# Trying to size things up to make a sound decision



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Hi this is my first post, but I have been on mission to resolve some conflicts in my marriage, in the process of my mission, I am hoping to gather a opinion from the insightful folks on this board. 

there is a lot to read below so please forgive me, but I want to ensure I paint the picture as factual as possible.

Marriage Year 7
Total time knowing my spouse 10 years
# of children - 1 (age 5)

The issue - 
My wife is unable to contribute, to the fundamental task that are required to run a household, which ultimately affect quality of life and perspective on the marriage it self.

My wife does not have - A drivers license or workplace Career.
she does have a B.A Degree from a prestigious institution.

in order for our household to survive, I must take on all duties logistical in nature (grocery shopping, clothes shopping, errands of any kind, doctor visits, including all banking)

I am also the sole income wage earner. My wife quit her job to to stay at home with our new born which was agreed upon, until the age of 2. 

Since that time she has not position her self any closer to providing support for me or the household. She stays at home all day with our child, she does cook an wash clothes. she is not the best cleaner of a house but it decent, and I always give her credit for a great job she has done with our little one.

What have I done to encourage her?
Prior to her drivers license expiring 1 year after hour marriage I purchased her a vehicle, which she never drove, and ended giving it to charity a year or two later.
Second I have paid for driving lessons, offered to pay for counseling. Even as recent as the past 6month I have paid for driving lessons and offered counseling.

she admits that there is an issue and she wants to resolve, as well as wants to have a career, but its been all talk and no action

I have also impressed upon her that I am growing tired of carrying a household/marriage on my shoulders. i have pleaded with her for assistance to become a more active player in the marriage and care taking of the house on more than one occasion over the years, to which no aid was delivered. I have had to work 3 jobs once to ensure that we made it out of terrible financial situation, while still running all the errands that are required to sustain a household.

there have been interventions by some folks close to her, they interjected based on what they saw and not based on anything I said. I have kept my sorrow close to heart and have tried to ensure what when we do talk about this issue that i don't go postal and keep a level head, but at the same time, I just carry on like good soldier. but now that I have reached a certain age, and in the process of all this gone back to school and completed an advanced degree. I find myself wondering why am I still here? and at the same time have I done enough to ensure that every opportunity was provided for her to take advantage, before I make that final curtain call.

what I do know is, she has become the object of my anger, to the point where I don't want to go out with her anywhere. i would rather spend time with my child or be alone. 

So thats it, i hope I have vivid picture, I am not looking for silver bullet just another perspective that may help shed light on situation, while I have not made up my mind on divorce I have given myself a 3month deadline to decide. My wife only knows that I am tired and that I am looking for more support than I have received over the years. 

Thank you for your time. 
Hubby_Mike


----------



## cantletgo (Mar 22, 2010)

Just off the cuff here, but have you considered that she may be suffering from depression? 

If there are no other underlying health issues that would cause her to be this disconnected from you and your marriage, then I really don't know what to say. Sounds like you have done more than your fair share, and have been more than patient. 

If it is depression, which I was diagnosed with earlier this year, it could be very difficult for her to admit or acknowledge she has an issue. I know I suffered with this for almost 4 years before it got so bad I couldn't ignore it any more.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Thanks for responding. Yes I have pinpointed depression as well, to which I only know to offer her some kind of counseling. I know she feels bad about it from time to time, because she says to me every so often I know I am a failure, or I am sorry for messing things up. 

To which I reply (in a always calm voice) that okay, but help me help you move forward. she will spat and sputter with ideas on what she wants to do, but never moves past verbalizing them. 

I can't drag anyone to counselor, nor would I want to. my view point is, if you want to go I will fork over what ever cash is needed, but right now its not even on the radar. and its puzzles me to no end.


----------



## DennisNLA (Jan 26, 2010)

I realize your kids are young, but a holistic cure to depression is exercise. Can you suggest having a daily exercise routine with your wife? Get her endorphins running. Plus it can be time together as either a family or with you and your wife.

Since your kids are young, offer to watch the kids when you get home from work and let her exercise be her away from the kids time. With kids that young she could be very overwhelmed just from caring for them.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Thank you for the response DennisNLA. Just to note, I have purchased the exercise balls ( sit on type), video taps, Gym memberships, personal trainers, and I try to find folks (other married women - (since she does not drive) to take her out and enjoy life. On top of that each time I am able to work a miracle and get her out, i give her at least 300$ to spend on anything she wants. 

Believe you me, I am not saying I would not try what you are saying again.. and this is no swipe at stay at home mom's but we only have one child. I love to cook so I cook at least half of the week. I do my best to free up time for her where ever I can when I am not at work. 

Prior to this last year and half, as a family we would go out the eat, go shopping at the mall, even hit a movie.. as well as exercise.. (not as much as we should).. and I have worked all of this in while going to school, working full time, and taking care of all logistical errands. 

I don't want to sound like a complainer, because I am looking to help my wife. I tried to explain to her one day that I want her to able to take care of the family in the event I pass on early (not that I plan too ).. as well as I have explained it in terms of if we do divorce the life skills I am trying to help her with would still be mountain to climb and I would rather help her through them, then for her to have to figure them out on her own...wits end I tell you wits end.. thank you again..


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Two things come to my mind: 

1) You have stated fairly clearly what you want: you want her to get a driver's license to contribute to the household by doing errands and/or get a job. Fairly simple. My question is this: what does she want? Have you ever asked her? Do you consider "what she wants" to be equal to what you want? The reason I ask is that--as an example--you say you got her a car and she never drove it, and that sounds to me like she didn't want a car. Thus if you are looking for advice on how to "make" her do what you want her to do and when...that most likely will not fly around here just because we can not make others do what they don't deep down WANT to do! And it sounds like she WANTS to stay home, raise a child, and be a stay at home mom. Did you negotiate that equally? Are there jobs she could do from home that would contribute financially to the family? Did you consider alternatives? Or was it "this is the most logical option so this is what we are going to do?"

