# Gender relations and the current state of Misogyny/Misandry



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

This post is a direct off-shoot of the "Misogyny and the shooting rampage in Santa Barbara" thread that was posted in the Ladies Lounge. 

Several people discussed have a thread to discuss thoughts surrounding that thread. Unfortunately, that I felt that thread was really just a rant, but a rant with some *very valid points*.

Share your thoughts on this as you like . This thread is not about hate and it is now way to promote hate. This thread is about having a calm and rational debate.

I will start.


"Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcernedDad View Post
I agree with this. How do we expect for women to trust us when men won't even call out other men for bad behavior? I don't see how any decent men can possibly defend PUA for example.

As for women having a fear of men, as unfortunate as it may be it is indeed justified, considering history and even today. But really, if you are a good decent man then you have nothing to worry about, so it's ridiculous to keep arguing over this."



I don't agree with the probably 90% of what the PUA scene or the MRA scene had said or done. I most certainly do not promote violence against anyone.

My only dog in this fight is the comment is "if you are a good decent man then you have nothing to worry about, so it's ridiculous to keep arguing over this."

Nope. You take the beatings for being an evil man. I won't.
Pretty sick of the "evil man" mentality. 


What do the following all have in common?

KKK
Nation of Yahweh
PUA
MRA
Radical Feminism - (NOTE I SAID, RADICAL)
Muslim Brotherhood


They are all hate groups.

What is Misogyny and Misandry.

Hate. Nothing more, Nothing less.


Lets have a hate free discussion.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

I found this link. It maps out hate groups.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map


But yet, how do we take into account Misogyny/Misandry. These are usually virtual communities, and really can not be traced to a physical location.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

But at the same time, both the radical feminists and the MRA dudes move things to the middle when they are out of whack. 

An example for you: A decade ago, when a husband found out that he wasn't the father of his wife's kids, he was screwed in nearly every state. Divorce? Too bad, you're paying child support for your wife's and OM's kid. Now only a few states force men to do that. Why did that change? MRA guys.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Windwalker said:


> This post is a direct off-shoot of the "Misogyny and the shooting rampage in Santa Barbara" thread that was posted in the Ladies Lounge.
> 
> Several people discussed have a thread to discuss thoughts surrounding that thread. Unfortunately, that I felt that thread was really just a rant, but a rant with some *very valid points*.
> 
> ...


I am curious. Aside from what you think you are seeing on TAM, what beatings do you take? What does that look like?


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> But at the same time, both the radical feminists and the MRA dudes move things to the middle when they are out of whack.
> 
> An example for you: A decade ago, when a husband found out that he wasn't the father of his wife's kids, he was screwed in nearly every state. Divorce? Too bad, you're paying child support for your wife's and OM's kid. Now only a few states force men to do that. Why did that change? MRA guys.




You provide a great example. One that I wholeheartedly agree with. The problem with that is the extremists in each group. 

Since the shooting last week. Any mention of MRA or PUA is pretty much faced with a tirade of hate.


I am of the opinion that every single birth should have a mandatory DNA test. I am also of the thought that in the case of a divorce the based standard should be 50/50 joint custody, and then take all of the circumstances into account.

Are we there yet. No.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am curious. Aside from what you think you are seeing on TAM, what beatings do you take? What does that look like?


The same beatings that a woman takes from the misogyny groups. Just in the opposite direction. And it's not just me that gets the beatings, either.


*General hate and bad feeling flow in both directions.*

NAWALT

NAMALT.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, and vice versa.


Oh and btw, There is no think to it. Not only is it stated on this forum by many people of both genders. It also happens in the everyday world.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Not really sure if this is what we are supposed to talk about, but since being on TAM, I am having some of my beliefs challenged. I tend to hold men responsible for problems in marriage. But some women seem challenging to deal with, too. I think I am realizing that women are not always innocent.

I am still not convinced marital problems are 50/50, but they are probably not 80/20, either.

Learning a lot on TAM . . .


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Not really sure if this is what we are supposed to talk about, but since being on TAM, I am having some of my beliefs challenged. I tend to hold men responsible for problems in marriage. But some women seem challenging to deal with, too. I think I am realizing that women are not always innocent.
> 
> I am still not convinced marital problems are 50/50, but they are probably not 80/20, either.
> 
> Learning a lot on TAM . . .




No. What you brought up is absolutely fine. The discussion is gender relations and this definitely falls into that category.

Why is it that you think marital problems are not 50/50? 
There are cases in which this is true, but I can't see that all of them are that way.

Every relationship is dynamic and few follow the exact same course. As the saying goes. It takes two to tango? No one person is a saint.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Windwalker said:


> No. What you brought up is absolutely fine. The discussion is gender relations and this definitely falls into that category.
> 
> Why is it that you think marital problems are not 50/50?
> There are cases in which this is true, but I can't see that all of them are that way.
> ...


Most of the women that I have known in my middle class, Midwestern life have been pretty devoted to their families. They often work full- or part-time and then go home to their kids and houses. Their husbands usually work full-time, too, but spend a lot of time on their hobbies. 

I get the feeling the women want the family more than the men, and are less willing to rock the boat. Too much complaining, and the man will just tune them out. They want the relationship more than the man, which gives the man more power.

To me, if you have more power, it is incumbent upon you to use it for good, not to take advantage of your wife's vulnerability.

I think a lot of women will put up with a lot to protect their children.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> They are all hate groups.
> 
> What is Misogyny and Misandry.
> 
> ...


What bothers me is the broad brush approach to things. 

For example, there have been many threads about feminism.

It seems that the women tend to be in two camps about it...

1) They support feminism: advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, legal, and economic equality to men.


2) There are women who basically say that they do not like feminism. These women generally do not clarify what it is that they do not like. What don't they like? That they have equal rights now? Or do they think that women should be paid less just because they are women? I don't know and they tend not to say. Personally I think that they like the gains made by feminism. They would yell and holler if those gains were taken away. But just don't want to be associated with the nut case radical types. Who does... well except for the nut case radical types of course. 


Now we get to the men. Almost unanimously here, men will attack anything if the word feminism is in it. It's as though a large portion of men feel that 'feminism' is an direct attack on them as individuals. Say the word "feminism" and all rationality goes out the window.

I think that it would be good if we, as a community, could come to an agreement that when are talking about things like feminism (women's rights), men's rights, etc that we are not talking about the most radical elements.

Doing this would eliminate a lot of the problems.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think it is hard for men and women to really imagine what it is like to be in one another's shoes. It just looks so easy. All the advantages seem so obvious.

And few people want to listen and empathize. Nobody just affirms someone and stops, or asks to better understand. A point has to be made, or a weakness exposed. 

Or someone wants to just shut down discussion. That is the worst thing that can happen, just shutting down communication. Then for sure we won't learn anything.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> I think it is hard for men and women to really imagine what it is like to be in one another's shoes. It just looks so easy. All the advantages seem so obvious.
> 
> And few people want to listen and empathize. Nobody just affirms someone and stops, or asks to better understand. A point has to be made, or a weakness exposed.
> 
> Or someone wants to just shut down discussion. That is the worst thing that can happen, just shutting down communication. Then for sure we won't learn anything.


What I find odd is that generally I do not see these issues in my real life. No one is arguing about this. Everyone I talk to seems to accept equality of the sexes. Most do not have huge chips about the other gender.

But come here to TAM and it's crazy.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Most of the women that I have known in my middle class, Midwestern life have been pretty devoted to their families. They often work full- or part-time and then go home to their kids and houses. Their husbands usually work full-time, too, but spend a lot of time on their hobbies.
> 
> I get the feeling the women want the family more than the men, and are less willing to rock the boat. Too much complaining, and the man will just tune them out. They want the relationship more than the man, which gives the man more power.
> 
> ...



You bring up valid points. In your personal experience this is what has shaped your views. It makes sense.

What about some of the men we read about here on TAM? The ones that finish off their work day and still do a load of chores around the house, and then get nagged on or b!tched at. What happens when the last kid leaves the house and he looks at the wife and says. I'm done. Keep the house, keep everything. I just want out. When the whole time all he did was kept the peace as much as possible and stayed for the kids. 

It does happen.


Depending on where you look. The percentage of divorces filed by women range from 65%-80%. I know it makes me wonder about what a woman really wants.



EleGirl said:


> What bothers me is the broad brush approach to things.
> 
> For example, there have been many threads about feminism.
> 
> ...



I like the way you worded that. I don't disagree. There are a lot of men that do get offended when the word feminism comes up? I wonder if it is because most men might associate feminism with the radical nut jobs and not equal rights. I know I have caught myself thinking that at times.

I agree that disassociating feminism and men's rights from the radical fringe would eliminate a lot of problems.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> What I find odd is that generally I do not see these issues in my real life. No one is arguing about this. Everyone I talk to seems to accept equality of the sexes. Most do not have huge chips about the other gender.
> 
> But come here to TAM and it's crazy.


I think it is because a lot of people come to TAM because they are hurt. But we do not always hear the hurt. We hear the anger, the aggression, the bitterness.

And I guess if we could just be stronger, we could absorb it, and offer compassion and understanding. 

I need to try to respond with active listening. I think that would help.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> It seems that the women tend to be in two camps about it...
> 
> 1) They support feminism: advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, legal, and economic equality to men.
> 
> 2) *There are women who basically say that they do not like feminism. These women generally do not clarify what it is that they do not like. What don't they like? *That they have equal rights now? Or do they think that women should be paid less just because they are women? I don't know and they tend not to say. Personally I think that they like the gains made by feminism. They would yell and holler if those gains were taken away.* But just don't want to be associated with the nut case radical types. Who does... well except for the nut case radical types of course. *


I explained what I don't like in a post months ago...


> *Simplyamorous said:*
> 
> In my opinion, Feminism can go TOO FAR, I do not get along with hard core feminists at all....I do not care for their books or their attitudes.. I have more in common with the more conservative type women ....and some would judge me as too old fashioned and have their snide comments saying "we don't live in the 1940's anymore", etc..
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> Depending on where you look. The percentage of divorces filed by women range from 65%-80%. I know it makes me wonder about what a woman really wants.


Unfortunately I have never seen study that has been done that gives a clear picture of this.

By the time a divorce is filed the marriage is usually completely broken. The divorce is no surprise in most cases. The person who files for divorce is not always the person who is at fault (if there is a person who is at fault in a particular marriage). No matter who is at fault, women are usually the ones who feel that they need financial support. Women are usually the lower earner and many are completely dependent on their husbands. The women usually are the primary care takers of the children even if they work. So it’s the women who file to get support started as soon as possible. 

Maybe men resist filing and would prefer to live in limbo because they believe they will be taken to the cleaners since it seems that most men view all assets accumulated in the marriage as their sole property. 

In most of the divorces I know about, the woman filed first. Most of them divorced their husbands due to his repeated infidelity and him being abusive either emotionally and/or physically. I filed for divorce in two marriage for these reasons.

Right now I can think of 3 men I know who filed for divorce. 

1)	Because he his wife abandoned him and their children for her OM. She was bi-polar and had developed drug/alcohol problems.

2)	Was because she was bi-polar, physically abusive and had drug/alcohol problems.

3)	She was bat sh!t crazy, pulled a knife on him and the baby.. Long history of just crazy behavior. 

I just do not personally know anyone who I can think of who just left filed for divorce without some real cause.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I explained what I don't like in a post months ago...


What you wrote here is all about radical feminists.. the feminazi. 

Most women know all about how wonderful a good man is, enjoy and respect the differences between the genders. This is not unique to SAHMs.

Feminism means that we all have choices. The way you have chosen to live your life is your choice and beautiful. The way I live my life is as well. They are very different but each is right for the individual.

I have not been fortunate enough to end up with a guy like your husband. So my choices were a lot more forced in that when I stared out in life I did not plan on being the sole breadwinner. But because of the rights that feminists fought for I am able to earn more than most men. I have been able to support my family in a good fashion. I have also been able to be a very good mother to my children. In the 1940's and earlier I would not have had that choice. I would have been relegated to poverty simply because I am a woman if I wanted to be free for a cheating abuser. I probably would have had to choose to stay with a serial cheater who was emotionally and physically abusive.

Not every woman has a husband who takes care of her. Some husbands become disabled. Many die before their wife. Some husbands refuse to work and take care of their wife. This leaves the woman to fend for herself. Thank goodness that today a woman can support herself when life throws her such a blow. 

When you and others equate all things about feminism to the most radical elements, it harms the vast majority of women who support equality and are not radical. What this does is to take away our voice. 

I have never told any SAHM all the things that you say that feminists do. Most of the women who identify as feminists on TAM don't say such nonsense. So cut us some slack. 

If you have a beef with the radial feminists then talk to them about that beef. I surely have nothing to do with the nonsense they spew.

(Not trying to be mean here or harsh.. I really adore you. It's just the topic ya know.  )


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> MY SEXUAL VIEWS
> 
> I see a lot of differences between men and women.. I LIKE those differences... I LOVE the fact they are physically stronger, I even LOVE the fact they have a higher sex drive, I think it's freaking awesome... and It doesn't bother me they are visual either.. they just need some self control and a restraint - while they get to know a woman...


I did not address each issue you raised because I was trying to be general and avoid a book. Guess that did not work.

What’s there to say.. I like men. I’m a woman. Makes sense that I would like men. So yea why wouldn’t a woman love that men are strong or stronger and are visual. I love men who have a high sex drive because I have an equally high sex drive. I’d hate it any other way.



SimplyAmorous said:


> They also have their weaker side too , yeah they like to have their ego's stroked (so what- if they are good to us, they deserve [email protected]#$).... and they NEED us women too...


