# When to Confront? Do I have enough?



## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

Married 12 years years, two young kids. No prior history of infidelity except each of us had an EA approximately 8-9 years ago. 

Several months ago, my wife tried to get me to agree to an "open marriage." When I didn't agree, she emotionally blackmailed me with the threat of leaving, and at first I thought "well for the sake of the kids maybe." I briefly toyed with the idea of seeing other women too, but ultimately it never sat right with me. Even just knowing that my wife was messaging with guys online sent me into a rage. (note: this was not a "guy waiting in the wings" situation, she started talking to guys online after we talked). Before she slept with anyone I called it off and said I wasn't ok with it. However she went and slept with someone anyway, basically throwing it in my face (i.e. she told me where she was going and she told me she slept with him). Shortly after that she agreed to end it, but then a few days later I discovered she was still messaging with the guy. This was all back in December. I confronted her. We started counselling etc. She agreed that open marriage was not going to work. For what it's worth, I saw some of their messages, and I got the impression that he was a younger single guy who only wanted a no-strings-attached thing. She originally told him we had an open marriage. When she finally admitted that we didn't, he seemed to lose interest and said that he didn't want to interfere in a marriage (which I read as "I don't want a complicated situation or a mad husband coming after me.")

Suspicions lingered in my mind and of course my trust was damaged. I didn't 100% get the feeling she was sorry, she seemed ambivalent, frustrated that she had to call it off. However as far as I could tell she deleted the secretive messaging apps from her phone and I found no evidence she was still in touch with him, and his number didn't show up on our phone bills either. 

More recently, however, I discovered condoms in her purse. Then I also discovered condoms in her other bag. We have a box of condoms we keep, so I started counting them, and how many were in her purse. A couple days ago I noticed there were fewer condoms in the box. Then a couple days ago she suddenly brings up open marriage again, she wants me to read a book about it. I say flat out no. 

Last night she went to a regular Monday night activity she goes to -- an art group. We have one car that I drive to work and she sometimes drives to other things (she takes public transit to work). Tonight, after I got home and parked, I found a pair of men's gloves in our backseat. Admittedly, this seemed a little odd to me -- did they have sex in the car? There are two kids carseats in the back so they couldn't have done it in the back. We live in a very densely populated city and it wouldn't be easy to find a secluded place to park the car for that. Otherwise though I don't see how a grown man's gloves would wind up in the backseat -- had she just given someone a ride and he forgot them, they'd be in the front seat. They have sex, he tosses them in back in the moment, right? No idea whether it's the guy from December or some other guy, but it doesn't much matter.

So is that airtight? Men's gloves in the car and I counted the condoms? Enough to confront?

Also, when do I confront her? We are supposed to go on a family vacation next week and part of me wants to wait til we get back and just put it out of my head so I can at least relax on the beach and not deal with fights the whole time. I've had a rough several months, to put it mildly. I'm riding out the storm but it's a bad storm. A test of my mental and emotional toughness for sure. I feel very alone and I feel like she has taken away my sense of security.

In a weird way, I would feel almost relieved to just know at this point, to be sure it happened. I don't know whether the marriage is salvageable, and I've been mentally preparing myself for the possibility of it ending (another question -- should I talk to a lawyer before I confront?), but a little part of me hopes/wishes it can be saved, because of our kids, our history and a thread of love that I am still hanging onto although she is really coming close to snapping it.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

welldusted said:


> Married 12 years years, two young kids. No prior history of infidelity except each of us had an EA approximately 8-9 years ago.
> 
> *Several months ago, my wife tried to get me to agree to an "open marriage." When I didn't agree, she emotionally blackmailed me with the threat of leaving*, and at first I thought "well for the sake of the kids maybe." I briefly toyed with the idea of seeing other women too, but ultimately it never sat right with me. Even just knowing that my wife was messaging with guys online sent me into a rage. (note: this was not a "guy waiting in the wings" situation, she started talking to guys online after we talked). Before she slept with anyone I called it off and said I wasn't ok with it. However she went and slept with someone anyway, basically throwing it in my face (i.e. she told me where she was going and she told me she slept with him). Shortly after that she agreed to end it, but then a few days later I discovered she was still messaging with the guy. This was all back in December. I confronted her. We started counselling etc. She agreed that open marriage was not going to work. For what it's worth, I saw some of their messages, and I got the impression that he was a younger single guy who only wanted a no-strings-attached thing. She originally told him we had an open marriage. When she finally admitted that we didn't, he seemed to lose interest and said that he didn't want to interfere in a marriage (which I read as "I don't want a complicated situation or a mad husband coming after me.")
> 
> ...


I will re-read this more in detail tomorrow but as for right now:

1. What I bolded has effectively ended your marriage, you are no longer dealing with anyone you want to trust or be married to.

2. From what you have gathered, yes there's an affair for sure but NO, you do not have enough evidence to confront or to use to your benefit. It will be harder than hell but lay low and DO NOT lead onto anything. See if you can get into phone, computer, phone records, etc. And get proof that a court would consider adultery. 

You should get more/better advice from the vets on her within the next 24 hours. I must repeat though, no matter the urge, do not confront now, you would lose any evidence gathering advantage you have if you do.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

I see quite a few post where folks say they have a vacation planned,and want to wait until after vacation. I for one would not have a good time dealing with someone that was cheating on me.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

Lostme said:


> I see quite a few post where folks say they have a vacation planned,and want to wait until after vacation. I for one would not have a good time dealing with someone that was cheating on me.


