# Women Pursuing Men..in the marital bedroom vs in Dating ...is this a double standard?



## SimplyAmorous

I seen this comment in another thread....


Sawney Beane said:


> For every one wife who is like you and does this, there are 99 who think it's their job just to be pursued, and think that making any effort to woo their man is "not in their job description".


and it got me thinking...

Does anyone wonder if SOME of the problem is this... I was talking to my older son a couple days ago, he is 21 still single, he is not much of a pursuer himself, *he knows it IS his place as a man *but still, he doesn't put himself out there enough, not many have crossed his path he WANTS & he is not going to chummy up to those that does not "do it" for him, and he adds..... this IS the way Nature is supposed to be , he is clearly taught this in Church also -that MEN ARE ALWAYS TO BE THE PURSUERS for women, and if a woman as much as TRIES to Pursue...he has been taught .... she generally is not worth having, run from that, it comes off as desperate , even pushy. 

He is purely speaking about the dating world here- not after the marraige vows- not once she has been shown to be wanted, loved, taken in marraige & adored. 

And I thought about that for a moment & said back .... I bet many women have been TAUGHT this as well in our society -it is engrained in their psyche -(I even happen to think like this -in dating anyway). I KNOW this is definitely drilled into Christian women...that it is not proper, ladylike to chase a man under any circumstances, that MEN are the Leaders, born pursuers, we are to be submissive to them, wait for them to catch our attention , come after us, and I figure much of this mentality flows right into marriage, right into the bedroom, and remains there. 

I have noticed some on this very forum, even if wanting it , are "uncomfortable" with this role.... and still WAIT to be pursued. Is it more hormonal beings they are led by estrogen, or more a mentality/conditioning - probably both combined. 

Just a thought. Personally I think in dating, let the men come after us, I felt so strongly about this when I was in high school I would not even reveal the crushes I had -but to my very best friend & I would take her head off if she revealed it to a soul - the guys I liked never knew I liked them. 

But I also think , after marraige --yeah, it is fair game. Women should pursue their little hearts out. Though that may take some UNconditioning ! 

Is it a Double standard in what men & women are being TAUGHT?


----------



## Janie

It's all a double standard. Nearly impossible for a woman to grow up with a healthy sense of her own sexuality. Most women are unaware of the power/pleasure of their own sexuality can bring to their lives.

The timing on this thread is interesting to me - you're speaking my language!! I was just wondering what a newly-single-woman-to-be does with her sexuality. My ending marriage awakened me sexually and our separation/divorce will not kill that.

But, I have no intention of living a celibate life!

So, you're right - what are a woman's options??


----------



## Trenton

First of all, SA, I CAN'T believe you have a 21 year old! You look so darn young.

Anyway, I think there are so many double standards aren't there?

Since women had such a submissive role throughout the majority of history, they of course didn't truly understand their role sexually. I mean...it wasn't that long ago when husband and wife slept in separate beds. I think this is often time why men ended up with mistresses. They loved their wives and families but weren't satisfied sexually? I'm not sure because this is a new idea you just put in my head.

I know that I'm about 80% comfortable with my sexuality as a woman and completely open to experimenting with my husband but there are still times I won't ask for what I want and realize I still have a ways to go in regards to discovery of my body.

In a relationship that is going to last there is no doubt in my mind that both the high emotional needs of a woman have to be met as do the high sexual needs of a man.


----------



## FirstYearDown

While I don't mind initiating sex, I also enjoy being persued. 

I can be direct with my approach, yet I can also appreciate a more subtle form of persuing my husband. Wearing lingerie and heels is a silent signal.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Funny, only the women are answering this in the Men's Clubhouse !!! I so appreciate your opionions.... So it seems WOMEN do see it as a Double Standard....it hinders us somewhat then, like we need to do a switch after we are won, change our stripes, our men would have resented it before -but now he would CRAVE it . 

And if newly single, worry about the Manly men who look down on those who are too easy , they come a dime a dozen, if we express our sexuality too much too fast too willing, we may get labeled somehow by the 'players". 

I am terribly interested in the whole "*Sexual Repression*" thing, it seems so very many women suffer from this , they may not even realize it is there, what holds them back, it has just always BEEN a part of who they are -that "good girls" don't! How many women even set their minds to it? .... it seems even 20 yrs after marraige, we are still confused , trying to maze our ways out of what is "proper" for us to openly express, even with tripidation from our own husbands -at times. 

Even I, after coming out of this --still feel women should lay it low, not be too easy, I am still of the mindset that men SHOULD be those pursuers. I even feel women would do well to "TEST" men, I think we need to be the keeper of what is precious. I think WE , as women, hold the keys to their gentlemenness -even. 

But surely taken too far, some of this can spill over into marriage and hinder free flowing sexual expression, that many men complain thier wives lack- and yes Trenton, so Many did have the GOOD Motherly wife sitting at home tending to the family -while taking up with his Mistress- Seductress. What a shame. Our beliefs in these things -brought us to that somehow. It had to have been. 

It IS a Stumbing block for many women. They FEEL it. They fear being looked upon in those eyes. Hmmm So what is the answer ?? 


Sorry to hear about what you are going through Janie. Those are real concerns, no matter our age, we want to catch the right type of "GOOD" man, be who we are, valued as we are -PLUS still enjoy sex! I couldn't help notice 1 of your posts last night -you said this about my husband on Nice Guys thread >> 


> I think I just fell in love with your husband.


 I just :rofl: , that was sweet - I think I will show him that today! He will get a out of that. He was kinda nerdish in high school, not into sports, very shy, backwards, sucked with women, maybe he wasn't too bad, only asked 3 out, only rejected once. My oldest son is very much like him in personality -but more outgoing, more involved with people /things /pursuits . They both are more on the NICER side of Manning Up. More Beta in their ways. I am always evaluating these things, it is a sickness.

Trenton, I am 45 today- my birthday, I am not crazy about getting older at all - but what can you do!


----------



## Janie

SimplyAmorous said:


> And if newly single, worry about the Manly men who look down on those who are too easy , they come a dime a dozen, if we express our sexuality too much too fast too willing, we may get labeled somehow by the 'players".


True, but that's not my concern - a 'label'. I have a strong sexuality, only unleashed in the past 5 years, and it is an important part of who I am. I won't deny it any more. But, how to express and embrace it in a healthy way? I'm not interested in multiple sex partners or un-emotional/un-connected sex. Ergh - I guess what I'm hoping for is impossible as a single!!!!



SimplyAmorous said:


> I am terribly interested in the whole "*Sexual Repression*" thing, it seems so very many women suffer from this , they may not even realize it is there, what holds them back, it has just always BEEN a part of who they are -that "good girls" don't! How many women even set their minds to it? .... it seems even 20 yrs after marraige, we are still confused , trying to maze our ways out of what is "proper" for us to openly express, even with tripidation from our own husbands -at times.


I am also absolutely FASCINATED by this. I have been a victim of sexual repression as have most women. Even promiscuous women are sexually repressed - probably the most so. Where is the healthy balance? Men are sexual predators by nature - and they're everywhere!! 

I wish I had more time to delve more deeply into this topic right now, but I would have to begin the list of reasons for female repressed sexuality is sexual abuse. I don't know the stats, but the majority of women have been violated - in one way or another, from one extreme to the other - at some point in their lives. The feelings resulting from sexual violation are always the same - SEX IS DIRTY, I AM DIRTY, I ASKED FOR THAT, IT WAS MY FAULT. And a woman's sexuality is covered with a very dark blanket.

I could go on all day with this, but gotta run....




SimplyAmorous said:


> Sorry to hear about what you are going through Janie.
> I think I will show him that today! He will get a out of that.


The most impressive thing about what I read is the way you presented him. It is obvious you truly love him. I'm certain you could have summarized your husband in a negative way, had you cared to. We all could because only our spouses really know enough about us to accurately portray all the ugly. I'm inspired by the positive energy I feel in your writing.

AND, it's good to know there are nice guys out there


----------



## Sawney Beane

SimplyAmorous said:


> I he is clearly taught this in Church also -that MEN ARE ALWAYS TO BE THE PURSUERS for women,...
> 
> MEN are the Leaders, born pursuers, we are to be submissive to them, wait for them to catch our attention , come after us, and I figure much of this mentality flows right into marriage, right into the bedroom, and remains there.


Seen it on this site - the unmitigated sh*te that goes "A man must strive to dominate and a woman must strive to be dominated". This stuff spreads like mildew!



> But I also think , after marraige --yeah, it is fair game. Women should pursue their little hearts out. Though that may take some UNconditioning !
> 
> Is it a Double standard in what men & women are being TAUGHT?


Yep, everywhere. There's no getting away from the idea that this is only "right" way. But like they say
1) if it smells like horsesh*t, looks like horsesh*t and sticks like horsesh*t, the chances are it *is* horsesh*t; and
2) No matter how hard you polish a t*rd, it's *still *a t*rd.
The idea that only men can pursue meets both the above criteria.

The trouble, if you repeat a load of old cobblers often enough, people will believe it, unfortunately.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Sawney , can you explain why this bothers you so much, what fuels this ?

Just trying to understand. If anyone , I get a little bent out of shape over some of it myself cause my husband is NOT dominant like this ...."A man must strive to dominate and a woman must strive to be dominated". He is odd, he loves to be pursued. He has little interest in "the chase", being dominant, aggressive, it is just not who he is. Unless angry maybe. 

I have argued & even taken to debate with some of these very posters myself. But at the same time, I can NOT deny that the majority of women are TRULY turned on by that !
Heck I am too! I am not going to get it in the style I might be wanting in comparison to some other wives, but I bet their men have a little something less than what mine has, so in the scheme of things, it ain't such a bad trade. 

I am all for 'being different" and Be who we are , ya know, out of the box is OK, I find more mystery with that anyway. Just searching for some balance and dissecting this issue if it can be done. 

If any men can come forward and explain how they view it all, and if they feel some of this CAN hinder women's sexuality at the same time, I would love to hear it down to the detail. 

Seems the wolves don't want to touch this ! Come on guys , I am somewhere in between in my views, open for the differences, in our men & our women.


----------



## zpac

Why would a woman want to pursue? Women have the upper hand in that aspect. It's better to be pursued than to pursue.


----------



## Janie

Sawney Beane said:


> 1) if it smells like horsesh*t, looks like horsesh*t and sticks like horsesh*t, the chances are it *is* horsesh*t; and
> 2) No matter how hard you polish a t*rd, it's *still *a t*rd.


Sorry Sawney,

I can't help but comment on the inextricable link between feces and your outlook on life!! 

I think my funny bone must be permanently exposed, cuz I'm completely amused


----------



## zpac

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am terribly interested in the whole "*Sexual Repression*" thing, it seems so very many women suffer from this , they may not even realize it is there, what holds them back, it has just always BEEN a part of who they are -that "good girls" don't! How many women even set their minds to it? .... it seems even 20 yrs after marraige, we are still confused , trying to maze our ways out of what is "proper" for us to openly express, even with tripidation from our own husbands -at times.


I don't think women are sexually repressed at all. Women just don't like sex as much as men, that's why they are less likely to initiate, be adventorous and so forth.

The do not suffer from being "held back" sexually. Being conservative(prudeish) when it comes to sex is just who women are.


----------



## Janie

I completely disagree. Women are the fountain of sexuality, by nature. Our bodies are designed to tempt, seduce and satisfy.

Under it all, the body is willing.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

zpac said:


> I don't think women are sexually repressed at all. Women just don't like sex as much as men, that's why they are less likely to initiate, be adventorous and so forth.
> 
> The do not suffer from being "held back" sexually. Being conservative(prudeish) when it comes to sex is just who women are.


Oh my, I am sorry I have to disagree with you here.... you can NOT make a blanket statment here -cause if you do, you are including ME in on it and let me tell you...NOT the case !!!! 

I will argue with you till the cows come home if you want but I persononally KNOW of the mental merry go round mindset I had in my youth to hamper my sexuality and it was NOT because I didn't like sex ! I craved to be touched but I could not "let loose", I felt I would be judged by God, it was like going against ingrained beliefs, I had alot of guilt. I felt many things were dirty, I was uneducated, embarrassed ...but at the same time... damn it I loved it too!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> I know that I'm about 80% comfortable with my sexuality as a woman and completely open to experimenting with my husband but there are still times I won't ask for what I want and realize I still have a ways to go in regards to discovery of my body.


I feel I am at 100%, I seriously hold back NOTHING with my husband... what I want, what I fantasize about -it is at it's heights , finally erotic freedom. Where was I before, hmmm I am not even sure who that woman was ! ...Maybe 40% in touch with my sexuality.... I was half ashamed of it and terribly shy to even be seen with the lights on. 


Being able to come to this place.....I feel it sure helps how our husbands treat us day in day out , after all we women do have insecurities to fight, beliefs to overcome, possible hurts of the past, abuses, etc. 

How my husband has received me - when coming out of this...not even understanding what was going on ..totally accepting of every wave of the roaring sea that was coming to HIS shores -not that he could stop it (never underestimate the power of a hormonal surge!)... being what I am, how I think, what turns me on -even if outside of him at times, and not judging or even feeling a tinge of such judgement -from him. How much is that worth to a woman? To this, I owe my husband, and his blessing - even to express on this very forum, he has no cares at all.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Janie said:


> I have a strong sexuality, only unleashed in the past 5 years, and it is an important part of who I am. I won't deny it any more. But, how to express and embrace it in a healthy way?


 We sound very much alike Janie -in many of the things you say! So wonderful to hear your views on this & that another is fasiniated by this subject. 





> Even promiscuous women are sexually repressed - probably the most so.


 Now this is something I have never really thought about at all, as my way of thinking was ALWAYS on the other end of the spectrum, the good girl who couldn't let loose. 


> I would have to begin the list of reasons for female repressed sexuality is sexual abuse. I don't know the stats, but the majority of women have been violated - in one way or another, from one extreme to the other - at some point in their lives. The feelings resulting from sexual violation are always the same - SEX IS DIRTY, I AM DIRTY, I ASKED FOR THAT, IT WAS MY FAULT. And a woman's sexuality is covered with a very dark blanket.


 I am sure you are so right -about the sexual abuse - their way of acting out is different from the overly religious, but still stems from wrong thinking to bring women down, where they get stuck and can't climb out of. 

I would love to see that list you come up with -when you have some time.


----------



## Sawney Beane

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sawney , can you explain why this bothers you so much, what fuels this ?


Because even if what you are doing works absolutely fine for all concerned, stuff like this raises the doubt that somehow something is "wrong" and causes everything to spin out of control. Like the idea that unless a woman orgasms via thrusting it isn't "real", when despite things being absolutely fine something that's isn't broken gets wrecked in the attempt to "fix" it.

And the total failure of this philosophy to understand that there is NOT one size that fits all. And therefore that if this approach doesn't seem to work for you, it's because the _philosophy_ is wrong for you, _not_ that you are wrong.

It seems to be something where the data is fitted to the model, rather than the model built from the data.


----------



## Deejo

Atholk said:


> Women enjoy being dominated by men they are attracted to; hate it by men they are not attracted to.
> 
> There's also a sort of a chicken and egg thing here.


If a woman is engaged and _attracted_ to her partner, then the sky is the limit, if she is comfortable with herself.

This is quite often the case during the honeymoon phase. 

It is also the reason why if engagement and attraction have left the building, that a guy pouring on 'pursuit mode' becomes even LESS attractive.

I think sometimes it's bait and switch.

Sometimes it's drudgery and disinterest.

Sometimes it's utter disdain and disgust.

I personally (other than several men and women here) am not aware of any couples where the woman is proactively sexual or adventuress in long term relationships. The common theme is that desire simply wanes over time. And depending upon what kind of shape the rest of the relationship is in, will determine the arc from there.

That is not to say that I don't believe they exist.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Janie said:


> Sorry Sawney,
> 
> I can't help but comment on the inextricable link between feces and your outlook on life!!
> 
> I think my funny bone must be permanently exposed, cuz I'm completely amused


Nothing to do with my outlook on life, unless you think there's a problem with calling it how it is

Call a spade a spade, and a crock a crock. Simples!


----------



## Laurae1967

Sawney Beane said:


> Seen it on this site - the unmitigated sh*te that goes "A man must strive to dominate and a woman must strive to be dominated". This stuff spreads like mildew!
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> Yep, everywhere. There's no getting away from the idea that this is only "right" way. But like they say
> 1) if it smells like horsesh*t, looks like horsesh*t and sticks like horsesh*t, the chances are it *is* horsesh*t; and
> 2) No matter how hard you polish a t*rd, it's *still *a t*rd.
> The idea that only men can pursue meets both the above criteria.
> 
> The trouble, if you repeat a load of old cobblers often enough, people will believe it, unfortunately.


Amen! I'm tired of the gender stereotypes some folks espouse on these boards.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Oh wow. Women are programmed to schizoid. When they are young they hold nearly 100% of the power in a relationship because "I have the lady parts, that's why". Their role often devolves into being a cold controlling beotch. Which they will then turn around and tell her man she resents HIM for turning her into. And when he's older and a little smarter and tells her to go pound sand, there's plenty of 30 year olds out there, she gets even angrier colder and more withholding. 