Both men and women need to have their egos stroked. Often it’s in different ways. Both deserve it. We need each other. Men and women are two parts of a whole. That’s not to say that ether cannot live a good life without the other. But it’s very good when a man and a woman can make it work and work well.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I have read so many articles on these differences between man & women...and that beautiful Dance.. many that are conservative in nature...that has INSPIRED me ...I have great regard for the opposite sex and also to love my own place in that dance...


Makes sense to me. I feel the same. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I love the fact it is built within Men to want to protect women.. the general man is compelled , something ingrained in him to provide for his Family....I highly LOOK up to MEN.. the good ones anyway..


I look up to men who are like this. I also look up to women who support and protect their family. I have known many men and women who are like this.

I have not been married to a man who feels a need to protect and provide for a family. When I married I assumed that all men were like this. That’s what my father was like and most of the men I knew growing up. But me? I pick two who are not like this and they did not inform me of this prior to marriage. Interestingly, the fathers of both the men I married also did not protect and support their wives (my MILs). So this is not a case of a modern generation of men suddenly acting badly. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> But I feel so many are being lost today because they don't have those Honorable examples anymore... women don't need them anymore.. they have little to work for...less of a purpose.... women give them sex at the drop of the hat...very few see any reason to marry anymore ... I believe MANY MEN like to feel Needed... Oh this is such a wrong thing to say !!! Would they dare want to admit to that...makes them sound pathetic.. Men also care more about RESPECT over Love... I feel this is true...


It’s not true that women do not need men anymore. Women get married and still look for men who will be good marriage partners. Once married most couples stay married. Most divorces are in the lower income brackets and between very young people. If you look at the rest of the population, only about 25% of marriages end in divorce.
Why would a man with children have little to work for? Why would they have less of a purpose? Most men have families… they have children and a wife. I don’t get why a men has less to work for.
It does seem that women give sex very easily. It also seems that men demand this now. There are men on here who say that they will not date a woman who does not sleep with them by the 3rd date. Men generally will take sex whenever they can get it, especially single men. So let’s not hold men as innocent victims for getting what they chase and demand.
Yes men need to feel needed. So do women. Men need respect and love. So do women. Men and women are very different in some ways and yet similar in others. 
These way of thinking is not anti-feminist. It’s not something that only conservative and/or SAHMs believe and realize. SAHMs don’t have some great vat of knowledge about men that women who work don’t have. Most women who are feminists (not radical feminists) are in marriages and raising children just like most SHAMs. They have the same ratio of good and bad marriages.



SimplyAmorous said:


> There are differences.. so much to say here, and it's not a subject I am heavily versed in at all.. I just know I resonate more with those who blast the hard core feminists... so that is my take on this...


So you have a problem with hard core feminists. I do to. I think that they have gone off the deep end. If someone tells you that you have to work out side home and you have to view things like “3rd wave radicals” then that person is a radial. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> Pick up any feminist book on sexuality and tell me what their worldview is.. does it embrace choice here too, or does it judge those with a more conservative view...??


You would have to tell me what book if you wanted a direct response about what is said in that book. This is way too general to address.


I can tell you that there are books on the more conservative, or anti-feminist side of the spectrum that are downright offensive. For example ones that say that women have no need for orgasm. That feminism has ruined women because it taught us that we should enjoy sex. There are nuts all over the place and in every ideology camp. The point of my post a few posts up is that we need to stop identifying an ideology with the radial camp hanger on’s who use a good basic ideology to spring board their nonsense.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I've BEEN rejected and labeled by those who would call themselves "balanced" feminists... while I do my best to acknowledge I understand people are different and want different things. But they can't seem to give Me the same consideration.. I am just speaking how I have felt being "put down" in this...


I’m sure this was as hard for you to deal with as it is for me to deal with the heavy negativity thrown at me form some anti-feminists, SAHMs, religious groups, many men here on TAM and a long list more of people who are bent on squashing the voice of the more moderate mainstream feminists. Keep in mind that moderate mainstream feminists get it from the anti-feminists like you and we get it from the feminazi types.

One thing I have seen over and over again is that when most ‘conservative’ (often SAHMs) finds out that her husband has cheated, or has left her or has passed away she suddenly realizes that she has to stand on her own two feet and is usually ill prepared. At point she starts to adopt a much more feminist point of view because suddenly she was to go out, get a job, and so forth. Suddenly she needs all that equality that she’s been putting down for a long time. No one needs the nonsense spewed by radical feminist. But most women need the things that feminism has given them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl...there is absolutely nothing you have said that I can disagree with except in your ending, feeling that I would suddenly change my feelings and call myself a feminist if my H died and I had to go out working.. I work a little now but it's nothing I could support a family on..let alone myself..

Sure that could happen and if it does, we have life insurance/ a large chunk of $$ saved, more than he earns in a year plus...I will also get so much from his work the way it is set up....we've been debt free for yrs.. we own a nice chunk of property.....I would hardly be penniless if anything...I'd have to watch out some man is not trying to USE ME -to get his hands on what I own...if I started dating -cause I'd want this all to fall to our children...

We have planned well...my biggest fear would be getting health insurance... I am a worrier by nature & I probably couldn't sleep at night, if I felt ANYTHING had the possibility to leave me destitute.. Also, I am not used to a high class lifestyle , I know how to live on little.. I am surely not against men & women earning the same amount of money for the same work done, having the right to vote or any such thing.... those things needed to be fought for.. ABSOLUTELY....

Yet..I highly doubt anyone here is going to convince ME to call myself a feminist....I just don't care for the word...it has been tainted ...*but I'll stand up and say I believe in equal rights for ALL*... 



> *EleGirl said *:It does seem that women give sex very easily. It also seems that men demand this now. There are men on here who say that they will not date a woman who does not sleep with them by the 3rd date. Men generally will take sex whenever they can get it, especially single men. So let’s not hold men as innocent victims for getting what they chase and demand.


 I don't look at this the same way you do.. I surely do NOT look at such men as innocent..but I also would reject such men pushing me to do something I was not comfortable with ....not pander to them...plenty of fish in the sea...

How I feel about this is very different from what you described.. I feel women have a tremendous amount of power ..yet they freely GIVE IT UP too quickly to men ... why do WE do that?? We pander to men (should we blame the men for this or ourselves - I would blame myself personally -it is not the normal perspective I suppose).....* I actually feel how women behave as a whole can change men as a whole*.. 

BUt you know what, THAT's a RADICAL view right there......and No, I surely don't see the day where vast amounts of women are going to say "NO" to sleeping with men too quickly .... but if they DID...you would see the day men would begin to change.. and be better men, more willing to come our direction...more respect would be given to us... they would conform to win our affections...

This write up explains HOW I feel about these things.. it even mentions "feminine charm" ... 



> The Power of a Woman
> 
> Samuel Johnson once said that “Nature has given women so much power that the law has wisely given them veryJim Duzak little.” Thankfully, the legal status of women has changed since the eighteenth century, at least in the Western world. But the first part of Johnson’s quote still rings true. Women do have power, lots of it. But I’m not just talking about power within the family, or power in the workplace, or even power in high political office. I’m talking about a more basic kind of power: *power over men*.
> 
> ...


 As to the book.....

The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women: Jessica Valenti: Books..now I have no doubt there are plenty of things in this book that I would AGREE with...the religious right absolutely does go TOO FAR.. but does this book allow for a Romantic view of sexuality.. for practicing one's faith.. I doubt it.. it wants all women to conform to the new program-as if we don't , we are holding back feminist progress or something....and that I can NOT get behind.. (I have not read it but ya know, I am very curious.. when it sells for a penny, I will probably buy it !)...I am not against reading anything , in fact I ENJOY listening to the opposite side .. it challenges my thinking ...

This is another book out there ...this one on my shelf.... one thing is certain.. these are 2 vastly different world views on what to teach our young children .....

Hooked: New Science on How Casual Sex is Affecting Our Children: Books

As for me , I want them to learn of ALL VIEWS (did a thread on that here *>>*

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...exual-views-have-they-changed-over-years.html ...to be aware that people want different things, to not be naive in this.. also about safe sex, STD's, some can render a girl infertile (I consider this a pretty big deal)... I would not withhold my children from ANY sex education class, I am not afraid of them learning...I am not in the camp of the religious right at all...

But I want them to be armed with wisdom to make right choices..to understand fully the emotional ramifications also... they say our brains are not fully developed till our mid 20's... yet today it seems we encourage them to get plenty of experience sexually yrs before this, so sowing wild oats is a right of passage for everyone? ...Is there not a role for us as parents to equip our children to handle these yrs making right choices ... not to repress (by any means- no one could say that in our house!)...but also not to jump in too quickly where they will be left dumped, alone, emotionally devastated , to where they learn to "detach" from the act as well...it's a deep subject...not one to take lightly and just throw birth control at.... that is my position.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Windwalker said:


> You bring up valid points. In your personal experience this is what has shaped your views. It makes sense.
> 
> What about some of the men we read about here on TAM? The ones that finish off their work day and still do a load of chores around the house, and then get nagged on or b!tched at.


This is what I wanted to ask about. You said that problem was cultural (I'm referring to your post on the other thread). Do you feel that the cultural trend is skewing towards women behaving more with a "chip on their shoulder" and having too many expectations? I've seen this kind of attitude myself but not that often and certainly not in my entourage. None of my friends act like this, to the contrary, they basically put up with a lot. 

For my part, I wouldn't try acting like that because 1) I don't see why it would be fair to expect the H to work two jobs (all day out of the house then come home and clean it and 2) it would be a sure fire way to get my H to distance himself from me emotionally and we all know where that could lead.

On the other hand, I often see posts about how men want respect. Let me tell you, if my H wants respect, he has to deserve it. It's not just, you're the man, I look up to you. Everyone is accountable for their actions. Selfish behavior, for example, does not increase the amount of respect I have for my H, it diminishes it.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

The male/female squabbling is of course going to be magnified 10x on a site like TAM which draws people with marriage problems, especially cheating. You name the problem in marriage, and if you google it, TAM will be at the top of the hit list. IRL there isn't this much displayed animosity toward the opposite sex. When we get together with our married friends, and even our families, when the women tend to separate a bit from the men, for us women we talk more about the funny, pain in the butt things our partners do rather than the sexist type stuff thats discussed here. We do sometimes discuss how to raise the temperature in the bedroom, how to get what you want from your partner, and how to get partners to pop the questions. But even these topics are very light hearted and yes, humorous.

As for for feminism I truly believe in equal rights for men and women. But I would never call myself a feminist because I don't want to be associated with feminism. Most (NOT, I repeat NOT all) of the women I know who profess to be feminist are judgmental, b!tchy, condescending to women who don't hold their view and don't want what they want out of life. I see a lot of that on TAM also of women who are professed feminists. Again, not ALL, just a lot.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't live a sheltered life by any means, but the only place I ever see misogyny or misandry rear their heads is on the internet, the comfy home of extremism.

IRL, people seem quite a bit more reasonable.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> As for for feminism I truly believe in equal rights for men and women. But I would never call myself a feminist because I don't want to be associated with feminism. Most (NOT, I repeat NOT all) of the women I know who profess to be feminist are judgmental, b!tchy, condescending to women who don't hold their view and don't want what they want out of life. I see a lot of that on TAM also of women who are professed feminists. Again, not ALL, just a lot.


That took courage to write, committed! 

I think of myself as a feminist, and appreciate a lot of what self-described feminists say. But my own life is incredibly conservative. I have been supported by a man for the last 19 years (have not earned more than a few hundred dollars, teaching French, since then). I have breastfed 5 children for at least a few years apiece, and have homeschooled them all. Pleasing my husband and children is pretty much the purpose of my life. And yet I still think of myself as a feminist.

One very nice gal on TAM told me once that feminism can feel like being the best man we can be, lol. Somehow feminism needs to celebrate the female and not just strive to outdo the male. Listening, seeking to understand, affirming, and offering an alternative, 3rd way option could be part of this.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

GTdad said:


> I don't live a sheltered life by any means, but the only place I ever see misogyny or misandry rear their heads is on the internet, the comfy home of extremism.
> 
> IRL, people seem quite a bit more reasonable.


:iagree:
There is an old saying that goes:

_" When you're a sledgehammer, everything looks like a block of concrete.."_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> EleGirl...there is absolutely nothing you have said that I can disagree with except in your ending, feeling that I would suddenly change my feelings and call myself a feminist if my H died and I had to go out working.. I work a little now but it's nothing I could support a family on..let alone myself..
> 
> Sure that could happen and if it does, we have life insurance/ a large chunk of $$ saved, more than he earns in a year plus...I will also get so much from his work the way it is set up....we've been debt free for yrs.. we own a nice chunk of property.....I would hardly be penniless if anything...I'd have to watch out some man is not trying to USE ME -to get his hands on what I own...if I started dating -cause I'd want this all to fall to our children...
> 
> We have planned well...my biggest fear would be getting health insurance... I am a worrier by nature & I probably couldn't sleep at night, if I felt ANYTHING had the possibility to leave me destitute.. Also, I am not used to a high class lifestyle , I know how to live on little..


It’s good that you have planned well. When I said that I was talking more about the population at large. Often times people plan well and then something happens that blows all that out of the water. We see it here on TAM all the time. A woman married 31 years, SAHM while the children were growing up, whose husband suddenly turns on her, starts cheating, moves all their assets to include insurance where she cannot get to them. The stories like this pop here daily. It’s not unusual at all.


SimplyAmorous said:


> I am surely not against men & women earning the same amount of money for the same work done, having the right to vote or any such thing.... those things needed to be fought for.. ABSOLUTELY....
> 
> Yet..I highly doubt anyone here is going to convince ME to call myself a feminist....I just don't care for the word...it has been tainted ...*but I'll stand up and say I believe in equal rights for ALL*...


