# The Best Person?



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Hey ladies, question for you: when you're dating, and in the process of weeding out prospective people, how do you know you're choosing the right person / the best person for you?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, question for you: when you're dating, and in the process of weeding out prospective people, how do you know you're choosing the right person / the best person for you?


I think I would know the person was right if I didn't have doubts about moving forward, I was excited about spending time with him, I felt safe around him, and he felt the same about me. 

What's going on @Ursula?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I knew I was dating someone with potential when their values/belief system were compatible with mine.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, question for you: when you're dating, and in the process of weeding out prospective people, how do you know you're choosing the right person / the best person for you?


You just keep checking each step of the way. First date leads to a second date. Then you have more of an idea of who he is. Then either buh bye, or date #3. Then add as you go. Bail when you know. :grin2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I cant describe it but I just knew within a week that he was the right man. We were on the same page and clicked.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

H and I met online....then met in real life almost a year later. That is when our relationship really started. We both just came out of 23 year marriages, and weren't looking for anyone....just chatting in a room full of people. 

I wasn't sure of anything, or anyone...including myself. So I did what Faithful Wife said....I just kept asking myself all along if everything was good, did I see any red flags. I kept checking in with myself. I really didn't trust myself, I didn't trust his kind words. I didn't know if I was just falling for bs because I just wanted NICE. 

14 years later..... I chose well. Eventually, I had to allow myself to trust his words, I felt that he was honest (and he is) and open (he is), which is what I never had and really wanted so of course it felt foreign anyway. I watched, I listened, and it worked..... all this time and we are crazy about each other and really happy with our life together. 

Sooooo......baby steps. Just trust yourself, check in with yourself, watch and listen. You can shut it down at any time. 

Good luck!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

For me, it’s all about the way someone makes me feel. Am I excited to see them? Do I want to tell them about my day? When I’m upset do I want to tell them and do they comfort me and make me feel good.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm neither female nor dating, so maybe this isn't on topic, but IMOH the first thing to look for is someone who makes you happy. By that I mean where you find yourself happen when you are with them, not thinking you *should* be happy but are not. 

Too many times I see people in relationships with partners who make them unhappy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Guy here to, but I would say look for someone with character, who you are attracted to and have chemistry. Got to have the basics, chemistry, attraction, similar sex drive (though this doesn't have to be exactly the same but close). Those are the basics, but what holds a long term relationship together is character from both parties.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, question for you: when you're dating, and in the process of weeding out prospective people, how do you know you're choosing the right person / the best person for you?




You typically can only know with hindsight if someone’s a good match.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Emotions are your own but have nothing to do with a person's character.
Trust is something you decide to do or not do but also has nothing to do with a person's character.

Women need to start learning their lessons and stop relying on superficial feelings when choosing a mate. Most men are very skilled at getting a woman to fall in love with him. Mr. Wrong is equally, if not more so, as charming, doing all the right things, and saying all the right words as Mr. Right. Surely you know an abusive man has a woman utterly in love with him. That's because he didn't call her names or give her a busted lip for the first while. Thieves and rapists likely have a wife at home or a girlfriend. That's because he doesn't divulge his secret activities. But the abuser, the thief, the rapist - anyone can make you excited to see them, make you think they are reliable, make it seem their values line up with yours, make it appear to be on the same page, make you feel safe, and so on.

You have to be sensible, and these days you have to be smart. And you have to be brave. To start with, you can't believe anything they say no matter how badly you want it to be true. You have to watch and pay attention to what he does. A lot of women believe the man, so they don't notice that nothing he does actually aligns with what he said. So what he does is what's most important. I don't mean buying you flowers and other gestures. I mean pay attention to how he treats other people, like the waitress in a restaurant, his mother, his ex girlfriends or ex wife. Does he make himself appear superior to others in his life and people he encounters? Does he brag about his accomplishments and possessions? 

Does he speak disparagingly about the ex and call her names? Did he tell you she was the cause of their breakup. That's usually what they do, but don't ever believe that one because more than likely he was the blame but puts it off on her. Check it out for yourself to find out how or why they broke up. It is uncomfortable and probably feels like something you would never do, but it would be wise to talk to his ex and get her story of the type of man he was and why they broke up. If he was emotionally unavailable with her, he will be emotionally unavailable with you too. If he gave her the silent treatment when he didn't get his way, he will give you the silent treatment. If he was unkind or abusive to her, he will be unkind or abusive to you. If he was irresponsible with her, he will be irresponsible with you too. If he bought a sports car that he couldn't afford instead of paying bills or necessary household expenditures, that is red flag. Again, you have to be smart and brave. You don't want a man who emotionally or physically bruises you just because he initially convinced you he was a nice guy. You also don't want a man who squanders his money because he will squander yours too. And if he asks to borrow money from you, dump him immediately. No matter his reasons or sad story, just dump him.

Make the investment to do a thorough background check on him. If he was ever in trouble, he will not divulge it. But sometimes, a guy will divulge it in order to get one step ahead in case you ever found out about it so he can influence you into thinking it wasn't his fault or wasn't as bad as it actually was. Police reports will tell you if he's ever been arrested or if he has ever been accused of assault of some kind. A credit check will show you the state of his finances and whether he is a financially responsible person. And again, don't listen to what he says. If he filed bankruptcy, he'll likely make it seem like the ex's fault. 

Also check to make sure he's not on the national sex offenders list in your state.

Pay particular attention to how he treats you. Yes, he will be charming and make you feel special and make you feel he loves spending time with you and all that jazz. But does he also criticize you in any way? Or make suggestions like you need to lose some weight? Does he make you feel self conscious about yourself? A guy can make you think he loves you and make you need his love, but he can also have an underhanded way of making you feel inadequate and not quite good enough.

If he has kids, is he a good father? Again, don't get caught up in emotions. A woman's primal need is to mate with a man who presents himself as family man material, so she will easily delight in the love he displays for his children (or other people's children). But love is not all about playing with his kids, yet seeing him play with his kids and the time he spends with them is what will make you fall in love with him. But that's all superficial. The big question is whether he is also willing to properly teach, train, and discipline his children. When they are with him, do they stay up til all hours, or does he set and enforce a proper bed time? Does he enforce manners and good habits? Does he discipline, or do they get away with murder because he just wants them to be happy when they are with him? Does he place them and their wants above you, or do you come first in the relationship? Are they respectful toward you, or does he allow them to be disrespectful toward you, while he's too afraid to make them behave because that will make them unhappy?

And finally, set standards and expectations for yourself to live up to and for the men you meet and date to live up to. For example, decide that you will not be with a married man. And then, don't just let a guy tell you he's not married, make sure he's not married. Even if he says he's separated and in the middle of a divorce, he's still a married man. Tell him to call you when the divorce is final and be prepared to show you the divorce papers. Another example is if you catch him in one lie, you can bet there are other lies he has told, and he will continue to be the liar that he is. Have the nerve to get rid of him. If you suspect anything or there's something that feels not quite right, your gut feelings are your instincts talking to you. Be brave and walk away knowing he's not the right man for you in spite of your feelings for him and in spite of how desperately you want his love and attention.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Hey ladies, sorry, work got busy yesterday, so I'm just getting around to replying.

You all bring up good points to think about, thank-you! The last time I was in the dating pool, back in 2012, I concentrated on finding someone with common interests. Now, I realize that those are the icing on the cake and am concentrating on finding someone with similar goals, values and beliefs. I've met 2 men recently, but in the past, I always seemed to pick the wrong man, and hence, am not very confident in my choosing abilities.

Man #1 and I are from different cultural backgrounds, and seem to share a lot of the same values/goals/beliefs, he's easy to be with, but does some odd things like bring a lot of food with him when he comes over just in case he gets hungry. He also travels with a portable speaker and plays his music wherever he goes (like, in my home). I enjoy music, but don't necessarily like everything he listens to, and find it a little disrespectful. He's also not well-versed in dogs, but seems to like mine, and be open to them. We both are family-oriented, both want kids, both are homeowners, both have stable jobs that we value, he's close with his family, and we've met each other's families already, and everyone seems to get along well so far. All in all, no red flags at this point, just a couple of odd things. He seems genuine, and we met on eHarmony. No kids, and he's never been married.

Man #2 and I have a lot in common, and enjoy doing many of the same things. We've only seen each other 3 times, so I haven't gotten the chance to ask him about his values/life goals/family/etc. He's also really easy to be with, and the conversation flows well. I'm comfortable around him; probably more so than with Man #1. He loves cooking and baking, he loves dogs, he's a big goofball like me, and he's a positive person with a career that he loves and values. Now for the good stuff: he spent Christmas with his ex-girfriend and her family in another province. This trip could be innocent, and planned and flights paid for before their breakup 2 months ago, but in my opinion, just eat the cost of it, and stay at home for the holidays. He was in contact with me during this time, and seemed to have a great time, but I'm leery about this twist. He's now travelling with his family, but has made it clear that he's really looking forward to seeing me when he gets back home. We met through a mutual friend; he has no kids and has never been married. Oh, and he lives with his folks, but is actively looking for a home to buy.

My exBF and I have been hanging around pretty much since he broke things off with me. I genuinely like him as a person, still care about him, and if I'm honest, I have a great deal of feelings for him yet. He's been going through an incredibly rough spot, and I've been there for him. Our feelings for each other seem real, and I know he still cares for me very much. He's made it clear though that while he's interested in being with me, he's not interested in "labelling" our relationship. So, it would be a casual thing, which scares the bejeezus out of me because he could bolt at anytime and leave me heartbroken again. Out of all of the above, this is the man I care about, and who I wish things could work out with. I know in the deep parts of my heart though that that's not likely to happen, although there's a chance it could as well.

My head is full, my heart is confused, and I really don't know which way to turn.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Ursula, just a question. Is there a reason why you are dating/seeing so many guys at the same time? If you met the guy from eHarmony, and were getting along to the point of meeting each others family, why did you start up with man #2? Doesn't that tell you that Man #1 isn't the guy for you?

I know folks have different takes on dating multiple people at the same time, but I think a) it leads to this type of confusion, and b) you never really devote the time required with the one person to see if you click or not.

Maybe STOP seeing your exBF completely (that is screwing with your head for sure), and focus on either #1 or #2 -- until you figure out they are/are not for you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, question for you: when you're dating, and in the process of weeding out prospective people, how do you know you're choosing the right person / the best person for you?


I don't weed people out. I operate under the assumption that no one but me is better than anyone but the best for me.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> Ursula, just a question. Is there a reason why you are dating/seeing so many guys at the same time? If you met the guy from eHarmony, and were getting along to the point of meeting each others family, why did you start up with man #2? Doesn't that tell you that Man #1 isn't the guy for you?
> 
> I know folks have different takes on dating multiple people at the same time, but I think a) it leads to this type of confusion, and b) you never really devote the time required with the one person to see if you click or not.
> 
> Maybe STOP seeing your exBF completely (that is screwing with your head for sure), and focus on either #1 or #2 -- until you figure out they are/are not for you.


In my defense, I met both men at about the same time, but have just hung out with Man #1 a lot more due to our time available. I had wanted to get to know Man #2 a little more to see if he was a better fit, but our schedules haven't aligned, and then he was gone for the holidays and is gone for another week now. When I really boil it down, I think it's the experience with dogs that is a factor, and I don't know if it should be. I do agree with you with the exBF though, I've known that needs to stop for awhile now, but it's hard when there's unfinished emotional business on both ends. Plus, with the things that he's going through at this time, I haven't wanted to cause him more pain. He's in a terrible spot right now, and my heart breaks for him.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"In my defense,"
Sorry -- was NOT trying to make you feel defensive of your dating -- I was just trying to understand the "why" of it (I don't date and haven't in 35 years since I met my wife!)

"I think it's the experience with dogs that is a factor, and I don't know if it should be"
Well if #1 isn't a dog person, then that tells you a ton about them!!! 


As for man #2, if his life is that busy, do you see a future with that type of lifestyle?

Also for the exBF -- you don't need to do anything to hurt him -- just try to distance yourself from him.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> "In my defense,"
> Sorry -- was NOT trying to make you feel defensive of your dating -- I was just trying to understand the "why" of it (I don't date and haven't in 35 years since I met my wife!)
> 
> "I think it's the experience with dogs that is a factor, and I don't know if it should be"
> ...


