# Anyone can have an affair



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I wanted to respond to this notion in another thread, but figured someone would get their nose in a snit and report it for threadjacking.

So starting a new one.

"Anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances"

IMO, if by circumstances you include someone tying you down and forcing your genitalia into/onto someone elses, then sure. Otherwise......nope. The statement isn't true.

Now the key word in that sentence being "can". "Can" I under the right circumstances? Anyone "can". But "will" they.

But adding "under the right circumstances", to me, says that someone WILL cheat.

So no, if presented with an opportune moment/circumstance, not everyone can cheat because its not in their character.

To me that would be like saying, since almost everyone owns a knife of some sort, that anyone "can" stab someone in the heart if someone pisses them off enough. Would that be true? You think all of you "can" or "would" stab someone in the chest "under the right circumstances"?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Agree.

I for one - cannot, will not and have not cheated. 

Ever. Impossible. Incomprehensible.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I hate that line.
There really are people who do the honorable thing in the world, even when hardship, heartbreak and obstacles develop. 
Sort of like believing "well, I'm not so bad because everyone else would act the same way if they were in my situation."
No. no they wouldn't.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Totally agree with the point you are making.

Of course anyone "can" stab someone else but not everyone will.

I could cheat on my wife and have even been tempted a couple of times in 23 years, but I "will" not and have not.

The under certain circumstances argument can usually be made void by not getting yourself into said circumstances.

Most reformed cheaters will admit to getting to a very low point in their lives before cheating. I choose never to get that low.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I could not cheat under any circumstances no more than I could committ murder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> I could not cheat under any circumstances no more than I could committ murder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK then, everyone! Dont piss off NoChoice!


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Saying anyone could cheat is a cop out by cheaters. 

Under the right circumstances, anyone could...
- drown a bag full of kittens
- punch a baby
- push their grandma off a cliff
- cheat on their spouse

Nope, not buying it.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I interpret it as meaning that any type of person can have an affair
old young black white gay straight rich poor religious athiest american lebanese male female etc etc


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Cheating is _always _a choice, not a set of circumstances that leads to an inevitable outcome. If it were only about circumstances, we would be able to completely affair-proof marriages, but we can't because cheaters make choices every step of the way to cheating no matter what their circumstances are.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

I have always thought that was such a crock as well... Reminds me of those "self help" books that say, "My H's affair was the best thing that could've happened to my marriage." Uh, what?!?! Well, clearly sunshine, you and I live on separate planets. 

Anyone "can" do blah, blah, blah. Puke... Technically, I "can" slip only way into the grocery store and land on a random stranger's penis. "Oops!" Give me a break. It's a deliberate, calculated choice perpetrated by people who are selfish, callous and immoral. Not some random"life event" disguised as a right of passage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Most drug addicts I assume never thought they would become addicts, and like cheaters it was never a problem till it becomes a problem. And anyone can be addicted to drugs, either by chance, choice or circumstance. Food for thought.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> It's a deliberate, calculated choice perpetrated by people who are selfish, callous and immoral. Not some random"life event" disguised as a right of passage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I so love this!

I truly hate any romanticizing, excusing, or polishing of infidelity.

Among the other traits you listed, I would add weak.

Some cheat because they are weak and have never established healthy boundaries.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

IIJokerII said:


> Most drug addicts I assume never thought they would become addicts, and like cheaters it was never a problem till it becomes a problem. And anyone can be addicted to drugs, either by chance, choice or circumstance. Food for thought.


They had a choice to take drugs.

I may be reading you wrong but you choose who you stick your penis in.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I could have. I didn't but I might have. I don't think anyone can predict how they will react until they are in a situation. I'm not claiming any superiority because I didn't, things could easily have gone differently.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

IIJokerII said:


> Most drug addicts I assume never thought they would become addicts, and like cheaters it was never a problem till it becomes a problem. And anyone can be addicted to drugs, either by chance, choice or circumstance. Food for thought.


I know people who have done drugs that aren't addicts and folks who drink that aren't alcoholics. That's not really the same. And I bet most cheaters would be "offended" to be referred to in the same category as an addict.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I wanted to respond to this notion in another thread, but figured someone would get their nose in a snit and report it for threadjacking.
> 
> So starting a new one.
> 
> ...



******************************************************
Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%

Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%

Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 68%


InfidelityFacts.com. All right reserved. Privacy Policy



SEEMS pretty high to me!!! Remember EVERY DOG WILL BITE..EVERYONE OF THEM...

NAIVETY ABOUNDS....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Also, fvcking someone you are not supposed to is a far different action than taking a drink.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

I better be careful...might get banned again for speaking my opinion....

if anyone on here knows how i can file a complaint for my previous ban ...pls let me know..


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%
> 
> Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%
> ...


I am no dog. Not anyones problem if most people want to act like a dog if they can get away with it.

People are high beings with will and choice. All that survey shows is that most interviewed would "choose" to behave like dogs if they thought there would be no repercussions for it.

Many, however, will always control themselves.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I am no dog. Not anyones problem if most people want to act like a dog if they can get away with it.
> 
> People are high beings with will and choice. All that survey shows is that most interviewed would "choose" to behave like dogs if they thought there would be no repercussions for it.
> 
> Many, however, will always control themselves.


********************************************************

AND MANY WONT....according to most infidelity polls 75% of married men or women would CHEAT if they could get away with it... GREAT ODDS IN VEGAS ...NOT SO MUCH FOR A MARRIAGE....

That thinking reminds of all the men ive heard say.."Your wife might have an affair...but MINE NEVER WOULD....only to find their lives nothing but scorched earth...after D-DAY

If you think people are inherently Good and would make the right choice...think again...

IMO that train of thought is naive at BEST...and foolish at the worst..


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

badkarma2013 said:


> ********************************************************
> 
> AND MANY WONT....according to most infidelity polls 75% of married men or women would CHEAT if they could get away with it... GREAT ODDS IN VEGAS ...NOT SO MUCH FOR A MARRIAGE....
> 
> ...


Name call all you like.
You are still missing the very point of the thread.
Not everyone will cheat.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I have a LOT of trouble with absolutes. I was born a very poor hillbilly, and the odds were that I would never amount to anything. According to those who believe in absolutes, I shouldn't have even tried. I was caught in a firefight, and was told it was impossible to get out of it alive. Well, I'm here. I firmly believe that my ex wife would never cheat. Wrong again. 
Every time somebody spouts an absolute, it is only a matter of time before somebody proves it wrong. The only absolute I believe about human behavior, is the there is not a single living person, who can predict it , absolutely.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> ********************************************************
> 
> AND MANY WONT....according to most infidelity polls 75% of married men or women would CHEAT if they could get away with it... GREAT ODDS IN VEGAS ...NOT SO MUCH FOR A MARRIAGE....
> 
> ...


I maybe get what you are saying. Fore warned is fore armed, right?

I would agree that being aware of danger helps you avoid it.

Anyone can choose to cheat, if someone believes that there is some mystic barrier that will not allow them to cheat, then I would agree about the naïve statement.

I, quite opposite of thinking people are good, believe people to be inherently evil.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I interpret it as meaning that any type of person can have an affair
> old young black white gay straight rich poor religious athiest american lebanese male female etc etc


If I am understanding your point, Ar, then I would say this a little differently:

The expression is often used to warn a poster not to assume that his or her spouse did not or will not cheat. When used in this manner, I would generally agree with the statement, because one should always be alert to the signs of infidelity and not ignore them based on the belief (hope, really) that one's spouse would _'never'_ cheat.

The expression is also used sometimes to alert a poster to the possibility that the poster may eventually cheat if he or she is not careful (for instance, if the poster maintains an OS friendship with someone who is making inappropriate suggestions or bringing up inappropriate topics). When used in this manner, again, I would generally agree with the statement, since one can never really know how he or she will react to temptation and therefore it is safer to avoid it.

However, it does seem to be used sometimes to mean that every single human being has it within him or herself to cheat on his or her spouse. When used in this sense, I'm with vellocet and would disagree with the statement. As has been suggested, not everyone has the capacity to cheat any more than everyone has the capacity to become a serial killer.

The trick, of course, is learning what kind of person one is (or one is married to) -- a saint or a (potential) sinner? One can never know for certain.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances? No.

Anyone can have an affair under the *wrong* circumstances? Yes.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> They had a choice to take drugs.
> 
> I may be reading you wrong but you choose who you stick your penis in.


Yep using an addict analogy is a poor example. You can't get addicted to soe thing you don't try or know is wrong. 

And I agree with you OP. It's silly to me when people say anyone can cheat. Course they CAN cheat but not everyone WILL. Some hold themselves accountable .


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I guess I represent the Cynical Bastard vote, because even though I don't believe in absolutes either, I do believe that just about anybody is capable of just about anything. Five years as an Asst. DA didn't do anything to dissuade me from that view. At all.

I impose personal boundaries on myself because I do not 100% trust myself. 99%? Probably, but it's that other 1% that I worry about.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

```

```



badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%
> 
> Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%
> ...


Are these the same people who quote the divorce rate is over 60% but don't label that within that 60 % are people who are getting married and divorced multiple times. Kinda like cheating. Cheaters cheat and do so often. Doesn't mean the whole world is doing it. I'm would be careful on statistical based research. It can be biased to say what you want it to say.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Name call all you like.
> You are still missing the very point of the thread.
> Not everyone will cheat.


Really? You saw name calling? I didn't.:scratchhead:

Not everyone will cheat, but that isn't to say that under the wrong circumstances that they might cheat.

I would never have believed that I was capable of cheating. Until I suddenly realised that I *was *cheating.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Are these the same people who quote the divorce rate is over 60% but don't label that within that 60 % are people who are getting married and divorced multiple times. Kinda like cheating. Cheaters cheat and do so often. Doesn't mean the whole world is doing it. I'm would be careful on statistical based research. It can be biased to say what you want it to say.


Of course not, however the survey i posted was given to 10,000 men and women ages 25-50 ...the question was asked very simply "would you cheat if could get away with it?" a staggering 68% of women answered YES THEY WOULD....

As a BH who was naive and ignored all the red flags...IM no longer blind..

IMO more will than wont...thats just my opinion.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I maybe get what you are saying. Fore warned is fore armed, right?
> 
> I would agree that being aware of danger helps you avoid it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining it better than i did!


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

badkarma2013 said:


> ********************************************************
> 
> AND MANY WONT....according to most infidelity polls 75% of married men or women would CHEAT if they could get away with it... GREAT ODDS IN VEGAS ...NOT SO MUCH FOR A MARRIAGE....
> 
> ...


I have no idea how accurate these stats are, but I'm not impressed by them. So 75% of men think they'd cheat. I'm one of the other 25% and always have been.

I'm vain and egotistical enough to believe that I could hit the top 25% of any category, though. Being less stupid than 75% of the population? Easy.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I have a LOT of trouble with absolutes. I was born a very poor hillbilly, and the odds were that I would never amount to anything. According to those who believe in absolutes, I shouldn't have even tried. I was caught in a firefight, and was told it was impossible to get out of it alive. Well, I'm here. I firmly believe that my ex wife would never cheat. Wrong again.
> Every time somebody spouts an absolute, it is only a matter of time before somebody proves it wrong. The only absolute I believe about human behavior, is the there is not a single living person, who can predict it , absolutely.


Sure there is. I cannot predict it in someone else, but I can surely predict it for myself. If someone says, "I never thought I'd have cheated on my SO". That's fine. That's them.

I know me.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Forest said:


> I have no idea how accurate these stats are, but I'm not impressed by them. So 75% of men think they'd cheat. I'm one of the other 25% and always have been.
> 
> I'm vain and egotistical enough to believe that I could hit the top 25% of any category, though. Being less stupid than 75% of the population? Easy.


AND 68% of women would also...Thats almost 7 out 0f 10 would cheat if they would not get caught....

Again ..dosent matter if they are STUPID or not...7 out 0f 10 women you may pick for your wife have a great chance of cheating on you...

BAD ODDS IN ANY ARENA!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

And just so we are clear, this is NOT a slam against the person who wrote that in the other thread. Knowing that person I'm sure they meant it differently.

And if not, then I just have to disagree.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Really? You saw name calling? I didn't.:scratchhead:
> 
> Not everyone will cheat, but that isn't to say that under the wrong circumstances that they might cheat.
> 
> I would never have believed that I was capable of cheating. Until I suddenly realised that I *was *cheating.


The poster was not calling an individual poster a name. But he was calling those who disagree with him naive and foolish.

I completely believe that you never thought you would cheat until you found yourself there. I also believe not everyone who found themselves in situations similar to your's would act in the same manner. People are different. Rookie doesn't like absolutes and I see his point. But it works both ways. Like I said-Not everyone cheats. To believe otherwise relegates infidelity to a circumstantial reaction.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> AND 68% of women would also...Thats almost 7 out 0f 10 would cheat if they would not get caught....
> 
> Again ..dosent matter if they are STUPID or not...7 out 0f 10 women you may pick for your wife have a great chance of cheating on you...
> 
> BAD ODDS IN ANY ARENA!


Yup, which is why I have made the decision to never enter into a committed relationship again.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Sure there is. I cannot predict it in someone else, but I can surely predict it for myself. If someone says, "I never thought I'd have cheated on my SO". That's fine. That's them.
> 
> I know me.


TRUE for yourself... but if you are married you most certainly can not predict in your wife...

If you think different foretold IS forewarned ! sorry posted this after you...sorry


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

My H cheated on me with a woman he introduced me to, Brought her in my home & let us become friends & I still couldn't bring myself to cheat on him..


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> TRUE for yourself... but if you are married you most certainly can not predict in your wife


Yes, I am speaking for myself, and I know there are others the same as me.

And yes, I know I can't predict what a SO will do. But that's them.

Point of the thread is, if someone says that anyone will cheat under the right circumstances, then they are wrong.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Devastated an lost said:


> My H cheated on me with a woman he introduced me to, Brought her in my home & let us become friends & I still couldn't bring myself to cheat on him..


Because you have good character. I fear people like you are a minority.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Yup, which is why I have made the decision to never enter into a committed relationship again.


Smart move...these days if i SEE,FEEL OR OTHERWISE JUST THINK SOMETHINGS OFF....iTSGoodbye MOT%RFU&$ER...with a quickness...


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

PLUTO2

To believe otherwise relegates infidelity to a circumstantial reaction...



********************************************************

AS IT OFTEN IS!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> The poster was not calling an individual poster a name. But he was calling those who disagree with him naive and foolish.
> 
> I completely believe that you never thought you would cheat until you found yourself there. I also believe not everyone who found themselves in situations similar to your's would act in the same manner. People are different. Rookie doesn't like absolutes and I see his point. But it works both ways. Like I said-Not everyone cheats. To believe otherwise relegates infidelity to a circumstantial reaction.


That's not name calling. It is a statement of opinion. 

Calling someone a "naive blanking whatever" would be name calling. Which would, of course, be wrong.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I so love this!
> 
> I truly hate any romanticizing, excusing, or polishing of infidelity.
> 
> ...


Agree 100% Conan. Weak is definitely on the list. Along with entitled (so they think) narcissistic, and quite a few more. Like you I despise the glamorization of infidelity. I can't , nah...Won't buy the excuse of, "It just happened." No! Stop it, you are a grown @ssed adult. Own your choices and behaviors. Nobody fell on you or innocently backed up into you. (Whichever gender did the cheating is irrelevant) Stop it. Do the work to get down to the gutter of your rationale, and follow the necessary steps to change and improve.

Man, now my head hurts.. Oyyyyy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%
> 
> Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%
> ...


The website you are quoting has no credibility. They claim their numbers are from are from various university researches, major public polling, psychological surveys, etc. Yet they DO NOT link to any of these so called sources.

The info is most probably bullsh!t, as is most info on infidelity.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

vellocet said:


> And just so we are clear, this is NOT a slam against the person who wrote that in the other thread. Knowing that person I'm sure they meant it differently.
> 
> And if not, then I just have to disagree.


Hi Vellocet~

I suspect it was me or Elegirl that you are referring to here, and I hope you don't mind but I would like to clarify something. 

I do not suspect that you and I disagree here in theory. From my point of view prior to my affair and now afterward, I would have said out loud, "There is NO WAY I would ever be unfaithful. It's not in my character." But here I am!

When I say that I think it's conceivable, I think of it like murder. I would say there is no way on God's green earth I would ever murder anyone nor do I think it's in almost anyone's character here on TAM. We just ARE NOT murderous people at our core being. 

And yet I do believe there could be circumstances that would drive some people, myself included, to murdering someone. Not that there isn't another choice. Not that the person isn't moral or has a huge black hole where their ethics should be. But here's the thing: I've been a rape crisis hotline counselor, and I'm telling you that some dads CRACK when they find out their little 7 year old was raped by the pastor. Now, until that occurred, they had not thought "Hey I better protect myself from murderous rage in the event that someone rapes my daughter because it's more than I can deal with...." Who thinks of that? 

And no, I'm not saying that infidelity is like rape. They are VASTLY different. 

What I am saying is that people do crack. They do have something occur that is so devastating to them, they don't cope with it well. In fact, they cope EXTREMELY poorly just like some turn to alcohol or drugs to numb out the pain. The solution (for the addict) is not to justify continuing to the drinking or the drugging! The solution is to admit there's a problem, admit they did it wrong, stop doing the wrong thing, and then learn "where did I go wrong? and "how can I cope better?" 

That's what I meant. For me, I know now that one of my MAJOR personal issues is being/feeling ignored. My whole life as a child, I felt like the True Me was invisible to my parents. They didn't see the child they were hitting...I think they were punching something else that they were angry at but I was in the way. But see what I mean? I was there but I wasn't even there--I was invisible. And so now, years later and tons of therapy later, I realize that when I feel ignore/invisible it is usually that old tape rearing its ugly head, and I have tools to cope with it. I can ask for what I need right out loud. I can just state that this is how I'm feeling. I have found ways that Dear Hubby and I have agreed on to say 'I'm feeling invisible' and it's not his job to fix it but he sometimes needs to be made aware that's where my head is. Because it's kind of like PTSD (okay...VERY like PTSD  ). My head IS back there...in the past...experiencing that invisibility. I need to come into the present. BUT I know that now...and I didn't know that then. 

Back then, the way I see it events occurred where at every turn I could have made a different choice. But being the human I am, prone to doing the wrong thing, I did make the wrong choices over and over. I could feel the sorrow and hurt of feeling invisible, but I didn't know how to cope with it. I did try to turn to my Dear Hubby but he had his own things he was dealing with, so he didn't get the message or the urgency. 

So nope, I don't think events occurred that "made me cheat" or that I had no choice. I do think that events occurred in such a way that I was in a particularly vulnerable personal place, and from that unprotected spot (internally) I made the wrong choices because it numbed the pain.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

AC, I understand. I think there are a lot of people that would say they would never do it. And no offense to you, because you are one of the rare x-WS's here I respect, but I believe there are those that can say it and mean it.

I just won't, would never have brought myself to do it, and yes, the circumstances arose, I refrained. Why? I just did. I have never understood cheating on someone you love.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Devastated an lost said:


> My H cheated on me with a woman he introduced me to, Brought her in my home & let us become friends & I still couldn't bring myself to cheat on him..


Because you are an honorable woman.

Funny how little reward there is in that these days. Well, not funny.


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## nikoled (Mar 12, 2014)

My husband had an affair (dday was 7 months ago) and we are in reconciliation- things are going fine. Anyways, one recent topic of discussion following reading "Not Just Friends" is how he always noticed other people. He was a huge people watcher. Always noticed the beautiful women or the ones with a cute butt or actresses/models/singers, etc. He would even remark about it. I remember him even remarking how I never talked about how other people were attractive. He doesn't do this anymore post affair, but it was interesting how he had an aha moment when he realized that his boundaries were so bad that his eyes were ALWAYS looking at other people. Was he considering them all for affairs? I doubt it, but he was obviously looking. I, on the other hand, never even CONSIDERED looking at other people. It's not that I don't see attractive men, it's more that it doesn't even really register to me that they are attractive and I should gawk at them. I was happy in my marriage and didn't feel like looking I guess (silly me!). 

I never thought he would cheat- he was CRAZY for me- always talking about me, showing my picture to people, etc in our early years. He was great dad and on the outside probably seemed like a great husband. But there were definitely issues over the years (we've been married 20 years). He had very bad boundaries, needed people to boost his self esteem, etc. I don't. I am comfortable with who I am. I don't need praise. 

I was contacted by a childhood boyfriend years ago and we emailed back and forth a bit to get caught up, but we both drew the line at anything past I live here, I am married, I have kids, life is good. And so did he. We both had boundaries and knew our limits. I don't think everyone is capable of having an affair. I don't think I would choose that route.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> The website you are quoting has no credibility. They claim their numbers are from are from various university researches, major public polling, psychological surveys, etc. Yet they DO NOT link to any of these so called sources.
> 
> The info is most probably bullsh!t, as is most info on infidelity.




BradWesley...Im not discounting any article or survey JUST ON YOUR SAY SO...!!

Let me ask you ...Are you a BH?...Has your wife,girlfriend or SO ever cheated on you?

All you have done is try to discredit my info. with no credible INFO OF YOUR OWN....Thats BULLSH!T....IMO


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I'd just like to point out that all of us on TAM are more aware and enlightened about the effects of infidelity and the slippery slope that we read about so often. Maybe that knowledge acts as a pseudo inoculation helping us collectively avoid the pitfalls that so many experience.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Anyone can be a child molester, under the right circumstances.


Technically, I do agree that anyone can have an affair. After all, an affair is breaking the arbitrary set of rules we humans have created for ourselves. How we view it depends on the life we've experienced until then. 

But the argument is mostly used to bring the BS to the level of the WS. "See, had the situations been right, you would have cheated on your WS too. You just did not have the chance" It is a counter attack on the BS. That I don't agree. 


A lesser malicious usage of the phrase could also be about humanizing the WS actions and trying to create a situation where R is possible.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> I wanted to respond to this notion in another thread, but figured someone would get their nose in a snit and report it for threadjacking.
> 
> So starting a new one.
> 
> ...


