# When did men stop being men???



## R.J.

Come on guys. What's going on with you? At first I thought it was just my situation but the more threads I read on TAM, the more I'm realizing that there are so many men whom are comfortable allowing their wives to take care of the household while they do the bear minimum to make the marriage work. There are so many men who don't work at all or are working but hardly contributing financially (and in most cases by choice). Also, I've encountered many situations where not only doesn't the husband hardly pay any bills, but he also doesn't lift a finger around the house to make up for his lack in financial support. 

What is becoming of our men today? Why are more and more men accepting their wives to be breadwinner and home maker while they sit and reap the benefits? Why does it seem as if many men no longer have pride or back bone? I remember when a man refused to accept money from his wife because he was short. He would work 2 jobs before he had his wife taking over his role in the household. Nowadays, it seems as if more men are content with being "slave masters." They sit on their tails and give out orders while their wives does it all. AND to top it off, have an audacity to complain about his "lacking" sex life when she's too resentful and or tired to give out.

And this gets me too. I hear so many of you claiming that your wives won't allow you to be a "man." First of all, no one can allow you to be a man (let's just get that straight). Does she block your manhood by removing your scr0t0ms and play baseball with them using your peni$ as a bat??? Just asking…Lol.

Why has your decision making capability manifested insecurities in your wives? I'm sick of guys thinking that they deserve a promotion just for the sake of being a man. NOOOO. It doesn't work that way. Husband or not, you must earn your position (PERIOD). You have to show that you will make great choices for the greater good of the family and lead the pack successfully before you get to stamp everything in ink. You must confirm that when the going gets tough, you get tougher and will successfully guide the family through the toughtest of storms. You don't just get to make all the final decisions just because you’re the husband.

I hear the same thing from my husband. He claims I don't "allow" him to be a man. I make all of the money, he hasn't done absolutely anything to try to bring in more income on his behalf to support the family, every final decision he makes seems to only benefit him, yet I'm suppose to sit there and knowingly get burned by allowing him to make a decision that I won't benefit from at all just because he's my husband. Ok, believe that if you want to.

Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


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## nice777guy

R.J. said:


> Does she block your manhood by removing your scr0t0ms and play baseball with them using your peni$ as a bat??? Just asking…Lol.


Sounds kinda kinky...



> I hear the same thing from my husband. He claims I don't "allow" him to be a man.


That sounds like an excuse - plain and simple.

I've always made a firm distinction in my own life between "excuses" and "reasons."

As he's using YOU as an excuse, he likely won't "Man-up" unless he wants to.

Its truly not all of us. I had my own issues - but never once blamed my wife for who I was or who I am.


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## Amplexor

I'm sorry the situation with your husband has tainted your opinion of the rest us.


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## uphillbattle

Where the **** do I sign up for this life? I work 12 hours a day, come home make dinner atleast half the time, help around the house, help the kids with homework and would give my right arm to make sure the family has what it needs. Hell, wouldn't miss the already non existant sex life. I will gladly take your husband's place, hell I may even do the dishes every once in a while.

Seriously though. If your hubby is that lazy and worthless, toss his ass out. You don't get married to have an extra kid to raise.

If you wish to use the logic that your hubby and some of what you see on here are an accurate depicition of the entire male species. I could using the same logic say what is wrong with women, they are loveless lazy asses that sould come with an instruction manual and a box of eggshells that you can practice walking on in preperation for your life of misery. But I guess I can see past the end of my nose enough to know that would be wrong.


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## nice777guy

uphillbattle said:


> Where the **** do I sign up for this life? I work 12 hours a day, come home make dinner atleast half the time, help around the house, help the kids with homework and would give my right arm to make sure the family has what it needs. Hell, wouldn't miss the already non existant sex life. I will gladly take your husband's place, hell I may even do the dishes every once in a while.
> Seriously though. If your hubby is that lazy and worthless, toss his ass out. You don't get married to have an extra kid to raise.


:iagree:

The real question really isn't when did men stop being men, but why do you tolerate this in your marriage?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

My husband has certainly stepped up to the plate and has put more then his fair share of effort into our marriage right from the start. I more then appreciate everything he does for me. Now that I'm disabled after my spine injury, he has picked up my slack on my bad days where I can not get out of bed. Even before my injury, he's worked 2 part time jobs along with his full time job. One of his part time jobs is teaching online college course, the other is a small business of ours. When he asked me to quit my job to stay home with the kids, we discussed that I may never return to work. Now I really can't return to work and never will be able to bring money into our household. I'm a very lucky woman to have him as my husband. Everything about him is wonderful. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie

feminism, you asked for it


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## mr.miketastic

R.J. said:


> Come on guys. What's going on with you? At first I thought it was just my situation but the more threads I read on TAM, the more I'm realizing that there are so many men whom are comfortable allowing their wives to take care of the household while they do the bear minimum to make the marriage work. There are so many men who don't work at all or are working but hardly contributing financially (and in most cases by choice). Also, I've encountered many situations where not only doesn't the husband hardly pay any bills, but he also doesn't lift a finger around the house to make up for his lack in financial support.
> 
> What is becoming of our men today? Why are more and more men accepting their wives to be breadwinner and home maker while they sit and reap the benefits? Why does it seem as if many men no longer have pride or back bone? I remember when a man refused to accept money from his wife because he was short. He would work 2 jobs before he had his wife taking over his role in the household. Nowadays, it seems as if more men are content with being "slave masters." They sit on their tails and give out orders while their wives does it all. AND to top it off, have an audacity to complain about his "lacking" sex life when she's too resentful and or tired to give out.
> 
> And this gets me too. I hear so many of you claiming that your wives won't allow you to be a "man." First of all, no one can allow you to be a man (let's just get that straight). Does she block your manhood by removing your scr0t0ms and play baseball with them using your peni$ as a bat??? Just asking…Lol.
> 
> Why has your decision making capability manifested insecurities in your wives? I'm sick of guys thinking that they deserve a promotion just for the sake of being a man. NOOOO. It doesn't work that way. Husband or not, you must earn your position (PERIOD). You have to show that you will make great choices for the greater good of the family and lead the pack successfully before you get to stamp everything in ink. You must confirm that when the going gets tough, you get tougher and will successfully guide the family through the toughtest of storms. You don't just get to make all the final decisions just because you’re the husband.
> 
> I hear the same thing from my husband. He claims I don't "allow" him to be a man. I make all of the money, he hasn't done absolutely anything to try to bring in more income on his behalf to support the family, every final decision he makes seems to only benefit him, yet I'm suppose to sit there and knowingly get burned by allowing him to make a decision that I won't benefit from at all just because he's my husband. Ok, believe that if you want to.
> 
> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


Eleanor Roosevelt said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" Same applies for being a man. Be one even if it pisses someone off. Be one, even if you know you will not be appreciated for it. Be one even if you are not loved for it. Just be one.


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## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> feminism, you asked for it


Blame shifting at its finest.


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## This is me

R.J. said:


> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


I read an article that kind of makes sense and also explains more cancers.

The pill is designed so the estrogen does not disolve in the water of the body, so it stays in the system for the month. It then gets urinated into the water system and remains and recycles back into our water system.

Men and women are getting more and more estrogen as the generations pass. 

Blame the pill.


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## nice777guy

This is me said:


> I read an article that kind of makes sense and also explains more cancers.
> 
> The pill is designed so the estrogen does not disolve in the water of the body, so it stays in the system for the month. It then gets urinated into the water system and remains and recycles back into our water system.
> 
> Men and women are getting more and more estrogen as the generations pass.
> 
> Blame the pill.


What was the old Alan Alda book many years ago - Real Men Eat Quiche? Was around the start of the whole "enlightened men who cry" movement.

Wonder how often Alan was getting laid...


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

There are some really good men out there. My brother is pretty comparable to my husband, he too, is very nice to his wife. I know a few others as well, but my first husband was horrid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CWM0842

There are plenty of men that are still men. Your husband just isn't one of them. In your case his lack of a job sounds like the problem. It's hard to feel like a man without a job. And while your attitude that he needs to get off his ass is right in a lot of ways, if he really has been trying to find a way to provide more financially then beating him down isn't going to help him act like a man. The economy sucks and you can't necessarily make more money just by "trying harder." If he really is just lazy, don't assume all men are.


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## ocotillo

Men and women can be absolutely horrible judges of each other's character. So very sorry for you.

There are plenty of men out there who have spent the last two months protecting excess income with Section 179 deductions, tax deferred contributions, etc.


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## anotherguy

Amplexor said:


> I'm sorry the situation with your husband has tainted your opinion of the rest us.


I have to say - that is a perfect rebuttal to a long list of blanket assertions that do not apply to almost every married guy I know.

funny.


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## okeydokie

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Blame shifting at its finest.


we should have risen up and squashed it when we had the chance


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## LovesHerMan

Why are you saying that all men are like your husband? Would you accept negative general statements about all women?

What have you done to discuss these issues with him? What boundaries have you set about what you will accept in your marriage? Generalized complaints will never get you a loving, supportive relationship.


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## EleGirl

R.J. said:


> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


Not all men are like your husband and mine. I know some who work hard and support their family… even when their wives work they are full partners in the marriage financially and other wise. 

But I have been reading a lot of posts here about guys who do not do much to bring in an income or to help around the house… and on top of that they are basically **** heads to their wives.

Your husband sounds a lot like my husband. 

When I married my husband in 2000 he had a 6 figure job. He traveled a lot. He and his two children moved in. While employed the only thing he did was work. He did not help with the house or even with his own children. 

During our entire marriage I have worked full time.. often long hours, raised his two children and my son with little to no help from my husband; taken care of the house; cooked; taken care of our bills, taxes, and all legal issues.

Then he was laid off from his job in 2002 in a global layoff … the company was having financial problem because of 9/11. Since then he’s worked a few short contracts all in all equaling maybe 12 months of work. That’s it.

He has spent most of his time all these years sitting at his computer all day and all night playing computer games. 

He also feeds/waters the dogs and lets them in/out during the day. He cleans up the back yard of dog poop about once a month.

He chose to end our sex life about 4 years ago. Says that he has ED but refuses to see a doctor about it. I really do not think he’s ED. It’s an excuse.

He has written a few novels. He is an increasable writer. He will not even try to get his books published. 

He is a web developer with very excellent skills that he has kept up. I have invested a lot of money and time into getting a web development business going with him. But he cannot finish a project. I’ve had to give deposits back to customers because he will not finish the work. So having his own business it out of the question as well.

Up until recently he has refused to lift a finger around the house, with the kids, with handling bills, etc. 

About 4 months ago I took him to a psychiatrist and we had a discussion. Told him that I was tired of it all, that I think he is a cruel person for treating me this way. That either he is mentally ill or just mean and is taking advantage of me. And either he works with the pshyciatrist to get is ass in gear or he can move out. . 

Well not he cooks dinner about 4 nights a week and keeps the kitchen sort-a clean. Let’s dishes pile up but . 

During the entire time of our marriage in 2000 i have worked full time - often working very long hours, raising his two children and my son, doing all the house work, paying all the bills, etc. . 

It's only been in the last two months that he's started to do anything around the house. Now he is cooking dinner about half the time. And he washes the dishes most days and sort of keeps the kitchen clean. That is about the extent of his updated effort around the house. . 

I’m so fed up with this.


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## EleGirl

lovesherman said:


> Why are you saying that all men are like your husband? Would you accept negative general statements about all women?
> 
> What have you done to discuss these issues with him? What boundaries have you set about what you will accept in your marriage? Generalized complaints will never get you a loving, supportive relationship.



She is NOT saying that all men are like her huband. She is saying that she is reading about a fair number of men who are like this.


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## EleGirl

okeydokie said:


> feminism, you asked for it


Oh so it's feminism that is causing her husband to mistreat her? Really?


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## EleGirl

This is me said:


> I read an article that kind of makes sense and also explains more cancers.
> 
> The pill is designed so the estrogen does not disolve in the water of the body, so it stays in the system for the month. It then gets urinated into the water system and remains and recycles back into our water system.
> 
> Men and women are getting more and more estrogen as the generations pass.
> 
> Blame the pill.


Um estrogen does not make a person lazy. It does not make a person a leech.


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## R.J.

Loveherman, let's get it straight. I never said that all men were like my husband. I was very specific not to suggest that ALL men are any way. Additionally, if you read through my entire thread you would've realized that I based my opinion not only on what I go through with my husband, but also due to the threads I've consistently read.

And since you're obviously the guru of loving, supportive relationships then why are you on TAM? You should be able to talk to your husband and not a bunch of strangers on a website.

So slow down.


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## Enginerd

While I think you're projecting your issues with your husband on all of us men I do think there's some truth to what you're saying. Have you seen Adam's Corolla's book "In Fifty Years We'll All Be Chicks". The pendulum has swun too far after the women rights movement and now as women are becoming dominant in the work place men are having a hard time figuring out where they belong. I also think our politically correct letigious society has made it practically illegal to be a real man in corporate America. You can't even look at a women without getting into trouble these days. There is also way too much entitlement in our society and everyone thinks they deserve stuff instead of having to earn it. Our government has perpetuated much of this by reinforcing the Political Correctness in the courts and the schools are basically teaching us to be sheep. American men have been taught it's not acceptable to overtly display manly traits and they that they should be ashamed to be a heterosexual man in the first place. These messages are usually subtle but they are always there in the media. Yes, some men's behahvior can be brutal and offensive, but I think we've thrown the baby out with the bath water. My generation has been taught to be sensitive to everyone's needs and that competition was unfair. Now, everyone has to win a trophy regardless of how well you perform and there are no consequences for losing. It doesn't create men with character. Honestly I think its very ironic that you see alot of women complain about there being no real men around these days.:scratchhead:


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## ocotillo

EleGirl said:


> She is NOT saying that all men are like her huband. She is saying that she is reading about a fair number of men who are like this.


A number of her statements in the second person were unconditionally inclusive. Perhaps it was unintentional.


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## R.J.

EleGirl it must be REALLY tough for you to marry a man with a 6 figure paying position and then he ends up with nothing. My situation was similar. He wasn't making nearly 6 figures, but he was making a decent salary which could've supported his children and I. However, he ended up losing that job and we've been paying for it ever since.

He works and the job pays him ok. He does give some money, but it's not enough to even discuss it. He has become completely content with me doing it all and I don't understand it. The most ironic thing is that when we were first dating, he told me that his son's mother was a total leech. She'd watch him work so hard and wouldn't do anything to make things easier for them. She didn't cook or clean and she ran their bills through the roof. Now that I'm making the money, he's doing the EXACT same thing to me. You'd think that he'd recall how he felt when he was in my shoes, but I suppose not.

I'm gonna repeat this once again for every one else. I'M NOT SAYING THAT ALL MEN ARE WORTHLESS!!! I'm saying that based on my situation and MANY of the threads that I've encountered on TAM it seems as if many men aren't stepping up to the plate in their marriage. They're content with watching their wives do it all, even if she's struggling to do it. 

For the women out there who have great husbands whom contribute in every way in the marriage, kudos to you and realize how blessed you are because TRUST AND BELIEVE things CAN be different.


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## chillymorn

:iagree:


Enginerd said:


> While I think you're projecting your issues with your husband on all of us men I do think there's some truth to what you're saying. Have you seen Adam's Corolla's book "In Fifty Years We'll All Be Chicks". The pendulum has swun too far after the women rights movement and now as women are becoming dominant in the work place men are having a hard time figuring out where they belong. I also think our politically correct letigious society has made it practically illegal to be a real man in corporate America. You can't even look at a women without getting into trouble these days. There is also way too much entitlement in our society and everyone thinks they deserve stuff instead of having to earn it. Our government has perpetuated much of this by reinforcing the Political Correctness in the courts and the schools are basically teaching us to be sheep. American men have been taught it's not acceptable to overtly display manly traits and they that they should be ashamed to be a heterosexual man in the first place. These messages are usually subtle but they are always there in the media. Yes, some men's behahvior can be brutal and offensive, but I think we've thrown the baby out with the bath water. My generation has been taught to be sensitive to everyone's needs and that competition was unfair. Now, everyone has to win a trophy regardless of how well you perform and there are no consequences for losing. It doesn't create men with character. Honestly I think its very ironic that you see alot of women complain about there being no real men around these days.:scratchhead:


:iagree:


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## Mistys dad

Try stepping back and being a "man" for a day.

Men are portrayed as idiots, buffoons, incompetent, stupid cattle on Television. Try watching King of Queens or a similar show. Television commercials project men as little more than animals that need a woman to guide them.

Channels like Disney and others portray fathers as a useless appendage around the house. Children are taught that they are smarter than the adults in their lives and the "man" in the house isn't a figure of respect, rather a butt of the jokes.

"Successful" men are the sensitive, in touch with their feminine side weaklings. We are told that what we want is inappropriate and sexist. We are told that to be a good man, you must completely subjugate yourself to the whims of the women in your life. You can't dress yourself without a woman or a gay person.

Masculinity is portrayed as a weakness. A basic inability to control your sexual nature. Sex is chore to the woman, who uses it to control the mindless ape in her marriage.

Men are taught from an early age that among their numbers is a very high percentage of predators. Rapists, child molesters, wife beaters. It is because "men" in general are barely able to control their primate urges. remember that Super bowl Sunday was supposed to be the day that more women were raped and beaten than any other day?

If we complain about it, anger is the response. We need to "suck it up", "Man it up", or just "deal with it"

If we work long hours to support, we are neglecting the family.

If we spend time with the family, we could be out being more successful.

If we want sex, we are Neanderthals, if not, we are unloving.

If we hang with the guys and have a few beers, we are insensitive. If we stay at home and pay full attention to our (wives) we are spineless wimps.

Remember, a woman needs a man, like a fish needs a bicycle.


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## EleGirl

Mistys dad said:


> Try stepping back and being a "man" for a day..


Oh my.. and woman are protrayed so well.. you know they are brain dead gold diggers. They are bimbos. Oh and don't forget.. blonds are just dumb bimbos... What's dumber than a bimbo? A blond... shall I go on? Men do not have a minopoly on being badly represented in movies, TV and other media. We are not talking about stupid stereo types here.

Are you saying that all that you listed is an excuse for men like my husband who refuse to earn a living, who refuse to help around the house and who play computer games all day? Oh, poor guy I guess I should not complain.. is this what you are suggesting?

Haven't you notices here on these forums a lot of women with husbands who are not contributing financially and in other ways to the household? Their wives are here, a good number of them.

The OP brought up a very valid issue... perhaps discussing the issue instead of being defensive would actually help the OP and people like me who are struggling with this problem.



Mistys dad said:


> Remember, a woman needs a man, like a fish needs a bicycle.


Oh... get real. :lol:


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## EleGirl

R.J. said:


> EleGirl it must be REALLY tough for you to marry a man with a 6 figure paying position and then he ends up with nothing.


I has been tough, we planned our financial life with both of us working. Then this happened. We decided to keep our house because the kids were in high school and surely he would start job hunting or make a business work.. surely. Then after the kids graduated from high school I decided to sell the house.. and the market crashed. We had to walk away from the house. I could not keep up with the payment… after years of trying to do it all financially myself. I’m pissed about that.


R.J. said:


> The most ironic thing is that when we were first dating, he told me that his son's mother was a total leech. She'd watch him work so hard and wouldn't do anything to make things easier for them. She didn't cook or clean and she ran their bills through the roof. Now that I'm making the money, he's doing the EXACT same thing to me. You'd think that he'd recall how he felt when he was in my shoes, but I suppose not.


Same with my husband. Sounds about like the same thing with his ex- a SAHM who he supported.


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## R.J.

Mistys dad said:


> Try stepping back and being a "man" for a day.
> 
> Masculinity is portrayed as a weakness. A basic inability to control your sexual nature. Sex is chore to the woman, who uses it to control the mindless ape in her marriage.
> I believe that sex can become a chore to a woman when there's more resentment in her being than love for her husband. Sex is more than a chore for me because my husband has completely abandoned my needs as a woman and its hard for me to want to express the lack of love that I have for him in a sexual way.
> 
> If we complain about it, anger is the response. We need to "suck it up", "Man it up", or just "deal with it"
> I don't believe this at all. There's always a healthy and constructive way for anyone to express their emotions (complaints/concerns). However, if a man's way of expressing himself is getting into a woman's face and yelling to the top of his lungs, using this as a method to intimidate his woman into understanding his perspective then, I agree that he should simply suck it up until he finds a more constructive way of handling his issues.
> 
> If we work long hours to support, we are neglecting the family. If you're suppose to be working long hours, but really you're out chasing every skirt that moves, then that's one thing. However, if a man is truly working hard and doing his best to spend time with his family, then he can't be held at fault for his lack of time. He's doing the best that he can. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that on every day off he should go hang out with the boys instead of spending that time with his family.
> 
> If we spend time with the family, we could be out being more successful.
> This isn't true either. If you're not working at all, but you're spending most of your time with the kids playing video games, then c'mon. You're not being productive for yourself or the children. However, if you work hard and still find time to spend with the family then I think you're very successful already.
> 
> If we want sex, we are Neanderthals, if not, we are unloving.
> Again, this brings me back to my original point. A man who shows his woman unconditional love and support normally has no issues with her wanting to give him unconditional sex. However, if he treats her like she's nonexistent then yes sex is unbearable. On the other hand, if the woman is doing all she can in her marriage (at least to her knowledge) and her husband doesn't want to have sex with her then that too suggests he's unloving.
> 
> If we hang with the guys and have a few beers, we are insensitive. If we stay at home and pay full attention to our (wives) we are spineless wimps.
> C'mon. Who has ever said that a man whom pays full attention to their wife is a spineless wimp? That person is clueless and ridiculous for suggesting anything of the sort. I'd love for my husband to pay any attention to me. I don't need his full attention, but if I had it that would be even better and if anyone attempts to call him a spineless wimp for doing just that I'd stand tall and tell them to take their jealous ass straight to hell!!!
> 
> Remember, a woman needs a man, like a fish needs a bicycle.


We women were created to for the man...to be a partner with the man. God made us for that reason so I guess that means that fish needs a bicycle.


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## Mistys dad

EleGirl said:


> Oh my.. and woman are protrayed so well.. you know they are brain dead gold diggers. They are bimbos. Oh and don't forget.. blonds are just dumb bimbos... What's dumber than a bimbo? A blond... shall I go on? Men do not have a minopoly on being badly represented in movies, TV and other media. We are not talking about stupid stereo types here.
> 
> Are you saying that all that you listed is an excuse for men like my husband who refuse to earn a living, who refuse to help around the house and who play computer games all day? Oh, poor guy I guess I should not complain.. is this what you are suggesting?
> 
> Haven't you notices here on these forums a lot of women with husbands who are not contributing financially and in other ways to the household? Their wives are here, a good number of them.
> 
> The OP brought up a very valid issue... perhaps discussing the issue instead of being defensive would actually help the OP and people like me who are struggling with this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... get real. :lol:


Well there is the anger I spoke of.

The OP was talking about men, not women. I answered in that aspect. In fact, the post is titled "When did men stop being men?" 

I do not know you, or your husband. I can't speak for your issues. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain, in fact I didn't mention you or your husband at all. So I also didn't offer any excuse for his, or your, situation. 

It's funny that you read defensiveness in my post. I don't care to defend anyone's actions. I simply asked the OP to step back and observe. Try some understanding of the "other side". Maybe get some insight about why "men stopped being men"


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## R.J.

EleGirl said:


> Oh my.. and woman are protrayed so well.. you know they are brain dead gold diggers. They are bimbos. Oh and don't forget.. blonds are just dumb bimbos... What's dumber than a bimbo? A blond... shall I go on? Men do not have a minopoly on being badly represented in movies, TV and other media. We are not talking about stupid stereo types here.
> 
> Are you saying that all that you listed is an excuse for men like my husband who refuse to earn a living, who refuse to help around the house and who play computer games all day? Oh, poor guy I guess I should not complain.. is this what you are suggesting?
> 
> Haven't you notices here on these forums a lot of women with husbands who are not contributing financially and in other ways to the household? Their wives are here, a good number of them.
> 
> The OP brought up a very valid issue... perhaps discussing the issue instead of being defensive would actually help the OP and people like me who are struggling with this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... get real. :lol:


:iagree::lol: Don't forget that all women are supposed to be super slim in the waist, maintain a professional career, perfect home makers, sex rockets, allow their husbands to do whatever he wants (otherwise we're nagging and not allowing him to be a man), and etc.. The way that society has portrayed the perfect woman/wife is impossible. Imagine the pressure and stress that we go through just trying to live up to a fraction of that portrayal, and in most of our cases the husband just sits there and watches us struggle. Damn, please throw me a rope so that I won't drown already!!!


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## Mistys dad

R.J. said:


> :iagree::lol: Don't forget that all women are supposed to be super slim in the waist, maintain a professional career, perfect home makers, sex rockets, allow their husbands to do whatever he wants (otherwise we're nagging and not allowing him to be a man), and etc.. The way that society has portrayed the perfect woman/wife is impossible. Imagine the pressure and stress that we go through just trying to live up to a fraction of that portrayal, and in most of our cases the husband just sits there and watches us struggle. Damn, please throw me a rope so that I won't drown already!!!


Again, your post asked a question about men. 

I simply tried to add some "male" perspective to your question.

If you choose to take that as some kind of attack, I can't help that. You can bullet point everything I said and twist it to be about how all men are bad. Reread your own response. 

Skirt chasing, video game playing, getting into her face and yelling? I didn't see those questions in your post.


----------



## EleGirl

Mistys dad said:


> Well there is the anger I spoke of.
> 
> The OP was talking about men, not women. I answered in that aspect. In fact, the post is titled "When did men stop being men?"
> 
> I do not know you, or your husband. I can't speak for your issues. I'm not saying you shouldn't complain, in fact I didn't mention you or your husband at all. So I also didn't offer any excuse for his, or your, situation.
> 
> It's funny that you read defensiveness in my post. I don't care to defend anyone's actions. I simply asked the OP to step back and observe. Try some understanding of the "other side". Maybe get some insight about why "men stopped being men"


There's no anger in my post to you. A good part of it was have a bit of fun with your post... like one at the end "get real" with the LOL icon next to it.

I read your post as a reply to the OP. I do believe it is reasonable when a person replies to a thread that they are replying to the OP. Hence I read your post as a reply to why some men are like her husband. If you read this thread I posted a rather long post about my situation. Much like the OP’s. So I assume that if you are saying that the bad press men sometimes get these days is a good reason for some men to be like her husband, then surely it would be a good excuse for a man to be like my husband.

If your post had nothing to do with the OP than what was your purpose for posting it?


----------



## EleGirl

R.J. said:


> :iagree::lol: Don't forget that all women are supposed to be super slim in the waist, maintain a professional career, perfect home makers, sex rockets, allow their husbands to do whatever he wants (otherwise we're nagging and not allowing him to be a man), and etc.. The way that society has portrayed the perfect woman/wife is impossible. Imagine the pressure and stress that we go through just trying to live up to a fraction of that portrayal, and in most of our cases the husband just sits there and watches us struggle. Damn, please throw me a rope so that I won't drown already!!!


You are right about that image… 

I'm really kind of surprised at how so many men are upset about your OP in which you are clearly talking about a certain subset of men who are clearly not pulling their weight in the marriage.


----------



## EleGirl

Trenton said:


> The reality is neither man nor woman has it easy by default but our attitude about things absolutely changes how easy or hard things are. I'm trying to change mine because we only get this one life and it is really pretty freaking fabulous being alive and having so many opportunities simply by being born.
> 
> I do think men and women want one another. I don't think they need one another. I also don't think it's easy for them to understand one another.
> 
> It's in our best interest to work together to gain a better understanding rather than playing sex wars all the time. That gets no one anywhere, ever.
> 
> *Let it go, work on yourself and please don't think all men are a certain way just because a man you know is or most men you know are. The same goes for women. We're all capable of great understanding and great strides.*
> Isn't it possible that we see the same scenarios as our own often because we're looking for them? Haven't you ever purchased a certain car and then seen that car a lot more often after you purchased it? In other words, it's what we're paying attention to that we'll see.


You are right that it's best to not paint with too wide a brush stroke.

However, I do not read the OP as making a statement about all men. Her post is about her noticing all those relationships being posted here that have a common thread to hers. She is seeking insight and help. And she's really not getting any.


----------



## leroycat

This doesn't sound like my man.


----------



## Mistys dad

EleGirl said:


> There's no anger in my post to you. A good part of it was have a bit of fun with your post... like one at the end "get real" with the LOL icon next to it.
> 
> I read your post as a reply to the OP. I do believe it is reasonable when a person replies to a thread that they are replying to the OP. Hence I read your post as a reply to why some men are like her husband. If you read this thread I posted a rather long post about my situation. Much like the OP’s. So I assume that if you are saying that the bad press men sometimes get these days is a good reason for some men to be like her husband, then surely it would be a good excuse for a man to be like my husband.
> 
> If your post had nothing to do with the OP than what was your purpose for posting it?


The original post in this thread was more of a blanket statement about and question to all men. It was a "men are doing/not doing this, my SO is also". 

To be clear, I give no excuse to men who are poor husbands, partners or friends. None. In fact, most men I know are far more critical of our ranks than the women I know. My point in posting was to point out that men are dealing with many stereotypes that portray them in a bad light. Do women deal with the same things, absolutely, but that wasn't what the post was about.

I believe that bad sex, bad communication, bad relationships fall squarely on the man's shoulders. In a simple statement, if you can fix it, fix it. If you can't, end it and move on. Or even more simply, lead-follow-or get the hell out of the way. I believe that the self image of men causes more issues than any other factor in a relationship. 

It may not seem like it, but I am in agreement with the post. I wonder what the hell is happening to men, and women, for that matter.

Being that this is the internet, and inflection and emotion are sometimes unclear, I accept that you were having some fun and humor. I also understand this is the ladies lounge.....and I'm out of my element.....:allhail:


----------



## ocotillo

EleGirl said:


> A good part of it was have a bit of fun with your post... like one at the end "get real" with the LOL icon next to it.


You know that was Irina Dunn, right?


----------



## FrankKissel

EleGirl said:


> You are right about that image…
> 
> I'm really kind of surprised at how so many men are upset about your OP in which you are clearly talking about a certain subset of men who are clearly not pulling their weight in the marriage.


Perhaps because she didn't frame her post as concerning a certain subset of men, but rather offered a rambling condemnation of all men.
I'm shocked - shocked! - that it didn't go over well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ouixch

Because we are trying to force men to behave like women. Fight Club was 100% correct, a generation of men raised by women. Coming from being an officer in the Army and working with nothing but men, I now work in a hospital which is 85% women, and it is very difficult for me to function socially. 

An easy example is being direct. Men are typically very direct in communication with one another, but women seem to take this personally. At work I will see a guy asked his professional opinion on something, he'll say "that's a bad idea" for xyz reason and go on about his day. His male peers will say "oh, ok" His female peers will start telling leadership that he is hard to work with and isn't a good fit.


----------



## EleGirl

FrankKissel said:


> Perhaps because she didn't frame her post as concerning a certain subset of men, but rather offered a rambling condemnation of all men.
> I'm shocked - shocked! - that it didn't go over well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To be fair... the OP is a mixed bag.. some time she put it in ways that seemed to include all men. Then in the rest of it she was clear that it was 'some men', 'many men', and other qualifies. In the last paragraphs she was clearly talking about her own husband.

I guess I could clearly see that she was taking about 'some men'. But I can see how the thread title, the opening line and a few other lines in the text could make a person defensive.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> Come on guys. What's going on with you? At first I thought it was just my situation but the more threads I read on TAM, the more I'm realizing that there are so many men whom are comfortable allowing their wives to take care of the household while they do the bear minimum to make the marriage work. There are so many men who don't work at all or are working but hardly contributing financially (and in most cases by choice). Also, I've encountered many situations where not only doesn't the husband hardly pay any bills, but he also doesn't lift a finger around the house to make up for his lack in financial support.
> 
> What is becoming of our men today? Why are more and more men accepting their wives to be breadwinner and home maker while they sit and reap the benefits? Why does it seem as if many men no longer have pride or back bone? I remember when a man refused to accept money from his wife because he was short. He would work 2 jobs before he had his wife taking over his role in the household. Nowadays, it seems as if more men are content with being "slave masters." They sit on their tails and give out orders while their wives does it all. AND to top it off, have an audacity to complain about his "lacking" sex life when she's too resentful and or tired to give out.
> 
> And this gets me too. I hear so many of you claiming that your wives won't allow you to be a "man." First of all, no one can allow you to be a man (let's just get that straight). Does she block your manhood by removing your scr0t0ms and play baseball with them using your peni$ as a bat??? Just asking…Lol.
> 
> Why has your decision making capability manifested insecurities in your wives? I'm sick of guys thinking that they deserve a promotion just for the sake of being a man. NOOOO. It doesn't work that way. Husband or not, you must earn your position (PERIOD). You have to show that you will make great choices for the greater good of the family and lead the pack successfully before you get to stamp everything in ink. You must confirm that when the going gets tough, you get tougher and will successfully guide the family through the toughtest of storms. You don't just get to make all the final decisions just because you’re the husband.
> 
> I hear the same thing from my husband. He claims I don't "allow" him to be a man. I make all of the money, he hasn't done absolutely anything to try to bring in more income on his behalf to support the family, every final decision he makes seems to only benefit him, yet I'm suppose to sit there and knowingly get burned by allowing him to make a decision that I won't benefit from at all just because he's my husband. Ok, believe that if you want to.
> 
> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


Best to look to yourself first, there may be many reasons why you aren’t attractive to “real men”.


----------



## Halien

I'm not the sharpest tack in the drawer, but from the title and general theme, I admit that I avoided this because it sounded like yet another diatribe against my gender. May have some merit, but what good does it do? Not exactly the way to go about seeking input. But to each his own...

In thinking about it, I wonder if there was a definite time period, about the time that mass visual communication became widespread, that fathers became less secure in their own responsibilities for teaching boys what it means to be a man, especially about how we go about communicating that being a man involves knowing what you stand for, and that there is a such thing as right and wrong. Before television and social media, it was just you and your responsibilities to your sons. After, it felt like responsibility was shared, or at least we became more aware that we could be held in low regard if we didn't do it like the Cleaver's. If a kid had a bad father, his world was still small, and he looked to the men around him for learning what it meant to be a man. So men abdicated this responsibility to society, and boys began caring more about what society thought of a man. 

Just my own opinion. 

I spent a whole lot of time teaching my son what it meant to be a man. Taught him the spiritual foundation of both of my own cultural backgrounds. From the native american, he learned that our actions either feed the strong spirit within, or the weak, black spirit. SA and I have shared more about my ancestors beliefs in our spirits, and why we even have a healthy gray wolf featured in many of my son's portraits. But I also taught my son about the historical expectations of an american man, too, based on our local culture, since my parents were of different local cultures. I don't think it even matters what culture we tie our parenting of sons to, but that we, as men, teach them that being a man involves a sense or responsibility to achieve, and protect those we love, balanced with a strong respect for the strengths and intelligence of the women in our lives.


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## AFEH

Real men are still "out there". If a woman’s worthy he’ll find her, they are rather choosy though.


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## Scannerguard

> feminism, you asked for it


There ya go.

No need to answer a simple question with a complex answer. 

That was it.


----------



## Syrum

Feminism in no way had anything to do with men not being real men.
All the real men I have known, had no issue with feminism. 

I believe that men and women are quite lost, and it has nothing to do with women having opportunities, being able to earn money and being paid a fair days pay for a fair days work. What reasonable person wouldn't want those things?

Part of the problem the feminine is not valued, traditional women's roles are not valued. So women and men are only valuing the masculine and it's put men and women in competition with each other. So rather then work together complimenting each other, they are competing, and some men become lazy, and many others give up.

As soon as men value women for what they can bring to the table and value them as equally as they value the masculine, then it will be seen as something to strive for.

Personally I love masculine, take charge, men of their word, won't take crap, caring, loving, hard working men. But being a real man means being fair and balanced. Not taking advantage of and squashing people in a less fortunate position or keeping them down because you afraid of them. Men who don't support women having access to opportunity and equity are afraid and that's not manly or sexy.


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## abandonedcompletely

Syrum said:


> Feminism in no way had anything to do with men not being real men.
> All the real men I have known, had no issue with feminism.
> 
> I believe that men and women are quite lost, and it has nothing to do with women having opportunities, being able to earn money and being paid a fair days pay for a fair days work. What reasonable person wouldn't want those things?
> 
> Part of the problem the feminine is not valued, traditional women's roles are not valued. So women and men are only valuing the masculine and it's put men and women in competition with each other. So rather then work together complimenting each other, they are competing, and some men become lazy, and many others give up.
> 
> As soon as men value women for what they can bring to the table and value them as equally as they value the masculine, then it will be seen as something to strive for.
> 
> Personally I love masculine, take charge, men of their word, won't take crap, caring, loving, hard working men. But being a real man means being fair and balanced. Not taking advantage of and squashing people in a less fortunate position or keeping them down because you afraid of them. Men who don't support women having access to opportunity and equity are afraid and that's not manly or sexy.


Very well said!


----------



## AbsolutelyFree

Well...I am not suggesting that feminism is bad, or that the goal of feminism was to prevent men from being men. But there has to be a reason why this happened, right? Pretty much from the beginning of time up to the 1960s in America, it was a man's world. What event or movement came to prominence over the last 60 years that changed this? How might it have affected social life and family structure?

Hmm.


----------



## R.J.

leroycat said:


> This doesn't sound like my man.


Good for you. You're one of the few.


----------



## abandonedcompletely

AbsolutelyFree said:


> Well...I am not suggesting that feminism is bad, or that the goal of feminism was to prevent men from being men. But there has to be a reason why this happened, right? Pretty much from the beginning of time up to the 1960s in America, it was a man's world. What event or movement happened over the last 60 years that changed this? How might it have affected social life and family structure?
> 
> Hmm.


I believe that women finally got fed up with being taken for granted, being undervalued and treated as unequal in value.

The role women played in life, in the home, for the most part, had been devalued when compared to the man's role. In many ways, it still is today.

When some men exhibit "feminine" traits, they are called weak, yet it is admirable if a woman exhibits traditional "masculine" traits.

I'd like to think of the attributes of both genders as "human" traits. Showing emotion, is a human trait, not a "feminine" trait. Being a "go getter" is also a human trait, not "masculine". That's not to say that genders are the same, but that we all have the ability to just be human, with all the emotions and thoughts that make us human.

That being said, for thousands of years, women, by what society has dictated, has be relegated to the role of the homemaker. And by doing so, it has caused her to be dependent on, first her father, then her husband.

Men, on the other hand, if they didn't want to, they didn't have to consider their wives emotional needs. Why should they? The women really had no choice but to stay in an awful marriage. Women had no choice, due to financial reason, to leave. This treatment towards wives has been passed down through the ages. Now though, times have changed, women will not and do not have to accept being ignored and our needs and roles being downplayed.



I'm not saying all men are like this, I'm just giving my take on why the 60s revolution happened.


----------



## Syrum

AbsolutelyFree said:


> Well...I am not suggesting that feminism is bad, or that the goal of feminism was to prevent men from being men. But there has to be a reason why this happened, right? Pretty much from the beginning of time up to the 1960s in America, it was a man's world. What event or movement came to prominence over the last 60 years that changed this? How might it have affected social life and family structure?
> 
> Hmm.


Just because it was a mans world doesn't mean all the men were good decent and real men.

Social justice in many areas, racism, children's rights, disabilities, mental health etc, have all come very far since the 1960's too. A coincidence? I think not.

Giving people choice and a voice is never a bad thing, except for those that wish to oppress and take advantage.


----------



## R.J.

AFEH said:


> Best to look to yourself first, there may be many reasons why you aren’t attractive to “real men”.


@AFEH. What the he!! are you talking about? I'm not attractive to "real men?" Are you a real man or even a real woman because any real person wouldn't have even made such an immature comment. I'm married to a real man who isn't taking care of real responsibilities. Keep it movin'.


----------



## R.J.

I gave the thread it's title because I intended to capture the attention of all men in order to retrieve feedback on their thoughts regarding the topic. If you read the thread with an open mind and not immediately jump to defense, you would've clearly seen that it's intended to focus on only a subset of men. Of course all men aren't lazy and unwilling to provide for their families. C'mon guys. However, if you read the different threads in other forums, you'd understand why I've come to my conclusion about SOME SOME SOME men. I'm not getting the responses that I was hoping to obtain with the exception of a few. I wanted everyone, both men and women, to provide their opinions about the TOPIC with an open mind. This thread was never intended to offend men or accuse them ALL of not being providers. However, get defensive if you please, but it's still a FACT that there are many men out there who have simply settled and have become completely content with not leading, supporting, or even loving the family as he was intended to do.

I'll say this again, for the women out there whose husbands don't fit into this subset of men, then GREAT for you. Recognize your blessing and start praising your husbands for being such a great provider. Love him unconditionally and show him how much you appreciate him because TRUST AND BELIEVE it can be different.


----------



## Acorn

R.J. said:


> I gave the thread it's title because I intended to capture the attention of all men in order to retrieve feedback on their thoughts regarding the topic. If you read the thread with an open mind and not immediately jump to defense, you would've clearly seen that it's intended to focus on only a subset of men.


Pretty sure the posts about feminism, if read with an open mind and not read defensively, were meant to show that not all feminism was bad... just a subset of it.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> @AFEH. What the he!! are you talking about? I'm not attractive to "real men?" Are you a real man or even a real woman because any real person wouldn't have even made such an immature comment. I'm married to a real man who isn't taking care of real responsibilities. Keep it movin'.


:rofl: I'd run a mile from you. You wouldn't see me for dust lol.


----------



## Syrum

AFEH said:


> :rofl: I'd run a mile from you. You wouldn't see me for dust lol.


:scratchhead: Why? 

I don't know why you are being mean to someone who is obviously having marital difficulties with a man who is not pulling his own weight.


----------



## R.J.

abandonedcompletely said:


> When some men exhibit "feminine" traits, they are called weak, yet it is admirable if a woman exhibits traditional "masculine" traits. I totally agree with this. It's an unfair bias that has been embedded in society.
> 
> I'd like to think of the attributes of both genders as "human" traits. Showing emotion, is a human trait, not a "feminine" trait. Being a "go getter" is also a human trait, not "masculine". That's not to say that genders are the same, but that we all have the ability to just be human, with all the emotions and thoughts that make us human. :iagree::lol:
> 
> Men, on the other hand, if they didn't want to, they didn't have to consider their wives emotional needs. Why should they? The women really had no choice but to stay in an awful marriage. Women had no choice, due to financial reason, to leave. This treatment towards wives has been passed down through the ages. Now though, times have changed, women will not and do not have to accept being ignored and our needs and roles being downplayed.:iagree: Actually never looked at it this way, but it definitely makes sense. That's why back then the husbands would have affairs, be emotionally and mentally unavailable, and so on and the wives would remain in the marriage. It was all due to dependency. The woman had no choice but to accept all the conditions in the marriage because she had no other means to survive otherwise. Also, divorce was looked down upon and a woman could even risk being shunned by family or even friends as a result. Therefore she stayed and accepted being ignored (in some cases) for the sake of survival. However things changed a bit in that women became greater or equal financial contributors in the household. Yet she was still expected (in some cases) to maintain the home as well. Now it seems like time is evolving even further to where SOME men aren't being financial contributors, homemakers, or anything. They're just living with no purpose. They serve absolutely no added value to the family and in many cases become more of a burden than anything else.
> 
> I'm not saying all men are like this, I'm just giving my take on why the 60s revolution happened.


----------



## Star

R.J. said:


> @AFEH. What the he!! are you talking about? I'm not attractive to "real men?" Are you a real man or even a real woman because any real person wouldn't have even made such an immature comment. I'm married to a real man who isn't taking care of real responsibilities. Keep it movin'.


I think you must have touched a nerve, hence the not so nice reply you got.


Btw I think you'll find AFEH is male.......


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## SimplyAmorous

A couple days ago, Me & 2 of my sons sat & watched a movie called "Courageous" (at the $1 Theater)- this was all about being a MAN of integrity, becoming the Best father possible....

.... it was about loss, it was about mistakes, it was about hope, it was about family, and resolution. It was inspirational. My oldest & 2nd son loved this movie, I sat & watched with them as the rest of my family was off watching "Puss & Boots". 

These men were Police Officers, it shows how strong they were -how brutal & dangerous the job is, owning up to their failings as husbands & fathers, and striving to make it right, some of it was very sappy, I even was laughing feeling it was "TOO MUCH" -and that it alot coming from me!

But they all found a new direction in life, they were all tested in something and overcame ... this was made by the creators of "Fireproof" so it was a christian based movie, but none the less. It was very good, the message in how these men took a stand to be better MEN. What a better world it would all be -if such examples were lived. 

It is a courageous message for today. 

Courageous (2011) - Official Trailer [HD] - YouTube


----------



## R.J.

@AFEH, I'm definitely not going to feed into your ridiculousness because clearly you have serious issues outside of possibly being a deadbeat husband. You wouldn't have to run miles from me because if you were in my presence, I probably wouldn't even acknowledge your existence in the first place.

Please don't make anymore posts on this thread. This is a serious topic involving adults. I'd appreciate it if you were to discuss the topic at hand and not attack my character (which you know NOTHING about) or simply go to the men's lounge and try to hook up with some of them. That is if you're man enough to recognize a real man and hope that he won't "…run a mile from you."


----------



## Amplexor

leroycat said:


> This doesn't sound like my man.





R.J. said:


> Good for you. You're one of the few.





R.J. said:


> C'mon guys. However, if you read the different threads in other forums, you'd understand why I've come to my conclusion about SOME SOME SOME men.


Then I would consider these two statements to be contradicting.


----------



## abandonedcompletely

Quote:
*Me*: When some men exhibit "feminine" traits, they are called weak, yet it is admirable if a woman exhibits traditional "masculine" traits. *You:* I totally agree with this. It's an unfair bias that has been embedded in society.

I agree RJ, feminine traits are still used as put downs...

Quote:
*Me:* Men, on the other hand, if they didn't want to, they didn't have to consider their wives emotional needs. Why should they? The women really had no choice but to stay in an awful marriage. Women had no choice, due to financial reason, to leave. This treatment towards wives has been passed down through the ages. Now though, times have changed, women will not and do not have to accept being ignored and our needs and roles being downplayed. 
*You:* Actually never looked at it this way, but it definitely makes sense. That's why back then the husbands would have affairs, be emotionally and mentally unavailable, and so on and the wives would remain in the marriage. It was all due to dependency. The woman had no choice but to accept all the conditions in the marriage because she had no other means to survive otherwise. Also, divorce was looked down upon and a woman could even risk being shunned by family or even friends as a result. Therefore she stayed and accepted being ignored (in some cases) for the sake of survival. However things changed a bit in that women became greater or equal financial contributors in the household. Yet she was still expected (in some cases) to maintain the home as well. Now it seems like time is evolving even further to where SOME men aren't being financial contributors, homemakers, or anything. They're just living with no purpose. They serve absolutely no added value to the family and in many cases become more of a burden than anything else.

Sadly, I think some men, still see the relation aspect, household chores and child care as " woman's work" and her responsibility alone. So even if she is working out side the home, all other responsibilities still fall on her shoulders. I've seen this with many men...sadly


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> @AFEH, I'm definitely not going to feed into your ridiculousness because clearly you have serious issues outside of possibly being a deadbeat husband. You wouldn't have to run miles from me because if you were in my presence, I probably wouldn't even acknowledge your existence in the first place.
> 
> Please don't make anymore posts on this thread. This is a serious topic involving adults. I'd appreciate it if you were to discuss the topic at hand and not attack my character (which you know NOTHING about) or simply go to the men's lounge and try to hook up with some of them. That is if you're man enough to recognize a real man and hope that he won't "…run a mile from you."


By your definition, I’m a “real man”. In that I always ensured that I covered the costs of my myself, wife, children, home, furniture, utilities, cars, holidays etc. etc. My wife was a stay at home mum in the first 10 years of a 42 year relationship and worked from then on. Whatever she earned she spent as she wished. Money for the family was my responsibility because that’s the way I’d have it.

In addition to your “financial requirements” of being a “real man” I also took care of the house maintenance, garden, nursing my wife when she was ill, all those sort of things. And my wife was, in this real man’s eyes, a “real woman”. So real she managed to keep me by her side for 42 years. And of course, my elder son is a “real man” just like me. They are about, these real men.



Look. You are blaming your husband for the position your marriage is in. Well guess what. You will never change your husband, the only person you can change is yourself. And I was saying to you, as a “real man” (in your own terms) I would not want to know you based on your initial post. It really is that simple.

But then again I’m “old school”. My son of 39 years though is very much like me in that he has the same qualities and beliefs, he will always be able to cover his life’s costs and will never abdicate that responsibility to anyone else including his wife, just like his dad.

Once a man has abdicated financial responsibility for his and his family’s life he has lost so much of what being a man is all about, at least as far as I’m concerned. That’s what feminists who’d have stay at home dads just don’t understand and the dads only find it out later when it’s probably too late.


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## VermisciousKnid

Wow. I could write a book on this. But since you said "when" and not "why" I'll focus on just one thing - then and now. I'm not so sure that then was better in any way except that it was simpler in that roles were more clearly defined. That and the fact that many families could live comfortably on a single wage. Now, the roles are fluid which makes things more complex, which increases the chances and problems of miscommunication. A single wage is no longer sufficient for a middle class lifestyle in many cases, so again, the pressure ramps up. There's more pressure and more people cracking under it. I'm not sure that it affects men more than women.

In my own case, my W is afflicted with "have it all' syndrome. I do over half of the cooking, cleaning, and food shopping, almost all of the yard work, plus big stuff like building decks and patios, and finishing basements. Is the W happy with that? Nope. She's unhappy that she has job stress and not enough free time and she projects it on me. I've told her to cut out the things that she volunteers for and not to expect that the people that you work with will be competent or nice. No go. She wants the world to be perfect and ordered just the way she wants it. She wants me to be perfect and just the way she thinks I should be. I'm far from perfect, but that doesn't bother me because I always strive to be better. But, I am paying the price for her unrealistic expectations. 

I guess I could say. "when did women start thinking they could have it all, and why haven't they realized that it is impossible?"

Sorry to take this in a different direction, but it strikes me as a parallel trend to "men stopping being men."


----------



## Halien

AFEH said:


> :rofl: I'd run a mile from you. You wouldn't see me for dust lol.


Not at all!!! Not to make light of such a sad situation, but the OP sounds like someone who could really appreciate a real man. Maybe some could take the tone as scorn, but imagine the feeling of loss that comes when realizing that all the hopes and dreams we had before marriage are never realized. She didn't ask for much - just someone who could be a man.

I do think that it is possible in nearly every part of the country to find ourselves in a very insulated environment, where the men or women don't tend to reflect our own hopes in them. My wife and I moved to a city where men are often described as 'mousy'. I started my career with the hourly union guys, and prefer to have friends here, along with close co-workers. So, when we moved to this city, we chose a house in an older neighborhood (think Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino). I'm a global platform tech manager now, but on any given Saturday night, one of my neighbors is having a neighborhood barbecue, and its nice to be around real, salt of the earth people.


----------



## R.J.

@AFEH, I'm really confused. How am I blaming my husband for the position in my marriage? I never blamed him for anything. If you read the original post, you'd see that I only brought him up to emphasize the point of the topic. I originally started my post off by referring to many of the other posts that I retrieved from different threads in other forums. Majority of my original post focuses on the information that I've retrieved from TAM. I don't know why so many men are convinced that I've based my perception solely off of my situation. I've made my conclusion based on so many women on TAM who have discussed this topic as issues in their marriages.

I'm so grateful that you were a providing husband. Sounds like you did EVERYTHING and didn't leave your wife to do much at all. I imagine she's a very satisfied woman. Also, because based on your definition of a "real man" and the fact that you've totally lived up to that, I would imagine that your son would follow in the same footsteps which is also GREAT. At least we know for sure that there are two men in this world who are real.

The fact still remains that so many husbands simply aren't stepping up and taking care of their families as you and your son have. I can't stress enough that I'm not referring to all men. If you don't fit into this subset of men, that great but you can't tell me that you haven't noticed this situation and that you don't have an opinion about it.

Also, I keep getting responses from both men and women who're questioning the role(s) that I've played in my household to promote my husband's lack of providing. The truth is, I have no idea how I could've promoted it. Perhaps when I stepped up and payed all of our bills because he refused to do so. Or maybe when I decided to clean the house because he'd allow a mess to build up while he sat and watched sports or played the video game. Maybe I promoted it when I made arrangements for us to see pastors, counselors, therapists, family, and even friends in order to help us understand each other's perspective, expectations, and lacking in the marriage. However, instead of utilizing these individuals as tools to make us better, he took the opportunity to convince everyone that I'm the blame for all of his own personal downfalls. I may have even promoted his nonproviding behavior when I offered to pay in full for his education for him to go back to school to persue a degree of some sort in order to provide more for the family. However, instead of taking advantage of my offer, he made a thousand excuses as to why it isn't feasible to go back. It could be possible that I enabled his behavior when I suggested that maybe I should go back to school and obtain a Master's degree so that I can increase my income and bring in more for the family, but instead of even considering that option, he became jealous and asked me, "why is it that you're the only one who could get an education?" WHAT???? I probably enhanced his behavioor when I took us on all of those vacations (completely on my dime) in hope that it would draw us together and motivate him to try harder so that he could do things like that for the family, but instead he'd raise he!! on the trip and we'd have to end it early.

People I can go on and on. Trust and believe I didn't just role over and conclude that many men have given up on their roles as leaders. I've gone through it, SEVERAL other women have gone through it, and I'm very certain that many of you have seen it as well. It's a sad fact.


----------



## R.J.

VermisciousKnid said:


> I'm not so sure that then was better in any way except that it was simpler in that roles were more clearly defined. That and the fact that many families could live comfortably on a single wage. Now, the roles are fluid which makes things more complex, which increases the chances and problems of miscommunication. A single wage is no longer sufficient for a middle class lifestyle in many cases, so again, the pressure ramps up. There's more pressure and more people cracking under it. :iagree:
> 
> I guess I could say. "when did women start thinking they could have it all, and why haven't they realized that it is impossible?" There you go...a topic for a new thread. This is about the men, but I'm not suggesting that there aren't failures on the woman's behalf.


----------



## ocotillo

Well I have to admit to being a little confused too. 

If the ideals of feminism, such as social equality, equal pay for equal work, equal employment opportunity for equal qualifications, equal advancement for equal merit, and the elimination of sexism are morally defensible, (And I certainly think they are) then how is this a gender issue at all?

