# Thoughts on this



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.

Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.

Generally speaking, I am fine with this - the sex is actually good, and it's not one-sided.

However, I am getting tired of this 'schedule'. Knowing it's going to happen (without any build-up whatsoever, even right before). I know it's going to happen, and when. I do still try to initiate throughout the rest of the week on occasion, but more often than not (way more often), it's rejected.

So basically 95% of my sex life is on one day of the week, around the same time, and absolutely zero sex or even sexuality the rest of the time.

Yes, I've talked to her about this. She knows I don't like this scheduled/expected sex life. It removes any sort of anticipation or excitement from it. And even though the sex is good, it winds up being almost purely physical for me, because all the other things around sex are simply removed. In essence, it's basically just going through the motions.

I'm at the point now where I simply don't want this anymore, but I'm at a crossroads about what to do. My only recourse that I can see at this point in time is to reject and/or avoid these scheduled sessions, but in all likelihood it'd backfire. I'm just not enthusiastic about it anymore, even though it's my only real sexual outlet.

There have been 4 or 5 times in the past 2 weeks in which we were home alone for extended periods of time. An entire weekend, even. This is rare for that to happen this often. No sex during this time, and even the 'free' weekend, it still ended up happening on the same day at the same time. I hinted, initiated, even bluntly said "hey, let's go upstairs" - nothing.

I'm not trying to figure out my wife - I already know what she is. This has been discussed ad nauseum here, and also with her. But the reality is that I'm starting to feel used, if that's even possible. It's always on her schedule - a literal schedule, at that. The only reason I've kept going on her schedule is that it's sex, and I want to have sex. But I'm simply tired of the way it goes down, and the fact that it's figuratively marked on a calendar.

So this weekend, I've planned to avoid. It's baseball season (yay!), so I have an excuse to not come to bed. I'm torn to whether or not she'll care, or if she does, if she says anything. I've rejected her in the past a minute amount of times, and she generally hasn't taken it well, but I've had legitimate excuses (total exhaustion, mainly). But I've never said no to, or avoided sex with her when I'm feeling fine.

It's juvenile, but it's also pretty last ditch. It's likely it won't help things, but I'm at the point now where I'm genuinely tired of simply doing it on her schedule. I also feel (well, know, really) that she obviously requires this schedule to become aroused and/or psyched up to have sex.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

does she masturbate at all?

surprise her with a date. just spontaneously take her away middle of the week, get a hotel, and do something romantic. women need reason. 

The baseball season is good, show her you don't want her damn schedule and just take control. Tell her in a nice way 'i'd have sex with you, but i got things to do, maybe another time'. She'll put up a hissy fit, but respond calmly and sweet and give her a peck on the lips and go about your business. she is controling you and that makes her feel like you are weak, take control and don't get emotional over it. 



she likes the safety of knowing when it will happen, put her out of her comfort zone and just break the schedule. However, safety is not sexy, take control and put it on your terms, that'll turn her on.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Sounds like a bad plan . 

If you want to reject her to provoke a showdown you have to actually reject her not forget to go to bed on time. She's LD, if you don't show up it's unlikely to register as a rejection...


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

anonmd said:


> Sounds like a bad plan .
> 
> If you want to reject her to provoke a showdown you have to actually reject her not forget to go to bed on time. She's LD, if you don't show up it's unlikely to register as a rejection...


ya show up and turn the baseball game on the tv and watch it, and make her beg for it and make her try to seduce you. frustrate her. but don't give in, she'll love it. 

good point there, if you don't show up it is not rejection.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> anonmd said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like a bad plan
> ...


This won't work. She won't be frustrated, she won't love it, and she won't try to seduce him. I know this after reading OPs posts for years.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Alex, how about sitting down with her and letting her know sex on this schedule isn't working for you? And the emotions behind it... Just be honest. It's come to the point you are resentful and want to avoid sex. Let her know.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

alexm said:


> So this weekend, I've planned to avoid. It's baseball season (yay!), so I have an excuse to not come to bed. I'm torn to whether or not she'll care, or if she does, if she says anything. *I've rejected her in the past a minute amount of times, and she generally hasn't taken it well,* but I've had legitimate excuses (total exhaustion, mainly). But I've never said no to, or avoided sex with her when I'm feeling fine.
> 
> It's juvenile, but it's also pretty last ditch. It's likely it won't help things, but I'm at the point now where I'm genuinely tired of simply doing it on her schedule. I also feel (well, know, really) that she obviously requires this schedule to become aroused and/or psyched up to have sex.


Instead of doing something that might make her feel rejected, tell her you really want to be with her but that due to baseball you would like to try and change up the routine that the two of you have become accustomed to. Ask her if she would be OK with a random time during the week instead and if the two of you can just try playing by ear to find a time.

This would at least not make her feel rejected, but confront her with your desire for the two of you to become more flexible and not become so routine. In my opinion the idea of making her feel rejected will only set you back and cause both of you pain, but sometimes that can be necessary in order to progress and change.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Don't stop having sex! Especially when you say its good. I would use her schedule as an opportunity to have sex 'differently' to make it less boring and routine. So you could try doing something different each week so it would give you something to look forward to and excite you. 

I know scheduled sex can seem a bit boring, but actually the alternative to never knowing whether you are going to get it is far worse and frustrating. You definitely need to add flirtation and romance into your scheduled day to make it special....


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Is there anything to indicate why she seems to be interested in sex on that particular day and at that particular time? 

Example: I am HD and we have sex throughout the week, but we can really take our time on the weekends. That's when I want to dress up and plan something that takes more time and energy. However, DH likes to have a big, naughty, meal on the weekends. Something heavy like a giant plate of nachos. Being full and 3 seconds from a food coma isn't exactly conducive to energetic sex. So, I'd wait to initiate or delay DH's initiation until later in the evening. DH didn't like the delay. He didn't want to feel like he couldn't be spontaneous before 11 pm. He complained that he felt there was too much routine to it. I explained about the food. Now we eat our big, naughty, meal earlier in the evening so we have time to digest and get our 2nd wind before we do anything interesting.

Maybe there is s specific set of circumstances that you could reproduce on other days or some adjustment could be made to allow for a bigger timeframe and buildup.

If you are going to reject her passively, why not do it actively and explain why while you're at it? You said she seems to be upset by rejection. Pain can be a great teacher and motivator. We feel pain and we are motivated to avoid feeling pain in the future. If you explain why you're rejecting her while she is feeling upset, maybe she will begin to understand how much of a problem this really is and be motivated to do something more to avoid being upset in the same way again.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Hmmmm ... tough call. Not gonna lie, I am happy that baseball season just started for the same reason as you. Rather just focus on other things (I know, not exactly the best solution, but right now it is the best solution for me so I am rolling with it).


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Yeah, bad plan. A man needs to initiate when he wants sex, not avoid it. That's a beta move.

How do you initiate sex? I wouldn't consider "Hey, let's go upstairs" as initiating. That's talking about sex. When I broke my wife's habit I stripped and locked the door, then jumped on top of her. Initiate hard with your actions, not with your words. If need be, let her turn you down 5 times in a row, that way at least she knows she's doing it. Saying no when you ask her to go upstairs doesn't really feel like a turndown to her. When you're naked and jump on top of her, or throw her to the bed and start making out, then at least she knows you're initiating like an alpha not a beta.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I agree. Do not back down on sex. Do not reject her. That has zero chance of making things better. Keep having sex at the scheduled time. The goal is to have sex some other time as well.

Initiate. Not with words. Take her hand and lead her upstairs. If she asks why, say "you'll see". Do not ask for sex. Do not tell her you are having sex. Keep saying "just follow me". If she refuses, tell her "OK, you just lost out on your chance to have sex now, time for me to watch baseball".

If she keeps rejecting you, then you start to reject her. NOT about sex. About other things she wants from you. Dinner time? Make yourself dinner. Or go out by yourself. She wants to talk about her day? Sorry, another game is about to start. "I'll catch you later". When she complains that you are neglecting her, remind her about all the times you asked her to join you upstairs. Make it clear that if she intends to NEVER join you upstairs except the one scheduled time each week, your will feel less inclined to spend time with her doing the things she enjoys. If you get only one hour a week of her time, then how can she expect to get more than one hour of your time?

Of course, if you embark on this path, you might destroy not only your sex life but your entire marriage. So decide whether a better sex life is worth setting a time bomb to your marriage. Many would say yes, it is.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Capster said:


> Yeah, bad plan. A man needs to initiate when he wants sex, not avoid it. That's a beta move.
> 
> How do you initiate sex? I wouldn't consider "Hey, let's go upstairs" as initiating. That's talking about sex. When I broke my wife's habit I stripped and locked the door, then jumped on top of her. Initiate hard with your actions, not with your words. If need be, let her turn you down 5 times in a row, that way at least she knows she's doing it. Saying no when you ask her to go upstairs doesn't really feel like a turndown to her. When you're naked and jump on top of her, or throw her to the bed and start making out, then at least she knows you're initiating like an alpha not a beta.


This wouldn't go very far with an LD


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

How much time are you spending with her during the week? It takes at least 15 hours a week quality time meeting the 4 emotional needs to feel romantic love. My husband and I get far more time together 1 on 1 over the weekend so I naturally am more in the mood on weekends. But while on a family vacation last week for 10 days, while spending a ton of time together relaxing, laughing, being affectionate, I felt desire every day. 

It really does make a difference, likely even to a LD. I wouldn't consider myself one but my desire is much lower, almost non-existent, when I'm not getting enough attention, affection, and intimate/fun conversation with my husband.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> This wouldn't go very far with an LD


Agreed. . I think the idea that the LD will want sex if you lock the door and jump on them is just going to push them back even further. There is a big difference between someone being LD and someone being responsive desire.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.
> 
> Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


The beginning of your post also describes my situation. To make the special Saturday night interesting, we have a date night with a couple of drinks. When we come home, she is completely willing to wear any lingerie that I pick. While it is only one night per week, followed by once the next morning, it is of high quality for both of us. Quality beats quantity in my book.


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## Buffon06 (Aug 14, 2016)

Here is what I would do:

The next time that scheduled "sexy time" rolls around, instead of having sex, sit your wife down and tell her that the once a week scheduled sex isn't working for you anymore. Tell her you need more spontaneity, and more variety in scheduling. Tell her that the rigid schedule is compromising the emotional connection you want to have with her.

But just don't leave it at that. Be prepared to offer some suggestions and/or alternatives. Let her know you are willing and able to compromise/meet her in the middle. If you have a problem, you need to at least offer a solution.

If she is agreeable to this idea, then go ahead and have sex after your talk with the clear understanding that the next time you have sex, you will have sex at a different time/location with little or no advance notice. If she gets defensive, dismissive, or otherwise expresses no interest in trying to change/improve the situation, then walk away from the sex session. Tell her you are going to go to individual counseling to help you deal with your unmet emotional needs, and be prepared to follow through.

At some juncture, tell your wife that your therapist/counselor wants to include her in the next session, and see how she reacts. If she is agreeable, then there may be hope of a compromise. If she refuses, or goes into denial ("we don't really have a problem"), then you know you have a decision to make - either live with the situation as it is, or take active steps to work on yourself with the idea that you are preparing for an alternative direction in your life, perhaps one without her.

You need to be able to credibly demonstrate to her that you are serious about blowing up the relationship if things don't get better.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

I don't think that's a good plan at all. I've done it. I think it's just going build up resentment in your wife and take sex completely off the table.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

m00nman said:


> I don't think that's a good plan at all. I've done it. I think it's just going build up resentment in your wife and take sex completely off the table.


So it's either her way all of the time, or no way?


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> This wouldn't go very far with an LD


My wife makes his wife look like a nymph by comparison. She now does things she said she'd never do, and I never get turned down (even though it's almost always for my pleasure). Yeah it works. Being a beta doesn't - tried that for too long previously!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sounds like my wife. Sunday between 2pm and 5pm we will have "sex". (well she'll give me a HJ). Very rarely anything else (though a little more in the last few weeks for some reason, which is nice). I can't remember her ever agreeing to sex when I suggested it.

I don't think this is fixable. Accept or move on. It sucks (or I expect doesn't ;-( ) but there really may be nothing you acn do to improve things. Turning her down will just confuse and upset her, but not gain you anything.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Sounds like my wife. Sunday between 2pm and 5pm we will have "sex". (well she'll give me a HJ). Very rarely anything else (though a little more in the last few weeks for some reason, which is nice). I can't remember her ever agreeing to sex when I suggested it.
> 
> I don't think this is fixable. Accept or move on. It sucks (or I expect doesn't ;-( ) but there really may be nothing you acn do to improve things. Turning her down will just confuse and upset her, but not gain you anything.


What's your reason for accepting this? ie "staying"?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

@alexm, I read your post with my mouth hanging open because I could have posted the exact same thing pretty much word for word. Including that I decided that this weekend is the weekend where it doesn't happen. My husband is pretty much the same as your wife - same time, never initiates, turns me down, etc. We've talked for decades and it isn't changing. I should say, I've tried talking and he gets mad when I do. I've decided it isn't a dealbreaker for me and I deal with it, it isn't a huge glaring problem for me but every once in a while it bubbles to the surface.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I know EXACTLY where you are coming from.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Sounds like my wife. Sunday between 2pm and 5pm we will have "sex". (well she'll give me a HJ). Very rarely anything else (though a little more in the last few weeks for some reason, which is nice). I can't remember her ever agreeing to sex when I suggested it.
> 
> I don't think this is fixable. Accept or move on. It sucks (or I expect doesn't ;-( ) but there really may be nothing you acn do to improve things. Turning her down will just confuse and upset her, but not gain you anything.





Hope1964 said:


> @alexm, I read your post with my mouth hanging open because I could have posted the exact same thing pretty much word for word. Including that I decided that this weekend is the weekend where it doesn't happen. My husband is pretty much the same as your wife - same time, never initiates, turns me down, etc. We've talked for decades and it isn't changing. I should say, I've tried talking and he gets mad when I do. I've decided it isn't a dealbreaker for me and I deal with it, it isn't a huge glaring problem for me but every once in a while it bubbles to the surface.
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I know EXACTLY where you are coming from.


I think the thing here as well, you can't force someone who isn't in the mood for or doesn't wants sex to have sex. Someone who is LD is typically LD for a reason. Really just depends how important it is to you and your relationship. My situation is probably a little different (i.e. my W never rejects me per se and is more on the responsive desire side vs. LD), but at the end of the day there are many other things about our marriage which are great, so it isn't a dealbreaker for me. If other areas in our marriage were breaking down, this would probably be the icing on the cake to make me strongly reconsider.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

alexm;

Man, I feel your pain. I think I understand where you are coming from.

A couple of pieces of advice. 

(1) Denying a partner the opportunity for good sex, just because your are unhappy, pissed, etc. is really not a mature approach. I have stayed up late at night to make sure my wife is asleep to avoid sex with my wife and I don't feel good about doing that.

(2) I was taught by the Gottman's in their Art & Science of Love weekend course that if you want to negotiation a change with your spouse on a gridlock issue, you really need to understand their position and reasons. They joked and said only try to negotiate change on gridlock issues if you understand and can explain your partners reasons better than they can. This means you really need to understand their reasons from having listened and thought about them for a long time. Then and only then will you know enough that you can find areas of change around the edges to propose and try to work out a change.

My advice is for you not to perform you covert contract on imposing change on your wife. Instead, sit her down and talk to her, but most importantly listen to her. Ask her if for the next 4 weeks you can have a 2 hour block of her time once a week to discuss sex scheduling and/or frequency.

If she needs to have it scheduled and you need it to seem spontaneous, maybe you can take a dice cup with a single die, shake the cup&die, slam it down on the table, then walk away. The die will read 1 to 6. She can then decide based on the die how many days in the future you will have sex, put it in her schedule and not tell you about it. Maybe she (or you) can come up with a better solution.

Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

I get the sense that part of the reason you two struggle is your delivery style - gets in the way of your message. I think she would respond better to a clear, very concise and low affect message:

I'm losing my desire to have sex with you, largely because you insist of having 100% control over frequency and schedule. 

-------
And shortly after that message - you let her know you have scheduled something that conflicts with your routine. She's plenty smart and will connect A to B. 

Probably best for you to accept that - she may casually slide into: **** you mode

And maybe that's ok with you. 

That said - if she sees this as a potential end game situation and she is ok with that - that tells you something. 

If she actually WANTS to stay together as opposed to remaining more due to inertia - she will make an effort to find a compromise.






alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.
> 
> Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sex is an important part of marriage, but not the only part. She was always like this, I may not have really understood what I was getting into when we got married, but she did not in any way deceive me. 

Leaving would hurt her terribly and I'm not willing to do that. It isn't her fault that she has almost no natural interest in sex. 





Steve1000 said:


> What's your reason for accepting this? ie "staying"?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Decide on an outcome you can live with. You aren't going to manage to switch from what she wants to what you want. 

A compromise might be that she gets that control she needs most of the time but you get to choose once a month - and she agrees to go along with that as long as you aren't going to then stretch it to 2 and 3 times a month.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

I read a bunch of old hands give good advice.

But, as usual, @MEM2020 wins.

If you're going to stay no matter what then you'll have to weigh "exactly like it is now" against the chances that she'll change (x), that you'll have less sex but you'll have the self respect of not being under her control  and the chances that you'll have no sex at all (z).

If now is a 3 on a 10 point scale; I'd put the probabilities at 5% chance of getting better, 80% of less sex but more control and 15% of no sex at all. 

Plug in the values for x, y and z, change my probabilities if needed, run the calculations and you'll have your answer.

If you're not going to stay no matter what, then say what MEM said; the way he said it and then go with @Holdingontoit and withdraw from her those things that she most values from you and which you mostly do for her sake.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Sex is an important part of marriage, but not the only part. She was always like this, I may not have really understood what I was getting into when we got married, but she did not in any way deceive me.
> 
> Leaving would hurt her terribly and I'm not willing to do that. It isn't her fault that she has almost no natural interest in sex.


The thing about your wife that so annoys me isn't that "she has almost no natural interest in sex" but the way that she dismisses your needs out of hand. 

People who love you don't do that. And, if they do, they shouldn't get away with it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Steve1000 said:


> The beginning of your post also describes my situation. To make the special Saturday night interesting, we have a date night with a couple of drinks. When we come home, she is completely willing to wear any lingerie that I pick. While it is only one night per week, followed by once the next morning, it is of high quality for both of us. Quality beats quantity in my book.


Ah, see, I would be absolutely fine with that, honestly!

But as I said, there's no sexuality outside of this ~20-40 minutes per week. I've tried. She doesn't respond to flirting, touching, etc. A couple of drinks makes her tired, one drink has no effect. We DO do date nights, and spend a pretty decent amount of time together, actually doing things.

But this one time a week, and not a minute before or after, she's an animal. It's like she has sexual OCD.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> It's juvenile, but it's also pretty last ditch. It's likely it won't help things, but I'm at the point now where I'm genuinely tired of simply doing it on her schedule. I also feel (well, know, really) that she obviously requires this schedule to become aroused and/or psyched up to have sex.


I'm going to buck the trend of advice to keep initiating here. It's not juvenile to turn down sex that makes you feel bad. When you hit that point where sex makes you feel worse about yourself after you have it, you have an obligation to yourself to stop. Whether you choose to (or are successful at) changing the dynamic that makes it pleasurable again is a different matter. But don't keep doing something that she's obviously not into, and makes you feel bad. Nobody wins from that.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Sex is an important part of marriage, but not the only part. She was always like this, I may not have really understood what I was getting into when we got married, but she did not in any way deceive me.
> 
> Leaving would hurt her terribly and I'm not willing to do that. It isn't her fault that she has almost no natural interest in sex.


I agree that sex is not the only important part, but the fact that she turned you down almost every time you asked for it makes me question how much she cares about your happiness. Does she realize that you would be happier if she surprised you occasionally during the week with even a HJ? What does she do to show you that she loves and cares about you?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> @alexm, I read your post with my mouth hanging open because I could have posted the exact same thing pretty much word for word. Including that I decided that this weekend is the weekend where it doesn't happen. My husband is pretty much the same as your wife - same time, never initiates, turns me down, etc. We've talked for decades and it isn't changing. I should say, I've tried talking and he gets mad when I do. I've decided it isn't a dealbreaker for me and I deal with it, it isn't a huge glaring problem for me but every once in a while it bubbles to the surface.
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I know EXACTLY where you are coming from.


Hey, we have something in common! lol, J/K 

Yeah, I'm not planning this to try and fix things really. It's truly just that I'm sick of it.

I like sex as much as the next guy or girl - the actual act, I mean - but it's everything else that goes with sex that I'm desperately missing.

I have little doubt my wife actually DOES want to have sex, and with me, at that - but not at any time other than the one that she currently schedules in her mind. I imagine your husband is the same way. I don't believe I've ever read that you have any complaints about the actual sex you have with your husband, and I certainly don't with my wife - just that it's everything else that goes with sex, the other 99% of any given week.

I don't know about you, but for me, it's not the frequency at all. Once a week is do-able for me. Like you, I imagine, I'd prefer more, but it's not the be-all, end-all. It's just "show some interest, or at least humour me outside of this same exact time frame every week, FFS".

You and I have zero control over our sex lives, and that's the issue for me. Telling myself I _can_ say no, that I'm _going_ to say no, gives me a level of control. It may not solve things, it may even make it worse, but at this point, eff that.

In reality, I don't want any expectation of sex, whatsoever. I mean, I expect to have sex, but not in this way. I'd like to go out on a date with my wife, come home, and have her lead me upstairs, or jump me, or touch me in the car on the way home. **** normal people do with their partners. **** that I do, or try to do, with her, but it flies right over her head or is ignored.

It infuriates me further, because I don't know how many times female friends of ours remark how well I treat her, or tell her that she's lucky, or (in more than one case) turn to their husbands and say "why don't you do things like that for me?". Hell, she tells me when her girlfriends say things like this to her and I'm not around.

ps. Good luck! Let's compare notes on Monday


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

alexm said:


> Ah, see, I would be absolutely fine with that, honestly!
> 
> But as I said, there's no sexuality outside of this ~20-40 minutes per week. I've tried. She doesn't respond to flirting, touching, etc. A couple of drinks makes her tired, one drink has no effect. We DO do date nights, and spend a pretty decent amount of time together, actually doing things.
> 
> But this one time a week, and not a minute before or after, she's an animal. It's like she has sexual OCD.


When it's time to begin, would she be willing to wear something sexy if she knew that you'd appreciate it?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> But don't keep doing something that she's obviously not into, and makes you feel bad. Nobody wins from that.


I had the impression that his wife does get into it after they begin.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

alexm said:


> I don't know about you, but for me, it's not the frequency at all. Once a week is do-able for me. Like you, I imagine, I'd prefer more, but it's not the be-all, end-all. It's just "show some interest, or at least humour me outside of this same exact time frame every week, FFS".
> 
> You and I have zero control over our sex lives, and that's the issue for me. Telling myself I _can_ say no, that I'm _going_ to say no, gives me a level of control. It may not solve things, it may even make it worse, but at this point, eff that.
> 
> ps. Good luck! Let's compare notes on Monday


OK it's a date LOL

What you posted last pretty much sums it up for me, yup. 

All the solutions people are posting I know won't work for us, because i've tried pretty much everything ten or twenty times. We also tried scheduling sex more often, which we did for a couple of months and then he decided it was more effort than it was worth. 

I've just kind of gotten to the point where I want to see if he even NOTICES when I get out of bed on Saturday morning without having sex first. It's possible that I will sleep longer than he does in which case I can expect to wake up to what he calls foreplay, at which point he gets angry if I just up and leave the bed, and frankly once we're at that point I just want whatever I can get. So we shall see - if that happens my notes will have to wait a week. It shouldn't though - I usually wake up a couple hours before he does and have to sit in bed reading till he wakes up if I want to get any. Sigh.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Steve1000 said:


> I had the impression that his wife does get into it after they begin.


That's kind of the mystery with Alex's wife. He's stated in the past that it's almost like a performance.

And regardless of whether she's into it or not, he no longer is.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> I'm going to buck the trend of advice to keep initiating here. It's not juvenile to turn down sex that makes you feel bad. When you hit that point where sex makes you feel worse about yourself after you have it, you have an obligation to yourself to stop. Whether you choose to (or are successful at) changing the dynamic that makes it pleasurable again is a different matter. But don't keep doing something that she's obviously not into, and makes you feel bad. Nobody wins from that.


I hear you.

I wouldn't say it makes me feel bad, just empty. It's become meaningless, other than to get off. Perhaps she's feeling an emotional connection during this, I don't actually know, TBH, but I'm not any more.

For some people, scheduling works. There have been entire threads about that subject. But in each case, both people actually require sex, I think, and they make it an emotional event, including anticipating the evening together, or going out on a date, or whatever. We don't have that. Whether we're out doing something, with people or just the two of us, or sitting on the couch, or hanging with the kids - it's the same thing every time. There's no giddy excitement about what's to come later that evening, or even in 5 minutes.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Steve1000 said:


> I had the impression that his wife does get into it after they begin.


Big time, yeah. Which makes it all the more confusing to me. I've called it 'porn sex' here before, and that's pretty much the best description I can give of it.

Physically, I've never had sex this good in my life, and I can't imagine anybody could top her - no exaggeration.

It's so confusing.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> I hear you.
> 
> I wouldn't say it makes me feel bad, just empty. It's become meaningless, other than to get off. Perhaps she's feeling an emotional connection during this, I don't actually know, TBH, but I'm not any more.
> 
> For some people, scheduling works. There have been entire threads about that subject. But in each case, both people actually require sex, I think, and they make it an emotional event, including anticipating the evening together, or going out on a date, or whatever. We don't have that. Whether we're out doing something, with people or just the two of us, or sitting on the couch, or hanging with the kids - it's the same thing every time. There's no giddy excitement about what's to come later that evening, or even in 5 minutes.


I've had the kind of sex that you're talking about. Empty. It sucks.

My opinion is that if I'm going to have empty sex, I'll just do for myself.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> Big time, yeah. Which makes it all the more confusing to me. I've called it 'porn sex' here before, and that's pretty much the best description I can give of it.
> 
> Physically, I've never had sex this good in my life, and I can't imagine anybody could top her - no exaggeration.
> 
> It's so confusing.


Alex, when you two have sex, is there ever smiling or laughter on her part?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> That's kind of the mystery with Alex's wife. He's stated in the past that it's almost like a performance.
> 
> And regardless of whether she's into it or not, he no longer is.


Not a performance (or if it is, it's A++!). I won't be 'that guy' who says "I can tell she's not faking", lol, because WTF do I really know about women, anyway?

What I do know is that she wouldn't bother faking this for this long, at this level.

She LIKES sex, she likes sex with ME - just once a week, with none of the stuff that goes on before or after, at any other time throughout the week, or even that DAY.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> OK it's a date LOL
> 
> What you posted last pretty much sums it up for me, yup.
> 
> ...


The bolded made me laugh, and I'm sorry for that!

You have Saturday morning, I have Saturday night - but it's the same thing. By that point, I need it, so I fall for it. Stay awake for it, or go to bed when she's ready, that sort of thing. Much like how you stay in bed until he wakes up, or get woken up by whatever it is he's doing to you, lol!

Urgh.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> Alex, when you two have sex, is there ever smiling or laughter on her part?


Usually, yes. She's not just going through the motions. She really is enjoying herself, and it's not just "business time".


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> Usually, yes. She's not just going through the motions. She really is enjoying herself, and it's not just "business time".


That's good. If she's legit enjoying it, Mem's advice may work.

Is she this rigid with other aspects of her life, or just this area?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

alexm said:


> Not a performance (or if it is, it's A++!). I won't be 'that guy' who says "I can tell she's not faking", lol, because WTF do I really know about women, anyway?


What would happen if you stop a minute after you begin and tell her that you want her to put on a little seductive show for you?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> That's good. If she's legit enjoying it, Mem's advice may work.
> 
> Is she this rigid with other aspects of her life, or just this area?


Yeah, Mem's a genius. I really need to listen to him more often.

Not really, no. My ex wife was a scheduler and all-around OCD nightmare. Wife #2 not at all. Fly by the seat of our pants in just about anything else.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Steve1000 said:


> What would happen if you stop a minute after you begin and tell her that you want her to put on a little seductive show for you?


Because what she's already doing works just fine! :grin2:


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> Usually, yes. She's not just going through the motions. She really is enjoying herself, and it's not just "business time".


Yep... it gets even more weird as time and bodies go on. It's gone from chandelier sex to "how's your back this weekend" and things we started with are not even in the mix anymore because, well, bodies change and the feeling in those part as well but in the end, I know if Sunday afternoon comes, the default schedule says that one of us better! 

So you do date nights, and spend a pretty decent amount of time together, actually doing things... sounds like you have fun together.

And after your fun on the car ride home do you mean touch you like "hold your hand" or touch you like when you were first dating and groping each other all over the place?

The sword of frustration you are willing to fall on... choose it wisely.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In many ways my wife is similar. The big difference is that she does greatly enjoy non-sexual intimacy during the week. Fairly frequently she even suggests that it would be nice to get to bed early for sex - but very rarely does she actually go through with it. 

I think she never accepts my offers for sex, because if she wanted sex she would ask. 

She clearly thinks that the purpose of sex is for both parties to get off, and that doing this once a week is reasonable. Sunday afternoons work well. Its after doing the grocery shopping and lunch, but before we get diner and watch a movie in the evening. A good efficient time for sex. 

Since the function of sex is getting off, and she has found techniques for us to both do this with a minimum of effort, she sees no reason to change. She seems a combination of confused and hurt if I indicate that I don't really enjoy HJs - after all I get off so what could the problem possibly be? Often when I am doing things for her, she wants me to go to using the vibrator that gets her off quickly. 

When I've turned her down for sex she seemed honestly confused. I think sex is so different for her that she can't imagine that what we are doing isn't a great sex life. Can't imagine why we would have sex at anything other than the most practical time in the week.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She buys me thoughtful gifts. Makes dinners that I like. Tells me that she loves me. Give me hugs and kisses. She is a wonderful affectionate wife, she just doesn't want sex. 





Steve1000 said:


> I agree that sex is not the only important part, but the fact that she turned you down almost every time you asked for it makes me question how much she cares about your happiness. Does she realize that you would be happier if she surprised you occasionally during the week with even a HJ? What does she do to show you that she loves and cares about you?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> In many ways my wife is similar. The big difference is that she does greatly enjoy non-sexual intimacy during the week. Fairly frequently she even suggests that it would be nice to get to bed early for sex - but very rarely does she actually go through with it.
> 
> I think she never accepts my offers for sex, because if she wanted sex she would ask.
> 
> ...


Sheepishly raising my hand over here. I am the same as your wife. I've read thread after thread here about how everyone else experiences sex and still can't wrap my head around it. Logically I can read the words and understand their meaning, I just can't imagine what it would be like to feel anything other than this! 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

uhtred said:


> She buys me thoughtful gifts. Makes dinners that I like. Tells me that she loves me. Give me hugs and kisses. She is a wonderful affectionate wife, she just doesn't want sex.


Thanks. I can see why you chose to stay.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It seems clear that different people experience sex very differently. It doesn't seem to be a male female thing, but something else - genetics? conditioning? who knows.

I see this as a very important piece of information for young people to have so that they can have happy relationships. That this sort of sexual compatibility is important for happiness, and that it seems fairly innate and doesn't often change very much. 

I think there is a lot of variation in other things as well. I really enjoy adrenaline rush things. Parasailing off of mountains, aerobatic airplanes etc. Other people would find these very unpleasant. OTOH, I absolutely hate sitting still for a concert even though I love music. 

I wonder if sex matter so much to me because I am very emphatic. I enjoy my partner's pleasure as much as my own. 

I can no more imagine how you feel about sex than you can imagine how I feel. That means that even if we were well matched and wonderful people in other ways we would never be a really happy couple. If we'd met young though, we might not have recognized that until too late. 




kag123 said:


> Sheepishly raising my hand over here. I am the same as your wife. I've read thread after thread here about how everyone else experiences sex and still can't wrap my head around it. Logically I can read the words and understand their meaning, I just can't imagine what it would be like to feel anything other than this!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

uhtred said:


> In many ways my wife is similar. The big difference is that she does greatly enjoy non-sexual intimacy during the week. Fairly frequently she even suggests that it would be nice to get to bed early for sex - but very rarely does she actually go through with it.
> 
> I think she never accepts my offers for sex, because if she wanted sex she would ask.
> 
> ...


Wow - this is an awesome post - it's opened my eyes I think. My husband is ridiculously practical - I never even thought about it applying to sex. OMG.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@alexm.

I am very sorry and I would feel the same way you do.

I can't really advise you because I'm not civilized like you.

I really appreciate your well thought out responses and have even agreed with you a few times! LOL!😁

I pray you two can communicate and meet each others' needs.

It seems there is an unfortunate power balance in your marriage and your wife likes control.

It doesn't seem very loving to me.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

The only thing wrong about the situation is you have decided to think it's wrong. If you did that...you are also capable of deciding it's awesome great and the baseline from which you can build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

alexm said:


> But this one time a week, and not a minute before or after, she's an animal. It's like she has sexual OCD.


Wow...I wonder if she would be interested in kinking things up a bit? That is very exciting. My gf and I text each other the days before we get together, hatching out scene plans. It's extremely arousing. We are both high drive, but if you introduce something new into your usual sex play, that might get her juices flowing a bit more. It might work, even with a low drive person.

I hear you about quality over quantity. I really hope that you can hash things out with your wife. Communication is ALWAYS the best option, not some passive/aggressive blowing the weekend date off sort of stuff that I've been seeing on here. Honestly goes a long ways.

Best regards, and I hope you find a happy medium. You are one of my fave peeps on here.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

introvert said:


> Wow...I wonder if she would be interested in kinking things up a bit? That is very exciting. My gf and I text each other the days before we get together, hatching out scene plans. It's extremely arousing. We are both high drive, but if you introduce something new into your usual sex play, that might get her juices flowing a bit more. It might work, even with a low drive person.
> 
> I hear you about quality over quantity. I really hope that you can hash things out with your wife. Communication is ALWAYS the best option, not some passive/aggressive blowing the weekend date off sort of stuff that I've been seeing on here. Honestly goes a long ways.
> 
> Best regards, and I hope you find a happy medium. You are one of my fave peeps on here.


Thanks!

Yeah, when I say 'there's no sex/sexuality' outside of this particular time frame, I mean it. That includes talking about it, too.

Maybe I have to talk to her right smack dab in the middle of it? :grin2:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

There is something very wrong here.

The scenario that you have illustrated is not healthy?

Have you two thought about counseling?.
How about just for her?

There is something tickling my brain about this.

I can't quite make it out but it is certainly there. Like something in the shadows.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> Big time, yeah. Which makes it all the more confusing to me. I've called it 'porn sex' here before, and that's pretty much the best description I can give of it.
> 
> Physically, I've never had sex this good in my life, and I can't imagine anybody could top her - no exaggeration.
> 
> It's so confusing.


No offense, but this reminds me of Eddie Murphy RAW's Ritz Cracker Sex routine. It was and still is hilarious, but it was shocking realistic and accurate when it happened to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

I have the exact same reaction that you do to this situation / marital dynamic. 

Thing is - it is difficult for me to understand how other couples - dance. 

At some level - I'm aware that M2 has created an unusually high level of synchronization with me. Our default reaction to each other's requests (Gottman calls them bids) is yes. This 'yes' is a nearly hard wired reflex to any request. 

Deep sigh......

With power comes - responsibility. So - I generally don't ask M2 to do anything - that - I don't think she WANTS to do. The nice thing is that she has asked me to - play - with her - and just see what happens. Sometimes play creates passion - and when that occurs - we have sex. And when it doesn't - we don't. 

And I like it like that. It feels right. Sometimes - M2 - unilaterally decides that - we are going to connect even if said connection is kind of one sided. And that's ok - because it's always ok to assert a give. Completely different than asserting a take. 

This is love - yes? It can be given, but not taken. 

Taking - isn't about love - it is about power and selfishness. And yes - my fluency in such matters comes from hard won experience. In our first decade+ I took what I wanted from M2. Not physically - but still - I wouldn't wish the weight of those memories - on my worst enemy. Somehow (inexplicably) M2 bears me no ill will for this. 






Buddy400 said:


> The thing about your wife that so annoys me isn't that "she has almost no natural interest in sex" but the way that she dismisses your needs out of hand.
> 
> People who love you don't do that. And, if they do, they shouldn't get away with it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> So it's either her way all of the time, or no way?


The person who cares the least tends to win here.

It's the SLA frequency theory. If she has sex outside this SLA, she could well think it's going to increase the frequency, and thus is unwelcome. It's a defense mechanism.

Down the road the 1x a week will magically become 1x every two weeks, 1x a month, etc. That's the fallacy of scheduled intimacy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> Big time, yeah. Which makes it all the more confusing to me. I've called it 'porn sex' here before, and that's pretty much the best description I can give of it.
> 
> Physically, I've never had sex this good in my life, and I can't imagine anybody could top her - no exaggeration.
> 
> It's so confusing.


No, Alex, it's not confusing. It makes perfect sense.

She does not want to hand over control. It's that simple. In the occasions where Dr. J2 and I have our intimate moments, it's phenomenal. Hours, literally. So I know she enjoys it. The whole anticipation, pregame... the works. Then drought. 

It's all part of the process of them feeling in control. The moment you upset the balance they feel threatened. 

That's what SLA is all about (service level agreement).


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Hmm?

Like clockwork.....it is scheduled, like porn sex.

Porn sex....an initial BJ, then every position tried, yes? A lot of action, lots of moaning?

It is a performance. It is duty-sex on steroids. She is good, she has you fooled. I think she has watched "porn sex" just for pointers.

Repeat, it is duty-sex on steroids.

This is to keep YOU sated, to keep you from leaving. She knows you are frustrated.

The scheduling? Classic "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder", OCD.

She prepares for this "Act" all week........but only in her mind.

I see this as forced behavior, on her part. I also think she needs you a lot. 

Love? Of course, but on her terms. 

Answer? Short of leaving her........none.

Life is not always fair and it is never easy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

alexm said:


> I'm at the point now where I simply don't want this anymore, but I'm at a crossroads about what to do. My only recourse that I can see at this point in time is to reject and/or avoid these scheduled sessions, but in all likelihood it'd backfire. I'm just not enthusiastic about it anymore, even though it's my only real sexual outlet.


You have way more recourse than that, and I don't mean cheating.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

alexm said:


> Not a performance (or if it is, it's A++!). I won't be 'that guy' who says "I can tell she's not faking", lol, because WTF do I really know about women, anyway?
> 
> What I do know is that she wouldn't bother faking this for this long, at this level.
> 
> She LIKES sex, she likes sex with ME - just once a week, with none of the stuff that goes on before or after, at any other time throughout the week, or even that DAY.


How is your romance and general intimacy not about sex working out? Are you passionate about wanting her? Not, I am so horny get me off kind of way, the I am hungry for YOU kind of way. Ever just get her off for her pleasure? No strings attached?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Some folks like schedules and that includes scheduled sex. I like that - I do. Always have. Including sex. 

M2 is a big fan of schedules for everything except sex. Where sex is concerned she likes random and spontaneous.....

She kind of humors me in this area.....




Fozzy said:


> That's good. If she's legit enjoying it, Mem's advice may work.
> 
> Is she this rigid with other aspects of her life, or just this area?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I have enough spreadsheets in my life, the last thing I'd want to do is manage one on the frequency of sex with my husband. That's what this makes me think of. 

Sorry that you're struggling with this, Alex. I wish I had a new idea to pass your way but neither Odo nor I are LD. We have periods of low activity when I'm traveling. If one of us doesn't feel "up for" sex, then maybe we each keep it in the back of our minds for engagement later. We both believe that sex is a primary way we bond. I feel the bond slightly deteriorate if it's been more than 3-4 days. So does he. 

We are both pretty open and lewd. I'll be washing dishes in the sink and he'll hug me from behind and push his hardon against my bum and whisper that it makes him rigid watching me be all domestic. And, since it's my fault, what am I going to do about it? Even if it's not a good time (and he knows this) it plants the seed. He kisses my neck and walks away without further pressure. I feel desired and it gives me a little love boost from him. I'm also somewhat flushed as I finish my chores. 

Your wife may not be as responsive to this. Maybe you've tried a lighter version of this already to see she does respond. I just can't fathom scheduling sex. It would make me feel like it's one more thing to put on the calendar because of our busy lives.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Capster said:


> Yeah, bad plan. A man needs to initiate when he wants sex, not avoid it. That's a beta move.
> 
> How do you initiate sex? I wouldn't consider "Hey, let's go upstairs" as initiating. That's talking about sex. When I broke my wife's habit I stripped and locked the door, then jumped on top of her. Initiate hard with your actions, not with your words. If need be, let her turn you down 5 times in a row, that way at least she knows she's doing it. Saying no when you ask her to go upstairs doesn't really feel like a turndown to her. When you're naked and jump on top of her, or throw her to the bed and start making out, then at least she knows you're initiating like an alpha not a beta.


This is really sexy.

I agree it may not work with a LD like Alex's wife. But it is really sexy, nonetheless.

I would not advise "jumping" on top of her, though. Sounds desperate. 

Just hearing my husband lock the door and then turning around to see his naked, fit body would definitely be a turn on. Coming calmly towards me, eyes on mine, with intent, would definitely have me under him quickly. How could I resist?

There really should be a thread with "start up" suggestions like this . . .

Alex, I hope you will not go the passive aggressive route as you were considering earlier. Please just talk to her openly and honestly, as Livvie suggested. 

The suggestion to try sex therapy is also good, imo.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Like @Satya and Odo whose participation here I still miss, I do the same thing to my wife. Since it's nice to tease her sexually for a brief moment, during times when neither of us is going to do anything. To the point that it excites both of us, and it frequently puts my wife into the mindset of wanting to have sex later.

Doing this is all very low key to begin with and is done in passing with escalation, in a very brief way that is quite playful with an explicit sexual edge.

So it can be as simple as walking up to her while she's reading or hanging out the washing. Then gently kissing her neck for a moment or sliding my teeth down the back of her neck and then walking away. Then maybe half an hour or more frequently an hour later, I will do it again only what I do is different, so I will kiss her lips rather provocatively and linger, then smile and again walk.

Then I will see her a bit later and I will say show me and she will reveal something and I will go about my day. Then I will in passing walk up to her and lift up her dress and then firmly grip her behind while moving her underwear out of the way and she will feel me as I bend her over and then I stop, smile and again walk away.

For years we've maintained this buzz of sexual anticipation and excitement. The only limits are your imagination.

You can draw this out when you have time or compress it when you don't, flirting and touching for us happens every day even when we don't end up taking the time to share sex. If we didn't flirt and build up tension all of the time, I doubt we would share that much sex with each other.

I don't know if you've done this with your wife, yet I think it's worth a shot if you have tried in the past and gotten nowhere. Plus I don't think you need to do this to have sex. There are lots of times when the flirting and building of sexual tension, without consummation on that day can be really nice.

I know we can become set in our ways, yet we can also often change as well. My wife waited until she was almost 26 to have sex, which would rightly give some people pause as a red flag in terms of sexual drive yet she's really into sex.

Plus she has evolved over time, where years ago she would never flashed me while we're out. While for the past few years she now finds it very exciting to do exactly that, she says she doesn't know why yet it now turns her on when I tell her to show me stuff and she checks to see no one is around and does exactly that.

If you're open to make mistakes, laugh about it when things are clumsy and give it a go, your wife might surprise you along the way as she gets older. Don't pretend to be what you're not, but do have the confidence to try to lead her where you would like to go sexually. And do laugh with her when things seem out of the norm for you both.

As to not want to ride the schedule merry go round, you could just say "I don't want it right now, but I'll let you know when I do".

Then you can try the flirting, while keeping it very low key for a while without going after sex. Then later at other times escalate and build it more explicitly, to the point that you can walk her to the lounge, or the table, standing up, leaning her against the wall or even get her to the bed and then have your way with her. By building that tension, a woman can want to be consumed in the moment before you get them in bed. Although beds are great for sex and as we get older more comfy, don't discount all sorts of places except the bed and don't think sex needs to be a big production for it to be so deeply luscious.

All of that said I don't have any magic answers I get things wrong plenty of times as well, you're just as capable as me or anyone else. Maybe you have both got yourself stuck in a rut that has become a trench. I figure you can both find a way to errect some ladders to get out of it, by not discounting that you both do change along the way.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> That's good. If she's legit enjoying it, Mem's advice may work.
> 
> Is she this rigid with other aspects of her life, or just this area?


Trouble is that with a stand-off, the winner is always the most determined. Or the most stubborn.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
This is where - that delivery style issue - hurts you. 

In totality - your sex life IS making you feel bad. 

There is no shame in that. No reason to blur the picture. 






alexm said:


> I hear you.
> 
> I wouldn't say it makes me feel bad, just empty. It's become meaningless, other than to get off. Perhaps she's feeling an emotional connection during this, I don't actually know, TBH, but I'm not any more.
> 
> For some people, scheduling works. There have been entire threads about that subject. But in each case, both people actually require sex, I think, and they make it an emotional event, including anticipating the evening together, or going out on a date, or whatever. We don't have that. Whether we're out doing something, with people or just the two of us, or sitting on the couch, or hanging with the kids - it's the same thing every time. There's no giddy excitement about what's to come later that evening, or even in 5 minutes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pure gold.

A mix of passion and control. 




Personal said:


> Like @Satya and Odo whose participation here I still miss, I do the same thing to my wife. Since it's nice to tease her sexually for a brief moment, during times when neither of us is going to do anything. To the point that it excites both of us, and it frequently puts my wife into the mindset of wanting to have sex later.
> 
> Doing this is all very low key to begin with and is done in passing with escalation, in a very brief way that is quite playful with an explicit sexual edge.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Now let's hear the passion-free formula 😎

... Crickets...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> Now let's hear the passion-free formula 😎
> 
> ... Crickets...


I don't understand, why should there be a passion free formula?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.


Scheduled intimacy is fine but not when it's the only intimacy you get. My wife and I tend to fall into the same dynamic, which I admit is partly my fault and partly hers. For us, going on a vacation turns all of that upside down for a while though. I think it's because we have a week of lounging around a pool and beach, and eating and drinking, and not being stressed about daily life. She walks around daily in a bikini which drives me nuts (and others nuts I'm sure). I think her feeling sexy makes her more sexual and makes me a little more aggressive as well.

My point is that both of us are more ready for spontaneous intimacy for a while after vacation. Just a thought. Book a trip .


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Thundarr said:


> Scheduled intimacy is fine but not when it's the only intimacy you get. My wife and I tend to fall into the same dynamic, which I admit is partly my fault and partly hers. For us, going on a vacation turns all of that upside down for a while though. I think it's because we have a week of lounging around a pool and beach, and eating and drinking, and not being stressed about daily life. She walks around daily in a bikini which drives me nuts (and others nuts I'm sure). I think her feeling sexy makes her more sexual and makes me a little more aggressive as well.
> 
> My point is that both of us are more ready for spontaneous intimacy for a while after vacation. Just a thought. Book a trip .


We've gone away a fair amount of times over the years, and yes, it makes a difference. While on vacation, every day feels like Saturday, so the frequency increases. But oddly enough, the quality isn't as good, likely because it's more than once a week.

Wonder how good it would be if it was once a _month_? I don't think I want to find out...!

You are right, though, and I know you're not the only one. Vacation sex, or otherwise being away from work, kids, family, stress and general obligations tend to up the sex for many. No different here. But I can't afford to take 6 vacations a year :|


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I don't understand, why should there be a passion free formula?


There isn't one.

One of the major deficiencies in tam is the lack of people who have successfully addressed LD spouse issues in a repeatable, measurable, and explainable manner. Thus, much of the advise offered is either from people who never experienced the issue at hand, experienced it but had a cooperating and involved LD spouse (unicorn territory), or those who haven't​ found a solution yet. 

Makes for fun reading tho, nearly as much fun as reading consumer reviews of the stuff I help design 😎.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> Wonder how good it would be if it was once a _month_? I don't think I want to find out... :|


It's pretty phenomenal, TBH . But not worth the, ehem, effort.

In a few years when she decides 1x every two weeks is the norm and you go along, then 1x a month, you'll recall my advise and maybe go back to read what I wrote about SLA. Pity I'm not 20 years​ younger, my SLA theory would make an awesome NIH grant application.


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## 241happyhour (Jan 31, 2011)

Like others said---Decide what you can live with. After our third child my wife was kind of like you have stated earlier. On a schedule about once a week. After a short period of time we had a sit down conversation where I basically said this will not work for me and I am unwilling to spend the next 50 years like this. I truly meant what I said and I made it very clear. She knew I wasn't bluffing. That was 8 1/2 years ago and there has not been a problem since. We usually have sex 3-5 times a week. I can live with that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Unfortunately we have a fairly limited view of the LD world. And the reason for that is fairly obvious. 

They get treated bad and either stop posting about their situation or leave TAM entirely.

I see every LD participant as a golden opportunity to help their (probably) frustrated HD partner - by helping them. Help LD person = help the marriage = help the sex life.....

That is clearly a minority viewpoint. 

And - WRT sexually frustrated folks - very few of them have the sort of mindset that @farsidejunky brought to the table. 




john117 said:


> There isn't one.
> 
> One of the major deficiencies in tam is the lack of people who have successfully addressed LD spouse issues in a repeatable, measurable, and explainable manner. Thus, much of the advise offered is either from people who never experienced the issue at hand, experienced it but had a cooperating and involved LD spouse (unicorn territory), or those who haven't​ found a solution yet.
> 
> Makes for fun reading tho, nearly as much fun as reading consumer reviews of the stuff I help design 😎.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

LD is virtually all about control, and not about some mysterious psychosomatic ailments​ that make some people dislike intimacy.

You could have a TAM Prime's worth of LD posters and I doubt even one would step up to the plate and present the real reason.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I think that is generally the case. The control theme. Thing is - there's two sides to this coin. LD: control
HD: Ego protection

And you my man - are a poster child for the latter. It's why you can't see the catalyst for J2's slow motion implosion. 

At a certain point - she figured out that you love the girls more - way more - than you love her. Love - in this case - quantitatively expressed in budgets. As in: the best is barely good enough for the girls
And the 'best' as it pertains to J2's desires - was met with thinly veiled contempt.






john117 said:


> LD is virtually all about control, and not about some mysterious psychosomatic ailments​ that make some people dislike intimacy.
> 
> You could have a TAM Prime's worth of LD posters and I doubt even one would step up to the plate and present the real reason.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, why do you think LD is about control? Why is it not just about preference?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Control is exerted because there is a preference.

Now, what led to that preference may be their natural drive, a history of sexual assault, poor treatment by the other spouse, or anywhere in between. 

However, control is necessary to remain LD, and every LD I can recall who has come on to TAM to talk about it is clearly desiring such. F2 is no different.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> MEM, why do you think LD is about control? Why is it not just about preference?


I don't think it's _about_ control, but the person who is LD requires it to maintain their self-imposed 'ideal' amount of sex, or sexual contact OR to keep it at their maximum amount of sex or sexual contact. (my wife is the latter, with once a week being her max, not her ideal.)


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> I think that is generally the case. The control theme. Thing is - there's two sides to this coin. LD: control
> HD: Ego protection
> 
> ...


Hmm, maybe but I don't know. Flip that script, women do that all the time. A virtual genetic prime directive.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Update #1 - no sex last night, but I didn't have to avoid or reject. Went to bed at the same time after being out most of the night (but not too late). She wanted to snuggle, so we did for a while. I imagine she was expecting it would turn into something, but I kept my hands to myself.

I actually enjoyed the cuddling, knowing that it wasn't going to turn into something. We talked about the evening, and plans for today. Eventually I rolled over and slept like a baby.

I have no doubt she went to bed wondering why I didn't make a move for sex, but I don't think she was too upset about it, either.

So there you go - I stuck to my guns and didn't have to make an issue out of it.

Keep in mind, folks, I'm not doing this to prove a point to her, so much as I'm just not happy with things the way they are at the moment. Sex on her schedule doesn't make me feel good. Talking to her about it has accomplished nothing. This isn't a protest or a 'work-to-rule' so much as it is me just not wanting to feel empty. If she had been aggressive last night, I wouldn't have stopped her, or pushed her off or anything - I don't want to totally reject her, as that would be very counter productive.

But Hope has the right idea in regards to her husband and my similar issue - I'm not going to chase this any longer. We happened to go to bed at the same time last night, I didn't go to bed because she was going to bed, therefore that was my chance, or my 'opening'. As Hope said, her sex life is essentially the same as mine, but instead of bedtime, once a week, it's morning, once a week. If she's awake before her hubby, she'll wait for him to wake up and then do what he normally does, and she gets laid. If he wakes before her, she'll be woken up by him for sex.

So, like her, we're both working around our spouses schedule, on the one day a week, and that one time, where we know it's going to happen if we just follow their rules. Yeah, we know we can get laid at that one time, but we have no control over it.

For me, it's a shift in mindset. I had been conditioned (like Pavlov's dog) to get my sex fix at that day and time. So yes, I was getting laid, but I had no control over any of it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> I think that is generally the case. The control theme. Thing is - there's two sides to this coin. LD: control
> HD: Ego protection
> 
> ...


Not quite, as the fireworks started long before the tuition checks started flowing. 

And, ego protection has nothing to do with it as well. Everyone has a need to be loved, regardless of imperfections. 

Thanks for making my point tho 😀


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> MEM, why do you think LD is about control? Why is it not just about preference?


When you deprive your own self of the benefits of intimacy it is 100% control.

You also make my point about TAM.... This is self evident territory 😀


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> I don't think it's _about_ control, but the person who is LD requires it to maintain their self-imposed 'ideal' amount of sex, or sexual contact OR to keep it at their maximum amount of sex or sexual contact. (my wife is the latter, with once a week being her max, not her ideal.)


Bingo. That's what SLA is all about.

Can it be fixed without nuclear option?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Control is exerted because there is a preference.
> 
> Now, what led to that preference may be their natural drive, a history of sexual assault, poor treatment by the other spouse, or anywhere in between.
> 
> However, control is necessary to remain LD, and every LD I can recall who has come on to TAM to talk about it is clearly desiring such. F2 is no different.


Well, maybe I am just not getting it. To me, it does not seem like control.

But this is probably a subject for a separate thread.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

One of the most basic psych experiments is the kid and candy experiment. You tell a kid he can have one piece of candy today or wait till tomorrow to get two pieces. 

Intimacy is no different. The subject exerts control by depriving themselves - and their partners - of an important resource. 

I would elaborate more but this is pretty simple stuff. The pleasure derived from control is more than that from the benefit.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

alexm said:


> Update #1 - no sex last night, but I didn't have to avoid or reject. Went to bed at the same time after being out most of the night (but not too late). She wanted to snuggle, so we did for a while. I imagine she was expecting it would turn into something, but I kept my hands to myself.
> 
> I actually enjoyed the cuddling, knowing that it wasn't going to turn into something. We talked about the evening, and plans for today. Eventually I rolled over and slept like a baby.
> 
> ...


I think that's great that you didn't initiate an experience that would have been be a negative emotional experience for you!! I have a history? with this, too. I was in a relationship post divorce in which my partner controlled when sex happened. I eventually stopped contorting my time/life to adhere to his only offered scheduled time, and also I stopped wanting sex with him. It just wasn't a good or healthy dynamic. Not even close to happy or fulfilling.

What is your next step, though? Your wife's mindset and schedule remain. How many weeks can you go without sex? Aren't you absolutely going to have to talk to her about this?


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Scheduled sex can feel like duty sex, we all want to be lusted after and feel validated. The problem is that you don't discuss with your partner that you want to feel desired by them and then they don't want sex on the scheduled night, the rejection could feel all the more worse. 

We can't read our spouses minds, that's why we need to talk. 
There's nothing wrong with saying "I want you to desire me" most people are afraid if they say this the answer will not be good, so sometimes they don't ask, because that is the biggest hurt of all, being married to someone who doesn't desire you sexually anymore. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> Scheduled sex can feel like duty sex, we all want to be lusted after and feel validated. The problem is that you don't discuss with your partner that you want to feel desired by them and then they don't want sex on the scheduled night, the rejection could feel all the more worse.
> 
> We can't read our spouses minds, that's why we need to talk.
> There's nothing wrong with saying "I want you to desire me" most people are afraid if they say this the answer will not be good, so sometimes they don't ask, because that is the biggest hurt of all, being married to someone who doesn't desire you sexually anymore.
> ...


I'm pretty sure OP and his wife have discussed this. She doesn't desire him, she straight out doesn't think about sex or look forward to it.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> One of the most basic psych experiments is the kid and candy experiment. You tell a kid he can have one piece of candy today or wait till tomorrow to get two pieces.
> 
> Intimacy is no different. The subject exerts control by depriving themselves - and their partners - of an important resource.
> 
> I would elaborate more but this is pretty simple stuff. The pleasure derived from control is more than that from the benefit.


I completely understand your line of thinking, but I'm over here laughing at all of this. If someone wants to open a new thread on this subject - I'll happily participate as the LD test subject, for whatever limited viewpoint I can offer!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Livvie said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > Update #1 - no sex last night, but I didn't have to avoid or reject. Went to bed at the same time after being out most of the night (but not too late). She wanted to snuggle, so we did for a while. I imagine she was expecting it would turn into something, but I kept my hands to myself.
> ...


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I'm pretty sure OP and his wife have discussed this. She doesn't desire him, she straight out doesn't think about sex or look forward to it.


And yet he wants her to flirt during the week before sex.
He wants to feel some passion and desire from her. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

I would love to know that I could look forward to sex once every week; without fail.

Just the fact that my husband would schedule it, would show that he wanted sex with me.

I'm sorry alexm. I'm not making light of your situation. Everything is relative; and I think you are younger than me by about 10 years or so. It's different at 51 than it is at 41, no doubt.

And my statement sounds like "Clean your plate, do you know how many starving children in China would love to eat those brussel sprouts?"

But, your situation sounds pretty good to me. When you feel bad; look beneath you.

btw, "Let's go upstairs" sounds super sexy to me. Someone upthread said it sounded "beta", or whatever. I don't think so at all.


It's like having a date every Sunday, where you know you'll be getting sex. 

But, nevertheless, I hope it gets better for you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Alex, if she likes the cuddling, how about just initiating cuddling sessions for a while?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I completely understand your line of thinking, but I'm over here laughing at all of this. If someone wants to open a new thread on this subject - I'll happily participate as the LD test subject, for whatever limited viewpoint I can offer!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Are you self cognizant enough to acknowledge your innate state of mind ?This is the clarity that I see missing. For most people, things just are. Without a real explanation.

They may be able to rationalize an answer, but for the most part they make it up as they go. To themselves, and by association, to everyone else.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Alex, if she likes the cuddling, how about just initiating cuddling sessions for a while?


She could even be reading her favorite book while you cuddle.

Oops, old thread 😀


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

OP, do you believe it is a control thing or just low desire on her part? The thing is, most women need and want an emotional connection to desire sex. I know I do and I love sex with my husband. I'm not saying that you're not trying, but to some women "Let's go upstairs" is not necessarily going to get us in the mood. 

The number 1 thing that makes me desire sex is non-sexual intimacy outside of the bedroom. 

If she isn't feeling desire and she has sex with you anyway, it can create an aversion, which may be what's happening. She does it to appease you but no longer enjoys it herself.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> She does it to appease you but no longer enjoys it herself.


But I got the impression that the sex was mad good from what alexm said upthread???


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

alexm said:


> Big time, yeah. Which makes it all the more confusing to me. I've called it 'porn sex' here before, and that's pretty much the best description I can give of it.
> 
> *Physically, I've never had sex this good in my life, and I can't imagine anybody could top her - no exaggeration.
> *
> It's so confusing.




^^Here.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

notmyrealname4 said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > Big time, yeah. Which makes it all the more confusing to me. I've called it 'porn sex' here before, and that's pretty much the best description I can give of it.
> ...


I'm thinking it's because on the weekends they spend more time together dating? I could be wrong. I know the OP said they spend time together during the week but could be that they aren't spending time meeting intimate needs during the week.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> I'm thinking it's because on the weekends they spend more time together dating? I could be wrong. I know the OP said they spend time together during the week but could be that they aren't spending time meeting intimate needs during the week.




I see what you're saying.

Personally, I don't care about "meeting intimate needs" during the week? What does that even mean? I'm not picking on you, Jessica. I guess, I just think that if you're married; that vow and commitment is the main intimate need, and so sex should be on as much as desired (within reason of course, no-one who is recovering from stomach flu, or who just had a baby; should have to have sex).


Life is busy and who's got the time to "date" during the week?

If alexm, or any other married person isn't helping with the chores or childcare et.al., then guess what---it shouldn't get done.

If alexm (or any other guy--we'll use a guy in this example), doesn't help with the chores; then he needs to accept that the laundry won't always be done, and there's sometimes a peanut butter sandwich stuck to the carpet in one of the kids' room, and the car is covered in muck, and we'll be eating canned ravioli.

Because if I'm gonna have sex, I need to feel relaxed and happy. So, if I work all day and he works all day---I'm not doing all the chores. Things are gonna slide around the house.

@alexm are you part of the "wife wants me to vacuum" brigade? Do you vacuum? Do you split chores?

Does your wife want to "date" on weeknights?

Sorry if I'm offbase on any of this.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I see what you're saying.
> 
> Personally, I don't care about "meeting intimate needs" during the week? What does that even mean? I'm not picking on you, Jessica. I guess, I just think that if you're married; that vow and commitment is the main intimate need, and so sex should be on as much as desired (within reason of course, *no-one who is recovering from stomach flu, or who just had a baby; should have to have sex*).
> 
> ...


If I thought I "had to" have sex, I don't think I would ever want it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> > I see what you're saying.
> ...


And if my husband told me that "life is busy, who's got time to date during the week" I don't think I'd want sex at all.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> If I thought I "had to" have sex, I don't think I would ever want it.




I don't know how you can be married (voluntarily) to a person you love and are attracted to; and not WANT to have sex most of the time. Or, at least be willing to lovingly participate. Why would you ever feel like you "had to"?




Jessica38 said:


> And if my husband told me that "life is busy, who's got time to date during the week" I don't think I'd want sex at all.



When couples are still single and dating; it's a whole other ball of wax.

Even then, you don't date most weeknights. You have to get up and go to work in the morning; or go to school, or both.

Most dating is on the weekend.

Once you have careers/jobs, a home to run together, children, etc. etc., there isn't much time to date on weeknights.

Being together is the "date", that you entered into when you got married.


Just a different point of view.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
I should have been clearer in my comment about control. 

There is no correlation between desire level and need to control. 

The post I made on that topic - should have read: 

If your partner is LD and the result is that you are in a sexless marriage, that is often a matter of control. 
----------------
Before getting to the explanation below - I will point out that most folks who behave very badly avoid MC and forums such as this because they KNOW at some level they can't justify their behavior. And that most LD folks who explain why they are LD with their partners - seem like decent folks dealing with a difficult set of cards - so to speak. 

----------------
As for the hard core cases that are described here - the pattern appears to be: 
- I'm 100% comfortable rejecting my HD partner
- I claim that THEY are the one with the problem 
- I refuse to discuss the situation or try to address it
-----------------

That said - it is hard to be confident as to what is really happening - because the HDs are often very ego protective. And it is likely that being rejected - amplifies that behavior of theirs. 







jld said:


> Alex, if she likes the cuddling, how about just initiating cuddling sessions for a while?


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

notmyrealname4 said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > If I thought I "had to" have sex, I don't think I would ever want it.
> ...


When you're married, you still have to date your spouse. Otherwise, couples fall out of love. It's the premise of the book His Needs, Her Needs written by a licensed psychologist who found in is clinical practice that successful marriages where couples are still in love after decades (1 in 5) continue dating long-term.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> ....because the HDs are often very ego protective. * And it is likely that being rejected - amplifies that behavior of theirs.*




Obvious. Stated.


But let's not kid ourselves. I do have to allow that maybe I'm "not all that".

51-year-old me is not 21 or 31 or even 41-year-old me.

I think the HD does sometimes have to rub their own face in the fact that, for whatever reason, they do not inspire or motivate the LD spouse to change/improve/make an effort---whatever you wanna call it.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> When you're married, you still have to date your spouse.




Sure thing.

Just mostly on the weekend (for most 'regular' people of limited $$ means).


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Jessica38 said:
> 
> 
> > When you're married, you still have to date your spouse.
> ...


Actually, Dr. Harley and Dr. Gorman recommend at least 15 hours a week quality time w your spouse to meet top needs in marriage, including sex. Sure, the bulk of this time comes on the weekends, but many couples (even those with 5 kids and 1 income) find ways to make this happen during the week. 

The average person watches TV for 4 hours/day. It's all about priorities.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dr. Gottman. Sorry on my iPhone and can't edit post.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Well, @Jessica38, I think what you describe is ideal. And there's nothing wrong with that.

It's just that ideals are rarely realistic. That's why they're called ideals.

You can aim for 15 hours a week of exclusive "couple time".

But accept that you'll probably only get about 8-10 hours, and it will mostly be on the weekend.

And that's if you're fortunate enough to work similar shifts.

I worked nights for several years. Your marriage really does take a beating from that. Anytime posters here say they are working two different shifts; I'm the first to recommend they end that arrangement as soon possible.

But it's not always possible. Most folks can't just walk away from a job.

As usual, a lot of these issues can be solved with money. If you can pay someone to clean your house and mow your lawn; then none of this stuff applies.

Most people don't have that luxury.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Well, @Jessica38, I think what you describe is ideal. And there's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> It's just that ideals are rarely realistic. That's why they're called ideals.
> 
> ...


Many couples make this happen. Even with 5 kids. Of course, many don't- which is why only 1 in 5 marriages are considered happy and healthy where the top 4 emotional needs in marriage are met: conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sex.

Dr. Harley found that the 15 hours a week meeting these needs is so important for marriage that he won't agree to counsel a couple if they won't make this time possible. He found that a successful marriage is very difficult without it.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> Many couples make this happen. Even with 5 kids.


Wow! That's impressive. I would guess that if they have 5 kids, that one of the couple stays home.

Good to know that it can work for some people out there.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

With 5 kids both sides are royally screwed in case of a divorce so... Unless the wage earner is a dot com millionaire you better believe it. Also religion and personal values.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

john117 said:


> With 5 kids both sides are royally screwed in case of a divorce so... Unless the wage earner is a dot com millionaire you better believe it. Also religion and personal values.


And people prioritize what's important to them.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> And people prioritize what's important to them.


With 5 kids the priorities are predetermined


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The comical aspect of all this - is that number is treated like gospel. Like it is fact. 

But I have news for you - by itself - that number is completely meaningless. 

Companionship - the real deal - is like sex - not subject to quotas. Trying to impose a top down quota is unlikely to produce a good outcome. 

I saw this - in a marriage that was unraveling. The husband disengaged - the wife self righteously demanding more time together as part of marital privilege.

M2 goes shopping for house stuff - I don't go to make 'quota' for the week. Or to avoid an angry reaction. Or to increase the odds of getting laid. 

I go because - somehow - rolling towards thirty years - whatever we are doing - is fun because we are doing it together. Kayaking, xword puzzling, hiking, shopping - each just presents a different set of 'props' to play with. 

It's good and healthy for people to try to find stuff they like doing together. Inspire your partner to WANT to spend time with you and they will. 





Jessica38 said:


> Many couples make this happen. Even with 5 kids. Of course, many don't- which is why only 1 in 5 marriages are considered happy and healthy where the top 4 emotional needs in marriage are met: conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sex.
> 
> Dr. Harley found that the 15 hours a week meeting these needs is so important for marriage that he won't agree to counsel a couple if they won't make this time possible. He found that a successful marriage is very difficult without it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There are few people I can stand to be around for 15 hours a week... My cat, on the other hand...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> If I thought I "had to" have sex, I don't think I would ever want it.


 @jld so if for whatever reason Doug absolutely has to have it, but you don't think you can get in the mood, BUT you promised him some quality intimate time moments before leaving on a week-long trip.... 

....he then has to just be OK with helping you pack and a small hug good bye?

The truth is that you actually do "have to" have sex in your relationship, but because you are enjoying it you have not likely had to struggle with how your partner reacts over a long period of time when the two of you sexually withdraw from one another. While I am not suggesting that you experiment with stopping sex for a few months to see exactly how he behaves towards you, the dynamics of your relationship would become very toxic without sex unless the two of you found a way to work through it and "make it happen" for one another.

There is no shame in a couple that struggles and works on doing whatever it takes to make it happen and get the romance back going again.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> The comical aspect of all this - is that number is treated like gospel. Like it is fact.
> 
> But I have news for you - by itself - that number is completely meaningless.
> 
> ...


Yes, this is what Gottman and Harley both describe in their work- those 15 hours together should be spent doing MUTUALLY enjoyable things that both spouses agree upon. 

It goes a long way in building the bond that creates romantic love. Not saying the OP isn't doing that, just that if they are spending time meeting those needs instead of doing what many couples in LTR do (sitting in the same room essentially ignoring each other, watching TV in the evenings, recreating separately, living like roommates), his wife may actually be up for having sex during the time that her other needs are being met.

I can't tell you how many marriages I've watched go down in recent years now that we are hitting the 15 yr mark, and the wives almost ALWAYS say it is because they were essentially becoming "roommates" and "two ships passing in the night." 

It is equally important to inspire your partner to want have sex with you, rather than meeting a quota that they're supposed to fulfill, similar to the importance that a spouse inspire their partner to spend time with them.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

badsanta said:


> @jld so if for whatever reason Doug absolutely has to have it, but you don't think you can get in the mood, BUT you promised him some quality intimate time moments before leaving on a week-long trip....
> 
> ....*he then has to just be OK* with helping you pack and a small hug good bye?
> 
> ...


The answer is YES, I would have to be ok with it. I am not entitled to have sex with my wife and my wife does not have the duty to have sex with me.

Sex is like food, it is a need. But if you do not work and earn money, there will be no food on the table.

This entitlement mentality is what is wrong with humankind. I am not entitled to sex. I have sex with my wife because she wants to have sex with me. When I retire, I am not entitled to a social security check. I will get one if society feels like giving one to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Yes, this is what Gottman and Harley both describe in their work- those 15 hours together should be spent doing MUTUALLY enjoyable things that both spouses agree upon.
> 
> It goes a long way in building the bond that creates romantic love. Not saying the OP isn't doing that, just that if they are spending time meeting those needs instead of doing what many couples in LTR do (sitting in the same room essentially ignoring each other, watching TV in the evenings, recreating separately, living like roommates), his wife may actually be up for having sex during the time that her other needs are being met.
> 
> ...


Are you sure Gottman says 15 hours a week? I thought it was 5 or 6. That seems more realistic. 

Dug and I have 5 kids, and the weeks we have spent 15 hours together one on one have been few and far between. 

What you really want is for the man to devote those six hours to nurturing his wife. Talk about her interests, do the things she likes to do. Create attachment, and the sex will surely follow.

That is what Dug has done, anyway.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> Are you sure Gottman says 15 hours a week? I thought it was 5 or 6. That seems more realistic.
> 
> Dug and I have 5 kids, and the weeks we have spent 15 hours together one on one have been few and far between.
> 
> ...


I thought so too but another poster recently mentioned that Gottman's recent research led to the recommendation of 15 hours a week non-TV time for couples for a successful marriage. This is Dr. Harley's findings from his research at UC Riverside as well.

Here was DustyDog's quote from this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/home-p...uch-time-you-spend-together.html#post17638193

"Too, I am informed by reality. John Gottman's "Love Lab" in Seattle, after decades of study, measurement etc, has determined that there really is a numerical value. 15 hours a week. Below 15 hours a week of couples time, the statistical probability of divorce within the next ten years takes a significant spike upwards - like doubles, if I recall. "Couples time" by their definition requires some involvement. You could be working a project together, walking (even silently) in a low-distraction environment such as a nature park (a mall is high-distraction and only counts as couple time if you're engaged in conversations while being there). TV watching is never "couples" time according to the Love Lab."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I thought so too but another poster recently mentioned that Gottman's recent research led to the recommendation of 15 hours a week non-TV time for couples for a successful marriage. This is Dr. Harley's findings from his research at UC Riverside as well.


Did they provide a citation? They may have just confused Gottman with Harley.

Here is a reference for the 6 hours from the Gottman Institute:

https://www.gottman.com/blog/6-hours-a-week-to-a-better-relationship/

Jessica, I have a good marriage of 23 years. And I can assure you that it is rare that my husband and I have ever gotten 15 hours a week. A solid, stable marriage can be built on much less than 15 hours a week. 

Honestly, I think it's mostly about having values and goals in common.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> Did they provide a citation? They may have just confused Gottman with Harley.
> 
> Here is a reference for the 6 hours from the Gottman Institute:
> 
> ...


Point taken, but Dr. Harley found that it's one of the most important things a couple can do in marriage. Obviously, not everyone subscribes to that though. 

I've seen both interpretations of Gottman's work- the Magic 5 Hours and 12-15 hours non-sleep, non-TV time together. Harley talks about 15 hours total for meeting all 4 emotional needs. In the link above, it seems that Gottman is saying those 6 hours are enough? It doesn't include sex though. So maybe if you add another 2-3 hours a week (YMMV) after the recommendations in Gottman's link above you have 8-9 hours/week. 

I agree, that does seem more doable for most than 15 hours. 

You make a great point though- if you're happy in your marriage and don't hit that magic number, who says that's good or bad? I think the idea is that for many couples where one spouse feels neglected, it's a good way to prioritize the marriage when it seems there are SO many competing interests and only so much time, especially when you have a family.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ah, the fallacy of behavioral psychology using mostly subjective survey / interview data and fewer objective data.

We use them as well but we back the qualitative data with solid experiments and data collection. 

I can believe 1 hour a day of together time helping an already good marriage, maybe even a marginal one. But take a poor situation and too many hours in close proximity reminds me of another psychology experiment...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica, I continue to search, but I am not finding anything linking Gottman to a recommendation of 15 hours a week. I am only finding recs for 5 or 6 hours.

Please link if you find something. We want to give out accurate citations of his research, right?

Also, did Harley do actual peer-reviewed research? Or are his recs just based on his experience/philosophy?

Alex, I think you can do this on much less than 15 hours. But I would highly suggest focusing those hours. Jmo.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Livvie said:


> I'm pretty sure OP and his wife have discussed this. She doesn't desire him, she straight out doesn't think about sex or look forward to it.


The second part is correct. But she does desire me, just not sex.



MrsAldi said:


> And yet he wants her to flirt during the week before sex.
> He wants to feel some passion and desire from her.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Ideally, yes, but I've long given up on that! No-win battle.



Jessica38 said:


> OP, do you believe it is a control thing or just low desire on her part? The thing is, most women need and want an emotional connection to desire sex. I know I do and I love sex with my husband. I'm not saying that you're not trying, but to some women "Let's go upstairs" is not necessarily going to get us in the mood.
> 
> The number 1 thing that makes me desire sex is non-sexual intimacy outside of the bedroom.
> 
> If she isn't feeling desire and she has sex with you anyway, it can create an aversion, which may be what's happening. She does it to appease you but no longer enjoys it herself.


It's both control and low desire. Lack of desire brings the need for control.

There's plenty of non-sexual intimacy, believe me!



notmyrealname4 said:


> But I got the impression that the sex was mad good from what alexm said upthread???


It is


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

notmyrealname4 said:


> @alexm are you part of the "wife wants me to vacuum" brigade? Do you vacuum? Do you split chores?
> 
> Does your wife want to "date" on weeknights?
> 
> Sorry if I'm offbase on any of this.


Not offbase.

No, I do my fair share and more. I'm self-employed, and the wife is out the door before the kids and I are even up. I'm home when they get home. I have time to do a lot of the household stuff, and make slightly more than she does, to boot.

She does her share, too, of course. I'd say it's 55/45 me, though.

If you include breakfasts, school lunches and most dinners, it's more me, but I don't really include those in the chore category. People gotta eat, and she doesn't like to cook :|


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> Jessica, I continue to search, but I am not finding anything linking Gottman to a recommendation of 15 hours a week. I am only finding recs for 5 or 6 hours.
> 
> Please link if you find something. We want to give out accurate citations of his research, right?
> 
> ...


I would say we're way over that, TBH. The bulk of it is on weekends, yes, but we do also have time throughout the week. 

Both of the kids are old enough to not only look after themselves, and they're also not always home, either.

We don't watch a LOT of tv, but when we do, about 75% of the time we're next to each other, and at least touching (holding hands for example) and quite often straight up cuddling.

Today, we changed over our winter tires for the summers, and did it together. Younger son came out to "help" for a bit... We made a mundane chore fun. Went and got coffee afterwards. We spent an hour or so in bed this morning, awake, just chatting and laughing. We folded laundry together. Visited with my mom as a family. BBQ shopping the other day. Board game with the younger kid yesterday. Out with friends last evening. etc etc etc.

This is a typical week for us. A good mix of alone time, family time, and friends. I also get out on my own for at least a few hours a week, and each of us has a healthy amount of true alone time (apart from each other, and often the kids).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

We are kind of old - youngest child is in Korea teaching English, middle child finishing senior year of college - oldest graduated and living with her boyfriend. So we have the house to ourselves and a lot of time together. 

Not sure I agree with the sort of one sided 'wife nurturing' approach to time together described below. Though I guess that sort of does happen to a degree. 

The English had this concept called noblesse oblige - defined below. And it was the basis for chivalry. Women - were viewed as lesser creatures - and therefore deserving of special consideration. 

1. the inferred responsibility of privileged people to act with generosity and nobility toward those less privileged.
"there was to being a celebrity a certain element of noblesse oblige"

-------------
But - there is nothing lesser about M2. 

So the reason she always gets the best seat - at the restaurant - movie theater - theater theater - first dibs on anything that exists in limited quantity - is solely because I want that outcome. And that desire - is hardwired. 

Occasionally we have a brief ping pong of - you go first - no you go first. Typically one of us short circuits that rally with some playful but determined move - and the other yields. 







jld said:


> Are you sure Gottman says 15 hours a week? I thought it was 5 or 6. That seems more realistic.
> 
> Dug and I have 5 kids, and the weeks we have spent 15 hours together one on one have been few and far between.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The five days I spent in Washington DC 24/7 with J2 convinced me that 15 hours a year is a pretty good target...

My late brother followed Mem's advise. He put his wife on a pedestal sized for the Statue of Liberty.... I'm sure he's busy in the afterlife counting how many times he noblesse oblige'd her...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

alexm said:


> This is a typical week for us.


So through that typical week for you both, in fleeting moments did you sometimes flirt with your wife and tease her sexually? Did you try to do something a little bit risqué with her? Did you kiss your wife provocatively on the mouth (with tongue) and then quickly stop, when your kids or friends were out of a sight line with you both?

If you didn't do any of the above, why?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
If one can judge a society by the way it treats its prisoners, than perhaps one can judge a person by the way they treat those - who can do nothing for them. Certainly the very old and the very young fall into this category. 

And in that respect, M2 has no peer. 

She starts a recycling program wherever she goes to work. And is generally determined to leave the earth better than she found it. 

So if it's true she is on an elevated plane - its cause she climbed the mountain all by herself - not because I catapulted her up there. 




john117 said:


> The five days I spent in Washington DC 24/7 with J2 convinced me that 15 hours a year is a pretty good target...
> 
> My late brother followed Mem's advise. He put his wife on a pedestal sized for the Statue of Liberty.... I'm sure he's busy in the afterlife counting how many times he noblesse oblige'd her...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
Reason you are so jammed up here - is that in the past - you said what was true - but your delivery was neither low affect nor concise. 

You will likely be pleasantly surprised by the reaction to a low affect, super concise delivery style. 

Just do not bluff. Women are the ultimate poker players. They will pick up a bluff a mile away. 

No offense intended but you have been sort of kind of half threatening to leave her over this crap for many years. 

Let me try and be helpful here. M2 does some stuff that is - not ideal. She does. And it's patterned. Thing is - it isn't even close to end game territory. So I've learned to say what's true - clearly, concisely and calmly which is: Babe, it would be really nice if you would do X when Y happens. 

That's it. She knows what's happening. And that it isn't really fair/right/defensible. 

But it isn't even close to creating a true breach. 

If I say: babe - that doesn't work for me - she KNOWS what that means. And it doesn't mean I'm leaving. Just that - if pushed - I might lose my motivation to do all the stuff that she is used to and loves. But my delivery isn't angry - it is more - disappointed.




alexm said:


> I would say we're way over that, TBH. The bulk of it is on weekends, yes, but we do also have time throughout the week.
> 
> Both of the kids are old enough to not only look after themselves, and they're also not always home, either.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> If one can judge a society by the way it treats its prisoners, than perhaps one can judge a person by the way they treat those - who can do nothing for them. Certainly the very old and the very young fall into this category.
> 
> And in that respect, M2 has no peer.
> ...


It matters little how one gets on the pedestal. One shouldn't be put on one, period.

A marriage is a relationship of equals. There's too much at stake otherwise.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, have you read Gottman's book, _The Man's Guide to Women_, from 2016? 

It says that "men make or break heterosexual relationships." In it Gottman encourages men to "attune" to their wives, and explains how.

That may not feel fair. But sometimes life is easier if we just focus on what works.

I think focusing those six hours on your wife is the shortcut, Alex.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> Reason you are so jammed up here - is that in the past - you said what was true - but your delivery was neither low affect nor concise.
> 
> You will likely be pleasantly surprised by the reaction to a low affect, super concise delivery style.
> ...


But the underlying threat is still there.

I don't think this is healthy.

ETA: This might help explain the concern: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-way-you-fight-can-threaten-your-relationship


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> So through that typical week for you both, in fleeting moments did you sometimes flirt with your wife and tease her sexually? Did you try to do something a little bit risqué with her? Did you kiss your wife provocatively on the mouth (with tongue) and then quickly stop, when your kids or friends were out of a sight line with you both?
> 
> If you didn't do any of the above, why?


Flirting sexually, or being overt like that accomplishes nothing. I learned that years ago. It either generates no response, or a somewhat negative one. That doesn't mean I still don't occasionally do these things, though. I know what the outcome will be, but I don't care.

That's what I'm saying. Outside of this weekly time frame, it's a no-fly zone.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> Update #1 - no sex last night, but I didn't have to avoid or reject. Went to bed at the same time after being out most of the night (but not too late). She wanted to snuggle, so we did for a while. I imagine she was expecting it would turn into something, but I kept my hands to myself.
> 
> I actually enjoyed the cuddling, knowing that it wasn't going to turn into something. We talked about the evening, and plans for today. Eventually I rolled over and slept like a baby.
> 
> ...


Honestly, a shift in mindset is a good thing. You spent time with her, got a chance to cuddle, and slept like a baby, in part b/c your expectations were adjusted (minimize frustration, etc...). I know people will say it is not "healthy", but when many of the other aspects in the marriage are going well, sometimes it is just better to have that change in mindset. Maybe in the long run it isn't ideal, but the reality there are situations where unless you are willing to basically walk away from the person, things aren't going to change dramatically, and you can't force someone to do something they really aren't driven to do. For me, it just isn't worth putting much effort into sex (in terms of pursuing / initiating) since it is so one sided. Life goes on, just focus on all the other positive things. There is a trade off of course, but even though this isn't necessarily the best option for my W it is the best alternative. I do sleep like a baby now


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly, a shift in mindset is a good thing. You spent time with her, got a chance to cuddle, and slept like a baby, in part b/c your expectations were adjusted (minimize frustration, etc...). I know people will say it is not "healthy", but when many of the other aspects in the marriage are gong well, sometimes it is just better to have that change in mindset. Maybe in the long run it isn't ideal, but the reality there are situations where unless you are willing to basically walk away from the person, things aren't going to change dramatically, and you can't force someone to do something they really aren't driven to do. For me, it just isn't worth putting much effort into sex (in terms of pursuing / initiating) since it is so one sided. Life goes on, just focus on all the other positive things. There is a trade off of course, but even though this isn't necessarily the best option for my W it is the best alternative. I do sleep like a baby now


I agree with this. I don't think I ever saw myself getting to this point, but here I am.

The thing is, once you stop looking at it like "she wins, and gets her way", it's no big deal. I mean, it's not a competition, is it?

I don't look at it as me giving up, or acquiescing, it's just that I'm tired, and it's a losing battle. And I never wanted it to be a battle in the first place.

But the reality is that I'm settling. I've mentioned this in passing to her before - that I AM settling in this regard. I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't want my partner to feel like she's settling for me in any one area. If she can live with that, so be it, but perhaps at some point it will dawn on her that, at least in this one area, she's being settled for and that may not sit well with her. She's actually kind of like that, personality-wise.

Currently (or up to fairly recently, to be more precise) all of this has likely made her feel like she's getting her way - a win in her column. So being settled for doesn't register.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I agree with this. I don't think I ever saw myself getting to this point, but here I am.
> 
> The thing is, once you stop looking at it like "she wins, and gets her way", it's no big deal. I mean, it's not a competition, is it?
> 
> ...


There seems to be underlying resentment here, Alex, and maybe projection, which is not healthy.

Have you two ever gone to marriage counseling? (Sorry if this has already been discussed.)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> There seems to be underlying resentment here, Alex, and maybe projection, which is not healthy.
> 
> Have you two ever gone to marriage counseling? (Sorry if this has already been discussed.)


Resentment on my part, you mean? Hard to say. I think I used to, yes. But lately (say, the past several months) no, not really.

No counselling, no. I won't make excuses as to why not, but it's an option. I don't think we're there yet, nor do I think it would actually be all that helpful, TBH. I'm not against counselling at all, but the issues revolve around her sexuality and mindset about the subject. I think at this point, couples counselling to deal with the sex issue wouldn't be helpful.

I believe what she needs is solo counselling or even outright therapy. She obviously has issues with sex, period, that could be resolved, but I don't think me being present would be helpful.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Update #2 - I could have (should have) added this yesterday while it was more current, but I didn't have the time, and wanted to respond to a couple of the replies at the time.

Sunday morning - had sex (great sex, too...)

Woke up before her, went downstairs to put the coffee on, feed the animals, putter around a bit. Came back upstairs to brush my teeth and get dressed etc. and she was still in bed, but starting to stir. Figured I'd hop back in bed for some cuddling. Kids weren't up yet, and we had no plans for the day.

Did this for 25, 30 minutes or so. She got out of bed to brush her teeth, I stayed there because I was comfortable. She then asked why I came back to bed. Told her I came up to brush my teeth, saw she was stirring, so thought I'd jump in and cuddle with her (I didn't have sex in my mind AT ALL). She jumped back in, and we got to it. Not only that, but she rode me like a stolen horse - not something she does very often - and had multiple orgasms in that position. Finished off in missionary, where she soaked the sheets. (apologize for the TMI, but I think it's relevant to show she was clearly 'into it'.)

I know it's only one day, but this whole 'not expecting or thinking about sex' thing may have some merit...


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I was just listening to something today about sex in marriage and the presenter said that sadly even today many women do not realise the importance of sex in a marriage, particularly to the husbands. It is a deep seated need whereas many women can go without it for some time. She said women don't get it as the don't have the same need. However, women on the other hand have a deep need to talk and connect with their husbands.
She said women who don't want to give it up should think about her husband coming home and not talking to her for 4 hours, for 4 days, for 4 weeks, for 4 months, 4 years, whatever, how would she feel?

I thought that this was an interesting perspective. However, on the other hand there are many husbands who put in little effort in meeting the needs of their wives, so should wives still give it up if she doesn't feel like it? 

BTW I am not talking about myself, I enjoy that aspect too much


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> The answer is YES, I would have to be ok with it. I am not entitled to have sex with my wife and my wife does not have the duty to have sex with me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well said. Maybe not personal entitlement...but a relationship needs it. It's one of the things that makes it an intimate relationship as opposed to a friendship.
But there is also nothing wrong with phasing in and out of friendship versus intimate relationship. Just how life goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Update #2 - I could have (should have) added this yesterday while it was more current, but I didn't have the time, and wanted to respond to a couple of the replies at the time.
> 
> Sunday morning - had sex (great sex, too...)
> 
> ...


This is very good. You took time for her, and met her need for cuddling, with no expectation of reciprocation. And yet she reciprocated, with a full and enthusiastic heart. 

Sounds like Dug and me.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> @jld so if for whatever reason Doug absolutely has to have it, but you don't think you can get in the mood, BUT you promised him some quality intimate time moments before leaving on a week-long trip....
> 
> ....*he then has to just be OK* with helping you pack and a small hug good bye?
> 
> ...






Duguesclin said:


> The answer is YES, I would have to be ok with it. I am not entitled to have sex with my wife and my wife does not have the duty to have sex with me.
> 
> Sex is like food, it is a need. But if you do not work and earn money, there will be no food on the table.
> 
> *This entitlement mentality is what is wrong with humankind. I am not entitled to sex. I have sex with my wife because she wants to have sex with me.* When I retire, I am not entitled to a social security check. I will get one if society feels like giving one to me.


Thanks for the reply @Duguesclin but take a moment to consider the OP's situation. She has a "responsive drive" and likely NEVER has an existing desire to initiate sex, and likely goes through life as though she would be fine without ever having sex again. I'm sure @alexm DOES work hard in his marriage, but yet things just don't happen naturally for the two of them. 

What would you do in that situation? Just be OK with nothing while you wait for a moment in which a wife with a responsive desire somehow demonstrates spontaneous desire for sex (I know @jld is not like this, but place yourself in alexm shoes)? I am NOT talking about entitlement but instead the "compromises" that couples sometimes make for one another. 

I was in the exact same situation with my wife that I described. She was due to head out the door in an hour, and she was very stressed having to get ready for her trip. Like you I would have been OK to just help her pack her bags and give her a hug on her way out the door. But that is not what happened! My wife knew I was desperate to be with her, and while we did not have sex, she gave me something "to think about" while she was gone, and THAT turned out to be a moment that I will never forget!

Of course I could go back and define that as a moment as a form of "duty sex" and perhaps reject it, but it was so incredible that I am unable to do so and my wife adores that she can have that effect on me even if she is not in the mood. She left with a huge grin on her face.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> I was just listening to something today about sex in marriage and the presenter said that sadly even today many women do not realise the importance of sex in a marriage, particularly to the husbands. It is a deep seated need whereas many women can go without it for some time. She said women don't get it as the don't have the same need. However, women on the other hand have a deep need to talk and connect with their husbands.
> She said women who don't want to give it up should think about her husband coming home and not talking to her for 4 hours, for 4 days, for 4 weeks, for 4 months, 4 years, whatever, how would she feel?
> 
> I thought that this was an interesting perspective. However, on the other hand* there are many husbands who put in little effort in meeting the needs of their wives, so should wives still give it up if she doesn't feel like it? *
> ...


The wife risks developing resentment if she gives first. She also risks his never learning to take any leadership in the marriage.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

aine said:


> I was just listening to something today about sex in marriage and the presenter said that sadly even today many women do not realise the importance of sex in a marriage, particularly to the husbands. It is a deep seated need whereas many women can go without it for some time. She said women don't get it as the don't have the same need. However, women on the other hand have a deep need to talk and connect with their husbands.
> She said women who don't want to give it up should think about her husband coming home and not talking to her for 4 hours, for 4 days, for 4 weeks, for 4 months, 4 years, whatever, how would she feel?
> 
> I thought that this was an interesting perspective. However, on the other hand there are many husbands who put in little effort in meeting the needs of their wives, so should wives still give it up if she doesn't feel like it?
> ...


I think this is a very good point. What happens for some, kinda like the whole chicken or the egg, H needs sex to feel emotionally connected to W to have those deep talks, etc... W needs deep talks to emotionally connect with H for sex. You run into issues where one person gets their needs met and just leaves it at that without working towards meeting the other person's needs (sometimes for selfish reasons, sometimes by no means malicious at all).


----------



## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

Haven't read all the replies beyond the initial post, but will give my thoughts. Apologies in advance if I'm echoing previous posters.

I suffer from a similar situation in my own marriage. Not only can I sympathize with OP, but I can share my experience on avoiding sex.

I avoid sex with my wife because I'm unhappy with all of the restrictions and predictability of the sex. Sex in my marriage is far from hot; it's purely physical and just going through the motions. To me, accepting that kind of sex in a marriage with the mindset that "some sex is better than no sex", is to settle for mediocre sex and pretty much ensures you'll never get better sex from your spouse. In my opinion, the upside of avoiding sex with my wife is the chance that she provides me better sex at some future time. This is only rational behavior if I believe that my wife's infrequent sex is not pity sex, because if she's not in to me, she is made no worse off by my avoidance and has no incentive to provide me with better sex. This is to say, there is only upside if she wants some level of sex with me, though a lesser amount than I would prefer. Assuming this, my upside potential in avoiding is accompanied by an unavoidable downside risk: my wife feeling rejected. If she offers me sex because she wants to have sex with me but I refuse that sex, she will feel bad. I'm OK with my wife feeling bad; I like to think both of us feeling bad about the marriage positions us better for either resolution or divorce. 

I am a younger man with no children out of my marriage, and both my wife and I could do fine financially without each other, so I have very different feelings about divorce than many guys on TAM. Your situation could be different. In the event that you don't see divorce as an option, I recommend that you temporarily avoid intimacy with your wife; invest more time in hobbies, friends, and family to see if your avoidance achieves any benefits in the bedroom. At the same time, you might consider going to a marriage counselor or sex therapist with your wife. If things don't get better, and you're not open to divorce, coping will be your survival. Double up on hobbies, family, and friends to get your mind off of sex, and accept what little sex your wife provides.

That's right. I suggest you actually settle for less sex than you want in the marriage, assuming some avoidance gets you nowhere, divorce is not an option, and you need to cope somehow. I argue that open relationships, cheating, and porn are coping mechanisms for the HD person who's getting shorted on sex by the LD person, but these are destructive for the vast majority of people--they divert your attention and desires away from your spouse; they are bad. So if you must cope, do so in a constructive way and get what sex you can from the wife. Good luck!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> I should have been clearer in my comment about control.
> 
> There is no correlation between desire level and need to control.
> ...


Totally agree with the bolded. Worth much reflection, imo.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and *it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.*
> 
> *Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.*


*



alexm said:



Update #2 - I could have (should have) added this yesterday while it was more current, but I didn't have the time, and wanted to respond to a couple of the replies at the time.

Sunday morning - had sex (great sex, too...)

Click to expand...





jld said:



This is very good. You took time for her, and met her need for cuddling, with no expectation of reciprocation. And yet she reciprocated, with a full and enthusiastic heart. 

Sounds like Dug and me. 

Click to expand...

 @jld but his wife restricted intimacy to the exact same one moment a week, over the weekend.

Why would she not be able to reciprocate on another day outside of this restriction? 

While @alexm was not expecting sex, he was likely NOT exactly in the mood emotionally due to being so constrained with his wife always limiting sex to just on the weekends. But yet when SHE was finally in the mood (or just initiating over the weekend out of routine), he had to go along with it and make the most out of the situation because it is all he is going to get until next weekend.*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @jld but his wife restricted intimacy to the exact same one moment a week, over the weekend.
> 
> Why would she not be able to reciprocate on another day outside of this restriction?
> 
> While @alexm was not expecting sex, he was likely NOT exactly in the mood emotionally due to being so constrained with his wife always limiting sex to just on the weekends. But yet when SHE was finally in the mood (or just initiating over the weekend out of routine), he had to go along with it and make the most out of the situation because it is all he is going to get until next weekend.


What reminded me of us is that he met her need and she responded in kind. There was not a bunch of rules or resentment or entitlement to it.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> But the underlying threat is still there.
> 
> I don't think this is healthy.
> 
> ETA: This might help explain the concern: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-way-you-fight-can-threaten-your-relationship


It is a reminder that both partners needs matter. 

I know you can't fathom not meeting Dug's needs, but I would argue that puts you in a very narrow minority.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> What reminded me of us is that he met her need and she responded in kind. *There was not a bunch of rules or resentment or entitlement to it.*


I would agree with you ONLY had this happened on a weekday.

Otherwise that it did adhere to her rules/routine/restrictions of sex occurring on the "weekends only." That was the exact issue that the OP addressed about when starting this thread. 

Yes the sex was great and the OP did not resent her subjecting him to the weekends only. I would not call it resentment or entitlement, but instead a demonstration of patience and forgiveness that she continues to do something that causes him to struggle emotionally. While alexm describes it as a great moment, he will likely question as to why these things can't just happen more naturally on a nonrestrictive schedule and struggle with that emotionally.

So while the resentment did not happen during the moment, it may still be there later in the week, but will likely be held back with the OP's ongoing forgiveness and patience. 

Badsanta


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I think this is a very good point. What happens for some, kinda like the whole chicken or the egg, H needs sex to feel emotionally connected to W to have those deep talks, etc... W needs deep talks to emotionally connect with H for sex. You run into issues where one person gets their needs met and just leaves it at that without working towards meeting the other person's needs (sometimes for selfish reasons, sometimes by no means malicious at all).


It's because givers (who care about meeting their partner's needs) are attracted to takers (who care about getting their needs met). The ratio of givers to takers seems to be the same between genders.

So, as a rule one partner is getting their needs met and the other is building resentment.

The way out is not for the taker to spontaneously start giving (that would be nice, but it's never going to happen). It's for the giver make their needs known and provide the taker with the motivation to attend to them (this assumes that what the giver is giving that is valued by the taker).

My wife is the taker. It's not that she doesn't care about my needs, she just doesn't naturally notice them.

Also, since I'm so steady and capable, it's easy to think that I don't need anything, whereas it's pretty obvious to me when she needs something (and I always know what she needs and provide it). 

But, if I make my needs clear known, she'll do anything for me.

She may lose focus after a while and I need to remind her (which my emotional self feels I shouldn't have to do).

I could just sit back and expect her to do what I would do in a similar situation, but that's not going to happen.

So the giver can just sit back and hope that the taker does the right thing.

Or you can ask for what you need. If you don't get it, then at least you know where you stand.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> It's because givers (who care about meeting their partner's needs) are attracted to takers (who care about getting their needs met). The ratio of givers to takers seems to be the same between genders.
> 
> So, as a rule one partner is getting their needs met and the other is building resentment.
> 
> ...


Agreed with this, and similar to you, I would say I am a giver and my W a taker. 

The bolded is where I get hung up. Not b/c of ego or such, but at times it just becomes mentally draining having to constantly remind someone who should at some point "get it". I think that is why, at this moment, I am actually content just sitting back, let my brain shut off, and focus on other things. At some point the topic will come up again, but for now I am enjoying the quiet lol


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

alexm said:


> No, I do my fair share and more. I'm self-employed, and the wife is out the door before the kids and I are even up. I'm home when they get home. I have time to do a lot of the household stuff,* and make slightly more than she does, to boot.*
> 
> She does her share, too, of course. *I'd say it's 55/45 me, though.*
> 
> If you include breakfasts, school lunches and most dinners,* it's more me, but I don't really include those in the chore category.* People gotta eat, and she doesn't like to cook :|




She's getting a good deal.

And cooking definitely counts as "the chore category". Cooking (well) is a difficult skill to master.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> badsanta said:
> 
> 
> > @jld but his wife restricted intimacy to the exact same one moment a week, over the weekend.
> ...


From reading about this situation for a long time, it seems to me that the lack of sex isn't because Alex needs to meet her needs more often, but rather it's just how she wants to operate, not a result of what he does or doesn't do.

JLD sometimes I think you don't have a frame of reference for dysfunction. Some people really are dysfunctional and their behavior in certain areas of the relationship has nothing to do with the quality of relationship their partner provides.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
While all of us are equal under the law - we ain't all equal. 

Only thing I'm actually curious about is whether you are going to have me ROTFL by claiming J2 as your equal - after all the honestly scary - things you've said about her. 

And just so we are clear on this equal thing - the fact that J2 would jam you in a nursing home and just walk away - makes her not your equal. 





john117 said:


> It matters little how one gets on the pedestal. One shouldn't be put on one, period.
> 
> A marriage is a relationship of equals. There's too much at stake otherwise.


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> I would say we're way over that, TBH. The bulk of it is on weekends, yes, but we do also have time throughout the week.
> 
> Both of the kids are old enough to not only look after themselves, and they're also not always home, either.
> 
> ...


Good for you guys. Honestly, I'm stumped. If your wife is opposed to sex outside of a small once a week weekend window and you feel she may be doing it for control, why is she trying to control you? Does she feel powerless in the marriage? Is there some issue she might have?


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> Jessica, I continue to search, but I am not finding anything linking Gottman to a recommendation of 15 hours a week. I am only finding recs for 5 or 6 hours.
> 
> Please link if you find something. We want to give out accurate citations of his research, right?
> 
> ...


I just did a quick search and read this here: Balancing Togetherness and Individuality

"For most couples these days the challenge is finding ways to stay close enough in the face of work and other demands. Researchers like John Gottman tell us that successful couples spend a minimum of 12 to 15 hours of non-sleep, non-TV time together each week. Daily non-stress communication (even just 10 minutes) to keep in touch with each other’s lives and other daily bonding rituals also promotes your sense of togetherness."

Gottman has a lot of material dating back to the 90s. It's possible this is from one of his multiple books on building successful marriages.

As for Dr. Harley- his 15 hour recommendation that he concluded for a successful marriage during his research at UC Riverside is cited in His Needs, Her Needs, Lovebusters, and covered on his website. Here is a good explanation of how he conducts his research, his background in statistics and research and why the science of marriage has its limitations (control group ethics): http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8101_ambm.html


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm not convinced that "givers" are attracted to "takers". I'm a "giver" and would much prefer too be with another giver. Its just that having gotten into a relationship with a taker, my personality makes it nearly impossible to get out.

Sometimes I think "takers" convince themselves that their partners enjoy "giving" so that the are not being selfish.




Buddy400 said:


> It's because givers (who care about meeting their partner's needs) are attracted to takers (who care about getting their needs met). The ratio of givers to takers seems to be the same between genders.
> 
> So, as a rule one partner is getting their needs met and the other is building resentment.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
I read your initial post again. 

Many years ago you began to post and I said: Your main problem, is that she feels totally comfortable rejecting you at close to 100% frequency. Which is the same as saying: A2 has total control over frequency. 

I seem to recall you resisting acknowledgment of that as the CORE problem. You avoided and deflected and engaged in long side tracks. 

You only have two real moves. You can just tell her:
1. You don't like that she has this total control theme 
2. You are not ok with this total control thing (but this is only to be said if you are willing to end up ended over this - which you clearly aren't)

Since you aren't at (2), option (1) actually has to be short and clear or you are just going to annoy the hell out of her. 






alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.
> 
> Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed with this, and similar to you, I would say I am a giver and my W a taker.
> 
> The bolded is where I get hung up. Not b/c of ego or such, but at times it just becomes mentally draining having to constantly remind someone who should at some point "get it". I think that is why, at this moment, I am actually content just sitting back, let my brain shut off, and focus on other things. At some point the topic will come up again, but for now I am enjoying the quiet lol


I have to constantly fight with myself about this.

My instinctual response if my needs aren't noticed is to protect myself and withdraw.

But, I know where that leads, so I have to push myself to keep my needs out there.

In an ideal world, I wouldn't need to do this. But, if she is aware of my needs, she meets them (eagerly). So it's a reasonable price to pay.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> While all of us are equal under the law - we ain't all equal.
> 
> Only thing I'm actually curious about is whether you are going to have me ROTFL by claiming J2 as your equal - after all the honestly scary - things you've said about her.
> ...


Conceptually equal, my man. Not legally or technically equal.

I don't buy $1 worth of camera gear for every $1 she spends on art. I'd have a Hasselblad or Leica if that was the case 😀

Let's say you make a mistake and M2 does too another time. Your response and her response better be similar. If I dent her X3 I expect the same reaction if she dents my Mini.

Pedestal leads to unaccountability in my experience. 

Ah, no point considering her my equal. Not in a million years.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I'm not convinced that "givers" are attracted to "takers". I'm a "giver" and would much prefer too be with another giver. Its just that having gotten into a relationship with a taker, my personality makes it nearly impossible to get out.
> 
> Sometimes I think "takers" convince themselves that their partners enjoy "giving" so that the are not being selfish.


It is very important to me that I am needed and make my partner happy.

If I was paired with the female version of myself, nothing I did would make that much of a difference to their happiness and I wouldn't be fulfilled.

The big problem is how to avoid being taken advantage of.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't see that. If I was paired with another "giver" we would each put tons of effort into making the other happy. Seems like a win / win to me. 

"Giver" may mean something different to me. I very much enjoy making other happy - but that doesn't mean that I don't also want to be happy myself. 



Buddy400 said:


> It is very important to me that I am needed and make my partner happy.
> 
> If I was paired with the female version of myself, nothing I did would make that much of a difference to their happiness and I wouldn't be fulfilled.
> 
> The big problem is how to avoid being taken advantage of.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Re givers and takers: I think we're all both at certain times. I've been trying to figure out what hubby and I are in the bedroom and I can't really figure it out. I know he *thinks* he's a giver - he has to call it 'making love' not ****ing, he always wants me to O, he's always tender, that type of thing. But when I tell him I just want him to **** me once in a while he thinks I'm kidding. When I tell him I don't like the fact it takes him 5 minutes at the MOST to cum, he gets mad and thinks I'm berating him. If I try to explain that I'm bored with the same old same old SAME OLD year in and year out, he gets upset and just hears me criticizing him. So he's only a giver if it's completely on HIS terms without my input.

I used to be a giver in the bedroom but I've pretty much given up. He just doesn't have it in him to be wanton, or to appreciate me being wanton. To him, sex has to always be what he has decided is 'making love'.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
The car denting thing - agreed and that is how it works here. If you mess up or cause injury you apologize. Agreed to all that. 

Thing is - M2 doesn't expect or request the better seat the last lamb chop. She has a very low princess factor. 

Sometimes with a piece of food - the you take it - no you take it - rolls right into a little game we play called: splitsky 

One of us cuts it in half gives the remaining half - allowing the recipient to finish or repeat the process - leading to a rapid iteration to almost nothing. 

With the goal being to get the piece so small your partner actually eats it. 

Then the giver makes a piggy sound - makes a thing about the last piece always tasting the best. Just another silly game we play. 
---------

As to being in a 50-50 relationship. I would constantly be confused. I am not joking or trying to be difficult. Is the movie theater seat equal to the restaurant seat or the theater theater seat? 

I guess you could take turns on everything.

But I don't want to. 





john117 said:


> Conceptually equal, my man. Not legally or technically equal.
> 
> I don't buy $1 worth of camera gear for every $1 she spends on art. I'd have a Hasselblad or Leica if that was the case 😀
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm the giver outside the bedroom 

M2 is the giver inside the bedroom

And to be clear - the non giver isn't a 'taker' they are a beneficiary - and that is an important distinction 






uhtred said:


> I don't see that. If I was paired with another "giver" we would each put tons of effort into making the other happy. Seems like a win / win to me.
> 
> "Giver" may mean something different to me. I very much enjoy making other happy - but that doesn't mean that I don't also want to be happy myself.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Re givers and takers: I think we're all both at certain times. I've been trying to figure out what hubby and I are in the bedroom and I can't really figure it out. I know he *thinks* he's a giver - he has to call it 'making love' not ****ing, he always wants me to O, he's always tender, that type of thing. But when I tell him I just want him to **** me once in a while he thinks I'm kidding. When I tell him I don't like the fact it takes him 5 minutes at the MOST to cum, he gets mad and thinks I'm berating him. If I try to explain that I'm bored with the same old same old SAME OLD year in and year out, he gets upset and just hears me criticizing him. So he's only a giver if it's completely on HIS terms without my input.
> 
> I used to be a giver in the bedroom but I've pretty much given up. He just doesn't have it in him to be wanton, or to appreciate me being wanton. To him, sex has to always be what he has decided is 'making love'.


Being a giver doesn't mean one is necessarily capable of giving someone what they need.

I don't think he's a giver because he doesn't acknowledge what you want. I doesn't count when you give someone something that they don't want.

As to the "love making" versus "just ****ing **** me" view of things. I don't think he's capable of giving you what you want. 

My wife might want rough sex and I might want to make her happy but that doesn't mean that I'd be physically capable of doing it.

If it takes him "at most 5 minutes at MOST to cum", that's not necessarily anything that he can physically control. So he is probably incapable of "giving" you that so telling him that what he does not satisfy you in that area probably just serves to make him feel bad (not that there is anything wrong with what you need, he may just not be the man capable of fulfilling your needs).

I presume you've read the old @SimplyAmorous posts? She also wanted her husband to be more aggressive than he was capable of being. Maybe you can work your way through this. Maybe not.

That and the "Saturday morning only sex" you mentioned elsewhere don't give me a good feeling about your getting what you need in the bedroom.

This seems somewhat new from you. Has it always been lurking below the surface or is it something new?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

"beneficiary" vs "taker" is not a clear distinction to me. What do you see as the difference? 

The "receiving" to pick a 3rd word, may only apply in some circumstances, or may apply in all, depending on the person. 

If A and B are in a relationship and A asks for things adn B provides, but when B asks for things A doesn't provide, then I see A as a "taker". This may just be in one regime, or in all depending on the people. 




MEM2020 said:


> I'm the giver outside the bedroom
> 
> M2 is the giver inside the bedroom
> 
> And to be clear - the non giver isn't a 'taker' they are a beneficiary - and that is an important distinction


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Splitsky is one of the many silly couple games my late brother and his wife did... 

While it's nice to see such displays of consideration, you need to remember the cultural and socioeconomic factors behind the enabling or disuse of such.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If someone gives me something - because they want to - does that make me a taker?


We are in bed - it is 10:00 PM - M2 is tired. I make sure she has fresh glass of sparkling water. She doesn't ask - I just do. 

The word 'take' is a verb it implies an action. But there is no action here. 




uhtred said:


> "beneficiary" vs "taker" is not a clear distinction to me. What do you see as the difference?
> 
> The "receiving" to pick a 3rd word, may only apply in some circumstances, or may apply in all, depending on the person.
> 
> If A and B are in a relationship and A asks for things adn B provides, but when B asks for things A doesn't provide, then I see A as a "taker". This may just be in one regime, or in all depending on the people.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It depends on whether it and a bunch of other favors have become an expectation.

Even as an expectation its completely fine as long as overall things feel balanced.






MEM2020 said:


> If someone gives me something - because they want to - does that make me a taker?
> 
> 
> We are in bed - it is 10:00 PM - M2 is tired. I make sure she has fresh glass of sparkling water. She doesn't ask - I just do.
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Playfulness is such an incredible gift. 

I thank God every day I didn't marry my female analog. Instead I married someone with a double dose of Irish playfulness. 

My job is simple - I'm in charge of security - physical - financial - emotional. 

M2 runs 'Parks and recreation'. Parks - stands for all things aesthetic in our environment. 






john117 said:


> Splitsky is one of the many silly couple games my late brother and his wife did...
> 
> While it's nice to see such displays of consideration, you need to remember the cultural and socioeconomic factors behind the enabling or disuse of such.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I just did a quick search and read this here: Balancing Togetherness and Individuality
> 
> "For most couples these days the challenge is finding ways to stay close enough in the face of work and other demands. Researchers like John Gottman tell us that successful couples spend a minimum of 12 to 15 hours of non-sleep, non-TV time together each week. Daily non-stress communication (even just 10 minutes) to keep in touch with each other’s lives and other daily bonding rituals also promotes your sense of togetherness."
> 
> ...


I looked up both of your references. The page from Harley's site does not seem to explain any specific marital research you say he did at UC-Riverside, nor how he got the 15 hour number. From what he says, it sounds like he mostly relies on anecdotal feedback from people who read his book. 

I do not have his book. You say he explains more about the research he did and how he got the 15 hour number in there?

The other link you gave, the one advertising pre-marital seminars, does not provide any citation from Gottman. Saying that someone said something is different from his actually saying it, you know? And probably no one is bothering to fact check. The only numbers I have found accurately referencing Gottman, from his own organization, say 5 or 6 hours a week.

Sorry to be a stickler about this. But it is important to provide accurate references if we are going to attribute an idea to someone.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @jld but his wife restricted intimacy to the exact same one moment a week, over the weekend.
> 
> Why would she not be able to reciprocate on another day outside of this restriction?
> 
> While @alexm was not expecting sex, he was likely NOT exactly in the mood emotionally due to being so constrained with his wife always limiting sex to just on the weekends. But yet when SHE was finally in the mood (or just initiating over the weekend out of routine), he had to go along with it and make the most out of the situation because it is all he is going to get until next weekend.


Another thought: his patience and nurturing behavior towards her yesterday may lead them to more spontaneity. It could be the breakout.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Playfulness is such an incredible gift.
> 
> *I thank God every day I didn't marry my female analog. *Instead I married someone with a double dose of Irish playfulness.
> 
> ...


Yes.

Dug told me once that he did not want to marry someone like himself. He said it would be boring.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> It is a reminder that both partners needs matter.
> 
> I know you can't fathom not meeting Dug's needs, but I would argue that puts you in a very narrow minority.


I do not think that withdrawing from a partner is helpful, far, especially when it is used as a weapon. 

Like Sue Johnson, author of _Hold Me Tight_, advises, partners need to come closer to each other, to connect, not to actively move farther apart. Distance is not a long-term solution.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> > It is a reminder that both partners needs matter.
> ...


If I may chime in... Sometimes it is the only solution, when you are in a co-dependent dynamic with someone who is not giving a flying **** about you. Otherwise you are just enabling and reinforcing your partner's bad treatment of yourself. The solution isn't always to give more. Sometimes it is to withdraw and stop continuing to meet their needs.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> If I may chime in... Sometimes it is the only solution, when you are in a co-dependent dynamic with someone who is not giving a flying **** about you. Otherwise you are just enabling and reinforcing your partner's bad treatment of yourself. The solution isn't always to give more. Sometimes it is to withdraw and stop continuing to meet their needs.


I think repeated withdrawal can end up being a stepping stone to divorce.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing . . .

But first, please try connection. Humble, heartfelt, vulnerable connection.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Moving apart is not the solution. Moving apart is the tactic to motivate your selfish partner to come to the negotiating table. Once they are at the table and willing to compromise, then you can work on moving closer and holding each other. But first you have to get the "taker" who is pushing the "giver" away to open their arms for a hug.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Moving apart is not the solution. Moving apart is the tactic to motivate your selfish partner to come to the negotiating table. Once they are at the table and willing to compromise, then you can work on moving closer and holding each other. But first you have to get the "taker" who is pushing the "giver" away to open their arms for a hug.


I cannot imagine ever being impressed with this tactic.

It is not a show of strength.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Another thought: his patience and nurturing behavior towards her yesterday may lead them to more spontaneity. It could be the breakout.


Hopefully so! But it seems like he already does that...

If it is also an issue of her "being in control" then @alexm has to take this into consideration when asking her to try and help vary the schedule. Only she can decide when to be spontaneous, only she can determine an ideal time during the week, and only she will decide if she will be able to enjoy it. 

Outside of the bedroom I am generally the one in charge and in control. I often decide when to go, where to go, how we go, and set a budget. Inside the bedroom it is vice versa. If Alex tends to be the same way, then he may also want to work on helping his wife have more control outside the bedroom and perhaps he might find that the roles inside the bedroom begin to shift a little. 

This reminds me, I need to redo the caulking in our shower!!!!!! (I've been promising to do that for weeks now...)

Badsanta


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> I looked up both of your references. The page from Harley's site does not seem to explain any specific marital research you say he did at UC-Riverside, nor how he got the 15 hour number. From what he says, it sounds like he mostly relies on anecdotal feedback from people who read his book.
> 
> I do not have his book. You say he explains more about the research he did and how he got the 15 hour number in there?
> 
> ...


Dr. Harley cited his experience in statistics and research at the university level in the article I sent and his work is cited in the books listed, as well as his explanation of scientific ethical limitations in study data (unethical to have a control group of married couples who don't spend that time together). His work documenting the importance of 15 hours a week is in the work cited.

Yes, your point on Gottman is valid, as there are no peer-reviewed studies showing that 15 hours is important for the success of marriage, because again- ethical considerations involved with a control group. However, as an expert who has conducted his own research and observational studies, his work (and Harley's) are valid sources to draw from. Gottman has written extensively on marital success (as has Harley) and his work (like Harley's) is presented in several books, which are considered quality sources to draw from in journalism. 

The article you linked to stating that Gottman found 6 hours a week extra time devoted to the relationship to be important is a great link, though it does not include a peer-reviewed study. It also does not include time for sex and activities/hobbies together other than 1 date night. If you continue to study Gottman's work, he does say that activities together and sex are important in marriage, so those 6 hours are likely not his sole recommendation for time married couples should spend together.

In any case, the OP says they get more than 15 hours a week so this is not their issue. Sorry to thread-jack!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_Sorry, not persuaded by the whole "LD is a control technique" idea . . ._


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> I do not think that withdrawing from a partner is helpful, far, especially when it is used as a weapon.
> 
> Like Sue Johnson, author of _Hold Me Tight_, advises, partners need to come closer to each other, to connect, not to actively move farther apart. Distance is not a long-term solution.


Gottman also talks about this as one of the predictors of divorce. He calls it stonewalling.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

badsanta said:


> @jld but his wife restricted intimacy to the exact same one moment a week, over the weekend.
> 
> Why would she not be able to reciprocate on another day outside of this restriction?
> 
> While @alexm was not expecting sex, he was likely NOT exactly in the mood emotionally due to being so constrained with his wife always limiting sex to just on the weekends. But yet when SHE was finally in the mood (or just initiating over the weekend out of routine), he had to go along with it and make the most out of the situation because it is all he is going to get until next weekend.


To be fair, I didn't have any reservations about Sunday morning. Mainly because I didn't have the expectation of anything happening.

On the odd occasions where the usual Saturday night didn't work out for some reason, I HAVE kind of expected some sort of make-up the next day. I'd say those times had about a 50/50 success rate, with me having to do the heavy lifting to get there in the first place, and with the sex not being as good as it typically is. I wouldn't say 'duty sex', but pretty darn close.

In this case, I "rejected" her Saturday night (I say that in quotation marks because I didn't really reject her, I just didn't play the game and do what she was likely expecting me to do).

I again rejected without rejecting her Sunday morning, and it clearly motivated her enough to say something. She could have taken the bull by the horns, so to speak, and just physically initiated, but I know she's simply not capable of that. Once we got going, she DID take the bull by the horns (figuratively and literally!).

FWIW, SHE got ME in the mood, which is a rarity. The thought of sex just wasn't on my mind. I very briefly considered not doing it, but quickly recognized that would have been harmful and stupid. After all, it's the Saturday night schedule I'm sick and tired of, and this was not Saturday night.

I think I may be on to something here, and it's not rocket science, nor is this new information. Some of you peeps having been telling me this for years now... sigh. Simply changing the dynamic and not being so non-plussed about it all is probably the way to go. The less of a deal I make of it, the less she will, too, and the less pressure she may have as a result. My ultimate goal is for our sex life to be free and easy, regardless of whether it's once a week, every day, or whatever. It's not frequency that bothers me (though it DOES, of course), it's simply the dynamics of it all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Dr. Harley cited his experience in statistics and research at the university level in the article I sent and his work is cited in the books listed, as well as his explanation of scientific ethical limitations in study data (unethical to have a control group of married couples who don't spend that time together). His work documenting the importance of 15 hours a week is in the work cited.


I read the page. It is vague, at best. No explanation of how Harley arrived at 15 hours.



> Yes, your point on Gottman is valid, as there are no peer-reviewed studies showing that 15 hours is important for the success of marriage, because again- ethical considerations involved with a control group. However, as an expert who has conducted his own research and observational studies, his work (and Harley's) are valid sources to draw from. Gottman has written extensively on marital success (as has Harley) and his work (like Harley's) is presented in several books, which are considered quality sources to draw from in journalism.


Again, the only accurate reference to Gottman is 5 or 6 hours. 

And I have seen nothing indicating Harley is anywhere near Gottman in academic reputation.



> The article you linked to stating that Gottman found 6 hours a week extra time devoted to the relationship to be important is a great link, though it does not include a peer-reviewed study. It also does not include time for sex and activities/hobbies together other than 1 date night. If you continue to study Gottman's work, he does say that activities together and sex are important in marriage, so those 6 hours are likely not his sole recommendation for time married couples should spend together.


It is from Gottman's own professional site, Jessica. It clearly has his backing.



> In any case, the OP says they get more than 15 hours a week so this is not their issue. Sorry to thread-jack!


Yes, this discussion of accurately quoting sources probably needed its own thread. 

Back to you, Alex.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Gottman also talks about this as one of the predictors of divorce. He calls it stonewalling.


Yes. I linked an article talking about this to MEM earlier.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

notmyrealname4 said:


> She's getting a good deal.
> 
> And cooking definitely counts as "the chore category". Cooking (well) is a difficult skill to master.


She is, and she does know it. I don't have to remind her of this (too too often, anyway! :wink2: )

It's really just that she doesn't repay me in the way that I desire, despite being told so. I don't mean 'repay' like she owes me anything, I just mean in the marital needs idea of things. It's generally what we married folk are supposed to do - meet my needs, I'll meet yours. Instead, she repeatedly 'repays' me in the way that SHE would want to be repaid. We go in circles about this all the time. It's not that I don't appreciate her appreciation for me, it's just not in the manner that I respond to - it's hers. It'd be like if she did something super thoughtful and nice for me, and my way of saying thanks and showing her my appreciation was to 'treat' her to some amazing oral sex.

Never said I could cook well, lol!


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Another thought: his patience and nurturing behavior towards her yesterday may lead them to more spontaneity. It could be the breakout.


Not gonna happen. The next month or two doesn't count, after that it's back to the box she has him in.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I agree with this to a point. A couple has to be willing to come together. 

However, Alex has made it clear she is not willing to come together with him to solve the problem. In fact, it is just the opposite. She is not willing to even begin the discussion about how he might not be satisfied with their sex life. Therefore, the premise of you saying why withdrawal is not helpful is simply not applicable. 

When a partner is not willing to come together to solve the problem, then mirroring is the best option, IMO.

Additionally, your choice of the term "weapon" in regards to withdrawal is misleading at best and manipulative at worst. It assigns nefarious intent to why I do what I do, which is essentially mirroring what F2 does. An even more cynical view of the term "weaponizing" would be that it actually reeks of _reverse entitlement_. 

FTR, it has nothing to do with inflicting harm on someone, even if that is an unintended consequence. The intended consequence is to stop doing things that make me feel bad about myself, such as continuing to blindly meet someone's needs who is unwilling to reciprocate. 

_"Let me summarize what I was saying about selfless charity. I said there were two types of selfishness; maybe I should have said three. First, when I do something, or rather, when I give myself the pleasure of pleasing myself; second, when I give myself the pleasure of pleasing others. Don't take pride in that. Don't think you're a great person. You're a very ordinary person, but you've got refined tastes. 

Your taste is good, not the quality of your spirituality. When you were a child, you liked Coca-Cola; now you've grown older and you appreciate chilled beer on a hot day. You've got better tastes now. 
When you were a child, you loved chocolates; now you're older, you enjoy a symphony, you enjoy a poem. You've got better tastes. But you're getting your pleasure all the same, except now it's in the 
pleasure of pleasing others. 

Then you've got the third type, which is the worst when you do something good so that you won't get a bad feeling. It doesn't give you a good feeling to do it; it gives you a bad feeling to do it. You hate it. You're making loving sacrifices but you're grumbling. Ha! How little you know of yourself if you think you don't do things this way. 

If I had a dollar for every time I did things that gave me a bad feeling, I'd be a millionaire by now. You know how it goes. "Could I meet you tonight. Father"? "Yes, come on in!" I don't want to meet him and I hate meeting him. I want to watch that TV show tonight, but how do I say no to him? I don't have the guts to say no. "Come on in", and I 'm thinking, "Oh God, I 've got to put up with this pain". 

It doesn't give me a good feeling to meet with him and it doesn't give me a good feeling to say no to him, so I choose the lesser of the two evils and I say, "O.K., come on in". I'm going to be happy when this thing is over and I 'II be able to take my smile off, but I start the session with him "How are you"? "Wonderful", he says, and he goes on and on about how he loves that workshop, and I'm thinking, "Oh God, when is he going to come to the point"? 

Finally he comes to the point, and I metaphorically slam him against the wall and say, "Well, any fool could solve that kind of problem", and I send him out. "Whew! Got rid of him", I say. And the next morning at breakfast (because I'm feeling I was so rude) I go up to him and say, "How's life"? And lie answers, "Pretty good". And he adds, "You know, what you said to me last night was a real help. Can I meet you today, after lunch"? Oh God! 

That's the worst kind of charity, when you're doing something so you won't get a bad feeling. You don't have the guts to say you want to be left alone. You want people to think you're a good priest!

-Anthony De Mello, Awareness_

That last one is what Conrad used to refer to as number 3's. Number 3's are relationship killers because they both build resentment and erode self respect. I do not want my wife to do something for me that causes her to feel bad. Conversely, I do not want to do things for her that cause me to feel bad, either. It is the classic trap that "nice guys" fall into. It really is that simple.



jld said:


> I do not think that withdrawing from a partner is helpful, far, especially when it is used as a weapon.
> 
> Like Sue Johnson, author of _Hold Me Tight_, advises, partners need to come closer to each other, to connect, not to actively move farther apart. Distance is not a long-term solution.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is in fact a show of strength. For a giver, one of the hardest things to do is to tell someone "no".



jld said:


> I cannot imagine ever being impressed with this tactic.
> 
> It is not a show of strength.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You have it backwards.

LD is _not_ a control technique. Control is exerted to maintain what is comfortable for the LD, eg. gatekeeping.



jld said:


> _Sorry, not persuaded by the whole "LD is a control technique" idea . . ._


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It absolutely could be.

However, a more interesting question would be:

If I am mirroring my partners behavior because she refuses to talk about it (hypothetically), who is stonewalling whom?



Jessica38 said:


> Gottman also talks about this as one of the predictors of divorce. He calls it stonewalling.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Weapons are indeed not necessarily carried with the intent to harm another person, far. The people carrying them may feel they are just trying to protect themselves.

But there can be unintended consequences. 

Other people in their vicinity may perceive that weapon and its purpose very differently, especially if they consider themselves to be weaponless.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> You have it backwards.
> 
> LD is _not_ a control technique. Control is exerted to maintain what is comfortable for the LD, eg. gatekeeping.


In the eyes of the HD.

To the LD, it may seem very different.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> It is in fact a show of strength. For a giver, one of the hardest things to do is to tell someone "no".


But your aim is to take, correct? And you are willing to engage in manipulative tactics to get there.

I am sorry, far. That is how I see it. And manipulation is not strength to me.

Connection--heartfelt, empathetic, vulnerable connection--is.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This is true.

However, ones agency is their own responsibility. 



jld said:


> Weapons are indeed not necessarily carried with the intent to harm another person, far. The people carrying them may feel they are just trying to protect themselves.
> 
> But there can be unintended consequences.
> 
> Other people in their vicinity may perceive that weapon and its purpose very differently, especially if they consider themselves to be weaponless.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> But your aim is to take, correct? And you are willing to engage in manipulative tactics to get there.


This statement...this one right here...is EXACTLY what I meant by _reverse entitlement_. I am choosing to give less. You equate that to me taking more. Ergo, F2 is entitled to what I am giving.



jld said:


> I am sorry, far. That is how I see it. And manipulation is not strength to me.
> 
> Connection--heartfelt, empathetic, vulnerable connection--is.


You see manipulation because you see what I give as an entitlement.

And for the second time, there is no willingness on the part of Mrs. Alex to have the heartfelt, empathetic, vulnerable connection. She has shown this time and again for the better part of what...three years? 

So, since that is not a possibility, I would be curious as to what you would suggest next rather than mischaracterizing my solution.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> I read the page. It is vague, at best. No explanation of how Harley arrived at 15 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> She is, and she does know it. I don't have to remind her of this (too too often, anyway! :wink2: )
> 
> It's really just that she doesn't repay me in the way that I desire, despite being told so. I don't mean 'repay' like she owes me anything, I just mean in the marital needs idea of things. It's generally what we married folk are supposed to do - meet my needs, I'll meet yours. Instead, she repeatedly 'repays' me in the way that SHE would want to be repaid. We go in circles about this all the time. It's not that I don't appreciate her appreciation for me, it's just not in the manner that I respond to - it's hers. It'd be like if she did something super thoughtful and nice for me, and my way of saying thanks and showing her my appreciation was to 'treat' her to some amazing oral sex.
> 
> Never said I could cook well, lol!


What if you bring it up often, keeping it a priority in your marriage? Just keep the dialogue open and continue making it her issue too. 

I really think in marriage, we need reminders that what may bring us great happiness isn't always the same for our partner. I think like anything else in marriage that is important to you but your spouse doesn't agree on, you keep raising the issue in a positive way until you find a solution.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> I cannot imagine ever being impressed with this tactic.
> 
> It is not a show of strength.


I know you wouldn't. But some of us are never going to have the strength that you find attractive.

Any man you are married to is never going to need to use this tactic. But there are lot of men you would never marry. Some of those men do need it. Telling them "it would be better if you were strong and dominant enough not to need this" is not universally helpful. That is like saying "it would be helpful if you were six inches taller and a billionaire". True but irrelevant.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> This statement...this one right here...is EXACTLY what I meant by _reverse entitlement_. I am choosing to give less. You equate that to me taking more. Ergo, F2 is entitled to what I am giving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. That is where I find the irony. It has been stated that in a relationship you are not entitled to sex. However, it then seems to be implied that your SO is entitled to all the other aspects of the relationship :scratchhead: So for Alex, he has no right to expect sex from his W, that is something she should just want to willingly give. However, she has every right to expect all the other nuances of a relationship that Alex provides. Talk about ass backwards and preaching a double standard lol. 

On the topic of control, in this case, whether malicious or not, the LD is exerting control. You can use fancy words to try and mask it, like being "vulnerable", being "empathetic", etc... but yeah, just smoke and mirrors for wanting to control the situation. If someone views sex as a big component in their relationship needed to build that emotional bond/connection, of course if you remove sex from the equation you simply cannot expect that person to respond the same way. This is not malicious, this is not control (up to a certain point of course).

I think the one thing for Alex to watch, maybe based on this weekend and his approach, that may have gotten his W's attention. The question, will it be short term? Once the novelty wears off to her, will it just go back to business as usual?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> I think I may be on to something here, and it's not rocket science, nor is this new information. Some of you peeps having been telling me this for years now... sigh. Simply changing the dynamic and not being so non-plussed about it all is probably the way to go. The less of a deal I make of it, the less she will, too, and the less pressure she may have as a result. My ultimate goal is for our sex life to be free and easy, regardless of whether it's once a week, every day, or whatever. It's not frequency that bothers me (though it DOES, of course), it's simply the dynamics of it all.


I don't want to be a buzz-kill, but put me down as predicting that you'll have increasingly less frequent sex with her for the foreseeable future.

She had to come up with the Saturday night plan in order for her to remember to have sex once a week. 

But, you will be free of the "only Saturday night sex" that has been making you uneasy, so that's something.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Alex - I'm reading along on this thread because as I mentioned before, I suspect I'm pretty similar to your wife's position (although my H and I do not have a verbally scheduled sex date that we keep). 

Have you ever actually talked to her about any of this? I'm talking about a lay-all-the-cards-on-the-table talk. Maybe you have and it got you nowhere. I'm just curious to know what she has to say about all of this. And curious to know if she REALLY knows how you feel. 

As the LD, I cannot actually EMPATHIZE with my husband (I do not get the same things out of sex that he does, and I do not have the same level of baseline desire that he does.) I can only guess what he's thinking or feeling at any given time. That is really hard. Unless he speaks to me about it, I'm kind of in the dark, because I really don't have that same need or desire that he does so I cannot imagine how he feels. 

A really big obstacle in my marriage has been getting my H to actually talk in plain words about what he wants, or even more importantly, what he DOESN'T want. I do not consider myself to be an evil witch out to make him miserable and overall I'd say we have a decent marriage (and honestly, it sounds like you and your wife do too). But there have been many times where he just seems to expect me to know what he wants or what he's thinking without ever telling me. You often hear people say women do this - but men do it too, and I primarily find out once he's reached the end of his rope and proceeds to get angry at me. I'm not stupid...(I think?)... but I sure feel that way sometimes when we get to the point where he's losing it, and I am getting hit by a train that I didn't see coming! 

My point: If my H and I had made an agreement to sex on a certain frequency, and for weeks upon weeks it appeared to be working for him and he was happy, I would keep doing it expecting the same results *unless he told me he wanted something different*. So, have you told her?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> _Sorry, not persuaded by the whole "LD is a control technique" idea . . ._


Decision Analysis Guy asks...

Ask yourself why would​ you risk bringing​ great harm to your relationship?

This is basic human behavior. Risk / reward. If not control then what?

If destroying the relationship is worth it then that's control right there. Fear of increased frequency. Fear of new standards. So control to the rescue.

As I've said many times, those in normal relationships​ simply can't comprehend such nuances.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> You have it backwards.
> 
> LD is _not_ a control technique. Control is exerted to maintain what is comfortable for the LD, eg. gatekeeping.


LD is about control. It is not control in itself.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> Decision Analysis Guy asks...
> 
> Ask yourself why would​ you risk bringing​ great harm to your relationship?
> 
> ...


I always argue it's more to do with sheer ignorance on the part of the LD rather than malice. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> My point: If my H and I had made an agreement to sex on a certain frequency, and for weeks upon weeks it appeared to be working for him and he was happy, I would keep doing it expecting the same results *unless he told me he wanted something different*. So, have you told her?


Are you aware of the rationalization hamster?

It is a common laboratory animal that has been bred to rationalize ANY decision by spinning in it's hamster wheel while thinking of rationalizations.

You can talk all you want. The more you talk the faster the hamster has to work, resulting in impossible to defend reasoning.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Two other points to make. 

- These issues are not gender specific. @Hope1964 shows this, as well as other female posters on TAM. So, IMO, going with the whole "*He* has to lead", "*He* has to show strength" really just shows a lack of understanding and disregard for those impacted. To me, the solution is not gender specific either (i.e. if you are a male do this, if you are a female do that...).

- Until you have been in a situation like this, it is difficult to relate to (I think most people posting here have had some experience with on one side or the other, and some can undoubtedly relate all too well). Going with the "nurture her and surely the sex will follow" once again shows a complete lack of understanding about the issues being dealt with (and tbh doesn't really speak highly of women).

To clarify, I am in no way saying people shouldn't voice their opinions. That is the great thing about TAM, getting different POVs.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I always argue it's more to do with sheer ignorance on the part of the LD rather than malice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Au contraire...

Four years ago I theorized that the LD spectrum goes from all ignorance (rare) to all intent (rare). Most LD's are somewhere between the two. The closer one is to ignorance the easier it is to fix via MMSLP, NMMNG, 5LL, and assorted pop psychology books. Once you pass 50/50 it's time for professional intervention. Once you move closer to intentional behavior it's curtains.

Another of my half finished drafts to be submitted one day to the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> Au contraire...
> 
> Four years ago I theorized that the LD spectrum goes from all ignorance (rare) to all intent (rare). Most LD's are somewhere between the two. The closer one is to ignorance the easier it is to fix via MMSLP, NMMNG, 5LL, and assorted pop psychology books. Once you pass 50/50 it's time for professional intervention. Once you move closer to intentional behavior it's curtains.
> 
> Another of my half finished drafts to be submitted one day to the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality


This is actually believable. My issue is when I see people painting the spouse as "all good" or "all bad". I don't think anyone is all good or all bad 100% of the time. 

I would argue from what I've read here that Alex's wife falls on the "ignorant" side of the spectrum rather than the "ill intent" side, and that is why I gave the advice that I did. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Au contraire...
> 
> Four years ago I theorized that the LD spectrum goes from all ignorance (rare) to all intent (rare). Most LD's are somewhere between the two. The closer one is to ignorance the easier it is to fix via MMSLP, NMMNG, 5LL, and assorted pop psychology books. Once you pass 50/50 it's time for professional intervention. Once you move closer to intentional behavior it's curtains.
> 
> Another of my half finished drafts to be submitted one day to the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality


LOL. Those are some pretty limited options. 

The effect might feel like control, but it's totally unfair, IMHO, to assume that this is the intent behind the actions My husband is LD for all sorts of reasons, medical, social, psychological. It may feel like control to me, but the real truth of the matter is that he's only capable of what he's capable of.

And for me to force some sort of point otherwise is no more than me exerting my will to control him.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most great theories are simple in nature...

If someone has ED for example and doesn't know it - TV commercials​ no withstanding - that's ignorance. If they know they have ED and don't want to be treated, is that not actively sabotage?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I'm not stupid...(I think?)... but I sure feel that way sometimes when we get to the point where he's losing it, and I am getting hit by a train that I didn't see coming!
> 
> My point: If my H and I had made an agreement to sex on a certain frequency, and for weeks upon weeks it appeared to be working for him and he was happy, I would keep doing it expecting the same results *unless he told me he wanted something different*. So, have you told her?


That's just the thing. You don't understand how others feel about sex. But, if they told you, you'd do your best to give them what they want (to the degree that you were capable and you felt they were deserving of your best efforts).

That's the thing with Alex and Ultred's wives. Any reasonable person would think that their wive's know what they need/want.

There's still a chance they don't really (I know this from personal experience).

People like Alex, Ultred, Ellis & me think it should be obvious. After all, *we* would have gotten it by now.

So that's the case for making 100% sure that they understand. But, it can't just be talk. There have to be actions as well.

And no whining!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Two other points to make.
> 
> - These issues are not gender specific. @Hope1964 shows this, as well as other female posters on TAM. So, IMO, going with the whole "*He* has to lead", "*He* has to show strength" really just shows a lack of understanding and disregard for those impacted. To me, the solution is not gender specific either (i.e. if you are a male do this, if you are a female do that...).
> 
> ...


Having problems with your spouse certainly isn't gender specific.

But some things can be more gender specific than others and I think applying the "not gender specific" mantra to everything can make issue resolution more difficult than it needs to be.

Sure some women are taller and stronger than some men; but that doesn't mean that looking for women offensive tackles isn't a waste of time and effort. 

Why Gender-Neutral Advice Isn't Always Useful | The Huffington Post


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> This is actually believable. My issue is when I see people painting the spouse as "all good" or "all bad". I don't think anyone is all good or all bad 100% of the time.
> 
> I would argue from what I've read here that Alex's wife falls on the "ignorant" side of the spectrum rather than the "ill intent" side, and that is why I gave the advice that I did.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Never attribute to evil that which can be explained by ignorance (or something like that).


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> And for me to force some sort of point otherwise is no more than me exerting my will to control him.


There are some things that it is not in my wife's nature to do.

Thankfully, neither of us accept that a reason that she shouldn't try to do anything about them.

As a result, we're both a lot happier than we might otherwise be.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Having problems with your spouse certainly isn't gender specific.
> 
> But some things can be more gender specific than others and I think applying the "not gender specific" mantra to everything can make issue resolution more difficult than it needs to be.
> 
> ...


Agreed that gender neutral advice isn't always the best. I was looking at it more in regards to some of the advice here, in particular "nurture her and surely sex will follow" which a) is clearly gender specific, b) completely ignores things some of the posters here have said and c) ignores a variety of reasons why she may not want or have an interest in sex with her SO.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> So that's the case for making 100% sure that they understand. But, it can't just be talk. There have to be actions as well.


This is another area where I have gotten hung up on (not sure if others can relate). Aside from the fact that for me actions speak louder then words, but a good example (and maybe this is how an LD person may rationalize). At times my W will tell me she wants me, etc... during the day when it is not possible for anything to happen. Typically, by the time we would get any alone time (at night after the kids are asleep) the moment has long passed for her. I do believe in her mind she "initiated" earlier in the day, so check one off her to do list. For me, after it happening quite a few times, the words just become meaningless. I know now that when she brings it up in the day time, I will have plenty of time to catch up on tv shows / movies at night


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> That's just the thing. You don't understand how others feel about sex. But, if they told you, you'd do your best to give them what they want (to the degree that you were capable and you felt they were deserving of your best efforts).
> 
> That's the thing with Alex and Ultred's wives. Any reasonable person would think that their wive's know what they need/want.
> 
> ...


I guess "tell" is a loaded word. 

What I would want from my husband is honesty. I would want for him to also recieve honest feedback from me. In my particular situation, my husband is afraid to hurt my feelings and thus keeps a lot of his complaints to himself. My perception is that he is afraid to make me feel any kind of negative emotion...sadness, anger, disappointment, etc. So if he has a critique, or heck if I am really damn annoying, he won't tell me. I'm supposed to just "know". 

I would not respond to threats. At least not if there was no honest conversation first. My H tends to wait until things build to the point of boiling over with resentment before he'll even give me a clue that anything was wrong. And then it's hard to navigate a solution when the whole issue is clouded in resentment. This is why I said "I cannot empathize with him". Empathy to me goes beyond logically understanding the other persons viewpoint, it would be a deeper understanding achieved if you have actually experienced that exact circumstance yourself. I can empathize with him on pain, anger, sadness and so many other things...but not this. I do not know what it's like to be HD and I do not know (apart from reading this site) what goes through his mind when he doesn't get as much sex as he wants. That's why I need honest communication. I want to understand. I want to relate to him. I want the marriage to succeed. I need him to explain it to me, and be patient with me while I make sure that I understand. 

Here's where I struggle as the LD spouse: Sex is supposed to be organic and my H would want it to happen naturally (there can be no sense of duty attached to it). I want to cater to his needs, but I cannot force myself to have this organic desire that I just don't have. He takes that personally. I think a lot of HD might also take it personally. When you attach a schedule or worse, a threat to it, it seems to defeat the purpose of trying to create this atmosphere of passion and organic desire. My H would not want me if he thought I was only there because he held a gun to my head. I think that is what kind of keeps my marriage at a standstill. We've played out the options in our heads and realized none of them have great outcomes, so we just shrug and stay with the status quo. 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Far,
This analysis is exceptional. 

It is the entire basis for behavioral feedback in our marriage. When ill treated I am not mean, or loud or aggressive. I am just - less loving. That's it. Full stop. 

Of course M2 is distressed by that - anyone would be. I don't start there - but - when M2 gets into mischief and then doubles down - this is my 'go to move'. 

I'm not obligated to be an angel while she's being a devil. 






farsidejunky said:


> This statement...this one right here...is EXACTLY what I meant by _reverse entitlement_. I am choosing to give less. You equate that to me taking more. Ergo, F2 is entitled to what I am giving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> This statement...this one right here...is EXACTLY what I meant by _reverse entitlement_. I am choosing to give less. You equate that to me taking more. Ergo, F2 is entitled to what I am giving.


Your giving less is not taking more (though I do believe it is likely taking from yourself, as in depriving yourself of a more stable, enriching marriage through deepening the emotional connection). 

And neither of you is entitled to anything emotional from the other. Human marital relationships are voluntary, after all. (Never heard of a judge ordering a couple to have sex with each other, for example, nor enforcing it.)



> You see manipulation because you see what I give as an entitlement.


No, neither of you is entitled to emotional anything from the other, as explained above. Really, anything not court ordered (and enforced) is pretty much voluntary.



> And for the second time, there is no willingness on the part of Mrs. Alex to have the heartfelt, empathetic, vulnerable connection. She has shown this time and again for the better part of what...three years?
> 
> So, since that is not a possibility, I would be curious as to what you would suggest next rather than mischaracterizing my solution.


I think Alex made a good start yesterday by meeting her need for non-sexual intimacy, while neither expecting nor taking offense at the idea of not getting sexual intimacy in return. I suspect that Mrs. Alex sensed his lack of sense of entitlement, and was inspired to more than give back to him for his willingly giving to her.

As to your "solution" . . . 

Far, I think you are getting caught up in "right-fighting," or "rights-fighting." I do not think this is going to lead to long term marital satisfaction.

It is like you are on a marital ship that has sprung a leak, and you are insisting on only bailing out the ship what you perceive to be your "share" of the time. 

It doesn't work that way, far. Not for mature people. Mature people simply do what needs to be done, according to their ability to do it. 

If one person is capable of plugging the hole and scooping up all the water and throwing it overboard, to help the ship regain balance, that is what he or she does. They don't worry about "fairness" and "equality." They worry about getting the ship up and running again. They know that is what is ultimately going to help everyone--themselves included.

Please consider that by engaging in this withdrawal technique, you may risk jeopardizing the long term emotional connection that you and your wife need to maintain a stable and satisfying marriage. 

I understand you may feel powerless at times with your wife's lack of inspiration towards meeting your sexual desires. It is understandable that you would want to get even. 

Understandable, but not very mature. And in the long term, likely counterproductive.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Jld, you may want to read
https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/constructive-abandonment/

😀


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't see a judge ordering sexual relations anywhere in there, john. Nor his or her standing over anyone (with a police officer nearby, ready to arrest) insisting it happen. 

Marital relations are ultimately voluntary.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I do not want my wife to do something for me that causes her to feel bad. Conversely, I do not want to do things for her that cause me to feel bad, either. It is the classic trap that "nice guys" fall into. It really is that simple.


So... what if you take that feeling bad out of the equation and set a boundary that foregoes a doormat status?

One can be a nice guy and not be a doormat... where does that place one?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> It's really just that she doesn't repay me in the way that I desire, despite being told so. I don't mean 'repay' like she owes me anything, I just mean in the marital needs idea of things. It's generally what we married folk are supposed to do - meet my needs, I'll meet yours. Instead, she repeatedly 'repays' me in the way that SHE would want to be repaid. We go in circles about this all the time. It's not that I don't appreciate her appreciation for me, it's just not in the manner that I respond to - it's hers. It'd be like if she did something super thoughtful and nice for me, and my way of saying thanks and showing her my appreciation was to 'treat' her to some amazing oral sex.


You know... you and I are much in the same pattern with sexual frequency.

While opinions forge forward, what matters most is effort... best it can be delivered from one side and acceptance from the other.

I cannot tell you what you should or should not appreciate, that would be misplaced on my part. But I can tell you that the way you place this is far different than she sees it and has for many things.

You know she sees your love different, you know you have a much more romantic view, you believe she doesn't see marrying her first love as you do, you fear she used up her passion...

Yet you know she loves you, enjoys you, is committed to you.

What you are attempting to focus on thinking that you are missing out... is something you're missing out on.

Once you get past this, and you will, it will be a lot easier to focus on your blessings.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

At risk of being a buzz kill......

Having sex - 'when you don't want to' is - let's freeze the frame right there. And I mean - right there. 

I love this phrase because it - is common and yet subject to a frighteningly wide interpretation: When you don't want to

At one end of the spectrum it simply means a lack of desire to do - whatever. 

At the other end it means - you actively prefer to NOT do the activity in question. 

If this is simply a matter of responsive desire - you have a very real chance at making it all work well. 

If however, this is sexual aversion, whole different story. 

A low key conversation about responsive desire - that includes the theme of reciprocity - can be a very positive first step. 

Let's fool around for a while and see if nature takes its course. If it does - great. If not - we can stop. 

For that to work a few things must be true:
- Trust (that if it is a bust you won't just stop - but you will shrug it off)
- Good will - this is just a generalized marital vibe - that comes from a high level of synchronization/collaboration 

If your partner perceives sex as something you do WITH them, as opposed to TO them, this isn't stressful. Reason is simple. If the former - you won't WANT to proceed - if it isn't really happening for them. A good partner won't just know that (in their head) they will believe it (in their heart). 

Aversion is a totally different and largely unsolvable issue. Doesn't matter WHY someone feels that way - just that they do. 






Buddy400 said:


> That's just the thing. You don't understand how others feel about sex. But, if they told you, you'd do your best to give them what they want (to the degree that you were capable and you felt they were deserving of your best efforts).
> 
> That's the thing with Alex and Ultred's wives. Any reasonable person would think that their wive's know what they need/want.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't see a judge ordering sexual relations anywhere in there, john. Nor his or her standing over anyone (with a police officer nearby, ready to arrest) insisting it happen.
> 
> Marital relations are ultimately voluntary.


Sigh.

The fact it's a prime cause for divorce should tell you how the courts see it.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> A good partner won't just know that (in their head) they will believe it (in their heart).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> So... what if you take that feeling bad out of the equation and set a boundary that foregoes a doormat status?
> 
> One can be a nice guy and not be a doormat... where does that place one?


Of course one can be a nice guy without being a "nice guy". What I am doing is asserting a boundary. 

When I am asked (or as it would be, frequently expected) to do loving acts for her while she gives excuses as she foregoes loving acts in return, it trips a boundary, and I stop giving as much.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> As to your "solution" . . .
> 
> Far, I think you are getting caught up in "right-fighting," or "rights-fighting." I do not think this is going to lead to long term marital satisfaction.
> 
> ...


The point you are missing is that sometimes one gets so tired of plugging holes and bailing water(while the other is distracted with something far less important) that they are willing to allow the ship to take on water, to the point that it very may well sink. I am willing to lose the ship if her other priorities are so important as to ignore the water pouring in, as she expects me to continue to pitch water. 



jld said:


> Please consider that by engaging in this withdrawal technique, you may risk jeopardizing the long term emotional connection that you and your wife need to maintain a stable and satisfying marriage.
> 
> I understand you may feel powerless at times with your wife's lack of inspiration towards meeting your sexual desires. It is understandable that you would want to get even.
> 
> Understandable, but not very mature. And in the long term, likely counterproductive.


This "getting even" thing is another attempt at mischaracterization. I will not continue to do for one who is capable but chooses not to because it causes me to not only resent her, but also to get mad at myself. I get tired of feeling that way. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see Alex's situation much the same, although in fairness it could be projection. Their marriage seems mostly good with a very narrow comfort zone from her in the sex department.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kag123 said:


> Alex - I'm reading along on this thread because as I mentioned before, I suspect I'm pretty similar to your wife's position (although my H and I do not have a verbally scheduled sex date that we keep).
> 
> Have you ever actually talked to her about any of this? I'm talking about a lay-all-the-cards-on-the-table talk. Maybe you have and it got you nowhere. I'm just curious to know what she has to say about all of this. And curious to know if she REALLY knows how you feel.
> 
> ...


Yes, we've talked, and she knows my stance, and doesn't disagree with it, either.

For my wife, I believe it is two-fold: There is a certain element of LD to her, for sure, but I largely believe it to be manufactured. What she is, I think, is responsive desire. I believe that in her past (long before me, I might add) she went with the flow. Partner initiated sex, she had sex, and enjoyed it as much as the rest of us enjoy sex.

However, like just about anybody (especially women), she had some negative experiences with sex, particularly guys who only wanted her for that. She doesn't talk much about her past, but that has been one thing she's mentioned on more than one occasion - only being wanted for sex. That is a familiar complaint for many women, and I'm not sure there's a whole lot of you who can't say you've had at least one experience where you've felt this is the case.

Long story short, I tend to believe that she embraced her responsive desire once upon a time. And by the time we started dating she had consciously or subconsciously implemented these parameters on her sexuality. As in she will not 'give in' every time a guy tries to initiate sex.

So - control of her sexuality, something she likely did not feel at certain points in her life. She wants to be loved and wanted and desired for other reasons. With me, she is, obviously. But old habits die hard?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Far, I know you have a good heart. I know you are a sincere person. And these things make me have a good feeling about you overall.

But when I read some of your responses, I can understand the frustration your wife must feel with you. 

If you would like to hear my thoughts on that, let me know. I will not get into it if you do not want to.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Yes, we've talked, and she knows my stance, and doesn't disagree with it, either.
> 
> For my wife, I believe it is two-fold: There is a certain element of LD to her, for sure, but I largely believe it to be manufactured. What she is, I think, is responsive desire. I believe that in her past (long before me, I might add) she went with the flow. Partner initiated sex, she had sex, and enjoyed it as much as the rest of us enjoy sex.
> 
> ...


I certainly think she embraced her responsive desire the other day!

And that is because you made it possible for her. You made it safe.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.
> 
> Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't do it (withhold). You will suffer more. If she cares about you and your relationship, you have to tell her exactly what you have written here and how it affects you. I think the problem is often how to make the spouse understand what's a big deal and not feel embarrassed about it.
She can make up her own schedule in her head, make it irregular and pick days on her own in advance, if that's what she needs to get going, just not let you know what it is and when it's coming, then to you it will feel spontaneous and she will have time to build it up in her mind (I think my wife is similar). If she genuinely cares, she will make the effort. 
Is she Christian? It seems the bible has a verse about having a duty to care about those things (we are both atheists so it doesn't work for us  From spending too much time on the faith boards to pass time, it seems to me a very handy to use bible as leverage


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> I certainly think she embraced her responsive desire the other day!
> 
> And that is because you made it possible for her. You made it safe.


Yes, absolutely. It is not gone for good.

What I mean, though, is perhaps in her past she would have been capable of having sex daily, or even more, depending on how often her partner would initiate.

What it currently is, is once a week, and it's still responsive desire, but she limits herself to this one time. I still have to initiate on this day. I still had to initiate on Sunday.