Of course. I'm not having a good time now either. But it's booked, we're taking the kids, and my parents are coming for part of it too.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

stillfightingforus said:


> I will re-read this more in detail tomorrow but as for right now:
> 
> 
> 2. From what you have gathered, yes there's an affair for sure but NO, you do not have enough evidence to confront or to use to your benefit. It will be harder than hell but lay low and DO NOT lead onto anything. See if you can get into phone, computer, phone records, etc. And get proof that a court would consider adultery.


What is the purpose for the court? Does it matter in custody? I thought most courts don't do fault divorce anymore. I live in a no-fault state. Also, she already admitted cheating the first time, so wouldn't that be enough?


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

welldusted said:


> Lostme said:
> 
> 
> > I see quite a few post where folks say they have a vacation planned,and want to wait until after vacation. I for one would not have a good time dealing with someone that was cheating on me.
> ...


You actually might have a better shot at getting phone evidence on vacation because her guard will be down a bit and may leave the phone away from her at times. If you can get in it. Make an excuse to leave and see of you can go to where phone is to check.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Time to wise up already — either she was already sleeping around when she brought up the open marriage or she already had someone waiting in the wings.

“I want an open marriage” means “I’m already sleeping around, and I want you to be OK with it so that you can’t accuse me of cheating when you find out”.

Either way, she’s shown you repeatedly that she has no intention of staying faithful.

Cancel the vacation and confront with divorce papers.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Time to wise up already — either she was already sleeping around when she brought up the open marriage or she already had someone waiting in the wings.
> 
> “I want an open marriage” means “I’m already sleeping around, and I want you to be OK with it so that you can’t accuse me of cheating when you find out”.
> 
> ...


I have proof she didn't have someone waiting in the wings, that she met him after. It really doesn't matter though. She cheated either way.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Your behavior is very doormatish which means you're going to get walked on and probably played as well.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

stillfightingforus said:


> You actually might have a better shot at getting phone evidence on vacation because her guard will be down a bit and may leave the phone away from her at times. If you can get in it. Make an excuse to leave and see of you can go to where phone is to check.


Unfortunately I don't have her pincode anymore (another bad sign, I know).


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Check your phone bill online. That'll probably tell who it is and how long it's been going on.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

OP. She goes out and ****s other guys, and you are still with her? She trows it in your face and you're still with her? You know that she's still doing it and you're still with her?

She must view you as a weak man for whom she obviously has not respect. You are showing her how she can treat you with your weak passive behavior. 

I don't know what's going on these days with a big percentage of men that do not know how to be assertive, in control and being men that under not circumstances would take **** like this happening in their faces.

OP man-up, get your self respect as a man. If you have children is this how'd you'll like them to see you? A man that does not respect himself by having allowed your wife to cheat on you and throw it your face and you just rug-swep it. Why do you have to wait to confront? What is it that you're expecting to happen when confronting? You want her to keep you, and only you?

Please, get a lawyer, if you haven't done so, and get rid of the skank of a wife you have. Please have some self-respect.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Your behavior is very doormatish which means you're going to get walked on and probably played as well.


Do you have anything helpful to say? I shut down the open marriage idea before she had slept with someone. I don't know what else I could have done. I'm getting prepared to walk away from her now.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

welldusted said:


> Do you have anything helpful to say? I shut down the open marriage idea before she had slept with someone. I don't know what else I could have done. I'm getting prepared to walk away from her now.


Good, talking won't get you much except an extended stay in limbo hell.

Better see a good attorney and get your ducks in a row first


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

Rob_1 said:


> OP. She goes out and ****s other guys, and you are still with her? She trows it in your face and you're still with her? You know that she's still doing it and you're still with her?
> 
> She must view you as a weak man for whom she obviously has not respect. You are showing her how she can treat you with your weak passive behavior.
> 
> ...


I think you're right. There's no benefit in confronting anymore. If no kids were in the picture I would have walked out already, which I told her. I'm setting up a consult with a lawyer tomorrow. 

Everything you say about self-respect is right, in theory, and true. In reality it's very hard to just walk out on someone you've known most of your grown life especially with kids in the picture, especially when, until now, nothing like this has ever happened and then suddenly she changes. If this had been a girlfriend it would have been over in two seconds. I said no to the whole thing, I shut it down, but she never really accepted it. She'll be worse off than me in the end, a lonely single mom. But divorce will be hard for me too and for the kids.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Just offering a female perspective.
> 
> Any woman who would do this, doesn't love you or respect you.
> 
> ...


Thank you, it helps a lot to hear that right now, really does.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

welldusted said:


> What is the purpose for the court? Does it matter in custody? I thought most courts don't do fault divorce anymore. I live in a no-fault state. Also, she already admitted cheating the first time, so wouldn't that be enough?


I live in a no fault state as well and am in the starting processes of the divorce with 2 kids. It's no-fault, meaning that either party can get a divorce without having to prove anything but in terms of alimony, custody, etc, it's a small factor but still a factor. One of like 10 things they consider in my state. It affects custody if it hampers her parenting, if she's using marital funds for the affair or if she would bring AP around kids.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Cancel the vacation.

Tell your parents

Tell her your done then go dark and only talk to her about the kids.

Cancel all joint credit cards

Take her off your insurance


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Be smart man. Plan an exit strategy immediately. Get a lawyer and file. Tell her that neither of you want to be in this relationship anymore but you are willing to do whatbit take to maintain a cordial relationship with her. That is always the most important part.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

welldusted said:


> Do you have anything helpful to say? I shut down the open marriage idea before she had slept with someone. I don't know what else I could have done. I'm getting prepared to walk away from her now.


