# Coping Corner with Tanelorn and Affaircare



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know, Tanelorn and I try to set the example and be a lighthouse for folks in some pretty dark and stormy days. We try to keep up here in the "Coping with Infidelity" forum and do our best to comment where we think we might do some good, but it dawned on me last night that folks here might have a question for us directly ('cuz inquiring minds DO want to know ), may have a question you want to ask about your situation and we haven't spotted you yet, or may want to just ask if we'd read your thread and comment! 

So I thought I'd start this thread so if you'll want us, we are in one easy, consolidated place. I also thought this would be a good place to put some of the stuff we type out over and over (like to reference the 7 steps about how to end an affair). That way, again, it's all in one easy place. 

Sooooo...let the games begin! Who's gonna be first?


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## Bellz (Jun 8, 2010)

Hi, I have read your website on the 7 steps on how to end an affair. My husband is having emotional affair, more like outside girlfriend at this stage, no sex yet. I have reached step 5 - carrot and stick. However when I request that he stop contacting the girl, he refused. He said that if in anyway I disturb the girl to break up with him, then he will leave me. He has resentment for things that I have done in the past. Even when I tried to change, he said I was just acting out. He said he will give me time to see if I sincerely change but will keep on contacting the girl in the meantime. It's hard to have "Love Kinders" when he openly reject any advances from me. The only good thing is we still live together and he try to act normal in front of family. Both our parents know about it. His mom say he is just flirty, nothing serious to it but I know better from the treatment that he gave me and the other girl. The worst thing is I cannot stop him from calling or texting the girl. He's texting openly now that I know about it and even during lying next to me at sleeping time. I feel very uncomfortable and angry and sad at the same time. Most of the time, I cannot even have my sleep, thinking about this thing the whole night. In the end, it affect my health and mood at work. 

What can I do except keep silent about it and try to love him back. How can I live with this abuse? He said he will feel it if I do love him and treat him nice. He said it will take time, maybe few months but not right away. But how can I be sure? He's still contacting the girl.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi Bellz~ 

You're the first one to write to us on our coping corner, so it's nice to meet you. First, I don't know that much about your situation but I will let you know that as long as he's in contact with the OW, the marriage can not survive. Thus there are two big steps that need to be done. #1 Step = End The Affair and #2 Step = Rebuild a New Marriage (after the A is over). So the first thing we'll have to work on is ending the affair, okay? 

Now, I can tell you right now that there is a person who looks a lot like your hubby in your home right now, sleeping next to you...but it's not the hubby you know and love. It's his Evil Twin, the Disloyal Spouse. He is addicted to the little rush and zing and butterflies and excitement that the affair gives him, and he will do and say ANYTHING to keep that addiction. When the Disloyal Evil Twin is yelling and saying those horrible, hurtful things, please don't see your hubby--see someone who is like a drug addict and you are trying to cut off his supply and take away his drug. How do drug addicts act when you take away their drug and make them go cold turkey? Happy? Thankful? HECK NO--they scream, yell, holler, blame, give guilt, make threats....*ANYTHING* to get that drug back!!! And he will too. 

So we are going to go into battle against the affair. It will be hard, and you'll be afraid, and it will feel like you're doing the wrong thing (it's against your instinct). Just try to read as much as you can, try to learn as much as you can, and let's go through it together..okay?

So before we can really get going, I'm going to ask you about the first couple of steps. You say you're up to the "Carrot & Stick" step, so let's review. Please tell me what you did for Step 1: Gather Evidence. What evidence do you have that proves to you it is an affair and not just co-workers at work? How did you get the evidence? Do you still have access to that way of gathering evidence?

For Step 2: Confront--did you talk to him directly and ask him point blank to stop the affair? Tell me about the time when you talked to him and told him you KNEW he was being unfaithful. What did he say? For Step 3: Disclose--who did you disclose to? Who is the one person he thinks highly of who is pro-marriage who you told about the affair? Who did you show the evidence to so you could prove it wasn't just in your mind? How did this step go? Finally--tell me about Step 4: Exposure. Who did you expose to and how? What did you say? How did they respond? 

I ask all these questions to get a clearer picture of what's going on and to find out where we might want to start and how to begin the attack against the affair. And Bellz, I can't guarantee you we can save your marriage--we'll try! But we'll be right there with ya helping all the way okay?

Look forward to your reply!


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## Bellz (Jun 8, 2010)

Step 1:gather evidence
The evidence have been in front of me for a long time. It is I who is blind to it because I trust him so much. First time I caught him on the phone was a few months back. He was talking softly to the girl more or less the same way he talked to me when we first started dating. All about having sex and sharing everything together. I was beside him but did not disturb the conversation. He ended the conversation and saying that he'll call back again. He told me that the girl was his co-worker and having relationship problem so turn to him for advice and he was just trying to help by explaining to her what we have gone through in the past. 

The second time I caught him on the phone was again on the same topic but he is more insistant about what he is requesting from the girl. I asked him what happened. He said nothing happened. He said it's not about the other person, it's about us. How I have treated him badly and he is unhappy with me. I was sad and was scolded off to think for myself what I have done wrong. 

The third time, its the same thing again. He's blaming all this on me. On why he cannot be happy with me but he can be happy with other people. "Go and think for yourself why this has happened. You deserve it. Even if you are crying now also nobody is going to pity you."

Step 2:Confront
One night, I decided to check his phone while he was asleep. He deleted all messages in the inbox but kept a few in important folder. In it I found a few sms from the girl that is talking about relationship and sex and calling each other hubby and wifey. I cannot contain myself and burst out on him in the middle of the night while he is asleep. Later on he sleep in the living room. While he is in a blur and suddenly awake, he was angry and say yes, the girl is his wifey, so what? You happy now? Now my mom also know we're fighting. She will sure ask what's going on. His mom just sleep in the next room. I know it was his anger talking. That night I was in shock and can't sleep the whole night. 

Step 3;Disclose
The next morning I call my mom and told her my husband has a woman outside. I did not elaborate on the details. My mom later called her mom and talked about it. Both our parents are pro-marriage. When his mom asked him about it, he say the girl is just a co-worker and a friend. They're great friend talking together. 

Step 4: Exposure
We were on bad terms ever since (cold war). Few days later he went outstation to work. The line is very bad there. During the next weekend, his father passed away. Everybody is trying to reach him but unable to. I tried to call his colleague but I don't know their contact at all. In the end, I search online and found a contact for his manager and call him. He also did not reply until the next day. I told his manager that I am his wife. his father passed away and his mother ordered him back for the ceremony. He need to come back on that day itself. Please arrange for it. When he know about this he send me a sms while driving. He said he was really dissapointed with me. Why I have to tell the whole office that his father passed away. Now the whole office want to come to pay respect. I did not know what he tell the office co-workers, in the end, nobody come to pay respect. In his previous company, he declare himself single and not married because he say employer prefer people with less commitment and can do OT. 

Until today I did not know what he tell the office people or how they reacted to that. He has left the company and now in the new company. His leaving has nothing to do with this case and has tendered his resignation earlier on. In this new company also I believe he still declare himself single. I do not know what to do with it. We do not wear wedding ring. It is I who request earlier on because I sweat alot and it causes itching on the place where the ring is. I really regret that. 

Ever since then, he openly communicated with the girl. I have found pictures of him and the girl going on trips together. Some of it are trip with coworker and some with the girl's family (parents). It really hurt me to see them hugging together. It was in house network shared folder so I saw it although usually I don't go and check through his things.


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## Bellz (Jun 8, 2010)

My discussion with mother in law about his affair:
She said that he is flirty in nature and have a sweet mouth. No matter its old or young he still flirt. That I have known for a long time. Usually it's just flirt for fun, not serious. That kind of thing I don't really mind much. But this is bad. S
She said my husband assure her that there is nothing to it, by that he is meaning that they never physically have sex. She also said I should cool it off. I have done things that made him angry so it will take time for him to cool down. Anyway she is not agreeing to us divorce and does not agree with him together with the girl. She did not openly ask him to end the relationship. She said this things are temporary and will end by itself. I cannot just sit there and wait for god knows how long it will take for it to end and suffer continuously until then. 

I really want to work it out but I do not know how long more I can stand. He also say that whatever I'm trying to do now to impress him is just temporary. I won't be able to last long. In the end we still will be separated. That's why he reject all my advances because he believe that I won't be able to really change myself.