That one day a week has become the defacto "it's okay to sexually touch me/kiss me deeply/initiate sex with me because I'll be responsive" day. Every other day is off limits for this. If I try to kiss her deeply on, say, a Tuesday, she will, but will also pull away after a few seconds, for example. It's like an alarm goes off in her head that says "It's not Saturday! It's not Saturday! Abort! Abort!"

The longer I've been with her, the more I think I'm starting to understand this to be the case. If I go to kiss her deeply on a Tuesday, I'm not actually looking for sex. I just want to make out with my wife. I used to think she just assumes I'm after sex - I'm not so sure any more. I think it's entirely possible that if we make out, SHE'LL want sex, and that's a no-no.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Yes, absolutely. It is not gone for good.
> 
> What I mean, though, is perhaps in her past she would have been capable of having sex daily, or even more, depending on how often her partner would initiate.
> 
> ...


Interesting!

Just keep making it safe for her, from your end.

And very good to hear the progress and insight! Nice to hear hopefulness in SIM!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

It sounds to me like the once a week thing is her compromise. Left to her own devices, she'd choose less, but keeps up with once a week to keep you happy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Sounds like my wife. Sunday between 2pm and 5pm we will have "sex". (well she'll give me a HJ).


That's one hell of a long handjob. Must be purple until next Sunday :wink2:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> I wouldn't do it (withhold). You will suffer more. If she cares about you and your relationship, you have to tell her exactly what you have written here and how it affects you. I think the problem is often how to make the spouse understand what's a big deal and not feel embarrassed about it.
> She can make up her own schedule in her head, make it irregular and pick days on her own in advance, if that's what she needs to get going, just not let you know what it is and when it's coming, then to you it will feel spontaneous and she will have time to build it up in her mind (I think my wife is similar). If she genuinely cares, she will make the effort.
> Is she Christian? It seems the bible has a verse about having a duty to care about those things (we are both atheists so it doesn't work for us  From spending too much time on the faith boards to pass time, it seems to me a very handy to use bible as leverage


Nope, no religion here. She's not a non-believer, either. Probably somewhere in between atheist and agnostic, who also doesn't really think about it all that much! I don't think she actually has an opinion on religion one way or the other.

I agree and also disagree with the "if she cares she'll make an effort". It's never that simple IRL. On paper, in words - yes, of course, just DO it! It's easy for us to say. It's like an alcoholic. They don't really want to hurt others, that's not the goal. But they do. The ones who are hurt by it can tell them to just quit. Seems sensible, including to the alcoholic, but it's just not that simple.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Nope, no religion here. She's not a non-believer, either. Probably somewhere in between atheist and agnostic, who also doesn't really think about it all that much! I don't think she actually has an opinion on religion one way or the other.
> 
> I agree and also disagree with the "if she cares she'll make an effort". It's never that simple IRL. On paper, in words - yes, of course, just DO it! It's easy for us to say. It's like an alcoholic. They don't really want to hurt others, that's not the goal. But they do. The ones who are hurt by it can tell them to just quit. Seems sensible, including to the alcoholic, but it's just not that simple.


Definitely no autism (mild)? She should be able to relate to how you feel and how it makes you feel, from YOUR perspective. I am grateful my wife makes an effort these days. But we had many discussions/fights about this...Otherwise I am not sure how I would have coped.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Definitely no autism (mild)? She should be able to relate to how you feel and how it makes you feel, from YOUR perspective. I am grateful my wife makes an effort these days. But we had many discussions/fights about this...Otherwise I am not sure how I would have coped.


It's been brought up before. I can't tell you a definitive "no", but I don't see it in any other aspect of her/our life.

Maybe I'm the autistic one... :scratchhead:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Far, I know you have a good heart. I know you are a sincere person. And these things make me have a good feeling about you overall.
> 
> But when I read some of your responses, I can understand the frustration your wife must feel with you.
> 
> If you would like to hear my thoughts on that, let me know. I will not get into it if you do not want to.


Of course. Maybe not on this thread as it looks like I have jacked it. Cue the boos and hisses for me doing so as a mod. Sorry if that is the case, Alex.

I will leave that to Alex as he knows whether it is helpful or not.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Big time, yeah. Which makes it all the more confusing to me. I've called it 'porn sex' here before, and that's pretty much the best description I can give of it.
> 
> Physically, I've never had sex this good in my life, and I can't imagine anybody could top her - no exaggeration.
> 
> It's so confusing.


Just trying to work it out: is the frustration that the scheduling is on her terms (a control thing, or rather, lack of it, for you) or about the quality of the build up (that you would prefer your wife to act more "sexually" outside of the sex "event"). The first thing is easier to change. The second, it would imply you are not so happy with her personality in this particular aspect?
Does your wife talk to you how it _feels for her_? It may be that she experiences and views the whole thing very differently from you. (You should not disregard the possibility that _you_ may be the one suffering from the same issue in terms of not being able to relate to how she feels about it.Maybe she feels there's plenty of spontaneity and build up but just doesn't know _how_ to change it so that YOU feel that too?).
Sounds so very similar to my wife, it's scary (also the porn sex part. I think it must be the 'responsive desire' thing).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

farsidejunky said:


> Of course. Maybe not on this thread as it looks like I have jacked it. Cue the boos and hisses for me doing so as a mod. Sorry if that is the case, Alex.
> 
> I will leave that to Alex as he knows whether it is helpful or not.


Didn't jack the thread at all. Pretty much on topic and helpful, so carry on, guys!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Not a performance (or if it is, it's A++!). I won't be 'that guy' who says "I can tell she's not faking", lol, because WTF do I really know about women, anyway?
> 
> What I do know is that she wouldn't bother faking this for this long, at this level.
> 
> She LIKES sex, she likes sex with ME - just once a week, with none of the stuff that goes on before or after, at any other time throughout the week, or even that DAY.


I actually find that part in my wife quite exciting: the fact that she is an otherwise shy, modest and relatively introvert person but also confident enough to transform into a "sex monster" in a very short space of time. It would be easier to understand your problem if the sex itself was monotone and boring but it sounds as if it's not so not all is lost :smile2:
It's the contrasts that might keep mine (and your) interest. How do you know for sure you will still be as attracted to her if she acted out the "****" in her whenever you walked past her? It seems like you have been together for a long time and maybe that is the kind of dynamic that keeps your interest in her.
Just a thought.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> It seems clear that different people experience sex very differently. It doesn't seem to be a male female thing, but something else - genetics? conditioning? who knows.
> 
> I see this as a very important piece of information for young people to have so that they can have happy relationships. That this sort of sexual compatibility is important for happiness, and that it seems fairly innate and doesn't often change very much.
> 
> ...


Some people may not have found a way to enjoy sex. If most of the "sex" actually happens in the brain (which it does), that's an obvious place to look for a solution. Many women seem to have issues to "let themselves go" (in their heads) and that's what stopping them from perhaps realising how enjoyable sex can be.
This is of course a massive generalization but one obvious aspect to look into.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> It seems clear that different people experience sex very differently. It doesn't seem to be a male female thing, but something else - genetics? conditioning? who knows.
> 
> I see this as a very important piece of information for young people to have so that they can have happy relationships. That this sort of sexual compatibility is important for happiness, and that it seems fairly innate and doesn't often change very much.
> 
> ...


Yep, and exactly the reason why "sex before marriage" should not be a bad idea...(sorry, O/T) Sexual compatibility is very important.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Update #1 - no sex last night, but I didn't have to avoid or reject. Went to bed at the same time after being out most of the night (but not too late). She wanted to snuggle, so we did for a while. I imagine she was expecting it would turn into something, but I kept my hands to myself.
> 
> I actually enjoyed the cuddling, knowing that it wasn't going to turn into something. We talked about the evening, and plans for today. Eventually I rolled over and slept like a baby.
> 
> ...


One other thing you might be conditioning yourself to (without knowing), is the *frustration *you experience, every time you feel she is not initiating it or the fact that sex initiation is more important to you, than it is to her. You might find that after a while, and because of association, instead of enjoying the actual sex act, you might end up being frustrated with it because it has been such a struggle for you. That's the trouble. 
I think my body has an ability to hold a grudge (even if my mind doesn't). I find it really hard to shake it off and it's a physical reaction. Every time it comes to sex, my mind is often racing because I suddenly remembered what it felt like when I was either rejected or when i felt that sex initiation was just not an important part for my wife and i felt powerless and empty. It's very strange.
I also know of couples where that feeling became so overpowering for one spouse (the HD one), that it eclipsed everything else and the relationship is over by this time. I haven't read about this much on TAM (body holding grudges) and perhaps something worth thinking/discussing about. I think it's a purely physiological phenomenon and not really something you can control. Your wife can though.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Personal said:


> Like @Satya and Odo whose participation here I still miss, I do the same thing to my wife. Since it's nice to tease her sexually for a brief moment, during times when neither of us is going to do anything. To the point that it excites both of us, and it frequently puts my wife into the mindset of wanting to have sex later.
> 
> Doing this is all very low key to begin with and is done in passing with escalation, in a very brief way that is quite playful with an explicit sexual edge.
> 
> ...


Some women might find this spiel incredibly annoying (my wife would). She's "practical". Whenever I touched her in this manner, she used to ask: "ok so where is this going?" Because it cannot "just happen" without it going anywhere. And even if it does go somewhere, who the **** cares.
Sorry for rant.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Capster said:


> Yeah, bad plan. A man needs to initiate when he wants sex, not avoid it. That's a beta move.
> 
> How do you initiate sex? I wouldn't consider "Hey, let's go upstairs" as initiating. That's talking about sex. When I broke my wife's habit I stripped and locked the door, then jumped on top of her. Initiate hard with your actions, not with your words. If need be, let her turn you down 5 times in a row, that way at least she knows she's doing it. Saying no when you ask her to go upstairs doesn't really feel like a turndown to her. When you're naked and jump on top of her, or throw her to the bed and start making out, then at least she knows you're initiating like an alpha not a beta.


Just be careful it's not going to be perceived as "rape" :|


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'd like to start this by first giving you credit for being willing to enter into this discussion with me, far. Not every moderator, or any poster in general, would be willing to consider his own hand in his marital troubles. Your courage--and curiosity--make me respect you, and give me hope for you.

I am just going to be honest and open and direct with you, like usual. 

Far, in a word, one of the main things likely holding you back in your marriage is your defensiveness.

Do you remember when Dug first mentioned that to you, about two years ago? It was an honest, open observation. Not meant to hurt you. 
Not meant to "attack" or "mischaracterize" or do anything else in any way harmful to you. It was just his honest feeling that he spontaneously shared with you.

You became reactive. Defensive. 

MEM told me once that when I get too close to the truth, people become reactive. That incident between you and Dug made me think of that. 

Far, this defensiveness has got to drive your wife crazy. She likely tries to explain her side, and your first instinct is undoubtedly to respond the way you have here, with defensiveness and aggressiveness. I saw it in a post you made earlier this morning on another thread, as well as in your posts to me yesterday.

Now, I know you. I know you are a good person. A very sweet and good-hearted person, as a matter of fact. And you do try to be fair, to the extent you are able to see different sides. But the reactivity probably clouds your vision.

Instead of defending yourself, how about just stopping and saying, "Tell me more"?

Instead of defending yourself, how about just engaging in Active Listening?

How about trying to understand where your wife is coming from--really, thoroughly understanding her--before trying to help her understand your point of view . . . without defending yourself, aggressing her, or demanding she agree with you?



One other thing I would like to address. Our spouses live with us. They usually know us inside and out. That is why their criticisms of us can be so valuable to our self-awareness, and potential strengthening.

When your wife says that she is raising two boys . . . think about that, far. Think about the underlying truth there. Think about how that makes her feel at times. Relate it to your own frustrations with her immaturity in certain areas. Let that empathy rise in you, and extend it to her. 

Empathy builds emotional safety. Like transparency, it builds trust.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> It sounds to me like the once a week thing is her compromise. Left to her own devices, she'd choose less, but keeps up with once a week to keep you happy.


It's about as responsive desire as the well known experiment done by my colleague Dr. Pavlov...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> I read your initial post again.
> 
> Many years ago you began to post and I said: Your main problem, is that she feels totally comfortable rejecting you at close to 100% frequency.


I did not know this. Is this true? Has she been rejecting you and then stopped? (or "settled" on a weekly routine). @alexm, I think you might be carrying over the "grudge" to your present day situation perhaps without realising this. This may colour your perception of the current situation and why your wife may have trouble figuring out what exactly is bothering you since you are having sex "regularly". She has to take into account the history as well.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I normally stay away from this forum because I'm low drive/non-existent drive and don't do a good job of explaining it when I attempt to. However, I'm sympathetic to Alex so I will try. 

I have CSA in my history. Not a lot but some. I can't ever remember a moment of my life when I thought sex had value. My body works but my mind doesn't work (in that regard) and that's always been the case. I was married to a very high drive man who was badly cheated in what he got with me. I tried to never turn him down but I never initiated (why would I when I never wanted sex). I tried to be as understanding as I am capable of about what sex means to other people but the truth is that I don't understand it at all. It's just missing in me. There's nothing there. I don't get it. Males always got caught up in how I look and had their own ideas as to how I should be. They have always been disappointed. My ex-husband swore he wasn't but he cheated so he probably was. 

Not every female is like me or anywhere close (thankfully). I assume few are, actually. But this is who I am and so it's normal for me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Far, in a word, one of the main things likely holding you back in your marriage is your defensiveness.
> 
> Do you remember when Dug first mentioned that to you, about two years ago? It was an honest, open observation. Not meant to hurt you.
> Not meant to "attack" or "mischaracterize" or do anything else in any way harmful to you. It was just his honest feeling that he spontaneously shared with you.
> ...


I think you confuse explaining my position with defensiveness. In your mind, where is the line between explaining and defensiveness? Because in all honesty, you use the term "explaining" when you agree or are neutral on a position, and label it as "defensive" when you disagree. Dug does exactly the same thing. 

I know I have used this example before, but it is so appropriate to how you approach this: it is like Al Sharpton arbitrarily calling someone a racist. Never mind that there may be no basis for whether or not it is true as this person spends the next several news cycles trying to show all of the things they have done in their past that demonstrate they are not racist. It pins someone in a proverbial corner, and they either accept being labeled as a racist or they attempt to show they are not. Is that defending or explaining? 

For the record, your labeling what I do as manipulation is much the same as Al Sharpton. The mere fact that you accept your opinion as fact and mine as...something else...affords you the ability to label me manipulative, followed by defensive. The same defensive label could be applied to how you explain your position. 

So... Help me understand: where is the line drawn between explaining and defending?



jld said:


> Far, this defensiveness has got to drive your wife crazy. She likely tries to explain her side, and your first instinct is undoubtedly to respond the way you have here, with defensiveness and aggressiveness. I saw it in a post you made earlier this morning on another thread, as well as in your posts to me yesterday.
> 
> Now, I know you. I know you are a good person. A very sweet and good-hearted person, as a matter of fact. And you do try to be fair, to the extent you are able to see different sides. But the reactivity probably clouds your vision.
> 
> ...


We have been down this road on multiple occasions. Her explanation is that sex is just not a big deal; she could take it or leave it; that this is her and I should not try to change her. This is all well and good, but then we have a situation where my wife says something sexual in nature to me (after she rejected me the previous three times I initiated in the preceding three or four weeks) and I shrugged my shoulders in indifference. She actually got angry over it, and it hurt her feelings. Me not getting excited over her making a sexual overture hurt _her_ feelings. 

When I stop opening doors for her, stop assisting her with her animals, stop doing acts of service for her that make her feel secure in our relationship such as taking her to lunch or calling to check on her, she gets angry with me, yet she can continue on a cycle of sex once or twice in a month and not bat an eye, or worse, actually get angry with me when I bring it up. Please tell me...who is defensive again?

I typically do not respond to her with defensiveness, although there are some instances where I slip. I simply tell her that if she wants more from me, she can start by doing more for me. 



jld said:


> One other thing I would like to address. Our spouses live with us. They usually know us inside and out. That is why their criticisms of us can be so valuable to our self-awareness, and potential strengthening.
> 
> When your wife says that she is raising two boys . . . think about that, far. Think about the underlying truth there. Think about how that makes her feel at times. Relate it to your own frustrations with her immaturity in certain areas. Let that empathy rise in you, and extend it to her.
> 
> Empathy builds emotional safety. Like transparency, it builds trust.


She has not made a statement like this in over two (maybe three) years. If this is an issue, she has not brought it up. Just last night, B11 decided he was going to carry some cat litter from the truck, which was about 50 yards from the house. He dropped it on the porch and it spilled everywhere. She lost her temper, and lashed out at B11. She then stormed over to me and screamed at me.

Her: How could you let him do that?!?
Me: Do what?
Her: Carry the litter before the truck was parked next to the house!!!
Me: He insisted on doing it after I suggested he not do it. He had to learn by making the mistake because he refused to listen.

She then stormed off. B11 was crushed and in tears. I knew exactly what I was doing. B11 insists on learning things the hard way, so I gently make a suggestion, and if he does not listen, I allow to learn from his own mistakes. 

I approached her 5 minutes later and told her she owes B11 an apology, and that her reaction was way out of line. She again lost her ****, and said that we were adding to her work. I then pointed out that she did not have to carry the litter, nor clean the mess, so it added not one iota of work to her. I think she got it then because she did not say anything else. I think she apologized to B11. I did not ask her for one, although she should have apologized to me as well. 

The point is that criticism of her is off limits. She handles criticism (or anything not being okay) by lashing out. Couple that with her attitude about me trying to change her, and this does indeed lead me to struggle with empathy for her, especially when I listen to her criticism of me with open ears, and always apologize when I have wronged her. Again, please tell me who is defensive. 

That is why I focus on myself. I am not being needy. I am not being vengeful or spiteful. I can go back to a relationship where we are living like roommates if that will be easier for her. I have enough in my life in which I can find enjoyment without needing things from her, by investing the time and energy I place into her into myself and B11 instead. 

However, if she wants more from me, she can start by doing more for me. If this does not work for her, then she is more than welcome to find someone else who will accept such a situation.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

@farsidejunky - thanks for that last post, it was very well laid out. I think it illustrates very well the difference between two people working as a team together and one person who (for one reason or the other) wants to work under their "rules" only (and the big part, they don't like it when you don't play along, and I think this is what burns us). I think it is important to realize as well, some people are just set in their ways. No amount of "inspiration" is going to change that. At that point, it will become very individualistic where the relationship goes and why a generic "do this and it will fix everything" approach that has been positioned here completely misses the mark. 

Not gonna lie, and maybe b/c I can more easily relate to your situation, I wasn't expecting your posts here to somehow get spun around into what you are doing wrong lol.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I think you confuse explaining my position with defensiveness. In your mind, where is the line between explaining and defensiveness? Because in all honesty, you use the term "explaining" when you agree or are neutral on a position, and label it as "defensive" when you disagree. Dug does exactly the same thing.
> 
> I know I have used this example before, but it is so appropriate to how you approach this: it is like Al Sharpton arbitrarily calling someone a racist. Never mind that there may be no basis for whether or not it is true as this person spends the next several news cycles trying to show all of the things they have done in their past that demonstrate they are not racist. It pins someone in a proverbial corner, and they either accept being labeled as a racist or they attempt to show they are not. Is that defending or explaining?
> 
> ...


Far, this post makes me smile in its sincerity, though much of it seems . . . defensive. From my perspective. 

It is also very earnest, just like you. 

Maybe later, try to reread what I have said, and see if you see anything you did not earlier. And I will reread what you have said. And maybe we can talk again. 

As to your frustrations in your marriage . . . You are the only one in your couple here, far. You are the only person we can address to help make your marriage better. 

I know it is hard for the buck to stop with you. But I don't see any other (effective) way to advise you.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Let me save you some time and heartbreak. What you are experiencing is who she is. You can't change it, and you can't control it. You need to decide if you want to spend the rest of your life living like that. The only thing that will change her libido is a new man, and when that wears off he will experience what you are already experiencing. I may be jaded, but that's what I believe. I have already cast my lot in life, so I'm stuck.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I normally stay away from this forum because I'm low drive/non-existent drive and don't do a good job of explaining it when I attempt to. However, I'm sympathetic to Alex so I will try.
> 
> I have CSA in my history. Not a lot but some. I can't ever remember a moment of my life when I thought sex had value. My body works but my mind doesn't work (in that regard) and that's always been the case. I was married to a very high drive man who was badly cheated in what he got with me. I tried to never turn him down but I never initiated (why would I when I never wanted sex). I tried to be as understanding as I am capable of about what sex means to other people but the truth is that I don't understand it at all. It's just missing in me. There's nothing there. I don't get it. Males always got caught up in how I look and had their own ideas as to how I should be. They have always been disappointed. My ex-husband swore he wasn't but he cheated so he probably was.
> 
> Not every female is like me or anywhere close (thankfully). I assume few are, actually. But this is who I am and so it's normal for me.



This kind of open and honest sharing could be beneficial over in CWI, as well.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Before we mutually disengage, can you please answer the question from my previous post?

Where does explaining end and defensiveness begin?



jld said:


> Far, this post makes me smile in its sincerity, though much of it seems . . . defensive. From my perspective.
> 
> It is also very earnest, just like you.
> 
> ...


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Of course one can be a nice guy without being a "nice guy". What I am doing is asserting a boundary.
> 
> When I am asked (or as it would be, frequently expected) to do loving acts for her while she gives excuses as she foregoes loving acts in return, it trips a boundary, and I stop giving as much.


Each relationship is as same-same as different I suppose... EB2 would respond poorly if I changed the amount of giving either way, so I have learned to not give more so my generosity is not interpreted by her as manipulation, nor less so my withdraw is seen as punishment and antagonistic uncaring... it simply is what it is, steady consistency wrapped in kindness whether her behavior or mine is in line with it or not. I have to add my behavior into this first for a proper check and balance because it helps evaluate my role in my boundary as well, thus fairness ensues.

I've practiced this in earnest the last six months through a variety of tests (on her part) and what used to be days of spiraling disagreements and potentially bad feelings are now quelled in a matter of hours and she is learning she can trust my stability as she inspects for reactions from either side and finds her lack of calm fades allowing intimacy to flow back in... this ensures an invitation more weekends than not, an affirmation that connections of the physical kind are still important to her to be important to us.

To have sex every couple days would upset this balance in the way she thinks and feels about us, again, it's a sword I choose to bypass knowing I am loved and will be loved with a more intense physical intimacy once a week.

I guess my point to @alexm is to trust the process without complicating it in desire overthought.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ellis:

All of us can improve in at least some ways, myself included. Could I be a better husband? Sure. 

I am dealing with this situation in a way that works for me to not build resentment. Most days we are pretty good, even if it does not sound like it. 

However, when I am taken for granted, it is a trigger for me. I have explained it to her that way, but little has changed. She says she understands. She just does not prioritize me. It is not malicious. It is just her dealing with life the best she can.

That is what we are both doing.



EllisRedding said:


> @farsidejunky - thanks for that last post, it was very well laid out. I think it illustrates very well the difference between two people working as a team together and one person who (for one reason or the other) wants to work under their "rules" only (and the big part, they don't like it when you don't play along, and I think this is what burns us). I think it is important to realize as well, some people are just set in their ways. No amount of "inspiration" is going to change that. At that point, it will become very individualistic where the relationship goes and why a generic "do this and it will fix everything" approach that has been positioned here completely misses the mark.
> 
> Not gonna lie, and maybe b/c I can more easily relate to your situation, I wasn't expecting your posts here to somehow get spun around into what you are doing wrong lol.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Before we mutually disengage, can you please answer the question from my previous post?
> 
> Where does explaining end and defensiveness begin?


If the person you are addressing does not feel listened to and understood, both your "explaining" and your defending are likely to feel like the same thing. And neither of them are likely to go anywhere.

Far, before your wife can really hear what you are trying to tell her, with whatever motive, she probably needs to feel you understand where *she* is coming from. That is the essence of Active Listening: People calm down when they feel understood. Their minds relax. They start to open and are able to emotionally and intellectually accept (slowly, gently in some) ideas that may differ from their own. 

And that is because they were first given the emotional safety in what they already believed, to be able to consider something different, without feeling threatened by it. Without that emotional safety, the conversation is likely to go nowhere.

And I should probably take my own advice above. 

You feel like when I disagree with you, I think you are being defensive. And when I agree with you, I don't consider you to be defensive, but to be explaining yourself. Is that right?

As far as Al Sharpton calling someone a racist, or anyone labeling anyone anything, remember: You do not have to give anyone's ideas any power over you. They have no power you do not give them.

Now, if you do feel inspired (or provoked ) by something they say, stay with that for a minute. Ask yourself why. Ponder why it touched your conscience the way it did.

There are folks who post on TAM who I usually just give a drive by glance to. But once in a while one will say something that will have me thinking hard. Usually it is something sincere and heartfelt, something that has pained them in their lives. Once in a while it is something wise.

Those are valuable posts to me. Anything that really gets me thinking is valuable to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Ellis:
> 
> All of us can improve in at least some ways, myself included. Could I be a better husband? Sure.
> 
> ...


And this is a mature post.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I think you confuse explaining my position with defensiveness. In your mind, where is the line between explaining and defensiveness? Because in all honesty, you use the term "explaining" when you agree or are neutral on a position, and label it as "defensive" when you disagree. Dug does exactly the same thing.
> 
> I know I have used this example before, but it is so appropriate to how you approach this: it is like Al Sharpton arbitrarily calling someone a racist. Never mind that there may be no basis for whether or not it is true as this person spends the next several news cycles trying to show all of the things they have done in their past that demonstrate they are not racist. It pins someone in a proverbial corner, and they either accept being labeled as a racist or they attempt to show they are not. Is that defending or explaining?
> 
> ...


I don't have anything helpful to add to this - just wanted to let you know I actually laughed when I read the cat litter story because I also have a son who "needs to learn the hard way". My H and I have had the same situations erupt exactly as you described where I get frustrated because I just wanted the task DONE as quickly and efficiently as possible, and adding son into the mix causes delays or messes. 

My H has this look that he shoots me. It's not nasty. I can't describe it. All he has to do is give me that look and I instantly cool my jets and shut up immediately and let him take over with whatever issue the kid is having at that moment. The best I can do is describe it is a "back off" signal. I don't take offense to it. I just step back and let him handle it. 

This issue is worth discussing with your wife at some point. I can be quick tempered also (I'm a high stress person by nature) and I've definitely lost my **** on my kids before and then felt terrible about it later. My H and I both mutually agreed that one of our goals is to be firm and fair to the kids, but not mean. If one of us is at the point of completely losing it, the calm one usually steps in quickly to get the angry parent out of the equation and try to de-escalate. I grew up in a house with a lot of yelling and I don't want that for my kids. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

alexm said:


> Long story short, I tend to believe that she embraced her responsive desire once upon a time. And by the time we started dating she had consciously or subconsciously implemented these parameters on her sexuality. As in she will not 'give in' every time a guy tries to initiate sex.
> 
> So - control of her sexuality, something she likely did not feel at certain points in her life. She wants to be loved and wanted and desired for other reasons. With me, she is, obviously. But old habits die hard?


 I've been lurking this thread for a few days. Read some of your past threads as well and this is probably the closest to how I personally feel in my marriage and why yes, I am a control freak about sex.

I think I have a naturally higher drive than your wife, so I am not just responsively driven and there are not just set days but for the most part, including at times in my marriage I feel like there has to be control otherwise I am taken advantage of.

The only thing that has really put my defenses down are a) scheduling sex and b) full relief of pressure. That bad thing is that this still doesn't really make anyone happy...so wish I had a better solution than a time machine!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I normally stay away from this forum because I'm low drive/non-existent drive and don't do a good job of explaining it when I attempt to. However, I'm sympathetic to Alex so I will try.
> 
> I have CSA in my history. Not a lot but some. I can't ever remember a moment of my life when I thought sex had value. My body works but my mind doesn't work (in that regard) and that's always been the case. I was married to a very high drive man who was badly cheated in what he got with me. I tried to never turn him down but I never initiated (why would I when I never wanted sex). I tried to be as understanding as I am capable of about what sex means to other people but the truth is that I don't understand it at all. It's just missing in me. There's nothing there. I don't get it. Males always got caught up in how I look and had their own ideas as to how I should be. They have always been disappointed. My ex-husband swore he wasn't but he cheated so he probably was.
> 
> Not every female is like me or anywhere close (thankfully). I assume few are, actually. But this is who I am and so it's normal for me.


Thank you for sharing--we need more LD input around here.

Honest question here--If instead of lying to you, your husband had been upfront and sought your permission about his intentions to go outside the marriage for sex, would it still have hurt? Or would it have been along the lines of "Hey, I'd like to go play racquetball with Anita, do you mind?"


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

jld said:


> This kind of open and honest sharing could be beneficial over in CWI, as well.


I admit I'm amazed at the non-cheating by the TAM men when they have a wife similar to me. I guess I'm conditioned to cheating when there's sexual incompatibility. My father cheated on my mother. My husband cheated on me. Others in my family were cheated on as well. Based on that, I would have said virtually all men cheat but that's obviously not true. 

I was always an ultra-giver but I couldn't manufacture desire (and that's what my husband wanted). I don't even know what that would be like. Maybe CSA shut me down. Or maybe I'm just not remotely close to the norm and that would be the case even without CSA. I don't know. But CSA has impacted my life for sure and the older I get the more I see the damage. It can make for a very tough marriage and I won't try that again.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Ellis:
> 
> All of us can improve in at least some ways, myself included. Could I be a better husband? Sure.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, there is always room for improvement and self reflection. At the end of the day I can only control my actions as best I can, so that is what I need to take responsibility for. 

Funny, on the prioritize topic, that is very similar to my W. When there is other stuff going on (i.e. the kids, etc...) I quickly fall to the bottom of the list. This is not malicious in any way, it is just how she handles things, and I think in part it is easy to slide me down the list because I have always been the stable/constant part of her life for so long. Honestly, I don't even mind to an extent b/c I am not one that demands frequent attention (I am actually quite the opposite). There is a fine line though where it moves from dealing with life and being taken for granted (probably what you see as well)

I think it is important to note, when I talk about backing away (and would guess this applies to most of the other people here in similar situations), refocusing on other areas, etc.. it is not like we are saying we just simply disregard/ignore our SO. I still take on my responsibilities as a Husband and father. For me though, I am mentally tired of having our sex life be 99.8% my responsibility. At this moment, the way for me to avoid building resentment is to refocus my energies elsewhere. Right now, this is the best solution for me, even if it is not necessarily ideal for my W


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Thank you for sharing--we need more LD input around here.
> 
> Honest question here--If instead of lying to you, your husband had been upfront and sought your permission about his intentions to go outside the marriage for sex, would it still have hurt? Or would it have been along the lines of "Hey, I'd like to go play racquetball with Anita, do you mind?"


Truthfully, I would have been tremendously hurt. I tried to be what he wanted but I have no ability to feel desire and that's what he wanted most (and, I assume, what he found when he cheated). 

He always assured me that I was what he wanted but obviously I wasn't. Not completely. He fought the divorce but a big part of me was relieved I could finally quit failing him. It's like trying to communicate in a language that everyone else but you knows very well. Frustrating for everyone. Hopefully, his second wife was not like me.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Truthfully, I would have been tremendously hurt. I tried to be what he wanted but I have no ability to feel desire and that's what he wanted most (and, I assume, what he found when he cheated).
> 
> He always assured me that I was what he wanted but obviously I wasn't. Not completely. He fought the divorce but a big part of me was relieved I could finally quit failing him. It's like trying to communicate in a language that everyone else but you knows very well. Frustrating for everyone. Hopefully, his second wife was not like me.


So, if I understand correctly, the pain would have been caused more by your perceived failure to live up to his desires, than it would have been by his asking to open up the marriage?

Apologies if I'm prying. I'm just trying to learn.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> So, if I understand correctly, the pain would have been caused more by your perceived failure to live up to his desires, than it would have been by his asking to open up the marriage?
> 
> Apologies if I'm prying. I'm just trying to learn.


Smiling. I'm here to try to help so to me there's no such thing as prying. 

I wanted to be enough just as I was. Just as he assured me was the case but apparently wasn't. There's no possibility he would have asked for an open marriage since that conflicted too much with how we were brought up so his solution was to cheat. He was totally opposed to divorce. Looking back, the signs he was cheating were there many years before I had any proof. 

We were young when we got married and while we were far from experienced we also were not each other's first. I knew I wasn't the norm all those decades ago but hoped I would get better. That just didn't happen. He knew what it was like to be with someone who was not like me so despite his relative inexperience he too knew I wasn't the norm. We grew up in an ultra-conservative time and place. Plus, I was brought up by a very tough parent. There was no such thing as failure, ever. So when I failed at sex it didn't occur to me to divorce him so he could find someone normal although in retrospect I should have done that before we eventually had a child. I kept trying. I wanted to please him. 

Our marriage had many problems. We were basically incompatible in every area, not just sex, but sex is where the problems played out. It was a great relief for me when I finally divorced him decades later. We remained good friends and, with my problems, that's all we ever should have been. But when you're young you're optimistic.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Smiling. I'm here to try to help so to me there's no such thing as prying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This story tells me that trying really hard to be someone you are not (or expecting someone to be they are not) is not the best course of action as eventually it will reach a breaking point.

Trouble is that it seems to me it is impossible to be completely compatible in absolutely all areas so do t know what solution is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Compromise.

Hypothetically speaking, if I want something at 2, but my wife wants it at 10, we try to find a level of comfort with which we can both live, say 6. However, if 4 is the absolute highest I will go, and 8 is the lowest she will go, then I either learn to live with it or accept that we are not compatible.



inmyprime said:


> This story tells me that trying really hard to be someone you are not (or expecting someone to be they are not) is not the best course of action as eventually it will reach a breaking point.
> 
> Trouble is that it seems to me it is impossible to be completely compatible in absolutely all areas so do t know what solution is.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@inmyprime: Agreed that no 2 people are compatible in every area. I always suggest that if you are going to be incompatible about something (and every couple is), best to pick something other than sex. In my view, sex is the worst thing to be incompatible about. Two main reasons.

First, it is the only activity where both partners probably expect absolute fidelity. If only one of you likes to fish, they can go fishing with someone else. If you like anchovies on your salad and I don't, I probably won't ban you from ordering them. But with sex, if your partner does not feel like having sex with you, they generally expect you to go without (and, no, I do not view masturbation as anything close to an equivalent substitute) until they are willing to participate as well.

Second, for many people, sex is a very big deal. If someone asked me do I think they can go the rest of their life not playing golf as often as they wanted, or not eating Chinese food as often as they wanted, or do either of those MORE often than they wanted, I would say yes they might well be able to endure that for years or even decades. But if you ask me whether most people can participate in sex substantially more or less often than they desire for themselves, I would say most people end up NOT being able to tolerate that mismatch. And many of them do not realize this until years into the relationship.

Finally, my warning goes out to the LDs. You may think that sex is no big deal and that your partner loves you and will tolerate having sex less often than they prefer "forever". You may think that your partner is a great "catch" and that it is worth "hooking" them by pretending to be able to tolerate more sex than you actually can. You may think that once they say "I do" they won't want to divorce so you will have tied this high quality person to you, and that will make your life better. It rarely works out that way. Sex is a big deal to the HD. They will eventually catch on that you were pretending. They won't appreciate it. And no matter how much they earn or how "nice" they are or how good a parent they are to your children, in most cases you will end up regretting that you married someone under false pretences. It is no fun to be married to someone who is not happy to be married to you. As @Openminded said, it is no fun to constantly feel like a failure. Which both sides of the mismatch often end up feeling. Just don't do it. It is almost always a bad idea. Just as much for the LD as for the HD.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: Agreed that no 2 people are compatible in every area. I always suggest that if you are going to be incompatible about something (and every couple is), best to pick something other than sex. In my view, sex is the worst thing to be incompatible about. Two main reasons.


I can't believe that something as obvious as this, only has to come through personal experience and so late in life. I am definitely going to drill this "truth" into my childrens' minds. Throughout my life (being naive) I always felt it's ridiculous that people give sex such an importance. After all, my wife didn't feel it was a big deal if we *didn't* have any, why should I give this area so much weight?
Obviously it's completely the wrong way to think about it. Only now, in my mid thirties, it is beginning to dawn on me that it's probably one of the most important areas for the reasons you rightly outline. My head is still telling me "it's ridiculous" (because "if you truly love each other you should be able to overcome anything that life throws at your marriage". My bollocks say: "bollocks to that!".)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> At risk of being a buzz kill......
> 
> Having sex - 'when you don't want to' is - let's freeze the frame right there. And I mean - right there.
> 
> ...


Exactly right.

Responsive desire and sexual aversion are completely different.

One can be solved if the partner with responsive desire is willing to give their responsive desire a chance to kick in.

Sexual aversion is a whole 'nother problem and can probably only rarely be fixed. But, even in this case, the only way it could be "fixed" is if the partner with the sexual aversion realizes that their partner's needs are important to the relationship and they are willing to try to resolve the issue.

The first step to solving the problem is usually the same, the LD partner has to acknowledge the problem and then be willing to work on it (with their spouse's help).


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Sexual aversion is a whole 'nother problem and can probably only rarely be fixed. But, even in this case, the only way it could be "fixed" is if the partner with the sexual aversion realizes that their partner's needs are important to the relationship and they are willing to try to resolve the issue.


I think the LD needs to want it at least somewhat for themselves. Overcoming aversion is hard and often painful work. If the only motivation is to please one's partner, that sets up conflict. In the best case the LD wants to learn to enjoy sex.

See, the tricky part is that most people with an aversion desperately want to avoid seeing themselves as "broken". They want their partner to accept them as they are. They want to feel that not enjoying sex is perfectly OK. But to overcome aversion, most people need to see aversion as something wrong. Something that needs to be "fixed". Very hard to decide to fix something that isn't broken. This is very tough stuff.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> Responsive desire and sexual aversion are completely different.
> 
> ...


Sexual aversion surely has something to do with the partner? It's difficult to believe that there are people who are actually averse to _any_ sexual act with _anyone_.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

LD is often partner related. The LD isn't averse to sex, they are just averse to sex with their current partner.

But many people ARE averse to sex in general. Unfortunately, far far too often that results from rape, CSA, etc. Still, there are people who have never been abused but who nevertheless are quite averse to sex. Some are turned off by the odors, some by the sounds and positions. It happens.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> This is another area where I have gotten hung up on (not sure if others can relate). Aside from the fact that for me actions speak louder then words, but a good example (and maybe this is how an LD person may rationalize). At times my W will tell me she wants me, etc... during the day when it is not possible for anything to happen. Typically, by the time we would get any alone time (at night after the kids are asleep) the moment has long passed for her. I do believe in her mind she "initiated" earlier in the day, so check one off her to do list. For me, after it happening quite a few times, the words just become meaningless. I know now that when she brings it up in the day time, I will have plenty of time to catch up on tv shows / movies at night


You need to call her out on this. She may think that she's getting points for telling you that she desires you during the day.

Point out to her that, although you appreciate the thought, saying things that she is almost never able to follow through on actually is a problem and could be regarded as "negative points".

If I was doing something that I thought was a positive for my wife but it turned out that it was actually negative for her, I'd sure want to know.

My wife had a habit of promising me things when she got home from being out of town. She really meant it at the time. But, a 4 hour plane ride later and the motivation wasn't there any more. I'd be all worked up and when I picked her up she'd look trashed. I'm certainly not the guy that's going to put my needs above hers in a situation like that and, if she'd never said anything I wouldn't have initiated with her in that condition. But, I did feel left down. We instituted a new rule: no blowjobs after long trips home. If she did it again, I'd remind her of the new rule. Keeps her from promising things she can't deliver and keeps me from being disappointed.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't see a judge ordering sexual relations anywhere in there, john. Nor his or her standing over anyone (with a police officer nearby, ready to arrest) insisting it happen.
> 
> Marital relations are ultimately voluntary.


And so are marriages.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Sexual aversion surely has something to do with the partner? It's difficult to believe that there are people who are actually averse to _any_ sexual act with _anyone_.


There are many people like that, in fact.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Yes, we've talked, and she knows my stance, and doesn't disagree with it, either.
> 
> For my wife, I believe it is two-fold: There is a certain element of LD to her, for sure, but I largely believe it to be manufactured. What she is, I think, is responsive desire. I believe that in her past (long before me, I might add) she went with the flow. Partner initiated sex, she had sex, and enjoyed it as much as the rest of us enjoy sex.
> 
> ...


I have responsive desire for going to the gym.

I never really WANT to go but I always feel great when I do.

Getting myself over the hump to go anyway (knowing that I'll enjoy it when I do) takes effort.

The more often I go; the more going to the gym is a regular part of my life, the easier it is to go and, thus, the better I feel.

In the past she was motivated to give her responsive desire a chance because, if she didn't, there would be a relationship for long.

And, once she allowed her responsive desire to kick in, she enjoys(ed) sex.

But, now she's in a stable relationship so there's no need to discomfort herself to give her responsive desire a chance. 

What's going to happen if she doesn't?

Obviously, nothing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> And so are marriages.


Absolutely. Long live no fault divorce!


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## Marie Jenkinson (Apr 11, 2017)

alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.
> 
> Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.
> 
> ...



Hi OP.
Id sit your wife down and let her know her schedule and attitude towards your sex life is unacceptable and is ruining you marriage. She doesn't understand that sex for men is like 90% of the marriage when your not getting it and 10% of the marriage when your are. 
Personally, I dont care if im in the mood or not. If my husband wants to have sex, im up for it, even if I have to act more excited about the impending act than I actually am. A marriage is not one sided where the man just pays for his wife's lifestyle and he gets nothing in return. Yes, OP you are being used. She needs to step up her game or you could go find another wife (meaning you'd be polygamous) if theirshe anything that can get a woman to take notice of her negligence towards her husband its another wife.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
What is the most direct thing you have said to A2 about this situation?






Marie Jenkinson said:


> Hi OP.
> Id sit your wife down and let her know her schedule and attitude towards your sex life is unacceptable and is ruining you marriage. She doesn't understand that sex for men is like 90% of the marriage when your not getting it and 10% of the marriage when your are.
> Personally, I dont care if im in the mood or not. If my husband wants to have sex, im up for it, even if I have to act more excited about the impending act than I actually am. A marriage is not one sided where the man just pays for his wife's lifestyle and he gets nothing in return. Yes, OP you are being used. She needs to step up her game or you could go find another wife (meaning you'd be polygamous) if theirshe anything that can get a woman to take notice of her negligence towards her husband its another wife.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> At this moment, the way for me to avoid building resentment is to refocus my energies elsewhere. Right now, this is the best solution for me, even if it is not necessarily ideal for my W


Has* your *wife noticed?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> This story tells me that trying really hard to be someone you are not (or expecting someone to be they are not) is not the best course of action as eventually it will reach a breaking point.
> 
> Trouble is that it seems to me it is impossible to be completely compatible in absolutely all areas so do t know what solution is.
> 
> ...



Being sexually incompatible is a very big "lose" for both parties. It's always there running in the background. I felt I was constantly having sex. He felt he was never having sex. We had happy moments during our marriage but not happy lives. If I had it to do over, I would never have married him. But once I did marry him, I wasn't brought up to quit so I kept trying long past the point I should have. He would have never divorced me so I had to divorce him (another round of cheating). 

I am happy divorced and he was happy remarried.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

FrenchFry said:


> I've been lurking this thread for a few days. Read some of your past threads as well and this is probably the closest to how I personally feel in my marriage and why yes, I am a control freak about sex.
> 
> I think I have a naturally higher drive than your wife, so I am not just responsively driven and there are not just set days but for the most part, including at times in my marriage I feel like there has to be control otherwise I am taken advantage of.
> 
> The only thing that has really put my defenses down are a) scheduling sex and b) full relief of pressure. That bad thing is that this still doesn't really make anyone happy...so wish I had a better solution than a time machine!


Interesting, thanks!

So, unless I read incorrectly, you were similarly free with your sex life at some point in your life?

If that's it, then did you feel shame or guilt because of it? Did you have a bad experience (or more than one)? Or did you start to feel men only wanted you for one thing?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> I did not know this. Is this true? Has she been rejecting you and then stopped? (or "settled" on a weekly routine).
> @alexm, I think you might be carrying over the "grudge" to your present day situation perhaps without realising this. This may colour your perception of the current situation and why your wife may have trouble figuring out what exactly is bothering you since you are having sex "regularly". She has to take into account the history as well.


Yes and no. I think the posts referred to where waaay back in the earlier days of our relationship - as in, once the honeymoon period ended (which for us lasted ~2 years or so). There was a point around then when she did start rejecting me, and not in a 'nice' way, and it obviously got to me. I figured I passed the half year mark of the relationship and the sex was still going strong, so it was going to be like that going forward.

It's got to the point where I didn't put myself in a position to BE rejected anymore. And here we are, lol


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think the LD needs to want it at least somewhat for themselves. Overcoming aversion is hard and often painful work. If the only motivation is to please one's partner, that sets up conflict. In the best case the LD wants to learn to enjoy sex.
> 
> See, the tricky part is that most people with an aversion desperately want to avoid seeing themselves as "broken". They want their partner to accept them as they are. They want to feel that not enjoying sex is perfectly OK. But to overcome aversion, most people need to see aversion as something wrong. Something that needs to be "fixed". Very hard to decide to fix something that isn't broken. This is very tough stuff.


One would assume that the LD is interested in having a happy marriage.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: Agreed that no 2 people are compatible in every area. I always suggest that if you are going to be incompatible about something (and every couple is), best to pick something other than sex. In my view, sex is the worst thing to be incompatible about. Two main reasons.


The problem is that you usually have to wait until the New Relationship Energy to dissipate That could be a couple of years each. 

Hard to iterate too many times at that frequency.

Worse, you may have to wait until you have kids. 

Harder to iterate THAT more than once.

The best measure is to focus on finding someone who is truly interested in your happiness.

I'd also suggest the hypothetical question "what would be your response to losing your libido?".

If the answer is "I only believe in having sex when I really want to"; time to look elsewhere.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Openminded said:


> I admit I'm amazed at the non-cheating by the TAM men when they have a wife similar to me. I guess I'm conditioned to cheating when there's sexual incompatibility. My father cheated on my mother. My husband cheated on me. Others in my family were cheated on as well. Based on that, I would have said virtually all men cheat but that's obviously not true.


I think you don't see cheating as often as you'd think because for most of us (men and women) who have LD/ND partners, it's not the _sex_ that's the real issue. I can say that's true in my case, anyway.

I truly do love my wife. I want to have regular sex with her, without schedules and strings and controlled by either of us. But I don't want to _get laid_. It's not about sex, it's about this connection that I'm missing with her, and nobody else. Every other way, we're intertwined almost perfectly - except this. And I don't WANT to have this connection with anybody but her.

Men cheat, yes, but so do women. In remarkably high numbers, too, probably not as far off from each other as one would think.

People cheat for all kinds of reasons, but I believe it all boils down to one core reason - self-esteem/ego. Somebody wanting you feels good. For some people, that temptation is too much.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> LD is often partner related. The LD isn't averse to sex, they are just averse to sex with their current partner.


And often it isn't so much the partner but the fact that they have been in a long term relationship with that partner.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> What is the most direct thing you have said to A2 about this situation?


I am also VERY interested in the answer to this question.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Interesting, thanks!
> 
> So, unless I read incorrectly, you were similarly free with your sex life at some point in your life?
> 
> If that's it, then did you feel shame or guilt because of it? Did you have a bad experience (or more than one)? Or did you start to feel men only wanted you for one thing?


As best as I recall, I believe @FrenchFry's solution was a result of her current SO's behavior (perhaps piled on top of prior experience).

What sucks for you is that you weren't responsible for any of the behavior that caused your wife to have this attitude.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Sexual aversion surely has something to do with the partner? It's difficult to believe that there are people who are actually averse to _any_ sexual act with _anyone_.


It's difficult to believe from our POV, yes.

But consider it this way: I am a heterosexual male who likes women, and having sex with women. I have no desire to have sex with a man. Not because I think it's wrong, or gross, or I'm against it (I'm not any of those), but because I simply have no desire to, period. A homosexual man would have a hard time understanding why I wouldn't want to have sex with another man, no matter what I say. And truthfully, there's no reason other than "I don't want to".

This, I imagine, is much how an LD person feels. Sex isn't gross, or wrong, or they're against it - they just have no desire to do it, even though it can feel good. If I had sex with a man - it would physically feel good, I have no doubt. Yet I still don't want to.

Aversion is a completely different animal. Obviously there are many people who are averse to homosexual sex, and that's their reason for not being interested in it. To them it's wrong, bad, gross, whatever. A sexually averse person, I imagine, has the same feelings for sex of any kind as a homophobe does for homosexual sex.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> What is the most direct thing you have said to A2 about this situation?


Everything I've said in this thread, and probably more. She knows exactly how I feel about it all, from the walls she's built up over time (with others, as well), to trying to meet my needs by doing things she would want (and not what my actual needs are) to... everything else...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> It's difficult to believe from our POV, yes.
> 
> But consider it this way: I am a heterosexual male who likes women, and having sex with women. I have no desire to have sex with a man. Not because I think it's wrong, or gross, or I'm against it (I'm not any of those), but because I simply have no desire to, period. A homosexual man would have a hard time understanding why I wouldn't want to have sex with another man, no matter what I say. And truthfully, there's no reason other than "I don't want to".
> 
> ...


Yes of course I get this part. But the point is that if you don't want to have sex with a homosexual man, you will still enjoy having sex with a heterosexual woman and a homosexual man will enjoy having sex with another man, if he doesn't have the desire to have sex with a woman. Meaning that the desire is there, it's just not finding the right outlet. So my constant doubts and insecurities often revolve around the fact that I imagine that it is not out of the question that my wife could have an entirely different sex drive with a more sexually compatible guy for her. I am just not _that_ guy and my wife doesn't have a problem. *I* could be the problem.
I would be curious to know if @Openminded experienced the exact same lack of desire with all her partners or whether it varied in intensity?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Everything I've said in this thread, and probably more. She knows exactly how I feel about it all, from the walls she's built up over time (with others, as well), to trying to meet my needs by doing things she would want (and not what my actual needs are) to... everything else...


Were they stated as things you would *like* or as things that you need to have a fulfilling marriage?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course I get this part. But the point is that if you don't want to have sex with a homosexual man, you will still enjoy having sex with a heterosexual woman and a homosexual man will enjoy having sex with another man, if he doesn't have the desire to have sex with a woman. Meaning that the desire is there, it's just not finding the right outlet. So my constant doubts and insecurities often revolve around the fact that I imagine that *it is not out of the question that my wife could have an entirely different sex drive with a more sexually compatible guy for her.* I am just not _that_ guy and my wife doesn't have a problem. *I* could be the problem.
> I would be curious to know if @Openminded experienced the exact same lack of desire with all her partners or whether it varied in intensity?


I think there is truth to this. But you might be able to learn the things that the other guy knows instinctively.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course I get this part. But the point is that if you don't want to have sex with a homosexual man, you will still enjoy having sex with a heterosexual woman and a homosexual man will enjoy having sex with another man, if he doesn't have the desire to have sex with a woman. Meaning that the desire is there, it's just not finding the right outlet. So my constant doubts and insecurities often revolve around the fact that I imagine that it is not out of the question that my wife could have an entirely different sex drive with a more sexually compatible guy for her. I am just not _that_ guy and my wife doesn't have a problem. *I* could be the problem.
> I would be curious to know if @Openminded experienced the exact same lack of desire with all her partners or whether it varied in intensity?


Yes, exact same lack of desire with the few partners I've had. Not much of a sample size though. I've never had desire for anyone. My ex-husband was a very handsome man. I could see that obviously but there was certainly nothing like I've read about on TAM as far as tremendous attraction goes. I don't know what that would be like.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Has* your *wife noticed?


To an extent yes, but it is actually odd. In the past when I would build up resentment I would get distant from her (hard not to since in general I am a very independent person, so the physical aspect really helps me maintain the emotional connection) . Funny enough, now that I am at "peace" with things I don't get that way, still trying to plan trips away and do things with her, but really just don't show much interest or effort in the physical side of things. I have a weekend away planned later next month. In the past we try to plan it so it doesn't fall during that time of the month. For the upcoming trip she commented that it might be bad timing and I responded that it didn't really matter to me. I wasn't trying to make a snide comment about it, I was actually being honest. I was just looking forward to getting away for a few days, been working a lot of hours, etc... so whether or not the trip fell on that time made no difference to me. She definitely seemed to be taken aback by this comment. During this time as well she keeps telling me she is having dreams that I am leaving her. Just kind of bizarre b/c if anything I have been just as attentive as usual, still trying to do stuff with her. Everything else in our marriage/family is fine (hectic, but nothing new there with 3 young kids). The only difference, I am no longer pursuing her physically like I used to, and I guess maybe subconsciously that is how she is processing it (almost like something must be up since he doesn't seem bothered about this like he used to).


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course I get this part. But the point is that if you don't want to have sex with a homosexual man, you will still enjoy having sex with a heterosexual woman and a homosexual man will enjoy having sex with another man, if he doesn't have the desire to have sex with a woman. Meaning that the desire is there, it's just not finding the right outlet. So my constant doubts and insecurities often revolve around the fact that I imagine that it is not out of the question that my wife could have an entirely different sex drive with a more sexually compatible guy for her. I am just not _that_ guy and my wife doesn't have a problem. *I* could be the problem.
> I would be curious to know if @Openminded experienced the exact same lack of desire with all her partners or whether it varied in intensity?





Openminded said:


> We were young when we got married and while we were far from experienced we also were not each other's first. I knew I wasn't the norm all those decades ago but hoped I would get better.


It's called monotogamy (by Dr. Psych Mom, at least)

Reader Q: If Monogamy Kills Libido in Women, How Can I Increase My Sex Drive? - Dr. Psych Mom


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> I think you don't see cheating as often as you'd think because for most of us (men and women) who have LD/ND partners, it's not the _sex_ that's the real issue. I can say that's true in my case, anyway.
> 
> I truly do love my wife. I want to have regular sex with her, without schedules and strings and controlled by either of us. But I don't want to _get laid_. It's not about sex, it's about this connection that I'm missing with her, and nobody else. Every other way, we're intertwined almost perfectly - except this. And I don't WANT to have this connection with anybody but her.
> 
> ...


Have you considered sex therapy? I just read about how they can help with the communication in a marriage, and low desire is a frequently common issue they help couples address. If anything, a few sessions can help you both with options and ideas, since this issue seems to be a big one in your marriage. I'm usually not very optimistic about much of MC, but sex therapy may really help in a situation like yours, especially if it's related to any changes your wife may be experiencing (hormonal, age-related, etc.). 

Sex is important in marriage, and it's obviously VERY important to you. I don't think you should have to live with a sub-par sex life, and there could be something going on that she's not communicating to you, since you both get along well in other areas.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I think there is truth to this. But you might be able to learn the things that the other guy knows instinctively.


Well if it involves wearing a mask of george clooney or learn a Scottish accent, I am not doing it...

But seriously, attraction is not something we can have any control over. It's not something I can do or learn, it's who I *am* and my wife may not be as attracted to that.

I felt like I won a million bucks when I managed to "conquer" my wife (at the time, she was very popular and many guys were after her). But now that I *have* her (plus the million bucks  I don't feel like like much of a winner if she is not actually totally into me, as much as I am into *her*...So I think I may have played this game all wrong. Hard pursuits don't necessarily have to pay off in the way we imagine.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Well if it involves wearing a mask of george clooney or learn a Scottish accent, I am not doing it...
> 
> But seriously, attraction is not something we can have any control over. It's not something I can do or learn, it's who I *am* and my wife may not be as attracted to that.
> 
> I felt like I won a million bucks when I managed to "conquer" my wife (at the time, she was very popular and many guys were after her). But now that I *have* her (plus the million bucks  I don't feel like like much of a winner if she is not actually totally into me, as much as I am into *her*...So I think I may have played this game all wrong. Hard pursuits don't necessarily have to pay off in the way we imagine.


True. And this might be a way for life to keep you humble in the midst of all your success.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> To an extent yes, but it is actually odd. In the past when I would build up resentment I would get distant from her (hard not to since in general I am a very independent person, so the physical aspect really helps me maintain the emotional connection) . Funny enough, now that I am at "peace" with things I don't get that way, still trying to plan trips away and do things with her, but really just don't show much interest or effort in the physical side of things. I have a weekend away planned later next month. In the past we try to plan it so it doesn't fall during that time of the month. For the upcoming trip she commented that it might be bad timing and I responded that it didn't really matter to me. I wasn't trying to make a snide comment about it, I was actually being honest. I was just looking forward to getting away for a few days, been working a lot of hours, etc... so whether or not the trip fell on that time made no difference to me. She definitely seemed to be taken aback by this comment. During this time as well she keeps telling me she is having dreams that I am leaving her. Just kind of bizarre b/c if anything I have been just as attentive as usual, still trying to do stuff with her. Everything else in our marriage/family is fine (hectic, but nothing new there with 3 young kids). The only difference, I am no longer pursuing her physically like I used to, and I guess maybe subconsciously that is how she is processing it (almost like something must be up since he doesn't seem bothered about this like he used to).


It is very important that you explain to her that the change hasn't been because you no longer desired her.

Rather, it's because you found desiring her without reciprocation to be too emotionally damaging for you.

Tell her that your greatest concern is that you'll get used to this.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Yes, exact same lack of desire with the few partners I've had. Not much of a sample size though. I've never had desire for anyone. My ex-husband was a very handsome man. I could see that obviously but there was certainly nothing like I've read about on TAM as far as tremendous attraction goes. I don't know what that would be like.


Maybe you haven't met the "right" person yet? I have had ok-ish desire for some girls before my wife but *nothing* like with my wife. Sometimes it feels like having a porshe parked in your garage but not having the keys to it...(She's not a porn star or barbie doll or anything like that, I am just very attracted to her).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> True. And this might be a way for life to keep you humble in the midst of all your success.


Haha very true. Of course success means nothing without reciprocative love to me. It comes and goes. I decided a long time a go to make my family a priority in my life. Plus, it's human nature to crave for something you can't have and take for granted what we already have.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Far, thinking some more about the difference between explaining and defending . . .

If you are explaining, you are just telling why. You do not feel threatened, so no perceived need to justify. The tone is likely neutral.

If you are defending, you are likely telling why *and* claiming you are right/justified in whatever way. You feel threatened, like someone might tell you that you are wrong for what you did or how you feel. It is the self-justification that makes it defensive rather than just explanatory. Usually an animated or resentful tone.

Explanatory: I did not make dinner tonight because I did not feel like it.

Defensive: I did not make dinner because it's not fair that I have to make dinner every night and no one else ever does and I deserve a break and if I do not give it to myself, no one else ever will, darn it!

Either way, I don't think it is a good idea to get into these until the person you are talking to feels listened to and understood. And then be very cautious with using the defensive approach, if ever.

Jmo.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> As best as I recall, I believe @FrenchFry's solution was a result of her current SO's behavior (perhaps piled on top of prior experience).
> 
> What sucks for you is that you weren't responsible for any of the behavior that caused your wife to have this attitude.


Piled on for sure. 
@alexm 


> Interesting, thanks!
> 
> So, unless I read incorrectly, you were similarly free with your sex life at some point in your life?
> 
> If that's it, then did you feel shame or guilt because of it? Did you have a bad experience (or more than one)? Or did you start to feel men only wanted you for one thing?


I have a pretty high drive naturally. Men have done nothing but try to control it or manipulate it for their own purposes instead of sharing what should be an awesome thing. I was never "free," sexually but yes, this is how I felt and still do to a point. 

They don't like "no," even if no happens rarely. In fact, the more rarely "no" happens, the more outsized of a reaction there is. So, I feel like I have two choices. Don't say no and get manipulated or say no and deal with the fallout which could be any number of things.

I deal better with the fallout than the manipulation. I prefer a mental connection anyways and it hurts way more to be toyed with than to shut down. If I have sex on my terms a couple things happen--I will have a great time as opposed to a mediocre time or bad time and when I say so, it's because I have the mental (and really, physical) ability to be my own sexual self.

I don't think this applies to you or your situation at all. It's just how I operate. If I wasn't assaulted or in an abusive relationship or pressured by men to have bad and unfulfilling sex--if I said No and was a ***** more often I think I might operate differently.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe you haven't met the "right" person yet? I have had ok-ish desire for some girls before my wife but *nothing* like with my wife. Sometimes it feels like having a porshe parked in your garage but not having the keys to it...(She's not a porn star or barbie doll or anything like that, I am just very attracted to her).





inmyprime said:


> Haha very true. Of course success means nothing without reciprocative love to me. It comes and goes. I decided a long time a go to make my family a priority in my life. Plus, it's human nature to crave for something you can't have and take for granted what we already have.


Yes, I think these are both true.

Good description >> not having the keys to the Porsche.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course I get this part. But the point is that if you don't want to have sex with a homosexual man, you will still enjoy having sex with a heterosexual woman and a homosexual man will enjoy having sex with another man, if he doesn't have the desire to have sex with a woman. Meaning that the desire is there, it's just not finding the right outlet. So my constant doubts and insecurities often revolve around the fact that I imagine that it is not out of the question that my wife could have an entirely different sex drive with a more sexually compatible guy for her. I am just not _that_ guy and my wife doesn't have a problem. *I* could be the problem.
> I would be curious to know if @Openminded experienced the exact same lack of desire with all her partners or whether it varied in intensity?


I think this is what my husband thinks, too. And let me tell you - it crushes me. Absolutely crushes me, that he puts himself through so much misery with this line of thinking. That he doesn't trust that if I _really_ thought that there was someone else out there that I wanted to jump, that I wouldn't let him go and go find that person. I'm still here. I want to be here. I don't think the HD can understand how much anguish the LD holds knowing that they hurt their partner and knowing that they are always going to fail at that part of their marriage. I like to assume the best about people rather than the worst, and I think most people marry with good intentions. I married because I truly deeply love my husband. I want to make him happy. This is an area where I know I cannot really do that. It sucks. 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> It is very important that you explain to her that the change hasn't been because you no longer desired her.
> 
> Rather, it's because you found desiring her without reciprocation to be too emotionally damaging for you.
> 
> Tell her that your greatest concern is that you'll get used to this.


Agreed. That is why I always say that short term this solution works for me, but do understand long term it is not exactly ideal, whether it be me getting used to things like this. At some point we will talk about this again (and just to clarify, these are all things I have discussed with her in the past, things would get better to start but eventually drift back to the way they were). As well, I don't mean to be negative. There are a lot of good/positive things, and a lot of challenges as well trying to balance out our marriage with being parents/work (all the more reason why I feel more effort needs to be put in to us, just seems like I am the only one really pushing this, not just specific to the physical aspect).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed. That is why I always say that short term this solution works for me, but do understand long term it is not exactly ideal, whether it be me getting used to things like this. At some point we will talk about this again (and just to clarify, these are all things I have discussed with her in the past, things would get better to start but eventually drift back to the way they were). As well, I don't mean to be negative. There are a lot of good/positive things, and a lot of challenges as well trying to balance out our marriage with being parents/work (all the more reason why I feel more effort needs to be put in to us, just seems like I am the only one really pushing this, not just specific to the physical aspect).


As your little ones get older, things may get much better.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> As your little ones get older, things may get much better.


The frog in the boiling pot thought so, too.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Don't let it go too long, the menopause freight train is on the track. Might get better, might fall to ****


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

It is important to me that - you don't feel that I am picking on you or judging you. As that is not my intent. 

I am not convinced you properly value direct, clear and concise conversation. In an early thread of yours - it took me dozens of posts to infer that your real issue was that her rejection rate was staggeringly high. And then - when I pushed you to address THAT specific point with her - you seemed decidedly resistant to that approach. 






alexm said:


> Everything I've said in this thread, and probably more. She knows exactly how I feel about it all, from the walls she's built up over time (with others, as well), to trying to meet my needs by doing things she would want (and not what my actual needs are) to... everything else...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

At the risk of repeating myself, talking to her about her, ehem, choices is counterproductive. I might as well lecture my cat about the benefits of not scratching the furniture. She will either rationalize it to the Nth level, respond by pleading ignorance, or have a blowout. Or more likely, all three at once.

Every rejection will have a Six Sigma accurate explanation that's solid. It's that simple. Eventually you get tired of the rejection, accept the scraps, and all of a sudden you're 50 years old and it's all history.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> Were they stated as things you would *like* or as things that you need to have a fulfilling marriage?


Need, require, desire.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

FrenchFry said:


> Piled on for sure.
> 
> @alexm
> 
> ...


I do just want to make it clear that by "bad experiences" (re: my wife) I don't mean assault or abuse or even pressure, necessarily. I simply mean constant expectation or need for sex. Or realizing someone only wants sex with her, etc. Sadly typical of many men, and for somebody who is responsive desire, that may be quite offputting when it's clearly more about getting laid than it is about intimacy, etc. I just think that she's had one too many experiences like this, of not being valued for much other than a piece of ass, and this may be her way of controlling that.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kag123 said:


> I think this is what my husband thinks, too. And let me tell you - it crushes me. Absolutely crushes me, that he puts himself through so much misery with this line of thinking. That he doesn't trust that if I _really_ thought that there was someone else out there that I wanted to jump, that I wouldn't let him go and go find that person. I'm still here. I want to be here. I don't think the HD can understand how much anguish the LD holds knowing that they hurt their partner and knowing that they are always going to fail at that part of their marriage. I like to assume the best about people rather than the worst, and I think most people marry with good intentions. I married because I truly deeply love my husband. I want to make him happy. This is an area where I know I cannot really do that. It sucks.


Legit question, and not a trap - for folks that are LD like you and truly feel anguished over it, what is stopping you from, I don't want to say "faking" it, but from pushing yourself to initiate or have sex with your partner more frequently, or to their liking (and preferably yours, as well), or to simply provide oral sex once a week or something?

If you know what the issue is, and you're broken up about it, then why not act, instead of simply taking no action?

For many people on the opposite side of your fence, they may actually begin to feel valued, despite the desire for sex not being there for you. They'd at least know that you have the desire to make them happy, meet their needs, etc., no?

Yes, this sounds like duty sex, and it is in a way. But to me, actual duty sex is rolling ones eyes, saying "fine, make it quick", lying there, letting them do their thing, and rolling over. That's somebody who doesn't care, IMO.

Actually putting the effort in to meeting their needs, despite it not being yours, is not duty sex. Your desire for sexual interaction may not be there, but your desire to meet their needs absolutely would be.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Because, despite being LD, she still wants to be pursued. Funny, that.



EllisRedding said:


> To an extent yes, but it is actually odd. In the past when I would build up resentment I would get distant from her (hard not to since in general I am a very independent person, so the physical aspect really helps me maintain the emotional connection) . Funny enough, now that I am at "peace" with things I don't get that way, still trying to plan trips away and do things with her, but really just don't show much interest or effort in the physical side of things. I have a weekend away planned later next month. In the past we try to plan it so it doesn't fall during that time of the month. For the upcoming trip she commented that it might be bad timing and I responded that it didn't really matter to me. I wasn't trying to make a snide comment about it, I was actually being honest. I was just looking forward to getting away for a few days, been working a lot of hours, etc... so whether or not the trip fell on that time made no difference to me. She definitely seemed to be taken aback by this comment. During this time as well she keeps telling me she is having dreams that I am leaving her. Just kind of bizarre b/c if anything I have been just as attentive as usual, still trying to do stuff with her. Everything else in our marriage/family is fine (hectic, but nothing new there with 3 young kids). The only difference, I am no longer pursuing her physically like I used to, and I guess maybe subconsciously that is how she is processing it (almost like something must be up since he doesn't seem bothered about this like he used to).


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Need, require, desire.


Well, then you've done your part.

She either doesn't care all that much about your happiness or isn't taking you seriously. 

More talking won't accomplish anything.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

More talking means more laps for the rationalization hamster...


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

alexm said:


> I think you don't see cheating as often as you'd think because for most of us (men and women) who have LD/ND partners, it's not the _sex_ that's the real issue. I can say that's true in my case, anyway.
> 
> I truly do love my wife. I want to have regular sex with her, without schedules and strings and controlled by either of us. But I don't want to _get laid_.*It's not about sex*, it's about this connection that I'm missing with her, and nobody else. Every other way, we're intertwined almost perfectly - except this. And I don't WANT to have this connection with anybody but her.
> 
> ...


What is wrong if it is only about sex?

For me, it is about sex. There is an emotional bond that comes during and after, but the initial drive is purely sexual.

For my wife and for many women, this emotional bond can come with sex, but it also comes in many different ways. Intimate talks, cuddling, romantic walks to name a few. 

I would not be surprised, if you used your wife love language to emotionally connect with her, that your sexual schedule would see a drastic shift.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

To a long time successful couple, emotional connection is as simple as plugging in your phone to the charger. 

To couples struggling with even the very concept of what an emotional connection really is, or what does it get them, it's like plugging in your houseplants to the charger.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Some women might find this spiel incredibly annoying (my wife would). She's "practical". Whenever I touched her in this manner, she used to ask: "ok so where is this going?" Because it cannot "just happen" without it going anywhere. And even if it does go somewhere, who the **** cares.
> Sorry for rant.


I concur some might find it annoying, I can't please everyone.

That said I don't think being practical is the reason why your wife has responded as you describe.

Maintaining some ongoing sexual tension throughout the day-to-day, is very practical in application when wanting to share a high desire, high tempo sex life.

My wife is also practical, yet she responds well to what I described.


As to being "practical", my bilingual, atheist wife has a STEM (Applied Science) degree amongst other tertiary qualifications, is an INTJ personality type (I'm an ENTJ). She isn't a flake, has never suffered from depression or anxiety, is effective, pragmatic, decisive and is not charmed by vacillation either.

As a young woman she has had no hesitation in dumping male suitors, whenever they appeared weak, insecure, needy, and or were particularly emotional. She also rejected a number of marriage proposals as well, from guys who sans sex pulled that trigger from bended knee. Likewise as a practical measure my wife asked me out on a date (I was the first man she asked out), while she was in a sexual relationship with another man, because she thought I might not ask her out when she was interested.

She has also never batted an eyelid over moving house 8x through almost 18 years of marriage. Where we have lived in suburbia (yuck), inner city environs and on the edge of the outback as well. Likewise my wife got on with things, when I was sometimes away with the Army for weeks at a time, through to being frequently away sometimes for months at a time during our first 8 years together.

Plus excempting taking two years off for maternity leave (2 kids) and a few months off following a redundancy, she has always worked full time even when gaining her qualifications and subsequently developing them further.

While most of her full time professional career has been in supervisory and management roles. Inclusive of now being in her second government management role, with legislative responsibilities, a significant budget, lots of staff (both highly qualified and otherwise) across a number of roles at various sites. While she has also written policy documents, plus established and managed a number of significant projects. That have introduced infrastructure refurbishment and significant technological change as well.

She has also been able to secure a number of grants for her organisation, inclusive of getting the highest funding available through consecutive years (which is fairly rare in her field). While amongst other things she has also established a number of interagency initiatives, been invited to present her experience and approaches to fixing problems to her peers in other agencies, and is a member of a committee that grants scholarships for up and coming professionals in her field.

In the middle of all of that she has also helped to raise our two now teenage children. Who have both so far proven to be happy, fit, healthy and highly accomplished academically, while our daughter who is our youngest is also accomplished in the arts and sport.

My wife is also not particularly soppy, isn't into cutesy things and behaviours, doesn't like to cuddle much (she finds it boring after a while), and is wanton and raw sexually. Plus after sex she will either get up immediately to get on with her day (where we again start flirting and all the rest), or she will immediately go to sleep if it's late.


Except for the occasions when injury, illness and sometimes spending time away from each other for work has impinged upon us. Through close to 21 years my wife and I have always shared a tremendous high frequency non-vanilla sex life. That is in significant part kept on the boil, through the frequent application of building and maintaining explicit sexual tension.

So in my experience having a "practical" sexual partner, doesn't negate what my spiel described.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

alexm said:


> I truly do love my wife. I want to have regular sex with her, without schedules and strings and controlled by either of us. But I don't want to _get laid_. *It's not about sex,* it's about this connection that I'm missing with her, and nobody else. Every other way, we're intertwined almost perfectly - except this. And I don't WANT to have this connection with anybody but her.


If you want a better sex life, it should be about sex.



alexm said:


> I do just want to make it clear that by "bad experiences" (re: my wife) I don't mean assault or abuse or even pressure, necessarily. I simply mean constant expectation or need for sex. Or realizing someone only wants sex with her, etc. Sadly typical of many men, *and for somebody who is responsive desire*, that may be quite offputting when it's clearly more about getting laid than it is about intimacy, etc. I just think that she's had one too many experiences like this, of not being valued for much other than a piece of ass, and this may be her way of controlling that.


My wife is largely responsive in her desire for sex although she does initiate as well, as long as I pull the right levers she really wants it. Which is why maintaining some level of frequent sexual tension throughout our relationship has worked so well for both of us.

If I decided to step back from my wife sexually and not maintain our sexual tension, I'm pretty sure our sex life would devolve very quickly.

I still can't help but feel to some degree you remain conflict avoidant and are loathe to address a lot of this head on.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It would feel strange to me if my husband expected me to initiate sex. A man's initiation (and not taking any rejection personally) says *"virility" *to me.

_vi·ril·i·ty
vəˈrilədē/
noun
*(in a man) the quality of having strength, energy, and a strong sex drive; manliness.*
"aggression and virility were highly prized in soldiers"_

If he expected me to initiate, and were to be resentful and pouty if I did not, I would get a very opposite impression of him.

Not saying you are doing this, Alex, nor that your wife sees it the same way I do. Just offering it as food for thought.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> It would feel strange to me if my husband expected me to initiate sex. A man's initiation (and not taking any rejection personally) says *"virility" *to me.
> 
> _vi·ril·i·ty
> vəˈrilədē/
> ...


My one comment on this. I get that this is your POV and how you see it, and it is much in part based on your experience with your H. However, for many, expecting your SO to show interest/responsibility in maintaining one's sex life is not a gauge of "manliness". Likewise, there is an added complexity when you start factoring in rejection from your SO. These are things it sounds like you haven't had to deal with, and that is great, but also why some of the stuff I read just comes across as hollow


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Duguesclin said:


> I would not be surprised, if you used your wife love language to emotionally connect with her, that your sexual schedule would see a drastic shift.


I'm not sure if you haven't been paying attention Dug, but this is exactly what I do, and have always done.

I speak to her in her language, she speaks to me... not in my language, but in hers.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Because, despite being LD, she still wants to be pursued. Funny, that.


Ain't that the real kicker. To me, that is where the "control" aspect comes into play on the part of the LD (i.e. wants to be desired/pursued, doesn't want to or can't reciprocate, but also doesn't want you to look elsewhere)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> My one comment on this. I get that this is your POV and how you see it, and it is much in part based on your experience with your H. However, for many, expecting your SO to show interest/responsibility in maintaining one's sex life is not a gauge of "manliness". Likewise, there is an added complexity when you start factoring in rejection from your SO. These are things it sounds like you haven't had to deal with, and that is great, but also why some of the stuff I read just comes across as hollow


It is a little tricky to address this, because it brings two important areas into conflict: transparency and . . . reality.

I believe in transparency in marriage. I think it builds trust. I am also not sure we can ultimately be anything other than who we are.

At the same time, I have heard a lot of women over the years complain about their husbands being another kid to deal with. Not one woman I heard say that indicated she found it sexy or inspiring. It was more often than not just a drag on her.

That surely puts men in a tough spot: Should they 1) be as honest and needy with their wives as they might be with their mothers, or 2) avoid being just another demand on her and try to be her anchor instead? Because it looks pretty challenging to be both.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Ain't that the real kicker. To me, that is where the "control" aspect comes into play on the part of the LD (i.e. wants to be desired/pursued, doesn't want to or can't reciprocate, but also doesn't want you to look elsewhere)


Is it really that she wants to be pursued, though? Or is it more that that has been the norm, and change is unsettling (especially if she is not secure in your commitment to the marriage)?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> It would feel strange to me if my husband expected me to initiate sex. A man's initiation (and not taking any rejection personally) says *"virility" *to me.
> 
> _vi·ril·i·ty
> vəˈrilədē/
> ...


No, I do actually think she feels this way, to a certain degree. Maybe not quite as thought out as you've put it, but that basically the man is the one who is 'supposed' to initiate. I think she feels this way because this is the way it's always been for her (being LD and/or responsive desire), not so much that it shows virility or manliness.

Therein lies the conundrum, however. I believe this is what she's actually sick and tired of - quote/unquote "always being wanted for sex". She KNOWS I don't want her just for that, but ~20+ years of _feeling_ like that's the case (with others, I mean, we haven't been together that long), and old habits die hard, walls come up, etc.

She once said that to me several years ago - "I feel like all you want is sex". I looked at her ****-eyed, like she had two heads. Up to that point, we weren't having this 'scheduled' sex, and it's like something clicked in her (flashbacks, perhaps?) and a non-issue became an issue. She hasn't said it since, but it's been insinuated by her actions. And here we are.

But the conundrum is this, provided the above is true: the man is supposed to initiate (either because that's what she actually believes, prefers, or that's simply just always been the case and she doesn't know any other way). But when the man initiates, he's only after one thing. :scratchhead:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Is it really that she wants to be pursued, though? Or is it more that that has been the norm, and change is unsettling (especially if she is not secure in your commitment to the marriage)?


Not necessarily, especially when you consider the circumstances where the changes are initiated by her.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> It is a little tricky to address this, because it brings two important areas into conflict: transparency and . . . reality.
> 
> I believe in transparency in marriage. I think it builds trust. I am also not sure we can ultimately be anything other than who we are.
> 
> ...


In the same way you have heard women complain, I have heard men complain. Who is right, who knows? You only hear one side of the story, and in many cases the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> No, I do actually think she feels this way, to a certain degree. Maybe not quite as thought out as you've put it, but that basically the man is the one who is 'supposed' to initiate. I think she feels this way because this is the way it's always been for her (being LD and/or responsive desire), not so much that it shows virility or manliness.
> 
> Therein lies the conundrum, however. I believe this is what she's actually sick and tired of - quote/unquote "always being wanted for sex". She KNOWS I don't want her just for that, but ~20+ years of _feeling_ like that's the case (with others, I mean, we haven't been together that long), and old habits die hard, walls come up, etc.
> 
> ...


What you did the other day--cuddling, without expectation of sex--worked. You met her need while dispelling her fear. You made her feel safe while not placing any needy demands on her.

Sounds quite virile to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> In the same way you have heard women complain, I have heard men complain. Who is right, who knows? You only hear one side of the story, and in many cases the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


And that is the problem with equal marriage, at least in terms of imposed equality. I have no confidence in it, myself.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> And that is the problem with equal marriage, at least in terms of imposed equality. I have no confidence in it, myself.


Huh, my post you quoted has nothing to do about equality. My post was simply about only getting one side of the story which generally does not paint the full picture.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Not necessarily, especially when you consider the circumstances where the changes are initiated by her.


As in less sex?

Ellis, any attitude of victimhood in you is unlikely to create emotional safety in your wife. And that lessens emotional connection, which is likely to lessen her libido. 

Just sayin'.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Huh, my post you quoted has nothing to do about equality. My post was simply about only getting one side of the story which generally does not paint the full picture.


I think a lot of progress can be made by one side taking a leadership role. And women are usually responders.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> Ain't that the real kicker. To me, that is where the "control" aspect comes into play on the part of the LD (i.e. wants to be desired/pursued, doesn't want to or can't reciprocate, but also doesn't want you to look elsewhere)





jld said:


> Is it really that she wants to be pursued, though? Or is it more that that has been the norm, and change is unsettling (especially if she is not secure in your commitment to the marriage)?


Yes, in the case of my wife, she wants to be pursued. I think this is the case in most of these marriages with a similar dynamic.

It's absolutely about control. Not malicious intent control, but some sort of coping mechanism for something-or-other (I don't know, I'm not psychologist).

As we see SO often here, in marriages that share this dynamic, the LD person absolutely notices when their partner starts to back off. Sometimes immediately, sometimes over a period of time. My example over this past weekend is just one that I can point to in my own marriage.

On the rare occasion that I've actually rejected my wife (out of pure exhaustion, or other legit reasons, never out of spite) she's noticed and been visibly unhappy that I did so, regardless of the reason.

It's insecurity. We all have it (except, apparently, JLD and Dug). Even though it might stem from an area that contains little logic behind it. If my wife is LD and "doesn't care about sex" and can turn down or reject without feeling the slightest bit of sympathy or empathy, then why would she be upset if I turn her down?

So in a roundabout way, being desired sexually gives her security. Following through causes insecurity (he only wants me for this).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> As in less sex?
> 
> Ellis, any attitude of victimhood in you is unlikely to create emotional safety in your wife. And that lessens emotional connection, which is likely to lessen her libido.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Lol, I don't see myself as the victim, so don't know what you are "sayin", except that it fits in with your narrative.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Using sex to get the attention of someone who is drifting away is not at all the same thing as wanting to be desired sexually.

Indeed, it's the sex that's about control, not the lack of it.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> It is a little tricky to address this, because it brings two important areas into conflict: transparency and . . . reality.
> 
> I believe in transparency in marriage. I think it builds trust. I am also not sure we can ultimately be anything other than who we are.
> 
> ...


Not sure it's called transparency when one person isn't allowed any.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> What you did the other day--cuddling, without expectation of sex--worked. You met her need while dispelling her fear. You made her feel safe while not placing any needy demands on her.
> 
> Sounds quite virile to me.


I came back to bed that morning because I felt like it, and we had some time we could spend together, sans kids. I had no intentions of sex OR of catering to her non-sexual needs. I literally just felt like it, and the bed looked warm, and she was warm.

She had clearly -expected- me to initiate sex with her, and after lying there for a relatively long time with me not doing so, she got out of bed to brush her teeth and get dressed. I stayed in bed.

She clearly was agitated that I did not initiate sex with her, either that morning or the previous ("scheduled") night.

So was it actual sexual attraction that prompted her to bring this up and subsequently get back into bed and have sex with me? Or was it self-preservation - checking to see if I still desired her? Did I actually get her in the mood for sex by being "virile", or did my non-interest in her sexually trigger the response?

Genuine answer - I have no idea. And the reality is, I quite enjoyed it because it was much more organic than it usually is, so I don't actually care which of the two it was!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> So was it actual sexual attraction that prompted her to bring this up and subsequently get back into bed and have sex with me? Or was it self-preservation - checking to see if I still desired her? Did I actually get her in the mood for sex by being "virile", or did my non-interest in her sexually trigger the response?
> 
> Genuine answer - I have no idea. And the reality is, I quite enjoyed it because it was much more organic than it usually is, so I don't actually care which of the two it was!


That is a great question. Really, if things revert back after the novelty (challenge) wears off, you will have a better idea.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Ain't that the real kicker. To me, that is where the "control" aspect comes into play on the part of the LD (i.e. wants to be desired/pursued, doesn't want to or can't reciprocate, but also doesn't want you to look elsewhere)


If it is any consolation, my wife is the same way. When I stop pursuing her, she gets out of sorts.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Not sure it's called transparency when one person isn't allowed any.


QFT.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

alexm said:


> I came back to bed that morning because I felt like it, and we had some time we could spend together, sans kids. I had no intentions of sex OR of catering to her non-sexual needs. I literally just felt like it, and the bed looked warm, and she was warm.
> 
> She had clearly -expected- me to initiate sex with her, and after lying there for a relatively long time with me not doing so, she got out of bed to brush her teeth and get dressed. I stayed in bed.
> 
> ...


When you put it that way, it sounds like a **** test. And in a way, it is. She needed validation that you still desired her.

What would have been really interesting is if you would have gotten her all worked up, and then just simply smiled at her, winked, then got up and got dressed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> When you put it that way, it sounds like a **** test. And in a way, it is. She needed validation that you still desired her.
> 
> What would have been really interesting is if you would have gotten her all worked up, and then just simply smiled at her, winked, then got up and got dressed.


I don't think there was any testing going on. 

And I do not think introducing any would be wise.

Alex, I think you handled it perfectly.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Not sure it's called transparency when one person isn't allowed any.


He can certainly be transparent. But there are likely consequences.

I did not make up the rules of human nature, jade. I am just sharing my observances of them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I'm not sure if you haven't been paying attention Dug, but this is exactly what I do, and have always done.
> 
> I speak to her in her language, she speaks to me... not in my language, but in hers.


Not uncommon. Though I understand that may be small comfort.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> That is a great question. Really, if things revert back after the novelty (challenge) wears off, you will have a better idea.


Wears off? Guaranteed . 

It's a game, he essentially non-verbally pointed out something and she said to herself "we can't have this, I'll show him". Now she has an arrow in her quiver for the next discussion, the one example when it wasn't on Saturday night and he didn't initiate. 

I once told my wife she was 'just a tease', meant in a humorous way with a bit of a smile on my face due to some little habit she had gotten in to at the point of the goodnight kiss. Within the next week she all of a sudden initiated an early morning quickie very aggressively, outside the bedroom where discovery was a bit of a risk. Point 'proven', don't expect that to ever happen again :sleeping:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I came back to bed that morning because I felt like it, and we had some time we could spend together, sans kids. I had no intentions of sex OR of catering to her non-sexual needs. I literally just felt like it, and the bed looked warm, and she was warm.
> 
> She had clearly -expected- me to initiate sex with her, and after lying there for a relatively long time with me not doing so, she got out of bed to brush her teeth and get dressed. I stayed in bed.
> 
> ...


You could always ask her. Any time a man is not needy or reactive he shows at least some virility, at least imo.

Certainly agree that organic interaction beats inorganic, any time. There is no substitute for authenticity.

I don't think it is healthy or productive for you to think of her as trying to control you or sex or anything like that, Alex. That kind of thinking is likely to set up negativity, resentment, and a possible power struggle.

What would be healthier and more productive is to try to understand what fear or pain might be motivating her attitude and actions, and work to soothe those. That will build trust. And I do think you have been trying to do that.

Honestly, I think things really took an upturn Sunday morning. I am kind of surprised there is not more optimism in the thread.

Also, in response to a different post of yours . . . Dug and I certainly have our own insecurities. I have many more than he does. Probably neither of us has many in the marriage, though. That is pretty solid.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> Yes, in the case of my wife, she wants to be pursued. I think this is the case in most of these marriages with a similar dynamic.
> 
> It's absolutely about control. Not malicious intent control, but some sort of coping mechanism for something-or-other (I don't know, I'm not psychologist).
> 
> ...


This is learning the balance I was talking earlier. Once you understand the music you can master the tempo, but it may not wholly be a song of insecurity.



alexm said:


> I came back to bed that morning because I felt like it, and we had some time we could spend together, sans kids. I had no intentions of sex OR of catering to her non-sexual needs. I literally just felt like it, and the bed looked warm, and she was warm.
> 
> She had clearly -expected- me to initiate sex with her, and after lying there for a relatively long time with me not doing so, she got out of bed to brush her teeth and get dressed. I stayed in bed.
> 
> ...


I agree... ask her, no better way to know than to know! I still do not think you can define this into single actions or thoughts because each week brings the attraction layer in different orders, sometimes adding to, sometimes taking away.

The act of sex may be mostly mechanical in nature, but the emotional tie-in is anything but... sometimes these things are not problems to be solved but a truth of balance to accept.

I think you are on a great path the way that morning went... calm does work.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

:allhail:


wild jade said:


> Not sure it's called transparency when one person isn't allowed any.


Mic drop.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> But, now she's in a stable relationship so there's no need to discomfort herself to give her responsive desire a chance.
> 
> What's going to happen if she doesn't?
> 
> Obviously, nothing.


Actually, same thing as if you get complacent and never go to the gym. In that case, one day you get a heart attack or stroke. At which point you will wish you had spent more time at the gym.

If she stops having sex, decades later she wakes up and realizes her husband doesn't love her and is just staying out of habit or to avoid the financial hit. And then she realizes she is just as trapped as she thought he was.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I think this is what my husband thinks, too. And let me tell you - it crushes me. Absolutely crushes me, that he puts himself through so much misery with this line of thinking. That he doesn't trust that if I _really_ thought that there was someone else out there that I wanted to jump, that I wouldn't let him go and go find that person. I'm still here. I want to be here. I don't think the HD can understand how much anguish the LD holds knowing that they hurt their partner and knowing that they are always going to fail at that part of their marriage. I like to assume the best about people rather than the worst, and I think most people marry with good intentions. I married because I truly deeply love my husband. I want to make him happy. This is an area where I know I cannot really do that. It sucks.


 @kag123: Thanks for sharing such poignant and heartfelt emotions.

This is why I frequently tell LDs that they are fooling themselves if they think it will end up being a "win" for them to "trap" a HD. All too often it is the LD who finds themselves trapped.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> @kag123: Thanks for sharing such poignant and heartfelt emotions.
> 
> This is why I frequently tell LDs that they are fooling themselves if they think it will end up being a "win" for them to "trap" a HD. All too often it is the LD who finds themselves trapped.


Why do you think they are trying to "trap" one?

It almost sounds like there is paranoia regarding LDs. I thought kag and Openminded offered a counter perspective to some of the prevailing views.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I don't think I would tolerate the 'you only want me for sex' thing

And given that - most men hearing that - have a very poor sex life - well - it feels like gas lighting since it is so obviously untrue. 

But then - most of the guys with severely sub par sex lives believe the solution is to talk about their feelings. 

Which is half true. 

All feelings can be explained in 50 words max. Sorry guys - they can. Which is at most 30 seconds of talking. Which is the upper edge of the female attention span for an adult males feelings. I am not being sexist. They want to understand. But it is not a fun conversation for them - so get to the damn point. 

And the other half of the truth - is - prioritize yourself more. 

In a good marriage, you don't have to spend much time worrying about yourself - because your partner worries about/does stuff for you. 

In a unbalanced marriage - you need to focus more on yourself. Or feel taken advantage of. 





alexm said:


> Yes, in the case of my wife, she wants to be pursued. I think this is the case in most of these marriages with a similar dynamic.
> 
> It's absolutely about control. Not malicious intent control, but some sort of coping mechanism for something-or-other (I don't know, I'm not psychologist).
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

OK, maybe trap is too strong a word. It connotes some intent to cause the other person harm, and in most cases I think that intent is absent. But I think there is an element of knowing misrepresentation in most instances. So whatever word you want to use to describe it, the absence of transparency is at the core here. I think most LDs, if they were honest, would admit this.
@Openminded did. I give her huge kudos for that. She admitted that knew she feels zero desire for sex, she knew sex was required for the relationship with her ex to continue, she wanted the relationship to continue, so she provided sex even though she didn't want it for herself. I do not think she is an evil person. I hope she stays here. I think her point of view is desperately needed.

But the bottom line is that she mislead her ex. She pretended to more desire or more willingness to provide sex than she truly felt. And she hid this fact from him. Because she feared he would end the relationship if she were transparent.

And as I continue to argue to LDs, she got exactly the result that could be expected. Both of them eventually became unhappy. They were happier apart than together. As I tell every LD, there is a simple solution for this. Be honest with your partner before you get married. Tell them that you don't enjoy sex with them very much. Tell them that you intend to provide sex even though you don't desire it, because you understand that sex is important to them and you want to make them happy. Many many mismatches will be avoided because the HD will quite rightly recognize that this is a bad match and will end the relationship. Which is the best outcome FOR BOTH.

The tougher situation is the one @Buddy400 points out. Where the LD hits only after NRE wears off, after the kids arrive, etc. In that case, you can't avoid the mismatch with transparency because the mismatch doesn't arrive until after the couple is deeply intertwined. Transparency at that point doesn't eliminate the problem.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> I don't think I would tolerate the 'you only want me for sex' thing
> 
> And given that - most men hearing that - have a very poor sex life - well - it feels like gas lighting since it is so obviously untrue.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> Legit question, and not a trap - for folks that are LD like you and truly feel anguished over it, what is stopping you from, I don't want to say "faking" it, but from pushing yourself to initiate or have sex with your partner more frequently, or to their liking (and preferably yours, as well), or to simply provide oral sex once a week or something?
> 
> If you know what the issue is, and you're broken up about it, then why not act, instead of simply taking no action?
> 
> ...


My husband in particular places a very high value on knowing that I genuinely desire sex at that moment in order to actually want it himself. He considers your description above to be duty sex. Even if polite in its delivery. He doesn't want that. It doesn't "count" towards the check box of having his needs met. I must have an O every time or he feels awful after and makes a big deal over it, even though I've told him not to.

He really thinks if he was more _____ (fill in the blank here: in shape, did more chores, made more money, took me on more vacations, was a completely different person) that it would completely change my innate desire level. Despite me telling him otherwise. There is a point where you just can't convince the person what they don't want to believe. 

I've actually spent about 2 years now pursuing my sex drive with various doctors just desperately trying to find a way to make it increase. I have some health problems and take medications that complicate the matter. Have not found any solutions. I've even had doctors laugh in my face that I wanted to increase my sex drive. Crazy. 



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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It is very difficult for anyone to really understand how a person with a very different mental / emotional makeup feels. All you can do is listen to their words and accept what they say but not really experience it yourself. 

Its much broader than LD/HD, even just as far as sex, there is a whole range of interests. People who enjoy frequent sex may enjoy very different styles of sex. 

People should try very hard not to get into relationships with badly mismatched sexual desires / interests. If they end up there, then its very tricky to figure out what to do. Both being denied sex you want and providing sex you don't want are miserable. 

What do you think of the option of the HD person having sex outside the marriage? 




kag123 said:


> I think this is what my husband thinks, too. And let me tell you - it crushes me. Absolutely crushes me, that he puts himself through so much misery with this line of thinking. That he doesn't trust that if I _really_ thought that there was someone else out there that I wanted to jump, that I wouldn't let him go and go find that person. I'm still here. I want to be here. I don't think the HD can understand how much anguish the LD holds knowing that they hurt their partner and knowing that they are always going to fail at that part of their marriage. I like to assume the best about people rather than the worst, and I think most people marry with good intentions. I married because I truly deeply love my husband. I want to make him happy. This is an area where I know I cannot really do that. It sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> @kag123: Thanks for sharing such poignant and heartfelt emotions.
> 
> This is why I frequently tell LDs that they are fooling themselves if they think it will end up being a "win" for them to "trap" a HD. All too often it is the LD who finds themselves trapped.


I try really hard not to take offense to anyone who implies that I would "trap" someone into a relationship! I think you meant well with your comment- but I do hope you don't think that we all go around scheming for some poor schmuck to take advantage of. Relationships are so much work. It would be easier for me to remain single. I don't need to be married. 

Also - I hope you (and others) see the irony here of this line of thinking. Alex said he suspects his wife puts her guard up about sex because she's been preyed on this way before - felt that someone used sex to take advantage of her. I think this is a common experience for women at least at some point in their life. I know I have experienced it many times. So the LD could feel that the HD is "trapping" them by pretending to want all of the other aspects of marriage, when they really just want to have free reign over your body for their pleasure. 

For the record - I do not feel that way. But do you see how this could go both ways? 

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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> So the LD could feel that the HD is "trapping" them by pretending to want all of the other aspects of marriage, when they really just want to have free reign over your body for their pleasure.
> 
> For the record - I do not feel that way. But do you see how this could go both ways?


Yes, of course. All life is risk. Yes, there are lying scheming HDs who only want one thing but pretend they want the rest. They are reprehensible.

I wanted both. The trappings and free reign over her body. I made no secret of that. She wanted the trappings and pretended to enjoy sharing her body with me. Stupid move on my side was having kids with her before clearing up the "why did sex stop on our wedding night?" question. My bad. I own it. And I am still with her. Kids shouldn't pay for my stupidity.

No way to 100% avoid people who are willing to be liars or who will hide the truth to get what they want. But it is entirely possible to avoid being the one who lies or hides the truth. Look, I get why it is attractive to hide or shade. I am doing it every day of my life. That is why I tell everyone I am now living on the dark side and deserve whatever I am getting or not getting. I am not saying I don't understand the urge or temptation to shade. I am saying that in many many cases it turns out to be bad for the LD in the long run. For just the reason you have discovered.

I would say the same thing to a HD who lies to marry someone for whom they don't feel a strong emotional connection but they want to have lots of sex with them. Short term gain. Injures your soul. Not worth it in the long run.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> OK, maybe trap is too strong a word. It connotes some intent to cause the other person harm, and in most cases I think that intent is absent. But I think there is an element of knowing misrepresentation in most instances. So whatever word you want to use to describe it, the absence of transparency is at the core here. I think most LDs, if they were honest, would admit this.
> 
> @Openminded did. I give her huge kudos for that. She admitted that knew she feels zero desire for sex, she knew sex was required for the relationship with her ex to continue, she wanted the relationship to continue, so she provided sex even though she didn't want it for herself. I do not think she is an evil person. I hope she stays here. I think her point of view is desperately needed.
> 
> ...


I can only speak for myself. 

Honesty and transparency is something I value highly. 

I've always been very honest in my relationships, sometimes too much so. 

My H and I dated for 4 years before marriage. We were well past the honeymoon period when we married. I had two kids, and got slammed by PPD and other medical problems. That changed everything. 

There was not any way I could have predicted that I'd end up where I am now with my health problems. Nothing life threatening, but still things that cause a lot of daily suffering. 

I agree with you that no one should purposely mislead someone else into marriage. That's horrible. A really low thing to do. 

But when you take those vows "in sickness and in health, in good times and bad" - you are taking them without having a crystal ball that lays out for you exactly what your spouses future will hold. You took them and meant them at that time. 

We will not have an open marriage, but my H knows he is free to divorce me at any time and I will not fight him on it. I always tell him - the door is always open, feel free to walk out of it anytime. That sounds awful, but I do feel guilt over having him saddled to me when I cannot help my condition. I don't think I could have done anything differently to predict this would happen. I surely don't want him to be unhappy and feel like he's stuck with me. 

I'm a very independent person - probably too independent, to be honest - and I'd be fine on my own. When you love someone you want them to be happy. There are certain facets of his happiness that I cannot provide to him. I cannot decide for him what he wants to do to fix it - he could decide one day to leave. I would understand. 

For me personally, I will stay with my H until the day he decides to leave me, if that day ever comes. Barring anything truly awful such as cheating or abuse. I don't "need" anything from him - I just love him and love having him around. I think the fact that I don't actually "need" him is a big sticking point for him. If he gets sick or incapacitated, I'm here to take care of him and stay with him. I think he feels an obligation to do the same, because I'm "sick" and he took those vows. 

It's hard because each person has different deal breakers that would cause them to end their marriage despite the vows that they took. My deal breaker threshold happens to be very very high. I *think* his is too, but I'm always waiting around for that shoe to drop one day. Sometimes I think he stays because he knows I would never leave myself, and that makes him feel guilty for throwing away that loyalty. 


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You've probably tried, but will he accept the idea that you enjoy pleasing him, even if you don't physically enjoy it much yourself. That combined with something equivalent he can do for you that you do enjoy. 

I assume that when you offer to do sexual things for him you do it with a positive attitude of "I'd be happy to do XYZ", not something like "Well, I guess I could do XYZ if you really want....". 

Your libido is probably not something you can change. At the same time I understand how he feels like he is failing because he can't please you in bed. 







kag123 said:


> My husband in particular places a very high value on knowing that I genuinely desire sex at that moment in order to actually want it himself. He considers your description above to be duty sex. Even if polite in its delivery. He doesn't want that. It doesn't "count" towards the check box of having his needs met. I must have an O every time or he feels awful after and makes a big deal over it, even though I've told him not to.
> 
> He really thinks if he was more _____ (fill in the blank here: in shape, did more chores, made more money, took me on more vacations, was a completely different person) that it would completely change my innate desire level. Despite me telling him otherwise. There is a point where you just can't convince the person what they don't want to believe.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@kag123: I did not mean to suggest that YOU trapped your husband.

I feel for you. Very much. Lately, my wife feels as you do. She had cancer and a double mastectomy. She tells me all the time "you did not sign up for this". I tell her "yes, I did".

But remember, in this marriage at this point in time I am the evil one. Yes, she was dishonest before and early in our marriage. But she eventually came clean. She does not enjoy sex with me or get anything out of it. Took me a long time to accept that and stop fighting it. Now we don't have any sex at all. But I have not forgiven her. I am the one keeping her trapped. By being pleasant and supportive. Even though I don't feel about her the way I used to. I justify my behavior by saying "she started it" but I realize how juvenile that is. I am doing exactly what I accuse LDs of doing. Shading the truth so my partner won't be motivated to leave. And I am getting exactly what I warn LDs they will get. A tortured existence. That is why I argue so strongly not to do it.

If you were honest with your H before marriage and the LD arose as a result of medical circumstances after you had been married a while, then I agree that you did not mislead your H. And I agree with him that this is exactly what "in sickness and in health" entails. I admire him for staying. I admire you for the depth of your feeling for him.

I am not trying to tar all LDs. Plenty have ample justification for not desiring their current partner.

I am only addressing my tirade toward those LDs who know before marriage that they do not enjoy sex with their partner, or desire it often, but who pretend they do. THAT to me is evil and abhorrent behavior. No more evil than lying about one's intention "to get into their pants". But no less.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> My husband in particular places a very high value on knowing that I genuinely desire sex at that moment in order to actually want it himself. He considers your description above to be duty sex. Even if polite in its delivery. He doesn't want that. It doesn't "count" towards the check box of having his needs met. I must have an O every time or he feels awful after and makes a big deal over it, even though I've told him not to.
> 
> He really thinks if he was more _____ (fill in the blank here: in shape, did more chores, made more money, took me on more vacations, was a completely different person) that it would completely change my innate desire level. Despite me telling him otherwise. There is a point where you just can't convince the person what they don't want to believe.
> 
> I've actually spent about 2 years now pursuing my sex drive with various doctors just desperately trying to find a way to make it increase. I have some health problems and take medications that complicate the matter. Have not found any solutions. I've even had doctors laugh in my face that I wanted to increase my sex drive. Crazy.


Since you've explained it to him, this is on your husband.

Maybe it's a consequence of the "men and women are exactly the same in every way, including sex" meme you hear so much of these days.. One gender has large quantities of testosterone coursing through their systems with the result that most have a spontaneous desire for sex. The other gender doesn't. Therefore it seems obvious that there are often going to be substantial differences in sexual response between a man and a woman. 

Your husband requires that you have the exact same feelings about sex that he does. If you don't, that must mean he's doing something wrong.

That would be like my wife refusing to spend an afternoon browsing shops in a cute downtown unless she's certain that I'm getting just as much out of it as she is. If I don't enjoy this as much as she does, does that mean that I'm not getting anything out of the experience? Not at all. I'm happy to go because I know how much she enjoys this, I love her and I care greatly about her happiness. She would be denying me the pleasure of making her happy. What's the point of that?


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

kag123 said:


> *My husband in particular places a very high value on knowing that I genuinely desire sex at that moment in order to actually want it himself. He considers your description above to be duty sex. Even if polite in its delivery. *He doesn't want that. It doesn't "count" towards the check box of having his needs met. I must have an O every time or he feels awful after and makes a big deal over it, even though I've told him not to.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Mine considers it lying. Like, big time marriage ending lying. Also, I made the mistake of doing the porn act thing and then explaining that it was for him and that's not really like, how I act. Huge mistake.



> but will he accept the idea that you enjoy pleasing him, even if you don't physically enjoy it much yourself. That combined with something equivalent he can do for you that you do enjoy.


No. So, for me it's all or none, right? Which, is actually okay. I don't mind it being that way and I get more satisfaction out of it than duty sex, even nice duty sex.

BUT my drive is lower. The compromise in my case is "controlling" sex--I won't do it unless I'm actually going to be into it. Which is why I sympathize somewhat with @alexm's wife, I feel like hey I've done what you asked, and it's still kind of just okay. The win is hard to come by sometimes.

Like @kag123, I'm also fully prepared for my husband to get sick of it and leave.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> @kag123: I did not mean to suggest that YOU trapped your husband.
> 
> I feel for you. Very much. Lately, my wife feels as you do. She had cancer and a double mastectomy. She tells me all the time "you did not sign up for this". I tell her "yes, I did".
> 
> ...


Thank you for providing your own story. I definitely don't have it as bad as your wife - my problems are a walk in the park compared to cancer. 

And we aren't totally sex less, just at a lower frequency than what he wants. My natural desire right now is about once every 2 weeks. He does not initiate- ever - so our sex life is entirely up to me. He waits for me for those once every 2 week occasions and then happily participates. If I don't start it, we would never have sex. 

Maybe the fact that he's still getting some - not absolutely zero - keeps him around. I don't know. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

kag123 said:


> And we aren't totally sex less, just at a lower frequency than what he wants. My natural desire right now is about once every 2 weeks. He does not initiate- ever - so our sex life is entirely up to me.* He waits for me for those once every 2 week occasions and then happily participates. If I don't start it, we would never have sex.
> *
> Maybe the fact that he's still getting some - not absolutely zero - keeps him around. I don't know.


Do you prefer it this way?

My husband still initiates, but we have more of a schedule than I think he would like because he's pretty much figured out when I will be into it and when I won't. I love it personally because the pressure is pretty much gone. So has the spontaneous part somewhat but I can't figure how to accommodate both.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Do you prefer it this way?
> 
> My husband still initiates, but we have more of a schedule than I think he would like because he's pretty much figured out when I will be into it and when I won't. I love it personally because the pressure is pretty much gone. So has the spontaneous part somewhat but I can't figure how to accommodate both.


Honestly, no - but I know why he does it and I don't blame him. My physical condition is really unpredictable day to day, so it's hard for him to be able to tell when I would be receptive and when I'm not. I suffer from migraines and lupus like symptoms where I can be fine and then all of a sudden I'm not, within the span of less than an hour. And "not fine" is a polite way of saying Im on the fetal position on the floor praying for death to take me. So I think he feels it's safer to just never burden me with requests for sex until I come to him - because at least then he knows I'm feeling up to it. In his shoes I assume I'd do the same thing. There has only been once in the last 4 years or so that I can remember him initiating. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> My husband in particular places a very high value on knowing that I genuinely desire sex at that moment in order to actually want it himself. He considers your description above to be duty sex. Even if polite in its delivery. He doesn't want that. It doesn't "count" towards the check box of having his needs met. I must have an O every time or he feels awful after and makes a big deal over it, even though I've told him not to.
> 
> He really thinks if he was more _____ (fill in the blank here: in shape, did more chores, made more money, took me on more vacations, was a completely different person) that it would completely change my innate desire level. Despite me telling him otherwise. There is a point where you just can't convince the person what they don't want to believe.
> 
> ...


The other perspective is always very interesting. I wonder how much of this is real and how much is paranoia on our parts (HDs). As in, I genuinely cannot tell whether my wife desires to have sex with me every 2-3 days or whether she does it because she feels that I need it. I am beginning to wonder whether it matters anymore.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

kag123 said:


> There has only been once in the last 4 years or so that I can remember him initiating.


Wow, that is crazy tbh


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> Do you prefer it this way?
> 
> My husband still initiates, but we have more of a schedule than I think he would like because he's pretty much figured out when I will be into it and when I won't. I love it personally because the pressure is pretty much gone. So has the spontaneous part somewhat but I can't figure how to accommodate both.


Short T/J

How are you doin' FF. Been awhile. Hope all is OK. Sure miss the banter between you, AnonPink, Faithful Wife, myself and others.

Hope everything is going good for you!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> I've actually spent about 2 years now pursuing my sex drive with various doctors just desperately trying to find a way to make it increase. I have some health problems and take medications that complicate the matter. Have not found any solutions. I've even had doctors laugh in my face that I wanted to increase my sex drive. Crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


But this is the million dollar question I don't think I will ever get an answer: *how do you know your sex drive wouldn't be any different if you weren't with someone else?*

I suppose this is an academic question. Because even if the answer is "yes" what is one supposed to do with this information. However a "no", would kind of be a relief for me...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The "deception" is not always intentional. It could be that some culture or religion or family or skeleton is at play. Unless you do a full background check you really can't know. 

If in your culture it's normal to cease sex at 50 then that will never come out....


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I try really hard not to take offense to anyone who implies that I would "trap" someone into a relationship! I think you meant well with your comment- but I do hope you don't think that we all go around scheming for some poor schmuck to take advantage of. Relationships are so much work. It would be easier for me to remain single. I don't need to be married.
> 
> Also - I hope you (and others) see the irony here of this line of thinking. Alex said he suspects his wife puts her guard up about sex because she's been preyed on this way before - felt that someone used sex to take advantage of her. I think this is a common experience for women at least at some point in their life. I know I have experienced it many times. So the LD could feel that the HD is "trapping" them by pretending to want all of the other aspects of marriage, when they really just want to have free reign over your body for their pleasure.
> 
> ...


I agree. 

My ex-husband knew I wasn't remotely enthusiastic about sex before we got married. But we were very young and thought it would improve. But it didn't. So to compensate for that I said "yes" very many more times than I said "no". But that wasn't enough because he wanted substantial desire along with it and that was something I lack. I couldn't want him the way he wanted me. And that's what made our sex life difficult. It was never about what I was willing to do (which was whatever he wanted). It was the fact that I couldn't match him in the desire department.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> But this is the million dollar question I don't think I will ever get an answer: *how do you know your sex drive wouldn't be any different if you weren't with someone else?*
> 
> I suppose this is an academic question. Because even if the answer is "yes" what is one supposed to do with this information. However a "no", would kind of be a relief for me...


Almost every woman's sex drive would be higher in a new relationship than it is in their current LTR.

I'm pretty sure that's the case for men as well.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

BradWesley2 said:


> Short T/J
> 
> How are you doin' FF. Been awhile. Hope all is OK. Sure miss the banter between you, AnonPink, Faithful Wife, myself and others.
> 
> Hope everything is going good for you!


Heehee! I'm good, life is great but busy! Snuck up on me. I love the banter too which is why I can't help but pop by.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I agree.
> 
> My ex-husband knew I wasn't remotely enthusiastic about sex before we got married. But we were very young and thought it would improve. But it didn't. So to compensate for that I said "yes" very many more times than I said "no". But that wasn't enough because he wanted substantial desire along with it and that was something I lack. I couldn't want him the way he wanted me. And that's what made our sex life difficult. It was never about what I was willing to do (which was whatever he wanted). It was the fact that I couldn't match him in the desire department.


Did he ever say what your desire signified to him? 

Was he looking for some sort of validation from you?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> Almost every woman's sex drive would be higher in a new relationship than it is in their current LTR.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's the case for men as well.


That's not the way I meant it. If, in a parallel universe, Kag123 was married to another guy altogether (and everything else was equal), how can she be sure she would not have a higher level of sexual desire?
I don't see how this issue can be approached independently of your partner. An LD person may not be necessarily LD with another person! I know because I experienced different levels of attraction for different girls aeons ago.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Almost every woman's sex drive would be higher in a new relationship than it is in their current LTR.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's the case for men as well.


Agreed. 

Any NEW relationship would get those new relationship hormones going again - that's just human nature. 

But I have absolutely no reason to suspect that it would be any different after those initial hormones wore off. More importantly- I just don't WANT to be with anyone else, so why does this even matter? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Any NEW relationship would get those new relationship hormones going again - that's just human nature.
> 
> ...


I guess in your case, it may not matter. For me, I guess it's male insecurity talking but if I knew that there is a potential mate who could increase my wife's sexual experience/desire by 50-100% (even if she didn't know herself that it might), I would perhaps *at least think* whether I am in the way of her true happiness. I guess these thoughts are always present because for me it is very hard to relate to a "pure" LD (since I am not that nor can I know with certainty whether this actually exists) and that therefore, I must somehow be figuring as part of the equation in her overall sex drive.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

To elaborate on this: like Alex's wife, once my wife gets going, the transformation can be incredible: she is very into it. So my conclusion is that she must have a drive that is working very well to get those kinds of sensations out of the experience. But since she doesn't have any idea about the concept of spontaneous desire (also like Alex's wife, I believe) because when she initiates, it feels 'forced' and unnatural*, it makes me wonder to what extent it is ME who she desires, if at all.

* I don't disregard the possibility that it may be my problem of perceiving this that way

She will say that the way she enjoys it withe ME etc, doesn't it show me that it MUST be me? I cannot be sure, because I have a very strong spontaneous desire and I can be 100% sure that it is my wife who triggers it nor have I any problems showing it to her, all day long, if I let myself. I don't feel it is the same with her at all.

On the other hand, i know that she doesn't masturbate when I am not around (she maybe did it a handful of times in her life). So maybe the drive just works differently and I am mistaking it for something more sinister, like lack of sexual attraction.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

jld said:


> Did he ever say what your desire signified to him?
> 
> Was he looking for some sort of validation from you?


I'm not sure what my desire (or lack thereof) really signified to him (one of our many problems was an inability to communicate effectively). Despite all his success, he was a very insecure man and maybe he did need validation that way even though I validated him in every other way. Maybe that way was the only thing that actually mattered to him. 

I would say he felt cheated that he had a wife who he thought was the hottest thing ever (all men think that about their wives, I'm guessing) but yet something really major was wrong with her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

This is incredibly valuable content. 





kag123 said:


> My husband in particular places a very high value on knowing that I genuinely desire sex at that moment in order to actually want it himself. He considers your description above to be duty sex. Even if polite in its delivery. He doesn't want that. It doesn't "count" towards the check box of having his needs met. I must have an O every time or he feels awful after and makes a big deal over it, even though I've told him not to.
> 
> He really thinks if he was more _____ (fill in the blank here: in shape, did more chores, made more money, took me on more vacations, was a completely different person) that it would completely change my innate desire level. Despite me telling him otherwise. There is a point where you just can't convince the person what they don't want to believe.
> 
> ...


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

kag123 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Any NEW relationship would get those new relationship hormones going again - that's just human nature.
> 
> ...


I think my W would be similar to you. Outside of the expected uptick at the start of any new relationship, I doubt it would be any different. Maybe a better way to put though, take raising a family out of the equation (or send them away every weekend lol) and in that case it would most likely be different (so it isn't a matter of being with a different person as it is the situation itself).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> To elaborate on this: like Alex's wife, once my wife gets going, the transformation can be incredible: she is very into it. So my conclusion is that she must have a drive that is working very well to get those kinds of sensations out of the experience. But since she doesn't have any idea about the concept of spontaneous desire (also like Alex's wife, I believe) because when she initiates, it feels 'forced' and unnatural*, it makes me wonder to what extent it is ME who she desires, if at all.
> 
> * I don't disregard the possibility that it may be my problem of perceiving this that way
> 
> ...


Why is lack of sexual attraction "sinister"?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Why is lack of sexual attraction "sinister"?




Perhaps wrong word. But to me, lack of sexual attraction towards your partner is a valid reason, perhaps even a moral obligation to your spouse and yourself, not to be together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> I don't think I would tolerate the 'you only want me for sex' thing
> 
> And given that - most men hearing that - have a very poor sex life - well - it feels like gas lighting since it is so obviously untrue.


Like I said - she said it once. There's a reason it was only said once.

When my wife has a valid point about something, I listen. When she pulls something like that out of her ass, I shut that crap down quick.

At the end of the day, I do not believe she thinks that one bit. She may have for a short while back then. However, what I do believe is that's it's still in her 'muscle memory', if you will. If I knew how to remove that automatic reaction from her psyche, I wouldn't be here!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

alexm said:


> Like I said - she said it once. There's a reason it was only said once.
> 
> When my wife has a valid point about something, I listen. When she pulls something like that out of her ass, I shut that crap down quick.
> 
> At the end of the day, I do not believe she thinks that one bit. She may have for a short while back then. However, what I do believe is that's it's still in her 'muscle memory', if you will. If I knew how to remove that automatic reaction from her psyche, I wouldn't be here!


Seems to me the proper response to this should have been something akin to this, with your best Cheshire Cat grin:

"What was that? I couldn't hear you. Take off your clothes. I hear you more clearly when you are naked."

Not that I would expect her to do it, but when my wife periodically makes ridiculous statements, I sometimes take them and run with them to a completely illogical conclusion, because, well, the initial statement was just silly.

She normally laughs and calls me an *******.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Interesting. My husband has never accused me of only wanting him for sex. I wonder why 

He also thinks I have to O every.single.time which is incredibly frustrating for me. If I want to O, I will. If I don't I won't. Sometimes it's elusive and I feel pressured into having one just because if I don't he obsesses over it. And to complicate matters, he doesn't EVER last more than 5 minutes. So he uses his fingers. The same old same old. Ad nauseum.

As for talking it out, what are you supposed to do with someone to whom you say "I really want to work with you to solve our problems in the bedroom", and whose response is to freak out because you just called him a rotten lousy piece of **** lover????

Oh, and we did NOT have sex last weekend. And he hasn't said a WORD about it.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> For me, I guess it's male insecurity talking but if I knew that there is a potential mate who could increase my wife's sexual experience/desire by 50-100% (even if she didn't know herself that it might), I would perhaps *at least think* whether I am in the way of her true happiness.


You are part of the way there. When you get all the way there, you will ENJOY being in the way of her true happiness. Just as she has stood in the way of yours.

The ways of the Dark Side can be very tempting, padawan.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

I don't believe this is a big enough problem for you to actually do anything about it. 

If I'm wrong - tell me something you have done differently with A2 based on advice you got here on TAM. 





alexm said:


> Like I said - she said it once. There's a reason it was only said once.
> 
> When my wife has a valid point about something, I listen. When she pulls something like that out of her ass, I shut that crap down quick.
> 
> At the end of the day, I do not believe she thinks that one bit. She may have for a short while back then. However, what I do believe is that's it's still in her 'muscle memory', if you will. If I knew how to remove that automatic reaction from her psyche, I wouldn't be here!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> To elaborate on this: like Alex's wife, once my wife gets going, the transformation can be incredible: she is very into it. So my conclusion is that she must have a drive that is working very well to get those kinds of sensations out of the experience. But since she doesn't have any idea about the concept of spontaneous desire (also like Alex's wife, I believe) because when she initiates, it feels 'forced' and unnatural*, it makes me wonder to what extent it is ME who she desires, if at all.
> 
> * I don't disregard the possibility that it may be my problem of perceiving this that way
> 
> ...


You're a man. You have spontaneous desire.

Your wife is a woman. She has responsive desire. This is very typical for women once the NRE has worn off.

These are generalizations. Not true in every situation.

The fact that your wife's sexual desire is different than yours is because:

1) You're a man and she's a woman.

2) You're you and she isn't.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> More importantly- I just don't WANT to be with anyone else, so why does this even matter?


Very true.

There might be a man who my wife would have more sexual desire for.

But, she's doesn't want to have sex with anyone but me.

So why would it even matter?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Like I said - she said it once. There's a reason it was only said once.
> 
> When my wife has a valid point about something, I listen. When she pulls something like that out of her ass, *I shut that crap down quick.*
> 
> At the end of the day, I do not believe she thinks that one bit. She may have for a short while back then. However, what I do believe is that's it's still in her 'muscle memory', if you will. If I knew how to remove that automatic reaction from her psyche, I wouldn't be here!


What does the bolded mean?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> You're a man. You have spontaneous desire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do women not have the ability to want to jump their husbands' bones and show it, once in a while?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> What does the bolded mean?




A gentle kiss, with a fist 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Do women not have the ability to want to jump their husbands' bones and show it, once in a while?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure, I can think of three or four examples.
.
.
.
.
.
In the last ten years.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Do women not have the ability to want to jump their husbands' bones and show it, once in a while?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure.

But if my husband ever expected it, and were whiny and sullen if I did not do it, it would be unlikely to happen again. Sex might not happen for a long time, period.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> A gentle kiss, with a fist
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Do women not have the ability to want to jump their husbands' bones and show it, once in a while?


Not to the degree that men would prefer.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Seems to me the proper response to this should have been something akin to this, with your best Cheshire Cat grin:
> 
> "What was that? I couldn't hear you. Take off your clothes. I hear you more clearly when you are naked."
> 
> ...


We do this too, frequently, and I like it. It's a great way to de-escalate the situation and take the anger out quickly. I usually quickly concede to him when he says something witty to me in reply to a fighting statement. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Very true.
> 
> There might be a man who my wife would have more sexual desire for.
> 
> ...


Right. You're getting it. All of this comparison stuff is a happiness killer. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Interesting. My husband has never accused me of only wanting him for sex. I wonder why
> 
> He also thinks I have to O every.single.time which is incredibly frustrating for me. If I want to O, I will. If I don't I won't. Sometimes it's elusive and I feel pressured into having one just because if I don't he obsesses over it. And to complicate matters, he doesn't EVER last more than 5 minutes. So he uses his fingers. The same old same old. Ad nauseum.
> 
> ...


Hope: I have been living in a similar situation with my H, where I must O every time or its a reflection on him. It is so much pressure. The only way I can actually make sure I'm going to have one is if I let the desire build for awhile before I go to him for sex. That means I need a good two weeks in between sex in order to get to the point where I'm feeling spontaneous desire and ready to track him down. Sometimes it takes longer than two weeks. It's just how I'm wired I guess, with these meds I take that dampen my libido, and everything else going on. 

Sidetracking here: Growing up I started my sex life believing that the purpose of sex was to please the man (from my peers, terrible relationships, locker room talk, and porn). I believed that for women it was a performance that you put on for his benefit. That some women found it pleasurable, and I did too mostly, but wouldn't dare break the act to ask for any guy to do something differently to me than what they initiated on their own. Usually that meant enduring a lot of porn sex. And not getting much out of it. But I thought that's just what sex was! I had no other frame of reference. I knew girls who claimed they could O from sex and to me it was all just a mystery. I just assumed I was broken because it didn't come naturally to me. And I always went into sex feeling a TON of pressure to make it a grand performance. I wanted to be remembered as his best. 

Having a husband who now places so much emphasis on my O sometimes brings back bad memories of my "performing" days. I know his intentions are noble though. When we started dating I was mature enough to decide going in that this time would be different and I wasn't going to put on an elaborate performance, and I wanted to be with someone who would ask ME what I liked and do things for ME. I found that guy in my H - only maybe a little on the extreme side.  

I've also had similarly frustrating conversations with him where he immediately shuts down and all he hears is how awful he is, when that is NOT what I was trying to say at all. I can't talk mechanics with him without it becoming a sore topic really fast and causing hurt feelings. 

It has gotten better with time. Honestly - the medication has helped as a scapegoat for this a bit. It really DOES have an effect on my drive and my capacity to O, so I'm not lying to him when I say that. But it's easy to talk to him candidly about sex when we can point to an outside factor causing problems (the meds, instead of him heaping the blame on himself).

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Do women not have the ability to want to jump their husbands' bones and show it, once in a while?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure, there are lots of women who do but my guess is that there are lots of women who don't. 

Women like me may be scarce on TAM but they aren't IRL.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Having a husband who now places so much emphasis on my O sometimes brings back bad memories of my "performing" days. I know his intentions are noble though.


I consider passing on the knowledge to other men that putting too much pressure on a woman to have an orgasm every time can be burdensome to her as one of my primary contributions to humanity.

But, then again, I've read quite a few posts here from women implying that if you don't make sure your partner always has an orgasm every time, you're a lousy lover.

Mixed signals.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

They are mixed because they are coming from different people. I'm sure there are women who don't enjoy sex unless they O. There are also women who do enjoy sex even if they don't O. 






Buddy400 said:


> I consider passing on the knowledge to other men that putting too much pressure on a woman to have an orgasm every time can be burdensome to her as one of my primary contributions to humanity.
> 
> But, then again, I've read quite a few posts here from women implying that if you don't make sure your partner always has an orgasm every time, you're a lousy lover.
> 
> Mixed signals.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Communication about sex is really difficult. Saying what you really want can sound selfish, and if its at all unusual make your partner think you are a pervert. Offering sexual favors can be perceived as an offer to suffer, rather than a desire to please. Saying you don't care about an O can be seen as saying "you are a terrible love, so don't bother". Asking a partner to do something different can be taken as criticism.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

uhtred said:


> They are mixed because they are coming from different people. I'm sure there are women who don't enjoy sex unless they O. There are also women who do enjoy sex even if they don't O.


I sometimes don't enjoy sex even when I DO O because it's been such a pain the ****ing ass to HAVE an O.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I sometimes don't enjoy sex even when I DO O because it's been such a pain the ****ing ass to HAVE an O.


Been there, but now I don't even initiate unless I know it's going to be quick and easy for me. I don't have patience for that level of frustration anymore. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Communication about sex is really difficult. Saying what you really want can sound selfish, and if its at all unusual make your partner think you are a pervert. Offering sexual favors can be perceived as an offer to suffer, rather than a desire to please. Saying you don't care about an O can be seen as saying "you are a terrible love, so don't bother". Asking a partner to do something different can be taken as criticism.


It's almost as if people have a lot of hang ups about sex :surprise:


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Been there, but now I don't even initiate unless I know it's going to be quick and easy for me. I don't have patience for that level of frustration anymore.


Ya, me too pretty much. I can't even remember the last time I initiated.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> Very true.
> 
> There might be a man who my wife would have more sexual desire for.
> 
> ...


Because one day she might meet that person face to face and suddenly something will awaken in her that she previously never experienced with you. 
Will you stop or encourage her? 
Of course it matters, look around you (or just over on CWI).

We give those labels to "LD" spouses as a way to make ourselves feel better when they don't actually have or show as much desire for us. I am generalising of course but the fact that they have O's or "perform like porn stars" on demand does not automatically mean that we fill that gap perfectly for them, as far as their wish for desire goes.

That obviously doesn't apply to all spouses where this mis-match exists. However, a lot of them will rationalise with their heads one thing (like insisting that they don't want anyone else) when their body will be telling them something different and not all of them may be able to connect the dots what it _actually_ means. I am just speculating and I have no way of knowing this for a fact obviously.

The reason it matters is that if my wife was *actually* LD, it would require a totally different approach than if *I* was the reason why my wife was LD.

What's there not to understand?


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I consider passing on the knowledge to other men that putting too much pressure on a woman to have an orgasm every time can be burdensome to her as one of my primary contributions to humanity.
> 
> But, then again, I've read quite a few posts here from women implying that if you don't make sure your partner always has an orgasm every time, you're a lousy lover.
> 
> Mixed signals.


I attribute that range of opinions to critical differences among:
A) GGG guy who is giving and considerate of a woman's pleasure, as opposed to 
B) Selfish/insensitive guy who is using her as a mere masturbatory sleeve/live porn show & never cares if she gets off, and 
C) controlling/insecure guy who insists on dictating how & when she will enjoy herself by making her O a pass/fail proxy for each and every encounter, and 
D) people-pleaser/submissive guy who's so "focused on her" that he fails to appreciate her need to be "taken" and understand that his own "selfish" ardor is a required ingredient in her enjoyment.

These guys all need to hear different feedback...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Communication about sex is really difficult. Saying what you really want can sound selfish, and if its at all unusual make your partner think you are a pervert. Offering sexual favors can be perceived as an offer to suffer, rather than a desire to please. Saying you don't care about an O can be seen as saying "you are a terrible love, so don't bother". Asking a partner to do something different can be taken as criticism.


Any communication about sex is a catch22 for men: a JLD will see any request as being "whiny and sullen" and "Sex might not happen for a long time, period" so what's the point of even bringing it up?
Just rape them, that's what a "real man" is supposed to do  
(that's a bad joke, in case it wasn't clear; I would never have sex against their will with anyone. Unless they wouldn't give me sex voluntarily


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Any communication about sex is a catch22 for men: a JLD will see any request as being "whiny and sullen" and "Sex might not happen for a long time, period" so what's the point of even bringing it up?
> Just rape them, that's what a "real man" is supposed to do
> (that's a bad joke, in case it wasn't clear; I would never have sex against their will with anyone. Unless they wouldn't give me sex voluntarily


I don't think rape or domestic violence is funny. And neither is anything a confident man would engage in.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I don't think rape or domestic violence is funny. And neither is anything a confident man would engage in.


I know. I said it was a bad joke. By "rape" I don't mean rape of course. For a man, talking about sex or asking for it is basically pretty much impossible, without coming across the wrong way. On the other hand, many women love it when the guy "takes what he wants" (but then get offended when the guy jokes about it).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I know. I said it was a bad joke. By "rape" I don't mean rape of course. For a man, talking about sex or asking for it is basically pretty much impossible, without coming across the wrong way. On the other hand, many women love it when the guy "takes what he wants" (but then get offended when the guy jokes about it).


I think "taking what he wants" probably means different things to different people.

My husband does not ask me if I want to have sex. And he certainly does not wait for me to get it started. 

He just starts admiring my body, or massaging me, or pulling me close. Usually I am talking about something, and he is giving empathetic responses along with his caresses. Pretty soon we are . . . engaged.

Is that "taking what he wants"? Well, maybe. But there is certainly consent involved. And no violence.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Do women not have the ability to want to jump their husbands' bones and show it, once in a while?


Yes, some of us do. There are women who are spontaneous desire like myself. I am high drive, always have been, would prefer to have sex at least once per day.

But I could still end up partnered with a man who at one time was sexually attractive to me, but if he lost my respect, became physically unattractive to me, became mean or abusive to me or others...then I would lose my attraction for HIM but I would still be HD and horny all the time, as those two features are just part of who I am and they do not waver depending on who I am with (being horny all the time and HD is still there when I am single and not having sex with anyone).

For this reason, I have learned how to be pretty sure about a man and my sexual attraction to him before I begin a sexual relationship with him. Although as I said, I don't have a crystal ball and if he permanently turns into a jerk later, POOF, there goes my attraction to him. So far I have picked well, as far as long term sexual attraction for men I've been partnered with.

There are far more women like me than most people at TAM suppose. But that's just the nature of this selective sample of people.

One thing that many of you HD men with LD wives may not consider, is that the pressure you would feel from being with a woman like me may not be something you enjoy. Every man I've been with has felt pressure to live up to my huge sexual desires and constant need for more fun, more sex, more variety, more new stuff, more more more. Being with an insatiable horn bunny like me is not always going to be a pleasant experience like you might imagine. Because when you've had your fun and you want to be all cuddly or fall off to sleep, I'm still awake thinking about what fun I want to have the next time we have sex....which is hopefully within 3 hours or so. 

The only complaint I've ever gotten from male partners was exactly that: They feared they would never be enough for me and I would eventually tire of them, cheat on them, or just lose interest or fall out of love.

And the fact is...I can't really deny that this may happen. So when they voice complaints like this, I typically just say "yep, better keep on your toes, honey". >


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I think "taking what he wants" probably means different things to different people.
> 
> My husband does not ask me if I want to have sex. And he certainly does not wait for me to get it started.
> 
> ...


Have you pretended *not* to give consent? My wife seems to like it for some reason I still don't understand but I play along (before anyone jumps in: no, the police does *not* disagree with my version of the events 

Yes, any type of violence is a terrible thing...unless the other person enjoys it.

edit: What if I am the one suffering doing violent things that my wife might want? is there a name for it? Reversed rape?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, some of us do. There are women who are spontaneous desire like myself. I am high drive, always have been, would prefer to have sex at least once per day.


Sounds amazing. Can my wife order whatever it is you are having?



Faithful Wife said:


> But I could still end up partnered with a man who at one time was sexually attractive to me, but if he lost my respect, became physically unattractive to me, became mean or abusive to me or others...then I would lose my attraction for HIM but I would still be HD and horny all the time, as those two features are just part of who I am and they do not waver depending on who I am with (being horny all the time and HD is still there when I am single and not having sex with anyone).


Seems like respect and attraction go hand in hand for some women.



Faithful Wife said:


> For this reason, I have learned how to be pretty sure about a man and my sexual attraction to him before I begin a sexual relationship with him. Although as I said, I don't have a crystal ball and if he permanently turns into a jerk later, POOF, there goes my attraction to him. So far I have picked well, as far as long term sexual attraction for men I've been partnered with.
> 
> There are far more women like me than most people at TAM suppose. But that's just the nature of this selective sample of people.


How do you know this?



Faithful Wife said:


> One thing that many of you HD men with LD wives may not consider, is that the pressure you would feel from being with a woman like me may not be something you enjoy. Every man I've been with has felt pressure to live up to my huge sexual desires and constant need for more fun, more sex, more variety, more new stuff, more more more. Being with an insatiable horn bunny like me is not always going to be a pleasant experience like you might imagine. Because when you've had your fun and you want to be all cuddly or fall off to sleep, I'm still awake thinking about what fun I want to have the next time we have sex....which is hopefully within 3 hours or so.
> 
> The only complaint I've ever gotten from male partners was exactly that: They feared they would never be enough for me and I would eventually tire of them, cheat on them, or just lose interest or fall out of love.
> 
> And the fact is...I can't really deny that this may happen. So when they voice complaints like this, I typically just say "yep, better keep on your toes, honey". >


I guess some men are wired to feel insecure no matter what.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sounds like an important scientific experiment - do men enjoy being with an attractive, passionate woman with insatiable sexual desire. 

I'll volunteer for the experiment as long as I'm not in the "control" group.

Actually long ago I was with a woman like that - it was really good. (well, OK, taking a break for sleep is a good idea. 




Faithful Wife said:


> snip
> 
> One thing that many of you HD men with LD wives may not consider, is that the pressure you would feel from being with a woman like me may not be something you enjoy. Every man I've been with has felt pressure to live up to my huge sexual desires and constant need for more fun, more sex, more variety, more new stuff, more more more. Being with an insatiable horn bunny like me is not always going to be a pleasant experience like you might imagine. Because when you've had your fun and you want to be all cuddly or fall off to sleep, I'm still awake thinking about what fun I want to have the next time we have sex....which is hopefully within 3 hours or so.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, some of us do. There are women who are spontaneous desire like myself. I am high drive, always have been, would prefer to have sex at least once per day.
> 
> But I could still end up partnered with a man who at one time was sexually attractive to me, but if he lost my respect, became physically unattractive to me, became mean or abusive to me or others...then I would lose my attraction for HIM but I would still be HD and horny all the time, as those two features are just part of who I am and they do not waver depending on who I am with (being horny all the time and HD is still there when I am single and not having sex with anyone).
> 
> ...


Have you ever been with a man more HD than you are?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Pretend non-consent is a great game - as long as its done carefully - some equivalent of a safe word. Otherwise you really can get into a bad situation if signals are misinterpreted.

Someone who wants to be "forced" without any sort of safety is a very dangerous partner. No one should ever be put in the position of needing to decide if a "no" is real, or meant to be ignored. 





inmyprime said:


> Have you pretended *not* to give consent? My wife seems to like it for some reason I still don't understand but I play along (before anyone jumps in: no, the police does *not* disagree with my version of the events
> 
> Yes, any type of violence is a terrible thing...unless the other person enjoys it.
> 
> edit: What if I am the one suffering doing violent things that my wife might want? is there a name for it? Reversed rape?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> Have you ever been with a man more HD than you are?


Nope, not even close.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Nope, not even close.




May you someday have that experience. And then tell us about it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> May you someday have that experience. And then tell us about it.


They always say they are up to the task. They say they want sex "all the time". They say they are "like a machine, can go over and over". They say they can pound me for an hour straight.

Yet...not one of them has ever had the chance to try out what they are saying they can do (ie: they have never been with a woman like me), so why they even say they are capable without being tested, I have no idea. Other than the obvious: they are hoping to get in bed with me and find out.

I've learned not to listen to these words as it is a very rare man who even knows how much sex he could have and how often, because most of them have simply never been able to test it. They also don't know what it is like to feel the pressure of a woman like me who not only wants it so much, but I also require a high amount of quality every single time. Hey, I give as good as I get (or better usually) so I'm not asking for anything I can't deliver.

My current boyfriend is the closest I've ever gotten to being with a man with "almost" as much of a sex drive as I have. When we were first together he was like "oh man, I've hit the jackpot, finally a woman who likes and wants sex as much as I do!" But within a few weeks of us being sexual, his tone changed to "wow, I can't believe how much pressure I feel to even come close to keeping up with you", and more recently he says "I feel obligated to bang your lights out tonight but I'm afraid I might be too tired to really give you all you need so its making me nervous".

Sigh. Story of my life. :laugh:

I'm so used to it though that it doesn't really bother me. I just get a good chuckle when I hear men "bragging" about their huge sex drive. I always know (but rarely say anything) that this man has no idea what it is like to be with a woman like me, and he most likely would feel inadequate (as my lover) rather than superior (to other men in general).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Sounds like an important scientific experiment - *do men enjoy being with an attractive*, passionate woman with insatiable sexual desire.
> 
> I'll volunteer for the experiment as long as I'm not in the "control" group.
> 
> Actually long ago I was with a woman like that - it was really good. (well, OK, taking a break for sleep is a good idea.


I think you'd have to change the parameters to do men enjoy being *in a long term relationship* with an attractive, passionate, insatiable woman. Because most any man can live up to the challenge once or twice or even for a few weeks. Most don't make it beyond that before they start in with the "oh no, I'm afraid I'll never be enough for you" crap.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I guess some men are wired to feel insecure no matter what.


I don't think so. Most men have never encountered someone like me before, so when they do encounter it and realize they may never be "enough" for me, they are faced with information they never considered before.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> They always say they are up to the task. They say they want sex "all the time". They say they are "like a machine, can go over and over". They say they can pound me for an hour straight.
> 
> Yet...not one of them has ever had the chance to try out what they are saying they can do (ie: they have never been with a woman like me), so why they even say they are capable without being tested, I have no idea. Other than the obvious: they are hoping to get in bed with me and find out.
> 
> ...


Hmmm...there's something about some of your posts that sounds...made up? Or maybe they are designed to get a reaction from people who don't know better.

It's really not that difficult to **** for hours or days sometimes, especially if you are attracted to someone. The first two years were like this with my wife. We would not get out of bed for days.
Giving somebody enough of emotional support and connection in a relationship: that's an entirely different matter and much more of a challenge to give a steady supply of, than satisfying somebody's high sexual appetite. 

Many HD men don't "brag" about being HD. It's actually a bit of an affliction when they can't find a hole to fill, so to speak. I would rather take a pill to make this go away so that I am not a slave to my desire for my wife 24/7 (and so that she stops using it to her advantage, if she felt like it).


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> They always say they are up to the task. They say they want sex "all the time". They say they are "like a machine, can go over and over". They say they can pound me for an hour straight.
> 
> Yet...not one of them has ever had the chance to try out what they are saying they can do (ie: they have never been with a woman like me), so why they even say they are capable without being tested, I have no idea. Other than the obvious: they are hoping to get in bed with me and find out.
> 
> ...


When I first met my husband, he thought he'd hit the jackpot. But he admitted pretty early on that he was nervous he wouldn't be able to keep up with me ....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

IMO the way to deal with an HD woman is the same the LD woman deals with her HD male spouse: give it to them on YOUR own terms and on YOUR own rhythm and let them complain on the forums that nobody can keep up with them :wink2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Gee, I hope no one is feeling intimidated or anything by the sex goddesses we have on this thread . . .


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Gee, I hope no one is feeling intimidated or anything by the sex goddesses we have on this thread . . .


Not the made up ones, no. the real ones are too busy having sex


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Not the made up ones, no. the real ones are too busy having sex


Oh, these gals are genuine. And forces to be reckoned with.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Oh, these gals are genuine. And forces to be reckoned with.


You have seen them "in action" personally? :wink2:

I guess I just don't get what's so difficult about sustaining an erection. Sustaining a long-term relationship or marriage seems somewhat more impressive to me because actual human interaction and emotional connection is involved and tested through difficult times.

What drives the need to accentuate the nymphomania by talking about men in a condescending manner like that? I guess it's cute.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> You have seen them "in action" personally? :wink2:
> 
> I guess I just don't get what's so difficult about sustaining an erection. Sustaining a long-term relationship or marriage seems somewhat more impressive to me because actual human interaction and emotional connection is involved and tested through difficult times.
> 
> What drives the need to accentuate the nymphomania by talking about men in a condescending manner like that? I guess it's cute.


We've all seen them in action right here on TAM. Not too many people are going to take on FW, in particular, in any area.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> We've all seen them in action right here on TAM. Not too many people are going to take on FW, in particular, in any area.


How do you have sex to prove your stamina on TAM??? Is it happening right now without me noticing?! :surprise:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> How do you have sex to prove your stamina on TAM??? Is it happening right now without me noticing?! :surprise:


Pretty sure there is nothing FW does not know about sex, inmyprime. She may be the #1 TAM sex authority.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Pretty sure there is nothing FW does not know about sex, inmyprime. She may be the #1 TAM sex authority.


Really? Ok then


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Gee, I hope no one is feeling intimidated or anything by the sex goddesses we have on this thread . . .


Intimidated, no. 

Perfectly willing to admit she's probably right about not keeping up these days. 20 years ago would have been an interesting challenge. "HD" as used here is generally a relative thing anyway.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Intimidated, no.
> 
> Perfectly willing to admit she's probably right about not keeping up these days. 20 years ago would have been an interesting challenge. *"HD" as used here is generally a relative thing anyway*.


I would agree. "LD" probably is, too.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Higher or Lower. Then there is None


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Hmmm...there's something about some of your posts that sounds...made up? Or maybe they are designed to get a reaction from people who don't know better.
> 
> It's really not that difficult to **** for hours or days sometimes, especially if you are attracted to someone. The first two years were like this with my wife. We would not get out of bed for days.
> Giving somebody enough of emotional support and connection in a relationship: that's an entirely different matter and much more of a challenge to give a steady supply of, than satisfying somebody's high sexual appetite.
> ...


I'm sorry if my posts sound made up or too "preachy" or something. The reason for this is that I do sort of work my agenda in my online posts, part of which is to advocate for the better understanding between men and women of how sexuality can work, and then ultimately, how it can work for *you*. I promote sex positive ideas in general, but the specific thing I'm promoting on this thread is giving myself as an example of what most men at TAM seem to believe doesn't exist. I have often felt exactly as you do in your last paragraph. When I was much younger, I used to pray for a pill that would kill my libido so that I would not be tortured by it constantly.

Maybe HD men don't brag to you about being HD, but they certainly do brag about it to HD women, such as myself. But please understand, I am like, bring it on, whatchoo got, mister? I like hearing a man go into bragging mode, to see if he really has any swagger. I am referring to men I'm considering dating or considering being sexual with, not just any random man. Though I do love reading men's swagger here at TAM when I see it authentically happen. I have seen a good amount of swagger in your posts. 

You said: "It's really not that difficult to **** for hours or days sometimes, especially if you are attracted to someone."

Actually, the way I want it done, yes it is difficult. Its not always circus sex, but he's got to be ready for it if we have sex, in case we go there. We come to the bedroom like we are going to an aikido one on one workout. We are prepared for a gentle, beautiful type of battle, culminating in hearts beating just as fast as when running. Not every time....in fact maybe less than half the time. But still, it has to be there.

And the rest about the whole relationship and then still maintaining the sex stuff...yes, this is totally true and I'm not saying it is easy nor that most people would even want to have what I would ideally want to have. People have different strengths and give different ways to their relationships. However I will say that even through the worst of times with my long term partners, I never lost my drive. Just as most any HD man will never essentially lose his drive, even if his body won't cooperate as it did when he was younger. I'm advocating the idea here that HD women such as myself and several other women at TAM are not as rare as the TAM crowd thinks they are. This is good information to have, because it is hopeful and more positive than the "women don't want sex" message. It may not directly help anyone here to hear about my experiences because no one can use my experiences to help their own situation. So I'm just "bragging", I guess, if you want to look at it that way. But to me I'm offering a perspective that is genuine and hopeful. 

I struggle when I read what you say about your wife, because I can only imagine that you two just simply feel differently about sex...you are more emotional and introspective about it than she is. You are trying to find self awareness and trying to lead her to find it, too. She is resisting because she doesn't necessarily want to become self aware at this time. So when I read your posts about her as you try to figure her out, I always just want to say "you will have to stop spending that energy trying to figure HER out, and just devote it all to figuring you out". But that's pretty much true of every situation on TAM that has problems. Including my own, past and present!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> IMO the way to deal with an HD woman is the same the LD woman deals with her HD male spouse: give it to them on YOUR own terms and on YOUR own rhythm and let them complain on the forums that nobody can keep up with them :wink2:


That's pretty much what my ex-h did. And it was fine. I always wanted more frequency, but he set his limit and stuck to it. (The LD partner usually sets the limit tends to be true). However, no one could ever call him LD and in no way was I lacking sex, ever. So that's why it was fine. I learned long ago that I can't impose what I'd like on any lover (IOW, my ideals are unrealistic for most people). But I can let them know what my ideal would be, and we can find a medium. 

My ex-h had great self awareness of exactly what he needed, and then gave me a little more than that, with love. I respected him and his body's needs, which were for very high quality but not as much quantity as I wanted. I did what I could to promote his body's health so that he could give me that little bit more. I did whine about wanting sex more often once in awhile, but he would basically pat my head and say "sorry honey, deal". And I knew I was being silly because as I said, he was giving me so much that I was a fool to have been asking for "more". Just because I feel ravenous all the time, doesn't mean I'm actually starving...I had to soothe all of that down and eventually I was very successful at it. He used to tease me for being so "****ty" and was always good natured about it. He loved that part of me. He knew he fulfilled me in ways other than frequency and we had a great groove. He was not insecure about it at all. We knew we loved each other and wanted each other. The frequency set by him ended up working just fine for me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry for the t/j @alexm 

My thoughts on your sitch...are the same as they always have been. I think your W is a little bit on the autism spectrum, and you are far more introspective (like @inmyprime ) and it is this difference between you and her that is kind of driving you a bit mad. But since you can't think like she does and she can't think like you do, you will not find the place you are seeking within her. I don't think it is there, just because that place is within you...that place where you want a more connected and free flowing type of sexual affection and intimacy...doesn't mean she has it, too.

I think this is why she identifies as asexual. She recognizes that everyone else is motivated differently by sex than she is. Her feelings around sex are very flat, but that doesn't mean incapable of pleasure and lots of O's. She has that part, but it seems mostly in-the-moment pleasure driven and not emotional or heartfelt. She cannot connect the two, which is typical of some people on the spectrum (even while others can go the opposite direction and become completely enmeshed in another person and lose their identity).

I don't think she can change, but I do think with some loving understanding, you could get her to just give you a little more. She might have to schedule it, drag herself through it, whatever...at first. What if you make it a sort of house rule that she become more flirty, touchy, and affectionate during the week? If you can make some kind of playful soft-dom/sub game out of it? Kind of like when you grouch at kids really LOUD to go to bed or take out the garbage, but you are also smiling and laughing so they know you are just pretending to be a loud grumpy grouch for effect.  It gets them moving with a laugh on their lips, right? I'm thinking something that fun and innocent in nature.

Asking her to change at all or help you out probably isn't going to yield you anything. But reading a lot about aspie's and others on the spectrum and their sexuality will probably give you hints and clues that will make sense to you. I don't think she needs your active listening, because she honestly doesn't want or need to talk about this stuff. If she has other unaddressed needs or things to say, I would trust that you'd help her open up and say them. But from reading your previous posts, it seems she doesn't try to talk like that or address things. It is mostly you wanting to address things.

Similarly to inmyprime in my post above, I just think this is pointless because she isn't interested in becoming more self aware, even though you want her to so that you can understand her. And in a way, you are correct that you will not be able to understand her until she is more self aware (this is true for all of us. If we aren't self aware, we cannot make our partner aware of what we want and need and how to get there). So your only recourse is to focus the energy on yourself and learn and learn and learn all you can about yourself. Eventually you'll come to an answer that is basically "wow, I am so deep and go even deeper the more I know about me". For each of us, it really is just about us anyway. Your life and your thoughts and beliefs are the only thing you will ever have any control over, and they are the things that can either make you happy or miserable. We have to complete our own self awareness processes before we worry about whether anyone else has done theirs or not, then we will be much happier and much better able to really understand our own motivations and priorities.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> 
> I don't believe this is a big enough problem for you to actually do anything about it.
> 
> If I'm wrong - tell me something you have done differently with A2 based on advice you got here on TAM.


I would say this entire thread was borne out of me taking advice many posters gave me here (far too long ago..) - to stop making a big deal out of it and just let it be.

So I did, and I am. And, extremely small sample size aside, it worked. I'll keep posting in here with any updates.

I know most of the skeptics and downers will wait around until it fails miserably! A couple of them have already come through here with their 'predictions' :grin2:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> What does the bolded mean?


When she says something (like "you only want me for sex", that one time) I tell her she's wrong and, in that case, anyway, tell her exactly why.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> I sometimes don't enjoy sex even when I DO O because it's been such a pain the ****ing ass to HAVE an O.


Hope, do you O quicker or easier or better on your own? Or do you feel similar pressure?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> When she says something (like "you only want me for sex", that one time) I tell her she's wrong and, in that case, anyway, tell her exactly why.


Oh, I see. The way it was phrased earlier seemed concerning. Thanks for clarifying.

Did you consider, instead of immediately refuting her, just asking why she felt that way?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> We've all seen them in action right here on TAM. Not too many people are going to take on FW, in particular, in any area.


I did, and lost, and now we're friends (I think?) and I have the utmost respect for her. She's a pretty bad-ass woman!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> Oh, I see. The way it was phrased earlier seemed concerning. Thanks for clarifying.


Lol! I'm not that guy. And if I was, I'd be on the losing end of that battle!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> I did, and lost, and now we're friends (I think?) and I have the utmost respect for her. She's a pretty bad-ass woman!


You've always been one of my favorites @alexm even if we went sparring too hard once or twice (probably more me than you)....you are a good man and a deep thinker. My favorite combo.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Do women not have the ability to want to jump their husbands' bones and show it, once in a while?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why ask the question, if you aren't interested in the answer?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> I would say this entire thread was borne out of me taking advice many posters gave me here (far too long ago..) - to stop making a big deal out of it and just let it be.
> 
> So I did, and I am. And, extremely small sample size aside, it worked. I'll keep posting in here with any updates.
> 
> I know most of the skeptics and downers will wait around until it fails miserably! A couple of them have already come through here with their 'predictions' :grin2:


One episode does not make a pattern. And wishful thinking often breeds overthinking .... in the effort to stay blind to what is staring us in the face.

Not trying to be a downer, or pretend I have some sort of inside track Just calling it as I see it, and genuinely hope I'm wrong.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

A long time ago in a distant corner of the threadverse @jld smacked me in that Alpha Mom style of hers for using the phrase bat **** crazy to describe some of M2's behaviors. After my head stopped ringing I considered her feedback. 

I am going to try to paraphrase her feedback as best I can, because I found it so very helpful: 

Calling behavior that you don't like and certainly don't understand - crazy - is as unhelpful as it is unkind. 

For a long time I sat quietly running through the vast library of tapes in my head. I was looking for patterns and gradually I found them. More than half of all of M2's aggressive and painful (for me as the recipient) conduct came from the same place. Fear of a loss of control or being left out. 

We have always had a highly synchronized life. The sentence finishing, the full body laughing, the endless instances of - I was just about to say that or I was just thinking about that. The telepathy-lite thing that works so well - that we eventually agreed not to violate each other's brain space with it sans invitation. 

When it's working it is close to pure joy. 

So then - why do we have conflict - and why was that conflict - historically so painful when it happened? 

I have a defined set of phobias - so here goes:
- Heights (mild for me, moderate by proxy - meaning if I am near the edge of the cliff I feel anxious if YOU are at the same distance to the edge - I am WAY WAY more anxious)
- Winged stingers: bees, wasps and hornets (moderate - my job to kill them when they get in the house - but their presence elevates my vitals WAY beyond the actual risk of harm as I am not allergic)
- M2's disapproval (mild, used to be moderate to high - back when I knew less than I know now)

By themselves, phobias have no polarity. No good or bad. How one handles them, whole other story. 

M2 has a few distinct but related phobias:
- Losing perceived control (more on this below)
- FOMO (I laughed when this became a meme - she has always had this)
- Water (mild to moderate depending on how rough the water is)

The easy one first. FOMO. We were meeting her family in Colorado for a summer mountain vacation. A few months before the trip I mentioned there were nearby river trips. Rafting and kayaking. She firmly said: I am NOT doing that, don't like water sports. I said that was fine I would see if other family members wanted to go. That conversation repeated a couple more times in the lead up to the trip. I applied zero pressure - she firmly repeated ,her stance.

My brother in law and I rafted on day two and had a great time. That night at dinner he and I were talking about the trip at dinner - M2 was with us - and he asks if I want to go kayaking the next day. Love kayaks. Always have. Even more than rafting. I immediately agreed. Then the most amazing thing happened. M2 asked me: Is it ok if I come? In a tone of voice that made it clear she wasn't sure if I would say yes. (Which really surprised me)

I did a quick double take and said: That would be fantastic. I would love for you to come. I didn't ask because I honestly thought you didn't want to. She shrugged - said she did and I said great and the three of us went kayaking. Perfect weather, perfect water conditions. Mild rapids. She was the only one of the 3 of us who didn't tip over - we all laughed about that later. 

I told her several times how glad I was she joined us. And gently teased her afterwards that maybe her fear of being left out, eclipsed her fear of the water. 

So - now I will (finally) get to the punchline. If M2 plans to do ANYTHING without me, she asks my permission. If this were a reality tv show and you were watching us - and saw her ask if it was ok for her to: go to happy hour with co-workers, or have Saturday lunch with a friend, you would think I was the overbearing - controlling husband. Thing is, I'm not. Full stop. Never have been. On my mothers grave - I have never said anything but: have a great time 
to these requests. So - almost 30 years into this adventure called marriage - why does she ask me that question? 