I guess some of us here are just amazed at the tolerance some people seem to have for their spouse sleeping around. I mean condoms are disappearing etc and you still want to know if you need more evidence? You're going to go on vacation with your wife? Seriously? You say it bothers you but your story makes me believe it doesn't bother you so much as perhaps it should. The fact that an open marriage was even a question at one point says something. 

There are some guys that wallow in the pain and need a push to get them off their ass, but at least they give the impression they are seriously feeling the pain. Those guys are easier to give advice to. I don't get that impression so much with you..... So by all means contact a divorce lawyer, serve her papers, yada, yada. Does that help?


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

Rhubarb said:


> I guess some of us here are just amazed at the tolerance some people seem to have for their spouse sleeping around. I mean condoms are disappearing etc and you still want to know if you need more evidence? You're going to go on vacation with your wife? Seriously? You say it bothers you but your story makes me believe it doesn't bother you so much as perhaps it should. The fact that an open marriage was even a question at one point says something.
> 
> There are some guys that wallow in the pain and need a push to get them off their ass, but at least they give the impression they are seriously feeling the pain. Those guys are easier to give advice to. I don't get that impression so much with you..... So by all means contact a divorce lawyer, serve her papers, yada, yada. Does that help?


Believe me there is pain, if it doesn't show it's because I'm running on fumes, barely slept last two nights. When she agreed that the whole "open" thing was a bad idea and closed it I was skeptical but willing to give reconciliation a chance, go to counseling etc. At first she seemed to regret it a lot. She had just gone through a personal/family crisis. For a little while it seemed like maybe we could reach a peace. Then I made this new discovery in the last couple days. I know my post probably doesn't sound like the typical reaction, but it's just because I'm exhausted and overwhelmed right now. The whole thing almost doesn't feel real.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Give yourself a break.

Drink plenty of fluids (but no booze) and get some rest. If you can tolerate it, take half a Benadryl to help you get to sleep.

Maybe talk with your boss in the morning to let him know you need to take a couple of personal days.

Formulate a plan and follow through.

Read up on and implement the 180 — not to get your wife back, but to help you to detach from her.

Lots to do.

For now, get some rest.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

welldusted said:


> I have proof she didn't have someone waiting in the wings, that she met him after. It really doesn't matter though. She cheated either way.


This doesn’t mean she didn’t sleep with someone before this. 

Confront with divorce papers in hand or get use to being cockolded. She is not going to stop. 

Why in the world are you going on a vacation during this? 

Stop being a doormat and grow a set, your actions are driving the situation at this time. Drive it in another direction.


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## Suspicious1 (Nov 19, 2017)

How old are you both?

How old are you the children?

I had to jump ship when my W want to bang some guy and me keep the bed warm once she was done.

I had two kids, a boy who was 7-8, and a little sweet girl 5-6 years old. 

It was the hardest thing I've had ever done, grab my [email protected]$# and take off. Didnt have a pot to piss in.

My son who's 27 years old told me recently that he felt as a kid I always wanted to be there with them.That made me feel like a hero and that I did do the right thing.

As long as you're whole heartily there for your kids they'll understand the why.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

Suspicious1 said:


> How old are you both?
> 
> How old are you the children?
> 
> ...


late 30s, kids are 6 and 2. The 6-year-old is daddy's girl and I don't think anything will ever break the bond we have. The 2-year-old is still more attached to mommy and won't understand as much what's going on.

I'd probably try to get an apartment somewhere not too far so I could take them to school if they stayed with me and not disrupt their lives.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

ABHale said:


> Why in the world are you going on a vacation during this?


For the kids, and because its paid for.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

welldusted said:


> For the kids, and because its paid for.


No amount of money is worth the heartache you are receiving.

I would go without her.

"Wife, it is clear you want an open marriage. I can't stop you, nor do I have any interest in trying. You are welcome to continue having sex with other men, just not as my wife. I have consulted an attorney, filed the paperwork, and you will be served on X day, with an anticipated finalizing x months from now. Start thinking about how we can divide custody and assets in a fair manner, especially for our kids."

Then walk away. She will likely get mad, and try to deny. Just hold your hand up and say:

"It really tells me how little you respect me that you can look me in the eye while lying to me, and then actually expect me to believe it."

Then walk away again.

Dude...love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.


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## Goose54 (Feb 11, 2018)

F*** that brother, either I would go or she could go but not together.

IMO you have enough, it’s not “is she cheating” it’s “is she cheating, AGAIN”. Your gut and the disappearing condoms PERIOD. See a lawyer and start the D process, it can always be stopped if she wakes ups.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OK so divorce is hard - we all know that but often it is far better and healthier for all concerned than staying in a toxic marriage.


Was she always as 50:50 as she now appears to be or was there a time when she was passionately and madly in love with you ?

If she was always 50:50 then she was never in love with you and it would be interesting to know why she married you.
If she was once passionately in love with you, then what changed and when ? How was it handled ?

I agree with the others that say if she asked for an open marriage then she is definitely not in love with you anymore and this marriage is eventually doomed no matter what she "agrees" to now. More importantly, she has lost respect for you and this will eventually destroy you if you do not get out of there fast - this, in turn, will affect the family and the way your kids will eventually view you.

You know she is a cheat and has lied to you before. What you described of her behaviour after that does not even come close to remorse. You know she is carrying condoms in her purse - that is enough info (no need to count them) - what else would she want condoms for?