Isn't a failure to materially provide for your family more a failure as a parent, a spouse and a human being rather than failure as *a man*?


----------



## Acorn

R.J. said:


> The fact still remains that so many husbands simply aren't stepping up and taking care of their families as you and your son have. I can't stress enough that I'm not referring to all men. If you don't fit into this subset of men, that great but you can't tell me that you haven't noticed this situation and that you don't have an opinion about it.


RJ, personally I can really feel for you as it sounds like you have a dud for a husband, and maybe the point of this thread is just to vent.

That being said, the way you are portraying things is very prejudicial and sexist IMO. There are a lot of women that have turned their back on their husbands and families too.

I've seen one of my friends destroy his family due to alcoholism, and I've seen another be ripped apart by his wife's sexual neglect. Some people just aren't cut out to be a good partner - people suck sometimes. It's not just men.


----------



## R.J.

ocotillo said:


> Well I have to admit to being a little confused too.
> 
> If the ideals of feminism, such as social equality, equal pay for equal work, equal employment opportunity for equal qualifications, equal advancement for equal merit, and the elimination of sexism are morally defensible, (And I certainly think they are) then how is this a gender issue at all?
> 
> Isn't a failure to materially provide for your family more a failure as a parent, a spouse and a human being rather than failure as *a man*?


 This thread isn't focusing on the "ideals of feminism." This is about men who aren't doing their part(s) for the success of the family. It isn't even about "failure to materially provide for your family." Many men aren't providing in ANY WAY…not materially, emotionally, mentally, or financially. This thread focuses on the MEN who are simply allowing their wives to DO IT ALL while they refuse to play any role in the marriage.

The question is why do you think this is the case? I'm not really understanding what the debate is here. It's a FACT that some men aren't contributing. What's the argument folks?


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> @AFEH, I'm really confused. How am I blaming my husband for the position in my marriage? I never blamed him for anything. If you read the original post, you'd see that I only brought him up to emphasize the point of the topic. I originally started my post off by referring to many of the other posts that I retrieved from different threads in other forums. Majority of my original post focuses on the information that I've retrieved from TAM. I don't know why so many men are convinced that I've based my perception solely off of my situation. I've made my conclusion based on so many women on TAM who have discussed this topic as issues in their marriages.
> 
> I'm so grateful that you were a providing husband. *Sounds like you did EVERYTHING and didn't leave your wife to do much at all.* I imagine she's a very satisfied woman. Also, because based on your definition of a "real man" and the fact that you've totally lived up to that, I would imagine that your son would follow in the same footsteps which is also GREAT. At least we know for sure that there are two men in this world who are real.
> 
> The fact still remains that so many husbands simply aren't stepping up and taking care of their families as you and your son have. I can't stress enough that I'm not referring to all men. If you don't fit into this subset of men, that great but you can't tell me that you haven't noticed this situation and that you don't have an opinion about it.
> 
> Also, I keep getting responses from both men and women who're questioning the role(s) that I've played in my household to promote my husband's lack of providing. The truth is, I have no idea how I could've promoted it. Perhaps when I stepped up and payed all of our bills because he refused to do so. Or maybe when I decided to clean the house because he'd allow a mess to build up while he sat and watched sports or played the video game. Maybe I promoted it when I made arrangements for us to see pastors, counselors, therapists, family, and even friends in order to help us understand each other's perspective, expectations, and lacking in the marriage. However, instead of utilizing these individuals as tools to make us better, he took the opportunity to convince everyone that I'm the blame for all of his own personal downfalls. I may have even promoted his nonproviding behavior when I offered to pay in full for his education for him to go back to school to persue a degree of some sort in order to provide more for the family. However, instead of taking advantage of my offer, he made a thousand excuses as to why it isn't feasible to go back. It could be possible that I enabled his behavior when I suggested that maybe I should go back to school and obtain a Master's degree so that I can increase my income and bring in more for the family, but instead of even considering that option, he became jealous and asked me, "why is it that you're the only one who could get an education?" WHAT???? I probably enhanced his behavioor when I took us on all of those vacations (completely on my dime) in hope that it would draw us together and motivate him to try harder so that he could do things like that for the family, but instead he'd raise he!! on the trip and we'd have to end it early.
> 
> People I can go on and on. Trust and believe I didn't just role over and conclude that many men have given up on their roles as leaders. I've gone through it, SEVERAL other women have gone through it, and I'm very certain that many of you have seen it as well. It's a sad fact.


The sarcasm in there is amazing. Believe you me she did one heck of a lot and kept me well satisfied, that’s why I stayed with her for so very long.


Sounds like you have the male equivalent of the lazy stay at home mother on your hands (yes I know he’s earning). What did you expect with all this feminism stuff going on? I used to be a sales director. One of the reasons for hiring a particular person was the size of their mortgage, the bigger the better. Without that “real need” to earn money people, male and female are nowhere near as much motivated to succeed and earn.

In your own way you have removed your husband’s “need” to earn. It comes with the feminist territory. A strong man, a man who wants to be a man ignores that stuff and does what a man has to do.

You’ve made your bed! You don’t have to lay in it any longer, that is a choice you have.


----------



## mr.miketastic

ocotillo said:


> Well I have to admit to being a little confused too.
> 
> If the ideals of feminism, such as social equality, equal pay for equal work, equal employment opportunity for equal qualifications, equal advancement for equal merit, and the elimination of sexism are morally defensible, (And I certainly think they are) then how is this a gender issue at all?
> 
> Isn't a failure to materially provide for your family more a failure as a parent, a spouse and a human being rather than failure as *a man*?


:iagree:


----------



## R.J.

Acorn said:


> RJ, personally I can really feel for you as it sounds like you have a dud for a husband, and maybe the point of this thread is just to vent. I'm not venting at all. I originally just wanted to learn husband's perspective as to why they think that noncontributing husbands were content with their lack of support in their marriages. However, it eventually turned into me defending the reasons behind the originality of the post. And only a few husbands have actually answered the question.
> That being said, the way you are portraying things is very prejudicial and sexist IMO. There are a lot of women that have turned their back on their husbands and families too. Acorn, I swear I can't stress this enough. This thread is about MEN MEN MEN who aren't playing their roles in a marriage. I'm not saying that women don't have major faults too. I'm not discussing women at all. This is focusing specifically on MEN.


----------



## uphillbattle

In reading this I find it intresting that a man is not considered a "real man" unless he is a provider in some form. Is that to say that a woman who doesn't do the housework or take care of the kids is not a "real woman"?
R.J. I am also courious as to why you would believe that most men are not "real men"? Maybe it's just the people I surround myself with but I see quite a few "real men" within my friends and family. I must admit that the ones who are not do stick out like a sore thumb.


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## CallaLily

R.J. said:


> The fact still remains that so many husbands simply aren't stepping up and taking care of their families


Maybe some men didn't have the best role models growing up? Even if they didn't, as an adult, they have a choice to apply what they were taught or if it wasn't the best thing taught, then they can learn to change it so they can become better at stepping up to be a better person/men/father/husband. 

I dunno, just my 2 cents.


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## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> This thread isn't focusing on the "ideals of feminism." This is about men who aren't doing their part(s) for the success of the family. It isn't even about "failure to materially provide for your family." Many men aren't providing in ANY WAY…not materially, emotionally, mentally, or financially. This thread focuses on the MEN who are simply allowing their wives to DO IT ALL while they refuse to play any role in the marriage.
> 
> The question is why do you think this is the case? I'm not really understanding what the debate is here. It's a FACT that some men aren't contributing. What's the argument folks?


The awnser to this is pretty simple. Some people men and women are just peices of **** and will walk all over anybody they are able to just so they can have everything they want and strive to do as little as they possibly can get away with for it. You get them in all walks of life of all genders, races and creeds.


----------



## R.J.

AFEH said:


> The sarcasm in there is amazing. Believe you me she did one heck of a lot and kept me well satisfied, that’s why I stayed with her for so very long.
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have the male equivalent of the lazy stay at home mother on your hands (yes I know he’s earning). What did you expect with all this feminism stuff going on? I used to be a sales director. One of the reasons for hiring a particular person was the size of their mortgage, the bigger the better. Without that “real need” to earn money people, male and female are nowhere near as much motivated to succeed and earn.
> 
> In your own way you have removed your husband’s “need” to earn. It comes with the feminist territory. A strong man, a man who wants to be a man ignores that stuff and does what a man has to do.
> 
> You’ve made your bed! You don’t have to lay in it any longer, that is a choice you have.


 AFEH, I'm very sorry you took my blessings to you and your family as sarcasm. I TRULY meant everything that I said. It's truly great to learn that some men do care and take pride into successfully taking care of their families.

I respectfully appreciate your opinions of me being a feminist, but that's not the case at all. I didn't take anything from my husband and I refuse to accept that blame from you or him. He chose not to step up and do what he needed to do for us. I didn't make him or prevent him from doing so in any way. I hate being the bread winner, home maker, and everything else that's needed to keep us afloat. I wish he'd step up and take over something, but unfortunately I just didn't marry a man like that.

Again, I'm not being sarcastic, angry, a feminist, pre-judicial or anything else that I've been accused of being on here. I simply wanted to learn from a man's perspective why they thought other men just stopped caring.

And yes I made my bed, but that doesn't mean I deserve to be taken advantage of and forced to take on all the pressures of the marriage simply because I thought I'd be marrying a partner and not my adult child.


----------



## trey69

RJ, I'm curious as to what a "real man" means to you. Can you list a few things that you feel what a real man would be?

If thats already been done or said, I apologize, because I have not read all of the responses yet.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Best line from "The Stepford Wives"

"While women were becoming men, men were becoming gods"


----------



## FrankKissel

Here's a thought, RJ: Stop projecting the failings of your husband/marriage on everyone else with your rambling screeds and overgeneralizations.

If your husband is as bad as you claim - and I'm sure you're not exaggerating or being one-sided (cough cough) - then I feel bad for you. But most husbands and fathers aren't like that. Please stop casting aspersions on an entire gender because of your difficulties with one of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mistys dad

Some men have finally reached the F*** it point.

I've seen it in many of my friends. The surrender. 

No matter what you do, she will never be happy. If you meet all of her requirements for happiness, she moves the goal line.

The car isn't new enough. The house isn't big enough. You don't do enough housework, you don't spend enough time with the kids.

Every conversation starts with "I want you to know I'm angry with you about........"

She hates her job, she hates her mother, she hates her boss, she fed up with the kids, drives angry, stays pissed off.

She surrounds herself with other women who can only speak in man-bash.

Then comes the day when the men realize that they are trying to shovel a whole in the ocean. The woman they loved has turned into an angry, sexless, hostile, opponent, instead of the loving partner they saw in the past.

The spirit is broken and the man begins to introvert. You can see it in their faces, the downward eyes, the shuffle along behind her, the hunched shoulders.

Now, to be sure, that does not describe all women, or most women, and is not intended to be a statement about any one woman. However, it is not an uncommon thing.


----------



## uphillbattle

FrankKissel said:


> Here's a thought, RJ: Stop projecting the failings of your husband/marriage on everyone else with your rambling screeds and overgeneralizations.
> 
> If your husband is as bad as you claim - and I'm sure you're not exaggerating our being one-sided (cough cough) - then I feel bad for you. But most husbands and fathers aren't like that. Please stop casting aspersions on an entire gender because of your difficulties with one of us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has said atleast 15 times that I can count that it is not ALL men that she speaks of, just most.


----------



## R.J.

FrankKissel said:


> Here's a thought, RJ: Stop projecting the failings of your husband/marriage on everyone else with your rambling screeds and overgeneralizations.
> 
> If your husband is as bad as you claim - and I'm sure you're not exaggerating our being one-sided (cough cough) - then I feel bad for you. But most husbands and fathers aren't like that. Please stop casting aspersions on an entire gender because of your difficulties with one of us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Forgive me for getting frustrated but read the damn posts. I KEEP SAYING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again that I'm not suggesting that all men are one way and ALSO that I've based my opinion off of my situation. I've based it not only because of my situation but also as a result of all the threads that I've read of other wives.

I won't respond to anyone else who attacks me like this. I will only comment to those who actually have an opinion of the topic and not an attack towards me!!!


----------



## trey69

Mistys dad said:


> Some men have finally reached the F*** it point.
> 
> I've seen it in many of my friends. The surrender.
> 
> No matter what you do, she will never be happy. If you meet all of her requirements for happiness, she moves the goal line.
> 
> The car isn't new enough. The house isn't big enough. You don't do enough housework, you don't spend enough time with the kids.
> 
> Every conversation starts with "I want you to know I'm angry with you about........"
> 
> She hates her job, she hates her mother, she hates her boss, she fed up with the kids, drives angry, stays pissed off.
> 
> She surrounds herself with other women who can only speak in man-bash.
> 
> Then comes the day when the men realize that they are trying to shovel a whole in the ocean. The woman they loved has turned into an angry, sexless, hostile, opponent, instead of the loving partner they saw in the past.
> 
> The spirit is broken and the man begins to introvert. You can see it in their faces, the downward eyes, the shuffle along behind her, the hunched shoulders.
> 
> No to be sure that does not describe all women, or most women, and is not intended to be a statement about any one woman. However, it is not an uncommon thing.


I have to wonder if maybe some men married into a woman already being like that from the get go, OR if maybe some men were a contributing factor as to to why their wives changed. And perhaps vice versa.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> AFEH, I'm very sorry you took my blessings to you and your family as sarcasm. I TRULY meant everything that I said. It's truly great to learn that some men do care and take pride into successfully taking care of their families.
> 
> I respectfully appreciate your opinions of me being a feminist, but that's not the case at all. I didn't take anything from my husband and I refuse to accept that blame from you or him. He chose not to step up and do what he needed to do for us. I didn't make him or prevent him from doing so in any way. I hate being the bread winner, home maker, and everything else that's needed to keep us afloat. I wish he'd step up and take over something, but unfortunately I just didn't marry a man like that.
> 
> Again, I'm not being sarcastic, angry, a feminist, pre-judicial or anything else that I've been accused of being on here. I simply wanted to learn from a man's perspective why they thought other men just stopped caring.
> 
> And yes I made my bed, but that doesn't mean I deserve to be taken advantage of and forced to take on all the pressures of the marriage simply because I thought I'd be marrying a partner and not my adult child.


Your man/husband could have existed in the 12th, 15th, 19th or 21st century. Got nothing to do with “modern man”.


The questions to ask yourself are why are you still with him and why do you tolerate his behaviour? You obviously believe yourself worthy of a better man, so why don’t you have a better man?


----------



## Mistys dad

trey69 said:


> I have to wonder if maybe some men married into a woman already being like that from the get go, OR if maybe some men were a contributing factor as to to why their wives changed. And perhaps vice versa.


No doubt.

No person is an island. Interactions are what make people.


----------



## chillymorn

some people are lazy and indifferent. can't see the forest through the trees type of people.

men and women husbands and wives!

if you happen to get hooked up with one of these type of people then its a rough road for sure.

my advice is to not put up with it....easier said than done for sure.

you don't have to be an a** about it just start calmly stating the facts whenever the situation arises if he don't catch on then its decision time either you love him with all his flaws or its a deal breaker only you know the answer and there is no wrong answer.


----------



## FrankKissel

uphillbattle said:


> She has said atleast 15 times that I can count that it is not ALL men that she speaks of, just most.


Even saying it's "most" is a false overgeneralization. If most - heck even if a significant minority - men were as she claims, the world as we know it would collapse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> Forgive me for getting frustrated but read the damn posts. I KEEP SAYING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again that I'm not suggesting that all men are one way and ALSO that I've based my opinion off of my situation. I've based it not only because of my situation but also as a result of all the threads that I've read of other wives.
> 
> I won't respond to anyone else who attacks me like this. I will only comment to those who actually have an opinion of the topic and not an attack towards me!!!


The problem you have is you’re generalising. I learnt not to do that a while back.

Why don’t you start a new thread just talking the specific problems you have with your husband and no generalising whatsoever. You’ll do it if you want to solve the issues, you wont if all you are doing is venting. We all need to vent and this is a good place for it.


----------



## uphillbattle

Mistys dad said:


> No doubt.
> 
> No person is an island. Interactions are what make people.


Yes, and character is what defines them. If you have someone with low character and no boundries you get a low life.


----------



## uphillbattle

FrankKissel said:


> Even saying it's "most" is a false overgeneralization. If most - heck even if a significant minority - men were as she claims, the world as we know it would collapse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I realize this, which is why a few posts back I asked why she would say most.


----------



## R.J.

Mistys dad said:


> Some men have finally reached the F*** it point.
> 
> I've seen it in many of my friends. The surrender.
> 
> No matter what you do, she will never be happy. If you meet all of her requirements for happiness, she moves the goal line.
> 
> Then comes the day when the men realize that they are trying to shovel a whole in the ocean. The woman they loved has turned into an angry, sexless, hostile, opponent, instead of the loving partner they saw in the past.


@Mistysdad, I have heard many men say that they've given up because they became convinced that nothing made their wives happy. They also accused their wives of always being angry. My husband has accused me of it, but he doesn't remember when I wasn't that way. At one point, not only was I doing it all but I did it with pride. I understood that times were tough and that he didn't have the means to provide and I still enjoyed coming home and taking care of it. HOWEVER, it got to the point where I realized that he expected me to do all of those things. He didn't try to make things easy on me at all. Everything that I deposited into us, he withdrew until there wasn't anything left. On special days like my birthday, anniversary or any other day that's meant to show love or appreciation, I got NOTHING. That hurts so badly. After awhile of dealing with an unappreciative, helpless man I became more hurt than anything. 

In terms of sex, how can I even get in the mood with someone like this. It isn't possible. It's not even like I don't want to, oppose to I JUST CAN'T. My body won't go there. I'm so turned off by his lack of effort in this marriage and making me happy (on his part) that I just have no ability to get in the mood. There's simply too much resentment.

Also, I try my best to surround myself around positive women who speak truly about relationships, love, and life. I don't need anyone jumping on my band wagon UNLESS they truly can relate. I do know a few women who are in my situation, but they still LOVE their spouses and have accepted his inability to support. They're ok with that. They don't mind doing it all and that's fine. However, I can't be that way. I do too much for us to accept feeling used. 

But I guess I can understand the "F*** it" attitude because that certainly seems to align with my husband's.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> I guess I could say. "when did women start thinking they could have it all, and why haven't they realized that it is impossible?" There you go...a topic for a new thread. This is about the men, but I'm not suggesting that there aren't failures on the woman's behalf.


That's just it. I think it's the same topic, different title. You're talking about changes in society that manifest different symptoms in men and women. I don't think that men have reacted more negatively than women, just differently.


----------



## R.J.

FrankKissel said:


> Even saying it's "most" is a false overgeneralization. If most - heck even if a significant minority - men were as she claims, the world as we know it would collapse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This world has just about collapsed so I guess you've validated your own point. Lol. However, that's a whole other discussion.:rofl:


----------



## trey69

Perhaps you are with the wrong person?


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> @Mistysdad, I have heard many men say that they've given up because they became convinced that nothing made their wives happy. They also accused their wives of always being angry. My husband has accused me of it, but he doesn't remember when I wasn't that way. At one point, not only was I doing it all but I did it with pride. I understood that times were tough and that he didn't have the means to provide and I still enjoyed coming home and taking care of it. HOWEVER, it got to the point where I realized that he expected me to do all of those things. He didn't try to make things easy on me at all. Everything that I deposited into us, he withdrew until there wasn't anything left. On special days like my birthday, anniversary or any other day that's meant to show love or appreciation, I got NOTHING. That hurts so badly. After awhile of dealing with an unappreciative, helpless man I became more hurt than anything.
> 
> In terms of sex, how can I even get in the mood with someone like this. It isn't possible. It's not even like I don't want to, oppose to I JUST CAN'T. My body won't go there. I'm so turned off by his lack of effort in this marriage and making me happy (on his part) that I just have no ability to get in the mood. There's simply too much resentment.
> 
> Also, I try my best to surround myself around positive women who speak truly about relationships, love, and life. I don't need anyone jumping on my band wagon UNLESS they truly can relate. I do know a few women who are in my situation, but they still LOVE their spouses and have accepted his inability to support. They're ok with that. They don't mind doing it all and that's fine. However, I can't be that way. I do too much for us to accept feeling used.
> 
> But I guess I can understand the "F*** it" attitude because that certainly seems to align with my husband's.


The problem with your husband has nothing to do with Myistysdad's "**** it" attitude. Your husbands "**** it" attitude came from the fact that he realized that he didn't need to do anything and could get by just fine. There is no reason for someone like that to change if they have the life they want. 

Change needs to come from you. You are the one who doesn't like the situation therefore you need to be the catalyst for change. You seem to already be the one in charge here, lay down the law and don't back down.


----------



## Bottled Up

This thread should be titled "When did my man stop being a man???" Your gender-profiling shows your lack of understanding about men in general, which means you don't have any position to make claims against us in the first place.

Usually a problem like this in a relationship is that there's either a lack of communication or a lack of understanding, or both. You both need to get to a point where you're having civilized, mutual and heart-felt discussions without arguing about what each other's needs are. you need to both feel like you're on the same level of playing field in the relationship. It's important that when you have these discussions that you come to the table with some of your own self-observations so the other person doesn't feel like it's a one-sided blame game and takes the defensive. You need to agree to work on things together, because when you work as a team you develop mutual appreciation for each other.

I'm sure your man has a few opinions about you as well... are you prepared to hear those with an open mind and try to work on yourself too?


----------



## R.J.

I think it's amazing how many men are doing their best to distract others from discussing the topic of this thread instead of just focusing on the underlying questions. You can argue that I'm generalizing (some, many, most, a few, etc.), being a feminist, judging all men…WHATEVER. However, for those out there with an opinion about the topic AND NOT THE TITLE, please discuss. If you need me to define (once again) the overall questions, they are "why do you think that so many men have accepted their wives doing all things to make the family successful and not contributing themselves? Why do you think that many of those men have become content with not supporting or providing in their households and would actually watch it fail instead of stepping up?"

Let's not get into generalizations, feminism, or anything else. Let's just focus on the questions. Even if you disagree with the questions, tell me why. Please don't say that it doesn't apply to you, your friends, your daddy, your uncle, your husband…etc. Just tell me why you agree or disagree.


----------



## FrankKissel

R.J. said:


> This world has just about collapsed so I guess you've validated your own point. Lol. However, that's a whole other discussion.:rofl:


Actually, the world has never been better. Looking at the big picture (i.e. Beyond the current recession) there's never been less poverty, less war, less disease, more freedom, more productivity, better access to clean water, etc. than there has been over the past decade or so. People are living longer, healthier lives. People have more leisure time than ever before.
There's never been a better time to live than the late 20th/early 21st century.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## R.J.

uphillbattle said:


> The problem with your husband has nothing to do with Myistysdad's "**** it" attitude. Your husbands "**** it" attitude came from the fact that he realized that he didn't need to do anything and could get by just fine. There is no reason for someone like that to change if they have the life they want. QUOTE] I guess you're right about that. Why should he do anything different when he has the world at his hands FOR FREE. Good point.


----------



## trey69

trey69 said:


> RJ, I'm curious as to what a "real man" means to you. Can you list a few things that you feel what a real man would be?
> 
> If thats already been done or said, I apologize, because I have not read all of the responses yet.


I just thought I would bring my question to this page, since it may have gotten missed.


----------



## Enchantment

R.J. said:


> @Mistysdad, I have heard many men say that they've given up because they became convinced that nothing made their wives happy. They also accused their wives of always being angry. My husband has accused me of it, but he doesn't remember when I wasn't that way. At one point, not only was I doing it all but I did it with pride. I understood that times were tough and that he didn't have the means to provide and I still enjoyed coming home and taking care of it. HOWEVER, it got to the point where I realized that he expected me to do all of those things. He didn't try to make things easy on me at all. Everything that I deposited into us, he withdrew until there wasn't anything left. On special days like my birthday, anniversary or any other day that's meant to show love or appreciation, I got NOTHING. That hurts so badly. After awhile of dealing with an unappreciative, helpless man I became more hurt than anything.
> 
> In terms of sex, how can I even get in the mood with someone like this. It isn't possible. It's not even like I don't want to, oppose to I JUST CAN'T. My body won't go there. I'm so turned off by his lack of effort in this marriage and making me happy (on his part) that I just have no ability to get in the mood. There's simply too much resentment.
> 
> Also, I try my best to surround myself around positive women who speak truly about relationships, love, and life. I don't need anyone jumping on my band wagon UNLESS they truly can relate. I do know a few women who are in my situation, but they still LOVE their spouses and have accepted his inability to support. They're ok with that. They don't mind doing it all and that's fine. However, I can't be that way. I do too much for us to accept feeling used.
> 
> But I guess I can understand the "F*** it" attitude because that certainly seems to align with my husband's.


I don't think it's right to compare the way your husband is and then extrapolate that to other's situations. Your situation is unique. One thing that is interesting, though, is that people (both men and women) are often content doing the least possible for the greatest benefit. That is kind of the situation that you and your husband are in. He is in the position where he is apparently doing the least amount possible and getting the greatest benefit possible (to him, but harming you and the marriage in the process.)

So, who is enabling that behaviour from him? Yes... you are. YOU do not have to tolerate and enable that behaviour in your marriage. One of the greatest things that we can do as a spouse is try and 'lift' our spouse during low times. Sometimes that can require a bit of finesse - sometimes it involves a soft touch and other times it may involve a swift kick. 

But, it any case, it requires ACTION on our own parts to get things moving. I hope that you will consider what kinds of actions that you can take to help rectify your situation.

Best wishes.


----------



## ocotillo

R.J. said:


> This thread isn't focusing on the "ideals of feminism."


Agreed. But that is tangential to the point here. The ideals of feminism have been expressed, defended and agreed with on this thread and they are not congruent with both the thread title and the OP

If sexism in our everyday speech and gender stereotypes are wrong, they are wrong. Period. 




R.J. said:


> This is about men who aren't doing their part(s) for the success of the family. It isn't even about "failure to materially provide for your family." Many men aren't providing in ANY WAY…not materially, emotionally, mentally, or financially.


Okay. But the broader and more inclusive the failing becomes, the smaller the subset of people it actually applies to will become and less it can legitimately be discussed as a gender specific flaw. 

You've implied that people who parsed the statements in the OP using standard rules of definition and grammar did not read it with an open mind. 

Could it be that you were simply upset when you wrote it? That's something that everyone here can sympathize with and commiserate with you on.


----------



## R.J.

Bottled Up said:


> This thread should be titled "When did my man stop being a man???" Your gender-profiling shows your lack of understanding about men in general, which means you don't have any position to make claims against us in the first place. I think it's amazing how many men are doing their best to distract others from discussing the topic of this thread instead of just focusing on the underlying questions. You can argue that I'm generalizing (some, many, most, a few, etc.), being a feminist, judging all men…WHATEVER. However, for those out there with an opinion about the topic AND NOT THE TITLE, please discuss
> 
> I'm sure your man has a few opinions about you as well... are you prepared to hear those with an open mind and try to work on yourself too?


 I've spent 3 years listening to how much of a f*** up I've been, but not one time have I heard what I can do to make things better. It's all a blame game for him and I've realized it's only to avoid taking accountability for the things he KNOWS he has done to hurt the marriage. So to answer your question, NO I'm not prepared to hear his opinions about me any longer. Additionally, because I obviously could never have a discussion with him about any of my issues, I decided to obtain opinions from the public in hope they could help me understand the possible views of not only my husband, but so many other husbands who are not providing as well.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> I think it's amazing how many men are doing their best to distract others from discussing the topic of this thread instead of just focusing on the underlying questions. You can argue that I'm generalizing (some, many, most, a few, etc.), being a feminist, judging all men…WHATEVER. However, for those out there with an opinion about the topic AND NOT THE TITLE, please discuss. If you need me to define (once again) the overall questions, they are *"why do you think that so many men have accepted their wives doing all things to make the family successful and not contributing themselves?* Why do you think that many of those men have become content with not supporting or providing in their households and would actually watch it fail instead of stepping up?"
> 
> Let's not get into generalizations, feminism, or anything else. Let's just focus on the questions. Even if you disagree with the questions, tell me why. Please don't say that it doesn't apply to you, your friends, your daddy, your uncle, your husband…etc. Just tell me why you agree or disagree.


You mean that type of situation is new? That there’s more men like that than there ever were before?

What are you basing that on? Where are your figures for it, say 19th vs. 20th century or 1960s vs. 2000/10. How can you possibly make such a sweeping generalisation? Me as an old timer I’d say Feminism and Liberalism has cost us all (tax payers at least) a great deal and we haven’t seen anything as yet.

But as I said before you’ll find lazy, bone idle men no matter what decade or century you look into or lived in. Thing is why did you pick him? Maybe all Feminism and Liberalism has done is made lazy, bone idle men even more lazy and even more bone idle?


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> If you need me to define (once again) the overall questions, they are "why do you think that so many men have accepted their wives doing all things to make the family successful and not contributing themselves? Why do you think that many of those men have become content with not supporting or providing in their households and would actually watch it fail instead of stepping up?"


To awnser your first question, because they have been given a situation that they can exploit. By the actions of the enabling spouse in these situations the lazy spouse realizes that they don't need to lift a finger and the gravy train will chug along just fine.

The second question is a little more murkey. The bills are paid and the home is kept up. What are they watching fail? The enabling spouse won't let it fail so you have no idea what they would do in that situation. I am assuming that most people who turn into the lazy spouse didn't start that way (if they did then it is just as much the fault of the person being walked on) so it would seem that they are atleast capable of doing what is needed to get by when forced to.


----------



## Jamison

R.J. said:


> I've spent 3 years listening to how much of a f*** up I've been, but not one time have I heard what I can do to make things better. It's all a blame game for him and I've realized it's only to avoid taking accountability for the things he KNOWS he has done to hurt the marriage. So to answer your question, NO I'm not prepared to hear his opinions about me any longer. Additionally, because I obviously could never have a discussion with him about any of my issues, I decided to obtain opinions from the public in hope they could help me understand the possible views of not only my husband, but so many other husbands who are not providing as well.


May I ask why you stay? It appears you do not get much from the relationship. You did state on a few pages back you were not one of those women who was willing to sit back and accept things as they are. So since you can't change him, what are your plans?


----------



## Yardman

^ What Trey69 said

I don't know why your spouse quit contributing to the marriage


----------



## Mistys dad

*"why do you think that so many men have accepted their wives doing all things to make the family successful and not contributing themselves? Why do you think that many of those men have become content with not supporting or providing in their households and would actually watch it fail instead of stepping up?"*

OK, I'll give it a shot.

I believe your use of the word "many" is not accurate. The vast majority of men that I come in contact with try their best to be good husbands, providers, partners, etc.

There will always be a percentage of failures in any group. I believe that you are over emphasizing that percentage because, unfortunately, you got one.

Basing your opinions of men, marriages, relationships on the general topics found on this site (and others like it) gives a skewed view.

It would be similar to going to an automotive help site and deciding that a disproportionately high number of that car brand has problems. Or, that a disproportionately high number of that brand suffer from one, single, issue more than others.

People don't often go to sites like this to say how wonderful their situation is. It is more likely that the site attracts the issues.


----------



## Bottled Up

R.J. said:


> Let's not get into generalizations, feminism, or anything else. Let's just focus on the questions. Even if you disagree with the questions, tell me why. Please don't say that it doesn't apply to you, your friends, your daddy, your uncle, your husband…etc. Just tell me why you agree or disagree.


Problem is, you're getting a reaction from men because you did in fact generalize. And you're making claims that many men do things which is purely a claim of assumption without statistics. Your assumption that many men do this may in fact be true, but it discounts the ideology that it is also very not true for many others. Even if your proof is merely that many of your girlfriends have similar relationships, that's more a case of coincidence than a premise for fact.

Fact: I'm on the opposite side of the game. I step up every day and do more than my fair share, and there's plenty that my wife doesn't see and doesn't acknowledge me for. Other men I know experience the same thing... I'm friends mostly with guys who "step up" in life and take responsibility. But I'm not blaming women for these things my wife doesn't see, and part of me is to blame for not communicating to her some things she doesn't see that I do. 

But the biggest part of me not communicating to her these things is that I'm starting to recognize that as an equal in this marriage, I shouldn't be _expecting_ her to see everything I do because they are a part of my responsibilities as an equal. Rather than trying to earn points with my wife, I'm just doing things because I should be... and I'm getting better with that realization all the time.

Maybe your man doesn't understand this fundamental ideology of responsibility and he needs his eyes opened to it without a forceful approach.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> I've spent 3 years listening to how much of a f*** up I've been, but not one time have I heard what I can do to make things better. It's all a blame game for him and I've realized it's only to avoid taking accountability for the things he KNOWS he has done to hurt the marriage. So to answer your question, NO I'm not prepared to hear his opinions about me any longer. Additionally, because I obviously could never have a discussion with him about any of my issues, I decided to obtain opinions from the public in hope they could help me understand the possible views of not only my husband, but so many other husbands who are not providing as well.


He wont change, people like that don’t but you just haven’t figured that out yet. I think you generalise because you want to make what your H has a general illness, like he has measles or something. He can’t be so bad because lots of other men have it.

If that is the case then you’re simply not living up to the truth of who your husband is. You know it, which is good, but you are refusing to accept it (many other men have it, can’t be so bad) which is bad. It means you still have him on a pedestal, albeit a small one.



The normal advice in these situations is to do the 180 for three months or so and see if that affects change in your husband. If within that time he hasn’t stepped up to the mark then you hand him divorce papers. It’s only when they’re actually standing over the precipice that people like your H change, but even then there’s no guarantee.


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> I've spent 3 years listening to how much of a f*** up I've been, but not one time have I heard what I can do to make things better. It's all a blame game for him and I've realized it's only to avoid taking accountability for the things he KNOWS he has done to hurt the marriage. So to answer your question, NO I'm not prepared to hear his opinions about me any longer. Additionally, because I obviously could never have a discussion with him about any of my issues, I decided to obtain opinions from the public in hope they could help me understand the possible views of not only my husband, but so many other husbands who are not providing as well.


Why do you put up with being a parent to the person you are supposed to be a partner with? If you say it is because you love him then I am calling bull****, you may love who you thought he was or who he was when you met but you do not love the person in front of you now. So why have you allowed him to get this bad? For your vows? You mean the ones he has broken? For ****s sake change the enviroment you are in, weather it be by kicking him to the curb or atleast by placing some boundries and sticking to them.


----------



## Lon

RJ I've really tried to avoid this thread because of the gender bias that seems so apparent, however you keep asking one primary question here about what causes a man to lose his drive/ambition, so I will offer my opinion. There are 2 possibilities that come to mind 1) he is really effective at being lazy and is actually getting all his needs met without having to do any work to meet yours, or 2) he has depression. If its the former it means you have to start establishing and enforcing your boundaries and that is probably best accomplished with the help of a pro MC, if its the latter he needs to fix himself meaning medication and/or therapy - he won't have the initiative to start this himself without major prompting, such as you establishing and enforcing some boundaries.

So, IMO if I didn't make it clear enough in the last paragraph, you have one course of action regardless and that is to *establish and enforce your boundaries* in this relationship, and if he acts within those boundaries to accept without criticism.


----------



## Yardman

Perhaps a thread with a title like,
"Why won't my Husband Contribute to the Marriage",
would give you better answers.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

R.J. said:


> I've spent 3 years listening to how much of a f*** up I've been, but not one time have I heard what I can do to make things better. It's all a blame game for him and I've realized it's only to avoid taking accountability for the things he KNOWS he has done to hurt the marriage. So to answer your question, NO I'm not prepared to hear his opinions about me any longer. Additionally, because I obviously could never have a discussion with him about any of my issues, I decided to obtain opinions from the public in hope they could help me understand the possible views of not only my husband, but so many other husbands who are not providing as well.


What you have described for your marriage sounds a lot like the female equivalent of a "nice guy" (in the No More Mr. Nice Guy mold). You have bent over backwards to please your husband. He has come to expect it, and has lost respect/attraction to you as a person. You have become resentful and angry because you expect him to do something in return. He is not changing because he has no reason to change. For example, when he did not clean up around the house, you did it for him.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> If you need me to define (once again) the overall questions, they are "why do you think that so many men have accepted their wives doing all things to make the family successful and not contributing themselves? Why do you think that many of those men have become content with not supporting or providing in their households and would actually watch it fail instead of stepping up?"
> 
> Let's not get into generalizations...


You make a generalization and then say let's not get into generalizations. That means you're looking for one specific thing, a defect present in men only, to account for this epidemic? I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I can't imagine saying the same thing about women.

Simply, I think that people with low self-worth (men AND women) are prone to letting their spouses bear a disproportionate share of the burden.


----------



## Scannerguard

I think there are two issues going on here. . .

A. Her marriage. To that, I answer - whatever. Won't get into that. Could be depression - sounds reasonable. The topic is a political question.

B. The politics.

The OP is postulating that men's "work ethic" has changed over the years, since oh, about circa 1960.

She wants a reason as to perhaps why. . .I am offering a reason. (or affirming what someone else offered). I am not necessarily offering an excuse.

Now, you can buy it or not buy it but I say millions of women displacing men from the workforce/breadwinner position has had repercussions beyond just a few cents/hour difference at work.



> I'm just giving my take on why the 60s revolution happened.


Yeah, and how's that working for America lately? 

Look, I am not, nor have I ever said, feminism didn't need to happen in some form or shape. . .nor do I think it should be eradicated.

We just need something different. We need a new generation of women to lead women back into the home and the art of homemaking/childrearing, while we have a new generation of men instill a positive work ethic and that sense of provision we lost.

I confess I have gone through periods of inadequacy and feeling irrelevant; it can certainly zap your work ethic.

I went through a time when I heard, "Wow, he's a great father" to mean "Wow, he can't provide." I go so tired of hearing "You're a great father" I actually told people to stop saying it.

Not saying I was right, but gee whiz, I don't want to be doing doctor visits, cooking, cleaning, laundry, food shopping. I WANT TO WORK.

Now, as a single father, I am doing both. . .just kinda only solved half of my problem.

Judge me however you want. I can take it. But I just want to be able to work 40, 50, 60 hour work weeks and I can't, because I have to be changing diapers and wiping noses. Yes, I admit I am jealous of my father's generation, who didn't have to put up with that crap and they get their daughter's undying "eyelash batting" about what great men their Daddy's were. Hell, Daddy never changed your diaper and never you took you to the doctor.

I may as well wear a housecoat and curlers (except I have no hair  )

I'm kind of "free associating" here. . .not really a concise reply, but just giving you raw emotions on perhaps why the male work ethic has declined over the years.


----------



## AFEH

Tall Average Guy said:


> What you have described for your marriage sounds a lot like the female equivalent of a "nice guy" (in the No More Mr. Nice Guy mold). You have bent over backwards to please your husband. He has come to expect it, and has lost respect/attraction to you as a person. You have become resentful and angry because you expect him to do something in return. He is not changing because he has no reason to change. For example, when he did not clean up around the house, you did it for him.


I was going to say the same thing and that does seem to be a new syndrome. Maybe some women have caught it.

Are you a doormat R.J. ? You don’t seem to me to be one, you’ve a lot of backbone and stand up well for yourself.


----------



## R.J.

Now I'm about to "GENERALIZE." You men are ridiculous. No matter how many times I say that I'm not specifically referring to my own situation, but also those of the women on TAM, you still keep leading back to me specifically. I'm about done with this thread because it's getting no where. I don't need to retitle my thread anything except what it is. I wanted to know why people think that some (many, a few, and which other adjective you wanna use to describe a subset) men refuse to step up and help their families make it and all I got was a bunch of men accusing me of generalizing them all because of my husband. This is absurd. 

To those who did focus on the questions at hand I do appreciate the discussion. It was nice to read your views, challenge a few, and gain a different perspective. To those who butchered my thread with all the claims of feminism, generalizations, corrupted title, and everything else, thanks a lot for nothing. Your points still haven't been made. The only thing you've proven is that "many men can't focus on any specific topic."


----------



## Bottled Up

Scannerguard, you said you can take the judgement so here goes...



Scannerguard said:


> The OP is postulating that men's "work ethic" has changed over the years, since oh, about circa 1960.
> 
> She wants a reason as to perhaps why. . .I am offering a reason. (or affirming what someone else offered). I am not necessarily offering an excuse.
> 
> Now, you can buy it or not buy it but I say millions of women displacing men from the workforce/breadwinner position has had repercussions beyond just a few cents/hour difference at work.


Because those men can't get used to the idea that their civilization as a whole is evolving. They'd rather stay behind, left in the times where oppression gave them the advantage of not having as much responsibilities or involvement in the home. It's a time where 1 salary (albeit perhaps on 60 hours/week) could still provide an income support whereas now even today it cannot. Most people need a 2-income salary family now, the notion of "breadwinner" is essentially devolving, mostly to those only rich enough to relegate themselves as the upper class in society.

Today's more modern society has evolved in such that it thrusts both men and women into an "equal responsibility" level regarding the entire relationship as a whole; both financially and emotionally for each other and their children.

It's more about being a human being these days and simply "pulling your weight" on the whole rather than delegating responsibilities off as if one was not fit to perform them.



Scannerguard said:


> Not saying I was right, but gee whiz, I don't want to be doing doctor visits, cooking, cleaning, laundry, food shopping. I WANT TO WORK.


Then you are not mentally appreciative of the responsibilities of a modern day provider. Rather than taking pride in what it means to support your children as a parent, these requirements for their health and maturation have become the bane of your existence.



Scannerguard said:


> Yes, I admit I am jealous of my father's generation, who didn't have to put up with that crap and they get their daughter's undying "eyelash batting" about what great men their Daddy's were. Hell, Daddy never changed your diaper and never you took you to the doctor.


So you're resentful that society has modernized to the point where you don't get to oppress others while doing less work around the home. Do you even enjoy being a father/provider?



Scannerguard said:


> ...not really a concise reply, but just giving you raw emotions on perhaps why the male work ethic has declined over the years.


Nope, just your own work ethic decline...


----------



## R.J.

@Bottled Up, I know that I said I was done, but I had to comment on this. All I wanted from people was to express their opinions about why they believed the reasons are behind some men not playing a meaningful role in their marriages. I can't believe that "Scannerguard" can come on here and express his strong opinions about his perception of a man's role and he's hardly getting attacked. Yet I pose a question and every man on this site is out to get me.

That's crazy. Lol.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> @Bottled Up, I know that I said I was done, but I had to comment on this. All I wanted from people was to express their opinions about why they believed the reasons are behind some men not playing a meaningful role in their marriages. I can't believe that "Scannerguard" can come on here and express his strong opinions about his perception of a man's role and he's hardly getting attacked. Yet I pose a question and every man on this site is out to get me.
> 
> That's crazy. Lol.


Scanners rational.

I know. Us men are supposed to "understand" you. Guess what we don't and the minute we recognise that our life improves.


----------



## CallaLily

I saw where some people did give you some suggestions/ thoughts on your original post. I was one of them several pages back. 

However, if you find what some people said offensive, or they are just not getting what you're trying to say/ask, then its best to focus on the ones you feel get what you're saying and are helpful. You seem to have replied back mostly to those who ruffled your feathers.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> @Bottled Up, I know that I said I was done, but I had to comment on this. All I wanted from people was to express their opinions about why they believed the reasons are behind some men not playing a meaningful role in their marriages. I can't believe that "Scannerguard" can come on here and express his strong opinions about his perception of a man's role and he's hardly getting attacked. *Yet I pose a question and every man on this site is out to get me.*
> 
> That's crazy. Lol.


That sounds paranoid. Many men have tried to help you. In fact each of us have in our own unique (not generalised) way.

You'll never see it.


----------



## R.J.

CallaLily said:


> I saw where some people did give you some suggestions/ thoughts on your original post. I was one of them several pages back.
> 
> However, if you find what some people said offensive, or they are just not getting what you're trying to say/ask, then its best to focus on the ones you feel get what you're saying and are helpful. You seem to have replied back mostly to those who ruffled your feathers.


*To those who did focus on the questions at hand I do appreciate the discussion. It was nice to read your views, challenge a few, and gain a different perspective*


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> *To those who did focus on the questions at hand I do appreciate the discussion. It was nice to read your views, challenge a few, and gain a different perspective*


Do you really not know *RED* is used for danger?

If you don’t you have so many ways you can improve your life.


----------



## trey69

R.J. said:


> Yet I pose a question and every man on this site is out to get me.
> 
> That's crazy. Lol.



I wasn't out to get you or attack you. I actually asked you a question a few pages back, that you never answered. I asked it twice, and even brought it to another page, in case you missed it, because I know that can sometimes happen, but apparently it still got missed.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

R.J. said:


> @Bottled Up, I know that I said I was done, but I had to comment on this. All I wanted from people was to express their opinions about why they believed the reasons are behind some men not playing a meaningful role in their marriages. I can't believe that "Scannerguard" can come on here and express his strong opinions about his perception of a man's role and he's hardly getting attacked. Yet I pose a question and every man on this site is out to get me.
> 
> That's crazy. Lol.


Here is the flip side - this happened to Annagarret in her thread here>>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/27713-why-i-love-men.html


.....She got jumped on by some women for thinking she was generalizing that all men are GREAT !! I guess it is the words of the thread -that makes defences go up .... I even tried to defend her as I didn't take it that way at all. Just as I didn't really take yours that way either. I understood your intention. 

But still, on this forum....any HINT of *generalizing*, someone will let you know, just part of the territory here. We can still work it all out- with the back & forth.


----------



## R.J.

CallaLily said:


> You seem to have replied back mostly to those who ruffled your feathers.


 You are very right CallaLily and that's not fair on my end. I was getting attacked left and right by men whom probably feel guilty because I hit too close to home in the discussion, that I didn't even capture some of the comments that focused on the actual topic.

I think at this point I'm taking it too seriously. These people don't know neither me nor my situation so there's no need for me to get excited over their opinions. Also, I've been so busy defending myself that I don't think I've even given my answer to my questions.

I agree with those who've said that myself (and perhaps other wives) have enabled our husbands to take advantage of us because we give them all the power to do so. Some have said that the enabling comes from wives not putting our feet down and demand our husbands to step up. However, this is easier said than done. I can't speak for all women, but my lack of enforcement exceeds love. Love has nothing to do with this. I can't just stop paying the bills and hope that he'd pick up my slack. I can't live in filth and pray he'd clean up. I can't stop buying food. The only thing that I could do is leave, which is CERTAINLY in the makings. However, this thread wasn't about me specifically so I didn't want to get into my personal plans, etc. 

I just wanted to talk about other folk's thoughts about the topic. PERIOD.


----------



## AFEH

trey69 said:


> I wasn't out to get you or attack you. I actually asked you a question a few pages back, that you never answered. I asked it twice, and even brought it to another page, in case you missed it, because I know that can sometimes happen, but apparently it still got missed.


Hormones


----------



## Mistys dad

R.J. said:


> *To those who did focus on the questions at hand I do appreciate the discussion. It was nice to read your views, challenge a few, and gain a different perspective*


OK.

You did generalize.

You took it off topic in several places.

Your got angry and frustrated because you didn't get the chorus of "Poor you" that you were looking for. 

People tried to answer your question and you sought out an argument in everything that didn't fit into your definition.

You changed the parameters of the discussion several times to steer the answers that you wanted to hear.

Now your going to use the big red letters, again, and play the victim, again.

So your going to take your ball and go home.

Oh, that's right. you already left.


----------



## Amplexor

SimplyAmorous said:


> But still, on this forum....any HINT of *generalizing*, someone will let you know, just part of the territory here.


I think you are generalizing the the members of TAM.


----------



## R.J.

AFEH said:


> Do you really not know *RED* is used for danger?
> 
> If you don’t you have so many ways you can improve your life.


AFEH, just when I was beginning to gain a more positive perception of you and your views, you went ahead and reverted back to the immaturity. 

I realize that you're just trying to push my buttons but you can stop now. I realize that this is an open discussion and everyone has right to their opinion, thoughts, or comments (even if I feel attacked by them). I feel I've been too defensive on here and not focusing on the topic. I've allowed you and others to steer me away from my questions, while those such as Callalily, have tried to provide their input.

So please, go and take care of your wife and your 39 year old son and allow the adults to have a mature conversation.


----------



## trey69

R.J. said:


> AFEH, just when I was beginning to gain a more positive perception of you and your views, you went ahead and reverted back to the immaturity.
> 
> I realize that you're just trying to push my buttons but you can stop now. I realize that this is an open discussion and everyone has right to their opinion, thoughts, or comments (even if I feel attacked by them). I feel I've been too defensive on here and not focusing on the topic. I've allowed you and others to steer me away from my questions, while those such as Callalily, have tried to provide their input.
> 
> So please, go and take care of your wife and your 39 year old son and allow the adults to have a mature conversation.


It seems AFEH gets to you worse than anyone here...what are you getting out of continuing to respond to him?


----------



## R.J.

Mistys dad said:


> OK.
> 
> You did generalize.
> 
> You took it off topic in several places.
> 
> Your got angry and frustrated because you didn't get the chorus of "Poor you" that you were looking for.
> 
> People tried to answer your question and you sought out an argument in everything that didn't fit into your definition.
> 
> You changed the parameters of the discussion several times to steer the answers that you wanted to hear.
> 
> Now your going to use the big red letters, again, and play the victim, again.
> 
> So your going to take your ball and go home.
> 
> Oh, that's right. you already left.


@MistysDad, I'm shocked to get this from you. I thought you were one of the better ones on here, but I suppose not. I don't understand why you're accusing me of portraying myself as a victim. Last I checked this forum wasn't solely about me, but also other wives. 

I steered the conversation away from the topic trying to defend the topic. Just like I'm doing RIGHT now. Geez. 

Oh and I'm not using "BIG RED LETTERS" to suggest anger or to emphasize. I originally started that to differentiate the text. It had nothing to do with emotion. However, since my red text is causing more controversy, I guess I'll continue to use it. Lol.


----------



## Acorn

trey69 said:


> It seems AFEH gets to you worse than anyone here...what are you getting out of continuing to respond to him?


This is the million dollar question.

RJ - once you figured out that you can't stop your detractors from posting, but you can put up personal barriers to ignore those you don't want to hear from, you'll be so much happier. 

Applying it to your thread, you won't care when some subset of men do not behave the way you like - you will have learned to identify and simply not associate with the ones that bother you.


----------



## Scannerguard

Okay. . .I'll admit I am not following this thread. . .there seems to be a lot of fighting about generalizing (one complaint) and the charge of feminism (another complaint).

I think it's okay to generalize. The OP generalized and I think that's okay.

You can either make a fair generalization (and I think it was fair), or an unfair generalization.

I can then offer an explanation to the generalization (which I did). Generalizations get general explanations (feminism).

You can accept the theory or not.

I mean, what's another theory? A strange "Work ethic declination" gene entered the Y chromosome as a result of nuclear testing in the 1960's? Oprah? Alien abduction?

Why do *you* think the male work ethic has declined (or seemingly so)? (as a generalization)


----------



## R.J.

trey69 said:


> It seems AFEH gets to you worse than anyone here...what are you getting out of continuing to respond to him?


I'm not gaining anything out of responding to any of them actually. I suppose it's just part of my personality. I'm not one to stand for feeling bullied or attack without putting up a good fight. Some of these guys are trying to hit below the belt a bit and get personal too and I'm trying to ignore them and stay on topic. It's crazy. Lol, but it comes with the territory. 

I wanted to hear from men, and now I'm hearing from them. Sounds like many of them are whining though. Lol. 

However, some of them have really provided some good insight. I do appreciate it.


----------



## R.J.

Acorn said:


> This is the million dollar question.
> 
> RJ - once you figured out that you can't stop your detractors from posting, but you can put up personal barriers to ignore those you don't want to hear from, you'll be so much happier.
> 
> Applying it to your thread, you won't care when some subset of men do not behave the way you like - you will have learned to identify and simply not associate with the ones that bother you.


:scratchhead::smthumbup:


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> AFEH, just when I was beginning to gain a more positive perception of you and your views, you went ahead and reverted back to the immaturity.
> 
> I realize that you're just trying to push my buttons but you can stop now. I realize that this is an open discussion and everyone has right to their opinion, thoughts, or comments (even if I feel attacked by them). I feel I've been too defensive on here and not focusing on the topic. I've allowed you and others to steer me away from my questions, while those such as Callalily, have tried to provide their input.
> 
> So please, go and take care of your wife and your 39 year old son and allow the adults to have a mature conversation.


I do not give an F about your perception of Me or any Man.


----------



## Mistys dad

Yep, I followed this thread. 

I don't normally posty in the Ladies Lounge because I figure that it is more for women talking to women. But, the thread title caught my eye.

I honestly tried to answer your question, and you quickly bullet pointed in red and twisted everything I said. (post 31)

You accused one person of being a dead beat husband. Then accuse people of hitting you below the belt.

Your answers have become more angry, more insulting, more condescending. The passive-aggressive quips ( I thought you were one of the better ones on here, but I suppose not) you throw out so often are just more anger projected outward.

You have raised the hostility level while many other have tried calmly to give you the opinions you said you wanted.

The truth is you don't want an answer to your original question. You just want confrontation.


----------



## Enchantment

R.J. said:


> Come on guys. What's going on with you? At first I thought it was just my situation but the more threads I read on TAM, the more I'm realizing that there are so many men whom are comfortable allowing their wives to take care of the household while they do the bear minimum to make the marriage work. There are so many men who don't work at all or are working but hardly contributing financially (and in most cases by choice). Also, I've encountered many situations where not only doesn't the husband hardly pay any bills, but he also doesn't lift a finger around the house to make up for his lack in financial support.


I think someone else may have mentioned this. But TAM is a special interest group, so it's not necessarily indicative of what goes on in the more general world.

For instance, I've also seen quite a number of posts from men who have wives who are SAHM who have no compunction about doing little to keep the house up and organized while they are home.



R.J. said:


> What is becoming of our men today? Why are more and more men accepting their wives to be breadwinner and home maker while they sit and reap the benefits? Why does it seem as if many men no longer have pride or back bone? I remember when a man refused to accept money from his wife because he was short. He would work 2 jobs before he had his wife taking over his role in the household. Nowadays, it seems as if more men are content with being "slave masters." They sit on their tails and give out orders while their wives does it all. AND to top it off, have an audacity to complain about his "lacking" sex life when she's too resentful and or tired to give out.