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## missv (Apr 1, 2010)

Tanelorn and Affaircare- You have NO idea how happy I am you have done this!!!! For a couple of months I've prayed there would be a way to talk to the two of you. My H takes real good care of himself, works out, etc. Just before we got married, I started gaining weight, for no real good reason. He told me before we married how he felt if someone took good care of themselves, it meant they thought enough to take good care of everything else important to them. So obviously he was not happy with my weight gain. In all honesty, neither was I but I didn't do much about it. It took it's toll and we started having real problems. Several times he slept on the couch for months on end and told me things were at the point of breakup. I repeatedly did the token lose weight just until things got better then would go back to old behavior. Ultimately gained 80 lbs. So I really do understand his not believing me this time.
About 2 months ago I found an email to an old friend on his laptop he was in the process of writing (he fell asleep with it open & I went to shut it). He'd been sleeping on the couch for approx 2 months-he said because of my snoring. Dtr verifies I snored. Started off "hi baby...I'd do anything to be able to bring you back to (our state)....as far as your severance pay...". I closed it, the next day he asks what's wrong so I told him about seeing the email. His response: you knew things haven't been good between us for years. I'm sleeping on the couch, sex hasn't been good, nothing happened, nothing was going to happen, no one would wait 2 years for me (has said if we ever split he wanted to wait until dtr finished college), he needed someone to listen to him, he loves me, we've been through so much together, and said he ended it. Since that time I've gone through his phone & found partial emails to her, usually just a word or two in the drafts. Haven't told him I know that. I also know who she is--I was going to friend him on facebook last year and saw her pic. Looked it up, know where she lives (about 12 hrs away).
Since all this I've lost 20 lbs (stress is a GREAT weight reducer) and have been really taking care of myself. He's been acting differently too. Has always told me "I love you" when leaving the house or hanging up the phone, and kissed me hello/goodbye, but now gives a little hug, kiss on the neck, is almost sort of flirty. I try to flirt back and have the outlook that if we were just getting started and I was real interested I would do everything I could to entice him. But it's hard. My friends say I should leave the phone alone, concentrate more on making a better me, and that if things are meant to work out, they will.
Bellz, I know you too can find help here. I'm sorry for what you are going through....you're not alone, that's for sure!!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Hi Missy - 

What is your opinion about your marriage right now? Does it seem to be improving? It sounds to me like your husband does appreciate it when you take care of yourself, stay in shape, etc. 

Regarding the affair: does it seem as if it is still ongoing? If so, there is little that can be done for your marriage until the affair ends. Until it does, your husband will not be fully committed to you, and any work on the marriage will always stop at the point where the things the affair provides overrule the things the marriage does.

Bellz - will be posting more on your main thread...


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## nappilymarried (Jun 25, 2008)

Hi Tanelornpete and Affaircare. How are you guys doing? Just wanted to thank you both for what you do. Im doing well. Just wanted you guys to know you are appreciated.


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## picket fences (Mar 22, 2010)

Hello there! Great idea to do this. Affaircare - you've given me balanced, thoughtful feedback in the past. I wrote a thread called "Is there such thing as getting over it *too* fast" several days ago - I was hoping you'd have a gander and weigh in - I won't reproduce it here, but I'd love your opinion there!

p.s. - update since thread was written - seems like H and I are both getting over the EA near-impossibly fast; however, that doesn't mean the reasons he wandered to begin with are getting addressed - insight I learned last night - but he is trying, so I can't even be hard on him, the jerk!


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

My friend, S., thinks you guys are great (Like I do.) You give so much. Just a note. S. "believes" he has a healthy marriage. NO reason to doubt that. While trying to help me through my difficult time he has read a lot of Harley over the last two weeks. And he is using that advise and yours to make his marriage better. Thanks.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok I have always valued your advice on this forum so I would like to ask something regarding my situation. I would like to know if subconsciously I have become codependent on my husband and maybe that has eventually led to his affair and now the divorce. Since my husband is not talking either about the affair or the real reasons behind our divorce I have been doing some self analysis on my own.

For the past 9 years, I have loved my husband unconditionally, always trusted him, never really had any arguments. I was very understanding of his grueling travel schedule, his work committments, took care of the house we lived in Canada(even though he really bought it before he met me), I have been a good mother in a different country with no family/friends help, I neglected some of my friendships, I basically put his needs/wants before mine many times.

And then the child came in and responsibilities changed. Of course for those of you have been mothers you probably remember how hectic your first year of motherhood was. I tried to be the superwoman to do everything by myself not only as a mother but also before we had the child. I never bothered him with details, if I could do it something myself I did it. I thought he appreciated all that.

For example he was almost jelous if I wanted to go out with some of my single friends for a dinner. I would usually do that when he was on a trip. He almost never went out on his own with any of his friends.

We loved to travel and we did a lot of travelling. Between his airmiles and my hotel discounts we visited many places. He always agreed to my travel choices, never objected paying for it.

He is a very stubborn person by character but somehow he always got his way. He made way more money than I did so financially he had the upper hand on the $$$.

I gave up my real estate career just before our move so he can have success in his. He did agree to continue to pay my real estate fees associated with me keeping the license since our move to CT was supposed to be short term only. I was basically ready to go to the end of the world to be with him

I must say we do like the same things in life in most cases we did agree on many things. People now tell me that I was way to nice to him, in other words I should have been more of a b****

We both like sports. But I like skiing a lot. He skis but not too crazy about the sport. So we went to couple of ski trip but I can't say I got lots of chances to practice that sport but I found other sports we liked to watch/play so I never made a big deal about it.

Do you think my attitude like this would have contributed to him having the affair? I am sure issues like this could have been addressed in a different manner(like talking about it) rather than the ultimate betrayal. I am not saying I am perfect but neither was he. 
I am just trying to throw some thought out there to find some explanation for all this. I am trying to be as honest with myself as possible.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I have to ask: what attitude? I didn't get a firm grasp of what you are trying to say....


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare you have been so much help I am glad you have this section  

I have to ask about telling people about the affair? What about if it is a AF? I have considered contacting my H's job where they boy work his boss and also the corporate office but I don't know how to really handle it. What has really stopped me from doing this is that he is my ONLY support and if I do this he will cut of the child support and I will have no way to support my kids or even live  I have considered waiting till I get a job and then doing it. My problem is that I only know for a fact it was a AF and she told me via text message that she only saw him as a friend and would NEVER do that too someone who is married. He moved out so I guess she might think different now. 

I guess what I am scared of is if it is just one sided and only him and only an AF it could cause a lot of problems for her and her job. Which I worry about doing to anyone. I almost can't involve in without her. 

Any advice?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Was I being too nice and paying too much attention to my husband and neglecting my needs and wants in the name of love? Was I making more compromises than he was? The way I understand, in a marriage you have to make compromises you can't have it always your way.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Are you asking if taking care of someone else's needs makes them have an affair? Most affairs happen because it appears that the Other Person is able to give things that the spouse cannot (will not.) So I doubt that your being willing to do things with your husband contributed to his affairs. Its possible that you were willing to overlook the signs of trouble, which enables the affair to be carried on a lot longer - but that is not the cause of the affair.

Without your husband actually filling you in, you can only guess at things - which is why, in your case, it may be more fruitful to be studying yourself, and the kind of person you really are, rather than trying to get that answer - it may come when you least expect it...


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## land2634 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi,

I've opened a thread here and was hoping to get some insight.

I've read up on some other threads and was hoping to see what I need to do next. A lot of hurt has gone on recently, and I'm ready for it to end.

Thanks in advance!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

missv said:


> Tanelorn and Affaircare- You have NO idea how happy I am you have done this!!!! For a couple of months I've prayed there would be a way to talk to the two of you. My H takes real good care of himself, works out, etc. Just before we got married, I started gaining weight, for no real good reason. He told me before we married how he felt if someone took good care of themselves, it meant they thought enough to take good care of everything else important to them. So obviously he was not happy with my weight gain. In all honesty, neither was I but I didn't do much about it. It took it's toll and we started having real problems. Several times he slept on the couch for months on end and told me things were at the point of breakup. I repeatedly did the token lose weight just until things got better then would go back to old behavior. Ultimately gained 80 lbs. So I really do understand his not believing me this time


Hey missy~

I've read your post and read some of your other posts on the site too, and I think I see what's going on. 

Just to get the hang of some of my terminology, please take a peek at this article to get some of "the basics": Basic Concepts

Briefly, the love in your marriage is like a campfire. There are actions that people do to stoke the fire of love and make it hotter--those are Love Kindlers. Much as adding fuel to a fire keeps it burning, makes it brighter and warmer, so concentrating on Kindlers, making them part of your daily interaction, builds the fire of your marriage. There are actions that people do that are like putting water on a fire--some are like dribbles out of a holey bucket, and some are like dumping a big bucket of water on the fire. Smothering a fire will eventually put it out. Actions that kill the fires of your love are Love Extinguishers.

In your instance, your hubby told you before you two married that one Love Kindler that really was important to him was Physical Commitment--and in particular the commitment to physical attractiveness. Now some women get sort of upset with men who have this need because they throw out the "You should love me no matter what my weight is and love the 'me' inside not just my exterior." Just to try to put this into perspective, the Love Kindler for physical attractiveness is very similar to when women feels a Love Kindler for a husband who is Financially Committed. He could very well argue "You should love me if I'm laid off or have a $100K/year salary--love the 'me' inside not just my wallet." My point here is that a kindler just IS the thing that a person needs to really get that blaze going and keep it going long term. 

In the area of Physical Attractiveness, some of that Love Kindler has to do with staying in shape and not gaining weight...and some of it has to do with having a confident body image and working with what you have now to be appealing to the eye. Let's be honest. Some men are in a profession where having an attractive wife who can throw a good dinner party for the boss and other VIP's will advance his career and enhance their social life! So part of HIS job is the financial stability and part of HER job is to maintain herself attractively! We are not all "Twiggy" nor do we all have the ability to have personal trainers and personal chefs like some of the celebrities...but we can ALL do our parts to not "let it slide" and work on our beauty (internally and externally). 