2) If you are tired of driving, I suggest you stop driving. She is a fully-grown, mature adult and if you stop going to the grocery store and doing all the banking, eventually she will run out of food or money. When she comes to you, you just let her know that you told her you were not willing to do it and since she choose to make no move to getting her license, she is responsible to figure out how to meet that obligation. Then just LET IT GO. Don't say anymore, don't blame, don't preach, etc. Allow her to experience the consequence of her choice to not drive. Maybe she'll have to take the bus or walk and try to figure out how to carry groceries home on her own! And pretty soon, she will have the motivation to get her driver's license -OR- she will have figured out a way that works for her and takes the responsibility off your shoulders. Either way, you aren't doing it and she is taking the responsibilities that are hers. :smthumbup:

3) Is it conceivable that you two communicate in entirely different ways? You may want to take this Jung Myers-Briggs Personality Test and encourage your wife to do the same and see if maybe you have differing personalities to the extent that you speak but are not able to "hear" each other or communicate well. The reason I ask this is that as an example, if your wife is an INTP and you are an ESFJ...you would be polar opposites of one another and this could cause communication gaps, and yet just knowing of this difference could help a lot. 

4) This is purely my personal opinion, but if you truly believe this so strongly that you are reaching the conclusion that there needs to be a change in your marriage within 3 months or you're done...then you need to be communicating to your wife much more strongly how urgent this is. Time and again I hear people say to me, "Oh my God my husband just left me! And when I asked him why, he said (insert some reason here) and I had NO IDEA!! He says he tried to talk to me about it and he barely said anything! What do I do?" and they now see that it was life-or-death serious but had no clue what they stood to lose. So I suggest that you arrange for a sitter, take your wife to some private place, and have a heart-to-heart come-to-Jesus meeting with her and say right out loud: "I need you to understand the seriousness of this issue. I believe I have tried to tell you in the past that I need more support for the household and I need you to step up, and you have chosen to not do so. I am telling you now so that I know that you know that if you continue this choice, it will end our marriage and destroy our family. If you choose to continue to not be responsible in the house, then I will eventually leave and I am almost to that point already. If you do not want a divorce--in which case you would have to work and there would be no other adult in the house so you would HAVE to be responsible for yourself and your home--then you would need to ACT and do it immediately. Promises will no longer cut it--only actions will. I need you to understand that I'm dead serious. Now, do you understand? Do you have any questions?"

I don't mean this mean, but she deserves to know that her choices are about to cost her her marriage. She may still continue to choose to be irresponsible (in your opinion) but at least she would do so fully informed. 

In conclusion, I will mention to you that you made a vow to your wife to faithfully love only her for better or for worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, for as long as you both are alive. I will make no bones about saying that I do not personally think it is moral to leave someone and divorce because they are not meeting your standard of responsibility. However *IF* that is where you're at--you're wife does deserve to know the whole truth so that she can make wise, informed decisions of her own.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

thank you for taking the time to share so much on the issue. I will start by answering the obvious questions you posted. Have I asked her what she wanted? Yes man times over, and the answer never was to be a stay at home mom for duration of the marriage. second the only time we talked about her staying home and we made a agreement stay home was for the first 2 years of our child's life.

About buying the car. I bought the care because while in college she did not need one or want, and I asked her if she wanted one to get around time and she said yes.. so I got her one..she said she liked it.. but ultimately took the bus to work and back home
I hear point no longer doing the grocery shopping and banking and all that suff, but then it affects the quality of life I can control. 

On to communication - Communication was our strong suit (was) because of distance factor in our relationship, prior to marriage and after marriage the firs 2 years were fine. She goals of post education right after college but wanted to take a year break. She has always had aspirations of community involvement but never laid down the ground work to really follow her goal. Never the less I know so much about her and not just her likes and dislikes because our communication was rich.. somewhere it fell, and it very well be my fault but I am can't figure out where I dropped it or if I dropped it.

She knows that if she wants to talk I am there, and yes she does say I preach alot, to help I have put my self through communication classes (Crucial conversations / Crucial confrontations / Dale Carnegie courses) in attempts to better make what I am trying to say clearer, and create the environment for effective conversation.

Your idea of just having someone watch the child, and going out and saying all those things I have said before with the emphasis of how important it is for her to step up, is something I will do within 2weeks and I will report back her on the events. 

Regarding the marriage vow (smile) yes, we have been poor and I have pulled us through, we have been sick and i (while sick) have gotten us meds and doctor visits, and I have been faithful, the vow in my opinion goes both ways. she is not inept, is fully capable, and does deserve to know the truth to which I hope I have expressed over the past few years but don't mind explaining it to her again.. 

Thank you I will read your post at least 2 or 3 more times to allow it to soak in. and I did not forget about the personality test. i will see how that goes.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know what I love about me? I said "Two things come to mind" and then gave you a list of four things! :lol: I love me! I'm so funny! 

Okay so we have sort of four basic topics. Let's dive in. 


1) I asked if you had asked her what SHE wants and if you considered alternatives? Or was she kind of told: "...this is the most logical option so this is what we are going to do?" 

You said:


> "Have I asked her what she wanted? Yes man times over, and the answer never was to be a stay at home mom for duration of the marriage. second the only time we talked about her staying home and we made a agreement stay home was for the first 2 years of our child's life."


