# Remorse......



## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

This is my first post here although I've been visiting this sight for about 6 months now. I am at about 20 months past DD (2nd time). There is some great information and perspectives here. The thread that has resonated with me the most is the one below. In particular the ones talking about triggers and remorse. 

As soon as I read section about 6 months ago this I showed it to my WW. I thought what better way to give her some perspective from others views about triggers and remorse. This resonated with me so much in particular the point in the remorse section about..."Actively works to understand why he or she made the choice to have an affair and shares insights with BS" that I explained to my wife it was very important she give this some thought and we talk about it. 

About 3 months ago I explained to my WW that I've not received any feedback on this from her and again re-iterated why it was important to me. Last night I experienced a trigger and well it's not gone well. As I've read in other threads, I've tried not to let it drag me to the past, but admittedly it did to some extent, but in moving past the past and moving to today that I did get stuck on the fact that now 3 months after bringing up the fact she's not spoken to me about it at all. When I brought this up she agreed she's not talked to me about this and when I asked her why she can't tell me.

I feel like I couldn't have made this any easier in terms of pointing her toward a step to help move us forward. But given there has been no discussion on the subject I can't help feel she is not remorseful. I have to believe that while maybe she doesn't have all the answers, 6 months is enough time to have some thoughts on the matter?



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Are you guys in counseling?


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

South Stand said:


> This is my first post here although I've been visiting this sight for about 6 months now. I am at about 20 months past DD (2nd time). There is some great information and perspectives here. The thread that has resonated with me the most is the one below. In particular the ones talking about triggers and remorse.
> 
> As soon as I read section about 6 months ago this I showed it to my WW. I thought what better way to give her some perspective from others views about triggers and remorse. This resonated with me so much in particular the point in the remorse section about..."Actively works to understand why he or she made the choice to have an affair and shares insights with BS" that I explained to my wife it was very important she give this some thought and we talk about it.
> 
> ...



I had similar silence from my wife. The same silence that helped lead to the affair by not dealing with problems or feelings, or whatever, also helps sweep it under the rug. My interpretation is that out wives might feel remorse but they really don't want to face it which in turn means they don't really want to change.

I hated being the one to keep making deep and meaningful conversation happen between us. How do you balance silence without appearing needy and weak? So I eventually just stopped dealing with the relationship and that suited her just fine. 

I have no idea what it would take to get past her affairs. I wonder if her having to face it in front of family and friends or to a therapist in joint consulting would help me. I think I wanted her to confront the reality of her willingness to lie and in a way that exposes that as abnormal --beyond the pale-- such that it causes some break in her that I could see she genuinely wants to be differently and walk away from dealing with the world through lies and manipulation. What I got was silence which in my heart I believe means that the extent of willingness for her to change is restricted to taking more care to avoid being caught in a lie.

I now also believe that forcing her to deal with this in front of family and friends, or even a therapist, though is what she needs, would probably destroy whatever relationship we have left even while it is what she needs to be healthy and happy in the future. 

I am done--divorce is looming before me. I hope you find a way through this but you have to realize people have to want to change, in order to change and that is kind of a rare thing. And it will never happen through your orchestrations, or back breaking support of the relationship. It is very simply a choice for her to make or not to make. Respond appropriately as its your life and happiness you have to lose.


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## Pleaser44 (May 5, 2015)

I'm new to this site, I've used Pleaser44 as I'm a people pleaser, and I'm 44yrs old. 
I've made the HORRIBLE mistake of having the affair in my 10yr marriage. Please know that your wife is ASHAMED to talk about it. she sees the pain in your eyes, and knows it's HER fault. As parents and spouses, we want to make our family happy. I judge myself on how happy my family is. Well, this did NOT make my husband happy, it has crushed him - rightly so. I was lonely, not satisfied/fulfilled in my marriage. I was honest and open about that to my husband, but when I turned away from him / marriage..... I did not show any loyalty / respect towards him or my family. Is this how YOUR wife feels? maybe that will help you to understand why your wife doesn't talk about it???? That is the case for me.
again, maybe this will give you some feedback on how your feels. maybe she is unable to put into words.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

A year and 1/2 ago, after I found out that my fiance cheated on me in the early stages of our exclusive relationship. I made the mistake of being the one to learn about relationships and gave my fiance material on how to help your betrayed partner recover. In other words, I was the one that was doing most of the work. If your spouse was remorseful and desired you very much now, then she would be the active one trying to win back your trust. 

Also, the fact that this is the 2nd time around should also tell you that you are still much too weak. I understand that it is impossible to make good decisions when you are still devastated. It is possible that in the next year, you will finally build enough resentment to realize that you are not going to tolerate her behavior any more. In the meantime, hang in there.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Pleaser44 said:


> I'm new to this site, I've used Pleaser44 as I'm a people pleaser, and I'm 44yrs old.
> I've made the HORRIBLE mistake of having the affair in my 10yr marriage. Please know that your wife is ASHAMED to talk about it. she sees the pain in your eyes, and knows it's HER fault. As parents and spouses, we want to make our family happy. I judge myself on how happy my family is. Well, this did NOT make my husband happy, it has crushed him - rightly so. I was lonely, not satisfied/fulfilled in my marriage. I was honest and open about that to my husband, but when I turned away from him / marriage..... I did not show any loyalty / respect towards him or my family. Is this how YOUR wife feels? maybe that will help you to understand why your wife doesn't talk about it???? That is the case for me.
> again, maybe this will give you some feedback on how your feels. maybe she is unable to put into words.


While this is probably true for at least some broken relationships, if the cheater is unwilling to work very hard to show them they will change, the result is the same as if they just don't care. Love is not what you feel it is expressed by what do for it. Cases can be different but in every case I can think of "true" reconciliation involves some kind of regular communication that directly addresses the betrayal.

Examples:

1. honey, here is my phone password, and I turned alerts on. Look at it whenever you want. I understand.

2. I am working late, here is a picture of me at my desk having a blast finishing the month out.

3. I love Mardi Gras, but because it happened there, I will never go to Mardi Gras again or speak of it.

4. I know we keep separate accounts and take care of our own credit cards, but I want you to have my web passwords. Look at them whenever you want.

5. I told my mom what I did. It felt horrible and seeing her disappointment was almost as painful as seeing yours. I'll never again let people down that I care about.

6. I unfriended a couple guys on Facebook that I knew from college and who hit on me or tried to flirt with me. Some of them I really like, but its not worth jeopardizing what we have.

7. ect...​
If you are not doing a lot of stuff like this, don't expect your spouse to feel like you are sincere. You are only rug sweeping the problem and not dealing with it.

Oh, and if they have to ask or insist on any of this stuff. It does not count as a demonstration of your sincerity.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Pleaser44 said:


> I'm new to this site, I've used Pleaser44 as I'm a people pleaser, and I'm 44yrs old.
> I've made the HORRIBLE mistake of having the affair in my 10yr marriage. Please know that your wife is ASHAMED to talk about it. she sees the pain in your eyes, and knows it's HER fault. As parents and spouses, we want to make our family happy. I judge myself on how happy my family is. Well, this did NOT make my husband happy, it has crushed him - rightly so. I was lonely, not satisfied/fulfilled in my marriage. I was honest and open about that to my husband, but when I turned away from him / marriage..... I did not show any loyalty / respect towards him or my family. Is this how YOUR wife feels? maybe that will help you to understand why your wife doesn't talk about it???? That is the case for me.
> again, maybe this will give you some feedback on how your feels. maybe she is unable to put into words.


With all due respect to you and to the OP's wife, it's not all about you anymore. You've hurt someone in the most traumatizing way possible. You might feel bad about that but what's important now is not how you feel but how you can help your spouse heal. You are most likely correct and the OP's wife is tremendously ashamed but it's not about her anymore, not if she wants to save her marriage. After stabbing your loved one in the back the blood that splattered back on your clothes should be the least of your concerns.


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## Pleaser44 (May 5, 2015)

ScrambledEgss and bfree:
I completely agree with your point of view. I have opened my cell/facebook/gmail account to my husband with NOOOO issues. I don't agree with wife doing it TWICE. Once, a mistake. . . . . 
I also agree, YOU made the mistake, PAY for it - IF your lucky enough that your spouse will give you another chance.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

ScrambledEggs said:


> While this is probably true for at least some broken relationships, if the cheater is unwilling to work very hard to show them they will change, the result is the same as if they just don't care. Love is not what you feel it is expressed by what do for it. Cases can be different but in every case I can think of "true" reconciliation involves some kind of regular communication that directly addresses the betrayal.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


All of this. These types of statements I expected from my husband. Instead he changed passwords, told me what the new ones were when I called him out, then two weeks later he changed them again. Sigh.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Pleaser44 said:


> ScrambledEgss and bfree:
> I completely agree with your point of view. I have opened my cell/facebook/gmail account to my husband with NOOOO issues. I don't agree with wife doing it TWICE. Once, a mistake. . . . .
> I also agree, YOU made the mistake, PAY for it - IF your lucky enough that your spouse will give you another chance.


And that's the big thing I think many disloyal spouses miss. Your husband/wife WANTS to forgive you. They want to be able to trust you, to believe you, to love you without hesitation. If most disloyal spouses showed even a modicum of remorse I think there would be so many more happy endings.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Forgive. Yeah. Trust? Well, up to a point.

But then, who but a religious fanatic gives anyone blind trust?