Since your hubby as literally spelled out for you that one of his biggest Love Kindlers is physical attractiveness, I do suggest you make trips to the gym a regular habit--probably daily for 30 minutes is best if you can. But in addition to that, take care of yourself physically. Make sure your hair is cut and colored in a way that compliments you where you are now. You would be AMAZED how much difference it can make to go to a salon, get your hair colored professionally and then cut in style that works with your current face shape. Seriously it's worth the little extra $$ and the difference can be shocking (in a good way). Take the time for manicures/pedicures and if you can not afford them, then get together with a girlfriend and "do each other's nails". Next, get clothing that fits you correctly and attractively NOW where you are. In my other job as a personal shopper, I have to help customers all the time to find clothing that is the correct size (not "well I'll buy size 4 because I'm hoping to lose weight") and that compliments their body type. Personally, I am short, curvy, fuller-figured, and for me to buy a dress with a ruffle at my hip is just silly! It completely stops the eye at the middle and makes me look even shorter and makes my hips look even bigger! Buying a big A-line skirt is also silly because I already naturally curve out enough--don't need extra! :rofl: But a sweetheart neckline compliments my better points, all one color top to bottom makes one long-lean-look, and a somewhat form-following dress with some gather or pleat at the waist will camouflage the tummy making me look FABULOUS! So get your correct size even if the number seems big (hey--in Europe their sizing is like 40 and 50!) and get clothes that are attractive NOW. Finally, consider some undergarments and lingerie that again work with and enhance what you have now. At every weight a woman has some features that are...attractive. So get some lingerie that will hide/camo the less attractive bits and completely compliment the stunning bits.

Regarding the EA--to really work on the marriage at all, your hubby will have to have NO CONTACT with the other woman whatsoever...not even at work. Until all contact is ended, your marriage can not progress, and chances are very, very good that he will try every way he can to maintain a little bit of contact somehow. As long as there is any kind of contact, the affair may be way slower and more underground, but it will continue and the dizzy, blaming thinking will continue. So #1 I suggest working on ending the affair. To end the affair you would need two things: 1) Your hubby needs to be willing to end all contact with the other woman and never, ever talk to her again; 2) Your hubby needs to be willing to be transparent with you by giving you access to all his email addresses, IM chats, cell phone etc. to verify his honesty; 3) Your hubby needs to be willing to commit to rebuilding a NEW marriage--one in which you both realize you need to meet each other's Love Kindlers and end all Love Extinguishers (and to do that...you need to tell each other what they are!). You can start #3 by showing him consistently that you "get it" about physical attractiveness and put the work and effort into keeping yourself gorgeous inside AND OUT.


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## vertigo (Jun 3, 2010)

Hi, I was checking out your website and was able to read some of the very helpful articles. However, I found that many links didn't work. Do you need to have membership access to view them? Thank you for sharing your insight!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

vertigo said:


> Hi, I was checking out your website and was able to read some of the very helpful articles. However, I found that many links didn't work. Do you need to have membership access to view them? Thank you for sharing your insight!


Actually we're in the process of moving the entire site from one server to another, and I haven't had time to go through every link yet - should be finished by the end of this week...

I _hope_...


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## vertigo (Jun 3, 2010)

Thank you! I don't know if you have insight for what to do when your spouse leaves for the OP but hasn't gone through with a divorce. Do you think I am doing the right thing? Here is a synopsis:

3/31/09-told WH to move out because he wouldn't stop contactng OW and didn't want to commit to the marriage. I was planning on divorcing him and we started the paperwork but then I learned more about affairs and asked him if he wanted to avoid doing anything legal right now. He agreed. I went NC as much as possible until our baby was born.

7/6/09-baby was born (yep- he cheated on me while pregnant, and we PLANNED the pregnancy)

7/09, 8/09/ 10/09: He brought up divorce saying he needed to proceed with paperwork. I fought him on it. He was also visiting our S at our house. I began making improvements on areas that needed it.
3/10: He said he had to make decision and said we needed to proceed. I asked if he had doubts; he said yes but doesn't everyone? He admitted he didn't want to lose me. I told him we could make it work. He was worried about not getting back to where we were. I told him our "bond" would always be there and we would have a happy, BETTER marriage than before. 

4/28/10 : He said he thinks it's best if he proceeds with paperwork; doesn't want to hurt me. I didn't argue, showed him my prepared drafts of parenting plan and financial stuff, told him he couldn't see S at our house anymore and had to start picking up/dropping off like other divorced parents. Told him to stop texting me daily to check in on S; I would let him know if there was a problem. Went "dim"

5/30/10: I decided that if he doesn't file, I would file in July. BUT decided to do one last ditch effort to show him I have changed (without telling him) and have become warm and friendly, shown my improved figure, shared fun and adventurous activities I was doing (with and without our son) and am working on him with yard and house improvements (in upcoming weeks). 

He still has his stuff in the house! He hasn't changed his address and he is "shacking up" with OW. 

So what do you think of my current plan? Truthfully, I am finally ready to accept divorce if that is what has to be done. At the same time, I have seen lots of areas where I wasn't the best wife and have genuinely changed and improved them...for him or my next husband.

I was thinking of asking him about the paperwork in July, after this last month of leaving the best impression I can, and see why he hasn't done it yet (FYI- it is an easy divorce, and paperwork would take 3 hours to complete. I looked into all of it).

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH for any input! I don't know if you have seen this kind of situation where the WS leaves but then comes back (if it is possible).


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## missv (Apr 1, 2010)

Affaircare--WOW! I felt like you were standing on my shoulder looking into my head! You described exactly what I've felt/been going through all these years. I minored in psych, but when it comes to self-examination....you know. It's a lot easier to just say "yeah, yeah" than it is to really acknowledge it and then to do something about it.
I finally have "gotten" his kindler once I got over my self-justified resentment and it helped to have the validation from you. Everything you've said has made perfect sense. As far as fashion goes, I'm listening to my young adult daughter. :smthumbup: 
So what I'm wondering now... I've gotten, in obvious error, a forwarded text that he sent to her "I love you. call me please". Haven't approached him with it yet, because I'm thinking that until he really believes that this time I intend to follow through, he's not going to cut off his nose to spite his face. I mean, why end this thing with her when history has revealed I don't follow through and he may end up without either one of us. Does it make sense to continue to show with actions until he's really believing it, THEN have the sit down to determine our committment to the marriage? It does to me, but I also don't want to delude myself and actually just ignore yet another issue. 
And if it does make sense to proceed slowly and not rush into things just because I'm ready for a quick fix, any suggestions how to put on the happy face and do the courtship thing while in the back of my mind I just want to throw everything up in his face? He really doesn't realize that I'm aware of what's going on. He really thinks that I believe he's ended it with her on his say-so.
Once again, thank you both so much. I've actually begun to feel like I can take a breath again.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Where can "we all" get a little more info on "Plan A" and "Plan B"?


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

It is in Harley's book. His Needs, Her Needs. Chapter one is on line. The book is $20 in the store. About $16 on line. Read it now. Look at my thread. AC had to pound it into my head. I refused to understand. Law #1 of affairs. Nothing really changes until the affair ends. That doesn't mean you can do things for you that will get things on track when the affair sees the real world and the real world invades the fantasy. AC will fill all this in for you later today I am sure.


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## vertigo (Jun 3, 2010)

hey never mind about my sitch- my WH served me with divorce papers yesterday. Ah well, I tried. When he sees my face hope it gives him hell!


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## luvintokyo (May 10, 2010)

Interesting reading your comments. Felt the need to add my perspective. Been married 17yrs, 3kids. H is the one keen on keeping things together, I am at d stage of the "walkaway wife" but I am the one suggesting Divorce Remedy yet he has no time to finish it, on this site reading about different ways of improving the marriage. Always been the one reading books, checking Mort Fertel sites. H works but I make more money. Always been the main breadwinner because husband "refused to improve himself". Refused to help in the house paid the bills all these years and finally got tired. Met a friend 2yrs ago and had a brief affair which has cooled down, still talking , H found out very mad but wants us together, sadly I dont feel the same way.Since he found out he started trying to imrove. Still has feelings for the OM even though he is not interested. Cant seem to be able to get over the previous years of neglect and being taken for granted. H has not gone on vacation with the family in 17yrs except I pay for it, paid car notes, cell phones, insurance etc until 2months ago when I went on strike. H wants to be commended for taking over the bills for 2 months and cant understand why Im not responding or remorseful. Since i refused to keep paying the major portion of the bills he was forced to look for another job which pays better and now he can Mtg alone for the 1st time in 17yrs+. Sad but not everybody that has an affair is evil or has an evil twin, sometime you just need someone to appreciate you. Will rather move on as I believe rather than show me love my H chose to take advantage of me.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

For Luvintokyo - - - 



> Sad but not everybody that has an affair is evil or has an evil twin, sometime you just need someone to appreciate you.


Not sure why this is a 'sad' thing, but:

A person having an affair is no more evil than anyone else, nor do that affairs happen (very often, at least) due to the desire to do evil. Our website never makes such a claim - we hold that affairs _rarely_ happen in a vacuum - in nearly every case, an affair starts when an outside person appears (or does) fill perceived needs by the 'Disloyal' spouse (the spouse having the affair.) Things lacking in the environment at home create a situation in which the affair seems to be the best solution. 

Also - you misunderstand the 'evil twin' idea: this is not an argument which says that the Disloyal Spouse is somehow schizophrenic; that they suddenly turn evil and wish to do harm to the ones they once claimed to love. That is not the case at all. It is an observation from the other side - from the view of the 'Loyal Spouse' (the one who has not chosen infidelity) - the lack of concern, lack of interest, and willingness to allow harm to happen on the part of the Disloyal Spouse seems surprising and alien to the one affected. 

