# You Get Stuck With What You Put Up With



## BigInJapan (Dec 26, 2012)

Hello TAM folks,

It's been a while since I've posted on here but, then, I haven't had a day like this one in a while.

I love my wife and she's a great gal, but there are ongoing issues at play that make being together far more difficult than it needs to be.

My wife endured a seriously abusive childhood/adolescence and as a result she displays traits of both BPD and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Nothing has been diagnosed, but her behavior falls well outside bounds of "normal" on a regular basis.

Take earlier today, for example.

She got upset because she thought I was making light of her feelings. I wasn't. However, I wanted to validate her emotional response and offered to hold hands while she told me what she was feeling.

Look, I won't claim to be some kind of communication guru. But trust and believe that I've done a lot -- A LOT -- to learn how to communicate in a safe, non-judgmental way with my wife. Sometimes it's effective; other times, like today, not so much.

My wife wasn't interested in holding hands, continued to get worked up (arms clenched across her body, shifting from side to side, breathing heavily) and finally launched out with "I know you hate me!"

Sigh. Folks, the things I hear in this marriage. It's like dealing with a child a lot of the time.

I explained that while she was allowed her emotional response I wouldn't sit there and listen to her trash our marriage. I calmly excused myself and went to work in the other room, closing the door.

A while later I was back out in the main room and asked her, "What you said about me was pretty serious. So I need to know, do you actually believe that I hate you?"

"Yes!"

So, just, no ownership of what she said. Didn't want to hear how it made me feel like trash. Thundering lack of empathy. Etc.

Thing is, while I have NO desire for any kind of protracted battle with her, and I'm not interested in bearing any sort of grudge, I'm not going to be the one to initiate "the talk" that gets us back on track.

I do that on a regular basis and I'm worried that, at this point, it's enabling behavior.

She wouldn't treat a friend or family member that way and expect them to initiate the healing process, so why would she expect me to do that?

Why?

Because in a relationship must people do the things they think they can get away with. Or, look at it another way, you get stuck with what you put up with.

Ranting like this online is far more productive than ranting at the wife, so here we are.

No need to comment if you're not inclined, I just needed to get this off my chest.

--P


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Looks like you are taking the right steps to try and communicate with her. All you can do is try really. You also need to know you are not responsible for her reaction to things. You are only responsible for how you react to her. This is how shes wired due to trauma etc. from her past. My suggestion is she may need to seek therapy to get a proper diagnoses and you may also want to seek help for yourself as well. Anyone living with someone that may have some type of mental illness needs all the support they can get too.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

I think that she will go on the offensive as a form of defence. Deep down she is scared of he power you have to hurt her. It sounds like a lot of people in her life have hurt her and she is afraid you will too. She will lash out at you both to test you and to punish you but I doubt she knows this. She is not capable of being rational about it. Please try to understand the amount of pain and fear she has inside. 

It sounds like you are an outstanding husband and I respect you greatly for reaching out to find help in dealing wuth your wife's issues rather than just reacting to them. 

I do think therapy is a good idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigInJapan (Dec 26, 2012)

I have little doubt that most of my wife's outbursts are motivated by fear. I get (logically, if not always emotionally) that she uses anger as a defense mechanism.

It's sad, really, but if we get into any sort of confrontation she pretty quickly exhibits classic fight-or-flight response: hunches her shoulders, clenches her arms across her body, paces the room, etc.

I know it must suck for her to feel that way, so rather than taking her tirades personally I'll say something like "It looks like you're feeling really upset. That must be awful. Would you like to tell me what you're going through?"

This is effective if it happens before her amygdala hijacks the rest of her brain, but we don't always make it in time, and when we don't we're off to the races!

My heart breaks for her, but I also feel that she needs to take responsibility for her actions.

I mean, shouting at your husband "I know you hate me!" is extreme, right? 

If hatred looked like the way I treat my wife this world would be a much better place. Sigh.

Am I a perfect husband? Of course not. But I am devoted, work hard for our family, and communicate in both word and deed that she is loved and supported.

We had a really rough patch in the past. She was hitting me, throwing things at me, and trashing my personal belongings. I didn't know how to handle it. I FOOLISHLY thought that I could reason with her when she was in one of those states. I thought wrong.

So to cope I set some very clear boundaries: If you hit me or harm my belongings I'm out the door. I stressed that I wasn't abandoning her, had no desire to "punish" her, but that I respect myself enough to not accept that kind of treatment.

She tested the waters pretty soon after this talk and I was gone for the day. She reacted -- strongly -- to me honoring my boundaries, but that was the last time she violated them.

I'm wondering if a similar approach might be effective with this situation?