A social movement is not defined by the radial extremes who have tried to use it to spring board their agenda. Why is it assumed by many that the most radical elements are the ones that define it?

Whether you use the work “feminist” or not, if you support these concepts then you support feminism as that’s all feminism is. We don’t have another word for the rest of it… that’s why I use radical feminism. Because at least that leaves a place in the world for women like me and a large portion of the women here who have no problem stating that we support feminism: women's rights on the grounds of political, social, legal, and economic equality to men. I’m not ashamed to state that I believe in these things. I’ve lived in countries in which women have little to no rights of any kind. I’ve seen what the world is like for women without a strong social support for women’s rights. It’s a pretty ugly world. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't look at this the same way you do.. I surely do NOT look at such men as innocent..but I also would reject such men pushing me to do something I was not comfortable with ....not pander to them...plenty of fish in the sea...


I agree with you on this. If a guy that I’m dating starts pressuring me for sex before I’m ready, he’s gone from my life. However I don’t think that women are more ‘guilty’ than men in the sex game. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> How I feel about this is very different from what you described.. I feel women have a tremendous amount of power ..yet they freely GIVE IT UP too quickly to men ... why do WE do that?? We pander to men (should we blame the men for this or ourselves - I would blame myself personally -it is not the normal perspective I suppose).....* I actually feel how women behave as a whole can change men as a whole*..


I agree with this, except that I do not blame myself when others act badly. I have known of women who give up their power just to get the guy. But I know a lot more women who do not sleep around and act like this. At issue is the assumption that every other woman is out acting badly. Most women, 80%, never cheat on their husband. Most women find one partner and stick with him. Most women have a pretty good, strong sense of themselves and do not just give it up to any man who pressures them.

There have always been ‘loose’ women. In past generations, not all women were chaste wives. There has always been a fairly large group of women who slept around with men. Society kept these women in their place. Men could move easily between their chaste wife and the women they went to for fun.

What feminism has done is to make so that if a woman does have premarital sex, she’s not relegated for the rest of her life to be a shamed woman.

I think that the promiscuity of today has more to do with popular culture. Greed is what drives popular culture because some people make a lot of money pushing this stuff.


SimplyAmorous said:


> BUt you know what, THAT's a RADICAL view right there......and No, I surely don't see the day where vast amounts of women are going to say "NO" to sleeping with men too quickly .... but if they DID...you would see the day men would begin to change.. and be better men, more willing to come our direction...more respect would be given to us... they would conform to win our affections...


Well I would not say that it’s radical. I don’t know anyone who thinks that women should just sleep around and give in to any guy who asks for it. I do think that a lot of people today get sexual in their relationships too quickly, long before they actually know much about the person. 

We are a very mixed society. There are some segments of our society in which men today are as responsible and good as in past generations. It’s not because women are the catalyst for making them do the right things. It’s because that’s how they were raised. I think that this the largest segment of the population. 
There are other segments of the population in which the vast majority of the men seem to take no responsibility for anything. I don’t pin that only the women. Women are not responsible for making me act like adults.


SimplyAmorous said:


> This write up explains HOW I feel about these things.. it even mentions "feminine charm" ...


I agree with what is written about here will work with some men. But I disagree that if a women uses her ‘power’ she can own any man. What this says is that in every case in which a man cheats, leaves his wife, mistreats her, etc. it’s her fault because she did not use her natural female power to own and control him. I’m sorry but the world is not that simple. Men are not that simple.




SimplyAmorous said:


> As to the book.. she suggested this...
> 
> The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women: Jessica Valenti: Books..now I have no doubt there are plenty of things in this book that I would AGREE with...the religious right absolutely does go TOO FAR.. but does this book allow for a Romantic view of sexuality.. for practicing one's faith.. I doubt it.. it wants all women to conform to the new program-as if we don't , we are holding back feminist progress or something....and that I can NOT get behind.. (I have not read it but ya know, I am very curious.. when it sells for a penny, I will probably buy it !)...I am not against reading anything , in fact I ENJOY listening to the opposite side .. it challenges my thinking ...


I read the reviews on Amazon. It doesn’t sound like it’s telling all women to be slvts. From the reviews it sounds like an interesting book. But it’s hard to discuss a book based on its title and assumptions being made about it.
A book that talks about sexual issues does not need to address a romantic view of sex. That can be a completely different subject. Here is one topic that one of the reviews brings up that the book covers:
----------quote--------
One thing Jessica points out that I never really thought about before is that "...young women who are sexually exploited are often young women of color from low-income communities who are perceived as inherently loose, unredeemable and hopeless." If you think about it this is true, because you have to be a "certain" type of girl to be thought of as a victim of sexual crime in the media (young, pretty, usually white - definitely a virgin). Otherwise, the woman is thought to be complicit in her attack. (she's on the streets anyways, she likes it, she's a **** already...etc). 
----------quote--------



SimplyAmorous said:


> This is another book out there ...this one on my shelf.... one thing is certain.. these are 2 vastly different world views on what to teach our young children about sex...
> 
> Hooked: New Science on How Casual Sex is Affecting Our Children: Books


This sounds like an interesting book as well.

You and I have not read the other book so we don’t know exactly what it is saying to teach children. However, based on the reviews, the virginity book is not saying that we should teach teens to run out and have sex. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> As for me , I want them to learn of ALL VIEWS (did a thread on that here *>>*
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...exual-views-have-they-changed-over-years.html ...to be aware that people want different things, to not be naive in this.. also about safe sex, STD's, some can render a girl infertile (I consider this a pretty big deal)... I would not withhold my children from ANY sex education class, I am not afraid of them learning...I am not in the camp of the religious right at all...
> 
> But I want them to be armed with wisdom to make right choices..to understand fully the emotional ramifications also... they say our brains are not fully developed till our mid 20's... yet today it seems we encourage them to get plenty of experience sexually yrs before this, so sowing wild oats is a right of passage for everyone? ...Is there not a role for us as parents to equip our children to handle these yrs making right choices ... not to repress (by any means- no one could say that in our house!)...but also not to jump in too quickly where they will be left dumped, alone, emotionally devastated , to where they learn to "detach" from the act as well...it's a deep subject...not one to take lightly and just throw birth control at.... that is my position.


I agree, kids need to be exposed to a wide range of views. And I agree that there is a problem with teens being promiscuous. I think it harms them. 

I’m not sure what that has to do with a discussion of feminism as feminism is not about encouraging promiscuity in young people.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thank you, Ele and SA, for that exchange. Very interesting, on both sides.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Most of these debates become infuriating then tiresome.

I think the average person believes in equal rights for both sexes. It's the ones on the extreme fringe who scream loudly and so they're usually the first ones heard. So then you have people of both sexes hearing only what the screamers want people to hear about their cause. You have extreme feminists parading around as balanced feminists,you have woman haters parading around as champions of men's rights,etc making the situation tougher to gauge. 

Feminism gave me the right to vote,work where I want or stay home,divorce my husband if he's abusive or a cheater,be child free, live alone,and MANY other very good things. 

Frankly,I'm sick of a**holes walking around telling everyone they're a feminist when they have NO IDEA what being a feminist means for real. I'm sick of a**holes walking around telling everyone they're for men's rights when they just hate anyone without a penis. They have no idea what the men's rights movement is about. None of these movements originated in hate. Unfortunately,they became about hate and determining which is the better gender. I feel part of that is the media influence and the internet.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I live in a very liberal area and I do not see blatant misogyny or misandry around me at all. There may be underlying currents in people's personal beliefs but it seems to be something we don't talk about. The liberal nature of my area also accepts freaks, geeks, hippies, gays, trans people, and basically any other walk of life. When people visit from other cities, they are always astounded at:

1. The cultural diversity present here (which they sometimes experience as "wow, there are a lot of freaky looking people here!")

2. How friendly everyone is to each other.

I have literally never had a real life discussion with anyone about misogyny or misandry. They are non-issues in my actual life. Most people love others and the opposite sex. The ones who don't, I would never associate with.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> It’s good that you have planned well. When I said that I was talking more about the population at large. Often times people plan well and then something happens that blows all that out of the water. We see it here on TAM all the time. A woman married 31 years, SAHM while the children were growing up, whose husband suddenly turns on her, starts cheating, moves all their assets to include insurance where she cannot get to them. The stories like this pop here daily. It’s not unusual at all.


 I know it's not unusual , I see it here all the time too.. I consider it as much of a risk as many other things -that others may not think it is a big deal. *Just as some pick their battles, some pick their Risks*... if that makes any sense.. 

If I married a guy who was a philanderer or a Bad boy , I'd be *very worried* he would get bored and go back to his philandering ways...and I'd end up in a mess/ destitute.....and I must add....some religious Fundamentalist Men are even worse then those...controlling/ abusive & hide it very well to outsiders.......it's not that I have a bias on this... character is everything...do people REALLY CHANGE ALL THAT MUCH .. from when they were dating? 

Or are they THAT good at faking it, pulling the wool over our eyes or are we blinded by Love too quickly.. 



> A social movement is not defined by the radial extremes who have tried to use it to spring board their agenda. Why is it assumed by many that the most radical elements are the ones that define it?


 So you want to take the word BACK and redeem it. It's noble.. and I think that's great.. 

The subject is highly complicated to me..they have all kinds of various names to slap on feminists.. "sex positive feminists".. last night I found an article speaking how she was a "sex negative feminist" and I thought "What the hell is [email protected]#"... we got 1st waves, 2nd waves, 3rd waves...do you know how LOST I AM on all of this!!.. 

I have watched you tube videos on both sides.. all I can tell you is.. I personally resonate more with those who are speaking AGAINST the hard core feminists.. that's all.. sounds like you do also.. then we're on the same page...



> Whether you use the work “feminist” or not, if you support these concepts then you support feminism as that’s all feminism is. We don’t have another word for the rest of it… that’s why I use radical feminism. Because at least that leaves a place in the world for women like me and a large portion of the women here who have no problem stating that we support feminism: women's rights on the grounds of political, social, legal, and economic equality to men. I’m not ashamed to state that I believe in these things. I’ve lived in countries in which women have little to no rights of any kind. I’ve seen what the world is like for women without a strong social support for women’s rights. It’s a pretty ugly world.


 I am not ashamed to state anything I feel.. I just don't want to give the wrong impression for those who are similar to me and conjure up for radical views in their heads when they hear the term.. Plenty of people do the same thing in other areas, if they hear one is a christian (they associate Prosperity gospel, Benny Hinn nut job) , a Catholic (we think of Gay molesting Priests)... A liberal (I think of those who don't like conservatives).. when people here Conservative, they think of those who look down on Liberals..is it not so.. I call myself a Free Thinker, and and independent to not fall into any of those things.. (because I really AM in the middle of all of these things, I don't see everyting in Black and white, life is NEVER this simple).. 



> I agree with you on this. If a guy that I’m dating starts pressuring me for sex before I’m ready, he’s gone from my life. However I don’t think that women are more ‘guilty’ than men in the sex game.


 And I didn't say that.. I just hold our own personal responsibility in what we choose to do...and the ramifications ...very high.. That is how I parent, I don't want my daughter coming to me claiming she was some victim when she had a choice.. understand the consequences.. just as I Do and have contemplated the RISK of my being "just a Stay at Home Mom".. if it all comes to bite my ass .. I will have noone to blame but myself.. and I WILL.. 

But I have chosen this RISK , evaluated it and am OK with this one in my life. 



> I agree with this, except that I do not blame myself when others act badly.


 I would not blame myself for a man being an A-hole either, however I would blame myself for jumping in too soon ...because I know that is not wise.. ..we are all taught that is not wise.... aren't we... ..ya know.. it all depends on what a woman wants.. 



> There have always been ‘loose’ women. In past generations, not all women were chaste wives. There has always been a fairly large group of women who slept around with men. Society kept these women in their place. Men could move easily between their chaste wife and the women they went to for fun.


 Those men were not good husbands and I am sure many of those wives were prudes too.. and this we can blame on religious teachings to some extent, I wouldn't disagree with anyone.. things do need to change...bridge the gap. I am all for WOMEN having pleasure and learning all about sexuality. 



> What feminism has done is to make so that if a woman does have premarital sex, she’s not relegated for the rest of her life to be a shamed woman.


 You don't feel the tide has turned and now it is so commonplace that those who aren't having sex get the ridicule -- they do in high school... even on our more conservative town so it seems. 



> I think that the promiscuity of today has more to do with popular culture. Greed is what drives popular culture because some people make a lot of money pushing this stuff.


 :iagree: and peer pressure and Hormones.. which will always BE.. 



> We are a very mixed society. There are some segments of our society in which men today are as responsible and good as in past generations. It’s not because women are the catalyst for making them do the right things. It’s because that’s how they were raised. I think that this the largest segment of the population.


 It has everything to do with how we are raised, what we saw growing up and the death of the marriage and family sure is not helping matters.. most children today see no point in ever getting married.. it is wrong for me to say ... I think this is SAD... that's my position.. 



> There are other segments of the population in which the vast majority of the men seem to take no responsibility for anything. I don’t pin that only the women. Women are not responsible for making me act like adults.


 Many of those did not have any mentors or Decent Father figures.. statistically this is true, isn't it? I feel wholly bad for future generations where we are headed, for my own kids, what they have to wade through in love.. 



> I agree with what is written about here will work with some men. But I disagree that if a women uses her ‘power’ she can own any man. What this says is that in every case in which a man cheats, leaves his wife, mistreats her, etc. it’s her fault because she did not use her natural female power to own and control him. I’m sorry but the world is not that simple. Men are not that simple.


 I agree with you. The more Pick up artist stuff spattered all over the internet just makes men want to toy & keep moving on -it all becomes a game to get her in bed.. any man who has a mindset like this- is not in it for LOVE, even if he was capable, his views can be tainted....and really some should never marry.. it's not in them to be with one person. 