I would say this is relatively easy. If you are going to sit down with her in the next two weeks and have that heart-to-heart, come-to-Jesus meeting with her, I suggest you consider something like this: "I have asked for you to step up before, and you have agreed to do so and then not followed through. At this time if you want to be a SAHM you are free to do so but they YOU are responsible for grocery shopping, banking, clothing shopping, and errandes. On the other hand if you don't want to do that, then YOU are responsible to provide at least 1/3 of the income of this family. So which of those two do you want? (Let her pick) 

If she wants to be SAHM, then no longer drive even if it does affect your quality of life for a while. Right now she thinks if she ignores it long enough you'll take control of it. If she ignores it for a long time, we can talk about it then..at that time. If she wants to work then sending in one resume a week won't cut it. Tell her that in one month's time you will no longer be paying the X, Y and Z bill and she will be responsible to find a way to pay them or they'll be cut off. If she sits on heiney and doesn't get a job, DO NOT PAY THEM. Both of these issues have to do with HER not taking responsibility that she should...*and you taking responsibility that you shouldn't. * Thus not only does she need to learn that she has to take it, *you have to learn to let it go! * 

*****

2) I said that if you are tired of driving, I suggest you stop driving. Let her know she's responsible for grocery shopping, banking, errands, etc. and it is now HER job to figure out how to get that done. 

You said:


> " ...I bought the car because ...I asked her if she wanted one to get around time and she said yes... but ultimately took the bus to work and back home. I hear (your) point (about) no longer doing the grocery shopping and banking and all that stuff, but then it affects the quality of life I can control."


Ah yes--that's right! And that is what she depends on. Right now she knows for a fact, that if she ignores her responsibilities long enough, eventually you will do them for her, so she has learned that she doesn't HAVE to do her job in the family or the relationship. All she has to do is wait you out, and you'll do them. 

If your daughter needs food, you need to wait for your wife to do her duties (not harming the child but I mean...don't step in if at all possible). If she does not care for her child, then the issue becomes WAY bigger than general laziness and becomes child abuse or neglect. I highly doubt this will occur. I suspect if you ate a BIG lunch (prepare your own lunches and keep them at work if you have to) and just adjust to having a salad or sandwich...preparing one just for you...that it would honestly not be too long before she's on the bus to get groceries or taking a walk to get groceries. 

I have to admit, when I was a young mom, we lived near buses and about 4 blocks from a grocery store. Every day I put baby in the stroller, walked to the store, got the ingredients for the day, and walked hom and enjoyed it quite well! My guess/hope is that if you stopped doing it "for her" she is smart and she'll come up with a way to do it for herself. 

*****

3) I asked if it was conceivable that you two communicate in entirely different ways? You may want to take this Jung Myers-Briggs Personality Test.

You replied that


> you thought communication was your strong suit (was) ... somewhere it fell, and it very well be my fault but I am can't figure out where I dropped it or if I dropped it. You say that she does say you I preach alot, and that to help you have put your self through communication classes in attempts to better make what I am trying to say clearer, and create the environment for effective conversation.


This is truly just a GUESS based on the way you speak and the words you choose, etc. but I suspect you are a Thinker-Judge on the Myers-Briggs test and she may be a Feeler-Perceiver. This means that you could use the exact same verbiage and both comprehend the dictionary definition of the words selected...but that you would not communicate understanding validation to her. Thus you two sort of talk and talk but don't feel understood or validated. The types of communication you indicated are standard, classic communication techniques but if a person feels like they are looked down on, treated like a child, controlled and "preached at" -- it can be hard for the person who has less power to explain that to the person who's acting like they have all the power. 

For example, to her mind there may be SEVERAL ways and times that are appropriate for getting the groceries and doing the banking. She may think of riding the bus, walking, biking, or getting a ride with a friend. But to your mind there is just one "right" way and time to do that grocery shopping and banking: on Saturdays at 3pm. Period. The other methods are "wrong" and the other times are "wrong" because they are not the most logical time to do it most efficiently. Well...maybe she doesn't care about being the most efficient. Maybe she would like to dilly-dally around and take the long way home but she can't quite get you to hear it because you've got one "right" way (your way) and when she uses words you don't have and understanding response. Does that make any sense? 

This is what I meant when I talked about communication. I meant not so much comprehension as perceiving and sympathizing in an understanding way. 

*****

4) Finally I suggested that if you truly believe this so strongly that you are reaching the conclusion that there needs to be a change in your marriage within 3 months or you're done...then you need to be communicating to your wife much more strongly how urgent this is. 

You said:


> "Your idea of just having someone watch the child, and going out and saying all those things I have said before with the emphasis of how important it is for her to step up, is something I will do within 2weeks and I will report back here on the events."


I agree--this is a good plan. 



~~Finally, in conclusion you wrote:


> Regarding the marriage vow (smile) ... the vow in my opinion goes both ways. she is not inept, is fully capable, and does deserve to know the truth to which I hope I have expressed over the past few years but don't mind explaining it to her again."


 I also agree with this. The vow does go both ways, but her dishonoring her vow does not give you a reason to also break the vow. Her bad behavior does not justify you behaving badly because two wrongs don't make a right (they make a left). I personally would say after you've spoken to her yourself, privately, it may be an idea to speak to your religious leader (if you have one) or one of your parents (like her mother or your mother if she's close to your mom) and then you and the minister/parent go talk to her...let her know that she can not continue to shirk her adult responsibilities. Maybe a marriage counselor would be a good idea because my guess is that she would not paint the picture exactly the same way you do (it's funny how that is usually the case!) Thus a marriage counselor could help her to face what she needs to do, and could help you face what you need to do. 