I agree Vel, nd even if I didn't, there is nothing wrong with saying you can't or won't because it positively reinforces someone against cheating, You repeat it enough, you won't do it. I am 45, ever cheated and never will Good track record


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Hi Vellocet~
> 
> I suspect it was me or Elegirl that you are referring to here, and I hope you don't mind but I would like to clarify something.
> 
> ...


I read your post and I am curious. You said you never thought you would cheat but here you are. And I think to myself well I know I wouldn't cheat and never have. So where is the difference between you and I?

Then I read what you said about having poor coping skills and people cracking and mybe that's it in part. So a person says I was ignored in my marriage and never had sex so I cracked and cheated. We hear that here. But then I look at that and say why would you tolerate living like that...just leave and find someone else.

So maybe the root of the cheaters vs non cheaters is what they are willing to tolerate and live with? Dunno just thinking out loud I guess.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

badkarma2013 said:


> BradWesley...Im not discounting any article or survey JUST ON YOUR SAY SO...!!
> 
> Let me ask you ...Are you a BH?...Has your wife,girlfriend or SO ever cheated on you?
> 
> All you have done is try to discredit my info. with no credible INFO OF YOUR OWN....Thats BULLSH!T....IMO


I can't speak for him but my x wife cheated on me. She also cheated on her first husband which I knew about. I ignored good sense, believed she could change blah blah and just became the next sucker. So I believe, and always have, that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Most the cheaters I have heard about rarely cheat once and are done. So I'm not discrediting your survey I just think that people who are making a career out of cheating and those numbers are being counted and adding up.

Of my friends who are both men and women none have cheated. We are all in our 40's now. I just don't think its hard to find a non cheater. Just have to figure out about thier past.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> They had a choice to take drugs.
> 
> I may be reading you wrong but you choose who you stick your penis in.


Your statement is inarguable, it does boil down to a choice, but more often than not idea's are influential and not of an isolated nature, we learn from the environment we are exposed to. 

And although I do choose to who to sheath my sword into, they ultimately choose whom to accept as well. But I will say that most, not all, people who stray are prone to accept certain friendships that are well camouflaged by the "Just friends" moniker. Most people find that infidelity is insidious and subtle. Still, the choices we make will make us in the end.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Wolf1974 said:


> I read your post and I am curious. You said you never thought you would cheat but here you are. And I think to myself well I know I wouldn't cheat and never have. So where is the difference between you and I?
> 
> Then I read what you said about having poor coping skills and people cracking and mybe that's it in part. So a person says I was ignored in my marriage and never had sex so I cracked and cheated. We hear that here. But then I look at that and say why would you tolerate living like that...just leave and find someone else.
> 
> So maybe the root of the cheaters vs non cheaters is what they are willing to tolerate and live with? Dunno just thinking out loud I guess.


Hi Wolf, 

This may be a slight threadjack but I think it's relevant to the OP's discussion so let's go there. 

I think you bring up an interesting possibility: what are cheaters vs. non cheaters willing to tolerate and live with. 

I can not speak for you or anyone, but in my two marriages, both have been very long term and both have been very committed. In my first marriage, my exH had a wandering eye our whole marriage, and during the divorce process as I discovered things, I believe he essentially cheated on me the whole time because he thought about, had feelings for, and did things with many, many women other than me. I was the respectable image for him, and I also filled the role of housekeeper, child care, and on-demand sex. (I'm not saying that with anger, but more like factually). Why did I put up with that? At the time I did not think anything other than balling up a fist and punching me was abusive. He wasn't punching me therefore what did I have to complain about..right? 

Needless to say, through my divorce I learned A LOT!!!! 

In my second marriage, my Dear Hubby does NOT have a wandering eye at all. He is extremely dedicated and does not share himself with anyone other than me. And I'll be honest, after we lost the baby and then found out we'd never have kids, I think he fell apart a little bit inside--as much or more than I did. I did, in fact, "put up with it" because in real life the one I wanted was him. I did "put up with it" because the distant, closed-off man didn't seem like the him that I knew. But after a while it didn't see like he was bouncing back. I didn't know how long it would last. At that point, I "put up with it" trying to wait it out. 

And during that time, I also made what I consider now to be insidiously innocent SEEMING choices that actually were very dangerous. Like: "Well it's healthy for people to have their own hobbies and interests, right? So while he plays his game, I'll just play one that I like." Doesn't sound like "Hey I'll go commit adultery" does it? But in real life it sets the stage for adultery to creep in because that's actually a choice to do something that excludes your spouse. 

It probably would have been much wiser to really "not put up with it" and put my foot down! That's a much healthier way of coping!


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep using an addict analogy is a poor example. You can't get addicted to soe thing you don't try or know is wrong..


 I respect the difference of opinion and it is great to examine a topic that is obviously drawing a very split opinion. 

But how many people here or elsewhere got lit up after school or otherwise underage? smoked a fatty? Caused some havoc during their righteous youth only to look back on those days and times with glee and remembrance, unless someone got hurt or they hurt themselves. How many were close to drinking themselves to death or driving drunk? How many were fortunate to not be high on weed while someone brought out a better "high" for everyone to share with? How many people came home just before some childish angst went too far causing people to get hurt, arrested or even killed.

I am really not defending these people but it is complete arrogance to dismiss even the possibility of being unfaithful under the right climate for an affair to thrive. Maybe it is to say I have or like to have faith in the human race that we as supposed civilized people are able to resist this debacle and not want or intend to hurt others, but people do it. Cheaters suck, but I simply do not believe most intended to be that way.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

nikoled said:


> My husband had an affair (dday was 7 months ago) and we are in reconciliation- things are going fine. Anyways, one recent topic of discussion following reading "Not Just Friends" is how he always noticed other people. He was a huge people watcher. Always noticed the beautiful women or the ones with a cute butt or actresses/models/singers, etc. He would even remark about it. I remember him even remarking how I never talked about how other people were attractive. He doesn't do this anymore post affair, but it was interesting how he had an aha moment when he realized that his boundaries were so bad that his eyes were ALWAYS looking at other people. Was he considering them all for affairs? I doubt it, but he was obviously looking. I, on the other hand, never even CONSIDERED looking at other people. It's not that I don't see attractive men, it's more that it doesn't even really register to me that they are attractive and I should gawk at them. I was happy in my marriage and didn't feel like looking I guess (silly me!).
> 
> I never thought he would cheat- he was CRAZY for me- always talking about me, showing my picture to people, etc in our early years. He was great dad and on the outside probably seemed like a great husband. But there were definitely issues over the years (we've been married 20 years). He had very bad boundaries, needed people to boost his self esteem, etc. I don't. I am comfortable with who I am. I don't need praise.
> 
> I was contacted by a childhood boyfriend years ago and we emailed back and forth a bit to get caught up, but we both drew the line at anything past I live here, I am married, I have kids, life is good. And so did he. We both had boundaries and knew our limits. I don't think everyone is capable of having an affair. I don't think I would choose that route.


Oddly enough it's my wife who points pretty girls out to me. But they are all stick thin and not attractive to me!


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

vellocet said:


> "Anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances"


 First you must define "affair". Most people that get caught up in an emotional affair (EA) do not even recognize that they are in an affair because there was no sex. I have a friend that if you met him you would agree that he was a good person that would never cheat on his wife, and in his mind till this day he never did. But if you look at the facts, there is no doubt that he left his wife for his EA partner. Once your are in an EA the odds are high that you will eventually have sex with your EA partner, either while you are still married to someone else or after you have file for divorce. 

Here is the problem, you can control your actions and not have sex, but you cannot control how you feel when you fall in love with someone else other than your spouse. They start out as just co-workers or opposite sex friends (OSF), and then they find that they have developed feelings for their EA partners that they never planned or thought possible. Is an EA cheating? Many say yes, but change their minds on the this once they are in an EA fog. Thus almost "Anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances" if you believe an EA is an affair and is cheating. In my mind the strongest right circumstance is weak boundaries, with people that say that they would never cheat having the weakest boundaries.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Sure there is. I cannot predict it in someone else, but I can surely predict it for myself. If someone says, "I never thought I'd have cheated on my SO". That's fine. That's them.
> 
> I know me.


No....you can't. You can no predict the future. Nobody can and nobody has ever been able to. Unless you think you are supernatural.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> No....you can't. You can no predict the future. Nobody can and nobody has ever been able to. Unless you think you are supernatural.


You can predict who you put your penis in. At least I can. Maybe I have super powers!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> You can predict who you put your penis in. At least I can. Maybe I have super powers!��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Every minute of every day, you can predict what will happen, or in this case what will not happen? Sorry, but I call that. You may feel that way now, but you have no idea how you will feel 10, 15, or 20 years from now.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> I respect the difference of opinion and it is great to examine a topic that is obviously drawing a very split opinion.
> 
> But how many people here or elsewhere got lit up after school or otherwise underage? smoked a fatty? Caused some havoc during their righteous youth only to look back on those days and times with glee and remembrance, unless someone got hurt or they hurt themselves. How many were close to drinking themselves to death or driving drunk? How many were fortunate to not be high on weed while someone brought out a better "high" for everyone to share with? How many people came home just before some childish angst went too far causing people to get hurt, arrested or even killed.
> 
> I am really not defending these people but it is complete arrogance to dismiss even the possibility of being unfaithful under the right climate for an affair to thrive. Maybe it is to say I have or like to have faith in the human race that we as supposed civilized people are able to resist this debacle and not want or intend to hurt others, but people do it. Cheaters suck, but I simply do not believe most intended to be that way.


This is right on point. I would never say that there is no circumstance or situation that could ever exist where I would be tempted to cheat or even murder someone. I am fortunate, as are we all, that we don't have to experience every possible circumstance and temptation because if we did, most of us would fail in some way and in some area where we thought we were strong.

We are all sinners and we are all weak. That's human nature. I believe we are all capable of cheating and far worse things if we are not guarding ourselves from those possibilities.

As a recovering alcoholic that hasn't had a drink in many years, I am still always mindful of potentially dangerous situations for me. It would not be prudent for me to go bar hopping every weekend, for example, as this would quite likely be a threat to my sobriety and wouldn't particularly be good for my marriage either.

So even though one could feel good about one's character, I still think it a good idea to always be on your guard. I consider myself to have high character, that does not mean that I always practice good judgment , make wise decisions or enforce healthy boundaries. Those are not the same thing as good character.

In order for one to say that I would never cheat or do anything that would be considered remotely cheating on my spouse (even kissing another, for example), I not only need to possess rock solid character but must also exercise good judgment and make smart decisions all the time. I must have good boundaries and must be able to enforce them correctly 100% of the time.

When things are tough or You're feeling down or have come upon some bad breaks, one might be more susceptible to making bad decisions or not enforcing boundaries.

So while I do think one can be confident in their own character, to a fairly large degree, I do not think they can always guarantee that they will execute all of the other quotients correctly. This is why some people who never intended to have affairs do so IMO.

I am not in any way justifying immoral behavior but simply stating that if we do not guard ourselves and our own thoughts and actions, we are all capable of such. Hope that makes some sense.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> You can predict who you put your penis in. At least I can. Maybe I have super powers!��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah, So that's whats pre-dict means. HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Hi Wolf,
> 
> This may be a slight threadjack but I think it's relevant to the OP's discussion so let's go there.
> 
> ...



For some I guess but again I see the disconnect between us. I have always had my own hobbies. Never cheated. Had and have female friends. Never cheated. Been drunk at parties never cheated. Ohh thier were always opportunities but I made vows and commitments and those came first.

I can understand but not condone the bad relationship thing. If someone tolerates being unhappy for year and years I guess they will talk themselves into whatever they wan. instead of making a change they take the victim mentality that hey I was unhappy and you caused that. I personally always looked at my happiness in a realtionship as my priority and my ability to control. If unhappy you talk about it it and make changes. If the spouse isn't interested then it's time to lay down ultimatum. If that doesn't work then you follow through and leave.

I believe that the two camps "I won't cheat" and "cheating can happen to anyone" believe what they both are saying and possibly stem from what each is willing to tolerate and control in thier own relationship


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

dismissed again. pretty sad.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> I respect the difference of opinion and it is great to examine a topic that is obviously drawing a very split opinion.
> 
> But how many people here or elsewhere got lit up after school or otherwise underage? smoked a fatty? Caused some havoc during their righteous youth only to look back on those days and times with glee and remembrance, unless someone got hurt or they hurt themselves. How many were close to drinking themselves to death or driving drunk? How many were fortunate to not be high on weed while someone brought out a better "high" for everyone to share with? How many people came home just before some childish angst went too far causing people to get hurt, arrested or even killed.
> 
> I am really not defending these people but it is complete arrogance to dismiss even the possibility of being unfaithful under the right climate for an affair to thrive. Maybe it is to say I have or like to have faith in the human race that we as supposed civilized people are able to resist this debacle and not want or intend to hurt others, but people do it. Cheaters suck, but I simply do not believe most intended to be that way.


But that's the thing. I have been tested and said no. Was offered a chance for a one night encounter that certainly my x wife would have never found out about. I said no. And I said no as second time in another circumstance which was a bit riskier that my x would have found out and still said no. 

So with the first one in particular that had nothing to do with my x wife becuase she would have never know. But I would have. And because I take the promises and vows I make to people seriously it would have torn me up inside. Again a disconnect I think between people. If the ONLY reason you don't cheat is becuase someone may find out that is likely to be a lost cause because then you will just play the how can I get away with it game. If you are a person who thinks it's morally wrong and not in your character to cheat then its easier to resist because, caught or not , you have to live with the knowledge of what you have done. I don't think cheaters think like that.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> No....you can't. You can no predict the future. Nobody can and nobody has ever been able to. Unless you think you are supernatural.


I disagree totally. I'm not supernatural but I know what my limitations are and know myself better than anyone by this age.

I will be the first to admit I could kill someone. If someone hurt my kids or was about to, no hesitation they are done.

Cheat. Nope. Been there done that and didn't do it. Have been tested many times in my life and never done it.

But again this comes with knowing oneself. If someone hurt my babies and I killed them and that in turn meant the rest of my life in jail or death penalty then that is something I can live with

Cheating. I couldn't live with knowing I broke vows and promises I made to someone. That would tear me up inside becuase I take them seriously


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Every minute of every day, you can predict what will happen, or in this case what will not happen? Sorry, but I call that. You may feel that way now, but you have no idea how you will feel 10, 15, or 20 years from now.


Well I felt the same way about cheating now as I did when I was 20. I was tempted and didn't cheat several times in my mid 20's. Still feel exactly the same way today as I did then about why I won't do it. So guess I am supernatural :smthumbup:


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> But that's the thing. I have been tested and said no. Was offered a chance for a one night encounter that certainly my x wife would have never found out about. I said no. And I said no as second time in another circumstance which was a bit riskier that my x would have found out and still said no.


 All this proves is that these temptations to cheat were not the right circumstances for you, and that you have the strong moral character and strength to turn down loveless sex no matter how attractive the person making the offer. But what if after working with someone on a project during one of the down times in the normal ups and downs of a marriage, you discover that you have developed strong feelings for this other person even though that was never your intent? Although you can control your actions and not have sex with them, you cannot control the fact that you have fallen in love with them, or that this other person had also fallen in love with you. Without realizing it was happening, the two of you had entered into an emotional affair (EA). If you end your marriage after this, I do not think that your spouse would care much that you never had sex with your EA partner until after the divorce. 

My fear when people say that they could never have an affair is that this makes many think that they do not need to have strong boundaries that would help them protect their marriage.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

As to the OP's analogy, I don't think it works. Cheating is always a choice - if there's no choice, it's not cheating. In the case where you are raped, which I think is exactly what the OP described, I would say that certainly isn't cheating (although try telling that to some Islamic fundamentalists I've read about and they would certainly disagree). This can't be cheating because there is no choice, no free will involved whatsoever.

However, I don't think the knife stabbing analogy works. I think most if not all of us would stab someone in the heart without much hesitation if that someone is currently trying their best to kill, maim, or torture you. True, it might be a choice whether or not to defend yourself, but most people's will to live is a lot stronger than any other instinct. I think it would take an act of extreme self-control not to stab someone in self defense if they believed it was a matter of life and death. 

Similarly, I think if someone decides to have sex with someone other than their spouse because they truly believed doing so would save someone's life (such as in the case of some really sick kidnapping and extortion), I don't consider that cheating. Would you hold it against your spouse and accuse them of infidelity for having sex with someone else if doing so saved your life?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> No....you can't. You can no predict the future. Nobody can and nobody has ever been able to. Unless you think you are supernatural.


Sorry, but yes, I can. I can say I'll never cheat on someone just like I can say I'll never place my hand on a table and slice off my pinky finger. It just isn't going to happen.

And honestly, another reason I can say I'll never cheat is I won't be making any commitments in the future. So that kind of helps to solidify it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I disagree totally. I'm not supernatural but I know what my limitations are and know myself better than anyone by this age.
> 
> I will be the first to admit I could kill someone. If someone hurt my kids or was about to, no hesitation they are done.
> 
> ...


OK, lets do this the easy way. I, Rookie4, do not believe in absolutes. This is my opinion, and nothing more.
Now any of you who comment on my posts can refer to this as my answer to your posts. That way I don't have to waste time responding.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Sorry, but yes, I can. I can say I'll never cheat on someone just like I can say I'll never place my hand on a table and slice off my pinky finger. It just isn't going to happen.
> 
> And honestly, another reason I can say I'll never cheat is I won't be making any commitments in the future. So that kind of helps to solidify it.


Refer to my post.


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> BradWesley...Im not discounting any article or survey JUST ON YOUR SAY SO...!!
> 
> Let me ask you ...Are you a BH?...Has your wife,girlfriend or SO ever cheated on you?
> 
> All you have done is try to discredit my info. with no credible INFO OF YOUR OWN....Thats BULLSH!T....IMO


What does being a BS have to do with any of these numbers?

I did not discredit you, but rather the info you posted. I will not be posting any info of my own, as almost all of the info regarding infidelity on the net is not credible.

Discounting any article or survey on my say so, then I guess you are one of those people who are of the notion --

"If it's on the internet, it must be true"

Good luck to you with that rationale.

Have a nice day.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> What does being a BS have to do with any of these numbers?
> 
> I did not discredit you, but rather the info you posted. I will not be posting any info of my own, as almost all of the info regarding infidelity on the net is not credible.
> 
> ...


If YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY CREDIBLE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR 
CLAIM THAT THAT MY INFO. IS ( IN YOUR WORDS BULLSH&T)
I WOULD SUGGEST YOU REFRAIN FROM COMMENTING ...AS I HAVE FOUND PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZE WITHOUT OFFERING ANY TRUE REBUTTAL, ARE OFTEN FULL OF SH%I THEMSELVES!


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Mostlycontent said:


> This is right on point. I would never say that there is no circumstance or situation that could ever exist where I would be tempted to cheat or even murder someone. I am fortunate, as are we all, that we don't have to experience every possible circumstance and temptation because if we did, most of us would fail in some way and in some area where we thought we were strong.
> 
> We are all sinners and we are all weak. That's human nature. I believe we are all capable of cheating and far worse things if we are not guarding ourselves from those possibilities.
> 
> ...


This one nails it for me.

Since I was very young I've always felt strongly against infidelity. I had the misfortune of experiencing it (as the betrayed one) in my first "serious" relationship, and this made my opinion in the matter even stronger. Like other posters here, for years I turned down many chances to cheat in various relationships, in one occasion even while seriously drunk.

I was absolutely sure I would never ever cheat, until at the right (wrong) moment of my life, while I was in the right (wrong) mindset, the right (wrong) person came along with the right (wrong) approach. And, to my everlasting shame, I fell.

I'm not gonna argue with those who sound so self assured, maybe they'll succeed, I hope they will, I was one of them, but I do believe that most of us may end up cheating given the "right" set of circumstances. Sure, for some this may be unlikely like some weird alignment of planets, while for others the right set of circumstances is simply meeting someone willing, but the possibility is there anyway (strictly IMO). 

This doesn't take any bit of responsibility away from the cheater, who is always absolutely responsible of the choices he/she makes. I don't see the sentence "Anyone can cheat" as an excuse but more as a warning to never let the guard down on ourselves. Since my affair I Always try to avoid situations where I might find myself tempted or in any ambiguous relationship with persons of the other sex.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

This thread was created by the OP to argue, and for no other purpose. On one side you have people who believe in absolutes, on the other side you have people who don't. This is more of a "rant", than it is anything else.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

italianjob said:


> This one nails it for me.
> 
> Since I was very young I've always felt strongly against infidelity. I had the misfortune of experiencing it (as the betrayed one) in my first "serious" relationship, and this made my opinion in the matter even stronger. Like other posters here, for years I turned down many chances to cheat in various relationships, in one occasion even while seriously drunk.
> 
> ...


*****************************************************

Beautifully written.....

I agree, one cannot be so arrogant as to think it will not happen to them...


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> *****************************************************
> 
> Beautifully written.....
> 
> I agree, one cannot be so arrogant as to think it will not happen to them...


Tread lightly. I am not arrogant in thinking I won't cheat. I just won't. That's not arrogance. That is simply knowing myself.

If I am in a committed relationship, I'm not going to go behind their back with someone else. It just isn't going to happen.

If you can't say that for yourself, ok. I can.


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> If YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY CREDIBLE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR
> CLAIM THAT THAT MY INFO. IS ( IN YOUR WORDS BULLSH&T)
> I WOULD SUGGEST YOU REFRAIN FROM COMMENTING ...AS I HAVE FOUND PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZE WITHOUT OFFERING ANY TRUE REBUTTAL, ARE OFTEN FULL OF SH%I THEMSELVES!


MY LAST COMMENT TO YOU.

There is very little to no credible info on infidelity, because of the nature of infidelity.

No one even knows the exact divorce rate in the U. S. The educated guesstimate is 50%

I could put numbers up that are just as uncredible as what you listed. Then what do we do debate whose numbers are more credible? That would be really stupid and a waste of time.

Knock yourself out believing what you want

Again have a nice day and I'm out


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> MY LAST COMMENT TO YOU.
> 
> There is very little to no credible info on infidelity, because of the nature of infidelity.
> 
> ...