No, no, all's good, and I'm not defensive about it; just utterly confused!
It's not that Man #1 isn't a dog person; he likes them and seems to think mine are pretty cool, but he doesn't know much about them. For example, when I was chopping treats for their kongs, he asked if I were cutting up little chocolates. He also chews gun and has mints that are made with xylitol, and that makes me nervous. I've told him that xylitol is deadly for dogs, and he's mentioned it himself, so I know he listens. I also know that dog stuff can be learned; we all have to start somewhere. Dogs have been in my life for years though, and they're second nature to me, which is also why I own a pet care business! I should also say that we work opposite weekly schedules: I'm 7:30am to 3:30pm; he's 3:00pm - 11:00pm and works as a school custodian.

Man #2 is busy, but so am I, and to be honest, I appreciate someone who has things that they enjoy in their life. Do I want him to be so busy that we never see each other? No, but I also understand that life happens, and I don't need/want to be joined at the hip to anyone. We both work day shifts, him as a personal trainer for the military/law enforcement.

As for the exBF, he started texting me this morning about relationships, and he said that we now have a chance to spend more time together, have fun and enjoy life together. He's not willing to put a label on it though, but he enjoys every moment he's with me, and wants to sit back and see where things go. He said that if that's not good enough for me, that he understands and will respect that. Part of me wants to smack him, but the other part wants to run towards him and see where things go too.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, sorry, work got busy yesterday, so I'm just getting around to replying.
> 
> You all bring up good points to think about, thank-you! The last time I was in the dating pool, back in 2012, I concentrated on finding someone with common interests. Now, I realize that those are the icing on the cake and am concentrating on finding someone with similar goals, values and beliefs. I've met 2 men recently, but in the past, I always seemed to pick the wrong man, and hence, am not very confident in my choosing abilities.
> 
> ...


To be honest, being that you are still involved with the ex, you are not emotionally ready to be dating again. Get that relationship sorted out, is it on or off, give yourself a time to recover and reflect and then start dating again. 

As for the two men, I see red flags with both of them.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, sorry, work got busy yesterday, so I'm just getting around to replying.
> 
> You all bring up good points to think about, thank-you! The last time I was in the dating pool, back in 2012, I concentrated on finding someone with common interests. Now, I realize that those are the icing on the cake and am concentrating on finding someone with similar goals, values and beliefs. I've met 2 men recently, but in the past, I always seemed to pick the wrong man, and hence, am not very confident in my choosing abilities.
> 
> ...


Nice to have options.

For me it came down to feelings and natural progression, I half assed was talking to girls, going on dates but never felt anything really and was doing it out of boredom and a need for physical contact, with my GF I feel we just clicked and the relationship naturally evolved so we just both cut contact with other people, started seeing each other more and more until we were just together daily and then she asked me if we were dating LOL, we just enjoyed each others company and felt good together so if you do not feel this with any of the guys maybe none of them is the right person for you.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Prodigal said:


> I knew I was dating someone with potential when their values/belief system were compatible with mine.


We meet, she's hot, we dance, then the above 😘😘.

During the getting to know each other, other women in life get filtered out slowly.....(she meets one at my apt door once, doesn't freak out, a good sign). She beat me to the door.. 

We dance some more, swim, take some trips, I get to see her friends aren't nuts (a good sign!) more trips together, spend several nights together, more of the above (and she's hot!) and rinse, repeat some, if all still good, voila!

I married mine 😍😍😍


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sounds as though you have the same problem you had when you first posted about the no-label guy and then later about the other guy(s). You really want the no-label guy and he is content to be part of your life as long as you accept that he's uncommitted. It's true that some relationships like that do work out but many don't. It just depends on whether you want to risk that you'll spend a great deal of time with him and he doesn't ever change his mind.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, question for you: when you're dating, and in the process of weeding out prospective people, how do you know you're choosing the right person / the best person for you?


Start by listing the attributes you want on a man. Find a man who has them and who also likes you. Develop a relationship with him. which is not based on sex. A lot of people spoil their relationships by having sex before they have a relationship hoping sex with help them build the relationship. 

My attributes included:

1 Funny
2 Does not sulk at any time
3 Loves his parents and never talks ill of them
4 Comes from a close knit family
5 Likes children
6 Has a faith
7 Educated to at least year 13
8 Tells the truth whatever the consequences
9 Approves of women working and earning as much as they can
10 Has hobbies of his own and does not think I am his project
11 Is not keen to make me his dependent
12 Can think and solve problems as they arise and before a crisis 
13 Can discuss freely 
etc
There were 20 of them. 

Yours may e fewer or more and totally different. Everyone has different items on their list. Be sure to be fair to yourself when assessing the man you meet. If he is unsuitable, do not waste your time with him unless you are also wasting his time. 

I got most of what I wanted in one person. 

There are good men out there. Just look carefully. Also ask other people what the man you see is like and listen to their answers. People tell you things freely.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, question for you: when you're dating, and in the process of weeding out prospective people, how do you know you're choosing the right person / the best person for you?


I'm not a chick but I have the feeling if you have to ask the question, that means the person in question is not it.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@Openminded, while it's true that I feel the strongest connection to the No Label guy, I have a huge problem with the fact that he wants a commitment-free thang (i.e., something casual). Casual to me means: temporary, something until something better comes along, friends with benefits. I've been there, done that, and I want someone to come home to at the end of the day (eventually). And no, I'm not willing to invest time into that, along with my heart again, only to probably be crushed again. It's just hard because our feelings for one another are there and pretty strong.

@MaiChi, the attributes that I want are: honesty, loyalty, independence, ability to communicate well, family-oriented and dog-oriented. The only one that Man #1 doesn't have is dog-oriented. And, he likes dogs, he's just not used to being around them and has never been a pet parent. My folks have met him and have said good things about him, but have told me to be careful still. It shocked me that they liked him so much because these are the folks who (after an iffy breakup with my first boyfriend) told me to never bring home a man who wasn't white. So, I was worried about them meeting him, but they liked him and seemed open to his culture.

@oldshirt, to be honest, no matter who I meet, I'm always going to question. I married a man who was proficient at story-telling, and I had no idea until well after we were married. He hid his personal truths very well, and when certain subjects came up months later, he announced that he never said the things that he in fact did tell me. So, the man I thought I was marrying wasn't the man that I got in the end. I'm scared that's going to happen again, and so it takes a lot for me to trust someone now. That also probably has a lot to do with why I haven't gotten comfortable with anyone I've met yet. I've met some really nice men who would be great matches, but I always find some little thing wrong with them. Hell, one man had it all: good career, stable personality, open communicator, loves dogs, loves kids, has a couple kids, a home, independent, and we had much in common. It was his height that got me in the end: he wasn't much taller than me. In the end, how much does that REALLY matter? I crossed him off my list, ended communication, and have thought about him often since then. Where do I draw the line is what I wonder. I know that no one is perfect, and that someone will also have to accept me with my faults included.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Ursula.

Man 1 - your compromising.
Man 2 - playing the field - but "might" like you.
Man 3 - EX BF. Let me Man translate for you and FIP. "Not labelling" relationship = I like you OK but I would like/want someone else better. You'll do until then.

Dump all 3 and start again. You'll thank me


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

2&out said:


> Ursula.
> 
> Man 1 - your compromising.
> Man 2 - playing the field - but "might" like you.
> ...


Really, you're going to call me out in a thread that I haven't even posted in? WTF is your problem?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Ursula said:


> He's made it clear though that while he's interested in being with me, he's not interested in "labelling" our relationship. So, it would be a casual thing, which scares the bejeezus out of me because he could bolt at anytime and leave me heartbroken again. Out of all of the above, this is the man I care about, and who I wish things could work out with. I know in the deep parts of my heart though that that's not likely to happen, although there's a chance it could as well.


You are never going to be able to choose anyone else. Keeping him in your life will spoil any feelings you might be able to have with someone else. You know how mom used to tell you not to snack before dinner or you'll ruin your appetite? You can't see those other guys because the one you want to be with but can't will always be standing in front overshadowing the others. Mr. Right could enter your life, but you won't give him a real chance because you won't be able to see him.

This also falls under what I was saying about establishing standards and expectations for yourself and the men you date. If you want to mess around, mess around and have fun. But if you want more and the guy doesn't, then let him go and value yourself more than allowing him to use you as maintenance. Make the hard decisions that are best for you.

The first thing you should do is ex the ex. He doesn't want a committed relationship and has told you that, so listen to him and believe him so you can let go of hope because there isn't any except in your head. There is no unfinished emotional business with him on his side. He has told you what is up but you are not listening, so stop imagining there is something there that isn't. Of course he will let you hang around. He gets what he wants out of the deal, which is nothing but maintenance. Do you know what maintenance is? Again, it's only in your head that he needs you. He broke up with you. That says whatever he is going through means a lot more to you than it means to him. He's a grown man. He'll be fine. Stop making excuses to hold on.

The second thing is stop seeing anyone at all. Give yourself some time to recuperate and clear your head and then it won't be full, instead of flighting capriciously from one man to the next. After a while, you'll find that you're ready to really give a guy a chance.

I want to ask you to please read my first response again because you're doing what I advised not to do. You are listening to these men and taking what they say as real. But you don't know what's real and what isn't. For example, you have no way of knowing if Guy #1 is family oriented. That's what he told you, but it takes time to see one way or another for yourself. And you have no way of know that you and Guy #2 have a lot in common. You also don't know who he's traveling with. You only know what he has told you. I'm actually wondering what does traveling with his family actually mean. He still vacations with mommy and daddy? For that matter, how can you be certain he's actively looking for his own place? And don't fall for that *schedules don't permit* and "too busy* kind of thing. He's probably married and makes plans to see you when he can get away from wifey. Many women have been duped by that line from guys they met online. As I suggested, you should be doing background checks. If that doesn't reveal marital status, then check court records. You can also check home ownership records and see if he really lives with his folks. It's all public information. And yeah, wife and kids is probably the "family" he's traveling with, if he's actually traveling at all. Believe me girlie, I've heard all these horror stories that you just might be falling for.

Some of these things sound like the likely things a man knows a woman wants to hear, so a guy says them knowing they will influence you in his favor. It's called duping. A person will make you think he's something other than he actually is. Another thing is a guy will just agree with you when you say them and tell you "Yep I like that too" and "Yep I'm that way too." But you also don't want to have double standards by being upset or uncomfortable with a guy doing the same thing that you are doing. I've also read about lots of women discovering their husband has profiles on multiple dating sites. You can't be naive in these things. You have to do your homework and leg work.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, sorry, work got busy yesterday, so I'm just getting around to replying.
> 
> You all bring up good points to think about, thank-you! The last time I was in the dating pool, back in 2012, I concentrated on finding someone with common interests. Now, I realize that those are the icing on the cake and am concentrating on finding someone with similar goals, values and beliefs. I've met 2 men recently, but in the past, I always seemed to pick the wrong man, and hence, am not very confident in my choosing abilities.
> 
> ...


If you were to be totally objective and honest here, isn't Man #2 essentially doing the same thing as you? Hanging with an ex? And if you feel that your relationship with Man #2 is not exclusive/committed enough that you need to break off with your ex-BF, then can you really be justified in any sort of resentment/suspicion/unease/whatever with Man #2 spending time with his ex? Why are you "leery about this twist" then? Should he be "leery about the twist" you have with your ex-BF?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@2&out…Yep, yep and yep, I get where you're coming from, and agree with you 100%.
@FeministInPink, I'm sorry, I have no idea why that happened. Unless FIP means something other than your screen name…?
@StarFires… First off, I always see your name as StarFries, and you're also right, and that's what's been on my mind lately: keeping the ex in my life will blind me if Mr. Right should walk into it. I'm not sure if he means to be manipulative, but this isn't right or fair. I've felt insane guilt towards him for being back in the dating game, and I shouldn't feel like that at all. I make excuses; say I'm out with a girlfriend, when really, I should just say that I'm heading out on a date. You're right, he doesn't have unfinished emotional business with me; he knows what he wants and has me right where he wants me. There's no hope there; he'll keep me as his plaything until he's ready to get back into the dating game, then he'll ditch me for someone better, and I'll be left to pick up the pieces, again. And, I probably do need to just be on my own for awhile. I jumped back into it because I really would like to be a Mom, and there's still a wee bit of hope for that, so I latched on. I guess that's a dream that it's time to let go of, and just concentrate on my own life and getting to that healthy place again. And, I'm well aware that all of these men might be lying to me. I'm aware because I married the last man who did that to me, and I was unaware until well after marriage. I don't want that to happen again, so I'm very careful with what I say and how I present opinions/thoughts. But, where do I draw the line there? If I assume every man is fake and is lying, I'll never find anyone because I'll never give anyone a chance. As to Guy #2, travelling with his family means that he's in Mexico for his Dad's 65th birthday, but yeah that could be a lie. Jesus Murphy, the thought never crossed my mind that he could be married and travelling with his wife and kids. He was introduced to me by a mutual friend for God's sake. Yikes. I always Google the guys I go out with to check them out. Man #1 has checked out so far, but still, yikes. Man #2 I haven't really checked out because he's a friend of a friend who I trust(ed). How do I go about running a background check? Do I need to visit a law enforcement office where I live? Google certainly won't cut it. Holy, trying to get to know someone really doesn't seem worth it anymore. 
@Wolfman1968… Yes, I'm pretty much doing the same thing with my ex as Man #2 is doing with his. We aren't dating, and I know that if I ever do find Mr. Right, my ex would drop out of the picture. I'm not sure if Man #2 thinks the same way as I do; probably doesn't if I'm being honest.