I guess I am not sure whether there is actually 'more and more' men acting like this or not. I'm not sure how we can tell that or not, or if it's just conjecture and anecdote.

For instance, over the holidays I did a bunch of reading on American pioneers. One of the books I read was called "Pioneer Women...The Lives of Women on the Frontier". In the section on marriage and divorce, there was a lot of discussion on 'idle' husbands and the difficulties women had in obtaining a divorce.

One husband wrote to his wife the following, and then wondered why she wanted to leave: "_I want someone to get me a good supper and let me take my ease and when I am very tired in the morning I want someone to get up and get breakfast and let me lay in bed and take my rest. More than all I want my wife where I can have her company and to cheer me up when the blue devils chain me down_."

After reading some of those books on what pioneer women went through, it made me think that there's always been and is always going to be an element, man or woman, that are slothful, lazy, inconsiderate, and idle.

Whether we have more idle men now or not, I don't know. I think, in general, that our society, both men and women, are more flighty, more apathetic about really working hard for things, and feel more entitled to have things given to them without putting in the work.

I do know that we can all try our best in raising our sons to the best of our abilities to be strong, productive, and considerate. I do know that we can try our best in being appreciative and helpful of our husbands so that they can also be strong, productive, and considerate.


----------



## Scannerguard

Also, I just tried to open up to indicate why perhaps my work ethic isn't on "maximum overdrive" and I felt attacked (no biggie).

Again, I am not sure what all the complaining is about.

BTW, it's all relative. A lot of the women I date say I work TOO hard. . .my ex-wife complained like you about me (men) - I was lazy.

In fact, she told my middle son that as to why we divorced (during a moment he broke down to me about it).

I actually think in a way, it's a little of both.

I can own both (peculiar dichotomy about me - I DO have a lazy streak in me).

I guess if you are complaining that under the FEMINIST MANIFESTO, it was the goal to create the SUPERWOMAN AND THE SUPERMAN, where the man comes home from work, and cooks, cleans, food shops, runs kids to doctors, and does all the traditional (or formerly traditional - seems funny saying that) work that a housewife did and the modern male feels GOOD about that, well, the feminist manifesto failed.

Well, it did succeed in creating "SUPERWOMAN". . .but didn't succeed in creating "SUPERMAN."

I have no desire to be SUPERMAN and I don't think men do.

Men just want to work.

Sorry they didn't get on with the Manifesto.

We didn't get the memo, I guess.


----------



## Yardman

Mistys dad said:


> Yep, I followed this thread.
> 
> I don't normally posty in the Ladies Lounge because I figure that it is more for women talking to women. But, the thread title caught my eye.
> 
> I honestly tried to answer your question, and you quickly bullet pointed in red and twisted everything I said. (post 31)
> 
> You accused one person of being a dead beat husband. Then accuse people of hitting you below the belt.
> 
> Your answers have become more angry, more insulting, more condescending. The passive-aggressive quips ( I thought you were one of the better ones on here, but I suppose not) you throw out so often are just more anger projected outward.
> 
> You have raised the hostility level while many other have tried calmly to give you the opinions you said you wanted.
> 
> The truth is you don't want an answer to your original question. You just want confrontation.


:iagree:


----------



## R.J.

@Enchantment, I have also encountered many men who have so many problems with their wives and they truly care to make things better. That definitely raised my eyebrows because I can't recall ever witnessing a man expressing such concern and care regarding his marriage. I guess I've seen so many times (in my relationship and others) that men don't really express their hurt and concern about their marriages. It really never hit me that a man can really worry about his wife's happiness, so to read those types of posts have been very educating for me.

However, I won't deny that women have their flaws as well. After being on TAM, I realize that many men are hurting just as women because of the downfalls in their marriages. Nonetheless, I wanted a discussion specifically about a man's perspective regarding the lacking man. Some say that men don't really provide because in some cases they weren't brought up to, while others believe that women enable the man to be unsupportive. Several believe that you can't change a lacking man and the woman should simply leave. A few have blamed it on the movement of feminism, subliminal messages embedded during youth, etc. I love the different perspectives. Again, I can't stress enough the different views and understanding that I'm getting from everyone.


----------



## R.J.

Scannerguard said:


> Also, I just tried to open up to indicate why perhaps my work ethic isn't on "maximum overdrive" and I felt attacked (no biggie).
> 
> Again, I am not sure what all the complaining is about.
> 
> BTW, it's all relative. A lot of the women I date say I work TOO hard. . .my ex-wife complained like you about me (men) - I was lazy.
> 
> In fact, she told my middle son that as to why we divorced (during a moment he broke down to me about it).
> 
> I actually think in a way, it's a little of both.
> 
> I can own both (peculiar dichotomy about me - I DO have a lazy streak in me).
> 
> I guess if you are complaining that under the FEMINIST MANIFESTO, it was the goal to create the SUPERWOMAN AND THE SUPERMAN, where the man comes home from work, and cooks, cleans, food shops, runs kids to doctors, and does all the traditional (or formerly traditional - seems funny saying that) work that a housewife did and the modern male feels GOOD about that, well, the feminist manifesto failed.
> 
> Well, it did succeed in creating "SUPERWOMAN". . .but didn't succeed in creating "SUPERMAN."
> 
> I have no desire to be SUPERMAN and I don't think men do.
> 
> Men just want to work.
> 
> Sorry they didn't get on with the Manifesto.
> 
> We didn't get the memo, I guess.


@Scannerguard, if you feel as if you simply want to work and not contribute in any other way then that's fine. That's how you feel, but why do you feel that way? Why wouldn't you want to help in every aspect to smoothly manage the family, especially if your wife worked too? Do you think it's fair that you'd only play a portion of the role in the home when the wife was doing so much more? 

I guess I'm just wondering why wouldn't a husband (with your way of thinking) not realize how stressful and exhausting it must be for the wife to not only work, but also be the home maker as well. Is it that you really don't get it or simply don't care???


----------



## Lon

Mistys dad said:


> Yep, I followed this thread.
> 
> I don't normally posty in the Ladies Lounge because I figure that it is more for women talking to women. But, the thread title caught my eye.
> 
> I honestly tried to answer your question, and you quickly bullet pointed in red and twisted everything I said. (post 31)
> 
> You accused one person of being a dead beat husband. Then accuse people of hitting you below the belt.
> 
> Your answers have become more angry, more insulting, more condescending. The passive-aggressive quips ( I thought you were one of the better ones on here, but I suppose not) you throw out so often are just more anger projected outward.
> 
> You have raised the hostility level while many other have tried calmly to give you the opinions you said you wanted.
> 
> The truth is you don't want an answer to your original question. You just want confrontation.


:iagree: too

I had an answer typed out but realize that I feel exactly as Misty's Dad on this thread.

Even I in my earlier post tried to provide an usefull answer yet still feel like my reply got grouped in among RJ's summarization of what she thinks is jaded useless men.

There is nothing wrong with generalizations as long as you keep that at the high level and do your part to make sure it is representative of reality. All men are certainly not lazy beyond hope, nor are most, its a few bad apples that have tainted RJ's entire perspective of a man's role in a relationship. If you can't accept the reality that men are just doing what they have evolved, or been designed, to do then you are really not open to the answer you seek.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> I wanted to hear from men, and now I'm hearing from them. Sounds like many of them are whining though. Lol.
> 
> However, some of them have really provided some good insight. I do appreciate it.


R.J. - I think that many of the responses from men have been well-meaning and thoughtful, but it seems that you might be interpreting them as whining. That choice of words is telling. You are calling the people who disagree with you immature. After all, children whine and adults talk. I think it is that tone that is attracting the attention you don't want.


----------



## R.J.

Lon said:


> : If you can't accept the reality that men are just doing what they have evolved, or been designed, to do then you are really not open to the answer you seek.


I don't know why you are saying that I've suggested in anyway that all men are lazy. My thread is about "men whom don't contribute in their households." Therefore, do you truly believe that "men are just doing what they have evolved, or been designed, to do " by not supporting their wives?


----------



## mr.miketastic

Quote:Originally Posted by R.J. View Post

I wanted to hear from men, and now I'm hearing from them. Sounds like many of them are whining though. Lol. 


Passive-aggressive behavior is abusive, whether it be a man or a woman.
Perhaps you act this way with your husband as well?


----------



## R.J.

I just want to say that originally I was getting angry because I felt as if I were being attacked because of the title of my thread, accusations of being a feminist, etc. I couldn't understand why folks were making this topic about me at all. It wasn't and isn't about me. It's about the men who don't provide. 

Some of you have even suggested that I'm not open to disagreement. If you're disagreeing on the topic, then yes I want to hear you because perhaps you can help me understand something that I just don't see. However, if you're accusing me of putting ALL men into one category, saying that I believe I'm a victim, and all the other ridiculous comments that I've encountered on here then no, I truly can care less about what you have to say.

I'd be so grateful if we can get off of this "R.J. had an attitude bit." It's old. Let's get back on focus of the discussion. If anyone make any more personal posts about how they perceived the tone of some of my previous posts, I won't respond to you. I will only focus on those who have legitimate opinions about the topic at hand.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> My thread is about "men whom don't contribute in their households."


I have these reasons (which apply equally to women):

1. Lazy by nature and living with an enabler.
2. Suffering from depression
3. Passive/aggressive personality and living with an enabler.


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> I just want to say that originally I was getting angry because I felt as if I were being attacked because of the title of my thread, accusations of being a feminist, etc. I couldn't understand why folks were making this topic about me at all. It wasn't and isn't about me. It's about the men who don't provide.
> 
> Some of you have even suggested that I'm not open to disagreement. If you're disagreeing on the topic, then yes I want to hear you because perhaps you can help me understand something that I just don't see. However, if you're accusing me of putting ALL men into one category, saying that I believe I'm a victim, and all the other ridiculous comments that I've encountered on here then no, I truly can care less about what you have to say.
> 
> I'd be so grateful if we can get off of this "R.J. had an attitude bit." It's old. Let's get back on focus of the discussion. If anyone make any more personal posts about how they perceived the tone of some of my previous posts, I won't respond to you. I will only focus on those who have legitimate opinions about the topic at hand.


Ok, so what was the topic at hand agian?


----------



## Yardman

R.J. said:


> Some say that men don't really provide because in some cases they weren't brought up to, while others believe that women enable the man to be unsupportive. Several believe that you can't change a lacking man and the woman should simply leave. A few have blamed it on the movement of feminism, subliminal messages embedded during youth, etc. I love the different perspectives. Again, I can't stress enough the different views and understanding that I'm getting from everyone.


Depression and mental illness may also be a cause. Another possibility is that He feels nothing He does is good enough to please his spouse and just gives up altogether.


----------



## R.J.

VermisciousKnid said:


> R.J. - I think that many of the responses from men have been well-meaning and thoughtful, but it seems that you might be interpreting them as whining. That choice of words is telling. You are calling the people who disagree with you immature. After all, children whine and adults talk. I think it is that tone that is attracting the attention you don't want.


When I use the term "whining" I'm referring to those who are creating different topics other than the main topic. I mean those who refuse to simply give their opinions on the questions regarding "the men who don't provide" and not worry about the title of my thread, accusing me of generalizing all men, etc. 

I said in a previous thread the I deliberately created the title because I wanted to capture the attention of men. I wanted them to read the post and tell me what they thought (specifically about the main focus "non providing men.") I've re-read my original post and I still don't understand why so many men are accusing me of generalizing. I was careful to use words such as some, many, several, etc. I know I NEVER used the word "all" and if I even used the word "most" I didn't mean to. 

I just want to know why some men are content with not providing for their families


----------



## Scannerguard

> @Scannerguard, if you feel as if you simply want to work and not contribute in any other way then that's fine. That's how you feel, but why do you feel that way? Why wouldn't you want to help in every aspect to smoothly manage the family, especially if your wife worked too? Do you think it's fair that you'd only play a portion of the role in the home when the wife was doing so much more?
> 
> I guess I'm just wondering why wouldn't a husband (with your way of thinking) not realize how stressful and exhausting it must be for the wife to not only work, but also be the home maker as well. Is it that you really don't get it or simply don't care???


Ahhh. . .now we are having a conversation.

Well, first of all, I do think I did help/contribute. I did do all of that. I food shopped, laundry, mopped, cleaned, child cared, paid bills, and ran kids to sports (and oh the sports they did). I don't think it was up to her standard. . .the house and the way I cleaned it for instance. The meals, etc.

Maybe part of the reason the marriage broke down is she felt I was unhappy with that arrangement too? I guess I never envisioned doing so much "Mr. Dad" kind of stuff.

It probably DID show through in my attitude.

I mean, I think, when I left abruptly, she must have felt a sharp, painful loss in a pair of hands that I was. She probably thought, "Oh crap, he did do a lot." I know her parents were pissed, who had to step in and pick up the slack. The woman I am dating, who complained like you, said the same thing when her husband and her separated and then realized, oh yeah, he did do a lot.

I would just ask you to take pause the next time you drive by a house that looks run down on teh outside.

Think about the $20 in your pocket that I have that says on old widow owns the place. You can always tell. It's a museum inside. The outside looks like a shack.

Anyway, I digress. . .I am not saying you are a feminist.

I am saying the movement in the 60's and 70's may explain the decline, that's all. Generally speaking that is.

I am not sure why you are having a hard time accepting that or at least knocking it around on the table, unless you have some personal bias for it.

You haven' offered an alternative explanation. Do you have one? I'd be interested.


----------



## CallaLily

R.J. said:


> I just want to know why some men are content with not providing for their families


*Lazy
*Would rather have a mother figure than a wife.
*They live with an enabler, therefore they do not know how or even care to learn to do certain things.
*Depression and/or mental illness
*Poor role model(s) in childhood
*Resentments (checked out of the marriage and simply no longer care to put forth any effort.) 

Just a few that some already mentioned, and I echoed and added a few too.


----------



## R.J.

I keep encountering the possibility of depression. Hmmm…I don't know what to take of that. I remember a guy from a different forum suggested that some men tend to feel defeated by their woman's success and simply gives up. He went on to say that the woman takes charge and does it all, leaving the man feeling helpless and needless. I've also read a few posts in this thread suggesting something similar. Can this be one of the symptoms of "depression?"


----------



## OOE

R.J. said:


> I will only focus on those who have legitimate opinions about the topic at hand.


OK, I'll give it a shot.

Often *a* husband loses his manhood a small piece at a time - especially if his wife has a stronger personality and has a tendency towards controlling behaviors.

If anytime there's a disagreement, she's never wrong -- no matter the facts -- eventually he stops communicating.

If his actions are never good enough (or never enough), eventually he stops trying.

If his wife starts earning more than him and begins putting him down due to his inability to make more than she does, it's easy to give up on this as well.

If the wife is continually telling the husband that he's a loser, through words and actions, he'll prove her right.

If the wife tells the husband that the idea of sex with him makes her want to vomit, she's likely just killed whatever remaining testosterone he has in his veins.

Eventually the husband can become a beaten-down non-person who doesn't contribute. That, of course, is a HUGE problem for the wife who can do no wrong.

Just one possible scenario to answer your OP.


----------



## Bottled Up

I think what it comes down to is that in both genders there are those who lack respect and understanding for the other gender. And too often they don't empathize enough to care either.

Being a guy, I do agree in that most men don't "want" to do the household chores that have traditionally been held by women, but part of making a marriage/family work (especially these days) means sacrifice. 

If you're the type of guy that's not going to chip in and help out around the house while your woman is working both a career and handling everything around the house, then you shouldn't get married and have kids at all. Just date for the rest of your life and break it off to move on to the next woman when the one you're with wants a commitment from you.


----------



## abandonedcompletely

Bottled Up said:


> I think what it comes down to is that in both genders there are those who lack respect and understanding for the other gender. And too often they don't empathize enough to care either.
> 
> Being a guy, I do agree in that most men don't "want" to do the household chores that have traditionally been held by women, but part of making a marriage/family work (especially these days) means sacrifice.
> 
> If you're the type of guy that's not going to chip in and help out around the house while your woman is working both a career and handling everything around the house, then you shouldn't get married and have kids at all. Just date for the rest of your life and break it off to move on to the next woman when the one you're with wants a commitment from you.


Very well said! Bottled Up, I also like your other post in this thread. It's very refreshing to hear a man think like that


----------



## Scannerguard

Holy PsychoBabble, Batman!



> OK, I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Often a husband loses his manhood a small piece at a time - especially if his wife has a stronger personality and has a tendency towards controlling behaviors.
> 
> If anytime there's a disagreement, she's never wrong -- no matter the facts -- eventually he stops communicating.
> 
> If his actions are never good enough (or never enough), eventually he stops trying.
> 
> If his wife starts earning more than him and begins putting him down due to his inability to make more than she does, it's easy to give up on this as well.
> 
> If the wife is continually telling the husband that he's a loser, through words and actions, he'll prove her right.
> 
> If the wife tells the husband that the idea of sex with him makes her want to vomit, she's likely just killed whatever remaining testosterone he has in his veins.
> 
> Eventually the husband can become a beaten-down non-person who doesn't contribute. That, of course, is a HUGE problem for the wife who can do no wrong.
> 
> Just one possible scenario to answer your OP.


That was pretty on with me. . .yes, I can own some depression entered my marriage, with me.

Now that I am divorced, I am happy, working, providing (well, having a hard time providing for 1.33 households with child support but nonetheless, struggling and working 2 jobs), but mostly, thank you for reminding what it's like to be with the Modern, Spoiled, American Woman nowadays.


----------



## akira1

I've seen no better article than this: (sorry if this was posted already)

The Futurist: The Misandry Bubble


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> When I use the term "whining" I'm referring to those who are creating different topics other than the main topic. I mean those who refuse to simply give their opinions on the questions regarding "the men who don't provide" and not worry about the title of my thread, accusing me of generalizing all men, etc.
> 
> I said in a previous thread the I deliberately created the title because I wanted to capture the attention of men. I wanted them to read the post and tell me what they thought (specifically about the main focus "non providing men.") I've re-read my original post and I still don't understand why so many men are accusing me of generalizing. I was careful to use words such as some, many, several, etc. I know I NEVER used the word "all" and if I even used the word "most" I didn't mean to.
> 
> I just want to know why some men are content with not providing for their families


Well, "whining" is pejorative, while "deflecting" or "obfuscating" are not. Just saying...

The title you chose contains a big and bad generalization and it has overshadowed your clarifications. How could it not? It sits at the top of each message while the clarifications recede with each new message.

I now understand what you are driving at, I think, but it was far from clear at first.


----------



## uphillbattle

"Come on guys. What's going on with you?"

That was the first line of your first post. First impressions are quite important. The first thing any man who pulls his weight does when he sees that is goes on the defensive.

"Good for you. You're one of the few."

That was post number 52. While claiming you where not generalizing in one breath, you would say things like this. I did eventualy get the point and attempted to provide awnsers to your intended questions but by that point it just became a match of people seeing who could piss the other off more (yes, you included). 
One thing you will learn on this site is that many people are verry passionate about things that they can relate too (obviously yourself, and myslef included if you see the first post I made responding to you). Many people get stuck on one phrase or sentance and apply it to everything you say, and in doing so it drowns out the orginal intent of what you are saying. If you don't wish to have the fire brought your way then you should probibly leave out lines such as the ones I mentioned.


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> I keep encountering the possibility of depression. Hmmm…I don't know what to take of that. I remember a guy from a different forum suggested that some men tend to feel defeated by their woman's success and simply gives up. He went on to say that the woman takes charge and does it all, leaving the man feeling helpless and needless. I've also read a few posts in this thread suggesting something similar. Can this be one of the symptoms of "depression?"


With your story, depression does come to mind pretty quickly. The problem with that theory is the fact that he is still bugging you for sex. Those who suffer from depression 99 out of 100 times take a massive hit to the sex drive. I would think more in the direction of him just being lazy.


----------



## AgentD

R.J. said:


> I just want to know why some men are content with not providing for their families



Hard to say "when" or "why" for that matter. Were they like this when they first got married maybe, or did they just decide to stop providing/being there for the families at some point in the marriage? 

If they were always like this, then perhaps it was a learned trait. Or if they were not like this in the beginning but then became that way over time, then maybe something contributed to them pulling back and not providing so much. Maybe they simply are no longer interested in the marriage. That could be a number or reasons why that might be, depends on the situation I suppose.


----------



## R.J.

Scannerguard said:


> Ahhh. . .now we are having a conversation.
> 
> Well, first of all, I do think I did help/contribute. I did do all of that. I food shopped, laundry, mopped, cleaned, child cared, paid bills, and ran kids to sports (and oh the sports they did). I don't think it was up to her standard. . .the house and the way I cleaned it for instance. The meals, etc.
> 
> Maybe part of the reason the marriage broke down is she felt I was unhappy with that arrangement too? I guess I never envisioned doing so much "Mr. Dad" kind of stuff.
> 
> It probably DID show through in my attitude.
> 
> I mean, I think, when I left abruptly, she must have felt a sharp, painful loss in a pair of hands that I was. She probably thought, "Oh crap, he did do a lot." I know her parents were pissed, who had to step in and pick up the slack. The woman I am dating, who complained like you, said the same thing when her husband and her separated and then realized, oh yeah, he did do a lot.
> 
> I would just ask you to take pause the next time you drive by a house that looks run down on teh outside.
> 
> Think about the $20 in your pocket that I have that says on old widow owns the place. You can always tell. It's a museum inside. The outside looks like a shack.
> 
> Anyway, I digress. . .I am not saying you are a feminist.
> 
> I am saying the movement in the 60's and 70's may explain the decline, that's all. Generally speaking that is.
> 
> I am not sure why you are having a hard time accepting that or at least knocking it around on the table, unless you have some personal bias for it.
> 
> You haven' offered an alternative explanation. Do you have one? I'd be interested.


@Scannerguard, I think environment plays a huge role in a man's attitude toward marriage and his responsibilities in a marriage. If a man is in an environment or surrounded by other men who share his lacking attitude, then he may think his beliefs are valid. However, if he's around men whom work hard and do all they can to try to make life easier for the family, then he may question his attitude and wonder if he's doing enough. 

I also think that upbringing plays a significant role in a man's ideals of his responsibilities as a husband. If a man is raised in a broken home, no structure, and he hasn't had anyone to step in and show him how to take care of a family then how will he know?

In my situation, I'm not really sure what my husband's deal is. His father was around (until their parents divorced) and was a very hard working man. His mom didn't work and the father was the sole provider. I don't know where things went wrong in my personal situation. I really paid close attention to those who said wives have enabled their husbands. However, I still don't know what I was suppose to do differently if he simply refused to step up. So now I'm trying to understand if "depression" may play a role in a man's unwillingness to provide.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

Bottled Up said:


> I think what it comes down to is that in both genders there are those who lack respect and understanding for the other gender. And too often they don't empathize enough to care either.
> 
> Being a guy, I do agree in that most men don't "want" to do the household chores that have traditionally been held by women, but part of making a marriage/family work (especially these days) means sacrifice.
> 
> If you're the type of guy that's not going to chip in and help out around the house while your woman is working both a career and handling everything around the house, then you shouldn't get married and have kids at all. Just date for the rest of your life and break it off to move on to the next woman when the one you're with wants a commitment from you.


:iagree::iagree:

I'll add that a good number of women don't want to do the household chores either, and a good number of men are starting to regard the household stuff as non-gender specific. It's not like most men think of those things as beneath them or "women's work" anymore. That applies to the American men I know. Other cultures are different. I live in a community with a large Portuguese population that is clinging to the old gender roles pretty resolutely. The women are supposed to serve the men. Many of the men don't help out with cooking or cleaning much. The compliant women are harder to find, though, so the approach that some men take is to visit the old country to find a more 'traditional' wife.


----------



## FirstYearDown

uphillbattle said:


> "Come on guys. What's going on with you?"
> 
> *That was the first line of your first post. First impressions are quite important. The first thing any man who pulls his weight does when he sees that is goes on the defensive.*
> 
> "Good for you. You're one of the few."
> 
> That was post number 52. While claiming you where not generalizing in one breath, you would say things like this. I did eventualy get the point and attempted to provide awnsers to your intended questions but by that point it just became a match of people seeing who could piss the other off more (yes, you included).
> One thing you will learn on this site is that many people are verry passionate about things that they can relate too (obviously yourself, and myslef included if you see the first post I made responding to you). Many people get stuck on one phrase or sentance and apply it to everything you say, and in doing so it drowns out the orginal intent of what you are saying. *If you don't wish to have the fire brought your way then you should probibly leave out lines such as the ones I mentioned*.


:iagree::iagree:

One of my pet peeves is generalization. I always remind members that their experiences are not facts.

My husband is the main breadwinner, thank you very much! He is helping me pay for school, so that I can start a new career because the recession affected my industry. The man doesn't even want me to work while I am studying, so that I can concentrate on doing well and finishing quickly. My husband is a real man. 

One of the few? :rofl: Most men that I have known pull their weight financially. I only know one man that refuses to work and sponges off of his partner.


----------



## R.J.

@GREAT POINTS!!! I guess considering my personal situation I have nothing to say to this. I've been so hurt and beat up over the years by my husband and reading your comments hit too close to home. I think I can put a check mark on each and everyone of those points you've made. I guess he and I both are emotionally abusive towards one another.

So it sounds to me that if a man feels defeated, then there's no fixing him. He's simply broken until he enters a different situation. And if a woman is holding so much resentment that she can bearly stand, then there's no fixing her either. :scratchhead:

What about the men who aren't being emotionally abused and still don't step up?


----------



## R.J.

@Firstyeardown, read all the posts before you make any more comments. You're a bit too late in the discussion to come with your attacks.

I've been over that discussion too manytimes to go there again. 

I'm happy for you and your husband.


----------



## AgentD

R.J. said:


> What about the men who aren't being emotionally abused and still don't step up?


Maybe they need to get into some counseling. A professional that can help them learn coping, communication, and relationships skills.


----------



## uphillbattle

akira1 said:


> I've seen no better article than this: (sorry if this was posted already)
> 
> The Futurist: The Misandry Bubble


Wow, for every one line of fact you have 2 lines of bull**** and 1 line of carefuly misplaced passed over fact. I wish I could be this good at propaganda. 
Not that I disagree with everything the writer says (I tend to lean a bit on the conservative side) but damn, an ounce of objectivity would be nice.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> So now I'm trying to understand if "depression" may play a role in a man's unwillingness to provide.


There's depression and Depression. Chronic depression can be quite debilitating. That could definitely play a part.


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> What about the men who aren't being emotionally abused and still don't step up?


At some point you have to lend credience to the fact that some people are just lazy peices of ****.


----------



## OOE

R.J. said:


> So it sounds to me that if a man feels defeated, then there's no fixing him. He's simply broken until he enters a different situation.


Something has to change, that's for sure. The same is true with resentment. If there's apathy on one side and resentment on the other, the spiral will continue.

The only way to "fix" things is for one person to break the cycle. For the wife (in the case I laid out above), it's a matter of making an effort at building her husband back up. Find the little and big ways of showing him that he's respected, and he'll likely start doing more to earn more of that respect.

Hard? Yep. But I promise that it's easier than the alternative.


----------



## AgentD

uphillbattle said:


> At some point you have to lend credience to the fact that some people are just lazy peices of ****.


:iagree:

True. Not only are some just lazy at physical things, like jobs, or helping around the house, chores etc, but some are lazy when it comes to emotional stuff as well. Some people just can't be bothered to put in any kind of effort.


----------



## bubbly girl

It may be how some people are raised. If someone grew up with a deadbeat parent, it could go one of two ways. They'll be lazy deadbeats too or they'll have a stronger drive because they want a better life than what they had growing up for both themselves and their families.

My husband and his brother are two such cases. They grew up very poor. Their father was a deadbeat who never held a job, and their mother was forced to work several low paying jobs just to keep a roof over their heads. Food was scarce and they often went without heat. Both men vowed their kids would never grow up like that. My husband and his brother are both hard working men who have, when necessary, taken on second jobs to make ends meet. 

On the other hand, I have noticed a trend of people who grew up spoiled to be very entitled and less ambitious. Not all, just some, but that's the trend I see with adult aged kids never moving out of their parents house. They don't have to take care of anything, their parents do it all for them.

I don't know if your husband fits into either of these categories. I really don't have any personal experience with men like your husband. I grew up with a father who was a hard working, great provider who raised us to work for what we have and am married to a man who is also a hard working good provider. They've had other issues, but not being good providers weren't one of them! LOL

ETA: I guess I'm a very slow typer. Just saw after I posted that you mentioned your husband's upbringing.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> So it sounds to me that if a man feels defeated, then there's no fixing him. He's simply broken until he enters a different situation. And if a woman is holding so much resentment that she can bearly stand, then there's no fixing her either. :scratchhead:


Depends on what defeated him/her and whether he/she is willing to change. 

"Beware the geographical solution."

If you have psychological issues, a different venue will only change things for a while. The issues will resurface later.


----------



## Halien

When did men stop being men? Some have proposed feminism as the culprit. Others just society in general. Maybe even television. I often find that its easier to just accept the simplest solution. You see, when the aliens began swapping normal guys out for sissified doppelgangers...

Oh well... But I do know a guy named Ed who swears that he saw a UFO over McDonalds while he was waiting in the drive through line. He insists that he was barely stoned, too.

Honestly, its getting pretty popular to blame all of our woes on the people who don't pay their fair share in taxes. Can we blame them?

Regardless, there's not going to be any blameshifting in my camp. Really, the OP's husband didn't necessarily fail at being a man. He failed at being a married adult. That, to me, is the tradgedy.


----------



## R.J.

Halien said:


> When did men stop being men? Some have proposed feminism as the culprit. Others just society in general. Maybe even television. I often find that its easier to just accept the simplest solution. You see, when the aliens began swapping normal guys out for sissified doppelgangers...
> 
> Oh well... But I do know a guy named Ed who swears that he saw a UFO over McDonalds while he was waiting in the drive through line. He insists that he was barely stoned, too.
> 
> Honestly, its getting pretty popular to blame all of our woes on the people who don't pay their fair share in taxes. Can we blame them?
> 
> Regardless, there's not going to be any blameshifting in my camp. Really, the OP's husband didn't necessarily fail at being a man. He failed at being a married adult. That, to me, is the tradgedy.


LOVE IT!!! LOL.:smthumbup:


----------



## uphillbattle

Halien said:


> When did men stop being men? Some have proposed feminism as the culprit. Others just society in general. Maybe even television. I often find that its easier to just accept the simplest solution. You see, when the aliens began swapping normal guys out for sissified doppelgangers...
> 
> Oh well... But I do know a guy named Ed who swears that he saw a UFO over McDonalds while he was waiting in the drive through line. He insists that he was barely stoned, too.
> 
> Honestly, its getting pretty popular to blame all of our woes on the people who don't pay their fair share in taxes. Can we blame them?
> 
> Regardless, there's not going to be any blameshifting in my camp. Really, the OP's husband didn't necessarily fail at being a man. He failed at being a married adult. That, to me, is the tradgedy.


:smthumbup::rofl:funny as hell


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Halien said:


> When did men stop being men? Some have proposed feminism as the culprit. Others just society in general. Maybe even television. I often find that its easier to just accept the simplest solution. You see, when the aliens began swapping normal guys out for sissified doppelgangers...


It is interesting to note that Boy Scouts was founded in part to ensure that boys were properly taught to be men. Some at the time (1910 in the US) thought that men had stopped being men.


----------



## Halien

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is interesting to note that Boy Scouts was founded in part to ensure that boys were properly taught to be men. Some at the time (1910 in the US) thought that men had stopped being men.


I remember seeing an old article in a paper within my grandmother's barn from the late 1930's or so, which pointed to the same reasonings. The author stated that when a family's survival no longer depends upon the work of their own hands in planting, hunting, etc, just to stay alive, then the roles of men and women will no longer be relevant. In other words, we don't put a lot of work into survival anymore, like the people of the Roman empire of the latter days. It pointed to the need to redefine rolls. At the time, I didn't really understand the relevance, but it only stuck with me because the article was forecasting real problems.


----------



## chillymorn

men stopped being men when OMAMA became president.


----------



## Enginerd

RJ:

Your husband has basically given up and your trying to figure out why it happened. You're resentful from carrying a disproportionate amount of the financial and emotional load in your marriage. You're tired and upset that your life style has been impacted by your husband's lack of income. You get pissy when someone suggests you look inward for answers. You've pushed a few button's here (including mine) with your subject title and writing style yet you don't understand that you're actually asking a specific question about your marriage. Your anger and frustration comes across even when your responses are 100% appropriate. Its hard to miss. I'm going to suggest that you're currently so blinded by anger and resentment that you should not make any life altering decisions until you find a way to release the anger. Life is not fair. You can't change him. You can only change you.


----------



## FirstYearDown

R.J. said:


> @Firstyeardown, read all the posts before you make any more comments. You're a bit too late in the discussion to come with your attacks.
> 
> I've been over that discussion too manytimes to go there again.
> 
> I'm happy for you and your husband.


If you weren't so angry and defensive, you would realize that I did not attack you. I was merely stating that your situation is not necessarily the norm. During this entire thread, more than one member has noticed the chip on your shoulder. I'll bet you'll say that we are all incorrect or coming after you right? 

Perhaps your attitude contributes to the problems you have with your husband; the inability to acknowledge your part of the issues. It cannot be just about what one of you is doing wrong; it takes two.

When the recession hit in 2008, my husband went from making more than $80,000/yr to collecting 18,000/yr on unemployment benefits. He did not receive any severance, because the company he worked for went bankrupt. To make matters worse, this occured soon after my husband proposed. No matter where he looked, nobody would hire him for a year. This took a toll on our wedding dreams, as well as my husband's mental state. He became very depressed.

Even though I was sad and stressed, my husband and I bonded over this awful misfortune. I made love to him even more often, so that he could restore some of the lost pride. I kept a positive attitude and ignored people who told me to leave him, just because he didn't have nearly as much money as when we met.

It paid off in more ways than one. Our relationship was strengthened by the knowledge that we could handle financial difficulties. We learned that getting married was more important than the wedding, so we had something very intimate. There was also a sense of celebration when my husband found work in his field. Fast forward nearly two years later and he is once again making more than $80,000. My patience paid off.

I can certainly appreciate your frustration.


----------



## Scannerguard

RJ,

No, your husband had a good upbringing and a good model. . .and that's why I think there is an accurate generalization there. ( and I have always been one to generalize so I'm not calling foul). I am not sure why the forum thinks generalizations are so evil. Generalizations allow matters to be studied, trends noted, actions taken. It's not cool to just say, "Wow man. . .it's all relative man. . ." 

And remember, let's say for arguement's sake, 90% of men in 1950 had a good work ethic. If that has generally degraded to 70%, well then, most men still have a good work ethic but you are right to note a trend.

I am validating what you are saying.

I don't know. . .it's a complicated world for simple creatures like men. My father just went out and "gotta job." 

Even Stephen Covey has written the day and age of where you just sell your labor on a market is comign to a close for a pathway to success (and family provision).

I mean sure. . .most women SAY they don't care if their man works at 7-11. . .but I am not sure that proves true.

I think also, with divorce being more prevalent, men become less motivated to work when they are paying alimony/child support. When 15-35% of your income, AFTER TAXES, goes out to child support. . .well it's very tempting to just say, "F it". I don't fall into that trap of thinking, but I know a lot of men do (and I try to tell them not to fall into that trap).

Of coruse, thsi perhaps explains a decline outside of marriage, rather than inside, which is your main complaint, I realize.


----------



## R.J.

You people can call me angry, say that I'm resentful because my marriage is hurting, suggest that my marriage is suffering because of my bad attitude, accuse me of being unwilling to recognize the issues within me, etc. I really don't give a damn to hear your opinions about me because this thread was never about ME!! It was about "men who don't provide for their families." If your husband provides for his family that's great, but that still doesn't mean that you don't have an opinion about men who don't provide for theirs. 

I'm angry because I'm annoyed that so many of you have made this about my husband and I. I'm not trying to get advice from any of you. I was simply trying to learn your perception of men who don't provide. NOT MY MAN WHO DOESN'T PROVIDE.

But it doesn't matter at this point. I enjoyed the discussion with those who did stay on topic.


----------



## Enchantment

Not trying to be provocative here, but going along with the general topic as you've defined it.

Why do you think a man has to provide for his family? I mean, how do you define provide?

If a man stays home and takes care of the primary household and childcare duties, i.e., a SAHD, is he not providing for his family?

I think that there may be many ways of 'providing' - from having a job and pulling in income (anywhere from all of it to a small part of it) to single-handedly raising his kids.

I think the thing that is a-changing is the fact that there is not a single model for being a provider anymore, and that apparently can cause problems for some.

For example, we have a man in my community who lost his wife last year at 40 to colon cancer. She just had their 4th child 8 weeks before. He now has 4 children 5 and under that he is taking care of - that he is providing for. In olden times, a man would have looked for another woman to marry pronto to take care of his children. Today, a man can legitimately look after them himself. Isn't he still a man? Wow - this guy in my community is an uber-man in my eyes.


----------



## Scannerguard

RJ,

It's a common debate tactic I have seen here. . .I call it the "psychoanalyze the question/comment" tactic, rather than discuss the issue at hand.

It's been used on me. . .only I know I'm nuts so I am not sure what they are gaining. 

Well, I hope I helped somewhat. . .BTW, not saying I was right. . .just saying why I think there has been a general trend downward in work ethic.

I hope your marriage gets to a better place.


----------



## R.J.

Enchantment said:


> Not trying to be provocative here, but going along with the general topic as you've defined it.
> 
> Why do you think a man has to provide for his family? I mean, how do you define provide?
> 
> If a man stays home and takes care of the primary household and childcare duties, i.e., a SAHD, is he not providing for his family?
> 
> I think that there may be many ways of 'providing' - from having a job and pulling in income (anywhere from all of it to a small part of it) to single-handedly raising his kids.
> 
> I think the thing that is a-changing is the fact that there is not a single model for being a provider anymore, and that apparently can cause problems for some.
> 
> For example, we have a man in my community who lost his wife last year at 40 to colon cancer. She just had their 4th child 8 weeks before. He now has 4 children 5 and under that he is taking care of - that he is providing for. In olden times, a man would have looked for another woman to marry pronto to take care of his children. Today, a man can legitimately look after them himself. Isn't he still a man? Wow - this guy in my community is an uber-man in my eyes.


I agree that the examples above reveal a man who supports the well being of his family. However, there are men who don't do any of the things you've listed above.

Some men don't work, cook, clean, help the children in any way, etc. I think some people are assuming when I say "provide for his family" that I mean in the traditional form where he's financially supporting the household, but I'm not speaking from only the traditional sense. I'm considering any form of support to the family.

I had a cousin who actually had an audacity to say that he needs at least 16 hours of sleep a day. His wife worked and took care of their home. It's sad. I know another guy who claimed to need "daddy time" (as he referred to it) when he was gone 90% of the day and sleep the other 10%. 

I just wondering what are these guys thinking. How do they even live with themselves maintaining their attitudes.


----------



## Jamison

R.J. said:


> I agree that the examples above reveal a man who supports the well being of his family. However, there are men who don't do any of the things you've listed above.
> 
> Some men don't work, cook, clean, help the children in any way, etc. I think some people are assuming when I say "provide for his family" that I mean in the traditional form where he's financially supporting the household, but I'm not speaking from only the traditional sense. I'm considering any form of support to the family.
> 
> I had a cousin who actually had an audacity to say that he needs at least 16 hours of sleep a day. His wife worked and took care of their home. It's sad. I know another guy who claimed to need "daddy time" (as he referred to it) when he was gone 90% of the day and sleep the other 10%.
> 
> I just wondering what are these guys thinking. How do they even live with themselves maintaining their attitudes.


They were/are likely spoiled and have entitlement issues. Possibly started at home when they were younger, and then they usually will seek out a mate who they feel will allow their behavior to continue. Just a thought.


----------



## EleGirl

Enchantment said:


> Not trying to be provocative here, but going along with the general topic as you've defined it.
> 
> Why do you think a man has to provide for his family? I mean, how do you define provide?
> 
> If a man stays home and takes care of the primary household and childcare duties, i.e., a SAHD, is he not providing for his family?
> 
> I think that there may be many ways of 'providing' - from having a job and pulling in income (anywhere from all of it to a small part of it) to single-handedly raising his kids.
> 
> I think the thing that is a-changing is the fact that there is not a single model for being a provider anymore, and that apparently can cause problems for some.
> 
> For example, we have a man in my community who lost his wife last year at 40 to colon cancer. She just had their 4th child 8 weeks before. He now has 4 children 5 and under that he is taking care of - that he is providing for. In olden times, a man would have looked for another woman to marry pronto to take care of his children. Today, a man can legitimately look after them himself. Isn't he still a man? Wow - this guy in my community is an uber-man in my eyes.


It seems that RJ is talking about men who do not provide financially or help around the house, or help with the children, etc.

Of course a SAHD who cares for the children, the home, etc is contributing to the family in a very important way.


----------



## EleGirl

Jamison said:


> They were/are likely spoiled and have entitlement issues. Possibly started at home when they were younger, and then they usually will seek out a mate who they feel will allow their behavior to continue. Just a thought.


My husband was the oldest of 4 kids. His father was in the military and walked out on them when he was 13. His mother worked to support her children. He took care of his siblings, cooked dinner, had a job after school, played football and had a 4.0 GPA in high school.

When he married his first wife she was a SAHM until the day she left when the youngest was 9... after 14 years of marriage. He worked full time plus overtime to support them, helped with the kids, the house, etc.

He married me in 2000, was laid off in 2002 and has not really worked since. He did nothing to help raise his two younger kids who he had custody of. He did nothing around the house... I mean nothing until very recently. And now he does only the amount that he thinks will keep me from kicking him out.. .it's not enough.

I have worked full them plus a lot of over time and taken care of everything for our family since 2000.

None of the things like being raised to be entitled fit here.


----------



## EleGirl

R.J. said:


> I agree that the examples above reveal a man who supports the well being of his family. However, there are men who don't do any of the things you've listed above.
> 
> Some men don't work, cook, clean, help the children in any way, etc. I think some people are assuming when I say "provide for his family" that I mean in the traditional form where he's financially supporting the household, but I'm not speaking from only the traditional sense. I'm considering any form of support to the family.
> 
> I had a cousin who actually had an audacity to say that he needs at least 16 hours of sleep a day. His wife worked and took care of their home. It's sad. I know another guy who claimed to need "daddy time" (as he referred to it) when he was gone 90% of the day and sleep the other 10%.
> 
> I just wondering what are these guys thinking. How do they even live with themselves maintaining their attitudes.


That's what I'm wondering as well.


----------



## uphillbattle

EleGirl said:


> That's what I'm wondering as well.


It's fairly simple, they think they can get away with it. They think this because they have gotten away with it. No differnt than a child who pushes their boundries until they find that threshold. Like it or not, many people are just ass holes just because they can be.


----------



## Jamison

EleGirl said:


> My husband was the oldest of 4 kids. His father was in the military and walked out on them when he was 13. His mother worked to support her children. He took care of his siblings, cooked dinner, had a job after school, played football and had a 4.0 GPA in high school.
> 
> When he married his first wife she was a SAHM until the day she left when the youngest was 9... after 14 years of marriage. He worked full time plus overtime to support them, helped with the kids, the house, etc.
> 
> He married me in 2000, was laid off in 2002 and has not really worked since. He did nothing to help raise his two younger kids who he had custody of. He did nothing around the house... I mean nothing until very recently. And now he does only the amount that he thinks will keep me from kicking him out.. .it's not enough.
> 
> I have worked full them plus a lot of over time and taken care of everything for our family since 2000.
> 
> None of the things like being raised to be entitled fit here.


Good for you. I was referring to what RJ had asked about what are some guys like this thinking. 

Yes, some men and women are spoiled. Yes some do have entitlement issues. Yes, some do not want to do anything like provide financially, help with the kids or chores etc. because they had someone to do it for them growing up, and yes, some people will seek out a mate to continue to do for them just what they had done by someone else growing up. That was what I was referring too, not your post.


----------



## Bottled Up

Scannerguard said:


> I think also, with divorce being more prevalent, men become less motivated to work when they are paying alimony/child support. When 15-35% of your income, AFTER TAXES, goes out to child support. . .well it's very tempting to just say, "F it".


This one always perplexes me, because don't those men realize that when they were married that at least 15-35% of their income was being spent on child expenses anyway??? The only thing that changes with divorce is that they actually see "the bill" now in what it costs to raise their children. Yes, there's some extreme scenarios of child support payments when you start looking at rich couples' divorces, but a majority of the divorces at the blue collar level are pretty on target for what you have to pay as a divorced parent without custody.

Also, considering all those men now have to do is pay and not do a majority of the duties anymore, then isn't that "the dream 1960's scenario" for a man you were arguing for earlier in this thread? No more having to do the "woman's duties" of raising the children, you can just work (and pay) now.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Bottled Up said:


> This one always perplexes me, because don't those men realize that when they were married that at least 15-35% of their income was being spent on child expenses anyway??? The only thing that changes with divorce is that they actually see "the bill" now in what it costs to raise their children. Yes, there's some extreme scenarios of child support payments when you start looking at rich couples' divorces, but a majority of the divorces at the blue collar level are pretty on target for what you have to pay as a divorced parent without custody.
> 
> Also, considering all those men now have to do is pay and not do a majority of the duties anymore, then isn't that "the dream 1960's scenario" for a man you were arguing for earlier in this thread? No more having to do the "woman's duties" of raising the children, you can just work (and pay) now.


But they are not getting the benefits. For example, my wife is a SAHM and among other things, she cooks dinner and does laundry. She doesn't just do this for the kids and herself, she does it for me as well. If we divorced, I would end up "paying for it", while still doing it for myself. Its not like the regular household chores that some consider as "woman's work" just go away. Plus, I would not get to see my kids regularly.

To be clear, I am not defending this mindset, just noting that the idea that such an arrangement is to the man's (or paying spouses) benefit is not that clear to me.


----------



## Scannerguard

Bottled Up,

I agree. . .no argument. I counsel men that the child support payment is the child support payment.

I was just saying. . .when you see 15-35% of your money "evaporate" into nothingness, it can have an effect on your work ethic.

It hasn't on mine. . .I really want to earn more, so I can pay more child support. . .but I do kind of understand the mindset, even if I discourage it.


----------



## Lon

R.J. said:


> Some men don't work, cook, clean, help the children in any way, etc. I think some people are assuming when I say "provide for his family" that I mean in the traditional form where he's financially supporting the household, but I'm not speaking from only the traditional sense. I'm considering any form of support to the family.


I honestly don't know any single man who contributes absolutely nothing. Now many may not contribute enough, or they think they are contributing but it is not in a way that is recognized by their spouse.

The only fictitious examples of men (well, boys) who contribute nothing I can think of is some loser who lives rent free in his mothers basement and plays video games all day that he purchased with allowance money, or perhaps some prince who literally has servants that dote on him around the clock (does this even exist anywhere?).

These males would be completely dependent on someone else, and so that requires another to be an enabler for them, someone willing to take care of all their basic and even higher needs with nothing in return. If a woman didn't want a H who is completely dependent on her I don't know why she would marry one, and I don't know why she would enable the situation by taking on the role of his caretaker.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scannerguard said:


> Bottled Up,
> 
> I agree. . .no argument. I counsel men that the child support payment is the child support payment.
> 
> I was just saying. . .when you see 15-35% of your money "evaporate" into nothingness, it can have an effect on your work ethic.
> 
> It hasn't on mine. . .I really want to earn more, so I can pay more child support. . .but I do kind of understand the mindset, even if I discourage it.


The "evaporation" of which you speak is to keep a roof over your children, food on the table, gas in the car, clothes on their backs, medicine in their bodies and hopefully a sports jersey on their person. If providing for their children is a chore, then perhaps their is a reason the marriage failed as that speaks volumes (to me) about a man's character. Not speaking to you Scanner, just the men in general that you mentioned. 

Also, when did this tread become about feminism? Women have prevented men from being men? Hogwash. It's a choice. A man behaves exactly as he wants.


----------



## R.J.

Lon said:


> If a woman didn't want a H who is completely dependent on her I don't know why she would marry one, and I don't know why she would enable the situation by taking on the role of his caretaker.


 Many women don't just marry into a situation where the man is obviously not supportive. Sometimes the dynamics of expectations and responsibilities change after marrying and the "enabler" (as so many of you have put it) has no choice but to deal with the results.

Let's take my situation for example. Considering the type of woman that I am, there's no way in he!! that I would've even dated my husband had I known he would turn out to be this way. I can't stand a man who lacks ambition, and relies on me for assistance. I hate feeling like I'm his welfare provider. 

I've challenged wives that have non-supportive husbands, being referred to as an enabler. To some degree I don't think that accusation is fair. Again, let's take my situation as an example. How do I disable his position as a non-supportive husband? Do I stop paying our bills and hope that he steps up? Do I refuse to the clean the house and live in filth until he decides to clean up? Well what if he doesn't pay the bills or clean up? Where does that leave me? This is why I don't understand the role of the enabler.

I understand that the wife can always leave the situation, but it's not always just that simple. Sometimes circumstances prevent them from just packing up and leaving, and I'm not referring to love or even the children. Sometimes the situation itself won't allow her to just go at that moment. So what do those women do?


----------



## R.J.

Bottled Up said:


> The only thing that changes with divorce is that they actually see "the bill" now in what it costs to raise their children. Yes, there's some extreme scenarios of child support payments when you start looking at rich couples' divorces, but a majority of the divorces at the blue collar level are pretty on target for what you have to pay as a divorced parent without custody.


I definitely don't want to get into the whole child support payment topic, but I DEFINITELY disagree with you that "...divorces at the blue collar level are pretty on target for what you have to pay as a divorced parent without custody." One thing that I can say is I do pity the men whom child support payments are so extreme that it makes them feel as if children can be a financial punishment. This is especially for the men whom want to be good fathers to their children by not only financially supporting them after a divorce, but also actively being a part of their lives. I've seen SOOO many cases where I must admit that the monthly support payments that have been set up by the courts are too extreme. In some cases I've even asked the fathers how do they survive. 

I believe the only time support payments are fair is when the spouse makes a really good amount of money and even then sometimes the payments are brutal.

I have a friend who's an engineer making good money. However, he and his wife divorced and he ended up having to pay so much in child support that he was no longer able to make his mortgage payments. He ended up selling his home and moving into a much smaller home just to make ends meet.

So again, I didn't mean to change the topic (especially since I've complained so much about others doing just that lol), but I had to say something about this.


----------



## AFEH

R.J. said:


> Many women don't just marry into a situation where the man is obviously not supportive. Sometimes the dynamics of expectations and responsibilities change after marrying and the "enabler" (as so many of you have put it) has no choice but to deal with the results.
> 
> Let's take my situation for example. Considering the type of woman that I am, there's no way in he!! that I would've even dated my husband had I known he would turn out to be this way. I can't stand a man who lacks ambition, and relies on me for assistance. I hate feeling like I'm his welfare provider.
> 
> I've challenged wives that have non-supportive husbands, being referred to as an enabler. To some degree I don't think that accusation is fair. Again, let's take my situation as an example. How do I disable his position as a non-supportive husband? Do I stop paying our bills and hope that he steps up? Do I refuse to the clean the house and live in filth until he decides to clean up? Well what if he doesn't pay the bills or clean up? Where does that leave me? This is why I don't understand the role of the enabler.
> 
> I understand that the wife can always leave the situation, but it's not always just that simple. Sometimes circumstances prevent them from just packing up and leaving, and I'm not referring to love or even the children. Sometimes the situation itself won't allow her to just go at that moment. *So what do those women do?*


Could you summarise the advice you’ve already been given, I’ve lost track.


----------



## uphillbattle

Bottled Up said:


> This one always perplexes me, because don't those men realize that when they were married that at least 15-35% of their income was being spent on child expenses anyway??? The only thing that changes with divorce is that they actually see "the bill" now in what it costs to raise their children. Yes, there's some extreme scenarios of child support payments when you start looking at rich couples' divorces, but a majority of the divorces at the blue collar level are pretty on target for what you have to pay as a divorced parent without custody.
> 
> Also, considering all those men now have to do is pay and not do a majority of the duties anymore, then isn't that "the dream 1960's scenario" for a man you were arguing for earlier in this thread? No more having to do the "woman's duties" of raising the children, you can just work (and pay) now.


**** this. I would give my right arm to stay at home with the kids. I work my ass off for 12 hours every day. There is no "dream" in working my fingers too the bone. You can say what you want but I have 5 kids and when I had an extended time off home taking care of the kids it was a dream. Was it easy, NO, but it was great not to miss my children all and not nearly as hard as what I do on a daily basis.


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> I understand that the wife can always leave the situation, but it's not always just that simple. Sometimes circumstances prevent them from just packing up and leaving, and I'm not referring to love or even the children. Sometimes the situation itself won't allow her to just go at that moment. So what do those women do?


Please, I would love to hear of some examples of this.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

R.J. said:


> I understand that the wife can always leave the situation, but it's not always just that simple. Sometimes circumstances prevent them from just packing up and leaving, and I'm not referring to love or even the children. Sometimes the situation itself won't allow her to just go at that moment. So what do those women do?


I see only these choices: Endure unhappily, accept, or try to force change of the spouse. Same approach for men and women. And by accept, I don't mean give a pass for bad behavior. I mean accept that the person is going to fall short of what we want in some areas. My W is terrible with housekeeping. She procrastinates until it gets bad, and then it is hard to get it all done. I do it in small bursts during the week so it never gets out of control. I suppose you could call that enabling, but you could also call it acceptance of her poor planning skills.

Of course, you can only do so much accepting and enduring, but you asked what you can do if you can't pick up and leave.

You can't put an electric collar on him and give him a shock when he's been bad. :rofl:


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

R.J. said:


> I have a friend who's an engineer making good money. However, he and his wife divorced and he ended up having to pay so much in child support that he was no longer able to make his mortgage payments. He ended up selling his home and moving into a much smaller home just to make ends meet.


And what exactly is unfair here?


----------



## Halien

R.J. said:


> I definitely don't want to get into the whole child support payment topic, but I DEFINITELY disagree with you that "...divorces at the blue collar level are pretty on target for what you have to pay as a divorced parent without custody." One thing that I can say is I do pity the men whom child support payments are so extreme that it makes them feel as if children can be a financial punishment. This is especially for the men whom want to be good fathers to their children by not only financially supporting them after a divorce, but also actively being a part of their lives. I've seen SOOO many cases where I must admit that the monthly support payments that have been set up by the courts are too extreme. In some cases I've even asked the fathers how do they survive.
> 
> I believe the only time support payments are fair is when the spouse makes a really good amount of money and even then sometimes the payments are brutal.
> 
> I have a friend who's an engineer making good money. However, he and his wife divorced and he ended up having to pay so much in child support that he was no longer able to make his mortgage payments. He ended up selling his home and moving into a much smaller home just to make ends meet.
> 
> So again, I didn't mean to change the topic (especially since I've complained so much about others doing just that lol), but I had to say something about this.


