# Our Marriage from My Perspective - Sorry so long! - No hope?



## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

My husband and I started talking about 8 years ago while I was still involved in a bad marriage. My marriage ended several months later, not because of my current husband. We dated for a couple years and it was great. I had my house. He had his house. He wanted to get married, but I was happy the way things were and was not sure I ever wanted to get married again. He has one grown child. I have five children. Three of my children are still at home. We have always been able to work out our issues regarding the children (although not always gracefully) and they’re not an issue in our marriage that I’m aware of. I am 38. He is 52.

Because we started talking while I was at the end of a bad marriage, I confided in him a lot of the issues I was having at the time. He always said the right things and made himself sound like he would be the perfect husband. He presented his idea of marriage as a partnership with shared responsibilities. Work was work not woman’s work or man’s work. We got along great, were very close, and the sex was awesome. He made me feel like he felt he was lucky to have me. 

In the summer of 2004, I lost my home in a fire. That night, as I was trying to figure out what to do, he brought me to his house. He was wonderful to me and my children through those struggles. He wanted us to stay, so we did. Things were good in the beginning. He made a point to go out of his way to show me attention and be kind. I did the same. Almost daily he would say, “We need to not forget this,” referring to the simple loving actions.

Within a year or so it became evident that the “woman’s” work was all mine and the “man’s” work was his although he really didn’t do the man’s work unless he felt like it. We both worked full time. Our sex life went down to nothing, but we were still good friends. I complained about the lack of sex, probably not in the best way, but the only way I knew how. It got me nowhere. He finally made a statement about how if sex was the most important thing to me then he wasn’t the one for me. I gave up but part of me hated him for that. He knew how I felt about it long before we got married or even dated, and I struggled imagining myself sexless forever... I started school to make me feel better about myself and hoped for a better career. 

At that time I really didn’t complain about the lack of help and the disproportionate household responsibilities because he was contributing more financially and the kids in the house were all mine. I did complain occasionally, however, and he contributed it to my being emotional because it was that time of the month or because I was quitting smoking or whatever else he could think of. I was always left feeling devalued and disrespected. I pretty much gave up. He did complain about dinner not being good enough at least to our friends and would become upset if I didn’t fix dinner for him. Yes I did have to cook dinner for the kids anyway, but it didn’t have to meet his standards if that makes sense. We were both working full time, and he even wanted me to fix him dinner on his days off after I worked all day. Again, I sucked it up because he was contributing more financially.

I feel I have to add that he has done some wonderful things for me and my children. He added bedrooms to his house for them. He made it possible for us to have horses and even became interested himself. He planned things for the future including us as a family not just me and him. While I don’t want to sound ungrateful, I sometimes wonder if that’s was not more for him than me. He seems to only do what others can see and pat him on the back for. I may be way off, but that thought has occurred to me lately. 

So, after three or so years I was living in a sexless relationship. I became more and more resentful of him coming home from work and doing nothing while I struggled with my job (which is very stressful), the kids (which I know are mine), the housework, school (which I know was my idea), EVERYTHING. We were still good friends at that point, and complaining got me nowhere. When he would ask what was wrong, I would just say I had a bad day at work or something that wouldn’t start an argument. I realize how stupid that was now because he felt I was taking my bad day out on him for no reason. Things went this way for another couple of years. We got married in 2007, and things continued status quo.

A couple of years ago he was injured, had to retire from his job of 20 years, and his income was cut in half. He has been home for over two years now with the exception of a couple of part time jobs. He can no longer afford to pay his credit cards. I never really knew how much he owed, stupid I know, but the amount shocked me when I found out. We can’t file bankruptcy because I still own the property where my house was. Due to the housing market I don’t think I could take a loan on that property for what he owes, and if I did I couldn’t make the payment. He signed up with a credit counseling company and I am making the payments toward that. He is looking for work but is being picky...

I’ve completely lost it. In the time he has been home, he has not picked up any of the household responsibilities even though I’m struggling to pay his bills. His attitude has always been, “You have five kids, you shouldn’t have to lift a finger.” I probably don’t expect enough from the kids, but they’re not here as maid service either. After many many arguments he has been cooking dinner the last couple weeks but very unhappily. He says he would do HIS laundry. He doesn’t even take out the trash. I do my own vehicle maintenance and repairs. In the last couple years I’m getting more and more angry and depressed about things. I’ve quit school which adds another student loan payment. I can’t concentrate at work. I’m emotionally drained and just want to run away. I’ve had to quit drinking too much around our friends because the last couple of times I’ve flirted way too much. This understandably angered him and embarrassed me. I know this is because I miss feeling sexy and desired.... I know that behavior is unacceptable and really will not drink to that point at parties anymore but that doesn’t help the underlying issues.