***********************************************************
До свидания! Brad Wesley


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> This thread was created by the OP to argue, and for no other purpose. On one side you have people who believe in absolutes, on the other side you have people who don't. This is more of a "rant", than it is anything else.


And one side believes the fates and stars might determine where you stick your tool. I'll believe you if you say you can't control who you sleep with but I actually always have controlled myself and unless I get dementia, I always will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Tread lightly. I am not arrogant in thinking I won't cheat. I just won't. That's not arrogance. That is simply knowing myself.
> 
> If I am in a committed relationship, I'm not going to go behind their back with someone else. It just isn't going to happen.
> 
> If you can't say that for yourself, ok. I can.


******************************************************

I guess my views changed after my D-DAY with my WW...

Maybe Now i CANT say that for myself...and Really thats not o.k.


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

I have been in tons of situations/circumstances where I could have cheated on my ex-bf who would have never ever found out but I didn't cheat.

Thought about yes wanted to at time when he was ignoring me but didn't cheat and so glad I didn't.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> 
> I guess my views changed after my D-DAY with my WW...
> 
> Maybe Now i CANT say that for myself...and Really thats not o.k.


So you are referring to not being able to predict the future if you GET cheated on? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm talking about knowing myself enough that I don't cheat. Yes, I'd agree it would be highly arrogant to say, "I won't get cheated on". However, I'll never be cheated on again.....because one can't get cheated on if one doesn't enter into commitment in the first place

I'd never think that someone won't cheat on me. I absolutely know it can happen.


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

No....you can't. You can no predict the future. Nobody can and nobody has ever been able to. Unless you think you are supernatural.

IDK as Dr.Phil would say the predictor of future behavior is past behavior.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Why Do People Resist the Temptation to Cheat? | Psychology Today


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

The world is not as black and white as some make it out to be....even about something as serious as this.

Relationships are chaos. There is no order. Everything is relative and so is cheating. It's incredibly presumptuous to assume you would never cheat under ANY circumstance because you simply can't know how you'd react under all circumstances unless you experience them.

And as far as I know the machine allowing you to experience every parallel universe simultaneously hasnt been invented yet. I'm working on it though...


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

vellocet said:


> So you are referring to not being able to predict the future if you GET cheated on? Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> I'm talking about knowing myself enough that I don't cheat. Yes, I'd agree it would be highly arrogant to say, "I won't get cheated on". However, I'll never be cheated on again.....because one can't get cheated on if one doesn't enter into commitment in the first place
> 
> I'd never think that someone won't cheat on me. I absolutely know it can happen.


****************************************************** 

No...Im more inclined to cheat now than ever before...again thats NOT OK............................


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Sorry sinnister. Never have, never will. I know this about myself. And I have been in numerous situations.

I'll never have a circumstance, ever, where I think to myself, "what the hell, I think I'm going to go for it, cuz I have to get mine". It just isn't in me. Never has been.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

vellocet said:


> "Anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances"


Discussions like this can generate more heat than light but I would like to enter in and say this.

I have made statements like this, usually in an attempt to help a WW find their humanity again and grow going forward.

I always thought it was true in general but not absolutely.

Does that statement automatically mean that there is no difference between a BS and their WS? I never extended it that far in my thinking, but I can see how someone would feel that way.

Some people fall because of some weakness that perhaps takes a "perfect storm" of events to expose, others maybe less so.
Is there a perfect storm for everyone? That is more than I know.

If infidelity occurs I think it's best if the person can say "I am weak in this way", grow and move forward more aware.
(Not talking about those who have a taste for cheating.)

I will not use the statement anymore.

My apologies to anyone who may have seen this as an aspersion upon them, I never intended that.

Take care!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TRy said:


> All this proves is that these temptations to cheat were not the right circumstances for you, and that you have the strong moral character and strength to turn down loveless sex no matter how attractive the person making the offer. But what if after working with someone on a project during one of the down times in the normal ups and downs of a marriage, you discover that you have developed strong feelings for this other person even though that was never your intent? Although you can control your actions and not have sex with them, you cannot control the fact that you have fallen in love with them, or that this other person had also fallen in love with you. Without realizing it was happening, the two of you had entered into an emotional affair (EA). If you end your marriage after this, I do not think that your spouse would care much that you never had sex with your EA partner until after the divorce.
> 
> My fear when people say that they could never have an affair is that this makes many think that they do not need to have strong boundaries that would help them protect their marriage.


If I found myself having feelings for someone I would tell my spouse and we would work on things. Is that what we are talking about? that you could surprisingly have feelings for someone one day or that you act on it cause those are two different things


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> This thread was created by the OP to argue, and for no other purpose. On one side you have people who believe in absolutes, on the other side you have people who don't. This is more of a "rant", than it is anything else.


:rofl:


Sorry I don't know if you were being ironical with that statement or made it purposly as a joke either way it's funny


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

vellocet said:


> Sorry sinnister. Never have, never will. I know this about myself. And I have been in numerous situations.
> 
> I'll never have a circumstance, ever, where I think to myself, "what the hell, I think I'm going to go for it, cuz I have to get mine". It just isn't in me. Never has been.


I've never been in that situation before. I hear wear your coming from but cheating is not something you can be absolute about. It seems that way. But it isnt. Who knows how lifes circumstances will affect you in the future.

Cheating has to do with relationships. That in its very nature means there are no absolutes.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I could have. I didn't but I might have. I don't think anyone can predict how they will react until they are in a situation. I'm not claiming any superiority because I didn't, things could easily have gone differently.


But here is the flaw in this.

Some people don't allow their "situation" to ever reach the "circumstances" where they would cheat.

My first marriage had EVERY component for me to cheat.

1. sexless...yup
2. cheating wife...yup
3. emotional abandonment....check
4. opportunity.....PLENTY...as in having 3 different women I worked with aggressively pursue me...and did I mention aggressively.....

I could go on and on. But there was one "circumstance" that wasn't "in the cards"...MY SELF CONTROL. Was it tempting...of course. You haven't had sex in a year and a half and you have a 23 year old SMOKING hot woman propositioning you for NSA get togethers kept on the down low.....yeah there was temptation...but I have enough will and integrity to say no.

I've never cheated, and never will cheat. You can say "but you don't know" until you're blue in the face....here's the thing...I do know.

How about abusing your child? I'm not saying this to be negative...but if you can't COMMIT to saying no to cheating.....how can you COMMIT to other things. Would you ever abuse your child. (I'd venture to guess of course not) But what about "under the right circumstances?" Again...I'd guess OF COURSE NOT.

It's because you have unwavering integrity about abuse against children....Well SOME people have unwavering integrity in regards to cheating. YOU may not, but you have to accept that some people do.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%
> 
> Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%
> ...


So.....you're saying 26% of men and 32% of women will NEVER cheat no matter what? 

And to apply this same logic....to the percentage of men and women within the 74% and 68% respectively...who don't cheat....if they were presented with cheating and noone finding out....how do you know how they'd actually act, including NOT cheating....if given the right circumstances?

And...don't have an affair in front of a dog?

got it.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I have a LOT of trouble with absolutes. I was born a very poor hillbilly, and the odds were that I would never amount to anything. According to those who believe in absolutes, I shouldn't have even tried. I was caught in a firefight, and was told it was impossible to get out of it alive. Well, I'm here. I firmly believe that my ex wife would never cheat. Wrong again.
> Every time somebody spouts an absolute, it is only a matter of time before somebody proves it wrong. The only absolute I believe about human behavior, is the there is not a single living person, who can predict it , absolutely.


You do realize that saying everyone can cheat under the right circumstance.....is an absolute...right?

The "non-absolute" would be to say....some will cheat and others won't.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

sinnister said:


> I've never been in that situation before. I hear wear your coming from but cheating is not something you can be absolute about. It seems that way. But it isnt. Who knows how lifes circumstances will affect you in the future.
> 
> *Cheating has to do with relationships.* That in its very nature means there are no absolutes.


This is where I see the disconnect between the two camps. One says circumstances and relationships determine if you could cheat. But if that were true why do two given people in a crappy sexless marriage and then one cheats and the other doesn't?

How can you explain those who are living sexless lives with crappy partners but some still choose not to cheat. They have all he conditions to allow cheating but some just don't do it.

Sorry I just don't see how that's explained any other way than personal accountability.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> You do realize that saying everyone can cheat under the right circumstance.....is an absolute...right?
> 
> The "non-absolute" would be to say....some will cheat and others won't.


I never said "everyone", you did.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Everyone is going to die some day, I can promise you that. LOL


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Every minute of every day, you can predict what will happen, or in this case what will not happen? Sorry, but I call that. You may feel that way now, but you have no idea how you will feel 10, 15, or 20 years from now.


Here's some things I can predict

I won't cheat
I won't be in the NBA, NFL, MLB or any other professional sport
My golf handicap will still be above a 0
My skin color and gender will be the same
I will ALWAYS be able to say No to things that go against the core of who I am
I will never sexually abuse someone else
I will love my children

You can argue...but don't you think it's somewhat arrogant to tell someone else that they are wrong about who they believe themselves to be?

Arrogance was a statement used (by someone else) about my beliefs...where I would say that arrogance is taking the stand to tell someone they don't know themselves...when that person EMPHATICALLY believes something.


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

Guys. 

Only the Sith deal in absolutes. 

Also pride cometh before the fall.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I never said "everyone", you did.


semantics.

The thought being argued here is 

"everyone will cheat under the right circumstances"....You are either in agreement with that statement or against it.

Many, such as myself, argue against it.

What side are you arguing for?

We both already know....so you have "said" everyone based on your stance.

Trying to pick one word of all that I've typed to discredit all that I've typed is a very skillful..but disingenuous form of debate.

EDIT: The phrase was originally "anyone can" which also translates to "everyone can" anyone, in this concept is synonymous with everyone.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

jin said:


> Guys.
> 
> Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
> 
> Also pride cometh before the fall.


Then we're all Sith LOL.

Both sides of this argument are absolutes. 

You have some people saying "I will never cheat"

You have other people sayng "No one can predict the future. No one can say they will never cheat"

They're both absolutes. 

I'm feeling like I'm at a vodka convention LOL


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

"i will never cheat" is an absolute. 

"i am weak and susceptible to temptation and could cheat" is not an absolute. 

It is an unknown and recognising inherent human weakness. I'm sure my wife thought she would never cheat and told me early on it was a deal breaker.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Idk, if I were hypothetically stranded on a desert island, and there were a female companion who was sexually and emotionally compatible with me, highly likely. If a scientist blocked out the oxytocin hormone, there will almost be a certainty that I would. After all, without it, I would be indifferent towards my partner. In fact they did a research on this. Men with lower oxytocin will be more tempted, while the male that they artificially enhanced the oxytocin, were less tempted to cheat. So pretty much the closest to certainty that I would cheat is block my oxytocin hormones, and artificially increase my dopamine levels, add alcohol to lower my inhibitions, and place me in front of a woman that I find attractive, near certainty.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

My ex said the same garbage to me, "It could of happened to you too..." No, because I'm not a piece of trash and I took my vows very seriously. Not everyone has so little willpower that they will lust after anyone who gives them 5 minutes of attention.

It's simply more of rationalization hampster at work so they can alleviate their guilt about during horrible things to you. Cheating is not an accident like spilling milk. It's methodical, calculating and incredibly sordid. You are either capable of it or you are not. 

Believe it or not some people actually have a conscious. Therefore, people who can compartmentalize that away will tend to make ignorant statements like this because they can't fathom the concept of living by a moral code of ethics. It's not how their brains are wired.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

"Mehmet Oz, MD, Cardiology, answered
Different parts of the brain react, depending on the morality of the decisions you make. In some MRI tests, researchers found that the left frontal lobe and temporal lobes were activated when making moral judgments, and it seems that when some of that neural circuitry is injured, our morality can also be impaired. Cats have very small frontal lobes so they tend to not be as compassionate. Women appear to access this part of the brain (not the cats', their own) more than men, especially during childbearing years. In this respect, female brains become more like male brains after menopause."

So something affecting your brain, such as an injury can make you literally sociopathic.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Cutting out testosterone will affect your being. Your body will grow feminine, you will be more emotional, and less aggressive. Hormones do play a part whether you want to believe it or not. If you were to take estrogen pills, over time you would be a different person.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I wonder how I would have felt if she came to me and asked for a divorce, if I would have been cheating just like she was? I mean, would I have cared as much if I had cheated? Would I have been so hurt/harmed? Would I have just smiled and said okay? I mean, I'd at least have had someone to curl up with once in a while. I couldn't though. I had an opportunity. I talked for about a week, maybe 3 times in that week to a woman who seemed interested. It was at a time when my exwife was pulling away and I wanted her more. I felt like I was in a mid-life crisis of sorts. I looked at this woman and all I could think about was the look on my wife's face if I did anything and she found out. I just quit thinking that way around this woman. I just pulled away. I couldn't do anything. I don't know why. Now, after what I've been through, I figure my ex was likely seeing someone and that's why she was pulling away. Sometimes, I think I should have cheated. I just couldn't. Maybe if this woman threw herself on me and started kissing? Nah, I would have been a little offended and worried. Just couldn't.

ETA: As a matter of fact, this woman called me a few times after my ex wife left me. She was drunk and I didn't understand who she was. I was really messed up then. Yeah, worse than now.  Smart asses...

She said my ex wife told her what I liked and she could give me that. I said, " How the fvck would she know?!" hahaha I told her never to call again. :lol:


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Decorum said:


> Discussions like this can generate more heat than light but I would like to enter in and say this.
> 
> I have made statements like this, usually in an attempt to help a WW find their humanity again and grow going forward.


Bingo. That statement isn't always said by someone who has cheated. But it would just seem to me that it is said by those who have because they really want to believe they are not different than those who do not cheat. Therefore they assign the whole, "it can happen to anyone" way of thinking.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I never said "everyone", you did.


Yes, you did.



Rookie4 said:


> The only absolute I believe about human behavior, is the *there is not a single living person*, who can predict it , absolutely.


The bolded is an implied "everyone"


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

I think one can look at it another way. IMO an emotionallty healthy spouse that is cheated on will place all, or nearly all blame for this on the WS. very few exceptions. the emotionally healthy BS will dismiss out of hand the notion that they take any responsibility for gtheir spouse's behavior. whether or not the argument can be made will not matter to them.....they will simply refuse to take it in


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> If I found myself having feelings for someone I would tell my spouse and we would work on things. Is that what we are talking about? that you could surprisingly have feelings for someone one day or that you act on it cause those are two different things


 Yes, this is what I am talking about. You have been focusing on controlling yourself not to have sex with someone as being the same as not having an affair.

A sexless emotional affair (EA) is still very destructive to marriages and is a betrayal. Most people in emotional affairs (EA) do not realize that they are even in one at first. Even if they do end up realizing it, by the time that they do it may have already negatively impacted their marriage as they subconsciously started preferring the company of their EA partner to their spouse. Again, you can control your actions but you cannot control how you feel. Although it is commendable that you would discuss this with your wife, if the end result is divorce, your feelings for this other woman would have still done its damage. Thus if you include EAs, anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances if they have marital boundaries that allowed them to have an EA.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Only time I would cheat would be if my wife had an EA or a PA.... oh wait..........nope not even then


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> semantics.
> 
> The thought being argued here is
> 
> ...


 Wrong. Anyone=possibility. everyone=absolutely, completely different meanings .


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Yes, you did.
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded is an implied "everyone"


Yes, Vellocet, I have used the word "everybody" in a sentence, at some point or other . But your example isn't even the same example used by Dad&Hubby. Is it?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

So, no in Dad& Hubby's example, I did not use "everybody", not at all. Wrong, again.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Wrong. Anyone=possibility. everyone=absolutely, completely different meanings .


 But Rookie, are you ABSOLUTE-ly sure

It seems your arguing for a distinction without a difference. Take a group of 1000 people. Using your vernacular there is a difference between saying all 1000 people are going to cheat, and all 1000 people could possibly cheat under the right circumstances.
Yet what Vell, Wolf, Dad& H. are asserting is that within that group of 1000 people, there are some who will not cheat. Period, End of story. That possibility does not and will not exist. So by throwing those folks back in the pool of current/future cheaters, aren't you creating your own absolute that actually does include all?


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

This argument is illogical. You can't prove a theory without testing it. Saying you will NEVER cheat is a theory. Sure it's based on knowlege of self but it's still just a theory. You cant live a lifetime in a moment so you will never know for sure.

Why is this so hard to understand?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

sinnister said:


> This argument is illogical. You can't prove a theory without testing it. Saying you will NEVER cheat is a theory. Sure it's based on knowlege of self but it's still just a theory. You cant live a lifetime in a moment so you will never know for sure.


 When the theory has been tested by others, it has often failed. By this I mean that cheaters are often people that have stated and believed that they would never cheat.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Wrong. Anyone=possibility. everyone=absolutely, completely different meanings .





Rookie4 said:


> Yes, Vellocet, I have used the word "everybody" in a sentence, at some point or other . But your example isn't even the same example used by Dad&Hubby. Is it?


Wow, you love to argue in the minutia in order to not accept responsibility for your message, stated or implied.

If I say the following two statements...

Anyone, under the right circumstances, has the ability to throw a baseball.
Everyone has the ability throw a baseball.

Do the two WORDS have different meanings?...yes in an individualistic fashion...but LOGICALLY, the statements have the same meanings.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

We often think we know ourselves until something happens that makes us reconsider what we thought we knew.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

sinnister said:


> This argument is illogical. You can't prove a theory without testing it. Saying you will NEVER cheat is a theory. Sure it's based on knowlege of self but it's still just a theory. You cant live a lifetime in a moment so you will never know for sure.
> 
> Why is this so hard to understand?


So what you're saying is no human being should ever say, with conviction, that they won't do ANYTHING?

I see the logic in your, and other's argument. How can you say XYZ will never happen, if you're not on your deathbed?

I guess it's whether or not someone believes in the strength of convictions and integrity.

I'm a man who believes that your personal convictions and your integrity can be stronger than temptation.

I believe there are priests who never have sex and aren't molesters...because they have convictions and integrity.

I believe there are people who will never commit adultery.

I believe there are people who will never steal money.

I believe there are people who live by a moral code, for their entirety of their life.

Are they numerous...probably less than half of the population, but still.

I'm going to use a really bad example..but it makes the point.

Can you say...without a doubt...that you will never molest a child?

I HOPE you can say yes. Because of your convictions and integrity..but under the argument used above...you couldn't.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TRy said:


> Yes, this is what I am talking about. You have been focusing on controlling yourself not to have sex with someone as being the same as not having an affair.
> 
> A sexless emotional affair (EA) is still very destructive to marriages and is a betrayal. Most people in emotional affairs (EA) do not realize that they are even in one at first. Even if they do end up realizing it, by the time that they do it may have already negatively impacted their marriage as they subconsciously started preferring the company of their EA partner to their spouse. Again, you can control your actions but you cannot control how you feel. Although it is commendable that you would discuss this with your wife, if the end result is divorce, your feelings for this other woman would have still done its damage. Thus if you include EAs, anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances if they have marital boundaries that allowed them to have an EA.


Ok then we are talking about too different things completely. And while EA can be destructive depending on the couple and individual they don't always rise to th level of the physical affair.

Had my x wife Come to me and said she had feelings for her coworker we could have worked through it so lo as she was willing to make the appropriate steps. Once she ****ed him in my house our marriage was over.

Two very different things


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

sinnister said:


> This argument is illogical. You can't prove a theory without testing it. Saying you will NEVER cheat is a theory. Sure it's based on knowlege of self but it's still just a theory. You cant live a lifetime in a moment so you will never know for sure.
> 
> Why is this so hard to understand?





TRy said:


> When the theory has been tested by others, it has often failed. By this I mean that cheaters are often people that have stated and believed that they would never cheat.


But you both aren't answering the question. Yes some people claim they would never cheat and yet they do. My x was one of them. But still many others say they will never cheat and then NEVER do. They go to the grave having never cheated on anyone. How can you explain that way? Just luck they didn't? No possibility of strength of conviction or holding themselves accountable? It's just a crap shoot?


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

GTdad said:


> I guess I represent the Cynical Bastard vote, because even though I don't believe in absolutes either, I do believe that just about anybody is capable of just about anything. Five years as an Asst. DA didn't do anything to dissuade me from that view. At all.
> I impose personal boundaries on myself because I do not 100% trust myself. 99%? Probably, but it's that other 1% that I worry about.


GTDad and I share the unfortunate brotherhood of having been exposed, professionally, to the dark underbelly of society where that which “can’t happen”, “shouldn’t happen”, “is unthinkable”, “he or she is too smart, too educated, too upstanding to let happen”, and so and so on – happens.

Bad choices aren’t always conscious, intentional, contemplated or planned. Oftentimes, one may find themselves lulled into a set of circumstances that ultimately crescendo from the innocent, well-intentioned and forthright to the dark, dumb and stupid.

To that end, my observation is that the best time to buy a fire extinguisher is before you have a fire. In-other words never let your guard down.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Those folks, who never cheat were just not attractive enough, man enough, didn't have a good enough job, were too broken, to attract someone other than their spouse. Weren't good enough in bed, didn't have enough self-esteem, didn't want more out of life, had no goals, were losers....


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



2ntnuf said:


> Those folks, who never cheat were just not attractive enough, man enough, didn't have a good enough job, were too broken, to attract someone other than their spouse. Weren't good enough in bed, didn't have enough self-esteem, didn't want more out of life, had no goals, were losers....


Yup, that's me.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

anyone can hit the lottery.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

bfree said:


> We often think we know ourselves until something happens that makes us reconsider what we thought we knew.


Agreed, and to make a point in a different light I am sure there are an endless amount of people who at one time never thought they ever get married or have children and before they know it they are right there in that very environment they so stoically swore they'd never succumb to.

Hell, many, if not all of us, rebelled at adult or general authority during our youth, holding in ill regard the advice given to us with no intention of following it let alone pay attention to it. Then, years later, we find ourselves giving the exact same speeches and advice to our younger children and friends for that matter and observe with irritation when they too disregard these words of wisdom. 