If I were 17 or 18 again I would run screaming from every princess who demanded 'courting' so she could say "NO NO NO" 90% of the time. I say they should all die alone and miserable surrounded by cats.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Runs like Dog said:


> If I were 17 or 18 again I would run screaming from every princess who demanded 'courting' so she could say "NO NO NO" 90% of the time. I say they should all die alone and miserable surrounded by cats.


I am very curious...is this what happened to you RUNS, did you marry a Princess who wanted Courting? 

They teach "Courting" in our Church, my son has spoken against "dating" in favor of "Courting" many times in our house, I always would argue with him that is craziness - he needs to get his balls out there, date some women, have a few experiences. He is waiting for some fairytale to unfold. I feel his faith is very blind. 

....I fear if he plays it this "good" -he has a decent chance of getting burned after the vows. 

Honorable maybe, but *not *worth the Risk.


----------



## zpac

Runs like Dog said:


> I say they should all die alone and miserable surrounded by cats.


Most women enjoy being single and would rather be single than in a relationship with a man.

To most women finding a man is very low on their priorities and dieing alone wouldn't be such a big deal.


----------



## Runs like Dog

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am very curious...is this what happened to you RUNS, did you marry a Princess who wanted Courting?
> 
> They teach "Courting" in our Church, my son has spoken against "dating" in favor of "Courting" many times in our house, I always would argue with him that is craziness - he needs to get his balls out there, date some women, have a few experiences. He is waiting for some fairytale to unfold. I feel his faith is very blind.
> 
> ....I fear if he plays it this "good" -he has a decent chance of getting burned after the vows.
> 
> Honorable maybe, but *not *worth the Risk.


Yes I think so. I think the woman I wound up with is emotionally crippled and lives at the emotional level of a 12 year old who's been read Cinderella her whole life and on some level thinks it's a documentary. Her entire world view as well as her perspective on marriage and on me is literally from the point of view that she does not have to expend any interest or effort in anything for any reason, that she's never in any way accountable or responsible and my role is to chase and chase and chase like a Boston terrier but one who never gets tired or bored or frustrated. And her role is to remain some unattained and unattainable princess who deserves to be loved because she's a princes not because she's a real person or that she has to return love in any way for any reason. 

A clinician would call it a kind of narcissist paranoid psychopathology. But in a very outwardly sweet way. Adorable if she really were 12 but heinous as a full grown wife and mother. A pop psychologist would likely say something like "She needs to own her problems and issues and her life" or something like that. 

But isn't that what fairy tales ARE?


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> Seems the wolves don't want to touch this ! Come on guys , I am somewhere in between in my views, open for the differences, in our men & our women.


I'll touch. 

First, in your OP, I would say your son has it backwards. Way backwards.

But that is understandable, like not seeing the forest for the trees, or the very air around us that we breath for life, to understand it is this way:

The man who demonstrates by his actions and behavior his dominance, he WILL attract the attention of women. Many women. They will CHOOSE him. 

Is this the woman pursuing the man? Certainly, but not in a contest of masculinity, but of femininity. Her subtle cues, her hints, stroking hair, fitness testing, PROVOKING him to chase her. This is how it works in dating or marriage or marriage of many many years.

But in this choosing, it is still the male's responsibility to initiate, to lead, to demonstrate his dominance. 

Could I give a dozen examples in my own relationship with my wife, when we first met in highschool, textbook relationship "dance". 

She was going steady with another boyfriend, athlete, wrestler, etc. 

I dismissed him in front of her, flirted with her in front of him, just a few times but so so bluntly and boldly. 

She will say that to this very day, never met a boy so bold.

So then she was easily on my hook. And married over 22 years now, it is not so different.

Hypergamy, it is really that simple.



So what is the difference between dating and marriage? Again I say it is no different at all.

Read this list about dating and attraction, concerning marriage, it is the same:


How to Attract Women - Ten Secrets of Attracting Women - Dating Online


Getting a woman to initiate sex is beyond easy, the man simply has to be of the kind of man that a woman desires to initiate sex with.

It's up to the man.

Yes the man.

He wants sex, then it is for him to be the good man that by his own actions and behaviors, yes that HE OWNS and HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR, to demonstrate his dominance for the pleasure and delight of his woman. 

If he does not demonstrate this to her satisfaction, she WILL test him, fitness testing. Her striving to be dominated.

When the structure of sexual attraction is in place, sex will flow like a river.

The man who complains about lack of sex, it is good for him to come to these boards to get a cold bucket of reality. The answer starts in his own mirror.

I am here at TAM to encourage the men here to confront themselves, that is why I am here.


----------



## zpac

BigBadWolf said:


> Getting a woman to initiate sex is beyond easy, the man simply has to be of the kind of man that a woman desires to initiate sex with.
> 
> It's up to the man.
> 
> Yes the man.
> 
> He wants sex, then it is for him to be the good man that by his own actions and behaviors, yes that HE OWNS and HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR, to demonstrate his dominance for the pleasure and delight of his woman.
> 
> If he does not demonstrate this to her satisfaction, she WILL test him, fitness testing. Her striving to be dominated.
> 
> When the structure of sexual attraction is in place, sex will flow like a river.
> 
> The man who complains about lack of sex, it is good for him to come to these boards to get a cold bucket of reality. The answer starts in his own mirror.
> 
> I am here at TAM to encourage the men here to confront themselves, that is why I am here.


Always the mans fault huh? 

These generic "it's the mans responesibility" replys are getting rather tiresome. EVERYTHING in a marriage seems to be the mans responsibility or fault.

It's the generic reply for EVERY marriage problem. It's never the wifes responsibility. Wifes can do no wrong .


----------



## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel I am at 100%, I seriously hold back NOTHING with my husband... what I want, what I fantasize about -it is at it's heights , finally erotic freedom. Where was I before, hmmm I am not even sure who that woman was ! ...Maybe 40% in touch with my sexuality.... I was half ashamed of it and terribly shy to even be seen with the lights on.
> 
> 
> Being able to come to this place.....I feel it sure helps how our husbands treat us day in day out , after all we women do have insecurities to fight, beliefs to overcome, possible hurts of the past, abuses, etc.
> 
> How my husband has received me - when coming out of this...not even understanding what was going on ..totally accepting of every wave of the roaring sea that was coming to HIS shores -not that he could stop it (never underestimate the power of a hormonal surge!)... being what I am, how I think, what turns me on -even if outside of him at times, and not judging or even feeling a tinge of such judgement -from him. How much is that worth to a woman? To this, I owe my husband, and his blessing - even to express on this very forum, he has no cares at all.


I totally read you and this is on me, not my husband. I'm 100% sure he'd be up for anything and would love to please me in any way possible but I am rather timid. 

We were in the bathroom in a full length mirror and he was behind me and I can assure you that I found the entire thing entirely erotic but staring at us embarrassed me just as much as it was turning me on. I had to force myself to keep my eyes open and because I was distracted by my embarrassment I couldn't cum. I later used it as masturbation material and there were fireworks...haha. 

Now I am honest with him about all of this and he wishes I would not feel the way I do. I know he accepts me and is an extremely thoughtful lover. I have work to do with my own mind but I DO HOPE to get to where you are. I've an idea where my crap comes from but I've no idea how to get rid of it.

Anyway, back on topic, I do think women should feel free to pursue their husbands. I think it is one of the gifts of being married and if women do not pursue they are missing out on having a very fulfilling sexual and emotional connection with their husband. I think sex and emotions are very closely tied for both men and women when it is within the confines of a marriage. I think it makes what you have exclusive and stronger.

How to get this message out to women? I've no idea?


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf said:


> I'll touch.
> 
> First, in your OP, I would say your son has it backwards. Way backwards.
> 
> But that is understandable, like not seeing the forest for the trees, or the very air around us that we breath for life, to understand it is this way:
> 
> The man who demonstrates by his actions and behavior his dominance, he WILL attract the attention of women. Many women. They will CHOOSE him.
> 
> Is this the woman pursuing the man? Certainly, but not in a contest of masculinity, but of femininity. Her subtle cues, her hints, stroking hair, fitness testing, PROVOKING him to chase her. This is how it works in dating or marriage or marriage of many many years.
> 
> But in this choosing, it is still the male's responsibility to initiate, to lead, to demonstrate his dominance.
> 
> Could I give a dozen examples in my own relationship with my wife, when we first met in highschool, textbook relationship "dance".
> 
> She was going steady with another boyfriend, athlete, wrestler, etc.
> 
> I dismissed him in front of her, flirted with her in front of him, just a few times but so so bluntly and boldly.
> 
> She will say that to this very day, never met a boy so bold.
> 
> So then she was easily on my hook. And married over 22 years now, it is not so different.
> 
> Hypergamy, it is really that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> So what is the difference between dating and marriage? Again I say it is no different at all.
> 
> Read this list about dating and attraction, concerning marriage, it is the same:
> 
> 
> How to Attract Women - Ten Secrets of Attracting Women - Dating Online
> 
> 
> Getting a woman to initiate sex is beyond easy, the man simply has to be of the kind of man that a woman desires to initiate sex with.
> 
> It's up to the man.
> 
> Yes the man.
> 
> He wants sex, then it is for him to be the good man that by his own actions and behaviors, yes that HE OWNS and HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR, to demonstrate his dominance for the pleasure and delight of his woman.
> 
> If he does not demonstrate this to her satisfaction, she WILL test him, fitness testing. Her striving to be dominated.
> 
> When the structure of sexual attraction is in place, sex will flow like a river.
> 
> The man who complains about lack of sex, it is good for him to come to these boards to get a cold bucket of reality. The answer starts in his own mirror.
> 
> I am here at TAM to encourage the men here to confront themselves, that is why I am here.


This is advice for a man that wants to attract an ordinary woman (regardless of her attractive rating on a scale) and one that is looking for pomp and circumstance rather than something more true and valuable. Which is perfectly fine but not what I would be hoping for, for my sons.


----------



## FirstYearDown

zpac said:


> I don't think women are sexually repressed at all. Women just don't like sex as much as men, that's why they are less likely to initiate, be adventorous and so forth.
> 
> The do not suffer from being "held back" sexually. Being conservative(prudeish) when it comes to sex is just who women are.


:lol::lol:

The word is "prudish" and what you have written is pure generalizing nonsense.

I suppose you will tell me that since I am not sexually conservative and LOVE sex, I must be a deviant.

Just as you find "It's the man's responsibility" tiresome, I find your words limiting and naive.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

BigBadWolf said:


> First, in your OP, I would say your son has it backwards. Way backwards.
> 
> But that is understandable, like not seeing the forest for the trees, or the very air around us that we breath for life, to understand it is this way:
> 
> The man who demonstrates by his actions and behavior his dominance, he WILL attract the attention of women. Many women. They will CHOOSE him.


 I just want to say here, he DOES attract the women. A few have been seriously gorgeous too. I tell him he is going to kick himself someday-for letting them slip through his fingers. I hold out hope for one that has wanted him for over 3 yrs. She is beautiful and her family loves him too. 


But NO, he has not been able to snag the 2 he seemed to have his heart set on. Got "friend zoned" twice- he has grown mightliy in confidence since #1, I think #2, although a christian girl wanted the "Bad boy" persona-cause her last boyfriend was rather rough....it just isn't my son. 



> Is this the woman pursuing the man? Certainly, but not in a contest of masculinity, but of femininity. Her subtle cues, her hints, stroking hair, fitness testing, PROVOKING him to chase her. This is how it works in dating or marriage or marriage of many many years.


 This IS going on, so all is good, then he has many he has ZERO interest in & finds annoying and tries to ignore them but hates to be too rude. It bothers him some. The others , the acceptables but not in love with- he is very loose with his getting back, kinda keeps them hanging on as friends, but never goes in for the kill type thing- cause she is not who his heart is pining for. 


> But in this choosing, it is still the male's responsibility to initiate, to lead, to demonstrate his dominance.


 I agree, he agrees. 



> Could I give a dozen examples in my own relationship with my wife, when we first met in highschool, textbook relationship "dance".
> 
> She was going steady with another boyfriend, athlete, wrestler, etc.
> 
> I dismissed him in front of her, flirted with her in front of him, just a few times but so so bluntly and boldly.
> 
> She will say that to this very day, never met a boy so bold.


 Don't you think this is going a little too far in disrespect !?? I can tell you my husband and son would NEVER NEVER NEVER do something like that !! They wouldn't even do that if someone paid them to do it. 

.... I just read what you wrote here to my husband -he answers with a  look on his face..."if that other guy was BIG enough, he should clean his clock " then added he feels that was ignorant, that guy should have kicked the Sh** out of you & you would have deserved it. I know you are too confident to care what a nice guy thinks , ha ha 



> Hypergamy, it is really that simple.


 Urban Dictionary: hypergamy

I gotta be honest, seems like nothing more than an ago trip to me, but hey, if that is what works for most women, I guess you guys can knock yourselves out. 




> How to Attract Women - Ten Secrets of Attracting Women - Dating Online


 Good list :smthumbup:




> When the structure of sexual attraction is in place, sex will flow like a river.


 I like the way that is described, but I still think some women's drives are too low and it is less the man's fault, he would do fine with some other women lining up .

It is not all that black & white.


----------



## ladybird

zpac said:


> *I don't think women are sexually repressed at all. Women just don't like sex as much as men, that's why they are less likely to initiate, be adventorous and so forth.
> 
> The do not suffer from being "held back" sexually. Being conservative(prudeish) when it comes to sex is just who women are.*


You can't speak for all woman... I am guessing that you are not a woman. You also can not speak for me... I love sex always have. I am not prudish nor an i Conservative in the bedroom.

Also I think that pursuing should not be just left up to a man. I think that woman should also.


----------



## SockPuppet

SimplyAmorous said:


> Is it a Double standard in what men & women are being TAUGHT?


From personal experience Women with more Alpha, the doer's, the ones who have a plan, the women you can tell are going places, pursue.
Given, women who's life amibition revolves around planning their ensemble (hope I used that word right) for the following weekend club scene pursue some of the time.
And I have yet to see any females pursue that dont fit one of the two above descriptions.

With men, Nice Guys (primarily beta) dont pursue, and the other guys do.

I think it has more to do with character than what we are taught. Your either a go-getter or your not.

Also, just my opinion, but what we are taught is rather meaningless. One point of frustration I have with my father is his lack of reason. He can tell me what to do and how to do it, but not why. Why? Because he himself doesnt have a clue. Just do it. Why? Just cuz, or because I said so. 

The younger generations are picking up on this. Older people were told you have to vote, other countries dont have the same opportunities to vote, you have too!!! Just cuz!!!! Its your damn right!!!

These kinds of messages dont work on younger generations, as is obvious by the severe lack of youth voters in canadian polls last year. But this is just one example, and just my opinion.


Character.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> I have work to do with my own mind but I DO HOPE to get to where you are. I've an idea where my crap comes from but I've no idea how to get rid of it.


 It really IS all in the mind, this I am convinced. KInda like Manning up even, taking on a new mindset, exchanging old thinking patterns for new, seeing ourselves as Janie said here ...* Women are the fountain of sexuality, by nature. Our bodies are designed to tempt, seduce and satisfy."* Love that!


...to get ahold of that and not be ashamed any more, and to find this the younger in the marriage -the better. This is what trips me up . 

I might not have been touched by any abusive things like many women struggle - I was too prudish to allow such an opportunity. But I seen my own mother suffer enough from these kinds of things...and it did mess her up , self esteem dragging on the floor. She was at one extreme , and I was on the other -I vowed to never make her mistakes. Our experiences , even what might be too close to home, have a profound effect on us. Still doesn't have to define us. 



> I do think women should feel free to pursue their husbands. I think it is one of the gifts of being married and if women do not pursue they are missing out on having a very fulfilling sexual and emotional connection with their husband. I think sex and emotions are very closely tied for both men and women when it is within the confines of a marriage. I think it makes what you have exclusive and stronger.


 AMEN :smthumbup:



> How to get this message out to women? I've no idea?


If anyone has a story of overcoming, let it come forth where another can hear -what else do any of us have. "Seekers" usually benefit from others personal journeys- if they are open to the message, and they devote themselves to finding that for their own marriages. 

I do not blame all of our lights out -under the covers, using a Fig leaf to cover my body -on my husband for not being more manned up -to have had his way more with me back then. It falls on me too. Sure he could have done more to open my eyes, but I was a bit grouchy back then more than I am now, probably cause I needed laid more (what a rediculous situation)-I was missing all of THIS damn it ! Us women are impossible sometimes! 

When we took to forgiving each other of what we missed , him now getting more uninhibited & more openly everything , he felt MORE LOVED & emotionally fullfilled -and in turn, I got more vulnerability out of him- and assertiveness ... a win/win. And I am much more happy emotionally as well, I couldn't even dare take him for granted now.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

SockPuppet said:


> From personal experience Women with more Alpha, the doer's, the ones who have a plan, the women you can tell are going places, pursue.


 Yeah, it comes EASIER for this type of personality... I am not going places, cause I have no desire too, but this pursuing tendency -when I get my heart on something -it doesn't let up -until I conquer it. But I find it very difficult to be patient sometimes-where it may be needed. Double edged sword in that respect. 

.....


> With men, Nice Guys (primarily beta) dont pursue, and the other guys do. ...I think it has more to do with character than what we are taught. Your either a go-getter or your not.


