# Is this asking too much?



## This is me (May 4, 2011)

After getting the surprise news about a desire to divorce and several weeks of MC now, I simply requested that she make some efforts to do an occasional kind touch, an occasional phone call to say hi, hows the day going, anything to show she is also trying to improve the relationship. Brought this up at the MC session this weekend. Her response is she only wants things to come naturally.

It seems to me that at this point it requires both of us to treat our marriage like we are exercising our relationship back into shape and waiting for it to come naturally is like lying down and waiting for a sit-up to happen by itself.

Am I wrong?


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## VLR (May 15, 2011)

remember, she already said she wants a divorce, which means you are really late waking up to this dire situation. You can't expect anything from her at this point. Either you are willing to look at what you missed that allowed her to reach her decision or you decide it isn't fair / worth the effort. You shouldn't be asking her to do this or that if you want a shot at keeping her. She may walk no matter what you do, so best to seize the opportunity to learn something that will help you whether or not your current relationship continues. Just my opinion.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

VLR said:


> remember, she already said she wants a divorce, which means you are really late waking up to this dire situation. You can't expect anything from her at this point. Either you are willing to look at what you missed that allowed her to reach her decision or you decide it isn't fair / worth the effort. You shouldn't be asking her to do this or that if you want a shot at keeping her. She may walk no matter what you do, so best to seize the opportunity to learn something that will help you whether or not your current relationship continues. Just my opinion.


I appreciate the feedback.

My thought is why even bother going to a MC if we are both not trying. It seems my requests take only seconds a day, and can have a major impact on making the effort a positive one. We can both throw in the towel anytime, but if she wants to work at the marriage, the key word to me is work. This request is really not work, just showing respect.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

It may be a lot to ask after several weeks of MC, but sooner or later she needs to make an effort or call it quits.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Chris Taylor said:


> It may be a lot to ask after several weeks of MC, but sooner or later she needs to make an effort or call it quits.


She has dragged me by a string through the mud for months, when all of this was an obvious shock and surprise to me. Even the MC told her that her signals were something only a mind-reader could have picked up on.

She knew before D Day that I thought we had a great marriage and never took the opportunity to correct me if she felt otherwise.

I will continue to show that I love her, our marriage and will respect our vows, whether or not she has the same respect for the past 17 years.


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## CharlieBrown (May 10, 2011)

Just throwing this out there, as being in a similar situation, I heard some words from my wife this weekend, that "possibly" might be what she is doing. She may be trying to control this situation a bit. Maybe she feels you have always been in control and since she asked you about the D word, maybe its making her feel a bit better to keep a bit of control for once. Not saying you are controlling or anything, but from my current experience, this is what I see my wife doing and she has told me so. For once, she wants a little control. Maybe Im way off track, but something to look at. Good luck.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Seriously, why bother?

Why not draw a line in the sand (if not with her, then with yourself). My wife didn't get serious about counseling or fixing our relationship until she knew I was looking for an apartment. then she knew that she had to participate in the process... and that doesn't mean just showing up at MC.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

CharlieBrown said:


> Just throwing this out there, as being in a similar situation, I heard some words from my wife this weekend, that "possibly" might be what she is doing. She may be trying to control this situation a bit. Maybe she feels you have always been in control and since she asked you about the D word, maybe its making her feel a bit better to keep a bit of control for once. Not saying you are controlling or anything, but from my current experience, this is what I see my wife doing and she has told me so. For once, she wants a little control. Maybe Im way off track, but something to look at. Good luck.


I agree. She did say I am controlling in the earliest days after D day, which makes sense. I am sure somethings I do are more so to keep things in control, more so than me being controlling. I have always been, for example, fiscally responsible which has put us in a nice position when it comes to money. Don't even bark about her buying shoes every week, like I may have in the early days.

In part I think this is part of her issue. I certainly don't want her to feel controlled, but this D thing and all the other "new behaviors" only make me suspicious which can translate to controlling.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Chris Taylor said:


> Seriously, why bother?
> 
> Why not draw a line in the sand (if not with her, then with yourself). My wife didn't get serious about counseling or fixing our relationship until she knew I was looking for an apartment. then she knew that she had to participate in the process... and that doesn't mean just showing up at MC.


Chris, I have been very close to this. I did the 180 one day and she broke down and insisted we spend the day together (mostly shopping...foolish of me). She called the next day twice to thank me for spending the day and even wanted to know if I was checking out. This is curious to hear after she told me she wants a divorce (totally confusing to me). I likely did not let her sit with it long enough to sink in and wonder if it works a second time or could be fatal.