During the writing of this, I closed down my two online dating accounts. I'm done. Between the psychologist manipulator, the handsy dude a couple months back, and all the dudes that are probably faking it to get what they want, I can't do it anymore. I have a decent career that will hopefully be going places this year, and if I get a couple more pay increases, I'll hopefully be in a place to be able to do an overseas adoption in a few years. Until then, just save and prep and work on me and keep as busy as possible.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ursula said:


> @FeministInPink, I'm sorry, I have no idea why that happened. Unless FIP means something other than your screen name…?


You have nothing to apologize for, my friend. You didn't do anything.

As far as I'm aware, FIP doesn't stand for anything else, and I believe he is referring to something in the Singles thread. He's making a comparison to your XBF and Real Estate (my XBF), because he thinks he knows so much better than anyone else.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> You have nothing to apologize for, my friend. You didn't do anything.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, FIP doesn't stand for anything else, and I believe he is referring to something in the Singles thread. He's making a comparison to your XBF and Real Estate (my XBF), because he thinks he knows so much better than anyone else.


Ahhh, well that's odd, since one really doesn't have anything to do with the other. :scratchhead:


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MaiChi said:


> Start by listing the attributes you want on a man. Find a man who has them and who also likes you. Develop a relationship with him. which is not based on sex. A lot of people spoil their relationships by having sex before they have a relationship hoping sex with help them build the relationship.
> .


Sex is a part of most every romantic relationship. So if you are shopping for a friend you are correct. But if you are looking for a lover, the relationship will mostly likely fail if you don't include sex in the mix. Having sex with someone does NOT mean you are committed to each other, it is simply another attribute which must be explored in order to find what you are looking for. I feel really sorry for people who do not understand that. They are the ones who are always getting cheated on, settling or otherwise living unfulfilling lives.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Sex is a part of most every romantic relationship. So if you are shopping for a friend you are correct. But if you are looking for a lover, the relationship will mostly likely fail if you don't include sex in the mix. Having sex with someone does NOT mean you are committed to each other, it is simply another attribute which must be explored in order to find what you are looking for. I feel really sorry for people who do not understand that. They are the ones who are always getting cheated on, settling or otherwise living unfulfilling lives.


I happen to agree with you, Ynot. In my former marriage, this was a huge hump that we just couldn't get over. We weren't on the same page, and he wasn't willing to bend a little, so I conformed to him in this regard. It was awful. I like to spend some time getting to know a person, so while I don't jump in the sack too quickly, I like to know a little sooner rather than later if we're compatible in this regard. It's important info to know, and if we're not compatible, we get to break things off rather than divorce.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Ahhh, well that's odd, since one really doesn't have anything to do with the other. :scratchhead:


.... exactly.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Sex is a part of most every romantic relationship. So if you are shopping for a friend you are correct. But if you are looking for a lover, the relationship will mostly likely fail if you don't include sex in the mix. Having sex with someone does NOT mean you are committed to each other, it is simply another attribute which must be explored in order to find what you are looking for. I feel really sorry for people who do not understand that. They are the ones who are always getting cheated on, settling or otherwise living unfulfilling lives.


I dont see the need to have sex with every partner in order to know whether they are right for us or not. I think that not having sex at that stage is far more beneficial, more time to really get to know that person. I knew that my husband was the one for me very quickly, and we had just kissed and held hands.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ursula, on line dating isn't for the faint hearted or the easily hurt/rejected is it. My main forays into on line dating were on Christian dating sites, so in the main we did share some important things to begin with. I did go onto a couple of secular ones, but they didn't really work for me. I did meet a few nice men on the Christian ones, but we didn't click, and it was 2 years of persistence before I met my now husband. 
Its not something that for most is a quick fix, but a long term process. However I know many couples who did meet this way, but most were on Christian sites.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Ursula, on line dating isn't for the faint hearted or the easily hurt/rejected is it. My main forays into on line dating were on Christian dating sites, so in the main we did share some important things to begin with. I did go onto a couple of secular ones, but they didn't really work for me. I did meet a few nice men on the Christian ones, but we didn't click, and it was 2 years of persistence before I met my now husband.
> Its not something that for most is a quick fix, but a long term process. However I know many couples who did meet this way, but most were on Christian sites.


 @Diana7, I'm not religious, so Christian sites are out for me, as I won't be changing my life around to go to church every Sunday with someone. To me, that's akin to dating someone who likes to barhop every weekend; I don't plan on doing that either, and both are major lifestyle changes for someone. I was on Bumble and eHarmony most recently, and was on Match last year. You're right, it's not for the faint of heart, and the majority of people on them are probably just putting on a really good face. As to the sex, you're right, a person doesn't need to sleep with everyone that they go on a couple dates with; I was talking more along the lines of: things start to get a little more serious, 2 people are seeing each other on a more exclusive basis.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I dont see the need to have sex with every partner in order to know whether they are right for us or not. I think that not having sex at that stage is far more beneficial, more time to really get to know that person. I knew that my husband was the one for me very quickly, and we had just kissed and held hands.


No one said you should have sex with every person you go out. But then you like to jump to conclusions. The reason you and your husband clicked is because holding hands and kissing was all either of you wanted. Neither of you probably had much experience beyond that and vanilla sex. So you were Okay with it.

But many people have their own particular likes and dislikes which extend beyond vanilla sex. They want to know if the person they are potentially going to have a relationship enjoys the same types of activities as they do. So not having sex is a huge waste of their time. Finding out is far more beneficial to both of them than not finding out. Why spend weeks, months or years holding hands and kissing only to find out they do not enjoy whatever it is that you do?

Despite whatever your particular religion teaches you, having sex does not mean you are now soul mates with some one else. It simply means you experienced a mutual physical activity, that you can either accept or reject.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I dont see the need to have sex with every partner in order to know whether they are right for us or not. I think that not having sex at that stage is far more beneficial, more time to really get to know that person. I knew that my husband was the one for me very quickly, and we had just kissed and held hands.


I am also curious as to how "you really get to know that person" when you have placed the most intimate and private things about yourself and them off limits? It would seem to me that "really getting to know a person" would involve learning EVERY thing about them.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I dropped my OLD profile as well. Seemed I was running into guys either looking for a quick lay or ones that were “in love” after the first date...no middle ground. Just concentrating on my work life and dogs for now and hope I will meet someone more organically, so I feel you!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I dropped my OLD profile as well. Seemed I was running into guys either looking for a quick lay or ones that were “in love” after the first date...no middle ground. Just concentrating on my work life and dogs for now and hope I will meet someone more organically, so I feel you!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I tried the OLD again in recent months, after my breakup--and it was completely underwhelming. My experience has been like yours, and the few dates I did go on were beyond disappointing. I deleted my profiles recently, and decided to take a hiatus from dating and just focus on me.

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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ynot said:


> No one said you should have sex with every person you go out. But then you like to jump to conclusions. The reason you and your husband clicked is because holding hands and kissing was all either of you wanted. Neither of you probably had much experience beyond that and vanilla sex. So you were Okay with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this is SO TRUE. I want a kinky partner, one whose interests are compatible with mine, and I can't learn if we are compatible that way without having sex.

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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> I think this is SO TRUE. I want a kinky partner, one whose interests are compatible with mine, and I can't learn if we are compatible that way without having sex.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Absolutely! How would you know if all you did was hold hands and kiss? Everyone is different. For some people holding hands and kissing might be A-Okay, because the expectations are low. But what if that is all that happens and they decide to marry only to find out their new spouse has a really different set of desires than they do? They can either, tough it out and live a miserable life or throw them back (at great expense) and move on. Why, when the option is available, would one ever choose to NOT know?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I would never buy a car that I couldn’t test drive first. 


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Hey ladies, sorry, work got busy yesterday, so I'm just getting around to replying.
> 
> You all bring up good points to think about, thank-you! The last time I was in the dating pool, back in 2012, I concentrated on finding someone with common interests. Now, I realize that those are the icing on the cake and am concentrating on finding someone with similar goals, values and beliefs. I've met 2 men recently, but in the past, I always seemed to pick the wrong man, and hence, am not very confident in my choosing abilities.
> 
> ...


Dump all of that and start over.

A person who wants to be with you will be all in.

Don't settle.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

The way I got to know my husband was from belonging to the same social group - I mean ACTUAL physical social group of friends where people talked to each other and interacted live (this was before cellphones...good luck). I observed how he interacted with other people and also had conversations with him over a period of time. Who were his friends and who were mutual aquaintances and what did they say about him (just me listening, not asking anything about him), etc.

What kind of conversations could he hold, was he interested in me, did he hold his interest or did his interest wander...etc. He maintained his interest over a period of months, even after he asked me out and I couldn't go the first time. He was patient, he waited. We both had brief other encounters but our interest in each other grew over a period of time. 

My daughter and her husband also had this kind of relationship that developed over before they decided to start dating. 

I'm not going to knock the dating apps but it seems like "speed" dating (although I realize that an actual separate activity). That's not organic enough for me. 

I am not a good casual dater. I don't like one-night-stands and I would hate something like Tinder. I don't like the swinger lifestyle or attitude either. I'm just not cut out of that mold. 

But the only way I found to successfully find what I was looking for - which was a life partner - was to spend time objectively observing the other person in a variety of situations where there was no stated intent to be dating or invest in a relationship. I think a person really is a lot more genuine and has their guard down when they don't feel like they are being observed as a potential life partner.

Then, I had a close mentor who I could talk to discreetly (that means no one else would be privy to any of my thoughts or feelings on the matter). 

I think the guy (who later became my husband) - from what we have discussed since that time - primarily was physically attracted to me. But he knew that physical attraction was not going to be consummated without a deeper relationship. I wasn't interested in a marriage trap or a one-night-stand...but I was looking for a serious ltr and if he hadn't been, it would have been fine to just say...next. And he knew that. He was interested in a ltr but he would have been okay with just about anything shy of that also. 

He said something to me once when we did finally start dating: "No expectations" - to which I laughed and replied, "Ha, well I have expectations" and proceeded to list them. He said he just didn't want to lose me by imposing any restrictions but I was in my mid-30s by then and I felt like the "no expectations" thing was just a commitment avoidance. He quickly joined the conversation of expectations then and we were able to shape our relationship going forward.

I think in the dating game, if I had to do that all over again, I wouldn't even date someone casually with sex involved. A casual relationship with sex is a non-starter. For one thing, I wouldn't know who else he's dating/having sex with casually. And safe sex is important to me. I don't trust condoms to protect me from STIs, I've seen those things leak around the edges and oral sex isn't safe either. 

Other guys I "dated" - ugh. Once an issue arises that is something I can't live with on a long term, I was out of there. It takes strong mutual attraction with a partner who makes you a priority (and vice versa) and doesn't have anything that I would have to "put up with" - excessive drinking, doing drugs, unpleasant family members I'd have to see on a regular basis, friends with scary issues, loose ends with other women, etc, bad, nasty habits, unkempt, poor hygiene, unkempt living conditions, poor financial decision making, ANY kind of anger issues, opposing political views, poor education, any kind of arrogance or disrespect towards others, poor work record. I brought a lot to a relationship and I wasn't going to settle for something less than what I was bringing for the other person.

These things I could better tell by watching him in groups of people and knowing people in our mutual circle of friends. 

I married a great guy, very loyal, hard-working, dedicated, a great sexual match and, even though we've weathered a lot of bumps in the road, we've had a wonderful 29 years together.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Sounds like you need to give the ex the boot for good. 