 I think like you on this, I often point to personality types for nice breakdown in the different strenghts & weakneses. Me & my husband are utter opposites. I have often joked with him, had he married a woman like himself and felt rejected, darn , he wouldn't have gotten any sex at all , he would have been up the crick without a paddle! 

He has NEVER been a "relentless" pursuer by any means, I would even call it "weak hand shaked" . It doesn't take away from who he is -*FOR ME* - as he has what I lack and I have what he lacks , so together , we make a glorious whole- so long as we are treating each other with love & respect. 

His personality type is the same as Mother Teresas, not too many men have that. Mine is somewhere between a Colin Powell & Martha Stewart. 



> Also, just my opinion, but what we are taught is rather meaningless. One point of frustration I have with my father is his lack of reason. He can tell me what to do and how to do it, but not why. Why? Because he himself doesnt have a clue. Just do it. Why? Just cuz, or because I said so.


 In my opionion, if you can't explain *THE WHY*, then the whole conversation should be shot & killed, that is the heart of it all. I worship "Reason". I love to explain the WHY's of everything, and if I don't know, I am surely going to seek it out ! 

Teaching my kids the Why's, Oh how I enjoy that.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Brandon455 said:


> While I don't mind initiating sex, I also enjoy being persued.
> 
> I can be direct with my approach, yet I can also appreciate a more subtle form of persuing my husband. Wearing lingerie and heels is a silent signal.


I feel as you also. Not sure lingerie with heels would be a "silent subtle though" - more a "visual obvious" I would think . If I went to that trouble and the guy blew me off, I would want to take his head off , I would be seething. Never been an issue of coarse, but just saying, that would really tick me off, and of coarse HURT.


----------



## Zzyzx

Interesting thread, this. My ex was quite repressed sexually and likely suppressed her own libido in support of that repression, on top of which she gaslighted me to say I was the one who was deviant. It's good to know women exist who are fully cognizant of their sexuality and very OK with it. I sure hope I find someone like that someday... thank you for expressing yourselves along these lines, it gives me hope.


----------



## RandomDude

SA,

Once he finds someone who blows his mind away, he will make his move. I'm also a bit like that, I'm turned off by women who approach me (but not those who tease and seduce me! That's how women should approach men in my opinion!)

In marriage too, I like to be a conqueror. In the past wifey made it hard for me to conquer her - and I wanted to bang her so bad for over a year lol. Ever since marriage though, she's been too easy... and my desire for her dwindles on and off.

But there are things women should learn, not necessarily to straight out pursue their men but how to entice men to come to them; aka seduction. Your son's future wife will have to impress him.


----------



## Sawney Beane

BigBadWolf said:


> I'll touch.
> 
> 
> Could I give a dozen examples in my own relationship with my wife, when we first met in highschool, textbook relationship "dance".
> 
> She was going steady with another boyfriend, athlete, wrestler, etc.
> 
> I dismissed him in front of her, flirted with her in front of him, just a few times but so so bluntly and boldly.
> 
> She will say that to this very day, never met a boy so bold.
> 
> So then she was easily on my hook. And married over 22 years now, it is not so different.


Two things: maybe HE thinks he was lucky to not end up with someone (in his opinion) so shallow as to be impressed by some blowhard and so lacking in anything resembling loyalty or integrity tbecause she'd walk off with anyone who struts it up, and maybe you were lucky he wasn't someone who decided to respond by knocking you to the ground and stamping repeatedly on your face while his girlfriend laughed at you.



> Getting a woman to initiate sex is beyond easy, the man simply has to be of the kind of man that a woman desires to initiate sex with.
> 
> It's up to the man.
> 
> Yes the man.
> 
> He wants sex, then it is for him to be the good man that by his own actions and behaviors, yes that HE OWNS and HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR, to demonstrate his dominance for the pleasure and delight of his woman.


What about all of those women who take no pleasure and delight in anyones' dominance, but find the whole thing utterly risible? And it's easy to get anyone to do something they're interested in. Getting them to do something they aren't actually bothered about - that's harder. 



> If he does not demonstrate this to her satisfaction, she WILL test him, fitness testing. Her striving to be dominated.


My wife never, ever, fitness tests. I had to look the term up when I came here, and even then, it made no sense because I'd never seen any examples. No-one dominates my wife - if you try, she'll pull your arm off and beat you with the wet end. I suppose women who lack confidence in themselves might "strive to be dominated" in order to confirm their view that they are inferior, and need someone to tell them what to do, but that's true of weak people of both sexes. But a real, strong (mentally) woman doesn't feel the need to abase herself to someone just because he has a c*ck in his trousers.


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just want to say here, he DOES attract the women. A few have been seriously gorgeous too. I tell him he is going to kick himself someday-for letting them slip through his fingers. I hold out hope for one that has wanted him for over 3 yrs. She is beautiful and her family loves him too.


Not a bad thing, imo, for him to be willing to wait for what he really wants. A very healthy sign.




> But NO, he has not been able to snag the 2 he seemed to have his heart set on. Got "friend zoned" twice- he has grown mightliy in confidence since #1, I think #2, although a christian girl wanted the "Bad boy" persona-cause her last boyfriend was rather rough....it just isn't my son.


Even for #2 being christian has not much to do with it, bad boys will always attract girls (and women) for simple reasons that it is good to understand for both men and women even at this forum.



> Don't you think this is going a little too far in disrespect !?? I can tell you my husband and son would NEVER NEVER NEVER do something like that !! They wouldn't even do that if someone paid them to do it.


Don't get too hung up on this. 

The point of my anecdote was to share how hypergamy works even as juveniles in high school, even to married people of 20 plus years.

And remember, the real disrespect would be to have behave sneakily behind someone's back. 

What I did, I did plain as day, not behind someone's back. 

I have never had a problem being honest. 



> .... I just read what you wrote here to my husband -he answers with a  look on his face..."if that other guy was BIG enough, he should clean his clock " then added he feels that was ignorant, that guy should have kicked the Sh** out of you & you would have deserved it. I know you are too confident to care what a nice guy thinks , ha ha


So quick to violence? Which one of us is the nice guy after all? :rofl:


It is not beneficial to get carried away with assumptions to distract the discussion. 

Consider that maybe her old boyfriend and I were already very well aquainted for many years, or that maybe I knew well enough of his own boastful indiscretions in the locker room, or maybe even that he had already crossed the line ONCE with me a year or so earlier.

ANd maybe I had so much respect for my future wife to show her in my own way she needn't put up with someone like that.  



> Urban Dictionary: hypergamy
> 
> I gotta be honest, seems like nothing more than an ago trip to me, but hey, if that is what works for most women, I guess you guys can knock yourselves out.


Urban Dictionary? Really? 

Hypergamy is the prime mover of a woman's sexual behavior.

You yourself, in how you so quickly defend (perceived) attacks to your husband's personality, if hypergamy was pretend then "so what" if there was even one man in the world to compare to your husband? 

But of course, your husband is beyond compare, exactly right as it should be. 




> Good list :smthumbup:


Good for dating, or marriage, or both?




> I like the way that is described, but I still think some women's drives are too low and it is less the man's fault, he would do fine with some other women lining up .
> 
> It is not all that black & white.


Barring medical conditions, a woman with low drive is mostly guaranteed to be with a man that is ignoring the concept of hypergamy, and therefore ignoring the structure of sexual attraction.

WIthout a doubt that is the FIRST place to start looking for what is missing.


----------



## BigBadWolf

zpac said:


> Always the mans fault huh?
> 
> These generic "it's the mans responesibility" replys are getting rather tiresome. EVERYTHING in a marriage seems to be the mans responsibility or fault.
> 
> It's the generic reply for EVERY marriage problem. It's never the wifes responsibility. Wifes can do no wrong .


THe power and responsibility men have to shape our own lives, few things are so neglected or overlooked.

This power is what attracts women to us, is what we look for to even define what "masculine" is.

If a woman's sexual power is provactive (which is it, literally to provoke both in very very good ways, and very very irritating ways), then understand what exactly is the woman driven sexually to "provoke"?

She is driven to provoke masculinity.

The male sexual power, masculinity, LITERALLY IS the ability to shape and form his own environment. 

This includes his goals, ambitions, career, hobby, and YES his relationship with the ones he loves.

Of course, wives and women are not perfect, they are human just like us.

But concerning sexual attraction, it is a futile exercise to require a woman to be attracted to a man that she is not.

This is asking for dishonesty, pure and simple. 

Creating, building, maintaining the structure of sexual attraction? 

That responsibility is squarely on the shoulder of the man, by the simple definition of masculinity.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Trenton said:


> This is advice for a man that wants to attract an ordinary woman (regardless of her attractive rating on a scale) and one that is looking for pomp and circumstance rather than something more true and valuable. Which is perfectly fine but not what I would be hoping for, for my sons.


Attracting those elusive Snowflakes, sport for only the most cunning of hunters.


----------



## AFEH

I think most women do pursue when they want a particular man and if they are in a relationship when they want sex. They have their own courting signals, it’s just that they’re exceptionally subtle. It’s a “covert directness” but unless the man knows the signals they’ll fly way over his head. The woman will give up after giving five or so signals if the man hasn’t noticed or responded. Although she may well try again at another opportunity. These female courting signals while often missed by men are rarely if ever missed by other women! There are a number of reasons women are far more subtle about these things than men. For example they don’t want to come across as being cheap or easy, they don’t want to be rejected, they can easily withdraw as needs be etc.

I think a lot of men knock on doors that are never going to open for them and walk on past open doors because they’re so blind they don’t even see them! And they spend so much time on the former. Like practicing chat up lines, gaming etc. When all they need do is be who they are and watch for the courting signals! Because for sure if those signals aren’t there the door will never open.

In a marriage I think it’s very different. And it’s even different at different stages of the marriage. For example when kids are young it’s very different to when they’ve grown and left home. I actually believe that it is very much on the man to keep ROMANCE alive through all the stages in the marriage. But still within a marriage the woman will give off those subtle courting signals and if the man doesn’t know them he’ll think his wife never approaches him for sex! When quite possibly she has been approaching him and has herself felt turned down.

But then there are women who just like men will make overt, direct advances. This has happened to me a few times the “I’d like to see what you’re like in bed”.


----------



## zpac

AFEH said:


> I think most women do pursue when they want a particular man and if they are in a relationship when they want sex. They have their own courting signals, it’s just that they’re exceptionally subtle.


pursue - definition of pursue by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

"To follow in an effort to overtake or capture; chase"
"to seek or strive to attain (some object, desire, etc.)"
"to follow persistently or seek to become acquainted with"

What you're describing is not pursuing per definition.




> But still within a marriage the woman will give off those subtle courting signals and if the man doesn’t know *them he’ll think his wife never approaches him for sex!* When quite possibly she has been approaching him and has herself felt turned down.


And rightly so because giving subtle signals is not approaching per definition.

approach - definition of approach by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

"An advance or overture made by one person to another."
"to make advances to, as with a proposal, suggestion, etc."

I don't see how giving subtle signals can possibly count as pursuing and approaching. It's absolutley ludicrous.


----------



## AFEH

zpac said:


> pursue - definition of pursue by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
> 
> "To follow in an effort to overtake or capture; chase"
> "to seek or strive to attain (some object, desire, etc.)"
> "to follow persistently or seek to become acquainted with"
> 
> What you're describing is not pursuing per definition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And rightly so because giving subtle signals is not approaching per definition.
> 
> approach - definition of approach by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
> 
> "An advance or overture made by one person to another."
> "to make advances to, as with a proposal, suggestion, etc."
> 
> I don't see how giving subtle signals can possibly count as pursuing and approaching. It's absolutley ludicrous.


I think you've a real crap tone.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> Consider that maybe her old boyfriend and I were already very well aquainted for many years, or that maybe I knew well enough of his own boastful indiscretions in the locker room, or maybe even that he had already crossed the line ONCE with me a year or so earlier. ANd maybe I had so much respect for my future wife to show her in my own way she needn't put up with someone like that


 OK, well this is a little bit more understood - now that you have explained it better, I will have to take your word for it ! 

.....But take this away from the conversation, had you acted like this --and the guy was just -in your hypergamic mind -lower than you, less social class/caste, but he treated her well and you still behaved like this....I would think VERY LOW of such a man. 


*Hypergamy *is a new word for me, Yes, I appreicate Urban Dictuionary , puts much in understandable form for someone uneducated like myself -the regular dictionary only says this ...."The practice of marrying into an equal or more prestigious social group or caste"-- that just isn't much to go on. Even at that, it seems to spew superiority. I am turned off my people who look at the world in those terms. Sorry, just being honest, I don't think the rich and famous is any better than myself. I do , however, put Gentlemanness & caring behavior, outside of financial status, as of much more importance. 


By these behaviors (again thinking if that wrestler boyfriend was NOT a Joker but a "decent" man), you may still HOOK the woman, but like Sawney says, what type is she - to be batting eyes & flipping hair to a bruiser who just humiliated her boyfriend. And these things SO happen- like that ... why you needed to clear up your story some cause that came off as very offensive. My husband simply has "righteous anger" - we all should. Things like THAT get under his skin more than anything -he was still going on about it afterwards, a little fired up, I kinda like to see him get mad & rant a bit, he doesn't do that much. I was enjoying that conversation. He likens that type of behavior to... men who walk into bars purposely trying to insite a fight -to prove who is TOP A-hole. 

Leadership ability is very attractive but so is some humilty & caring for the little guys, too much superiority is a huge turn off for me. I don't care how bold someone is, if they lack humility , they are LACKING -period. 

This Season of Survivor, if anyone is watching, now I realize this is a GAME & much of this is just 'playing" but I am absolutely DRAWN to COACH's Personality...he IS for that underdog- and I know this is what appeals to me, his humility before others AND compassion for the the outcasts among him, as he KNOWS from where they come & has openly expressed that...... COMBINED with his very obvious LEADERSHIP skills. The man is intelligence incarnate - so controlled, you don't get anything past him! He plays with such integrity but yet he has his motives! I simply adore him, how he has taken "nerd" Cochran under his wing, and putting up with Brandon's Big mouth with such calm. Cochran was so dehumanized by those others on his team , I was :rofl: with delight, practically cheering in my bed to see those Superier jokers brought to their knees. 

Coach>>







Cochran>>


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> SA,
> 
> Once he finds someone who blows his mind away, he will make his move.


 This is his attitude, yes. 



> I'm also a bit like that, I'm turned off by women who approach me (but not those who tease and seduce me! That's how women should approach men in my opinion!)


 Well, the circles he runs in, not too many "obvious" teasers & seducers -at least not in the literal -get in your face type, I sometimes joke with him about seeing how he might respond in that type of atmosphere..as he might likely fall. I hope he finds an aggressive one -cause I think he needs the "temptational" push .


----------



## AFEH

Even in the human world there are courtship rituals to determine a man’s “suitability”. Now, who initiates the courtship ritual in specific cases? Sometimes, unbeknown to the man, it can be the woman who initiates. Take my stbxw as an example. Before we’d “met”, as she walked past where I worked, her head would go down and she’d blush. Did she initiate our courtship ritual with her body language, or did I initiate it by asking her out? I’d say she initiated it by signalling that her door was open to me.


----------



## Enchantment

Happy Belated Birthday, SA! Hope you had a nice birthday yesterday. 

We certainly seem to see all sides on TAM. We have wives who pursue seemingly uninterested husbands, and husbands who pursue seemingly uninterested wives.

I think in a healthy relationship dynamic where both spouses are mostly emotionally healthy and each has a strong sense of self, there's likely a bit of that pursuit going on both ways (at least there is in my marriage). It's just that the definition of 'pursuit' may be different for the individuals involved, as some have eluded to. Some are more subtle about it than others.

People are sadly lacking in being educated about relationships and sexuality. Sadly, many people do not have good familial role models to look up to, and culturally/socially there is also a dearth of good role models. Therefore, people seem to 'default' to whatever floats their boat at the time.

But, marriage, especially long-term, requires some bit of work, albeit if you put in the work required the rewards can be tremendous and it doesn't always seem like work.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> .....But take this away from the conversation, had you acted like this --and the guy was just -in your hypergamic mind -lower than you, less social class/caste, but he treated her well and you still behaved like this....I would think VERY LOW of such a man.


Perspective is everything.

Had you been dating someone else, and your husband knew that you were the girl he wanted to spend the rest of his life with, would you have encouraged him to keep his mouth shut?

It's about being clear about what you want. Doesn't matter what it is. Success on the job, success in athletics, or getting the girl. Being assured, having direction, and confidence are not traits that most people find distasteful.

What they find distasteful is how they are expressed. Some folks go for the "Aw shucks ..." man who never falters and behaves with humility. Others may respond to the self-assured man who has no problem expressing his ego, bordering on the arrogant.

Both are still doing the same thing.

Even your husband at some point decided if he didn't step up, someone else was going to snatch you out from under him.

But ...

I do find your original question even more interesting.

I like women with an 'edge'. In some manner, all of the women that I have been highly attracted to expressed passion for something. 

The ex was very sexually aggressive while pursuing me. For a good long while there was plenty of uncertainty about our relationship, and during that period, the sex was absolutely off the hook. Honestly, there were times she was like a guy.

But ... once she knew she had me, EVERYTHING changed. But I was only able to recognize that by looking in the rearview mirror. I didn't see it that way at the time.

It's a pattern for her. Same thing happened with her boyfriend as well. While it was an affair ... it was steamy. Once he made it clear that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, it became something else.