The reason this happens is because the affair becomes the focus on the part of the Spouse involved, to the extent that the partner left at home becomes second best, at the very most. 

A person involved in an affair nearly always (as in I have yet to see a situation where this did not occur) rewrites their history in order to paint the 'Loyal' spouse in the worst possible light, magnifying all the bad traits, ignoring or minimizing the good traits, etc. This is part of the affect of the affair on the Disloyal Spouse. The affair partner is painted in glowing terms, they have very few, if any flaws - they are seen as 'soul mates'. 

This is not to excuse the 'Loyal Spouse' for their part in the issue: in every case I've ever run into, there are issues that have not been properly addressed at home. Both spouses in a marriage are responsible for the mess in which they find their marriage. But an affair is NOT the moral, nor the proper answer to the problems. It is perhaps the most convenient, certainly the most tempting. But there are always other options. 

In your post, you hint at problems in your marriage - there are issues involved which certainly made the Other Man seem to be the Answer. These are things that could easily be remedied if you were inclined to honor your commitment to your husband: he wants to work on the marriage - that is your golden opportunity. 

However, as we argue in many places, no growth can happen in a marriage as long as an affair is ongoing. Your post is textbook proof of this principle: even though the Other Man is not interested in you, your thoughts are with him, not your marriage. It appears that you have set the hoops you want your husband to jump through just high enough so that he can fail. He will, and you will be able to walk away from the marriage with indignation intact - 'see - he just wouldn't come through for me...'

I'd point out one thing: regardless of your husband's flaws: _you had an affair, and it seems you refuse to apologize for it_ - or even take responsibility for cheating on your husband when you had many other options available.

Sure, you need someone to appreciate you - especially if that is a strong emotional need for you! And that is a valid need - something that your husband would be wise to work hard to fill.

However: your affair has created a defense mechanism for you - it gives you a way of discounting your husband entirely, and removes all possibility for change or growth: 'If he would have been doing X back then, I would not be doing Y now.' You give him no chance: he can't go back into the past and change things: and that's what you demand! Hence, you justify your affair through an irrational and rather mean-spirited method: 'I'll love you when you go back several years and undo what you did...'

Note:



> Will rather move on as I believe rather than show me love my H chose to take advantage of me.


The past-tense of the word 'choose' - as in, 'I get to punish him for things he did in the past,' instead of 'I finally got his attention, and he is working to change - let's see what happens...'

Evil twin?


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## luvintokyo (May 10, 2010)

Thanks Tanelorn for your candid reply. I dont want to punish H for the past but hav honestly lost interest even before I met OM, H wont go for counselling wont read books, now acknowledges the problem but now only in town 3dys a week, mostly away on biz. The past also sometimes determines the future whether we like it or not. Never had common interest, never did anything together.Both of us are busy, no time. It was a long distance relationship before marriage still feels like one. As for the OM I created the distance as I noticed some similar things, never did believe the grass is greener on the other side, pulled away rather than get hurt again. I believe its better to be single and be happy than be together and be miserable. Still dont believe in the "evil twin" thing. The other party also abandoned their vows "to have and to hold" when the neglect started its both ways.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

It can be very frustrating to want to try to fix something and have your spouse simply not be interested. It's a phenomena my wife and I have discussed quite a bit - we are working on ways to communicate this need between spouses. Hopefully we'll incorporate it into our coaching soonish...

Regardless, if he does want to work on the marriage, you have a chance to create a good relationship; something that you may not have had before. The deal with a marriage is this: it's a life-long commitment (for better or worse) - and unless the contract specifically stated 'unless I get bored, or am not happy' or some other 'out' it is still a promise made. 

I side with marriage, so I cannot condone a divorce; but I also believe that people are free to make up their minds - you seem set on divorce regardless - its much more important to you than anything else, so there's not much I can add. 

I will point this out: being single is no guarantee of happiness - that is something that comes with maturity and is a deliberate choice. In my experience, people feel unhappy in one situation and believe that another will change that for them; all the while not realizing that it is their perceptions that create the happiness or the misery - not the circumstances.

As for the not agreeing with the 'evil twin' thing - that too is quite understandable: evil Spock did not consider himself evil either. He simply wanted what he wanted. Most 'evil' people do not think of themselves as evil - usually they are much more concerned with their own self interest to be concerned with how others may perceive them. 

Also - regardless of what 'the other party' does, each person is individually responsible for their own actions and the choices they make. 

Again, I'd remind you that you are still having an affair; and as such are using all the classic phrasing and justifications that pretty much define the 'script': 

_Never_ had a common interest
_Never_ did anything together (one wonders how the marriage happened...)
Too busy, no time for a relationship (with each other...)

Finally, it isn't the _past_ that determines the future, except for physical changes: it is one's perceptions, interpretations and interpolations of the past that determine the future - changing your mind about the past changes how you act in the future. The past is gone, it can't change. How you view your husband today is a direct and deliberate choice - and you use the past to justify the conclusions you come up with (we all do that.) In other words, the entire thing is intellectual: you choose to think certain thoughts about your husband, and refuse to think others. Since that's gone on a long time, it's become a habit, done without conscious deliberation. You've determined your course...so to speak...regardless of your husband being in the equation at all.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well said Tanelorn.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

I was wondering if you could give me some advice in regards to having my wife cut off all contact with the other guy. They work in the same company and do have some interaction that is work related. I forsee this making things much more complicated...


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## cantclearhead (May 1, 2010)

I to would like an answer to mrromantics question...I have the same problem and all counsellers have said not to ask her to quit job Set a time on not looking at emails and on top of everything my wife of 40 years has no answer on why she had an affair after all this time...even the counseller says we may never have an answer...It sucks now having to be the one that has to decide if the marriage should go on when in fact the person who had the affair had allready made their desicion when the affair started...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I was wondering if you could give me some advice in regards to having my wife cut off all contact with the other guy. They work in the same company and do have some interaction that is work related. I forsee this making things much more complicated...


You are quite right - it will make things much more complicated. The affair truly never ends as long as the is any form of contact, and to the degree that the affair does not end, to that degree, the commitment to the marriage falters: the Other Person is always there, a reminder of 'what could have been,' etc. 

Our advice is always the same. No contact means NO contact. This means finding another job, somewhere else. I disagree completely with any counselor who argues to the contrary - all they are advocating is convenience over the marriage. Yes, economic times are hard, but consider what would happen if she lost the job in some other manner: would not the same hardships exist? Would not the process be the same - look for employment elsewhere?

Which is more important: _where_ she works, or the marriage, which can survive the loss of a job.

Yes, it's a difficult thing to ask, but this would not have been an issue had the affair never happened in the first place! This is just as much a consequence of that choice as any other painful result. And it will pass. This is another example of how devastating an affair is to a family.

----------------
Now playing: Pink Floyd - The Nile Song
via FoxyTunes


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## cantclearhead (May 1, 2010)

thank you for the answer on staying on a job Just read one of the love extingishers was controlling but how can you ask someone to quit a job and not be controlling.. I guess I am just at the crossroad where I want to do whats right for our marriage and not destroy it...My wife and I have been doing very well but I have a major issue with her going to the same office which is a very good job to her and will be a big blow to her if she has to leave it ..She has had no contact with the OM in 6 weeks but it will have to happen someday..


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> ...how can you ask someone to quit a job and not be controlling...


By doing just that - asking, not telling. Give her the choice. She is free to choose one or the other. 

Did you read the article I posted above? If not, here it is again. Although it is an uncomfortable read for someone wanting to hang onto the affair, it is something that is worth sharing. 

Controlling a person means that you are telling them what to do, rather than giving them the absolute freedom to choose. The tough part is in the followup - if your wife does decide to maintain contact with the Other Person, you must approach the entire thing as if the affair is still ongoing (in reality it is...) 

That means doing a plan A, Love Dare, etc - until it is evident that your spouse has no intention of honoring the marriage vow. In your wife's situation, I'd suggest sitting with her, letting her know your concerns (remember the WTFS method) and ask for her assistance in working on your marriage. Let her know that as long as she is around the Other Man, even casually, the old memories will stay refreshed in her mind, and she will always be comparing 'what might be' or 'might have been' with 'what is.'

And the real unfortunate part in that is that 'what might be' is ALWAYS better than 'what is' - because your mind fills in the blanks, magnifies the positive and minimizes the negatives about the _imagined_ situation - and does the reverse for the real situation.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I am trying to determine when something nice could be a love buster. If I tell my wife now that I love her, that will likely make her feel uncomfortable. That could be a buster. Harley uses uncomfortable to decide what is a buster. Can I make deposits in the love bank while an affair is ongoing, is what I am questioning. While the affair is going on do I just want to stay away from love busters because I can't bank?


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## missv (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm glad imnottheonlyone asked that question. I, too, am wondering how you go about "enticing" your spouse when they're having an EA or PA. I understand that things will only progress so far while the affair is ongoing, and will only progress as far as where the trouble began. But where does the kindler become the buster? If you show your spouse some affection and they respond, do you keep it at that level, or do you progress until they become uncomfortable? Because it seems to me that at that point, it's become a buster and you're then busted.