Casually date whoever strikes your fancy at the time. (No sex)

Don't put too much emphasis on finding Mr. Right, right now.

Just have fun.

I understand you want kids. But you don't want to settle for a man you aren't crazy about just to have kids.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@happiness27 You're living the dream! I honestly think that is the ideal way to get to know someone and begin a relationship. I think the biggest problem when you get older is that those social opportunities, where you get to know someone else on an ongoing basis over time, are more difficult to come by and they happen less frequently. People become busy with jobs, and as friends get married and have kids, they get together less frequently because life gets in the way. When you're younger, in college or in your early 20s, those social gatherings happen a lot. Not so much once you get older... you have to really invest a lot of time (which you don't always have) for that to happen, which is why I think a lot of people turn to online dating.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> @happiness27 You're living the dream! I honestly think that is the ideal way to get to know someone and begin a relationship. I think the biggest problem when you get older is that those social opportunities, where you get to know someone else on an ongoing basis over time, are more difficult to come by and they happen less frequently. People become busy with jobs, and as friends get married and have kids, they get together less frequently because life gets in the way. When you're younger, in college or in your early 20s, those social gatherings happen a lot. Not so much once you get older... you have to really invest a lot of time (which you don't always have) for that to happen, which is why I think a lot of people turn to online dating.



I think that for me the idea was to meet a man on line and then get to know him by meeting up regularly. 
Although we met on line, we met in person after just 4 days.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> The way I got to know my husband was from belonging to the same social group - I mean ACTUAL physical social group of friends where people talked to each other and interacted live (this was before cellphones...good luck). I observed how he interacted with other people and also had conversations with him over a period of time. Who were his friends and who were mutual aquaintances and what did they say about him (just me listening, not asking anything about him), etc.
> 
> What kind of conversations could he hold, was he interested in me, did he hold his interest or did his interest wander...etc. He maintained his interest over a period of months, even after he asked me out and I couldn't go the first time. He was patient, he waited. We both had brief other encounters but our interest in each other grew over a period of time.
> 
> ...


Yes its vital that we share the same ideas and expectations about the future. We both wanted someone to marry. Neither of us was interested in casual dating or casual sex.
A younger family member of mine met his now wife on line and they were talking about how many children they wanted on the 3rd date! They are now very happily married with children.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ynot said:


> Absolutely! How would you know if all you did was hold hands and kiss? Everyone is different. For some people holding hands and kissing might be A-Okay, because the expectations are low. But what if that is all that happens and they decide to marry only to find out their new spouse has a really different set of desires than they do? They can either, tough it out and live a miserable life or throw them back (at great expense) and move on. Why, when the option is available, would one ever choose to NOT know?


Yes! I don't like to advertise on my (now gone) OLD profiles that I'm kinky, because a lot of men think that is code for "she's easy." Or if they don't, you get guys who will say, "hell yeah, I'm kinky!" but then when you give them a go, all they do is give you a weak swat on the ass and freak out when you tell them what you REALLY want. Of there are the guys that think kinky = dominatrix, and they want you to make all their submissive fantasies come true.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Yes its vital that we share the same ideas and expectations about the future. We both wanted someone to marry. Neither of us was interested in casual dating or casual sex.
> A younger family member of mine met his now wife on line and they were talking about how many children they wanted on the 3rd date! They are now very happily married with children.


The pattern I've noticed when it comes to the stories I've heard about couples meeting on Christian OLD is that people using Christian OLD are there with the clear intention to find a true mate, companion, and LTR/marriage. Like you said, both you and your husband were looking for someone to marry, and I get the impression that represents the majority of people on Christian OLD sites.

But when it comes to non-Christian OLD, it's a completely different game. There are certainly people looking for LTR/marriage, but you've also got people looking for casual relationships, people looking for hookups/just sex, people who are on there because they're just bored, jerks trying to catfish people and screw with them, couples looking for a third/unicorn, people in open/poly relationships looking for an additional partner... you have to sort through a lot of chaff to get to the wheat. And even the sites that are supposed to be for LTR/marriage minded people (like Match) still get infiltrated with all these other people. It's incredibly frustrating for people who are looking for LTR/marriage, and they usually just drop out of the game because it's not worth the effort. And not to mention all the inactive profiles that continue to pop up in searches, because it seems like no one deactivates their accounts when they stop using the apps/OLD sites.

Sometimes I wish I was a non-kinky Christian just so I could use your OLD, because everyone I know who has used them makes it sound like it was so easy to meet someone and get married


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@FeministInPink

Kinky girl safe and consensual dating app. Let’s get on that today.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> @FeministInPink
> 
> Kinky girl safe and consensual dating app. Let’s get on that today.


YES!!! I've been on a couple kinky dating sites. They are awful.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> I am also curious as to how "you really get to know that person" when you have placed the most intimate and private things about yourself and them off limits? It would seem to me that "really getting to know a person" would involve learning EVERY thing about them.


Communication and communication. We may not have had sex, but we talked about it. We know what each thought about it and liked about it and didn't like about it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Absolutely! How would you know if all you did was hold hands and kiss? Everyone is different. For some people holding hands and kissing might be A-Okay, because the expectations are low. But what if that is all that happens and they decide to marry only to find out their new spouse has a really different set of desires than they do? They can either, tough it out and live a miserable life or throw them back (at great expense) and move on. Why, when the option is available, would one ever choose to NOT know?


As I said in my other post, you communicate. You are honest with each other. No we didn't have low expectations as far as sex is concerned. We both know that sex in marriage is very special and very important. 
How many here did have sex before marriage and then that changed? Loads and loads. Whereas we are happily married with a great sex life. 
Having sex with partners before marriage is absolutely no guarantee that there will be a good sex life after marriage. Some of the best marriages I know are between couples who waited.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> The pattern I've noticed when it comes to the stories I've heard about couples meeting on Christian OLD is that people using Christian OLD are there with the clear intention to find a true mate, companion, and LTR/marriage. Like you said, both you and your husband were looking for someone to marry, and I get the impression that represents the majority of people on Christian OLD sites.
> 
> But when it comes to non-Christian OLD, it's a completely different game. There are certainly people looking for LTR/marriage, but you've also got people looking for casual relationships, people looking for hookups/just sex, people who are on there because they're just bored, jerks trying to catfish people and screw with them, couples looking for a third/unicorn, people in open/poly relationships looking for an additional partner... you have to sort through a lot of chaff to get to the wheat. And even the sites that are supposed to be for LTR/marriage minded people (like Match) still get infiltrated with all these other people. It's incredibly frustrating for people who are looking for LTR/marriage, and they usually just drop out of the game because it's not worth the effort. And not to mention all the inactive profiles that continue to pop up in searches, because it seems like no one deactivates their accounts when they stop using the apps/OLD sites.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I was a non-kinky Christian just so I could use your OLD, because everyone I know who has used them makes it sound like it was so easy to meet someone and get married


No not easy, as I said it was 2 years before I met the right man. A lady I know was on Christians dating sites for 7 years before she met her now husband. Also for women its very hard because there are so few men, and that gets worse the older you get. Also in the UK only 5% of people go to church, so we have a far far smaller pot of potential partners.
Swings and roundabouts I guess.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Communication and communication. We may not have had sex, but we talked about it. We know what each thought about it and liked about it and didn't like about it.


You can talk about anything as long as you want and anyone can say anything about whatever they want, but that does not change the fact that it is their actions and not their words that tell you who a person is. You will never know who they are or what they want until you see them in action. I would rather find out who some one really is before I make a legal commitment such as marriage.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> @happiness27 You're living the dream! I honestly think that is the ideal way to get to know someone and begin a relationship. I think the biggest problem when you get older is that those social opportunities, where you get to know someone else on an ongoing basis over time, are more difficult to come by and they happen less frequently. People become busy with jobs, and as friends get married and have kids, they get together less frequently because life gets in the way. When you're younger, in college or in your early 20s, those social gatherings happen a lot. Not so much once you get older... you have to really invest a lot of time (which you don't always have) for that to happen, which is why I think a lot of people turn to online dating.


Exactly. I used to be in a concert band, and met someone there. I had joined the band in 2002 (he was already a member/musician in it), and we started dating in 2007. This is the last time I met someone organically. I would love to join it again, or join another group, but work full time, and as of the New Year, one of my home-based businesses kind of went gangbusters, so I have zero time to do something like join a weekly group.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> And even the sites that are supposed to be for LTR/marriage minded people (like Match) still get infiltrated with all these other people.
> Sometimes I wish I was a non-kinky Christian just so I could use your OLD, because everyone I know who has used them makes it sound like it was so easy to meet someone and get married


Just so you know, Match bought out both POF and Tinder a few years ago, so there is A LOT of garbage on that particular site. I did my research before joining anything back in 2017 (but just discovered this POF/Tinder info), and found Match to be really bad. I'd never join it again! And yeah, I wish I didn't have the drive/kink that I have either!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People are not always honest *with themselves* about their sexual interests. I don't think people really know what they want until they actually are in a sexual relationship.

My wife would honestly say that she wants an active and passionate sex life. She just never wants it *now* (for all values of "now"). 






Diana7 said:


> Communication and communication. We may not have had sex, but we talked about it. We know what each thought about it and liked about it and didn't like about it.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> No not easy, as I said it was 2 years before I met the right man. A lady I know was on Christians dating sites for 7 years before she met her now husband. Also for women its very hard because there are so few men, and that gets worse the older you get. Also in the UK only 5% of people go to church, so we have a far far smaller pot of potential partners.
> Swings and roundabouts I guess.


Wow, that few, really? I didn't realize. There are a LOT more Christians on this side of the pond, so likely a bigger dating pool for Christians here.

And aside from you, all the examples I know of are here in the US.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Just so you know, Match bought out both POF and Tinder a few years ago, so there is A LOT of garbage on that particular site. I did my research before joining anything back in 2017 (but just discovered this POF/Tinder info), and found Match to be really bad. I'd never join it again! And yeah, I wish I didn't have the drive/kink that I have either!


I didn't know about Match purchasing those two... I've read a lot of articles that say, "Get on Match, the people there are more serious about finding a serious relationship because you have to PAY." But all the personal anecdotes I've heard from people is that Match is basically as bad as all the other sites.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I didn't know about Match purchasing those two... I've read a lot of articles that say, "Get on Match, the people there are more serious about finding a serious relationship because you have to PAY." But all the personal anecdotes I've heard from people is that Match is basically as bad as all the other sites.


Here's a link to the info that I located on it. I'm not sure how legit it is, but from the sounds of it, the Match company owns Tinder, *******, Match.com and now POF.

https://www.businessinsider.com/match-buys-plentyoffish-for-575-million-2015-7


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ursula said:


> Just so you know, Match bought out both POF and Tinder a few years ago, so there is A LOT of garbage on that particular site. I did my research before joining anything back in 2017 (but just discovered this POF/Tinder info), and found Match to be really bad. I'd never join it again! And yeah, I wish I didn't have the drive/kink that I have either!


I went against the advice of @Faithful Wife and set up my account on Match. I agree with you both, it's really bad. Your profile is visible to everyone whose parameters your profile meets NOT where BOTH profiles agree. For example, I have a search limit of 20 miles but my profile is viewed by people across the country. Knowing that, I had to pay an extra $58 to make it visible to only those people I want to see it. It's a big money scam. Thank goodness I only purchased 3 months.

And it's not just Match. Popular apps are atrocious in my area. Bumble is known as the sugar baby app. PoF is psycho central and the very bottom of the barrel. Tinder is the hookup app for beautiful people.OKC is about the only one that gets good reviews. I didn't learn about this until after I paid for the three months on Match. 

It sucks all of the way around, even for us vanilla peeps.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> I went against the advice of @Faithful Wife and set up my account on Match. I agree with you both, it's really bad. Your profile is visible to everyone whose parameters your profile meets NOT where BOTH profiles agree. For example, I have a search limit of 20 miles but my profile is viewed by people across the country. Knowing that, I had to pay an extra $58 to make it visible to only those people I want to see it. It's a big money scam. Thank goodness I only purchased 3 months.
> 
> And it's not just Match. Popular apps are atrocious in my area. Bumble is known as the sugar baby app. PoF is psycho central and the very bottom of the barrel. Tinder is the hookup app for beautiful people.OKC is about the only one that gets good reviews. I didn't learn about this until after I paid for the three months on Match.
> 
> It sucks all of the way around, even for us vanilla peeps.