And that my friend - is exactly the right question. Why does M2 ask me a question that I have always answered with an immediate and unconditional YES. And that, if you consider my tone and body language - I am conveying an additional message which is: You do not have to ask my permission to do stuff without me. 

Thing is, patterned behavior has a reason. And in this case a perfectly rational one. M2 isn't doing this for ME, she is doing it for herself. She is modeling the exact behavior she wants to RECEIVE from me. 

And I am good with that. So when I want to do my own thing. I believe the term is: engage in independent behavior - I mirror M2's pattern. I ask her if it is ok. I do. She always says yes. And I can say with certainty that she is extremely glad that I asked her permission. 

And here I will leave you with a question to ponder. Am I the 'castrated/spineless' husband. Or am I instead the 'wife whisperer'? 

The beauty of it is - I don't care what 'you' meaning what anyone else thinks. Because I know what is true - which is that both those statements are true in a sense. The former is true - because it feels bad to me to cause M2 needless distress. And she is very skillful when it comes to shaping/discouraging behavior that causes her angst. And it is also true that - by asking her permission - I am putting her at ease in a fairly effortless manner. In a very real sense - this isn't about me. It's about helping the person I love most - manage her phobias. 

The reason for all this explanation is this. If you wish to be happy - you need comprehension. That is what you currently lack. Comprehension generally eliminates anxiety. 

As for the meta conversations this enables - they are easy and light hearted. 

Mine sort of went like this: 

We all get dealt a hand. Usually includes some phobias. There is absolutely no difference between my fears of wasps and heights and your fears of being left out or losing control. You have been extraordinarily considerate of mine. I genuinely strive to handle yours in the same manner. 








alexm said:


> Lol! I'm not that guy. And if I was, I'd be on the losing end of that battle!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

alexm said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I would tolerate the 'you only want me for sex' thing
> ...


When you "shut down that crap" are you denying that you want to use her for sex and or do you withdraw sexual initiation, in order to prove the point that you don't want to use her for sex? Or do you do something else instead?

Whenever I have been told by a woman that I only want to use her for sex, I have always agreed with them.

The women who have said I only want to use them for sex inclusive of my wife, have always responded positively when I have agreed with them.

I want sex because it is a pleasure to have.

If I am sharing sex with a woman, I want to use them for my sexual pleasure.

If I am sharing sex with a woman, I expect them to use me for their sexual pleasure.

Mutually using one another for sexual pleasure is sharing sex.

I don't have sex for the connection, the connection comes from the experience of sharing that sex.

I think it is complimentary to want to use a sexual partner for sex.

I think it is complimentary to have a sexual partner want to use you for sex.

It is also disarming to agree with someone.

If someone (quite sensibly) thinks you want to use them for sex, they're not likely to be convinced when you try to deny such a proposition. Since at its core if one doesn't want to use their sexual partner for sexual pleasure, it is reasonable to presume that they aren't getting much pleasure from the experience.

When I developed and created PSYOPS products for peace keeping operations and war, for the most part I exploited my target audiences beliefs by using their prejudices as required for or against them. If they were convinced of something there was often little advantage to be had, via diminishing or challenging their beliefs.

So rather than shut down such a claim, I encourage you to embrace it and act accordingly.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Personal,

I wish my balls were as big as yours. Laughing - but not kidding about that.....





Personal said:


> When you "shut down that crap" are you denying that you want to use her for sex and or do you withdraw sexual initiation, in order to prove the point that you don't want to use her for sex? Or do you do something else instead?
> 
> Whenever I have been told by a woman that I only want to use her for sex, I have always agreed with them.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I did, and lost, and now we're friends (I think?) and I have the utmost respect for her. She's a pretty bad-ass woman!


She definitely is! I have a lot of respect for both her and jade. They are highly intelligent women who raise the level of discussion here.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Why ask the question, if you aren't interested in the answer?




What makes you say this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm sorry if my posts sound made up or too "preachy" or something. The reason for this is that I do sort of work my agenda in my online posts, part of which is to advocate for the better understanding between men and women of how sexuality can work, and then ultimately, how it can work for *you*. I promote sex positive ideas in general, but the specific thing I'm promoting on this thread is giving myself as an example of what most men at TAM seem to believe doesn't exist. I have often felt exactly as you do in your last paragraph. When I was much younger, I used to pray for a pill that would kill my libido so that I would not be tortured by it constantly.
> 
> Maybe HD men don't brag to you about being HD, but they certainly do brag about it to HD women, such as myself. But please understand, I am like, bring it on, whatchoo got, mister? I like hearing a man go into bragging mode, to see if he really has any swagger. I am referring to men I'm considering dating or considering being sexual with, not just any random man. Though I do love reading men's swagger here at TAM when I see it authentically happen. I have seen a good amount of swagger in your posts.


Really? I wonder why it comes across like this. I have done nothing but whine and cry about it, like a horny little *****, at the core of it. Because it is a problem for me. And because I am not going to do it to my wife (the complaining). Because as JLD rightly noticed, it doesn't get you laid more nor is it "manly or attractive". And ultimately, it is the reason why I looked for these forums: to find answers to my problem. Strange that you perceive it as "swagger" (is that the same as bragging?)

I see the same in your posts btw. Maybe it's an internet communication problem. Or a British/US thing. Or you mistake humour for swagger, I don't now.



Faithful Wife said:


> You said: "It's really not that difficult to **** for hours or days sometimes, especially if you are attracted to someone."
> 
> Actually, the way I want it done, yes it is difficult. Its not always circus sex, but he's got to be ready for it if we have sex, in case we go there. We come to the bedroom like we are going to an aikido one on one workout. We are prepared for a gentle, beautiful type of battle, culminating in hearts beating just as fast as when running. Not every time....in fact maybe less than half the time. But still, it has to be there.


But don't you see that your statements are loaded with assumptions and are condescending to men because of your generalisations? I absolutely cannot relate to "not being fully there" on a daily basis for sex with my wife because I crave it on the daily basis and it's not about the orgasm relief, it's about connecting with her and her wanting me in the same way. I had it once on a daily basis for two years and I still craved it. You don't believe me, even though there is less of a reason for me to make this stuff up than for someone who is doing it in order to get into bed with you. Maybe you believe everyone wants to mate with you but nobody can?  
It's difficult for me to believe that somebody like you exists in real life maybe for the same reason you believe I am making this stuff up. I have to say I always found "in your face, too sexually forward" women off putting (not talking about you). Maybe partly those were the same reasons you find "swagger" off putting. It's a a way to get attention and when it comes to quality sex, it is all superficial and may not be all as "advertised". But I don't care about it. I care about what my wife feels.

Actually the reason I mentioned your posts sometimes sound a little made-upp-ish, is that there are so many generalities about how sex is "supposed to feel like" and about how you view yourself from a certain, sexual angle but it's very thin on specifics (actual technique and specific experiences). A bit like horoscopes. That's not to say horoscopes cannot be entertaining but there is a high probability that the way WE view ourselves is not that close to the way we actually are or the way *others* view us. It is one thing to project a certain image on a forum and quite another go about living a life as a real person.



Faithful Wife said:


> And the rest about the whole relationship and then still maintaining the sex stuff...yes, this is totally true and I'm not saying it is easy nor that most people would even want to have what I would ideally want to have. People have different strengths and give different ways to their relationships. However I will say that even through the worst of times with my long term partners, I never lost my drive. Just as most any HD man will never essentially lose his drive, even if his body won't cooperate as it did when he was younger. I'm advocating the idea here that HD women such as myself and several other women at TAM are not as rare as the TAM crowd thinks they are. This is good information to have, because it is hopeful and more positive than the "women don't want sex" message. It may not directly help anyone here to hear about my experiences because no one can use my experiences to help their own situation. So I'm just "bragging", I guess, if you want to look at it that way. But to me I'm offering a perspective that is genuine and hopeful.


I agree, if it was all that. However doing this while also telling us that all men you have been with were all empty talk when it comes to their HD is basically making fun of the problem of people like me and Alexm (and others I am sure) share. It comes across as though you believe we come here to "show off" or something. I guess if I knew you in person, I could assign a tone to your writing and maybe wouldn't infer it necessarily but those generalisations sometimes trip me up. I guess I must learn to stop "defending" all these men you have been with and look at myself as a separate entity to not get offended 



Faithful Wife said:


> I struggle when I read what you say about your wife, because I can only imagine that you two just simply feel differently about sex...you are more emotional and introspective about it than she is. You are trying to find self awareness and trying to lead her to find it, too. She is resisting because she doesn't necessarily want to become self aware at this time. So when I read your posts about her as you try to figure her out, I always just want to say "you will have to stop spending that energy trying to figure HER out, and just devote it all to figuring you out". But that's pretty much true of every situation on TAM that has problems. Including my own, past and present!


I think I am one of the few here (or perhaps one of the view actually admitting it) who are inclined to think that the problem is ME rather than HER, failing to ignite her desire for me in the same way I desire her. But sure enough, this will somehow be seen as swagger


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> One episode does not make a pattern. And wishful thinking often breeds overthinking .... in the effort to stay blind to what is staring us in the face.
> 
> Not trying to be a downer, or pretend I have some sort of inside track Just calling it as I see it, and genuinely hope I'm wrong.


Oh trust me, I know!

But seriously, I wasn't jumping for joy. It is what it is. And what it is, at this point, is me not chasing it. I already feel better.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

A bit off topic but what do you think of a H who turns his wife down when she initiates ( which I don't do as often as he does) because he has an early golf game which he must win against his buddies. He reckons it puts him off his game big time if he has sex the night before.
Should I be annoyed or just practical, I was annoyed initially, but rationalised it thinking if I have an early morning meeting then I might act the same way.
What do you guys think?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> 
> A long time ago in a distant corner of the threadverse @jld smacked me in that Alpha Mom style of hers for using the phrase bat **** crazy to describe some of M2's behaviors. After my head stopped ringing I considered her feedback.
> 
> ...


Comprehension lies in the eye of the beholder. I am pretty sure she asked you the question for two main reasons:
1. She spontaneously decided that it sounded like fun and wanted to come.
2. She wanted to see how enthusiastic you will be about her coming with you.

Sorry if I got it wrong. I do think I understand where you are coming from with your theory (modelling a behaviour in the same way she'd want to receive from you). But sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar. After a certain age, it is pretty much impossible to change in many regards, especially when it comes to reactive behaviour.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> I agree, if it was all that. However doing this *while also telling us that all men you have been with were all empty talk when it comes to their HD is basically making fun of the problem of people like me and Alexm (and others I am sure) share. It comes across as though you believe we come here to "show off" or something.* I guess if I knew you in person, I could assign a tone to your writing and maybe wouldn't infer it necessarily but those generalisations sometimes trip me up. I guess I must learn to stop "defending" all these men you have been with and look at myself as a separate entity to not get offended
> 
> I think I am one of the few here (or perhaps one of the view actually admitting it) who are inclined to think that the problem is ME rather than HER, failing to ignite her desire for me in the same way I desire her. But sure enough, this will somehow be seen as swagger


I don't take it this way, but I get where you're coming from to a point.

Look, FW is the last person who needs defending, but when she says most guys can't handle her sexually, she means it. And that's okay. I wouldn't be able to, I KNOW that, and I don't take any offense to it (not saying you do, either). I MAY have up until I was in my late 20's, but definitely not now in my early 40's. I don't think I'd even want to try, TBH, and not because it would make me feel like less of a man, but because there'd be that glaring incompatibility right from the get-go.

If you read between the lines of what she's saying (and this may only be my personal take on this) - most of us dudes would be the LD partner in a relationship with her. It's all relative. The thing is, FW is my type of woman, and there's no doubt I'd be attracted to her IRL. Therefore, I would likely ignore her sexuality in order to be with her - to my and her detriment in the long run. Much like our wives ignored or downplayed our sexual needs in order to be with us - because they're otherwise attracted to us and want to be with us. And maybe for the first little while (as long as I could handle it) I'd cater to FW's needs. Maybe several months, maybe a few years - much like how our wives viewed things at first, until ultimately realizing that we're not going to slow down.

The reason I would try and keep up with her would be because I like HER, and would want to be with her. But at the end of the day, I already know that I wouldn't be able to keep up with her needs for quality sex at the rate that she desires it. But my desire to be with her would trump that, and I'd either be certain I could meet those needs OR assume that her libido would decrease over time OR that I'd be such a great partner that she'd 'come down' to my level in that regard.

But as we know from having lived her side of the story (relatively) that's not the case.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Yes and no. I think the posts referred to where waaay back in the earlier days of our relationship - as in, once the honeymoon period ended (which for us lasted ~2 years or so). There was a point around then when she did start rejecting me, and not in a 'nice' way, and it obviously got to me. I figured I passed the half year mark of the relationship and the sex was still going strong, so it was going to be like that going forward.
> 
> It's got to the point where I didn't put myself in a position to BE rejected anymore. And here we are, lol


How did you do this? (not putting yourself in the position anymore). Agreed to 'scheduling' sex or is it something she came up with on her own?

I don't want to keep drumming the same drum but it is possible your body "remembers" those rejections (I think every one of them chips away at you, slowly) and insecurities build up, exacerbating your perception and frustration that sex for her is "just a way to control you".
Just one of one million possibilities.
I am absolutely not able to reject my wife, even if I am extremely pissed at her. Eventually my body goes "**** it, I am just going to **** now, think of a better plan later".

Thinking about it objectively: there *has* to be some sort of balance. By that I mean that the way the roles are set up usually (also in the animal kingdom): the male loses it's mind about the female as he takes charge over the female during the sex act. However the female has control over who screws her and when. It's supposed to all balance out somewhere, somehow...
Would your wife be the same person or would you perceive her in the same way if she completely relinquished this "control" over this aspect in your marriage? I sometimes am not sure I can answer this question honestly because some things lose their value once we fully possess them. The problems arise when balance tips over too much, then it becomes frustration/holding a grudge. I guess the one with control has the responsibility to use it wisely otherwise it will backfire.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> How did you do this? (not putting yourself in the position anymore). Agreed to 'scheduling' sex or is it something she came up with on her own?
> 
> *Just learned to stay away when the 'open for business' sign was not out. Living with someone and spending all that time with them, it's not hard to figure out when those times are.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I think I am one of the few here (or perhaps one of the view actually admitting it) who are inclined to think that *the problem is ME rather than HER*, failing to ignite her desire for me in the same way I desire her.


I think this is a wise approach, at least to start with. 

But why does her desire need to be the same as yours?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I don't take it this way, but I get where you're coming from to a point.
> 
> Look, FW is the last person who needs defending, but when she says most guys can't handle her sexually, she means it. And that's okay. I wouldn't be able to, I KNOW that, and I don't take any offense to it (not saying you do, either). I MAY have up until I was in my late 20's, but definitely not now in my early 40's. I don't think I'd even want to try, TBH, and not because it would make me feel like less of a man, but because there'd be that glaring incompatibility right from the get-go.
> 
> If you read between the lines of what she's saying (and this may only be my personal take on this) - most of us dudes would be the LD partner in a relationship with her. It's all relative. The thing is, FW is my type of woman, and there's no doubt I'd be attracted to her IRL.


How can you *know* this. There is much more to attraction between two people than the frequency with which they advertise to like to copulate. Like I wrote, I was always put off by the forwardness, with which the willingness to engage in any kind of sex act was advertised by women/girls. Real life is very different from cyber world. In RL, it felt forced and unnatural because many women know it's something that men like to hear (and your remark kind of proves it) and know how that it's a way to get men interested. Some women also mistake HD for the need to receive affection (which many men are either incapable of giving in the way that their "HD" partner desires or find it plain tiring). Holding hands in public, caress each other all day long, give each other compliments ad nauseam...all this can easily be mistaken for actual desire to have sex with your partner. All this then can result in the woman then deciding: "no man can live up to my HD. He's not paying me enough attention". 

In many cases, it's about *them*, it's not about the *shared* act or the partner. (I am not saying this is the way it is for FW. But for many women, it is, from my observations). Many women don't and *cannot *perceive the need for sex in the same way that men do. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the woman's definition of being HD is entirely different than the male's definition of being HD. So the arguments with HD women may probably be at cross purposes because we are possibly not talking about the same thing. 



alexm said:


> Therefore, I would likely ignore her sexuality in order to be with her - to my and her detriment in the long run. Much like our wives ignored or downplayed our sexual needs in order to be with us - because they're otherwise attracted to us and want to be with us. And maybe for the first little while (as long as I could handle it) I'd cater to FW's needs. Maybe several months, maybe a few years - much like how our wives viewed things at first, until ultimately realizing that we're not going to slow down.
> 
> The reason I would try and keep up with her would be because I like HER, and would want to be with her. But at the end of the day, I already know that I wouldn't be able to keep up with her needs for quality sex at the rate that she desires it. But my desire to be with her would trump that, and I'd either be certain I could meet those needs OR assume that her libido would decrease over time OR that I'd be such a great partner that she'd 'come down' to my level in that regard.
> 
> But as we know from having lived her side of the story (relatively) that's not the case.


I agree. Even if for whatever reason I could not "perform" on a daily basis for my wife (if she was *actually* HD), nothing would give me more pleasure than to satisfy her in other ways than with my ****. However, if I understand you correctly, your frustration doesn't originate in the frequency but the willingness on your partner's side. 
Have you actually thought of what _specifically_ would convince you that she is willing? (apart from changing around the schedule). 

A few times, my wife did an interesting thing. Reversed tactics: she bombarded me with sex acts for days, making me taste my own medicine, thinking it would "shut me up". It did the opposite: it made me want more. I imagine it's the same as for you trying to "withhold" it with her. It is likely to backfire.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> A bit off topic but what do you think of a H who turns his wife down when she initiates ( which I don't do as often as he does) because he has an early golf game which he must win against his buddies. He reckons it puts him off his game big time if he has sex the night before.
> Should I be annoyed or just practical, I was annoyed initially, but rationalised it thinking if I have an early morning meeting then I might act the same way.
> What do you guys think?


To me it would say the golf game is more important than I am. I can handle work being more important than I am, because it is what sustains us all financially. But a golf game?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I think this is a wise approach, at least to start with.
> 
> But why does her desire need to be the same as yours?


That's a very good question 
Maybe because of the domino effect of insecurities that it otherwise creates. And also because it...sucks not being wanted as much as she is wanted by me? And because it feels this aspect is sometimes being used as a power play and is very irritating. Often, before sex, she would first make sure she would get me to apologise for something I have either absolutely no recollection about or would otherwise perhaps disagree or try and have a sensible conversation about, had it not been for the fact that the blood flow has left my brain and all I can mutter is "I am sorry, I am a terrible husband" etc.
This is childish I know (on both of our parts) and a banal example (similar kind of principle can play out in more complex issues). It's just that some people have a lower tolerance threshold for this kind of crap. But the fact is: only the person on the LD side can do something like this and this gives them control.
And I come here to whine about it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> I think this is a wise approach, at least to start with.
> 
> But why does her desire need to be the same as yours?


I don't think it ever needs to be the same, IMHO. What it does need to be, however, is closer, at least.

Or to be more precise, to have the odd occasion where our partners sexual desire for us manifests itself, period.

Contrary to popular belief, the HD in the relationship doesn't always want sex. What we DO want is the occasional interest from our partners to have sex with us. I don't care if it's 80 or 90% me, truly. Just that odd time where my partner actually wants me, and it isn't her acquiescing to me, happily and willingly or not.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> How did you do this? (not putting yourself in the position anymore). Agreed to 'scheduling' sex or is it something she came up with on her own?
> 
> Just learned to stay away when the 'open for business' sign was not out. Living with someone and spending all that time with them, it's not hard to figure out when those times are.
> 
> ...


A mirror image of my life. Scary.

I wonder if it is not possible to just find a way to rationalize it and move on. Maybe ignorance is bliss. Were you not fine *before* you realized that this was happening on the same day, week after week? I always feel that if I was offered a red or a blue pill, I would stick with the blue pill for almost any kind of situation...The truth may be too uncomfortable to bother with.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> What makes you say this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because you asked your question, but when you got your answer, you then wrote post after post as to why that answer is a bunch of bs and couldn't possibly be true.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

aine said:


> A bit off topic but what do you think of a H who turns his wife down when she initiates ( which I don't do as often as he does) because he has an early golf game which he must win against his buddies. He reckons it puts him off his game big time if he has sex the night before.
> Should I be annoyed or just practical, I was annoyed initially, but rationalised it thinking if I have an early morning meeting then I might act the same way.
> What do you guys think?


Annoyed.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Oh trust me, I know!
> 
> But seriously, I wasn't jumping for joy. It is what it is. And what it is, at this point, is me not chasing it. I already feel better.


Good! You began your OP saying that you knew who your wife is .... but then still seemed to expect her to be someone different. 

From everything you've said, it sounds like she has been very clear and consistent as to who she is. And we can really only expect people to be who they are.


A person doesn't have responsive desire, if they don't respond. KWIM?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> How can you *know* this. There is much more to attraction between two people than the frequency with which they advertise to like to copulate. Like I wrote, I was always put off by the forwardness, with which the willingness to engage in any kind of sex act was advertised by women/girls. Real life is very different from cyber world. In RL, it felt forced and unnatural because many women know it's something that men like to hear (and your remark kind of proves it) and know how that it's a way to get men interested. Some women also mistake HD for the need to receive affection (which many men are either incapable of giving in the way that their "HD" partner desires or find it plain tiring). Holding hands in public, caress each other all day long, give each other compliments ad nauseam...all this can easily be mistaken for actual desire to have sex with your partner. All this then can result in the woman then deciding: "no man can live up to my HD. He's not paying me enough attention".


I wouldn't be attracted to her because of her sexuality, it's that I'm definitely attracted to this type of personality. FW owns her **** and is unapologetic about what she wants. I don't believe for a second that she says what other people want to hear, never mind men, and least of all to get a man interested.

If anything, the underlying lesson here is that almost all of us would benefit greatly if we only stated what our needs are before we get into relationships and ultimately marriages. FW does this, and is not shy about it. Telling somebody they can't handle her sexual appetite is not a come-on, it's a fact. It's not a challenge, either. She weeds those types of guys out quickly, and ****ing good for her for doing that.

Here's the thing - I don't find her personality intimidating. I admire it. She knows what she wants, and she states it.

Can we say the same about ourselves?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That's a very good question
> Maybe because of the domino effect of insecurities that it otherwise creates. And also because it...sucks not being wanted as much as she is wanted by me? And because it feels this aspect is sometimes being used as a power play and is very irritating. Often, before sex, she would first make sure she would get me to apologise for something I have either absolutely no recollection about or would otherwise perhaps disagree or try and have a sensible conversation about, had it not been for the fact that the blood flow has left my brain and all I can mutter is "I am sorry, I am a terrible husband" etc.
> This is childish I know (on both of our parts) and a banal example (similar kind of principle can play out in more complex issues). It's just that some people have a lower tolerance threshold for this kind of crap. But the fact is: only the person on the LD side can do something like this and this gives them control.
> And I come here to whine about it.


It sounds like you need a healthier power balance in your relationship. Does she only feel she has power when you want sex? She cannot come to you any other time and be heard?

Inmyprime, I want to level with you. Your post about kissing a woman with a fist yesterday seemed kind of creepy, at least to me. 

Tough but honest questions: Do you have any background with domestic violence? Is your wife possibly afraid of you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I wouldn't be attracted to her because of her sexuality, it's that I'm definitely attracted to this type of personality. FW owns her **** and is unapologetic about what she wants. I don't believe for a second that she says what other people want to hear, never mind men, and least of all to get a man interested.
> 
> If anything, the underlying lesson here is that almost all of us would benefit greatly if we only stated what our needs are before we get into relationships and ultimately marriages. FW does this, and is not shy about it. Telling somebody they can't handle her sexual appetite is not a come-on, it's a fact. It's not a challenge, either. She weeds those types of guys out quickly, and ****ing good for her for doing that.
> 
> ...


What do you think is holding you back from that?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Because you asked your question, but when you got your answer, you then wrote post after post as to why that answer is a bunch of bs and couldn't possibly be true.


That's a bit of a caricature. I would never dismiss anything as bs. If I "push" an argument, it's because I want to understand it better.
In any case, my exclamation about wives wanting to jump husbands' bones was perhaps more rhetorical and out of frustration, in case it wasn't clear.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I don't think it ever needs to be the same, IMHO. What it does need to be, however, is closer, at least.
> 
> Or to be more precise, to have the odd occasion where our partners sexual desire for us manifests itself, period.
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, the HD in the relationship doesn't always want sex. What we DO want is the occasional interest from our partners to have sex with us. I don't care if it's 80 or 90% me, truly. Just that odd time where my partner actually wants me, and it isn't her acquiescing to me, happily and willingly or not.


You want her to take charge. You do not want that position.

Is that accurate?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

aine said:


> A bit off topic but what do you think of a H who turns his wife down when she initiates ( which I don't do as often as he does) because he has an early golf game which he must win against his buddies. He reckons it puts him off his game big time if he has sex the night before.
> Should I be annoyed or just practical, I was annoyed initially, but rationalised it thinking if I have an early morning meeting then I might act the same way.
> What do you guys think?


It is a fairly common 'myth' that abstaining from sex improves athletic performance, who knows if it is true or not. So, if your question is really - is this a thing or just an excuse - it could well be a thing for him. Golf is probably 30% athletic and 70% mental so if he believes it it might well make a difference. 

Up to you how to think about his prioritizing some golf game with his buddies over sex with his wife . How often it is an issue could enter into your thinking. Us guys do tend to place importance on hobbies or competitive things which may well make no sense to the female observer.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> It sounds like you need a healthier power balance in your relationship. Does she only feel she has power when you want sex? She cannot come to you any other time and be heard?
> 
> Inmyprime, I want to level with you. Your post about kissing a woman with a fist yesterday seemed kind of creepy, at least to me.
> 
> Tough but honest questions: Do you have any background with domestic violence? Is your wife possibly afraid of you?


Haha, not at all  I say provocative stuff all the time. I noticed how Alexm's comment freaked you out and made a joke, mostly for your "benefit"  It was a (not very clear) reference to the song "I Kissed my Sweetie with my Fist" from Family Guy.

HOWEVER, I think I posted before about my wife liking me being "aggressive" in bed and sometimes feeling a bit "overwhelmed" by it (Maybe read my one of my early threads for background, if you are worried  http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/361594-normal.html

In that thread, I was happy (and relieved) to learn that actually, most women enjoy some form of dom/sub dynamic in bed, some more, some less. Some call it a "confident man", some want to be "gently choked" (as part of BDSM play, not for real!!), on the other extreme. Alexm's wife seem to have similar tendencies. When he talks about: "the need to control her sexuality AND to not be in control of sex", it describes our dynamic perfectly too.

I have never hit anyone (including guys) as I have a phobia. And am a bit embarrassed about the latter, for not having been in a proper bar fight with another man.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> You want her to take charge. You do not want that position.
> 
> Is that accurate?


Projection.

He has clearly stated he wants her to desire to have sex on more than just the exact same day each week. 

He wants her to be open to spontaneity the other six days of the week rather than those days being off limits.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Projection.
> 
> He has clearly stated he wants her to desire to have sex on more than just the exact same day each week.
> 
> He wants her to be open to spontaneity the other six days of the week rather than those days being off limits.


Hey, I would not want to be the dominant in a relationship, either, far. But that does not mean it is projection. 

It is just the feeling I am getting as I read some of these posts.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I wouldn't be attracted to her because of her sexuality, it's that I'm definitely attracted to this type of personality. FW owns her **** and is unapologetic about what she wants. I don't believe for a second that she says what other people want to hear, never mind men, and least of all to get a man interested.
> 
> If anything, the underlying lesson here is that almost all of us would benefit greatly if we only stated what our needs are before we get into relationships and ultimately marriages. FW does this, and is not shy about it. Telling somebody they can't handle her sexual appetite is not a come-on, it's a fact. It's not a challenge, either. She weeds those types of guys out quickly, and ****ing good for her for doing that.
> 
> ...


I guess I don't know her well enough and mustn't make generalisations. My previous post was not so much about her. Something tripped me up and reminded me of a few personalities I came across in my past. She isn't them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> It sounds like you need a healthier power balance in your relationship. Does she only feel she has power when you want sex? She cannot come to you any other time and be heard?


It is possible but I honestly don't think so. But because I *always* want to have sex with her, she *always* has the power 
It could also be that it is the _easiest_ way to get the power. I don't think I am deaf or ignorant with her. I actually crave spending more time with her, not just for sex. Having small kids puts this time at a premium for us. I often feel she would rather spend that time alone, reading a book or doing something else. Although to be fair, this could be again my (mistaken) perception of it.

For example, after dinner and after kids fall asleep, on the day that she _knows_ I don't expect sex, she will rush up to her room to read etc (unless I suggest we do something). When it has been 2-3 days, she will hang around, to see if I initiate (if I don't, after 3 days, she will say "ok, come on, less talk, lets go upstairs then". She says it in a playful way, not really in a condescending way. I guess she feels since she's a woman, it is not "womanly" to be too eager about it, I don't know). That's just to describe the dynamic of a typical day...It doesn't really make me feel _that_ desired to be honest...However she knows I am getting it regularly and ticks off that box, without realising that it doesn't actually do that much.

It is true that one of her biggest complaints is that she thinks that i think she is incapable, not smart enough or that I don't take her seriously enough etc. She is the youngest of the three siblings and we have frequently discussed that this is a typical insecurity that the youngest one can inherit (from feeling bullied or put down by older siblings). I obviously try also hard to make sure she has no reason to feel these things from me. But my personality is sometimes to joke, say inappropriate/provocative things to her. It is a way to flirt with her, she often takes offense (either deliberately or as part of the whole chase/pursuit spiel).

Ok I must sign off and get things done. This forum is taking over my life lately


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Hey, I would not want to be the dominant in a relationship, either, far. But that does not mean it is projection.
> 
> It is just the feeling I am getting as I read some of these posts.


When you wear "power dynamic" glasses (proverbially), every situation looks like someone is either seeking to take or give away more power. To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

He is frustrated at the limits imposed by A2 to the point that he is ready to stop pursuing her. That is not asking her to "take charge". It is him choosing to stop playing by her rules any longer.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> When you wear "power dynamic" glasses (proverbially), every situation looks like someone is either seeking to take or give away more power. To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
> 
> *He is frustrated at the limits imposed by A2 to the point that he is ready to stop pursuing her. That is not asking her to "take charge". It is him choosing to stop playing by her rules any longer.*


Or basically asking her to take some responsibility/accountability (I know, scary words for some lol) in their marriage when it comes to their sex life


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> 
> A long time ago in a distant corner of the threadverse @jld smacked me in that Alpha Mom style of hers for using the phrase bat **** crazy to describe some of M2's behaviors. After my head stopped ringing I considered her feedback.
> 
> ...


MEM -

I find this post fascinating and inspiring. What you did here is exactly what I try to do in my own marriage - I have a great interest in my own self discovery and simultaneously the discovery of my husbands inner workings as well - with the goal of a more harmonious marriage. 

You were ingenious to discover M2's "phobias" as it gives you invaluable inside information about what her triggers are, so you can deftly maneuver around them and avoid any major landmines that might spring up. 

I think every person on earth has those landmines scattered around them - but that each individual may not have the introspective clarity to know what their phobias and associate landmines are. Or they may know them, but refuse to acknowledge them or admit that they are there. There is nothing that I want more in my marriage than to learn and subsequently avoid my husbands landmines. I am 12 years into this relationship with him and still learning new things about him every day. My H conceals his phobias behind guarded doors. And he throws so much shade up around them that it is difficult for me to decipher what the truth is - he deflects me as soon as I get close to it. I've spent a long time studying him, and to this day I couldn't tell you whether the deflection I perceive is intentional (he is actively hiding parts of himself from me for some reason- shame? embarassment?) or unintentional (he has not even admitted his phobias to himself, so he tells himself and me that they just don't exist). 12 years in and I still feel like there are pieces of him that I don't really know at all. 

One thing that struck me about this post of yours is that it appears that while M2 may not have given you these answers on a golden platter, she also did not actively work against you finding them or using them to help navigate your sticking points with her. You can see this because when you ask her for permission to do things, she doesn't protest against you asking, she just quietly says yes and is grateful that you asked first. That helps with your harmony with her. 

Let's say my H had the same phobia - FOMO. He too would never dream of telling me I couldn't do something without him, so in reality I don't HAVE to ask permission as I know he will let me go. But let's say I asked permission as a courtesy to him per your move with M2. His reaction would be indignant. "Why are you asking me for permission? You know you don't need to ask me. Did you think I'd say no? Do you really think I am THAT overbearing that I'd tell you no? Have I ever said no to you before?" It gets to the point where I just roll my eyes and walk away, and get annoyed that I even tried to do something for his benefit when I get raked over the coals for it. How do you navigate that when your spouse won't let you help them? 

What is most annoying to me - I try to be a completely open book. I think FW and I are kindred spirits in that regard because I am unapologetically honest in my life to the point of being seen as abrasive or intimidating. I have phobias for sure. More than the average woman, I think. I own them and for some of them, I even seek treatment. My husband knows them. I tell him what they are. I give them to him on the golden platter. I couldn't hide my flaws if I tried...it's just not in my nature to deceive. I would be horrible at it. Most importantly- I think that being unapologetically honest and forthcoming is the morally "right" thing to do. And to knowingly deceive is a major sin. (This is why I triggered hard a few pages ago when discussing the idea that LD'S must actively deceive those they enter into a relationship with. The whole idea that anyone would even accuse me of doing that stomps all over everything I believe in.)

Sometimes I think my husband is overwhelmed by my phobias, or that he cannot understand what it is like to have things that trigger an uncontrolled or exaggerated emotional response that logically you know is over the top, but that you feel you cannot stop from happening. I've tried to ask him if he has any phobias - literally anything in his life that causes him fear or anxiety- and he will look me in the eye and say "Nothing. I am not afraid of anything." And I can tell you he firmly believes it to be true. It's not true - it can't be true. Every single person on earth has things that cause them anxiety and fear. He's not a robot. 

I can't for the life of me figure out how to bridge this gap and get to where you are with M2!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> When you wear "power dynamic" glasses (proverbially), every situation looks like someone is either seeking to take or give away more power. To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.


Power dynamics are part of every relationship, far, whether we see them or not. When you seek something from someone that you are not getting, and you continue to feel frustrated by it, you are giving them your power. 

When you become aware of this, you can make a choice to do something different with your power, if you want to.



> He is frustrated at the limits imposed by A2 to the point that he is ready to stop pursuing her. That is not asking her to "take charge". It is him choosing to stop playing by her rules any longer.


I understand that that is how it looks through your frame. But your frame may not be her frame. 

And seeking to understand her frame, while not taking it personally, could be the beginning to a solution here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Or basically asking her to take some responsibility/accountability (I know, scary words for some lol) in their marriage when it comes to their sex life


According to your frame.

Again, her frame may not be your frame. 

Seeking to understand hers, without getting defensive or aggressive (according to her), could be helpful to you and many other men here complaining of issues in their sex lives.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I understand that that is how it looks through your frame. But your frame may not be her frame.
> 
> And seeking to understand her frame, while not taking it personally, could be the beginning to a solution here.


I don't disagree with this this, but your statement did not appear to have anything to do with her frame, and everything to do with his.

What am I not seeing?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I don't disagree with this this, but your statement did not appear to have anything to do with her frame, and everything to do with his.
> 
> What am I not seeing?


Beat me to it. Also, who says Alex hasn't done everything he could to see things from "her" frame. It is simply an inability to see things from anyone else's POV that doesn't line up with hers.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I don't disagree with this this, but your statement did not appear to have anything to do with her frame, and everything to do with his.
> 
> What am I not seeing?


Not sure. You and I tend to see through different frames, so it can make it hard for us to understand each other.

One thing we need to remember is that we only hear from Alex, and even then we mostly hear his interpretation of her attitude and actions. It is not like anyone can give a completely objective view of their spouse. If we were hearing from her, too, we could get a more complete view of their situation.

But by all of us sharing our take on his posts, we might be able to give him some ideas to consider that he would not have come up with on his own. Really, that is the value of the forum.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> What do you think is holding you back from that?



This is a great question for a lot of us JLD.

I've been thinking about my dog a lot lately. In a lot of ways, I envy my dog his ability to just ask for what he wants without shame or doubt. When my dog wants affection, he simply walks up to me--regardless of context or situation--nudges my hand and flips over. 9 times out of 10, he gets a belly rub.

I think in the case of a lot of people (myself included), when it becomes 1 or 2 out of 10 times, vs 9 out of 10, a message is received. I'm not worth the time. Like you'd feel if you were rejected for a golf game, over and over and over. And that 1 or 2 times out of 10 that it pans out doesn't leave you feeling relieved--it leaves you confused.

I think after a while, even a dog would get the message.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> This is a great question for a lot of us JLD.
> 
> I've been thinking about my dog a lot lately. In a lot of ways, I envy my dog his ability to just ask for what he wants without shame or doubt. When my dog wants affection, he simply walks up to me--regardless of context or situation--nudges my hand and flips over. 9 times out of 10, he gets a belly rub.
> 
> ...


That is really sad, Fozzy. 

I guess I am like Dug's dog, according to your description. I am always going to him, transparently seeking his attention or affection. And getting those things makes me feel safe and loved and receptive to his sexual advances.

But sometimes he is not very sensitive to my needs, and that hurts. Perceived rejection, even if it is just a lack of awareness on his part, and unintended, hurts me.

Those of us who feel like the puppy dogs in our relationships are kind of stuck when our masters do not take care of us. Other than transparent communication, I am not sure what to recommend. We are kind of at their mercy, unless we want to run away from them. And that just seems really scary and not what we really want at all.
@Duguesclin I am doing a mention to you because I want you to see this post, and Fozzy's post that motivated it. Thank you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Any communication about sex is a catch22 for men: a JLD will see any request as being "whiny and sullen" and "Sex might not happen for a long time, period" so what's the point of even bringing it up?
> Just rape them, that's what a "real man" is supposed to do
> (that's a bad joke, in case it wasn't clear; I would never have sex against their will with anyone. Unless they wouldn't give me sex voluntarily


As Louis CK says, if they won't have sex with you, what other choice do you have? :smile2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> As Louis CK says, if they won't have sex with you, what other choice do you have? :smile2:


That's *exactly* the reference I was going for 
But again, misremembered exact wording.
I hope the lighthearted banter is not getting mistaken here for actual violence by some women. Tone of voice is not available here so misunderstandings are bound to happen.
Will tone it down.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've learned not to listen to these words as it is a very rare man who even knows how much sex he could have and how often, because most of them have simply never been able to test it.


Which would seem to be evidence that, while women like you DO exist, they are rare.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> That is really sad, Fozzy.
> 
> I guess I am like Dug's dog, according to your description. I am always going to him, transparently seeking his attention or affection. And getting those things makes me feel safe and loved and receptive to his sexual advances.
> 
> ...


Different relationship dynamic preferences for different people I guess. I am not certain a "puppy" wife would be my type (sorry, I am not saying that's all you are. Being general again).

I think I _need_ to fight for my woman and her affection. I don't like to have it easy in that sense (kiss her and she will melt at my legs).

It's only when it becomes a deliberate game to "control" or manipulate from the other side and I begin to feel that at the core of it, there is nothing much else to her feelings, that i begin to panic.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> That is really sad, Fozzy.
> 
> I guess I am like Dug's dog, according to your description. I am always going to him, transparently seeking his attention or affection. And getting those things makes me feel safe and loved and receptive to his sexual advances.
> 
> ...


Leaving the power dynamic out of it--it's just a matter of learning. I don't view myself as subservient in my relationship. I'm just saying that when an action continuously produces an unfavorable reaction, you pretty soon learn to avoid that action. For many of us, that includes communicating what we want.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> And here I will leave you with a question to ponder. Am I the 'castrated/spineless' husband. Or am I instead the *'wife whisperer'*?
> 
> The beauty of it is - I don't care what 'you' meaning what anyone else thinks. Because I know what is true - which is that both those statements are true in a sense. The former is true - because it feels bad to me to cause M2 needless distress. And she is very skillful when it comes to shaping/discouraging behavior that causes her angst. And it is also true that - by asking her permission - I am putting her at ease in a fairly effortless manner. In a very real sense - this isn't about me. It's about helping the person I love most - manage her phobias.
> 
> ...



MEM2020, this is a wonderful close to your most enlightening post...

In the last two weeks EB2 has been presented with our son (my stepson) being convicted of a felony, her brother dying, being told her job will be made redundant in June, and on top of that she hurt her back the first 10 minutes of Spring yard cleanup... distress was foremost and past practice would have had us not speaking when she needed me the most.

Instead, I was your "wife-whisperer" that you spoke of... what a difference.

She asked last night what I thought of her retiring, seeking a permission that was not mine to have to give, and I gave her my thoughts but in the end told her that no matter what she decided, I had her back. I got the biggest hug and I love you this morning as we were trading places in the shower and body to body, we were at peace body and soul... my calm is her calm when she does need it the most, and I was there "effortlessly" without terms or conditions, what a great place to be.

Thank you for sharing... 

Hey @alexm, this is good stuff to think about..


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Thinking about it objectively: there *has* to be some sort of balance. By that I mean that the way the roles are set up usually (also in the animal kingdom): the male loses it's mind about the female as he takes charge over the female during the sex act. However the female has control over who screws her and when. It's supposed to all balance out somewhere, somehow...
> Would your wife be the same person or would you perceive her in the same way if she completely relinquished this "control" over this aspect in your marriage? I sometimes am not sure I can answer this question honestly because some things lose their value once we fully possess them. The problems arise when balance tips over too much, then it becomes frustration/holding a grudge. I guess the one with control has the responsibility to use it wisely otherwise it will backfire.


There are plenty of women who never say "no" to their husbands regarding sex (including quite a few who probably* should* say no). 

It seems to me that those marriages (excluding the ones where she should say no) are among the happiest.

Just because you could control something doesn't mean you have to.


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> MEM2020, this is a wonderful close to your most enlightening post...
> 
> In the last two weeks EB2 has been presented with our son (my stepson) being convicted of a felony, her brother dying, being told her job will be made redundant in June, and on top of that she hurt her back the first 10 minutes of Spring yard cleanup... distress was foremost and past practice would have had us not speaking when she needed me the most.
> 
> ...


I would love to achieve what you have. There's a lot of fear of reaction or rejection in my marriage that rules a lot of how we interact with each other, and I would really like to move past it. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Different relationship dynamic preferences for different people I guess. I am not certain a "puppy" wife would be my type (sorry, I am not saying that's all you are. Being general again).


That's okay. We are not all meant to be married to each other. 

The main thing is to find the person we are highly compatible with. That will make our life together so much easier.



> I think I _need_ to fight for my woman and her affection. I don't like to have it easy in that sense (kiss her and she will melt at my legs).


It sounds like you picked the right gal, then!  She seems to give you a run for your money!



> It's only when it becomes a deliberate game to "control" or manipulate from the other side and I begin to feel that at the core of it, there is nothing much else to her feelings, that i begin to panic.


Can you elaborate on what is motivating that panic? 

It does not need to make sense. Just getting it out can be enlightening, and freeing.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That's *exactly* the reference I was going for
> But again, misremembered exact wording.
> I hope the lighthearted banter is not getting mistaken here for actual violence by some women. Tone of voice is not available here so misunderstandings are bound to happen.
> Will tone it down.


Could you address my question about domestic violence, though? Saying you would kiss your wife, and then mentioning a fist, just seems scary.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Leaving the power dynamic out of it--it's just a matter of learning. I don't view myself as subservient in my relationship. I'm just saying that when an action continuously produces an unfavorable reaction, you pretty soon learn to avoid that action. For many of us, that includes communicating what we want.


Fozzy, I would like to ask you a question. You certainly do not need to answer it. But I am curious.

How does it make you feel to think an outsider may see you as subservient to your wife, as giving your power to her? (Even though you do not see it that way. Even knowing that it is just an observation by a total stranger, and really has no power other than that.) Does it seem threatening?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> That's okay. We are not all meant to be married to each other.
> 
> The main thing is to find the person we are highly compatible with. That will make our life together so much easier.
> 
> ...


Haha, you are a good listener JLD  

Just being inadequate for her in that department. Basically that underneath it all, there is no real affection left for me. That no matter what I do or how I act, it will not push the right buttons because she settled for less, and she may not know it herself.
Kind of stupid.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Could you address my question about domestic violence, though? Saying you would kiss your wife, and then mentioning a fist, just seems scary.


I did!! In post no. 510. Did you not read it? Or does it not answer your question?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I hope the lighthearted banter is not getting mistaken here for actual violence by some women. Tone of voice is not available here so misunderstandings are bound to happen.


When I first started here I considered using emoticons to be "cheating".

After all, if I said something correctly, readers would understand the "tone".

Nope.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Power dynamics in marriage are interesting. In general the person who is most "fragile" has the power.

Someone who is feeling too poorly for sex gets to say not to sex. Nothing the other can do. (since threats are clearly not OK).

The weaker party can can always stop any action by claiming weakness. 

When my wife and I go hiking in the mountains, I'm a much stronger hiker, so she "controls" when we stop. What other option is there?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> When my wife and I go hiking in the mountains, I'm a much stronger hiker, so she "controls" when we stop. What other option is there?


Make sure she has a large life insurance policy


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Power dynamics in marriage are interesting. In general the person who is most "fragile" has the power.
> 
> Someone who is feeling too poorly for sex gets to say not to sex. Nothing the other can do. (since threats are clearly not OK).
> 
> ...


You pick her up and take her to the peak :yay:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I think the challenge with the whole HD/LD dynamic is that it is very subjective. There is no set definition of what an HD or LD person is, and in many cases it is dependent on the person you are with (i.e. I am the HD person in my marriage compared to my W, but could easily be considered LD to someone else who has a higher drive). Ideally, for those who have a mismatch, you hope that both people can understand where they stand, the POV of the other person, and hopefully work together to come up with a solution that works for both. It is important as well to understand the negatives, and take some responsibility for the consequences if you are unwilling to work with your partner (this applies to both the HD and LD person).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I did!! In post no. 510. Did you not read it? Or does it not answer your question?


Totally missed that post. Sorry about that, and thanks for clarifying. Did not realize it referenced a song.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Haha, you are a good listener JLD


It's always a pleasure to converse with intelligent, non-defensive people, inmyprime.  



> Just being inadequate for her in that department. Basically that underneath it all, there is no real affection left for me. That no matter what I do or how I act, it will not push the right buttons because she settled for less, and she may not know it herself.
> Kind of stupid.


So you are afraid she "settled" for you?

Or are you afraid that in some way, you truly are not good enough, or just enough, for her? That it is ultimately hopeless?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Fozzy, I would like to ask you a question. You certainly do not need to answer it. But I am curious.
> 
> How does it make you feel to think an outsider may see you as subservient to your wife, as giving your power to her? (Even though you do not see it that way. Even knowing that it is just an observation by a total stranger, and really has no power other than that.) Does it seem threatening?


Depends on the person probably. Coming from the dime-a-dozen "alpha" chest-thumpers--couldn't care less. If it came from someone I knew and respected, it would probably bother me more. Probably shouldn't, but it likely would.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Depends on the person probably. Coming from the dime-a-dozen "alpha" chest-thumpers--couldn't care less. If it came from someone I knew and respected, it would probably bother me more. Probably shouldn't, but it likely would.


Why would it?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> It's always a pleasure to converse with intelligent, non-defensive people, inmyprime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I worry our marriage might be a sham, a facade. On the surface, we are a perfect family: 3 beautiful children, perfect life, I'm in the top 10 people in my field career-wise, set financially for life without needing to work (we still do), but one important ingredient might be missing for it to all crumble to pieces: if she settled for me. Because eventually it will come to the surface one way or another.
It's the one aspect I'm trying to figure out. And one way is to first figure out what goes on in the head of that woman. But I fear of opening Pandora's box because so far, I am not sure I like what I'm seeing.
Eventually kids will grow up and there will be two potentially miserable sods left behind (us).

Edit: I don't mean to "swagger" again. It's just that when you are at or close to the top in your life, the only way is down. Kind of logical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Why would it?


Not sure. I guess I'm more insecure around people I know? Maybe the thought that someone I thought I knew had misread me that much makes me think we don't know each other that well? Dunno--I'm reaching, but I really don't have an answer for you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I did once carry her a little way just for fun, but while I can hike further than she can, she certainly can hike further than I can carry her....





inmyprime said:


> You pick her up and take her to the peak :yay:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its perfectly normal and reasonable to care about the opinions of people you respect, and to not care about the opinions of those you don't respect. 

I don't get offended when I'm at a zoo and a money starts screeching at me. 




Fozzy said:


> Not sure. I guess I'm more insecure around people I know? Maybe the thought that someone I thought I knew had misread me that much makes me think we don't know each other that well? Dunno--I'm reaching, but I really don't have an answer for you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I worry our marriage might be a sham, a facade. On the surface, we are a perfect family: 3 beautiful children, perfect life, I'm in the top 10 people in my field career-wise, set financially for life without needing to work (we still do), but one important ingredient might be missing for it to all crumble to pieces: if she settled for me. Because eventually it will come to the surface one way or another.
> It's the one aspect I'm trying to figure out. And one way is to first figure out what goes on in the head of that woman. But I fear of opening Pandora's box because so far, I am not sure I like what I'm seeing.
> Eventually kids will grow up and there will be two potentially miserable sods left behind (us).
> 
> ...


Wow, that is amazing, that this is the only area in your life where you do not have complete success. You are like @Andy1001 in this way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Not sure. I guess I'm more insecure around people I know? Maybe the thought that someone I thought I knew had misread me that much makes me think we don't know each other that well? Dunno--I'm reaching, but I really don't have an answer for you.


Sometimes people we know in real life see things we can't. And sometimes they are wrong. Hard to know, especially on emotional issues, where our own vision can be clouded.

Thanks for trying to answer my questions, Fozzy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Complete success is relative. I could moan about not being in the top 3...But I realise that in all likelihood, caring enough about the last 10% to get there may cost me 90% of everything else that I managed to acquire (friends & family). I don't think it is worth it, only for the ego.

Anyway, no matter how much we have, it's important to be thankful (one aspect where I agree with the bible 
Still makes me fearful that I might be missing an obvious blind spot in my life 'cos it has a way of slapping us with something ridiculous out of nowhere.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Which would seem to be evidence that, while women like you DO exist, they are rare.


In the post of mine you quoted, yes I am probably fairly rare. But only in that I do seem to have unrealistic ideals, based on what I have observed in my own experiences. So I know I have to keep my expectations in check, and I am pretty good at doing that.

But in the sense of me simply being an extremely sexual woman, no I do not think I am rare.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Complete success is relative. I could moan about not being in the top 3...But I realise that in all likelihood, caring enough about the last 10% to get there may cost me 90% of everything else that I managed to acquire (friends & family). I don't think it is worth it, only for the ego.
> 
> Anyway, no matter how much we have, it's important to be thankful (one aspect where I agree with the bible
> *Still makes me fearful that I might be missing an obvious blind spot in my life 'cos it has a way of slapping us with something ridiculous out of nowhere.*


That's what makes the ride interesting, right? If we knew everything ahead of time, and could control it, life would be pretty boring.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But don't you see that your statements are loaded with assumptions and are condescending to men because of your generalisations? I absolutely cannot relate to "not being fully there" on a daily basis for sex with my wife because I crave it on the daily basis and it's not about the orgasm relief, it's about connecting with her and her wanting me in the same way. I had it once on a daily basis for two years and I still craved it. You don't believe me, even though there is less of a reason for me to make this stuff up than for someone who is doing it in order to get into bed with you. Maybe you believe everyone wants to mate with you but nobody can?
> 
> *I totally believe you, there's no reason for me not to. I'm just sharing my experience, and have no reason to doubt yours. There are a few people on this board who have sex daily and are in long term marriages. It is not completely unheard of. But it is not common either (daily sex). My experience has been that daily sex with me is manageable for some men and not for others.*
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
First of all, I think your high integrity/ high transparency approach is admirable. And that is especially true for the sex part. 

Us humans are a confounded lot. Nowhere more so than in the bedroom where ego protection often crashes headlong into true intimacy. 

I read this article about women faking it - and how bad that is for their LTR/marriage. And I nodded. 

Because when you fake an orgasm you are combining apex intimacy with intentional deception. And when it's patterned deception - you are creating a huge amount of emotional torque. 

So your H has a phobia of not being desirable. And it is a phobia - because you clearly desire him. And his phobia is triggered by you not reaching the rapture. 

He also has a more general phobia of not seeming masculine/manly - which is why he claims to be fearless. Or at least to have no phobias. 

So the approach to someone like that is to avoid words that - make him appear weak. 

In the beginning - working through this with M2 - I learned that it was an epic fail to say:

I know that when I do XYZ, it makes you angry (and over time as I learned more - I discovered that the real deal was that XYZ caused her to feel either frightened or hurt - and that the anger was just a reaction - a secondary emotion)

Trial and error led me to a different delivery style which worked a lot better:

Sometimes I get the sense that when I do XYZ, that feels bad to you. 
Or 
Sometimes I get the sense that you don't much like it when I do XYZ

--------------
And if I got a defensive reaction - I would bookend the conversation with this:
Everyone has likes and dislikes. Stuff that feels good and other stuff that feels bad. 

And then I drop it. 
--------------






kag123 said:


> MEM -
> 
> I find this post fascinating and inspiring. What you did here is exactly what I try to do in my own marriage - I have a great interest in my own self discovery and simultaneously the discovery of my husbands inner workings as well - with the goal of a more harmonious marriage.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

IMP,
There's a reason M2 and I have extended the English language to create a vocabulary - solely focused on addressing my various (asynchronous/independent) behaviors. 

The easiest was inVIDelity - for watching shows/movies without her. 

There are others including:

inPODelity - for listening to podcasts without her

inWAdelity - for going on walks without her

----------
When you trigger your partner - it isn't true they only have two options: fight or flight

There's a third option - you can roughhouse - and that's generally what we do. 

And I am unwavering in my belief that describing other people's phobias as 'crazy' solely because they differ from your own - is both mean spirited and hypocritical. 

When you validate someone else's feelings in a playful manner - they generally respond well to it. 

Let me turn it around. The wasp is flying around in the house. While I am trying to kill it - and my heart is racing - you could make a factual statement like: Good thing you aren't allergic. My response to that is - do you not grasp that I KNOW it's a phobia. 

But if you ask: You want me to call a bus (slang for ambulance)? That just makes me laugh. 

Playful acknowledgement is powerful. 







inmyprime said:


> Comprehension lies in the eye of the beholder. I am pretty sure she asked you the question for two main reasons:
> 1. She spontaneously decided that it sounded like fun and wanted to come.
> 2. She wanted to see how enthusiastic you will be about her coming with you.
> 
> Sorry if I got it wrong. I do think I understand where you are coming from with your theory (modelling a behaviour in the same way she'd want to receive from you). But sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar. After a certain age, it is pretty much impossible to change in many regards, especially when it comes to reactive behaviour.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I can understand why from your vantage point I sound made upp-ish. However, not only here but in other online places I have given tons of actual technique and specific experiences, I am not avoiding doing that or trying to sound like I'm reading a horoscope. Look - I just ENJOY sharing my perspective, ok? I know that mine is not the same as others but just as I benefit from reading the perspective of others who are both similar to me and very different to me,
> I offer my perspective for the same reason. I am not saying my perspective is how it should be for any particular other person. My life in real life as a real person is a pretty cool life, in part because my sex life is so awesome.
> 
> Yes please don't feel offended. I certainly don't feel offended by you. I just accept that I come across as abrasive to some people and I can be off putting. Going forward maybe you can just read my posts and be like "yeah she's just kind of a brat like that in her wording".


Deal :smile2: I just won't use the word "brat".




Faithful Wife said:


> Again, swagger is GOOD. In my world, anyway. Can I ask you a question...if you knew with certainty that you could not ignite her desire for you in equal measure to your own, but also knew that no other man would be able to either, would you be able to be at peace with that? Or do you really have to know for certain that no other man could make her have more desire? I'm just trying to understand what you are really needing


I know what you are getting at with the question and it's a good one. I am trying to work backwards by way of elimination. Eliminating the idea that she'd be happier with someone else would put everything on me and her and is the obvious place to start in my mind. We could start working from there. If it's not up to me and I am not able to make her fully happy, then we have to think seriously whether it is a good idea to stay together (because eventually this problem will probably raise its ugly head one way or another).

If her desire has an overall "ceiling" (as I guess is what you are driving at) and I knew this for a fact (dunno how it's possible to find out) then it's an entirely different matter. I would stop torturing myself (and her) and find it easier to accept the situation and also her, for who she is. It doesn't mean that I would discontinue trying different things to have a good time together but I would probably take it less personally if I don't get the "right" feedback, if that makes sense, and would be more content with the fact that I know that she will be happy with me and her life with me, no matter what.

I realise that in your mind, both scenarios produce the same outcome in terms of our sex life and life in general but the former has less predictable outcomes. She might suddenly decide she can't bear it anymore with me and find someone else. Or she might to bear it with me and be miserable and not tell me.

Does it make sense?


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> You want her to take charge. You do not want that position.
> 
> Is that accurate?


I don't want either of us to be in charge.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> That's what makes the ride interesting, right? If we knew everything ahead of time, and could control it, life would be pretty boring.


I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.

Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> MEM2020, this is a wonderful close to your most enlightening post...
> 
> In the last two weeks EB2 has been presented with our son (my stepson) being convicted of a felony, her brother dying, being told her job will be made redundant in June, and on top of that she hurt her back the first 10 minutes of Spring yard cleanup... distress was foremost and past practice would have had us not speaking when she needed me the most.
> 
> ...


I'm not insulted by this, but what makes you think this isn't how I operate currently with my wife?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.
> 
> Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.


That is kind of the beauty of this thread: it meanders. Big thanks to Alex and the two mods here who are allowing these interesting conversations.

Imp, would you say you have control issues? Or not at all?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I don't want either of us to be in charge.


What would be your ideal arrangement?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

IMP,

This my man - is the absolutely transparent expression of anxiety. 

This type thing is why I love TAM. 





inmyprime said:


> I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.
> 
> Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> That is kind of the beauty of this thread: it meanders. Big thanks to Alex and the two mods here who are allowing these interesting conversations.
> 
> Imp, would you say you have control issues? Or not at all?


Anything is possible. I am not the best person to characterise myself 
I think my wife sees me as ego-centric, not very well attuned to what's going on outside of my head, socially awkward and needing constant validation from others/outside (the latter partly my job's fault).
Don't remember her saying anything about control.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> What would be your ideal arrangement?


That neither of us are in charge of each others sex life...

This whole 'once a week thing' is fine. It's not ideal, but I'm okay with it. What I don't like is that it's the same day, pretty much same time.

What I don't like is that it's dictated to me when I can have sex (and really where, too).

I'm okay with planning. I'm okay with scheduling. This is how life is at my age, with kids and jobs and everything else.

I don't want to plan or schedule my sex life, thankyouverymuch. I just want it to ****ing happen, even if it's once a week.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> IMP,
> 
> This my man - is the absolutely transparent expression of anxiety.
> 
> This type thing is why I love TAM.


Well. Is there a "cure"? Because I am not sure I am liking it!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> That neither of us are in charge of each others sex life...
> 
> This whole 'once a week thing' is fine. It's not ideal, but I'm okay with it. What I don't like is that it's the same day, pretty much same time.
> 
> ...


That's why I was wondering whether it would not be easier to change YOUR perception of it, rather than try and change HER behaviour. To understand that perhaps that's not a bad or "insulting" thing for your wife to "schedule" it in her head. Maybe it will help if you try to understand "why" she goes about it the way she does (unless of course she hates your guts and that's the only way she can stand it, in which case Pandora's Box! 
(That last comment is not about you, it's about me.)


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.
> 
> Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.


IMP - I once got swallowed whole by this type of thinking, to the point where I had a full out breakdown. It is what led me to ultimately seek help, and I am now medicated for it and much better off than I used to be. I'm not saying you need medication or even that you have any type of diagnosable disorder like I do. Just that you need to keep recognizing these thoughts and find a way to snap your brain out of it, because they can be poison if you let them run on too long. The human brain is able to live in the present if you train it to do so. 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> IMP - I once got swallowed whole by this type of thinking, to the point where I had a full out breakdown. It is what led me to ultimately seek help, and I am now medicated for it and much better off than I used to be. I'm not saying you need medication or even that you have any type of diagnosable disorder like I do. Just that you need to keep recognizing these thoughts and find a way to snap your brain out of it, because they can be poison if you let them run on too long. The human brain is able to live in the present if you train it to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Usually they don't run long. They lurk in the back of my mind. Have you tried meditation? Apparently that's one way to calm your mind but also come closest to be able to experience the present.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> That's a bit of a caricature. I would never dismiss anything as bs. If I "push" an argument, it's because I want to understand it better.
> In any case, my exclamation about wives wanting to jump husbands' bones was perhaps more rhetorical and out of frustration, in case it wasn't clear.


And yet, you have since made several comments that 

- women who are forward sexually are a turn off
-that such women are only doing so because they are trying to impress men
-that women have no idea what it means to be HD, and are obviously talking about something different
- that women who pretend to these things on the internet aren't real IRL.

and on and on. All of which is a round about way of saying that women's response to your preconceived notions is bs, 

It may be worth your while to examine your preconceptions on this and how they might contribute to your experience of women.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> I'm not insulted by this, but what makes you think this isn't how I operate currently with my wife?


It was just good stuff to keep reflecting on and what @MEM2020 wrote felt good and touched me... it was your thread and I wanted to point it out from all the other stuff that was paging past.

That's all... :smile2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> And yet, you have since made several comments that
> 
> - women who are forward sexually are a turn off
> 
> ...


Ok


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jade - that women who pretend to these things on the internet aren't real IRL.

inmyprime - What?? I said no such thing.



Um...I'm pretty sure you did actually doubt that I am telling the truth or that I am not "real" in the way I present myself?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

@alexm

OK, so thought maybe this might be helpful since I feel like some of the issues you have described have gotten twisted around a little. Maybe you can confirm/clarify:

- You are fine with having sex 1x a week (wouldn't complain if it happened more lol). Your issue is that it is on your Ws terms only, which appears to be it has to happen per the schedule? If you attempt to start anything outside of the schedule, she rejects you?

- The scheduled 1x a week, would you say this is her "compromise", or was this pretty much how it had been for a while, and the only difference now is that you get a guaranteed weekend day set aside?

- You are not looking for her to take control of the situation or some dramatic shift in power? You are happy to pick up most of the slack, and at the end of the day you just want her to take some sort of shared responsibility in maintaining a healthy sex life in your marriage?

- Are you whining / pleading for sex? I have no idea where this has come from, but seems like a guy exhibiting frustration or concern over his sex life has been viewed as whining ....

- Do you consider yourself less "manly" b/c you feel she should have some sort of shared responsibility with this (i.e. if that means she needs to initiate periodically, all of a sudden now she is wearing the pants in the relationship)?

- You have openly discussed these issues with her, done the best you can to look at things from her POV? Do you feel she has done the same for you (i.e. try to understand your POV)?

- Do you feel that having an active sex life (obviously by how you define active) is important to you to help maintain the emotional bond you have with your W?

- Overall, you are happy with your marriage, but don't like the fact that an important component (physical) is low on the list (i.e. it is viewed more as a chore)? You are not looking to leave her over this, just an area where you would like to see improvement and one you think would lead to a more fulfilling marriage?

That is all I got


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Ok


We may very well be speaking different languages .. and that will make conversation difficult.

But go back and read your posts, and you are essentially saying that women mean something entirely different by HD, and have no idea what it means to want sex. Your rhetorical question shows you already think you have the answers/

To which I say, bs. 

My experience with TAM is that it is chock full of easy answers to women's sexuality that will help no one and solve no problems. And if you wish to stick with those easy answers.... well, it's your life.

But these easy answers aren't actually going to help you. They will just give you a bunch of rationalizations where you get to feel how great you are as opposed to how awful women are.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> We may very well be speaking different languages .. and that will make conversation difficult.
> 
> But go back and read your posts, and you are essentially saying that women mean something entirely different by HD, and have no idea what it means to want sex. Your rhetorical question shows you already think you have the answers/
> 
> ...


Please don't tell me what I "essentially said". If you and @Faithful Wife want to accuse me of something again, please quote a paragraph that gave you this impression so that I can explain better what I meant, rather that *you* explaining to me what I meant.

I can't stand it when people do this and it is not a good etiquette how to have a civilized conversation on forums.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> We may very well be speaking different languages .. and that will make conversation difficult.
> 
> But go back and read your posts, and you are essentially saying that women mean something entirely different by HD, and have no idea what it means to want sex. Your rhetorical question shows you already think you have the answers/
> 
> ...


Sorry, which answers are supposed to be easy and make me feel "great"? What are you going on about?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Actually the reason I mentioned your posts sometimes sound a little made-upp-ish, is that there are so many generalities about how sex is "supposed to feel like" and about how you view yourself from a certain, sexual angle but it's very thin on specifics (actual technique and specific experiences).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Hmmm...there's something about some of your posts that sounds...made up? Or maybe they are designed to get a reaction from people who don't know better.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Please, tell me what you meant then. 

I have been reading at TAM for some time now, and these sorts of stereotypes about women are rife and cannot, apparently, ever be corrected because anyone who attempts to do is "making stuff up", as rare as unicorns, and can't even understand what sex is about. We just try to "trap" men by "pretending" that we like sex.


inmyprime said:


> Please don't tell me what I "essentially said". If you and @Faithful Wife want to accuse me of something again, please quote a paragraph that gave you this impression so that I can explain better what I meant, rather that *you* explaining to me what I meant.
> 
> I can't stand it when people do this and it is not a good etiquette on how to have a civilized conversation on forums.





inmyprime said:


> *It's difficult for me to believe that somebody like you exists in real life *maybe for the same reason you believe I am making this stuff up. I have to say *I always found "in your face, too sexually forward" women off putting* (not talking about you). Maybe partly those were the same reasons you find "swagger" off putting. It's a a way to get attention and when it comes to quality sex, it is all superficial and may not be all as "advertised". But I don't care about it. I care about what my wife feels.
> 
> Actually the reason I mentioned your posts sometimes* sound a little made-upp-ish, i*s that there are so many generalities about how sex is "supposed to feel like" and about how you view yourself from a certain, sexual angle but it's very thin on specifics (actual technique and specific experiences). A bit like horoscopes. That's not to say horoscopes cannot be entertaining but there is a high probability that the way WE view ourselves is not that close to the way we actually are or the way *others* view us. It is one thing to project a certain image on a forum and quite another go about living a life as a real person.
> 
> ...





inmyprime said:


> Hmmm...there's something about some of your posts that sounds...made up?





inmyprime said:


> Like I wrote,* I was always put off by the forwardness, *with which the willingness to engage in any kind of sex act was advertised by women/girls. Real life is very different from cyber world. In RL, it felt forced and unnatural because *many women know it's something that men like to hear (*and your remark kind of proves it) and know how that it's a way to get men interested. S*ome women also mistake HD for the need to receive affection* (which many men are either incapable of giving in the way that their "HD" partner desires or find it plain tiring). Holding hands in public, caress each other all day long, give each other compliments ad nauseam...all this can easily be mistaken for actual desire to have sex with your partner. All this then can result in the woman then deciding: "no man can live up to my HD. He's not paying me enough attention".


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Not the made up ones, no. the real ones are too busy having sex


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> jade - that women who pretend to these things on the internet aren't real IRL.
> 
> inmyprime - What?? I said no such thing.
> 
> ...


Well, someone said it


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> jade - that women who pretend to these things on the internet aren't real IRL.
> 
> inmyprime - What?? I said no such thing.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point! Inmyprime has already decided what women are and what we are capable of and anything that might possibly challenge that is "made up" or "off-putting" or somehow demonstrates that women don't even know what sex is.

It's a common theme here, but a pernicious one that actually serves only to ensure that women's voices aren't aired or heard.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

This is like being on trial in North Korea where comprehension seems to be a one-sided affair:

How is writing "It's difficult for me to believe that somebody like you exists in real life" the same as stating that *women who pretend to these things on the internet aren't real IRL*??

My sentence *in no way denies* the existence of *HD women in real life*, firstly, because I am talking about @Faithful Wife specifically, and secondly, because I am prefacing it with "it's difficult for me to believe".

How do you manage to connect A to...whatever agenda it is you are pursuing? And make it sound as if I made a categorical statement about all HD women? I have absolutely no reason to doubt that women with a high sex drive exist in real life. These posts were specifically concerning the internet character of Faithful Wife and how her perceptions of men troubled me.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

She explained "just how she is and don't try to change her". 
You even wrote...this is all well and good .
You were accepting behaviour that was unacceptable to you.
Now, you aren't going to do that.
Maybe just really clearly explain that to her. That now, today, you aren't compatible with how things are. (You probably did, didn't you?) but because you accepted it before it's hard to believe.
FYI the need to blame everyone else and the reactive emotions to conversations are controlling behaviour and often narcissistic in nature. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Exactly my point! Inmyprime has already decided what women are and what we are capable of and anything that might possibly challenge that is "made up" or "off-putting" or somehow demonstrates that women don't even know what sex is.
> 
> It's a common theme here, but a pernicious one that actually serves only to ensure that women's voices aren't aired or heard.


I can't argue with that logic. At no point did I make generalisations about women of the kind you are accusing me of. 

I have absolutely no idea where you are getting these slogans from.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am now speaking as a mod.

IMP - you implied that FW is a troll. She isn't. And ummm - as you have now discovered she is not fun to brawl with. 

FW and WJ: You have made your point. I don't blame you for doing so - but - you have now reached the 'eye for an eye' threshold. 

All three of you: Continue and I will begin giving vacations. Which I actually do not like to do. 

Peace





inmyprime said:


> This is like being on trial in North Korea where comprehension seems to be a one-sided affair:
> 
> How is writing "It's difficult for me to believe that somebody like you exists in real life" the same as stating that *women who pretend to these things on the internet aren't real IRL*??
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> @alexm
> 
> OK, so thought maybe this might be helpful since I feel like some of the issues you have described have gotten twisted around a little. Maybe you can confirm/clarify:
> 
> ...


She likely already thinks she is "sharing responsibility" for their sex life. He wants more.

It always seems funny to me to hear words like "responsibility" and "accountability" used in terms of having more sex. I mean, I could understand if we were talking about birth control. 

But sex is like dessert. Who ever heard of "sharing responsibility" or "accountability" for making sure more dessert gets eaten?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.
> 
> Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.


I'm not knocking how you feel, yet I honestly can't relate to any of what you have written as quoted above. I don't obsess about the past, nor worry about the future and I do enjoy life in the moment. Even when bad things happen I don't dwell on that which cannot be changed, such experiences just form part of the rich tapestry of my life.

I get the impression that you think all people share feeling that way. Yet despite knowing that some people feel that way, what you describe is alien to me.

That said you seem to be very inward looking to the point that it may not benefit you, so am I right to presume you are an introvert?

On the other hand my wife read your post and says she can relate to how you feel (she's an introvert). She told me when she was younger, she had a tendency to look inward and worry about the future, while dwelling on the past all while missing the moment.

Yet she says she is concerned that your thinking is not healthy for you and those you care for (she describes it as paralysing). She also would like you to know that life changed for the better. When she realised her approach wasn't healthy and that there was no benefit to be had in worrying about the past or future. My wife thinks you might be depressed, she thinks it can be easy to wallow, yet it helps when you catch yourself doing this and talk yourself out of feeling that way.

Sometimes you just need to listen to some good music, put your life into perspective and stop worrying about crap that you can't change. It doesn't help to make yourself sick with worry, to the point you're missing out on living in the moment. She says it isn't easy and recommends that you not talk about this to people who will encourage you to wallow.

She also suggest writing it down, so that you can realise you're making things seem bigger than they are. Plus watch that Walter Mitty movie, not the Danny Kaye one which is good as well but the Ben Stiller one which captures some of this.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Medium drive (MD) is awesome by the way :surprise:. So I generally believe when someone says they want it once a year and I believe when someone else says they want it once every 4 hours. So long as they are both with compatible partners then all is well.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Inmyprime, per Personal's post, do you know what your MBTI (Myers-Briggs Type Inventory) profile is?

Some personality types may be more inclined to deep reflection, maybe even over-reflection. Finding out your profile and learning how other people with it are coping with similar issues might be helpful.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I am now speaking as a mod.
> 
> IMP - you implied that FW is a troll. She isn't. And ummm - as you have now discovered she is not fun to brawl with.
> 
> ...


Calling me an Imp is not exactly politically correct either, your honour 

I will cease and desist.

I am sorry for any misunderstanding caused.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

.Dear MEM,

What I had here was a series of quotes that showed that inmyprime said absolutely exactly what I summarized. 

I'm very sorry to hear that providing evidence for one's POV is considered an eye for an eye on this forum -- particularly when I was directly questioned about where I got that POV from and challenged on its veracity. 

IMHO, it robs the conversation of any potential to get at the wider issue -- those pesky underlying attitudes that generate exactly the results that we're desperately trying to avoid. 

But I will comply.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Personal said:


> I'm not knocking how you feel, yet I honestly can't relate to any of what you have written as quoted above. I don't obsess about the past, nor worry about the future and I do enjoy life in the moment. Even when bad things happen I don't dwell on that which cannot be changed, such experiences just form part of the rich tapestry of my life.
> 
> I get the impression that you think all people share feeling that way. Yet despite knowing that some people feel that way, what you describe is alien to me.
> 
> ...


That's very kind. I hasten to add that this thinking doesn't especially trouble or "paralyses" me, I don't think. I am used to it by now  For me, it is just a fact of life, like anything else. I don't think so much that I "wallow" in this state, just that I seem to be able to acutely perceive the futility of the idea of 'living the moment'. Our experience of this world is comprised of a series of moments, one after the other. It's not continuous, like a tape, but more like a series of blocks which our brain either registers or passes. Our brain can *only* register a block once it has passed the _present_ point on the timeline so by definition, we have no ability to "live in the moment" or hold onto it. We can only imagine that we do or we can hold on to our memories. Essentially our whole life (and everything that makes us, us) is basically a memory. 

It's also to do with the way we perceive the flow of time. In my particular "job", in order to perform a task (which requires an abnormal amount of concentration), my mind has to be in a certain state. Time flows differently in this state. It almost stands still for me or barely flows. I can sometimes reproduce this state during meditation but it's not always possible. I guess that's partly why I am more aware of the "moment" thing...

To me, "anticipation" always felt more real than the idea of "living in the moment" because it is a dynamic feeling, not a static one. Nothing in life seems to be static, under normal conditions, so striving for it as an ideal, seems also futile.

I don't mean to "spread the blues"! It is true in a way that it is "healthier" to relinquish control and just "go with the flow"... So maybe JLD is right, it *is* about control after all


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There was no semantic intended with that abbreviation. InMyPrime = IMP.

I abbreviate all long names. If you prefer a different abbreviation I am glad to oblige. 

I did not intend to insult and apologize if I did. 




inmyprime said:


> Calling me an Imp is not exactly politically correct either, your honour
> 
> I will cease and desist.
> 
> I am sorry for any misunderstanding caused.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> There was no semantic intended with that abbreviation. InMyPrime = IMP.
> 
> I abbreviate all long names. If you prefer a different abbreviation I am glad to oblige.
> 
> I did not intend to insult and apologize if I did.


Please don't! I was joking and trying to "live up" to my abbreviation 

I like this abbreviation.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I haven't posted for a while, but I'm very surprised to see the OP still banging (no pun intended) about the same problem... you know what to do, really. Things are not going to change. Take it or leave it and stop complaining if you take it. Having said that, I guess you need to vent from time to time... :smile2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> She likely already thinks she is "sharing responsibility" for their sex life. He wants more.


The point was for Alex to answer what he felt, not you trying to answer on behalf of his wife :wink2: That is where a disconnect could very well be, she feels like she is doing her part where he doesn't quite see it that way.

Then again, I will cut you some slack this one time since apparently from that other thread you seem to have some way out of left field idea what my sex frequency was lol.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> The point was for Alex to answer what he felt, not you trying to answer on behalf of his wife :wink2: That is where a disconnect could very well be, she feels like she is doing her part where he doesn't quite see it that way.


You are not the only person here who seems to think in terms of "responsibility" and "accountability" when it comes to sex. I have seen other men do the same thing.

I do not think it is going to be helpful to any of you to frame it in those terms, even in your own minds. It is likely just going to increase your resentment.

And it can only help Alex to consider what his wife's pov may be, without anyone's demonizing it in any way. We do not want to foster animosity towards her. I do not see how that would be helpful, anyway.



> Then again, I will cut you some slack this one time since apparently from that other thread you seem to have some way out of left field idea what my sex frequency was lol.


You posted a few months ago that you had sex twice in a week, I believe in Lila's thread. I understood that to be your normal frequency, not a one time thing. That is why I could not understand why you were so dissatisfied.

But hearing that you have only had it three times since New Year's . . . Yes, I can understand your frustration.

You guys might want to reconsider your seemingly common opposition to duty sex. It shows an effort on her part, and can be a gateway to more, if you play your cards right. A little humor, some genuine appreciation, emotional and physical nurturing--these things can increase her interest, at least for some women. I don't really see what any of you would have to lose by trying, anyway.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> You are not the only person here who seems to think in terms of "responsibility" and "accountability" when it comes to sex. I have seen other men do the same thing.
> 
> I do not think it is going to be helpful to any of you to frame it in those terms, even in your own minds. It is likely just going to increase your resentment.
> 
> And it can only help Alex to consider what his wife's pov may be, without anyone's demonizing it in any way. We do not want to foster animosity towards her. I do not see how that would be helpful, anyway.


Not sure what this had to do with my post. As I mentioned, I was simply asking Alex questions to get a sense of what he thought. 

We obviously have a different POV on accountability/responsibility, so not sure why you keep pushing this as if you are the one with the right POV




jld said:


> You posted a few months ago that you had sex twice in a week, I believe in Lila's thread. I understood that to be your normal frequency, not a one time thing. That is why I could not understand why you were so dissatisfied.
> 
> But hearing that you have only had it three times since New Year's . . . Yes, I can understand your frustration.
> 
> You guys might want to reconsider your seemingly common opposition to duty sex.* It shows an effort on her part, and can be a gateway to more, if you play your cards right. A little humor, some genuine appreciation, emotional and physical nurturing--these things can increase her interest, at least for some women. I don't really see what any of you would have to lose by trying, anyway.*


So you took me posting that I had sex twice in a week as that being my normal frequency lol 

Also, not sure what your comments above about duty sex has to do with my post, I made no reference to here nor have I stated my thoughts on. Also, I love the bolded and how you blindly assume none of that is happening ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> She likely already thinks she is "sharing responsibility" for their sex life. He wants more.
> 
> It always seems funny to me to hear words like "responsibility" and "accountability" used in terms of having more sex. I mean, I could understand if we were talking about birth control.
> 
> But sex is like dessert. Who ever heard of "sharing responsibility" or "accountability" for making sure more dessert gets eaten?


I agree with this very much.

For 20-something years of my ~27 being sexually active, sex just happened. 14 of these years was with a woman who I was not physically compatible with - yet we never had to discuss sex (other than what we could each do to overcome the physical incompatibilities.)

If one of us was in the mood, we'd reach out to the other, and that's all there was to it. Words like 'initiation' and 'duty sex' and 'LD/HD' were not in my vocabulary. Nor were discussions of frequency and the like. It always just happened. It _just happened_.

The sex was not good, but we tried. Nobody felt unwanted or less of a priority in this regard. We each did our best with what we had.

Ultimately, she wanted more (and I believe part of that was sexually), and we didn't last. Whether she found a more physically compatible partner or not, I don't know. Her sexual limitations were partly non-partner-specific (ie. wouldn't matter who she was with) and partly specific to me.

Up until my mid-late 30's, I thought that two people who love each other just have sex. I didn't keep track of how much or how little I was having - it was a non-issue. I didn't take it for granted, either.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Not sure what this had to do with my post. As I mentioned, I was simply asking Alex questions to get a sense of what he thought.
> 
> We obviously have a different POV on accountability/responsibility, so not sure why you keep pushing this as if you are the one with the right POV


I think your pov could be holding you back. Same for the other men.

The goal is for you to be able to break through that and move forward, at least imo.



> So you took me posting that I had sex twice in a week as that being my normal frequency lol
> 
> Also, not sure what your comments above about duty sex has to do with my post, I made no reference to here nor have I stated my thoughts on. Also, I love the bolded and how you blindly assume none of that is happening ...


I think if enough of it were happening, many of you would be getting different results.

But that is based on desire being largely emotional rather than biological.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

In Absentia said:


> I haven't posted for a while, but I'm very surprised to see the OP still banging (no pun intended) about the same problem... you know what to do, really. Things are not going to change. Take it or leave it and stop complaining if you take it. Having said that, I guess you need to vent from time to time... :smile2:


You're not the first long-time TAM poster to pop into this thread and say the same thing 

I thought my OP was me actually heeding the advice I'd been given here for too long, but it also seems to me that a handful of older posters may not be seeing this and/or reading the thread title and the first two sentences and saying to themselves "oh god, not again".

Trying to change my wife has not worked. I was told this numerous times over the years, but I did not listen (or want to listen). Now I am. I'm changing how I think about, and approach this subject. Truthfully, I didn't want to change, and there's a part of me that feels I shouldn't HAVE to, but I have no other recourse - as many folks have repeatedly told me over the years.

So how is this thread the 'same old, same old'?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> I think your pov could be holding you back. Same for the other men.
> 
> The goal is for you to be able to break through that and move forward, at least imo.
> .


Um, since you don't know much about my situation, once again, interesting that you make such an assumption ... It is your opinion though and of course you are welcomed to, so no worries.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I agree with this very much.
> 
> For 20-something years of my ~27 being sexually active, sex just happened. 14 of these years was with a woman who I was not physically compatible with - yet we never had to discuss sex (other than what we could each do to overcome the physical incompatibilities.)
> 
> ...


Is it possible you didn't analyse the whole thing as much as you do now? Combined with the lower frequency and the (now that you discovered it) regularity/scheduling on her part, perhaps it is making you extra sensitive?
Part of me feels that if we truly understand that our partner's intentions are neither malicious or deliberate, it might help us come to terms with it better. After all, different people are different people.
Before I found TAM, I had no idea what was "normal", or more importantly, what one can expect, tolerate or feel. I thought that whatever was happening in my marriage: that is what's normal. The rest was *my* problem (I still feel i cannot completely detach myself as a non-integral part of the issue). But something didn't feel quite right. Then I found out that there are many more who experience exactly the same or very similar issues in their marriage dynamic. I don't think it is fatal but I don't want to use a wrong "method" to try and fix it, and break it even more.

Have you not had "the talk" with her? I have those periodically...when the balance tips and it really starts to bother me more than I can bear. It then gets better for a period of time (but also sometimes confuses her, I have a feeling) but eventually settles back to "normal".

Another solution might be: relativism. It could be much, *much *worse  The sex could be awful or she could be flat out ignoring you. Probably sounds worse than what you have now, no?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Um, since you don't know much about my situation, once again, interesting that you make such an assumption ... It is your opinion though and of course you are welcomed to, so no worries.


I think JLD is just shooting at different possibilities, in the dark, to see if any of those ring true. She can't "assume" anything because she does not know enough about the situation. She's trying to help 

Tricky, this forum stuff, to get the tone right without triggering an avalanche with these very emotional topics....(not saying you are over reacting).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I think JLD is just shooting at different possibilities, in the dark, to see if any of those ring true. She can't "assume" anything because she does not know enough about the situation. She's trying to help
> 
> Tricky, this forum stuff, to get the tone right without triggering an avalanche with these very emotional topics....(not saying you are over reacting).


Yes, definitely trying to help, by being as honest as I can be about what I see.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

alexm said:


> You're not the first long-time TAM poster to pop into this thread and say the same thing
> 
> I thought my OP was me actually heeding the advice I'd been given here for too long, but it also seems to me that a handful of older posters may not be seeing this and/or reading the thread title and the first two sentences and saying to themselves "oh god, not again".
> 
> ...


well, obviously, I have to apologise because I haven't been around and jumped to conclusions too quickly. I disappeared because I was dealing with my own issues, my marriage, my wife, the death of my father. I'm glad you changed, but, like me, it doesn't look it's making you happy. Things have become even worse for me. Not trying to change my wife, not pressurising, leaving the damn sex thing alone have just played in the hands of my wife, who has slipped even further into inaction. The truth is, of you are dealing with a LD or even with an extreme LD, leaving them alone doesn't work. You are legitimating their behaviour, you are telling them it's ok. There's nothing wrong with being LD - I'd like to stress this - but you would expect a little effort. I'd love to have it once a week, but this is not the point. The point is when there is such a gap, both partners should make an effort. To be honest, I feel used too. She told me I should leave if I didn't like it, that she wasn't going to change. I accepted it, stayed, things got better, but now we are back to square one, to the point that my "plan" is still in place.

What I'm getting at is that you are changing for your wife and your wife is not changing for you. That hurts. A lot. You are not happy. And I can only tell you that it will get worse. Sorry, but I'm not very optimistic. But you have a choice.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> I think JLD is just shooting at different possibilities, in the dark, to see if any of those ring true. She can't "assume" anything because she does not know enough about the situation. She's trying to help
> 
> Tricky, this forum stuff, to get the tone right without triggering an avalanche with these very emotional topics....(not saying you are over reacting).


I have a different take on her posts and tone (not just specific to this thread by any means). I will leave it at that :grin2:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

In Absentia said:


> well, obviously, I have to apologise because I haven't been around and jumped to conclusions too quickly. I disappeared because I was dealing with my own issues, my marriage, my wife, the death of my father. I'm glad you changed, but, like me, it doesn't look it's making you happy. Things have become even worse for me. Not trying to change my wife, not pressurising, leaving the damn sex thing alone have just played in the hands of my wife, who has slipped even further into inaction. The truth is, of you are dealing with a LD or even with an extreme LD, leaving them alone doesn't work. You are legitimating their behaviour, you are telling them it's ok. There's nothing wrong with being LD - I'd like to stress this - but you would expect a little effort. I'd love to have it once a week, but this is not the point. The point is when there is such a gap, both partners should make an effort. To be honest, I feel used too. She told me I should leave if I didn't like it, that she wasn't going to change. I accepted it, stayed, things got better, but now we are back to square one, to the point that my "plan" is still in place.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that you are changing for your wife and your wife is not changing for you. That hurts. A lot. You are not happy. And I can only tell you that it will get worse. Sorry, but I'm not very optimistic. But you have a choice.


I think the gist of it all is that I'm changing for me, not for her. I'm not thrilled to be doing so - I wish it didn't come to this, but it is what it is. I'm not _un_happy, I'm just not thrilled with the sex side of things in the marriage.

Nutshell - this isn't a tactic on my part to change her. It's a self-preservation tactic for myself, and ultimately the marriage.

That said, I will never, never let it get to the 'no sex' realm, ever.

Fortunately, my wife does care about me and my needs, in her own way. I'd like to believe she always will, but that is TBD.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with this very much.
> ...


The problem I see here with understanding that our partner's intentions are "neither malicious or deliberate" is that sometimes they really are. Sometimes partners are dysfunctional and have unaddressed issues, and they just don't care, they think the person they are with just needs to deal with the dysfunction and whatever issues it creates in a relationship.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

alexm said:


> I think the gist of it all is that I'm changing for me, not for her. I'm not thrilled to be doing so - I wish it didn't come to this, but it is what it is. I'm not _un_happy, I'm just not thrilled with the sex side of things in the marriage.
> 
> Nutshell - this isn't a tactic on my part to change her. It's a self-preservation tactic for myself, and ultimately the marriage.
> 
> ...



Glad to hear that... you need to protect your sanity... :smile2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I think the gist of it all is that I'm changing for me, not for her. I'm not thrilled to be doing so - I wish it didn't come to this, but it is what it is. I'm not _un_happy, I'm just not thrilled with the sex side of things in the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There's a little hint of suspicion there, right at the end 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> The problem I see here with understanding that our partner's intentions are "neither malicious or deliberate" is that sometimes they really are. Sometimes partners are dysfunctional and have unaddressed issues, and they just don't care, they think the person they are with just needs to deal with the dysfunction and whatever issues it creates in a relationship.




Of course sometimes they are. I'm not sure in Alex's case it is the case.
Have to go on a case by case basis.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> I think the gist of it all is that I'm changing for me, not for her. I'm not thrilled to be doing so - I wish it didn't come to this, but it is what it is. I'm not _un_happy, I'm just not thrilled with the sex side of things in the marriage.
> 
> Nutshell - this isn't a tactic on my part to change her. It's a self-preservation tactic for myself, and ultimately the marriage.
> 
> ...


I don't think you need to live like this. Why not keep the issue on the front burner in your marriage instead of settling? She obviously cares about you- so if you continue making it an issue with her, she'll need to address it. Did you say you've tried sex therapy with her? I ask because there could be an issue there related to her Low desire and limitations on sex. 

Duty sex once a week might be enough for some marriages- but not in your marriage. And that's ok.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Just throwing the LD perspective out there. 

I never felt, as a LD female, that it was up to a male to "fix" me -- or to guide me in any way and most certainly not guide me sexually. I fully accept myself as I am. Obviously, sexuality is complicated and we are all not the same. I tried very hard during my marriage to be who he wanted. I completely did that for him because he was important to me. I couldn't have ever cared less about sex but I did want to please my husband and make him happy. Did I succeed? Well, he cheated so apparently not. Do I wish I had been different? Again, only for him -- not for me. You don't miss something you don't want.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> I don't think you need to live like this. Why not keep the issue on the front burner in your marriage instead of settling?


Because she might get sufficiently upset with all the hassle and divorce him. He wants to stay married to her more than he wants a great sex life with her.

Some would say he made his choice and and he should make the best of it.

Some of us prefer to polish our resentment. After all, it is so smooth and shiny and lustrous. And resentment is a wonderful mistress. She is always there for you. She is never "not in the mood". She always gets you off. Of course, you end up dying from the poison. But we all die in the end anyway, don't we? At least this way you get some choice / agency / control. One thing the LD cannot do is prevent you from resenting them. That is 100% up to me. Oh, so you want to have 100% control of MY sex life? Well, I will show you what control is all about!!!!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> Because she might get sufficiently upset with all the hassle and divorce him. He wants to stay married to her more than he wants a great sex life with her.
> 
> Some would say he made his choice and and he should make the best of it.
> 
> Some of us prefer to polish our resentment. After all, it is so smooth and shiny and lustrous. And resentment is a wonderful mistress. She is always there for you. She is never "not in the mood". She always gets you off. Of course, you end up dying from the poison. But we all die in the end anyway, don't we? At least this way you get some choice / agency / control. One thing the LD cannot do is prevent you from resenting them. That is 100% up to me. Oh, so you want to have 100% control of MY sex life? Well, I will show you what control is all about!!!!


Long-term resentment (like anger) is also linked to health issues. So is lack of sex. This is not a healthy way to live, IMO.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Openminded said:


> Just throwing the LD perspective out there.
> 
> I never felt, as a LD female, that it was up to a male to "fix" me -- or to guide me in any way and most certainly not guide me sexually. I fully accept myself as I am. Obviously, sexuality is complicated and we are all not the same. I tried very hard during my marriage to be who he wanted. I completely did that for him because he was important to me. I couldn't have ever cared less about sex but I did want to please my husband and make him happy. Did I succeed? Well, he cheated so apparently not. Do I wish I had been different? Again, only for him -- not for me. You don't miss something you don't want.


Do you feel that if a spouse's low desire is a struggle for the marriage, it is in the best interest of the marriage to investigate options/ideas for a solution? I ask because low desire is a common issue sex therapists see in their practice. I think in marriage, if anything is a problem for your spouse, you want to try to get help and work together to find a solution that will work for both of you. 

And I would argue that your husband's decision to cheat was not your fault. He could have been honest with you and told you the marriage was no longer going to work for him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jessica,
There is a mix of science and art to playing with an LD. The beauty of LDs is they are exactly the same as HDs - sans the raw drive. They want to be understood and accepted. 

Engagement and passion are completely different things yes? 

If M2 seemed dis-engaged - which has happened less than a handful of times - I stop and ask if she's ok.

But I never comment about the level of passion. You get what you get. Or perhaps - what you generate / inspire. 

Noticing and complaining are different. It's ok to ask if you are doing stuff that's a turn off - not doing stuff they maybe want more of. But people can tell - when your focus is on their quality of life as opposed to your ego. 

And my reflexive response to any answer to those types questions is: thank you for telling me that 





Jessica38 said:


> Do you feel that if a spouse's low desire is a struggle for the marriage, it is in the best interest of the marriage to investigate options/ideas for a solution? I ask because low desire is a common issue sex therapists see in their practice. I think in marriage, if anything is a problem for your spouse, you want to try to get help and work together to find a solution that will work for both of you.
> 
> And I would argue that your husband's decision to cheat was not your fault. He could have been honest with you and told you the marriage was no longer going to work for him.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Jessica,
> 
> There is a mix of science and art to playing with an LD. The beauty of LDs is they are exactly the same as HDs - sans the raw drive. They want to be understood and accepted.
> 
> ...



Couldn't asking if she was ok not be misconstrued as a mild form of 'noticing', putting the spouse on the spot, so to speak?

Playing devil's advocate for a moment (kind of, I'm actually curious): is it fair to label someone being LD as being the one with the problem? Why is being HD not a problem? Is it because there are not as many threads with LD partners coming forward? Is the LD/HD struggle asymmetrical? 
Who determines what "amount" of passion is the "correct" amount to give us the right to even bring it up as a problem?
Or is it a question of whoever shouts the loudest, must be on the suffering side?



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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Jessica38: Never said it was healthy. But relaxing into resentment is less stressful than fretting over what you are not getting and urgently banging your head against the wall vainly trying to get it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Just throwing the LD perspective out there.
> 
> I never felt, as a LD female, that it was up to a male to "fix" me -- or to guide me in any way and most certainly not guide me sexually. I fully accept myself as I am. Obviously, sexuality is complicated and we are all not the same. I tried very hard during my marriage to be who he wanted. I completely did that for him because he was important to me. I couldn't have ever cared less about sex but I did want to please my husband and make him happy. Did I succeed? Well, he cheated so apparently not. Do I wish I had been different? Again, only for him -- not for me. You don't miss something you don't want.


Then the answer is to not get into an LTR Without explaining reality to a partner.

I dated two (great picker huh 😁) such women. One had a very hard case of CSA and was up front about it. Incredible mind. We dated for quite a while while in college back home, then she went her way for grad school and I went my way. She never married, or gotten into an LTR. We communicate on and off. 

The second is an ethnicity / culture induced LD that again knew her limits and focused on work and fun. We're friends on Facebook, she is very happy alone. We dated in grad school 30 odd years ago, she wasn't into it. Not with me, not with anyone.

This clarity is what's needed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Couldn't asking if she was ok not be misconstrued as a mild form of 'noticing', putting the spouse on the spot, so to speak?
> 
> Playing devil's advocate for a moment (kind of, I'm actually curious): is it fair to label someone being LD as being the one with the problem? Why is being HD not a problem? Is it because there are not as many threads with LD partners coming forward? Is the LD/HD struggle asymmetrical?
> Who determines what "amount" of passion is the "correct" amount to give us the right to even bring it up as a problem?
> ...


I know sex therapists help couples with the issue of expectations, alternatives, and communication too, as well as underlying causes of low desire, which in many cases, may have nothing to do with their spouse and more to do with stress, etc. In some cases, it could be about something the HD spouse could do to improve the frequency. There are many reasons that are different for every couple- and often, couples have a hard time communicating those differences, which is why a trained sex therapist can help. They are used to talking about these issues with clients.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Let me be more specific. 

I guess I think of engagement as the level of focus and being present. Maybe even to a degree a measure of your partners desire to please you. 

This is separate from their arousal level. 

Since low engagement level - usually means - the other person doesn't really want to be there. It would feel selfish not to pause and give them a chance to stop the show. 

The extreme end of this is what folks call starfish sex - where their partner just lies there and let's them have sex with her body. 

And I don't see the LD as having a problem. I am merely describing a way for people to bridge a desire gap. 




inmyprime said:


> Couldn't asking if she was ok not be misconstrued as a mild form of 'noticing', putting the spouse on the spot, so to speak?
> 
> Playing devil's advocate for a moment (kind of, I'm actually curious): is it fair to label someone being LD as being the one with the problem? Why is being HD not a problem? Is it because there are not as many threads with LD partners coming forward? Is the LD/HD struggle asymmetrical?
> Who determines what "amount" of passion is the "correct" amount to give us the right to even bring it up as a problem?
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LDs on TAM can sometimes be treated the same way non-exclusive spouses are treated. I think that is why we do not hear from them as much.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Let me be more specific.
> 
> I guess I thing of engagement as the level of focus and being present. Maybe even to a degree a measure of your partners desire to please you.
> 
> ...


First - Holdingontoit - I laughed at loud at "polish the resentment". That is such a great term for something I think we all do. A guilty pleasure really. Sometimes it feels good to throw yourself a pity party and Polish the resentment!

MEM - I agree with you that I think engagement and arousal are two different things, and that you need a mix of both to have a successful sex life. 

I am LD and therefore my natural arousal level is low. I WISH it were higher. If there were a female Viagra, I'd be taking it! I've experienced spells of high arousal periodically and when that happens, it doesn't take anything for me to be fully "engaged" and I don't even care what else is going on in our marriage at that moment. We could be in the middle of a huge fight and I'd be hitting the pause button to get in bed with him because my natural arousal level is high and I feel like I NEED it. 

When I'm not in one of those rare periods, I have very little to no natural arousal. So I have to work to engage myself in the act enough to even get to the point where I can begin to get aroused. I'm miserable at it, really. I am not good at focusing, and letting everything else go. If I've got a lot on my mind - and I always do - it is very very hard for me to shift gears into being engaged with him and letting him try to get me aroused. I'm trying to be better about that. It's just a very hard thing to learn to do. Many times (shamefully) I will tell myself that it's just too much work to even try. And shut it down before it begins. 

Having been on both sides - experiencing high levels of arousal and low - I know that when I'm in a high period I feel like omg sex is amazing! Why aren't we doing this all the time?! But when I'm not there, it feels like dragging yourself for a run. I'm not a good runner but I force myself to do it. For the first 5-10 minutes of running I hate it. It hurts, it's uncomfortable, I feel myself start to sweat and feel gross, and my mind is overwhelmed with thoughts of ugh this is awful. Just stop it already. Why are you even doing this!

If I can get through that and get into a rhythm, I can clear my mind and then it doesn't bother me anymore. I won't say I start to enjoy running - because I don't lol. But it becomes natural and not so much a chore. I can begin to let my mind drift off and time passes much more quickly. 

I've been running for years and still have not been able to get over the first 5-10 minutes of I hate my life and this is terrible. 

I haven't been able to find an easier way into sex either. The reaction to beginning sex when I'm not naturally aroused is not quite as bad as running - I'm not grossed out or in pain, I'm just kind of psyching myself out thinking omg this is going to be so much work. I'm so tired. I could be sleeping right now. There's no way I'm going to get myself to O from this. I should just quit. It's like I naturally tense up. 

I'm 32 years old and I've been searching for the elusive answer since the beginning. My H is eager to do anything to me that I ask for - whatever I need him to do, he will do it. I just don't know how to instruct him. I can't give him an answer that I don't even have. 

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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks for that KAG.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

I don't do tired sex. If M2 seems tired - not interested. 





kag123 said:


> First - Holdingontoit - I laughed at loud at "polish the resentment". That is such a great term for something I think we all do. A guilty pleasure really. Sometimes it feels good to throw yourself a pity party and Polish the resentment!
> 
> MEM - I agree with you that I think engagement and arousal are two different things, and that you need a mix of both to have a successful sex life.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Kag,
> 
> I don't do tired sex. If M2 seems tired - not interested.


LOL!!!! If we took tired sex off the table - we would literally never do it. 

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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Jessica,
> There is a mix of science and art to playing with an LD. The beauty of LDs is they are exactly the same as HDs - sans the raw drive. They want to be understood and accepted.
> 
> Engagement and passion are completely different things yes?
> ...


But remember, you're making a judgment call about her level of disengagement and then acting on the assumption/suspicion/fear that's she's not engaged. To *some* women that feels an awful lot like "temperature taking" and can actually be perceived as pressure. 

In other words, careful not to tip her off that what she is doing is somehow so sub-par that you're not able to get into it. If that IS the case, then say, "Babe, I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it after all," but don't pin it on her. 

During sex isn't when I'd want my husband to analyze my sexual response. If he has consent, then he can keep going or he can decide to stop, but man would it kill the mood for me if he wanted to do a "check in," evaluate my answer, and then decided whether or not to continue based on my response. 

YMMV, bien sur. 

GI


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I guess it is dangerous to mention outliers - without quantifying them.

This has happened maybe 3 times in 27+ years - so frequency of occurrence is below one in a thousand. 

I only mention it because - I think people who DO have this issue on a frequent basis - might want to think about it. 

Where as passion is different. 
Orgasm rate: 60%
Clearly somewhat turned on but doesn't O: 35%
Not turned on but fully engaged: 5%






GettingIt_2 said:


> But remember, you're making a judgment call about her level of disengagement and then acting on the assumption/suspicion/fear that's she's not engaged. To *some* women that feels an awful lot like "temperature taking" and can actually be perceived as pressure.
> 
> In other words, careful not to tip her off that what she is doing is somehow so sub-par that you're not able to get into it. If that IS the case, then say, "Babe, I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it after all," but don't pin it on her.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Noticing and complaining are different. It's ok to ask if you are doing stuff that's a turn off - not doing stuff they maybe want more of. But people can tell - when your focus is on their quality of life as opposed to your ego.


That is why I stopped having sex with H2. There was never any passion. Finalized managed to take my ego out of it. At that point, there was nothing left. Wish it hadn't taken me so gosh darn long to figure that out.

And I always thank her for sharing unpleasant truths. That is the one thing I learned during MC that actually helped our marriage. I want to know all the bad stuff. I can't fix it if I don't know.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> LDs on TAM can sometimes be treated the same way non-exclusive spouses are treated. I think that is why we do not hear from them as much.


In my experience on several forums over the years, LDs tend to get treated rather gently by most HDs. I believe this is because LD participants are rare and precious participants on these forums and most HDs would love to get an answer to "why does my LD spouse not desire me?" and most HDs cannot get much of an answer out of their own LD spouse (for understandable reasons) so they are desperate to get clues from someone else's.

Yes, there are rude HDs who take out their frustration on someone else's LD. But I think the main reason that HDs tend to outnumber LDs on sex forums is that the HDs are the ones who are in distress over sex and comfortable talking about their distress and their sex life.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> I guess it is dangerous to mention outliers - without quantifying them.
> 
> This has happened maybe 3 times in 27+ years - so frequency of occurrence is below one in a thousand.
> 
> ...


Sex without orgasm has been some of the most fulfilling sex I've had. In fact, removing that "requirement" can make sex a lot more relaxing. 

Certainly, I'm not saying that every woman feels this way. But frankly, I can give myself a mind-blowing orgasm anytime I want. Mind-blowing sex with my husband is not something I can have on my own, and for me (and maybe other women?) it doesn't require an orgasm during the act itself. 

I find sex with my husband really fulfilling and sexy and fun and worthwhile and loving. . . even when I'm tired, or when my engagement could be perceived as low. 

Am I easy, or is my husband THAT good? lol!

And perhaps of some relevance: I'm an extreme sexual submissive/bottom so too much focus on my pleasure can actually be a turn off.

ETA: I meat to ask: Alex, do you see your wife as tending toward submissive in her sexual style (not talking about personality at all)? If so, it could be a piece of the puzzle. Not all of it, but a piece.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> But remember, you're making a judgment call about her level of disengagement and then acting on the assumption/suspicion/fear that's she's not engaged. To *some* women that feels an awful lot like "temperature taking" and can actually be perceived as pressure.
> 
> In other words, careful not to tip her off that what she is doing is somehow so sub-par that you're not able to get into it. If that IS the case, then say, "Babe, I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it after all," but don't pin it on her.
> 
> ...


Totally. There have been times that I needed to warm up to getting into it. My husband takes it as a challenge


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There is however - only one certain recipe for maintaining passion over time (and it requires all the usual good stuff to be in place) and that recipe requires space. Separation between the partners. 

It really is that simple. Most people CHOOSE the hyper stability that comes from frequent (daily?) contact, over passion. 

If Alex wants more sex - he needs to reduce interaction via reduced physical presence. Pretty sure he knows that. Just doesn't like the answer. 

And yes - this isn't true if you are pumped with testosterone - with high T levels you can have hyper stability AND high desire. But sans T levels - space is what creates passion. 





GettingIt_2 said:


> Sex without orgasm has been some of the most fulfilling sex I've had. In fact, removing that "requirement" can make sex a lot more relaxing.
> 
> Certainly, I'm not saying that every woman feels this way. But frankly, I can give myself a mind-blowing orgasm anytime I want. Mind-blowing sex with my husband is not something I can have on my own, and for me (and maybe other women?) it doesn't require an orgasm during the act itself.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> There is however - only one certain recipe for maintaining passion over time (and it requires all the usual good stuff to be in place) and that recipe requires space. Separation between the partners.
> 
> It really is that simple. Most people CHOOSE the hyper stability that comes from frequent (daily?) contact, over passion.
> 
> ...


I think the answer is to not be needy. But you do not have to be physically apart to not be needy, ime.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Space creates passion? I respectfully disagree.

There's 6000 sq ft between me and Mrs. ShouldBePassionate. We barely exchange a dozen sentences a day, I don't "pester" her for anything, and I let her indulge in her favorite endeavors, sleep and CNN. I rarely even bother to sleep on the same bed with her. Sharing a bed in Washington DC was quite the experience. 😎

That's my desired end game, TBH. I'm not sure the thought has occured to her yet regarding the implications of such a severe disconnect. 

True, she's got more mental health issues than the index of the DSM-IV, but remember that any theory should be stress tested with boundary conditions. I'm afraid the above doesn't.

At least she's making burgers while I stain windows 😍....


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Space doesn't work for me. Connection works best here- many women love attention and it can definitely increase desire. I know the OP said they do spend time together, but in that case, there could be a different issue.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Space doesn't work for me. *Connection works best here- many women love attention and it can definitely increase desire. *I know the OP said they do spend time together, but in that case, there could be a different issue.


Attention and affection definitely increase my desire.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

john117 said:


> Space creates passion? I respectfully disagree.
> 
> There's 6000 sq ft between me and Mrs. ShouldBePassionate. We barely exchange a dozen sentences a day, I don't "pester" her for anything, and I let her indulge in her favorite endeavors, sleep and CNN. I rarely even bother to sleep on the same bed with her. Sharing a bed in Washington DC was quite the experience.
> 
> ...




If she's got mental health issues, might be a good thing that she keeps her distance and you aren't intimate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Being together every day over a long period of time reduces female passion. Full stop. 

The physics of passion - have no polarity. They are not right or wrong. Neither good nor bad. 

They are just true. 

It is a bit odd to comment about attention - in this context. Because attention is an absolute must - unless you want to sleep on the couch on your way to a divorce. 

But there is a difference between attention when present and constant presence. 






Jessica38 said:


> Space doesn't work for me. Connection works best here- many women love attention and it can definitely increase desire. I know the OP said they do spend time together, but in that case, there could be a different issue.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Being together every day over a long period of time reduces female passion. Full stop.
> 
> Not for this female!
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

crocus said:


> If she's got mental health issues, might be a good thing that she keeps her distance and you aren't intimate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She's Fate's reminder I should have taken the clinical / behavioral track instead of the cognitive track in grad school


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Me neither, Jessica.

My desire for my husband depends on how he treats me. The more attentive and affectionate he is, the warmer I feel towards him, and the closer I want to be to him.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

How much space I need varies, how much attention and affection I want varies. I've learned just to tell him how I'm feeling and what I'd like in the moment. 

There are lots of outside variables that affect my needs in these area--unusual stressors in my life, how well I'm taking care of myself, projects that I'm working on, other relationships, where I am in my cycle, the phase the moon and even what shirt my husband is wearing. He's pretty excellent at reading me, but he knows it's *usually* better to ask me if he can help me rather than to just assume he knows what to do. 'Cause I can get pretty tetchy if I feel like he's paying too much attention to my mood or state of mind. 

I think I'm sensitive to what feels like "crowding" to me. I think to many other women, the same treatment feels like attention and affection.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Interesting. Never thought of that and seems counter intuitive.

I this true for both sides or just the LD side? 
The more I am physically present, the more I desire her, generally, but perhaps it is the opposite for the LD half? What is the reason for this?

edit: ok, read the follow up post



MEM2020 said:


> There is however - only one certain recipe for maintaining passion over time (and it requires all the usual good stuff to be in place) and that recipe requires space. Separation between the partners.
> 
> It really is that simple. Most people CHOOSE the hyper stability that comes from frequent (daily?) contact, over passion.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Sex without orgasm has been some of the most fulfilling sex I've had. In fact, removing that "requirement" can make sex a lot more relaxing.
> 
> Certainly, I'm not saying that every woman feels this way. But frankly, I can give myself a mind-blowing orgasm anytime I want. Mind-blowing sex with my husband is not something I can have on my own, and for me (and maybe other women?) it doesn't require an orgasm during the act itself.
> 
> ...


See - this is even more complicated for me right now. I USED to feel this way, before I had a diagnosable anxiety condition. The medication that I take makes it so that I really don't want to have sex unless I am going to O. The truth is that it's actually physically painful for me unless I am turned on to the point where I'm going to O no matter what. (For the record I have not told H this.) So there is no more sex without an end goal. We may go into it not explicitly stating the goal - but for me, I won't even engage unless I know I can get myself there. Otherwise it will just hurt. I didn't used to be this way.  

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> There is however - only one certain recipe for maintaining passion over time (and it requires all the usual good stuff to be in place) and that recipe requires space. Separation between the partners.
> 
> It really is that simple. Most people CHOOSE the hyper stability that comes from frequent (daily?) contact, over passion.
> 
> ...


MEM- once again I agree with you, but there is a fine line to be walked here. I usually don't do a good job at it. 

Physical distance is good. Emotional distance is bad. Sometimes it is difficult to separate the two depending on where you are in your relationship at that moment. For physical distance to work, it has to be mutually agreed upon and there can't be any resentment about it. It can't be that one spouse is actively avoiding the other or doing some other marriage killing activity. That creates emotional distance. 

I am a big proponent of space. But I am a major major introvert, and also an only child, so being alone is my M.O. I need and crave a lot of it. The problem I have is that the "distance" that I would probably find useful in creating passion would be at least several days at a time apart. That just doesn't happen in our natural relationship. A few hours or a weekly commitment doesn't really do anything for me. I've gotten used to it but the first few years that my H and I lived together were very...offputting to me at a visceral level for this reason. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

kag123 said:


> See - this is even more complicated for me right now. I USED to feel this way, before I had a diagnosable anxiety condition. The medication that I take makes it so that I really don't want to have sex unless I am going to O.* The truth is that it's actually physically painful for me unless I am turned on to the point where I'm going to O no matter what. (For the record I have not told H this.) * So there is no more sex without an end goal. We may go into it not explicitly stating the goal - but for me, I won't even engage unless I know I can get myself there. Otherwise it will just hurt. I didn't used to be this way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Why do you not tell him this?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

jld said:


> Why do you not tell him this?


My H has such a sense of ... shame?.... I'm not sure what to call it. There is no way for us to have candid conversations like this without him immediately thinking that HE is the cause of the pain. Or running away with it and his take away would be - all sex for her is painful, so don't even try. I've learned over time to filter the information I provide to him to lessen this problem. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

kag123 said:


> My H has such a sense of ... shame?.... I'm not sure what to call it. There is no way for us to have candid conversations like this without him immediately thinking that HE is the cause of the pain. Or running away with it and his take away would be - all sex for her is painful, so don't even try. I've learned over time to filter the information I provide to him to lessen this problem.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Is this hiding really building a strong relationship, though?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

He is the cause of the pain. May not be his fault be he is causing you pain. He deserves to know that. 

As one on the receiving end of a similar conversation, it may well be helpful in the long run. It's amazing how long we can maintain hope that things will improve despite years and years of disappointment. On the other hand having an actual physical thing to attribute the unsatisfactory situation to makes it a little easier to accept.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Being together every day over a long period of time reduces female passion. Full stop.
> 
> The physics of passion - have no polarity. They are not right or wrong. Neither good nor bad.
> 
> ...


I do not agree with your first sentence. It is not my experience.

If there is no passion, being together every day may be damaging as the annoying behavior from your partner will drive you insane.

But if you have a good relationship and a purpose to your life, being together for long periods of time will be very helpful. You will be able to grow your relationship uninterrupted.

I can see the usefulness of separation in tense relationships as you need some breathing room to decompress. But I would not call those relationships healthy. To reach higher levels of passion, you need the stability of presence.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Do you feel that if a spouse's low desire is a struggle for the marriage, it is in the best interest of the marriage to investigate options/ideas for a solution? I ask because low desire is a common issue sex therapists see in their practice. I think in marriage, if anything is a problem for your spouse, you want to try to get help and work together to find a solution that will work for both of you.
> 
> And I would argue that your husband's decision to cheat was not your fault. He could have been honest with you and told you the marriage was no longer going to work for him.


He was totally opposed to divorce and fought it. I reconciled (against my better judgment) the first time -- or the first time that I had actual proof of cheating -- but not the second time. He always said he loved me and maybe he did. Who knows. Decades ago, there wasn't the help available there is today. I don't know if I would have taken advantage of it had there been as I consider myself beyond help. I'm totally missing an interest in sex. It just isn't there. Not for him and not for anyone.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Openminded said:


> He was totally opposed to divorce and fought it. I reconciled (against my better judgment) the first time -- or the first time that I had actual proof of cheating -- but not the second time. He always said he loved me and maybe he did. Who knows. Decades ago, there wasn't the help available there is today. I don't know if I would have taken advantage of it had there been as I consider myself beyond help. I'm totally missing an interest in sex. It just isn't there. Not for him and not for anyone.


Would you consider yourself asexual?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

john117 said:


> Then the answer is to not get into an LTR Without explaining reality to a partner.
> 
> I dated two (great picker huh 😁) such women. One had a very hard case of CSA and was up front about it. Incredible mind. We dated for quite a while while in college back home, then she went her way for grad school and I went my way. She never married, or gotten into an LTR. We communicate on and off.
> 
> ...


My solution now that I'm divorced is not to ever be in a relationship again. And I'm happy with my life as it is. I know now that's the better path for me. But as a teenager I wasn't that introspective. I hoped I would get better. I hoped maybe it was my inexperience. But it wasn't. It's me.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

jld said:


> LDs on TAM can sometimes be treated the same way non-exclusive spouses are treated. I think that is why we do not hear from them as much.


Yes. 

It can be very uncomfortable to admit to anyone that you don't like sex and never have and can't really relate to people who do. That I don't feel something that everyone else (on TAM) does. I normally don't put my story out there for that reason. But I'm not unique in that regard, unfortunately, and so I do sometimes tell my story to try to explain the perspective of someone who is LD (or ND in my case).


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

jld said:


> Would you consider yourself asexual?


I do now. I didn't when I got married. I was young and optimistic then. Time has taught me different.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I guess it is dangerous to mention outliers - without quantifying them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Numbers are interesting, i can see potential for a new app  

My wife's O rate: 90% (the other 10% are due to the times when she doesn't want to get involved due to period or something in her mind, otherwise it would be 99%).

Passion level (this is my subjective judgement so possibly totally out): 20%

These two numbers never used to make sense to me - I am not certain why there is such a large discrepancy.
It has never happened (that I remember) that she was either not physically turned on or disengaged/starfish-like during the act. 
Perhaps because she would preempt herself from getting herself involved in the first place. Guess it's to do with knowing your body well. Strange for me to understand because I can go from 0 to 100mph in a matter of seconds, even if I think I will only be able to get to 10mph beforehand...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.
> 
> Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


I have just noticed that you wrote about having spoken to her about it...I missed it.

Another 'wacky' theory: is it possible that as we get older, our 'emotional' ability for arousal for sex also slows down? And we are not as acutely aware of it?
Or perhaps slows down quicker than our physical ability? And that we project this frustration onto our partners? (I am only talking about cases like yours and mine). 
It is then accompanied by frustration: "why is she not being more sexy with me during the week?" etc

Lets face it: looking at pure stats: "great sex once a week or more, partner totally into it, orgasms frequently" etc are not bad stats by any stretch of the imagination.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Being together every day over a long period of time reduces female passion. Full stop.
> 
> The physics of passion - have no polarity. They are not right or wrong. Neither good nor bad.
> 
> ...


Isn't the obvious conclusion to this: to give better quality attention rather than practice "distance"? Obviously two people need space but going as far as saying that "being together over long periods of time reduces female passion" seems a little extreme? Is it really the case?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> See - this is even more complicated for me right now. I USED to feel this way, before I had a diagnosable anxiety condition. The medication that I take makes it so that I really don't want to have sex unless I am going to O. The truth is that it's actually physically painful for me unless I am turned on to the point where I'm going to O no matter what. (For the record I have not told H this.) So there is no more sex without an end goal. We may go into it not explicitly stating the goal - but for me, I won't even engage unless I know I can get myself there. Otherwise it will just hurt. I didn't used to be this way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


So that's the mystery to me and I guess the female body works totally differetn in that regard: how do you know that you are or not going to orgasm *beforehand*?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Yes.
> 
> It can be very uncomfortable to admit to anyone that you don't like sex and never have and can't really relate to people who do. That I don't feel something that everyone else (on TAM) does. I normally don't put my story out there for that reason. But I'm not unique in that regard, unfortunately, and so I do sometimes tell my story to try to explain the perspective of someone who is LD (or ND in my case).


Has this been like this with all the partners you have been with? Have you been with many?
Any traumas? (apart from your ex cheating).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You have access to google 

And this is a key theme in 'mating in captivity' by perel 




inmyprime said:


> Isn't the obvious conclusion to this: to give better quality attention rather than practice "distance"? Obviously two people need space but going as far as saying that "being together over long periods of time reduces female passion" seems a little extreme? Is it really the case?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GettingIt_2 said:


> ETA: I meat to ask: Alex, do you see your wife as tending toward submissive in her sexual style (not talking about personality at all)? If so, it could be a piece of the puzzle. Not all of it, but a piece.


No, not at all. She gives as good as she gets.

If anything, I would say she's 50/50 as far as giving and taking goes, and I'm 70/30 on the giving/submissive side (but 50/50 with her, because that's what she wants)


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Has this been like this with all the partners you have been with? Have you been with many?
> Any traumas? (apart from your ex cheating).


Yes, it has always been like this but I have been with very few partners so I'm definitely no expert in the difference a partner might make. 

I have CSA in my history. Maybe that shut me down. Maybe not. I'm not sure of the impact of that. I've just never found the idea of sex appealing.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Numbers are interesting, i can see potential for a new app
> 
> My wife's O rate: 90% (the other 10% are due to the times when she doesn't want to get involved due to period or something in her mind, otherwise it would be 99%).
> 
> ...


Her numbers make perfect sense to me. I could O extremely quickly -- with zero passion -- 100% of the time. But I couldn't have cared less whether I did or didn't and wouldn't ever have tried if my husband hadn't made it a requirement (to him sex wasn't successful if I didn't).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Numbers are interesting, i can see potential for a new app
> 
> My wife's O rate: 90% (the other 10% are due to the times when she doesn't want to get involved due to period or something in her mind, otherwise it would be 99%).
> 
> ...


If we're putting numbers on this:

My wife's O rate - 100%

Passion level (_during sex_, I'm assuming?) - 95%

But she's still LD/ND/responsive desire/whatever, so everybody's different.

It's easy for some of us to sit here and wonder why, if she O's every time (multiple, at that) and when we do have sex, she's almost always completely into it - then why is this not happening more often?

And I think that's where I went wrong for all these years. From my POV, and I've said this here before, she's actually highly sexual - physically. But mentally, not at all. It's an odd combination, to be sure, but everybody's different.

When I've discussed this particular area here on TAM, many people flat-out tell me she must be faking. They assume that there's no way a woman who could care less about sex is so highly and easily and effortlessly orgasmic. It does not compute. All of the people who have stated this have been men, which is not shocking.

There is not one sexual activity that we've engaged in that she is not capable of orgasming from. Oral, manual, PIV, gspot (she squirts), and yes, anal. We've had anal sex <10 times (it's just not on our menu, so to speak) and yes she has orgasmed from that with no other stimulation. There have been times where we've done all of the above in one 20-30 minute session, and she'll have that many orgasms. It's actually rare that she only has one O during a session, and I genuinely can't even remember the last time she only had one. Oral sex on me, she swallows. She has no aversion to sex or any sex act that I can see.

The whole thing is effortless for her - when it happens.

I have yet to see here, and correct me if I'm wrong, an LD woman who does not have difficulty, or require more time to O. We have an example of this in this thread - an LD woman who will only engage in sex if she's sure she'll O.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Lets face it: looking at pure stats: "great sex once a week or more, partner totally into it, orgasms frequently" etc are not bad stats by any stretch of the imagination.


Not at all, I agree. But it's not about the quality or the quantity. It's 100% about there being no sex or sexuality whatsoever outside of a 20-40 minute window on the same day, around the same time, once per week.

I spent ~14 years having sex 3, 4, 5 times a week with a woman who wanted to, but with whom there was no physical compatibility.

I'm being genuine by saying that, if my wife and I had sex once a week, but she didn't have to 'schedule' it in, I'd be fine - especially with the quality.

The problem is, I know when and where it's going to happen, like clock work. I'm not built that way. To me (and I'm not alone in this) sex simply shouldn't be like that. I KNOW it will not happen any other time. Last weekend was a pleasant surprise, even though it was clearly a "make up" session, and really only 7 or 8 hours later than the 'norm'.

What's missing here is the anticipation and excitement and possibilities. The flirting and getting worked up. A quickie, an HJ, a BJ, one-sided oral sex on her - whatever. Anything that doesn't say "this is your window, don't miss it".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> You have access to google
> 
> And this is a key theme in 'mating in captivity' by perel


_On 9-24-10 at the annual conference of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, plenary speaker John Gottman, mentioning Esther Perel by name, said that her idea that emotional distance makes for better marital sex is contradictory to his findings. Now at the University of Washington, he has been doing research with married couples since 1980.

On 5-20-11 at the annual conference of the Massachusetts Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, I asked Terry Real whether too much intimacy could be boring, whether it was important to keep mystery in a marriage. He recognized that as Perel's idea and said that while he likes her as a person, he totally disagrees with that idea. He says intimacy is the great turn on, the pearl of great price._

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review..._2?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=2


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Yes, it has always been like this but I have been with very few partners so I'm definitely no expert in the difference a partner might make.
> 
> I have CSA in my history. Maybe that shut me down. Maybe not. I'm not sure of the impact of that. I've just never found the idea of sex appealing.


"Maybe"? Isn't the relationship between this and sex aversion, textbook? I am usually skeptical about professional help (because in my personal experience it has been very hard to find professionals intelligent enough to talk to about the problems - I was probably unlucky) but for someone with CSA (child sexual abuse?), professional help should be mandatory I would have thought.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> It's easy for some of us to sit here and wonder why, if she O's every time (multiple, at that) and when we do have sex, she's almost always completely into it - then why is this not happening more often?.


Because she does not want the frequency to increase, because in her mind its 1x per XXXXXX, and any attempt to increase that is met with resistance.

Or, as we call it in IT, SLA. She has figured that's the minimum SLA for now to keep you around. Hopefully that level will be constant.

You're always looking for complex explanations. I did too. There aren't any.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> "Maybe"? Isn't the relationship between this and sex aversion textbook? I am usually skeptical about professional help (because in my personal experience it has been very hard to find professionals intelligent enough to talk to about the problems - I was probably unlucky) but for someone with CSA (child sexual abuse?), professional help should be mandatory I would have thought.


I married a number of decades ago. I totally locked away my CSA until just a few years ago. I didn't tell anyone. 

Children often blame themselves and, certainly for my generation, were very often blamed by adults as well. It was something to deny ever happened. That thinking takes a serious toll and, yes, professional help would have been helpful.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Not at all, I agree. But it's not about the quality or the quantity. It's 100% about there being no sex or sexuality whatsoever outside of a 20-40 minute window on the same day, around the same time, once per week.
> 
> I spent ~14 years having sex 3, 4, 5 times a week with a woman who wanted to, but with whom there was no physical compatibility.
> 
> ...


It's a behavioural thing on her part. She is a different person from you so she has a different way of expressing it (duh, sorry to state the obvious). Think of it like a ladder: being in the "comfort zone" of her behaviour, she is right in the middle of that ladder. You have the ability to slightly nudge her higher or push her lower (or have her fall off that ladder completely . She has the ability to push herself in either directions too but only so far: the ladder is only of a certain length in her life. The issue is more surrounding *your* tolerance level: you have to ask yourself how important it is for you getting hung up on this one aspect with her, where everything else works perfectly (I assume). Is it worth it breaking the whole thing if she is not always capable of finding the appropriate method of showing you her desire to have sex with you with her behaviour? Can you not find a way to turn it around into something positive? (like enjoying observing the contrasts in your wife: being completely "normal" and next minute transform into a sex hungry monster when it comes to sex engagement?) I think there is room for compromise without needing to destroy something that doesn't need to be destroyed. I would not discourage you to look inwards for a possible solution 

Sorry to sound selfish but I think *your* problem has helped me understand *my* problem a bit better...I think.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Because she does not want the frequency to increase, because in her mind its 1x per XXXXXX, *and any attempt to increase that is met with resistance.*
> 
> Or, as we call it in IT, SLA. She has figured that's the minimum SLA for now to keep you around. Hopefully that level will be constant.
> 
> You're always looking for complex explanations. I did too. There aren't any.


The bolded could be a presumption that only exists in the partner's mind. It may be the correct presumption for some couples but not necessarily for Alex's wife.
I would first start with the assumption that there is no ill intent/deliberate stubbornness and work backwards, unless there are strong signs to the contrary.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Openminded said:


> I married a number of decades ago. I totally locked away my CSA until just a few years ago. I didn't tell anyone.
> 
> Children often blame themselves and, certainly for my generation, were very often blamed by adults as well. It was something to deny ever happened. That thinking takes a serious toll and, yes, professional help would have been helpful.


It's never too late? (to deal/face the issue). It's one of the worst things that can happen to a child.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> The bolded could be a presumption that only exists in the partner's mind. It may be the correct presumption for some couples but not necessarily for Alex's wife.
> I would first start with the assumption that there is no ill intent/deliberate stubbornness and work backwards, unless there are strong signs to the contrary.


It isn't intentional. Yet. But rational thinking would indicate that something that is pleasurable and desirable and has no costs per se and is highly beneficial to the relationship should not be delegated such a role.

Alternative explanations are welcome.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> _On 9-24-10 at the annual conference of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, plenary speaker John Gottman, mentioning Esther Perel by name, said that her idea that emotional distance makes for better marital sex is contradictory to his findings. Now at the University of Washington, he has been doing research with married couples since 1980.
> 
> On 5-20-11 at the annual conference of the Massachusetts Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, I asked Terry Real whether too much intimacy could be boring, whether it was important to keep mystery in a marriage. He recognized that as Perel's idea and said that while he likes her as a person, he totally disagrees with that idea. He says intimacy is the great turn on, the pearl of great price._
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review..._2?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=2


How can something like this be applied as a "general rule of thumb"? Some women will find it a turn on, some women will find it "suffocating/needy", some men will probably not be able to "show attention" in the right way too for the woman to respond int he right way, some women will not be able to respond in any circumstance.........Who comes up with these "rules" or tactics anyway? Totally partner/dynamic/situation specific.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> _On 9-24-10 at the annual conference of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, plenary speaker John Gottman, mentioning Esther Perel by name, said that her idea that emotional distance makes for better marital sex is contradictory to his findings. Now at the University of Washington, he has been doing research with married couples since 1980.
> 
> On 5-20-11 at the annual conference of the Massachusetts Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, I asked Terry Real whether too much intimacy could be boring, whether it was important to keep mystery in a marriage. He recognized that as Perel's idea and said that while he likes her as a person, he totally disagrees with that idea. He says intimacy is the great turn on, the pearl of great price._
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review..._2?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=2


The flaw in your and Gottman's view (which was mentioned further up thread) is assuming emotional and physical distance are impossible to separate.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> It isn't intentional. Yet. But rational thinking would indicate that something that is pleasurable and desirable and has no costs per se and is highly beneficial to the relationship should not be delegated such a role.
> 
> Alternative explanations are welcome.


That's because you are only able to look at it from *your* perspective! 

I think we all are to some extent "autistic" when it comes to these things, which is fine in itself but we need to learn to *recognise * it, or at least understand that this is a very distinct possibility. Because it is the *projection of intent *onto our partner that does the real damage. Not the situation itself.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> It isn't intentional. Yet. But rational thinking would indicate that something that is pleasurable and desirable and has no costs per se and is highly beneficial to the relationship should not be delegated such a role.
> 
> Alternative explanations are welcome.


They have been offered to you. You are always defensive.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> How can something like this be applied as a "general rule of thumb"? Some women will find it a turn on, some women will find it "suffocating/needy", some men will probably not be able to "show attention" in the right way too for the woman to respond int he right way, some women will not be able to respond in any circumstance.........Who comes up with these "rules" or tactics anyway? Totally partner/dynamic/situation specific.


Gottman has done a lot of research. If he says it is contradictory to his findings, I would listen.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> The flaw in your and Gottman's view (which was mentioned further up thread) is assuming emotional and physical distance are impossible to separate.


I think you and MEM do not know what else to do except physically separate from your wives. That does not mean it is necessary.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That's because you are only able to look at it from *your* perspective!
> 
> I think we all are to some extent "autistic" when it comes to these things, which is fine in itself but we need to learn to *recognise * it, or at least understand that this is a very distinct possibility. Because it is the *projection of intent *onto our partner that does the real damage. Not the situation itself.


John, I have never heard you say, "I think it really hurt my partner when I _____. " It is always blaming her and presenting yourself as a victim. How is that going to help you?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Gottman has done a lot of research. If he says it is contradictory to his findings, I would listen.


I don't dismiss it being contradictory! I postulate that I would expect nothing else *but* for the findings to be contradictory :wink2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> John, I have never heard you say, "I think it really hurt my partner when I _____. " It is always blaming her and presenting yourself as a victim. How is that going to help you?


I just want to quickly add that I have no _feel_ for John's situation because I haven't read about about it! I didn't mean to invalidate his feelings with my writing. I was focusing on Alex's situation.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I think you and MEM do not know what else to do except physically separate from your wives. That does not mean it is necessary.


So Perel's approach has no validity? 

This is not "Mating In Captivity" by Mem and Far. 

One can discount an approach does not work for them without dismissing that an approach can in fact work for someone else.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I don't dismiss it being contradictory! I postulate that I would expect nothing else *but* to be contradictory :wink2:


Not following you.

I like Esther Perel, too. Her TED talk on infidelity should be a wake up call for exclusive spouses.

But this idea that you have to be physically separate to have passion, if that is even her idea, does not ring true to me. 

You know what turns me on about my husband, what draws me in? His strength. His emotional strength. He is not needy, not whiny, does not try to manipulate me in any way. He is just low emo overall.

And he does not take things personally. He says what he thinks and we discuss, but he is totally fine if we disagree. Does not need any validation from me.

If I were a guy who thought the only way I could get some leverage in a marriage was by trying to physically distance myself from my wife, I would look to strengthen myself, first by not taking her behavior personally, and secondly by seeking to understand her and connect with her, in ways that feel connective to *her.*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I just want to quickly add that I have no _feel_ for John's situation because I haven't read about about it! I didn't mean to invalidate his feelings with my writing. I was focusing on Alex's situation.


I think we need to go beyond validating feelings (not that there is not a place for that) and challenge people to look at how changing their mindset could help their marriages. I think that is ultimately what could really help them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> So Perel's approach has no validity?
> 
> This is not "Mating In Captivity" by Mem and Far.
> 
> One can discount an approach does not work for them without dismissing that an approach can in fact work for someone else.


Have you read MiC? Full disclosure: I have not. 

But yes, I am skeptical of anything that is said to encourage distance as opposed to connection.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I think we need to go beyond validating feelings (not that there is not a place for that) and challenge people to look at how changing their mindset could help their marriages. I think that is ultimately what could really help them.


Yes but it might be just as impossible as them trying to change their partner's mindset :wink2:

Plus it needs to be done carefully: we don't have enough information to make many of these judgement calls. We have a natural bias to project our situations onto others (I am guilty of that) but it is only logical to suppose that everyone's situation is pretty unique, at the end of the day. I think the professionals take exams/study for years to do this kind of thing to make sure they don't accidentally screw up someone's life for good :|

Random thought of the day: from what I can tell, the LD/HD dynamic discussions are really quite a grey area; much more difficult to assess and discuss than when you talk about situations with facts (like situations on CWI, divorce questions etc).


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> There is not one sexual activity that we've engaged in that she is not capable of orgasming from. Oral, manual, PIV, gspot (she squirts), and yes, anal. We've had anal sex <10 times (it's just not on our menu, so to speak) and yes she has orgasmed from that with no other stimulation. There have been times where we've done all of the above in one 20-30 minute session, and she'll have that many orgasms. It's actually rare that she only has one O during a session, and I genuinely can't even remember the last time she only had one. Oral sex on me, she swallows. She has no aversion to sex or any sex act that I can see.
> 
> The whole thing is effortless for her - when it happens.
> 
> I have yet to see here, and correct me if I'm wrong, an LD woman who does not have difficulty, or require more time to O. We have an example of this in this thread - an LD woman who will only engage in sex if she's sure she'll O.


I hate to say it, but it sure does sound like faking ... at least on some level, some of the time. 

True, most of orgasm is in the brain -- I know I will orgasm 100% of the time because, basically, that is my mindset. IF he can't make it happen, I will. So maybe she could pull it off, with the right attitude and approach.

Still, to be that easily responsive no matter where she is stimulated is pretty rare. I would think she either has to spend a great deal of effort to work herself up for the 20-30 minute window of arousal, or she somehow has way more pleasure centres than just about any other woman alive. And if she really is that much of a powder keg, the whole scheduling mostly ND thing just doesn't compute. If I had that many pleasure centres, I'd probably never manage to do anything other than sex ever. :grin2:

Or, given the predictability of her routine and responses, that at least some of it is purely for show for your benefit.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

We have a saying in French, "loin des yeux, loin du coeur", which translate to, "far from the eyes, far from the heart".

I firmly believe distance does not increase passion toward your partner but has the opposite effect. Sexual fasting is likely to increase sexual passion once the partners are together again, but sexual passion is a tiny component of the overall passion.

It is not to say that separation may not be beneficial for some couples. It may be helpful to reset some expectations or refocus. But it is like a car with a sputtering engine. You stop it to fix it, but you are still not moving toward your destination.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Have you read MiC? Full disclosure: I have not.
> 
> But yes, I am skeptical of anything that is said to encourage distance as opposed to connection.


I am in the middle of it now. 

Interestingly enough, I stumbled across it used a few weeks ago. After Mem and Marduk swore by it, I figured I should give it a read.

And here you go again with insisting emotional and physical distance is the same thing.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes but it might be just as impossible as them trying to change their partner's mindset :wink2:
> 
> Plus it needs to be done carefully: we don't have enough information to make many of these judgement calls. We have a natural bias to project our situations onto others (I am guilty of that) but it is only logical to suppose that everyone's situation is pretty unique, at the end of the day. I think the professionals take exams/study for years to do this kind of thing to make sure they don't accidentally screw up someone's life for good :|
> 
> Random thought of the day: from what I can tell, the LD/HD dynamic discussions are really quite a grey area; much more difficult to assess and discuss than when you talk about situations with facts (like situations on CWI, divorce questions etc).


Yes, I agree that it is a great challenge to persuade people to look outside of their own viewpoint. And sometimes people only realize later that what people tried to tell them really could have helped. I think we have all been in that situation.

I don't think anyone's life will be "screwed up for good" by hearing a viewpoint that challenges their own. If that were true, these forums would not even be allowed to exist. 

Honestly, hearing different viewpoints is pretty much the purpose of forums.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I am in the middle of it now.
> 
> Interestingly enough, I stumbled across it used a few weeks ago. After Mem and Marduk swore by it, I figured I should give it a read.
> 
> And here you go again with insisting emotional and physical distance is the same thing.


Are you also reading _Hold Me Tight_?

When you distance physically from your wife, say by going to more exercise classes instead of spending time with her, is the purpose *not* emotional distance?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I hate to say it, but it sure does sound like faking ... at least on some level, some of the time.
> 
> True, most of orgasm is in the brain -- I know I will orgasm 100% of the time because, basically, that is my mindset. IF he can't make it happen, I will. So maybe she could pull it off, with the right attitude and approach.
> 
> ...


Powerful post, jade.

Food for thought, alex. If she is indeed faking, why would she feel she needs to do that?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Are you also reading _Hold Me Tight_?
> 
> When you distance physically from your wife, say by going to more exercise classes instead of spending time with her, is the purpose *not* emotional distance?


No and no.

Emotional distance is the unintended consequence, although it is likely much less pronounced than it sounds. Finding an alternate way for me to find happiness (in the face of not being prioritized by my wife) is the primary goal.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Have you read MiC? Full disclosure: I have not.
> 
> But yes, I am skeptical of anything that is said to encourage distance as opposed to connection.


I don't at all agree with the blanket claim that togetherness reduces female passion. Or that somehow injecting distance into a relationship is going to magically restore it.

But I do think there is such a thing as being too attentive, too solicitous, too "together". And honestly, while some women might enjoy that, I simply cannot stand being hovered over or catered to on that level. I absolutely need some amount of "space" to just be, and no, thanks, I don't need anything or anyone right now.

But that "space" needn't be physical, and certainly not emotional. It just needs to be a chance to think my own thoughts, and fetch my own drinks, and attend to my own agenda. Often, for example, my husband and I will spend the day together, but we'll each also be doing our own thing, sometimes with very little conversation or interaction, as we are focused on our own things. There's no physical distance, no emotional distance, but there is "space".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> No and no.
> 
> Emotional distance is the unintended consequence, although it is likely much less pronounced than it sounds. Finding an alternate way for me to find happiness (in the face of not being prioritized by my wife) is the primary goal.


Hard to believe that, far. I think you are resentful and trying to punish your wife. And trying to gain leverage in the relationship.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. Just my genuine feeling.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> We have a saying in French, "loin des yeux, loin du coeur", which translate to, "far from the eyes, far from the heart".
> 
> I firmly believe distance does not increase passion toward your partner but has the opposite effect. Sexual fasting is likely to increase sexual passion once the partners are together again, but sexual passion is a tiny component of the overall passion.
> 
> It is not to say that separation may not be beneficial for some couples. It may be helpful to reset some expectations or refocus. But it is like a car with a sputtering engine. You stop it to fix it, but you are still not moving toward your destination.


Definitely too much distance is a disaster. Think how many relationships collapse or end up in infidelity when they are long distance ... when one person is away for long stretches of time. Or for that matter even when they may live in the same house, but each lives their separate lives.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I don't at all agree with the blanket claim that togetherness reduces female passion. Or that somehow injecting distance into a relationship is going to magically restore it.
> 
> But I do think there is such a thing as being too attentive, too solicitous, too "together". And honestly, while some women might enjoy that, I simply cannot stand being hovered over or catered to on that level. I absolutely need some amount of "space" to just be, and no, thanks, I don't need anything or anyone right now.
> 
> But that "space" needn't be physical, and certainly not emotional. It just needs to be a chance to think my own thoughts, and fetch my own drinks, and attend to my own agenda. Often, for example, my husband and I will spend the day together, but we'll each also be doing our own thing, sometimes with very little conversation or interaction, as we are focused on our own things. There's no physical distance, no emotional distance, but there is "space".


I think some of us have never really had the experience of a "too attentive, too solicitous" man. That may be part of why we run panting after our husbands, seeking their attention.

And there is surely a difference between a man who just genuinely wants to attend to a woman, and one who does so expecting something in return.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> I think some of us have never really had the experience of a "too attentive, too solicitous" man. That may be part of why we run panting after our husbands, seeking their attention.
> 
> And there is surely a difference between a man who just genuinely wants to attend to a woman, and one who does so expecting something in return.


I think women too can be guilty of being too attentive and too solicitous. With mostly the same sorts of results.

People who are catered to often start expecting it, even demanding it. It feeds selfishness and entitlement.

Or they are like me and it just makes them cross.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

wild jade said:


> I don't at all agree with the blanket claim that togetherness reduces female passion. Or that somehow injecting distance into a relationship is going to magically restore it.
> 
> But I do think there is such a thing as being *too attentive, too solicitous, too "together"*. And honestly, while some women might enjoy that, I simply cannot stand being hovered over or catered to on that level. I absolutely need some amount of "space" to just be, and no, thanks, I don't need anything or anyone right now.
> 
> But that "space" needn't be physical, and certainly not emotional. It just needs to be a chance to think my own thoughts, and fetch my own drinks, and attend to my own agenda. Often, for example, my husband and I will spend the day together, but we'll each also be doing our own thing, sometimes with very little conversation or interaction, as we are focused on our own things. There's no physical distance, no emotional distance, but there is "space".


Does a "too attentive, too solicitous,..." man even exist? 

However, I can believe some may be that way hoping for something in return.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Definitely too much distance is a disaster. Think how many relationships collapse or end up in infidelity when they are long distance ... when one person is away for long stretches of time. Or for that matter even when they may live in the same house, but each lives their separate lives.


Yes, some people cannot handle long distances.

Dug is gone often. But he makes sure to check in emotionally. That is *so* important. 

I am sure he thinks it is dumb how much I like TAM. He does not want to spend time reading here and making posts. 

But it is such a deposit in my emotional bank account when he does! I have much higher needs for interaction and discussion on emotional topics than he does. And when he participates in that, I feel loved and close to him.

Another thing: If Dug were home every day, but not making any effort to connect emotionally with me, he may as well not be home. It is the emotional connection more than anything that makes me feel close to him, and makes me want to be close to him.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Hard to believe that, far. I think you are resentful and trying to punish your wife. And trying to gain leverage in the relationship.
> 
> Sorry if that sounds harsh. Just my genuine feeling.


I understand how you would think such, and I do have resentment over it. 

But I love jujitsu. I see it as more opportunity to pursue something else that I love. 

When I am grappling, I am not thinking of how I am hoping this is hurting my wife. I am focused on how much I enjoy learning the art.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That's because you are only able to look at it from *your* perspective!
> 
> I think we all are to some extent "autistic" when it comes to these things, which is fine in itself but we need to learn to *recognise * it, or at least understand that this is a very distinct possibility. Because it is the *projection of intent *onto our partner that does the real damage. Not the situation itself.


Sit back and think of any activity that you do with your partner that is beneficial to you both and to the relationship. Also consider the opportunity cost. Maybe you and him can't afford to go on a cruise four times a year or don't have two weeks to ride your matching Harley's cross country to Sturgis. But you can do a 20 miles bike ride today, it's nice and 75F and nothing major on the horizon.

Why would you NOT do it. In fact, why would you go out of your way to find reasons not to. "Sorry Luv, it's Sunday, and our designated bike ride day is Friday".

This is not projection. Replace intimacy with another activity and you'll see the absurdity of the situation.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I think women too can be guilty of being too attentive and too solicitous. With mostly the same sorts of results.
> 
> People who are catered to often start expecting it, even demanding it. It feeds selfishness and entitlement.
> 
> Or they are like me and it just makes them cross.


Far told me once that if I would stop chasing Dug, Dug would start chasing me. It is very hard for me to stop doing that, though. I really want that connection with him. I think he is really smart and reassuring.

But one time I got very mad at Dug, really lost trust in him, and the desire to be near him dwindled. And then he did indeed make exceptional efforts to connect with me.

But once we talked about what he had done, and he acknowledged how hurt I felt, I quickly forgave him. And then we fell back to the same pattern.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I understand how you would think such, and I do have resentment over it.
> 
> But I love jujitsu. I see it as more opportunity to pursue something else that I love.
> 
> When I am grappling, I am not thinking of how I am hoping this is hurting my wife. I am focused on how much I enjoy learning the art.


It is a beautiful thing to pursue something you love, far. Just always be honest with yourself as to your motives. That is true in everything.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes, some people cannot handle long distances.
> 
> Dug is gone often. But he makes sure to check in emotionally. That is *so* important.
> 
> ...


So, may I ask, what sorts of things count as making an effort to connect emotionally vs failing to do so?

Is it possible you feel so strongly about this topic because in your relationship emotional connection is a struggle? 

If my husband were away a lot, I'd probably drift away into my own life, and not have much connection to him at all. So it would be a real issue as to when and where we build that connection ....

But right now, we spend oodles of time together and the emotional connection requires no effort.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> They have been offered to you. You are always defensive.


Perhaps the alternative explanations are not based in reality.... Let's see one that is and we talk.

It's easy to theorize about something six standard deviations off normal when your reality is straight out of a normal behavior. Its likely non applicable either. The old Native American proverb about walking for a mile in some one's shoes comes to mind. 

In alternative terms, my friend, let's see you or your partner pull the same 1x a week ONLY on Friday 10:00-10:30 pm and see what happens (assuming no away time).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> John, I have never heard you say, "I think it really hurt my partner when I _____. " It is always blaming her and presenting yourself as a victim. How is that going to help you?


It's called REALITY. But let's play along.

I think it really hurts my partner when I don't talk to her and play angry birds all evening.

I think it really hurts my partner when I focus only on my daughters.

I think I can think of a few more ways I hurt her. Most she doesn't notice because she has no idea what a marriage of 35 years looks like.

------------------

I know my partner is too self centered to even consider the results of her actions towards others.

I know my partner meters out affection not only to me but to her children, and now she's upset they are ignoring her.

See, jld, two people can play this game. In six weeks we have the playoffs.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> So, may I ask, what sorts of things count as making an effort to connect emotionally vs failing to do so?
> 
> Is it possible you feel so strongly about this topic because in your relationship emotional connection is a struggle?
> 
> ...


Showing interest in my interests. Following threads here on TAM and discussing the points that clearly animate me. 

Seeking to understand my feelings, explaining what he sees when I cannot see it myself. He is so good at that. I often feel like Dug knows me better than I know myself. 

And that is so frustrating because it is like he has so much knowledge, not just in this but in many areas. But he takes it all for granted and does not think to share it. He often does not say anything unless I ask. It is like hoarding gold all for himself, but not realizing that gold has any special value.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I think we need to go beyond validating feelings (not that there is not a place for that) and challenge people to look at how changing their mindset could help their marriages. I think that is ultimately what could really help them.


Alex could have the best marriage ever. He probably does. But it's her mindset about metering intimacy that needs to change.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> It's called REALITY. But let's play along.
> 
> I think it really hurts my partner when I don't talk to her and play angry birds all evening.
> 
> ...


Doesn't it hurt *you*, john, to hurt her? Doesn't it hurt your heart to treat your mate this way, regardless of how she treats you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Alex could have the best marriage ever. He probably does. But it's her mindset about metering intimacy that needs to change.


She is not here, john. And it is not often that a non-present spouse is told what "the peanut gallery," as you often call us, thinks he or she "should" do, and then hops right on doing that.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> We have a saying in French, "loin des yeux, loin du coeur", which translate to, "far from the eyes, far from the heart".
> 
> I firmly believe distance does not increase passion toward your partner but has the opposite effect. Sexual fasting is likely to increase sexual passion once the partners are together again, but sexual passion is a tiny component of the overall passion.
> 
> It is not to say that separation may not be beneficial for some couples. It may be helpful to reset some expectations or refocus. But it is like a car with a sputtering engine. You stop it to fix it, but you are still not moving toward your destination.


Out of sight.Out of mind.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> It's called REALITY. But let's play along.
> 
> I think it really hurts my partner when I don't talk to her and play angry birds all evening.
> 
> ...


Why don't you stop playing angry bird and sit by her? I am sure she would appreciate.

Why won't you stop posting on TAM right now and go give her a hug and tell her "I am sorry to mistreat you"?

Trying to help you John :smile2:.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Doesn't it hurt *you*, john, to hurt her? Doesn't it hurt your heart to treat your mate this way, regardless of how she treats you?


I think I recall a quote in Religion 101 that went:

"And after thee haveth been poketh in thine eye many times by thine partner, you haveth a free-for-all and thee are granted permission to use plan B, an eye for an eye".


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That difference can be very difficult to distinguish. Sometimes its also not well defined: someone may be very attentive to their partner in the hopes of a similar response in return. Is that bad "bargaining", or just wanting a mutual loving relationship?




jld said:


> snip
> 
> And there is surely a difference between a man who just genuinely wants to attend to a woman, and one who does so expecting something in return.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I think I recall a quote in Religion 101 that went:
> 
> "And after thee haveth been poketh in thine eye many times by thine partner, you haveth a free-for-all and thee are granted permission to use plan B, an eye for an eye".


An eye for an eye makes the whole word blind, john.

Dug would never treat me the way you have treated your wife. Even he, as completely engineerish as he is, would never be so insensitive. He would never abandon me.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> Why don't you stop playing angry bird and sit by her? I am sure she would appreciate.
> 
> Why won't you stop posting on TAM right now and go give her a hug and tell her "I am sorry to mistreat you"?
> 
> Trying to help you John :smile2:.


Let's see your reaction if jld decrees vanilla intimacy once a week on a schedule, Alex style...

I'm sure Alex could Velcro himself next to her and the outcome would be the same....


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Far told me once that if I would stop chasing Dug, Dug would start chasing me. It is very hard for me to stop doing that, though. I really want that connection with him. I think he is really smart and reassuring.
> 
> But one time I got very mad at Dug, really lost trust in him, and the desire to be near him dwindled. And then he did indeed make exceptional efforts to connect with me.
> 
> But once we talked about what he had done, and he acknowledged how hurt I felt, I quickly forgave him. And then we fell back to the same pattern.


This is probably true. Push -- pull. One spouse withdraws and the other seeks to restore a connection. 

If you are too available, why would he bother to chase you? But at the same time, do you need him to be chasing you, or do you like the pattern just the way it is?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> Why don't you stop playing angry bird and sit by her? I am sure she would appreciate.
> 
> Why won't you stop posting on TAM right now and go give her a hug and tell her "I am sorry to mistreat you"?
> 
> Trying to help you John :smile2:.


This is so beautiful, Dug. So kind and loving.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

john117 said:


> it isn't intentional. Yet. But rational thinking would indicate that something that is pleasurable and desirable and has no costs per se and is highly beneficial to the relationship should not be delegated such a role.
> 
> Alternative explanations are welcome.


this

this this this this this!


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> Does a "too attentive, too solicitous,..." man even exist?
> 
> However, I can believe some may be that way hoping for something in return.


LOL. Of course he does!

And what difference does it make if he is or is not hoping for something in return? A too attentive, too solicitous woman is also hoping for something in return.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> This is probably true. Push -- pull. One spouse withdraws and the other seeks to restore a connection.
> 
> If you are too available, why would he bother to chase you? But at the same time, do you need him to be chasing you, or do you like the pattern just the way it is?


I would like more attention from him, without having to ask for it.

For example, a little bit ago he was reading TAM, all on his own initiative. 

Jade, that makes me feel so loved, when he shows interest in my interests! It always feels kind of humiliating when I have to _ask_, yet again. 

I think Dug is so smart, and could do so much good here. He is such a kind, loving man, who truly values women and children. 

But his priorities outside of work are cycling and German and the news. Time for the kids and me has to fit around that, it seems. 

But if he wants sex, I am _right there_ for _him._ I want to be close to him.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> It isn't intentional. Yet. But rational thinking would indicate that something that is pleasurable and desirable and has no costs per se and is highly beneficial to the relationship should not be delegated such a role.
> 
> Alternative explanations are welcome.





alexm said:


> this
> 
> this this this this this!


You expect love relationships to be rational? Well, that's your first mistake right there ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> You expect love relationships to be rational? Well, that's your first mistake right there ...


And rational according to their definition of rational.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Not following you.
> 
> I like Esther Perel, too. Her TED talk on infidelity should be a wake up call for exclusive spouses.
> 
> ...


I meant that neither one finding or the other can prove to be definitive on this particular subject about distance/partner's passion because it will be different for each individual couple. Sorry if I wasn't clear on it. Both you and MEM (or whoever it was you had the disagreement with) must therefore be right. I just didn't know it can be used as a successful/main stream tactic (to deliberately distance yourself physically).


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> Let's see your reaction if *jld decrees vanilla intimacy once a week* on a schedule, Alex style...
> 
> I'm sure Alex could Velcro himself next to her and the outcome would be the same....


But she has not done this, John. I wonder why?


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> I would like more attention from him, without having to ask for it.
> 
> For example, a little bit ago he was reading TAM, all on his own initiative.
> 
> ...