I would consult an attorney and protect yourself financially and with respect to custody asap. See more than one for initial consultations and make sure you see the best ones (so that she cannot use them afterwards). Gather information that will help your custody case and the ability to cite adultery as the reason for divorce. Separate your finances and file for divorce (you can always cancel this if by some miracle she changes and becomes truly remorseful, respects you and falls in love with you).

Next let her parents and yours know that you will be splitting up and why. Don't get her fired at work but if you do find another OM that is not single, let his wife or girlfriend know.

As for the holiday, since the kids are looking forward to it, go - but let her know that you are only going on this for the sake of the kids and not to have too many expectations for fun and relaxation. If you went, you know that you would not be able to relax anyway (unless you are adept at rugsweeping or burying your head in the sand). 

Then do the 180 - only communicate in short (unemotional) sentences regarding the divorce or the children. Eventually you are going to have to tell the children and may need to discuss how and when this is done. Do not lie - just make it palatable for young children.

You really need to get going on this because she has definitely gone underground with this. Also the business of not having a man in the wings until after talking to you about an open marriage - she may not have done anything about it but for sure she was eyeing up potential men well before. She had a pretty good idea of where to go look. This has been on her mind for some time now and I would be interested in knowing your answers to the questions I posed at the start of this post.

Take care.


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

Major disrespect. She has no fear of you or losing you. Zero. How can you stand it? 

1) Simply asking you for an open marriage is disrespectful in my eyes. But that's just me. 
2) Threatening or blackmailing you
3) TELLING you she had sex with another man and throwing it up on your face. (This all by itself is as disrespectful as it gets.)
4) Continuing to pursue opportunities. 

If you don't take control of your situation, she will for as long as you let her. It' her past and present actions on why you're here, but it's YOUR all on where this goes from here.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Why confront? It's as plain as the nose on your face what it is that she's doing!

You need to be in a good piranha family attorneys office preparing to end this disgusting shell of a marriage!*


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Yeah I never get the "I'm going on a vacation next week, I want to relax and enjoy myself.."

How exactly does that work?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Confrontation is only done if you hope to salvage the marriage.

Right now, she definitely isn't into salvaging anything.

And marriage isn't a one-man-band.

I'd say skip the confrontation, have her served, follow through with divorce, heal, and find a woman who is better monogamous marriage material.

Anything else is just pain shopping.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Let's see whether you can come up with any more excuses for not dumping her. I'd bet that six months from now you'll still be in the same place. Some BSs never get off the dime.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

I never understand this hesitation to confront. I'd confront immediately at the most minor infraction. I'd take a "nip it in the bud" approach. You're already way past the bud. You've got fully blossomed cheating going on. You're still questioning whether to confront? Family vacation? Not happening if my wife were carrying on like yours is. She's literally openly voluntarily destroying your marriage and not really giving a darn how you feel about it.

"When to confront? Do I have enough?"
Are you kidding me with those questions?
Quick answers:
IMMEDIATELY
MORE THAN ENOUGH


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

We know what she is doing, but what is she saying? Does she want to work on the marriage? If so, she should have no problem handing you her phone... 

Ask her on vacation in front of the parents...


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## Suspicious1 (Nov 19, 2017)

BobSimmons said:


> Yeah I never get the "I'm going on a vacation next week, I want to relax and enjoy myself.."
> 
> How exactly does that work?


Certainty sounds like a recipe for disaster, and the potential of something going horribly wrong! 
You know cliffs, unfamiliar paths to get easily lost, etc.

But me in that setting, I not going to have fun, neither is anyone else. 

Or you can use it in a positive way, spend all the time with the kids, and built some long lasting memories, take lots of pictures tons of pictures, none with the wife or delete/crop the ones with the Slur* 
No activities with her either, none what so ever.
You can tell her go bang the locals, knock herself out. You just spend beautiful quality time with the kiddies! 



Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

manfromlamancha said:


> OK so divorce is hard - we all know that but often it is far better and healthier for all concerned than staying in a toxic marriage.
> 
> 
> Was she always as 50:50 as she now appears to be or was there a time when she was passionately and madly in love with you ?
> ...


So to answer this, we met about 17 years ago and were madly in love. We were also very young, early 20s. We had problems at times, and there were bad signs about her personality that I sometimes wish I took as reason to break up, but I was young and relatively inexperienced and had a "take the good with the bad" approach, since she was also the most I had ever fallen in love with someone and loved me too, and we had a lot in common, a lot of shared interests, a lot to talk about, what I thought were similar values etc. We even talked about how important loyalty was to us, and tbh for most of the marriage I got the sense that it was. 

There were problems she raised that I probably could have addressed better and there were also problems I had with her that I rug-swept. She could be a real ***** sometimes to be honest, and there were occasions when she acted a little crazy. I was probably too dependent and too passive. But most of the time we got along and talked and made each other laugh and it seemed ok.

We had a sex life and never a dead bedroom, but it got to be a sort of 1-2x per week bland sort of sex. She sometimes told me she was bored with our sex life, but I couldn't get her to express what she wanted. I was willing to try things. I was also a little bored because I felt like she wasn't really fully "there" when we had sex. I got into better shape, started lifting, and that seemed to help, but it wasn't enough for her I guess.

Basically I would say most of the time it was an ok to pretty good marriage and I was complacent. We had beautiful kids, were building a decent financial future, things mostly seemed to be on track. When we fought we resolved it soon after. We always talked, we went on dates, it wasn't perfect but it seemed to me like "this is what marriage is like after a while and it's fine." There was a phase when the kids' sleep problems interfered with our sex life, but we had started to fix that too and have sex regularly again.