> I read the reviews on Amazon. It doesn’t sound like it’s telling all women to be slvts. From the reviews it sounds like an interesting book. But it’s hard to discuss a book based on its title and assumptions being made about it.


 Yes, they are just assumptions... I can only speak of the book I have....even it is a bit too conservative for me... yet I feel things can be learned from their studies that are not being talked about in sex education.. and I find this a shame.. 



> I agree, kids need to be exposed to a wide range of views. And I agree that there is a problem with teens being promiscuous. I think it harms them.
> 
> *I’m not sure what that has to do with a discussion of feminism as feminism is not about encouraging promiscuity in young people.*


 It was like I mentioned in my 1st post.. in the area of SAHM's and more conservative views..if one took a statistical study on Feminists, from my own personal experience (and that is all we have, right).. I have felt the least accepted from these camps.. for feeling as I do....in those 2 areas...

So I dared share... it's not that I have a desire to alienate myself & put a target on my back.. just wanted to contribute to this thread.. 

Just wanted to check in, we are on a little family vacation right now -this was too long!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> *I just hold our own personal responsibility in what we choose to do...and the ramifications ...very high.. That is how I parent, I don't want my daughter coming to me claiming she was some victim when she had a choice.. understand the consequences.. *just as I Do and have contemplated the RISK of my being "just a Stay at Home Mom".. if it all comes to bite my ass .. I will have noone to blame but myself.. and I WILL..
> 
> *But I have chosen this RISK , evaluated it and am OK with this one in my life. *


And this is where i find myself too.

I consider myself a humanist.
I am allergic to the counterfeit , I take responsibility for myself and i love people.
I don't see myself as more privileged than anybody else because of my gender , genetics , race , social status or education.
I treat all human beings as equal.
I don't hold myself responsible for ANYBODY'S actions, but i respond appropriately and positively whenever there's a need for action to help another.

I don't need to identify with any movement, religious or otherwise to prove myself worthy of being a " good man ", " real man " or even " alpha man."
Show me a person who's down, disenfranchised and looking for help and I'll be there to help them on their feet.

I know who I am , and my values sacrosanct.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "wow, there are a lot of freaky looking people here!


$20 you live in Austin............am I right?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

LOL! What is so funny about this is that my city is sometimes called "the other Austin". Can you guess? I'll give you another hint..."keep it weird" is a slogan in both of our cities and apparently there is a fight over who started it first.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> LOL! What is so funny about this is that my city is sometimes called "the other Austin". Can you guess? I'll give you another hint..."keep it weird" is a slogan in both of our cities and apparently there is a fight over who started it first.


Portland. Why did I think you lived in the South for some reason? :scratchhead:


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I can tell you that there are books on the more conservative, or anti-feminist side of the spectrum that are downright offensive. For example ones that say that women have no need for orgasm. That feminism has ruined women because it taught us that we should enjoy sex.


Could you name some of those books? I can't imagine anything like that being written in the past 20 years.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

Nothing to add here other than I would like to subscribe to her newsletter and that everything in this post is yes.


ScarletBegonias said:


> Most of these debates become infuriating then tiresome.
> 
> I think the average person believes in equal rights for both sexes. It's the ones on the extreme fringe who scream loudly and so they're usually the first ones heard. So then you have people of both sexes hearing only what the screamers want people to hear about their cause. You have extreme feminists parading around as balanced feminists,you have woman haters parading around as champions of men's rights,etc making the situation tougher to gauge.
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Omego said:


> This is what I wanted to ask about. You said that problem was cultural (I'm referring to your post on the other thread). Do you feel that the cultural trend is skewing towards women behaving more with a "chip on their shoulder" and having too many expectations? I've seen this kind of attitude myself but not that often and certainly not in my entourage. None of my friends act like this, to the contrary, they basically put up with a lot.
> 
> For my part, I wouldn't try acting like that because 1) I don't see why it would be fair to expect the H to work two jobs (all day out of the house then come home and clean it and 2) it would be a sure fire way to get my H to distance himself from me emotionally and we all know where that could lead.
> 
> On the other hand, I often see posts about how men want respect. Let me tell you, if my H wants respect, he has to deserve it. It's not just, you're the man, I look up to you. Everyone is accountable for their actions. Selfish behavior, for example, does not increase the amount of respect I have for my H, it diminishes it.


Cultural. Yes I believe that today's culture has produced more maladjusted and extremists view. IN BOTH SEXES! Yes, I do believe that more women today have a "chip on their shoulder". 

As committed4ever said. "Most (NOT, I repeat NOT all) of the women I know who profess to be feminist are judgmental, b!tchy, condescending to women who don't hold their view and don't want what they want out of life. I see a lot of that on TAM also of women who are professed feminists. Again, not ALL, just a lot."

I see this more everyday. I tend to see more and more women leaning towards the more radical form of feminism. 

I have a mother who stepped out on my sperm donor. He had it coming as he was a waste of air, but she still chose to cheat.I have also dealt with a lying cheating ex. I also have 3 sons and a nephew that are all either dating or very close to it. The eldest child as already had to deal with a promiscuous lying little floozy that not only ran his name through the mud, but also tried getting him in trouble with the law by running away. The nephew had a skinbag that tried nailing him on false paternity charges. She was screwing 5 other guys at the same time. 

And then finally we have the wife's cousin. She has had 4 children to 4 different fathers (one miscarriage). She was highly promiscuous in high school, and never really quit. She moved away for a long time and then moved back about 3 hours away. At my niece's wedding she met a friend of friend of my niece's. So, after the wedding is said and done she goes out on the town with this guy and his male friend. I find out after the fact, because we end up watching her kids. (Which I love to death. Those little girls are awesome.) I told her on her wedding day that if she messed up, I would be the first person there to make sure she paid the price. What I should have done was ratted her out when it happened, but my wife convinced me not too. Sure enough, after she got her 4th kid, it wasn't a year later, she started stepping out on him. I also kept my word. The guy is one hell of a provider and adopted 2 kids that were not his own. He works all day and comes home and does about 95% of the house work and child rearing.

And now we get to the other side of the coin. I work in a male dominated field. The ratio of men to women as probably close to 1000/1. Most of the women in the wind turbine industry are usually found in the office setting. Very few are actual techs. I cover all 50 states, but only about 1/3 or a little more have wind farms. I would say probably 60-70% of the married guys out there traveling are cheaters. I fell pretty generous on those numbers. It's probably much higher. I would say that a good portion of the single guys think they are entitled to a good time. Lots of bragging and out chasing tail. So yes, the sense of entitlement runs very deep in both sexes. I have had guys try to get me to hang out or go have a beer and that kind of garbage. I just walk away. It's pretty damn3d disgusting. I actually had one guy ask me why I wouldn't hang out with him. I straight told him that if he could betray the one person that he professed to love and to forsake all others, how long before he put a knife in my back. 


"having too many expectations?" Yes. I think both sexes have too many and too high expectations. I personally think that couples should have to take marriage classes and pre-marital counseling. I think a dating period that lasts 2 years or so would help out as well. It helps get rid of all those pesky chemical responses.

As far as respect goes. It's earned, not given. I give everyone the base amount of respect. I let their actions and words determine from that point how much respect they get. I have a hard time giving anyone respect that won't work for it, or lacks respect for themselves. 


Am i perfect? Hell no. I didn't get any guidance on much of anything in life. The only things that my sperm donor ever showed me was how to lie, steal, and cheat, at any cost. I have done a lot of raising myself. By no means, am I tooting my own horn, but I am a lot better person that what I was taught to be. Sorry if I get wound up over the "evil men" comments and attitude. 

There are other things that have shaped my views as well. This is just a portion. That's why I made the comment about JLD's post. Her personal experience has shaped her views, as mine have shaped my views.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think living together for 2-3 years would be a good idea, too. You need to really know the person you are committing to, and you don't really know someone until you live with them.

Totally agree on earning respect, and having to do it daily.

I think the expectations are partly from how much more money people have nowadays than they used to. People can afford more, and more is expected. Prince/Princessification syndrome, as others have mentioned.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

ntamph said:


> $20 you live in Austin............am I right?


Off Topic


I work in Texas a LOT. That is also where I will retire. If you ask, more than a few Texans will tell you that they wished Austin would relocate to another state. Just leave the LONGHORNS. 

Hook em

I agree.


Back on topic


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Windwalker said:


> And now we get to the other side of the coin. I work in a male dominated field. The ratio of men to women as probably close to 1000/1. Most of the women in the wind turbine industry are usually found in the office setting. Very few are actual techs. I cover all 50 states, but only about 1/3 or a little more have wind farms. I would say probably 60-70% of the married guys out there traveling are cheaters. I fell pretty generous on those numbers. It's probably much higher. I would say that a good portion of the single guys think they are entitled to a good time. Lots of bragging and out chasing tail. So yes, the sense of entitlement runs very deep in both sexes. I have had guys try to get me to hang out or go have a beer and that kind of garbage. I just walk away. It's pretty damn3d disgusting. I actually had one guy ask me why I wouldn't hang out with him. I straight told him that if he could betray the one person that he professed to love and to forsake all others, how long before he put a knife in my back.
> 
> .


I really had to comment on this.
When I was single I had a best friend who I used to hang out with. I hooked him up with a female friend of mine he went crazy over.
She helped him build his business , bought two vehicles for him , etc. 
then one day she told me he hit her , and she suspected he was cheating. I told her to leave him, but me and him remained friends. 
To this day , she remained single. Has a great job, owns two valuable properties , but I think he damaged her emotionally.
Then, he met another girl and they got engaged. I had already got married and he was my " bestman."

He got engaged to that girl , and while engaged to her, got her pregnant as well as two other girls. She came to me and began to cry , telling me she was going to leave him. I convinced her to stay.

Years later, me and him started a lucrative business contracting in the oilfields. He stabbed me in the back , and we split.
I never spoke to him again.

But in hindsight , I realized that he was morally bankrupt and had a false sense of entitlement. He was a manipulator.

There were also women I've been around in the past , that exhibit the same tendencies but I usually spotted it early and dumped them.

Thing is we all tend to be biased for our own gender , but in the end , dishonesty can only hurt oneself.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

jld said:


> That took courage to write, committed!
> 
> I think of myself as a feminist, and appreciate a lot of what self-described feminists say. But my own life is incredibly conservative. I have been supported by a man for the last 19 years (have not earned more than a few hundred dollars, teaching French, since then). I have breastfed 5 children for at least a few years apiece, and have homeschooled them all. Pleasing my husband and children is pretty much the purpose of my life. And yet I still think of myself as a feminist.


JLD, the self-declared feminists that I have come to like and respect are mostly virtual and mostly TAM. You, Ele, and Pink come to mind and I know there are a few others on TAM that I can't recall. IRL ... not so much.

(There are many, many more TAMers that I like but i don't know if they are self-declared feminists or not.) 

Anyway, I really do appreciate the exchanges between posters on this thread. That was very thought provoking and a respectable exchange from both sides. I wish we could have more debates like this on TAM.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Thought I'd chime in. 

I don't believe radical femisists are a hate group. 

I do believe that women's concerns are brushed off and belittled, and every time we discuss a woman's issue, we are made to discuss men too. 

Discussing female rape- we are asked what about male rape? 

Women who have been abused- we are asked what about male abuse? And so on. 

There seems to be huge backlash against feminism, and ridiculous idea that feminism has gone too far. 

Here is an interesting piece on rape culture from a man that I found really interesting https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c

And this
WHY I'M A...FEMINIST *gasp* - YouTube

I think her take on it is awesome.  

And her take on Elliot Roger. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPFcspwbrq8&list=PLTXiNEUzXWKTfNYKThSk-kmJdf7AJRP5K&bpctr=1401800772


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I like how this former radical feminist put it.

Basically I agree with her  take on both feminism / radical feminism and the MRA.

Why I'm Anti-Feminist and why Feminism does NOT equal equality (

A clear, concise and logical stance imo, especially the first five minutes of her commentary.

I've seen and worked with feminist down here before and what I see online is not the type of feminism activism we have down here. 

Down here feminist are very influential and highly respected. For eg,
We recently had an ammendment to our domestic violence act to reflect the reality that men are sometimes victims, and to guide judges in their sentencing of women who are perpetrators. The research for that bill was done by feminist.

What I see online , looks to me like Orwellian doublespeak.
But the fact that, the conversations are happening , is good.

I don't think any side, MRA or Feminist has any God given , social / moral right to labeling each other as a " hate group" in order to muzzle and shut them down.
People need to grow up , learn how to disagree, even vehemently disagree and still respect another person's right to free speech.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Here is an interesting piece on rape culture from a man that I found really interesting https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c
> 
> And this
> WHY I'M A...FEMINIST *gasp* - YouTube
> ...


Thank you, LittleDeer, for those two pieces. I wasn't able to see the third one (it said unavailable; I will have to fish around for it more).

I really liked that first piece. That man reminds me of my husband. He was sensitive to women's fears and feelings, and so supportive and non-judgmental. I really hope people will take time to read it. 

My husband and four of our kids are leaving for France this weekend, and ds15 and I will be left home. We are thinking about taking a road trip, but I am nervous about it. I would feel totally different if dh were going to be with us. I would not think about safety at all. I would just be thinking about what we were going to see.

But since I am going to be doing this alone with ds15, I am apprehensive. What if we have car trouble? What if we find ourselves in an area that does not feel safe? What if someone knocks on our door at the hotel? What if, what if? 

I am sure other women may not have these worries at all, and that is great. But I have them. And hearing that ten women on TAM have travelled cross country by themselves does not necessarily make me feel safer. 