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Mistake...................:scratchhead:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pleaser44 said:


> I'm new to this site, I've used Pleaser44 as I'm a people pleaser, and I'm 44yrs old.
> 
> I've made the HORRIBLE mistake of having the affair in my 10yr marriage. Please know that your wife is ASHAMED to talk about it. she sees the pain in your eyes, and knows it's HER fault. As parents and spouses, we want to make our family happy. I judge myself on how happy my family is. Well, this did NOT make my husband happy, it has crushed him - rightly so. I was lonely, not satisfied/fulfilled in my marriage. I was honest and open about that to my husband, but when I turned away from him / marriage..... I did not show any loyalty / respect towards him or my family. Is this how YOUR wife feels? maybe that will help you to understand why your wife doesn't talk about it???? That is the case for me.
> 
> again, maybe this will give you some feedback on how your feels. maybe she is unable to put into words.



Respectfully, which of the two do you honestly feel is more intense... her shame or his pain?


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I can understand why she doesn't want to bring up the affair and talk about it because she doesn't want to keep hurting you, but it is important to talked about why she did it and what in your marriage was lacking that led to the affair so it doesn't happen again. You have to fix that. I wouldn't want to hear the gory details if it was a PA. That would just give you bad images in your mind. 

I notice husbands seem to have more problems forgiving their wife for having an affair than wives do. I see posts here from husbands that many years down the road still don't have the trust back, haven't forgiven their wife and now want to divorce. I have a feeling the divorce rate is higher for wives who have affairs than for husbands who do. Women tend to be more forgiving.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I can understand why she doesn't want to bring up the affair and talk about it because she doesn't want to keep hurting you, but it is important to talked about why she did it and what in your marriage was lacking that led to the affair so it doesn't happen again. You have to fix that. I wouldn't want to hear the gory details if it was a PA. That would just give you bad images in your mind.
> 
> I notice husbands seem to have more problems forgiving their wife for having an affair than wives do. I see posts here from husbands that many years down the road still don't have the trust back, haven't forgiven their wife and now want to divorce. I have a feeling the divorce rate is higher for wives who have affairs than for husbands who do. Women tend to be more forgiving.


Cheating is on the cheater. Saying the marriage was lacking is one of many lame excuses. There is something lacking in a cheater that causes them to cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

OP. Two times that you have caught and she isn't taking responsibility to learn, not only to stop f*cking other men, but to do everything in her power to help you heal?

Really doesn't look good.

What are your motivations?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I can understand why she doesn't want to bring up the affair and talk about it because she doesn't want to keep hurting you, but it is important to talked about why she did it and what in your marriage was lacking that led to the affair so it doesn't happen again. You have to fix that. I wouldn't want to hear the gory details if it was a PA. That would just give you bad images in your mind.
> 
> I notice husbands seem to have more problems forgiving their wife for having an affair than wives do. I see posts here from husbands that many years down the road still don't have the trust back, haven't forgiven their wife and now want to divorce. I have a feeling the divorce rate is higher for wives who have affairs than for husbands who do. Women tend to be more forgiving.


then perhaps this is an area where women should learn from men - on how to handle betrayal. Why forgive betrayal?


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

Its the middle of the night and I can't sleep. Thought I would read some more posts to gather some thoughts. I didn't have to look far. The responses posted are so insightful. Some comments thoughts:

We were in couples counseling (my idea) for about six months a couple months after DD and my WW has been in individual counseling (my idea) for the about the last six months.

ScrambledEggs

I totally can relate to you. I have some deep concerns that I feel like I am the one that initiates any meaningful conversation and agree that people have to want to change because they want to, no because someone else does. I'm trying to give every possible chance for this to happen... and show remorse, but the longer it goes I feel the less chance there is. 

And I totally get your 2nd post. This is exactly what I am on about. I would feel sooooo much better if she came to me with something like this on her own.

Good luck to you with D. I hope the process is not too painful, and hopefully made easier by having a direction to move in.

Pleaser44

You bring an interesting perspective to this. I believe what you are saying is how my wife feels in some respect, however this is not translating to remorse via actions and not talking about it going to lead down the same path. 

ScrambledEggs is spot on in my opinion. You can feel what you feel but if you don't communicate it via meaningful "actions" it doesn't how is the BS supposed to know and feel it?

Badaboom
I totally understand your expectation here. Sorry for the results.

Bfree
Some good perspective. I know in my case if the WS showed some remorse we would be much further down the path towards a happy ending.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> OP. *Two times that you have caught* and she isn't taking responsibility to learn, not only to stop f*cking other men, but to do everything in her power to help you heal?
> 
> Really doesn't look good.
> 
> What are your motivations?


I'm not clear on whether OP meant to say that his wife cheated twice or that -- perhaps due to trickle-truth -- he had two D-Days.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I can understand why she doesn't want to bring up the affair and talk about it because she doesn't want to keep hurting you, but it is important to talked about why she did it and what in your marriage was lacking that led to the affair so it doesn't happen again. You have to fix that. I wouldn't want to hear the gory details if it was a PA. That would just give you bad images in your mind.
> 
> I notice husbands seem to have more problems forgiving their wife for having an affair than wives do. I see posts here from husbands that many years down the road still don't have the trust back, haven't forgiven their wife and now want to divorce. I have a feeling the divorce rate is higher for wives who have affairs than for husbands who do. *Women tend to be more forgiving.*





nuclearnightmare said:


> then perhaps this is an area where women should learn from men - on how to handle betrayal. Why forgive betrayal?


IMO it's more complicated than that, and there are many reasons for it.

That said, I'm personally of the belief that, if more BWs were on equal financial footing w/ their respective WHs, there would be much less forgiveness extended from the former group to the latter group.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Respectfully, which of the two do you honestly feel is more intense... her shame or his pain?


This is a great question. I wish I could be in her shoes for a day to have some other perspective. 

What I do know is I have shared and shown my pain.....


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

Steve1000 said:


> A year and 1/2 ago, after I found out that my fiance cheated on me in the early stages of our exclusive relationship. I made the mistake of being the one to learn about relationships and gave my fiance material on how to help your betrayed partner recover. In other words, I was the one that was doing most of the work. If your spouse was remorseful and desired you very much now, then she would be the active one trying to win back your trust.
> 
> Also, the fact that this is the 2nd time around should also tell you that you are still much too weak. I understand that it is impossible to make good decisions when you are still devastated. It is possible that in the next year, you will finally build enough resentment to realize that you are not going to tolerate her behavior any more. In the meantime, hang in there.


Thanks for your post. Maybe I am weak. I'm sure others have read this and thought that. After DD we separated for 6 months (I initiated) thinking she would have some time away to reflect at take a good hard look. During this time we were in counseling and things progressed to the point where we got back together.... but well here I am.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Cheating is on the cheater. Saying the marriage was lacking is one of many lame excuses. There is something lacking in a cheater that causes them to cheat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is really simplistic and not true. I cheated but I'm not a "cheater" it doesn't define who I am. People make mistakes all the time. If you continue to judge yourself by your mistake you'll go crazy. I'm positive you've made mistakes in your life.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

South Stand said:


> I feel like I couldn't have made this any easier in terms of pointing her toward a step to help move us forward. But given there has been no discussion on the subject I can't help feel she is not remorseful. I have to believe that while maybe she doesn't have all the answers, 6 months is enough time to have some thoughts on the matter?
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


My question, my man, is why did it take you this long to figure out she's not remorseful and she's not interested in talking to you about it; not that she's afraid she'll hurt you or that she doesn't want to face "what's she done". She just doesn't want to deal with explaining her actions to you and hear you complaining about her not being remorseful. 
Here's the thing Dawg. To be remorseful you actually have to be sorry for what you done. She's not. If she got crossways of one her friends, do you think it would take her six months and a reminder from them that she needed to make things right?


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I can understand why she doesn't want to bring up the affair and talk about it because she doesn't want to keep hurting you, but it is important to talked about why she did it and what in your marriage was lacking that led to the affair so it doesn't happen again. You have to fix that. I wouldn't want to hear the gory details if it was a PA. That would just give you bad images in your mind.
> 
> I notice husbands seem to have more problems forgiving their wife for having an affair than wives do. I see posts here from husbands that many years down the road still don't have the trust back, haven't forgiven their wife and now want to divorce. I have a feeling the divorce rate is higher for wives who have affairs than for husbands who do. Women tend to be more forgiving.


I know a lot about the affair. My gut feeling led to me find out a lot of details including it was a PA. So I'm not sure how much more I could be hurt. I feel I comfortably in our communication about the details. Where things are off the rails is moving past that point. 

I hear your comment about talking about what led to the affair. I am in full agreement there are two people that own the marriage up to the affair. My feeling is that I'll never get to that point and if I do how honest the conversation will be when my WW doesn't show, in my opinion, the remorse I need to see.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

have you asked for a written timeline of the A or A's?

Maybe she does better with writing things out rather than speaking.

Do you have kids? you can't fix this by yourself. If both of you do not work together, you will not get thru this mess.

Have you tried counseling, because she does not respond to having her read some things, so I did not think about having her read more books would get thru to her.

Has she stopped all contact and has she given you all of her passwords?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Brigit said:


> That is really simplistic and not true.


And yet it is.

Look, if a given marriage is crappy, then that's (generally speaking) the fault of _both_ spouses in the marriage. And, while the mantra around here is that it's 50/50, that's actually probably seldom the case.

The decision to cheat, however, is _always_ on the wayward spouse.

Now... can the marriage have been so crappy that the wayward was somehow more likely to cheat than he or she would've been had the marriage been on more solid footing...? Yes, absolutely.



Brigit said:


> I cheated but I'm not a "cheater" it doesn't define who I am.


Only if you let it. Don't!

:smthumbup:



Brigit said:


> People make mistakes all the time.


That's true, but one mistake isn't quite the same as another.



Brigit said:


> If you continue to judge yourself by your mistake you'll go crazy.


Also true. But don't forget that it was a mistake, lest you repeat it.



