# Dr. Harley says Be a cuckold?



## ConanHub

I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.

I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.

Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically. 

I think this is possibly the most idiotic idea I have ever heard but I am open minded.

Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?

What were the results?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

To quote Tim Rice (EVITA): "The man is a fool, breaking every taboo"

TAM is the only place worth checking on for advice (and ChumpLady) - the rest have their moments but ...


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## Marduk

Sigh. So many of these guys are great -- until it comes to cheating.

Dan Savage is another. As is Esther Perel. While both of them gave me lots of ways of thinking about affairs differently, none of them know their head from their ******* when it comes to dealing with one up front and personal.


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## 3putt

That's the problem I have with that place, but I'll be damned if there aren't plenty of success stories there.

Go figure.


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## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.
> 
> I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.
> 
> Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically.
> 
> I think this is possibly the most idiotic idea I have ever heard but I am open minded.
> 
> Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?
> 
> What were the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow....I wonder if that advice actually works...what self respecting man would take that advice? Wow..just wow...


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## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow....I wonder if that advice actually works...what self respecting man would take that advice? Wow..just wow...


Well, because I knew no better I, in effect, "niced" my wife out of her affair.

But it nearly destroyed me.

What would Dr Harley prescribe for a man or a woman who followed his plan and who actually felt so destroyed that they want to be dead? :scratchhead:

Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he?


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## NoChoice

MattMatt said:


> Well, because I knew no better I, in effect, "niced" my wife out of her affair.
> 
> But it nearly destroyed me.
> 
> What would Dr Harley prescribe for a man or a woman who followed his plan and who actually felt so destroyed that they want to be dead? :scratchhead:
> 
> *Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he*?


*Really bad advice*.

I very much enjoy competition in sports and I have been called fiercely competitive. However, in matters of romance, I would have no desire to compete. What trophy would I win? No thank you, I fail to see the benefit of trying to win someone's heart who doesn't want mine.


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## 3putt

MattMatt said:


> Well, because I knew no better I, in effect, "niced" my wife out of her affair.
> 
> But it nearly destroyed me.
> 
> *What would Dr Harley prescribe for a man or a woman who followed his plan and who actually felt so destroyed that they want to be dead?* :scratchhead:
> 
> Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he?


That's when he recommends going to the MB Plan B, which is zero contact except through an intermediary and only about vital issues.

And, no he can't prescribe meds, even though he fully endorses them. His PhD in psychology, not psychiatry.


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## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> Well, because I knew no better I, in effect, "niced" my wife out of her affair.
> 
> But it nearly destroyed me.
> 
> What would Dr Harley prescribe for a man or a woman who followed his plan and who actually felt so destroyed that they want to be dead? :scratchhead:
> 
> Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he?


It seems to encourage a form of "pick me pick me" begging on the part of the BH...


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## EleGirl

The way I read what Harley writes is that he has some male clients who will do anything they can to save their marriage.

And Harley knows what if a man is willing to do Plan A for 6 months, there is a very high probability that their wife will return to the marriage and the marriage can be rebuilt. So if a guy wants to do that, Harley can help him.

Since most men don't want to do that, Harley is not for most men when it comes to the Plan A for 6 months.

Most men and women can only take Plan A for about two weeks. In "Surviving an Affair", Harley is clear that most people cannot do Plan A for very long at all.

I think that people should do what they think is best for them.

.


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## EleGirl

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow....I wonder if that advice actually works...what self respecting man would take that advice? Wow..just wow...


Yes it does work. He has a high success rate. When I used to hang out on their board, there were a lot of marriages that recover.


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## Truthseeker1

3putt said:


> That's when he recommends going to the MB Plan B, which is zero contact except through an intermediary and only about vital issues.
> 
> And, no he can't prescribe meds, even though he fully endorses them. His PhD in psychology, not psychiatry.


I prefer Chumplady without her phd on this matter. :grin2:


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## Truthseeker1

EleGirl said:


> Yes it does work. He has a high success rate. When I used to hang out on their board, there were a lot of marriages that recover.


Like you posted earlier - it will work for people who will do anything to save their marriage even beg to be picked.


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## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Yes it does work. He has a high success rate. When I used to hang out on their board, there were a lot of marriages that recover.


I guess I can see it. For some people, non-monogamy isn't a deal breaker. Or for the kids, or out of whatever they get from the marriage that is so great as to want to get over this kind of betrayal.

I just couldn't see that kind of power imbalance working out long-term you know? I mean I don't think I'd respect my wife as much if she let me screw another woman for six months and then come back to open arms and have her be willing to work on the marriage.


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## lordmayhem

You all realize that Dr. Harley has already admitted that he would immediately divorce his wife if she cheated on him, right? I know I kept the quote and the link somewhere on my computer.

Yet it's ironic the kind of advice he gives about dealing with infidelity.


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## MattMatt

3putt said:


> That's when he recommends going to the MB Plan B, which is zero contact except through an intermediary and only about vital issues.
> 
> And, no he can't prescribe meds, even though he fully endorses them. His PhD in psychology, not psychiatry.


Yes, to be a psychiatrist a person needs an MD and then extra training an qualifications.

As an aside that is why the psychiatrist in MASH helped out in extreme situations in the operating theatre as he was an MD with some surgical experience.


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## Marduk

lordmayhem said:


> You all realize that Dr. Harley has already admitted that he would immediately divorce his wife if she cheated on him, right? I know I kept the quote and the link somewhere on my computer.


I think the point was for some guys, they would still want to find a way to make the marriage work.

Not every guy is that kind of guy.


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## 3putt

EleGirl said:


> The way I read what Harley writes is that he has some male clients who will do anything they can to save their marriage.
> 
> And Harley knows what if a man is willing to do Plan A for 6 months, there is a very high probability that their wife will return to the marriage and the marriage can be rebuilt. So if a guy wants to do that, Harley can help him.
> 
> Since most men don't want to do that, Harley is not for most men when it comes to the Plan A for 6 months.
> 
> Most men and women can only take Plan A for about two weeks. In "Surviving an Affair", Harley is clear that most people cannot do Plan A for very long at all.
> 
> I think that people should do what they think is best for them.
> 
> .


Actually, he recommends only 2 weeks Plan A for the BW, and 6 months to 2 years for the BH, if they so choose. The reason being that men are supposedly mentally stronger and can take it more than women. 

LOL...I have yet to see where that's the case, though. Sadly enough, I usually see the opposite.


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## WorkingOnMe

If I'm going to compete for a woman it won't be for a cheater. I figure Tears' husband had the right idea. Dump her and find someone new. Let her compete if she wants.


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## Truthseeker1

lordmayhem said:


> You all realize that Dr. Harley has already admitted that he would immediately divorce his wife if she cheated on him, right? I know I kept the quote and the link somewhere on my computer.
> 
> Yet it's ironic the kind of advice he gives about dealing with infidelity.


Interesting...why would anyone compete for 6 mos or a year to win a cheater in the end? What have you won exactly?


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## lordmayhem

marduk said:


> I think the point was for some guys, they would still want to find a way to make the marriage work.
> 
> Not every guy is that kind of guy.


I know that. It's just that he wouldn't practice what he preaches if it were him. Its hard for me to take someone like that seriously.


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## EleGirl

3putt said:


> Actually, he recommends only 2 weeks Plan A for the BW, and 6 months to 2 years for the BH, if they so choose. The reason being that men are supposedly mentally stronger and can take it more than women.


While he might recommend 6 months for BH, he is clear in his book that most people cannot do it that long.. only 2 weeks or so. 

He does claim that mean are mentally/emotionally stronger than women. That's his bias. 



3putt said:


> LOL...I have yet to see where that's the case, though. Sadly enough, I usually see the opposite.


Could be


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## Truthseeker1

EleGirl said:


> While he might recommend 6 months for BH, he is clear in his book that most people cannot do it that long.. only 2 weeks or so.
> *
> He does claim that mean are mentally/emotionally stronger than women. That's his bias. *
> 
> 
> 
> Could be


Bias is the right word...it depends on the person...


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> The way I read what Harley writes is that he has some male clients who will do anything they can to save their marriage.
> 
> And Harley knows what if a man is willing to do Plan A for 6 months, there is a very high probability that their wife will return to the marriage and the marriage can be rebuilt. So if a guy wants to do that, Harley can help him.
> 
> Since most men don't want to do that, Harley is not for most men when it comes to the Plan A for 6 months.
> 
> Most men and women can only take Plan A for about two weeks. In "Surviving an Affair", Harley is clear that most people cannot do Plan A for very long at all.
> 
> I think that people should do what they think is best for them.
> 
> .


He actually advises women to only allow their husband to have a mistress and them as well for three weeks. Still terrible advice but far shorter time period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> I guess I can see it. For some people, non-monogamy isn't a deal breaker. Or for the kids, or out of whatever they get from the marriage that is so great as to want to get over this kind of betrayal.
> 
> I just couldn't see that kind of power imbalance working out long-term you know? *I mean I don't think I'd respect my wife as much if she let me screw another woman for six months and then come back to open arms and have her be willing to work on the marriage.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree: It's unbecoming and looks weak and desperate. Like I posted earlier even if the cheater comes back - what have you won exactly?


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## ConanHub

I would ask him about increased risk of STDs as well as raising the APs baby if she got pregnant while fvcking her brains out with two, or more, men for six months to a year.

In his book he does not say this advice is only applicable to a few. It is his go to advice for ending an affair.

I have never seen anything more likely to help an affair continue.

I believe his advice to be reckless.

I will probably not hear to many examples on TAM of WWs allowed to **** their husbands for a year or husbands who let them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

EleGirl said:


> While he might recommend 6 months for BH, he is clear in his book that most people cannot do it that long.. only 2 weeks or so.


That 2 weeks only is for women. You should check that again.

He means that if after 6 months to 2 years (the extreme) he would recommend filing as it's a lost cause and not worth any more effort. And this time period is only if they feel they're strong enough for it. He's also stated very clearly that he is fully on board with filing immediately if that's what they want. Added that so there's no confusion on him being a 'recovery at all cost' kind of guy.


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## Pluto2

Plan A is the worst advice I've ever heard of for stopping an A. The BS has already had to suffer the humiliation and degredation of being cheated on, and then you're supposed to kiss a** for the privilege of getting the cheater back. No.


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## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> I would ask him about increased risk of STDs as well as raising the APs baby if she got pregnant while fvcking her brains out with two, or more, men for six months to a year.
> 
> In his book he does not say this advice is only applicable to a few. It is his go to advice for ending an affair.
> 
> I have never seen anything more likely to help an affair continue.
> 
> I believe his advice to be reckless.
> 
> I will probably not hear to many examples on TAM of WWs allowed to **** their husbands for a year or husbands who let them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you imagine wasting a year of your life waiting for your wife to stop [email protected]#$%^& her lover? In the meantime you wait there like a puppy waiting for their owner to come home. It's nauseating to think about. Plus what kind of self-image does the spouse have of themselves after groveling for a year? "I'm glad you are satisfied welcome home honey" SMH


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## Marduk

Well, maybe I could handle it if I was also knocking boots with every hot thing in a 60 block radius.

But I guess that would make it an open marriage. And, for me, there wouldn't be a point in it. I'd rather be single and not sweat who's banging my wife.


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## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> Well, because I knew no better I, in effect, "niced" my wife out of her affair.
> 
> But it nearly destroyed me.
> 
> What would Dr Harley prescribe for a man or a woman who followed his plan and who actually felt so destroyed that they want to be dead? :scratchhead:
> 
> Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he?


How long did you "nice" your wife while she was having sex with her AP? If I remember right, she wasn't having sex with you during her affair.

That alone makes your situation different than what Harley advises but how long did it last and how did it end?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

ConanHub said:


> How long did you "nice" your wife while she was having sex with her AP? If I remember right, she wasn't having sex with you during her affair.
> 
> That alone makes your situation different than what Harley advises but how long did it last and how did it end?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just as she told me she would, she ended her affair and she became mine again.

Then there was my stupid RA.

But we have been together for 26 years now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Truthseeker1 said:


> Can you imagine wasting a year of your life waiting for your wife to stop [email protected]#$%^& her lover? In the meantime you wait there like a puppy waiting for their owner to come home. It's nauseating to think about. Plus what kind of self-image does the spouse have of themselves after groveling for a year? "I'm glad you are satisfied welcome home honey" SMH


It is actually worse. Imagine treating her like a queen while she is cucking you, taking her on second honeymoon vacations and asking no questions about her AP or her affair.

He does suggest asking what her walking dildo is giving her that he is not and trying to fill that need so that he can compete better with her lover.

Pretty sick shyt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

Pluto2 said:


> Plan A is the worst advice I've ever heard of for stopping an A. The BS has already had to suffer the humiliation and degredation of being cheated on, and then you're supposed to kiss a** for the privilege of getting the cheater back. No.


What folks around here tend to focus on when it comes to bashing the MB Plan A is the carrot of it, and completely forget/dismiss the other half of Plan A, which is the stick. And that's a *complete nuclear exposure* to kill the affair, which is done a helluva lot more there than here, I can assure you. And by complete, I mean all in one day exposure to all the members of the family and friends of the WS's that can have an influence on them, and total nuclear (no holds barred) on the affair partner.

Been here almost 3 years now and I have *yet* to see *one* person do it the way it's supposed to be done.


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## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> Just as she told me she would, she ended her affair and she became mine again.
> 
> Then there was my stupid RA.
> 
> But we have been together for 26 years now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wondered how long her affair lasted. Did she tell you how long her affair would last before starting it?

Your situation is definitely not covered in Harley's book or probably any book.

Don't think it is actually comparable to what has been advised in the OP.

Still have a twilight moment whenever I hear your story.

I don't think your niceness snapped your wife out of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

3putt said:


> What folks around here tend to focus on when it comes to bashing the MB Plan A is the carrot of it, and completely forget/dismiss the other half of Plan A, which is the stick. And that's a *complete nuclear exposure* to kill the affair, which is done a helluva lot more there than here, I can assure you. And by complete, I mean all in one day exposure to all the members of the family and friends of the WS's that can have an influence on them, and total nuclear (no holds barred) on the affair partner.
> 
> Been here almost 3 years now and I have *yet* to see *one* person do it the way it's supposed to be done.


I agree with Harley's exposure advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

3putt said:


> What folks around here tend to focus on when it comes to bashing the MB Plan A is the carrot of it, and completely forget/dismiss the other half of Plan A, which is the stick. And that's a *complete nuclear exposure* to kill the affair, which is done a helluva lot more there than here, I can assure you. And by complete, I mean all in one day exposure to all the members of the family and friends of the WS's that can have an influence on them, and total nuclear (no holds barred) on the affair partner.
> 
> Been here almost 3 years now and I have *yet* to see *one* person do it the way it's supposed to be done.


To some cheaters that type of exposure is worse than an RA. I'd even expose at their places or work, worship, their softball team everyone...>


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## 3putt

Truthseeker1 said:


> To some cheaters that type of exposure is worse than an RA. I'd even expose at their places or work, worship, their softball team everyone...>


And that's exactly what Dr. H endorses. Hell, he wrote the book on it. And I'm totally on board with it.

As an aside, I cringe when I see people advising others to use exposure as an ace up the sleeve when it comes to trying to work out an 'amicable' divorce. How many times have we seen that actually work? One?....maybe two? Not good odds.


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## RoseAglow

Harley endorses divorcing a cheating spouse- he recommends it especially when it's a young marriage with no kids.

He says that for people who want to stay married, the best way to achieve it is:
1. Kill the affair- he is a strong advocate of exposure. He encourages BHs to go visit the OM (with another person and of course BH should avoid doing anything illegal.) 

All family members, should know. Kids four and up should know that WS has a boyfriend/girlfriend, which is wrong for married people. The kids should know the name of the AP. That's about it, no other badmouthing or any other editorializing. Work places should know if it is a work place affair. Churches should know if it's a church affair or if the WS is religious. The WS and AP should have no place to hide.

2. For men, go into Plan A. Men should NOT move out of the house. Yes, continue to pay your share of the house stuff. However, do NOT finance the affair- stop paying for cell phones, stop paying for internet, etc. Let the WW know that the affair is causing devastation. But otherwise stay calm, friendly, be the best husband possible. 

3. For women, do a Plan A for only as long as necessary to get everything lined up for a very dark Plan B. Plan B is No Contact at all with the WH. An intermediary is used for any communication, kid drop off/pick ups are set to day cares, school, IMs as much as possible. The BS goes dark as night.

The reason for Plan A is that most affairs die within 6 months of a good exposure. A WW is more likely to go back to a husband who has been in Plan A than one who has moved on. A WS is more likely to go back to a BW who has gone dark. Harley's bias is that women prefer to be pursued and that men actually find a women pursuing them to be unattractive.

4. IF they come back, a WS has to agree to the MB principles. 
1. No contact letter, written by WS and mailed by BS.
2. Transparency at all times- all passwords are available. BS is encouraged to spot check phones. 
3. Accountability at all times- BS knows where WS is.
4. Very limited contact with OS- no workplaces lunches with OS unless in groups, and maybe not even then.
5. No nights apart, ever.
6. Whatever made the affair possible must be eliminated from the lifestyle of the couple. If it was a workplace affair, the WS quits. Many WSs give up a smartphone so they aren't tempted to contact/IM/FB the AP. Most APs give up social media entirely.
7. Spouses work together to determine Just Compensation that the WS owes the BS
8. Spouses agree to follow policy of joint agreement and policy of radical honesty.

If these steps are not followed, he encourages the BS to divorce. He says that most of the time, given enough time, most WS return.

There is this idea that MB "allows" the WS free reign. This is not true, there are a lot of consequences. 

It is not true that MB encourages a BS to be a Cuckold. In no way does MB promote the idea that "Affairs are OK." There is an acknowledgement that affairs continue for a while, even after D-Day and initial exposure. That is reality. 

I agree that "Plan TAM" (e.g. 180, move to divorce, have WS win back BS) is much easier on the BS. It is easier on the BS's pride, it is easier on their mental, physical, and emotional well-being.

The MB website, like TAM, shows marriages in crisis in real-time. There are many successes on the website (if one can tolerate reading it- the posters are unyielding.)

ETA: For men or women in Plan A, sex is not necessary. If a BS wants to be sexual during Plan A, condoms are encouraged. That helps address the STD issue. 

For women, Plan A is really just done in order to be as much as Model Wife as possible until she can get into the emotional safety of Plan B. The idea is that the WS should be left with the memory of an attractive spouse before BS disappears from his life, but it needs to be kept very short. Hopefully I'll never have to go through it, but if I do I definitely would go dark as soon as humanly possible. I am a pretty strong chica but I don't have the stones for a Plan A.


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## 3putt

RoseAglow said:


> Harley endorses divorcing a cheating spouse- he recommends it especially when it's a young marriage with no kids.
> 
> He says that for people who want to stay married, the best way to achieve it is:
> 1. Kill the affair- he is a strong advocate of exposure. He encourages BHs to go visit the OM (with another person and of course BH should avoid doing anything illegal.) All family members, including kids, should know that WS has a boyfriend/girlfriend, which is wrong for married people. The kids should know the same of the AP. That's about it, no other badmouthing or any other editorializing. Work places should know if it is a work place affair. Churches should know if it's a church affair or if the WS is religious. The WS and AP should have no place to hide.
> 
> 2. For men, go into Plan A. Men should NOT move out of the house. Yes, continue to pay your share of the house stuff. However, do NOT finance the affair- stop paying for cell phones, stop paying for internet, etc. Let the WW know that the affair is causing devastation. But otherwise stay calm, friendly, be the best husband possible.
> 
> 3. For women, do a Plan A for only as long as necessary to get everything lined up for a very dark Plan B. Plan B is No Contact at all with the WH. An intermediary is used for any communication, kid drop off/pick ups are set to day cares, school, IMs as much as possible. The BS goes dark as night.
> 
> The reason for Plan A is that most affairs die within 6 months of a good exposure. A WW is more likely to go back to a husband who has been in Plan A than one who has moved on. A WS is more likely to go back to a BW who has gone dark. Harley's bias is that women prefer to be pursued and that men actually find a women pursuing them to be unattractive.
> 
> 4. IF they come back, a WS has to agree to the MB principles.
> 1. No contact letter, written by WS and mailed by BS.
> 2. Transparency at all times- all passwords are available. BS is encouraged to spot check phones.
> 3. Accountability at all times- BS knows where WS is.
> 4. Very limited contact with OS- no workplaces lunches with OS unless in groups, and maybe not even then.
> 5. No nights apart, ever.
> 6. Whatever made the affair possible must be eliminated from the lifestyle of the couple. If it was a workplace affair, the WS quits. Many WSs give up a smartphone so they aren't tempted to contact/IM/FB the AP. Most APs give up social media entirely.
> 7. Spouses work together to determine Just Compensation that the WS owes the BS
> 8. Spouses agree to follow policy of joint agreement and policy of radical honesty.
> 
> If these steps are not followed, he encourages the BS to divorce. He says that most of the time, given enough time, most WS return.
> 
> There is this idea that MB "allows" the WS free reign. This is not true, there are a lot of consequences.
> 
> It is not true that MB encourages a BS to be a Cuckold. In no way does MB promote the idea that "Affairs are OK." There is an acknowledgement that affairs continue for a while, even after D-Day and initial exposure. That is reality.
> 
> I agree that "Plan TAM" (e.g. 180, move to divorce, have WS win back BS) is much easier on the BS. It is easier on the BS's pride, it is easier on their mental, physical, and emotional well-being.
> 
> The MB website, like TAM, shows marriages in crisis in real-time. There are many successes on the website (if one can tolerate reading it- the posters are unyielding.)


Very well put, Rose.


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## Truthseeker1

3putt said:


> And that's exactly what Dr. H endorses. Hell, he wrote the book on it. And I'm totally on board with it.
> 
> As an aside, I cringe when I see people advising others to use exposure as an ace up the sleeve when it comes to trying to work out an 'amicable' divorce. How many times have we seen that actually work? One?....maybe two? Not good odds.


That's why an RA does not necessarily do what iit is intended to do. Cheaters may have different weaknesses than the BS - so in fact exposure and humiliation may be more feared than their spouse sleeping with someone else in retaliation for their own affair. In fact an RA might make the cheater feel BETTER not worse - it depends on the situation.


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## ConanHub

RoseAglow said:


> Harley endorses divorcing a cheating spouse- he recommends it especially when it's a young marriage with no kids.
> 
> He says that for people who want to stay married, the best way to achieve it is:
> 1. Kill the affair- he is a strong advocate of exposure. He encourages BHs to go visit the OM (with another person and of course BH should avoid doing anything illegal.) All family members, including kids, should know that WS has a boyfriend/girlfriend, which is wrong for married people. The kids should know the same of the AP. That's about it, no other badmouthing or any other editorializing. Work places should know if it is a work place affair. Churches should know if it's a church affair or if the WS is religious. The WS and AP should have no place to hide.
> 
> 2. For men, go into Plan A. Men should NOT move out of the house. Yes, continue to pay your share of the house stuff. However, do NOT finance the affair- stop paying for cell phones, stop paying for internet, etc. Let the WW know that the affair is causing devastation. But otherwise stay calm, friendly, be the best husband possible.
> 
> 3. For women, do a Plan A for only as long as necessary to get everything lined up for a very dark Plan B. Plan B is No Contact at all with the WH. An intermediary is used for any communication, kid drop off/pick ups are set to day cares, school, IMs as much as possible. The BS goes dark as night.
> 
> The reason for Plan A is that most affairs die within 6 months of a good exposure. A WW is more likely to go back to a husband who has been in Plan A than one who has moved on. A WS is more likely to go back to a BW who has gone dark. Harley's bias is that women prefer to be pursued and that men actually find a women pursuing them to be unattractive.
> 
> 4. IF they come back, a WS has to agree to the MB principles.
> 1. No contact letter, written by WS and mailed by BS.
> 2. Transparency at all times- all passwords are available. BS is encouraged to spot check phones.
> 3. Accountability at all times- BS knows where WS is.
> 4. Very limited contact with OS- no workplaces lunches with OS unless in groups, and maybe not even then.
> 5. No nights apart, ever.
> 6. Whatever made the affair possible must be eliminated from the lifestyle of the couple. If it was a workplace affair, the WS quits. Many WSs give up a smartphone so they aren't tempted to contact/IM/FB the AP. Most APs give up social media entirely.
> 7. Spouses work together to determine Just Compensation that the WS owes the BS
> 8. Spouses agree to follow policy of joint agreement and policy of radical honesty.
> 
> If these steps are not followed, he encourages the BS to divorce. He says that most of the time, given enough time, most WS return.
> 
> There is this idea that MB "allows" the WS free reign. This is not true, there are a lot of consequences.
> 
> It is not true that MB encourages a BS to be a Cuckold. In no way does MB promote the idea that "Affairs are OK." There is an acknowledgement that affairs continue for a while, even after D-Day and initial exposure. That is reality.
> 
> I agree that "Plan TAM" (e.g. 180, move to divorce, have WS win back BS) is much easier on the BS. It is easier on the BS's pride, it is easier on their mental, physical, and emotional well-being.
> 
> The MB website, like TAM, shows marriages in crisis in real-time. There are many successes on the website (if one can tolerate reading it- the posters are unyielding.)


I actually have the book right in front of me. You must be reading a different version but my version was purchased yesterday.
You are right on the exposure issue but he absolutely advocates being a **** for six months to a year for betrayed husbands.

He advises them to romance their wives to the best of their ability while they get plowed by their AP.

What version are you reading?

Same advice on his site as well.

He advises no hard action or words other than nit approving of the affair and wanting it to stop. Otherwise take your cheating wife on honeymoon style vacations and love her like crazy while she is busy getting her brains fvcked out by her AP for up to a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> I actually have the book right in front of me. You must be reading a different version but my version was purchased yesterday.
> You are right on the exposure issue but he absolutely advocates being a **** for six months to a year for betrayed husbands.
> 
> He advises them to romance their wives to the best of their ability while they get plowed by their AP.
> 
> What version are you reading?
> 
> Same advice on his site as well.
> 
> *He advises no hard action or words other than nit approving of the affair and wanting it to stop. Otherwise take your cheating wife on honeymoon style vacations and love her like crazy while she is busy getting her brains fvcked out by her AP for up to a year.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That makes me want to puke...


----------



## ConanHub

Also Rose. Have you personally seen treating a cheating wife like it is a second honeymoon while she screws another man for six months to a year?

Results?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Truthseeker1 said:


> That makes me want to puke...


Anyone with an I.Q. of 10 or higher with better morals than a goat in heat would feel the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

3putt said:


> That's the problem I have with that place, but I'll be damned if there aren't plenty of success stories there.
> 
> Go figure.


I wouldn't call that success.


----------



## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> He advises no hard action or words other than nit approving of the affair and wanting it to stop. Otherwise take your cheating wife on honeymoon style vacations and love her like crazy while she is busy getting her brains fvcked out by her AP for up to a year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's the part I cannot endorse. I just don't have it in me, but apparently some can.


----------



## just got it 55

ConanHub said:


> I actually have the book right in front of me. You must be reading a different version but my version was purchased yesterday.
> You are right on the exposure issue but he absolutely advocates being a **** for six months to a year for betrayed husbands.
> 
> He advises them to romance their wives to the best of their ability while they get plowed by their AP.
> 
> What version are you reading?
> 
> Same advice on his site as well.
> 
> He advises no hard action or words other than nit approving of the affair and wanting it to stop. Otherwise take your cheating wife on honeymoon style vacations and love her like crazy while she is busy getting her brains fvcked out by her AP for up to a year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not for me kids I prefer eating glass.

55


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> I wouldn't call that success.


Neither would I, but we're not talking about us. It's about them and their wants.


----------



## RoseAglow

ConanHub said:


> I actually have the book right in front of me. You must be reading a different version but my version was purchased yesterday.
> You are right on the exposure issue but he absolutely advocates being a **** for six months to a year for betrayed husbands.



I think we have different definitions then. 



> He advises them to romance their wives to the best of their ability while they get plowed by their AP.


Keep reading. He advises the BH to break up the affair, to make things difficult for the AP, to make it difficult for the WW to be anywhere near the AP, to create chaos and confusion in the affair.



> What version are you reading?
> 
> Same advice on his site as well.
> 
> He advises no hard action or words other than nit approving of the affair and wanting it to stop. Otherwise take your cheating wife on honeymoon style vacations and love her like crazy while she is busy getting her brains fvcked out by her AP for up to a year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, he does advocate taking your wife out on dates (and maybe posting pics on FB and tagging Wifey so that AP sees her out and about. )

Yes, he does suggest going on vacations. And family events. WW tend to get "confused" about their feelings when they've spent several days in paradise with awesome H and kids, and start to wonder what exactly she is giving up. Same thing for holidays and other family-oriented events (Family Commitment is often a top emotional need for women.)

That is all the Carrot. You consider it being a Cuckold. I don't- this is one part of a two-part offense. Part 2 is the "Stick". It is working to chase off the AP. Making sure the AP's wife and parents know. Going to see the AP and letting the AP know that there is going to be hell to pay. Doing whatever it takes to (legally) shake things up.

Harley also advocates a BH filing for divorce if needed, to protect himself financially. But if asked about it by WW, a BH is encouraged to "just leave the divorce talk to the lawyers" and only "be concerned about building a great marriage."

The BH at no time endorses the affair and allows the WW to think that it is all OK. Her children know that she is cheating. Everyone knows that she is cheating. She should be getting pressure from people closest to her, they should be looking at the Awesome Husband and Beautiful Family and telling her to come back to her senses. It is not Wine and Roses for the WW. If it is, the BH isn't following the plan.


----------



## RoseAglow

ConanHub said:


> Also Rose. Have you personally seen treating a cheating wife like it is a second honeymoon while she screws another man for six months to a year?
> 
> Results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MB is successful for many people. But it is very, very difficult to do. I personally could not do it if I were a man. It is much easier for a woman because it's very short. I could have a smile on my face for a few days if I knew that behind the scenes, I was putting together an escape. Men don't have that luxury.

The thing to remember is, Plan A is just one step in a long process. It is not the End-All, Be-All. 

First, Plan A is only ever successful if the affair dies. The whole deadline for Plan A is based on how long it takes for the affair to die (or how long the BH can stick it out.) Most affairs die within 6 months of exposure.

Harley says that an affair that lasts two years or more is probably going to be one of the few that lasts for a while, possibly resulting in marriage (but he says "Affairages" also have a very high divorce rate.)

So if the affair doesn't die, Plan A has to end and the BH knows he truly went the last mile for his marriage.

If the affair does die- and a BH in Plan A should be doing everything possible to disrupt the affair- then the WW is much more likely going to agree to try out the program. She probably won't like it and will still be angry and resentful, but a cake-eater spouse (who sucked up Plan A and an AP) typically will go with the flow if it keeps the overall disruption down.

The real "magic" in recovery takes place when/if the spouses fully commit to working the MB plan. THAT is where recovery happens, or not. 

Even a reluctant, formerly WS can fall back in love if they follow the program. MB specializes in working with an enthusiastic spouse and a reluctant one, WS or otherwise.

If the MB plan is followed, the BS gets, over time, Just Compensation. WS can never take back what happened, but s/he can re-build something bigger and better. The MB program itself is robust if both partners agree to it. 

To me, that is the striking thing about MB. People post who have recovered their marriages a long time ago. Most BS really struggle for about 5 years, and then some finally divorce but most are glad to have stayed. People come back from 6, 10, years ago to refer their friends/family who are experiencing infidelity. It has a good record.

I see BHs on TAM (and LS) who regret reconciling, or who feel that they will never truly be healed. I think that is because there is no real guidance for what happens once both spouses have decided that they really do want to reconcile.

Maybe another path should be Plan TAM until the point of reconciliation, if it happens. Then follow an MB (or similar) program.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I'd take my new girlfriend on vacations and post THOSE pics on Facebook. As I said, she would be welcome to compete. Of course for me divorce would be plan a.


----------



## Truthseeker1

RoseAglow said:


> MB is successful for many people. But it is very, very difficult to do. I personally could not do it if I were a man. It is much easier for a woman because it's very short. I could have a smile on my face for a few days if I knew that behind the scenes, I was putting together an escape. Men don't have that luxury.
> 
> The thing to remember is, Plan A is just one step in a long process. It is not the End-All, Be-All.
> 
> First, Plan A is only ever successful if the affair dies. The whole deadline for Plan A is based on how long it takes for the affair to die (or how long the BH can stick it out.) Most affairs die within 6 months of exposure.
> 
> Harley says that an affair that lasts two years or more is probably going to be one of the few that lasts for a while, possibly resulting in marriage (but he says "Affairages" also have a very high divorce rate.)
> 
> So if the affair doesn't die, Plan A has to end and the BH knows he truly went the last mile for his marriage.
> 
> If the affair does die- and a BH in Plan A should be doing everything possible to disrupt the affair- then the WW is much more likely going to agree to try out the program. She probably won't like it and will still be angry and resentful, but a cake-eater spouse (who sucked up Plan A and an AP) typically will go with the flow if it keeps the overall disruption down.
> 
> The real "magic" in recovery takes place when/if the spouses fully commit to working the MB plan. THAT is where recovery happens, or not.
> 
> Even a reluctant, formerly WS can fall back in love if they follow the program. MB specializes in working with an enthusiastic spouse and a reluctant one, WS or otherwise.
> 
> If the MB plan is followed, the BS gets, over time, Just Compensation. WS can never take back what happened, but s/he can re-build something bigger and better. The MB program itself is robust if both partners agree to it.
> 
> *To me, that is the striking thing about MB. People post who have recovered their marriages a long time ago. Most BS really struggle for about 5 years, and then some finally divorce but most are glad to have stayed. People come back from 6, 10, years ago to refer their friends/family who are experiencing infidelity. It has a good record.*
> 
> I see BHs on TAM (and LS) who regret reconciling, or who feel that they will never truly be healed. I think that is because there is no real guidance for what happens once both spouses have decided that they really do want to reconcile.
> 
> Maybe another path should be Plan TAM until the point of reconciliation, if it happens. Then follow an MB (or similar) program.