She always had major problems with her relationship with her parents and it spilled into our marriage a lot. She fought with them a lot, she got miserable about the way they treated her a lot and it affected us. Recently she had a huge blow-up with them and her father stopped speaking to her. That led to some kind of crisis for her and then a few weeks later she proposed the open marriage. That's another reason I don't think it was an idea that came from previous cheating. She changed suddenly after the falling out with her dad. Her sex drive went way up. She wanted more sex with me too, we started to have sex every night, wilder, rougher, etc. Part of the reason I didn't rush to divorce right away over the "open marriage" thing was that I thought maybe something was wrong with her, like she was manic or something. But now that whole manic feeling I got from her is settled down and she's cheating, so that was just an excuse. 

It's been a painful few months, but I've come to understand a lot of things about myself. I learned to stop being afraid of being without her, I learned to stop seeing myself through her eyes. I don't care anymore what she thinks some other guy has that I don't have, because I'm not going to measure myself by her standards anymore. I do have balls. I do have a spine.

Thanks for listening and for the advice.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

One client at a previous firm found himself in the situation where his wife was having sex with a group of people. He had no interest in the polyamorous lifestyle. He wanted out of the marriage, but her way out of the marriage hurt him to his core. She used emotional blackmail exclusively to control him. As he prepared all of the documents for his exit, he let it slip to half her group of "friends" that she had syphillis, and did not care who she infected, then he told another of her group that it was wonderful how accepting they were of his wife being HIV positive. In short order, there was not one person in her group that would even talk to her, let alone have sex with her. She had nobody except her husband. When he was sure of that, he handed her the divorce papers and left. She found out some time after about the time-bomb he planted in her social life. By that time nobody she knew could be convinced that she was clean.

I know that she could have come after him legally, and she threatened mightily, but he laughed in her face, and said what are you going to get?


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

You don't even need more. Confront before vacation, or you'll go crazy.

you: we're going to divorce
her: why?
you: you know why, it just depends on how long you're going to lie about it to me before we accept what's going on and move on and focus on being the best possible co-parents we can be


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If she is using your condoms she isn’t really trying to hide it from you. She knows you are suspicious of her simply because she has already cheated.

What size gloves were they? JK


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Ok, my opinion is your marriage has been dead for a while now, and there is no hope of you regaining a marriage with her that is the kind of marriage you will feel happy in. I think you have decided to divorce, but haven't fully come to terms with it.

So first I want to assure you that it is your W who has ended the marriage. You divorcing her just makes it a legal fact. I believe you will be much happier without her. And your kids will be better off in the long run with a divorce rather than having you desperately unhappily married. The ideal situation of a happy marriage with your W and the kids growing up in a happy intact home is just not possible and is not an option. Deal with the reality. Either an unhealthy unhappy home for the kids, or divorced parents where you can provide them with a happy healthy environment when they are with you.

The divorce process isn't fun, but we all get through it. Hire a good lawyer. Know that on the other side things will be so much better for you and the kids.

If you feel in your heart that divorce is the correct choice, I would go on the vacation and try to have as much fun as possible. If you know you're ending the marriage, you can start emotionally detaching from your stbxw. Spend time with the kids, go walk on the beach alone. You don't need a big ugly confrontation with her. You don't need to be angry all the time. Just NEXT her.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

welldusted said:


> So to answer this, we met about 17 years ago and were madly in love. We were also very young, early 20s. We had problems at times, and there were bad signs about her personality that I sometimes wish I took as reason to break up, but I was young and relatively inexperienced and had a "take the good with the bad" approach, since she was also the most I had ever fallen in love with someone and loved me too, and we had a lot in common, a lot of shared interests, a lot to talk about, what I thought were similar values etc. We even talked about how important loyalty was to us, and tbh for most of the marriage I got the sense that it was.
> 
> There were problems she raised that I probably could have addressed better and there were also problems I had with her that I rug-swept. She could be a real ***** sometimes to be honest, and there were occasions when she acted a little crazy. I was probably too dependent and too passive. But most of the time we got along and talked and made each other laugh and it seemed ok.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation. So are you in any doubt whatsoever as to what you need to do next ? You shouldn't be after what you have written above. She cannot be niced out of infidelity. She has to face consequences and the first is you filing (after you have done the necessary groundwork mentioned).


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

welldusted said:


> Of course. I'm not having a good time now either. But it's booked, we're taking the kids, and my parents are coming for part of it too.


Cancel her ticket then go on the vacation and enjoy yourself. Just make sure to file for D first so that you've put an end to communal property when you leave her alone. Transfer half the money into a new bank account that is just under your name and leave half for her. Tell her you want her packed and gone by the time you get back. 

You might think you need more proof to confront, but in reality you neither need more proof nor do you owe her a confrontation. All you need to do is what is best for you. Justifying the end of a marriage doesn't require you do anything other than be personally OK with the actions that you choose to take.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

unfortunately, this is an easy one.

she is not marriage material............ plain and simple.

and i say that in all respect to you with complete understanding as one who has been there and suffered, and self doubted and
agonized through it all.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

welldusted said:


> So to answer this, we met about 17 years ago and were madly in love. We were also very young, early 20s. We had problems at times, and there were bad signs about her personality that I sometimes wish I took as reason to break up, but I was young and relatively inexperienced and had a "take the good with the bad" approach, since she was also the most I had ever fallen in love with someone and loved me too, and we had a lot in common, a lot of shared interests, a lot to talk about, what I thought were similar values etc. We even talked about how important loyalty was to us, and tbh for most of the marriage I got the sense that it was.
> 
> There were problems she raised that I probably could have addressed better and there were also problems I had with her that I rug-swept. She could be a real ***** sometimes to be honest, and there were occasions when she acted a little crazy. I was probably too dependent and too passive. But most of the time we got along and talked and made each other laugh and it seemed ok.
> 
> ...