Brigit said:


> I'm positive you've made mistakes in your life.


Again, let's not pretend that one mistake is on equal footing w/ another. After all, the commission of infidelity isn't quite the same as forgetting to bring the trash cans up for pickup.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Brigit said:


> That is really simplistic and not true. I cheated but I'm not a "cheater" it doesn't define who I am. People make mistakes all the time. If you continue to judge yourself by your mistake you'll go crazy. I'm positive you've made mistakes in your life.


Blaming anything but yourself for your choices is simplistic and childish.

Unless you have done hard work to change, then you are still a cheater.

Making crappy choices doesn't have to define you if you change.

Making crappy choices will define who you are if you don't change your behavior.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

How do you put a knife in someones back by mistake? Ooppps...?


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## Augusto (Aug 14, 2013)

South Stand said:


> This is my first post here although I've been visiting this sight for about 6 months now. I am at about 20 months past DD (2nd time). There is some great information and perspectives here. The thread that has resonated with me the most is the one below. In particular the ones talking about triggers and remorse.
> 
> As soon as I read section about 6 months ago this I showed it to my WW. I thought what better way to give her some perspective from others views about triggers and remorse. This resonated with me so much in particular the point in the remorse section about..."Actively works to understand why he or she made the choice to have an affair and shares insights with BS" that I explained to my wife it was very important she give this some thought and we talk about it.
> 
> ...


I sense some rug sweeping here by her and you. Don't let it become a mound!!!!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. I have made many crappy choices, never cheated, but I have realized them and changed my behavior.

I sincerely hope anyone who has cheated changes into a better human being for there own sake as well as others.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it's the rare cheater who actually understands that he/she must become an open book that shows remorse and is willing to do what the BS says is necessary to reconcile.

From what I've read and experienced, the majority of WS's decide for themselves that they simply won't give the BS what he/she states is necessary. Reasons for this are many, I think. The WS can mentally overrule the BS, tacitly deciding that a different approach is superior, or the WS could stand on pride and decide that he/she simply won't be told what to do. Sure, shame is an element, but if the WS had the right empathy, that wouldn't be a deterrent.

Your WW may or may not feel some remorse, OP. Given her overt apathy, it's hard to tell what's motivating her. In my opinion, you at least can believe that she doesn't want you to tell her what to do. Until she figures out that she isn't in control here, she won't reach a point of true remorse and reconciliation.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> And yet it is.
> 
> Look, if a given marriage is crappy, then that's (generally speaking) the fault of _both_ spouses in the marriage. And, while the mantra around here is that it's 50/50, that's actually probably seldom the case.
> 
> ...


I don't want to hijack this thread because it's not about me but is about "Remorse" which is what caught my eye. When I said people make mistakes I was referring to the big bad ones not the silly little ones. And I joined TAM to help keep me in check as part of my recovery because it's not a mistake I want to repeat.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Blaming anything but yourself for your choices is simplistic and childish.
> 
> Unless you have done hard work to change, then you are still a cheater.
> 
> ...


True enough which is why my first thread here was called "Changing Behavior."

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/263842-changing-behavior.html

Again. This thread isn't about me. It's about remorse. Unless you have Antisocial Personality Disorder and you don't have a conscience you will feel remorse for things you've done that you know you shouldn't. During and after an affair people feel a lot of shame. It makes you feel sick inside.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Brigit said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread because it's not about me but is about "Remorse" which is what caught my eye. When I said people make mistakes I was referring to the big bad ones not the silly little ones. *And I joined TAM to help keep me in check as part of my recovery because it's not a mistake I want to repeat.*


I get that. And, having read your thread, I believe you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Brigit said:


> True enough which is why my first thread here was called "Changing Behavior."
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/263842-changing-behavior.html
> 
> Again. This thread isn't about me. It's about remorse. Unless you have Antisocial Personality Disorder and you don't have a conscience you will feel remorse for things you've done that you know you shouldn't. During and after an affair people feel a lot of shame. It makes you feel sick inside.


 I believe this thread is about the acts of showing remorse. I agree, mostly, about what cheaters feel at least when they are caught but true remorse is taking responsibility for your choices and working, not feeling, to show change.

Our original disagreement was because I didn't blame the marriage for the cheating but the cheater. I think anyway.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Brigit said:


> True enough which is why my first thread here was called "Changing Behavior."
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/263842-changing-behavior.html
> 
> Again. This thread isn't about me. It's about remorse. Unless you have Antisocial Personality Disorder and you don't have a conscience you will feel remorse for things you've done that you know you shouldn't. During and after an affair people feel a lot of shame. It makes you feel sick inside.


FWIW, many (you'll note that this stops well short of proclaiming MOST) waywards don't feel any shame at all. Before, during, after... doesn't matter.

It's a shame.





Lame pun intended.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> FWIW, many (you'll note that this stops well short of proclaiming MOST) waywards don't feel any shame at all. Before, during, after... doesn't matter.
> 
> It's a shame.
> 
> ...


I doubt that. Most little girls dream of meeting & marrying the handsome prince and living in a Castle. When you get into your late teens you're looking at Brides Magazine. By the time you hit 20 you already have an idea of what your wedding dress will look like and what kind of engagement ring you want. 

No girl dreams of getting married and then having an affair. 

Not one.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Brigit said:


> I doubt that.


Welcome to TAM. Keep reading. 



Brigit said:


> Most little girls dream of meeting & marrying the handsome prince and living in a Castle. When you get into your late teens you're looking at Brides Magazine. By the time you hit 20 you already have an idea of what your wedding dress will look like and what kind of engagement ring you want.
> 
> No girl dreams of getting married and then having an affair.
> 
> Not one.


As a little boy, I wanted to be a police officer, firefighter, doctor, lawyer, He-Man, the Lone Ranger, teacher, Superman, and Captain America all rolled into one. I suspect that the same is true for many of the men here on this forum, and whether they've been a BS, WS, neither, or both.

Children don't cheat on their spouses -- men and women do. And, in doing so, they tend to behave rather _like_ children.

Ironic, isn't it?


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Welcome to TAM. Keep reading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...sorry your dreams of becoming Captain America didn't work out. 


My point was the little girl never grows out of the dream. When that dream begins to crumble sometimes we do act selfish and childish acts to escape the pain.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Brigit said:


> ...sorry your dreams of becoming Captain America didn't work out.


Have you seen my watch?!?















Brigit said:


> My point was the little girl never grows out of the dream. When that dream begins to crumble sometimes we do act selfish and childish acts to escape the pain.


You seem like a good person. Seriously.

But, just as BS's can sometimes (and unfairly) project their anger onto the situations of others, I think that you're projecting your nature onto that of others.

It's a shame, really. Most people really do suck.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Brigit said:


> I doubt that.



Look at this board. This is not the "betrayed spouses forum" This is the " I need to fix my freaking marriage forum." The betrayed outnumber the WSs here by something like ten to one. Obviously there at least as many WS out there as BS so what are the WS doing with their energy? Looking for their next date? 

You are a rare exception--the one that proves the rule Gus mentioned about shame. People cheat because they make the choice to and you are working harder than most to make sure that does not happen which sets you apart from most that have cheated.

It would be so easy and is tempting to redirect a bunch of anger at you over my wife affairs, but the truth is, if she where here as you are, we would be on the mend.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Have you seen my watch?!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice watch 

It's true, I can't speak for every woman who has an affair. I'm basically thinking back to my single days and the stuff me and my friends talked about. It was all about elaborate Wedding plans and what kind of guy do you want to marry and what kind of house do you want and who wants kids...etc.

Very typical girl stuff. That's all I'm saying.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Here's the thing about crappy marriages and the women in them. It ain't the crappy marriage that causes a woman to have an affair. Its the loss of romantic interest in their husbands. (albeit a crappy marriage can cause a loss in romantic interest, but not necessarily so.) The common denominator among virtually all women that cheat is a low romantic interest in their mate before the affair.. 
Again, I invite women to show me where I'm wrong.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

South Stand said:


> My feeling is that I'll never get to that point and if I do how honest the conversation will be when my WW doesn't show, in my opinion, the remorse I need to see.


 You want her to express something that she does not really feel, remorse. To feel remorse she would need to care about your feelings over her own, and that is just not how she is wired.

You have asked for it, you have spelled it out for her, but in the end she just does not feel it. The bottom line is that she is not sorry that she did it, she is only sorry that she got caught. In her mind the affair was worth it, as she got to experience it with no real long term repercussions. She takes your forgiveness as a given, and will even start to get angry when you try to bring it up. If you believe in and expect monogamy in your marriage, then with her remorseless attitude toward her affair, she is not good wife material for you, as she is very likely to cheat again. 

You are in what is called false reconciliation. Sorry, but that is just what her attitude means.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I can understand why she doesn't want *to bring up the affair and talk about it because she doesn't want to keep hurting you*, ...


I'm not so sure the intent is to NOT hurt you further. A lot of times it is to avoid the uncomfortable fallout for their crappy behavior.

Be careful, and watch for which is it.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing about crappy marriages and the women in them. It ain't the crappy marriage that causes a woman to have an affair. Its the loss of romantic interest in their husbands. (albeit a crappy marriage can cause a loss in romantic interest, but not necessarily so.) The common denominator among virtually all women that cheat is a low romantic interest in their mate before the affair..
> Again, I invite women to show me where I'm wrong.


Can't the same thing also be said of virtually all men who cheat?

My STBXH had certainly lost all romantic interest in me prior to checking out of our marriage and commencing an affair. I don't think it was just a matter of his wanting to be romantically loved by someone - he wanted to feel romantically interested in someone again, too.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Brigit said:


> Nice watch
> 
> It's true, *I can't speak for every woman who has an affair.* I'm basically thinking back to my single days and the stuff me and my friends talked about. It was all about elaborate Wedding plans and what kind of guy do you want to marry and what kind of house do you want and who wants kids...etc.
> 
> Very typical girl stuff. That's all I'm saying.