We are both very defensive and our communication stinks. I have tried to talk to him and get no where. I’m just an “emotional female.” I’ve been trying to be less defensive and really listen to what he has to say. I’ve realized that his defensiveness goes way beyond that. He really never feels he’s wrong. He really contributes things to my being overly emotional or it being that time of the month or whatever else he can think of. I’m tired of beating my head against the wall and being miserable. I don’t understand how anyone can claim to love and care for someone so much while watching them be so overwhelmed and unhappy.

So here we are. Married almost three years and barely co-habitating as roommates. It sucks. I sleep on the couch quite a bit. I don’t see any reason to suffer through the snoring, the mold smell from the leaky window he never fixed, and interrupted sleep for nothing. When I am in bed he doesn’t come until 3 or 4 in the morning. He blames the lack of sex on my spending too much time on the couch. Sorry, but it started WAY before that. Once in a while, if he’s drank too much, he’ll want to try to have sex probably just to please me. Even though that sucked for me having to get up at 5:30 I used to do it feeling it was better than nothing. I don’t even want that any more... 

I’m sorry this is so long. I’m an inch away from completely giving up and leaving. I don’t know what to do.


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## UFGatorGuy20 (Sep 30, 2010)

Two common themes that resound in your post:

1) Intimacy
2) Communication

Intimacy: I believe the stress you both share (primarily a result of work, bills, and children) is the main contributing factor to the lack of intimacy. It sounds like much more stress is on you at this point with the children being yours and his injury / disability retirement. However, YOU still want the sex. YOU need the sex. You're in your 30s... when women hit the peak of their sexuality. Your husband should recognize this and support this. Here's the flip side though... Men won't admit it, but sex can be just as mental for a male as a female. My advice to work intimacy back into the picture: As much as possible, get him in the best of moods before you even mention or hint at sex. It may take some sacrifices on your part, but do some things HE wants to do to get him in a very good mood. Sustain that mood for a few days (if possible), then work your magic. Help him enjoy sex too. Make him feel wanted as opposed to doing this just to satisfy your needs. As much as possible, keep the negative aspects of your relationship untouched. Don't discuss bills, children, work as much as possible. 

Communication: Communication is commonly the #1 problem in relationships. Many couples harness their stress, anger, and concerns. Others try to talk, but the talking commonly escalates into yelling, and no progress is made. A good way does exist to talk about things... without even talking. Write him a calm and collected letter. Lay everything out. Give him a chance to read everything you have to say so that he can DIGEST everything you have written. At the same time, you'll have no interruptions to get your thoughts down. Tell him that when he's ready, you would like to LISTEN to what he has to say... not that you want to talk about it. You want to LISTEN  Men always want to feel in control of a conversation, whether written or spoken, but in reality women control the conversation behind the scenes. Anyways, get your thoughts out, but let him respond in full. Take turns and slowly turn the writing into talking. Most importantly, note the positives in your writing. For example, you may raise concerns about him only doing HIS workload... cooking and laundry. Tell him you find it sexy when he cooks or cleans and that you want him to do more not just to help reduce your workload, but because it turns you on. Don't turn your letter into something that will bring him down further. Odds are, he realizes a lot of the things he does or doesn't do are not approved by you. 

I realize it will be hard to work on #1 and #2 simultaneously. Consider #2 first... then work the intimacy side of things. 

Hope this helps.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Everyone is entitled to have made one bad decision about marriage. More than one bad decision and it seems more of a case of not doing your due diligence.

Seems pretty clear you don't want to be married. I think your most insightful statement is the following:
"So here we are."

You signed up for this ride a second time ... apparently somewhat reluctantly. There have been a string of factors contributing to a growing pile of resentment - never a good thing.

If neither of you is willing to do the work to improve the circumstances, than your options are pretty straightforward.

I'm all for saving marriages, but I also believe there are some that aren't going to reap much benefit by being 'saved'.


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you both for responding. I doubted anyone would read all the way through that. 

UF - I have done all that you suggested and more trying to bring the intimacy back because I do need it. Nothing has helped. 