The bolded above is when she started cheating. After getting plowed by other dudes for a few weeks, the open marriage suggestion was a way to have her cake and eat it too.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Does her family have any history of psychological problems? What you describe - the family discord, the increase in libido - are possible signs to a swing to the manic side of bi-polar disorder. Any other behaviors that demonstrate overtly grandiose outlooks on life? Is she taking on more than she can handle at work? Does she have unrealistic views of what her own capabilities are? Of what she can accomplish? Does she seem to be thinking or talking at a faster clip than normal?

Very difficult to identify this type of illness in this type of forum, of course. But, if there's any family history of bi-polar, you may be looking at an issue that could spiral further out of control is not addressed medically. In many cases, bi-polar patients are resistant to treatment in the manic phase. In some ways, I hope this is just a marital issue and not this type of medical issue. It would be easier on you over the long haul. That said, the overt change in behavior suggests something else may be at work here.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

welldusted said:


> She always had major problems with her relationship with her parents and it spilled into our marriage a lot. She fought with them a lot, she got miserable about the way they treated her a lot and it affected us. Recently she had a huge blow-up with them and her father stopped speaking to her. That led to some kind of crisis for her and then a few weeks later she proposed the open marriage. That's another reason I don't think it was an idea that came from previous cheating. *She changed suddenly after the falling out with her dad. Her sex drive went way up. She wanted more sex with me too, we started to have sex every night, wilder, rougher, etc. * Part of the reason I didn't rush to divorce right away over the "open marriage" thing was that I thought maybe something was wrong with her, like she was manic or something. But now that whole manic feeling I got from her is settled down and she's cheating, so that was just an excuse.
> 
> .


Maybe the falling out with her father was because he found out she was seeing another guy. Have you talked to him about her current behavior?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

She has gone off the rails.

I'd cut up her ticket for the vacation, go with the kids and grandparents and have her served while you are gone.


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

MarriedTex said:


> Does her family have any history of psychological problems? What you describe - the family discord, the increase in libido - are possible signs to a swing to the manic side of bi-polar disorder. Any other behaviors that demonstrate overtly grandiose outlooks on life? Is she taking on more than she can handle at work? Does she have unrealistic views of what her own capabilities are? Of what she can accomplish? Does she seem to be thinking or talking at a faster clip than normal?
> 
> Very difficult to identify this type of illness in this type of forum, of course. But, if there's any family history of bi-polar, you may be looking at an issue that could spiral further out of control is not addressed medically. In many cases, bi-polar patients are resistant to treatment in the manic phase. In some ways, I hope this is just a marital issue and not this type of medical issue. It would be easier on you over the long haul. That said, the overt change in behavior suggests something else may be at work here.


This occurred to me. She has some family history of bipolar yes, and has had some wild mood swings and crazy moments in the past but no full-blown episodes of the type bipolar people I have known had. I don't think it's very common to spring up in late 30s, but maybe it happens. She is seeing a counselor and the counselor did express some concern that she seemed manic (a couple months ago), but she doesn't seem manic right now and she is cheating.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

To answer to the question in the title of this thread you need to stop focusing on the small details and look at the basic facts. 

1) Several months ago when your wife tried to get you to agree to an open marriage "with the threat of leaving" you if you did not agree, this was her telling you that since she was willing to leave you over it, she would have nothing to lose that she was not willing to lose (you) if you caught her cake eating and cheating. In other words she was totally ready to cheat. 

2) Even though you told her that you were not OK with an open marriage, "she went and slept with someone anyway". Then after "she agreed to end it", you "discovered she was still messaging with the guy". In other words she was in fact cheating.

So in answer to the questions "When to Confront? Do I have enough?", you already confronted and had enough when you found out that she slept with the other man ("OM"), and then later broke her promise to end it. The fact that you did not end the marriage right away as you tried to see if you could work it out for the sake of the children, does not change the fact that you are already long past confronting and having enough. You could file for divorce at any time while stating without any doubts that it was because of her cheating. In other words, stop looking for endless evidence as a stall tactic not to make a decision, and either divorce her or accept the open marriage that your wife told you that she was willing end the marriage for. Everything else is just noise.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

I am very sorry you are going through this. I completely understand the hell you are going through. However nobody in life gets a pass on the choices they make.

You need to urgently and swiftly withdraw any monies from joint accounts, cancel any joint credit cards and notify your parents and advise her she is not welcome on the holiday. Book yourself an appointment with a shark of an attorney and file for Divorce. Show no remorse or mercy with her. Unfortunately cheaters like your wife only understand one language and that's a direct hard line response that her shi...t treatment of you will not be tolerated.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

As ice cream sales increase, the rate of drowning deaths increases sharply. Do you think ice cream sales causes drownings?

You have to be careful about correlation vs. causation.

You are telling us about your opinions. Frequently there is lack of honest open communication about sex.

Let's assume basic facts. Your wife loved you. Your wife still loves you. The love within the marriage has changed, both your wife and you. You had a long-term relationship, marriage, two kids and this was a loving relationship for many years. On a scale of 0-10, how selfish has your wife been, and how selfish how you have been, in your opinion? 

Give a few brief examples of how your wife was selfish in the past.