Reading that piece by that man is reassuring. Not all men are like what I fear. My dh is not the only kind and caring man out there. Very good.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

As with most controversial topics, I am torn. The thread that inspired this one was the first time in my life I had ever debated/spoken about feminism, misogyny, misandry et al.

Even when it comes to politics, my beliefs have always spun somewhere in the middle. When it comes to my own family, relationships, how I raise my kids, same thing. 

I am not legally married by choice but value monogamy, fidelity, honor, integrity and commitment associated with marriage. I enjoy putting on make-up, smelling sweet and wearing heels and dresses to accentuate my femininity on one day. Jeans, sneakers and a t-shirt, getting my hands dirty and chopping fire wood the next. I am not religious but encourage my kids to learn both sides and have taken them to church, read the Bible and taught them how to pray. I have worked full-time with a child in daycare and I have also been a SAHM... etc.

I believe in men's rights AND women's rights. I feel that men and women ARE equal but this doesn't mean *the same*. I believe both "movements" can bring progress but both can also be abusive depending on how far the pendulum swings in either direction.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I've seen and worked with feminist down here before and what I see online is not the type of feminism activism we have down here.
> 
> People need to grow up , learn how to disagree, even vehemently disagree and still respect another person's right to *free speech.*


I have heard similar things about feminists in France. They get the job done, while remaining . . . feminine. 

The free speech issue is starting to worry me. I, too, am concerned about what some of the PUA people wrote about Elliott Rodgers, as referenced in the blog FW linked on the misogyny thread yesterday. Those comments were frightening, quite frankly. And I am glad people are watching out for them.

But I think there needs to be a great emphasis on understanding why people would write those things, and then trying to heal that dysfunction. Just forbidding it is not going to solve the problem. Those things then just go underground.

A few hours from us is a very liberal city, and dh and I used to belong to an organization based out of there. Very intelligent people. Devoted to their kids and partners. But very narrow in their views. There was only one way to think, on so many things. I felt like I was always self-censoring. That gets tiring. We obviously did not really fit.

And yet, I certainly don't feel like we fit in the very conservative circles we know, either. Way too openminded for that.

I think there needs to be a whole lot more just taking people as they are, trying to understand them, and gently pointing out and explaining disagreements. I think that is leadership. It takes a lot of patience.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> I believe in men's rights AND women's rights.


I hear you. I have grown a lot on TAM, and one of the areas in which I am changing is that I am starting to see that men do not have as much power as I have always thought. The men in my life always seemed to have so much. My dad, my husband, my brothers-in-law. I have mostly been around traditional relationships, I guess. That is the basis for my worldview.

But reading on TAM challenges that. When I challenge men to be more responsible with their power, I assume they have power to begin with. Some really may not. And then I assume they can develop the inner security to get it, but some may not be able to. This is hard for me to wrap my head around. But it may indeed be true. 

I have always taken up for women because in my life experience, women have been the ones who really did need the support. But not every woman is like the women I have known. That is kind of a new reality for me. Some women are mean. They are not honest. They are selfish. It's not that I have never known women like that, but they are not the ones who come to mind when I think of "women."


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> And this is where i find myself too.
> 
> I consider myself a humanist.
> I am allergic to the counterfeit , I take responsibility for myself and i love people.
> ...














> *Windwalker said: *Am i perfect? Hell no. I didn't get any guidance on much of anything in life. The only things that my sperm donor ever showed me was how to lie, steal, and cheat, at any cost. I have done a lot of raising myself. By no means, am I tooting my own horn, but I am a lot better person that what I was taught to be. Sorry if I get wound up over the "evil men" comments and attitude.


 I can relate to this myself....when a child has been really hurt by the choices of a parent, some vow to NEVER go down that path....we learn what NOT to do...some lessons are branded on us...

I watched my Mother make some atrocious choices in her life and the aftermath that followed.. it pretty much destroyed her life...my greatest fear was to turn out like her...



Caribbean Man said:


> Thing is we all tend to be biased for our own gender , but in the end , dishonesty can only hurt oneself.


I am not biased for my own gender.......in my personal experience...I have been more HURT by women over the years..... whether it be relatives...even friends... Even in Elementary .. I started a new school..I must have looked at some girl the wrong way in the bathroom and she wanted to beat me up after school.... I was scared to death... who comes to my rescue...a boy! 

I also feel my Husband is a better person than I am.... We have 5 sons, they are good boys (no bullying , treat girls with respect)... I seen my Mother hurt my father...marrying a man she didn't love, then not wanting to have sex with him ....they divorce & she suddenly was giving it up to all sorts of losers.....some even beat her up ....I could have been raped in that atmosphere.. my Father called her in a rage & took me off of her. He probably saved me too... My Step Mother was very mean to me.. I used to write on the walls How much I hated her... (this wasn't helping my view of women for sure).. though I had a wonderful Grandmother next door ... I had GOOD friends who loved me like a sister.. 

Then H walked into my life.. His example of a man has been so good..that I literally have to separate my own experience ...when hearing stories here because I tend to look through the eyes of how I HURT my husband...and the men being somewhat LIKE my husband when I read posts.. (Loving, patient , kind , faithful)... and I know this is not always true of other men..

Our experiences in life surely shape how we view the opposite sex....no doubt.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I can relate to this myself....when a child has been really hurt by the choices of a parent, some vow to NEVER go down that path....*we learn what NOT to do...some lessons are branded on us...*


I can very much relate to this. There were good things about my mother and I remember her with love. For all of my mother's strengths, she was very, very flawed and made terrible choices. She herself came from a home wrought with emotional, physical, sexual and spiritual abuse and was very broken because of that. In fact, her siblings and mother are also very broken and hence, I don't communicate with them. Even opted to live under the care of social services, instead of family when she died because of that.

So I did raise myself since 13 years of age. Though in honesty, I was very much on my own before she passed. Even as a child I saw the error in some things - though see more as I reminisce about my childhood and reflect on how that affects my own choices as an adult and how I parent my own children. Most of my values are my own - developed from finding good role models and "surrogate" mothers and fathers along the way, striving for personal development and taking my mother's example of what not to do and wanting to do better for myself and my kids. 

I've learned a lot about our family history and much of it contains abuses and dysfunction. My goal has always been that it stops with me. So far, so good.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> What I find odd is that generally I do not see these issues in my real life. No one is arguing about this. Everyone I talk to seems to accept equality of the sexes. Most do not have huge chips about the other gender.
> 
> But come here to TAM and it's crazy.


In addition to the points others have made, I suspect this is in some part due to the improvements in culture. Sexist jokes and comments are no longer officially tolerated and most (in not all) major companies have official policies prohibiting them. Much like other -isms, I suspect there are at least some people who think that way yet don't voice it in the general public and strive to appear reasonable, as they know doing otherwise will harm them.

That is bad, in that it has not changed these minds, but I think overall it is good as it has reduced the harm these folks cause and hopefully reduces the influence they have over others coming up.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I see sexism in my family but in smaller ways. My FIL, is in many ways a great man. He is hands-down my FAVOURITE person in my spouse's family and my kids adore him too. However, when it comes to certain things, is _just a bit_ sexist.

At the cottage for instance, he doesn't like it when us women take the boat out without one of the men on board. While a big part of it is because he feels protective of us and wants us to be safe, another part of it is that he doesn't feel we are capable of handling a mechanical problem or emergency should one occur. (FYI, When it did occur, and the guy on board wasn't able to re-start the motor, us girls rowed that boat back to shore while said guy unsuccessfully tinkered with the motor). 

Another example is he taught both of his sons how to do car repairs, their own oil changes, change tires, spark plugs, autobody etc. However, he didn't teach this to his daughter even when she said she wanted to learn. He always expected that she would be with a man that could do that for her. Well, low and behold she ended up with a man that couldn't do any of that and later divorced him (for worse things than not being able to change a tire). She is nearly 40 and he just taught her two years ago what he should have back then.

Same thing with operating power tools and other typical "guy stuff". He is constantly blown away at our abilities when proven wrong but we are also up to the challenge most of the time.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Miss Taken said:


> I see sexism in my family but in smaller ways. My FIL, is in many ways a great man. He is hands-down my FAVOURITE person in my spouse's family and my kids adore him too. However, when it comes to certain things, is _just a bit_ sexist.


This makes me laugh because I remember my very complicated Grandmother. She was in may ways a feminist - her daughters were required to go to college and get a degree that would allow them to support themselves. She was a strong women who stood up for herself and for others, and took no lip from anyone. She was an integral part of running the family business, as my Grandfather was not a business man at heart.

And yet she was very sexist. The women always cooked for the holidays, while the men sat around. She was aghast when I let me wife sleep in one morning while I took our 1 year old, to the point that my wife was left to make her own breakfast. She blamed Hillary for Bill cheating, because she was clearly not taking care of things at home.

It was an incredibly odd mix of self reliance and old fashion roles. Fascinating to watch as I got older and understood more of what was happening.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> This makes me laugh because I remember my very complicated Grandmother. She was in may ways a feminist - her daughters were required to go to college and get a degree that would allow them to support themselves. She was a strong women who stood up for herself and for others, and took no lip from anyone. She was an integral part of running the family business, as my Grandfather was not a business man at heart.
> 
> And yet she was very sexist. The women always cooked for the holidays, while the men sat around. She was aghast when I let me wife sleep in one morning while I took our 1 year old, to the point that my wife was left to make her own breakfast. She blamed Hillary for Bill cheating, because she was clearly not taking care of things at home.
> 
> It was an incredibly odd mix of self reliance and old fashion roles. Fascinating to watch as I got older and understood more of what was happening.



In the (very extended family, thank goodness they're not all nutters) that I do actually talk to, we have similar rules for the holidays. Except us women do the cooking and the men have to do the dishes/clean up and pour us wine afterwards lol.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Miss Taken said:


> In the (very extended family, thank goodness they're not all nutters) that I do actually talk to, we have similar rules for the holidays. Except us women do the cooking and the men have to do the dishes/clean up and pour us wine afterwards lol.


With my grandmother, the girls did the dishes. 

Now, my mom cooks (with help from different folks at times), while the rest us get the table ready then clean up. 

Is it wrong to look back fondly at my grandmothers way of doing things?


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> With my grandmother, the girls did the dishes.
> 
> Now, my mom cooks (with help from different folks at times), while the rest us get the table ready then clean up.
> 
> Is it wrong to look back fondly at my grandmothers way of doing things?


I don't think so. I don't think all old-fashioned things are bad. I suppose there are things that even I am also "sexist" about.

Yesterday, I walked by a construction site that was making a lot of noise and getting dust and dirt all over the ground. A man walked past it before me, none of the men stopped working. 

But right before I approached the site, the men turned off the loud machinery and one of them swept the sidewalk before I approached so I wouldn't have to step in the dirt. Was it sexist of me to appreciate the old-fashioned chivalry?... should I feel guilty for blushing and enjoying that? Or should I be offended that I was placed on a pedestal and so naturally thought of a lesser being for being too fragile to sully my shoes? I certainly don't think so. I love stuff like that.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

my mother was/is a man hater. For real. She needs a man but she hates them.Maybe she hates them bc she's so dependent? Who knows. 
If I ever heard her call herself a feminist I'd probably have to fight the urge to slap her across the face for spreading that lie around 

Yet she's the first one in the kitchen slaving away while the dudes are planted on the couch not lifting a finger. She does all the laundry,ironing,etc alone. She cleans the entire house without help too. She actually criticized me bc I refused to iron shirts for my ex LOL


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> my mother was/is a man hater. For real. She needs a man but she hates them.Maybe she hates them bc she's so dependent? Who knows.
> If I ever heard her call herself a feminist I'd probably have to fight the urge to slap her across the face for spreading that lie around
> 
> Yet she's the first one in the kitchen slaving away while the dudes are planted on the couch not lifting a finger. She does all the laundry,ironing,etc alone. She cleans the entire house without help too. She actually criticized me bc I refused to iron shirts for my ex LOL


I want a strong feminist women, who wants a sharp and intelligent man. A strong and feminist woman who is empowered knowing she can lay down some bomb sex on her man and lift him greater than other women. Who wants to pay her part, who is appreciative to have a good friend. Who doesn't let people walk over her, but doesn't need to walk over someone to feel good about herself.

A strong feminist woman who believes that men and women need each other, and are more powerful when they work together. 

A strong feminist woman, who is not easily swayed by peer pressure or group think, who doesn't allow people to tear her man down because it insults her like a slap to the face.

A strong feminist woman who if she is out of work or between jobs, realizes that taking on some of the house duties and saving her man time is empowering him to be stronger in the world.

A strong feminist woman, who if her man is out of work or between jobs or it's more efficient financially for him to manage the house will not lose respect for a masculine man, taking care of his house saving her time, making her feel better and more empowered so she can improve her earning potential.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

treyvion said:


> I want a strong feminist women, who wants a sharp and intelligent man. A strong and feminist woman who is empowered knowing she can lay down some bomb sex on her man and lift him greater than other women. Who wants to pay her part, who is appreciative to have a good friend. Who doesn't let people walk over her, but doesn't need to walk over someone to feel good about herself.
> 
> A strong feminist woman who believes that men and women need each other, and are more powerful when they work together.
> 
> ...


umm...ok


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I see the clash between "feminism" and "old-fashioned sex roles" a lot too.

Women who think men and women should have the same job opportunities and earning profiles BUT believe in "chivalry" (understood as men paying for drinks/dates, opening doors, ample compliments, etc.). That is, they believe in a set of practices arising out of a certain socio-economic context but they don't want that context back.

Women who think women should be free to sleep around before marriage as much as they want BUT that men should not be selective about their long-term mates based on prior sexual history; sexual freedom but not freedom of choice based on sexuality. 