My heart is still very much with her and our marriage, which again I was seeing as a great marriage and more than 90% full of love and joy. Her mostly empty viewpoint on our relationship is puzzling and certainly frustrating knowing what I know.

I am trying to have patience, but realize I have a limit.


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## CharlieBrown (May 10, 2011)

Is there something in the water. It shocks me to see so many of us in the same or extremely similar situations. Keep looking out for yourself first, as hard as it seems, you have too. Im not one to talk if you read my posts I am in the same position,but am starting to get better everyday looking at what I REALLY want in the end. That makes it tough, whether you want it work or not, neither decision is going to be easy. I have 26 years invested in my marriage and Im only 45 now. We never knew anyone else and now we are grown and see the world differently. Seems like you really care for her. Try and let her control things for a bit. dont let it get out of control. Work with her a bit on what she believes may help. I know one thing, I am doing this and I can see she feels much better, not sure that I do right now, but as long as the other party is happy, it gives you more of a chance to work on yourself.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

CharlieBrown said:


> Is there something in the water. It shocks me to see so many of us in the same or extremely similar situations. Keep looking out for yourself first, as hard as it seems, you have too. Im not one to talk if you read my posts I am in the same position,but am starting to get better everyday looking at what I REALLY want in the end. That makes it tough, whether you want it work or not, neither decision is going to be easy. I have 26 years invested in my marriage and Im only 45 now. We never knew anyone else and now we are grown and see the world differently. Seems like you really care for her. Try and let her control things for a bit. dont let it get out of control. Work with her a bit on what she believes may help. I know one thing, I am doing this and I can see she feels much better, not sure that I do right now, but as long as the other party is happy, it gives you more of a chance to work on yourself.


I hear ya about so many. My confidant (brother) who has let me lean on him a bit through this whole shocking event, shared with me he knows of 5 others in a similar situation. He promised to keep my/our issue quiet, as he has the others. He did share that a couple of the others I would know and it would shock me to hear about who it was. One thing for sure is we are all in our 40's or early 50's, which makes me wonder what is going on in our society and at this age group.

Reading about the Walk-away wife syndrome sounds so close to what she now shares with me. Covert exit plans. I do not remember that was part of our wedding vows...for better, worse, or quiet exit plans. I believe it is all part of a female mid-life thing gone wild.

I will stick with her, let her have some control (she has it) and give her time to grow a new heart.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

If she wants a divorce, there is no point in doing MC.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> If she wants a divorce, there is no point in doing MC.


Our MC already told me if she said that she did not want to work on it, he would only help with the seperation. She wanted the D originally till confronted with it. No Divorce for now at least. Hardly an effort either.


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## CharlieBrown (May 10, 2011)

Hang in there buddy. Weird, but is sounds like you may be going through exactly what I am. We need to be able to stand up for ourselves, let them have a bit of control, without feeling like we are in prison. I am learning a lot about what I did 26 years ago as kids getting married and having trust issues, has led to the lack of confidence in both my spouse and I. So, I am fighting hard to quite talking about it with her, as it just wears her out after a point. Keep your chin up and together we can win our loves back. Be positive about it, till they either tell us to go or we have a sense of it may work. I know one thing, I expect a quick fix and have learned the hard way that it could take months of constant working and then when it is put together. Its gonna take daily work to continue with a strong marriage.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

CharlieBrown said:


> Hang in there buddy. Weird, but is sounds like you may be going through exactly what I am. We need to be able to stand up for ourselves, let them have a bit of control, without feeling like we are in prison. I am learning a lot about what I did 26 years ago as kids getting married and having trust issues, has led to the lack of confidence in both my spouse and I. So, I am fighting hard to quite talking about it with her, as it just wears her out after a point. Keep your chin up and together we can win our loves back. Be positive about it, till they either tell us to go or we have a sense of it may work. I know one thing, I expect a quick fix and have learned the hard way that it could take months of constant working and then when it is put together. Its gonna take daily work to continue with a strong marriage.


Thanks CB! Appreciate the encouragement. We can get through this and like you said keep our chins up and be strong. I have found some good in Mort Fertels emails and from comments from people like you.

Thanks you.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

So we visited the MC on Saturday morn and made the simple request for touching and contacting. No touching from her at all on Saturday or Sunday, Monday all day at work, not one call or email.

You would think with 16 years of a mostly good marriage together she would be polite and just show she can drop a 10 second phone call or email. Both are very painless and don't take much time. This is something I have done everyday to show I care.


It almost makes me want to say I am done, she can have her way, and I can get on looking for a nice person to have in my life.