Yeah after years of torment and hell...the unfair part is the BS gets tortured for 5 years while the cheater has gone out and had their fun...what is the point of that journey...


----------



## RoseAglow

Truthseeker1 said:


> Yeah after years of torment and hell...the unfair part is the BS gets tortured for 5 years while the cheater has gone out and had their fun...what is the point of that journey...


No matter what, it seems that any reconciliation MB, TAM, LS, DB, whatever, takes about 5 years. If the BS is still suffering 5 years in then it was clearly a false reconciliation. The BS's suffering should reduce within the first two years, according to what I've read from several sources.

Harley contends that Reconciliation ultimately leads to the most happiness for long-marrieds and couples with children, but only if both spouses are truly committed and work the program, and of course that's the trick. Life is awesome for married with children when both spouses are truly committed, duh! But one spouse has broken that commitment, how can you trust anything? Harley says to Trust but verify for all spouses. 

IRL, I've seen long-term successful Affairages, my FIL is in one. I tend to think that people who have experienced infidelity are happier if they divorce (at least BS) but it's quite possible that I am unknowingly surrounded by couples who survived infidelity and are happy together. The ones who divorce are more likely to have announced it. 

Infidelity is a sh!t sandwich, no matter what. I don't blame anyone for walking away. I don't know what I'd do and I hope I never have to find out.

ETA: To be clear, I've seen a 5 year demarcation on MB. I've seen several BS decide to leave at 5 years, and I've seen several people come back to say that they feel they've made it. It wasn't accurate to say that "people really struggle", it is more that 5 years seems to be the make-or-break it point. If it still isn't working, it's a time that many people call it quits.


----------



## Truthseeker1

RoseAglow said:


> No matter what, it seems that any reconciliation MB, TAM, LS, DB, whatever, takes about 5 years. If the BS is still suffering 5 years in then it was clearly a false reconciliation. The BS's suffering should reduce within the first two years, according to what I've read from several sources.
> 
> Harley contends that Reconciliation ultimately leads to the most happiness for long-marrieds and couples with children, but only if both spouses are truly committed and work the program, and of course that's the trick. Life is awesome for married with children when both spouses are truly committed, duh! But one spouse has broken that commitment, how can you trust anything? Harley says to Trust but verify for all spouses.
> 
> IRL, I've seen long-term successful Affairages, my FIL is in one. I tend to think that people who have experienced infidelity are happier if they divorce (at least BS) but it's quite possible that I am unknowingly surrounded by couples who survived infidelity and are happy together. The ones who divorce are more likely to have announced it.
> 
> *Infidelity is a sh!t sandwich, no matter what*.Agree 110%..and its served up steaming hot by the cheating spouse. I don't blame anyone for walking away. I don't know what I'd do and I hope I never have to find out.
> 
> ETA: To be clear, I've seen a 5 year demarcation on MB. I've seen several BS decide to leave at 5 years, and I've seen several people come back to say that they feel they've made it. It wasn't accurate to say that "people really struggle", it is more that 5 years seems to be the make-or-break it point. If it still isn't working, it's a time that many people call it quits.


The truth is the bulk of the emotional scarring will be suffered by the BS . That is the [email protected]#$%^& unfairness of it all. Cheaters can be remorseful, empathize, do and say the right things but they truly have NO CLUE about the damage they have done to the BS. Zero. Unless one day they get blindsided by a betrayal of this magnitude they will go through life blissfully unaware of what they have done.


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## ConanHub

Taking care of a cheating wife's needs including all the romance and roses while not saying anything harsh to her about fvcking another man or arguing with her about it, just saying he doesn't like it and wants it to stop is so close to being a **** it doesn't make a difference.

It is definitely making a tramp the prize in a grotesque competition.

It is proven to extend an affair and continue the damage.

Harley's plan B executed immediately has far more desirable affects for reconciliation and divorce.

I am quite certain Harley is very appreciated by WWs who got to have their fantasy life even while their husbands kept supporting them financially and emotionally.

It must be really great to come home to an adoring husband after a romantic evening getting her brains fvcked out with affair sex, that her H knows about, and her H is buying her roses, taking her out to dinner and planning a second honeymoon.

This is serious brain damage.

Anyway Rose, you don't appear to have examples of Harley's plan A.

I was seriously wondering about real stories of the attempt with results, good, bad or indifferent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CTPlay

I'm sorry. I just can't read anymore. 

For a man or woman to have an open affair while they leave their spouse at home while they get selflessly treated is by absolute definition, SOULLESS.

I am no PhD. But point to me through another situation where we treat criminals, delinquent children, addicts, transients, poor performing employees, etc with the same tactic?

Perhaps we should apply those established social enforcement tactics to Waywards as well.

You cheat. Your transgressions are fairly identified. You are directed to stop and you are offered resources and help to stop. You continue to repeat offend without conscience. You are let go or removed from the situation to prevent further harm to others.

vs

You cheat. You are treated really well and free to continue. Significant time passes with no sign of ending. You are finally let go when it is clear the behavior doesn't stop. 

Hey let's apply the above method to say, crime? Or how about a disruptive employee? 

Forget plan A. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go straight to filing.


----------



## jim123

Good posts Rose. I am not sure Harley understands why his system may work. It is not that men are emotional stronger.

Women cheat emotionally. They tend to love AP and have also demonized the BH and the M. 6 months after the A, the WW realizes (or can) that OM did not love them. The BH is actually a far better man. They want to keep the family after the OM dumps them.

A WW may be willing to leave the M thinking the OM does love them. Quick action then make the D happen even when it should not.

For WH, he does not love the WW and often has little respect for the WW. He does not want to lose his family. He often will continue the affair as long as the BW will allow him.


----------



## RoseAglow

ConanHub said:


> Taking care of a cheating wife's needs including all the romance and roses while not saying anything harsh to her about fvcking another man or arguing with her about it, just saying he doesn't like it and wants it to stop is so close to being a **** it doesn't make a difference.


The typical WW will resist a BH doing Plan A. In reality there aren't tons of BHs picking up the WW and carrying her over the threshold to their room strewn with roses, just as she is returning from her AP. That isn't how it plays out in reality.

In reality, she scuttles home and everyone in the house knows about it. A BH is encouraged to communicate but not be a ****. "Home from your nightly bang?" is not encouraged. "Neither I nor the kids appreciate what you're doing. You are destroying the family" works better, especially when a WW has to look at her kids and see their pain/disapproval.

That is why Exposure is a critical component. The WW goes along with the BH and the kids under duress. Her kids are angry with her. Her family thinks she is crazy. Her AP is flipping out because his wife knows and his mom came over screaming at him. Her options are limited. There is no where to hide, no way to explain that she and the BH just fell out of love and hey, look at this brand new guy who had nothing to do with her marital breakup!



> It is definitely making a tramp the prize in a grotesque competition.


The "tramp" is most certainly the prize. I think that is true for anyone trying to keep their family and marriage together after reconciliation, Plan A or Plan TAM. No one can successful reconcile if they view their WW as a Tramp. They can only successfully reconcile if they view their WW as someone worth loving, someone important to them. Even if a BS does a Plan TAM and divorces the WS, if they take them back, they are accepting the WS's actions in some form. Not approving- just accepting that they happened and moving on.



> It is proven to extend an affair and continue the damage.
> 
> Harley's plan B executed immediately has far more desirable affects for reconciliation and divorce.


As for whether his Plan B has better effects? Truthfully, I am not sure if there is a "proven" method. I am not sure anyone can say for certain what works best. There are zero "Plan TAM" success stories on MB but anyone doing Plan TAM on MB would get banned, as they do not allow discussions/deviations from the MB plan. I don't think I've seen a single Plan B success story for a BH, I have seen them for BWs. I have seen BHs who do Plan A up to divorce, and then after divorce their WW comes back and they remarry. There are a fair number of failures on MB as well- especially among married with no kids. 

There aren't all that many success stories on TAM, either, if the measure of success is Reconciliation. It's hard to get there after infidelity. MB says that there is a One Size Fits All. As you can see I have read a ton of MB and agree with Harley on many things- I disagree with the One Size Fits All, but I do agree that there is a good chance of success for many of those who can pull it off. 




> I am quite certain Harley is very appreciated by WWs who got to have their fantasy life even while their husbands kept supporting them financially and emotionally.


A WW who begins to "wake up" and come out of the fog DOES appreciate her husband. What WW tend to say, after NC and the other MB Extraordinary Precautions, is that the WW are hugely grateful that their husbands fought for them, and they feel very lucky and fortunate and loved. It tends to be an easier transition than on TAM because MB has the BS and WS living together for as long as possible, so there often hasn't been an actual physical separation. 



> It must be really great to come home to an adoring husband after a romantic evening getting her brains fvcked out with affair sex, that her H knows about, and her H is buying her roses, taking her out to dinner and planning a second honeymoon.
> 
> This is serious brain damage.
> 
> Anyway Rose, you don't appear to have examples of Harley's plan A.
> 
> I was seriously wondering about real stories of the attempt with results, good, bad or indifferent.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking for actual examples. Can we link to other competing websites on TAM? I can pull some threads from the MB website. They certainly exist. I can PM some to you if posting isn't allowed.

Some general examples of successful Plan As:

WW gets fired from her job due to exposure and no longer has easy access to AP. AP is in crisis mode because his wife was part of the exposure. AP throws WW under the bus. WW starts to wake up. She realizes that her best bet is with BH and agrees to NC and MB program.

Another typical Plan A success story occurs when a BH get can some dirt on the AP via a back-ground check. Finding out that one's AP has a history of child porn or domestic abuse can often (but sadly not always) wake a WW up. 

I can think of three recent-ish times when a BH did a Plan A all the way up to divorce, and after divorce the WW wanted to come back. Two BH agreed and to my knowledge, have been successful as of recently, a few years down the line. One BH said No. 

Remember that the over-arching goal of Plan A is to keep the WW nearby until the affair is killed. Plan B (and Plan TAM, as far as I can tell) is meant to protect the BS, which often means separating.

I can fully understand why people would choke on Plan A. BH have continued to Plan A even in the face of false charges, false restraining orders and other truly terrible, despicable behavior.

One of the more recent big Plan A successes occurred when a BS was forced into a mental hospitalization for a weekend. He continued to fight and was able to uncover that the AP was actually the one who caused him to be taken in. The WW also played a part but mostly unwittingly, she didn't realize what was happening. Once she realized what happened, she woke up. She left the AP and returned back to her BH. 

That's the rub. There surely are successes. But you have to swallow a TON of horrible stuff to pull it off. You kind of have to look at the WS in a different light- that the WS is sick, or addicted, not him/herself. You can take a lot more abuse if you view the person doing it as sick. You don't take them seriously, anymore than you'd take the emotional rants of a drunk person seriously.

There are also some "successful" Plan As that have ended in divorce but with the husband having custody- two posters come to mind (one of them is the BH who declined to reconcile with this WW after divorce.) I think the BH's are OK with their outcomes. 

Feel free to PM me if you want some links. It is midnight my time but I'll round some up for you tomorrow.


----------



## dash74

Truthseeker1 said:


> Interesting...why would anyone compete for 6 mos or a year to win a cheater in the end? What have you won exactly?


Hopefully not hiv


----------



## Dyokemm

"Well, maybe I could handle it if I was also knocking boots with every hot thing in a 60 block radius."

Marduk,

Well...I guess, maybe in some a**-backwards kind of way, this might work.

If the WS saw the BS happily doing the Plan A with them, but also saw them running around with a slew of AP's themselves, maybe the WS might get scared about their BS finding someone else and moving on.

After all, most cheaters seem to hate the idea of being cheated on themselves....and if if was being done by a cheery and loving BS, rather than angry and vengeful one, then it might start to appear to WS that BS was moving to replace them quickly.

After all, there are several threads here on TAM where a WS's attitude and interest in the BS did a 180 after they thought the BS was seeing someone else.

I agree with you though....still isn't worth it.

But I think it might be more effective than just moping, begging, and kissing the WS's a** in the hope they will quit the A and come back to the M on their own.

In the end though...I think the best course for a BS that wants R is to deliver an ultimatum backed up by filing for D....either the WS ends the A and starts trying to save the M, or they lose it.


----------



## ConanHub

jim123 said:


> Good posts Rose. I am not sure Harley understands why his system may work. It is not that men are emotional stronger.
> 
> Women cheat emotionally. They tend to love AP and have also demonized the BH and the M. 6 months after the A, the WW realizes (or can) that OM did not love them. The BH is actually a far better man. They want to keep the family after the OM dumps them.
> 
> A WW may be willing to leave the M thinking the OM does love them. Quick action then make the D happen even when it should not.
> 
> For WH, he does not love the WW and often has little respect for the WW. He does not want to lose his family. He often will continue the affair as long as the BW will allow him.


Bvllshyt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude

ConanHub said:


> I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.
> 
> I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.
> 
> Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically.
> 
> I think this is possibly the most idiotic idea I have ever heard but I am open minded.
> 
> Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?
> 
> What were the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:surprise:

What? Where? Links please!

:rofl: This is fking unbelievable!


----------



## larry.gray

ConanHub said:


> Bvllshyt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have to clarify which part.



jim123 said:


> Women cheat emotionally. They tend to love AP and have also demonized the BH and the M. 6 months after the A, the WW realizes (or can) that OM did not love them. The BH is actually a far better man. They want to keep the family after the OM dumps them.
> 
> A WW may be willing to leave the M thinking the OM does love them. *Quick action then make the D happen even when it should not.*


I fully concur if you're calling BS on the bolded part. It is impossible to divorce a cheating spouse too fast.




jim123 said:


> For WH, he does not love the WW and often has little respect for the WW. He does not want to lose his family. He often will continue the affair as long as the BW will allow him.


I think this part is very accurate. Nearly all men are looking for a place to poke their pecker, not a relationship. They only fool the woman into thinking there is more to it.


----------



## arbitrator

*Just please relay to the good Doctor that this Southern flatland boy just ain't into cuckolding! 

Never have been ~ never will be!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

ConanHub said:


> I wondered how long her affair lasted. Did she tell you how long her affair would last before starting it?
> 
> Your situation is definitely not covered in Harley's book or probably any book.
> 
> Don't think it is actually comparable to what has been advised in the OP.
> 
> Still have a twilight moment whenever I hear your story.
> 
> I don't think your niceness snapped your wife out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But had I not been nice we wouldn't be together now? 

She didn't tell me how long it would last it lasted about eight weeks I seem to recall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

RoseAglow said:


> The typical WW will resist a BH doing Plan A. In reality there aren't tons of BHs picking up the WW and carrying her over the threshold to their room strewn with roses, just as she is returning from her AP. That isn't how it plays out in reality.
> 
> In reality, she scuttles home and everyone in the house knows about it. A BH is encouraged to communicate but not be a ****. "Home from your nightly bang?" is not encouraged. "Neither I nor the kids appreciate what you're doing. You are destroying the family" works better, especially when a WW has to look at her kids and see their pain/disapproval.
> 
> That is why Exposure is a critical component. The WW goes along with the BH and the kids under duress. Her kids are angry with her. Her family thinks she is crazy. Her AP is flipping out because his wife knows and his mom came over screaming at him. Her options are limited. There is no where to hide, no way to explain that she and the BH just fell out of love and hey, look at this brand new guy who had nothing to do with her marital breakup!
> 
> 
> 
> The "tramp" is most certainly the prize. I think that is true for anyone trying to keep their family and marriage together after reconciliation, Plan A or Plan TAM. No one can successful reconcile if they view their WW as a Tramp. They can only successfully reconcile if they view their WW as someone worth loving, someone important to them. Even if a BS does a Plan TAM and divorces the WS, if they take them back, they are accepting the WS's actions in some form. Not approving- just accepting that they happened and moving on.
> 
> 
> 
> As for whether his Plan B has better effects? Truthfully, I am not sure if there is a "proven" method. I am not sure anyone can say for certain what works best. There are zero "Plan TAM" success stories on MB but anyone doing Plan TAM on MB would get banned, as they do not allow discussions/deviations from the MB plan. I don't think I've seen a single Plan B success story for a BH, I have seen them for BWs. I have seen BHs who do Plan A up to divorce, and then after divorce their WW comes back and they remarry. There are a fair number of failures on MB as well- especially among married with no kids.
> 
> There aren't all that many success stories on TAM, either, if the measure of success is Reconciliation. It's hard to get there after infidelity. MB says that there is a One Size Fits All. As you can see I have read a ton of MB and agree with Harley on many things- I disagree with the One Size Fits All, but I do agree that there is a good chance of success for many of those who can pull it off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A WW who begins to "wake up" and come out of the fog DOES appreciate her husband. What WW tend to say, after NC and the other MB Extraordinary Precautions, is that the WW are hugely grateful that their husbands fought for them, and they feel very lucky and fortunate and loved. It tends to be an easier transition than on TAM because MB has the BS and WS living together for as long as possible, so there often hasn't been an actual physical separation.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking for actual examples. Can we link to other competing websites on TAM? I can pull some threads from the MB website. They certainly exist. I can PM some to you if posting isn't allowed.
> 
> Some general examples of successful Plan As:
> 
> WW gets fired from her job due to exposure and no longer has easy access to AP. AP is in crisis mode because his wife was part of the exposure. AP throws WW under the bus. WW starts to wake up. She realizes that her best bet is with BH and agrees to NC and MB program.
> 
> Another typical Plan A success story occurs when a BH get can some dirt on the AP via a back-ground check. Finding out that one's AP has a history of child porn or domestic abuse can often (but sadly not always) wake a WW up.
> 
> I can think of three recent-ish times when a BH did a Plan A all the way up to divorce, and after divorce the WW wanted to come back. Two BH agreed and to my knowledge, have been successful as of recently, a few years down the line. One BH said No.
> 
> Remember that the over-arching goal of Plan A is to keep the WW nearby until the affair is killed. Plan B (and Plan TAM, as far as I can tell) is meant to protect the BS, which often means separating.
> 
> I can fully understand why people would choke on Plan A. BH have continued to Plan A even in the face of false charges, false restraining orders and other truly terrible, despicable behavior.
> 
> One of the more recent big Plan A successes occurred when a BS was forced into a mental hospitalization for a weekend. He continued to fight and was able to uncover that the AP was actually the one who caused him to be taken in. The WW also played a part but mostly unwittingly, she didn't realize what was happening. Once she realized what happened, she woke up. She left the AP and returned back to her BH.
> 
> That's the rub. There surely are successes. But you have to swallow a TON of horrible stuff to pull it off. You kind of have to look at the WS in a different light- that the WS is sick, or addicted, not him/herself. You can take a lot more abuse if you view the person doing it as sick. You don't take them seriously, anymore than you'd take the emotional rants of a drunk person seriously.
> 
> There are also some "successful" Plan As that have ended in divorce but with the husband having custody- two posters come to mind (one of them is the BH who declined to reconcile with this WW after divorce.) I think the BH's are OK with their outcomes.
> 
> Feel free to PM me if you want some links. It is midnight my time but I'll round some up for you tomorrow.


MB has an agenda. That is why I was asking if anyone had seen plan A in action regardless of results.

I highly doubt MB posts the stories of men committing suicide trying to implement Harley's ludicrous advice.

Many churches adopt his solutions as gospel.

I have personally known three men who have not survived his Goddamned plan A! One was a very close friend.

Yeah. Taking abuse while pouring out love for six months to a year! Fbcking brilliant!!!

Do you know how many people commit suicide because they can't take the pain of infidelity? 

This idiot proposes taking that abuse for six months to a year? Just swallow it and be nice to their WW while they keep stabbing them?

How many suicides does MB report?

Keep your links and tell me about someone you know or drop promoting MB.

I have known three men personally that have committed suicide while attempting plan A.

One was a very close friend. Another was a good friend. Another was a co-worker.

Shannon, Nick, Dean. I have faces and names. Stop promoting MB for plan A if you have no experience with anyone that has attempted it.

MB will never post the story of my dead friend. They have money to make.

MB has good marriage advice and terrible infidelity advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

larry.gray said:


> You have to clarify which part.
> 
> 
> 
> I fully concur if you're calling BS on the bolded part. It is impossible to divorce a cheating spouse too fast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this part is very accurate. Nearly all men are looking for a place to poke their pecker, not a relationship. They only fool the woman into thinking there is more to it.


You pretty much got it Larry. I've seen full spectrum though and women are just as easily given to lust and cake eating as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"She realizes that her best bet is with BH and agrees to NC and MB program."

Rose....but isn't this just a BH accepting that he is his WW's second choice because she has no other options?

Is that really 'saving' a M....or , for that matter, even a M worth saving?


----------



## NoChoice

I believe that this entire debate is centered on the definition of "recover". If a marriage can "recover" from infidelity does that mean to its previous state or to an evolved, improved state? If you allow the A to continue and your WW somehow decides to come back what have you "recovered"? A wife who now realizes that she can have A after A and that you will sit around meeting her other needs as she "wakes up"? I believe it is the purveyor of this advice that needs to wake up.

What manner of man (or woman for that matter) would want a marriage with a forecast of dense heavy fog, repeatedly?


----------



## arbitrator

MattMatt said:


> But had I not been nice we wouldn't be together now?
> 
> She didn't tell me how long it would last it lasted about eight weeks I seem to recall.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Not to worry! Let's just say that my extreme "niceness," nor even my total obliviousness to the fact of my RSXW's covert, out-of-town cheating, all behind my back, had any discernible bearing on the overall longevity of our relationship either!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Yes I won her back !! I won "sloppy seconds" YIPPEEEEE!!!!


----------



## Pluto2

Didn't our former TAM member SteveK, try the Plan A approach (I honestly think he tried everyone's approach to some extent) to end his wife's A with the travel agent. If memory serves, he had some issues with sufficient exposure until "someone else did it" (uh-huh). He lived in the house with his wife while she continued with the A, always promising to come back to him after her last trip with the AP. I believe it did not work. Am I remembering this correctly.


----------



## 3putt

Pluto2 said:


> Didn't our former TAM member SteveK, try the Plan A approach (I honestly think he tried everyone's approach to some extent) to end his wife's A with the travel agent. If memory serves, he had some issues with sufficient exposure until "someone else did it" (uh-huh). He lived in the house with his wife while she continued with the A, always promising to come back to him after her last trip with the AP. I believe it did not work. Am I remembering this correctly.


Divine intervention wouldn't have worked with SteveK. He couldn't stick to anything longer than a day or 2.


----------



## arbitrator

Horizon said:


> *Yes I won her back !! I won "sloppy seconds" YIPPEEEEE!!!*


*Horizon: Wish that I could bestow 10 "likes" on you for that line!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

RoseAglow said:


> The typical WW will resist a BH doing Plan A. In reality there aren't tons of BHs picking up the WW and carrying her over the threshold to their room strewn with roses, just as she is returning from her AP. That isn't how it plays out in reality.
> 
> In reality, she scuttles home and everyone in the house knows about it. A BH is encouraged to communicate but not be a ****. "Home from your nightly bang?" is not encouraged. "Neither I nor the kids appreciate what you're doing. You are destroying the family" works better, especially when a WW has to look at her kids and see their pain/disapproval.
> 
> That is why Exposure is a critical component. The WW goes along with the BH and the kids under duress. Her kids are angry with her. Her family thinks she is crazy. Her AP is flipping out because his wife knows and his mom came over screaming at him. Her options are limited. There is no where to hide, no way to explain that she and the BH just fell out of love and hey, look at this brand new guy who had nothing to do with her marital breakup!
> 
> 
> 
> The "tramp" is most certainly the prize. I think that is true for anyone trying to keep their family and marriage together after reconciliation, Plan A or Plan TAM. No one can successful reconcile if they view their WW as a Tramp. They can only successfully reconcile if they view their WW as someone worth loving, someone important to them. Even if a BS does a Plan TAM and divorces the WS, if they take them back, they are accepting the WS's actions in some form. Not approving- just accepting that they happened and moving on.
> 
> 
> 
> As for whether his Plan B has better effects? Truthfully, I am not sure if there is a "proven" method. I am not sure anyone can say for certain what works best. There are zero "Plan TAM" success stories on MB but anyone doing Plan TAM on MB would get banned, as they do not allow discussions/deviations from the MB plan. I don't think I've seen a single Plan B success story for a BH, I have seen them for BWs. I have seen BHs who do Plan A up to divorce, and then after divorce their WW comes back and they remarry. There are a fair number of failures on MB as well- especially among married with no kids.
> 
> There aren't all that many success stories on TAM, either, if the measure of success is Reconciliation. It's hard to get there after infidelity. MB says that there is a One Size Fits All. As you can see I have read a ton of MB and agree with Harley on many things- I disagree with the One Size Fits All, but I do agree that there is a good chance of success for many of those who can pull it off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A WW who begins to "wake up" and come out of the fog DOES appreciate her husband. What WW tend to say, after NC and the other MB Extraordinary Precautions, is that the WW are hugely grateful that their husbands fought for them, and they feel very lucky and fortunate and loved. It tends to be an easier transition than on TAM because MB has the BS and WS living together for as long as possible, so there often hasn't been an actual physical separation.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking for actual examples. Can we link to other competing websites on TAM? I can pull some threads from the MB website. They certainly exist. I can PM some to you if posting isn't allowed.
> 
> Some general examples of successful Plan As:
> 
> WW gets fired from her job due to exposure and no longer has easy access to AP. AP is in crisis mode because his wife was part of the exposure. AP throws WW under the bus. WW starts to wake up. She realizes that her best bet is with BH and agrees to NC and MB program.
> 
> Another typical Plan A success story occurs when a BH get can some dirt on the AP via a back-ground check. Finding out that one's AP has a history of child porn or domestic abuse can often (but sadly not always) wake a WW up.
> 
> I can think of three recent-ish times when a BH did a Plan A all the way up to divorce, and after divorce the WW wanted to come back. Two BH agreed and to my knowledge, have been successful as of recently, a few years down the line. One BH said No.
> 
> Remember that the over-arching goal of Plan A is to keep the WW nearby until the affair is killed. Plan B (and Plan TAM, as far as I can tell) is meant to protect the BS, which often means separating.
> 
> I can fully understand why people would choke on Plan A. BH have continued to Plan A even in the face of false charges, false restraining orders and other truly terrible, despicable behavior.
> 
> One of the more recent big Plan A successes occurred when a BS was forced into a mental hospitalization for a weekend. He continued to fight and was able to uncover that the AP was actually the one who caused him to be taken in. The WW also played a part but mostly unwittingly, she didn't realize what was happening. Once she realized what happened, she woke up. She left the AP and returned back to her BH.
> *
> That's the rub. There surely are successes. But you have to swallow a TON of horrible stuff to pull it off. You kind of have to look at the WS in a different light- that the WS is sick, or addicted, not him/herself. You can take a lot more abuse if you view the person doing it as sick. You don't take them seriously, anymore than you'd take the emotional rants of a drunk person seriously.*
> 
> There are also some "successful" Plan As that have ended in divorce but with the husband having custody- two posters come to mind (one of them is the BH who declined to reconcile with this WW after divorce.) I think the BH's are OK with their outcomes.
> 
> Feel free to PM me if you want some links. It is midnight my time but I'll round some up for you tomorrow.


Thanks for the thoughtful post. The bolded part says it all..swallowing a ton of crap to win back a cheater is not worth it. In the end when they come back you have 2-5 years of more suffering to look forward to. Cheaters are selfish, and destructive. They are the drunk drivers of relationships - they kill a family of 4 and often walk away unharmed. Really unfair.


----------



## EVG39

Today Harley's target audience is the evangelical Christian community. Plan A is exactly the kind of stuff that they would eat up because it plays right into what has become their belief system. That its nice to be nice to the nice. I have heard this same advice given multiple times in men's groups and recently I was taken to task by when I countered and advised a man to do a hard 180 with his fog bound wayward. I am thus not surprised that Harley has advised advanced doormating as a coping strategy, most all of these religious "experts" do. It sells. And I say this sadly as a Christian.
Secondly for a psychologist its pretty amazing that he doesn't seem to understand that if you reward bad behavior all you are going to get is more bad behavior. Any parent or any farmer knows that. Guess he was sick that year they studied behaviorism in shrink school.


----------



## Truthseeker1

EVG39 said:


> Today Harley's target audience is the evangelical Christian community. Plan A is exactly the kind of stuff that they would eat up because it plays right into what has become their belief system. That its nice to be nice to the nice. I have heard this same advice given multiple times in men's groups and recently I was taken to task by when I countered and advised a man to do a hard 180 with his fog bound wayward. I am thus not surprised that Harley has advised *advanced doormating as a coping strategy,* most all of these religious "experts" do. It sells. And I say this sadly as a Christian.
> Secondly for a psychologist its pretty amazing that he doesn't seem to understand that if you reward bad behavior all you are going to get is more bad behavior. Any parent or any farmer knows that. Guess he was sick that year they studied behaviorism in shrink school.


I love that term....advanced doormating..i watched one story where a ministers wife had an affair and got pregnant - when they went into therapy he said the therapist scolded him and told him he needed to be praying, doing this and that..the therapist might have been picking up his teeth if he treated me that way in those circumstances. What amazed me is the couple gives talks on this and the wife seems to have no shame repeatedly discussing how she had another man's child. It made me ill. That type of Christianity does not resonate with me.


----------



## naiveonedave

ConanHub said:


> MB has an agenda. That is why I was asking if anyone had seen plan A in action regardless of results.
> 
> I highly doubt MB posts the stories of men committing suicide trying to implement Harley's ludicrous advice.
> 
> Many churches adopt his solutions as gospel.
> 
> I have personally known three men who have not survived his Goddamned plan A! One was a very close friend.
> 
> Yeah. Taking abuse while pouring out love for six months to a year! Fbcking brilliant!!!
> 
> Do you know how many people commit suicide because they can't take the pain of infidelity?
> 
> This idiot proposes taking that abuse for six months to a year? Just swallow it and be nice to their WW while they keep stabbing them?
> 
> How many suicides does MB report?
> 
> Keep your links and tell me about someone you know or drop promoting MB.
> 
> I have known three men personally that have committed suicide while attempting plan A.
> 
> One was a very close friend. Another was a good friend. Another was a co-worker.
> 
> Shannon, Nick, Dean. I have faces and names. Stop promoting MB for plan A if you have no experience with anyone that has attempted it.
> 
> MB will never post the story of my dead friend. They have money to make.
> 
> MB has good marriage advice and terrible infidelity advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


wow, just fn wow. I am sorry you had to go through this.


----------



## naiveonedave

EVG39 said:


> Today Harley's target audience is the evangelical Christian community. Plan A is exactly the kind of stuff that they would eat up because it plays right into what has become their belief system. That its nice to be nice to the nice. I have heard this same advice given multiple times in men's groups and recently I was taken to task by when I countered and advised a man to do a hard 180 with his fog bound wayward. I am thus not surprised that Harley has advised advanced doormating as a coping strategy, most all of these religious "experts" do. It sells. And I say this sadly as a Christian.
> Secondly for a psychologist its pretty amazing that he doesn't seem to understand that if you reward bad behavior all you are going to get is more bad behavior. Any parent or any farmer knows that. Guess he was sick that year they studied behaviorism in shrink school.


Which I find ironic, as the bible clearly spells out D is acceptable in the wake of infidelity.


----------



## dash74

Horizon said:


> Yes I won her back !! I won "sloppy seconds" YIPPEEEEE!!!!


I found MB's plan a motivational poster


----------



## dash74

Truthseeker1 said:


> Cheaters are selfish, and destructive. They are the drunk drivers of relationships - they kill a family of 4 and often walk away unharmed. Really unfair.


Brilliant, the best explanation of cheating in a marriage I have ever seen


----------



## drifting on

Posted by MattMatt --Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he?


Yes he can! On a prescription pad he can write, BREAKFAST IN BED FOR THE WS!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

dash74 said:


> I found MB's plan a motivational poster


*"Yeah! But it's probably somebody else's, you cheating skank!

Sorry, but no oral on you tonight, honey!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

dash74 said:


> Brilliant, the best explanation of cheating in a marriage I have ever seen


Thanks...it is what they are even the remorseful ones - reckless with other peoples lives...


