you time to make a point; she'll see you looking up lawyers; looking for apartments, etc. She'll get it - him or you.)


Why is it so obvious to everyone on this board that this has to be done yet you refuse to see it? 



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> ...she hasn't actually contacted him for 3 weeks now. She just looks him up on Facebook everyday...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:slap:


----------



## F-102

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

She looks him up. That is STILL contact, or as some here would call it, "fishing".

She's hoping that she will find a message from him asking where she's been, then she can say that he contacted HER.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

MrK said:


> Why is it so obvious to everyone on this board that this has to be done yet you refuse to see it?
> 
> 
> 
> :slap:


I will work this in somehow. I have no problem with the letter itself. It is sending it to the other person that I have a problem with. I do not want him to know how deep the emotional attachment is. That just pumps up his ego more. He has done his part to fix this situation from day one. Is it possible to write this letter. I will mail it. But never send it. At least the psychological aspect is taken care of and that is the whole point, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

ConfusedAboutLife said:


> F**k. I will start reading.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No More Mr. Nice Guy
-------------------------------
This is more like it. This book was written about ME. And... It is not about turning a nice guy into an a$$hole. It is explaining that by being a nice guy or a "yes person", as I have described myself at times, I am not really being nice at all. I am creating problems for myself and my loved ones. All the quick fixes and easy way outs have snowballed over the years. This goes back for YEARS. I have a lot of work to do.

Time to keep reading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jfv

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Just tell her that you both have to sit down and write it and see how she reacts.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> No More Mr. Nice Guy
> -------------------------------
> This is more like it. This book was written about ME. And... It is not about turning a nice guy into an a$$hole. It is explaining that by being a nice guy or a "yes person", as I have described myself at times, I am not really being nice at all. I am creating problems for myself and my loved ones. All the quick fixes and easy way outs have snowballed over the years. This goes back for YEARS. I have a lot of work to do.
> 
> Time to keep reading.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hits home doesn't it. Even a strong alpha male could fall into the trap, thinking he's helping others. 

You'll see the changes you need to make, their obvious. You will lead this this marriage out of this dilemma. 

Also 

She's in a state of limerence. You'll need to extinguish this. It will only continue as long as she uses FB or other methods to remind herself of him. Be fair but resolved to break this contact. Keep at it.

Do you think she seems to be slowly coming around? 

Limerence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Ask her to share a facebook account with you and get rid of the personal ones. This would help her as a deterrent not to look him up.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

anchorwatch said:


> Hits home doesn't it. Even a strong alpha male could fall into the trap, thinking he's helping others.
> 
> You'll see the changes you need to make, their obvious. You will lead this this marriage out of this dilemma.
> 
> Also
> 
> She's in a state of limerence. You'll need to extinguish this. It will only continue as long as she uses FB or other methods to remind herself of him. Be fair but resolved to break this contact. Keep at it.
> 
> Do you think she seems to be slowly coming around?
> 
> Limerence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thanks for the new word!

Yes... She seems to be very in tune with what she has done wrong. In her mind, she is positive that she has a plan to fix it. I think that her solution the "easiest" one for herself, not necessarily the correct one. This may be due to the feeling of limerence that she is unaware of. She now knows that i am serious about the "no contact" thing, including looking him up on facebook. I will ask her about this again in a couple days to find out if she is aware that easing out of her emotional attachment is not the best solution. The fact that I have already hit her with so many truths that were hard to hear and sporadically of the course of a few days, makes it difficult to keep prodding her with new ones.

Thanks again... Limerence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

anchorwatch said:


> Ask her to share a facebook account with you and get rid of the personal ones. This would help her as a deterrent not to look him up.


He has a public profile. It is as easy a putting his name into google to look him up. I don't even think that she needs to login.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I will work this in somehow. I have no problem with the letter itself. It is sending it to the other person that I have a problem with. I do not want him to know how deep the emotional attachment is.


Then tell her to write it and email it to YOU. YOU are going to send it to him. Ok? Only you can hold on to it in case he DOES contact her and then send it. In the meantime, she has 'told' him to leave her alone. THAT is powerful.

btw, how are you monitoring her activity? That is part of your 'job' right now - to help HER keep from falling off the wagon.

And you DO have to tell her that looking him up is unacceptable. For you. Make it clear you aren't telling her she can't look him up, ok? You are telling her that if she CHOOSES to look him, YOU will see that as she is not choosing the marriage. That's the #1 message you need to send.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Thanks for the new word!
> 
> Yes... She seems to be very in tune with what she has done wrong. In her mind, she is positive that she has a plan to fix it. I think that her solution the "easiest" one for herself, not necessarily the correct one. This may be due to the feeling of limerence that she is unaware of. She now knows that i am serious about the "no contact" thing, including looking him up on facebook. I will ask her about this again in a couple days to find out if she is aware that easing out of her emotional attachment is not the best solution. The fact that I have already hit her with so many truths that were hard to hear and sporadically of the course of a few days, makes it difficult to keep prodding her with new ones.
> 
> Thanks again... Limerence.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One step at at time. Fair but resolved. 

It's early. She understands the conflict. You'll get there.

You've covered a lot material and come a long way in 72 hours. I commend you. Continue!


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> He has a public profile. It is as easy a putting his name into google to look him up. I don't even think that she needs to login.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 That is why you have to man up and say "You have to stop looking him up."


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> btw, how are you monitoring her activity? That is part of your 'job' right now - to help HER keep from falling off the wagon.
> 
> And you DO have to tell her that looking him up is unacceptable. For you. Make it clear you aren't telling her she can't look him up, ok? You are telling her that if she CHOOSES to look him, YOU will see that as she is not choosing the marriage. That's the #1 message you need to send.


I NEVER though that I would have to monitor her. I am not comfortable doing it and I told her that I would never do it. That being said, I do have a solution. I will give her a few days. I am sure that she has the willpower to stay away for one day. But a few days won't be so easy. I will than ask her if she has looked him up. Yes or no, I will ask to look through the Facebook history. I think that it logs it. If WE see anything, then all bets are off. I will monitor. Should i tell her they she is being monitored? Not telling her seems very deceitful, but then again look at the way I am being treated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



anchorwatch said:


> Also
> 
> She's in a state of limerence. You'll need to extinguish this. It will only continue as long as she uses FB or other methods to remind herself of him. Be fair but resolved to break this contact. Keep at it.
> 
> Do you think she seems to be slowly coming around?
> 
> Limerence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Amazing, it explains so much! I never even heard of this concept.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

That's fine. Wait 3 days and look together - do NOT give her a chance to run in the other room first (to delete stuff).

And YES, she is a drug addict so you HAVE to monitor her - just like you will if your child grows up and gets caught taking drugs. 

Remember, once you get past this, you can come to an agreement for the future. Once you get past this, the affair fog will wear off and she'll (hopefully) be herself again and be appalled at herself, at how she almost destroyed the marriage. And - assuming YOU have been holding up your end of the bargain and fixing YOUR side - you'll be be having a much better marriage so she'll be glad you saved her. (and after you finish NMMNG and incorporate it)


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

As distasteful as monitoring is, it may be a necessity at some point. I would not tell her and be careful about how you share the information you get. You don't want to drive her underground. The computer is her main method of contact so a Keylogger is a good tool. Check the on line records for the cell phone and home phone (if your company offers it). That should be enough in your case. Voice recorders is overkill right now.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Since most of their contact is via FB, a keylogger is vital. If you suspect they move on to texting/calling, check the phone records for one number she contacts all the time.

And no you do NOT tell her you're monitoring! Finish the book and then tell us if you still believe you should tell her.


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## ConfusedAboutLife

The Middleman said:


> As distasteful as monitoring is, it may be a necessity at some point. I would not tell her and be careful about how you share the information you get. You don't want to drive her underground. The computer is her main method of contact so a Keylogger is a good tool. Check the on line records for the cell phone and home phone (if your company offers it). That should be enough in your case. Voice recorders is overkill right now.


Middleman, you are hardcore. I think that she can keep her privacy until I do what I suggested in the post above. She was very loving when I got home from work this morning. She had a night to think about EVERYTHING. It is now all on the table. I think that it has clicked in her head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Until her next urge to check on him and pray that he wants her and contacts her.


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Middleman, you are hardcore. I think that she can keep her privacy until I do what I suggested in the post above. She was very loving when I got home from work this morning. She had a night to think about EVERYTHING. It is now all on the table. I think that it has clicked in her head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just trying to help. I'm no where near as hardcore as some of the others on this board. I'll admit when I had my issue, I went nuclear, but I wanted to stop it before it got to the point where you are.

As I said, I don't think that you need to monitor right away, just be prepared to do so. If you feel you are making progress then wonderful ... You are doing a good job.* But remember affairs are tricky things and women that get caught up in what folks here call the fog do very deceitful things to their husbands. You have to verify things, your can't leave it to just your feelings.*

It might be a good idea to take a look around these boards at some of the horror stories on affairs. For me the worst case of a wife cheating can be found here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/57247-she-cheated-i-hate-my-life.html#post1107509 What this woman did to her poor husband made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. You'll have to have to read 30 to 40 pages into the thread to see the horror of what she did. It's when you read stuff like that, you'll understand why you need to do this stuff and take hard positions.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

One thing you have to remember. You have to look at it like this: She broke the covenant of your marriage, whether she knew she was doing it or not. Therefore, you need to 'right the ship,' so to speak; and that means that she has lost your trust. She needs to earn it back. One way to do that is for you to monitor her. If she finds out and is mad, that's a bad sign for your marriage. But at first, you should not tell her that you are monitoring - once she's back to normal, she'll be glad you helped her come back. And if you catch her contacting him again, you will have to come down hard, just as you would with a teenager taking drugs again.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> Again, I'm going to disagree with you. Opposite sex friends bring in *the risk* of emotional attachments developing and therefore, by default are toxic to a marriage. I'm not saying it happens in every case but the risk alone makes it toxic. I hate to say it but this was not an agreement between my wife and I. I said this is how it's going to be or we need to go our seperate ways; the choice was hers to make. Not exactly something I'm proud of doing but that's how strongly I feel about it. In the end I think our marriage is healthier for it.





The Middleman said:


> I really it's a generational thing. As you can tell from my postings I'm not afraid of being called controlling, but I'm in my mid fifties and married 30 years. The values are different.
> 
> The guys who struggle with this are in their 30's and younger. These guys have been "feminized" by America's politically correct education system, the popular culture and their mothers. There have been extensive articles written on this. At he same time, women in the same age bracket are being trained by the educational system and culture not to have men determine their destinies. Thus the dilemma. I'm not saying that this is 100% true in all cases, but this is the general trend.
> 
> Edit: Dr. Glover covers this in his book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"


I'm in my fifties too so it's not generational.

Risks can be managed.

I have no interest in bossing my wife around. It is a partnership of equals. I can certainly think of things that are non-negotiable but we talk through them.

Treating your wife as an adult does not make you a doormat.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> Not saying you do. But after you read through so many of these threads you will see what I am talking about.
> 
> I have not read through this whole thread, but it comes down to just being assertive with your boundaries. You first have to know what they are. We are often taught to be fair so it is common for people to want to be fair and compromise their boundaries. BAD IDEA. Compromising true boundaries is compromising your integrity. This helps no one. Certainly not the marriage. So to be sure we need to compromise and have an equitable relationship. That said there are fundamental boundaries that protect the marriage. If the marriage is the number one priotiy for both spouses then they can usually agree to these boundaries.
> 
> If you have not done His Needs Her Needs I suggest you do. Together as a couple. For sure do the boundary setting. This is a boundary issue.
> 
> Before I had an EA I was certain that men and women could be close friends. I was certain I had too much character to be unfaithful. The problem was that this was a clear mental though process. Unfortunately when you bond closely with someone else you do not realize until you are in deep, that what you are into is wrong. In fact it usually takes the other spouse to even identify it. I was well into withdrawal before I saw it as an EA. My wife said that right along. I thought she was wrong. We were just really good freinds and we cared for each other ... Anyway, because I loved my wife I listened to her. She was right. I learned an incredible life lesson. I was naive, stupid and selfish.
> 
> Anyway, a woman pursuing another man is the mating ritual that can indeed lead to the husband being cuckolded. Switch the genders and it amounts to pretty much the same thing. The cuckold referencing that often these men end up raising other men's children.


So for example why not be open with your spouse about the relationship? Ask her to warn you if she thinks things are getting dangerous?


----------



## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

_Your wife _knows best what she needs. Not a big fan of self help books. Not to mention, in psychiatry historically are some of the most horrific examples of so-called experts being wrong..

If you act like you know what's best for her it won't get a loving response. Listen to your wife.