I take a different stance, but then again, my mother barely got anything from our father, so I definately spent plenty of time being hungry.

Most people these days really stretch their expectation for what they consider to be the minimum standards for housing and cars. I don't think the kids should have to pay for the parent's own expectations, if these expectations aren't financially sound. The point is, 35 years ago, a guy making $70k a year(by today's standards) would've probably had about a 1,500 sq ft home, and maybe even just one car. Two at the most. Neither would be very new. 

I guess my point is that downsizing isn't automatically a sign of being punished by the system.


----------



## R.J.

uphillbattle said:


> Please, I would love to hear of some examples of this.


I have a friend who's married and share an apartment with her husband. She's doing everything for them and he takes complete advantage of it. She's planning to leave, but at this exact moment she can't because they're tied to their lease and there are reasons why she can't just go. 1 being that she can't afford to pay rent at 2 places. If she were to lease another apartment, she'd have to continue paying rent at the current place until that lease is up because her husband can't afford to and the lease is in her name. As long as they're married, he is legally obligated to anything that she owns even though the place is in her name. Therefore, she can't force him to move out and if she just stopped paying the rent and get evicted it impacts her credit (not his). 2 if she packed up and left without having an official legal separation in tact, she can be accused of abandonment in court and increase the chances of having to pay alimony (due to not providing her spouse with "efficient" time to prepare for the separation) and risk losing everything that he's unwilling to give up (technically she "abandonned" her things to begin with). 3 she can't afford a lawyer because most lawyers in her township wants a minimum of $400+ for a consultation, and therefore, her only option is to do her own research to learn her rights as a wife. 

Basically with her financial situation and to prevent getting even more financially doomed and risk losing all of her property, she's planning to wait until their lease is up, file for a legal separation, and then go from there. Once the separation is in tact, he will no longer have rights to her property.

So this is a perfect example of when neither kids nor love plays a role in a reason a wife can't just pack up and go right then and there.


----------



## R.J.

Halien said:


> I take a different stance, but then again, my mother barely got anything from our father, so I definately spent plenty of time being hungry.
> 
> Most people these days really stretch their expectation for what they consider to be the minimum standards for housing and cars. I don't think the kids should have to pay for the parent's own expectations, if these expectations aren't financially sound. The point is, 35 years ago, a guy making $70k a year(by today's standards) would've probably had about a 1,500 sq ft home, and maybe even just one car. Two at the most. Neither would be very new.
> 
> I guess my point is that downsizing isn't automatically a sign of being punished by the system.


After reviewing my example, I realize that I didn't give enough background to my friend's situation in order for you to understand why I feel he was screwed. 

His exwife (wife at the time) was so unfair in their marriage. She did all in her power to make life a living hell for him. She'd take their daughter for weeks at a time without telling him where they were going or even answering his calls while they were away. He tried so many things to understand why she hated him so much. They went to counseling several times and even reached out to her family in order to get to the root of the problem. However, nothing worked and she grew even more resentful.

She started doing evil things like taking thousands of dollars from their joint account and hiding the money. She even deliberately charged up his credit card in an attempt to hurt him financially.

One day he just broke down to her and begged her to tell him why she hated him so much. He informed her that he still loved her so much and that he'd do anything to change her mind about him if only she'd just tell him why she was so resentful towards him. She only told him then that she'd never love him.

Well he begin to suspect she was having an affair and turns out she was. That's why her feelings became so ill towards him. She was no longer in love with him because her heart was with another man. However that still didn't explain why she wanted to destroy him financially.

Well LONGER story short, she eventually filed for divorce and took everything from him. She cleaned out their bank account, got half of the value of the house, tons of money in child support, and she still uses their daughter as a weapon to hurt him.

I personally think it isn't fair. He's so sad these days. She has definitely won. She has stripped my friend of his being. I don't think he knows who he is anymore.


----------



## SockPuppet

R.J. said:


> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


The family dynamic has changed. Many male dominated industries are becoming more and more automated. During war time a ballistic missile is much more cost effective than a troop of men.

Men are losing their place in the world, and dont know what to do.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

SockPuppet said:


> The family dynamic has changed. Many male dominated industries are becoming more and more automated. During war time a ballistic missile is much more cost effective than a troop of men.
> 
> Men are losing their place in the world, and dont know what to do.


Men are losing their place in the world? Um, they're still running it!  If men are losing, whose winning?


----------



## R.J.

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Men are losing their place in the world? Um, they're still running it!  If men are losing, whose winning?


:lol::rofl: lol.


----------



## SockPuppet

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Men are losing their place in the world? Um, they're still running it!  If men are losing, whose winning?


Traditional gender roles are down the toilets. Women are more-or-less equal to men.

Considering women can do the same things as men, this means that traditionally male dominated industries will now have a proportion of females employed, offsetting the same amount of males. IE. Men are losing their place in the world.

Traditionally men have been the breadwinners in families, but we know this isnt the case nowadays.

unfertilized eggs can be turned into semen, allowing lesbian couples to have real biological children.


Its tough to be a "Man" in a world that doesnt need men.

But yes, we do run the world. And its only because you have babies. This is how we even it out.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

R.J. said:


> :lol::rofl: lol.


Many of my closest friends are guys. I love them all and they are awesome so yes, I can rip on them accordingly. They are all white, most are upper middle class and in white collar careers. One in particular moans constantly about his "plight" in life. He didn't get to purchase the boat he wanted because they have a baby after years of failed IVF and later adopted as if he had no say in the matter. He made partner years after he should have because of a woman, not because he would cut out early to golf. He doesn't own the mansion he feels he deserves because his wife no longer works(she was a lawyer too).....he insisted that she quit and be a SAHM. 
Entitled is how I would describe him. I often wonder how he would deal if he ACTUALLY lost everything. 
Unless I missed something, what is preventing men from being men?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

SockPuppet said:


> Traditional gender roles are down the toilets. Women are more-or-less equal to men.
> 
> Considering women can do the same things as men, this means that traditionally male dominated industries will now have a proportion of females employed, offsetting the same amount of males. IE. Men are losing their place in the world.
> 
> Traditionally men have been the breadwinners in families, but we know this isnt the case nowadays.
> 
> unfertilized eggs can be turned into semen, allowing lesbian couples to have real biological children.
> 
> 
> Its tough to be a "Man" in a world that doesnt need men.
> 
> But yes, we do run the world. And its only because you have babies. This is how we even it out.


Traditionally we walked on all fours. Evolution is key to success as it is for all animals. Men are no longer breadwinners? They still earn more money for the same job performed. Men aren't needed? If they aren't needed then why are boys favored in place of girls in just about all 4 corners of the Earth? 
Men aren't losing anything. What they chose to give up is a different story.


----------



## EleGirl

VermisciousKnid said:


> I see only these choices: Endure unhappily, accept, or try to force change of the spouse. Same approach for men and women. And by accept, I don't mean give a pass for bad behavior. I mean accept that the person is going to fall short of what we want in some areas. My W is terrible with housekeeping. She procrastinates until it gets bad, and then it is hard to get it all done. I do it in small bursts during the week so it never gets out of control. I suppose you could call that enabling, but you could also call it acceptance of her poor planning skills.
> 
> Of course, you can only do so much accepting and enduring, but you asked what you can do if you can't pick up and leave.
> 
> You can't put an electric collar on him and give him a shock when he's been bad. :rofl:


I like the shock collar idea... maybe I'll try that next :rofl:

The fact is that some people will not respond no matter what their spouse does. So it comes down to a choice of just accepting them sitting there playing games all day or kicking them to the curb.


----------



## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Traditionally we walked on all fours. Evolution is key to success as it is for all animals. Men are no longer breadwinners? They still earn more money for the same job performed. Men aren't needed? If they aren't needed then why are boys favored in place of girls in just about all 4 corners of the Earth?
> Men aren't losing anything. What they chose to give up is a different story.


:iagree:


----------



## SockPuppet

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Traditionally we walked on all fours. Evolution is key to success as it is for all animals. Men are no longer breadwinners? They still earn more money for the same job performed. Men aren't needed? If they aren't needed then why are boys favored in place of girls in just about all 4 corners of the Earth?
> Men aren't losing anything. What they chose to give up is a different story.


moot.

What did we choose to give up?


----------



## EleGirl

SockPuppet said:


> Traditional gender roles are down the toilets. Women are more-or-less equal to men..


Lordy this must be hard on men... poor dears! Having women being more-or-less equal. Can you tell me why women should not be completely equal to men under the law?



SockPuppet said:


> Considering women can do the same things as men, this means that traditionally male dominated industries will now have a proportion of females employed, offsetting the same amount of males. IE. Men are losing their place in the world..


The fact is that women working in traditional male industries do not offset the same amount of men. There are simply more jobs now than there used to be. More engineers, more accountants, more doctors. By the way, there are more men in traditional women's industries too. There are for example a lot of male nurses now.
One thing that people keep forgetting is that women have always worked… when most people lived on farms, the women helped plant, bring in the crops and feed the livestock. It was only at the onset of the industrial revolution that there was a window in time when men worked and brought home the income and women were able to stay home and take care of the children and the house.

Society is changing again. There is no need for women to stay home to take care of children and house all their lives any more. Women live long lives, house work is much easier with our modern appliances, children are in school from about 6yrs old on. There is no reason for a woman be bored to death staying home all day. There is no reason for a woman to not have a well-paying career.
And let’s not forget that a large number of women, even in the past, were left at some time in their life.. if not their entire adult life to fend for themselves and to support their own children. If women are not equal to men under the law and in the work place that means that a woman without a man to support her is relegated to a life of poverty with her children. IN many countries even today, there are only two job possibilities for women.. housekeeper or prostitute. That’s it. Yea, let’s go back to that… .great idea.


SockPuppet said:


> Traditionally men have been the breadwinners in families, but we know this isnt the case nowadays..


You are right that this is not always the case today. Why is this bad? What’s great about today is that a couple can now decide for themselves what works for them. 
I really get a kick out of all this nonsense of men are the bread winners traditionally because I come from a long line of family that did not follow that model in the past.

My paternal grandmother, great grandmother and great-great grandmother were nurses. They earned a living throughout their adult lives, had children and were married to well-to-do-men. 

My maternal grandmother worked as a costume designer and seamstress at the metropolitan opera in NYC. My grandparents told me that the only way they made it through the great depression was that they both had jobs. When one of them lost a job, the other was able to get one. So by tag teaming supporting the family they made it through the great depression with their 5 daughters. Every one of my great-aunts worked. Even by great, great aunts in Italy worked in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.. they ran the family farms which, to this day export produce, wine and other farm products to northern European counties.
And among the pervious generations of my family, on both sides, all of the men worked. And none of them made a fuss about their wives, mothers, sisters working and brining in a good part of the family income.
Marriage is a team effort. I would think that a man would want his wife to have the ability to support herself and the children in case something happened to him.



SockPuppet said:


> unfertilized eggs can be turned into semen, allowing lesbian couples to have real biological children..


Got news for you… lesbians have no need for men. Just like gay men have no need for women. So I seen no loss here.


SockPuppet said:


> Its tough to be a "Man" in a world that doesnt need men.


What? The fact is that children need a mother and a father. So why you think men are not needed is beyond me.


SockPuppet said:


> But yes, we do run the world. And its only because you have babies. This is how we even it out.


So what is the word for a men’s movement that is equivalent to the feminist movement?


----------



## EleGirl

SockPuppet said:


> moot.
> 
> What did we choose to give up?


From your previous post you seem to think that men have given up somethings.. or lost somethings.. what are those things.


----------



## I Know

R.J. said:


> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


I get your point. I'd be frustrated too. I also get your husbands lack of motivation. I too have heard more men being long term unemployed for whatever reason. It is quite sad really. Nobody wins here. 

I tend to think it more of a reflection of the economy and the crappy nature of the work environment. Companies wring every bit of energy out of you that they can. Use you up, spit you out. So, I would blame economic woes rather than the idea that all of the sudden men are getting lazy. Who would be happy groveling for employment at a job that pays less than your old one? 

I have a great job on paper. Yet I am demoralized every day. If I got laid off, I have no idea what I would do. Nobody would hire me for 1/2 of what I make now. I'd be depressed like your H. 

Men are still men. Hope yours finds his bearings soon. Marriage requires everyone to do their part.


----------



## EleGirl

I Know said:


> I get your point. I'd be frustrated too. I also get your husbands lack of motivation. I too have heard more men being long term unemployed for whatever reason. It is quite sad really. Nobody wins here.
> 
> I tend to think it more of a reflection of the economy and the crappy nature of the work environment. Companies wring every bit of energy out of you that they can. Use you up, spit you out. So, I would blame economic woes rather than the idea that all of the sudden men are getting lazy. Who would be happy groveling for employment at a job that pays less than your old one?
> 
> I have a great job on paper. Yet I am demoralized every day. If I got laid off, I have no idea what I would do. Nobody would hire me for 1/2 of what I make now. I'd be depressed like your H.
> 
> Men are still men. Hope yours finds his bearings soon. Marriage requires everyone to do their part.


This does not explain why a man who is working part time or not working at all will not do anything around the house to help.

If I were unemployed I'd go out of my way to make life easier for my husband. Cleaning, cooking, yard work... etc. It's really not too much to expect that a man would do the same thing.


----------



## SockPuppet

I provided my answer to the OP's question. You either mis-read or misinterpreted it. Or maybe you didnt read it, and just cherry picked the parts you could contradict.:moon:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

SockPuppet said:


> moot.
> 
> What did we choose to give up?


You tell me. Many men seem happy blaming women for their shortcomings. Feminism, bread winning, etc., seems to be the meme around here as the cancer on men. How?


----------



## Debbie Roxs

After reading these posts it reminds me of the months I did missionary work in Mozambique Africa. The majority of the men we saw did not work. They sat around while their wives walked 5 miles to get water then cooked and took 100% care of their 5 kids. I am glad I live in America and have a husband who works.
I think for the sake of your marriage you might want to try counseling. Maybe he will learn that if he doesn't have a job it is expected of him to work around the house. He probably won't listen to you explain that to him. I hope the best for both of you.


----------



## AFEH

I’m just reading about the first World War. It’s an interesting era from the prospective of women not having the vote, the beginning of the suffragette movement in England etc. In the novel women have just won the vote, provided they’re over 30, own property or are married to a property owner.




Now getting back to lazy, bone idle husbands. Yes these men actually existed in the early 20th century in exactly the same way they exist in the early 21st century. And then just as now their wives not only worked in virtual paid slave conditions but also did everything in the home.

I just don’t see what the problem with understanding this is. Either a man is industrious, takes his responsibilities seriously and works hard to fulfil them. Or he is lazy and bone idle and he doesn’t take his responsibilities seriously and he doesn’t fulfil them. It really is that simple.


----------



## Mephisto

I have been watching this thread for the last few days, and see the misandry starting to creep in. I know I will be flamed for my views on this but I guess it'll be an interesting response, so here goes.

Let's not comment on the people who are bone idle, as there are just as many stories about women with entitlement issues as men....

On to the question at hand, Where did it all go wrong?

When the feminist movement began, men showed chivalry and gentlemanly conduct to women at all times, they tipped their hats and watched their language and did not expose women to the cruder side of the male persona. They went to war to protect the women and they were the first to go into any form of dangerous situation to protect the home, the family or the woman, not just a wife, but any woman, because that was the man's role in society. provider and protector. Don't get me wrong, there were the non-gentlemen, but lets stick to generalisations shall we.

Now, the feminists began to fight for equality, fantastic, no problem with that at all, but then they starting fighting the chivalry, they starting fighting the men who opened doors or tipped their hats, they fought to demasculate and demoralise any man who offered to fill the previously defined role, as women were capable of doing for themselves. Men began to question what it was they were supposed to do, as they were being lambasted if they tried to maintain the civil liberties that were given to women.

Then the pendulum kept getting pushed further, women started to divorce their men, just because they thought that they could get something better, the men lost half if not more of everything that they had worked for in a single swoop and then were also made to pay for the woman to have a comfortable lifestyle. So at this point a man is left with nothing to protect and yet still has to provide for a wife who is no longer involved, his worth in society is greatly reduced, as he has less than half of what he should have accumulated in his life till then, he is a failed husband, and his income is cut by a great percentage, so he is further held back from accumulating wealth and therefore has trouble attracting a new partner, because women STILL marry for security.

Amid all of this anarchy that is the male-female war of rights and responsibilities, women were taking more and more of their rights, again, no problem with this, but with rights come responsibilities, and the women were not taking the responsibilities on board. The family unit became defunct as women decided to burn their bras and leave the home to find a job in society that they deserved. The children in these families had a less stable PAIR of role models and were left questioning just what the hell was going on.

These children grew up in an era where the roles were less defined in the home and mum and dad held no clear cut definition, the lines were starting to blur, socially, men were not as deferential to women in their manners, women were outright hostile to men in scenarios where the men tried to remain old school and maintain the gentlemanly airs and graces. The message that was transferred to these children was confusing to say the least. Society had left a well worn and working path and was now trailblazing it's own way.

The children of the revolution grew up and formed their own families, with each side trying to fill a role that was now so undefined that they had to ad-lib and in doing so, more dysfunction was transferred into the family unit. The divorce rate started to increase as the women decided running and taking half and starting again all over with someone new was the easier option than working through life's problems and creating a relationship based on their own ideals rather than the feminazi model. These dysfunctional families created a generation of children with no idea what a family unit was, no skills for handling conflict or for relationship development and were solely focussed on themselves, a generation of people who were bought up with the idea that things meant happiness and people were just others to be competed with.

Somehow, this generation managed to reproduce, quite often their was no marriage or partnership, simple one night stands or casual sex, empowered women being impregnated because they didn't need a man in their lives. A generation born into some form of governmental financial assistance. A generation doomed to have no strong role model on either side, and a sense of entitlement from being raised on government handouts.... even the single mothers who work, are receiving supplemental income from the government. This generation have grown up with no idea what a stable family unit is, no idea what a gender role is, no idea that TV isn't real, no idea of the value of work, no idea about much at all really. They have an insatiable appetite for instantaneous gratification and are going to suffer greatly when they cant repay the loan for their big screen tv and xbox when the first payment is due in 12 months.

This is the worst of the generations up until now, but the splitting did not happen all at once, so we have a society with a mixture of all the generations attested to earlier, all at once in the same place. All competing..... you also get subsets of the generations, when differing generations crossbreed..... fascinating stuff when you sit back and watch it.

So, here you have my breakdown of how we have got it all wrong, notice though, that it is entire generations of people confused. The men you wish to see have been shouted down and put in a cage, we have no outward expression to create men anymore. We are arrested if we fight, scolded if we spit, and abused if we so much as dare to speak our minds.

So now we have metrosexual princesses who are going so far with the equality that they wear make-up and androgynise themselves, women who try to compete with men in their foolish pursuits of adrenaline, and binging, an entirely directionless, genderless mishmash without a thought in their vapid heads that does not centre around themselves, an entirely egocentric subset to society.

Real men went underground, waiting for the real women to come to us.


----------



## uphillbattle

R.J. said:


> I have a friend who's married and share an apartment with her husband. She's doing everything for them and he takes complete advantage of it. She's planning to leave, but at this exact moment she can't because they're tied to their lease and there are reasons why she can't just go. 1 being that she can't afford to pay rent at 2 places. If she were to lease another apartment, she'd have to continue paying rent at the current place until that lease is up because her husband can't afford to and the lease is in her name. As long as they're married, he is legally obligated to anything that she owns even though the place is in her name. Therefore, she can't force him to move out and if she just stopped paying the rent and get evicted it impacts her credit (not his). 2 if she packed up and left without having an official legal separation in tact, she can be accused of abandonment in court and increase the chances of having to pay alimony (due to not providing her spouse with "efficient" time to prepare for the separation) and risk losing everything that he's unwilling to give up (technically she "abandonned" her things to begin with). 3 she can't afford a lawyer because most lawyers in her township wants a minimum of $400+ for a consultation, and therefore, her only option is to do her own research to learn her rights as a wife.
> 
> Basically with her financial situation and to prevent getting even more financially doomed and risk losing all of her property, she's planning to wait until their lease is up, file for a legal separation, and then go from there. Once the separation is in tact, he will no longer have rights to her property.
> 
> So this is a perfect example of when neither kids nor love plays a role in a reason a wife can't just pack up and go right then and there.


I don't know where you live but I just took 5 whole min to find using google that it would cost me a 40$ filing fee and only about 15 sites on how to fill out the form for a legal seperation. It is not a divorce, a lawyer is not necessary. If she takes a few moments of her time to research, she will realize she is not trapped and have him evicted within 3 months. So please give me an example of somebody who doesn't have any options.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You tell me. Many men seem happy blaming women for their shortcomings. Feminism, bread winning, etc., seems to be the meme around here as the cancer on men. How?


Haven't seen many of them actually blaming women. They tend to be describing demotivating factors in society. I think many would join in and say that nothing external should keep a man from being a man, but then I realize that, while I don't change who I am, I behave completely different when I get off the plane to visit the area where I grew up than I did while walking on the streets where I live now. I grew up in an environment where many men were taught to be strong and respect the women in our lives in a way that elevates them, in a sense. The women I dated in the college years by and large were more romantically interested in a masculine man who was very serious about his responsibilities to his future family. 

That approach doesn't cut it where I live now if you are under 30. I listen to local media on the radio, instead of generic stations. Recently, there was one of these shows with mostly upper twenty something women talking about what they were looking for in a man for a good time. Clearly, the kind of guy I was as a younger man is not what they declare to be what the typical woman in the area is looking for. When you really think about what the guy that they pine for would be like, he would easily become the kind of guy that is derided in this thread. And I'm not bragging, but I was pretty popular in college. I know its anecdotal, but my wife's coworker has a son who is a star on his college basketball team. I gave the guy my old furniture from my study when my wife declared the sofa to be offensive, and guided me to the furniture she wanted. This guy was a pretty incredible person, tall, and according to my daughter, looked like a 9 out of 10. But he is very serious about his career after basketball. He seemed to be of a serious nature, but was quick to stand up and speak with passion about our city. His mom later said that the guy was dumped so many times that she wondered if it should be in the world book of records. The reason was that he didn't know how to party and was too serious. You, Brighteyes, know that I live in a city that defines societal decay, though, so its more like what we see our country heading to. Hey, I'm the only manager in my company who was once dragged out of his car by a mob when picking up an employee on my way to work.


----------



## AFEH

There can be no doubt whatsoever that boys and young men are influenced by their family (if they have one) and society they live in, no doubt at all. That was as true in the 12th and 20th centuries as it is today in the 21st century. In fact we “create” our sons and daughters in many more ways than just conceiving and giving birth to them. As we sow so shall we reap.

But it’s a pointless task trying to get any feminist to “admit” or own up to any downsides, unwanted side effects of feminism, even though feminism is the biggest change see in our most recent and current societies.

In essence the feminists are in a massive denial, very much like tobacco companies denied that smoking causes cancer. But at least the tobacco companies knew the truth of the matter and denied the cancer link for reasons of profit. The feminists aren’t even prepared to go as far as the tobacco companies and actually even consider believing there are any unwanted side effects to feminism. It’s the denial of exceedingly closed minds and for that it is exceedingly dangerous and damaging to the whole of society.

And it will get worse before it gets better. Simply because now it has become a way of life for so many, it’s an “expectation” the shortfalls of which are paid for and covered by the tax payers.


----------



## okeydokie

Mephisto said:


> I have been watching this thread for the last few days, and see the misandry starting to creep in. I know I will be flamed for my views on this but I guess it'll be an interesting response, so here goes.
> 
> Let's not comment on the people who are bone idle, as there are just as many stories about women with entitlement issues as men....
> 
> On to the question at hand, Where did it all go wrong?
> 
> When the feminist movement began, men showed chivalry and gentlemanly conduct to women at all times, they tipped their hats and watched their language and did not expose women to the cruder side of the male persona. They went to war to protect the women and they were the first to go into any form of dangerous situation to protect the home, the family or the woman, not just a wife, but any woman, because that was the man's role in society. provider and protector. Don't get me wrong, there were the non-gentlemen, but lets stick to generalisations shall we.
> 
> Now, the feminists began to fight for equality, fantastic, no problem with that at all, but then they starting fighting the chivalry, they starting fighting the men who opened doors or tipped their hats, they fought to demasculate and demoralise any man who offered to fill the previously defined role, as women were capable of doing for themselves. Men began to question what it was they were supposed to do, as they were being lambasted if they tried to maintain the civil liberties that were given to women.
> 
> Then the pendulum kept getting pushed further, women started to divorce their men, just because they thought that they could get something better, the men lost half if not more of everything that they had worked for in a single swoop and then were also made to pay for the woman to have a comfortable lifestyle. So at this point a man is left with nothing to protect and yet still has to provide for a wife who is no longer involved, his worth in society is greatly reduced, as he has less than half of what he should have accumulated in his life till then, he is a failed husband, and his income is cut by a great percentage, so he is further held back from accumulating wealth and therefore has trouble attracting a new partner, because women STILL marry for security.
> 
> Amid all of this anarchy that is the male-female war of rights and responsibilities, women were taking more and more of their rights, again, no problem with this, but with rights come responsibilities, and the women were not taking the responsibilities on board. The family unit became defunct as women decided to burn their bras and leave the home to find a job in society that they deserved. The children in these families had a less stable PAIR of role models and were left questioning just what the hell was going on.
> 
> These children grew up in an era where the roles were less defined in the home and mum and dad held no clear cut definition, the lines were starting to blur, socially, men were not as deferential to women in their manners, women were outright hostile to men in scenarios where the men tried to remain old school and maintain the gentlemanly airs and graces. The message that was transferred to these children was confusing to say the least. Society had left a well worn and working path and was now trailblazing it's own way.
> 
> The children of the revolution grew up and formed their own families, with each side trying to fill a role that was now so undefined that they had to ad-lib and in doing so, more dysfunction was transferred into the family unit. The divorce rate started to increase as the women decided running and taking half and starting again all over with someone new was the easier option than working through life's problems and creating a relationship based on their own ideals rather than the feminazi model. These dysfunctional families created a generation of children with no idea what a family unit was, no skills for handling conflict or for relationship development and were solely focussed on themselves, a generation of people who were bought up with the idea that things meant happiness and people were just others to be competed with.
> 
> Somehow, this generation managed to reproduce, quite often their was no marriage or partnership, simple one night stands or casual sex, empowered women being impregnated because they didn't need a man in their lives. A generation born into some form of governmental financial assistance. A generation doomed to have no strong role model on either side, and a sense of entitlement from being raised on government handouts.... even the single mothers who work, are receiving supplemental income from the government. This generation have grown up with no idea what a stable family unit is, no idea what a gender role is, no idea that TV isn't real, no idea of the value of work, no idea about much at all really. They have an insatiable appetite for instantaneous gratification and are going to suffer greatly when they cant repay the loan for their big screen tv and xbox when the first payment is due in 12 months.
> 
> This is the worst of the generations up until now, but the splitting did not happen all at once, so we have a society with a mixture of all the generations attested to earlier, all at once in the same place. All competing..... you also get subsets of the generations, when differing generations crossbreed..... fascinating stuff when you sit back and watch it.
> 
> So, here you have my breakdown of how we have got it all wrong, notice though, that it is entire generations of people confused. The men you wish to see have been shouted down and put in a cage, we have no outward expression to create men anymore. We are arrested if we fight, scolded if we spit, and abused if we so much as dare to speak our minds.
> 
> So now we have metrosexual princesses who are going so far with the equality that they wear make-up and androgynise themselves, women who try to compete with men in their foolish pursuits of adrenaline, and binging, an entirely directionless, genderless mishmash without a thought in their vapid heads that does not centre around themselves, an entirely egocentric subset to society.
> 
> Real men went underground, waiting for the real women to come to us.


sums it up fairly well. i think i was the first to mention feminism at a great contributer to the the original thread title. i did not mean it as it has been apparently taken by many of the ladies in here. i do not wish to see any gender or race of people opressed in anyway, i have always respected and supported most ideals of the feminst movement (voting, equal pay for equal work, burning bras  etc..). however, there is no way anyone can deny that it has changed society and how men view everything about women and themselves.


----------



## Lon

Halien said:


> ...He seemed to be of a serious nature, but was quick to stand up and speak with passion about our city. His mom later said that the guy was dumped so many times that she wondered if it should be in the world book of records. The reason was that he didn't know how to party and was too serious....


After reading Mephistos post (which, though I'm not prepared to defend, seems to resonate strongly with me) and your notion of being too serious, somewhere inside me a feel a little tug of despair. I look to stories of prior generations where even serious guys could find a cool girl, where a person's character attracts a really good mate... but my whole life I've looked around and seen what seems like a horde of irresponsible people having all kinds of fun things in life... and it is still working for them it seems - it seems the character that is successful is one that mainly knows how to party and have fun (and if they have other traits such as intellect that is perhaps a bonus).

My struggle all my life is trying to decided if my inability to really let loose is a matter of integrity or if I'm in fact broken. I have a pretty good sense of humor, but it is almost always trumped by my sense of chivalry and politeness, maybe that is just my niceguyness problem coming to the surface. And now facing life as a divorced dad, it is really a struggle to decide how I want to proceed, I want to attract a cool woman but don't want to instill a sense of self-centeredness in my son, or perhaps I'm better throwing that broken paradigm out and just start caring less and hope when the time comes my ingrained sense of responsibility guides me subconsciously to the right place.

In fact just two days ago I found myself googling "how to be more playful" (and I wasn't searching for just with the opposite sex).

It is tough being a good man in todays world. Our male ancestors faced challenge and adversity too, but nothing that resembles what today's men face - not saying who had it worse, just that we are in uncharted waters (and so are today's women, as all of society).


----------



## Scannerguard

Realbrighteyes,

Honestly, I don't know your problem.

Before we converse in the future, you just need to tell me, "I want to debate you, Scannerguard" and then I'll know where you are coming from.

I only said the 15-35% child support "evaporating into nothingness" could be a possible explanation for a declining work ethic.

I did not condone it (and went out of my way to say that). I do not encourage it to any guy.

It's stinkin' thinkin' but nonetheless, the OP is asking about "Thinking" and I am sticking to my story, that I have seen a lot of men not take that promotion, not take overtime, not take that side job.

Why? 

Because I would just have to hand a lot of it over to my ex, is the thinking, and she'll just spend it on make-up and nails.

My attorney has noted he has seen it and has counseled me otherwise. I told him no need to; I'm on a 100%. I will pay my share and continue to try to earn more, no matter how the system penalizes me, if it does.

I'd rather be out scratching a living out, meeking an existence, being drown in child support (I am not, I think it's fair), than be back in a house being the family **** (and treated as such) cooking, cleaning, and doing laundry, and definitely not appreciated for such.

Kapeesh?

Never, EVER will I go back to a Feminist lifestyle. I'd rather live in a trailer and smoke Camels and drink Piels with Billy Bob Jimmy Boy.


----------



## morituri

What a blame fest indeed.

Has it occurred to any of you that the reason why we have this group of men - and yes, women (shocking isn't it?) - is because there are enablers like the OP who is more a mother than a wife?

Look, men and women suffer because they choose to suffer. Nobody puts a gun to our heads and tells us that we have to continue being married to a slob or a cheat. If being married to our spouse is causing us great unhappiness, then we should divorce him/her. Otherwise we should stop whining like spoiled little brats.

When men and women stop settling for this group of men and women and choose to dump them, then this group of people will cease to exist as lifelong mates.

A real man/woman doesn't complain about the unfairness of life, he/she simply gets up, dusts him/herself off, and continues to strive to be happy.

To look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we have the power to change our lives for the better, is much harder task than to whine, isn't it?


----------



## Jamison

morituri said:


> What a blame fest indeed.
> 
> Has it occurred to any of you that the reason why we have this group of men - and yes, women (shocking isn't it?) - is because there are enablers like the OP who is more a mother than a wife?
> 
> Look, men and women suffer because they choose to suffer. Nobody puts a gun to our heads and tells us that we have to continue being married to a slob or a cheat. If being married to our spouse is causing us great unhappiness, then we should divorce him/her. Otherwise we should stop whining like spoiled little brats.
> 
> When men and women stop settling for this group of men and women and choose to dump them, then this group of people will cease to exist as lifelong mates.
> 
> A real man/woman doesn't complain about the unfairness of life, he/she simply gets up, dusts him/herself off, and continues to strive to be happy.
> 
> To look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we have the power to change our lives for the better, is much harder task than to whine, isn't it?


:iagree:


----------



## Scannerguard

Again, I have to come to RJ's defense. . .and maybe we all need to do this when we are talking.

There's a personal problem, advice, ranting. . .and then there's discussion.

She was simply noting what she sees as a trend. YOu can agree with the generalization, disagree, and yes, maybe her own experience is tainting her viewpoint.

I don't - let's step back. . .take a breather.

Like one poster said. . ."Does anyone know of any guy who doesn't do anything, just sits around eating grilled cheese sandwiches and playing video games?"

I really can't think of one either.

Now. . .maybe some guys aren't the "go-getters" of yesteryear? The ol' "I'll do anything it takes to earn a bigger buck" mentality. Not sure if RJ is lamenting that. . .maybe that is true?

Or is the male work ethic essentially the same and it's a misgeneralization?

I don't think it's a huge misgeneralization.

Men may be lulled into a sense that "Hey, I guess I'll have another income earner here. . .I don't have to take that crappy promotion or transfer and I won't."

I don't know. . .I don't know A, if this is true, and B, I don't know if we can even talk about it here with not everyone going postal and taking it personally.

I didn't take it personally. I work hard.


----------



## Enginerd

Mephisto said:


> I have been watching this thread for the last few days, and see the misandry starting to creep in. I know I will be flamed for my views on this but I guess it'll be an interesting response, so here goes.
> 
> Let's not comment on the people who are bone idle, as there are just as many stories about women with entitlement issues as men....
> 
> On to the question at hand, Where did it all go wrong?
> 
> When the feminist movement began, men showed chivalry and gentlemanly conduct to women at all times, they tipped their hats and watched their language and did not expose women to the cruder side of the male persona. They went to war to protect the women and they were the first to go into any form of dangerous situation to protect the home, the family or the woman, not just a wife, but any woman, because that was the man's role in society. provider and protector. Don't get me wrong, there were the non-gentlemen, but lets stick to generalisations shall we.
> 
> Now, the feminists began to fight for equality, fantastic, no problem with that at all, but then they starting fighting the chivalry, they starting fighting the men who opened doors or tipped their hats, they fought to demasculate and demoralise any man who offered to fill the previously defined role, as women were capable of doing for themselves. Men began to question what it was they were supposed to do, as they were being lambasted if they tried to maintain the civil liberties that were given to women.
> 
> Then the pendulum kept getting pushed further, women started to divorce their men, just because they thought that they could get something better, the men lost half if not more of everything that they had worked for in a single swoop and then were also made to pay for the woman to have a comfortable lifestyle. So at this point a man is left with nothing to protect and yet still has to provide for a wife who is no longer involved, his worth in society is greatly reduced, as he has less than half of what he should have accumulated in his life till then, he is a failed husband, and his income is cut by a great percentage, so he is further held back from accumulating wealth and therefore has trouble attracting a new partner, because women STILL marry for security.
> 
> Amid all of this anarchy that is the male-female war of rights and responsibilities, women were taking more and more of their rights, again, no problem with this, but with rights come responsibilities, and the women were not taking the responsibilities on board. The family unit became defunct as women decided to burn their bras and leave the home to find a job in society that they deserved. The children in these families had a less stable PAIR of role models and were left questioning just what the hell was going on.
> 
> These children grew up in an era where the roles were less defined in the home and mum and dad held no clear cut definition, the lines were starting to blur, socially, men were not as deferential to women in their manners, women were outright hostile to men in scenarios where the men tried to remain old school and maintain the gentlemanly airs and graces. The message that was transferred to these children was confusing to say the least. Society had left a well worn and working path and was now trailblazing it's own way.
> 
> The children of the revolution grew up and formed their own families, with each side trying to fill a role that was now so undefined that they had to ad-lib and in doing so, more dysfunction was transferred into the family unit. The divorce rate started to increase as the women decided running and taking half and starting again all over with someone new was the easier option than working through life's problems and creating a relationship based on their own ideals rather than the feminazi model. These dysfunctional families created a generation of children with no idea what a family unit was, no skills for handling conflict or for relationship development and were solely focussed on themselves, a generation of people who were bought up with the idea that things meant happiness and people were just others to be competed with.
> 
> Somehow, this generation managed to reproduce, quite often their was no marriage or partnership, simple one night stands or casual sex, empowered women being impregnated because they didn't need a man in their lives. A generation born into some form of governmental financial assistance. A generation doomed to have no strong role model on either side, and a sense of entitlement from being raised on government handouts.... even the single mothers who work, are receiving supplemental income from the government. This generation have grown up with no idea what a stable family unit is, no idea what a gender role is, no idea that TV isn't real, no idea of the value of work, no idea about much at all really. They have an insatiable appetite for instantaneous gratification and are going to suffer greatly when they cant repay the loan for their big screen tv and xbox when the first payment is due in 12 months.
> 
> This is the worst of the generations up until now, but the splitting did not happen all at once, so we have a society with a mixture of all the generations attested to earlier, all at once in the same place. All competing..... you also get subsets of the generations, when differing generations crossbreed..... fascinating stuff when you sit back and watch it.
> 
> So, here you have my breakdown of how we have got it all wrong, notice though, that it is entire generations of people confused. The men you wish to see have been shouted down and put in a cage, we have no outward expression to create men anymore. We are arrested if we fight, scolded if we spit, and abused if we so much as dare to speak our minds.
> 
> So now we have metrosexual princesses who are going so far with the equality that they wear make-up and androgynise themselves, women who try to compete with men in their foolish pursuits of adrenaline, and binging, an entirely directionless, genderless mishmash without a thought in their vapid heads that does not centre around themselves, an entirely egocentric subset to society.
> 
> Real men went underground, waiting for the real women to come to us.


I couldn't have said it better. I hope the see the PC/Feminist pendulum swing back to "rational" in my lifetime. It think its very telling that women are starting to experience more health problems from competing in the work place. Eventually they will not be outliving men and I suspect they will begin to realize that"equality" is not all its cracked up to be.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scannerguard said:


> Again, I have to come to RJ's defense. . .and maybe we all need to do this when we are talking.
> 
> There's a personal problem, advice, ranting. . .and then there's discussion.
> 
> She was simply noting what she sees as a trend. YOu can agree with the generalization, disagree, and yes, maybe her own experience is tainting her viewpoint.
> 
> I don't - let's step back. . .take a breather.
> 
> Like one poster said. . ."Does anyone know of any guy who doesn't do anything, just sits around eating grilled cheese sandwiches and playing video games?"
> 
> I really can't think of one either.
> 
> Now. . .maybe some guys aren't the "go-getters" of yesteryear? The ol' "I'll do anything it takes to earn a bigger buck" mentality. Not sure if RJ is lamenting that. . .maybe that is true?
> 
> Or is the male work ethic essentially the same and it's a misgeneralization?
> 
> I don't think it's a huge misgeneralization.
> 
> Men may be lulled into a sense that "Hey, I guess I'll have another income earner here. . .I don't have to take that crappy promotion or transfer and I won't."
> 
> I don't know. . .I don't know A, if this is true, and B, I don't know if we can even talk about it here with not everyone going postal and taking it personally.
> 
> I didn't take it personally. I work hard.


I agree wholeheartedly Scanner. Are there men who are lazy/slackers? Sure....just as there are women. I personally don't know any man like the OP described. In this economy, I know more people who are working longer hours (for free), traveling for work more and attending work functions just to be "seen". We don't have the luxury of being lazy nowadays. 
Not sure about men not being the go getters of yesteryear. Do you mean not owning their own businesses/firms? Hmm, maybe but I think that has more to do with the lack of lending for small businesses and the fail rate of small businesses in this day and age rather than the drive of a man. Many are just fearful of going it alone but I don't think that means they lack a go getter attitude. Not sure what you meant there. Hopefully I got it right. :scratchhead:


----------



## R.J.

morituri said:


> What a blame fest indeed.
> 
> Has it occurred to any of you that the reason why we have this group of men - and yes, women (shocking isn't it?) - is because there are enablers like the OP who is more a mother than a wife?
> 
> Look, men and women suffer because they choose to suffer. Nobody puts a gun to our heads and tells us that we have to continue being married to a slob or a cheat. If being married to our spouse is causing us great unhappiness, then we should divorce him/her. Otherwise we should stop whining like spoiled little brats.
> 
> When men and women stop settling for this group of men and women and choose to dump them, then this group of people will cease to exist as lifelong mates.
> 
> A real man/woman doesn't complain about the unfairness of life, he/she simply gets up, dusts him/herself off, and continues to strive to be happy.
> 
> To look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we have the power to change our lives for the better, is much harder task than to whine, isn't it?



First of all, not everyone wants to dive directly into a divorce just because things aren't the way that they should be. Sometimes people want to try to fix things and to do that it may take obtaining advice. What you call "whining", I consider to be expressing one's feelings about the issues they're dealing with and seeking any suggestions on what could be done to solve them.

You're response suggests that you'd run for divorce at the 1st sign of things not working out. Some people don't want to end their marriage when things are immediately sour. However, after obtaining all the advice they could retrieve, been to all the counselors they could afford, tried severals time to work things out with their spouse and things still don't work, then they'll consider the final alternative "divorce."

Therefore, it isn't fair of you to just accuse "enablers (like myself)" to be whiners who won't just shut up and divorce. Excuse me for trying to fight and find a way to fix what's broken.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scannerguard said:


> Realbrighteyes,
> 
> Honestly, I don't know your problem.
> 
> Before we converse in the future, you just need to tell me, "I want to debate you, Scannerguard" and then I'll know where you are coming from.
> 
> I only said the 15-35% child support "evaporating into nothingness" could be a possible explanation for a declining work ethic.
> 
> I did not condone it (and went out of my way to say that). I do not encourage it to any guy.
> 
> It's stinkin' thinkin' but nonetheless, the OP is asking about "Thinking" and I am sticking to my story, that I have seen a lot of men not take that promotion, not take overtime, not take that side job.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because I would just have to hand a lot of it over to my ex, is the thinking, and she'll just spend it on make-up and nails.
> 
> My attorney has noted he has seen it and has counseled me otherwise. I told him no need to; I'm on a 100%. I will pay my share and continue to try to earn more, no matter how the system penalizes me, if it does.
> 
> I'd rather be out scratching a living out, meeking an existence, being drown in child support (I am not, I think it's fair), than be back in a house being the family **** (and treated as such) cooking, cleaning, and doing laundry, and definitely not appreciated for such.
> 
> Kapeesh?
> 
> Never, EVER will I go back to a Feminist lifestyle. I'd rather live in a trailer and smoke Camels and drink Piels with Billy Bob Jimmy Boy.


I NEVER said you, Scanner. Tone doesn't come across well. I know you love your sons and you pay accordingly. Good Lord, you are not the person I was referring to. I was referring to the countless non-custodial parents who complain that they have to pay so much. It is chump change compared to what kids actually cost.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You tell me. Many men seem happy blaming women for their shortcomings. Feminism, bread winning, etc., seems to be the meme around here as the cancer on men. How?


Please. It appears that little or nothing about man's nature has changed since Adam blamed "the woman" for his disobedience in the garden. And this goes for any man that blames his actions on women, whether it is his wife, his mother, his teacher or women in general.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> I think most of the riffing about these roles is an artifact of what age a person is that holds the views.
> 
> If you were to talk about the war between the sexes or feminism, traditional roles, etc., with someone the age of my children (mid20s), they really don't get all the hullabaloo.
> 
> The fighting of that war is long gone in their reality. Ancient history.


Oh wise one! 
It's us old fuddy duddies who moan about gender roles. We can all talk about the pendulum shift but that won't happen. Kids today have been raised to understand equality and tolerance. What a sad state we live in.


----------



## Scannerguard

TheRealBrightEyes,

Ah, my mistake then. I apologize for misreading you.

As far as the socio-economico-politico analysis on feminism posted above. . .it's beautifully written and tied together, but yet, believe it or not, I think comes across a little too anti-female (the feminazi comment, for instance).

I think we all agree feminism needed to happen (or mostly all agree, I would hope). . .a countermovement is now needed, that's all. 

I think there were casualties in this war, mainly the family.

I'll admit I am not sure of the details of this countermovement, but I am sure I should be it's political leader 

As far as marriage is related, I think you'll find my positions more moderate than you may suspect.

It wasn't uncommon for our grandmothers to say:

_"Pasquale was such a good man. He never laid a hand on me."_

I would suggest that perhaps grandma needed to raise her standards.

Now, it's not uncommon to hear:

_"Patrick does not keep the house to my standard. The toilet has some pee around it, and there is a pile of laundry that needs folding. Yes, he ran the kids to sports, came home at lunch and put some food in teh crockpot, but I had to leave him a note to do it. He also didn't want to take that job promotion that would have landed him more money because he didn't like the boss in operations.

And OMG? He expects sex? Yeah, right. . .I think I'll vomit from anger."_

I would suggest 21rst century women need to lower their standards a bit?

Maybe Mom had the right balance?

Or perhaps women just don't need men. A vibrator would perhaps suffice.

I am not sure.

Maybe this is our Brave New World.


----------



## Bottled Up

Some day humans will eventually evolve to become hermaphrodites and only THEN will there be gender equality and therefore, peace on earth (or Mars)


----------



## Scannerguard

Well it's nice to know my penis may be on the endangered species list. . .maybe it can lobby for certain protections and rights?


----------



## Bottled Up

Scannerguard said:


> Well it's nice to know my penis may be on the endangered species list. . .maybe it can lobby for certain protections and rights?


You have the right to buy condoms... and there's the protection for your penis


----------



## R.J.

Scannerguard said:


> I'd rather live in a trailer and smoke Camels and drink Piels with Billy Bob Jimmy Boy.


:lol::rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scannerguard said:


> TheRealBrightEyes,
> 
> Ah, my mistake then. I apologize for misreading you.
> 
> As far as the socio-economico-politico analysis on feminism posted above. . .it's beautifully written and tied together, but yet, believe it or not, I think comes across a little too anti-female (the feminazi comment, for instance).
> 
> I think we all agree feminism needed to happen (or mostly all agree, I would hope). . .a countermovement is now needed, that's all.
> 
> I think there were casualties in this war, mainly the family.
> 
> I'll admit I am not sure of the details of this countermovement, but I am sure I should be it's political leader
> 
> As far as marriage is related, I think you'll find my positions more moderate than you may suspect.
> 
> It wasn't uncommon for our grandmothers to say:
> 
> _"Pasquale was such a good man. He never laid a hand on me."_
> 
> I would suggest that perhaps grandma needed to raise her standards.
> 
> Now, it's not uncommon to hear:
> 
> _"Patrick does not keep the house to my standard. The toilet has some pee around it, and there is a pile of laundry that needs folding. Yes, he ran the kids to sports, came home at lunch and put some food in teh crockpot, but I had to leave him a note to do it. He also didn't want to take that job promotion that would have landed him more money because he didn't like the boss in operations.
> 
> And OMG? He expects sex? Yeah, right. . .I think I'll vomit from anger."_
> 
> I would suggest 21rst century women need to lower their standards a bit?
> 
> Maybe Mom had the right balance?
> 
> Or perhaps women just don't need men. A vibrator would perhaps suffice.
> 
> I am not sure.
> 
> Maybe this is our Brave New World.


I think you and I run in different circles. I don't know any woman who would value a man because he didn't hit her and I don't know any woman who would moan that her husband came home for lunch to prepare dinner and then complain about it. 

About the family, I think feminism is less to blame for this. At its purest form, feminism was a great idea. Equality and women working to provide stability. If a man lost his job he had the security that his wife could at least help out financially. I don't see this as a bad thing.
What I think happened to the family unit wasn't feminism rather consumerism. Two incomes suddenly became a gold mine for advertisers. What did they do? They sold us that having the latest and greatest was important. Granted we all had a choice in this but many got sucked in to the dream. You CAN have it all. What happened? People extending beyond their means, flipped on their houses, leasing cars, buying furniture via Visa and taking vacations on Amex extended pay. 
In doing so, they have to work longer hours to pay for this lifestyle. The 40 hour workweek is a thing of the past. It's all about keeping up with the Jones's. It hurt the family unit to the core but everybody thinks that "stuff" is what it is all about. 
I grew up the daughter of immigrants who saved, scrimped and eventually became rich. The lesson about money I got from them was this "You only buy a house on credit". Why? It appreciates. Cars don't. Neither do clothes, jewelry or groceries.

Bottom line Scanner, I think feminism wasn't the cause of the demise of the American family....I think greed was.


----------



## Scannerguard

> I think you and I run in different circles. I don't know any woman who would value a man because he didn't hit her and I don't know any woman who would moan that her husband came home for lunch to prepare dinner and then complain about it.


Really? I think I am spot on.

Talk to octogenarians. Their expectations for a good man were rather low. (IMO).

Now. . .go talk to SimplyAmorous's niece or her other circle of friends and hear their expectations, or read them between the lines.

Man has got to fart butterflies, deliver an orgasm on demand (even though they can't give themselves one) and be hairless from neck to balls.

While we are on generalizations that is. . .


----------



## Scannerguard

> Originally Posted by Scannerguard
> Well it's nice to know my penis may be on the endangered species list. . .maybe it can lobby for certain protections and rights?
> 
> You have the right to buy condoms... and there's the protection for your penis


Dowlll! 

I thought, as an endangered species, my penis coudl be granted the right to "free range", the right to roam a bit. . .let it get some clean fresh air. 

The right to mate. . .and reproduce more penises. . .oh right, 3 boys, I did do that already, huh? 

Maybe it needs to be fenced. . .


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scannerguard said:


> Really? I think I am spot on.
> 
> Talk to octogenarians. Their expectations for a good man were rather low. (IMO).
> 
> Now. . .go talk to SimplyAmorous's niece or her other circle of friends and hear their expectations, or read them between the lines.
> 
> Man has got to fart butterflies, deliver an orgasm on demand (even though they can't give themselves one) and be hairless from neck to balls.
> 
> While we are on generalizations that is. . .


No, what SA's niece was saying is that she is educated/accomplished and she expects her potential mate to be just that. I don't see this as a bad thing. Water reaches it's own level.


----------



## FrankKissel

morituri said:


> What a blame fest indeed.
> 
> Has it occurred to any of you that the reason why we have this group of men - and yes, women (shocking isn't it?) - is because there are enablers like the OP who is more a mother than a wife?
> 
> Look, men and women suffer because they choose to suffer. Nobody puts a gun to our heads and tells us that we have to continue being married to a slob or a cheat. If being married to our spouse is causing us great unhappiness, then we should divorce him/her. Otherwise we should stop whining like spoiled little brats.
> 
> When men and women stop settling for this group of men and women and choose to dump them, then this group of people will cease to exist as lifelong mates.
> 
> A real man/woman doesn't complain about the unfairness of life, he/she simply gets up, dusts him/herself off, and continues to strive to be happy.
> 
> To look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we have the power to change our lives for the better, is much harder task than to whine, isn't it?


Best post in the thread.
Other than mine, of course.

Astounded by the number of "real men" here who do little other than play victim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

FrenchFry said:


> Well, yeah. As a midtwenty-something, Mephisto's little rant was positively Beck-esque (especially the part about metrosexuals. For real? Men using a little hair product is the downfall of society?) No respect for anyone using the term feminazi either. But, you know. Boomers
> 
> Anyhoo, I'm on a phone that won't let me copy text from a site, but I just read that we will have to wait till 2050 until mens hours equal womens doing household chores. So, I'll be 63 when my husband does the dishes every other day? LOL.
> 
> Seriously, I don't know why (barring illness) people get lazy about their own house, you are the ones who have to live there. Nobody gets a free pass, if you live in your house, do something to contribute to its well being. Man, woman, child; my toddler picks up his toys and wipes down his high chair.  I stay at home, I clean the bulk of the house. If the situation was reversed, i'd expect the same from my husb. When I go back to work, chores will once again be equally divided. I know I have a real man, are they really that rare?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My sons have been making their own lunch since they were 8. At the age of 19 and 14 now, they both know how to cook. I am talking pork tenderloin with sour cherry reduction sauce kind of cooking. They also know how to change a tire, use a power drill flawlessly and re grout the tub. They use hair gel though so everything is out the window.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, what SA's niece was saying is that she is educated/accomplished and she expects her potential mate to be just that. I don't see this as a bad thing. Water reaches it's own level.


You know what is funny to me about this.... women want water to reach it's own level, I do not disagree with this comment at all ! 

....but men are not the same as women, thank God ....... many GOOD men still look more to a woman's character in choosing a wife, they want to know if she will be faithful, if she will make a good nurthering Mother to the children they create, they look for someone who will respect them, who will devote herself to their growing family, they do not demand that their potential wives earn as much as them , it is not about financial success , that water reaching thier level. 

See, Men still have that drive to protect and cherish and take care of. 

Women will never be the same, they would not lower themselves ....and no matter what they say.... they generally look down on men who make less $$, because they are not inherently meant to be the Breadwinners, the protecters. 

As always, love Mephisto's posts, I think alot like him.


----------



## FrankKissel

SimplyAmorous said:


> Women will never be the same, they would not lower themselves ....and no matter what they say.... they generally look down on men who make less $$, because they are not inherently meant to be the Breadwinners, the protecters.


I'm afraid this simply is not correct, and any anthropologist will tell you so. There's no such thing as an inherent breadwinner. In the human race's first, and most primitive, societies (and therefore those closest to our inherent nature) there was an equal division of labor among the sexes. And it wasn't simply men hunted and women gathered. In fact, BOTH hunted and BOTH gathered.

