# EA?



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

To me, the term "emotional affair" connotes something platonic and fairly innocent, at least in intentions. Potentially quite dangerous and damaging, but not cringeworthy stuff. Not something polite company would necessarily shun. 

PA seems to mean that there has been physical contact of a sexual nature. Yet a PA might go only to the extent of an ill-considered kiss or grope. Where an EA might involve hours, days on end, months of graphic interaction, sexting, phone sex, masturbation sessions, rendevous plans, and talk of what may come.

Between EA and PA there seems to be an intersect of sexual affair.

For months after D-Day #1, I was certain my wife had had only and at most an emotional affair falling within the definition first posited. That alone was hard to deal with. Now the term EA seems like complete whitewash.

Soliciting thoughts on the term EA vs PA or SA.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

To me, EA is shorthand for "there was no sex but they were having an affair." The rest is an affair. I feel that some folks get too hung up on the demarcation. "My husband had an EA and PA!" Well, no... they had an affair, plain and simple. Not that there's anything simple about it, but I think you take my meaning.

An emotional affair as a term is a weird catch all, to be sure.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> To me, EA is shorthand for "there was no sex but they were having an affair." The rest is an affair. I feel that some folks get too hung up on the demarcation. "My husband had an EA and PA!" Well, no... they had an affair, plain and simple. Not that there's anything simple about it, but I think you take my meaning.


Yes, I suppose. As long as "affair" is understood to capture everything that is illicit and the rest is circumstance and details.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> To me, the term "emotional affair" connotes something platonic and fairly innocent, at least in intentions. Potentially quite dangerous and damaging, but not cringeworthy stuff. Not something polite company would necessarily shun.
> 
> PA seems to mean that there has been physical contact of a sexual nature. Yet a PA might go only to the extent of an ill-considered kiss or grope. Where an EA might involve hours, days on end, months of graphic interaction, sexting, phone sex, masturbation sessions, rendevous plans, and talk of what may come.
> 
> ...


A PA is a physical affair, a betrayal is a betrayal, an affair is an affair....one just as damaging as the other, all cringeworthy.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> an affair is an affiar....one just as damaging as the other, all cringeworthy.


With apologies to Gertrude Stein and William Shakespeare.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

I had told my H that I could get over him having a ONS easier than his EA's..... 

We are divorcing, not just for the EA's,, but would it make a difference to me if it was a PA?? Not on the hurt level..


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Many people excuse themselves for bad behaviour 'because there was no sex'. I'm of the opinion that an affair is an affair, emotional, physical, animal or whatever.

I didn't know what an EA was before I came here; and I'd actually had one! It was completely conducted over the internet, so he never touched me, but when we ended it, it felt just like any other breakup, complete with calling in sick, crying, being unable to eat, and not getting out of bed for days.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I sometimes think that there should be 4 categories of affairs instead of the 2

EA- lots of verbal and/or cyber affirmations of love or heavy flirtations
CSA- cybersex affair where sexting and cyber sex occurs
PA- physical sex usually done for the sex
EA/PA or EA/CSA- where the EA is consummated or a PA gets emotionally involved


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I sometimes think that there should be 4 categories of affairs instead of the 2
> 
> EA- lots of verbal and/or cyber affirmations of love or heavy flirtations
> CSA- cybersex affair where sexting and cyber sex occurs
> ...


I like that. It also seems to me there is a fairly meaningful line to be drawn between the EA where there is connection and unspoken attraction, but no overt sexuality and the SA, which is everything beyond that. Both suck. But in my mind, categorically different (for the record, I am not defending the hands clean EA and I have never had either).


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

My wife was in an EA for well over a year. There was never any physical contact, it was long distance. But it severely damaged the marriage. Started as most, social media. Emails and posts, evolved into phone calls. Probably turned deadly when they began to discuss their marital issues. A bond formed and it went completely under the radar. After discovery my wife stated "I haven't done anything wrong" and I believe in her mind she hadn't. They had not had sex and she felt it was just a friendship. I think she was completely in denial because the relationship was non-sexual. What it did do was TOM replaced me as her emotional center and as long as he was in contact with her that was not going to change. The marriage was badly listing at the time the EA started and she thought she was helping herself by turning to a shoulder to cry on. In fact what happened is they reversed the bilge pump and pulled the whole sea into it. An EA can creep into a marriage unnoticed by all and that is what makes it so dangerous.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Amp, that is exactly where I thought my wife was, and it was the greatest challenge yet to our marriage and the hardest thing I had in my life tried to work through. Until I learned of the sexual.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I think that's why EA's can be dangerous, most people don't even realize that they're having an affair or destroying their mariage including the BS


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I think that's why EA's can be dangerous, most people don't even realize that they're having an affair or destroying their mariage including the BS


Don't make me call you out as an apologist again.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm not being an apologist, ignorance is no excuse


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I know you were speaking to Amplexor's post. Just having some fun. I have just enough time for 9 holes before my next call. I'm out for a while.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

An EA is not platonic and innocent. If it were, it would be a friendship. An EA is an affair where sex hasn't happened yet but the two people probably have fantasized about it and talked about it. An EA is every bit as dangerous to a marriage as a PA. EAs are almost how many PAs start. Most people don't wake up one day and think "I'm going to have an affair today." Most people who I've known to get into affairs went down the slipperly slope from an EA to a PA. 

A lot of people when they hear the word "affair" ask "was it physical?" "how physical was it?" "who was the aggressor?" I think while those are valid questions, people get hung up on the wrong thing. It's the strong emotional connection to a person outside the marriage which creates an atmosphere, a relationship, a sufficient intimacy that's the most damaging to the marriage. Energy, attention and confidences that should have existed only for the spouse get transferred to the other person. In that kind of EA atmosphere it's so easy to then imagine kissing and doing other physical things to the other person. An EA is no less dangerous than a PA.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Amp, that is exactly where I thought my wife was, and it was the greatest challenge yet to our marriage and the hardest thing I had in my life tried to work through. Until I learned of the sexual.


Wait a minute, Harken, did your wife's affair end up being sexual??? I thought it was an EA and they spoke at the beach, etc, but there was no sex.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Nothing is certain, beyond that they spent a lot of time talking about their sexual fantasies for each other, rendezvous plans that may or may not have been consummated, sexting, and the like. My reaction is "Ick. Who does that? What, are you 12?"


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

________________________________________
I should add that masturbation was a topic from their first conversation on. 

Plus, my wife is attractive but this guy looks like a hairy turtle. It's just weird.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Harken Banks said:


> Plus, my wife is attractive but this guy looks like a hairy turtle. It's just weird.


Leave AR out of it.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AR is silky smooth. Plus, he has ninja moves. I cannot compete.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I sometimes think that there should be 4 categories of affairs instead of the 2
> 
> EA- lots of verbal and/or cyber affirmations of love or heavy flirtations
> CSA- cybersex affair where sexting and cyber sex occurs
> ...


You might also want to add one. You can have an PEA an emotional affair where there are no affirmations of love but rather significant damaging emotional investment that subtracts from the spousal relationship.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

With my wayward wife, I hit the whole gambit.

For instance, one of my wife’s EA’s , I captured a lot of the texting. For the most part, it had a very subdued sexual tension overture... Like, “Man you look good in that dress.” was about as racy as it got. Yet, two hours of phone calls and a hundred text per day... She/he had to be in constant contact. That was a ‘need’... Another guy was like this too.

Then another was sexting. “I’m gonna do this or that to you”. “Oooh... I’m wet...”. Total sexual flirtation and banter as well as probably some illicit phone pics exchanged. Mutual masturbation over the phone I believe also occurred. And I know he bought her a smut book and had her read passages to him over the phone. That became her LTPA that was on and off again over a couple year period.

And there’s the ones she wanted to bang. There was intent, but plans were foiled for one reason or another. How do I view those? They would have been PA’s... She’d flirted with them, wanted them, but they were probably unaware of her intentions. She just didn’t have the opportunity to try and seduce them. Half a dozen there. Does intent to be adulterous matter that much considering I have real affairs to deal and cope with? Nope.

The quasi-PA’s were also varied. Some I have a hard time defining ‘what’ or ‘where’ they stand. A couple hours chatting, accepting a ride home, and a lingering kiss goodnight, possibly some quick ass grabs as she retreated. That’s it... she didn’t accept his further invites to do anything. A few different guys. 

One was another woman (friend). For giggles and to garnish attention from the guys. They made out publically and groped each other. How do I react to that one? Same night she ‘jumped’ another guy and kissed him; He rejected her. PA? 