Just so we're clear, none of my previous comments have been geared solely toward wayward _wives_. After all, men engage in affairs just as often as women.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> IMO it's more complicated than that, and there are many reasons for it.
> 
> That said, I'm personally of the belief that, if more BWs were on equal financial footing w/ their respective WHs, there would be much less forgiveness extended from the former group to the latter group.


Agree. In fact, if money were not a factor in our lives, we would all divorce quicker and with less thought.

But there are complicated dynamics in relationships.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> I'm not clear on whether OP meant to say that his wife cheated twice or that -- perhaps due to trickle-truth -- he had two D-Days.


I have had 2 D Days. The first was over 10 years ago.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

South Stand said:


> I have had 2 D Days. The first was over 10 years ago.


Ah... I see. It's time for divorce papers, IMO.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Nomorebeans said:


> Can't the same thing also be said of virtually all men who cheat?


True. You don't cheat on someone you're crazy in love with.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> OP. Two times that you have caught and she isn't taking responsibility to learn, not only to stop f*cking other men, but to do everything in her power to help you heal?
> 
> Really doesn't look good.
> 
> ...


My motivations are to live up to my vow and try and make this work. While clearly she has strayed and not a quality I am fond of, she does have other qualities that drew me to her in the first place that I still am fond of. That said its becoming harder by the day to recognize that when I am not feeling the signs of remorse.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> FWIW, many (you'll note that this stops well short of proclaiming MOST) waywards don't feel any shame at all. Before, during, after... doesn't matter.
> 
> It's a shame.
> 
> ...


I do disagree to an extent about the feeling of shame. I think many do feel a great deal of shame what they cant seem to do is face the shame in themselves. They blame, they redirect and they avoid to not deal with it. 

Shame, embarrassment, owning your decisions all come with a price and that is dropping walls of protection. You become vulnerable.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

South Stand said:


> My motivations are to live up to my vow and try and make this work. While clearly she has strayed and not a quality I am fond of, she does have other qualities that drew me to her in the first place that I still am fond of. That said its becoming harder by the day to recognize that when I am not feeling the signs of remorse.


How did you handle it the first time? Did she avoid it then also?


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

South Stand said:


> My motivations are to live up to my vow and try and make this work. While clearly she has strayed and not a quality I am fond of, she does have other qualities that drew me to her in the first place that I still am fond of. That said its becoming harder by the day to recognize that when I am not feeling the signs of remorse.


I have to agree with Gus. The 10 years ago plus the no remorse means it is only a matter of time before she does it again. What could possibly happen and what could she say that will allow you trust her at this point? Maybe the self policing behavior I described before but it should be perfectly clear to you that is not going to happen. I am in the same boat and my wife won't change for anybody, not even me, even though in her way I do think she believes she cares for me. She just has no idea what that really means.

Look I get it. It is hard. I let my marriage go on much longer than I should considering the facts of my case. But I hold on, I fight, even when I am the only one fighting. I am an expert white knight and fixer. And I read a lot of familiarity in your posts to my story. You are a thoughtful and rational guy that generally does not take cr4p from anyone. And we do this not because we are weak but perhaps we are strongly stubborn and the relationship--she-- really does matter to us despite how impossible it is.

I know you have to come to a conclusion in this in your own way and when you are ready you will feel it as the right thing to do. It won't be born of hate or vengeance, or whatever, it will just be so you can have a chance at happiness in this short ass life we all have. But what other conclusion to all this can there be?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Is there full transparency on her part?


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

South Stand said:


> My motivations are to live up to my vow and try and make this work. While clearly she has strayed and not a quality I am fond of, she does have other qualities that drew me to her in the first place that I still am fond of. That said its becoming harder by the day to recognize that when I am not feeling the signs of remorse.


The leaves are turning brown and falling off the tree, how do you think that will end?

Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy, the status quo may be as good as it gets, then what?

Is she trying to avoid further consequences?
Does she realize she will want to cheat again?
Is she trying to keep her "power" in the relationship (at your expense)?
Does she realize the cost and work it would involve if she were remorseful and not want to be in that situation?


Its the corollary of trickle truth, trickle remorse!
You have to fight for every ounce you get.

Maybe she will wake up, I wish you well.
Take care!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

South Stand said:


> I have had 2 D Days. The first was over 10 years ago.


Not over Dawg. Turns out it was the basis for history to repeat itself. Who knows how many times you just don't know about. Sounds like you've got a tiger by the tail. You may think you'd lose a lot by ditching her. Most think it would be worth the lose. 
Replacing her with another is simply replacing personalities to one that's on the same wave link as you. Like with men, the rest functions basically the same way.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

South Stand said:


> My motivations are to live up to my vow and try and make this work. While clearly she has strayed and not a quality I am fond of, she does have other qualities that drew me to her in the first place that I still am fond of. That said its becoming harder by the day to recognize that when I am not feeling the signs of remorse.


Here's the thing, SS...

Your desire to hold true to your vows can't possibly overcome or even match your wife's apparent lack of regard -- or even outright disdain -- for her own.

I'd also point out that _one of the single most obvious signs of a truly remorseful wayward would be *an unwillingness to engage in a second affair*._ And that's assuming that there were only two... which is probably unlikely.

It's time to put a fork in your marriage. Sorry man.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

honcho said:


> I do disagree to an extent about the feeling of shame. I think many do feel a great deal of shame what they cant seem to do is face the shame in themselves. They blame, they redirect and they avoid to not deal with it.
> 
> Shame, embarrassment, owning your decisions all come with a price and that is dropping walls of protection. You become vulnerable.


I didn't say "waywards feel no shame or remorse" or "most waywards feel no shame or remorse", only that many (IOW, some of them) do not.

And you're right... it's probably pretty likely that, while a great many don't outwardly show it, they feel _at least some_ shame and remorse for their actions.

But the absolute telltale sign of a TRULY remorseful wayward is both the ability AND willingness to divest himself or herself of his/her pride and openly acknowledge, proclaim, and share his or her shame and remorse... and all w/o either direct or indirect prompting from his or her wayward to do so.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Brigit said:


> True enough which is why my first thread here was called "Changing Behavior."
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/263842-changing-behavior.html
> 
> Again. This thread isn't about me. It's about remorse. Unless you have Antisocial Personality Disorder and you don't have a conscience you will feel remorse for things you've done that you know you shouldn't. During and after an affair people feel a lot of shame. It makes you feel sick inside.


One might be able to alter behavior, but they still have the same propensities are are the same person.

Like an alcoholic who doesn't drink.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Brigit said:


> My point was the little girl never grows out of the dream. When that dream begins to crumble sometimes we do act selfish and childish acts to escape the pain.


The person chooses to act selfish. It's not a mistake.

Cheating is a choice...a sequence of deliberately thought out actions where various possible outcomes are weighed and considered. 

A mistake is most often an accident when the action is not thought out...like grabbing the wrong size blouse off the rack, or not reading a recipe closely enough and putting three tablespoons of an ingredient in a dish instead of three teaspoons. 

To call a selfish act like cheating on your spouse a "mistake" is...well....selfish.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> IMO it's more complicated than that, and there are many reasons for it.
> 
> That said, I'm personally of the belief that, if more BWs were on equal financial footing w/ their respective WHs, there would be much less forgiveness extended from the former group to the latter group.



I agree, all too often the financial power lies with the male as the W has given up her career, financial independence to raise kids and support his career. The irony is then he does the dirty on her and she is left high and dry, damned if she stays and damned if she goes. Not an easy choice.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

South Stand said:


> I have had 2 D Days. The first was over 10 years ago.


 2 affairs means that your wife is a serial cheater that does not honor or respect her marriage vows. Worse yet, since studies show that most affairs go undetected by the cheater's spouse, odds are that there were more than just 2 affairs.



South Stand said:


> My motivations are to live up to my vow and try and make this work.


 Marriage vows are like peace treaties, unless both parties honor it, you do not really have one.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

ScrambledEggs said:


> I know you have to come to a conclusion in this in your own way and when you are ready you will feel it as the right thing to do. It won't be born of hate or vengeance, or whatever, it will just be so you can have a chance at happiness in this short ass life we all have. But what other conclusion to all this can there be?


I couldn't agree with this more. I am not one to act quickly, but have realized I only have 1 life to live and if there is no hope for it to move toward R in a positive and meaningful way then I will look for happiness elsewhere.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

Again there are some very informative and thought provoking responses here. It's so helpful to hear outside perspective on my situation from people in various situations, some similar to mine. Thank you all for your comments.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

ScrambledEggs said:


> Look at this board. This is not the "betrayed spouses forum" This is the " I need to fix my freaking marriage forum." The betrayed outnumber the WSs here by something like ten to one. Obviously there at least as many WS out there as BS so what are the WS doing with their energy? Looking for their next date?
> 
> You are a rare exception--the one that proves the rule Gus mentioned about shame. People cheat because they make the choice to and you are working harder than most to make sure that does not happen which sets you apart from most that have cheated.
> 
> It would be so easy and is tempting to redirect a bunch of anger at you over my wife affairs, but the truth is, if she where here as you are, we would be on the mend.


I'm sorry your wife cheated on you and thank you for having the insight not to take it out on me which you can easily do. 

I think the reason why most people who have cheated on their spouse don't come here is out of fear. It's scary and humiliating to tell a bunch of people on the internet that you did a really bad thing. I decided to tell my story because if I surround myself with those that were betrayed it will help keep me focused on other peoples feelings and help me change.