----------



## arbitrator

Truthseeker1 said:


> I love that term....advanced doormating..i watched one story where a ministers wife had an affair and got pregnant - when they went into therapy he said the therapist scolded him and told him he needed to be praying, doing this and that..the therapist might have been picking up his teeth if he treated me that way in those circumstances. What amazed me is the couple gives talks on this and the wife seems to have no shame repeatedly discussing how she had another man's child. It made me ill. *That type of Christianity does not resonate with me.*


*And if you're, in any way, implying the universal Christian principle of "turning the other cheek," the only cheek that the good Doctor is advocating being turned is strictly that of the wayward's; greatly in the general direction of their affair partner's genitalia! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

naiveonedave said:


> wow, just fn wow. I am sorry you had to go through this.


Thank you. I am actually guilty, at least partially, for promoting plan A when my close friend was going through hell.

I still feel like his blood is on my hands.

I was new in the church and mindlessly promoted plan A to more than one hurting husband.

After all, the elders knew best, right? Dr. Harley was the expert and wouldn't give bad advice, right?

Even after my friend took his life, I still didn't change my tune. I committed the sin of having faith in men. I promoted this horse shyt like it was gospel.
Near the end, my friend was very bitter and said negative things about women to me because this program treats them like children who aren't responsible.

Harley's infidelity program treats the victim like they did something wrong to cause the infidelity. Harley doesn't think people cheat unless they are not getting something from their partner.

My research indicates that is only a portion of cheaters and you have to have the predisposition to believe cheating is an option to begin with.

Many people don't cheat under the same circumstances. I have seen far better results by ignoring plan A and doing some form of plan B along with exposure of course.

Years after my friend took his life, I had another good friend betrayed by a cheating wife. He got no good counsel and no one would give him more than a passing bible verse or two and tell him to pray.

He called me last because he was afraid I might say told you so. I had seen warning signs in his marriage and told him we needed to talk.
He ignored my advice and a few months later was D-day.

After exposure, he really didn't have a lot of help dealing with his grief and pain. I asked him what he wanted and what he thought God wanted.

He told me I was the only person to ask him and that he wanted to try and restore his marriage. I went through hell with him and we did our own plan.

Within two months, without my friend being a punching bag, she decided to reconcile. They are now one of the most successful couples I know and counsel others.

She became a different person and if you asked her about her infidelity, she would look you in the eye and tell you she was a wh0re.
She isn't one anymore. She is one of the most beautiful and confident women I know. An amazing wife and mother.

I have rambled enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RWB

3putt said:


> He means that if after 6 months to *2 years (the extreme) *he would recommend filing as it's a lost cause and not worth any more effort.


First, R with a WS even when they immediately are remorseful, beg for mercy, transparent, and 100% NC is taxing, mind numbing, wrought with anxiety, *just Damn Hard*. l'm 6 years out from DD... All better now? Ask anyone on the other side of R, it never really goes away.

But 2 years? Please... I think my total wait time was more like 20 seconds.


----------



## TRy

Pluto2 said:


> Plan A is the worst advice I've ever heard of for stopping an A. The BS has already had to suffer the humiliation and degredation of being cheated on, and then you're supposed to kiss a** for the privilege of getting the cheater back. No.


 The worst part of the 6 moths to 2 years of Plan A for men, is that since Plan A includes exposure, all of your family, friends and co-workers will lose respect for you as they watch you kiss the cheaters rear as they cheat and continue to humiliate you. How do you ever get the respect of any of them back after that? For the rest of your life that will be part of your story in their minds. That will always be an important part of the story of your marriage. It will be part of how you will be defined. Worse yet, what type of person does it take to continue to cheat for 6 months to 2 years after exposure knowing the humiliation they are causing their spouse the entire time? Why would anyone want win back such a person (if you call Plan B winning)?


----------



## dash74

arbitrator said:


> *And if you're, in any way, implying the universal Christian principle of "turning the other cheek," the only cheek that the good Doctor is advocating being turned is strictly that of the wayward's; greatly in the general direction of their affair partner's genitalia! *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand forgiveness I believe in it but to turn I blind eye in the face of continuing immorality and most grievous treachery is shurely a bigger sin because you normalize it and except it by passivity


----------



## arbitrator

dash74 said:


> I understand forgiveness I believe in it but to turn I blind eye in the face of continuing immorality and most grievous treachery is shurely a bigger sin because you normalize it and except it by passivity


*Forgiveness is universal by Godly decree; how can we expect to be forgiven of our earthly transgressions if we don't try to extend forgivenesses ourselves?

But forgetting about what atrocities have occurred to us is strictly God's business! After all, as humans, we should always try to remember the negative things of the past, only from the perspective that in doing so, we may not try to consciously recommit them in the future!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

arbitrator said:


> *Forgiveness is universal by Godly decree; how can we expect to be forgiven of our earthly transgressions if we don't try to extend forgivenesses ourselves?
> 
> But forgetting about what had occurred to us is strictly God's business! After all, as humans, we should always try to remember the negative things of the past, so that we may not try to recommit them in the future!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also forgiveness is for the betrayed more than anyone else. To evict the miserable cheater from the place they are occupying in your mind. Also forgiving does not mean reconciliation and under Harley's approach how can you ever love or respect a spouse again after they continued to [email protected]#$ someone else while you try to get them back. It's best to return damaged goods to the store and leave them there.


----------



## naiveonedave

ConanHub said:


> Thank you. I am actually guilty, at least partially, for promoting plan A when my close friend was going through hell.
> 
> I still feel like his blood is on my hands.
> 
> I was new in the church and mindlessly promoted plan A to more than one hurting husband.
> 
> After all, the elders knew best, right? Dr. Harley was the expert and wouldn't give bad advice, right?
> 
> Even after my friend took his life, I still didn't change my tune. I committed the sin of having faith in men. I promoted this horse shyt like it was gospel.
> Near the end, my friend was very bitter and said negative things about women to me because this program treats them like children who aren't responsible.
> 
> Harley's infidelity program treats the victim like they did something wrong to cause the infidelity. Harley doesn't think people cheat unless they are not getting something from their partner.
> 
> My research indicates that is only a portion of cheaters and you have to have the predisposition to believe cheating is an option to begin with.
> 
> Many people don't cheat under the same circumstances. I have seen far better results by ignoring plan A and doing some form of plan B along with exposure of course.
> 
> Years after my friend took his life, I had another good friend betrayed by a cheating wife. He got no good counsel and no one would give him more than a passing bible verse or two and tell him to pray.
> 
> He called me last because he was afraid I might say told you so. I had seen warning signs in his marriage and told him we needed to talk.
> He ignored my advice and a few months later was D-day.
> 
> After exposure, he really didn't have a lot of help dealing with his grief and pain. I asked him what he wanted and what he thought God wanted.
> 
> He told me I was the only person to ask him and that he wanted to try and restore his marriage. I went through hell with him and we did our own plan.
> 
> Within two months, without my friend being a punching bag, she decided to reconcile. They are now one of the most successful couples I know and counsel others.
> 
> She became a different person and if you asked her about her infidelity, she would look you in the eye and tell you she was a wh0re.
> She isn't one anymore. She is one of the most beautiful and confident women I know. An amazing wife and mother.
> 
> I have rambled enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks for the post. It is incredible what infidelity has done to you. Again, my condolences for your friends.


----------



## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> Thank you. I am actually guilty, at least partially, for promoting plan A when my close friend was going through hell.
> 
> I still feel like his blood is on my hands.
> 
> I was new in the church and mindlessly promoted plan A to more than one hurting husband.
> 
> After all, the elders knew best, right? Dr. Harley was the expert and wouldn't give bad advice, right?
> 
> Even after my friend took his life, I still didn't change my tune. I committed the sin of having faith in men. I promoted this horse shyt like it was gospel.
> Near the end, my friend was very bitter and said negative things about women to me because this program treats them like children who aren't responsible.
> 
> Harley's infidelity program treats the victim like they did something wrong to cause the infidelity. Harley doesn't think people cheat unless they are not getting something from their partner.
> 
> My research indicates that is only a portion of cheaters and you have to have the predisposition to believe cheating is an option to begin with.
> 
> Many people don't cheat under the same circumstances. I have seen far better results by ignoring plan A and doing some form of plan B along with exposure of course.
> 
> Years after my friend took his life, I had another good friend betrayed by a cheating wife. He got no good counsel and no one would give him more than a passing bible verse or two and tell him to pray.
> 
> He called me last because he was afraid I might say told you so. I had seen warning signs in his marriage and told him we needed to talk.
> He ignored my advice and a few months later was D-day.
> 
> After exposure, he really didn't have a lot of help dealing with his grief and pain. I asked him what he wanted and what he thought God wanted.
> 
> He told me I was the only person to ask him and that he wanted to try and restore his marriage. I went through hell with him and we did our own plan.
> 
> Within two months, without my friend being a punching bag, she decided to reconcile. They are now one of the most successful couples I know and counsel others.
> 
> She became a different person and if you asked her about her infidelity, she would look you in the eye and tell you she was a wh0re.
> She isn't one anymore. She is one of the most beautiful and confident women I know. An amazing wife and mother.
> 
> I have rambled enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As good as she may be now - she still left your friend with lifelong scars - that she can not undo. He will never forget.


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> I just couldn't see that kind of power imbalance working out long-term you know? I mean I don't think I'd respect my wife as much if she let me screw another woman for six months and then come back to open arms and have her be willing to work on the marriage.


I do wonder what the long term success is, and how happy those marriages are.


----------



## commonsenseisn't

I'll bet Dr. Harley has never experienced being a cuckold.


----------



## arbitrator

commonsenseisn't said:


> I'll bet Dr. Harley has never experienced being a cuckold.


*Conversely, it really wouldn't surprise me to find out that he was a flag-waving, "card-carrying cuckold" of magnanimous proportions either!

After all, misery does love company!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

Thor said:


> I do wonder what the long term success is, and how happy those marriages are.


I also wonder how many BHs who do reconcile go on to cheat themselves - years later. I wonder if it weakens their guard against temptation and they figure WTF she did it.


----------



## arbitrator

Truthseeker1 said:


> I also wonder how many BHs who do reconcile go on to cheat themselves - years later. I wonder if it weakens their guard against temptation and they figure WTF she did it.


*That's a great point, Truth!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

arbitrator said:


> *That's a great point, Truth!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. i have no idea of the numbers but WS aren't the only ones who get bored or dissatisfied with their marriages. I wonder if years down the line the BH is bored, going through a crisis of some sort or just really turned on by a woman and he gives in since his wife has given in herself. It is easy to see how the BS can rationalize a little of their own enjoyment on the side. I also wonder how former cheating wives would deal with that blow to their already big egos. My hunch is not good.


----------



## ConanHub

Truthseeker1 said:


> I also wonder how many BHs who do reconcile go on to cheat themselves - years later. I wonder if it weakens their guard against temptation and they figure WTF she did it.


I've seen this happen or nearly more than once.

The reconciliation I spoke of was nothing short of miraculous and my friend does not seem scarred. They both are empowered. I made them face the ugliness full on, address it and destroy it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

My friend did have a moment. He checked out a dating site about 2 years into R.

He didn't pursue and confessed.

She was very hurt and said she deserved it but it didn't help anyone recover.

He said he just wanted to see if women were attracted to him.

His self esteem and confidence took a hit.

It has been about 6 years into R and they are doing extremely well.


----------



## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> *I've seen this happen or nearly more than once.
> *
> The reconciliation I spoke of was nothing short of miraculous and my friend does not seem scarred. They both are empowered. I made them face the ugliness full on, address it and destroy it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That does not surprise me. I would imagine ones guard against temptation is weakened and if some opportunity comes along it is easy to rationalize giving in.

As to your friend he does not SEEM scarred but I guarantee you they are there. I'm glad she changed but she can not undo the damage.


----------



## BetrayedDad

ConanHub said:


> I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.
> 
> I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.
> 
> Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically.
> 
> I think this is possibly the most idiotic idea I have ever heard but I am open minded.
> 
> Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?
> 
> What were the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If someone is really going to offer up such horrible advise why not do one better?

Just found out the wife's cheating? Find yourself some babe to screw. Devote all your energy in supporting OW in every way, financially, emotionally and physically. Continue to have all the sex you want for six months to a year while your wife is cheating on you with her OM. When wife eventually gets dumped, she can now start to compete with OW for YOUR affection to win you back. 

Sounds like a much better plan to me. At least you keep your dignity.


----------



## soccermom2three

My BIL did a variation of Plan A for over two years. This is what his therapist advised. He did not expose though. The therapist was against it. So in that two years an EA went to a PA to her moving out to her own apartment. My husband and I kept telling him that he needed to call the OM's wife but he wouldn't go against his therapists advice. I wonder if he had exposed early on if my SIL would have woken up and my BIL wouldn't have been tortured for two years.

Within 2 months of doing Plan B, she wanted to work on the marriage and move back in.


----------



## Truthseeker1

soccermom2three said:


> My BIL did a variation of Plan A for over two years. This is what his therapist advised. He did not expose though. The therapist was against it. So in that two years an EA went to a PA to her moving out to her own apartment. My husband and I kept telling him that he needed to call the OM's wife but he wouldn't go against his therapists advice. I wonder if he had exposed early on if my SIL would have woken up and my BIL wouldn't have been tortured for two years.
> 
> Within 2 months of doing Plan B, she wanted to work on the marriage and move back in.


Wow 2 years and he still took her back..is he happy now?


----------



## ConanHub

soccermom2three said:


> My BIL did a variation of Plan A for over two years. This is what his therapist advised. He did not expose though. The therapist was against it. So in that two years an EA went to a PA to her moving out to her own apartment. My husband and I kept telling him that he needed to call the OM's wife but he wouldn't go against his therapists advice. I wonder if he had exposed early on if my SIL would have woken up and my BIL wouldn't have been tortured for two years.
> 
> Within 2 months of doing Plan B, she wanted to work on the marriage and move back in.


That is just it. Doing plan B if the WS won't immediately cut off the affair works well. There is really no need to continue meeting a WSs needs while they are still cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Even Harley agrees with exposure.


----------



## GusPolinski

First, since Mach isn't here to do it, I'll point out that what Dr. Harley seems to endorse is the idea that a BH desperate to save his marriage despite his WW's affair should become a wittol, which -- _technically_ speaking -- is not quite the same as a cuckold. So yes, @RoseAglow, you're correct there.

Second, for a BH to continue wining and dining his WW, taking her on family vacations, posting pics of her, himself, and the kids on social media as if they were one big, happy family, and all while EVERYONE in their circle has already been made fully aware of the affair? Sorry, but that amounts to nothing less than at least _tacit_ approval for her behavior in that no consequences have been offered for it.

Third, the whole "given enough time" notion is just bullsh*t. Given enough time, ANYTHING might happen, but a WW choosing to come back to her BH "after enough time" will (almost) always boil down to little more than the WW coming back to _her_ "Plan B". And for a man w/ even the scantest amount of self-respect, the sacrifice just won't be worth it.

Now... as for these "success stories"...

OF COURSE these poor bastards are going to claim success. THEY HAVE TO CLAIM SUCCESS. Having paid such a heavy price to achieve their stated goal, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE that they can say and still live w/ themselves.

Look, I'm all for reconciliation, but only when both humility and remorse (or at least the _beginnings_ of remorse) are seen FROM THE START, along w/ a commitment from the WS w/ respect to NC.


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> First, since Mach isn't here to do it, I'll point out that what Dr. Harley seems to endorse is the idea that a BH desperate to save his marriage despite his WW's affair should become a wittol, which -- _technically_ speaking -- is not quite the same as a cuckold. So yes, @RoseAglow, you're correct there.
> 
> Second, for a BH to continue wining and dining his WW, taking her on family vacations, posting pics of her, himself, and the kids on social media as if they were one big, happy family, and all while EVERYONE in their circle has already been made fully aware of the affair? Sorry, but that amounts to nothing less than at least _tacit_ approval for her behavior in that no consequences have been offered for it.
> 
> Third, the whole "given enough time" notion is just bullsh*t. Given enough time, ANYTHING might happen, but a WW choosing to come back to her BH "after enough time" will (almost) always boil down to little more than the WW coming back to _her_ "Plan B". And for a man w/ even the scantest amount of self-respect, the sacrifice just won't be worth it.
> 
> Now... as for these "success stories"...
> 
> *OF COURSE these poor bastards are going to claim success. THEY HAVE TO CLAIM SUCCESS. Having paid such a heavy price to achieve their stated goal, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE that they can say and still live w/ themselves*.
> 
> :iagree::iagree::iagree: BINGO!!! If you have been eating a sh!t sandwich for 2 years - you have to convince yourself and everyone else it was worth it.
> 
> *Look, I'm all for reconciliation, but only when both humility and remorse (or at least the beginnings of remorse) are seen FROM THE START, along w/ a commitment from the WS w/ respect to NC.*


Once again :iagree::iagree::iagree: even with remorse the damage can never be fully undone - but waiting for up to two years for the WW to stop [email protected]#$%^& her lover seems insane to me.


----------



## soccermom2three

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow 2 years and he still took her back..is he happy now?



No actually he has really detached from her and she didn't want to do the hard work to get him back. She's really good at "darvo-ing" but he recognizes it now and just laughs. She cannot ever admit that she's wrong. God forbid she looks less than perfect. She moved out again last April. I think it's a standoff on who is going to file for divorce. I don't think she wants to because it would be her 2nd failed marriage and she would look like the bad guy.


----------



## ConanHub

I guess there isn't anyone here who has personal knowledge of a plan A attempt by men.

I, for obvious reasons, think it is crap but at least I have seen real life examples.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Not excluding Soccermom. Her story wasn't the implementation of a full plan A. Close though.


----------



## Truthseeker1

soccermom2three said:


> No actually has really detached from her and she didn't want to do the hard work to get him back. She's really good at "darvo-ing" but he recognizes it now and just laughs. She cannot ever admit that she's wrong. God forbid she looks less than perfect. She moved out again last April. I think it's a standoff on who is going to file for divorce. I don't she wants to because it would be her 2nd failed marriage and she would look like the bad guy.


From what you describe total exposure would have been more potent than a RA in dealing with your SIL. That would have devastated her. He should have listened to you and your husband.


----------



## truster

Stuff like this really makes me question how much therapy is based in legitimate science, and how much is just winging it from a position of authority with ideas that seem plausible in a certain light. I feel like my STBXW got *worse* after starting IC.. more selfish, more blaming, and obviously more cheating. I don't know if it's because of her therapist's angle -- whether she doesn't challenge her bad behavior, but instead focuses on her 'self confidence', or something like that. Or it could just be that the therapist-patient relationship is inherently biased when the patient dictates the information that the therapist hears.. I'm sure all of her stories have her as the hero or the victim, without any contradictory information.


----------



## truster

soccermom2three said:


> No actually has really detached from her and she didn't want to do the hard work to get him back. She's really good at "darvo-ing" but he recognizes it now and just laughs. She cannot ever admit that she's wrong. God forbid she looks less than perfect. She moved out again last April. I think it's a standoff on who is going to file for divorce. I don't she wants to because it would be her 2nd failed marriage and she would look like the bad guy.


DARVO-ing.. that's a useful term I didn't know. Now I'm down a Google rabbit hole with that and Persuasive Blamers.. it all sounds so familiar to my current situation


----------



## Dyokemm

Truthseeker1 said:


> I also wonder how many BHs who do reconcile go on to cheat themselves - years later. I wonder if it weakens their guard against temptation and they figure WTF she did it.


Good insight.....and based on the number of threads over the years where a BH finds out that the POSOM in his M was a BH himself years before, I think it is unfortunately all too common.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> Good insight.....and based on the number of threads over the years where a BH finds out that the POSOM in his M was a BH himself years before, I think it is unfortunately all too common.


Thanks.I admit I have not seen any studies on the topic but it makes sense that a WW will lower a man's guard when something tempting comes along. with a loyal faithful wife at home some men cheat but with one who has slept around it seems to me the perfect rationalization to take that new woman up on her offer of some "fun".


----------



## Dyokemm

Truthseeker1 said:


> Thanks.I admit I have not seen any studies on the topic but it makes sense that a WW will lower a man's guard when something tempting comes along. with a loyal faithful wife at home some men cheat but with one who has slept around it seems to me the perfect rationalization to take that new woman up on her offer of some "fun".


Yeah.....but it is pretty f*cking low IMO.

I have a particular distaste for POSOM's who are former BH's themselves.

They KNOW what the pain and anguish are, but don't hesitate to inflict them on some other guy who has done nothing to them.

If they felt entitled to step out on their traitorous fWW's....well at least they could do it with a single woman....or their own POSOM's BW.

Why they choose to screw over guys who had done them no wrong when they know the heartbreak it causes?....I'll never understand that.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> Yeah.....but it is pretty f*cking low IMO.
> 
> I have a particular distaste for POSOM's who are former BH's themselves.
> 
> They KNOW what the pain and anguish are, but don't hesitate to inflict them on some other guy who has done nothing to them.
> 
> If they felt entitled to step out on their traitorous fWW's....well at least they could do it with a single woman....or their own POSOM's BW.
> 
> Why they choose to screw over guys who had done them no wrong when they know the heartbreak it causes?....I'll never understand that.


Agree 110%. I have no sympathy for a cheater who gets cheated on but why screw over another married man. Another question I have is how forgiving these WWs are when they get a dose of their own medicine.


----------



## Marduk

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'd take my new girlfriend on vacations and post THOSE pics on Facebook. As I said, she would be welcome to compete. Of course for me divorce would be plan a.


This was my buddy's response to discovering his best friend was screwing his wife.

Within 2 weeks his house was for sale, a separation agreement was in place, and custody of the kids agreed to.

He leveraged her fog to get this done FAST.

The day it was done was the day he was on a plane with his new sexy girlfriend to Maui. And his wife had the balls to come over to our house complaining that he was moving on so fast and not giving their marriage a chance... and what about the kids!

A few years later everything's coming up roses for him, he's started a new company, has a great live in GF and is a great dad to his kids. His wife still struggles of course...

Especially after my buddy told his best friend's wife the whole story and the guy went crawling back to his wife.


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> This was my buddy's response to discovering his best friend was screwing his wife.
> 
> Within 2 weeks his house was for sale, a separation agreement was in place, and custody of the kids agreed to.
> 
> *He leveraged her fog to get this done FAST.
> *
> The day it was done was the day he was on a plane with his new sexy girlfriend to Maui. And his wife had the balls to come over to our house complaining that he was moving on so fast and not giving their marriage a chance... and what about the kids!
> 
> A few years later everything's coming up roses for him, he's started a new company, has a great live in GF and is a great dad to his kids. His wife still struggles of course...
> 
> Especially after my buddy told his best friend's wife the whole story and the guy went crawling back to his wife.


That is a brilliant strategy. Before they exit the fog take them for as much as you can. your friend has a good head on his shoulders. >


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> This was my buddy's response to discovering his best friend was screwing his wife.
> 
> Within 2 weeks his house was for sale, a separation agreement was in place, and custody of the kids agreed to.
> 
> He leveraged her fog to get this done FAST.
> 
> The day it was done was the day he was on a plane with his new sexy girlfriend to Maui. And his wife had the balls to come over to our house complaining that he was moving on so fast and not giving their marriage a chance... and what about the kids!
> 
> A few years later everything's coming up roses for him, he's started a new company, has a great live in GF and is a great dad to his kids. His wife still struggles of course...
> 
> Especially after my buddy told his best friend's wife the whole story and the guy went crawling back to his wife.


Like a boss.


----------



## arbitrator

*My God in Heaven! What some people won't do to get themselves just a sniff and a taste of a "little strange!" I guess that the grass is far greener over in the neighbor's pasture!

It's absolutely mind-boggling!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

arbitrator said:


> *My God in Heaven! What some people won't do to get them a taste of a "little strange!" I guess that the grass is far greener over in the neighbor's pasture!
> 
> It's absolutely mind-boggling!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No shame - no concern for others - nothing - and LTAs that go on for a year of more are the worst - can you imagine a spouse cheating for 2 years, 5 years or more and then tell you i'm so sorry can we reconcile? Umm you were screwing someone else for YEARS - what you don't want is the consequences - you did want the strange. 

The part that is hysterical but understandable is when they tell you well sex wasn't that great - well why did you keep doing it for YEARS. They enjoyed it all but don't want to pay the bill that is coming due.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is a brilliant strategy. Before they exit the fog take them for as much as you can. your friend has a good head on his shoulders. >


The key thing for him was that he made a decision instantly when he found out that they were done.

No ifs, buts, or maybes. He just made the call and executed it. With a focus on being able to provide for his kids because his fruitcake wife wasn't thinking about them at all.

Then, before he could get all weepy about it, he hooked up instantly. He said something to the effect of "it's amazing that a guy in his late 30s can get a hot 20 something gf to go to hawaii for a week of non-stop sex when you're footing the bill."

That way, he had an instant rebound relationship to clear his head. He didn't intend on exacting revenge on his wife, he did it for himself.

Then he came back and started a new business and kicked ass at it...

And it was all his.


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> The key thing for him was that he made a decision instantly when he found out that they were done.
> 
> No ifs, buts, or maybes. He just made the call and executed it. With a focus on being able to provide for his kids because his fruitcake wife wasn't thinking about them at all.
> 
> Then, before he could get all weepy about it, he hooked up instantly. He said something to the effect of "it's amazing that a guy in his late 30s can get a hot 20 something gf to go to hawaii for a week of non-stop sex when you're footing the bill."
> 
> That way, he had an instant rebound relationship to clear his head. He didn't intend on exacting revenge on his wife, he did it for himself.
> 
> Then he came back and started a new business and kicked ass at it...
> 
> And it was all his.


does his wife still try to reconcile? or is she resigned to whining about how bad her life is?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I think people need to understand that Dr. H is for people who want to continue to be married to their WW. They don't want a divorce, they don't want revenge, they want to reconcile. 

You can't just do half his plan either. 

If you work to end the affair but are being a horrible person and love busting and basically just sitting around calling them a ***** and pouting, it's not going to make anyone want to be with you. 

If you just be nice and happy but don't do anything to actually stop the affair and make clear boundaries about how the relationship will be from now on, you're going to end up walked on.

Both parts are important and it's just as important to keep up the plan A and stopping love busters along with continuing the boundaries and policies forever. If you just play the good guy to get them back and stop once the affair is, the relationship itself isn't going to be repaired. 

There is success for couples but he/they are just as likely to tell you to jump ship if you or your spouse just isn't going to reconcile and build a better marriage.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> does his wife still try to reconcile? or is she resigned to whining about how bad her life is?


We pretty much stopped speaking when my wife's response to her was "maybe you shouldn't have been ****ing his best friend."

But as far as I know, she isn't still trying to reconcile. I think she believed the other guy was going to dump his wife and support her, and that didn't work out.

So she went from having the emotional, financial, and sexual attention of two guys to zero guys.

It's sad, really.


----------



## CTPlay

TRy said:


> The worst part of the 6 moths to 2 years of Plan A for men, is that since Plan A includes exposure, all of your family, friends and co-workers will lose respect for you as they watch you kiss the cheaters rear as they cheat and continue to humiliate you. How do you ever get the respect of any of them back after that? For the rest of your life that will be part of your story in their minds. That will always be an important part of the story of your marriage. It will be part of how you will be defined. Worse yet, what type of person does it take to continue to cheat for 6 months to 2 years after exposure knowing the humiliation they are causing their spouse the entire time? Why would anyone want win back such a person (if you call Plan B winning)?


Hypothetically.

My son approaches me that his wife is cheating on him and he tells me about Plan A? 

Oh hell no. Is Plan A what you would prescribe to your child? 

Son, I love you, but you must suffer immeasurable pain to win back a person of zero scruples, for the slimmest of chances.


No.

My advice would be as follows. 

Son, we are behind you 100% no matter what. You tell your wife she is to leave the other man and work on the marriage (give her a chance). In the meantime while she decides, 

1) hire a lawyer, file for divorce
2) gather your support
3) get an IC
4) toss her out of the house.
5) tell EVERYBODY

YMMV


----------



## NoChoice

Am I to understand that this Dr. Harley is a proclaimer of the christian faith? I have done considerable research into various religions and I find this fascinating. Does not the Bible speak of turning away from sin? And is not adultery sin? So is not the good doctor advocating sin? Is that not the job of Satan? Does the Bible not also speak of a rapturing away of the believers? Would not someone actively engaged in an ongoing sinful A not be excluded from this event? Is he not suggesting that the BS take the chance that their WS would miss this event and be cast eternally into the lake of fire? I find this advice to fly in the face of the very religious teachings that he and the followers of his technique profess to believe.

The term Christian, as I understand it, means Christ like. I remember a single quote that seems applicable here "Go and sin no more". I see nothing Christian about this doctor or his advice.


----------



## CTPlay

ConanHub said:


> I've seen this happen or nearly more than once.
> 
> The reconciliation I spoke of was nothing short of miraculous and my friend does not seem scarred. They both are empowered. I made them face the ugliness full on, address it and destroy it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> My friend did have a moment. He checked out a dating site about 2 years into R.
> 
> He didn't pursue and confessed.
> 
> She was very hurt and said she deserved it but it didn't help anyone recover.
> 
> He said he just wanted to see if women were attracted to him.
> 
> His self esteem and confidence took a hit.
> 
> It has been about 6 years into R and they are doing extremely well.


My sincerest condolences to your friends.


----------



## 3putt

CTPlay said:


> Hypothetically.
> 
> My son approaches me that his wife is cheating on him and he tells me about Plan A?
> 
> Oh hell no. Is Plan A what you would prescribe to your child?
> 
> Son, I love you, but you must suffer immeasurable pain to win back a person of zero scruples, for the slimmest of chances.
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> My advice would be as follows.
> 
> Son, we are behind you 100% no matter what. You tell your wife she is to leave the other man and work on the marriage (give her a chance). In the meantime while she decides,
> 
> 1) hire a lawyer, file for divorce
> 2) gather your support
> 3) get an IC
> 4) toss her out of the house.
> 5) tell EVERYBODY
> 
> YMMV


I would definitely move #5 to #1. You do that, and do it right (full nuclear), then there just might not be an immediate need to do the rest.


----------



## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> I've seen this happen or nearly more than once.
> 
> The reconciliation I spoke of was nothing short of miraculous and my friend does not seem scarred. They both are empowered. I made them face the ugliness full on, address it and destroy it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> *My friend did have a moment. He checked out a dating site about 2 years into R.
> 
> He didn't pursue and confessed.
> 
> She was very hurt and said she deserved it but it didn't help anyone recover.
> 
> He said he just wanted to see if women were attracted to him.
> 
> His self esteem and confidence took a hit.
> *
> It has been about 6 years into R and they are doing extremely well.


I wonder if he did follow through how forgiving she would have been with the shoe on the other foot.


----------



## Fozzy

marduk said:


> This was my buddy's response to discovering his best friend was screwing his wife.
> 
> Within 2 weeks his house was for sale, a separation agreement was in place, and custody of the kids agreed to.
> 
> He leveraged her fog to get this done FAST.
> 
> The day it was done was the day he was on a plane with his new sexy girlfriend to Maui. And his wife had the balls to come over to our house complaining that he was moving on so fast and not giving their marriage a chance... and what about the kids!
> 
> A few years later everything's coming up roses for him, he's started a new company, has a great live in GF and is a great dad to his kids. His wife still struggles of course...
> 
> Especially after my buddy told his best friend's wife the whole story and the guy went crawling back to his wife.


The story is sad, but the justice is so sweet.


----------



## hookares

"Dr." Harley is merely stating what has been working for HIM.
If anybody is paying him for his advice, they are getting taken for a ride.


----------



## ConanHub

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think people need to understand that Dr. H is for people who want to continue to be married to their WW. They don't want a divorce, they don't want revenge, they want to reconcile.
> 
> You can't just do half his plan either.
> 
> If you work to end the affair but are being a horrible person and love busting and basically just sitting around calling them a ***** and pouting, it's not going to make anyone want to be with you.
> 
> If you just be nice and happy but don't do anything to actually stop the affair and make clear boundaries about how the relationship will be from now on, you're going to end up walked on.
> 
> Both parts are important and it's just as important to keep up the plan A and stopping love busters along with continuing the boundaries and policies forever. If you just play the good guy to get them back and stop once the affair is, the relationship itself isn't going to be repaired.
> 
> There is success for couples but he/they are just as likely to tell you to jump ship if you or your spouse just isn't going to reconcile and build a better marriage.


Do you know anyone that has attempted plan A?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## antechomai

I cannot imagine a man having sex with his wife knowing she has a second guy (and no longer on the sly) at the same time. 

It would be "get away from me."


----------



## Fozzy

Seriously. Gross.


----------



## Thor

ConanHub said:


> I guess there isn't anyone here who has personal knowledge of a plan A attempt by men.
> 
> I, for obvious reasons, think it is crap but at least I have seen real life examples.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Not excluding Soccermom. Her story wasn't the implementation of a full plan A. Close though.