Why is him reading TAM attention to you? Isn't it just again him finding other people to give attention to? 

And why are you and your kids so far down on his list of priorities? No wonder you are scrambling to chase after him ...he really makes you work for it.

What you are saying here is actually supporting the point that distance creates passion. He holds himself aloof while you fall all over yourself to get his attention. Personally I would tire of that real quick.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I meant that neither one finding or the other can prove to be definitive on this particular subject about distance/partner's passion because it will be different for each individual couple. Sorry if I wasn't clear on it. Both you and MEM (or whoever it was you had the disagreement with) must therefore be right. I just didn't know it can be used as a successful/main stream tactic (to deliberately distance yourself physically).


I don't think every idea out there is equally valid. I would be concerned to have someone read about a high risk idea here on TAM and decide to go try it out. It could make things worse, and unnecessarily so.

Not that everyone does not have the right to do whatever they think. But there is great value to challenging ideas presented here and expressing potential hazards of them.

After all, _"First, do no harm."_


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Why is him reading TAM attention to you? Isn't it just again him finding other people to give attention to?
> 
> And why are you and your kids so far down on his list of priorities? No wonder you are scrambling to chase after him ...he really makes you work for it.
> 
> What you are saying here is actually supporting the point that distance creates passion. He holds himself aloof while you fall all over yourself to get his attention. Personally I would tire of that real quick.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes, I agree that it is a great challenge to persuade people to look outside of their own viewpoint. And sometimes people only realize later that what people tried to tell them really could have helped. I think we have all been in that situation.
> 
> I don't think anyone's life will be "screwed up for good" by hearing a viewpoint that challenges their own. If that were true, these forums would not even be allowed to exist.
> 
> Honestly, hearing different viewpoints is pretty much the purpose of forums.


Ha, you can hardly prove that an advice can screw up your life just like it would be almost impossible to prove that the flap of a butterfly could be responsible for a hurricane to arise. 

But it's enough to plant a seed of doubt where no doubts need to exist to set the whole thing in motion. 

Just an example: someone is suggesting that Alex's wife may be faking it with (IMO) pretty limited information to justify this assertion. Alex's concern was not even whether she was faking it or not, but about the 'regularity' aspect of it. Now he might begin doubting pushing and testing this hypothesis (probably not him, but somebody in his situation might) and end up breaking the whole thing.

That's your butterfly right there.

I guess no risk warning is necessary since everyone coming to the forums will be aware of this risk. It's just important to acknowledge that we are working with *very* little facts and *very* complex issues...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Why is him reading TAM attention to you? Isn't it just again him finding other people to give attention to?
> 
> And why are you and your kids so far down on his list of priorities? No wonder you are scrambling to chase after him ...he really makes you work for it.
> 
> What you are saying here is actually supporting the point that distance creates passion. He holds himself aloof while you fall all over yourself to get his attention. Personally I would tire of that real quick.


He does not do it on purpose. We just have very different personalities, and very different interests. 

And physical distance has nothing to do with it. That is why I completely disagree it is necessary to create it. 

The closer I feel emotionally to Dug, the closer I want to be physically. It is all about closeness to me.

All that emphasis on manipulating logistics just seems silly to me. Connect with her emotionally, and you will not have to play any silly games.

When we read here on TAM, we discuss it together. Reading here brings up issues we would not have thought of on our own, but are interesting (at least to me). 

When we have interesting, heartfelt discussions, it makes me feel close to him. I always feel we learn and grow from those discussions.


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> _On 9-24-10 at the annual conference of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, plenary speaker John Gottman, mentioning Esther Perel by name, said that her idea that emotional distance makes for better marital sex is contradictory to his findings. Now at the University of Washington, he has been doing research with married couples since 1980.
> 
> On 5-20-11 at the annual conference of the Massachusetts Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, I asked Terry Real whether too much intimacy could be boring, whether it was important to keep mystery in a marriage. He recognized that as Perel's idea and said that while he likes her as a person, he totally disagrees with that idea. He says intimacy is the great turn on, the pearl of great price._
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review..._2?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=2


It's also contradictory to Dr. Harley's findings that he talks about in His Needs, Her Needs. He found in his clinical practice that couples who are separated for work have more stress in the marriage and are at greater risk for affairs. He has stated on his radio show that he jump-started his practice with couples where one was a pilot because that career is hard on marriages. This led him to the conclusion that couples should avoid spending nights apart in order to have a greater chance at a successful marriage.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> Does a "too attentive, too solicitous,..." man even exist?


I am sure he does. But he is probably single :laugh:


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ha, you can hardly prove that an advice can screw up your life just like it would be almost impossible to prove that the flap of a butterfly could be responsible for a hurricane to arise.
> 
> But it's enough to plant a seed of doubt where no doubts need to exist to set the whole thing in motion.
> 
> ...


I don't think jade was trying to hurt Alex's relationship in any way. It's not like she was trying to blame his wife in any way for possibly faking. 

I think she was just trying to enlighten him, and get him to ask himself why his wife might feel the need to do that.  That could get Alex examining his own conscience.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I understand how you would think such, and I do have resentment over it.
> 
> But I love jujitsu. I see it as more opportunity to pursue something else that I love.
> 
> When I am grappling, I am not thinking of how I am hoping this is hurting my wife. I am focused on how much I enjoy learning the art.


Distraction. Focusing on an activity to divert one's attention from an aspect in the relationship that can't be fixed (but is not major enough to break the whole thing off) may not be a bad option for Alexm.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> It's also contradictory to Dr. Harley's findings that he talks about in His Needs, Her Needs. He found in his clinical practice that couples who are separated for work have more stress in the marriage and are at greater risk for affairs. He has stated on his radio show that he jump-started his practice with couples where one was a pilot because that career is hard on marriages. This led him to the conclusion that couples should avoid spending nights apart in order to have a greater chance at a successful marriage.


I disagree with Harley on this. Dug and I have lived apart most of the last ten years. Yet we are really close. Why is that?

Because Dug makes efforts to connect *emotionally* with me. That is really the basis of our relationship. The more he does it, the closer I feel to him. The closer I want to be to him.

If he were home all the time, but not connecting emotionally, who would care if he were here? Yes, he would be a handyman, but there would not be the emotional connection, the essence of modern marriage.

I love my husband very much. But he is the one who creates that love, by the connection he creates with me. (That is very consistent with Gottman's writings, btw.)


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> It's never too late? (to deal/face the issue). It's one of the worst things that can happen to a child.


Yes, it destroys your innocence for sure. As far as abuse goes, mine was fairly minor. No permanent physical issues, thankfully. 

I accepted much later in life than I should have that it had happened. I told the little girl I once was that she was safe now and had nothing to fear and there was no reason to continue to blame herself. That helped.


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Distraction. Focusing on an activity to divert one's attention from an aspect in the relationship that can't be fixed (but is not major enough to break the whole thing off) may not be a bad option for Alexm.


How is that going to help him reach his goals of more sexual connection with his wife outside of the short weekly window? How is more distance going to solve the issue of not enough intimacy? I see that as a slide right into a "roommate" situation.

I get self-preservation....but they have a lot of good in the marriage. Alex has something to work with. 

I think the OP should bring up the issue every chance he gets. Make it her issue too. Brainstorm ideas...sex therapy, for one.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> He does not do it on purpose. We just have very different personalities, and very different interests.
> 
> And physical distance has nothing to do with it. That is why I completely disagree it is necessary to create it.
> 
> ...


Lovely! Yes, heartfelt discussions are a nice way to bond and grow intimacy. And, like I said earlier, I agree that closeness is important ... and that distance can be a real disaster, relationship killer.

But at the same time, you have absolutely witnessed the push-pull in your relationship, and your dynamic as you describe it is very much about him being aloof and you chasing him. There is no need for distance in your dynamic because you already have too much. (Not saying that he does this on purpose, or that it isn't just how your personalities mesh. Just that it is.)

All I'm suggesting is that your emphasis on connection to the exclusion of other things may be largely because that is absolutely what is needed in your relationship. It could be the opposite with a different dynamic.

If all of a sudden your husband was all about you, closeness with you, chasing you around, you might, for example, find yourself pulling back from him.


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> I disagree with Harley on this. Dug and I have lived apart most of the last ten years. Yet we are really close. Why is that?
> 
> Because Dug makes efforts to connect *emotionally* with me. That is really the basis of our relationship. The more he does it, the closer I feel to him. The closer I want to be to him.
> 
> ...


Do you disagree with him altogether, or do you think you and Dug might be the exception, not the rule? 

I feel the same way about connecting emotionally- if we're in the same room but doing separate things and not engaging, it doesn't do much for me. But while my husband sends me texts to check in, they don't do the same for me as his engaged physical presence.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would like to say, too, that for the first 14 years we were together, Dug and I lived together. Other than when he was travelling, we were nearly always together, and with our children (no babysitters). And we have always been close, and had an active sex life. 

I just strongly disagree that it is necessary to create physical distance to create sexual interest and physical intimacy. It is necessary to create emotional closeness to create sexual interest and physical intimacy, in our experience.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I understand how you would think such, and I do have resentment over it.
> 
> But I love jujitsu. I see it as more opportunity to pursue something else that I love.
> 
> When I am grappling, I am not thinking of how I am hoping this is hurting my wife. I am focused on how much I enjoy learning the art.


Why Jiu jitsu.It's one of the down and dirty martial arts.I'm surprised that if you wanted to learn to fight you would select this art.Too much grappling on the floor for me.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Lovely! Yes, heartfelt discussions are a nice way to bond and grow intimacy. And, like I said earlier, I agree that closeness is important ... and that distance can be a real disaster, relationship killer.
> 
> But at the same time, you have absolutely witnessed the push-pull in your relationship, and your dynamic as you describe it is very much about him being aloof and you chasing him. There is no need for distance in your dynamic because you already have too much. (Not saying that he does this on purpose, or that it isn't just how your personalities mesh. Just that it is.)
> 
> ...


Oh, jade, that just sounds heavenly! Like bathing in love!

I'd just like to have the chance to try it.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Just an example: someone is suggesting that Alex's wife may be faking it with (IMO) pretty limited information to justify this assertion. Alex's concern was not even whether she was faking it or not, but about the 'regularity' aspect of it. Now he might begin doubting pushing and testing this hypothesis (probably not him, but somebody in his situation might) and end up breaking the whole thing.
> 
> That's your butterfly right there.
> 
> I guess no risk warning is necessary since everyone coming to the forums will be aware of this risk. It's just important to acknowledge that we are working with *very* little facts and *very* complex issues...


You are right that I said this with very limited information, and it is true that I could be way off base. Really, it was an observation that as described, alexm's wife's responses were just a little too perfectly pat to be real. Especially given her rigidity about scheduling and complete disinterest at other times.

This doesn't mean she is all "fake" -- or even mostly so. Just that she may be putting on a bit of a show to enhance his enjoyment and keep him happy. And that therefore his perception of her total multi-orgasmic passion and thrill may not be the whole reality from her perspective. 

It's not like spouses are perfectly honest with each other about what they think and feel ....


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Oh, jade, that just sounds heavenly! Like bathing in love!
> 
> I'd just like to have the chance to try it.


Unfortunately, I think you might have to play some games to get yourself there. And so, you might not feel too good about yourself making it happen.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Do you disagree with him altogether, or do you think you and Dug might be the exception, not the rule?
> 
> I feel the same way about connecting emotionally- if we're in the same room but doing separate things and not engaging, it doesn't do much for me. But while my husband sends me texts to check in, they don't do the same for me as his engaged physical presence.


Well, we Facetime every night. If that is not possible, we talk on the phone. I don't think texting is enough, either, although it is appreciated in a pinch. His voice is very calming and reassuring to me.

I am not sure about whether or not we are the exception. But I hate to see people chase the wrong thing, you know? So I read these posts and really check my gut as well as my brain against them. I want people to see the shortcuts to a good relationship, and focus on those.

To me, emotional connection is crucial in modern marriage. Yes, physical time together is wonderful. But emotional connection is essential, and truly the key, to a satisfying, long lasting relationship.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Unfortunately, I think you might have to play some games to get yourself there. And so, you might not feel too good about yourself making it happen.


I am way too honest to play games, jade. It would not work. And I would feel stupid even trying.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I hate to say it, but it sure does sound like faking ... at least on some level, some of the time.
> 
> True, most of orgasm is in the brain -- I know I will orgasm 100% of the time because, basically, that is my mindset. IF he can't make it happen, I will. So maybe she could pull it off, with the right attitude and approach.
> 
> ...


My wife is exactly the same in that respect: when it's "sex time", she is totally into it and enjoys things even I find surprising (I say "even" because pornhub has clearly left an impression on me from my youth as I vaguely recognize some of the "techniques"). I'm 100% certain she is not faking her enjoyment nor her ability to come when it "comes" to it


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> You are right that I said this with very limited information, and it is true that I could be way off base. Really, it was an observation that as described, alexm's wife's responses were just a little too perfectly pat to be real. Especially given her rigidity about scheduling and complete disinterest at other times.
> 
> This doesn't mean she is all "fake" -- or even mostly so. Just that she may be putting on a bit of a show to enhance his enjoyment and *keep him happy.* And that therefore his perception of her total multi-orgasmic passion and thrill may not be the whole reality from her perspective.
> 
> It's not like spouses are perfectly honest with each other about what they think and feel ....


That just seems so sad to me, that any woman would feel that way. Like she is trying to pacify a child.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Sit back and think of any activity that you do with your partner that is beneficial to you both and to the relationship. Also consider the opportunity cost. Maybe you and him can't afford to go on a cruise four times a year or don't have two weeks to ride your matching Harley's cross country to Sturgis. But you can do a 20 miles bike ride today, it's nice and 75F and nothing major on the horizon.
> 
> Why would you NOT do it. In fact, why would you go out of your way to find reasons not to. *"Sorry Luv, it's Sunday, and our designated bike ride day is Friday".*
> 
> This is not projection. Replace intimacy with another activity and you'll see the absurdity of the situation.


I don't think that's what it would be like in Alex's case in case he approached her? His problem was not about rejection.

I can very well believe that in your case, it might be different!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes, some people cannot handle long distances.
> 
> Dug is gone often. But he makes sure to check in emotionally. That is *so* important.
> 
> ...


Ah! A first case of a HEN vs LEN situation perhaps? (high emotional needs vs low emotional needs). Is TAM emotional porn?? :surprise: Not sure my wife will approve of it...0


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Why Jiu jitsu.It's one of the down and dirty martial arts.I'm surprised that if you wanted to learn to fight you would select this art.Too much grappling on the floor for me.


It is technically fascinating.

It is the thinking man's martial art.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> That just seems so sad to me, that any woman would feel that way. Like she is trying to pacify a child.


Why is it like trying to pacify a child? She knows he wants good sex, and she provides it for him. 

How is that different from any other spouse providing for any other desire their partner might have?

According to you, your husband thinks hanging out on TAM is dumb, but he does it to make you happy. Same diff, no?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I think some of us have never really had the experience of a "too attentive, too solicitous" man.  That may be part of why we run panting after our husbands, seeking their attention.
> 
> And there is surely a difference between a man who just genuinely wants to attend to a woman, and one who does so expecting something in return.


Oh I am not sure you want to explore *that* rabbit hole...I could show you that almost anything we do in life is on some level for selfish reasons, including loving our spouses or even....(dear lord, don't let me bring *you* into this again....I won't...Thank you 

The problem is not with selfishness per se: it is absolutely fine to be selfish to a certain degree that does *not* harm others. IMO.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> It is technically fascinating.
> 
> It is the thinking man's martial art.


Have you ever considered aikido.That is a martial art you have to think about. I've been practicing martial arts since I was a kid.Twenty four years a karate student but I have branched out over the years to kickboxing and weapons.I find aikido fascinating though.My best friend is one of the highest ranking woman practitioners in the US.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ah! A first case of a HEN vs LEN situation perhaps? (high emotional needs vs low emotional needs). Is TAM emotional porn?? :surprise: Not sure my wife will approve of it...0


It certainly can be a soap opera around here. I suppose some people read just for the shock value.

But for people with more altruistic motives, there is so much opportunity to help people make their marriages healthier, and to understand our own better, too.

Always good to invite spouses here, btw. Highly recommend it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Why is it like trying to pacify a child? She knows he wants good sex, and she provides it for him.
> 
> How is that different from any other spouse providing for any other desire their partner might have?
> 
> According to you, your husband thinks hanging out on TAM is dumb, but he does it to make you happy. Same diff, no?


Keeping him happy? How would you feel about a man you had to "keep happy"? Does it not sound like a chore you have to get done? 

I don't think that is what Alex wants, anyway.

Dug, do you participate here to "keep me happy"?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Oh I am not sure you want to explore *that* rabbit hole...I could show you that almost anything we do in life is on some level for selfish reasons, including loving our spouses or even....(dear lord, don't let me bring *you* into this again....I won't...Thank you
> 
> The problem is not with selfishness per se: it is absolutely fine to be selfish to a certain degree that does *not* harm others. IMO.


I certainly agree that we are all selfish. I like to be with Dug because I like how I feel with him. Same for him, I am sure. If every time I were with him I felt bad, the marriage would be over in short order.

Alex is not here because he thinks his *wife* is unhappy. He wants something for himself out of this.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I don't at all agree with the blanket claim that togetherness reduces female passion. Or that somehow injecting distance into a relationship is going to magically restore it.
> 
> But I do think there is such a thing as being too attentive, too solicitous, too "together". And honestly, while some women might enjoy that, I simply cannot stand being hovered over or catered to on that level. I absolutely need some amount of "space" to just be, and no, thanks, I don't need anything or anyone right now.
> 
> But that "space" needn't be physical, and certainly not emotional. It just needs to be a chance to think my own thoughts, and fetch my own drinks, and attend to my own agenda. Often, for example, my husband and I will spend the day together, but we'll each also be doing our own thing, sometimes with very little conversation or interaction, as we are focused on our own things. There's no physical distance, no emotional distance, but there is "space".


I think this clarification of "distance" and "space" is a good one, and important to the discussion. There are good ways and bad ways of experiencing "apart-ness" in a relationship. Also, individual needs vary in this area. 

My husband and I know one another very well, and we also spend a lot of time together physically (we both work at home). We talk about our needs in this area a lot so that we can be sensitive to one another's needs. We understand IN GENERAL one another's preference for space, but we also have no problems asking for something different if what the other person is providing (or not providing) isn't working for us. 

My GENERAL preference is for my husband to do his thing, and if I want/need more attention, I will ask for it. He is pretty good at intimacy and giving me plenty of affection, so that might be why I'm comfortable with him just doing his thing: I can rely on him to always give me some attention every day. And when he does not, I don't feel angry because I trust it's because he was just too busy. All I have to do is ask, and he will bump me up on his priority list. 

But it works both ways: if he wants more from he, he will ask. I used to get defensive about it, but I really worked on it, and have come to realize that if HE is noticing that our intimacy has slipped, then it's time to pay attention to it, lol. 

It's nice when the husband is careful not to let intimacy slip too far. I think there are men here who keep their finger on that pulse--like Alex--and who rightly should be honest with their wives when they are starting to feel warning signs of a disconnect.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I would like more attention from him, without having to ask for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




See, if my wife wrote it, my mind would be racing thinking why on Earth is she just sitting there waiting for it? (Sex) Does she not want it from me herself, out of her own will? Why doesn't she come and take it occasionally? Why does it need to be me to be the needy one? Is she trying to manipulate me? Is it duty sex? Is she enjoying it? Why is the meaning of life hard to find when you have a dictionary? Would a fly without wings be called a 'walk'?

So yeah...I sometimes wonder if I have overthank a few things over the course of my life.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I would like more attention from him, without having to ask for it.
> 
> For example, a little bit ago he was reading TAM, all on his own initiative.
> 
> ...


So....<extrapolation running mad> if he refused to read TAM, would he still be allowed to have sex? >

Note to Dug: more sex wanted? It is clear what to do. Get those reading glasses out


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> So....<extrapolation running mad> if he refused to read TAM, would he still be allowed to have sex? >


We were having sex way before TAM was ever present in our life. I do not know why that would change.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> See, if my wife wrote it, my mind would be racing thinking why on Earth is she just sitting there waiting for it? (Sex) Does she not want it from me herself, out of her own will? Why doesn't she come and take it occasionally? Why does it need to be me to be the needy one? Is she trying to manipulate me? Is it duty sex? Is she enjoying it? Why is the meaning of life hard to find when you have a dictionary? *Would a fly without wings be called a 'walk'*?
> 
> So yeah...I sometimes wonder if I have overthank a few things over the course of my life.


You're funny.  And yes, you probably do overthink things. Shoot, who doesn't, when it is important to them?

I bet there are a ton of women out there who would look at my marriage and tell me I have no idea what not getting enough attention means. And I am sure they are right. 

We are all, as you said earlier, looking out for our own interests.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> So....<extrapolation running mad> if he refused to read TAM, would he still be allowed to have sex? >
> 
> Note to Dug: more sex wanted? It is clear what to do. Get those reading glasses out


I am not a refuser. And it is always a sure way of getting his attention!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I don't think jade was trying to hurt Alex's relationship in any way. It's not like she was trying to blame his wife in any way for possibly faking.
> 
> I think she was just trying to enlighten him, and get him to ask himself why his wife might feel the need to do that. That could get Alex examining his own conscience.


I am not saying anyone would set out to do this on purpose....I am saying we have to be sometimes careful with extrapolation from very little information for the reasons I outlined.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I am not saying anyone would set out to do this on purpose....I am saying we have to be sometimes careful with extrapolation from very little information for the reasons I outlined.


For sure, no one really knows why his wife is doing what she does. We are all just kind of throwing thoughts out here, with the hope that something might be helpful. We could all certainly be totally off.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Yes, it destroys your innocence for sure. As far as abuse goes, mine was fairly minor. No permanent physical issues, thankfully.


With respect, and please know that I am saying this out of sincere concern for you: you are not qualified to make the judgement what issues it may have left, even if there were no physical ones.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> How is that going to help him reach his goals of more sexual connection with his wife outside of the short weekly window?
> 
> I think the OP should bring up the issue every chance he gets. Make it her issue too. Brainstorm ideas...sex therapy, for one.


It might help *him* not focus so much on one aspect that may not be worth his time focusing on. I personally feel it is more of a "glass half empty" situation rather than a crisis situation which requires sex therapy...But it's a complete judgement call and only take it FWIW. I know there are a lot of people out there for whom constant sexual rejection is a serious affliction. I was trying to put things into perspective. If this doesn't work, your suggestions of course are always available as the next port of call.


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> It might help *him* not focus so much on one aspect that may not be worth his time focusing on. I personally feel it is more of a "glass half empty" situation rather than a crisis situation which requires sex therapy...But it's a complete judgement call and only take it FWIW. I know there are a lot of people out there for whom constant sexual rejection is a serious affliction. I was trying to put things into perspective. If this doesn't work, your suggestions of course are always available as the next port of call.


Got it, thanks for replying. For the record, sex therapy isn't only an option in crisis. It can help many couples communicate their needs better, and work to find solutions.

"What kinds of problems do sex therapists treat? The top two problems in my practice: *low sexual desire and frequency disagreements between partners*."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/married-and-still-doing-it/201211/should-we-see-sex-therapist


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

The only way I think "bringing it up every chance he gets" might be helpful is if he does so in a playful, teasing way, something that would make her laugh, but think about it at the same time. 

But since he really is bothered by it, it may end up just sounding passive-aggressive.

Alex, have you tried humor at all?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
The fun part of this debate - is the same as any other. WHY? 

You can see WHAT is happening pretty easy. But WHY folks do or don't do. That's interesting. 

It's worth separating the raw physicality and the emotions. 

I can make this easy for you. Traveling or not - M2 and I are in this rhythm. It is incredible. But - I don't really have a physical reaction to just being together. I don't feel desire. That's just truth. Sure we have sex and it's fun. But I don't get turned on UNTIL we are fooling around. 

But if either of us goes away for more than a day - totally different. First night in bed after 2+ days apart and the auto-mating system kicks in with a vengeance. 

Oh yeah - by the way - spatial separation has zero to do with intimacy - so I have no idea why people are equating one with the other. Spatial separation is just that. Nothing more or less. 







jld said:


> _On 9-24-10 at the annual conference of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, plenary speaker John Gottman, mentioning Esther Perel by name, said that her idea that emotional distance makes for better marital sex is contradictory to his findings. Now at the University of Washington, he has been doing research with married couples since 1980.
> 
> On 5-20-11 at the annual conference of the Massachusetts Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, I asked Terry Real whether too much intimacy could be boring, whether it was important to keep mystery in a marriage. He recognized that as Perel's idea and said that while he likes her as a person, he totally disagrees with that idea. He says intimacy is the great turn on, the pearl of great price._
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review..._2?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=2


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> *He does not do it on purpose.* We just have very different personalities, and very different interests.
> 
> And physical distance has nothing to do with it. That is why I completely disagree it is necessary to create it.
> 
> ...


And here is the secret of a happy marriage: projection of positive intentions!
Somebody other than you could see this in a very different light.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> *There is however - only one certain recipe for maintaining passion over time (and it requires all the usual good stuff to be in place) and that recipe requires space. Separation between the partners. *
> 
> It really is that simple. Most people CHOOSE the hyper stability that comes from frequent (daily?) contact, over passion.
> 
> ...





MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> The fun part of this debate - is the same as any other. WHY?
> 
> You can see WHAT is happening pretty easy. But WHY folks do or don't do. That's interesting.
> ...


Not sure I understand this last post. My concern was with the bolded in the first one.

I do understand that physical separation works for you and your wife. I just disagree it is necessary for everyone.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> And here is the secret of a happy marriage: *projection of positive intentions!*
> Somebody other than you could see this in a very different light.


I, too, think this is key. 

Some people are better at assuming the best from their spouses. That's a wonderful gift to give your marriage. I think that it is often born out of having emotional trust in one's spouse, but it can also be a learned behavior for people who tend to be more critical and/or defensive in nature.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> And here is the secret of a happy marriage: projection of positive intentions!
> Somebody other than you could see this in a very different light.


They could, but they do not know him. I do.

I do agree that it is a very good idea to assume the best of your partner, though. Especially when that is their track record.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I would like more attention from him, without having to ask for it.
> 
> For example, a little bit ago he was reading TAM, all on his own initiative.
> 
> ...


Having swallowed a bit of sick after reading this wink2, I have to say I am jealous. I wish my wife could sometimes see me in this light. She will never show me this side, in this manner anyway. She worries my head will grow big (she already thinks my head is way too big from success in career). On the other hand, it makes me want to fight and work hard to impress her.

Different relationships. Different dynamics.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> This is so beautiful, Dug. So kind and loving.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> this
> 
> this this this this this!


A rare occasion where I can actually use what I learned in college 🎼


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> You expect love relationships to be rational? Well, that's your first mistake right there ...


(note: my dissertation research had a lot to do with rational and irrational decision making)

During the initial phases, yes. We do make silly decisions based on "love".

Alas, we aren't talking about that. Nobody is madly in the fog of love 25 years into an LTR. If they are, my hat's off to them. My model of an LTR is a lot more transactional than emotional.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> But she has not done this, John. I wonder why?


That's not what the question was.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Having swallowed a bit of sick after reading this wink2, I have to say I am jealous. I wish my wife could sometimes see me in this light. She will never show me this side, in this manner anyway. She worries my head will grow big (she already thinks my head is way too big from success in career). On the other hand, it makes me want to fight and work hard to impress her.
> 
> Different relationships. Different dynamics.


Why does it make you sick? 

I think it is heartwarming when people say loving things about their spouses, as long as they are true. I love to see men praise their wives, and defend them against the horrible things some people here say about them. It makes me trust them.

Congrats on your career success, btw. You certainly live in a different socio-economic orbit than most of us do.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I don't think that's what it would be like in Alex's case in case he approached her? His problem was not about rejection.
> 
> I can very well believe that in your case, it might be different!


He won't approach her because P(rejection) = 1.0 or just about...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I, too, think this is key.
> 
> Some people are better at assuming the best from their spouses. That's a wonderful gift to give your marriage. I think that it is often born out of having emotional trust in one's spouse, but *it can also be a learned behavior for people who tend to be more critical and/or defensive in nature*.


The other partner will probably have to work pretty hard at earning their trust, though. But when a partner shows, time after time, that they are trustworthy, trust is bound to grow, even in the most critical/defensive heart.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I am not a refuser. And it is always a sure way of getting his attention!


Then you have absolutely no idea how a refuser's mind work. Q.E.D.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Then you have absolutely no idea how a refuser's mind work. Q.E.D.


I am not one, but I can understand how a woman could come to be: His neglect, his disrespect, his deprioritizing of her . . . or even worse, his mockery/manipulation of her . . . all of these are withdrawals from her emotional bank account. 

Even just one, if it is big enough, could drain the whole account.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I am not one, but I can understand how a woman could come to be: His neglect, his disrespect, his deprioritizing of her . . . or even worse, his mockery/manipulation of her . . . all of these are withdrawals from her emotional bank account.
> 
> Even just one, if it is big enough, could drain the whole account.


Your timeline seems to be missing a few events specific to her behaviors prior to T(0).


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Your timeline seems to be missing a few events specific to her behaviors prior to T(0).


I am not saying anything she did was right, john. And she will pay the price for how she has treated her children. Every parent does.

But she is not here. You are the only one we can talk to about how to make the marriage better.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I certainly agree that we are all selfish. I like to be with Dug because I like how I feel with him. Same for him, I am sure. If every time I were with him I felt bad, the marriage would be over in short order.
> 
> Alex is not here because he thinks his *wife* is unhappy. He wants something for himself out of this.


Why is this wrong?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Why is this wrong?


Did someone say it was?

Right or wrong, it is reality.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

jld said:


> The other partner will probably have to work pretty hard at earning their trust, though. But when a partner shows, time after time, that they are trustworthy, trust is bound to grow, even in the most critical/defensive heart.


Yes, it can take patience and persistence to not give up on trying to win over a person like that. That's what impresses me about several of the men here on TAM--they are honestly committed to loving women who are, either by nature or circumstance, harder to draw out. 

Men (or women) who commit to partners who have lower intimacy needs or who tend towards defensiveness and/or criticism are often struggling not to neglect their own needs to a degree that they begin to build resentment, while trying to make sure their partner has the "relationship atmosphere" he or she needs in order to feel safe enough to be open and vulnerable (emotional intimacy.)

Really not an easy balance to strike, I'm betting.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> The fun part of this debate - is the same as any other. WHY?
> 
> You can see WHAT is happening pretty easy. But WHY folks do or don't do. That's interesting.
> ...


Strange, I do. Seeing my wife walk around the house, in her tight leggings and her perfect legs drives me nuts. When I travel and she is not around, I can go for days not thinking about sex.

I guess everyone is different and for her, maybe spatial separation might be beneficial because I feel she is more "animalistic" whenever I come back from a trip. For me, it's the other way around.

On another note: I think the reason why some people find it hard to separate emotional closeness and spatial separation is because they...don't separate the two. They can't have one without the other.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> They could, but they do not know him. I do.


You mean they do not know him *the way you do*. Very different :wink2:

Isn't there a saying....behind every great man there is a great woman with a strap on...I might be misremembering.


----------



## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> So that's the mystery to me and I guess the female body works totally differetn in that regard: how do you know that you are or not going to orgasm *beforehand*?




That's my question too. For me it would be mental resentment or decision, has never happened to me. In fact I might even have been angry at myself for enjoying it when I didn't want to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> You mean they do not know him *the way you do*. Very different :wink2:
> 
> Isn't there a saying....behind every great man there is a woman with a strap on...I might be misremembering.



Well, if I am wearing that, I clearly do not know how to use it! 

Here's one I have heard, and agree with: Behind every great man is a woman who could not live on his former income! 

Failed at that one, too, darn it!


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Have you ever considered aikido.That is a martial art you have to think about. I've been practicing martial arts since I was a kid.Twenty four years a karate student but I have branched out over the years to kickboxing and weapons.I find aikido fascinating though.My best friend is one of the highest ranking woman practitioners in the US.


I teach kickboxing bags classes once or twice a week. I enjoy kickboxing, but not anywhere near BJJ.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Returning back to @alexm 's issue, after you spoke with her about it, has anything changed? What was her response?

"Yes, I've talked to her about this. She knows I don't like this scheduled/expected sex life. It removes any sort of anticipation or excitement from it."

Do you mean it removes anticipation out of it talking about it or having it scheduled?

I just want to make sure there is no 'requirement for telepathy' there (as in, that you are frustrated that she can't read your mind) and that you have tried the communication route first. It seems it wouldn't be the hardest thing for her to just "mix it up" and change the days around so that it seems more random to you, from your perspective. Or would this also not be acceptable?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yes, it can take patience and persistence to not give up on trying to win over a person like that. That's what impresses me about several of the men here on TAM--they are honestly committed to loving women who are, either by nature, harder to draw out.
> 
> Men (or women) who commit to partners who have lower intimacy needs or who tend towards defensiveness and/or criticism are often struggling not to neglect their own needs so far that they begin to build resentment, while trying to make sure their partner has the "relationship atmosphere" he or she needs in order to feel safe enough to be open and vulnerable (emotional intimacy.)
> 
> Really not an easy balance to strike, I'm betting.


No, it isn't easy.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I loved M2 the exact same amount traveling 5 days per week as zero days per week. 

Over a million years as hunter gatherers - 50,000 generations of evolution - powerful stuff. Our ancestors mixed love and travel just like we do. 

And when younger - and flooded with T - I was constantly hot for M2. 

At 54 - not doing strength training anymore - T levels are lower and spatial separation = desire spike. I think that was usually the case for M2 when we were younger. 

---------
I do however want to acknowledge something @jld said earlier. Women are universally turned off by needy partners. 

While it is true that needy is in the eye of the beholder - there are some very common themes in these type situations. 

And it is a rare sexually frustrated HD who is willing to intentionally manage the spatial aspect of their marriage. 

Which ties back to a type of neediness that - like porn - is difficult to characterize and yet oh so easy to recognize. 





inmyprime said:


> Strange, I do. Seeing my wife walk around the house, in her tight leggings and her perfect legs drives me nuts. When I travel and she is not around, I can go for days not thinking about sex.
> 
> I guess everyone is different and for her, maybe special separation might be beneficial because I feel she is more "animalistic" whenever I come back from a trip. To me, it's the other way around.
> 
> On another note: I think some people find it hard to separate emotional closeness and spacial separation is because they...don't separate the two. They can't have one without the other.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yes, it can take patience and persistence to not give up on trying to win over a person like that. That's what impresses me about several of the men here on TAM--they are honestly committed to loving women who are, either by nature, harder to draw out.


I think a lot of guys here are emotionally dependent on their wives. Not that they do not love them, but that emotional dependence can complicate the dynamics. Jmo.



> Men (or women) who commit to partners who have lower intimacy needs or who tend towards defensiveness and/or criticism are often struggling not to neglect their own needs so far that they begin to build resentment, while trying to make sure their partner has the "relationship atmosphere" he or she needs in order to feel safe enough to be open and vulnerable (emotional intimacy.)


Again, I think their own emotional dependence complicates this. 

Honestly, that whole dynamic looks complicated and codependent to me. I don't mind being emotionally dependent on my husband. But I could never be with a man who depended emotionally on me.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Returning back to @alexm 's issue, after you spoke with her about it, has anything changed? What was her response?
> 
> "Yes, I've talked to her about this. She knows I don't like this scheduled/expected sex life. It removes any sort of anticipation or excitement from it."
> 
> ...


I think he wants genuine spontaneity, not just a change up of days.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I think he wants genuine spontaneity, not just a change up of days.


He said somewhere higher up that changing up days would be fine with him! (unless I got it wrong).

At which point does a pattern become random and vice versa?

*It's all to do with the observer*.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> He said somewhere higher up that changing up days would be fine with him! (unless I got it wrong).
> 
> At which point does a pattern become random and vice versa?
> 
> *It's all to do with the observer*.


Okay, maybe I misunderstood, too. I thought he said he wanted genuine spontaneity with her, not a schedule.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

IMP,
The dilemma here is kind of simple. @jld is giving you advice - that will work super well provided that I2 is similar to JLD and you are similar to her H - Dug. 

My guess - you aren't similar to him. The thing you said about your wife and her not doing certain stuff - worrying about it giving you a big head - that right there - that is a huge difference. 

Maybe the simplest way to put this is - the man who knows (head) and believes (heart) what's truly important is undistracted by life's buffet of bright and shiny objects and largely uninterested in managing his own image. 






inmyprime said:


> You mean they do not know him *the way you do*. Very different :wink2:
> 
> Isn't there a saying....behind every great man there is a great woman with a strap on...I might be misremembering.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

His objection seemed to be that she has near total control over their sex life. Full stop. 

Which is basically true. She controls frequency and schedule. 

No idea why it's so difficult for him to ask:
Why is it so important to you to have control over frequency and schedule?

Instead of doing that - ummm - his plan - was to do what he described in the OP. Which seemed less than direct and sort of manipulative to me. 





jld said:


> Okay, maybe I misunderstood, too. I thought he said he wanted genuine spontaneity with her, not a schedule.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Maybe the simplest way to put this is - the man who knows (head) and believes (heart) what's truly important is undistracted by life's buffet of bright and shiny objects and largely uninterested in managing his own image.


Wow, this is very good, MEM.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> His objection seemed to be that she has near total control over their sex life. Full stop.
> 
> Which is basically true. She controls frequency and schedule.
> 
> ...


I agree it sounded manipulative. And that means it is likely to hurt him as well as her. 

How about just asking her the bolded, Alex, as MEM suggests?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> His objection seemed to be that she has near total control over their sex life. Full stop.
> 
> Which is basically true. She controls frequency and schedule.


Throughout the thread, I was trying to (gently) slip in another possibility: that *she doesn't know that she is doing it* or that if she *is* doing it, doesn't know to what extent it affect's Alexm or that it matters at all to him. *Because they have sex every week on the same day doesn't have to mean it is somebody's grand master plan!*

It would be interesting to hear from Mrs Alexm though I guess impossible...

It comes back to my comment about randomness: just because we see a pattern, doesn't mean something isn't random (as in: Alex is attributing meaning to her behaviour, that may not be the way she means it or wants it to come across).



MEM2020 said:


> Why is it so important to you to have control over frequency and schedule?


I would first start with a less loaded question.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> How about just asking her the bolded, Alex, as MEM suggests?


He can ask ten times and half the time she'll get defensive and shut down and the other half she'll give cockamamie answers that skirt the realm of believability.

No offense but there's a reason I coined the term "Peanut Gallery"..... To someone stuck with an LD partner the above is self evident...


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> With respect, and please know that I am saying this out of sincere concern for you: you are not qualified to make the judgement what issues it may have left, even if there were no physical ones.


Thank you for your concern. I appreciate it very much. 

I acknowledge that I'm damaged but my abuse definitely could have been so much worse and I don't generally focus on it (unless I'm on TAM and think my story can help someone else). I did celebrate when I heard a few years ago that my abuser died.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

jld said:


> I think a lot of guys here are emotionally dependent on their wives. Not that they do not love them, but that emotional dependence can complicate the dynamics. Jmo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think there are women who share your sentiment. It can feel threatening and scary to think that your partner needs you emotionally, and some women trigger on it. It makes their attraction go down, they feel less safe, etc. 

But I also think it works against deep intimacy to hold your partner at arm's length--man or woman. While some people have more trouble opening up and being vulnerable to their partner, others struggle to *receive* that sort of open intimacy. 

It's when both sides work on stepping outside of their "intimacy comfort zones" that some really amazing things happen as far as closeness and bonding between two people go. 

It does take a certain amount of emotional self-control, reflection, and willingness to keep going even when it *feels* uncomfortable. It also takes two people working together with intention and with a common goal of reaching deep, two-way intimacy. I only know a couple of couples who practice it. And it is a practice--it's not a thing you just achieve one day and then you have it forever. It's a way of "doing" a relationship. 

Again, very deep emotional trust can help in this process.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think there are women who share your sentiment. It can feel threatening and scary to think that your partner needs you emotionally, and some women trigger on it. It makes their attraction go down, they feel less safe, etc.
> 
> But I also think it works against deep intimacy to hold your partner at arm's length--man or woman. While some people have more trouble opening up and being vulnerable to their partner, others struggle to *receive* that sort of open intimacy.
> 
> ...


And a great desire to stay together, surely. 

I do not have any desire to be with a man who I consider needy. And a guy like that would not want to be with me, either. We would both be needing something in the other that neither of us would be capable of giving. There would be no attraction.

I am needy, and my husband is not. And that seems to work for us.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I would first start with a less loaded question.


That is a good point. Maybe something like, "To me it seems like you control the frequency and schedule of our sex life. Do you see it differently? How so?"


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Keeping him happy? How would you feel about a man you had to "keep happy"? Does it not sound like a chore you have to get done?
> 
> I don't think that is what Alex wants, anyway.
> 
> Dug, do you participate here to "keep me happy"?


How else would you describe it? You said yourself that he would not be here of his own volition; he is here because you asked him to be here. Because it makes you feel loved. 

Just because you do something to make someone happy doesn't mean that you do it begrudgingly or that it is a chore. 

Nor does it mean that you are obliged to "keep them happy" for every moment of every day.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> The fun part of this debate - is the same as any other. WHY?
> 
> You can see WHAT is happening pretty easy. But WHY folks do or don't do. That's interesting.
> ...


So what you are saying is that physical distance is important for *men* to keep up their passion?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> How else would you describe it? You said yourself that he would not be here of his own volition; he is here because you asked him to be here. Because it makes you feel loved.
> 
> *Just because you do something to make someone happy doesn't mean that you do it begrudgingly or that it is a chore. *
> 
> Nor does it mean that you are obliged to "keep them happy" for every moment of every day.


Okay, this might be the disconnect. When I hear, "keep them happy," to me that sounds like you are trying to pacify someone.

Dug will have to answer for himself if he feels like he is pacifying me by being here.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> (note: my dissertation research had a lot to do with rational and irrational decision making)
> 
> During the initial phases, yes. We do make silly decisions based on "love".
> 
> Alas, we aren't talking about that. Nobody is madly in the fog of love 25 years into an LTR. If they are, my hat's off to them. My model of an LTR is a lot more transactional than emotional.


LOL! You don't need to be in a romantic "fog" to be completely irrational about affairs of the heart.

I'll reiterate. Expecting people to act rationally in relationships is setting yourself up to be wrong.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> That is a good point. Maybe something like, "To me it seems like you control the frequency and schedule of our sex life. Do you see it differently? How so?"


Still loaded: accusing her of control without actually being sure that this is what she is doing is basically going into offensive.

Initiate it on another day, if she declines, ask her: "Have you noticed that we are intimate together on the same day, every week?" and make it known that you miss spontaneity. Words like control, frequency and schedule will not set the right tone. IMO.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I'll reiterate. Expecting people to act rationally in relationships is setting yourself up to be wrong.


You can be wrong in some instances - the not important stuff generally - but after a couple decades in an LTR you aren't going to survive the relationship without good ole rational thinking.

Ask yourself why people divorce after decades? It's not all affairs or LD or anything. They simply wake up one day, clear the fog, and off they go into their separate ways.

This is true especially when it's an issue that impacts both, like intimacy. It's one too many things not going your way and poof! As you get older - and I am - your tolerance for antics decreases​. Poof indeed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> IMP,
> The dilemma here is kind of simple. @jld is giving you advice - that will work super well provided that I2 is similar to JLD and you are similar to her H - Dug.
> 
> My guess - you aren't similar to him. The thing you said about your wife and her not doing certain stuff - worrying about it giving you a big head - that right there - that is a huge difference.


This has been my main theme throughout my posts on this thread.



MEM2020 said:


> Maybe the simplest way to put this is - the man who knows (head) and believes (heart) what's truly important is undistracted by life's buffet of bright and shiny objects and largely uninterested in managing his own image.


Maybe it's the simplest, but I am feeling somewhat dense today: I don't know what the last paragraph means or how it connects to the situation in question :frown2:

Who is trying to manage their image?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> And a great desire to stay together, surely.
> 
> I do not have any desire to be with a man who I consider needy. And a guy like that would not want to be with me, either. We would both be needing something in the other that neither of us would be capable of giving. There would be no attraction.
> 
> I am needy, and my husband is not. And that seems to work for us.


I am not at all needy. People often like me for that very reason. For example, I have friends who work as caregivers, psychologists, and other professions where they spend their days caring for needy people -- and they tell me that I am that one place where they can go to express their anxieties and frustrations and regain their center. 

My husband isn't needy either. But he does depend on me emotionally, and I depend on him. I guess I don't see why emotional dependence equates with neediness or why just because both people have needs that they can't have attraction for one another. With my husband, it's just a matter of course that we look out for each other in all aspects of our lives, in sickness and health, in hardship and abundance. Sometimes he has more needs than I do. Other times, I'm the one turning to him to be my rock. It's this interdependence that I think makes us both stronger. 

More generally, I think it's very wise to counsel people to learn how to take care of themselves, to make their own happiness and not always wait around for someone else to provide for them. But just as wise to also give them space to be human. 

And I guess I'm having difficulty believing that you are as needy as you present yourself to be in this thread. Certainly you give the impression of being pretty tough!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> You can be wrong in some instances - the not important stuff generally - but after a couple decades in an LTR you aren't going to survive the relationship without good ole rational thinking.
> 
> Ask yourself why people divorce after decades? It's not all affairs or LD or anything. They simply wake up one day, clear the fog, and off they go into their separate ways.
> 
> This is true especially when it's an issue that impacts both, like intimacy. It's one too many things not going your way and poof! As you get older - and I am - your tolerance for antics decreases​. Poof indeed.


Maybe I spoke too strongly. Obviously we have our rational elements. 

But mostly they are rationalizations for what we want and feel.

There is nothing rational about my love for my husband or his for me. Nor is there anything especially foggy about it. I know him very, very well, and he knows me. Warts and all. 

And we're 20 years in. Surely that counts as LTR.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

jld said:


> And a great desire to stay together, surely.
> 
> I do not have any desire to be with a man who I consider needy. And a guy like that would not want to be with me, either. We would both be needing something in the other that neither of us would be capable of giving. There would be no attraction.
> 
> I am needy, and my husband is not. And that seems to work for us.


I think most people are not attracted to "neediness" in the pejorative sense, which is how I think you are using it. 

But, in the pursuit of deep, two-way intimacy, it's also useful to question and discuss one's negative reactions towards a partner WITH that partner instead of just shutting them down as "needy" or "too critical" or whatever the case may be. 

I've found it illuminating to challenge and examine my own negative reactions in *all* my relationships, not just my marriage. Often, there is more to be learned about ourselves if we scratch beneath the surface of our initial reactions. We trigger for various reasons, and getting to the bottom of those reasons can remove impediments to intimacy in marriage. After all, if you are committed to one another, then why not go deep?

In my opinion, one of the hardest reactions for many women to examine in themselves is what "turns them off" about their partner. 

No one goes looking for the type of partner that turns them off, but we all have "least favorite" behaviors from a spouse. For you, it's neediness, for someone else it might be someone who seems to need them too little. When we look at our long-term partners and see behaviors that we don't like, it can be helpful (and very bonding) to find ways to fully understand our reactions to them so that we can better communicate our feelings instead of just shutting down or displaying negative behaviors of our own.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Honestly, that whole dynamic looks complicated and codependent to me. I don't mind being emotionally dependent on my husband. But I could never be with a man who depended emotionally on me.


This almost comes across as a phobia (a phobia of the husband showing any signs of 'weakness'). It doesn't have to be so black and white in terms of emotional dependency coming from either one side or the other. It can be a huge sign of trust, if the man is able to sometimes open up to his wife emotionally. Some women may be put off by it because they don't know how to handle or what to do when that happens.
"Emotional neediness" is another one of those words that can mean different things, to different people, and have strange connotations.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I like that. 

Better delivery. 

Thing is - pacing matters. Make the statement and then give her some room to respond. Slow. Easy. 

Radiating anxiety at someone is NOT nice. And pacing correlates to anxiety almost 100%.





jld said:


> That is a good point. Maybe something like, "To me it seems like you control the frequency and schedule of our sex life. Do you see it differently? How so?"


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> And a great desire to stay together, surely.
> 
> I do not have any desire to be with a man who I consider needy. And a guy like that would not want to be with me, either. We would both be needing something in the other that neither of us would be capable of giving. There would be no attraction.
> 
> I am needy, and my husband is not. And that seems to work for us.


How can you be sure that your husband is 100% comfortable with that role you put him in? (not having any emotional needs). I am not saying he is not, it's just that whenever I hear that kind of certainty from one side, something nags at me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The love and emotions definitely have an irrational component. But in the case of mismatch, would you expect more rational or more irrational thinking?

Think of the old adage that sex is not important unless you aren't having any. That gives you a significant clarity to see the relationship for what it really is, versus thru rose color glasses. It's because of that aspect I don't believe the tam peanut gallery can understand us. Being in the fog of their own relationship is great, but makes it very difficult to understand what's on the other side of the railroad tracks.

I'm speaking from experience here. I thought I could fix it too, because even when our marriage was getting to be toast intimacy didn't stop. It slowly slowly, too deliberately, slowed down. Then the clarity started descending. 

Not a fun position to be in. But you do what you need to do to get thru.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,
I respect you for asking me direct like that. Truth is - hormones matter. You take away a mans testosterone - or at least you take away a lot of it - he acts different - he FEELS different. 

You know they have one of those "Low T" centers near our house. Couple times I asked M2 - you want me to go there - you know - get treated. 

She genuinely looked frightened. I teased her a little the first time - but not the second time. The second time I just said what was true - she ought to relax - we were good - told her I was just playing - but I would not play about it anymore. 

I am going to do a separate thread on this - but - you can have an AWESOME emotional connection with minimal passion. That is neither good nor bad - it is just true. 










wild jade said:


> So what you are saying is that physical distance is important for *men* to keep up their passion?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> The love and emotions definitely have an irrational component. But in the case of mismatch, would you expect more rational or more irrational thinking?


Some of the time, I would expect irrational thinking (while that person is thinking they are being rational), other times I would expect the opposite. Does it help?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> This almost comes across as a phobia (a phobia of the husband showing any signs of 'weakness'). It doesn't have to be so black and white in terms of emotional dependency coming from either one side or the other. It can be a huge sign of trust, if the man is able to sometimes open up to his wife emotionally. *Some women may be put off by it because they don't know how to handle or what to do when that happens.*
> "Emotional neediness" is another one of those words that can mean different things, to different people, and have strange connotations.


I think there is a lot of truth to this. It seems to set off a "fight or flight" response in some women when they perceive that their partner is reaching out with an emotional need--especially if they perceive that their partner might be asking them to work on something. 

I think it can come from fear of not being "good enough," or it can be that the woman is unsure how deep her partner's emotional needs run and she is being pre emptive about shutting down potential "neediness." It can also be a fear of a power shift that leads to the inability to get her own needs met. 

Whatever the cause, that icky feeling leads to a wall being thrown up. I think if more women would peek behind the wall, they'd see that their man's needs usually are not that threatening or complex or scary after all. But getting past that initial "fight or flight" response, as I said, takes some intentional work.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> My model of an LTR is a lot more transactional than emotional.


Do you think a partner can be onto it? And build up defences, because of it?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Why does it make you sick?
> 
> I think it is heartwarming when people say loving things about their spouses, as long as they are true. I love to see men praise their wives, and defend them against the horrible things some people here say about them. It makes me trust them.
> 
> Congrats on your career success, btw. You certainly live in a different socio-economic orbit than most of us do.


I was joking. I think the PDA between you two is cute :wink2: (Don't know if it _can_ be called PDA on an anonymous forum. Maybe ADAFD: anonymous display of affection for Dug :smthumbup:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Okay, maybe I misunderstood, too. I thought he said he wanted genuine spontaneity with her, not a schedule.


Would it be a problem, if she was "in charge" of spontaneity too, I wonder?


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

alexm said:


> No, not at all. She gives as good as she gets.
> 
> If anything, I would say she's 50/50 as far as giving and taking goes, and I'm 70/30 on the giving/submissive side (but 50/50 with her, because that's what she wants)


More and more I relate to your wife. Me too! Also, my husband might vociferously deny this :laugh: but he's around the same. This might just one of those anecdotes that leads to something of a clue.



alexm said:


> If we're putting numbers on this:
> 
> My wife's O rate - 100%
> 
> ...


Again, that's me! The "why" is because the physical part is exceedingly easy once the right mechanics are learned/taught. In the beginning of our relationship, my husband was the only one who took the time to learn the mechanics thoroughly. Now, I'm a lot older, more confident and if the worst happened, I think I could teach someone how to get me there physically every single time--if they were willing to listen.

The mental part--I don't think anyone but my husband could even get remotely close. I am extremely grateful for him.



> We have an example of this in this thread - an LD woman who will only engage in sex if she's sure she'll O.


For me, engaging without an O is at best doing laundry. At worst, it's being used. I haven't had sex without an orgasm that didn't produce either of those two sensations, unfortunately.





alexm said:


> I'm not built that way. To me (and I'm not alone in this)* sex simply shouldn't be like that.*


What if your wife is built differently? (I mean, not what if. She is obviously built differently.) 

I keep on sympathizing with your wife without actually knowing if we are at all alike. As far as being built differently, the great part of sex that keeps me coming back isn't the anticipation. It's the physical part, the orgasms that actually drive me to a higher emotional state. Which I don't want all the time, can be fairly torturous if I'm not ready for it and if I'm not feeling the physical part, puts me in a chore-like position. 

When we have friction in my marriage is because a) I can't have the passionate spontaneous sex without "scheduling" it to clear all my mental debris (not sponteneous) and b) he doesn't accept even the nicest duty sex, which I consider a blessing. However, the friction is lessened by having a lot of non-sexual physical contact and having a mental and/or emotional connection that includes a lot of very blunt discourse and a lot of forgiveness for elevated emotional hostility if it leads to a solution.

Which is why I don't find @MEM2020's question loaded. The minefield, imo, is how the asker will take any answer given. My husband likes and works with the blunt stuff. I have found that many men do not like it and will hedge my bets on what answer will be well received enough to get off my back which will be "the truth," but will not damage egos.

I can't tell from the board @alexm if your wife is capable of being extra blunt or if you do any number of things that "signal" that you may not be receptive to some real hostile answers.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FrenchFry,

Love this post. 

While I am not hyper stable like Dug is - I have however ALWAYS tried my best to respond 100% positively to honest feedback. 

Really and truly a big part of what makes M2 irresistible - is the transparent way she responds to these type questions.





FrenchFry said:


> More and more I relate to your wife. Me too! Also, my husband might vociferously deny this :laugh: but he's around the same. This might just one of those anecdotes that leads to something of a clue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







FrenchFry said:


> More and more I relate to your wife. Me too! Also, my husband might vociferously deny this :laugh: but he's around the same. This might just one of those anecdotes that leads to something of a clue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Do you think a partner can be onto it? And build up defences, because of it?


In many cultures marriage is a lot more transactional than we think. Move up in income and it's transactional even here. And, like with any transaction, you gotta watch your back.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Got married at X - which was identical to M2's income at the time - we were both 27.

Just under ten years later was earning 10x.

Her behavior never changed. 

Not all marriages are transactional. 




john117 said:


> In many cultures marriage is a lot more transactional than we think. Move up in income and it's transactional even here. And, like with any transaction, you gotta watch your back.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not all transactions are income based.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

As usual you attempt to retain the high ground by being cryptic. 

At home we label this - power play - describing it in a child's slowly enunciated singsong voice: 

I know something you don't know

And then we laugh at the person doing it and go on about our day. 




john117 said:


> Not all transactions are income based.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

IMP,
This is a tough one. M2 is not a big fan of weakness. In fact - she does have a visceral - intensely negative reaction to me expressing raw fear. It is our single bone on bone conflict when it happens. Fortunately - that is very rare. 

My view: I am human and do have moments where I feel fear 
Her view: Sure - yeah - I get that. So you have a choice - you can either be afraid of whatever it is you are afraid of - or you can be afraid of me radiating close to pure hostility at you. Your choice. And to be clear the hostility has a goal which is easily described: When are you going to man the **** up and do your job? 

Every partner - has pluses and minuses. For me, this is M2's biggest minus. 

Doesn't happen that often. 

And - to be fair - while I dislike it - I also completely understand it. 

I'm in charge of security. So - it is extraordinarily upsetting - when the guy in charge of security - seems genuinely frightened. 

And just to be clear - there is fear and there is dysfunction. She's generally fine with the former, provided it doesn't cause the latter. 

If I say: I was seriously scared, even so it seemed obvious that XYZ was the right move - so I did XYZ. 

If it all played out well, M2 nods and says thank you. 




inmyprime said:


> This almost comes across as a phobia (a phobia of the husband showing any signs of 'weakness'). It doesn't have to be so black and white in terms of emotional dependency coming from either one side or the other. It can be a huge sign of trust, if the man is able to sometimes open up to his wife emotionally. Some women may be put off by it because they don't know how to handle or what to do when that happens.
> "Emotional neediness" is another one of those words that can mean different things, to different people, and have strange connotations.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> In many cultures marriage is a lot more transactional than we think. Move up in income and it's transactional even here. And, like with any transaction, you gotta watch your back.


John--sorry if this is too personal, but do you think she ever just....loved you?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> As usual you attempt to retain the high ground by being cryptic.
> 
> ...


I actually do know something you don't know 😁

Here is the study guide for my single sentence...

I don't attribute magic powers to the institution of marriage. It's the give and take, and the compromises made between partners, consciously or not.

Under the hood, all this really gets processed by the same mental models that run our lives. Those models are inherently based on cost benefit analysis and risk/reward, meaning they're as transactional as getting liquor from Costco.

We may romanticize the emotional side of things but at the end of the day the practical aspects win out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> John--sorry if this is too personal, but do you think she ever just....loved you?


In her own way, and to the level provisioned to her by her ethnic and family mental programming, she did. 

By purely western standards, it's unclear whether people in her culture love the way we do. And to be honest there's a ton of cultures I'd say that about.

(Hopefully I won't need to do the non cryptic explanation of the above 😁)


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Jade,
> I respect you for asking me direct like that. Truth is - hormones matter. You take away a mans testosterone - or at least you take away a lot of it - he acts different - he FEELS different.


Oh trust me, I know ... almost first hand. In the 20 yrs I've been with my husband, he's gone from a near constant need for sex right down to serious ED. 

In the former situation, it mattered not whether I was physically present, he was always ready for sex. And now? Doesn't matter whether I'm physically present or not, he needs space and time before he's ready for sex. And sometimes he just can't hack it. 

Me, OTOH, relatively constant all through the 20 years. Where we were once equal, we are now very different. Again, no matter about physical proximity. We spend more time together now than we ever have.

Yes, absolutely, you can have an awesome emotional connection with zero passion. You can also have a massive sex drive with zero passion. IMHO, passion isn't the same thing as the need/desire to get off.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> I actually do know something you don't know 😁
> 
> Here is the study guide for my single sentence...
> 
> ...


LOL. Not. If people actually were practical about these things, they would behave in ways that would make them ever so much easier to live with. But they just aren't. We want what we want and we'll be as stupid as all get out to get it, whether it makes any sense or not.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> LOL. Not. If people actually were practical about these things, they would behave in ways that would make them ever so much easier to live with. But they just aren't. We want what we want and we'll be as stupid as all get out to get it, whether it makes any sense or not.


Being stupid doesn't change the basic premise of my position. We see great value in "acting stupid" and we do 😁

It's really simple. We rationalize​ things therefore we act...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Doesn't that viewpoint mean that - as soon as your partner loses their ability to - make a net positive transactional contribution - you dump them? 





john117 said:


> I actually do know something you don't know 😁
> 
> Here is the study guide for my single sentence...
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> Doesn't that viewpoint mean that - as soon as your partner loses their ability to - make a net positive transactional contribution - you dump them?


Yes and no. We see the yes part all the time. Look at stay at home dad's. We see the no part too. Perhaps there's some built up goodwill or expectation of future "earnings" or the cost of dumping exceeds some threshold... 

Speaking personally, from my viewpoint, yes. I'm​ not getting positive return from her, so pull the cord and bail. From her viewpoint, no. There's a lot of intrinsic value left in me, successful professional, takes care of things... 

Thus we can conclude that the advantage of NOT having sex is greater than the advantage of being married to a successful professional, lifestyle, etc. Likewise the disadvantages. Common sense tells us this is a no-win scenario.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think he means you marry for something in return, other than love.

I think it used to be more like this in the past. It is less so now. In some cultures, it is still prevalent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> IMP,
> 
> This is a tough one. M2 is not a big fan of weakness. In fact - she does have a visceral - intensely negative reaction to me expressing raw fear. It is our single bone on bone conflict when it happens. Fortunately - that is very rare.
> 
> ...




I know what you mean and also why you might perceive her reaction this way to you laying out your 'fears' bare onto the table BUT...this reaction on her part does not have to be necessarily aimed at YOU but at the potential futility of the situation or HER own fear of not being able to cope with it. You (or other men in that situation) might conclude that she doesn't want you to be honest about your fears with her in future and build up emotional distance while I'm not sure this is necessarily the right thing to conclude (I'm not saying this is what you do, just throwing another perspective). 
Nor that it is the most beneficial way of going about this.
Have you read about why Japanese airlines used to have so much trouble with abnormal rates of plane crashes in the past?
Because in Japanese culture, respect for hierarchy is the highest creed to the possible detriment of everything else and if the first officer knew that the captain was making a fatal mistake or not making the right choice, he would often not say anything, out of respect. Because a higher authority can not be wrong.
A roundabout way to say that it's important to learn to face certain fears together to make better decisions and try to leave the ego out of it.
It's of course also about 'delivery' from the husband's part.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Oh trust me, I know ... almost first hand. In the 20 yrs I've been with my husband, he's gone from a near constant need for sex right down to serious ED.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes exactly (re the last paragraph). 'Expression of Passion' is a bit of a mystery to me and the level or intensity of it must be a highly subjective experience. Even if I feel my wife's levels of passion are 20% from my vantage point, as I wrote earlier, who is to say that she doesn't experience it as 120% herself? Is my perception the definitive one? If it is not, do I have the right to moan about it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes exactly (re the last paragraph). 'Expression of Passion' is a bit of a mystery to me and it's probably the level or intensity of it lies in the eye of the beholder. Even if I feel my wife's levels of passion are 20% as I wrote earlier, who is to say that she doesn't experience it as 120% herself? Is my perception the definitive one? If it is not, do I have the right to moan about it?


Was it always like this? Did she used to be 100%, in your perception?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Yes and no. We see the yes part all the time. Look at stay at home dad's. We see the no part too. Perhaps there's some built up goodwill or expectation of future "earnings" or the cost of dumping exceeds some threshold...
> 
> Speaking personally, from my viewpoint, yes. I'm​ not getting positive return from her, so pull the cord and bail. From her viewpoint, no. There's a lot of intrinsic value left in me, successful professional, takes care of things...
> 
> Thus we can conclude that the advantage of NOT having sex is greater than the advantage of being married to a successful professional, lifestyle, etc. Likewise the disadvantages. Common sense tells us this is a no-win scenario.




So you are staying for Her benefit?
It is possible that there is an element of benefit left for YOU but you don't see it, the 'non-transactional' love on your part? 
The bitterness that comes across in some of your posts (sorry if I got it wrong) may be masking it and your real feelings for her.
I think you would have left long ago if you lived purely by what you preached 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Was it always like this? Did she used to be 100%, in your perception?




No, there are times (rare) where I feel we are on 'par' (or the gap is much closer). The 20% is an 'average'. That is why I feel there's a lot I can do to make this a more frequent experience (or to make sure that at least I don't stay in the way of it!)
I sometimes think of her as a 'secret garden' with many sections that are not known, even to her. I want to help her discover them. But maybe I'm just being selfish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I think he means you marry for something in return, other than love.
> 
> I think it used to be more like this in the past. It is less so now. In some cultures, it is still prevalent.


Yes, I think this is it, too.

John, it would help if you could just express yourself simply and clearly. I know you are from another culture, and you did "long studies," as the French say. All that education, particularly at the PhD level, is bound to affect not only how you think, but how you express yourself, too.

But the ability to explain complicated ideas simply and clearly is actually, according to at least one professor I had in college, a sign of successful education, and, imo, intelligence.

As far as the above idea, clearly stated by imp, I get it. I did not marry out of hopeless romanticism either. Dug was a good deal for me. 

Dug did marry for love. I still do not know why, but he really is crazy about me, 24 years on.

Isn't it great that some people are that pure? Balances out us less than pure people who are still sometimes rationally analyzing our return on possibly the biggest "deal" of our lives. And in john's case, deciding to pull out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> No, there are times (rare) where I feel we are on 'par'. *The 20% is an 'average'.* That is why I feel there's a lot I can do to make this a more frequent experience (or to make sure that at least I don't stay in the way of it!)
> I sometimes think of her as a 'secret garden' with many sections that are not known, even to her. I want to help her discover them. But maybe I'm just being selfish.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So sometimes it is less than 20%?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> So sometimes it is less than 20%?




I'm not sure putting numbers on passion makes it any more clear actually. Often times, the mismatch is just great enough between what I feel and what I feel she feels and it gives me all kinds of crappy thoughts 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ps: lack of expression of it (some call it spontaneous desire), of the kind Alex described of his wife; those are all symptoms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ps: lack of expression of it (some call it spontaneous desire), of the kind Alex described of his wife; those are all symptoms.


I agree. That is why I disagree with any kind of manipulative approach. 

I have read men here say that they told their wives, "Twice a week or divorce!" And they think that is some kind of masculine move, and some sort of victory when she kicks it up to twice a week, probably with the occasional faking that jade described, if the wife thinks that is what is required to calm him down and "keep him happy."

If you want genuine desire, you have to genuinely inspire it. It is up to you to make her want it. Not out of fear of what she might lose by not "complying" with some sort of threat you come up with, but out of genuine desire, genuine passion, for you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I agree. That is why I disagree with any kind of manipulative approach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ideally, of course! But there are also cases where this route has been exploited fully then you need plan b! Case by case assessment is necessary. There are no general rules.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ideally, of course! But there are also cases where this route has been exploited fully then you need plan b! Case by case assessment is necessary. There are no general rules.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, you can't say you were not warned.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Alex, Saturday has come and gone, do you have an update? How did you navigate the regularly scheduled time?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> In her own way, and to the level provisioned to her by her ethnic and family mental programming, she did.
> 
> By purely western standards, it's unclear whether people in her culture love the way we do. And to be honest there's a ton of cultures I'd say that about.
> 
> (Hopefully I won't need to do the non cryptic explanation of the above 😁)


You mention your wife's culture and background a lot - but she was always derived from that particular culture, so how did it suddenly become such an insurmountable issue now so many years later?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> You expect love relationships to be rational? Well, that's your first mistake right there ...


Nope, not saying that at all.

What John said would be the ideal, and is how I, and many others, view the topic. But obviously many, many others complicate the whole subject. This thread is proof 

I've always said, it's such a simple thing, sex, yet many people attach so many things to it, and it gets murky.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Nope, not saying that at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sex is a simple thing. 'Expressing the desire to want it in such a way so that your partner is happy' is a bit more complicated, yes 

It would be helpful to know what her reaction is and what she says, when you bring up the subject.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> I am not one, but I can understand how a woman could come to be: His neglect, his disrespect, his deprioritizing of her . . . or even worse, his mockery/manipulation of her . . . all of these are withdrawals from her emotional bank account.
> 
> Even just one, if it is big enough, could drain the whole account.


Ah, but none of those fit in with my, or IMP's situations, do they?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I am not at all needy. People often like me for that very reason. For example, I have friends who work as caregivers, psychologists, and other professions where they spend their days caring for needy people -- and they tell me that I am that one place where they can go to express their anxieties and frustrations and regain their center.
> 
> My husband isn't needy either. But he does depend on me emotionally, and I depend on him. I guess I don't see why emotional dependence equates with neediness or why just because both people have needs that they can't have attraction for one another. With my husband, it's just a matter of course that we look out for each other in all aspects of our lives, in sickness and health, in hardship and abundance. Sometimes he has more needs than I do. Other times, I'm the one turning to him to be my rock. It's this interdependence that I think makes us both stronger.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty needy. I am a total baby with Dug. 

Your relationship with your husband sounds good. It does not sound like either of you finds any of it stressful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Ah, but none of those fit in with my, or IMP's situations, do they?


Your wives are not refusers, no. 

Do they bring the spontaneous passion you both seem to want? No. Does that have something to do with their husbands? Not sure.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Returning back to @alexm 's issue, after you spoke with her about it, has anything changed? What was her response?
> 
> "Yes, I've talked to her about this. She knows I don't like this scheduled/expected sex life. It removes any sort of anticipation or excitement from it."
> 
> ...


Scheduled.

That's a very loaded question, and there's no right answer. All I know is I don't want it to be like this.

I guess I would like a partner who does not attach conditions to sex. As John said earlier (paraphrasing here), sex is fun and brings people together emotionally. We love each other, sex is pleasurable with each other, let's have sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> You mention your wife's culture and background a lot - but she was always derived from that particular culture, so how did it suddenly become such an insurmountable issue now so many years later?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Because immigrants tend to "find culture" as they get older, something that I know about being an immigrant myself (haven't been afflicted tho). She also was diagnosed with adult onset BPD about 9 years ago. Right now I have a feeling we're dealing with something even more difficult than BPD... Oh well.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Scheduled.
> 
> That's a very loaded question, and there's no right answer. *All I know is I don't want it to be like this.*
> 
> I guess I would like a partner who does not attach conditions to sex. As John said earlier (paraphrasing here), sex is fun and brings people together emotionally. We love each other, sex is pleasurable with each other, let's have sex.


I totally get that. But 'not wanting it like this' is passive. Talking to her about it and exploring ways together how it can be different: that's more proactive. (That is, if she wants to participate). I wonder how proactive you have been so far.
I know this is a big issue for men: inability to express a need. There seems to be a lot of stigma attached to it (possibly because of the fear that some women cannot stand or don't know what to do with neediness). Or that it is showing a weakness. Many men then tend to bury themselves and slowly build resentment. This creates a vicious circle for a relationship because women cannot read men's minds (not always anyway  Someone has to step up and break that circle. It's not going to happen by itself.

Obviously I am totally speculating. But I keep trying to establish what her reaction is or how this type of conversation goes, typically.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Scheduled.
> 
> That's a very loaded question, and there's no right answer. All I know is I don't want it to be like this.
> 
> I guess I would like a partner who does not attach conditions to sex. As John said earlier (paraphrasing here), sex is fun and brings people together emotionally. We love each other, sex is pleasurable with each other, let's have sex.


But you *do* have sex  And she *does* have fun when you have it. And it *could* really be that simple if you noticed it 
Not having it scheduled would be the easiest thing in the world for her to change, provided you can get yourself to go through a few simple steps. Like i said, if you find initiating this conversation difficult, wait until you start sex the next time, pause for a second and ask her if she noticed that it happens every week, on the same day? Hold on, you can't, because last time it didn't happen on a Saturday...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> This almost comes across as a phobia (a phobia of the husband showing any signs of 'weakness'). It doesn't have to be so black and white in terms of emotional dependency coming from either one side or the other. It can be a huge sign of trust, if the man is able to sometimes open up to his wife emotionally. Some women may be put off by it because they don't know how to handle or what to do when that happens.
> "Emotional neediness" is another one of those words that can mean different things, to different people, and have strange connotations.


There is nothing wrong with a man's sharing his feelings with his wife. Dug certainly does that with me. We have very open and honest conversations.

As Dug said once on another thread, the problem comes when a man expects his wife to _take responsibility _for his feelings.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> There is nothing wrong with a man's sharing his feelings with his wife. Dug certainly does that with me. We have very open and honest conversations.
> 
> As Dug said once on another thread, the problem comes when a man expects his wife to _take responsibility _for his feelings.


But what does it mean *in practice*? Maybe it would be helpful to have specific examples.

If your husband came to you to complain about a difficult work colleague: at what point of the conversation are you taking responsibility for his frustration?

Can you provide an example of a situation where you feel you would be "taking responsibility"?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

alexm said:


> We love each other, sex is pleasurable with each other, let's have sex.


How is wanting to withhold sex from your wife going to facilitate sharing sex with her?



alexm said:


> All I know is I don't want it to be like this.


How often do you initiate sex with your wife, and what do you do or say to initiate that sex?

How often does your wife initiate sex with you, and what does she do or say to initiate that sex?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's no irrational bad decisions. There are rationalized bad decisions. 

Lemme give you a bad love influenced example. If you're familiar with Costco you know the tradition of Saturday food samples. We've been going to the local Costco since it opened aeons ago and know the employees well. So one of the old timers working food samples starts telling us about her son who got a full ride to UC Berkeley engineering and is unhappy because his girlfriend is in the local state​ university​ and he wants to transfer here too.

So mom flew there to talk sense... His choice seems irrational, but put yourself in his shoes, first year engineering, he's URM, knows nobody... It's panic time. He can rationalize his decision ten different ways so to him it makes sense...

It's only when you look at the forest and not the trees that the wrongness is apparent. Same with intimacy. Why spend an hour being intimate when there's CNN to watch? 

At some point if the impact to the relationship is understood maybe progress can be made. The problem is the ramifications are not immediately obvious, just like Berkeley vs Louisville. As I told his mom, Louisville gets you a job at GE appliances designing ovens, and Berkeley gets you to Google. It's four years away either case, but not immediately obvious. Just like scheduled intimacy, it provides fewer "worries" now but the implications down the road are far more significant.

His mom told me he was going to call the kid and explain my message in more detail... Generally the lack of a planning horizon is not conducive to proper decision making...

Besides, it's not like Louisville or Berkeley will win an NCAA title anytime soon 😁


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@john117

Why do you assume that irrational decisions are bad decisions.

I disagree with your case analysis BTW. Yes, the Berkeley name has a lot of cachet that maybe Louisville doesn't, and surely young dude will make new friends and forget all about his current gf as he enjoys the California sunshine.

But the future isn't so readily easy to predict or control. There are people working at Google that went to Institution Nowhere, and there are people from Berkeley working at Deadend Job. 

Will he find that the girl he let go back home to be the one that got away? Unlikely, but I've seen it happen before ...

The upshot is that we make all sorts of decisions based purely on what we want emotionally, buy a house, be with a lover, travel the world instead of climbing the corporate ladder. These can be very bad decisions, but they can also be very good ones.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> At some point if the impact to the relationship *is understood* maybe progress can be made.


Another passive statement.

I am not saying taking the energy and time to explain things to their partner is a 'cure for all' but the way it is phrased here implies expectations of telepathy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> There's no irrational bad decisions. There are rationalized bad decisions.
> 
> Lemme give you a bad love influenced example. If you're familiar with Costco you know the tradition of Saturday food samples. We've been going to the local Costco since it opened aeons ago and know the employees well. So one of the old timers working food samples starts telling us about her son who got a full ride to UC Berkeley engineering and is unhappy because his girlfriend is in the local state​ university​ and he wants to transfer here too.
> 
> ...


You mean one can make a wrong decision for all the right reasons and vice versa?
This is true. Sometimes only with hindsight. 
It often happens when not all the facts are available at the time of making a decision or when rationalisation is skewed by some bias.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Yes exactly (re the last paragraph). 'Expression of Passion' is a bit of a mystery to me and the level or intensity of it must be a highly subjective experience. Even if I feel my wife's levels of passion are 20% from my vantage point, as I wrote earlier, who is to say that she doesn't experience it as 120% herself? Is my perception the definitive one? If it is not, do I have the right to moan about it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, I find it mysterious too. I really have no idea how I would measure or compare my level of passion. Or what is the right amount of passion to have or how that would be expressed.

I liked to lose myself in sex, but I can no longer do that with my husband's ED. It has to be very much more controlled. Does that mean I've lost passion? Has he? Don't really know ....


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Nope, not saying that at all.
> 
> What John said would be the ideal, and is how I, and many others, view the topic. But obviously many, many others complicate the whole subject. This thread is proof
> 
> I've always said, it's such a simple thing, sex, yet many people attach so many things to it, and it gets murky.


It isn't such a simple thing, though. It doesn't always feel good, it doesn't necessarily bring you closer together, and it isn't always a net gain for the relationship or the people in it. 

It's also a place of vulnerability and of emotional neediness. Which, if this thread is any indication, are not at all simple to navigate.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Yes, I find it mysterious too. I really have no idea how I would measure or compare my level of passion. Or what is the right amount of passion to have or how that would be expressed.
> 
> I liked to lose myself in sex, but I can no longer do that with my husband's ED. It has to be very much more controlled. Does that mean I've lost passion? Has he? Don't really know ....


I don't know enough about ED to make a 'qualified' comment....but this is interesting to me in case the future might surprise me with it one day.
Is it necessary for the man to always be able to 'perform' in order for the woman to be able to 'lose herself' in sex? Or feel validation for her passion levels?
I don't know if this happens 100% of the time (with your husband) or only sometimes but I would have thought there are many other ways to enjoy the experience together. I remember our first 8 years or so consisted of only 5-10% PIV so I could have as well had ED, it wouldn't have been very different for her physically...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Another passive statement.
> 
> I am not saying taking the energy and time to explain things to their partner is a 'cure for all' but the way it is phrased here implies expectations of telepathy.


Not quite.

There's valuable information in the "not understood" part. 

If you've been with the same partner for 10, 20, or more years and have better than room temperature IQ and EQ then you don't need everything spelled out. 

The fact that my partner considers normal for a married couple to spend 15 minutes a day talking to each other total (as per my choice to limit communication) that tells me a heck of a lot about her mindset. 

This is the same principle Alex sees. It's clear 1x at 10:58:58 pm on Friday is all she cares to dole out, so that's all he needs to know.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> You mean one can make a wrong decision for all the right reasons and vice versa?
> This is true. Sometimes only with hindsight.
> It often happens when not all the facts are available at the time of making a decision or when rationalisation is skewed by some bias.


Decision making is based on a lot of factors, including the available mental models and stereotypes​ for the individual and their sub population. If the model is flawed or not applicable, no matter how good the information is, it's flawed.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> It isn't such a simple thing, though. It doesn't always feel good, it doesn't necessarily bring you closer together, and it isn't always a net gain for the relationship or the people in it.
> 
> It's also a place of vulnerability and of emotional neediness. Which, if this thread is any indication, are not at all simple to navigate.


If it isn't a net gain, then again, that's valuable information...

Come on people, you're getting closer


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Not quite.
> 
> There's valuable information in the "not understood" part.
> 
> ...


Sorry...could you explain this to me: you are dissatisfied with her communicating with you for only 15 mins per day because...you chose to limit the communication to 15 mins....

I just had to look up the definition for "**** Test" to make sure I understand it correctly.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Decision making is based on a lot of factors, including the available mental models and stereotypes​ for the individual and their sub population. If the model is flawed or not applicable, no matter how good the information is, it's flawed.


But you discount the possibility that there might be a flaw in *your* rationalization for exactly the same reasons you just stated. Can you be sure you are the only rational one, at all times?

(not saying you are not, just wonder how you arrived at this conclusion)


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I don't know enough about ED to make a 'qualified' comment....but this is interesting to me in case the future might surprise me with it one day.
> Is it necessary for the man to always be able to 'perform' in order for the woman to be able to 'lose herself' in sex? Or feel validation for her passion levels?
> I don't know if this happens 100% of the time (with your husband) or only sometimes but I would have thought there are many other ways to enjoy the experience together. I remember our first 8 years or so consisted of only 5-10% PIV so I could have as well had ED, it wouldn't have been very different for her physically...


I wouldn't say it's necessary, but it sure does help.  ED is .... distracting. And at least for my husband it often requires very controlled attention for him to orgasm. 

I can still lose myself to a degree if, say, he is offering up oral and I'm just enjoying the moment. But for all of the shared components, be it PIV or other, the ED definitely switches up the dynamic. He can lose his erection mid-moment, which can be .... inconvenient. Or he will come ever so close to orgasm, but then lose it, and so needs very specific sorts of stimulation to carry him over the edge.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> @john117
> 
> Why do you assume that irrational decisions are bad decisions.
> 
> ...


This is very comforting, jade. Shows there is more to life than being practical.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I wouldn't say it's necessary, but it sure does help. ED is .... distracting. And at least for my husband it often requires very controlled attention for him to orgasm.
> 
> I can still lose myself to a degree if, say, he is offering up oral and I'm just enjoying the moment. But for all of the shared components, be it PIV or other, the ED definitely switches up the dynamic. He can lose his erection mid-moment, which can be .... inconvenient. Or he will come ever so close to orgasm, but then lose it, and so needs very specific sorts of stimulation to carry him over the edge.


What is his diet like? 

Dietary changes can sometimes resolve ED.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Sorry...could you explain this to me: you are dissatisfied with her communicating with you for only 15 mins per day because...you chose to limit the communication to 15 mins....
> 
> I just had to look up the definition for "**** Test" to make sure I understand it correctly.


I'm not dissatisfied for limiting conversation. It's intentional, it's a test alright as you observed. A valuable test.

I'm dissatisfied​ that there's no red light going on in her head about it. 

Alex could try not initiating at all and let her be the driver for a month. He could miss a Friday or two and see how her natural rain ticket mechanism works...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> This is very comforting, jade. Shows there is more to life than being practical.


I have a lifetime of irrational decisions behind me. LOL. I was never one to live as I "should", or that would be "most practical" and have done all sorts of things that have gotten me labelled "wild" or just plain "crazy".

But I was following my heart. And while I most certainly have made mistakes and paid the price, I would never go back to follow all the "shoulds" of rational decision making. It would change my whole life, and who I am to do so.

While I might be a bit too extreme, it's just human, IMHO, to do things that are simply following one's heart. And yes, as @john117 says, we'll rationalize them all six ways to Sunday. But that's all it is. Rationalizations aren't the same as rational.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But you discount the possibility that there might be a flaw in *your* rationalization for exactly the same reasons you just stated. Can you be sure you are the only rational one, at all times?
> 
> (not saying you are not, just wonder how you arrived at this conclusion)


There are always flaws, typically because factors you never considered as important are actually important.

The simpler the model, the more accurate it's likely to be. But if you oversimplify it's still wrong.

If you haven't read Freakonomics it's a good place to start. Very informative.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> This is very comforting, jade. Shows there is more to life than being practical.


It's a matter of understanding probabilities, something humans are notoriously bad at.

Your chances to working at Google from a local good school aren't zero, and your chances to working at Geek Squad with a Berkeley degree aren't zero either. 

But they're unbalanced enough to make it a no brainer for everyone. There's entire industries built around the fact that humans can't understand probability 😎


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > There is nothing wrong with a man's sharing his feelings with his wife. Dug certainly does that with me. We have very open and honest conversations.
> ...


This question wasn't directed at me, but I have experience with this. I had a relationship in which the man expected me to take responsibility for his feelings. He had self esteem and emotional damage from his childhood, was extremely sensitive/fragile, and would get "hurt feelings" over nothing. He couldn't admit his unreasonable reaction was the problem, wouldn't take responsibility for his reactions, he always blamed me for "hurting his feelings". Demanded I apologise for "hurting his feelings". 

And here is a lesser, but pouty scenario that was also a turn off: lunch together at a restaurant. We both ordered soup to start with. I ordered a soup I didn't think he'd like. After my soup was all eaten, he whined, you didn't even offer the me to taste your soup. I said, I didn't think it was a soup you'd be interested in. Asked why he didn't just ask for a taste if he wanted it. He whined that I should have offered. He waited until the soup was GONE, then wanted me to take responsibility that he was hurt I didn't offer a taste. Also note that he didn't offer a taste of his to me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I have a lifetime of irrational decisions behind me. LOL. I was never one to live as I "should", or that would be "most practical" and have done all sorts of things that have gotten me labelled "wild" or just plain "crazy".
> 
> But I was following my heart. And while I most certainly have made mistakes and paid the price, I would never go back to follow all the "shoulds" of rational decision making. It would change my whole life, and who I am to do so.
> 
> While I might be a bit too extreme, it's just human, IMHO, to do things that are simply following one's heart. And yes, as @john117 says, we'll rationalize them all six ways to Sunday. But that's all it is. Rationalizations aren't the same as rational.


Rationalizations are intended to make sense to us at a given time and place and state of mind. 

I'm sure Mrs Alex can rationalize six days to Friday why Friday 10:58:58 pm is right but not Sunday 9:58:58 pm. In some instances she may be - rationally - right, but she will extrapolated from those into a generalized - and irrational - preference. 

The problem is that such irrationalizations are fairly fact-proof...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> I'm not dissatisfied for limiting conversation. It's intentional, it's a test alright as you observed. A valuable test.
> 
> I'm dissatisfied​ that there's no red light going on in her head about it.
> 
> Alex could try not initiating at all and let her be the driver for a month. He could miss a Friday or two and see how her natural rain ticket mechanism works...


That seems a little passive aggressive to me. What if they don't see it as a **** test and take it at face value: think it is your actual preference?

It seems (from what you have described) you are pushing her as far as possible, to see how far she will allow you to push her and then get hurt. Is it possible she is thinking she is being considerate by letting you push her? Isn't it some form of sado-masochism?

Is it a weakness to express to your partner if there is a need for something? 

I don't mean to dismiss your problem: I know *exactly* how this feeling arises. I also know it is much easier to go along with this feeling and let it consume you, instead of defeating it. But you have to stop it. You also *can* stop it. My wife has helped me with this many times, I am not sure I would have been able to do it on my own. Other times, you just need to step back and look at the absurdity of the situation from the distance to see how ridiculous it is to let this get the better of you. The problem is, you can get *addicted* to this self-inflicted feeling of hurt and then it might be too late. But you have to recognize it for what it is first.

(Apologies if none of this applies to you).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But what does it mean *in practice*? Maybe it would be helpful to have specific examples.
> 
> If your husband came to you to complain about a difficult work colleague: at what point of the conversation are you taking responsibility for his frustration?


I don't know that I would take responsibility for his frustration. I have given him suggestions at times for things I thought could help him, though.

For example, I suggested a few years ago that he use active listening with his boss. It helped, as she calmed down when she felt he was hearing her.

But active listening can only go so far. Ultimately she and Dug fundamentally disagreed on how things should be done, and she fired him.



> Can you provide an example of a situation where you feel you would be "taking responsibility"?


Taking responsibility for his feelings?

Nothing is coming to mind. I don't think I have ever felt the need to.
@Duguesclin Does anything come to mind for you?

I do try to be absolutely transparent with him about my feelings. Does not mean he necessarily does anything about it, but at least he can't say he was not told.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> This question wasn't directed at me, but I have experience with this. I had a relationship in which the man expected me to take responsibility for his feelings. He had self esteem and emotional damage from his childhood, was extremely sensitive/fragile, and would get "hurt feelings" over nothing. He couldn't admit his unreasonable reaction was the problem, wouldn't take responsibility for his reactions, he always blamed me for "hurting his feelings". Demanded I apologise for "hurting his feelings".
> 
> And here is a lesser, but pouty scenario that was also a turn off: lunch together at a restaurant. We both ordered soup to start with. I ordered a soup I didn't think he'd like. After my soup was all eaten, he whined, you didn't even offer the me to taste your soup. I said, I didn't think it was a soup you'd be interested in. Asked why he didn't just ask for a taste if he wanted it. He whined that I should have offered. He waited until the soup was GONE, then wanted me to take responsibility that he was hurt I didn't offer a taste. Also note that he didn't offer a taste of his to me.


This must have driven you crazy.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> It's a matter of understanding probabilities, something humans are notoriously bad at.
> 
> Your chances to working at Google from a local good school aren't zero, and your chances to working at Geek Squad with a Berkeley degree aren't zero either.
> 
> But they're unbalanced enough to make it a no brainer for everyone. There's entire industries built around the fact that humans can't understand probability &#55357;&#56846;


Now you're just making stuff up -- 

Here is who Google hires. Berkeley didn't make this list at all, but a lot of Us with a lot less name value did make the list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google#Employees

But the real point is that people don't actually make most decisions on probabilities. And while some are based in practicalities, many aren't.

And this isn't necessarily a bad thing.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I wouldn't say it's necessary, but it sure does help. ED is .... distracting. And at least for my husband it often requires very controlled attention for him to orgasm.
> 
> I can still lose myself to a degree if, say, he is offering up oral and I'm just enjoying the moment. But for all of the shared components, be it PIV or other, the ED definitely switches up the dynamic. He can lose his erection mid-moment, which can be .... inconvenient. Or he will come ever so close to orgasm, but then lose it, and so needs very specific sorts of stimulation to carry him over the edge.


I see. I don't know if this helps or not but I have noticed that sometimes I can be in danger of sustaining an erection. It usually happens when I become passive in bed. So if my wife wants me to just lie back and enjoy a BJ, it feels great for the first 5-10 mins but then my mind begins to wander. After a while I notice that I might be going limp and if I wait a bit longer, I think sometimes I do get softer. I usually switch to something more pro active (like 69, I dunno) when I notice it happening or do something so that my mind solely focuses on sex/the moment, either with dirty talk or role play or something else. Basically I need to be "driving" things in bed, otherwise my mind just starts wandering and things quickly fall apart. I sometimes wondered whether ED can be partly a psychological thing.

Sorry, need to log off. My wife told me that if I spend more time looking at TAM than at her ass....I'm going to lose my "privileges". JLD, can you talk to her?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@john117 Do you think you hide behind your intellect sometimes? 

It is okay to just feel pain and admit it. I do think it is true that the quicker we can take responsibility for our pain, the quicker we can come to peace with it. But sometimes we have to just feel it for a while first.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> This question wasn't directed at me, but I have experience with this. I had a relationship in which the man expected me to take responsibility for his feelings. He had self esteem and emotional damage from his childhood, was extremely sensitive/fragile, and would get "hurt feelings" over nothing. He couldn't admit his unreasonable reaction was the problem, wouldn't take responsibility for his reactions, he always blamed me for "hurting his feelings". Demanded I apologise for "hurting his feelings".
> 
> And here is a lesser, but pouty scenario that was also a turn off: lunch together at a restaurant. We both ordered soup to start with. I ordered a soup I didn't think he'd like. After my soup was all eaten, he whined, you didn't even offer the me to taste your soup. I said, I didn't think it was a soup you'd be interested in. Asked why he didn't just ask for a taste if he wanted it. He whined that I should have offered. He waited until the soup was GONE, then wanted me to take responsibility that he was hurt I didn't offer a taste. Also note that he didn't offer a taste of his to me.




Ok but that's called "dumping crap on your spouse" and playing blame games. Is it what is meant by the phrase "emotional responsibility"? Is it what JLD is doing to her husband when she says that she 'absolutely needs it'? (I didn't think that that's what she meant but perhaps she could clarify).

I think 'emotional responsibility' needs to first be clearly defined otherwise it sounds like an empty phrase at the moment.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I thought you were grounded?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> It's a matter of understanding probabilities, something humans are notoriously bad at.
> 
> Your chances to working at Google from a local good school aren't zero, and your chances to working at Geek Squad with a Berkeley degree aren't zero either.
> 
> But they're unbalanced enough to make it a no brainer for everyone. There's entire industries built around the fact that humans can't understand probability




I agree that many people have no concept when it comes to probabilities. Even more so when it comes to uncertainty. Funny to observe it in action, in financial markets. Something I take advantage of when it comes to managing our assets.
(another one of my areas of interest: market psychology).
It is also true that you have better odds for your career with better education.
I just wasn't sure what the story had to do with your situation 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Decision making is based on a lot of factors, including the available mental models and stereotypes​ for the individual and their sub population. If the model is flawed or not applicable, no matter how good the information is, it's flawed.




IF the model is flawed. Who is qualified to make this judgement in your particular situation?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ok but that's called "dumping crap on your spouse" and playing blame games. Is it what is meant by the phrase "emotional responsibility"? Is it what JLD is doing to her husband when she says that she 'absolutely needs it'? (I didn't think that that's what she meant but perhaps she could clarify).
> 
> I think 'emotional responsibility' needs to first be clearly defined otherwise it sounds like an empty phrase at the moment.
> 
> ...


Could you reference where you are getting the quotes? Which posts?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> There's no irrational bad decisions. There are rationalized bad decisions.
> 
> Lemme give you a bad love influenced example. If you're familiar with Costco you know the tradition of Saturday food samples. We've been going to the local Costco since it opened aeons ago and know the employees well. So one of the old timers working food samples starts telling us about her son who got a full ride to UC Berkeley engineering and is unhappy because his girlfriend is in the local state​ university​ and he wants to transfer here too.
> 
> ...


The information of whether a decision was "good" or "bad" is only available with hindsight so it involves a timeline. Your example presumes that it is possible for one person to make this subjective call without involving the timeline (or in advance) but not for another. 

I also don't really see the relationship between the example above and your wife "choosing CNN over you". If she feels that you don't need or want more than 15 mins of space with her every day (because that's what you have limited it to), then this is all the information she has available to her, to make a "rational" decision  Somebody might think that it would be "irrational" on her part to get up and "fight" your wishes. It would be against all odds!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Could you reference where you are getting the quotes? Which posts?


Sorry I think I confused "emotional responsibility" with "emotional neediness". When you wrote that you have a need to be "emotionally needy" with your husband (but couldn't be with a partner who was emotionally needy with you), I assumed you meant that you would also expect your husband to take responsibility for your emotional needs since that word suddenly came up in the same conversation... If that's not what you meant then it was my misunderstanding. Ignore my last post. It's because I have no idea what was meant by "emotional responsibility". (I guess it means "blaming your partner"?)

It's a new word in my vocabulary!


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

alexm said:


> Nope, not saying that at all.
> 
> What John said would be the ideal, and is how I, and many others, view the topic. But obviously many, many others complicate the whole subject. This thread is proof
> 
> I've always said, *it's such a simple thing, sex*, yet many people attach so many things to it, and it gets murky.


But for your wife it is more than that. This is why it is so complicated. 

The fact you deny that complexity demonstrate how big is the gap between you and your wife.

Have you tried to understand her?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I have a lifetime of irrational decisions behind me. LOL. I was never one to live as I "should", or that would be "most practical" and have done all sorts of things that have gotten me labelled "wild" or just plain "crazy".
> 
> But I was following my heart. And while I most certainly have made mistakes and paid the price, I would never go back to follow all the "shoulds" of rational decision making. It would change my whole life, and who I am to do so.
> 
> While I might be a bit too extreme, it's just human, IMHO, to do things that are simply following one's heart. And yes, as @john117 says, we'll rationalize them all six ways to Sunday. But that's all it is. Rationalizations aren't the same as rational.


That's another thing. Who says that the best decisions are only reached through pure rationalization alone? Being rational is only one tool to use to arrive at a decision. Another tool is intuition. Thankfully, we are able to use both tools. It's about the balance between the two.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I don't know that I would take responsibility for his frustration. I have given him suggestions at times for things I thought could help him, though.
> 
> For example, I suggested a few years ago that he use active listening with his boss. It helped, as she calmed down when she felt he was hearing her.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I could rephrase my question in view of my misunderstanding of the phrase "emotional responsibility":

at what point would your husband appear to you to be "emotionally needy", if he came to complain to you about his difficult work colleague?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Sorry I think I confused "emotional responsibility" with "emotional neediness". When you wrote that you have a need to be "emotionally needy" with your husband (but couldn't be with a partner who was emotionally needy), I assumed you meant that you would also expect your husband to take responsibility for your emotional needs... If that's not what you meant then it was my misunderstanding. Ignore my last post. It's because I have no idea what was meant by "emotional responsibility". (I guess it means "blaming your partner"?)
> 
> It's a new word in my vocabulary!


Did I say "emotional responsibility"? Not saying I did not, but sometimes it helps to see a quote to remember the context.

Like I said, I am transparent with him. And I do expect him to be sensitive to my feelings. It is part of what makes me trust him. And if I did not trust him, we would not be as close as we are. We might not even be married.

He does not necessarily expect the same of me. He is not very sensitive and rarely takes anything personally. Dug definitely takes responsibility for his own feelings.

It all probably comes down to the power balance in your marriage. Some marriages are very equal, like jade's. With Dug and me, he takes more responsibility. In some others, the woman has to take more responsibility if she wants to keep the marriage on an even keel. She is careful how she says things, when she says them, etc., so as to avoid upsetting her more fragile partner.

No right or wrong balance. Just whatever meets the needs of the partners.

And no, Dug does not always meet my needs well enough. But maybe I expect a lot, too. So that is probably part of it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I thought you were grounded?


Yes, I am a naughty boy...I am going to go and repent to her now. Hopefully multiple times 0


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Perhaps I could rephrase my question in view of my misunderstanding of the phrase "emotional responsibility":
> 
> at what point would your husband appear to you to be "emotionally needy", if he came to complain to you about his difficult work colleague?


Nothing in that context comes to mind. I do remember a co-worker of his that used to complain about how hard he worked, how many hours, how much travelling, how stressful the job was, etc. I was surprised, because Dug, though he had more responsibility, never said that. He just got it done. So I know that if Dug does complain, like with that boss, that she must have been really difficult.

But in terms of the things we read here on SIM . . . If he were to complain that I were not passionate enough about sex, and expect me to change somehow to satisfy his requirements, I would find that emotionally needy. To me, if he wants more passion, he needs to inspire it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Now you're just making stuff up --
> 
> Here is who Google hires. Berkeley didn't make this list at all, but a lot of Us with a lot less name value did make the list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google#Employees
> 
> ...


Just an example, my goodness....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> @john117 Do you think you hide behind your intellect sometimes?
> 
> It is okay to just feel pain and admit it. I do think it is true that the quicker we can take responsibility for our pain, the quicker we can come to peace with it. But sometimes we have to just feel it for a while first.


I used to feel pain. Then I cranked up my IQ by 20 points and the pain went away. Who would have thunk?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> IF the model is flawed. Who is qualified to make this judgement in your particular situation?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The results.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Nothing in that context comes to mind. I do remember a co-worker of his that used to complain about how hard he worked, how many hours, how much travelling, how stressful the job was, etc. I was surprised, because Dug, though he had more responsibility, never said that. He just got it done. So I know that if Dug does complain, like with that boss, that she must have been really difficult.
> 
> But in terms of the things we read here on SIM . . . If he were to complain that I were not passionate enough about sex, and expect me to change somehow to satisfy his requirements, I would find that emotionally needy. To me, if he wants more passion, he needs to inspire it.


Repentance is The Best!! :smthumbup::smthumbup:

Ok, so isn't it all about delivery? 
Say he came up to you and said: "Hey lets go and make love like there is no tomorrow" or "why do you never make love to me anymore?". Is one emotionally needy and the other..."inspiring"? 
It's kind of saying the same thing, in different ways.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> And no, Dug does not always meet my needs well enough. But maybe I expect a lot, too. So that is probably part of it.


How do *you* show it when that happens? Do you "inspire" him to make the changes or do you act emotionally needy? :wink2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Repentance is The Best!! :smthumbup::smthumbup:
> 
> Ok, so isn't it all about delivery?
> Say he came up to you and said: "Hey lets go and make love like there is no tomorrow" or "why do you never make love to me anymore?". Is one emotionally needy and the other..."inspiring"?
> It's kind of saying the same thing, in different ways.


I don't think so. The second one is not really that bad, though, especially if it is said in a kindly, genuinely caring and concerned for her way. Not like if he were to say, "You are not making love the way you are supposed to. Start doing it right or I will find someone who will." There are stories here like that.

But the first one is good, reflects confidence in himself. What woman would not be enthusiastic about a confident man?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> How do *you* show it when that happens? Do you "inspire" him to make the changes or do you act emotionally needy? :wink2:


 I get mad. I do not make any efforts to hide it, either.

I am not responsible for inspiration here.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> How do *you* show it when that happens? Do you "inspire" him to make the changes or do you act emotionally needy? :wink2:


She screams at me.

In all fairness, I am hard hearing. I have a pretty thick head.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I get mad. I do not make any efforts to hide it, either.
> 
> I am not responsible for inspiration here.


Don't get mad.
Get even.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Don't get mad.
> Get even.


It does not work, Andy. Dug is not vulnerable to manipulation, and probably would not even notice if I tried. Or he would just laugh and beat me at my own game.

I can't even stay away from sex for long because it is a chance to be sure to get his attention.

Sounds pathetic, when I write it out like this.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> She screams at me.
> 
> In all fairness, I am hard hearing. I have a pretty thick head.


Haha, *that's* compatibility right there.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I don't think so. The second one is not really that bad, though, especially if it is said in a kindly, genuinely caring and concerned for her way. Not like if he were to say, "You are not making love the way you are supposed to. Start doing it right or I will find someone who will."


Isn't it the "No More Mr Nice Guy" strategy that's always recommended around here?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Isn't it the "No More Mr Nice Guy" strategy that's always recommended around here?


I sure hope not. 

And be careful of the recommendations you accept around here. The author of that book, iirc, once ran crying to the bathroom because his wife said a few harsh words to him. Does that sound like a confident man to you, someone you would like to emulate?

Then again, a woman a few months ago said she would love to have her husband act like that. So maybe it works fine for some.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I sure hope not.
> 
> And be careful of the recommendations you accept around here. The author of that book, iirc, once ran crying to the bathroom because his wife said a few harsh words to him. Does that sound like a confident man to you, someone you would like to emulate?


Depends what he ran to the bathroom for 

Maybe his wife wrote the book for him to read it and learn a few things?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> She screams at me.
> 
> In all fairness, I am hard hearing. I have a pretty thick head.


Wow, did she exhibit this infantile behaviour before marriage?

It would take a lot to compensate for that crap


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Depends what he ran to the bathroom for
> 
> Maybe his wife wrote the book for him to read it and learn a few things?


Lol. Not sure if he is still married to the same gal.

I would recommend _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People_, myself.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

kag123 said:


> I am LD and therefore my natural arousal level is low. I WISH it were higher. If there were a female Viagra, I'd be taking it! I've experienced spells of high arousal periodically and when that happens, it doesn't take anything for me to be fully "engaged" and I don't even care what else is going on in our marriage at that moment. We could be in the middle of a huge fight and I'd be hitting the pause button to get in bed with him because my natural arousal level is high and I feel like I NEED it.


A bit behind here since this thread is flying. This post in particular, I think if you ask many people where there is a mismatch, they probably do wish (assuming they are in a happy relationship otherwise) their drive was more in line with the other person. So for an LD person, they may wish their drive was higher (similar to you). For an HD person, they may wish their drive was lower (i am sure some in this thread can relate to). Ideally, both are able to communicate and find a middle ground that works for each. Some may be selfish and may only care about their needs. or even use their drive as a bargaining chip (i.e. if you did xyz for me then my drive might better match with yours, which can create a convenient moving target). Others, their drive is what it is, and it isn't going to change


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Just an example, my goodness....


Obviously. But you seem to be completely missing the wider point. 

c'mon john, you're almost halfway there. :wink2:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Obviously. But you seem to be completely missing the wider point.
> 
> c'mon john, you're almost halfway there. :wink2:


The wider point is that better schools help...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> It does not work, Andy. Dug is not vulnerable to manipulation, and probably would not even notice if I tried. Or he would just laugh and beat me at my own game.
> 
> I can't even stay away from sex for long because it is a chance to be sure to get his attention.
> 
> Sounds pathetic, when I write it out like this.


I hate to say it, but the way you describe your relationship is actually classic textbook accounts of how distance increases passion. Your husband remains aloof, away often, focused on his own thing, mostly distant, "hard of hearing" and "thick-headed." You are constantly seeking his attention, willing to do whatever to get it.

Yes, connection is extremely important to you. You work so hard for it, maybe it's difficult for you to imagine a situation where you needn't work so hard?

I'm betting real money that you could totally reverse your dynamic, to bathe in that constant stream of love, if only you would take some time to realize your own strength. No screaming needed.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

LOL, @john117. Okay, you got me, seems I misread the "top feeder schools to Google" list. Ooopsie. I thought "Cal" was CalTech, not Berkeley. 

And yes, if your dream is to work at Google, then I guess you should call up your young dude friend and tell him to get his ass to Stanford. 

But I hear Google is actually a crappy place to work, and although they keep trying to attract "top talent" that top talent gets bored out of their minds or sick of playing the Google identity game, and move on to different pastures.

Of course, I can't argue that name recognition may carry some advantages, particularly if you are a social climber. Doesn't mean one is being less "irrational" by social climbing or that the "model" that tells you to social climb is somehow less faulty than a model that tells you to pursue what you really want, rather than what other people think you should do to increase your probabilities of "getting ahead". 

You do know, of course, that a lot of people do all the "right" things, and go to all the "right" places, and pursue the "right" careers that are "better" and end up completely unhappy, unfulfilled, and absolutely regret living their lives by probabilities and shoulds. 

Clearly YMMV.

But getting back to Google, you do of course realize that there are thousands and thousands of employees there, and this particular list is but a teeny fraction of it. Are we sure that these people also have the best positions? Or are they just the largest numbers?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> A bit behind here since this thread is flying. This post in particular, I think if you ask many people where there is a mismatch, they probably do wish (assuming they are in a happy relationship otherwise) their drive was more in line with the other person. So for an LD person, they may wish their drive was higher (similar to you). For an HD person, they may wish their drive was lower (i am sure some in this thread can relate to). Ideally, both are able to communicate and find a middle ground that works for each. Some may be selfish and may only care about their needs. or even use their drive as a bargaining chip (i.e. if you did xyz for me then my drive might better match with yours, which can create a convenient moving target). Others, their drive is what it is, and it isn't going to change


I'm still reading and lurking here...

At the risk of TMI: We've done the deed the last two nights. The first night was because I genuinely wanted it. It was good. 

The second night, was because I felt like night #1 wasn't good enough. We both were dead tired and lasted maybe 10 minutes, seriously, then fell asleep. I sometimes feel guilty when that happens, like I rushed through something that was important to him. So I initiated the second night again even though from a pure "drive" spontaneous desire standpoint, I had no urge to do that. I said in a previous reply that my O is very important to my H. We had more time on night #2 though so I figured I'd give it a shot. 

Reading the post from wild jade describing her husbands ED - I really think I have the female equivalent. Word for word, what her husband goes through, I go through trying to get that elusive O. So night #2 felt very out of synch and just not good to me - but I think he enjoyed it. I went to bed feeling a heavy sense of defeat. I don't know why, really. I knew what was going to happen before I began anything with him. I guess I sometimes do that thing where you say "this time will be different". Even though you know that's just setting yourself up for disappointment! 

I did not say a THING to him about it - and I did still O (it took me 45 minutes!!) - and I was very attentive to him and enthusiastic the whole time. Really! The moment our heads hit the pillow he says "Sorry I was no good for you." And then it's a negative emotion to end the night because he is wallowing in self pity and so am I. Like I said - I said nothing, and I didn't even DO anything to make it seem like I was not happy. He still goes with the self inflicted knife wound though. 

I think some of the responses I got here when I said "I don't initiate when I know I'm not going to O" (responses seemed to be: how could you possibly know that) made me test my own theory. Still the same! If I'm not revving to go before we begin, it's just not going to be good for me. Technically I can O, but it requires the Olympics to get there - just like wild jade described. And it has zero to do with HIM. I just can't get that brain chemistry to work for some reason. Part of it is due to the meds that I take - but that really just exacerbates my baseline, and it was ALWAYS hard for me to O.

From a LD perspective it is really really HARD to enter into sex with your spouse when it's like playing with a loaded gun. Someone else said (alexm?) that sex should be light hearted and fun and a natural occurrence. And it seems like when you are dating that happens easily. But somewhere along the line sex became riddled with emotional minefields and weighed down with so much expectation. At least in MY marriage. It's a game that I frankly don't know how to win. Does anyone enjoy playing a game that they almost never win? 

I often feel that my H puts all of his emotional baggage about our marriage into sex and sex becomes either a salve that calms him or an irritant, bringing those bad emotions to the forefront...largely dependent upon on how often we do it, and what the chemistry is like during each act. The stakes feel high to make sure that every encounter we have is excellent, and that's a really stressful position for me to be in. Unless I'm really in NEED of that O for myself and coming to him to service that need, it's hard for me to muster up the energy to even start anything with him because I often feel it is stressful and high stakes. If it goes badly, the results are felt for at least the full next day. 

He's happy when I'm happy. And if I'm not 100% happy, he immediately blames himself, even if it has nothing to do with him. When he blames himself, that puts him in a funk that can last for quite a long time. 

I should mention here that the "funk" isn't normally verbal. My H and I are connected to each other's minds and so in tune with each other that we really do have some telepathy going on. I often feel his emotions even if he doesn't not tell them to me, and he does the same with me. Maybe that sounds nuts. But its true. Sometimes it's good- but sometimes it's bad to be that way, such as when he gets into my head when I'm in a negative space, having a bad day, and takes responsibility for it even when it has nothing to do with him. One thing's for certain, I don't know if I could break our mind-meld if I wanted to, but it sure does complicate things!



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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I hate to say it, but the way you describe your relationship is actually classic textbook accounts of how distance increases passion. Your husband remains aloof, away often, focused on his own thing, mostly distant, "hard of hearing" and "thick-headed." You are constantly seeking his attention, willing to do whatever to get it.
> 
> Yes, connection is extremely important to you. You work so hard for it, maybe it's difficult for you to imagine a situation where you needn't work so hard?
> 
> I'm betting real money that you could totally reverse your dynamic, to bathe in that constant stream of love, if only you would take some time to realize your own strength. No screaming needed.


We lived together for 14 years, jade. There was no physical distance.

Dug is just not needy. He is very loving and giving, but not naturally attentive or affectionate. Think _The Absentminded Professor._ He does not think or feel the same way I do, so does not realize how intense my need for connection and support is.

If he did any of this on purpose, as some manipulation tactic to keep me panting after him, I would be furious and we never would have lasted. I think manipulation, especially of someone emotionally vulnerable and dependent on you, is incredibly weak and exploitative.

A lot of men seem to feel threatened by me. I think it has always been this way. The kind of men that are more sensitive and expressive would probably be taken aback by my directness. So it is better for me to be with someone like Dug, who makes me want to pull my hair out at times, than someone who would get mad at me for things I would have no idea were offending him. I would feel like a failure with someone like that, and it would not last long.

MEM has told me many times that I am strong, and Dug, too. I have not usually seen myself this way, probably because I am very sensitive and easily hurt. But I do try to be as honest as possible with myself, even when it is painful. I think that is a kind of strength.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I used to feel pain. Then I cranked up my IQ by 20 points and the pain went away. Who would have thunk?


There is pain all over your posts about your wife. That is what drives your resentment.

You want her to take responsibility for the marriage and your feelings. She can't, john. She is not capable of that kind of leadership. Her mental health condition is evidence of that.

She could respond to your initiative, though. I think she would respond very well to your acknowledging the pain and fear you caused her 7 years ago the morning you left those divorce papers on the breakfast table.

If you first acknowledged her pain, she might be able to acknowledge yours.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@kag123 My husband too takes a variety of pills. I think there's a lot of meds that interfere with good sexual function. Don't know what can be done about that, but certainly, don't be beating yourself up over it. As for your husband... when my husband first started getting this issue, I took it personally too. It took me a while to realize that it wasn't my fault. Hopefully he will too (your husband, that is). 

@jld I would never suggest that your husband was doing this on purpose or that you didn't marry the right man, and I'm sure he's quite wonderful. I was only suggesting that you actually could probably alter your dynamic if you were so inclined simply by recognizing your own strength. Lots of men are intimidated by a strong woman, and so I get why you really need to be with a strong man. Not saying otherwise. Just suggesting that he is probably also strong enough to do a bit more of the chasing. :wink2: But first, you'd need to actually admit to your own strength and the incredible value of it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> There is pain all over your posts about your wife. That is what drives your resentment.
> 
> You want her to take responsibility for the marriage and your feelings. She can't, john. She is not capable of that kind of leadership. Her mental health condition is evidence of that.
> 
> ...


At the risk of sounding MEM-cryptic, it all starts by her acknowledging her pain. That ain't happening.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> @kag123 My husband too takes a variety of pills. I think there's a lot of meds that interfere with good sexual function. Don't know what can be done about that, but certainly, don't be beating yourself up over it. As for your husband... when my husband first started getting this issue, I took it personally too. It took me a while to realize that it wasn't my fault. Hopefully he will too (your husband, that is).
> 
> @jld I would never suggest that your husband was doing this on purpose or that you didn't marry the right man, and I'm sure he's quite wonderful. I was only suggesting that you actually could probably alter your dynamic if you were so inclined simply by recognizing your own strength. Lots of men are intimidated by a strong woman, and so I get why you really need to be with a strong man. Not saying otherwise. Just suggesting that he is probably also strong enough to do a bit more of the chasing. :wink2: But first, you'd need to actually admit to your own strength and the incredible value of it.


Any suggestions as to how to do this?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> At the risk of sounding MEM-cryptic, it all starts by her acknowledging her pain. That ain't happening.


You could help. 

I do not waste time being cryptic.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> At the risk of sounding MEM-cryptic, it all starts by her acknowledging her pain. That ain't happening.




She might be showing it to you in ways you may not understand/notice it? (What's her mental condition?)

(It's a good point you are making, if it is true. Still, I suggest to stop indulging in these tests and try to break the cycle of self inflicted misery.)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> @kag123 My husband too takes a variety of pills. I think there's a lot of meds that interfere with good sexual function. Don't know what can be done about that, but certainly, don't be beating yourself up over it. As for your husband... when my husband first started getting this issue, I took it personally too. It took me a while to realize that it wasn't my fault. Hopefully he will too (your husband, that is).
> 
> @jld I would never suggest that your husband was doing this on purpose or that you didn't marry the right man, and I'm sure he's quite wonderful. I was only suggesting that you actually could probably alter your dynamic if you were so inclined simply by recognizing your own strength. Lots of men are intimidated by a strong woman, and so I get why you really need to be with a strong man. Not saying otherwise. Just suggesting that he is probably also strong enough to do a bit more of the chasing. :wink2: But first, you'd need to actually admit to your own strength and the incredible value of it.




Not gonna work while he's also reading the thread and sees through the tactics 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> LOL, @john117. Okay, you got me, seems I misread the "top feeder schools to Google" list. Ooopsie. I thought "Cal" was CalTech, not Berkeley.
> 
> And yes, if your dream is to work at Google, then I guess you should call up your young dude friend and tell him to get his ass to Stanford.
> 
> ...




I think he's talking about probabilities: better education= better odds of getting good jobs/having good life.

There's actually a deeper philosophical point that I keep thinking about re my kids.
Spending about 80k on my kids' private education per year, just so they hopefully end up somewhere high-ish on the corporate ladder, having some stressful 9-5 job at a prestigious firm: is this ensuring their happiness? And it's only best case scenario. Worst case scenario: they end up lazy brats with a wasted education.
Nothing is a guarantee. But the 'wider point for me': what is the end goal of all of this if they are going to be miserable anyway?

There is also a total disproportion of where the highest paid jobs are: like finance (80% of the jobs in finance are a total waste of resources and don't create a net benefit for the society IMO) or running a larger company (a monkey could do it just as well).

Yesterday, one of my kids' cousins accidentally ate a biscuit that contained hazelnuts. He had a severe allergic reaction, his throat closed up. If it wasn't for the ambulance which showed within 5 mins, he might have died. These people (ambulance) hardly get paid anything compared to some of the jobs that I'm ranting about.
I don't understand this disproportion or how it can be changed. I'm not saying there shouldn't be those jobs, but I'm appalled how wide the gap is.
Sorry about the rant.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> I'm still reading and lurking here...
> 
> At the risk of TMI: We've done the deed the last two nights. The first night was because I genuinely wanted it. It was good.
> 
> ...




I know what you mean about the mind-meld. My wife told me yesterday about one issue that happened a year or two ago (but it's now resolved itself). I was gobsmacked why she hasn't told me about it earlier, or when it happened. She said that it's because I often get anxious and try to fix anything she tells me ('take responsibility'?). Sometimes it's helpful just to listen. It seems I can't just do the latter. 
It must be because of the roles: the husband often feels responsible for the family = He needs to be the 'fixer'. I guess it's why your husband takes responsibility for your orgasms (or the difficulties of reaching them). You then feel tons of pressure and find it perhaps even harder to orgasm the next time because of this expectation.
He needs to learn to understand that it is not always up to him, how you feel. And that it does not help you break away and 'lose yourself' in sex if you are put in the spot like that.
Easier said than done. I'm the same as your husband, when it comes to assessing the quality of my wife's orgasms and feeling responsible if they are not 100%.
A lot of women enjoy the sensations from PIV often as much as the orgasm itself: is it not something your husband could live with, if you told him that?



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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> Okay, maybe I misunderstood, too. I thought he said he wanted genuine spontaneity with her, not a schedule.


I'd like to know, with her being responsive desire and all, that other days are 'on the table', so to speak.

Instead of the current complete shut-down for 6.75 of 7 days.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> His objection seemed to be that she has near total control over their sex life. Full stop.
> 
> Which is basically true. She controls frequency and schedule.
> 
> ...





jld said:


> I agree it sounded manipulative. And that means it is likely to hurt him as well as her.
> 
> How about just asking her the bolded, Alex, as MEM suggests?




I have asked. Unsure of why you assume I haven't.

The answer, as you can imagine, was "I don't" and myriad of excuses, legit or otherwise (too tired, too much to do, etc.)

The gist of it being that weekends are the only 'free' time for this sort of thing in her mind, therefore it's not about control.

It's fair enough, if taken at face value - which I did for several years - but at some point, one is apt to think "hey, wait a second here".

In terms of being manipulative, I take issue with that. After all, it is I who is being manipulated, and no amount of talk and discussion has made a dent.

For years here on TAM, I've been told to shut up and take action. I finally do, and I'm told it's manipulative and I should talk.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Throughout the thread, I was trying to (gently) slip in another possibility: that *she doesn't know that she is doing it* or that if she *is* doing it, doesn't know to what extent it affect's Alexm or that it matters at all to him. *Because they have sex every week on the same day doesn't have to mean it is somebody's grand master plan!*
> 
> It would be interesting to hear from Mrs Alexm though I guess impossible...
> 
> ...


Yeah, this. I genuinely don't think she's doing it on purpose - never have. It's all very subconscious, and it usually is in these situations. It's not a scheme of hers to limit sex to one day of the week, despite it being her assumed "max".

There's no argument that Saturday night IS the best time for it, and really the only point during the week where she's relaxed and not as tired.

But for me, it's this narrow viewpoint of hers that this is the only time she's _able_ to set aside for my needs. It makes it seem as though it's just another thing that has to be done - despite her actually enjoying it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I have asked. Unsure of why you assume I haven't.
> 
> The answer, as you can imagine, was "I don't" and myriad of excuses, legit or otherwise (too tired, too much to do, etc.)
> 
> ...


So the question is then: why don't you *believe* her when she says it's not about control for her?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Yeah, this. I genuinely don't think she's doing it on purpose - never have. It's all very subconscious, and it usually is in these situations. It's not a scheme of hers to limit sex to one day of the week, despite it being her assumed "max".
> 
> There's no argument that Saturday night IS the best time for it, and really the only point during the week where she's relaxed and not as tired.
> 
> But for me, it's this narrow viewpoint of hers that this is the only time she's _able_ to set aside for my needs. It makes it seem as though it's just another thing that has to be done - despite her actually enjoying it.


But that's totally OK? If you both were on holiday or she wasn't working, there is no question that you could be having sex at any day of the week.
Why do you take it so personally?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Yeah, this. I genuinely don't think she's doing it on purpose - never have. It's all very subconscious, and it usually is in these situations. It's not a scheme of hers to limit sex to one day of the week, despite it being her assumed "max".
> 
> *There's no argument that Saturday night IS the best time for it, and really the only point during the week where she's relaxed and not as tired.*
> 
> But for me, it's this narrow viewpoint of hers that this is the only time she's _able_ to set aside for my needs. It makes it seem as though it's just another thing that has to be done - despite her actually enjoying it.


It sounds like it is true, then.

Alex, how about just enjoying it, and appreciating it, and not frustrating yourself by asking for more?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

The gremlins in our minds...I could write a book about it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think there is a lot of truth to this. It seems to set off a "fight or flight" response in some women when they perceive that their partner is reaching out with an emotional need--especially if they perceive that their partner might be asking them to work on something.
> 
> I think it can come from fear of not being "good enough," or it can be that the woman is unsure how deep her partner's emotional needs run and she is being pre emptive about shutting down potential "neediness." It can also be a fear of a power shift that leads to the inability to get her own needs met.
> 
> Whatever the cause, that icky feeling leads to a wall being thrown up. I think if more women would peek behind the wall, they'd see that their man's needs usually are not that threatening or complex or scary after all. But getting past that initial "fight or flight" response, as I said, takes some intentional work.


I think you may have just described my wife, as well as how she views things when I talk with her about them.

She has never bluntly called me "needy", but there have been times over the years where I'm sure this is what she's thinking.

It's all very relative, and always in the eye of the beholder. So we hit this area where, to her, I am being needy. To me, I am simply requiring something perfectly normal from her. Neither of us are wrong.

What I find is that, with personalities like hers, I'm often damned if I do, damned if I don't.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I have asked. Unsure of why you assume I haven't.
> 
> The answer, as you can imagine, was "I don't" and myriad of excuses, legit or otherwise (too tired, too much to do, etc.)
> 
> ...


It does not sound like that is true, Alex, at least from her perspective. And she seems to have practical reasons for feeling that way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I think you may have just described my wife, as well as how she views things when I talk with her about them.
> 
> *She has never bluntly called me "needy", but there have been times over the years where I'm sure this is what she's thinking.*
> 
> ...


What are the things that would make her think that?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> The gremlins in our minds...I could write a book about it.


Could be an interesting thread . . .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But that's totally OK? If you both were on holiday or she wasn't working, there is no question that you could be having sex at any day of the week.
> Why do you take it so personally?


It must be stressful to work full-time and have children. I know plenty of women do it, but to me it looks stressful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I think you may have just described my wife, as well as how she views things when I talk with her about them.
> 
> She has never bluntly called me "needy", but there have been times over the years where I'm sure this is what she's thinking.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to comment on the possible difference between the sexes here, just because I find it interesting. 

While I would find neediness in a man a turn off, my husband does not seem to mind my neediness at all. I think it is because he does not rely on me to support him, but finds it normal that I would need his support.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> So the question is then: why don't you *believe* her when she says it's not about control for her?


Do you expect her to say it's all about control?

Sigh sigh sigh...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Not gonna work while he's also reading the thread and sees through the tactics
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not recommending "tactics". I'm suggesting she find her center.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

FrenchFry said:


> I keep on sympathizing with your wife without actually knowing if we are at all alike. As far as being built differently, the great part of sex that keeps me coming back isn't the anticipation. It's the physical part, the orgasms that actually drive me to a higher emotional state. Which I don't want all the time, can be fairly torturous if I'm not ready for it and if I'm not feeling the physical part, puts me in a chore-like position.
> 
> When we have friction in my marriage is because a) I can't have the passionate spontaneous sex without "scheduling" it to clear all my mental debris (not sponteneous) and b) he doesn't accept even the nicest duty sex, which I consider a blessing. However, the friction is lessened by having a lot of non-sexual physical contact and having a mental and/or emotional connection that includes a lot of very blunt discourse and a lot of forgiveness for elevated emotional hostility if it leads to a solution.
> 
> ...


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

jld said:


> Just wanted to comment on the possible difference between the sexes here, just because I find it interesting.
> 
> While I would find neediness in a man a turn off, my husband does not seem to mind my neediness at all. I think it is because he does not rely on me to support him, but finds it normal that I would need his support.


I think there's a lot of truth in this. It's kind of a double standard. The man isn't supposed to be needy, it's a huge turn off for women. But if the wife is being needy, the man sure as **** had better step up and take care of business, or else he isn't getting laid, among other things. And you can bet that her sister and her friends know about it too, and that they've been going over hypothetical situations about what would happen if she were to get a divorce or have an affair.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Worth mentioning that, AFAIK anyway, there's nothing truly negative she's keeping inside (abuse, etc.) I may very well be wrong, but from what I've seen, nothing points to anything like that. Her negative experiences are typical, IMO, and it's just that she doesn't like to talk about things. She's just not one to share her feelings with anyone, to her detriment. Knowing her immediate family as well as I do, I can see where it comes from.


My wife is the same, most of the time. But on the rare occasions that I managed to draw her out and openly talk to me about things, it's like a waterfall. Plus it puts a lot of things in my mind to rest.
Make an effort getting her to talk/be open with you. It's worth it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

jld said:


> It must be stressful to work full-time and have children. I know plenty of women do it, but to me it looks stressful.


I think that it is only stressful if you don't have a supportive partner. It would be stressful for either a male or female.

My wife wrote the above response for you jld.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I am about 8 pages behind at the moment, so I have some catching up to do!

In the meantime - update:

Sex Friday night (wohoo?!) and nada Saturday (though I did try).

Not a typical week, however, so not sure if this fits in with the sample. Long weekend, obviously (Friday off) and kids gone for a couple of days. Thursday became our Friday, and Friday became our Saturday, in a manner of speaking. And Sunday (Easter) was ridiculously busy, which, in essence, made Saturday our Sunday (are you following? lol!)

Great sex, IMO. She joined me in the shower, where nothing sexual occurred, I might add. She got out before I did, and I found her laying in bed naked (her way of initiating  )

So two weeks in a row, I didn't have to initiate in any way. Neither did she, really, but in her own way she did (this week) - which is absolutely fine. Last week it seemed forced on her part, like make-up for Saturday night.

I did feel much better about this week than last (and previous weeks), however, so that's good. This was far more natural and not forced. We thoroughly enjoyed ourselves (especially her, and I'll spare you the details!)


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> I'd like to know, with her being responsive desire and all, that other days are 'on the table', so to speak.
> 
> Instead of the current complete shut-down for 6.75 of 7 days.


IDK, doesn't really sound like responsive desire if she shuts herself down all other times except the one time.

When you said you tried on Saturday but nada, can you clarify this (i.e. how were you shut down)?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I am about 8 pages behind at the moment, so I have some catching up to do!
> 
> In the meantime - update:
> 
> ...


And your problem was....? :wink2::smthumbup:

Think 'preventative' now: how to avoid getting yourself into the mind rot until the next time.
Think you both need to be more open with each other or talk, before assuming stuff. (note for me too...)


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Any suggestions as to how to do this?


It's difficult because I don't have a lot to work with. But you're clearly persistent. You seem to be rather fearless in wading into emotional drama, even when it seems to be your own neck you're putting on the line. That alone takes amazing strength. Most people dodge hurt wherever and whenever you can. To walk right into it so that you can learn and grow, that alone takes a great deal of strength.

What else do you do that requires great strength? Instead of brushing that question off and calling yourself "needy" or a "baby", or taking what you do for granted, try listing it, appreciating it. Instead of wondering why your husband loves you, take a moment and acknowledge some of those reasons. When you are giving your husband all the responsibility and power, remember that it is a gift from you, and not his right or his obligation as a man.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> IDK, doesn't really sound like responsive desire if she shuts herself down all other times except the one time.
> 
> When you said you tried on Saturday but nada, can you clarify this (i.e. how were you shut down)?


Yes, what I was trying to say earlier. Responsive desire ... responds. This sure sounds like something else to me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Yes, what I was trying to say earlier. Responsive desire ... responds. This sure sounds like something else to me.


"Responsive desire" doesn't mean the person needs to respond every single time you pull at them. It's not a black & white thing and needs to be taken as an average.

Though to be fair, I find all these terms pretty pointless.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> How is wanting to withhold sex from your wife going to facilitate sharing sex with her?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not withholding. I will not ever withhold.

What I am not doing is chasing or expecting, or waiting for it - there's a difference.

The way it is now, and has been for years, is that there is a certain day/time that is acceptable for sex - no other day or time. It's not just sex that's off the table, it's everything else that goes with it.

So for years now, this one day and time is when I've been expected to initiate sex. We go to bed with the expectation, on both our parts, that sex will happen. I am expected to 'make a move' - not her.

Bell rings, dog comes running. That's a base way of putting it, but it's apt and not untrue.

All that said, in the two weekends since I made this decision, we have had sex on a Sunday and on a Friday.

Sunday was because I didn't follow through with my usual Saturday expectation, but instead engaged in non-sexual intimacy. I withheld NOTHING. She EXPECTED me to want to have sex, but instead of 'sexing her up', I gave her non-sexual intimacy. If anything, I gave her more than she was used to. Sunday morning, I came back to bed after puttering around, and did the SAME THING - non-sexual intimacy. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and she did, too. But it also confused her, as she asked me point-blank, once she got out of bed "why did you come back to bed?", in a very very slightly accusatory manner. I answered her, and then she basically anger-****ed me (well, not really, but she was determined...). It was almost almost almost a "I'll show him" kind of thing, but that could very well have been my somewhat jaded mindset, too. Don't know.

This weekend, our days were genuinely switched up. Friday really did become our Saturday, and so on. No complaints whatsoever. But again, I did not initiate, expect, or even hope for sex.

SO FAR, I am happy with what's happened, small sample size or not. I think I'm on the right track (or at least not on the wrong one, and definitely not on the SAME one... so that's good.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

alexm said:


> So two weeks in a row, I didn't have to initiate in any way.


Is this a significant departure from the norm, or is it a variation of the same?

Either way do you know why it has changed?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> "Responsive desire" doesn't mean the person needs to respond every single time you pull at them. It's not a black & white thing and needs to be taken as an average.
> 
> Though to be fair, I find all these terms pretty pointless.


Agreed. Not sure of the value of the terms either. 

But by the sounds of it, alexm's wife hardly ever responds. It's not just on occasion. And she initiates, or at least makes her willingness to have sex (desire?) known.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

wild jade said:


> Yes, what I was trying to say earlier. Responsive desire ... responds. This sure sounds like something else to me.


Agreed. I would classify my W as "responsive desire", which at least for me doesn't really line up with Alex's W in terms of shutting herself down and/or rejecting him.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Duguesclin said:


> But for your wife it is more than that. This is why it is so complicated.
> 
> The fact you deny that complexity demonstrate how big is the gap between you and your wife.
> 
> *Have you tried to understand her?*


^ Are you serious with that? 

In any case, I actually think she over-simplifies it, IMO. It is very likely me who is complicating it, despite my insistence that it shouldn't be so. She just doesn't think about it, which is quite the opposite of making it complicated.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I'm not recommending "tactics". I'm suggesting she find her center.


The more I could do that, surely the less needy I would feel.

And it is clearly not a "tactic." I do not feel comfortable hiding anything from my husband. I think the more transparent we can be in our marriages, the easier it is to see the issues and resolve them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> I think there's a lot of truth in this. It's kind of a double standard. The man isn't supposed to be needy, it's a huge turn off for women. But if the wife is being needy, the man sure as **** had better step up and take care of business, or else he isn't getting laid, among other things. And you can bet that her sister and her friends know about it too, and that they've been going over hypothetical situations about what would happen if she were to get a divorce or have an affair.




Yes, women talk. About everything.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Personal said:


> I think that it is only stressful if you don't have a supportive partner. It would be stressful for either a male or female.
> 
> My wife wrote the above response for you jld.


I worked full time before we had kids, and was absolutely wiped out every Friday night. And that was with a supportive partner.

I think some of us are just not high energy types.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> It's difficult because I don't have a lot to work with. But you're clearly persistent. You seem to be rather fearless in wading into emotional drama, even when it seems to be your own neck you're putting on the line. That alone takes amazing strength. Most people dodge hurt wherever and whenever you can. To walk right into it so that you can learn and grow, that alone takes a great deal of strength.
> 
> What else do you do that requires great strength? Instead of brushing that question off and calling yourself "needy" or a "baby", or taking what you do for granted, try listing it, appreciating it. Instead of wondering why your husband loves you, take a moment and acknowledge some of those reasons. When you are giving your husband all the responsibility and power, remember that it is a gift from you, and not his right or his obligation as a man.


Wow, very powerful post, jade. Sincere thanks.

Going to take some time and really think about this. May even start a separate thread on it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes, women talk. About everything.


My wife apparently doesn't. I actually asked her many times about it, when she tells me pretty personal stories about some of her mum friends, it seemed logical that she would also share hers. But apparently never any specifics involved or revealing anything that is personal. 

I have no reason not to believe her. (Not that i would mind if she did). She is a much more private person than me and I admire that.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Could be an interesting thread . . .


No, I am trying to reduce posting on TAM. I *must* stop posting so much as I am neglecting other things. It has been a bit diarrhoea -like, from my part. 
I worry it's becoming an addiction. Is there an addiction section on TAM I can post to sort out this problem? 
Hold on...that wouldn't work :frown2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> My wife apparently doesn't. I actually asked her many times about it, when she tells me pretty personal stories about some of her mum friends, it seemed logical that she would also share hers. But apparently never any specifics involved or revealing anything that is personal.
> 
> I have no reason not to believe her. (Not that i would mind if she did). She is a much more private person than me and I admire that.


That's true. Some women are very private. 

But I have six older sisters, and believe me, over the years we have talked about everything!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> No, I am trying to reduce posting on TAM. I *must* stop posting so much as I am neglecting other things. It has been a bit diarrhoea -like, from my part.
> I worry it's becoming an addiction. Is there an addiction section on TAM I can post to sort out this problem?
> Hold on...that wouldn't work :frown2:


Yes, I am addicted, too. Have not found a solution, 3 years in.

What amazes me is that if I left tomorrow, and could actually stay away, my husband would be thrilled, and never return. I think that is a big difference between thinkers and feelers.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I am not withholding. I will not ever withhold.
> 
> What I am not doing is chasing or expecting, or waiting for it - there's a difference.
> 
> ...


For an outside observer (like myself), it's staring me in the face but I am hesitant to keep repeating it because I could still be missing something plus it only needs to be said once: *you are attaching hidden meanings to the events as they unfold, with a negative skew.*


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes, I am addicted, too. Have not found a solution, 3 years in.
> .


I might have to get myself banned. Where is that faith thread again? :surprise:
Joking. To beat an addiction it has to come from within. (I think?.)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I might have to get myself banned. Where is that faith thread again? :surprise:
> Joking. To beat an addiction it has to come from within. (I think?.)


I hope you don't leave. You are a valuable contributor here. You bring up good points that make us think.

Could your wife join, too? It is always good to have both partners in a couple here. And I bet she would be a fantastic contributor!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> For an outside observer (like myself), it's staring me in the face but I am hesitant to keep repeating it because I could still be missing something plus it only needs to be said once: *you are attaching hidden meanings to the events as they unfold, with a negative skew.*


I think a lot of us do this, especially if we are sensitive, and have felt hurt by someone in the past. It is only natural to assign negative intentions on their part, but that does not make them true. And believing false things will not help us.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I hope you don't leave. You are a valuable contributor here. You bring up good points that make us think.
> 
> Could your wife join, too? It is always good to have both partners in a couple here. And I bet she would be a fantastic contributor!


That's not her personality, I don't think. Plus she is "running" our 3 kids 24/7 and I am supposed to have a demanding career...So I will reduce posting.
But promise won't go away completely :wink2:

Do tag me if there's something I can help with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That's not her personality, I don't think. Plus she is "running" our 3 kids 24/7 and I am supposed to have a demanding career...So I will reduce posting.
> But promise won't go away completely :wink2:
> 
> Do tag me if there's something I can help with.


That's really nice. It is always sad to see valuable contributors just leave completely. It is like losing a part of the TAM family.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Just be careful it's not going to be perceived as "rape" :|


WTH? Taking clothes off and hopping into bed with your wife needs a warning so it's not perceived as rape? Wow.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Capster said:


> WTH? Taking clothes off and hopping into bed with your wife needs a warning so it's not perceived as rape? Wow.


It was a "poke" at "political correctness" and at the "macho" way, in which this was mentioned back then (IIRC). But since you mention it: yes, you generally do need some form of consent. "Even" if you are married. It doesn't need to be verbal. But it would be funny if that was always the absolute minimum requirement 
I bet this is how every British husband initiates (in a posh voice): "My Darling wife, may I commence indecorous intercourse with you shortly"
:nerd:


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> I think you may have just described my wife, as well as how she views things when I talk with her about them.
> 
> She has never bluntly called me "needy", but there have been times over the years where I'm sure this is what she's thinking.
> 
> ...


I think the perception of "neediness" does trigger some women more than others, and also that some women will "weaponize" that perception. (I was/am such a person. Not proud of it, and I work on it with my husband's understanding and help.) You seem to be able to remain fairly steady-state about you needs, but what concerns me (and TBH I jumped back onto TAM for this thread specifically) is that I sense that your frustration might be nearing the point where it turns into resentment. Much harder to come back from resentment than from frustration. My husband and I lost a good decade of our almost 30 years together to resentment (mine.) By "lost" I mean in physical and, worse, emotional intimacy. 

I see it here all the time--men who have difficulty standing by their needs unapologetically for a variety of reasons. And I've done a lot of thinking about it, and a lot of talking to men and women in long term relationships about it. Something I'm beginning to understand is that men who tend to neglect themselves in their relationships tend to be "givers" in general, and tend to also put themselves and their needs/wants last in other areas of their lives, too. Long story short, men like this--men who step up and care for others first--DO need a soft place to land at home, with the ONE person they trust to carry that load when they want to lay it down, just for a little bit. They DO want that deep intimacy with their wives. They DO need a place to refuel. It's got nothing to do with them being needy with their wives, it has to do with how much the GIVE of themselves on a day to day basis in ALL areas of their lives. It's the exactly opposite of needy. 

Anyway, you might or might not see yourself in this light. But I really light up when I see a man working to seek that deep, two-way connection with their wives. I understand it so differently than I used to, but, at the same time, that won't help you if your wife continues to see you as needy. And you can't force her to change, of course. 

What I would recommend: 
1. Don't stop trying to communicate with her about how you feel, ever. I am grateful beyond words that my husband didn't stop trying during that decade when I was steeped in resentment; when I came out of it and could "hear" him, he was there waiting for me and ready to work with me. It is not needy to communicate your heart. 

2. Make sure you have balance in other areas of your life, and that you are not "over giving" at work, with friends, as a father, son, brother, etc. Make sure you are maintaining your physical and mental health where YOU have control. Sometimes it can relieve pressure on your marriage and actually reduce a spouse's perception of "neediness" to see her partner out doing things for himself. (This is where recommendations of MMSLP and NMMNG seem to crop up--I think applying those techniques can work, but not when framed as a way to "get" something from your spouse. Don't manipulate, ever. Always be clear and honest in your communication.)





alexm said:


> I am about 8 pages behind at the moment, so I have some catching up to do!
> 
> In the meantime - update:
> 
> ...


If you can, try to separate understanding your wife emotionally from understanding her sexually. Sometimes the two are less related that you might think, or than might appear. Ideally, this is something you could ask her to talk about with you--it can actually be a really fun discussion to have when you're both feeling relaxed. 

The reason I asked you earlier if you thought your wife tended towards submissive in the bedroom didn't have to do with how much she gave/received during sex itself, but more about her attitude towards whose responsibility it is to lead your sex lives in general. 

When I initiate at all, I do it in ways similar to how your wife did in in your example here--I do things to signal availability. Sometimes it's far more subtle than sprawling naked on the bed (that to me is a STRONG initiation!) But I also never refuse my husband if he initiates. Ever. And I've communicated to him that I will never refuse him, and that he should always expect to get sex when he wants sex, and not "give up" based on any "vibes" he gets from me. 

Now, that was something I discussed clearly with him, but it has taken so much pressure off of me to make sure he's "kept happy" sexually. But he does have to be the driver most of the time. I initiate when I want sex, and have worked on being more overt about it. I also initiate if too much time has passed since we last had sex. I know he's a man who is sensitive to not "taking advantage" of our "no refusal" agreement, and in times when I'm tired or stressed, he (as usual) puts my needs first. So as soon as I'm feeling up to it after a period of time like that, I usually feel so well taken care of an appreciative of him, that I feel a strong urge to please him sexually--I guess as a way of saying "thank you." 

So, your wife's sexuality is a bit of a mystery to me. But is it a mystery to her? Does she understand herself very well, but has been reluctant to communicate with you about it on a very deep and detailed level? It was hard to me to tell my husband about some aspects of my sexuality, but once I did, our intimacy really went to a new level. But I did have to spend time reflecting and figuring myself out. Would your wife be willing to do that--even just to TALK about it to you without the pressure of feeling that she'd have to DO something different?

Sorry for the book Alex. Hope you can keep ahead of resentment, always. 

GI


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> It was a "poke" at "political correctness" and at the "macho" way, in which this was mentioned back then (IIRC). But since you mention it: yes, you generally do need some form of consent. "Even" if you are married. It doesn't need to be verbal. But it would be funny if that was always the absolute minimum requirement
> I bet this is how every British husband initiates (in a posh voice): "My Darling wife, may I commence indecorous intercourse with you shortly"
> :nerd:


It is just going to be better if you get her consent, too.

I mean, who really wants to imagine otherwise?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I did not say a THING to him about it - and I did still O (it took me 45 minutes!!) - and I was very attentive to him and enthusiastic the whole time. Really! The moment our heads hit the pillow he says "*Sorry I was no good for you." And then it's a negative emotion to end the night because he is wallowing in self pity* and so am I. Like I said - I said nothing, and I didn't even DO anything to make it seem like I was not happy. He still goes with the self inflicted knife wound though.


Ohhh, that's so annoying. Instead of telling you how wonderful it was for him and appreciating your honest, enthusiastic efforts, he ruins it all with the self pity. Aarrgghhh!



kag123 said:


> From a LD perspective it is really really HARD to enter into sex with your spouse when it's like playing with a loaded gun. Someone else said (alexm?) that sex should be light hearted and fun and a natural occurrence. And it seems like when you are dating that happens easily. But somewhere along the line sex became riddled with emotional minefields and weighed down with so much expectation. At least in MY marriage. It's a game that I frankly don't know how to win. Does anyone enjoy playing a game that they almost never win?


This is a really important comment. It's hard for anybody to enter into anything when there's so much emotional baggage involved. And, that does probably explain a large part of why sex is easy when you're dating; everybody knows what's expected and all the emotional garbage hasn't become attached yet.

One thing that always bothers me is when one partner is putting in an honest effort to care about the other's happiness and the effort isn't appreciated.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> It is just going to be better if you get her consent, too.
> 
> I mean, who really wants to imagine otherwise?


My wife likes to imagine that actually.

Last night, for example, she gave me consent to take her "without consent". I had to think about that one for a minute but then knew exactly what to do. :whip:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> My wife likes to imagine that actually.
> 
> Last night, for example, she gave me consent to take her "without consent". I had to think about that one for a minute but then knew exactly what to do. :whip:


Lol! 

But you actually had consent, you know? Actually being aggressed or molested feels much different. _Not good._


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> IDK, doesn't really sound like responsive desire if she shuts herself down all other times except the one time.
> 
> When you said you tried on Saturday but nada, can you clarify this (i.e. how were you shut down)?


The big trick with responsive desire is for the person who has it to allow the opportunity for it to kick in.

Often they don't ("why should I start the process towards having sex if I'm not aroused now?").

That's where most of the problems lie.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> The big trick with responsive desire is for the person who has it to allow the opportunity for it to kick in.
> 
> Often they don't ("why should I start the process towards having sex if I'm not aroused now?").
> 
> That's where most of the problems lie.


I don't think that is where most of the problems lie . . .


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I see it here all the time--men who have difficulty standing by their needs unapologetically for a variety of reasons.


This is the number one problem I see as well. They think that the solution is to get their wives to understand their needs and volunteer to meet them (after all, we aren't comfortable imposing on others. 

Nope. 

The solution is state your needs unapologetically.



GettingIt_2 said:


> And I've done a lot of thinking about it, and a lot of talking to men and women in long term relationships about it. Something I'm beginning to understand is that men who tend to neglect themselves in their relationships tend to be "givers" in general, and tend to also put themselves and their needs/wants last in other areas of their lives, too. Long story short, men like this--men who step up and care for others first--DO need a soft place to land at home, with the ONE person they trust to carry that load when they want to lay it down, just for a little bit. They DO want that deep intimacy with their wives. They DO need a place to refuel. It's got nothing to do with them being needy with their wives, it has to do with how much the GIVE of themselves on a day to day basis in ALL areas of their lives. It's the exactly opposite of needy.
> 
> Anyway, you might or might not see yourself in this light. But I really light up when I see a man working to seek that deep, two-way connection with their wives. I understand it so differently than I used to, but, at the same time, that won't help you if your wife continues to see you as needy. And you can't force her to change, of course.


Wow. So you and maybe 4 other women understand men like me.



GettingIt_2 said:


> If you can, try to separate understanding your wife emotionally from understanding her sexually. Sometimes the two are less related that you might think, or than might appear. Ideally, this is something you could ask her to talk about with you--it can actually be a really fun discussion to have when you're both feeling relaxed.


Yes. There's absolutely no reason why sex has to mean the same things to her emotionally that it means to you.



GettingIt_2 said:


> The reason I asked you earlier if you thought your wife tended towards submissive in the bedroom didn't have to do with how much she gave/received during sex itself, but more about her attitude towards whose responsibility it is to lead your sex lives in general.
> 
> When I initiate at all, I do it in ways similar to how your wife did in in your example here--I do things to signal availability. Sometimes it's far more subtle than sprawling naked on the bed (that to me is a STRONG initiation!) But I also never refuse my husband if he initiates. Ever. And I've communicated to him that I will never refuse him, and that *he should always expect to get sex when he wants sex, and not "give up" based on any "vibes" he gets from me. *
> 
> Now, that was something I discussed clearly with him, but it has taken so much pressure off of me to make sure he's "kept happy" sexually. But he does have to be the driver most of the time. I initiate when I want sex, and have worked on being more overt about it. I also initiate if too much time has passed since we last had sex. I know he's a man who is sensitive to not "taking advantage" of our "no refusal" agreement, and in times when I'm tired or stressed, he (as usual) puts my needs first. So as soon as I'm feeling up to it after a period of time like that, I usually feel so well taken care of an appreciative of him, that I feel a strong urge to please him sexually--I guess as a way of saying "thank you."


Men want women to feel the same way about sex that they do, need it as much and initiate equally.

Not going to happen. We need to work on getting over this.

Women don't just sit around thinking about sex and giving off "vibes". Mostly, they respond to the "vibes" given off by their partner.

Alison Armstrong points out that the more emotionally connected a man is to a woman, the less likely he is to initiate. Because the possible pain of rejection is so much higher.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Emotionally connected, or emotionally dependent?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> Emotionally connected, or emotionally dependent?


Connected.

If he's not emotionally connected to her, rejection wouldn't matter.

Perhaps a "real" man wouldn't be bothered in the least if he was rejected by his wife. But then, neither would a sociopath


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Genuine gratitude - the real article - such a powerful amplifier. 

And the opposite of gratitude - so emotionally draining. 





Buddy400 said:


> Ohhh, that's so annoying. Instead of telling you how wonderful it was for him and appreciating your honest, enthusiastic efforts, he ruins it all with the self pity. Aarrgghhh!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Connected.
> 
> If he's not emotionally connected to her, rejection wouldn't matter.
> 
> Perhaps a "real" man wouldn't be bothered in the least if he was rejected by his wife. But then, neither would a sociopath


He can be emotionally connected to her and not take any rejection personally. Of course, if he does think he is the cause of her rejection, he can examine his conscience and see what he could do differently to inspire her.

But an emotionally dependent man, one who gives away most of his power to decide how he is going to think and feel, would surely take rejection personally. And instead of trying to empower himself to make things better, would likely blame her, and wait for her to fix things, resentment growing in him all the while.

Just looked at her site. She seems to believe women can "emasculate" men. I think the only "emasculation" is _self-_emasculation.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Connected.
> 
> If he's not emotionally connected to her, rejection wouldn't matter.
> 
> Perhaps a "real" man wouldn't be bothered in the least if he was rejected by his wife. *But then, neither would a sociopath*


It is funny how if a guy says that the physical aspect of their relationship helps to strengthen the emotional connection with his SO, some try to spin it to being emotionally dependent. If anything, you could argue the opposite, otherwise the physical aspect wouldn't matter as long as the guy is being told he is a good boy ...

It is important to add too when it comes to the word "dependent", I would guess most of us are dependent on our SO in one way or the other in a relationship. It is going to vary of course from one relationship to the next, but seems like a negative connotation keeps getting applied to this word ... What is important is that hopefully each person understands not only their needs, but their SOs needs as well, the areas where they may be dependent on each other, and work towards a common goal.

Also, got a real chuckle out of the bolded :grin2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> It is funny how if a guy says that the physical aspect of their relationship helps to strengthen the emotional connection with his SO, some try to spin it to being emotionally dependent. If anything, you could argue the opposite, otherwise the physical aspect wouldn't matter as long as the guy is being told he is a good boy ...
> 
> It is important to add too when it comes to the word "dependent", I would guess most of us are dependent on our SO in one way or the other in a relationship. It is going to vary of course from one relationship to the next, but seems like a negative connotation keeps getting applied to this word ... What is important is that hopefully each person understands not only their needs, but their SOs needs as well, the areas where they may be dependent on each other, and work towards a common goal.
> 
> Also, got a real chuckle out of the bolded :grin2:


There is nothing wrong with saying that your physical relationship with your wife strengthens your emotional one.

The risky area is expecting her to change to accommodate you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> He can be emotionally connected to her and not take any rejection personally. Of course, if he does think he is the cause of her rejection, he can examine his conscience and see what he could do differently to inspire her.
> 
> But an emotionally dependent man, one who gives away most of his power to decide how he is going to think and feel, would surely take rejection personally. And instead of trying to empower himself to make things better, would likely blame her, and wait for her to fix things, resentment growing in him all the while.


I could initiate with 100 women with whom I am not emotionally connected, get rejected 100 times and not feel the least bit bad about it.

I could initiate with my wife, who claims to love me, 100 times, be rejected a couple of times and probably manage not to weep openly about it.

I'm so tough that I could initiate with my wife 100 times, be rejected the majority of the time and probably *still* not weep openly about it.

The question is: Why would I bother to do that? If I want to prove how tough I am, I could just hit myself in the head with a hammer. It would be a lot simpler.

If a man initiates sex with his wife, she rejects him and he doesn't feel the least bit bad about it, then he really doesn't have much of an emotional attachment to her.

And yes, a man should not allow his wife to succeed in emasculating him. But it's worth wondering why she's trying to.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> There is nothing wrong with saying that your physical relationship with your wife strengthens your emotional one.
> 
> The risky area is expecting her to change to accommodate you.


It is risky expecting either person to change to accommodate the other person, regardless of what the "accommodation" is. The hope, if your SO is vested in the relationship and cares about the other person, they are willing to communication with each other to meet at some common ground. Stating it as "accommodate" does slant the topic negatively, as it seems to imply that it one sided (i.e. I need it my way only), where that is definitely not the impression I get from most people.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I could initiate with 100 women with whom I am not emotionally connected, get rejected 100 times and not feel the least bit bad about it.
> 
> I could initiate with my wife, who claims to love me, 100 times, be rejected a couple of times and probably manage not to weep openly about it.
> 
> ...


She cannot emasculate him, Buddy. She simply does not have that power. He ultimately decides how he is going to think and feel about himself.

The thing to do if you are continually rejected is to ask her about it and examine your own mindset and behavior. 

Sure, sometimes she is ill or there is some other cause that has nothing to do with the man. But even then, his understanding and caring is likely to get things back on track much quicker.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> There is nothing wrong with saying that your physical relationship with your wife strengthens your emotional one.
> 
> The risky area is expecting her to change to accommodate you.


How to Succeed with Women: Never expect them to change to accommodate you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> It is risky expecting either person to change to accommodate the other person, regardless of what the "accommodation" is. The hope, if your SO is vested in the relationship and cares about the other person, they are willing to communication with each other to meet at some common ground. Stating it as "accommodate" does slant the topic negatively, as it seems to imply that it one sided (i.e. I need it my way only), where that is definitely not the impression I get from most people.


That may indeed be how it feels to the other person, though.

Ellis, have you two gone to counseling regarding the frequency issue?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> So the question is then: why don't you *believe* her when she says it's not about control for her?


Let me re-iterate: I don't think it's a _conscious_ control. I truly believe her subconscious rules her world, in a manner of speaking. I stop short of saying she's oblivious, but there is definitely a lack of awareness of many things - not just sex/relationship-wise.

I realize I'm painting her as a child who needs to be told "if you do this, then this may/will happen", and she's not that, but at the same time, I do find myself pointing out what certain consequences may be from time to time. She's just not a deep thinker, I guess. Things don't seem to naturally occur to her while making decisions.

She's far from stupid, I might add. But where I tend to over-think things, she tends to under-think them, hence the clash, I suppose.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> But that's totally OK? If you both were on holiday or she wasn't working, there is no question that you could be having sex at any day of the week.
> Why do you take it so personally?


I wouldn't say I take it personally. I would say I'm tired of the monotony of it. I know when and where it's going to happen, week in, week out.