Men and women are different especially when it comes to sexual promiscuity. When a man cheats it might very well be just about sex and feeding his ego. But for women it's different. When a group of single girls go out to a club they don't think "I hope I get laid" they think "I hope I meet my future husband." Maybe that's why it's harder for men to forgive their wives who cheated because they know it wasn't just about sex.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> One might be able to alter behavior, but they still have the same propensities are are the same person.
> 
> Like an alcoholic who doesn't drink.


I agree. One must know their weaknesses and be watchful for any signs of relapse.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

South Stand said:


> I couldn't agree with this more. I am not one to act quickly, but have realized I only have 1 life to live and if there is no hope for it to move toward R in a positive and meaningful way then I will look for happiness elsewhere.


I think you know in your gut if she wants out of the marriage. Most people can tell when they're not wanted anymore. It feels cold and confusing. If this is how you're feeling then you should divorce.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Brigit said:


> .
> 
> Men and women are different especially when it comes to sexual promiscuity. When a man cheats it might very well be just about sex and feeding his ego. But for women it's different. When a group of single girls go out to a club they don't think "I hope I get laid" they think "I hope I meet my future husband." Maybe that's why it's harder for men to forgive their wives who cheated because they know it wasn't just about sex.


This is extremely insightful and a point that needs to be remembered when considering reconciliation.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I can understand why she doesn't want to bring up the affair and talk about it because she doesn't want to keep hurting you, but it is important to talked about why she did it and what in your marriage was lacking that led to the affair so it doesn't happen again. You have to fix that. I wouldn't want to hear the gory details if it was a PA. That would just give you bad images in your mind.
> 
> I notice husbands seem to have more problems forgiving their wife for having an affair than wives do. I see posts here from husbands that many years down the road still don't have the trust back, haven't forgiven their wife and now want to divorce. I have a feeling the divorce rate is higher for wives who have affairs than for husbands who do. Women tend to be more forgiving.


I think this is correct. Supposedly, according to various infidelity statistics, 30-35% of marriages survive infidelity. I read in an article if a husband cheats, 45% of wives will take her husband back. I think that subtracting that number from the averages means only about 15% of men are willing t reconcile.

Oddly, its reported that 80% of couples respond that they wish they would have reconciled instead of divorced because of adultery.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> I think this is correct. Supposedly, according to various infidelity statistics, 30-35% of marriages survive infidelity. I read in an article if a husband cheats, 45% of wives will take her husband back. I think that subtracting that number from the averages means only about 15% of men are willing t reconcile.


I'd have sworn that I read somewhere that the statistics re: BWs choosing to reconcile was somewhere closer to 70%.



Chaparral said:


> Oddly, its reported that 80% of couples respond that they wish they would have reconciled instead of divorced because of adultery.


Would have or could have? There is a difference.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

Brigit said:


> I'm sorry your wife cheated on you and thank you for having the insight not to take it out on me which you can easily do.
> 
> I think the reason why most people who have cheated on their spouse don't come here is out of fear. It's scary and humiliating to tell a bunch of people on the internet that you did a really bad thing. I decided to tell my story because if I surround myself with those that were betrayed it will help keep me focused on other peoples feelings and help me change.
> 
> Men and women are different especially when it comes to sexual promiscuity. When a man cheats it might very well be just about sex and feeding his ego. But for women it's different. When a group of single girls go out to a club they don't think "I hope I get laid" they think "I hope I meet my future husband." Maybe that's why it's harder for men to forgive their wives who cheated because they know it wasn't just about sex.


I applaud you for telling your story and being here and the reasons you stay here. It is encouraging to see WS open themselves up to this environment. Unfortunately, even after pointing my WS to this site, it appears she is content on progress with the resources she feels most comfortable rather than feeling uncomfortable at times. I feel we would be so much further down the path of a true R. I often try to put myself in her shoes so to speak to try and understand things from the other perspective which is why I appreciate comments from WS's like yourself. 

In any case, I am not sure I follow the connection between a man cheating and single women looking for a future husband. I have told my WW numerous times that while it may have been difficult to hear at the time, I would have understood if she told me she needed to leave the marriage because I was not the future husband she dreamed of I could accept that. While it may have not been enjoyable hearing it, it far out weighs the path she took. If she chose the former path there would be no need to forgive only reflection on my part about what I could have done.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

This may or may not help, the important thing is to read it and discuss it together, not just hand it over and expect a miracle. Print it off and good luck. I just do not think most waywards simply can help that much with out a road map. 

The Wayward Spouse instructions

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.
*


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

Maybe this is a sign. I was just reading this very same thing for the first time from a link I saw in a different thread. Thanks for sharing. This is a great bit of information.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Brigit said:


> I think you know in your gut if she wants out of the marriage. Most people can tell when they're not wanted anymore. It feels cold and confusing. If this is how you're feeling then you should divorce.


 I respectfully disagree with this logic of trying to figure out if the cheater wants to continue with the marriage. The truth is that most cheaters do not want out of the marriage, so that is not usually the issue. The real issue is really trying to figure out if the cheater considers cheating to be a bad enough thing that they will feel remorseful enough not to repeat doing in the future. If the OP's wife is a serial cheater that wants to stay in the marriage, but is not firmly committed to being faithful, then the OP has to decide if the OP is willing to be a cuckold in order to stay in the marriage. Some betrayed spouses that are married to serial cheaters, decide that they want to stay in the marriage badly enough to look the other way knowing full well that their spouse will cheat again. Is the OP such a person, I do not know. Again, at this point it is not about what the cheater wants. It is about what the OP wants.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I'm coming in totally late but wanted to give my $0.02 as a BS of a betraying wife (well, ex wife).

My wife didn't want to talk about it either. Why? She loved every second of it and was sorry it ended. This guy was her rich wonderlust that was going to provide for her a luxurious lifestyle. She just didn't see why she should tell me anything. It was exciting, it was risky but now it was over. She just wanted to move forward.

The other point is that who really knows why she doesn't want to discuss it with you. She may be ashamed. She may simply not care. She may not want to hurt you. She may just want to treasure the moments with him to herself. Or...

It is natural for you to want to know and it can help in healing. Apparently she isn't all that concerned about that either or she would otherwise open up. 

One last thought- Trust. 

I saw that word mentioned somewhere in this thread. Trust is gone. Period. Oh sure, maybe she will allow you to check up on her for a while, but that isn't trust and it doesn't build trust. It may possibly build a faux trust, but genuine trust is simply gone. If you'd like more of an explanation on this I would be happy to do so, but will leave it here for now as I think it speaks for itself.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> Thatbpguy - did it take a long time for you to clearly see she would not R? Was she surprised by the outcome?


She offered some excuses and we tried to R. Then she got bf #2 (whom I beat on when I found him in my house). She had more excuses (depression...) and begged for another chance. Did so. Even left my career jb and moved closer to her family for her support. Within a couple years she had bf #3 and that ended it.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Brigit said:


> I think the reason why most people who have cheated on their spouse don't come here is out of fear. It's scary and humiliating to tell a bunch of people on the internet that you did a really bad thing.


I don't know that this is true. I have not told a living soul about this besides a therapist because it is so embarrassing for me, but the anonymity offered by the internet makes this a lot easier. If they are scared and fearful it is over avoiding facing what they did and perhaps the sort of person they are to themselves. Or perhaps they know it would mean that they would have to change if they faced up to it and simply do not want to.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> Thatbpguy that royally sucks - how do you recover after that? Can you trust anyone? How long does it take for your self esteem to recover?


I have lost my ability to ever trust fully again. As she was the true love of my life, I have also never recovered emotionally or mentally. To me it is a life sentence- to be betrayed my someone you love with all your being. It is an issue in my second (and final) marriage and I have clearly communicated that to my wife and she gets it.

It just sucks to hell.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> SouthStand - how do you feel now that you've read this WS guide? Are you angry, sad?
> 
> A lot of people here get angry reading posts like these - even those of us who haven't had to go through this awful process - because we know 2 DD's means there was a false R and don't see how there can be a real R after that.
> 
> ...


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Marriage vows are like peace treaties, unless both parties honor it, you do not really have one."

Great analogy....couldn't agree more.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Brigit said:


> Men and women are different especially when it comes to sexual promiscuity. When a man cheats it might very well be just about sex and feeding his ego. But for women it's different. When a group of single girls go out to a club they don't think "I hope I get laid" they think "I hope I meet my future husband." _Maybe that's why it's harder for men to forgive their wives who cheated because they know it wasn't just about sex._


You nailed it Brig. A lot of men, in my opinion, do not want to accept she wasn't just in it for extramarital sex. To do so would be saying something is lacking in the relationship and how she feels about him that caused her to stray. The male brain creates perceptions that are based on self interest will reject, and even become hostel at any concept that may invalidate this perception.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Oddly, its reported that 80% of couples respond that they wish they would have reconciled instead of divorced because of adultery."

Chap,

I think this just shows the human tendency to focus on positive memories when reminiscing about their pasts.

What they are missing and wishing they could have back is the M they had BEFORE the A.

But that M wasn't ever coming back anyway, even if they had decided to R.

It reminds me of how my great-uncles and grandfather used to reminisce about their experiences from WWII....they almost always told about the humorous incidents that occurred.

As a teenage boy it made it sound like an adventure....and in some ways I think they really did miss the camaraderie and friendships they had with their brothers-in-arms.

But they rarely and reluctantly wanted to discuss the darker and more horrible experiences of war....and at those times, it was very apparent that they would NEVER want to return to those days.

I just think this 80% number reflects this tendency to remember only the happy/positive things about the M pre-A.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Have you talked to an attorney yet?

you should find out what would happen in D.