My dad tried Plan A. It didn't work. But it did leave him miserable.


----------



## ConanHub

Thor said:


> My dad tried Plan A. It didn't work. But it did leave him miserable.


Sorry to hear. Do you recall how it went down?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

ConanHub said:


> Sorry to hear. Do you recall how it went down?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He did a lot of pleading, crying, begging. Even in public. He told her he wanted her to stay. He said he was willing to work things out. Basically he prostrated himself trying to Nice her back.

He also did expose her. But she had already decided to leave permanently.

He was a Nice Guy who got chewed up and spit out by Plan A.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Thor said:


> He did a lot of pleading, crying, begging. Even in public. He told her he wanted her to stay. He said he was willing to work things out. Basically he prostrated himself trying to Nice her back.
> 
> He also did expose her. But she had already decided to leave permanently.
> 
> He was a Nice Guy who got chewed up and spit out by Plan A.


But crying, begging and pleading isn't Plan A and would pretty much be against the whole being calm and stop love busters part of it.

"The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" by Pepperband

THE CARROT OF PLAN A:

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



THE STICK OF PLAN A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Allowing the consequences of adultery and infidelity to fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to affect children of the marriage or the financial security of the marriage, or otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slain for the good of the family. 

A lot of the posters who have used MB and recovered still post there. 
I have used MB plan with success as well. 

It's not for everyone, but I don't see what is wrong with him offering it as a method. It's not like anyone has to try it if they don't want to. 
180 may be better for moving on and divorcing with less trauma to yourself but as a stop the affair and repair the relationship plan, I'd go with MB


----------



## CTPlay

Yes. I did Plan A. 

I didn't know it at the time. When I found out about the affair I tried to be a good and attentive husband. I changed myself and did alot of self reflecting in terms of how I treated her compared to the past. We went out alot more, dates, movies, I even hired a babysitter. But the agreement was during this time we would repair our relationship and she would not see or communicate him.

I don't recall off hand how long this went on, maybe a month? But she broke our agreement repeatedly. Eventually I got sick and tired of it and booted her out of the house and came to TAM in April.

That was the most useless ****ing time in my entire life. Go look back on my threads on how I lament not ending it sooner. 

In my situation, all that happened was that she got the best of both worlds while I just got worse and worse. It's like giving an alcoholic the keys to a liquor store and hope he gets sick of drinking. 

If anyone is considering Plan A, ask me questions. I will try and answer them as objectively as possible.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A lot of the posters who have used MB and recovered still post there.
> *I have used MB plan with success as well. *
> 
> It's not for everyone, but I don't see what is wrong with him offering it as a method. It's not like anyone has to try it if they don't want to.
> 180 may be better for moving on and divorcing with less trauma to yourself but as a stop the affair and repair the relationship plan, I'd go with MB


Respectfully, I can _sort of_ see how MB makes sense for BWs. Well... some of them, anyway.

And if the two-week recommendation was given to BHs as well as BWs, I could _maybe_ get behind it. Not in all cases, mind you, but at least some.

But six months? A year?

LOL. No.


----------



## carmen ohio

NoChoice said:


> Am I to understand that this Dr. Harley is a proclaimer of the christian faith? I have done considerable research into various religions and I find this fascinating. Does not the Bible speak of turning away from sin? And is not adultery sin? So is not the good doctor advocating sin? Is that not the job of Satan? Does the Bible not also speak of a rapturing away of the believers? Would not someone actively engaged in an ongoing sinful A not be excluded from this event? Is he not suggesting that the BS take the chance that their WS would miss this event and be cast eternally into the lake of fire? I find this advice to fly in the face of the very religious teachings that he and the followers of his technique profess to believe.
> 
> The term Christian, as I understand it, means Christ like. I remember a single quote that seems applicable here "Go and sin no more". I see nothing Christian about this doctor or his advice.


NoChoice,

One of the most important messages of the Gospel (some Christians would say the most important message) is that, just as God forgives those who are not worthy of forgivness (see, e.g., _"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."_ (Romans 5:8 NIV)), as Christians, we should forgive others. The most often recited expression of this Christian obligation is in the Lord's Prayer: _"__And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."_ (Matthew 6:12 KJV). Jesus explained the meaning of these words in starkly (perhaps even frighteningly) clear words: _"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."_ (Matthew 6:15-16 NIV).

Forgiving those who not deserve it is one of the most difficult things a person can do and, sadly, Christians for the most part seem little better at it than everybody else. But the message is there, in the New Testament, for anybody to read.

The apparent Christian obligation to forgive must be distinguished from Biblical injunctions to _"turn away from sin"_ as you put it (the line you quote, _"Go and sin no more,"_ is from John 8:11 and is apt as it specifically involves adultery). It is certainly true that the Bible repeatedly urges people not to sin and warns of the price of sin. But it is also clear that God, at least as described in the Bible, does not expect any of us to stop sinning entirely, even after we become one of his people. In the Hebrew Bible, this is evident from the fact that the people of Israel where instructed to make atoning sacrifices for their sins in order to win God's forgiveness. In the New Testament, the act of making sacrifices is replaced by what Catholics call the Eucharist and Protestants call Holy Communion. The bread and wine represent (Catholics believe they become) the body and blood of Christ, and serve to remind Christians of Jesus' crucifixion, the ultimate sacrifice that paved the way for our forgiveness. In any event, and fortunately, it is clear that God does not expect perfection from his people, settling instead for their love and devotion.

Although a Christian, and like most others here on TAM, I am of the view that infidelity justifies divorce, but there are many Christians who would disagree with this and the official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that divorce is not permitted (although, as a practical matter, the RCC lets it's members get out of their marriages all the time). But I must admit that, the act of divorce does seem at least somewhat antithetical to the obligation to forgive. If Dr. Harley is a Christian, this might explain why _Marriage Builders_ advises people to go to extraordinary lengths to preserve their marriages.


----------



## Dyokemm

"They don't want a divorce, they don't want revenge, they want to reconcile."

But this could be said as well of most of the posting BH's at TAM, SI, or even Loveshack.

The question is...at what cost do you want those things?

What really bother's me about MB Plan A is that it ignores the fact that it is possible to inflict tremendous emotional and mental damage on one's own self.

It seems soul-crushing and likely to inflict permanent damage on the self-esteem and overall mental health of the BH.

I believe very few men could ever look at themselves in the mirror with confidence and respect again after pursuing Plan A for any length of time.....and I would imagine they carry around a lot of guilt for failing to stand up for themselves as well.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Dyokemm said:


> "They don't want a divorce, they don't want revenge, they want to reconcile."
> 
> But this could be said as well of most of the posting BH's at TAM, SI, or even Loveshack.
> 
> The question is...at what cost do you want those things?
> 
> What really bother's me about MB Plan A is that it ignores the fact that it is possible to inflict tremendous emotional and mental damage on one's own self.
> 
> It seems soul-crushing and likely to inflict permanent damage on the self-esteem and overall mental health of the BH.
> 
> I believe very few men could ever look at themselves in the mirror with confidence and respect again after pursuing Plan A for any length of time.....and I would imagine they carry around a lot of guilt for failing to stand up for themselves as well.


He actually talks a lot about the consequences of Plan A. Even long term medical issues that can happen from dealing with the stress of it. Plan B is exactly for that, protection from the destruction and making sure you keep yourself safe. 

But it's only "not standing up for yourself" if you don't do the stick part of the plan at the same time. 

It's basically- be the man she fell in love with and wanted to marry however many years ago, but also demand that the affair end and expose it and make your WS see the truth behind what the reality of the affair is and see you for who you are- the man she wanted to spend the rest of her life with and raise children with. 

If he just wants to yell at her and call her a wh*re and start a war at every turn, it might make him feel better but it's not going to save his marriage.


----------



## GusPolinski

carmen ohio said:


> Although a Christian, and like most others here on TAM, I am of the view that infidelity justifies divorce...


Jesus agrees w/ you.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He actually talks a lot about the consequences of Plan A. Even long term medical issues that can happen from dealing with the stress of it. Plan B is exactly for that, protection from the destruction and making sure you keep yourself safe.
> 
> But it's only "not standing up for yourself" if you don't do the stick part of the plan at the same time.
> 
> *It's basically- be the man she fell in love with and wanted to marry however many years ago, but also demand that the affair end and expose it and make your WS see the truth behind what the reality of the affair is and see you for who you are- the man she wanted to spend the rest of her life with and raise children with.*


This presumes that the BH is -- in at least some way -- not the same person that he once was. Obviously this won't always be the case. Now... could the WW have somehow lost sight of who her husband is? Absolutely.

But yeah... if the BH has a list of things that he needs to work on, then he'd be wise to work on it. After all, he'll need to work those things out for himself and his kids either way, and especially if he wants another relationship in the future.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If he just wants to yell at her and call her a wh*re and start a war at every turn, it might make him feel better but it's not going to save his marriage.


1000% agree. If you're inclined to reconcile, then either go all in or go the f*ck home. Constantly bringing up your WS's indiscretions as a sort of "instawin trump card" may be tempting at times, but it won't go very far in terms of healing your marriage.


----------



## ConanHub

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He actually talks a lot about the consequences of Plan A. Even long term medical issues that can happen from dealing with the stress of it. Plan B is exactly for that, protection from the destruction and making sure you keep yourself safe.
> 
> But it's only "not standing up for yourself" if you don't do the stick part of the plan at the same time.
> 
> It's basically- be the man she fell in love with and wanted to marry however many years ago, but also demand that the affair end and expose it and make your WS see the truth behind what the reality of the affair is and see you for who you are- the man she wanted to spend the rest of her life with and raise children with.
> 
> If he just wants to yell at her and call her a wh*re and start a war at every turn, it might make him feel better but it's not going to save his marriage.


He actually says nothing about the detrimental effects of plan A on men in his book and it seems to be a go to on his site as well.

Some of the items you are describing are not found in the book and must be on his site somewhere.

Also, have you seen plan A done by a man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> but as a stop the affair and repair the relationship plan, I'd go with MB


If exposure doesn't end the affair then the rest of plan A for men will most certainly NOT help end it quickly.

After the affair is dead, plan A is mostly good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But crying, begging and pleading isn't Plan A and would pretty much be against the whole being calm and stop love busters part of it.
> 
> "The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" by Pepperband
> 
> THE CARROT OF PLAN A:
> 
> Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
> 
> Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
> 
> Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.
> 
> Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.
> 
> Stop lovebusting behaviors.




Oh he tried all that too. But as a Nice Guy he only wanted to save the marriage. He was not able to do the TAM thing, or Plan B. It never got to Plan B before she left.

MB might work for some people. But I have seen it not work. And I know that the Nice Guy is going to get _crushed_ by Plan A.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Thor said:


> Oh he tried all that too. But as a Nice Guy he only wanted to save the marriage. He was not able to do the TAM thing, or Plan B. It never got to Plan B before she left.
> 
> MB might work for some people. But I have seen it not work. And I know that the Nice Guy is going to get _crushed_ by Plan A.


The "swallow crap advice" works with some personalities - not many but some. My question is how do you respect a spouse that has kept [email protected]#$%^& their lover while you try to woo them back? I mean how does that work exactly. You try to end her affair for x amount of time and she keeps returing to the OM's bed. Let's say she stops in six months, a year, whatever - then what do you have exactly? The fact of the matter is while you were in agony she kept shagging the guy - that's a fact. Do you really want that person back? What have you won exactly? Something the OM got bored with and discarded?


----------



## NoChoice

carmen ohio said:


> NoChoice,
> 
> One of the most important messages of the Gospel (some Christians would say the most important message) is that, just as God forgives those who are not worthy of forgivness (see, e.g., _"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."_ (Romans 5:8 NIV)), as Christians, we should forgive others. *As I understand it the plan of salvation was for Christ to come to earth and spill his wholly sinless blood in order to redeem mankind. Therefore the "while we were still sinners" portion of the statement is unnecessary since all men since the fall of Adam are born into sin. It would be impossible to execute a plan of salvation for mankind if man had not sinned and therefore did not need salvation.*The most often recited expression of this Christian obligation is in the Lord's Prayer: _"__And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."_ (Matthew 6:12 KJV). Jesus explained the meaning of these words in starkly (perhaps even frighteningly) clear words: _"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."_ (Matthew 6:15-16 NIV). *My problem is not with forgiveness but rather with the continuation of the sin. I am a believer in R and have endorsed it here many times but only when I see remorse (repentence). Without remorse (repentence) there can be no forgiveness since the act of forgiveness is to eradicate the transgression. That cannot be accomplished when the transgression is ongoing.*
> 
> Forgiving those who not deserve it is one of the most difficult things a person can do and, sadly, Christians for the most part seem little better at it than everybody else. But the message is there, in the New Testament, for anybody to read.
> 
> The apparent Christian obligation to forgive must be distinguished from Biblical injunctions to _"turn away from sin"_ as you put it (the line you quote, _"Go and sin no more,"_ is from John 8:11 and is apt as it specifically involves adultery). It is certainly true that the Bible repeatedly urges people not to sin and warns of the price of sin. But it is also clear that God, at least as described in the Bible, does not expect any of us to stop sinning entirely, even after we become one of his people. *Perhaps if Christ had said "go and try not to sin any more" then I could accept your statement but his words clearly, at least to me, indicate his intended point.*In the Hebrew Bible, this is evident from the fact that the people of Israel where instructed to make atoning sacrifices for their sins in order to win God's forgiveness. In the New Testament, the act of making sacrifices is replaced by what Catholics call the Eucharist and Protestants call Holy Communion. The bread and wine represent (Catholics believe they become) the body and blood of Christ, and serve to remind Christians of Jesus' crucifixion, the ultimate sacrifice that paved the way for our forgiveness. In any event, and fortunately, it is clear that God does not expect perfection from his people, settling instead for their love and devotion.*Again, a salvation that cannot be obtained without repentance. The children of Abraham were not pleasing in God's sight, hence their Egyptian captivity and even after Moses led them out of captivity they still could not stop sinning and God kept them from the promised land, wandering the desert for 40 years. That does not sound like a God that is pleased with his people. Additionally, at their rate of consumption there would be no sacrificial lambs left in all of Isreal. Also, we differ on our definition of devotion.*
> 
> Although a Christian, and like most others here on TAM, I am of the view that infidelity justifies divorce, but there are many Christians who would disagree with this and the official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that divorce is not permitted (although, as a practical matter, the RCC lets it's members get out of their marriages all the time). But I must admit that, the act of divorce does seem at least somewhat antithetical to the obligation to forgive. If Dr. Harley is a Christian, this might explain why _Marriage Builders_ advises people to go to extraordinary lengths to preserve their marriages.


I believe that forgiveness is conditional. There is a verse that says "to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin". If a WS knows what they are doing is wrong and they purposely continue doing it is one to forgive perpetually? Is one to forgive future sin? There must be atonement for sin in order to have forgiveness and if one is unrepentant how can atonement occur? Why would it occur? Why would you forgive someone who does not want nor think they need forgiving?

When Christ himself went to the temple and saw the moneychangers conducting business in the there he did not forgive and bless them. He did in fact turn over their tables and ran them out of the temple. He surely would have forgiven them had they closed their tables and exited the temple but they did not. They brazenly defied God. Some things are simply intolerable, even to God.

Likewise, when the people of Sodom and Gomorrah refused to repent and turn back to God he sent a little shower of molten lava down upon them. This, to me, indicates that there is a limit to what God will tolerate and an indicator that forgiveness is conditional, available for those who will repent and turn from their wicked ways but not so much for those who refuse to do so. The flood is another example.

If you wish to reference a more contemporary model simply read the book of Revelation and see what awaits humanity if we do not repent.

I do believe in forgiveness but only if the individual wants to be forgiven and to me anyone who continues to do what they know is wrong and hurtful does not want to be forgiven. They are brazenly defying their spouse and family and that should not be tolerated. IMO.


----------



## CTPlay

At the end of the day, saving marriage from infidelity books far outnumber Chump Lady.


----------



## Dyokemm

Personally....I'm in the never forgive any betrayal, including infidelity, group.

But I will always support what a BS says he/she wants for his/her life.

I would still never recommend Plan A, however.

Another facet of the Plan A I despise is that it gives ultimate decision making power to the WS.

The cheater gets to look over their options and make the choice that they feel is best for them....while the BS plays the stupid 'pick me' dance trying to woo and win his/her own spouse back from a f*cking POS interloper that should have never been involved in the first place.

I think the WS should be the one trying hard to convince the BS why they shouldn't get their traitorous, worthless a** kicked to the curb hard.


----------



## larry.gray

CTPlay said:


> At the end of the day, saving marriage from infidelity books far outnumber Chump Lady.


That's because most men don't need a damn book to tell them to dump a cheating wife. Only the men who fight nature need a book.

The only guy I know IRL who reconciled after a PA was a serial cheat with a wife who had a RA. Everyone else divorced once the had proof.


----------



## TRy

ConanHub said:


> Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically.


 It is one thing to discuss a possible reconciliation if she immediately ends the affair, shows true remorse, and is willing to do the heavy lifting in helping you heal, but to be expected to kiss her rear for a year as she bed hops between you and her lover? Why would anyone want to do this? I could not imagine what type of man would sit there doing nothing as she gets ready for a date with her lover, sitting at home waiting knowing that she is having sex with this other man, and then welcoming her into his bed smelling of the other man inside of her (showers do not stop drips). Worse yet, what if she wants sex, are you suppose to be OK with getting the other man's sloppy seconds? This is beyond sick.


----------



## lovelygirl

marduk said:


> I guess I can see it. For some people, non-monogamy isn't a deal breaker. Or for the kids, or out of whatever they get from the marriage that is so great as to want to get over this kind of betrayal.
> 
> I just couldn't see that kind of power imbalance working out long-term you know? I mean I don't think I'd respect my wife as much if she let me screw another woman for six months and then come back to open arms and have her be willing to work on the marriage.


Totally agree and this is how I'd feel if my man let me screw another guy and still be okay with it. 
I would totally lose respect, disdain and mock him. 
A man who has balls, wouldn't put up with this.


----------



## Thor

Truthseeker1 said:


> The "swallow crap advice" works with some personalities - not many but some. My question is how do you respect a spouse that has kept [email protected]#$%^& their lover while you try to woo them back? I mean how does that work exactly. You try to end her affair for x amount of time and she keeps returing to the OM's bed. Let's say she stops in six months, a year, whatever - then what do you have exactly? The fact of the matter is while you were in agony she kept shagging the guy - that's a fact. Do you really want that person back? What have you won exactly? Something the OM got bored with and discarded?



Maybe you haven't been or known a truly pathological Nice Guy, as from the book No More Mr. Nice Guy.

The first thing the NG does is blame himself. There must be some flaw in him or something he did to cause her to stray. Furthermore, she is up on a pedestal with the Magic *****. Thus not only is she some kind of higher level creature than him, she can control him by metering out a little bit of sex once in a while. When things get really tough she just throws sex and affection at him for a week or two.

To the NG, he doesn't really deserve to be respected. And he really fears abandonment. She may be on the path to abandon him, so he has to fight to keep her from doing that. Since he thinks he is undeserving of her and of love, he fears he will never find another woman as good as her again.

So he resorts to his normal strategies of supplicating himself, and morphing into what he thinks she wants him to be.

Which is, of course, an ever bigger turn off to her. But she gets to cake eat, so she does. Which continues his agony as he digs the hole deeper by the day. She finally does leave him, crushing him. He sees himself as the failure, not her.


----------



## farsidejunky

*ETA: This post assumes a BH and a WW and is worded that way. *

I have been reading a couple of links sent to my by RoseAGlow. Plan A is not a cuckold plan, nor is it a door mat plan. Gus was really the closest. This is really a plan to kill an affair while being the man/lover/husband you want to be and she originally fell in love with.

The people supporting these folks are freaking exposure ninjas. This one poster was helping the OP by emailing the cheaterville link to the OM's business partners, as well as posting the link on reviews of the OM's business. 

They advocate emotional communication, e.g. "I'm sorry you feel that way", by spinning the words. The WW says "You are terrible for slandering me!", the canned response is "I agree, affairs are terrible". 

They advocate for the man to be his very best. Let's face it.  None of us are the perfect husband. Before anyone jumps on me over this statement, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR CHEATING. That said, it advocates that he improve himself, be the best man/husband he can be, and continue to do so until he can't any longer, while smacking the affair down through both actions and words. I think it is a very solid plan.

That said, I don't know how long I could Plan A. Maybe a month? Two? It is hard to say how long it would be because by ex wife had what I suspect was an exit affair while we were on different ends of the country. We never really know how strong or weak we are until we get tested. 

I guess it really all comes back to what the BH wants. If reconciliation is the desire, I see Plan A/B as a solid route.

It certainly would take a strong man. Plan A would eat a "Nice Guy" alive.


----------



## Married but Happy

Does his advice also apply to cuckqueans?


----------



## truster

farsidejunky said:


> The people supporting these folks are freaking exposure ninjas. This one poster was helping the OP by emailing the cheaterville link to the OM's business partners, as well as posting the link on reviews of the OM's business.


Hardcore. Where did this happen? My curiosity is piqued.


----------



## farsidejunky

Married but Happy said:


> Does his advice also apply to cuckqueans?


I would assume.

Two days on that site does not an expert make...


----------



## farsidejunky

truster said:


> Hardcore. Where did this happen? My curiosity is piqued.


IIRC it is in Detroit or thereabouts.

I may be wrong on it.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> *ETA: This post assumes a BH and a WW and is worded that way. *
> 
> I have been reading a couple of links sent to my by RoseAGlow. Plan A is not a cuckold plan, nor is it a door mat plan. Gus was really the closest. This is really a plan to kill an affair while being the man/lover/husband you want to be and she originally fell in love with.
> 
> The people supporting these folks are freaking exposure ninjas. This one poster was helping the OP by emailing the cheaterville link to the OM's business partners, as well as posting the link on reviews of the OM's business.
> 
> They advocate emotional communication, e.g. "I'm sorry you feel that way", by spinning the words. The WW says "You are terrible for slandering me!", the canned response is "I agree, affairs are terrible".
> 
> They advocate for the man to be his very best. Let's face it. None of us are the perfect husband. Before anyone jumps on me over this statement, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR CHEATING. That said, it advocates that he improve himself, be the best man/husband he can be, and continue to do so until he can't any longer, while smacking the affair down through both actions and words. I think it is a very solid plan.
> 
> That said, I don't know how long I could Plan A. Maybe a month? Two? It is hard to say how long it would be because by ex wife had what I suspect was an exit affair while we were on different ends of the country. We never really know how strong or weak we are until we get tested.
> 
> I guess it really all comes back to what the BH wants. If reconciliation is the desire, I see Plan A/B as a solid route.
> 
> It certainly would take a strong man. Plan A would eat a "Nice Guy" alive.


I have never disagreed with Harley on the exposure issue.

I have seen plan A attempts in real life. Do you have anything to show here besides stories from a site with an agenda?

All I have seen from the promoters of plan A on this thread is conjecture, no eye witness accounts or real life experiences for men attempting plan A.

I know far more than three men who have attempted plan A. I gave the three worst results but there are plenty more who got their guts punched out by a WW in affair land.

I have seen plan A fail big time with devastating results. MB going to let me post my stories?

MB is treating this bvllshyt like a gospel of Jesus. It is heresy to question it.

I have three bodies and dozens of broken lives that I can lay on the alter of plan A. Anybody else? Someone seen this first hand or just reading glowing reviews on MB?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## truster

farsidejunky said:


> IIRC it is in Detroit or thereabouts.
> 
> I may be wrong on it.


No, I mean, is this like a site where people do this for each other as part of R assistance, or is this just a singular example where some BS just had some really hardcore friends?


----------



## farsidejunky

ConanHub said:


> I have never disagreed with Harley on the exposure issue.
> 
> I have seen plan A attempts in real life. Do you have anything to show here besides stories from a site with an agenda?
> 
> All I have seen from the promoters of plan A on this thread is conjecture, no I witness accounts or real life experiences for men attempting plan A.
> 
> I know far more than three men who have attempted plan A. I gave the three worst results but there are plenty more who got their guts punched out by a WW in affair land.
> 
> I have seen plan A fail big time with devastating results. MB going to let me post my stories?
> 
> MB is treating this bvllshyt like a gospel of Jesus. It is heresy to question it.
> 
> I have three bodies and dozens of broken lives that I can lay on the alter of plan A. Anybody else? Someone seen his first hand or just reading glowing reviews on MB?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Therefore it must never work, and therefore never be considered?

Or am I misunderstanding you?


----------



## farsidejunky

truster said:


> No, I mean, is this like a site where people do this for each other as part of R assistance, or is this just a singular example where some BS just had some really hardcore friends?


Marriage Builders.

RoseAGlow sent me a couple of links for reading from their forums.


----------



## truster

ConanHub said:


> I have three bodies and dozens of broken lives that I can lay on the alter of plan A. Anybody else? Someone seen his first hand or just reading glowing reviews on MB?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think success stories on the site (and any site) can easily suffer from being a skewed sample. It's like the old Greek parable.. the sailors who came back safely always sang the praises of making sacrifices to Poseidon, so everyone was convinced that made them safe. Then one day, a philosopher pointed out that dead sailors never get to give their story as to whether or not they made their sacrifices..


----------



## betrayed16

I am a man that attempted Plan A/Plan B. My ex moved out without warning, which led me to discover the affair, so my Plan A was from afar, but I did respond crazy nice when she did contact me (which was rare). Dr. Harley pretty much always recommends antidepressants when you talk to him. I tried them, but the ones my doctor gave me knocked me out, so I went to the gym instead, and that relieved my depression.

FWIW, I don't feel like a chump. My belief system allows me to show mercy without feeling like a loser. And yes, I do see it as mercy. My ex is ruining her life, and I tried to stop her. I, on the other hand, will be fine.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral...* nor adulterers*..." (1 Corinthians 6:9)

If a wayward does not repent, they are destined for hell. Personally, that's not something I wish for my ex.

ETA: I was not obligated to try to save the marriage. Jesus very clearly permitted divorce in the case of adultery.


----------



## ConanHub

Plan A definitely fits my definition of cuckold.

Your wife gets back from a date to a warm and wonderful home with an adoring husband who can't get angry for her fvcking another man and can only disapprove and ask her to stop gently, without arguing.

So if she tells you to shut up and escalates, you better back down because that would not be making a deposit in her love bank.

She then can expect to be catered to by her husband, taking her out on dates, if her nether regions aren't too sore, and even second honeymoon vacations.

If exposure doesn't end an affair, very little besides swift action will.

That is why some WWs actually came back to their families after the husband finally enacts plan B.

He could have saved himself from swallowing shyt and just done it first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

ConanHub said:


> That is why *some* WWs actually came back to their families after the husband finally enacts plan B.
> 
> He could have saved himself from swallowing shyt and just done it first.


Thank you for that important (bolded) distinction.

But your dislike of the program is not enough to cast it aside as drivel.


----------



## GusPolinski

Married but Happy said:


> Does his advice also apply to cuckqueans?



Yes, but the recommendations w/ respect to HOW LONG are different... two weeks for a BW and up to six months to a year for a BH. Ehhh... no thanks.

Sure, be a good man. Hell, be a better man. But do that for yourself and your kids, not for a WW that -- when given an explicit choice -- chose another man over you.


----------



## ConanHub

Married but Happy said:


> Does his advice also apply to cuckqueans?


Nope. They only get to tough it out for up to three weeks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Yes, but the recommendations w/ respect to HOW LONG are different... two weeks for a BW and up to six months to a year for a BH. Ehhh... no thanks.
> 
> Sure, be a good man. Hell, be a better man. But do that for yourself and your kids, not for a WW that -- when given an explicit choice -- chose another man over you.


Does anyone know the reason?

ETA: I don't which is why I am asking.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> Therefore it must never work, and therefore never be considered?
> 
> Or am I misunderstanding you?


I have seen it attempted. Have you? I know many people affected by it personally. Do you know any?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

farsidejunky said:


> They advocate for the man to be his very best. Let's face it. None of us are the perfect husband.


You are right "None of us are the perfect husband", because as humans we can never be perfect. That is what is wrong with the core logic of Plan A. It buys into the cheaters logic where they get to hold you the cheated on spouse to an impossible standard of perfection, that they do not even have to try to hold themselves to. It has the cheated on spouse being the very best spouse that they can be, while the cheater does not even have to honor the most core values of their marriage vows. Worse yet, the cheater gets to be the sole judge and jury as to if you win, because what you think does not matter. Also, what if her lover is better looking than you, makes more money than you, and has the advantage of newness when he makes love to her, and thus after a year of getting to openly court and date your wife she picks him over you. Talk about a publicly humiliating soul crushing experience. Also, even if you win, what did you really win? Do you not think that with a year of effort being the best that you could be you could not have found someone better? Someone that has a moral compass? Someone that would wake up every morning thanking God that they had you in their life?

Sorry but a 6 month to a year Plan A does not make sense for anyone but the cheater. You cannot win with such a plan. If you lose, your soul is crushed. If you win, you end up with a cheater that is capable of hurting you in the worst way, which means you won nothing worth having.


----------



## farsidejunky

ConanHub said:


> I have seen it attempted. Have you? I know many people affected by it personally. Do you know any?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, but I don't know anybody who has trained as an Olympic athlete either.

I am sure it hurts. There are probably days they want to quit. They have injury setbacks. Some of them become permanently injured through attempting it. Some days theybprobably dont want to get out of bed because I would havr to imagine the training is grueling. 

Yet they still do so. Why do you suppose that is, Conan?


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> I am a man that attempted Plan A/Plan B. My ex moved out without warning, which led me to discover the affair, so my Plan A was from afar, but I did respond crazy nice when she did contact me (which was rare). Dr. Harley pretty much always recommends antidepressants when you talk to him. I tried them, but the ones my doctor gave me knocked me out, so I went to the gym instead, and that relieved my depression.
> 
> FWIW, I don't feel like a chump. My belief system allows me to show mercy without feeling like a loser. And yes, I do see it as mercy. My ex is ruining her life, and I tried to stop her. I, on the other hand, will be fine.
> 
> "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral...* nor adulterers*..." (1 Corinthians 6:9)
> 
> If a wayward does not repent, they are destined for hell. Personally, that's not something I wish for my ex.
> 
> ETA: I was not obligated to try to save the marriage. Jesus very clearly permitted divorce in the case of adultery.


Well at least you didn't have to provide a comfortable home for her to come back to after dates.

Thanks for sharing. Did it occur to you that having to drug yourself to follow advice might mean the advice was questionable?

I actually could decimate Harley on a biblical level but am choosing to approach this through a question of what is healthy and what actually works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

TRy said:


> You are right "None of us are the perfect husband", because as humans we can never be perfect. That is what is wrong with the core logic of Plan A. It buys into the cheaters logic where they get to hold you the cheated on spouse to an impossible standard of perfection, that they do not even have to try to hold themselves to. It has the cheated on spouse being the very best spouse that they can be, while the cheater does not even have to honor the most core values of their marriage vows. Worse yet, the cheater gets to be the sole judge and jury as to if you win, because what you think does not matter. Also, what if her lover is better looking than you, makes more money than you, and has the advantage of newness when he makes love to her, and thus after a year of getting to openly court and date your wife she picks him over you. Talk about a publicly humiliating soul crushing experience. Also, even if you win, what did you really win? Do you not think that with a year of effort being the best that you could be you could not have found someone better? Someone that has a moral compass? Someone that would wake up every morning thanking God that they had you in their life?
> 
> Sorry but a 6 month to a year Plan A does not make sense for anyone but the cheater. You cannot win with such a plan. If you lose, your soul is crushed. If you win, you end up with a cheater that is capable of hurting you in the worst way, which means you won nothing worth having.


Then don't do it.

But don't say it can't work simply because it can't work for you.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> Thank you for that important (bolded) distinction.
> 
> But your dislike of the program is not enough to cast it aside as drivel.


My hatred, lets be clear, of the program stems from the devastation I have personally witnessed it wreak.

Again, have you witnessed it?

I know some marriages had to have been restored but some marriages are restored when people don't do anything as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

ConanHub said:


> My hatred, lets be clear, of the program stems from the devastation I have personally witnessed it wreak.
> 
> Again, have you witnessed it?
> 
> I know some marriages had to have been restored but some marriages are restored when people don't do anything as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No.

Does my answer to that question now give you the justification to call it drivel?


----------



## convert

as I said before the only thing I did right before i came here was Exposure, it killed the affair.

She was still in the "Fog"

I tried to nice her out of it (plan A I guess).

This went on for about 2 weeks, until she said she "was tied of me being clingy and my god damn whining" exact words. At that instant I literally could hear a snap in my head.
from that point on I was totally different, changed for the good. did a the 180 started doing things for me alone.

funny how her toxic friend (who helped facilitate her affair) became interested in me and even asked my ww if she was done with me if she could "Date" me.

WW then became the god damn clingy, whiny one.

Trying to nice a wayward back usually does not work if at all.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> No, but I don't know anybody who has trained as an Olympic athlete either.
> 
> I am sure it hurts. There are probably days they want to quit. They have injury setbacks. Some of them become permanently injured through attempting it. Some days theybprobably dont want to get out of bed because I would havr to imagine the training is grueling.
> 
> Yet they still do so. Why do you suppose that is, Conan?