I suppose that I have a bond with the title of this thread due to the passion and conviction my wife once held and preached about lying and cheating since she witnessed the destruction her Father's infidelity invoked on her family before they divorced. And when I say passionate I mean it, often with tears in her eyes when the subject was mentioned. Now, I have no ability to trust her and her diligence in destroying her family for a EA partner is dare I say ballsy. 

Now maybe she too had the same high standards as other here who wish to solidify their place amount the unshakable faithful spouse(s). However the only thing we know for sure is that we will die one day, and that's about it............

Oh yeah, and get treated to another Sharnado movie too. God, those things are awful!!!!


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Ok then we are talking about too different things completely. And while EA can be destructive depending on the couple and individual they don't always rise to th level of the physical affair.
> 
> Had my x wife Come to me and said she had feelings for her coworker we could have worked through it so lo as she was willing to make the appropriate steps. Once she ****ed him in my house our marriage was over.
> 
> Two very different things


 Yeah, I can agree with this in spades. Too many boundaries violated in the same act for selfish reasons; Home, Marriage, place of rest and comfort, you children's safe haven from life.....

But make no mistake Wolf, an EA is just as bad as a PA and unlike a PA they are far more easier to hide than a PA. You can't tell what someone's is thinking or feeling. And the purpose of a EA is to evolve into a PA so although the act hasn't happened, yet, the desire is there with only opportunity and consequences to stop it. Sadly, the former is usually the only deterrent for most people.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'm going to use a really bad example..but it makes the point.
> 
> Can you say...without a doubt...that you will never molest a child?
> 
> I HOPE you can say yes. Because of your convictions and integrity..but under the argument used above...you couldn't.


I'm sorry, but this example, that I think has already been used by another poster, and the one about murders, are, frankly, total bull****...

The point of "Anyone can cheat" is that anyone can be weak enough to fall for something (having sex/a relationship with someone other than his/her spouse) that you would be TEMPTED to do. If you like women and some of them hit on you, you need to exercise your force of will to not act upon the temptation, because they are offering you something that you like.

I can say I won't molest a child and I won't murder anyone (if not to defend my life or the life of my loved ones) because I never felt any kind of desire to do these things so I'm not tempted to do them. I don't need to exercise any will to resist.
It's quite simple.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

So you are only tempted by things for which you previously held a desire? Are you sure about that?


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> So you are only tempted by things for which you previously held a desire? Are you sure about that?


What does this mean?

What I meant was that you can't compare not falling for something you are tempted to do and not doing something you have no interest in doing whatsoever. It's not the same thing, it looks quite obvious to me, you don't think it is? 

Apples and oranges, but I see a lot of people like it that way...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

italianjob said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> What I meant was that you can't compare not falling for something you are tempted to do and not doing something you have no interest in doing whatsoever. It's not the same thing, it looks quite obvious to me, you don't think it is?
> 
> Apples and oranges, but I see a lot of people like it that way...


But some of us have no interest in cheating whatsoever. When someone presents themselves as being interested in us, it isn't actually tempting to those of us who have no interest in cheating. It might be tempting to someone else, but not to us.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

norajane said:


> But some of us have no interest in cheating whatsoever. When someone presents themselves as being interested in us, it isn't actually tempting to those of us who have no interest in cheating. It might be tempting to someone else, but not to us.


Your will makes you decide you won't cheat.
Cheating means to have sex (or a relationship if it's an EA) with another woman/man. If you are attracted to the woman/man approaching you, you are making an act of will rejecting him/her. If your will is weak, you may fall for her/him, because you are attracted so he/she represents a temptation.

I'm not attracted to children sexually. So I don't need an act of will to decide I won't molest one.

That's the difference, and why I think the example has no validity.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

There is still a process by which the opportunities are limited to near zero, that will allow us to even consider as a passing thought, sleeping with someone other than our wife/husband. Even when we believe we have no interest, we are doing and saying things that others who might have an interest in us, will interpret as rejection. Those things are so habitual to some, they aren't even registering.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

italianjob said:


> Your will makes you decide you won't cheat.
> Cheating means to have sex (or a relationship if it's an EA) with another woman/man. If you are attracted to the woman/man approaching you, you are making an act of will rejecting him/her. If your will is weak, you may fall for her/him, because you are attracted so he/she represents a temptation.
> 
> I'm not attracted to children sexually. So I don't need an act of will to decide I won't molest one.
> ...


Attraction doesn't necessarily mean someone will instantly have weak will and cave into an affair.

People with strong will have zero issues saying, "Look, you're hot and everything, but I am not going there." and it's super easy to say it. 

It's a character trait. People that know they won't cheat...know their character and find it really easy to turn people down...yes, even the hot ones.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> Ok then we are talking about too different things completely. And while EA can be destructive depending on the couple and individual they don't always rise to th level of the physical affair.


 If you go to the first post on this thread, the specific topic was "Anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances". It did not say "physical affair" only "affair". In case there was any doubt, I pointed out the distinction in posting my responses. Since an emotional affair is an affair, it qualifies for discussion in this thread. As for being on the same level, many have posted that an EA, where their spouse was in love with someone else, was worse than a drunken one night stand.



Wolf1974 said:


> Had my x wife Come to me and said she had feelings for her coworker we could have worked through it so lo as she was willing to make the appropriate steps. Once she ****ed him in my house our marriage was over.
> 
> Two very different things


 Had your x wife had a non-physical emotional affair were she fell in love with her affair partner, and first had sex with him after she had moved out and filed for divorce because of him, the end result would have been no different, in that her affair lead to your marriage being over.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> *Attraction doesn't necessarily mean someone will instantly have weak will and cave into an affair.*
> People with strong will have zero issues saying, "Look, you're hot and everything, but I am not going there." and it's super easy to say it.
> 
> It's a character trait. People that know they won't cheat...know their character and find it really easy to turn people down...yes, even the hot ones.


No one said that. The point of the post was dismissing an example that was IMO blatantly out of place.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

norajane said:


> But some of us have no interest in cheating whatsoever. When someone presents themselves as being interested in us, it isn't actually tempting to those of us who have no interest in cheating. It might be tempting to someone else, but not to us.


I can completely agree with this one.

I was out picking up lunch just last week and was sitting alone. An attractive woman came up to me, put her hand on my shoulder, was starting to talk with me about "looking lonely".

My ring was out there and in plain view. I didn't feel "tempted"...I felt uncomfortable because she's putting a hand on me. I have VERY strong boundaries and defense mechanisms (at a very deep rooted level) so the first thing that pops in my head when an attractive woman puts a hand on me isn't..."hmm" it's "get that off me, who do you think you are?"


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

italianjob said:


> No one said that. The point of the post was dismissing an example that was IMO blatantly out of place.


I will completely accept your argument based on looking at reasonable points. When we tame this argument to reasonable points, my example of molesting a child is frankly ridiculous. But it was meant to be. 

Many people are taking "under the right circumstances" to an insane level, beyond a reasonable example. The whole "can't predict the future so you can't make an absolute statements" philosophy.

It was under THAT line of thinking that I proposed such an idiotic example. Just like you can say I will never molest or murder (outside of defense of self or family) with conviction, many people can say that about cheating. 

Is it so hard to accept that some people have strong convictions about cheating? Convictions that are stronger than any temptation?


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Originally Posted by Wolf1974 View Post
Had my x wife Come to me and said she had feelings for her coworker we could have worked through it so lo as she was willing to make the appropriate steps. Once she ****ed him in my house our marriage was over.

Two very different things

********************************************************

I agree....All BHs here understand that no matter what a WW does to do her best to R with husband and follows the WS script perfect..As a BH and i would guess most of us here...

She can do everything right...But she can NEVER UNF%&K the OM...EVER!


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Does it count as cheating if you had amnesia, and then you start a relationship with someone else. I mean it has happened before. Man has amnesia, man forgets he has wife, man gains new identity, and man marries new woman. Curious on what people think.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



Mr.Fisty said:


> Does it count as cheating if you had amnesia, and then you start a relationship with someone else. I mean it has happened before. Man has amnesia, man forgets he has wife, man gains new identity, and man marries new woman. Curious on what people think.


Gonna have to remember that one for the future.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

italianjob said:


> I'm sorry, but this example, that I think has already been used by another poster, and the one about murders, are, frankly, total bull****...
> 
> The point of "Anyone can cheat" is that anyone can be weak enough to fall for something (having sex/a relationship with someone other than his/her spouse) that you would be TEMPTED to do. If you like women and some of them hit on you, you need to exercise your force of will to not act upon the temptation, because they are offering you something that you like.
> 
> ...


Ahhh! But you are ignoring the all important detail of under extra special circumstances, anyone can apparently do anything.

I have never desired to be a cheater. So according to your argument, I will never cheat. Because your argument is if you have never desired to do something, you won't do it.

I can't believe some of the silly statements being made. Some people really won't do certain things under any circumstances.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I will completely accept your argument based on looking at reasonable points. When we tame this argument to reasonable points, my example of molesting a child is frankly ridiculous. But it was meant to be.
> 
> Many people are taking "under the right circumstances" to an insane level, beyond a reasonable example. The whole "can't predict the future so you can't make an absolute statements" philosophy.
> 
> ...


First of all, thank you for the tone of your reply, I like it when it's possible to discuss things in a civil manner, agreeing or disagreeing is not very important.

I have no problem with the fact that people have strong convinctions against cheating. I have those convictions myself, even if I fell to temptation once a long time ago. I also have no problem with the fact that some people are convinced their convictions will always be stronger than temptation, I used to believe that too.

My experience and witnessing the experience of others has led me to believe otherwise, so my position is nearer to the "anyone could have an affair under the right (wrong) set of circumstances" than to its opposite, but I'm not really interested in arguing that, because I feel it's something that springs from each person's different experience and thus a very personal evaluation.

My conviction is that human beings have good and bad times in their lives, and are stronger or weaker in different stages. If you're tested when you are strong you will always pass and never fail, but sometimes you get tested when you're weak and you fail. In my case I was tested when I thought I was strong and I wasn't, so I let somebody get too near and succumbed to temptation. I was, in other words, too sure about myself and dismissed the danger too easily. But all of this is just my humble opinion, and you are surely entitled to a different one, and I absolutely respect that.

I called BS on the example you made because I found it out of place and flawed from a logical point of view, that's all.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Ahhh! But you are ignoring the all important detail of under extra special circumstances, anyone can apparently do anything.
> 
> I have never desired to be a cheater. So according to your argument, I will never cheat. Because your argument is if you have never desired to do something, you won't do it.
> 
> *I can't believe some of the silly statements being made*. Some people really won't do certain things under any circumstances.


I can't either


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Ahhh! But you are ignoring the all important detail of under extra special circumstances, anyone can apparently do anything.
> 
> *I have never desired to be a cheater*. So according to your argument, I will never cheat. Because your argument is if you have never desired to do something, you won't do it.
> 
> I can't believe some of the silly statements being made. Some people really won't do certain things under any circumstances.


Well, to be tempted to cheat, you don't have to be interested in "cheating" or in "being a cheater" (like it was some kind of sport) , you have to be interested in women (you should be, you married one after all) and in sex. to be a child molester you must be interested in sex with children. There's a big difference here. That's my argument.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

italianjob said:


> I can't either


O.K. So since you know me so well, as well as others here, you know for a fact that I would cheat given the magic/extreme circumstances.

Could you enlighten me on what else I am capable of? I mean, since you know what I am capable of better than me.

BTW, I should probably let my wife know that I lied to her when I told her everything about me, good and bad, and I told her that cheating was a dealbreaker for me and I was not wired that way, that I will never cheat on her and betray her.

Do you have any advice on how I should break the news to her?

After all, a man claiming godlike omniscient knowledge of me told me that I am lying to her and do not really know myself.

Help me oh guru! I don't know how I have not cheated yet given I have been in a LOT of circumstances over my 23 year relationship. I guess the right combination has not happened yet?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

italianjob said:


> Well, to be tempted to cheat, you don't have to be interested in "cheating" or in "being a cheater" (like it was some kind of sport) , you have to be interested in women (you should be, you married one after all) and in sex. to be a child molester you must be interested in sex with children. There's a big difference here. That's my argument.


Ok by that logic: 

To murder someone, you must be interested in murder....But you're not interested in murder right?

Oh but wait there are special circumstances where you COULD murder someone right? Like defending your family. So, if you defend your family and murdered someone - you're not interested in murder, but you made a *choice *to do what was right for your family. 

Why isn't the same for affairs?

Special circumstances where your life sucks, your H or W is a pain in the a$$, and you see a pretty good looking person who comes on to you....You still have the *choice* to say no.

It's really no different. People make choices that impact their lives on a daily basis. There are just some people who make better choices than others.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> O.K. So since you know me so well, as well as others here, you know for a fact that I would cheat given the magic/extreme circumstances.
> 
> Could you enlighten me on what else I am capable of? I mean, since you know what I am capable of better than me.
> 
> ...


You are capable of writing great BS. That's the only thing I know for sure. Oh, you're also not very good at reading and comprehension


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Ok by that logic:
> 
> To murder someone, you must be interested in murder....But you're not interested in murder right?
> 
> ...


No, by that logic nothing of what you wrote is true. sorry
eta:
More precisely, nothing of what you wrote has anything to do with what I wrote


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

italianjob said:


> No, by that logic nothing of what you wrote is true. sorry
> eta:
> More precisely, nothing of what you wrote has anything to do with what I wrote


Ok. Since you want to be condescending and not further explain your post, why even bother quoting me to respond? I am trying to understand you by not being rude and arguing just to argue. I am asking a question.

The logic you apply cannot be spread universally, though you want to say it can be.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

It looks like it's impossible to have a logical and normal discussion on this thread. It's starting to feel like discussing religion with fundamentalists.

I'm not going to post further here.

Have fun.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cheating is so vile in my sight. I have become physically ill just hearing about it. Few things elicit more outrage, disgust and hatred than the betrayal of infidelity.

Are you clear?

Death has a far sweeter allure than infidelity to me.

Understand?

I feel as strongly about cheating as I do rape and murder.

Don't believe me?

Do you still know me better than myself?


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Ok. Since you want to be condescending and not further explain your post, why even bother quoting me to respond? I am trying to understand you by not being rude and arguing just to argue. I am asking a question.
> 
> The logic you apply cannot be spread universally, though you want to say it can be.


I'll respond to this because it was posted while I was writing the other one.

I was just objecting to the example of child molesting. Nothing else. I think it is out of place because you can't be tempted to do something you don't like, while you can be tempted to have sex with another person. The fact that you will cave or not has nothing to do with what I was discussing. The point was that that example was out of place.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

italianjob said:


> I'll respond to this because it was posted while I was writing the other one.
> 
> I was just objecting to the example of child molesting. Nothing else. I think it is out of place because you can't be tempted to do something you don't like, while you can be tempted to have sex with another person. The fact that you will cave or not has nothing to do with what I was discussing. The point was that that example was out of place.


Ok. I understand the child molesting. But that is one example out of the several that others have posted. 

I thought, from your posts, that you still believe that anyone can cheat simply because we have sex drives. I was only saying, in response to that, is that there are just some of us who know we won't regardless of the circumstance.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Going so soon? I hope you don't trip over fate on your way out and cheat on someone.


Yeah, going... You're just too clever and deep for me...


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Ok. I understand the child molesting. But that is one example out of the several that others have posted.
> 
> I thought, from your posts, that you still believe that anyone can cheat simply because we have sex drives. I was only saying, in response to that, is that there are just some of us who know we won't regardless of the circumstance.




I had posted only to object to that example. I never contested anyone's belief that they won't ever cheat, I'm not that arrogant whatever some poster wrote.
My personal and very humble opinion on the whole matter is in post number 79 and post number 151 if you want to take the time to read them.
i
Now I really must be going, someone might remind me I promised to do so several posts ago


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

italianjob said:


> I'll respond to this because it was posted while I was writing the other one.
> 
> I was just objecting to the example of child molesting. Nothing else. I think it is out of place because you can't be tempted to do something you don't like, while you can be tempted to have sex with another person. The fact that you will cave or not has nothing to do with what I was discussing. The point was that that example was out of place.


I would like to point out an error in your reasoning here; the thread was not about "anyone can have sex", it was posted as "anyone can have an affair".

People are not opposing sex, it's the cheating and betraying element. Is that something to desire?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Sorry about getting rude.

I get a little pissed when someone tells me I would, given the right circumstances, take part in a vile activity that makes my top 5 most hated list.

How about you stop telling me what I could or would do?

I can assure you, I will not betray my wife and my God by the way, with infidelity.

Not everyone looks at the universe the same way as you.

I value nobility and virtue as very high characteristics.

The universe you perceive is a little dim for my tastes.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Sorry about getting rude.
> 
> I get a little pissed when someone tells me I would, given the right circumstances, take part in a vile activity that makes my top 5 most hated list.
> 
> ...


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

italianjob said:


> It looks like it's impossible to have a logical and normal discussion on this thread. It's starting to feel like discussing religion with fundamentalists.
> 
> I'm not going to post further here.
> 
> Have fun.


Hey IJ... your projection seems honest enough. 

For yourself. Talk to your wife about this, not us...


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Hey IJ... Can I date your wife?


You can try, but you better book a room at the hospital, first


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Sorry, but yes, I can. I can say I'll never cheat on someone just like I can say I'll never place my hand on a table and slice off my pinky finger. It just isn't going to happen.
> 
> And honestly, another reason I can say I'll never cheat is I won't be making any commitments in the future. So that kind of helps to solidify it.


Oh no. You mean you can actually choose not to slice a pinky off? Kinda like choosing not to cheat.

I get it. That makes sense. Seems like IJ can choose to cheat but the vast majority of non-hypothetical folks won't.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Oh no. You mean you can actually choose not to slice a pinky off? Kinda like choosing not to cheat.
> 
> I get it. That makes sense. Seems like IJ can choose to cheat but the vast majority of non-hypothetical folks won't.


It would be nice to actually read what someone wrote before spitting around don't you think?

Too much effort?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

italianjob said:


> It would be nice to actually read what someone wrote before spitting around don't you think?
> 
> Too much effort?


Ok then thought we were covering projection. Google it. So you weren't casting your values on others, So what's the basis of all this then...


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Ok then thought we were covering projection. Google it. So you weren't casting your values on others, So what's the basis of all this then...


I had the nerve to contest an example featuring child molesting as out of place. The poster who used it admitted it was out of place himself. My view on the thread subject is in post nn. 79 and 151 if you wish to take the time to read it.

If you can say honestly I was trying to impose my views on Others... judge for yourself.
No reason to Google anything, in my view.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

italianjob said:


> I had the nerve to contest an example featuring child molesting as out of place. The poster who used it admitted it was out of place himself. My view on the thread subject is in post nn. 79 and 151 if you wish to take the time to read it.
> 
> If you can say honestly I was trying to impose my views on Others... judge for yourself.
> No reason to Google anything, in my view.


Then we're all good


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

italianjob said:


> I'm sorry, but this example, that I think has already been used by another poster, and the one about murders, are, frankly, total bull****...
> 
> The point of "Anyone can cheat" is that anyone can be weak enough to fall for something (having sex/a relationship with someone other than his/her spouse) that you would be TEMPTED to do. If you like women and some of them hit on you, you need to exercise your force of will to not act upon the temptation, because they are offering you something that you like.


I view infidelity in the same light as molestation and rape.

You are projecting that since I like sex with my wife, I will like to betray her and have sex with someone else and that I have to use force of will to not cheat.

You may enjoy sexual betrayal and have to restrain yourself but I find it hideous.

I am glad you pushed as hard as you did on this argument because I was mistaken about myself.

I examined myself and found that I really have never been tempted to cheat. I have been tempted to leave once or twice in 23 years but never cheat.

Not even once.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

italianjob said:


> I had the nerve to contest an example featuring child molesting as out of place. The poster who used it admitted it was out of place himself. My view on the thread subject is in post nn. 79 and 151 if you wish to take the time to read it.
> 
> If you can say honestly I was trying to impose my views on Others... judge for yourself.
> No reason to Google anything, in my view.


You also had the nerve to say that since people like sex that they are tempted with sexual betrayal.

You certainly were. I am not and there are more who really are not tempted to betray sexually.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I view infidelity in the same light as molestation and rape.


*** My sincere apologies to Vellocet for the thread jack. 

Conan, infidelity is wrong. Always, every single time, 100% wrong. The devastation that comes with is is far reaching. It can destroy individuals, as well as entire families, friendships, careers, etc. 

With that having been said, molestation and rape involve criminally (and physically) forcing someone to do something against their will. 

Infidelity, as horrific as it is, is not even remotely comparable to molestation or rape. Not even close.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EI said:


> *** My sincere apologies to Vellocet for the thread jack.
> 
> Conan, infidelity is wrong. Always, every single time, 100% wrong. The devastation that comes with is is far reaching. It can destroy individuals, as well as entire families, friendships, careers, etc.
> 
> ...


Having endured both molestation and rape, I would agree. They do not require the same consequences or inflict the same damage.

Someone who commits adultery is not even close to the same and I am truly sorry to have been understood that way.

The revulsion that I would feel by committing adultery rivals that of me molesting a child or raping a woman.

Not going to happen.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I view infidelity in the same light as molestation and rape.
> 
> You are projecting that since I like sex with my wife, I will like to betray her and have sex with someone else and that I have to use force of will to not cheat.
> 
> ...


For the last time:
The post you quoted was discussing an example featuring child molestation. I was arguing that the example was out of place and logically flawed because there is no possibility to be tempted to do something you wouldn't want to do (sex with children) while it's possible to be tempted to to something you actually like to do (sex with a woman). That was the only point I was discussing. I'm not projecting anything and I'm not insinuating that you or anybody else will do anything in any way. I think it's quite easy to get that point reading the sequence of posts, but then again, english is not my Language so maybe it was my fault, and I wasn't clear. if that's the case I'm sorry, but I suspect you just didn't take the time to contestualize.


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



ConanHub said:


> Having endured both molestation and rape, I would agree. They do not require the same consequences or inflict the same damage.
> 
> Someone who commits adultery is not even close to the same and I am truly sorry to have been understood that way.
> 
> ...