It goes both ways. She's done what you asked. She stopped contacting him and told you why it happened directly and honestly. Why keep asking? Focus on each other. Seems pretty obvious you're crazy about one other so you must have done many things well so far. No reason to blow it out of proportion. 

Speaking of spending time with family, need to get back to mine..


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> And yet let us remember that in both our circumsyances there was infidelity. One bout of such a thing is too many. Not worth the risk IMO. But for others it is.
> 
> What is not wise is to make the same bad choices again and again.


In my case my wife fell into an affair with a college tutor, encouraged by some friends who were fellow students. To prevent a repeat I would have to forbid friends in case they prove to be toxics, and forbid her to go to college (or work, or out without me, or....well you get the point.)


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> I'm in my fifties too so it's not generational.
> 
> Risks can be managed.
> 
> I have no interest in bossing my wife around. It is a partnership of equals. I can certainly think of things that are non-negotiable but we talk through them.
> 
> Treating your wife as an adult does not make you a doormat.


Wazza, I hear ya and maybe we should agree to disagree. Trust me when I tell you there is no way in the world I can boss my wife around, BUT when the s1hit hit the fan in my case and e-mails were being exchanged between my wife and an "old friend" who just happened to be an old boyfriend from high school, I just said this ends or we go our seperate ways. Non-negotiable. There was nothing inappropriate about what she did, but I don't take undo risks when it comes to what's mine. I don't want to wind up like others here. (End of thread hijack)


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> Just because you did not have sex with those guys does not mean it did not impact your marriage.
> 
> Your hubby has to own hsi affair. You are not to blame for that. However, damage to marriage occurs to marriages by unfaithfulness whether it leads to actual sex or not.
> 
> Thisn topic has been discussed many times on this forum. In general we have learned that many women feel opposite sex friends are ok. They say they are not sexually drawn to the other men. BUT, it is the emotioanl bonding that is the mating ritual.
> 
> To be sure most of your male friends find you sexually desirable. Not saying they would cheat. But they would be tempted if you straight up offerred them sex. Ask them some time.
> 
> Aks yourself this. Pick your sexiest freind for this experiment. If you were alone say one evening with them in their home / apartment and they palyed the old drop the towell after a shower. What would you do?
> 
> Now, lets switch that around. If you were the one dropping the towell, what would they do? I say more often that most women think the guy would take them up on it. In fact a guy that allows himself to be alone with that women in that circumstance is just waiting to win the lottery. Guys will not invest a lot of time in a woman if they are not interested.


Ok, you have a point. I will avoid playing drop the towel with opposite sex friends.

Heck, you want me to avoid every beautiful woman who can trigger a sexy thought, I will have to shut myself up in a barrel!


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> In my case my wife fell into an affair with a college tutor, encouraged by some friends who were fellow students. To prevent a repeat I would have to forbid friends in case they prove to be toxics, and forbid her to go to college (or work, or out without me, or....well you get the point.)


Is your story posted anywhere?


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> The addiction might not kill a person but it could kill their marriage and emotionally destroy the OP.
> 
> I disagree with your stand on the Keyloggers, it's a tool to help the OP protect his wife from herself. While it might not be the best of choices it would give him the visibility he needs and hopefully peace of mind.


Total honesty required from her but you reserve the right to spy on her without telling her? What is things were reversed?


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> Total honesty required from her but you reserve the right to spy on her without telling her? What is things were reversed?


If you mean how would I feel about my wife spying on me if she just caught me at the beginning of an emotional affair? Well, knowing what I know now, I would have to expect it. She would need a comfort level that I'm toeing the line. If I did that stuff I deserve to be spied on.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> 1) He does seem to be a "stand-up" guy. I have no hatred toward this person and I told my wife that. This made her feel better.
> 
> 2) In the course of me surprising her by everything that I now know about what was going in in her head, I flat out told her that "Your strong emotional attachment to this person has an addictive property. I know that every time a new text messages from him, you get a little high." The reply as she was crying was a pause and a nod. Hence, "In so many words..."
> 
> 3) I can ask her to not look at his page, but I cannot cut Facebook altogether. I feel bad enough for the step that I have already taken. She would definitely take that the wrong way. I want to see if anything is better first before I make anymore drastic moves. As I told you also, she is writing a book and relies heavily on social networking blogs to market herself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Women stray with standup guys all of the time. A stndup guy would cut contact completely and block her. Hopefully he does.

Maybe you could borrow her compute. Get you one.

Anyway, her crying validates the addiction to the other person. She may realize she is hurting you. That said as someone who was in an EA I can tell you she must go NC with this guy. 

Froget about feeling bad. No man should feel bad for loving his wife and saving a marriage. Feel good about that.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> Wouldn't say this is like heroine since it won't kill anyone.
> Installing a keylogger isn't wise. It's essentially stalking and would turn a mild problem (relative to what it could be) into a massive one.


These are the same brain chemicals as with cocaine.

Stalking. UFB. LOL. Absurd. I say the OM is the stalker.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Well... I might not be back at square 1, but I definitely just took it back quite a bit. I just told her that I wanted to talk to her briefly to ask her a couple of questions that I did not ask yesterday.
> 
> 1) Me: Do you still have any contact whatsoever with this person?
> Her: No. None.
> 
> 2) Me: I know that you still look him up everyday on facebook. Is that true?
> Her: No. Not everyday.
> Me: But most days, right?
> Her: No. (frustrated). I just want to see how he's doing.
> Me: I don't think that that is a good idea. You can't do that anymore. Every time you do you take yourself back to square 1. Your emotional attachment has addictive properties and every time you look him up it is like getting another hit.
> Her: Don't tell me what to do.
> Me: If you really want to fix this, you need to stop all contact.
> Her: I have. I haven't contacted him at all.
> Me: He hasn't contact you, but you have contact with him every day. You have to stop all contact. It is a cold-turkey type of thing.
> 
> I tried to tell her that I love her and try to kiss her on the forehead. She put her hands up.


You did this right. This is tough love. But again as someone who has been there, in the early stages one will attempt to backslide. You did good. So next time she thinks about looking him up she will know she should not be doing this as she is being unfaithful.

This is an addiction. It takes at least a few weeks of total NC. The clock starts over anytime contact is made. he looking him up is not a good thing but her not interacting with him is critical. She will eventually stop this if you stay firm and do not start to compromise.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I NEVER though that I would have to monitor her. I am not comfortable doing it and I told her that I would never do it. That being said, I do have a solution. I will give her a few days. I am sure that she has the willpower to stay away for one day. But a few days won't be so easy. I will than ask her if she has looked him up. Yes or no, I will ask to look through the Facebook history. I think that it logs it. If WE see anything, then all bets are off. I will monitor. Should i tell her they she is being monitored? Not telling her seems very deceitful, but then again look at the way I am being treated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Life is not always comfortable. Conflict avoidance is a symptom of someone who is afraid to step out of their comfort zone. get comfortable with being an assertive, compassionate man of action who does not avoid conflict. Conflict is part of problem resolution. Learn to embrace it when it is called for.

I think you should sit down and agree to transparency. transparency is not about monitoring as much as it is about being open to your partner. A partner should be looking out for the other. This is a level of intimacy many people have trouble with. It takes intelligent loving people.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Middleman, you are hardcore. I think that she can keep her privacy until I do what I suggested in the post above. She was very loving when I got home from work this morning. She had a night to think about EVERYTHING. It is now all on the table. I think that it has clicked in her head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no room for privacy in a marriage. Either you are partners or you are not. Privacy is for the restroom. 

It does take a level of maturity to have true transparency.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> So for example why not be open with your spouse about the relationship? Ask her to warn you if she thinks things are getting dangerous?


I have cobered this before. In a partnership we look after each other. Why? Beacuse we ALL have tunnel vision. 

You see I have actually been in an EA. You are only guessing. When you are operating under the influence of the chemicals you do not see the danger you are in. This is not about managing risk. You just flat do not get it ... yet. I am not being mean but you miss the most important aspects of this stuff.

You do not let a drunk driver, drive to the police to turn themselves in. This is not about character. This is not about calculated risk. This is about addictions.

YMMV.

My wife indeed did this BTW. We have always had transparency. She did engage when she thought a line had been crossed. I listened to her. She saved our marriage. No more close female friends for me. I learned my lesson. Some folks learn and others repeat the same problems again and again.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> In my case my wife fell into an affair with a college tutor, encouraged by some friends who were fellow students. To prevent a repeat I would have to forbid friends in case they prove to be toxics, and forbid her to go to college (or work, or out without me, or....well you get the point.)


No. Sorry. I disagree. If you were in tune with your wife and you had true transparency you could have intervened sooner. Not blaming you but indeed, you were not helpless either. You should tell her having close opposite sex friends is a boundary for you. But alas you prefer to take the risks. That is your choice.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> Ok, you have a point. I will avoid playing drop the towel with opposite sex friends.
> 
> Heck, you want me to avoid every beautiful woman who can trigger a sexy thought, I will have to shut myself up in a barrel!


Surely you are not this obtuse but are just providing some comedy relief.

The point for the lady was for her to realize that many of these guys would jump at the chance. Did you get something else from this? Wow. Amazing.

It comes down to how important a marriage is for folks. Some not so much.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> Total honesty required from her but you reserve the right to spy on her without telling her? What is things were reversed?


It is called transparency. It saved my marriage. Try it if you have not yet. Good stuff. It does take maturity and a desire for intimacy.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> _Your wife _knows best what she needs. Not a big fan of self help books. Not to mention, in psychiatry historically are some of the most horrific examples of so-called experts being wrong..
> 
> If you act like you know what's best for her it won't get a loving response. Listen to your wife.
> 
> It goes both ways. She's done what you asked. She stopped contacting him and told you why it happened directly and honestly. Why keep asking? Focus on each other. Seems pretty obvious you're crazy about one other so you must have done many things well so far. No reason to blow it out of proportion.
> 
> Speaking of spending time with family, need to get back to mine..


Mule, what you say sounds perfectly logical. And, without an affair going on, I would agree wholeheartedly. But you can research study after study after study and you will learn the same thing - the INSTANT a person enters into an affair, THEY CHANGE.

They may LOOK like your spouse, but their entire viewpoint has changed. They no longer put YOUR needs and YOUR happiness first. And there IS a fog and they DO have to go through withdrawal because they (especially women) have removed their affection from you and placed it ON the OM. That doesn't change back overnight. OP's wife has proved that by looking up OM on FB. 

So you don't believe in self help books, which were written by experts in their field (should we tell you how to do YOUR job?). Great. But if you're going to go around telling BSs to 'just trust' your cheating spouse, the LEAST you could do is read 10 or 20 other threads first and see the pattern we describe.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

As you know Turnera, that describes my situation EXACTLY.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> No. Sorry. I disagree. If you were in tune with your wife and you had true transparency you could have intervened sooner. Not blaming you but indeed, you were not helpless either. You should tell her having close opposite sex friends is a boundary for you. But alas you prefer to take the risks. That is your choice.


She was gong to college. First time I heard of this guy was when she had been caught kissing him. I intervened immediately. It took six months to get her to end it.

Never met him, I only learned later that he had been hanging out with a bunch of the students. Hence my point. Do I forbid her any social setting where males are present? If not, then what is the boundary?


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> Is your story posted anywhere?


I tell bits of it in threads where it is relevant. It was many years ago and I've never seen the need to start my own thread on the topic.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> I have cobered this before. In a partnership we look after each other. Why? Beacuse we ALL have tunnel vision.
> 
> You see I have actually been in an EA. You are only guessing. When you are operating under the influence of the chemicals you do not see the danger you are in. This is not about managing risk. You just flat do not get it ... yet. I am not being mean but you miss the most important aspects of this stuff.
> 
> You do not let a drunk driver, drive to the police to turn themselves in. This is not about character. This is not about calculated risk. This is about addictions.
> 
> YMMV.
> 
> My wife indeed did this BTW. We have always had transparency. She did engage when she thought a line had been crossed. I listened to her. She saved our marriage. No more close female friends for me. I learned my lesson. Some folks learn and others repeat the same problems again and again.


Actually, after my wife's affair my marriage was pretty awful and I did fall in love with someone else. The attraction was mutual but so was our shared belief in the sanctity of marriage. Nothing happened. I told her my feelings and we set boundaries.

Had she been willing to enter an affair with me, there is a real danger something would have happened. But butterflies in the stomach at the thought of them, wanting to share with them more than anything, the high you get at the thought of them, wanting go hold them and kiss them....yeah I get it.

I don't think of it as an EA, I think of it as a near miss at a PA. But by the definitions on TAM I guess it was an EA perhaps.

Oh and I told my wife and asked for her help to keep me honest.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> Oh and I told my wife and asked for her help to keep me honest.


 You would be one in 1000, then.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> You would be one in 1000, then.


Perhaps, and if someone else does it it will be two in a thousand. We can change the world!!!! 