Right now I think you're two main goals need to be: a) Letting go of the things that are her responsibility (see #1 and #2) and if they get turned off or you run out...let them! Yes, minimize discomfort to the baby, but otherwise you're a grown man; you can tough it out a little for the sake of your marriage and wife. b) Taking the Jung Myers-Briggs Personality test and see if that has any bearing here. c) Having the heart-to-heart meeting with your wife. Let's keep focused!


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

and I mean this with all honesty..

Yes sir, thank your sir. I will report back sir!

(Thank you again)


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

At ease, soldier... :lol: :rofl:


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Hey Affaircare - 

I was re-reading your advice/opinion again, and I just wanted to mention a few things, and then ask a question.

As far as speaking with her mother, actually her mother approached me about the situation, as well has her uncle and brother. Each of them with varying opinions of how to help with issue, but ultimately each stated that If she does not ship up, shipping her out would not be seen as a bad action on my part. They honestly expected me to give up about a year ago.

As far as a religious leader, no I don't have one in particular that I prefer over another, but I have spoken to a couple.. one in depth and the other in general, I have also 2 close friends that I have shared this with.. and so far everyone is from family, and non family alike.. agree that I should step out the situation. 

My mother in law in and brother in law are the only ones that have semi-close observation of use as a couple.. but they each raised the issue with me. I don't walk around with sad face, I am always smiling, interact well with others and most time I focus my conversations in a way that we are speaking about the other persons life and not mine.

Okay now to my question - Prior to posting my first post on this site, I came to the conclusion that my wife and I need to separate somehow.. my plan (how ever crude) was to take her to her mothers house and leave her there, (with prior approval from mother_in_law, to which the option was given to me to do that months ago)

just for legal kicks, the place we are living in now is a condo rental, with my name as the only one on the rental.

My question is, after our one on one conversation we are going to have in a few weeks, would entertaining the idea of separation be too much, 

Or should the one on one take place after the separation, in hopes of a greater impact.

I think you are correct in the sense that I am enabling the situation by picking up the slack, and by no means would I attest that my version of the issue is 100% spot on accurate, her version of event will vary. What can't be denied are the responsibility that I take on, to which you have clearly pointed out I should not.

hubby_mike


----------



## lyndapynda (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm reading this and reading this...now I need to jump in. She sounds a bit like she has agoraphophia. I suspect she doesn't need a car...she needs a medical doctor to prescribe her meds. Just my opinion...but if were my husband/wife...that's what I'd do.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

lyndapynda said:


> I'm reading this and reading this...now I need to jump in. She sounds a bit like she has agoraphophia. I suspect she doesn't need a car...she needs a medical doctor to prescribe her meds. Just my opinion...but if were my husband/wife...that's what I'd do.


Hi Lyndapynda, Thank you for chiming in.. I do understand your position of a medical assistance, and no the car is not what I am trying to push as the issue more of a symptom. After doing some research on Agoraphobia, my wife only fits one criteria and thats fear of driving. she loves people and kids, can be the life of party if needed. Loves to interject her strong opinion on subjects.. She is not such a introvert that you would think something such as driving a car, being able to take care of your self and your family would be such a huge issue.

Believe me, I have made the offer to send her to counseling and to go with her if she wants. but I cannot drag someone to something who does not want to go. keep in mind from my original post, she admits that she is not sure why she has not stepped up to the plate and contributed more support to the family, but in the same vein has not requested assistance or should I say further assistance in helping her reach what ever goals she wants. 

Look I don't care if she wants be rock scientist, or a walmart greater.. My issues is do something, be productive and supportive.. She can't help me sitting at home all day even if she is watching the child. I would even be half way satisfied if she tried a home base business.. but she is all talk an no action..

To me its almost as if she quit on me, I have to work twice or three times as hard to reach goals. the least she could do is get up and do the grocery shopping.. alright let me calm down again.. 

Thank you again for chiming in and mentioning the phobia, but I can only help someone who wants to help them-self, and while I may be able to physically drag her into the doctors office or counselors office I cannot make her speak or communicate with honest intent.

Hubby_Mike


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Women grow to hate their man if he starts doing everything, as well as themselves. Women have to feel that they are necessary, and if the man starts picking up all the slack, she starts hating herself more and more and more, until she feels she is totally worthless. Sound familiar?

By all means STOP doing everything.

Have THE TALK.

Tell her how close you are to giving up, if she doesn't change. And tell her that from now on, she WILL be responsible for what she needs to do, you will no longer do it.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Thank you for the response Turnera

Your words sums up responses I have been getting. The hard part is justs stopping. Its would be easier for me to do it of course if we phyiscally separate. But its would be hard for me to do while she is still in the home with my little around. 

For example we have dinner but mommy can't eat. Why? Cause mommy did not help purchase or go get the food. I can't have that converstation with my little one on that. 

If I separte first I know the little one will be in good hans with grandma and grandma will also talk to her daughter on some things. But then I can stop doing things because she is not there. 

Thank u again for your words and opinion. Yes something must be done and yes I will stop doing things very very soon, but I think I am going to have to get her out of house first before I truly stop doing some of the things I have been doing and make a final attemp to talk to her on these issues
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So..you're sending your kids to live somewhere else? 

Why?


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> So..you're sending your kids to live somewhere else?
> 
> Why?


Two reasons, first it seems logical to me she is very attached to the little as mother should be, second I want to minimize the impact to the little as best as possible. The little one finds comfort in my wife and structure in me. During what will be a tough road ahead, my mind said comfort may suit the little one best. 

Please let me know if my thinking is off the rocker
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I have a couple thoughts. 