Then the real PA’s; Two that she’s confessed. One LTPA and another bizzare RA/ONS with his best friend after the LTPA torqued her off (and it was kind of rapey)....

As for SA? By all accounts, my wife fits the SA. By my own accounting though... it was about the same ‘attitude’ from 2002-2009. She considered herself available to date and act single. It destroyed her in the end. 

Bottom line though: None of it was harmless. She had a defiant intent to harm our marriage. No matter how you look at it, her thoughts were not about or related toward maintaining any vows she made to me. All of it was for her own benefit... I was the babysitter, the ‘good life’ painting she presented to those who cared about that, the income... She used the marriage to accommodate herself and who she wanted others to see; Then she’d shove it aside to be a ‘fun party girl’ she wanted to be. It wasn’t ever about me and what I wanted or about our dreams or about why we were supposedly married. It was always about herself and feeding her selfish wants and fantasies. Very conflicted person with opposing thoughts of who she wanted to be: Loving wife or fun party person. She failed trying to be both and just ended up being a used up barfly with a barely functional marriage.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I sometimes think that there should be 4 categories of affairs instead of the 2
> 
> EA- lots of verbal and/or cyber affirmations of love or heavy flirtations
> CSA- cybersex affair where sexting and cyber sex occurs
> ...


Where does "We just kissed" fit into that...lol


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well considering that most of the time when they say that it was more than a kiss, I'd say PA


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> I sometimes think that there should be 4 categories of affairs instead of the 2
> 
> EA- lots of verbal and/or cyber affirmations of love or heavy flirtations
> CSA- cybersex affair where sexting and cyber sex occurs
> ...


This makes sense. But then situations where two people get close, but don't have any love affirmation or heavy flirtations would not qualify. Those would just be considered close friendships, which I agree should be the case.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

gbrad said:


> This makes sense. But then situations where two people get close, but don't have any love affirmation or heavy flirtations would not qualify. Those would just be considered close friendships, which I agree should be the case.



Not if they "hide" these friends, or invest too much time outside their marriage keeping in touch with them...


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Numb in Ohio said:


> Not if they "hide" these friends, or invest too much time outside their marriage keeping in touch with them...


Or are attracted to these friends...


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Numb in Ohio said:


> Not if they "hide" these friends, or invest too much time outside their marriage keeping in touch with them...


What if their spouse knows they are friends with them and talks to them? Again, what is too much time? Yes, spending too much time with any friend outside of a marriage can be harmful to the marriage because we need to spend time with our spouses. But does that amount change because they are the opposite sex?


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Coffee Amore said:


> Or are attracted to these friends...


We can't just avoid all people we are attracted to. How would people go to work, or the grocery store.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

gbrad said:


> We can't just avoid all people we are attracted to. How would people go to work, or the grocery store.



AR was talking about EA's, not mutual friends....

Everyone can be attracted to other people without becoming friends with them... people can be attracted to friends without ever beginning an EA or A... 

Its about crossing the line.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

gbrad said:


> We can't just avoid all people we are attracted to. How would people go to work, or the grocery store.


Of course not. I'm attracted to Hugh Jackman but I'm not in an EA with him. It's about adding secret emotional intensity to the relationship. Affairs start in the mind... when you add secret conversations (including texts, emails, IMs), a strong emotional connection and an attraction you have the perfect storm for an EA.

*Anatomy of adultery..*
1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny." 

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other." 

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with." 

"We both loved horses, and started riding together." 

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work." 

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!" 


2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible." 

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time." 

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk. 

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me." 


3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for." 

"She was there when I needed her." 

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing." 

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become." 

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good." 


4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier." 

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work." 

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume." 

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there." 

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday." 


5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us." 

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him." 

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down." 

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband." 


6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape." 

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us." 

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other." 

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me." 


7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about." 

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together." 

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far." 

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt." 

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married." 

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know." 


8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this." 

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame." 

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that." 

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me." 

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too." 


9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet." 

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible." 

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss." 

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk." 


10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone." 

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk." 

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often." 

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up." 


11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot." 

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting." 

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other." 


12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us." 

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it." 

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings." 

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?" 

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered." 

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings." 


13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war." 

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time." 

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me." 


14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more." 

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin." 

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified." 

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally." 


15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery." 

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other." 

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex." 

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Numb in Ohio said:


> AR was talking about EA's, not mutual friends....
> 
> Everyone can be attracted to other people without becoming friends with them... people can be attracted to friends without ever beginning an EA or A...
> 
> Its about crossing the line.


I understand that. It is just that some people seem to think that getting to close to a friend of the opposite sex constitutes EA.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

gbrad said:


> I understand that. It is just that some people seem to think that getting to close to a friend of the opposite sex constitutes EA.


When you get "too close",, it usually is... It depends on how your spouse feels about it, and if it's within marriage boundaries..


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

My wife is basically back to the point of telling me that her relationship with this guy was not really an "affair."


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

I doubt she ever thought otherwise, sorry to say.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> My wife is basically back to the point of telling me that her relationship with this guy was not really an "affair."


Is she back home or on another "business" trip.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> My wife is basically back to the point of telling me that her relationship with this guy was not really an "affair."




Nothing like getting technical.

Let's say it didn't qualify as an "affair" according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Who cares? It's still a grave betrayal of trust and a very hurtful show of disloyalty and without a doubt an inappropriate expression of intimacy.

There, does that make her feel better about it? 

So if it's not an affair, then I take it she thinks it's okay to do it again?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Nothing like getting technical.
> 
> Let's say it didn't qualify as an "affair" according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Who cares? It's still a grave betrayal of trust and a very hurtful show of disloyalty and without a doubt an inappropriate expression of intimacy.
> 
> ...


I don't know. It's more back to you are being/have been ridiculous. Overreacted, misunderstood, projected, misapprehended, mischaracterized. Plus you’ve just been a jerk about the whole thing.

A friend or hers recommended a possible new counselor for us. She wanted me to call the counselor. I appreciated the thought. Thought it was a good idea. She was very nice. Mentioned that we had had a bad experience with marriage counseling in the Spring in which the counselor effectively provided protection and cover for AMU’s relationship with POSOM, and chided me saying that I should let it go. I asked her what authors or sources she considered important references on the topic of infidelity. She did not come up with any. I mentioned that I had found the Shirley Glass book and had found to be a helpful reference that I found when I was struggling to understand what was going. She had not heard of it. I kind of apologized and said I recognize that there is not a single authoritative or definitive source and that there might be plenty in Not Just Friends and in other resources to disagree with or at least have some different ideas about and was asking simply because the stakes were so high. Reported to AMU the counselor seemed nice, plus the bits noted above and that we could talk later.

AMU understood from my message that there was a Not Just Friends/TAM litmus test. Not what I intended. From there it went to analogizing her friendship with that of Elly73’s husband. Then strong reaction to the term “affair.”


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Also a few statements that I need to move on, which is not untrue.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Also a few statements that I need to move on, which is not untrue.


No one can give you a time table on how to feel. No one. You know this, man!

Maybe you can move on when she demonstrates some remorse; not because she has to, but because she wants to.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I asked her what authors or sources she considered important references on the topic of infidelity. She did not come up with any. I mentioned that I had found the Shirley Glass book and had found to be a helpful reference that I found when I was struggling to understand what was going. She had not heard of it. I kind of apologized and said I recognize that there is not a single authoritative or definitive source and that there might be plenty in Not Just Friends and in other resources to disagree with or at least have some different ideas about and was asking simply because the stakes were so high. Reported to AMU the counselor seemed nice, plus the bits noted above and that we could talk later.
> 
> AMU understood from my message that there was a Not Just Friends/TAM litmus test. Not what I intended. From there it went to analogizing her friendship with that of Elly73’s husband. Then strong reaction to the term “affair.”


Well first of all--**I** am the one who set up knowledge of Not Just Friends as a litmus test for marriage counselors. I suspect other TAM members agree that's a good idea, but this isn't some type of forum consensus that everyone voted on. The reason **I** suggest it as a litmus test is because Shirley Glass was called the godmother of infidelity research by the New York Times. Maybe AMU hates the NYT, but whatever, the point is that Glass was indubitably recognized on a national level as a leading infidelity researcher.