I get the danger of opposite sex friends, and I still live with the fallout of infidelity. The LAST thing I want is another such episode in my marriage.

Was mine an EA? Dunno. When I realised where my head was going I stopped it. But I needed help and support. I'm with Entropy that I would not trust myself to have made rational judgements and managed those feelings alone.


----------



## DCMarriageCounselor

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



turnera said:


> But you can research study after study after study and you will learn the same thing - the INSTANT a person enters into an affair, THEY CHANGE.
> 
> They may LOOK like your spouse, but their entire viewpoint has changed. They no longer put YOUR needs and YOUR happiness first. And there IS a fog and they DO have to go through withdrawal because they (especially women) have removed their affection from you and placed it ON the OM. That doesn't change back overnight.


Right on Turnera...I dunno about THE INSTANT a person enters the affair. After doing a fair bit of invasive surgery to figure this out I sometimes find the concrete starts to get poured somewhere in the moment that the mind is made up that "I don't care about the consequences if I hurt my partner"

A lot of people never have affairs but have this "affair energy" about them and they seem to skate under the radar as if they aren't doing just as much damage as the guy that shacks up or texts his secretary at three in the morning. 

I think John Gottman...the marriage researcher that claims he can spot a couple that will eventually divorce after 10 seconds of observation across a crowded room at a restaurant...calls it the "four horsemen of the Apocalypse": resentment, stonewalling, contempt and one other one I can't remember.


----------



## warlock07

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Well... I might not be back at square 1, but I definitely just took it back quite a bit. I just told her that I wanted to talk to her briefly to ask her a couple of questions that I did not ask yesterday.
> 
> 1) Me: Do you still have any contact whatsoever with this person?
> Her: No. None.
> 
> 2) Me: I know that you still look him up everyday on facebook. Is that true?
> Her: No. Not everyday.
> Me: But most days, right?
> Her: No. (frustrated). I just want to see how he's doing.
> Me: I don't think that that is a good idea. You can't do that anymore. Every time you do you take yourself back to square 1. Your emotional attachment has addictive properties and every time you look him up it is like getting another hit.
> Her: Don't tell me what to do.
> Me: If you really want to fix this, you need to stop all contact.
> Her: I have. I haven't contacted him at all.
> Me: He hasn't contact you, but you have contact with him every day. You have to stop all contact. It is a cold-turkey type of thing.
> 
> I tried to tell her that I love her and try to kiss her on the forehead. She put her hands up.


You could have had a better discussion about it. This can come off as controlling to someone like your wife.(Based on what you told us about her)

And Confused, absolutely don't snoop on your wife... I think it will damage your relationship if she finds out about it. Your wife was as honest as she could be most of the times. Respect that.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Right on Turnera...I dunno about THE INSTANT a person enters the affair. After doing a fair bit of invasive surgery to figure this out I sometimes find the concrete starts to get poured somewhere in the moment that the mind is made up that "I don't care about the consequences if I hurt my partner"
> 
> A lot of people never have affairs but have this "affair energy" about them and they seem to skate under the radar as if they aren't doing just as much damage as the guy that shacks up or texts his secretary at three in the morning.
> 
> I think John Gottman...the marriage researcher that claims he can spot a couple that will eventually divorce after 10 seconds of observation across a crowded room at a restaurant...calls it the "four horsemen of the Apocalypse": resentment, stonewalling, contempt and one other one I can't remember.


I think it can set before they make the mind up that they don't care about the consequences. Some people go into affairs consciously, while others get there by a series of small steps that erode boundaries.

My wife was, I think, denying to herself that she was in an affair and denying to herself that she was doing anything to hurt me, even while she was with him.

Crazy I know. But that is what she thought. She even tried to explain to me how her relationship with him would help us as a couple. 

That's why, whatever boundaries you set, they need to have some margin for error, and something that will hold you accountable if you cross them.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

warlock07 said:


> You could have had a better discussion about it. This can come off as controlling to someone like your wife.(Based on what you told us about her)
> 
> And Confused, absolutely don't snoop on your wife... I think it will damage your relationship if she finds out about it. Your wife was as honest as she could be most of the times. Respect that.


How could I have done this better? I asked her the questions that I needed to know the answer to, straight out. I could have pu$$yfooted around this issue and drug it out for a week of pain. Or ignore it all together and let the pain eventually subside, which is the root cause of 90% of our problems in the past. If she thinks that I am controlling... So be it. Good for me, because this is a situation that she has lost control of. Eventually she will realize, and I think that she already has, that I am only controlling this situation, not her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> How could I have done this better? I asked her the questions that I needed to know the answer to, straight out. I could have pu$$yfooted around this issue and drug it out for a week of pain. Or ignore it all together and let the pain eventually subside, which is the root cause of 90% of our problems in the past. If she thinks that I am controlling... So be it. Good for me, because this is a situation that she has lost control of. Eventually she will realize, and I think that she already has, that I am only controlling this situation, not her life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ConfusedAboutLife:
*You have absolutely done the right thing and don't you dare question your actions.* Unlike others, I don't feel being controlling (within reason) is a bad thing, especially if a third party is entering your marriage. You absolutely have to control this particular situation. If she so objects to this "controlling" under these circumstances and leaves you *as a result of this issue only*, then I would ask, did you have a healthy marriage in the first place?

As far as the snooping goes, don't be afraid to do it if/when* you feel it's necessary*. Remember this is a tool to help save your marriage.

_EDIT: It's a good thing that you acted quickly and decisively and did not ignore the issue. If you had allowed your wife to meet him when she went back east, there is a high probability that they would have become physical. Also, it seems that your wife is doing the right things, although somewhat reluctantly. This is a good sign.
_


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> How could I have done this better? I asked her the questions that I needed to know the answer to, straight out. I could have pu$$yfooted around this issue and drug it out for a week of pain. Or ignore it all together and let the pain eventually subside, which is the root cause of 90% of our problems in the past. *If she thinks that I am controlling... So be it.* Good for me, because this is a situation that she has lost control of. Eventually she will realize, and I think that she already has, that I am only controlling this situation, not her life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This, times one THOUSAND and sixteen! Be controlling, and do not let another man run your marriage.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> This, times one THOUSAND and sixteen! Be controlling, and do not let another man run your marriage.


If she is truly intelligent and loves him she will come to appreciate his intervention after she goes through withdrawal.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> If she is truly intelligent and loves him she will come to appreciate his intervention after she goes through withdrawal.


Depening on how deep she is in now. Mine was in too deep, just wanted to walk away. Not sure intellegence plays into the picture if she is in the fog.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

The fog only goes away AFTER the OM leaves the picture. If he never leaves, or she just latches on to ANOTHER man, it won't go away.


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

There's no OW in my case (averted!), and my husband is now reading His Needs, Her Needs. He is finally coming to the understanding of the damage we avoided, simply by him not having this woman in his life! He, too, appreciates the way I shut it all down before it ever had the chance to (re)start. She was an 'ex'.


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Oh, and by the way...this is almost 2 YEARS of this for us...it never really seems to go away.


----------



## Saki

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Well... I might not be back at square 1, but I definitely just took it back quite a bit. I just told her that I wanted to talk to her briefly to ask her a couple of questions that I did not ask yesterday.
> 
> 1) Me: Do you still have any contact whatsoever with this person?
> Her: No. None.
> 
> 2) Me: I know that you still look him up everyday on facebook. Is that true?
> Her: No. Not everyday.
> Me: But most days, right?
> Her: No. (frustrated). I just want to see how he's doing.
> Me: I don't think that that is a good idea. You can't do that anymore. Every time you do you take yourself back to square 1. Your emotional attachment has addictive properties and every time you look him up it is like getting another hit.
> Her: Don't tell me what to do.
> Me: If you really want to fix this, you need to stop all contact.
> Her: I have. I haven't contacted him at all.
> Me: He hasn't contact you, but you have contact with him every day. You have to stop all contact. It is a cold-turkey type of thing.
> 
> I tried to tell her that I love her and try to kiss her on the forehead. She put her hands up.


I think you did well here. 

You could have improved your performance by dropping the I love you and kiss at the end (would have been more effective to get up and walk away). You don't need to reassure her, it's her problem, she has to deal with the mess.

Also it seems like you could have laid a very clearly defined boundry here, whereas you came off as attempting to tell her what to do.

Besides seeming controlling, you probably peaked her sense of defiance "He says I can't contact the OM, well I'll show him" is probably what she was thinking.

Simply adding this on the end of the discussion, and again, not showing affection and getting up and walking away, would have left no doubt in her mind AND made it clear you were only attempting to control yourself:

you: "Throughout all of this, I have felt like our marriage is not a priority to you. I am not interested in being in a marriage that is not a priority to my wife. If you continue to contact him, I'll _______ "

I think you should fill in the blank with whatever you are HONESTLY willing to do. Divorce? Kick her out the house? Withhold affection? Throw the computer out the window?

The formula is simple. "If you do this, I'll do that" It makes the focus YOU and YOUR actions, whereas "you need to stop doing this" puts the focus on HER and HER actions, which you have no control over.


----------



## Doingmybest

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I wanted to post a message of support for the OP in stopping the FB interaction immediately. I have a similar story, with my wife getting chatty of FB with an old high school flame, and getting all hot and bothered with me. She wasn't being secretive exactly, but she was pushing boundaries I wasn't aware of. We laughed it off at first, and I (stupid, stupid me) even said "Whatever you are doing, keep doing it!"

I caught her on a secret phone call with the guy with the two of them convincing themselves there was nothing inappropriate about their communications, and therefore they could continue. I (again stupidly) was okay with this since my wife was clearly trying to maintain boundaries - until I saw that they were FB'ing about dates in high school and what they found attractive about one another.

I shut it down at that point, found web sites that made clear the path to doom that an EA has, and found TAM. Wife was very remorseful once shown the danger, gave up FB access, and started going through withdrawal from the fog.

I credit this site for making it clear to me how dangerous it all was, and it may have saved our marriage.

FB is dangerous. Full transparency is the only way - if you aren't comfortable showing your spouse, don't write it.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Doingmybest said:


> I shut it down at that point, found web sites that made clear the path to doom that an EA has, and found TAM. Wife was very remorseful once shown the danger, gave up FB access, and started going through withdrawal from the fog.
> 
> I credit this site for making it clear to me how dangerous it all was, and it may have saved our marriage.
> 
> FB is dangerous. Full transparency is the only way - if you aren't comfortable showing your spouse, don't write it.


Good...i was too late. I wish i was more knowledgeable about all this stuff two years ago, and worked on it then. FB was a contibutor for sure, but the privacy of cell phones helps tremendously too. All tools for the cheater. I believe if they are going to cheat, you cant stop them...these just make it easier.


----------



## Doingmybest

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Garry2012 said:


> Good...i was too late. I wish i was more knowledgeable about all this stuff two years ago, and worked on it then. FB was a contibutor for sure, but the privacy of cell phones helps tremendously too. All tools for the cheater. I believe if they are going to cheat, you cant stop them...these just make it easier.


Sorry to hear you were too late. I don't entirely agree with the inevitability of a person cheating. There are certainly some people where that is true, but I think the danger can be more insidious. A potential wayward can head down that path and get caught up in the fog while thinking they aren't doing anything wrong at each earlier step of the process.

And for some reason Facebook makes it even easier to delude one's self that it won't go that far. At least it did with my wife.

Cell phones sure do make it easier to hide stuff.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Garry2012 said:


> Depening on how deep she is in now. Mine was in too deep, just wanted to walk away. Not sure intellegence plays into the picture if she is in the fog.


That is my point. She must go through withdrawal, have maturity and a clue AND actually love her husband.

I am with you on the too deep. This is why I am so adamant about dealing with EAs as early as possible. Too often people say well I know something is not right but everything they are doing seems so innocent. They do not realize that innocent stuff IS the EA developing. The bonding which generates the brain chemicals ( fog ). Giving space for the EA is not helpful. The longer it goes the harder it is to reach them and the more damage to the marriage. Also if someone is willing to risk their marriage by refusing to go NC that tells us that they are too deep. If someone cries over losing that "friend" they are more than just friends.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Doingmybest said:


> Sorry to hear you were too late. I don't entirely agree with the inevitability of a person cheating. There are certainly some people where that is true, but I think the danger can be more insidious. A potential wayward can head down that path and get caught up in the fog while thinking they aren't doing anything wrong at each earlier step of the process.
> 
> And for some reason Facebook makes it even easier to delude one's self that it won't go that far. At least it did with my wife.
> 
> Cell phones sure do make it easier to hide stuff.


Exactly. Most folks in EAs truly believe it is just a deep friendship. It feels ok. They are impaired though.