Now, in the many centuries since have people been socially conditioned to see the ma as breadwinner? Sure. But that's conditioning, not human nature. And, relatively speaking, it's a recent phenomena. Slowly, but surely, that conditioning will change as society changes - and society always changes.
You are free to hold firm to outdated notions about gender roles. Certainly you won't be alone, and if it works for you, that's cool. But most people, especially the young, recognize that men and women are fully capable of providing for themselves, or one another, if they so choose. There's absolutely nothing in our nature that defines one sex as "breadwinner" and the other as "homemaker."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> You know what is funny to me about this.... women want water to reach it's own level, I do not disagree with this comment at all !
> 
> ....but men are not the same as women, thank God ....... many GOOD men still look more to a woman's character in choosing a wife, they want to know if she will be faithful, if she will make a good nurthering Mother to the children they create, they look for someone who will respect them, who will devote herself to their growing family, they do not demand that their potential wives earn as much as them , it is not about financial success , that water reaching thier level.
> 
> See, Men still have that drive to protect and cherish and take care of.
> 
> Women will never be the same, they would not lower themselves ....and no matter what they say.... they generally look down on men who make less $$, because they are not inherently meant to be the Breadwinners, the protecters.
> 
> As always, love Mephisto's posts, I think alot like him.


I DID NOT say women want water to reach their own level, I said water reaches it's own level. Water isn't gender specific at all. 
Simply put, a smart man doesn't want an idiot wife. A smart woman doesn't want a stupid man. 
There is a reason why 10's marry 10's. There is a reason why smart people marry their own and their is a reason why we all gravitate to the reflection of ourselves.


----------



## ocotillo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> My sons have been making their own lunch since they were 8. At the age of 19 and 14 now, they both know how to cook. I am talking pork tenderloin with sour cherry reduction sauce kind of cooking. They also know how to change a tire, use a power drill flawlessly and re grout the tub. They use hair gel though so everything is out the window.


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:

I'd be willing to bet that these are not boys who will ever shirk their share of the responsibility in a relationship


----------



## Mephisto

kind of like the bait and switch? but in reverse?


----------



## Mephisto

Couple of clarifications for my earlier post.

Feminazi: There's a difference between a feminazi and a feminist.

A feminist is someone who supports womens' rights, feminists believe that women should have rights equal to men. Simple as that. Feminism is cool.

Feminazis believe that men should have no rights and should be killed. 

Metrosexuals: A straight man who embraces the homosexual lifestyle, i.e. refined tastes in clothing, excessive use of designer hygiene products, etc. Usually is on the brink of homosexuality. Generally takes longer than a woman to get himself ready to go out in public.


----------



## morituri

R.J. said:


> First of all, not everyone wants to dive directly into a divorce just because things aren't the way that they should be. Sometimes people want to try to fix things and to do that it may take obtaining advice. What you call "whining", I consider to be expressing one's feelings about the issues they're dealing with and seeking any suggestions on what could be done to solve them.
> 
> You're response suggests that you'd run for divorce at the 1st sign of things not working out. Some people don't want to end their marriage when things are immediately sour. However, after obtaining all the advice they could retrieve, been to all the counselors they could afford, tried severals time to work things out with their spouse and things still don't work, then they'll consider the final alternative "divorce."
> 
> Therefore, it isn't fair of you to just accuse "enablers (like myself)" to be whiners who won't just shut up and divorce. Excuse me for trying to fight and find a way to fix what's broken.



*Interesting reply considering what you wrote on your first post on TAM @ 12-07-2011, 08:37 AM (see below)*



R.J. said:


> I've been married for 3 years and I can't recall a moment of peace throughout this time. *I've been seriously contemplating a divorce for a year now*, but haven't actually made any moves. My husband and I are far from friends. We don't really talk or do anything together. There's no kissing, hugging, or cuddling in our marriage (with having said that you can imagine what else we're lacking). In the beginning I tried to be affectionate, but over time I got tired of initiating and just stopped.
> 
> *I'm not attracted to him anymore and I'm definitely not proud to have him as my husband*. I came into this marriage not realizing what I actually married into. I make much more money, he has 2 children by 2 different ridiculous women, and he doesn't have a great career. Financial disputes have definitely deteoriated the quality of our marriage. Most of the money he does make goes toward child support, which drives me crazy. I do feel really bad that the support payments have prevented him from providing in our marriage, but at the same time I wonder why this unfortunate fact doesn't give him drive to do more (like go back to school). I'm tired of supporting us. All the bills and everything else is on my dime. It's getting old. On top of that he's unappreciative. He's gotten to the point where he acts like I'm suppose to do it all.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect. I've given him hell as well, but I PROMISE it's because I've felt so used and taken advantage of over the years. I mean I do so much and have to deal with so much baggage that it prevents me from being the sweet, kind, loving wife that I'm capable of being. I work all day, come home, cook, and clean while he sits and watches football. This is EVERYDAY. He doesn't do anything to try to make things easier for me.
> 
> My husband has a very poor attitude. He's very opinionated, strong willed, and think he knows everything. Everything in life is a conspiracy too (UGH!!!). He doesn't like to go anywhere or do anything unless it involves a sport.
> 
> So let's conclude this. I'm tired of never getting affection, paying for everything, never receiving nice things, never being told thank you or I'm sorry when he does something wrong, and dealing with these rats that he had children with. I'm tired of doing all the cooking and cleaning, while watching him sit on his tail and reap the benefits. *How am I benefiting from this marriage? What do I have to gain by being married to this man? :scratchhead:*
> 
> I know this isn't suppose to be my life. I have a great career, no children, I'm fairly young, and I love living. I know I wasn't created to deal with kids that aren't mine, a lacking husband, and a lacking life. What are your thoughts????


----------



## chillymorn

Feminazi.

LOL we all know one.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Mephisto said:


> Couple of clarifications for my earlier post.
> 
> Feminazi: There's a difference between a feminazi and a feminist.
> 
> A feminist is someone who supports womens' rights, feminists believe that women should have rights equal to men. Simple as that. Feminism is cool.
> 
> Feminazis believe that men should have no rights and should be killed.
> 
> Metrosexuals: A straight man who embraces the homosexual lifestyle, i.e. refined tastes in clothing, excessive use of designer hygiene products, etc. Usually is on the brink of homosexuality. Generally takes longer than a woman to get himself ready to go out in public.


Feminazi was a word coined by Rush Limbaugh as a term he ascribed to all feminist women. He signed this term to one particular caller in the early 1990's who left her alchoholic husband and was raising her sons without support. Instead of saying "Wow, kuddos", Rush waxed on about the demise of marriage, the family and that THAT woman was the cause of it. He called her a feminazi. 

Yeah, I highly doubt most women want men dead. Not me at least. That term is beyond disgusting but look at the source. A man with a drug addiction who had his female maid deported so she couldn't testify. He got off scott free and that term has stood. Amazing. A fat/bloated red faced drug addict pile of crap who had the gaul to ascribe a term to a woman who left her abusive husband and he stood in judgment of that. He railed against a woman for not sticking through it all but what did he do? Lied, lied and lied some more......oh and got rid of the evidence. 

Not a feminazi at all but if I could have 10 minutes with him, yup.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I am living proof that a woman can live independently, without a man to support them. However, despite my Generation Y leanings, I realize that some things will NEVER change.

Think about it. How often do unemployed men attract women who want to marry them? Why do younger women marry financially solvent older men? Even if couples are poor when they marry, there is always the tacit expectation that the husband will elevate the family's economic status. Nobody ever belittles a woman who does not provide for her family!

I am blessed to live in a time where the educational and career opportunities for women are abundant. I only wish that feminism was not tainted with women, who devalue other females for being traditional. It was supposed to be about choices.

How did this thread become about feminism?? I wonder why many threads all come back to this same issue. :scratchhead:


----------



## FirstYearDown

I don't like men who are too well groomed. Facials, manicures and waxed eyebrows are just too feminine for me. 

A well dressed man is a turn on, though women have variations on what fashionable looks like. I prefer the classic preppy look.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I'm sitting here with my oldest college bound son, he was intregued by the thread title here -looking over my computer screen , and had a few ideas of his own.... These are his words about what is messing men up in todays society...



> 1. Todays media - #1 Rap , the Rap culture...which glorifys drugs, which ends up in people getting addicted - also in this culture women are looked down upon, not respected, treated as objects, not as people in these songs we praise. Ex Little Wayne Snoop Dog, Eminem -etc Look at their lyrics.
> 
> 2. Fatherless homes...in todays society divorce rates are way up , so children are raised without a father- so they have no example, or mentor , so these kids have to look for it elsewhere or they just don't have an example.
> 
> 3. Definition of Manhood ...or lack there of...
> 
> How is manhood defined in todays society?
> 
> Is it getting laid, your 1st beer, getting a drivers liscense, how much iron you pump, growing a beard, your 1st job, is it making 6 figures, and the cliches go on & on..
> 
> ...these things have nothing to do wth being a man at all, we just make up stuff as we go along. Manhood - can it really be defined ? Probably not... but something it should include are the following.......
> 1.Integrity
> 2. Character
> 3. Courage
> 4. Responsibity for actions
> 5. to not be envious
> 6. Sacrifice
> 7. Willingness to submit to Authority
> 8. Having self control.. ...
> 
> ...not the cliches.


----------



## EleGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm sitting here with my oldest college bound son, he was intregued by the thread title here -looking over my computer screen , and had a few ideas of his own.... These are his words about what is messing men up in todays society...


Very good thoughts from you son. I wish him well in his college career. It's an exciting time for a young person. My son is a Junior in college.


----------



## morituri

SimplyAmorous I must commend you and your husband on having such a fine and exemplary son. His comments speak volumes about his maturity. You should be very proud of him.


----------



## Syrum

Men never stopped being men. Real men are still real men. Someone could ask where all the real women went too. But real women are still real women.

Any body who has values, cherishes other people, knows the value of a good spouse and how to appreciate real things in life, how to treat others without getting stomped on, and who doesn't compromise their integrity for money or attention is a real man/ woman.

If men think they have it bad, then they should change it, since men still, politically and financially speaking control the world.

They own the means of production, they own the media etc, and they set the standards in society.

I really do believe the best way forward to would be to value people, and to stop putting masculinity on a pedestal along with traditional male roles, and to learn to value women as people. Stop teaching young girls their greatest asset is how they look and that their sexuality is of utmost importance. Teach men to really value women, and women to value themselves.

Then instead of idolizing stars who treat women with no respect, like toss away items, and instead of valuing $$$ we could teach our sons to idolize real men, with courage and values. And teach children that there is nothing wrong with the feminine, that traditional women's roles hold a lot of value, and are just as important as mens roles.
You can't spend half your time putting down women, and women's roles and then wonder why women don't want them any more.


----------



## AFEH

FrankKissel said:


> I'm afraid this simply is not correct, and any anthropologist will tell you so. There's no such thing as an inherent breadwinner. In the human race's first, and most primitive, societies (and therefore those closest to our inherent nature) there was an equal division of labor among the sexes. And it wasn't simply men hunted and women gathered. In fact, BOTH hunted and BOTH gathered.
> 
> Now, in the many centuries since have people been socially conditioned to see the ma as breadwinner? Sure. But that's conditioning, not human nature. And, relatively speaking, it's a recent phenomena. Slowly, but surely, that conditioning will change as society changes - and society always changes.
> You are free to hold firm to outdated notions about gender roles. Certainly you won't be alone, and if it works for you, that's cool. But most people, especially the young, recognize that men and women are fully capable of providing for themselves, or one another, if they so choose. There's absolutely nothing in our nature that defines one sex as "breadwinner" and the other as "homemaker."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. You couldn't be further off base. You have not a clue how the human species developed.


----------



## AFEH

morituri said:


> As agents of masculinity and femininity IT IS OUR DUTY as men and women to understand - NOT WHINE - one another and come to terms because our species deems it so.
> 
> So STOP whining. My 2.5 year old granddaughter, with whom I've played with all evening, has shown much more wisdom and maturity that the whole lot of you put together.


:rofl: what are you on?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EleGirl said:


> Very good thoughts from you son. I wish him well in his college career. It's an exciting time for a young person. My son is a Junior in college.





morituri said:


> SimplyAmorous I must commend you and your husband on having such a fine and exemplary son. His comments speak volumes about his maturity. You should be very proud of him.


Appreciate your words here , He is a fine young man, couldn't ask for a better son......amazes me many times over. I know the way he has turned out has much to do with the fine friends he has & who he chooses to surround himself with in life . He is a Worship/Youth Leader wanna Be Youth Paster taking Phyche at a simple State College who has a big heart for youth. He is the most joyful person we know. He is very well loved at our Church, even though I am the local heretic- makes me look good anyway - his dream job would be a Guidance Counselor. 

He LOVES the fact I challenge his mind & make him think, I keep him grounded - Says that has done more for him than any Strict christian mom could ever do. 

He also felt that breadwinning is - in his words last night, "*ingrained*" in men (for the most part, obviously many have lost thier way) -why they have more physical strength over women (that testosterone again) -and feels, (for the most part again), it has been ingrained in women to be the Nurturers in this life, caregivers -they are just darn better at it! 

My son is obviously more on the Traditionalist side of life, though he wouldn't mind if his wife made more $ than him- he has no problem with women working, he said the old feminism was ALL GOOD (equal rights in all things enjoyable in this country)....but he admits what he sees in college troubles him a great deal...by those who call themselves feminists. The way some of them talk, feel, and have no need of a man. 

He feels success , manhood has absolutely nothing to do with the how much $$ we earn (this does the devaluing of other people when we use such measures) , but should a man be working ...... Hell Yeah! Low income or high, it has to do with how you live, what example you set - I guess a man's legacy will tell the story.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> Appreciate your words here , He is a fine young man, couldn't ask for a better son......amazes me many times over. I know the way he has turned out has much to do with the fine friends he has & who he chooses to surround himself with in life . He is a Worship/Youth Leader wanna Be Youth Paster taking Phyche at a simple State College who has a big heart for youth. He is the most joyful person we know. He is very well loved at our Church, even though I am the local heretic- makes me look good anyway - his dream job would be a Guidance Counselor.
> 
> He LOVES the fact I challenge his mind & make him think, I keep him grounded - Says that has done more for him than any Strict christian mom could ever do.
> 
> He also felt that breadwinning is - in his words last night, "*ingrained*" in men (for the most part, obviously many have lost thier way) -why they have more physical strength over women (that testosterone again) -and feels, (for the most part again), it has been ingrained in women to be the Nurturers in this life, caregivers -they are just darn better at it!
> 
> * My son is obviously more on the Traditionalist side of life, though he wouldn't mind if his wife made more $ than him- he has no problem with women working, he said the old feminism was ALL GOOD (equal rights in all things enjoyable in this country)....but he admits what he sees in college troubles him a great deal...by those who call themselves feminists. The way some of them talk, feel, and have no need of a man. *
> 
> He feels success , manhood has absolutely nothing to do with the how much $$ we earn (this does the devaluing of other people when we use such measures) , but should a man be working ...... Hell Yeah! Low income or high, it has to do with how you live, what example you set - I guess a man's legacy will tell the story.


That’s how it is here in Portugal. They don’t actually use terms like feminism, feminist etc. because it’s been tainted over the past few decades by female sexist extremists. Feminists will never understand this, they are blind to it or in denial.

It’s very interesting talking to both men and women here. Their baseline is “humanity” and their strategy, goal is “equal rights for all”. It is a so very much more collaborative (men and women) way of going about things than the divisive ways of modern day feminism. And because of that men and women here pull together to change things and things don’t become so polarised, us vs. them type of thing.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve met some exceptionally bright, fiery, strong willed, committed women in these equal rights movements. But it’s massively different here because you get the feeling you work on these things as men and women together to improve the situations for all.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> Appreciate your words here , He is a fine young man, couldn't ask for a better son......amazes me many times over. I know the way he has turned out has much to do with the fine friends he has & who he chooses to surround himself with in life . He is a Worship/Youth Leader wanna Be Youth Paster taking Phyche at a simple State College who has a big heart for youth. He is the most joyful person we know. He is very well loved at our Church, even though I am the local heretic- makes me look good anyway - his dream job would be a Guidance Counselor.
> 
> He LOVES the fact I challenge his mind & make him think, I keep him grounded - Says that has done more for him than any Strict christian mom could ever do.
> 
> *He also felt that breadwinning is - in his words last night, "ingrained" in men (for the most part, obviously many have lost thier way) -why they have more physical strength over women (that testosterone again) -and feels, (for the most part again), it has been ingrained in women to be the Nurturers in this life, caregivers -they are just darn better at it! *
> 
> My son is obviously more on the Traditionalist side of life, though he wouldn't mind if his wife made more $ than him- he has no problem with women working, he said the old feminism was ALL GOOD (equal rights in all things enjoyable in this country)....but he admits what he sees in college troubles him a great deal...by those who call themselves feminists. The way some of them talk, feel, and have no need of a man.
> 
> He feels success , manhood has absolutely nothing to do with the how much $$ we earn (this does the devaluing of other people when we use such measures) , but should a man be working ...... Hell Yeah! Low income or high, it has to do with how you live, what example you set - I guess a man's legacy will tell the story.


You may like to get him the book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0752846191/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top. It’ll explain where his “ingrained” (instinctual, natural) feelings come from and how they came about.


----------



## FrankKissel

AFEH said:


> Wow. You couldn't be further off base. You have not a clue how the human species developed.


An excellent, thorough, fact-based and well-thought reply. Cause, you know, if you say it's true, it must be.
Here's a thought: Go educate yourself on the gender roles in hunter-gatherer societies and then get back to us with your vast wisdom.

Until then, stick to whining about women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm sitting here with my oldest college bound son, he was intregued by the thread title here -looking over my computer screen , and had a few ideas of his own.... These are his words about what is messing men up in todays society...


SA,

You've made my day by showing us the thoughts of your son on manhood. I set out as a father to a son to try to somehow teach the prinicples that my own dad never discussed, and I would only hope he could describe being a man like this. Thank you.


----------



## AFEH

FrankKissel said:


> An excellent, thorough, fact-based and well-thought reply. Cause, you know, if you say it's true, it must be.
> Here's a thought: *Go educate yourself on the gender roles in hunter-gatherer societies* and then get back to us with your vast wisdom.
> 
> Until then, stick to whining about women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did that a long while back, it's how I know you are so far off base.



Difficult for women to do what you reckon they did when they’re always pregnant, lactating and nursing.



It’s why it takes two very, exceptionally different types of human beings to procreate etc., but even men with a feminist agenda (just how deep does this stuff run I wonder) refuse to recognise that.


----------



## FrankKissel

AFEH said:


> Did that a long while back, it's how I know you are so far off base.
> 
> 
> 
> Difficult for women to do what you reckon they did when they’re always pregnant, lactating and nursing.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s why it takes two very, exceptionally different types of human beings to procreate etc., but even men with a feminist agenda (just how deep does this stuff run I wonder) refuse to recognise that.


Oh well, what chance do volumes of anthropological research stand against one who believes women in early cultures were always pregnant and those who were nursing were incapable of physical labor.

Choose ignorance, if you desire. What's that they say about leading a horse to water?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I Know

AFEH said:


> That’s how it is here in Portugal. They don’t actually use terms like feminism, feminist etc. because it’s been tainted over the past few decades by female sexist extremists. Feminists will never understand this, they are blind to it or in denial.
> 
> It’s very interesting talking to both men and women here. Their baseline is “humanity” and their strategy, goal is “equal rights for Alll”. It is a so very much more collaborative (men and women) way of going about things than the divisive ways of modern day feminism. And because of that men and women here pull together to change things and things don’t become so polarised, us vs. them type of thing.
> .


Interesting comment AFEH. I wish the feminist movement in USA was like that. USA's is more like "men bad. Women good". Instead of looking for equal rights and oppty, the feminist movement here is more about punishing manhood than boosting womanhood. They play a win-lose game here instead of a win-win: getting women ahead by making men lose. Instead of getting society ahead by making equal oppty work for everyone.
They don't understand that women also suffer when men lose and vice-versa.


----------



## trey69

morituri said:


> Why do I get the feeling that the OP's rant against men is a justification for her to cheat on her husband?


Oh you did it now! :rofl:


----------



## Scannerguard

TheRealBrightEyes,

Well, I am not sure what SA meant by her reply but I still stand by my opinion that women nowadays have set the bar too high for men (as a generalization, please, since we are on them).

I mean honestly, in a way, taht was what my divorce was all about. . .I could not meet her standards, I left, and I wish her well (really! that's not snide!), whether that's finding someone who meets her standards or going through life alone. Even SA saw her come on here and rant on all the ways I let her down.

(and it's true. . .I did. . . so why torture her, right? She's free of me now and again, I don't mean anything snide by that, don't misinterpret my tone)

It's funny. . .I have dated women who think I am a prince, because their husbands were chronically unemployed, alcoholic and abused them.

Of course, I am a Prince to them. . .yet, I do understand, even for myself, the standard must be at least "average" or I feel funny about being made out to be a Prince just because I have a job and don't lay a hand on them. 

Again, to reinterate, I think Grandma's standards were a bit low and I think modern women have set the bar too high. But we can agree to disagree.

If RJ thinks she can do better, as we all know, in the US, it's a free country. Proceed to divorce and start shopping.

I don't really recommend that value set, I think divorce is hell and I would do anything to prevent, yes. . .even suggest lowering her standards a bit. . .but divorce is out there and readily available in the U S of A.

Why should RJ's husband live with RJ when she silently thinks he's a loser and a slack? There's that perspective too.


----------



## Scannerguard

BTW, I hate Rush too. . .I consider myself a pretty good debator.

Put me on Neutral turf with that Neo-liberal (he's not a Conservative), and I'll take him out in a debate.


----------



## Enchantment

SimplyAmorous said:


> He feels success , manhood has absolutely nothing to do with the how much $$ we earn (this does the devaluing of other people when we use such measures) , but should a man be working ...... Hell Yeah! Low income or high, it has to do with how you live, what example you set - I guess a man's legacy will tell the story.


Ah, well, SA, what can I say. You have one great young MAN there and that's a wonderful testament to you and your husband. Now, if we could just clone that fine young man of yours. 

It sounds like he has a calling in his life and is willing to pursue it, and I think that he may end up having quite a wonderful legacy that he leaves behind. As a counselor, he will be able to use his knowledge and wisdom and be that role model that so many young men need.


----------



## EleGirl

So let me get this down....

A married woman should do all the housework, have children and raise them. If she works outside the home she still should do all of that.

A man who brings in the bread or not should not have to do anything around the house. The only thing he should do to be involved in raising children is to interact on the level of teaching them and guiding them.

Any woman who expects her husband to help with housework and child raising, even if she is the sole income or major income provider, is a feminazi... 

Have I got down the extreme that is being portrayed here?


----------



## EleGirl

Trenton said:


> Funny you should say this...because just yesterday while at work (all women office) we were talking about men and one of my co-worker's issues with her husband. I gave her advice and her response to me was, "Your advice doesn't count because you expect too much from men."
> 
> I was confused and asked, "What does that mean?"
> 
> She went on to explain to me that I think all men are like my husbands and caring, go out of their way, adoring towards their wives.
> 
> Really? That's too high expectations of husbands? I found myself backtracking and trying to make my husband look bad...saying things like, well it might look like all roses and wine but he can be a pain in the butt too! What do you want to know?!
> 
> She ended the conversation by leaving me speechless when she said, "Exactly. You have too high expectations."


So what are too high expections of men? Can anyone list what the too high ones are?


----------



## RandomDude

Trenton said:


> Funny you should say this...because just yesterday while at work (all women office) we were talking about men and one of my co-worker's issues with her husband. I gave her advice and her response to me was, "Your advice doesn't count because you expect too much from men."
> 
> I was confused and asked, "What does that mean?"
> 
> She went on to explain to me that I think all men are like my husbands and caring, go out of their way, adoring towards their wives.
> 
> Really? That's too high expectations of husbands? I found myself backtracking and trying to make my husband look bad...saying things like, well it might look like all roses and wine but he can be a pain in the butt too! What do you want to know?!
> 
> She ended the conversation by leaving me speechless when she said, "Exactly. You have too high expectations."


Jebus... you went through what the missus went through too in some regards... WTF is with that? I don't know what to say really. She protects her man and loses her womanhood which is rather stupid if it's all "anti-man" BS


----------



## that_girl

High expectations? LOL

I guess if it's too hard to be real and work your ass off and love your wife, then I can see how that would be too high of a bar to reach.



How random! And here I thought women these days don't expect anything from men and that was the problem. My husband has his balls attached to his body and it's sexy as hell 

I think bitter people judge and make these comments. I have a good man. Sure, he's made some decisions that weren't the best, but he's a good man  I treat him as such and he treats me as the good woman I am


----------



## that_girl

Trenton, those are women who have never been with a good man 

Their bars are low because that's all they can get.


----------



## that_girl

That's what I'm saying. 

Everyone says, "Don't settle" but then they do. lol.

I didn't settle.


----------



## LovesHerMan

We teach people how to treat us. You are a good educator.


----------



## EleGirl

Trenton said:


> We're in a small office with all of our desks in the same small room within a few feet of one another so every time I'm on the phone or do something they ask me questions. I've been on the phone with my husband and my one co-worker will actually squeeze my shoulders and tell me to be nice to my husband...wtf?
> 
> To my co-workers' to high expectations means the following:
> 
> 1. Expecting them to participate with child care, child arrangements if you're both working (my husband resisted this at first but has completely come around)
> 
> 2. Having them treat you like they are deeply in love with you by doing things that show they think about you. (Co-workers constantly tell me I don't appreciate all the romantic and otherwise things my husband does for me such as purchase a new chair for me at work and surprise me with it after I complained my butt hurt or when he showed up at work with the invitations he designed and printed for free for the organization)
> 
> 3. Lovey Dovey and not afraid to show it. (Co-workers were floored when my husband called and asked that we meet for a cell phone lunch which we scheduled and enjoyed together, not to mention all the "I love you mores..." which have them rolling their eyes but make me giggle)
> 
> 4. THE BIGGEST ONE FOR ME is expecting him to be home when he says he's going to be. (This is apparently unreasonable to them and I should get over it and be glad he's in love with me and not cheating on me...what?! what?!)


Na, your expectations are not too high. Theirs are too low.

But, if a woman does have a man who meets those expectations she should thank her lucky starts and be so very appreciative back to him.. it sounds like you are.


----------



## that_girl

The funny/ironic thing, is that someone like me (who had a crap load of losers in my life) who gets someone like hubs (kick ass man...has his issues, but has his priorities straight)...we question things and wait for thigns to go bad!

That's my problem :lol: Trust. I think, am I allowed to have this? Is this for real? It's hard to trust when all I've known (from dad to bfs) is losers.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> So what are too high expections of men? Can anyone list what the too high ones are?


None. If women are supposed to look like Barbie, mother like Theresa and screw like Jenna, then men should look like Ken, father like Cosby and screw like Ron.


----------



## that_girl

Please don't look like Ken. He looks so sissy and has no penis.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> It's my problem toooooo!!!
> 
> I think...it can't last forever. Yeah, sure, we're still majorly in love but that'll fade. When my boobs sag a bit more or my body changes or the tides come in. I feel like I can't relax always have to be on the look out for it to start to fall apart.
> 
> Do I think...it's been 17 years since we've been together and my body has already begun to change, has changed plenty and he keeps saying I'm getting more beautiful not uglier...nooooo...instead I wait for the other shoe to drop or convince myself he's just a really good liar.
> 
> I have expectations but I'm afraid everything that is good is too good to be true or maybe that I don't deserve it? Perhaps a combo of both.
> 
> Damn. Insecurities. Expectations. Resentments. Miscommunication.


We are a lot alike!  My therapist warns me of this ebcause it's sabotage. I have put myself in check and deal with the triggers and Hubs is good at being affectionate to show me reassurance. I am insecure, but I hold no resentments. that's my last hurdle...something I've ALWAYS had...so I know it's not about Hubs.

Even when he's being awesome, I think, "What is he guilty of?"

 Dude. Seriously delusional.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> We're in a small office with all of our desks in the same small room within a few feet of one another so every time I'm on the phone or do something they ask me questions. I've been on the phone with my husband and my one co-worker will actually squeeze my shoulders and tell me to be nice to my husband...wtf?
> 
> To my co-workers' to high expectations means the following:
> 
> 1. Expecting them to participate with child care, child arrangements if you're both working (my husband resisted this at first but has completely come around)
> 
> 2. Having them treat you like they are deeply in love with you by doing things that show they think about you. (Co-workers constantly tell me I don't appreciate all the romantic and otherwise things my husband does for me such as purchase a new chair for me at work and surprise me with it after I complained my butt hurt or when he showed up at work with the invitations he designed and printed for free for the organization)
> 
> 3. Lovey Dovey and not afraid to show it. (Co-workers were floored when my husband called and asked that we meet for a cell phone lunch which we scheduled and enjoyed together, not to mention all the "I love you mores..." which have them rolling their eyes but make me giggle)
> 
> 4. THE BIGGEST ONE FOR ME is expecting him to be home when he says he's going to be. (This is apparently unreasonable to them and I should get over it and be glad he's in love with me and not cheating on me...what?! what?!)


I worked with a woman many years ago who had MS and 3 kids. She actually spent her lunch break in the company kitchen prepping for the family dinner. I'm talking she would bring fresh green beans in a bag to work and during her 30 minutes she would cut off the ends of the beans. She would take chicken out of a bag and pound it on the counter and then put it back in a Ziploc. Every day she would do some variation of this. 
Her husband thought that any unpaid work was women's work. Childcare, dinner, cleaning, laundry, etc. She thought he was A HELL OF A CATCH because he made $40k a year. Un-fing-believable.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

that_girl said:


> Please don't look like Ken. He looks so sissy and has no penis.


Okay, bad example. Johnny?


----------



## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I worked with a woman many years ago who had MS and 3 kids. She actually spent her lunch break in the company kitchen prepping for the family dinner. I'm talking she would bring fresh green beans in a bag to work and during her 30 minutes she would cut off the ends of the beans. She would take chicken out of a bag and pound it on the counter and then put it back in a Ziploc. Every day she would do some variation of this.
> Her husband thought that any unpaid work was women's work. Childcare, dinner, cleaning, laundry, etc. She thought he was A HELL OF A CATCH because he made $40k a year. Un-fing-believable.


:rofl: Holy sheep! :rofl:


----------



## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Okay, bad example. Johnny?


As in Depp?

rawr.

And, Dean, you are SO RIGHT!

Today I am doing ok with things. It's a work in progress. At least I'm getting therapy for it. And yea, when the kiddo wakes up from her nap, we're going to the park!

Sex has never been an issues with us. lol It's awesome in itself.

Last night I had his fave drink ready when he got home...rum and coke. He was a happy man.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Eeeeep!!!


Yup. I DO thank my lucky stars that my husband isn't like that. Not even close but then again, I have high standards as does he. 

I don't see anything wrong with having high standards. I am frankly shocked when I read that women should lower theirs in an effort to find a partner. Why? Why lower something that is integral to who you are? Will that bring happiness? Is settling ever a good option? No. I read some of the stories here from women who say "I never really loved him" or "He was a kind man" and low and behold years later they are cheating, planning an exit or resenting the heck out of him. 

Having high standards/expectations to me is a good thing. Having said that, you better be prepared to uphold their standards as well. It goes both ways.


----------



## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yup. I DO thank my lucky stars that my husband isn't like that. Not even close but then again, I have high standards as does he.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with having high standards. I am frankly shocked when I read that women should lower theirs in an effort to find a partner. Why? Why lower something that is integral to who you are? Will that bring happiness? Is settling ever a good option? No. I read some of the stories here from women who say "I never really loved him" or "He was a kind man" and low and behold years later they are cheating, planning an exit or resenting the heck out of him.
> 
> Having high standards/expectations to me is a good thing. Having said that, you better be prepared to uphold their standards as well. It goes both ways.


Kindness wasn't really on my list 

Responsible, honest, respectful, free-thinker, educated, edgy, knows what he wants, treats people the way he wants to be treated, and can crack my ass in bed :smthumbup: After being with so many sissies in bed, I wanted someone who could rock my world. Passion brought us together (through the arts, history, and sex) and love is keeping us together.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Which leads me to this random thought: when I was in third grade I still remember reading out loud the words "Then they would do it" in social studies (it had nothing to do with actual sex of course) and laughing hysterically and then the class started laughing and then the teacher sent in the Principal to ask what was so funny. Seriously, it wasn't obvious what was so funny, did they really need me to say it?!


Ha ha!

Don't know why but for me the term "tickling the ivories" always sounded sexual to me. I burst out laughing when I was around 12 and my piano teacher said that. He couldn't understand what I was laughing about. God was he mad. It sounded too much like "tickling the ovaries" and yeah THAT sounds sexual.


----------



## CallaLily

Wow can't believe this thread is still going.


----------



## Bottled Up

CallaLily said:


> Wow can't believe this thread is still going.


Haha, I was just about to post something similar... but was also going to emphasize how the _tone_ of the thread has seemingly morphed into something more refreshing to read.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bottled Up said:


> Haha, I was just about to post something similar... but was also going to emphasize how the _tone_ of the thread has seemingly morphed into something more refreshing to read.


Indeed. The title was pretty offensive. The responses even more so. I think men haven't stopped being men at all. Thankfully not the ones I know at least.


----------



## that_girl

I didn't even read this post until today.

I just laughed when someone said women have too high of expectations for men.

:rofl:

I have high expectations for anyone in my life, same as they do for me. If you set the bar, people will reach it. I'm not saying be a total betch about it, but be firm in what you want and need and lead by example. 

Oh and regarding men, just wait for a good one


----------



## I Know

Trenton said:


> To my co-workers' to high expectations means the following:
> 
> 1. Expecting them to participate with child care, child arrangements if you're both working (my husband resisted this at first but has completely come around)
> 
> 2. Having them treat you like they are deeply in love with you by doing things that show they think about you. (Co-workers constantly tell me I don't appreciate all the romantic and otherwise things my husband does for me such as purchase a new chair for me at work and surprise me with it after I complained my butt hurt or when he showed up at work with the invitations he designed and printed for free for the organization)
> 
> 3. Lovey Dovey and not afraid to show it. (Co-workers were floored when my husband called and asked that we meet for a cell phone lunch which we scheduled and enjoyed together, not to mention all the "I love you mores..." which have them rolling their eyes but make me giggle)
> 
> 4. THE BIGGEST ONE FOR ME is expecting him to be home when he says he's going to be. (This is apparently unreasonable to them and I should get over it and be glad he's in love with me and not cheating on me...what?! what?!)


Those are incredibly high expectations. Guess what? When you assert that you expect these standards to be met, your man will meet them. A lot of people get hurt just because they will not demand that people treat them the way they need to be treated. 

Takes a certain amount of confidence to do what you do. And now you get the rewards for expecting that your hubs will treat you well. 

Cool how that works is it not?


----------



## morituri

I think that for most couples, the loss of the husband's job is a major stressor for both, much more so than when the wife looses her job. 

A wife supporting her husband after he has lost his job, is more likely to be resentful because even in today's 'enlightened' times, it is the man who is still expected to be the major income provider. Simply put, a husband without a job is not attractive to a wife. 

SAHD have a long ways to go before they even get a quarter of the respect that SAHM receive.


----------



## EleGirl

Many couples today have the agreement that both spouses will work. When one of the spouses stops working without mutal agreement it's not acceptable.

I have known men who get very upset when their wives make that choice without mutal agreement. 

I also have known quite a few women to work because they can earn more than their husbands and the husband stays home with kids... out of mutual agreement.

This thread is not about SAHD's in which the couple decides that the husband will stay home to take care of the children. This thread is about men who unilaterally decide to not bring in an income. 

Why it has turned into an anti-female thread I have no idea.


----------



## I Know

EleGirl said:


> Many couples today have the agreement that both spouses will work. *When one of the spouses stops working without mutal agreement it's not acceptable.*


:iagree: Major Unilateral decisions like that have consequences for both people. It just breed all kinds of mistrust.


----------



## morituri

EleGirl said:


> Many couples today have the agreement that both spouses will work. When one of the spouses stops working without mutal agreement it's not acceptable.
> 
> I have known men who get very upset when their wives make that choice without mutal agreement.
> 
> I also have known quite a few women to work because they can earn more than their husbands and the husband stays home with kids... out of mutual agreement.


Sadly that is more anecdotal than empirical. The reality is that western societies still place a heavy burden on men to be breadwinners. That's why you have many men who are workaholics.



EleGirl said:


> Why it has turned into an anti-female thread I have no idea.


Anti-feminist does not equate into anti-female anymore than saying that being anti-conservative is being anti-american or anti-liberal is being a racist.

The fact is that many men find themselves in the same situation with their wives that the OP finds herself in with her husband.


----------



## CandieGirl

Sad but true. Many men have no honor anymore. They have no problem at all letting their women worry about everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

CandieGirl said:


> Sad but true. Many men have no honor anymore. They have no problem at all letting their women worry about everything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As there are more and more women out there today who feel entitled to not work and not contribute anything to the family. It's not gender specific.


----------



## FrankKissel

There have always been lazy men. And there have always been lazy women.

And, I suspect, there have always been people who've griped about how much better it was back in the good old days
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CandieGirl

morituri said:


> As there are more and more women out there today who feel entitled to not work and not contribute anything to the family. It's not gender specific.


Traditionally men were the main breadwinners, and women stayed home taking care of kids. So yes, MOST men took care of their fams!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl

It's like they just don't care anymore - meh - who cares if my wife works her fingers to the bone while I play video games and drink.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mephisto

Perhaps it should be a discussion about where our honour has gone? A man is no longer as good as his word, a handshake is no longer enough to seal a deal and too many people cannot meet your eyes when meeting you..... men and women have taken to the low road. 

Where did society go wrong?


----------



## CandieGirl

Actually, society makes me sick these days...it's a me-me world. Rude people are rampant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

People argue about what constitutes inappropriate behavior. My view: if your spouse was watching and would be upset - that makes it inappropriate. 


UOTE=*Dean*;542837]Agree handshake doesn't seal the deal anymore.

Need a 1 page contract and then 10 pages to define what "IS" means.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## annagarret

reallly this is still going on.........I LOVE MEN.................YUM


----------



## Runs like Dog

Or as the anesthesiologist during one of my son's births quipped as we all listened to the sound of an undrugged woman down the hall scream like she was being torn in half with grappling hooks...."So? Does THAT sound natural to you??"


----------



## that_girl

My husband is a man of his word...even if i don't like what he says LOL. I love that about him. He says what he means and means what he says.


----------



## annagarret

Men..........yum.....yum.............


----------



## FirstYearDown

annagarret said:


> Men..........yum.....yum.............


:lol::lol::lol: Cute.

*My* man is delicious. Don't care to know about the others.


----------



## EleGirl

Runs like Dog said:


> Or as the anesthesiologist during one of my son's births quipped as we all listened to the sound of an undrugged woman down the hall scream like she was being torn in half with grappling hooks...."So? Does THAT sound natural to you??"


Not sure I get the point? Can you clarify?


----------



## tacoma

R.J. said:


> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????



I believe it`s you women who are ruining men.

Nowdays you baby and coddle your sons until they are 30 years old while ignoring your husbands warnings that you`re destroying them as men.

So they grow up and if the miracle happens and they actually get married and leave the family home they figure they`ll just replace their mommies with their wives and then we have the situation you describe in the OP.

Y`all are reaping what you`ve sown.

I`ll get some popcorn now.


----------



## that_girl

I totally agree with you, Tacoma. Not ALL mothers of sons, but a vast majority.

My father was one of them. He was a louse. My father....but a louse. And my grandmother is to blame. She babied him until his 40s. Got him out of trouble, bailed him out of jail, let him move in and out of her house, etc.


----------



## Runs like Dog

You assign yourself a role or a persona. You're a 'feminist' or a whathaveyou and in the end how the rest of the world views it is radically different than what you thought. Often it appears flat out crazy.


----------



## Enchantment

tacoma said:


> I believe it`s you women who are ruining men.
> 
> Nowdays you baby and coddle your sons until they are 30 years old while ignoring your husbands warnings that you`re destroying them as men.
> 
> So they grow up and if the miracle happens and they actually get married and leave the family home they figure they`ll just replace their mommies with their wives and then we have the situation you describe in the OP.
> 
> Y`all are reaping what you`ve sown.
> 
> I`ll get some popcorn now.



Abraham Lincoln had a great quote: "“You have to do your own growing no matter how tall your grandfather was.”

At some point, as an adult, every excuse that you have that you think "holds you back" - such as how you were raised, your mother, your father, lack thereof, whatever - is just that - an excuse.

So, if men have indeed stopped being men (which I dispute, at least for the men I have mostly encountered in my life), then it is men themselves that are holding themselves back and down. Nobody else can do it. We are all responsible for ourselves, and can overcome many things if we persevere and refuse to live with excuses.


----------



## tacoma

Enchantment said:


> Abraham Lincoln had a great quote: "“You have to do your own growing no matter how tall your grandfather was.”
> 
> At some point, as an adult, every excuse that you have that you think "holds you back" - such as how you were raised, your mother, your father, lack thereof, whatever - is just that - an excuse.
> 
> So, if men have indeed stop being men (which I dispute for the men I have mostly encountered in my life), then it is men themselves that are holding themselves back and down. Nobody else can do it. We are all responsible for ourselves, and can overcome many things if we perservere and don't look for excuses.


I agree completely but if you aren't taught those values or consider them false excuses are perfectly acceptable to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I think it is a HUGE Boost if these things start in the home though, a foundation laid -if you will. Generally we bring some of our Upbringing to our future marriages or we need to learn to UNDO some bad influences. 

Some of us learn from our parents mistakes though too, some are strong enough to say to themselves .... SH**, I don' want to end up like them!

*Peer Pressure *-going along with the crowd, need to teach our kids to never do this, be bold, be real. Be different. Our homes need to be that safe place to land no matter what comes against them. Speak up when we disagree. Choose friends wisely. 

And we need to give our kids *REAL CONSEQUENCES*....that may even HURT them....so they can learn a lesson and have it accually STICK...

...and Learn healthy *Boundaries *with other people...we do not ask for things we have no right to ask for or ever EXPECT things that we did not work for. 

Learn what being Thankful is all about (I've had my kids write thank you notes before), being Grateful for what one has. Not everyone is so blessed. And giving when you can give because you are grateful for what you have. 

If they destruct another's property, I feel the KID ought to do the work to fix it, not Mom & Dad paying off the homeowner, that is too easy. Bailing out is wrong. ...... I live in the country, it is kinda common to hear how young boys will go out & sledgehammer mail boxes, I always APPLAUD the parents who will make that BRAT go knock on the homeowners door & apologize & have him do the accual work to FIX what he destroyed- and until he does, all privelidges are lost. Let them spend an afternoon getting their hands dirty, let them sweat. Really humbles the Juvenile delinquent-as he needs! You think he would do that again.....I doubt it ! 

These parents who bail them out...... they are doing them & society a great disservice, setting them up to believe they can do things and get away with it. Like they are entitled to special treatment. 

Kids need to learn to SAVE for what they want also...we shouldn't buy them everything they want or cause thier buddy has one....teach them the value of a $1....this society prides itself on "easy credit", some of these people can now go out & buy new cars -they keep them like a garbage dump, only to have them repossessed months later. 

With my kids, until they can handle the responsiility to take care of something, they will not get it. And if you loose it, break it, leave it somewhere, it is ON THEM. I generally refuse to make a special trip, I won't buy another. That way they learn to take care of what they have , appriecate it and not be forgetful. 


Lawyers even hurt this world, gets the idiots off....this breeds irresponsibiity and a Lust for easy gain. Some cases should be thrown out of court...that woman who spilled hot coffee on her TWAT, she was an idiot, she shouldn't have got a dime. The loss of common sense.

Politicall correctness too - Poeple are too offended -without realizing there is some truth in what others are saying, we can't just make everyone else "feel good" all the time, it waters down our values even. 

Near worship of the the rich & famous, who are rarely an example of anything good , how the majority are in & out of bed with each new co-star, pick up the latest Peoples mag. The sacredness of Marraige, even sex has been blown to hell and we wonder why we have lost our way.

It is our values. They've been trampled on.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

SimplyAmorous said:


> Lawyers even hurt this world, gets the idiots off....this breeds irresponsibiity and a Lust for easy gain. Some cases should be thrown out of court...that woman who spilled hot coffee on her TWAT, she was an idiot, she shouldn't have got a dime. The loss of common sense.


The jury awarded her over a million. The judge reduced the award to around 100K. With juries and judges like that it's no wonder the lawyers bring ridiculous suits.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> Some cases should be thrown out of court...that woman who spilled hot coffee on her TWAT, she was an idiot, she shouldn't have got a dime. The loss of common sense.


I had to get up from my computer I was laughing so hard at this. You caught me off guard with your choice of words SA ... in a good way.

I don't think men have stopped being men. It's simply a matter of getting more men to decide to start.


----------



## Kobo

This thread is TAM in a nutshell


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous, we were very poor as youngsters. I had this rickety and rusty old bike but determined to go out on it. An open topped car went by and a lad shouted out from the back “Get off and milk it!”. His dad stopped the car and waited for me to catch up. Then he said to his son “Now tell him again what you said”.

I thought that a fabulous lesson for a father to teach a son.


----------



## Runs like Dog

VermisciousKnid said:


> The jury awarded her over a million. The judge reduced the award to around 100K. With juries and judges like that it's no wonder the lawyers bring ridiculous suits.


Why? Because the restaurant and health code stipulates a max temperature for such things. It turned out the fast food joint had the coffee heated to almost 190 degrees. That's going to scald you with second and third degree burns in 2 or 3 seconds. Here's what you need to do - boil a pot a water, and just before it really starts to bubble - pour it in your lap.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

AFEH said:


> SimplyAmorous, we were very poor as youngsters. I had this rickety and rusty old bike but determined to go out on it. An open topped car went by and a lad shouted out from the back “Get off and milk it!”. His dad stopped the car and waited for me to catch up. Then he said to his son “Now tell him again what you said”.
> 
> I thought that a fabulous lesson for a father to teach a son.


AFEH, that's a good one. When I was quite small (I don't even remember how old), I accompanied my mother to the grocery store and grabbed a little pink rubber ball and stuck it in my pocket unnoticed. At home, my mom noticed the ball, realized where it came from, and took me right back to the store to return it and apologize to the store manager. I remember the shame and embarrassment, and it was GREAT lesson. How many parents would avoid that scene out of the misplaced fear of 'damaging' their little one's self-esteem? 

Self-esteem comes from living up to high standards.


----------



## uphillbattle

VermisciousKnid said:


> Self-esteem comes from living up to high standards.


:iagree: 
This is one of the biggest things that society has lost sight of.


----------



## chillymorn

Runs like Dog said:


> Why? Because the restaurant and health code stipulates a max temperature for such things. It turned out the fast food joint had the coffee heated to almost 190 degrees. That's going to scald you with second and third degree burns in 2 or 3 seconds. Here's what you need to do - boil a pot a water, and just before it really starts to bubble - pour it in your lap.


coffee twat lady never got a dime!!!!! google it.


----------



## Lon

If you guys are talking about Liebeck vs McDonalds, I will chime in (because after using a simple tool such as google and wikipedia realized public perception of the case has long ago taken its own course that diverge from the facts of the incident).

I really hate it when people refer to it as a frivolous case, or accuse her lawyers of being ambulance chasers.

Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## FrankKissel

Oh these kids today, with their baggy pants and their hippity-hop music .... 

You guys realize, of course, that everything you're complaining about here is pretty much the same crap your parents said about you and your generation 30-40 years ago. What with your long hair, your free love, your Beatles and Stones.

Every generation seems to think the next generation (or one after that) will be the ruination of civilization. 

You may now return to yelling at those kids for running across your lawn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

VermisciousKnid said:


> AFEH, that's a good one. When I was quite small (I don't even remember how old), I accompanied my mother to the grocery store and grabbed a little pink rubber ball and stuck it in my pocket unnoticed. At home, my mom noticed the ball, realized where it came from, and took me right back to the store to return it and apologize to the store manager. I remember the shame and embarrassment, and it was GREAT lesson. How many parents would avoid that scene out of the misplaced fear of 'damaging' their little one's self-esteem?
> 
> Self-esteem comes from living up to high standards.


Yes sons are moulded by their mothers as well as their fathers and both the macro and micro societies in which they live. My mother caught me with something I’d stolen as a paper boy from the newsagent. Had to work 3 months for nothing as punishment. Tough love just can’t beat it to get a boy back on the straight and narrow.


----------



## that_girl

FrankKissel said:


> Oh these kids today, with their baggy pants and their hippity-hop music ....
> 
> You guys realize, of course, that everything you're complaining about here is pretty much the same crap your parents said about you and your generation 30-40 years ago. What with your long hair, your free love, your Beatles and Stones.
> 
> Every generation seems to think the next generation (or one after that) will be the ruination of civilization.
> 
> You may now return to yelling at those kids for running across your lawn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


However, most of the previous generations grew up at some point.

This one hardly does.


----------



## FrankKissel

that_girl said:


> However, most of the previous generations grew up at some point.
> 
> This one hardly does.


Which one is "this" one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

FrankKissel said:


> Which one is "this" one?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm thinking of my brother's age group.

He's 22 now.

A real winner.


----------



## Jamison

AFEH said:


> Yes sons are moulded by their mothers as well as their fathers and both the macro and micro societies in which they live. My mother caught me with something I’d stolen as a paper boy from the newsagent. Had to work 3 months for nothing as punishment. Tough love just can’t beat it to get a boy back on the straight and narrow.


:iagree:

I think mothers and fathers set the stage for how their kids will be as adults. If you didn't have the best role models and you are aware of it and how it may effect your relationships then as adults, its up to you to fix it. 

I have seen many adults who didn't have the best role models or the best home life period when they were kids. They were fully aware of it, their spouse even tried to show/tell them and they still refused to try and meet their spouse half way by making a few changes within. To me those are the ones who do not want to change and the marriage is not that important for them to do so.


----------



## FrankKissel

that_girl said:


> I'm thinking of my brother's age group.
> 
> He's 22 now.
> 
> A real winner.


Tens of thousands of people of that age group have made great sacrifices to serve (and in some cases died) their country over the past decade. 
Just saying ... don't paint with such a broad brush. Every generation has had it's share of twits. And every generation *****es about the ones that follow their own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VermisciousKnid

FrenchFry said:


> The company had temperature specifications around 20 degrees below boiling, where home coffee usually is around 130F. She suffered third degree burns on 16% of her body including genitals requiring skin grafts. This incident occured after.multiple incidents of burns from the company. She ended up with a bit over half a million mostly in punitive damages due to the companies continued negligence.
> 
> This society may be overly litigous, this incident was absolutely not the case.


Just because multiple people do a dumb thing doesn't mean that it should become the standard. That's least common denominator thinking. Yeah, my grandparents drank tepid, 130 degree Sanka, but should they dictate how everyone else drinks their coffee? Traditionally, you boil water and pour it in the mug. It starts at 212F and cools down to the point where you are comfortable drinking it. Why isn't that the expectation of what coffee should be? Why do we have to idiot proof everything? It's not a product that's actually defective, like a coffee cup that splits open and dumps the scalding liquid in your lap.

How about if I sue Henckels because its knives are too sharp? I was used to my dull el-cheapo knives and when I was drying the new Henckels (always hand wash nice knives) I sliced a bit of my fingertip off. True story. The world can be a dangerous place if you don't have your wits about you. 

Reminds me of when I used to referee youth soccer. One parent complained that I didn't call fouls enough. I said, "What plays are you talking about?" She said, "All the times my son fell down." I said, "It's a foul when they are intentionally tripped or pushed down. They might also trip over their own feet, the feet of someone who reached the ball first, or the ball. Just because someone falls doesn't mean that someone has committed a foul. It's soccer, falling down is part of the game." Lawyers believe that any adverse outcome should be pinned on someone else if possible.

By the way, Keurig brewers are set to brew at 192F. You can adjust 5 degrees down from that.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

Lon said:


> If you guys are talking about Liebeck vs McDonalds, I will chime in (because after using a simple tool such as google and wikipedia realized public perception of the case has long ago taken its own course that diverge from the facts of the incident).
> 
> I really hate it when people refer to it as a frivolous case, or accuse her lawyers of being ambulance chasers.
> 
> Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Note that the UK court reached the opposite conclusion:

"Thus, if McDonald’s were going to avoid the risk of injury by a deep thickness burn they would have had to have served tea and coffee at between 55 C and 60 C. But tea ought to be brewed with boiling water if it is to give its best flavour and coffee ought to be brewed at between 85 C and 95 C. Further, people generally like to allow a hot drink to cool to the temperature they prefer. Accordingly, I have no doubt that tea and coffee served at between 55 C and 60 C would not have been acceptable to McDonald's customers. Indeed, on the evidence, I find that the public want to be able to buy tea and coffee served hot, that is to say at a temperature of at least 65 C, even though they know (as I think they must be taken to do for the purposes of answering issues (1) and (2)) that there is a risk of a scalding injury if the drink is spilled."[16]"

The UK court got it right.

Also, Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote a unanimous US 7th Circuit Court of Appeals opinion affirming dismissal of a similar lawsuit against coffeemaker manufacturer Bunn-O-Matic. The opinion noted that hot coffee (179 °F (82 °C) in this case) is not "unreasonably dangerous."


----------



## VermisciousKnid

Goes back to my previous assertion: Just because someone is harmed doesn't mean that someone else is at fault.


----------



## Yardman

Yep, men aren't men any more. 

Who replaced that vacuum spot?

Probably women in pant suits telling men they ain't men any more.

And vibrators, the new woman's bff. Dang if they could just make vibrators hold a job, take care of kids, and do the household chores....

Maybe in the next generation women will have it all figured out. Until then then they will just b!tch about men not being manly enough in between boob jobs, lipo suction, lip enhancement, and facelifts. Of course those are done to meet the horrible male standards of being beautiful, not the womans own vanity.


----------



## Yardman

Trenton, please tell how justice scales apply to weather.


----------



## Yardman

Yep, I see how that applies to law suits.

Weather analogy sucks/fails.

After last years bitter winter, this one has been mild so far. I atribute that to the law of averages, not the scales of justice. BBBBBUUUUTTTT WINTER ain't over yet.... The lakes aren't froze over yet.

Oh, keep the long hair. I thought about responding to your post about the subject, but decided it was a womans' discussion and stayed out. You have a lovely long face and the short haircut would cause it to appear horse like. Not saying you look like a horse, but a short haircut would/could cause that effect.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Anyone here besides me ever sue a doctor? It's pretty hard to do. If you think cops have a blue wall of silence, doctors are worse. And my wife is a non practicing pit bull arm breaker of a lawyer who once caused a traffic accident and then proceeded to browbeat the cop WHO SAW IT HAPPEN into charging the other person with the accident. Suing a doctor is extremely tough, we've tried it and were only partially successful.