Olympic athletes have many training methods. Plan A would be a theoretical and pathetic training method that produced more broken athletes than healthy ones.

I am the equivalent of an Olympic coach that has trained athletes using plan A and seen the results.

You are debating with an eye witness and former promoter of plan A without any real examples yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

convert said:


> as I said before the only thing I did right before i came here was Exposure, it killed the affair.
> 
> She was still in the "Fog"
> 
> I tried to nice her out of it (plan A I guess).
> 
> This went on for about 2 weeks, until she said she "was tied of me being clingy and my god damn whining" exact words. At that instant I literally could hear a snap in my head.
> from that point on I was totally different, changed for the good. did a the 180 started doing things for me alone.
> 
> funny how her toxic friend (who helped facilitate her affair) became interested in me and even asked my ww if she was done with me if she could "Date" me.
> 
> WW then became the god damn clingy, whiny one.
> 
> *Trying to nice a wayward back usually does not work if at all.*


It doesn't work and is also nauseating to be nice to a person who did one of the most cruel, heartless things in the world to you. even if they do come back - the effects of what they did NEVER EVER go away.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> No.
> 
> Does my answer to that question now give you the justification to call it drivel?


My experience does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

Truthseeker1 said:


> It doesn't work and is also nauseating to be nice to a person who did one of the most cruel, heartless things in the world to you. even if they do come back - the effects of what they did NEVER EVER go away.


I agree and it could set the stage for rug sweeping, which is never good


----------



## farsidejunky

Conan, you frequently have some very good things to say.

Other times, the pride and arrogance you demonstrate make it much more difficult to hear you.

I will again reassert the opinion that because it did not work for the people you knew, does not mean that it can't or wont work.


----------



## Truthseeker1

convert said:


> I agree and it could set the stage for rug sweeping, which is never good


People who rug sweep condemn themselves to a life of agony. In the face oif a crisis decisive a**kicking is required - whether you R or D your spouse has to know you push back and are willing to push back harder. Disloyalty needs to be met with a swift harsh response.


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> Does anyone know the reason?
> 
> ETA: I don't which is why I am asking.


The logic behind it probably has something to do w/ the notion that WWs are likely to be far more emotionally invested in their APs and, as a result, it will therefore take longer for them to cut ties and come back to the marriage.

That said, _*I don't care.*_

This is more or less the narrative that unfolded in the days following my discovery of my wife's EAs (paraphrasing)...

"You want time and space? (*** NOTE *** She never said this, BTW.) That's cool. I'll give you the 'space' between the front door and the end of the driveway, along w/ the 'time' that it takes you to walk it. And if you need more of either, you can GTFO. But know this -- leaving means that you _won't_ be coming back.

"I'm not perfect. I've never _been_ perfect. I can admit that. Hell, it's obvious to anyone that knows me, so all I'd be doing in denying it is lying to myself. I will listen to any legitimate grievances that you have, and I will work in earnest to address them. But know this... any 'blame' or responsibility for your behavior rests solely upon your shoulders. And, while I won't force you to do anything, if you want to stay in this marriage with me, this behavior HAS to be over. I won't tolerate it. You wouldn't tolerate it from me, and I wouldn't respect you if you did. 

"We've spent a lot of years together and, in that time, we've been through a lot together, especially these past few months. I honestly -- and maybe naively -- thought that working through all of it side-by-side was bringing us closer together, but I can see how these types of things could cloud judgement and leave one particularly vulnerable to the advances of another. I'm not making excuses for you... I'm simply saying that I understand.

"At the same time, if you have so little respect for me that you could conceivably give yourself to another man, then you don't deserve to be stuck with me... and I don't deserve to be stuck with you.

"I love you. I want you. I want our marriage, and I want it to be better. But I won't tolerate this behavior. It ends NOW, or WE end now."

We didn't end. 

Now... had either of her EAs been a PA, I'd have likely shortened the above to simply "GTFO."


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> The logic behind it probably has something to do w/ the notion that WWs are likely to be far more emotionally invested in their APs and, as a result, it will therefore take longer for them to cut ties and come back to the marriage.
> 
> That said, _*I don't care.*_
> 
> This is more or less the narrative that unfolded in the days following my discovery of my wife's EAs (paraphrasing)...
> 
> "You want time and space? (*** NOTE *** She never said this, BTW.) That's cool. I'll give you the 'space' between the front door and the end of the driveway, along w/ the 'time' that it takes you to walk it. And if you need more of either, you can GTFO. But know this -- leaving means that you _won't_ be coming back.
> 
> "I'm not perfect. I've never _been_ perfect. I can admit that. Hell, it's obvious to anyone that knows me, so all I'd be doing in denying it is lying to myself. I will listen to any legitimate grievances that you have, and I will work in earnest to address them. But know this... any 'blame' or responsibility for your behavior rests solely upon your shoulders. And, while I won't force you to do anything, if you want to stay in this marriage with me, this behavior HAS to be over. I won't tolerate it. You wouldn't tolerate it from me, and I wouldn't respect you if you did.
> 
> "We've spent a lot of years together and, in that time, we've been through a lot together, especially these past few months. I honestly -- and maybe naively -- thought that working through all of it side-by-side was bringing us closer together, but I can see how these types of things could cloud judgement and leave one particular vulnerable to the advances of another. I'm not making excuses for you... I'm simply saying that I understand.
> 
> "At the same time, if you have so little respect for me that you could conceivably give yourself to another man, then you don't deserve to be stuck with me... and I don't deserve to be stuck with you.
> 
> "I love you. I want you. I want our marriage, and I want it to be better. But I won't tolerate this behavior. It ends NOW, or WE end now."
> 
> We didn't end.
> 
> Now... had either of her EAs been a PA, I'd have likely shortened the above to simply "GTFO."


A spouses "imperfections" are usually just an excuse to get some strange. Which is why i wonder with couples that do reconcile how many BSs get some strange of their own down the line - since the WS ain;t so perfect themselves.


----------



## betrayed16

ConanHub said:


> Well at least you didn't have to provide a comfortable home for her to come back to after dates.
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Did it occur to you that having to drug yourself to follow advice might mean the advice was questionable?
> 
> I actually could decimate Harley on a biblical level but am choosing to approach this through a question of what is healthy and what actually works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dr. Harley always states that he never encourages people to attempt to save the marriage if they want to divorce. I heard him say that yesterday, and I've heard him say it numerous times before. Plan A/B are for those that decide that they want to save the marriage in spite of the infidelity. The advice is to Plan A for *up to* six months or a year *as long as it's not affecting your health*. You are supposed to do Plan B as soon as you feel like you can't do Plan A anymore. The antidepressants are not necessarily to extend Plan A but even to help in Plan B.


----------



## betrayed16

Also, people have different experiences, and I understand that. However, I was borderline suicidal *before* I found Plan A/B. Once I had a plan, it made the overwhelming situation I found myself in a little more bearable. 

By the way, I am very sorry about your friends, Conan. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just giving my own experience.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

FTR- H's affair isn't rugswept. We discuss it whenever I need to, we have a 100% radical honesty policy. No passwords, no more independent behaviour. 15 hours a week alone time + meeting emotional needs and stopping love busters. The policy of joint agreement has been a little tricky but for the most part is done as well. 

The whole point is to make the changes needed to fix the relationship for the long run. 

Those against MB- For people who want to recover and move forward after infidelity, what would you suggest? The 180 is for moving on, not fixing your marriage.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> FTR- H's affair isn't rugswept. We discuss it whenever I need to, we have a 100% radical honesty policy. No passwords, no more independent behaviour. 15 hours a week alone time + meeting emotional needs and stopping love busters. The policy of joint agreement has been a little tricky but for the most part is done as well.
> 
> The whole point is to make the changes needed to fix the relationship for the long run.
> 
> *Those against MB- For people who want to recover and move forward after infidelity, what would you suggest?* The 180 is for moving on, not fixing your marriage.


Take away the "waiting period" and I'm all for it.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> Take away the "waiting period" and I'm all for it.


I've never read a thread there with a man going through it for that long. From what I read it sounds like those are more recommended maximums because he found that after that length of time he noticed long term health issues and it's not safe. 

Basically- as soon as you can't or don't want to do it anymore you stop and go Plan B.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I've never read a thread there with a man going through it for that long. From what I read it sounds like those are more recommended maximums because he found that after that length of time he noticed long term health issues and it's not safe.
> 
> Basically- *as soon as you can't or don't want to do it anymore you stop and go Plan B.*


And that would be the exact moment that she walked out the door.


----------



## BradWesley

1) Any man who even considers Plan A need to have his man card permanently revoked. Biologically, he may be a man, but forfeits all else.

2) His WW, needs to buy a dog collar and leash, so that she can parade him in public, while wearing a tee shirt saying "I'm married to Mr. Noballs." This tells the world, that he is completely humiliated and cuckold, and that she has the balls and wears the pants in the family


----------



## Dyokemm

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> FTR- The 180 is for moving on, not fixing your marriage.


This is a fair point...the 180 is for detaching emotionally and preparing to move on.

But that IMO is precisely what a BS should be doing in the aftermath of a betrayal.

It is on the WS to do what is necessary to save the M.....they are the ones who left the M in the first place.

I believe a BS, whether they want R or D, should always immediately expose the A thoroughly and file for D ASAP, and then embark on the 180.

D doesn't happen overnight....and while the D process is moving forward should be the only time period a BS gives for a WS to wake up and start doing everything necessary to show they truly want to save the M.

Fixing the M will involve both partners making efforts to change.

But the A is 100% on the WS....and it is 100% on them to own it and beg for their BS to even give them a chance at fixing it.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> Conan, you frequently have some very good things to say.
> 
> Other times, the pride and arrogance you demonstrate make it much more difficult to hear you.
> 
> I will again reassert the opinion that because it did not work for the people you knew, does not mean that it can't or wont work.


I would assert you are actually far more clouded on this issue than I.

I have practiced teaching plan A and witnessed the results first hand.

You don't even know anyone who has done it.

I have reasons for my views. Right now they seem far more solid than yours given no evidence you can provide.

I am admittedly arrogant and it does get in the way of clear responses from others. My facts are in line on this subject. There are devastating results from putting plan A into effect for men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

P.S. I never said plan A never produced satisfaction for some.

I'm saying it is mostly reckless and not nearly as effective as other methods and far more damaging.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> This is a fair point...the 180 is for detaching emotionally and preparing to move on.
> 
> But that IMO is precisely what a BS should be doing in the aftermath of a betrayal.
> 
> It is on the WS to do what is necessary to save the M.....they are the ones who left the M in the first place.
> 
> I believe a BS, whether they want R or D, should always immediately expose the A thoroughly and file for D ASAP, and then embark on the 180.
> 
> D doesn't happen overnight....and while the D process is moving forward should be the only time period a BS gives for a WS to wake up and start doing everything necessary to show they truly want to save the M.
> 
> Fixing the M will involve both partners making efforts to change.
> 
> But the A is 100% on the WS....and it is 100% on them to own it and beg for their BS to even give them a chance at fixing it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Too many WSs can't or won't do this - wich is why exposure, filing for D and the 180 are necessary to protect the BS - they are the victims here not the WS. The WS had their fun and is looking to avoid the consequences. Make no mistake if you filed for D or reconciled your Ws had fun during their affair. Remember this -* they went out of their way* to sleep with this other person while they effortlessly neglected you.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> Does anyone know the reason?
> 
> ETA: I don't which is why I am asking.


Because Harley believes that men can suck shyt longer, much longer, than women without being damaged.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> Dr. Harley always states that he never encourages people to attempt to save the marriage if they want to divorce. I heard him say that yesterday, and I've heard him say it numerous times before. Plan A/B are for those that decide that they want to save the marriage in spite of the infidelity. The advice is to Plan A for *up to* six months or a year *as long as it's not affecting your health*. You are supposed to do Plan B as soon as you feel like you can't do Plan A anymore. The antidepressants are not necessarily to extend Plan A but even to help in Plan B.


Thank you. His book offers no option like the one you just described.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## betrayed16

ConanHub said:


> Thank you. His book offers no option like the one you just described.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are right. He says he recommends that _most_ men do Plan A for at least six months. He adds the caveat that most men can handle this amount of time without experiencing long-term health effects. The unwritten assumption is that if it does affect your health you go into Plan B. However, I can see how a man may attempt to do it longer because he feels that if "most" men can do it for six months, he should, too.


----------



## TRy

farsidejunky said:


> Then don't do it.
> 
> But don't say it can't work simply because it can't work for you.


 I did not say that it "can't work". I am just saying that at best all that you have is a cheater that had it in her to crush your soul for 6 months to a year even if it does work. For the effort, you could have done better.


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> You are right. He says he recommends that _most_ men do Plan A for at least six months. He adds the caveat that most men can handle this amount of time without experiencing long-term health effects. The unwritten assumption is that if it does affect your health you go into Plan B. However, I can see how a man may attempt to do it longer because he feels that if "most" men can do it for six months, he should, too.


In my experience most men cannot do this even for a month without significant damage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> In my experience most men cannot do this even for a month without significant damage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The BS needs PROTECTION from the cheating spouse - they don't need to focus on anything else at that point.


----------



## betrayed16

ConanHub said:


> In my experience most men cannot do this even for a month without significant damage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I made it for about a year, but as I mentioned, my ex was out of the house and had pretty much cut off contact.


----------



## TRy

betrayed16 said:


> I made it for about a year, but as I mentioned, my ex was out of the house and had pretty much cut off contact.


 And in the end, what do you have to show for that year of effort? Had you put that time and energy moving on, would you not have been better off? BTW: I hope that things are going better for you today.


----------



## betrayed16

TRy said:


> And in the end, what do you have to show for that year of effort? Had you put that time and energy moving on, would you not have been better off? BTW: I hope that things are going better for you today.


I am doing great today. 

I don't regret the effort I put into saving my ex-wife. She's a lost soul, and I hope that someday she repents. Sometimes things don't go the way we plan, even if we put our all into it.


----------



## TRy

betrayed16 said:


> I am doing great today.
> 
> I don't regret the effort I put into saving my ex-wife. She's a lost soul, and I hope that someday she repents. Sometimes things don't go the way we plan, even if we put our all into it.


 Although you "don't regret the effort" you put into trying to save your ex-wife, at the end of the day it did not work out as planned, and you cannot say that you are a satisfied success story of using Plan A. Many of us believe that the TAM approach of being willing to end the marriage in order to have a better chance at saving it is a better approach, because not only does it increase the odds of success, but it leaves you further along of the road to recovery should the marriage not work out.

I am glad that you are doing well today. You sound like a very decent person that will make someone that is smart enough to appreciate this a great spouse. If you ask my friends, they would tell you that I commonly say that the number one thing to look for in a spouse is that they be a decent person. Good luck.


----------



## badmemory

I suppose I'm just a cynical SOB, but I have a theory of why Harley endorses this ludicrous 6 month plan A for men. 

If even just a certain portion of beta husbands he counsels are willing to be a plan B in waiting for their WW; and somehow because of that they remain married; then he statistically adds to his (or his commercial organization's) "success" rate for "saving" marriages.


----------



## Truthseeker1

badmemory said:


> I suppose I'm just a cynical SOB, but I have a theory of why Harley endorses this ludicrous 6 month plan A for men.
> 
> If even just a certain portion of beta husbands he counsels are willing to be a plan B in waiting for their WW; and somehow because of that they remain married; then he statistically adds to his (or his commercial organization's) "success" rate for "saving" marriages.


He does have a busiess to run. >


----------



## 3putt

I find it quite ironic that the man who created the concept of full nuclear exposure gets ridiculed for creating a 'beta' approach to recovery, when we can't get even *one* 'non-beta guy' around here to go that route himself, or even get encouraged to do so by all the 'alphas' we have around here.

I find it even more ironic that those same ones that call Dr. Harley's methods so 'beta' are against confronting the OM face to face, when Dr. Harley himself fully endorses confronting the OM. And, please, spare me the 'it will serve no purpose but to get you in trouble' rhetoric. Oh, it serves a purpose alright; to show who's 'alpha' and 'man' enough to stand up to someone who is systematically destroying his marriage and family. 

I think that some around here have their definitions of alpha and beta a little screwed up. 

I don't agree with all his methods, to be sure, but this dog-piling on the entire program simply because you don't believe in certain aspects of it is pathetic, IMO.


----------



## jim123

I do not like Harley's consulting. The few I knew who went to him were pressured to R. He did a lot of emotional things around the kids.

Not everyone should D. D is not the only solution even though I recommend it most of the time.

The big issue is most BH do not use the stick part. They do not expose. The program does not work without it.

I would never do it but let's face it, BH do go to him looking to stay married to the WW at all costs. They can quit and D at any time.


----------



## JustGrinding

The useful part of Marriage Builders is the tools. The questionnaires are useful in building a foundation for communication.

The "affair-proofing" book reads like a horror novel, where John sells his soul to collect the drippings of sloppy seconds from Sue's affair. Fine, if you're into that sort of thing, I guess.

The forum is basically a cult, where The Good Doctor's words and beliefs are collected, parsed, and consumed like so much manna from heaven. Dissent is not tolerated and any words that don't directly reflect The Master's teachings are stricken with prejudice. If you really have no idea how to make a decision for yourself or generally interact with humanity, and relish the company of zealots, I highly recommend the Marriage Builders program and its on-line forum.

If you really want to go all in, you can pay $200 an hour for indoctrination sessions with one of the specially-trained counselors, or even (gasp!) one of The Great One's children. Occasionally, The Messiah himself will drop in and comment on the forum (usually just in the paid section, though). Then ye shall know that thou hast truly been blessed, and thy bond to that wretched betrayer shall be healed for all eternity. Amen.

All-in-all, a good deal I think . . .


----------



## Truthseeker1

jim123 said:


> I do not like Harley's consulting. The few *I knew who went to him were pressured to R.* He did a lot of emotional things around the kids.
> 
> *Not everyone should D. D is not the only solution even though I recommend it most of the time.*
> 
> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> The big issue is most BH do not use the stick part. They do not expose. The program does not work without it.
> 
> I would never do it but let's face it, BH do go to him looking to stay married to the WW at all costs. They can quit and D at any time.


The BS should not be pressured either way but do what is best for their long term well being. That is unfortunate that these folks at one of the most vulnerable times in their life were subjected to pressure form their counselor. Does not sound really ethical.


----------



## betrayed16

jim123 said:


> I do not like Harley's consulting. The few I knew who went to him were pressured to R. He did a lot of emotional things around the kids.
> 
> Not everyone should D. D is not the only solution even though I recommend it most of the time.
> 
> The big issue is most BH do not use the stick part. They do not expose. The program does not work without it.
> 
> I would never do it but let's face it, BH do go to him looking to stay married to the WW at all costs. They can quit and D at any time.


These people you knew went to him in person? Or on the radio? I've NEVER heard Dr. Harley encourage someone not to divorce. It's hard for me to believe that he would have different views in one-on-one meetings than he expresses on his daily show.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I have to say I spent years and years being whatever the female equivalent to a "nice guy" is. I guess just walked over. Doing more and more to try to get attention. Always saying "sure, of course I'll do that for you" even when I didn't want to. Basically just being used and taken for granted while he took more and more.

As soon as I got my composure back after D-Day and started Plan A (which WAS different from my "just do even more and beg and cry and get even more walked on" plan I had started with), I felt much more in control. 

It was basically "this is how amazing and awesome I am. I am a catch that you would be lucky so end your affair and have a great marriage with me or you're really missing out"

Within a month he was out of his affair, out of his 'fog', NC, showing real remorse, and actually reciprocating my efforts for the first time in years. 

Because it wasn't weak, it was strength. I'm a [email protected] good wife who can meet EN, spend quality time together instead of independent behaviors and am not too prideful to look at my own love busting and make repairs as needed because the affair was just 1 part of the picture. 

I was the person I wanted to be, the person I would want to be with. I wasn't vengeful or full of hate, or holding it over his head as a trump card. I wasn't calling him names or assuming I had no part in the destruction. I wasn't playing games like going out or acting like I was moving on. All those things would have been weaker IMO. It's easy to get on a high horse and call someone a wh*re and wallow in self pity.

But even though my situation wasn't nearly as bad as many that I have read, I still consider it a success. We just had the best 2 months together that we have ever had in our whole relationship and I don't think many people can say that 3 months after an affair.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I have to say I spent years and years being whatever the female equivalent to a "nice guy" is. I guess just walked over. Doing more and more to try to get attention. Always saying "sure, of course I'll do that for you" even when I didn't want to. Basically just being used and taken for granted while he took more and more.
> 
> As soon as I got my composure back after D-Day and started Plan A (which WAS different from my "just do even more and beg and cry and get even more walked on" plan I had started with), I felt much more in control.
> 
> It was basically "this is how amazing and awesome I am. I am a catch that you would be lucky so end your affair and have a great marriage with me or you're really missing out"
> 
> Within a month he was out of his affair, out of his 'fog', NC, showing real remorse, and actually reciprocating my efforts for the first time in years.
> 
> Because it wasn't weak, it was strength. I'm a [email protected] good wife who can meet EN, spend quality time together instead of independent behaviors and am not too prideful to look at my own love busting and make repairs as needed because the affair was just 1 part of the picture.
> 
> I was the person I wanted to be, the person I would want to be with. I wasn't vengeful or full of hate, or holding it over his head as a trump card. I wasn't calling him names or assuming I had no part in the destruction. I wasn't playing games like going out or acting like I was moving on. All those things would have been weaker IMO. It's easy to get on a high horse and call someone a wh*re and wallow in self pity.
> 
> *But even though my situation wasn't nearly as bad as many that I have read, I still consider it a success. We just had the best 2 months together that we have ever had in our whole relationship and I don't think many people can say that 3 months after an affair.*


A word of caution... TONS of folks do well in the early days of reconciliation. Hell, it's almost like falling in love all over again. Eventually, though, things will start to spin down a bit, and you'll BOTH have to be able to sustain the momentum that you've established thus far so that you don't fall flat on your faces once all of the hysterical bonding and heart-to-heart discussions start to wane. I don't say any of this to dissuade or discourage you in any way, but rather to sort of forewarn you.

And just so we're clear, you're roughly 3 months out from D-Day and 2 months out from the _start_ of NC...? :scratchhead:

Don't get me wrong, it's great that you're doing well, but still... maybe give it a while before claiming success.


----------



## GusPolinski

3putt said:


> I find it quite ironic that the man who created the concept of full nuclear exposure gets ridiculed for creating a 'beta' approach to recovery, when we can't get even *one* 'non-beta guy' around here to go that route himself, or even get encouraged to do so by all the 'alphas' we have around here.
> 
> I find it even more ironic that those same ones that call Dr. Harley's methods so 'beta' are against confronting the OM face to face, when Dr. Harley himself fully endorses confronting the OM. And, please, spare me the 'it will serve no purpose but to get you in trouble' rhetoric. Oh, it serves a purpose alright; to show who's 'alpha' and 'man' enough to stand up to someone who is systematically destroying his marriage and family.
> 
> I think that some around here have their definitions of alpha and beta a little screwed up.
> 
> I don't agree with all his methods, to be sure, but this dog-piling on the entire program simply because you don't believe in certain aspects of it is pathetic, IMO.


Wow. Didn't see that one coming at all.


----------



## antechomai

Dyokemm said:


> Yeah.....but it is pretty f*cking low IMO.
> 
> I have a particular distaste for POSOM's who are former BH's themselves.
> 
> They KNOW what the pain and anguish are, but don't hesitate to inflict them on some other guy who has done nothing to them.
> 
> If they felt entitled to step out on their traitorous fWW's....well at least they could do it with a single woman....or their own POSOM's BW.
> 
> Why they choose to screw over guys who had done them no wrong when they know the heartbreak it causes?....I'll never understand that.


I think I've had this post up for several days. While I agree, there is still something about it and I can't put my finger on it.

Maybe as a BS, my heart is conditioned to self protect, so I will not let hurt as an emotion rule over my sense of who I am. 
I felt very hurt then. Never again.


----------



## TAMAT

We can interpret Dr Harley many ways, and it's important to separate out the attitude of some of the more inflexible posters and moderators on his forum from Dr. Harley.

My interpretation of his plan is not to lay down and let your WW humiliate you, but to 

1) expose the affair and kill it dead

2) confront the OM

3) work on yourself, this is plan A, which is something you have to do if you stay married or not. My interpretation of this is that your Ws falling back in love with you for it is a byproduct of the self-improvement. 

Dr Harley indirectly saved my marriage back in 2008, or at least made my W happy about the way I treat her.

Personally I have to agree there is an element of softness in his approach, I don't think I could stand a flagrant affair without really violent consequences. 

Tamat


----------



## betrayed16

Hmm, is this guy a "beta" male?

My wife left & is 'in love' with a coworker - Marriage Builders® Forums

I think he's doing a great job fighting for his family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

3putt said:


> I find it quite ironic that the man who created the concept of full nuclear exposure gets ridiculed for creating a 'beta' approach to recovery, when we can't get even *one* 'non-beta guy' around here to go that route himself, or even get encouraged to do so by all the 'alphas' we have around here.
> 
> I find it even more ironic that those same ones that call Dr. Harley's methods so 'beta' are against confronting the OM face to face, when Dr. Harley himself fully endorses confronting the OM. And, please, spare me the 'it will serve no purpose but to get you in trouble' rhetoric. Oh, it serves a purpose alright; to show who's 'alpha' and 'man' enough to stand up to someone who is systematically destroying his marriage and family.
> 
> I think that some around here have their definitions of alpha and beta a little screwed up.
> 
> I don't agree with all his methods, to be sure, but this dog-piling on the entire program simply because you don't believe in certain aspects of it is pathetic, IMO.


Use a scalpel here. I am. I am against plan A for men. His exposure and confrontation advice is solid.

His limited foundation that claims infidelity only takes place when certain needs aren't being met is ludicrous as well as plan A.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I have to say I spent years and years being whatever the female equivalent to a "nice guy" is. I guess just walked over. Doing more and more to try to get attention. Always saying "sure, of course I'll do that for you" even when I didn't want to. Basically just being used and taken for granted while he took more and more.
> 
> As soon as I got my composure back after D-Day and started Plan A (which WAS different from my "just do even more and beg and cry and get even more walked on" plan I had started with), I felt much more in control.
> 
> It was basically "this is how amazing and awesome I am. I am a catch that you would be lucky so end your affair and have a great marriage with me or you're really missing out"
> 
> Within a month he was out of his affair, out of his 'fog', NC, showing real remorse, and actually reciprocating my efforts for the first time in years.
> 
> Because it wasn't weak, it was strength. I'm a [email protected] good wife who can meet EN, spend quality time together instead of independent behaviors and am not too prideful to look at my own love busting and make repairs as needed because the affair was just 1 part of the picture.
> 
> I was the person I wanted to be, the person I would want to be with. I wasn't vengeful or full of hate, or holding it over his head as a trump card. I wasn't calling him names or assuming I had no part in the destruction. I wasn't playing games like going out or acting like I was moving on. All those things would have been weaker IMO. It's easy to get on a high horse and call someone a wh*re and wallow in self pity.
> 
> But even though my situation wasn't nearly as bad as many that I have read, I still consider it a success. We just had the best 2 months together that we have ever had in our whole relationship and I don't think many people can say that 3 months after an affair.


Thanks for the story. Were you advised to meet his need for sex while he was dipping it with the OW?

I was actually looking for stories of men using plan A because Harley advises them to continue for so long.

I am very glad you achieved the results you wanted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> A word of caution... TONS of folks do well in the early days of reconciliation. Hell, it's almost like falling in love all over again. Eventually, though, things will start to spin down a bit, and you'll BOTH have to be able to sustain the momentum that you've established thus far so that you don't fall flat on your faces once all of the hysterical bonding and heart-to-heart discussions start to wane. I don't say any of this to dissuade or discourage you in any way, but rather to sort of forewarn you.
> 
> And just so we're clear, you're roughly 3 months out from D-Day and 2 months out from the _start_ of NC...? :scratchhead:
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it's great that you're doing well, but still... maybe give it a while before claiming success.


Like 5 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

betrayed16 said:


> Hmm, is this guy a "beta" male?
> 
> My wife left & is 'in love' with a coworker - Marriage Builders® Forums
> 
> I think he's doing a great job fighting for his family.


This isn't about alpha vs beta, beta shaming, or any of that. Almost no one is _completely_ one or the another. One can be "alpha" and yet do "beta" things. Conversely, one can be "beta" and do "alpha" things.

That said, confronting OM like that? Pretty alpha, IMO.

Either way, if this guy is working DECISIVELY to save his family in the aftermath of -- and _in spite of_ -- his wife's affair, then good for him.

I would, however, advise him to divest himself of this "6 months to a year" bullsh*t, because there's not a damn thing decisive about that.


----------



## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> Use a scalpel here. I am. I am against plan A for men. His exposure and confrontation advice is solid.
> 
> *His limited foundation that claims infidelity only takes place when certain needs aren't being met is ludicrous as well as plan A.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Full exposure IS part of Plan A. What is so damned difficult for folks to grasp about that?

He has always stated that unmet needs can, and will, contribute to the cause of a breakdown of a marriage. I think we can all agree on that. He has never stated that the unmet needs are the sole reason for infidelity. 

He said it best (IMO) with this quote:

Adultery doesn't occur because of unmet needs. Adultery occurs when you fail to protect yourself from your own weaknesses.


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> Hmm, is this guy a "beta" male?
> 
> My wife left & is 'in love' with a coworker - Marriage Builders® Forums
> 
> I think he's doing a great job fighting for his family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am an advocate for actions like his but without taking your WW on honeymoon vacations and romancing her, competing with OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> I would, however, advise him to divest himself of this "6 months to a year" bullsh*t, because there's not a damn thing decisive about that.


I would agree as well on the 6 month part. I wouldn't do it. But the man handled this part of it like a boss. No denying that.


----------



## betrayed16

GusPolinski said:


> This isn't about alpha vs beta, beta shaming, or any of that. Almost no one is _completely_ one or the another. One can be "alpha" and yet do "beta" things. Conversely, one can be "beta" and do "alpha" things.
> 
> That said, confronting OM like that? Pretty alpha, IMO.
> 
> Either way, if this guy is working DECISIVELY to save his family in the aftermath of -- and _in spite of_ -- his wife's affair, then good for him.
> 
> I would, however, advise him to divest himself of this "6 months to a year" bullsh*t, because there's not a damn thing decisive about that.


That's different than saying that those that do Plan A should have their "man cards" revoked. I wasn't directing that post at you.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a lot of guys that do Plan A could beat the sh*t out of some fool hiding behind a keyboard claiming to be an "alpha" male.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

3putt said:


> Full exposure IS part of Plan A. What is so damned difficult for folks to grasp about that?
> 
> He has always stated that unmet needs can, and will, contribute to the cause of a breakdown of a marriage. I think we can all agree on that. He has never stated that the unmet needs are the sole reason for infidelity.
> 
> He said it best (IMO) with this quote:
> 
> Adultery doesn't occur because of unmet needs. Adultery occurs when you fail to protect yourself from your own weaknesses.


Actually, if you want to separate bone from marrow, romancing your WW in competition with OM for six months to a year is ludicrous. Exposure and confrontation is not. Happy?

I am also going off of his book which certainly does make the claims I have stated.

Cheating is a character flaw that not everyone possess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> That's different than saying that those that do Plan A should have their "man cards" revoked. I wasn't directing that post at you.
> 
> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a lot of guys that do Plan A could beat the sh*t out of some fool hiding behind a keyboard claiming to be an "alpha" male.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The ability to beat another man in a fight is not alpha.

I'm quite good at fighting and don't attribute that to anything alpha.

Some of the best fighters are extremely timid in many other aspects of life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## betrayed16

ConanHub said:


> The ability to beat another man in a fight is not alpha.
> 
> I'm quite good at fighting and don't attribute that to anything alpha.
> 
> Some of the best fighters are extremely timid in many other aspects of life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is the definition of "alpha," then? In apes, the one that all the others are afraid of is the alpha. He achieves this status due to his ability to fight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> Actually, if you want to separate bone from marrow, romancing your WW in competition with OM for six months to a year is ludicrous. Exposure and confrontation is not. Happy?
> 
> I am also going off of his book which certainly does make the claims I have stated.
> 
> Cheating is a character flaw that not everyone possess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've stated many times that I don't agree with the 6 month to 2 year part of it. But I've also stated many times that you can't criticize the MB Plan A as a whole if you eliminate the most vital part of it, which is the stick. This is something you (and others) have done consistently.

Who's really separating bone from marrow here?

And, BTW, I have his books as well. You sure leave a helluva lot out to make a point.