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## wantittowork (Jun 21, 2010)

missv said:


> I'm glad imnottheonlyone asked that question. I, too, am wondering how you go about "enticing" your spouse when they're having an EA or PA. I understand that things will only progress so far while the affair is ongoing, and will only progress as far as where the trouble began. But where does the kindler become the buster? If you show your spouse some affection and they respond, do you keep it at that level, or do you progress until they become uncomfortable? Because it seems to me that at that point, it's become a buster and you're then busted.


First post and thank you for having this forum...it's truly helping me. I've been going through everything since finding out a couple of weeks ago. I finally found this site (and affaircare.com, marriagebuilders.com, etc) and have been trying to follow the advice of being calm and just showing love, but my W still insists on checking TOM's facebook, having him on messenger, and states she will call him when she's ready to 'for her own sake' As far as I know, this was only an EA and never went physical although they did see each other from time to time in person.

With that, instead of being constantly sad and begging and pleading, I'm making a sincere effort and acting like I was when we first met, being loving, telling her i love her, she looks beautiful, trying to hold her hand, etc. But, she's being very cold. I got many more acts of sympathy from her when I was moping and crying.

How should I be acting? She's told me on several occassions now that it feels 'weird' and she doesn't know how to respond. Does me telling her I love her deplete her Love Bank by making her feel uncomfortable?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> How should I be acting? She's told me on several occassions now that it feels 'weird' and she doesn't know how to respond. Does me telling her I love her deplete her Love Bank by making her feel uncomfortable?





> I am trying to determine when something nice could be a love buster. If I tell my wife now that I love her, that will likely make her feel uncomfortable. That could be a buster. Harley uses uncomfortable to decide what is a buster. Can I make deposits in the love bank while an affair is ongoing, is what I am questioning. While the affair is going on do I just want to stay away from love busters because I can't bank?





> I, too, am wondering how you go about "enticing" your spouse when they're having an EA or PA. I understand that things will only progress so far while the affair is ongoing, and will only progress as far as where the trouble began. But where does the kindler become the buster? If you show your spouse some affection and they respond, do you keep it at that level, or do you progress until they become uncomfortable? Because it seems to me that at that point, it's become a buster and you're then busted.


I apologize for not getting an answer in here sooner - took the weekend off for Father's Day, etc... 

This is a great question: all three quotes boil down to the same thing: is it possible to be 'busting' someone's love by proclaiming love - by 'overdoing' the niceness, etc.

In a nutshell, I'd say its quite possible to do such a thing - but I think it takes some explanation. There are also ways to do the same thing that does NOT extinguish the fires of love.

The first thing I'd like to point out is that the phrase 'I love you' can be almost meaningless. As long as it is a set of three syllables that you hope will influence or impress the person to who you vocalize them, you have a great chance of doing a lot of damage.

Saying 'I love you' to a spouse who is in the throes of an affair can be taken so many ways - and the reactions can be so different - but here are some possible reaction: "Oh, NOW you say you love me - after all that time when I was trying to get you to notice, NOW all of the sudden you love me..." or "So you love a spouse who cheats, lies and hurts you...interesting..." 

Neither are responses that portend much kindling of love, or depositing in the Love Bank. 

The very first thing I'd suggest is that you list WHAT you love about your spouse. Be specific. Make a list of 100 things you love about them. But even that can be made easier - by understanding what you mean by the word love:

Do you mean admire? Do their actions make you feel admired? Does it infer that you understand them, or that you are unserstood? What do you mean when you say 'love'? Once you figure that out - use THAT expression (rather than the word 'love') to describe what is going on.

THEN make that list.

When speaking to them: do the same thing. Instead of saying 'I love you' - which leaves all the meanings for THEM to insert - be specific. Say something like, 'I really appreciate the way you are always on time' - etc, etc, etc. Put your own words in.

When you do this, you can't really go wrong - even your worst nemesis would be somewhat impressed if you said something like "Wow, I am REALLY impressed at how many minions you have!" Of course, this may not change the outcome - but what YOU did can't be construed as evil, malevolent, etc...


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Affaircare, I sent you a message and I was hoping you can share your opinion on my thread regarding my last two posts. I am reffering to the thread "Did I do more damage?" Thanks


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## missv (Apr 1, 2010)

"The first thing I'd like to point out is that the phrase 'I love you' can be almost meaningless. As long as it is a set of three syllables that you hope will influence or impress the person to who you vocalize them, you have a great chance of doing a lot of damage."

That really hit home. When I was younger at college, I started getting this fear that I'd better tell whomever that I loved them at the end of phone conversations, when we parted, etc. I thought that if something were to happen in the time before we reconnected, the last thing that was said would be love, not anger. So even if I was in the middle of an argument, it would be the last thing said. Since my H is in law enforcement, it was especially important. But I think over the decades, it has transformed into just being words. And the meaning to me has transformed into that if the words are said to me, then everything must be okay.

So------I started my list of 100 things I love about my H. And was so shocked to find it a very difficult thing to do! Had trouble after 5. 
As I stuck with it, it became easier but I realized that there were a lot of negative feelings on my part other than just being the "wronged" spouse. And I realized that those negative feelings were in large part what has kept me from fully participating in our marriage (losing the weight, etc). I still haven't gotten to 100 yet. But I'm up to 30 and it is getting easier.

On to the next step. I've stopped saying those 3 words for every little thing and have become more specific. "I think the way you built that section of deck is really amazing. You make it look so easy." Funny, I can see the confusion in his eyes. But things have become lighter around the house lately. He's calling me throughout the day just to say hi and I'm doing the same. We laugh a lot when he's home. Even my dtr looks at us like what the hell is going on. He even said yesterday that he wants to bring me with him to watch him trap-shoot (something he has recently gotten into).

Some days it takes conscious effort on my part to keep doing this, but it's slowly starting to feel more natural than like a charade. He's moved back into the bedroom this past week. Still no sex, but I guess it's a start.

We're starting to really talk about our day too like we used to. I mean, really talk, like about how something someone did made us feel. Or why we reacted the way we did to something. Granted it's not about us, but like I said. I guess it's a start.

It's still extremely hard for me to not constantly wonder/worry to what degree the OW is still in the picture. I read a post from nice777guy who though his wife may be wanting just the attention from other men, not necessarily the affair itself. And I wonder if that's what's going on in my situation. My H has said repeatedly he needed someone to "listen" to him (even though I thought I was) and he needed to feel "wanted". So I really don't know what the difference is between an EA or the precursor to an EA.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Good job missy!!!


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## picket fences (Mar 22, 2010)

Hi there Affaircare and Tanelorn,
I've posted on and off here. I'm the one who wrote the post a couple of weeks ago about whether it's possible to get over it too fast - and my gut was right again, things were "too good too soon". My H's emotional affair really genuinely was over from my H's end and he's done all the right things there, but emotional issues that caused it were being swept under the rug while he charged ahead with "we're going to have a whole new marriage and be fine, let's move to Brunei!". (I'm not joking. He's a teacher and has been interested in international teaching positions for a while). 

Now, we've slowed things down and taken a step back to look at WHERE we are and HOW we got here, and it feels much more right. Things are going well. H is doing many things right: I have passwords to all his electronic communication; I know where he is all the time, and have ways of making sure he's telling the truth; he told me all the painful steps along the development of his affair, because I told him I needed to know (if I don't know the truth, what I'll imagine will be MUCH worse). He's given me every detail I've asked for. That was hard for him but he did it.

We are in counselling, both together and he's going alone, with real goals and work happening. Found a GEM of a therapist we both really trust. 

So....the school year is drawing to a close and H and I both can't wait, for good reason. I have read your advise about completely cutting off all contact with the OW when an affair has ended. My H and I both agree that is necessary, but we also live in the real world, where having him quit his job is just simply NOT an option for our family. There would definitely be more loss than gain, in a lot of areas for both of us, if H just up and quit his job. H did take the step of telling a co-worker who is a close friend about the affair and asked this co-worker to hold him accountable at the workplace if he sees any contact happening that shouldn't be. H is genuinely trying to do the right thing.

H told me last night, that twice this week, the OW came to his office (he has his own office due to his leadership position, the OW is simply a teacher with no office). She allegedly came in with work-related reasons that quickly turned into general conversation about how "awful and awkward" it is for both of them to still have to work together and see each other after "everything that happened". Still seemed innocent enough to my H, he says he felt uncomfortable but did not know what to do, and admits he should have taken the work-related question out of his office into a common area to begin with and then ended the conversation as soon as it was dealt with, but he didn't, and he apologized for his lack of strength there. I believe his accounting of what happened.
The OW went into his office again yesterday, after she and I unfortunately saw each other at the school ( I had come to pick him up for a counselling appt). Wisely, neither of us acknowledged seeing the other at the time, I put my head down and went where I needed to go. But I guess the OW went to my H's office again, again presenting it as all innocent, saying "wow, was that ever weird to see (me) yesterday, really drives things home", etc. But then, that turned into her telling my H that things are not going how she'd like them to with her own H, and that she is "not over (my H) yet". H says that it was clear that she was "holding a door open for him to walk through, if he chose it", and that he really respects her even less now, for being willing to continue hurting people even after the "bubble has been burst". H states he told her that he couldn't have that conversation with her, that he "made his choice to stay with (me) and fix things", and that it was his understanding that she had also chosen her own H and marriage, and if that she really wanted to save her marriage she would think about her own husband before coming to my H's office again. I really believe he said that to her, it was obviously difficult for him to admit to me that she'd even approached him, he could have just not told me altogether about these two contacts. So I believe my H's recounting of things.