Our stresses revolve mostly around the household chores and his treating me like a maid. The children aren't an issue. Finances are probably only an issue because he's not contributing at all now financially or otherwise. We are making it on his retirement and my income but barely. In my opinion there are a lot of ways to contribute besides financially. He basically sleeps until 1 or 2, plays with his toys in the garage or on the computer, has cooked dinner the last couple weeks begrudgingly, and watches tv until 3 or 4 in the morning. I am up at 5:30 and don't stop until I go to bed. I don't complain about what he does or how he does it when he does things. I'm not picky at all. 

I like the writing a letter idea. I don't know if that will help because emails go ignored no matter how positive I try to be. I'll try that again. I can't go on forever doing nothing.

Deejo - I understand that you can't get the entire situation from reading a small portion of someone's life but I really do want to be married. It took an act of God and a lot of talking on his part to convince me of that tho. lol I resent the fact that I didn't get what I was promised, and I haven't always handled things properly. I miss being married to my best friend. I feel like I'm grieving my best friend's death. 

I'm not sure how you gathered that I'm not willing to do the work. A lot is left out summing up so many years in a few pages.

I titled the post "my perspective" because I know I only see things from my view. We don't communicate well. I don't know what he's thinking or feeling. He doesn't say much, but I know he's not happy either. The only reason he gives for being unhappy is my unhappiness. But even with that he won't do anything about it???? I would love to know what I'm doing wrong and how to get my best friend and lover back.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The only thing that's going to make a difference is if you tell him to pack up and leave.


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## UFGatorGuy20 (Sep 30, 2010)

As a side note (and I don't want to harbor bad news), do you suspect any infidelity from your husband? I know a couple (man 40, woman 48) that grew apart and exhibit similar tendencies you note in your last post. The male was reluctant to do anything... slept in, did what he wanted, watched tv until ungodly hours, went to bed when he wanted. He didn't feel the need to please his wife anymore because he was fostering an outside relationship the entire time. He didn't put any effort into his marriage because he felt he had something better waiting for him on the outside. 

Still here to listen...


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for being here. I really don’t have anyone to talk to. Everyone thinks our relationship is so perfect. Sigh....

I don’t think infidelity is an issue. I’ve kept my eyes open. We are both open with cell phones, computers, etc. When he’s gone I can find him within a mile of the house at one of our friend’s homes. I’m always invited to join him and do more than half the time. The only time he doesn’t call if he’s out late is when we’ve recently had a fight. Even then I know where he is. We live in a very small town. I think I’d probably hear if he was cheating. At least I hope I would.


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## UFGatorGuy20 (Sep 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> The only thing that's going to make a difference is if you tell him to pack up and leave.


Doesn't sound like AWife wants to go that route yet. She wants her best friend and lover BACK. However, that's one way to know for sure whether or not he wants to work on things... an ultimatum.


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Tunera, I don't think I'm ready to give up tho... I really do love and miss him. I have made it clear that I'm considering leaving if things don’t change. It’s his house. He would probably leave if I asked him to, but I won’t take his house. I've looked at houses for sale in the area and determined that I can qualify for a loan myself. I don’t have the down payment, but I could probably get it if I got desperate enough to ask my grandfather for a loan. It has been two or three weeks since I said that. He has been cooking dinner about 75% of the time now but is totally miserable and grumpy about it. Then when dinner’s done he goes outside or to the garage. 

I come in from work every day and try to give him a hug and kiss. I ask him how was his day. He usually responds with “all right” or something as simple. That’s it. He doesn’t ask about my day or anything else. We don’t even really converse as friends anymore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not telling you to give up. Just to make it clear you won't STAY in such a marriage; then he has to choose. If you've already told him and he did nothing but cook dinner, I'd say he doesn't believe you are serious. So the real question is...are you? It's either your boundary...or it isn't. If it isn't, then you pretty much have to accept what you've got.

That said, there are things you can do. Have you read the book His Needs Her Needs? It explains why we do what we do (or don't). It may help a lot.

And I would advise sitting down with him and explaining that you love that he's cooking, but it's almost like you're being punished, and that wasn't your intent - your intent was an actual relationship with him. If he doesn't know how to 'give' you that, tell him you want him to go to counseling with you to figure it out.


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

I ordered His Needs Her Needs. I should have it in a couple days. I read about that one in another post. I'm going to read it, but I hate having to do all the work in every single aspect of our lives. It's exhausting. Oh, he won't do counseling.

It is my boundary, but you're right. I've never enforced it. I could leave but I'm not sure I want to at least not yet. I guess he knows that and doesn't take me seriously. I can't live like this any more tho. I'm either going to have a nervous breakdown or cheat. I don't think I can live with either.... 