Folks are very focused on cheating. I get it. Cheating would be a deal breaker for me, but to be sure the damage to the marriage is ocurring way before there is cheating. Folks can stay in an EA for a long time and never have sex and completely destroy a marriage. However, EAs can jump to a PA in literally no time at all as well. This is particularly true when one of them is a predator and knows how to manipulate things. Instigation, Isolation and Escalation. 

I see things as follows :

Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness --> Cheating.

Unfaithfulness is when the spouse is trying to hide the relationship. They tell lies and or lie by omission. The level of intimacy grows dramtically. It indeed IS a very close friendship. Much like one wants to have with this marriage partner. It becomes obsessive. They start meeting with the AP. Essentially dating them behind the back of their spouse. To me this unfaithfulness is a level of cheating. But one can be unfaithful well before things turn sexual. It becomes romantic. They may not see this. They may feel that they have someone who they care about. Other people just do not understand.

We as a society have not developed adequate boundaries to deal with the technology advances of the past so many years.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Garry2012 said:


> Good...i was too late. I wish i was more knowledgeable about all this stuff two years ago, and worked on it then. FB was a contibutor for sure, but the privacy of cell phones helps tremendously too. All tools for the cheater. I believe if they are going to cheat, you cant stop them...these just make it easier.


The problem is that most people in affairs are not looking to cheat. You can intervene with them. You must do it early on. Most people in EAs do not realize they are in EAs. The are not intending to cheat. But like it or not they are indeed falling in love with someone else and falling out of love with their partner.

The take away is to intervene before they decide to cheat. But that decision can occur in an instant.

Instigation -- They plan to get together.

Isolation -- They meet alone together.

Escalation -- They talk about things and one of the other gets emotional. One may cry on the others shoulder. It just got physical there. Then an embrace and a kiss and perhpas no turning back.

The unfaithfulness was indeed during the instigation. But it lead to cheating. It is easy to say that character should hold someone back and I get that. However, this is how it goes.

Sooooooo. Just saying if someone wants to cheat, I think is missing something very important. That while there are some folks who intend to cheat, there are way more folks who have very poor boundaries and allow themselves to go down a very bad path where it is difficult to stop. 

So I am a believer in partners looking out for one another. You can indeed interven BEFORE someone decides to cheat in many cases. But one must be firm and there must be NC ... early on.


----------



## Garry2012

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> That is my point. She must go through withdrawal, have maturity and a clue AND actually love her husband.
> 
> I am with you on the too deep. This is why I am so adamant about dealing with EAs as early as possible. Too often people say well I know something is not right but everything they are doing seems so innocent. They do not realize that innocent stuff IS the EA developing. The bonding which generates the brain chemicals ( fog ). Giving space for the EA is not helpful. The longer it goes the harder it is to reach them and the more damage to the marriage. Also if someone is willing to risk their marriage by refusing to go NC that tells us that they are too deep. If someone cries over losing that "friend" they are more than just friends.


Yeah, admittedly I was TOTALLY ignorant about what was going on, didnt really know what an EA even was, and failed to realize I needed to head anything off to begin with. So, like you said, she cares less about that marriage, wont go to MC and we will divorce. So, there is your case in point.

To tie it back to this thread, the concern is justified....to me its not jealousy, thats the WS way to belittle your concern.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> If she so objects to this "controlling" under these circumstances and leaves you *as a result of this issue only*, then I would ask, did you have a healthy marriage in the first place?


Yikes... the marriage is expendable if it doesn't fit into a notion of "healthy" that has been determined by a group of strangers on a forum? 

I think the OP was happy in his marriage prior to the EA... Isn't the goal to get back to that place? (But with better protection against future EAs?) 

The development of a refined notion of healthy was supposed to be the means, and the marriage was supposed to be the end, not the other way around.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> The problem is that most people in affairs are not looking to cheat. You can intervene with them. You must do it early on. Most people in EAs do not realize they are in EAs. The are not intending to cheat. But like it or not they are indeed falling in love with someone else and falling out of love with their partner.
> 
> The take away is to intervene before they decide to cheat. But that decision can occur in an instant.
> 
> Instigation -- They plan to get together.
> 
> Isolation -- They meet alone together.
> 
> Escalation -- They talk about things and one of the other gets emotional. One may cry on the others shoulder. It just got physical there. Then an embrace and a kiss and perhpas no turning back.
> 
> The unfaithfulness was indeed during the instigation. But it lead to cheating. It is easy to say that character should hold someone back and I get that. However, this is how it goes.
> 
> Sooooooo. Just saying if someone wants to cheat, I think is missing something very important. That while there are some folks who intend to cheat, there are way more folks who have very poor boundaries and allow themselves to go down a very bad path where it is difficult to stop.
> 
> So I am a believer in partners looking out for one another. You can indeed interven BEFORE someone decides to cheat in many cases. But one must be firm and there must be NC ... early on.


Entropy I agree with you on this.

Do you think Facebook, cell phones, etc are inherently bad in themselves or is the real issue poor boundaries and secrecy?

My approach depends on total openness with my wife, and one of the things there is she knows what is going on with my female friends, whereas they don't know all that goes on with her. Ie I don't let myself into the position where I can feel I have this special "just us" thing with anyone but my wife.

Would such boundaries have worked for you?


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> Yikes... the marriage is expendable if it doesn't fit into a notion of "healthy" that has been determined by a group of strangers on a forum?
> 
> I think the OP was happy in his marriage prior to the EA... Isn't the goal to get back to that place? (But with better protection against future EAs?)
> 
> The development of a refined notion of healthy was supposed to be the means, and the marriage was supposed to be the end, not the other way around.


Either you totally misunderstood me or I didn't express myself clearly at all. Let's take the OP out of this for a moment and use a generic couple. If a wife in the fog of an emotional affair considers her husband's trying to end the affair controlling behavior and objects to this "controlling" so much that the wife leaves the husband for it, then I would have to ask myself was the marriage a healthy one in the first place? Is that any clearer?


----------



## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

And it looks like we scared away ConfusedAboutLife


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Wazza said:


> Entropy I agree with you on this.
> 
> Do you think Facebook, cell phones, etc are inherently bad in themselves or is the real issue poor boundaries and secrecy?
> 
> I think society has not adapted to them. The sun is good and bad. Some folks are best to limit their exposure and or wear sunscreen.
> 
> My approach depends on total openness with my wife, and one of the things there is she knows what is going on with my female friends, whereas they don't know all that goes on with her. Ie I don't let myself into the position where I can feel I have this special "just us" thing with anyone but my wife.
> 
> Would such boundaries have worked for you?


Transparency s what save my marriage. However, I thought I was fine. It took my wife to tell me I was not fine. I did not believe her, but chose to trust her. She was right.

I think it comes down to defining what too close is for a given couple. I suggest that many folks these days allow themselves to bond too closely with OSFs and it hurts their marriage even when there is not a sexual affair.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

The Middleman said:


> And it looks like we scared away ConfusedAboutLife


You did no such thing. I have been stuck to this thread all day. I am sitting this one out. I have been on pins and needles all day hoping upon hope that my wife is doing the right thing for our marriage. I have been at work since 7. Now warming up for my bowling league (= having a beer). I have one night away every week. This is it. She has been by herself all day. A true test after the weekend of reality that was thrown at her. I will confront her about the "no contact" again tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

The Middleman said:


> Either you totally misunderstood me or I didn't express myself clearly at all. Let's take the OP out of this for a moment and use a generic couple. If a wife in the fog of an emotional affair considers her husband's trying to end the affair controlling behavior and objects to this "controlling" so much that the wife leaves the husband for it, then I would have to ask myself was the marriage a healthy one in the first place? Is that any clearer?


If the wife is in an EA then the marriage has issues regardless of what the husband does. However that does not mean all is lost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spazmonkey

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Sorry, I did skim a little through your post. But, I don't think you are being silly by feeling jealous about her friendship with this guy. My husband is very close friends with an employee of his, and I am increasingly jealous over this. I think it's a very natural way to feel. I am not a believer that male/female relationships are ever 100% platonic on both sides. When opposite sex friendships get close enough to share personal information that should be shared first, if not only, with the spouse, there is bound to be some jealousy issues...


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## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



spazmonkey said:


> Sorry, I did skim a little through your post. But, I don't think you are being silly by feeling jealous about her friendship with this guy. My husband is very close friends with an employee of his, and I am increasingly jealous over this. I think it's a very natural way to feel. I am not a believer that male/female relationships are ever 100% platonic on both sides. When opposite sex friendships get close enough to share personal information that should be shared first, if not only, with the spouse, there is bound to be some jealousy issues...


I don't want to thread jack this but I have to ask you, what are you going to do about it? You should start a thread and give us your situation and maybe we can discuss it with you.


----------



## spazmonkey

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> I don't want to thread jack this but I have to ask you, what are you going to do about it? You should start a thread and give us your situation and maybe we can discuss it with you.


Thanks Middleman... maybe I will. I know, I want to be careful about not hi-jacking a thread my first day here and getting myself in hot water, but don't you worry, I'm sure you all will hear plenty of ranting out of me here in the future...lol:smthumbup:


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## Madman1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Enjoy the night away, and the beer bro, you deserve it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Madman1 said:


> Enjoy the night away, and the beer bro, you deserve it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where I am at...

Thank you for all of the advice thus far. I think that I need to move into the next phase.

I am comfortable that my wife now realizes that her emotional attachment hurts me and cannot be a part if our marriage. It seem like she has minimized it a bit, a.k.a. thinks that I overreacted a bit. She knows though. It is very clear and she is working on it. She knows that she cannot look him up any longer. She is fighting the urge. I am almost positive that she fought it off all day yesterday while I was away. How she is doing this is by completely putting it out of her mind. This is good. This is where the "time and space" come in that she is talking about.

Today...

At 8AM I sent her a text saying "good morning". I have been doing this at key times of the day when I know that she will soon be looking at Facebook. There is a pattern. In that way I may be helping her fight the urge without me saying anything about it. The problem is, I am very anxious an touchy right now. I am also very impatient by nature. We had a short conversation this morning after she saw my message. It was about dinner and the kids. Maybe 20 messages back and forth. Then I put a question out there to try to get a read on how she is doing without asking her anything specific. "Do you want to spend some quality time with me tonight?" The message did kind of sneak into the conversation because it was in the middle of rapid fire. She sent the last message saying "I am going to read with the kids. I love you." She quickly logs off. No answer to my question. My anxiety causes me to assume the worst. Man, am I touchy right right now. Any answer that was somewhat positive would have eased my mind and showed that she is working to get back to a loving relationship with me again.

This lead to me calling her and telling her to log back on. Her phone is messed up. She can hear me, I can't hear her. That is being remedied as we speak. iPhone 5 is in the mail. Anyway... I ask her if she avoided my question. She say that she didn't see it. Very believable. Ok. Tells me that I need to stop being so touchy. I then had to explain myself. 

Me: Not trying to push you. Just trying to get a read. When you ignore a question like that I get a very negative read.

Her: Youre pushing that time thing. Time and space are not your strong suits.

Her: I dont want to do this with you every single day.

Me: I told you... Not pushing. Just trying to track progress

Her: Stop trying. Just let it go and give it the space and time I keep begging you for.

I tend to agree with her. She is working on it and every time I bring it up it pushes her back to him. The funny thing is, I did not even mean to bring it up. It just worked out that way. I know that she is not going to show me affection in a week, but I have a hard time waiting (impatient by nature). It is hard to have a wife that loves you, but wants nothing to do with you. We have been smiling in public, but we know the real story. I am trying to give her time though. I need to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Until she goes through withdrawal you will not be able to work on the marriage as much as you would like. It is a grieving process as well. It took me six to eight weeks to get all the way through. All sorts of levels of feelings. It really shook me. I had compromised my integrity. I had complete tunnel vision. 

Indeed spend quality time together. You need to start bonding again. You do not need at this time to delve deep into this. I am not suggesting rug sweeping. I am suggesting that you continue to bond and that at some point you guys do His Needs Her Needs together. Also do the boundary setting. This is how my wife and I got back on track and made our marriage better than ever. It does take some amount of time. But it does take work and not just putting it behind you. Now is not the time for that though. This said, it really is on her to do the heavy lifting.

FWIW my wife forgave me long long ago. It took me many years to totally forgive myself. Understanding EAs really helps.


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## Saki

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Be the leader. 

Instead of asking her if she wants to spend quality time, figure out what your activity is going to be and tell her you are doing it and invite her along.

Your anxeity is normal and won't go away for months/years. That is the consequence of your wife's actions.

You need to learn to be comfortable with your anxeity, not to let it drive you. Co exist with it. Figure out ways to manage it that DO NOT RELY ON YOUR WIFE FOR SOOTHING IT.

You need to be able to handle your own problems, not look to your wife to solve your problems for you.