My struggle is this. I have this overwhelming desire to contact the OW. I want her to know that I am REAL, flesh and blood. I want to say to her "You may not be over my husband. I can imagine that's hard for you. But know that I AM NOT OVER MY HUSBAND, I never will be, and he has committed to me. So buzz off." (or words to that effect).

H has asked me _not_ to contct her. He says he knows he can't tell me what to do and it's my choice to make, but he says that he wants to earn my trust back, and that me contacting the OW would set me back in that - that I should just trust him that he is doing the right thing. He sort of wants to use this like a "test", so he can prove to me that he can be trusted to be faithful again. He said that he would talk to her at work today again, telling her not to come to his office for any reason - work related or not - ever again, and telling her that he will disclose to me every single incident of contact between them in the future, whether intentional or accidental, whether professional or personal. She already knows that I have his e-mail passwords; he feels that telling her that he will disclose _every single incident _of any kind of contact to me, will extend that transparency to all possible forms of communication.

So...sorry for the long post...but, what should I do? What would you do? When the school year is over after next week, there will really genuinely be NO contact at all between H and OW until September, and they have NO reason at all to communicate at work beginning in September (there were roles they each held this year that required contact between them, but H has withdrawn his involvement in those projects for next year, for this exact reason). Should I be patient, let my H "take care of it", and take that leap of faith in him? Or should I follow my gut and contact the OW, respectfully but assertively, to just...let her know that I'm HERE - I'm watching - and I will not let her in my marriage again! - ??? Or do you have any other perspectives to give that I haven't thought to ask about?

Thanks so much for any advice!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Picketfences~

I only have a few moments to reply and hope maybe Tanelornpete has a little more time to delve into these points, but here is what I would recommend. 

You need to understand something. Until ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT is established, the affair continues. This is an addiction, and even if it is very limited what is happening now is that the heroin addict only takes very, very little heroin. In order for the heroin addict to recover, s/he HAS TO go through withdrawal. Same here: in order for there to be true recovery and movement forward in the marriage, it is IMPERATIVE to have no contact whatsoever so that he withdraws from the "affair-zing" and the thrill of her. It will be hard and he will miss her and it will hurt (some) but it can not be skipped. If you do choose to skip it, you will do all kinds of building on a house on the sand, put in all kinds of effort and time and feelings and any progress in the marriage will spin and spin but you'll never get to "recovery" because the connection between them is not broken. 

Thus, I recommend these things: 
1) Tell the therapist that contact continues and that the OW is definitely making overtures/invitations to your hubby that your hubby is not utterly shutting down. Any contact keeps the affair going, so the lies are continuing.

2) Reiterate No Contact--he's not her boss, so she has NO BUSINESS ever talking to him. Every time she comes into his office his reply can be "This is unwanted contact in the workplace. Please leave immediately or I will have to report sexual harassment" and nothing else. The Purpose Of No Contact

3) Well...I tend to be a little harder on these things, but I personally believe in nipping them in the bud. I would personally suggest that you contact the school principal or whoever the person is one step above your husband, set an appointment and tell them there was a workplace affair, show them the no contact letter, and let them know that she keeps continues to harass him in the workplace. They need to know that their school district is setting themselves up for a sexual harassment lawsuit!! And yeah--it is unwanted sexual contact because you (the spouse) don't want it! 

What I'm extremely, EXTREMELY concerned about here is that I hear you are tolerating contact until the end of the school year--and your hubby is not taking the bull by the horns and telling her NO MORE! and being forceful about it. You don't need to earn HIS trust, picketfences--he was the one who was disloyal, lied, committed adultery, and hid it! So I'd say either he nips this in the bud a LOT more aggressively or you two have serious issues and are glossing over it.


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## picket fences (Mar 22, 2010)

Thanks for the responsie, AC. I hear loud and clear your message about NO CONTACT, and I certainly agree about the addiction peice. H himself has made the same comparison, saying that having been with the OW was like a "high", and he was honest in saying that he did miss the "high" when everything came out, but he also says that he knows that pursuing that relationship would be as destructive as being addicted to a drug, as well. He's not completely stupid, just a little bit stupid 

I think I may have not stated clearly H's position in regard to contact - he is not seeking out contact with the OW or condoning it, rather she has come to his office uninvited twice, and he did freely point out on his own that he SHOULD have had her leave immediately both times, but that he was like a "deer in headlights", and that both conversations ended when he came out of that stupor and told her that he could NOT be having this contact, and asked her to leave. I certainly don't plan to go to the principal, for numerous reasons but primarily because taht would be H's role, if it was going to be done at all. I'm not completely blind or stupid - I realize that if my H wants and is accepting contact, the OW going to his office is NOT any kind of harrassment, sexual or otherwise. Immoral and dishonourable, but not harrassing. If he clearly tells her he doesn't want her there and she keeps attending, then it is H's role to address that in the workplace, not mine. I'm not an employee there, so I would be breaching confidentiality, or just plain meddling or something. 

So. The school year here in Ontario only consists of three more days. H did not see the OW today, except for at an all-staff meeting with 100 other people in the same room, and when a mutual acquaintance asked him to sit in the same group with her, he declined and sat with the group of Principals and VP's instead. Pretty safe over there.

My question is really, is there any value in my contacting the OW? I have known her as a friendly acquaintance in the past, and actually liked her then, although my opinion has clearly changed drastically. But I know she's not a nutcase who's going to flip out on me. And I wonder if having direct communication with me might drive home to her that there are other people she is impacting with her irresponsible, impulsive, self-serving behaviour of pursuing my H.

And I really do believe my H when he says that seeing the OW pursuing him, even now, makes him lose respect for her even more than he did when the bubble first burst. He says that they were both living in a fantasy world with blinders on before, and he figured that when the bubble burst and she agreed to tell her H about everything too, that the blinders would come away for her like they did for him. So now, he thinks it's awful that she is taking action that would hurt her own husband and family so badly, WITHOUT the weak excuse of being in the bubble and having the blinders - now she's doing it with her eyes wide open, so to speak. I know H's facial expressions and body language and tone, and I'm pretty sure he's pretty disappointed and turned off to her right now. It's pretty gratifying to see!

Thanks again for your thoughts...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

picket fences said:


> Affaircare-My thoughts on this post are in red
> Thanks for the responsie, AC. I hear loud and clear your message about NO CONTACT, and I certainly agree about the addiction peice. H himself has made the same comparison, saying that having been with the OW was like a "high", and he was honest in saying that he did miss the "high" when everything came out, but he also says that he knows that pursuing that relationship would be as destructive as being addicted to a drug, as well. He's not completely stupid, just a little bit stupid
> 
> I think I may have not stated clearly H's position in regard to contact - he is not seeking out contact with the OW or condoning it, Affaircare-(My personal opinion here: by not being firm in refusing it and allowing her to "leave open doors" he is condoning it) rather she has come to his office uninvited twice, and he did freely point out on his own that he SHOULD have had her leave immediately both times, but that he was like a "deer in headlights", and that both conversations ended when he came out of that stupor and told her that he could NOT be having this contact, and asked her to leave. I certainly don't plan to go to the principal, for numerous reasons but primarily because taht would be H's role, if it was going to be done at all Affaircare-(and it would have also been husband's role to tell you his issues and he did not...and it would also have been husband's role to reject her advances and he did not ...and it would also have been husband's role to guard himself against giving his affection and loyalty to another woman and he did not} . I'm not completely blind or stupid - I realize that if my H wants and is accepting contact, the OW going to his office is NOT any kind of harrassment, sexual or otherwise. Immoral and dishonourable, but not harrassing. If he clearly tells her he doesn't want her there and she keeps attending, then it is H's role to address that in the workplaceAffaircare-(please see my notes above about "husband's role." In my opinion part of the reason you have the issues you do is that rather than doing the hard things that need to be done, you push them off onto others.), not mine. I'm not an employee there, so I would be breaching confidentiality, or just plain meddling or something. Affaircare-In the USA no sexual harassment is allowed in the workplace. Harassment would be defined as unwanted sexual contact. Since he has "supposedly" repeated asked her to NOT contact him, and she is "supposedly" not respecting his request (none of which is proven one way or the other by the way) it is harassment by the letter of the law when one party repeated asks another to not contact them and the other party continues or refuses to end contact. In fact, not only would it be sexual harassment at work, but it would verge on stalking and be very nearly a criminal offence. Anyway, when spouse A engages in a workplace affair, then spouse B can go to the employer and let the employer know that unwanted sexual contact IS OCCURRING. That way the employer is obligated to enforce the law or fire the one doing the harassing--and yes it often "makes those in the affair angry" but they are committing adultery at the workplace! So if your husband is not doing "his role" and putting a very firm END to this affair, it is your role to put your marriage and family ahead of his job or any discomfort at work. Picketfences he forfeited "comfort at work" when he committed adultery at work.
> ...