Her book is definitive in the sense that there is nothing else like it. It is a compendium of relevant scientific studies that Glass reviewed and summarized. But it isn't as if you and I had done such a thing--no, Glass did plenty of original research and if you google her you'll find some of her papers. So she was more than qualified to write such a book. The book is for a layperson--it is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It is safe to say that since the book was written, a lot of additional science has been done that could be added to the book. However, our counselor, who has been doing this for decades, pulled the book off the shelf without me ever mentioning it. And other therapists that TAM members have hired are familiar with it, too.

But it's no great shakes to say that a fantastic marriage counselor who truly "gets" infidelity doesn't have to know Glass's book. So I'm not sure whether AMU thinks it's bad that the counselor doesn' t know about the book, or that she thinks it's silly you asked about the book--unclear from your post. You can always give a copy of the book to the counselor and recommend that she read it so that she can understand where you're coming from and see whether she agrees with the book or not. This book is NOT something from the checkout line at the grocery store and a counselor would be hard-pressed to put it down in ANY way except that it is now nearly 10 years old. (Seems to me cheating isn't something that drastically changes over such a short span of time.)

I would never apologize to a counselor and imply it's okay they don't know about the book. I really think all marriage counselors SHOULD know about the work of Glass. But marriage counselors don't all go to one school with one set of textbooks to learn how to give marital advice. That cuts both ways--for example, it means that the clinical psychiatrist (PhD) in a nearby toney neighborhood turned out to be a sh8tty therapist, while the counselor who knew about Glass, and who both my husband and I believe is 1000% better, didn't graduate from quite such a famous school. There aren't a lot of standards for marriage counselors out there, hence the incredibly wide range of quality and experiences.

As for comparing herself to Elly's husband--perhaps she missed the part where Elly's husband, so far, has NEVER said ANYTHING sexual to the woman he's flirting with. From what I understand, there is no way at all that AMU can says that. Whether we like it or not, overt sexually intimate conversation crosses a line that pretty much everyone considers a grave violation of marital trust. Some will say it isn't "cheating" if there isn't physical touching. Needless to say, I strongly disagree, because sexual conversations signal availability and are interpreted by the OM as an overt desire to cheat, whether she likes it or not.

What I'd say, if she were married to me, is that her strong desire to minimize what she did is PRECISELY what is keeping you from healing. It strongly implies that given half a chance she would do it again. She can't talk out of both sides of her mouth: 1. "I'd never do that again, it's wrong," at the same time as 2. "But it's not that big a deal."

If anyone is making it a big deal, she is. If she wants you to not focus on it so much, she desperately needs to take a different tack.
Has SHE read Not Just Friends? After what you've said, that would greatly surprise me.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

My wife read, in the somewhat recent aftermath, Not Just Friends and His Needs, Her Needs. She used to mock me for reading Glass, suggesting that I was projecting my situation into the world of the betrayed. While she was carrying on with her not really an affair. Yep. Insult to injury. But in time she seemed to see and read NJF with interest. Enough to critique my approach to reconciliation. I was "not doing it right." I was not meeting her half way in reconciliation. Somewhat the same with His Needs, Her Needs. But, I think, a positive and step forward that she read them. For her and for me. Wherever we go.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I hope you understood my point--

that if you needed me to be the "fall guy" for the litmus test (ie, it was just one person) I'm happy to take it.

or, if you needed to argue in support of a litmus test, I tried to explain why I thought it ought to be one.

She is missing the forest for the trees.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Thank you. Understood and appreciated. No need for you or anyone else to take the fall. There is no fall to take. We had a disastrous counseling experience. I thought it fair and appropriate to ask this new counselor a few questions. Hell, she works for us. I write the checks. My family is at stake.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

To me, EA's are just as bad as PA's. Bottom line.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EAs are bad because:

1. I don't want to place my loyalty and priority with someone who does not reciprocate. 

2. As I mentioned to my fiance, relationships do not occur in a vacuum. You will probably find that the less desireable treatment you received at the hands of your partner had everything to do with the ups and downs of his/ her EA.

3. I don't like the idea that someone can get off on the fact that they can get the attention and generosity from my partner/ spouse without having to "give it up." ....as I have to...

4. I concur that EAs are channels for PAs. The best way for a woman to ensure that she won't be treated like a piece of meat in a PA is to develop the EA first. And most EAs given the longevity and proximity, will evntually move on to PAs.

5. Those EAs that do not progress onto PAs are most likely one sided. 

Older and wiser, I am a little better at recognising the steps towards an EA.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You and your W may never really agree on whether she had an affair. Words have accepted meanings, for sure, but our individual understanding of them can differ widely. And the validity of the word 'affair' depends in your case on both of you agreeing on what it actually means, not just in the main, but in the particulars as well. You may never reach that point of agreement.

If you describe what happened based on the absolute dynamic of your own personal feeling, you could choose words other than affair or betrayal - call it, for example, a knife to the heart. Nobody can argue the meaning of this with you because the validity of it is completely, solely decided by your experience & yours alone.

I know one poster here who finally and successfully described how she felt to her husband who had carried on a long-term EA: She told him simply that he had broken her heart. And how could he argue with that?


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

I just now read the posts my husband (Harken Banks) made several days ago and I just wanted to say that I did not tell him that I did not have an emotional affair. I have admitted that over and over and over both on this site as well as to him. I'm not sure what conversation he misunderstood. Yes, I did read Elly's story over the past few days and recognized in that story similarities between that situation and my own affair. I too, did not want to give up talking to a man that listened to me, seemed interested in my day, found me smart, etc. I admit that - I own that, no two ways about it. 

Since reading "Not Just Friends," reading information on this site and becoming familiar with what an EA is all about, I have never denied that I had an emotional affair. I have felt uncomfortable when he has said to friends or family, including our young daughters, that I've had an affair, because I personally think that the word affair in the general public (amongst those who do not have the deep understanding of what this is like those on this board) makes individuals immediately assume a physical affair, which I did not have. I’m not suggesting that an EA is not painful – I am intimately aware that it is. But I will also admit I am uncomfortable with the use of the term amongst our friends and family when the assumption is left hanging that I had a PA.

That being said, I’m honestly not sure what Harken heard or interpreted to understand that I was telling him I did not have an emotional affair. We have had conversations about Elly's story this week and not only did I tell him I saw similarities between my own emotional affair, but I told him that I found a number of similarities between what I believe to be Harken's own emotional affair. He, like Elly's husband, had messages back and forth with his old girlfriend over an 8 month period. His old GF, like Danielle, was literally throwing herself at him from the very beginning of their conversations after HB reached out to her via Facebook to reconnect in Feb 2011. 

In her Facebook posts in Feb 2011, old GF repeatedly proclaimed her love for HB, told him that she has loved him for 25 years, that no one else can measure up to him, that she kicks herself for not fighting for their relationship when he met me (she has never married). He gushed to her about how beautiful she is (his words “you are off the charts, stunningly beautiful. Despite that curse, you manage to be exemplary in character and eminently good, considerate, and thoughtful. To a fault.” He explained to her several times that our marriage was a struggle and she responded “You know, you’d have a lot less stress if you moved to Utah. I’d move there too” and his response “I enjoyed the thought.” She told him about dreams she was having about him (he responded that it would be nice to talk, hear her voice) and talked about getting together for a meal or drinks. She said that if they did so, he would have to do so knowing that her love for him has never died. 

She sent him photographs she had taken, seeking acknowledgement of her talents. They shared links to songs that were important to them in the past. They continued conversations for 8 months until she visited our state (she lives on the other side of the country) and they met secretly for drinks and for lunch on two occasions until he “stayed out” with her for more than five hours instead of the quick drink he expected and confessed after he got home to where he had been. I later learned through reading his texts that he had also met up with her two days earlier for drinks and lied to me about why he was late to our daughter’s soccer game. Despite my pleading not to see her again, he explained with passion in his voice that he wanted to be able to say good-bye, and he met her again for coffee the morning she left (I had told him that I couldn’t tell him what to do, but that it would hurt me deeply if he saw her again). He said he would no longer talk to her after that “last time,” although I did find out recently that he called her to "check in and make sure she got home OK" about two weeks after her visit in Sept of 2011. 