Is not just the consequences of molestation and rape being far beyond that of infidelity. They are completely different concepts. 

One involved force and an unwilling participant. 

The other is a voluntary act between consenting individuals.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> You also had the nerve to say that since people like sex that they are tempted with sexual betrayal.
> 
> You certainly were. I am not and there are more who really are not tempted to betray sexually.


No I didn't and no, I wasn't. See above post.

Please, put me in your ignore list and don't quote me anymore.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Then we're all good


Looks like we weren't...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> But Rookie, are you ABSOLUTE-ly sure
> 
> It seems your arguing for a distinction without a difference. Take a group of 1000 people. Using your vernacular there is a difference between saying all 1000 people are going to cheat, and all 1000 people could possibly cheat under the right circumstances.
> Yet what Vell, Wolf, Dad& H. are asserting is that within that group of 1000 people, there are some who will not cheat. Period, End of story. That possibility does not and will not exist. So by throwing those folks back in the pool of current/future cheaters, aren't you creating your own absolute that actually does include all?


Point#1 To paraphrase Carl Sagan, it's a big old universe out there with an infinite number of possibilities. Point#2 you aren't catching what I'm pitching. It is about the OP's original phraseology. Anyone can/cannot, has a built in exception. Everyone can/cannot is an absolute. Vellocet is saying the first, but he means the second. By saying anyone can, he is working against himself. It's a logic problem.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Wow, you love to argue in the minutia in order to not accept responsibility for your message, stated or implied.
> 
> If I say the following two statements...
> 
> ...


No, you are wrong. the two words are different and mean different things. That is the main reason that Vellocet's original post is wrong. Because in this particular logic problem, "anyone" is the refutation of "everyone".


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> So what you're saying is no human being should ever say, with conviction, that they won't do ANYTHING?
> 
> I see the logic in your, and other's argument. How can you say XYZ will never happen, if you're not on your deathbed?
> 
> ...


The problem you are having, is that you are attempting to create a moral absolute. There is no such thing. All morality is subjective. This has been proven historically time after time. Always remember, "one man's tuna, is another man's cat food", and you'll be about right.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> But here is the flaw in this.
> 
> Some people don't allow their "situation" to ever reach the "circumstances" where they would cheat.
> 
> ...


Well said! I agree whole heartedly. I could never cheat...1st off its wrong and a violation against God, his covenant between me and my wife. 2nd the guilt would destroy me. Years ago I had a dream I was with a girl and woke up in the middle of it and the guilt was overwhelming for several days. Never seen the dream girl before. I could never murder....the killing of an innocent. Abortion is murder...killing a posom who knows your wife is married, or killing a rapist or molester who hurt your wife or child is homicide....not murder...they are not innocent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Cheating is so vile in my sight. I have become physically ill just hearing about it. Few things elicit more outrage, disgust and hatred than the betrayal of infidelity.
> 
> Are you clear?
> 
> ...


Better watch out. I had said some things in a discussion before and philly misunderstood and made accusations about what I meant. He grabbed the steering whel and jerked it left of center and caused a head on collision. Before I could respond to him to clarify things aanother girl believed his accusations againste and she went side ways on me and we both got banned and they closed the thread. I never even got to clarify things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> So what you're saying is no human being should ever say, with conviction, that they won't do ANYTHING?
> 
> I see the logic in your, and other's argument. How can you say XYZ will never happen, if you're not on your deathbed?
> 
> ...


Sort of. What I'm saying is in matters as fluid and hectic as a long term relationship it is very difficult to be absolute about how one would act in all scenario's.

In situations that you've identified dealing with more concrete subjects it's easier to be speak in absolutes.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

jin said:


> Is not just the consequences of molestation and rape being far beyond that of infidelity. They are completely different concepts.
> 
> One involved force and an unwilling participant.
> 
> The other is a voluntary act between consenting individuals.


He is trying to say the act of him committing adultry is as hideous as him committing rape or child molestation. The pain all cause can be severe...look at the BS who commit suicide or go kill POSOM/W. That was the points I was trying to make when I got banned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChristianGrey (Nov 27, 2014)

Anyone can have an affair once one has created the right conditions for it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ChristianGrey said:


> Anyone can have an affair once one has created the right conditions for it.


Or have the right conditions created, regardless of who does the creating.


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## ChristianGrey (Nov 27, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Or have the right conditions created, regardless of who does the creating.


That will be Revenge Sex?

Very kinky stuff.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> He is trying to say the act of him committing adultry is as hideous as him committing rape or child molestation. The pain all cause can be severe...look at the BS who commit suicide or go kill POSOM/W. That was the points I was trying to make when I got banned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank You.

That was my exact point. I had a good friend that was a BS years ago. He could not take so much pain without relief. He had moved to another state at the urging of his wife only to find out after he had moved away from all his friends and family that she had moved them closer to her AP.

This was before cell phones prevailed and I only had one conversation with him. He sounded like he was toughing it out and the next I heard, he was dead.

I had nightmares and cried on and off for months. I felt guilty for not doing more. I went through all the horrible emotional stages of tragically losing someone close.

So yes, I have a pretty fvcking strong emotional/mental/physical aversion to cheating. I would go so far to say that my hatred is at an unhealthy level but rest assured, I will never cheat.

I also grew up witnessing loads of sexual misconduct and the wonderful repercussions.

Cheating? No. Thank you very much, I have had more than enough pain in my life.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Nope, more like jumping into deep water. Some will do it willingly, others need to be coaxed, and some need to be pushed.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

italianjob said:


> For the last time:
> The post you quoted was discussing an example featuring child molestation. I was arguing that the example was out of place and logically flawed because there is no possibility to be tempted to do something you wouldn't want to do (sex with children) while it's possible to be tempted to to something you actually like to do (sex with a woman). That was the only point I was discussing. I'm not projecting anything and I'm not insinuating that you or anybody else will do anything in any way. I think it's quite easy to get that point reading the sequence of posts, but then again, english is not my Language so maybe it was my fault, and I wasn't clear. if that's the case I'm sorry, but I suspect you just didn't take the time to contestualize.


I get what you are maybe trying to say but your statement is not universally true. Some people will never cheat, nor are they tempted, under any circumstances.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Or have the right conditions created, regardless of who does the creating.


I don't understand this.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't understand this.


 simply put, the conditions for cheating are not always created solely by the WS. They usually have help.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I get what you are maybe trying to say but your statement is not universally true. Some people will never cheat, nor are they tempted, under any circumstances.


Yet another absolute statement. And no more believable than the first one.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> simply put, the conditions for cheating are not always created solely by the WS. They usually have help.


I disagree.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Yet another absolute statement. And no more believable than the first one.


Rookie, you are blowing wind past your teeth right now. If you don't understand that some people would sooner die than perform certain acts then you are ignoring a great deal of history.

There have been many throughout history that accepted death or great loss instead of complying.

They lived an absolute. They, under no circumstances, even death or threat of great loss, would perform certain acts or comply with certain ideologies.

There are so many examples of people gladly accepting death over simply denying their God.

Some people will never succumb to certain things. Yes, that is an absolute and yes it is historically documented.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



ConanHub said:


> I get what you are maybe trying to say but your statement is not universally true. Some people will never cheat, nor are they tempted, under any circumstances.


I understand what you're saying here, but I have to disagree... to a point. I think that there may be a point where even those who have an extremely visceral reaction to the idea may do it. We can come up with all sorts of scenarios and say "I would never..." but the fact is you cannot truly say that unless in that position AND you don't do it. Same applies to the fWS who say "I will never do it again." Sorry, but I, as a fWS, won't say "I will never do it again." I will, however, say "I hope I never do it again." Why? Because I know that I COULD because I DID. Mine was never physical, but I am still not so naive as to believe that I couldn't have had a PA, because I had EA. And, this may pi$$ some fWS off, but I don't believe even one who says "I will never"... but I DO believe those who say "I hope I will never."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I understand what you're saying here, but I have to disagree... to a point. I think that there may be a point where even those who have an extremely visceral reaction to the idea may do it. We can come up with all sorts of scenarios and say "I would never..." but the fact is you cannot truly say that unless in that position AND you don't do it. Same applies to the fWS who say "I will never do it again." Sorry, but I, as a fWS, won't say "I will never do it again." I will, however, say "I hope I never do it again." Why? Because I know that I COULD because I DID. Mine was never physical, but I am still not so naive as to believe that I couldn't have had a PA, because I had EA. And, this may pi$$ some fWS off, but I don't believe even one who says "I will never"... but I DO believe those who say "I hope I will never."


I will believe what you say about yourself. However, there are people, documented history, that simply won't.

I do know that there are also people that won't under most circumstances but will under others.

Some people just won't.

It might be difficult to understand. You and I and others might simply have a different fundamental core.

There are things, I assume, that you would not do under any circumstances? Are you without limits?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I won't cheat but I could kill, maybe even murder. I could steal, I could commit fraud.

If I was single, I could even conceivably sleep with someone for work, spy related or straight up prostitution.

I find all of these ugly and disgusting but I could conceivably perform them under certain circumstances.

I can say with certainty that I would never murder the heart of my wife.

I would hope that I never do many things but I have to be on guard more intensely to prevent.

It is, however, against my very core to do certain things and I never will.


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## Hope12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

Along the same lines of being told anyone can have an affair, our MC went to great lengths one session to attempt to convince me monogamy is very difficult. I told her it never was for me, and found her comment insulting. That, along with her constantly redirecting the focus to my controlling issues when I attempted to discuss her cheating, made me realize that MC, or at least this MC, wasn't for me.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

We will have to agree to disagree on this one, Conan. Because I do not believe there is anyone who could not cheat, under any circumstances. I just do not believe it. Same with killing, sleeping with someone for work, etc. I refuse to say "I would never do that" because, frankly, under different circumstances, I probably could, even though the ideas repulse me. So, sorry, I do not believe "I will never", no matter how much someone protests.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

A little late to the fight here.

The one question I have to ask would be...

When people cheat, is it at a low point in a marriage or during a time of bliss?

I had many many years of sobriety... when I made that decision to drink, I wasn't at a low point in my life... I was actually very happy and for some stupid reason, I thought I was strong enough to handle it... 

I am under the impression when an affair is discovered, it comes as a shock to the bs.Most come here to say "my marriage was perfect and my spouse cheated"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Thank You.
> 
> That was my exact point. I had a good friend that was a BS years ago. He could not take so much pain without relief. He had moved to another state at the urging of his wife only to find out after he had moved away from all his friends and family that she had moved them closer to her AP.
> 
> ...


Conan, you come from a POV of what cheating will do. I totally believe that you would die before you would cheat. 

I also think that TAM has prevented many would be cheaters because we learn the destruction of infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Trickster said:


> A little late to the fight here.
> 
> The one question I have to ask would be...
> 
> ...


Yep, that's what many do. Others are different. I have not cheated. My personal opinion is that there are those who decide to test the waters a little. Yes, I would guess that they have what they believe is a good reason. I know in some cases, they have a very good reason to divorce or at minimum, separate and get counseling.

I seriously doubt they would want their spouse to realize just how bad they think the marriage is, if they want to keep their activities clandestine. I don't know why anyone would want to send an alarm to their spouse, if they would be thinking of looking to replace their spouse. 

I imagine there are those who make it quite clear they are pursuing others for meeting needs. I don't think this is a one size fits all answer. I do think there are similarities in all affairs. I think it all depends on their abilities to take care of themselves, their confidence, their support network, and so on and so forth.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Returning to the OP... everybody CAN have an affair, but not everyone WILL have an affair. I think this thread shows just how different we all view the severity of infidelity.

Some differences seem to be rooted in that some seem to view infidelity as a major offense against their partner, a knife in the back, and therefore they don't see them selves as being capable of commiting this kind of betrayal, while others see it as just a small bump on the road mixed with sexual pleasure - and therefore admit to being tempted once in a while.

I'll admit that i'm tempted to experience intimacy and sex with other women once in while, and did the thought about having RA's cross my mind? You bet!

But I'm not willing to pay the price carrying trough, no matter if I have to discuss it with my wife or not.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this one, Conan. Because I do not believe there is anyone who could not cheat, under any circumstances. I just do not believe it. Same with killing, sleeping with someone for work, etc. I refuse to say "I would never do that" because, frankly, under different circumstances, I probably could, even though the ideas repulse me. So, sorry, I do not believe "I will never", no matter how much someone protests.



Many years ago, my dad told me about an affair he was having. He admitted he was having plenty of sex with my step mom, the OW made him feel diffrent...He was 69 years old and was telling me about doing 69 at 69 years old for the first time and if I haven't done that yet to do it...He made me part of his affair. I met the OW as well as her whole family. He told her my mom passed away...I had very little respect for him. However my step mom was the OW years before. Paybacks, I thought.

Several years later, my step-sister told me she thought my dad had a woman on the side. Well, I confirmed it with pics of her and everything...

I said something like I would never do that. "Don't judge what you don't understand"...

I finally understand now that I am in a loveless marriage...

IMO people who say they could cheat, something is missing in the marriage. When a person eventually comes along and provides that what is missing, they may not be sure they would turn that down...

When I hear a person say,"trust me, would I lie to you?" I just think hmmm...

I waited many years before getting married. I told my wife that I didn't know if I could be faithful. Especially with my history. Those words weren't a deal breaker for her. She said I was being honest with my feelings. My marriage is screwed anyway and she wonders why I don't have a woman on the side...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Rookie, you are blowing wind past your teeth right now. If you don't understand that some people would sooner die than perform certain acts then you are ignoring a great deal of history.
> 
> There have been many throughout history that accepted death or great loss instead of complying.
> 
> ...


It is historically documented because these people are incredibly rare.
So rare it was worth documenting for the ages.

The vast majority of people are capable of and in fact do indeed cheat at one time or another.
This is a simple fact that cannot be missed by simply paying attention to the humanity around you.

I think many in this thread just lack the imagination that could come up with a scenario that would cause them to be unfaithful.

Would I cheat?
I don't know.
What I do know is it would take a seriously bad situation to get me to that point.

That's the best I can do.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> Yeah, I can agree with this in spades. Too many boundaries violated in the same act for selfish reasons; Home, Marriage, place of rest and comfort, you children's safe haven from life.....
> 
> But make no mistake Wolf, an EA is just as bad as a PA and unlike a PA they are far more easier to hide than a PA. You can't tell what someone's is thinking or feeling. And the purpose of a EA is to evolve into a PA so although the act hasn't happened, yet, the desire is there with only opportunity and consequences to stop it. Sadly, the former is usually the only deterrent for most people.


Never lived through an EA and lots can be involved with that. To much to say for sure 100% if that it would totally end a marriage for me or not. What I do know is a physical affair 100% was an end of my maririage and would be for any future relationships. It's 100% unforgivable


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TRy said:


> If you go to the first post on this thread, the specific topic was "Anyone can have an affair under the right circumstances". It did not say "physical affair" only "affair". In case there was any doubt, I pointed out the distinction in posting my responses. Since an emotional affair is an affair, it qualifies for discussion in this thread. As for being on the same level, many have posted that an EA, where their spouse was in love with someone else, was worse than a drunken one night stand.
> 
> Had your x wife had a non-physical emotional affair were she fell in love with her affair partner, and first had sex with him after she had moved out and filed for divorce because of him, the end result would have been no different, in that her affair lead to your marriage being over.


Still not the same. In that version SHE made the choice to leave and I had no power to change that. In the reality of what actually happend she had a physical affair and I ended the marriage, that was my choice.

if an EA is 100% deal break for you than ok. I won't say that it is for me. Would have to live it first. I only know that a physical affair is 100% deal breaker for me and stick by that. I don't see them as the same but opinions vary on what others consider 100% deal breakers.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Rookie, you are blowing wind past your teeth right now. If you don't understand that some people would sooner die than perform certain acts then you are ignoring a great deal of history.
> 
> There have been many throughout history that accepted death or great loss instead of complying.
> 
> ...


I understand principles fully, but I'm also not fool enough to believe that they are anything other than subjective, and that absolute principles vary according to the cultural background, and inclination of the individual. In other words, absolutes are not absolutes, except in the mind of the individual person, and not the game plan for the universe. Many people have indeed died for their principles, but more often they will kill for them. That is my biggest concern. Absolutes are for heroes, saints, and paragons, but also for Fascists, bigots, and murderers. The only difference is which side of the gun you are on, and the only similarity is narrow mindedness.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I believe that anybody could cheat,steal,murder.....etc given the right circumstance.

nobody can say for absolute positive know how they will respond until the situation arises.


the key word is could!!!!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tacoma said:


> It is historically documented because these people are incredibly rare.
> So rare it was worth documenting for the ages.
> 
> *The vast majority of people are capable of and in fact do indeed cheat at one time or another.*
> ...


Humanity sucks. No wonder I was so close to suicide. Why live with people who do not understand me nor I them? This was part of my thinking, actually. 

I don't lack the imagination. First off, she'd have to be really hot. Then I'd be asking myself why she was interested in me?

Full stop. No cheating. 

Next, I'd have to be so horny, that just masturbation would not keep me going till I could get a divorce. Can't see that happening.

Full stop. No cheating. 

So, then you might say, "Don't you need hugs?" Well, yes. You don't get them? No. Aren't you going to die? Eventually. Your life span will shorten. Probably, but if I'm not getting what I need to lengthen it, that's likely best case scenario. 

Full stop. No cheating. 

I don't get why it's so hard to understand. I guess it has to do with the thoughts that everything changes. Nothing stays the same? So, we can't really mean it when we commit to anything. It's impossible to commit because we don't know what life will bring? Is that it? I sure would like to understand the other side as much as they would like to understand me. I don't even know where to begin.

ETA: I'd like to add that, if everyone cheats, or most, then why would I want to have sex with them? Integrity is a turn-on for me. I try my best to have integrity. When I am proven to be faulty, it bothers me and I then don't think about sex. So, I wouldn't even try very hard, because it wouldn't work. Just like the example I gave from my life. I just couldn't. She wasn't that attractive. I wasn't that horny and that was a time when I was in mid-life crisis. Previously, I was having sex regularly with x2 and she(x2) curtailed that to a point I wanted more and thought of other ways to get it and leaving. Yes, me, believe it or not. I still just could not do it and this woman was willing. 

It, Was, My, Choice... All, Along, The, Way...

Maybe if you look in the mirror and say this, the truth will sink in...


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm afraid I haven't got the stamina to read through 15 pages...sorry!! But I did read the first and the last.

Anyone 'can' have an affair...physically able person 'can' stab someone through the heart. But 'would' they.
If my wife, children or I were being attacked and feared for our lives then there is no question that I 'could' and 'would' stab someone through the heart.

Affair - I think we would all like to believe and trust ourselves that we wouldn't. Irrespective of religion we all make the same sort of oath..'with my body I thee honour foresaking all others' etc.
At the time we we said 'I do' we all meant it.

In teh 'Sex in Marriage' section there are many men (and increasingly women) who are in sexless marriages but stay put, for now, because they love their children more than anything. They need their children in their lives all the time not just on alternate weekends.

However we are all human and have our needs. I beleive that a man (or woman) who is in a sexless relationship is far more likely to 'wander' than one who isn't.

A colleague at work starts saying good morning to you, asking how you are, smiling at you etc etc. You appreciate the attention - you're normal - you respond...maybe you don't really want to but hey, you're normal.

One thing leads to another and before long you are having an affair. You feel WOW! Maybe its just a FWB situation...but you are having good sex...you feel great!

I am NOT saying that it is right to have an affair. BUT, if you are starving and have no money will you steal a loaf of bread? Yes. Is it wrong? Yes...but....

And that is all I am saying. Many people on TAM are very quick to judge. Stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong, but we are all human.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

askari said:


> I'm afraid I haven't got the stamina to read through 15 pages...sorry!! But I did read the first and the last.
> 
> Anyone 'can' have an affair...physically able person 'can' stab someone through the heart. But 'would' they.
> If my wife, children or I were being attacked and feared for our lives then there is no question that I 'could' and 'would' stab someone through the heart.
> ...


Absolutely, sexless relationship over years and years would be the one that a person should leave, way before the affair. Isn't that a choice to forsake the marriage for personal reasons? Isn't there another choice? Yes, the children are important. What are they learning in a loveless marriage? Are their parents teaching them how to be unhappy? Are they dooming them to a loveless life and finding a way to cheat, while staying for posterity? That's sick, whether it's normal or not. 

At one time in history, it was normal to go to the games and watch as men and women were fed to lions. They were trampled by elephants forced to run over them. They were set against each other to fight to the death. They were made to light paths with their burning flesh fastened to wooden poles. That was normal. Some were against it. They likely weren't understood either. 

Food and starvation due to the lack of it, is the ONLY place where that scenario is true.(And if I'm not mistaken, that was about walking through a field of grain while it was growing and picking a little to eat, before any harvesting work had been done. It was not about going into a supermarket and making a sandwich using a bun from a bag, a few slices of lunch meat, tearing off a leaf of lettuce, cutting a tomato and opening a bottle of mustard to squeeze some on. Oh, I forgot, you don't want to get any on yourself, so you better open a package of napkins and a one of paper plates. You won't need the china plates, just the regular paper is good.  ) No, Where, Else, Period. Mankind takes things way too far. We say if this is okay, then that is. Finally, we justify anything that seems to benefit us, without regard for the negative impact on others. 

There are ways to limit that impact. Integrity allows us to use those ways in consideration of others. Many say they love men or women and that's why they are so sexual. If that were true, wouldn't they want to limit the pain and suffering they cause to others? 

Why bother committing to anything? Basically, we are all cheaters? None of us is worthy of anything? So, I've wasted my whole life committing to two marriages? I should have cheated all the way through my life, cause that's what they likely did and believed. So, marriage is a joke? Why is this site here? Maybe it should be entitled, Talk About Open Marriages? Talk About Lack of Integrity? Talk About Justification in Marriage? 

Oh, but wait. There are certain things which cannot and will not ever be accepted. We all who justify anything will decide what can and cannot be accepted. Those will be justified as well, eventually. Hey, if I'm hungry, I can steal, so...we are all human and make mistakes, so...why do we have prisons? Why are there any laws at all? We can justify anything. Someone had to murder their wife or husband for catching them cheating. I bet many would say, community service and counseling would be enough. If you are starved of sex, wouldn't you be able to justify rape or prostitution? It's not, though. Why?