I totally understand that this is a hard concept for many people to grasp, but it's all relative. We all have different issues with things, and without fail, somebody comes along who has it "better" than somebody else, yet still has complaints/issues/whatever. Trust me, I'm not oblivious to the fact that my situation is not terrible.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Let me re-iterate: I don't think it's a _conscious_ control. I truly believe her subconscious rules her world, in a manner of speaking. I stop short of saying she's oblivious, but there is definitely a lack of awareness of many things - not just sex/relationship-wise.
> 
> I realize I'm painting her as a child who needs to be told "if you do this, then this may/will happen", and she's not that, but at the same time, I do find myself pointing out what certain consequences may be from time to time. She's just not a deep thinker, I guess. Things don't seem to naturally occur to her while making decisions.
> 
> She's far from stupid, I might add. But where I tend to over-think things, she tends to under-think them, hence the clash, I suppose.


But my question didn't imply whether she is doing it consciously/deliberately or not: why do you find her explanation unsatisfactory? 
It seems a logistical/practical reason from her POV: she has a busy schedule/work, it's the only time to do it when both of you can be into it. When situation allows, it is clearly not the case (as has been demonstrated for the past two weeks where she didn't do it on those designated days). So: why do you not believe her when she says she is not doing it in order to "control" your sex life?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> She cannot emasculate him, Buddy. She simply does not have that power. He ultimately decides how he is going to think and feel about himself.


I disagree. Not all of us have the power to control how we feel. When my wife rejects me, I feel bad. She DOES have the power to cause that feeling. Similarly, when she consents to my requests, I feel better about myself. She has that power as well.

What she can NOT control is how I react to feeling bad. I can tell her it makes me feel bad and ask her to stop. She gets to decide whether to accept or reject me on subsequent occasions. I can stay with her and allow her to make me feel bad by rejecting me again and again. Or I can decide I don't enjoy feeling bad and leave her. In some cases i can change my behavior and trigger feelings in her so she wants to consent more often. See, I have power to control how she feels too. Well, in some ways. There is not always anything that a particular perosn can do to inspire feelings of lust or even desire to consent in a particular partner.

These days we don't have sex at all, so she doesn't get to reject me. She could still make me feel bad if I initiated and she rejected me. I did not take away her power to make me feel bad. I took away any opportunity for her to use that power. She liked having the power. She liked being able to use it. It gave her a feeling of control. In the end it proved false.

Most likely we would both have been better off if she had chosen to use her power to make me feel good by consenting more of the time. She sees that now. Too late. I think deep down she regrets denying me so much of the time years ago. She sees how much bad feeling she generated and how good feeling she could could have created. She lived in fear that I would "take advantage of her". Now that I have proven myself reliably faithful, she realizes it was a mistake to mistrust me. Unfortunately, by the time she realized the truth, I was more interested in taking away her opportunities to use her power than to give her opportunity to use it for good.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> My wife is the same, most of the time. But on the rare occasions that I managed to draw her out and openly talk to me about things, it's like a waterfall. Plus it puts a lot of things in my mind to rest.
> Make an effort getting her to talk/be open with you. It's worth it.


Done that. It's painful all around. Not because of what's said, just the journey getting there.

There are some people that will open up if you poke them a little bit (lead a horse to water and all that). Then there are people who need a cattle prod to get there. She's the latter.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I wouldn't say I take it personally. I would say I'm tired of the monotony of it. I know when and where it's going to happen, week in, week out.
> 
> I totally understand that this is a hard concept for many people to grasp, but it's all relative. We all have different issues with things, and without fail, somebody comes along who has it "better" than somebody else, yet still has complaints/issues/whatever. Trust me, I'm not oblivious to the fact that my situation is not terrible.


Ok, then I am perhaps misunderstanding something. 
Let me reverse it then: if you knew that initiating sex with you on other days of the week (when she is stressed/tired/overworked etc) would cause her a lot of inconvenience and would potentially lead to less fulfilling sex, would you want her to still change it for you so that it doesn't feel 'monotone' to you?

(I am not saying this would be an unreasonable request from you, I wonder what your thinking on this would be).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> Originally Posted by jld View Post
> It must be stressful to work full-time and have children. I know plenty of women do it, but to me it looks stressful.
> 
> I think that it is only stressful if you don't have a supportive partner. It would be stressful for either a male or female.
> ...


Yes, it is stressful to work full time and have children. I fully agree with this sentiment. Which is in no small part why I pick up a huge chunk of the slack around here.

Not because she can't or won't, but because I'm able to. Being self-employed has its benefits. Most days she comes home from work and there's absolutely nothing pressing to do.

I don't do this to show her how amazing of a husband I am, nor is it a covert contract. It's just reality. I'm able to do the things I do in the time that I have, so I do them.

I get **** done and I don't expect a reward - she knows this. I've verbally assured her of it, as well.

Perhaps it's to my detriment that I've told her from the get-go that there's no tit-for-tat dynamic going on here... :wink2:


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Great question @inmyprime


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Perhaps a "real" man wouldn't be bothered in the least if he was rejected by his wife. But then, neither would a sociopath


Tough choice


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Done that. It's painful all around. Not because of what's said, just the journey getting there.
> 
> There are some people that will open up if you poke them a little bit (lead a horse to water and all that). Then there are people who need a cattle prod to get there. She's the latter.


We often assume we are _the only_ thoughtful ones... 
Do you think it is possible she misses this emotional closeness with you? (in terms of opening up about stuff). And wonders why she can't talk to you about things on Monday, or Friday or Wednesday or Saturday etc about stuff that goes on in her life?
You strike me as an introvert (like myself, I am told) and it is often VERY hard for people like us to be open and more importantly: to be able to encourage our partners to be open with us.
The reason i mention is that these conversations *really do* help understanding where the other person is coming from. And it helps understand the other person's frustrations.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> I realize I'm painting her as a child who needs to be told "if you do this, then this may/will happen", and she's not that, but at the same time, I do find myself pointing out what certain consequences may be from time to time. She's just not a deep thinker, I guess. Things don't seem to naturally occur to her while making decisions.
> 
> She's far from stupid, I might add. But where I tend to over-think things, she tends to under-think them, hence the clash, I suppose.


I don't know, Alex. Dr. J2 has a simplified view of the world as well, which often requires significant intervention from Dr. J to gap the chasm.

For a 25 year old bride fresh out of college it's understandable, but for a 58 year old professional... 

Compare your wife not with some arbitrary standard of emotional maturity but with immediate family or culture members... 

Then you can proclaim the level as such.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> IDK, doesn't really sound like responsive desire if she shuts herself down all other times except the one time.
> 
> When you said you tried on Saturday but nada, can you clarify this (i.e. how were you shut down)?


Yeah, it doesn't fit the mould of responsive desire, I know that. And that's what I'm trying to figure out, I guess.

She absolutely IS responsive desire, however - just on certain days?

As others have said, and I agree with, the week is tiring for all of us. Being responsive desire is rather moot, as she effectively 'shuts it down' Sun-Fri. But in her mind, she has a reason, so she pre-emptively says no, to herself (and to me, if I try). This is really what I'm trying to break her from, but with no headway thus far. That part of her brain that says "Mon-Fri = no". It's frustrating because, those of you who have kids will get this - not doing something or trying something because you've already decided you won't like it. Ugh.

Saturday was half-assed on my part, I fully admit. She had a headache all day, and it did go away later in the evening. But she clearly was not feeling it, so I didn't push. I got as far as making it known that I was in the mood, I guess. So not really initiating, and not really rejected. I also knew that if I pushed, I would either get rejected or she'd acquiesce but just not be into it. Meh either way.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Well, you've shown that the actual day can be altered...Friday, Sunday. So I guess the trick would be, can you find the combination of logistical and emotional inputs that would re-create the same atmosphere at different times? 

Some are convinced this is about SLA and controlling frequency. But it's possible that control is only incidental, that the "safe space" for her to feel sexual only happens naturally once a week, and at other times she panics because she "knows" she can't get there mentally and doesn't want to disappoint you. Has there ever been an atypical Saturday that incorporated more of the weekday stressors, and if so, did that torpedo the routine?

This would obviously be a lot easier if you could talk openly without her feeling threatened or defensive. In particular, it would be nice if she could calmly re-examine some of her underlying assumptions about needing everything sorted and "just so" to relax, if that is indeed what is holding her back. I doubt the real problem is that you aren't doing enough housework or whatever: my gut feeling is that she's got this mental tape of _can't-relax-on-a-school-night_ playing regardless of whether the dishes etc are done or not. 

Sure, you need to be supportive and "inspiring" and avoid acting from anger or passive aggression. And "duty sex" is less than ideal unless it comes from a truly giving place devoid of resentment. I'd say her true responsibility isn't to simply put out whenever and wherever, but rather to take stock of her own mentality and seek ways to change or re-frame her maladaptive assumptions when they are causing this much conflict & unhappiness in the relationship. It's disturbing that she apparently isn't open to seeking a joint solution to this, even if she doesn't know where to begin.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> Is this a significant departure from the norm, or is it a variation of the same?
> 
> Either way do you know why it has changed?


Well, I can only speculate at this time, but the fact that I am no longer chasing, for starters. Not expecting, either.

Is it a departure? I guess so, yes. Neither of us really initiated for a long time. That's what happens when there's one day, one time - it becomes expectation. Therefore neither of us has had to initiate sex in a while.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> That may indeed be how it feels to the other person, though.
> 
> Ellis, have you two gone to counseling regarding the frequency issue?


No, our marriage isn't to a point where counseling is needed. We have talked openly about the issue before, and I don't see any issues with us doing so again (there haven't been any changes in the issues/challenges). The hurdle right now being time constraints, but we should get some time together away in a few weeks.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> We often assume we are _the only_ thoughtful ones...
> Do you think it is possible she misses this emotional closeness with you? (in terms of opening up about stuff). And wonders why she can't talk to you about things on Monday, or Friday or Wednesday or Saturday etc about stuff that goes on in her life?
> You strike me as an introvert (like myself, I am told) and it is often VERY hard for people like us to be the open ones and talk about things openly.
> The reason i mention is that these conversations *really do* help understanding where the other person is coming from. And it helps understand the other person's frustrations.


It sounds like she may be more introverted than he is.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> Let me re-iterate: I don't think it's a _conscious_ control. I truly believe her subconscious rules her world, in a manner of speaking. I stop short of saying she's oblivious, but there is definitely a lack of awareness of many things - not just sex/relationship-wise.
> 
> I realize I'm painting her as a child who needs to be told "if you do this, then this may/will happen", and she's not that, but at the same time, I do find myself pointing out what certain consequences may be from time to time. She's just not a deep thinker, I guess. Things don't seem to naturally occur to her while making decisions.
> 
> She's far from stupid, I might add. But where I tend to over-think things, she tends to under-think them, hence the clash, I suppose.


Maybe she just doesn't care. Not that she doesn't care about you, she does. But, she doesn't care about sex as much as you do. That's not her love language, and she'll do it to make you happy, but she doesn't care about it, otherwise. She likes it when it happens, but it's not the end of the world, if it doesn't happen. So, maybe planning it out is the best you'll get, because you can't force someone to care about something that they simply don't care about. (not that you're forcing but just saying) It might seem personal, but I get the sense that this just isn't a priority to her, and that it's not personal. I don't get the feeling that if you do this or that, she'll then be more inclined to having spontaneous sex with you. I just don't think it matters to her all that much, but you matter, and she is willing to meet you halfway, which is what planning it is about.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> Yeah, it doesn't fit the mould of responsive desire, I know that. And that's what I'm trying to figure out, I guess.
> 
> She absolutely IS responsive desire, however - just on certain days?
> 
> ...


I will confess that I am like your wife in this regard. Not that there has to be a certain day of the week; but that I am mentally calculating in my head before we ever enter the bedroom whether the effort is going to be worthwhile or not. I think of things like: What time is it right now? If we do this and it takes X minutes...what time am I likely going to sleep tonight? What time do I have to get up the next morning? How tired am I ... how tired does he seem? Have we connected at all non-physically today (i.e. had at least one actual conversation with each other, spent any time together?) Do I actually think I'll have an easy time having an O or will it be a long drawn out process? Does he seem like he even wants it right now? How long has it been since the last time we did it?

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-58712-Hangover-Zach-Galifianakis-cal-A7Dn.gif

The thing is...this is just the calculation for me to initiate. My H never ever initiates. 

Your last comment got me though. "Not really initiating, not really rejected." I sometimes think my husband THINKS he's letting me know he wants it, but really it doesn't seem like much to me and it's something easy to overlook. He'll sleep a little closer to me than usual and consider that to be initiating, for example. I'm left to be like uhhh...what? Please tell me you don't do that!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> But my question didn't imply whether she is doing it consciously/deliberately or not: why do you find her explanation unsatisfactory?
> It seems a logistical/practical reason from her POV: she has a busy schedule/work, it's the only time to do it when both of you can be into it. When situation allows, it is clearly not the case (as has been demonstrated for the past two weeks where she didn't do it on those designated days). So: why do you not believe her when she says she is not doing it in order to "control" your sex life?


Fair enough.

Important to mention that she's never actually used those as excuses (tiredness, stressed, etc.). I'm assuming those are the reasons for it during the week. Logical assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. I should know better!

I guess I've never really got a proper answer from her as to why. I've asked, but it's vague answers. "Don't feel like it" or often, just "I love you, but no". :grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> Yeah, it doesn't fit the mould of responsive desire, I know that. And that's what I'm trying to figure out, I guess.
> 
> She absolutely IS responsive desire, however - just on certain days?
> 
> ...


That is a tough one, but definitely different in terms of responsive desire vs what I see with my W (where I guess she fits more with the "classic" definition). The problem that can happen with preemptively blocking days, and I am sure many can relate to, especially with kids, you never know what is going to come up on that "scheduled" day. You may end up skipping a perfectly good day and then having to miss a "scheduled" day for other circumstances. 

I think the answer is yes, but for whatever reason this seems to get asked of you again and again. Do you think you have done your best to listen/understand your W?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Ok, then I am perhaps misunderstanding something.
> Let me reverse it then: if you knew that initiating sex with you on other days of the week (when she is stressed/tired/overworked etc) would cause her a lot of inconvenience and would potentially lead to less fulfilling sex, would you want her to still change it for you so that it doesn't feel 'monotone' to you?
> 
> (I am not saying this would be an unreasonable request from you, I wonder what your thinking on this would be).


This is not the best response, because I'm effectively comparing her to my ex wife - but she (ex wife) wanted sex with me, despite our incompatibilities. She would initiate, I would initiate - whatever (also whenever and wherever!).

The sex was not good. But I didn't see it that way. We were still connecting, and we still had interest in sex, and we still had interest in each other (until she didn't, and cheated, and left for OM.. but anyway!).

We made the best out of the situation as it was. Despite having lousy (physical) sex, I was happy.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

So, it seems like it's more about your wife's lack of initiation being taken as not wanting you. Not desiring you. Even if the sex is ''bad,'' it's nice to be desired, is your thinking. I can see that, it makes sense. But, she likely shows her love and desire to be with you, in other ways, sex just isn't her way. So, it doesn't register as rejection, or a lack of desiring you, she just desires you in other ways. 

I'm not saying your feelings should be dismissed, but there comes a point, where you have to weigh everything out, and if your wife values you in other ways, then you might have to accept this as part of who she is, and the marriage.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kag123 said:


> I will confess that I am like your wife in this regard. Not that there has to be a certain day of the week; but that I am mentally calculating in my head before we ever enter the bedroom whether the effort is going to be worthwhile or not. I think of things like: What time is it right now? If we do this and it takes X minutes...what time am I likely going to sleep tonight? What time do I have to get up the next morning? How tired am I ... how tired does he seem? Have we connected at all non-physically today (i.e. had at least one actual conversation with each other, spent any time together?) Do I actually think I'll have an easy time having an O or will it be a long drawn out process? Does he seem like he even wants it right now? How long has it been since the last time we did it?
> 
> http://img.pandawhale.com/post-58712-Hangover-Zach-Galifianakis-cal-A7Dn.gif
> 
> ...


I hear you!

Yeah, I don't do that, and never have. Before I stopped trying during the week, she would KNOW, trust me.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> I think the answer is yes, but for whatever reason this seems to get asked of you again and again. Do you think you have done your best to listen/understand your W?


I can really only go by with what she's told me. Which is... not a lot. I'd say more than minimal, but not enough to truly understand her POV. That's her choice, and not for my lack of trying.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Yeah, it doesn't fit the mould of responsive desire, I know that. And that's what I'm trying to figure out, I guess.
> 
> She absolutely IS responsive desire, however - just on certain days?
> 
> ...


Have you ever looked at Myers-Briggs Type Inventory material? Your wife sounds like a J, when you want her to be more a P.

If you find her type, it could be an Aha! moment. And once you see what is normal for her, you may find yourself letting go of any resentment.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> I will confess that I am like your wife in this regard. Not that there has to be a certain day of the week; but that I am mentally calculating in my head before we ever enter the bedroom whether the effort is going to be worthwhile or not. I think of things like: What time is it right now? If we do this and it takes X minutes...what time am I likely going to sleep tonight? What time do I have to get up the next morning? How tired am I ... how tired does he seem? Have we connected at all non-physically today (i.e. had at least one actual conversation with each other, spent any time together?) Do I actually think I'll have an easy time having an O or will it be a long drawn out process? Does he seem like he even wants it right now? *How long has it been since the last time we did it?
> *


Can I ask you about the context for the last question you ask yourself? (I do get all the other questions). How does it figure in your overall decision-making process?

The reason I ask is: my wife will come up to me every 2-3 days but never on consecutive days. This mere fact could lead me to believe that she is carefully engineering our sex life (maybe she does, I have no idea) and does it only for my benefit. I had a long chat with her about it last night. She did say that she is generally more aware of "consequences" when it comes to sex (as in, she has to think what time the baby might wake up, what she has to do the next morning, what to prepare for the kids before they go to school etc). She did explain that if the consequences (or 'life') were not there then there would be no reason for sex *not* to be a priority and no reason for it *not* to happen any day, or on every day.
I'm also self-employed and basically make my own working hours most of the time. It is true my days are a complete improvisation. I have no reason to doubt her explanation though I suppose I could, if I tried.

Somebody mentioned that "she doesn't care about sex as much as you do". While it is not wrong (in fact it is probably true), it is also way too simplistic the way it is phrased. We all have responsibilities and certain things we need to do over the course of a day. If we shift our priorities around, it doesn't mean that we stopped caring about something or that alarm bells need to start ringing. 

@alexm, when you are on holiday together (2 of you): what does your sex life look like? (don't send me pictures!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Another great question from @inmyprime.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I can really only go by with what she's told me. Which is... not a lot. I'd say more than minimal, but not enough to truly understand her POV. That's her choice, and not for my lack of trying.


I think that's an aspect (to have open conversations more often with each other) in your relationship that needs to be looked at, I feel.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

kag123 said:


> I will confess that I am like your wife in this regard. Not that there has to be a certain day of the week; but that I am mentally calculating in my head before we ever enter the bedroom whether the effort is going to be worthwhile or not. I think of things like: What time is it right now? If we do this and it takes X minutes...what time am I likely going to sleep tonight? What time do I have to get up the next morning? How tired am I ... how tired does he seem? Have we connected at all non-physically today (i.e. had at least one actual conversation with each other, spent any time together?) Do I actually think I'll have an easy time having an O or will it be a long drawn out process? Does he seem like he even wants it right now? How long has it been since the last time we did it?


What if you consciously decided to short-circuit all that calculation? Looked in his eyes and said, "hey, I love you. I want to be close to you. I'm preoccupied with [list of concerns] and I don't know where I am sexually: if I can have an O, or if I want to. And I'm nervous about not meeting expectations you may have. But I want to lie with you and feel our togetherness and let whatever happens, happen"?

This would be you just putting it out there with careful attention to tone and delivery, not as a defensive disclaimer or shut-down strategem, but to clear the air and forestall resentment. How would he respond? How would @alexm respond if A2 did that? And how would that feel for you, or for any LD spouse?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Important to mention that she's never actually used those as excuses (tiredness, stressed, etc.). I'm assuming those are the reasons for it during the week. Logical assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. I should know better!
> 
> I guess I've never really got a proper answer from her as to why. I've asked, but it's vague answers. "Don't feel like it" or often, just "I love you, but no". :grin2:





alexm said:


> I hear you!
> 
> Yeah, I don't do that, and never have. Before I stopped trying during the week, she would KNOW, trust me.





alexm said:


> I can really only go by with what she's told me. Which is... not a lot. I'd say more than minimal, but not enough to truly understand her POV. That's her choice, and not for my lack of trying.


Alex, there is a theme that runs through many of your posts that makes me think the best place for you to start might be with improving your communication with your wife. I mean on the really deep stuff. For one reason or another, she's not opening up to you. And it *appears* as though you might be pretty quick to accept her dismissive answers. I don't mean that she is being dismissive of you, but rather she's not motivated to really put a lot of thought into her responses. For example, she might not "feel like it", but what are the drivers of that disinterest? And she might "love you," but what does that really mean to her? 

Do you feel like you can have these conversations with her without her (or you) getting defensive? How is the emotional trust between the two of you? 

I don't think you should step back from initiating any more than you already have in your marriage. When you initiate, you show her your interest in her, and your attraction to her. I'm guessing both of those things are really important to her self esteem and to her security. Yes, I know that you want to feel desired, too--I think we all want that from our partners. However, if sex slips even more for you, I'm afraid the likelihood of you wanting to continue to pursue a deeply intimate emotional connection with her might slip, too. That's really dangerous territory for a marriage to enter, I think. 



Phil Anders said:


> What if you consciously decided to short-circuit all that calculation? Looked in his eyes and said, "hey, I love you. I want to be close to you. I'm preoccupied with [list of concerns] and I don't know where I am sexually: if I can have an O, or if I want to. And I'm nervous about not meeting expectations you may have. But I want to lie with you and feel our togetherness and let whatever happens, happen"?
> 
> This would be you just putting it out there with careful attention to tone and delivery, not as a defensive disclaimer or shut-down strategem, but to clear the air and forestall resentment. How would he respond? How would @alexm respond if A2 did that? And how would that feel for you, or for any LD spouse?


This, IMO, is a good example of honest communication that could open up some doors to a really productive, intimate exchange. It expresses vulnerability, and shows trust.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> @alexm, when you are on holiday together (2 of you): what does your sex life look like?


Curious about this one as well. If you guys go away together (sans kids), are you still expected to adhere to the "schedule", or does taking her out of the home/work environment help to free her of some of those "burdens"?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree. Not all of us have the power to control how we feel. When my wife rejects me, I feel bad. She DOES have the power to cause that feeling. Similarly, when she consents to my requests, I feel better about myself. She has that power as well.


I think we all feel that initial pinch when we hear something we did not expect. We can regain control of that power we hand over, though. Trying to understand where the other person is coming from, and where their issues start and ours stop, can help.



> What she can NOT control is how I react to feeling bad. I can tell her it makes me feel bad and ask her to stop. She gets to decide whether to accept or reject me on subsequent occasions. I can stay with her and allow her to make me feel bad by rejecting me again and again. Or I can decide I don't enjoy feeling bad and leave her.


Or you could seek to understand where she is coming from, and quieten any emotion inside of yourself while doing it. 

So often we assign motives to people that are not even accurate. Or they are accurate, but they have way more to do with that person and their insecurities than they have to do with us. Separating ourselves from their issues can be very freeing.



> In some cases i can change my behavior and trigger feelings in her so she wants to consent more often. See, I have power to control how she feels too. Well, in some ways. There is not always anything that a particular perosn can do to inspire feelings of lust or even desire to consent in a particular partner.


We may try to influence each other, but we may not always succeed. Whatever a person may be ready to hear at any particular time may be anyone's guess.

Still may not hurt to try. 



> These days we don't have sex at all, so she doesn't get to reject me. She could still make me feel bad if I initiated and she rejected me. I did not take away her power to make me feel bad. I took away any opportunity for her to use that power. She liked having the power. She liked being able to use it. It gave her a feeling of control. In the end it proved false.


Do you know any of this for sure? Or is this your interpretation of what you saw/heard/felt?



> Most likely we would both have been better off if she had chosen to use her power to make me feel good by consenting more of the time. She sees that now. Too late. I think deep down she regrets denying me so much of the time years ago. She sees how much bad feeling she generated and how good feeling she could could have created. She lived in fear that I would "take advantage of her". Now that I have proven myself reliably faithful, she realizes it was a mistake to mistrust me. Unfortunately, by the time she realized the truth, I was more interested in taking away her opportunities to use her power than to give her opportunity to use it for good.


This is so unhealthy, so limiting to your own happiness as well as your wife's, Holding. Really enough to go back to counseling to discuss, imo.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Important to mention that she's never actually used those as excuses (tiredness, stressed, etc.). I'm assuming those are the reasons for it during the week. Logical assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. I should know better!
> 
> I guess I've never really got a proper answer from her as to why. I've asked, but it's vague answers. "Don't feel like it" or often, just "I love you, but no". :grin2:


I would investigate that assumption- I've read that low desire/low frequency is a common reason why couples come to sex therapy and many times, the reason is stress. It IS a common issue that impacts the sex in a marriage. Many men might not get that, and still want sex despite being stressed or even as a way to cope with stress, but many women are not wired that way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I would investigate that assumption- I've read that low desire/low frequency is a common reason why couples come to sex therapy and many times, the reason is stress. It IS a common issue that impacts the sex in a marriage. Many men might not get that, and still want sex despite being stressed or even as a way to cope with stress, but many women are not wired that way.


I think women will gravitate toward what gives them energy in a marriage (may be the same for men). If his expectations take energy away from her, rather than give it to her, she may consciously or unconsciously avoid them.

Not saying this is what is going on, alex. I still think it is just that you two have different rhythms, different standards, different expectations. And I would encourage you to look into MBTI.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I would investigate that assumption- I've read that low desire/low frequency is a common reason why couples come to sex therapy and many times, the reason is stress. It IS a common issue that impacts the sex in a marriage. Many men might not get that, and still want sex despite being stressed or even as a way to cope with stress, but many women are not wired that way.


Yes, unresolved, ongoing stress is a common libido killer for women (can be for men, too, but it often seems to impact a woman's drive quicker.) 

Alex, is your wife "wound tight" would you say? Does she have trouble unwinding or relaxing in other areas besides sex? What does she typically do to cope with stress, and is she good at mitigating its effects on her health? (does stress prevent her from sleeping well, eating well, exercising, etc? Is it something she regularly names as a reason for not taking care of herself?)

Managing stress and coping with stress is a skill that does not come easily to some people. But it can be learned. And once stress levels are back at a healthier level, then more emotional and mental resources are available for the marriage. AND for focusing on one's general health.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> This is not the best response, because I'm effectively comparing her to my ex wife - but she (ex wife) wanted sex with me, despite our incompatibilities. She would initiate, I would initiate - whatever (also whenever and wherever!).
> 
> The sex was not good. But I didn't see it that way. We were still connecting, and we still had interest in sex, and we still had interest in each other (until she didn't, and cheated, and left for OM.. but anyway!).
> 
> We made the best out of the situation as it was. Despite having lousy (physical) sex, I was happy.


Alex, do you think you may have underlying insecurity because of your first wife's leaving you? And you are seeking security in your current wife's willingness to have spontaneous sex with you? That would show you that you are safe with her, that she will not leave you?

Just throwing that out there.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> "Not really initiating, not really rejected." I sometimes think my husband THINKS he's letting me know he wants it, but really it doesn't seem like much to me and it's something easy to overlook. He'll sleep a little closer to me than usual and consider that to be initiating, for example. I'm left to be like uhhh...what?


OMG I HATE THIS. My husband does this ALL THE TIME. Like, he will go to bed before me and turn off the light. So when I come to bed the room is dark. That is supposed to be him 'initiating'. WTF???

We had zero sex this past weekend. I knew he was sending EXTREMELY subtle signals at one point but since I ignored them he never pursued the matter. I guess I'm not worth the extra effort. I am just wondering how long he's going to continue without sex. Surely at SOME point he'll actually come out and SAY something???????


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG I HATE THIS. My husband does this ALL THE TIME. Like, he will go to bed before me and turn off the light. So when I come to bed the room is dark. That is supposed to be him 'initiating'. WTF???
> 
> We had zero sex this past weekend. I knew he was sending EXTREMELY subtle signals at one point but since I ignored them he never pursued the matter. I guess I'm not worth the extra effort. *I am just wondering how long he's going to continue without sex. * Surely at SOME point he'll actually come out and SAY something???????


This seems to be a common "strategery" being employed by a few: the wait and see game.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't know how Alex's wife responds on vacation, but as a LD/ND female I always responded much better on our vacations because my day-to-day stress was absent. I needed not to have work or home distractions in order to focus. 

When you're LD/ND, things usually need to align very well and vacations are a great time for that.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Can I ask you about the context for the last question you ask yourself? (I do get all the other questions). How does it figure in your overall decision-making process?
> 
> The reason I ask is: my wife will come up to me every 2-3 days but never on consecutive days. This mere fact could lead me to believe that she is carefully engineering our sex life (maybe she does, I have no idea) and does it only for my benefit. I had a long chat with her about it last night. She did say that she is generally more aware of "consequences" when it comes to sex (as in, she has to think what time the baby might wake up, what she has to do the next morning, what to prepare for the kids before they go to school etc). She did explain that if the consequences (or 'life') were not there then there would be no reason for sex *not* to be a priority and no reason for it *not* to happen any day, or on every day.
> I'm also self-employed and basically make my own working hours most of the time. It is true my days are a complete improvisation. I have no reason to doubt her explanation though I suppose I could, if I tried.
> ...


Yes - consequences matter a great deal to me and are weighed. However, one of the consequences I weigh is his happiness. If it's been a long time (10+ days) alarm bells start going off in my head that I am failing as a wife and I need to fix that, quick. I pretty much just see a huge red FAIL sign in my head lol. There are only two caveats to that - if I am sick (then all bets are off) or if he's acting like a jerk, which includes being snarky or sullen and moping, both of which he does sometimes if it's been awhile. I can't be with him when he's acting like that. 



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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Phil Anders said:


> What if you consciously decided to short-circuit all that calculation? Looked in his eyes and said, "hey, I love you. I want to be close to you. I'm preoccupied with [list of concerns] and I don't know where I am sexually: if I can have an O, or if I want to. And I'm nervous about not meeting expectations you may have. But I want to lie with you and feel our togetherness and let whatever happens, happen"?
> 
> This would be you just putting it out there with careful attention to tone and delivery, not as a defensive disclaimer or shut-down strategem, but to clear the air and forestall resentment. How would he respond? How would @alexm respond if A2 did that? And how would that feel for you, or for any LD spouse?


So - being totally honest, I feel like I've tried to have this conversation with him before and it didn't go well. He doesn't understand these statements and if I say I want our sex to "not be goal oriented" then he thinks it means he shouldn't have an O either; and then he freaks a bit because he doesn't know how to make sure he DOESN'T have one. And when I tell him I don't care about that at all, we go round in circles. 

And once I get to talking strategy with him in some drawn out conversation, honestly, for me the moment has passed and I'm just not interested at all. If you get any other answer to the above except for "OK", it kind of kills the mood for me. 

I will be the first to admit that I have two big things going against me. First, it's really hard for me to turn my mind off and relax enough to have non-goal oriented sex. We don't get huge windows of time to just be together uninterrupted, so I can usually devote about 30 mins tops and then I'm in fight or flight mode thinking about how this is cutting into my sleep time or how the kids are going to come in soon. Second, I really dislike being touched for the most part. I'm the least affectionate person I've ever met. I actually have a huge personal space bubble and my H is the only one allowed inside of it, and even then it's limited. It would take a lot for me to allow him to touch me all over for some undetermined amount of time. I have tried for his benefit. And it's good when it happens. But my immediate visceral reaction to too much touching is discomfort and it doesn't turn me on at all. In fact it is quite the opposite... I am actually turned OFF by too much touching. It's like overstimulation. There is a mountain I need to get over whenever we start things together, where it does not feel good to me at all in the beginning and then once I get to a certain point I can relax into it. My H is sensitive to that (who wouldn't be?) And usually it peaks in an awkward moment where he shuts the whole thing down because he perceives I'm uncomfortable. Then the shame spiral begins. 

For the record, I have no abuse history. I just don't like to be touched that much. 

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Yes - consequences matter a great deal to me and are weighed. However, one of the consequences I weigh is his happiness. If it's been a long time (10+ days) alarm bells start going off in my head that I am failing as a wife and I need to fix that, quick. I pretty much just see a huge red FAIL sign in my head lol. There are only two caveats to that - if I am sick (then all bets are off) or if he's acting like a jerk, which includes being snarky or sullen and moping, both of which he does sometimes if it's been awhile. *I can't be with him when he's acting like that. *
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I don't blame you.

Does he ever take initiative to apologize for acting like that?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG I HATE THIS. My husband does this ALL THE TIME. Like, he will go to bed before me and turn off the light. So when I come to bed the room is dark. That is supposed to be him 'initiating'. WTF???
> 
> We had zero sex this past weekend. I knew he was sending EXTREMELY subtle signals at one point but since I ignored them he never pursued the matter. I guess I'm not worth the extra effort. I am just wondering how long he's going to continue without sex. Surely at SOME point he'll actually come out and SAY something???????


I think this is the biggest misunderstanding men have about women and sex.

What Men Think About Sex vs. Reality | The Huffington Post

From #3: "women generally do not want the primary focus of the sexual encounter to be on their pleasure. Instead, I hear female clients share frequent fantasies of being with men who are overpowered by lust and desire. If a woman feels like her partner has the sole goal of giving her an orgasm, it is quite a lot of pressure and can make her feel self-conscious and awkward. This does not mean that women do not want to enjoy sex; but, they have to feel that their partner is enjoying it at least primarily because he finds her so attractive sexually that he feels urgent desire for her."

A large part of a woman's sexuality is in response to her mate's desire for her.

It doesn't help that this idea gets almost no support from women and mass culture.

It doesn't help that most women have a very hard time internalizing this and that mass culture is telling them that they should feel about sex exactly as men feel about sex.

The men who trigger maximal sexual response from women are the guys who don't really care that much about what she wants ("bad boys").

The men who care the most about what she wants turn out to be the least capable of giving it to her.

It's really hard to make this work, but at least knowing how the game operates is of some value. 

I spent over 20 years not realizing that if I went home and asked my wife for a blowjob (*key edit*: and let her know how badly I wanted one), she'd be happy to do it (note; I am a* really* good husband).

The most surprising thing I've ever heard is my wife saying "I really like it when you **** my face".

Who knew?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG I HATE THIS. My husband does this ALL THE TIME. Like, he will go to bed before me and turn off the light. So when I come to bed the room is dark. That is supposed to be him 'initiating'. WTF???
> 
> We had zero sex this past weekend. I knew he was sending EXTREMELY subtle signals at one point but since I ignored them he never pursued the matter. I guess I'm not worth the extra effort. I am just wondering how long he's going to continue without sex. Surely at SOME point he'll actually come out and SAY something???????


Ha. So, years ago, there was one time I stopped initiating for the reasons you described. I just wanted to see how long it would take him to approach me, I guess. I got tons of little signals too, which I ignored. I guess I was hoping for something a little more forward from him. It never happened. It went from his subtle nudges to resentment city from him, where he began acting overly peeved at me, and that snarkiness I mentioned in a previous post came out in full force. In his mind he WAS initiating and I was being a total ***** by ignoring him. So he just got angry. 

That was years ago. I learned from that little experiment that I wasn't going to conduct any more experiments lol. (I also learned what a covert contract was.) It wasn't worth it and any damage it caused to the relationship. You can't keep wishing blood from a stone, you know? All I can do is be honest with my H and hope he is in the right mental space to respond to it. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't blame you.
> 
> Does he ever take initiative to apologize for acting like that?


No. 

He retreats into a shame spiral where he is silent and knows he's done something wrong. Have you ever yelled at a dog and seen that look they give you when they know they've done something wrong? It's that in human form. 

I let it go to be honest. I don't need a verbal apology most of the time, because I know this is just one of his things. Lord knows I've got my things, too, that I'm not proud of and if he backed me into a corner over it I wouldn't be too happy either. 

Edited to add: Sometimes he does make me angry with this type of behavior. And if we have sex, his behavior will change 180 immediately to sappy and sweet. I had posted somewhere before (maybe on this thread) that I sometimes find my husbands attitude after sex to be kind of...icky. Neither of us are overly sappy or sweet people. So when he acts like that it feels fake to me. Logically, I know in my heart he is being genuine when he behaves that way. Sex is the salve that makes his anger or crankiness melt away, remember. But truthfully sometimes I think I'm just still miffed about how he acted before we had sex, so I'm not ready to accept sappy and sweet treatment. Sex does not give me any sort of emotional connection to him - his day to day behavior has much more of an effect on me than sex ever would. If I'm feeling mad at him, sex isn't going to change that for me. 

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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Important to mention that she's never actually used those as excuses (tiredness, stressed, etc.). I'm assuming those are the reasons for it during the week. Logical assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. I should know better!
> 
> I guess I've never really got a proper answer from her as to why. I've asked, but it's vague answers. "Don't feel like it" or often, just "I love you, but no". :grin2:


I plan things out. I don't have to, it's just the way my mind works.

I like to have a good idea as to how the day is going to proceed.

The idea of friends just "popping by" terrifies me. No matter how good friends they might be or how much fun I would normally have with them, if I'd been planning on relaxing and reading (or mowing the lawn), I'm not going to want to spend hours talking with them (although, some times I *will *end up talking to them for hours and having a great time). 

I'd rather plan a time with them on Saturday night or agree that we should hang out twice a week or so.

I'm sure that's most of what's going on with your wife.

She shouldn't be so unyielding, she should give more weight to what makes you happy, she should make an effort to change it up with you more often.

Spontaneous sex means something to you that it doesn't mean to her. Just like friends popping by unexpectedly for a couple of hours means something to them that it doesn't mean to me. 

What worries me more than the "schedule" is that non- sexual intimacy is off the table as well outside of the designated hours. I'm guessing (hoping) that this is because she's worried that it may lead to some unplanned activity.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Ha. So, years ago, there was one time I stopped initiating for the reasons you described. I just wanted to see how long it would take him to approach me, I guess. I got tons of little signals too, which I ignored. I guess I was hoping for something a little more forward from him. It never happened. It went from his subtle nudges to resentment city from him, where he began acting overly peeved at me, and that snarkiness I mentioned in a previous post came out in full force. In his mind he WAS initiating and I was being a total ***** by ignoring him. So he just got angry.
> 
> That was years ago. I learned from that little experiment that I wasn't going to conduct any more experiments lol. (I also learned what a covert contract was.) It wasn't worth it and any damage it caused to the relationship. You can't keep wishing blood from a stone, you know? All I can do is be honest with my H and hope he is in the right mental space to respond to it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Well, I am on strike right now from being honest because every time I've been honest in the last 2 years I've been met with "SO YOU THINK I SUCK IN BED WELL FINE THEN WE WON'T EVER HAVE SEX EVER AGAIN AS LONG AS WE LIVE" attitude. I am perfectly happy to resign myself to no sex with him ever again if that's what he decides for real.

There is even a tiny part of me that almost wishes he'd cheat again and I could kick him out. Sometimes. not very often, and just for a millisecond. That shows right there that I am pretty much at my wits end, if I think about it. Which I don't, really, more than a couple of times a week. I just go to bed and sleep and wake up and go to work and don't worry about it, really.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, I am on strike right now from being honest because every time I've been honest in the last 2 years I've been met with "SO YOU THINK I SUCK IN BED WELL FINE THEN WE WON'T EVER HAVE SEX EVER AGAIN AS LONG AS WE LIVE" attitude. I am perfectly happy to resign myself to no sex with him ever again if that's what he decides for real.
> 
> There is even a tiny part of me that almost wishes he'd cheat again and I could kick him out. Sometimes. not very often, and just for a millisecond. That shows right there that I am pretty much at my wits end, if I think about it. Which I don't, really, more than a couple of times a week. I just go to bed and sleep and wake up and go to work and don't worry about it, really.


I don't know your back story, and definitely didn't know there was cheating involved and I feel like that adds a whole other layer of complication to things.  

I can't say I blame you for being at your wits end - and I can tell you that I've been frustrated and downright angry before about this stuff - so I get it. 

Years ago during the time that I mentioned, I had a lot of anger. Over time I have mellowed considerably. I also had some health problems pop up during that time, and some other tragedies have happened in our life, that have put things into perspective for me. If I step back from my marriage at a micro level and look at the macro level, I see way more GOOD things to be happy about than bad things to be upset about. And there are some truly outstanding moments that I've experienced with my H that are forever etched into my mind that showed me his true character and really put a spotlight on why I know he is my match, and how much he adds to my life. 

Sometimes when I am angry with him, I consciously put space between us for a day or so, and I meditate on those moments that he showed me who he really was and how good it was. I usually find that my anger fades quickly. 

I can see how that might not be the case for other marriages. Sometimes pulling back and looking at the macro level actually proves that the relationship is more bad than good.  

I just like to do a gut check every so often, pull myself out of the weeds and make sure that I am seeing the whole picture. I might not like what I see, but I like to be as objective as possible and try to make sure I am forging a path ahead that is positive and productive. Sometimes that means changing course from the current path you are on. :/

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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> If I step back from my marriage at a micro level and look at the macro level, I see way more GOOD things to be happy about than bad things to be upset about.


I do too, to be quite honest. That's why I said early on in this thread that this particular problem isn't one that I am considering ending the marriage over.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> So - being totally honest, I feel like I've tried to have this conversation with him before and it didn't go well. He doesn't understand these statements and if I say I want our sex to "not be goal oriented" then he thinks it means he shouldn't have an O either; and then he freaks a bit because he doesn't know how to make sure he DOESN'T have one. And when I tell him I don't care about that at all, we go round in circles.
> 
> And once I get to talking strategy with him in some drawn out conversation, honestly, for me the moment has passed and I'm just not interested at all. If you get any other answer to the above except for "OK", it kind of kills the mood for me.
> 
> ...


Had to laugh when i read the bolded 

Obviously these kinds of conversations (regarding strategy) are better done "outside" of the sex window because it's true, they are too "real" and definitely *not* a turn on.
There must be ways where you can teach your brain to relax and let go. (Yoga/Meditation?) Seems it's psychosomatic (if it works better during holidays).

Yes, my wife also doesn't like to be touched a lot (for no "purpose"). So cuddling and falling asleep in each others arms is something I always thought they made up in movies to piss me off...

(PS: Still think that making it clear to your husband that you don't *need* him to make you come, every time, nor that it reflects badly on him, is a good place to start to relief that mountain of pressure off of you both).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ellis,
I have tried really hard to separate what I like/dislike from what is true. It is a difficult and worthwhile exercise. Much as I dislike it - the need for sex - creates a dynamic - that often requires intentional management.

For instance - on my side of the world - is recognition that the raw physicality is better for me than for M2. That's just true. I wish it weren't. But it is. And I've always acknowledged that. 

So: Why - is - sex - fairly easy for us? 

It isn't my 11" tool - don't have one. Or some magical sexual technique. Don't have that either. I am merely reinforcing the point: 
The raw physicality is better for me than for M2. 

So - I am just just thinking (writing) out loud here - why does M2 make the effort to be such a great sexual partner? 

Part of it is pride. I understand and relate to that. If someone asked me: Are you a great partner OVERALL? I would say: yes

And if prompted would explain why. Where sex is concerned I would say: 
Pretty wide comfort zone where frequency is concerned 
Pretty wide comfort zone on variety/tone
Very determined to make it a good experience for my partner
Prefer/encourage transparency 

That said if someone asked me to describe M2 - sexually - I would just say: She is in a different league than I am, she is a one percenter. 

Because that's true. If someone asked me if I considered myself a 'one percenter' I would just laugh loudly while shaking my head no. That isn't about effort, it's about aptitude.

Back to what makes M2 such a killer partner. 
Pride - she likes being a one percenter - it's an ego thing
Love - she definitely loves me and as part of that wants to please
Power - this part is hardest to explain - M2 has the desire to be 'in control' - and likely believes (correctly so) that having a strong physical connection amplifies all that other good stuff she does

I could tell you - what I could do - if M2 took me for granted in terms of frequency. 

First I'd start with humor and say: Are you slowly turning into one of 'THOSE WOMEN'? (those women - refer to spouses who are lazy/bad at sex and therefore bad wives - this is actually M2's term - not mine). 

And then if nothing changed, I would just ask a broader question which is: Are you losing your desire to please me?

For me - that question really means: are you falling out of love with me?




EllisRedding said:


> It is funny how if a guy says that the physical aspect of their relationship helps to strengthen the emotional connection with his SO, some try to spin it to being emotionally dependent. If anything, you could argue the opposite, otherwise the physical aspect wouldn't matter as long as the guy is being told he is a good boy ...
> 
> It is important to add too when it comes to the word "dependent", I would guess most of us are dependent on our SO in one way or the other in a relationship. It is going to vary of course from one relationship to the next, but seems like a negative connotation keeps getting applied to this word ... What is important is that hopefully each person understands not only their needs, but their SOs needs as well, the areas where they may be dependent on each other, and work towards a common goal.
> 
> Also, got a real chuckle out of the bolded :grin2:


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I think this is the biggest misunderstanding men have about women and sex.
> 
> What Men Think About Sex vs. Reality | The Huffington Post
> 
> ...


Nothing turn me on more than when my husband just states what he wants sexually and then has full expectation that I'll comply . . . except for when he doesn't even bother stating what he wants before he takes it. 

I don't really like having a choice when it comes to our sex life. (I'm someone who can't turn off my head easily, and if I've got alternatives and choices, my mind goes into overdrive.) Makes sex pretty zero stress and oh so uncomplicated. Plus it just turns me on to no end. I long ago left go of my hang ups about that. 

(No husbands, I'm not advocating for you to just give this a whirl with your wives without communicating about it with them in great detail and getting their consent first.)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I think this is the biggest misunderstanding men have about women and sex.
> 
> What Men Think About Sex vs. Reality | The Huffington Post
> 
> ...


Yep, that's definitely the case over here and I discovered it by chance more than smarts...The confusing thing is that you do hear a lot of complaints regarding how little "affection" the wife is getting or how bad it is to be inconsiderate or selfish so you'd assume it would apply across the board. (Though it is also not as simple as that: for best results you have to prove that you are being considerate, by _playing_ inconsiderate...)
This may also have the added benefit for women who find it harder to O (by diverting the spotlight away from them).


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> First I'd start with humor and say: Are you slowly turning into one of 'THOSE WOMEN'? (those women - refer to spouses who are lazy/bad at sex and therefore bad wives - this is actually M2's term - not mine).
> 
> And then if nothing changed, I would just ask a broader question which is: Are you losing your desire to please me?
> 
> For me - that question really means: are you falling out of love with me?


And what if the spoken or unspoken answer to either of these questions was 'yes'?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> And what if the spoken or unspoken answer to either of these questions was 'yes'?


Ouch.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> And then if nothing changed, I would just ask a broader question which is: Are you losing your desire to please me?
> 
> For me - that question really means: are you falling out of love with me?


Never thought of it that way, MEM, but you are right. Sums it up pretty well.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Ouch.


Feeling kind of dark today. Is it showing?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Feeling kind of dark today. Is it showing?


I'm really sorry you think your wife's answers to both might be Yes, Fozzy.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> Still may not hurt to try.


No. Wrong. Of course it hurts to try and fail. If trying and failing did not hurt, many of us would continue trying for longer.




jld said:


> Do you know any of this for sure? Or is this your interpretation of what you saw/heard/felt?


Yes, I know this for sure. We spent 8 years in MC and ST. Please do not condescend toward me that I am too weak of too foolish to have tried, I spent 8 years trying. And paying for weekly sessions. And pouring my heart out. And being told to pound sand.





jld said:


> This is so unhealthy, so limiting to your own happiness as well as your wife's, Holding. Really enough to go back to counseling to discuss, imo.


There is nothing to discuss. I am old. I am tired. I am not interested in exercising enough to get into good enough shape to have the kind of sex I wanted to have 10 or 20 years ago. And having less rigorous sex just makes me feel inadequate. Yes, maybe if I went for massive a mounts of therapy for me to improve my self-esteem I might be able to motivate myself to embark on the program that would enable me to have vigorous sex with my wife. But long before I was capable of having frequent sex with her, I would file for divorce. I am not going to offer the better version of myself to her. She does not deserve it. She gets the tired broken down version of me. If there is ever a fit energetic version of me (no, I do not imagine that version will ever come into being), that would go to someone else.

As I have said many times, I am not taking my revenge by leaving her. The divorce laws ensure that any divorce would be to her benefit. No, I am taking my revenge by ensuring that the version of me she gets to stay with is a tired broken version of me. If she wants a healthy partner, then SHE needs to file for divorce. She needs to tell our kids that she is divorcing me. She needs to tell them that I was willing to stay married to her despite the complete absence of sex, but that she wanted to leave because she felt guilty for having denied me for so long. She will never bring herself to have that conversation with them.

I am not cutting off my nose to spite my face. I am cutting off my nose because she is the one who has to look at the disgusting disfigurement. As long as I do not look in the mirror, cutting off my nose costs me nothing. Yes, it hurts. But not as much as did 5 years of sexless marriage and 8 years of MC and ST when I was younger and healthier and more virile and lusting. These days it hurts me hardly at all to do without sex. Knowing that it causes her to feel guilty is recompense enough.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> And what if the spoken or unspoken answer to either of these questions was 'yes'?


If honestly stated without an intention to cause hurt, then fine. Beats the head scratching and solitary navel gazing.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I knew he was sending EXTREMELY subtle signals at one point but since I ignored them he never pursued the matter. I guess I'm not worth the extra effort. I am just wondering how long he's going to continue without sex. Surely at SOME point he'll actually come out and SAY something???????


Bzzz. Nope. Sorry. Thank you for playing. We have lovely parting gifts for you.

Waiting for him to initiate sex is holding your breath and waiting for him to run out of air. Hurts you much more than it hurts him.

If you are going to "deprive" him or "wait him out", do not do it with sex. That won't work. Instead, deprive him of something he wants and needs more than you do. Time. Conversation. Admiration. Respect.

Do not take from him what you want most from him. Take away what he wants most from you.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I don't know how Alex's wife responds on vacation, but as a LD/ND female I always responded much better on our vacations because my day-to-day stress was absent. I needed not to have work or home distractions in order to focus.


That is when I knew it was hopeless. We were in MC. Wife complained that she was exhausted and touched out from caring for 2 little kids at home. We went on vacation for 10 days without the kids. The Mc begged her to have sex with me. Nope, did not happen. Should have divorced her when we flew home.
@alexm, if you guys have lots of sex while on vacation without the kids, there is hope that when you are empty nesters your patience will be rewarded and you guys will have lots of sex. If there is little or no sex while on vacation without the kids, then abandon hope.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG I HATE THIS. My husband does this ALL THE TIME. Like, he will go to bed before me and turn off the light. So when I come to bed the room is dark. That is supposed to be him 'initiating'. WTF???
> 
> We had zero sex this past weekend. I knew he was sending EXTREMELY subtle signals at one point but since I ignored them he never pursued the matter. I guess I'm not worth the extra effort. I am just wondering how long he's going to continue without sex. Surely at SOME point he'll actually come out and SAY something???????


I suspect you'll be waiting for a very long time. Sounds like he is an extremely bad communicator, and he's not likely to magically develop those skills.

One thing I've learned over the years is that you can't expect people to be or do other than what they are. It's just setting yourself up for disappointment. You can try all you want to take responsibility for them, but if they are determined to shoot themselves in the foot, then that's exactly what they're going to do. Doesn't matter in the slightest how obvious it is to anyone else that there might be a better way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> No. Wrong. Of course it hurts to try and fail. If trying and failing did not hurt, many of us would continue trying for longer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your quote the other day about drinking poison hoping the other person will die is right on, holding.

Well, I do not know what to tell you. I just know I could not live with all that negativity.

Do you have any joy in your life?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

neuklas said:


> If honestly stated without an intention to cause hurt, then fine. Beats the head scratching and solitary navel gazing.


Welcome back, @neuklas.

How are things?


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

Want to be free of the pain, the hurt, the self-doubt? Simply let go of the rope. Let it go. You'll be fine. You don't need to cling to the rope. For you can swim. And swim quite well and happily in fact, and have a lovely afternoon. 

Now, just watch what happens when you prove (cheerfully and without spite) you don't need their rope. All of the sudden, they want your rope, which is what you wanted in the first place. 

But remember, with great power, comes responsibility. 

Good on you Alex. Pulling for you -


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Welcome back, @neuklas.
> 
> How are things?


Fair to middlin' I reckon.

How's life at TAM?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

SSDD.

The faces change, but the stories are pretty much the same.

Yet I enjoy the folks here just the same.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> No. Wrong. Of course it hurts to try and fail. If trying and failing did not hurt, many of us would continue trying for longer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know your story except for what you shared here. This makes me hurt for you. Just....why? It seems like so much effort to be that vindictive day after day. Does revenge really feel that good? That's so much anger to hold onto. You only get one life. Why spend it with her? 

ETA - I am not trying to be judgmental btw. I'm genuinely curious and a bit naive, having never stayed in a relationship that went that far south. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> Your quote the other day about drinking poison hoping the other person will die is right on, holding.


Yup. Not my first rodeo @jld.



jld said:


> Well, I do not know what to tell you. I just know I could not live with all that negativity.


Most could not. I take pride in being able to tolerate more negativity than most. That is why I maximize my negativity and refuse to even attempt to improve my life.



jld said:


> Do you have any joy in your life?


No. Posting on TAM is the best part of my day. My kids live 1000 miles away. So do my parents. One kid is moving 3000 miles away in June. I have no friends.

All I have is H2. I make sure I am attentive to her so she would never choose to leave me. It is like golden handcuffs. You know it isn't good for you, but you can't bear to give them up. I am sick and twisted. But I am really really good at making sick and twisted seem like a good deal.

But hey, all is fair in love and war. She made marrying her seem like a good deal. She wanted it badly. I am giving her what she asked for. Until death do us part. Not my fault if it turns out not to be what she imagined. After all, hasn't been what I imagined either.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am sick and twisted.


I am really sorry, Holding, but I have to agree. And what is sad is that I really do not think it has to be this way. 

You are in a prison of your own making. And (with the help of a therapist) you could free yourself.

Forgiveness is powerful, Holding. It could change your life, and hers.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Yup. Not my first rodeo @jld.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is nothing wrong with some black humor hyperbole when the catharsis of writing or thinking it keeps you sane. 

When you're risking it becoming your state of being, it's time to reevaluate. There are no prizes for being a martyr in your own mind and your mind only, and the apology you may or may not get on your deathbed probably won't be worth it. 

Hang in there brother.

It's baseball season and almost mint julip season. Lots of stuff to look forward to.

Alex - question. What do you think would have happened if you had not gotten back in bed that morning, but instead, went about your day doing something you wanted to do for yourself, but previously had put off? I'm curious.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

neuklas said:


> If honestly stated without an intention to cause hurt, then fine. Beats the head scratching and solitary navel gazing.


One should have developed​ sufficient perceptive abilities with their spouse so there would be little need to be told such unfortunate news directly, whether in an honest respectful manner as indicated above, or otherwise.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

john117 said:


> One should have developed​ sufficient perceptive abilities with their spouse so there would be little need to be told such unfortunate news directly, whether in an honest respectful manner as indicated above, or otherwise.


Truly helpful.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> This makes me hurt for you.


Don't bother. I am choosing this. Eyes wide open.

The person you should hurt for is my wife. She is the one who was raped. She is the one whose sexuality was torn from her and brutalized. She is the one who sought only to protect herself from pain. She is the one who made innocent mistakes.

You could have hurt for me for the first 13 or maybe 20 years of our marriage. When I too was innocent. When I too was hurting from something that someone else imposed on me. when I too was a victim. I am victim no more.



kag123 said:


> Just....why? It seems like so much effort to be that vindictive day after day.


When you are the sole breadwinner and wife is SAHM mom and marriage lasts 20+ years, in my state she gets permanent (lifetime) alimony. I am not giving away half my income and wealth to go in search of another woman who would treat me better. That woman does not exist - because no decent woman wants a bitter resentful broken man like me. Once you give in to the dark side. it doesn't take much effort to keep the game going.

That is why I am here. To warn HDs. Do not think it gets better with time. Do not hold onto hope if the odds are against you. It gets worse. It can break you. Leave before you are broken. there are worse things than not having sex. There is not having sex because you desire to punish your spouse more than you desire to enjoy time with your spouse. Get out before you lose yourself.



kag123 said:


> Does revenge really feel that good?


Yes, actually, it does. Not in an objective / absolute sense. But in comparison to wanting your spouse and needing your spouse and getting kicked in the teeth over and over for doing so? Yes, it feels much better. Does rejecting your spouse feel better than being rejected? Yes, absolutely. Does having power and control feel better than being subject to your partner's whims and caprices? Yes, absolutely. Does hitting yourself in the head with a hammer feel good? No. But it feels great when you stop. And you get to decide when to stop.

After 23 years of her telling me "no", the 2 times I got to tell her "no" during 2016 were priceless. Now she gives signals that she would be willing to consent. For 23 years I lived for / was desperate for those signals. Now I take my joy in ignoring them. Just as she ignored my needs for so long. Does it feel good to ignore her signals? Yes, it feels delicious.



kag123 said:


> That's so much anger to hold onto. You only get one life. Why spend it with her?


She is the mother of my children.
She is a competent and caring co-parent.
She is a pleasant dinner companion.
She is a pleasant travel companion.
She has a good heart and cares about her friends. Since I gave up trying to have sex with her, that caring extends to me as well.
She is entitled to permanent alimony and half my wealth and that is more valuable to me than my freedom.



kag123 said:


> ETA - I am not trying to be judgmental btw. I'm genuinely curious and a bit naive, having never stayed in a relationship that went that far south.


I was naive when we got married. I was naive when we did not have much sex on our honeymoon. I was naive when we did not have much sex during our first year of marriage. I was naive when we did not have sex on our vacation together after our second child was born.

I am no longer naive. I stay as a matter of choice. I had a wonderful birthday weekend. H2 did not begrudge me spending it with my parents and sister who were visiting. She accompanied us which was nice of her. We did not have sex - which in past years would have thrown me down into the pit of despair. Our relationship was much farther "south" years ago when we stopped MC (because it was pointless). It was farther "south" when we were fighting. Now there is no fighting. Now she appreciates me. Now she realizes that I meant to be faithful until death do us part. 

She always desperately wanted a man who would stay without pressuring her for sex. Now she has that man. It hasn't worked out exactly as she planned. But she will never admit that she aimed for the wrong goal. She she will continue to argue and act as if she is getting exactly what she always wanted. Her pride will allow her nothing else.

No, it doesn't take much effort. I simply let her be her.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> @alexm, when you are on holiday together (2 of you): what does your sex life look like? (don't send me pictures!


It's better, but isn't it better for everyone?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ReturntoZero said:


> Truly helpful.


A lawyer never asks a question they don't have the answer to. Extrapolate to "husband" or "wife" as an exercise.

I have been married for 35 years to someone who should have their picture in the inside jacket cover of the DSM-V. She has surprised me (and in a positive way) exactly once.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> You are in a prison of your own making. And (with the help of a therapist) you could free yourself.


Yes, exactly. But that is the point. It is of MY own making. And that is all that matters to me. I tried to build a marriage and life that was joint. That was mutual. I got rejected far too often. Not just sexually, but also financially when I complained about the lack of sex. Now I am in the place I created.  I do not want to free myself. My only desire is to convince H2 to stay with me here. Just as she convinced me to marry her.



jld said:


> Forgiveness is powerful, Holding. It could change your life, and hers.


So is resentment. So is revenge. I am not looking to change my life. Change can be for the worse as well as the better. I am looking to chain both of us to this reality. So far I am succeeding. As I never succeeding in enticing / inspiring her to desire me. Do not ask me to give up this success in hope of achieving another. I will never take that dare.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Don't bother. I am choosing this. Eyes wide open.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for humoring me and answering. I now understand your username. 😉

Regarding the bolded above: are you sure about that? 

It sounds like maybe it worked out exactly like she wanted it? 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

alexm said:


> It's better, but isn't it better for everyone?


NO. We had several vacation just the 2 of us with no kids and had no sex. Drove our MCs crazy. We eventually stopped MC when our MC fired us because it was clear there was no hope for us resolving this.

@alexm: if you have more sex on vacation, there IS hope for you. Have patience. When the kids are out of the house, you will have a second honeymoon. Endless. Years long. Your job is to husband your love for her until that day arrives. Do not give in to frustration or resentment. Do not allow the devil to poison your mind against your wife. Guard your love for her zealously and jealously. Know with certainty that your efforts will be rewarded in time. Hold has spoken. Woe to those who disdain this prophesy!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Do you feel like you can have these conversations with her without her (or you) getting defensive? How is the emotional trust between the two of you?


Truthfully, no. I am anything but defensive, and she recognizes this. She is the opposite, unfortunately (and also recognizes this...). It often comes down to her not feeling adequate enough, sadly. Doesn't matter what I say, I can't allay those fears.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yes, unresolved, ongoing stress is a common libido killer for women (can be for men, too, but it often seems to impact a woman's drive quicker.)
> 
> Alex, is your wife "wound tight" would you say? Does she have trouble unwinding or relaxing in other areas besides sex? What does she typically do to cope with stress, and is she good at mitigating its effects on her health? (does stress prevent her from sleeping well, eating well, exercising, etc? Is it something she regularly names as a reason for not taking care of herself?)
> 
> Managing stress and coping with stress is a skill that does not come easily to some people. But it can be learned. And once stress levels are back at a healthier level, then more emotional and mental resources are available for the marriage. AND for focusing on one's general health.


She's not wound tight at all, no.

My ex wife was, and unwound by having sex with me :laugh:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> Alex, do you think you may have underlying insecurity because of your first wife's leaving you? And you are seeking security in your current wife's willingness to have spontaneous sex with you? That would show you that you are safe with her, that she will not leave you?
> 
> Just throwing that out there.


That is a brilliant observation, and not one that I actually thought of.

My knee-jerk reaction is no. I'm actually not concerned about her leaving me, TBH. She's very happy with what we have, and this is the most stable relationship she's ever been in. She loves me, first of all, and I've (so far) provided her with pretty much everything she needs, and hasn't had previously. I feel quite secure, and I believe she does, too.

That doesn't mean you're wrong, however. The subconscious mind is quite powerful.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Thanks for humoring me and answering. I now understand your username. ��


Username started on another forum. At the time it was a multiple entendre. Holding onto my penis because I was not having sex and wanted to and was masturbating instead. Holding onto my love for H2. Holding onto a marriage I wasn't sure I wanted.

Now I am holding onto my resentment. This is by far the easiest task.



kag123 said:


> Regarding the bolded above: are you sure about that?
> 
> It sounds like maybe it worked out exactly like she wanted it?


Yes, I am sure. No, it did not work out as she wanted. She thought that her rationing sex would inspire me to greater efforts to woo her. She did not realize it would break me. She did not realize I would lose all ambition. She did not realize I would stop trying. She did not realize I would take more joy from spurning her than from earning her consent.

No, she did not get everything she wanted. She got a man who would be faithful and true. She got a man who would care for her in sickness and in health. She did not realize the price that I would pay or that she would pay to learn the truth. I am confident that if she had it all to do again, she would marry me but treat me differently. I would make very different choices. It must hurt her to the core to realize this, and feel compelled to act as if she doesn't. That is the justice I have exacted from her. As I said, hurt for her, not for me.

@alexm: Do not feed or give in to your insecurity. Your wife loves you and desires you. Not in the same way you desire her, but deeply and truly. Give her time. Raise your children together. Let her live the life she wants while the kids are home. You will be rewarded mightily when the kids are gone and your wife is free to shower her affection on you.

I know it hurts to live as you do. I am not trying to minimize your pain. I am suggesting that you cope with the pain in ways that do not damage your marriage. Because you have a marriage worth preserving.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG I HATE THIS. My husband does this ALL THE TIME. Like, he will go to bed before me and turn off the light. So when I come to bed the room is dark. That is supposed to be him 'initiating'. WTF???
> 
> We had zero sex this past weekend. I knew he was sending EXTREMELY subtle signals at one point but since I ignored them he never pursued the matter. I guess I'm not worth the extra effort. I am just wondering how long he's going to continue without sex. Surely at SOME point he'll actually come out and SAY something???????


Lol, I have the same issue.

When I've said here that my wife 'initiates', this is what I mean. It's still up to me.

Some folks will say 'that's just the way he/she is, be thankful', but like you, I HATE this. My wife can be so forceful in virtually every other aspect of life, why not this one?

People like to be pursued - man or woman. This isn't pursuit.

Oh, and the worst (and Hope, you may relate to this) - when they do these things, we don't bite, and then they say "I TRIED on Saturday, but you weren't interested!" or "What do you mean I don't initiate?" Ugh!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Openminded said:


> I don't know how Alex's wife responds on vacation, but as a LD/ND female I always responded much better on our vacations because my day-to-day stress was absent. I needed not to have work or home distractions in order to focus.
> 
> When you're LD/ND, things usually need to align very well and vacations are a great time for that.


All this talk of vacation sex is well and good, but the reality is that none of us live on vacation.

Most of us can count on more or better sex while on vacation - regardless of how much or how little we're having.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@alexm: Once the kids leave home, every day is vacation. I know it seems a long way off and must time is wasted between now and then, but golden years with the mother of your children is precious. Fight for that joy.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

neuklas said:


> Alex - question. What do you think would have happened if you had not gotten back in bed that morning, but instead, went about your day doing something you wanted to do for yourself, but previously had put off? I'm curious.


Good question - I don't know.

I suspect nothing, TBH.

Though I'm quite certain my getting back into bed and engaging in non-sexual intimacy had an effect on her - almost as much as not initiating sex  I think I confused her, and that made her moderately upset :surprise:


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

alexm said:


> Good question - I don't know.
> 
> I suspect nothing, TBH.
> 
> Though I'm quite certain my getting back into bed and engaging in non-sexual intimacy had an effect on her - almost as much as not initiating sex  I think I confused her, and that made her moderately upset :surprise:


Another question then - was any part of your decision to get back into bed for non-sexual intimacy based on the thought, "if I do this, maybe she will initiate."

It's ok if the answer is some. Just be aware of it. There is a difference between cheerful indifference and a covert contract, that's all I'm saying. And if part of your thinking was, "this will throw her for a loop' wonder what will happen" then you're too close to a covert contract in my opinion.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

alexm said:


> All this talk of vacation sex is well and good, but the reality is that none of us live on vacation.
> 
> Most of us can count on more or better sex while on vacation - regardless of how much or how little we're having.


Real life -- and everything that goes with it -- very easily gets in the way of sex when you're LD/ND. That's why it's often scheduled. The problem is that the HD partner usually gets tired of the schedule while the LD/ND partner likes the schedule and often isn't willing to compromise any more than they feel they already have. Where does that leave the HD partner who doesn't want to end the marriage over sex? Stuck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,

If M2 seemed to be falling out of love with me....

First: I'd ask if I was doing/not doing stuff - causing that outcome. And I would listen close to what I heard. If it didn't make sense to me - on to step (2).
Second: I'd ask if there was somebody else she'd rather be with. 

This sort of did happen once - luckily my view is that ALL life partners should get one 'get out of jail free' card. 

When it happened - M2 actually said these words verbatim: I need space

Yeah yeah. I know. We might all prefer different brands of breakfast cereal - but - where core stuff is concerned - us humans are much more alike than different. So umm - when - practicing catholic M2 said she needed space - I didn't see it for what it was. She was in love/lust with a guy who worked for her. 

Thing is - this is where JLD's theme about being needy - comes into the picture. I have some serious flaws - neediness just isn't one of them. So when M2 asked for space - I gave it to her without hesitation. I didn't ask why, didn't ask any questions at all. Just took her at her word and started visiting (male) friends and family over the weekends. 

Maybe six weeks in - during one of those trips - she said: I miss you. 

And I said: Thank you for not saying that - until you meant it. I miss you too. 

By the way - shrugging - M2 doesn't believe in the concept of a single 'get out of jail free' card. She FIRMLY believes in castration, followed by a SLOW crucifixion as the penalty for betrayal. So if I did to her - what she did to me - I'd have these big holes in my hands and feet - and no balls. 

Me, I see it different. We hired a lovable guy and she fell in lust/love with him for a while. It wasn't a choice - just an outcome. I had and have no desire for vengeance. 

And that's ok - marriages are based on love not symmetry. I never once said: If I had ****ing done this to you..... blah blah you are such a damn hypocrite. Not once. Symmetry exists in fairy tales not real life. 








Fozzy said:


> And what if the spoken or unspoken answer to either of these questions was 'yes'?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And - this all ties to the OP - why I'm doing it. 

Maybe 2 years of M2 not loving me very much. So - the bad news was I was in denial about the OM - but - the good news was I wasn't needy. Not being funny about that. 

I'd say the emotional temp went from a nice solid 80 - down to 50. And I honestly just thought that - this was the winter of our marriage and that I just needed to be patient. Really. She kept up our sexual routine but didn't talk to me much. It was a long, cold winter. 

I refused to crowd her. I knew that would make it worse. 

In his own way - without meaning to - I would wager that Alex crowds A2 a little. I have no direct evidence of this - but the indirects point me that way. This is a type of what JLD calls neediness. And while subtle - it kills desire. 





Fozzy said:


> And what if the spoken or unspoken answer to either of these questions was 'yes'?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> It's better, but isn't it better for everyone?




Nope, apparently not.
Heavy stuff @Holdingontoit. Not sure I'm equipped to give advice here except to say that I'm sorry it has come to this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> And that's ok - *marriages are based on love not symmetry*. I never once said: If I had ****ing done this to you..... blah blah you are such a damn hypocrite. Not once. * Symmetry exists in fairy tales not real life*.


Another very wise observation, MEM. Could be very freeing, if we can hear it. 

Accepting with gratitude what our partners are able to give . . . rather than nursing resentment over what we think we deserve, that they may just not be capable of . . . or not with a full heart.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

neuklas said:


> Another question then - was any part of your decision to get back into bed for non-sexual intimacy based on the thought, "if I do this, maybe she will initiate."
> 
> It's ok if the answer is some. Just be aware of it. There is a difference between cheerful indifference and a covert contract, that's all I'm saying. And if part of your thinking was, "this will throw her for a loop' wonder what will happen" then you're too close to a covert contract in my opinion.


No, not at all. I think I covered this in the update post (though that was like 40 pages ago :surprise: )

The whole point of this thread is no more covert contracts or expectations.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> By the way - shrugging - M2 doesn't believe in the concept of a single 'get out of jail free' card. She FIRMLY believes in castration, followed by a SLOW crucifixion as the penalty for betrayal. So if I did to her - what she did to me - I'd have these big holes in my hands and feet - and no balls.


My ex wife "threatened" me numerous times over the years with similar outcomes should I even think of straying. Then she strayed. Amazing how some people are so desperately dependant on you... until they're not, and all bets are off.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> In his own way - without meaning to - I would wager that Alex crowds A2 a little. I have no direct evidence of this - but the indirects point me that way. This is a type of what JLD calls neediness. And while subtle - it kills desire.


There's little doubt that I do. Fact is, being self employed and covering a lot of the bases during the day, it seems like I'm always here.

When we first moved in together, I addressed this with her. I 'warned' her that it will seem like I'm always home. I'm asleep when she leaves for work - but I'm here. I'm busy with something when she gets home - but I'm here. Same with the kids - always here.

I don't crowd her when she's here - I give her her space, especially right after work. So does the older kid (who's at the stage where we really only see him when it's dinner time...). But it doesn't matter - she never comes home to an empty house. I do, so I get my peace and quiet and alone time.

She's rarely bothered about it, though. She's genuinely happy to see all of us, ask us how our days went, etc. On the odd occasion, it's clear she wants her space, so she goes and takes a long shower or folds laundry, and we leave her alone.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Another very wise observation, MEM. Could be very freeing, if we can hear it.
> 
> Accepting with gratitude what our partners are able to give . . . rather than nursing resentment over what we think we deserve, that they may just not be capable of . . . or not with a full heart.


How about the degree of assymetry?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> How about the degree of assymetry?


It is certainly up to each person what he or she will accept.

But when we are complaining about what our spouse is _not_ giving to us, we may be overlooking a lot of what they _are_ providing . . .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> There's little doubt that I do. Fact is, being self employed and covering a lot of the bases during the day, it seems like I'm always here.
> 
> When we first moved in together, I addressed this with her. I 'warned' her that it will seem like I'm always home. I'm asleep when she leaves for work - but I'm here. I'm busy with something when she gets home - but I'm here. Same with the kids - always here.
> 
> ...


I don't think that is what MEM meant by "crowding." I think he meant emotional crowding.

If you are feeling unsatisfied or resentful, it is unlikely she is not picking up on that in some way.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And vice versa.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> And vice versa.


Always looking for symmetry . . . Always unhappy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

@Holdingontoit: I might be wrong but I feel like you have a moral obligation, as a human being, to show these writings to your wife. All of it. She needs to know what's going on in your head/soul.
I have to admit I never read anything like this before and while I can sort of understand how something like this can come about, I cannot comprehend how this can be rationalized to become an acceptable situation.
It is in our nature to have the ability to love someone and get satisfaction/positive feedback from this. Something, sometime, obviously went very wrong. From your writing, it comes across as if everything that makes you human, has been replaced by pure resentment towards your wife and, perversely, that seems to be the only feeling that is producing any positive feedback currently for you. As I wrote before i feel this state of being can become addictive quickly if nothing is done about it (and I think it already has). Your relationship seems completely dysfunctional. If your wife is a completely dysfunctional person and there is nothing that she can do with the information (if you show her your writings), you need to let go. You will ruin whatever is left of yourself.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> I don't think that is what MEM meant by "crowding." I think he meant emotional crowding.
> 
> If you are feeling unsatisfied or resentful, it is unlikely she is not picking up on that in some way.


In that case, no. Not in a long while, anyway.

We've had our peaks and valleys. Prior to these issues popping up (let's say the first ~2 years together) - no crowding whatsoever. Then she disengaged, sexually, and I probably DID crowd her for a little while during this period. Most people would, I imagine, due to somewhat sudden lack of engagement in an important area.

Then I backed off and really only addressed the issue every few months or so. Again, probably typical. Keep it inside until you can't any more.

The past ~year or so - definite nope.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> My ex wife "threatened" me numerous times over the years with similar outcomes should I even think of straying. Then she strayed. Amazing how some people are so desperately dependant on you... until they're not, and all bets are off.


Hypocrisy is human nature.

Btw I noticed you haven't really answered the question about vacation sex ;-)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> In that case, no. Not in a long while, anyway.
> 
> We've had our peaks and valleys. Prior to these issues popping up (let's say the first ~2 years together) - no crowding whatsoever. Then she disengaged, sexually, and I probably DID crowd her for a little while during this period. Most people would, I imagine, due to somewhat sudden lack of engagement in an important area.
> 
> ...


Have you ever spoken to her *why* she disengaged back then? It might be one piece of the puzzle why you could currently be overly sensitive. As I wrote, men's bodies remember stuff even if the mind doesn't. (At the risk of generalising) some women may find it difficult to relate to it and may not realise what longterm effects/consequences rejection can cause. I think they should teach this stuff in schools together with biology classes...Less couples would end up being miserable. On the face of it, it's an easy fix!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Hypocrisy is human nature.


Because we fear most what we understand in ourselves.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Hypocrisy is human nature.
> 
> Btw I noticed you haven't really answered the question about vacation sex ;-)


Yep.

When I started dating my wife, I made a conscious effort to not be untrusting of her in the slightest. What happened with my ex wife had nothing to do with her. I obviously learned what many red flags to look out for, but I didn't _look_ for them, if you know what I mean.

However, if my now-wife had said something like my ex wife had, I probably would have run, TBH. Not because it's some sort of red flag that she'd eventually cheat, but that it's controlling and dominating.

My ex wife drilled that into my head almost from day one. At the time, I thought nothing of it. After the marriage ended, some 14 years later, I realized that she had conditioned me right from the start, and that those words (and many others) only applied to her. There was a lot of hypocrisy coming out of that woman's mouth, so I learned to be wary of statements like that.

Hell, it was so bad that, after she had left for OM and I had started dating (several months later), she was jealous. A million questions, suddenly being super nice to me, stopping by the house unnanounced, stuff like that. She no longer had any perceived control over me and I had clearly moved on, and that didn't sit well with her - despite her having a boyfriend/partner at the time.

As soon as all of this dawned on her (took a while...) she turned mean, and we never saw each other again.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> @alexm, if you guys have lots of sex while on vacation without the kids, there is hope that when you are empty nesters your patience will be rewarded and you guys will have lots of sex. If there is little or no sex while on vacation without the kids, then abandon hope.


Although I understand the reasoning, it is risky to just wish away the years in hopes that things will get better, especially when there are many unknown variables that could come into play down the road.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Hypocrisy is human nature.
> 
> Btw I noticed you haven't really answered the question about vacation sex ;-)


I did, more than once  This has been a long thread with many replies, so it's easy to miss things.

Yes, sex is more free and easy during vacation, with or without kids. We went away for 10 or so days (no kids) in January, and we had sex 3 or 4 times.

What I had said in my replies to the question was that it's typically better for almost all couples, regardless of how much sex they're having or not having.

What I also said is that we don't live on vacation, so it's almost a moot point.

There's no doubt that the daily grind affects people's sex lives. I won't dispute that. As was said a few pages ago, the fact that sex while on vacation does increase, in my case, bodes well for when we're empty nesters.

I'm not discounting either of those statements in the slightest. But the reality is that I don't feel that I should have to wait it out for vacations or for the next 8-10 years to enjoy a more normal sex life. I'll be ~50 or so when this happens, possibly older. I may be dead, I may have ED, her drive may be zero, MY drive may be zero, there may be physical issues with either one of us that prevent good sex. There might be more stress - who knows?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> What I also said is that we don't live on vacation, so it's almost a moot point.


Definitely worth pointing out. It is great that a "normal" sex life can happen on vacation, but for most of us, life unfortunately is very little vacationing lol. What can happen as well, you look forward to an upcoming vacation (i.e. our sex life will get back on track during that period), which only causes you to further disregard the "non vacation" days leading up to it. I see the similar thing happen with my W. If she knows I am taking off a day from work in a week or so (which means we will get the house to ourselves), that pretty much means that no effort will be made leading up to it (which has burned us in the past since it appears there is a 50-68% chance when I take off from work a kid will end up home sick lol).


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

alexm said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > Hypocrisy is human nature.
> ...


I don't think sex 3 or 4 times during a kid free 10 day vacation fir people in their 40s is a lot...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I did, more than once  This has been a long thread with many replies, so it's easy to miss things.
> 
> Yes, sex is more free and easy during vacation, with or without kids. We went away for 10 or so days (no kids) in January, and we had sex 3 or 4 times.
> 
> ...


I think you may have misunderstood why I brought up the vacation sex. If the sex (and her attitude to it) feels "normal" to you during vacation, then the problem you have at home is not *her*, it's *life, her responsibilities, work, stress *etc. I have never suggested you wait it out and hope for the best, I suggest that it is fixable, if you communicate the importance of it to you, to her properly, without assuming there is *more *behind it than there really is.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I don't think sex 3 or 4 times during a kid free 10 day vacation fir people in their 40s is a lot...


Once again, his problem is not "frequency"...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> And that's ok - marriages are based on love not symmetry. I never once said: If I had ****ing done this to you..... blah blah you are such a damn hypocrite. Not once. Symmetry exists in fairy tales not real life.


These statements are not necessarily just about symmetry. 

I have used similar statements (minus the cursing and name calling) when F2 shows a lack of empathy in a situation in which it is clearly needed, and not just towards myself, but B11 and others.

"Would you be okay with (me, B11, others) doing that to you?"


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Always looking for symmetry . . . Always unhappy.


Is 90/10 symmetrical enough for you?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

And the thing about being empty-nesters at some point? You may be child-free then but all the other stresses of life (work, home, whatever) will still be there during the week. The "reasons" for limited sex tend to stay after the children leave. Sex increases for those who want it to increase when they become empty-nesters. Not so much for those who don't.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Because we fear most what we understand in ourselves.


For those who despise hypocrisy...if you want to really scramble your eggs, think about all of the times your partner has used that very thing to try to get you to accept the unacceptable.

F2 used to do it to me anytime she wanted something bad enough. She is a smart cookie, and for a lot of years, she ran rampant over me because I did not smell the manipulation. I just knew it made me mad and I could I not put a finger on why. 

It wasn't until I really learned about boundaries in 2014, and the use of the classic statements (I'm not okay with x, etc.) that I was able to put a stop to it. She tries this maybe once a year now.

In order to adequately enforce boundaries, one must accept there will be hypocrisy and a lack of symmetry.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Openminded said:


> And the thing about being empty-nesters at some point? You may be child-free then but all the other stresses of life (work, home, whatever) will still be there during the week. The "reasons" for limited sex tend to stay after the children leave. Sex increases for those who want it to increase when they become empty-nesters. Not so much for those who don't.


Especially when you factor in that by the time you become "empty nesters" you may have already drifted apart.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

In case it needs to be spelled out: communicating this need properly is likely to make her shift the importance of sex on the list of her priorities (if that is logistically possible, given her work schedule/kids etc) while understanding where she is coming from for Alex (initiating it once a week), is likely going to put his mind at rest that it is not some form of power play on her part.

The way I would go about it (if I was not really comfortable approaching my spouse point blank), I would forward articles or talk about articles regarding the importance of wanting to have sex with your partner (or any issue that Alexm feels is an issue associated with feeling the way he is feeling). Eventually she will figure out from the hints what it's about or it will open up the door for an honest conversation (which is really what is missing here). She will either be able to explain better why it is inconvenient for her to change things around to accommodate that need or change things around.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> And - this all ties to the OP - why I'm doing it.
> 
> Maybe 2 years of M2 not loving me very much. So - the bad news was I was in denial about the OM - but - the good news was I wasn't needy. Not being funny about that.
> 
> ...


Burning the midnight oil Mem? 

For all this time and discussion around neediness, I'm still not clear where the delineation is between "having needs" and "neediness".

I understand neediness is one of those "eye of the beholder" things. JLD seems to say that neediness = whininess. I agree whinging about something is pathetic and ridiculous, but there seem to be those that would also count stating your needs--or even having needs in the first place--as neediness. It would seem to go without saying that everyone has needs, but it appears that the moment you pursue getting those needs met, it's neediness. So your option is to stand their stoically and leave it to fate as to whether your needs are met or not? Realistically--how often is that going to work out?

So you pursue your own happiness--awesome. But not every need can be met in a gym or a massage parlor. You can fill 80% of that gap yourself, maybe (and probably should, if you can). But a person's need for emotional transparency is never going to be met by a personal trainer.

Perhaps it's just a matter of terminology. I think it's hard to have a meaningful discussion on things like this when we can't even agree on a common frame of reference.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Livvie said:


> I don't think sex 3 or 4 times during a kid free 10 day vacation fir people in their 40s is a lot...


IDK, that frequency would seem perfectly normal to me. There of course will be outliers on both sides, but I would guess statistically this would fall in the normal range.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Especially when you factor in that by the time you become "empty nesters" you may have already drifted apart.


Yes, that's always a possibility. Unfortunately.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I don't think sex 3 or 4 times during a kid free 10 day vacation fir people in their 40s is a lot...


Really? Cause I'm in my early thirties and I'm LD and I think that's a whole lot. 😯

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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think sex 3 or 4 times during a kid free 10 day vacation fir people in their 40s is a lot...
> ...


I guess couples are all different. It doesn't seem like a lot to ME for a 10 day vacation. I know there are posters here in their late 40s early fifties who have sex almost every day, and that's not on vacation. So people are all different...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Burning the midnight oil Mem?
> 
> For all this time and discussion around neediness, I'm still not clear where the delineation is between "having needs" and "neediness".
> 
> ...


Interesting point. 

Another issue in my marriage is this subject of needs. 

The real truth is, that I don't NEED my H for anything. Really. I married him because I enjoy being with him, but if he chose to leave today, I could live on without him just fine. We are both 100% self sufficient. It's like cupcakes. No one NEEDS cupcakes, but they do make life more enjoyable don't they? 

The only thing I can think of that he NEEDS me for, is sex, since we don't go outside the marriage for that. As the LD, I don't see sex as a NEED...I could go without it if I had to, and it wouldn't cause me much distress. 

That creates a bit of a power differential in our relationship, and I think it makes him feel...resentful? vulnerable? I don't know. Just guessing. 

I sometimes think about how it would be if the situation was reversed. If I did need him, but knew that he didn't need me. I think I would be frightened by that. I wouldn't want to know that the person I hitched my life to didn't need me at all. 



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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> The only thing I can think of that he NEEDS me for, is sex, since we don't go outside the marriage for that. As the LD, I don't see sex as a NEED...I could go without it if I had to, and it wouldn't cause me much distress.
> 
> That creates a bit of a power differential in our relationship, and I think it makes him feel...resentful? vulnerable? I don't know. Just guessing.


Just guessing? There's a prescription for that 😀


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

kag123 said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> Another issue in my marriage is this subject of needs.
> 
> ...




I'd say that marrying someone because you want to be with them IS a need- you need him to give something of himself to you (time, attention, companionship). My husband and I didn't need each other to live when we met but we WANTED to get married so we could meet each other's intimate needs: intimate conversation, affection, companionship, and sex. Sure, we could get by without it, but we didn't want to. And sex is a need that your husband could get met if you left tomorrow- but he wants to be with you to meet that need.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> Another issue in my marriage is this subject of needs.
> 
> ...


Sex, in and of itself, I don't believe to be a need that can be met exclusively in marriage (for some people). There's always cheating, open marriages and massage parlors.

I was thinking more about the emotional needs that often come packaged with sex, but can be separate sometimes as well. Companionship, trust, intimacy and the like. 

You'd be just fine without your husband, and I'd be just fine without my wife--because once you remove the relationship from the equation, you remove a subset of needs along with it.

A single person doesn't NEED trust and intimacy to be ok in life. But I'd argue a marriage does. And I'm not using the word "intimacy" as a substitute for sex. I'm using it to mean emotional connection. For some folks, regardless of drive--emotional intimacy can be affected either positively or negatively by their sex lives. It's not part and parcel of it, but they're not mutually exclusive, either.

For the other folks that see sex as completely separate---well, I envy you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> But long before I was capable of having frequent sex with her, I would file for divorce. I am not going to offer the better version of myself to her. *She does not deserve it.* She gets the tired broken down version of me. If there is ever a fit energetic version of me (no, I do not imagine that version will ever come into being), that would go to someone else.


LOVE that!

Somethings are more important than sex.

Like, keeping your self respect.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

:grin2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> :grin2:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSK4u_p2yVk


Laughs aside, is that really how it is?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't know if I'd count his desire for sex with you as a need. He does have the option of divorce and finding someone else. I see that in contrast to people who are in marriages where it would be extremely difficult to leave for financial reasons or other.

If you just view sex as one of the many things you both enjoy doing together its fine. He may enjoy it more than you, but there are probably other things you do together that you enjoy more than he does. As long as overall everyone is happy and no one is feeling coerced, I think its fine. 




kag123 said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> Another issue in my marriage is this subject of needs.
> 
> ...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Laughs aside, is that really how it is?


For some folks yes. I personally wouldn't poke the bear 5 nights in a row however.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> For some folks yes. I personally wouldn't poke the bear 5 nights in a row however.


I thought that was actually a really good move on his part.

I don't think I could resist that kind of confidence, anyway. Especially if it were combined with a good sense of humor, and some empathy.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I thought that was actually a really good move on his part.
> 
> I don't think I could resist that kind of confidence, anyway. Especially if it were combined with a good sense of humor, and some empathy.


That's good for "hypothetical guy" in a humorous video. For me, I wouldn't WANT to have sex with someone who continued to talk to me like that. Major turnoff.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> That's good for "hypothetical guy" in a humorous video. For me, I wouldn't WANT to have sex with someone who continued to talk to me like that. Major turnoff.


She does indeed not seem very nice. That is why I was asking if that was normal.

Maybe some of you guys should have married nicer gals?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> @alexm: Once the kids leave home, every day is vacation. I know it seems a long way off and must time is wasted between now and then, but golden years with the mother of your children is precious. Fight for that joy.


Sorry, doesn't happen. This does:



Openminded said:


> You may be child-free then but all the other stresses of life (work, home, whatever) will still be there during the week. The "reasons" for limited sex tend to stay after the children leave. Sex increases for those who want it to increase when they become empty-nesters. *Not so much for those who don't*.


I used to think that when the kids left home things would get better. Boy was I wrong. Since the hysterical bonding stage in 2011-2012, things have just gone steadily downhill in the bedroom. We've been totally alone in the house since Saturday afternoon, and he hasn't even hinted that sex should be on the menu (other than brushing my panties with his hand once Sunday morning as I was waking up, which startled me so I jumped a bit, which he assumed of course meant I wasn't into sex.)

I know perfectly well that I should deprive him of something he WANTS and not sex if I want to be a *****, but I'm not really into that. I've never believed sex should be used as a weapon - in our relationship he is FAR more likely to do so than me. I see what I am doing as an experiment, but I know perfectly well many wouldn't. But many aren't me and him  I really want to see how long it takes for HIM to initiate a conversation about lack of bedroom activity. I have ALWAYS given in first before - ALWAYS - but this time, no. I am perfectly willing to go without sex for a month or three or even a year if that's what it takes, because he pretends nothing is wrong.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> The real truth is, that I don't NEED my H for anything. Really. I married him because I enjoy being with him, but if he chose to leave today, I could live on without him just fine.


Same



kag123 said:


> I sometimes think about how it would be if the situation was reversed. If I did need him, but knew that he didn't need me. I think I would be frightened by that. I wouldn't want to know that the person I hitched my life to didn't need me at all.


I've never thought of it before, but this is very true. My husband probably - very likely - feels this way. But he would never vocalize it, or admit it in MC or anything.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)




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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Sorry, doesn't happen. This does:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I assume you've already talked to him about his lack of initiating...what does he say?

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


>


I know, does not help right now.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> That's good for "hypothetical guy" in a humorous video. For me, I wouldn't WANT to have sex with someone who continued to talk to me like that. Major turnoff.


I've seen this video before, and other videos from this woman. She does a lot of "humor" videos, most of them are of her yelling at her "kids", not involving her husband. (To be fair? I have never actually seen kids in the videos so I assume she's just acting out these scenarios and that they aren't really happening as she is taping them )

She has this same type of demeanor in all the videos - and talks to her kids with the same voice. 

I think she thinks it's funny - and judging from how many likes and comments she gets I think a whole lot of other women think it's funny too. I personally think it's gross to act that way, even in pretend. I would hope a real husband would tell her to F off. Or at the very least stop initiating. 

I've never understood the whole dumb husband stereotype thing. Wives treating husbands like they are bumbling idiots or another one of the children is a peeve of mine. 

End rant! 

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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> I assume you've already talked to him about his lack of initiating...what does he say?


OMG SO many times.

He claims he DOES initiate. Because to him, staring at the back of my head while I read a book counts as 'initiating'. And yes I have told him that I want him to take my book and close it and demand sex. He apparently will NEVER do that.

All he hears when I try to talk about it is "OMG YOU ARE A HORRIBLE LOVER AND YOU SUCK IN BED AND SEX WITH YOU IS AWFUL AND YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING TO FIX IT OR I WILL DIVORCE YOU"

Last week I sent him an email outlining exactly that, capitals and all, and he sent me one back freaking out on me because of what was capitalized. He HADN'T EVEN READ the rest of the email, and he thought I was ACTUALLY SAYING THAT to him. 

I really am at my wits end.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> That's good for "hypothetical guy" in a humorous video. For me, I wouldn't WANT to have sex with someone who continued to talk to me like that. Major turnoff.


At least in the video as well, it is clear by her body language she wants no part.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> That's good for "hypothetical guy" in a humorous video. For me, I wouldn't WANT to have sex with someone who continued to talk to me like that. Major turnoff.


Her voice alone would turn me off.And her stupid excuses.And does she only own one tshirt.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Sorry, doesn't happen. This does:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hope, I think every person in your position tries this at some point. I don't recall a single instance where it's worked out well.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I've seen this video before, and other videos from this woman. She does a lot of "humor" videos, most of them are of her yelling at her "kids", not involving her husband. (To be fair? I have never actually seen kids in the videos so I assume she's just acting out these scenarios and that they aren't really happening as she is taping them )
> 
> She has this same type of demeanor in all the videos - and talks to her kids with the same voice.
> 
> ...


Thing is, I get the impression some men _like _women like that. They see them as a challenge.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG SO many times.
> 
> He claims he DOES initiate. Because to him, staring at the back of my head while I read a book counts as 'initiating'. And yes I have told him that I want him to take my book and close it and demand sex. He apparently will NEVER do that.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you need to be gentle with him. He seems pretty sensitive.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Hope, I think every person in your position tries this at some point. I don't recall a single instance where it's worked out well.


I guess that depends on what you consider to be 'well' 

I know this. Maybe I will give in again. Maybe I will have a good old fashioned freak out on him. Maybe I"ll even succeed in convincing him we need help. Maybe not. Maybe the whole thing will end up making me want a divorce. I have no idea. But right now, it's where I am at.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Sounds like you need to be gentle with him. He seems pretty sensitive.


I could be as gentle as a weightless feather and all he'd hear is how defective he is. It's a problem he has. Our MC told him he needs to work on it, and his response was to stop MC. That was in 2014.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I could be as gentle as a weightless feather and all he'd hear is how defective he is. It's a problem he has. Our MC told him he needs to work on it, and his response was to stop MC. That was in 2014.


Have you ever tried being relentlessly positive and nurturing with him, like doing that _Love Dare_?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Have you ever tried being relentlessly positive and nurturing with him, like doing that _Love Dare_?


Sorry, I'm his wife, not his mother. I tell him what I need, I have done so in a hundred different ways, in MC and while working through countless books and exercises. For a while it seemed to work, but he's regressed since 2014 and wants to pretend everything is fine. I refuse to coddle that attitude.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> I could be as gentle as a weightless feather and all he'd hear is how defective he is. It's a problem he has. Our MC told him he needs to work on it, and his response was to stop MC. That was in 2014.


If he can't even acknowledge the problems, there is pretty much no chance he will work towards fixing it. I think you could say that in general with any problem in a relationship. That is one of the things I have actually enjoyed with @kag123 posts where she does acknowledge the drive mismatch with her H, understands the problems it causes. Doesn't mean there is an easy solution, but can't work on something if you don't think it is a problem in the first place. Sucks you have to deal with that Hope, sure plenty folks here can relate.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> Laughs aside, is that really how it is?


Yes, in my house, that is how it used to be before I stopped asking. Should have installed a camera back then. We could have been an Internet sensation. Of course we would also be divorced. 

And I can assure you on my end there is no laughing involved. Not when H2 used to do that. And not now watching someone else do it. Even if it is fake and I know she is acting and not really how she is with her husband. Because that IS how H2 was with her husband.

This would not be a popular internet meme if it wasn't happening far too frequently IRL.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, in my house, that is how it used to be before I stopped asking.


Wow.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Laughs aside, is that really how it is?


No, I used to get far better excuses.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> That creates a bit of a power differential in our relationship, and I think it makes him feel...resentful? vulnerable? I don't know. Just guessing.


The answer is.......... vulnerable.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I could be as gentle as a weightless feather and all he'd hear is how defective he is. It's a problem he has. Our MC told him he needs to work on it, and his response was to stop MC. That was in 2014.


Hope- maybe we have identical husbands. Your email would generate the exact same response from my husband. And the initiation tactics (staring at the back of your head lol!) are the same. 

When I mentioned way upthread somewhere that my H hasn't initiated in years a couple people were like wow! That's unbelievable. If you ASKED my husband point blank if he's initiated in the last year he will say yes!! She rejects me all of the time! She's never in the mood! To him, those sometimes undetectable subtleties that he throws at me ARE initiating. 

In my opinion, there's no point in arguing that with him. We just see two different realities on this topic. I don't think it's worth it to waste my time trying to make him see who is "right".

My husband has low self esteem. He just does. I understand the root of some of it, and some of it I don't understand at all. It used to get me so frustrated for all the reasons you describe. Every single conversation we had, if I tried to bring up any constructive criticism, was met with total shutdown, omg you hate me now, and retreat by him. 

Side note: I now have an 8 year old son who is also like this, and has been from the time he was old enough to communicate with me. So I really do think at least a part of this personality is inborn. When I began realizing my son is also like this, I was really upset and began looking inward. I thought- maybe it's me?! Maybe I am the reason they are both like this? So I started studying them both and trying to find ways to stop repeating the patterns of their self loathing behavior.

All I can do is change myself, I can't change him. I take an approach similar to jld's suggestion and I am exceedingly gentle with him. ( I KNOW that the knee jerk reaction is omg that is infuriating! I shouldn't have to be his mother! Believe me, it took me a long time to get over that hump.) 

I don't coddle him like you might coddle a child. I am still honest. The only thing I did change was HOW I speak (and write) to him. I am very unemotional and very plain when I speak to him about a charged topic. I make sure I use as few words as possible, and that I'm even keeled about it. I don't raise my voice, I make sure my body language is calm, and I give him bullet points. I pause and give him time to respond. 

I want to be clear that I am not dumbing things down for him. I just make sure I don't give him anything extra to react to - like my emotion or my body language - only the actual words I am saying. Think of it as a "poker face". 

If the conversation begins to get emotionally heated (I get upset or feel like I'm going to snap and can't hold my tongue any longer) I wrap it up quickly and take a break before it goes downhill. Important topics in my house can take many small conversations to fully play out and resolve, if my goal is to make sure I am tempering the conversation this way.

You might look at this and be like whoa - F that. A couple of years ago I definitely would've felt that way. 

The thing is, if I don't do it this way? The only thing he's clinging onto is my emotion. He is reading my demeanor and completely disregarding the words I am saying to him. If I am visibly upset, angry, frustrated or whatever, his take away is omg I've done it again! I'm such a piece of crap! And the shut down begins. 

Writing anything in all caps to him?! Oh dear lord, that would cause an avalanche of self hate. 

You have to be in a place where you can be patient with him though. And I know that when you're at the end of your rope, the patience has run out. I just cope with distancing myself when I am overwhelmed and frustrated with him. It seems to ebb and flow with us. We don't have the same history as you guys do, so maybe I just haven't gotten to the true end of my rope yet. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I think she thinks it's funny - and judging from how many likes and comments she gets* I think a whole lot of other women think it's funny too.*


The bolded is the problem.



kag123 said:


> I've never understood the whole dumb husband stereotype thing. Wives treating husbands like they are bumbling idiots or another one of the children is a peeve of mine.


Yeah, you'd think it would reflect badly on the woman, that she had a husband like that.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Laughs aside, is that really how it is?


When I first came to TAM in 2014, F2 was worse than this.

She has been snarky once since 2015, when she told me she didn't want it to go long in a lousy tone. I told her no thank you and then went to sleep. It has not happened since.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Livvie said:


> I don't think sex 3 or 4 times during a kid free 10 day vacation fir people in their 40s is a lot...


Lol! Point taken!

I suppose two things are happening while we're on vacation - her interest goes up, mine goes down 

But for us, 3, 4, 5 times in a 10 day span is a month's worth under normal circumstances.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> In case it needs to be spelled out: communicating this need properly is likely to make her shift the importance of sex on the list of her priorities (if that is logistically possible, given her work schedule/kids etc) while understanding where she is coming from for Alex (initiating it once a week), is likely going to put his mind at rest that it is not some form of power play on her part.
> 
> The way I would go about it (if I was not really comfortable approaching my spouse point blank), I would forward articles or talk about articles regarding the importance of wanting to have sex with your partner (or any issue that Alexm feels is an issue associated with feeling the way he is feeling). Eventually she will figure out from the hints what it's about or it will open up the door for an honest conversation (which is really what is missing here). She will either be able to explain better why it is inconvenient for her to change things around to accommodate that need or change things around.


IMP, I appreciate it, I really really do. Your insight into this thread has been fantastic and VERY much appreciated.

But I think you've missed the point where I have spent years doing exactly the above, and this is precisely why I've arrived at my current situation/action. I don't expect you to have read through all my posts over the years (since 2008, holy cripes...!) of course 

Articles (she tends not to read), websites (she tends not to visit), videos (she's watched a few with me, agreed and understood, yet back to the same almost immediately), and too many conversations which tend to wind up making her feel that she's not good enough (not my fault, this is her usual reaction to things. Trust me, I'm easy to talk to). Not to mention a number of questionnaires (5 Love Languages, sexual preferences, etc.) that she never gets around to doing.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Sex, in and of itself, I don't believe to be a need that can be met exclusively in marriage (for some people). There's always cheating, open marriages and massage parlors.
> 
> I was thinking more about the emotional needs that often come packaged with sex, but can be separate sometimes as well. Companionship, trust, intimacy and the like.
> 
> ...


I think you're wrong about this. We all need trust, and intimacy, and emotional connection. It's a very human need. Different people may need different levels of it, some of us are more self-sufficient than others. But we all need it.

Many of us choose to fulfill those needs through marriage, but there are actually lots of ways to go about it, friends, relatives, lovers. There is no right way to fill the needs, and different people will have different capacities that way.

The problems arise, I think, when we are expecting other people to fill needs for us that they are simply not equipped to fill. We assign these obligations to other people, then resent them when they can't manage it. We all have a picture of how things "should be" and how others "should behave", but this is actually pretty imposing, if not controlling, and sometimes we're better off thinking a bit more about why we think everyone else needs to fit our model.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> IMP, I appreciate it, I really really do. Your insight into this thread has been fantastic and VERY much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So I've got to ask- how does it make you feel that she won't do these things to help improve the marriage, even if you ask her nicely? My husband doesn't particularly enjoy reading about emotional needs. But when I sent him a few of Dr. Harley's articles and told him it would mean a lot to me if he would read them and share his thoughts, he did out of love for me and our marriage.

IMO, what you write above would bother me more than the lack of meeting any one particular need. It shows a lack of care for you. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Sorry, I'm his wife, not his mother. I tell him what I need, I have done so in a hundred different ways, in MC and while working through countless books and exercises. For a while it seemed to work, but he's regressed since 2014 and wants to pretend everything is fine. I refuse to coddle that attitude.


Can you forgive him for being such a poor communicator, unable to voice his own needs, and afraid to dig deeper to work through his problems? For (and I'm just guessing here, but it fits) being so insecure that he's worried what you'll think of him when you finally see through to the real him?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I think you're wrong about this. We all need trust, and intimacy, and emotional connection. It's a very human need. Different people may need different levels of it, some of us are more self-sufficient than others. But we all need it.
> 
> Many of us choose to fulfill those needs through marriage, but there are actually lots of ways to go about it, friends, relatives, lovers. There is no right way to fill the needs, and different people will have different capacities that way.
> 
> The problems arise, I think, when we are expecting other people to fill needs for us that they are simply not equipped to fill. We assign these obligations to other people, then resent them when they can't manage it. We all have a picture of how things "should be" and how others "should behave", but this is actually pretty imposing, if not controlling, and sometimes we're better off thinking a bit more about why we think everyone else needs to fit our model.


Point taken. But under normal circumstances, why would you not expect a spouse to at least make an effort to meet your needs for intimacy and connection? I certainly wouldn't expect my barber to, but my spouse?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Point taken. But under normal circumstances, why would you not expect a spouse to at least make an effort to meet your needs for intimacy and connection? I certainly wouldn't expect my barber to, but my spouse?


Sounds like you have been going to the wrong barber


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Can you forgive him for being such a poor communicator, unable to voice his own needs, and afraid to dig deeper to work through his problems? For (and I'm just guessing here, but it fits) being so insecure that he's worried what you'll think of him when you finally see through to the real him?


Might be insecurity. Might be an effort to control through guilt. I have two tween daughters that try to pull the same crap. Ask them why they didn't get their homework done and it instantly escalates to "OH I'M THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT...". It's about as sincere as a three dollar bill.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Might be insecurity. Might be an effort to control through guilt. I have two tween daughters that try to pull the same crap. Ask them why they didn't get their homework done and it instantly escalates to "OH I'M THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT...". It's about as sincere as a three dollar bill.


Could it not be underlying shame and guilt?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> For those who despise hypocrisy...if you want to really scramble your eggs, think about all of the times your partner has used that very thing to try to get you to accept the unacceptable.
> 
> F2 used to do it to me anytime she wanted something bad enough. She is a smart cookie, and for a lot of years, she ran rampant over me because I did not smell the manipulation. I just knew it made me mad and I could I not put a finger on why.
> 
> ...


I have to say that I'm feeling very fortunate that my husband has never asked me to accept the unacceptable. He seems to understand perfectly well that the unacceptable ... is just that. I'll have to thank him later for this!

That said, I've also never had troubles with boundaries -- I've a very low tolerance for people who are trying to jack me around.

I'm curious, though, to know what you mean. What sorts of unacceptable things did your wife expect you to accept? How did she convince you? It seems strange to me that you would describe it as a lack of symmetry when it sounds very much like the exact opposite -- where you insisted on symmetry in order to get her to see those boundaries.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> I know perfectly well that I should deprive him of something he WANTS and not sex if I want to be a *****, but I'm not really into that. I've never believed sex should be used as a weapon - in our relationship he is FAR more likely to do so than me. I see what I am doing as an experiment, but I know perfectly well many wouldn't. But many aren't me and him  I really want to see how long it takes for HIM to initiate a conversation about lack of bedroom activity. I have ALWAYS given in first before - ALWAYS - but this time, no. I am perfectly willing to go without sex for a month or three or even a year if that's what it takes, because he pretends nothing is wrong.


And this is precisely what I'm doing (well, more or less, I suppose).

I realize that it's probably self-defeating, but I'm at the point where I've quite literally done and tried and said everything, with no headway made. This is about maintaining my sanity and self-respect, as opposed to purposefully doing harm.

I wonder what it would be like if Hope's husband and my wife were married, lol! Each one with their ridiculously passive 'initiation' and inability to hear what we're saying. I can picture two people in bed, buck naked, in the pitch black, lying awake wondering why the hell he/she isn't picking up on their 'signals'!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Point taken. But under normal circumstances, why would you not expect a spouse to at least make an effort to meet your needs for intimacy and connection? I certainly wouldn't expect my barber to, but my spouse?


Turns out that sometimes your barber would actually be the better person to talk to about certain things! :grin2:

But of course we get married with the idea that our partners will fill certain of our needs. And no reason not to communicate what those needs are. To ask them to help you out, and so on.

But at a certain point of banging your head against the wall, it's worth reconsidering whether they are equipped to be the person you want them to be, and whether it's worth the continued headache of banging your head against the wall.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Might be insecurity. Might be an effort to control through guilt. I have two tween daughters that try to pull the same crap. Ask them why they didn't get their homework done and it instantly escalates to "OH I'M THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT...". It's about as sincere as a three dollar bill.


LOL. That would just make me laugh!

"Yes, dear, you could do something right. You just chose not to."


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I love this post. Thank you, kag.

I also have two stepkids who simply can't take any criticism, constructive or otherwise. The apple does not fall far...

The refrain around here is "I'm not good enough". And like you, I started to look at myself. Am I wording things the wrong way? Am I an *******? Is my frustration showing through to a point where I become condescending? Clearly to these people, I am.

But now I walk on eggshells, as they say, and that SUCKS. I'm NOT an *******. I'm not even blunt most of the time. 

There are just some people that can NOT take any sort of criticism whatsoever, lest they feel inferior. I genuinely feel bad for my wife and stepkids to feel this way constantly - and not just by me. Both kids feel like this at school, for example. They're both really, really good kids, but their failures at school are typically the teacher's fault, or some other excuse.

Basically, I live in a house where 3 of the 4 people don't take responsibility for their own shortcomings.

I'm ranting here now, but my mother in law's favourite saying is "If you don't like me the way I am, go **** yourself" or other variations of that theme. She's been married and divorced 3 times. My wife has literally used that on me on a few occasions over the years (minus the go **** yourself part). I HATE that ****.

This is how some people live their lives. They KNOW they have shortcomings, but screw anyone who dares to point them out. If you can't handle them, ****** off. You accept me for who I am, end of story. BULL****. It's nothing but excuses for bad behaviour, laziness, inability to face your fears, and a reason to build walls and avoid stuff you want to avoid. Total, utter weakness, IMO.

/rant over!



kag123 said:


> Hope- maybe we have identical husbands. Your email would generate the exact same response from my husband. And the initiation tactics (staring at the back of your head lol!) are the same.
> 
> When I mentioned way upthread somewhere that my H hasn't initiated in years a couple people were like wow! That's unbelievable. If you ASKED my husband point blank if he's initiated in the last year he will say yes!! She rejects me all of the time! She's never in the mood! To him, those sometimes undetectable subtleties that he throws at me ARE initiating.
> 
> ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Jessica38 said:


> So I've got to ask- how does it make you feel that she won't do these things to help improve the marriage, even if you ask her nicely? My husband doesn't particularly enjoy reading about emotional needs. But when I sent him a few of Dr. Harley's articles and told him it would mean a lot to me if he would read them and share his thoughts, he did out of love for me and our marriage.
> 
> IMO, what you write above would bother me more than the lack of meeting any one particular need. It shows a lack of care for you.
> 
> ...


It does, yes. But more than that, I think it shows a lack of caring about _herself_. A common theme for my wife is that she feels that she doesn't quite measure up to things (not just in the marriage). She doesn't walk around like Eeyore, isn't mopey, and doesn't show an outward sense of low self esteem, but it's there.

For whatever reason, she does not feel like she's worthy of many things. She has come a LONG way in the ~9 years we've been together. It took me a couple of months to recognize this in her way back then, and I adjusted accordingly. But old habits die hard, and she still shows signs that she doesn't feel worthy of a lot of what she has - or more aptly, that she's not worthy of wanting more. I believe this to be her one defining "wall" that prevents her and I from truly reaching any next level, relationship-wise.

I'm working on it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I love this post. Thank you, kag.
> 
> I also have two stepkids who simply can't take any criticism, constructive or otherwise. The apple does not fall far...
> 
> ...


That could all be the outcome.

But underlying it could be shame and guilt. Just tons of insecurity.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

alexm said:


> I love this post. Thank you, kag.
> 
> 
> The refrain around here is "I'm not good enough".
> ...


I'm not so sure about that. I think it's intentional behavior intended to bully you into shutting up and leaving them alone. You rightfully as step dad or husband want to address and issue, and the response from stepkids or wife is so over-the-top, so much beyond what you even began to address, that's it's quite preposterous. It's intended to put you on the back foot. You apologize for something you didn't do. And you don't even get to the merits of whatever issue you want or need to address because they effectively have changed to subject to the now conventional wisdom that Alex is an @sshat. Which you are not.

It's a power play, plain and simple. A juvenile one that is incredibly disrespectful, to be sure, but it's still a power play. The big problem is it apparently works with you. When you, consistently and without anger, stand up to it and insist on having the adult discussion you want to have, the game will be up.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Think of it as a "poker face".
> 
> If the conversation begins to get emotionally heated (I get upset or feel like I'm going to snap and can't hold my tongue any longer) I wrap it up quickly and take a break before it goes downhill.


Yup, BTDT. With coaching from our MC. We actually spent quite a bit of time on this because it IS something I can use work on, which I totally and freely admit. Like I said, the minute the focus went from what *I* could do to what *HE* could do in MC, he shut it down.



wild jade said:


> Can you forgive him for being such a poor communicator, unable to voice his own needs, and afraid to dig deeper to work through his problems? For (and I'm just guessing here, but it fits) being so insecure that he's worried what you'll think of him when you finally see through to the real him?


I don't see anything to 'forgive' him for. He's been this way forever, I know he's this way, and like I said, I am not on the verge of divorce over it. It's something I have to, and do, live with. He has the information he needs to change it and chooses not to, for whatever reason. I hope someday he DOES have the courage to change it, but in the meantime it is what it is.



alexm said:


> I realize that it's probably self-defeating, but I'm at the point where I've quite literally done and tried and said everything, with no headway made. This is about maintaining my sanity and self-respect, as opposed to purposefully doing harm.


LOL you and I keep coming to the conclusion that we are SO much at the same place!!!



alexm said:


> I wonder what it would be like if Hope's husband and my wife were married, lol! Each one with their ridiculously passive 'initiation' and inability to hear what we're saying. I can picture two people in bed, buck naked, in the pitch black, lying awake wondering why the hell he/she isn't picking up on their 'signals'!


 hahahaha that LITERALLY made me laugh out loud!!!!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> I'm ranting here now, but my mother in law's favourite saying is "If you don't like me the way I am, go **** yourself" or other variations of that theme. She's been married and divorced 3 times. My wife has literally used that on me on a few occasions over the years (minus the go **** yourself part). I HATE that ****.
> 
> This is how some people live their lives. They KNOW they have shortcomings, but screw anyone who dares to point them out. If you can't handle them, ****** off. You accept me for who I am, end of story. BULL****. It's nothing but excuses for bad behaviour, laziness, inability to face your fears, and a reason to build walls and avoid stuff you want to avoid. Total, utter weakness, IMO.
> 
> /rant over!


As someone who shares this attitude, at least partially, allow me to speak in defense of it.

There are no shortage of people in this world who will tell you how to live your life, who will attempt to control what you do, "for your own good", and shame and guilt you into being something they think you should be. This could be something as minor as a MIL coming over to a house and criticizing the way you clean your house. It could be something as major as a parent not giving a child a chance to pursue their own dreams and independence, but are instead determined to live vicariously through them.

At some point in life, it's necessary to define your own boundaries as to what you will and will not accept. It isn't a sign of weakness at all, it is a sign of strength. Of a determination that you will not let other people control your own self-determination, autonomy, values.

Yes, we all have shortcomings, and I'm most certainly no different. Scads full of them. But my reluctance to take input from others doesn't mean I'm not willing to work on my shortcomings or that I can't take criticism. It just means that it's up to me to decide what's actually a problem, and what I choose to work on. If someone says something that hits home for me, I'll take it on board. If someone is just telling me how they think I should be, I, well, I really don't care what they think.

Lucky for me, my husband and I are very similar in this regard. He doesn't like to be told what to do or who to be any more than I do, and so it is very easy for us to give each other the space we need to grow in the ways that we each find most meaningful for ourselves.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Definitions*

Fozzy,
Agreed. Definitions matter. Having needs vs being needy.

Each of us has to decide what our needs are and then....

It is being needy if: You are consistently pressuring someone in a negative way to do something for you, despite knowing they don't want to do it. 

Whether said pressure is applied via whine or induced pain of a sort - that's being needy. 

Exception: It isn't being needy if you can TAKE what you want in a manner that works well for the other person. 

--------------
And that exception is totally legit. I have done and been done that way. It's seems aggressive, but it plays out symbiotic





Fozzy said:


> Burning the midnight oil Mem?
> 
> For all this time and discussion around neediness, I'm still not clear where the delineation is between "having needs" and "neediness".
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I take an approach similar to jld's suggestion and I am exceedingly gentle with him. ( I KNOW that the knee jerk reaction is omg that is infuriating! I shouldn't have to be his mother! Believe me, it took me a long time to get over that hump.)
> 
> The thing is, if I don't do it this way? The only thing he's clinging onto is my emotion. He is reading my demeanor and completely disregarding the words I am saying to him. If I am visibly upset, angry, frustrated or whatever, his take away is omg I've done it again! I'm such a piece of crap! And the shut down begins.


If being gentle works, and gets you the result you want, then keep doing it.

If not, then at some point you need to do the opposite. Not yell at him. But agree with his fears. Tell him "yes, you have done it again, you failed to please me, you left me in the lurch, and I am not happy. I can see you want to crawl under a rock and die. I can see you want to run away and hide. Well, sorry buddy, but you are not walking away from this. And I am long past being deflected by your pain. So cry all you want, but I need a husband who can tolerate hearing my complaints. And who can learn to address my complaints constructively. Not an immature man-child who turns his brain off at the first sound of complaint from me. Can you be that man? Do you want to be? Because the man who wants to be my husband needs to become that man."

At some point arguing that he isn't a complete failure is counter-productive. He is. Agree with him. Then ask him if he wants to learn to do better. Offer to help him. But warn him that refusing your help won't make the issue go away. It will just make you go away.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

wild jade said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > I'm ranting here now, but my mother in law's favourite saying is "If you don't like me the way I am, go **** yourself" or other variations of that theme. She's been married and divorced 3 times. My wife has literally used that on me on a few occasions over the years (minus the go **** yourself part). I HATE that ****.
> ...


It didn't sound to me like Alex is trying to tell someone how they should be, as much as being shut down as soon as he stated that something isn't working for him and what his feelings are about an issue. Instead of being heard, he is pushed off with--- basically--- just deal with it. He has the right to be heard in his relationship.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> K
> It didn't sound to me like Alex is trying to tell someone how they should be, as much as being shut down as soon as he stated that something isn't working for him and what his feelings are about an issue. Instead of being heard, he is pushed off with--- basically--- just deal with it. He has the right to be heard in his relationship.


I think he can be heard . . . If he hears them first.

Alex, do you ever employ active listening?


----------



## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> When I first came to TAM in 2014, F2 was worse than this.
> 
> She has been snarky once since 2015, when she told me she didn't want it to go long in a lousy tone. I told her no thank you and then went to sleep. It has not happened since.


My wife did the same thing to me during the act itself sometime around Halloween. I haven't troubled her since. I think I like your approach better.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> something as minor as a MIL coming over to a house and criticizing the way you clean your house.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> I think he can be heard . . . If he hears them first.
> 
> Alex, do you ever employ active listening?


JLD, do you consider that sometimes people are difficult to deal with and have negative parts of their personalities?

You seem to imply they are like this because of something Alex is doing, or not doing.

Some people are dysfunctional and have negative relational habits and responses and they like using them for their benefit. You often fail to acknowledge this fact of life.


----------



## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> :grin2:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSK4u_p2yVk


If we're talking about poker I see this video and raise it with the following: 






"Two minutes in Heaven is better than one minute in Heaven."


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,

IME people who want to reach full potential easily differentiate between who they are and what they are doing. 

The feedback style can make that easier. 

That was a dumb thing to say 
is easily heard as 
You are dumb

As opposed to:
When I have been in that situation what has worked well for me is XYZ

----------







wild jade said:


> As someone who shares this attitude, at least partially, allow me to speak in defense of it.
> 
> There are no shortage of people in this world who will tell you how to live your life, who will attempt to control what you do, "for your own good", and shame and guilt you into being something they think you should be. This could be something as minor as a MIL coming over to a house and criticizing the way you clean your house. It could be something as major as a parent not giving a child a chance to pursue their own dreams and independence, but are instead determined to live vicariously through them.
> 
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> JLD, do you consider that sometimes people are difficult to deal with and have negative parts of their personalities?
> 
> You seem to imply they are like this because of something Alex is doing, or not doing.
> 
> Some people are dysfunctional and have negative relational habits and responses and they like using them for their benefit. You often fail to acknowledge this fact of life.


No, not implying that at all.

Sometimes people just want to be heard, Livvie. After they feel heard, they might be open to constructive advice. 

But if they do not get the validation of their feelings that they are seeking, their minds may never quiet down long enough to be able to accept even the most helpful input.

Is it not the same with everyone here?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

wild jade said:


> I'm curious, though, to know what you mean. What sorts of unacceptable things did your wife expect you to accept?


Adopting more animals. Catering to animals with expensive improvements. Purchases of things, some small, some large. I acquiesced to make her happy. She felt she needed them due to the hole in our relationship, and it was her solution to fill the hole. In that, it was partly my fault as well.



> How did she convince you? It seems strange to me that you would describe it as a lack of symmetry when it sounds very much like the exact opposite -- where you insisted on symmetry in order to get her to see those boundaries.


Charm, emotional intimidation, bargaining, pestering...you name it, it was tried.



> It seems strange to me that you would describe it as a lack of symmetry when it sounds very much like the exact opposite -- where you insisted on symmetry in order to get her to see those boundaries.


It was not insisting on symmetry as much as presenting a hypothetical scenario when I asked the question "Would you be okay with me doing that to you?". Actual symmetry would be me treating her that way, and then pointing it out to her. At least, that is how I see it, but perhaps we are splitting hairs as well.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

wild jade said:


> LOL. That would just make me laugh!
> 
> "Yes, dear, you could do something right. You just chose not to."


I LOVE this!


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Laughs aside, is that really how it is?


No, well for a while. 

We can only maintain our obliviousness to the total lack of interest for a limited period of time, say a decade of so. Eventually we wake up and start self editing 98% of the time.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> She does indeed not seem very nice. That is why I was asking if that was normal.
> 
> Maybe some of you guys should have married nicer gals?


She was nicer, before marriage. Mostly before childbirth...


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > JLD, do you consider that sometimes people are difficult to deal with and have negative parts of their personalities?
> ...


Don't you think Alex has done this? It sounds like he has thought about the dynamic at length. He says he even has to walk on eggshells now around his wife and her children. You seemed to imply they respond this way because he isn't hearing them.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

But you can't rescue her, either. She has to want to fix it. Until then, all you can do is let her experience the consequences of her actions. Anything less is enabling the behavior to continue.

It is similar to my son. No matter how I present to him that he ought to approach something a certain way, he insists on doing it a different way. So, I tell him once. Then, when it backfires, he gets to learn from his mistake. I don't give him the "I told you so" or any such thing. He will have to learn...or not. I can't walk that for him any more than you can for her.



alexm said:


> It does, yes. But more than that, I think it shows a lack of caring about _herself_. A common theme for my wife is that she feels that she doesn't quite measure up to things (not just in the marriage). She doesn't walk around like Eeyore, isn't mopey, and doesn't show an outward sense of low self esteem, but it's there.
> 
> For whatever reason, she does not feel like she's worthy of many things. She has come a LONG way in the ~9 years we've been together. It took me a couple of months to recognize this in her way back then, and I adjusted accordingly. But old habits die hard, and she still shows signs that she doesn't feel worthy of a lot of what she has - or more aptly, that she's not worthy of wanting more. I believe this to be her one defining "wall" that prevents her and I from truly reaching any next level, relationship-wise.
> 
> I'm working on it.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Funny how gaslighting is learned at such an early age...



neuklas said:


> I'm not so sure about that. I think it's intentional behavior intended to bully you into shutting up and leaving them alone. You rightfully as step dad or husband want to address and issue, and the response from stepkids or wife is so over-the-top, so much beyond what you even began to address, that's it's quite preposterous. It's intended to put you on the back foot. You apologize for something you didn't do. And you don't even get to the merits of whatever issue you want or need to address because they effectively have changed to subject to the now conventional wisdom that Alex is an @sshat. Which you are not.
> 
> It's a power play, plain and simple. A juvenile one that is incredibly disrespectful, to be sure, but it's still a power play. The big problem is it apparently works with you. When you, consistently and without anger, stand up to it and insist on having the adult discussion you want to have, the game will be up.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Don't you think Alex has done this? It sounds like he has thought about the dynamic at length. He says he even has to walk on eggshells now around his wife and her children. You seemed to imply they respond this way because he isn't hearing them.


It may not be that he is not hearing them, but that they do not *feel* heard.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> No, not implying that at all.
> 
> *Sometimes* people just want to be heard, Livvie. After they feel heard, they might be open to constructive advice.
> 
> ...


No, it isn't actually. Not everyone here is, or wants to be, just like Dug. Nor do we all want to be married to Dug or anyone Dug-like.

I bolded the above two words because they contradict each other. 



Livvie said:


> You seemed to imply they respond this way because he isn't hearing them.


Yes, I also think this is being implied. And it's garbage. When someone has tried everything and they are told that no, in fact, they HAVEN'T tried everything, it's insulting.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> No, it isn't actually. Not everyone here is, or wants to be, just like Dug. Nor do we all want to be married to Dug or anyone Dug-like.
> 
> I bolded the above two words because they contradict each other.
> 
> Yes, I also think this is being implied. And it's garbage. When someone has tried everything and they are told that no, in fact, they HAVEN'T tried everything, it's insulting.


I'm pretty sure everyone here *does* want their feelings validated at least sometimes, if not always, Hope. 

Do you not want people to tell you that you are justified in wanting to feel desired by your husband? 

Do you accept to be told that if that is what you want, then you need to inspire that? Or do you become defensive?


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

JLD it often sounds like you don't have any experience being in an adult intimate relationship with someone who has some real dysfunction and/or intensely unhealthy ways of relating. For that reason, your advice sometimes falls short of being able to understand more facets of what might be at play.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone here *does* want their feelings validated at least sometimes, if not always, Hope.
> 
> Do you not want people to tell you that you are justified in wanting to feel desired by your husband?


 No, I don't need someone to tell me I am justified for what I feel or think or do. I value people's opinions about things, whether they think I'm out to lunch or not, but I certainly don't need their validation. I KNOW I am justified in wanting to feel desired by my husband. What anyone else thinks of that is irrelevant to me.



jld said:


> Do you accept to be told that if that is what you want, then you need to inspire that? Or do you become defensive?


 People don't need me to inspire their opinions - they're perfectly capable of having their opinions without my input I am sure.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> She does indeed not seem very nice. That is why I was asking if that was normal.
> 
> Maybe some of you guys should have married nicer gals?


Making a note, April 18, 2017. 

JLD, possibly for the first time in TAM history suggests the women might have a bad attitude 

Further, in a bit of a stretch - that the males repeated attempts in the face of total indifference should have been 'inspiring' >


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure everyone here *does* want their feelings validated at least sometimes, if not always, Hope.
> ...


I think she might mean that you need to inspire him to desire you....


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> JLD it often sounds like you don't have any experience being in an adult intimate relationship with someone who has some real dysfunction and/or intensely unhealthy ways of relating. For that reason, your advice sometimes falls short of being able to understand more facets of what might be at play.


Or I learned from what experience I do have with that.

Livvie, I think there is a lot more hope for some of the problems here than may be thought at first glance. But it tends to require some willingness to consider things from other than a conventional right/wrong perspective.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I think she might mean that you need to inspire him to desire you....


Yes. And I think it can be done.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
The power differential thing - that is important. Ands it is especially important to a man raised to believe that it is BAD/UNMANLY to show weakness. 

I got raised the opposite. In our house, denying a weakness - was viewed as either putting a spotlight or a magnifying glass on it. Or both. 

My father told me early on - somebody is giving you feedback - the first and most important question you ask yourself is: Are they trying to help me? 

Then he said - assume they are unless they prove otherwise. 
------------

My playbook regarding feedback goes like this:
Improvement is about you, reparations are about me. 

No matter what I want - to be true - for MOST people - feedback either sounds like:
1. You suck because 
Or
2. It would be nice if 

The former is backward looking - and typically the subtext is a request for an apology. 

But the latter is forward looking - and the request is for improvement. 
-----------

M2 taught me this delivery style of: 'it would be nice if you would do XYZ'. 





kag123 said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> Another issue in my marriage is this subject of needs.
> 
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Making a note, April 18, 2017.
> 
> *JLD, possibly for the first time in TAM history suggests the women might have a bad attitude *
> 
> Further, in a bit of a stretch - that the males repeated attempts in the face of total indifference should have been 'inspiring' >


I was actually thinking of doing a thread on this. _How to be sweet to your husband . . . _


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> JLD it often sounds like you don't have any experience being in an adult intimate relationship with someone who has some real dysfunction and/or intensely unhealthy ways of relating. For that reason, your advice sometimes falls short of being able to understand more facets of what might be at play.


Most non problem relationship types in TAM are like that. To them an argument is whether to have pizza or tacos for dinner...

Lots of crazies out there.....


----------



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Yes, I also think this is being implied. And it's garbage. When someone has tried everything and they are told that no, in fact, they HAVEN'T tried everything, it's insulting.


I had actually thought about this before I posted to you the last time, worried I might come off that way. Hopefully I didn't!


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> It does, yes. But more than that, I think it shows a lack of caring about _herself_. A common theme for my wife is that she feels that she doesn't quite measure up to things (not just in the marriage). She doesn't walk around like Eeyore, isn't mopey, and doesn't show an outward sense of low self esteem, but it's there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you get her into IC to find the reason? It might improve the marriage.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I think she might mean that you need to inspire him to desire you....


Ya, BTDT. Ad nauseum.



kag123 said:


> I had actually thought about this before I posted to you the last time, worried I might come off that way. Hopefully I didn't!


 Just a bit, and certainly not in an insulting way!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Ya, BTDT. Ad nauseum.
> 
> Just a bit, and certainly not in an insulting way!


If you don't mind my asking, how have you BTDT? What specifically have you tried to inspire his desire for you?


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I think she might mean that you need to inspire him to desire you....
> ...


I dated a man who was absolutely ****ed in the head. If someone had suggested I just needed to *inspire him* to be treated better, my head probably would have exploded.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I dated a man who was absolutely ****ed in the head. If someone had suggested I just needed to *inspire him* to be treated better, my head probably would have exploded.


The two options I see are to try to inspire a partner or to leave him. 

And leaving him may sometimes be the wiser choice.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> If you don't mind my asking, how have you BTDT? What specifically have you tried to inspire his desire for you?


Sorry, not going to list everything I've done in the last 20 years for you to judge and tell me it's not enough. I am positive that you'd do things differently than me. Suffice it to say that if it was 'good enough' for my IC and our MC then it's good enough.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> The two options I see are to try to inspire a partner or to leave him.
> 
> And leaving him may sometimes be the wiser choice.


You're forgetting that deciding to just live with it, temporarily or permanently, is a perfectly valid option as well.

You're forgetting that many of us have said, repeatedly, that these problems aren't dealbreakers for us.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Sorry, not going to list everything I've done in the last 20 years for you to judge and tell me it's not enough. I am positive that you'd do things differently than me. Suffice it to say that if it was 'good enough' for my IC and our MC then it's good enough.


But you have not gotten the results you have wanted, correct?

Look, if you are satisfied with how things are, then good enough. But if you want new ideas, maybe we can talk.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> You're forgetting that deciding to just live with it, temporarily or permanently, is a perfectly valid option as well.
> 
> You're forgetting that many of us have said, repeatedly, that these problems aren't dealbreakers for us.


Yes, staying is another option. I would hope that with that option a person would try to come to some kind of genuine peace with the situation.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> But you have not gotten the results you have wanted, correct?
> 
> Look, if you are satisfied with how things are, then good enough. But if you want new ideas, maybe we can talk.


How many people get all the results they want for everything all the time?? That isn't realistic in the least.

I've said repeatedly that I am perfectly fine with things the way they are. My posts on this thread are to let people know that I am experiencing the same things they are. I don't think I've asked for any advice anywhere. And if I want new ideas then, frankly, I won't be asking you.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> How many people get all the results they want for everything all the time?? That isn't realistic in the least.
> 
> I've said repeatedly that I am perfectly fine with things the way they are. My posts on this thread are to let people know that I am experiencing the same things they are. I don't think I've asked for any advice anywhere. And if I want new ideas then, frankly, I won't be asking you.


All right. 

But the offer stands.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hope,

I am sorry your situation is difficult. Even when we were constantly fighting - I didnt want to leave M2. 

For (hopefully) a quick chuckle - I inadvertently antagonized M2 regarding our sex life. At the time it is fair to say that:
My view: What the **** happened to our intense, high frequency sex life?
Her view: Why is he such an ungrateful jerk?

So - I crossed the red line and M2 put me on a 3/day schedule. Yep. Ragged edge of - barely could keep up - territory. And she channeled my affect perfectly. Friendly - determined - casual - but insistent. 

I stayed on message for the whole time. Babe, you've made your point. I wasn't just wrong - I was Titanic scale wrong. And am proportionally sorry. 

And she just did this - dead calm - low affect smile replying: Babe, you'll be fine - you are much tougher than you realize. 

It was a long long three weeks of dealing with - myself. 




Hope1964 said:


> How many people get all the results they want for everything all the time?? That isn't realistic in the least.
> 
> I've said repeatedly that I am perfectly fine with things the way they are. My posts on this thread are to let people know that I am experiencing the same things they are. I don't think I've asked for any advice anywhere. And if I want new ideas then, frankly, I won't be asking you.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Fozzy,
> 
> If M2 seemed to be falling out of love with me....
> 
> ...


The last paragraph might be a little idealistic. Perhaps marriages *should* be based on love, not symmetry but are they, in practice?. 
I don’t think there is anything wrong with accepting symmetry as part of successful partnership. It is a form of symbiosis, after all. The ‘symmetry’ does not need to show itself in the same areas however. For Alexm and myself, the desire of our partners may be higher on our ‘list of needs’ while something else might be lower. This ‘something else’ may in turn be higher on our partner’s list of needs while sex is lower. And so on. The symmetry (I prefer the term ‘partner symbiosis’, because this kind of thing cannot be completely symmetrical) is inherently there though. 

Some claim on this thread that they ‘don’t NEED their partner, they WANT to be with their partner’ while at the same time they are convinced that their partner ‘NEEDS them’ (for sex etc). I find it difficult to relate to this mindset because I know that I absolutely NEED to be with my wife (apart from also wanting it) even if I can’t define exactly why. I also feel that my wife absolutely NEEDS me, possibly in slightly other ways than I need her. (And I don’t believe it is only for practical reasons.)

I don’t think I could be with anyone where I had the feeling that they didn’t ‘need’ me as much as I needed them. When people say that they would be absolutely fine if their husband left tomorrow, do they actually mean it? I am not talking in just practical terms but in general. They would not feel anything emotionally? I wouldn't feel much if I couldn’t have cupcakes but I would certainly be devastated if suddenly my wife left. I know it would be the same for her.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> You're forgetting that deciding to just live with it, temporarily or permanently, is a perfectly valid option as well.
> 
> You're forgetting that many of us have said, repeatedly, that these problems aren't dealbreakers for us.


I think the key here is well, each situation is different, there is no "cookie cutter" solution that you can just apply and voila (sp?), all is better. Sometimes a person is the way he/she is, and we can accept that given the many other positive qualities that are present. In other instances, the "shortcoming" is too much to deal with. You can't just expect that every person just needs a little "inspiration", or the whole "Did you listen to him/her? Yes I did. But did you really listen to him/her? Yes I did. But did you REALLY REALLY listen to him/her????".

Honestly, just my opinion, but the whole inspiration thing is a bit fooey. If two grown adults, in an adult relationship, require "inspiration" and "nurturing" to want to work on the relationship, IDK, something just seems off with that, and it rings more of a parent/child type relationship.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly, just my opinion, but the whole inspiration thing is a bit fooey. If two grown adults, in an adult relationship, require "inspiration" and "nurturing" to want to work on the relationship, IDK, something just seems off with that, and it rings more of a parent/child type relationship.


I know. Not exactly the same, but it reminds me of my brother when he was a teenager and in a brand new relationship with the girl he lost his virginity with. They were so icky sticky gooey sweet to each other it made me want to stick a fork in my eye. And theirs.


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

alexm said:


> I hear you. So how often are you having sex, if I can ask? And by 'scheduling', do you mean planning ahead of time, or you have an actual weekly schedule?
> 
> As far as duty sex goes, I would actually be fine with it, to a certain degree. Again, duty sex is one of those 'bad words' here on TAM, and it doesn't always have to be. What I have now may be construed as duty sex, and my wife may very well view it that way. Truth is, I don't know - it's not something she'd admit to me, that our once-a-week romp is a "to do", but then enjoys once it's happening. This is very likely the case, but it may actually not be.


Actual (but unofficial!) weekly schedule. Like 4 times a week, weekends twice a day (i know,) and usually a Tuesday evening.

Because I know "when," I also enjoy it very, very much.



alexm said:


> She can be, but it takes persistence to get to that point. *That is not something I like to do.* She is, as you can imagine from my threads, not the most open person in the world. She's very much a "file away the negative" kind of person. On a handful of occasions, I've drawn some things out of her, but as I said, it takes some doing, and I'm not comfortable doing so.


Ah. I know. I also am not very open. Yes, my husband has to literally dig to get stuff out of me sometimes. Like I said, I'm extremely grateful for him in this regard.

I'm also one of those "Don't change me," people. I agree, we are the worst. :grin2: 

Again, I'm just trying to suss out some of the differences in our dynamics and one I see-- is that my husband is unfailingly blunt and will dig and dig until he sees "resolution." He will ask questions. And ask. And ask again. He will tickle me while asking. He'll get very angry in asking. He'll ask and not give me chocolate until I answer. He'll wait till we are on the highway for hours and ask. He'll get me drunk and ask. Doesn't matter, until it's resolved in his head. 

He also doesn't walk on eggshells. He just gets uh...for the lack of a better word, imposing. Any "woe is me," stuff (which personally I don't do, I much prefer being a total jerk) he bulldozes over. 

That was our first major fight, actually. "WHY DO YOU MAKE ME ASK YOU QUESTIONS TO GET STUFF OUT OF YOU," he asked, all caps.

My answer? "Because." *BLINK BLINK*

(Funny, in retrospect. Key part of our relationship now, though.)

So, you know. I get it. You are frustrated and you have every single right to be. However, and I know this has been pointed out so many times in so many ways, this is who she is. You are who you are. Keep on keeping on as best as you can. :smile2: 



> Not exactly the same, but it reminds me of my brother when he was a teenager and in a brand new relationship with the girl he lost his virginity with. They were so icky sticky gooey sweet to each other it made me want to stick a fork in my eye. And theirs.


I LOL'ed because this is almost exactly what was said to me by one of my coworkers about me and my husband. SORRY NOT SORRY.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Livvie said:


> JLD, do you consider that sometimes people are difficult to deal with and have negative parts of their personalities?
> 
> You seem to imply they are like this because of something Alex is doing, or not doing.
> 
> Some people are dysfunctional and have negative relational habits and responses and they like using them for their benefit. You often fail to acknowledge this fact of life.


Yes, no doubt. But then we have to ask ourselves, why on earth are we with them?

The answer is often that pointing out other people's dysfunctions is just a way of deflecting attention from our own. 

And if it's not, then we have to ask ourselves again, "why are we with them?"


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> The two options I see are to try to inspire a partner or to leave him.
> 
> And leaving him may sometimes be the wiser choice.


The third option is to just accept what is and live with it. Subset choices are to do it with equanimity or with resentment.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> *The third option is to just accept what is and live with it.* Subset choices are to do it with equanimity or with resentment.


Yes, Hope mentioned that earlier.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

IMP,

I liked your comments on symmetry. I used to do this thing - kind of a golden rule type move. The delivery was: Would you be ok, if I did THAT to you? Now I just laugh at that - theme. 

I say this with absolute sincerity: M2 routinely does stuff - she absolutely wouldn't tolerate in reverse. Not rude - jerky - or hateful stuff. Just - socializing kinds of stuff. 

So - I agree with you - this isn't about the mechanics of behavioral symmetry. It's about prioritization. 

I just say to M2 - in a real soft voice: Babe, this is important to me (whatever THIS is). So my compound statement is: 
Babe, this is important to me (pause and confirm I have her undivided attention)
It would be nice if ..... followed by a specific request 

Mostly M2 responds great to this approach. If she is - resistant (very rare) I just smile and observe I can't MAKE her do anything. 

If she is choosing to be confrontational - I either suggest that: 
NEITHER OF US can make the other do anything
Or
2. That I it isn't my desire to give her a spanking - but - if need be - it will hurt me more than it will hurt her




inmyprime said:


> The last paragraph might be a little idealistic. Perhaps marriages *should* be based on love, not symmetry but are they, in practice?.
> I don’t think there is anything wrong with accepting symmetry as part of successful partnership. It is a form of symbiosis, after all. The ‘symmetry’ does not need to show itself in the same areas however. For Alexm and myself, the desire of our partners may be higher on our ‘list of needs’ while something else might be lower. This ‘something else’ may in turn be higher on our partner’s list of needs while sex is lower. And so on. The symmetry (I prefer the term ‘partner symbiosis’, because this kind of thing cannot be completely symmetrical) is inherently there though.
> 
> Some claim on this thread that they ‘don’t NEED their partner, they WANT to be with their partner’ while at the same time they are convinced that their partner ‘NEEDS them’ (for sex etc). I find it difficult to relate to this mindset because I know that I absolutely NEED to be with my wife (apart from also wanting it) even if I can’t define exactly why. I also feel that my wife absolutely NEEDS me, possibly in slightly other ways than I need her. (And I don’t believe it is only for practical reasons.)
> ...


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

john117 said:


> A lawyer never asks a question they don't have the answer to. Extrapolate to "husband" or "wife" as an exercise.
> 
> I have been married for 35 years to someone who should have their picture in the inside jacket cover of the DSM-V. She has surprised me (and in a positive way) exactly once.


Sounds positively blissful.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ReturntoZero said:


> Sounds positively blissful.


The money is good tho 😎


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Some claim on this thread that they ‘don’t NEED their partner, they WANT to be with their partner’ while at the same time they are convinced that their partner ‘NEEDS them’ (for sex etc). I find it difficult to relate to this mindset because I know that I absolutely NEED to be with my wife (apart from also wanting it) even if I can’t define exactly why. I also feel that my wife absolutely NEEDS me, possibly in slightly other ways than I need her. (And I don’t believe it is only for practical reasons.)


*I Want You, But I Don't Need You*

I like you, and I'd like you to like me to like you
But I don't need you
Don't need you to want me to like you
Because if you didn't like me
I would still like you, you see
La la la
La la la

I lick you, I like you to like me to lick you
But I don't need you
Don't need you to like me to lick you
If your pleasure turned into pain
I would still lick for my personal gain
La la la
La la la

I **** you, and I love you to love me to **** you
But I don't ****ing need you
Don't need you to need me to **** you
If you need me to need you to ****
That ****s everything up
La la la
La la la

I want you, and I want you to want me to want you
But I don't need you
Don't need you to need me to need you
That's just me
So take me or leave me
But please don't need me
Don't need me to need you to need me
Cos we're here one minute, the next we're dead
So love me and leave me
But try not to need me
Enough said

I want you, but I don't need you

La la la
La la la

I love you, and I love how you love how I love you
But I don't need you
Don't need you to love me to love you
If your love changed into hate
Would my love have been a mistake?
La la la
La la la

So I'm gonna leave you, and I'd like you to leave me to
leave you
But lover believe me, it isn't because I don't need you
(you know I don't need you)
All I wanted was to be wanted
But you're drowning me deep in your need to be needed
La la la
La la la la la la la la la

I want you, and I want you to want me to want you
But I don't need you
Don't need you to need me to need you
That's just me
So take me or leave me
But please don't need me
Don't need me to need you to need me
Cos we're here one minute, the next we're dead
So love me and leave me
But try not to need me
Enough said
I want you, but I don't need you

Written by Nicholas John Currie, Nick Currie • Copyright © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> The last paragraph might be a little idealistic. Perhaps marriages *should* be based on love, not symmetry but are they, in practice?.
> I don’t think there is anything wrong with accepting symmetry as part of successful partnership. It is a form of symbiosis, after all. The ‘symmetry’ does not need to show itself in the same areas however. For Alexm and myself, the desire of our partners may be higher on our ‘list of needs’ while something else might be lower. This ‘something else’ may in turn be higher on our partner’s list of needs while sex is lower. And so on. The symmetry (I prefer the term ‘partner symbiosis’, because this kind of thing cannot be completely symmetrical) is inherently there though.
> 
> Some claim on this thread that they ‘don’t NEED their partner, they WANT to be with their partner’ while at the same time they are convinced that their partner ‘NEEDS them’ (for sex etc). I find it difficult to relate to this mindset because I know that I absolutely NEED to be with my wife (apart from also wanting it) even if I can’t define exactly why. I also feel that my wife absolutely NEEDS me, possibly in slightly other ways than I need her. (And I don’t believe it is only for practical reasons.)
> ...


Very nice post, imp. Could be the subject of its own interesting thread.

I would certainly be devastated to lose Dug. I don't think I would ever find another man as emotionally independent and as truly good as he is. My quality of life and peace of mind would go way, way, way down.

Otoh, I do not think it would be hard to replace me at all. Many, many, many devoted and loving women out there who would surely cry with joy at finding a mature, responsible, trustworthy, and genuinely caring man.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

wild jade said:


> At some point in life, it's necessary to define your own boundaries as to what you will and will not accept. It isn't a sign of weakness at all, it is a sign of strength. Of a determination that you will not let other people control your own self-determination, autonomy, values.


Gold. Well said.


That 'some point in life' started occurring for my husband and I when we went to therapy. I didn't realize that that's what was happening at the time... looking back though, that's when life became a lot more interesting; a bit serious at first and slowly evolving to a more light-hearted perspective.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

neuklas said:


> I'm not so sure about that. I think it's intentional behavior intended to bully you into shutting up and leaving them alone. You rightfully as step dad or husband want to address and issue, and the response from stepkids or wife is so over-the-top, so much beyond what you even began to address, that's it's quite preposterous. It's intended to put you on the back foot. You apologize for something you didn't do. And you don't even get to the merits of whatever issue you want or need to address because they effectively have changed to subject to the now conventional wisdom that Alex is an @sshat. Which you are not.
> 
> It's a power play, plain and simple. A juvenile one that is incredibly disrespectful, to be sure, but it's still a power play. The big problem is it apparently works with you. *When you, consistently and without anger, stand up to it and insist on having the adult discussion you want to have, the game will be up*.


I have, and I do. This never worked on me. True, I worked on my tone of voice, but I have not ever bit my tongue. My wife also only did this a few times, a long time ago. I told her exactly what I thought of statements like those, and even used her mother as an example.

The one thing my wife is great at, is actually listening to me. We've had discussions about this very topic, in that nobody has ever really challenged her before, or if they have, it's been in a condescending manner. I know how to talk to her. She's managed to change many behaviours - of her own volition, I might add - and vice versa, simply because we discuss things in a rational, adult manner. The only area in which there hasn't been any (visible) movement is our sex life/her sexuality. She actually does listen to what I say in this regard, often agrees or at least understands, but simply can't follow through.

In short, when there's a discussion to be had, she will often feel attacked immediately, despite my reassuring tone. It doesn't take long for her to get over this. It's simply a reflex that she will likely always have. It's what she's been used to, I guess.

See, I don't react this way, ever, and never have, so it was new to me (7, 8 years ago). If someone has a criticism about how I do something, for example, I actually listen. I honestly think it's in no small part to playing high-level team sports when I was younger, and continuing in (decidedly NOT high level) team sports as an adult. I'm open to coaching and criticism and being part of a team - not being an individual.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Livvie said:


> It didn't sound to me like Alex is trying to tell someone how they should be, as much as being shut down as soon as he stated that something isn't working for him and what his feelings are about an issue. Instead of being heard, he is pushed off with--- basically--- just deal with it. He has the right to be heard in his relationship.


Thank you. Yes, this is exactly it.

Some people can handle constructive criticism, some people immediately assume you don't think they're good enough.

Nothing I've ever said or done in this marriage/relationship would be construed by most people as telling them 'how to be'.

My wife knows she's not perfect. She just didn't want to hear that she wasn't.

I know I'm not perfect. I WANT to hear how I can improve as a husband, friend, stepfather, human being.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

farsidejunky said:


> But you can't rescue her, either. She has to want to fix it. *Until then, all you can do is let her experience the consequences of her actions. Anything less is enabling the behavior to continue*.
> 
> It is similar to my son. No matter how I present to him that he ought to approach something a certain way, he insists on doing it a different way. So, I tell him once. Then, when it backfires, he gets to learn from his mistake. I don't give him the "I told you so" or any such thing. He will have to learn...or not. I can't walk that for him any more than you can for her.


I agree with this, of course, and this is exactly what I'm doing.

I think this thread has gone on for so many pages that the original post has been lost, lol!

I'm done talking about it with her. I'm taking action now. Passive, yes, but it's something. Hope is doing the same thing. We're both very much at the same point - talking, discussion (and in her case, MC) has accomplished nothing.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Thank you. Yes, this is exactly it.
> 
> Some people can handle constructive criticism, some people immediately assume you don't think they're good enough.
> 
> ...


I suspect that your wife and I might be a little similar in this regard. Very good at boundaries, not terribly good at letting other people in.

With that as context, things like "pointing out shortcomings" are a quite different kettle of fish than "wanting to be heard about how you feel". And are very much about telling someone how they should be. 

You say in your previous post that your wife is actually very good at listening to you. Which makes me think even more that your "constructive criticism" is very much focused on her shortcomings over yours. And if she is already compromising to the best of her ability on the sex issue, then maybe she is just as tired of banging her head against that wall as you are.


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

heartsbeating said:


> Gold. Well said.
> 
> 
> That 'some point in life' started occurring for my husband and I when we went to therapy. I didn't realize that that's what was happening at the time... looking back though, that's when life became a lot more interesting; a bit serious at first and slowly evolving to a more light-hearted perspective.


I know this is what my husband loves best about me. He teases me about it, to be sure. Maybe even gets exasperated. But he also says outright (and often!) that no one has ever appreciated him in the way that I do. All just from giving him that same space that I too crave.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> I agree with this, of course, and this is exactly what I'm doing.
> 
> I think this thread has gone on for so many pages that the original post has been lost, lol!
> 
> I'm done talking about it with her. I'm taking action now. Passive, yes, but it's something. Hope is doing the same thing. We're both very much at the same point - talking, discussion (and in her case, MC) has accomplished nothing.


Somewhat similar, but I think in the same way that HDs are told that you can't make their LD spouse want to have sex (which I do agree with, even if it is hard for some HDs to truly understand), the other side of the spectrum (where an HD views sex as an important component to building the emotional connection) is that the LD can't make their SO want to have an emotional connection. Sometimes I get the impression that the HD is still expected to provide all other aspects of a relationship.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > JLD, do you consider that sometimes people are difficult to deal with and have negative parts of their personalities?
> ...


Well, I am not still with the person I got involved with who showed these traits. We were not married yet and I ended the relationship. I am proud of myself, it took until I was in my 40s to learn that I didn't need to accept abuse in a relationship. Now I need to practice looking out for red flags *early* in the dating process and speaking up about mistreatment, and/or walking away from a relationship.

I think often here the big thrust is to stay with your spouse: Do everything you can to work it out (advice often puts complete responsibility for managing a spouse's dysfunction on the other partner). You made vows. It's not that bad if there are other positive traits. Need to stay in the relationship because of finances or children. 

Sometimes advice almost sounds like encouraging the codependent enabling of a toxic person/dynamic. Or puts too much responsibility for it on the person who is on the receiving end of toxic behavior.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Well, I am not still with the person I got involved with who showed these traits. We were not married yet and I ended the relationship. I am proud of myself, it took until I was in my 40s to learn that I didn't need to accept abuse in a relationship. Now I need to practice looking out for red flags *early* in the dating process and speaking up about mistreatment, and/or walking away from a relationship.
> 
> I think often? here the big thrust is to stay with your spouse: Do everything you can to work it out (advice often puts complete responsibility for managing a spouse's dysfunction on the other partner). You made vows. It's not that bad if there are other positive? traits. Need to stay in the relationship because of finances or children.
> 
> Sometimes advice almost sounds like encouraging the codependent enabling of a toxic person/dynamic. Or puts too much responsibility for it on the person who is on the receiving end of toxic behavior.


Livvie, I am really glad you got out of the toxic relationships you were in. I hope you would never think otherwise.

But for people who are not necessarily in a toxic relationship, and who do not want to leave, taking charge by becoming pro-active and seeking to first meet their spouse's perhaps unmet needs can sometimes get the relationship moving in a more positive direction.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I am not still with the person I got involved with who showed these traits. We were not married yet and I ended the relationship. I am proud of myself, it took until I was in my 40s to learn that I didn't need to accept abuse in a relationship. Now I need to practice looking out for red flags *early* in the dating process and speaking up about mistreatment, and/or walking away from a relationship.
> ...


I agree, IF it's an unmet need issue. I've observed that you aren't very open to exploring our considering the fact that sometimes it's not an unmet need issue, but rather a negative personality trait of someone that is causing a relational problem.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I agree, IF it's an unmet need issue. I've observed that you aren't very open to exploring our considering the fact that sometimes it's not an unmet need issue, but rather a negative personality trait of someone that is causing a relational problem.


I tend not to focus on the other person and what he or she could do to improve the relationship because that person is not usually here. 

Also, focusing on how wrong/bad the absent partner is tends to just reinforce the resentment/self-justification often already festering in the partner who is here, which can block the willingness to be pro-active about getting the relationship onto a more positive path. 

That does not mean that sometimes the other partner is not just completely bad news. That absolutely can be the case. If that is my opinion, I am not usually shy about sharing it.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> The last paragraph might be a little idealistic. Perhaps marriages *should* be based on love, not symmetry but are they, in practice?.
> I don’t think there is anything wrong with accepting symmetry as part of successful partnership. It is a form of symbiosis, after all. The ‘symmetry’ does not need to show itself in the same areas however. For Alexm and myself, the desire of our partners may be higher on our ‘list of needs’ while something else might be lower. This ‘something else’ may in turn be higher on our partner’s list of needs while sex is lower. And so on. The symmetry (I prefer the term ‘partner symbiosis’, because this kind of thing cannot be completely symmetrical) is inherently there though.
> 
> Some claim on this thread that they ‘don’t NEED their partner, they WANT to be with their partner’ while at the same time they are convinced that their partner ‘NEEDS them’ (for sex etc). I find it difficult to relate to this mindset because I know that I absolutely NEED to be with my wife (apart from also wanting it) even if I can’t define exactly why. I also feel that my wife absolutely NEEDS me, possibly in slightly other ways than I need her. (And I don’t believe it is only for practical reasons.)
> ...