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## VLR (May 15, 2011)

If you say you are done, be prepared for it to be completely over. Your choice, but, like I said before, you aren't going to be able to get her to do little things that tell you she cares because... she doesn't care.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

VLR said:


> If you say you are done, be prepared for it to be completely over. Your choice, but, like I said before, you aren't going to be able to get her to do little things that tell you she cares because... she doesn't care.


She does care, or she would not have broken down when I did the 180 and certainly would not be going to MC.

I believe this is something else. I suspect she is doing what CharlieBrown was talking about, taking control. She does not want me directing her, even if it is a simple request that could be good for both of us, certainly me. 

She is not the same person I married at this stage of her life. Being cold and heartless would have never made me propose to her.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

This is me said:


> She does care, or she would not have broken down when I did the 180 and certainly would not be going to MC.
> 
> I believe this is something else. I suspect she is doing what CharlieBrown was talking about, taking control. She does not want me directing her, even if it is a simple request that could be good for both of us, certainly me.
> 
> She is not the same person I married at this stage of her life. Being cold and heartless would have never made me propose to her.


Are you forgetting that she wanted out? She needs space right now. Give her time to warm up to you. Do you want her to touch you and feel resentment or do you want her to touch you and feel love? 

I told my H that I wanted to leave in November. Just recently I've started to touch him and mean it. Yes, I'd put forth the effort before, but it felt almost...wrong? 

To me our marriage is now new. I'm not willing to accept the old marriage and he's working hard to change the things that made me want out. What works is pretending like we're dating. Would you tell your date that she needed to touch you or would you do things to _entice_ her to touch you?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

If she reached the point of wanting a divorce--or at least saying that--then yes, you may well be asking too much, too soon. For her, anyway. She can only heal on her timetable, not yours. 

If you want "resolution at any cost" (because that is the goal of YOUR timetable), by all means insist on what you want. That is your prerogative. Just keep in mind that at this point, she IS showing an effort--by not leaving, by attending counseling. If you really want the marriage to last, then you may have to consider giving her more time. 

If the time it takes her is too long for you, you have the right to be done with it and move on. Amplexor wrote recently that it took his wife about 2 years or so to get to a decent "moving forward" point--but she stayed those 2 years, rather than leaving. He's happy with the outcome; he was willing to wait. Not everyone will be. That's the risk your wife took when she brought up divorce--that you might actually decide that you want to go through with it. You now take a risk by deciding how long you can wait. If repairing the marriage is your goal, then patience is advised. How long? Only you can tell what you can take.


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## CharlieBrown (May 10, 2011)

I would say stop with the daily calls to her. You have to let her know or at least assume you are moving on with your life. Im not doing that real good myself, as I just want to live with her forever, but realize, there is going to be a lot of effort and work involved to get to that point. But maybe as the others have said. Though its so hard, stop for awhile. I think if you do, you might be surprised in a few days. Remember, she is the one that called out the D word. So her love bucket is not very full of deposits from you. Be nice towards her but if she is asking for space, you have to let her have some. I know its terribly hard, I have had the EXACT same thoughts as you. It takes two for the marriage to work. But....It takes one to step up, give some time for wounds to heal. And after awhile, I would expect that either you will BOTH agree to move forward together, or BOTH of you will see that there is no way to repair the damage that has been done. Keep venting. Personally, I believe it helps.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

WhereAmI said:


> Are you forgetting that she wanted out? She needs space right now. Give her time to warm up to you. Do you want her to touch you and feel resentment or do you want her to touch you and feel love?
> 
> I told my H that I wanted to leave in November. Just recently I've started to touch him and mean it. Yes, I'd put forth the effort before, but it felt almost...wrong?
> 
> To me our marriage is now new. I'm not willing to accept the old marriage and he's working hard to change the things that made me want out. What works is pretending like we're dating. Would you tell your date that she needed to touch you or would you do things to _entice_ her to touch you?


I appreciate your POV. If the request was something more than a one second acknowledement that I am here and working towards repairing with her, I would agree. The fact is we are not dating, so the comparison does not apply from my POV. We vowed through thick and thin, and right now I believe she should give a one second touch with her husband, which is less contact than a handshake with a stranger, if only to show respect for 16 years together. Anything less seems to be pure disrespect for the guy who has stood faithfully with her day after day.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> If she reached the point of wanting a divorce--or at least saying that--then yes, you may well be asking too much, too soon. For her, anyway. She can only heal on her timetable, not yours.
> 
> If you want "resolution at any cost" (because that is the goal of YOUR timetable), by all means insist on what you want. That is your prerogative. Just keep in mind that at this point, she IS showing an effort--by not leaving, by attending counseling. If you really want the marriage to last, then you may have to consider giving her more time.
> 
> If the time it takes her is too long for you, you have the right to be done with it and move on. Amplexor wrote recently that it took his wife about 2 years or so to get to a decent "moving forward" point--but she stayed those 2 years, rather than leaving. He's happy with the outcome; he was willing to wait. Not everyone will be. That's the risk your wife took when she brought up divorce--that you might actually decide that you want to go through with it. You now take a risk by deciding how long you can wait. If repairing the marriage is your goal, then patience is advised. How long? Only you can tell what you can take.