----------



## Yardman

Yeah, read that before, good opinion.

It does suck here when the lakes aren't froze, then it snows hardcore...lake effect

I was thinking and joking with locals and we all agreed. If this global warming, we like it.


----------



## that_girl

Ironic that the vibrator was invented by a man. Hmmm...

Vibrator (sex toy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Yardman

Weird thing about climate predictions, they change just as the world does, but quicker. Back in the 1970's many scientists thought the world was heading for another ice age. Now they say we will melt.

Good thing they weren't around when the continents were splitting up and the dinos died. Yes, there are things humans do to adversely affect the enviroment. Other than a new power source the only way is to reduce the number of humans on the Earth.

OK, now I took this thread off to another tangent, let's get back on topic....

...Men aren't acting manly anymore
Why aren't we men?
Last time I checked I still have man equipment
So the question must concern or actions.

How are men supposed to act?
Sometimes I get confused, then I think of grandpa...and it's clear again.


----------



## Yardman

that_girl said:


> Ironic that the vibrator was invented by a man. Hmmm...
> 
> Vibrator (sex toy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Yes it is!!! LOL

Did a woman invent the blue pills?


----------



## Yardman

Oh, early on only male Drs owned vibs.

Men sent their women there, then word of mouth spread about the "theraputic benefits" of vibs. LOL


----------



## Yardman

I think men and women have complained about each other since the dawn of time. In my mind it is a Ying Yang thing

Men are still men and women are still women. Societies defination changes of the role genders play, or should play, andthe Ying Yang ball keeps rolling along.

Trentons idea of scales makes sence in this. when relations get top heavy {good boob job joke here but ain't gong there), things flip over and correct themselves.

SAHM and SAHD are often devaluated in our society, but a good nanny is a find. Just my observation


----------



## DTO

I cannot say why. This list of complaints does not apply to anyone in my family (large) or my friends (many). So I have no basis to comment.

I've only known one guy who was content to let his wife support the family (ex in-law), but even he was smart enough to be passive and not try to call all the shots.

I dunno if you are extrapolating to men in general based on your husband in particular. My ex-wife was a complete a-hole who mostly tried to manipulate and bait-and-switch me, so I know it's easy to fall into that pattern of thinking. But, it's not healthy and thinking like that will impact how you view and deal with everyone around you.


----------



## Halien

Runs like Dog said:


> Anyone here besides me ever sue a doctor? It's pretty hard to do. If you think cops have a blue wall of silence, doctors are worse. And my wife is a non practicing pit bull arm breaker of a lawyer who once caused a traffic accident and then proceeded to browbeat the cop WHO SAW IT HAPPEN into charging the other person with the accident. Suing a doctor is extremely tough, we've tried it and were only partially successful.


Well, since the thread is totally lost, I'll say that my parents tried to sue a doctor on my behalf, when I was twelve. Went in to the hosital for appendicitis. Went home a few days later and things got dicey. My appendix had already ruptured (can you say massive abdominal infection?). Lost consciousness while my mom was working, and stayed so for almost a month. Oddly, I remembered waking briefly while a nurse was bringing a cake into the room for the nations's bicentennial (for the parents), then another time when it was storming, and my grandmother had brought in an elder from her people. I woke briefly as he was chanting (a native american healing call). With lightening flashing, and the old man in traditional dress, I was sure that I had already passed on. My parents said that I was in a coma due to stopping breathing when I first got sick, so they didn't believe me when I said that I had awoken twice. When my parents tried to sue, they found out that the doctor was dying of cancer. He passed before the first hearing. Oddly, I also got hepatitis in that backwoods hospital.


----------



## AFEH

Enchantment said:


> Abraham Lincoln had a great quote: "“You have to do your own growing no matter how tall your grandfather was.”
> 
> At some point, as an adult, every excuse that you have that you think "holds you back" - such as how you were raised, your mother, your father, lack thereof, whatever - is just that - an excuse.
> 
> So, if men have indeed stopped being men (which I dispute, at least for the men I have mostly encountered in my life), then it is men themselves that are holding themselves back and down. Nobody else can do it. We are all responsible for ourselves, and can overcome many things if we persevere and refuse to live with excuses.


I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with you. I agree that at some age a male takes on total responsibility for his life, both the successes and failures. I think for some it happens at an early age, others at a late age and others all ages in-between. For example my mother took half from my very first wage packet, I was sixteen at the time. So from that time on I had “financial responsibility” kind of hoisted on me. I did feel hard done by at the time but looking back it was the right thing for my parents to do. Financial responsibility can come to others at age 25 and beyond.

So from a very young age I learnt to pay my way. And I carried that on all the way through my life. My parents never owed anyone a penny and they always kept their expenditure lower than their income. If they wanted something they saved money to purchase it. I didn’t follow that one as I borrowed to pay for my homes. So as far as financial responsibility is concerned both my mother and father were exceptionally good examples and in that way teachers, the very best way to teach!


But within the context of financial responsibility I do wonder about today’s parents and the micro and macro societies boys and young men actually live in. Just what examples are there of good fiscal management and responsibility?

I think in many areas bad financial management has become the norm. And it’s basically down to people buying what they don’t have the money to pay for! Some of them are in massive amounts of personal debt, even those in their 50s who should be well on their way to a financially healthy retirement are carrying personal debts in the £10,000s and they wont be paying off their mortgage, if they ever do, until they are 65. And if they do get into trouble here in the UK the government will step in and help them out.



Fiscal management? The banks have got it wrong, governments have got it wrong, Europe and the US have got it wrong!!! The latter three do things they can’t afford to do and they keep on doing them (and it’s heading for disaster).


----------



## trey69

Sometimes there are spin offs on other threads. I'm surprised no one has started a thread about "When did women stop being women." And before someone asks, No I will not be that thread starter. I'm simply saying, I'm surprised someone else hasn't.


----------



## AFEH

trey69 said:


> Sometimes there are spin offs on other threads. I'm surprised no one has started a thread about "When did women stop being women." And before someone asks, No I will not be that thread starter. I'm simply saying, I'm surprised someone else hasn't.


That’s easy. It’s the women who try to be the same as men instead of complimentary to men. No need for a dedicated thread on that one


----------



## chillymorn

AFEH said:


> That’s easy. It’s the women who try to be the same as men instead of complimentary to men. No need for a dedicated thread on that one


LOL so true.


----------



## Halien

AFEH said:


> I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with you. I agree that at some age a male takes on total responsibility for his life, both the successes and failures. I think for some it happens at an early age, others at a late age and others all ages in-between. For example my mother took half from my very first wage packet, I was sixteen at the time. So from that time on I had “financial responsibility” kind of hoisted on me. I did feel hard done by at the time but looking back it was the right thing for my parents to do. Financial responsibility can come to others at age 25 and beyond.


I don't think that many of the men who never step up to the plate when it comes to financial responsibilities look at it as a series of excuses as to why they never have. Maybe this is what you are saying. These men often just don't make a firm connection that it is their responsibility to be a man, and provide for his own, instead of waiting for society to make things happen for him.

My mom was recently reminiscing about how I tried to take care of her when she divorced, even though I was five at the time. From an early age, she taught us by example that it was wrong to expect help from others without first trying to provide for yourself. She loved fresh fruit, so I took my red wagon to the nearby fields where the farmers harvested watermelons, cantaloupes, and tomatoes, and usually asked the first english speaking person I could find if I could buy some. They often laughed and just gave them away. Got the money to pay from using that same little wagon to collect bottles from under the homes of nearby relatives, native american families who seemed to go on a spending spree every time they got their monthly stipend. I was almost deathly afraid of speaking to complete strangers, but later worked for some of those farmers, selling their produce on the local farmers market.


----------



## Runs like Dog

That's why all OBGYNs now classify themselves as practitioners in "High Risk Pregnancies". It brings the insurance costs down to between 7-17% of billables. On the whole though there's no dearth of OBGYNs so the costs of doing business can't be that bad. Just practice defensive test-happy medicine and jack the costs through the ceiling and manage your patient's expectations. 

I remember talking to an oncologist once who mentioned "You know there's not a lot of exact science about this. It's more like cooking."

I also had a conversation with an ortho surgeon who told me "I would not have me operate on that area unless the problem was life threatening." And he was the head MD for an NBA team. 

So you have be a little bit jaundice eyed about medical miracles. And sometimes, despite everyone's best efforts, horrible things happen.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Runs like Dog said:


> That's why all OBGYNs now classify themselves as practitioners in "High Risk Pregnancies". It brings the insurance costs down to between 7-17% of billables. On the whole though there's no dearth of OBGYNs so the costs of doing business can't be that bad. Just practice defensive test-happy medicine and jack the costs through the ceiling and manage your patient's expectations.
> 
> I remember talking to an oncologist once who mentioned "You know there's not a lot of exact science about this. It's more like cooking."
> 
> I also had a conversation with an ortho surgeon who told me "I would not have me operate on that area unless the problem was life threatening." And he was the head MD for an NBA team.
> 
> So you have be a little bit jaundice eyed about medical miracles. And sometimes, despite everyone's best efforts, horrible things happen.


My brother, who is a doctor, jokes that "that is why they call it practicing medicine." Everyone's body is different. People react to different things in different ways, and you don't or can't always know ahead of time.


----------



## AFEH

Halien said:


> I don't think that many of the men who never step up to the plate when it comes to financial responsibilities look at it as a series of excuses as to why they never have. Maybe this is what you are saying. These men often just don't make a firm connection that it is their responsibility to be a man, and provide for his own, instead of waiting for society to make things happen for him.
> 
> My mom was recently reminiscing about how I tried to take care of her when she divorced, even though I was five at the time. From an early age, she taught us by example that it was wrong to expect help from others without first trying to provide for yourself. She loved fresh fruit, so I took my red wagon to the nearby fields where the farmers harvested watermelons, cantaloupes, and tomatoes, and usually asked the first english speaking person I could find if I could buy some. They often laughed and just gave them away. Got the money to pay from using that same little wagon to collect bottles from under the homes of nearby relatives, native american families who seemed to go on a spending spree every time they got their monthly stipend. I was almost deathly afraid of speaking to complete strangers, but later worked for some of those farmers, selling their produce on the local farmers market.


I’m beginning to see just how very subjective these things are. I think there are two distinctions (1) Our instinctual, innate feelings of what being a man is all about and (2) Societies views of what being a man is all about.

Society is the micro society of the family and peer group and the macro society of the country in which a man lives. For example it’s manly in some tribes (societies) to kill the enemy and eat them. So the society we are born into has a lot to do with what we think being a man is all about.



As far as fiscal management is concerned being my age I can think on great changes over the decades in which I’ve lived. For example my first car cost £600. I didn’t have the cash so by law I had to pay a third deposit in cash and the remainder off in accordance with a hire purchase agreement. It was either that or get a loan from the bank with agreed repayments. Now it is exceptionally different, all done with a piece of plastic and no agreed repayment terms! Just pay the minimum and you’ll be ok! Don’t worry about it all adding up.

My first bank account (in the 60s) was closed by the bank three months after opening it. Why? When I went to see them it was because I obviously could not manage my money, I’d gone overdrawn by the equivalent of £10 today!

So the society in which I grew up in had far more strict fiscal management laws than today’s society. In essence, governments AND banks enforced good fiscal management on their clients and citizens. Not so today! In my day (ha) no way could I get a mortgage more than 2.75 times my income, no way and it was an 80% mortgage at that. So I HAD to save for a deposit if I wanted to own my home. These days it’s still “self certified” mortgages (never was in my day, I had to present wage slips) and they can be 8 times income! It’s been absolute stupidity on behalf of the banks AND governments.


My innate feelings of being a man is to take absolute personal responsibility for my life, including my failures. Stuff that goes wrong in my life isn’t always my fault, I know that. Team members can let you down and sometimes seriously. But it is my responsibility to discover what role I played in the failure and most certainly my responsibility to recover from it.


----------



## skip76

Syrum said:


> Feminism in no way had anything to do with men not being real men.
> All the real men I have known, had no issue with feminism.
> 
> I believe that men and women are quite lost, and it has nothing to do with women having opportunities, being able to earn money and being paid a fair days pay for a fair days work. What reasonable person wouldn't want those things?
> 
> Part of the problem the feminine is not valued, traditional women's roles are not valued. So women and men are only valuing the masculine and it's put men and women in competition with each other. So rather then work together complimenting each other, they are competing, and some men become lazy, and many others give up.
> 
> As soon as men value women for what they can bring to the table and value them as equally as they value the masculine, then it will be seen as something to strive for.
> 
> Personally I love masculine, take charge, men of their word, won't take crap, caring, loving, hard working men. But being a real man means being fair and balanced. Not taking advantage of and squashing people in a less fortunate position or keeping them down because you afraid of them. Men who don't support women having access to opportunity and equity are afraid and that's not manly or sexy.



all that sounds great in words but women are not happier today. we need to get rid of this political correct crap. men and women are different. i am better at things than women. women are better at other things than me. women want different things than me. we need to embrace our diferences instead of looking for ways we ar getting screwed. i don't need to lower the standards for firemen, police or our armed forces so women can feel included. my grandma was a wonderful lady and she was happy too. crazy how that old birds one goal in life was her family, no matter what. she was the glue. that was her job and she died feeling very accomplished in her life as she should. i cant say the same for the women in my life now, and two are CEO's. they are miserable and will tell you all about it but they are stuck with the decisions they made long ago. one told me, sure i am a CEO but that won't matter on my death bed, all that wil matter is i don't know who my kids are?


----------



## that_girl

I am happy  I am happy because I am a woman and don't feel "weak" or "held back" just because I like being treated like a woman or being feminine.

 I like being the softer sex.


----------



## skip76

R.J. said:


> @AFEH, I'm definitely not going to feed into your ridiculousness because clearly you have serious issues outside of possibly being a deadbeat husband. You wouldn't have to run miles from me because if you were in my presence, I probably wouldn't even acknowledge your existence in the first place.
> 
> Please don't make anymore posts on this thread. This is a serious topic involving adults. I'd appreciate it if you were to discuss the topic at hand and not attack my character (which you know NOTHING about) or simply go to the men's lounge and try to hook up with some of them. That is if you're man enough to recognize a real man and hope that he won't "…run a mile from you."



i think i figured out why your husband is a deadbeat


----------



## nice777guy

I blame Oprah.


----------



## that_girl

nice777guy said:


> I blame Oprah.


:rofl:

Right?


----------



## that_girl

*Dean* said:


> *I blame the teachers *:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> 
> Got ya


The teachers? Psh. not me! I don't treat my boys like girls 

So....in your face......


----------



## Deejo

I've tried so hard to resist, but my resolve has been broken ...

I'm the man... - YouTube


----------



## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> The teachers? Psh. not me! I don't treat my boys like girls
> 
> So....in your face......


Just don't spank the boys, teach! They'd probably like it!!!


----------



## Scannerguard

Deejo,

That's cool. . .but I am the Guy on the Buffalo:

Guy On A Buffalo - Episode 1 (Bears, Indians & Such) - YouTube

Episode 2 speaks well of how real men handle infants and such. . .


----------



## Scannerguard

Trenton,

I see you replied to me awhile ago (wow, these threads march on despite my absence, don't they? well of coruse they do  ).

I am only suggesting perhaps, lowering your standards a little. . .just a little. . .and yes, I think Grandma's standards were a little too low back in the day.

A man would have been a Prince if he changed a diaper back then.

As far as finding this "happy medium" between Grandma and Granddaughter. . . I leave that to the Ladies Lounge.

But I'll help:

A. Does he show affection?
B. Does he keep a job down?
C. Does he keep his appearance up mostly, even if he put on a little gut?
D. Does he chip in with chores around the house and, if not, at least handle the outdoor chores?
E. Does he fulfil his manly duties in the bedroom?
F. Is he not a spendthrift?

Rate each on a scale of 1 to 10. Add up. . .if your man scores above 40, he should be a keeper. 

That';s the problem with you women. . .you don't have an appreciation for the scientific method/analysis and how you can logistically index these kinds of questions.

Dont' worry. . .I'm here to help you with math and science.


----------



## AFEH

^ Magic stuff. I call it counting your blessings. Us men are consistent in these things because we're far more emotionally stable. It's a fact.


----------



## Bottled Up

If you want to actually get scientific, it is true that men and women's brains process information differently.

It is NOT a fact however that men are "more emotionally stable"... studies have actually shown that women's brains are far superior at processing and interpreting emotion quickly. Get your "facts" straight.


----------



## AFEH

Bottled Up said:


> If you want to actually get scientific, it is true that men and women's brains process information differently.
> 
> It is NOT a fact however that men are "more emotionally stable"... studies have actually shown that women's brains are far superior at processing and interpreting emotion quickly. Get your "facts" straight.


Hmmm. Having gone through many times of the month, probably about 300 I totally disagree with that. I say this light heartedly, it’s what women have and us men suffer from! Sure you are far better at understanding and processing your emotions, most especially when younger, men catch up in later life.

But you need to be because you have so very many more of them and you have them so very often. Relative to men that is. And that’ll be why women are experts with theirs, and others' emotions.


----------



## Deejo

Scannerguard said:


> Deejo,
> 
> That's cool. . .but I am the Guy on the Buffalo:
> 
> Guy On A Buffalo - Episode 1 (Bears, Indians & Such) - YouTube
> 
> Episode 2 speaks well of how real men handle infants and such. . .


F*cking Epic ... Man on a Buffalo gets it done. Whatever 'it' may be.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

R.J. said:


> What is becoming of our men today?


Women.




> Why are more and more men accepting their wives to be breadwinner and home maker while they sit and reap the benefits?


Us real men don't. But if my wife doesn't want to work and wants to stay home, then that is her responsibility. Mine is to bring home the bacon.

If a wife of mine works, then we both will come home and take care of the house.

And after having a wife that wanted to stay home out of pure laziness, I honored her wishes, and she ends up cheating....I can say I'll never have another stay at home wife. If she is going to cheat, then by god she is going to have an income too so that the divorce is pretty much a wash.




> Why does it seem as if many men no longer have pride or back bone?


Divorce. And how the laws are slanted in favor of women. A woman can stay at home, cheat, and still end up with spousal support. So most men nowadays say "f*** that"

Might also have to do with the fact that over the years, our POS government keeps creating new taxes, and takes more and more of the family income where it now takes two incomes to live decently.




> I remember when a man refused to accept money from his wife because he was short. He would work 2 jobs before he had his wife taking over his role in the household.


Is that what you want? Men to take care of you?




> Nowadays, it seems as if more men are content with being "slave masters." They sit on their tails and give out orders while their wives does it all.


I sure don't see many men doing this. I just expect my wife to be an equal partner. If she doesn't work, then she cleans the house, cooks the dinner, all on the times she isn't sitting on the couch watching soap operas.

If she has a job, then we both take care of the house equally.




> AND to top it off, have an audacity to complain about his "lacking" sex life when she's too resentful and or tired to give out.


If she stays at home, while the man goes out and works, she has nothing to be tired and resentful of.

If she works too and the man refuses to do any housework, then you have a point.




> I'm sick of guys thinking that they deserve a promotion just for the sake of being a man. NOOOO. It doesn't work that way. Husband or not, you must earn your position (PERIOD). You have to show that you will make great choices for the greater good of the family and lead the pack successfully before you get to stamp everything in ink. You must confirm that when the going gets tough, you get tougher and will successfully guide the family through the toughtest of storms. You don't just get to make all the final decisions just because you’re the husband.



Methinks you are finding the wrong men. Or are just a misandrist in general.




> I hear the same thing from my husband. He claims I don't "allow" him to be a man. I make all of the money, he hasn't done absolutely anything to try to bring in more income on his behalf to support the family, every final decision he makes seems to only benefit him, yet I'm suppose to sit there and knowingly get burned by allowing him to make a decision that I won't benefit from at all just because he's my husband. Ok, believe that if you want to.


Now you know what its like to have a stay at home wife.




> Seriously, what's going on guys???? Is it the food you're eating or what????


Whats going on? Payback for some men I suppose.

Such misandry and double standards in this post


----------



## chillymorn

Dexter Morgan said:


> Women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Us real men don't. But if my wife doesn't want to work and wants to stay home, then that is her responsibility. Mine is to bring home the bacon.
> 
> If a wife of mine works, then we both will come home and take care of the house.
> 
> And after having a wife that wanted to stay home out of pure laziness, I honored her wishes, and she ends up cheating....I can say I'll never have another stay at home wife. If she is going to cheat, then by god she is going to have an income too so that the divorce is pretty much a wash.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Divorce. And how the laws are slanted in favor of women. A woman can stay at home, cheat, and still end up with spousal support. So most men nowadays say "f*** that"
> 
> Might also have to do with the fact that over the years, our POS government keeps creating new taxes, and takes more and more of the family income where it now takes two incomes to live decently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that what you want? Men to take care of you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I sure don't see many men doing this. I just expect my wife to be an equal partner. If she doesn't work, then she cleans the house, cooks the dinner, all on the times she isn't sitting on the couch watching soap operas.
> 
> If she has a job, then we both take care of the house equally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she stays at home, while the man goes out and works, she has nothing to be tired and resentful of.
> 
> If she works too and the man refuses to do any housework, then you have a point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks you are finding the wrong men. Or are just a misandrist in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you know what its like to have a stay at home wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whats going on? Payback for some men I suppose.
> 
> Such misandry and double standards in this post


:iagree:


----------



## mikeydread1982

Just your average case of women blaming all men for their poor decision making. Lol. I kid, slightly. A man will only do as much as you let him get away with. Although, us real men, regardless of what women may do, still handle business, but a lot of those other guys will leech if you let them. So stop it!!


----------



## AFEH

mikeydread1982 said:


> Just your average case of women blaming all men for their poor decision making. Lol. I kid, slightly. A man will only do as much as you let him get away with. Although, us real men, regardless of what women may do, still handle business, but a lot of those other guys will leech if you let them. So stop it!!


Why some women don't get that is beyond me.


----------



## chillymorn

Men have not stoped being men.

the world has changed and the role of a man needs to be updated.
kinda like a job reclasification.

and the same can be said of women.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FrenchFry said:


> SimplyAmorous: To clear up an urban legend-
> 
> The coffee incident happened to a 79 passenger who was not driving, nor was the vehicle in motion, she simply took off the lid. The company had temperature specifications around 20 degrees below boiling, where home coffee usually is around 130F. She suffered third degree burns on 16% of her body including genitals requiring skin grafts. This incident occured after.multiple incidents of burns from the company. She ended up with a bit over half a million mostly in punitive damages due to the companies continued negligence.
> 
> This society may be overly litigous, this incident was absolutely not the case.
> 
> OOOP, RUNSWITHDOG BEAT ME TO IT!


Ok, I needed correction, I never looked up the whole story - it is just always the 1st thing that comes to my mind that APPEARED very frivolous. I stand corrected. If all that was going on, she HAD cause. And McDonalds was being negligent.

But there are situations where I feel people should not be able to sue & win huge judgements -most especially if they are careless & irresponsible to begin with.  I guess I just don't see everyone as "victims". It seems to happen too often, to the point of a Good Sameritan fearing to even help someone today -lest they get sued ! 

If I learn someone is sue happy, I cut them off . I once invited this new family down the road to my house (I did this much too quick mind you, trying to be friendly -it was premature).... their daughter & mine became friends on the bus, she was coming over alot, thought I would get to know the parents. 

... I learned real quick they didn't watch their kids at all, we sat under my gazebo while they played , their son had a shunt in his head (surgery on his brain), he was a walking destruction path, dragging things out of my house, hyper, mouthy, this was completely normal to them...they thought nothing of him jumping on my trampoline, while they sat there telling me how they want to sue his teacher for mistreating the boy, how they could sue this person, that person. 

That was it, I got up, I made sure that kid was not doing anything to hurt himself cause...well, they might sue me ! I had to keep him controlled, my yard, my rules - till they left. After that lovely conversation , only the girl was allowed back. The mother got mad at me even, wanting to know when Johnny could come play again. I know she found me rude and unfriendly after that. 

But you do what you have to do in a world where anyone can bring a lawsuit against you, even for their own lack of responsibility.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Statistically about half of all civil suits never make it to trial. Half of the remainder are decided in favor of the defendant. 75% of awards are $100,000 or less. Half of THEM are reduced on appeal. 

Look at it this way. If you screwed so badly that it made it past discovery past hearing past a trial and defeated on appeal such that you're penalized in the millions of dollars then your name officially became a verb and you're a god damned dangerous loser. You utterly suck at being you.


----------



## anotherguy

Warning: Off topic!



Dexter Morgan said:


> ...Might also have to do with the fact that over the years, our POS government keeps creating new taxes, and takes more and more of the family income where it now takes two incomes to live decently.


Dexter - your post is funny.. I agree with most of it sorta - but I have to call you on this one. Your total tax burden, in your lifetime has gone down considerably, and I dont mean a little. Here.. just for starters are the historical income tax rates. What year were you born?

Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(If you want inflation adjusted rates you can get them here: http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal&adjusted-20110909.pdf )

What has gone up, and 'way up' is the so-called standard of living. Keeping up with the jones is keeping you poor. Not 'the government'. Its your much bigger house and more luxurious car(s) and everything else. You spend far more than your parents ever did, I'll wager - and compared to your grand parents you are off the charts.

Your tax burden is smaller by a long way - that is in fact one reason (of many) the deficit is so big.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Well it's certainly true that the 99% are the 1% of the world. But I'm not sure that's the point. I live in the first world so I have first world problems.


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## Dexter Morgan

anotherguy said:


> Warning: Off topic!
> 
> 
> 
> Dexter - your post is funny.. I agree with most of it sorta - but I have to call you on this one. Your total tax burden, in your lifetime has gone down considerably, and I dont mean a little. Here.. just for starters are the historical income tax rates. What year were you born?
> 
> Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> (If you want inflation adjusted rates you can get them here: http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal&adjusted-20110909.pdf )
> 
> What has gone up, and 'way up' is the so-called standard of living. Keeping up with the jones is keeping you poor. Not 'the government'. Its your much bigger house and more luxurious car(s) and everything else. You spend far more than your parents ever did, I'll wager - and compared to your grand parents you are off the charts.
> 
> Your tax burden is smaller by a long way - that is in fact one reason (of many) the deficit is so big.


Those stats are back when we didn't have all these other taxes tied on. Income taxes have went down, but a whole lot of new and abundant ways to tax Americans has increased. Taxes didn't go down, they just got broken out into more smaller taxes.
(and you can throw the wartime taxes out the window, they are inflated)

But this isn't really about taxes, just my small little rant on it.


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## Scannerguard

Trenton,

What a kind thing to say.

Look. . .I used the "Draftee" vs. "Volunteer" analogy to just make a point. . .like I said there are flaws in the analogy.

No, I wasn't' drafted.

I know I am a good father (well, for the most part). . .I just admit I lack enthusiasm and love of the duty.

I am not a picture-taking Dad (I am not sure I see any reason to commemorate this part of my life that's simply been more work than pleasure and full of drudgery), but I do love my kids with all of my heart. All so different and neat. I could go on and on and on about them.

But I am sure my lack of enthusiam contributed to my marriage's demise. . .I am certain of it. It must have been hard to be married to me from that standpoint.

You know. . .now that I am 40+, I think now, NOW, I could start. . .have baby 1. . .at 28 though, crap no. . .wasn't ready, wasn't enthusiastic, was scared, was depressed.

This is why I have postulated that older men and younger women should be paired up. . .they just seem matched for the busienss side of marriage. Of coruse, that went over here in teh Lady's Lounge like a bull in a china shop.

Consquently though. . .older women and younger men should be paired up. . .those 2 groups just want to get their rocks off and are sexual matches. 

I remember when I was 20 years old, a woman from the lab I worked in at college wanted me, who was 36 - put out all the signals. I was too chicken-crap to go for it. . .but she was divorced, kids, fixed. . .honestly would have been a perfect fling and probably helped me grow up in a way.

So. . .please continue to take my theories under advisement - may be something in it for you


----------



## AFEH

^ Become a picture taking Dad! And make certain you are in the frame as well. Be very careful about how you think about this stage of your life. You have just the one so enjoy every minute that you can. When you take a picture you are “living in the now” and that’s the way to live a happy life.

Be careful with that time of yours, treasure and value and never wish it’d pass sooner or wish it away. Because as sure as eggs are eggs that calendar year that seems so long now becomes but a few months in time when you get to my age. Time quite literally zooms by the older you get just as my aged Aunts told me it would.

So become a picture taking dad because when you’re in your 60s or 70s believe you me you WILL want to look back on your life and those photos and videos are the way to do it.


----------



## sadinsalem

Well, being a man, I can say I still do the things that i find fun, hiking/atv'ing, ect ect. But in all fairness, men for years have been the breadwinners, but now since a lot of women overall have moved up, those he man - worker dad/ stay home mommy lines have blurred. There is no reason a dad cannot be a stay at home dad and the wife being the breadwinner IF that is acceptable to both parties.


----------



## AFEH

sadinsalem said:


> Well, being a man, I can say I still do the things that i find fun, hiking/atv'ing, ect ect. But in all fairness, men for years have been the breadwinners, but now since a lot of women overall have moved up, those he man - worker dad/ stay home mommy lines have blurred. There is no reason a dad cannot be a stay at home dad and the wife being the breadwinner IF that is acceptable to both parties.


I think that looks “true” in the prior discussions and outset. It’s very much the “modern” thing to do and I think in part it’s about “compliance”. In that the man is complying with his partner’s wishes and the woman is complying with what she believes to be true about feminism. I actually think they are both naive, but that’s me.

But does it I wonder stand the test of time? Personally I don’t think it does. I think the man in some ways becomes feminised through taking care of the babies and toddlers, doing the shopping, cooking, cleaning etc. And I think he becomes feminised because he is no longer out there hunting and skinning and farming in order to provide for his woman and children.

And I also think there’s a danger of the woman becoming masculanised (ha a new word?) in that she is no longer undertaking her roles in the home and with her children which make her feel feminine, she is out there hunting and skinning and farming to provide for her family. But I think it goes in further than masculating the woman. In that I think she gets immensely, massively sad when she wakes up one day and realises she’s missed her kids growing up and that she hasn’t bonded with her children as she was meant to. And when she realises and knows for certain she cannot turn the clock she goes into a deep and long depression.

Of course if the man has feminine traits and the woman has masculine traits then of course they are better off switching roles and I’m certain they’ll both be happy. Right?


----------



## Mephisto

So the problem is that there can only be so much masculinity in the world, as the women usurp the masculinity, the men must be emasculated to compensate and therefore even the balance.


----------



## chillymorn

Mephisto said:


> So the problem is that there can only be so much masculinity in the world, as the women usurp the masculinity, the men must be emasculated to compensate and therefore even the balance.


since you figured it out we will start with you....

should we remove your left nut or your right nut. to blance the masculinity of the world.:rofl:


----------



## that_girl

chillymorn said:


> since you figured it out we will start with you....
> 
> should we remove your left nut or your right nut. to blance the masculinity of the world.:rofl:


:rofl:


----------



## Jamison

The OP has yet to come back in a good while. I wonder if shes ok and how things are going?


----------



## uphillbattle

chillymorn said:


> since you figured it out we will start with you....
> 
> should we remove your left nut or your right nut. to blance the masculinity of the world.:rofl:


:rofl:


----------



## Scannerguard

AFEH,'

There is probably some truth as applied to my situation - both parties depressed and wondering how they ended up here.

I know I should be taking pictures. . .I know I should be enjoying this time. . .beleive me. . .I hear those lectures all the time from friends and family.

"Oh, enjoy them while their young."

"Oh, life is what happens to you while your planning."

Sounds so Dr. Phil + Oprah.

However, suggest to any friends and family they take the kids for an hour or so. . .and they look around like you hit them up for money and glance their watch and gee, look. . .at the time. . . how can I scadaddle out of here? I gotta go. . .

Oh gosh, that advice is MEANT for you, not ME. I did my time.

(LOL)

So. . .I have learned to take that New Age advice with a grain of salt over time.

I personally think the army analogy works for me. . .my latest deployment is a puppy. . .that will pass soon and by the time the youngest gets to kindergarden, I'll may be able to be transferred back stateside a bit to lessen my tour of duty in Iraq.

Things will get better. . .

(notice my need to masculinize child-rearing. . .ha, ha, probably something Freudian in there. . .what can I say? I am wiping butts, snotty noses, bathing, cooking and cleaning in an apron?)


----------



## chillymorn

right now it seem like so much..........wiping bums and noses.


when you look back it will seem like it flew by. and you will have healthy sons and daughters to be part of your family. and you will be part of theres and hopefully you will be able to give them advice to steer clear of some of the pit falls you experianced in life.

Thats what life is....... its not always pretty but it better than the alternative......................DEATH


----------



## chillymorn

*Dean* said:


> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by that_girl
> 
> I just love sex with my husband. He's so yummy! I know that sometimes people have issues that cause sex to take a bad turn...but...I have always desired him. Sex with him is amazing and I let him know I think so.
> 
> I attacked him this morning after my shower and we had a quickie ...with 2 minutes to spare before his alarm went off
> 
> Good way to wake up!!
> 
> End Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if a woman like what's up above could create a "Real Man"


that would be a real HAPPY man


----------



## Mephisto

chillymorn said:


> since you figured it out we will start with you....
> 
> should we remove your left nut or your right nut. to blance the masculinity of the world.:rofl:


Oh Hell no, I am doing my part to ensure that at least one MAN remains in this world. Who else is gonna repopulate it after 21/12/2012????


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Trenton said:


> The problem with you men is that you don't understand that good men are out there and capable of meeting those expectations. I'm a pretty cool woman who deserves a man who can meet my expectations and I wouldn't expect anything from him that I wouldn't expect from myself or be willing to give. The problem with us women is actually that many of us don't recognize how really cool we are and so lower our expectations.
> 
> Men are more than capable of rising to the occasion.



So let me pose a question, and to RJ, our resident misandrist:

What are your expectations of a man that is the sole breadwinner, and the expectations of a woman that stays at home?


----------



## VermisciousKnid

Dexter Morgan said:


> So let me pose a question, and to RJ, our resident misandrist:
> 
> What are your expectations of a man that is the sole breadwinner, and the expectations of a woman that stays at home?


Expectations. I get the feeling that some women think that their's are non-negotiable and that men just don't realize that their's are wrong. The idea is that the man will achieve enlightenment and change to fit the woman's ideal. It's an undercurrent that exists in many places: That women are basically superior, so the ideal should be feminine. That's what keeps coming through in these threads. I guess that is misandrist, though not overtly so.


----------



## memyselfandi

I realize your frustration as I was married to one of the men you speak of. He ran his own business and although he worked hard at it, he eventually ran it into the ground due to poor business decisions. He hired shoddy employees that stole from him, would show up to work late (if at all), always wanted advances on their wages, which he gave them, and was generally very irresponsible to his customers. Eventually nobody would hire him anymore.

I tried my best to help him make better business decisions, would go out to the jobsites with him many times and supervise his employees, did all his billing for him, etc., but his pride always got in the way and he wanted to do it all himself. Then when it would fall flat again, he'd sit around and feel sorry for himself, sleep all day, or would spend hours on the internet chatting with other women he would meet on the side.

Our marriage suffered many separations over the years because of all this but he would always talk me into taking him back and me being the forgiving kind, I did.

It continued to worsen over the years as his business got worse and worse until he had nothing left. I was then shoveling him out of tax messes with the government, took out a second mortgage on our home, as he proceeded to get himself into more and more messes of which I again, walked around behind him and cleaned up his messes.

The more messes I cleaned up, the more he got himself into. He developed this rotten mentality that everyone was out to get him and that, if he couldn't beat them, he may as well join them and got himself involved with drugs, horrible women that took him to the cleaners, he stole things from our home, stole money from me that I needed to pay for bills, and generally showed up at home whenever he just needed a place to crash. 

He eventually got himself into so much trouble that he ended up in jail, blaming every Tom **** and Harry for all his messes except for himself. I should have left him then, but I honesly found myself feeling sorry for him, why to this day I don't know.

Throughout this who scenario, before he finally hit rock bottom he'd go through these episodes where he'd decide that the bills in our home were too much to handle and thus, he decided that he was going to move out of State for a bit and try to find work elsewhere. The whole time he was constantly calling me for cash to bail him out of some stupid thing he got involved in, and when I wouldn't send it, he'd give me a guilt trip. When he'd hit rock bottom out of State, he'd come toddling home wanting all this forgiveness and telling me that he was going to become a different person and that he loved me.

He'd move home for a bit, lay around feeling sorry for himself, and again spend all kinds of time on the internet, hooking up with all these other women, while I continued to work and pay all the bills in the household. I'd ask him for money and he'd give me either this, "I'll give you money as soon as possible.." or threaten to move out as he said he couldn't afford the large mortgage that HE had caused us to run up.

He eventually was going out every night of the week and rarely coming home. Sometimes I'd see him in a few days..sometimes a few weeks. I could always tell if he'd been home as there'd be a wet towel laying on the bathroom floor along with some clothes removed from him closet...along with an occasional tv missing from our home, a DVD player or whatnot.

There were even times I'd find my own personal things missing, as he was seeing one particular woman that he'd set up in apartments. He'd allow her to go through my things and basically help herself to my shampoos, makeup, and many of my nice clothes. When I confronted him about this, he'd of course deny it. I felt like I was losing my mind and however badly I wanted to kick him out and change the locks, he'd always find a way to get back in and I was just plain afraid of what he would do if I actually kicked him out.

Mind you, I was never physically afraid of him, but more afraid of what he would do to the nice things that we had in our home. I had many family heirlooms that were important to me, and he knew that, and I was afraid that one day those things would disappear since he was more emotionally abusive than anything else and would often say, "I did that just to piss you off.." as he knew just exactly how to get to me.

Several times when I came home from work, I found his girlfriends laundry in our washer. Our wash was laying wet on top of the washer, while all her things were in our washer and dryer. Again, if I made a fuss about things...these are the types of things that he would do "just to piss me off".

One day after an arguement the evening before, I had a husband call me up and say, "Do you know that your husband is fooling around with my wife? She just came home and told me that they had sex in your bed this afternoon.." Upon confronting my husband, he told me that had I not been such a b**** the night before, it never would have happened and that I deserved it..maybe next time I wouldn't be such a rag.

All this time I continued to work for a living and paid all the bills while he continued playing his games. It got to the point that I was even taking my purse and car keys to bed with me at night for fear that he would take my car (as he'd done many times before since his was always on the fritz) and I would have no way to get to work in the morning.

Eventually he met this woman online that he started spending lots of time with. Our marriage had been over years before and I was actually happy that he was spending less and less time at home. Eventually he told me right before the holidays that he wanted out and that a guy friend of his had asked him to move in with him. Of course it broke my heart to see 25 years of being together and 17 years of marriage go down the tubes and I was scared also. I know it sounds crazy when you know in your heart that your marriage is over..but for some crazy reason, it felt good to be needed...that when he'd call me to shovel him out of yet another one of his messes, I could be there for him..and that maybe, somewhere along the way, he'd realize how much I loved him and that after all we'd been through together..maybe our marriage was worth saving and he would get his act together.

Like a fool I begged him to stay through the holidays and see if we could work things out. We had the best time over those holidays that we'd had in a very long time and I was hoping that maybe, just maybe we could survive.

We had plans to go out for New Years Eve, but when I came home from work that day, he was gone. Wouldn't answer his phone or any of my texts. He never showed up that night but got in touch with me that following Wednesday and asked if he could get a few things. Of course, when he got home, I floundered like an idiot again, asking him when he was coming home and his reply was, "I'm not. I just want out. I'm not happy and I just want out."

I was a mess.

He eventually moved in with his girlfriend and they eventually moved to California together. During this time I took time out for myself and aside from going to work, I pretty much hibernated for six months. Eventually I got the strength to start going out with friends when all of a sudden out of the blue he started showing up again, telling me that he and his girlfriend had broken up and that he was staying with his mom. We spent some time together on several occasions just talking, cleaning up our yard, etc., but I was very guarded with my feelings. I threw out several opportunities for him to either say he wanted to work things out..or if we were just better off friends and he just rode the fence.

One weekend, I just sat down and decided that enough was enough...it was time to file for divorce. This was over the course of at least two years where I'd been hoping and hoping for us to reconcile..and I'd finally had enough. I don't think I ever cried so much in my life but that next Monday morning, I contacted someone at Pro Se, made an appt. and filed.

I cried no tears while filing the paperwork. The individual asked if I wanted to have him served, but I told him that I'd just as soon tell him myself...I did still have a heart and I wanted to tell him myself. Lo and behold, as I drove into my driveway after my appointment, his truck was sitting in front of the house. I walked into our backyard and he was just coming out of the garage. We stood and talked for a bit and I told him, "I have some bad news for you...I went down and filed this morning. It's not something I enjoyed doing, but you haven't been around for quite some time now..you're living with another woman..and I want to move on with my life..."

He seemed a bit surprised but we talked about it and both agreed that it was time. As we were talking out in our front yard...out of the blue..here came his girlfriend walking down our driveway!! I was livid as I told him to never bring her on our property. He couldn't apologize enough but that's when I knew that it was completely and totally over with us. His reply was, "I didn't know that you were going to be here.." He had THAT little respect for my one last little wish..just to keep her away from our property.

She stood by the side of locked truck just waiting for him to open the door..wishing the ground would swallow her up right there...I didn't say anything but, "The two of you make me sick..Goodbye!!"

I guess my point is, after this really long post is that if he's not making you happy..you CAN find the strength to get out. No man has the right to treat us badly and oftentimes it's us that enables it. I know I did for too many years. You don't have to be treated like their clean up committee, whether it's cleaning up the house, taking care of the kids, etc., or cleaning up their irresponsible messes. A marriage is a two way street and sometimes one or the other person needs to kick in when the other person hits a rough patch, but that by no means being taking for granted or being taken advantage of.

I again, feel your pain as it leaves a person very put off by the opposite sex. I'm sure that there are many men out there that have gone through horrible situations with their wives also..and it does tend to leave one with the attitude that "they're all the same".

I just wanted to share what I went through but we all need to believe that there ARE good men/women out there who aren't like all the rest. As I write this, I have since met a wonderful man. One who appreciates me and makes me feel beautiful. He tells me every chance he has how much he appreciates me and how much he loves me. He's a wonderful provider and respects me as a person. He has two wonderful children who I love dearly and love me just as much. We plan to be married this summer and become a family.

There IS light at the end of the tunnel, as we all need to believe that there IS someone out there that will love us for the wonderful people we are. Keep your chin up!!


----------



## Debbie Roxs

Sorry you had to go through all that. He did not appreciate you. I hope you move on with your life and find true happiness.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Trenton said:


> Considering the expectations are dependent upon the person expecting, it's rather hard to answer your question. Are you asking me what my expectations were when I was a woman who stayed home and my husband was the sole breadwinner?


The question was for whether you were in the position where your SO was the sole bread winner, or what your expectations would be if you were in a relationship where your SO was the sole breadwinner.

My x-wife didn't want to hold a job. She wanted to stay at home. I figured, ok, she can be the SAHM, as long as she realized the house and kids were her job, and my job was mine.

Now, doesn't mean that when I get home I don't do anything, but things like laundry, cleaning the house, etc, where her responsibility. I didn't even expect her to cook dinner. I figured most of that time that could be a joint effort, and I would bring home take out a time or two a week so neither of us had to worry about it.

But she thought that I should work all day, and then come home and clean the house and everything. Sorry. I took care of the house and the kids when she went away with her mother for a week. As long as I didn't sit on my ass on the couch, I could take car of the kids, clean the house, do the laundry, etc, and be done well into the early afternoon with the rest of the day to do as I wish(and take care of the kids of course). I would have traded her any day. But she acted like it wasn't fair. Hey, I wanted her to work, she wanted to stay home. I gave her what she wanted, and she still *****ed about it.


----------



## Becca1103

I just need some other opinions....should i be ok with my new husband texting and talking to someone he says is his homegirl that i have not met and that he used to sleep with 20 years ago ? HELP


----------



## nice777guy

Becca1103 said:


> I just need some other opinions....should i be ok with my new husband texting and talking to someone he says is him homegirl that i have not met and that he used to sleep with ? HELP


Easy - NO!!!!


----------



## Becca1103

nice777guy said:


> Easy - NO!!!!


Can I get some other opinions on this because my husband seems to think that this is ok and there shouldnt be a problem ?


----------



## nice777guy

If you think its a problem - then its a problem.

Gather all the opinions you'd like.


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## Dexter Morgan

Trenton said:


> My personal expectations of a SAHM & Sole Breadwinner dynamic would be the same as yours. I was a SAHM for 8 years and my husband and I had that dynamic in place of which I am extremely grateful for.


Then my feeling is you have a vast difference of what expectations are as opposed to the OP, RJ. Seems she wants a man to take care of her and that a relationship should be 25% the woman, and 75% the man.


----------



## R.J.

Dexter Morgan said:


> So let me pose a question, and to RJ, our resident misandrist:
> 
> What are your expectations of a man that is the sole breadwinner, and the expectations of a woman that stays at home?


In my opinion, if the man is the sole breadwinner I assume that he's actually paying all of the bills. In this case, I believe that the SAHM is responsible for taking care of the home. This means cooking, cleaning, and taking primary care of the kids. She's responsible for maintaining the home while the husband is responsible for supporting the home.

I don't think that the husband (being sole breadwinner) should have to come home and cook or clean. He should play an active role in his children's lives and not expect the mom to be the only active participant because she stays at home. However, he shouldn't have to come home and work after working all day while the wife has been home all day.


----------



## R.J.

Trenton said:


> You are kinder than me in the above scenario because then the wife would never have off while the husband would have off after working whatever hours he worked. When both are home, the duties should be shared in my opinion. Otherwise, you do risk the wife feeling as if the husband is more of a child than a man. Of course, if the husband does things like changing the oil, car maintenance, lawn maintenance, etc...that would obviously be considered a great contribution.


No, you are correct. I didn't go into all of the minute details of the roles for each spouse, but just the basic responsibilities. I mean if the home need repairs, then I think it's the husband's responsibility to fix them. Mowing the lawn, taking out the trash, things like that I believe it's a man's job. However domestic work such as cooking, laundry, and cleaning, I think the SAHM should be responsible for.

But if the husband works all day, and have to come home and split the home responsibilities 50/50, then what does the SAHM do all day?


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> Work at home never ends and so that's the thing, it's also very repetitive without anything but temporary strides. Now I think most SAHM's are OK with this but require appreciation and recognition. If a husband says to the SAHM, "What did you do? It's not like you have a real job like I do." I think the resentments start and I think it is very common for the man over estimate his own value and under value his wife. Let's face it, we live in a society where we place value on financials rather than intangibles.
> 
> I don't think it matters so much how the tasks and responsibilities are divided up as long as both partners feel appreciated and recognized. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen as often as it should.


My ex said that to me.

So I stopped everything ( I was a SAHM at the time).

A few days later he was asking about clean underwear. He was asking about groceries. He was asking about dusty floors (hardwood). He was asking for clean shirts, pants, etc.

Then he got it.

Yea. I did a lot. Jackwipe.


----------



## R.J.

Trenton said:


> .
> 
> I don't think it matters so much how the tasks and responsibilities are divided up as long as both partners feel appreciated and recognized. .


Well said! :iagree:


----------



## I Know

Hey RJ, 30 pages of discussion from your original question. I think you hit a nerve. 

IMO: There are lazy leeches among both sexes. Personal character is not for everyone unfortunately. 

So what do you think? Have men stopped being men?


----------



## R.J.

R.J. said:


> Well said! :iagree:


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## R.J.

I Know said:


> Hey RJ, 30 pages of discussion from your original question. I think you hit a nerve.
> 
> IMO: There are lazy leeches among both sexes. Personal character is not for everyone unfortunately.
> 
> So what do you think? Have men stopped being men?


Although many may disagree with my beliefs, I do believe that SOME have truly stopped being men. They have no pride and will accept their wives doing it all while they sit & reap the benefits. There are many who are great providers, but there are still several that are good for absolutely nothing!

P.S. I think I hit several nerves with this thread! HA! Didn't mean to. Was just asking a question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## abandonedcompletely

Trenton said:


> You are kinder than me in the above scenario because then the wife would never have off while the husband would have off after working whatever hours he worked. When both are home, the duties should be shared in my opinion. Otherwise, you do risk the wife feeling as if the husband is more of a child than a man. Of course, if the husband does things like changing the oil, car maintenance, lawn maintenance, etc...that would obviously be considered a great contribution.


I agree... That was me


I worked hard in my home, from 6 am till 10 pm, from getting the kids up and off to school, cleaning, organizing, grocery shopping, banking, budget, laundry, cooking, baths, homework, teaching social functioning to the kids, bedtime stories, counselor, bonding emotionally to the children, implement discipline, handle every problem that came into the home..etc.. The fact is, my time was devoted to everyone else with very little left over for myself. 

I didn't mind it, but what I did mind was that there was no appreciation for it from my husband, though I was expected to do all that work alone. 

For me, to work as hard as I did, yet was treated like I didn't work, caused much resentment.

Each spouse wants to feel appreciated for the work they do, regardless if it brings in a paycheck. With all the work I did, my husband treated me like I did nothing. That was a huge slap in the face to me.

It's sad that, most times, the work that has monetary value, is the only thing that's valued as work.


----------



## ocotillo

Trenton said:


> Of course, if the husband does things like changing the oil, car maintenance, lawn maintenance, etc...that would obviously be considered a great contribution.


Kudos to you for being fair, Trenton. Re roofing a house in July is no fun at all.


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## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> You are kinder than me in the above scenario because then the wife would never have off while the husband would have off after working whatever hours he worked. When both are home, the duties should be shared in my opinion. Otherwise, you do risk the wife feeling as if the husband is more of a child than a man. Of course, if the husband does things like changing the oil, car maintenance, lawn maintenance, etc...that would obviously be considered a great contribution.


It is good that you notice that. I think too often people over estimate what they do and under estimate what their spouse does. Just as some men openly wonder what their stay at home wife does, some women gloss over the outdoor chores that their husbands perform. A woman in my neighborhood was openly complaining about how little her husband did around the house. Her list was dominated by the inside work (laundry, dishes, etc.) and she dismissed another woman's comment about mowing the lawn and keeping up the yard as "not hard." It was not hard because she never does it.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

Here is an answer to RJs simple question of when did men stop acting like men.

Answer: they day women wanted to be just like men. Feminism is wonderful!!!:smthumbup:


----------



## VermisciousKnid

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is good that you notice that. I think too often people over estimate what they do and under estimate what their spouse does. Just as some men openly wonder what their stay at home wife does, some women gloss over the outdoor chores that their husbands perform. A woman in my neighborhood was openly complaining about how little her husband did around the house. Her list was dominated by the inside work (laundry, dishes, etc.) and she dismissed another woman's comment about mowing the lawn and keeping up the yard as "not hard." It was not hard because she never does it.


:iagree:

Bingo! My wife and I both work and split certain duties like food shopping, laundry, and cooking right down the middle, yet she claims to be doing more work! There's a big imbalance in other chores. I do all of the outside stuff, cars, home maintenance, I get to clean the bathrooms (whee!). She does cleaning, general organizing, and other stuff. The bottom line is that we are both busy for an equal amount of time during the week and weekend, so it doesn't really make sense to claim that one of us is putting in more effort and the other is slacking. It just doesn't hold water.

So she made the slacking claim toward me one time and I calmly suggested that we switch all chores. She didn't react well to that, but she stopped making the claim. 

I think the "lazy husband" meme is a way that some women like to commiserate with each other. There's generally no truth to it, but it's an acceptable topic for female bonding. Sympathy can be gained with it even if it isn't actually true. Humor can be made from it as well.

The "husband is a baby when he's sick" is another stupid one.


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## ozwang

Amplexor said:


> I'm sorry the situation with your husband has tainted your opinion of the rest us.


Gotta agree with Amplexor, you cant base your opinions from your personal experience onto the rest of us. 

My wife and I both work full time jobs, she earns more than me however. I dont feel jealous or bitter, nor have the desire to earn more than her. We're both happy where we are. We chip in equally with the housework and everything is peaches :smthumbup:


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## ozwang

R.J. said:


> In my opinion, if the man is the sole breadwinner I assume that he's actually paying all of the bills. In this case, I believe that the SAHM is responsible for taking care of the home. This means cooking, cleaning, and taking primary care of the kids. She's responsible for maintaining the home while the husband is responsible for supporting the home.
> 
> I don't think that the husband (being sole breadwinner) should have to come home and cook or clean. He should play an active role in his children's lives and not expect the mom to be the only active participant because she stays at home. However, he shouldn't have to come home and work after working all day while the wife has been home all day.


This is 2012, not 1950. You have very outdated ideals.

When my wife stops working soon to be at home with our baby, I will continue to do stuff around the house when I get home from work (including playing with our baby to give her a break to do other things she'd like to).

I think its a very selfish position to be in to say oh well I work during the day so when I get home i dont have to do anything :scratchhead:


----------



## Dexter Morgan

ozwang said:


> This is 2012, not 1950. You have very outdated ideals.
> 
> When my wife stops working soon to be at home with our baby, I will continue to do stuff around the house when I get home from work (including playing with our baby to give her a break to do other things she'd like to).
> 
> I think its a very selfish position to be in to say oh well I work during the day so when I get home i dont have to do anything :scratchhead:


And so did I when my wife was a SAHM. But the expectation is that taking care of the kids and the house is now her part to play in the marriage if I'm at work all day. I still will come home and do the dishes, pick up after the kids (unless it was obvious she didn't do a thing all day long which happened alot), as well as the other things that is expected of me only, like mow the yard and make repairs.

But OP here seems to think the man should just be breaking his back even if the wife gets to stay at home and eat bon bons on the couch.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Dexter Morgan said:


> And so did I when my wife was a SAHM. But the expectation is that taking care of the kids and the house is now her part to play in the marriage if I'm at work all day. I still will come home and do the dishes, pick up after the kids (unless it was obvious she didn't do a thing all day long which happened alot), as well as the other things that is expected of me only, like mow the yard and make repairs.
> 
> But OP here seems to think the man should just be breaking his back even if the wife gets to stay at home and eat bon bons on the couch.


Yet she is the one who works and pays all the bills, cooks, cleans, etc. Yeah, she's really lazy.....isn't she? 

I sense you skipped over entire paragraphs of the original post or maybe the entire thing and just projected your own beliefs.