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## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

IMO, she doesn't get time and space. Why is she calling the shots? She should be a helll of a lot more remorseful than that, ie, giving YOU everything YOU need.


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Entropy3000 said:


> Until she goes through withdrawal you will not be able to work on the marriage as much as you would like. It is a grieving process as well. It took me six to eight weeks to get all the way through. All sorts of levels of feelings. It really shook me. I had compromised my integrity. I had complete tunnel vision.
> 
> Indeed spend quality time together. You need to start bonding again. You do not need at this time to delve deep into this. I am not suggesting rug sweeping. I am suggesting that you continue to bond and that at some point you guys do His Needs Her Needs together. Also do the boundary setting. This is how my wife and I got back on track and made our marriage better than ever. It does take some amount of time. But it does take work and not just putting it behind you. Now is not the time for that though. This said, it really is on her to do the heavy lifting.
> 
> FWIW my wife forgave me long long ago. It took me many years to totally forgive myself. Understanding EAs really helps.



Sounds like I need to get an F'ing grip. Get some good sleep, lay off the caffeine, eat the biggest steak I can find and get on with "life as usual". I need to monitor, not prod, from a distance. It seems like everyone is doing their part except me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> Transparency s what save my marriage. However, I thought I was fine. It took my wife to tell me I was not fine. I did not believe her, but chose to trust her. She was right.
> 
> I think it comes down to defining what too close is for a given couple. I suggest that many folks these days allow themselves to bond too closely with OSFs and it hurts their marriage even when there is not a sexual affair.


I agree, but I truly believe that one has to go through one to fully understand what an EA is (or close to it) and how inappropriate OSFs are to a marriage.


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## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Confused, I agree with Entropy. You both need to spend 15 to 20 hours a week of we time, in order to bond together. This will allow her to replace the attention rush she was getting from him with yours. 

I sent you a link to the book Entropy suggested in my first post to you. This book will explain emotional needs and how they played into your situation. It will show you how you each can fulfill them for each other and protect yourselves from this type of A happening. Yes, more reading for you both. 

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley: 9780800719388: Amazon.com: Books


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## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

One more thing. Consider asking the Mod's to change your screen name. I don't think you're confused anymore.


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## ConfusedAboutLife

anchorwatch said:


> One more thing. Consider asking the Mod's to change your screen name. I don't think you're confused anymore.


I need to save this name for my next thread. We have only scratched the surface. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

I hope not.


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## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I need to save this name for my next thread. We have only scratched the surface.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still think you are doing fine. A little more space for her and continue to monitor.


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## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Do you have another thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConfusedAboutLife

No... One thing at a time is plenty for me. Now that I know about this forum though, I will be back if I have any future issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I was joking.


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## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> IMO, she doesn't get time and space. Why is she calling the shots? She should be a helll of a lot more remorseful than that, ie, giving YOU everything YOU need.


My guess is she wants to know whether it's about control and insecurities/impatience on her husband's part, or about love. Pushing her after she's already agreed to everything will come across as selfish (whether fairly or not). Giving her space (as she asked) is meaningful. Doesn't mean they can't still do things for one another. Little things she will notice on her own like bringing home her favorite foods to have around, spending quality time with kids so she has a minute to herself, anything she expresses she wants that he can do from a distance without drawing attention to it. She'll probably appreciate it very much and do the same in return. 

I disagree there's no place for privacy in relationships. From my experience it's a fundamental need, though definitely for some people more than others.


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## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Meant to add.. I think he has at least as much power if not more so over this. If he stays calm it will support her in doing the same thing.


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Sounds like I need to get an F'ing grip. Get some good sleep, lay off the caffeine, eat the biggest steak I can find and get on with "life as usual". I need to monitor, not prod, from a distance. It seems like everyone is doing their part except me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Indeed, cut yourself some major slack. You are doing great. 

I am not saying life as usual. Just start bonding but realize her head is messed up. She is NOT thinking clearly. She needs to do the heavy lifting.


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> My guess is she wants to know whether it's about control and insecurities/impatience on her husband's part, or about love. Pushing her after she's already agreed to everything will come across as selfish (whether fairly or not). Giving her space (as she asked) is meaningful. Doesn't mean they can't still do things for one another. Little things she will notice on her own like bringing home her favorite foods to have around, spending quality time with kids so she has a minute to herself, anything she expresses she wants that he can do from a distance without drawing attention to it. She'll probably appreciate it very much and do the same in return.
> 
> I disagree there's no place for privacy in relationships. From my experience it's a fundamental need, though definitely for some people more than others.


You have a right to your opinion but a couple does not have secrets from one another. Privacy smacks of single behavior.

Transparency saved my marriage. YMMV.

Also lets be clear here. She is the one breaking her marriage vows. She is the one being unfaithful. If he did not love her he would cut her loose. The heavy lifting is on her. He does not have to prove anything. She owns her affair. He has been as loving about this as anyone could be. This is NOT on him.

I speak as the person who was in an EA.

Control is just a buzz word. He should be jealous. He should feel insecure. he should get control of this. The bottomline is that she broke trust. She was not able to control herself in this situation. 

The worst thing per this thread was that he worked long hours so she could stay at home with the kids. She got bored and started an inappropriate relationship with another man.

True marriage partners have nothing to hide from one another. She does not IMHO have the right to privacy, especially now since she broke trust.


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## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



The Middleman said:


> Either you totally misunderstood me or I didn't express myself clearly at all. Let's take the OP out of this for a moment and use a generic couple. If a wife in the fog of an emotional affair considers her husband's trying to end the affair controlling behavior and objects to this "controlling" so much that the wife leaves the husband for it, then I would have to ask myself was the marriage a healthy one in the first place? Is that any clearer?


Thanks for the explanation, I read a tone of nonchalance in your original post that clearly wasn't there, my mistake!


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Entropy3000 said:


> The worst thing per this thread was that he worked long hours so she could stay at home with the kids. She got bored and started an inappropriate relationship with another man.
> 
> True marriage partners have nothing to hide from one another. She does not IMHO have the right to privacy, especially now since she broke trust.


In all fairness, I have to disclose that her loneliness was not only my long hours at work. I am a very social person. The more people the better. I have many friends. I always say "I can be friends with anyone". I never miss a work function and describe it as "networking". All traits of the "nice guy" that I have read about in the past couple days. Around the time that my first child was 1, we had a disagreement about something. I felt that our bed should be a place for us. For intimacy... emotional, intellectual, and physical. Our place. To watch tv and fall asleep every night together. After the first few months of my child's life, we worked on this. It didn't work. She said that she was miserable. She thought that it would lead to abandonment issues. She said that she researched this. I just learned about abandonment issues yesterday through my reading. This and many other issues, she got the final say on. My children 3 and 5, sleep with her to this day. I sleep on the couch 90% of the time. Basically anything that had to do with children, she would read a book on, a biased book that justified all of her points, and was able to debate circles around me until I just gave up. This made me feel like I was useless. Like I was not appreciated. I have used the word "walking paycheck" before. I definitely felt like I was second banana to our children. Worse than that... A far distant second. I don't know why I am using the past tense here. This feeling pushed me away. I soon found comfort and friends in a place where people appreciated me. I call it my "home bar". Like a baseball team has their "home field". There were windows in the front and there was a certain characteristic of the xenon headlights on my car. The bartenders knew it and there would always be a beer waiting for me before I walked Ito the door. It made me feel special. Appreciated. There were people at my "home bar" that cared about me. I wasn't getting that at home. So I bowled once a week and then I probably visited this place twice a week. It was within walking distance so it was perfect. Everyone knew that I was married. I never got involved in or even thought of looking for an emotional or physical attachment. This has gone on, sometimes to a lesser extent, for the past 4 years. It was easier than dealing with the problems. I never left until my kids were asleep. I never missed a day of work from being out to late.

Since I vowed to change my ways, this has stopped completely.

I just hijacked my own thread. I needed to say that though, so that you know that I am no saint in this issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> Control is just a buzz word. He should be jealous. He should feel insecure. he should get control of this. The bottomline is that she broke trust. She was not able to control herself in this situation.


I think he should get (and it appears that he has gotten) control of the situation. Let's make a distinction though: this does not mean control of her. She is, and will be, her own person and she owns her own choices and mistakes. 

Once this has passed, I hope they'll be able to get back into a partnership between competent adults.


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## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> In all fairness, I have to disclose that her loneliness was not only my long hours at work. I am a very social person. The more people the better. I have many friends. I always say "I can be friends with anyone". I never miss a work function and describe it as "networking". All traits of the "nice guy" that I have read about in the past couple days. Around the time that my first child was 1, we had a disagreement about something. I felt that our bed should be a place for us. For intimacy... emotional, intellectual, and physical. Our place. To watch tv and fall asleep every night together. After the first few months of my child's life, we worked on this. It didn't work. She said that she was miserable. She thought that it would lead to abandonment issues. She said that she researched this. I just learned about abandonment issues yesterday through my reading. This and many other issues, she got the final say on. My children 3 and 5, sleep with her to this day. I sleep on the couch 90% of the time. Basically anything that had to do with children, she would read a book on, a biased book that justified all of her points, and was able to debate circles around me until I just gave up. This made me feel like I was useless. Like I was not appreciated. I have used the word "walking paycheck" before. I definitely felt like I was second banana to our children. Worse than that... A far distant second. I don't know why I am using the past tense here. This feeling pushed me away. I soon found comfort and friends in a place where people appreciated me. I call it my "home bar". Like a baseball team has their "home field". There were windows in the front and there was a certain characteristic of the xenon headlights on my car. The bartenders knew it and there would always be a beer waiting for me before I walked Ito the door. It made me feel special. Appreciated. There were people at my "home bar" that cared about me. I wasn't getting that at home. So I bowled once a week and then I probably visited this place twice a week. It was within walking distance so it was perfect. Everyone knew that I was married. I never got involved in or even thought of looking for an emotional or physical attachment. This has gone on, sometimes to a lesser extent, for the past 4 years. It was easier than dealing with the problems. I never left until my kids were asleep. I never missed a day of work from being out to late.
> 
> I just hijacked my own thread. I needed to say that though, so that you know that I am no saint in this issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it would be worth starting a new thread on this, once you're over the hump on the EA issue. It seems like there's some room for improvement here.


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Athena1 said:


> I think it would be worth starting a new thread on this, once you're over the hump on the EA issue. It seems like there's some room for improvement here.


Understatement of the year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> I disagree there's no place for privacy in relationships. From my experience it's a fundamental need, though definitely for some people more than others.


I agree. 

I think the distinction here is between privacy and hiding things. Willfully hiding things from one's spouse is a pretty big red flag that one shouldn't be doing whatever that thing is in the first place (intentional good surprises aside).

I appreciate privacy from my husband and respect his privacy, I think I'd honestly be bored if I was privy to every single aspect of his life. 

Things that are material to the relationship should be shared. The ability to tell what is or is not material is something that different people have different abilities in. 

The OP's wife obviously has been struggling with this, but she also hasn't been blatantly dishonest either. I think there's real and possible room for voluntary improvement here, once the dust settles.


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## anchorwatch

Now you're puting the pieces together. That's why she looked for someone else to fill her emotional needs. You got yours filled outside the home too. More then ever you both need to read HNHN! Get it, read it. Put your marriage back together.


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## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I get where shes coming from with decisions about the kids but quite honestly for every book that says cosleeping is best there's another that says it isn't. And that's true for every child rearing issue. 
Does she have a book about what happens to kids whose parents don't work on their marriage and end up divorcing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConfusedAboutLife

diwali123 said:


> I get where shes coming from with decisions about the kids but quite honestly for every book that says cosleeping is best there's another that says it isn't. And that's true for every child rearing issue.
> Does she have a book about what happens to kids whose parents don't work on their marriage and end up divorcing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EXACTLY!!!! I have said this in so many words many times in the past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

NMMNG and MMSLP will help you keep your own in arguments. You NEED to learn this. Women lose respect for men who don't stand up for what they want. And when they lose respect, they often cheat on you. And believe they deserve it, since you weren't being a 'real man.'


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> I agree.
> 
> I think the distinction here is between privacy and hiding things. Willfully hiding things from one's spouse is a pretty big red flag that one shouldn't be doing whatever that thing is in the first place (intentional good surprises aside).
> 
> I appreciate privacy from my husband and respect his privacy, I think I'd honestly be bored if I was privy to every single aspect of his life.
> 
> Things that are material to the relationship should be shared. The ability to tell what is or is not material is something that different people have different abilities in.
> 
> The OP's wife obviously has been struggling with this, but she also hasn't been blatantly dishonest either. I think there's real and possible room for voluntary improvement here, once the dust settles.