First, you keep mentioning shipping her off as if you are just tired of her. Is that accurate?

Second, you say you will consider following our advice, but in the same breath talk about shipping her off. Which is it?

I need to know what you are really after, so as to give correct advice. If you just want a divorce and to find an 'easier' wife, you need to be honest with us. If you want the wife back you thought you had, we need to know.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> I have a couple thoughts.
> 
> First, you keep mentioning shipping her off as if you are just tired of her. Is that accurate?
> 
> ...


I am sorry I don't mean to be confusing. Let me try this. 

When I mentiond ship her off I was refering to what others have said I should (others meaning friends and her family if she can't help support me and the family)

What do I want - I want her to contribute and help with some of the responsiblities of life and marriage 

When I mention seperation - its not pre-currsor to divorce in my mind but a way to shake up current condition since nothing else has worked. Including regular converstation

Am I looking for a easier wife - no, if I wanted that I would have split more than 6 years ago. I am still married because I love my wife but what I cannot continue to do is be the sole person that holds up the house in one hand the glue in the other (single folks do that which is what I feel like most of the time). Partnership has many ways of manifesting it self. I am saying I only see this partnership in child rearing everthing thing else is on my back. 

Hope that helps  thank you again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, then, IMO it is time to get professional help and to try a different way of doing things.

I would start by having THAT talk - the one where you say this can NOT continue. At the same time you have to ask her WHY she is not contributing. I guarantee SHE has some issues with the marriage, too. 

You need to HEAR her side before you can change anything, because you have to get her in a position where she CARES about fixing the marriage. Right now she doesn't. Is it medical? Maybe. Cover that later. For now, sit down with her. Share this thread if you want, to make it easier. Tell her SOMETHING has to change and you're there for her if she requires changes from you.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> Ok, then, IMO it is time to get professional help and to try a different way of doing things.
> 
> I would start by having THAT talk - the one where you say this can NOT continue. At the same time you have to ask her WHY she is not contributing. I guarantee SHE has some issues with the marriage, too.
> 
> You need to HEAR her side before you can change anything, because you have to get her in a position where she CARES about fixing the marriage. Right now she doesn't. Is it medical? Maybe. Cover that later. For now, sit down with her. Share this thread if you want, to make it easier. Tell her SOMETHING has to change and you're there for her if she requires changes from you.


Right that's where I am. I guess I am asking have done enough - or what can I do that may have missed. 

So far I have had two really good talks within the past 6months where I stated I am ready to walk out door and what else can I do help her. 

I have offered counseling, and made clear any assistance she wants I will pay for. She starts out by affirming my conerns and agreeing that she has not lived up to her in of bargin, but at the same time there is no action taken to rectify the situation or improve the position she is in. 

In a nut shell how do tell someone u need to get hot coals under your feet and start doing something otherwise its over. 

Becuase me saying that so far, has had a net zero outcome, which is why I was thinking that separation would at least let her know I am serious and set the stage for honest discussion, because I don't think she thinks I am. 

But tell you what, one more conversation never hurt anyone, so I will go forth and have the talk, and see what's comes of it. 

Thank you very much for taking the time to digest and respond
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You talk, but you don't reach agreement on concrete plans. IMO, that is where you are messing up (both of you). She may indeed have an issue, medical or otherwise, that's keeping her from completing things.

Get a posterboard or a big calendar. Sit down together without the kids, and work through a complete week in one sitting. Discuss everything that has to get done. Ask her to pick what she is willing to do. *Write it down.* Use her name beside everything she's to do, each action. You may want to start slowly so it doesn't overwhelm her, just a couple things the first week, then sit down again the next Sunday and add a couple more.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> You talk, but you don't reach agreement on concrete plans. IMO, that is where you are messing up (both of you). She may indeed have an issue, medical or otherwise, that's keeping her from completing things.
> 
> Get a posterboard or a big calendar. Sit down together without the kids, and work through a complete week in one sitting. Discuss everything that has to get done. Ask her to pick what she is willing to do. *Write it down.* Use her name beside everything she's to do, each action. You may want to start slowly so it doesn't overwhelm her, just a couple things the first week, then sit down again the next Sunday and add a couple more.


I have to say getting a big poster board to work through a single week is a good idea.. I do have to say we have come to agreements before and while they may have been on a high level such as obtain drivers license, or schedule physician appointment, no additional guidance was requested. 

So yes I very well may be pooping this up for both us, but that is also why I am hear because what ever I have been doing has not been fruitful to say the least. So tomorrow I will go out michael's and get a isle, some paper, I am not sure if I can get the kid out the way but I will try on such short notice. but I don't think this is something that can wait, my level of tolerance is becoming fragile and while I am not one of those guys that raises my voice and yells and screams, I really feel like doing so.. 

I think its just hard for me to understand how someone could allow themselves to get this point where they can't take on responsibility for there own well being, i mean she wears glasses but won't get her eyes checked once a year.. I asked her please make and appointment. nothing.. i ask her to schedule her physical, nothing, its been 4 years since her last physical and 5 years since her last eye exam.. its not like i am asking her to pay for It I have great insurance and will cover any coast - still she will nod her head say okay, and then poof 4 months has past by -- sorry (me venting again - and yes I have brought this up as well)


thank you again..


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hubby_Mike, 

Just so you know, I am working on a reply but it's been a crazy day (my network card decided to just poof in the middle of the day and stop working!) so I'm playing catch up. I hope to post something shortly. 

~AC


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

okay thank you for the update Affairare


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hubby_mike~

Thank you for your patience while I thought about this and put my thoughts together. Just so you know, I did share your posts with my Dear Hubby, and we both gave consideration to everything because there seem to be several layers going on here at once. Let's get started. 