----------



## FirstYearDown

R.J. said:


> In my opinion, if the man is the sole breadwinner I assume that he's actually paying all of the bills. In this case, I believe that the SAHM is responsible for taking care of the home. This means cooking, cleaning, and taking primary care of the kids. She's responsible for maintaining the home while the husband is responsible for supporting the home.
> 
> I don't think that the husband (being sole breadwinner) should have to come home and cook or clean. He should play an active role in his children's lives and not expect the mom to be the only active participant because she stays at home. However, he shouldn't have to come home and work after working all day while the wife has been home all day.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/32525-please-explain-lazy-housewives.html


----------



## SimplyAmorous

R.J. said:


> In my opinion, if the man is the sole breadwinner I assume that he's actually paying all of the bills. In this case, I believe that the SAHM is responsible for taking care of the home. This means cooking, cleaning, and taking primary care of the kids. She's responsible for maintaining the home while the husband is responsible for supporting the home.
> 
> I don't think that the husband (being sole breadwinner) should have to come home and cook or clean. He should play an active role in his children's lives and not expect the mom to be the only active participant because she stays at home. However, he shouldn't have to come home and work after working all day while the wife has been home all day.


I agree with you 100%, this is how we live, I do not begrudge anything about this at all. I have a few jobs on the side even...and I do all the cleaning, all the cooking (my kids do it sometimes), laundry, all the scheduling/calenders -alot to keep track of with a large family, I write out all the bills, I do all the research for things we want to buy or buy online, I make all the appointments.... anything related to this house that I am capable of doing..I do.. I try to cut our grass in the summer also to save him time (we mow about 3 acres) 

I DO all of this willingly and because I sincerely WANT my husband to be able to relax when he gets home, I consider his job much harder than mine, he works in all weather conditions, has to brave the wintery roads, put up with a nasty boss, what do I get to enjoy.... in my free time...TAM !! and I still have free time -for other things. 

Though I am a ball of energy, none of this bothers me.

It helps our family run very very smoothly like a well oiled machine. 

Sometimes I feel I am a lone voice for the old fashioned Lifestyle . It still works for many of us. 

And he does everything I "can't do" - woodworking, pipes, working on the vehicles, patching the roof, cutting down trees, snow plowing, etc ...many times I help him with those projects.

He is also an excellent dad....he watches movies with the kids, plays board games iwth them, he helps them with their homework (he knows I hate that job)...
\
If he was having to help me take care of this house, I would seriosly be ashamed of myself being a SAHM, then he wouldn't have time for the kids even....and It is very very important for me to have our "US" time as well as it gets into evening.... so if I was a slacker at home, that would only screw with our sex life, and that ain't gonna happen -if I have anything to do with it. 

MY husband praises me for what I do, and I praise him for what he does, much respect both ways.... as it should be.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

R.J. said:


> In my opinion, if the man is the sole breadwinner I assume that he's actually paying all of the bills. In this case, I believe that the SAHM is responsible for taking care of the home. This means cooking, cleaning, and taking primary care of the kids. She's responsible for maintaining the home while the husband is responsible for supporting the home.
> 
> I don't think that the husband (being sole breadwinner) should have to come home and cook or clean. He should play an active role in his children's lives and not expect the mom to be the only active participant because she stays at home. However, he shouldn't have to come home and work after working all day while the wife has been home all day.


That sounds better. This is a far cry from the tone of your original post.


----------



## abandonedcompletely

Trenton said:


> *I think if you step back and look at it for a moment you'll see what women wanted was equal respect and admiration for the roles they do as well as the ability to attempt different roles.*
> 
> Do some use the movement as an excuse to man bash? Did the movement result in major negatives for both men and women?
> 
> I'd say yes to both of the above.
> 
> Yet, I still wouldn't go backwards and change it. Do I think we need to amend and take a look at the resulting problems and try to correct them? Yeps.
> 
> I appreciate yard work, car work, house repairs, even computer work because my husband takes care of all of that and I DO appreciate it. Especially when I had a flat tire the other day and he drove from work to fix it and get me back on the road in time for an important appointment I had. I don't need to be a liberated woman who can get all greasy in my pencil skirt and stockings. Yes, I could do it or I could pay to have it done. I don't have to and I really think that's fabulous!
> 
> I don't want to undervalue my husband one bit, I only want to be appreciated for the things that I do as well, for him and for our family.


The part I have emboldened is it exactly!


----------



## ozwang

If the husbands job is that taxing that he can't come home from a days work and chip in a little with some cooking and cleaning, his worklife needs adjustment.

Its unrealistic in this day and age for a guy to come home from work then just sit around and rest while wifey runs around after him. In essence a SAHM is @ 'work' during the day when at home, she needs a break at the end of the day too.

My marriage works as a partnership, 50/50, we do what we have to to get by, if that means helping each other out so that everyones life is easier then so be it.


----------



## Conrad

ozwang said:


> If the husbands job is that taxing that he can't come home from a days work and chip in a little with some cooking and cleaning, his worklife needs adjustment.
> 
> Its unrealistic in this day and age for a guy to come home from work then just sit around and rest while wifey runs around after him. In essence a SAHM is @ 'work' during the day when at home, she needs a break at the end of the day too.
> 
> My marriage works as a partnership, 50/50, we do what we have to to get by, if that means helping each other out so that everyones life is easier then so be it.


Wow.

She's to stay at home while you draws a salary and you're going to do 50/50 on housework?


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## I Know

ozwang said:


> If the husbands job is that taxing that he can't come home from a days work and chip in a little with some cooking and cleaning, his worklife needs adjustment.
> 
> Its unrealistic in this day and age for a guy to come home from work then just sit around and rest while wifey runs around after him. In essence a SAHM is @ 'work' during the day when at home, she needs a break at the end of the day too.
> 
> My marriage works as a partnership, 50/50, we do what we have to to get by, if that means helping each other out so that everyones life is easier then so be it.


OZ: your sense of entitlement is breathtakingly awful. Beyond comprehension. 

I am on call 24/7 for work. I never get a break. 2 AM problem calls resolving some mind bending piece of software that if not fixed by 6AM means that 100's of workers cannot do their jobs. 

As a SAHM do you get performance reviews by a demanding boss who wants to use your efforts as a springboard for promotion? Do you monthly status meetings w/ a supervisor to report your progress on assignments? Where I work the bottom performers get fired. Will you get fired for under performing? 

You don't seem to understand that in today's economy/work world, if you are not 200% committed to the job, you will be replaced. There is no such thing as going to your boss and saying you need a work/life adjustment. Unless of course you work for a union or have a government job. 

Being a SAHM is such a luxury, I cannot believe anyone complains about it. You are living off the grid. You do as little or as much as you want. It's a dream come true. I would love to have as my biggest concern that little jonny scraped his knee.


----------



## that_girl

Conrad said:


> Wow.
> 
> She's to stay at home while you draws a salary and you're going to do 50/50 on housework?


I think he's just saying that when HIS day at work is done, so is hers.

I work, but I also am a housewife...as I'm home by 3:30 and hubs get home around 8. I get things done and "work" in the home until he gets home. We both get up at 5:15. I deal with the kids and am out the door with the kids by 6:15. He leaves at 6:30 for work.

But when he gets home at night, we both rest. Shet is done, dinner is ready and HE does the dishes. I don't ask him to, he just does. Then we hang out together.

He plays with the kids and gives me a break from be "on call" all day (as a teacher and mom, this is draining too AND the kids need time with them) and he reads the bedtime stories.

With my ex,he'd be home by 6 and sit on his ass all night. I would be up before him to make coffee, deal with our daughter and he'd mosey to work around 9 and be home at 6 and eat dinner then go play on the computer....while I worked until 10pm doing things in the home and garden and dealing with our child.

His excuse? Well, you get to stay home...I work all day.

Jackass. He's still single too :rofl: Wonder why!!


----------



## that_girl

I Know said:


> OZ: your sense of entitlement is breathtakingly awful. Beyond comprehension.
> 
> I am on call 24/7 for work. I never get a break. 2 AM problem calls resolving some mind bending piece of software that if not fixed by 6AM means that 100's of workers cannot do their jobs.
> 
> As a SAHM do you get performance reviews by a demanding boss who wants to use your efforts as a springboard for promotion? Do you monthly status meetings w/ a supervisor to report your progress on assignments? Where I work the bottom performers get fired. Will you get fired for under performing?
> 
> You don't seem to understand that in today's economy/work world, if you are not 200% committed to the job, you will be replaced. There is no such thing as going to your boss and saying you need a work/life adjustment. Unless of course you work for a union or have a government job.
> 
> Being a SAHM is such a luxury, I cannot believe anyone complains about it. You are living off the grid. You do as little or as much as you want. It's a dream come true. I would love to have as my biggest concern that little jonny scraped his knee.


UGhhhhh you just reminded me that I'm being evaluated this Tuesday by my principal  

But your "biggest concern" about Johnny scraping his knee is a rude thing to say about women who stay home.

My mom was a SAHM and did EVERYTHING in that house. Ran it like a ship. Paid the bills. Budgeted. Made sure everything was how and where it was supposed to be. She was a goddess in that home.

Hardly easy work. I never saw her sit down. Ever. I do that as well. I get home from work and then I work at home and I dont' sit down until my husband gets home. Sure, I post on here, but what many of you dont' know, is that my laptop just sits in the kitchen when i'm cooking, or on the washer when I'm folding laundry. LOL I need SOME adult conversation throughout my day! I'm always surrounded by kids! But my house is kept. I have bigger worries than if my child gets hurt. I provide the food in this home (buy it and cook it) so...yea. That can be stressful. Budgeting is not an easy thing.


----------



## I Know

that_girl said:


> UGhhhhh you just reminded me that I'm being evaluated this Tuesday by my principal
> 
> But your "biggest concern" about Johnny scraping his knee is a rude thing to say about women who stay home.
> 
> My mom was a SAHM and did EVERYTHING in that house. Ran it like a ship. Paid the bills. Budgeted. Made sure everything was how and where it was supposed to be. She was a goddess in that home.
> 
> Hardly easy work. I never saw her sit down. Ever. I do that as well. I get home from work and then I work at home and I dont' sit down until my husband gets home. Sure, I post on here, but what many of you dont' know, is that my laptop just sits in the kitchen when i'm cooking, or on the washer when I'm folding laundry. LOL I need SOME adult conversation throughout my day! I'm always surrounded by kids! But my house is kept. I have bigger worries than if my child gets hurt. I provide the food in this home (buy it and cook it) so...yea. That can be stressful. Budgeting is not an easy thing.


I get that. My mom was SAHM. She had part time jobs sometimes after the kids were in school. My dad nearly killed himself with workplace stress. All kinds of Overtime (on salary). My mom didn't do squat compared to my dad.

Regardless, I am not trying to devalue SAHM. Just still cannot get over her statement that "well just like magic, you go into your bosses office and demand that you get a work/life balance adjustment". What planet is she from? 

That Girl: what would you rather do: go to work or stay home? Personally I would take the SAH role over working in a heartbeat. My wife wouldn't have to lift a finger around the house if she worked and I stayed at home. OMG, it's like being retired. Isn't taking care of the house the main responsibility once you retire? How is that different from what she's doing now?


----------



## Scannerguard

> It is good that you notice that. I think too often people over estimate what they do and under estimate what their spouse does. Just as some men openly wonder what their stay at home wife does, some women gloss over the outdoor chores that their husbands perform. A woman in my neighborhood was openly complaining about how little her husband did around the house. Her list was dominated by the inside work (laundry, dishes, etc.) and she dismissed another woman's comment about mowing the lawn and keeping up the yard as "not hard." It was not hard because she never does it.


TallGuy,

I agree. . .you can always tell an old widow's house - it's very unkept from the outside, even if inside it looks like a Grandma Museum inside.

I think women do get jealous of the outside work because it does excuse the man from the drudgery of whiney kids (and I would admit that's one reason I would gravitate towards it) But. . .yeah. . . Cleaning gutters, power washing, lawn maintenance, sidewalk edging, staining/sealing deck, weeding/feeding lawn, minor repairs, painting. . .yup. . .must be "fun stuff' wives often think.

You know what I hated the most? Painting! I'd be inside for that and I think, if I take my time, I have gotten pretty good at it. 

But I always felt rushed. . .need to help with the kids. . .need to help with the kids. . .so a crappy job would result.

Again, I can drive through town and pick out the widow's houses. . .can't really do that with "widowers."

Widowers though. . .I can pick them out at diners and buffets. . .no one to cook for them.


----------



## that_girl

I Know said:


> I get that. My mom was SAHM. She had part time jobs sometimes after the kids were in school. My dad nearly killed himself with workplace stress. All kinds of Overtime (on salary). My mom didn't do squat compared to my dad.
> 
> Regardless, I am not trying to devalue SAHM. Just still cannot get over her statement that "well just like magic, you go into your bosses office and demand that you get a work/life balance adjustment". What planet is she from?
> 
> That Girl: what would you rather do: go to work or stay home? Personally I would take the SAH role over working in a heartbeat. My wife wouldn't have to lift a finger around the house if she worked and I stayed at home. OMG, it's like being retired. Isn't taking care of the house the main responsibility once you retire? How is that different from what she's doing now?


I'd rather go to work and stay at home. My profession allows me that luxury of being home when my kids are home and getting home early enough to take care of the house.

My husband works his butt off. My dad did too. Doesn't mean any job is more valuable.


----------



## AFEH

I’ve been a stay at home for the past two years. No need to work and all bills paid for by direct debit. I cook, shop, wash, clean just did the windows yesterday, iron, clear up, vacuum wash the floors, grow the veg. clear the yard, wash the ceilings, water the plants and garden. Just planning on chicken house and run for fresh meat and eggs. I can’t believe the “job satisfaction”, standing back and looking at all those shiny windows and scrubbed floors. And the exercise. All that stretching bending and lifting. I can go for a walk when I want, watch a favourite tv programme, grab a coffee with a mate have a laugh with the women in the shops. It’s a real doddle compared to actually working for a living. Throw in two or three babies, no problems!


----------



## Dexter Morgan

AFEH said:


> I’ve been a stay at home for the past two years. No need to work and all bills paid for by direct debit. I cook, shop, wash, clean just did the windows yesterday, iron, clear up, vacuum wash the floors, grow the veg. clear the yard, wash the ceilings, water the plants and garden. Just planning on chicken house and run for fresh meat and eggs. I can’t believe the “job satisfaction”, standing back and looking at all those shiny windows and scrubbed floors. And the exercise. All that stretching bending and lifting. I can go for a walk when I want, watch a favourite tv programme, grab a coffee with a mate have a laugh with the women in the shops. It’s a real doddle compared to actually working for a living. Throw in two or three babies, no problems!


I agree about the standing back and feeling good about the job you did.

I was alone with the kids all week once, took the week off while the then wife went with her mother to visit family. So I did everything, the house was never cleaner and still had time to myself.

Wife got home and couldn't believe the shape the house was in. She said, wow, its so clean. I said, "ya, think you can keep it this way?"


----------



## that_girl

Dexter Morgan said:


> I agree about the standing back and feeling good about the job you did.
> 
> I was alone with the kids all week once, took the week off while the then wife went with her mother to visit family. So I did everything, the house was never cleaner and still had time to myself.
> 
> Wife got home and couldn't believe the shape the house was in. She said, wow, its so clean. I said, "ya, think you can keep it this way?"


Yea, I will say....I work and keep house and my house looks better than my friends who stay home all day. They complain about all the laundry they have to do and all the cleaning and how messy things are and the kids. Don't even get me started on how many of my friends that are SAHM DO NOT COOK!  Unreal. I cook nightly.

Maybe they are depressed? unmotivated? I'd really like to know because I cannot empathize with them at all when they get into their mode. I get my shet done and the house is clean and organized...daily.

I don't mean to talk trash, but...if I was a SAHM, my place would be even BETTER (which is what happens in the Summers).


----------



## ozwang

I Know said:


> OZ: your sense of entitlement is breathtakingly awful. Beyond comprehension.
> 
> I am on call 24/7 for work. I never get a break. 2 AM problem calls resolving some mind bending piece of software that if not fixed by 6AM means that 100's of workers cannot do their jobs.
> 
> As a SAHM do you get performance reviews by a demanding boss who wants to use your efforts as a springboard for promotion? Do you monthly status meetings w/ a supervisor to report your progress on assignments? Where I work the bottom performers get fired. Will you get fired for under performing?
> 
> You don't seem to understand that in today's economy/work world, if you are not 200% committed to the job, you will be replaced. There is no such thing as going to your boss and saying you need a work/life adjustment. Unless of course you work for a union or have a government job.
> 
> Being a SAHM is such a luxury, I cannot believe anyone complains about it. You are living off the grid. You do as little or as much as you want. It's a dream come true. I would love to have as my biggest concern that little jonny scraped his knee.


All I am saying is during the day, she is at 'her job' and Im at mine. When I get home of an evening its a team effort from there onwards.

All I can see here is opinions from bitter house wifes who are married to husbands who are either lazy, or arent man enough to harden up and chip in when they get home.

How hard is a bit of cleaning, some of you make it out to be some hardcore job. Vacumming, cleaning showers etc is good exercise.


----------



## ozwang

that_girl said:


> With my ex,he'd be home by 6 and sit on his ass all night. I would be up before him to make coffee, deal with our daughter and he'd mosey to work around 9 and be home at 6 and eat dinner then go play on the computer....while I worked until 10pm doing things in the home and garden and dealing with our child.
> 
> His excuse? Well, you get to stay home...I work all day.


How many women on here are married to a guy like this?

I feel sorry for you.....


----------



## ozwang

I Know said:


> I get that. My mom was SAHM. She had part time jobs sometimes after the kids were in school. My dad nearly killed himself with workplace stress. All kinds of Overtime (on salary). My mom didn't do squat compared to my dad.
> 
> Regardless, I am not trying to devalue SAHM. Just still cannot get over her statement that "well just like magic, you go into your bosses office and demand that you get a work/life balance adjustment". What planet is she from?
> 
> That Girl: what would you rather do: go to work or stay home? Personally I would take the SAH role over working in a heartbeat. My wife wouldn't have to lift a finger around the house if she worked and I stayed at home. OMG, it's like being retired. Isn't taking care of the house the main responsibility once you retire? How is that different from what she's doing now?


You're purely basing your opinion on what you deemed to be as 'normal' from seeing your parents situation as a child. My dad worked his ass off out working, and my mum worked her ass off working running the household.

Comparing a stay at home mum, to retirement for a full-time worker is not only ignorant but an insult to all hard working stay at homes.


----------



## ozwang

sorry about all the posts.

In about 9 months time I'll be able to give you an opinion from both sides of the fence as after our baby is 6months old, my wife is heading back to the workplace and I (the daddy) am coming home to be a SAHD :smthumbup:


----------



## Syrum

AFEH said:


> I’ve been a stay at home for the past two years. No need to work and all bills paid for by direct debit. I cook, shop, wash, clean just did the windows yesterday, iron, clear up, vacuum wash the floors, grow the veg. clear the yard, wash the ceilings, water the plants and garden. Just planning on chicken house and run for fresh meat and eggs. I can’t believe the “job satisfaction”, standing back and looking at all those shiny windows and scrubbed floors. And the exercise. All that stretching bending and lifting. I can go for a walk when I want, watch a favourite tv programme, grab a coffee with a mate have a laugh with the women in the shops. It’s a real doddle compared to actually working for a living. Throw in two or three babies, no problems!


It was fine un till you said throw in the two or three babies no problem.

:rofl:

Really? I love the days I get to stay at home with no children, I can kind of do what I want when I want too, but throw in three babies/ kids and I'm run off my feet and out of my mind, from sleepnessness and never ending work.

Just another way to devalue traditional women's roles.

I think you really should try being a full time stay at home, to three babies, and see how you go.


----------



## that_girl

> I can go for a walk when I want, watch a favourite tv programme, grab a coffee with a mate have a laugh with the women in the shops.


:rofl: What? No, you can't.

The kids run the TV when it's on.
Walks are a freakin HASSLE when they are too big for strollers. omg.
And what shops and ladies? LOL The only shop I go to is the grocery store. No laughing there.


----------



## I Know

ozwang said:


> sorry about all the posts.
> 
> In about 9 months time I'll be able to give you an opinion from both sides of the fence as after our baby is 6months old, my wife is heading back to the workplace and I (the daddy) am coming home to be a SAHD :smthumbup:


Congrats OZ! I really do believe it is a good thing for the kids to have 1 parent at home for the kids between ages 0-5. 

I would enjoy it if you would post back after 9 months and see how successful you are in getting your wife to split the housework 50/50 while you are a SAHD.


----------



## AFEH

Syrum said:


> It was fine un till you said throw in the two or three babies no problem.
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Really? I love the days I get to stay at home with no children, I can kind of do what I want when I want too, but throw in three babies/ kids and I'm run off my feet and out of my mind, from sleepnessness and never ending work.
> 
> Just another way to devalue traditional women's roles.
> 
> I think you really should try being a full time stay at home, to three babies, and see how you go.


Deary deary me. I was being facetious. But as a victim feminist and especially one in Australia you have to have a go. For goodness sake get over it.


For the record there is absolutely no way being the type of man I am I could ever have provided the reliability and consistency that my wife provided my two sons and I with all the clean clothes, fabulous meals, welcoming smiles, clean and tidy house that she turned into a home simply by being there. She was our rock and our green field, our stability and comfort.

And when they were old enough she went to work full time and none of us suffered because of it. Still the meals cooked from fresh ingredients came, still always clean clothes to wear and still always that warmth that only a woman can provide.





And when I say none of us suffered when she went to work I mean none of us before you kick in with your victim feminist man knocking ways. She wanted to work and it made her even happier to go to work. And she didn’t have to go to work. I always had it covered for 37 years. And to be honest I’d rather her have stayed home longer but it’s what she wanted to do and it made her happy which was exceptionally important to me.


----------



## AFEH

that_girl said:


> :rofl: What? No, you can't.
> 
> The kids run the TV when it's on.
> Walks are a freakin HASSLE when they are too big for strollers. omg.
> And what shops and ladies? LOL The only shop I go to is the grocery store. No laughing there.


What you don’t flirt with the butcher!


----------



## abandonedcompletely

ozwang said:


> How many women on here are married to a guy like this?
> 
> I feel sorry for you.....


Sadly.... I am

Glad to see not all think like my husband


----------



## trey69

This is what I was taught my both my parents.

If my wife is a SAHM, and I work and I am the soul breadwinner, that does NOT mean that when my foot hits the door at the end of the work day that I'm free of not helping her out some too, etc. I help my wife out because I want too and she deserves it. 

She does a lot, a whole lot. Yes, she takes care of the things around the house, shopping, cooking etc, BUT at the end of my work day, I get to punch out on a clock she doesn't. So I help her out when I can. Luckily shes not demanding.

She understands I work and am tired sometimes, I also understand she is too. We try to make compromises and help each other out when we can. She also contributes to the bills as well. She might not have a 8-5 job where she punches a clock but she sells things on ebay, and she sells make up etc, for extra income towards bills. 


Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Speed

Putting aside the tone of the original post, the arguments and over generalization....

Possible reasons for men (or women) to not contribute:

Unhappy
Depressed
Given up
Taking advantage of the situation
Entitlement
Beaten down
Ridiculed
Tired
Medical issues
Does not have a sense of pride or rewarding feelings from accomplishments.
Raised to depend on others

The list could go on and on because everyone is different. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

If your husband/wife is drowning themselves in video games that is a red flag that they are sheltering themselves from reality. It is much easier to immerse yourself in a virtual world where you can control, manipulate, restart and redo with little effort than it is to deal with the real world.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> Overall, let me just say...What I find really disturbing here is how many keep saying both need to be appreciated, respected and admired but we are spending most of our time talking about how admirable and respectable the man's role is and then undermining, under estimating and devaluing the role of the traditional SAHM's role.
> 
> It's no wonder that the dichotomy is the way it is. No one really wants to fix it.


 I deleted my post, I don't want to come off as tooting my own horn. 

Noone can ever fix these things, because where society has come....is valuing "earning potential" over what another may do within the home --or one might even say ..."character" .... I personally don't feel it matters what someone earns (rich or on the poorer side of living), as much as their contribution to the betterment of their family , as healthier sound familes = a better society for us all to live in, so long as they can pay thier bills, their debts & buy their own food.....and find contentment in that . 

I am not undervaluing anything really, except those who are LAX - simply because it fuels many marraige woes that could have been easily avoided. We all need to contribute - pull our own weight, understand the pressure of the other.... when we allow this to slip.... the house is stressed, the marriage is stresssed, the children see fighting parents, they loose hope in what marraige IS, it's all no good. 


IF the husbands go into marraige having a healthy sense of doing all they possibly can to help their wives and the wives go into marraige with this same attitude..... without taking each other for granted....what a win/win it would be. 

People are over stressing themselves to make more $$ many times also. 

I Hope my daughter will be able to stay home someday & raise her children when they are young, I will teach her to do all she can to make life easier on her husband, I just feel that is wise.... like the Proverbs 31 woman. 

And we should all teach our sons to cook & clean , do their own clothes (mine get to babysit), so when they marry, they are not dependent on the wife ....we don't want them spoiled & "expecting".... I feel that will only hurt them in life & with their future wives.


----------



## that_girl

I think we just do what we need to do.

I don't do things for a prize. I do it because it's my job. Thankfully I enjoy it.


----------



## trey69

SimplyAmorous said:


> I Hope my daughter will be able to stay at home someday if she has children, I will teach her to do all she can to not burden her husband


Not to burden him with what? All the things she could be doing herself? Thats good, hopefully she can find a husband who was taught the same thing.


----------



## AgentD

trey69 said:


> This is what I was taught my both my parents.
> 
> If my wife is a SAHM, and I work and I am the soul breadwinner, that does NOT mean that when my foot hits the door at the end of the work day that I'm free of not helping her out some too, etc. I help my wife out because I want too and she deserves it.
> 
> She does a lot, a whole lot. Yes, she takes care of the things around the house, shopping, cooking etc, BUT at the end of my work day, I get to punch out on a clock she doesn't. So I help her out when I can. Luckily shes not demanding.
> 
> She understands I work and am tired sometimes, I also understand she is too. We try to make compromises and help each other out when we can. She also contributes to the bills as well. She might not have a 8-5 job where she punches a clock but she sells things on ebay, and she sells make up etc, for extra income towards bills.
> 
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


:smthumbup: Sounds like there is balance, the way it should be.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Trenton, why are you so bitter about SA and that_girl's happy marriages?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

trey69 said:


> Not to burden him with what? All the things she could be doing herself? Thats good, hopefully she can find a husband who was taught the same thing.


I took the word "burden" out of there about 30 seconds after I posted cause I figured that might offend some, I changed it to ..."to do all she can to make life easier on her husband". 

There should be a *balance* in all of this, it hurts when one carries more of a load, it weighs the other down, causes resentment to build. Most marraiges are likely a little lopsided, some can handle it just fine, especially if the other makes up for it in some other area that is important to them.... but for others it's too much to carry -after a time and it all starts to all fall apart.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> We get it SA & that_girl. You're both sex driven, perfect homemakers who adore their husbands and can't relate to women who are unlike you.




So, I can't say how things are or what has worked for me in fear of someone getting butt hurt about it? 

I'm not perfect, omg...not close. And no, I can't relate to some women who act like their only thing in life is to pop out kids and sit around doing nothing. I know women like this personally.

So what is your problem? Should SA and I not reply to these threads just because we have something good now? I say now because it wasn't always like this for me. I've worked my butt off to get here.

You've been publicly judgmental before about my marriage and husband. Please keep your comments about me to yourself. Thanks.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> I took the word "burden" out of there about 30 seconds after I posted cause I figured that might offend some, I changed it to ..."to do all she can to make life easier on her husband".
> 
> There should be a *balance* in all of this, it hurts when one carries more of a load, it weighs the other down, causes resentment to build. Most marraiges are likely a little lopsided, some can handle it just fine, especially if the other makes up for it in some other area that is important to them.... but for others it's too much to carry -after a time and it all starts to all fall apart.


Funny but I thought you had it right with burden. Running the home is the job of a SAHM. It is my wife's job. In a perfect world, she has it all done so that when I get home, there is nothing to do. Of course, that never happens. Not because she is lazy, but because life is never perfect (especially with three little ones). So when I get home, we work together when we get home to get things in order. 

But she gets irratated if I take on too much. She is currently sick, but bristles when I try to do some of the laundry. She is proud of the job that she does and wants to make sure that she pulls her weight. I appreciate that and tell her so. I also appreciate her point that her job is to do the things at home during the day so that we can have time together at night for us, not for the chores.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Firstyeardown... I think bitterness is too strong of a word ..... I was just getting carried away yaking about how easy I find it all to be (you know I can go on & on)....and that comes off as judgemental of others where it is not so easy - being a SAHM. I admittably said if I was a husband, I would be angry. 

I have 2 single GF's who do it all... work full time jobs, take care of a home and raise kids alone, food on the table every day, if they didn't do the laundry, it wouldn't get done... now for them, they have a hell of harder time than I could even imagine in life. 



Tall Average Guy said:


> Funny but I thought you had it right with burden. Running the home is the job of a SAHM. It is my wife's job.


 I am really not against that word, it does apply in many cases ....just again.... trying to not offend. 

I think "housework chores" is as touchy of a subject as SEX, when one feels neglected, or one is doing more than the other, you look like the bad person for saying something. Just plain "touchy".


----------



## AFEH

Tall Average Guy said:


> Funny but I thought you had it right with burden. Running the home is the job of a SAHM. It is my wife's job. In a perfect world, she has it all done so that when I get home, there is nothing to do. Of course, that never happens. Not because she is lazy, but because life is never perfect (especially with three little ones). So when I get home, we work together when we get home to get things in order.
> 
> But she gets irratated if I take on too much. She is currently sick, but bristles when I try to do some of the laundry. She is proud of the job that she does and wants to make sure that she pulls her weight. I appreciate that and tell her so. I also appreciate her point that her job is to do the things at home during the day so that we can have time together at night for us, not for the chores.


My wife was like that. We’d moved into a big house and I said I’d help her with the spring cleaning. She got annoyed!


----------



## AFEH

that_girl said:


> So, I can't say how things are or what has worked for me in fear of someone getting butt hurt about it?
> 
> I'm not perfect, omg...not close. And no, I can't relate to some women who act like their only thing in life is to pop out kids and sit around doing nothing. I know women like this personally.
> 
> So what is your problem? Should SA and I not reply to these threads just because we have something good now? I say now because it wasn't always like this for me. I've worked my butt off to get here.
> 
> You've been publicly judgmental before about my marriage and husband. Please keep your comments about me to yourself. Thanks.


Thoroughly enjoy your posts TG.


----------



## R.J.

SimplyAmorous said:


> I took the word "burden" out of there about 30 seconds after I posted cause I figured that might offend some, I changed it to ..."to do all she can to make life easier on her husband".
> 
> There should be a *balance* in all of this, it hurts when one carries more of a load, it weighs the other down, causes resentment to build. Most marraiges are likely a little lopsided, some can handle it just fine, especially if the other makes up for it in some other area that is important to them.... but for others it's too much to carry -after a time and it all starts to all fall apart.


Well said SA. I guess I should've had you develop this thread because you've basically articulated my point so much better than I was able to. 

Overall, there has to be balance in any relationship. What I originally identified was that several women on TAM were complaining that there was no balance at all in their marriages. The women were doing everything including working, paying all the bills, cooking, cleaning, etc. while their husbands would simply exist. The women expressed their resentment towards their husbands as a result. It's just unfair and exhausting to be married, but have to do everything on your own. 

If a spouse is more of a burden than a supporter, then what's the point of being married to them?


----------



## Halien

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am not undervaluing anything really, except those who are LAX - simply because it fuels many marraige woes that could have been easily avoided. We all need to contribute - pull our own weight, understand the pressure of the other.... when we allow this to slip.... the house is stressed, the marriage is stresssed, the children see fighting parents, they loose hope in what marraige IS, it's all no good.


There is another element in your posts that I don't think you give yourself credit for - and its a very big deal, in my opinion. In your posts, often, when you describe some area where the marriage isn't as strong as others, I'm often impressed by how you assume that your husband's intentions are still admirable, and noble. He is just struggling with one area, your posts seem to say, while he still honors you and contributes. Such positivity when describing the motives of a husband or wife can, by itself, create a great marriage dynamic. 

In marriages that are full of bitter feelings, a different tone can often be detected when a person posts on a site like this. I refrain from saying anything, because I try to stay out of motives unless they are communicated in the post. Still, like in the case of this thread, if a husband doesn't SEEM to communicate his appreciation for a SAHM wife, then the message is that he doesn't appreciate her. His motives are assumed to be selfish. If a SAHM wife doesn't SEEM to communicate her appreciation for her husband's work, then the negative person will make this the default interpretation from then on. Not at all suggesting that people are projecting this negativity often, or even that it is the norm, but it seems to be pretty powerful when it is there.

Its really hard to explain, but in my own life, I've tried to rethink the assumtions that I make about my wife's motivations in troubling situations. You may feel like people will think you are bragging, but it comes off as a person who not only honors her husband's work, but his motivations behind it. I'm convinced that many marriages begin to unravel much more quickly once we begin to put our thumb on the scale by default, when we weigh the motivations of our spouse.


----------



## R.J.

Dexter Morgan said:


> That sounds better. This is a far cry from the tone of your original post.


Oh Thank you. Now that I have your approval I can sleep at night.


----------



## R.J.

Dexter Morgan said:


> But OP here seems to think the man should just be breaking his back even if the wife gets to stay at home and eat bon bons on the couch.


DM, how in any way, shape, or form have I suggested that a "man should just be breaking his back even if the wife gets to stay at home and eat bon bons on the couch?" Do you actually read before forming an opinion. 

My entire thread is talking about unbalanced marriages. It's about men who don't contribute in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM in their marriages and would watch their wives struggle than to give them a hand. I spoke about several different threads in various forums that I've encountered where wives complained about this exact subject.

I don't believe either spouse should be BURDENED with the responsibilities of doing everything. There should be balance and respect of each other's roles in the household. I stated that SAHMs should take care of the home if their husbands are sole breadwinners (and vice versa). I even suggested that husbands whom are breadwinners should not only financially support the home, but also perform duties such as taking out trash, home and car maintenance, etc.. 

Therefore you tell me where I ever suggested that a SAHM should be able to sit all day, twirl her thumbs, and wait until her husband gets home from work to satisfy the home duties? READ BEFORE YOU SPEAK!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> If we asked your husband, "Whose role is more important? Your wife's or yours?"
> 
> What would he say? I can imagine him saying either that your role is more important or that they were equally important. You are in a supportive, loving relationship.


 I did just go ask him this.... His reply..."Is there really a more important role?" He says he fullfills the finances, but I do the bills, the children , the household (which includes a whole detailed list of things that he would be lost on)... so equally important is his answer....

..... he says the house would fall apart without me -says he would be up the sh** crick, but the money would fall apart without him, which obviously WE direly NEED to live & at least be "respectable" in the eyes of others. 

The reason we have life Insurance on me has really nothing to do with burying me ....but everything to do with what he will loose If I am gone....in the event he needs Sitters while he is at work & getting kids here & there & house chorse done, so he won't go crazy.



> How many could answer the question I asked you to ask your husband and be sincere. That's exactly where the problem lies. There does not exist a balance.


 I doubt most are really thinking about these things with much depth unless they landed on this thread....maybe it will make them question these things and look closer at their own roles in it, I don't know. 



> So it's not that I think you are bragging. I do believe you are being honest and I do not fault you one tiny little bit. It's more that I think it's a negative, creating further backup to the idea that a woman's job as a SAHM is not as important as a man's role as sole breadwinner.


 I am sorry.... I can't help but see HIS role as more "necessary" somehow .... Maybe that is wrong of me, I don't know but it is my view .... I can't get past that....

....In order to allow ourselves to build a "nest" .... he needed to be that breadwinner *1st *-for us to be responsible to bring forth these kids... then I felt I could "enjoy" that role with some pride, but I am completely dependent on him -if it falls apart, so does my role, and out the door I will be going to work to help us. 

It doesn't mean others need to look at it this way, just where I am at. I guess I don't really feel it takes anything away from me -for feeling this way.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

R.J. said:


> Well said SA. I guess I should've had you develop this thread because you've basically articulated my point so much better than I was able to.
> 
> Overall, there has to be balance in any relationship. What I originally identified was that several women on TAM were complaining that there was no balance at all in their marriages. The women were doing everything including working, paying all the bills, cooking, cleaning, etc. while their husbands would simply exist. The women expressed their resentment towards their husbands as a result. It's just unfair and exhausting to be married, but have to do everything on your own.
> 
> If a spouse is more of a burden than a supporter, then what's the point of being married to them?


That would be terribly exhausting - I completely agree with you, and under those circumstances a spouse truly IS a *burden*, you hate to say it, but darn it, it is true! 

Attending a wedding next month, the husband is a video game fanatic, I can see a train wreck coming, not much motivation on his part, she complains he is always on the computer & wastes his $$ on games. 

We'll see what happens, he never had a father growing up-never met him, had his adopted father reject him when her Mom divorced, lived with his grandmother who allowed him leisure to do anything anytime, no consequences, bailed him out of things, paid all his bills, so he had no need too. 

I don't think these things did him any favors in life. I want to believe it will all go well but I fully expect her to be carrying more in this upcoming marraige.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am sorry.... I can't help but see HIS role as more "necessary" somehow .... Maybe that is wrong of me, I don't know but it is my view .... I can't get past that....
> 
> ....In order to allow ourselves to build a "nest" .... he needed to be that breadwinner *1st *-for us to be responsible to bring forth these kids... then I felt I could "enjoy" that role with some pride, but I am completely dependent on him -if it falls apart, so does my role, and out the door I will be going to work to help us.
> 
> It doesn't mean others need to look at it this way, just where I am at. I guess I don't really feel it takes anything away from me -for feeling this way.


I normally read your posts of this nature and think both of you are equally important (for lack of better word) in your roles. I'm not saying otherwise now BUT the way you just described this, I feel I understand where you're coming from when you express that particular perspective.


----------



## Runs like Dog

AFEH said:


> My wife was like that. We’d moved into a big house and I said I’d help her with the spring cleaning. She got annoyed!



Does that cross come with its own nails?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> There is another element in your posts that I don't think you give yourself credit for ...


Appreciate your insights Halien... you are always that deep thinker who is reading between those lines many times, has something completely different to offer to these conversations. Sometimes I have to read your posts a couple times to gleem the meaning - but it always makes us THINK just a little bit more.


----------



## R.J.

SimplyAmorous said:


> That would be terribly exhausting - I completely agree with you, and under those circumstances a spouse truly IS a *burden*, you hate to say it, but darn it, it is true!
> 
> Attending a wedding next month, the husband is a video game fanatic, I can see a train wreck coming, not much motivation on his part, she complains he is always on the computer & wastes his $$ on games.
> 
> We'll see what happens, he never had a father growing up-never met him, had his adopted father reject him when her Mom divorced, lived with his grandmother who allowed him leisure to do anything anytime, no consequences, bailed him out of things, paid all his bills, so he had no need too.
> 
> I don't think these things did him any favors in life. I want to believe it will all go well but I fully expect her to be carrying more in this upcoming marraige.


Wow. Let's certainly pray for her because I too see a train wreck in the making. I hope that he doesn't let his wife down and force her to basically raise him as if he's her child. That's certainly what I did and since creating this thread I've filed for divorce. 

I'll be moving into my own place next week. I've never given birth to any children, but after being married to my husband I feel like I've raised at least 10. It's amazing how a person can marry someone and literally expect them to take care of them TILL DEATH DO THEM PART. My husband would just sit there while I pay all of our bills, work all day, cook, clean, pay for all of our leisure events, etc. He never tried to do anything to help me or make me feel even an ounce appreciated. To top his lack of support off, he never even did anything the least bit special for my birthday, anniversary, or any holiday/event that's intended to express love and appreciation. I feel he was completely selfish and had no intentions on being a husband.

That's why it's so annoying to sit here and read posts such as DM's who suggests that I think women should be able to sit and watch their husbands work like a slave to keep the family functioning. I wouldn't suggest ANYONE be put in a situation as such because I know at first hand how that feels. It's completely unfair, it destroys you as a person (mentally, physically, and emotionally), and it creates so much resentment in your heart that it's hard even imagining trusting another person again in life.

After fighting to save my marriage, maintaining my household and sanity for years, I've finally given up. I'm ready to be free and find a way to rebuild myself. 

So again, I'm emphasizing balance and respect. I believe having both is the only way to make the marriage work. Both parties must be effective in the marriage and not view one or the other's roles as more or least important.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Halien said:


> There is another element in your posts that I don't think you give yourself credit for - and its a very big deal, in my opinion. In your posts, often, when you describe some area where the marriage isn't as strong as others, I'm often impressed by how you assume that your husband's intentions are still admirable, and noble. He is just struggling with one area, your posts seem to say, while he still honors you and contributes. Such positivity when describing the motives of a husband or wife can, by itself, create a great marriage dynamic.
> 
> In marriages that are full of bitter feelings, a different tone can often be detected when a person posts on a site like this. I refrain from saying anything, because I try to stay out of motives unless they are communicated in the post. Still, like in the case of this thread, if a husband doesn't SEEM to communicate his appreciation for a SAHM wife, then the message is that he doesn't appreciate her. His motives are assumed to be selfish. If a SAHM wife doesn't SEEM to communicate her appreciation for her husband's work, then the negative person will make this the default interpretation from then on. Not at all suggesting that people are projecting this negativity often, or even that it is the norm, but it seems to be pretty powerful when it is there.
> 
> Its really hard to explain, but in my own life, I've tried to rethink the assumtions that I make about my wife's motivations in troubling situations. You may feel like people will think you are bragging, but it comes off as a person who not only honors her husband's work, but his motivations behind it. I'm convinced that many marriages begin to unravel much more quickly once we begin to put our thumb on the scale by default, when we weigh the motivations of our spouse.


One of the biggest steps forward I made in my relationship with my wife was when she did (or did not do) something that made me mad, was to actually step back and give her the benefit of the doubt on her motives. That she trying her best, she was not intentionally trying to hurt me, etc. It helped me immensely to be able to address the situation and her positively so that we could figure it out. In turn, she was able to give me that same positive response. It has become easier as our relationship has improved.

I am working to do it with others, though with somewhat less success.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> You are entitled to your perspective but I think you're still misunderstanding me. I think you feel that way because you are with an extraordinary man who has helped you grow, always supported you, put you before himself many times, suffered in silence but gladly awakened to your new-found sexuality and appreciated you more, never resented or begrudged you, always worked hard and came home to you at the end of the day when he said he would.
> 
> Swap that. Let's say he did resent you and wouldn't let it go. Let's say he never came home and left you alone. Let's say he said things to you like, "What did you buy that for? It's my money. You don't buy anything without me knowing." Let's say he has to read books to try to manipulate you into sex and his entire day focuses around why you're not doing it. He treats your kids differently because he resents them too as he sees them as the reason why you don't want sex and he NEVER lets it go. Not even with your new found sexuality. He just can't.
> 
> Then you asked him the very same question you just did and his answer was more like the replies of many of the men here, "I get you watch the kids and do dishes but I'm more important obviously. Without me you wouldn't have anything, you wouldn't have dishes to do and you wouldn't have a bed to sleep in. Everything you do is ridiculously easy, anyone can watch kids all day and browse the internet. I could do it with my eyes closed. You've no idea the sacrifices I make for this family."
> 
> *So it's not necessarily whose job is harder and whose is easier. See what I'm saying? The jobs are as variable as the amount of couples that are out there (a SAHM could have a disabled child and a father could have a job he hates, etc.). The difference between a healthy relationship and an unhealthy relationship is the ability to understand that both partners have to feel they count. In your relationship it very well may be that his role is more necessary but translating that to this idea that a SAHM's role is by default less necessary than a breadwinner's role is the problem.*
> 
> If your stance is that one is by default better than the other (doesn't matter which you choose), you reinforce this idea that SAHM is simple as pie and Breadwinner = awesome guy.
> 
> I hope I'm making sense here. I'm trying to make my point clear. For me, it's not about you or I, it's about the bigger picture on these forums since we're trying to help one another understand as well as be better partners ourselves.


Spew your feminazi crap elsewhere Trenton. When I was a SAHM, I lived a life of luxury. I woke up at 10:30, turned on the television, watched soap operas until Oprah came on and then ordered Chinese food for dinner, delivered to me by a delightful Mexican. I also dressed in Chanel, wore kitten heels by Jimmy Choo and the jewelry was always Van Cleef....not that crap from Tiffany. 
How DARE you suggest that I didn't work as hard as he did. How dare you.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


>


HOLY SH!!!!!!!!TTTTT. You know that was tongue and cheek, right?!?!?! 
I had vomit on my body every single day, diapers, more vomit, cooking, cleaning, laundry, literally cleaning poop off of walls after my son got in to his Diaper Genie. 
My point was, whoever thinks being a SAHM is easier has either never been a SAHM and has never worked outside the home. I got my sanity back when I got a paid job. 
My contribution was no less than my husbands. In fact, he would tell you in no uncertain terms.....mine was worse.


----------



## FirstYearDown

*So sad.*

Women will always be catty to other women who have something the snarky ones want. Who wouldn't want to have a happy marriage? Those who are satisfied with their own lives do not feel the need to take undeserved nasty swipes at others.

Trenton, I hope that you can come to a more content place in your life. SA, TG and me are all very amiable wives who are married to men that love to come home to us. Nothing wrong with bringing some happy posts to TAM. :smthumbup:


----------



## I Know

Trenton said:


> *So it's not necessarily whose job is harder and whose is easier. See what I'm saying? The jobs are as variable as the amount of couples that are out there (a SAHM could have a disabled child and a father could have a job he hates, etc.). The difference between a healthy relationship and an unhealthy relationship is the ability to understand that both partners have to feel they count. In your relationship it very well may be that his role is more necessary but translating that to this idea that a SAHM's role is by default less necessary than a breadwinner's role is the problem.*
> .


Yep. Everything is fine as long as each partner believes the other one is doing their fair share.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Ya. I knew although I had no idea what brands you were talking about except for the choo's. heh
> 
> It's just that my point was that it's only a competition in a marriage where there is resentment (based on whatever that resentment is based upon). One theme in a happy marriage is that the needs of both spouses are being met. See what I'm saying?


Yup. We have problems in our marriage, big ones. One of those was NEVER that either did less based on what they brought in. My husband has always said that a SAHM has the hardest job on the planet. He has gone so far as to say workers can be fired/laid off in a heartbeat but a SAHM is the fiber that holds a family together. I would argue that it was my husband who held us all together. Equals, it works.


----------



## heartsbeating

Trenton said:


> Then you asked him the very same question you just did and his answer was more like the replies of many of the men here, "I get you watch the kids and do dishes but I'm more important obviously. Without me you wouldn't have anything, you wouldn't have dishes to do and you wouldn't have a bed to sleep in. Everything you do is ridiculously easy, anyone can watch kids all day and browse the internet. I could do it with my eyes closed. You've no idea the sacrifices I make for this family."
> 
> *So it's not necessarily whose job is harder and whose is easier. See what I'm saying? The jobs are as variable as the amount of couples that are out there (a SAHM could have a disabled child and a father could have a job he hates, etc.). The difference between a healthy relationship and an unhealthy relationship is the ability to understand that both partners have to feel they count. In your relationship it very well may be that his role is more necessary but translating that to this idea that a SAHM's role is by default less necessary than a breadwinner's role is the problem.*
> 
> If your stance is that one is by default better than the other (doesn't matter which you choose), you reinforce this idea that SAHM is simple as pie and Breadwinner = awesome guy.
> 
> I hope I'm making sense here. I'm trying to make my point clear. For me, it's not about you or I, it's about the bigger picture on these forums since we're trying to help one another understand as well as be better partners ourselves.


I know you're not making this directly about SA - but what are the chances that she wouldn't be with a man like this in the first place? Or if their dynamic began changing, she would encourage it back to where it needed to be for the health of the marriage? 

At what point does behavior become unacceptable and how would one deal with that? If a spouse is feeling under-appreciated, neglected, (needs not being met), how can the couple get back on track? How can it be turned around again? 

It seems usually someone has to go first in changing behavior. Usually it's the spouse that seems to feel it most, or at least express it, that ends up being the one to initiate change. I don't mean bend over backwards or any of that but rather, initiating that things need to change for the health of the marriage.

I have read comments on these boards about being an adult, do what you have to do, get on with it...... okay, I agree with that to a point but I also think there's always room for appreciation, regardless if it's a "given" that it's the spouse's responsibility. 

In a work setting, if I expect something to be done by deadline and a colleague meets (or perhaps exceeds that deadline), I don't think "well that's what they are paid to do." I am still appreciative that it got done on time and express that.

Maybe I've gone way off track here. A keyboard, roaming thoughts, it happens to the best of us.


----------



## ozwang

trey69 said:


> This is what I was taught my both my parents.
> 
> If my wife is a SAHM, and I work and I am the soul breadwinner, that does NOT mean that when my foot hits the door at the end of the work day that I'm free of not helping her out some too, etc. I help my wife out because I want too and she deserves it.
> 
> She does a lot, a whole lot. Yes, she takes care of the things around the house, shopping, cooking etc, BUT at the end of my work day, I get to punch out on a clock she doesn't. So I help her out when I can. Luckily shes not demanding.
> 
> She understands I work and am tired sometimes, I also understand she is too. We try to make compromises and help each other out when we can. She also contributes to the bills as well. She might not have a 8-5 job where she punches a clock but she sells things on ebay, and she sells make up etc, for extra income towards bills.
> 
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


YAY! someone on my wavelength!! :smnotworthy:


----------



## heartsbeating

hmm ....well, I'm (obviously) no therapist. I'm another person who no doubt sometimes projects and will relate through my own experience, and sometimes I contradict myself and sometimes I'm a hypocrite. 

With this format of receiving information in fairly limited detail, and without tone attached, we can try to be objective and/or offer from our own experience and thoughts, and if it sparks inspiration in another, then great. I know these forums have given me different perspectives to consider. Are we sharing opinions and thoughts on what we think/feel, perhaps answering questions from our own perspectives? Or are we a neutral sounding board with the understanding of behavioral patterns and what really is best for someone based on the limited information given? 

If someone doesn't value SAHM/SAHD the same way we do, if someone doesn't value the husband/wife being the main breadwinner the same way we do, I'm doubtful those thoughts can be changed and it wouldn't be my aim to anyway. That would seem futile to me. It also seems the more defensive a position one might take to 'convince' another, the less affect it's going to have anyway. Which would lead me to beckon the question "Who's cause are you fighting?" [not literally you, just saying.]

If one posts specifically about a problem in their marriage and through their language it seems there's a lack of appreciation for or from their spouse, they may need a nudge in that direction, who knows? I think we're all just people doing the best we can here. No more, no less.


----------



## AFEH

Runs like Dog said:


> Does that cross come with its own nails?


I never looked at it that way.

My wife took “ownership” of the home side of things. Roles in our marriage were very delineated with her. She most certainly wasn’t pushy about it at all but at the same time she took her responsibilities seriously, in a nice way. And she was immensely reliable and dependable with the services she undertook. Immensely so. Like you know the sun’s coming up in the morning, you can guarantee it. I feel as a man married to her I was exceptionally blessed and somewhat spoilt. But I also think at the same time I was very deserving of her as my wife.

Her love languages are acts of service and gifts and she was exemplary at expressing her love in those ways. Her gifts were by no means always purchased but consisted of for example the best cakes and puddings anywhere on the planet.



So no she wasn’t sacrificing but rather I think she felt a bit insulted as my offer of help was taken as a criticism of the “state” of the house and that she couldn’t do the spring cleaning on her own. When in fact none of that was true. It’s a big four double bedroom house, three bathrooms, massive kitchen etc. and I simply just thought the two of us could enjoy ourselves giving it a spring clean, most especially as I no longer work for a living.


----------



## Syrum

Trenton said:


> Overall, let me just say...What I find really disturbing here is how many keep saying both need to be appreciated, respected and admired but we are spending most of our time talking about how admirable and respectable the man's role is and then undermining, under estimating and devaluing the role of the traditional SAHM's role.
> 
> It's no wonder that the dichotomy is the way it is. No one really wants to fix it.


So true.

I see so many men complain endlessly about women, yet clearly have no appreciation for and do not value traditional women's roles one bit. 

Ironic how things are turning out.


----------



## AFEH

My wife had no truck with victim feminism. One of my feminists friends thought she was wrong and that she should be “converted to the cause”. Much like what’s happening here. “Hey join us in our persecution of men!”. “If you are not with us then you are against us!”. “Can’t you just see how bad men really are!”.

But my wife got everything she wanted out of her life by being a very real, exceptionally feminine woman. She just saw no need for this victim feminism. I think that goes way back to her childhood. In that she deeply loved and respected her father, I know for a fact she modelled a lot of her beliefs and values on his beliefs and values.

I think it’s a pity if it’s kind of hate your father, hate all men type of thing. That’s walking through life with seriously big blinkers on.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> You really don't get it or care to.
> 
> Regardless, you should make up your mind on your wife. Is she the evil passive aggressive woman who has destroyed the chances your son has at being a man or is she the epitome of femininity who fed you graciously, cleaned up after you and gave you sex when you wanted it? That's quite the contradiction right there.


Maybe she was both. I hear women are good at multi-tasking


----------



## Halien

Deejo said:


> Maybe she was both. I hear women are good at multi-tasking


People are only defined with simple, non-contradictory personalities in straight-to-paperback fiction novels, or divorce court.


-- so said an editor, circa 1983, in her rejection letter. She said more, but I've spent 29 years trying to forget it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Syrum said:


> So true.
> 
> I see so many men complain endlessly about women, yet clearly have no appreciation for and do not value traditional women's roles one bit.
> 
> Ironic how things are turning out.


Just as many woman have no appreciation for the work around the house traditionally done by men. That work, such as lawn care, home repair, and auto repair, does not count as it is "fun" and "outdoors."

I actually see more women who work outside the home put down the work of SAHM than I see men putting it down. Even my neighbor, who is a very traditional, conservative man, is open about his admiration in the work his wife does running the home.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> Swap that. Let's say he did resent you and wouldn't let it go. Let's say he never came home and left you alone. Let's say he said things to you like, "What did you buy that for? It's my money. You don't buy anything without me knowing." Let's say he has to read books to try to manipulate you into sex and his entire day focuses around why you're not doing it. He treats your kids differently because he resents them too as he sees them as the reason why you don't want sex and he NEVER lets it go.