The problem is who chooses to keep what private. Realize that someone in an EA thinks it is ok. So they would have no problem keeping that private and feeling ok with it. rationalizing it. Transparency is not knowing every little detail. It is about concealing nothing. A big difference. If there is privacy then there is concealment. A person in an EA will indeed conceal things. It is a hard lesson. I was once more idealistic about things but you learn the hard way sometimes.

Affairs thrive on secrecy / privacy. Privacy is a form of isolation which is a big big step in the Instigation, Isolation and Escaltion dance.


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## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I just read the you sleep on the couch and not with your own wife.

That's part of problem that has let the friend intrude upon your relationship. You've given up you place in the kings bed, and subconciously your wife is reacting to that. She is no longer seeing you as her partner and mate, she sees you as a male who shares a house with her and her kids.

You must rectify this situation ASAP.


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Privacy versus Transparency :

First off it takes a level up of intimacy in a marriage to have transparency. It takes trust. It also takes the understanding that in life we often are too close to the proverbial trees to see the forest. We ALL get tunnel vision. Also I believe a woman has a good perspective on her husband if she is paying attention and vice versa. It takes a level up in both love and caring. 

If you have to have privacy then you really do not trust your partner. In practice transparency lives in an environment of openess and no secrets. One does not hide their cell phone. They have each others passwords. There is really no need to snoop. There is no appearance of secrecy. If someone starts acting a little weird one could check on their FB or email or texts if they wanted. Again in practice this rarely has to occur. Because the couple is operatng at a higher level of intimacy. They are more likely to openly share things.

So take the cheesy movie Top Gun. One of my favorites for a number of reasons. But a marriage with transparency is a partnership where the spouses are each others wingmen. Our wingman watches our back. We must trust them to do so. Because we have blind spots. We are a team. We survive or perish on how well we work as a team.

There are times when our spouse sees danger. Out of respect and love for them we need to honor their feelings. Yes, it is my wife and I against the world.

As I have said many times, marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by product. Instead of trusting someone who has made poor choices in boundaries how about that person trust their partner and listen to them. If the marriage is #1 then this is the right thing to do. Not always easy. I know first hand.


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## ConfusedAboutLife

turnera said:


> NMMNG and MMSLP will help you keep your own in arguments. You NEED to learn this. Women lose respect for men who don't stand up for what they want. And when they lose respect, they often cheat on you. And believe they deserve it, since you weren't being a 'real man.'


MMSLP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Entropy3000 said:


> The problem is who chooses to keep what private. Realize that someone in an EA thinks it is ok. So they would have no problem keeping that private and feeling ok with it. rationalizing it. Transparency is not knowing every little detail. It is about concealing nothing. A big difference. If there is privacy then there is concealment. A person in an EA will indeed conceal things. It is a hard lesson. I was once more idealistic about things but you learn the hard way sometimes.
> 
> Affairs thrive on secrecy / privacy. Privacy is a form of isolation which is a big big step in the Instigation, Isolation and Escaltion dance.


In my case, privacy is not an issue. She has been very open and truthful all along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Shaggy said:


> I just read the you sleep on the couch and not with your own wife.
> 
> That's part of problem that has let the friend intrude upon your relationship. You've given up you place in the kings bed, and subconciously your wife is reacting to that. She is no longer seeing you as her partner and mate, she sees you as a male who shares a house with her and her kids.
> 
> You must rectify this situation ASAP.


I know this and always have. It was my stand against her decision. It was never meant to last this long, but now it is just the way it is. She is happy and gets comfort from laying next to the kids. No comfort from laying next to me, which I yearn for. I am second banana again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I'm very committed to attachment parenting and my kids are 5 and almost 3. However, I also really value sleeping with my husband. So this is what we do;

I lie down with my little one until she's asleep. Then I read to and snuggle with my big girl until she's asleep. Then my husband and I chat and watch tv together before going to bed in our bed by ourselves. When my little one wakes up next, I go into her and hop into her bed until morning. Sometimes my big girl gets in with us too if she has a nightmare. 

It's the best of both worlds. It means I don't get to wake up with my husband right now, but the kids get up earlier than he likes to anyway.


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## The Cro-Magnon

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Entropy3000 said:


> Privacy versus Transparency :
> 
> First off it takes a level up of intimacy in a marriage to have transparency. It takes trust. It also takes the understanding that in life we often are too close to the proverbial trees to see the forest. We ALL get tunnel vision. Also I believe a woman has a good perspective on her husband if she is paying attention and vice versa. It takes a level up in both love and caring.
> 
> If you have to have privacy then you really do not trust your partner. In practice transparency lives in an environment of openess and no secrets. One does not hide their cell phone. They have each others passwords. There is really no need to snoop. There is no appearance of secrecy. If someone starts acting a little weird one could check on their FB or email or texts if they wanted. Again in practice this rarely has to occur. Because the couple is operatng at a higher level of intimacy. They are more likely to openly share things.
> 
> So take the cheesy movie Top Gun. One of my favorites for a number of reasons. But a marriage with transparency is a partnership where the spouses are each others wingmen. Our wingman watches our back. We must trust them to do so. Because we have blind spots. We are a team. We survive or perish on how well we work as a team.
> 
> There are times when our spouse sees danger. Out of respect and love for them we need to honor their feelings. Yes, it is my wife and I against the world.
> 
> As I have said many times, marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by product. Instead of trusting someone who has made poor choices in boundaries how about that person trust their partner and listen to them. If the marriage is #1 then this is the right thing to do. Not always easy. I know first hand.


awesome post.


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## warlock07

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

How often do you sleep on the same bed ? And how old are the kids ? Until now I've only read sleeping with the parents when they start getting older is never good. What books is she reading ?


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Lyris said:


> I'm very committed to attachment parenting and my kids are 5 and almost 3. However, I also really value sleeping with my husband. So this is what we do;
> 
> I lie down with my little one until she's asleep. Then I read to and snuggle with my big girl until she's asleep. Then my husband and I chat and watch tv together before going to bed in our bed by ourselves. When my little one wakes up next, I go into her and hop into her bed until morning. Sometimes my big girl gets in with us too if she has a nightmare.
> 
> It's the best of both worlds. It means I don't get to wake up with my husband right now, but the kids get up earlier than he likes to anyway.


Thanks for the input. I wish that I had that setup.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saki

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Man, kick dat b1tch out of 

*YOUR*

bed. 

Sleeping on the couch...come on man....:scratchhead:

This is the fundamental dynamic that has destroyed your marriage. You are so worried about upsetting your wife, who's laying in bed thinking about doing some dude in Germany, that you are sleeping on the couch. 

WTF.

This is why the 180 would be an effective move for you. Your life is about *YOU.*


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

Last night...

My wife came out and sat beside me last night after I asked her about spending some quality time. I was so relieved. She wanted to talk about some things. This developed into a 2 hour conversation. She said that she was doing a lot of thinking and she realizes why she is so angry with me. The reason is, is that I have never been jealous in the past about anything. Now, all of the sudden, this issue is such a huge deal. She had no warning and it ruined her “friendship”. A great rationalization, right? So the blame is back on me. She will not allow herself to take any responsibility for her actions. I explained to her that I have been jealous in the past about little things, but nothing even came close to this. She pointed out many instances where her idea that I was the most secure man in the world would have been proven. Instances like guys hitting on her, even in front of me, and I would do very little if anything. I admit that walked with my head held high... with confidence. I knew that my wife/girlfriend was coming home with me and there was nothing that these men could do about it, so let them have their fun if they must (to a certain extent). All of the instances that were mentioned were from long ago when we were dating. I am more mature now and we are rarely in those situations any longer. I also don’t know if subtle advances toward my wife would fly with me now. She said that the OM asked about me when they first reconnected and how I felt about them speaking. She said that I was perfectly secure. She talked me up. Now she feels like an idiot. So she really does see me as insecure. In fact, I was fine and secure about her having a male friend that she could talk to every once in a while, but when I learned that intimate details were being shared, that changed instantaneously. She got upset and said that now she will never be able to have a male friend ever again. I said that that is not true. That solution will fix nothing. You will go on with your life with your female friends and smile, and resent me the whole time. That is a temporary solution. I told her that we need to fix the issues; I am not pushing them aside any longer. I told her that we needed to have a talk about boundaries. This way we are able to respect one another’s wishes and still have what we want. She never thought that it would get to the point where we had to set boundaries for each other. I told her that healthy couples set boundaries for each other. It is not a negative thing. She wanted to have that conversation right then. She said that she did not want to set boundaries for me. I said that that is not true. What if I kissed another woman? Is that a boundary for you? OK. She gets it now. We discussed some other boundaries.

It came back to her original point. I again explained to her that this was a much larger issue than anything in the past. She has a strong emotional attachment that starts out “friendly” and escalates into something much more without her even knowing it. I tried to recite what I could recall from the long list on the first page of this thread. It clicked and she said that “I am not having an emotional affair.” This is the first time that this term has been used. “I told you we were close friends.” I asked have you contacted him since we last talked about it? Have you looked him up? The answer was “No”. She was very defensive. I believe her. It has gone from civil to a bit more heated at this point. She asked again if it was possible that they could ever be friends again. I said “No. Not with the information that has been shared. A boundary was crossed. I know that you didn’t know that it existed. I am sorry for that, but it is past the point of no return. You f**ked up. I know that you didn’t realize it, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to take responsibility for it.” I the next 15 minutes as we ended our conversation I mentioned to her five more times that she needs to take some responsibility for this and stop finding ways to rationalize and stop blaming me. She went to bed.

I thought for 5 minutes. I stood in front of her in the bedroom blocking the TV.

Me: Do you want to see a counsellor about this?

Her: No

Me: Are you afraid of what you are going to hear?

Her: I already know what they are going to say. I know that they wouldn’t help.

Me: You don’t believe in what you do? (she is a therapist)

Her: I believe in myself.

Me: Don’t you think that it would be nice to have an arbitrary third party sort through all of this? We can find someone who is good. If not, we will find another one.

Her: It is expensive.

Me: I told you that I am willing to do whatever it takes to solve our problems. I am the last person that would suggest this path because you know how stubborn and hard headed I am. I will do this for us.

Her: I just need time.

Me: Alright. I cannot promise that I will not bring this up again in the future if we are not getting to the bottom of any of our issues.



This morning I sent her a message:

Please take the time today to think about and write out your boundaries for me today. I will do the same. It doesn’t have to be a final draft. If we don’t want any help with our issues, we have to help ourselves. Do you agree? This will help to ensure both of us that nothing like this will ever happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

She's not used to you standing up for your self. That and the withdrawal has destabilized her methods of control. She's trying to rationalize a way you'll let her keep contact with OM. 

Stay the course, fair but resolved.


----------



## Cdelta02

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

She is intent on rugsweeping. You and she can type up as many documents you want. Unless she realizes, accepts and owns up to her fault in this, it is going to happen again.

Both of you really need the MC to happen.


----------



## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Her logic is wrong. If I could talk to her I would say this. "Your husband is not insecure. This is not the case of a random man hitting on you. You have reconnected with someone you admit to having a mutual attraction with in the past and a deep emotional connection. What concerns your husband isn't what another man did. It's what you did. It's spending ALL day every day messaging this man. It's admitting that talking to him turns you on. It's having sexual dreams about him and sharing that with the man.
You have crossed many boundaries. You have admitted that getting messages from him guves you a high and that you have trouble keeping yourself from not checkinh his facebook page. In the past it was other men who crossed boundaries and your husband was confident that you wouldn't betray him. But now it is your actions that have rightly caused him to doubt your loyalty." 
She sounds like an extremely stubborn person. 
If she won't go to MC start going by yourself. Chances are she will end up going too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saki

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



diwali123 said:


> Her logic is wrong. If I could talk to her I would say this. "Your husband is not insecure. This is not the case of a random man hitting on you. You have reconnected with someone you admit to having a mutual attraction with in the past and a deep emotional connection. What concerns your husband isn't what another man did. It's what you did. It's spending ALL day every day messaging this man. It's admitting that talking to him turns you on. It's having sexual dreams about him and sharing that with the man.
> You have crossed many boundaries. You have admitted that getting messages from him guves you a high and that you have trouble keeping yourself from not checkinh his facebook page. In the past it was other men who crossed boundaries and your husband was confident that you wouldn't betray him. But now it is your actions that have rightly caused him to doubt your loyalty."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bull honky.

Everyting you say is right, true, and I agree with, but it isn't what he should say to her.

What he should say to her is this:

"I will not accept this (this=your relationship with Mr Germany) in my marriage".

That's ALLLLLLLL that matters. Why who how when, all irrelavant. Express, but do not defend, your feelings.


----------



## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I said that's what I would say to her. Woman to woman. 
Because she might be reading this. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Now she has replaced controlling with insecure to describe your resistance to her crossing these boundaries. She's always in control, who are you to tell her she can't? She's grasping at straws looking for something to get her way over you. 