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> What is the definition of "alpha," then? In apes, the one that all the others are afraid of is the alpha. He achieves this status due to his ability to fight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks to another thread on TAM, I'm not sure I even know anymore but I've met, and sparred with, some very tough bruisers who got pushed around in many other areas of their lives including their relationships with women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

3putt said:


> I've stated many times that I don't agree with the 6 month to 2 year part of it. But I've also stated many times that you can't criticize the MB Plan A as a whole if you eliminate the most vital part of it, which is the stick. This is something you (and others) have done consistently.
> 
> Who's really separating bone from marrow here?
> 
> And, BTW, I have his books as well. You sure leave a helluva lot out to make a point.


Only book I am quoting is His Needs Her Needs.

How many books do you have to buy from him and how many threads on his site do you have to read to actually get all the vital information, warnings and exceptions to safely implement plan A?

I'm going off of a book that makes a lot of claims that apparently need a lot of supplemental information.

Everything I claimed in this thread can be easily gleaned from his book, with the exception of the honeymoon vacation idea which he endorsed on his site to a BH who had a WW that wouldn't give up her OM and wanted to be with both of them.

The situation I am addressing is very clearly illustrated in his book. I don't have to reach or stretch anything to make a point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I left nothing out. I have been clear which part of his plan is ludicrous.


----------



## jim123

betrayed16 said:


> These people you knew went to him in person? Or on the radio? I've NEVER heard Dr. Harley encourage someone not to divorce. It's hard for me to believe that he would have different views in one-on-one meetings than he expresses on his daily show.


It was by phone for both. He does push R very hard.

One does not brag about a high success rate by having people D.


----------



## ConanHub

3putt said:


> I've stated many times that I don't agree with the 6 month to 2 year part of it. But I've also stated many times that you can't criticize the MB Plan A as a whole if you eliminate the most vital part of it, which is the stick. This is something you (and others) have done consistently.
> 
> Who's really separating bone from marrow here?
> 
> And, BTW, I have his books as well. You sure leave a helluva lot out to make a point.


We don't even disagree. My laziness in referring to part of plan A as plan A seems to be the issue.

It was easier than saying competing with OM for six months to a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

3putt said:


> I've stated many times that I don't agree with the 6 month to 2 year part of it. But I've also stated many times that you can't criticize the MB Plan A as a whole if you eliminate the most vital part of it, which is the stick. This is something you (and others) have done consistently.
> 
> Who's really separating bone from marrow here?
> 
> And, BTW, I have his books as well. You sure leave a helluva lot out to make a point.


Honestly, once you take away the aforementioned "waiting period", this "Plan A" is awfully close to "Plan TAM".


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly, once you take away the aforementioned "waiting period", this "Plan A" is awfully close to "Plan TAM".


This.


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly, once you take away the aforementioned "waiting period", this "Plan A" is awfully close to "Plan TAM".


Isn't it though?


----------



## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> Only book I am quoting is His Needs Her Needs.
> 
> How many books do you have to buy from him and how many threads on his site do you have to read to actually get all the vital information, warnings and exceptions to safely implement plan A?
> 
> I'm going off of a book that makes a lot of claims that apparently need a lot of supplemental information.
> 
> Everything I claimed in this thread can be easily gleaned from his book, with the exception of the honeymoon vacation idea which he endorsed on his site to a BH who had a WW that wouldn't give up her OM and wanted to be with both of them.
> 
> The situation I am addressing is very clearly illustrated in his book. I don't have to reach or stretch anything to make a point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> I left nothing out. I have been clear which part of his plan is ludicrous.


Well, there's part of the problem. Dr. H himself, and certainly the message board people, would tell you that HNHN is not the book to be reading when dealing with adultery because it would indeed make it appear that the BS was cheated on because of unmet needs. That book is about building a solid foundation and understanding/identifying your spouse's needs, not dealing with infidelity. 

Using that book as a guide to battling adultery would be like using a car repair manual to bake a cake. It doesn't fit.

That's what SAA (Surviving an Affair) is for.


----------



## ConanHub

3putt said:


> Well, there's part of the problem. Dr. H himself, and certainly the message board people, would tell you that HNHN is not the book to be reading when dealing with adultery because it would indeed make it appear that the BS was cheated on because of unmet needs. That book is about building a solid foundation and understanding/identifying your spouse's needs, not dealing with infidelity.
> 
> Using that book as a guide to battling adultery would be like using a car repair manual to bake a cake. It doesn't fit.
> 
> That's what SAA (Surviving an Affair) is for.


Thanks for that. HNHN has no disclaimers and has a section called How to survive an affair. There is no reference that another book is needed.

I'll obtain a copy of SAA and continue.

I don't see him going against his advice from one book in another however.

I've actually seen a modified plan A work well with desirable results.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## betrayed16

Dr. Harley from yesterday's show: "We're all in favor of saving marriages, but there are some marriages where they will do you more harm than good." He's not a stay-married-at-all-costs proponent.

He always starts out saying that the betrayed spouse has a right to divorce. Once the person expresses a desire to save the marriage in spite of the affair, then he gives them his standard advice.


----------



## McDean

I have read a lot of useful and insightful posts/threads on here, books on my own and this 'plan' of his is bat $hit crazy plain and simple! Only an Omega could live with it, even a Beta would walk I believe....


----------



## betrayed16

Let me preface this by saying I'm not directing this at Gus or Conan. Neither of you have attacked Dr. Harley personally, only his ideas. I have seen some attacking him personally, though.

Dr. Harley doesn't need me to defend him. His work speaks for itself. I will say that he has not charged for his own counseling since he retired in the 90s. He gave me personal advice for my situation on numerous occasions, all free of charge. He never directed me to their coaching services or tried to sell me on their books or seminars. In fact, they asked me which books I owned so they could send me one for free! Joyce told me to get back in touch any time. I don't like seeing them badmouthed, because they are the most generous people I have ever come in contact with. I am self-employed, too, and I can't imagine giving my services away for free.


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> Dr. Harley from yesterday's show: "We're all in favor of saving marriages, but there are some marriages where they will do you more harm than good." He's not a stay-married-at-all-costs proponent.
> 
> He always starts out saying that the betrayed spouse has a right to divorce. Once the person expresses a desire to save the marriage in spite of the affair, then he gives them his standard advice.


Did it help with your confidence like it did SGC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## betrayed16

ConanHub said:


> Did it help with your confidence like it did SGC?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but to share more of my story, when I first discovered my ex's affair, I found Divorce Busting. I went there and was told the affair was my fault. That bunch is relentless in their shaming of the betrayed spouse. My WW had left me because I was a neanderthal that wasn't listening to her complaints about the marriage. When I found Dr. Harley and Marriage Builders, though, I learned that the affair was NOT my fault. So in that sense, yes, it built my confidence. What I have learned about affairs/relationships on MB (and TAM) has given me hope for the future. I know I'll find someone better to share my life with, and I won't make the same mistakes twice. I'm confident that my next marriage will last.


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> Let me preface this by saying I'm not directing this at Gus or Conan. Neither of you have attacked Dr. Harley personally, only his ideas. I have seen some attacking him personally, though.
> 
> Dr. Harley doesn't need me to defend him. His work speaks for itself. I will say that he has not charged for his own counseling since he retired in the 90s. He gave me personal advice for my situation on numerous occasions, all free of charge. He never directed me to their coaching services or tried to sell me on their books or seminars. In fact, they asked me which books I owned so they could send me one for free! Joyce told me to get back in touch any time. I don't like seeing them badmouthed, because they are the most generous people I have ever come in contact with. I am self-employed, too, and I can't imagine giving my services away for free.


I agree with him on many points about marriage and a few about infidelity. I won't comment on his character but will take your word that he is generally a good man. His site does not entertain any dissent from his point of view however, and there are horror stories of incredible damage that will never make it onto his site, not even as cautionary tales.

I would appreciate far more disclaimers about the full implementation of plan A. Anytime it is promoted, there should be serious caution given and what can go terribly wrong as well as danger signs to look out for.

I am sure many pro MB will tell me there already are warnings in place but I haven't seen any in HNHN or in reading many parts of his advice for infidelity on MB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

I appreciate the feedback and input from the responses on this thread.

Just because I'm a hard headed sob doesn't mean my view doesn't change with more information.

I hadn't seen anything other than undesirable results with plan A.

I'm going to research more. I won't ever condone a BS entering into competition with an AP for a WS as the prize. Ridiculous. I don't think it sets things right in a WS and their thought process about their actions.

To those that suggested I read conversations on that site and testimonials, I will. It is still a biased site however and that is why I was looking for actual participants or witnesses of plan A attempts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CTPlay

betrayed16 said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but to share more of my story, when I first discovered my ex's affair, I found Divorce Busting. I went there and was told the affair was my fault. That bunch is relentless in their shaming of the betrayed spouse. My WW had left me because I was a neanderthal that wasn't listening to her complaints about the marriage. When I found Dr. Harley and Marriage Builders, though, I learned that the affair was NOT my fault. So in that sense, yes, it built my confidence. What I have learned about affairs/relationships on MB (and TAM) has given me hope for the future. I know I'll find someone better to share my life with, and I won't make the same mistakes twice. I'm confident that my next marriage will last.


Divorce Busting, more secret sauce techniques?


----------



## Broken at 20

ConanHub said:


> I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.
> 
> I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.
> 
> Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically.
> 
> I think this is possibly the most idiotic idea I have ever heard but I am open minded.
> 
> Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?
> 
> What were the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, non-biodad doesn't talk to me, so this view is likely...incorrect at the very least. 

And I won't embarrass him further with the details of our last conversation, but I will say he didn't follow the TAM approach to affair busting. 

As for the results:
Cheated after 20 years, likely due to built up resentment and anger
Divorced and try to cheat the wife out of large amounts of alimony (which in hindsight, is totally understandable)
Strained relationship with his son (not me)
Cut off the [email protected]@rd (me)

So...yea. 
That's how it worked out. 

Such great advice Dr. Harley 

And by the way, is Dr. Harley the full name? Or was something left off, like...Dr. Harley Quinn?


----------



## 3putt

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, non-biodad doesn't talk to me, so this view is likely...incorrect at the very least.
> 
> And I won't embarrass him further with the details of our last conversation, but I will say he didn't follow the TAM approach to affair busting.
> 
> As for the results:
> Cheated after 20 years, likely due to built up resentment and anger
> Divorced and try to cheat the wife out of large amounts of alimony (which in hindsight, is totally understandable)
> Strained relationship with his son (not me)
> Cut off the [email protected]@rd (me)
> 
> So...yea.
> That's how it worked out.
> 
> Such great advice Dr. Harley
> 
> And by the way, is Dr. Harley the full name? Or was something left off, like...Dr. Harley Quinn?


Would you care to enlighten us how any of what you went through (as sad as it is) had anything to do with MB and Dr. Harley? Or do you just choose to lash out at anything you know very little to nothing about (like others here) just to make yourself feel bigger, badder, and better?

What's the purpose of your post? What do you actually know about MB and how does it pertain to you?


----------



## Broken at 20

> Would you care to enlighten us how any of what you went through (as sad as it is) had anything to do with MB and Dr. Harley? Or do you just choose to lash out at anything you know very little to nothing about (like others here) just to make yourself feel bigger, badder, and better?
> 
> What's the purpose of your post? What do you actually know about MB and how does it pertain to you?


Conan asked for the results of men who competed for their wife's affection after discovering she had an affair. Because he seemed to believe the advice being given by Dr. Harley to compete for such affection from the WW was a bad idea. 

Therefore, I provided an example of a man who did that. My non-father competed to try and get my mom back into the marriage. While I am sure not everything followed Dr. Harley's suggestion, the basic idea of competing and trying to 'nice' the wife back into the marriage was followed by my non-dad. 

Then I describe the current state of the marriage that was saved in a manner like Dr. Harley suggest a BH save a marriage. 

I didn't think I was lashing out at anyone. I simply stated facts as witnessed by me, since I can't get the first-person view of how the marriage went. 
And made a joke off Dr. Harley's name. Mostly because I love Harley Quinn. 

If I had truly lashed out, I feel like the moderators would probably send me a friendly PM, that accompanied a forced vacation.


----------



## ConanHub

Thanks for sharing Broken. It was at least an eye witness account of competing with an AP for a WWs affection. Not a full plan A but there were damn few examples given here.

It was definitely the competition component of plan A that I find troublesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

Broken at 20 said:


> Conan asked for the results of men who competed for their wife's affection after discovering she had an affair. Because he seemed to believe the advice being given by Dr. Harley to compete for such affection from the WW was a bad idea.
> 
> Therefore, I provided an example of a man who did that. My non-father competed to try and get my mom back into the marriage. While I am sure not everything followed Dr. Harley's suggestion, the basic idea of competing and trying to 'nice' the wife back into the marriage was followed by my non-dad.
> 
> Then I describe the current state of the marriage that was saved in a manner like Dr. Harley suggest a BH save a marriage.
> 
> I didn't think I was lashing out at anyone. I simply stated facts as witnessed by me, since I can't get the first-person view of how the marriage went.
> And made a joke off Dr. Harley's name. Mostly because I love Harley Quinn.
> 
> If I had truly lashed out, I feel like the moderators would probably send me a friendly PM, that accompanied a forced vacation.


Did he do what he did because of what he read on MB or not? Or did he just free wheel it on his own because it came naturally to him?


----------



## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> Thanks for sharing Broken. It was at least an eye witness account of competing with an AP for a WWs affection. Not a full plan A but there were damn few examples given here.
> 
> It was definitely the competition component of plan A that I find troublesome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are plenty of examples of successes of MB Plan A, Conan. All you have to do is go over there and read.


----------



## ConanHub

3putt said:


> There are plenty of examples of successes of MB Plan A, Conan. All you have to do is go over there and read.


All you have to do is give your own account. You don't have one though.

Get some sleep you're beating a dead horse.

I was looking for accounts from the folks here. Dissenting views are allowed here unlike MB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I also said I will read some accounts over there.


----------



## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> All you have to do is give your own account. You don't have one though.
> 
> Get some sleep you're beating a dead horse.
> 
> I was looking for accounts from the folks here. Dissenting views are allowed here unlike MB.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> I also said I will read some accounts over there.


_I'm_ beating a dead horse, huh?

Okay, whatever you say then.


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> Hmm, is this guy a "beta" male?
> 
> My wife left & is 'in love' with a coworker - Marriage Builders® Forums
> 
> I think he's doing a great job fighting for his family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read up on him. Not going so well. He would have way better success with blowing up her world by cutting off all his support and stop meeting her basic emotional needs. 

She has lost all respect for him. OM is a coward and extremely pathetic. She is just as pathetic and so is the BH in this story.

This woman needs slapped awake not coddled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

That site also turns my stomach because instead of allowing dissent and relying on the solidity of their advice to prevail, they treat those with differing views like naughty, not particularly bright children and delete their posts while assuring the "stupid child" that they know best.

Even if I agree with the particular piece of advice they are giving at the time, it certainly doesn't instill confidence when they treat a different point of view like a disease that must be quickly eradicated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## betrayed16

ConanHub said:


> That site also turns my stomach because instead of allowing dissent and relying on the solidity of their advice to prevail, they treat those with differing views like naughty, not particularly bright children and delete their posts while assuring the "stupid child" that they know best.
> 
> Even if I agree with the particular piece of advice they are giving at the time, it certainly doesn't instill confidence when they treat a different point of view like a disease that must be quickly eradicated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But the purpose of that site is not to share personal philosophies. Its stated purpose is to help posters apply Dr. Harley's principles to their marriages/situations. If people were allowed to offer contradictory advice it would defeat the purpose. So yes, even long time posters are moderated if they deviate from Dr. Harley's advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## betrayed16

ConanHub said:


> I read up on him. Not going so well. He would have way better success with blowing up her world by cutting off all his support and stop meeting her basic emotional needs.
> 
> She has lost all respect for him. OM is a coward and extremely pathetic. She is just as pathetic and so is the BH in this story.
> 
> This woman needs slapped awake not coddled.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She had an affair because she had already lost respect for him. It's way too early to write him off. He's still got exposure targets he hasn't reached. The OM is a loser, and the fantasy has been demolished. It's only a matter of time now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

betrayed16 said:


> She had an affair because she had already lost respect for him. It's way too early to write him off. He's still got exposure targets he hasn't reached. The OM is a loser, and the fantasy has been demolished. It's only a matter of time now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll keep checking but the BH is not coming off as strong at all to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

I have not read the thread so what I am about to say may not apply...that said...

Being strong often times includes doing things that may not _appear_ strong. At least, not until much, much later...


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> I have not read the thread so what I am about to say may not apply...that said...
> 
> Being strong often times includes doing things that may not _appear_ strong. At least, not until much, much later...


The BH is extremely pathetic with his WW. Feeling heartbroken when she wanted him to leave his own house and let OM move in with her and their child. Instead he should have shown controlled anger and imposed consequences for her truly disgusting behavior. She comes home and plays house for the week and visits OM on the weekend.

When the BH asked his WW if they were having sex, she got angry, said no,(HA!) and told him if she was it wasn't any of his business.

B1tch needs slapped super hard, not treated warmly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

betrayed16 said:


> But the purpose of that site is not to share personal philosophies. Its stated purpose is to help posters apply Dr. Harley's principles to their marriages/situations. If people were allowed to offer contradictory advice it would defeat the purpose. So yes, even long time posters are moderated if they deviate from Dr. Harley's advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. It's Dr. Harley's site, he can run it anyway he sees fit. You don't have to read there if you don't like it.


----------



## ocotillo

soccermom2three said:


> I agree. It's Dr. Harley's site, he can run it anyway he sees fit. You don't have to read there if you don't like it.


That's true, but at the same time there is a stigma attached to censorship in academia. 

If the man holds a PhD in his chosen field, he knows full well what that means.


----------



## IIJokerII

Holding a PHD in the means of the unpredictable nature of human behavior is both useful and useless. We will all pull our hand away from a burning hot surface but how we deal with it afterwards is another matter altogether. 

I agree with most opinions here. MB can and does save many marriages. But the people involved think or thought the juice was worth the squeeze. Here at TAM and at Chumplady the betrayed are encouraged to go on the offensive and reclaim their self respect and in reality reconcile with themselves. I tried the MB way as the path of the proposed methods would have yielded what I wanted, a recovered and healthy marriage. Exposure, omiting acknowledgement of my hurt emotions and the overwhelming aspect of taking on more responseability due to her non involvement with our household got me nowhere and in fact made things worse. 

Until I swallowed the truth and put the honus of the effort on her did I start my ascension out of my marital misery. And in the end, what the does the betrayed man or woman get back after they "Decide" to come back to the marriage? SOmething broken, deep down, prone to at least be known to hurt others with abandon to meet their needs. Chump lady details this as a unicorn. Most couples that reconcile do so out of convienance, not causality. But in either way one looks at it, there is no blanket way to tackle infidelity. Take the Bruce lee path, go with what works for you, ignore the rest.


----------



## turnera

Reading HNHN was the best thing I ever did for my marriage. It explained SO much. And its forum WOULD have been an amazing experience...IF it were as open-minded as TAM. Unfortunately it's run by a bunch of NAZIs on a power trip who refuse to listen to anything else and who rule with an iron fist. 

I went there first and learned a lot. Then I was banned - haven't we all been? - and found TAM. And realized what a truly helpful forum can look like. And what I've developed as MY preferred method of advice is a combination of Harley's methods - aligned with a little bit of NMMNG, MMSLP, The Dance Of Anger, and Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. as well. 

I think Harley serves marriages well AS LONG AS there is no major dysfunction (abuse, BPD, etc.). But if there is, addressing THAT is simply essential, first.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Personally I find Esther Perel's influential advice the worse (below)...all her "rethinking of Infidelity" -pushing boundaries somehow can be GOOD for marriage... only in today's world would something like this be applauded... a shame she is so highly praised... 

I'll take Harley's advice any day over hers...not that I've ever read or felt he suggested being cuckheld though... what Elegirl wrote -from her perspective having spent much time on his website, this sounds reasonable in his defense.. 

Is anyone faithful anymore? Infidelity in the 21st century - 
Modern life presents us with numerous ways to cheat: texts, direct messages, or plain old-fashioned affairs. But is infidelity really betrayal? Radical couples therapist Esther Perel reveals why it might be exactly what your relationship needs 



> This is what Esther Perel does. She re-spins affairs, throws new light on them, offers completely new perspectives. She can make affairs seem positive: "I have a client who says it is a facelift and antidepressant in one – but much cheaper!" She can make them seem inevitable, the consequence of our intense, heightened, essentially unrealistic expectations of romantic love: "The men and women I work with invest more in love and happiness than ever before, yet in a cruel twist of fate it is this very model of love and sex that's behind the exponential rise of infidelity and divorce. Fascination and disillusion stare at each other."
> 
> She can transform the revelation of infidelity into the catalyst for the rebirth of a relationship: "The standard ideas that affairs deplete intimacy, that affairs deplete the marriage, they are always harmful – I say: this is one possibility. But there are others. Affairs also are enormously enlivening. Re-eroticising. They balance the marriage. People who have affairs don't always want to leave the marriage. Sometimes, often, they are looking for a way to stay!"
> 
> And perhaps most surprisingly, most controversially, she takes the traditional cliche of the faithless man or woman and refashions it: "When you have an affair, this is rebellion! This is not a mild act! We have affairs to beat back the sense of deadness. We have affairs not because we are looking for another person, but because we are looking for another version of ourselves. It's not our partner we seek to leave with the affair, it's ourselves. It's what I've become that I don't like. It's how I've truncated myself. That there are parts of me that I have been so out of touch with, for decades… And of course, we live twice as long. We are different with different people."


----------



## DayOne

Zombies!


----------



## MattMatt

Sadly this is still relevant.

Not every old thread is automatically a zombie threaf.


----------



## MJJEAN

ConanHub said:


> Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?
> 
> What were the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My exH tried that. The result was multiple affairs until I met someone I didn't want to live without and left him.


----------



## Mr The Other

ConanHub said:


> I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.
> 
> I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.
> 
> Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically.
> 
> I think this is possibly the most idiotic idea I have ever heard but I am open minded.
> 
> Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?
> 
> What were the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It comes from I think two major issues that haunt anglo-saxon feminism and relationship advice.

Anglo-Saxon feminism can still not conceive in many cases of a dynamic in which the woman is not just passive and the man the agent of will. In this context, the woman must be passively reacting. The man is therefore the agent of change and responsible for making things right. 

This bleeds into relationship advice, where the woman is a passive object. Just as you can till a garden, understand its needs and make it bloom, so a woman treated and understood in the right way will bloom into a beautiful relationship.

It neglects that both the man and woman are active agents and sentient beings.


----------



## manwithnoname

MJJEAN said:


> My exH tried that. The result was multiple affairs until I met someone I didn't want to live without and left him.


So it may only work occasionally, and only if the fog wears off. 

What if your exH did everything that "works" the best overall? Would that have made any difference?


----------



## Ynot

So it seems Dr Harley's advice can be distilled down to: "you can say yes and if that doesn't work you can say no" and then no matter what the answer is, he can claim success and sell more books, because his advice worked.


----------



## MJJEAN

manwithnoname said:


> So it may only work occasionally, and only if the fog wears off.
> 
> What if your exH did everything that "works" the best overall? Would that have made any difference?


Honestly, no.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

There is a lot of tough love mixed in to the Plan A 

Expose- as far and wide as possible
No contact letter, moving if needed, changing jobs 

Then once you move to the repairing marriage portion

Strict open and honesty
No alone independent time or recreational activities 
10-20 hours a week alone time 
Meeting all needs

I think one thing missing from other stopping an affair advice is how to maintain and repair the marriage after. How to rebuild love and fix the problems that made the marriage vulnerable 

His advice will work on specific types of affairs and relationships but not all. 
His theory is based on people cheating largely due to unmet needs. 


The point is to repair the marriage as a whole while stopping the affair. 

If the BS doesn't want to repair the marriage or be in it anymore after they cheated, divorce. Him saying he would isn't proof it doesn't work it is just proof not everyone wants to continue the marriage after an affair and if you're in this group, divorce. Nothing wrong with it. I've seen him recommend divorce a number of times. 

If you're in the group of wanting to stay and wanting your spouse back, it does work for a lot of couples who have a very good long term success rate when they continue to follow his other basic concepts.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There is a lot of tough love mixed in to the Plan A
> 
> Expose- as far and wide as possible
> No contact letter, moving if needed, changing jobs
> 
> Then once you move to the repairing marriage portion
> 
> Strict open and honesty
> No alone independent time or recreational activities
> 10-20 hours a week alone time
> Meeting all needs
> 
> I think one thing missing from other stopping an affair advice is how to maintain and repair the marriage after. How to rebuild love and fix the problems that made the marriage vulnerable
> 
> His advice will work on specific types of affairs and relationships but not all.
> His theory is based on people cheating largely due to unmet needs.
> 
> 
> The point is to repair the marriage as a whole while stopping the affair.
> 
> If the BS doesn't want to repair the marriage or be in it anymore after they cheated, divorce. Him saying he would isn't proof it doesn't work it is just proof not everyone wants to continue the marriage after an affair and if you're in this group, divorce. Nothing wrong with it. I've seen him recommend divorce a number of times.
> 
> If you're in the group of wanting to stay and wanting your spouse back, it does work for a lot of couples who have a very good long term success rate when they continue to follow his other basic concepts.


That's Plan B 

PLan A is straight cuckold.


----------



## ReturntoZero

ButtPunch said:


> That's Plan B
> 
> PLan A is straight cuckold.


I can tell you for a fact that "meeting the needs" of my borderline spouse simply creates a report card with an "F" on it and the next set of jobs given out.


----------



## TAMAT

ConanHub wrote at the start of this thread, 

* I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.

I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.*

I think that is partially untrue because he does encourage betrayed spouses to act, to expose the affair, to confront the OM and even to separate and start the divorce process particularly in the case of a serial cheater. This is not what a passive cuckold does.

Unfortunately the MB website is now very narrow in focus and intolerant of multiple viewpoints, but at one time it was a a valuable resource which saved my marriage, but that was back in 2008.

You can possibly find some worthwhile insights if you look back far enough in time in the postings however.

Tamat


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> That's Plan B
> 
> PLan A is straight cuckold.


No 

Plan B is strict no contact. Go dark. No communication at all even have someone else to deal with the children issues. 

Plan A includes exposure and requiring a no contact letter


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No
> 
> Plan B is strict no contact. Go dark. No communication at all even have someone else to deal with the children issues.
> 
> Plan A includes exposure and requiring a no contact letter


Well it has been five years since I read it. 

Or tried to read it...i think i got 3/4 done and
my stomach couldn't take any more.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I can't search the site on my phone apparently but you can search 
Carrot and stick plan A 

There's very much a stick portion of it including full exposure and requiring no contact letter, changing jobs, etc


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I can't search the site on my phone apparently but you can search
> Carrot and stick plan A
> 
> There's very much a stick portion of it including full exposure and requiring no contact letter, changing jobs, etc


...and when none of that works, be a cuckold.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> ...and when none of that works, be a cuckold.


No, when none of that works you Plan B for your own sanity and then divorce. He's said many times. He promotes divorce when it doesn't work. 

I get that his program isn't for everyone but just being a cuckhold isn't what his plan is. He's quite specific in the steps and it has worked long term for many.


----------



## MyRevelation

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No, when none of that works you Plan B for your own sanity and then divorce. He's said many times. He promotes divorce when it doesn't work.
> 
> I get that his program isn't for everyone but just being a cuckhold isn't what his plan is. He's quite specific in the steps and it has worked long term for many.


No ... he says to keep up Plan A for 6 months for BH's, regardless of the effectiveness of Plan A BS ... that puts a BH squarely in Cuckholdville ... his WW is still cheating and he's doing the pick me dance.

Harley's advice is designed to keep people in perpetual limbo ... that way he gets hits on his website, sells more books and books more seminars, etc. He's a snake oil salesman pure and simple. His BS may work for BW's, but they're soul crushing for BH's.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

6 months is a maximum, not a minimum. He's very clear about that. Do not go over 6 months. He does not say you must do it for 6 months

Hate his program all you want but it seems many who do don't actually know what it even is or says.


----------



## MyRevelation

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 6 months is a maximum, not a minimum. He's very clear about that. Do not go over 6 months. He does not say you must do it for 6 months
> 
> Hate his program all you want but it seems many who do don't actually know what it even is or says.


Honestly, I don't need you to interpret what I've seen, heard and read myself. 

... and after reading jdr8's thread, it appears you may have reached your destination.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

His radio program very often has him telling BH to stop the Plan A because it's not working and go directly to Plan B. Him saying, his own words. He does not tell men to do it for 6 months, he says to *not do it longer than 6 months*. That's not interpretation, that's what he is saying. 

He is very specific about the carrot and stick angle of the Plan A. It is not just "be nice and beg your wife back" 

An actual conversation about his methods would require people actually knowing what he is promoting and not these assumptions.


----------



## TJW

My wife and I are both the victims of extramarital affairs which ended the marriage. We both tried "plan A" (even though we didn't know of Dr. Harley) and it didn't work. I think the previous poster is right. It works when there are affairs prompted by unmet needs. However, when the cheater is just a plain-old selfish scoundrel, it has no purpose except further cuckolding.

I think if Dr. Harley had been consulted about our marriages at the time, the recommendation would have clearly been to go right to plan B. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

We both agreed before our wedding that 3 things would immediately END our marriage: 1) physical violence; 2) adultery; 3) felony conviction even if unrelated to the partner.
There will be no counseling, no pastors, no therapists, and no discussion. END. Period. And, there will be no reconciliation. Ever. One, and done. One strike, you're out.

Plan A can serve more purpose for the betrayed spouse than the wayward spouse. Some of us fools just have to "make sure" we "left no stone unturned"
in favor of our marriage.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

TJW said:


> My wife and I are both the victims of extramarital affairs which ended the marriage. We both tried "plan A" (even though we didn't know of Dr. Harley) and it didn't work. I think the previous poster is right. It works when there are affairs prompted by unmet needs. However, when the cheater is just a plain-old selfish scoundrel, it has no purpose except cuckolding.
> 
> We both agreed before our wedding that 3 things would immediately END our marriage: 1) physical violence; 2) adultery; 3) felony conviction even if unrelated to the partner.
> There will be no counseling, no pastors, no therapists, and no discussion. END. Period. And, there will be no reconciliation. Ever. One, and done. One strike, you're out.


Yes, it would only work for affairs which stemmed from a vulnerable marriage with unmet needs and who's BS wants to continue with the marriage. For serial cheaters and ones who just cheat even though their needs are met at home he usually just says divorce. Same with anyone who doesn't want to R, like him himself. 

I believe his plan works for many but like you, with my BF any cheating on either end would immediately end things. No trying and no second chance.


----------



## ButtPunch

Dr. Harley's success rate is actually worse than the success rate
of two people who reconcile on their own. He's a money making fraud
in my opinion.


----------



## ReturntoZero

ButtPunch said:


> Well it has been five years since I read it.
> 
> Or tried to read it...i think i got 3/4 done and
> my stomach couldn't take any more.


If I recall, you then phoned your safe man.


----------



## ButtPunch

ReturntoZero said:


> If I recall, you then phoned your safe man.


I trust him much more than Dr. Harley, plus he's free


----------



## ReturntoZero

ButtPunch said:


> Dr. Harley's success rate is actually worse than the success rate
> of two people who reconcile on their own. He's a money making fraud
> in my opinion.


His book on unmet needs is eye-opening.

What he doesn't tell you is that "overdoing it" as a codependent actually creates resentment.

Been there - done that.

No desire to hijack - but it is an old thread.

My BPD bride actually appreciates the fact that I look after her nutritional needs - NOW that she recognizes she has an eating disorder.

So, those acts of service actually work the way they're supposed to.

As my safe man once said, "It's about breaking the code"


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> Personally I find Esther Perel's influential advice the worse (below)...all her "rethinking of Infidelity" -pushing boundaries somehow can be GOOD for marriage... only in today's world would something like this be applauded... a shame she is so highly praised...
> 
> I'll take Harley's advice any day over hers...not that I've ever read or felt he suggested being cuckheld though... what Elegirl wrote -from her perspective having spent much time on his website, this sounds reasonable in his defense..
> 
> Is anyone faithful anymore? Infidelity in the 21st century -
> Modern life presents us with numerous ways to cheat: texts, direct messages, or plain old-fashioned affairs. But is infidelity really betrayal? Radical couples therapist Esther Perel reveals why it might be exactly what your relationship needs


There are a few truths in life, one of them is never marry Esther Perel.


----------



## sokillme

Too many people put to much weight in having a SO. It's sad. I would rather have peace of mind. A SO can help that our hinder that. Personally I believe a man is a cuckold or he is not. In the end if you stay, it's where you want to be in my mind. He would rather have the pain for whatever he gets out of the broken relationship. People take drugs knowing in the end they are going to end up dead. Really no different.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 6 months is a maximum, not a minimum. He's very clear about that. Do not go over 6 months. He does not say you must do it for 6 months
> 
> Hate his program all you want but it seems many who do don't actually know what it even is or says.


There is a lot of denial and a general lack of willingness to understand surrounding infidelity. This is largely the reason for my staying out of most of the topics on this particular topic. 