Tell about your wife's "EA."

She told you sex was boring. When did she first say that? When she did, and since then, what has she initiated, besides the open relationship idea? I think her to say this, and do nothing besides say it, is extremely unusual. I think it uncommon to tell a spouse sex is boring, but if the spouse complains, then almost always the spouse is willing to suggest some changes - different acts, adding people, role playing, etc. If she complained about boring sex but gave no suggestions or implications, I would think that as extremely uncommon. My opinion, and I am not an expert, would be that she was ashamed of the acts she wanted, the role-playing, etc.

Back in the day, my friend went to an all-boys high school. There was a "sister" school, and they had dances together. Either the boys or the girls would get kind of shipped in for the dance. Me, I went to a coed high school, and the girls and boys were the students. I remember telling my friend how lucky he was because at the dance, he could say anything he wanted and he wouldn't have to deal with the girls ever again. I was afraid of saying something stupid, or the girls would make fun of me every day at school. My point being, spouses in a marriage are kind of like that. When she steps out with a cheater, or an open relationship, she doesn't have to worry too much about what the guy thinks about her. He or she could easily quit it. Not so her with you. She would have to deal with you for a long time, divorce or not, and she would be aware that you could tell a lot of family and friends that are important to her.

Almost always, when you read these situations posted here, when the wife suggests an open relationship, she already has a guy who has been having sex. I am assuming your assertion, which is a big assumption, that your wife did not have another guy prior to pushing for the open relationship.

My opinion is that the basis of her cheating is the boring sex. Nothing occurs in a vacuum, so very likely there are other things that affected her. Maybe some of it is because the marriage seemed stale for a long time and a friend, a coworker, another parent, or even a story in a fiction movie or book, made her think she could do something to change it.

Every new person who posts, when I read it, to me it seems they really, really want to save their marriage. And are willing to put up with a lot of stuff. And the cheating spouse seems like doesn't care all that much. Cheater is willing to cheat, willing not to end contact with the affair partner, etc., while the betrayed spouse are afraid to confront, afraid to tell the affair partner's spouse, afraid to push too hard on their cheater or else the cheater will leave. A very lopsided relationship. 

Try a short game. Scale of 0-10, what respect would you say your wife has for you? Scale of 0-10, what love does she have for you? Scale of 0-10, what importance does she place on staying married to you? Scale of 0-10, how much importance does she place on an intact family?

Now, go down the next thread from yours where there is a husband being cheated on by a wife. Ask the same questions about the wife in those situations. Then go to the next one and do the same. I think you will see that you see how little the cheating wives care in the other threads here, but you don't see it as bad as your own.

See some of the adjectives you've used about the marriage or you:


madly in love, young and relatively inexperienced,

"take the good with the bad" approach

how important loyalty was to us

There were problems she raised that I probably could have addressed better

 probably too dependent and too passive

1-2x per week bland sort of sex. 

She sometimes told me she was bored with our sex life

she wasn't really fully "there" when we had sex

most of the time it was an ok

I was complacent

"this is what marriage is like after a while and it's fine." 

There was a phase when the kids' sleep problems interfered with our sex life, 

had a huge blow-up with them and her father stopped speaking to her. 

a few weeks later she proposed the open marriage. 

Her sex drive went way up. 

every night, wilder, rougher, etc. 

manic or something. 

I learned to stop being afraid 

I'm not going to measure myself by her 

I do have balls. I do have a spine.

I find it odd that she would have a blow up with her family but wouldn't tell you what it is. How close really were you with your wife? Did she ever tell you her inner thoughts?


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## welldusted (Oct 5, 2015)

OutofRetirement said:


> I find it odd that she would have a blow up with her family but wouldn't tell you what it is. How close really were you with your wife? Did she ever tell you her inner thoughts?


Not sure where you got that. She told me a lot about her blow up with her father, we talked about it a lot. I knew all the details of her relationship with her parents, it was something we discussed a lot over the years. It's just not important to get into the reasons for it here. They had had a very long-running series of blow-ups. Her dad doesn't know how to communicate or how to accept responsibility for anything, and my wife tends to overreact to him and alienate him. It was a pattern. It's very sad, because her father has cancer -- not terminal at this point, but it will likely shorten his life. I knew that deep down she was crying out for love from him and he didn't know how to respond. He was too afraid of her anger, so afraid that he just stopped speaking to her.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

welldusted said:


> For the kids, and because its paid for.


Shows you care for your kids a lot. Just miss guided is all. The best thing to do is to start getting them use to you and your wife not being together. 

If your wife is bipolar make sure you bring this up at first with the custody of your kids. Have a friend who’s wife is bipolar to the point he had custody all through the divorce. His lawyer advised him not to bring up the mental condition of his wife until later. The judge threw it out of court when they did at the end of the custody hearing. Was told it should have been presented at the beginning. His ex now has 50/50 custody. 

Time to be strong for the future of your kids. A single parent is better then a dysfunctional family.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

welldusted said:


> She always had major problems with her relationship with her parents and it spilled into our marriage a lot. She fought with them a lot, she got miserable about the way they treated her a lot and it affected us. Recently she had a huge blow-up with them and her father stopped speaking to her. That led to some kind of crisis for her and then a few weeks later she proposed the open marriage. That's another reason I don't think it was an idea that came from previous cheating. *She changed suddenly after the falling out with her dad. Her sex drive went way up. She wanted more sex with me too, we started to have sex every night, wilder, rougher, etc. * Part of the reason I didn't rush to divorce right away over the "open marriage" thing was that I thought maybe something was wrong with her, like she was manic or something. But now that whole manic feeling I got from her is settled down and she's cheating, so that was just an excuse.