How childish is that tho? I do everything in my power to make the ones I love happy.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Don't mean to imply that you specifically aren't willing to do the work. What I do mean is that it is nearly impossible to make progress without both parties kicking in; in your case, your husband has some work to do, injury or not.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

AWife said:


> Oh, he won't do counseling.


Correction: He won't do counseling when he knows you're not going anywhere. Why should he? He's getting everything he wants and needs.

You aren't.


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

turnera said:


> He's getting everything he wants and needs.
> 
> You aren't.


That makes sense, but really how can someone take advantage of someone they're supposed to love and care for? I have a hard time understanding that and forgiving that. He says he loves me but does he really? I liked the thread about action vs. words. Actions speak soooo much louder.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IMO, it's an incremental thing. Each of us has our own experiences; the key to a great marriage, IMO, is to be AWARE of your spouse's experiences. HNHN is good at helping you see and do that. I think he doesn't WANT to hurt you, but he does want to protect himself.

You might start by just talking to him about his life, his experiences, his view of what his life has turned out like...if you can get to where he is being really honest with you, ask him how he sees you, what he's missing, what he's resentful about, what he would change. Once you know that, you can make changes on your half so that he feels like it's a good idea to do the same.


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

Protect himself from what? Sorry, but I don't understand. 

We've had many many many conversations about life, past experiences, etc. We seriously were best friends until the last year or so and shared everything. We discussed marriage and both of our expectations in depth prior to getting married. I was serious when I said I didn't want to get married again. I did not want to put my children through the drama if it didn't work out. I certainly wasn't going to marry someone I wasn't 100% sure wasn't willing to give me what I want and need. Even with all that, I still wouldn't have done it until my kids were grown if I hand't been forced out of my house by a fire. My eyes were open. I didn't see any red flags. We talked about EVERYTHING we each wanted and needed. Now I feel like he was blowing smoke up my a**.

Recently, I haven't been able to get him to be really honest about his feelings and what he feels he's missing. He can't say why things are different than what we originally discussed. He has a "it is what it is" attitude. I've never gotten even a hint that he's resentful about anything. I gave up two or three years prior to his injury and decided I was just going to live with it. We were great friends, as long as we didn't talk about housework and intimacy, he was fine and good with that. My feelings right now I think are kind of a shock to him. He's seems mad now. Maybe he just needs time to absorb everything? I don't know. But he's angry, shut down, and avoiding me. 

He told me not to long ago that he needed a list of what I wanted because he is a guy. I felt that was silly and reduced him to the level of being a child, but I didn't tell him that. I sent him an email last night. List item #1. Please take out the trash before it overflows on the floor. Love you, AWife No reply. The trash is in the kitchen overflowing. Did I say it wrong? I've been doing it every day and shouldn't have to. He knows if he wants to he can make it one of the kid's responsibility as long as he is the one that follows up and is actually responsible for it. 

I know I should be stronger. Maybe I should just leave. The three kids at home are all under 12. We have been together since they were all under 5. My youngest was a baby. He's not their biological father, but he's good to them. Their father is an addict/alcoholic and has only seen them once since X-mas. Their visit on that occasion was cut short because, according to them, "he took too many pills and was acting wierd." Sadly they've seen him hauled off in an ambulance due to an overdose and know way too much. The family member of his I trusted them with left the family gathering to keep them from being exposed to that. 

I guess I need to get serious and decide exactly what I'm willing to live with. Then I need to make him aware that I'm serious about wanting to leave if things don't change. I'm going to read the book you suggested, but I will be surprised if there's something in there I haven't tried. If nothing else, maybe I'll get some ideas of how to best present these things to him in "guy" language. 

Anyways, I could go on and on and on. Thanks for "listening"  And no I don't talk this much. lol I type very fast and write for a living. This is easy and comfortable to me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cool, I'm a writer, too!

Look at it this way. You wake up, you go about your business, and you have thoughts. Good thoughts, bad ones, judgments, fair or not...at the end of it all, you are taking care of yourself.

It's what we do. Most of us. My DD20 went to a counselor today, who told her that she is selfless. Not a good thing. She loses herself in everyone else. 

But most of us, we take care of ourselves first. We think of ourselves first. Men, in particular, DO need things spelled out, so they know what we woman want. They just do. Accept it.

Because you haven't spelled it out, he doesn't know what you want. And because he doesn't know what you want, he just knows you're unhappy, but he hasn't a clue what to do about it. So he retreats. From your unhappiness. He's protecting himself from feeling like a failure, while at the same time he's protecting himself just in general. You aren't specifically TELLING him what to do, and he's still getting his needs met, so he's...coasting.