Here's what I see. You wanted to know how to end the affair your husband was having and recover your marriage. We told you the methods we've seen work time and again, and you effectively said, "I'm not willing to lose the finances of my husband's job to end the affair but thanks!" [I wonder--if he was fired or was laid off due to district budget cuts...does your marriage end? Then why would it end if he had to quit now to save your marriage? On the other hand, does your marriage end if he continues his affair, has sex with the other woman, leaves you, and decides to sell the house and not pay any child support until a judge orders him? Yep! But, yeah. In your mind, your situation is "special" and you know better.] 

Then you tell us that your husband is continuing contact with the other woman--but just a little bit. She's still tempting him, other people are enticing him to be in groups with her, and she walks into his office and talks to him! When we tell you this is *direly *serious and you better pay attention to it because no contact is a non-negotiable requirement and you NEED to end the affair entirely before any progress or rebuilding can be done...again you effectively say "I'm not willing to make the infidelity uncomfortable at my husband's job to make sure the affair is fully and completely ended--that would be my disloyal spouse's job (even though he hid things and lied to me before)...but thanks!" Those are the comments above that I highlighted in blue. 

Frankly I don't see any reason to continue to offer suggestions to you. You only want what you want to hear, and I'm respect you too much to *not *give you the absolute truth!! The affair is still ongoing, whether you care to believe it or not. He can not dedicate 100% of his affection and loyalty to you as long as he continues any kind contact with her, and you will not move out of your "comfort zone" to stand for your marriage. I'm not going to tell you you're making great progress because you're not. I'm not going to tell you he's really coming around because a small sliver of him is not. But you go ahead and believe what you want to believe and deny what I'm saying. At this point I would suggest that that you do what you're going to do, since it seems like your mind is made up already and you only want to get approval. I won't lie to you and ongoing contact with the affair partner (even seeing each other and never talking) JUST WILL NOT WORK.

But you know better.


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## missv (Apr 1, 2010)

Ok, I think I'm wasting too much time obsessing over what my H is doing when he's not home. I work every weekend, gone from about 6:30 AM to at least 8 PM. Since I found out about this OW, I'd essentially stopped calling/texting him throughout the day like I used to. He, in return, started texting me less & less. So these past 2 weekends I really turned it on, calling/texting just because. Started getting lots of return. Yesterday, he went for a MC ride. Like I've said before, his passion/relaxation/etc. He told me where he went, texted me throughout the ride. For some reason, I kept picturing her with him. Had no reason to, but I still did. He was in the best of spirits when I got home. But he's always been that way, even before all this.

Sitting at the supper table (he's insisted on waiting supper for me since I've started working these hours) with dtr, he mentions that one day this week he'd like to go (all of us) to lunch at a place we go to every summer, and was that okay with me? Then he says that he wasn't going to go on the Fri/Sat MC ride with the guys (that had been planned for a couple of months) this weekend because his foot is really bothering him (he broke his toe last week) and wouldn't be able to walk around the city. And joked would I be upset if he stayed home instead. Today he said he needed to do some work at a customer's house (would take a couple of hours, 3 different days this week) which I knew had to be done. Not like this is unexpected. Asked me which days I wanted him to go. Asked what my plans were this week, so he could plan around them and be with me when I'm home--just like he used to when he worked 2 jobs.

So here I am, all suspicious and not believing a word he's saying about anything, but with no specific reason. I keep hearing my GF say "move a muscle, change a thought" and I'm trying to not dwell on only the negative and live in a pity party.  But I'm really afraid to let myself be set up- to let my guard down. I know I obviously have a lot of anger that has to eventually be dealt with, and I know there's no quick fix to this...it didn't happen overnight and won't be solved overnight.

Guess I'm afraid to enjoy time with him because I don't trust that it's really me he's enjoying time with. I heard once that if a spouse is giving you attention that they haven't in awhile, it's probably out of guilt and they're doing something they shouldn't be.

What are your thoughts?


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## flowergirl77 (Jun 8, 2010)

Hi Tanelorn,

I just read your article on 'NO CONTACT" with the affair partner and how important this is if a couple is trying to rebuild a marriage. I had an EA with a co-worker, long story short, it lead me to almost leave my marriage and children it messed me up so much. In the middle of the storm, I decided that the best thing for me to do to find the will to try within my marriage was to take a leave from work to get away from the OM and clear my head. It has really helped me to put the focus back on fixing my marriage, and I am to go back to work in 2 days, and am feeling really apprehensive about seeing this OM again. You state that zero contact with the affair partner is essential, but I would hate to have to leave a job I LOVE, that pays me so well-it would be almost impossible for me to find another that pays 18/hour in BC, considering I have no formal education. I also feel it is walking away-running away from something which is not in my character. Is it possible to continue to work (fairly closely) with the OM and keep it all business, or am I asking for trouble? Your honest opinion is much appreciated.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

No cantact means no contact. There is no such thing as "itty, bitty" contact. There are somethings that we just don't want to believe. This is one of them. Does your spouse know about the EA? You need to rebuild your marriage from the ground up. You can only start healing once the OM is completely out of the picture. Truth! Can you talk to your boss about a schedule change? Maybe talk to them about the EA and how important it is that OM stay awasy from you. I am sure you know that if OM bothers you at work it is a sexual harrassment claim/law suit.
You do understand that your marriage is worth much more than your paycheck? If you have read Harley you know that he himself sacrificed a good paycheck for his marriage. I would bet if your left your job your spouse would be more than happy with that if it put an end to the EA. Your spouse can find another job, a second job or pick up more hours. Or your can change your lifestyle.
If I was fortunate enough to be in your H's shoes I would jump at the chance to help.


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## flowergirl77 (Jun 8, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> No cantact means no contact. There is no such thing as "itty, bitty" contact. There are somethings that we just don't want to believe. This is one of them. Does your spouse know about the EA? You need to rebuild your marriage from the ground up. You can only start healing once the OM is completely out of the picture. Truth! Can you talk to your boss about a schedule change? Maybe talk to them about the EA and how important it is that OM stay awasy from you. I am sure you know that if OM bothers you at work it is a sexual harrassment claim/law suit.
> You do understand that your marriage is worth much more than your paycheck? If you have read Harley you know that he himself sacrificed a good paycheck for his marriage. I would bet if your left your job your spouse would be more than happy with that if it put an end to the EA. Your spouse can find another job, a second job or pick up more hours. Or your can change your lifestyle.
> If I was fortunate enough to be in your H's shoes I would jump at the chance to help.


I am coming to the realization that I may be kidding myself that I can maintain a working relationship with this OM, and not be reeled in again. 
I can take an extended leave from work until the contracts change in September, then make sure I am working opposite shifts of him. That is my only option other than quitting. The only thing, is that I will still see him for our staff meetings ans continuing education in-services we have periodically throughout the year.
My HB says he will support whatever decision I make, but doesn't understand why I can't just cut ties with this person now that I see it is not healthy, and that we are working on the marriage. I think he is in a bit of denial about what this relationship became to me-he assumes I should be over it because it meant nothing in reality.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Has he read "His Needs, Her Needs"? He doesn't understand the addiction. You will be in pretty good shape by September is have NO CONTACT. Harley says that any contact will result in starting all over from scratch. You really don't need that pain (again). And your husband doesn't either. By the end of August you will be feeling a whole lot better and thinking much clearer. Just get started on the recovery. Is your husband committed to improvements?


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## flowergirl77 (Jun 8, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Has he read "His Needs, Her Needs"? He doesn't understand the addiction. You will be in pretty good shape by September is have NO CONTACT. Harley says that any contact will result in starting all over from scratch. You really don't need that pain (again). And your husband doesn't either. By the end of August you will be feeling a whole lot better and thinking much clearer. Just get started on the recovery. Is your husband committed to improvements?


I will get the book..and yes my HB is very committed to making improvements, and will do whatever it takes. So I guess I must take the time off needed then. Do I owe this OM and explanation, and a good bye for good email letter? Then when I return, there will be no awkwardness, and no anxiety for me wondering what i will say to him? Probably no a good idea, but I feel like I should put closure on this period of my life, and set him free so he knows there is no longer a chance for us to move forward with our EA.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> My HB says he will support whatever decision I make, but doesn't understand why I can't just cut ties with this person now that I see it is not healthy, and that we are working on the marriage. I think he is in a bit of denial about what this relationship became to me-he assumes I should be over it because it meant nothing in reality.


In realty the affair DID mean something - that's why they are so serious: affairs almost always seem to be the solution to troubles at home - something isn't working out right, and along comes someone who appears to offer what is missing. Of course, reality also involves the fact that with this new person new problems will arise, which can also lead to a new affair, and so on. 

The real solution is to be able to identify, and solve, the troubles in _whatever_ relationship you find yourself. Overcoming the problem removes the temptation to look elsewhere. Hence the need for _both_ partners in the marriage to be _deliberately_ married. By that I mean making conscious, continuous decisions with the intention of filling the needs of both partners. (In fact, I define true love as deliberate action aimed at the well-being of another.) 

'His Needs, Her Needs' is a great tool to help with that. I heartily recommend that book!

As for no contact: it is tricky. Any contact you have with the Other Man will tend to bring back memories - stir up the old feelings. Over time these become less and less - but the danger is always there. On top of this, refreshing those memories tends to open up the imagination - on my, what things COULD have been, if only it hadn't been ruined...which is, in reality, a Disrespectful Judgment about your spouse (see His Needs, Her Needs.)