This was a big step in destabilizing her rationalization hamster. You didn't put her in a corner either. You showed her the way out. That's taking the leadership of the marriage. 

Keep at it, you did well.


----------



## CandieGirl

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I still think she resists because she doesn't think what she did was wrong. Sometimes, it takes awhile...


----------



## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Sounds as if she needs some more time to mull it over but is starting to listen to you on some points. Understandable she doesn't want to feel that she did everything wrong. As you said she's been honest about it. If you'd seen where it could end up going and made it known what would and wouldn't bother you much earlier, who knows but maybe it would have been prevented. So it could be valid to say that your response came a bit out of the blue. I'm not saying the conversations didn't become inappropriate but maybe she genuinely didn't know whether they would bother _you_, even though they would obviously upset most.

Who could argue that the relationship between the Mom and Dad isn't just as important as between parents and kids?? Sleeping arrangements you ideally would both be in agreement with.. You could all sleep in the same bed if there's room. Not like it isn't done that way in most other countries. Maybe try going to bed at the same time as them. That way you're all in it together instead of her and the kids in one group and you in another. What about going out together one night a week.. or watching the kids on a regular basis so she can go out? That way she gets time to remember being an individual and it may inspire her to _want_ some more time separate from the kids.

On the subject of privacy.. to me it's more about respect and trust. Things like wallets, purses, mail, writing and signing your own letters or checks.. those would all be things that in my mind you want to ask permission for. Course if your husband or wife wanted to look through your wallet or something, you'd be smart to let them, but likewise they should respect your space and ask you first. Not about harboring secrets; it is just about keeping a bit of personal distance and mutual respect for individuality, which I think creates a stronger relationship. To me things like keyloggers and hidden cameras would be way out of line. It sounds more like a justification for relieving a person's own worry or insecurity to say "I'm doing it for their own good.."


----------



## MuleM

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I also agree there's no need to defend your point of view. Stronger to say it once and let her think about it.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

Saki said:


> Man, kick dat b1tch out of
> 
> *YOUR*
> 
> bed.
> 
> Sleeping on the couch...come on man....:scratchhead:
> 
> This is the fundamental dynamic that has destroyed your marriage. You are so worried about upsetting your wife, who's laying in bed thinking about doing some dude in Germany, that you are sleeping on the couch.
> 
> WTF.
> 
> This is why the 180 would be an effective move for you. Your life is about *YOU.*


Easy there saki. I think you have your threads crossed. No one is from Germany. I also love my wife and I would never talk to her like that. It should be "our" bed. It should have been dealt with years ago instead of waiting until now. I am definitely part of the problem in this issue. By your response, I have to assume that you didn't read much of the thread at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Have you read "not just friends"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

diwali123 said:


> Have you read "not just friends"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I started to. I skimmed through the rest. I am in the middle of no more mr nice guy.

SEE MY PREVIOUS POST
NOT Just Friends - My views so far
----------------------------------------

The first chapter was good and I could relate somewhat. After that, it seemed like it did not pertain to me. She crossed a boundary and it ended. She is still in pain and I need to know why. This book does not cover that. It doesn't mention the word "control". It doesn't talk about dealing with these situations in the early stages. If there are later steps to take to fix/deal with our marriage, that is in there, but I don't think that I am there yet.

I may be able to draw parallels from this book, but the examples used are far from what I am dealing with. They are all stage 5 examples, while I am at stage 1.

What I know...

She needs to realize that she is emotionally attached to someone else and it is extremely toxic to our marriage. I understand that much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saki

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Easy there saki. I think you have your threads crossed. No one is from Germany. I also love my wife and I would never talk to her like that. It should be "our" bed. It should have been dealt with years ago instead of waiting until now. I am definitely part of the problem in this issue. By your response, I have to assume that you didn't read much of the thread at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep yep got you mixed up with this thread (link below). Not sure why you would assume I didn't read very much of this thread by making a mistake about whether this guy is 1000 miles away or living in Germany, a detail that is completely inconsequential. Seems pretty short sighted.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61106-wifes-ea-she-really-denial-just-lying.html

You might oughta read that thread, could be educational.

Also, I never told you to speak disrespectfully about your wife. I pointed out how weak it is that you are sleeping on the couch, avoiding conflict, and suggested you rectify that situation.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I must ask, what type of therapist is your wife? She may not deal with marital issues as a specialty, but I'm sure she deals with a lot of relationship issues in general. No doubt boundaries are a significant part of her therapy sessions, wouldn't you think? Boundary issues are not exclusive to marriages only - these come up in all types of personal relationships, i.e. dealing with overbearing parents, trouble saying 'No' to friends, etc. etc. Something does not compute here.

Ever hear of the phrase "Physician, heal thyself"? Well, this evidently applies to your wife. Dr's in specialties still have to see other experts about issues. Despite the fact that your wife is a therapist, she's in the situation and can't see things clearly. Hence, it would be wise to see a therapist to help her out. It's not rocket science...


----------



## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Another good thread in private section is "husband mentoring young girl". Sort of similar situation, early stages of online EA. 
Her h had similar reactions. 

Sorry I forgot that you mentioned reading that. She needs that boom while you read NMMNG and MMSL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Oh and she's mad because you took her drug away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

Saki said:


> Yep yep got you mixed up with this thread (link below). Not sure why you would assume I didn't read very much of this thread by making a mistake about whether this guy is 1000 miles away or living in Germany, a detail that is completely inconsequential. Seems pretty short sighted.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61106-wifes-ea-she-really-denial-just-lying.html
> 
> You might oughta read that thread, could be educational.
> 
> Also, I never told you to speak disrespectfully about your wife. I pointed out how weak it is that you are sleeping on the couch, avoiding conflict, and suggested you rectify that situation.


Rectifying the situation... It's in the works as we speak. I am reading No More Mr. Nice Guy right now. One problem at a time though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saki

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Also it's possible to run yourself physically and emotionally exhausted at this stage in time.

Your #1 priority right now should be making sure there is NC.

She needs time to get thru the withdrawl of losing her affair.

You need time to process the hurt you've endured. You than need time to prioritize your needs, find yourself, and indentify what you want out of marriage. NMMNG and others are appropriate reading to help you out.

It's easy to fall into the trap of the shotgun approach trying to fix everything at once. One thing, hopefully, you learn from NMMNG is that the world isn't perfect and you need to be comfortable co-existing with imperfection. You'll get some good practice learning to deal with living with an upset wife for a while...it's good for you in the long run.

Again, this is the reason the 180 is recommended at this stage. You emotionally detach from your spouse and work on building your emotional strength. Your growth spurs growth in the marriage, your strength makes for a stronger marriage.


----------



## Saki

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Rectifying the situation... It's in the works as we speak. I am reading No More Mr. Nice Guy right now. One problem at a time though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Probably the most important thing for you to do is become aware that this sleeping on the couch thing is part of an overall pattern of behavior that can best be described as ineffective.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I must ask, what type of therapist is your wife? She may not deal with marital issues as a specialty, but I'm sure she deals with a lot of relationship issues in general. No doubt boundaries are a significant part of her therapy sessions, wouldn't you think? Boundary issues are not exclusive to marriages only - these come up in all types of personal relationships, i.e. dealing with overbearing parents, trouble saying 'No' to friends, etc. etc. Something does not compute here.
> 
> Ever hear of the phrase "Physician, heal thyself"? Well, this evidently applies to your wife. Dr's in specialties still have to see other experts about issues. Despite the fact that your wife is a therapist, she's in the situation and can't see things clearly. Hence, it would be wise to see a therapist to help her out. It's not rocket science...


I agree... Not rocket science. She is a Bachelor of Psychology, Master of Social Work. She deals with some family/personal issues. A lot of drug issues, court appointed or otherwise. I think that there is a method to the science. She has tons of experience in her area. I'm sure she knows exactly what to do in most of those cases because she has the experience. Not much experience on this one. It's different when it's you. As others have said you are in a "fog". All reasoning goes out the window.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Boundary issues are not exclusive to marriages only - these come up in all types of personal relationships


I am doing well with my boundaries. I have 7 of them... All of which I thought were just "givens" in a marriage before this happened. I am trying to think outside of the box now though. I'm trying to predict the future. After all, if I had written these down on my wedding day, half of them wouldn't be on there. Does it need to be more broad then just issues with other men? I am thinking so. I thought about what makes me jealous and wrote them down. But, what about anger and fear? Shouldn't there be boundaries for those? Issues with our kids? I am having a hard time with these. I might be going overboard for now. I also don't want to scare her or confuse her with other issues right now by giving her a laundry list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## diwali123

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Have you checked her phone to see if she's texting OM? 
I agree about taking it one step at a time. 
I have a BA in psych too, that doesn't mean diddly squat. Social workers are more focused on solving of practical issues. This is most likely
Out of her field of knowledge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

I know how much you like reading. So here's another great book that covers boundaries, Cloud and Townsend's "Boundaries in a Marriage" 

Boundaries in Marriage: Henry Cloud, John Townsend: 9780310243144: Amazon.com: Books

Sorry I haven't found a free pdf version.


----------



## ConfusedAboutLife

anchorwatch said:


> I know how much you like reading. So here's another great book that covers boundaries, Cloud and Townsend's "Boundaries in a Marriage"
> 
> Boundaries in Marriage: Henry Cloud, John Townsend: 9780310243144: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Sorry I haven't found a free pdf version.


If that was sarcastic then you are right on. The last book that I read cover to cover was curious George goes bowling. I am doing this for my marriage.

Really... It was the Steve Jobs Biography. Good book, but I hate reading. I have to REALLY care about the subject.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Yes it was sarcastic. I too hated any thing that was longer than a 1000 words and had nothing to do with sports or history. This is one subject I found of interest. It save my marriage and rewarded us 10 fold. Would that entice you to care about the subject? 

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I have to REALLY care about the subject.


So...do you? Are you going to read all the books we've recommended?


----------



## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

btw, if you don't like reading, I recommend reading it out loud somewhere.


----------



## Shaggy

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Here's a cheat sheet:

1. You're insecure

- No I'm not. I see a situation arising that has never come up before and I'm addressing it. 

- I'm seeing you enter into a relationship with another man that is becoming more important to you than your marriage. You're crossing a boundary and I as you husband am pointing it out and asking you to fix this before something really bad happens.

2. He's not that important really!

- Then what's the issue here? Do you not respect my feelings and concerns? Because I do see a problem emerging, and I'm trying to deal with it. You telling me I'm controlling, paranoid, or insecure is dismissive of my feelings and concerns and frankly shocks and worries me because before this you would always take my feelings seriously and treat them with respect. The way you are reaction in fact validates my worries because you are dismissing my concerns while continue to engage this other guy. Your actions do not really represent your words. If he wasn't important, why are you continuing a relationship that I not ok with?

3. You're being controlling

I'm not. Controlling would be picking out your clothes, your food, your hair style. I'm you loving husband and I'm questioning the role of another man in my relationship with my wife and partner. You wouldn't accept my having a girl friend, and I won't accept another man having the emotional ear of my wife.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> I am doing well with my boundaries. I have 7 of them... All of which I thought were just "givens" in a marriage before this happened. I am trying to think outside of the box now though. I'm trying to predict the future. After all, if I had written these down on my wedding day, half of them wouldn't be on there. Does it need to be more broad then just issues with other men? I am thinking so. I thought about what makes me jealous and wrote them down. But, what about anger and fear? Shouldn't there be boundaries for those? Issues with our kids? I am having a hard time with these. I might be going overboard for now. I also don't want to scare her or confuse her with other issues right now by giving her a laundry list.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey Confused

I really like the tone of your posts here. You sound like you're being firm but still kind and loving. 

This boundaries thing is hard. One thing I might suggest is that whatever you decide now doesn't have to be (shouldn't be) the final draft. Our relationships and our situations are constantly changing, I think it's too much pressure to see all future situations now. 

I know these conversations suck, but you gotta keep having them in the future when things change or occur to you that you're not comfortable with x or y. 

And, nothing wrong with making the "obvious" explicit, just to make sure you're on the same page. 

Anyways, keep up the good work.


----------



## Athena1

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



MuleM said:


> Who could argue that the relationship between the Mom and Dad isn't just as important as between parents and kids??


IMO It's important for kids to see a healthy relationship between Mom and Dad, so they have a road map for their own relationships in the future. Improving the situation is good for both parents, and good for the kids.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



anchorwatch said:


> Now she has replaced controlling with insecure to describe your resistance to her crossing these boundaries. She's always in control, who are you to tell her she can't? She's grasping at straws looking for something to get her way over you.
> 
> This was a big step in destabilizing her rationalization hamster. You didn't put her in a corner either. You showed her the way out. That's taking the leadership of the marriage.
> 
> Keep at it, you did well.