Good points! I understand patience is the ultimate virtue at this point. I guess the part that is most bothersome is the fact she held it all from me and blindsided me with the call for divorce. Everyone I know thought we had the perfect marriage including me. I am, according to some, a rare guy who goes above and beyond in my duties that are not typical for the male role. This includes things like cleaning bathrooms, laundry, grocery shopping and spending countless hours patiently in stores while she spends our money (not complaining). Doing all this prior to D day and getting very little appreciation in return. Now this. 

I still think there is something more going on with her mid 40 age that triggered a different and less loving women to show up in our marriage.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

CharlieBrown said:


> I would say stop with the daily calls to her. You have to let her know or at least assume you are moving on with your life. Im not doing that real good myself, as I just want to live with her forever, but realize, there is going to be a lot of effort and work involved to get to that point. But maybe as the others have said. Though its so hard, stop for awhile. I think if you do, you might be surprised in a few days. Remember, she is the one that called out the D word. So her love bucket is not very full of deposits from you. Be nice towards her but if she is asking for space, you have to let her have some. I know its terribly hard, I have had the EXACT same thoughts as you. It takes two for the marriage to work. But....It takes one to step up, give some time for wounds to heal. And after awhile, I would expect that either you will BOTH agree to move forward together, or BOTH of you will see that there is no way to repair the damage that has been done. Keep venting. Personally, I believe it helps.


Thanks again CB and all for allowing me to vent. Her bucket must have a hole in it. I have always been the one to give the nice surprises, cards, unexpected gifts, plus expressions of love towards her. So it baffles me how it came to this.

I will pace myself, give her space and keep showing I care. I hope her heart returns to it's former beauty.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This,
Read the link below. Which of you is the "hot" partner?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html



This is me said:


> Thanks again CB and all for allowing me to vent. Her bucket must have a hole in it. I have always been the one to give the nice surprises, cards, unexpected gifts, plus expressions of love towards her. So it baffles me how it came to this.
> 
> I will pace myself, give her space and keep showing I care. I hope her heart returns to it's former beauty.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This,
> Read the link below. Which of you is the "hot" partner?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


I would rather be hot than a cold person. It takes two people with warmth to build a relationship and only one to turn cold to ruin it. If her behavior was cold when we met, we would have never become husband and wife.

The question is how do I get her to warm up like all good relationships require. Any thoughts? 

Not responding like a cold person is what lead to D day. I stopped calling, emailing and basically behaved like she was and it backfired.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This,
There are two totally distinct situations that "externally" look the same. And those situations require very different approaches. 
1. She gradually became less and less happy with you and the marriage and you didn't pick up on the warning signs. For a female (absent a clear cut medical problem) the first place a loss of love manifests itself is in the bedroom. So your sex life drops off a a fair amount in terms of quality/quantity under the guise of "she is tired/stressed/add never ending list of excuses". The truth is she is not into YOU for whatever the list of reasons is and many of them might be quite valid. Including you may be conflict avoidant and "too nice". 
2. She meets someone else and falls for them even if there is no physical relationship. 

The approach to take for 1 is very different than that for 2. 

BTW: IF your sex life was good/very good right up until talk of divorce it is much more likely a case of (2) than (1). 




This is me said:


> I would rather be hot than a cold person. It takes two people with warmth to build a relationship and only one to turn cold to ruin it. If her behavior was cold when we met, we would have never become husband and wife.
> 
> The question is how do I get her to warm up like all good relationships require. Any thoughts?
> 
> Not responding like a cold person is what lead to D day. I stopped calling, emailing and basically behaved like she was and it backfired.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This,
> There are two totally distinct situations that "externally" look the same. And those situations require very different approaches.
> 1. She gradually became less and less happy with you and the marriage and you didn't pick up on the warning signs. For a female (absent a clear cut medical problem) the first place a loss of love manifests itself is in the bedroom. So your sex life drops off a a fair amount in terms of quality/quantity under the guise of "she is tired/stressed/add never ending list of excuses". The truth is she is not into YOU for whatever the list of reasons is and many of them might be quite valid. Including you may be conflict avoidant and "too nice".
> 2. She meets someone else and falls for them even if there is no physical relationship.
> ...