Similarly, men who want to sleep around a lot before marriage BUT don't want women to ---- who are you trying to sleep WITH? 

Etc.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

jld said:


> I think it is hard for men and women to really imagine what it is like to be in one another's shoes. It just looks so easy. All the advantages seem so obvious.
> 
> Actually, I find it quite easy to imagine what it must be like to be a man, and I can see the pros and cons - just the same as being a woman.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I appreciate hearing your thoughts, Cosmos. I am glad we agree that shutting down discussion is a bad idea.

Personally, I don't feel like I can really know what it is like being a man. I guess I can imagine it, but that is about all. I do not know what it is like from experience.

I don't even really know what it is like being another woman. I thought I did, but many women here see things differently than I do. Makes total sense, because their life experiences and personalities are different from mine.

I have had people say things to me on TAM that have really hurt at the time. They probably were indeed trying to attack me and expose my weaknesses. 

But as I have thought about what has been said to me, there is usually at least something there I can learn from, whatever their motives. _*We can learn an awful lot from criticism, if we can hear it. *_ And if nothing else, we learn what other people's insecurities are, based on how they respond to us.

How many times have people told me not all men are bad, and not all women are good? It takes a long time for some of us to change our ideas, and repeated exposure to examples.

I'm convinced now. Truly, not all men are bad, and not all women are good. Thanks, TAM.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

SoWhat said:


> I see the clash between "feminism" and "old-fashioned sex roles" a lot too.
> 
> Women who think men and women should have the same job opportunities and earning profiles BUT believe in "chivalry" (understood as men paying for drinks/dates, opening doors, ample compliments, etc.). That is, they believe in a set of practices arising out of a certain socio-economic context but they don't want that context back.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that this clash exists. I've heard men say "Well they wanted equality, so be it!" in the context you are describing. I heard it a lot at work when I was in the corporate world although the guys still opened doors and were extremely chivalrous, if you will. I also remember a guy saying that he didn't think men should pay for women on a date systematically because as they wanted equality, they should pay as well.... 

Concerning the sleeping around issue, yup, same thing. Somehow it was made clear to me, although it was never stated by my father, that there were girls you marry and girls you just have fun with. He used to say: "Men are dogs, keep this in mind." 
My mother made it VERY clear that any girl who had s.x before marriage was a s..t in her opinion... Now, they were born in the 30s mind you.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I have known some extremely _mean_ and _cruel_ feminists who simply couldn't disagree with me without hurling (less than) subtle insults about how young I married, how ignorant and naive I was, how I'd learn better "one day", yadda yadda yadda. And, other than differences of opinion on marriages(one believed no one had a right to expect sex in a marriage, something I will never agree with...another believed that she should universally control the frequency of sex in her marriage, something else I will never agree with), it felt that they despised because I was young and they were not. It really is because of them that I don't identify myself as a feminist.

That said, I absolutely believe in equality between men and women. I think that men and women are both abused and taken advantage of in our society in many ways, professionally, legally, physically, mentally, emotionally...the issue is that one always blames the other for their issues, and vice versa. This can't be fixed while we still see it as men vs. women, or if women are given equality men will suffer, or if men are given equality women will suffer. As long as the rights of one don't infringe on the rights of the other, I believe both should be treated equally. 

And no, that's not going to change my expectation of being "taken out on a date", where the guy opens the doors and pays for the meal. You want to cop out of being a gentleman? Find a girl who doesn't give a crap. I paid for most of the dates my husband and I went on when we were dating because I made more than he did. But when he could, he paid. And he never once complained. 

God, I love him more and more each day I post here.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I have known some extremely _mean_ and _cruel_ feminists who simply couldn't disagree with me without hurling (less than) subtle insults about how young I married, how ignorant and naive I was, how I'd learn better "one day", yadda yadda yadda. And, other than differences of opinion on marriages(one believed no one had a right to expect sex in a marriage, something I will never agree with...another believed that she should universally control the frequency of sex in her marriage, something else I will never agree with), it felt that they despised because I was young and they were not. It really is because of them that I don't identify myself as a feminist.
> 
> That said, I absolutely believe in equality between men and women. I think that men and women are both abused and taken advantage of in our society in many ways, professionally, legally, physically, mentally, emotionally...the issue is that one always blames the other for their issues, and vice versa. This can't be fixed while we still see it as men vs. women, or if women are given equality men will suffer, or if men are given equality women will suffer. As long as the rights of one don't infringe on the rights of the other, I believe both should be treated equally.
> 
> ...


Some women wouldn't have dated him if they had to pay occasionally.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Some women wouldn't have dated him if they had to pay occasionally.


I think posts like this are a cop out. I think a lot of men in these angry forums are copping out. Yes, some women wouldn't have, but others would. And maybe you decide to only date women that are cool with paying for dinner. Or maybe you say "Eh, if I have to be the one to pay for dinner every time but otherwise the relationship is good, it's not a perfect world, and it's ok with me."

You don't have a right to have all women like you. You don't have a right to have all women be ok with whatever you do. A woman has every right to think whatever she thinks about men paying and a man has every right to think whatever he thinks about it. There can be a negotiation between the sides, or an impasse. But there's no rights involved there. That's what annoys me about these frustrated, whiny posts I see from MRA types. They invent these exaggerated fantasies about how every attractive woman will only date the hottest alpha guy, and then they have an excuse for not taking the scary risk of actually dating someone, of having to compromise themselves for someone who will also compromise for them, of having to negotiate his wants with a woman's wants. Sure most women would probably date George Clooney over you if they have the chance, and guess what, they don't have a chance! So instead a few of them might just be willing to settle for you. Can you handle that?

These guys need to face real reality, not this "red pill" fantasy they have. Yes, reality is harsh, but it's not as bad as they make it sound.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Some women wouldn't have dated him if they had to pay occasionally.


Then she is not worth dating.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

treyvion said:


> Some women wouldn't have dated him if they had to pay occasionally.


That's their right, then.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> That's their right, then.


Yup. And it's his right not to date women like that too. It works both ways, that's the nice thing about it. I have no more sympathy for a woman who says she "can't find a good man" and has a laundry list of things a man has to be/do.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

John Lee said:


> Yup. And it's his right not to date women like that too. It works both ways, that's the nice thing about it. I have no more sympathy for a woman who says she "can't find a good man" and has a laundry list of things a man has to be/do.


Yep. I agree.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> My husband and four of our kids are leaving for France this weekend, and ds15 and I will be left home. We are thinking about taking a road trip, but I am nervous about it. I would feel totally different if dh were going to be with us. I would not think about safety at all. I would just be thinking about what we were going to see.
> 
> *But since I am going to be doing this alone with ds15, I am apprehensive. What if we have car trouble? What if we find ourselves in an area that does not feel safe? What if someone knocks on our door at the hotel? What if, what if?
> 
> ...


Just for the record I would feel the same.. my H wouldn't be comfortable with me going it alone like that... and neither would I.. we are very big on safety.. Men are physically stronger than us...and I don't trust being out alone..., nor my daughter being alone in comparison to our sons...our sons don't have cell phones...but I know I will buy one for her when she is getting more freedom after school...walking to friends houses, etc...I will be more concerned where she is, what she is doing ..over the boys. 



Miss Taken said:


> I see sexism in my family but in smaller ways. My FIL, is in many ways a great man. He is hands-down my FAVOURITE person in my spouse's family and my kids adore him too. However, when it comes to certain things, is _just a bit_ sexist.
> 
> At the cottage for instance, he doesn't like it when us women take the boat out without one of the men on board. *While a big part of it is because he feels protective of us and wants us to be safe, another part of it is that he doesn't feel we are capable of handling a mechanical problem or emergency should one occur.* (FYI, When it did occur, and the guy on board wasn't able to re-start the motor, us girls rowed that boat back to shore while said guy unsuccessfully tinkered with the motor).


 I wouldn't see this as sexist at all.. just *concern*.. I talked to my H about what you said here last night and asked his thoughts.. he compared it to leaving a men with a baby... they just aren't as equipped to know what to do (generally).. if I get "beat up for this" ...Oh Well.. I felt he had a good point... I LIKE ... no scratch LOVE when my Husband is protective of me like this.. and shows his concern, I don't take such things as an insult or sexist AT ALL.. is there something wrong with me??

My H is not controlling at all, I even go on about how Beta he can be (but all good BETA)...I have seen him put his foot down over SAFETY issues more strongly than anything.. but I know what is behind that.. he loves me & cares about me...I think that's beautiful.. I am appreciative. 

Do we not want this from our men. ..has the day come when we are now are insulted by this?? 



> Another example is he taught both of his sons how to do car repairs, their own oil changes, change tires, spark plugs, autobody etc. However, he didn't teach this to his daughter even *when she said she wanted to learn.* He always expected that she would be with a man that could do that for her. Well, low and behold she ended up with a man that couldn't do any of that and later divorced him (for worse things than not being able to change a tire). She is nearly 40 and he just taught her two years ago what he should have back then.


 I think the key point here that sounds bad is WHEN SHE WANTED TO LEARN.. if he denied her, I wouldn't think that was wise..good for all !



Miss Taken said:


> I don't think so. I don't think all old-fashioned things are bad. I suppose there are things that even I am also "sexist" about.
> 
> Yesterday, I walked by a construction site that was making a lot of noise and getting dust and dirt all over the ground. A man walked past it before me, none of the men stopped working.
> 
> *But right before I approached the site, the men turned off the loud machinery and one of them swept the sidewalk before I approached so I wouldn't have to step in the dirt. Was it sexist of me to appreciate the old-fashioned chivalry?... should I feel guilty for blushing and enjoying that? Or should I be offended that I was placed on a pedestal and so naturally thought of a lesser being for being too fragile to sully my shoes? I certainly don't think so. I love stuff like that.*


 I love your little story...and you are getting to the heart of things that will forever be banished...I appreciate the men who still do things like that ..it's one of the things I LOVE about men the most - for God's sakes! 

I have read a # of articles on this.... and they can't co-exist..

This article will explain the confusion for men ... Chivalry vs. Feminism - AskMen

I found this little write up in one article.. 



> In the Atlantic article, Smith shares a great anecdote from the life of Baptist Minister Samuel Proctor: Proctor was on an elevator when a young woman stepped on. He tipped his hat to her, and she bristled, asking, "What is that supposed to mean?"
> 
> The pastor's response was: "Madame, by tipping my hat I was telling you several things. That I would not harm you in any way. That if someone came into this elevator and threatened you, I would defend you. That if you fell ill, I would tend to you and if necessary carry you to safety. I was telling you that even though I am a man and physically stronger than you, I will treat you with both respect and solicitude. But frankly, Madame, it would have taken too much time to tell you all of that; so, instead, I just tipped my hat."
> 
> When phrased that way, chivalry doesn’t sound offensive and condescending at all, but like it would make for an all-around more pleasant world.












Another said this >> "Although chivalrous acts aren’t always carried out from the perspective of a man believing he has authority over a woman, the intentions behind them hint at societal paradigms of misogyny and women being weaker than men." ..











All the talk about who Pays.. I have a different take on this , even though I am more Old fashioned minded in many ways.. If I found myself single .. I WOULD offer to pay for my meals in getting to know a man.. (I guess I am a feminist !)...BECAUSE so often today, the man expects SEX so quickly and by paying myself ..it's more of me showing him.. I am not here to "Use you".. I am here to get to know you.. to see if WE fit.. and I also wouldn't want HIM to think I am going to sleep with him cause he wined & dined me.. cause that seems to be the normal flow..

Though my H would have a problem with the woman trying to pay...and insist on paying....and he wouldn't even expect sex quickly..cause he IS the chivalrous type...a True Gentleman....but we just don't know what type of expectations people have today.. it could be all over the map!!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Here's a link to one of my favorite man hating site;

I HATE MEN – Quarter Million Users Strong

And it's just not a few crazies, it's over 250,000. members strong.

Really interesting articles on the site too.

I think hatred for men is so ingrained in Western societies, that boys and girls are cultured to accept it as normal.

I think things would be much better between the genders if people start being honest and fix the wrongs in their own gender and stop blaming the opposite gender for their own short comings.

Women who want to fix men need to start fixing themselves and other women who hate men.
Men who want to fix women need to start fixing themselves and men who hate women.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

treyvion said:


> Some women wouldn't have dated him if they had to pay occasionally.


And some would. It's about individual choice.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

John Lee said:


> Yup. And it's his right not to date women like that too. It works both ways, that's the nice thing about it. I have no more sympathy for a woman who says she "can't find a good man" and has a laundry list of things a man has to be/do.


Keep in mind that there are also men who say that they cannot find a good woman and these guys also have a laundry list of things a woman has to be/do.

There are unreasonable people in both genders.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

SoWhat said:


> I see the clash between "feminism" and "old-fashioned sex roles" a lot too.
> 
> Women who think men and women should have the same job opportunities and earning profiles BUT believe in "chivalry" (understood as men paying for drinks/dates, opening doors, ample compliments, etc.). That is, they believe in a set of practices arising out of a certain socio-economic context but they don't want that context back.
> 
> ...


Thinking men should act in a chivalrous fashion is in no way in contradiction to me being a feminist. We must have different ideas on what that means. 

I happen to think being chivalrous is just being a decent person. Treating women with respect. Women should also treat men with respect.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I wouldn't see this as sexist at all.. just *concern*.. I talked to my H about what you said here last night and asked his thoughts.. he compared it to leaving a men with a baby... they just aren't as equipped to know what to do (generally).. if I get "beat up for this" ...Oh Well.. I felt he had a good point... I LIKE ... no scratch LOVE when my Husband is protective of me like this.. and shows his concern, I don't take such things as an insult or sexist AT ALL.. is there something wrong with me??