She is distinctly NOT in tune with her sexuality. If anything her sexuality is sadly dysfunctional.

From my 'Nice Guy' perspective, I almost always waited for the woman I was interested in, to indicate that she was interested in me. In that regard, dating when I was young, revolved around letting the girl lead, and meant very little risk to my self esteem. I then simply catered to her lead as a well behaved young gentleman. First time I had sex? My girlfriend at the time suggested it, not me.

I don't much follow that model anymore. Not even close. But ... as a man, there are few things to me more arousing than a woman that knows she wants YOU, and she goes for it.

Had this happen to me in my last dating experience.


----------



## AFEH

Happy belated Birthday SA! Your son will probably marry an image of his mother. Now there’s a thing .


----------



## RandomDude

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is his attitude, yes.


LOL! Looks like your son has the same curse I have - the pretty boy curse :rofl:

Only problem = standards that can't be forfilled by the majority. With wifey she was never that "OOOO HOT BABE" that I just had to bone (though others have that view O.O). What she had was the quality deep inside with her personality that elevated her above the rest.

Your son just needs to find that person. You just have to encourage him to take opportunities to meet new people. 



> Well, the circles he runs in, not too many "obvious" teasers & seducers -at least not in the literal -get in your face type, I sometimes joke with him about seeing how he might respond in that type of atmosphere..as he might likely fall. I hope he finds an aggressive one -cause I think he needs the "temptational" push .


Aggressive and cunning... like wifey >.>
<.<

*looks over shoulder*
Heh... feminine wiles, incredibly dangerous - but VERY useful on your side. Like getting good work, or saving 15K on a new car lol :rofl:

A hell to handle though, but very useful!


----------



## Sawney Beane

SimplyAmorous said:


> .... I just read what you wrote here to my husband -he answers with a  look on his face..."if that other guy was BIG enough, he should clean his clock " then added he feels that was ignorant, that guy should have kicked the Sh** out of you & you would have deserved it. I know you are too confident to care what a nice guy thinks , ha ha


This would be a pretty common response, from a lot of men. My own view would have been that if the muscler-in was a bit too big, then to wait until his back was turned and start off with a good solid punch or two to his kidneys to even things up a bit

Having kicked f*ck out of him, the next thing a lot of men would do would be to kick the woman into touch, since she demonstrated by her actions that whilst she might be a textbook example of hypergamy, she has not the slightest idea about fidelity, integrity or even good manners.


----------



## Deejo

AFEH said:


> Happy belated Birthday SA! Your son will probably marry an image of his mother. Now there’s a thing .


All well behaved young men should be so lucky.


----------



## AFEH

Sawney Beane said:


> This would be a pretty common response, from a lot of men. My own view would have been that if the muscler-in was a bit too big, then to wait until his back was turned and start off with a good solid punch or two to his kidneys to even things up a bit
> 
> Having kicked f*ck out of him, the next thing a lot of men would do would be to kick the woman into touch, since she demonstrated by her actions that whilst she might be a textbook example of hypergamy, she has not the slightest idea about fidelity, integrity or even good manners.


Surely there’s no call here for that insulting stuff you write. Why on earth do you knock the good men here? I see time after time men thanking Conrad, BBW and others for their help. I have not seen one man here thanking you for your help in anything at all and still you continue to knock.


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf said:


> Attracting those elusive Snowflakes, sport for only the most cunning of hunters.


To you snowflakes do not exist and if you refuse to admit something so beautiful exists, you won't see them even if there are millions of them before your very eyes.


----------



## Enchantment

You know, SA, you put this in the Men's Clubhouse, but it might be interesting to brainstorm on what women can do to try and 'mature' in to their sexuality.

I admit that at 47 I probably have absolutely no idea what dating is like in this day and age (and if anything ever happened to my H I would likely decide to remain single forever after hearing all of the horror stories about dating).

But, way back when I was dating, it was mostly the 'good girl mantra' - and that didn't come so much from my parents as it did from my peers. Back then, you were considered *naughty words* if you did certain *naughty* things.

For me, the hard part has been that it's actually okay, and even preferred, to be able to do those *naughty* things after marriage when it wasn't so acceptable before. That does a number on your brain, you know? Nobody ever talks about what should happen after you marry. It's pretty hard to just drop all the baggage at the door and flip a switch and boom everythings good now!

I'm sure that I haven't shaken all of those good girl ideas out of my system, either. I don't know if I can as it seems to be deeply embedded. But, my H has been truly great about it - helping me, leading me, re-assuring me. Sometimes when you get that kind of reassurance from your partner, you can really start to flourish and start to shake those 'good girl' thoughts out of your head. 

I know that you had kind of a hormonal awakening and a religious, or rather, non-religious shift that helped you along.

Ironically, for me, it was both my husband's patience and understanding, and something of a religious awakening that did it for me. Yah, I know - we see all the time about repressed religious ladies, but that is so NOT what sex in marriage is meant to be. Reading and understanding something like the following actually really helped me: 

Marriage: God's Idea - Focus on the Family

God's Design for Sex - Focus on the Family

Funny how we were able to get to similar points in our lives by completely different means, eh?


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> Surely there’s no call here for that insulting stuff you write. Why on earth do you knock the good men here? I see time after time men thanking Conrad, BBW and others for their help. I have not seen one man here thanking you for your help in anything at all and still you continue to knock.


Why is pointing that BBW was lucky that he didn't get the sh*t kicked out of him insulting? Or pointing out that any woman who immediately drops the man she is with when someone elses elbows his way in lacks loyalty, fidelty and good manners? It worked for him, but let's not pretend what happened to him was the only possible outcome. Lots of people have tried that approach, and found that no matter how alpha you are, if someone has mashed your face so you look like a pizza, your success rate goes down.

It's not an insult, it's a fact, and if anyone wants to try BBW's approach, it's only fair to warn them of the potential consequences.


----------



## nice777guy

At this point - I fully expect that I will have to put myself out there and be aggressive if I want to be successful at finding another mate. (Whether I want to is a whole other discussion!)

BUT - if a woman were to pursue me - she would certainly have my attention. I can't imagine being put-off by an aggressive woman. Unless she was very immature (or married) - I would be very flattered to be pursued.

Honestly - I would think that for both sexes - if someone really makes you feel alive - grab ahold and enjoy the ride!


----------



## Trenton

Enchantment said:


> You know, SA, you put this in the Men's Clubhouse, but it might be interesting to brainstorm on what women can do to try and 'mature' in to their sexuality.
> 
> I admit that at 47 I probably have absolutely no idea what dating is like in this day and age (and if anything ever happened to my H I would likely decide to remain single forever after hearing all of the horror stories about dating).
> 
> But, way back when I was dating, it was mostly the 'good girl mantra' - and that didn't come so much from my parents as it did from my peers. Back then, you were considered *naughty words* if you did certain *naughty* things.
> 
> For me, the hard part has been that it's actually okay, and even preferred, to be able to do those *naughty* things after marriage when it wasn't so acceptable before. That does a number on your brain, you know? Nobody ever talks about what should happen after you marry. It's pretty hard to just drop all the baggage at the door and flip a switch and boom everythings good now!
> 
> I'm sure that I haven't shaken all of those good girl ideas out of my system, either. I don't know if I can as it seems to be deeply embedded. But, my H has been truly great about it - helping me, leading me, re-assuring me. Sometimes when you get that kind of reassurance from your partner, you can really start to flourish and start to shake those 'good girl' thoughts out of your head.
> 
> I know that you had kind of a hormonal awakening and a religious, or rather, non-religious shift that helped you along.
> 
> Ironically, for me, it was both my husband's patience and understanding, and something of a religious awakening that did it for me. Yah, I know - we see all the time about repressed religious ladies, but that is so NOT what sex in marriage is meant to be. Reading and understanding something like the following actually really helped me:
> 
> Marriage: God's Idea - Focus on the Family
> 
> God's Design for Sex - Focus on the Family
> 
> Funny how we were able to get to similar points in our lives by completely different means, eh?


I like this idea too and appreciate SA's voice very much because of her honesty and sharing of her experiences. 

I'm 37 but being married 15 years and still being slightly uncomfortable in my own skin is disappointing and scary to me. I think having women speak about this really would help many because it's true...there's not much out there and Cosmo isn't covering it but neither is Good Housekeeping. 

Someone on this thread touched upon women wanting to be dominated in an effort to confirm their own view that they deserve such treatment. In thinking about this, it makes sense to me. Women's sexuality is complicated and made more so by the mixed messages we receive as women.

Living life comfortable in your sexuality and in your own skin is truly a gift to yourself. It's hard to be honest enough with yourself to admit you're not comfortable or that some of your behaviors may very well be linked to beliefs picked up along the way. I've always been at the admitting part but stuck there. 

I'd love to hear some suggestions on how to get comfortable with yourself as a woman.


----------



## nice777guy

Sawney Beane said:


> Why is pointing that BBW was lucky that he didn't get the sh*t kicked out of him insulting? Or pointing out that any woman who immediately drops the man she is with when someone elses elbows his way in lacks loyalty, fidelty and good manners? It worked for him, but let's not pretend what happened to him was the only possible outcome. Lots of people have tried that approach, and found that no matter how alpha you are, if someone has mashed your face so you look like a pizza, your success rate goes down.
> 
> It's not an insult, it's a fact, and if anyone wants to try BBW's approach, it's only fair to warn them of the potential consequences.


I kind of liked BBWs story. Its not the "jock" that's the alpha - but the confident, articulate young man who isn't afraid to express himself and goes after what he wants. He was - after all - talking about high school. Not quite the same as going after another man's wife.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> Happy belated Birthday SA! Your son will probably marry an image of his mother. Now there’s a thing .


Yeah, that would be a *THING *alright. Not sure that would be so good if she is the way I USED to be, that would have me worried ! There is hope for us all, isn't there. 

HIS highest hopes is for a musically inclined hottie to come his way . His 1st falling was for the girl who sang & played lead guitar for his Youth Group- he developed such a CRUSH on her, likely wanted to impress her.... he picked up the guitar & taught himself ! He might not have snagged the girl but his learning that guitar fueled his PASSION for music ministry, this consumes him today. Huge confidence builder -he so needed that!! So not all was lost from that rejection. He was more an awkward BOY when he liked her -he has come so far, even replacing her the following year as Worship Leader- but she was gone. 

Second girl he wanted has a CD out, he sang with her for a time, But still friend Zoned. He really desires a singer, that seems to trip his triggers ---cause it is so much a part of HIS life , his passion. 



nice777guy said:


> I kind of liked BBWs story. Its not the "jock" that's the alpha - but the confident, articulate young man who isn't afraid to express himself and goes after what he wants. He was - after all - talking about high school. Not quite the same as going after another man's wife.


At the orginal reading, I felt well, they weren't married, so why not- a little rude but I was not totally outraged.... it was when I read it to my husband & heard his reaction I took a double take. 

Believe you me..... I LOVE assertive people, oh goodness, to have conversations with the "open minded" who SAY what they mean & mean what they say- not hiding who they are-as to not offend if they disagree , who enjoy a hearty debate, a little mental challenge- or a big one, all the better! Even to tell me -to my face -what for - I RESPECT that ! A joy to me, don't hold back. I don't think most people are used to that. They recoil -or become intimidated.... speaking of which.... 

Just today, we ate out at a Brewrey with our son & his roommate -Big day he sipped his 1st beer! I think the waitress found him a little strange asking what he should try, his 1st taste. He didn't even finish it & gave it to dad. 

Anyway... Me & his roommate, another fine Christian young man, a writer, articulate, thinker.... From early on, we just HIT IT OFF.... he picks my brain, I pick his- anytime we visit -it is a given, much about beliefs -we have argued about Luther, Calvanism, talked about women, just LIFE, his experiences, very very open, he tells us the craziest stories in his witnessing adventures. Son is right there with us interjecting. Husband just listens- in amusement. 

This young man is pretty assertive , no trouble holding his own in his views, haven't seen him in awhile.....today he admitted to me - when we 1st started coming around, I intimidated him a little. REALLY! I have been called many things in my time, he had an original a year ago, told me I was "Bombastic" Urban Dictionary: bombastic I was never sure how to take that comment, whether it was meant in a good way or a bad way-but it was said with a smile anyway .  hmmm My son says about all this... (this was cute)... "Mom, you are like Beer, people have to acquire a taste for you" . 

I guess he is not intimidated anymore -it was just at the beginnning. Not so sure that is a good thing. I guess I can be a little "too bold" at times, so I can hardly judge BBW , now can I .....

The fact he knew the guy, his lockerroom antics, he was not treating this girl respectfully enough, he could use someone showing him up, kinda like the better guy (I want to believe in BBW's case) stepping up and winning the girl -in a bad boy type way ...this is the type of exhilerating endings you see in movies. I definitely eat those up !


----------



## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> ...this is the type of exhilerating endings you see in movies. I definitely eat those up !


And that's what Men WANT to be able to do. We don't want to just be Mr. Good Enough. We WANT to be Clint Eastwood, Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, etc.

And who's to say that even if the jock had started something physical, that BBW - or some other young man - wouldn't have handled that part just fine as well?

I think I'm also reading something into the story about marriage. What do you do if some other man - confident, great, a slimeball - whatever - is trying to take your wife away? I still think the best answer lies somewhere in being the best man that you can be. If you show your wife love, give her attention and affection - she won't WANT to walk away with some fast-talking, confident guy.

So - SA - is your son's roommate FLIRTING with you???


----------



## RandomDude

> HIS highest hopes is for a musically inclined hottie to come his way . His 1st falling was for the girl who sang & played lead guitar for his Youth Group- he developed such a CRUSH on her, likely wanted to impress her.... he picked up the guitar & taught himself ! He might not have snagged the girl but his learning that guitar fueled his PASSION for music ministry, this consumes him today. Huge confidence builder -he so needed that!! So not all was lost from that rejection. He was more an awkward BOY when he liked her -he has come so far, even replacing her the following year as Worship Leader- but she was gone.
> 
> Second girl he wanted has a CD out, he sang with her for a time, But still friend Zoned. He really desires a singer, that seems to trip his triggers ---cause it is so much a part of HIS life , his passion.


Looks like his button is very clear and ready to be pushed. Still, how does he get friend zoned? He's a pretty boy, he should be friend zoning them... or unless he's rather awkward when dealing with the girls he likes.

Then again, when I first met my wife I guess it's different from a typical boy meets girl scenario. We both friend zoned each other because I already had a girlfriend. But we became so darn close, we talked about everything, and felt so comfortable around each other and had a lot of fun. There was the initial spark but neither of us allowed it to manifest (for a YEAR)

The funny thing is that we would probably have remained friends if it wasn't for everyone trying to break up our close friendship -> their attempts to break us up ended up bringing us closer together. And I was shocked to find out she can hold her game with me when it came to flirting, combining that with her attitude, seductive posture and confidence, our relationship as best friends... and everyone telling us that each other is "forbidden fruit"... I knew in my heart she is to be my life partner. I was in an EA.

When I fantasied about making love to her during the long year of friendship it was different from other fantasies; sex was just sex to me but with her I felt like showing my love for her through intense pleasure. It's a strange feeling of purpose and belonging.

But even after a year of friendship, and after I broke up with my ex for my best friend. She actually backed off from me (clever)... she knew that during this period she may even end up as my rebound so she protected herself. But this was the crunch time, I had the shot, I either score or I miss and I wouldn't get the same opportunity twice. I played it very cool however, a straight out assault will make her run, I countered her insistence for space out of fear by using our year long friendship as an excuse to keep spending time together. In other words; I cornered her so she wouldn't go anywhere. That was the first step.

I trusted my gut to gauge her desire, everytime. I wanted to keep it steady, not lost, but not raised so fast enough to scare her away. I knew she wanted me all along, we never initially wanted anything to happen between us but hey... fate is funny. Still, she put up quite a bit of a front and we had boundaries.

Using our friendship to full advantage I played dumb, played cool, played smart, played all sorts of games to get her to loosen up. At first she was afraid of even holding me and I knew why, but the same time she didn't want to reject a simple hug from me as friends. She was trapped, and I found it so cute the way her heart beat so fast and then pulled herself away knowing I felt it. Yet she still put on the front. The friendly kiss and snuggling got more and more, and the touching... to the point it became a game. She played forbidden, so I did too. I teased her, gave her something then pulled it away, as she did the same to me - I actually learnt from her.

The flirting and touching became more intense but we still considered each other "friends", she put her legs on me, I stroked her inner thighs, I rubbed against her neck, she embraced my warmth with her hands. This carried on for a few months. Until I knew she couldn't resist me anymore, and trusting my gut, taking her subconscious signals she gave me with her eyes, body, speech, I kissed her. And hell she had it pent up for so long too.

Then we started playing a new game... I pull back, she comes forward. She pulls back, I flank her and catch her. I wasn't going to let her go. We were in love... but then she... nevermind, no need to get into how it started to go all wrong.

But anyways, as you can see it's not bad at all being "friend-zoned", he still has a chance, he just needs to step up on the game. But all of what I did I didn't learn out of book or even prior experience. I simply followed my heart, my gut, and even learnt her tricks of the trade - to use that against her to seduce her.

Love will do that.