Not sure why, but around here bumble is the best. I haven’t encountered the same level of “crappy people” on there as I have on the other sites, and the guys of course can’t just message you, you have to match with them first. Maybe just in my area this tends to bring forth a slightly higher maturity/emotional intelligence level of men? Ok Cupid is my second favorite. There is a free version of both which works just fine.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> @happiness27 You're living the dream! I honestly think that is the ideal way to get to know someone and begin a relationship. I think the biggest problem when you get older is that those social opportunities, where you get to know someone else on an ongoing basis over time, are more difficult to come by and they happen less frequently. People become busy with jobs, and as friends get married and have kids, they get together less frequently because life gets in the way. When you're younger, in college or in your early 20s, those social gatherings happen a lot. Not so much once you get older... you have to really invest a lot of time (which you don't always have) for that to happen, which is why I think a lot of people turn to online dating.


I think if you do the things you are interested in, you tend to meet people who enjoy the same activities. I'm a blues/jazz photographer and go to a lot of local venues to listen to different bands. There's a lot of people who go to these events, some larger, some smaller venues. Many of the people I meet here (not for dating but just interesting people) have an interest in listening to music but also they are interesting in other ways as well.

There are all kinds of arts meetings where you can go and listen to authors or artists. 

There are sporting events, if you are into that kind of thing, where people tailgate with friends.

There are cooking classes, community classes at local colleges, acting class, a science class, a nutrition class, a business class - whatever you are interested in - plus, there are all kinds of meet-up groups for any number of special interests. Book clubs, astronomy clubs, boating clubs, all kinds of hobbies.

I just think that dating sites, which are apparently the wave of the NOW are sites where anybody can be anybody - and you don't really know who you are meeting because anybody can write a profile that may or may not be completely accurate. Plus, the ridiculous scrutiny of being a part of a big pool of other choices - swipe left, swipe right - seems like it's a place where everybody is looking for the next better person based on...what?

If you are a part of a known local community, it's more likely you will know people who know people so you are more likely to get a long factual history about a person from trusted sources.

Personally, I wouldn't go to a dating site to meet anyone. It's like being in a big bar where the guys are scanning the room, looking for something better all the time. It seems like you would meet untruthful, shallow people mostly.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Lila said:


> I went against the advice of @Faithful Wife and set up my account on Match. I agree with you both, it's really bad. Your profile is visible to everyone whose parameters your profile meets NOT where BOTH profiles agree. For example, I have a search limit of 20 miles but my profile is viewed by people across the country. Knowing that, I had to pay an extra $58 to make it visible to only those people I want to see it. It's a big money scam. Thank goodness I only purchased 3 months.
> 
> And it's not just Match. Popular apps are atrocious in my area. Bumble is known as the sugar baby app. PoF is psycho central and the very bottom of the barrel. Tinder is the hookup app for beautiful people.OKC is about the only one that gets good reviews. I didn't learn about this until after I paid for the three months on Match.
> 
> It sucks all of the way around, even for us vanilla peeps.


Shoot, I'm sorry to hear that you're having such a lousy time on Match, Lila! I didn't know that info about the profile visibility, and that you have to pay more for the parameters feature to work the way it should work to begin with. Good luck with the rest of your stint on it, and I hope it works out okay for you in the end!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Not sure why, but around here bumble is the best. I haven’t encountered the same level of “crappy people” on there as I have on the other sites, and the guys of course can’t just message you, you have to match with them first. *Maybe just in my area this tends to bring forth a slightly higher maturity/emotional intelligence level of men? *Ok Cupid is my second favorite. There is a free version of both which works just fine.


It would be interesting to see a cross sectional breakdown of online dating user demographics across the country. I could see how bumble works well in the Pacific Northwest where there are more liberal /non traditional men and women.

If I choose to try online dating again, I will most likely use OKC. I don't mind paying for the services as long as they deliver on said services without nickel-and-diming me to death.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"Sometimes I wish I was a non-kinky Christian just so I could use your OLD, because everyone I know who has used them makes it sound like it was so easy to meet someone and get married "

Doesn't mean that if you are Christian, that you aren't kinky. You may be surprised.....


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ursula said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I went against the advice of @Faithful Wife and set up my account on Match. I agree with you both, it's really bad. Your profile is visible to everyone whose parameters your profile meets NOT where BOTH profiles agree. For example, I have a search limit of 20 miles but my profile is viewed by people across the country. Knowing that, I had to pay an extra $58 to make it visible to only those people I want to see it. It's a big money scam. Thank goodness I only purchased 3 months.
> ...


Awww.... no worries @Ursula. It's not all doom and gloom. The on line dating thing has been fun for me. I have read some hilarious profiles, gotten crazy messages from wack jobs, and met some really nice guys. 

I think online dating is like boot camp. Most people who go through it hate it but then spend the rest of their lives reminiscing about it. It's about the experience. I'm planning on making the most of it. A girlfriend of mine suggested I start a blog journaling my dating adventures. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a great idea.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> If I choose to try online dating again, I will most likely use OKC. I don't mind paying for the services as long as they deliver on said services without nickel-and-diming me to death.


On both bumble and okc, the only advantage to the paid for version is that you get to see who liked you, even if you didn't like them first. I've found that sometimes helpful or entertaining. Once you pay the week or month subscription fee, there's no more nickle and diming (though apparently you can buy "coins" or some such dumb thing on bumble, and that allows you to do more "super swipes" or "swipe backs" or "last chance" options...no clue what reason there is for any of these, but they don't seem to push you outrageously hard to buy them).

I think maybe the main thing is that people do have some expectations about OLD, but there is really no more "luck" there than there is meeting someone in real life. There is a lot that has to happen between "hey, that guy is cute" and "hey! we are totally getting into an exclusive relationship now after 5 or more dates!"

So many things happen in between that allow us to see a person may not be a match for us. This is just normal. I think people have too high of expectations to meet someone "perfect for them" in some short amount of time.

It usually takes me a few months of sifting and swiping, talking and dating, to narrow down to just 1 that I have the mutual desire with to take ourselves off the market and see how things progress. And it is not all sad and lonely in the meantime, I'm talking to so many lovely, amazing, smart and sexy men, dating them, learning things about their worlds (which is interesting even if there's not a second date).

A few months does not seem like a very long time. And even then I'm not saying you will always find a perfect one, but I have every time found "the next one". Whatever position I was in at the time I found him determined the level of the relationship we had.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> You can talk about anything as long as you want and anyone can say anything about whatever they want, but that does not change the fact that it is their actions and not their words that tell you who a person is. You will never know who they are or what they want until you see them in action. I would rather find out who some one really is before I make a legal commitment such as marriage.


If you cant trust a person to be honest and open about themselves and their likes and dislikes, then why marry them?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> People are not always honest *with themselves* about their sexual interests. I don't think people really know what they want until they actually are in a sexual relationship.
> 
> My wife would honestly say that she wants an active and passionate sex life. She just never wants it *now* (for all values of "now").


We were honest and open about our thoughts and desires. Its worked out as I thought it would.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> Wow, that few, really? I didn't realize. There are a LOT more Christians on this side of the pond, so likely a bigger dating pool for Christians here.
> 
> And aside from you, all the examples I know of are here in the US.


I have a family member(a Christian) who met his wife this way, and my daughter knows several Christian couples who met this way. It happens, but we do have far less of a pool to choose from.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You were fortunate (and that is great - I'm glad it worked out well for you).

For many people though it doesn't work well. Its not just people being intentionally deceptive, but rather people who don't really know what they themselves want. I think this is especially true for sex.

Since I'm in a sex-starved marriage, I honestly believe I would be happy with sex every day with an enthusiastic partner. But would I? Or after a few months would I find that much too much and discover that twice a week is really as much as works for me. 

Since I'm married to someone with a fairly narrow set of sexual interests, a variety of more kinky activities sound fun. But its quite possible I'd discover that the reality doesn't match the fantasy and that once the novelty wore off, I would enjoy a much more limited set of activities. 


I don't think anyone can really know the sort of sex life that they want until they experience it. They may guess, and that guess may sometimes be right, but I expect that often it is not very accurate. 




Diana7 said:


> We were honest and open about our thoughts and desires. Its worked out as I thought it would.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

uhtred said:


> You were fortunate (and that is great - I'm glad it worked out well for you).
> 
> For many people though it doesn't work well. Its not just people being intentionally deceptive, but rather people who don't really know what they themselves want. I think this is especially true for sex.
> 
> ...


Yep, some people blindly stumble into it and consider themselves geniuses. The reality is that they were simply lucky enough to find someone who likes (or at least willing to settle for) the same things they like or vice versa.
The odds though are against you. And FTR you can trust someone as much as you like, but as you said if they aren't being honest with themselves it doesn't matter how much you trust them.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> If you cant trust a person to be honest and open about themselves and their likes and dislikes, then why marry them?


You can trust someone to your hearts content, that doesn't mean they are being honest with themselves. BTW, why did you marry your first husband? Did you trust him to be open and honest about his likes and dislikes but only found out later he wasn't?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed. Beyond even honesty to ones self, there is simply not knowing. Sex every day sounds great to me now - but would I want that year after year in real life? There is no way I could really know without experiencing it. 

Its not just sex, its that sex is the one that is most difficult to discover. I love to travel BUT - over time I've discovered that I don't like to be away from home for more than about 2 weeks. I just stop enjoying it and want to go back to my own bed, my own shower, my own food, my friends etc. I don't think I could have predicted that in advance. 




Ynot said:


> Yep, some people blindly stumble into it and consider themselves geniuses. The reality is that they were simply lucky enough to find someone who likes (or at least willing to settle for) the same things they like or vice versa.
> The odds though are against you. And FTR you can trust someone as much as you like, but as you said if they aren't being honest with themselves it doesn't matter how much you trust them.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Agreed. Beyond even honesty to ones self, there is simply not knowing. Sex every day sounds great to me now - but would I want that year after year in real life? There is no way I could really know without experiencing it.
> 
> Its not just sex, its that sex is the one that is most difficult to discover. I love to travel BUT - over time I've discovered that I don't like to be away from home for more than about 2 weeks. I just stop enjoying it and want to go back to my own bed, my own shower, my own food, my friends etc. I don't think I could have predicted that in advance.


Absolutely! The only way to know is to find out. And it works both ways. You may not know and/or your SO may not know. IMO its best to find out BEFORE you make a lifetime legal commitment. Which even then is no guarantee, but at least you can say you tried to vet them first


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

jlg07 said:


> "Sometimes I wish I was a non-kinky Christian just so I could use your OLD, because everyone I know who has used them makes it sound like it was so easy to meet someone and get married "
> 
> Doesn't mean that if you are Christian, that you aren't kinky. You may be surprised.....


LOL, fair point 

But I will say, I have met very few (if ANY!) Christians in my local kink scene. Or if they are, they are keeping their religion to themselves.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I have a family member(a Christian) who met his wife this way, and my daughter knows several Christian couples who met this way. It happens, but we do have far less of a pool to choose from.


If I was Christian, I bet I would know a lot more people who met this way. Most of the examples I know of are family members/cousins. (I'm the black sheep atheist in the family.)


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

uhtred said:


> You were fortunate (and that is great - I'm glad it worked out well for you).
> 
> For many people though it doesn't work well. Its not just people being intentionally deceptive, but rather people who don't really know what they themselves want. I think this is especially true for sex.
> 
> ...


 @Diana7 I agree with @uhtred on this point... I think you were very lucky. Not everyone who claims to be open and honest is actually being open and honest.

Using my former marriage as an example... my XH was very deceptive. He claimed to be one way and want certain things, and behaved that way before marriage so his actions would match his words, giving me no reason to doubt the veracity--and what he showed me matched what I wanted in a partner. But he wasn't being honest, he was being deceptive, and all of that was really a lie. After we married, he changed significantly as the facade he had so carefully crafted--which was initially created to get me to love him and eventually marry him--began to disintegrate and fall away. I discovered his true nature and who he really was, and that person was someone I wouldn't even be friends with, let alone date or marry.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Communication and communication. We may not have had sex, but we talked about it. We know what each thought about it and liked about it and didn't like about it.



So you had ES (emotional sex)beforehand? is that allowed? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I think if you do the things you are interested in, you tend to meet people who enjoy the same activities. I'm a blues/jazz photographer and go to a lot of local venues to listen to different bands. There's a lot of people who go to these events, some larger, some smaller venues. Many of the people I meet here (not for dating but just interesting people) have an interest in listening to music but also they are interesting in other ways as well.
> 
> There are all kinds of arts meetings where you can go and listen to authors or artists.
> 
> ...


