# What does this mean to you?



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"

In particular, does it mean that the woman who has that as her signature and her husband are in a "power exchange dynamic" and she is the submissive?

That is anything but obvious to me, but perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't get it.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

As a woman who doesn't flail around in emotional storms, I have to agree with you. Sounds like he has to be strong for her sake...like she can't be expected to control herself or her emotions, bless her heart. It kind of rubs me wrong.... but that's probably because I don't understand those women. 

I like the idea of my man being strong for me when I need him to be, or even when he perceives that I need him to be. But I also like to think that I offer strength to him too, when he needs it. 

I haven't read it, but I thought the whole premise of "The Way of the Superior Man" is that dom/sub, super alpha, protect the lil' missus idea... altho maybe not in those terms.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

That dynamic words well for many couples, the lady that has it as a signature included. I am not in that relationship dynamic myself but I like the quote and I agree with Sunny in that I like my H being strong for me when I need it but that it works both ways for me as I can be there for him when he needs too. I do think I need more emotional support than he does. He's not an emotion kind of guy and I think this quote works for women who are attracted to guys who aren't very emotionally needy and don't let things really get to them.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Can't really make heads or tails of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

Sounds like a bunch of nonsensical babble to me. However, I don't have "emotional storms." Irrationally emotional people who are out in the "wilderness" get on my last nerve.

I'm rational...so is my husband.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Oh and while I don't exactly "flail" I'm also not the type to censor myself. I would not do well with a man if I needed to always walk on eggshells around his feelings of being respected or his ego and from what I have gathered from the lady with the sig, that is a big part of it as well. If I get upset and tell my H to "f-off" he will just brush it off and not take it to heart.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There are some couples who have this type of relationship and it works for them. 

Where some might not understand this type of relationship, I have no doubt that many would not understand the type of relationship others have.

What works for one might not work for others.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I'm not presenting an opinion on the validity of such a relationship. I'm asking whether it is obvious from that quotation that the relationship is dom/sub.

Apparently I'm not the only one who finds that less than obvious.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

technovelist said:


> I'm asking whether it is obvious from that quotation that the relationship is dom/sub.
> 
> Apparently I'm not the only one who finds that less than obvious.


I don't see the dom/sub correlation in the quote. My quick interpretation without knowing a thing about the author or the premise would be; "women are more subject to emotional volatility than men.Therefore men should understand this and not react with like emotional intensity, but simply remain calm and wait for the storm to pass".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tech,

It's a fair question. I can tell you what it means to me. 

I want the RAW FEED from M2. Whatever that is. In the spirit of full disclosure it's mostly a mix of happiness and delightfully spontaneous quirkiness. 

I finally accepted that it isn't kind to want the raw feed when it's happy times, and a highly pre-processed feed when it isn't. Besides M2 was never agreeable to that model  .

So I had to learn - to NOT make it about me. Because it usually isn't. So what this means to me - is that I don't 'make it' about me. If indeed it IS about me. Meaning I've caused the storm, than I take my medicine like a man. I don't play courtroom style games with delivery style. Don't duck and dodge. Just stand there and absorb whatever IT is. 

Nothing better than hearing: you are my rock

JLD simplified this for me. She said: The stuff M2 says is either true or not true. It is unkind and unfair to blame her for the stuff that's true. And it's childish to get upset about the stuff that is untrue. 

Does that make me the dominant? Yes. Do I actually 'run the show here'? No. So who is really in charge? No idea. Don't really care. My job is to protect and serve. Provided I feel like I'm doing that well, I'm happy......




technovelist said:


> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"
> 
> In particular, does it mean that the woman who has that as her signature and her husband are in a "power exchange dynamic" and she is the submissive?
> 
> That is anything but obvious to me, but perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't get it.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I dont think the writer is trying to say that women are helter skelter out of control emotional beings and men should just ride the storm. 
The reality is that as women, we are very different from men, emotionally, hormonally and our brains and way of thinking are very different. We like to multitask, talk through things to figure out our emotions not for solutions but just to feel better, we like to talk through things for emotional closeness and connection, when that is not happening we pursue our Hs for closeness, becoming 'disturbed' by his inability to 'see' what and how we see (whether it is the state of the relationship, his coldness, his brusqueness, etc) we react and can use our words in ways that are far from loving or respectful (in fact the objective is usually a desire to draw close, to have him understand) and it results in more dismissal or coldness. If a man can get the fact that instead of reacting with hurtful words, becoming cold or callous but being present and willing to see through the fracas to her heart then he has much power to dissolve the situation and in her eyes she knows he can be totally trusted with her heart.

I get this.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> My job is to protect and serve.


I kind of love this sentence. I don't care if I sound corny but this reminds me of old world gallantry which happily still exists.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

technovelist said:


> I'm not presenting an opinion on the validity of such a relationship. *I'm asking whether it is obvious from that quotation that the relationship is dom/sub.*
> 
> Apparently I'm not the only one who finds that less than obvious.


No, I don't see that at all. I interpret it as a man being emotionally intelligent enough to be able to nurture, encourage and support his wife when she needs him to do so.

I'm old fashioned in some ways, and I appreciate a man who can / will protect me... even from myself, at times


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well I have read and questioned that many times. In the end I've decided that she has a very unusual need in her relationship and, she has found a man who fills it, and another man who agrees that it is important. Personally as a submissive personality, I could never live with that expectation, nor do I need it from my Dominant partner. The right to "storm" is not a characteristic of my personality.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

technovelist said:


> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"
> 
> In particular, does it mean that the woman who has that as her signature and her husband are in a "power exchange dynamic" and she is the submissive?
> 
> That is anything but obvious to me, but perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't get it.