----------



## Runs like Dog

We have a game. Archery. You stand over there with an apple on your head.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> And who's to say that even if the jock had started something physical, that BBW - or some other young man - wouldn't have handled that part just fine as well?


 Men will be Men, won't they. As for me, I wouldn't want to risk bodily injury to anyone I care about, I think talking to the girl at some other time -when he was not around might be better, but BBW said that would be dishonest. I don't mind using the mouth but physical fights are not cool. But I always tell me sons if someone else throws the 1st punch, I WANT them too give it back, not coward away -if they are being bullied. Even if they get thrown out of school, I will have their back. BUt NEVER to *start *a physical fight ....but I would be proud if they jumped in to save someone else -if the situation called for it. 

Why create extra drama, I don't know, I am not a Guy.



> I think I'm also reading something into the story about marriage. What do you do if some other man - confident, great, a slimeball - whatever - is trying to take your wife away? I still think the best answer lies somewhere in being the best man that you can be. If you show your wife love, give her attention and affection - she won't WANT to walk away with some fast-talking, confident guy.


 If she wants to be lured, she will darn well be lured anyway and hide it. Why I am against all secrets in marraige, too much of a slippery slope if the opposite sex is involved -and attraction is there. 

Yes -be the BEST man you can be so she is ever thankful for what she has at home. I love alot of attention and affection, IF it was lacking at home, I would be weaker, I know ME and I know it would be true. So yeah, those things work well for me. 



> So - SA - is your son's roommate FLIRTING with you???


Flirting -NO, this guy is very gentlemen like, his heart is so on fire for God, women are not his concern, we are taking about another redeemed Virgin here -waiting till marraige. We did discuss how he gets irritated with women today, my son saying how he rants about them sometimes cause so many seem to not value or NEED men today, he is old fashioned and feels much of the feminist movement has HURT our men. I was right with him, one of our subjects today. 

I think he gets a charge out of telling me some of his experiences though .....that may seem very ODD to open up with to a roommates mom .....saying to me... "Mrs_____ You would appreciate this".... .. he once picked up a girl who was thumbing, she gets in the car, he asks where she wants to go , silence, asks again, more silence, but with a smile, he suddenly realized she didn't want dropped off - but a different kind of RIDE entirely -- Oh did I start :rofl: just knowing what kind of guy he is -she sure thumbed the wrong dude that day! So he takes the opportunity to witness to her & lets her know he is waiting for marriage. Would have loved to see her face. 

When we sat down today, my son said something to allude to his having "missed" some of our chats (we haven't visited in months)- I sensed a little embarrassment there, he even admitted he did. It is very obvious I like to talk to him also, I have complimented him a # of times, he is a very honorable man, I am so impressed -and humble, he admits his faults. I just think ALOT of him. Very few like him. My son is another. I am totally genuine in what I say . He is a little less than half my age. If any subtle anything is happening, it is totally totally harmless, this is for sure, with the son & husband, sometimes more kids right there.


----------



## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> Men will be Men, won't they. As for me, I wouldn't want to risk bodily injury to anyone I care about, I think talking to the girl at some other time -when he was not around might be better, but BBW said that would be dishonest. I don't mind using the mouth but physical fights are not cool. But I always tell me sons if someone else throws the 1st punch, I WANT them too give it back, not coward away -if they are being bullied. Even if they get thrown out of school, I will have their back. BUt NEVER to *start *a physical fight ....but I would be proud if they jumped in to save someone else -if the situation called for it.
> 
> Why create extra drama, I don't know, I am not a Guy.
> 
> If she wants to be lured, she will darn well be lured anyway and hide it. Why I am against all secrets in marraige, too much of a slippery slope if the opposite sex is involved -and attraction is there.
> 
> Yes -be the BEST man you can be so she is ever thankful for what she has at home. I love alot of attention and affection, IF it was lacking at home, I would be weaker, I know ME and I know it would be true. So yeah, those things work well for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Flirting -NO, this guy is very gentlemen like, his heart is so on fire for God, women are not his concern, we are taking about another redeemed Virgin here -waiting till marraige. We did discuss how he gets irritated with women today, my son saying how he rants about them sometimes cause so many seem to not value or NEED men today, he is old fashioned and feels much of the feminist movement has HURT our men. I was right with him, one of our subjects today.
> 
> I think he gets a charge out of telling me some of his experiences though .....that may seem very ODD to open up with to a roommates mom .....saying to me... "Mrs_____ You would appreciate this".... .. he once picked up a girl who was thumbing, she gets in the car, he asks where she wants to go , silence, asks again, more silence, but with a smile, he suddenly realized she didn't want dropped off - but a different kind of RIDE entirely -- Oh did I start :rofl: just knowing what kind of guy he is -she sure thumbed the wrong dude that day! So he takes the opportunity to witness to her & lets her know he is waiting for marriage. Would have loved to see her face.
> 
> When we sat down today, my son said something to allude to his having "missed" some of our chats (we haven't visited in months)- I sensed a little embarrassment there, he even admitted he did. It is very obvious I like to talk to him also, I have complimented him a # of times, he is a very honorable man, I am so impressed -and humble, he admits his faults. I just think ALOT of him. Very few like him. My son is another. I am totally genuine in what I say . He is a little less than half my age. If any subtle anything is happening, it is totally totally harmless, this is for sure, with the son & husband, sometimes more kids right there.


:smthumbup:


----------



## greenpearl

Hi SA,

I am not posting often now, but find your thread interesting. 

I have always been a pursuer. I wasn't a shy girl, and now I am not a shy woman. When I see something I like, I go and take it. A lot of old members think I am a submissive woman and a woman who has no brain, little do they know about me. 

I asked my husband for his number, I asked him out, I lured him into my bedroom, I asked him to marry me. Because I know he is the man I like and want. 

In the bedroom, I ask him for sex at anytime I want to. I jump on him at anytime I feel like to. The wonderful thing is that my husband always has the energy to accommodate me, no matter it is once a day or three times a day.

The book I am reading now actually suggests women to be proactive when they see good men. Don't wait for the men to approach you. Some men are just shy, they are not the pursuers, but they are good men. My husband is one of them. He and I are a good match. Because he wasn't very confident on his charm and I am very confident of myself. 

People usually care too much about what other people think of them. They can't be independent of themselves. Their thinking is not independent.


----------



## nice777guy

greenpearl said:


> Hi SA,
> 
> I am not posting often now, but find your thread interesting.
> 
> I have always been a pursuer. I wasn't a shy girl, and now I am not a shy woman. When I see something I like, I go and take it. A lot of old members think I am a submissive woman and a woman who has no brain, little do they know about me.
> 
> I asked my husband for his number, I asked him out, I lured him into my bedroom, I asked him to marry me. Because I know he is the man I like and want.
> 
> In the bedroom, I ask him for sex at anytime I want to. I jump on him at anytime I feel like to. The wonderful thing is that my husband always has the energy to accommodate me, no matter it is once a day or three times a day.
> 
> The book I am reading now actually suggests women to be proactive when they see good men. Don't wait for the men to approach you. Some men are just shy, they are not the pursuers, but they are good men. My husband is one of them. He and I are a good match. Because he wasn't very confident on his charm and I am very confident of myself.
> 
> People usually care too much about what other people think of them. They can't be independent of themselves. Their thinking is not independent.


:smthumbup:

If you see someone that excites you - GO!

(or - I could be totally wrong...)


----------



## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> I asked my husband for his number, I asked him out, I lured him into my bedroom, I asked him to marry me. Because I know he is the man I like and want.
> 
> The book I am reading now actually suggests women to be proactive when they see good men. Don't wait for the men to approach you. Some men are just shy, they are not the pursuers, but they are good men. My husband is one of them. He and I are a good match. Because he wasn't very confident on his charm and I am very confident of myself.
> 
> People usually care too much about what other people think of them. They can't be independent of themselves. Their thinking is not independent.


Thank you Green Pearl, glad you chimed in here.  I had NO idea you was THAT much of a pursuer to get your husband. See , it doesn't really matter. You are one who comes here with much enthusiam about your marraige, a success story. 

I am a little different, maybe it is an insecurity in me -but I think it would have bothered me some if I pursued. Like I may question down the road...did he really want me ?? I'd likely work it up in my mind some. I tend to do things like that. Maybe an insecurity in me . I want to KNOW I was wanted and badly, ha ha ...maybe I am just vain. If I found myself single, I would not pursue a guy, I would TALK, I am Good at that but he would have to come after me or I would keep talking elsewhere till one showed real interest. I am weird this way, it is an inbedded Need I would want fullfilled I think. 

But ignore me- we are all different & that is OK - probably just speaks that YOU are more secure than I am in this area. 


My husband is MUCH like yours in what you describe, and he accually * DID *put himself out there for me- and very quickly (within a week of meeting)- I DO kinda revel in that -simply cause I know it was not really an easy thing for him -one who only did it 2 other times total. In fact, it makes me laugh, he was So UNCONFIDENT that he braced himself for the "no' - his mindset was ..."Well I need to just get it over with", can you imagine! I know it sounds bad, but it is the truth of where he was. 

I can really laugh about this - I find it very very sweet- his heart was there. Some women may feel -what an idiot, he has no confidence, ewwwhhh who would want him, well ya know, who was I to not give the nice guy a shot. I am glad I didn't have my nose in the air. Or think I "deserved" better. We were 2 messed up souls that made each others lives take on new meaning & everything around us faded.

I believe in being respectfully submissive to our husbands-if they treat us with love & respect & have our best interests at heart of coarse. Mine , at least, often knows better than me. I have kicked myself a # of times he warned me to not do something -but I was stubborn -(lost $$, got called into court, got a speeding ticket) -He is not afraid to tell me...I told you so after the fact ...and I don't blame him!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Enchantment said:


> *For me, the hard part has been that it's actually okay, and even preferred, to be able to do those *naughty* things after marriage when it wasn't so acceptable before. That does a number on your brain, you know? *Nobody ever talks about what should happen after you marry. It's pretty hard to just drop all the baggage at the door and flip a switch and boom everythings good now!


 So many women describe this the very same way, that switch was STUCK for me too. I had so much guilt over us touching before marraige when the standard was higher/purer , this wasn't helping me either, and if we didn't touch, I would have felt God was a complete & utter Kill Joy , even a Monster for sending all fornicators to Hell. For me, sorry, the crime was not worth that --at all. My conscience accually warred against my beliefs to some extent, as I never wanted to believe GOd was that nasty, I don't think deep deep I did -but I tried to hang on to what I was being taught in the church pew. 

 So we touched and I convinced myself -without intercourse, we would still go to heaven if we was in a car accident. Now with all this baggage going on in my head -reevaluating, trying to find some pleasurable "Peace" , surely you could see how it could SUCK the enjoyment out of some of this. We would get overwhelmed , hot & heavy, touch ourselves to orgasm -then I would feel bad afterwards, ashamed. Oh well, merry go round-it became a part of our lives. 

How about this ...a guy friend of ours told us... he met this great lady, she is a christian, but something she did bugged him, he goes on to say ..they would have sex, then he would hear her praying for forgiveness in the bathroom afterwards , I guess he brought it up to her, she wanted him to pray with her, he told her he doesn't want to pray because he isn't sorry ! Now there you go ...Being SINGLE and being a CHRISTIAN who has a real sex drive and wants emotioanal closeness, look at what they are facing ....


My mind was terribly divided back then- which allowed the repression to continue on ... loved sex, felt guilty, wanted pleasure/ too embarrassed to express it - always told in church to put our "flesh down". I don't doubt I personally focused on some of this more than others might have. 

How do we associate a christian woman using seduction, rent a Porn video on lap dancing .....now we are going to the world, is that OK after our marraige ?

The questions are endless. I want to believe GOD, our Creator has MORE GRACE in these things than we will EVER hear in church, because ONLY that makes sense to me. 



> I'm sure that I haven't shaken all of those good girl ideas out of my system, either. I don't know if I can as it seems to be deeply embedded.


 To even call attention to it -is the 1st step. it is so darn embedded that noone even considers it can be changed...but they *can *become a new woman with seductive freedom- if they set their minds and hearts to it. I firmly believe. 



> But, my H has been truly great about it - helping me, leading me, re-assuring me. Sometimes when you get that kind of reassurance from your partner, you can really start to flourish and start to shake those 'good girl' thoughts out of your head.


 I am terribly convinced it is easier for men to NOT have these hangs up -because of their intense sexual desire, they are feeling it so strongly, NOTHING can deter them from acting on it -like a moth to a flame, a magnent to steel. Their bodies are infiltrated with NEED - BUt this leads them to PORN also , they have an insatiable desire to look upon the curves of women - *I think it is way easier to forget holiness under this sexual spell*, I can tell you, it is so much of a force, you almost know GOD had to instill some of this within you or he is absolutely cruel to do this and not have an outlet, or for that matter, an enjoyment for using that outlet....... Instead of concentrating on a "chair", I accually read this on a christian site -better to do this while you masterbate than LUST over a woman in your head. 


I would not believe one man who said he did this - and if he did, he surely wouldn't be very creative in bed once he got married - my heavens! Let a man dream of a woman in his mind. So what ! 

See, I must cherry pick scripture to have anything to do with it. Or I am back where I started -a merry go round of guilt /shame/ repentance, God is an Oger. Especially over those LUST scriptures. 



> I know that you had kind of a hormonal awakening and a religious, or rather, non-religious shift that helped you along.


 Had I remained religious -it would have NOT been a joy to come to this place , it would have been a horrendous divide on what I wanted to feist my eyes on, what was going through my mind, I would have probably convinced myself I was possessed! Just kidding but maybe not ! Without the religious, I might use "addiction" instead. What is very telling is...when the drive lessoned, so did the Excitement to watch porn, --- a definite connection there in deed. With my own personal experience. But seriously, it would have sucked the life out of my enjoyment--again. That is how I feel. 



> Marriage: God's Idea - Focus on the Family
> 
> God's Design for Sex - Focus on the Family


 I used to have books by Dobson, Used to listen to his radio program, get his magazine. My religious issues go way beyond sex. But that is another "book". 



> Funny how we were able to get to similar points in our lives by completely different means, eh?


 We all have to march to our own Drummer in life , what works for us personally-for our families, for our marraiges. 

MY son complimented me on my birthday in a rather strange way, beings he is a Christian himself & would like me to find Jesus again - he said that me being the WAY I AM NOW (Deistic views -Golden rule sums it up) and encouraging him to THINK -use his reason - makes me a BETTER Mom than any Christian Mom could have ever done for him, he feels too many are not encouraged to THINK -just believe. (His words, not mine)

But I'll accept that.


----------



## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> MY son complimented me on my birthday in a rather strange way, beings he is a Christian himself & would like me to find Jesus again - he said that me being the WAY I AM NOW (Deistic views -Golden rule sums it up) and encouraging him to THINK -use his reason - makes me a BETTER Mom than any Christian Mom could have ever done for him, he feels too many are not encouraged to THINK -just believe. (His words, not mine)
> 
> But I'll accept that.


I think that's a very valid compliment and it's smart of your son to appreciate that. 

I appreciate the Bible a lot and there is a lot of wisdom in it, but Christianity only thinks that they are right and they refuse to open their eyes to other religion, that's something I don't agree with. 

If I hadn't stop going to witness meetings, I wouldn't have been able to indulge myself in other religions' wisdom, I wouldn't have been able to achieve a better understanding about human and life. I would still be confused and lost. 

SA, BE PROUD OF YOURSELVES!


----------



## Janie

SA - how is your son's religion so extreme/different from your own? He's only 21? I'm intrigued...

Trenton - how to get the message out to women? I have put lots of thought into this and still don't have the answer. I've considered having small 'classes' with women to talk about their sexuality - with the goal being each woman connect with her inner temptress. (I firmly believe every woman has a Venus within!) The art of seduction. Even seductive dance. It is natural for women - and most women WANT TO PLAY THE ROLE!! They just lack the confidence. Allow the titters, but get past them. Tap into the real power of female sexuality. And learn to give/receive pleasure from it. What a rush that would be!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Janie

I didn't read every post here - damn this thread got long while I was busy doing other things!! But, from the scanning I've done, seems most will agree female sexual repression stems from things we've learned/experienced in our youth.

So, here's my question. What do you teach your daughters?

I am fully in favor of a woman being confident in her sexuality. Yet, I have THREE GORGEOUS DAUGHTERS!!! (My oldest - 24 - already has a child, so I'm mostly thinking of my 15 & 14 year old daughters.)

I warn my daughters about boys. I have explained about the treasure they have and that the boys they encounter want that treasure. Given too easily, treasure will be treated like trash. They are the gatekeepers.

But, not only that!! They need to be careful even the vibes they send off. It's not fair. Girls have raging hormones too! 

I am teaching my daughters to repress their sexuality and act semi-prudish -- for their own safety!! 

I just think puberty should be delayed til age 25. Problem solved.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Janie, 

whilst I understand the rationale for what you are doing, do you not see the disconnect between:


Janie said:


> I am teaching my daughters to repress their sexuality and act semi-prudish -- for their own safety!!


and


Janie said:


> Trenton - how to get the message out to women? I have put lots of thought into this and still don't have the answer. I've considered having small 'classes' with women to talk about their sexuality - with the goal being each woman connect with her inner temptress. (I firmly believe every woman has a Venus within!) The art of seduction. Even seductive dance. It is natural for women - and most women WANT TO PLAY THE ROLE!! They just lack the confidence.