You were referencing my writings here. 

I think I am definitely an oddball and do not represent the majority of women (or even married people in general).

If my husband left me, I'd feel sad. But devastated? No. Devastated is reserved for when someone dies. If my husband died suddenly I would be Devastated. If he chose to leave me because he felt that he could have a better life without me? I'd be sad that our marriage came to its end, but I would want him to be happy, so I'd let him go. 

"Need" has negative connotations to me. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

kag123 said:


> "Need" has negative connotations to me.


I am not a professional, but I would suspect there is correlation between this and your drive, as it relates to your trauma history.

Do you see it that way?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> IMP, I appreciate it, I really really do. Your insight into this thread has been fantastic and VERY much appreciated.
> 
> But I think you've missed the point where I have spent years doing exactly the above, and this is precisely why I've arrived at my current situation/action. I don't expect you to have read through all my posts over the years (since 2008, holy cripes...!) of course
> 
> Articles (she tends not to read), websites (she tends not to visit), videos (she's watched a few with me, agreed and understood, yet back to the same almost immediately), and too many conversations which tend to wind up making her feel that she's not good enough (not my fault, this is her usual reaction to things. Trust me, I'm easy to talk to). Not to mention a number of questionnaires (5 Love Languages, sexual preferences, etc.) that she never gets around to doing.


I appreciate your appreciation...I rather wish instead I could actually help the situation instead of just contributing...

I have no idea how it's possible that our wives seem to be almost twins in most respects (from your descriptions) yet we seem to get such different results...
My wife also appears to have low self-esteem, she doesn't like watching or reading articles and when confronted with something also often gives me the "I'm not good enough" speech. (I take it as quick self defence, to get me off her back). I am positive something soaks through nevertheless. And we usually reach some sort of middle ground. I personally approach it in a more humorous way, like give her slap on the behind (has to be at the right moment though, apparently it's not always funny when my PIL are visiting or during a parents school meeting...) and tell her "hey how come you are not into me anymore? You are thinking about screwing around with the gardener again, aren't you". And then proceed accordingly. Dressed "up" (down?) as the gardener.

There are many ways to "icebreak" a difficult conversation (or bypass it entirely).

Anyway, good luck with whatever you do!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Well, I am not still with the person I got involved with who showed these traits. We were not married yet and I ended the relationship. I am proud of myself, it took until I was in my 40s to learn that I didn't need to accept abuse in a relationship. Now I need to practice looking out for red flags *early* in the dating process and speaking up about mistreatment, and/or walking away from a relationship.
> 
> I think often here the big thrust is to stay with your spouse: Do everything you can to work it out (advice often puts complete responsibility for managing a spouse's dysfunction on the other partner). You made vows. It's not that bad if there are other positive traits. Need to stay in the relationship because of finances or children.
> 
> Sometimes advice almost sounds like encouraging the codependent enabling of a toxic person/dynamic. Or puts too much responsibility for it on the person who is on the receiving end of toxic behavior.



I think this is a big problem with striving for "unconditional love." It forces spouses to think they have to live with unmet needs to do what's right.

I think there is a middle ground- ask your spouse to meet your needs while you continue meeting theirs and avoiding all lovebusters. If your spouse refuses, prepare to separate. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> "Need" has negative connotations to me.


Early in our relationship, my wife had a Need for me to Need her.

I saw "Need" as a negative as well. I don't want to be dependent on anyone but myself.

We finally resolved the situation by my telling her "I Need you in order to be happy".

That seemed to solve the semantic problem.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> And this is precisely what I'm doing (well, more or less, I suppose).
> 
> I realize that it's probably self-defeating, but I'm at the point where I've quite literally done and tried and said everything, with no headway made. This is about maintaining my sanity and self-respect, as opposed to purposefully doing harm.
> 
> I wonder what it would be like if Hope's husband and my wife were married, lol! Each one with their ridiculously passive 'initiation' and inability to hear what we're saying. I can picture two people in bed, buck naked, in the pitch black, lying awake wondering why the hell he/she isn't picking up on their 'signals'!


Have to find a place with better reception


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> No, it isn't actually. Not everyone here is, or wants to be, just like Dug. Nor do we all want to be married to Dug or anyone Dug-like.
> 
> I bolded the above two words because they contradict each other.
> 
> ...


I often feel like 'I have tried everything'. Then I try something else and...it works. My situation is obviously my situation but we are all stuck in our own ways, just the same as our spouses are stuck in their ways. Someone has to break the vicious circle and do something unexpected. We also have selective memory: we often can only remember what the partner says to us or how their tone or what they say makes us feel but are unable to step outside of ourselves and analyse that what we say or the signals we are giving out are perhaps much more provocative in nature than what we get back.

I dunno. Reading through the thread makes me feel like I am really naive and missing something or haven't reached that stage yet. But I recognise *a lot* of the behaviours described here in my wife. For example when she acts up or gives me the 'whatever I do is not good enough' speech, there are times when I tell her damn right, it is not good enough and she better get her **** together. She tends to snap out of it quicker. They expect you to back off or give them sympathy ('no you are wonderful, doing great') but sometimes taking the counterintuitive route can be a better choice. At the same time I take a mental note: since I know that this usually stems from her insecurity, I try to 'big her up' in other ways, another time, when she would least expect me to. Walking on eggshells could sometimes be misconstrued as passive aggressive.

Essentially this is all a 'cry for help' in a way. I disagree that it's designed to manipulate. Maybe it is but if you *don't get manipulated* then why does it matter? The thing is - and I know this sounds incredibly cliché - but if the underlying care and trust is there, there is no need to take any of this crap personally.

Deep down I think she knows that I will only let her push my buttons so far or I will be 'out of here'. Because I will be. Anyway she used to do a lot of these power games but with time, she more or less grew out of them. Or maybe she feels they have no effect anymore.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PS: I think the "mother & child" dynamic between spouses is a deadly one (referring to some of the previous posts).


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> If my husband left me, I'd feel sad. But devastated? No. Devastated is reserved for when someone dies. If my husband died suddenly I would be Devastated. If he chose to leave me because he felt that he could have a better life without me? I'd be sad that our marriage came to its end, but I would want him to be happy, so I'd let him go.


I also feel this way. I don't think that it's really that great to 'need' someone. I don't 'need' my husband. I LIKE him, I like having him around, I PREFER that he's there, but need??? No. I don't think you can be with someone by choice if you NEED them. And I prefer to be with my husband by choice, not because of need.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I am not a professional, but I would suspect there is correlation between this and your drive, as it relates to your trauma history.
> 
> Do you see it that way?


Trauma history? Sorry, you lost me there...😞

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Trauma history? Sorry, you lost me there...😞
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I think I got you confused with another LD posting on this thread. If so, please accept my apologies.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I also feel this way. I don't think that it's really that great to 'need' someone. I don't 'need' my husband. I LIKE him, I like having him around, I PREFER that he's there, but need??? No. I don't think you can be with someone by choice if you NEED them. And I prefer to be with my husband by choice, not because of need.


"Need" for me is a choice too, in a way. Maybe I am getting hung up on words. 
But for example 'self respect' could supersede this need. If I felt that things deteriorated to the extent that our marriage would be completely broken and I constantly felt mistreated, my self respect would supersede the need to be with her and I would leave her. I would be devastated for a while I am sure but what _needs_ to be done, needs to be done.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Is intimacy a need considering you can't (ethically, morally) get it elsewhere?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I recently spent quite awhile reading @Holdingontoit thread "The immovable object". This gem was buried in there around page 19, and while it was written to Holdings specific circumstances, I think it's worthwhile to share here. 

What I've bolded below is what I strive for in my life - in all aspects, including marriage. My marriage is the "desire". I desire to be with my husband. I hope that he continues to desire to be with me, too. But I do not believe that if our marriage ended that either one of us would be incapable of finding happiness again. Happiness is an individual pursuit, people can aide or detract from that pursuit, but at the end of the day the choice to be the driver of your own life is yours. 

I also teach my kids this way. It is hard not to "attach" to your children, but I am careful to make sure I am not clinging to them, or ascribing my own hopes, dreams, and failed ambitions onto their lives. I will be upset when the day comes that my kids have to leave the nest. I will miss them. But I will not be "devastated". 

"Need" to me is the opposite of desire. I want my husband to desire me - not need me. Need implies a sense of codependency, and that pesky idea of taking responsibility for your spouses feelings, if you believe that you need to provide them happiness. 



DustyDog said:


> Actually, to get to happiness, you have to decide to do it.
> 
> I did a Practicum back in the mid-90s. I counseled patients dying of AIDs. It was surprisingly easy to guide them to happiness.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Sex - is a need for me. But - less - now that I'm old. Once a week is fine. We are high touch - and THAT is a big deal to me. 

I wouldn't be compatible with someone who doesn't like touching/being touched. 





john117 said:


> Is intimacy a need considering you can't (ethically, morally) get it elsewhere?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

john117 said:


> Is intimacy a need considering you can't (ethically, morally) get it elsewhere?


I don't know - I was single for a few years after my first marriage broke up, and after I kicked my current husband out when he cheated I was single for a few months, and didn't feel any kind of void from lack of intimacy. Maybe because my kids were around? I was pretty immersed in them the first time - they were all under 5 - and the second time I was in a lot of IC. I am not a very social person to begin with - I just don't like people very much - and REALLY enjoy my alone time when I get it. I much prefer my husbands company to anyone elses and even though we don't have anywhere near as much sex as I'd like, we are regularly 'intimate' in a lot of ways that aren't really sexual.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

john117 said:


> Is intimacy a need considering you can't (ethically, morally) get it elsewhere?


Yes. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Jerichoholic (Apr 19, 2017)

On how I love your wife and do not know her. I feel the raccoon is her spirit animal and she feels the need to put on many masks in her life. Wake up before the sun and put on her happy work mask for the public, change it to Supermom/nurturing wife mask as she enters the driveway and repeat each day. And even though she is not religious I bet she holds a secret prayer each Monday morning that she will get to make it until the weekend so that she can remove all masks and let go and be herself with her loving husband. Perhaps once a week, a day of your choosing you can send the kids away, have a bath drawn for her when she gets home, and just massage her body with no strings attached. I bet she'd come to daydream about those random days at the start of her week as well. And learn it's ok to let go on another day of the week lol. It sounds like she has the hots for you still after all this time and perhaps the only reason she doesn't flirt with you during the week is because she wouldn't be able to keep her hands off you, and she couldn't handle it if her kids saw her sexual side. It's hard to balance the Madonna and the ***** so to speak for women sometimes and so we just compartmentalize to function. Thank you for being a loving husband to her even though you may not understand her. That is rare these days.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> IMP, I appreciate it, I really really do. Your insight into this thread has been fantastic and VERY much appreciated.
> 
> But I think you've missed the point where I have spent years doing exactly the above, and this is precisely why I've arrived at my current situation/action. I don't expect you to have read through all my posts over the years (since 2008, holy cripes...!) of course
> 
> Articles (she tends not to read), websites (she tends not to visit), videos (she's watched a few with me, agreed and understood, yet back to the same almost immediately), and too many conversations which tend to wind up making her feel that she's not good enough (not my fault, this is her usual reaction to things. Trust me, I'm easy to talk to). Not to mention a number of questionnaires (5 Love Languages, sexual preferences, etc.) that she never gets around to doing.


Because it comes back to that this is not important to her. You are important to her, but she views sex as something to make you happy once in a while. Or to give you, because she knows you want it. She may like it too, but she could live without it, as opposed to you having a higher desire. I kind of compare it to if you loved to watch hockey on tv, and she didn't, but she did it because it would bring you both closer together and she's doing it because she wants to bond with you, make you happy by taking an interest in something you like. But, she's not going to read articles about it, she's not going to watch it on her own, she isn't going to ask you to watch hockey with her, because it's not important to HER. It's important to you, and she will watch it with you, to make you happy.

Like sex. She will do it, because she wants you to be happy, but you will not change this dynamic, me thinks.  If you've been at it for years, maybe just try to look at from this perspective and you won't feel like you need to keep changing or ''working on'' the situation.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> Sex - is a need for me. But - less - now that I'm old. Once a week is fine. We are high touch - and THAT is a big deal to me.
> 
> I wouldn't be compatible with someone who doesn't like touching/being touched.


So it is a need. We will need to revisit the whole neediness train of thought then  

I don't care a lot for touch - the cat is far better at cuddling than any three humans - but there's emotional touch. 

I lost my brother and father at the hayday of wifeys BPD raging season. Zero emotional support as expected. A bit later when the wicked witch of the steppes (my mil) croaked, I graciously put wifey on a plane to her country and sent her there for a month. Let's just say an alligator would have provided better support than her family there.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> So it is a need. We will need to revisit the whole neediness train of thought then
> 
> I don't care a lot for touch - the cat is far better at cuddling than any three humans - but there's emotional touch.
> 
> I lost my brother and father at the hayday of wifeys BPD raging season. Zero emotional support as expected. A bit later when the wicked witch of the steppes (my mil) croaked, I graciously put wifey on a plane to her country and sent her there for a month. Let's just say an alligator would have provided better support than her family there.


How angry are you for this? Don't say you aren't, because your whole plan for revenge stems from anger.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

And it was needy - when I used to pressure M2 into doing more often than she wanted. 





john117 said:


> So it is a need. We will need to revisit the whole neediness train of thought then
> 
> I don't care a lot for touch - the cat is far better at cuddling than any three humans - but there's emotional touch.
> 
> I lost my brother and father at the hayday of wifeys BPD raging season. Zero emotional support as expected. A bit later when the wicked witch of the steppes (my mil) croaked, I graciously put wifey on a plane to her country and sent her there for a month. Let's just say an alligator would have provided better support than her family there.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> How angry are you for this? Don't say you aren't, because your whole plan for revenge stems from anger.


I wasn't expecting any support to be honest, and was not disappointed when none came.

My need for revenge is merely a need for a level playing field, and not something originating out of past anger. Anger is a decent motivator, but anger tends to focus one's attention towards quick action, rather than meticulous planning (my approach).


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> I wasn't expecting any support to be honest, and was not disappointed when none came.
> 
> My need for revenge is merely a need for a level playing field, and not something originating out of past anger. Anger is a decent motivator, but anger tends to focus one's attention towards quick action, rather than meticulous planning (my approach).


What field needs to be leveled? Financial?--doubtful, you seem to both be well off. Familial?--you've said your kids are basically on your side. Romantic?--neither of you seem interested in that at this point in your lives. Companionship?--if how you describe things is true, she doesn't feel the need for any, and you shouldn't have any problems finding some if you require it.

I'm not saying your plan to divorce isn't the right call--it most likely is. I'm just saying let go of the anger. Forgive her, divorce her, and move on.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> What field needs to be leveled? Financial?--doubtful, you seem to both be well off. Familial?--you've said your kids are basically on your side. Romantic?--neither of you seem interested in that at this point in your lives. Companionship?--if how you describe things is true, she doesn't feel the need for any, and you shouldn't have any problems finding some if you require it.
> 
> I'm not saying your plan to divorce isn't the right call--it most likely is. I'm just saying let go of the anger. Forgive her, divorce her, and move on.


Ah, there's more to life than sex, drugs, and rock and roll...

It's all about leveling the experience. Granted, we had 25 decent years but also 10 not decent. I'll never get those 10 years back. It doesn't bother me - now - but I simply want to make sure she understands what's in it for her long term. And why it happened.

Everyone has their Precious. And they get crazy if it's gone. I figure it's an even trade, her Precious lifestyle for my 10 years.

We'll see. Maybe she will surprise me again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I know a bunch of divorced folks. The ones who recognize their contribution to the breakdown - are generally not angry. 

The people who are convinced that they did not contribute to the divorce - tend to remain angry / resentful open ended. 

All J2's BPD rage was driven by either hurt, fear or both. When you understand that - you will understand what happened well enough to - accept it. 




john117 said:


> Ah, there's more to life than sex, drugs, and rock and roll...
> 
> It's all about leveling the experience. Granted, we had 25 decent years but also 10 not decent. I'll never get those 10 years back. It doesn't bother me - now - but I simply want to make sure she understands what's in it for her long term. And why it happened.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> I know a bunch of divorced folks. The ones who recognize their contribution to the breakdown - are generally not angry.
> 
> The people who are convinced that they did not contribute to the divorce - tend to remain angry / resentful open ended.
> ...


BPD rages are driven by - imagine that - BPD. Not by fears or hurt in the conventional sense. They just are. You can remove the existing fears and hurt and guess what. New ones will come.

In other news, the sky is blue.

My friend, I know what happened and why it happened. I'm not worried about who did what to whom. It's all water under the bridge. In a few weeks we'll play the final version of our Monty Hall game, and see what happens.

We now return you to our thread in progress.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> I don't know - I was single for a few years after my first marriage broke up, and after I kicked my current husband out when he cheated I was single for a few months, and didn't feel any kind of void from lack of intimacy. Maybe because my kids were around? I was pretty immersed in them the first time - they were all under 5 - and the second time I was in a lot of IC. I am not a very social person to begin with - I just don't like people very much - and REALLY enjoy my alone time when I get it. I much prefer my husbands company to anyone elses and even though we don't have anywhere near as much sex as I'd like, we are regularly 'intimate' in a lot of ways that aren't really sexual.


Although I've never really been single for longer than a few months at a time, I can vouch for this.

During those times, I can't say that I felt any sort of void or longing or 'need' for intimacy (or sex). I guess it's one of those things that, when it's not available, there's no real need for it? But I do stress, the longest I've gone is ~3 months, so I may not be the best person to comment on this..!

But the issue is that, while with somebody (married or otherwise), it's technically available. It's right there. When you're on your own, it's out of sight, out of mind.

Having it right there, in front of you, and severely limited - sucks.

I think it's worth re-iterating that the real issue is not the quantity of sex I'm having (and I'll include Hope in this) - it's the lack of understanding from our partners as to the importance of it to us. Not just sex, the physical act, but all that goes with it and surrounds it. With, and from, THEM. Not other people - them.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Because it comes back to that this is not important to her. You are important to her, but she views sex as something to make you happy once in a while. Or to give you, because she knows you want it. She may like it too, but she could live without it, as opposed to you having a higher desire. I kind of compare it to if you loved to watch hockey on tv, and she didn't, but she did it because it would bring you both closer together and she's doing it because she wants to bond with you, make you happy by taking an interest in something you like. But, she's not going to read articles about it, she's not going to watch it on her own, she isn't going to ask you to watch hockey with her, because it's not important to HER. It's important to you, and she will watch it with you, to make you happy.
> 
> Like sex. She will do it, because she wants you to be happy, but you will not change this dynamic, me thinks.  If you've been at it for years, maybe just try to look at from this perspective and you won't feel like you need to keep changing or ''working on'' the situation.


I do very much agree with this in the sense that it just isn't that important to her, and you can't make it important to her.

However, his W needs to understand that there is a tradeoff. He can't change who she is, that is understood, but then she needs to accept that on the other side she can't just expect him to be 100% invested in her. I don't mean to say that in a negative sense necessarily, but something has to give. So in Alex's case, you can't expect him to constantly "pursue" his W if she is going to reject him or basically say that she is only open for shop the scheduled day of the week in the calendar. This is similar to my previous post. If you require sex in order to help build the emotional bond with your SO, and sex is just not that important for your SO, then building that emotional bond becomes less important to the other person. In the same way you can't make someone have sex or you don't want them to fake interest in, you can't ask the other person to fake being emotionally connected when the ingredients necessary to maintain that emotional bond aren't there.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> I appreciate your appreciation...I rather wish instead I could actually help the situation instead of just contributing...
> 
> I have no idea how it's possible that *our wives seem to be almost twins in most respects (from your descriptions) yet we seem to get such different results...*
> My wife also appears to have low self-esteem, she doesn't like watching or reading articles and when confronted with something also often gives me the "I'm not good enough" speech. (I take it as quick self defence, to get me off her back). I am positive something soaks through nevertheless. And we usually reach some sort of middle ground. I personally approach it in a more humorous way, like give her slap on the behind (has to be at the right moment though, apparently it's not always funny when my PIL are visiting or during a parents school meeting...) and tell her "hey how come you are not into me anymore? You are thinking about screwing around with the gardener again, aren't you". And then proceed accordingly. Dressed "up" (down?) as the gardener.


You could probably include @Hope1964 's husband and @uhtred 's wife in this, as well, in terms of similarities.

Where you, and they, get different results is because of us, the spouses. We all attack this issue in a very different way. 

But at the end of the day, nothing truly changes, does it?

Look, I get what most people are saying - stop trying to change her! But I don't think that's actually the point. I DO want my wife to be who she is, believe it or not. BUT... and it's a big "but", what I see is something unhealthy.

What I see is a lack of trust from these people towards their partners. Each of the above-mentioned spouses are capable of having sex, good sex, proper intimacy, etc. They have proven it in the past - with us, and with others.

Then in each case, it essentially stops and walls come up. Some, like Hope's husband, you can see how the wall was built, I think. There's a sense of "I get it, I see where this came from and why" - it's essentially nothing more than a defensive wall, purpose-built, with the false-logic of protecting the marriage from future harm. Yet it's unbelievably unhealthy.

In my case, I see _where_ the wall came from, but don't understand _why_. Things went along quite swimmingly for a solid 2 years, until we moved in together. From her POV, I think, it all of a sudden became 'serious', therefore the defences had to come up. You can understand why this would hurt me, personally.

There's little doubt it was protection of herself, as each serious relationship she had had previously ended badly for her.

But we're 9 years in, 7 living together, 5 married. I think I have proven myself over and over again - something I really shouldn't have to do in the first place.

So I'm left with this sense of 'when things weren't serious (to her...) she had zero issues with sex. The instant she viewed this as a serious relationship, that protective wall came up.'

Isn't this backwards?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why do you think you should not have to prove yourself to her? 

Why would you not have to maintain that trust?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> Isn't this backwards?


For men, not necessarily for women it would seem.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Why do you think you should not have to prove yourself to her?
> 
> Why would you not have to maintain that trust?


Because the line between "proving yourself to her" and "winning her" is mighty thin.

Maintaining is not the same as proving.

"Winning" a woman is a fool's errand.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Because the line between "proving yourself to her" and "winning her" is mighty thin.
> 
> Maintaining is not the same as proving.
> 
> "Winning" a woman is a fool's errand.


Well said fsj. Let's keep in mind as well, I get "proving yourself" at the start of the relationship. Obviously both people should be working towards proving themselves to the other. However, if you are in a committed relationship, and assuming there have been no major issues (such as infidelity), someone thinking that their SO needs to continue to "prove/win them over" in perpetuity is asinine. Maintaining on the other hand is important for both people, especially as the relationship matures.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Because the line between "proving yourself to her" and "winning her" is mighty thin.
> 
> Maintaining is not the same as proving.
> 
> "Winning" a woman is a fool's errand.


I think winning and proving are the same. To me, they both mean earning her trust.

And you certainly need to maintain her trust for the rest of the marriage, if you want a fulfilling marriage.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Because it comes back to that this is not important to her. You are important to her, but she views sex as something to make you happy once in a while. Or to give you, because she knows you want it. She may like it too, but she could live without it, as opposed to you having a higher desire. I kind of compare it to if you loved to watch hockey on tv, and she didn't, but she did it because it would bring you both closer together and she's doing it because she wants to bond with you, make you happy by taking an interest in something you like. But, she's not going to read articles about it, she's not going to watch it on her own, she isn't going to ask you to watch hockey with her, because it's not important to HER. It's important to you, and she will watch it with you, to make you happy.
> 
> Like sex. She will do it, because she wants you to be happy, but you will not change this dynamic, me thinks.  If you've been at it for years, maybe just try to look at from this perspective and you won't feel like you need to keep changing or ''working on'' the situation.


Nailed it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> So I'm left with this sense of 'when things weren't serious (to her...) she had zero issues with sex. The instant she viewed this as a serious relationship, that protective wall came up.'
> 
> Isn't this backwards?


Yes. It is.

But this seems pretty common.

Wife is enthusiastic about sex because she wants commitment.

Wife gets desired commitment and, therefore, loses enthusiasm for sex.

I'm pretty certain that this is all subconscious. It's just how women's sexuality works for many. 

So you can either destabilize the relationship to re-initiate the sexual desire.

Or just say "this sucks" and move on.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

john117 said:


> I wasn't expecting any support to be honest, and was not disappointed when none came.
> 
> My need for revenge is merely a need for a level playing field, and not something originating out of past anger. Anger is a decent motivator, but anger tends to focus one's attention towards quick action, rather than meticulous planning (my approach).


When will revenge be wreaked? 

I thought it was supposed to be about now.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> In my case, I see _where_ the wall came from, but don't understand _why_. Things went along quite swimmingly for a solid 2 years, until we moved in together. From her POV, I think, it all of a sudden became 'serious', therefore the defences had to come up. You can understand why this would hurt me, personally.
> 
> There's little doubt it was protection of herself, as each serious relationship she had had previously ended badly for her.
> 
> ...


Part of the reason for the wall, I would guess, is that her need for emotional space got harder to meet once you guys shared physical space. I can relate to that. I'm someone who goes way, way deep into my own head and I *need* to be able to do that enough or I get cranky. We dated and had our own places for 11 years and sex was great. Got married, relocated, bought a house together, had a baby all at once, and things fell apart and didn't get fixed for more than a decade. 

I don't think it has to do with you having to prove yourself. She's just not getting what she needs in order to be sexual in the way she used to be. If she wants to be more sexual again, she'd have to figure out how to do in in the new circumstances you two have now. But what would motivate her to do that?? That's the million dollar question.

As far as proving and maintaining trust? No, my husband has it, no matter what. He earned that. Me treating him bad? That's always on me, and never a consequence of lost trust. 

But then again, I know he's not perfect, so when he messes up, it's not the end of the world, and I know he'll make it right again. 

Trusting him just isn't something I worry about, evaluate, or stress over. It just IS. Even when I'm mad at him, even when I feel I'm not getting a need met in the moment, I still trust him. I don't think he's capable of losing my trust at this point. Even if we got divorced, I'd still trust him. He's just . . . a good man.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex gets this - on some level. He even mentioned that by breaking pattern he might have made A2 anxious and anxiety can be a straight line path to sex. 

So many of us are guilty of using this phrase: destabilize the relationship

I'm more guilty than most. I think it is more precise to say that what is needed is to inject excitement into the R. This can be done by learning something new - especially something difficult - together. Or by breaking pattern. 

Because a tightly scripted pattern - typically creates hyper stability - which is the enemy of passion. It just is. 

I don't think you can have too much financial stability - but you can definitely have too much emotional stability. 





Buddy400 said:


> Yes. It is.
> 
> But this seems pretty common.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Because it comes back to that this is not important to her. You are important to her, but she views sex as something to make you happy once in a while. Or to give you, because she knows you want it. She may like it too, but she could live without it, as opposed to you having a higher desire. I kind of compare it to if you loved to watch hockey on tv, and she didn't, but she did it because it would bring you both closer together and she's doing it because she wants to bond with you, make you happy by taking an interest in something you like. But, she's not going to read articles about it, she's not going to watch it on her own, she isn't going to ask you to watch hockey with her, because it's not important to HER. It's important to you, and she will watch it with you, to make you happy.
> 
> 
> 
> Like sex. She will do it, because she wants you to be happy, but you will not change this dynamic, me thinks.  If you've been at it for years, maybe just try to look at from this perspective and you won't feel like you need to keep changing or ''working on'' the situation.




From his descriptions, I'm pretty sure sex is more interesting to her than a game of hockey..
One thing I noticed is that being at home (I'm also self employed and usually spend couple of weeks home and then couple of week travelling usually). I notice that when I'm around for prolonged time, i feel sexual tension is not quite the same for her and she gets annoyed with me more frequently. When i come back from a trip (or even from meetings etc, as long as I leave the house) there's definitely more desire and interest...(for me it's opposite).
Alexm, have you thought of working from an office instead? Otoh, it doesn't make much sense if she's out all day herself. Nevertheless perhaps having husband at home goes against 'convention'.
I think MEM's theory is correct about distance building desire (though not for me). I wonder how this comes about. Does it mean she's in love with the idea of me? Need to read up on it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> From his descriptions, I'm pretty sure sex is more interesting to her than a game of hockey..
> One thing I noticed is that being at home (I'm also self employed and usually spend couple of weeks home and then couple of week travelling usually). I notice that when I'm around for prolonged time, i feel sexual tension is not quite the same for her and she gets annoyed with me more frequently. When i come back from a trip (or even from meetings etc, as long as I leave the house) there's definitely more desire and interest...(for me it's opposite).
> Alexm, have you thought of working from an office instead? Otoh, it doesn't make much sense if she's out all day herself. Nevertheless perhaps having husband at home goes against 'convention'.
> I think MEM's theory is correct about distance building desire (though not for me). I wonder how this comes about. Does it mean she's in love with the idea of me? Need to read up on it.
> ...


So agree with this. Our marriage sucked so bad. Then my husband took a job in which he had to be away Sun-Thrus for two years. I was home with three young children . . . but I could BREATHE. And then when he came back, my head was in a different place, and I was able to go to him and say, "I'm ready. Let's fix this. " 

Now he works at home, and it's our biggest challenge to our relationship health--but forewarned is forearmed. We work very hard on making the space that we both need to keep the spark and the intimacy alive and well. It's about awareness, communication and EFFORT.

Alex, I've been wondering about the possibility of you changing work so you're away more. What would your marriage be like if you only saw her one or two days a week? Not suggesting anything that radical, but you get the drift.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> So agree with this. Our marriage sucked so bad. Then my husband took a job in which he had to be away Sun-Thrus for two years. I was home with three young children . . . but I could BREATHE. And then when he came back, my head was in a different place, and I was able to go to him and say, "I'm ready. Let's fix this. "
> 
> Now he works at home, and it's our biggest challenge to our relationship health--but forewarned is forearmed. We work very hard on making the space that we both need to keep the spark and the intimacy alive and well. It's about awareness, communication and EFFORT.
> 
> Alex, I've been wondering about the possibility of you changing work so you're away more. What would your marriage be like if you only saw her one or two days a week? Not suggesting anything that radical, but you get the drift.




It's pretty much the main reason why I'm still working (that and setting an example for kids...). My mother always told me that it's not you that makes you interesting to a woman but what you do. She is a skeptic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> When will revenge be wreaked?
> 
> I thought it was supposed to be about now.


Memorial day...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> You could probably include @Hope1964 's husband and @uhtred 's wife in this, as well, in terms of similarities.
> 
> Where you, and they, get different results is because of us, the spouses. We all attack this issue in a very different way.
> 
> ...


I understand where you are coming from. I am just not sure it is also "healthy" to focus on this (arguably) small aspect in your relationship. Bottom line is, she seems to love and care about you. We all have to make compromises here and there. But I don't want to sound like a broken record.



alexm said:


> What I see is a lack of trust from these people towards their partners. Each of the above-mentioned spouses are capable of having sex, good sex, proper intimacy, etc. They have proven it in the past - with us, and with others.
> 
> Then in each case, it essentially stops and walls come up. Some, like Hope's husband, you can see how the wall was built, I think. There's a sense of "I get it, I see where this came from and why" - it's essentially nothing more than a defensive wall, purpose-built, with the false-logic of protecting the marriage from future harm. Yet it's unbelievably unhealthy.
> 
> ...


I am not sure. I think at some point, things just settle down (after the "honeymoon" period ends) and life & things start getting in the way. I don't know whether it's to do with how she views the relationship. It could just be natural development of any relationship.
Honestly, from everything you have written so far that I read (and I haven't gone back to 2008), I can't spot anything "wrong" or very unusual. 
The only "unusual" is how much thought & analysis goes into it all from your side. And I don't mean it in a negative sense.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex gets this - on some level. He even mentioned that by breaking pattern he might have made A2 anxious and anxiety can be a straight line path to sex.
> 
> So many of us are guilty of using this phrase: destabilize the relationship
> 
> ...


This is too simplistic, IMHO. Yes, boredom is the enemy of passion. So is entitlement and taking another person for granted. But these two things can exist with or without stability.

All of my emotional stability is my own, and has nothing to do with my husband. I had it before I met him, and I will continue to have it whether or not he is with me. More, I'm not with him because he provides me with "excitement", but because, very generally speaking, when I'm with him I'm a better and happier person. This is absolutely "hyperstability". But it is not the enemy of passion.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> From his descriptions, I'm pretty sure sex is more interesting to her than a game of hockey..
> One thing I noticed is that being at home (I'm also self employed and usually spend couple of weeks home and then couple of week travelling usually). I notice that when I'm around for prolonged time, i feel sexual tension is not quite the same for her and she gets annoyed with me more frequently. When i come back from a trip (or even from meetings etc, as long as I leave the house) there's definitely more desire and interest...(for me it's opposite).
> Alexm, have you thought of working from an office instead? Otoh, it doesn't make much sense if she's out all day herself. Nevertheless perhaps having husband at home goes against 'convention'.
> I think MEM's theory is correct about distance building desire (though not for me). I wonder how this comes about. Does it mean she's in love with the idea of me? Need to read up on it.
> ...


Hockey was an analogy. 

It's not that important to her. My mom has a saying ''show me where someone spends their time, money and talent, and I'll show you what is important to him/her.'' If someone doesn't want to have sex with you all that much, do you think that's of importance to them? Not that it's meaningless to her or she never wants to have sex, but it's never going to be what he hopes it will be. I think after a while, you either accept that this is the person you're with, or you don't.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There's a lot working against Alex here. 

He wants a very natural thing - which is some variability in their sex life. 

But outside the bedroom I get the sense that he is very patterned. And that - is - inherently hostile to passion. 

Part of this is prioritizing harmony above truth. Teaching the kids that it's ok to reflexively reject criticism is really bad. But that started with the dynamic between Alex and A2. It does mean differentiating traits from choices - but most people can do that. 

Constant spatial presence - plus conflict avoidance - very spark killing. 








GettingIt_2 said:


> So agree with this. Our marriage sucked so bad. Then my husband took a job in which he had to be away Sun-Thrus for two years. I was home with three young children . . . but I could BREATHE. And then when he came back, my head was in a different place, and I was able to go to him and say, "I'm ready. Let's fix this. "
> 
> Now he works at home, and it's our biggest challenge to our relationship health--but forewarned is forearmed. We work very hard on making the space that we both need to keep the spark and the intimacy alive and well. It's about awareness, communication and EFFORT.
> 
> Alex, I've been wondering about the possibility of you changing work so you're away more. What would your marriage be like if you only saw her one or two days a week? Not suggesting anything that radical, but you get the drift.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I do very much agree with this in the sense that it just isn't that important to her, and you can't make it important to her.
> 
> However, his W needs to understand that there is a tradeoff. He can't change who she is, that is understood, but then she needs to accept that on the other side she can't just expect him to be 100% invested in her. I don't mean to say that in a negative sense necessarily, but something has to give. So in Alex's case, you can't expect him to constantly "pursue" his W if she is going to reject him or basically say that she is only open for shop the scheduled day of the week in the calendar. This is similar to my previous post. If you require sex in order to help build the emotional bond with your SO, and sex is just not that important for your SO, then building that emotional bond becomes less important to the other person. In the same way you can't make someone have sex or you don't want them to fake interest in, you can't ask the other person to fake being emotionally connected when the ingredients necessary to maintain that emotional bond aren't there.


I agree with you. I think though it also becomes a point of how the rest of the marriage is. 

I also can't help but think when I read some of these stories on here, that ''LD'' is really code for complacent. Not that LD doesn't exist, but there are quite a few stories on here, where mainly it's the wives who aren't that interested in sex, but want alllllll the other benefits of marriage from their husbands - security, emotional needs met, safety, protection, etc. That's just been an observation to me, reading these types of stories, here. It seems that ''LD'' women weren't LD women when they were in the dating/engagement stage, but after a few years of marriage, kids, etc...then, they 'became' LD. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. Just seems like a pattern, from some of the threads, here. Many of the men are bending over backwards it seems to please their wives in every way possible, but they get little in return. They say love really is about giving without the expectation of receiving, but let's be real. If one person is always the giver, and the other is always the receiver, it will make for a frustrating marriage, thus threads like alex's. If he wasn't frustrated with the situation, he'd not be posting about it. Not saying she never gives to him, but sounds like she gives to him what she wishes to give to him, not necessarily what he truly desires, which is more passion and sex.

So, it definitely would be a problem if you feel as a spouse that you are investing so much into the marriage, and getting little out of it, in terms of your needs.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Hockey was an analogy.
> 
> It's not that important to her. My mom has a saying ''show me where someone spends their time, money and talent, and I'll show you what is important to him/her.'' If someone doesn't want to have sex with you all that much, do you think that's of importance to them? Not that it's meaningless to her or she never wants to have sex, but it's never going to be what he hopes it will be. I think after a while, you either accept that this is the person you're with, or you don't.


People have different ways expressing how they want to play hockey. It doesn't necessarily have to mean they are disinterested or that they have to be interested about this particular aspect in exactly the same way as all the other players. It seems once she is 'game', she's the most capable hockey player in town. If I was her coach, I would give her some credit & concessions for that....as should the whole team (Just to be clear, this analogism is not about gang banging anybody :nerd.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> People have different ways expressing how they want to play hockey. It doesn't necessarily have to mean they are disinterested or that they have to be interested about this particular aspect in exactly the same way as all the other players. It seems once she is 'game', she's the most capable hockey player in town. If I was her coach, I would give her some credit & concessions for that....as should the whole team (Just to be clear, this analogism is not about gang banging anybody :nerd.


lol I agree with you here. But, they ''schedule'' sex to at least have it happen, because she doesn't like to initiate, etc. He doesn't sounds like he likes the scheduling aspect, he wants her to want him and have sex be more spontaneous. I don't blame him, I can't imagine scheduling sex with my fiance someday, but I guess if they don't at least do that, it may never happen. 

This doesn't sound like a discussion that started recently, but it's been ongoing for a few years, and there comes a point when you probably either need to accept that things will only be as good as they are.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> lol I agree with you here. But, they ''schedule'' sex to at least have it happen, because she doesn't like to initiate, etc. He doesn't sounds like he likes the scheduling aspect, he wants her to want him and have sex be more spontaneous. I don't blame him, I can't imagine scheduling sex with my fiance someday, but I guess if they don't at least do that, it may never happen.
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't sound like a discussion that started recently, but it's been ongoing for a few years, and there comes a point when you probably either need to accept that things will only be as good as they are.




I agree but also think there is room and potential for the situation to be 'nudged' slightly. And it only needs to be nudged a tiny bit (like the last few weeks) for Alexm not to focus on it so much anymore.
Maybe some people function better when their life is more 'structured'/scheduled, especially when they are in a 'work' focused mind, week in, week out.
Maybe it's an affliction of every self employed who are not used to 'schedules' 
I dunno. I definitely know where he's coming from. Sometimes I go for long periods where I feel my wife is not on the same 'plane' with me and is more 'absent'/disconnected etc. But sometimes she will say something like 'I don't think you realise that my love is only growing for you' that's completely unlike her and it propels me back to earth (or heaven?).
I mean it's difficult to always send out the right signals, at the right time, especially in a LTR where things tend to get 'monotone' on occasion.
It seems to me he's frustrated cause he knows it's 'all there' but can't always access it 'on demand'. I think if she wasn't 'that into him' (or into it), his tone would be very different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I agree with you. I think though it also becomes a point of how the rest of the marriage is.
> 
> I also can't help but think when I read some of these stories on here, that ''LD'' is really code for complacent. Not that LD doesn't exist, but there are quite a few stories on here, where mainly it's the wives who aren't that interested in sex, but want alllllll the other benefits of marriage from their husbands - security, emotional needs met, safety, protection, etc. That's just been an observation to me, reading these types of stories, here. It seems that ''LD'' women weren't LD women when they were in the dating/engagement stage, but after a few years of marriage, kids, etc...then, they 'became' LD. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. *Just seems like a pattern, from some of the threads, here. Many of the men are bending over backwards it seems to please their wives in every way possible, but they get little in return. *They say love really is about giving without the expectation of receiving, but let's be real. If one person is always the giver, and the other is always the receiver, it will make for a frustrating marriage, thus threads like alex's. If he wasn't frustrated with the situation, he'd not be posting about it. Not saying she never gives to him, but sounds like she gives to him what she wishes to give to him, not necessarily what he truly desires, which is more passion and sex.
> 
> So, it definitely would be a problem if you feel as a spouse that you are investing so much into the marriage, and getting little out of it, in terms of your needs.


Yes, but we also have to remember that this is the internet. And isn't it interesting how all the *posters* are selfless, giving, generous, considerate people doing everything they can to make life wonderful for their spouses. And all the absentee spouses are selfish, entitled people who don't appreciate what they have, refuse to compromise, never give anything, but just take, take, take, all with zero appreciation, and who desperately need to be taught a "lesson".


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Yes, but we also have to remember that this is the internet. And isn't it interesting how all the *posters* are selfless, giving, generous, considerate people doing everything they can to make life wonderful for their spouses. And all the absentee spouses are selfish, entitled people who don't appreciate what they have, refuse to compromise, never give anything, but just take, take, take, all with zero appreciation, and who desperately need to be taught a "lesson".


lol Yes, that's true - it would be nice to be able to see the other side.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> This is too simplistic, IMHO. Yes, boredom is the enemy of passion. So is entitlement and taking another person for granted. But these two things can exist with or without stability.
> 
> All of my emotional stability is my own, and has nothing to do with my husband. I had it before I met him, and I will continue to have it whether or not he is with me. More, I'm not with him because he provides me with "excitement", but because, very generally speaking, when I'm with him I'm a better and happier person. This is absolutely "hyperstability". But it is not the enemy of passion.


I do not see a negative to hyperstability, either. In fact, I think it can allow both parties to more fully explore their sexual fantasies with each other, since the relationship as a whole is not weak or under threat.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I agree but also think there is room and potential for the situation to be 'nudged' slightly. And it only needs to be nudged a tiny bit (like the last few weeks) for Alexm not to focus on it so much anymore.
> Maybe some people function better when their life is more 'structured'/scheduled, especially when they are in a 'work' focused mind, week in, week out.
> Maybe it's an affliction of every self employed who are not used to 'schedules'
> I dunno. I definitely know where he's coming from. Sometimes I go for long periods where I feel my wife is not on the same 'plane' with me and is more 'absent'/disconnected etc. But sometimes she will say something like 'I don't think you realise that my love is only growing for you' that's completely unlike her and it propels me back to earth (or heaven?).
> ...


Access sex on demand? Idk if he wants that, it sounds like he'd just like more spontaneity in his marriage when it comes to sex, and his wife to be more passionate, less scheduled about it. I didn't say she wasn't into him, I just don't think it's of importance on the same level as it is to alex, that's all. 

I think sex should just flow between two people. I get that marriage can bring other details into things, and you just can't have sex whenever you like, but there still should be a natural flow. If the natural flow existed at one point, I wonder what changed, would be my question.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Yes, but we also have to remember that this is the internet. And isn't it interesting how all the *posters* are selfless, giving, generous, considerate people doing everything they can to make life wonderful for their spouses. And all the absentee spouses are selfish, entitled people who don't appreciate what they have, refuse to compromise, never give anything, but just take, take, take, all with zero appreciation, and who desperately need to be taught a "lesson".


Part of my job is to analyze and compare reviews of our designs with actual user interviews and camera observations. For the most part, if our stuff sucks, all three converge pretty well especially with good sample sizes.

I have no doubt this is the case here in tam as well. It's not like Mrs. OP is an angel and Mr. OP paints her as a monster just to vent. 

If you can't read between the lines of many posters, try harder. Even if you scale reality a bit you still get the same answers.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Yes, but we also have to remember that this is the internet. And isn't it interesting how all the *posters* are selfless, giving, generous, considerate people doing everything they can to make life wonderful for their spouses. And all the absentee spouses are selfish, entitled people who don't appreciate what they have, refuse to compromise, never give anything, but just take, take, take, all with zero appreciation, and who desperately need to be taught a "lesson".


Yes, but..................

There's not much reason I could see why someone would go to an anonymous site looking for advice and intentionally misrepresent their side of the story. I can't imagine what the point of that would be. Now, complaining to friends or family and misrepresenting things.... sure.

Also, it's not as if we don't know that this is a dynamic that often plays out IRL; No More Mr. Nice Guy was written for a reason.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> . If the natural flow existed at one point, I wonder what changed, would be my question.


In this case, we know what happened.

2 years, moved in together, stability, NRE gone.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > I agree but also think there is room and potential for the situation to be 'nudged' slightly. And it only needs to be nudged a tiny bit (like the last few weeks) for Alexm not to focus on it so much anymore.
> ...


I seem to recall that things did change. I believe she let him know she had been sort of faking her enjoyment of some sexual activities (a maybe bait and switch type thing) and is now tired of pretending. If I'm wrong please correct me.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Not in this thread, but info. from other discussions.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Part of my job is to analyze and compare reviews of our designs with actual user interviews and camera observations. For the most part, if our stuff sucks, all three converge pretty well especially with good sample sizes.
> 
> I have no doubt this is the case here in tam as well. It's not like Mrs. OP is an angel and Mr. OP paints her as a monster just to vent.
> 
> If you can't read between the lines of many posters, try harder. Even if you scale reality a bit you still get the same answers.


See the thing is that the tendency of people to overestimate their abilities, the amount of their contributions, and the proportion that they give relative to others is very well documented. It is no surprise that an internet forum would re-create this phenomenon. Not to mention that everyone here seems to be in the top 10% financially, supremely attractive, fit, amazing catches, that are all about the giving. 

Not saying it isn't true, it's just little too perfect to be totally believed, if you KWIM. :wink2:


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> IDK, doesn't really sound like responsive desire if she shuts herself down all other times except the one time.
> 
> 
> 
> When you said you tried on Saturday but nada, can you clarify this (i.e. how were you shut down)?




Ummmm weren't you both naked in the shower, and then she initiated by laying naked on the bed?
Dude. You're hot. She likes how you look naked.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> I do not see a negative to hyperstability, either. In fact, I think it can allow both parties to more fully explore their sexual fantasies with each other, since the relationship as a whole is not weak or under threat.


Word! I would never let anyone I didn't trust absolutely and completely into my inner fantasy life.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> See the thing is that the tendency of people to overestimate their abilities, the amount of their contributions, and the proportion that they give relative to others is very well documented. It is no surprise that an internet forum would re-create this phenomenon. Not to mention that everyone here seems to be in the top 10% financially, supremely attractive, fit, amazing catches, that are all about the giving.
> 
> Not saying it isn't true, it's just little too perfect to be totally believed, if you KWIM. :wink2:


Peoples' core narratives don't change much depending on what incidental details they indicate. My story could be believable even if I had no McMansion and my kids went to Podunk State University. 

Does jld's story change much if you add another kid or if Dug is a dentist? 

In surveys we learn to account for bias and other things. Here in tam we learn to focus on what's important.

Generally there is a fudge factor but it's not huge. TBH I tend to believe tam more than real people.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> In this case, we know what happened.
> 
> 2 years, moved in together, stability, NRE gone.


 Yea, it seems to be a pattern with some people. I wonder though, if when you're dating, engaged, etc...and everything is new and exciting, if you start seeing each other in a different way or something, when you marry. And more responsibilities come about, etc. There are a lot of situations where couples become little more than roommates over time. 



Livvie said:


> I seem to recall that things did change. I believe she let him know she had been sort of faking her enjoyment of some sexual activities (a maybe bait and switch type thing) and is now tired of pretending. If I'm wrong please correct me.


Oh, I didn't know that. It honestly just sounds like again, she's not into sex as much as he is, and it's not personal, it's just the way she is. I think that it's a shame that they're basically not sexually compatible, but at some point, you have to accept that, if you want to stay in the relationship.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

How many ladies have experienced this while dating..,
Things seem really great. Until you move in together and you decide nope...not marriage material. Should have just continued dating. Up goes the wall, and keep it light. Move on. It happens. Sometimes women stay, for a lot of reasons. But we do the "not marriage material " evaluations, especially if children are planned.
If they stay, maybe it will get better. Then the kids come. 
Do men do this too? They must...because the signs were always there. Usually.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> From his descriptions, I'm pretty sure sex is more interesting to her than a game of hockey..
> One thing I noticed is that being at home (I'm also self employed and usually spend couple of weeks home and then couple of week travelling usually). I notice that when I'm around for prolonged time, i feel sexual tension is not quite the same for her and she gets annoyed with me more frequently. When i come back from a trip (or even from meetings etc, as long as I leave the house) there's definitely more desire and interest...(for me it's opposite).
> Alexm, have you thought of working from an office instead? Otoh, it doesn't make much sense if she's out all day herself. Nevertheless perhaps having husband at home goes against 'convention'.
> I think MEM's theory is correct about distance building desire (though not for me). I wonder how this comes about. Does it mean she's in love with the idea of me? Need to read up on it.
> ...


I've thought about a career change for a little while now, but I don't think I'm ready to give up what I do. I don't actually work from home, so there's no need for an office, unfortunately.

But you're probably not wrong, though I've never really seen any negativity towards the fact that I'm home before she is, and "always there". I assume she thinks it, but she does seem happy to see me after she's done work.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> There's a lot working against Alex here.
> 
> He wants a very natural thing - which is some variability in their sex life.
> 
> ...


Everything you said is probably correct, except the bolded. I'm neither of those things


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> Yes, but..................
> 
> There's not much reason I could see why someone would go to an anonymous site looking for advice and intentionally misrepresent their side of the story. I can't imagine what the point of that would be. Now, complaining to friends or family and misrepresenting things.... sure.
> 
> Also, it's not as if we don't know that this is a dynamic that often plays out IRL; No More Mr. Nice Guy was written for a reason.


I'd like to point out that my wife is not a monster! :grin2:

She has many, many great qualities and I love her for so many reasons.

It's just this. She totally sucks at this. Argh.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> In this case, we know what happened.
> 
> 2 years, moved in together, stability, NRE gone.


I actually disagree.

I genuinely think that my wife is scared of stability, despite actually desiring it. Her past relationships were stable until they weren't. I don't think she has one foot out the door, so to speak, but she knows where the exit is. Holding back in some areas (like sex and intimacy) ensures that the "inevitable" break up won't hurt so bad. She's been there, done that (haven't we all?). Keeping me at arms length (well, maybe hands).

She's terrified of being hurt, I think. Of giving 100% of herself to anybody. I'm positive she has before, and it hurts that much more when you do.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Livvie said:


> I seem to recall that things did change. I believe she let him know she had been sort of faking her enjoyment of some sexual activities (a maybe bait and switch type thing) and is now tired of pretending. If I'm wrong please correct me.


Yes, oral sex. She still gives it to me (never on it's own, though). I don't ask for it. I'm unsure if she just blurted this out to hurt me at that point (this was ~5 years ago or so) or if she meant it.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Peoples' core narratives don't change much depending on what incidental details they indicate. My story could be believable even if I had no McMansion and my kids went to Podunk State University.
> 
> Does jld's story change much if you add another kid or if Dug is a dentist?
> 
> ...


It may not make a difference whether you live in a McMansion or not, but it's all the difference in the world if you choose to believe all of the observations made here about your role in the decline of your marriage, or your steadfast refusal to accept any of them.

I'm curious. What do you think of all these comments? Are they believable? Focusing on what's important? Or should I simply accept your portrayal? It is, after all, your story to tell. :wink2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Access sex on demand? Idk if he wants that, it sounds like he'd just like more spontaneity in his marriage when it comes to sex, and his wife to be more passionate, less scheduled about it. I didn't say she wasn't into him, I just don't think it's of importance on the same level as it is to alex, that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> I think sex should just flow between two people. I get that marriage can bring other details into things, and you just can't have sex whenever you like, but there still should be a natural flow. If the natural flow existed at one point, I wonder what changed, would be my question.




No I wasn't talking about sex on demand. I meant access to HER (being connected, desired, wanted etc). 
What changed is life happened.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, it seems to be a pattern with some people. I wonder though, if when you're dating, engaged, etc...and everything is new and exciting, if you start seeing each other in a different way or something, when you marry. And more responsibilities come about, etc. There are a lot of situations where couples become little more than roommates over time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hormones. It's just hormones. Doesn't mean there exists incompatibility (or that it exists to such a degree to call it incompatibility).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> It may not make a difference whether you live in a McMansion or not, but it's all the difference in the world if you choose to believe all of the observations made here about your role in the decline of your marriage, or your steadfast refusal to accept any of them.
> 
> I'm curious. What do you think of all these comments? Are they believable? Focusing on what's important? Or should I simply accept your portrayal? It is, after all, your story to tell. :wink2:


The observations about my contributions - or lack thereof - are reasonably valid. However, the gallery failed to understand the overall relationship dynamics. Just like in Alex's case I'm afraid. And many others before him. 

The mind sees what it wants to see. It simplifies - poorly - complex cases.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

crocus said:


> Ummmm weren't you both naked in the shower, and then she initiated by laying naked on the bed?
> Dude. You're hot. She likes how you look naked.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pretty sure it isn't me who you mean to respond to :wink2:


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Hormones. It's just hormones. Doesn't mean there exists incompatibility (or that it exists to such a degree to call it incompatibility).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They're not sexually compatible, in terms of desire, frequency, etc. And someone mentioned that alex mentioned at some other time, that his wife has been faking o's with him. This doesn't sound like compatibility to me.

Hence, the thread, I guess. lol


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> I think sex should just flow between two people. I get that marriage can bring other details into things, and you just can't have sex whenever you like, but there still should be a natural flow. If the natural flow existed at one point, I wonder what changed, would be my question.


One thing that happens, take someone who doesn't have a high drive. When you don't have a lot of other distractions and have the benefit of a new relationship (love hormones, etc...) it is easier to offset your drive at that point. Add in marriage, kids, stresses, and it becomes much easier for the person with the lower drive to deprioritize sex (not even doing so maliciously or b/c they have an issue with their SO). As well, holding onto the notion that it should happen "naturally" can further hinder this, because for many people you aren't in a lot of "natural" positions for this to happen (i.e. perfect example being kids at home, not talking missionary vs doggie style lol). I am not saying that it needs to be forced, but sometimes you need to make it a priority and force the issue. To an extent, I think this is what Alex's W is doing by scheduling, and I actually think there is nothing wrong with this. The key though is being able to find a good balance between the "schedule" and the "natural flow", and I believe that is what Alex is missing (the fact that she shuts him down and rejects him when he tries to go outside of the schedule speaks volumes)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> Pretty sure it isn't me who you mean to respond to :wink2:


Yeah, it was me, lol. Sorry dude!

In reply to that - it wasn't because I'm hot (though I'd like to think so!) or that she was turned on.

I'm over-thinking things, as usual, but I fully believe that, had I made any sexual overtures to her in the shower, nothing would have happened.

My wife is a complicated person (aren't we all?). She absolutely desires to be desired - or rather, expects it. When I show desire in an obvious way, it's almost like a turn-off. When I don't show desire (especially when I "should") it might have the opposite effect.

This has played out over the past two weekends (see the updates I provided, buried somewhere in this thread). When I didn't show any sexual desire for her when she was expecting it, she essentially took the lead in both cases.

In the shower, I would normally be visibly excited :grin2: as well as soap her up, and caress her, etc. This time, I did not show any outward excitement, if you know what I mean, nor did I touch her in a sexual way. I wasn't aloof, either.

I did exactly what I set out to do a couple of weeks ago, and that's not to expect sex, or chase it, and not be resentful or frustrated, or aloof, either.

As it's only been two weeks of this, I've yet to determine if the reaction from her is one of defensiveness or one of actually being turned on because I'm not chasing her.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> Yeah, it was me, lol. Sorry dude!


Phew, I was gonna say, I don't recall you laying naked in the bed waiting for me :redcard:


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> The observations about my contributions - or lack thereof - are reasonably valid. However, the gallery failed to understand the overall relationship dynamics. Just like in Alex's case I'm afraid. And many others before him.
> 
> The mind sees what it wants to see. It simplifies - poorly - complex cases.


You might be confusing "mind" with "internet posts". 

What I saw in that particular exchange was a whole series of observations and suggestions encouraging you to reflect on those complex dynamics of your complex case and and challenged the rosy picture you were painting of yourself vs your wife. 

You say these were mostly valid? So why then the need to reject, deflect, or correct all of them? If I had that many people saying essentially the same thing about me, it would make me at least pause and consider whether I might learn something from that. And if I actually agreed with those observations .... 

What I found most interesting, though, was the bit where people were pushing you to reconsider the need to get revenge on your wife for your lost 10 years, another one that you both rejected and deflected. I'm curious. What did she do to keep you there against your will all that time? Beg you to stay? Threaten you with custody and court battles? Shackle you with ball and chain?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

*Deidre* said:


> They're not sexually compatible, in terms of desire, frequency, etc. And someone mentioned that alex mentioned at some other time, that his wife has been faking o's with him. This doesn't sound like compatibility to me.
> 
> Hence, the thread, I guess. lol


Nope, I never mentioned that, ever. It's other people who have "guaranteed" she's faking orgasms, because how could any woman have real orgasms if they don't like sex and it's so obvious she's faking for my benefit, because all women do this.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Phew, I was gonna say, I don't recall you laying naked in the bed waiting for me :redcard:




Yes I am entertaining at best ha ha. Apologies. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Yes, but we also have to remember that this is the internet. And isn't it interesting how all the *posters* are selfless, giving, generous, considerate people doing everything they can to make life wonderful for their spouses. And all the absentee spouses are selfish, entitled people who don't appreciate what they have, refuse to compromise, never give anything, but just take, take, take, all with zero appreciation, and who desperately need to be taught a "lesson".


Good point and one I think gets lost at times. I don't think it's always intentional just someone gets so frustrated that they only focus on the faults of their partner all the time. I know it helped me when someone on here said look in the mirror yourself. I really saw yes I had legit complaints but I was also failing in ways I didn't see. 

What does crack me up though is studies show like 25% of women orgasm in sex but the wives of the men here are like 100% ha. I love reading she isn't into sex with me anymore even though I give her 5 orgasms at least every time haha.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Eagle3 said:


> What does crack me up though is studies show like 25% of women orgasm in sex but the wives of the men here are like 100% ha. I love reading she isn't into sex with me anymore even though I give her 5 orgasms at least every time haha.


I have seen quite a few guys here comment that their W doesn't or rarely has an O during PIV, but can O via other means (oral, toys, etc...). I believe the 25% figure is related specifically to PIV


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Nope, I never mentioned that, ever. It's other people who have "guaranteed" she's faking orgasms, because how could any woman have real orgasms if they don't like sex and it's so obvious she's faking for my benefit, because all women do this.


Jade was not saying she definitely was faking. She has no way of knowing. She just suggested you consider it.

Alex, remember I asked you why your wife might feel a need to do that? Not saying she is, or does, but I don't think you ever answered.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I have seen quite a few guys here comment that their W doesn't or rarely has an O during PIV, but can O via other means (oral, toys, etc...). I believe the 25% figure is related specifically to PIV


Good point. I wasn't implying this was from the long time posters on here like Alex and such or yourself. More of the drive by ones that come here and are gone. They are usually like my wife sucks is this and that but never say I'm not doing this either. 

I think if you see some admintance of your own faults it's a better version. Instead of hearing I work 60 hours, come home take care of the kids, cook, clean, do the yard work, workout, and give her organs all the time I sometimes think that might not be the full accurate story of what's going on that's all.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Eagle3 said:


> Good point. I wasn't implying this was from the long time posters on here like Alex and such or yourself. More of the drive by ones that come here and are gone. They are usually like my wife sucks is this and that but never say I'm not doing this either.
> 
> I think if you see some admintance of your own faults it's a better version. Instead of hearing I work 60 hours, come home take care of the kids, cook, clean, do the yard work, workout, *and give her organs all the time *I sometimes think that might not be the full accurate story of what's going on that's all.


The real question, who's organs are you giving her lol :grin2:


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ha good old auto correct.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> Nope, I never mentioned that, ever. It's other people who have "guaranteed" she's faking orgasms, because how could any woman have real orgasms if they don't like sex and it's so obvious she's faking for my benefit, because all women do this.


I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms *but still doesn't like sex*. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, *I've doubted that she doesn't like sex*. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


It's the bolded. It doesn't compute because she does not *not* like sex. Alex is frustrated because he feels she lacks spontaneity, during a normal week, and doesn't put sex as high on her list of priorities as he does. *He is not complaining about frequency nor about the quality or whether she enjoys it as much as him.* Unless I missed something.
We have to remember everyone's situation is *truly unique*. While it may 'rhyme' with another poster's situation it is still unique. What tends to happen is that posters tend to get lumped into the same pigeon hole that fits a certain profile. I am not sure how helpful it is because there are a lot of shades of grey for everyone's situation and being a bit more discerning about everyone's individual situation might be more beneficial to posters.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


See, I don't necessarily correlate having an O and liking/not liking sex. She may very well like it, but when she has an O that may be good enough for her for some amount of time (i.e. weekly). I am sure there are many things we all enjoy but doesn't mean we want them all the time. I think this is what confuses an HD about an LD.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


SLA...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Yes, oral sex. She still gives it to me (never on it's own, though). I don't ask for it. I'm unsure if she just blurted this out to hurt me at that point (this was ~5 years ago or so) or if she meant it.


Ask her


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex.


First, it isn't that she doesn't like sex (Alex reports that she is always very into sex when they have it).

Just because she likes sex doesn't mean that she *always wants* to have sex or is willing to have sex at any time. 

I'm an introvert and social gatherings are quite taxing for me.

On the other hand, it's common for me to be the life of the party and appear to be having a great time (and I usually* am* having a great time). However, I can only handle this in limited quantities. Too many parties and I'd be mentally exhausted.

So, how can I enjoy parties and not want to go to them all the time?

I think these "she has orgasms and therefore should want to have sex all the time" or "if she doesn't want to have sex all the time, she must not be having orgasms" memes can lead to misunderstanding the nature of the problem.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I am sure there are many things we all enjoy but doesn't mean we want them all the time. I think this is what confuses an HD about an LD.


Of course. I'm sure most people can think of several things like this.

And then there's this: My wife feels absolutely wonderful after going to the gym and talks about how she should do it at lot more. The next time comes and it takes a crowbar to get her off the couch.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In trying to help Alex figure this out, I think it's good to keep in mind he said it's not just sex his wife shuts down except for that one small window of time a week, it's all of the "extras" that usually accompany a full sexual relationship she shuts down too, such as flirting, anticipation, etc. They are like asexual beings except for an hour a week, per her control.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think often people don't really know what their partners see wrong in them. They focus on their own positives because those are what they are aware of, but honestly don't put much weight on their failures. 

if my wife were here she would say that she works a good job, cleans, shares chores spends lots of time with me, enjoys all sort of things that I enjoy. She probably wouldn't even mention our sex life because she considers that a trivial issue. 




Eagle3 said:


> Good point and one I think gets lost at times. I don't think it's always intentional just someone gets so frustrated that they only focus on the faults of their partner all the time. I know it helped me when someone on here said look in the mirror yourself. I really saw yes I had legit complaints but I was also failing in ways I didn't see.
> 
> What does crack me up though is studies show like 25% of women orgasm in sex but the wives of the men here are like 100% ha. I love reading she isn't into sex with me anymore even though I give her 5 orgasms at least every time haha.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The seems remarkably common. As far as I can tell my wife almost always has an O - we use toys / vibrators are part of our sex play. But she very rarely wants sex. 

I think that for some an orgasm is sort of mechanical. Many straight men would have an O if given a BJ by another man. That doesn't mean that they enjoy it - its just a mechanical response. Many women may be similar - the right physical stimulation will cause them to O, but it doesn't mean that they particularly enjoy the experience.

The problem is that I don't really know. I simply cannot put myself in the mindset of not enjoying sex with the person I love, if that person is making an effort to please me. All I can do is try too imagine some other situation which is physically pleasurable but not enjoyable. 

There was a female poster here who described that she didn't want an orgasm as part of sex. 




Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> In trying to help Alex figure this out, I think it's good to keep in mind he said it's not just sex his wife shuts down except for that one small window of time a week, it's all of the "extras" that usually accompany a full sexual relationship she shuts down too, such as flirting, anticipation, etc. They are like asexual beings except for an hour a week, per her control.


I am still suspicious of this "control" idea. It tends to set up a perpetrator/victim frame. And that can lead to resentment rather than understanding and empowerment.

But if it is indeed a control issue, it is helpful to remember that people are usually controlling because they do not feel safe. So a quick way to start resolving the issue would be to take an honest look at *why* they would not feel safe, through their eyes, and what the other partner could do to make them feel safe.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> But if it is indeed a control issue, it is helpful to remember that people are usually controlling because they do not feel safe. So a quick way to start resolving the issue would be to take an honest look at *why* they would not feel safe, through their eyes, and what the other partner could do to make them feel safe.


A: It is control. 
B: What probably makes her feel not safe is not being in control. Which is why I suggested a negotiated amount per month or whatever of not being in control. My wife once decided to give up control and respond whenever I initiated and whenever she wanted to as well. Within a couple months she realized that wasn't going to work with the comment "no matter how much it is not enough". Well no, actually it was enough but there is no amount you can offer that will result in me turning you down - there is a difference.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


See, for me orgasms and my sex life with my husband are things that can exist in separate realms. No matter what my sex life with my husband has been like, my dose of orgasm wasn't affected. If I want one, I can have one. 

But liking sex is a different matter. I didn't like it for a period of time with my husband, but it had little to do with whether or not I liked orgasm (which I do, a lot.)

And now that sex with my husband is something that I want and need, it has little to do with whether or not I orgasm during sex with him (which I do sometimes, and sometimes not, but never because I can't.)

(I'm coming to realize that the relationship between female orgasm and sex is really different for different women. But it does seem to almost always be important for the man's enjoyment.)





uhtred said:


> The seems remarkably common. As far as I can tell my wife almost always has an O - we use toys / vibrators are part of our sex play. But she very rarely wants sex.
> 
> I think that for some an orgasm is sort of mechanical. Many straight men would have an O if given a BJ by another man. That doesn't mean that they enjoy it - its just a mechanical response. Many women may be similar - the right physical stimulation will cause them to O, but it doesn't mean that they particularly enjoy the experience.
> 
> ...


For me, not all orgasm are created equal. They are simply a physical release sometimes, other times they are part of our sex "play," other times they are a very intense part of our emotional bonding during sex. They have little to do (for me--not speaking for other women here) with my sex life with my husband. My pleasure in that has almost exclusively to do with . . . well, his pleasure. I get off on him getting off, to be blunt. I get actual sexual pleasure out of, say, giving him a blow job. It's different than the physical pleasure I get from an orgasm, and also more intensely sexually pleasurable. 

I can't figure out if I'm just kinked way different than most women, or if because I can "afford" to see orgasm as separate from sexual pleasure because orgasms aren't ever something I see as something I have to "get" during sex. 

I do know that if my husband expected me to orgasm or pressured me to or didn't let me just please him during sex, then I'd get less enjoyment out of sex. Might feel like I had to fake them because of my "need" for him to be sexually satisfied in order for me to "get off" on sex. 

When you're dependent on your partner's sexual pleasure for your OWN sexual pleasure, it can complicate things.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> A: It is control.
> B: What probably makes her feel not safe is not being in control. Which is why I suggested a negotiated amount per month or whatever of not being in control. My wife once decided to give up control and respond whenever I initiated and whenever she wanted to as well. Within a couple months she realized that wasn't going to work with the comment "no matter how much it is not enough". Well no, actually it was enough but there is no amount you can offer that will result in me turning you down - there is a difference.


I think the only way to effectively help someone overcome control issues is to help them feel safe enough to willingly and wholeheartedly give up perceived control. And the only effective way I know of doing that is to earn their trust.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

anonmd said:


> A: It is control.
> B: What probably makes her feel not safe is not being in control. Which is why I suggested a negotiated amount per month or whatever of not being in control. *My wife once decided to give up control* and respond whenever I initiated and whenever she wanted to as well. Within a couple months she realized that wasn't going to work with the comment "no matter how much it is not enough". Well no, actually it was enough but there is no amount you can offer that will result in me turning you down - there is a difference.


That is interesting. She didn't find not being in control to be a relief?

See for me, it was about control and always wanting control. The more control I had, the less happy and less safe I felt. But at the time I was sure it was what kept me safe. But "safe" meant at arms length from intimacy, really. 

I did give up control, and not having choices feels a lot safer to me. Just getting to the point where I was miserable enough to say to my husband, "Please help me, I'm so unhappy," was the hard part. And trusting him enough to take that control and not abuse it took some time. And he also had to learn how to navigate not letting me take control in way that was destructive to me/our marriage vs. knowing when I really needed what I said I needed. Lots of deep communication and trust and a willingness to forgive mis-steps along they way as we learned together. 

It's hard to be THAT vulnerable with another person though. Do you think your wife just couldn't go all the way with giving up control, or that she really isn't unhappy having the control after all?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


While I would want to agree with you on this, my wife displays the same phenomenon in this regard just as @alexm wife likely does. Not only is my wife orgasmic, but she often enjoys being multiorgasmic and describes that each one gets stronger and stronger exponentially so. But on the average day she has virtually no motivation to enjoy that, and she will quickly tell you that sex is just not that important to her. 

One thing I have picked up on here recently is that when sex is super awesome, it often leaves my wife feeling guilty and/or a little ashamed of herself. When I ask her why she says she feels as if it is wrong and that it should not feel that good. Almost as if she feels undeserving to experience that level of pleasure. 

I also know my wife really likes to be in control when in comes to sex in our marriage with regards to when, where, and how often. Part of me thinks that if she really embraces enjoying sex and started wanting it more often, that she would effectively loose control and become subject to me rejecting her. While I am always eager to please, I am not always receptive to uncontrollably wanting to be pleased myself. For whatever reason my wife receives 100% of her sexual validation by making me completely loose control to the point I have to have it, and over our marriage she has learned the ideal frequency at which this occurs. 

So I don't know if that offers some insight for you and Alex, but it may shed some light on the dynamics of why a wife can go crazy in bed and then care less about it for days afterwards.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Eagle3 said:


> Good point and one I think gets lost at times. I don't think it's always intentional just someone gets so frustrated that they only focus on the faults of their partner all the time. I know it helped me when someone on here said look in the mirror yourself. I really saw yes I had legit complaints but I was also failing in ways I didn't see.
> 
> What does crack me up though is studies show like 25% of women orgasm in sex but the wives of the men here are like 100% ha. I love reading she isn't into sex with me anymore even though I give her 5 orgasms at least every time haha.





Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


She likes sex - she does not like sexuality. Does that make sense? (honestly asking). She is simply not a sexual person, and in truth, she never really was. It was masked by us actually having sex regularly, and without a schedule. But in retrospect, even when things were "good", she never initiated in a sexual way. For her, it's very much get down to business.

One thing I've learned here is that each and every woman orgasms differently, orgasms from different things, does not orgasm from other things, etc etc etc. My wife clearly knows her body and what gets her there (which is not much, TBH - physically). The mental aspect is what's missing in her case, save for one small window per week.

Some women absolutely require total mental stimulation to orgasm. Others do not. It's that simple.

The ability for a woman to orgasm is not at all dependent on whether she's hyper-sexual or not.

As well, a woman (or man) can certainly enjoy something they do not have an overwhelming urge to do. Most of us, myself included, view something like sex as being totally awesome, so why not have it twice a day? Anon, I'm with you on that. It's not logical in our view. But not everybody thinks like we do.

The logic behind some responses implies that it's all for show, it's fake, it's not possible. Come on, now.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> Ask her


That's how I learned she dislikes it very much, so... no. I've left it in her hands, and it hasn't stopped, so I have no complaints. It'll never happen on it's own, and I'll live. It's a non-issue, and shouldn't have been brought up in this thread, nor have the whole 'fake orgasms' stuff. We're going off the rails, here.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> First, it isn't that she doesn't like sex (Alex reports that she is always very into sex when they have it).
> 
> Just because she likes sex doesn't mean that she *always wants* to have sex or is willing to have sex at any time.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more, and that's also a great analogy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> When you're dependent on your partner's sexual pleasure for your OWN sexual pleasure, it can complicate things.


This could be the subject of its own very interesting thread, GI.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> I am still suspicious of this "control" idea. It tends to set up a perpetrator/victim frame. And that can lead to resentment rather than understanding and empowerment.
> 
> But if it is indeed a control issue, it is helpful to remember that people are usually controlling because they do not feel safe. So a quick way to start resolving the issue would be to take an honest look at *why* they would not feel safe, through their eyes, and what the other partner could do to make them feel safe.


Believe me, I've addressed this.

I've never for a second thought that *I* was any part of her not feeling safe. I've asked her directly about this. I've even gone so far as to ask her best friend - somebody who has known her longer than I have.

The reality is, best I can tell, is that she has had bad experiences with long term relationships. No abuse (definitely not physical). As I've mentioned here before, her last ex before me had major trust issues. His ex wife cheated on him, and he brought that mindset into the relationship with my now wife. Controlling and jealous. The other major relationship she had, he cheated on her, apparently repeatedly. So, IMO, the only two major relationships she had before me were completely sunk because of trust issues (and technically, trust issues around sex, to be exact).

I have little doubt that in both of those relationships, she probably DID give herself to them completely - as one should, therefore multiplying the 'hurt' factor 10-fold when they went south.

In any case, she has said she feels safer, more secure, and more loved and cherished with me than she ever has before.

And perhaps that's my downfall, ironically enough (and has been pointed out by some pretty smart people here).

Which is why I'm moving to destabilize the relationship just a teensy bit.

Security and safety are paramount to a relationship's success, of that there is no doubt. But too much of that, and the need to mate-guard, or otherwise ensure the 'excitement' continues is lost. It happens a LOT, we all see it every day here on TAM. Get that spark back, or destabilize the relationship. I've tried the former, many, many times. This is my first foray into the latter.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

jld said:


> This could be the subject of its own very interesting thread, GI.


Really? It seems pretty basic to me that mutual pleasure completes with selfish pleasure in everything from emotional needs to sexual needs in a bonded couple. It's the whole idea of "dependency" all over again. In highly intimate relationships, there seems to be a natural conflict between the pleasure of having one needs met and the pleasure of meeting the needs of our partners. When the pendulum swings too far one way, there will eventually be a conflict that either leads to correction . . . . or not.

I think in a couple that in intentional about their intimacy, there still might be lots of conflict, but a much higher incidence of correction. It's about staying "in tune" with the intimacy and health of the relationship, and prioritizing it above either person's individual needs.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Believe me, I've addressed this.
> 
> I've never for a second thought that *I* was any part of her not feeling safe. I've asked her directly about this. I've even gone so far as to ask her best friend - somebody who has known her longer than I have.
> 
> ...


Anything with the word "destabilizing" in it sounds risky to me. What if she does not respond the way she did the last two times? What if she just stops trying?

As to her insecurity from her past . . . what would concern me if I were you, Alex, is why, if you are a much better guy than those two previous ones (and I am sure you are), she is not able to overcome any possible fear? Was there just more "raw" attraction with the first two, and with you it is more a "mature" attraction? Could that explain the lack of spontaneity?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

badsanta said:


> While I would want to agree with you on this, my wife displays the same phenomenon in this regard just as @alexm wife likely does. Not only is my wife orgasmic, but she often enjoys being multiorgasmic and describes that each one gets stronger and stronger exponentially so. But on the average day she has virtually no motivation to enjoy that, and she will quickly tell you that sex is just not that important to her.
> 
> One thing I have picked up on here recently is that when sex is super awesome, it often leaves my wife feeling guilty and/or a little ashamed of herself. When I ask her why she says she feels as if it is wrong and that it should not feel that good. Almost as if she feels undeserving to experience that level of pleasure.
> 
> ...


Fascinating, honestly.

She has hinted at something like this in the past. I'm a giver in the bedroom, there's no doubt about it. I don't make it ALL about her, but I think I used to tread that fine line a little too much.

I enjoy giving, sexually, because I get off on it. I'm not doing it for her, so much as I'm doing it for me. This is a hard concept for many people to grasp. It's not AT ALL about ego for me, either. "I can get any woman off multiple times because I'm sooo good in bed and such a giver!" Totally not that. I genuinely get off on getting a woman off. Whatever.

Anyway, at some point she told me straight up that she doesn't want it to be all about her - that she wants ME to enjoy myself. My response was that I AM, very much so. Her response to my response was that she didn't feel like it. I asked her for suggestions. She said she wanted me to occasionally show her that it's only about me - that I just wanted to get off, and to not worry about her.

I spent a while doing just that, intermittently. She had no complaints. Neither did I, TBH, but it's not "me". I can't explain why. Having quick, sweaty banging sessions like that is perfectly fine when the kids are downstairs and we only have a few minutes. Doing this when we have all the time in the world? Didn't sit well with me.

I fully admit that I've let this aspect of our sex life go. I can't say that I spend all my time on pleasing her and make it all about her, but from her POV, I am.

Could this be as simple as her simply wanting me to bang her every now and again?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Really? It seems pretty basic to me that mutual pleasure completes with selfish pleasure in everything from emotional needs to sexual needs in a bonded couple. It's the whole idea of "dependency" all over again. In highly intimate relationships, there seems to be a natural conflict between the pleasure of having one needs met and the pleasure of meeting the needs of our partners. When the pendulum swings too far one way, there will eventually be a conflict that either leads to correction . . . . or not.
> 
> I think in a couple that in intentional about their intimacy, there still might be lots of conflict, but a much higher incidence of correction. It's about staying "in tune" with the intimacy and health of the relationship, and prioritizing it above either person's individual needs.


Like I said, I think it could be an interesting thread.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> Anything with the word "destabilizing" in it sounds risky to me. What if she does not respond the way she did the last two times? What if she just stops trying?
> 
> As to her insecurity from her past . . . what would concern me if I were you, Alex, is why, if you are a much better guy than those two previous ones (and I am sure you are), she is not able to overcome any possible fear? Was there just more "raw" attraction with the first two, and with you it is more a "mature" attraction? Could that explain the lack of spontaneity?


Possibly. It happens. Women tend to be drawn to challenges, and I can't say I'm a challenge.

I would actually say the second one (the most recent LTR), there wasn't a raw attraction. If anything, he probably offered stability, which by that point in her life, was the most important thing. Like me, he had been married before (which shows stability), had kids (ditto), worked hard, etc etc etc. Both he and I came from cheating ex wives - so the divorces weren't "our fault".

Difference is, he lost his ability to trust because of it. I did not. Therefore I win the 'stability challenge', lol!

But yes, I've always known full-well that physical attraction was not why she started dating me. I'm a decent enough looking guy, in okay shape, etc etc etc. But at the age that we started dating, neither gender puts all that much emphasis on the physical side of things, I think in general. If I was fugly, I wouldn't have got very far, but I'm not. I'm also not exactly eye-candy, either, though!

As for raw attraction, I can't change the way I look (to a point), but I can change how I approach things. Which is what I'm doing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Anyway, at some point she told me straight up that she doesn't want it to be all about her - that she wants ME to enjoy myself. My response was that I AM, very much so. Her response to my response was that she didn't feel like it. I asked her for suggestions. She said she wanted me to occasionally show her that it's only about me - that I just wanted to get off, and to not worry about her.


GI, does this sound like you and your husband? I think you have made comments like this.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> It's hard to be THAT vulnerable with another person though. Do you think your wife just couldn't go all the way with giving up control, or that she really isn't unhappy having the control after all?


Dunno, the ball is in her court. I've tried for quite a while (as in a number of years) and concluded (and she specifically and verbally agreed) that she HAS TO HAVE control. So control she has, I no longer initiate at all. Can't tolerate beating my head against that wall. 

It is coming around to time for an annual performance review, LOL. I don't disagree with your post, she is a generally unhappy person in regards to some other areas of her life and has had some health issues + menopause which are generally adding to the issue. So it is hard to tease out what is what.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Possibly. It happens. Women tend to be drawn to challenges, and I can't say I'm a challenge.
> 
> I would actually say the second one (the most recent LTR), there wasn't a raw attraction. If anything, he probably offered stability, which by that point in her life, was the most important thing. Like me, he had been married before (which shows stability), had kids (ditto), worked hard, etc etc etc. Both he and I came from cheating ex wives - so the divorces weren't "our fault".
> 
> ...


Totally agree. And there are things a man can do that can spark raw attraction.

Look, Alex, I just don't want you accidentally messing things up for yourself and her, you know? Like I said, anything with the word "destabilizing" in it just sounds risky to me.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> could this be as simple as her simply wanting me to bang her every now and again?


yes for the love of god yes!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Dunno, the ball is in her court. I've tried for quite a while (as in a number of years) and concluded (and she specifically and verbally agreed) that she HAS TO HAVE control. So control she has, I no longer initiate at all. Can't tolerate beating my head against that wall.
> 
> It is coming around to time for an annual performance review, LOL. I don't disagree with your post, she is a generally unhappy person in regards to some other areas of her life and has had some health issues + menopause which are generally adding to the issue. So it is hard to tease out what is what.


Is she actually happy being the initiator? Or you think it is just because that way she does not have to have sex if she does not want to?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


Hi. Nice to meet you. I can O "regularly" (read: every time we have sex) and it does not make me want them any more frequently. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

alexm said:


> I fully admit that I've let this aspect of our sex life go. I can't say that I spend all my time on pleasing her and make it all about her, but from her POV, I am.
> 
> Could this be as simple as her simply wanting me to bang her every now and again?


She may feel uncomfortable in the event you come across as if she has to enjoy herself in order for you to feel satisfied and happy. She may enjoy more when her pleasure just happens spontaneously as a result of you enjoying yourself or her choosing to enjoy herself.

I have a policy now that I don't do anything for my wife's pleasure until she asks. I actually enjoy her asking and it works out very well for her because she no longer feels pressured to enjoy herself. And while sometimes she has the potential to enjoy so much more, she sometimes just wants to keep things simple and natural as possible.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

jld said:


> GI, does this sound like you and your husband? I think you have made comments like this.


Depends on the context. I have a pretty deep kink for being "used" sexually. Not sure Alex's wife is in that camp. And she doesn't have to be in order to want to have some of the pressure to receive pleasure be off of her--if not in general, then at least on occasion. 

I'm also someone who would respond positively to Alex's plan to "destabilize." It's not threatening to me because I don't see it as a deterrent to intimacy. I see what he is doing as being very much about him stepping up and insuring that intimacy is kept alive and well. I like that initiative because it shows a willingness to lead and to not respond to a problem with a "wait and see" or other passive approach. Other women feel differently about it. 

At any rate, I think getting hung up on the word choice is not in keeping with Alex's intent. He is not trying to destabilize the overall security of his marriage. Quite the opposite, in fact. I see his intent as purely protective. Doing NOTHING would be more of threat to their intimacy, and therefore the strength of their marriage.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> All I can do is try too imagine some other situation which is physically pleasurable but not enjoyable.


How about eating ice cream, or cake, or candy, or cookies, or mashed potatoes and gravy, or fettuccini alfredo? Anything delicious but fattening or that clogs your arteries. Someone might enjoy the taste and texture while it is in their mouth, but if you asked them the next day to join you in having another serving they would yell at you that you are ridiculous and must not love them because you are trying to make them fat or have a heart attack.

Saying "but you seemed to enjoy the serving you had yesterday" is not going to motivate them to consent to partaking again today.

And just like fattening foods, learning WHY they don't want to have another serving might not provide any means to overcome their objection. Not everyone who likes fettuccini alfredo with heavy cream and parmesan cheese is going to enjoy the low-fat low-calorie version. They might want the "real thing" once a month or once a every instead. Sad if their partner can't be happy without daily doses of alfredo sauce.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> I am still suspicious of this "control" idea. It tends to set up a perpetrator/victim frame. And that can lead to resentment rather than understanding and empowerment.
> 
> But if it is indeed a control issue, it is helpful to remember that people are usually controlling because they do not feel safe. So a quick way to start resolving the issue would be to take an honest look at *why* they would not feel safe, through their eyes, and what the other partner could do to make them feel safe.


That is good advice. In some cases though, what they fear is that you would leave them if they refused to have sex with you. The only way you can prove you won't leave over a lack of sex is for them to continually refuse to have sex and you stay with them. Which ends up with the LD continuing to live in fear of abandonment (because no matter how many years you stay, you MIGHT leave tomorrow, so the anxiety never disappears), and the HD is a seething ball of frustration and resentment.

Knowing what they fear and why does not always provide a solution. But NOT knowing makes finding a solution almost impossible. So knowing is better.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

@alexm

For real question out of sheer curiosity:

Are these threads on TAM at all like the conversations you have with your wife? Like, do "issues" get hashed out in this long, meandering type way or do things get talked about briefly and shelved?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Is she actually happy being the initiator? Or you think it is just because that way she does not have to have sex if she does not want to?


Unknown at this point. At times she appears happy with the arrangement and has sex more often and more consistently then she would otherwise. 

At various times she had complained about feeling 'pressured', there is no pressure now. I'd guess that makes her 'happy' but she hasn't said that. She never had sex when she didn't want to. At least not in say the last 10 years. I'd say she probably IS having sex now at times when she 'doesn't want to' but she's not unhappy about it. 

But then the health issues and the menopausal things pop up. In other words, she was going along for 3 or 4 months and then it stops again. Got to the point I was ready to pull my hair out (what little there is left  ) and have another confrontation about the whole situation. But I held back and eventually is an indication that it is these others issues flaring back. So, I have no conclusions. More time needed:sleeping:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> That is good advice. In some cases though, what they fear is that you would leave them if they refused to have sex with you. The only way you can prove you won't leave over a lack of sex is for them to continually refuse to have sex and you stay with them. Which ends up with the LD continuing to live in fear of abandonment (because no matter how many years you stay, you MIGHT leave tomorrow, so the anxiety never disappears), and the HD is a seething ball of frustration and resentment.
> 
> Knowing what they fear and why does not always provide a solution. But NOT knowing makes finding a solution almost impossible. So knowing is better.


There has to be a Win/Win in there somewhere. Maybe stressing how parting ways would benefit each partner, leaving each one free to find a more compatible companion in the future?

_A generous settlement for the LD might help, too . . ._


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Unknown at this point. At times she appears happy with the arrangement and *has sex more often and more consistently then she would otherwise*.
> 
> At various times she had complained about feeling 'pressured', there is no pressure now. I'd guess that makes her 'happy' but she hasn't said that. She never had sex when she didn't want to. At least not in say the last 10 years. *I'd say she probably IS having sex now at times when she 'doesn't want to' but she's not unhappy about it. *
> 
> But then the health issues and the menopausal things pop up. In other words, she was going along for 3 or 4 months and then it stops again. Got to the point I was ready to pull my hair out (what little there is left  ) and have another confrontation about the whole situation. But I held back and eventually is an indication that it is these others issues flaring back. So, I have no conclusions. More time needed:sleeping:


It sounds like she does need to feel in charge of her decision to have sex to feel good about it. And giving her that freedom appears to be a win for you.

Good luck with the health/menopausal issues. I am sure that menopause can be a bumpy ride for both partners . . .


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

All analogies to sex fail in some way or the other.

Yours is a good one, but in this case the objection to ice cream is the long term health effects - something sex doesn't have. Still, its as good an analogy as any. 

Sadly, its considered terribly immoral to have an ice cream cone with someone other than your spouse, and some will consider you to be a terrible person if you enjoy anythign other than vanilla ice cream...





Holdingontoit said:


> How about eating ice cream, or cake, or candy, or cookies, or mashed potatoes and gravy, or fettuccini alfredo? Anything delicious but fattening or that clogs your arteries. Someone might enjoy the taste and texture while it is in their mouth, but if you asked them the next day to join you in having another serving they would yell at you that you are ridiculous and must not love them because you are trying to make them fat or have a heart attack.
> 
> Saying "but you seemed to enjoy the serving you had yesterday" is not going to motivate them to consent to partaking again today.
> 
> And just like fattening foods, learning WHY they don't want to have another serving might not provide any means to overcome their objection. Not everyone who likes fettuccini alfredo with heavy cream and parmesan cheese is going to enjoy the low-fat low-calorie version. They might want the "real thing" once a month or once a every instead. Sad if their partner can't be happy without daily doses of alfredo sauce.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Does your partner know that you enjoy this? Nothing wrong with enjoying being "used" but its the sort of thing you have to tell your partner or they may end up doing exactly the wrong thing to make you happy.



GettingIt_2 said:


> Depends on the context. I have a pretty deep kink for being "used" sexually. Not sure Alex's wife is in that camp. And she doesn't have to be in order to want to have some of the pressure to receive pleasure be off of her--if not in general, then at least on occasion.
> 
> snip


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So this is my husband initiating:

Last night he just went to bed. Without telling me. So I'm watching TV and suddenly realized, where the hell IS he? So I go upstairs and he's in bed. Reading. I ask him what he's doing and he says "I thought I'd go to bed early for you". I'm thinking, for ME?!?!?! OK whatever. At this point I am not thinking sex at all - I have no idea what he's doing. I tell him not to do it for me but to do whatever he wants, and I go back and watch some more TV for 20 minutes or so. He just stays there. I go to bed in a while and he's still reading so I start reading, and after a few minutes he stops reading and starts stroking my arm. He NEVER does this. This is where I realize what he's doing. I say nothing and keep reading. After about ten minutes of this (yes really) I ask him what's going on. He says he's just making me feel good. I say "OK" and keep reading. He says nothing whatsoever to me except to answer my questions. Just keeps stroking my arm. It's ****ing weird. He says NOTHING and does nothing but just stroke my arm. Finally I roll over and keep reading and he rolls over and goes to sleep.

Taken in isolation this incident sounds like I am just a ***** and I'm sure some of you will label me as such. Thats OK, I am a ***** in a lot of ways. This quote pretty much sums it up.



john117 said:


> The observations about my contributions - or lack thereof - are reasonably valid. However, the gallery failed to understand the overall relationship dynamics. Just like in Alex's case I'm afraid. And many others before him. .


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> So this is my husband initiating:
> 
> Last night he just went to bed. Without telling me. So I'm watching TV and suddenly realized, where the hell IS he? So I go upstairs and he's in bed. Reading. I ask him what he's doing and he says "I thought I'd go to bed early for you". I'm thinking, for ME?!?!?! OK whatever. At this point I am not thinking sex at all - I have no idea what he's doing. I tell him not to do it for me but to do whatever he wants, and I go back and watch some more TV for 20 minutes or so. He just stays there. I go to bed in a while and he's still reading so I start reading, and after a few minutes he stops reading and starts stroking my arm. He NEVER does this. This is where I realize what he's doing. I say nothing and keep reading. After about ten minutes of this (yes really) I ask him what's going on. He says he's just making me feel good. I say "OK" and keep reading. He says nothing whatsoever to me except to answer my questions. Just keeps stroking my arm. It's ****ing weird. He says NOTHING and does nothing but just stroke my arm. Finally I roll over and keep reading and he rolls over and goes to sleep.
> 
> Taken in isolation this incident sounds like I am just a ***** and I'm sure some of you will label me as such. Thats OK, I am a ***** in a lot of ways. This quote pretty much sums it up.


Dude (or dudette in your case  ), that is just flat out weird behavior on his part :scratchhead:


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Does your partner know that you enjoy this? Nothing wrong with enjoying being "used" but its the sort of thing you have to tell your partner or they may end up doing exactly the wrong thing to make you happy.


Yes, he's up to speed on my sexuality


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Alex
She likes sex not sexuality, only on her timeline and just wants you to enjoy yourself. No affection in between.
Here's my view 
She's not controlling you, she's controlling herself. 
She likes sex. With you. Using you for it. Not interested in much else. But doesn't want you to know that. Maybe feels bad about it. Would be easier if you just got off as you said, and got in line with what she is doing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

FrenchFry said:


> @alexm
> 
> For real question out of sheer curiosity:
> 
> Are these threads on TAM at all like the conversations you have with your wife? Like, do "issues" get hashed out in this long, meandering type way or do things get talked about briefly and shelved?


Lol!

Well, the conversations can last 5 - 20 minutes, I'd say, before we reach some sort of conclusion. This is meandering because it's 100 different voices chiming in, with 'what-ifs' etc.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> When you're dependent on your partner's sexual pleasure for your OWN sexual pleasure, it can complicate things.


It's the pendulum thing again.

Men were not paying anywhere near enough attention to women's orgasms for a long time.

Now many are paying *too much* attention. Doesn't seem possible, but a few women here have said that it's too much pressure and a whole lot of guys are thinking that their wives aren't attracted to them if the woman doesn't react "properly".

This goes back again to the idea PyschMom told me about a man's desire for her and her satisfaction in pleasing him being a significant part of many women's sex drive.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> what would concern me if I were you, Alex, is why, if you are a much better guy than those two previous ones (and I am sure you are), she is not able to overcome any possible fear?


Well, that's pretty much exactly the question that so bothers men who are "Good Guys".


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> There has to be a Win/Win in there somewhere. Maybe stressing how parting ways would benefit each partner, leaving each one free to find a more compatible companion in the future?
> 
> _A generous settlement for the LD might help, too . . ._


 @jld: I agree that often the best outcome is to divorce. But that is not always win - win.

Depending on age and financial situation, a generous settlement for the LD might help. Or the HD might spend the rest of the their lives working to pay alimony to a prior companion.

Big push in Florida to change their alimony laws. Biggest proponents of the change? Second wives. They see their husbands paying alimony for decades, and they want him to retire. But he can't retire until the alimony obligation goes away. So it is a fight between current wives who want their current husband to be able to retire and ex-wives who want to keep getting paid for a marriage that ended years and years ago. Not everyone finds another partner and puts their prior marriage in the past.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.


A curious thing I have noticed among LD/ND women is that we can orgasm often and at the speed of light. And, in my case at least, still have zero interest in sex -- or in having an orgasm at all (they were important to my ex-husband so I always did but not because I cared in the least about them). 

Female sexuality is much more complex than I ever imagined when I got married decades ago. And I can't say I understand it any better now than I did then.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think in a lot of ways, HD's thinking about sex is much simpler:

1) Sex is nice - feels good, makes me feel close to my partner
2). Have more sex. 

For someone with that simple wiring, it seems that a person who doesn't want sex must not get physical pleasure from it - or must have some other *reason* to not want sex. 




Openminded said:


> A curious thing I have noticed among LD/ND women is that we can orgasm often and at the speed of light. And, in my case at least, still have zero interest in sex -- or in having an orgasm at all (they were important to my ex-husband so I always did but not because I cared in the least about them).
> 
> Female sexuality is much more complex than I ever imagined when I got married decades ago. And I can't say I understand it any better now than I did then.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> See, for me orgasms and my sex life with my husband are things that can exist in separate realms. No matter what my sex life with my husband has been like, my dose of orgasm wasn't affected. If I want one, I can have one.
> 
> But liking sex is a different matter. I didn't like it for a period of time with my husband, but it had little to do with whether or not I liked orgasm (which I do, a lot.)
> 
> And now that sex with my husband is something that I want and need, it has little to do with whether or not I orgasm during sex with him (which I do sometimes, and sometimes not, but never because I can't.)


Can I ask why the turnaround? What was the reason you not liking sex with your husband and now that it's something you want and need? Is it something you were able to condition yourself to or has something happened?



GettingIt_2 said:


> (I'm coming to realize that the relationship between female orgasm and sex is really different for different women. But it does seem to almost always be important for the man's enjoyment.)
> 
> 
> For me, not all orgasm are created equal. They are simply a physical release sometimes, other times they are part of our sex "play," other times they are a very intense part of our emotional bonding during sex. They have little to do (for me--not speaking for other women here) with my sex life with my husband. My pleasure in that has almost exclusively to do with . . . well, his pleasure. I get off on him getting off, to be blunt. I get actual sexual pleasure out of, say, giving him a blow job. It's different than the physical pleasure I get from an orgasm, and also more intensely sexually pleasurable.


That's an aspect I noticed with my wife too and I am not sure whether I should like it or not. 
Maybe there is a term for partners like this? (whose pleasure is dependant on partner's pleasure). The reason I am not sure i should like it is that I feel she is giving something up of 'herself', by conditioning herself deliberately to gain pleasure from my pleasure. It is as if her real self is being replaced or put into shadow of what _really_ makes her happy, independently of me. The reason why I worry is that I am not sure this is a healthy long term 'arrangement' (there is something 'hyper bonding'-like about it) since eventually she might 'rebel' against herself and switch back (i don't know if she will but she might).
It seems like you may have changed for your husband because you understood what pain it was causing him or was it for another reason? (sorry if I got it wrong, trying to work out). If that was the case, how did this realisation come about? Was it sudden?



GettingIt_2 said:


> I can't figure out if I'm just kinked way different than most women, or if because I can "afford" to see orgasm as separate from sexual pleasure because orgasms aren't ever something I see as something I have to "get" during sex.
> 
> I do know that if my husband expected me to orgasm or pressured me to or didn't let me just please him during sex, then I'd get less enjoyment out of sex. Might feel like I had to fake them because of my "need" for him to be sexually satisfied in order for me to "get off" on sex.
> 
> When you're dependent on your partner's sexual pleasure for your OWN sexual pleasure, it can complicate things.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Dude (or dudette in your case  ), that is just flat out weird behavior on his part :scratchhead:


Buy a cat...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Believe me, I've addressed this.
> 
> I've never for a second thought that *I* was any part of her not feeling safe. I've asked her directly about this. I've even gone so far as to ask her best friend - somebody who has known her longer than I have.
> 
> ...


You mean by not caring how or when it happens or by rejecting her? (Your opening post seems to imply the latter.) It seems it's a form of power play and think I mentioned that it'll likely backfire (she might feel that you are getting older and need less sex, so you will get less sex. Maybe a lot less sex).
But I will be interested to hear how this experiment goes. Have you tried it yet? (declining) When are you planning to decline and when are you going to accept?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Yours is a good one, but in this case the objection to ice cream is the long term health effects - something sex doesn't have. Still, its as good an analogy as any.


See, but to me if a person likes sex in the moment but refrains from doing it often, there is something bad / painful / uncomfortable about sex for the LD. It might not apply to you or your wife. But I imagine for many LDs, on some psychological level, thinking about having sex again causes negative feelings. Maybe because they are being forced to do it more often than they desire for themselves and that coercion feels really wrong. Or maybe because they were taught "good girls aren't supposed to enjoy sex" so they feel ashamed that they enjoyed it. Maybe they feel it is selfish to "waste" time having sex when there are so many more "productive" tasks they could / should be doing. Could be all sorts of reasons.

So to me the analogy holds. They enjoy sex while it is happening. But doing it makes them feel bad when they have time to reflect on it afterward (not always consciously). So they resist requests to "indulge" again.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Not sure "destabilizing" is the correct word.

In part it is about excitement. Safety and stability are not exciting. They are boring. In a good way. But boring is not sexy.

In part it is about anxiety. Anxiety, by itself, is bad. But a little bit of anxiety can be arousing. 

People tend to bond over shared excitement and shared anxiety. So if there is zero anxiety in your partner's feelings for you (I know you would never leave me or pull away or attach to someone else), then introducing a little anxiety could lead to increased arousal.

So maybe you do not have to destabilize the relationship, but you need to add some excitement and a little anxiety that it is possible for the relationship to take a turn for the worse if the LD does not invest in the sexual side of the marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> See, but to me if a person likes sex in the moment but refrains from doing it often, there is something bad / painful / uncomfortable about sex for the LD. It might not apply to you or your wife. But I imagine for many LDs, on some psychological level, thinking about having sex again causes negative feelings. Maybe because they are being forced to do it more often than they desire for themselves and that coercion feels really wrong. Or maybe because they were taught "good girls aren't supposed to enjoy sex" so they feel ashamed that they enjoyed it. Maybe they feel it is selfish to "waste" time having sex when there are so many more "productive" tasks they could / should be doing. Could be all sorts of reasons.
> 
> So to me the analogy holds. They enjoy sex while it is happening. But doing it makes them feel bad when they have time to reflect on it afterward (not always consciously). So they resist requests to "indulge" again.


Hence the SLA to ensure the frequency doesn't creep up.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> So this is my husband initiating:
> 
> Last night he just went to bed. Without telling me. So I'm watching TV and suddenly realized, where the hell IS he? So I go upstairs and he's in bed. Reading. I ask him what he's doing and he says "I thought I'd go to bed early for you". I'm thinking, for ME?!?!?! OK whatever. At this point I am not thinking sex at all - I have no idea what he's doing. I tell him not to do it for me but to do whatever he wants, and I go back and watch some more TV for 20 minutes or so. He just stays there. I go to bed in a while and he's still reading so I start reading, and after a few minutes he stops reading and starts stroking my arm. He NEVER does this. This is where I realize what he's doing. I say nothing and keep reading. After about ten minutes of this (yes really) I ask him what's going on. He says he's just making me feel good. I say "OK" and keep reading. He says nothing whatsoever to me except to answer my questions. Just keeps stroking my arm. It's ****ing weird. He says NOTHING and does nothing but just stroke my arm. Finally I roll over and keep reading and he rolls over and goes to sleep.
> 
> Taken in isolation this incident sounds like I am just a ***** and I'm sure some of you will label me as such. Thats OK, I am a ***** in a lot of ways. This quote pretty much sums it up.


What would you expect him to do, in an ideal scenario?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> Nope, I never mentioned that, ever. It's other people who have "guaranteed" she's faking orgasms, because how could any woman have real orgasms if they don't like sex and it's so obvious she's faking for my benefit, because all women do this.


Oh, wow...yea, I wouldn't assume that. She sounds like she likes sex when you have it, but she's okay with it being scheduled, whereas you want more spontaneity. Neither of you are really ''wrong,'' when you think about it, but maybe there's a way to meet a little closer to the middle?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There are scenarios where you can compromise and scenarios where you can't. If one of you wants Indian food and the other wants Italian, where do you compromise? In the geographical middle? Lebanese? 

Mrs. A should communicate the rationale behind her rather inflexible and anticlimactic "Fridays at 10:58:58 PM" stance and be willing to change that; at the same time Alex should listen and try to see her point of view and make changes in expectations or otherwise as needed. If things are as described she needs to come a lot closer to his side than he does to her. 

Both need to do the small steps, and not hesitate to seek intervention if they're not getting anywhere. 

Her "my way or the highway" has significant risks for the future even tho for now it's more of a benign issue.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> So this is my husband initiating:
> 
> Last night he just went to bed. Without telling me. So I'm watching TV and suddenly realized, where the hell IS he? So I go upstairs and he's in bed. Reading. I ask him what he's doing and he says "I thought I'd go to bed early for you". I'm thinking, for ME?!?!?! OK whatever. At this point I am not thinking sex at all - I have no idea what he's doing. I tell him not to do it for me but to do whatever he wants, and I go back and watch some more TV for 20 minutes or so. He just stays there. I go to bed in a while and he's still reading so I start reading, and after a few minutes he stops reading and starts stroking my arm. He NEVER does this. This is where I realize what he's doing. I say nothing and keep reading. After about ten minutes of this (yes really) I ask him what's going on. He says he's just making me feel good. I say "OK" and keep reading. He says nothing whatsoever to me except to answer my questions. Just keeps stroking my arm. It's ****ing weird. He says NOTHING and does nothing but just stroke my arm. Finally I roll over and keep reading and he rolls over and goes to sleep.
> 
> Taken in isolation this incident sounds like I am just a ***** and I'm sure some of you will label me as such. Thats OK, I am a ***** in a lot of ways. This quote pretty much sums it up.


Yep. My H has done things like this too. Only I would put my book down, look at him and say "stop it, you're being wierd". Then he would roll over and be all hurt about it. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> yes for the love of god yes!


Lol. Something was eating at the back of my brain...a sort of strange deja vu that I had covered this territory with Alex in the past. So...I went digging, and look what I came up with...I knew this had been covered before!

>

Alex, on January 13th, 2015, you wrote the following:



alexm said:


> So here's the type of post I wouldn't be comfortable showing my wife:
> 
> So it's been a bit over 2 weeks now since any sex, which is longer than usual. But, we both get a pass as we had the xmas holidays (busy, very busy. And tiring), then she went away for a weekend, then she got sick for a week, then it was that time of the month). So no complaints there, and no hard feelings.
> 
> ...


The following was my response to you on the same day:



farsidejunky said:


> Dammit, Alex. Your opportunity was perfect. And you go and "nice guy" (read: flubbed) it up.
> 
> Dude, she wants you to tell her what to do, not ask. She wants you to wake her up and take her, not ask if it is okay.
> 
> ...


Here we are again. Have you done this at all in the last two years? Did you incorporate any dominance into your sex life at all?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I agree with the above post ^^

It's not really as complicated as some make it out to be. I'm not married yet, and maybe pre-marriage sex is different than married sex? Idk. But, what I do know, is that my fiance doesn't ''ask''...but he doesn't ''take,'' he just moves forward...smiles, kisses, touches...and moves forward again. Of course, I'm not backing away...lol And perhaps if you really took that type of initiative, alex...your wife would see you in a different light. Things might be so habitual now with the schedule, that she doesn't even know there's another 'option.'


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> So this is my husband initiating:
> 
> Last night he just went to bed. Without telling me. So I'm watching TV and suddenly realized, where the hell IS he? So I go upstairs and he's in bed. Reading. I ask him what he's doing and he says "I thought I'd go to bed early for you". I'm thinking, for ME?!?!?! OK whatever. At this point I am not thinking sex at all - I have no idea what he's doing. I tell him not to do it for me but to do whatever he wants, and I go back and watch some more TV for 20 minutes or so. He just stays there. I go to bed in a while and he's still reading so I start reading, and after a few minutes he stops reading and starts stroking my arm. He NEVER does this. This is where I realize what he's doing. I say nothing and keep reading. After about ten minutes of this (yes really) I ask him what's going on. He says he's just making me feel good. I say "OK" and keep reading. He says nothing whatsoever to me except to answer my questions. Just keeps stroking my arm. It's ****ing weird. He says NOTHING and does nothing but just stroke my arm. Finally I roll over and keep reading and he rolls over and goes to sleep.
> 
> Taken in isolation this incident sounds like I am just a ***** and I'm sure some of you will label me as such. Thats OK, I am a ***** in a lot of ways. This quote pretty much sums it up.


Is this his way of showing you he wants to have sex? Just wondering.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

These threads are all so frustratingly circular, mine included. Endless debate from the same old camps. Destabilize vs make her feel safe. Take her vs wait for her. Talk vs don't talk. I'm increasingly of the opinion that it's all complete BS. 

Want to know why new relationships typically include natural rabbit sex? They don't talk about it, that's why. Or worry about it. Or wonder whether the other party is in the mood. It just happens because both parties know it's gonna happen.

Alex, I think sometimes your wife wants to be taken and used for your pleasure, and doesn't dive a damn whether you focus on her at all. Sometimes that's hot for women, from what I understand. Sometimes she probably would like it to be all about her, especially if she thinks you're getting off by making it all about her. Sometimes she probably just wants to go to sleep because she's had a sh!tty day and she really is exhausted. Sometimes she probably doesn't know what she wants, but because she loves you, she's at least open to suggestion. But I do think what she for sure does not want is a man either unsure of or afraid of his next step. Or a man waiting for her to make all the decisions. And that may be one explanation for why when you declined the routine schedule she was so into it the following day. 

Sometimes you need to show strength. Sometimes selfishness in your sexual desires. Sometimes empathy and tenderness. SomeImes restraint. 

But regardless of the mood required you have to lead. And I know you can, because you have before, otherwise she would not have picked you. 

And I think the best way to get back there is to quit worrying about whether you're reading the tea leaves right and do what comes naturally, same as you did in the beginning of your relationship. 

I'm not suggesting that's easy to do. I am suggesting that it's better than the curse of over analysis.

You're getting there. Just unplug. Go by feel. Not by spreadsheet.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

People change. Time does that. Would be nice to be the same person I or her were 35 years ago but it ain't happening...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Lol. Something was eating at the back of my brain...a sort of strange deja vu that I had covered this territory with Alex in the past. So...I went digging, and look what I came up with...I knew this had been covered before!
> 
> ...................
> 
> Here we are again. Have you done this at all in the last two years? Did you incorporate any dominance into your sex life at all?


Ouch!

As a guy who wants to make others happy, a guy who doesn't want to impose on people, a guy who is uncomfortable with others doing things for me; the 2015 scenario started a rush of thoughts.

But, maybe the best way to say it is with a parable from the Book of Buddy:

Maybe 30 years ago I worked as a server in a restaurant. I had a problem in that I really needed a Saturday night off on short notice (anyone familiar with restaurants will know that you* always* work Saturday night). 

I told a server who had it off that I needed a really big favor; could she take my Saturday night?

Much to my surprise, she cheerfully said "sure".

I followed that up by offering to take any shift she'd like (even two!) in return. I told her how much money she could expect to make. I listed out all the different ways that doing me this favor would be good for *her*. 

By the time I was done listing off all the benefits for her, she seemed noticeably less enthused.

I thought about this for a while, wondering what I might have done wrong.

After some time, the the light bulb went off! By focusing so much on how doing me a favor would work out great for her, I'd removed from her the great pleasure that can come from making others happy. 

I suspect that, by focusing so much on making sure that meeting his needs is just as fun for her as it is for him and that it won't inconvenience her too much, @alexm may be denying his wife what she wants the most; to make him happy.

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samantha-rodman-phd/what-men-think-about-sex-vs-reality_b_5589344.html

"3. Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure.

Au contraire, women generally do not want the primary focus of the sexual encounter to be on their pleasure. Instead, I hear female clients share frequent fantasies of being with men who are overpowered by lust and desire. If a woman feels like her partner has the sole goal of giving her an orgasm, it is quite a lot of pressure and can make her feel self-conscious and awkward. This does not mean that women do not want to enjoy sex; but, they have to feel that their partner is enjoying it at least primarily because he finds her so attractive sexually that he feels urgent desire for her. Women do not respond well to a man who is trying to use various “techniques” in order to be a better lover. This makes us feel like a sudoku puzzle you are trying to solve."


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

neuklas said:


> You're getting there. Just unplug. Go by feel. Not by spreadsheet.


Unfortunately,.that's like telling someone who doesn't dance to just "*feel* the music".

The one's who can feel the music aren't the ones who asking for dance advice.

Those who feel, feel. Those who over-analyze, over-analyze.

But, within the range of one's in-born capabilities, it is best to avoid too much thinking. And, especially, too much talking.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Not sure "destabilizing" is the correct word.
> 
> In part it is about excitement. Safety and stability are not exciting. They are boring. In a good way. But boring is not sexy.
> 
> ...


Why choose anxiety over excitement? Personally, if I was wondering whether my husband were going to leave me, I wouldn't find it arousing. I'd just help him on his way. 

Push/pull is real enough, but it's dangerous if played as a game. And if lopsided can be devastating.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> So this is my husband initiating:
> 
> Last night he just went to bed. Without telling me. So I'm watching TV and suddenly realized, where the hell IS he? So I go upstairs and he's in bed. Reading. I ask him what he's doing and he says "I thought I'd go to bed early for you". I'm thinking, for ME?!?!?! OK whatever. At this point I am not thinking sex at all - I have no idea what he's doing. I tell him not to do it for me but to do whatever he wants, and I go back and watch some more TV for 20 minutes or so. He just stays there. I go to bed in a while and he's still reading so I start reading, and after a few minutes he stops reading and starts stroking my arm. He NEVER does this. This is where I realize what he's doing. I say nothing and keep reading. After about ten minutes of this (yes really) I ask him what's going on. He says he's just making me feel good. I say "OK" and keep reading. He says nothing whatsoever to me except to answer my questions. Just keeps stroking my arm. It's ****ing weird. He says NOTHING and does nothing but just stroke my arm. Finally I roll over and keep reading and he rolls over and goes to sleep.
> 
> Taken in isolation this incident sounds like I am just a ***** and I'm sure some of you will label me as such. Thats OK, I am a ***** in a lot of ways. This quote pretty much sums it up.



This is what I meant by forgiveness. You know he's like this, you know he can't communicate, and you know what he's trying to say, no matter how weird it is.

Can you forgive him for being this way, and just roll with it? Could you not have just taken his hint and gone along with it, instead of wishing he weren't so crappy at communicating and initiating?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Unfortunately,.that's like telling someone who doesn't dance to just "*feel* the music".
> 
> The one's who can feel the music aren't the ones who asking for dance advice.
> 
> ...


Feelings won't tell you why something is happening. Without understanding why, the chances of any action succeeding are not good.

Some analysis and a lot of introspection are useful.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> yes for the love of god yes!


Assuming, of course, that she shares your kinks. At least close enough.

But the dom/sub game only works for some. 

alexm's wife doesn't sound like a sub to me. But of course I don't know her, so I could be wrong.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> You mean by not caring how or when it happens or by rejecting her? (Your opening post seems to imply the latter.) It seems it's a form of power play and think I mentioned that it'll likely backfire (she might feel that you are getting older and need less sex, so you will get less sex. Maybe a lot less sex).
> But I will be interested to hear how this experiment goes. Have you tried it yet? (declining) When are you planning to decline and when are you going to accept?


No, there's no intent on rejecting her at all. If I get to the point where I'm actually able to reject her in the first place, then that would defeat the whole purpose 

I'm just not chasing it, or expecting it. Not playing by her rules, I guess you could say.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> At any rate, I think getting hung up on the word choice is not in keeping with Alex's intent. He is not trying to destabilize the overall security of his marriage. Quite the opposite, in fact. I see his intent as purely protective. Doing NOTHING would be more of threat to their intimacy, and therefore the strength of their marriage.


I agree. I don't think there's anything destabilizing about deciding to no longer jump through hoops or chase the dragon. I see it as much more about finding his own sense of self, and a way of self care. Without that, he's always off kilter and any intimacy will be one-sided or only half way.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> No, there's no intent on rejecting her at all. If I get to the point where I'm actually able to reject her in the first place, then that would defeat the whole purpose
> 
> I'm just not chasing it, or expecting it. Not playing by her rules, I guess you could say.


I think that all you might be seeking is for your wife to desire _to be_ chased. I hope things get better.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

farsidejunky said:


> Here we are again. Have you done this at all in the last two years? Did you incorporate any dominance into your sex life at all?


Sigh. Yes.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

alexm said:


> Sigh. Yes.


Why did you stop?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> This is what I meant by forgiveness. You know he's like this, you know he can't communicate, and you know what he's trying to say, no matter how weird it is.
> 
> Can you forgive him for being this way, and just roll with it? *Could you not have just taken his hint and gone along with it, *instead of wishing he weren't so crappy at communicating and initiating?


That would show leadership, Hope. And in your relationship, it sounds like you have more potential along those lines.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Unfortunately,.that's like telling someone who doesn't dance to just "*feel* the music".
> 
> *The one's who can feel the music aren't the ones who asking for dance advice*.


Good point.

I suppose it is like trying to learn how to lose weight from naturally thin people. You can compare what you are eating to what/how much they are eating. But studying and applying the differences may still not be enough to get you exactly where you want to be--if you can even realistically get there at all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I agree. I don't think there's anything destabilizing about deciding to no longer jump through hoops or chase the dragon. *I see it as much more about finding his own sense of self, and a way of self care. * Without that, he's always off kilter and any intimacy will be one-sided or only half way.


If this were something that only involved him, I might agree. But he is clearly trying to get something from her by doing this, or at least not to continue giving to her without conditions.

I just don't have a good feeling about anything meant as an unstated attempt to get your partner to do something they do not really want to do, especially if that might compromise their own emotional/mental stability in some way, and if their stability is more fragile than yours. To me that looks like shaky ground for a relationship.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Yep. My H has done things like this too. Only I would put my book down, look at him and say "stop it, you're being wierd". Then he would roll over and be all hurt about it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk




What is the reason for not putting the book down and....have sex with the husband? I mean it is clear as day that in your and Hope's scenario, they were trying to initiate. More importantly, it is clear to You. Is it some sort of 'punishment' for their terrible 'performance' of initiating badly? Just wondering.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> No, there's no intent on rejecting her at all. If I get to the point where I'm actually able to reject her in the first place, then that would defeat the whole purpose
> 
> I'm just not chasing it, or expecting it. Not playing by her rules, I guess you could say.


I was wondering because in your OP, you wrote:

"So this weekend, I've planned to avoid. It's baseball season (yay!), so I have an excuse to not come to bed. I'm torn to whether or not she'll care, or if she does, if she says anything. I've rejected her in the past a minute amount of times, and she generally hasn't taken it well, but I've had legitimate excuses (total exhaustion, mainly). But I've never said no to, or avoided sex with her when I'm feeling fine.

It's juvenile, but it's also pretty last ditch."

"Avoiding" sounded like a form of rejecting to me but maybe I misunderstood.

I think 'not thinking/analysing' it too much and just to 'rolling with it' is what most people are trying to recommend. And I tend to agree...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

GettingIt_2 said:


> yes for the love of god yes!


ha ha... it's good to have you back around these parts.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

farsidejunky said:


> Why did you stop?


Well, I haven't stopped, per se. Mon-Fri are out of the question 99.9% of the time, regardless of what I do. So I stopped bothering with those days long ago. Didn't matter how I approached it.

Saturday is just expected by both of us, so that dynamic just doesn't play into it.

I would do this sort of thing on (lol) Sundays every now and again, if I felt like it. Probably a 50/50 success rate. Have to catch her at the right time. I'm almost always up before she is, so if I went back to bed, for example, I could do this. Didn't always want to, though. I'm not a morning person, even though the equipment works better at that time of day (you guys know what I'm talking about!)

Short answer, the opportunities are limited as they are, by her choice/design/schedule. Therefore, when the opportunity does arise, I don't want a 2 minute quickie.

It's a real catch-22. It's obvious to me and anybody else that she would rather I be more... forceful? and take what I want, so to speak. But, as is typical, those opportunities are few and far between. The above quoted post from 2015 or whenever defines quite nicely the whole dynamic, in which she hints at something, then pulls back, hints at something, then pulls back. Non-verbally says "do this", then essentially disallows it if it diverts even minutely.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> What is the reason for not putting the book down and....have sex with the husband? I mean it is clear as day that in your and Hope's scenario, they were trying to initiate. More importantly, it is clear to You. Is it some sort of 'punishment' for their terrible 'performance' of initiating badly? Just wondering.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not initation, and it _is_ weird. It's a turn-off, and it's lazy. Moreover, it's simply weak, and it makes the other person _actually_ do the initiation - which is manipulative.

People want to be wanted, desired. This shows nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact. It shows _they_ want to be wanted and desired, so _you_ do the work. I'll just hint at it, let you know I'm ready. :|


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> I was wondering because in your OP, you wrote:
> 
> "So this weekend, I've planned to avoid. It's baseball season (yay!), so I have an excuse to not come to bed. I'm torn to whether or not she'll care, or if she does, if she says anything. I've rejected her in the past a minute amount of times, and she generally hasn't taken it well, but I've had legitimate excuses (total exhaustion, mainly). But I've never said no to, or avoided sex with her when I'm feeling fine.
> 
> ...


If she wanted me, she'd know where I was. Which is how it's been for me for many, many years. She can chase me for a change.

And if she came and got me, I wouldn't reject her. Again, that would defeat the purpose. I have no intentions of hurting her feelings or her ego.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> It's not initation, and it _is_ weird. It's a turn-off, and it's lazy. Moreover, it's simply weak, and it makes the other person _actually_ do the initiation - which is manipulative.
> 
> 
> 
> People want to be wanted, desired. This shows nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact. It shows _they_ want to be wanted and desired, so _you_ do the work. I'll just hint at it, let you know I'm ready. :|




Hmm I don't see it that way at all. I mean I agree this is a very poor initiation technique but if the other person knows that it is hard for the other party to know how to initiate so it fits the scenario perfectly for the other party, it seems weird to me to make the whole thing even more painful for the other person than it already is. (It's exactly the same as per your card game method. It was not the right time or place to do this. But at least you tried).
Why not just say: hey all this stroking is not gonna get you laid any time soon, why don't you just **** me instead?
Because essentially this is what the wife wants at that moment in time. And the husband has absolutely no clue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> If she wanted me, she'd know where I was. Which is how it's been for me for many, many years. She can chase me for a change.
> 
> 
> 
> And if she came and got me, I wouldn't reject her. Again, that would defeat the purpose. I have no intentions of hurting her feelings or her ego.




I guess the word 'avoid' threw me off.
What if she doesn't want to have to initiate?
Basically you both have a need: you want her to be more pro active and she wants you to take her, when she is free and doesn't have work on her mind: who decides whose need is a priority?
By avoiding her, you are denying her her need. She doesn't deny you sex.
There seems to me to be an asymmetry.

I have solved the problem the following way: I can tell when she 'expects' sex and I do take her (sometimes pretend-forcefully). Sometimes if I need sex outside of the 'expectation' time frame I just tell her that i need it. Most of the time she is more than willing to 'help me out' ending up enjoying it herself a lot of the time. If she cannot do it, i know she has a reasonable reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> What is the reason for not putting the book down and....have sex with the husband? I mean it is clear as day that in your and Hope's scenario, they were trying to initiate. More importantly, it is clear to You. Is it some sort of 'punishment' for their terrible 'performance' of initiating badly? Just wondering.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In my case- this was years ago when I truly didn't understand this was an initiation tactic on his part. You said "it was clear as day", but to me it wasn't. I didn't equate his touching my arm with wanting sex. If your wife held your hand in the car one time that day, would you understand that meant she wanted to have sex?

My knee jerk reaction was - why are you doing this? And I guess that killed his mood and made him sulk. If he had responded "I am trying to get you to put your book down" or something other than rolling over and being upset, the light bulb would have went off for me. It's hard to take the super subtle hints sometimes from a very passive guy. Literally anything that he does could have layers upon layers of hidden meaning that I am supposed to be able to instantly decode, and the littlest thing that I do, however unknowingly, could be interpreted as rejection of him and start a shame spiral. It took me many years to realize this was going on. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> It's not initation, and it _is_ weird. It's a turn-off, and it's lazy. Moreover, it's simply weak, and it makes the other person _actually_ do the initiation - which is manipulative.
> 
> People want to be wanted, desired. This shows nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact. It shows _they_ want to be wanted and desired, so _you_ do the work. I'll just hint at it, let you know I'm ready. :|


Yes, I went through a period of feeling this way. It wasn't feeling manipulated per se, it was more frustrated that he couldn't be more direct with me. That has been a problem in all areas of our marriage though- not just sex - so my overall frustration with him spilled over into sex too. All I wanted was for him to communicate clearly for once. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> It's not initation, and it _is_ weird. It's a turn-off, and it's lazy. Moreover, it's simply weak, and it makes the other person _actually_ do the initiation - which is manipulative.
> 
> 
> 
> People want to be wanted, desired. This shows nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact. It shows _they_ want to be wanted and desired, so _you_ do the work. I'll just hint at it, let you know I'm ready. :|




The crucial difference (and why it's so asymmetric) is that the wife knows that her husband wants to ****, the husband has no idea that the wife wants to be ****ed and is trying (pathetically or not) to figure it out. The power is in the wife's hands, so to speak.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> The crucial difference (and why it's so asymmetric) is that the wife knows that her husband wants to ****, the husband has no idea that the wife wants to be ****ed and is trying (pathetically or not) to figure it out. The power is in the wife's hands, so to speak.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She may be trying to put it in his hands, in the only way she feels comfortable doing it, or even knows how.

Assuming this is what is actually going on, of course. We cannot be sure how she actually sees this unless she comes here and answers questions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Yes, I went through a period of feeling this way. It wasn't feeling manipulated per se, it was more frustrated that he couldn't be more direct with me. That has been a problem in all areas of our marriage though- not just sex - so my overall frustration with him spilled over into sex too. All I wanted was for him to communicate clearly for once.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I think one reason you did not feel manipulated is that you are comfortable with your level of power in the relationship. Someone who did not feel comfortable, especially who perceived themselves as having less power than the other, might be more likely to describe themselves as being manipulated by the other person, as opposed to just feeling frustrated by them.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think in a lot of ways, HD's thinking about sex is much simpler:
> 
> 1) Sex is nice - feels good, makes me feel close to my partner
> 2). Have more sex.
> ...


I agree. Those of us who are outside the norm usually have much less simple thinking about sex. To me, it's not straightforward. It's more like a puzzle with missing pieces.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> It's not initation, and it _is_ weird. It's a turn-off, and it's lazy. Moreover, it's simply weak, and it makes the other person _actually_ do the initiation - which is manipulative.
> 
> People want to be wanted, desired. This shows nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact. It shows _they_ want to be wanted and desired, so _you_ do the work. I'll just hint at it, let you know I'm ready. :|


But she is showing she wants you, just in a subtle way.

Alex, some women would not feel comfortable initiating, or not in a very direct way. And they may expect their husbands to take over right away once the hint is given.

It would feel totally weird to me to be with a man who expected me to be the initiator or the leader in sex. And if he claimed he felt manipulated by a subtle invitation, I would not even know what to say. He would be putting me into a position I do not know what to do with, and that would shut down any desire I might have.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> In my case- this was years ago when I truly didn't understand this was an initiation tactic on his part. You said "it was clear as day", but to me it wasn't. I didn't equate his touching my arm with wanting sex. If your wife held your hand in the car one time that day, would you understand that meant she wanted to have sex?


The corollary is also interesting. Wifey somehow equates (*) all touching or affection as sexual... with rather unfortunate results...

(*) There's some underlying psychopathology (70%) or past issue / trauma (30%) here obviously.... I have a theory about it based on heredity and it ain't pretty... 

If you don't know the past case history of your partner and their family and a solid understanding of their culture anything can and will happen at some point. That was by far my biggest mistake in all this. Getting married without these pieces of information is very risky IMHO.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Yes, I went through a period of feeling this way. It wasn't feeling manipulated per se, it was more frustrated that he couldn't be more direct with me. That has been a problem in all areas of our marriage though- not just sex - so my overall frustration with him spilled over into sex too. All I wanted was for him to communicate clearly for once.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


May not be applicable in your case but for the LD complaining about non-existant confidence and lackluster initiation techniques, think about whether it was always like this. You may have 'trained him' to be like this over time. Hundreds of rejections saps confidence, thousands and its gone. It is a direct feedback loop.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> May not be applicable in your case but for the LD complaining about non-existant confidence and lackluster initiation techniques, think about whether it was always like this. You may have 'trained him' to be like this over time. Hundreds of rejections saps confidence, thousands and its gone. It is a direct feedback loop.


Kag may be the LD in her marriage, but to me she definitely looks like the dominant. She is careful of his feelings and bends over backwards so he does not fall into that "shame spiral." She takes responsibility for his feelings and keeps the marriage on a more even keel than he surely ever could.

You are certainly doing way more than I ever would, kag. 

Sincere question: Are you okay with this? If things never changed, could you spend your whole marriage this way?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> In my case- this was years ago when I truly didn't understand this was an initiation tactic on his part. You said "it was clear as day", but to me it wasn't. I didn't equate his touching my arm with wanting sex. If your wife held your hand in the car one time that day, would you understand that meant she wanted to have sex?
> 
> My knee jerk reaction was - why are you doing this? And I guess that killed his mood and made him sulk. If he had responded "I am trying to get you to put your book down" or something other than rolling over and being upset, the light bulb would have went off for me. It's hard to take the super subtle hints sometimes from a very passive guy. Literally anything that he does could have layers upon layers of hidden meaning that I am supposed to be able to instantly decode, and the littlest thing that I do, however unknowingly, could be interpreted as rejection of him and start a shame spiral. It took me many years to realize this was going on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk




Ok that's different (if you didn't know what was happening). In Hope's case, she clearly knew her husband was initiating since she described that this is her husband initiating, but she knowingly let him 'hang' there for no clear reason apart from that she felt it was a pathetic attempt. 
In your case it was clearly a miscommunication problem, unless you didn't want to understand what it was he was trying to do  
(I mean if he was taking your hand during a funeral it's one thing but when you are both in bed and have time? Come on...)

I think nowadays I can read my wife much better. If she does take my hand (it happens once a year perhaps) then I can tell if it's for sex or because she wants me to hold her hand (the 2nd one is usually very unlikely). I have a choice: I can play dumb and 'teach her a lesson' and not react or I can make life easy and have some great sex with her.
What's the point of all these games?



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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

anonmd said:


> May not be applicable in your case but for the LD complaining about non-existant confidence and lackluster initiation techniques, think about whether it was always like this. You may have 'trained him' to be like this over time. Hundreds of rejections saps confidence, thousands and its gone. It is a direct feedback loop.


I can assure you, he has always been this way. I should have seen it back when we were dating. He'd pursue me for dates but the initiating of anything physical was always mine to get started. Once started he would take over, but would never make the first move. 

He's like this in all areas of life, not just the bedroom. Even his mom tells me stories of his childhood and how passive he was then. This is just him. 

But yes - one of the most irritating epiphanies I've had so far in our marriage was realizing that for as honest and direct as I am - he is not that way. He is a mirage of nuances and hidden meanings and everything he does, and everything I say or do in response is coated with unsaid meaning that for a long time was imperceptible to me. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what he would get so upset about, and couldn't even see what my part in it was. 

There was a long time where I was at the end of my rope and felt the same as Hope describes. The only thing that moved me past that was 1) accepting this is who he is, and that he isn't going to change and 2) growing a thicker skin of my own, and not feeling bad if he ascribed intentions to me that were not true. I couldn't prevent him from doing that. 

So right now, I can laugh a bit about this stuff. A couple of years ago I wasn't laughing. And maybe in the future I'll be fed up with it again. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Ok that's different (if you didn't know what was happening). In Hope's case, she clearly knew her husband was initiating since she described that this is her husband initiating, but she knowingly let him 'hang' there for no clear reason apart from that she felt it was a pathetic attempt.
> In your case it was clearly a miscommunication problem, unless you didn't want to understand what it was he was trying to do
> (I mean if he was taking your hand during a funeral it's one thing but when you are both in bed and have time? Come on...)
> 
> ...


To be fair: it sounds like Hope has spent LOTS of time (including counseling) to explain to her H that the way he initiates matters to her a great deal, and yet he chooses not to do the things she's asked him to do that would bring her happiness. In her shoes, I would likely let him "hang" there too, because accepting the behavior that you do not want (and have clearly communicated you do not want) is like saying "this is OK for me now". And it's not. And he knows it's not. 

Also, my H's signals are more like taking my hand in the car for 5 minutes at noon, and expecting me to understand that was his initiation at 11pm that night. Like...what?



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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

jld said:


> Kag may be the LD in her marriage, but to me she definitely looks like the dominant. She is careful of his feelings and bends over backwards so he does not fall into that "shame spiral." She takes responsibility for his feelings and keeps the marriage on a more even keel than he surely ever could.
> 
> You are certainly doing way more than I ever would, kag.
> 
> Sincere question: Are you okay with this? If things never changed, could you spend your whole marriage this way?


Yes, I am fine with it. I take the good with the bad and my husband has way more good than bad. I am dominating and forceful and blunt by nature, and if I had a man of the same nature, we would either hate each other or get into explosive fights. 

I will never expect my husband to be forceful, because he's just not that type of person. But I'd like it if he were a little more direct in his communication. Specifically, his speaking. I am not a delicate flower that will wilt if you tell me what you are really thinking or feeling. But we are making progress. 

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I think 'owning up' to your need is important. I remember I used to play all these 'subtle initiation' games; they were a huge turn off for the woman. Whereas just saying: 'I really need to have sex with you' or 'I am going to **** you now' (jokingly, while holding her tight, I dunno) is straight and to the point. (Or say HOW you want to have sex with her if there are 'special requirements'...). If she keeps denying and rejecting every time, then at least you know where you stand (I'm now not talking about Alexm, but in general). Then a totally different course of action is probably required. But all these hints and hidden meanings...sounds like a nightmare and prone to huge misunderstandings. And no one benefits.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I think 'owning up' to your need is important. I remember I used to play all these 'subtle initiation' games; they were a huge turn off for the woman. Whereas just saying: 'I really need to have sex with you' or *'I am going to **** you now'* (jokingly, while holding her tight, I dunno) is straight and to the point. (Or say HOW you want to have sex with her if there are 'special requirements'...). If she keeps denying and rejecting every time, then at least you know where you stand (I'm now not talking about Alexm, but in general). Then a totally different course of action is probably required. But all these hints and hidden meanings...sounds like a nightmare and prone to huge misunderstandings. And no one benefits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The bolded would be a very good line to use, Alex. 

It does have to fit you, though. You need to feel confident for it to have the desired effect, imo.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Yep. My H has done things like this too. Only I would put my book down, look at him and say "stop it, you're being wierd". Then he would roll over and be all hurt about it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


It may appear weird, but I truly think it boils down to the men in our lives having no game. I used to think it was laziness but now I'm not so sure about that. For the most part I do think he's doing the best he can.

Oh man you would weep if I posted some of the ways my bf has approached having sex. 



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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Some of the problems in relationships can result from a pride issue.  And forgiveness. I think in some of the stories I've read on here, it seems like the reasons why sex is an issue and infrequent, is because the spouse did something else in the past, and maybe the other spouse hasn't fully forgiven or let it go, yet. Despite saying they've forgiven, they really haven't. Despite the spouse who wronged the other one apologizing, whatever they did, hasn't been fully forgotten. And all of that gets excused by saying he/she doesn't understand my needs, or how to arouse me, or sucks in bed, etc. Until you really forgive the past, it will affect your present, in and out of bed. Just food for thought. 

(Not saying that's your wife, alex ...just making a general observation)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lucy999 said:


> It may appear weird, but I truly think it boils down to the men in our lives having no game. I used to think it was laziness but now I'm not so sure about that. For the most part I do think he's doing the best he can.
> 
> Oh man you would weep if I posted some of the ways my bf has approached having sex.


Does the lack of "game" affect your attraction to him, or not at all?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

jld said:


> Does the lack of "game" affect your attraction to him, or not at all?


Yes. It does. Not near as much as it used to though. Long ago, I thought it might be a deal-breaker for me. But then I realized I'd be a fool to throw away such a good man. I am deeply in love with him. I have been appropriately vocal ( well most of the time 🤤)about our sex life and he agrees 100%. He sees lots of room for improvement. He even brought up the idea of us going to a sex therapist. I am just thankful that he doesn't get defensive and is open to talking about it.

Last weekend for instance we had a wonderful time in bed. In fact, we both high-fived each other after the fact. Lol. 

And then, all week I've been all googly-eyed, thinking of how good the sex was how attracted I am to him. But shouldn't I be googly-eyed for him all the time? That's a little disturbing to me. I feel shallow.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lucy999 said:


> It may appear weird, but I truly think it boils down to the men in our lives having no game. I used to think it was laziness but now I'm not so sure about that. For the most part I do think he's doing the best he can.
> 
> Oh man you would weep if I posted some of the ways my bf has approached having sex.
> 
> ...




It doesn't come natural to most men, that is why. In the same way that women don't initiate and desire us in the way we would want them to, in an ideal world. I think we have this image of our wives descending upon us, like a strip dancer for a lap dance, all dripping wet and ready...Real life is not (always) quite like this.
In many cases (including Alex's case) I don't think it's because they don't want but it's because they're not wired that way. 
There must be an evolutionary reason why it's not as straightforward.



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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Idk, it is pretty straight forward if you are into each other. I mean, really into each other. You might love someone, be their best friend, think they're amazing in every way, but not be ''into them.'' I think that's the issue sometimes, too. I love my fiance for the great man he is, and how he shows his love for me, but I'm ''into him,'' and he's into me. Not sure if I'm explaining that well, it's just a feeling maybe that isn't easy to describe. I never want to say no to him, put it that way. Will this change once we marry? I really hope not, but some on here have posted in other threads about how hot their sex lives were before marriage. So what changed? I mean, I get that marriage brings more responsibility into things, but to not have one hour in the day to have sex with the person you used to have sex with all the time, when you were dating? Some people on here have shared that they haven't had sex with their spouses in YEARS. Years?? I don't understand that, honestly. One hour of intimacy could heal a lot of marriages, maybe. Even a half hour. lol


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Idk, it is pretty straight forward if you are into each other. I mean, really into each other. You might love someone, be their best friend, think they're amazing in every way, but not be ''into them.'' I think that's the issue sometimes, too. I love my fiance for the great man he is, and how he shows his love for me, but I'm ''into him,'' and he's into me. Not sure if I'm explaining that well, it's just a feeling maybe that isn't easy to describe. I never want to say no to him, put it that way. Will this change once we marry? I really hope not, but some on here have posted in other threads about how hot their sex lives were before marriage. So what changed? I mean, I get that marriage brings more responsibility into things, but to not have one hour in the day to have sex with the person you used to have sex with all the time, when you were dating? Some people on here have shared that they haven't had sex with their spouses in YEARS. Years?? I don't understand that, honestly. One hour of intimacy could heal a lot of marriages, maybe. Even a half hour. lol


How long have you been together? Somebody mentioned that the 'baggage' gets attached at some point. The beginnings (first 6 months ish) are always "easy". Also because hormones rule and you don't project anything weird/negative onto your partner. Everything is rosy, straightforward and positive. This doesn't tend to last. I don't mean that everyone starts assuming negative crap about the other, just that things become more 'real' as the hormones wear off (or the 'in love' feeling turns into genuine love or care for the other person. Or not so much). 
A lot of it is to do with trust. Like you mentioned in your previous post about spouses not properly forgiving the other: once you mess up or say something hurtful, the trust takes time to build back up again. And these little things chisel away at one another's trust.

I like this quote:

"Love is a temporary madness, it erupts like volcanoes and then subsides. And when it subsides, you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion, it is not the desire to mate every second minute of the day, it is not lying awake at night imagining that he is kissing every cranny of your body. No, don't blush, I am telling you some truths. That is just being "in love", which any fool can do. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident.” 
― Louis de Bernières, Captain Corelli's Mandolin


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> How long have you been together? Somebody mentioned that the 'baggage' gets attached at some point. The beginnings (first 6 months ish) are always "easy". Also because hormones rule and you don't project anything weird/negative onto your partner. Everything is rosy, straightforward and positive. This doesn't tend to last. I don't mean that everyone starts assuming negative crap about the other, just that things become more 'real' as the hormones wear off (or the 'in love' feeling turns into genuine love or care for the other person. Or not so much).
> A lot of it is to do with trust. Like you mentioned in your previous post about spouses not properly forgiving the other: once you mess up or say something hurtful, the trust takes time to build back up again. And these little things chisel away at one another's trust.


I was friends with him for a few years prior to dating him. It was a relatively quick engagement, we just knew. I've dated some pretty bad guys, guys who treated me really badly. Not without my permission, of course, but this relationship...it's just so great. It's funny though, your post does make a lot of sense, because truthfully, he hasn't done anything yet to hurt me. I'm not looking for it, but just saying, he has't yet. I haven't hurt him (yet) either. I say yet, because I know that hurt is part of a relationship, and while we do have disagreements, they don't leave us feeling angry for days, or crying questioning the relationship. There's been no betrayal. Once we get married, and live together full time, I know things won't always be like this, ''easy.'' Is it wrong to want it to stay this way? 

I still think though that finding time to have sex with your partner ...even just spending a half hour together at night to have sex, seems doable to me. Maybe not every night, but most nights. Maybe you have to move the "baggage" out of the way for that half hour, and just try to reconnect.

There's a poster on here named William and he's been married for a long time, and they still have amazing sex, and often, he posts. Keeping that going is possible, if you want it to happen.



> I like this quote:
> 
> "Love is a temporary madness, it erupts like volcanoes and then subsides. And when it subsides, you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion, it is not the desire to mate every second minute of the day, it is not lying awake at night imagining that he is kissing every cranny of your body. No, don't blush, I am telling you some truths. That is just being "in love", which any fool can do. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident.”
> ― Louis de Bernières, Captain Corelli's Mandolin


I just love this quote! ((thank you))


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I was friends with him for a few years prior to dating him. It was a relatively quick engagement, we just knew. I've dated some pretty bad guys, guys who treated me really badly. Not without my permission, of course, but this relationship...it's just so great. It's funny though, your post does make a lot of sense, because truthfully, he hasn't done anything yet to hurt me. I'm not looking for it, but just saying, he has't yet. I haven't hurt him (yet) either. I say yet, because I know that hurt is part of a relationship, and while we do have disagreements, they don't leave us feeling angry for days, or crying questioning the relationship. There's been no betrayal. Once we get married, and live together full time, I know things won't always be like this, ''easy.'' Is it wrong to want it to stay this way?
> 
> I still think though that finding time to have sex with your partner ...even just spending a half hour together at night to have sex, seems doable to me. Maybe not every night, but most nights. Maybe you have to move the "baggage" out of the way for that half hour, and just try to reconnect.


It's fine, we just have sex right on top and all over all the baggage. It works (and provides decent back support 

Actually I think some baggage is healthy especially if you have been together for years, it's unavoidable. It makes you grow stronger if you manage to overcome these things together.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> It's fine, we just have sex right on top and all over all the baggage. It works (and provides decent back support


 haha!!



> Actually I think some baggage is healthy especially if you have been together for years, it's unavoidable. It makes you grow stronger if you manage to overcome these things together.


So those stats I read about atheist marriages having fewer divorces, looks like there's something to that? lol :smile2:


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## FamilyMaid (Apr 22, 2017)

Any way to ask her to make it the next night? Any way to add a second night of the week? Just a suggestion.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

alexm said:


> It's not initation, and it _is_ weird. It's a turn-off, and it's lazy. Moreover, it's simply weak, and it makes the other person _actually_ do the initiation - which is manipulative.
> 
> People want to be wanted, desired. This shows nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact. It shows _they_ want to be wanted and desired, so _you_ do the work. I'll just hint at it, let you know I'm ready. :|


:iagree::iagree::iagree:



inmyprime said:


> Why not just say: hey all this stroking is not gonna get you laid any time soon, why don't you just **** me instead?
> Because essentially this is what the wife wants at that moment in time. And the husband has absolutely no clue.


I HAVE said that about a hundred times. He just gets pissy. 



wild jade said:


> This is what I meant by forgiveness. You know he's like this, you know he can't communicate, and you know what he's trying to say, no matter how weird it is.
> 
> Can you forgive him for being this way, and just roll with it? Could you not have just taken his hint and gone along with it, instead of wishing he weren't so crappy at communicating and initiating?


I have 'forgiven' him for 20 years and it's gotten me NOWHERE. MY needs are not being met here. I am at the end of my rope with this and have decided to take a stand about it.



jld said:


> That would show leadership, Hope. And in your relationship, it sounds like you have more potential along those lines.


It shows leadership to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result? Really???



kag123 said:


> To be fair: it sounds like Hope has spent LOTS of time (including counseling) to explain to her H that the way he initiates matters to her a great deal, and yet he chooses not to do the things she's asked him to do that would bring her happiness. In her shoes, I would likely let him "hang" there too, because accepting the behavior that you do not want (and have clearly communicated you do not want) is like saying "this is OK for me now". And it's not. And he knows it's not.


Exactly. He KNOWS it's not ok.

He has **** going on in his head that I have no clue about and no answer to, yet he refuses to deal with it. He's a sex addict in recovery but thinks that doesn't mean anything as far as our bedroom life. I stay out of his recovery because HE has to do it, I can't, but if he won't deal with the real **** then who will??


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hope, jade suggested you take your husband's hint and roll with it. She suggested, in my understanding, forgiving him for being who he is rather than who you want him to be. Is there not some wisdom in her suggestions?

Not everyone is a leader, after all. It does not sound like your husband is. He may just not be wired that way. And it may only frustrate you to keeping wishing for something that may not be meant to be.

It sounds like you are the more natural leader in your relationship. Wouldn't embracing that, accepting that role that you are just naturally better at, offer you some inner peace?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> It doesn't come natural to most men, that is why. In the same way that women don't initiate and desire us in the way we would want them to, in an ideal world. I think we have this image of our wives descending upon us, like a strip dancer for a lap dance, all dripping wet and ready...Real life is not (always) quite like this.
> In many cases (including Alex's case) I don't think it's because they don't want but it's because they're not wired that way.
> There must be an evolutionary reason why it's not as straightforward.


I am not sure what you mean by evolutionary? I do think dominance is sprinkled throughout the population, not exclusively on one sex or the other.

People who are more naturally dominant in their relationships are likely to attract people who are more dependent. That is surely nature's way of forming complementary pairs.

We try to do some manipulation of that here on TAM. We try to teach people how to be more emotionally independent, for example. 

But I wonder how much people ever fundamentally change. It might be a lot less stressful to encourage people to
accept and appreciate their spouses as they are, or just leave them and find a more naturally compatible partner.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Hmm I don't see it that way at all. I mean I agree this is a very poor initiation technique but if the other person knows that it is hard for the other party to know how to initiate so it fits the scenario perfectly for the other party, it seems weird to me to make the whole thing even more painful for the other person than it already is. (It's exactly the same as per your card game method. It was not the right time or place to do this. But at least you tried).
> Why not just say: hey all this stroking is not gonna get you laid any time soon, why don't you just **** me instead?
> Because essentially this is what the wife wants at that moment in time. And the husband has absolutely no clue.
> 
> ...




It's much weirder than you would think.
They don't actually want to initiate, or have sex
They want to feel desired.
And in poor me victim mode it is a weird test. See? You don't want me. I knew it.
It is manipulation but not towards sex. It's about blaming the other person for their feelings.




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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Update, week 3 - same time, same place (lol). Went up to bed not thinking about sex. She got into bed a couple of minutes before me, naked, and not hiding it, so... it happened.

Funny thing, I think she was actually turned on beforehand, despite it being our 'usual' time/day. This felt far less like "okay, it's Saturday, let's do this".

We had been out almost all day doing various things, some fun, some errands, hung out with her best friend for a while and did some renovation prep at her house. At one point, my wife was bending over for something and I could see everything. A few minutes later, I whispered in her ear "I love your tits". I then spent the rest of the day grabbing her butt every chance I got. She laughed, she got annoyed, she giggled, she said "stop that!", but I continued to do it... >

When we got down to it later that night, it took about 2 minutes for her to say "I want you inside me", so this was not going to be my usual 'spend however long on foreplay and oral sex' thing. So I somewhat forcibly turned her over right away and did as she asked. She came within a minute, whole body shaking and everything. I didn't stop, and actually went harder and deeper until I finished. As I was doing so (just starting to slow down) I realized she was close again, so I kept going and a few seconds later, she came again, this time shaking even more. The whole thing took <5 minutes. No real foreplay or anything.

Sorry if that read like porn.

So, I didn't initiate again, but I obviously planted the seed throughout the day. Despite it being our usual day and time for it (the schedule...lol) it didn't seem like it, TBH. Like I said, she seemed into it _beforehand_, this time. I did spend the day doing things I don't normally do to her, or haven't in a while. She made it abundantly clear in the past that she didn't like being grabbed... Or if I ever said things to her like "nice tits", she'd normally just give me a look.

Maybe it's because I haven't seemed to be desperate in her eyes these last few weeks, so I'm not having this vibe of forcing it. I don't know. Seems plausible.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> I am not sure what you mean by evolutionary? I do think dominance is sprinkled throughout the population, not exclusively on one sex or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




By evolutionary: I mean that you never really see a lioness walking around 'forcing' herself onto males. The males are usually the dominant ones and the females either accept or decline. Same with people. Never really seen a lioness turn over and sleep while she was horny to teach her mate a lesson 


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> By evolutionary: I mean that you never really see a lioness walking around 'forcing' herself onto males. The males are usually the dominant ones and the females either accept or decline. Same with people. Never really seen a lioness turn over and sleep while she was horny to teach her mate a lesson
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure I am following you. You mean women cannot be dominant in their relationships?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Update, week 3 - same time, same place (lol). Went up to bed not thinking about sex. She got into bed a couple of minutes before me, naked, and not hiding it, so... it happened.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What do you mean 'it happened'?! She initiated the **** out of it! 
That's as much initiation as a male should ever hope to get.
You're not gonna get my sympathy anymore 
Anyway: I'm sure you'll figure out the right balance. You both seem like smart people.




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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

So much for not chasing her? You did, and she responded . Awesome. You even obeyed and waited for Saturday.
You get something out of the flirting all day, it meets some of your needs. She gets credit for doing it, and it seemed to turn her on as well. 
I don't see a problem in this?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> What do you mean 'it happened'?! She initiated the **** out of it!
> That's as much initiation as a male should ever hope to get.
> You're not gonna get my sympathy anymore
> Anyway: I'm sure you'll figure out the right balance. You both seem like smart people.
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean 'it happened'?! She initiated the **** out of it!
> ...


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

alexm said:


> I was never looking for sympathy
> 
> But look, the 'initiation' isn't really initiation. I don't think it fits most people's definition of it. Some do see it as such. And it's still on the same day, same time, etc.
> 
> ...


I think that your behavior (pulling back a bit, not asking, not expecting sex, etc) showed confidence. Confidence in yourself, and that is a turn on. To most women. 

I'm happy this worked out for you!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean 'it happened'?! She initiated the **** out of it!
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Not sure I am following you. You mean women cannot be dominant in their relationships?


No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that sexual initiation doesn't come natural to many women. Just like asking for sex doesn't come natural to many men.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > Btw how is grabbing her butt all day and telling her sexy things 'not chasing'? (Or 'avoiding'?)
> ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm an introvert and social gatherings are quite taxing for me.
> 
> On the other hand, it's common for me to be the life of the party and appear to be having a great time (and I usually* am* having a great time). However, I can only handle this in limited quantities. Too many parties and I'd be mentally exhausted.
> 
> So, how can I enjoy parties and not want to go to them all the time?


Little scary how accurately this describes me as well lol.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

alexm said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > The old me (and likely most men, period) are looking for sex when doing things like this. Or getting upset (inwardly or outwardly) if it doesn't happen. Or creating expectations for their partners.
> ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Wow, this thread is moving fast, just getting caught up now lol. Couple of comments:

In regards to @Hope1964 , IIRC the issues she has described are issues that had been discussed ad nauseam with her H, they have gone to MC (which he pretty much dismissed, etc...). It is easy to just sit here and say "why don't you just roll with" , but try doing that when apparently he has made little effort over the years (and let's be honest, that "initiating" Hope posted was flat out strange). 

The other item was about wanting to be desired. We all want to be desired, and for each of us, we have a slightly different interpretation of what it means to feel desired (I guess in part our "love language"). Ideally, both people in the relationship are able to not only communicate what their love language is, but as well understand their SOs love language. For those in particular who have a rather different love language from each other, it seems that issues arise when one or both people only focus on their love language without taking into consideration their SO. You can see this just from this thread, where one person may feel desired by their SO initiating physical contact (sex, not MMA lol) whereas another person prefers more verbal cues (i.e. talking about their day, etc...). If things get too one sided (no matter how good your intentions are), frustrating/resentment is highly likely to set in (for example those who want to be desired but show little interest/effort in reciprocating).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Wow, this thread is moving fast, just getting caught up now lol. Couple of comments:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok I have not being around and don't know their backstory or what changes he's expected to make and by whom. (Does the husband post here too? We only hear her side of the story on this issue and it is likely to be very skewed).
On the face of it, no, it didn't sound 'strange' to me (it's not the way I would initiate but my point was that she KNEW what it was he was doing and shut him down. And that was all that I commented on). It is precisely analogous to Alexm taking a deck of cards out in order to try new positions. They both tried, at least.
I have done plenty of 'weird' initiations...Try giving your partner an overpriced vibrator that creates electric stimulation to encourage Kegel exercises as a Valentine's Day present, shortly after giving birth...I would have been better off buying her an ironing board.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ok I have not being around and don't know their backstory or what changes he's expected to make and by whom. (Does the husband post here too? We only hear her side of the story on this issue and it is likely to be very skewed).
> On the face of it, no, it didn't sound 'strange' to me (it's not the way I would initiate but my point was that she KNEW what it was he was doing and shut him down. And that was all that I commented on). It is precisely analogous to Alexm taking a deck of cards out in order to try new positions. They both tried, at least.
> I have done plenty of 'weird' initiations...Try giving your partner an overpriced vibrator that creates electric stimulation to encourage Kegel exercises as a Valentine's Day present, shortly after giving birth...I would have been better off buying her an ironing board.
> 
> ...


How did she respond to that gift, if I may ask?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Ok I have not being around and don't know their backstory or what changes he's expected to make and by whom. (Does the husband post here too? We only hear her side of the story on this issue and it is likely to be very skewed).
> On the face of it, no, it didn't sound 'strange' to me (it's not the way I would initiate but my point was that she KNEW what it was he was doing and shut him down. And that was all that I commented on). It is precisely analogous to Alexm taking a deck of cards out in order to try new positions. They both tried, at least.
> I have done plenty of 'weird' initiations...Try giving your partner an overpriced vibrator that creates electric stimulation to encourage Kegel exercises as a Valentine's Day present, shortly after giving birth...I would have been better off buying her an ironing board.
> 
> ...