You may not have caught all of her affairs, but she will be having more. She is not remorseful, so you need to move on and get away from her before she hurts you even more.(if that were possible, but finding out about more or the next one, will not be better)

Let her find someone else to cheat on and start the 180 for yourself.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP:

sorry if I missed it in your posts but how long have you been married to her? children?


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> SouthStand - how do you feel now that you've read this WS guide? Are you angry, sad?
> 
> A lot of people here get angry reading posts like these - even those of us who haven't had to go through this awful process - because we know 2 DD's means there was a false R and don't see how there can be a real R after that.
> 
> ...


I have a few feelings after reading this.

1) I feel comfort and strength. Much of that echoed my feelings and it provided comfort and strength to know my thoughts are not out in left field.
2) I feel disappointment. I feel disappointment my WW has not reached out in search of such information. I plan to go through this information with her and talk about it. But as it relates to this post and the subject of remorse, if she took the initiative to find such information and be the one to bring it to me, that would be an amazing sign of remorse to me.

Obviously R1 was not real. I can see things that were lacking. There was lack of remorse. There was rug sweeping on both parts. But most of all, it boils down to communication and it not being where it needs to be. Without proper communication assumptions were often made about how the other person felt, rather than asking and talking. This was then followed by then making decisions based upon those assumptions.

Totally agree with your comments about how outcome could be different if things aren't done differently. In fact, on my phone for my WW's contact picture I have a picture that has the saying on it "If nothing changes, nothing changes".


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP:
> 
> sorry if I missed it in your posts but how long have you been married to her? children?


Coming up on 13 years. No children.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

Brigit said:


> I think you know in your gut if she wants out of the marriage. Most people can tell when they're not wanted anymore. It feels cold and confusing. If this is how you're feeling then you should divorce.


My gut tells me that she doesn't want out. She has been in IC pretty much every week for the last 6 months. Having been in IC myself and MC I am familiar with counseling and don't have the illusion it's guaranteed to fix things. But she continues to go. What I find confusing is what started this thread which what I see as a lack of remorse. I'm not sure if it's because she buried in shame. I can't tell, but what I do know it's important to our R and if she can't figure it out there will be no R and instead D.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> You nailed it Brig. A lot of men, in my opinion, do not want to accept she wasn't just in it for extramarital sex. To do so would be saying something is lacking in the relationship and how she feels about him that caused her to stray. The male brain creates perceptions that are based on self interest will reject, and even become hostel at any concept that may invalidate this perception.


I would agree with this. My feeling any couples, with men that won't accept that, will never R if they try. I own 50% of the state of our marriage up to the A.. I can accept the fact that my 50% may have caused her to ask for a D because she felt she was not getting what she needed from me. However my 50% will never justify the actions of an affair. If I am not open to this kind of thinking there is no chance for R. 

However, if my WW does show remorse and does not work with me and help me getting past A, I will not have the foundation or mindset to work on my 50% the way I should.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

South Stand said:


> My gut tells me that she doesn't want out. She has been in IC pretty much every week for the last 6 months. Having been in IC myself and MC I am familiar with counseling and don't have the illusion it's guaranteed to fix things. But she continues to go. What I find confusing is what started this thread which what I see as a lack of remorse. I'm not sure if it's because she buried in shame. I can't tell, but what I do know it's important to our R and if she can't figure it out there will be no R and instead D.


She may not want out but she doesn't want in either. She's just hanging around. The remorse you are looking I don't think she's gonna give. She has some shame sure but its not the shame of hurting you at least not yet. She's had months of counseling and the needle hasn't moved much. 
What is actually being discussed at MC? If your not dealing with the "elephant in the room". What progress if any do you think is coming from it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

South Stand said:


> However, if my WW does show remorse and does not work with me and help me getting past A, I will not have the foundation or mindset to work on my 50% the way I should.


SS my man, to me you sound like her lack of remorse is like a student failing to turn in an assignment. If she ever shows remorse its going to come from her heart and because she is regrets what she's done. The side of the coin that's the hardest for you to examine is the side that shows perhaps she has no regret and therefore she can't show remorse.
If push comes to shove and she knows the only way you're going keep her around, (assuming that's what she wants and not just trying to get her ducks in a row) what value is it for her to concoct the appearance of remorse to keep you in the saddle? It sounds like you'd be satisfied with only that. If that's the case, you're asking price is too low and you've taught her she can string you along.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

I wonder if she even knows what she wants.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

You want remorse but she's not sorry, if she was she would have done it.

2 Ddays means she gets her itch, gets to scratch it, gets to come back home and resume life as it was, but she's not sorry for what she's done because these were not mistakes but actions wilfully planned and executed, even though she knew what it did to you the first time.

She gets caught the first time. Balls in your court. You reconcile
She gets caught the second time. Balls again in your court. You reconcile.
You want her to say sorry/show remorse. She doesn't/won't. Balls in your court again.

She keeps swatting them back and you keep returning. Maybe it's time to stop returning.

Because that itch will definately return.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

BobSimmons said:


> 2 Ddays means she gets her itch, gets to scratch it, gets to come back home and resume life as it was, but she's not sorry for what she's done because these were not mistakes but actions wilfully planned and executed, even though she knew what it did to you the first time.


 This sums things up well. This is just the way she is and will continue to be if he stays in this arraignment. Even if she gets a clue and decides to show fake remorse, that will not change who she is.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

South Stand said:


> My gut tells me that she doesn't want out.


 Wow, she gets to repeatedly cheat on you and yet what she wants is what really matters in deciding the future of your marriage.



South Stand said:


> What I find confusing is what started this thread which what I see as a lack of remorse. I'm not sure if it's because she buried in shame. I can't tell, but what I do know it's important to our R and if she can't figure it out there will be no R and instead D.


 Wow, she gets to repeatedly cheat on you and yet all she has to do is be remorseful to stay in this marriage, and even that is not something that she has been willing to give you freely.

She calls the shots in your marriage for sure. She knows exactly what she can do to be able to cake eat with her lovers while married to you. You make it so easy for her to be able to have the fun of a serial cheater while being able to stay married to you if she wants. After the show of remorse, there is always the risk that the next time that you catch her cheating that she picks her affair partner over you, but that is a risk that she is willing to take. Never make someone a priority in your life that treats you like an option.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> "Marriage vows are like peace treaties, unless both parties honor it, you do not really have one."
> 
> Great analogy....couldn't agree more.


 Thanks. I am glad that you liked my analogy.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Is yours a sexless marriage South Stand?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chaos said:


> Is yours a sexless marriage South Stand?


LOL... for _him_, maybe.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... for _him_, maybe.


Beat me to it. LOL! She is definitely having more sex than him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Just wondering about the sexual dynamics of South Stand's marriage prior to both affairs.

Not excusing, just asking.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

South Stand said:


> I would agree with this. My feeling any couples, with men that won't accept that, will never R if they try. I own 50% of the state of our marriage up to the A.. I can accept the fact that my 50% may have caused her to ask for a D because she felt she was not getting what she needed from me. However my 50% will never justify the actions of an affair. If I am not open to this kind of thinking there is no chance for R.
> 
> However, if my WW does show remorse and does not work with me and help me getting past A, I will not have the foundation or mindset to work on my 50% the way I should.


I'm a bit confused. You say if your wife shows remorse, almost like if she suddenly popped up and said I'm so sorry with tears in her eyes she would be forgiven.

But it's been what 20 months...this is the second affair? You are dragging her, almost like taking the book, shoving her head towards it and going "LOOK! Read this...It's about remorse, now say you're sorry!"

As someone else said, maybe she wanted to have sex, 20 months past, maybe she's not sorry about what she did.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

honcho said:


> She may not want out but she doesn't want in either. She's just hanging around. The remorse you are looking I don't think she's gonna give. She has some shame sure but its not the shame of hurting you at least not yet. She's had months of counseling and the needle hasn't moved much.
> What is actually being discussed at MC? If your not dealing with the "elephant in the room". What progress if any do you think is coming from it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This.

often the big remorse that BSs require to R doesn't come as expected or at all. It may very well be that your WW isn't regretful for doing what she did. She may be regretful you were hurt in the process, but she would do it again if it met whatever need she had. Your expectation for remorse is keeping you stuck. Instead, truly figure out if this relationship is for you. 2 affairs? You still are thinking of R? Don't you want better for yourself? How much time are you going to spend in this? 

The clock of your life is ticking. A new scary exciting life awaits. Do something. D or move to R, but take control and do something.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Staying with this thread I am kind of glad my wife refused IC/MC as I think I would be trying to glue together the same problem the OP is here. I never tried to force her into it because I reasoned that if she wanted to change she would seek help both online and in the free counseling my work provides us. I have used it for IC and it is available to her and us for MC. 

Now when I drop the bomb on her in the next 2-3 weeks that I have chosen divorce I expect she will attempt to negotiate a stay of execution based on the boundaries I set before for a healthy relationship going forward which included MC/IC. But its a little to little, a little to late. A year ago I wrote three clear letters on exactly what I felt, what I needed out of the future, and what I though we had to do for it to work. She has stepped up to about 20% of that. 

The point is that there is zero utility coaching a person prone to manipulation on the next steps to manipulate you so they can keep control, continue to not really change, and wait for it to all just pass so they can go back on the prowl for a exciting fling.

You have to set boundaries, communicate them, but don't tell her where the edge of the cliff is. If she is at all trying, she probably won't go anywhere near the edge of the cliff. 

My impression is that you already know in your heart there isn't anything she is going to do that will change how you feel. You have to either decide to live with that or divorce for a chance to live a life free of this bullsh|t.