The first thing I notice is that when you and your wife met, from what I remember you said you two had a long distance relationship; you said you thought your communication was one of your strong suits because you would talk a lot even while far apart (over the internet via email and chat, and over the phone I assume). At that time from what I can ascertain, it seemed to you she was a mature adult, fully involved and participating in life with hopes for an education, plans for involvement in the community, and dreams of a family and family life. From that time to now, you describe her as becoming irresponsible, not involved, not participating in life, and not working toward any of her goals for an education or community involvement or family life. She want from being alive and participating to not really being "in life" anymore. Sooooo...what happened? At some point during the time from your meeting to now, something happened. Was there a trauma or crisis? Did something change? Was there an illness? WHAT changed? See if you can identify if something happened to start or precipitate this change--was it instantaneous or gradual? Okay--got it? Let me know your answer. 

Next, I do happen to notice that YOU are here, but she is not and neither are her relatives. Thus, I am not going to address how to change her or how to change her relatives because THEY are not here. Further, I'm going to consider at least half of what you say "she said" or "they said" as hearsay because they are not here to give their own point of view. YOU are here and I can hear what YOU think and what YOU feel, but talking about what they think or feel (or say) is gossip and I won't go there. So my goal is to look at you and talk to you about what YOU can do and what YOU can change. 

You see, there is absolutely, positively NOTHING you can do to change your wife. Not One Thing. If she is going to change, it 100% has to be welling up from a desire within herself to change. Very often people come on a site like this basically wanting to know "How do I get my spouse to do what I want?" There's a long, tragic story of neglect and possibly some fancier words...but that's the gist of what they want: "How do I make my spouse do what I want?" Well, here's the answer: YOU CAN'T. The only person you can change is you, and for you to change it has to well up from a desire within yourself to want to change. 

So from what I can see, right now you are trying to control your wife and "make" her do the chores you've designated to a stay at home mom: driving errands, grocery shopping and banking. I asked what she wanted, and you sort of indicated she agreed with you that she needs to "participate more" in the family upkeep, but at no time did I hear exactly what it is that she WANTS to do. (As an example, I personally hate doing dishes and would GLADLY trade dishes for mowing. I love doing ironing and would gladly iron in exchange for trash. I WANT to do mowing and ironing--I don't want to do dishes or trash.) So rather than TELLING her what she should and should not be doing as if you are her father, what does your adult wife enthusiastically want to do? 

Once we've determined that, let's assume she agreed with you about the errands and groceries and banking. She is a fully-grown, adult woman and does not need you to do it for her or tell her when or how to do it. If you don't do it for her, she is completely capable of figuring out for herself a way to accomplish the tasks she has agreed to do. BUT when I suggested to you if you don't want to drive that you stop driving, you replied with a "Yeah...But...." That is the classic way to say "I hear the advise but I refuse to make that change" and your reason was because it would affect your quality of life. It is my personal opinion that when a man is a truly loving leader in his marriage that sometimes he will be willing to endure a short time of "discomfort" for the long-term good of his spouse and marriage. Thus, I don't buy it. You are the man in this family, and for your wife's own good the issue has arisen that you need to stop controlling her and endure change. I believe the real issue here is that you don't want to stop controlling her! So I challenge you, "man-to-man" so to speak, to examine yourself again and see if you've been treating your wife as an adult equal or a child. 

Specifically, I challenge you to endure a lower quality of life for a short time so that your wife has the opportunity to be a better person. You need to take your hands off the reins, let her take the reins in a few places, and let her even make her own attempt and utterly fail in safety! The change that YOU need to make is that rather than just "shipping her off" and giving up on your vow, you need to honor the woman to whom you made a covenant and work on allowing her to control the things/tasks for which she agrees to be responsible. One of the huge issues I see is that you want things done the way you want, when you want, to your quality of life ... or you'll ship her out. That's basically a threat, and your wife is not stupid. So rather than change her, let's do a complete 180 and change YOU. Are YOU willing to let go, let HER decide what she wants to do and how she wants to do it? Are YOU willing to learn how to treat her as your equal? Maybe take a look at this page on Dr. Irene's website: The Controlling Caregiver and see if you recognize any of that person in you. And if you do, please don't be mad at us or at your wife--just hey, you're a human and we all do weird things. Learn from it, change, and do better! 

Finally, regarding your mother-in-law and her relatives telling you to "ship her off" and saying they wouldn't be surprised if you separated....well this is just me but do you love this woman or not? If not, shipping her off will confirm that for her and probably kill any love she may have for you. But if you do--and honestly I think you do A LOT--then I would forget this idea about separating. I don't see how any good could come of it because she'd be going from a husband (who does everything for her) to her mother's (who does everything for her). No, I would say that the idea about "shipping her off" is just a way to make your life easier so you can skip out on your responsibilities. The absolutely only way I would even consider this as an option is if you insist on keeping your Little One with you. Here's why. YOU are not released from your responsibility as her father just because your wife "checks out" and being Little One's father is so much more than just being $$ child support--so no dice. In order I would recommend: 

1) BEST OPTION: You work on YOU and not on "making your wife do what you want." Specifically, you endure some lower quality of life for a while to let her take the reins on those tasks, and you work on becoming a less controlling spouse. 

2) LESS ACCEPTABLE SECOND OPTION: If she just will not cooperate, the wife is committed or needs to find another place to stay--YOU DO NOT FIND IT FOR HER--and the Little One stays with you. Your wife needs to realize that there are natural consequences to checking out of the marriage and one is losing time with Little One. You stay put and stand for your family, including Little One.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Thank you again - I will start off with, I have no anger towards you or my wife in regards to controlling caregiver premise. 