On March 1, 2012 (before my own emotional affair began), I found that he had reached out again to her on Facebook with a message that said "Happy Birthday a month and a week late." He reached out to her again when he discovered in late March that I had been communicating with another man – she was the person with whom he immediately connected. And again in June of 2012, when he was feeling uncomfortable about a trip I was taking, he reached out to her. In late June, she was back in town visiting and sent him the following text: “Hi HB. Hope you are well. I'm with (my girlfriend) having drinks. Are you still in town? Harken’s response was “ Yes. Trying to save my marriage. Turns out to be a full time job. No room for drinks.” My own personal interpretation, which I told him, was that was his code for “not now, but definitely check back later – leaving the door open. He disagreed. In August I asked him to send a no contact note to her and he very, very reluctantly agreed to do so. He said he felt bad, didn’t want to hurt her feelings, she didn’t deserve it, etc. Again, lots of similarity to Elly’s husband now. But he finally agreed to do it.

I had my first appt with a new IC today and explained to her why I was there, what had occurred – we talked about my EA as well as the Shirley Glass book (she was VERY familiar with it and said it was fantastic – in her words, it was the only book out there like it, that it focused on boundaries, etc). Near the end of the appt, I mentioned the situation with Harken and old GF and that he adamantly denies that it was, in any way, an EA. She raised her eyes and very firmly suggested that I ask him to reread the book. Yes, I absolutely and in no uncertain terms had an EA. And I firmly believe that my husband did as well.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I just now read the posts my husband (Harken Banks) made several days ago and I just wanted to say that I did not tell him that I did not have an emotional affair. I have admitted that over and over and over both on this site as well as to him. I'm not sure what conversation he misunderstood. Yes, I did read Elly's story over the past few days and recognized in that story similarities between that situation and my own affair. I too, did not want to give up talking to a man that listened to me, seemed interested in my day, found me smart, etc. I admit that - I own that, no two ways about it.
> 
> Since reading "Not Just Friends," reading information on this site and becoming familiar with what an EA is all about, I have never denied that I had an emotional affair. I have felt uncomfortable when he has said to friends or family, including our young daughters, that I've had an affair, because I personally think that the word affair in the general public (amongst those who do not have the deep understanding of what this is like those on this board) makes individuals immediately assume a physical affair, which I did not have. I’m not suggesting that an EA is not painful – I am intimately aware that it is. But I will also admit I am uncomfortable with the use of the term amongst our friends and family when the assumption is left hanging that I had a PA.
> 
> ...


AMU - I remember your original recounting of Harken's behavior with his ex. I remember feeling that I would have been very hurt and threatened if my H had done what yours did. I have exactly the same reaction to your description above. At the same time, I'm like most of the posters here in that I'm drawn to HB and am very sympathetic to his expressions of his own pain. I started reading about you both when HB began his thread & kept reading, both because his writing is so affecting and literate, and because of the pathos expressed. 

Having followed what you've both written over the last few months, I can say that you are for me living proof of the devastation that EA's can wreak - how hurtful, painful, heartbreaking they are to the person who is watching, almost helplessly, as his or her spouse is drawn intimately to someone else.

I recall HB's description of the experience with his ex-GF & how it sounded so much like what Elly's husband declares right now. Like you, Elly has watched with her heart in her throat as her husband attaches himself to someone else. For his part, Harken has had to face your interest in another M and his pain over your EA has been palpable.

You both come on periodically to post, so I assume you welcome comments and questions. At this point, I would ask if the pain you have both felt indicates to you that your feelings for one another are worth fighting for. And I would ask if that pain has become at all surmountable so that the two of you can ever talk to one another with compassion. I hope that moments like that are possible for you. I hope that you both get some relief from the pain that seems to consume you.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I will not address every misleading statement, but AMU was already in hot pursuit on March 1 when I wrote happy birthday. That was after the casino night and night at the beach. After a full day of flirty around the clock flirty facebooking about some out of bound topics in which AMU was clearly chasing after this guy. What I did was wrong. Maybe an emotional affair. I haven't thought so. Hopefully we will work through that in therapy. The 8 months of facebooking included a total of about 35 messages from me, some simply one line or a link. Not a lot of volume looked at that way. Still wrong. AMU has seen every FB message or text between us. So have a few of my friends and my counselor who I have consulted for perspective. It hurt AMU. More than I was aware until all this came up. I deeply regret hurting her. It was inconsiderate and wrong. Still, it does rankle me when she seems to want to draw equivalence and go on the attack about old gf. Those who have read my initial thread know AMU and POSOM conspired to hide their relationship from me for a period of months and tried, to the extent I became aware of their communications, to convince me that I was being controlling and ridiculous in objecting. Both wrong, but in my view very different. There isn't anything in my communication with old gf that I am embarrassed about other than the fact of my insensitivity to AMU and clearly wading into a dangerous place I should not have been, like Elly's husband. My NC note to old gf:

"Old GF, I love my wife and family dearly. My communication with you and meeting with you when you were in town was inconsiderate, selfish, and reckless. I hurt my wife, and I deeply regret that. I opened the door, and I should not have. I am closing it now. Please do not respond to this message or contact me in any other manner. Sincerely, Harken"

I love AllMessedUp. I love our family. I am committed to both. We are getting back into MC.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Great post Harken.

I hope you both can forgive and move forward, and not further indulge in this ongoing series of depositions and trials.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> In her Facebook posts in Feb 2011, old GF repeatedly proclaimed her love for HB, told him that she has loved him for 25 years, that no one else can measure up to him, that she kicks herself for not fighting for their relationship when he met me (she has never married). He gushed to her about how beautiful she is (his words “you are off the charts, stunningly beautiful. Despite that curse, you manage to be exemplary in character and eminently good, considerate, and thoughtful. To a fault.” He explained to her several times that our marriage was a struggle and she responded “You know, you’d have a lot less stress if you moved to Utah. I’d move there too” and his response “I enjoyed the thought.” She told him about dreams she was having about him (he responded that it would be nice to talk, hear her voice) and talked about getting together for a meal or drinks. She said that if they did so, he would have to do so knowing that her love for him has never died.


I don't always read as carefully as I should. I will preface this with the statement that I love AllMessedUp and we are both trying very hard to keep our marriage and family together and to start taking better care of each other. I did not ever discuss with or describe to OldGF the challenges in our marriage. I made some oblique statements about the grass always being greener in response to OldGF's complaints about how hard it was to be single. 

Here is some representative text from the FB exchange (to be clear, not good. I am way out of bounds here. But not discussing my marriage with OldGF)

Old GF: Did I lose you? I was only kidding about Utah! 

Harken Banks: You did not, and I enjoyed the thought. I've just been dealing with the usual chaos and will write.

Old GF: I'm sorry, Harken. I wish my life had more chaos in it. To be honest and completely bare my soul, I'm pretty lonely more often than I'd like to admit.

Harken Banks: Shouldn't be so, and the grass is always greener. The chaos is not all good. I would relate some of today's to illustrate, but just the retelling might trigger an aneurysm.

Etc.

I may yet post the entire conversation in its own thread so AMU and I can simply post citations to the offending statement.

I love you and only you, AllMessedUp.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

DayDream said:


> To me, EA's are just as bad as PA's. Bottom line.


This. EAs are time you wont get back. A physical affair, while just as damning, can get a response of forgiveness or penalty. EA's can cause marriages to be in limbo.

An EA, since there is no physical portion, leaves the person who is hurting in the hole, alone, thinking what they did that was so wrong. At least, that's how it felt for me.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I think what Harken and his wife are struggling with is that while AMU definitely did several things that most people would consider a betrayal of the marriage, Harken believes his own relationship with former GF cannot even be remotely compared.

I think it's a useless exercise to compare them--and this is why. Of course sexual flirting is worse than what Harken's typed up here. Of course.

But these things can't be entirely measured that way.

I'll give an example of something I've not mentioned before but that I've been pondering recently as some sort of 'far back root cause' of my H's unhappiness in our marriage that turned him outward. About 6 years ago, I started following (via news) a lesser-known stage actor. I thought he was super handsome and an awesome actor and I joined a fan forum for him. I would talk about him from time to time with my H (never discussing how handsome he was, frankly I didn't want to admit that was most of the actor's charm). But in retrospect I can see my H was horribly hurt by this. In some writing for MC just a few months ago he mentioned this as an example of how I study up on anything that interests me. But I was smart enough to read through the lines and to acknowledge, that fandom really hurt him.

Now I can sit here and say, it was outrageous and ridiculous for my H to be hurt that way. And no one on earth would compare what I did with what he did. Most people would not consider what I did a betrayal at all.

But the point is--my HUSBAND felt betrayed by it and it HURT him, obviously a great deal if he's still thinking about it all these years later. 