I think all of this is pretty spot-on. Unfortunately, given my present work schedule, I can't do a lot of this stuff. I work evenings and on weekends, mostly, and I'm not making much money right now, so even if I had the schedule availability, I don't have the funds to go out and do things that are free. This is kind of killed my social life. If I'm lucky, I make it out once a week for karaoke. And my best friend has been good about getting me out of the house and doing other things since the BF and I broke up, and he's even been paying for a lot of stuff because he knows I'm strapped.

Among other things, I'm focusing on the job front right now to get that bit turned around, so I think that will help. But I'm definitely an introvert, so going out a lot of stuff with the intention of meeting people is not only exhausting, but intensely uncomfortable for me. I'm a great conversationalist once I hit on a topic that is engaging for both I and the other person, but it is a huge struggle to find that sweet spot.

I recently made a new friend at karaoke... he and I have been going to some of the same venues for a few years now, crossing paths once a month or so, but we have only recently begun to talk to one another recently. (Don't get excited for me, he's gay, so it's a non-starter.) Anyway, before Christmas, we were out at karaoke with a bunch of other people, and he and I ended up getting into the first REAL (read: non-superficial) conversation we've ever had, and by the end of the night, he said a few things which made clear I had made a really big impression on him. Yesterday, I sent him a friend request on Facebook, which he accepted, and this morning I received a message from him about how he was glad that we finally met, and he really enjoyed talking with me. He also said, "TBH, I was a little scared of you at first, but after our conversation I really got to like you and am so glad that we met."

And I was like, seriously? You were scared of me? I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. People who know me will tell you that I am one of the warmest and kindest people they know. I asked him what he meant/why, just because I was curious, but he hasn't responded. I'm definitely going to ask him next time I see him.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Exactly. I used to be in a concert band, and met someone there. I had joined the band in 2002 (he was already a member/musician in it), and we started dating in 2007. This is the last time I met someone organically. I would love to join it again, or join another group, but work full time, and as of the New Year, one of my home-based businesses kind of went gangbusters, so I have zero time to do something like join a weekly group.


It doesn't have to be a weekly group - it can just be that you have a hot spot or several that you frequent where you know there will be some people you know - making a point to get out and physically socialize. FWIW, I'm not a big drinker, rarely have even a single drink. So, it's possible to socialize and not drink a bunch.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MaiChi said:


> Start by listing the attributes you want on a man. Find a man who has them and who also likes you. Develop a relationship with him. which is not based on sex. A lot of people spoil their relationships by having sex before they have a relationship hoping sex with help them build the relationship.
> 
> My attributes included:
> 
> ...


The idea of making a list of attributes is a VERY important one. This is what I did before I met my husband - as was suggested by a wise friend. It really helped me weed out who just wasn't going to work for me. 

I no longer have my list but every one of us has our own preferences so that list is going to be different for each person.

Great post by this lady.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ursula said:


> I happen to agree with you, Ynot. In my former marriage, this was a huge hump that we just couldn't get over. We weren't on the same page, and he wasn't willing to bend a little, so I conformed to him in this regard. It was awful. I like to spend some time getting to know a person, so while I don't jump in the sack too quickly, I like to know a little sooner rather than later if we're compatible in this regard. It's important info to know, and if we're not compatible, we get to break things off rather than divorce.


I do think that sexual compatibility is important - but, at least for me, I'm still not going to jump in the sack with a guy I'm not compatible with in other ways first. I'd be leery of a guy who wanted to jump in the sack too soon. A guy who's not willing to get to know me is probably not willing to get to know the other people he's wanting to jump in the sack with. Please, guys, have some selectivity for the sake of your health.

I have no idea what it's like to date these days with all these websites matching people up. I would likely go to events and mingle with people and friends and private parties, go to some university classes, etc. To meet quality people, I think it's important to hang out with other quality folks in arenas of interest that hold my interest. 

Much as I photograph and enjoy the company of musician friends, I know I'm not a musician myself and I would not likely be compatible in a relationship with a musician. I also would not be compatible with another photographer or even another artist. 

You know I was just thinking something...that at some point after my husband and I had been married, we both did a personality profile. I'm not suggesting that one would ask a potential partner to do a personality profile but you might be interested in doing one for yourself. It really helps to know where your personality tendencies - and how to spot the tendencies in another person. It's okay for two people to be different, it's just nice to know where those differences lie.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Ynot said:


> *You can trust someone to your hearts content, that doesn't mean they are being honest with themselves.* BTW, why did you marry your first husband? Did you trust him to be open and honest about his likes and dislikes but only found out later he wasn't?


I'm pretty sure this is what happened with my now XH; I don't think he outright lied to me. I think he just didn't know what the heck he wanted in his own life, so he smiled, nodded and agreed. Then, when he got things figured out for himself, he didn't bother communicating those ideas and changes, and when they did come up, he played dumb to the things he had agreed to prior to marriage. So yeah, you can trust someone til the cows come home, but that only goes so far, and that's what I find scary now.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> @Diana7 I agree with @uhtred on this point... I think you were very lucky. Not everyone who claims to be open and honest is actually being open and honest.
> 
> Using my former marriage as an example... my XH was very deceptive. He claimed to be one way and want certain things, and behaved that way before marriage so his actions would match his words, giving me no reason to doubt the veracity--and what he showed me matched what I wanted in a partner. But he wasn't being honest, he was being deceptive, and all of that was really a lie. After we married, he changed significantly as the facade he had so carefully crafted--which was initially created to get me to love him and eventually marry him--began to disintegrate and fall away. I discovered his true nature and who he really was, and that person was someone I wouldn't even be friends with, let alone date or marry.


Yes Diana, I think you can consider yourself among the very lucky that things worked out so well for you. @FeministInPink, BINGO! That's what happened with my former marriage as well. I'm not sure if he was just acting a certain way, or didn't know what he wanted, but whatever it was changed drastically after marriage, and I couldn't stay married to him, although I tried. By the way, in reading another post of yours, I wish we lived closer, as you sound much like me!


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> *I do think that sexual compatibility is important - but, at least for me, I'm still not going to jump in the sack with a guy I'm not compatible with in other ways first.* I'd be leery of a guy who wanted to jump in the sack too soon. A guy who's not willing to get to know me is probably not willing to get to know the other people he's wanting to jump in the sack with. Please, guys, have some selectivity for the sake of your health.
> 
> I have no idea what it's like to date these days with all these websites matching people up. I would likely go to events and mingle with people and friends and private parties, go to some university classes, etc. To meet quality people, I think it's important to hang out with other quality folks in arenas of interest that hold my interest.
> 
> ...


In regards to the bolded, me too. Do you remember the personality profile that you and your husband did? If you think of it, please send me the link!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Yes Diana, I think you can consider yourself among the very lucky that things worked out so well for you. @FeministInPink, BINGO! That's what happened with my former marriage as well. I'm not sure if he was just acting a certain way, or didn't know what he wanted, but whatever it was changed drastically after marriage, and I couldn't stay married to him, although I tried. By the way, in reading another post of yours, I wish we lived closer, as you sound much like me!


I don't know where you are geographically, but I hope to do more traveling over the next few years, so there's a possibility that we could meet in person at some point, you never know! I'm already thinking about making a trip out to the west coast, where I've never been and will get to meet another TAMer.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> You can trust someone to your hearts content, that doesn't mean they are being honest with themselves. BTW, why did you marry your first husband? Did you trust him to be open and honest about his likes and dislikes but only found out later he wasn't?


The reason our marriage ended wasn't about sex.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> The reason our marriage ended wasn't about sex.


Um, you are missing the point. Because the real person isn't all about sex either. You suggested you could get to know the real person by talking. I suggested otherwise. Case in point your first marriage. I am telling you that there is a much better chance of knowing the real person, when NOTHING is off limits, up to and including sex.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I do think that sexual compatibility is important - but, at least for me, I'm still not going to jump in the sack with a guy I'm not compatible with in other ways first. I'd be leery of a guy who wanted to jump in the sack too soon. A guy who's not willing to get to know me is probably not willing to get to know the other people he's wanting to jump in the sack with. Please, guys, have some selectivity for the sake of your health.
> .


No one has suggested you jump in bed with someone you are not compatible with in other areas. What has been said is that a part of compatibility is sexual compatibility. People who take sex off the table or hold some arbitrary time schedule are doing themselves a disservice, as they will never know the whether they are truly compatible with someone as long as they place portions of themselves and/or their potential partner off limits.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Um, you are missing the point. Because the real person isn't all about sex either. You suggested you could get to know the real person by talking. I suggested otherwise. Case in point your first marriage. I am telling you that there is a much better chance of knowing the real person, when NOTHING is off limits, up to and including sex.


We had a long marriage, 25 years, so living together first would have made no difference. As it happens the reason it ended wasn't because of issues in our relationship.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> We had a long marriage, 25 years, so living together first would have made no difference. As it happens the reason it ended wasn't because of issues in our relationship.


It would be nice if you stuck to the subject at hand. Who said anything about living together? You jump all over the place to defend your position. But since you mentioned it. If your relationship didn't end because of issues in the relationship then why would it end? Something happened to change your relationship ie an issue came up. An issue which apparently talking about it could not resolve it.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I don't know where you are geographically, but I hope to do more traveling over the next few years, so there's a possibility that we could meet in person at some point, you never know! I'm already thinking about making a trip out to the west coast, where I've never been and will get to meet another TAMer.


I'm in Canada... Alberta to be exact!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ursula said:


> I'm in Canada... Alberta to be exact!


Hey! I have another long-time online friend who lives in Alberta, and I've always wanted to meet her IRL. Now I have two reasons to go to Alberta.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ursula said:


> In regards to the bolded, me too. Do you remember the personality profile that you and your husband did? If you think of it, please send me the link!


It was an Enneagram test we took through a couples therapist, who helped us go over and interpret the results - and how these results worked for each of us when we interacted. There are a lot of online sites to take the test but the one we took had a LOT more questions than the shortened versions online. The longer tests (more questions/answers) is obviously going to be more accurate.

For instance, and perhaps oddly, both my husband and I are strong leader types but also both have strong caregiver tendencies. 

What this means for us is, for instance, if we have a joint project to do such as...okay, so we're going to retile a floor together...the tendency would be for both of us to be the leader of the project. This would be an area where we might clash because both of us might be vying to be in charge. The solution would be for one of us to say "YOU lead on this project and I will follow" or establish which part of the project either of us would be in charge to do, and the other would follow that leader on that part of the project. We managed to retile the floor in our house together without killing each other. lol

We have found this knowledge to be very helpful - especially the solution.

Insofar as caregiving, if an outsider could see us trying to outdo each other fussing over the other, people would probably laugh. But, in actuality, it was important information - because caregivers also have a hard time LETTING someone else take care of THEM. I'm fine with taking care of my husband but I truly hate him fussing over me. I still struggle with allowing him to even give me a foot rub - because it's receiving but I view it as TAKING. 

And so forth. 

I do recommend doing the test with a professional you trust to walk you through how the test would work for you as an individual. Otherwise, like any test, it could be misinterpreted and you could get hung up on labeling yourself incorrectly. 

Another interesting aspect of this particular test was that there's a flip side to every trait. To explain a little bit...a caregiver type, for instance, (any caregiver type) only has *so* much capacity for caregiving. At some point, the caregiver will reach a limit where they are overloaded and they just can't give any more - and then they become resentful towards give, give, giving - especially when their giving goes unappreciated or they haven't been taking care of themselves enough.

In the past - decades ago - I also did the Briggs Myers test. I found the Enneagram more practical to apply.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> It would be nice if you stuck to the subject at hand. Who said anything about living together? You jump all over the place to defend your position. But since you mentioned it. If your relationship didn't end because of issues in the relationship then why would it end? Something happened to change your relationship ie an issue came up. An issue which apparently talking about it could not resolve it.


I am not going into details because others were involved, but he did something serious and got in trouble with the police. Nothing to do with our relationship.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I do think that sexual compatibility is important - but, at least for me, I'm still not going to jump in the sack with a guy I'm not compatible with in other ways first. I'd be leery of a guy who wanted to jump in the sack too soon. A guy who's not willing to get to know me is probably not willing to get to know the other people he's wanting to jump in the sack with. Please, guys, have some selectivity for the sake of your health.
> 
> I have no idea what it's like to date these days with all these websites matching people up. I would likely go to events and mingle with people and friends and private parties, go to some university classes, etc. To meet quality people, I think it's important to hang out with other quality folks in arenas of interest that hold my interest.
> 
> ...