----------



## Janie

Sawney Beane said:


> Janie,
> 
> whilst I understand the rationale for what you are doing, do you not see the disconnect between:
> 
> and


Of course!! Exactly what I'm illustrating.

I want my daughters to be sexually healthy, aware and connected, but more than that I want them SAFE!!

How to raise a daughter with a healthy sexuality???

I don't know.


----------



## Janie

Another factor to consider is the innate bewilderment of how male 'junk' works!! Trust me, women have no idea what to do with 'it'!! The only way to learn is through reading and/or experimentation combined with large amounts of communication. 

Most women (and many men) are uncomfortable talking about sex. Using only non-verbal communication is a difficult way to figure it out. So, we give up.

On the other hand, what if a woman knew how to please HER man? What if she has an entire bag of tricks guaranteed to give him pleasure (regardless of her current libido)? What if she OWNED 'it'? (And trust me 'it' is grateful... win-win.)

I think it would make a big difference in the bedroom.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Janie said:


> Of course!! Exactly what I'm illustrating.
> 
> I want my daughters to be sexually healthy, aware and connected, but more than that I want them SAFE!!
> 
> How to raise a daughter with a healthy sexuality???


 This truly IS a hell of a question isn't it? And we surely DON'T want them just sleeping with everyone they "feel" they love, as love is fickle without the commitment, so much easier to throw away. 

OH my goodness Janie, do I ever think like you! I also feel they are the GATEKEEPERS, it is a treasure, Girls MUST be educated about men's insatiable LUST in puberty- and beyond and yeah, deal with themselves too! How men will say ANYTHING in the heat of the moment to get into their pants, my own Dad would tell my Mom he was DYING . They marreid TOO young & it was a horrendous mistake -my Grandmother blowing up about them sleeping together, and he probably would have left her without sex, a mess, so they marreid too quick to appease the "MORAL" but they were NOT right for each other . This is not the answer either, even though the Bible tells you .... better to marry than Burn. 




> I've considered having small 'classes' with women to talk about their sexuality - with the goal being each woman connect with her inner temptress. (I firmly believe every woman has a Venus within!) The art of seduction. Even seductive dance. It is natural for women - and most women WANT TO PLAY THE ROLE!! They just lack the confidence. Allow the titters, but get past them. Tap into the real power of female sexuality. And learn to give/receive pleasure from it. What a rush that would be


 Absolutely LOVE this, I so wish I was younger to feel more excited about playing such a role- I say this only BECAUSE my husbands LUST was raging MORE THEN in comparison to now, so it would have so much more FUN. 
So very many younger women could benefit from something like this. 



> SA - how is your son's religion so extreme/different from your own? He's only 21? I'm intrigued...


 Me & husband has been going to a particular church since he was about 1, off & on ...when we 1st started , I got REALLY into it, going 3 times a week, but still I was always chasing some damn spiritual plateau, that I could never attain anyway. Many spoke in tongues, some danced in the isles, I felt they were better than me. Bla bla bla. Why do us women always compare, I even did it in religion. What a mind trip. 

LOVED the "teaching" aspect of this Paster, very OPEN . I kid you not, our very 1st visit there, , he spoke on being healed of Hemrooids & how he had a Pornography addiction & God healed him of both, and I thought to myself "darn, this Paster is cool -talking about sex & his A-hole at the same time, never expected that!" How could you not be intigrued! . ...and the music was like going to a Rock concert, the people so friendly, I was sucked in... husband could take it or leave it -but he was always by my side . But slowly, ever so slowly, I started to see how the majority of them SEPARATE the world and themselves in a very *extreme *way. Not all of coarse, I enjoyed the more liberal ones and picked the minds of the more extreme -when I had opportunity. 

This is what I call a Holiness Church, they almost appear to WORSHIP scripture, the WORD is power, life, the answer, if you deviate from that, you are opening yourself up to discipline from God & to be confronted by your sisters & brothers in the church. Even if you speak negatively, it may come "upon you". Now I felt this was rather rediculous from the start but I remained. I would go the Bible studies & bring up many difficult questions. BUt yet, I was never fully satisfied with the answers given, it warred with my mind more -which caused more questions! I should have just been having more sex with my husband instead of trying to figure God out, another hinderance to my marraige back then, always reading religious books. 

But yet, I LIKED the people , they were good people, I made friends, and I still ......loved the music . Later in life went back to this church -more because I missed the atmosphere /seeing those friends every week ...and my son just found his place in that Youth Group (VERY FUN, do MANY THINGS) , he found his nitch I guess, he was shy in school, although a great kid, kinda awkward and just like his father, not much of a mean bone in his body, didn't appreciate the idiots in school, had friends but they were more idiot prone than what he was comfortable with. By then I was on christian forums questioning so many things, I even got banned for bringing certain things up - I was slowly loosing my religion. I was open about it every step of the way. 

His youth paster encouraged him to sing, helped him with the guitar , MANY good things came out of us going there, for this I am VERY VERY THANKFUL. Wonderful friends, good attitude, my son is ALWAYS happy, (not a put on either), I have had people stop me in the church who hardly knew me to tell me how he inspires them. Much of this was the church's influence , I will never deny that. BUt I have joked with him & told him...if he turns into a Fundamentalist, I will throw him out of the house. He just laughs. 

But do I think they take morality too far, yes I do, Homeschooling is very much encouraged, they feel we need to separate (my son is terribly against this -I feel similar -as what good does that do to take all the moral kids out of school -how can that influence?) , they feel it's wrong to listen to any secular rock music, they teach "courting". I could go on and on. My son is against watching R rated movies also, I can see that, but some of them have a powerful message - I have encouraged him to sit down & watch a few I felt he could learn from. He listens to me. Hasn't corrupted him yet ! He argues with me too -but this is good! I want that.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Janie said:


> Another factor to consider is the innate bewilderment of how male 'junk' works!! Trust me, women have no idea what to do with 'it'!! The only way to learn is through reading and/or experimentation combined with large amounts of communication.
> 
> Most women (and many men) are uncomfortable talking about sex. Using only non-verbal communication is a difficult way to figure it out. So, we give up.


*STORY OF OUR MARRIAGE RIGHT THERE -19 yrs of it *! Almost embarrasing to admit, makes us both look stupid, but so true none the less. I am NOT the woman I used to be but at the same time, I still very much am !! Crazy!


----------



## Janie

SimplyAmorous said:


> OH my goodness Janie, do I ever think like you! I also feel they are the GATEKEEPERS, it is a treasure, Girls MUST be educated about men's insatiable LUST in puberty- and beyond and yeah, deal with themselves too! How men will say ANYTHING in the heat of the moment to get into their pants


SO SCARY to have daughters. 
With a son, you have to worry about one little 'thing', with a daughter you have to worry about every little 'thing'. SO TRUE!!



SimplyAmorous said:


> Absolutely LOVE this, I so wish I was younger to feel more excited about playing such a role- I say this only BECAUSE my husbands LUST was raging MORE THEN in comparison to now, so it would have so much more FUN.


How old is your husband? Have you considered dabbling in ED medications to inspire a lil extra LUST? May be worth kicking it up a notch on occasion... ? Have you tried pure seduction? Does he respond to it? 

Regarding your son, BRAVO! I know you don't believe everything he does, but as parents, our PRIMARY job is to raise competent, independent adults. Sounds like you did your job VERY WELL! And I love the way you describe the respectful banter you & he engage in. It sounds like a relationship based on mutual respect, acceptance and love. What could be better than that??


----------



## Enchantment

SimplyAmorous said:


> This truly IS a hell of a question isn't it? And we surely DON'T want them just sleeping with everyone they "feel" they love, as love is fickle without the commitment, so much easier to throw away.
> 
> OH my goodness Janie, do I ever think like you! I also feel they are the GATEKEEPERS, it is a treasure, Girls MUST be educated about men's insatiable LUST in puberty- and beyond and yeah, deal with themselves too! How men will say ANYTHING in the heat of the moment to get into their pants,


And so you are simply back to square one and the dichotomy for women regarding before marriage and after marriage you presented in your OP.

Perhaps BOTH girls AND boys need to be educated about themselves and each other, and most importantly to always respect themselves and others.

If a girl is going to be taught to be the gatekeeper of her treasures, then boys must likewise be taught to respect those treasures and to temper their insatiable lust. No one should get a free pass. imho.

And I'm glad that I only have sons. I've told my H more than once that I would have felt truly awful bringing a daughter into this world as I tend to have a bad attitude that being female is indeed a curse in many ways. I have to really work hard at seeing any beauty in it and temper my outlook
constantly.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> Had you been dating someone else, and your husband knew that you were the girl he wanted to spend the rest of his life with, would you have encouraged him to keep his mouth shut?


 Definitely better to open his mouth -YES. Not necessarily to tick off the boyfriend, but yes- get his heart out there. I feel, in raging love, 100% of the time, it is worth the risk of rejection. Infact you SHOULD be kicking yourself if you didn't take the chance. Facing a lifetime of "not knowing what could have been" would be ever tormenting. Too many have done it. 

I always enjoy those romantic movies where -a wedding is going to take place, but they are not meant to be! It is with someone else, and it has this dramatic & emotionally moving ending where they are reunited with their true loves. 




> I do find your original question even more interesting.


 Sometimes I hesitate to start a thread cause I wonder if enough will find interest in it at all -or reply - so glad to hear this. 



> The ex was very sexually aggressive while pursuing me. For a good long while there was plenty of uncertainty about our relationship, and during that period, the sex was absolutely off the hook. Honestly, there were times she was like a guy.
> 
> But ... once she knew she had me, EVERYTHING changed. But I was only able to recognize that by looking in the rearview mirror. I didn't see it that way at the time.
> 
> It's a pattern for her. Same thing happened with her boyfriend as well. While it was an affair ... it was steamy. Once he made it clear that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, it became something else.
> 
> She is distinctly NOT in tune with her sexuality. If anything her sexuality is sadly dysfunctional.


 Yeah, more Guys feel this way-for sure. I can not understand this AT ALL from a woman's end. My only fear is if the Guy acted like that. 

Sounds like a chronic FEAR of emotional intimacy, the pursuit for the dopamine fix of Newness -a mindset of chasing passion filled LUST over commitement based LOVE. I agree it might be fun, but it should grow old. 



> From my 'Nice Guy' perspective, I almost always waited for the woman I was interested in, to indicate that she was interested in me. In that regard, dating when I was young, revolved around letting the girl lead, and meant very little risk to my self esteem. I then simply catered to her lead as a well behaved young gentleman. First time I had sex? My girlfriend at the time suggested it, not me.


 Oh my, you really WAS backwards, I think you have my husband beat ! BUt wow, what a testimony you have then , see, we can change if it means THAT much to us, in all of these things, you have made yourself an inspiring example and boy you defend it too! Because you know where you came from! Nice . 



> I don't much follow that model anymore. Not even close. But ... as a man, there are few things to me more arousing than a woman that knows she wants YOU, and she goes for it.
> 
> Had this happen to me in my last dating experience.


I think it is GOOD we are NOT all the same really, makes it so much more interesting ! And room to BE ourselves, without shame - even for the aggressive women out there ! Deejo is looking for you !


----------



## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> Definitely better to open his mouth -YES. Not necessarily to tick off the boyfriend, but yes- get his heart out there. I feel, in raging love, 100% of the time, it is worth the risk of rejection. Infact you SHOULD be kicking yourself if you didn't take the chance. Facing a lifetime of "not knowing what could have been" would be ever tormenting. Too many have done it.


:iagree:


----------



## Janie

Enchantment said:


> And so you are simply back to square one and the dichotomy for women regarding before marriage and after marriage you presented in your OP.


Exactly!



Enchantment said:


> If a girl is going to be taught to be the gatekeeper of her treasures, then boys must likewise be taught to respect those treasures and to temper their insatiable lust. No one should get a free pass. imho.


But, boys (almost) always do...
And they NEVER get pregnant.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Janie said:


> How old is your husband? Have you considered dabbling in ED medications to inspire a lil extra LUST? May be worth kicking it up a notch on occasion... ? Have you tried pure seduction? Does he respond to it?


 Will be 48 -he is on the lower end of the testosterone scale but normal (had him tested when he couldn't keep up -funny looking back to say this! I didn't waste no time!). Dabbled in it all. I wish a little split viagra would inspire LUST, that is not its function-it only creates blood flow, not fantasies. That would require another pill ! 

He LOVES sex - I am never denied, his heart is always in it .... but even he admits, with my asking, the EMOTIONAL INTIMACY of making love is of MORE importance an influence than *LUST *.... see back in the day, that LUST would have been AS POWERFUL as the other, but now it is LESS so, nothing I can do, WE MISSED OUT. Why I still get teary eyed sometimes & piss & moan about my repressed self. Nothing I reget more in our marraige than THIS issue. 

For a time MY LUST was SO HIGH , he felt I *lusted *after him MORE than I *loved *him (isn't this ironic as this is how MOST wives feel early in their marraige -or for much of it -darn I could relate to that)...

Now, even for me, the drive for sex is more for the emotional connection, I want it every day. We would have to refrain for a good 4 days or more to Sexually CHARGE ourselves again for that CRAVING to come over us -like it was naturally in our youth -that intense passion driven euphoria that has your whole body tingling. 

Had I been clued into this in our past, I could have enticed the living balls off of him , could have had him going 3 times a day-if I felt like it. That opportunity will never come my way again.  But yeah, nothing more fun in this life than playing that part of a woman!


----------



## Janie

SimplyAmorous said:


> that LUST would have been AS POWERFUL as the other, but now it is LESS so, nothing I can do, WE MISSED OUT.


Sounds so final. I'm sorry. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Now, even for me, the drive for sex is more for the emotional connection, I want it every day.


I know you feel the loss of LUST, but emotional connection is so much more intimate and comforting. Definitely not a bad trade-off!



SimplyAmorous said:


> I could have enticed the living balls off of him


LOl



SimplyAmorous said:


> nothing more fun in this life than playing that part of a woman!


Full agreement with one minor tweak...
- Nothing more fun in this life than playing that part of HIS woman -


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Janie said:


> How to raise a daughter with a healthy sexuality???


Looking back at our past -I feel strongly that -had we done EXACTLY what we did do -and minused the guilt shame merry go round, I feel if each one of my children handle themselves in this manner, I would be proud of them ! and Yes, my daughter too . I feel this could encourange some experimentation without going TOO FAR. and it satisfys the sexual urge -instead of just masterbating off alone -separately. 

What I mean by this is ....refraining from accual intercourse but still experimenting with TOUCHING, becoming familiar with each others bodies -depending on the commitment of course while dating -none of this should ever come too fast. IT keeps you from getting pregnant, it is still very fun, and even in accord with Biblical Old testament standards -you may still get blood on the sheets on you wedding day. Me & my husbadn had a H of time -even getting it in. I was physically very much a virgin -even if I was not as PURE as the driven snow like our church felt was necessary. 

Heck, I didn't even KISS my boyfriend /now husband till a couple months after we hooked up. I was very shy, still getting to know him, he did pursue that pretty nicely. Broke me down on a country path in the woods. Sweet memories. 

And masterbating -embrace it -it wards off the sexual urges to do something in youth that would be best to NOT go there -YET, to guard your hearts.  LOVE this article -

The Dreaded "M" Word | Nerve.com

.


----------



## Janie

SimplyAmorous said:


> And masterbating -embrace it -it wards off the sexual urges to do something in youth that would be best to NOT go there -YET, to guard your hearts. LOVE this article -
> 
> The Dreaded "M" Word | Nerve.com
> 
> .


Masturbation - there's a topic to separate the men from the boys 

Speaking of repressed female sexuality, this is probably the most 'telling' area. Personally, I did not ever explore my own body until my late THIRTIES!!! How's that for repression??!!

And to overhear my daughters (even the oldest) mention or joke about masturbation - it is clearly obvious they have the idea it is something dirty and primal - and something GUYS do.

So... I wonder if that could be somewhat of a dividing line between repressed and open to sexuality. A woman who feels comfortable giving herself pleasure is probably more open to someone else giving her pleasure as well as desiring to please another...

Any thoughts?


----------



## nice777guy

Janie said:


> Masturbation - there's a topic to separate the men from the boys
> 
> Speaking of repressed female sexuality, this is probably the most 'telling' area. Personally, I did not ever explore my own body until my late THIRTIES!!! How's that for repression??!!
> 
> And to overhear my daughters (even the oldest) mention or joke about masturbation - it is clearly obvious they have the idea it is something dirty and primal - and something GUYS do.
> 
> So... I wonder if that could be somewhat of a dividing line between repressed and open to sexuality. A woman who feels comfortable giving herself pleasure is probably more open to someone else giving her pleasure as well as desiring to please another...
> 
> Any thoughts?


Just to clarify - when younger - guys "know" that guys are doing it - we know its normal. But its still seen as "dirty" and something you aren't meant to talk about.

Also - and pardon if TMI - its not like I gave it some thought one day and decided at the age of ?whatever? (10, 11, 12?) that I would give it a go. It just kind of happened. Maybe I'm wrong - but boys start touching themselves for pleasure at a very early age. Always seemed very natural to me.

And I knew that what I was doing felt good - but was very shocked one day when one of my experiments actually produced some results!!!