No, I don't think there is anything wrong with you.  

For the record, I do see the sweetness in it too. I know he is protective of all of us out of love. I wouldn't say I'm insulted by it. I know how he is and I know how my spouse is too. One of the things that I do appreciate about him is that he is physically protective of me. He checks the bumps in the night so I don't have to, I've seen him stand up in defense of a woman who was being beaten in the parking lot by her husband. Mice and vermin be damned, he'll get rid of the critters for me and I love and appreciate that about him. 

Re: the beatings about the baby statement. No beatings here. I don't fully agree with it but understand the point being made. Save breastfeeding, my spouse has done it all when it comes to our kids. I was quite young when we had our first, so he watched the baby from 3 months of age during the days when I was at school AND worked a night shift job. Something I'll always be grateful for. We're in a much better position now so I'm home with our youngest right now. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I think the key point here that sounds bad is WHEN SHE WANTED TO LEARN.. if he denied her, I wouldn't think that was wise..good for all !


Yeah, that was the part that bugged me too. Then again, my worldview was different on this one. One of the good things about my own mom is that she was a "Jill of all trades". Her parents owned a garage and she grew up working in it so knew just as much about cars as any man did.

I remember a story she told me about going to a dance. A guy messed with her car... I can't remember what he did specifically (I'm not mechanically inclined). However, his motive was to come over and rescue her after the dance was over, by fixing the problem and then get her phone number. 

Well, after the dance, she noticed her car wouldn't start. The guy came over to her and asked if she needed help. She told him, no. Went to the trunk for her overalls and her toolbox. Put the overalls over her dress, went to work, fixed the problem, got back in her car and drove off. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I love your little story...and you are getting to the heart of things that will forever be banished...I appreciate the men who still do things like that ..it's one of the things I LOVE about men the most - for God's sakes!
> 
> I have read a # of articles on this.... and they can't co-exist..
> 
> This article will explain the confusion for men ... Chivalry vs. Feminism - AskMen


I love stuff like that too. I've seen some women say they were offended by things like that and I don't agree. I teach my sons to open doors for people - especially elderly women, offer his seat to pregnant women, the disabled and the elderly etc. 

I actually enjoyed the AskMen's take on chivalry. I agree with everything they suggested actually. To me it makes a good argument for why chivalry and feminism can coincide. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I found this little write up in one article..
> 
> Another said this >> "Although chivalrous acts aren’t always carried out from the perspective of a man believing he has authority over a woman, the intentions behind them hint at societal paradigms of misogyny and women being weaker than men." ..


Yeah, I don't really agree with this stance. Misogyny is one thing but one thing I don't get is why it's a problem mentioning that we are weaker. Not mentally speaking but definitely physically, we are the "weaker sex" because...science. lol



SimplyAmorous said:


> If I found myself single .. I WOULD offer to pay for my meals in getting to know a man.. (I guess I am a feminist !)...BECAUSE so often today, the man expects SEX so quickly and by paying myself ..it's more of me showing him.. I am not here to "Use you".. I am here to get to know you.. to see if WE fit.. and I also wouldn't want HIM to think I am going to sleep with him cause he wined & dined me.. cause that seems to be the normal flow..


I agree wholeheartedly with this.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think what you may see as hatred of men might really just be fear of men, CM. I think there is fear of the other in both sexes. Each knows the power the other has over them.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> I think what you may see as hatred of men might really just be fear of men, CM. I think there is fear of the other in both sexes. Each knows the power the other has over them.


RIGHT!:iagree:

So there_ is_ actually something behind the noises of hate and anger we hear on both sides of the gender divide.

Hate is born out of fear and ignorance.
That is why i say, let them talk.

Sooner or later both sides would come to their own realization that they are both doing the same thing.

Anyone who pretends they aren't doing the same thing ,_ is doing the same thing as them ie;
_
Hating.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> RIGHT!:iagree:
> 
> So there_ is_ actually something behind the noises of hate and anger we hear on both sides of the gender divide.
> 
> ...


Yes. 

And I think the louder and more aggressive people are, the less power they actually feel they have inside. Hence the acting out.

It takes strength to admit weakness. And trust, in oneself and the people around us.

People will go to great lengths to protect their vulnerabilities.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> Women who want to fix men need to start fixing themselves and other women who hate men.
> Men who want to fix women need to start fixing themselves and men who hate women.


Now this I can get behind.. I was talking with a guy friend a few yrs ago about men & women.. and this light bulb went off in my head....the funny thing about our conversation was.. I , as a woman, was more hard on women to treat MEN better...I look at what we need to do..to BE....to help them...to cater to them so they want to have a lasting relationship with us... to be their helpmate so getting married is worthwhile to them...

And our guy friend was more focused on how a man should be treating the women....which was GOOD !! God Bless him!!!... If both genders had this sort of attitude when they come together.. to be GIVERS to help each other/ love on each other..and never let go... relationships would sure work a hell of a lot better.. .it just seems so often we get stuck focusing on all that the other is not doing.... instead of doing more ourselves -to encourage the other to step up too in the areas we need... and we get caught in blaming the other gender....instead of trying to slip in their shoes...understanding THEIR needs , although similar ...ours are of a different priority, different intensity... so we need to over extend in some areas to please our men...even if we don't "get it"...listen to them....and he do the same...for us. 

Men (generally) NEED more sex (till women hit mid life -then the tables turn!!)... they need to feel DESIRED by their wives...it's a BIG DEAL... or it crushes their spirit....they want an enthusiastic lover .... Women need some emotion from our husbands... we need to feel heard when we have something on our hearts, we need your time...Men need our respect...we need their love, their care for us, their affection.. they want to be praised by us... 

But these things just don't HAPPEN... by our actions, how we love, how we show our desire, respect, validation... we bring about these dynamics that keep us wanting to be close to each other, we inspire our love for each other.. 

This is a christian article.. (so if that offends anyone, don't click on it..I myself do not care for all the scripture references either)...yet I find what was spoken absolutely beautiful to those dynamics between a man and a woman... I have wanted to take this article & all the biblical references out of it and express the same spirit somehow.. but I have never taken the time to do that.. 

I love MEN...or at least the type talked about in this article ...and I very much resonate with our role as women -as explained here ... 

The Power of a Woman -God has given us women the privilege and the ability to bring life to our husbands with our love 

A few things taken from the article...



> Marriage is intended to be redemptive for both men and women. God has given us women the privilege and the ability to bring life to our husbands with our love. Women have enormous power with men, and we can use it for good or for evil.
> 
> Today, the advertising industry exploits this power in order to sell everything from cars to toothpaste. Magazines, billboards, posters, and store windows use attractive women, seductive women, and blatant sexual images to catch a man's glance and capture his attention.
> 
> ...


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jld said:


> *I think what you may see as hatred of men might really just be fear of men, *CM. I think there is fear of the other in both sexes. Each knows the power the other has over them.


100% :iagree:
IMO that is a big part to play with both misogynists/misandrists (coupled with entitlement issue's a lot of the time).


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Miss Taken said:


> For the record, I do see the sweetness in it too. I know he is protective of all of us out of love. I wouldn't say I'm insulted by it. I know how he is and I know how my spouse is too. One of the things that I do appreciate about him is that he is physically protective of me. He checks the bumps in the night so I don't have to, I've seen him stand up in defense of a woman who was being beaten in the parking lot by her husband. Mice and vermin be damned, he'll get rid of the critters for me and I love and appreciate that about him.


 And ya know what is funny...if our men WASN'T LIKE this, we'd be *****ing about that too. I really think men have a thin line to walk with many women... I think we have it far easier in comparison.... I am thrilled to be a woman.. I actually think If I was a man, it might be easier to be Gay... 

I am not afraid of bugs or snakes.. an Intruder.. that's another story!!!... my H laughed at me one night yrs ago... I was sitting outside in our gazebo, it was late.....I walked in the house & said non chalantly... "Oh you might want to kill that snake up there" - and said calmly ...."He slithered under my legs".. ..I didn't jump or anything...I've killed them myself ...oh it's a snake.. big deal..



> Re: the beatings about the baby statement. No beatings here. I don't fully agree with it but understand the point being made. Save breastfeeding, my spouse has done it all when it comes to our kids. I was quite young when we had our first, so he watched the baby from 3 months of age during the days when I was at school AND worked a night shift job. Something I'll always be grateful for. We're in a much better position now so I'm home with our youngest right now.


 I didn't mean they can't do it.. of course they can...... but they'd likely be more "lost" doing it ..have more questions, might need to call Mom....ya know like the movie "3 men and a baby" (Which I never saw)...just not as equipped as the women would be.. I see nothing wrong with this.. this is why we *need* each other/ we compliment each other... what one gender offers, another is appreciative, and vice versa.... just as if I had a chain saw in my hands.. or had to weld something.. Husband is going to outshine me BIG TIME.. I've told him many times if I had to do the mechanical work he has gotten himself into in that garage, I'd probably blow it up.. I wouldn't have the patience he has....he is very skilled with his hands.. (a nice plus in other ways too).... 

*Is it sexist of me to say ..I feel WOMEN ARE MORE THE NURTURES among the genders?? * 

Just as I feel MEN are the weaker sex when it comes to ...well...








(they have higher sex drives in their youth over us)... and women are the weaker sex when it comes to Physical strength.. 

Men are far more likely to be our Heros doing the dirty work, fighting on the front lines in war (even men don't want to see women there )... building bridges, working in coal mines.. and we think so HIGHLY of them for this.. don't we???

On the sinking Titanic ..it was women and children 1st ...the men felt that way at one time.... ya know what.. if that happened today.. would it play the same way.. I say NO....it would be every man & women for himself... only the chivalrous men would even think like that..it is being bred out of men today to even care....they are DYING ... our world has lost some beautiful things, despite what it has gained..for women's rights. 

Actually my H has more patience over me with the kids and it is HE who helps them do their homework.. I am more the one who tackles/ handles / deals with the financial matters in our house.. as I am more detail oriented over him..and know questions to ask to cover all basis.. that sort of thing.. so I think much of this comes down to personality & what our natural skills are too. 



> I remember a story she told me about going to a dance. A guy messed with her car... I can't remember what he did specifically (I'm not mechanically inclined). However, his motive was to come over and rescue her after the dance was over, by fixing the problem and then get her phone number.
> 
> Well, after the dance, she noticed her car wouldn't start. The guy came over to her and asked if she needed help. She told him, no. Went to the trunk for her overalls and her toolbox. Put the overalls over her dress, went to work, fixed the problem, got back in her car and drove off.


 Ha ha .. I've seen that played in movies too....Why he had to go to those lengths.. I don't know.. he could have just asked her out or struck up a simple conversation. ...that was a dirty deed gone very sour.. 



> I love stuff like that too. I've seen some women say they were offended by things like that and I don't agree. I teach my sons to open doors for people - especially elderly women, offer his seat to pregnant women, the disabled and the elderly etc.
> 
> I actually enjoyed the AskMen's take on chivalry. I agree with everything they suggested actually. To me it makes a good argument for why chivalry and feminism can coincide.


 I'm glad I am not the only one... in real life I can't say I see this.. it's more of things I have read online to be honest...



> Yeah, I don't really agree with this stance. Misogyny is one thing but one thing I don't get is why it's a problem mentioning that we are weaker. Not mentally speaking but definitely physically, we are the "weaker sex" because...science. lol


 Some may feel it's wrong, and want to correct me to suggest (GENERALLY speaking / statistically ) that MEN have a higher sex drive over women... (science again >> testosterone)..... so I consider them* weaker *sexually....they fall easier... they can separate love & sex easier to due their horniness being off the richter scale... if a woman wants to entice a man, lifting her skirt, seducing him..... he is X amount of times more likely to fall due to his hormones over a woman.. how anyone could even begin to argue this one....but I've seen it and will continue to see it. 

If women's drives were equal..we'd be orgasming as much as men do/ be masturbating fiends too... we'd get addicted to porn as easy as they do too...but No.. this is not the case ..never was.. (of course some of us women are addicted to sex too - I outta know - I wanted it 3 times a day 5 years ago, and with that , came a near addiction to porn... so I feel I got a taste of what men go through.. WOW..was my eyes opened [email protected]#$... but I never felt like that for the 1st 41 yrs of my life -with that sort of intensity, I was saying.. OMG.. how does young men get ANYTHING done with their brains in overdrive like this!..I was always fulfilled but never THAT ANTSY- needing it SO MUCH... 

I know I had a testosterone increase in my body during that time, I had physical symptoms that was messing with my head).. so yeah women can get that too - at various times in their lives.. (I am happy I got to experience it -it helped me understand HIGH drivers -big time)....

I have read about the male & female Brain, there is a larger area in men for sexual thoughts over women...

This article explains this ... Love, sex and the male brain - CNN.com



> The "*defend your turf*" area -- dorsal premammillary nucleus -- is larger in the *male brain* and contains special circuits to detect territorial challenges by other males. And his amygdala, the alarm system for threats, fear and danger is also larger in men. These brain differences make men more alert than women to potential turf threats.
> 
> Meanwhile, the "*I feel what you feel*" part of the brain -- mirror-neuron system -- is larger and more active in the *female brain*. So women can naturally get in sync with others' emotions by reading facial expressions, interpreting tone of voice and other nonverbal emotional cues.
> 
> ...


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And ya know what is funny...if our men WASN'T LIKE this, we'd be *****ing about that too.


Ain't that the truth lol. It would turn me off actually so I'm definitely _sexist _in this department.  My BIL is sort of handy but no where near that of my spouse and is afraid of creepy crawlies lol.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I didn't mean they can't do it.. of course they can...... but they'd likely be more "lost" doing it ..have more questions, might need to call Mom....ya know like the movie "3 men and a baby" (Which I never saw)


I also _never _saw that movie (several times) either. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I've told him many times if I had to do the mechanical work he has gotten himself into in that garage, I'd probably blow it up.. I wouldn't have the patience he has....he is very skilled with his hands.. (a nice plus in other ways too)...