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

2ntnuf - I perhaps rambled too much. Sorry. 

My wife and I don't have sex, but neither do we fight. I love her but am not 'in' love with her. Our children don't know that we don't have sex because we have never made a habit of doing it in front of them.

All I am trying to get across is that before casting judgement on people, you need to know the circumstances.

Just as murder gets reduced to manslaughter because of extenuating circumstances...still wrong but you can understand what drove the person to do it.

Why did you have an affair? Because my wife dislikes sex and refuses to have sex with me.
OK...still 'guilty' but we can understand WHY you did it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

askari said:


> 2ntnuf - I perhaps rambled too much. Sorry.
> 
> My wife and I don't have sex, but neither do we fight. I love her but am not 'in' love with her. Our children don't know that we don't have sex because we have never made a habit of doing it in front of them.
> 
> ...


And this thread is about some folks not being able to understand why someone would do that. 

Listen, you don't have to have sex in front of your children. Think a little bit. Don't you think there is a difference in how a man and woman who want each other look at their spouse, talk with their spouse, touch their spouse, and do almost everything with their spouse? That's my point. 

You are showing the children what you believe is the best marriage. Otherwise, you'd show them something different. They are learning the wrong things.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Humanity sucks. No wonder I was so close to suicide. Why live with people who do not understand me nor I them? This was part of my thinking, actually.
> 
> I don't lack the imagination. First off, she'd have to be really hot. Then I'd be asking myself why she was interested in me?
> 
> ...


Yup, lacking imagination.

I stumbled across a reddit post a few weeks ago from a guy who was considering cheating.
Tried to find it but it's gone.

Anyway, this guy was in his 60's been married to his wife in her 70's for 40+ years never strayed, loves her still.

Wife has cancer, been on the decline battling it for well over a decade, she's bedridden but hanging on.
He hasn't had sex/intimacy in 12 years, just works and takes care of his dying wife who is so doped on pain killers all the time she often doesn't know who he is when he speaks to her.

He has a friend he met at one of the numerous doctors offices he frequents due to his wifes illness.
This friend is in her 60's and her husband is dying of cancer as well, pretty much in the same boat as he and his wife.

They have bonded over their shared experience and and it's obvious there's a shared attraction and desperate need by both of them for some intimacy, even if it's only intellectual but neither of them have even discussed the tension in the air.
They are just friends.

He was asking if it would be ok to have lunch with this woman because he feared ..no, he "knew" it would be the event that led to some type of infidelity even if only emotional/intellectual.
He wants it desperately and really how can you blame him for wanting it?

Don't know what he decided but I know I hope like hell I'm never in his shoes.

Regardless of whether you'd give the guy a pass to have lunch with his friend or not his story isn't as black and white as most here would have me believe infidelity "always" is.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Can't blame him for wanting intimacy and sex. 

Maybe it would be best for you and your spouse to talk about this? If you are in a similar situation, you will know what to do.

This is the in sickness part of the vows. It's up to him to make a choice. It's not my place. 

Do I feel bad for him? Sure. 

Still, there are many ways we can justify cheating. There are as many unique situations as there are lives. 

I haven't had any in years. Would a man be hurt if his wife felt bad enough to give me pity sex? Would that be disrespectful to him? Would it matter if he was ill or would that be even more disrespectful since he can't defend his marriage? What kind of a dirt bag would do that to a defenseless woman or man?


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

iwontliedown said:


> This thread has got too serious. Just to make it light here is a joke. Sorry in advance if anyone finds this offensive.
> 
> What is Vicious Circle???
> The boss calls his secretary & says:
> ...


Yup - heard this before and it fits this thread.

Also, "one size does not fit all", and the only absolute on this rock we live on is that we will all die some day.


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

Time and tide makes monsters of us all...


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I will no doubt be roasted for this but all here who claim that anyone can cheat believes in predestination in that we have no control over our own lives. I do not ask that you believe me but I will not cheat. I am in control of very few things in life but my honor and integrity I do control and some piece of ***sy isn't worth my self esteem, period. I am HD and my wife, after 3 months of marriage became very LD. In over thirty years I have never stepped outside of my marriage nor will I. You can call me a liar if you so choose but your words cannot alter reality. I choose, though it's really not a choice no more than a Zebra can choose not to have stripes. My honor and integrity dictate my actions and it should be that way in all who claim to be highly developed beings.

Grab your skewers and let the roasting begin. I can feel the heat already.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't see why anyone would roast you over expressing your opinion, wrong though it is. Predestination is just as much an absolute as any other moral "law" and is based on opinion, not any physical imperative. You are just expressing the idea that life is fixed into place, so you are in point of fact agreeing with predestination. Re-read your own post. It makes no sense, at first you aregue against predestination, by the end of your post, you are supporting it. By stating you have no choice.
Get off the fence.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

The Zebra analogy is also wrong. Zebras have stripes because they need to have them. Not because they want to have them or their honor makes them. You are confusing objective with subjective. It's all Darwinian.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Good grief.
Opinions are wrong now.
Talk about absolutes.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> Good grief.
> Opinions are wrong now.
> Talk about absolutes.


Yeah, you can tell the truth, and live it, but your opinion is wrong. 

What dumb goofy bluster.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> The Zebra analogy is also wrong. Zebras have stripes because they need to have them. Not because they want to have them or their honor makes them. You are confusing objective with subjective. It's all Darwinian.


What a childish way to try and make yourself feel smart. 

He used the analogy properly, as millions before him have: that Zebras cannot choose whether or not they have stripes. You misinterpreted, then tried to belittle someone else to build yourself up.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> The Zebra analogy is also wrong. Zebras have stripes because they need to have them. Not because they want to have them or their honor makes them. You are confusing objective with subjective. It's all Darwinian.


Your post is what I meant by "roasted". The word roasted is actually a metaphor for being accused of being wrong and inaccurate in my opinion based on a much wiser and more developed interpretation. 

Where in my post do I state that I do not believe in predestination?

Perhaps advanced beings "need" honor and integrity if they are to actually qualify as advanced in the same way that a Zebra needs stripes to qualify as a Zebra. Darwin believed in survival of the fittest and an advanced being without honor and integrity is not very fit for the purpose of an advanced societal existence.

Your opinion has been acknowledged.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I'm late to the thread, missed a lot of responses. For me "right circumstances" does not mean that there is opportunity of not being discovered so you go ahead and cheat on your lovely spouse.. It rather means that when your relationship is struggling, or dead, and then the opportunity comes, it is harder to resist it. It is tempting to feel again desired, and wanted, and feel passion that was missing in your life. Especially when there are not feeling left in your marriage, or the only feelings left are resentment and pain.

BTW - in "His needs, Her needs" - the bible of TAM, even the author says that everybody has potential to do it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> I'm late to the thread, missed a lot of responses. For me "right circumstances" does not mean that there is opportunity of not being discovered so you go ahead and cheat on your lovely spouse.. It rather means that when your relationship is struggling, or dead, and then the opportunity comes, it is harder to resist it. It is tempting to feel again desired, and wanted, and feel passion that was missing in your life. Especially when there are not feeling left in your marriage, or the only feelings left are resentment and pain.
> 
> BTW - in "His needs, Her needs" - the bible of TAM, even the author says that everybody has potential to do it.


Everyone is a "potential" anything. Dumb argument. Most people have some limits. There is usually something that a person won't do no matter what. Infidelity makes my list. What is on yours?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Let me rephrase the title: Anyone can CHOOSE to have an affair.

I, myself, as a BS choose not to ever. I truly can say I would never chose to hurt another person like that so deeply.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CantePe said:


> Let me rephrase the title: Anyone can CHOOSE to have an affair.
> 
> I, myself, as a BS choose not to ever. I truly can say I would never chose to hurt another person like that so deeply.


Amen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

CantePe said:


> Let me rephrase the title: Anyone can CHOOSE to have an affair.
> 
> I, myself, as a BS choose not to ever. I truly can say I would never chose to hurt another person like that so deeply.


What if you think they won't be really hurt?


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



WandaJ said:


> What if you think they won't be really hurt?


Problem is I don't think that way and I already know from experience that it damn well does hurt people whether they find out about it or not.

The affair takes away from the spouse in the areas of emotional connect, physical connection, time from the relationship, etc.

It hurts people whether the person doing it thinks it does or doesn't.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

CantePe said:


> Let me rephrase the title: Anyone can CHOOSE to have an affair.
> 
> I, myself, as a BS choose not to ever. I truly can say I would never chose to hurt another person like that so deeply.


I agree. 

Why do I feel like this thread was started as a justification for some inappropriate actions?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I agree.
> 
> Why do I feel like this thread was started as a justification for some inappropriate actions?


This thread was actually in response to a theme often found on TAM. That it could happen to anyone. Like Alzheimer's or something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> I agree.
> 
> Why do I feel like this thread was started as a justification for some inappropriate actions?


Probably pretty accurate. The implicit message, anyway.

Anyone can fall down the stairs. Yep, you never know. Basically, everyone is in this category. Random.

The "anyone can have an affair" idea belongs in a different category. Not random. It there with "anyone can become a pedophile" or "anyone can embezzle from their employer". Its very controllable. You consciously cross a line.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> This thread was actually in response to a theme often found on TAM. That it could happen to anyone. Like Alzheimer's or something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, but I'm finding a ....., pattern or theme (?), to the OP's previous threads and posts. (I having trouble finding the right word.)


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> This thread was actually in response to a theme often found on TAM. That it could happen to anyone. Like Alzheimer's or something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ahhh. Maybe if I got Alzheimer's first.
The bottom line is how we are to define the word "can". If "can" means having the physical ability then absolutely, anyone with the appropriate equipment "can". If however, we define "can" as not being able to resist under a set of specific circumstances then some people, myself included, cannot.

This thread is seemingly more about semantics than information.

Some interesting takes on the subject though.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Let's hope you never find out.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Good grief.
> Opinions are wrong now.
> Talk about absolutes.


His opinion is simply that....his opinion. I believe it to be wrong....which is MY opinion. Nothing absolute about any disagreement. All opinions are subjective, and can be either right or wrong according to the individual. The only thing that IS absolute is that there is no proof of any of it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

CantePe said:


> The affair takes away from the spouse in the areas of emotional connect, physical connection, time from the relationship, etc.
> 
> .


I am talking about situation, where relationship is way past this. When there is no emotional connect, no sex, no time together. It is dead, but for some reason (usually kids or finances) people are stuck together. You are assuming that all the cheating is by horny people cheating on lovely spouses, just for fun of it. All I am saying that this is more complicated that that.

And no - it is not about justfiying it. It is about understanding why it happened, what leads to it, and maybe learning from it. I really believe that constructive, non-judgmental discussion on TAM about it would be very helpful to many people to avoid falling into that situation. But I also believe that this is one discussion that won't happen here, as anyone who is not politically correct, is shut down immediately. Look at all these cheater threads - you would think all the people who were cheated, were perfect lovely spouses - this is the only allowed conclusion here, while reality is often far from this. In some cases this is true, someone is simpley egoistic, serial cheater. In most - it is not.

That's all I have to say about it. Allow some discussion.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Your post is what I meant by "roasted". The word roasted is actually a metaphor for being accused of being wrong and inaccurate in my opinion based on a much wiser and more developed interpretation.
> 
> Where in my post do I state that I do not believe in predestination?
> 
> ...


So it is the stripes that make it a zebra? What about albinos? What about other animals that aren't zebras, but which also have stripes? You are a good poster, so I think you can find a better analogy, than this one. You are confusing Darwin with Machiavelli. Just kidding.!
I believe that what is necessary for a person to be "advanced" is a willingness to understand new or different ideas, explore new worlds and concepts, or as William Shatner says" To boldly go where no man has gone , before". I don't believe that absolute moral s are anything but subjective. We will have to agree to disagree.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I am talking about situation, where relationship is way past this. When there is no emotional connect, no sex, no time together. It is dead, but for some reason (usually kids or finances) people are stuck together. You are assuming that all the cheating is by horny people cheating on lovely spouses, just for fun of it. All I am saying that this is more complicated that that.
> 
> And no - it is not about justfiying it. It is about understanding *why it happened, what leads to it*, and maybe learning from it. I really believe that constructive, non-judgmental discussion on TAM about it would be very helpful to many people to avoid falling into that situation. But I also believe that this is one discussion that won't happen here, as anyone who is not politically correct, is shut down immediately. Look at all these cheater threads - you would think all the people who were cheated, were perfect lovely spouses - this is the only allowed conclusion here, while reality is often far from this. In some cases this is true, someone is simpley egoistic, serial cheater. In most - it is not.
> 
> That's all I have to say about it. Allow some discussion.


The fact of the matter is, it is simple. You really only have a few choices. When you write, "why it happened, what leads to it", I think you are asking what leads to cheating and why did the person cheat? It's very simple. Decision and choices led to cheating. I don't understand how anything else can be true. It doesn't happen all at once, in most cases. It takes time to develop. There are many chances to stop or turn back, to say no, or see an attorney, or file for a divorce with help at the courthouse. We'll call each of these "choices", or "decisions". Each of these little decisions or choices leads toward or away from an affair. 

Rape is forced and it's not cheating. Drugging someone or getting them drunk and having sex with them is rape. The only way it is cheating is if it's a choice. It's a decision made by a competent human being who is married. Anything other than choice is not legal. So, how can cheating be anything other than a choice? How can it not be a decision? The AP(rapist in this example) would have to be prosecuted. If the spouse was pursuing or forcing sex on the AP(unlikely), that spouse is the rapist and it's not an affair or cheating.

I don't think any BS in this thread has written they were not at fault in some way for at least some of the unhappiness in the marriage. I don't think anyone can honestly say they had no part in the atmosphere of the marriage. That's true simply because they were there. They may or may not have done something heinous. 

The only difference between a bad marriage with an affair and one without, is the affair. It's amazing how some folks can have a bad marriage and be unhappy enough to divorce without ever cheating, while others can't. Does that mean one spouse had no part in the unhappiness of the other spouse? No, it just means they chose not to cheat.

Why do I write that? Because, when there is more than one option, there is choice. A person can't cheat and be faithful all at the same time. 

The dynamics of the relationship had little to do with the decision to cheat, unless one spouse told the other, if they didn't have sex with someone else, they'd do something terrible to them. Again, that's not cheating. That's a crime. Therefore, the cheating spouse had lots to do with it. S/he decided to cheat for revenge, comfort, companionship, love, friendship, intimacy, money, social status, pride, didn't think their spouse cared, some other reason, and/or a combination. 

The answer is, they chose to cheat instead of choosing to be faithful. Easy peasy.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> What if you think they won't be really hurt?


Because some of us hold HONOR and PERSONAL INTEGRITY above a piece of azz. If it is a sexless marriage I would file for divorce due to wife's sexual immoral behavior in the marriage. Yes I believe with holding physical intamacy is a violation of marriage vows and God specifically says not to do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



Divinely Favored said:


> Because some of us hold HONOR and PERSONAL INTEGRITY above a piece of azz. If it is a sexless marriage I would file for divorce due to wife's sexual immoral behavior in the marriage. Yes I believe with holding physical intamacy is a violation of marriage vows and God specifically says not to do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honor and integrity. I consider myself a very honorable man and I try to approach life with the utmost in integrity. I was raised well and taught that a man's word was his bond and without honor a man had nothing. Yet, for a period of time I was a lying azzhole who'd steal, use and hurt those in my vicinity. Can honor be learned? Can it be unlearned? Can one have integrity, then lose it and regain it again?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

bfree said:


> Honor and integrity. I consider myself a very honorable man and I try to approach life with the utmost in integrity. I was raised well and taught that a man's word was his bond and without honor a man had nothing. Yet, for a period of time I was a lying azzhole who'd steal, use and hurt those in my vicinity. Can honor be learned? Can it be unlearned? Can one have integrity, then lose it and regain it again?


This would be a great question for the writers of MMSLP or NMMNG. What do you think their answer would be?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I was a stand up dude. I would never be able to cheat on anyone, right?

So... what was it that 'broke' me? My first girl friend dumping me for a millionaire property developer?

My second girl friend (first LTR) dumping me for a woman? 

My wife having a fling with a former boy friend?

Then I cheated. Yeah. Me. I broke.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> So it is the stripes that make it a zebra? What about albinos? What about other animals that aren't zebras, but which also have stripes? You are a good poster, so I think you can find a better analogy, than this one. You are confusing Darwin with Machiavelli. Just kidding.!
> I believe that what is necessary for a person to be "advanced" is a willingness to understand new or different ideas, explore new worlds and concepts, or as William Shatner says" To boldly go where no man has gone , before". I don't believe that absolute moral s are anything but subjective. We will have to agree to disagree.


I am perplexed as to your inability to accept my analogy in that I can't determine whether you sincerely do not see it or you are being purposely obtuse for reasons that are beyond my ability to comprehend. In any event, my analogy expressed exactly what I was trying to relate.

I had neither the time nor the inclination to list each of the genetically encoded characteristics that make a Zebra a Zebra so I used the most generally accepted and universally recognized feature to signify a Zebra, stripes. Surely you cannot believe that I consider stripes and stripes alone to be the only characteristic that separates a Zebra from the rest of the equines.

My analogy clearly said A Zebra and was not meant to cover the entire Equus subgenus of Zebras. Genetic anomalies were not considered for the purpose of this simple example, that was assumed to be acknowledged by the reader. As to the reference to other animals with stripes, I fail to see how that is relevant to Zebras unless you consider stripes to be exclusive to Zebras alone in the animal world. Again, it was assumed that the vast majority of people recognize that other animals also have stripes and because I specifically stated a Zebra, that my analogy would not apply to other animals. Perhaps you do not see this.

Also, your statement that a person be willing to understand new ideas I find intriguing. How can a person understand anything if they lack the ability? In order to be advanced, one must have the ability to understand for without the ability there can be no understanding.

Lastly, you also seem hesitant to accept absolutes even in light of the evidence supporting them. You may venture outside tonight and look into the sky and identify a star and have a deep desire and willingness to visit that star system. I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will not, no matter how willing your are to try. You haven't the ability and in your reality, that is an absolute. I could list many more but I deem it pointless.

In any event, I hope this can help clarify my analogy so as to allow you to understand my premise. Agreeing to disagree seems to be a prudent course of action here. I appreciate you point of view and wish you well.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I was a stand up dude. I would never be able to cheat on anyone, right?
> 
> So... what was it that 'broke' me? My first girl friend dumping me for a millionaire property developer?
> 
> ...


Matt,
I personally believe that, based on our individual makeup, each of us have limits of endurance, for lack of a better phrase. As that limit is approached, our resolve is sorely tested. Some people cannot endure and "break" as you put it and some do endure and do not falter, each to their own ability to process, rationalize and react to situations.

We are all different but the constant is that each of our actions have consequences and a significant part of any person's character is displayed by not only their "breaking" but also how they deal with those consequences. There are a couple of WS posters here that I can still respect even tough they cheated and that is because of how they handled the consequences once the deed was done. You are one of those of whom I speak. Do not misunderstand, I mean no condescension in that I feel that my respect is a prize you need to obtain, to the contrary, what is most important is the respect you have for yourself.

It's one thing to cheat and not own it but it's another thing to be deeply remorseful, constantly mindful and purposefully dedicated to not do it again and to strive diligently to repair the damage done, to the extent it can be repaired.

We are all human and most of us do the best we can to live, learn and grow throughout our time here. What does not kill me only serves to make me stronger. Perhaps you are stronger now than before. I wish the best for you sir.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



2ntnuf said:


> This would be a great question for the writers of MMSLP or NMMNG. What do you think their answer would be?


I don't know what their answer would be. I don't think I have an answer to that myself. Sometimes I tend to be too analytical, especially when it comes to self examination. I often wonder who the real bfree is.

Is he the one that naively thought there were only good and bad people in the world? Is he the one that thought he would always take care to stay on the side of the light? The one that thought too highly of his own strength and moral character?

Or is he the one that so easily abused drugs and alcohol? The one that would lie or steal to get what he wanted? The one who didn't care about anyone but himself and routinely hurt others? The one that hated himself and everyone else, especially those that tried to help him?

Or is he the one that found God? The one that came to realize that all of us have the capability to be bad and good? The one who realized that he is weak and needs to always be vigilant lest he return to his evil ways? The one that is truly afraid of nothing, except that which resides in his own mind and soul?

I don't have an answer as to who I really am. What I do know is that I have learned to never deal in absolutes when it comes to human emotions. 

I have also learned I have much to learn.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

bfree said:


> Honor and integrity. I consider myself a very honorable man and I try to approach life with the utmost in integrity. I was raised well and taught that a man's word was his bond and without honor a man had nothing. Yet, for a period of time I was a lying azzhole who'd steal, use and hurt those in my vicinity. Can honor be learned? Can it be unlearned? Can one have integrity, then lose it and regain it again?





bfree said:


> I don't know what their answer would be. I don't think I have an answer to that myself. Sometimes I tend to be too analytical, especially when it comes to self examination. I often wonder who the real bfree is.
> 
> Is he the one that naively thought there were only good and bad people in the world? Is he the one that thought he would always take care to stay on the side of the light? The one that thought too highly of his own strength and moral character?
> 
> ...


The answer to all of your questions is that you are all of those personas. Our psyche is a complex entanglement of abstract thoughts and ideas that can be extremely confusing and unsettling. At times we feel as though we are in control and strong and other times hardly at all, weak and vulnerable. It is all part of the growth we experience as we move through life.