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## BookOfJob (Jul 6, 2012)

You will think that advice to divorce is freely given in this forum. However, the spirit of the advice given really is to step up your game, to man up, and get ready to weather the tough decisions you will have to take.

In the process, you may find that you actually woo the wife again. If not, then it is OK. You find the answer.

Are you being needy to your wife? That may actually make her think that you will be around even if she treats you badly. Therefore, my 1st paragraph above.

I know, getting your 1st DD 10 years ago, and then the 2nd one 1.5 years ago is difficult. On the surface, as an outsider, I'd personally view this is a chronically ill marriage. Not terminal but not healthy either.

Are you doing these things below?

------------------------------
Man Up Guide

1. Practice emotional restraint * Don't let it all out.
2. Learn to say "No" * Lay boundaries.
3. Make money * Get your sh1t together, make money with what you're passionate about.
4. Have a plan for life * Be decisive, live life with intent.
5. Recognize traditional roles for men and women * Women cook, men fix cars, man open door for a lady, etc.
6. Exercise * Healthy body, healthy mind.
7. Dress well * Boost confidence by dressing in a way you're proud of.
8. Engage in manly activities * Time for yourself.
9. Develop your personal self continuously:
a. Be willing to try something you're afraid of * State disagreement, talk to woman at random places
b. Rewrite your internal script on how you perceive and interact with woman * Don't put them on pedestal
c. *Be OK with losing your wife * This will actually keep her*
d. Be willing to have a conflict, calmly * At home and outside home (shop, work, etc)
e. Be at ease with expressing your desires * Put yourself first, then you will be in a position to care for others
f. Be competitive; at work, in private * Being alpha is not lazy.


9c above, if you don't put it on the table, you will not be able to see if she is moving forward with you, or moving away. Don't put it as an ultimatum, just bring it up as an option and you have to show and be ready - that you're OK with it.

YMMV, good luck.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

BookOfJob said:


> You will think that advice to divorce is freely given in this forum. However, the spirit of the advice given really is to step up your game, to man up, and get ready to weather the tough decisions you will have to take.
> 
> In the process, you may find that you actually woo the wife again. If not, then it is OK. You find the answer.
> 
> ...


Good stuff except some dissonance with 5 and 9b. I'd say do not put yourself in any subservient role to anyone. Be careful of traditional gender roles and chivalrous motions. Open the door if you like to all genders. Everyone can use a hand. You don't put anyone on a pedestal (boss, women, pro athletes, Hollywood elite, etc). Be your own man.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

BookOfJob said:


> You will think that advice to divorce is freely given in this forum. However, the spirit of the advice given really is to step up your game, to man up, and get ready to weather the tough decisions you will have to take.
> 
> In the process, you may find that you actually woo the wife again. If not, then it is OK. You find the answer.
> 
> ...


This is all good advice and much of this is part of the process I have gone through since my D-Day 18 months ago and I still need work on setting the more trivial boundaries. But I am not sure any of this reflects the OP's problem that his wife is willing to repeatedly betray him and go behind his back. 

Myself, I often let stuff go to avoid conflict because it just is not that big of deal to me--usually just little things. This post suggest that this practice is toxic to the relationship because unless you enforce your "alpha-ness" constantly, even over trivial matters, your wife will lose respect for you and then will seek other mates, behind your back if convenient. 

But this then arrives at the "Red Pill" view of women where they are just sort of animals that are basically slaves to imprinted and evolutionary behavior. While I acknowledge these patterns of behavior exist is it too much to expect that women should rise above baser instincts and rationalizations? Women that can say "this is what I need out of this marriage to stay committed to it" and perhaps even leave the marriage over the alternative of cheating? Does telling a man you need him to be more alpha, if that is the case, ruin the magic of alpha-ness? There certainly seems to be many women on this board who are well self-actualized and are capable of being partners in a relationship versus an object in the relationship.

Do I really need "manly hobbies" to maintain the love of my wife? Seriously? I am not talking about cross stitching but does it really have to be fixing cars, motorcycles, or water-skiing, or whatever? Isn't it enough to have a passion for what you are into?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

ScrambledEggs said:


> This is all good advice and much of this is part of the process I have gone through since my D-Day 18 months ago and I still need work on setting the more trivial boundaries. But I am not sure any of this reflects the OP's problem that his wife is willing to repeatedly betray him and go behind his back.
> 
> Myself, I often let stuff go to avoid conflict because it just is not that big of deal to me--usually just little things. This post suggest that this practice is toxic to the relationship because unless you enforce your "alpha-ness" constantly, even over trivial matters, your wife will lose respect for you and then will seek other mates, behind your back if convenient.
> 
> ...


No


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> No


No to what?


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> So most women want to know there is a solid MAN in there should the need arise. If a woman is constantly challenging you - the MAN dude inside is the guy that says ENOUGH! in a masculine way that says the boundary is about to be crossed. A MAN will put it out there and a woman may poke a bit - but like a dog (yeah I know I'll get killed for this) you have to swat that snout and end it. And if it won't end you put the dog down (take it to the shelter and let it be someone else's problem).
> 
> I bet the most feminist TAM women would agree with this analogy - because they wouldn't be acting like a dog sniffing at the boundaries just to either test you or try to cross them.
> 
> ...


What you are describing is called "sh|t tests" in Red Pill terminology and the concept is central the philosophy and is used to dehumanize women as manipulators versus partners. In fact, you sound like you are reading right from their material and I find it interesting that separately came to a similar conclusion.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> This brings me to your final point - a spouse who constantly tests your boundaries is trying to find weaknesses so they can get through. They are CLEARLY demonstrating only 1 of 2 things IMO:
> 
> 1 - they want the MAN to make the appearance to know they are HIS and HE cares enough to protect HIS mate OR
> 2 - she's already gone and is just trying to crack the boundary fence so she can cuckold you as punishment for NOT claiming her for yourself.


Your final point NAILS it. This is exactly what I have seen from personal experience. Both my ex and my current gf have strongly tested my boundaries (Women love their little sh!t tests). They almost do it without realizing it. It's like some weird primal instinct.

My serial cheat ex was definitely in the #2 category and my current gf is solidly in the #1 category. Sometimes the tests are the same despite the differing objectives. They even both, scary enough, use the same terminology in each case to describe their "needs" after I call them out on it.

I spot these test from a mile away now. I didn't before until I was educated on TAM. The problem I see is the tests never seem to end. You can pass 1,000 of them but fail once and your done. Women who seek constant validation are just like junkies, they can't stop themselves. It's up to the man to say enough and not be afraid to walk away.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> A year and 1/2 ago, after I found out that my fiance cheated on me in the early stages of our exclusive relationship. I made the mistake of being the one to learn about relationships and gave my fiance material on how to help your betrayed partner recover. In other words, I was the one that was doing most of the work. If your spouse was remorseful and desired you very much now, then she would be the active one trying to win back your trust/QUOTE]
> 
> So true!
> 
> ~sammy


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> Oh and since I'm kind of being a d*ck please look at yourself betrayeddad and see if you are picking these women on purpose because you have some baggage you're carrying around.
> 
> Are they more attentive at first when they think your the sh*t? I am just shooting from the hip - never been in that situation. Anyway you're closer to it - see what you're doing to attract these women...


You're being a d*ck? I didn't notice lol.

Whether the men realize it or not, all women sh!t test. Some more than others but they all do it. Sh!t tests themselves are not a deal breaker but the consequences women dole out for failing them can be. I don't think people actively attract broken people. There's just a lot of them out there. Who among us has not been in at least one bad relationship? It's your job when you date to see the red flags before it's too late.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

South Stand said:


> I feel like I couldn't have made this any easier in terms of pointing her toward a step to help move us forward. But given there has been no discussion on the subject I can't help feel she is not remorseful. I have to believe that while maybe she doesn't have all the answers, 6 months is enough time to have some thoughts on the matter?


I think you need to stop wasting your time with marriage counseling. Bottom line, you want her to be something she is not. Which is sorry. I think you should seek individual counseling however. You are clearly having a hard time understanding that you CAN'T change people. You are trying to project your mind set onto her. She thinks completely differently than you do. The difference is she will not sacrifice for this relationship and she knows you will. So she uses you as plan B.

I believe she's ashamed of what she did sure and I believe she's upset you discovered her affair. Those are real emotions BUT she is NOT sorry she did it. You need to understand that she is only sorry she got caught but she's not sorry she did it. In her mind, as long as you never find out, then it is ok to cheat on you to get her ego fed. That's the truth. So she will never TRUELY be remorseful because she is selfish and entitled. 

Are you okay with this? Because is the answer is no, then you're done with this relationship. Which if you haven't figured it out yet so was she. About ten years ago. Stop clinging on to a lost cause. Your love in this relationship is a one way street. It's a dysfunctional situation. Learn acceptance so you can break your codependency and move on.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

South Stand said:


> Thanks for your post. Maybe I am weak. I'm sure others have read this and thought that. After DD we separated for 6 months (I initiated) thinking she would have some time away to reflect at take a good hard look. During this time we were in counseling and things progressed to the point where we got back together.... but well here I am.


You separated for six months, while I had separated for five months. I also was as strong as possible during those first six months and improved a lot, but it just wasn't possible to be objective enough when pain was still so intense. 

The wedding was cancelled for a few months and then I thought her changes were enough for us to get married eight months later. Since we've gotten married early Fall 2014, she has been stable, caring, and more than willing to share all passwords. However, I actually feel worse as time goes by because of the past lies and betrayal. I also know that she settled for me at that time. 