So Harken--I'd stop trying to label what you said / did with old GF. You are man enough to admit it was a bad idea--at very best a risky proposition. Just acknowledge (as I think you have) that communicating with someone who openly expressed romantic love for you (apparently) hurt your wife quite a bit. 1,000x over, it's no excuse for what AMU did. But acknowledging her hurt is REAL over this is a part of the healing.

But at the same time, AMU must see that the two are not the same. They just are not. And latching on to what Harken did as an excuse for very inappropriate crossing marital boundaries just does not represent any sort of progress in taking ownership for what was done. But Harken, it does seem to me that she is waiting for you to acknowledge that you hurt her, deeply, whether you meant to or not. 

Logic shouldn't be the driving issue here. In _my opinion_ the two situations AREN'T factually equal. But it's simply no use to say, "AMU ought not to be as hurt by my exchange with old GF as I was with her exchanges with the OM." That is an argument that cannot be won and it's a waste of effort to try.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Since the title of this thread is 'EA?,' I will ask a question that I know no one can answer definitively, but nonetheless would really love to have some insight into.

Look at this text from AMU as she describes the conversation from Harken's old gf:

"In her Facebook posts in Feb 2011, old GF repeatedly proclaimed her love for HB, told him that she has loved him for 25 years, that no one else can measure up to him, that she kicks herself for not fighting for their relationship when he met me (she has never married)."

So, I ask WTH? How does someone go fishing so blatantly, knowing that the person they're fishing for is married with children? I would really like someone to explain to me how so many people seem to think it's OK to talk to married 'friends' this way. 

Harken's ex was way, way out of line & I have absolutely no understanding of how anyone can feel that it's within reasonable bounds to do what she did.

The usual answers are selfishness & compartmentalization, whatever those two things really mean.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Since the title of this thread is 'EA?,' I will ask a question that I know no one can answer definitively, but nonetheless would really love to have some insight into.
> 
> Look at this text from AMU as she describes the conversation from Harken's old gf:
> 
> ...


I think this gets into the nitty-gritty of what was actually said, versus how the communications were summarized.

I've long felt that what Harken did was inappropriate and in other threads of his I've brought up that this sort of thing leads to an emotional affair (whether it never reached that point, or not).

However, I think that this is a very sore point and precisely what AMU and Harken are struggling over--they are each spending their time debating over who did what to whom and which was worse.

So that was the point of my post. I don't think the two can be equated (if you've read all the details of all the posts). I may stand corrected if the full correspondence of both relationships are ever printed. But that is what I gathered so far.

But so what? What do the two of them gain by weighing and measuring "which was worse?" or "who hurts more?" Certainly not any sort of reconciliation worth its salt.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I think this gets into the nitty-gritty of what was actually said, versus how the communications were summarized.
> 
> I've long felt that what Harken did was inappropriate and in other threads of his I've brought up that this sort of thing leads to an emotional affair (whether it never reached that point, or not).
> 
> ...


I've followed their posts as well & have had a similar reading of their situation. (My question above was essentially an aside.)

I also don't think, given what we've read, that their two behaviors can be equated. And perhaps you can help me here with what I'm about to try to say, because I find it hard to articulate.

There is sometimes an element of leveling the playing field that goes some way toward neutralizing the humiliation and hurt that a BS feels upon learning of an affair. People talk about revenge A's, but I'm not referring to that here. I'm referring to, e.g., AMU's focus on Harken's exchange with his ex, which perhaps mitigates AMU's shame for herself (?) - and Harken's admission that he, too, did something that was out of bounds, which perhaps lessens his feelings of humiliation re AMU's EA.

Is this sort of leveling helpful in a reconciliation? So much of the pain is about that unequal dynamic between spouses that the cheater has created.

I am no doubt expressing this poorly, since my own feeling about it is confused & unformed...


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> There is sometimes an element of leveling the playing field that goes some way toward neutralizing the humiliation and hurt that a BS feels upon learning of an affair. People talk about revenge A's, but I'm not referring to that here. I'm referring to, e.g., AMU's focus on Harken's exchange with his ex, which perhaps mitigates AMU's shame for herself (?) - and Harken's admission that he, too, did something that was out of bounds, which perhaps lessens his feelings of humiliation re AMU's EA.
> 
> Is this sort of leveling helpful in a reconciliation? So much of the pain is about that unequal dynamic between spouses that the cheater has created.
> 
> I am no doubt expressing this poorly, since my own feeling about it is confused & unformed...


I think it does help. In many cases of reconciliation that I've seen, it helps that one spouse did something wrong (maybe not an affair, but something hurtful). It just does, whether we like to admit it or not.

I think some of the worst cases are the ones where one spouse truly did nothing wrong. And they really do exist. In those cases, the cheating spouse obviously has serious issues that led to their bad choices. The loyal spouse is at a loss--because what, precisely, can they ever do differently to prevent this from happening again? The answer is, nothing. The issue lies entirely within the control of the cheater--whether they will admit what they did was wrong, whether they will seek help in therapy, whether they will change.

In these latter cases, the loyal spouse is frequently an 'enabler' or 'co-dependent,' i.e., they try desperately to "fix" their cheating spouse in various ways and they try to "fix" the marriage, but the real answer lies in the fact that the cheater has to want to change, and they have to do the changing for themselves.

Personally, I would not trade places with such a loyal spouse. (But that is my general life philosophy anyways, play the cards you're dealt, don't worry about everyone else's.)


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I think it does help. In many cases of reconciliation that I've seen, it helps that one spouse did something wrong (maybe not an affair, but something hurtful). It just does, whether we like to admit it or not.


I have this sense as well, although it's not borne of experience, just instinct.

Somehow, for me, AMU's and HB's tit-for-tat on this allows them to speak to one another, not really as equals, but closer to equals than they otherwise could if HB hadn't crossed his own line in the past. And this seems to keep them talking and engaged, since she is shamed but not abject & his pride is battered but not destroyed.

HB, you say you love your W through all of this & this is very heartening to hear.


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## SelfTweaks (Nov 11, 2012)

H20 is still H20 whether it's water, steam, or ice.

In the same manner, an affair is still an affair. You just have to know which side considers which form worse.

For a man, it's worse when they have a physical affair because all a guy is doing is stroking his ego. A man is physically stimulated and he likes to think that he still has the ability to attract woman and the sex is the prize that validates that notion. A guy can do this all day everyday without a single bit of emotional attachment.

For a woman its worse when they have an emotional affair, because they are emotionally stimulated. When it comes to a relationship, a guy will marry a woman just on the fact that they look good, the other details they work out later. A woman will never, ever enter into a long term relationship based upon how a person looks. It is always based on how you make them feel. A guy could have the looks of Brad Pitt and the body of Adonis but a woman will not give him a second glance if her heart belongs to someone.

This is where a lot of husbands miss the boat when it comes to their wives cheating. A man can get complacent in a marriage and think that just because they pay the bills, are there for the children, and stay at home on the weekends, they marriage is great. But you landed her because when you first started dating you made her feel like a woman, alive and the center of your universe by respecting her and her opinions and beliefs. Somewhere along the way you stopped doing that and in doing so, you left her feeling unwanted, unloved and alone - prime pickings for someone to come along and be your replacement. So if a woman becomes emotionally involved with another man, the marriage is essentially over at that point because it's just a matter of time before she sleeps with him.

That is the difference - and both are just as devastating once you understand the parameters.


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## AMU (Jul 19, 2012)

I apparently missed several updates to this thread which I just read today. I love HB and I want to work through this together – we finally got back into marriage counseling last week and I’m grateful that he’s willing to be there with me. It seems people think I’m trying to compare our actions. I am not, and have not, tried to say that his relationship with old GF was “the same” as my own emotional affair. I don’t think that they are. And I have NEVER tried to say that my actions were justified – they are not. My choices were my choices – very bad ones at that.

But HB has told me over and over “You did this, you did this to us, you got us to this place.” And I am frustrated that through all his reading, his time on this board, his insight into other relationships here, he does not understand or appreciate how much pain I have had from his own actions or how he has contributed to us being where we are. How I didn’t eat for weeks following the discovery of HB’s interactions with old GF back in Sept 2011, how I have monitored his Facebook and phone since that date, how painful and terrifying it was to hear several times in the months following the discovery of their communications that he didn’t love me and we were only together for the kids. How devastating it was when I saw he got back in touch with her in March of this year.

This isn’t just any old GF. This is someone who he had a relationship with on or off for years and years in high school and college and who he had just reconciled with (and starting sleeping with) again in the month before we met 13 years ago. He broke it off with her to be with me – and I’ve felt uncomfortable and threatened by her throughout our relationship, since she continued to ask folks about him and express her interest, she is stunningly beautiful and has never married. 