Add to that the forces of outside influence from parents and others in our lives that mold us and the conflict we sometimes feel with those as we mature into our own individual entity. It's actually fascinating that any of us turn out as well as we do given the chaos we deal with throughout our lives. And I share your feeling that the more I learn the more I realize how little I know.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

bfree,

My answer to that is, if they didn't think it could be learned, they wouldn't have written and dedicated so much of their lives to those lofty ideals. No, I don't think they, and I know I don't, always live up to those lofty ideals. What I do know is, there are things which I have a higher propensity for doing than others. There are things which I hold as more important to me than others. This is true for each of us and is as individual as we are. I think we can improve ourselves to a certain extent. Is that enough? Depends on who you ask.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> I am perplexed as to your inability to accept my analogy in that I can't determine whether you sincerely do not see it or you are being purposely obtuse for reasons that are beyond my ability to comprehend. In any event, my analogy expressed exactly what I was trying to relate.
> 
> I had neither the time nor the inclination to list each of the genetically encoded characteristics that make a Zebra a Zebra so I used the most generally accepted and universally recognized feature to signify a Zebra, stripes. Surely you cannot believe that I consider stripes and stripes alone to be the only characteristic that separates a Zebra from the rest of the equines.
> 
> ...


The only difference that I can see is that you seem to believe that"honor" and "integrity" are somehow factual, instead of the subjective ideas that they are. A Zebra's stripes are a biological fact, and therefore have no connection to subjective opinion. so to use them to support your position is similar to using apples and oranges to support the idea of potato salad. Neither one supports the other... but be that as it may, I really don't want to argue about it, so ditto, your kind regards.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> So, no in Dad& Hubby's example, I did not use "everybody", not at all. Wrong, again.


You said not a single person can predict. That is everyone. 

So if you are hung up on semantics and using the actual word, ok.

But you did imply "everyone". Yes, you did.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> *** My sincere apologies to Vellocet for the thread jack.


No worries. Threads evolve. 

I won't report it and Lebron ya . I'm not that pissy.




> With that having been said, molestation and rape involve criminally (and physically) forcing someone to do something against their will.
> 
> Infidelity, as horrific as it is, is not even remotely comparable to molestation or rape. Not even close.


I agree. And I don't think anyone is trying to compare infidelity to them. Just that the principle is the same. 

I know I am not going to rape someone, I'm not going to molest a child, I know I will never murder anyone. I can predict this all too easily and mean it. Same with cheating. I CAN say I'll never do it. Like norajane said, I'm just not interested in cheating.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> I am talking about situation, where relationship is way past this. When there is no emotional connect, no sex, no time together. It is dead, but for some reason (usually kids or finances) people are stuck together. You are assuming that all the cheating is by horny people cheating on lovely spouses, just for fun of it. All I am saying that this is more complicated that that.



Then get a divorce. Nobody is stuck with anyone. There is no excuse. Kids aren't an excuse, money isn't an excuse, nothing.

Now if you both agree that you will stay married for finances and don't care if each of you goes out and F's other people, then that will be there choice.

Then it would not be cheating if both agree.

Other than that, yes, its cheating, and it hurts. I don't care about how "complicated" it is.



> It is about understanding why it happened, what leads to it, and maybe learning from it.


Oh, like "gee, what did I do to cause this behavior in my WS?" ??

Sorry, if things can be worked on, then bring it to the forefront.

But once the infidelity occurs, I don't give a rats ass about "why it happened". At that point its about the fact that it DID happen.




> I really believe that constructive, non-judgmental discussion on TAM about it would be very helpful to many people to avoid falling into that situation.


You mean, do as your spouse wants so they don't cheat? I shouldn't have to keep a spouse, or a SO from going out and F'ing other men. If they don't want to be with me, then don't.

Thank god I'll never have to worry about it ever again.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> You said not a single person can predict. That is everyone.
> 
> So if you are hung up on semantics and using the actual word, ok.
> 
> But you did imply "everyone". Yes, you did.


It's funny that the only people who worry about semantics are those who cannot debate. If you just wanted to rant, Vellocet, you should have said so. And I would have gone elsewhere. If you want to debate my arguments, either do so, or admit that you can't. But don't criticize my methods, if you can't refute them.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

There is nothing to refute. You were called out about using the word "everyone". You wanted to argue that you didn't use that word. And you are right. You didn't use that word.

You did, however, imply "everyone". End of discussion. If you would like to go elsewhere, please, be our guest.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> And I don't think anyone is trying to compare infidelity to them. Just that the principle is the same.


No ill will, but I disagree with that one. The principle is not the same IMO.

Then I know I'm starting to sound like Don Quixote on this one, so I guess I'll just shut up.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

We should all be very thankful that we, each in our own way, have not been faced with the right set of circumstances or been in the exactly right conditions lest every last one of us would be cheaters. Whew........How lucky are we?!? If not for my good fortune I would be a cheater. I think I'll buy a lottery ticket.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Quod Erat Demonstrandum


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

italianjob said:


> No ill will, but I disagree with that one. The principle is not the same IMO.
> 
> Then I know I'm starting to sound like Don Quixote on this one, so I guess I'll just shut up.


Sure the principle is the same, with regards to me knowing myself and what I will and won't do. 

I know I won't commit murder
I know I will not rape anyone
I know I will not molest a child
I know I will not cheat


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Sure the principle is the same, with regards to me knowing myself and what I will and won't do.
> 
> I know I won't commit murder
> I know I will not rape anyone
> ...


The motivations are different, thus the principle is not the same. In the first three instances you probably feel repulsion for the act in itself. The fourth is different because the fact it is cheating is not the act itself but the moral implication of the act.
So in the first three instances you'll have both an instinctual and rational repulsion, while in the fourth your repulsion is purely rational IMO.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

italianjob said:


> The motivations are different, thus the principle is not the same. In the first three instances you probably feel repulsion for the act in itself. The fourth is different because the fact it is cheating is not the act itself but the moral implication of the act.
> So in the first three instances you'll have both an instinctual and rational repulsion, while in the fourth your repulsion is purely rational IMO.


What you are missing is that he does feel repulsion in regards to the act of cheating. It isn't purely rational.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

italianjob said:


> The motivations are different, thus the principle is not the same. In the first three instances you probably feel repulsion for the act in itself. The fourth is different because the fact it is cheating is not the act itself but the moral implication of the act.


I feel repulsion for all 4 of those.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> What you are missing is that he does feel repulsion in regards to the act of cheating. It isn't purely rational.


I don't think I'm missing anything, and I'm not insinuating that anyone will/could do anything, I don't want to engage in another pointless discussion...
but:
in the case of "cheating" the basic action is not "cheating" but "having consensual sex" which is an action that very few human beings would find repulsing. The fact that it is cheating is brought by the rational and moral environment, you're doing it with someone different that the one you're married to, so the nature of your repulsion is not given by the action itself but by the circumstances surrounding it. So IMO your repulsion has a rational nature.

ETA:
I would really like that an hideous crime like child molesting was left out from this kind of discussion.
However horrible infidelity might be this kind of comparision is just disturbing IMO


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

italianjob said:


> The motivations are different, thus the principle is not the same. In the first three instances you probably feel repulsion for the act in itself. The fourth is different because the fact it is cheating is not the act itself but the moral implication of the act.
> So in the first three instances you'll have both an instinctual and rational repulsion, while in the fourth your repulsion is purely rational IMO.


The motivations are all selfish and evil and all cause a lot of harm.

You are only revealing your own motivations. Many have the same revulsion to any sexual misconduct.

You obviously do not have a revulsion to cheating. Many others do however.

For you to claim I possess the same limits on behavior or the same reactions and revulsions is naïve in the extreme.

I could kill, easily, given the right circumstances without an ounce of revulsion. Many cannot.

I believe people when they say what revolts them. Obviously, some people are not as self aware as others. Many cheaters would claim to hate cheating and be revolted by it before they became cheaters but there are a lot of more self aware people who really do know their limits.

I believe you about yours but it seems you are incapable of understanding that not everyone perceives the world the same way as you.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

bfree said:


> Can one have integrity, then lose it and regain it again?


No. Not in my opinion. Integrity is like your virginity - you can only lose it once.

You can prove to be untrustworthy but over time become trustworthy. Same with honesty. But integrity? Nope. Once you give it away, it's gone for ever.

Which is why I can understand why some people can say point blank that they will never cheat under any circumstances.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> The motivations are all selfish and evil and all cause a lot of harm.
> 
> You are only revealing your own motivations. Many have the same revulsion to any sexual misconduct.
> 
> ...


I actually hate cheating and am ashamed of having been guilty of it, I was just talking about psychological mechanism being different, because I find certain kinds of comparisions out of place.

I probably can't make my opinion clear, and at this point it's probably my fault.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> People feel repulsion for a 50 year old man having 'consensual sex' with a 10 year old girl.
> 
> Just because the act of having consensual sex may feel good, doesn't mean one can't be repulsed by it.


A 10 year old can't give consent, so that's not possible. The basic action there is molesting, and that's a perversion and an hideous crime.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> There is nothing to refute. You were called out about using the word "everyone". You wanted to argue that you didn't use that word. And you are right. You didn't use that word.
> 
> You did, however, imply "everyone". End of discussion. If you would like to go elsewhere, please, be our guest.


Thank you for admitting you were wrong, and yes, I will go elsewhere. See Ya!


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

You are all overlooking the enormous roll good fortune plays in this, I'm just saying.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Thank you for admitting you were wrong


Nope




> and yes, I will go elsewhere. See Ya!


Works for me.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I agree.
> 
> Why do I feel like this thread was started as a justification for some inappropriate actions?


Me? Someone who started this thread and has never cheated on anyone before? I'm justifying inappropriate actions? Do tell.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

italianjob said:


> I actually hate cheating and am ashamed of having been guilty of it, I was just talking about psychological mechanism being different, because I find certain kinds of comparisions out of place.
> 
> I probably can't make my opinion clear, and at this point it's probably my fault.


No, it's just that your values are different than some of the other poster's values - nothing wrong with that. You see your so called psychological mechanisms throug a lense based on your values. Some people think cheating is in the worst league, some people don't. That doesn't make you better or worse than them, just different - and vice versa.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

> Anyone can have an affair


I CAN piss on an electric fence. Am I ever gonna? No, and I CAN predict that I won't.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

italianjob said:


> vellocet said:
> 
> 
> > Sure the principle is the same, with regards to me knowing myself and what I will and won't do.
> ...


Okay, I am having trouble separating 2 and 3 from 4. 1 I get because murder is killing another of which there are numerous ways/conditions. There is war, self defense and several others that I do not find "repulsive". However, premeditated, cold blooded murder I do find very repulsive.

2,3 and 4 are all sexual acts of which I find all three repulsive and beyond reprehensible. Rape is still the act of sex only without consent and cheating is also the act of sex without consent of the SO. I fail to see how 2, 3 and 4 can be looked at as anything else.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> Okay, I am having trouble separating 2 and 3 from 4. 1 I get because murder is killing another of which there are numerous ways/conditions. There is war, self defense and several others that I do not find "repulsive". However, premeditated, cold blooded murder I do find very repulsive.
> 
> 2,3 and 4 are all sexual acts of which I find all three repulsive and beyond reprehensible. Rape is still the act of sex only without consent and cheating is also the act of sex without consent of the SO. I fail to see how 2, 3 and 4 can be looked at as anything else.


Really? 
You really see no difference between having sex with children or imposing sex on an un willing partner and having consensual sex with a willing partner? I guess you have a Problem... 

The first two acts would be palatable only to a pervert, the third is reprehensible because of the vows you took and not for reasons inherent to the action.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Predictably, this whole idea that "anyone can have an affair" spiraled down into ridiculous hyper-examination of semantics, bogus science, and theater.

Honest and honorable people don't have affairs. Dishonest, selfish people do.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> People feel repulsion for a 50 year old man having 'consensual sex' with a 10 year old girl.
> 
> Just because the act of having consensual sex may feel good, doesn't mean one can't be repulsed by it.


Thank you for the threadjack. Unless you truly believe paedophilia and an affair are equally bad?:scratchhead:


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



Forest said:


> Predictably, this whole idea that "anyone can have an affair" spiraled down into ridiculous hyper-examination of semantics, bogus science, and theater.
> 
> Honest and honorable people don't have affairs. Dishonest, selfish people do.


Which will then spiral down into those who have cheated cannot redeem themselves, no matter what they say or do. 

I still maintain that even one who says they could never cheat actually could. You can argue all you want about it, but the fact is we are all capable. I was once on "that side". You know, the "I would never cheat on my husband" side. I even maintained "flirting = cheating". And then, I was on this side. I have never physically cheated on my husband. And I hope I am never in the situation where THAT resolve is tested. Why? Because I am honest enough with myself that, no matter how good things may be with my husband, I could mess that up. Do I seek that sort of attention? Absolutely not. Am I vulnerable in that area? I don't believe so... at least not now. 

So, rake me over the coals, if you wish. But when someone says "I would never... because it is against my very core", I don't believe them. I laugh. It was against who I was as well. And it still happened. (Yea, I know, now I am going to get berated for saying it happened.  ) I hope none of you does ever cheat. I really do. I just do not believe the "I would never" argument.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Also, comparing child molestation to cheating on one's spouse is disgusting. One is NOTHING like the other. I can understand comparing cheating to murder... you are killing the marriage. I can understand comparing cheating to rape... a stretch, but I can understand the comparison... violating the marriage. However, when you start comparing it to forcing sexual contact on a CHILD, that crosses the line. Cheating is bad, I completely agree. But it does NOT come close to violating a child! Throwing that into the mix is in very poor form (mild understatement, and I held back on what I really think)!


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

I would be interested in seeing (statistically) the number of people who have cheated, but before they did, also uttered the words, and honestly meant... 

*I would never cheat.*


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Maricha75 said:


> Which will then spiral down into those who have cheated cannot redeem themselves, no matter what they say or do.
> 
> I still maintain that even one who says they could never cheat actually could. You can argue all you want about it, but the fact is we are all capable. I was once on "that side". You know, the "I would never cheat on my husband" side. I even maintained "flirting = cheating". And then, I was on this side. I have never physically cheated on my husband. And I hope I am never in the situation where THAT resolve is tested. Why? Because I am honest enough with myself that, no matter how good things may be with my husband, I could mess that up. Do I seek that sort of attention? Absolutely not. Am I vulnerable in that area? I don't believe so... at least not now.
> 
> So, rake me over the coals, if you wish. But when someone says "I would never... because it is against my very core", I don't believe them. I laugh. It was against who I was as well. And it still happened. (Yea, I know, now I am going to get berated for saying it happened.  ) I hope none of you does ever cheat. I really do. I just do not believe the "I would never" argument.



Well, "it just happened" does seem to be a very common and pathetic crutch, which I don't accept.

People can redeem themselves. In rare cases maybe even they "change their stripes". Ultimately, its up to their partners to determine whether they are worth the risk and humiliation.

(please Lord, don't let some juvenile imbecile come around talking about faux science again)


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Thank you for the threadjack. Unless you truly believe paedophilia and an affair are equally bad?:scratchhead:


No threadjack. I think they are both very bad. Maybe not equally bad, but both wrong.

I realize my analogy regarding having sex with a minor and cheating wasn't very smart. 

Just trying to make italianjob realize that some people have such strong morals that cheating is an impossiblility for them. Just like some of the repulsive things that he has mentioned (murder, sex with a child, etc.) are an impossibility for most everyone.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> Which will then spiral down into those who have cheated cannot redeem themselves, no matter what they say or do.
> 
> I still maintain that even one who says they could never cheat actually could. You can argue all you want about it, but the fact is we are all capable. I was once on "that side". You know, the "I would never cheat on my husband" side. I even maintained "flirting = cheating". And then, I was on this side. I have never physically cheated on my husband. And I hope I am never in the situation where THAT resolve is tested. Why? Because I am honest enough with myself that, no matter how good things may be with my husband, I could mess that up. Do I seek that sort of attention? Absolutely not. Am I vulnerable in that area? I don't believe so... at least not now.
> 
> So, rake me over the coals, if you wish. But when someone says "I would never... because it is against my very core", I don't believe them. I laugh. It was against who I was as well. And it still happened. (Yea, I know, now I am going to get berated for saying it happened.  ) I hope none of you does ever cheat. I really do. I just do not believe the "I would never" argument.


Just because you never thought you would cheat and you did, doesn't mean that everyone that says they would never cheat would as well.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

3putt said:


> I would be interested in seeing (statistically) the number of people who have cheated, but before they did, also uttered the words, and honestly meant...
> 
> *I would never cheat.*


I am sure the majority of cheaters thought that they would never cheat. At least I hope most of them thought they could be faithful.

Doesn't change the fact that many people say they will never cheat and they never will.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



Forest said:


> Well, "it just happened" does seem to be a very common and pathetic crutch, which I don't accept.


And, if you notice, I didn't say "it just happened". Rather, I stated the fact that it did happen... and we (my husband and I) have since moved on from it.



Forest said:


> People can redeem themselves. In rare cases maybe even they "change their stripes". Ultimately, its up to their partners to determine whether they are worth the risk and humiliation.


Totally agree. Really, the partner is the only one whose opinion matters. All others are superfluous. 



Forest said:


> (please Lord, don't let some juvenile imbecile come around talking about faux science again)


Once again, I agree with you lol. Honestly, if there are stats, fine. But just otherwise...


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> Which will then spiral down into those who have cheated cannot redeem themselves, no matter what they say or do.


Just as I believe there are people that will never cheat, there are also people who have cheated that never will again.

In fact, I think that people that have cheated, that have realized how much they have hurt their spouses, children, family, friends, etc. That are truly remorseful. Might have a better chance of not cheating again.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



SadSamIAm said:


> Just because you never thought you would cheat and you did, doesn't mean that everyone that says they would never cheat would as well.


I used that same argument when I was a kid: "Just because he/she/they...."
So, in the same spirit... just because they SAY they won't NOW, doesn't mean they won't ever. So, still don't believe them.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> I used that same argument when I was a kid: "Just because he/she/they...."
> So, in the same spirit... just because they SAY they won't NOW, doesn't mean they won't ever. So, still don't believe them.


Probably good advice for someone to not believe them (because many people do cheat even thought they think they wouldn't).

But to the person who will never cheat, they shouldn't care if they believe them or not.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am sure the majority of cheaters thought that they would never cheat. At least I hope most of them thought they could be faithful.
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that many people say they will never cheat and they never will.


Yep, but most of what we have here are BSs (me included), and FWSs that are fully aware of the trauma and destruction that is associated with that behavior. Folks who are completely naive to this may truly believe what they think they will or won't do, but are completely unaware, and ignorant of, boundaries and precautions that should be employed to ensure that it never happens.

IMHO, awareness that it can indeed happen to anyone is the key to all this so as to never put yourself into a position that it could happen.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

italianjob said:


> Really?
> You really see no difference between having sex with children or imposing sex on an un willing partner and having consensual sex with a willing partner? I guess you have a Problem...
> 
> The first two acts would be palatable only to a pervert, the third is reprehensible because of the vows you took and not for reasons inherent to the action.


So you can disregard forcing sex on your significant other when they had no desire to have it forced into their lives. If that defines a problem then I certainly do have one. And how about we substitute deviant for pervert and now all three fit the mold.

ETA: I purposely left out 3 because a poster here said it made them uncomfortable.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

3putt said:


> Yep, but most of what we have here are BSs (me included), and FWWs that are fully aware of the trauma and destruction that is associated with that behavior. Folks who are completely naive to this may truly believe what they think they will or won't do, but are completely unaware, and ignorant of, boundaries and precautions that should be employed to ensure that it never happens.
> 
> IMHO, awareness that it can indeed happen to anyone is the key to all this so as to never put yourself into a position that it could happen.


:iagree:

Just know that it is possible. If your spouse tells you that they will never cheat on you, then say Great! Don't debate with them that 'anyone could have an affair'. 

Still have boundaries. Still be a good spouse. Still watch for inappropriate behaviour (red flags). 

I don't know for a fact that my mother and father never cheated on each other. But I like to think that when my mother was with my father when he passed away, that they both knew that they were faithful their entire marriage. I hope I get there someday as well.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> No threadjack. I think they are both very bad. Maybe not equally bad, but both wrong.
> 
> I realize my analogy regarding having sex with a minor and cheating wasn't very smart.
> 
> Just trying to make italianjob realize that some people have such strong morals that cheating is an impossiblility for them. Just like some of the repulsive things that he has mentioned (murder, sex with a child, etc.) are an impossibility for most everyone.


I never actually contested anyone's convinctions on their on moral strength. I contested The use of child molestation as an example. IMO it's not the same principle in any way, and it should be kept out of this kind of discussions, while, unfortunately and, IMO, in bad taste, it's been referenced several times throughout this thread. That's all.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> So you can disregard forcing sex on your significant other when they had no desire to have it forced into their lives. If that defines a problem then I certainly do have one. And how about we substitute deviant for pervert and now all three fit the mold.
> 
> ETA: I purposely left out 3 because a poster here said it made them uncomfortable.


I didn't disregard anything. I never said one of the three was ok, just that the reason why one of the 3 is reprehensible works differently, so they are not comparable, but that doesn't make cheating ok.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> I used that same argument when I was a kid: "Just because he/she/they...."
> So, in the same spirit... just because they SAY they won't NOW, doesn't mean they won't ever. So, still don't believe them.


I am truly thankful that your belief in me is not what keeps me from cheating. A deep and inescapable empathy does. My needs and wants are simply not important enough to me to cause such pain in another to achieve them. I am not that valuable to myself but perhaps to someone else......


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

italianjob said:


> I never actually contested anyone's convinctions on their on moral strength. I contested The use of child molestation as an example. IMO it's not the same principle in any way, and it should be kept out of this kind of discussions, while, unfortunately and, IMO, in bad taste, it's been referenced several times throughout this thread. That's all.


I didn't see a problem when the OP posted, 

"I know I won't commit murder
I know I will not rape anyone
I know I will not molest a child
I know I will not cheat "

He was trying to say that he believes these all to be very bad things and things that he will never do. He didn't say they were all the same thing or that they were related in any way other than he would never do any of these things.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> I didn't see a problem when the OP posted,
> 
> "I know I won't commit murder
> I know I will not rape anyone
> ...


If you read with attention, in that post or maybe his previous one, he states clearly: the principle is the same. I think he was referencing a previous discussion several Pages back in this same thread. That' the affirmation I was contesting.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

italianjob said:


> If you read with attention, in that post or maybe his previous one, he states clearly: the principle is the same. I think he was referencing a previous discussion several Pages back in this same thread. That' the affirmation I was contesting.