I came here with the intention to find out how to help my wife, me and the marriage. If that means I need to change something so beat it. And if it subsequently means a hit to quality of life so be it. 

Now to your question on traumatic experence. If anything they happened prior to marriage and her finishing school. There where some close deaths in the family. But out of those deaths were conversations to honor them by working to give back to the community as they did. 

Post marriage I had a close death in the family but that's all. 

Regarding "shipping her off" yes based on your reasoning it would be a bad idea, and yes being a father is more than dollar signs. Which is another reason why I am here. So from your advice which makes mounds of sense to me I will not ship her off, but if I do ask her to leave the little one will stay with me. 

Regarding the contolling issue. While I do se areas in life where I do contol the ruter in this marriage. When it comes to what she wants to do and how she does it, I swear Afficare, I don't care, just do something. She could wipe the walls with her shirt if wanted to, don't care. Stand on the corner and sale lemonaid, have a day care company, review resumes, shine shoes. I don't care what's erks me is that when we talk about things she wants to do, I say cool put a plan together tell me the dollars and cents you need and let's get it started. She says okay then nothing. I don't push I don't prod, I am leaving it at her own pace. But there comes a time when u say what are you doing. 

For example you and your wife (its not perfect nor should it be) but if u are stranded on the side of road, or u need to get to the hospital you have support. I have none and that bothers me that I am married, but every day I leave the house, I prepare my self as if I was single, to enusre that if I run into trouble I can take care of it myself.

Now even if she decides she does not want a career, in my mind that's does not obsolve her from being supportive of the family needs. Once again she could make zero dollars and zero cents and I would be fine if she was able to do those errands that I do. I know u mentiond u would trade dishes for lawn duty and I understand, but what can we trade, cause I do the lawn and help with dishes , cooking and I cleaning, washing clothes and etc. All this while still bringing home the bacon and going to school. 

May be I am asking to much, maybe I am asking someone who I thought was capable and turned out is not. If I could get her into counseling I might be able to figure this out. Beacuse I don't mind change I embrace it, if I find a fault in me or a awkward hitch in my step I make an effort to change even if the failure rate is high.

Okay back on point - regarding viewing my wife or treating her as equal. That's hard from my point of view. I give her all the space she wants, but in my mind I don't see a partner I see road block. Beacuse as a family we could be in better position financially and quality of time wise, if I did not have to bust my butt so much. I am proud of the fact that I can provide and she stay home, but some addition support would be nice. 

I hope I answered your questions I am happy I wated to have the talk with her till I read this. 

I am going to look at that website. 
I am going to try and setup some easy win projects for her to build some confidence. 
I am going to research my controlling caregiving nature and find a happy medium. 
I am going to try convenice her to go to counseling. 

And I am going to allow her to fail in safety which I think is a very very profound statement

And I am going to ask u for more guidence along the way  

Thank you
And I typed all this on my mobile phone. Phewww
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IMO, it's because you give her so much space and expect so little back, that she doesn't.

You deserve as much as she is getting from you. Expect it. Unless you are just willing to put up with this nonsense for the rest of your life, you're going to have to put your foot down some time.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> IMO, it's because you give her so much space and expect so little back, that she doesn't.
> 
> You deserve as much as she is getting from you. Expect it. Unless you are just willing to put up with this nonsense for the rest of your life, you're going to have to put your foot down some time.


Thank your for your opinion turnera. 

In one fashion or another I have attempted what u sugessted. What I did not do was demand the expectaion and set consequences for not meeting them. Beacuse yes she does expect things out me such as roof, food, clothes, active role in parenting and helping her family. 

I think i will need to (no pun intended) marry both opinions from you and affaircare becuase both resonate with me. I don't want to come across as brute with no heart ( do as I say or else). But at the same time other efforts have failed. And it sucks that I might have to tap into my A-hole side a bit to be taken seriously(if all else fails). But as u said sometimes you have to put your foot down. 

I will keep u posted 

Thank you again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I like to think of it more as what's fair.

She wouldn't like it if SHE was doing 90% of the housework, taking care of YOU all day, and then whenever she asked you to do something you said 'ok' but never followed through.

Oh wait, that's MY life!


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> I like to think of it more as what's fair.
> 
> She wouldn't like it if SHE was doing 90% of the housework, taking care of YOU all day, and then whenever she asked you to do something you said 'ok' but never followed through.
> 
> Oh wait, that's MY life!



well understood.. and simply put :iagree:


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Ohhhhkay here is the update as promised.. It took me a bit longer to have the talk cause I really wanted to think about what I was going to say, how I was going to say, and how I was going to react to the tear that surely were going to be put on display.

So my talk started off as structured I focused on expectations, the ones she has of me and ones I have of her. 

From there I moved to current thought pattern of fight or flight, how running out would be easy on my part but also irresponsible as well. 

Then I focused on required deliverable's. What she needs to have accomplished in order to support the family outside the home as well.

Now taking a pause she agreed and confirmed that she has been stagnant and has been trying to figure out what and how to get things started. Once again I mentioned life counselor or general counselor to which she said yes I do need one...now I did regress and bring up how I offered before, but she did not have any answer to that one.

so after all the tears (me standing firm) I reaffirmed that time left on the clock is not in years, and if me and little on have to progress alone without her.. I am more than willing to make that tough choice (more tears) 

Now on to remedy.. well there isn't one- this was the talk to lay out on the table current condition, required commitments and subsequently improving life for both parties. What I offered was an olive branch, and what I mean by that is.. I told her that I would allow her to fail by placing all responsibility of securing a counselor if needed. pay for babysitter to go take care of business if needed.. etc in her hands.. by giving her x number of dollars (2k to be exact).. so I am placing a 2k bet that she will resolve the issues she faces.