Yes, perhaps I need to have more self confidence. But it was just two weeks ago that HB sent a fellow male TAMer a link to old GF’s modeling website with the words “just for fun” so that TAMer could see what she looked like. And of course that individual said wow, wow and then showed his wife and said even his wife says she is incredible. Hopefully the women on this site will appreciate how painful to the core that was – after ALL that we have been through, including how painful this old GF stuff has been to me, HB is still looking for the stroking of people about “wow” your old GF really is hot. In the same month that he called me a fat cow. 

Because it sounds as if some folks on this thread feel that my summaries may mischaracterize old GF's words, here are the initial posts, including HB’s first six (he has several times pointed out he responded to her only 42 times). The first post came from him.

Harken Banks: Hi. Just wanted to say hi.


Old Girlfriend: And hello back at you. Thought of being in touch for lunch or a drink whilst I was home for nearly 3 weeks during the holidays....but didn't know if it would be appropriate. Nonetheless, it would have been nice to see you and catch up. Hope all things are good with you. I think of you often. 
All the best, GF

Harken Banks: We're adults now, and we ought to be able to make our own decisions on things like lunch. I think of you almost always and almost always hestitate to say hi knowing that I have made enough of a mess of things already.

Old Girlfriend: Oh HB...what do you feel you've made a mess of? I just don't know what the boundaries are with you and wasn't sure it was ok to reach out. Please don't feel that way. You didn't make a mess, you just went with your heart. I was very hurt and surprised at the time since I felt you and I were rebuilding something, but I understood and forgave. They say that everything happens for a reason. I have learned to accept that I may not ever know or like the reason, but I have to accept it.

I have loved you for 25 years. You truly were my ideal in so many ways, HB. You set the bar very high for me and I have not met anyone who has even come close to you. A (old town) friend (he lives in LA now) and his girlfriend came down to visit me this weekend. I was telling her about you last night, and found some pics of you on facebook. I was taken by how young you still look and you are so very handsome (except for the beard, chunky turtleneck sweater and captains hat-hehehe). I can't help but look at pictures of you and get butterflies in my stomach when I see you. So, if we ever did have lunch or that drink, you'd have to be ok with the fact the my crush on you never died.

Have I said enough? Or perhaps too much....?

I'll wait another 10 days for your reply. And if I don't get one, well, I guess I'll just have to accept that. ;-) 

xo GF

Old Girlfriend: By the way, have you seen this?? (Article attached)

Harken Banks: I had not. Fun stuff, thank you. You are now and have always been out of my league. I am flattered, undeservedly fortunate, and baffled that you ever paid me any attention.

Old Girlfriend: Are you just trying to make me feel better? YOU'RE flattered? Out of your league? Please HB. Are you writing me these messages from prison? First of all, I'm not sure I believe in "leagues". Secondly, you were always the most accomplished guy I ever knew, in addition to the dashing good looks. In what way could I possibly be out of your league? And anyway would it (the whole supposed "league thing) really matter anyway if we cared about each other? I think not.
Maybe you should have given us more of a chance 12+ years ago and we wouldn't have to be having this "electronic banter"...instead we'd be just a pillow away, talking about how our days went and what we need to pack for our long weekend at (the ski mountain)...
I could slap myself for not moving home to give it a chance...even if you were seeing someone else. That's one thing I should have never just "accepted". 
By the way, Happy (belated) Valentine's Day. I will never forget the Valentine's Day card you gave me in 1986 (25 yrs ago-WOW!) It had an Iguana with rain boots and an umbrella on the front. The inside read, "Iguana love you, come rain or shine". How sweet. 
My memories will always be sweet.  

Old Girlfriend: HB, I owe you an apology. My previous email was inappropriate and disrespectful. I said too much and I shouldn't have gone there. Ughh.

Harken Banks: No. No apology. Nothing you wrote struck me as inappropriate or disrespectful. Or as too much, though you have certainly heard that from me before. I started this conversation, and I worry about interfering with what is going on in your life, but I am glad we are in touch and I always enjoy hearing from you. We have shared a lot and my own feeling is that with all that we have been through together we cannot overshare.

Old Girlfriend: Ok, then answer my questions! Hahaha!

Harken Banks: Starting where?

Old Girlfriend: And HB, there is nothing going on in my life that can be interfered with. No husband, no children, no boyfriend. California is just about the worst place to be single. There is a large deficiency of quality men, and I am just about over the left coast, suffice it to say. Though it was cold, my 3 weeks back home were very nice. More than ever I am missing family, my old friends and my homeland. I spent a lot of time with the dear (girlfriend’s name) while I was home. Many evenings of drinking (too much) wine and cooking together, talking about babies and life. She and her husband have been trying to get pregnant, in every way, conventional and otherwise. I appreciated being able to be there and supportive of her in a way that her other friends haven't been able to since I can in some ways relate. I always wanted kids, but my timing has always been so ****ty! Too soon, too late...I am not good at hitting targets or timing my shots!

Thank you HB, for making me feel at ease. 
Your turn! 

Old Girlfriend: Start with everything I have written that ends with a question mark!

Harken Banks: I took at least some of those as rhetorical. Unless you want to be more specific, we'll have to work from here forward. (GF’s name), in case it needs to be said again (and it will, needed or not), by any standard, you are off the charts, stunningly beautiful. Despite that curse, you manage to be exemplary in character and eminently good, considerate, and thoughtful. To a fault. Things that shouldn't need to be said and I'll stop the gushing for now, but it seems you may need a dose of reality on those fronts. For measure, I'll add balanced, sensible, and smart, but I know that you don't need me or anyone else to tell you that. I would guess that many people you run into are not immediately ready for the disconnect between you and the personality they anticipate. Right now it is windy, cold, and icy back East. SoCal sounds much better in comparison. Try not to be as hard on your would be suitors as you are on yourself.

Old Girlfriend: Smoke and mirrors, but thanks for the flattery! I'll take it!

Old Girlfriend: Tell me how YOU are!! 

Old Girlfriend: And as for all of the above aforementioned compliments, are you drawing this from recent experience (of me) or from years past? I mean, you're right about some of it, and I don't feel arrogant in admitting it. I know I am a good person, considerate and thoughtful. And yes, perhaps at times to a fault. But I'd rather be those things and risk those "faults" than to be any other way. 
And as for my "would-be suitors", I am not so hard on them. At least not any more than they deserve! Ha! Like I said, the bar has been set high....very, very high.

Old Girlfriend: By the way, this is FUN!!!! 

Perhaps others on this board will find this to be harmless conversation. When I read it, especially it in light of their on again, off again history, I found it devastating. Especially terribly painful to see him gushing to this woman, since he finds it very hard to express his feelings to me or others. And that was just their first two weeks of posts.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

AllMessedUp said:


> I apparently missed several updates to this thread which I just read today. I love HB and I want to work through this together – we finally got back into marriage counseling last week and I’m grateful that he’s willing to be there with me. It seems people think I’m trying to compare our actions. I am not, and have not, tried to say that his relationship with old GF was “the same” as my own emotional affair. I don’t think that they are. And I have NEVER tried to say that my actions were justified – they are not. My choices were my choices – very bad ones at that.
> 
> But HB has told me over and over “You did this, you did this to us, you got us to this place.” And I am frustrated that through all his reading, his time on this board, his insight into other relationships here, he does not understand or appreciate how much pain I have had from his own actions or how he has contributed to us being where we are. How I didn’t eat for weeks following the discovery of HB’s interactions with old GF back in Sept 2011, how I have monitored his Facebook and phone since that date, how painful and terrifying it was to hear several times in the months following the discovery of their communications that he didn’t love me and we were only together for the kids. How devastating it was when I saw he got back in touch with her in March of this year.
> 
> ...


He has nothing to lose when talking to this ex-gf, of course he feels far more safe in what he reveals. I'm not going to tell you that your feelings are wrong, but I wouldn't be devistated by this.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Looks like HB vs AMU

And the winner is...not their marriage!!!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Nobody finds this harmless conversation. It's painful to read.

I commented at some point earlier that I wondered what possesses people to have conversations like this with married friends. HB has taken responsibility for his end, but I repeat that the ex's role in this is condemnable. Yes, I know, she's really a nice person, etc., etc., but sorry, you don't do what she did, just as HB shouldn't have done what he did. And AMU shouldn't have done what she did. And so it goes.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Saki said:


> Looks like HB vs AMU
> 
> And the winner is...not their marriage!!!