So, you do have a tough decision to make: if you stay there, you may well be causing some damage to a marriage that has been given new life. And yet leaving brings its own troubles. Possible the best way to look at it is that this is the price you may pay for the affair - as unfortunate as that may be.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I will get the book..and yes my HB is very committed to making improvements, and will do whatever it takes. So I guess I must take the time off needed then. Do I owe this OM and explanation, and a good bye for good email letter? Then when I return, there will be no awkwardness, and no anxiety for me wondering what i will say to him? Probably no a good idea, but I feel like I should put closure on this period of my life, and set him free so he knows there is no longer a chance for us to move forward with our EA.


Actually, that is a very good idea - with one caveat - you write the letter and let your husband read it. Also - it depends on how you word the letter. We have some sample No Contact letters on our website...

----------------
Now playing: Foghat - Drivin Wheel
via FoxyTunes


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## flowergirl77 (Jun 8, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Actually, that is a very good idea - with one caveat - you write the letter and let your husband read it. Also - it depends on how you word the letter. We have some sample No Contact letters on our website...
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: Foghat - Drivin Wheel
> via FoxyTunes


Thanks for your input...I appreciate sound advice like yours when going through a difficult time like this. I will work on composing a letter, much like the last sample on your site, considering I will eventually be working with this person for at least a month before the contracts change in September. I can not take the whole Summer off, but am seriously considering not going back for another month to get myself stronger and better able to handle my work environment with him in it. Part of me wants to go back just to test how 'over' this I really am, but then there is part of me that is afraid of going backwards, and I don't want to be in that place again-I was very depressed, lost weight and disconnected completely from my HB and children, and house duties etc. It was bad, and I have found my way out of it with this distance from the OM and all the personal growth I am working on. I don't want to regress back to square one. These EA are so destructive...one would never realize until one is involved in such a relationship, just how damaging this can be.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Flower,

You are a special person. You have your head screwed on straight. You have been to hell and back. You truly have insight to your soul (and other"s). How did you pull out of this relationship? Is it too soon to ask? Did you recognize how much you were losing? Can you put it into words so that maybe I can get some insight as to how my wife is thinking. You are on the road to recovery. My wife is still tearing a path of destruction and missing her friends and life's joys while claiming she has never been happier. How did you reconcile the pleasure and pain?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey Iam can I make a request? Will you and flowergirl77 make another thread about this topic because I think it's really relevant? I think something like: "How did you end your EA with the OP?" 

In fact--shoot I'll start it!  :lol:


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## flowergirl77 (Jun 8, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Hey Iam can I make a request? Will you and flowergirl77 make another thread about this topic because I think it's really relevant? I think something like: "How did you end your EA with the OP?"
> 
> In fact--shoot I'll start it!  :lol:


Sure! I would love to share my experience and insights if it will help others. I will start a new thread on 'Moving past and Emotional Affair' and share my experience. It may be a day before I can get enough time to write my full story thus far..and my story isn't completely over yet as I still have to deal with the OM at work. I am trying to get up the courage to send him a goodbye email, stating that when I return to work, there is to be nothing other that work between us, and if he does make any further advances toward me I will have to go to our Supervisor. 
To answer Iam's question: It had bees a very difficult road, and the only reason why I have been able to overcome it, and get out out the fog is b/c I took time away from work to get my head straight..I was about to lose my family and tear what was left of my marriage apart for good if I didn't separate myself from this OM. everytime I saw the OM I got pulled into it more and more, it is like an addiction, a rush and excitement I have never felt before. But I know it is not healthy for me, and it must end.
I will share my full store on a new thread as soon as I get a chance to post it..my kids are calling me!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey I'm reviving this thread because as we go along, new folks join the forum. Does anyone have a question they'd like to ask me or Tanelorn? Want to point us to you or your thread? Here's the place!!


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## yogachick (Aug 9, 2010)

"This is not to excuse the 'Loyal Spouse' for their part in the issue: in every case I've ever run into, there are issues that have not been properly addressed at home."

This hurts me very deeply. I am the loyal spouse, I am not a perfect person and neither is my husband. I believe *I* am 100% responsible for *my* behavior regardless of what my spouse does or doesn't do to meet my needs. So why should I take _any_ blame in _his_ affair? My spouse did not even come close to meeting _my_ needs over the years and yet I stayed loyal and _he_ strayed. 

Why should I take _any_ blame in his affair? Seems like telling the rape victim she shouldn't have worn that mini skirt.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as offensive but this really has hurt me and I feel like it's (equally) blaming the victim. I just think life throws everyone hardships and yet each of us are 100% responsible for our own behavior and are supposed to play by the rules, NO EXCUSES. 

FWIW, My husband told me he wanted someone younger, not much I can do about my AGE, so I got a facelift, he LOVES it and is so much nicer to me now, he is encouraging more plastic surgery and intense workouts....I still think it's HIS issue, we all get old.


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## patientone (Jul 31, 2010)

What are suggestions if the OM is possibly still in the picture, WW does not want to work on marriage and not sharing info. Perhaps phone, computer contact is taking place but all is password protected so I have NO idea. Still living together, but no transparency because she does not want to save marriage (in words). I KNOW she lied before about contact, but that means I just removed one avenue..she could have others. Tips/tricks/suggestions?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yogachick~

I can't speak for everyone here, just myself and my own understanding of things, but I have a lot of experience and I do hope I can explain it to you. I've been in both positions--I was the wife whose husband cheated and I was the one who was unfaithful, so I have some compassion both ways. 

You are sort of asking why you should take blame for your husband's affair. Well the fact is you shouldn't because he made the choice to be unfaithful. That's his choice 100%. But notice what was written here: "This is not to excuse the 'Loyal Spouse' for *their *part in the issue: in every case I've ever run into, there are issues that have not been properly addressed at home." So what you ARE responsible for is one thing: YOUR CHOICES. 

I notice you say something like: "...well he didn't meet my needs for a long, long time and I didn't cheat..." Okay that's good that you gave 100% of your affection and loyalty to your husband even though he wasn't meeting your needs. So the point here is not about what HE did. He is responsible for that, he pays the consequence of that, and he is the one dealing with that. We're focusing on what YOU did, and what you did was choose to not meet his needs because he wasn't meeting yours. In other words, a Love Extinguisher. Chances are good that over the years, gradually, the things that kindled love in your relationship declined and the things that put out the flame of love in your relationship increased...and in the standard marriage contract somewhere is usually the concept that you would voluntarily love him (and only him) until you died. 

This isn't a session to blame YOU. Usually this is something that both people in a marriage do, unintentionally. They do little things that put out the flame for a long time and resentment builds...so then they don't "feel" like doing the loving things anymore. BOOM right there the marriage is vulnerable to an affair--and honestly both spouses are susceptible to the temptation of getting some attention, affection and/or appreciation from someone outside the marriage.

Now we could go on and on for months and years trying to "make him" do this or do that, but you know what? You can not change him or make him do anything. He has to choose to do it and put the effort in. Know who you CAN change? YOU!! And I am sure that it hurts to think about it, much less admit it, but some of your behaviors in the past created an environment that lead to an unguarded marriage open to the attack of an affair. So if you want to actually FIX your marriage, my wisest, best, sage advice for you is to look at what YOU did and how YOU contributed and determine to change those things. 

Do you have a spirit of Fault Finding? How about lack of Financial Support or contribution? Attack Dog? Controlling nature? Disrespectfully judging your spouse? Be honest with yourself--no one else is there and no one else can determine it but you. For example, I have a spirit of ScoreKeeping and tend to keep track of who owes who (like for example, he's not meeting my needs so he owes me or I'm not meeting his). Soooo...guess what? Want to recover from the affair? Then the very fastest way will be for you to do your own work and clean up your own side of the street and end that spirit! Let him have the freedom to do his own work and clean up HIS side of the street!

Does that make sense?


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## yogachick (Aug 9, 2010)

I really appreciate all your help and you guys are WONDERFUL!!!

However, I feel the "issue" is HIS, I feel I should should have no blame in his infidelity, he chose to wander, I chose to be faithful and suffer in silence and loyal devotion. We both dished out "love extinguishers" but by his own admission he started it....and there was nothing "little by little" about it, it was severe emotional and verbal abuse out of left field....keep in mind he is mentally ill. My parents have a great marriage and have been together for 50 years, my husbands parents had a horrible marriage so sometimes I think we perceive things VERY differently. My husband is very successful but comes from a very emotionally troubled background and is bipolar so maybe I cut him more slack than I should have. I did my job, he didn't...plain and simple. Maybe he needs to work on himself and I need to go "Eat, Pray, Love" and call it a day. There is only so much a person can take!!!

Anyway, God bless you guys...I'm just in a lot of pain <3


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## tamara24 (Jul 14, 2010)

Hello, 
I was wondering if you had the chance if you could read through my threads and give me an idea where you think I should begin and any other advice. I appreciate all that you do, I have been following other threads that you have written and find them quite to the point. It is under Should I stay or go and is anyone dealing with a husband with ADHD?


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Hi I have read lots and lots of threads and posts and would be very grateful if you could look under my 2 threads and help me out a little.

Plan A or Plan B ?

Its so confusing, coming here being nice, wanting to spend time then sleeping with her.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

both of you are great, and if it wasn't for you, trolls like me would cause ( the word I can't spell, but mean--when people go crazy in the streets).

Take care


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I *am* sorry but could you take a look at my thread again. He also said his "mental illness" has lifted now and he knows what it was (me)


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