Now does this mean I am stepping away after this 2k bet. No. I told her that if she wants to talk I am here, if she needs advice I am here, but I explained that I may be biased in my opinion and that she should seek counseling to ensure all perspective are revealed, and out of that 2k she has to start paying some her bills that I have been covering.. not huge amounts less than 180 a month, the big bills i will still cover.

So I was not total wuss, she did not argue or disapprove of my positions during the converstation. The tone was soft and mellow yet my eyes were square looking at her's.. so we shall see. I will provide updates cause as I said the time clock is not years..

Thanks again for opinions expressed on my issue - if things work out great, if not I have no regrets and that's what I wanted to make sure I did not have.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you really want to have a clear conscience in the event that this ends badly - you need to take two additional steps:

- Define an objective, measurable plan with specific milestones AND
- Email it to her - require that she read it and agree to it

Now the agreement part is critical because it should read something like this. 

If I do not meet the minimal goals in this plan (some ideas below), than I will accept that I have made the choice not to commit to our marriage and will accordingly move out without fuss/argument. 

A good plan has a one month milestone - and maybe a 3 month milestone. Each should have some goals that, if not met, show she truly does not respect you or your marriage. 

This truly sounds like a case of an immature partner who is trying to skate by doing as little as possible. 









hubby_Mike said:


> Ohhhhkay here is the update as promised.. It took me a bit longer to have the talk cause I really wanted to think about what I was going to say, how I was going to say, and how I was going to react to the tear that surely were going to be put on display.
> 
> So my talk started off as structured I focused on expectations, the ones she has of me and ones I have of her.
> 
> ...


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree with MEM. You STILL did not get a tangible agreement from her.


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

turnera said:


> I agree with MEM. You STILL did not get a tangible agreement from her.


I agree with MEM and you too.. but keep in mind. as some who role is project manager at work, and has taken many classes in project management, there is this thing called scope creep  and stakeholders. 

I am a stakeholder - my project is my wife.. the scope (IS LARGE) :rofl:

but yes, placing milestones target dates are great.. and please forgive me.. I did not place exact verbiage in my post. but yes we did talk about critical paths, yes I did give hard dates for two key issues..Months (less than 3)

what I don't want to do as project manager is make my resource (wife) feel like I am not only managing the project but also micro managing her parts as well.. Thats the problem now!!!.. have set dates yes  is she verbally aware of them  yes.. 

Now would be good to send dates through email yes- -- but once again ( been there done that)... There are other ways I think I can help keep focus..Giving her a line of credit.. (olive branch) is one.. Telling her that I have no issue taking the little one and walking off into the sunset is two.. the third is my ongoing daily interaction.. Keep in mind.. its not like we are fighting. cause we don't, we don't yell, we don't cuss.. but what I have not done well is kept the issue front in center.. I have let other things occupy my attention, and then when I turn around the project I left for a brief moment has stopped in its tracks.. 

So as good project manager should do.. (reminders / offers for support if needed on task items) I need to remind her, more often that she/we have work to do.. or else stakeholder is pulling this project...prior I would make my case get some okays on the issue and then check back 6-10 months later.. now its going to be weekly if not every other week.. 

plus other items like cable, random gifts.. and other extra things I do, will stop cold, if I don't see the project metrics in positive numbers.. 

Hope that helps explain..


----------



## hubby_Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Hi everyone - i wanted give an update.. I know some just take advice and never return, I wanted to be different and give some solid info on what has taken place..

Okay so last we left off, I had yet another talk with my wife on expectations and such.. I explained what I felt needs to be accomplished prior to certain dates, otherwise me and the child were heading off into the sunset. 

I gave her a large stipend to aid her in her goals.
There were three action items that pertained to her health and well being that needed to be completed, that I had been begging her to do.. 

She completed 2 of the 3.. the third is pending
1 of the 2 was seeking psychiatric help.. which she did and they put her on a anti-depression prescription.. and will visit once every 2 to 3 weeks.

And she obtained her drivers permit.. and will be starting divers training in week or so..

the next set of goals she really cannot accomplish till she gets her head clear, which is what direction in life she wants to go (career choices)

Now in between this time, which has been almost a month and half.. or so.. I have done some things .. 

1st Purchased a white board.. and placed in smack dab in the center wall of our bedroom.. this white board has all of the goals and stated due dates for goals.. and room for her to post questions if she feels the need.

Now for the backlash -- yes there was and is backlash.. ever since I got on her to go see the therapist or make the appointment I should say.. she has had this mono tone with me, to which does not bother me so much, but I am not sure why other than resentment. if we go out somewhere she acts all happy.. but then we get back home its mono tone. I kinda want to tell her to shape up her attitude but I'd rather let the therapist tell her that.... at least I hope that's whats he tells her.. 

Either way in addition to my efforts. two family member one parental and one sibling, have each made their final efforts to get her to seek help or talk to them about the issues in our home as well. Their efforts were refuted and toss back.. thus my wife still walks alone in what ever mental state she is in..

So far like I said she is sticking to the dates, because I made it clear when they were written on the white board.. if she commits to these dates (which she did) and does not hit them.. this charade is over. I refuse to go into 2011 with this situation this way. 

So there it is.. still a work in progress but I have had more progress in the last 6 weeks then any other time.. While the wife and I may not be on the best verbal terms because of it, I still feel it was the best choice to rock the boat and continue rocking the boat until I got a positive response (positive as in things get done).

Holding my ground -

hubby_Mike


----------