When a person cheats, it is a devastating betrayal. We GET this. I mean, I certainly get this as it has happened to me. The desire to totally lambaste the WS does make sense in the early stages of grief. But as you pass the months of reconciling and healing, it does not make sense to me why people hold so firmly to the need to blame. YES character and integrity have failed when a person cheats. But having been in a relationship plagued by crippling loneliness and doubt, I can empathize with people who fail in this way. 

Marriage is such a complicated thing. People see issues as not intertwined. My wife is leaving me/has cheated on me. I don't understand why. I never hit her. I made money. My husband always wants sex, but I feel like he never gives me any attention unless he wants to get laid. My spouse of unspecified gender does not understand how much I don't feel supported by external pressure x that is killing me. These issues are ALL intertwined. And if you run across someone who takes your breath away, it feels like something so fabulous. When a person is starving, a saltine looks delicious. (Yes, I know I use that a lot. It is relevant.)

It is a bit sad. Rather than look at the whole relationship dynamic, people look to blame. Responsibility for the act of cheating clearly lay with the WS. But responsibility for the degradation of the marriage and loving feelings therein can often lie with both. The resistance to being BLAMED (not terribly useful) is so powerful that it is an obstacle to learning.

Anyway, I have no knowledge of the advice to just let their AP roll. Given a marriage with kids, a house, and a dog, I am not sure I would kick my husband to the curb right away if he cheated. But if he woke up and smelled the coffee, I could probably see my way clear to working through it.


----------



## ButtPunch

We are each responsible for our own happiness.

If your relationship is starving, that's on you.

You can blame your partner and play the victim.

Be a martyr and stay for the kids.

Your spouse can't make you happy, money can't make you
happy, careers can't make you happy....only you can.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

NobodySpecial said:


> There is a lot of denial and a general lack of willingness to understand surrounding infidelity. This is largely the reason for my staying out of most of the topics on this particular topic.
> 
> When a person cheats, it is a devastating betrayal. We GET this. I mean, I certainly get this as it has happened to me. The desire to totally lambaste the WS does make sense in the early stages of grief. But as you pass the months of reconciling and healing, it does not make sense to me why people hold so firmly to the need to blame. YES character and integrity have failed when a person cheats. But having been in a relationship plagued by crippling loneliness and doubt, I can empathize with people who fail in this way.
> 
> Marriage is such a complicated thing. People see issues as not intertwined. My wife is leaving me/has cheated on me. I don't understand why. I never hit her. I made money. My husband always wants sex, but I feel like he never gives me any attention unless he wants to get laid. My spouse of unspecified gender does not understand how much I don't feel supported by external pressure x that is killing me. These issues are ALL intertwined. And if you run across someone who takes your breath away, it feels like something so fabulous. When a person is starving, a saltine looks delicious. (Yes, I know I use that a lot. It is relevant.)
> 
> It is a bit sad. Rather than look at the whole relationship dynamic, people look to blame. Responsibility for the act of cheating clearly lay with the WS. But responsibility for the degradation of the marriage and loving feelings therein can often lie with both. The resistance to being BLAMED (not terribly useful) is so powerful that it is an obstacle to learning.
> 
> Anyway, I have no knowledge of the advice to just let their AP roll. Given a marriage with kids, a house, and a dog, I am not sure I would kick my husband to the curb right away if he cheated. But if he woke up and smelled the coffee, I could probably see my way clear to working through it.


I think all this is very well said. 
I see men talking in the SIM section about being so desperate for touch and a woman who just wants them that outsourcing sex often gets stuck in their head. Lonely people, unmet needs. Everyone knows the best choice is to divorce first, they are dead inside and if someone comes along that wakes them up it can be a powerful, addictive force. ITA that "When a person is starving, a saltine looks delicious" and I think his program and website is first and foremost dedicated to not starving your spouse.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No, when none of that works you Plan B for your own sanity and then divorce. He's said many times. He promotes divorce when it doesn't work.
> 
> I get that his program isn't for everyone but just being a cuckhold isn't what his plan is. He's quite specific in the steps and it has worked long term for many.


His plan summarized...

Be a cuckold until you can't stand it anymore.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> His plan summarized...
> 
> Be a cuckold until you can't stand it anymore.


No. But I'm gonna guess you don't actually care about what his real plan is so spending all the time getting his actual plan and the carrot and stick portion and all that would be pointless. So just no. 

But no one is forced to use his methods, if you don't like them then don't use them. Some people like it and have been helped. I wouldn't discourage someone from using them if they wanted to. Their forum is.... cult like. I wish they had a better group of people there to discuss things with but the website in general is a huge help for some people.


----------



## ButtPunch

Dr. Harley even admits his plan A success rate is 15%.

I feel sorry for all 100% of them who try it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ButtPunch said:


> We are each responsible for our own happiness.
> 
> If your relationship is starving, that's on you.


The very nature of a relationship is its interplay between people. That's why it is a relationship:

"the way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected."



> You can *blame *your partner and play the victim.
> 
> Be a martyr and stay for the kids.


I am curious. How long have you been/were you married? How many inter connected pieces did your marriage and family have? Were you always so clear sighted? Know which priorities are the highest? Or which route is most likely to yield success? I am fairly suspicious of people who think things are that clear cut. They tend to be missing huge swatches of the reality. I suppose it is easier to just focus on blame, right? Then one does not have to examine their own reality in the connection that failed.



> Your spouse can't make you happy, money can't make you
> happy, careers can't make you happy....only you can.


So far, clarity on that fact is largely based neither DH nor I caring very much of the blame I mention as a detrimental factor in problem solving.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No. But I'm gonna guess you don't actually care about what his real plan is so spending all the time getting his actual plan and the carrot and stick portion and all that would be pointless. So just no.


Actually, yes.

Because the details don't matter when the end result is waiting around for your spouse to get tired of banging someone else.

That's actually a big deal to most people.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But no one is forced to use his methods, if you don't like them then don't use them. Some people like it and have been helped. I wouldn't discourage someone from using them if they wanted to. Their forum is.... cult like. I wish they had a better group of people there to discuss things with but the website in general is a huge help for some people.


I'd imagine it's a great help to plenty of people with little to no self-respect.


----------



## Thor

The forums on his website seem to tilt strongly towards cuckholdery, perhaps more than Dr. Harley himself does. 

Successes of his plan notwithstanding, I find his methodology to be death to the Nice Guy. This would be the man who fits the definition of a Nice Guy by Dr. Glover. This man has some dysfunctional thought processes, which puts him in a death spiral if he follows the marriage builders forum advice.

In a randomly selected situation, I believe the TAM approach would have a higher likelihood of successful R. Different personalities and situations do call for different approaches.


----------



## ButtPunch

NobodySpecial said:


> The very nature of a relationship is its interplay between people. That's why it is a relationship:
> 
> "the way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected."
> 
> 
> I am curious. How long have you been/were you married? How many inter connected pieces did your marriage and family have? Were you always so clear sighted? Know which priorities are the highest? Or which route is most likely to yield success? I am fairly suspicious of people who think things are that clear cut. They tend to be missing huge swatches of the reality. I suppose it is easier to just focus on blame, right? Then one does not have to examine their own reality in the connection that failed.
> 
> 
> 
> So far, clarity on that fact is largely based neither DH nor I caring very much of the blame I mention as a detrimental factor in problem solving.


Married once and on our 17th year.

No I wasn't always clear sighted.

It took many months of therapy.

It all starts with loving yourself. 

Lots of people have a hard time doing this. 

We are all shaped by unmet needs.

It starts with our parents, spouses, friends etc.

People who love themselves and have unmet needs are generally happy.

People who do not love themselves have unmet needs well that spells trouble.

People who love themselves who are mistreated or abused and never get their needs met.

They get divorced.


----------



## Ynot

NobodySpecial said:


> There is a lot of denial and a general lack of willingness to understand surrounding infidelity. This is largely the reason for my staying out of most of the topics on this particular topic.
> 
> When a person cheats, it is a devastating betrayal. We GET this. I mean, I certainly get this as it has happened to me. The desire to totally lambaste the WS does make sense in the early stages of grief. But as you pass the months of reconciling and healing, it does not make sense to me why people hold so firmly to the need to blame. YES character and integrity have failed when a person cheats. But having been in a relationship plagued by crippling loneliness and doubt, I can empathize with people who fail in this way.
> 
> Marriage is such a complicated thing. People see issues as not intertwined. My wife is leaving me/has cheated on me. I don't understand why. I never hit her. I made money. My husband always wants sex, but I feel like he never gives me any attention unless he wants to get laid. My spouse of unspecified gender does not understand how much I don't feel supported by external pressure x that is killing me. These issues are ALL intertwined. And if you run across someone who takes your breath away, it feels like something so fabulous. When a person is starving, a saltine looks delicious. (Yes, I know I use that a lot. It is relevant.)
> 
> It is a bit sad. Rather than look at the whole relationship dynamic, people look to blame. Responsibility for the act of cheating clearly lay with the WS. But responsibility for the degradation of the marriage and loving feelings therein can often lie with both. The resistance to being BLAMED (not terribly useful) is so powerful that it is an obstacle to learning.
> 
> Anyway, I have no knowledge of the advice to just let their AP roll. Given a marriage with kids, a house, and a dog, I am not sure I would kick my husband to the curb right away if he cheated. But if he woke up and smelled the coffee, I could probably see my way clear to working through it.


Yes, the blame is never 100% on one side. Few people ever stop to consider, and learn, from their portion of the blame


----------



## ReturntoZero

ButtPunch said:


> Married once and on our 17th year.
> 
> No I wasn't always clear sighted.
> 
> It took many months of therapy.
> 
> It all starts with loving yourself.
> 
> Lots of people have a hard time doing this.
> 
> We are all shaped by unmet needs.
> 
> It starts with our parents, spouses, friends etc.
> 
> People who love themselves and have unmet needs are generally happy.
> 
> People who do not love themselves have unmet needs well that spells trouble.
> 
> People who love themselves who are mistreated or abused and never get their needs met.
> 
> They get divorced.


Suitable for framing.

The funny thing is, I realize my wife is simply not in love with herself.

That doesn't mean I can't/don't love me.

And, it also doesn't mean I sit still and allow her to dump her anger.

I'm great at hearing about her feelings, as long as the word "you" isn't involved.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Ynot said:


> Yes, the blame is never 100% on one side. Few people ever stop to consider, and learn, from their portion of the blame


To me this is the most important part of his plan, repairing the whole marriage and where it went wrong and became vulnerable instead of straight one sided blame. 

He outlines how and why many affairs happen and puts plans in place to avoid the situations.


----------



## farsidejunky

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There is a lot of tough love mixed in to the Plan A
> 
> Expose- as far and wide as possible
> No contact letter, moving if needed, changing jobs
> 
> Then once you move to the repairing marriage portion
> 
> Strict open and honesty
> No alone independent time or recreational activities
> 10-20 hours a week alone time
> Meeting all needs
> 
> I think one thing missing from other stopping an affair advice is how to maintain and repair the marriage after. How to rebuild love and fix the problems that made the marriage vulnerable
> 
> His advice will work on specific types of affairs and relationships but not all.
> His theory is based on people cheating largely due to unmet needs.
> 
> 
> The point is to repair the marriage as a whole while stopping the affair.
> 
> If the BS doesn't want to repair the marriage or be in it anymore after they cheated, divorce. Him saying he would isn't proof it doesn't work it is just proof not everyone wants to continue the marriage after an affair and if you're in this group, divorce. Nothing wrong with it. I've seen him recommend divorce a number of times.
> 
> If you're in the group of wanting to stay and wanting your spouse back, it does work for a lot of couples who have a very good long term success rate when they continue to follow his other basic concepts.


This sounds good in theory, but it does not happen in the snap of a finger. Exposure happens, then weeks to months elapse with the WS continuing on with the AP, as the BS desperately tries to understand why the A is still active. It is gut wrenching to read about, let alone live in. 

In my time on various marriage sites (minus MB in fairness), I can only think one one situation where Plan A (or similar) actually worked. Every other situation was a long, slow path to madness for the BS. 

No person on Earth is worth sacrificing self respect like that. None.

Now his plan B? That would be the only path I would consider. Move your own direction, and of the WAS chooses to follow, then maybe R is a possibility.


----------



## ReturntoZero

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> To me this is the most important part of his plan, repairing the whole marriage and where it went wrong and became vulnerable instead of straight one sided blame.
> 
> He outlines how and why many affairs happen and puts plans in place to avoid the situations.


While in the death throes of codependence, my counselor actually said something quite profound.

"Once you heal, you may decide this isn't what you want"

At that moment, it was unthinkable. OF COURSE I wanted it to work.

I periodically ask myself now if I still want this. So far, the answer is yes.

With my ex, the answer became a resounding "no"


----------



## ReturntoZero

farsidejunky said:


> This sounds good in theory, but it does not happen in the snap of a finger. Exposure happens, then weeks to months elapse with the WS continuing on with the AP, as the BS desperately tries to understand why the A is still active. It is gut wrenching to read about, let alone live in.
> 
> In my time on various marriage sites (minus MB in fairness), I can only think one one situation where Plan A (or similar) actually worked. Every other situation was a long, slow path to madness for the BS.
> 
> No person on Earth is worth sacrificing self respect like that. None.
> 
> Now his plan B? That would be the only path I would consider. Move your own direction, and of the WAS chooses to follow, then maybe R is a possibility.


Nightmare scenario.

You implement Plan A and realize you're now the babysitter while posOM is out banging your wife.


----------



## farsidejunky

ReturntoZero said:


> Nightmare scenario.
> 
> You implement Plan A and realize you're now the babysitter while posOM is out banging your wife.


I can't even fathom how the men (and women) I have read about can allow this, but yes...this summarizes it succinctly.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

You may think that after a spouse willfully chooses a lover (over the betrayed spouse), there would be no hope for marital reconciliation, but that's not true. While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. And almost all affairs end sooner than most people think they will.

But for the betrayed spouse, waiting for the affair to end seems like an eternity. The wayward spouse can't seem to make up his or her mind -- one moment committing to the marriage and the next moment committing to the lover. To help a betrayed spouse survive that painful period of vacillation -- the time it takes for an affair to die a natural death -- I recommend two plans. If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended. This sequence -- plan A followed by plan B -- represents the most sensible approach to handling a wayward spouse's inability to decide between the lover and the betrayed spouse. 

So, then, what is plan A and plan B?
*
Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse.* Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

*In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. *Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) helps identify and prevent instances of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

I mentioned earlier that the betrayed spouse should avoid selfish demands, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts during plan A. And I also suggested following the Policy of Joint Agreement. But when it comes to infidelity, I should clarify what I mean by selfish demands and describe a notable exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement.

How can a betrayed spouse insist that the wayward spouse end the affair unless a demand is made? The answer is found in the way I define a selfish demand.

Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.

*To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce.* To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.

The most important exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement is that when your health and safety are at risk, the default condition (doing nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is reached) should not be followed.

As an obvious example of when the policy is inappropriate, if your spouse is threatening your life with physical abuse, you should not continue to subject yourself to that threat while trying to find a mutual enthusiastic agreement. You should leave your spouse immediately even though your departure would not be with your spouse's enthusiastic agreement.

The same type of problem exists when a betrayed spouse is subjected to the emotional suffering caused by infidelity. Plan A has emotional consequences that should not be ignored. If left in plan A too long, long-term mental and physical damage can occur.

Another exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement when confronting infidelity is what I've called,* "exposure." I highly recommend that while in plan A you tell your friends, family, the lover's spouse, your pastor, and possibly your wayward spouse's employer that your spouse is having an affair.* It's a very controversial recommendation, and a clear violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement. But I've found exposure to be one of the most effective ways to end an affair quickly while in plan A.

But your effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, and even exposure, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.


The goal is get your wife away from the AP, understanding that yelling and blowing up (while natural) can push the WS even closer to the AP. 
Understand where the marriage failed and how to fix it after the affair is over
Expose and demand no contact
If it doesn't work, go dark and Plan B. 

Just being nice isn't what is being promoted.


----------



## ReturntoZero

farsidejunky said:


> I can't even fathom how the men (and women) I have read about can allow this, but yes...this summarizes it succinctly.


While in the throes of codependence (just imagine, getting divorced because I was the one unhappy, then being "exposed", literally once I became involved with someone I didn't wish to lose)... there were times the arguments became heated enough that she would leave the house and - of course - wouldn't respond to texts or calls.

I know she always went to bars, because she'd let it leak out like Chinese water torture.

I can only imagine the soul-crushing helplessness of aiding and abetting her going down on posOM - meaning ANY posOM.

I simply cannot see how that would be helpful - to anyone.


----------



## ButtPunch

Any human being who loves themselves would not participate in the pick me dance.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

He's not talking to the BS who just want to leave. These are BS who are waiting, doing nothing and just hoping their spouse comes back. He's giving them a road map on how to do that and to leave if it doesn't work. 

It's for a very specific audience and not for everyone or every affair. 


I did Plan A and ended my ex's affair and we repaired things on that end. There was just too much other crap and I eventually left anyway but his affair was long over and not part of the choice. 

I do think there is wisdom in figuring out why the affair happened and what both can improve in the future if you decide to R. It's often a series of events leading to the marriage being vulnerable and even if you take that info to your next marriage after you leave it will be a benefit.


----------



## TJW

returnToZero said:


> I can only imagine the soul-crushing helplessness of aiding and abetting her going down on posOM - meaning ANY posOM.
> I simply cannot see how that would be helpful - to anyone.





sokillme said:


> In the end if you stay, it's where you want to be in my mind.


That's not necessarily true. Staying may be painful and there may be no reward at all in the broken relationship. Our wonderful stupid laws have created situations where the WS gets "subsidized" in continued sin. A guy who gets cheated on can find himself in an untenable financial position if he divorces, and at the same time, lose any ability to protect his children from living in a brothel, while he's forced to pay for its maintenance.

It can relate to just how big a POS the WS is.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He's not talking to the BS who just want to leave. These are BS who are waiting, doing nothing and just hoping their spouse comes back. He's giving them a road map on how to do that and to leave if it doesn't work.
> 
> It's for a very specific audience and not for everyone or every affair.
> 
> 
> I did Plan A and ended my ex's affair and we repaired things on that end. There was just too much other crap and I eventually left anyway but his affair was long over and not part of the choice.
> 
> I do think there is wisdom in figuring out why the affair happened and what both can improve in the future if you decide to R. It's often a series of events leading to the marriage being vulnerable and even if you take that info to your next marriage after you leave it will be a benefit.


These betrayed spouses doing this don't love their partners, "not in a healthy way".

There is no self love from either party BS or WS.

These betrayed spouses are the ones that really need to look in the mirror.

They need the therapy as much as the WS. They are just as responsible for the destruction of the marriage.

Codependence is a *****.


----------



## ButtPunch

TJW said:


> That's not necessarily true. Staying may be painful and there may be no reward at all in the broken relationship. Our wonderful stupid laws have created situations where the WS gets "subsidized" in continued sin. A guy who gets cheated on can find himself in an untenable financial position if he divorces, and at the same time, lose any ability to protect his children from living in a brothel, while he's forced to pay for its maintenance.
> 
> It can relate to just how big a POS the WS is.


People come up with all kinds of reasons to stay.

But they all boil down to fear.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> These betrayed spouses doing this don't love their partners, "not in a healthy way".
> 
> There is no self love from either party BS or WS.
> 
> These betrayed spouses are the ones that really need to look in the mirror.
> 
> They need the therapy as much as the WS. They are just as responsible for the destruction of the marriage.
> 
> Codependence is a *****.


To each their own. That's why it's not mandatory. If someone wants to try it I would wish them well. 

There are some parts where I think some bending to suit specific situations is needed and the forums there don't cater to bending. Ever. 
I would recommend the website and his questionnaires and basic concepts but not his forum though that's where I stayed during my plan a.


----------



## Vinnydee

I have read similar advice. The husband changes his ways and competes for his wife. His advantage and disadvantage is that the other guy is only with his wife for the run and games part of life so he is a more attractive choice. She does not care if he is a slob or has other bad qualities that she will only discover when she lives with him. So her husband has to compete both sexually and in all other areas of their marriage. 

I tried being a cuckold for a year with my live in girlfriend. I did not love her and knew I was going to move out of State next year so I gave it a try up to the time she asked my three visiting friends to gang bang her. She was insatiable and while I was confident that I could be competitive one on one, I could never compete with multiple men at one time. So I kicked her out. 

Today, becoming a willing cuckold is the biggest sexual fetish in the USA and other countries. Men are begging their wives to have sex with other men, mostly black men it seems, while they watch or are told about it afterwards. Their ultimate goal is to eat the semen out of their wive's vaginas. If that does not nullify your hetero membership, I do not know what does. It is no surprise that 60% into cuckolding are bisexual or repressing sexual attraction to men. By smelling men and consuming their semen, they are having sex with men using their wife as a proxy. The other 40% yearn for it for other reason like having their own porn star who always returns to them at night. There is also a documented thing called sperm competition. When we are with women who have been with other guys, we thrust faster and deeper trying to displace their semen with ours. Some say that the head of a penis is perfectly designed to scoop up semen. Then there are those who just want to use their wives for a live porn show or to degrade her. 

I became what is called a bull, the man wives have sex with to cuckold their husbands. I was once considered to be Hot in my younger days, had a very good income and was good in bed. Plus I am sterile and both husbands and wives saw that as a big positive. I cuckolded some wives whose husbands decided to look the other way rather than confront their wives and have to divorce. Others were married to willing cuckolds. Up to 7 years ago I was cuckolding one husband for 25 years. So there are a lot of guys into cuckolding, whether willingly or by looking the other way. Some men will want their wife to cuckold them because they fear that they will lose their wives. By agreeing to let her have sex with other men and then return to them, they feel that they are in charge. They get to make the rules and in return their wives more then enough pay them back with great sex since it makes their wife happy to feel desired by other men. She will view herself differently, dress more sexy and like sex more.

My wife was a female cuckold, called a cuckquean. She enjoyed watching me have sex with other women or having sex with me afterwards. She had no jealousy or fears of me impregnating anyone since I am sterile. The reason for her liking me to be with other women revealed itself eventually when she came out as bisexual. She was feeding her need for a woman through me. Once she got a girlfriend that she shared with me, she no longer was into watching. The problem with cuckolding is that few stay married long. Many wives grow to resent that their husband does not love them enough to not want them to have sex with other men. They also start to feel used by their husbands as they cannot just have sex and not have to give all the details to their husband. Try finding a very long married cuckold couple that does it more than once or twice a year or only on vacation. They are as rare as hen's teeth on the internet and even rarer in real life. I know because that was my world at one time.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You may think that after a spouse willfully chooses a lover (over the betrayed spouse), there would be no hope for marital reconciliation, but that's not true. While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. And almost all affairs end sooner than most people think they will.
> 
> But for the betrayed spouse, waiting for the affair to end seems like an eternity. The wayward spouse can't seem to make up his or her mind -- one moment committing to the marriage and the next moment committing to the lover. To help a betrayed spouse survive that painful period of vacillation -- the time it takes for an affair to die a natural death -- I recommend two plans. If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended. This sequence -- plan A followed by plan B -- represents the most sensible approach to handling a wayward spouse's inability to decide between the lover and the betrayed spouse.
> 
> So, then, what is plan A and plan B?
> *
> Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse.* Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.
> 
> On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
> 
> *In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. *Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) helps identify and prevent instances of thoughtlessness.
> 
> A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.
> 
> In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.
> 
> I mentioned earlier that the betrayed spouse should avoid selfish demands, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts during plan A. And I also suggested following the Policy of Joint Agreement. But when it comes to infidelity, I should clarify what I mean by selfish demands and describe a notable exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement.
> 
> How can a betrayed spouse insist that the wayward spouse end the affair unless a demand is made? The answer is found in the way I define a selfish demand.
> 
> Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.
> 
> *To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce.* To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.
> 
> The most important exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement is that when your health and safety are at risk, the default condition (doing nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is reached) should not be followed.
> 
> As an obvious example of when the policy is inappropriate, if your spouse is threatening your life with physical abuse, you should not continue to subject yourself to that threat while trying to find a mutual enthusiastic agreement. You should leave your spouse immediately even though your departure would not be with your spouse's enthusiastic agreement.
> 
> The same type of problem exists when a betrayed spouse is subjected to the emotional suffering caused by infidelity. Plan A has emotional consequences that should not be ignored. If left in plan A too long, long-term mental and physical damage can occur.
> 
> Another exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement when confronting infidelity is what I've called,* "exposure." I highly recommend that while in plan A you tell your friends, family, the lover's spouse, your pastor, and possibly your wayward spouse's employer that your spouse is having an affair.* It's a very controversial recommendation, and a clear violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement. But I've found exposure to be one of the most effective ways to end an affair quickly while in plan A.
> 
> But your effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, and even exposure, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.
> 
> Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
> 
> So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.
> 
> 
> The goal is get your wife away from the AP, understanding that yelling and blowing up (while natural) can push the WS even closer to the AP.
> Understand where the marriage failed and how to fix it after the affair is over
> Expose and demand no contact
> If it doesn't work, go dark and Plan B.
> 
> Just being nice isn't what is being promoted.


"How to Eat ****... and Enjoy It!" by Dr. Willard Harley


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> "How to Eat ****... and Enjoy It!" by Dr. Willard Harley


And again, if you don't like it then don't do it. If works for some people so they can feel free to use his advice if they want. If there a point to deciding that because you think it's crap, everyone should think it's crap? 

People are all different. Your method is not the only method. There's more to people than just "divorce and move on" everyone will have different needs and wants and will deal with things differently.


----------



## ReturntoZero

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And again, if you don't like it then don't do it. If works for some people so they can feel free to use his advice if they want. If there a point to deciding that because you think it's crap, everyone should think it's crap?
> 
> People are all different. Your method is not the only method. There's more to people than just "divorce and move on" everyone will have different needs and wants and will deal with things differently.


Our goal has to be to learn something from the experience - or we're doomed to repeat the experience.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ReturntoZero said:


> Our goal has to be to learn something from the experience - or we're doomed to repeat the experience.


Well that's kind of the point of it. 
Learn why the affair happened, what caused the marriage to be vulnerable and how to prevent that from happening in the future (even if you leave and marry someone new) 

Some people are very against having the BS look on their own side of the fence for things they could work on or repair themselves. 

I get just leaving. I would too. But I think the idea of affair proofing and keeping it from being vulnerable and finding what you can fix on your side is really good advice.


----------



## sokillme

TJW said:


> That's not necessarily true. Staying may be painful and there may be no reward at all in the broken relationship. Our wonderful stupid laws have created situations where the WS gets "subsidized" in continued sin. A guy who gets cheated on can find himself in an untenable financial position if he divorces, and at the same time, lose any ability to protect his children from living in a brothel, while he's forced to pay for its maintenance.
> 
> It can relate to just how big a POS the WS is.


I don't buy it. If I was me I would fight back some way, all these guys are so passive. OK you don't want to leave because of money, then open your marriage, now I wouldn't do that because money isn't as important to me then self respect and I don't want to be in an open marriage, but if you can't deal with losing the money then at least open your marriage. If people have a problem with it tell them the truth, you didn't want to lose the money but you were not going to live with such and unfair arrangement, you didn't open your marriage she did. Change your will so she gets nothing. Quit your job and stop working and let her pick up the slack. Better yet separate your money and start putting it away where she can't get it, get a good accountant to help you. Use it to take your girlfriend on vacation, don't tell your wife where you are going just say I will not be here from this day to this day. Anything that goes wrong let her fend for herself. So basically you are roommates who pay for a house. If you pay the mortgage make her move to the basement. 

Whatever it is, in the whole 2 minutes I have been thinking about this stuff I could come up with a whole bunch of stuff that would rock her world, point being I wouldn't be pining away that is for sure, I would make her life a living hell. Like the song says it's a thin line between love and hate. I would not be passive I would fight back hard. It's part of the reason I couldn't stay I wouldn't want to be that person so it would be best to just move on. Now in this scenario I am only talking about the guys who stay when their wives continue to openly disrespect and abuse them. The ones whose wives continue the relationship and flaunt it. Not the ones where the wives seem to be repentant. The guys who continue to allow abuse stay because they are meek and codependent. They want the marriage because they are afraid. It's why women like that picked them, the new they could dominate them.


----------



## MyRevelation

However, the thread topic is about Harley recommending being a cuckhold, and by his own words that is true.

When a BH discovers he has been betrayed, he can ... demand the A cease immediately ... separate from his WW ... or sign up to be a cuckhold. Clearly, Harley's advice can lead to the latter more often than not.


----------



## Lostinthought61

MJJEAN said:


> My exH tried that. The result was multiple affairs until I met someone I didn't want to live without and left him.


why in the hell would i want to compete with my wife's lover.....god that is stupid......if you have a lover ...then i vacancy for a new wife simple as that.


----------



## sokillme

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You may think that after a spouse willfully chooses a lover (over the betrayed spouse), there would be no hope for marital reconciliation, but that's not true. While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. And almost all affairs end sooner than most people think they will.
> 
> But for the betrayed spouse, waiting for the affair to end seems like an eternity. The wayward spouse can't seem to make up his or her mind -- one moment committing to the marriage and the next moment committing to the lover. To help a betrayed spouse survive that painful period of vacillation -- the time it takes for an affair to die a natural death -- I recommend two plans. If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended. This sequence -- plan A followed by plan B -- represents the most sensible approach to handling a wayward spouse's inability to decide between the lover and the betrayed spouse.
> 
> So, then, what is plan A and plan B?
> *
> Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse.* Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.
> 
> On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
> 
> *In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. *Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) helps identify and prevent instances of thoughtlessness.
> 
> A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.
> 
> In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.
> 
> I mentioned earlier that the betrayed spouse should avoid selfish demands, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts during plan A. And I also suggested following the Policy of Joint Agreement. But when it comes to infidelity, I should clarify what I mean by selfish demands and describe a notable exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement.
> 
> How can a betrayed spouse insist that the wayward spouse end the affair unless a demand is made? The answer is found in the way I define a selfish demand.
> 
> Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.
> 
> *To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce.* To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.
> 
> The most important exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement is that when your health and safety are at risk, the default condition (doing nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is reached) should not be followed.
> 
> As an obvious example of when the policy is inappropriate, if your spouse is threatening your life with physical abuse, you should not continue to subject yourself to that threat while trying to find a mutual enthusiastic agreement. You should leave your spouse immediately even though your departure would not be with your spouse's enthusiastic agreement.
> 
> The same type of problem exists when a betrayed spouse is subjected to the emotional suffering caused by infidelity. Plan A has emotional consequences that should not be ignored. If left in plan A too long, long-term mental and physical damage can occur.
> 
> Another exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement when confronting infidelity is what I've called,* "exposure." I highly recommend that while in plan A you tell your friends, family, the lover's spouse, your pastor, and possibly your wayward spouse's employer that your spouse is having an affair.* It's a very controversial recommendation, and a clear violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement. But I've found exposure to be one of the most effective ways to end an affair quickly while in plan A.
> 
> But your effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, and even exposure, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.
> 
> Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
> 
> So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.
> 
> 
> The goal is get your wife away from the AP, understanding that yelling and blowing up (while natural) can push the WS even closer to the AP.
> Understand where the marriage failed and how to fix it after the affair is over
> Expose and demand no contact
> If it doesn't work, go dark and Plan B.
> 
> Just being nice isn't what is being promoted.


It's a stupid goal and sounds like cuckold 101 to me. Why would you want someone who treats you like that where is the a payoff? Why would you want them back? That is the thing, once someone cheats on you, in my mind, their worth as far as relationships goes a big fat 0. Actually they are worth less then 0 because they are a time sink. Every moment spent with them is one you could be using to find someone else better. It's a big bright world out there with plenty of nice decent people but you don't have infinite time.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

sokillme said:


> It's a stupid goal and sounds like cuckold 101 to me. Why would you want someone who treats you like that where is the a payoff? Why would you want them back? That is the thing, once someone cheats on you, in my mind, their worth as far as relationships goes a big fat 0. Actually they are worth less then 0 because they are a time sink. Every moment spent with them is one you could be using to find someone else better. It's a big bright world out there with plenty of nice decent people but you don't have infinite time.


But he's not telling this to someone who wants to leave. If you want to leave, then leave. 

This is only for people who are actively wanting to stop the affair and repair the marriage. Why people would want to do that is a personal and individual reason for each


----------



## sokillme

ButtPunch said:


> They are just as responsible for the destruction of the marriage.


I wouldn't go this far but I would say they are in a marriage like that precisely for same reasons for why that are willing to subjugate themselves to abuse.


----------



## sokillme

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But he's not telling this to someone who wants to leave. If you want to leave, then leave.
> 
> This is only for people who are actively wanting to stop the affair and repair the marriage. Why people would want to do that is a personal and individual reason for each


What he is telling them to do is immoral it really is akin to telling a women who is being repeatedly beaten "it's up to her if she wants to stay". No it's immoral for her to stay, she has a responsibility to society and herself to leave. Now you can do that in a nice way but you as a counselor have a responsibility to do it. Do no harm remember? I have not read his stuff but this advice to me make all his other advice void. He gets payed for this tripe? When you see someone in a burning building you don't give them advice how to put up with the flames. The moral advice is to help empower the person to move out of abuse, not tell them how to endure it. Gross.