I looked back.

Someone said "Infidelity, as horrific as it is, is not even remotely comparable to molestation or rape. Not even close."

The OP then said, 

"I agree. And I don't think anyone is trying to compare infidelity to them. Just that the principle is the same.

I know I am not going to rape someone, I'm not going to molest a child, I know I will never murder anyone. I can predict this all too easily and mean it. Same with cheating. I CAN say I'll never do it. Like norajane said, I'm just not interested in cheating."

The OP agreed that cheating was not even remotely comparable to molestation or rape. His point is that he wouldn't do any of those things including cheating.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> I looked back.
> 
> Someone said "Infidelity, as horrific as it is, is not even remotely comparable to molestation or rape. Not even close."
> 
> ...


These 'analogies' are really skewing and screwing the intent of this thread.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> I looked back.
> 
> Someone said "Infidelity, as horrific as it is, is not even remotely comparable to molestation or rape. Not even close."
> 
> ...


And I didn't agree that "the principle is the same" and tried, not very successfully I fear, to explain why. I won't contest the OP affirmation that he wouldn't do any of those things, but I just don't see those things as fruits from the same tree and find it disturbing that one of them in particular, would be used to make a point in this discussion.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



azteca1986 said:


> No. Not in my opinion. Integrity is like your virginity - you can only lose it once.
> 
> You can prove to be untrustworthy but over time become trustworthy. Same with honesty. But integrity? Nope. Once you give it away, it's gone for ever.
> 
> Which is why I can understand why some people can say point blank that they will never cheat under any circumstances.


So for the past two decades or more I have tried to live an honorable and honest life. I have tried to demonstrate integrity in every step I take. But since I abused alcohol and drugs and was generally a bad person during that period of my life I will never really have integrity again? Well...that's rather...disappointing.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

bfree said:


> So for the past two decades or more I have tried to live an honorable and honest life. I have tried to demonstrate integrity in every step I take. But since I abused alcohol and drugs and was generally a bad person during that period of my life I will never really have integrity again? Well...that's rather...disappointing.


Alcohol and drugs can do bad things to a person. They can turn your integrity off.

However, some people, like bfree, can do a re-set and get their integrity back.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There's a lot of fear in this thread.

There's a lot of barking and snarling. Some of it quite unpleasant, too.

Anyone who knows about dogs knows that sometimes the dog that barks and snarls the most does so because they are afraid.

Afraid that perhaps they might show some human weakness? That they might cheat at some point?:scratchhead:

There's a story that an evangelical by the name of John Bradford (1510-1555) said this when he saw a group of prisoners been taken to their execution:_ "There but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford." _


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Alcohol and drugs can do bad things to a person. They can turn your integrity off.
> 
> However, some people, like bfree, can do a re-set and get their integrity back.


Not too much unlike getting caught in the claws of infidelity....huh?

Oh, that's right.....there's no comparison.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> But when someone says "I would never... because it is against my very core", I don't believe them. I laugh.


I shouldn't be surprised to see that a lack of integrity is a laughing matter for some.

Still, you can't judge everyone by your standards.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

3putt said:


> Not too much unlike getting caught in the claws of infidelity....huh?
> 
> Oh, that's right.....there's no comparison.


Unless, of course, alcoholism brings about a situation where infidelity takes place?

Would I have cheated had I not spent a couple of years, self medicating with booze? I don't think I would have.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

bfree said:


> So for the past two decades or more I have tried to live an honorable and honest life. I have tried to demonstrate integrity in every step I take. But since I abused alcohol and drugs and was generally a bad person during that period of my life I will never really have integrity again? Well...that's rather...disappointing.


I thought we were talking about infidelity?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> I shouldn't be surprised to see that a lack of integrity is a laughing matter for some.
> 
> Still, you can't judge everyone by your standards.


I might laugh at people who make big, bold statement. Or probably not _laugh_, but smile to myself and think: "Oh? We'll see."


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



azteca1986 said:


> I shouldn't be surprised to see that a lack of integrity is a laughing matter for some.
> 
> *Still, you can't judge everyone by your standards.*


Are you serious? Have you not read these boards? EVERYONE judges others by their own stsndards. EVERYONE.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I might laugh at people who make big, bold statement. Or probably not _laugh_, but smile to myself and think: "Oh? We'll see."


So, if I understand all you formerWSs correctly, none of you can say now that you won't cheat again?

The best you can say to your BS's is "We'll see"?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Are you serious? Have you not read these boards? EVERYONE judges others by their own stsndards. EVERYONE.


I judge everyone by my standards. 

Fortunately MY standards are very low... oh, s**t! Now I see what my problem is! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> So, if I understand all you formerWSs correctly, none of you can say now that you won't cheat again?
> 
> The best you can say to you BS's is "We'll see"?


I do not intend to cheat again. Hopefully by the grace of God and all that kind of thing, I won't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



azteca1986 said:


> I thought we were talking about infidelity?


In a way we are but infidelity is just one way that a person can do evil things. In general what we are really discussing is the potential irredeemability of people. If someone who has never committed infidelity before can say they will never cheat...and believe it, then can someone who has committed infidelity before make the same statement?


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



azteca1986 said:


> I thought we were talking about infidelity?


Does it make a difference? Someone makes a lot of bad decisions at a certain point in his life. That can be used as an excellent analogy, IMO. Can someone redeem him/herself after such acts? I believe some here have proven, to their spouses anyway, that it is possible. And I think that's the point bfree was making.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I do not intend to cheat again. Hopefully by the grace of God and all that kind of thing, I won't.


If I were to smile and say "Oh? we'll see"? you might find that a bit rude and slightly offensive. So, imagine what that response sounds like to someone with an unblemished track record.



bfree said:


> If someone who has never committed infidelity before can say they will never cheat...and believe it, then can someone who has committed infidelity before make the same statement?


Of course they can. I accept and knowledge that people can make bad choices and then, going forward, choose never to make those same bad choices again. I feel, people who have never cheated should also be extended that same courtesy.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

3putt said:


> I would be interested in seeing (statistically) the number of people who have cheated, but before they did, also uttered the words, and honestly meant...
> 
> *I would never cheat.*


Some people have more conviction than others.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

italianjob said:


> If you read with attention, in that post or maybe his previous one, he states clearly: the principle is the same.


Yes, the principle of my convictions on those situations.

Not that the situations are anywhere close to being the same thing nor can they be compared to each other.

Principle in that I think they are all things I would never do.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Some people have more conviction than others.


I agree only I would use the word empathy. I believe there are various stages of empathy and therefore varying degrees of "conviction". I see some people as being very empathetic and in those people there is a highly developed sense of how something will be perceived and felt by another. These people are no more capable of hurting another than they are of hurting themselves and could never selfishly impose that level of pain on someone else. Then there are those with less empathy who do not realize the full effect of their actions on another until they see the pain and devastation that it causes. These, IMO, are the truly remorseful WSs. Then you have those who are incapable of empathy and never can grasp the damage they cause. This would be your group of serial cheaters, forever destined to cause pain and anguish. Of course, it is much more complicated that this simple analogy but this is the basis of what causes infidelity, as I see it.

I believe that one's level of empathy can change throughout a person's life and that this can explain why some individuals can do "bad" things at times and then change to be a good person. As we go through life and gain more experience and understanding of the harmful effects of our actions on others then we are more easily able to "put ourselves in their shoes" and project the pain we would cause. It is a maturing process and sadly, some never do mature.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Some people have more conviction than others.


Which is proven by successfully resisting very strong seductions in real life and not simply by issuing words on a forum.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> If I were to smile and say "Oh? we'll see"? you might find that a bit rude and slightly offensive. So, imagine what that response sounds like to someone with an unblemished track record.
> 
> Of course they can. I accept and knowledge that people can make bad choices and then, going forward, choose never to make those same bad choices again. I feel, people who have never cheated should also be extended that same courtesy.


I wouldn't find that particularly rude or offensive.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> No threadjack. I think they are both very bad. Maybe not equally bad, but both wrong.
> 
> I realize my analogy regarding having sex with a minor and cheating wasn't very smart.
> 
> Just trying to make italianjob realize that some people have such strong morals that cheating is an impossiblility for them. Just like some of the repulsive things that he has mentioned (murder, sex with a child, etc.) are an impossibility for most everyone.


They were talking about sex between cconsentinh adult you could use incest as an example instead of pedaphelia. Just like murder and rape...the thoight of sex with my sister or mother is repulsive.....has nothing to do with moral restraints.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Some people have more conviction than others.


AMEN!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I wanted to respond to this notion in another thread, but figured someone would get their nose in a snit and report it for threadjacking.
> 
> So starting a new one.
> 
> ...


Not reading the 10+ pages.. I'm assuming it got derailed at some point or another.. So I am just responding to the original post..

I started typing a whole tirade about excuses and reasons. But I deleted it. The simple reason is the 2nd sentence and beyond below.

Just wanted to say that I agree. 

But this forum clearly can show otherwise as we have several waywards here that have reconciled with their spouses. Seeing that they are somebody that would include them in the *anyone can have an affair quote*.. 

My ex wife is part of that anyone. But honestly for me I don't know why I'm so surprised. My Ex had or was looking to have several affairs before actually having the one she did. 

I wish I could say exactly what went wrong for her to have an affair. Maybe there was a disconnect I just didn't see. I thought I was nice and loving. We surely laughed more than we cried or even fought.. Our fights, I can't really tell you. They were nonsense type of things. They surely weren't marriage ending, at least to me. 

I can say I have had several chances to have an affair and never took it. Some were 100's and 1000's of miles away from home. No one would have ever known.. 

I know people want to say its a moral thing and such, and I get it. Most of me respects the waywards here, but there is a very small part of me that looks down on them. 

But I know in the end deep down they have to live with that scarlet letter for many years to come with their spouses if they reconcile and that is what makes me commend them. Even deep down they know there will be times when their own spouses out of sadness or weakness look down upon them. Even if its behind their backs. 

Look I get it as a Betrayed Spouse we have to deal with our own issues as well. But a reconciling wayward is pretty much signing up to take a beating and for some WW depending on the BS it can be a very long time if not the rest of their marriage. 

Personally I knew and had the common sense to understand that I couldn't beat up my wife ( ex wife now ) forever about her EA or attempted affairs.. I realized there came a point where I would have to* eat it* for the sake of our marriage and family. Sadly I don't think my ex wife realized that or the trauma she caused me. 

Look maybe anyone can have an affair, but that is surely not the thought or concept I am going to go with into a relationship with. I am not going into a marriage with one foot out the door already. 

Anyone can kill someone, does it mean we live our lives waiting for us to be killed or when we kill someone, we say it was inevitable ?

Everybody wants the answer to that magic questions *WHY* ? Why did this happen to me ?

Why is it that certain couples can live in poverty and in squaller and just be loyal and faithful to each other and then have someone who just can't and they have everything.. 

There are days I go through all of this, because in reality this is what this thread is about, at least to me. Its just another version of the why question. 

I say this repeatedly.. I am amazed how much this has affected me.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

chaos said:


> Which is proven by successfully resisting very strong seductions in real life and not simply by issuing words on a forum.


Exactly. If I was ever going to cheat I would have done so by now. I had opportunities to get away with it in terms of my x wife never knowing about it. I still said no.

Because I would know about it and it wasn't the right thing to do. 

I made a promise
I made a vow
I have character 

so cheating is not something I would be able to live with.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

This mentality of "getting away with it" has always puzzled me and troubled me deeply. Whenever a person commits an act there is always at least one witness to it, them. No one can get away with committing an act without them knowing about it. What does this say about the character of the witness?? If we all could grasp this concept life could be much different.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

chaos said:


> Which is proven by successfully resisting very strong seductions in real life and not simply by issuing words on a forum.


Count me on that list then.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I wouldn't find that particularly rude or offensive.


Okay.

It's probably because you no longer know what it means to have your integrity and character questioned (on the subject of infidelity) when you've done nothing to warrant it.

I hope this clears up our different perspective to the same statement. In all the clamour of "It could happen you!" and "I thought the same, before I cheated...", I'll concede that it is easy for some to have an affair. But it's just as easy for me not to.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I don't think its rude or offensive, or at the very least not meant to be that way. 

Slightly irritating, sure.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



azteca1986 said:


> It's probably because you no longer know what it means to have your integrity and character questioned (on the subject of infidelity) when you've done nothing to warrant it.


Not for me. I had people say things like that to me before, when I was absolutely certain I would not do whatever it was they believed I would do. Was it irritating, as Vellocet pointed out, but not rude nor offensive. I shrugged it off with a "Yep, we'll see." And went on my way. This was long before any infidelity.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Since we've expanded things a bit here, I have semi-related question, which requires a little consideration:

Using the rationale "anyone can have an affair", could you say "anyone can knowingly transmit an STD", and expect the same type of open minded consideration?

Some will say the the STD variation is unfairly put forth, as it is so much worse. In a medical sense, that is true. Both, however, connote a self-centered mindset, and disregard for the well being of another, though.

I don't believe anyone would grant much sympathy toward the culprit in the STD case; though they might in the affair scenario. 

All I ask is that nobody mentions apples or oranges. I already laid out a commonality.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

This thread sort of reminds me of the old joke:
Man dies and goes to heaven, the angel Gabriel greets him and and wants to show him around. 
First , Gabriel says, "this is the Catholic area, and everybody is happy and singing and having a good time." Next they go to the Hindu area...then the Methodist area, then the Muslim area, until they have visited every religion. And everybody is happy. Then they come to an area that has all of the doors locked and all of the windows closed. Gabriel says to the man, "Shsssh, keep your voice down. this is the Baptist area, and they don't believe that anybody else is here".


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

There are a lot of comments that "i will never commit murder". I think even that is something we cannot absolutely state as a fact. 

Think of extreme circumstances like the movie seven or the saw movies. Granted they are extremes but the point of them is to show how human brain can be manipulated. The are lots of experiments that show how easily people can be made to do bad things i forget the names but electric shock studies and the famous prison officers / prisoners come to mind.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jin said:


> There are a lot of comments that "i will never commit murder". I think even that is something we cannot absolutely state as a fact.
> 
> Think of extreme circumstances like the movie seven or the saw movies. Granted they are extremes but the point of them is to show how human brain can be manipulated. The are lots of experiments that show how easily people can be made to do bad things i forget the names but electric shock studies and the famous prison officers / prisoners come to mind.


Then it wouldn't be murder. There is a key word in the definition of murder.....premeditated/premeditation

To my knowledge I don't know of cheating that isn't premeditated. Of course some will argue that it was spur of the moment and it "just happened" 

So it gets down to doing an act because they wanted to do it. And anyone that says they cheated and didn't want to do it, ya, sure :slap:


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

I was just trying to make a point that you never know kind of circumstances you might face in the future and what actions you could be driven to take. 

We can state with conviction what we will and won't do but life can throw us curve balls and you can never know how you might react in certain situations. 

Making an argument around the meaning of a word and semantics is getting away from the point. 

But the premeditation issue is interesting. If its not premeditated then it's still technically murder but if an accident could be manslaughter. Say you got drunk and killed someone in your car. It's not murder but manslaughter. Say a spouse got drunk and had sex with a stranger. I doubt many TAM ers would think that is something less than cheating.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: Anyone can have an affair*



jin said:


> I was just trying to make a point that you never know kind of circumstances you might face in the future and what actions you could be driven to take.
> 
> We can state with conviction what we will and won't do but life can throw us curve balls and you can never know how you might react in certain situations.
> 
> ...


You're right. It's in many threads... alcohol is not a good enough excuse. So, really, if it isn't good enough for someone who has cheated, it shouldn't be good enough to get a murder sentence reduced to manslaughter.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

jin said:


> There are a lot of comments that "i will never commit murder". I think even that is something we cannot absolutely state as a fact.
> 
> Think of extreme circumstances like the movie seven or the saw movies. Granted they are extremes but the point of them is to show how human brain can be manipulated. The are lots of experiments that show how easily people can be made to do bad things i forget the names but electric shock studies and the famous prison officers / prisoners come to mind.


Murder in the Biblical since is TALING of INNOCENT LIFE. Taking the life of someone who is non-innocent is not murder...it is homicide. it's different. Biblically one is a Commandment, the other is not. Abortion is a murder, shooting a rapist is not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jin said:


> I was just trying to make a point that you never know kind of circumstances you might face in the future and what actions you could be driven to take.


Yes, I do know.

I will never commit murder.

Can I say I'll never kill someone in self defense? no, but that's not murder.

Can I say I would never have a car accident on icey conditions and kill someone? no, but that's not murder.

Can I say I wouldn't shoot and kill an intruder into my home? no, but that's not murder.




> Making an argument around the meaning of a word and semantics is getting away from the point.


No, it isn't, because when I said I wouldn't commit "murder" that's what I meant. 

Nobody can say they wouldn't accidentally kill someone, or in self defense. But if someone says they will never commit premeditated "murder", I believe them. I believe myself.




> But the premeditation issue is interesting. If its not premeditated then it's still technically murder but if an accident could be manslaughter.


Technically and by lawful definition...it isn't murder if premeditated.




> Say you got drunk and killed someone in your car. It's not murder but manslaughter.


Exactly.




> Say a spouse got drunk and had sex with a stranger. I doubt many TAM ers would think that is something less than cheating.


Apples/Oranges. Impairment where your coordination to drive a car is different from cheating. Not being able to control a vehicle is not the same thing as purposely sticking my d### in someone, drunk or not.

Now unless you are saying someone got off balance while drunk, fell, and their genitals landed into one another, well ok.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Murder in the Biblical since is TALING of INNOCENT LIFE. Taking the life of someone who is non-innocent is not murder...it is homicide. it's different. Biblically one is a Commandment, the other is not. Abortion is a murder, shooting a rapist is not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting. But I'm not a religious man either.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> You're right. It's in many threads... alcohol is not a good enough excuse. So, really, if it isn't good enough for someone who has cheated, it shouldn't be good enough to get a murder sentence reduced to manslaughter.


No, indeed.

If you made the decision to drink, you accept that you're responsible for the consequences of that decision. Unless you were unknowingly drugged, you made that choice. Being willingly drunk shouldn't mitigate anything.

(What it can do is make other choices - such as driving - worse.)


With the intention of getting slightly near topic (forum, if not thread ..) indulge me writing out a little true story...

Many years ago, whilst at university, I met a girl whom I liked very much - not only was she very beautiful, she was funny, engaging, intelligent, very very nice - seriously nice. I adored her. But, for reasons (which I'm not going to elaborate on) I didn't overtly pursue a relationship with her. Had she wanted one, I would unquestionably have been open to one, but we remained just friends.
I met the girl whom I would marry, left university, got married - my friend was at my wedding - and that's pretty much the last I saw of her for 18 years.
Recently - completely unexpectedly - we (my wife and I) met her at an event we were taking our children to. I recognised her instantly. But what I wasn't prepared for was the emotional impact it had on me. I could barely speak (I think she thought I wasn't certain who she was.) Luckily, I was able to write it off as not feeling well (which was true) and after a few pleasantries, we made an exit.
My wife's only comment was 'she's still a fine looking woman' - and yes, she is (as is my wife, of course.) I think my wife has some idea of how I felt about this woman when we were younger. I didn't expect to still feel the same way about her after so much time. These things appear to have been buried, but never extinguished.

I'm (highly confident) I would never have an affair with her (or anyone else, since we're on the subject) - and I have no doubt she'd never have an affair either. But I ever were to think about having an affair, were she to offer, I have to say, I would wonder, before saying no.

My point is, emotions burn strong, and past emotions can lie dormant for a long time, and burst into flame unexpectedly. Ex's (even ex's that weren't) are not safe. Avoid them.

Could I have an affair? I doubt it. But my doubts are fractionally less certain than they were before the recent encounter. Ex's are one of those circumstances that make it more likely.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> You're right. It's in many threads... alcohol is not a good enough excuse. So, really, if it isn't good enough for someone who has cheated, it shouldn't be good enough to get a murder sentence reduced to manslaughter.


That's not a fair analogy. As the difference between murder and manslaughter convictions are in determining the initial intent, one is premeditated in advance and the other is spur of the moment, yet they are both saying the person committed the killing and is fully responsible for it. It is not trying to changing the end result by changing the charge filed, they are both charging for a killing just trying to determine intent going in. So they are both guilty of the killing and punished for it, but if it was planned it might get a longer punishment instead of trying to absolve them of the wrong doing. It is not the difference between no punishment and punishment, as it is used with cheating. A better analogy would be using it to change the charge from murder to self defense. Punishment versus no punishment and deniable plausibility in this analogy. 

When using it in infidelity, it is used as an excuse against why the cheating occurred and trying to excuse the punishment for it. With infidelity people are trying to down play the end result by saying it wasn't their fault as they were under the influence, therefor the cheating really didn't happen as they weren't of their right mind and wouldn't have normally done it without the influence so it should be overlooked and forgotten without a punishment. It absolves them of all responsibility.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

So. Is it nature or nurture?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

chaos said:


> So. Is it nature or nurture?


The egg. 

ETA: The chicken. :scratchhead:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> Okay.
> 
> It's probably because you no longer know what it means to have your integrity and character questioned (on the subject of infidelity) when you've done nothing to warrant it.
> 
> I hope this clears up our different perspective to the same statement. In all the clamour of "It could happen you!" and "I thought the same, before I cheated...", I'll concede that it is easy for some to have an affair. But it's just as easy for me not to.


My wife has questioned if I was having an affair because: "We aren't having sex." I laughed and pointed out that not having sex was her decision.

A couple of years later she apologised for her low libido and told me to have an affair if I wanted to. She then specifically mentioned a friend of our who is also not getting sex due to her boy friend's medical condition.

I thanked my wife for kind offer but politely declined it.

Was it genuine or a test? I'm still not sure.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> My wife has questioned if I was having an affair because: "We aren't having sex." I laughed and pointed out that not having sex was her decision.
> 
> A couple of years later she apologised for her low libido and told me to have an affair if I wanted to. She then specifically mentioned a friend of our who is also not getting sex due to her boy friend's medical condition.
> 
> ...


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