----------



## Janie

nice777guy said:


> Maybe I'm wrong - but boys start touching themselves for pleasure at a very early age. Always seemed very natural to me.


It is natural for girls and boys - any parent has had the uncomfortable moment when their son/daughter discovers they like touching some parts more than others 

Maybe it's also biological. It is MUCH MORE difficult for a female to reach orgasm - especially when inexperienced and alone. Boys give a tug and things start to work immediately. And it's all external...


----------



## nice777guy

Janie said:


> It is natural for girls and boys - any parent has had the uncomfortable moment when their son/daughter discovers they like touching some parts more than others
> 
> Maybe it's also biological. It is MUCH MORE difficult for a female to reach orgasm - especially when inexperienced and alone. Boys give a tug and things start to work immediately. And it's all external...


Exactly. Literally - kind of jumps out at a kid! And at an early age too.

But again - to clarify - we aren't exactly encouraged to explore this either.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> But again - to clarify - we aren't exactly encouraged to explore this either.


Isn't this why tube socks were invented? So naughty little boys could do their thing and better hide the evidence from Mom?


----------



## nice777guy

Are you serious? Am I the only guy in the world that's never used a tube sock?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Are you serious? Am I the only guy in the world that's never used a tube sock?


I'm sure there are about 4 others.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Janie said:


> I know you feel the loss of LUST, but emotional connection is so much more intimate and comforting. Definitely not a bad trade-off!


 I KNOW this, I could seriously write for days on how beautiful this part is -it has brought us to tears on occasion, I wouldn't trade it for the world -- or even for LUST as a replacement , but to have them BOTH at the heights at the same time--oh my yes!! 

I KNOW of what we have but still... on occasion I feel these twangs of jealousy for the YOUNG who are banging like bunny rabbits being all creative & such, reveling in thier youth, we were never quite like that, and for this....the regret gets emotional at times. My biggest fantasies are going back in time and imagining what we did NOT do. But I guess this is why I am so passionate about this subject - to open the eyes of others to not make these mistakes. 

Truly I am fired up over NOW, it is all very very very goooooood ! 



> Masturbation - there's a topic to separate the men from the boys
> 
> Speaking of repressed female sexuality, this is probably the most 'telling' area. Personally, I did not ever explore my own body until my late THIRTIES!!! How's that for repression??!!
> 
> And to overhear my daughters (even the oldest) mention or joke about masturbation - it is clearly obvious they have the idea it is something dirty and primal - and something GUYS do.
> 
> So... I wonder if that could be somewhat of a dividing line between repressed and open to sexuality. A woman who feels comfortable giving herself pleasure is probably more open to someone else giving her pleasure as well as desiring to please another...
> 
> Any thoughts?


Take it from ME....a woman can ENJOY masterbation, crave that feeling and still be sexually repressed ! I have been doing that since I was probably 12, I never did stick anything strange up there-never had a dildo, or even a vibrator till a couple yrs ago... just the friction with my clothes on was enough-to get me off. If I was sleeping & something rubbed up against me, could set me on fire there and well, It had to be done -loooovvveeeed that feeling, craved it after a time ...and as in marraige, I craved it at least once a week. It would built & built till I NEEDED a release. 

And I swear....this issue of masterbation is the ONLY thing I would have outright LIED about, died of embarressment to admit to anyone. I would have even lied to him back then had he asked -of coarse we didn't dare talk about these things !! My face would have turned as *RED *as a lobster if this subject was brought up!! So I definitely believe GIRLS still DO it but would rarely admit it --out of shame, the same as I DID. I don't for a minute believe most girls don't masterbate. 

So that is not always true either-that if you DO, you are less likely to be sexually repressed, it just means it may add to the shame & you are more compelled to be embarrssed and insecure about your body -everything hidden in the DARK, the way I felt about having sex for so many years. I don't think anything can be put into a box -so it seems. For me, the masterbation was just another merry go round of "dirtiness" that I couldn't reconcile with my beliefs of "*good girls don't*". And I surely fantasized about boys while doing it too !


----------



## Runs like Dog

Factoid of the day. Spanish missionaries among the Aztecs noted with horror that Aztec moms would masturbate their male AND female children if they were particularly cranky and would not sleep.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Runs like Dog said:


> Factoid of the day. Spanish missionaries among the Aztecs noted with horror that Aztec moms would masturbate their male AND female children if they were particularly cranky and would not sleep.


 I've heard that before, likely in one of my sex books. A pacifier always worked for mine, I think they need to deliver them by the bucketloads there. 

But It is a very very natural thing to do -to touch yourself there. I once seen a documentary on a girl raised with Wolves -as a very young child, I can't remember how she got there, but when she was found, it was the one thing they *couldn't *get her to stop doing, which had to be curbed so she could fit into society. She knew nothing about being human, she thought she was a wolf. It was very interesting, and a little sad. But surely shows our nature when you think about it. Even girls. 

I am coming to the conclusion -- Shame has it's place-these things shouldn't be talked about & spoken in the open, Repession is even NEEDED for the most part in our youth, it is just up to us individually to FIGHT it once we get married. And it can be a battle ...but it can still happen, if the woman cares enough to take it on. 

I am not sure there is any other way.


----------



## Janie

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am coming to the conclusion -- Shame has it's place-these things shouldn't be talked about & spoken in the open, Repession is even NEEDED for the most part in our youth, it is just up to us individually to FIGHT it once we get married. And it can be a battle ...but it can still happen, if the woman cares enough to take it on.


...and if the man gives her a safe place to be comfortable in her sexuality.

Nice answer, SA. Not sure we're gonna get much better than that.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I'm sure there are about 4 others.


And I'm one of them. The shower is so much cleaner.


----------



## scione

nice777guy said:


> Are you serious? Am I the only guy in the world that's never used a tube sock?


I use pillow case :rofl:


----------



## Kobo

Step 1 - Boy chases girl
Step 2 - Boy gets girl
Step 3 - Girl figures out how to keep boy around (lots of sex)
Step 4 - Boy can't believe his luck that he's found such a sexual dynamo
Step 5 - Boy and Girl get married
Step 6 - Girl initiates sex like crazy. "He made me his wife!"
Step 7 - Mortgage, kids, dirty sox, panties hanging in the shower, buying tampons,etc. show up
Step 8 - Girl starts keeping a running tab of things she needs to take care of in her mind. Sex with husband is near the bottom
Step 9 - Boy keeps a running tab of what he needs to do to in his head. Showing wife appreciation is near the bottom. (Hey, he did marry her)
Step 10 - Boy realizes he hasn't had sex in 2.5 weeks. Notices lack of sex has become a trend and the wife hasn't "initiated" in forever
Step 11 - Boy goes for his usual move that has worked all this time. (No hun, I've got to get this done)
Step 12 - Boy posts on TAM about his sexless marriage


AmIRight?


----------



## AFEH

Kobo said:


> Step 1 - Boy chases girl
> Step 2 - Boy gets girl
> Step 3 - Girl figures out how to keep boy around (lots of sex)
> Step 4 - Boy can't believe his luck that he's found such a sexual dynamo
> Step 5 - Boy and Girl get married
> Step 6 - Girl initiates sex like crazy. "He made me his wife!"
> Step 7 - Mortgage, kids, dirty sox, panties hanging in the shower, buying tampons,etc. show up
> Step 8 - Girl starts keeping a running tab of things she needs to take care of in her mind. Sex with husband is near the bottom
> Step 9 - Boy keeps a running tab of what he needs to do to in his head. Showing wife appreciation is near the bottom. (Hey, he did marry her)
> Step 10 - Boy realizes he hasn't had sex in 2.5 weeks. Notices lack of sex has become a trend and the wife hasn't "initiated" in forever
> Step 11 - Boy goes for his usual move that has worked all this time. (No hun, I've got to get this done)
> Step 12 - Boy posts on TAM about his sexless marriage
> 
> 
> AmIRight?


You may want to reconsider Step 1. The following is from Courtship Displays And Attraction Signals

_Why Women Always Call the Shots

Ask any man who usually makes the first move in courtship and he will invariably say that men do. All studies into courtship, however, show that women are the initiators 90% of the time. A woman does this by sending a series of subtle eye, body and facial signals to the targeted man, who, assuming he is perceptive enough to pick them up, responds to them. There are men who will approach women in a club or bar without being sent the green light but, while some of these men are regularly successful with finding partners, their overall statistical success rate is low because they weren't invited first - they're simply playing the numbers game.
_




I think it’s subterfuge, women playing “body language games”! But if a man is really “aware” and watches for the signals as opposed to checking them out as an eightoutoften or whatever or trying to determine if they would or wouldn’t then it all becomes a bit obvious and quite a bit of fun at the same time.

I think sometimes these things are as old as time itself. I also believe women know what signals they are sending out, they know what’s going through a man’s head and sometimes they’ll think “He’s a real dumb man, he’s too busy looking at my body yet he’s not picking up my signals. But I like the look of him so I’ll keep on trying for a while”.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Looks like his button is very clear and ready to be pushed. Still, how does he get friend zoned? He's a pretty boy, he should be friend zoning them... or unless he's rather awkward when dealing with the girls he likes.


 Random Dude, if you lived near me, I would seriously have a BALL getting you together with my son & listening to you telling him how to pick up the chicks! Ha ha. How entertaining that would be ! :rofl: ....I could just see him now...arguing with you -how he is not into this "game playing".... then he wouldn't like the fact you slept with women you was not in love with -before your wife, in his world -that is simply NOT honorable and men should restrain themselves. 

I am not getting on you about this, please understand, I am just saying ...he is a TOUGH COOKIE, he really thinks he has all the answers, him .....and GOD. He won't listen to me - about incorporating some "bad boy" mannerisms to catch the women HE WANTS. So when he hits 30 & every girl he ever tried to go after Friend Zoned him -maybe he will rethink some of this. Some has to learn from thier own stupidity I guess. 

I joke with him about his 14 yr old brother teaching him how to pick up the chicks- he is more forthcoming with overt joking around with the girls & for the past year & a half , it seems he has been bombarded , he has them asking him out from other schools, being invited to youth groups, amusement parks, an older girl asked him to Home Coming, one friend outright kissed him this summer when they were taking a walk -he probably wouldn't have told me if I wasn't asking questions- and these girls are cute! I just learned how he got his latest GF (his 3rd)... They are in Sports together (CC), coming back from a meet, he wrote on the bus's fogged windows "____ is pretty", she must have looked, then pushing it a little further, he wrote "very pretty" .... and well they have been together ever since. Young love, he walks her home every day. It is so sweet. I might have to watch THIS boy! And he still has other girls texting him & flirting - even though he is taken. I guess he'll have to be my older son's mentor. Ha ha 





> The flirting and touching became more intense but we still considered each other "friends", she put her legs on me, I stroked her inner thighs


 My son would feel this is wrong unless he was practically engaged & even then, he would think it would invite too much passion and bring him over the edge to where he couldn't stop. 

But of coarse I agree with YOU RD, that is all the FUN!! 



> Then we started playing a new game... I pull back, she comes forward. She pulls back, I flank her and catch her. I wasn't going to let her go. We were in love...
> 
> But anyways, as you can see it's not bad at all being "friend-zoned", he still has a chance, he just needs to step up on the game. But all of what I did I didn't learn out of book or even prior experience. I simply followed my heart, my gut, and even learnt her tricks of the trade - to use that against her to seduce her.
> 
> Love will do that.


 I enjoyed your story Random Dude- It is sweet and you know the art of Game playing Seduction, you are a natural... I am afraid my oldest is not. He is too overly respectable- alot like his dad, plus a little repressed on top of that -but he will not admit that, of coarse. 

I hope you have started a "JOURNAL" to record all of this -about you & her's beginnings & the GOOD times, it will help carry you through the bad. This is something I did about a year ago. As much as I love to write, suprisingly I never started a Journal of our experiences. Now I have a "Family Journal" & a separate , what I call - "Erotic Journal" that my kids better never get their hands on! Ha ha


----------



## bubbly girl

I've definitely become more adventurous in the bedroom as I've gotten older. Like you SA, I am much more open and forward sexually in my 30's than I was in my 20's. I can't believe I denied myself and my husband of certain things because I had it drilled into my head by other women that women (decent women) didn't do those things. And I wasn't even very repressed back then compared to other women I know. Boy I feel sorry for their husbands!

I love being pursued by my husband, but I will pursue him at times. The only reason I don't pursue more often is because I'd been turned down so many times (during a time we were having problems in the marriage and my husband rarely wanted sex with me). I guess I'm still a little gun shy from that. Thankfully he wants sex quite a bit now, but still I mainly wait for him to make the move. I think now the way I pursue him is a lot more subtle than I used to. 

I'm not sure if I'd be as open about my sexuality if I was single and dating. The safety and security and love I feel with my husband makes me much more open with him.


----------



## Halien

AFEH said:


> You may want to reconsider Step 1. The following is from Courtship Displays And Attraction Signals
> 
> _Why Women Always Call the Shots
> 
> Ask any man who usually makes the first move in courtship and he will invariably say that men do. All studies into courtship, however, show that women are the initiators 90% of the time. A woman does this by sending a series of subtle eye, body and facial signals to the targeted man, who, assuming he is perceptive enough to pick them up, responds to them. There are men who will approach women in a club or bar without being sent the green light but, while some of these men are regularly successful with finding partners, their overall statistical success rate is low because they weren't invited first - they're simply playing the numbers game.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it’s subterfuge, women playing “body language games”! But if a man is really “aware” and watches for the signals as opposed to checking them out as an eightoutoften or whatever or trying to determine if they would or wouldn’t then it all becomes a bit obvious and quite a bit of fun at the same time.


AFEH, you bring up a great point here. But I don't think its always subterfuge. I'm not sure of the names people use who study the actual displays that go on, but there is one that my dad called the delicate flower type. A single guy (or married, I guess) might pass this type in the hallway at work. She looks down, with a nervous expression. Notice how some women will still give off the signals that she's interested, though, because the hand motions are awkward. People think its deliberate, but I wonder if these are just so ingrained in us that some people don't know they're doing it.

Years ago, I was in a wedding reception of a friend, and my SILs future affair partner walked into the room. I told my wife then that the two of them were on their way to an affair, but she was convinced that I was crazy. Then months later, you hear the inevitable, "I never intended for this to happen" after the SIL comes clean on why she is divorcing. This was someone I had known for years. I don't think she was intending to send those signals, but the guy certainly picked up on them.

I think the average person doesn't believe that these signals exist, but I do agree that its usually not just a case of a guy blindly approaching a woman.


----------



## AFEH

Halien, I think subterfuge is a way of looking at it sometimes, but it was mainly said as an attempt at humour. A man can get drawn to a woman without being truly aware of what’s happening and why. And hence the reason the majority of men actually think they are the ones doing the initiating when they are not because it’s the woman doing the initiating.

Take my son for example. He’s an exceptionally good looking, a very attractive man. Walk down the street or be with him anywhere and there go those signals from the women that see him. The vast majority of those signals he just does not see, but as an observer I do. But it’s a problem for his partner, because she sees those signals as well, in the pub, restaurant etc. And that used to make her jealous to such an extent that she secretly checked out his emails etc. Which in turn gave my son a problem because he knew what she was doing but wanted to arrange a surprise birthday party for her. To do that he created an email accountant she didn’t know about and made the arrangements. When she found out that he’d known all along and about the separate email account she stopped checking and started trusting. 

But sure the signals women send out can all be done by them at the subconscious level. In that the woman may truly not be aware of what she is doing. But others watching the woman, most especially other women, can see exactly what it is that’s going on. There are a few women I’ve felt powerfully attracted to and probably needed a kick in the shins to wake me out of my stupor/trance. But it’s their fault for getting me in the trance in the first place!

And if women can give out their courting signals at the subconscious level then for sure men can receive them at the subconscious level as well. And it’s that which triggers him to make what he sees as the initiating approach, when in fact he’s responding rather than initiating.

I like to look at the opposites of things as well, like the 180 view. Just how foolish does a man look when he approaches a woman who has absolutely no interest in him whatsoever? She has not demonstrated any of her attraction/courting signals but the man goes up to her with all his well rehearsed chat up lines or whatever game he's into at the time and makes a right fool of himself. And consequently loses his confidence. He’s much better off getting to know just how us human’s signal our attraction to one another, our courtship dance, and learn how to respond to keep the attraction going, if he’s interested in the woman.


With your SIL example it sounds like you have that famous woman’s intuition and like me you have the N for intuition in your Myers Briggs profile. I’ve been fascinated by body language for a long time, Allan and Barbara Pease are my favourite gurus on the subject. But I think women live in the world of body language far more than men do. Some say the truth is in the body language, not necessarily in the spoken word and I believe that to be so.


----------



## AFEH

It’s my experience that women do court their husbands after they’re married.

It’s that courtship dance. In us humans it’s the female that has the majority of the moves. In essence she signals her availability because she is attracted to the male. And it’s up to the male to see and recognise her signals and to know how to respond to them. But I think most of us men when hit by the signals are still at the grunt stage! In that we go a bit stupid, sometimes. There’s an exceptionally attractive woman in the restaurant just down the road from me. When I walk by, if no one else is around who can see she gives me this most gorgeous smile, it lights the day up. Fabulous stuff.