Agreed, I would have no interest in a man who put any pressure on me to have sex.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ynot said:


> No one has suggested you jump in bed with someone you are not compatible with in other areas. What has been said is that a part of compatibility is sexual compatibility. People who take sex off the table or hold some arbitrary time schedule are doing themselves a disservice, as they will never know the whether they are truly compatible with someone as long as they place portions of themselves and/or their potential partner off limits.


I may be misunderstanding what you mean here so forgive me if I'm not getting your point correctly. However, I don't think that a person who chooses to set a standard for themselves about when they would decide to have sex with a potential LTR partner is doing any kind of disservice to themselves. Sex is important, I agree. But I think where I take issue is that you might be interpreting what I'm saying as an "either you do or you don't" black and white issue - when I am actually saying that it's perfectly fine to hold off on sex until you have done a lot of observation of a person from a lot of different angles - watching and listening to people who actually know the person you are considering...and I mean *know* a person historically, longtime family and friends, people who have known that person and their dating history, etc. 

I'm positive you would agree with me on this: aside from the STI caution we all should have at the forefront of our minds, sexual activity carries the potential of hooking you into that person in a very different way. I don't see sexual activity as a place to dabble - condom up and call it good. It's a serious step and should be treated as a serious step. I'm not saying that only religious people view things this way - but ANY person who is taking care of their emotional and physical health would be wise to be careful here. 

I certainly don't mean that sex should be used wrongly - as some sort of bargaining chip. Please don't interpret my sense of caution in that way (I'm sure that's not what you mean.) But, with some conversation, I think two people can come to an appreciation of why a person would be picky about who they decide to have sex with. A person who is selective would appeal to me a lot more than a person who feels that sex is a freedom to be expressed as often as possible with many partners.

The list of STIs that one can get from multiple partner sex encounters is an ice bath of reality. Hep A, B, C, herpes, crabs, chlamydia, genital warts, Trichomoniasis, syphilis, AIDS, Gonorrhea, Molluscum Contagiosum. Condoms are not absolute protection against STIs. 

You really, really have to trust a confirmed uninfected person to adhere to a monogamous relationship in order to maintain protection against STIs. While I would love a world where there could be lots of fun sex with no negative consequences, that world doesn't exist. 

So, sexual compatibility goes beyond testing the waters with a partner to see if you are sexual compatible with them. The sexual compatibility, to me, means being on the same page with having the same attitudes towards a healthy, protected sex life. I wouldn't have sex at all - no matter how compatible in other areas - with someone who didn't share my values regarding safe sex.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I may be misunderstanding what you mean here so forgive me if I'm not getting your point correctly. However, I don't think that a person who chooses to set a standard for themselves about when they would decide to have sex with a potential LTR partner is doing any kind of disservice to themselves. Sex is important, I agree. But I think where I take issue is that you might be interpreting what I'm saying as an "either you do or you don't" black and white issue - when I am actually saying that it's perfectly fine to hold off on sex until you have done a lot of observation of a person from a lot of different angles - watching and listening to people who actually know the person you are considering...and I mean *know* a person historically, longtime family and friends, people who have known that person and their dating history, etc.
> 
> I'm positive you would agree with me on this: aside from the STI caution we all should have at the forefront of our minds, sexual activity carries the potential of hooking you into that person in a very different way. I don't see sexual activity as a place to dabble - condom up and call it good. It's a serious step and should be treated as a serious step. I'm not saying that only religious people view things this way - but ANY person who is taking care of their emotional and physical health would be wise to be careful here.
> 
> ...


First off, I do not look at anything as a black and white, all or nothing proposition. What I have said is that when a person places ANYTHING off limits they will never get to truly know another person. Regardless of how much they may have talked about it or discusses it. Whatever time frame someone chooses is up to them. As for me, I refuse to allow something that is very important to me go undiscovered until after I legally commit to someone.
Secondly I do not agree with that STIs should be first and foremost in our minds. Anytime you have sex with any person (even one that you carefully vetted first) you have the potential to get an STI from them. When you sleep with one person, you are sleeping with every person they ever slept with. You can narrow your odds of getting an STI but never completely eliminate the risk. The facts about STIs are not what the headlines scream. You have a better chance of being in a car accident, than you do of getting and STI. I refuse to allow fear to dictate my life. 
Thirdly, as others have said, talking about something and doing something are two different things. Especially when one considers that many people are either unaware of what they truly want or are lying to themselves about. The only way to know is to find out.
If you are willing to allow fear of STIs to dictate your actions or subscribe to some social expectations to dictate your life, I am sure you can do so. But I am not so sure you can live a happy fulfilled life by doing so.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ynot said:


> First off, I do not look at anything as a black and white, all or nothing proposition. What I have said is that when a person places ANYTHING off limits they will never get to truly know another person. Regardless of how much they may have talked about it or discusses it. Whatever time frame someone chooses is up to them. As for me, I refuse to allow something that is very important to me go undiscovered until after I legally commit to someone.
> Secondly I do not agree with that STIs should be first and foremost in our minds. Anytime you have sex with any person (even one that you carefully vetted first) you have the potential to get an STI from them. When you sleep with one person, you are sleeping with every person they ever slept with. You can narrow your odds of getting an STI but never completely eliminate the risk. The facts about STIs are not what the headlines scream. You have a better chance of being in a car accident, than you do of getting and STI. I refuse to allow fear to dictate my life.
> Thirdly, as others have said, talking about something and doing something are two different things. Especially when one considers that many people are either unaware of what they truly want or are lying to themselves about. The only way to know is to find out.
> If you are willing to allow fear of STIs to dictate your actions or subscribe to some social expectations to dictate your life, I am sure you can do so. But I am not so sure you can live a happy fulfilled life by doing so.


Yeah, STIs are important to avoid because I value my health. I do live a happy fulfilled life inside a monogamous relationship. I have lots of wonderful sex and orgasms with a man who loves and adores me and treats me with high regard and with whom I have a fun, close and trusting relationship. 

I do have to disagree a bit on your assertion that you have a better chance of being in a car accident than getting an STI. That would be true for me because I don't put myself at risk - but the odds go up greatly for people who have sex with multiple partners without scrutinizing their choices and requiring commitment and testing prior to engaging in sex. Does that sound ridiculous? I pick being viewed as ridiculous over getting herpes, Hep C or HPV and so forth.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> First off, I do not look at anything as a black and white, all or nothing proposition. What I have said is that when a person places ANYTHING off limits they will never get to truly know another person. Regardless of how much they may have talked about it or discusses it. Whatever time frame someone chooses is up to them. As for me, I refuse to allow something that is very important to me go undiscovered until after I legally commit to someone.
> Secondly I do not agree with that STIs should be first and foremost in our minds. Anytime you have sex with any person (even one that you carefully vetted first) you have the potential to get an STI from them. When you sleep with one person, you are sleeping with every person they ever slept with. You can narrow your odds of getting an STI but never completely eliminate the risk. The facts about STIs are not what the headlines scream. You have a better chance of being in a car accident, than you do of getting and STI. I refuse to allow fear to dictate my life.
> Thirdly, as others have said, talking about something and doing something are two different things. Especially when one considers that many people are either unaware of what they truly want or are lying to themselves about. The only way to know is to find out.
> If you are willing to allow fear of STIs to dictate your actions or subscribe to some social expectations to dictate your life, I am sure you can do so. But I am not so sure you can live a happy fulfilled life by doing so.


My husband works in healthcare and says that SDI's are rife. Unless you marry someone who isn't infected and you aren't infected and neither ever has sex with anyone else in that marriage, you are at risk. 
Its just common sense to be aware of that. 

No the only way to know isn't to find out. Its to have good communication. I think that you can get to know someone far better if you avoid sex for that time. Even if you do have sex early, and you seem 'compatable' then, things change, we see that here on the forum. Its no guarantee at all. 

I agree with happiness27, you have to be with someone who has the same attitudes and values regarding sex. For us that was someone who kept sex for marriage and who sees sex as part of a loving, faithful and committed marriage. 

The thought of 'test driving' someone and then rejecting them because they don't live up to your ideal of being 'good at sex', or wanting sex enough, comes across as cruel and unloving.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Yeah, STIs are important to avoid because I value my health. I do live a happy fulfilled life inside a monogamous relationship. I have lots of wonderful sex and orgasms with a man who loves and adores me and treats me with high regard and with whom I have a fun, close and trusting relationship.
> 
> I do have to disagree a bit on your assertion that you have a better chance of being in a car accident than getting an STI. That would be true for me because I don't put myself at risk - but the odds go up greatly for people who have sex with multiple partners without scrutinizing their choices and requiring commitment and testing prior to engaging in sex. Does that sound ridiculous? I pick being viewed as ridiculous over getting herpes, Hep C or HPV and so forth.


I agree that STIs are important to avoid, I value my health probably even more than you do. But you can greatly reduce your risk of catching an STI by doing exactly what I have been saying to do (and which you re-iterated in the post I quoted) namely scrutinizing your potential partners.
FTR, the rates of incidence decrease significantly if one does not engage in penetrative **** sexual acts, share needles, have sex with those that take IV drugs, or even more importantly not engage in sex with the very young (15-24 year olds have the highest rates of infection, accounting for nearly 50% of all new cases every year). The sky is NOT falling. There is no reason for normal heterosexual people to live in abject fear.
Also FTR the odds of being a car accident is approximately 1 in 4 over your lifetime or say 1 in 360 over a typical 80 year life. The odds of dying in car accident is approximately 1 out 84 over your lifetime. In the meantime the odds of catching syphilis is 1 in 8000 in a given year. 
You really should read the facts about STIs and not just the head lines. OTOH I am glad that you happen to be in a monogamous relationship. But some of us are not so lucky and have to try to find one. One way to do that is find out what you want, how you want it, how often you want it and hope you find a partner who is compatible with you. If you are one the lucky few who actually have - congrats. The rest of us do not be scared out of our gourds over such a small risk. Do your due diligence and have fun. There is no need to live in abject fear.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> I agree that STIs are important to avoid, I value my health probably even more than you do. But you can greatly reduce your risk of catching an STI by doing exactly what I have been saying to do (and which you re-iterated in the post I quoted) namely scrutinizing your potential partners.
> FTR, the rates of incidence decrease significantly if one does not engage in penetrative **** sexual acts, share needles, have sex with those that take IV drugs, or even more importantly not engage in sex with the very young (15-24 year olds have the highest rates of infection, accounting for nearly 50% of all new cases every year). The sky is NOT falling. There is no reason for normal heterosexual people to live in abject fear.
> Also FTR the odds of being a car accident is approximately 1 in 4 over your lifetime or say 1 in 360 over a typical 80 year life. The odds of dying in car accident is approximately 1 out 84 over your lifetime. In the meantime the odds of catching syphilis is 1 in 8000 in a given year.
> You really should read the facts about STIs and not just the head lines. OTOH I am glad that you happen to be in a monogamous relationship. But some of us are not so lucky and have to try to find one. One way to do that is find out what you want, how you want it, how often you want it and hope you find a partner who is compatible with you. If you are one the lucky few who actually have - congrats. The rest of us do not be scared out of our gourds over such a small risk. Do your due diligence and have fun. There is no need to live in abject fear.


I didn't hear her say that she lives in abject fear????? Those are you words. Not wanting to have many sexual partners is just common sense. The less you have the less likely you are to catch anything. You mention syphilis, its just one of many STI's. Some cause cancer and others cause infertility. My husband is a scientist who has been in healthcare for over 25 years. One thing he does is study diseases, he said that he was completely shocked when he found out how common these things are, but no one wants to talk about it so its kept quiet.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> My husband works in healthcare and says that SDI's are rife. Unless you marry someone who isn't infected and you aren't infected and neither ever has sex with anyone else in that marriage, you are at risk.
> Its just common sense to be aware of that.
> 
> No the only way to know isn't to find out. Its to have good communication. I think that you can get to know someone far better if you avoid sex for that time. Even if you do have sex early, and you seem 'compatable' then, things change, we see that here on the forum. Its no guarantee at all.
> ...