Jealous -- Check. Well you should have been jealous.

Insecure -- Check. Your marriage was not secure. 

Controlling -- Check. Well someone had to get under control.

A secure man is secure in doing what he needs to do. He is not swayed by such rhetoric.

Basically she pointed out times where your boundaries were looser. You know their is being secure but if we are talking about dating someone that is a whole other level of commitment from a marriage. Not much of an investment really. To a great extent not caring is ambivalence. A gusband being ambivalent means he does not love his wife and does not value the relationship enough to be bothered. 

So again this is rugsweeping and rationalization. It is also an attempt at getting you to cake eat.

She has proved that she should not have these male friends. Deciding now that she will be able to continue to have male friends is back to that old nice guy behavior. She has not gone through withdrawal yet and you are already negotiating with her for boundaries. This infidelity has yet to be dealt with. So you still feel you need to let her have her male friends. You may want to think that through. EAs tend to go serial if rug swept.

I am not beating you up. You have done very well with most of this but indeed at a positive sign you wish to start compromising. This is unwise.


----------



## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



Athena1 said:


> IMO It's important for kids to see a healthy relationship between Mom and Dad, so they have a road map for their own relationships in the future. Improving the situation is good for both parents, and good for the kids.


Absolutely. Beyond the fundamental essentials in life the best thing parents can provide to their children is a loving example of a loving passionate couple.


----------



## warlock07

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Last night...
> 
> My wife came out and sat beside me last night after I asked her about spending some quality time. I was so relieved. She wanted to talk about some things. This developed into a 2 hour conversation. She said that she was doing a lot of thinking and she realizes why she is so angry with me. The reason is, is that I have never been jealous in the past about anything. Now, all of the sudden, this issue is such a huge deal. She had no warning and it ruined her “friendship”. A great rationalization, right? So the blame is back on me. She will not allow herself to take any responsibility for her actions. I explained to her that I have been jealous in the past about little things, but nothing even came close to this. She pointed out many instances where her idea that I was the most secure man in the world would have been proven. Instances like guys hitting on her, even in front of me, and I would do very little if anything. I admit that walked with my head held high... with confidence. I knew that my wife/girlfriend was coming home with me and there was nothing that these men could do about it, so let them have their fun if they must (to a certain extent). All of the instances that were mentioned were from long ago when we were dating. I am more mature now and we are rarely in those situations any longer. I also don’t know if subtle advances toward my wife would fly with me now. She said that the OM asked about me when they first reconnected and how I felt about them speaking. She said that I was perfectly secure. She talked me up. Now she feels like an idiot. So she really does see me as insecure. In fact, I was fine and secure about her having a male friend that she could talk to every once in a while, but when I learned that intimate details were being shared, that changed instantaneously. She got upset and said that now she will never be able to have a male friend ever again. I said that that is not true. That solution will fix nothing. You will go on with your life with your female friends and smile, and resent me the whole time. That is a temporary solution. I told her that we need to fix the issues; I am not pushing them aside any longer. I told her that we needed to have a talk about boundaries. This way we are able to respect one another’s wishes and still have what we want. She never thought that it would get to the point where we had to set boundaries for each other. I told her that healthy couples set boundaries for each other. It is not a negative thing. She wanted to have that conversation right then. She said that she did not want to set boundaries for me. I said that that is not true. What if I kissed another woman? Is that a boundary for you? OK. She gets it now. We discussed some other boundaries.
> 
> It came back to her original point. I again explained to her that this was a much larger issue than anything in the past. She has a strong emotional attachment that starts out “friendly” and escalates into something much more without her even knowing it. I tried to recite what I could recall from the long list on the first page of this thread. It clicked and she said that “I am not having an emotional affair.” This is the first time that this term has been used. “I told you we were close friends.” I asked have you contacted him since we last talked about it? Have you looked him up? The answer was “No”. She was very defensive. I believe her. It has gone from civil to a bit more heated at this point. She asked again if it was possible that they could ever be friends again. I said “No. Not with the information that has been shared. A boundary was crossed. I know that you didn’t know that it existed. I am sorry for that, but it is past the point of no return. You f**ked up. I know that you didn’t realize it, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to take responsibility for it.” I the next 15 minutes as we ended our conversation I mentioned to her five more times that she needs to take some responsibility for this and stop finding ways to rationalize and stop blaming me. She went to bed.
> 
> I thought for 5 minutes. I stood in front of her in the bedroom blocking the TV.
> 
> Me: Do you want to see a counsellor about this?
> 
> Her: No
> 
> Me: Are you afraid of what you are going to hear?
> 
> Her: I already know what they are going to say. I know that they wouldn’t help.
> 
> Me: You don’t believe in what you do? (she is a therapist)
> 
> Her: I believe in myself.
> 
> Me: Don’t you think that it would be nice to have an arbitrary third party sort through all of this? We can find someone who is good. If not, we will find another one.
> 
> Her: It is expensive.
> 
> Me: I told you that I am willing to do whatever it takes to solve our problems. I am the last person that would suggest this path because you know how stubborn and hard headed I am. I will do this for us.
> 
> Her: I just need time.
> 
> Me: Alright. I cannot promise that I will not bring this up again in the future if we are not getting to the bottom of any of our issues.
> 
> 
> 
> This morning I sent her a message:
> 
> Please take the time today to think about and write out your boundaries for me today. I will do the same. It doesn’t have to be a final draft. If we don’t want any help with our issues, we have to help ourselves. Do you agree? This will help to ensure both of us that nothing like this will ever happen again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this is a very good discussion. She is just being defensive as an instinct. Give her some time to mull and digest what you really said.

Respect your wife. She is not an enemy


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## ConfusedAboutLife

Well...

Yesterday was a little crazy, but at least we got it out of the way early in the day. We took a huge step forward though. I asked her in the morning to give me boundaries. I will write down hers (see earlier post). She refused in an angry email. Very angry. I am again in her space an we can't go 1 day without drama. I explain that is a simple thing that we can do for each other. It is a continuation of what we talked about last night, not a new conversation. We can do this in order to move forewardand not talk about it so much. Her anger comes out and a full blown argument ensues. That can be a good thing or a bad thing over text messages. I rebutted her comments with things like "Also... Not a list of demands. It is mutual respect for each others feelings." She tells me that she will not give me boundaries. Says "If you want to f**k someone else, I will assume that you don't want to f**k me anymore." Ouch. She refuses to read my boundaries. She said now is not the time. Finally, I let the anger out when she accuses me of attacking her.

"That makes sense. You view me sharing a thought as attacking you when you are angry."

"I know what is making me angry right now. It seems that you don't care about hurting my feelings. This whole thing is about you and what I have done to hurt you. You have shown almost zero remorse. You don't even care to take my feelings into consideration and involve them in the solution to your problem. They don't matter. They haven't since the start. You will listen to them later. After you get over the pain of being ****ed over by me once more. Another problem swept under the rug."

"I am coming home now."

I didn't know if she would be there when I got there. Longest drive ever. Lots of traffic because of the holiday weekend. Torture. She was there. After a few minutes of tension, she made an effort to approach me. I told her that it was not supposed to down that way. She said that I have nothing to be sorry about. "You are right... You are right." I wish the cameras would have been rolling for that one. Big hug from her shortly followed.

We had a great evening. We are going to have a great Thanksgiving and weekend with no drama. If you don't hear from me, no news is good news. I will be reading if there are any responses.

I guess I am making progress with my nice guy syndrome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chumpless

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Damned that facebook!!!!!


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Good start. Just don't backtrack now. No negotiation on what you said you have to have. She's going to be testing you to see if you'll just drop it all.


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## Decorum

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Good job making your case.
It looks like by the time you got home she realized that she was jepordizing her marriage over her feelings for this guy while at the same time disregarding yours.

I hope it sticks and sinks in!

Take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



CandieGirl said:


> Oh, and by the way...this is almost 2 YEARS of this for us...it never really seems to go away.


It takes time CG. You are doing awesome. Hopefully HNHN will be an epiphany for him. He may not admit to that. Ego you know. But I bet as it sinks in he will get it.

It take a person with a deep amount of love to do what you are doing. Wondermous. :smthumbup:


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## Entropy3000

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

So you have taken the high road. You tried like a mature loving adult to discuss boundaries with her. She goes over the top. This just tells you how deep she is.

The next step IMO is to let her know, that since she will nit discuss boundaries you are going to inform her what yours are. Then tell her that any contact with the other man is unacceptable to you. Then walk away. She has been informed. Then my friend, if she insists on being a single woman and having another man then let her go. The act of letting go is your loving way of 1) letting her realize the consequences to her actions and 2) allows you to sart moving on.

It is by far you bets chance to save the marriage. BUT, you must be willing to follow though. Your children need a strong father. One who has his own self respect. To be sure your wife may be angry but she needs to start respcting you. She is way too into herself.


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## 45188

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Im a woman. you are not unreasonable at all. She was getting less close with you as she got closer to him. Thats how we work in all honesty. Smart man for nipping it in the bud.


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## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

So, Confusedaboutlife: How are things going?


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## ConfusedAboutLife

The Middleman said:


> So, Confusedaboutlife: How are things going?


Thanks for asking! Things are 1000% better. She gets it and she is recovering quickly. I think that she has a new respect for MY feelings and for what I am doing for our marriage. We had a great weekend. Not completely drama free, but close enough given all of the new ways that I am dealing with my problem. I am a bit edgy because I am pushing myself to ensure that my needs are met. The main example was last night. After a great long weekend, I found myself very frustrated... sexually. No sexual contact for too long of a span. My new mentality told me to put the issue on the the table right away. Unfortunately, I am trying to give her the space that she needs. This put me in a bad position. Normally, I would get the hell out of the house for a couple hours, go to the bar, have a couple beers, and forget about the whole thing. I am NOT dealing with my problems in this way any longer. So, I tried to suppress it for the day. It was going to come out one way or another. I started b!tching about everything from the money that she spent on certain items while we were shopping to the quality of the filet and crab cakes that I was served at dinner. The meal was bad. No apologies there, but still no reason to moan about it. I even ordered abnormally strong ****tails during our meal as an attempt to self medicate. She obviously knew that something was up. I explained to her what I wrote above. She understood. Things worked out pretty well . So... I think that I am at the point where I can eliminate some space between us. I still have not given her my boundaries. That might be our next conversation in a couple days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*



ConfusedAboutLife said:


> Thanks for asking! Things are 1000% better. She gets it and she is recovering quickly. I think that she has a new respect for MY feelings and for what I am doing for our marriage. We had a great weekend. Not completely drama free, but close enough given all of the new ways that I am dealing with my problem. I am a bit edgy because I am pushing myself to ensure that my needs are met. The main example was last night. After a great long weekend, I found myself very frustrated... sexually. No sexual contact for too long of a span. My new mentality told me to put the issue on the the table right away. Unfortunately, I am trying to give her the space that she needs. This put me in a bad position. Normally, I would get the hell out of the house for a couple hours, go to the bar, have a couple beers, and forget about the whole thing. I am NOT dealing with my problems in this way any longer. So, I tried to suppress it for the day. It was going to come out one way or another. I started b!tching about everything from the money that she spent on certain items while we were shopping to the quality of the filet and crab cakes that I was served at dinner. The meal was bad. No apologies there, but still no reason to moan about it. I even ordered abnormally strong ****tails during our meal as an attempt to self medicate. She obviously knew that something was up. I explained to her what I wrote above. She understood. Things worked out pretty well . So... I think that I am at the point where I can eliminate some space between us. I still have not given her my boundaries. That might be our next conversation in a couple days.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Communication, Communication, Communication! That's what it's all about. Open, honest and respectful. Very good. Please forgive me for sounding like a broken record (if you younger guys know what that is) but please don't forget to be vigilant and verify that she is truly going no contact with OM. This is of maximum importance if you want to make sure that this issue does not reoccur. Good Luck to you.


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## turnera

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Gee...if you'd have just told her that morning how you felt, you both could have enjoyed your dinner...


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## The Middleman

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

ConfusedAboutLife:

How's it going? Do you have any updates?


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## Shoto1984

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

Facebook....the great marriage killer. Nothing new about that but wow..over and over.


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## Soveryalone

*Re: My wife has a close male Facebook friend. Are my feelings of "jealousy" justified*

last I checked 1.1 billion people on Facebook, what %% of the 1.1 billion are 100%% happy in their marriage/relationship ? 
And what %% of the 1.1 billion are selfish manipulators who enjoy coming in between husbands and wives? point is with a number like 1.1 billion there are going to be a WHOLE lot of people who use FB as tool to "reconnect " with old friends and who knows maybe one of those friends is a selfish manipulator and maybe your spouse isn't 100%% happy, food for thought


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