Been awhile since I checked in on these two. I see not much has changed, but at least they are going to MC now. Hopefully that stops the war.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Saki said:


> Looks like HB vs AMU


Strike that. Reverse it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Saki said:


> Looks like HB vs AMU
> 
> And the winner is...not their marriage!!!


Agreed....

What is the point in all this?

Lawyers in love.....what a fiasco! These two can't agree on the color of sh*t. And each one will fight to the bitter end to prove he/she is right. 

No humility, no forgiveness, no contrition on either of their parts. I feel bad for their kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed....
> 
> What is the point in all this?
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I did not come to TAM/CWI to argue with my wife. I can do that at home. I came here trying to understand what the hell was going on. Thank you for helping me with that. At this point it is fairly clear to me that we should be working on learning how to care for each other.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> Nobody finds this harmless conversation. It's painful to read.
> 
> I commented at some point earlier that I wondered what possesses people to have conversations like this with married friends. HB has taken responsibility for his end, but I repeat that the ex's role in this is condemnable. *Yes, I know, she's really a nice person, etc., etc., but sorry, you don't do what she did, *just as HB shouldn't have done what he did. And AMU shouldn't have done what she did. And so it goes.


I don't think the gf (aka interloper) is nice at all. She knows what she is doing....meddling in someone else's marriage. And she's probably getting off on the stress she knows she is causing the wife.....as they normally do.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> He has nothing to lose when talking to this ex-gf, of course he feels far more safe in what he reveals. I'm not going to tell you that your feelings are wrong, but I wouldn't be devistated by this.


 I would have been absolutely devastated, and crushed. These conversations are appalling. Part of their risk and danger and deepness lies in the fact that these two people already know each other and are sexually attracted to one another.

I would have been so devastated, in fact, that I would have made damn sure not to ever do such a thing to another human being, simply on principle of fully understanding the pain that it would cause. But things didn't play out that way, now did they?



bandit.45 said:


> Agreed....
> 
> What is the point in all this?
> 
> ...


I started to post various responses, but what I said on page 4 still stands. And bandit has summarized the situation so well, there is nothing more to say.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Strike that. Reverse it.


Wow really??? 

Here's the solution to your problem: act like a man.

You can be right 

you can be married. 

Choose one.

"I did not have an affair with the woman in the red dress!! How dare you accuse me of such nonsense!!! Her dress was black!!!!"

:scratchhead:


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Strike that. Reverse it.


Dear God. This is case in point as to bandits post. Can't even agree who is arguing with who!

Harken, you are a smart individual. Observe what we are observing, and put away the wordsmithing you are using to show you understand, and instead prove your understanding with your actions.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Wonka. Or Dahl, if you want to get technical.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Fans of the HB/AMU show, I wanted to post a brief note to let you know that we have had a really nice day today. We actually have quite a lot of them. We talk about important things. The most important and difficult between us. Today we managed to do that with a lot of love and respect. It isn’t always easy. We disagreed, but we listened to each other, absorbed, considered, opened, and recognized that the intersect of what we share subsumes most, if not all, of our life together. Apart from the heavy, we also talk and laugh about the beautiful things in our everyday life. Every day. There have been times each of us has separately worried that time spent in TAM has not been helpful or healthy. And I think there is a danger in too much, in loss of perspective. But TAM and all of you have helped both of us to see ourselves from outside the prism of our own experience, to recognize and disarm some of our defenses and broaden our understanding of ourselves and each other. To see and appreciate each other in some of the ways we had lost sight of. Not to worry regulars, stay tuned. We'll be back to your regular programming tomorrow. Or the next day.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is nice, HB. I'm glad that you and AMU are having nice days together. Best of luck going forward.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

So glad to hear this.

Wish you the best.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I sometimes think that there should be 4 categories of affairs instead of the 2
> 
> EA- lots of verbal and/or cyber affirmations of love or heavy flirtations
> CSA- cybersex affair where sexting and cyber sex occurs
> ...


I think you should add to that list "Inappropriate Relationship" which is the road to the rest of the list if not stopped in time.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I think you should add to that list "Inappropriate Relationship" which is the road to the rest of the list if not stopped in time.


Or one that at least puts you in dangerous place you should not be. I had one of those.

Our counselor posited as a definition of an affair any relationship that comes between you and your spouse -that creates, exploits, or expands emotional distance. I think there is something to that, with some refinemment. I think the relationship would have to be with someone who is at least potentially on some level a rival for your affection. Anyway, it seems at this point to be her view that once you have established that a relationship satisfies enough of the criteria to qualify as an affair, it is not so meaningful to categorize or differentiate among types of affair.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

AllMessedUp said:


> In her Facebook posts in Feb 2011, *old GF repeatedly proclaimed her love for HB, told him that she has loved him for 25 years, that no one else can measure up to him, that she kicks herself for not fighting for their relationship when he met me (she has never married). *He gushed to her about how beautiful she is (his words “you are off the charts, stunningly beautiful. Despite that curse, you manage to be exemplary in character and eminently good, considerate, and thoughtful. To a fault.” He explained to her several times that our marriage was a struggle and she responded “You know, you’d have a lot less stress if you moved to Utah. I’d move there too” and his response “I enjoyed the thought.” She told him about dreams she was having about him (he responded that it would be nice to talk, hear her voice) and talked about getting together for a meal or drinks. She said that if they did so, he would have to do so knowing that her love for him has never died.


I was thinking about this.... that i, why is it losers that make themselves open to affairs? Yet and still, why are they so interesting?

Why did HarkenBanks choose not to marry her? Why after 25 years has she found no one else to marry? Or does she talk about all the guys she could have married?

And one more thing.......****she kicks herself for not fighting for their relationship when he met me ****

Were there some overlapping relationships going on here?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I was thinking about this.... that i, why is it losers that make themselves open to affairs? Yet and still, why are they so interesting?
> 
> Why did HarkenBanks choose not to marry her? Why after 25 years has she found no one else to marry? Or does she talk about all the guys she could have married?
> 
> ...


I can answer some of those questions. Why did I not marry Old GF? The thought never crossed my mind. In any event, I fell in love with AllMessedUp. And never fell out of love. I was seeing Old GF and a few other women on a nonexclusive basis when I met AMU. Since I met AMU, there has been no one else. There was no overlap.

Why do losers make themselves open to affairs? I do not know. If you are referring to me, I was not thinking that I was making myself open to an affair. I had feelings for Old GF that were not sexual or romantic. We kind of grew up together and with many of the same people and friends we still have today. I was certainly not seeing the connection with Old GF as a threat to my marriage. That was naive. I was thinking it was catching up at a time when there was enough distance and maturity, when I was settled with a wife and 4 daughters, that we could be old friends. Not good judgment. I'm not defending it.

Why has Old GF not married? I don't know. I would be happy for her if she did.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Maybe for my own research and curiosity, I will keep track of other people's situations. Sigma said that his EA partner was someone whom he dated before he met his future wife but was concurrently going through a divorce when contacted Sigma.

I also find it interesting for example when older women fret about the fact that their husband is fooling around with someone younger and, possibly, more attractive. to which I think, if this woman was really so hot, why is she fooling around with a married man when supposedly, there are so many younger men who are still single? Well, it might be because no one her age was interested.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Also, I often race through posts without paying attention to what specifically has been written. There was a pattern in my Facebook correspondence with Old GF where she would write and prompt me for a response and it would be some time, some times several weeks, before I would get back. As for the Utah comment, here is a bit more of what was written:

Old GF on March 24, 2011:

Sounds like you have much more than the average Joe, a beautiful family, a rewarding career and all of the creature comforts... and certainy more than I, but I also know that the grass is always greener.
You know, you'd have a lot less stress if you moved to Utah. I'd move there too...(hahaha) and of course, the skiing is incredible! 
I'd love to hear more about your kids.  


Old GF on March 27, 2011: Did I lose you? I was only kidding about Utah!  

HB on March 27 2011: You did not, and I enjoyed the thought. I've just been dealing with the usual chaos and will write.

And, in case it's a question, I never wrote to her anything about my kids or marriage.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

***And, in case it's a question, I never wrote to her anything about my kids or marriage.***

So I guess she wanted to give the impression that you had already told her a lot about yourself and your family. One of the tools of an EA partner.......