----------



## ButtPunch

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't go this far but I would say they are in a marriage like that precisely for same reasons for why that are willing to subjugate themselves to abuse.


Most definitely.......they go together like peas and carrots


----------



## sidney2718

MattMatt said:


> Well, because I knew no better I, in effect, "niced" my wife out of her affair.
> 
> But it nearly destroyed me.
> 
> What would Dr Harley prescribe for a man or a woman who followed his plan and who actually felt so destroyed that they want to be dead? :scratchhead:
> 
> Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he?


Books. He can prescribe books...


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And again, if you don't like it then don't do it. If works for some people so they can feel free to use his advice if they want. If there a point to deciding that because you think it's crap, everyone should think it's crap?


My point is that Plan Cuckold _is_ crap.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> People are all different. Your method is not the only method. There's more to people than just "divorce and move on" everyone will have different needs and wants and will deal with things differently.


There is precisely one way to deal with betrayal -- ensuring that it won't happen again.

Ideally that would mean divorce, but I realize that some people, and probably due to having kids, feel that they have too much skin in the game for that. So then you're left with reconciliation, and that will obviously mean shoring up any shortfalls in the marriage as it existing just prior to the onset of the affair that put it on life support.

Fair enough. Hell, that makes sense. But if the wayward isn't at least willing (and let's face it, _eager_ would be ideal) to end his or her affair _right out of the gate_, there's really no point, because there's nothing left worth saving.

And those that think otherwise? They're really their own worst problem.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

sokillme said:


> What he is telling them to do is immoral it really is akin to telling a women who is being repeatedly beaten "it's up to her to stay". I have not read his stuff but this advice to me make all his other advice void. He gets payed for this tripe? When you see someone in a burning building you don't give them advice how to put up with the flames. The moral advice is to help empower the person to move out of abuse, not tell them how to endure it. Gross.


Not everyone will see an affair as a marriage ending event. Some people want to save the marriage and want to repair it. 

Telling someone to just leave isn't productive to the people who want to stay. It's not any more or less "moral" 

Again, he's not telling people to stay. He telling them that if they want to stay and want to repair your marriage, this is how to do it best. 

He does often recommend divorce for many situations. Including his own. He's very clear that it is a marriage ending event for him and he would just leave. That's not an option he looks down on. 

It's a choice and he's offering a method to the ones who have made the choice that they want to stay.


----------



## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> Well, because I knew no better I, in effect, "niced" my wife out of her affair.
> 
> But it nearly destroyed me.
> 
> What would Dr Harley prescribe for a man or a woman who followed his plan and who actually felt so destroyed that they want to be dead? :scratchhead:
> 
> Oh. As a PhD Dr Harley can't actually prescribe anything, can he?


With respect, how long ago was it that she was telling someone -- and right in front of you, no less -- that she thought she loved OM more than she loved you?


----------



## ButtPunch

GusPolinski said:


> My point is that Plan Cuckold _is_ crap.
> 
> 
> 
> There is precisely one way to deal with betrayal -- ensuring that it won't happen again.
> 
> Ideally that would mean divorce, but I realize that some people, and probably due to having kids, feel that they have to much skin in the game for that. So then you're left with reconciliation, and that will obviously mean shoring up any shortfalls in the marriage as it existing just prior to the onset of the affair that put it on life support.
> 
> Fair enough. Hell, that makes sense. But if the wayward isn't at least willing (and let's face it, _eager_ would be ideal) to end his or her affair _right out of the gate_, there's really no point, because there's nothing left worth saving.
> 
> And those that think otherwise? They're really their own worst problem.


I don't think a good reconciliation can occur until the BS can let go and accept that its over.

Lord knows I was done....yet here I am still married. 

My marriage is ten times better than the one where my wife was miserable broken mess and i was toting
the load all by myself like a good codependent moron.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Not everyone will see an affair as a marriage ending event. Some people want to save the marriage and want to repair it.
> 
> Telling someone to just leave isn't productive to the people who want to stay. It's not any more or less "moral"
> 
> Again, he's not telling people to stay. He telling them that if they want to stay and want to repair your marriage, this is how to do it best.
> 
> He does often recommend divorce for many situations. Including his own. He's very clear that it is a marriage ending event for him and he would just leave. That's not an option he looks down on.
> 
> It's a choice and he's offering a method to the ones who have made the choice that they want to stay.


He's selling hope to codependents.

Good way to make a few bucks.

They will eat that up everytime.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> My point is that Plan Cuckold _is_ crap.
> 
> 
> 
> There is precisely one way to deal with betrayal -- ensuring that it won't happen again.
> 
> Ideally that would mean divorce, but I realize that some people, and probably due to having kids, feel that they have too much skin in the game for that. So then you're left with reconciliation, and that will obviously mean shoring up any shortfalls in the marriage as it existing just prior to the onset of the affair that put it on life support.
> 
> Fair enough. Hell, that makes sense. But if the wayward isn't at least willing (and let's face it, _eager_ would be ideal) to end his or her affair _right out of the gate_, there's really no point, because there's nothing left worth saving.
> 
> And those that think otherwise? They're really their own worst problem.


You can call it whatever you want. You have no more experience in dealing with couples in affairs nor are you the know all of every couple. 

Everyone is different and every affair and relationship is different and there is a range of different tools people can use if they decide to stay and fix or leave and move on. *Yours isn't the only one or the best one for all and neither is his* 

You don't get to decide if it will or won't work for someone else. It has and does for some and they are happy and it worked long term with success and a happier marriage after.


----------



## Andy1001

Dr Harley sounds like a ****.
An over educated ****.
They're the worst type of ****s.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> He's selling hope to codependents.
> 
> Good way to make a few bucks.
> 
> They will eat that up everytime.


You aren't someone who would want to stay, he isn't trying to sell you anything so why do you care?

I've never bought a single one of his books, everything can be found on his website and radio show anyway. 

They are all trying to sell you something. MMSLP, NNMNG, 5 love languages. They are all selling books and opinions.


----------



## sokillme

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Not everyone will see an affair as a marriage ending event. Some people want to save the marriage and want to repair it.
> 
> Telling someone to just leave isn't productive to the people who want to stay. It's not any more or less "moral"
> 
> Again, he's not telling people to stay. He telling them that if they want to stay and want to repair your marriage, this is how to do it best.
> 
> He does often recommend divorce for many situations. Including his own. He's very clear that it is a marriage ending event for him and he would just leave. That's not an option he looks down on.
> 
> It's a choice and he's offering a method to the ones who have made the choice that they want to stay.


Telling them to continue to endure clear abuse when you present yourself as an authority is terribly wrong. The moral thing is to do is help them understand that they are being abused then empower them so they can leave with hope for a better future. 

Marriage at any cost is an abomination and does more to hurt marriage in modern society then anything else in my opinion. As someone who believes wholeheartedly in the benefits of marriage there is nothing a hate more.


----------



## sokillme

ButtPunch said:


> He's selling hope to codependents.
> 
> Good way to make a few bucks.
> 
> They will eat that up everytime.


Amen.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You aren't someone who would want to stay, he isn't trying to sell you anything so why do you care?
> 
> I've never bought a single one of his books, everything can be found on his website and radio show anyway.
> 
> They are all trying to sell you something. MMSLP, NNMNG, 5 love languages. They are all selling books and opinions.


I will tell you why I care

These betrayed spouses are part of the problem

They don't care as long as they get their spouse back

They would sell their soul to get their spouse back

They don't love themselves and are a part of the problem

They don't do the work to fix themselves they just work harder to keep 
their spouse happy.

They are doomed to go thru it again and again.

It's why Dr. Harley as a dismal 29% success rate while normally just
over 50% of reconciliations succeed. 

I think the BS is a huge part of the problem just not in the way you think so.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Well if they aren't fixing themselves then they are really following the plan. 

Getting all needs met and given
No independent behavior (going out with friends, etc)
Policy of joint agreement (don't do anything without your spouses enthusiastic agreement) 
15 hours a week alone time no kids, no electronics
Open and honesty (no passwords, no secrets)
No love buster behavior for either of you (things your spouse doesn't like) 

They have to do these things after the affair is over. If you can't get your spouse to agree to these things then he says it's pretty much pointless to bother continuing to try in the marriage. 

It would be those who "won" their spouse back but didn't get the above agreed on that end up not doing anything for themselves. 

It's a long plan. Getting out of the affair is just step 1, now you have to do all those things AND make sure your spouse agrees or you set them loose


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Well if they aren't fixing themselves then they are really following the plan.
> 
> Getting all needs met and given
> No independent behavior (going out with friends, etc)
> Policy of joint agreement (don't do anything without your spouses enthusiastic agreement)
> 15 hours a week alone time no kids, no electronics
> Open and honesty (no passwords, no secrets)
> No love buster behavior for either of you (things your spouse doesn't like)


Sounds like codependent heaven to me


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Well if they aren't fixing themselves then they are really following the plan.
> 
> Getting all needs met and given


Things like this make me chuckle.

Good luck with this monumental task.


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> With respect, how long ago was it that she was telling someone -- and right in front of you, no less -- that she thought she loved OM more than she loved you?


Two or three years. Asperger's use a different palette of colours to the rest of us. 

And that's not an excuse, just an observation.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> Sounds like codependent heaven to me


It's a healthy marriage. There will always be codependency in marriage. The point is 2 becoming 1. You depend on each other. You meet each others needs. You spend time together and you make choices together. 
All of those things are needed.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You can call it whatever you want.


I call it what it is.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You have no more experience in dealing with couples in affairs nor are you the know all of every couple.


The details don't really matter, and especially when all they amount to is little more than obstacles to progress. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Everyone is different and every affair and relationship is different...


This is true.

Doesn't matter, though.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> ...and there is a range of different tools people can use if they decide to stay and fix or leave and move on. *Yours isn't the only one or the best one for all and neither is his*


I wouldn't say it's _mine_, but the plan most commonly prescribed here is the best.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You don't get to decide if it will or won't work for someone else.


It's not a matter of deciding. It's a matter of knowing.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It has and does for some and they are happy and it worked long term with success and a happier marriage after.


It has literally never worked, and those who think otherwise, whether they realize it or not, have gained nothing of any real value.

And it really is sad that they value themselves so little.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> Things like this make me chuckle.
> 
> Good luck with this monumental task.


Emotional needs The Most Important Emotional Needs

No, it's not monumental if you and your spouse actually care about the marriage. Regardless of what "plan' if any you think is best, meeting your spouse's emotional needs and having yours met is pretty much the #1 thing you need to have


----------



## sokillme

ButtPunch said:


> I will tell you why I care
> 
> These betrayed spouses are part of the problem
> 
> They don't care as long as they get their spouse back
> 
> They would sell their soul to get their spouse back
> 
> They don't love themselves and are a part of the problem
> 
> They don't do the work to fix themselves they just work harder to keep
> their spouse happy.
> 
> They are doomed to go thru it again and again.
> 
> It's why Dr. Harley as a dismal 29% success rate while normally just
> over 50% of reconciliations succeed.
> 
> I think the BS is a huge part of the problem just not in the way you think so.


Agreed. They also are a terrible advertisement for marriage. A marriage where there continues to be clear abuse shows young people that marriage as in institution is a trap. A broken marriage where the spouses are terribly unhappy tells young people, especially the children of such marriages, that marriage is something to be avoided at all cost. I believe that good healthy marriages are good for society, which is why I believe in divorce.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Emotional needs The Most Important Emotional Needs
> 
> No, it's not monumental if you and your spouse actually care about the marriage. Regardless of what "plan' if any you think is best, meeting your spouse's emotional needs and having yours met is pretty much the #1 thing you need to have


Engaging in an affair is pretty much THE way for someone to demonstrate that he or she doesn't care about his or her marriage.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> I call it what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> The details don't really matter, and especially when all they amount to is little more than obstacles to progress.
> 
> 
> 
> This is true.
> 
> Doesn't matter, though.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say it's _mine_, but the plan most commonly prescribed here is the best.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter of deciding. It's a matter of knowing.
> 
> 
> 
> It has literally never worked, and those who think otherwise, whether they realize it or not, have gained nothing of any real value.
> 
> And it really is sad that they value themselves so little.


Your idea best does not = best for everyone. TAM is certainly not the best affair advice for everyone. You've been reading this forum too long if you think so. 

Yes, they have gained a happy marriage. 

What you think really doesn't matter. The happy couples on MB don't give a crap if you think their plan sucked and didn't work. 

You do not know all. You have 0 experience with it or knowledge of it. Don't like it, don't do it. Stay out of other people's choice to do it if they want to. You don't have a say in if it works or not. You have no idea, you aren't those couples. You've never even read his stuff or listened to anything he actually says.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

sokillme said:


> Agreed. They also are a terrible advertisement for marriage. A marriage where there continues to be clear abuse shows young people that marriage as in institution is a trap. A broken marriage where the spouses are terribly unhappy tells young people, especially the children of such marriages, that marriage is something to be avoided at all cost. I believe that good healthy marriages are good for society, which is why I believe in divorce.


and the point it to build a happy marriage... again just don't get it. It's fine. It's not for you but he in no way tells people to stay in an unhappy marriage. There's a plan to rebuild the marriage after and for before to affair proof things to avoid it in the first place. 

If you can't get your spouse on board for the actual relationship stuff after then there is no point trying to R


----------



## sokillme

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes, they have gained a happy marriage.


Where are these mythical people? Certainly not in the R forums I have read certainly not what I would call happy, maybe one or 2. Most seem miserable.

Again there is a bigger societal impact here that needs to be discussed. Celebrating people trapped in broken marriages is bad for society.


----------



## ButtPunch

No one can meet all of their partners needs.

To try is an exercise in futility.

A life of utter codependence.

This is what shapes are personalities from childhood.

How we cope with unmet needs is who we are.

You don't get it.

I'm beating a dead horse.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

sokillme said:


> Where are these mythical people? Certainly not in the R forums I have read certainly not what I would call happy, maybe one or 2. Most seem miserable.
> 
> Again there is a bigger societal impact here that needs to be discussed. Celebrating people trapped in broken marriages is bad for society.


They aren't usually in the R forum cause those are more for people fresh in R, not years later. 

Look at signatures: 


BW - *
WH - *
M - 34 years
D-day - 2008
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us. 

That was from the first thread I clicked. I could find more
I've read many poster's stories. Usually of affairs a decade or so ago and they stayed to help others. 


None of them were in a broken marriage. They all repaired and CONTINUED with his basic concepts plan for the rest of the time. It will not work if you do not then do the other things. The point is to first top the affair, then fix the marriage. 
Plan A is just the stop affair part. Then comes the repairing the relationship part. There is no one without the other


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So, then, what is plan A and plan B?
> *
> Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse.* Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.
> 
> On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.


One does not need to have any angry outbursts or selfish demands in order to implement Plan TAM. I believe Dr. Harley doesn't understand the difference between demands and boundaries.

"I will not remain in a marriage with someone who disrespects me and our family with disloyalty and infidelity."

"I have loved you and valued our marriage. I value our family. I would prefer to remain married to you, but only if you are willing and able to be faithful".

"Your choices and actions have hurt me more deeply than you can imagine. The lies, the deceptions, the disloyalty, and the sex outside of our marriage are beyond my ability to understand from you. This is not the person I thought I was married to."

Then file for divorce and set conditions for attempting R. The conditions are additional boundaries. MC, IC, transparency, NC, etc.




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> *In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. *Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) helps identify and prevent instances of thoughtlessness.
> 
> A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.
> 
> In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.


This is where Dr. Harley goes completely wrong imho. Yes, every marriage is imperfect, and every one of us is an imperfect spouse. We all need to improve our skills. However, jumping into discussions of the BS's imperfections makes true R impossible. The WS needs to hit rock bottom. We all know the WS will blame-shift and rewrite history. Jumping right into discussion about improving the marriage facilitates both of those things, and it blocks full disclosure and transparency. Only once the infidelity is processed for a while can marriage improvement be worked on.




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> How can a betrayed spouse insist that the wayward spouse end the affair unless a demand is made? The answer is found in the way I define a selfish demand.
> 
> Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.
> 
> *To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce.* To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.


He just described a boundary in a roundabout way. A person cannot remain in an abusive situation.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Just being nice isn't what is being promoted.


If this was addressing my comment about Nice Guys, the issue I've seen numerous times (and in my own life) is the _pathologically_ Nice Guy will blame himself for everything. He will excuse his wife's affair, even if just subconsciously, that somehow he deserves what she did to him. He doesn't think he deserves her or her sex, or, he doesn't think he deserves any better than her. He is unwilling to set a concrete barrier out of fear she will leave him.

The pathological Nice Guy has a different mindset than the typical BS, so Plan A becomes a trap he cannot get out of.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This is only for people who are actively wanting to stop the affair and repair the marriage. Why people would want to do that is a personal and individual reason for each


I think my big issue with Harley is his time scale on Plan A.

My preference would be for the BS to file for divorce immediately, proceed to exposure, and then let the WS know there is an opportunity to R, dependent on the WS's choices. But, most are not emotionally ready to do that. So a version of Plan A absent the filing for D is the next option. The WS will need time to emotionally detach from the AP once they make the choice to return to the marriage. I think this is where Harley offers an insight. The WS cannot go from the affair to Stepford Wife instantly. The boundaries can be set and the WS can be given a very short amount of time to make the decision. Like a day or two. Then the BS needs to watch for consistent movement in the right direction, acknowledging it is a difficult process for the WS and there may be some minor errors. Plan A more than a handful of days is where I think Harley prescribes disaster.

When a hard boundary is set, the WS stands to lose everything associated with the BS. It could include children, home, financial security, social status, employment, etc. So it is not simply a case as Harley describes of the AP looking more sympathetic than the BS. Exposure done right may well kill the AP's desire to continue the affair. The WS may be faced with family as they previously knew it or some fairly bleak alternative.


----------



## ReturntoZero

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Emotional needs The Most Important Emotional Needs
> 
> No, it's not monumental if you and your spouse actually care about the marriage. Regardless of what "plan' if any you think is best, meeting your spouse's emotional needs and having yours met is pretty much the #1 thing you need to have


I really appreciate your thought provoking testimony in this thread. As you may suspect, I'm thinking of my own relationship as I read all of your answers.

Yet, meeting emotional needs creates a bit of a "cookbook" approach. It will "work" to build the love bank - and fill it with deposits. Unless the person you are with has moderate to strong BPD traits.

For example, the resentment I spoke of earlier. Bringing flowers weekly and handing over a few twenties every time you go to the ATM. Good, dutiful husband, yes? 

Well, if the person you are married to is codependent with her own children, then you are actually exerting subtle pressure with your acts of service because she isn't returning them. She ends up angry with you. Years later, she confesses it was "tempting" to take a few of those 20's and set them in a secret "escape account"

How'd ya like those apples Doctor Harley?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ReturntoZero said:


> I really appreciate your thought provoking testimony in this thread. As you may suspect, I'm thinking of my own relationship as I read all of your answers.
> 
> Yet, meeting emotional needs creates a bit of a "cookbook" approach. It will "work" to build the love bank - and fill it with deposits. Unless the person you are with has moderate to strong BPD traits.
> 
> For example, the resentment I spoke of earlier. Bringing flowers weekly and handing over a few twenties every time you go to the ATM. Good, dutiful husband, yes?
> 
> Well, if the person you are married to is codependent with her own children, then you are actually exerting subtle pressure with your acts of service because she isn't returning them. She ends up angry with you. Years later, she confesses it was "tempting" to take a few of those 20's and set them in a secret "escape account"
> 
> How'd ya like those apples Doctor Harley?


Ya I can't imagine it would work at all with a BPD. They are endlessly need sucking and very little can actually fulfill them. Nothing can for the long term. 
Other types of spouses would be excluded as well, other selfish types

It's one of those things you need both on board or it will end badly. The giver and the taker. Our giver will give until the taker side is like, hey what about me? So we need a mix of giving and taking and if your spouse can't fill that for you it'll just be giving and resentment.


----------



## ConanHub

TAMAT said:


> ConanHub wrote at the start of this thread,
> 
> * I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.
> 
> I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.*
> 
> I think that is partially untrue because he does encourage betrayed spouses to act, to expose the affair, to confront the OM and even to separate and start the divorce process particularly in the case of a serial cheater. This is not what a passive cuckold does.
> 
> Unfortunately the MB website is now very narrow in focus and intolerant of multiple viewpoints, but at one time it was a a valuable resource which saved my marriage, but that was back in 2008.
> 
> You can possibly find some worthwhile insights if you look back far enough in time in the postings however.
> 
> Tamat


I said some of his advice was good. A very large part of plan A is being a cuckold. 

Exposure is fantastic and I always advise it.

Having sex and romancing your WW while she is getting her pipes cleaned by OM is physically and emotionally dangerous.

I have known 3 men who have killed themselves while attempting plan A. They were all solid before their wives decided to become ho's.

One of them was very close to me.

Harley very clearly also blames men when their wives decide to ride the sausage train to cheaterville.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Thor said:


> One does not need to have any angry outbursts or selfish demands in order to implement Plan TAM. I believe Dr. Harley doesn't understand the difference between demands and boundaries.
> 
> "I will not remain in a marriage with someone who disrespects me and our family with disloyalty and infidelity."
> 
> "I have loved you and valued our marriage. I value our family. I would prefer to remain married to you, but only if you are willing and able to be faithful".
> 
> "Your choices and actions have hurt me more deeply than you can imagine. The lies, the deceptions, the disloyalty, and the sex outside of our marriage are beyond my ability to understand from you. This is not the person I thought I was married to."
> 
> Then file for divorce and set conditions for attempting R. The conditions are additional boundaries. MC, IC, transparency, NC, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where Dr. Harley goes completely wrong imho. Yes, every marriage is imperfect, and every one of us is an imperfect spouse. We all need to improve our skills. However, jumping into discussions of the BS's imperfections makes true R impossible. The WS needs to hit rock bottom. We all know the WS will blame-shift and rewrite history. Jumping right into discussion about improving the marriage facilitates both of those things, and it blocks full disclosure and transparency. Only once the infidelity is processed for a while can marriage improvement be worked on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He just described a boundary in a roundabout way. A person cannot remain in an abusive situation.
> 
> 
> 
> If this was addressing my comment about Nice Guys, the issue I've seen numerous times (and in my own life) is the _pathologically_ Nice Guy will blame himself for everything. He will excuse his wife's affair, even if just subconsciously, that somehow he deserves what she did to him. He doesn't think he deserves her or her sex, or, he doesn't think he deserves any better than her. He is unwilling to set a concrete barrier out of fear she will leave him.
> 
> The pathological Nice Guy has a different mindset than the typical BS, so Plan A becomes a trap he cannot get out of.


We ran across (another) one of those just last week or so.

His "wife" was on posOM #4 (that he knows of)

I exchanged a few PM's with him - likely because he heard my wife returned after separation. Next thing I knew, he went dark on PM and I found him posting away in the reconciliation forum.

Classic case... and oh so typical.

Plan A for this guy? You have got to be kidding.


----------



## ReturntoZero

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Ya I can't imagine it would work at all with a BPD. They are endlessly need sucking and very little can actually fulfill them. Nothing can for the long term.
> Other types of spouses would be excluded as well, other selfish types
> 
> It's one of those things you need both on board or it will end badly. The giver and the taker. Our giver will give until the taker side is like, hey what about me? So we need a mix of giving and taking and if your spouse can't fill that for you it'll just be giving and resentment.


With BPD, the best course is often to be cold. The people that were supposed to love them didn't. So, they interpret coldness as something they wish to warm up.

Counterintuitive - like riding a motorcycle.


----------



## ReturntoZero

ConanHub said:


> I said some of his advice was good. A very large part of plan A is being a cuckold.
> 
> Exposure is fantastic and I always advise it.
> 
> Having sex and romancing your WW while she is getting her pipes cleaned by OM is physically and emotionally dangerous.
> 
> I have known 3 men who have killed themselves while attempting plan A. They were all solid before their wives decided to become ho's.
> 
> One of them was very close to me.
> 
> Harley very clearly also blames men when their wives decide to ride the sausage train to cheaterville.


Rarely do I actually chuckle when reading a post.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> There are a few truths in life, one of them is never marry Esther Perel.


I bought her very popular book yrs ago, Mating in Captivity... I was curious is all.... I remember reading that book and thinking... dang.. this woman does NOT speak for me and our experience.. 

I mean ...sure .. if you haven't had it for awhile...you will feel MORE passionate/ excitement sexually...having more of a burning desire to get it on....(horniness builds up when days go past)... makes sense right.. but it's almost like she feels if you have too much intimacy...you won't have passion, it always kills it, works against it -and speaks for all of us.... that we will inevitably get bored with each other / stagnant yearning for something new ...(better to just get creative, spice things up with each other I say...

I just can't agree with her "boundaries"... far too liberal for me....a couple CAN revive and hold the passion..and intimacy while they are at it...

If THIS is the way the majority is wired, according to her... I guess I am not normal... 

2 old TAM threads discussing her... a lot of praise there....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...rel-secret-desire-long-term-relationship.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...090-secret-desire-long-term-relationship.html

Anyone who reads her stuff should understand what she finds "acceptable", condones and says it is "good"... I am assuming she has gotten more liberal in this area in recent years.. though I really don't know.....

Have to side with ChumpLady on this one > Esther Perel Should STFU


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> I bought her very popular book yrs ago, Mating in Captivity... I was curious is all.... I remember reading that book and thinking... dang.. this woman does NOT speak for me and our experience..
> 
> I mean ...sure .. if you haven't had it for awhile...you will feel MORE passionate/ excitement sexually...having more of a burning desire to get it on....(horniness builds up when days go past)... makes sense right.. but it's almost like she feels if you have too much intimacy...you won't have passion, it always kills it, works against it -and speaks for all of us.... that we will inevitably get bored with each other / stagnant yearning for something new ...(better to just get creative, spice things up with each other I say...
> 
> I just can't agree with her "boundaries"... far too liberal for me....a couple CAN revive and hold the passion..and intimacy while they are at it...
> 
> If THIS is the way the majority is wired, according to her... I guess I am not normal...
> 
> 2 old TAM threads discussing her... a lot of praise there....
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...rel-secret-desire-long-term-relationship.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...090-secret-desire-long-term-relationship.html
> 
> Anyone who reads her stuff should understand what she finds "acceptable", condones and says it is "good"... I am assuming she has gotten more liberal in this area in recent years.. though I really don't know.....
> 
> Have to side with ChumpLady on this one > Esther Perel Should STFU


There are cheaters and non-cheaters. Cheaters are going to love her because she justifies their behavior.


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## She'sStillGotIt

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Well if they aren't fixing themselves then they are really following the plan.
> 
> Getting all needs met and given
> No independent behavior (going out with friends, etc)
> Policy of joint agreement (don't do anything without your spouses enthusiastic agreement)
> *15 hours a week alone time no kids, no electronics*
> Open and honesty (no passwords, no secrets)
> No love buster behavior for either of you (things your spouse doesn't like)


Fifteen hours a WEEK? With no TV? No computers? No phones?

What kind of hellish punishment is _that_?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Fifteen hours a WEEK? With no TV? No computers? No phones?
> 
> What kind of hellish punishment is _that_?


Lol It's assuming you want to spend time with them 

That can include date nights, sitting outside on the deck talking, recreation activities. I'm pretty sure it also includes sex time so you can knock off a few hours with that. 

That's only approx 2 hours a day. 
If you have a 5 hour date night on Saturday and a 2 hour walk/picnic on Sunday + 3 hours of sexual activity that week (including the before and after bits) then you just have 1 hour on weeknights to spend talking on the couch with the tv off after the kids go to bed. 

That's just one week example but it adds up and doesn't take that much really.


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## ButtPunch

SGC

To each there own.....just like you despise the MMSLP

I despise Dr. Harley and his cuckoldry

I find his infidelity advice harmful at best


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## ABHale

ConanHub said:


> I find Dr. Harley to give good advice for marriage but some of the most insane advice for infidelity. Not all of it is bad but most of it is.
> 
> I am particularly astounded at his advice that a husband be a cuckold after discovering his WWs affair for six months to a year while she has all the sex she wants with her AP and him.
> 
> Dr. Harley advises a betrayed husband to compete with his wife's tool for up to a year supporting her in every way, financially, emotionally and physically.
> 
> I think this is possibly the most idiotic idea I have ever heard but I am open minded.
> 
> Has any man ever followed this advice, letting his wife actively fvck her AP and him while competing for her affection?
> 
> What were the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What women would want to stay with a man that did this?

What "man" would want to stay with a woman that expects him to do this? 

Is it the same for a cheating husband? Is the BW support to do the same?


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## pidge70

ButtPunch said:


> SGC
> 
> To each there own.....just like you despise the MMSLP
> 
> I despise Dr. Harley and his cuckoldry
> 
> I find his infidelity advice harmful at best


I despise them both.


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## MarriedAHooker

maybe stop worrying so much about your partner's sex life~


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## GusPolinski

Most guys don't want to marry hookers.

Not knowingly, anyway.


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## MarriedAHooker

GusPolinski said:


> Most guys don't want to marry hookers.
> 
> Not knowingly, anyway.


just judging by this forum, almost everyone is talking about infidelity, divorce.

nobody is talking about long-term success.

maybe trying to lock down your partner's genitals and divorcing them if they slip up is the #1 factor...


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## NobodySpecial

MarriedAHooker said:


> just judging by this forum, almost everyone is talking about infidelity, divorce.
> 
> nobody is talking about long-term success.


Well... the truth is, people often don't respond to the long term success stories very favorably. Instead of recognizing good thoughts, actions and attitudes, they would rather indicate how horrible their evil spouse is. Cheating is pretty awful, no doubt. But there are a lot of happily married people in the world. And most of them don't bother posting on marriage sites. And when they do, they are generally told how terribly wrong they are...


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## GusPolinski

MarriedAHooker said:


> just judging by this forum, almost everyone is talking about infidelity, divorce.
> 
> nobody is talking about long-term success.
> 
> maybe trying to lock down your partner's genitals and divorcing them if they slip up is the #1 factor...


First, you'll note that this specific forum is called "Coping With Infidelity", not "Releshing Infidelity".

Second, I'd imagine that, since infidelity is a leading cause of divorce, one of THE key ways to achieve long term success would be to neither commit nor tolerate infidelity.

Third, most people would be perfectly content with their partner doing what the Hell ever they want to do with their genitals, just so long as they're given the courtesy of an informed choice.

Fourth, infidelity isn't a "slip up".

That's cool, though -- we need more moral escapism here.


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## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> Well... the truth is, people often don't respond to the long term success stories very favorably. Instead of recognizing good thoughts, actions and attitudes, they would rather indicate how horrible their evil spouse is. Cheating is pretty awful, no doubt. But there are a lot of happily married people in the world. And most of them don't bother posting on marriage sites. And when they do, they are generally told how terribly wrong they are...


Depending on which "success stories" you're talking about, it's probably because we don't consider them to be successes at all.


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## ButtPunch

​


GusPolinski said:


> Depending on which "success stories" you're talking about, it's probably because we don't consider them to be successes at all.


My story should be considered a TAM reconciliation success story.

I followed the TAM hardliners by the book.


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## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> Depending on which "success stories" you're talking about, it's probably because we don't consider them to be successes at all.


Well I certainly would not say failing to divorce is a success, so yah. What would you call a success story?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I think each couple/individual gets to decide if there's was a success story or not. It depends on their goals and their wants. If the people on MB who say they have a success story feel like it was a success story then it's not up to anyone else to decide different.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison

I spent years on MB - thankfully the most recent is over 7 years ago now. Initially, about 15 years ago, the forums were full of ideas - good and bad. I ended up coaching with Steve a couple times. He was okay. A lot more expensive than a couple other phone and in-person counselors and coaches I worked with. It's been over 10 years since I tried working with a coach or therapist. When I quit, I was reminded of why I quit going to church 43 years ago - In that case I was going to see my friends, I was never quite comfortable with the religion, and after I quit, I felt so free and responsible for my own life. With the therapy, I was paying money to the Reconciliation Industrial Complex and comparing notes with friends I'd made on the forums.

Also early on, I bought Harley's books, Surviving Infidelity and His Needs, Her Needs. I don't know where they are today - probably in a box in the attic. When I do find them, I plan to burn them. I bought a few other books in those days. The best was Frank Pittman's "Grow Up! How Taking Responsibility can Make You a Happy Adult". He had the best understandig of what marriage and commitment really are. I also had his "Private Lies" which is more about infidelity than Grow Up is. But I got much more out of Grow Up.

When they banned me from MB 7 years ago, they did me the greatest favor. The forum has morphed into an insane asylum since then, with groupies approaching 100,000 posts and actually making up users and threads to keep things moving, to show they get more traffic than other infidelity fora. I used to give a sh!t about that, but not anymore.

-10th Engineer Harrison


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