Your husband is wrong. The rates of STIs are much lower than they ever were and are only "rife" in certain populations, namely the very young, male **** sexuals and IV drug users. For everybody else, they are a risk, but then so is all of life and nobody tells anyone to avoid life do they?
As I have stated any number of times, you do not know until you find out. As one poster has already attested, one may imagine that having sex daily would be their dream come true, but if it would happen that could all change. I do not care who you are, or what you think, whatever you think you know is all based upon your perspective at the time you are thinking it.
Keep on living the cloistered life. The rest of us will live in reality


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I didn't hear her say that she lives in abject fear????? Those are you words. Not wanting to have many sexual partners is just common sense. The less you have the less likely you are to catch anything. You mention syphilis, its just one of many STI's. Some cause cancer and others cause infertility. My husband is a scientist who has been in healthcare for over 25 years. One thing he does is study diseases, he said that he was completely shocked when he found out how common these things are, but no one wants to talk about it so its kept quiet.


When one has STIs first and foremost in her mind (as stated by happiness) that is living in abject fear. It is a consideration I have, but one which is mitigated by a little common sense, such as not having sex with the very young (who account for 50% of the new case of almost every STI), not engaging in male **** sexualism or having sex with IV drug users. Otherwise it is less common than auto accidents.
No one tells everyone else not to drive to avoid auto accidents, no one should be trying to scare others into not having sex because of the off chance they might contract an STI.
I only used syphilis as an example because I do not have time to break down every single individual STI. If you do have at it. I don't.
Finally my son is a doctor who actually practices medicine, his wife is a doctor who actually practices medicine. My daughter is a nurse in NP school who works in medicine. So if you want to talk about science, we will talk about science (which covers many different subjects) you can cite your husband. If you want to talk about medicine then you will need to find a better source than your husband.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Your husband is wrong. The rates of STIs are much lower than they ever were and are only "rife" in certain populations, namely the very young, male **** sexuals and IV drug users. For everybody else, they are a risk, but then so is all of life and nobody tells anyone to avoid life do they?
> As I have stated any number of times, you do not know until you find out. As one poster has already attested, one may imagine that having sex daily would be their dream come true, but if it would happen that could all change. I do not care who you are, or what you think, whatever you think you know is all based upon your perspective at the time you are thinking it.
> Keep on living the cloistered life. The rest of us will live in reality



No he isn't wrong, he has studied it from the actually figures of those who go to the sexual health clinics and what they had caught. 
Yes you can know. The best and happiest marriages I know are between those who waited for marriage. Some in my own family as well as our marriage. Having sex before marriage is NO guarantee at all that you will have a good sex life later on. We see that here time and time again. Far far more important is being on the same page sexually, having the same values and ideas about sex. Communicating and getting to know that person without the complications and distractions of having sex too early on in the relationship. 

My life has been anything but cloistered, but of course you know nothing about it. Just your way of attacking me I guess because I don't agree with you.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> No he isn't wrong he has studied it.
> Yes you can know. The best and happiest marriages I know are between those who waited for marriage. Some in my own family as well as our marriage. Having sex before marriage is NO guarantee at all that you will have a good sex life later on. We see that here time and time again. Far far more important is being on the same page sexually, having the same values and ideas about sex. Communicating and getting to now that person without the complications and distractions of having sex too early on in the relationship.
> 
> My life has been anything but cloistered, but of course you know nothing about it. Just your way of attacking me I guess because I don't agree with you.


My poor misguided friend, it isn't that you disagree me, I could not care any less whether you agree or disagree with me. But what I state are facts. What you state are opinions. Opinions formed in ignorance. I mean ignorance as in uninformed or perhaps a better way is saying ill informed.
No one has ever said that sex before marriage is a guarantee that sex after marriage will be better. Only that it is better to find out first rather than later. It is rather hard to fake enjoying certain acts if one does not enjoy them, which is something you can find out before marriage.
So when you or happiness have something to offer other than your opinions, I will listen. Until then enjoy your cloistered life.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People take risks for all sorts of enjoyable things, like jumping out of airplanes, scuba-diving, driving race cars, etc. STDs are just another risk that people have to accept in order to do something they enjoy.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> My husband works in healthcare and says that SDI's are rife. Unless you marry someone who isn't infected and you aren't infected and neither ever has sex with anyone else in that marriage, you are at risk. Its just common sense to be aware of that.
> 
> *No the only way to know isn't to find out. Its to have good communication.* I think that you can get to know someone far better if you avoid sex for that time. Even if you do have sex early, and you seem 'compatable' then, things change, we see that here on the forum. Its no guarantee at all.
> 
> ...


I do agree with parts of what you say, but as to the bolded, it depends 100% on whether or not a person is being honest with themselves and with the other person. I absolutely agree with you in that being with someone with similar values and attitudes towards not only sex, but everything, is really important. But again, it depends on truthful communication, and a lot of people are not this way. As for "test driving" someone, okay, maybe that's not the most loving way to discover things, but there are some people out there who just don't have the capacity or drive to learn different ways of doing things. If a person marries someone like that, then what? They keep getting divorced? That's not exactly a smart choice either. 

I have some friends who are very devout. They dated their boyfriends for years before getting married, and they were virgins when they got married. They seem to make it work well, unless they're just putting on smiley faces and hiding their misery. Personally, I need to know what I'm getting into. I've been through 1 divorce already, and have no desire to go through another. I do guess that one benefit to waiting for marriage is that you have no baseline. You don't know what else is out there. So, if one waits for marriage, and discovers that her husband is 3 inches erect, she'll probably be happy enough because she has no other experience to base it off of.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its difficult to know. My friends think my wife and I have the *perfect* marriage. No one in the real world has any idea that we have extreme sexual incompatibility and that that has clouded what should have been a wonderful life. Its the sort of problem that many people will never discuss.





Ursula said:


> snip
> 
> I have some friends who are very devout. They dated their boyfriends for years before getting married, and they were virgins when they got married. They seem to make it work well, unless they're just putting on smiley faces and hiding their misery. Personally, I need to know what I'm getting into. I've been through 1 divorce already, and have no desire to go through another.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Okay y'all, let's all take a breath and calm down. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm sure that different professionals in the field all have a little bit of different information on each subject. Plus, stats are constantly changing. Personally, I think that people should live their lives according to what works for them. If you want to have lots of sex with lots of different partners before marriage, go for it; if you want to wait X-number of time before sleeping with your SO, that works too. If you're a wait for marriage kind of person, that's also great if that works for you. In the end, as long as you're happy, and in a relationship that is strong, stable, happy and satisfying for both people, that's what matters!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Its difficult to know. My friends think my wife and I have the *perfect* marriage. No one in the real world has any idea that we have extreme sexual incompatibility and that that has clouded what should have been a wonderful life. Its the sort of problem that many people will never discuss.


The most common thing I heard when my wife decided to leave was how surprised everyone was because they thought we were the perfect couple. No one really knows what is going on in anyone else's marriage, except perhaps the people in it themselves. Many people put on false faces of happiness and contentment because that is what society expects. Overlay with that with some religious zealotry and you can see how much more pressure would be there to put on the happy face and play along.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> My husband works in healthcare and says that SDI's are rife. Unless you marry someone who isn't infected and you aren't infected and neither ever has sex with anyone else in that marriage, you are at risk.
> Its just common sense to be aware of that.
> 
> No the only way to know isn't to find out. Its to have good communication. I think that you can get to know someone far better if you avoid sex for that time. Even if you do have sex early, and you seem 'compatable' then, things change, we see that here on the forum. Its no guarantee at all.
> ...


What you say about virgin-to-virgin being the absolute safest sex is true.

However, I do think that testing can reveal the next safest step. I have ZERO STIs as my testing shows, although I did have mono at 18 and will forever have the Epstein Barr virus, as does 90% of the population since it is spread through ANY mouth-to-mouth kissing - which is why we shouldn't kiss babies on the mouth. 

I think a lot of dating people feel embarrassed to get into too heavy of conversations about sexual precautions beyond condoms, let alone offer and ask for partner testing. That's too bad. There are plenty of people who have divorced or have had spouses pass away who are back in the dating game. Potential sex partners who don't want to clear themselves health wise are no longer potential sex partners to me. 

I know one guy who has been quite sexually active over the years and ended up with Hep C. Yes, it's curable but it's not that easy and the fact remains, he has Hep C. It's a nasty disease that destroys the liver over time - as does Hep A and Hep B. Hep A & B have vaccines now. 

I think when a person removes the denial from their minds - that STIs are somehow "rare" - this introduces a different mindset where being choosy about sex partners makes more sense. 

It takes time to get to know a person well enough to decide if you are a compatible couple - just as it takes time in abstinence to get to a point where testing is accurate enough to clear a person health wise. A couple can take this to whatever degree they decide for themselves. For me, it would be testing...abstinence for six months, then retesting. That would be my standard. If a potential partner didn't want to do that, that's okay, I'm not going to think less of them - I just wouldn't be their full contact sex partner. Oral sex is just as risky as PIV sex and condoms don't provide enough protection IMHO.

But, back to what you were saying about communication - yes...plus...getting to know a person through meeting and getting to know other people who know that person well...watching how that person interacts with other people...seeing how comfortable they are talking about themselves and their sex life attitudes.

Does this throw too much cold water on the dating scene? I know, I know. Count me in as one of the people who wishes there were no STIs and we could happily have sex with other happy-to-have sex people whenever we wanted. But, again, it's just not reality. And I don't relish the idea of getting sick from a preventable life-altering disease. I mean, if you get the disease, you have screwed up your sex life royally forever - so being picky somehow looks a lot more appealing.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Yes you can know. The best and happiest marriages I know are between those who waited for marriage. Some in my own family as well as our marriage. Having sex before marriage is NO guarantee at all that you will have a good sex life later on.


Most people have sex before marriage. If you know a lot of marriages where they waited to have sex, then likely it's because you are in a tight-knit religious community or something where that is a priority. And if that's the case, I would guess that there are lots of other restrictions around marriage. All of those would be a factor in the success of the marriage. For example, I would not be surprised if Mormons had great marriages because their religion is so marriage-specific. It's not because they wait to have sex, it's because they grew up their whole lives with a certain belief system about marriage. For someone who lives in the outside community, waiting until marriage might not be the best thing since they don't also have the other beliefs about marriages that go along with it. It may be hard for them to find a partner in the first place if they expect their partner to wait until marriage, for example.

I would also add that no one really knows anything about how the sexual relationship in their marriage will be in the future. Many of the stories here about sexless marriages started out with passionate marriages. I'm sure all of them also thought that it would always be great and they would always be compatible. But then 5, 7, 10, or whatever years later and it's horrible. 

I always laugh when some celebrity newlyweds write an marriage advice book after only a couple of years. Ha! They're so innocent! Write that book 15 years later after a couple of kids when you really know something.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

wilson said:


> Most people have sex before marriage. If you know a lot of marriages where they waited to have sex, then likely it's because you are in a tight-knit religious community or something where that is a priority. And if that's the case, I would guess that there are lots of other restrictions around marriage. All of those would be a factor in the success of the marriage. For example, I would not be surprised if Mormons had great marriages because their religion is so marriage-specific. It's not because they wait to have sex, it's because they grew up their whole lives with a certain belief system about marriage. For someone who lives in the outside community, waiting until marriage might not be the best thing since they don't also have the other beliefs about marriages that go along with it. It may be hard for them to find a partner in the first place if they expect their partner to wait until marriage, for example.
> 
> I would also add that no one really knows anything about how the sexual relationship in their marriage will be in the future. Many of the stories here about sexless marriages started out with passionate marriages. I'm sure all of them also thought that it would always be great and they would always be compatible. But then 5, 7, 10, or whatever years later and it's horrible.
> 
> I always laugh when some celebrity newlyweds write an marriage advice book after only a couple of years. Ha! They're so innocent! Write that book 15 years later after a couple of kids when you really know something.



wilson has brought up a good point about sex evolving throughout a marriage. Ya know, people evolve and change and many things about them, including their relationships and their sexual attitudes also may change. It's not something you really realize or can even plan for until the changes present themselves and then you have to figure out how to roll with it.

I certainly didn't mean to derail the OPs discussion by going too far off on the sex part of dating. I was really just addressing my own viewpoint of early sex as a part of getting to know someone vs. getting to know someone really well before hopping in the sack. I know the latter isn't very hip or popular - and I'm not trying to inject this viewpoint as a moral stance so much as a health stance. Knowing people now who have failing livers because of contracting Hepatitis C through careless sex or women dealing with the consequences of HPV...it just awaked a reality in me - one where I realized that, sometimes, the discussions about casual sex kind of avoid the part about STIs. It's not a fun topic.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And apparently some people have sex after marriage.


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