Appreciate the thought. The fact her interest in the sex life dropped dramatically after the first few months of marriage 16 years ago. It was pointed out to her then and really did not change much up until a few months ago. She has never been one to initiate, except when dating.

We are both from large families. Mine are very much a touch and hugging group, hers barely shakes hands at gatherings. Rarely a kiss from any of them at greetings or departures. It would be hard to use the touching and intimacy thing as a barometer when it comes to her family.

She is still sharing with me, but her desire for her own satisfaction is almost nil, which is not much different than recent years.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Is it asking too much? Apparently yes, it is. I think the great unspoken truth is that a goodly # of women and a smaller # men have sex to snare a partner. Once the ring is on the finger, the love boat is decommissioned and sold for scrap. All the jumping through hoops, therapy and second guessing isn't going to fix that. Why? Because it's their plan. Just like some people get married and turn out to be fat sloppy unemployed losers, there are people out there, and they really exist, for whom sex exists to trick someone into hitch up with them. And it lasts for as long as it lasts until something better comes along. 

I am a firm believer in the axiom that things aren't more complicated than they appear at first blush. If it seems simple it IS simple. Like the bank robber Willy Sutton; when asked why he robbed banks, he said "Because that's where the money is".


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

This is ME it isn't wrong for you to make a small request what is wrong is you demanding it which is what you are doing. ASking is saying I would like it if you do this bust accepting no as an answer. You are giving her no choice. I have made requests of my spouse since we hit the snag. However when she doesn't honor one I tell myself she is not ready yet and table it for a later time. I can't force her to act one way or another, you can't force yours to act one way or another. Ultimatley we (collective we) are in this mess because of a lack of respecting people's boundries and needs.

She is going to counciling with you, she hasn't divorced you yet. She is putting that talk aside. Yes you have a need not being met but you must put it aside for the time being as she has clearly expressed she is not ready yet to fill that need.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This,
Let me try to clear a few things up so that my viewpoint maybe makes more sense to you. 

First of all I will give you some context:
- I am a "high" touch person. I touch my W a LOT. Mostly in a non-sexual affectionate way. The fact that I "initiate" most of this touch does not make me hot and her cold because she likes/loves to be touched. I would say we are both warm, with me being more proactive. This is perfectly fine with me. The hot/cold or warm/cool concept comes into play when the person being touched is not responding positively to it. So the hot/cold concept isn't about whether you are always initiating it is about how your partner responds when you do initiate. And none of this is absolute. My W absolutely does not wish to be touched while she eats breakfast. This is simply a strong preference she has that I have no issue with and completely respect. 

But the concept applies to ANY love language. If I were the one to initiate most text/emails/calls to my W and she reacted in an unwelcoming way that is definitely a hot/cold interaction. Were that to happen I would cut back, maybe stop altogether. It isn't nice to crowd someone. With that said if that were to happen on the physical side I would ask her if everything was ok. If she stonewalled me, I would sharply cut back on both the time I spend with her and the priority she gets when we are together. Now that works for me, because she very much enjoys my company and being my highest priority. So when I start to deprioritize her she adjusts her behavior quickly. But all of that is predicated on me being "good" at "her". 

BTW - if I overdid the touch/the non touch attention etc. she WOULD respond badly. She would not like being "crowded" nor would she tolerate a "clingy" partner. So lets simply accept that I am calibrated to her thermostat setting and it works well for us. 

As for sex - the first 15 years I did all the initiating. And she very rarely rejected me - and in fact would normally simply ask if we could connect the next day. And then we would. After the first 15 years she started initiating more often. We both make an effort not to reject each other. 

And FWIW if my W ever took some mans head in her hands and kissed him on the lips in front of me we would have a very calm, very direct conversation when we got home. Because if I did that with a woman in front of her, she would FREAK. While I wouldn't freak, we would have a conversation that would impact whether or not we stayed married. 




This is me said:


> Appreciate the thought. The fact her interest in the sex life dropped dramatically after the first few months of marriage 16 years ago. It was pointed out to her then and really did not change much up until a few months ago. She has never been one to initiate, except when dating.
> 
> We are both from large families. Mine are very much a touch and hugging group, hers barely shakes hands at gatherings. Rarely a kiss from any of them at greetings or departures. It would be hard to use the touching and intimacy thing as a barometer when it comes to her family.
> 
> She is still sharing with me, but her desire for her own satisfaction is almost nil, which is not much different than recent years.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Mem,

I appreciate you clearing that up for me. This makes much more sense to me and will attempt to use it as a guideline.

Again, thank you.


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