Therefore, even though she has been a wife who treats me nicely, I learned that five or eight months was not enough for me to process everything. Seventeen months after D-day, I realize that I might not ever be able to get past a very cruel form of betrayal that happened for a few months almost 3 years ago. If she had been proactive and willing to work hard to help me heal, then I'm sure that I would be in a much better place today.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> 1 - they want the MAN to make the appearance to know they are HIS and HE cares enough to protect HIS mate OR
> 2 - she's already gone and is just trying to crack the boundary fence so she can cuckold you as punishment for NOT claiming her for yourself.


Women will often do this when insecurity or uncertainty is present.
It is important to "show up" but also to ask why is this moment of insecurity/uncertainty manifesting. That will usually be an issue of hers, since this is a bit passive aggressive and she is not making the most of her frontal cortex in how she handles it.




MarriedGuy221 said:


> Please look at yourself betrayeddad and see if you are picking these women on purpose because you have some baggage you're carrying around.
> 
> Are they more attentive at first when they think your the sh*t? - see what you're doing to attract these women...


A broken picker...but this is a good red flag to be aware of. Its a good observation. It may not be that someone is attracting these women as much as its easier for that person to connect with that women and so they fall for her.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

If a woman is so insecure as to resort to "shvt tests" then she is not to be trusted with any man's heart.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> I made the mistake of being the one to learn about relationships and gave my fiance material on how to help your betrayed partner recover. In other words, I was the one that was doing most of the work.


 If you have to solicit empathy and remorse, you need to realize the chick doesn't really care that much about you to begin with. Here's a very simple thing about women that some guys, to their own detriment, refuse to understand. When a woman digs you, she clearly and unmistakably cares about your feelings and well being and will go the extra mile to alleviate the problem.
Now you guess what it means when a woman is oblivious to your condition. Here's a hint. It ain't because she doesn't understand or lacks the know how.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

chaos said:


> If a woman is so insecure as to resort to "shvt tests" then she is not to be trusted with any man's heart.


I always allowed two. On the third, I looked for a replacement. If she wants to manipulate her fellow, she's be more successful and happier with someone else.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Decorum said:


> It may not be that someone is attracting these women as much as its easier for that person to connect with that women and so they fall for her.


Classic nice guy rescuer? Fair enough. I can't argue, that in the situation my ex, I thought I could rescue her. I learned the hard way you can't change broken people. However, it's also never too late to change yourself. Same message, I'm trying to convey to the OP now.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> I always allowed two. On the third, I looked for a replacement. If she wants to manipulate her fellow, she's be more successful and happier with someone else.


Same thing here. I refuse to be treated like a lab rat by any woman.


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## South Stand (Dec 17, 2014)

chaos said:


> Just wondering about the sexual dynamics of South Stand's marriage prior to both affairs.
> 
> Not excusing, just asking.


Prior to first I would say it was healthy. Following first it was on the decline. However as noted above, this is not an excuse.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> If you have to solicit empathy and remorse, you need to realize the chick doesn't really care that much about you to begin with. Here's a very simple thing about women that some guys, to their own detriment, refuse to understand. When a woman digs you, she clearly and unmistakably cares about your feelings and well being and will go the extra mile to alleviate the problem.
> Now you guess what it means when a woman is oblivious to your condition. Here's a hint. It ain't because she doesn't understand or lacks the know how.



lol, sorry, PHX, I wasnt very clear, my fault, I'm a female., but does the same advise hold up? 

~sammy


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> If you have to solicit empathy and remorse, you need to realize the chick doesn't really care that much about you to begin with. Here's a very simple thing about women that some guys, to their own detriment, refuse to understand. When a woman digs you, she clearly and unmistakably cares about your feelings and well being and will go the extra mile to alleviate the problem.
> Now you guess what it means when a woman is oblivious to your condition. Here's a hint. It ain't because she doesn't understand or lacks the know how.


Not all women are like this. This is a tendency of ape-minded men and women who can't manage their own urges. People in a us vs them mentality whose main mission is to compete for resources in the material world, including status, people, etc. Marriage is not dating. It goes deeper than that to loving and respecting your mate for who they are. You dig who they are, you're proud of them, you care for them. The floozies in this world are the ones who will drop to their knees for the first sweet talking boss or tennis coach or whatever. Some naive and good women who lack self-esteem or maturity get turned, get ****ted out because they've gotten into a comfortable routine with their husbands and families. That's not a good woman to begin with; she never developed herself spiritually and emotionally. She'd do the same to the next guy if someone else offered her "more". If they can't offer remorse, it makes them more of an animal in mate selection mode. A woman (or man) like this should be divorced.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> The person chooses to act selfish. It's not a mistake.
> 
> Cheating is a choice...a sequence of deliberately thought out actions where various possible outcomes are weighed and considered.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I would guess most WS don't just trip and fall onto another woman/man...naked. It's a series of choices.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Dear South Stand,

Here's what you've told us:



South Stand said:


> This is my first post here although I've been visiting this sight for about 6 months now. *I am at about 20 months past DD (2nd time).* There is some great information and perspectives here. The thread that has resonated with me the most is the one below. In particular the ones talking about triggers and remorse.
> 
> *As soon as I read section about 6 months ago this I showed it to my WW.* I thought what better way to give her some perspective from others views about triggers and remorse. This resonated with me so much in particular the point in the remorse section about..."Actively works to understand why he or she made the choice to have an affair and shares insights with BS" that *I explained to my wife it was very important she give this some thought and we talk about it. *
> 
> ...





South Stand said:


> *I have had 2 D Days. The first was over 10 years ago.*





South Stand said:


> I couldn't agree with this more. *I am not one to act quickly,* but have realized I only have 1 life to live and if there is no hope for it to move toward R in a positive and meaningful way then I will look for happiness elsewhere.





South Stand said:


> I applaud you for telling your story and being here and the reasons you stay here. It is encouraging to see WS open themselves up to this environment. Unfortunately, even after pointing my WS to this site, it appears she is content on progress with the resources she feels most comfortable rather than feeling uncomfortable at times. I feel we would be so much further down the path of a true R. * I often try to put myself in her shoes so to speak to try and understand things from the other perspective* which is why I appreciate comments from WS's like yourself.
> 
> In any case, I am not sure I follow the connection between a man cheating and single women looking for a future husband. I have told my WW numerous times that while it may have been difficult to hear at the time, I would have understood if she told me she needed to leave the marriage because I was not the future husband she dreamed of I could accept that. While it may have not been enjoyable hearing it, it far out weighs the path she took. If she chose the former path there would be no need to forgive only reflection on my part about what I could have done.





South Stand said:


> *Coming up on 13 years. No children.*





South Stand said:


> *My gut tells me that she doesn't want out.* She has been in IC pretty much every week for the last 6 months. Having been in IC myself and MC I am familiar with counseling and don't have the illusion it's guaranteed to fix things. But she continues to go. What I find confusing is what started this thread which what I see as a lack of remorse. I'm not sure if it's because she buried in shame. I can't tell, but what I do know it's important to our R and if she can't figure it out there will be no R and instead D.


Now, based on what you have told us, these are the salient facts of your marital situation:

1. You have been married for 13 years. Your WW has cheated on you twice (that you know of) in these 13 years, first in the 2nd or 3rd year of your marriage and then again in the 11th or 12th year.

2. You gave your WW a 'second chance' after her first affair and a 'third chance' after her second, despite the fact that the degree of remorse she WW exhibited after both affairs was less than you would have liked it to be. Given your generally low expectations, we can reasonably infer from this that her level of remorse is extremely low.

3. You have repeatedly _"explained"_ to your WW your desire that she exhibit more remorse but to little effect. As a result, you _"can't help feel she is not remorseful."_

4. You have no children.

5. You are the kind of person who is slow to act and (if I may venture from the realm of certitude to that of speculation) you are resistant to if not down right afraid of change.

6. Your WW has suffered few if any serious consequences as a result of having cheated multiple times. Instead of giving her consequences, you strive to _"understand"_ her.

Based on these facts, here is what we can reasonably conclude about you, your WW and your future:

• Given that there are no children whose lives could be harmed if your were to divorce your WW, you have no excuse for staying with a serial cheater who shows little remorse for her adultery. Thus, the best explanation for your behavior is that you have very little self-esteem. Forgive me for being blunt but, unless he stays for religious reasons, any man who stays with a woman who cheats on him twice and fails to demonstrate remorse either time is most likely a weak a man with little self-respect.

• Your WW holds you in very low regard, so low that she sees you as little more than a someone whose purpose in life is to enable her to fulfill desires no matter the harm to him. She feels this way about you because you have demonstrated to her these past 10 or 11 years that you prefer to put up with humiliation and emotional pain rather than do anything meaningful about her adulterous behavior. Why should she try to change or even pretend to be remorseful when all you have done is complain mildly about her lack of remorse?

• As long as you continue in this passive mode, your marriage will not improve and the odds are your WW will cheat on you again. If she cheats again, you will have only yourself to blame because you knew what she was capable of and chose to do nothing to about it. This will lead to a further loss of self-esteem and an even worse life for you.

Frankly, I don't believe that your marriage is worth saving and I doubt that your WW is capable of reforming. While I could be wrong about these things, I am certain of is that, unless and until you start to give your WW serious consequences for her adulterous behavior, she has no reason to show remorse.

I suggest you boot her out of the house, file for divorce and tell her that the ball in now in her court to prove that she is entitled to another chance. Then sit back and see if she starts acting remorseful. If yes, maybe there is hope. If no, accept the fact that you've wasted the last 10 years of your life and move on.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

I think this is yet another thread where it is asked "how can I get past her affair?" and after a great number of exchanges we, in efect, arrive at the answer - "by getting past her"

there is no better way for someone to communicate that they don't love you than to commit adultery. The message wouldn't be clearer if they were to write it on their forehead. Any "remorse" that appears after the fact must be taken with many grains of salt. I'd recommend an entire salt mine, actually


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