I would say 99% of the posters here don't have their SO posting, so that should help answer your question :grin2: Agreed that getting only one side can lead to a skewed POV, but just going by what she posted (which is all we have to go with) it just seems odd to expect her to just "roll with it". Just my opinion of course, no different than anyone else here.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I have 'rolled with it' for 20 years and, like I keep saying, I've had enough. Like Alex, I am trying to change my own approach to extracting sex from my husband. It's ridiculous to have to go through that scenario I posted a few days ago, or some variation thereof, just to get my rocks off. I don't feel desired or wanted, I don't feel loved, and I frankly just can't be bothered any more. SO I decided to stop pursuing him when he sends his ambiguous signals. And it seems to be working.

This weekend he actually opened up to me and we talked about things and he admitted some stuff to me that he never has before, about why his interest in sex has waned over the last while. He never even admitted before that it HAD waned. And he FINALLY made a definitive, assertive advance toward me that turned me on a lot  And it all started when he came to me and asked me what he could do. What HE could do.

There's hope for the boy yet


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Again, it's too early to tell anything from any of this. But 3 weeks in a row it has been different. It's felt different.
> 
> And that's the point. I'm not trying to change her, I'm changing my own mindset about the subject.
> 
> .


Yep. Change yourself and the world will change with you. 

Not necessarily in the sort of cause-effect way that makes everything work out exactly the way you want it to. But, as with all other things, the world you experience is a directly related to the person that you are.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I would say 99% of the posters here don't have their SO posting, so that should help answer your question :grin2: Agreed that getting only one side can lead to a skewed POV, but just going by what she posted (which is all we have to go with) it just seems odd to expect her to just "roll with it". Just my opinion of course, no different than anyone else here.


The suggestion to "roll with it" was just a way of suggesting that waiting for someone else to change is pretty much a guaranteed way to spend your time banging your head against a wall. So, instead of working on making them over into your vision, you can work with who they actually are.

If that's not tenable, then of course you put your foot down. This may or may not motivate change on the part of the other person. 

Personally, I think boundaries and putting your foot down are good things. But at the same time, you're fooling yourself if you think that just because you have boundaries, you will get what you want. 

But if you do, awesome!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> How did she respond to that gift, if I may ask?


She electrocuted me with it (almost).

Badly basically. I don't know how to give those kinds of presents without a violent reaction...The best 'technique' yet I found for those 'presents' is just to *use* them while 'in the moment' rather than actually 'give' them. Otherwise it makes women too self conscious, it seems...It's easier to convince them of their usefulness when they are being used, at the right moment.
But difficult in practice. It means they have to be readily accessible somewhere near the bed. And if the toddler accidentally finds a 'toy', it doesn't make us look like good parents, no matter how you look at it...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I have 'rolled with it' for 20 years and, like I keep saying, I've had enough. Like Alex, I am trying to change my own approach to *extracting sex from my husband.*


I like the phrasing. I wish my wife could incorporate it into our foreplay  Maybe I play too easy as a 'victim'.
Anyway: good progress I guess is a good thing.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

alexm said:


> Update, week 3 - same time, same place (lol). Went up to bed not thinking about sex. She got into bed a couple of minutes before me, naked, and not hiding it, so... it happened.
> 
> Funny thing, I think she was actually turned on beforehand,
> 
> ...


Alex, some thoughts, having snipped your post into what I think is most important:

1. This is great. 
2. This is her initiating. 
3. You did well all day and turned her on. 
4. You both enjoyed yourselves. 
5. What you are describing is an organic connection, not schedule at all. 
6. Absolutely your attitude fostered the greenhouse for this to grow and happen. 

Look, I complained about lack of desire and too much plain vanilla ice cream. I get what you're talking about. I do. 

When your wife giggles at your naughtiness all day and them comes to bed naked, well ... what do you think she wants? 

More importantly, what do you think she wants to do for you and to you?

Look, sometimes it's pretty incredible when your wife grabs you by the neck and says, "I need to fcuk you now." And sometimes that will happen for you. But . . . When your wife giggles about your grabbiness all day and coyly protests, then hops into bed in her birthday suit, what do you think she is wanting - the same thing, I'd wager, except with you as the aggressor. She's saying "take me" ...

Some women are much more comfortable with and, by extension receptive, to "take me" than they are to "give me." 

Congratulations for creating the "take me" desire. Now, think about how your behavior over the last couple weeks has fostered that and build on it. Hint - self doubt and irrational timidity and "take me" are antithetical to one another. Arrogance is not what you're going for either. Compassionate self confidence is.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

neuklas said:


> Alex, some thoughts, having snipped your post into what I think is most important:
> 
> 1. This is great.
> 2. This is her initiating.
> ...


Totally.

The hard thing to wrap my brain around is that the way I've been for all those years was essentially fostered (and even conditioned, one might say) by my wife. That's where the timidity and reluctance came from in the first place. MY fault, yes, for allowing it to happen, but nonetheless - ingrained in me by her. I'm not resentful, btw, it is what it is.

The problem (and I've said this here before) is that my wife, early on in our relationship, essentially cautioned me to not be the way her ex was. She didn't outright say "don't do this", I mean more along the lines of, while telling me things about that time in her life, made it abundantly clear what she severely disliked.

By contrast, she initially raved about my willingness to pay attention to her sexually... It always seemed to me that I was the first guy to ever actually spend time on her in that way, ensure she has a good time, orgasms, orgasms more than once, give oral sex longer than 30 seconds, etc.

So for the first few years, I thought (or really, it was implied to me) that I was being the man she wanted, that she never had, including in bed. And I really think I was. I was respectful to her (which is in my nature anyway), I focused on her sexual pleasure (also in my nature), I was gentle, caring and loving, but also capable of quickies and outright 'banging' when the time was right. I really did mix it up.

So whatever, this seems to be working for the moment.

People change, we all know that. Where once my approach was perfect, and what she wanted, it suddenly wasn't for a while. Now it seems like it's back to where she's responsive - yet it's in the way she initially derided (well, not quite to that level). It's a balance, I guess. But for the first couple of years, she wanted it that way.

But I also realize that it was the vibe I was giving off, too. Whatever confidence I had was obviously shaken, and it was probably visible, or at least felt. It was hard not to do that. When you're told almost right off the bat that you're doing it 'right' and you're being appreciated for it, then a couple of years later, that mindset has changed (yet you haven't), it'll shake you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Alex, when you say your wife "fostered" or "conditioned" you, it sounds like you are handing responsibility to her for your actions or feelings. 

It can cause resentment in any of us if we hand over our power like that, and the other person does not do what we want.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Alex - 

One thing I desire, as a woman, is the ability to have my husband be totally separate from my moods. 

You said it yourself- people change. Preferences change. 

My husband wants to be a good husband and wants to serve me well. The thing is...I don't want to be "served". I want him to stand beside me as his own individual with his own wants/needs/desires, and I want him to communicate those to me honestly. Including when our desires don't match. I want him to stand up for himself and go after what he wants. I want him to be ready to negotiate with me, to convince me, to debate with me as an equal. I do not want him to tiptoe around me and try to plan his moves around guessing what might make me happy. That is a fools errand, because my happiness isn't his to manage. That's on me. 

That doesn't mean I want him to be a ****. The concept, first do no harm, applies. But he does have a right to pursue his own happiness and goals, knowing that sometimes in order to get it he needs to put himself first, and sometimes point blank tell me we are doing things his way. 

In order to get there - I think a man needs to be able to separate himself mentally from the idea that he is responsible for all of his wife's whims. Women are by nature, moody. I hate that about myself, honestly, but these dang hormones are not something I can control. I would like for my spouse to be able to weather my moods and if I am really being intolerable, tell me and put up some boundaries. 

I'm happy things are going well for you. I think part of the reason why is because you detached yourself from her mental state. You stopped trying to game your moves and predict her responses and instead pursued your own agenda, for your own gain. 

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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> .
> 
> It's a real catch-22. It's obvious to me and anybody else that she would rather I be more... forceful? and take what I want, so to speak. But, as is typical, those opportunities are few and far between. The above quoted post from 2015 or whenever defines quite nicely the whole dynamic, in which she hints at something, then pulls back, hints at something, then pulls back. Non-verbally says "do this", then essentially disallows it if it diverts even minutely.


The problem is that they want you to want to "take" them, but they want to say "no" most of the time you try it. Only a sociopath would keep trying to "take" them after a string of "no"s.

I suspect "taking them" really only works out in very good relationships or with submissive women.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> The crucial difference (and why it's so asymmetric) is that the wife knows that her husband wants to ****, the husband has no idea that the wife wants to be ****ed and is trying (pathetically or not) to figure it out. The power is in the wife's hands, so to speak.


The problem is that a large part of what makes the woman want to be ****ed is her knowledge that her husband wants to **** her.

So, if he doesn't make that urgent desire clear, she may not want to.

Most women aren't sitting around with testosterone coursing through their system giving them the spontaneous desire to ****. 

On the other hand, if a guy initiates and is regularly turned down, any normal man is going to stop strongly initiating. They're going to start weakly initiating (if at all) to protect their ego from the likely rejection. Men who lack sexual self confidence don't need to be rejected very often (or very obviously) to stop initiating strongly. 

The only way for this to work is for the man to strongly initiate on a regular basis and rarely be rejected.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Like I said, she seemed into it _beforehand_, this time. I did spend the day doing things I don't normally do to her, or haven't in a while. She made it abundantly clear in the past that she didn't like being grabbed... Or if I ever said things to her like "nice tits", she'd normally just give me a look.


She was receptive to you. That's why these things, which at other times she would object to, worked.

Of course, what made her receptive is the question. 

Probably your actions the previous two weeks played a role, but we'll never know for sure. At some other time the exact same actions on your part will produce different results


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> Not sure I am following you. You mean women cannot be dominant in their relationships?


They most certainly *can* be dominant in their relationships (and often are).

But, I really wonder how happy they are about it? Serious question. Anyone know of any research in this area?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> The problem is that a large part of what makes the woman want to be ****ed is her knowledge that her husband wants to **** her.
> 
> So, if he doesn't make that urgent desire clear, she may not want to.
> 
> ...


So this brings up the question, why is rejection acceptable? Figure that no one likes to be rejected, and I am not saying that your SO should have free range to every thing they want. Is it really as simple as the passive aggressive way of dealing with things instead of communicating what the issues are?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> Totally.
> 
> The hard thing to wrap my brain around is that the way I've been for all those years was essentially fostered (and even conditioned, one might say) by my wife. That's where the timidity and reluctance came from in the first place. MY fault, yes, for allowing it to happen, but nonetheless - ingrained in me by her. I'm not resentful, btw, it is what it is.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you get lost in trying to take care of your partner--in trying to understand them, please them, do right by them, love them. It can happen out of love, a sense of duty, a wish for reciprocation: lots of different reasons. It's not always the result of some unhealthy aspect of one's personality, or of a dysfunction in the relationship. 

It's a very normal aspect of long term relationships--most particularly those in which there are other things demanding of time and focus, like parenthood, careers, home ownerships, etc. But then one day you wake up and realize that who and what you are has become subsumed. And you wonder how do I get this back without rocking the boat? How do I restore balance?

I think a good place to start is to remember that, while you have a sex life WITH you partner, you are still a sexual being as an individual, with certain needs, predilections, desires, kinks, fantasies, whatever. And your partner has a sexuality that is completely theirs, separate from your own. The sexual relationship that you have WITH your partner doesn't negate your individual sexuality, but it also might not totally satisfy it, either. But trying to get satisfaction for your own sexuality by trying to guess at hers and changing your behavior accordingly just mucks things up. 

Don't apologize for your sexuality, and don't hide it from your partner. Approach sex from who YOU are, not from who you *think* SHE is. Sure, you have to be aware of her limits, but if you initiate sex thinking "how am I going to please her," then, IMO, she's going to feel that pressure. 

Approach sex from how YOU like it, and so she can respond to YOU instead of responding to *your version* of her sexuality.

That seems to be the track you are on now, and I think it's a good one.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> So this brings up the question, why is rejection acceptable? Figure that no one likes to be rejected, and I am not saying that your SO should have free range to every thing they want. Is it really as simple as the passive aggressive way of dealing with things instead of communicating what the issues are?


In a good, loving relationship, it shouldn't be.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Alex -
> 
> One thing I desire, as a woman, is the ability to have my husband be totally separate from my moods.
> 
> ...


The bolded reminds me of what GI has said about her husband.

Would you agree, GI?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> So this brings up the question, why is rejection acceptable? Figure that no one likes to be rejected, and I am not saying that your SO should have free range to every thing they want. Is it really as simple as the passive aggressive way of dealing with things *instead of communicating what the issues are?*


Sometimes it's easy of the rejector to identify what the reason is, and when it's a once in awhile reason and not a chronic excuse, then it's more palatable for the rejectee to accept and roll with it. "I'm too tired" after an obviously and unusually busy day or duing an intensely demanding time is one thing. "I'm too tired" 90% of the time when things are stable makes a partner wonder what else might be going on. 

But sometimes the rejector doesn't really know why they don't feel like sex: they just don't. So while it is a matter of communication, it's not always as simple as the rejector not "telling the whole story" or keeping something secret from their spouse. 

Finding the incentive/motivation to figure ourselves out so that we can communicate the truth to our partners is only the first step. The second is having enough trust to be vulnerable with the truth to our partners. 

Some people never do the first step. 

Others figure themselves out, but cannot bring themselves to share that part of themselves with their partner. 

Some figure it out, share, and let the chips fall where they may.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The only way for this to work is for the man to strongly initiate on a regular basis and rarely be rejected.


Or to leave quickly and cleanly if he is. That is where us wimpy doormats create our own problems. By not saying "hey, you can turn me down any time you like, but if you do it again, I am outta here." And then smile and say "seeya" when she turns you down again. Only if she comes chasing when you leave over the rejections do you have any chance for a relationship between equals. If you back down, you are under her thumb forever. And you both know it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Can I ask why the turnaround? What was the reason you not liking sex with your husband and now that it's something you want and need? Is it something you were able to condition yourself to or has something happened?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry @inmyprime, I just saw your questions to me. It's a long story; I think my original thread is probably around here somewhere. But yes I did have a very sudden revelation that changed my whole perspective on things. Basically, I accidentally found TAM and finally "got it" when I read so many men saying the same things about intimacy and sex in their marriage. My sexual attraction for him literally came crashing back in an instant. We were able to rebuild our marriage on so many levels once the sex was back in play. Turns out we both need it as a foundation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Or to leave quickly and cleanly if he is. That is where us wimpy doormats create our own problems. *By not saying "hey, you can turn me down any time you like, but if you do it again, I am outta here." And then smile and say "seeya" when she turns you down again. * Only if she comes chasing when you leave over the rejections do you have any chance for a relationship between equals. If you back down, you are under her thumb forever. And you both know it.


Isn't this just going to set up a power struggle, with threats and resentment on both sides?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> She was receptive to you. That's why these things, which at other times she would object to, worked.
> 
> Of course, what made her receptive is the question.
> 
> Probably your actions the previous two weeks played a role, but we'll never know for sure. At some other time the exact same actions on your part will produce different results


Maybe, probably. But I don't care. That's the difference. I'm not looking for, or expecting anything. If it happens - great! If it doesn't - oh well, it's not going to bother me. I grabbed her butt a dozen times because I wanted to, not to get a rise out of her, or to indicate I wanted to have sex with her.

That's what I've been doing the last few weeks, and there's already been a difference in my own perception. I think there has been one in hers, as well.

As said, it's sexual self confidence.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Sorry @inmyprime, I just saw your questions to me. It's a long story; I think my original thread is probably around here somewhere. But yes I did have a very sudden revelation that changed my whole perspective on things. Basically, I accidentally found TAM and finally "got it" when I read so many men saying the same things about intimacy and sex in their marriage. My sexual attraction for him literally came crashing back in an instant. We were able to rebuild our marriage on so many levels once the sex was back in play. Turns out we both need it as a foundation.




I will try to find your thread. Would you say it was guilt that powered up your sex drive/compassion back again? How long ago was it? I hope it stays that way in any case.
It's interesting that it takes other men to say it, for a partner to understand what their husband is going through. I guess your husband must also not have found it easy to communicate this.
For me (and possibly other men too), it is difficult to relate to the mindset of sexual attraction appearing/disappearing and then reappearing again. I can say with certainty than mine was pretty much constant. No matter how many problems/disagreements we had. I think this creates an extra layer of insecurity for a man (like questioning whether my wife finds me attractive in the first place, if she needed to make herself feel guilty about our relationship).
Hence why I mentioned hyper bonding. Of course if it then can become a permanent state, then great.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> Maybe, probably. But I don't care. That's the difference. I'm not looking for, or expecting anything. If it happens - great! If it doesn't - oh well, it's not going to bother me. I grabbed her butt a dozen times because I wanted to, not to get a rise out of her, or to indicate I wanted to have sex with her.
> 
> That's what I've been doing the last few weeks, and there's already been a difference in my own perception. I think there has been one in hers, as well.
> 
> As said, it's sexual self confidence.


If you want to take your self confidence up a notch, start grabbing your own butt ...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think a good place to start is to remember that, while you have a sex life WITH you partner, you are still a sexual being as an individual, with certain needs, predilections, desires, kinks, fantasies, whatever. And your partner has a sexuality that is completely theirs, separate from your own. The sexual relationship that you have WITH your partner doesn't negate your individual sexuality, but it also might not totally satisfy it, either. But trying to get satisfaction for your own sexuality by trying to guess at hers and changing your behavior accordingly just mucks things up.
> 
> Don't apologize for your sexuality, and don't hide it from your partner. Approach sex from who YOU are, not from who you *think* SHE is. Sure, you have to be aware of her limits, but if you initiate sex thinking "how am I going to please her," then, IMO, she's going to feel that pressure.
> 
> ...


Yes, this strikes me as extra smart advice. Especially since it really seems that there's a whole lot of assuming about what is going on in the mind of the wife, and women generally, for that matter, about what we like and want and think. And a lot of it strikes me as quite off base. At least if I read it through my own lens of experience.


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## Journee723 (Apr 26, 2017)

peacem said:


> Don't stop having sex! Especially when you say its good. I would use her schedule as an opportunity to have sex 'differently' to make it less boring and routine. So you could try doing something different each week so it would give you something to look forward to and excite you.
> 
> 
> 
> I know scheduled sex can seem a bit boring, but actually the alternative to never knowing whether you are going to get it is far worse and frustrating. You definitely need to add flirtation and romance into your scheduled day to make it special....




This may be the only response I have seen that makes total sense to me! 


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> Yes, this strikes me as extra smart advice. Especially since it really seems that there's a whole lot of assuming about what is going on in the mind of the wife, and women generally, for that matter, about what we like and want and think. And a lot of it strikes me as quite off base. At least if I read it through my own lens of experience.


There tends to be a lot of assuming going on because some people just don't communicate what they actually want.

In my case, I tried. Over and over again. I tried to get my wife to open up to me, tell me what she really likes and wants, to no avail. I fostered a relationship of trust, of non-judgement, of being safe, of being able to communicate.

Assuming is never good, but when it's all you have.. it's all you have.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Assuming is never good, but when it's all you have.. it's all you have.


Can't argue with that! 

I'm curious, though. Is that really all she will give you? 

Certainly from what you've said, she seems a private person who is uncomfortable with revealing her deep darks. But it also seems she is free enough with some information. Is that not enough for you to work with?

(I get the impression that sometimes you simply don't believe her when she tells you how she is.)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> There tends to be a lot of assuming going on because some people just don't communicate what they actually want.
> 
> In my case, I tried. Over and over again. I tried to get my wife to open up to me, tell me what she really likes and wants, to no avail. I fostered a relationship of trust, of non-judgement, of being safe, of being able to communicate.
> 
> Assuming is never good, but when it's all you have.. it's all you have.


For women, it's often the case that they don't *know* exactly what they actually want.

Female sexuality is much more complex than male sexuality.

Women are more likely to have conflict between what actually drives their sexuality and what they *think* drives it.

So trying to get them to communicate their desires verbally is often a waste of effort.

There is no way my wife could have told me years ago what gets her hot today. She didn't know. 

There's no way I could have guessed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> For women, it's often the case that they don't *know* exactly what they actually want.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's funny you mention guessing. I managed to figure my wife's turns on out by trial and error. Lots of error....But got concerned that maybe something wasn't right or normal etc when I noticed the kind of stuff she was responsive to. I posted here on TAM (it's in my 'in this normal' thread). If I had read TAM previously I probably would have figured it out much sooner. I always thought I wasn't being gentle or caring enough etc but that was totally not the right direction to take...
I think Alexm is getting to that point now too. (It's also important to figure yourself out first). 
Hopefully fulfilling/amazing sex life awaits! (That's not to say I finished figuring it out. It's never 'finished' and it can always be better.)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> Can't argue with that!
> 
> I'm curious, though. Is that really all she will give you?
> 
> ...


Here I am assuming again...!

I think she's always been a little insecure about herself. She's had the normal amount of relationship pains (a-holes, cheaters, users, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary, I don't think). Couple that with a general inability to cope with things (she shuts down, effectively), you can start to see why she is the way she is.

I've only said this here once or twice before, but she and I were high school sweethearts, our first boyfriend/girlfriend. Almost 3 years together. Broke up at the end of high school. I dated (briefly) and then met my now ex-wife. She dated like any normal 18 year old would, then met a guy she stayed with. Our relationship, despite being 3 years long, was not _super_-serious. We were exclusive, but it was also more a learning experience than anything else. We talked about college, and living together, and marriage and kids, but I don't think either of us really believed we'd go that route.

I've also said that I think she was once capable of giving her all to somebody - and it seems as though it was her next serious relationship. That somebody took that trust and threw it away, causing great pain. Also lasted 3 years. She didn't have another serious relationship until 6 or 7 years later. He did the same thing. Ended at 3 years. And I came along about a year after that. And here I am.

Each of her previous LTR's lasted about 3 years. It's not a surprise that our relationship changed around this general period of time, too, I don't think. The first (her and I in high school) didn't end badly. We just went our separate ways after high school ended. She did break my heart, but whatever - teenage love, it's to be expected! The second, he started cheating. The third, he turned into a grade 'A' ******* after their child was born.

None of those LTR's ended for the same reason, nor did they really have anything to do with her sexuality, however, they did kind of all have a link to sex, in one way or another. With ours, it fizzled out, but we both also realized we wanted to test the waters and see what else was out there (she was just the one to say it first, hence the broken heart, lol!). With the second, he started cheating on her. Why, I don't know. They were like 20, and had just moved in together after like 2 1/2 years of dating. I don't get the impression she "drove him to it". Maybe he got scared. The third, she didn't "put out" quickly enough after giving birth, and as his previous marriage ended with his ex wife cheating, he obviously triggered and started down that road with her. Like within less than a month of having a c-section, she was "clearly getting it elsewhere" because he wasn't getting any :| True story. Jeckyl and Hyde, as she puts it.

When you say that I don't believe her, that's not exactly true. When she self-identified as asexual several years ago (which was introduced to her by me, sigh) I thought it made sense. And at the time, it did. However, upon reflection (and over analyzation!) I don't believe that's really the case. I would not, and have not ever said that to her, however. But the more I (over) think about it, the more I see a pattern with her previous LTR's. The reality is that she was much more free, sexually, when casually dating, or single. When there was no chance of getting hurt. Follow what I mean?

Anyway, I hate analyzing her like that, it's not fair. It is what it is. I don't really want to revisit this particular topic


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Oh wow. We were also school sweethearts. Got together around 15. Except we stayed (we almost didn't manage). I did hurt her once or twice and she hurt me once. Nothing major, but we both developed distance and began drifting apart at one point.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I will try to find your thread. Would you say it was guilt that powered up your sex drive/compassion back again? How long ago was it? I hope it stays that way in any case.
> It's interesting that it takes other men to say it, for a partner to understand what their husband is going through. I guess your husband must also not have found it easy to communicate this.
> For me (and possibly other men too), it is difficult to relate to the mindset of sexual attraction appearing/disappearing and then reappearing again. I can say with certainty than mine was pretty much constant. No matter how many problems/disagreements we had. I think this creates an extra layer of insecurity for a man (like questioning whether my wife finds me attractive in the first place, if she needed to make herself feel guilty about our relationship).
> Hence why I mentioned hyper bonding. Of course if it then can become a permanent state, then great.
> ...


I don't think it was guilt that brought it back; rather I realized how wrong I'd been in the assumptions I was making about why sex was important to him. I did feel overwhelming guilt when I realized how bad it must have been for him, and that he'd stood by me and our family and always did the honorable thing in trying to honestly communicate to me about it. He never cheated, he never tried to punish me. He just . . . coped the best he could. 

It was four years ago. I'll search for the thread and PM you; I had a slightly different user name.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I don't think it was guilt that brought it back; rather I realized how wrong I'd been in the assumptions I was making about why sex was important to him. *I did feel overwhelming guilt when I realized how bad it must have been for him*, and that he'd stood by me and our family and always did the honorable thing in trying to honestly communicate to me about it. He never cheated, he never tried to punish me. He just . . . coped the best he could.
> 
> It was four years ago. I'll search for the thread and PM you; I had a slightly different user name.


Yes, that's what I meant when I wrote about guilt.
Amazing. I wish there was a way to make this change of mind into a pill. I guess these epiphanies are rare and far inbetween.
I still feel on occasion that my wife often thinks sex for me is just another hole to fill. I think this comes from misunderstanding what spontaneous desire means. It takes so much effort for me to convince her that it is *her* and then only one stupid joke from me to ruin it all again...
We used to argue about it a lot.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> For women, it's often the case that they don't *know* exactly what they actually want.
> 
> Female sexuality is much more complex than male sexuality.
> 
> ...


LOL. Women are no more complex and no less self aware than men are. 

Just because you have easier access to your head than to your wife's doesn't make you any easier to understand or your perspective any simpler or easier to understand. :wink2:


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Here I am assuming again...!


Thanks for sharing, Alex! 

I think inference is okay, so is observation. Overanalysis, though, easily leads you down the road of wishful thinking rather than actual reality. The mind is a funny thing, and I get the impression it isn't actually your wife that's the most prone to overcomplicating things. :wink2:

Like @GettingIt_2 said, though. Know yourself, be yourself, and she will be herself. 

And hopefully things work out great for both of you!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> Thanks for sharing, Alex!
> 
> I think inference is okay, so is observation. Overanalysis, though, easily leads you down the road of wishful thinking rather than actual reality. The mind is a funny thing, and I get the impression it isn't actually your wife that's the most prone to overcomplicating things. :wink2:


You're absolutely right. If anything, she over-simplifies! We each could benefit from meeting in the middle, I think...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> LOL. Women are no more complex and no less self aware than men are.
> 
> Just because you have easier access to your head than to your wife's doesn't make you any easier to understand or your perspective any simpler or easier to understand. :wink2:


I didn't say that women are more complex and less self-aware than men.

I said that women's sexuality (as a rule) is more complex than men's sexuality (as a rule).

You can take the position that they are essentially the same because that sounds like "equality" but I don't think that point of view reflects reality. 

If one starts with assumptions that sound good but don't reflect reality, that usually makes it harder to solve the problem.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I didn't say that women are more complex and less self-aware than men.
> 
> I said that women's sexuality (as a rule) is more complex than men's sexuality (as a rule).
> 
> ...


Okay, sorry, let me rephrase. Women's sexuality is no more complex than men's sexuality.

This has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with reality. I've noticed that men on TAM really like to describe themselves as "simple", and women as "complex", but IME there's no truth to it. Men's sexuality is also influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, spirituality, you name it. And women are nowhere near as convoluted as you like to portray us. Well, maybe your wife is. But I'm not. And I'm not alone.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Okay, sorry, let me rephrase. Women's sexuality is no more complex than men's sexuality.
> 
> This has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with reality. I've noticed that men on TAM really like to describe themselves as "simple", and women as "complex", but IME there's no truth to it. Men's sexuality is also influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, spirituality, you name it. And women are nowhere near as convoluted as you like to portray us. Well, maybe your wife is. But I'm not. And I'm not alone.


I also get tired of the "men are simple, women are so complex even THEY don't know what they want" mantra around here.

SOME women definitely DO know what they want and can express it, execute it, and relish in getting it when they do.

Yet those of us women who are in that category can post here all day long about what we want, and still there will be some dudes saying "no, you don't really know what you want, you say this but you don't even know yourself".

Sigh...

And then there are the men who are not sexually self aware, who don't actually know what they want (what causes an easy orgasm is not necessarily "what they want"), and who wouldn't be able to communicate what they wanted even if they tried.

Men like this are ignored and completely drowned out by other men who claim over and over that "men are simple, women are complex and don't know what they want". 

Women who have been with men like this are told "he is probably gay".

Men who have been with women who don't fulfill them sexually are told "she's just a cold witch and has no idea what she really wants".

Meanwhile back in reality, the wife of the above man may have been telling her husband for years EXACTLY what she wants, but because HE doesn't understand what HE really wants, he can't even hear her. Then he projects the failure of the sexual relationship on her because he couldn't possibly be "the problem" since "men are simple". 

It is always so easy to blame the other person.

I followed the story of a sex starved couple for several years. He told his version first. It was the usual: Sex was ok and semi frequent in the beginning. Now we have a kid, her sex drive tanked, I try to do everything to help her load with the kid and the house, but she still complains of being tired all the time and makes excuses. She is the problem, not me. I am trying, she is not. Wah wah wah....victim speak yada yada yada.

The wife of that couple eventually joined that forum and told us her side of the story. The main problem for her was that her husband smoked, and she was extremely sensitive to the smell of smoke and couldn't tolerate smelling it on him. She requested that if he approached her for sex, he showered first if he had smoked. He refused to do it.

She was in love with her husband. She wanted very much a good sexual relationship with him. But since he wouldn't ever listen to her and refused to shower before he tried to kiss her or initiate, she gathered that actually having a sexual connection wasn't that important to him, he just wanted to sound like a victim but do nothing to address her legitimate request.

After a few years of reading both sides of their story on that forum, it was clear that he just wanted to whine about the lack of sex but wanted no part of actually addressing her issues about having sex with him.

Eventually it became clear that HE was his own c*ck blocker, not her. HE was the one who had been given precise instructions on how to seduce her, because she DID know what she wanted and was able to communicate it to him. Yet he simply didn't want to be bothered with taking any actions that would address her concerns. It would have been so simple, and he went to great lengths to defend why he didn't, wouldn't or couldn't simply take a shower before he initiated kissing or sex.

And further on down the story...it eventually became obvious that he was deliberately refusing to take a shower and was thereby ensuring that he would remain sexless.

Why would he do this yet try to claim victim status over and over to the others on the forum?

The eventual answer was that he was insecure. He didn't feel comfortable in his body or in his sexual skills. He used the smoking issue as a reason to avoid intimacy with his wife, while at the same time claiming victim status that SHE was the one rejecting him. The reality was that he was rejecting her. He knew what he would have to do, he knew she wanted to be sexual with him, but he had a way to avoid sex with her altogether, which he used because he didn't want to admit or reveal that HE is actually the one who wanted to avoid sex. He was not even consciously aware he was doing this. He could not admit that he was actually too afraid to have sex with her. He had to appear "manly" to himself and others and appear to be the one who wanted sex but was being rejected. This was simply a ruse and a way to continue avoiding intimacy, which is what he really feared most of all.

Men are simple and know what they want, but women are complex and don't know what they want?

Screw that. People are complex and some of them know what they want while others don't.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Some* women's sexuality is way more complex than that of men. *Some* women don't really know or understand what they want. Those are the women some of the men here are probably referring to. I don't know why these conversations have to always become about the 'battle of the sexes'. Men are just trying to figure out their women. There is nothing more to it. (I don't think?) There should be some sort of general disclaimer: 'this is not a generalisation. Terms & conditions as well as numerous exceptions apply'.
Or are you implying that all men are too stupid to work it out? 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I also get tired of the "men are simple, women are so complex even THEY don't know what they want" mantra around here.
> 
> SOME women definitely DO know what they want and can express it, execute it, and relish in getting it when they do.
> 
> ...




Yes, agree with your last para. The problem is we mostly get to hear only one side of the story and many are already attuned to this and try to ask searching questions about the other side to try and get a fuller picture. It often still remains only one perspective of the story. What is one supposed to do then, say I can't help you until your wife signs up for TAM and tells us her side?
I do generally believe, deep down there is never only one side responsible for all the mishaps. It's just not possible. The best recipe for success is to find some sort of compromise.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Men are simple and know what they want, but women are complex and don't know what they want?
> 
> Screw that. People are complex and some of them know what they want while others don't.


Ya, I briefly dated a guy like that once. He was so insecure about his genitalia that he was embarrassed to get naked and had all kinds of excuses and mind games to just avoid sex. 

And, of course, easy orgasm isn't all that easy for some guys. It often takes over an hour and concerted effort for my husband, who has ED. I can assure you that at this point, I know much better what he needs to deal with this than he does. 

Or guys that have the reverse problem and shoot too easily. Or all the fetishes and kinks and whatnot.

Sexuality is pretty complex. Full stop.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> *Some* women's sexuality is way more complex than that of women. *Some* women don't really know or understand what they want. Those are the women some of the men here are probably referring to. I don't know why these conversations have to always become about the 'battle of the sexes'. Men are just trying to figure out their women. There is nothing more to it. (I don't think?) There should be some sort of general disclaimer: 'this is not a generalisation. Terms & conditions as well as numerous exceptions apply'.
> Or are you implying that all men are too stupid to work it out?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There's no "battle of the sexes" here. It's just an observation I've made. In thread after thread are all these, yes, generalizations, that basically say men are simple, and women are complex. And like @Faithful Wife said, so complex that we haven't a clue about ourselves. And it's not a "some" thing. It's clear that this is supposed to be some kind of rule for helping people understand the sexes.

It's kind of funny, actually. But also kind of sad. And certainly not terribly helpful in figuring anything out.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, agree with your last para. The problem is we mostly get to hear only one side of the story and many are already attuned to this and try to ask searching questions about the other side to try and get a fuller picture. It often still remains only one perspective of the story. What is one supposed to do then, say I can't help you until your wife signs up for TAM and tells us her side?
> *I do generally believe, deep down there is never only one side responsible for all the mishaps.* It's just not possible. The best recipe for success is to find some sort of compromise.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @Faithful Wife @wild jade

The bolded above is how I feel, too. I know that the situation I'm in has something to do with me as well. It's not just my wife.

That said, there are absolutely times when one simply can't extract that all-important information out of them. Will my wife not tell me what she wants because she's afraid of... me? Perhaps.

If she suddenly signed up for TAM and started posting, would it all become more clear? Perhaps.

Am I a stupid man who only hears what he wants to hear? Perhaps (but I don't think so). Certainly not as stupid as the man in your example.

How about this? Instead of 'men being simple, women being complex when it comes to sex' let's say that 'most men need to directly be told something in order for it to sink in'?

I have given my wife one million opportunities to do so with no success. It's not that I'm not listening to her, or not hearing things I don't want to hear. It's that when I've asked "What the hell do you want me to do? What do YOU like?" and otherwise begging her to be direct, the answer is, and always has been "I don't know". I **** you not. I can think of only two things my wife has ever said NOT to do - spank her (and that came out of nowhere) and not to ever put my 
**** near her mouth for oral sex (and it took 3 years for her to say that, and it's not something I regularly did. Also understandable). FWIW, she's also hinted at (never said directly) to be more aggressive, or less passive, anyway. To take her from time to time. To not focus so much on her. But, as you can imagine, that only works when she's in the mood for that, and how on earth am I supposed to know when she is or isn't? Even with the times that I don't care what she's in the mood for, and dammit, I'm just going to take her, it's a 50/50 split whether she actually enjoys it or not.

Look, I'll give you this - many (most...) men do not listen. It's in our genes, I think. But a lot of us do. The example above, of the husband who smokes - that's _not_ not listening, that's stupidity and not giving a ****. That guy was an idiot. He's being told, specifically, what will not work, yet continued to do it. But... how long did it take the wife to tell him that?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> @Faithful Wife @wild jade
> 
> The bolded above is how I feel, too. I know that the situation I'm in has something to do with me as well. It's not just my wife.
> 
> ...




Is there a link to this thread? Would be interesting to read. 
Sounds a bit odd if that's how it really played out. (That he would complain about his wife not putting out while knowing that she didn't do it because he was a smoker). 
I'm not really sure what the example is supposed to illustrate in any case. (It certainly doesn't demonstrate that men, or even just that one man, have a more 'complex' sexuality...Actually it still demonstrates the opposite. Plus his 'deafness'. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Ya, I briefly dated a guy like that once. He was so insecure about his genitalia that he was embarrassed to get naked and had all kinds of excuses and mind games to just avoid sex.



So did he post here to say that it was you who refused sex to him instead? I think this was FW's point and what's under the discussion. Unless I'm getting mixed up.




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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I am both of those guys, and I am fairly sure I have never met @Faithful Wife or @wild jade . 

So the particular guys they mention are not the only ones. I am embarrassed about my genitalia. I avoid sex out of shame and fear. I blame my wife. I shoot early. I don't have any idea what would make sex good for me. And I would be terrified if FW or WJ ever offered to show me what I wanted.

Some men's sexuality is very simple. Some of men have very complex sexuality.

So do some women. The real tragedy is when we pair up together. I am married to @alexm's wife. I have asked her what makes it better or worse for H2. She says she has no idea. she has given hints that on occasion she wants me to be more dominant / aggressive. Other times she shuts down completely if I show any hint of dominance. Calling me names and violently pushing me away. She needs a strong confident man who can weather her outbursts. A man who understands and is comfortable with his own sexuality and with his wife's. Unfortunately, H2 did not marry that man.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> @Look, I'll give you this - many (most...) men do not listen. It's in our genes, I think. But a lot of us do. The example above, of the husband who smokes - that's [I]not[/I] not listening, that's stupidity and not giving a ****. That guy was an idiot. He's being told, specifically, what will not work, yet continued to do it. But... how long did it take the wife to tell him that?[/quote]
> 
> She told him right off the bat. She never hid it from him. He knew all along, he was deliberately being obtuse so that he could avoid having sex with her but yet try to make it look like her choice to reject him. It was messed up.
> [MENTION=3420]alexm I never meant to imply that you are saying "men are simple, women don't know what they want" as a general statement. I don't think you even believe that. I think you understand most beings are somewhat complex, and that some women are simple while some are not. I think your wife is more simple than you think - - but that is because I just assume she is the way she is and there is no more you are going to find out about her that will make your sex life any different for you. I do think you are stuck in a spiral of trying to figure her out, because there's nothing more to figure out....she isn't going to want more sex or different sex than what you are getting right now, IMO. Your trying to figure her out is ultimately trying to figure out how to get more and different sex, and I just don't think that's going to happen. She isn't hiding anything and she isn't going to become more passionate during the week no matter what you learn about her (other than maybe brief flashes of it).
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Faithful Wife is likely correct. Some people just do not have a yellow crayon in their crayon box. No matter how often you ask or how you phrase the request, you will never hear them say "oh, look, here is my yellow crayon".


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you explain what you want directly and the other person is not exactly keen on getting on with the program, that makes it a lot easier for them to stonewall. If you frame your request accordingly, and let the other person participate in the 'discovery' process it actually may work better.

I have found this to be a valuable approach...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Yes, @john117, if you offer to help someone clean up their messy room, rather than ordering them to do so, you increase the odds that the mess gets cleaned up and, lo and behold, you jointly discover there was a yellow crayon under the mess after all.

But sometimes you clean up the room and there is no yellow crayon. Standing in the doorway of a tidy room and saying over and over again "I know you have a yellow crayon stashed away in there somewhere" is eventually going to get tiresome and unwelcome. Do that often enough, and you can trigger someone to stop tidying their room.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Okay, sorry, let me rephrase. Women's sexuality is no more complex than men's sexuality.
> 
> This has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with reality. I've noticed that men on TAM really like to describe themselves as "simple", and women as "complex", but IME there's no truth to it. Men's sexuality is also influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, spirituality, you name it. And women are nowhere near as convoluted as you like to portray us. Well, maybe your wife is. But I'm not. And I'm not alone.


There are, by definition, significant exceptions to any generalization. You're an exception, @Faithful Wife is an exception and so are my wife and I. It is generally true that men are stronger than women. However, knowing this, it would be a significant mistake to assume than any specific man is stronger than any specific woman. One could decide that, since generalizations are not true for every member of a group, no advice can be given without complete knowledge of the individual and their circumstances. That may be a valid point of view but it would make advice sites like TAM worthless. 

Do doubt men's sexuality is influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, etc. But they aren't the same hormones, the same psychology or the same biology. The least likely result would be if, given those differences, both genders ended up with exactly the same drivers of their sexuality.

The idea that women's sexuality is more complex than men's is not some sort of extreme Red Pill idea. Many women on TAM have posted about differences in women's sexuality (responsive vs spontaneous desire; needing a feeling of safety; the need to feel emotionally connected; seduction beginning in the morning; difficulty focusing; on and on), unfortunately they never seem to join in these discussions when you, FW, always alone, et al start talking about how there's no difference between male and female sexuality.

Just given the differing levels of testosterone, it would be shocking if men and women's sexuality was the same.

Where's the female Viagra? Read anything about efforts to develop one and you'll hear people talking about how women's sexuality is so much more complex than men's.

Here's a liberal psychologist explaining why she doesn't give gender neutral advice:

Why Gender-Neutral Advice Isn't Always Useful | The Huffington Post


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am both of those guys, and I am fairly sure I have never met @Faithful Wife or @wild jade .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't believe you! you are probably a sex god holding back your potential for your own enjoyment. You mentioned on your thread you had sex with 10 women! That's 8 (and a half) more than me, you Casanova (The one half I don't even want to count because it was with a girl I didn't particularly like and it didn't really 'work'. If it was you, you'd probably be ashamed for rest of your life for this pathetic 'performance'. And I should have been). 

Try to enjoy and appreciate what you have. Some people fall asleep alone every night or have no one to talk to at all. Maybe one day your outlook will change (and your wife's too!.) I hope so anyway.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

I'd say that the analogy to the height difference comment is spot on. 

We have tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of generations (as hunter gatherers) during which the food supply - was frequently uncertain. The cost of childbearing is completely different during a food shortage. If mama mated with a 'quality partner', two things were true:
- He did the basic 'protection 101 stuff' AND 
- He made an effort to ensure she had enough to eat PLUS ONE. 

Six point four percent - that's the fraction of our incomes we spend on food in the USA. 

All this to say - having sex - whole different risk profile for a woman. For a whole lot of totally valid reasons. 

And it grates on my sensibilities when survival oriented behavior is casually commingled with status climbing (gold digging) behavior as the two activities are entirely different. 













Buddy400 said:


> There are, by definition, significant exceptions to any generalization. You're an exception, @Faithful Wife is an exception and so are my wife and I. It is generally true that men are stronger than women. However, knowing this, it would be a significant mistake to assume than any specific man is stronger than any specific woman. One could decide that, since generalizations are not true for every member of a group, no advice can be given without complete knowledge of the individual and their circumstances. That may be a valid point of view but it would make advice sites like TAM worthless.
> 
> Do doubt men's sexuality is influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, etc. But they aren't the same hormones, the same psychology or the same biology. The least likely result would be if, given those differences, both genders ended up with exactly the same drivers of their sexuality.
> 
> ...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I didn't say that women are more complex and less self-aware than men.
> 
> I said that women's sexuality (as a rule) is more complex than men's sexuality (as a rule).
> 
> ...


I try not to conflate my sexuality with my sex drive. 

One is very complex, the other is very simple. 

The fact that I can separate the two . . . might be because I'm a girl


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Buddy,
> 
> I'd say that the analogy to the height difference comment is spot on.


From my link, this is what motivates me to push back on the "both genders are the same" meme :

_"While tearing down stereotypes is important to me, I do not think this should be done solely via dismissing or even minimizing innate differences."

"So, overall, I want all partners to learn about and accept each others’ unique traits, whether biologically based or socially influenced or (as is likely with most things) both. *But refusing to acknowledge the impact of biology and innate gender differences on behavior within relationships seems to me to be unnecessarily shooting couples in the foot*; why not discuss something that would likely resonate with them and would help them understand the evolutionary and biological explanations for each partner’s behavior?"_

Sometimes being politically correct can interfere with solving problems.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> From my link, this is what motivates me to push back on the "both genders are the same" meme :
> 
> _"While tearing down stereotypes is important to me, I do not think this should be done solely via dismissing or even minimizing innate differences."
> 
> ...


Sigh....

You can try to put words in my mouth all you want, but you can't make it true that I said those words or ever meant anything like them.

Just because I disagree with the tired old "men are simple and women don't know what they want" when stated as a generality, doesn't mean I am saying "men and women are exactly the same". What I have always said and will continue to say is that men and women can both be complex or simple, that each PERSON is unique and has their own needs, preferences and desires. This does not imply that there is no difference between the sexes and their sexuality and their hormonal profiles. Yes, there are LOTS of differences....evidenced by our different bodies and hormonal profiles. You have an outie, we have an innie. That difference alone is self evident, and outies and innie react, perform, and respond differently than each other. Yet each man is not the same, the generalities that many of you guys believe are wide spread are not as wide spread as you think, which many MANY of us women are trying to tell you, along with our direct experiences and other information as evidence. 

In fact, I love it that men are more complex than you would usually claim they are. I love knowing each different man I've been with and what HE needs and wants. It would be boring if they were all the same, as you insinuate most men are. I want a man who has some individuality in his sexuality, and LO AND BEHOLD....every single man I've ever been with DOES have individuality in his sexuality. It is like a maze or a puzzle (a fun one!) to figure a guy out.

Lord help me if all men really were the same and wanted the same thing and reacted always the same way....I'd be bored to hell.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> @Faithful Wife @wild jade
> 
> The bolded above is how I feel, too. I know that the situation I'm in has something to do with me as well. It's not just my wife.
> 
> ...



alexm, I'm very sorry if I gave you the impression that I was saying that you are stupid or not listening to your wife. Nothing could be further from the truth. You seem like a genuinely good person doing his best to make sense of things.. 

I was just responding to a particular type of advice that I've seen given often here on TAM, and that strikes me as both incorrect and completely unhelpful. Counter-productive even.

As for your wife? Obviously I can't know, and it may very well be that she is incredibly unselfaware or so complex as to be unknowable. But, as I've suggested earlier in this thread, I also think she's told you exactly who she is, and you know it, and started your OP with it, but at the same time, your wishful thinking is getting the better of you, and you want the truth to be different than it is.

It's possible that there's some secret buried treasure that if only you had the map, you could find it. But tbh, I think you know deep down that you've already found what treasure there is, and there really just isn't any more. 

Is that a bad thing? Sure we all dream of having it all, but it also sounds like things are mostly pretty good for you.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> T
> 
> Do doubt men's sexuality is influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, etc. But they aren't the same hormones, the same psychology or the same biology. The least likely result would be if, given those differences, both genders ended up with exactly the same drivers of their sexuality.


Yes, women and men are different. We are also the same in many ways. Biologically and psychologically speaking we are much more similar than different. 

And my point wasn't at all about equality, nor was it about being gender neutral. It was simply to point out that men aren't "simple" and easy to figure out. Yes, the hormone that rules their behavior is typically testosterone, not estrogen, but they are still ruled by those hormones. Oh, wait, except they are not. Some men will hump anything in sight, and some men are extremely selective and really don't want to be humping for the sake of humping. Some men find casual sex empty, meaningless, unfulfilling, and some men find monogamy stifling and to be avoided at all costs. Tell me how is this different from some women wanting emotional connection, while others are okay with casual sex?

Or if you want to talk about difficulty focusing. My husband has ED and it takes him a very, very long time to orgasm. He gets close, and guess what? Loses focus. You do know that ED is a very, very common problem with men, don't you? And it has a number of causes, including biological and psychological. 

You seem to want reduce male sexuality to nothing more than blood flow to the penis and ejaculation. But it is ever so much more complicated than that. And even that's not as simple as you might think. 

This has nothing to do with being "politically correct", so I don't know where you get that from. It's just about making generalizations that are false and unhelpful. Certainly when it comes saying something like "men are simple and women are complex" we are infinitely more similar than you think. Perhaps if you were giving more specific advice, the gender differences would matter more. :wink2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sigh....
> 
> You can try to put words in my mouth all you want, but you can't make it true that I said those words or ever meant anything like them.
> 
> ...



Yes, it's like the one with 12 pieces I do with my son while the woman's sexuality is the puzzle with 5000 pieces 
(Disclaimer: not all women. Some are like one piece of puzzle that doesn't seem to fit anywhere )

Ok so here's a big difference in sexuality between men and women: my wife always feels bouts of energy after sex. Just now she had a massive urge to go and hang up laundry or do something active. While I feel like I have been exposed to kryptonite and can't move. Almost every time is the same. She tells me it's an excuse so I don't need to help her hang it up...It's difficult to relate to someone else's state of mind I suppose.
We are all 'autistic' on some level (disclaimer: oh I can't be ****ed with these disclaimers anymore).




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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm one of those women who has no idea what I want (in bed - that's the only place strangely enough!). It's frustrating. 

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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> In fact, I love it that men are more complex than you would usually claim they are. I love knowing each different man I've been with and what HE needs and wants. It would be boring if they were all the same, as you insinuate most men are. I want a man who has some individuality in his sexuality, and LO AND BEHOLD....every single man I've ever been with DOES have individuality in his sexuality. It is like a maze or a puzzle (a fun one!) to figure a guy out.
> 
> Lord help me if all men really were the same and wanted the same thing and reacted always the same way....I'd be bored to hell.


Totally agree! Anyone who thinks men are simple just hasn't spent enough time dating them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

My mum always taught me that I should find a woman who knows how to cater to men's 'complexities'. She used to say that men generally require 3 things regularly to be happy: food, sex and...can't remember the third one as I used to fall asleep with my milk bottle.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what @Hope1964 is thinking when she was posting on this thread. 

And all the other women on TAM with pretty much the same story as her.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Totally agree! Anyone who thinks men are simple just hasn't spent enough time dating them.


This made me reflect upon how different my experience with and attitudes towards sex and sexuality are now, 25 plus years into my relationships with my husband, than they were in the first five or ten years, before we married and had kids. 

Like apples and oranges, really. 

I think if I was dating again, what I'd want and desire in a sexual relationship would not be what I now want and desire from this man who I've weathered storms with, the man who is the father of my three children, the man who has driven me crazy, been my rock, stood my me, and who I've both believed is the worst thing to happen to me, and the best thing to happen to me, depending on circumstances and how well we were doing as a couple. 

In short, I've shared a lifetime with him, and that makes a difference in our sex lives. 

If I was dating, "testing the waters" with a man, starting a new relationship or newly committed? Not even in the same category, and not suitable for all the same advice. Long term sexual relationships have unique qualities and considerations, I think.

I have zero tolerance for complicated men these days. And I make no apologies for my complexities. Double standard? Yes, and there are many others that we both have wisely learned to accept--and even appreciate for the way they heighten the eroticism between us.

Twenty years ago? Yeah I fought tooth and nail against that stuff. Now I'm like, "man up" and he's like, "over my knee, *****." There's nothing like being objectified by a man you can trust to do it right!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> This made me reflect upon how different my experience with and attitudes towards sex and sexuality are now, 25 plus years into my relationships with my husband, than they were in the first five or ten years, before we married and had kids.
> 
> Like apples and oranges, really.
> 
> ...



Not sure I understand the bolded: you are still looking for partners? (I'm sure I misunderstood).

Do you mean that if you were single now and were looking for a partner now, it would be someone quite opposite of your current partner? Or do you mean your partner has changed? Or your view of him?

This is a bit revelatory. Should it be like this? When I think about a 'suitable substitute' for my wife there's just no other type I can think of. Nor can I place her into any particular category who's is strange. I usually 'pigeon hole' certain personalities all the time (often unintentionally). It is possible that I idolise her a bit. Sometimes people tell me how they see her (e.g. Always confident in what she wants, and how she plans everything in her life - almost to the point of sounding like she is manipulative), I always feel they are talking about somebody else as it completely doesn't seem to resonate.

I wonder if we are able to see our partners 'objectively' at all?




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> This made me reflect upon how different my experience with and attitudes towards sex and sexuality are now, 25 plus years into my relationships with my husband, than they were in the first five or ten years, before we married and had kids.
> 
> Like apples and oranges, really.
> 
> ...




Btw the objectifying stuff: do you mind explaining why you enjoy it?
My wife seems to love it (and I always felt quite natural with it but afterwards I lie in bed wondering if it's maybe a form of personality disorder or maybe something happened in her life that she's not telling me about. Because she's so different in real life, outside of sex. Obviously I would never tell her these things because I don't want to make her uncomfortable about it or to kill the golden goose as they say .
She says she does it because it turns me on. But I think she's saying it because she's a bit ashamed about how much she enjoys it herself. 
And I do enjoy it too but a lot of it is because I get such strong feed back (she seems to get strongest orgasms from being objectified, sometimes pretty rough ). I can also play sub sometimes but not for very long. While I don't think she can be dom at all. I dunno.
'Romantic sex' rarely did anything at all for her in any case...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> If I was dating, "testing the waters" with a man, starting a new relationship or newly committed? Not even in the same category, and not suitable for all the same advice. Long term sexual relationships have unique qualities and considerations, I think.
> 
> I have zero tolerance for complicated men these days. And I make no apologies for my complexities. Double standard? Yes, and there are many others that we both have wisely learned to accept--and even appreciate for the way they heighten the eroticism between us.
> 
> Twenty years ago? Yeah I fought tooth and nail against that stuff. Now I'm like, "man up" and he's like, "over my knee, *****." There's nothing like being objectified by a man you can trust to do it right!


Can you get away from complexity? I don't think so, not if you actually want to know someone intimately. Maybe just for casual sex or FWB. Or if you're done with LTR intimacy, and they are just fulfilling a role for you ......

But even then, people are human and aren't too good at one-dimensional roles -- at least not over the long term. Thet's my experience, at any rate.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Not sure I understand the bolded: you are still looking for partners? (I'm sure I misunderstood).
> 
> Do you mean that if you were single now and were looking for a partner now, it would be someone quite opposite of your current partner? Or do you mean your partner has changed? Or your view of him?
> 
> ...


No, I'm not looking for a partner, but if I did, I think I'd focus on a man who was less complex than I am sexually. My husband is like that (he's not complex to me)--he's higher drive and very good in bed and tends to prefer to take the reigns. He's more dominant sexually, I'm very submissive sexually. He's also slows a lot of interest in my sexuality, and in understanding it, even the parts of it that I struggle with. I like that. 

Maybe it's because he's not sexually complex that I prefer that type of man, and would look for something similar if ever I found myself looking again. But then again, what does "sexually complex" really mean? I'm sure my husband would seem complex to others. It could be that we are just highly sexually compatible and that's what makes it seem to me that he's not complex. 

As for objectivity in long term relationships . . . I have often wondered the same thing. At some point the deep intimacy and the life we've built together sort of merged us, and sometimes I have trouble telling where my wants and needs end and his begin, and vise versa. Sometimes I feel like when I argue with him, I'm just arguing with myself. It can be a disconcerting feeling to know that your identity is so tangled with that of another, but it's also testament to deep commitment and love, I think. Beautiful and complex. 



inmyprime said:


> Btw the objectifying stuff: do you mind explaining why you enjoy it?
> My wife seems to love it (and I always felt quite natural with it but afterwards I lie in bed wondering if it's maybe a form of personality disorder or maybe something happened in her life that she's not telling me about. Because she's so different in real life, outside of sex. Obviously I would never tell her these things because I don't want to make her uncomfortable about it or to kill the golden goose as they say .
> She says she does it because it turns me on. But I think she's saying it because she's a bit ashamed about how much she enjoys it herself.
> And I do enjoy it too but a lot of it is because I get such strong feed back (she seems to get strongest orgasms from being objectified, sometimes pretty rough ). I can also play sub sometimes but not for very long. While I don't think she can be dom at all. I dunno.
> 'Romantic sex' rarely did anything at all for her in any case...


The short version is that power and control are highly eroticized for me, and I prefer sex/sexual fantasy in which those things feature quite . . . eh, dramatically. I'm someone with who keeps/needs a high level of control in my everyday life (emotionally and environmentally), and it can become exhausting and overwhelming. I've had issues with intense anxiety around my need for control. I do use CBT and mindfulness to work on that, but my head just never turns off.I need to let go, I need to be MADE to let go. I need my head to be quiet sometimes, I need to have it all erased so I can re-set. I crave that deeply. It's got nothing to do with past trauma; it's just my makeup. I'm an intense person. 

The sensual stuff, the romantic stuff--as far as sex goes, it's not what floats my boat. I know my husband loves me and that we have a very deeply intimate bond; I don't need that to be reinforced during sex. He shows me that every day just by being who he is, and by treating me the way he treats me. 

Yeah, sometimes getting what I want and crave can cause waves of intense emotion after the fact. I wouldn't call it shame . . . but somethings being "like this" can be, I don't know . . . embarrassing maybe? Maybe because having the control wrenched from me, while a huge relief, is also so unlike how I usually am that the contrast feels jarring? I worry that my husband, upon witnessing me losing control, will find me unattractive? He always assures me it's just the opposite, but sometimes afterwards I just want to hide my face and crawl under the bed, lol. 

The objectification stuff I was talking about, though, has more to do with stereotypical gender roles. I tend to eroticize those, too, because they are often about power (man has it, woman does not) and that makes me feel . . . turned on and safe? But ONLY in my relationship with my husband. We've spent a lot of time talking about the psycho-sexual make up of women and men, and how it can be exploited to keep sex highly erotic over the long term.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> No, I'm not looking for a partner, but if I did, I think I'd focus on a man who was less complex than I am sexually. My husband is like that (he's not complex to me)--he's higher drive and very good in bed and tends to prefer to take the reigns. He's more dominant sexually, I'm very submissive sexually. He's also slows a lot of interest in my sexuality, and in understanding it, even the parts of it that I struggle with. I like that.
> 
> Maybe it's because he's not sexually complex that I prefer that type of man, and would look for something similar if ever I found myself looking again. *But then again, what does "sexually complex" really mean? * I'm sure my husband would seem complex to others. It could be that we are just highly sexually compatible and that's what makes it seem to me that he's not complex.


Good question! 

Just a thought. A person becomes "complex" once you try to figure them out. Because you are the one in your relationship that both you and your husband are trying to figure out and please, you are the "complex" one. As long as no one is actually trying to figure out your husband, he is "simple". 

That's the way it is in my relationship. I'm "simple" because there is no figuring out to do. What you see is what you get. My husband, however, is "complex" because he's the one getting all the attention and figuring out. 

To my mind, there isn't anything particularly complex about a woman wanting to be submissive in bed. Isn't it just as simple as the man wanting to be dominant? 

Sorry, not sure if I have a point .... just thinking aloud and rambling .....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Good question!
> 
> Just a thought. A person becomes "complex" once you try to figure them out. Because you are the one in your relationship that both you and your husband are trying to figure out and please, you are the "complex" one. As long as no one is actually trying to figure out your husband, he is "simple".
> 
> ...



Ha! Maybe this is the first example that truly has no beginning and is an infinite loop: my wife enjoys me being dominant because she thinks it turns me on and I enjoy being dominant because I think it turns her on. It's a situation!
Maybe we'll figure out the origin of life and/or universe next!



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> .



Does meditation help? I have the same problem (not being able to switch off all these voices in my head or my head in general).



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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Does meditation help? I have the same problem (not being able to switch off all these voices in my head or my head in general).


It can help, but for me being topped (in a BDSM sense) works the best and manipulates my blood chemistry in a favorable way. That's not always an option, and I do have to be careful that it doesn't become the ONLY way I can cope (yes, manipulating endorphins and adrenaline can become addictive) so that leaves the cognitive and dialectal behavior therapy, meditation, intense workouts, etc. I got a whole tool box!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Good question!
> 
> Just a thought. A person becomes "complex" once you try to figure them out. Because you are the one in your relationship that both you and your husband are trying to figure out and please, you are the "complex" one. As long as no one is actually trying to figure out your husband, he is "simple".
> 
> ...


I think my husband is complex in ways I'm not. As far as sexuality goes, though, I'm the one with more ins and outs, so to speak. 

Being a submissive in bed can be very simple . . . or it can be incredibly complicated. "Submissive" and "Dominant" are just general labels to get the conversation started. Power relations (in the bedroom and out), are fascinating and complicated and very fraught for a lot of people to talk about and to self-reflect on. But for me, that is the key to being a highly sexual person, which was missing for many years in our marriage. Coming to understand it in myself, then trusting my husband enough to share it with him was key to our reconciliation. I think a lot of people are more comfortable not looking under that particular rock.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Ha! Maybe this is the first example that truly has no beginning and is an infinite loop: my wife enjoys me being dominant because she thinks it turns me on and I enjoy being dominant because I think it turns her on. It's a situation!
> Maybe we'll figure out the origin of life and/or universe next!
> 
> 
> ...


As long as everyone is happy with their omelettes, well, who cares which came first. Just hooray!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think my husband is complex in ways I'm not. As far as sexuality goes, though, I'm the one with more ins and outs, so to speak.
> 
> Being a submissive in bed can be very simple . . . or it can be incredibly complicated. "Submissive" and "Dominant" are just general labels to get the conversation started. Power relations (in the bedroom and out), are fascinating and complicated and very fraught for a lot of people to talk about and to self-reflect on. But for me, that is the key to being a highly sexual person, which was missing for many years in our marriage. Coming to understand it in myself, then trusting my husband enough to share it with him was key to our reconciliation. I think a lot of people are more comfortable not looking under that particular rock.


Or coming up with a different solution to what's under that rock. If my husband decided he wanted to start spanking me, for example, I would start wondering about what FOO or early traumatic issues made him see it as erotic to go all "daddy" on me. It would be, IOW, a signal of his complexity, not his simplicity. 

Of course, I am the exact opposite of how you describe yourself, and am much more of a go with the flow kind of person, with no real compunction to control things, and no related craving to relinquish that control. And as a non-issue, it doesn't really figure into my sexuality or erotic ideals either.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Or coming up with a different solution to what's under that rock. If my husband decided he wanted to start spanking me, for example, I would start wondering about what FOO or early traumatic issues made him see it as erotic to go all "daddy" on me. It would be, IOW, a signal of his complexity, not his simplicity.



That's interesting. I think I find trends towards physical dominance in a man pretty natural, so I'm not sure I'd question it as something that had a pathological or experience-related origin, unless, of course, there was some obvious and compelling evidence that led me there. Also, since it turns me on to be physically dominated, I think I'd be even less apt to see it as complex or as something I'd want or need to understand in my partner. 

My husband was interested in understanding my sexuality in more depth because of safety and issues around consent--not because he thought it was wrong or unhealthy to be this way, or because he had suspicions that my predilections had any origins in past trauma, etc. I'm not saying it's not a valid line of inquiry, just that it's never drawn our attention much. 



wild jade said:


> Of course, I am the exact opposite of how you describe yourself, and am much more of a go with the flow kind of person, with no real compunction to control things, and no related craving to relinquish that control. And as a non-issue, it doesn't really figure into my sexuality or erotic ideals either.


Yeah, it's not always fun to be like this. I'm happiest when my control issues are . . . under control.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> That's interesting. I think I find trends towards physical dominance in a man pretty natural, so I'm not sure I'd question it as something that had a pathological or experience-related origin, unless, of course, there was some obvious and compelling evidence that led me there. Also, since it turns me on to be physically dominated, I think I'd be even less apt to see it as complex or as something I'd want or need to understand in my partner.
> 
> My husband was interested in understanding my sexuality in more depth because of safety and issues around consent--not because he thought it was wrong or unhealthy to be this way, or because he had suspicions that my predilections had any origins in past trauma, etc. I'm not saying it's not a valid line of inquiry, just that it's never drawn our attention much.
> 
> ...


But but but. Letting yourself get 'out of control', in a controlled way, is also a form of control. Is it not?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But but but. Letting yourself get 'out of control', in a controlled way, is also a form of control. Is it not?


It would be if I got to control it, but ideally, I don't.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yeah, it's not always fun to be like this. I'm happiest when my control issues are . . . under control.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I think it may be more of a quesiton of Hd and LD rather than male / female, although gender correlates but does not determine those roles.

HD sexuality tends to be less complex. HD wants sex. The HD knows they want sex. The HD tends to care alot about getting some sex and not as much about why they want sex.
LD sexuality tends to be more complex. LD may or may not want sex, depending on a shorter or longer list of factors that may or may not vary by the hour, day, week, month and year. The LD may or may not know whether they want sex or why they don't want sex when they don't. They may or may not care to learn why they don't want sex.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

kag123 said:


> I'm one of those women who has no idea what I want (in bed - that's the only place strangely enough!). It's frustrating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I would definitely recommend a nice heating pad, has done wonders for my lower back while laying in bed :grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think it may be more of a quesiton of Hd and LD rather than male / female, although gender correlates but does not determine those roles.
> 
> HD sexuality tends to be less complex. HD wants sex. The HD knows they want sex. The HD tends not to care alot about getting some sex and not as much about why they want sex.
> LD sexuality tends to be more complex. LD may or may not want sex, depending on a shorter or longer list of factors that may or may not vary by the hour, day, week, month and year. The LD may or may not know whether they want sex or why they don't want sex when they don't. They may or may not care to learn why they don't want sex.


Maybe the question though, on a general basis, does the biological difference between men and women put women at a higher risk of being LD (or maybe better put, LD compared to their male counterpart)? IIRC, a while ago @Buddy400 had started a similar thread about the idea (can't recall specifics off the top of my head, but had to do with being in long term relationships, etc...)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Don't shoot the messenger! :yawn2:

_Do men really have stronger sex drives than women?

Well, yes, they do. Study after study shows that men's sex drives are not only stronger than women's, *but much more straightforward.* The sources of women's libidos, by contrast, are much harder to pin down._

Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

_3. Women's sexual turn-ons are more complicated than men's.

What turns women on? *Not even women always seem to know.* Northwestern University researcher Meredith Chivers and colleagues showed erotic films to gay and straight men and women. They asked them about their level of sexual arousal, and also measured their actual level of arousal *through devices attached to their genitals.*

For men, the results were predictable: Straight men said they were more turned on by depictions of male-female sex and female-female sex, and the measuring devices backed up their claims. Gay men said they were turned on by male-male sex, and again the devices backed them up. For women, the results were more surprising. Straight women, for example, said they were more turned on by male-female sex. But genitally they showed about the same reaction to male-female, male-male, and female-female sex.

"Men are very rigid and specific about who they become aroused by, who they want to have sex with, who they fall in love with," says J. Michael Bailey. He is a Northwestern University sex researcher and co-author with Chivers on the study._

Where can I sign up for this 'study' to electrocute my genitals? :nerd:


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think it may be more of a quesiton of Hd and LD rather than male / female, although gender correlates but does not determine those roles.
> 
> HD sexuality tends to be less complex. HD wants sex. The HD knows they want sex. The HD tends not to care alot about getting some sex and not as much about why they want sex.
> LD sexuality tends to be more complex. LD may or may not want sex, depending on a shorter or longer list of factors that may or may not vary by the hour, day, week, month and year. The LD may or may not know whether they want sex or why they don't want sex when they don't. They may or may not care to learn why they don't want sex.


If it were that simple, we wouldn't have all these threads with people upset that their spouse is using porn, romance novels or vibrators instead of wanting actual sex.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> _3. Women's sexual turn-ons are more complicated than men's.
> 
> What turns women on? *Not even women always seem to know.* Northwestern University researcher Meredith Chivers and colleagues showed erotic films to gay and straight men and women. They asked them about their level of sexual arousal, and also measured their actual level of arousal *through devices attached to their genitals.*
> 
> ...


Don't forget that there is what you feel. And then there is what you will admit you feel. 

There's a recent book that talks a lot about this, and the fact that because men are rewarded for it, they tend to over-report their sexual desire and activities, but since women are shamed for it, they tend to under-report. 

It's also kind of interesting, don't you think, that a finding that men are more "rigid" sexually used to conclude that women don't know what turns them on? Instead of, say, noticing that women are more easily turned on?

ETA - Here's a link to that book I mentioned. http://danielbergner.com/what-do-women-want/


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

wild jade said:


> If it were that simple, we wouldn't have all these threads with people upset that their spouse is using porn, romance novels or vibrators instead of wanting actual sex.


If they are wanting those things instead of sex, then the one complaining is the HD and the one using the other things is the LD, and the ones using have the complex sexuality and my point stands.

If they are wanting those things because their partner is unavailable for sex, but the LD is complaining that the HD is using those things "because it is wrong", that is different. There is a difference between not wanting sex and not wanting to wait for / be controlled by your partner's desire for sex. I don't think using porn or vibrators when your partner is generally unavailable for sex is a sign of complex sexuality. I think it is a sign of being a typical horny HD.

But I agree with you that there are some cases where the HD has a willing LD partner, but the HD refuses to have sex and turns to porn or vibrators (or both) instead. Yes, there is such a thing as complex HD sexuality. But that does not mean my point isn't generally valid.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> If they are wanting those things instead of sex, then the one complaining is the HD and the one using the other things is the LD, and the ones using have the complex sexuality and my point stands.


Why would you conclude this? What is about stealing off and masturbating instead of actually having sex says LD to you? 

:scratchhead:

And why would assume that the person complaining about it is HD?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Don't forget that there is what you feel. And then there is what you will admit you feel.
> 
> There's a recent book that talks a lot about this, and the fact that because men are rewarded for it, they tend to over-report their sexual desire and activities, but since women are shamed for it, they tend to under-report.
> 
> ...



So you're hand-waving away a scientific study with the supposition that the women DID know what turned them on and just lied to the researchers about it because of social pressure? 

In the NYT review of "What Women Want" they say "No one here is claiming that women’s experience of desire, arousal and orgasm is exactly like men’s."

Is it just that you assume that anytime someone says that women and men's sexuality are different; that's a coded way of saying that women don't like sex.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I think anyone who insists that men and women aren't different, generally speaking, with respect to sex and sexuality, or that men aren't generally less complicated, is being a typical woman and trying to make things FAR more complicated than they actually are


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> So you're hand-waving away a scientific study with the supposition that the women DID know what turned them on and just lied to the researchers about it because of social pressure?
> 
> In the NYT review of "What Women Want" they say "No one here is claiming that women’s experience of desire, arousal and orgasm is exactly like men’s."
> 
> Is it just that you assume that anytime someone says that women and men's sexuality are different; that's a coded way of saying that women don't like sex.


LOL, Buddy. Who said that women's sexuality was exactly like men's? Not me. Not anyone. 

In fact the scientific study you are referring to, one difference is clear. Men are much more rigid and women are much more fluid. 

So tell me, are you going to handwave at a thorough analysis of a whole pile of scientific studies because they challenge some of the myths you hold most dear?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@Hope1964 Ya, for a long time science proved that men were much smarter than women. And there was tons of evidence to prove this scientific fact that everyone knew. Including the fact that there were more men in schools and they got much higher grades, more successful positions, differences in the brain. You name it!

Of course those who challenged this view were just being typical women, emotionally driven, illogical creatures that can't grasp science.

@alexm, so sorry for the thread-jacking. I'll shut up now. Promise!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

@alexm: So, how was the weekend? Are you still feeling that the trend is positive?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GettingIt_2 said:


> @alexm: So, how was the weekend? Are you still feeling that the trend is positive?


 @wild jade - not thread jacking, s'okay!

Same old, same old this weekend, but I didn't mind. I wasn't overly enthusiastic (but not UNenthusiastic, either), but she was.

Same 'initiation' style - hopped into bed naked. So I didn't screw around or wait this time, just straight to oral on her (well, not that direct, lots of kissing around her thighs and other areas to get her warmed up first. I know better!). Within 20 seconds of getting to her clit, she came. My turn for a couple of minutes, then to PIV, where she came again. Pretty straight forward stuff.

Then she rolled over and grabbed her book and read for 20 minutes.

No complaints.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Sounds like a functioning relationship to me  
You mention on another thread that sex is not really a need for your wife. Do you know how long it would take her until she misses it? I wondered that about my wife but never really knew (or had the balls) to find out. Well the balls were the problem.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

wild jade said:


> @Hope1964 Ya, for a long time science proved that men were much smarter than women. And there was tons of evidence to prove this scientific fact that everyone knew. Including the fact that there were more men in schools and they got much higher grades, more successful positions, differences in the brain. You name it!
> 
> Of course those who challenged this view were just being typical women, emotionally driven, illogical creatures that can't grasp science.!


I never said anything about science. I don't believe statistics prove squat. I said what my OPINION is.

You can argue all you want, you won't change my opinion, sorry! Men and women are different, and there are many many things that can be said about them GENERALLY because of those differences. I'm certainly not arguing that that means ALL men or ALL women are a certain way. I just think it's ridiculous to dismiss the gender based differences simply because they're gender based, and I think they're often a useful starting point for solving problems.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> LOL, Buddy. Who said that women's sexuality was exactly like men's? Not me. Not anyone.
> 
> In fact the scientific study you are referring to, one difference is clear. Men are much more rigid and women are much more fluid.
> 
> So tell me, are you going to handwave at a thorough analysis of a whole pile of scientific studies because they challenge some of the myths you hold most dear?


It's always good to know that the person you're debating with is giving the your points serious consideration (I'm guessing that's what 'LOL' means, since every reply of yours to me seems to start out with that).

What myths do you suppose that I hold dear?

I've said that women sometimes don't know how their own sexuality works (supported by @inmyprime's reference) and that women's sexuality is (generally) more complex that that of men.

I suspect that you'll respond with some personal anecdotes, but the plural of anecdote is not data.

Any studies you know of suggesting that women know more (or the same) about how their sexuality works than men? Or that women's sexuality is simpler (or the same) as men's?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I don't really understand why studies are often completely dismissed out of hand. I get that they are not 'holy scriptures' and shouldn't be treated as such. But it's a good idea to treat them at least for what they are which is imperfect, but certainly better than personal anecdotes.
It's not a black & white thing once again but with some shades of grey (less than 50 

I do totally sympathise and agree there are always exceptions and if you feel you don't fit any of these criteria, I completely understand why you would feel this way about those studies. That doesn't make them completely useless though.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> It's always good to know that the person you're debating with is giving the your points serious consideration (I'm guessing that's what 'LOL' means, since every reply of yours to me seems to start out with that).
> 
> What myths do you suppose that I hold dear?
> 
> ...


I posted a whole book reviewing the scientific literature on the topic. Which concludes, btw, that there's a lot of myths about women's sexuality, particularly some of the "truisms" slung around TAM about the way we are wired.

Do you actually want to explore the scientific literature? Or do you just want to reinforce your preexisting biases?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Sounds like a functioning relationship to me
> You mention on another thread that sex is not really a need for your wife. Do you know how long it would take her until she misses it? I wondered that about my wife but never really knew (or had the balls) to find out. Well the balls were the problem.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No doubt it functions, yes, but the whole purpose of this exercise is to try and veer it back to a course that it functions in a way that we both are comfortable with.

As is always the case when dealing with one partner who is LD (or rather, very far off the other persons own desire level), the relationship ends up working the way _they_ want it to. It becomes 'lowest common denominator', rather than something equal.

I'm not trying to have more sex, or better sex, I'm just trying to get to a place where it's mutual, and not on only one persons terms.

I genuinely think she could go, probably, forever. Possibly an exaggeration, but I'm not so sure! Like you, I don't want to find out.

In any case, no aspect of our sex life is up to me - that's the issue (and a common one, unfortunately).


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> No doubt it functions, yes, but the whole purpose of this exercise is to try and veer it back to a course that it functions in a way that we both are comfortable with.
> 
> As is always the case when dealing with one partner who is LD (or rather, very far off the other persons own desire level), the relationship ends up working the way _they_ want it to. It becomes 'lowest common denominator', rather than something equal.
> 
> ...


What I noticed in your description above was that it was all about her, details about what you did for her, how many times she came because of it, what she did when you'd finished. You presented as a bit player in your own porno. 

What was it like for you? Did she do anything nice to make you feel extra good? Was the orgasm intense? Or meh?

I'm not asking, btw, for the actual details, or a second installation of the story. Just to point out that this might be a place for you to think about making it more about you.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> What I noticed in your description above was that it was all about her, details about what you did for her, how many times she came because of it, what she did when you'd finished. You presented as a bit player in your own porno.
> 
> What was it like for you? Did she do anything nice to make you feel extra good? Was the orgasm intense? Or meh?
> 
> I'm not asking, btw, for the actual details, or a second installation of the story. Just to point out that this might be a place for you to think about making it more about you.


The sex is mutual, and always has been. I just wasn't that into it, I guess, but I really don't think I showed that, either. She always takes care of me, I always take care of her.

Physically it was good for me, no complaints. If it's ever not good, from a physical standpoint, it's not for her lack of effort, it's just me being tired or whatever.

Look, I never have any complaints about her effort level in regards to the actual sex. I don't think she does, either. Physically we're very compatible. Some women have complaints that their partners spend 'too much' time on them, and they feel pressured as a result. I can't say that's the case here, as I really don't HAVE to spend a lot of time on her (she's very quick to O, and very capable of multiples). She also has no problem telling me when she wants to get to the grand finale (ie. PIV), should I have missed that cue and am a little too engaged in other things. But doesn't often have to. As well, she has no problem telling me to go harder or faster, etc etc etc.

All in all, physically it's almost always good to great. Never been any complaints about that.

But I'm not a 17 year old boy, where the physical sex is all that matters. I sometimes wonder if she doesn't get this aspect, that there's more to sex than just this, that she believes this is all it takes to make a man happy. Yes, I've told her it's not enough. I'm not sure if she thinks I'm an outlier as far as males go, or not.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> No doubt it functions, yes, but the whole purpose of this exercise is to try and veer it back to a course that it functions in a way that we both are comfortable with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know what you mean. I always assumed that's the natural set up between man and woman. 
Is it that bad?
I suppose you could always 'decline' and it wouldn't be on 'her terms'. But you don't want to do it (and I don't think you should).
I don't really see a problem with it especially if you don't need to increase frequency. Or if the sex isn't bad. Which it doesn't sound like it is.
Yes I also suspect that some women 'can go forever' without it without any damage.
From reading this site (and I kind of suspected it beforehand) that rejection/withholding sex from men actually has quite severe psychological and physiological consequences. Which makes me think that it should be addressed and dealt with it from that angle. That's what people mean that sex for men is a 'need', I guess. (It is also for some women but I would guess not the majority. For my wife it's more of a 'nice thing to do' which she enjoys very much when doing it but i don't think she will become an emotional wreck without it).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> No doubt it functions, yes, but the whole purpose of this exercise is to try and veer it back to a course that it functions in a way that we both are comfortable with.
> 
> *As is always the case when dealing with one partner who is LD (or rather, very far off the other persons own desire level), the relationship ends up working the way they want it to. It becomes 'lowest common denominator', rather than something equal.
> 
> ...


I do wonder, and would be interesting to know what your W thought or anyone else who is LD in the relationship, do they assume that every single time the HD wants to have sex it is b/c they are a raging ball of hormones (i.e. does your W think every time you try to initiate it is b/c she is the only option for you to get off)? I could think of plenty of times I initiated for reasons other then being horny. I guess my thinking here, if the LD assumes the HD is just a big bag of hormones, it makes it easier to use that as an excuse to put minimal effort in on the LDs part and as well can also foster the idea that the HD only wants you for sex (which further diminishes any effort put in by the LD). 

Not sure what all this gender sexuality talk is about. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that in general men and women are different, with things being more complicated on the female side. Having large quantities of Testosterone does go a long way lol.

Curious, @alexm , do you think your W's weekly naked routine will continue, or are you expecting that maybe the novelty/challenge will slowly wear off?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> But I'm not a 17 year old boy, where the physical sex is all that matters. I sometimes wonder if she doesn't get this aspect, *that there's more to sex than just this, that she believes this is all it takes to make a man happy*. Yes, I've told her it's not enough. I'm not sure if she thinks I'm an outlier as far as males go, or not.


To her, there is NOT "more to sex than this", and I don't think she's worried about what it takes to "make a man happy", she is just doing what feels natural to HER.

Yes she probably thinks you are an outlier. Since she doesn't emotionally connect through sex, she doesn't understand why anyone does. 

I had asked before (and had asked long before that too) if you ever checked into the thought that she may be on the spectrum. I don't think you answered, but from much of what you've written, I suspect she is. Many people on the spectrum have a hard time connecting emotionally, in general, and they tend to not understand the emotions of other people or what their emotional needs are. They can also tend to not be able to fulfill those emotional needs because they are not that capable of being extremely emotionally bonded anyway.

Your wife is not just giving you duty sex, IMO. She does understand that you need regular sex, and she is giving you that willingly and without complaint, at a level that feels right for her. She enjoys sex, she just doesn't need more than she is having and she doesn't connect through sexuality or flirting or touching (so she doesn't do them) or even sex, so you feel that disconnect, but she doesn't. She likes having sex with you and knows you want and need sex, so she does have regular sex with you, but it is not to bond with you, it is just to service both of your bodies. To HER, there is no more to it than that.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Speaking as someone who is very LD, yes, I always thought sex was only physical and that was its purpose. The idea of an emotional connection was foreign until I began reading TAM and still is something that's difficult for me to relate to. When I was married, sex was for a time scheduled to make sure it wasn't forgotten about. My husband really didn't like scheduling so we eventually stopped and we went back to non-scheduled sex. That made me feel less secure -- somewhat anxious, actually -- but it made him happier and that's what was important to me. 

Alex, your wife has found something that works well for her and she obviously doesn't want to change it. Unless the day arrives that she's willing to renegotiate the schedule -- or make it less predictable than its current pattern -- this is where you are. Unfortunately.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

alexm said:


> But I'm not a 17 year old boy, where the physical sex is all that matters. I sometimes wonder if she doesn't get this aspect, that there's more to sex than just this, that she believes this is all it takes to make a man happy. Yes, I've told her it's not enough. I'm not sure if she thinks I'm an outlier as far as males go, or not.


As someone who is very far on the LD side of the spectrum, to the point of not needing sex at all, I cannot wrap my mind around there being more than the physical sex. Yes, I've heard people speak of an emotional connection, but it is so foreign to me that I don't know what they're talking about. 

i feel emotional connection through other things. Never through sex, which to me is like eating a sandwich or using the WC or sneezing because you have a cold. Just a thing that our bodies do. When I was married, I never wondered if my husband was feeling an emotional connection during sex, because I assumed everybody was like me. I know better now.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My husband says stuff to me that I don't believe. Like if he calls me sexy, he sounds like he's just saying it cuz he knows he should. My ex used to call me sexy in a husky sexy voice that made me believe him. He was far more aggressive. But I enjoy sex, when we have it, far more with my current hubby than I did with my ex. There's way more emotional connection and it just feels better. Part of that could very well be me knowing my own body better than I did in my 20's too though. But my ex was a total taker in bed, whereas current hubby is a total giver. One extreme to another, and neither one satisfies me 100%. Typical female or what??


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

2020hindsight said:


> As someone who is very far on the LD side of the spectrum, to the point of not needing sex at all, I cannot wrap my mind around there being more than the physical sex. Yes, I've heard people speak of an emotional connection, but it is so foreign to me that I don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> i feel emotional connection through other things. Never through sex, which to me is like eating a sandwich or using the WC or sneezing because you have a cold. Just a thing that our bodies do. When I was married, I never wondered if my husband was feeling an emotional connection during sex, because I assumed everybody was like me. I know better now.


My wife also doesn't seem to associate sex with having an emotional connection. She does however seem to receive a high level of physical pleasure, up to the point of being on the verge of climaxing. She then seems to stop herself from going over the edge. Your description of eating a sandwich or sneezing gives me the impression that you also don't experience much physical pleasure out of sex. Is that the case?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> But my ex was a total taker in bed, whereas current hubby is a total giver. One extreme to another, and neither one satisfies me 100%. Typical female or what??


To be a giver after several years of marriage, I think it is very likely that your husband genuinely finds you attractive. 

To get him to implement more "taking", how about introduce that as one of your fantasies and ask him to role play? Start the evening by giving him a real slap across the face to show him that you mean business tonight.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> To be a giver after several years of marriage, I think it is very likely that your husband genuinely finds you attractive.
> 
> To get him to implement more "taking", how about introduce that as one of your fantasies and ask him to role play? Start the evening by giving him a real slap across the face to show him that you mean business tonight.


If I slapped him he'd just act like a wounded puppy. 

I think role playing with him would just end up being stilted. Granted I've never actually TRIED it, but just based on past experience when we've tried doing new things, in bed or outside the bedroom. Neither of us are actors at all.

I'm happy with where things have been going the last week or two. We had great sex on Sunday. Morning, but that's OK. And he was more tentative than the time before, but that's OK too. He was definitely NOT as freaking subtle as he has been!!


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

2020hindsight said:


> As someone who is very far on the LD side of the spectrum, to the point of not needing sex at all, I cannot wrap my mind around there being more than the physical sex. Yes, I've heard people speak of an emotional connection, but it is so foreign to me that I don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> i feel emotional connection through other things. Never through sex, which to me is like eating a sandwich or using the WC or sneezing because you have a cold. Just a thing that our bodies do. When I was married, I never wondered if my husband was feeling an emotional connection during sex, because I assumed everybody was like me. I know better now.


I wouldn't say I'm quite as far on the LD spectrum as you have described yourself to be - but I definitely relate, and I know I've posted it on these boards before. I just can't wrap my mind around emotional connection from sex. I can see it being a byproduct of an already strong emotional connection (which is what I would strongly desire) and I can see the flip side where it's just a physical act...which is what I think married sex is after those new relationship butterflies wear off. And yes - I do believe that husbands will go to their wives for sex because they can't get it anywhere else (without breaking the traditional marriage vows at least). 

This thought about men just wanting to get off was planted as a seed in my head as a teenager listening to "locker room talk" from the guys, and reinforced through the rest of my experiences until marriage. I was a relatively attractive young woman and found that wherever I went it was a game to be approached and for the guy to try to get you home. It's odd to then be married and have men tell you - no no that was all just manly talk, that was just boys being boys. We really do have feelings and we think sex is more than just banging some chick. 

It feels suspicious at first, a little like the feeling of wondering whether a guy who is approaching you is sincerely interested or just playing a game to see if he can conquer you. 

I don't think my husband plays games like that - but those years and years of experiences don't just melt away instantly. 

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I can't remember if I mentioned this here before, but one time after sex my W actually told me that she knew I loved her, just that I loved her more when we had sex. This is where there is a disconnect in how she perceives sex vs myself (similar to what some of the other posters here have stated, not being able to wrap their head around the sex/emotional connection concept). Hard to be emotionally connected to someone when your relationship more closely mirrors being roommates or really good friends vs a couple.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

kag123 said:


> It's odd to then be married and have men tell you - no no that was all just manly talk, that was just boys being boys. We really do have feelings and we think sex is more than just banging some chick.
> 
> It feels suspicious at first, a little like the feeling of wondering whether a guy who is approaching you is sincerely interested or just playing a game to see if he can conquer you.


Both are true. With a random woman, it is purely physical. With a woman that I love, there is an emotional connection.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

kag123 said:


> *I don't think my husband plays games like that - but those years and years of experiences don't just melt away instantly. *
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


True. 
@EllisRedding



> *I do wonder, and would be interesting to know what your W thought or anyone else who is LD in the relationship, do they assume that every single time the HD wants to have sex it is b/c they are a raging ball of hormones *(i.e. does your W think every time you try to initiate it is b/c she is the only option for you to get off)?


The bold part--absolutely. This is how "horny" feels to me. It's not like "I love my husband and I want to connect with him," it's usually awkward, full of pressure and yes, he is the option to get off in a satisfying manner. Horny feels like being squeezed. My husband is the best sex I've ever had, period and he relieves that being squeezed pressure better than anyone. Also, he doesn't mind my awkwardness when I get like that. Both are excellent reasons to have him be the only option to get off. 



> I could think of plenty of times I initiated for reasons other then being horny.


I've never had like angry sex, or sad sex or those kind of variations. I have two reasons: horny or "husband is getting cranky." What are the other reasons you have?


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Actually, I take that back. I've had extremely manipulative sex, but that wasn't a desire for sex but for something else. 

Which doesn't help me with the feeling of "being used," because if it isn't physical or to be nice, it's somewhat nefarious in my experience.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

FrenchFry said:


> I've never had like angry sex, or sad sex or those kind of variations. I have two reasons: horny or "husband is getting cranky." What are the other reasons you have?


I rarely ever get angry or sad, so none of those for me either. I do laugh a lot and am rather sarcastic, but don't think I have had funny/sarcastic sex either :grin2: 

Could be as simple as just wanting to be close to my W, being able to just focus on each other instead of all the other noise around us, etc... Could also just be as simple as "There isn't anything else to do and it feels good, so why the heck not." Could be a variety of reasons other then me just walking around at "full attention" :grin2:

When my W and I have sex, I feel more connected and closer to her. When we don't, or maybe a better way to put it, when we go periods without (which is more common), that connection/closeness fades. Granted, I am sure this will vary from person to person as what constitutes "periods without", but for me this usually varies from weeks to months without.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I can't remember if I mentioned this here before, but one time after sex my W actually told me that she knew I loved her, just that I loved her more when we had sex. This is where there is a disconnect in how she perceives sex vs myself (similar to what some of the other posters here have stated, not being able to wrap their head around the sex/emotional connection concept). Hard to be emotionally connected to someone when your relationship more closely mirrors being roommates or really good friends vs a couple.


YES. That is exactly what it seems like from my perspective. You love me more when we have sex. 

I don't know how to shake that feeling to be honest. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

> I've never had like angry sex, or sad sex or those kind of variations. I have two reasons: horny or "husband is getting cranky." What are the other reasons you have?


Yes, exactly! And unfortunately when you are LD, it's more of the "uh oh he's getting cranky" variety than the other type. 

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

kag123 said:


> YES. That is exactly what it seems like from my perspective. You love me more when we have sex.
> 
> I don't know how to shake that feeling to be honest.


I think it makes perfect sense on your side since like you said earlier, you struggled to wrap your head around the whole sex/connection idea. On the flip side, where you may think you H only loves you when you have sex, your H may feel you don't love/desire him b/c you don't want to have sex. No right or wrong with either, and always difficult to see from the other person's perspective if you have never been in their shoes.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> Both are true. With a random woman, it is purely physical. With a woman that I love, there is an emotional connection.


I appreciate your honesty - and I think this is probably how a lot of men feel - but for me it is hard to wrap my head around. 

I've never been anything but who I am, just me, take it or leave it. I've never tried to coerce anyone into doing anything with me or looked at a man for only the pleasure he might be able to provide me for one evening. I only approach someone and talk to them if I am genuinely interested in them for their complete package. So I always found the locker room talk and PUA stuff to be very off-putting. I had a lot of male friends in my social circle growing up and I keenly listened to the way they talked to each other to glean what was important to them and what they thought was funny or cool. 

I consequently learned at a young age to put the defenses up high, and keep them up, lest I be taken advantage of. I don't mean rape or assault or anything of that nature (although I was taught to be on guard for that too) - I more mean someone taking advantage of your vulnerability, using you for a ONS then discarding you. I was very anxious to make sure that did NOT happen to me. It was important to me that whatever guy I let "in" to those walls took me seriously, and was interested in more than just sex. 

I guess it's just that hormone difference. Without pure testosterone to drive me to have sex just for the sake of sex, I saw it more as a bartering system that I resented. The woman pays the man for his attention and good deeds with sex. Note that the sex was for HIM only, not for the woman's pleasure necessarily. I didn't want a man to do things for me so that he could get sex. I wanted him to genuinely enjoy being around me and doing those things for me because he liked me enough to do so. 

To be clear- I don't think all men are pigs. I also am not denying that women can display the same predatory behavior towards men (I've witnessed it quite a few times). I think a person's drive might have a lot to do with how they view these dynamics too. A higher drive woman might have had no issue with being approached and pursued for sex, just for the sake of sex. 



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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> I rarely ever get angry or sad, so none of those for me either lol.
> *
> Could be as simple as just wanting to be close to my W, being able to just focus on each other instead of all the other noise around us, etc... Could also just be as simple as "There isn't anything else to do and it feels good, so why the heck not." Could be a variety of reasons other then me just walking around at "full attention" :grin2:*
> 
> When my W and I have sex, I feel more connected and closer to her. When we don't, or maybe a better way to put it, when we go periods without (which is very common these days), that connection/closeness fades. Granted, I am sure this will vary from person to person as what constitutes "periods without", but for me this usually varies from weeks to months without.


 See, I actually do get this like on a mental level! I'm not totally a weirdo.

Because I personally feel like I am being super invasive as a horny person and I don't want to inflict that on others, I can direct that energy elsewhere. So, with that assumption I do get a little frustrated when my husband can't or won't do the same thing. 

But, personally, sex doesn't scratch any of those itches you listed for the most part. Sex can sometimes exacerbate all of the above for me. Which is just another reason I'm lower drive than my husband.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Yes, exactly! And unfortunately when you are LD, it's more of the "uh oh he's getting cranky" variety than the other type.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Yes! I don't actually want my husband to be cranky. I don't think he wants to be cranky but he "can't help it," which does make me a bit frustrated and looking for a solution. (which, to go back to the first post is scheduling!!!)


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I appreciate your honesty - and I think this is probably how a lot of men feel - but for me it is hard to wrap my head around.
> 
> I've never been anything but who I am, just me, take it or leave it. I've never tried to coerce anyone into doing anything with me or looked at a man for only the pleasure he might be able to provide me for one evening. I only approach someone and talk to them if I am genuinely interested in them for their complete package. So I always found the locker room talk and PUA stuff to be very off-putting. I had a lot of male friends in my social circle growing up and I keenly listened to the way they talked to each other to glean what was important to them and what they thought was funny or cool.
> 
> ...


Kags,
I've always preferred to have a stable girlfriend over a bunch of random lovers. You might be surprised to learn that there were some times in which a female expressed her disappointment to me that I didn't try to sleep with her on the first date. There are no shortage of women who at some point in their lives just wanted to find someone for one night of sex. 

Again, I enjoy sex much more if it's the 100th time with someone I feel close to vs. the 1st time with any female.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> Kags,
> I've always preferred to have a stable girlfriend over a bunch of random lovers. You might be surprised to learn that there were some times in which a female expressed her disappointment to me that I didn't try to sleep with her on the first date. There are no shortage of women who at some point in their lives just wanted to find someone for one night of sex.
> 
> Again, I enjoy sex much more if it's the 100th time with someone I feel close to vs. the 1st time with any female.


I understand. I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. I just grabbed your post bc it illustrated a point- but I didn't mean that I thought you were that way. And I believe you in the female being disappointed. It isn't so much gender specific- I was just trying to give my POV as a hetero woman being approached by men. 

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> My husband says stuff to me that I don't believe. Like if he calls me sexy, he sounds like he's just saying it cuz he knows he should. My ex used to call me sexy in a husky sexy voice that made me believe him. He was far more aggressive. But I enjoy sex, when we have it, far more with my current hubby than I did with my ex. There's way more emotional connection and it just feels better. Part of that could very well be me knowing my own body better than I did in my 20's too though. But my ex was a total taker in bed, whereas current hubby is a total giver. One extreme to another, and neither one satisfies me 100%. Typical female or what??




Invite your ex to talk to you in a husky voice while husband does the 'giving', problem solved?
Yes I think some women develop better connection between their minds and their bodies later in life.
My wife used to take a while to orgasm and now she almost always comes before me. It's like she discovered some sort of express way to orgasmville. Nothing changed much from my part. Strange.




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> I wouldn't say I'm quite as far on the LD spectrum as you have described yourself to be - but I definitely relate, and I know I've posted it on these boards before. I just can't wrap my mind around emotional connection from sex. I can see it being a byproduct of an already strong emotional connection (which is what I would strongly desire) and I can see the flip side where it's just a physical act...which is what I think married sex is after those new relationship butterflies wear off. * And yes - I do believe that husbands will go to their wives for sex because they can't get it anywhere else (without breaking the traditional marriage vows at least). *


I can say categorically that this is not true for me. I was just talking to wife about this. Now that I am 'wise and educated' through TAM: that sex is a need for some HD men and a pleasure (at best) for some LD women, I immediately get slapped with "so if it's just a physical need, then you don't need me and could bang any hole in the wall".
I could punch a hole in the wall whenever I hear this (and I am not violent). It's my wife I have the 'need' to have sex with. Not 'anybody else'. It's not just a need for sex. Not sure why she has or pretends to have a hard time understanding/believing this.
It seems she's not the only one.
I wonder if LD comes 'pre-packaged' with some sort of inbuilt distrust in that regard.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> YES. That is exactly what it seems like from my perspective. You love me more when we have sex.
> 
> I don't know how to shake that feeling to be honest.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Bonding hormones are released when a couple has sex so it's normal to feel closer with more sex. What's wrong with that? Why does anything need to be shaken? Sex is supposed to be a form of expression of love...ideally.

It illustrates the mindset of an LD person quite well: because sex is not that important to them, they seem to almost be offended that somebody associates closeness with sex or puts the two in one sentence. I wonder why that is. 
It's not one without the other: both closeness and sex go hand in hand. It's not just an itch that needs to be scratched. If it was that simple, masturbation would be enough.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

kag123 said:


> And yes - I do believe that husbands will go to their wives for sex because they can't get it anywhere else (without breaking the traditional marriage vows at least).


I honestly don't understand this point. When 2 people are in a monogamous relationship, part of that is physical intimacy will only be shared with each other and not outside of the relationship. Husbands would go to their wives for sex b/c they can't get anywhere else, no different then what a W would have to do unless she wanted to cheat. They both agreed that they won't get it from anywhere else.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

More importantly: I wouldn't _want_ to get it anywhere else. Not because me can't, but because me not want. Miso lonely.:crying::wink2:


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Bonding hormones are released when a couple has sex so it's normal to feel closer with more sex. What's wrong with that? Why does anything need to be shaken? Sex is supposed to be a form of expression of love...ideally.
> 
> It illustrates the mindset of an LD person quite well: because sex is not that important to them, they seem to almost be offended that somebody associates closeness with sex or puts the two in one sentence. I wonder why that is.
> It's not one without the other: both closeness and sex go hand in hand. It's not just an itch that needs to be scratched. If it was that simple, masturbation would be enough.


:shrug: 

This is where the gap widens between LD and HD. 

I don't take offense to the fact that he loves me more when we have sex. I do get just a teeny tiny bit of resentment building because that seems to be the ONLY time he loves me - when we have sex. 

I could do literally anything else for him and never get the same reaction. 

Whereas he could do a great deal many things for me and it fills my love bank. A compliment, a nice gesture, an act of service. I will never get a reaction from him doing anything else unless it's sex. That divide is what makes it feel (to an LD) that sometimes it's just about sex. 

Add on top of that, that when there's a slow period... it's not just neutral in the relationship - it's crankiness that can ratchet up to hostility - and that makes it feel even more like wow, you only love me when we are having sex. 

I really don't BLAME him for any of it, and I have gotten to a point where I understand some of this to just be the HD nature. I do try to keep that resentment from building. It's one of the reasons I'm here on TAM trying to read as much as I can from the opposite POV. 

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> :shrug:
> 
> This is where the gap widens between LD and HD.
> 
> I don't take offense to the fact that he loves me more when we have sex. I do get just a teeny tiny bit of resentment building because that seems to be the ONLY time he loves me - when we have sex.


But that may only seem that way around to you. You might have the cart before the horse here: if your sex life was fulfilling, he wouldn't build the resent in the first place and you wouldn't be getting the feeling that he only loves you when you have sex with him...You only feel that way because you know there is resentment *when there is no sex*!
If he withheld something that was essential to you, you would still love him but you would also exhibit some resentment surely?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes, you are right. Sorry I did not add that in my post - I am only speaking for my own experience and marriage, not as a whole. 

The hardest thing to impart to my H is that I do not withhold sex purposely. Our marriage is a little odd in that he does not initiate, ever. So he puts that responsibility 100% on me and gets a little miffed if I don't meet his frequency needs. If I initiated solely when I wanted it, we would be at a much lower frequency than we actually are. So I do feel that I go above and beyond because I am trying to be aware of and cater to his needs. Sadly, what I perceive to be a herculean effort does not seem to be viewed the same by him. I do have a line in the sand where I just cannot do it that often (every day for example - I wouldn't be able to do that). He doesn't tell me what he desires. I just know when I'm not doing "enough" because crankiness and hostility begins. So over the years I've learned to walk the line, but do know that I will always be viewed as a disappointment in this area of our lives. I can only stretch so much. At some point I step back and shrug and say - I am who I am. Take it or leave it. 

Again, can only speak for myself- I do not withhold sex purposely. I just don't have the drive there to urge me along. My H does not do anything to try to inspire me (but do not blame him for that either because I don't know what to tell him to do!). I navigate through murky waters trying to do the best that I can - and a lot of times my best doesn't seem to be good enough. It stinks, but for now he seems to be staying the course. As I mentioned before we have an "at-will" marriage. Divorce at any time for any reason...hand me the papers and I'll sign them. Until the day I get those papers I'll assume he's with me of his own free will. 

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Have you asked him what his ideal frequency would be? Seems like there are a lot of assumptions going on (from both sides).
He also probably feels that it is a 'herculean' effort for you which adds to the frustration. I think if I felt that it was such an effort from my wife I would rather not do it or wait until the time when it was not an effort anymore. Or perhaps she is good at hiding it...I don't honestly know.
You mention he doesn't always 'inspire' this side in you: do you feel that it _can_ be inspired? Or have you been inspired before? Or by someone else?
I don't always get the 'inspire' thing. My wife doesn't need to do _anything_, except walk past me, for me to feel inspired to have sex with her...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Again, can only speak for myself- I do not withhold sex purposely. I just don't have the drive there to urge me along. My H does not do anything to try to inspire me (but do not blame him for that either because I don't know what to tell him to do!). I navigate through murky waters trying to do the best that I can - and a lot of times my best doesn't seem to be good enough. It stinks, but for now he seems to be staying the course. *As I mentioned before we have an "at-will" marriage. Divorce at any time for any reason...hand me the papers and I'll sign them.* Until the day I get those papers I'll assume he's with me of his own free will.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Going by your last paragraph, sex may not even be the issue (and lack of it, could just be symptom of something else?). 
I think that's when terms like "LD" may not be particularly helpful...It doesn't come across as though your connection with your husband is particularly strong and the fact that you don't feel he 'inspires' you is perhaps an indication there might be other issues, besides sex (or lack thereof). Maybe I am imagining it but everyone's situation is quite unique and even if the symptoms match or are similar, the underlying causes might be very different.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Have you asked him what his ideal frequency would be? Seems like there are a lot of assumptions going on (from both sides).
> He also probably feels that it is a 'herculean' effort for you which adds to the frustration. I think if I felt that it was such an effort from my wife I would rather not do it or wait until the time when it was not an effort anymore. Or perhaps she is good at hiding it...I don't honestly know.
> You mention he doesn't always 'inspire' this side in you: do you feel that it _can_ be inspired? Or have you been inspired before? Or by someone else?
> I don't always get the 'inspire' thing. My wife doesn't need to do _anything_, except walk past me, for me to feel inspired to have sex with her...


That's because you are HD. Don't you think your chemistry has a part to play? I do. I think I said it before on this thread. If they made a female viagra, I'd take it in a heart beat. I don't WANT my husband to have to inspire me - I want my desire to be effortless and natural and a light switch that I can flip. But it's not like that for me. And no- I don't really know what he could do, so I don't ask anything of him at all. I don't want to give wierd abstract instructions because that doesn't help either of us. I can tell you (as I tell him) that there are definitely things that turn me OFF. Such as: overt crankiness and hostility. If he's being nasty, I don't want to get in bed with him. I will tell him as much and that usually serves to make him more angry. Unfortunately "grumpiness" is his M.O., especially as he gets older! Asking someone to be less of a grouch doesn't really help, so I don't know how to change that. 

I have asked him what he wants before. His response is to shrug at me and say I dunno. If I pull his teeth he will say maybe 3-4 times a week. But when I've met 3-4 times a week he's still not happy...so his actions speak differently than his words. 

Maybe he does resent that it's a herculean effort on my part - but I don't do starfish sex. I try to be very into it. I'm not sure how to fix that problem. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Going by your last paragraph, sex may not even be the issue (and lack of it, could just be symptom of something else?).
> I think that's when terms like "LD" may not be particularly helpful...It doesn't come across as though your connection with your husband is particularly strong and the fact that you don't feel he 'inspires' you is perhaps an indication there might be other issues, besides sex (or lack thereof). Maybe I am imagining it but everyone's situation is quite unique and even if the symptoms match or are similar, the underlying causes might be very different.


Maybe, but I've always been this way in every relationship. This is just who I am. 

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

This thread is great because of some of the truly LD posters we have at TAM are speaking up, so we can hear their perspective.

As an HD but also as a student of human sexuality (including the dizzying spectrum of differences on the scale of HD to LD to asexual and all of those in between) I want to understand more than just myself (a true HD). I want to try to empathize with the different types of sexuality that exist all around us. I want to live in the knowledge that there is no right or wrong, and that truly LD people have a view of the world that is just as valid as truly HD or truly asexual people (and all of those in between). By understanding this, I do eventually learn more about myself. I learn that my body creates feelings and emotions which to me seem one way, and that others' bodies create different feelings and emotions than mine. Which means there is no one truth. Our personal body chemistry (and life experiences) create how we see the world and interpret it. We can only see our own interpretation of the world directly, but with knowledge and empathy for everyone else on the sexuality spectrum, we can also understand those who are different from us do not have a less valid view of the world.

I respect LD's and their positions and I respect HD's and their positions (and all of those in between). I don't think people can change that fundamental part of themselves, and I don't think they should try nor that anyone should try to make them change. I think instead that we should seek compatible sexual partners. If it is too late and we've already chosen someone who is incompatible, then tough choices will have to be made and it can be incredibly difficult to untangle what has already been done. I can understand those who choose to just tough it out because the commitment they made is more important than getting free of the incompatibility issue. But I can also understand those who choose to leave, or even cheat. Not that either of these is an easy decision either.

I dislike very much how TAM HD's tend to demonize LD's and that has been a running theme for a long time. I believe this demonization comes from ignorance and a willful denial of the other person's reality. That's why it feels so uncomfortable for an HD in that position: If you've gotten to the point that you are demonizing LD's in general, you can be sure that you do not understand or empathize with any position but your own. (Same goes in reverse).


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

kag123 said:


> That's because you are HD. Don't you think your chemistry has a part to play? I do. I think I said it before on this thread. If they made a female viagra, I'd take it in a heart beat. I don't WANT my husband to have to inspire me - I want my desire to be effortless and natural and a light switch that I can flip. But it's not like that for me. And no- I don't really know what he could do, so I don't ask anything of him at all. I don't want to give wierd abstract instructions because that doesn't help either of us. I can tell you (as I tell him) that there are definitely things that turn me OFF. Such as: overt crankiness and hostility. If he's being nasty, I don't want to get in bed with him. I will tell him as much and that usually serves to make him more angry. Unfortunately "grumpiness" is his M.O., especially as he gets older! Asking someone to be less of a grouch doesn't really help, so I don't know how to change that.
> *
> I have asked him what he wants before. His response is to shrug at me and say I dunno. If I pull his teeth he will say maybe 3-4 times a week. But when I've met 3-4 times a week he's still not happy...so his actions speak differently than his words.
> *
> ...


Sounds familiar:wink2:

He will not tell you what he really wants (likely every day for the most part) because he knows from years of experience it is not possible and you know, he loves you I assume. So he tells you what he thinks he could live with and might be possible. Problem is, I bet you can't do 3-4 times per week on any kind of sustained basis. A burst for a week or two 'doesn't count' as far as seeing if it would make him happy goes. You would need to sustain it for a couple months to see, which probably can't be done. Around here stringing together 3 weeks in a row of 1 time leads to an inevitable week or two off.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's no such thing as "LD's in general". There's a plethora of root causes, some physiological, some psychological, some due to culture or family of origin, skeletons in the closet, resentment, and everything in between, including bait and switch, harried spouse, gaming spouse, cheating spouse, and so on and so forth.

A spouse with​ LD isn't a monster or anything. A spouse with LD becomes a monster if he / she is aware of the disparity in drives and does nothing to inform the other spouse or to work at the best of their abilities to address the issue.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Sounds familiar:wink2:
> 
> He will not tell you what he really wants (likely every day for the most part) because he knows from years of experience it is not possible and you know, he loves you I assume. So he tells you what he thinks he could live with and might be possible. Problem is, I bet you can't do 3-4 times per week on any kind of sustained basis. A burst for a week or two 'doesn't count' as far as seeing if it would make him happy goes. You would need to sustain it for a couple months to see, which probably can't be done. Around here stringing together 3 weeks in a row of 1 time leads to an inevitable week or two off.


Probably right - so what do you do when one person's best effort still isn't good enough?

Hence - why I call it "at will" marriage. All I can do is try my best, knowing that one day he may decide it's not good enough. I've made peace with that. Does it suck - you bet. Doesn't mean I'd be happy if he left, but I wouldn't blame him and certainly wouldn't hold him back. 

I've decided that his best is good enough for me and I won't be leaving. But that doesn't mean he will feel the same way and I can't control that. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> There's no such thing as "LD's in general". There's a plethora of root causes, some physiological, some psychological, some due to culture or family of origin, skeletons in the closet, resentment, and everything in between, including bait and switch, harried spouse, gaming spouse, cheating spouse, and so on and so forth.
> 
> A spouse with​ LD isn't a monster or anything. A spouse with LD becomes a monster if he / she is aware of the disparity in drives and does nothing to inform the other spouse or to work at the best of their abilities to address the issue.


There's no such thing as "HD's in general", either. Being HD "in general" doesn't mean that the HD person is healthy. 

They may be HD because they are using sex to seek outside validation, and they have no self esteem without this. 

They may be HD because they do not want to face their own issues and their main distraction from their issues is sex. 

They may be HD because they are soothing past trauma, and they may not have been HD if they had never experienced the trauma. 

They may be HD because they absorbed the message from somewhere early on, that sex is the ONLY way to "bond", or that sex is the only way to express themselves. 

They may be HD for *****s but not madonnas. 

They may be HD because they came from a culture that highly values HD people and downright expects it from people and labels them as "wrong" if they are LD. 

They may be HD because they are insecure about their spouse or other reasons, and they try to use sex as a way to gauge their spouse's interest and intentions, rather than just having sex to bond, or for pleasure.

They may be HD because they need exercise and stimulation, but they are too lazy or out of shape or uninformed to know that regular exercise is what the body needs.

A spouse with HD becomes a monster if he/she is aware of the disparity in drives but does not accept the LD person's feelings and reality as valid.

There is no "right" way or reason for being HD just as there is no right way or reason to be LD. If you are one or the other, then you are. Your reasons are yours and are valid.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Trying to map onto something else - though nothing is a good model for sex.

Imagine a partner who didn't want to say "I love you" or any equivalent words. Someone who didn't see the point of those words since their actions made it obvious.

I think many people would say that words of that sort are a natural part of a romantic relationship. You see your partner, give them a hug or kiss, say "love you"..... and expect the same response back. It would feel like rejection if they don't respond.

OTOH, I can see that having a partner who wants you to always say it could be a huge put-off as well. "tell me you love me" repeated over and over is not very attractive.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree with what you wrote. I just want to say though that many of the HDs here are posting out of frustration / desperation - faced with a problem that they can't solve. They shouldn't take it out on others, but it a natural, if bad reaction.

Many of the HDs are stuck in a situation in which they see no way out. Their need for sex in order to feel love is very real - its not something they can change. They find themselves in a sort of evil fairy-tale, living close to a person that they love, but unable to actually love them or be loved in return. Yet at the same time bound to them so that they cannot honorably find anyone else. 

It is a tragedy repeated over and over. Two people in love, yet so incompatible in this way that neither can be happy. Doomed because they cannot leave the one they love, yet cannot be happy with them. 








Faithful Wife said:


> snip
> 
> I dislike very much how TAM HD's tend to demonize LD's and that has been a running theme for a long time. I believe this demonization comes from ignorance and a willful denial of the other person's reality. That's why it feels so uncomfortable for an HD in that position: If you've gotten to the point that you are demonizing LD's in general, you can be sure that you do not understand or empathize with any position but your own. (Same goes in reverse).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Exactly, FW. it works both ways. I do not dispute that.

However, in a marriage there is an expectation of intimacy at a "reasonable" SLA. Even the courts have said so and indeed many states have specific constructive abandonment laws.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I agree with what you wrote. I just want to say though that many of the HDs here are posting out of frustration / desperation - faced with a problem that they can't solve. They shouldn't take it out on others, but it a natural, if bad reaction.
> 
> Many of the HDs are stuck in a situation in which they see no way out. Their need for sex in order to feel love is very real - its not something they can change. They find themselves in a sort of evil fairy-tale, living close to a person that they love, but unable to actually love them or be loved in return. Yet at the same time bound to them so that they cannot honorably find anyone else.
> 
> It is a tragedy repeated over and over. Two people in love, yet so incompatible in this way that neither can be happy. Doomed because they cannot leave the one they love, yet cannot be happy with them.


Your post still shows more compassion to HD's than LD's, IMO.

The same could be said of the agony that LD's who honestly love their HD's spouses, but yet simply cannot remain true to their own nature if they simply "put out" and try to make the HD happy. Their plight is no less valid or painful than the HD's plight. They may even wish they could be different, because they love their HD so much and wish they could make them happy...yet they have tried sincerely to do that and found they could not. Because just like an HD cannot fully betray his or her own baseline "needs", and LD cannot do that either and having more sex would put them in the position of betraying THEIR baseline "needs".

Having read many LD's and asexual people's stories, I know that a vast majority of them do love their partners and do not want their partners to be in such turmoil over the lack of sex (or lack of participation, expression of desire, etc), but they have no way to change who they are at the core in order to accommodate the space between their sex drive and their partner's.

Some LD's and some HD's have been able to successfully bridge this gap....yet, the examples of those partnerships does not mean that any other partnership should or ever will be able to bridge that gap. So once in awhile we have an LD spouse who says "hey just do it and do it with enthusiasm, it won't hurt you and it will save your marriage, that's how I've saved mine!" And this too is not a helpful message to an LD who simply cannot be true to themselves and still "put out" more often than they feel natural to do. The LD who says "just do it" obviously is coming from a different position than the LD who has tried that and knows they simply can't do it.

And sometimes we get an HD here who says "hey other HD's, drop the pressure, do your own thing, focus on yourself and he/she will take notice and come running!" Yet those HD's who have tried this and their LD's did not come running are not going to be benefitted by that message.

Some LD's and some HD's get some bit of info that they try and it actually works. Like sometimes when an LD reads an article about what the HD goes through, then the LD will find that they were LD for situational reasons, not because it is their baseline. Things do sometimes work out.

But when we try to paint all situations as if one of these scenarios "should" work for them, we are not being fair to the huge amount of mismatches that will never change and will end in divorce, no matter what methods are used. That situation is valid also, and I've been through it myself. 

Ending a sexless situation is a valid option. Staying in one and just dealing with it is, too.

I think staying in one but assuming whatever your position is as the "higher ground" is not a very valid option. It simply causes that person to become bitter, resentful, and even further away from being their true sexual self.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But no definition that I know of for "reasonable". I think in many cases with mismatched marriages both partners really are convinced that their desires are reasonable and that their partners are being unreasonable. 







john117 said:


> Exactly, FW. it works both ways. I do not dispute that.
> 
> However, in a marriage there is an expectation of intimacy at a "reasonable" SLA. Even the courts have said so and indeed many states have specific constructive abandonment laws.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Exactly, FW. it works both ways. I do not dispute that.
> 
> However, in a marriage there is an expectation of intimacy at a "reasonable" SLA. Even the courts have said so and indeed many states have specific constructive abandonment laws.


"Reasonable" to an LD may be once a year, and there is nothing wrong with that POV if it is truly that person's baseline. It doesn't matter what any government body says nor what any average statistics of sexual activity is to a true LD who has a baseline that low. Those people exist, have valid realities and needs, and are not any less important to the understanding of sexuality than the HD who wants it every day.

A mismatch is the responsibility of both partners and there is no reason to demonize the LD partner OR the HD partner.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> But no definition that I know of for "reasonable". I think in many cases with mismatched marriages both partners really are convinced that their desires are reasonable and that their partners are being unreasonable.


And if instead they could reach a point where they both understood that ANY individual position is reasonable, therefore their partner's position is reasonable to them and is valid and is not something that is "wrong" with them, then possibly progress can be made.

Otherwise, if you have 2 partners who both think they are reasonable but their partner isn't, then you will see turmoil (even if just under the surface, such as in your situation) in the relationship. This kind of turmoil makes the relationship unstable at best.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I agree with what you wrote. I just want to say though that many of the HDs here are posting out of frustration / desperation - faced with a problem that they can't solve. They shouldn't take it out on others, but it a natural, if bad reaction.
> 
> Many of the HDs are stuck in a situation in which they see no way out. Their need for sex in order to feel love is very real - its not something they can change. They find themselves in a sort of evil fairy-tale, living close to a person that they love, but unable to actually love them or be loved in return. Yet at the same time bound to them so that they cannot honorably find anyone else.
> 
> It is a tragedy repeated over and over. Two people in love, yet so incompatible in this way that neither can be happy. Doomed because they cannot leave the one they love, yet cannot be happy with them.


The only problem with this is the HD makes a choice, every day, to remain in the marriage. 

For that, they (we) have nowhere to look but ourselves.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed, but I think both need to recognize it. 

There is an undercurrent in these situations of wanting validation. A very difficult to resist desire that your partner understand how you feel, rather than just dismiss you as a horny goat or frigid wife. 

I want my wife to believe that wanting passionate sex twice a week is not a selfish immature desire, but within the normal range of human expectations. Or put differently, I don't want her to think of me as a dirty old man / pervert who only wants her for sex. 

Of course I need to really believe that sex is extremely difficult for her, not something she can just do casually to make me happy. Or put differently, I need to understand that she is not simply selfish, wanting sex only exactly when and how she wants it. 





Faithful Wife said:


> And if instead they could reach a point where they both understood that ANY individual position is reasonable, therefore their partner's position is reasonable to them and is valid and is not something that is "wrong" with them, then possibly progress can be made.
> 
> Otherwise, if you have 2 partners who both think they are reasonable but their partner isn't, then you will see turmoil (even if just under the surface, such as in your situation) in the relationship. This kind of turmoil makes the relationship unstable at best.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Agreed, but I think both need to recognize it.
> 
> There is an undercurrent in these situations of wanting validation. A very difficult to resist desire that your partner understand how you feel, rather than just dismiss you as a horny goat or frigid wife.
> 
> ...


The need for her to see it your way is an extension of needing that validation.

I have stopped that. All of it. I don't want anyone to have that much control over my life except me. I seek my validation in my hobbies, and in life in general.

The unintended consequence is less emotional intimacy with my wife because I now share less with her. This is not out of spite, but I no longer share my victories with her because it was being done for attaboys. I struggle with sharing without looking for validation, so mum is the word.

If she finds out about something and mentions it, great. If not, no loss.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Reasonable" to an LD may be once a year, and there is nothing wrong with that POV if it is truly that person's baseline. It doesn't matter what any government body says nor what any average statistics of sexual activity is to a true LD who has a baseline that low. Those people exist, have valid realities and needs, and are not any less important to the understanding of sexuality than the HD who wants it every day.
> 
> A mismatch is the responsibility of both partners and there is no reason to demonize the LD partner OR the HD partner.


Reasonable is subject to population stereotypes and expectations.

If I make jet engines, a ten minute warmup is expected. If I make lawnmower engines, a ten minute warmup will have me go out of business in a week.

The problem really starts if I sell my ten minute warmup lawnmower at Home Depot without any indication of the extra long warmup time.

When I work with marketing to help them create ad copy, I make sure they don't get carried away because of things like implied contracts or implied warranties of merchantability and the like. Nobody is owed sex at 40 or 50 or ever but the underlying assumption of performance is there. How much? If it is not spelled out that's where the community standards / norms / cues come into play. 

The exact set of reasoning applies to HD's as well.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Agreed, but I think both need to recognize it.
> 
> There is an undercurrent in these situations of wanting validation. A very difficult to resist desire that your partner understand how you feel, rather than just dismiss you as a horny goat or frigid wife.
> 
> ...


Believing LD's are "selfish" is a common theme among the HD's at TAM. And because to an HD, just "putting out" more shouldn't seem like such a big thing to do, the HD's then project upon the LD's that there is something wrong with them, they are selfish, they don't love the HD's as much as the HD's love the LD's, and on and on and on with the projections.

Whereas, if the HD was actually empathetic and informed about the validity of every individual person's experience, they could see how much their LD actually HAS ALREADY tried to bend (in most cases) and that they found that they simply cannot bend more. Just as the HD will not bend more, either. The HD may accept less sex than they want, but they will not stop wanting more. They can't. And the LD can't stop wanting whatever their acceptable amount is, either.

To many of the LD in these situations, the HD is the one who looks selfish, loves them less, etc. The LD's who are here on this thread, sharing their experiences, have all talked of how they loved their HD and tried to figure out ways to meet in the middle somehow....but also how foreign the HD's perspective seemed to them. They are speaking honestly and openly...and yet not one of them has said "yeah, I coulda just put out more but I didn't because I didn't want to because I just didn't really care about how he/she felt, whatever, their silly need for sex was stupid". Instead they say how they really did try to understand it, but found they could not change themselves, even though they may have wanted to due to their love for their HD.

I'm guessing your wife would describe her sex life similarly. That she just doesn't have a need for sex and finds it very difficult to do, that she has always been this way regardless of the beginnings of new relationships with you and others when she was very young making it seem different, and that she knows you want more and have a high drive...but that she can't change herself and hopes you are happy with the lives you two have, because she is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Reasonable is subject to population stereotypes and expectations.


Not when it comes to one individual and their personal needs, desires and drives. I have zero need to understand what reasonable means to the population, nor what the population's "expectations" are. I only have a need to understand myself and choose a partner accordingly (or cut one loose, accordingly).

I do choose to understand more about the population's expectations and desire levels because it is interesting to me on the subject of sexuality in general.

But in my personal life, it don't mean squat that the average couple has sex twice per week.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I dislike very much how TAM HD's tend to demonize LD's and that has been a running theme for a long time. I believe this demonization comes from ignorance and a willful denial of the other person's reality. That's why it feels so uncomfortable for an HD in that position: If you've gotten to the point that you are demonizing LD's in general, you can be sure that you do not understand or empathize with any position but your own. (Same goes in reverse).


Two things:

‘Demonizing’ seems an unnecessarily provocative word and I am not sure why it is being used other than to incite an argument or sabotage an otherwise friendly conversation about a difficult subject. I am not sure how asking probing questions to understand the other’s perspectives better or explaining your own point of view to facilitate an exchange is ignorant. In a normal world, seeking knowledge through exchange is the opposite of ignorance. I have not seen anyone ‘demonizing’ anyone else on this thread.

Secondly, the post is loaded with pseudo-tolerance: slapping someone with an LD or HD “diagnosis” without first eliminating other causes is neither tolerant nor especially helpful IMO. 
Is it reasonable to view LD-ness or HD-ness entirely independent from the partner? I have done a thread on this and it was clear from the responses that while in some cases, it might be reasonable, in many cases however, it has been established that those ‘symptoms’ are often partner-dependant. Someone who is LD with one partner can become HD with another partner and vice versa. That’s just as simple as being attracted or not so attracted to someone else. If someone is not that attracted to their partner, telling them then “it’s ok, that’s just because you are LD” at the expense of ignoring other, potentially more pertinent reasons, would seem ludicrous.

Lets assume cases where an LD and HD partner mismatch is purely a physical manifestation and is constant from partner to partner. Even in those cases, the mismatch is often so great that it is too painful for both partners to remain together in a marriage and not end up resenting each other. It is often a much better course of action for everyone concerned to find a partner who is a better match instead rather than being oh so tolerant, buying the LD/HD badge and sticking it out in misery. 

One can understand the other’s LD or HD ‘affliction’ all day long until the cows come home: what does it mean in practice for the couple? 

As George Bernard Shaw said, one should beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> One can understand the other’s LD or HD ‘affliction’ all day long until the cows come home: what does it mean in practice for the couple?


It means they accept it, or end it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> It means they accept it, or end it.


No. There is a third option: compromise.

And that is usually the most productive one. The first two are in fact the least 'tolerant' and compassionate options.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Not when it comes to one individual and their personal needs, desires and drives. I have zero need to understand what reasonable means to the population, nor what the population's "expectations" are. I only have a need to understand myself and choose a partner accordingly (or cut one loose, accordingly).
> 
> I do choose to understand more about the population's expectations and desire levels because it is interesting to me on the subject of sexuality in general.
> 
> But in my personal life, it don't mean squat that the average couple has sex twice per week.


As long as the merchandise is property labeled and the buyer makes an informed choice when buying I am fine with it. 

It may be a personal preference but such preferences involve TWO adults, one of which did not take a vow of celibacy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> No. There is a third option: compromise.
> 
> And that is usually the most productive one. The first two are in fact the least 'tolerant' and compassionate options.


Compromise is included in accept it. Some accept it but hate every moment of it and there is no compromise. Some accept it precisely because there is compromise. It doesn't matter what terms any individual chooses to accept it are, or not accept it. Compromise in itself is not acceptable to some.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> As long as the merchandise is property labeled and the buyer makes an informed choice when buying I am fine with it.
> 
> It may be a personal preference but such preferences involve TWO adults, one of which did not take a vow of celibacy.


Things change, people do not know who they will be in the future. Of those TWO adults you mention, one may be perfectly happy even though everything is a lot different than who they were when they started.

Ideally, both partners would grow and change at the same rate, or both stay exactly who they are and still love each other as it was in the beginning, or some combination of both. This does happen sometimes (like with SimplyAmorous's marriage).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PS: Obviously there are extremes at each end (one can argue about what is 'normal', in the sense what is a statistical outlier and what is within the normal distribution. One can also argue what is 'valid').

I am not that interested in arguing about any of these terms but rather want to make sure other, more obvious reasons are eliminated first, through discussion and asking questions.

I don't get where the 'demonizing' is coming from...

When we talk about compromises, it feels like some form of political correctness is gone astray: if there are medical reasons why an LD partner can't try to have sex weekly or monthly, rather than yearly or decade-ly, then I doubt many partners would develop resentment.
I think we have to take some form of 'norms' into account to have a conversation: forcing the LD partner to have sex multiple times a day is just as unreasonable as for an LD partner not to compromise for months and years. That doesn't mean both points are not 'valid' but any 'extremes' are very unlikely going to make the marriage work.

Is being HD/LD to you @Faithful Wife a sexual orientation in the same way that homosexuality is for example or is it a preference or something else?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Is being HD/LD to you (@Faithful wife) a sexual orientation in the same way that homosexuality is for example or is it a preference or something else?


Yes and like orientation, for some people it is fixed very rigidly the same throughout their lifetime.

For other people it can evolve, it can change, it can be fluid, it can change back, it can be different with different partners, it can be different at different times in their lives, it can be affected greatly by hormonal changes, and it can be influenced by experiences both positive and negative.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Secondly, the post is loaded with pseudo-tolerance: slapping someone with an LD or HD “diagnosis” without first eliminating other causes is neither tolerant nor especially helpful IMO.
> Is it reasonable to view LD-ness or HD-ness entirely independent from the partner? I have done a thread on this and it was clear from the responses that while in some cases, it might be reasonable, in many cases however, it has been established that those ‘symptoms’ are often partner-dependant. Someone who is LD with one partner can become HD with another partner and vice versa. That’s just as simple as being attracted or not so attracted to someone else. If someone is not that attracted to their partner, telling them then “it’s ok, that’s just because you are LD” at the expense of ignoring other, potentially more pertinent reasons, would seem ludicrous.
> 
> .


I think you raise a good point. Sometimes a lack of sexual attraction is about the person, or the dynamics of the relationship. Sometimes people do things that are just a complete turnoff to their partners, without even realizing it. Or treat them in a way that makes them feel the exact opposite of sexy. We've heard a few stories like that on this thread. 

This might .... or might not ... be easier to fix. After all, it is still dependent on whether a person is willing to change.

Personally, I'm not convinced that LD and HD are all that useful as categories. My husband might seem LD to me, but HD to someone else. Is that what we call "normal"? 

That said, it does make sense to me that we have our own personal baselines. As someone who gets quite depressed and cranky when I go for longer durations without sex, I can totally relate to this complaint, and I can't really change that. What I can do is own it, and realize that this is just who I am, and it's not necessarily anyone else's responsibility to manage that. I have to find my own way, just as they have to find theirs.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes and like orientation, for some people it is fixed very rigidly the same throughout their lifetime.
> 
> For other people it can evolve, it can change, it can be fluid, it can change back, it can be different with different partners, it can be different at different times in their lives, it can be affected greatly by hormonal changes, and it can be influenced by experiences both positive and negative.


Ok, so that's the assumption where the misunderstandings or 'clashes' might be arising from. The major difference is that homosexuality never really changes over the course of one's lifetime (perhaps with some rare exceptions or discounting the cases where the power of Jesus 'heals' it...).
Nor is there a form of homosexuality that is fluid and changes over one's lifetime or the course of a relationship.

This is not at all so in many instances with sex drives: here it's much more complex and much more fluid. It is often influenced by hormones, it is influenced by actual partner, age, career, it is influenced by stress and millions of other reasons. (And yes, it is sometimes even influenced by the desire to manipulate in very few cases). 'Sex drive' cannot really be called an orientation by any reasonable definition.

That's not to say it's always a choice either. Maybe preference is also too weak a word since it is often driven by physical/biological reasons, in addition to many possible other reasons. *I am always interested in those other reasons first*, as a first port of call. 

Perhaps there is something inbetween?

You can see why it can cause confusion...

Clearly, you are right that 'demonizing' the _person_ makes little sense, if that's what people are doing: I personally have not noticed it. What i noticed is that many are frustrated *with the situation*they find themselves in, more than anything else. Presumably, that's also a valid point of view


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> You can see why it can cause confusion...


Yes. Because people are complex! That's what makes us so endlessly fascinating. :grin2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Reasonable" to an LD may be once a year, and there is nothing wrong with that POV if it is truly that person's baseline. It doesn't matter what any government body says nor what any average statistics of sexual activity is to a true LD who has a baseline that low. Those people exist, have valid realities and needs, and are not any less important to the understanding of sexuality than the HD who wants it every day.
> 
> A mismatch is the responsibility of both partners and there is no reason to demonize the LD partner OR the HD partner.


The other obvious question is what, in your eyes, is the expression of love and whether sex features anywhere on the list at all... You mentioned that people can still love each other without having any desire to have any sex. While this may be true (especially among family members...) and a 'valid' point of view, would you say that this was always a commonly accepted view when it comes to a marriage?
Your post and the call for more 'tolerance' (while calling others ignorant) seems to imply that we should re-define our understanding and expectations of what marriages are 'supposed to be like', by using LD/HD terms akin to a medical diagnosis (absolving the issue from any form of expectation) which comes back to my point about perhaps some form of political correctness gone slightly off rails...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> That's because you are HD. Don't you think your chemistry has a part to play? I do. I think I said it before on this thread. If they made a female viagra, I'd take it in a heart beat. I don't WANT my husband to have to inspire me - I want my desire to be effortless and natural and a light switch that I can flip. But it's not like that for me. And no- I don't really know what he could do, so I don't ask anything of him at all. I don't want to give wierd abstract instructions because that doesn't help either of us. I can tell you (as I tell him) that there are definitely things that turn me OFF. Such as: overt crankiness and hostility. If he's being nasty, I don't want to get in bed with him. I will tell him as much and that usually serves to make him more angry. Unfortunately "grumpiness" is his M.O., especially as he gets older! Asking someone to be less of a grouch doesn't really help, so I don't know how to change that.
> 
> I have asked him what he wants before. His response is to shrug at me and say I dunno. If I pull his teeth he will say maybe 3-4 times a week. But when I've met 3-4 times a week he's still not happy...so his actions speak differently than his words.
> 
> ...


Yes, of course I realise it's because I am (probably) HD. I also said the same thing about a pill to take to lower the drive. I can however say categorically that my drive is directly related to my wife. When she is not around (or I am away on a trip), I don't really have that much desire for anything sexual with anyone else, my hands included (after a week, I might remember).
Perhaps it's different with you and others, where drive is entirely independent from their partner (though it seems like his crankiness puts you off to some extent).

Anyway, if he's still cranky even after you meet his frequency, then perhaps he's not happy with the quality or he feels that it's possibly 'duty'-like? Have you 'pulled his teeth' about why he still is cranky?

Sometimes men tend to get used to acting cranky, out of habit. I know from myself that it's an easy state of mind to slip back into, since in the past, my wife was much less forthcoming re meeting sexual needs and acting cranky is a natural response, unfortunately. Old habits die hard as they say.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Steve1000 said:


> My wife also doesn't seem to associate sex with having an emotional connection. She does however seem to receive a high level of physical pleasure, up to the point of being on the verge of climaxing. She then seems to stop herself from going over the edge. Your description of eating a sandwich or sneezing gives me the impression that you also don't experience much physical pleasure out of sex. Is that the case?


Yes, that is the case, unfortunately. I don't get much out of sex, only happiness at pleasing my partner. Sexual activity is not an activity I'd seek out for it's own sake.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> The only problem with this is the HD makes a choice, every day, to remain in the marriage.
> 
> For that, they (we) have nowhere to look but ourselves.


I think what maybe gets missed as well, in many cases people end up with someone who they are a sexual match for early on (so saying that they should seek out a match, well, they thought they had). The "mismatch" occurs over time for a variety of reasons (could be bait & switch, hormonal, comfort in a long term relationship, other stresses/responsibilities, etc...)

This is what makes the choice to remain in the marriage even that much more complicated.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I had asked before (and had asked long before that too) if you ever checked into the thought that she may be on the spectrum. I don't think you answered, but from much of what you've written, I suspect she is. Many people on the spectrum have a hard time connecting emotionally, in general, and they tend to not understand the emotions of other people or what their emotional needs are. They can also tend to not be able to fulfill those emotional needs because they are not that capable of being extremely emotionally bonded anyway.


Yes you have, yes I have, and no I don't believe she is 

What I do think is that autism has somewhat turned in to the catch-all diagnosis for people who don't see things the way we see them, or who view things in a way that many don't.

I don't dismiss it as a diagnosis, but I don't believe for a second that it explains why she is the way she is in regards to sex or relationships.

As I've said numerous times over the years, I don't believe she was like this once upon a time. I get the impression she was more free, more trusting, more naive when it came to relationships (and sex). It's hard to explain on a forum like this, but my wife is very much the personality who approaches life flying by the seat of her pants - until she crashes. And when she inevitably crashes, she puts barriers in place to ensure she never crashes again. She's not manic, by any stretch of the imagination, she just does things her way for as long as they work, and tends not to heed advice from more experienced people, if that makes sense.

I believe she likes sex, and I know she was far more free with her body when she was younger. But sex isn't always a positive, unfortunately. I know she's had relationships where she's felt used, sexually, and at least one other in which she was made to not feel good enough, sexually (was cheated on). She also had an unexpected pregnancy when younger, and the father abandoned them. And then shortly after having her second child (planned, this time), the guy almost immediately accused her of cheating because she wasn't giving it up right away (I went into more depth about this previously. Long story).

Those were the few people she loved, and they all blew up because of something sex-related. It's just that I get the blowback from those *******s.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Your post still shows more compassion to HD's than LD's, IMO.
> 
> The same could be said of the agony that LD's who honestly love their HD's spouses, but yet simply cannot remain true to their own nature if they simply "put out" and try to make the HD happy. Their plight is no less valid or painful than the HD's plight. They may even wish they could be different, because they love their HD so much and wish they could make them happy...yet they have tried sincerely to do that and found they could not. Because just like an HD cannot fully betray his or her own baseline "needs", and LD cannot do that either and having more sex would put them in the position of betraying THEIR baseline "needs".
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is claiming a higher moral ground here (but I do applaud you for being one of the few here to study human’s sexuality). Lets back up a bit because this post is somewhat detached from reality.

Nobody denies that both HDs and LDs struggle when in a relationship but claiming that this struggle is exactly symmetrical is IMO disingenuous.

What exactly do HDs suffer from? From not getting enough/any sex.

What do LDs suffer from? From getting too much sex? Not really (unless they are being forced against their will which I don’t think is very common nowadays). *They suffer from not being able to understand and emulate the HD partner’s behaviour* (those are the ones who try to make any effort to understand it at all: there are many more who don’t give it a second thought and who also don’t post here. This is not ‘demonization’, it is a reality. It's certainly much more than those HDs who rape their wives without consent. If it was the same number then the struggle could be called 'symmetrical'). This is the crucial difference which you don’t seem to acknowledge. 

Yes, expecting or forcing the other person to be someone they are not or to feel things they are unable to feel is in many cases unreasonable (and this has always been my position in borderline cases like Alexm’s and others: compromise would work perfectly fine in those cases and I think what they have may be even better than a 'compromise').

What seems to be happening is that a few posts by LD wives who feel bad about the fact that they cannot feel the same way as the HD husband feels (where some do something about it and some still don’t do anything) trigger a ‘but their struggle is just a horrible as the HD persons’s struggle, can you not see how they suffer from their writing, it is not tolerant and ignorant to dismiss it’ response. No, sorry, it is not an equivalent situation.
There are also examples of people like @GettingIt_2 who *have* made an effort to change, not just to accommodate their husband but through compassion (another aspect what marriages are about) because they truly understood what their husbands were going through (which seems to imply that it is more of a *choice*, in those cases anyway). They now have a fulfilling sex life and marriage together. Is she struggling? I doubt it. Perhaps only from not realising this earlier.

The point is about asymmetry: is it the same amount of pain and does it have the same consequences for an LD to have a little more sex than they would normally be accustomed to than for an HD to suck it up and have little or no sex at all in their marriage? (Of which sexual aspect is a big part, or so it is generally understood).
Note how most LDs actually enjoy the activity (and have orgasms from it etc) when it does happen. *The confusion or "struggle" is only associated with not being able to meet the partners expectations of feeling exactly as their HD counterpart. Not from sex itself.*

What happens to HDs? (Read @Holdingontoit ’s and similar posts for better understanding of what their life turns out to be) and please don't pretend there is a silent majority of LD wives whose lives have been wrecked from too much sex.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> As I've said numerous times over the years, I don't believe she was like this once upon a time. I get the impression she was more free, more trusting, more naive when it came to relationships (and sex).


Just out of curiosity, what gives you this impression? (I know, for example, that my husband doesn't have any real sense of how I felt in my past sexual relationships, other than what he's been directly told. And the reverse is also true).

Past trauma, though, is definitely a common source of people shutting down. And if you're right, much could be gained if she were willing to work on healing from that.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> I do wonder, and would be interesting to know what your W thought or anyone else who is LD in the relationship, do they assume that every single time the HD wants to have sex it is b/c they are a raging ball of hormones (i.e. does your W think every time you try to initiate it is b/c she is the only option for you to get off)? I could think of plenty of times I initiated for reasons other then being horny. I guess my thinking here, if the LD assumes the HD is just a big bag of hormones, it makes it easier to use that as an excuse to put minimal effort in on the LDs part and as well can also foster the idea that the HD only wants you for sex (which further diminishes any effort put in by the LD).
> 
> Not sure what all this gender sexuality talk is about. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that in general men and women are different, with things being more complicated on the female side. Having large quantities of Testosterone does go a long way lol.
> 
> Curious, @alexm , do you think your W's weekly naked routine will continue, or are you expecting that maybe the novelty/challenge will slowly wear off?


I don't think my wife thinks I only want her for sex. If you read my reply to FW above, it's probably fairly easy to ascertain that my wife requires a level of control. I really do think she likes sex, and wants to have it - but only on her terms, and only in measured quantities.

I think the need for controlling her sexuality is due to the (in her eyes) negative experiences she's had re: past relationships, and how they essentially all blew up because of something sex-related.

It might be an odd analogy, but when I was younger, I was a binge-drinker. I never required alcohol, like an alcoholic did, but getting drunk with my friends was my weekend thing. I looked forward to it, and I couldn't wait to get started partying once Friday rolled around. Then Sunday to Thursday, it was completely out of my mind. For me, I felt in control, as long as it was 'weekends only'. I didn't have a problem, I didn't 'need' alcohol, etc etc etc. By the time I hit 19 or so, it dawned on me that, clearly I DID need alcohol to have a good time... It had also got me in some trouble over the years, arrested once, and I was suddenly full of regrets.

The control I thought I had was actually false. I never fit the true definition of 'alcoholic' (never had a physical dependency on it), but I had a problem. It wasn't hard to stop binge drinking at all. Although it had been a lot of fun for those years, gave me a lot of stories, etc. the handful of negatives it generated outweighed the 100's of positives.

I can still have a few drinks and have a great time - I do it a few times a year these days. But it's measured and controlled, and not a part of me any longer.

I believe my wife did a similar thing with her sexuality, and for the same reasons, if that makes sense. I like to drink, but I say no FAR more often than I say yes these days. 20 years ago, I didn't say no very often, and it wasn't always the best decision...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I don't think anyone is claiming a higher moral ground here (but I do applaud you for being one of the few here to study human’s sexuality). Lets back up a bit because this post is somewhat detached from reality.
> 
> Nobody denies that both HDs and LDs struggle when in a relationship but claiming that this struggle is exactly symmetrical is IMO disingenuous.
> 
> ...


Yup. As long as it someone else who has to do the compromising, the not being heard, understood, or validated, as long as it is them that is the problem, that suffers in silence, not me, then everything is groooovy.

Or not.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Yup. As long as it someone else who has to do the compromising, the not being heard, understood, or validated, as long as it is them that is the problem, that suffers in silence, not me, then everything is groooovy.
> 
> Or not.


The normal D in the relationship does all that as well. It's always the person who cares the least that prevails, like with most negotiations​.

It's all about control, sad to say. The LD fears that upping the SLA just a wee bit will upset the balance, and from 1x or 2x a week it's a slippery slope to 2x a day. The HD (lol) has to be understanding of course but as much as we hate to admit, compromise begins at both ends and the HD has already compromised years or decades of an expected intimate life all to accommodate the LD.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OK, here is a Thread @Buddy400 had started earlier

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/359346-what-men-think-about-sex-versus-reality.html

One excerpt from the referenced article:

What Men Think about Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom



> Frequent and strong sexual desire and sexual thoughts are natural for normal for SOME PEOPLE in long-term relationships. These people are usually either men, or women who feel close, relaxed, and attractive, or who are in a new and exciting relationship. Note the lack of qualifiers after the subset “men.” Note all the qualifiers after the subset “women.” I am not saying women don’t want to have sex.
> 
> *However, all the recent research shows that sex drive in women tanks in monogamous relationships, *unlike what was previously thought, which was that men grow tired of women after a while but women never get sexually bored by their partners. So basically, it is entirely normal and natural for your wife NOT to want to have sex with you, unfortunately.
> 
> *The facts of the matter are that if your wife is experiencing decreased sexual desire, it is entirely normal. * She is likely hitting the trifecta of libido-killers for women: long-term monogamy, exhaustion, and body image issues (the latter two particularly apply after having kids). Furthermore, any resentful feelings she has about you or the relationship in general, or anything that makes her feel insecure, will also kill her sex drive. If any or many of these issues apply, she will have to apply some real effort to get into a sexual mood, and this is completely normal. See Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel for more in depth discussion of why your wife is normal in not wanting to have sex more. (Sorry, buddy.)


I am not saying this applies to everyone by any stretch, but I think this does at least highlight the whole "you should choose someone who is a sexual match" concept, because it could be very likely that you did in fact choose someone who was a match at the time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> There's no such thing as "HD's in general", either. Being HD "in general" doesn't mean that the HD person is healthy.
> 
> They may be HD because they are using sex to seek outside validation, and they have no self esteem without this.
> 
> ...


:smile2:

Is there such a thing as NORD (Normal Drive)? Or does it always have to be a relative thing? I guess not in your eyes otherwise it would render this whole discussion non-sensical.

I am only going to speak on my own behalf because otherwise it seems to trigger hostility, but I have looked at all those reasons. They don't apply to me. And to be honest they read like a projection from the female side. The only reasons I want to have sex with my wife at a certain frequency is because I find and always found her highly attractive and when she is around, I am more aroused. That is it. I would be interested to hear if many other men will be happy to tick of any of the reasons above. Somehow I doubt it.
I am generally ok with it.
The only time I was not ok when the gaps were long (1 week +). Or when I felt insincere excuses were being used and when I was humiliated for having these feelings/urges in the first place (including the "I am only good for you for sex" statements).
My 'tactic' (if it can be called such a thing) and general advice is to try and honestly voice your feelings about this subject, without shame, and try to reach some sort of middle ground with your spouse and then try not to second guess every action on her part and enjoy the sex. (The second guessing part is the difficult one, as this thread clearly shows, usually because the past is the past).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The past is a pretty good predictor of the future...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> The past is a pretty good predictor of the future...


It's not what they write in finance...

But what if the sex in the past past was great, lousy/stopped in the past and ok/good in the present? Which past is the relevant past, to predict the future?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

2020hindsight said:


> Yes, that is the case, unfortunately. I don't get much out of sex, only happiness at pleasing my partner. Sexual activity is not an activity I'd seek out for it's own sake.


I think it is commendable that you openly discuss your dilemma. In my experience, most people who don't get much out of sex have no interest to even think about the issue. I also think it's very nice that you still understand and want your partner to experience a fulfilling sex life. Since it seems that you would like to know what having a strong libido is like, I assume that you have already tried many things including being checked out to see if there is a hormonal imbalance.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

john117 said:


> Reasonable is subject to population stereotypes and expectations.


I disagree. Reasonable should not create any expectation about how often one's current partner "should" have sex. As @Faithful Wife said, she isn't going to be happy having sex only twice a week even if most other couples are.

"Reasonable" and "population expectations" are about what you can expect if you LEAVE your current partner. So if you are having sex once a month or less, and the general population of couples is having sex twice a week, then you can reasonably expect to find a partner out there in the general population who will have sex more often than once a month. Conversely, if you are having sex daily, and you like that, then you better do your best to hang onto your current partner because if you break up then you are back out there in the general population of mostly twice-a-week partners.

You can NOT use your knowledge of population data to insist that your once-a-month partner have sex twice a week "because everyone else is". I mean, you can try, but experience shows that this line of argument almost never works. It is not reasonable to expect your LD partner to have sex more frequently just because other couples do. It is reasonable to expect you could find someone else out there who would have sex roughly as often as the general population does.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree. Reasonable should not create any expectation about how often one's current partner "should" have sex. As @Faithful Wife said, she isn't going to be happy having sex only twice a week even if most other couples are.
> 
> "Reasonable" and "population expectations" are about what you can expect if you LEAVE your current partner. So if you are having sex once a month or less, and the general population of couples is having sex twice a week, then you can reasonably expect to find a partner out there in the general population who will have sex more often than once a month. Conversely, if you are having sex daily, and you like that, then you better do your best to hang onto your current partner because if you break up then you are back out there in the general population of mostly twice-a-week partners.
> 
> You can NOT use your knowledge of population data to insist that your once-a-month partner have sex twice a week "because everyone else is". I mean, you can try, but experience shows that this line of argument almost never works. It is not reasonable to expect your LD partner to have sex more frequently just because other couples do. It is reasonable to expect you could find someone else out there who would have sex roughly as often as the general population does.


People might be talking about different types of expectations. There are three types of expectations that appeared n this discussion. There's the expectation based on statistics/population/cultures and there are certain societal expectations of what a marriage _should_ be like. Then there is an individual's expectation based on what their relationship was like before the marriage or before the sex dropped. We should probably distinguish which expectation is being discussed to avoid confusion.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Probably right - so what do you do when one person's best effort still isn't good enough?


The testosterone poisoning lessens around about 50, you've got a while to go . 

I say that jokingly but it isn't really a joke. I spent a good decade + pretty much detached emotionally as self preservation due to the frustration being that high. Folks can say we should 'just understand' all they want, it isn't necessarily possible.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Coming back to whether LD is a choice vs orientation/something one is born with: perhaps the confusion arises when distinguishing between LD partners and asexual partners:

http://www.asexualityarchive.com/things-that-are-not-asexuality/

Asexuality is not a lack of libido.

Libido is also known as a “sex drive”, that is, the desire or impulse to experience sexual satisfaction. Some asexuals do have a libido, it’s just that it’s essentially aimless. Their bits downstairs will activate and call out for attention, but that doesn’t make a person feel sexually attracted toward anyone else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wild jade said:


> I posted a whole book reviewing the scientific literature on the topic. Which concludes, btw, that there's a lot of myths about women's sexuality, particularly some of the "truisms" slung around TAM about the way we are wired.
> 
> Do you actually want to explore the scientific literature? Or do you just want to reinforce your preexisting biases?


The only "truisms" that I've personally "slung around TAM" are that women's sexuality is more complex that men's and that women, more often than men, aren't rationally aware of of how their sexuality works.

Is that what you are referring to as my "preexisting biases"?

Do you have some specific response to those theories? Anything in the scientific literature you could point to to counter them?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Is there such a thing as NORD (Normal Drive)? Or does it always have to be a relative thing?


I think it is always a relative thing. That is why there is no good and bad or right and wrong or normal and abnormal.

HD and LD should only be used in relation to a particular couple at a particular time. Whichever of them has less desire for their partner at that time is the LD. And the one who has more desire for their current partner is the HD. Roles can flip within a relationship over time and obviously between partners. I was the HD in my marriage to my current wife for 20+ years. But I am sure I would be the LD in a relationship with a woman who wants sex more than once or twice a week. Or who wants PIV that lasts longer than 30 seconds. Or who wants oral sex after I orgasmed inside her. And I am the LD now that I refuse to have sex with my wife.

Which is why we should not demonize HDs or LDs. Because some day you might well find yourself on the other side of the line.

Even if most of the cases on TAM arise where there has been a consistent pattern of one spouse being the HD and the other being the LD in the current relationship. Which makes sense, because that is the pattern of intractable mismatch that motivates people to post on TAM in the first place.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think it is always a relative thing. That is why there is no good and bad or right and wrong or normal and abnormal.
> 
> HD and LD should only be used in relation to a particular couple at a particular time. Whichever of them has less desire for their partner at that time is the LD. And the one who has more desire for their current partner is the HD. Roles can flip within a relationship over time and obviously between partners. I was the HD in my marriage to my current wife for 20+ years. But I am sure I would be the LD in a relationship with a woman who wants sex more than once or twice a week. Or who wants PIV that lasts longer than 30 seconds. Or who wants oral sex after I orgasmed inside her. And I am the LD now that I refuse to have sex with my wife.
> 
> ...


Ok so I see how on the face of it, it may make sense to view it that way (and that HD/LD relationships have to always be juxtaposed in order to be classified as such). However does it make sense to ignore any perceived conceptions of 'norms' or 'customs', as far as a marriage (and what it represents) goes? 
For example (and I am genuinely curious), how will a sex therapist view a marriage, where the partner 'demands' to have sex at least once a month but the spouse rejects it, due to her 'need' not to have sex once a month and instead insists that for her to be happy, she would prefer to do it annually? (with a 'u')
I mean there comes a point where we need some sort of an 'anchor' in order to judge a certain situation and give productive advice. Not to do so, just to be understanding and politically correct (because 'all points of view are valid') seems kinda...meh? (dunno the word)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> This thought about men just wanting to get off was planted as a seed in my head as a teenager listening to "locker room talk" from the guys, and reinforced through the rest of my experiences until marriage. I was a relatively attractive young woman and found that wherever I went it was a game to be approached and for the guy to try to get you home. It's odd to then be married and have men tell you - no no that was all just manly talk, that was just boys being boys. We really do have feelings and we think sex is more than just banging some chick.
> 
> It feels suspicious at first, a little like the feeling of wondering whether a guy who is approaching you is sincerely interested or just playing a game to see if he can conquer you.
> 
> ...


My wife also had a problem believing the whole "men experience emotional connection through sex" because she was also aware that many men would have sex just to "get off" and it was hard to reconcile the two.

If I were single and a very attractive women approached me for sex, I'd happily accept. And, no, it wouldn't be because I have a need to "emotional bond" with her. Yet, if I have sex with my wife, it most definitely results in emotional bonding. 

For 90% of women and 10% of men, having sex is no big deal because sex is easily available to them (often it's not worth having, comes with too big a risk, etc. but it IS available and the idea that people want to have sex with you is sort of assumed). For these people, sex doesn't have any special connotations. Someone wants to have sex with you? Ho hum, what's new? I suspect these are the people who can't understand how sex could be about anything other than physical fulfillment. 

For the 90% of men for whom having sex is more rare. We like to assume that women want to have sex with us because they love, admire and/or respect us. When we have sex with our wives we feel those things from her and that allows us to be vulnerable to them in other areas, it allows us to be more emotional connected to them.

On the other hand, when our wives won't have sex with us (at least as often as we'd like) we do not feel the love, admiration & respect from them and that causes us to close off emotionally to protect ourselves.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok - I'm still hanging in here on this thread trying to keep up. For all you unsatisfied HD folk; why do you stay? 