That's why I say you have to make it clear you can't keep it up. But give him options, help him out, show him the marriage you CAN have. But be willing to do your half, ok? Show him what you will be like if you ARE getting your needs met; give him hope.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw:
_Please take out the trash before it overflows on the floor. _

That is an admonishment. You ARE talking to him like a child. 

Couldn't you just say 'Hon, will you be responsible for the trash? It would take a huge weight off my mind. Thanks!'


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

I can completely relate to your DD20. Maybe I need to learn to be more selfish. I have always lived and done everything for everyone but me. I also have a hard time understanding people who aren’t the same way. Maybe I need to be more open minded and try to understand others (my husband specifically).

I have verbally spelled out what I want and need many times. He knows. He knows the trash is his responsibility. He just doesn’t do it. After giving it some thought, I was being a butt in the email. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I was angry at the time, and that’s as nice as I could manage to be. Your description of his withdrawing from my unhappiness makes sense. We’ve had a lot of years where he’s been able to coast and everything would have seemed fine to him. I’m sure he had to have sensed my underlying unhappiness tho. Or are men really that perceptive? I am still confused, angry, and hurt by his unwillingness to take action and change his behavior. I’ve somewhat checked out emotionally and have been trying to decide if I’m just done. I’m sure he feels that, too. 

I’m going to read the book you suggested. Then I’m going to sit him down and either get through to him or end it. At least I’m feeling that strong at this moment. Maybe he should read the book, too. Thank you for reading all of this. It does feel good to just vent.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would suggest reading it OUT LOUD to him, so you both learn - and can discuss - at the same time. As you read, share YOUR experiences that match it, and ask HIM to share HIS.



AWife said:


> I can completely relate to your DD20. Maybe I need to learn to be more selfish. I have always lived and done everything for everyone but me. I also have a hard time understanding people who aren’t the same way. Maybe I need to be more open minded and try to understand others (my husband specifically).


I'm the same way (how DD20 learned it), and I DO have trouble, too. In fact, my therapists - both of them - gave me this assignment: Tell your husband that you are going out on Saturday afternoon. That's it. Just go. Leave the kids and house to him, OWN the right to take my own time off, and GO. The first therapist, in 3 years, I was never able to do it! This time around, as I'm older and less willing to stay married, it's been a little easier. But I still feel guilty. You really DO have to work on it.

The thing is, if you spent your whole marriage being EVERYTHING FOR EVERYBODY, they come to expect that from you. YOU protect everyone from themselves. YOU allow them to be selfish. YOU teach them to be so. YOU let your husband get away with not doing the trash because he knows you'll do it anyway.

Does it excuse him? No. But does it explain him and his human nature to take advantage of a selfless person? Absolutely.

It all starts with you.

My therapist says this: You HAVE to learn to stand on your own, not entwined with him. Once you do, and you are standing upright, HE can no longer lean on you. Then, he will either learn to stand upright, too, or he will fall on his face. Either way, he will LEARN that you will no longer be his Giver.



> I have verbally spelled out what I want and need many times. He knows. He knows the trash is his responsibility. He just doesn’t do it.


As I said, he has no reason to.



> I’m sure he had to have sensed my underlying unhappiness tho. Or are men really that perceptive? I am still confused, angry, and hurt by his unwillingness to take action and change his behavior. I’ve somewhat checked out emotionally and have been trying to decide if I’m just done. I’m sure he feels that, too.


If you do some reading about relationships, you'll see that this is VERY VERY common - women are wired to be caretakers; men are wired to NOT understand (Men Are From Mars is another great book on this). Where do you think the term Walkaway Wife came from? From the millions of women who Give, and think it's what they're supposed to do, and then realize when the kids are grown (usually the most common time) that they don't really have a sharing marriage - they Gave so much the husband stopped Giving.

You have a decent chance to fix this. But it all starts with you learning, and communicating.

Oh, if he reads, get him Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. from www.bettermen.org. It's an awesome, easy-to-read book to teach men how they have an obligation to the wife and family FIRST, and then can go and do whatever they want (that's agreed on).


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

YOU allow them to be selfish. YOU teach them to be so.

You're right. I'm the same way with my children. I more easily forgive them for taking advantage because they are children. Somehow my adult sons grew up to be responsible, giving people. Thank goodness for that but I hope they're not too giving. 

Thanks. I have a lot to think about. I needed an eye opening.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Print this out and paste it on your bathroom mirror:

You teach people how to treat you.


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