This reminds me of myself not too long ago. While I didn't necessarily have constant problems with my parents as is the case with your wife, I grew up in a home where my father was an abuser, and mom the passive caregiver. My ex and I decided on an open relationship. It was one sided, he wasn't really ok with it although he tried his best to pretend, blew up in our faces really quick. I was so horny and desperate for wild, rough sex during that period. With him particular, I needed it when I was really under pressure with work and my work performance was sub par (by my standards). I assumed at the time it was something to do with growing up in a home where corporal punishment was the norm. Perhaps in my mind I was so used to dealing with physical pain when I did something wrong that I craved it in those circumstances.

Either way, it is clear that your wife has an unhealthy relationship with her parents and seeks the validation that she could not get from them, through sex. That is a recipe for trouble in a relationship, and it is not just going to go away unless your wife recognizes that she has issues and seeks counseling for it. 

Having been through something similar, I can tell you that from her perspective she's in full control when it comes to her body and sex. And she's patting herself on the back for being open-minded about being in an open relationship and being able to get her way sexually. I question whether she doesn't honestly feel deep down that having one stable partner while enjoying sex with others, is the ideal situation for her. It's certainly how I felt when I desperately needed validation through sex. I could've never appreciated sex in a stable relationship or even a stable relationship to begin with, back then.

And please don't take her saying you're boring with regards to sex personally. Did she ever verbalize what it was she wanted instead? Does she get bored easily? I said the same to my ex back then but what I really meant was I wanted sex with multiple people to keep me satisfied and I wanted uber submissive porn-star like sex that would at least temporarily dull the emotional pain inside.

She needs help OP, and you can't give her the help she needs.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

Should have divorced her either after she asked for open marraige or when she cheated.

Proceed to divorce her today.


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## Walloped (Feb 14, 2018)

Just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re going through this.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Well, if condoms are disappearing and its not with you, then its pretty ironclad that she has something on the side. The Open Marriage demand earlier on means she has probably been at this for quite a while. Man's gloves in the backseat? They probably went out for drinks, you know she needs to be wined and dined a little before they screw each others brains out. He left then in the passenger seat, she saw and tossed them in the back so you wouldn't. She sounds so clumsy with her cheating, are you sure you didn't accidentally agree to an open marriage? 

Look she has already cheated and she is cheating now and she will keep cheating. Get an STD test immediately, then get a divorce lawyer. Monogamy isn't in this woman's playbook.


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## skerzoid (Feb 7, 2017)

welldusted:

1. File.
2. Gift wrap the papers.
3. Buy a box of condoms.
4. Gift Wrap the condoms.
5. Gift Wrap the gloves you found
6. Leave them on the dinning room table.
7. Have a note on the gloves that reads "Open Me First".
8. Have a note on the Condom Box that says "Open Me Second."
9. Have a Note inside the condom package that says "I noticed you were running low."
10. Then leave to go on the vacation.
11. Do not answer any phone calls or texts.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

welldusted said:


> Not sure where you got that. She told me a lot about her blow up with her father, we talked about it a lot. I knew all the details of her relationship with her parents, it was something we discussed a lot over the years. It's just not important to get into the reasons for it here. They had had a very long-running series of blow-ups. Her dad doesn't know how to communicate or how to accept responsibility for anything, and my wife tends to overreact to him and alienate him. It was a pattern. It's very sad, because her father has cancer -- not terminal at this point, but it will likely shorten his life. I knew that deep down she was crying out for love from him and he didn't know how to respond. He was too afraid of her anger, so afraid that he just stopped speaking to her.


I'm sorry if I got that wrong. I thought you were implying you weren't sure if the blowup had anything to do with the open marriage suggestion or not.



welldusted said:


> Recently she had a huge blow-up with them and her father stopped speaking to her. That led to some kind of crisis for her and then a few weeks later she proposed the open marriage. That's another reason I don't think it was an idea that came from previous cheating. She changed suddenly after the falling out with her dad.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

> Suggested open marriage





> Before she slept with anyone I called it off and said I wasn't ok with it. However she went and slept with someone anyway, basically throwing it in my face (i.e. she told me where she was going and she told me she slept with him). Shortly after that she agreed to end it, but then a few days later I discovered she was still messaging with the guy.





> Condoms





> sex backseat gloves





> Enough to confront?


Read your first post as not you, but as a stranger who doesn't know your wife.

Divorce. Yesterday.


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## Txquail (Feb 21, 2018)

Get a divorce


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

@welldusted, just checking in to see how you are doing?


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

Taxman said:


> One client at a previous firm found himself in the situation where his wife was having sex with a group of people. He had no interest in the polyamorous lifestyle. He wanted out of the marriage, but her way out of the marriage hurt him to his core. She used emotional blackmail exclusively to control him. As he prepared all of the documents for his exit, he let it slip to half her group of "friends" that she had syphillis, and did not care who she infected, then he told another of her group that it was wonderful how accepting they were of his wife being HIV positive. In short order, there was not one person in her group that would even talk to her, let alone have sex with her. She had nobody except her husband. When he was sure of that, he handed her the divorce papers and left. She found out some time after about the time-bomb he planted in her social life. By that time nobody she knew could be convinced that she was clean.
> 
> I know that she could have come after him legally, and she threatened mightily, but he laughed in her face, and said what are you going to get?


Can I just say @Taxman, you are the Shakespeare of affair revenge stories. :wink2:


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