 I believe Heartsbeating had it right about I wouldn't be with someone like that, I don't think men & women should ever marry quickly...make sure you know the *character* deep within, know thier beliefs, their values, some men would just never act like this, it would be against everything in them. 

But I know that is not your point......Let me just say, I do not believe I would allow myself to "put up with" this type of behavior had it started surfacing....without demanding it be stopped, get counseling or I'd be leaving. 

IF I felt I was doing a good job with my household (something *I *was proud of), raising the kids, food on time, house in order (decently enough -give or take a few bad days here & there) , and he DAILY SPIT on it, he was just being a sour pussed whining begrudging oaf who was walking all over me- treating me like a doormat, didn't give a damn about my feelings, didn't feel I needed any of his time & attention.... Oh my , he would not at all want to deal with ME or my mouth in response. I am not someone would could sit idly by and deal with that. Oh my NO. Remember I am on the opposite spectrum of my sweet passive loving husband......I would fight like hell with a man like that.....he would want rid of me! Now mind you, I do not mind scrutinizing myself  if/when he may have a point though and talking it out thoroughly...(ex)...if I was overspending on the budget, If I was neglecting him sexually. Those are valid arguments. 

I wouldn't like his comments it is all "HIS MONEY", he would be better to say "OUR MONEY" and explain to me why my purchases are hurting our savings. *Attitude is everything. 

* Life is too short, both partners need to feel respected & loved -neither drowning in resentment, I am for divorce in many situations, I am not an unconditional love believer... We'd either get help (together) or we'd be over. I think some people learn best after they are Left in the dust, some should live alone, then they can take care of themselves. Let the reality sink in. 



> Then you asked him the very same question you just did and his answer was more like the replies of many of the men here, "I get you watch the kids and do dishes but I'm more important obviously. Without me you wouldn't have anything, you wouldn't have dishes to do and you wouldn't have a bed to sleep in. Everything you do is ridiculously easy, anyone can watch kids all day and browse the internet. I could do it with my eyes closed. You've no idea the sacrifices I make for this family."


 This is the "attitude" of a male chauvinist pig. (A male person who thinks women are merely objects to be used for pleasure, esthetic value or labour.)



> The jobs are as variable as the amount of couples that are out there (a SAHM could have a disabled child and a father could have a job he hates, etc.).


 I feel having a disabled child would put 100 times more of a hardship on a family, I would never dare suggest it was easy in such a situation...the wife would need alot more of her husbands participation-when he gets home. 



> If your stance is that one is by default better than the other (doesn't matter which you choose), you reinforce this idea that SAHM is simple as pie and Breadwinner = awesome guy.


 Let me state it this way .... I very much apprecaite the men who WANT to be sole breadwinners in this day & age & do value the SAHM as much as themselves , I find less & less men to have this attitude today because of how society is changing and yes, those type of men...for me are Awesome guys, very awesome in fact. They are a dying breed. Not the ones who are acting like Male chauvinist pigs though. No, they can go drown themselves somewhere...women should not touch them with a ten foot pole , doesn't matter how HOT they are, or how much $$ they have, they are not worth it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> Just as many woman have no appreciation for the work around the house traditionally done by men. That work, such as lawn care, home repair, and auto repair, does not count as it is "fun" and "outdoors."
> 
> I actually see more women who work outside the home put down the work of SAHM than I see men putting it down. Even my neighbor, who is a very traditional, conservative man, is open about his admiration in the work his wife does running the home.


Fun and outdoors? Whoever has that attitude has never mowed a lawn or pressure washed a driveway in Houston in July! 

Men might not be openly putting down SAHM's, until they are in court. Then the tune changes vastly. Take a cursory look around here. This is a small sample.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Fun and outdoors? Whoever has that attitude has never mowed a lawn or pressure washed a driveway in Houston in July!


I agree. Unfortunately, it does not stop those comments from being made. I suspect it is a "grass is greener" issue, with some men thinking how nice it must be do work inside and some women thinking it must be nice to be enjoying outdoors. Switch roles for a summer and see how much this would change.



> Men might not be openly putting down SAHM's, until they are in court. Then the tune changes vastly. Take a cursory look around here. This is a small sample.


They probably no more change their tune than the women in court who suddenly note how their husbands were never around, never did any chores, and were terrible fathers because they missed all their childrens school events during the day.

While we could probably play this all day , my point is merely that men don't have the monopoly on not appreciating their spouse. It goes both ways, despite what some posters think. It is human nature to note your own work and discount work by others, and everyone needs to be aware of this when evaulating the contributions of others.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> You really don't get it or care to.
> 
> Regardless, you should make up your mind on your wife. Is she the evil passive aggressive woman who has destroyed the chances your son has at being a man or is she the epitome of femininity who fed you graciously, cleaned up after you and gave you sex when you wanted it? That's quite the contradiction right there.


I would say that fits in the evil category.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is human nature to note your own work and discount work by others, and everyone needs to be aware of this when evaulating the contributions of others.


Yes. Two sides to every story.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Fun and outdoors? Whoever has that attitude has never mowed a lawn or pressure washed a driveway in Houston in July!
> .


I lived for a while in a place where it often averaged 100 degrees in the middle of summer. Now, where I currently live, its a toss up if I try to decide if that is worse than shovelling snow three days a week, and having to wear yaktrax cleats on my shoes just to make it from my car to the office door where I work. And because I drive a pickup truck, EVERYONE assumes that I have the time to stop and pull them out of the ditch if you have to go to work before the salt trucks run.

But seriously, my wife was a SAHM wife while the kids were young. She created a legacy, while I created a paycheck. There is no comparison.


----------



## nice777guy

Halien said:


> But seriously, my wife was a SAHM wife while the kids were young. She created a legacy, while I created a paycheck. There is no comparison.


Seems simple to me.

If one spouse is sitting on their rear end more than the other - then things aren't working.

Some SAHM's do a great job. Others honestly don't.

If you come home and the house is clean and dinner ready - then you get to do dishes - and then you can both sit down together afterwards and enjoy each others company and spend time with your children.


----------



## morituri

Halien said:


> But seriously, my wife was a SAHM wife while the kids were young. She created a legacy, while I created a paycheck. There is no comparison.


But it was that paycheck you created that made it possible for her to create that legacy. It would have been extremely hard for her as a single working mom to accomplish the same things she did as a married SAHM.

Despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, most women are not ok with having a husband who is a SAHD. Most women with SAHD husbands loose respect for them and eventually divorce them. Like it or not, men without a job are not very attractive to women.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

morituri said:


> But it was that paycheck you created that made it possible for her to create that legacy. It would have been extremely hard for her as a single working mom to accomplish the same things she did as a married SAHM.


It would also have been extremely difficult for Halien to get to the level he is now, if he didn't have a woman willing to put him and the family first.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It would also have been extremely difficult for Halien to get to the level he is now, if he didn't have a woman willing to put him and the family first.


Amen.

A SAHM means you can stay late to put in extra time on a project when your co-worker HAS to leave to pick up the kids. A SAHM means that you don't have to negotiate over who takes the children to their doctors appointments. It means you should have some time to relax in the evenings in a clean house - after eating a home cooked meal.


----------



## morituri

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It would also have been extremely difficult for Halien to get to the level he is now, if he didn't have a woman willing to put him and the family first.


Career wise? no necessarily, but the as far as the legacy she created of having a great family and which he is now enjoying? I absolutely agree with you.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

morituri said:


> Career wise? no necessarily, but the as far as the legacy she created of having a great family and which he is now enjoying? I absolutely agree with you.


Absolutely career wise. If he didn't have someone at home tending to his children, he wouldn't have the peace of mind to stay late, take on extra hours, corporate travel, etc.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> But seriously, my wife was a SAHM wife while the kids were young. She created a legacy, while I created a paycheck. There is no comparison.



This is a really beautiful comment. If God had intended anything in this role of raising families, it would be to look upon our partner's role through such eyes as this....to see such worthiness. I don't feel he is putting his role down at all in saying this either, just caring to lift up his wife, something we all need to "catch". 

My husband said to me the other day, that he sees no good in uplifting ourselves (He never does this), he thinks other people should do that, he asks, what is it worth if we do it ? Makes me think of this scripture .... (Proverbs 27:2) "Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips"



Tall Average Guy said:


> Just as many woman have no appreciation for the work around the house traditionally done by men. That work, such as lawn care, home repair, and auto repair, does not count as it is "fun" and "outdoors."


 I , for one, have a HUGE appreciation for what my husband does .....because I would SUCK at it and want to blow the garage up ....I thank God I am a woman........I often help my husband do this stuff & it is pure FRUSTRATION sometimes depending on the job he is doing......I have spent countless nights in the garage laying on the cold cement, holding the drop light, handing him tools, holding a pipe/brake line, managing the jack hoping the whole engine, or transmission won't fall on us, we always seem to run into another problem on the way to fix the original. He has made his own tools in a pinch to finish a job- which always amazes me. 

...Of course it is ME who gets all bent out of shape feeling "oh my God, we've done it now, it is going to have to be toe trucked to a Garage".....but he gets us out of it ....every time! ....may take a day or two -but he manages, and without loosing his cool ....unlike myself. 

One time he was out there, I wasn't helping him, and I heard what sounded like a gun shot (we live in the country, no big deal )...he comes in later & here he had the muffler explode on him, I can't remember what the heck he was doing. Once I backed out of the garage and pulled the whole bumper off the car, sometimes I have created work for him. 

I am overwhelmingly appreciative of his Handyman abilities. 

I am admittably even selfish to why I help him ....Cause I DO want his time....my reasoning...the quicker he gets done, the more time we have to spend together.


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

SimplyAmorous said:


> Once I backed out of the garage and pulled the whole bumper off the car



:scratchhead: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

nice777guy said:


> Amen.
> 
> A SAHM means you can stay late to put in extra time on a project when your co-worker HAS to leave to pick up the kids. A SAHM means that you don't have to negotiate over who takes the children to their doctors appointments. It means you should have some time to relax in the evenings in a clean house - after eating a home cooked meal.


It absolutely does, if the SAHM takes the job seriously. Most I know do, but I can think of one who does not. Frankly, the husband is successful in his work in spite of his wife.

I recall a very brief exchange I had with my wife 3-4 years ago. I was thanking her for some of the work she does around the house (it was a meal that she cooked for the family that turned out very well). After thanking me for the compliment, she threw an off hand comment over her shoulder as she started cleaning up: 

Your appreciation makes it easier for me.

I think back to that alot. I have never found a job or task that was not made a bit easier by the fact that others appreciated it. My wife appreciates that I work hard to prove money so that she can stay home and raise our children. That makes it a little easier to get up and do that work. I also try to show her my appreciation. I know when I do, she seems to take on those tasks with a bit more zeal.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> After thanking me for the compliment, she threw an off hand comment over her shoulder as she started cleaning up:
> 
> Your appreciation makes it easier for me.
> 
> I think back to that alot. I have never found a job or task that was not made a bit easier by the fact that others appreciated it. My wife appreciates that I work hard to prove money so that she can stay home and raise our children. That makes it a little easier to get up and do that work. I also try to show her my appreciation. I know when I do, she seems to take on those tasks with a bit more zeal.



* Your wife spoke a very important truth to you *! I never really thought about it before but I am very sure this is one of the reasons I thoroughly enjoy being what I am. 

How you made her feel....this IS the icing on the cake, this is the filling in the donut ...what makes our "daily grind" somehow very worthwhile, knowing our significant other recognizes our "*purpose*" , that what we set our hands too -brings them happiness......Generally people feel good when they "give".

If it is more "taking", whether they realize it or not, they will start to feel "hollow" inside. Even in the Giving, though we don't EXPECT to be rewarded or complimented...when we are validated for those little things, even if it is mundane & necessary and part of our roles- it somehow become less mundane & yes "EASIER" , with the world being a little brighter , 
like a well spring of "purpose" for us........just knowing what we set our hands too -is appreciated by another.... sure helps when it is our spouses!


----------



## Dexter Morgan

R.J. said:


> Oh Thank you. Now that I have your approval I can sleep at night.


Whatever smartass. Point was your original post painted you as a double standard woman.

You confirmed that wasn't the case and I liked what you had to say. Maybe you just said what you did to backpedal a little after what seemed to be somewhat of a misandrist rant.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

R.J. said:


> DM, how in any way, shape, or form have I suggested that a "man should just be breaking his back even if the wife gets to stay at home and eat bon bons on the couch?" Do you actually read before forming an opinion.


It was your attitude. Men have been the breadwinners for years, now we have a woman thats the breadwinner, but it shouldn't be? Why not? Why can't a woman be the breadwinner and the man stay at home? Not that it would be for me, just asking, why not?




> My entire thread is talking about unbalanced marriages. It's about men who don't contribute in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM in their marriages and would watch their wives struggle than to give them a hand.


Maybe I didn't read another post of your, but in your first post you said he doesn't contribute anything? If you are talking income, so what? Again, men have done it for years. Now I wouldn't feel good about myself as a man not bringing home the bacon, but whats good for the goose.....?

Now if you are saying he does absolutely no housework and plays video games all day or something, ok, thats different. But unless your husband is just a total loser, I highly doubt he doesn't perform at least some household duties. And if he is that much of a loser, why are you still with him if you have that little respect for him?




> I don't believe either spouse should be BURDENED with the responsibilities of doing everything.


I agree. Whoever stays home gets to take care of the house.




> There should be balance and respect of each other's roles in the household. I stated that SAHMs should take care of the home if their husbands are sole breadwinners (and vice versa). I even suggested that husbands whom are breadwinners should not only financially support the home, but also perform duties such as taking out trash, home and car maintenance, etc..
> 
> Therefore you tell me where I ever suggested that a SAHM should be able to sit all day, twirl her thumbs, and wait until her husband gets home from work to satisfy the home duties? READ BEFORE YOU SPEAK!


I read, again, it was your attitude, not what you said. I know you didn't say this is what a SAHM gets to do, but the anger in your post tells me you simply resent being the breadwinner.

So my apologies, you didn't say that, but your initial post did come off as having some double standards, seeing as men have dealt with this for years.


----------



## R.J.

Dexter Morgan said:


> Whatever smartass.


HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA...:rofl:


----------



## Halien

morituri said:


> But it was that paycheck you created that made it possible for her to create that legacy. It would have been extremely hard for her as a single working mom to accomplish the same things she did as a married SAHM.


I agree, but maybe I should've put the disclaimer in that we were both committed to a common message when it came to her staying at home. For us, they needed to see that I considered her role to be vital, just as mine. I did speak privately with my wife when I felt that she forgot about my sacrifices, but plenty of times, she was right when she thought that she bore the lion's share of the load at times. My wife is a perfectionist. My point is that her role left an intentional, lasting legacy at a foundational level. She built memories with them that leave me feeling envious and proud. I feel like I left my own legacy, sure, but I feel like it was more like icing on the cake. Most of these became more relevant as they moved into the teenage years, because I taught them not to sweat the small stuff, and to be willing to follow bold dreams. My son spent his summers counseling children in a camp for handicapped children by the time he was 14, and my daughter published two works of fiction in national journals before she was 17. Not trying to say they are perfect, but they were reared intentionally, with purpose.


----------



## okeydokie

i just came home from two days on the road, my SAHM is sick (again..ugh) and the house was a disaster, i mean a freaking hell hole. i spent an hour and a half cleaning the kitchen, taking out the garbage, putting up laundry and sweeping just to bring it up to so so caliber. i do this quite often as my wife is often sick (migraines, sinus, colds). i also went and got her some medicine and i will cook dinner and clean it up and attend a parent meeting at school tonight. unfortunately it doesnt take her being sick for this to happen, the house is never really clean and she has some messes that would scare the pizz out of you. she is not very good at taking care of the house, kids she is a pro.


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## Deejo

okeydokie said:


> i just came home from two days on the road, my SAHM is sick (again..ugh) and the house was a disaster, i mean a freaking hell hole. i spent an hour and a half cleaning the kitchen, taking out the garbage, putting up laundry and sweeping just to bring it up to so so caliber. i do this quite often as my wife is often sick (migraines, sinus, colds). i also went and got her some medicine and i will cook dinner and clean it up and attend a parent meeting at school tonight. unfortunately it doesnt take her being sick for this to happen, the house is never really clean and she has some messes that would scare the pizz out of you. she is not very good at taking care of the house, kids she is a pro.


I know that story ...


----------



## nice777guy

okeydokie said:


> i just came home from two days on the road, my SAHM is sick (again..ugh) and the house was a disaster, i mean a freaking hell hole. i spent an hour and a half cleaning the kitchen, taking out the garbage, putting up laundry and sweeping just to bring it up to so so caliber. i do this quite often as my wife is often sick (migraines, sinus, colds). i also went and got her some medicine and i will cook dinner and clean it up and attend a parent meeting at school tonight. unfortunately it doesnt take her being sick for this to happen, the house is never really clean and she has some messes that would scare the pizz out of you. she is not very good at taking care of the house, kids she is a pro.


I know that story...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Yeah and I know the story of never ending work, not punching out after 8 hours, cleaning, laundry, vomit, blood, diapers, etc., and apparently in doing all this, contributed nothing to my husband's career.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yeah and I know the story of never ending work, not punching out after 8 hours, cleaning, laundry, vomit, blood, diapers, etc., and apparently in doing all this, contributed nothing to my husband's career.


So selfish!

Did you know in most states, you would be entitled to HALF of HIS estate if you split?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> So selfish!
> 
> Did you know in most states, you would be entitled to HALF of HIS estate if you split?


Did you know in most states, he is entitled to HALF of MY estate if we split?


----------



## R.J.

Dexter Morgan said:


> It was your attitude. Men have been the breadwinners for years, now we have a woman thats the breadwinner, but it shouldn't be? Why not? Why can't a woman be the breadwinner and the man stay at home? Not that it would be for me, just asking, why not?
> SAHD works for some families, but it just wouldn't work for me. That's partially because of my past experiences. I watched my father force my mother into that predicament and she worked herself sick. They never agreed for him to stay at home, and therefore, he made the decision to do so regardless. Eventhough he maintained the household chores (laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc.), there was still a lot of resentment in our household. My mom was forced to work 2 jobs to support our home while my dad sat at home.
> 
> Then I got married to someone that I thought was hardworking and would be a great provider. However, he did the same thing to me that my dad did to my mom. He forced me to take on roles that I never agreed to manage. The only difference between my husband and father is that my father managed the household chores whereas my husband did NOTHING. He wouldn't cook, clean, pay a single bill, or anything else.
> 
> Therefore, my own personal experiences has prevented me from even considering my husband to stay at home.
> 
> Maybe I didn't read another post of your, but in your first post you said he doesn't contribute anything? If you are talking income, so what? Again, men have done it for years. Now I wouldn't feel good about myself as a man not bringing home the bacon, but whats good for the goose.....?
> Even if I did suggest that the man doesn't contribute anything including income, how could you not see that as an issue? Again, if that arrangement is agreed upon by both spouses then that's fine. However, if the husband doesn't contribute financially solely by choice, then how is this ok? As I've mentioned before, my thread is about men who don't contribute at all in their households. Not by arrangement, but by choice. So I ask again, how is it ok for a husband to sit there and watch his wife take care of everything and still be able to feel good about himself?
> 
> Now if you are saying he does absolutely no housework and plays video games all day or something, ok, thats different. But unless your husband is just a total loser, I highly doubt he doesn't perform at least some household duties. And if he is that much of a loser, why are you still with him if you have that little respect for him?
> Again, the issue that I have with you is that you're forming all of these opinions without reading all of my posts. I know that there are several, but don't judge, attack, or assume anything about me or my situation without having read all of my responses. Once you've done so and you still feel the same way (which I'm VERY confident that you won't) then feel free to challenge me.
> I've mentioned 1000x's already that part of the reason I created this thread was to obtain feedback from others as to why they thought certain husbands are content with watching their wives struggle oppose to simply giving her a helping hand. I was hoping to find a different perspective about the entire situation. Perhaps there was something that I wasn't seeing or considering that may help me (and several other wives on TAM) to understand our husband's lack in support. However, although I received many responses, none of them helped me form a different perspective aside from my original. Therefore, I've filed for divorce and have accepted that this situation my husband has forced me into isn't working for me.
> 
> 
> I agree. Whoever stays home gets to take care of the house.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read, again, it was your attitude, not what you said. I know you didn't say this is what a SAHM gets to do, but the anger in your post tells me you simply resent being the breadwinner.
> I realize that every man on this planet doesn't make the type of money that I make. I understand that there's a strong possibility that even after my divorce I may not find a man making more than or equal to my income. I'm completely ok with that as long as he does his best to be as equal a contributor as his resources allows him to be. Therefore, I don't understand how "…the anger in…" my posts tells you that I "…simply resent being the breadwinner." I very simply resent taking care of a grown man who sits there and watches me break my back to do so.
> 
> So my apologies, you didn't say that, but your initial post did come off as having some double standards, seeing as men have dealt with this for years.


I get it.


----------



## okeydokie

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yeah and I know the story of never ending work, not punching out after 8 hours, cleaning, laundry, vomit, blood, diapers, etc., and apparently in doing all this, contributed nothing to my husband's career.


yeah, i know the story of someone that has no real pressure to perform their job, they arent going to be fired, there are no performance reviews, no deadlines, no competition for the job, there is nobody around all day to watch what goes on, no business travel, no need to prioritize work.

btw, no diapers in my house, kids all in school and have been for years. i truly believe that SAHM with young kids is a different animal all together. i didnt feel the same way during those times, we were both worn to a frazzle. my youngest has been i school for 7 years, you would think some time was freed up to handle some of this stuff


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> yeah, i know the story of someone that has no real pressure to perform their job, they arent going to be fired, there are no performance reviews, no deadlines, no competition for the job, there is nobody around all day to watch what goes on, no business travel, no need to prioritize work.


You just summed up EXACTLY what is the perception of so many people about SAHM's. You really do think your work is more important and minimize what SAHM's do. I see it time and time again here. Typically tinged with a "my money" attitude and a heaping of "my contribution means more" and a whole lot of "why doesn't she want sex with me?".


----------



## okeydokie

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You just summed up EXACTLY what is the perception of so many people about SAHM's. You really do think your work is more important and minimize what SAHM's do. I see it time and time again here. Typically tinged with a "my money" attitude and a heaping of "my contribution means more".


she could go out and get a job to equal it up some. nothing stopping her, or is there?


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## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> she could go out and get a job to equal it up some. nothing stopping her, or is there?


So it is only equal if it is financially contributing? There is no value in someone who doesn't earn a paycheck. I hope you never get seriously sick, injured or outsourced.


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## okeydokie

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So it is only equal if it is financially contributing? There is no value in someone who doesn't earn a paycheck. I hope you never get seriously sick, injured or outsourced.


i said that in response to your comment: 

"You just summed up EXACTLY what is the perception of so many people about SAHM's. You really do think your work is more important and minimize what SAHM's do. I see it time and time again here. Typically tinged with a "my money" attitude and a heaping of "my contribution means more"."


i really dont think what I do is more important, but it is very obviously more productive as evidenced by the condition of my home on a regular basis. and this conversation stemmed off of what a working man does when he gets off work. i, and many others, dont just come home and flop on our asses whilest the little woman fetches our pipe and slippers and gets dinner ready. the point being that i dont have that expectation of her.

if my wife felt that i had the idea that i am more important than her because i earn all the money, she could kill that perception immediately by taking a job outside the home. there is NOTHING stopping her but her. in fact, knowing her as i do, if she wanted to bad enough she would get a job, or volunteer or whatever she wanted to do.

ya see, we already split most of the housework. i work 50 hours + a week, she is home alone for 40 hours a week. you do the math


----------



## SimplyAmorous

You guys are all speaking out of your own experiences here , and getting upset with each other .

Okeydokie just expressed coming home to a disaster freaking zone, he is used to this, his wife doesn't have little ones, she uses every excuse in the book (migraines, sinus, colds), why shouldn't he be upset? I'd be upset too if I was him!


If SAHM's are getting a Bad rap, it is because some are like this!! Deejo and Nice Guy piped in saying..."I know that story" .... so there it goes, the perceptions based on their own personal experiences in life. 

If there is any reason why SAHM's get a bad rap, it is become of how some of them conduct themselves. Period. And we read the stories on here, I want to shake every one of those women, but for me to say that, I look bad too!

Kinda like if you hear someone grow up in a Trailer Court, some people automatically think "Trailer Trash". 

If I couldn't keep up with what I felt I needed to do, I would feel like crap, I'd be apologizing all over the place and I would be wanting to make up for it-to my husband. He knows that is not me. I don't think it should be common place for any of us to fall down on "our duties", we need better excuses than having a silly cold... men don't miss work over a cold, and if they do... shame shame on them.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> i said that in response to your comment:
> 
> "You just summed up EXACTLY what is the perception of so many people about SAHM's. You really do think your work is more important and minimize what SAHM's do. I see it time and time again here. Typically tinged with a "my money" attitude and a heaping of "my contribution means more"."
> 
> 
> i really dont think what I do is more important, but it is very obviously more productive as evidenced by the condition of my home on a regular basis. and this conversation stemmed off of what a working man does when he gets off work. i, and many others, dont just come home and flop on our asses whilest the little woman fetches our pipe and slippers and gets dinner ready. the point being that i dont have that expectation of her.
> 
> if my wife felt that i had the idea that i am more important than her because i earn all the money, she could kill that perception immediately by taking a job outside the home. there is NOTHING stopping her but her. in fact, knowing her as i do, if she wanted to bad enough she would get a job, or volunteer or whatever she wanted to do.
> 
> ya see, we already split most of the housework. i work 50 hours + a week, she is home alone for 40 hours a week. you do the math


You contradict yourself so much, it's like John Kerry all over again.  
We got it, your wife is a slob. As was Deejo's and Nice Guys and SAHM's don't have deadlines or pressure.


----------



## nice777guy

okeydokie said:


> i just came home from two days on the road, my SAHM is sick (again..ugh) and the house was a disaster, i mean a freaking hell hole. i spent an hour and a half cleaning the kitchen, taking out the garbage, putting up laundry and sweeping just to bring it up to so so caliber. i do this quite often as my wife is often sick (migraines, sinus, colds). i also went and got her some medicine and i will cook dinner and clean it up *and attend a parent meeting at school tonight.* unfortunately it doesnt take her being sick for this to happen, the house is never really clean and she has some messes that would scare the pizz out of you. she is not very good at taking care of the house, kids she is a pro.


TRBE - focus on the line that's bolded.

No SAHM worth her weight in gold would - on a regular basis - miss school-related activities. Now - I'm reading some of my own history into Okey's story here. But my attendance record at school related functions has been as good or better than my "disabled" wife's over the last several years.

Had some of these things been advertised as "School Hog Rally" - well - who knows...


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You contradict yourself so much, it's like John Kerry all over again.
> We got it, your wife is a slob. As was Deejo's and Nice Guys and SAHM's don't have deadlines or pressure.


Ugh.

Nearly everyone has pressure and nearly everyone has deadlines. Some people respond. Some get migraines and hide under the covers.

My wife did an important job very poorly - and I enabled her poor performance. She seems to be doing a little bit better now that we are apart.

Its not the ROLE of the SAHM - its the person.

I'm an Accountant. Some of us are great - some are lousy. After Enron, you would have thought us to all be evil based on the highly visible actions of a few lousy cheats.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> You guys are all speaking out of your own experiences here , and getting upset with each other .
> 
> Okeydokie just expressed coming home to a disaster freaking zone, he is used to this, his wife doesn't have little ones, she uses every excuse in the book (migraines, sinus, colds), why shouldn't he be upset? I'd be upset too if I was him!
> 
> 
> If SAHM's are getting a Bad rap, it is because some are like this!! Deejo and Nice Guy piped in saying..."I know that story" .... so there it goes, the perceptions based on their own personal experiences in life.
> 
> If there is any reason why SAHM's get a bad rap, it is become of how some of them conduct themselves. Period. And we read the stories on here, I want to shake every one of those women, but for me to say that, I look bad too!
> 
> Kinda like if you hear someone grow up in a Trailer Court, some people automatically think "Trailer Trash".
> 
> If I couldn't keep up with what I felt I needed to do, I would feel like crap, I'd be apologizing all over the place and I would be wanting to make up for it-to my husband. He knows that is not me. I don't think it should be common place for any of us to fall down on "our duties", we need better excuses than having a silly cold... men don't miss work over a cold, and if they do... shame shame on them.


Upset? I am having a discussion.
I too was pointing out my experience that I was not a lazy mother. That got shot down as not as important since I didn't have time constraints, etc. 3 people saying their wives were lazy is not the totality of SAHM's and that is what I was pointing out. 
You only sympathized with the men though. Wonder why that is?


----------



## okeydokie

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You contradict yourself so much, it's like John Kerry all over again.
> We got it, your wife is a slob. As was Deejo's and Nice Guys and SAHM's don't have deadlines or pressure.


contradict? how?

let me just cut thru the crap. my wife has it made, ok.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Upset? I am having a discussion.
> I too was pointing out my experience that I was not a lazy mother. That got shot down as not as important since I didn't have time constraints, etc. 3 people saying their wives were lazy is not the totality of SAHM's and that is what I was pointing out.
> You only sympathized with the men though. Wonder why that is?


Who shot you down? Your H - or someone here shot your story down?

On the flipside, my Mother was - for years - a very active SAHM. My daughter's BFF is a SAHM. VERY involved in school - her house is clean - sounds like she cooks (based on what my D says after sleeping over) - and she's as nice as she can be.


----------



## okeydokie

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Upset? I am having a discussion.
> I too was pointing out my experience that I was not a lazy mother. That got shot down as not as important since I didn't have time constraints, etc. 3 people saying their wives were lazy is not the totality of SAHM's and that is what I was pointing out.
> You only sympathized with the men though. Wonder why that is?


nobody is calling you lazy, why get butthurt about my issues with my wife. i feel like she could shoot puppies with a shotgun and you would defend her becauses he is a woman. it =s sickening.

i never have even intimated that all SAHM are this way, i know better


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> You guys are all speaking out of your own experiences here , and getting upset with each other .
> 
> Okeydokie just expressed coming home to a disaster freaking zone, he is used to this, his wife doesn't have little ones, she uses every excuse in the book (migraines, sinus, colds), why shouldn't he be upset? I'd be upset too if I was him!
> 
> 
> If SAHM's are getting a Bad rap, it is because some are like this!! Deejo and Nice Guy piped in saying..."I know that story" .... so there it goes, the perceptions based on their own personal experiences in life.
> 
> If there is any reason why SAHM's get a bad rap, it is become of how some of them conduct themselves. Period. And we read the stories on here, I want to shake every one of those women, but for me to say that, I look bad too!
> 
> Kinda like if you hear someone grow up in a Trailer Court, some people automatically think "Trailer Trash".
> 
> If I couldn't keep up with what I felt I needed to do, I would feel like crap, I'd be apologizing all over the place and I would be wanting to make up for it-to my husband. He knows that is not me. I don't think it should be common place for any of us to fall down on "our duties", we need better excuses than having a silly cold... men don't miss work over a cold, and if they do... shame shame on them.


What you say is absolutely true but logic and reason simply does not work with people who see themselves and women in general as “victims of men”.

You may like to look at the Karpman Drama Triangle Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which in some ways describes the drama that’s going on here. It’s one of the more unhealthy games people play.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You only sympathized with the men though. Wonder why that is?


 Please do not misunderstand me, this has NOTHING at all to do with gender.... I sympathize with these men simply because if I was in their shoes -given what they have described here ....... I would feel the same as them. 

And when it comes to RJ's rant on this forum, I totally totally sympathize with her also, what she is dealing with -with a dead beat husband is Inexcusable to me. She is likely doing the best thing in divorcing this man. Not all men are wonderful. 

I also watched my Father In Law , how it affected his marraige with a Hoarder wife...in my opinion, he was much too nice to her.....gave her too much, she never worked a day & spent every dime hoarding the house up, she wanted new carpet, she wanted to move, she wanted this, she wanted that...It blew my mind. I'm talking the man built a 3 stall garage, give her a span of 10 yrs- she had each stall filled to the ceiling, there is a path getting to the bathroom, some rooms can not be gotten into, the house is a fire hazard, she would put the TV show to shame. 

She used to want MY sympahty, I had to hold my tongue....I felt bad for HIM, never her. How could she even ask for something when she could not take the responsibility to keep what she had in order.....Blows my mind. 

I have said to myself ....I should stay away from the housekeeping threads, because when I post, I piss the women off....should I be silenced? 

I favor whomever seems to be giving the most in the marriage generally. LIke R.J.... *it IS about Balance to me*. 

I have already described to everyone here in as much detail as I can why I feel BLESSED to be able to stay at home and do what I do.... when I see other women take advantage of that.... Yes, it irritates me. It also makes other SAH's look bad, why would I want that.

Makes me embarrassed to admit I am among them.


----------



## okeydokie

TRBE, why do you get offended if someone make generalizations of women when you actually do the same? why do you defend women in general when discussion points are pointed toward only one?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> nobody is calling you lazy, why get butthurt about my issues with my wife. i feel like she could shoot puppies with a shotgun and you would defend her becauses he is a woman. it =s sickening.
> 
> i never have even intimated that all SAHM are this way, i know better


I wasn't defending your wife at all. She sounds horrid. I was saying that not all SAHM's are like that, despite the 3 examples here. When I pointed that out you said/implied that because deadlines and such don't exist, an at home person doesn't have the same pressure which I believe to be false. I am not taking up for anybody, except myself and my situation. Posting my experience, as did you. 

AFEH, if you want to insult me and call me victim, do it directly not passive aggressively. That way I can defend myself and your baseless claims.


----------



## FirstYearDown

SimplyAmorous said:


> You guys are all speaking out of your own experiences here , and getting upset with each other .
> 
> Okeydokie just expressed coming home to a disaster freaking zone, he is used to this, his wife doesn't have little ones, she uses every excuse in the book (migraines, sinus, colds), why shouldn't he be upset? I'd be upset too if I was him!
> 
> 
> If SAHM's are getting a Bad rap, it is because some are like this!! Deejo and Nice Guy piped in saying..."I know that story" .... so there it goes, the perceptions based on their own personal experiences in life.
> 
> If there is any reason why SAHM's get a bad rap, it is become of how some of them conduct themselves. Period. And we read the stories on here, I want to shake every one of those women, but for me to say that, I look bad too!
> 
> Kinda like if you hear someone grow up in a Trailer Court, some people automatically think "Trailer Trash".
> 
> If I couldn't keep up with what I felt I needed to do, I would feel like crap, I'd be apologizing all over the place and I would be wanting to make up for it-to my husband. He knows that is not me. I don't think it should be common place for any of us to fall down on "our duties", we need better excuses than having a silly cold... men don't miss work over a cold, and if they do... shame shame on them.


:iagree:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/32525-please-explain-lazy-housewives.html

I would also add that hubbies who have SAHM's should never refer to the family earnings as "his money". That viewpoint is just as harmful and ridiculous as SAHM's who keep dirty homes.

The arthritis in my left hand is terrible just now, because of the cold winter weather. I _still _do my bit around the apartment; I only work and attend school a total of _24 hours a week!_ Not counting time for assignments, I have more than enough hours in the day to keep our little place neat and have dinner on the table every night.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> Please do not misunderstand me, this has NOTHING at all to do with gender.... I sympathize with these men simply because if I was in their shoes -given what they have described here ....... I would feel the same as them.
> 
> And when it comes to RJ's rant on this forum, I totally totally sympathize with her also, what she is dealing with -with a dead beat husband is Inexcusable to me. She is likely doing the best thing in divorcing this man. Not all men are wonderful.
> 
> I also watched my Father In Law , how it affected his marraige with a Hoarder wife...in my opinion, he was much too nice to her.....gave her too much, she never worked a day & spent every dime hoarding the house up, she wanted new carpet, she wanted to move, she wanted this, she wanted that...It blew my mind. I'm talking the man built a 3 stall garage, give her a span of 10 yrs- she had each stall filled to the ceiling, there is a path getting to the bathroom, some rooms can not be gotten into, the house is a fire hazard, she would put the TV show to shame.
> 
> She used to want MY sympahty, I had to hold my tongue....I felt bad for HIM, never her. How could she even ask for something when she could not take the responsibility to keep what she had in order.....Blows my mind.
> 
> I have said to myself ....I should stay away from the housekeeping threads, because when I post, I piss the women off....should I be silenced?
> 
> I favor whomever seems to be giving the most in the marriage generally. LIke R.J.... *it IS about Balance to me*.
> 
> I have already described to everyone here in as much detail as I can why I feel BLESSED to be able to stay at home and do what I do.... when I see other women take advantage of that.... Yes, it irritates me. It also makes other SAH's look bad, why would I want that.
> 
> Makes me embarrassed to admit I am among them.


SA, you didn't upset me at all and I too feel badly for anybody who is living with a partner who doesn't carry their fair share. Period.
After 3 people posted about their lazy SAHW's, I posted my side from my experience when I was a struggling SAHM and work was non-stop. 
Why on Earth would you stay away from housekeeping threads?! Your contribution is just as valuable as anybody else here and we are the sum of our experiences. My experience was that being a SAHM was harder FOR ME than when I went to work full time outside the home. That in no way means that full time workers have it easier. Not at all. Just as a stay at home person who does little certainly doesn't have it harder than a full time outside worker. 
I think I need to change my wording. I gave the impression that these 3 women should be given a pass at laziness because they are mothers and that was not my intent at all. In fact, I have stated many times that if you have the luxury of staying at home....you better pull your weight. Again, what I was pointing out is that those 3 are not examples of what I have normally experienced. Damn wording!


----------



## Runs like Dog

You must most of you be terribly young. Mom work should decrease pretty significantly after the kids hit high school. At that point Mom can go to work and still find the extra cash to hire a cleaning service once a week for at least SOME of the chores. Please don't tell me Mothering continues @ 100% till your kids are in their mid 20's or that it's entirely normal if it does.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

FirstYearDown said:


> :iagree:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/32525-please-explain-lazy-housewives.html
> 
> I would also add that hubbies who have SAHM's should never refer to the family earnings as "his money". That viewpoint is just as harmful and ridiculous as SAHM's who keep dirty homes.
> 
> The arthritis in my left hand is terrible just now, because of the cold winter weather. I _still _do my bit around the apartment; I only work and attend school a total of _24 hours a week!_ Not counting time for assignments, I have more than enough hours in the day to keep our little place neat and have dinner on the table every night.


Agreed. Just so nobody accuses me of taking sides, I have seen a lazy housewife. Is it the norm? Not in my experience but I did attend a children's party a few years ago and saw it with my own eyes.
This woman lived in a mansion. I mean full on 3 story mansion in the richest part of Houston. When my son and I arrived she was drinking wine, chatting up with all her friends while a catering company was busy in the vast kitchen making...(drumroll), peanut butter and jelly sandwiches cut in to interesting shapes and shoving them in a catering box, with juice, cut apples and a cookie. 8 kids where at this party. EIGHT. You mean to tell me she couldn't handle the task of making sandwiches? Ridiculous. Anyways, in getting to know her a little better, she claimed she "did everything" citing childcare for her one child (she had a nanny), housework (she had a maid), errands (SHE had an assistant), outside maintenance (landscaping service). You get the picture. My jaw just hung to the floor and she rounded out my disgust by openly moaning that her husband wasn't around enough and was "neglecting" her. Um, honey....your husband isn't around much because he has to work his ass off to support you and your inability to do a damn thing for yourself! 
She might be extreme but yes, lazy people exist.


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## Halien

Runs like Dog said:


> You must most of you be terribly young. Mom work should decrease pretty significantly after the kids hit high school. At that point Mom can go to work and still find the extra cash to hire a cleaning service once a week for at least SOME of the chores. Please don't tell me Mothering continues @ 100% till your kids are in their mid 20's or that it's entirely normal if it does.


In many career fields, the decision to step out of the work force has long term implications, making it very hard to explain the missing years when trying to get back in. My wife worked to maintain her credentials in a field that does not focus on a career succession plan, but was very fearful of being able to handle the workload going back in. She says that she would've never made it if I wasn't very supportive of her. Still, she started back at a job that was well below her earnings potential. Also, I made drastically more in the retirement plan while her retirement was going nowhere. I don't think that a person can be dismissive about how much courage it takes to get back into the career. Her career is not the norm, but I think her fears were. I once jokingly told her that I sneezed and missed her automatic deposit of her paycheck in the bank, and I think I spent the night on the sofa. Not my best moment.


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## SimplyAmorous

Therealbrighteyes said:


> My experience was that being a SAHM was harder FOR ME than when I went to work full time outside the home. That in no way means that full time workers have it easier. Not at all.


 I've heard other Moms say this, I think some feel like caged animals at home-they hate it. We should do what makes us happiest cause that will = happier parents overall. I am a "home body" at heart , I am sure this helps me.... but I can fully understand what you are saying. THough I still think it would be harder to work and have kids -but who cares what I think - I am not putting anyone down by saying that, it is more of a lift up- kuddos to them who do SO very much....for me I would find it harder and more stressful. 



> In fact, I have stated many times that if you have the luxury of staying at home....you better pull your weight.


 I couldn't be on a firmer page with you than this sentence! I also look upon it as a "LUXURY"...I personally prayed for the ability to be able to stay home & still we could pay all our bills, sacrifices were made but it is still what I/we deeply wanted - I don't -nor ever will take the role lightly. 

Many moms wish they had the ability to do just that -but for whatever reason, health care bills, school debt, they can not do it ...I watched a Mom cry in my Mops group over this, she makes more than her husband, they are falling behind in debt -she has to do what has to be done..but still it rips her heart out -she feels she is missing a part of their childhood. 



> Again, what I was pointing out is that those 3 are not examples of what I have experienced nor seen in my life. Damn wording!


 I think they all misunderstood you then. Glad you cleard that up. I am sure the men are too !


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## Runs like Dog

Halien said:


> In many career fields, the decision to step out of the work force has long term implications, making it very hard to explain the missing years when trying to get back in.


Find a new career then. A doctor who's working and who hasn't kept current their own education is out of step inside of 6-12 months. And that's for people who are DOING that job. Taking 15 years off just means you need to pick something close but not the same thing to do. And if you don't earn what you would have had you not stopped working why would that shock you?


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## Runs like Dog

Anyway the real issue isn't did you work, or are you completely happy with that decision. The real issue is if you're completely miserable with the outcome of your decision either make a new one or shut the hell up. My law school grad member of the Bar in several states in good standing wife who's never held a job ever is fine, and I'm fine. But please please by all that is holy please STFU and stop whining about it. Stop complaining about money. Stop grumbling and hissing. OR get up off your fat ass and get a job. OR bang your head on the wall. Pick any of those things.


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## Therealbrighteyes

SA,
I do think staying at home is a luxury, if that's what you want. In my case, I stayed home because frankly I couldn't earn enough to pay for childcare in California. I didn't view it as a luxury at the time. It made more sense financially for me to stay home and I freely say it was an experience and one I am thankful I had. Had I not had that experience, I probably would have been like one of the mothers your described as feeling like I missed out. Kind of a grass is greener thing, I think. I too have met so many women who would KILL to stay home fulltime with their children and it is sad to see them struggle. I HAVE had the luxury of both sides and I prefer to work full time outside the home.


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## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> My point is...your husband didn't do that. He stayed the course and you came around. Perhaps more men need to follow his lead. Can he write a book perhaps?



OH my God, did you make me laugh out loud with this comment !!! :rofl::rofl::rofl: My kids just asked me what is so funny! Oh my NO, my husband can hardly write a sentence, I tell him all I want for Christmas is a ratty peice of paper with some heartfelt words written on it - and he has trouble with this. I joke all the time... I can write a book, he can hardly write a sentence.... We are very opposite in many ways. 

It comes down to "temperment". That's it... HE IS his temperment.....he is passive and he is a Pleaser at heart.... want a man like him , look for a "Introverted Sensing Feeling Judging"...but I warn you, they are no ball of fire. ISFJ Profile (when I read this the 1st time, It blew me away- all him!)

His temperment is the same as Mother Teresas for goodness sakes! If I ever get sick, I know I got the perfect Caretaker husband. I think I recall reading only about 8% of all men are this temperment, rare....yes. 

No wonder I seem like more the man, I am a cross between a Colin Powell/ Martha Stewart -a little bossy and take charge type. You think I would be as patient as my husband had I been in his shoes all those years... I would have raised the roof off the house. 

Hey Trenton, I have to tell you something.... I terribly agree with you that it would be best for our children for more moms to stay at home, I feel the same, I think the money/ the social status is less important -for those vital younger years. 

Nothing at all controversial with me about your post, I loved it !


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## Twofaces

It doesnt matter what your husband seems to think this is ok in this matter. It is up to you as to what is and is not acceptable. You must set the boundaries. Please, do not think that they are " just texting". Im sure that somewhere in you, you know this is not true. Follow your gut, trust your instinct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

Runs like Dog said:


> Find a new career then. A doctor who's working and who hasn't kept current their own education is out of step inside of 6-12 months. And that's for people who are DOING that job. Taking 15 years off just means you need to pick something close but not the same thing to do. And if you don't earn what you would have had you not stopped working why would that shock you?


Yeah, since she's the little woman, she should be pleased as punch to give up the career dreams that a man takes for granted? The point was that being a SAHM mom often takes incredible courage, and we should be more supportive of what she goes through instead of casually dismissing the fact that she can actually have a career dream, but makes a big sacrifice for her children. While she wasn't a physician, she was a nurse practicioner, and recovered the lost skills within a year, since she kept up the credentials, even though she never believed that she could. Now, three days a week, she makes just under a six figure salary, and you think that such a person should be okay working as a receptionist in the same practice that she could be leading?

I think that this is part of the hurt that TRBE has been trying to convey. She made sacrifices, putting aside her career, and her husband is pretty oblivious to all of that. People will often be quick to equate it to the easy life without recognizing that to a woman, it can represent setting her dreams on a shelf when she looks back, and great fear looking forward, to the future.

I'll get off my soapbox. Its just that we hear too much complaining about wives, when at the end of the day, most of us think of little else but the pursuit of the same woman we complained about.


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## I Know

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Absolutely career wise. If he didn't have someone at home tending to his children, he wouldn't have the peace of mind to stay late, take on extra hours, corporate travel, etc.


Ah yes. There is nothing as great as staying late at the office, putting in a bunch of overtime, doing work that sucks the life out of you. Meanwhile the SAHM gets to draw smiley faces with the kids and go to the park. It's no wonder men die 7 years earlier than women.


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## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> My husband is INTP which he found out at work recently in a meeting where they did this kind of testing (weird). I am ENTJ. We are apparently compatible and in truth I feel I am lucky to be with him. We work it despite some bumpy hiccups.


I found this link you might find very interesting >> INTP + ENTJ relationships, compatibility


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## nice777guy

I Know said:


> Ah yes. There is nothing as great as staying late at the office, putting in a bunch of overtime, doing work that sucks the life out of you. Meanwhile the SAHM gets to draw smiley faces with the kids and go to the park. It's no wonder men die 7 years earlier than women.


Spend 50 hours ALONE with 2 or more young children...walk a mile in their shoes...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

I Know said:


> Ah yes. There is nothing as great as staying late at the office, putting in a bunch of overtime, doing work that sucks the life out of you. Meanwhile the SAHM gets to draw smiley faces with the kids and go to the park. It's no wonder men die 7 years earlier than women.


You sound awesome!!!!!!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Halien said:


> Yeah, since she's the little woman, she should be pleased as punch to give up the career dreams that a man takes for granted? The point was that being a SAHM mom often takes incredible courage, and we should be more supportive of what she goes through instead of casually dismissing the fact that she can actually have a career dream, but makes a big sacrifice for her children. While she wasn't a physician, she was a nurse practicioner, and recovered the lost skills within a year, since she kept up the credentials, even though she never believed that she could. Now, three days a week, she makes just under a six figure salary, and you think that such a person should be okay working as a receptionist in the same practice that she could be leading?
> 
> I think that this is part of the hurt that TRBE has been trying to convey. She made sacrifices, putting aside her career, and her husband is pretty oblivious to all of that. People will often be quick to equate it to the easy life without recognizing that to a woman, it can represent setting her dreams on a shelf when she looks back, and great fear looking forward, to the future.
> 
> I'll get off my soapbox. Its just that we hear too much complaining about wives, when at the end of the day, most of us think of little else but the pursuit of the same woman we complained about.


I'm a victim, remember? 
I find it incredible that AFEH screams left and right about how his wife is the cause of all his ills. He is just a victim of her. He called me out in a passive aggressive way, a behavior he could not stand in his wife. Instead of being direct, he responded the way he did, responding to another poster instead of me. Kind of like the patron of a restaurant complaining loudly to all who can hear that the food isn't good enough...instead of directly telling the waiter or chef. Oh wait, I'm acting just like AFEH! Just lowering myself to his level. 
I am no victim. Not at all. I am smart, witty, funny and I can handle anything life throws at me. I do not blame anybody for my shortcomings, I own them. I am aware of things I need to work on and have no problem saying that I am broken in many ways. Do I blame others for that? No!
Where AFEH fell off the rails was when he said if a job is something you love, it isn't a job. Apparently those who love what they do aren't actually working. My husband LOVES what he does. Loves it. Is it stressful? Hell yes. He is in charge of countless people. I guess according to AFEH, unless he toils away at a job he loathes, it isn't work. Wait for him to change his stance, now that it involves a man in a high powered job and not Trenton working at a not for profit organization that helps impoverished children.
Pretty sure he will post a snoring person. Doesn't want to look within, never will. Victim to the core.


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## I Know

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You sound awesome!!!!!!


I was a little over the top huh? Sorry TRBE. You deserve better than my comment. Can you tell I was not enjoying my work experience today? I did not intend that comment to be aimed at you. 

Rewording my post: Work is not always as fun as it sounds. Many working joes would love to swap places with the stay at homes (mom or dad).


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## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> I found this link you might find very interesting >> INTP + ENTJ relationships, compatibility


I thought I was ENTJ but I had to look it up in my email from months ago and I am actually ENFJ. I knew it was an EN something or other. I remembered taking it awhile back when I found the link in a thread on here. It was strange that you brought it up because my husband came home recently and was talking to me about it. Weird because reading your link it seems to apply in certain ways but I suppose that's true since they're so general.


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## Trenton

I Know said:


> I was a little over the top huh? Sorry TRBE. You deserve better than my comment. Can you tell I was not enjoying my work experience today? I did not intend that comment to be aimed at you.
> 
> Rewording my post: Work is not always as fun as it sounds. Many working joes would love to swap places with the stay at homes (mom or dad).


SAHM is like that too believe it or not. You see day at park and drawing with crayons. I remember drawing with crayons but turning my back for a moment to clean up and realizing she chose to draw on the wall, feeding lunch but then panic to get grape out of choking mouth, go to park and then carrying my two year old home from park screaming bloody murder because she didn't want to leave the park.

Yes, I remember the major up's too. Going to park and seeing her smile when she realized she could make herself go on the swing, drawing a picture and handing it to me proudly and it's a picture of her holding my hand in stick figure glory, her hilarious faces when she'd try new foods.

Now she's 15. I see her struggle with her self image, become student of the month, plan her dreams for the future with me, etc. This is my daughter I have two sons as well, equally up and down.

Like work it has major up's and major down's and comes with a tremendous amount of responsibility. Major pay off's if you do the job well and major lows if you screw up and as parents we always screw up now and then.


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## Trenton

mommy22 said:


> Off the subject but... I love your posts, Trenton. I can relate. Everything in life has ups and downs, highs and lows. Nothing worthwhile is easy or painless.


I appreciate this. Thank you.


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## Therealbrighteyes

I Know said:


> I was a little over the top huh? Sorry TRBE. You deserve better than my comment. Can you tell I was not enjoying my work experience today? I did not intend that comment to be aimed at you.
> 
> Rewording my post: Work is not always as fun as it sounds. Many working joes would love to swap places with the stay at homes (mom or dad).


No harm, no foul! You had a bad day, so did I. I haven't been a SAHM for 12 years. I work in accounting now. Blech. It pays well, but blech.
Hey, maybe we can come up with a dream job. A combination of Superman, Aquaman, the intellect of Stephen Hawking and the looks of Clooney. What would the job entail?!


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## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No harm, no foul! You had a bad day, so did I. I haven't been a SAHM for 12 years. I work in accounting now. Blech. It pays well, but blech.
> Hey, maybe we can come up with a dream job. A combination of Superman, Aquaman, the intellect of Stephen Hawking and the looks of Clooney. What would the job entail?!


Hello!?!?!? Accountant here!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I Know

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No harm, no foul! You had a bad day, so did I. I haven't been a SAHM for 12 years. I work in accounting now. Blech. It pays well, but blech.
> Hey, maybe we can come up with a dream job. A combination of Superman, Aquaman, the intellect of Stephen Hawking and the looks of Clooney. What would the job entail?!


Hey, I'm in software engineering, pays well but yeah, blech. Soul sucking blech. 

So we start our own accounting firm. You be the rainmaker bringing in clients. I'll program our tax and accounting software and do the backoffice. I propose working hours be from 10AM-2PM every weekday. And all govt. holidays would be our holidays too!
Whaddya think?


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## Therealbrighteyes

I Know said:


> Hey, I'm in software engineering, pays well but yeah, blech. Soul sucking blech.
> 
> So we start our own accounting firm. You be the rainmaker bringing in clients. I'll program our tax and accounting software and do the backoffice. I propose working hours be from 10AM-2PM every weekday. And all govt. holidays would be our holidays too!
> Whaddya think?


Start our own accounting firm?! Accounting, pffft. With your engineering ability and my financial savy.....we could rule the world!! One properly placed Trojan Horse and the world is ours. Muahahahahahha.


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## Runs like Dog

Trenton said:


> I agree. Take Action, but I'm confused because you are in an unhappy relationship, acknowledge it and drop funnies everywhere about it but do nothing to change it.


I have a plan that will take some time to execute cleanly.


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## nice777guy

Runs like Dog said:


> I have a plan that will take some time to execute cleanly.


Look at your post - then look at your sig. Ironic may not be the right word...

Are you still developing the plan, or have you began to implement it?


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## Runs like Dog

Probably take about 20 months to complete depending on the money situation.


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## Runs like Dog

BTW you know who said that? Mike Tyson.


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## nice777guy

Runs like Dog said:


> BTW you know who said that? Mike Tyson.


The guy from The Hangover?

:smthumbup:


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