If she and I can both agree that it's not okay in our marriage to say extreme things ("You hate me", "You'd be happy if I died", etc) and that there are certain consequences to violating that agreement (i.e. I will still show her kindness and courtesy but I won't pretend that her words don't trash my feelings of intimacy towards her), maybe we can get this under control.

We'll see.

--P


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry, it is unlikely she will be able to correct this behavior without years of introspection and IC. And she will have to decide that for herself. I think your only hope of that is to just separate and give her 1 year to make lasting changes and if she does, you will come back.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

DBT therapy can help her, if she is willing. Also, therapy with one experienced in trauma would be helpful.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

Seek professional help. If she won't, consider some for yourself.


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## BigInJapan (Dec 26, 2012)

Sigh.

The situation went from bad to worse in a hurry today.

What's frustrating (one thing out of many, I guess) is that despite my best efforts not to escalate the situation it still spiralled right out of control.

Therapy seems like a necessity but there are factors working against the likelihood of that happening.

To begin, she doesn't seem interested in talking to anyone.

And even if she did show some interest the country in which we live (Korea) doesn't have much of a therapy culture so finding someone to meet with is a serious challenge.

I don't know.

I love my wife and I want to honor to vows we made to each other. But I don't know how much more this relationship can take before breaking.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...sounds like life is sucking...sorry to hear that. Leaving is a perfectly rational choice.

I wouldn't totally count out therapy...while my wife may be unique...she and her family were in therapy in Korea for many years. Albeit, the hospital where she was institutionalized closed a few years back. The downside is that Korea may be a bit behind the times (my wife's therapist was a strict Freudian) - and those therapies are not particularly effective for BPD. She's also fairly fond of a range of self-help books.

In the short-term, one therapist recommended keeping tranquilizers on hand to deal with disregulation. And, although, YMMV, my wife has been, if anything, overly receptive to popping pills.

...I wouldn't necessarily approach leaving as a punishment, but explain that:
(a) some of the stuff she says really hurts your feelings
(b) that you just aren't strong enough to ignore really hurtful words
(c) and that, to preserve the R/S, you will be walking out when she does xyz.

It appears that she's capable of moderating physical behaviors fairly easily. So, I'd guess that she can also moderate verbal behaviors, probably with more difficulty. I'd also guess that avoiding breakdowns is something that'll take, optimistically, years of work.

For anxiety, tranquilizers, scent packets (lavender), singing and dancing, and hugging a gigantic pillow sometimes work. It can also help to occasionally narrate/question emotions. Giving her tools and talking about stuff that can work helped. (Of course, she threw the stress ball at me and ignored the scent packets...but a month later, I found her sniffing the packets and picking up the big pillow. If you get a stress ball, make sure is isn't full of sand...thing is vaguely unpleasant to touch.)

One issue is that leaving->abandonment->trauma->increased sensitivity. At one point, I got good enough at walking out when abuse started that my wife would self-trigger from the expected abandonment and lose control before starting to talk. So, mixing leaving with helping her find alternative behaviors when she complains about the pain may be better.

Sidestepping patterns helps a bit...I've had modest success with:
(a) insisting on a hug before continuing a discussion
(b) yelling and storming out - the trick being that quiet speech feels like lack of emotional engagement->abandonment. OTOH, yelling->threat->relief/rabbit reflex->quiet->calm.
(c) texting

...OTOH...'I know you hate me' isn't as clearly abuse as...
'I'm going to kill you.' 'Useless $%# $#%'.
...and could actually be viewed as unskillful emotional expression. So, I'm not sure I'd walk out at this point. Something like...
'So, I hear you think I hate you. I'd guessing you feel scared? Is that right?' can sometimes work.

There are 2 issues here. The first is that she doesn't empathize with the fact that that sort of statement makes you feel like trash. Okay... Assuming she's mentally ill, one of the most common deficits is the ability to empathize. Particularly when she's triggered, which can last a few days for a BPD, expecting empathy is probably not well-founded.

The second is that you are worried about enabling bad behavior. I dunno. To some extent, engaging in good behavior, regardless of your partner's behavior is probably positive. It sounds like you're trying nonviolent communication...which is probably a good idea to continue. To another, living in a R/S requires having real feelings...and expressing those to your partner is necessary - especially when those feelings involve negative emotions. It might be best to try expressing hurt when she's triggered and when she's not triggered a few times and see which works best. Annoyingly, my wife responds well to hurt only when she's mildly or not at all triggered. Otherwise, anger works better.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...although...I will say...rapid change started around the time I explained that XYZ was just unacceptable and that I was planning on a restraining order, divorce, and taking the children, but that I wouldn't press charges.

--Argyle


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