Yeah, I appreciate him for this stuff too. I like some hands-on work but definitely don't have the same amount of patience for it as he does or level of skill as he does. I know I could learn to fix XYZ but definitely enjoy the benefits of not having to. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> *Is it sexist of me to say ..I feel WOMEN ARE MORE THE NURTURES among the genders?? *
> 
> Just as I feel MEN are the weaker sex when it comes to ...well...
> 
> ...


I don't think so. Generally speaking, it's true. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> On the sinking Titanic ..it was women and children 1st ...the men felt that way at one time.... ya know what.. if that happened today.. would it play the same way.. I say NO....it would be every man & women for himself... only the chivalrous men would even think like that..it is being bred out of men today to even care....they are DYING ... our world has lost some beautiful things, despite what it has gained..for women's rights.


I don't think it's only feminism to blame for this but I do know that it's not perfect and agree that some values and things have been lost. While I do enjoy the rights and freedoms and want them for everyone, there are some values that are "old fashioned" that I want for myself. 

Things like being promiscuous is a right I think others are entitled to for example. I don't think women have to be chaste or should be slvt shamed for having casual sex. That said, I don't personally want to have casual sex or be expected to put out on the third date because other women do. 

I think women should have the freedom to work in whatever field they enjoy and not be guilty about having careers vs. being homemakers when they have kids. On the other hand, I don't want to be belittled about my choice to be a SAHM during the early years of my children's lives either.... and so on.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *Actually my H has more patience over me with the kids and it is HE who helps them do their homework..*


This is true in our house for the most part. Well, I tackle the reading/writing but he deals with more of the math. Still, when it comes to patience, he's definitely stronger in that dept than I am.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I am more the one who tackles/ handles / deals with the financial matters in our house.. as I am more detail oriented over him..and know questions to ask to cover all basis.. that sort of thing.. so I think much of this comes down to personality & what our natural skills are too.


You and your H, are an isnpiration to many here including myself. I think you both complement each other very well. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Ha ha .. I've seen that played in movies too....Why he had to go to those lengths.. I don't know.. he could have just asked her out or struck up a simple conversation. ...that was a dirty deed gone very sour..


Kind of creepy to me when I think about it. 1 part sweet, 1 part sinister. I like to think he was a good guy and was trying to be romantic but we'll never know.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I have read about the male & female Brain, there is a larger area in men for sexual thoughts over women...
> 
> This article explains this ... Love, sex and the male brain - CNN.com


Good article. I have read similar things to this before. It's one of the reasons, I believe we are equal - though *not *the same. We both have strengths and weaknesses that can either complement each other and bring us together or tear us apart.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This write up explains HOW I feel about these things.. it even mentions "feminine charm" ...
> 
> The Power of a Woman
> 
> ...



SimplyAmorous,

I honestly think you are one of the nicest people here at TAM and have a lot of respect for you. I have no intention of offending you, the part of your post about The Power of a Woman was highly disturbing.

I now understand why some women get irate over the whole PUA thing. This part of this post was basically the equivelent of PUA for women. I actually think this was worse. At least with PUA there is the principal of self improvement with the understanding that a person could use it to further themselves with the oposite sex. This article did not even try to put up any pretenses. 


power over men - Why is there a need to have power over anyone?

she can own a man - Why do we feel that we need to own other people. Why would a person let themselves be "owned"

men who instinctively respect or even idealize women - I agree with respect. I believe everyone deserves a basic amount of respect until they show themselves unworthy of respect.

idealize - If a person idealizes someone else they short change themselves. For those that want to do that, more power to them. I won't.

If his illusions are left intact, a man is always happy. - If this is what the author really thinks about men. That they are truly that shallow, whats that say about him.


I'm all for equal rights, but this basically says that men are dirt and a woman has the power to do as she wants. This is misandry. While it's not in the form that most people would recognize. It's still misandry.

While I won't be stupid and say that it's not highly effective. I will fight it with my last breath. If only more men would just see it for what it is.

Whats wrong with just being ourselves without having to play power trips and games.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> I'm all for equal rights, but this basically says that men are dirt and a woman has the power to do as she wants. This is misandry. While it's not in the form that most people would recognize. It's still misandry.


That bit about the power of women is not related to equal rights. It's an ideology that is often used as a contrast against feminism.

I agree with your take on it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Windwalker said:


> I'm all for equal rights, but this basically says that men are dirt and a woman has the power to do as she wants. This is misandry. While it's not in the form that most people would recognize. It's still misandry.
> 
> While I won't be stupid and say that it's not highly effective. I will fight it with my last breath. If only more men would just see it for what it is.
> 
> Whats wrong with just being ourselves without having to play power trips and games.


:iagree:


Your last sentence is something I've been asking over and over. No one ever has an answer.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Windwalker said:


> SimplyAmorous,
> 
> I honestly think you are one of the nicest people here at TAM and have a lot of respect for you. I have no intention of offending you, the part of your post about The Power of a Woman was highly disturbing.


 Never worry about offending ... I WANT to hear counter views...



> I now understand why some women get irate over the whole PUA thing. This part of this post was basically the equivelent of PUA for women. I actually think this was worse. At least with PUA there is the principal of self improvement with the understanding that a person could use it to further themselves with the oposite sex. This article did not even try to put up any pretenses.
> 
> 
> power over men - Why is there a need to have power over anyone?


 Ok.... I see this article very differently from what you are describing here... I guess it makes sense that no matter who we are, we will gleam different things from what we read...

When the article says *ALL*...and says she can OWN a man, it goes too far..I agree, that's ridiculous as many men have no desire to settle down to begin with, they are just not the type to allow any woman have an effect... 

It talks about when a man will risk anything for someone he is attracted to...unfortunately this does happen... the power of attraction can be very strong... call me a Romantic, Ok, but not a man hater.. absolutely not.. that is a great insult TO ME.. ..but if this is what you see, I am not going to change your mind or anyone else.. what I gleam from that article is the power of LOVE, when a man Falls hard.. when he is smitten, he will fight for that woman.. and with her feminine charm, he will want to BE A BETTER MAN.. 

It's funny...no matter what article you put in front of a few people, you will get many different opinions ...some are inspired, ,some are repulsed...some see LOVE, Romance, some see HATE..

Even with the pick up Artists websites.. . I think it would be better to read a book about how to Make friends and INfluence People over that - up your communication skills.. but I understand that SOME GOOD men still read there and are smart enough to gleam the good & throw out the bad.. I wouldn't throw them all under the bus....and label them "woman haters"..

Another example of people getting very different ideas on something written.. that old classic *"The giving tree"*... it has over 1,000 views on Amazon.com .. I was reading those one day & was so darn intrigued by the various responses -College students have even written thesis's on it.. some see Unconditional Love in it's purest form from the Tree (could represent parents)...and others are highly disturbed, felt the book should be banned...saw the worst form of Usery, taking advantage of Someone's care, Pure narcissism on behalf of the boy ...



> men who instinctively respect or even idealize women -* I agree with respect. I believe everyone deserves a basic amount of respect until they show themselves unworthy of respect.*


 I would never disagree with this.. these sorts of thoughts, again, never entered my brain reading that article... I didn't see usery.. but it's obvious you DID... 



> idealize - If a person idealizes someone else they short change themselves. For those that want to do that, more power to them. I won't.


 Where you see Idealize.. I am viewing a man who has fallen in love with a woman and he respects what he sees...and his loves grows for her... 

I guess taken from this part..." There’s also an indefinable moral or spiritual power that women have, *especially with men who instinctively respect or even idealize women*. To that kind of man, a woman represents something better than himself, something that his soul craves but can’t find anywhere else."

Ok.. you are not that type of man.. My Husband was...I suppose that makes him "less than" in others eyes..there is nothing I can do about that... people will have their opinions... I adore him and he's treated me exceptionally well over the years.. and I can attest how that makes me want to give back to him.....His love and care for me has inspired me, moved me.. and I appreciate those type of men.. I personally idealize those type of MEN, I suppose, but I am going to again, call this is c0cktail mix of Romance here.. ..not jumping into bed with each other quickly after a 1st date, but each taking the time to get to know each other on an emotional scale.. there is attraction there, something beautiful and greatly respectful grows from that.. on both ends.. 

This is what I GET from that article despite a few words others are picking out and running with. (ALL own and Idealize...also we can add manipulation).. I guess upon reading this again.. this can be somewhat offending.. yet this just wasn't what I was personally picking up on when I read it.. that's just the truth.



> If his illusions are left intact, a man is always happy. - If this is what the author really thinks about men. That they are truly that shallow, whats that say about him.


 What I get is.. here is a woman who knows how to make him FEEL like the tallest man.. to say that we as wives and GF's have no play in this.. I would disagree ... if our attitudes and behaviors have no effect on our men...something is amiss... just as how men treat us, has a profound effect on us as well.



> I'm all for equal rights, but this basically says that men are dirt and a woman has the power to do as she wants. This is misandry. While it's not in the form that most people would recognize. It's still misandry.


 I didn't for a second entertain or view this as men are dirt ....I did see it as ..when men fall in love.. that we have an opportunity to woo him in a way that if he hasn't.. it's not going to happen.. I feel some of the greatest love songs are written by men in love.. some men never shake the love of one special woman... again, this article nor myself had the type of men in mind who pride themselves on bachelorhood & seek bedding a variety of women. 



> *Whats wrong with just being ourselves without having to play power trips and games*.


 I am not for power trips or games at all.. You would be hard pressed to meet one more of a straight shooter over Myself.. though that article captures how I would conduct myself on a date.. I do not believe in having sex till you have a firm emotional commitment from a man, I want to feel his LOVE for me.. this was my allure to that article. I also would have no interest in a Player or one who didn't have some sort of Romantic nature.. 

TO each their own .. but I do not hate men, I think very highly of them.... though I do have a specific type that I go for.. and it's more the old fashioned type...the Gentleman type... I would never use and abuse them. I greatly respect them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

From what I have seen in life, it does seem like many men tend to fall hard for that one special woman. And they don't always know who it will be.

I read on another site about a man whose friend had always dated a certain type of girl. Well, for whatever reason he met a very different type, and found that he enjoyed her more and more as they spent time together. They got married, and are very happy. All his friends were surprised, not only because of how different she was from the rest, but how genuinely happy he was with her, as opposed to the other girls.

Like SA said, it is good to hear different views. I agree with Windwalker that we don't need power games in relationships. We need honesty, respect, compatibility. And commitment.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

But is it necessarily power games or_ power dynamics?_

Because all relationships are about power , and how it is shared among the participants.

In relationships where games are played, there exist a power imbalance. The games and the sh!t tests are an attempt to either grab or maintain control.

Successful couples are the ones that learn how to share and exchange power in a way that both parties are mutually satisfied and resentments don't arise.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> But is it necessarily power games or_ power dynamics?_
> 
> Because all relationships are about power , and how it is shared among the participants.
> 
> ...


I think fitness tests, if passed, are reassuring. I realize this is not a popular opinion. 

I definitely think the power games are about trying to grab or maintain control. And people hate it when you call them out on it!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> Like SA said, it is good to hear different views. * I agree with Windwalker that we don't need power games in relationships. We need honesty, respect, compatibility. And commitment.*


 Alot of women will say they like an element of *mystery* in a man when dating.. it holds their attraction.. there is some game playing to this.. it is a holding back in certain elements to retain an allure for the woman... 

I have never felt this way personally...or if it's there at the onset.. I would need to move past it....I prefer an open honest soul / transparency over Mystery.. 

I believe in taking it SLOW.... I prefer *commitment* ...a slow building of *trust* as we learn of each other , our hopes... dreams, aspirations....greatest fears, deepest desires......unraveling bit by bit as we get to the center, the core of what we are made of & what makes us tick...allowing ourselves to be vulnerable before the other ...as time has allowed a trust to grow and flourish through these shared exchanges and experiences...and with this.. an "acceptance" is deeply felt.. 

This is a must... nothing can take it's place if one is seeking something REAL, lasting..and true.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I hear you, SA. To me, marriage is serious business. I need to be with someone I trust completely, and can be completely, safely, transparent with. 

Any power exchange here is genuine. I just can't fake anything.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> I hear you, SA. To me, marriage is serious business. I need to be with someone I trust completely, and can be completely, safely, transparent with.
> 
> Any power exchange here is genuine. I just can't fake anything.


Me and my H were boringly open and honest from the day we met... we wouldn't even know what game playing was... He was who he was ..kinda humble.. a good guy....and I was just my crazy self.... I felt at ease with him because he was so REAL with me, not trying to impress with BS lines or trying to act like he didn't need me so I would want him more.. (PUA sites would say it is relationship suicide to act like you was really into a woman ).. 

Our openness & sheer honesty was what we loved about each other..and could trust in each other... 

Being so truthful can be a form of comedy even...he makes fun of me and my quirks.. I make fun of him.... it's freaking hilarious at times...we've been this way for the last 33 yrs.. it's our form of banter.. who needs games! 

Everyone's dynamics are different.. that's a little of how we are.. maybe that is just plain strange .. but we wouldn't care.. it works for us..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You know, SA, I don't think dh has ever been as open and honest as I have. I truly hide nothing in this marriage, or not intentionally. He doesn't have a lot of time, so I have to prioritize what I tell him. Some things fall through the cracks.

But basically we just feel good together. When it comes right down to it, that is what our marriage is really based on: just feeling genuinely comfortable with each other.

Again, we are so boring!  But maybe we love boring!


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