I'm the one who says we have an at will marriage - but sometimes when I read here about how awful it is to be HD and not get your needs met - I want to draw up the divorce papers immediately to set my H free from his suffering! 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> Ok - I'm still hanging in here on this thread trying to keep up. For all you unsatisfied HD folk; why do you stay?


I actually answered this early on (and so did Alex I think) I stay because I want to. As a whole our marriage is pretty awesome. There's no such thing as a perfect marriage, and ours happens to need improvement in this area at the moment (although there has been improvement since this thread was started  ). I'm willing to keep trying, and so is he (despite appearances to the contrary sometimes!), and so we do.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I don't take offense to the fact that he loves me more when we have sex. I do get just a teeny tiny bit of resentment building because that seems to be the ONLY time he loves me - when we have sex.
> 
> I could do literally anything else for him and never get the same reaction.
> 
> Whereas he could do a great deal many things for me and it fills my love bank. A compliment, a nice gesture, an act of service. I will never get a reaction from him doing anything else unless it's sex. That divide is what makes it feel (to an LD) that sometimes it's just about sex.


But, you know, rationally, that this is just the difference in your respective Love Languages" right?

There's nothing more morally pure about your love language than his.

My getting my wife a cup of tea when she's in bed means a lot more to her than her doing the same for me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> The need for her to see it your way is an extension of needing that validation.
> 
> I have stopped that. All of it. I don't want anyone to have that much control over my life except me. I seek my validation in my hobbies, and in life in general.
> 
> ...


I was going to comment on it before I leave.
While i think it is healthy and important to nourish/propagate your own life/hobbies (to be independent, rather than being solely dependent on being a unit), do you not worry that, while you think you are 'ahead', she might try and seek for this connection that might be missing somewhere else/from someone else? (It seems to happen too much here on TAM for me to just let it stand and not mention anything.)
I have to be careful not to make it sound as if anyone is at fault (because there isn't), but my feeling is there is a tipping point somewhere between the whole independence factor and when shutting off/checking out of the marriage starts to set in (which i know you are not doing but it's all about how it appears to her).
I am sure you have tried dealing with it/approached it from all different angles, but do you know exactly what it is she _needs_ from you, in terms of it being a successful marriage, in her eyes?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Ok - I'm still hanging in here on this thread trying to keep up. For all you unsatisfied HD folk; why do you stay?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Don't! (unless you are absolutely sure).



I am actually pretty satisfied: most of the time I try to look at it from a glass half full perspective. (I get to have kinky sex several times a week - woohoo!)



I think at the bottom of it all, I am 90% sure I would still stay with my wife even she refused to have sex with me at all. (Because I did stay when that was almost the case for a period of time).

It's strange but when I think about her completely independently of my 'needs', I do love her as a person, regardless of how I feel about myself in my marriage. It's like admiring a piece of art from a distance, objectively. Not sure how explain it, since it flies in the face of my beliefs that no love is truly altruistic.



But I also know that part of her make up is not to give up too and also try to be understanding/compassionate a lot of the times. (This may not be the case for every couple so have to be careful of generalities.)

Usually all it takes is picking the right moment to have a discussion with her about it (preferably outside her PMS week) and she's a very smart person as far as female intuition goes (and in other aspects too).



I don't believe there is a perfect someone, for everyone (there probably is, but the chances of me finding that person are probably close to 0).



Dunno, will have to see how it goes.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I respect LD's and their positions and I respect HD's and their positions (and all of those in between). I don't think people can change that fundamental part of themselves, and I don't think they should try nor that anyone should try to make them change. I think instead that we should seek compatible sexual partners. If it is too late and we've already chosen someone who is incompatible, then tough choices will have to be made and it can be incredibly difficult to untangle what has already been done. I can understand those who choose to just tough it out because the commitment they made is more important than getting free of the incompatibility issue. But I can also understand those who choose to leave, or even cheat. Not that either of these is an easy decision either.


There are some situations that can be resolved (and, especially, if kids are involved) and the attempt should be made.

Also, given that the incompatibility may not make itself known until after kids enter the relationship, looking for compatible people before you marry isn't always going to work.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

kag123 said:


> Ok - I'm still hanging in here on this thread trying to keep up. For all you unsatisfied HD folk; why do you stay?
> 
> I'm the one who says we have an at will marriage - but sometimes when I read here about how awful it is to be HD and not get your needs met - I want to draw up the divorce papers immediately to set my H free from his suffering!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Pretty much same response as @Hope1964 (aka Clay Matthews :grin2: ). There are a lot of great things in my W and marriage. As much as the sex side can be very frustrating, it is not worth (in my case) throwing everything else away. Now, if things weren't so great in the other aspects of my marriage, I am sure my tune would be different.

As well, for me at least, I do believe that things will get better, we just aren't there yet.

Who knows though, maybe b/c the LD knows things are otherwise great and you don't have one foot out the door, there is less incentive on their part to make an effort (or take you for granted).

Honestly, the idea of an "at will marriage" sounds horrible to me (not a knock at you, just something


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Pretty much same response as @Hope1964 (aka Clay Matthews :grin2: ). There are a lot of great things in my W and marriage. As much as the sex side can be very frustrating, it is not worth (in my case) throwing everything else away. Now, if things weren't so great in the other aspects of my marriage, I am sure my tune would be different.
> 
> As well, for me at least, I do believe that things will get better, we just aren't there yet.
> 
> ...



It also didn't sound right to me. That's the main reason I commented whether there could be anything else that was perhaps causing marital strains (with LD being a symptom of another cause). I worry this was taken as being generally insensitive towards 'true LDs'.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Ok - I'm still hanging in here on this thread trying to keep up. For all you unsatisfied HD folk; why do you stay?
> 
> I'm the one who says we have an at will marriage - but sometimes when I read here about how awful it is to be HD and not get your needs met - I want to draw up the divorce papers immediately to set my H free from his suffering!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Obligation, the full extent of the problem was not revealed until post childbirth.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> And if instead they could reach a point where they both understood that ANY individual position is reasonable, therefore their partner's position is reasonable to them and is valid and is not something that is "wrong" with them, then possibly progress can be made.
> 
> Otherwise, if you have 2 partners who both think they are reasonable but their partner isn't, then you will see turmoil (even if just under the surface, such as in your situation) in the relationship. This kind of turmoil makes the relationship unstable at best.


My wife values my being home with her even if I'm in a completely different part of the house and have no interaction with her.

I don't understand how that can matter to her. If my wife were in a completely different part of the house and I have no interaction with her, it's no different to me than if she was there or on the moon.

One of the responsibilities in any good relationship is to understand your partner's perspective and take it into account whether or not it makes any sense to you.

To just assume that the other person should see things the way you do is asking for trouble.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I was going to comment on it before I leave.
> While i think it is healthy and important to nourish/propagate your own life/hobbies (to be independent, rather than being solely dependent on being a unit), do you not worry that, while you think you are 'ahead', she might try and seek for this connection that might be missing somewhere else/from someone else? (It seems to happen too much here on TAM for me to just let it stand and not mention anything.)
> I have to be careful not to make it sound as if anyone is at fault (because there isn't), but my feeling is there is a tipping point somewhere between the whole independence factor and when shutting off/checking out of the marriage starts to set in (which i know you are not doing but it's all about how it appears to her).
> I am sure you have tried dealing with it/approached it from all different angles, but do you know exactly what it is she _needs_ from you, in terms of it being a successful marriage, in her eyes?


In answer to your two questions:

1. Is there a tipping point?

Yes. It is a fine line between sharing less and losing her, verses sharing too much for validation, appearing weak, losing her respect, and subsequently losing her. Now, I am not suggesting that my wife would be that way per se, but speaking more generally, that is the ultimate conundrum for a nice guy.

2. Does it lead to checking out?

It can. As I've alluded to earlier, my approach is to allow her to determine the mutual level of engagement of our marriage. If she wants distance, that's fine. Distance means I get to pursue my hobbies with more time and passion. If she wants to be closer, that's fine as well. 

If she were to remain disengaged to a high degree through a three to six-month period, there would be a very real risk of me checking out to a large enough degree to be problematic.

This is the beauty of outcome independence. Either way, I will be okay.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Don't! (unless you are absolutely sure).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The important thing to remember is not only how much you love and respect her as a person, but how much you love how she treats you. 

The latter impacts how you feel when you spend time with her. That is why it is so crucial to consider.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> My wife values my being home with her even if I'm in a completely different part of the house and have no interaction with her.
> 
> I don't understand how that can matter to her. If my wife were in a completely different part of the house and I have no interaction with her, it's no different to me than if she was there or on the moon.
> 
> .


Funny, I have had the same thoughts. My W will tell me she can't wait until I get home, yet when I get home I am usually in a different part of the house with one or more our kids while she is elsewhere in the house. The idea of me physically being in the house has a lot of value to her.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> In answer to your two questions:
> 
> 1. Is there a tipping point?
> 
> ...


I get that. My only question is how did you determine that it's the distance she needs and not for example a different type of connection. That's why I asked if you spoken to her to ascertain what it is exactly that might be missing for her. (Or if she is comfortable with the distance at all.)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> The important thing to remember is not only how much you love and respect her as a person, but how much you love how she treats you.
> 
> The latter impacts how you feel when you spend time with her. That is why it is so crucial to consider.


Yes, it's strange but it moves into the background for me, once I step away from it, myself and the situation.
But granted, it hasn't been a 'crisis' type of situation for a while so I might not be in that mindset anymore.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny, I have had the same thoughts. My W will tell me she can't wait until I get home, yet when I get home I am usually in a different part of the house with one or more our kids while she is elsewhere in the house. The idea of me physically being in the house has a lot of value to her.


This sounds familiar to me too. Someone might call it 'cake eating' (a type of it). 
I think it's to do with the perception and general idea of seeing the family as a unit, rather than seeing you, as an individual. I think I made it clear a long time ago that I don't want to be seen as 'part of the family', no matter how nice it sounds to her, I want her to see me as an individual, who she's genuinely interested it. Otherwise, what's the point?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

For those of you who say you don't like the "at will" marriage - what bothers you about it?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Ok - I'm still hanging in here on this thread trying to keep up. For all you unsatisfied HD folk; why do you stay?
> 
> I'm the one who says we have an at will marriage - but sometimes when I read here about how awful it is to be HD and not get your needs met - I want to draw up the divorce papers immediately to set my H free from his suffering!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


It's up to your husband to make you aware of his needs; his deal-breakers. It's not your responsibility to intuit what he needs (although you're doing a pretty good job).

If we were married and I was HD, I'd stick around.

The big difference is that you're perfectly willing to acknowledge the problem and work to resolve it.

My beef with is with LDs who fail to acknowledge that their partner's concerns might be valid.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny, I have had the same thoughts. My W will tell me she can't wait until I get home, yet when I get home I am usually in a different part of the house with one or more our kids while she is elsewhere in the house. The idea of me physically being in the house has a lot of value to her.


I've often suspected that we're actually the same person.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> For those of you who say you don't like the "at will" marriage - what bothers you about it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I think "at will" implies that effort to improve the marriage isn't required; that compromise isn't needed; that if you don't get everything you want, it's okay to just walk.

I don't think you mean it that way, but that may explain some of the resistance to the idea.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I've often suspected that we're actually the same person.


lol


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Ok so I see how on the face of it, it may make sense to view it that way (and that HD/LD relationships have to always be juxtaposed in order to be classified as such). However does it make sense to ignore any perceived conceptions of 'norms' or 'customs', as far as a marriage (and what it represents) goes?
> For example (and I am genuinely curious), how will a sex therapist view a marriage, where the partner 'demands' to have sex at least once a month but the spouse rejects it, due to her 'need' not to have sex once a month and instead insists that for her to be happy, she would prefer to do it annually? (with a 'u')
> I mean there comes a point where we need some sort of an 'anchor' in order to judge a certain situation and give productive advice. Not to do so, just to be understanding and politically correct (because 'all points of view are valid') seems kinda...meh? (dunno the word)


I am not suggesting to ignore norms and customs. Just don't expect them to apply inside your own marriage. Your spouse isn't going to want to have sex with you more often simply because most other people have sex more often with their partner. They might be willing to consent to sex more frequently after discovering that most couples have sex far more often and therefore that the HD spouse probably can find someone else who would consent on a more frequent basis. But they aren't consenting in order to become more "normal". They are consenting because they fear if they don't then their HD partner will leave to find someone more compatible.

The sex therapist might suggest that most other couples have sex more often, so the LD should think about upping their game if they want to keep their HD spouse around. But the ST is not going to tell the LD "you are broken and abnormal, we need to fix you so you want sex as often as other people do". At least, none of the 3 or 4 licensed STs that we hired ever said that to H2. One of them said to me, at a time when we had not had sex in at least 8 months, "is sex really that important, maybe you should reduce the perceived importance of sex in your marriage to reflect that it doesn't seem to be happening much".

At the time I was angry that she dared to ask me that question. I told her she and H2 were crazy if they thought I was going to stop asking for sex or stop viewing the absence of sex as a problem in our marriage. Of course, that was then. Now I realize they were partly right. I have stopped asking for sex and our marriage is better because of it. Of course, I still view the absence of sex as a problem in our marriage. Just not a problem worth trying to solve. Much easier to take this view in my 50s than it was in my 40s. Thank goodness that testosterone poisoning eventually fades away.

In the end, neither side is morally superior. The person whose level of desire is closest to "average" is not morally superior. STs do not approach mismatch by saying "we need to get both of you closer to what is normal or typical or average". They approach mismatch by trying to get the couple sitting in the room with them closer together. If they get there by helping the HD to be happy with sex once a month, then that is a successful outcome. No better or worse than convincing a LD to be comfortable with once a week. The onus for change is not on the person whose desire is farthest from average. The onus for change is on the person least willing to divorce over the mismatch. If that is the HD, so be it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I think "at will" implies that effort to improve the marriage isn't required; that compromise isn't needed; that if you don't get everything you want, it's okay to just walk.
> 
> I don't think you mean it that way, but that may explain some of the resistance to the idea.


Agreed, it is more the way @kag123 mentioned it. Her original quote:



> As I mentioned before we have an "at-will" marriage. Divorce at any time for any reason...hand me the papers and I'll sign them.


So to me, the above reads as if there no real commitment or effort to improve. If things get tough, hit the road (to an extent, the opposite of the "for better or worse" vow). 

Not saying you want to force someone to stay in a relationship they don't want to be in. However, it brings up the question, if you go with the "at will" approach as it reads to me above, why bother even getting married?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny, I have had the same thoughts. My W will tell me she can't wait until I get home, yet when I get home I am usually in a different part of the house with one or more our kids while she is elsewhere in the house. The idea of me physically being in the house has a lot of value to her.


I'm actually kind of like your wives in this aspect. I value my "alone" time, but extended periods of time in an empty house make me anxious. 

I like hearing my wife and kids moving about the house so I know they're safe.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Your premise is wrong. It is not about what she needs. It is about what I need.

I am not distancing myself to stoke desire per se, although that sometimes happens. I am distancing myself because I will find things in my life to make it fulfilling, whether it be with her, or through my hobbies/activities.



inmyprime said:


> I get that. My only question is how did you determine that it's the distance she needs and not for example a different type of connection. That's why I asked if you spoken to her to ascertain what it is exactly that might be missing for her. (Or if she is comfortable with the distance at all.)


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

So have I.

I am only half kidding.



Buddy400 said:


> I've often suspected that we're actually the same person.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> It's not what they write in finance...
> 
> But what if the sex in the past past was great, lousy/stopped in the past and ok/good in the present? Which past is the relevant past, to predict the future?


Then you look for the conditions​ that caused the change.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kag123 said:


> :shrug:
> 
> This is where the gap widens between LD and HD.
> 
> ...


Your love bank is being filled up by the things that work for you, done by him. For you, without resentment. He just does it.

His love bank accepts currency that you do not provide all that often, nor understand, therefore his bank is not getting filled up.

Each person, as is very very common, requires a different currency to fill each other's love bank. Most couples understand this, and provide their partner with currency in their preferred form. In return, they receive currency in _their_ preferred form. Simple, if you ask me.

Where it goes off the rails is when one partner can not, or will not, provide their partner with their preferred currency. (It's almost always sex, fwiw. :| )

Many people will say "it's not that simple there, buddy!" but IMO, yes, yes it is. If having sex, or cuddling, or being thoughtful, or buying gifts, or listening is all it takes to fill your partners love bank, you do it. Those things won't kill you (technically...), and they can, and do, bring great joy to the person you love, and who loves you. And in return, they will (or should) provide you with YOUR currency. It's. That. Simple.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree. Reasonable should not create any expectation about how often one's current partner "should" have sex. As @Faithful Wife said, she isn't going to be happy having sex only twice a week even if most other couples are.


"Reasonable" establishes a population based threshold. It doesn't establish individual performance criteria. This isn't driving on the freeway.

Look at how many deviations you're off the median, and why. Then ensure your partner buys in. 

Without such information one reverts to their population stereotypes for guidance, such as it may be. 

Y'all are confusing population data vs individual data. When I clinic a new device to my study group it's exactly the same. They expect the up arrow to move up a song, down arrow down. If there's someone who prefers it the other way around we try to understand why and accommodate them. But we won't dictate to everyone how to do it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Your premise is wrong. It is not about what she needs. It is about what I need.
> 
> I am not distancing myself to stoke desire per se, although that sometimes happens. I am distancing myself because I will find things in my life to make it fulfilling, whether it be with her, or through my hobbies/activities.


I also get that. But before you can dismiss what it is she might need, would it not make more sense to first find out what it is you might be dismissing?
There is something stand-off ish about the situation. But I can see how this can come about (if she is unwilling to talk/listen at all, and i have no idea if this is the case but don't want to assume).


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Oh man @Faithful Wife and @wild jade how are you the only ones who get it?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Then you look for the conditions​ that caused the change.


Can you be sure to find it to be able to draw the right conclusions? It's too complex: it is very likely one will find an explanation that best suits one's own storyline/thinking in situations like these.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Ok - I'm still hanging in here on this thread trying to keep up. For all you unsatisfied HD folk; why do you stay?


The pay is good


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> Your love bank is being filled up by the things that work for you, done by him. For you, without resentment. He just does it.
> 
> His love bank accepts currency that you do not provide all that often, nor understand, therefore his bank is not getting filled up.
> 
> ...


In theory I agree with you - but I guess my particular beef with my marriage is that I am not as picky as he is. He can do many things, or even nothing at all, and I am fine with that. But he only accepts sex to fill his bank. For the less picky person (me) it feels frustrating. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Can you be sure to find it to be able to draw the right conclusions? It's too complex: it is very likely one will find an explanation that best suits one's own storyline/thinking in situations like these.


Let me be very frank, and this ain't the PhD psychology in me. 

If you (royal) can't figure out why, then you (royal) deserve what you (royal) get.

The standard TAM groupthink rarely looks for root causes. It's always reactionary. Without understanding why it's a lost cause.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't stop meeting her needs. I reduce it. I have a clear understanding of her needs and how much she wants/expects them to be fulfilled. It is more like she will have to make due with less of me. 

She will go through periods of neglecting my needs in the relationship and expect it to be okay because she doesn't think about it. It is some modicum of self-centeredness from being an only child, combined with some mild depression and anxiety, and a splash of hormonal fluctuations.

Often what she wants (as mentioned by other posters) is my presence without her engagement. That works for me sometimes. When it doesn't, then I go do the things I want to do.

All of that is okay. I will ask if there is anything I can do to help. Then I will go practice jiu jitsu or go to a movie with B11.



inmyprime said:


> I also get that. But before you can dismiss what it is she might need, would it not make more sense to first find out what it is you might be dismissing?
> There is something stand-off ish about the situation. But I can see how this can come about (if she is unwilling to talk/listen at all, and i have no idea if this is the case but don't want to assume).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Can you flesh this out, please?



FrenchFry said:


> Oh man @Faithful Wife and @wild jade how are you the only ones who get it?


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> And if instead they could reach a point where they both understood that ANY individual position is reasonable, therefore their partner's position is reasonable to them and is valid and is not something that is "wrong" with them, then possibly progress can be made.
> 
> Otherwise, if you have 2 partners who both think they are reasonable but their partner isn't, then you will see turmoil (even if just under the surface, such as in your situation) in the relationship. This kind of turmoil makes the relationship unstable at best.


This is why I have an at-will marriage, personally. I don't want to sit and fight and push and pull for years. I don't want to be in a right fight full of entitlements and shoulds and shouldn'ts. If I'm making you miserable, go. Good luck. If I'm not, wonderful. Let's stay.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Steve1000 said:


> I think it is commendable that you openly discuss your dilemma. In my experience, most people who don't get much out of sex have no interest to even think about the issue. I also think it's very nice that you still understand and want your partner to experience a fulfilling sex life. Since it seems that you would like to know what having a strong libido is like, I assume that you have already tried many things including being checked out to see if there is a hormonal imbalance.


I have thought a lot, over the years, about what could possibly be wrong with me, and why I am the way I am. Mostly I've felt like a freak. I can't help but compare my experience with that of my peers, from teenage years on up, and with the portrayals of sex in literature, cinema, art, and advertising. But I do know from seeking information online that there are a considerable number of people out there like me.

My marriage is over, but I did do my best to give my husband a fulfilling sex life, as I did with boyfriends who preceded him. I wasn't blind to the way most men seem to need sex. I still don't understand why my marriage went south, and I do wonder if sex had anything to do with it. My husband never complained, but who knows what he may have been thinking secretly? That's a big part of what I'm seeking to discover here.

You assume correctly. I investigated the issue for years with doctors, labwork, therapists, and psychiatrists. I've had full bloodwork done many times looking for hormone imbalances and other disorders. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with me medically. So no help there.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I agree with this to a point.

I see a large space in between misery and joy. How do you see that space?



FrenchFry said:


> This is why I have an at-will marriage, personally. I don't want to sit and fight and push and pull for years. I don't want to be in a right fight full of entitlements and shoulds and shouldn'ts. If I'm making you miserable, go. Good luck. If I'm not, wonderful. Let's stay.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> This is why I have an at-will marriage, personally. I don't want to sit and fight and push and pull for years. I don't want to be in a right fight full of entitlements and shoulds and shouldn'ts. If I'm making you miserable, go. Good luck. If I'm not, wonderful. Let's stay.


Yes. You get it. 


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> But he only accepts sex to fill his bank.


One can't "decide" what fills their bank.

It either fills their bank or it doesn't.

With most men, it's sex.

With most women, it's more complicated


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> One can't "decide" what fills their bank.
> 
> It either fills their bank or it doesn't.
> 
> ...


I'd argue that I have made a conscious decision to accept his payments into my bank based on the intent with which they are given, rather than what currency he is using. If he does something that was clearly only for me, to attempt to bring me happiness, that fills my bank. Doesn't really matter what it was. 

I've since learned most people do not feel the same way. Especially in the department of sex. Doing it for your partners benefit only seems to not have the desired effect of making them feel loved. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Let me be very frank, and this ain't the PhD psychology in me.
> 
> If you (royal) can't figure out why, then you (royal) deserve what you (royal) get.
> 
> The standard TAM groupthink rarely looks for root causes. It's always reactionary. Without understanding why it's a lost cause.


No, I generally agree it's a good idea to try and look for root causes. It's just that I noticed that once you start looking where the roots might be going, you can end up pretty much anywhere. There isn't so much of an 'objective' right or wrong or a definitive reason why this or that, it seems to be more about changing people's mindset (or tweaking it) so that they might be willing to meet their spouse somewhere along the way. 
Establishing a valid root cause for yourself (the royal kind) why a situation is the way it is will only make you feel less guilty for having a reason not to compromise, unfortunately.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I'd argue that I have made a conscious decision to accept his payments into my bank based on the intent with which they are given, rather than what currency he is using. If he does something that was clearly only for me, to attempt to bring me happiness, that fills my bank. Doesn't really matter what it was.
> 
> I've since learned most people do not feel the same way. Especially in the department of sex. Doing it for your partners benefit only seems to not have the desired effect of making them feel loved.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Impressive. I'm a very rational person. Almost every action of mine is filtered through my consciousness and I couldn't do this.

I'm "Words of Admiration". If my wife performed "Acts of Service" as a way of showing me that she loved me, I could acknowledge that her intent was to show me she loved me and appreciate it.

I'd understand, but it wouldn't be enough and my "love tank" would still be empty.

The truth is that I have no need for Acts of Service and a large need of Words of Admiration.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I suppose everyone has an at-will marriage when you come right down to it. No one is obligated to stay married unless they put that obligation on themselves. Your partner can't force you to stay married unless they lock you up, which is a whole nother ball game. I think what people argue about is what exactly it looks like when it's time to get out. Just saying "Go if I make you unhappy" is far too broad a statement to be taken at face value, unless you truly don't care whether what you do causes unhappiness in the other person.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> Can you flesh this out, please?





> I learn that my body creates feelings and emotions which to me seem one way, and that others' bodies create different feelings and emotions than mine. Which means there is no one truth. Our personal body chemistry (and life experiences) create how we see the world and interpret it. We can only see our own interpretation of the world directly, but with knowledge and empathy for everyone else on the sexuality spectrum, we can also understand those who are different from us do not have a less valid view of the world.


That's it imo. What happens here is that one has to justify, over and over and over that they feel different. I hear "I feel different," or the actions tell me "I feel different," and now all I can do is accommodate that or not. Should doesn't change feelings, experiences. Doesn't seem to change actions. Just is.




> I see a large space in between misery and joy. How do you see that space?


Small. But I have an extremely large capacity for joy.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> I suppose everyone has an at-will marriage when you come right down to it. No one is obligated to stay married unless they put that obligation on themselves. Your partner can't force you to stay married unless they lock you up, which is a whole nother ball game. I think what people argue about is what exactly it looks like when it's time to get out. Just saying "Go if I make you unhappy" is far too broad a statement to be taken at face value, unless you truly don't care whether what you do causes unhappiness in the other person.


What if you care but cannot change it?

Like, I see people posting very clearly what makes them unhappy. The theme on this thread seems to be "well, they should see that they are making me unhappy and should change to not do that."

Not for me. Go if I make you unhappy is an acknowledgement of differences that cause too much strife. If the source of your unhappiness is me, do not make me happy by staying so that you suffer.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> What if you care but cannot change it?
> 
> Like, I see people posting very clearly what makes them unhappy. The theme on this thread seems to be "well, they should see that they are making me unhappy and should change to not do that and that this is what love is"
> 
> This is not love to me.


Right. And then we hear things like "well read GettingIt's story....SHE changed and worked it out with her H so my spouse (or yours, or whoever the LD under the microscope is) so OBVIOUSLY every LD should do what she did".

As I tried to point out before....it matters zilch what any other person was able to do. Their reasons for being LD, their reasons for changing, their reasons for following through, are not the same as any other specific LD person's.

Then there's a big pouty fest about "what love is" and that ONLY if the LD spouse does what GettingIt did can they be considered "loving" their spouse.

This is nonsense and is just another way to stay the victim instead of truly accepting how your spouse is.

I do not mean that people shouldn't try. But if you've tried all you can think of and there is no change, then accept it or get out.

Maybe if you accept it and try again at another time, some change will occur. But to sit in misery claiming victim status, meanwhile making the LD your perpetrator, is totally unproductive and unempathetic. Many HD's do not consider their LD's position to be "real" at all....they consider there is something wrong with the LD, but they themselves? Nothing wrong with them, they are in the right, and the LD *SHOULD* do what GettingIt did, or else they don't love you.

That's not love to me either.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. And then we hear things like "well read GettingIt's story....SHE changed and worked it out with her H so my spouse (or yours, or whoever the LD under the microscope is) so OBVIOUSLY every LD should do what she did".
> 
> As I tried to point out before....it matters zilch what any other person was able to do. Their reasons for being LD, their reasons for changing, their reasons for following through, are not the same as any other specific LD person's.
> 
> ...


Holy bananas, thank you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

From another thread on TAM:

"The term LD should be outlawed on TAM. "Abnormal" is the word that should be used."

This is the LD demonization that I mentioned before. Things like this are spouted off all the time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Your love bank is being filled up by the things that work for you, done by him. For you, without resentment. He just does it.
> 
> His love bank accepts currency that you do not provide all that often, nor understand, therefore his bank is not getting filled up.
> 
> ...


How does one account for inflation with a love bank like that? :wink2:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> What if you care but cannot change it?
> 
> Like, I see people posting very clearly what makes them unhappy. The theme on this thread seems to be "well, they should see that they are making me unhappy and should change to not do that."
> 
> Not for me. Go if I make you unhappy is an acknowledgement of differences that cause too much strife. If the source of your unhappiness is me, do not make me happy by staying so that you suffer.


The problem is that there's a world of difference between:

W: "Could you try not to leave your underwear on the floor?"

H: "If the source of your unhappiness is me, do not make me happy by staying so that you suffer."

And

H: "I can only be sexually satisfied if you really enjoy dressing up like an prairie dog while I have anal sex with you twice a day"

W: "If the source of your unhappiness is me, do not make me happy by staying so that you suffer."


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I do not mean that people shouldn't try. But if you've tried all you can think of and there is no change, then accept it or get out.


"If you've tried all you can think of"

That's the trick, knowing when you've done all you could and that any further effort is fruitless.

When you can identify that you've reached that point, then it's time to either stop whining or leave.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> The problem is that there's a world of difference between:
> 
> W: "Could you try not to leave your underwear on the floor?"
> 
> ...


Eh. I can see the difference, but all of the seeing and reason and logic in the world do not make a damn difference in the world of feelings and I have had very little personal success in pointing a rational finger at feelings and going "THOSE ARE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD CHANGE."


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Hope1964 said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose everyone has an at-will marriage when you come right down to it. No one is obligated to stay married unless they put that obligation on themselves. Your partner can't force you to stay married unless they lock you up, which is a whole nother ball game. I think what people argue about is what exactly it looks like when it's time to get out. Just saying "Go if I make you unhappy" is far too broad a statement to be taken at face value, unless you truly don't care whether what you do causes unhappiness in the other person.
> ...


So you're saying that my husband and Alex's wife CAN'T change the way they are? I don't agree. I also don't agree that I should just tell my husband that he can't make me happy without trying different things to let him try to fix it.

I also think that people's interpretation of "too much strife" is going to differ. Vastly.



Faithful Wife said:


> Right. And then we hear things like "well read GettingIt's story....SHE changed and worked it out with her H so my spouse (or yours, or whoever the LD under the microscope is) so OBVIOUSLY every LD should do what she did".
> 
> As I tried to point out before....it matters zilch what any other person was able to do. Their reasons for being LD, their reasons for changing, their reasons for following through, are not the same as any other specific LD person's.
> 
> ...


Both alex and I have asserted MANY MANY TIMES here on this very thread that neither of us are willing to give up, because for the most part, the Most part by far, of our marriages are great. Neither of us is 'sitting in misery'. I don't even know who 'getting it' is. And we'v also both asserted that if there's no change, we're more than willing to accept that. Not all HD's should be painted with the same brush here.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> In theory I agree with you - but I guess my particular beef with my marriage is that I am not as picky as he is. He can do many things, or even nothing at all, and I am fine with that. *But he only accepts sex to fill his bank.* For the less picky person (me) it feels frustrating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


But this might be a misunderstanding. Sex might be one of the 'currencies' but not necessarily the only one. It's just that it is an important currency for him and if it's missing or is infrequent then that frustration perhaps temporarily eclipses other currencies. It doesn't mean he doesn't value other things you do for him. Well that's the case with me anyway.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> I'd argue that I have made a conscious decision to accept his payments into my bank based on the intent with which they are given, rather than what currency he is using. If he does something that was clearly only for me, to attempt to bring me happiness, that fills my bank. Doesn't really matter what it was.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


But how does it make sense if it is something you would not enjoy? If he offered you, I dunno, oral sex which is clearly just for you, but you just told him that you don't feel like doing anything sexual, how would that fill your bank?
Getting the 'currency' right is all that matters. The intent: you will be assigning it to him and so it will be subjective. He may intent something totally different from what you think his intent might have been


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

2020hindsight said:


> I have thought a lot, over the years, about what could possibly be wrong with me, and why I am the way I am. Mostly I've felt like a freak. I can't help but compare my experience with that of my peers, from teenage years on up, and with the portrayals of sex in literature, cinema, art, and advertising. But I do know from seeking information online that there are a considerable number of people out there like me.
> 
> My marriage is over, but I did do my best to give my husband a fulfilling sex life, as I did with boyfriends who preceded him. I wasn't blind to the way most men seem to need sex. I still don't understand why my marriage went south, and I do wonder if sex had anything to do with it. My husband never complained, but who knows what he may have been thinking secretly? That's a big part of what I'm seeking to discover here.
> 
> You assume correctly. I investigated the issue for years with doctors, labwork, therapists, and psychiatrists. I've had full bloodwork done many times looking for hormone imbalances and other disorders. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with me medically. So no help there.


You're definitely not a freak. One nice thing about the internet is that we all have been able to learn that there are others that share our characteristics whether positive or negative. Like I mentioned earlier, what makes you rare is that you still have a good and open attitude about this issue. I say good because you are still willing to think about and discuss this issue. 

If your husband ended the marriage, what reason did he give you?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> The only "truisms" that I've personally "slung around TAM" are that women's sexuality is more complex that men's and that women, more often than men, aren't rationally aware of of how their sexuality works.
> 
> Is that what you are referring to as my "preexisting biases"?
> 
> Do you have some specific response to those theories? Anything in the scientific literature you could point to to counter them?


Yes, and as I said in my last post: I offered up a book that you might find interesting.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

kag123 said:


> I understand. I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. I just grabbed your post bc it illustrated a point- but I didn't mean that I thought you were that way. And I believe you in the female being disappointed. It isn't so much gender specific- I was just trying to give my POV as a hetero woman being approached by men.


No ruffled feathers at all. I don't know the percentage, but there definitely are some men who want a stable relationship. Value yourself, be yourself, and you might find a man who both lusts after you and very much loves you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I don't stop meeting her needs. I reduce it. I have a clear understanding of her needs and how much she wants/expects them to be fulfilled. It is more like she will have to make due with less of me.
> 
> She will go through periods of neglecting my needs in the relationship and expect it to be okay because she doesn't think about it. It is some modicum of self-centeredness from being an only child, combined with some mild depression and anxiety, and a splash of hormonal fluctuations.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's the response I was looking for. Without context, it might appear that you put your needs without any regard towards her needs. It's clearly not the case. At least not from the way you have described it here. Has she noticed what you are doing and why? Has it affected her behaviour or the relationship in a positive way?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> This is why I have an at-will marriage, personally. I don't want to sit and fight and push and pull for years. I don't want to be in a right fight full of entitlements and shoulds and shouldn'ts. If I'm making you miserable, go. Good luck. If I'm not, wonderful. Let's stay.


Are you sure you are not confusing an at will marriage with an ultimatum? Maybe it's supposed to be the same thing, I am not sure anymore...
I think there's another option that tends to generally prove more successful: 'lets work on it' - both parties willing. Some will work, some will walk and everyone's tolerance and engagement level will be different and dictate a successful or less successful outcome. I think that's the major difference. It has less to do with the whole HD/LD thing or what the problem might actually be (though obviously the closer compatibility to begin with, the better).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

2020hindsight said:


> I have thought a lot, over the years, about what could possibly be wrong with me, and why I am the way I am. Mostly I've felt like a freak. I can't help but compare my experience with that of my peers, from teenage years on up, and with the portrayals of sex in literature, cinema, art, and advertising. But I do know from seeking information online that there are a considerable number of people out there like me.
> 
> My marriage is over, but I did do my best to give my husband a fulfilling sex life, as I did with boyfriends who preceded him. I wasn't blind to the way most men seem to need sex. I still don't understand why my marriage went south, and I do wonder if sex had anything to do with it. My husband never complained, but who knows what he may have been thinking secretly? That's a big part of what I'm seeking to discover here.
> 
> You assume correctly. I investigated the issue for years with doctors, labwork, therapists, and psychiatrists. I've had full bloodwork done many times looking for hormone imbalances and other disorders. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with me medically. So no help there.


I assume your husband cheated? 
The probability is very small that it had anything to do with you (especially if he never complained, not that it would have been ok to cheat if he did complain). Some guys cheat. You are not to blame for his actions.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@kag123: But he only accepts sex to fill his bank.

I think it is slightly more complex than this. And I hate admitting that, because I hate admitting that HD sexuality is complex. But here goes.

There are 2 or 3 factors at work here. First, he has a minimum need for sex. When sex falls below the minimum, he feels pain equal to 10,000 love units. At that point, there aren't enough hours in the day or things you can do to get him out of the red - except have enough sex with him to get rid of that -10,000. So yes, while you are below the minimum, sex is the only thing that has a practical impact on his love bank.

Once you get him to "enough" sex, you might well find there are other things he values. The problem is, many men have never gotten to "enough" on a consistent basis. So they are always "hungry". So they are always looking for more sex. As @Faithful Wife often says, and as @MEM2020 has related, most men have never been the LD in a major way. Men who do get challenged to move beyond their comfort zone tend to have a major change in their perspective. They take on typical LD characteristics. And they have a greater appreciation for the impact of pressure on the LD.

Instead of trying to give your H sex 3 or 4 times a week for a couple of weeks and then reverting back to your usual pace, I would steal a page from M2's book and demand your H have sex with you 3 or 4 times a day for several days. Push him to where he is having difficulty achieving and maintaining an erection and then complain that he isn't getting you off. Wear him down to where he is too exhausted to get up for work in the morning. Get him to see what it feels like to be asked to have sex when you really really don't want to be asked for a while. That is your best chance to change his perspective. It might get him to back off his demands not from resignation but from love and appreciation of the impact his demands have on you.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> So you're saying that my husband and Alex's wife CAN'T change the way they are? I don't agree. I also don't agree that I should just tell my husband that he can't make me happy without trying different things to let him try to fix it.
> 
> I also think that people's interpretation of "too much strife" is going to differ. Vastly.
> 
> ...


Holy bananas, thank you!

:wink2:


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But how does it make sense if it is something you would not enjoy? If he offered you, I dunno, oral sex which is clearly just for you, but you just told him that you don't feel like doing anything sexual, how would that fill your bank?
> Getting the 'currency' right is all that matters. The intent: you will be assigning it to him and so it will be subjective. He may intent something totally different from what you think his intent might have been


I think if you know someone intimately as you do in marriage, you can pretty much figure out their intent for most interactions. 

Sometimes he does offer me oral sex and I don't want it. I appreciate the gesture and feel grateful that he offered. Same as anything else he does for me or says to me that I may not have necessarily wanted. I am happy because he thought of me. For me the appreciation that comes from knowing he is thinking of me is enough. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You do realize that the risks for psych ED if he follows the advise above are a bit too much? 

Let's say he realizes he can't do 3x a day. How about getting the idea he can't do it at all if he's psyched up about the 3x a day failure?

Just a thought.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> So you're saying that my husband and Alex's wife CAN'T change the way they are? I don't agree.


Not quite. What I see is that sometimes spouses change. They change for the better, for the worse. I don't think we have a whole bunch of influence over this change and since I don't love unconditionally, I need to evaluate what I can handle right in front of me, weigh it out and stay or go.

My husband has changed. I've changed. Each change is kinda painful but over time I've come to accept "this is who he is," and the tension fades. One day, I may change or he may change to a person I don't like. My answer to that is no not stay if I cannot accept it.




Hope1964 said:


> *I also don't agree that I should just tell my husband that he can't make me happy without trying different things to let him try to fix it.*


Absolutely. But, I think people do what they want to do, ultimately. I can tell my husband 1000 times to not fart around me. He's going to do it, regardless. Now, I find (quite a bit) of happiness in the farts. If I didn't, I should go.



> Both alex and I have asserted MANY MANY TIMES here on this very thread that neither of us are willing to give up, because for the most part, the Most part by far, of our marriages are great. Neither of us is 'sitting in misery'. I don't even know who 'getting it' is. And we'v also both asserted that if there's no change, we're more than willing to accept that. Not all HD's should be painted with the same brush here.


I don't think you are sitting in misery. I do think you have a much higher tolerance than I have for this kind of stuff. That is probably what Farside is saying, actually.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> So you're saying that my husband and Alex's wife CAN'T change the way they are? I don't agree.


You could change too. It's just that easy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. And then we hear things like "well read GettingIt's story....SHE changed and worked it out with her H so my spouse (or yours, or whoever the LD under the microscope is) *so OBVIOUSLY every LD should do what she did*".


Nope, the last bit is your own twist on why I brought up GettingIt's story. I brought her story up for the same reason you brought up stories about the sufferings of LDs: to show that there are *all kinds of stories.* 



Faithful Wife said:


> As I tried to point out before....it matters zilch what any other person was able to do. Their reasons for being LD, their reasons for changing, their reasons for following through, are not the same as any other specific LD person's.


And nobody else has claimed otherwise.



Faithful Wife said:


> Then there's a big pouty fest about "what love is" and that ONLY if the LD spouse does what GettingIt did can they be considered "loving" their spouse.
> 
> This is nonsense and is just another way to stay the victim instead of truly accepting how your spouse is.


Again, absolute non sense. I asked you a question (and I quote): "what, in your eyes, is the expression of love and whether sex features anywhere on the list at all?" 

I am still wondering (with a pouty face) what your answer is.



Faithful Wife said:


> I do not mean that people shouldn't try.


But that's exactly what you mean when you write: "accept it, or end it".

In fact in none of the above posts do you give compromise any credence (which is all I was talking about in my posts). In fact you claim, perversely, that proposing compromise is a form of intolerance, when you write this in the context:

_"It doesn't matter what terms any individual chooses to accept it are, or not accept it. Compromise in itself is not acceptable to some."_

which makes absolutely no sense because there are *TWO* people involved in any relationship (unless the relationship is with Vinnydee) and for it to work (and the premise here is that we are trying to help people with their relationships), it will *always* require some level of compromise, regardless whether their view of the world is 'their truth' or not.




Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe if you accept it and try again at another time, some change will occur. But to sit in misery claiming victim status, meanwhile making the LD your perpetrator, is totally unproductive and unempathetic. Many HD's do not consider their LD's position to be "real" at all....they consider there is something wrong with the LD, but they themselves? Nothing wrong with them, they are in the right, and the LD *SHOULD* do what GettingIt did, or else they don't love you.
> 
> That's not love to me either.


What *is* love to you? (this wasn't under my original discussion but as you brought it up, I would be interested to hear). Telling your spouse to ****** off when they ask you to meet them in the middle is love?

I don't know what you mean by 'LDs positions not being real'. Who has claimed this? This was also not under the discussion: if a partner is LD in relation to their spouse then of course they are LD, nobody (apart from you) is arguing this. 

But you have not answered my other question: whether you consider the suffering of an HD spouse exactly symmetrical to that of an LD spouse. And if yes, why.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am not suggesting to ignore norms and customs. Just don't expect them to apply inside your own marriage. Your spouse isn't going to want to have sex with you more often simply because most other people have sex more often with their partner. They might be willing to consent to sex more frequently after discovering that most couples have sex far more often and therefore that the HD spouse probably can find someone else who would consent on a more frequent basis. But they aren't consenting in order to become more "normal". They are consenting because they fear if they don't then their HD partner will leave to find someone more compatible.
> 
> The sex therapist might suggest that most other couples have sex more often, so the LD should think about upping their game if they want to keep their HD spouse around. But the ST is not going to tell the LD "you are broken and abnormal, we need to fix you so you want sex as often as other people do". At least, none of the 3 or 4 licensed STs that we hired ever said that to H2. One of them said to me, at a time when we had not had sex in at least 8 months, "is sex really that important, maybe you should reduce the perceived importance of sex in your marriage to reflect that it doesn't seem to be happening much".
> 
> ...



There's a lot of talk on this thread about averages and "normal", like the two things are the same. But one is just a descriptive statistic. A mean, a median, or a mode, and the other is full of all sorts of prescriptions, "shoulds", "oughts". "musts".

There are lots of very different scenarios that might lead to an "average" sexual frequency of 2x per week. It could mean that "most" couples have this level of frequency. It could mean that there are some people who have sex 18x a day and others just once a year, and these two very different groups balance each other out. So that made me curious. When we say "average" 2x per week, what are we saying? 

So I asked Google, and came up with this site. Sex Question Friday: How Often Do Married Couples Have Sex? ? Sex And Psychology

Apparently, it is simply not the case that most people have sex 2-3 x a week. Somewhere around a third to a half have this much sex or more -- and anywhere from half to 2/3 have it less than this. 

Looking at these charts, the most common frequency is somewhere between weekly and a few times / week. But looking at the distributions, I think they all might be described as "normal". Certainly, I can't see any prescriptive oughts in there that would make any particular individual be compelled to fit into one category or another. (Although one does wonder what happened to all those 4x a week of more people between the ages of 60-69)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> I think if you know someone intimately as you do in marriage, you can pretty much figure out their intent for most interactions.
> 
> Sometimes he does offer me oral sex and I don't want it. I appreciate the gesture and feel grateful that he offered. Same as anything else he does for me or says to me that I may not have necessarily wanted. I am happy because he thought of me. For me the appreciation that comes from knowing he is thinking of me is enough.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Then you are doing better than my wife :wink2: 
She used to roll her eyes and say "you are only offering because you will want something in return" [/no pouty face]
She was probably right half of the time.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> I would steal a page from M2's book and demand your H have sex with you 3 or 4 times a day for several days. Push him to where he is having difficulty achieving and maintaining an erection and then complain that he isn't getting you off. Wear him down to where he is too exhausted to get up for work in the morning. Get him to see what it feels like to be asked to have sex when you really really don't want to be asked for a while. That is your best chance to change his perspective. It might get him to back off his demands not from resignation but from love and appreciation of the impact his demands have on you.


Hate to say this--it works.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But you have not answered my other question: whether you consider the suffering of an HD spouse exactly symmetrical to that of an LD spouse. And if yes, why.


After going round like this with you several times already, on this post and previous ones, I understand that no matter what I write, you will refuse to understand my meaning of it, project what you think I thought, and then you will refuse to understand any thing I'm trying to re-explain my position on. It is pointless. Sorry, I just don't think you want to understand what I'm saying so there's really no point in answering any of your questions. Peace.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Both alex and I have asserted MANY MANY TIMES here on this very thread that neither of us are willing to give up, because for the most part, the Most part by far, of our marriages are great. Neither of us is 'sitting in misery'. I don't even know who 'getting it' is. And we'v also both asserted that if there's no change, we're more than willing to accept that. Not all HD's should be painted with the same brush here.


I did not specifically point out either you or Alex, and I fully understand your positions, and never took issue with it.

Sorry if you didn't like what I wrote...but don't put words in my mouth.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> From another thread on TAM:
> 
> "The term LD should be outlawed on TAM. "Abnormal" is the word that should be used."
> 
> This is the LD demonization that I mentioned before. Things like this are spouted off all the time.


Ok, but what does it have to do with this thread?

Do you mind linking to the thread? I am curious in what context it was used. I tried googling the sentence but no results.

If it's talking about statistics, then I can see how 'abnormal' could be a valid description of something. 
One doesn't need to assign emotions to statistics...


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Are you sure you are not confusing an at will marriage with an ultimatum? Maybe it's supposed to be the same thing, I am not sure anymore...
> I think there's another option that tends to generally prove more successful: 'lets work on it' - both parties willing. Some will work, some will walk and everyone's tolerance and engagement level will be different and dictate a successful or less successful outcome. I think that's the major difference. It has less to do with the whole HD/LD thing or what the problem might actually be (though obviously the closer compatibility to begin with, the better).


Here is the thing: what is "let's work on it?"

I would say "I've worked on it. Yes, I usually don't want sex during the week, but a couple times on the weekend is okay."

Is the answer "Let's work on it some more?" This is the vortex that I am trying to avoid. IMO, in my marriage I have "worked on it." This in no way does not stop my husband from one day posting here "FrenchFry only wants sex on the weekends and I'm really sick of being controlled in that manner."

The question for me becomes who makes the next move and what should that be? The message I get here is that I, as the LD should actually change myself some more in some way so that my husband's needs are better fulfilled and that it's not that much suffering to do so. Also, I am selfish if I don't. Also, compromise some more because if you don't, you aren't showing love in the correct manner.

KWIM? At what point as the LD do I GET TO say "I can't, sorry." What reason would ever be valid enough to say "I've really done all I can here?"

The only reason I have seen that would be accepted without question is a medical reason. Which is why you get the "I'm tired, I have a headache," because the "I don't want to," will never be valid despite it being the real reason.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> Here is the thing: what is "let's work on it?"
> 
> I would say "I've worked on it. Yes, I usually don't want sex during the week, but a couple times on the weekend is okay."
> 
> ...


Does Alexm know his wife is posting? 

Well no, obviously if you compromised already to a reasonable degree (whatever that might be), I don't think anyone is suggesting to keep bending the pole until it breaks. I think the discussion on the last few pages was more about LD spouses who can compromise, but don't. ("Because LDs are real :scratchhead: "

The thing is, Alexm doesn't know whether his wife is compromising or not (correct me if I am wrong). His opening post talks about having sex on her terms and on her schedule (to which I said that if it meets his frequency and the sex is good, then take it, but that's a different story). Maybe there is some room for compromise, maybe not, but his wife is the only person who will have the answer to this question.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Here is the thing: what is "let's work on it?"
> 
> I would say "I've worked on it. Yes, I usually don't want sex during the week, but a couple times on the weekend is okay."
> 
> ...


So - this is a perfect example of "at will" marriage. 

I have my lines in the sand and so does my H. Both of us will compromise to make the other person happy and both of us genuinely want the other to be happy- but we have a line where the distress it would cause US to make our spouse happy is greater than the joy our spouse would receive from the compromise. And that's where the line in the sand is.

We both say, you want to go past that line? Well I'm sorry, it can't be with me. If that's a deal breaker for you, I will be sad to see you go but I will not hold you back from leaving. That's what I mean by "hand me those divorce papers and I will sign them". 

It's not to dismiss that I made a commitment to my spouse by being married, it's admitting that I am aware I cannot meet all of his needs and that there may be a time in the future when he decides that's a big enough deal to divorce over. I will bend and do my best, but I will not sacrifice myself entirely at his altar to please him. Nor do I expect him to do that for me. 

ETA: Ideally, you would have picked a spouse that you had enough common needs with that you wouldn't get to the point of having to sacrifice yourself to make them happy. But people change over the years and sometimes a gap appears and widens that wasn't there before. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> After going round like this with you several times already, on this post and previous ones, I understand that no matter what I write, you will refuse to understand my meaning of it, project what you think I thought, and then you will refuse to understand any thing I'm trying to re-explain my position on. It is pointless. Sorry, I just don't think you want to understand what I'm saying so there's really no point in answering any of your questions. Peace.


Sure, it's your right to dodge pertinent questions.

But just to be clear: I don't need to re-explain you, it's enough to quote you. Not the same courtesy that is always extended to me.

Peace too.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> So you're saying that my husband and Alex's wife CAN'T change the way they are? I don't agree. I also don't agree that I should just tell my husband that he can't make me happy without trying different things to let him try to fix it.
> 
> I also think that people's interpretation of "too much strife" is going to differ. Vastly.
> 
> ...


The key here as well, just because people are here venting does not mean they are sitting in a big pool of misery. Heck, I thought that was part of the reason for this thread, to give Alex a chance to talk things out, get feedback from those who have gone through or are going through similar situations.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not a matter of prescriptive information, but rather, descriptive information.

Nobody goes on a date wearing their 1x a month earings or tie clips.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> @kag123:
> 
> Instead of trying to give your H sex 3 or 4 times a week for a couple of weeks and then reverting back to your usual pace, I would steal a page from M2's book and demand your H have sex with you 3 or 4 times a day for several days. Push him to where he is having difficulty achieving and maintaining an erection and then complain that he isn't getting you off. Wear him down to where he is too exhausted to get up for work in the morning. Get him to see what it feels like to be asked to have sex when you really really don't want to be asked for a while. That is your best chance to change his perspective. It might get him to back off his demands not from resignation but from love and appreciation of the impact his demands have on you.


Yes, it didn't work with me. The powerplay was too exciting...


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Interesting study. Assuming it is accurate, if I had seen that 22 years ago I would have never gotten married. :surprise:





wild jade said:


> There's a lot of talk on this thread about averages and "normal", like the two things are the same. But one is just a descriptive statistic. A mean, a median, or a mode, and the other is full of all sorts of prescriptions, "shoulds", "oughts". "musts".
> 
> There are lots of very different scenarios that might lead to an "average" sexual frequency of 2x per week. It could mean that "most" couples have this level of frequency. It could mean that there are some people who have sex 18x a day and others just once a year, and these two very different groups balance each other out. So that made me curious. When we say "average" 2x per week, what are we saying?
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> There's a lot of talk on this thread about averages and "normal", like the two things are the same. But one is just a descriptive statistic. A mean, a median, or a mode, and the other is full of all sorts of prescriptions, "shoulds", "oughts". "musts".
> 
> There are lots of very different scenarios that might lead to an "average" sexual frequency of 2x per week. It could mean that "most" couples have this level of frequency. It could mean that there are some people who have sex 18x a day and others just once a year, and these two very different groups balance each other out. So that made me curious. When we say "average" 2x per week, what are we saying?
> 
> ...


"Penile-Vaginal-Intercourse"...Is it possible some participants perhaps did not know what it meant? (and thought perhaps it was some kind of STD).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Average vs. median can skew the numbers a lot. Its quite possible for the average married couple to have sex 2-3x/week, but the median to be less than once a week.

I don't know how big an effect only counting PIV is. To some people that is "sex", for others, lots of other things count. We engage in some sexual activity roughly every other week, but no PIV in a year or more. 



wild jade said:


> There's a lot of talk on this thread about averages and "normal", like the two things are the same. But one is just a descriptive statistic. A mean, a median, or a mode, and the other is full of all sorts of prescriptions, "shoulds", "oughts". "musts".
> 
> There are lots of very different scenarios that might lead to an "average" sexual frequency of 2x per week. It could mean that "most" couples have this level of frequency. It could mean that there are some people who have sex 18x a day and others just once a year, and these two very different groups balance each other out. So that made me curious. When we say "average" 2x per week, what are we saying?
> 
> ...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Average vs. median can skew the numbers a lot. Its quite possible for the average married couple to have sex 2-3x/week, but the median to be less than once a week.
> 
> I don't know how big an effect only counting PIV is. To some people that is "sex", for others, lots of other things count. We engage in some sexual activity roughly every other week, but no PIV in a year or more.


Ya, some of the other results from that Google search talked about how difficult it was to determine average frequencies because of the all the different types of sex acts, and whether or not people might classify that as "having sex".

Almost all of them, though, pointed out that average doesn't necessarily imply desirability or even normality.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> The key here as well, just because people are here venting does not mean they are sitting in a big pool of misery. Heck, I thought that was part of the reason for this thread, to give Alex a chance to talk things out, get feedback from those who have gone through or are going through similar situations.


I never said or thought that "all HD's" are sitting in a big pool of misery.

Though many are, but many are quite content, many are only sometimes bothered. Never said otherwise and no reason to think that's what I think (if you meant me in this quote). In your case in particular, from what I've gathered from your recent threads, you are pretty zen about your sitch.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The problem is that its possible to view the same events as having different causes. There is often a "reasonable" and a "selfish" explanation.

The non-selfish model I have for my wife is that sometimes she wants sex - but that it has to be a very specific set of things, any sexual activity outside of that, or at any different time is very unpleasant for her. 


I think though that sex just not being important to her, and her believing its not important to anyone else is a better model: A couple of weeks ago, she indicated she wanted sex that evening - wore skimpy lingerie, and told me she wanted to get to bed early for [sex]. Then she found an old board game that she had played as a kid and wanted to play a few rounds. Somehow that made it too late for sex. 

Another day on vacation recently, she wanted to get back to the hotel and maybe have sex. Once we got there, she was feeling tired - but not too tired to decide that she wanted to walk a mile in the rain to a blues concert late that evening. 

She always reminds me to pack sex toys when we go on vacation, but I think we've had sex twice in the last year (about 8 weeks of travels) on vacation. 

I can't remember the last time we had sex when I tried to initiate and its extremely rare for her to do anything I ask for in bed - even if its something she has seemed to enjoy before.

Clearly there is an element of control here - she has to have things her way. She is like this in other ways as well, but generally they don't matter - I really am happy with any of a variety of places to get dinner or go on vacation, or colors to paint the living room. 










Faithful Wife said:


> Believing LD's are "selfish" is a common theme among the HD's at TAM. And because to an HD, just "putting out" more shouldn't seem like such a big thing to do, the HD's then project upon the LD's that there is something wrong with them, they are selfish, they don't love the HD's as much as the HD's love the LD's, and on and on and on with the projections.
> 
> Whereas, if the HD was actually empathetic and informed about the validity of every individual person's experience, they could see how much their LD actually HAS ALREADY tried to bend (in most cases) and that they found that they simply cannot bend more. Just as the HD will not bend more, either. The HD may accept less sex than they want, but they will not stop wanting more. They can't. And the LD can't stop wanting whatever their acceptable amount is, either.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Clearly there is an element of control here - she has to have things her way. She is like this in other ways as well, but generally they don't matter - I really am happy with any of a variety of places to get dinner or go on vacation, or colors to paint the living room.


There is also an element of your passivity here. You clearly refuse to point out when she repeatedly says "let's get to bed early so we can have sex" and then stays up late doing something else. You are the one playing the board game with her, right? So why didn't you stop in the middle of it and say "no, this will make it too late for sex, and I'd rather have sex, let's go". For some reason this type of "control" you might exhibit is something you don't want to do. It doesn't come natural to you or whatever reason.

I understand she is controlling in general and believe you. But what you are bringing to the table not only enables what she's bringing, it also seems to be in the same proportion to what she is bringing.

So her need for control = your need to be passive.

I am not suggesting you stop being passive, and I'm sure you've tried that before. I'm just pointing out that you are both contributing to your sexual dynamic. The main difference between you two is that she's happy with that dynamic and you aren't. Is it her "fault" that you are unhappy, when what you "have" is the same as what she has but it makes her happy? I'm sure you know that you are making a choice and don't blame her completely. But I do always read in your posts a sense that you still think she could and should "do more to make you happy", which is another way of saying "if she was different, I could be happy". And another way of saying "if she would change, I would be happy". And another way "I want her to change".

As @Wildejade said earlier, why wouldn't you instead say "I want to change"? There's that underlying message that she is at fault and is doing this to you without your consent.

But your passivity IS your consent. You just don't like the results.

A question for you...has she ever voiced any complaint with you or your marriage? If so, what was it, at what time in your marriage was it, and was it something you could address? And did you address it? And more specifically, has she ever said anything about your passive nature, good or bad?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Reading between the lines it seems to me that scheduling sex or prepping for sex in her mind is sex. Or, the part of sex that is worthwhile to her, that of being desired. Not the actual physical part.

As far as she knows, putting on a little prep is equivalent to multiple O's with sprinkles. Never mind reality got in the way. As for the no sex part? His fault, he was up playing board games.

Once you start deciphering​ stuff like that life becomes much easier.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> The problem is that its possible to view the same events as having different causes. There is often a "reasonable" and a "selfish" explanation.
> 
> The non-selfish model I have for my wife is that sometimes she wants sex - but that it has to be a very specific set of things, any sexual activity outside of that, or at any different time is very unpleasant for her.
> 
> ...


That's sad - and I can confidently say I don't do this. Rather, I won't say anything about a promise of sex if I can't be 100% sure it will happen (or that I'd want it to happen). I too have a very fleeting drive where I have moments of thinking hey - that would be nice, but they sometimes quickly pass. I have noticed this mostly since I started taking SSRI meds so I assume it is a side effect of the meds. (I.e. the fact that the feeling is so fleeting and I can't hold onto it for any length of time)

What do you do or say when she changes plans or doesn't keep her promise? Your description made it sound like you don't say anything at all?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Nope, the last bit is your own twist on why I brought up GettingIt's story. I brought her story up for the same reason you brought up stories about the sufferings of LDs: to show that there are *all kinds of stories.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LIKE.

A lot.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> The thing is, Alexm doesn't know whether his wife is compromising or not (correct me if I am wrong). His opening post talks about having sex on her terms and on her schedule (to which I said that if it meets his frequency and the sex is good, then take it, but that's a different story). Maybe there is some room for compromise, maybe not, but his wife is the only person who will have the answer to this question.


Yep, this. It's a quandary of my own doing - I know this. I've always known this. The frequency is... fine. I'd prefer more often, but hey, once a week at my age, with our schedules - okay.

But, it's just that - it's on her terms. Always on her terms. I feel like I'm along for a ride. A good ride, once a week... but a ride nonetheless.

So for me, I look at it this way - not everything has to be mutual in our marriage. There are things I'm happy being a passenger for, there are things I'm more comfortable being in the drivers seat for. These things, AFAIK, are mutually acceptable to the two of us. We each have our strengths and weaknesses, and we delegate accordingly.

This, I have no say in. It's been made abundantly clear to me that my opinion, my needs, my preferences, are moot.

So several weeks ago, I arrived at the only logical solution to regaining some measure of participation in my own sex life (see original post, page 1). For the past 5, 6 years, I've been a passenger. Actually, I've been the family dog that gets excited when he hears the words "ride in the car?"

And that's been my own doing - I realize that. I've been conditioned (probably subconsciously on her part. I hope.) to respond only when I'm told to, and to otherwise (to use another dog analogy) "leave it".


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, that's the response I was looking for. Without context, it might appear that you put your needs without any regard towards her needs. It's clearly not the case. At least not from the way you have described it here. Has she noticed what you are doing and why? Has it affected her behaviour or the relationship in a positive way?


She does not like it at all. She considers it a tit-for-tat. She is entitled to see it however she sees fit. 

Yet there is an expectation that her withdrawals should be okay. And they are...for a week or two. Then they are not.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Sure, it's your right to dodge pertinent questions.
> 
> But just to be clear: I don't need to re-explain you, it's enough to quote you. Not the same courtesy that is always extended to me.
> 
> Peace too.


I was saying that I try to re-explain myself, and you then don't understand my re-explanation. So I re-explain again, and you still don't understand it. I never said that you need to re-explain me, and I have no problem with anything of mine you've quoted. Even this exchange is already of the nature of you not understanding me, no matter how many times I re-explain myself. 

Tell you what....if you want to start a thread in the ladies lounge or the social spot so we can further discuss whatever it is we are discussing at this point (I'd be happy to start with the post this quote is from and answer all of those questions), then I'm all for it.

But otherwise, we are simply thread jacking here, and we are also not doing a point/counter-point dance, we are doing something else that takes others too long to wade through. So it is only considerate that we move along to another thread, or just let it go.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> So several weeks ago, I arrived at the only logical solution to regaining some measure of participation in my own sex life (see original post, page 1). For the past 5, 6 years, I've been a passenger. Actually, I've been the family dog that gets excited when he hears the words "ride in the car?"
> 
> And that's been my own doing - I realize that. I've been conditioned (probably subconsciously on her part. I hope.) to respond only when I'm told to, and to otherwise (to use another dog analogy) "leave it".


I don't know if you recall me saying this before, but I've been in that position too, and I can totally empathize with it. It was very anxiety provoking to me, at the time. 

But I do know and understand now that when I was in that position, my partner never meant to "make me" feel I was "put" in that position, nor wanted to train me like a dog. He was simply being true to his own sex drive, and had boundaries about it, and even though I wanted more frequency and he knew it, he also knew he was giving what he could *authentically* give. 

Now that I understand this, I love and respect him all the more. Because it really was never meant to "put me in my place" or for him to control me. It was all about him honoring himself.

I can be literally like a puppy dog who is eager for luvs, and pets, and fun, and games, and more, and what's next, and I'm going to jump on your lap now, and pant pant, hey wanna play? Even though we just played? Pant pant, play play play. Ball? Car? Is there anything exciting in my future?

I understand now that my puppy energy was just fine with him and he accepted it and loved me and adored my puppy-like qualities. But he had boundaries. He didn't want me on his lap sometimes. He didn't want to play for more than 2 hours sometimes. He always loved me, never punished me, was always charmed by me and my presence, but he only did what he wanted to do and what was natural and authentic for him. (And that level was completely withing what others would consider normal, average, healthy, whatever).

At the time...I felt like a neglected puppy. I could not self soothe and I did not have the maturity to just sit and be cool about sh*t. (I'm not saying that's where you are at, just sharing). So I would try to seduce him. That never worked, because his love and lust for me were ALWAYS on display at a supreme level. There was no time that he lusted for me anymore than any other time, regardless of my actions. His level of lust for me also made no difference in his sex drive. He knew his baseline needs and followed them. My attempts at seduction did not make his need for sex higher.

I'm not saying that I didn't initiate with seduction very nicely a lot of the time...I'm talking about when I knew he wasn't up for sex but tried to seduce him into changing his mind. Never worked. He was either up for sex, or he wasn't. And I always knew when he was or wasn't, he was very transparent, never hid himself or his desires.

He explained to me quite honestly when we were first together that he could see I had a huge and high sex drive including a desired high frequency, but that he would never be able to live up to that level. He admired my huge need, he just didn't share it. He said he would always do his best but that I'd better get my expectations in check because he is who he is. 

The sex with him was of such high quality (which was his biggest need and desire) that eventually I became very happy with it, in the quantities he was able to deliver authentically. He literally NEVER gave me any type of inauthentic sex. No duty or pity or "here I guess I'll give it to you because you're so damn horny all the time, you poor thing". Nothing like that. He was either feeling it, or we didn't do it. (I've never "not felt it", so there was never a time that this wasn't true for me, too). Eventually I understood and appreciated why he would only have sex with me when he authentically wanted to. 

And in the long run...I was like a more mature, but healthy and devoted adult dog. I loved him, he loved me. I did not shake and turn circles in his presence, I just went to him and offered my head and he'd pet it. I did not get anxiety if he didn't pay attention to me, I didn't beg for it, I didn't try to jump on his lap. I learned to self soothe, and to just be good with the loving feelings I had inside of me (that felt like sexual feelings), whether they turned into something sexual with him in reality or not.

I can say I was only able to do this because we did have constant affection, flirting, playfulness, making out, and sexuality every day, whether it was a "sex day" or not. That fed me just enough to learn to self soothe in the long run. 

In my current relationship...I've been allowed to be a puppy again. We are really compatible like that. There's no rules about when and where, I can just jump him any time. I like that. I prefer it (as long as the quality is still high). I think you said this was true in the beginning of your marriage, too. So maybe it is just the newness of a relationship that makes some of us bring our puppies out. I just think you and I would choose to be puppies throughout a relationship, not just in the beginning, if given our druthers. :grin2:

But I learned so much about this from my ex. I do not want to impose my energetic puppy on anyone who doesn't want it. It is rude to do so. I have to respect people's boundaries, and I do now. I also have to not get butt hurt if they don't want me jumping on their lap. It isn't personal, it is just not something some people enjoy, while others love it.

I know I haven't shared anything that helps you....but I do think we are similar enough that you will enjoy what I did share. :smthumbup:


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Steve1000 said:


> You're definitely not a freak. One nice thing about the internet is that we all have been able to learn that there are others that share our characteristics whether positive or negative. Like I mentioned earlier, what makes you rare is that you still have a good and open attitude about this issue. I say good because you are still willing to think about and discuss this issue.
> 
> If your husband ended the marriage, what reason did he give you?


I got the ever-popular "I love you. but I'm not in love with you." At one point. he did say that he felt a need to be free of responsibility for wife and children...to be a carefree bachelor again. From my point of view, it seemed as if he had faced his mortality and freaked out and had a massive midlife crisis. 

I did ask "why?" on the day he made his big announcement. I was in shock. He offered nothing that made any sense. He didn't really verbalize his point of view. Then, he moved out. and we basically haven't spoken to this day, after spending half our lives together. So I'm still trying to figure out why our family got blown up. So are the kids.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> I assume your husband cheated?
> The probability is very small that it had anything to do with you (especially if he never complained, not that it would have been ok to cheat if he did complain). Some guys cheat. You are not to blame for his actions.


I did not learn that from him. I did find out afterward, though online sleuthing, that he had been hooking up with random women he met on the Internet, which horrified me, because we had been having sex all along as normal, and I was afraid of possible exposure to HIV and/or lesser diseases from these women.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I never said or thought that "all HD's" are sitting in a big pool of misery.
> 
> Though many are, but many are quite content, many are only sometimes bothered. Never said otherwise and no reason to think that's what I think (if you meant me in this quote). In your case in particular, from what I've gathered from your recent threads, you are pretty zen about your sitch.


My post wasn't directed at you (that is why I quoted Hope's post), more a general observation as I have seen in other threads (and this thread as well but earlier on) some comments from other posters that basically implied the people who were talking about their issues were whining or full of self pity.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I know I haven't shared anything that helps you....but I do think we are similar enough that you will enjoy what I did share. :smthumbup:


No, it does. At least to know I'm not alone (not that I ever really thought I was with such a common issue).

The funny thing is, you and I aren't similar in terms of drive, but the situations we've found ourselves in are the same. Ironically, I'd probably be your ex in your scenario! I'd probably have to implement boundaries with you, as well, lol!

But obviously that does help to understand my wife a little bit more.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> My post wasn't directed at you (that is why I quoted Hope's post), more a general observation as I have seen in other threads (and this thread as well but earlier on) some comments from other posters that basically implied the people who were talking about their issues were whining or full of self pity.


Honestly, I get it. People like me have basically been posting about the same subject for, in some cases, years, with little or no change in the situation. I can see why it's frustrating for some to see the same thing over and over again.

It's obviously more complex than that, of course, but on the surface - from what others see - it's same old, same old. My signature is a direct quote from a long-time user who feels that way, as is his prerogative. But it's also not helpful, and it reminds me that some people are just miserable, and to not become so jaded over my 'problem' that I start to have that kind of mindset. All in all, life isn't bad over here in Mike Land.

I think it's only natural that somebody eventually tells you to fish or cut bait. I'm not there, and I'm not sure I ever will be. As @Hope1964 said, sometimes the marriage is otherwise very very good and this is the only 'issue'. For some of us, that issue isn't divorce-worthy. It's just ****ing frustrating. Technically speaking, it's something some of us CAN live with, but we really don't want to.

I can only speak for myself, but when I bring up this matter on TAM, I'm not wallowing in self pity. Quite the opposite, actually. When I take the time to make a post like this (no matter how repetitive it may have become to some) it means I'm determined, a little bit PO'd, and yes, need to vent a little. I'm tired of the status quo, and after years of looking to change her, it's become apparent that I need to change my own view, my own habits, my own goals, my own life.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Almost all of them, though, pointed out that average doesn't necessarily imply desirability or even normality.


I majored in math. I understand the difference between mean and median. We can argue over technical definitions. We can argue whether the distribution is a bell curve or some other shape. We can argue over whether mean or median is a better predictive tool.

In any case, after we get done arguing over semantics, my point still stands. Data about other couples' behavior is unhelpful in resolving a mismatch within one particular couple. Data about other couples' behavior is only helpful in assessing the likelihood that each partner within the couple can break up the relationship and reasonably expect to find a different partner who desires sex at a rate closer to the unhappy individuals desired frequency. It may help me decide where to draw my line in the sand. It is unlikely to sway my partner to move closer to my desired spot.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

2020hindsight said:


> I got the ever-popular "I love you. but I'm not in love with you." At one point. he did say that he felt a need to be free of responsibility for wife and children...to be a carefree bachelor again. From my point of view, it seemed as if he had faced his mortality and freaked out and had a massive midlife crisis.
> 
> I did ask "why?" on the day he made his big announcement. I was in shock. He offered nothing that made any sense. He didn't really verbalize his point of view. Then, he moved out. and we basically haven't spoken to this day, after spending half our lives together. So I'm still trying to figure out why our family got blown up. So are the kids.


That's hard to fathom and I can only imagine how difficult to deal with, especially with children involved. I won't ask anymore questions in this thread, but I encourage you to start a new thread about your situation (if you have not done so already).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> My post wasn't directed at you (that is why I quoted Hope's post), more a general observation as I have seen in other threads (and this thread as well but earlier on) some comments from other posters that basically implied the people who were talking about their issues were whining or full of self pity.


But the post you quoted from Hope was directed to me....and then you commented on what Hope was saying to me in basic agreement with her. Therefore the confusion.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> But the post you quoted from Hope was directed to me....and then you commented on what Hope was saying to me in basic agreement with her. Therefore the confusion.


Is there a rule for when we quote/reply to a post, how far back the quote chain to look back before an early poster is off the hook :grin2:

Like I said, I was just replying to Hope's comment about "sitting in misery" and a general observation I have made in other threads like this one. No more, no less.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

alexm said:


> I think it's only natural that somebody eventually tells you to fish or cut bait. I'm not there, and I'm not sure I ever will be. As @Hope1964 said, sometimes the marriage is otherwise very very good and this is the only 'issue'. For some of us, that issue isn't divorce-worthy. It's just ****ing frustrating. Technically speaking, it's something some of us CAN live with, but we really don't want to.
> . . . .
> I'm tired of the status quo, and after years of looking to change her, it's become apparent that I need to change my own view, my own habits, my own goals, my own life.


Yes, this, so much this. I can live with it, but I don't like it. And the only one I can change is me.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Someone posts something that's a small issue in their life overall, they even SAY it's a small issue, and TAM blows it into cause for divorce and a restraining order. This thread didn't get derailed QUITE that far, but I've seen it happen.



wild jade said:


> You could change too. It's just that easy.


Is there some reason you think I haven't?



Faithful Wife said:


> I did not specifically point out either you or Alex, and I fully understand your positions, and never took issue with it.
> 
> Sorry if you didn't like what I wrote...but don't put words in my mouth.


You're posting on Alex's thread. Who am I supposed to think you're talking to?? I didn't put words in your mouth, I quoted you. I'm allowed to disagree with you, you know.



EllisRedding said:


> The key here as well, just because people are here venting does not mean they are sitting in a big pool of misery. Heck, I thought that was part of the reason for this thread, to give Alex a chance to talk things out, get feedback from those who have gone through or are going through similar situations.


Exactly. It would sure be nice if people addressed what's being addressed and didn't just try to push their own agendas. I know, I know, that's a pipe dream


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> You're posting on Alex's thread. Who am I supposed to think you're talking to?? I didn't put words in your mouth, I quoted you. I'm allowed to disagree with you, you know.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. It would sure be nice if people addressed what's being addressed and didn't just try to push their own agendas. I know, I know, that's a pipe dream


What you quoted of mine was from the middle of a back-and-forth I was having with someone else and was not directed at anyone's situation. But again, feel free to take it personally and assume you know what I meant and what my intention was, as you've clearly done.

Some people actually are sitting in misery over this issue, I did not name anyone who is, and I didn't even mean that anyone on this thread is. I was talking about the topic in general (which would have been obvious if you had read more than the one post of mine you quoted). But instead you immediately decided I was talking about you and alex. 

You can disagree with me, but you can't impose what you think I meant over what I actually meant. So you will be disagreeing with something I never meant, but feel free.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, I've tried that. Let her know that its getting late. Her response is always that there is plenty of time - followed by the inevitable "I'm sorry, I'm really feeling tired now". 

Yes, I could say "I told you it was getting late", or "that is what you've said the last half dozen times", but why. She clearly doesn't want sex at the point, so I'm not going to pressure her into it. 

I'm convinced that if I did tell her at the outset that she keeps doing this, she would just find some more important task she *had* to do. 

I think she starts out thinking that she will want sex later - after all there is no reason not to, but discoveres that she doesn't when the time comes. 


She has never commented on my being passive. I expect she likes it. Certainly she gets unhappy when I disagree with her about doing pretty much anything. The thing is, I'm easy to please, so I don't see any point starting an argument over where to eat, or any of the many other trivial decisions we make - I don't want to pretend something matters to me when it doesn't. 

On the occasional things that matter, I won't budge. Sometimes it creates big problems, sometimes not. 

Her complaints about my behavior over the years pretty much are:

I work too much - used to be true, but my job changed over time so that I no longer work crazy shifts, and haven't for many years.

I interrupt her - She interrupts me a roughly equal amount, but I've been sure to stop doing it - though it makes conversations more awkward,

I don't listen - That I can't fix - I'll be working on something and she will start talking, but not have succeeded at grabbing my attention

Its not her *fault*. She can't change what she is. I can't change what I am further than I have already done. I can live like this or leave. I've decided to stay, but complain on TAM. So TAM readers get the brunt of my frustration. 







Faithful Wife said:


> There is also an element of your passivity here. You clearly refuse to point out when she repeatedly says "let's get to bed early so we can have sex" and then stays up late doing something else. You are the one playing the board game with her, right? So why didn't you stop in the middle of it and say "no, this will make it too late for sex, and I'd rather have sex, let's go". For some reason this type of "control" you might exhibit is something you don't want to do. It doesn't come natural to you or whatever reason.
> 
> I understand she is controlling in general and believe you. But what you are bringing to the table not only enables what she's bringing, it also seems to be in the same proportion to what she is bringing.
> 
> ...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I majored in math. I understand the difference between mean and median. We can argue over technical definitions. We can argue whether the distribution is a bell curve or some other shape. We can argue over whether mean or median is a better predictive tool.
> 
> In any case, after we get done arguing over semantics, my point still stands. Data about other couples' behavior is unhelpful in resolving a mismatch within one particular couple. Data about other couples' behavior is only helpful in assessing the likelihood that each partner within the couple can break up the relationship and reasonably expect to find a different partner who desires sex at a rate closer to the unhappy individuals desired frequency. It may help me decide where to draw my line in the sand. It is unlikely to sway my partner to move closer to my desired spot.


errrr, dude, I was *agreeing* with you, not arguing.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> What you quoted of mine was from the middle of a back-and-forth I was having with someone else and was not directed at anyone's situation. But again, feel free to take it personally and assume you know what I meant and what my intention was, as you've clearly done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just an observation but something I noticed happens not infrequently: you mention something in a passive form (grammatically), while it's pretty self evident who and what you mean, but when you realise that perhaps it was too confrontational or maybe over the top, you either retrace your steps ('don't put words in my mouth') or change the tack so that this negative that you were just criticising, suddenly becomes a positive & something you like in people... It makes it difficult to read/understand the tone of your original posts correctly (for me at least). 
Maybe it's a forum thing.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Yes, I've tried that. Let her know that its getting late. Her response is always that there is plenty of time - followed by the inevitable "I'm sorry, I'm really feeling tired now".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it possible to tell her explicitly that you want to **** her first and then play the board games/go on holiday/wear sexy lingerie etc? 'First we need to save our marriage, honey. Now take your clothes off.'

Is it wrong to show when one is desperate?
This applies to Alex too: why is it ok to show sexual desperation at the beginning of a relationship but not in the middle of it? (Referencing to when you said that things used to be simpler in the beginning. They were also simpler for you btw).

I have a feeling she might waiting for a clear sign that you actually want to have sex with her (back to uhtred). Bouncing the idea around in the room a bit waiting till someone shows a clear indication - ('it's getting late' maybe an ok move in Britain where I live, where everyone is polite and drinks tea all day long, but not in the general world, I would have thought  - 
It seems a bit unclear to me (sorry if I got it wrong) why you play board games with her which don't involve sex. Too considerate maybe?

After a week of no sex, I literally tell my wife that my balls are blue colour and if she doesn't open her legs, there will be an explosion.
(Ok that has to be done semi-jokingly).
But I think some women enjoy knowing when their husband is desperate. I don't think it's necessarily a weakness to show sexual frustration. Nor does it have to be a 'control' thing on woman's part.
It could be a straightforward 'game'.

Alex feels frustrated to always be in the passenger's seat but did you know that all the control can come from the 'passive' backseat driver?  you have the power to accept or reject her schedule thingy.

My guess is this behaviour becomes 'conditioned' when too many rejections have taken place. My advice: unless there's a valid reason to be rejected (illness etc), don't accept it. Make a fuss/confront. You carry it around with you and end up in a vicious circle.
I know I make it sound unreasonably easy. There are clearly cases where it's not straightforward (i.e. Rape histories etc, asexuality etc).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PS: That crude/humorous approach may also not work for every type of person of course. I am not sure it might be effective in far's case: she might not be open to that kind of humour.
I think it might work in uhtred's case (since she likes board games and might be open to playfulness...) and possibly alexm's (if frequency becomes an issue).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Yep, this. It's a quandary of my own doing - I know this. I've always known this. The frequency is... fine. I'd prefer more often, but hey, once a week at my age, with our schedules - okay.
> 
> But, it's just that - it's on her terms. Always on her terms. I feel like I'm along for a ride. A good ride, once a week... but a ride nonetheless.
> 
> ...


I think you are being too hard on yourself. But also that you might be making a mole out of an anthill. I mean when you write things like "It's been made abundantly clear to me that my opinion, my needs, my preferences, are moot." I am really not sure you are being fair to her.

When she jumps into bed naked: that's initiating and wanting sex with you. 100%.
The only thing I can see is the Saturday schedule thing and this is due to her work schedule/her life, yet your phrasing implies that it's *her*. Can you not look it from the perspective that her work/life makes it more difficult to think about sex on other days and let her personally off the hook?
Ask yourself this: if she didn't work, which days of the week do you think you'd be having sex on?
Yes: it would be the 'wheel of fortune' day. Just like when you go on holidays and have sex.

We all have stuff in our lives that interferes with other stuff. I have to be away about 70% of the time on trips I am sure my wife doesn't think that it's *me*, who didn't leave her a choice in this but just the way our lives are set up? @Faithful Wife said a relevant thing about one of her relationships: that it's not deliberate from the partner's side and it's 'not meant to put you in your place'. I have been going on about projection of intentions way too much but in your case it still applies. (In other cases, compromise is needed).
In fact in your case, I would argue that it's even more clear cut than hers: *you don't even know for sure that your wife's current sex frequency would be significantly lower than yours, if your lives/her work were set up differently.*
I kind of started getting that impression when you were IMO (mis)labelling her  (ND etc while describing your sex lives. The guy who came up with these terms even posted on this thread somewhere.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Other than being physically away, there has never been anything in my work/life which has interfered with sex .

Oh, you were talking about his wife . I doubt any amount of life rearranging would have any effect on frequency for the LD wife. Possibly slightly change the slope of the line but it always starts in the upper left pre-marriage and trends to zero on the lower right. Add break points @ 2 years, completion of child bearing then menopause and you've got the line. Slight flattening for a few months post periodic 'talks'.

The hilarious thing is how long it takes us to recognize the pattern.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

But he wrote that on holiday, they can have sex any day, multiple times a week. That's the reason I asked about it further up the thread. She's clearly a different type of LD. And maybe not even an LD at all, who knows.

Yes, an LD spouse who refuses to make any effort*/find a compromise somewhere may require a totally different approach.

*And I don't care if some people think I am being too harsh on LDs. It doesn't mean one has to exclude all other causes, including one of the most important ones to look at first: yourself.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> *Btw the objectifying stuff: do you mind explaining why you enjoy it?
> *My wife seems to love it (and I always felt quite natural with it but afterwards I lie in bed wondering if it's maybe a form of personality disorder or maybe something happened in her life that she's not telling me about.* Because she's so different in real life, outside of sex.* Obviously I would never tell her these things because I don't want to make her uncomfortable about it or to kill the golden goose as they say .
> 
> And I do enjoy it too but a lot of it is because I get such strong feed back (she seems to get strongest orgasms from being objectified, sometimes pretty rough ). I can also play sub sometimes but not for very long. While I don't think she can be dom at all. I dunno.
> 'Romantic sex' rarely did anything at all for her in any case...


Just caught up on this loooong thread and wanted to answer this. I enjoy being dominated (objectified) sexually (in private). In fact, I need it.

The reason is because IRL I work with men exclusively and to avoid unwanted interactions and garner respect I have to “front” being calm, assertive (dominant) and repress my femininity. My hobbies are also more typically “male” hobbies.

Having to maintain this "front" day in and day out is emotionally exhausting. And so, in my private sexual life I let my submissive and feminine side free. Basically it keeps my life in some sort of balance.

So yes, if you knew me IRL you would never guess that I am very sexual and sexually submissive.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

You're not wrong about the scheduling thing. I've always known that in the back of my mind.

The only thing I don't agree with is the labelling/mislabelling. She describes herself as ND (or rather, asexual - but I actually disagree with the asexual part).

In any case, we discussed this topic a few years ago, and long story short, she claims she's never had desire before, ever. She doesn't understand the concept of being horny. Until she bought a sex toy at a party her friend had, she had never once masturbated. And even after buying the toy, it only lasted a couple of months (seems like it was more experimental than anything, a new sensation, and more novel than sexual. I don't think she's masturbated solo in a couple of years now).

Anyway, I don't believe she's asexual or NO desire, but I do think she's the very definition of responsive desire. But responsive only when there's agreed-upon physical touch, if you know what I mean. She has to know it's coming, has to prepare for it. It has to be on the agenda, I guess.

And I have difficulty understanding this (not that I have to, I know that now) because she's not like this with anything else. So there's a block of some sort when it comes to sex, and it can never be impulsive, on-the-fly, unplanned, whatever.




inmyprime said:


> I think you are being too hard on yourself. But also that you might be making a mole out of an anthill. I mean when you write things like "It's been made abundantly clear to me that my opinion, my needs, my preferences, are moot." I am really not sure you are being fair to her.
> 
> When she jumps into bed naked: that's initiating and wanting sex with you. 100%.
> The only thing I can see is the Saturday schedule thing and this is due to her work schedule/her life, yet your phrasing implies that it's *her*. Can you not look it from the perspective that her work/life makes it more difficult to think about sex on other days and let her personally off the hook?
> ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Red Sonja said:


> Just caught up on this loooong thread and wanted to answer this. I enjoy being dominated (objectified) sexually (in private). In fact, I need it.
> 
> The reason is because IRL I work with men exclusively and to avoid unwanted interactions and garner respect I have to “front” being calm, assertive (dominant) and repress my femininity. My hobbies are also more typically “male” hobbies.
> 
> ...


I've long thought this about my wife. She, too, is in an exclusively male work environment (well, a few women, but not in her dept. AT ALL).

I can be dominant-ish, but I haven't really seen much difference when I am. I have also pushed the envelope a few times over the years, and that hasn't seemed to generate a positive response. Maybe I came across as fake, I don't know.

IRL, I'm neither dominant nor submissive, truly. I can be both at times, but I'm really just in the middle. Same with my wife, TBH. We both just go with the flow most of the time. Our sex is extremely similar. Neither one takes charge, neither one sits back. It couldn't be more mutual.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@alexm, I think you'd find your wife a whole lot easier to understand it you would just believe her. 

Why are you so determined that she be responsive desire and submissive? Nothing you have said through this whole long thread indicates she is either in any way, and yet you keep coming back to it over and over, trying to wedge that square peg into the round hole that you've made for her.

I don't get it. :scratchhead: Why not just believe her, and all of a sudden just about everything will make perfect sense.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Update: Bit of a "fail" weekend, but... meh.

Friday, house to ourselves. Had a fun evening out with friends, got home early enough, but she passed out before anything could happen. No big deal. I was up for a few hours after she was, so I was a little frustrated, but not at her.

Saturday, a bit of a cluster-fudge. Out with friends again, and home a bit later than I had hoped for, but all good. Said she was going up to bed, so I guess I expected the usual Saturday night. Came up 5 or so minutes later only to find her in bed, lights out. Awake enough to mumble good night and tell me to come back to bed in the morning and 'wake her up'. I went back downstairs and watched some baseball. Frustrated, but not upset.

Sunday morning - did as she had asked me. I'm almost always up before her on weekends, and I putter around, put the coffee on, etc. By the time I went back upstairs to wake her up (nudge, nudge, wink, wink!) she had gotten out of bed already. Probably missed her by a minute or two. I made it pretty clear, non-verbally, that I was not up there to get dressed, but she proceeded to do so, then brush her teeth, etc. Oh well!

Sunday night, not long before bed, it got the best of me, and I straight up asked her "so, are we going to **** tonight or what?" (I was smiling when I said this, btw. And yes, those are the exact words I used!) And she said, very coyly "welllll... okay!". So we did.

Not ideal for me, but I'll take it. I've stuck to my guns about being whiny or meek. And even though I DID ask, I didn't "ask".


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@alexm: I know you know this, but you are too nice. Why did you go downstairs and putter? You should have peed, brushed your teeth, used some mouthwash, sprayed on some cologne (if A2 like that) and woken her up as soon as you were no longer stinky. She told you to wake her up. You chose not to. Fail is entirely on you.

If you wake her up and she said "I meant at 7, not 5:30" you have your marching orders for the following weekend. But you still move forward at 5:30, or ask what time she wants you to wake her up if she prefers to roll over and go back to sleep. You are allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good enough.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have in the past told her what I wanted then - she was too "tired". I've sat her down and told here what I thought constituted a good sex life - and she told me I was being unreasonable. 







inmyprime said:


> snip
> 
> I have a feeling she might waiting for a clear sign that you actually want to have sex with her (back to uhtred). Bouncing the idea around in the room a bit waiting till someone shows a clear indication - ('it's getting late' maybe an ok move in Britain where I live, where everyone is polite and drinks tea all day long, but not in the general world, I would have thought  -
> It seems a bit unclear to me (sorry if I got it wrong) why you play board games with her which don't involve sex. Too considerate maybe?
> ...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> And btw accept that you two have different needs. Last night my w gave me a bj but didn't want to o herself - she really enjoys giving oral more than anything and she often doesn't want to o. So I have s daily need and she's 1-3 times a week and that's what happens. And it's ok - since I don't expect her to experience sexual satisfaction the same way I do.
> 
> Ponder that - is it ok if you both experience satisfaction differently?
> 
> ...


You have different needs, so your wife takes that into account and satisfies yours even though she doesn't have a need at that time.

Great! My wife would do the same.

But there's no way @alexm's wife is going to do that (she has specifically said that she hates NSA blowjobs).

So, what's the difference between our wives and alex's?

I know this sounds crude, but I would only marry a woman who was happy to perform NSA oral sex. She can't control her libido, but she can control how she responds to mine.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Just an observation but something I noticed happens not infrequently: you mention something in a passive form (grammatically), while it's pretty self evident who and what you mean, but when you realise that perhaps it was too confrontational or maybe over the top, you either retrace your steps ('don't put words in my mouth') or change the tack so that this negative that you were just criticising, suddenly becomes a positive & something you like in people... It makes it difficult to read/understand the tone of your original posts correctly (for me at least).
> Maybe it's a forum thing.


I've noticed the exact same thing.



alexm said:


> Update: Bit of a "fail" weekend, but... meh.


Same here. Hubby left for vacation with his dad at 4 am Sat morning, so I KIND of expected some action before he left. Thurs we raked the yard and when he came to bed he said so sorry I'm too tired to 'make love', rolled over and went to sleep. Fri morning I woke up a bit before him and 'rubbed' him for a bit but he didn't respond, then when his alarm went off he got up and got ready for work and that was that. Friday night we get home, his dad is going to be there in a couple of hours, and I wanted to see if he'd initiate anything since I'd basically been turned down twice in the last 24 hours. Nope. Nada. Zilch. Right when we got home would have been perfect, or right after we exercised and were changing to get into the hot tub, or after his dad went to bed. But NOTHING.

Sigh. Work in progress, work in progress.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

@alexm, sorry if you've addressed this, but did your wife have a religious upbringing or something? Were her parents anti-sex? Because mine sure were, and I had a few hang ups to get over before I was able to really WANT sex. I was in my 40's before that happened. And I used to act like your wife does now in some ways.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

TheTruthHurts said:


> You haven't indicated your W is NOT accommodating and willing when direct expectations are set - so why not accept this is the door - and go ahead and open it???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seems like I have, no? 

Just because I've accepted it, doesn't mean I like it, though. It is what it is. I see that now. No sense in getting as worked up about it as I used to.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

TheTruthHurts said:


> And btw accept that you two have different needs. Last night my w gave me a bj but didn't want to o herself - she really enjoys giving oral more than anything and she often doesn't want to o. So I have s daily need and she's 1-3 times a week and that's what happens. And it's ok - since I don't expect her to experience sexual satisfaction the same way I do.
> 
> Ponder that - is it ok if you both experience satisfaction differently?
> 
> ...


I absolutely would if I were getting blown a few times a week, yeah. I have NO problem with the differences we have, just in her nearly resolute manner of 'once a week, on her terms'. If there was a compromise, as there is in your marriage, I'd not just be 'fine', I'd be ecstatic. An acknowledgement that there's a need for more than just once a week intercourse would be magical.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> @alexm, sorry if you've addressed this, but did your wife have a religious upbringing or something? Were her parents anti-sex? Because mine sure were, and I had a few hang ups to get over before I was able to really WANT sex. I was in my 40's before that happened. And I used to act like your wife does now in some ways.


Short answer - no. Long answer, pm'ing you.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Going to sort of piggyback off of Hope's post above but in a different vein - does your wife have friends who talk about how they rarely have sex with their husbands? If so, then that leads her to think that her attitude is normal (apologies if you mentioned this - scanned the thread but certainly possible that this was covered and I missed it). I see it with my wife - heard her tell a friend that the friend should get a year-long "pass" from sex because they have to move because of husband's job. Her reward for having to move is to not have sex for a year? Is sex that much of a bother where getting a year off is considered a treat or reward?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Going to sort of piggyback off of Hope's post above but in a different vein - does your wife have friends who talk about how they rarely have sex with their husbands? If so, then that leads her to think that her attitude is normal (apologies if you mentioned this - scanned the thread but certainly possible that this was covered and I missed it). I see it with my wife - heard her tell a friend that the friend should get a year-long "pass" from sex because they have to move because of husband's job. Her reward for having to move is to not have sex for a year? Is sex that much of a bother where getting a year off is considered a treat or reward?


Yes.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

John when is your blast off date? Soon, isn't it?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> You're not wrong about the scheduling thing. I've always known that in the back of my mind.
> 
> The only thing I don't agree with is the labelling/mislabelling. She describes herself as ND (or rather, asexual - but I actually disagree with the asexual part).
> 
> ...


But surely it can be if it comes from you? I mean how much advance notice dos she need? 
Say it's a weekend, you are away (no kids etc), do you actually need to inform her a day or sveral beforehand to have sex or can you start it with her, *spontaneously*, can she _respond_ straight away? 
I really wouldn't get too hung up on all these ND/LD/HD definitions...Her jumping into bed naked: pretty difficult thing to do if you are not horny. Her enjoying the sex/climaxing: ditto.

I wonder under which circumstances/what else was said in the conversation when she described herself as an 'asexual'. Sounds an odd thing to say in view of what you describe. Was it during an argument?
Not many women feel or express 'horniness' in exactly the same way men do (the speed with which a man can go commando is I would say a man thing in general). Doesn't mean there's anything much to worry about IMO.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Update: Bit of a "fail" weekend, but... meh.
> 
> Friday, house to ourselves. Had a fun evening out with friends, got home early enough, but she passed out before anything could happen. No big deal. I was up for a few hours after she was, so I was a little frustrated, but not at her.
> 
> ...


Yep, that's the way to do it, if you don't want to let it slide (or want it to 'slide in', instead . You did ask :wink2: But that should be absolutely fine! (It's only not fine if you are rejected many times in a row then it's a problem...)

Also, ironically, it seems you are more on a schedule than she is. She probably has no idea what a 'sex schedule' is


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I have in the past told her what I wanted then - she was too "tired". I've sat her down and told here *what I thought constituted a good sex life* - and she told me I was being unreasonable.


I am not sure that's the premise I would start out with. I would tell her what *I would want in my sex life to happen*, not what a 'good sex life should look like'.
Own your needs. There's no shame in that.
If she tells you you are unreasonable (or selfish etc), ask her if she thinks being tired every single time you want to have sex with your wife is reasonable.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> John when is your blast off date? Soon, isn't it?


End of the month once everyone is at home and we're ready to play the Monty Hall game..


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > John when is your blast off date? Soon, isn't it?
> ...


Are you nervous?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Are you nervous?


Nope. Like Monty Hall, there's three doors. One with a good outcome and two with not good outcomes. Costs and benefits for all three have been calculated. 

All we need is our contestant.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think you should start a thread about it. It might end up harder than you think.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> Anyway, I don't believe she's asexual or NO desire, but I do think she's the very definition of responsive desire. But responsive only when there's agreed-upon physical touch, if you know what I mean. She has to know it's coming, has to prepare for it. It has to be on the agenda, I guess.


I am still not convinced your W is responsive desire (at least how I view the definition). The whole "agreed upon" concept seems to go against being responsive desire (IMO)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I am still not convinced your W is responsive desire (at least how I view the definition). The whole "agreed upon" concept seems to go against being responsive desire (IMO)


But "agreed upon" may be Alexm's perspective/perception of the situation. It may not necessarily be his wife's perspective or how she feels about it, judging of what actually happens in the bedroom. It's kind of hard to keep enjoying sex out of 'agreement', week in/out.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I don't believe she's asexual or NO desire, but I do think she's the very definition of responsive desire. But responsive only when there's agreed-upon physical touch, if you know what I mean. She has to know it's coming, has to prepare for it. It has to be on the agenda, I guess.
> ...


I think she's responsive desire with complete control (over your sex life together) in that she has determined that the only time she will BE responsive is at the allotted day/time. Hasn't she let it be known that you are not to approach her with any kind of sexuality (even flirting) during the week? That's responsive desire, with the added twist of-- but only under her terms/times.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> But "agreed upon" may be Alexm's perspective/perception of the situation. It may not necessarily be his wife's perspective or how she feels about it, judging of what actually happens in the bedroom. It's kind of hard to keep enjoying sex out of 'agreement', week in/out.


I guess everyone has their own definition. RD (to me) means that your SO does not reject you whenever you try to initiate unless it is on an agreed upon schedule. I am not saying she should always say yes, but it sounds like 100% guaranteed for example that if Alex tried to initiate any day during the week he will be shot down.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> No I'm with @alexm here. That's my w too. Only at night in bed etc. No sexuality otherwise. Sleep over everything else.


I would say that is different from my W, who I consider to fit more of the RD definition. She never rejects me, would be glad to have whatever sex life possible as long as I take practically full responsibility for (which means I have to initiate, the moment I stop initiating we will easily go 1 month or more without sex).


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I guess everyone has their own definition. RD (to me) means that your SO does not reject you whenever you try to initiate unless it is on an agreed upon schedule. I am not saying she should always say yes, but it sounds like 100% guaranteed for example that if Alex tried to initiate any day during the week he will be shot down.




Exactly. Responsive is the key element. If she's only responsive once a week it's not responsive desire. 


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Exactly. Responsive is the key element. If she's only responsive once a week it's not responsive desire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She's responsive when she feels she _can_ be responsive, given her life/work/schedule/responsibilities. That's my interpretation of it anyway and I could be wrong.
Out of curiosity: what would happen if you _asked_ her explicitly whether you could have sex with her on a Wednesday once (if she has the time) and if she would explicitly disallow it?

My perception is (and I could be wrong) that she is not that type of 'controlling' personality.

My understanding is that he also does not like the fact that she is 'responsive' in the first place (as in, he would prefer it if she found ways to show him, that sex *to her* is at least as important as it is to him. What does this mean in practice: it seems the only way for him to feel this, would be if she initiated sex at more frequent intervals than him, otherwise she will forever remain _responsive_ in his eyes which he is not that keen on. It is not a small thing to ask/expect to change in her personality, and IMV debatable whether it is reasonable too, given risks of breaking something that sort of works for both already, because it requires some expectation of rewiring of her personality from her part).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Couldn't disagree more.
> 
> I think you guys are missing a key element here.


I don't think there is a right or wrong here. We all appear to have slightly different definitions of RD. My interpretation of RD does not fit with rejection or having sex only when the "RD" is in control of the situation.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I already responded that this is not the case. No issues of control.
> 
> BUT that may be some people's issue here - the perception that this is about control.
> 
> ...




I'm a little confused because you seem to be talking about your wife on Alex's thread. Anyway I don't believe Alex's wife is RD because most of the time she's not responsive which is a key element. Rather I think she's just a common low drive gatekeeper. 


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I already responded that this is not the case. No issues of control.
> 
> BUT that may be some people's issue here - the perception that this is about control.
> 
> ...


No worries. Like I said, under what I consider RD I don't feel Alex's wife fits under this. If you have a different definition of RD you will likely draw a different conclusion.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm a little confused because you seem to be talking about your wife on Alex's thread. Anyway I don't believe Alex's wife is RD because most of the time she's not responsive which is a key element. Rather I think she's just a common low drive gatekeeper.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


RD doesn't automatically imply you have no control over *it* (and will always respond 'uncontrollably'), nor does it mean that having control over her own desire means that she is trying to have control over Alexm or their sex life. Sorry, what am I missing/what is so complicated about it?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I would say that is different from my W, who I consider to fit more of the RD definition. She never rejects me, would be glad to have whatever sex life possible as long as I take practically full responsibility for (which means I have to initiate, the moment I stop initiating we will easily go 1 month or more without sex).


Let me add my take on Responsive Desire.

A woman can have RD (I have no idea how RD might play out with men), whether she gives it a chance to work is another question.

If a woman has RD but thinks that she should only have sex when she has spontaneous desire, that's a problem. If she gave her partner a chance to get her in the mood, she'd enjoy sex but she's unwilling to begin a sexual encounter if she isn't already feeling desire. In this case, the solution is to convince her to give her RD a chance to respond.

Many women (especially in LTRs) have RD. However, those men who expect their wife to demonstrate the same spontaneous desire they have still aren't going to be happy. I think that the whole "men and women's sexuality are exactly the same" meme has caused many men to have unrealistic expectations.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> Let me add my take on Responsive Desire.
> 
> A woman can have RD (I have no idea how RD might play out with men)


Premature E? :wink2:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm a little confused because you seem to be talking about your wife on Alex's thread. Anyway I don't believe Alex's wife is RD because most of the time she's not responsive which is a key element. Rather I think she's just a common low drive gatekeeper.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think that Alex's wife may well be RD, but she thinks it's wrong to begin a sexual experience if she's not feeling desire. Scheduling it for Saturday night gives her a chance to get herself to desire it. 

I believe that she thinks it's wrong to have sex if she doesn't feel the desire at the moment, that it's somehow unfair or a situation where she's being "used".


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I think that Alex's wife may well be RD, but she thinks it's wrong to begin a sexual experience if she's not feeling desire. Scheduling it for Saturday night gives her a chance to get herself to desire it.
> 
> *I believe that she thinks it's wrong to have sex if she doesn't feel the desire at the moment, that it's somehow unfair or a situation where she's being "used".*


I wonder Alex, have you had conversations with your W about the bolded, maybe to get a better understanding about why on the "non scheduled" days sex is a no go (i.e. she only equates having sex with having the desire at that moment). This would seem to fit in with what you have posted here.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I think that Alex's wife may well be RD, but she thinks it's wrong to begin a sexual experience if she's not feeling desire. Scheduling it for Saturday night gives her a chance to get herself to desire it.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that she thinks it's wrong to have sex if she doesn't feel the desire at the moment, that it's somehow unfair or a situation where she's being "used".




That's an assumption she may not be so happy with.
I thought she indicated it's due to their schedules and that her mind is focused on more/other things during the week.
Why make it more complicated?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

So many interpretations. And yet not a single person here seems to want to listen to or believe what comes straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak).

:scratchhead:

No wonder people have so many problems in their marriages.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.,


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Let me add my take on Responsive Desire.
> 
> A woman can have RD (I have no idea how RD might play out with men), whether she gives it a chance to work is another question.
> 
> ...


This is what I think, and experience, in my own marriage. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> This is what I think, and experience, in my own marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I think to ignore and not be able to discuss certain fundamental common traits and differences between women's and men's sexuality (due to political correctness maybe, I am not sure what the reasons are) seems to me one of the primary reasons why both sexes often don't manage to come to some sort of agreement/compromise quicker.
Likewise is the inability for LDs to understand and relate to the mechanics of an HD spouse (and vice versa).
We are all somewhat 'autistic' in that sense and just lack a certain amount of empathy which creates these large voids and misunderstandings between partners.
It seems so obvious from the outside yet I have been in these situations so many times myself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I think to ignore and not be able to discuss certain fundamental common traits and differences between women's and men's sexuality (due to political correctness maybe, I am not sure what the reasons are) seems to me one of the primary reasons why both sexes often don't manage to come to some sort of agreement/compromise quicker.


I agree with this. It is one reason Dug and I are not on the equality bandwagon. Needs are not necessarily equal.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> That's pretty dismissive TBH. The Inability to convey ideas based on unfamiliar assumptions is the root cause of many marital communication problems. Your dismissal of conversation needed to clarify and understand is s good example of poor communication imo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @wild jade being dismissive!!!????

Say it ain't so.........


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> That's pretty dismissive TBH. The Inability to convey ideas based on unfamiliar assumptions is the root cause of many marital communication problems. Your dismissal of conversation needed to clarify and understand is s good example of poor communication imo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not dismissing conversation aimed at understanding at all. Not for a minute.

I'm just wondering why no one wants to listen to the one person who is actually the subject of all of this conversation and "insight".


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I think to ignore and not be able to discuss certain fundamental common traits and differences between women's and men's sexuality (due to political correctness maybe, I am not sure what the reasons are) seems to me one of the primary reasons why both sexes often don't manage to come to some sort of agreement/compromise quicker.
> Likewise is the inability for LDs to understand and relate to the mechanics of an HD spouse (and vice versa).
> We are all somewhat 'autistic' in that sense and just lack a certain amount of empathy which creates these large voids and misunderstandings between partners.
> It seems so obvious from the outside yet I have been in these situations so many times myself.


I agree with this, but would add that with this "autism" seems to come with a tendency to pigeon-hole people into one's own categories, experiences, and perspectives, rather than just listening to what they actually have to say.

The power of listening shouldn't be underestimated.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I agree with this, but would add that with this "autism" seems to come with a tendency to pigeon-hole people into one's own categories, experiences, and perspectives, rather than just listening to what they actually have to say.
> 
> The power of listening shouldn't be underestimated.


Oh no, one shouldn't pigeon hole anything ever (or try to avoid it as much as possible). I don't think that discussing similarities/differences specific to gender means this though. (Not for me anyway).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I'm not dismissing conversation aimed at understanding at all. Not for a minute.
> 
> I'm just wondering why no one wants to listen to the one person who is actually the subject of all of this conversation and "insight".


You do mean his wife right? Unfortunately she is not present in this conversation...It is one of the challenges here on TAM I find to decipher the 'real' meaning when everything is presented through a subjective lens of the person presenting a problem concerning *two* people.
You then offer your own interpretation and so the story goes. Just like Chinese whispers.
I don't mean to say that one should be distrusting of what is being told, just that you have to first strip everything off from emotions and tone and try to get to the facts and see if they seem different to you than the OP. 
That's really what these forums are supposed to do I thought? Provide a 'fresh' perspective?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> You do mean his wife right? Unfortunately she is not present in this conversation...It is one of the challenges here on TAM I find to decipher the 'real' meaning when everything is presented through a subjective lens of the person presenting a problem concerning *two* people.
> You then offer your own interpretation and so the story goes. Just like Chinese whispers.
> I don't mean to say that one should be distrusting of what is being told, just that you have to first strip everything off from emotions and tone and try to get to the facts and see if they seem different to you than the OP.
> That's really what these forums are supposed to do I thought? Provide a 'fresh' perspective?


Yes, @alexm's wife. And no, she isn't here, but according to alexm, she told him quite specifically that she is asexual, has no drive at all, and never has. 

Alexm, of course, says he does not believe this. I asked him why not, as from my reckoning, it actually explains her behavior quite well. He chose not to answer, but instead went back to insisting that she used to have a drive, she used to be "free" with other guys, and speculating that she shut down with him because those past guys hurt her. 

And then, all sorts of labels -- "responsive", "submissive", "complex", -- have been applied to her to explain her behavior because "most women". But none of them work very well. As @EllisRedding and @WorkingOnMe pointed out, she isn't actually responsive. And as alexm himself has said in some posts, she isn't particularly submissive. Certainly him using that analogy of being like a dog spelled out that she's probably the one with the most power in that relationship. And to my mind, there's nothing more simple than just taking her at her word that she is asexual and has no real drive for sex. 

There's noting wrong with offering fresh perspectives or sharing our experiences. It's actually fascinating to read and quite instructive about all sorts of things. What it doesn't do is give us a better explanation of alexm's wife than what she has already told him straight up. At least, IMHO. And I wonder why no one wants to actually consider that she just is who she says she is.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ah ok I now understand where you are coming from. But how do you reconcile her behaviour? That she enjoys having sex every time they do it, at least as much as him if not more (i don't think that's something very typical for an asexual). That she initiates sex with him quite frequently it seems (by hopping into bed naked first), not to mention the many multiple O's? That she bumps up the frequency of sex when on holidays etc.
Those are facts as far as I can tell. But it's possible it is all imagined too, I'm not disputing that.
It would be interesting to know in which context she told him that she feels that she is asexual.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I actually don't think it's a listening problem. I just left a meeting at work - with another high iq person - and I don't think he understood what we were saying though we spent 90 minutes going over the same think many differ t ways.
> 
> The problem is assumptions and perceptions. We can only experience our own lives and some are more empathetic and some THINK they're more empathetic... but it's still only a point of reference.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong. Of course you should share your experiences. And if alexm can turn things around the same way you did, well, that would be great and you will have done a great service.

When I said that about listening, I was referring very specifically to what we have learned about alexm's wife from her own perspective. Admittedly, it's not a whole lot to go on, but it is actually pretty instructive and, I think, worth listening to. At least as long as we're still talking about her.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Ah ok I now understand where you are coming from. But how do you reconcile her behaviour? That she enjoys having sex every time they do it, at least as much as him if not more (i don't think that's something very typical for an asexual). That she initiates sex with him quite frequently it seems (by hopping into bed naked first), not to mention the many multiple O's? That she bumps up the frequency of sex when on holidays etc.
> Those are facts as far as I can tell. But it's possible it is all imagined too, I'm not disputing that.
> It would be interesting to know in which context she told him that she feels that she is asexual.
> 
> ...


There isn't really isn't anything to reconcile here. Asexuals are just as capable of achieving orgasm and having pleasurable sex as anyone else. They aren't "broken", and there are many different reasons to have sex -- beyond urge and attraction. 

But that said, I get what you're saying, and that's why I asked alexm why he doesn't believe her. I assume he has some good reason, but at the same time, it actually does provide a very simple explanation of why she is the way she is about sex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Yes, @alexm's wife. And no, she isn't here, but according to alexm, she told him quite specifically that she is asexual, has no drive at all, and never has.
> 
> Alexm, of course, says he does not believe this. I asked him why not, as from my reckoning, it actually explains her behavior quite well. He chose not to answer, but instead went back to insisting that she used to have a drive, she used to be "free" with other guys, and speculating that she shut down with him because those past guys hurt her.
> 
> ...


I've always assumed what she has shared with Alex was true as well. And all of her actions line up with what she has told him.

She does enjoy sex when they have it, which seems to be the point of contention for people who say "then she CAN'T be asexual!"

Being asexual does not mean the same thing as sexually dysfunctional. Many asexual people have sex and enjoy it when it happens.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Quoted from AVEN:

Can asexuals have successful romantic relationships with sexuals?

Yes. The tension between the sexual partner's expectations and the asexual partner's needs can be very difficult to work with in some relationships, and many asexuals consider success so unlikely that they prefer not to date sexuals at all, but successful mixed relationships do exist. Some of these relationships are completely sexless; *in others, the asexual partner "compromises" by having sex occasionally under certain circumstances*; in others, both partners experiment with pseudosexual behavior and find things that work for both of them. Like with any other compatibility issue in a relationship, the key is to establish excellent communication, so that both partners can know and respect the other's situation.

The Asexual Visibility and Education Network | asexuality.org


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> There isn't really isn't anything to reconcile here. Asexuals are just as capable of achieving orgasm and having pleasurable sex as anyone else. They aren't "broken", and there are many different reasons to have sex -- beyond urge and attraction.
> 
> 
> 
> But that said, I get what you're saying, and that's why I asked alexm why he doesn't believe her. I assume he has some good reason, but at the same time, it actually does provide a very simple explanation of *why she is the way she is about sex.*




But which way is she? (is the question)
She may well be asexual: there are many definitions and spectrums on the net and by some definitions, 95% of women may well be asexual (fair enough!). Asexuality is not a particularly well understood subject in any case.
I think most of my posts were about Alexm's attitude and perception of his wife rather than his wife's sexuality. It didn't strike me like their 'arrangement' was particularly unreasonable from his first post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Quoted from AVEN:
> 
> Can asexuals have successful romantic relationships with sexuals?
> 
> ...




Yes I do know about these definitions (and posted that link myself further up, I think). But what is the ultimate test to 'diagnose' her as an asexual?
I am aware of all the things an asexual CAN experience (which seems everything, EXCEPT sexual attraction). I'm more interested in what an asexual can't experience and how to determine one is actually asexual.

_How Can I Tell?
If you want to know if you’re asexual, ask yourself the following question: “Do I feel sexual attraction?” If the answer is “No”, you’re asexual. The problem with that question is that “sexual attraction” is a vague phrase. It’s difficult to say that you’ve never felt something, if you don’t know what that something feels like.

If you’re still unsure, here is a list of questions to help guide your thoughts. They’re not meant as a checklist to “diagnose” asexuality, rather, they describe feelings that many asexual people have had.

Are you generally disinterested in sex?
Is your interest in sex more scientific than emotional?
Do you feel left out or confused when others discuss sex?
If you had sex, did you think it was dull or boring, and not the amazing experience other people made it out to be?
Have you ever had to pretend to be interested in someone in order to fit in?
Have you ever felt “broken” because you don’t experience sexual feelings like those around you?
Have you ever felt that you were straight “by default” or that you were bi or pan because you were equally (dis)interested in all genders? 
Have you ever gone out with someone or had sex because you felt “that’s what you’re supposed to do?”
If you want to know if someone else is asexual, you have to talk to them about it. There are no outward signs of asexuality, and you shouldn’t attempt to label someone else against their will._



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I'm pretty sure there are a number of things in that list where his wife does not fit at all...But I'll let Alexm answer that...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> But which way is she? (is the question)
> She may well be asexual: there are many definitions and spectrums on the net and *by some definitions, 95% of women may well be asexual (fair enough!).* Asexuality is not a particularly well understood subject in any case.
> I think most of my posts were about Alexm's attitude and perception of his wife rather than his wife's sexuality. It didn't strike me like their 'arrangement' was particularly unreasonable from his first post.
> 
> ...


LOL. Which definitions would those be?

Most women are sexual. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, recent research indicates women are more sexual than men are.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Yes I do know about these definitions (and posted that link myself further up, I think). But what is the ultimate test to 'diagnose' her as an asexual?


I wouldn't presume to diagnose her. I would just be inclined to take her at her word.

It's up to her, after all, to define her own self.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> LOL. Which definitions would those be?
> 
> 
> 
> Most women are sexual. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, recent research indicates women are more sexual than men are.




Any woman who is currently not in a relationship with anyone (and therefore not attracted to anyone) could by some definition be asexual. Any woman who is not as attracted to their partner as much as their husband to them, could by some definition be classified as asexual.
And finally: any woman who claims to be asexual, is asexual. Whether she is asexual or not 
You cannot 'diagnose' anyone as an asexual nor scientifically show that one is asexual (according to the articles I have read), therefore the conversation is kind of futile and probably me even typing this is intolerant and ignorant of asexuals....



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I wouldn't presume to diagnose her. I would just be inclined to take her at her word.
> 
> 
> 
> It's up to her, after all, to define her own self.




Ok I understand that. So if Alexm comes up to his wife and says "I want to have sex with you now, it's a Wednesday" and she says "I don't want to, I'm asexual on Wednesdays*" I'm not sure that helps me understand the situation much better. Maybe it does. That's why I asked him in what context his wife mentioned that she felt she was asexual.

(*And before anyone says that I'm being ignorant, it would be good to ask his wife if she feels attracted/sexual towards Alexm on Saturdays...).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've always assumed what she has shared with Alex was true as well. And all of her actions line up with what she has told him.
> 
> 
> 
> She does enjoy sex when they have it, which seems to be the point of contention for people who say "then she CAN'T be asexual!"



Yes and she also _wants_ to have sex with him on certain days of the week or the times when Alexm skips the time when she expects to have sex with him (further up the thread).
Of course that could be another thing that asexuals do, it's difficult to know.



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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> But "agreed upon" may be Alexm's perspective/perception of the situation. It may not necessarily be his wife's perspective or how she feels about it, judging of what actually happens in the bedroom. It's kind of hard to keep enjoying sex out of 'agreement', week in/out.


Yeah, I was going to say this. As I'm not responsive desire, I don't really understand the concept of it. I get excited before I want sex. Some people do not. I can tell you this is exactly how she is - excitement (ie. horniness) comes afterwards.

Bottom line - limiting herself to the weekend (mainly Saturday) gives little room for responsive desire in the way you're thinking. It's 'planned', going to happen, etc. so there's never really a chance for me to even try to get a response.

Years ago, before this whole schedule thing, this is how sex always worked. She never initiated. I did. And she was responsive whatever % of the time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Yes I do know about these definitions (and posted that link myself further up, I think). But what is the ultimate test to 'diagnose' her as an asexual?
> I am aware of all the things an asexual CAN experience (which seems everything, EXCEPT sexual attraction). I'm more interested in what an asexual can't experience and how to determine one is actually asexual.
> 
> _How Can I Tell?
> ...




The other thing is that there are women (on this forum and outside) who say categorically that they would NOT be able to have sex with a partner if they weren't sexually attracted to them which blurs the waters even more.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> I wonder Alex, have you had conversations with your W about the bolded, maybe to get a better understanding about why on the "non scheduled" days sex is a no go (i.e. she only equates having sex with having the desire at that moment). This would seem to fit in with what you have posted here.


Hard to say.

But, I would say that it's a combination of what Buddy said, and the usual (often legit) reasons of tiredness, timing, etc.

Look, we have had sex during the week. I've obviously made this out to sound like it's been Saturdays only for several years. We're talking once every ~3 months, so for the sake of all of this - it's Saturdays.

If you want the breakdown, it's something like this:

Monthly - 4-5 times total
Weekday - once every 2-3 months
Saturday - 2-3 times per month
Friday/Sunday - 2 times per month
Instances in which there's sex (of any kind) more than once in a 7 day period - once every 2-3 months


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Quoted from AVEN:
> 
> Can asexuals have successful romantic relationships with sexuals?
> 
> ...




Ok so having sex every week (and sometimes few times in a week) does not sound like 'occasionally' to me.
You wouldn't say: "they are having sex occasionally every week". You'd say "they are having sex _regularly_ every week".

Unless I'm misunderstanding something.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> Yes, @alexm's wife. And no, she isn't here, but according to alexm, she told him quite specifically that she is asexual, has no drive at all, and never has.
> 
> Alexm, of course, says he does not believe this. I asked him why not, as from my reckoning, it actually explains her behavior quite well. He chose not to answer, but instead went back to insisting that she used to have a drive, she used to be "free" with other guys, and speculating that she shut down with him because those past guys hurt her.
> 
> ...


Listen, I don't _not_ want to believe my wife is asexual. It's not that I don't believe her, it's that I genuinely don't see it. It is also not something I've said to her - I've never said I don't believe her (nor would I).

All I can say about this subject is that she once read a brief article about it, said "hey, that sounds like me!" and it's never been addressed again (nor researched by her, or anything).

What she labels herself as is not for me to contest or argue. I would never do that.

I'm not an expert, I know that. But what I see is not asexuality. What I see, firsthand, and have gleaned from her past relationships and activities, is responsive desire. She genuinely likes sex. She's not faking it.

Yes, asexual people can enjoy sex as well, I know that.

What I see is somebody who has no external interest in sex unless, and until, it's literally seconds away from happening. Then it's all systems go.

I gave this analogy many pages ago, about how I used to be a classic binge drinker. I literally had no desire to drink until (ironically enough) the weekend, and it was in front of me. School, work and other responsibilities completely removed my desire or "need" for alcohol. Once I was free of those pesky things, I raged. Otherwise, NO desire.

What my wife doesn't do is get spontaneously aroused. Your average person does. Most of us do. Not having that ability doesn't = asexuality.

Excitement - stimulation - orgasm - resolution. This is how we think of the sexual cycle. In RD, the first two are pretty much reversed. In my wife's case, this is bang on. The excitement is absolutely there, provided stimulation comes first.

Obviously, when someone has those first two 'backwards', the decision whether or not to proceed is simple, and often based on something as innocuous as what else needs to be done, how tired they are, how much sleep will they lose, are the kids still up, my back hurts, etc etc etc.

Whereas, us average folks tend to push all that away, because our excitement takes over everything else in our brain. All of those other things don't get matter.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> All I can say about this subject is that she once read a brief article about it, said "hey, that sounds like me!" and it's never been addressed again (nor researched by her, or anything).


Really? That was it? And you never discussed it with her again? OK I remember all of that differently, which is probably simply because we all talked for 145 pages about it. :laugh:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Listen, I don't _not_ want to believe my wife is asexual. It's not that I don't believe her, it's that I genuinely don't see it. It is also not something I've said to her - I've never said I don't believe her (nor would I).
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say about this subject is that she once read a brief article about it, said "hey, it sounds like me!"



Of course it does. I have just spent reading about it on 29 different websites and at least half of them make it sound exactly like me too. (I'm now by myself, wife in another room and am not attracted to anyone right now, especially after reading it).

(I don't dispute that asexuality does not exist or that it is not an issue for some).



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> What my wife doesn't do is get spontaneously aroused. Your average person does. Most of us do. Not having that ability doesn't = asexuality.


Actually, asexuals apparently *do* have the ability to be spontaneously aroused (now I am an expert! :smthumbup: and also mildly insane). 
It's just not aimed at their partner. It's 'aimless' or aimed at whoever they want it to be aimed. 

An Asexual?s Guide To ? Arousal | Asexuality Archive

_*Can an asexual get aroused?*

For the most part, yes. Arousal is a physical response, and it does not require sexual attraction. Aces may be less likely to become aroused in certain situations (for instance, when someone who’s “hot” walks by), but if an asexual cannot get aroused at all, then there is likely something other than asexuality at work and consulting a doctor might be in order.

*But doesn’t arousal mean someone isn’t asexual?*

Of course not! Arousal in no way contradicts, counteracts, or invalidates asexuality. One of the triggers of sexual arousal is sexual attraction, but there are countless other triggers that have nothing to do with attraction of any kind. Arousal does not mean that someone is thinking about sex, wants sex, or has experienced sexual attraction. It just means that certain body parts are exhibiting their typical functionality.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to become aroused.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to want to become aroused.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to enjoy being aroused.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to take steps to become aroused.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to become aroused by someone else.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to not want to become aroused.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to be curious about arousal.

It’s perfectly fine for an asexual to not care about arousal.

We’re not going to take away your Ace Club Membership Card if you’re ever aroused, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise (particularly if that someone is not asexual themselves).
*
How can I tell if I’m aroused?*

If you’re wet and/or hard downstairs, it’s a good bet you’re aroused._


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> What my wife doesn't do is get spontaneously aroused. Your average person does. Most of us do. Not having that ability doesn't = asexuality.
> 
> Excitement - stimulation - orgasm - resolution. This is how we think of the sexual cycle. In RD, the first two are pretty much reversed. In my wife's case, this is bang on. The excitement is absolutely there, provided stimulation comes first.


Can I ask you something: when your wife is sitting in bed naked, waiting for you to come and have sex with her, how can you *know* she is not aroused at *that* point already?

The things is, when we have sex, we feel connected (ideally), that's when we are most aware of what the other person is feeling. *But not before that.* Have you never thought that because this connection is not yet established, you therefore may be assuming that she is not feeling the stuff she is 'supposed' to be feeling?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Really? That was it? And you never discussed it with her again? OK I remember all of that differently, which is probably simply because we all talked for 145 pages about it. :laugh:


lol, you know what I mean. Slight exaggeration, but that was the gist of it. Other than that one time that we discussed the subject, it's never been brought up again. It was me who read about, researched, and discussed it (here).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> Can I ask you something: when your wife is sitting in bed naked, waiting for you to come and have sex with her, how can you *know* she is not aroused at *that* point already?


That's a fair point, and not one that I would be able to answer properly, I don't think.

The best way to explain it would be that she's 'ready', rather than horny/aroused. It's not, as far as I can tell, because of something I've done, the way I look, or other ways that people tend to get sexually excited about.

If I walked into the bedroom to find her naked, waiting, and I said "let's cuddle instead" - she wouldn't be upset. She wouldn't be frustrated that she's not going to get any. She'd be just as, if not more so, happy with cuddling. On the other hand, she wouldn't be relieved that she doesn't "have to" have sex, either - it's not like that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> That's a fair point, and not one that I would be able to answer properly, I don't think.
> 
> The best way to explain it would be that she's 'ready', rather than horny/aroused. It's not, *as far as I can tell,* because of something I've done, the way I look, or other ways that people tend to get sexually excited about.


Sorry, I don't mean to be drilling into your brain too much (and I do it with myself too because I often have exactly the same thoughts and insecurities): but what, in your mind is the distinction between 'ready' and aroused? And how can you be sure that *you* don't figure in that equation?
Here's an exercise (and I am sure wild jade will approve): next time she is sitting in bed naked and 'ready', ask her whether she finds you sexually attractive (or why not just ask her during normal day hours). It should, in theory, put your mind at rest. But I suspect it won't.




alexm said:


> If I walked into the bedroom to find her naked, waiting, and I said "let's cuddle instead" - she wouldn't be upset. She wouldn't be frustrated that she's not going to get any. She'd be just as, if not more so, happy with cuddling. On the other hand, she wouldn't be relieved that she doesn't "have to" have sex, either - it's not like that.


Try it next time she is all 'ready' or a few times in a row. I know there will be an opportunity cost no HD man would want to give up but you are again assuming that it won't matter to her at all.

Look, I don't want to make it sound like she is exactly the same as you. Nobody is or can be. Everyone is a little different and it's ok. But it doesn't have to mean many of the extra things and qualities and feelings you ascribe her as a possible explanation nor does it mean she is necessarily asexual, just because she read something on the internet.
I was once convinced I had the ebola virus after I read about it on the internet.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I'm not sure how any of this helps Alex in the long run. Isn't the issue: his wife has decided that she's not going to participate in any kind of sexual intimacy, even flirting, except for her predetermined window of times once a week? And that it's creating a problem for him because their ENTIRE sexual relationship is on her terms only?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I'm not sure how any of this helps Alex in the long run. Isn't the issue: his wife has decided that she's not going to participate in any kind of sexual intimacy, even flirting, except for her predetermined window of times once a week? And that it's creating a problem for him because their ENTIRE sexual relationship is on her terms only?


I didn't get the impression it was that extreme. But I also am aware of not trying to sugar coat the issue.

I also didn't get the impression that 'she refuses to flirt with him'. She may not do it as much as he'd like her to or he may not notice when she is doing it or she may not be doing it at all (for example because she is just not a flirtatious type of personality. My wife for example doesn't think of herself as flirtatious at all).

All this is _quite_ different from saying that 'she is *refusing* or decided not to flirt'. The latter implies some malicious intent. Alexm was quite clear that he doesn't believe she is doing (or not doing) any of those things on purpose.

Sorry if I am mis representing it. What do you feel will help him?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure how any of this helps Alex in the long run. Isn't the issue: his wife has decided that she's not going to participate in any kind of sexual intimacy, even flirting, except for her predetermined window of times once a week? And that it's creating a problem for him because their ENTIRE sexual relationship is on her terms only?
> ...


I'm pretty sure she shut down anything remotely sexual except for the window, and that they are basically like roommates aside from the allotted time. Maybe he will reply and let us know if I'm recalling that accurately, apologies if I'm not.

I don't know what will help. Aside from having a heart to heart with her that living like this forever isn't meeting his needs... and hoping she cares about that statement.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Listen, I don't _not_ want to believe my wife is asexual. It's not that I don't believe her, it's that I genuinely don't see it. It is also not something I've said to her - I've never said I don't believe her (nor would I).
> 
> All I can say about this subject is that she once read a brief article about it, said "hey, that sounds like me!" and it's never been addressed again (nor researched by her, or anything).
> 
> What she labels herself as is not for me to contest or argue. I would never do that.


Oh, okay. The way you said it upthread, it sounded a whole lot more definitive than all of that. 

Still, it strikes me as instructive. There really aren't all that many people who would read about asexuality and immediately think that it sounded exactly like them.

And her lack of interest in researching the issue rather drives that point home, don't you think?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> The other thing is that there are women (on this forum and outside) who say categorically that they would NOT be able to have sex with a partner if they weren't sexually attracted to them which blurs the waters even more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is what I mean about pigeon-holing. It really doesn't matter what other women say categorically. It matters what the individual woman in question thinks. And a lot of women can easily have sex without sexual attraction.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Any woman who is currently not in a relationship with anyone (and therefore not attracted to anyone) could by some definition be asexual. Any woman who is not as attracted to their partner as much as their husband to them, could by some definition be classified as asexual.
> And finally: any woman who claims to be asexual, is asexual. Whether she is asexual or not
> You cannot 'diagnose' anyone as an asexual nor scientifically show that one is asexual (according to the articles I have read), therefore the conversation is kind of futile and probably me even typing this is intolerant and ignorant of asexuals....
> 
> ...


Not sure why you think any woman not currently in a relationship is "therefore" not attracted to anyone. All the single women I know have plenty of attractions all over the place, as did I when I was in that position. 

I also can't fathom why you would think merely having a lower drive makes one asexual. That would mean in most every couple there is at least one asexual person -- which makes no sense at all to me.

Personally, I've no interest in diagnosing anyone as asexual ... but if that is how they identify, then I think we should believe them. And honestly, while there are definitely quite a few people who do identify this way (only some of them women, btw), it is actually quite a small proportion of the population.

We're talking at most 10%, probably less, including both men and women. Certainly not 95% of women.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> This is what I mean about pigeon-holing. It really doesn't matter what other women say categorically. It matters what the individual woman in question thinks. And a lot of women can easily have sex without sexual attraction.


Yes, but by bringing up the example I am not saying that it applies to all women. I am saying that there are women where the definitions to establish whether they are sexual or asexual (according to the 'common' understanding of asexuality) are impossible to reconcile. In other words, what I am saying is that using a blanket assertion that someone is asexual, is in fact pigeon holing in itself by trying to squeeze in everyone into that category who has some perceived 'abnormality'. There seem to be a myriad of exceptions and variations on the theme of asexuality. I am trying to *avoid* pigeon-holing by starting with the assumption that his wife is not in fact an asexual first.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Not sure why you think any woman not currently in a relationship is "therefore" not attracted to anyone. All the single women I know have plenty of attractions all over the place, as did I when I was in that position.
> 
> I also can't fathom why you would think merely having a lower drive makes one asexual. That would mean in most every couple there is at least one asexual person -- which makes no sense at all to me.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I am not sure I made it clear why I posted the above in the first place: because most of it made no sense to me either, for precisely the reasons you outlined. I just passed on the information from the websites. I have no particular opinion on asexuality or how it is identified precisely.

If you do some further reading on asexuality, you may find the same (or you may not. Maybe it's just me).

The point is: asexuality can only be self-identified.

The other point is: you still seem to think his wife is asexual whereas her behaviour seems to clearly indicate that it is not within the 'guidelines' of an asexual. 

The other other point is: I don't for a minute doubt there aren't any 'true' asexuals. She just doesn't fit the profile (based on the definitions from the website). However if the criteria is self-identification and if it is enough to be classed as asexual, then she *is* asexual. 

See the loop there?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Oh, okay. The way you said it upthread, it sounded a whole lot more definitive than all of that.
> 
> Still, it strikes me as instructive. There really aren't all that many people who would read about asexuality and immediately think that it sounded exactly like them.


I thought it could apply to me too, easily. I had a girlfriend and I was unable to feel any sexual attraction or to make myself feel attracted towards her. I felt asexual. 



wild jade said:


> And her lack of interest in researching the issue rather drives that point home, don't you think?


With me it's the opposite: if I feel something is ringing a bell, I tend to research more about it. Not dismiss/ignore it or move to something else to never think about it again...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Just last thought about the whole being 'asexual' saga:
it is supposed to be a sexual orientation (so far so good), however, if you think about it:
- if you are homosexual: you _feel_ sexual attraction to the same sex and it can be easily identified by yourself and others when, for example, a man has sex with a man
- if you are heterosexual: you _feel _sexual attraction to the opposite sex and it can be easily identified...blah blah
- bisexual: both sexes etc

However if you are of the asexual variety:
- it's about the _absence of attraction_ (a negative). It has to be self-identified and cannot really be verified independently, made more complicated that you can still feel sexual arousal (which is not the same as attraction), it just isn't necessarily aimed at your partner...Plus logic would dictate that it could at least be identified by the absence of sex. But this is again a no-no assumption, when it comes to understanding asexuality...

(I wonder if one can still be an asexual homosexual for example?)

Ok so in what way is this relevant: basically even if we all agree that Alexm's wife is asexual, it doesn't really make anything any clearer IMV (what _kind_ of asexual is she? What compromises can they reach or is it reasonable to expect them to reach? and so on). Although it might possibly stop the thread from getting longer :wink2:


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

This whole a-sexual thing is a red herring. If you are 18 or 22 or 25 in a relatively new relationship with someone you have a romantic interest in, and don't want to have sex - you may be a-sexual. 

If you were plenty sexual in the past and are less sexual now, even hardly / if ever want sex, you haven't magically turned into an a-sexual. You have no libido, might be a reason for it, might be the mostly normal female drive overtime curve or maybe it just is. 

Seems to me it is like the main sequence of star development. The average female has an innate desire to have kids. She wants to get married, that involves a hunt for a mate, she's biologically driven to get in the game which involves sex. Mate captured, less sex. Time to have kids - gotta ****. Want to have another kid? Gotta keep his interest. Last child conceived? Less sex. If you had trouble getting on that main sequence from the beginning maybe you are a-sexual. If you were on it happily and the slope of your line is just steeper than 'normal' you weren't a-sexual, find another excuse or reason. My husband was an inconsiderate ******* is a reason. I am a-sexual is an excuse . 

It's just a convenient excuse I'm sure any number of LD partners will grab on to if presented with the definition to explain to you what you find un-explainable. Just like I bet it is extremely common to be labeled a 'sex fiend' or something similar when the inevitable conflict comes up in the desire mismatched relationship over the universal SLA of once a month if you are lucky.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@inmyprime

I guess I don't quite understand your emphasis on verification. If a friend of yours tells you he is gay, or that she is attracted to men, you would just believe them, no? When you tell me that you didn't feel attraction for that particular gf, I believed you, and really don't need you to prove your absence of attraction. I accept that you are quite capable of determining and reporting whether you are attracted to someone or not. I don't need to verify it.

Now, true, some people lack do self-awareness and/or hide from their true selves. So you do hear stories of, for example, people who are homosexual, but lie to themselves and the world about it because they don't want to be that way, or at least don't want to admit it. So maybe there are times when the self-report simply isn't true. But mostly, we assume that people actually just know who they are attracted to and who they are not. 

And typically, those who do hide the truth are those who are outside the norm because they fear being judged, excluded, or put down. If someone is openly admitting to falling outside the typical, it seems to me to be all the more likely that there is truth to it.

How does this help alexm? Well it gives him a baseline from which to explore further. It also might help him to understand why she is the way she is about sex.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> @inmyprime
> 
> I guess I don't quite understand your emphasis on verification. If a friend of yours tells you he is gay, or that she is attracted to men, you would just believe them, no? When you tell me that you didn't feel attraction for that particular gf, I believed you, and really don't need you to prove your absence of attraction. I accept that you are quite capable of determining and reporting whether you are attracted to someone or not. I don't need to verify it.
> 
> ...


It's not about believing/not believing. It's about understanding what it is they are talking about. And making sure *they* understand what it is they are talking about. Plus the people who come up with these terms understand what they are talking about and which group of people it exactly encompasses.

If a friend tells me he or she is gay of course I don't need to go and verify myself.  Asexuality as a sexual orientation is a new thing (which doesn't mean it invalidates it just that it is clearly open to misinterpretation). Homosexuality has been around for ages. Plus it is observed in animals too. Can my cat be asexual? I can only know if she tells me.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I guess that all in all, I just think it's probably more helpful to accept people at face value, at least somewhat, and go from there. More helpful than, say, insisting that they aren't or can't be that way, in order to feed your own resentment and frustration at them for not behaving the way you want them to.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I guess that all in all, I just think it's probably more helpful to accept people at face value, at least somewhat, and go from there. More helpful than, say, insisting that they aren't or can't be that way, in order to feed your own resentment and frustration at them for not behaving the way you want them to.




I completely agree. We just seem to arrive at this conclusion from slightly different places.


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## pushing50 (Aug 5, 2010)

Wow. For all sorts of reasons, I've found this to be one of the most helpful and fruitful discussions that I have run across at TAM.

I saw a lot of myself in here, and am taking away a more healthy perspective on my LDW.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Oh, okay. The way you said it upthread, it sounded a whole lot more definitive than all of that.
> 
> Still, it strikes me as instructive. There really aren't all that many people who would read about asexuality and immediately think that it sounded exactly like them.
> 
> And her lack of interest in researching the issue rather drives that point home, don't you think?


Also, in looking at the list of questions for "are you an asexual", Alex's wife has several items on that list, which I know based on many of Alex's threads and things she has said. For more reference, check out Alex's FML thread.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Livvie said:


> I'm pretty sure she shut down anything remotely sexual except for the window, and that they are basically like roommates aside from the allotted time. Maybe he will reply and let us know if I'm recalling that accurately, apologies if I'm not.
> 
> I don't know what will help. Aside from having a heart to heart with her that living like this forever isn't meeting his needs... and hoping she cares about that statement.


I wouldn't say we're roommates. And I wouldn't say she shut it down, either. It just doesn't happen? She's just not good at it? I just don't rev her engine?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> @inmyprime
> 
> I guess I don't quite understand your emphasis on verification. If a friend of yours tells you he is gay, or that she is attracted to men, you would just believe them, no? When you tell me that you didn't feel attraction for that particular gf, I believed you, and really don't need you to prove your absence of attraction. I accept that you are quite capable of determining and reporting whether you are attracted to someone or not. I don't need to verify it.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, and also with what @anonmd said - to a point.

What's going on with my marriage isn't all that uncommon. My over-analyzation of it, is :grin2:

I generally do think that many women (and a smaller percentage of men) have sex because you're 'supposed to', 'it's what you do', 'it's part of finding a mate' etc. I don't think it's often done maliciously or even consciously. It just is.

Frankly, sex is simply not that important to a certain amount of people - an amount that I think is probably higher than we've all realized.

Look, my wife likes sex, and she likes sex with me, specifically. Outside of the 'schedule', we will have sex when there's nothing else to do, for example. That's not sexy, but it does show that her schedule is not purely about SEX.

It's really just that sex is nowhere near the top of any priority list whatsoever. It's OKAY to be like that, generally speaking, but it's not okay for my side of the marriage.

And the reason for my issue is that I tend to prioritize her needs, feelings, desires, wishes, etc. - which is what, I think, a good partner should do. I don't prioritize them above my own at all times, I pick and choose, but nonetheless - an effort is made on my behalf to give her what she wants out of the marriage and the partnership, sometimes at a cost to myself. This is what marriage is supposed to be, IMO.

So asexuality - I don't see it. Severe lack of prioritization for my needs in this area - yes, absolutely.

While asexuality is a fascinating topic, can we please leave it out of this discussion? It's unfortunately become a catch-all diagnosis for people who are LD in ways that we can't quite categorize. Much like autism has become the go-to diagnosis for people who may have different social habits than others.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Also, in looking at the list of questions for "are you an asexual", Alex's wife has several items on that list, which I know based on many of Alex's threads and things she has said. For more reference, check out Alex's FML thread.


I have several items on that list, too, and I am most definitely not asexual :surprise:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> I have several items on that list, too, and I am most definitely not asexual :surprise:


Really? I'm really confused by that.

I know this doesn't mean anything, but here are my answers to the questions....

Are you generally disinterested in sex?

No.

Is your interest in sex more scientific than emotional?

No.

Do you feel left out or confused when others discuss sex?

No.

If you had sex, did you think it was dull or boring, and not the amazing experience other people made it out to be?

I thought it was dull or boring with certain partners, but I knew from experience that this didn't mean it would be that way with all partners.

Have you ever had to pretend to be interested in someone in order to fit in?

No but I have exaggerated my interest in someone in order to get to have sex with them.

Have you ever felt “broken” because you don’t experience sexual feelings like those around you?

No. 

Have you ever felt that you were straight “by default” or that you were bi or pan because you were equally (dis)interested in all genders? 

No, I've always known I am bi and have always been sexually interested in men and women, and occasionally, trans.

Have you ever gone out with someone or had sex because you felt “that’s what you’re supposed to do?”

Kind of, but it had more to do with really liking someone than trying to fit in. I still wanted to have the sex, though. I don't think I've ever had sex with anyone I didn't actually want to have (even if sometimes it wasn't good sex for me, I still wanted it at the time).

- - - - - -

I'm surprised to hear you say you have "several" of these items.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> While asexuality is a fascinating topic, can we please leave it out of this discussion? It's unfortunately become a catch-all diagnosis for people who are LD in ways that we can't quite categorize. Much like autism has become the go-to diagnosis for people who may have different social habits than others.


I am sorry, I saw this post after I posted the last one (about asexuality). I will stop.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I agree with this, and also with what @anonmd said - to a point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Then maybe she is autistic? ah, we have done this one already...

You don't think it's just the way many women's desire works (Being responsive) and you just not really liking it? 
I guess it's just saying the same thing slightly differently. Though for me, there's a distinction. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I have several items on that list, too, and I am most definitely not asexual :surprise:




You could be 


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I am sorry, I saw this post after I posted the last one (about asexuality). I will stop.


S'okay 

I would probably fit into the autism spectrum, myself, but I really don't feel I am. No more than anybody else, anyway.

And that's sort of what I'm getting at. I'm not autistic, but I have certain traits and qualities that might suggest so. I feel the same way about my wife in regards to asexuality.

I'm just saying that those two 'diagnoses' do tend to pop up a lot here.


So to answer the questions for my wife using only what I've seen, heard and observed:

_Are you generally disinterested in sex?_

Yes

_Is your interest in sex more scientific than emotional?_

No

_Do you feel left out or confused when others discuss sex?_

She has said she feels uncomfortable when others talk about sex, yes. But not squirmy-like. Probably like how I feel when people start talking about their work... She has also said she never got "the talk" when younger, and she also went to Catholic schools. Personally, I get the feeling she's uncomfortable about the subject because she's private, more than anything. AFAICT, she learned about sex by having sex, and learned about her body in the same way (not masturbating).

_If you had sex, did you think it was dull or boring, and not the amazing experience other people made it out to be?
_
Not that I can tell. But in all honesty, my wife is rarely super excited about things. As some of you know, she and I were each others firsts, then split up for about 15 years.

The first time we had sex, SHE was the one to pull me into my bedroom. She wanted to have sex, and I guess to lose her virginity. We had been dating a month, maybe. If it matters, it didn't really work, as we had no idea what we were doing. She wasn't aroused at all, so I wasn't able to really put it in. I suppose had she known about her body (ie. by masturbating) then it would have worked. In retrospect, she knew nothing about her body back then. We simply didn't know how it worked, other than 'penis in vagina'. Ah, youth.

The sex we had back then was dull and boring, because we didn't know what we were doing  When we reconnected all those years later, we had both learned a LOT. I imagine that, when she eventually DID have good sex with someone, it was an amazing experience. She never had an orgasm with me back in the day, and I asked her about that once because she's multi-orgasmic now. I don't remember the exact wording, but her first orgasm was unexpected, and I imagine it was an amazing experience. FWIW, she had no idea about the gspot, nor that some women could squirt, until I introduced her to that. Once I did, she was all over that for several months. And even now, she occasionally asks me to make her do that. She did this past weekend.

_Have you ever had to pretend to be interested in someone in order to fit in?
_
I can't answer this one for her, obviously, but I would assume yes. Haven't we all?

_Have you ever felt “broken” because you don’t experience sexual feelings like those around you?
_
This I can answer, sort of. I don't think she's ever felt 'broken'. She did say that she realized sometime in her late teens that her girlfriends, for example, would constantly talk about how hot this guy was, or how much they wanted to have sex with that guy, or talk about penises - typical teenage girl stuff - and she didn't have those same feelings. She liked boys, dated, had sex, etc. but it was never a physical attraction.

_Have you ever felt that you were straight “by default” or that you were bi or pan because you were equally (dis)interested in all genders?
_
AFAIK, she's never questioned her sexuality. I asked her about this once, and she said no, she's always liked men.


So all in all, yes, she's a little bit different. But I don't attribute that to asexuality (or autism!). I do think most people's sexuality is formed by their upbringing, their surroundings, their parents and siblings, their education (or lack of it), their self-esteem, etc etc etc. All kinds of external sources.

I've always suspected that she has a love/hate relationship with sex. I can see, occasionally, that it's something she does actually like. I can also see that there's some negativity around it, in general. She's very much the personality type to shun things once they turn negative. You now how if you get sick from a certain type of food once in your life, and that food will forever be associated with being sick? She's totally like that.

There's no CSA or sexual assault in her past (that she's told me about), so that's not it. She did have an accidental pregnancy while in her early 20's, and the "father" ran off, but it all turned out okay. She has been cheated on before, by the first guy she lived with, and she clearly had future plans with him, so that was traumatic I imagine. The last guy she was in an LTR with before me essentially called her a *****, and constantly accused her of cheating on him, so that can't have helped.

Even seemingly innocuous things like having two older brothers probably didn't help. They would be out with girls all the time, but then turn around and threaten any boy (including me, back in the day, lol!) if I touched their sister. Her oldest brother threatened to kill me if I got his sister pregnant back then.

So I believe that there's an element of negativity towards sex for her, despite it being something she really does like. I can see that she likes it and enjoys it. But there's never not been a negative aspect to it, I don't think.

So it makes a lot of sense that she balances it, schedules it, and otherwise keeps it out of her mind in the way that she does, and leaves it for when she's comfortable, and at a minimum.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

As I have read through this thread, and I think to an extent this is what @alexm has alluded to, it seems like when there is an "issue" everyone tries to label it, which almost comes across as if there is something wrong with the person. Is she autistic, is she asexual, etc... I get that it is easier to be able to label because then you can figure out how to "treat". *Maybe the answer is just as simple as sex is not that big a priority to her.* At the start, it could be easier to overcome this because of the relationship being new, less distractions, etc... Over time the "newness" wears off, more stresses (family, work, finances) and something like sex just takes on much less importance. Not saying that is should be an excuse to not make an effort in a LTR, but sometimes it really is that simple.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> I agree with this, and also with what @anonmd said - to a point.
> 
> What's going on with my marriage isn't all that uncommon. My over-analyzation of it, is :grin2:
> 
> ...


alexm, yes, I can drop the topic, but please indulge me for one last post.

I don't think this is a catch-all diagnosis at all, nor do I think it applies to most marriages. The only reason I brought it up is because, according to you, your wife actually identifies with this mindset. Dismissing that out of hand, and then deciding that instead your wife doesn't prioritize you may be doing both her and your marriage a real disservice.

Could it not be that she prioritizes you so much that she goes out of her way to make you as happy as she possibly can despite her own limits?

You said yourself in a later post that your wife does feel she is different from others in the sexual sphere, and has actually felt like an outsider in many respects. Whether or not you use the label isn't what is important here. 

What's important, to my mind at any rate, is that you are not assuming the worst of her (selfish, doesn't care about you, just like all the typical selfish nasty terrible wives that TAM loves to hate on) instead of understanding that she may really be coming at this issue from a very different headspace.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> alexm, yes, I can drop the topic, but please indulge me for one last post.
> 
> I don't think this is a catch-all diagnosis at all, nor do I think it applies to most marriages. The only reason I brought it up is because, according to you, your wife actually identifies with this mindset. Dismissing that out of hand, and then deciding that instead your wife doesn't prioritize you may be doing both her and your marriage a real disservice.
> 
> ...


I generally agree, except for the asexual part. The only reason I am hesitant to go down the asexual road here is because it is as clear as mud and very subjective what an asexual is supposed to be, what the prospects are, how it changes and so on. If she was a homosexual for example, it would be pretty clear that any of Alexm's efforts should be dropped and basically the correct advice would probably be to separate (unless they want to live like friends together forever after). It's not clear what asexuality will bring to the table here in terms of helping him resolve the topic. If you mean to just basically 'let her be': then yes. If it means: 'let her be, there is no hope'. Then i don't agree. It might make things more confusing because asexuality encompasses anyone who *wants *to be an asexual as well as those *who can't help it* but be an asexual.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

It's just a starting point, not an end point. A possible avenue for greater understanding and appreciation.

Personally, I want to be appreciated for who I am, and not have the person I love most constantly assuming my motives are nefarious. 

And personally, I want to understand my spouse as best I can, without assuming that he just doesn't care enough about me to behave how I want him too. 
@alexm is clearly uncomfortable with this line of thinking which might explain why he's had no further conversations with his wife about this, or attempted to dig a little deeper into her experiences. And I get why, I think. 

But -- again personally -- I would rather tackle something that makes me uncomfortable head on than to spend the next 10 years wondering why my spouse isn't responding the way they "should". 

And again, it's just a place to start, without any foregone conclusions. She clearly loves him, and clearly enjoys having sex with him. So, there's actually quite a bit to work with ....


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

For those saying to just take these LD's at face value and believe what they say - let me tell you my experience.

When hubby and I bought our house, we chose one with a big yard and a big veggie garden and lots of outside room because that's what we had discussed and that's what we both wanted. 5 years later, we'd done a lot of work on it and were enjoying it together. We'd grown apart though, and our marriage wasn't that great. Turned out, he felt underappreciated and resentful toward me because *I* was the one who wanted the big yard and the garden and everything, not him. We'd had numerous discussions about it - you don't buy a house without doing that!! - and NEVER ONCE had he indicated any trepidation. So I went into it thinking we were doing something for US, whereas he was actually doing it FOR ME. Unbeknownst to me. He actually decided, in his own mind of course, that I was taking advantage of him here. So what did he do? Cheated. Instead of trying to talk to me about any of it, instead of telling me how he truly felt, instead of letting me KNOW what was going on is his head, he decided what *I* was thinking (which was completely out to lunch) and acted on it, and almost ruined our marriage. So by taking him at face value, I often do not get anywhere near the real picture - I still to this day have to dig things out of him. He did learn his lesson - he is WAY better at opening up to me now - but saying you should just take your LD spouse at face value ignores the sad fact that many people, whether on purpose or not, completely mask their true feelings and thoughts from their spouse.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@Hope1964 Yes, it is totally true...we can't get anywhere with someone who is not self aware enough to be honest, or with someone who has honesty issues in general. People like this will be impossible to "figure out", they typically don't even have themselves figured out.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> S'okay
> 
> I would probably fit into the autism spectrum, myself, but I really don't feel I am. No more than anybody else, anyway.
> 
> ...


I was actually more interested in YOUR answers, since you said several of them applied to you....which didn't make sense to me based on all of your posts here over the years which clearly paint you as a sexual person.

I think if someone can answer "yes" to some of the items on this list but only for a short period of time or only with one partner or whatever, that's not really what the list is getting at. It is saying that a pervasive pattern of "yeses" on the list could point to asexuality.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I was actually more interested in YOUR answers, since you said several of them applied to you....which didn't make sense to me based on all of your posts here over the years which clearly paint you as a sexual person.
> 
> I think if someone can answer "yes" to some of the items on this list but only for a short period of time or only with one partner or whatever, that's not really what the list is getting at. It is saying that a pervasive pattern of "yeses" on the list could point to asexuality.


I am not sure he meant it seriously...Nor did I, particularly. The point was more that these questionnaires are fun to do etc but I am not sure they can be regarded as particularly reliable. I am pretty sure to determine whether one is ****/hetero-sexual on the other hand, one question would suffice :wink2:


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Both have to be in a somewhat uncomfortable position.


As long as it's not on a Saturday :wink2:



TheTruthHurts said:


> I did - and my relationship was kind of perfect otherwise - but there was no possibility for change otherwise


And what happened? I am curious.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> No I'm with @alexm here. That's my w too. Only at night in bed etc. No sexuality otherwise. Sleep over everything else.
> 
> The thing is... I reached a stopping point with a medical condition and decided if mullet-head trailer park morons could have unbridled sex, why the hell didn't I deserve it too (ok but I prefer to limit it to human females). And after picking up His Needs Her Needs I realized my Needs actually were valid and frankly common. That's a big part of it. I also realized from TAM that female sexuality is more complex (ha ha poke) - but seriously - it isn't always driven by desire. So I adjusted my thinking and I also reasserted myself and provided HNHN to facilitate dialog. Of course, my W would never read that or do the work by she was interested in understanding
> 
> ...


Well done. The trick was to find an effective and honest way to communicate in combination with her willingness and compassion towards you.


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