I got many courtship signals from my wife while we were courting. There is one I think that many men just don’t recognise. It’s the “I’ll let him catch me” signal. All the while I thought it was me doing the chasing that was keeping us together. Now I know if for just one time she didn’t let me catch her it would have been over.

And even after we were married I thought it was always me doing the initiating as far as sex was concerned. And being the one with the higher sex drive it was (I think!). But I came to recognise my wife did initiate sex. But her initiating was by very subtle courtship signals and I reckon I missed lots of them by not being aware (mind somewhere else), some got through to my via my subconscious and others I actually consciously observed and interpreted correctly.

What I am trying to say is, especially to the men here, is that women do most definitely initiate sex. Some women will initiate in the same way as a typical man, and that is very openly and direct, there can be no mistake/misunderstanding about what she wants. But I think the vast majority of women are exceptionally subtle about their courtship signals, so much so that a lot of men simply don’t see them.



For me it is most definitely up to the man to keep himself in such ways and to behave in such ways that his wife is attracted to him in at least as much as she was before they were married. But shouldn’t it be more than that? Isn’t it after marriage that as men we really “prove” ourselves? That that man the woman gave herself to based on what she interpreted as his capabilities of taking care of her, most especially when she was bearing, giving birth to and looking after his children let alone everything else not associated with children, don’t we then prove through our actions we really are the man she dreamed of?

And if we do that as well as romance her, then most surely our wife will continue courting us all the way through our marriage and we’ll have as much sex, good food, comfort and as much of those magical endorphins that any man could ever wish for and she’ll just keep on letting us catch her.


----------



## Halien

AFEH said:


> It’s my experience that women do court their husbands after they’re married.
> 
> What I am trying to say is, especially to the men here, is that women do most definitely initiate sex. Some women will initiate in the same way as a typical man, and that is very openly and direct, there can be no mistake/misunderstanding about what she wants. But I think the vast majority of women are exceptionally subtle about their courtship signals, so much so that a lot of men simply don’t see them.
> 
> And if we do that as well as romance her, then most surely our wife will continue courting us all the way through our marriage and we’ll have as much sex, good food, comfort and as much of those magical endorphins that any man could ever wish for and she’ll just keep on letting us catch her.


Great point!! 

Yes, I'm a people watcher - comes with the territory if writing is a hobby - but my dad obessesed over this, and reinforced it while other kids were learning of fishing from their dad. He would always say that if you didn't think a girlfriend was trying to initiate sex, at least to some boundary level, then you were most likely blind. Of course, that one was less common than the saying about never approaching a woman without already knowing that she wanted to be approached.

The place where I worked out in college had a bar, and you could see inside as you worked out. As you indicated, it was funny watching guys approach a woman who had already told them with her body language to stay away. On the nights where I worked security there, the other guys and I would place dollar bets on it. Although I'm worlds away from being good at it, I could still beat the other bar help.

To me, one of the funniest examples of men's inability to explain these signs is in the movie "The Village". I saw it while passing through Whitefish,Montana, I believe. Lucius Hunt is trying to repeat something that Ivy Walker told him, on how she knew that he loved her. He was letting his mother know that he was aware of her love for another man. He said, "Sometimes we don't do things, yet others know we want to do things so we don't do them." His mom replied, "What nonsense do you speak?" He was trying to tell her that he noticed that she never touched the other man, but wanted to, knowing that it was forbidden love.


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> It’s my experience that women do court their husbands after they’re married.
> 
> <snip>
> What I am trying to say is, especially to the men here, is that women do most definitely initiate sex. Some women will initiate in the same way as a typical man, and that is very openly and direct, there can be no mistake/misunderstanding about what she wants. *But I think the vast majority of women are exceptionally subtle about their courtship signals, so much so that a lot of men simply don’t see them.*


You're probably right, but if someone is sending out a signal so subtle that no-one except themselves notices, whay are they surprised when no-one else _does_ in fact notice it?

If my wife was like this (which she isn't) and she said "Hey, I initiate, it's just subtle for you to see", I could equally answer "Hey, I meet your needs too, just in a way so subtle you don't notice". 

So what I'm trying to say is to people of both sexes who send signals so subtle that only an electron microscope can detect them:

1) Don't be surprised when no one notices;
2) Don't be upset when no one notices;
3) Don't be disappointed when no one reacts.


----------



## AFEH

Sawney Beane said:


> You're probably right, but if someone is sending out a signal so subtle that no-one except themselves notices, whay are they surprised when no-one else _does_ in fact notice it?
> 
> If my wife was like this (which she isn't) and she said "Hey, I initiate, it's just subtle for you to see", I could equally answer "Hey, I meet your needs too, just in a way so subtle you don't notice".
> 
> So what I'm trying to say is to people of both sexes who send signals so subtle that only an electron microscope can detect them:
> 
> 1) Don't be surprised when no one notices;
> 2) Don't be upset when no one notices;
> 3) Don't be disappointed when no one reacts.


But that’s the thing, others will notice even if you don’t. And you don’t notice because you don’t understand their language whereas others do! I’m big on personal responsibility. So I say to myself “I’m stupid for not learning their (women’s) language”, most especially when it’s the language of love. It doesn’t fit for me to say “Well, they’re stupid for not learning my language of love” and walk about as though I’m blind.


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> But that’s the thing, others will notice even if you don’t. And you don’t notice because you don’t understand their language whereas others do! I’m big on personal responsibility. So I say to myself “I’m stupid for not learning their (women’s) language”, most especially when it’s the language of love. It doesn’t fit for me to say “Well, they’re stupid for not learning my language of love” and walk about as though I’m blind.


Makes sense.

But if someone is sending a message knowing full well most of the people that they want to _get_ the message aren't even going to notice they sent it, are they actually bothered if they don't get an answer?:scratchhead:


----------



## Halien

Sawney Beane said:


> You're probably right, but if someone is sending out a signal so subtle that no-one except themselves notices, whay are they surprised when no-one else _does_ in fact notice it?
> 
> If my wife was like this (which she isn't) and she said "Hey, I initiate, it's just subtle for you to see", I could equally answer "Hey, I meet your needs too, just in a way so subtle you don't notice".
> 
> So what I'm trying to say is to people of both sexes who send signals so subtle that only an electron microscope can detect them:
> 
> 1) Don't be surprised when no one notices;
> 2) Don't be upset when no one notices;
> 3) Don't be disappointed when no one reacts.


I think there is a different POV that could be leveraged from this, though. Think of all the posts where women say that they felt too insecure to initiate in the early years of marriage. On the opposing side, you have men who seem hurt that their wife never initiates. Look deeper, and listen, and men can often see that their standard approach to sex is being received negatively. Understand my wife's way of initiating in the early years, and I realize that it is not at all the same language I would normally use. And if the relationship is healthy, she becomes more comfortable in speaking my language too. Not at all talking about gaming here. Just a very practical fact that many men do not really take the time to listen to a woman's preferences, which she may be projecting loudly in her own way. We often don't even have a clue that we're supposed to expect her needs to be different. Seems like the entertainment industry, and young men, try to push women to respond exactly like men.

Although my wife publically declared that she wasn't interested in me when we first met, she leaned closer when I sat beside her, which never happened when another guy sat close. All the classical movements were there, plus some unique ones that no other guy has ever seen.


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH, Halien,

I suppose this is the sort of thing I mean. One of you two is in a bar / restaurant / office / doctor's waiting room / whereever. You see a woman making her oh-so-subtle nearly imperceptible signals toward some other guy. Unlike you, he doesn't even know these signals exist, never mind how to read them. He ignores her and bimbles off into the sunset.

She has manifestly failed to achieve her aim. The only people who noticed her signals were you two and she ain't interested in either of you (nothing personal, you were just there for the sake of the discussion!)

If most of the time it fails, why do it?


----------



## Halien

Sawney Beane said:


> AFEH, Halien,
> 
> I suppose this is the sort of thing I mean. One of you two is in a bar / restaurant / office / doctor's waiting room / whereever. You see a woman making her oh-so-subtle nearly imperceptible signals toward some other guy. Unlike you, he doesn't even know these signals exist, never mind how to read them. He ignores her and bimbles off into the sunset.
> 
> She has manifestly failed to achieve her aim. The only people who noticed her signals were you two and she ain't interested in either of you (nothing personal, you were just there for the sake of the discussion!)
> 
> If most of the time it fails, why do it?


No offense taken. I've learned to appreciate my inner beauty, after seeing too many seduction-zingers pass over my shoulder to my brother anyway.

We're not talking about a marriage language. Its more like a smile. We give it to some, and not to others. Just because some person can't figure out that a smile means you're happy, doesn't mean you should stop smiling.

There are just many people out there who, whether intentionally or not, read those signals if they are there. They'll even watch out of the instinctive recoil when a person is married, but finds themself attracted to someone. I'd wager that this is what initiates many affairs. The entertaiment media exxagerates it to make sure that the audience notices.


----------



## AFEH

Communication by body language depends on so many things. If for example the man is preoccupied he’s not going to notice, in the same way if he’s closed minded he’s not going to notice. Some are completely unaware of what goes on outside of an inch away from their head. Some like me practice awareness, being aware and “living in the now” instead of living in our mind either in the past or in the future.

Some simply don’t know the language of body language, they don’t understand it even when it’s “spoken” to them. Very much in the same way as if someone were speaking Chinese or Russian to them “What did you say? Can you explain that? Can you speak in English please?”. Body language is a whole language of and in itself.

Body language really is a part of our everyday language and I reckon we don’t learn it at our peril. But for us men I think it is something we need to learn, something we need to study and practice in order to become competent in. Whereas I believe it comes natural to most women. In fact so natural that they don’t even think about it, they are the “Unconscious Competents” while most men are the “Unconscious Incompetents”.

And just maybe that’s why so many signals aren’t picked up. Because women think they are talking in our language when in fact we haven’t a clue what they are saying (with their body language). For us, not only do we not hear it most of the time, if we did they may as well be speaking in French or Dutch. But they think we’re understanding them, their body language signals. And because we don't respond they maybe think we don’t want to know and so they give up trying after 5 such courting signals. When in fact we simply haven’t understood what they said.


----------



## Deejo

All I know is that it would be nice if women pursuing men could be reduced to non-verbal cues no less subtle than the flashing of boobs.

I mean ... c'mon, we'd get that 99% of the time unless we were all at Mardi Gras.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Deejo said:


> All I know is that it would be nice if women pursuing men could be reduced to non-verbal cues no less subtle than the flashing of boobs.
> 
> I mean ... c'mon, we'd get that 99% of the time unless we were all at Mardi Gras.


At least no one could accuse an approach like that of being too subtle:rofl:


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> Body language is a whole language of and in itself.


Gonna be tight answering this weekend, but don't want to think I'm ignoring this.

I think there's "dialects" in body language - martial arts gives you a fluency in some dialects, being a soldier / policeman (I guess re. the latter) in others. Probably no one speaks all of them, maybe sometimes you pick up one and miss another altogether (theory?).


----------



## Runs like Dog

So basically it's like Doug Andrews book the Hitchhiker's Guide when they blow up the world to make room for the intergalactic highway and they note that they put up a warning sign on alpha centauri for like a thousand years and no one said anything.


----------



## Halien

Sawney Beane said:


> Gonna be tight answering this weekend, but don't want to think I'm ignoring this.
> 
> I think there's "dialects" in body language - martial arts gives you a fluency in some dialects, being a soldier / policeman (I guess re. the latter) in others. Probably no one speaks all of them, maybe sometimes you pick up one and miss another altogether (theory?).


People naturally assume certain gestures based upon their career, social standing, etc. Think of the policeman stance, legs slightly further apart, body is ready. A professor stance doesn't work too well on a millwright, either. I just find it very interesting, but recognize that we men tend to stink at it. I once read a psychology study that said that men commonly mistake friendship gestures in women with sexual invitation gestures, while women are more accurate.

But still, if a female human resource manager gives you the face pedestal, where she rests her chin on her intertwined fingers, which are flat, it just means she's trying to make you uncomfortable. But if your wife gives it to another man across the table, you can be in big trouble. Or if brief eye contact plays like table tennis between them for a few minutes. Especially since body language really settles down in many happy marriages. I still maintain, however, that some people are just more expressive than others, so I wouldn't want to be basing any real life decisions on it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> Take my son for example. He’s an exceptionally good looking, a very attractive man. Walk down the street or be with him anywhere and there go those signals from the women that see him. The vast majority of those signals he just does not see, but as an observer I do. But it’s a problem for his partner, because she sees those signals as well, in the pub, restaurant etc. And that used to make her jealous to such an extent that she secretly checked out his emails etc. Which in turn gave my son a problem because he knew what she was doing but wanted to arrange a surprise birthday party for her. To do that he created an email accountant she didn’t know about and made the arrangements. When she found out that he’d known all along and about the separate email account she stopped checking and started trusting.


 I would likely feel like his GF too, I would have a hard time being with a guy like that, his tract record of picking them up & having many under his belt -would intimidate me terribly. I would feel much more secure being with a man who hasn't been with alot of women, or is on the SHY side, or like my son & his College roommate -though they are too religious. 

Maybe that speaks of my insecurities- but I think it also puts my feet on the ground. I would see all of those men a gamble, with constant competition on the horizon. Even the most secure women get burned - look at Sandra Bullock. Taming the Playboy, what are the real chances!?? I have liked the looks of some guys like this - of coarse! But I really can't say I ever put out vibes for them , entertaining ideas of catching them, I considered that a complete waste of time, they wouldn't have given me a chance anyway. I wasn't no cheerleader or anything special , even today, no social status really. I enjoyed fantasing about the lessor in demand. And making fun of my girlfriends who liked those types of Hotties in school, I knew they didn't have a stone's throw of a chance anyway, it was such a waste of mental energy. 





> There are a few women I’ve felt powerfully attracted to and probably needed a kick in the shins to wake me out of my stupor/trance. But it’s their fault for getting me in the trance in the first place!


 Now that's a good one, you sound like Brandon on this Season of Survivor. Seeing him get all worked up , then blaming the women was really amusing this season-it is what got me watching it - his plan for voting them off was how much temptation they was giving his eyes. Unless they are dressing too provocatively & outright flirting with you, I am not sure this is "fair" to say. But I understand that is how you feel. Maybe you are not alone. ??





Halien said:


> I once read a psychology study that said that men commonly mistake friendship gestures in women with sexual invitation gestures, while women are more accurate.......
> 
> I still maintain, however, that some people are just more expressive than others, so I wouldn't want to be basing any real life decisions on it.


 I say Amen to these things. For me, I can be very friendly IF someone approaches me & I feel comfortable talking to them -if I like thier mind , even more so -- I do not rebuff the homely man, in fear he will think I am "interested" in him. That kinda falls on him. I am assertive enough to distinquish any rises he may feel -if he goes there. I don't think alot of women are, too afraid to hurt another's feelings so they avoid even a conversation. I guess whatever works! 

Men are the ones who don't give women the time of day -if they are not interested -probably precisely WHY they THINK like that.


----------



## Zzyzx

Those signals... as a deep introvert, there's no doubt in my mind I've missed a lot. Even now that I know to look for them, it isn't always easy since every woman differs according to her personality. Also have to look at the circumstances during which the signals are being sent out. For instance, I'm taking dance lessons and I think one of my instructors likes me a lot, eye contact, light flirting, light touching on the hands, etc., but at the same time, this is in a dance studio, it's a business and she looks 20 years younger than me. Not to mention she's teaching other men, did I say it's a business? So I've made it a point not to read anything into it other than just having fun and if she wants anything more, she'll have to send me more hints. But they will be subtle and I'll have to catch them. Now go out to some group lessons where I might have 10 to 15 partners during an hour, different dynamics there. Some women are cool, some are warm. If I find a warm partner, I'll look to see if she's like that with the other guys. Which is usually the case, then it's not just me, that's her personality, she appears to like men in general and that is attractive to us. Also now that I know what to look for, I often get hints from unattractive women, they just don't do it for me so I am polite and I give my attention to dancing well with them.


----------



## AFEH

SA, you are very wrong about my son. There are things you cannot even conceive of but I’ll leave it there.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> Now that's a good one, you sound like Brandon on this Season of Survivor. Seeing him get all worked up , then blaming the women was really amusing this season-it is what got me watching it - his plan for voting them off was how much temptation they was giving his eyes. Unless they are dressing too provocatively & outright flirting with you, I am not sure this is "fair" to say. But I understand that is how you feel. Maybe you are not alone. ??


Twas a joke but my sense of humour is a bit off the wall. I’m glad you found the one you love. Really glad and really pleased for you. Bless you SA.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> SA, you are very wrong about my son. There are things you cannot even conceive of but I’ll leave it there.


Please know, I was talking more about myself- just using that as an example. And like I say, it could be insecurity related, I don't deny this at all. One time it was asked on a thread here......what Girl would want the "grocery store" bagger Johhny Depp over the Movie Star Johnny Depp. Personally I would cast my vote for the Adorable Grocery Store attendent. I think he would have more TIME for his woman, I would have LESS compitition and we could achieve our goals together. 

Some of us women can't be put into a box, just as I am sure your son can't be either. I don't think lowly of him, but I still can understand his GF's mindset with all the looks of other Hot women on him when he is out. And if his personality is charming as well, that even adds to the flaming. 

It is good we can talk about our kids on here. I mean no disrespect. I just like to throw my thoughts out there.


----------