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Thank you, Next Time Around. I am trying to be open-minded about this process. I admit to a bit of frustration that after all that has occurred, before and after (not to mention during!) the inappropriate relationships, there is so much focus on the Old GF thing.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Thank you, Next Time Around. I am trying to be open-minded about this process. I admit to a bit of frustration that after all that has occurred, before and after (not to mention during!) the inappropriate relationships, there is so much focus on the Old GF thing.


of course, I would be interested in it since I am a woman. In my failed marriage, I feel that my exH was way too chummy with a few women, his ex gf and then the wives of some of his friends. They were so dismissive of me.

and then years later, having to deal with this "friend" stuff with my future fiance and his fly by night ex. So I am very interested in how women worm their way into a man's life.

Did your exGf ever say something like "my friendship is with you. Your wife has nothing to do with it."


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> of course, I would be interested in it since I am a woman. In my failed marriage, I feel that my exH was way too chummy with a few women, his ex gf and then the wives of some of his friends. They were so dismissive of me.
> 
> and then years later, having to deal with this "friend" stuff with my future fiance and his fly by night ex. So I am very interested in how women worm their way into a man's life.."


Afraid I do not have a lot of insight. Looking back, I can see that Old GF was presenting openings, holding the door, and waiting for me to walk through. That did not happen. 



NextTimeAround said:


> Did your exGf ever say something like "my friendship is with you. Your wife has nothing to do with it."


No. I never discussed my wife or marriage with Old GF. And didn't have all that much communication with her. About anything for that matter.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Did you want to save her from something? I'm convinced that vulnerable woman are quite seductive to men.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

There was a lot of difficult history. I was directly involved in a lot of the hard things and pain she experienced. That we experienced. The thought never crossed my mind that she needed saving or that I might be equipped even to save anyone. Old GF is quite capable of taking care of herself. I just happen to carry a fair amount of guilt.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> There was a lot of difficult history. I was directly involved in a lot of the hard things and pain she experienced. That we experienced. The thought never crossed my mind that she needed saving or that I might be equipped even to save anyone. Old GF is quite capable of taking care of herself. *I just happen to carry a fair amount of guilt*.


guilt for what? this is where I suspect where you have as my fiance had, misplaced guilt.

My fiancé said that he felt that he had led his EA on. Even though he knew that she was doing online dating and had started dating one guy in particular. (ETA) and she knew about me and asked about me contstantly. Including about our sex life. I can see in the text messages that she offered to stop dating him for my fiancé ...... at a time when my fiancé was turning away from her. That was caused by the fact that she refused to return a kiss to him (so I guess he realised he was being friendzoned) and then she advised him to drop me due to the fact that we had not had sex in a while. So even though she couldn't kiss him, she wanted to make him think tht things were worse with me.

I asked my fiancé, were you ever concerned that you might be leading me on? I don't remember the answer but I also don't remember being satisfied with what I heard. 

Funny how when both men and women get in the fog they are making unfair comparisons. I told my fiancé that I spend my half my week with you and I turn down dates with other men. If you must continue contact (possibly dates) with this other woman, then I need to be moving on. 

In other words, if the few moments that he could steal with this other woman (who now had a boyfriend) was worth more that I was giving him, then I needed to be going.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Maybe my feelings of guilt are misplaced. I have heard it said that all guilt is misplaced. That guilt is an unhelpful emotion. Some of the Old GF history is in Initial Foray. I don't see what is to be gained in rehashing much more of it. Thinking about it now, I realize I have some feelings of guilt about several other long term relationships and how they ended. Or how I ended them. About the hurt that I caused. The Old GF situation was different in at least 1 very important respect. 

Good luck in your search for answers. I don't think I have them. Or even any helpful directions as to where they may be found.


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## Seeking Reconciliation (Nov 5, 2012)

AMU & HB, thanks so much for sharing your story on here. It's giving me a bit of a perspective on my situation.

i'm really glad you guys are going through reconciliation and I hope it will all work out well for you both. I also hope you both appreciate each other for willing to put forth the effort to save your relationship. i admire you both for your love of each other and your courage. 

I wish so much that my SO can be like AMU and give me a chance to talk to him, to see him, to explain or just to talk and process together, but he has gone completely incognito.  

My chats with my X didn't involve feelings, or hashing of the past or either one of us hinting at ever seeing each other again or meeting up, or having feelings for each other, or missing what we had in the past like HB convo with Xgf. The chat 3 months into me dating SO was sexually explicit, but it wasn't like, i want to do this to you and that to you, it was more of stupid sex talk like, sure i'd like to make out with another girl, ok i guess i can let you watch if you want, and ok you can let me know if you find another girl willing to make out with both of us. And yes 3 months into my relationship with SO i did try to vett SO with the X, and that is absolutely terrible, and I can understand why SO thinks i've "destroyed (him) on all levels" I'm sure ALL very hurtful for SO to read, and I know what i did was wrong, a bad choice, and still a betrayal, but I can't help but wish that SO had it in his heart for us to talk about it. And to realize that I had no intentions to ever seeing X again nor he with me, and there is absolutely NO feelings involved. familiarity yes, no feelings. this is very obvious in the chats. 

Sorry I'm venting on your thread. It's been 6 weeks since we've seen each other and 4 weeks since we've had contact and I just wish we could have contact.

Good luck AMU & HB.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Seeking Reconciliation said:


> AMU & HB, thanks so much for sharing your story on here. It's giving me a bit of a perspective on my situation.
> 
> i'm really glad you guys are going through reconciliation and I hope it will all work out well for you both. I also hope you both appreciate each other for willing to put forth the effort to save your relationship. i admire you both for your love of each other and your courage.
> 
> ...


Good Luck, Seeking Reconciliation. I think you may be missing much of the picture on the HB/AMU show.


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## Seeking Reconciliation (Nov 5, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Good Luck, Seeking Reconciliation. I think you may be missing much of the picture on the HB/AMU show.


sorry-i don't think i know what you mean? I read through all the posts on here, and understand that you had contact with XGF which hurt AMU very much, and then AMU had an EA that was very hurtful to you. and now you guys are working on reconciling, which is oh so admirable. 

I'm not sure what i'm missing.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Seeking Reconciliation said:


> sorry-i don't think i know what you mean? I read through all the posts on here, and understand that you had contact with XGF which hurt AMU very much, and then AMU had an EA that was very hurtful to you. and now you guys are working on reconciling, which is oh so admirable.
> 
> I'm not sure what i'm missing.


Start here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray.html#post875301


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## Seeking Reconciliation (Nov 5, 2012)

I see. long challenging road you've gone through and are still going through now. But still... it is so admirable that you both are willing to work on reconciling.

I know I am seeking reconciling, but sometimes, I just wish to be able to talk to him about it. but he's not ready and i am feeling soooooooo frustrated.

limbo sucks. 

sending lots of well wishes your way.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Seeking Reconciliation said:


> The chat 3 months into me dating SO was sexually explicit, but it wasn't like, i want to do this to you and that to you, it was more of stupid sex talk like, sure i'd like to make out with another girl, ok i guess i can let you watch if you want, and ok you can let me know if you find another girl willing to make out with both of us.
> 
> *And yes 3 months into my relationship with SO i did try to vett SO with the X,* and that is absolutely terrible, and I can understand why SO thinks i've "destroyed (him) on all levels"
> 
> .


Maybe you should start your own thread.

Is this a new relationship that you killed off by trying to bring the ex around?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

SR, I truly wish you the best. I promise to read your threads and offer whatever I can. It seems to have been a common theme in my threads that a poster will come along, read the last several posts, and project their judgment or situation. It's well intentioned, but not helpful.


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## Seeking Reconciliation (Nov 5, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> SR, I truly wish you the best. I promise to read your threads and offer whatever I can. It seems to have been a common theme in my threads that a poster will come along, read the last several posts, and project their judgment or situation. It's well intentioned, but not helpful.


i hope i didn't come across as that. i did read all of this thread, and a lot of the thread you shared the link with me. and I still stand by my conviction that even though you guys have gone through a very difficult road, you are making the decision and taking the steps on working things out with each other.


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## Seeking Reconciliation (Nov 5, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Maybe you should start your own thread.
> 
> Is this a new relationship that you killed off by trying to bring the ex around?


i have my own thread. 3 actually. In a low moment of my life, I became self destructive and made the bad choice of contacting my X. I don't know if that answers your question. 

i didn't mean to go off on a tangent here about myself, I was just trying to compliment and show my admiration for HB & AMU and their decision to R. (will stop talking about my situation now)


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