To answer your direct question - no, I don't think it has anything to do with dom/sub roles in that way.

As for what it means... I'm emotional, and I speak my mind as such, but I don't see them as emotional "storms", nor do I need some stoic man to stand there and make me feel safe for that reason alone. So I have no clue what it means.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

aine said:


> I dont think the writer is trying to say that women are helter skelter out of control emotional beings and men should just ride the storm.
> The reality is that as women, we are very different from men, emotionally, hormonally and our brains and way of thinking are very different. We like to multitask, talk through things to figure out our emotions not for solutions but just to feel better, we like to talk through things for emotional closeness and connection, when that is not happening we pursue our Hs for closeness, becoming 'disturbed' by his inability to 'see' what and how we see (whether it is the state of the relationship, his coldness, his brusqueness, etc) we react and can use our words in ways that are far from loving or respectful (in fact the objective is usually a desire to draw close, to have him understand) and it results in more dismissal or coldness. If a man can get the fact that instead of reacting with hurtful words, becoming cold or callous but being present and willing to see through the fracas to her heart then he has much power to dissolve the situation and in her eyes she knows he can be totally trusted with her heart.
> 
> I get this.


This is how I interpret it, too. I totally get it and need that in my relationships. Sometimes men can tend to feel a need to "fix" things, but sometimes women just need them to be there as a support. I'm reminded of a time in my marriage many years ago when we were going through infertility. I was an up and down emotional mess at points and it was actually the best point in my marriage because my ex was very supportive of me and didn't try to invalidate my feelings or "fix" anything. He was just there to comfort and encourage me like I needed.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

No, this quote does not speak of a specific type of relationship.

I always read that quote because it makes me snicker i.e. how in the hell does he (a man) know what is one of the deepest feminine pleasures? Pure arrogance and bullsnot. Nothing more than pablum for men.

Let me tell you what is one of the deepest feminine pleasures - seeing your husband in the kitchen wearing an apron and cooking a great meal for you. Now you know; the way to your woman's heart is through her stomach.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

To me, it sounds like the author of that statement watched "Gone with the Wind" one too many times. Scarlet and Rhett have a very dysfunctional relationship, mostly because she's incredibly selfish and headstrong.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

aine said:


> I dont think the writer is trying to say that women are helter skelter out of control emotional beings and men should just ride the storm.
> The reality is that as women, we are very different from men, emotionally, hormonally and our brains and way of thinking are very different. We like to multitask, talk through things to figure out our emotions not for solutions but just to feel better, we like to talk through things for emotional closeness and connection, when that is not happening we pursue our Hs for closeness, becoming 'disturbed' by his inability to 'see' what and how we see (whether it is the state of the relationship, his coldness, his brusqueness, etc) *we react and can use our words in ways that are far from loving or respectful* (in fact the objective is usually a desire to draw close, to have him understand) and it results in more dismissal or coldness. If a man can get the fact that instead of reacting with hurtful words, becoming cold or callous but being present and willing to see through the fracas to her heart then he has much power to dissolve the situation and in her eyes she knows he can be totally trusted with her heart.
> 
> I get this.


And we are to respond to emotional abuse with care?????

BS I'll call it


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Let's face it: being irrational or overly emotional is just as masculine as it is feminine! Those are more so human characteristics rather than being relegated to one particular gender over another!

I am very low key and stridently an unemotional guy! I am largely unmoved by one's emotional outbursts and when I am, it's usually in the mode of sympathy, and if it is bad enough, it can definitely foster up negative connotations for me! I honesty believe that that is nothing more than human nature at work!

If it is my committed or marital partner exhibiting such irrational behavior, I can usually deal with it on at least a short-term basis. But when "enough is enough," and such behavior it is found that such behavior is summarily being delivered out of sheer ignorance, manipulation, or fear, then I can walk away from it as I have far more important things to worry about; and I pray that they would do the very same thing if I ever reacted to them in a like manner!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> No, this quote does not speak of a specific type of relationship.
> 
> I always read that quote because it makes me snicker i.e. how in the hell does he (a man) know what is one of the deepest feminine pleasures? Pure arrogance and bullsnot. Nothing more than pablum for men.
> 
> Let me tell you what is one of the deepest feminine pleasures - seeing your husband in the kitchen wearing an apron and cooking a great meal for you. Now you know; the way to your woman's heart is through her stomach.


I'll cook, I'll feed a great meal, but if you want to see me in an apron, either it will be made of leather, or I won't be wearing anything else, or both. Leather Apron


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

When I first discovered relationship forums, about two years ago, I kept reading how men were advised to leave the room if their wives got upset with them. I was shocked.

I showed Dug, and he said, "That is so wrong."

My daughter, then 18, said the same. We could not believe that was offered as _advice_. It sounded so scary for the wife, like abandonment.

My husband had never left the room when I got upset. Never even thought of it. He always stayed with me and calmed me. Sometimes his presence was enough, and sometimes he used soothing words. 

And sometimes he yelled back.  I would hear, "Change your tone of voice!" That was never effective, though. I just yelled louder.

So when I read in WOTSM that it is not a good idea to leave your wife when she is upset, I immediately made it my signature. To me, it represents a man's commitment to being his wife's rock, or safe harbor, during a time when she needs to lean on him, to steady herself.

Someone mentioned her husband leans on her in much the same way. That works, too. 

My husband is usually very calm, so he does not need that. He generally has very good emotional control. He does not take my emotions personally, which has surely saved us lots of conflict over the years. Harsh words just roll off his back.

As SGC said, I do not have to walk on eggshells or protect his ego in any way. And like MEM said, Dug wants the "raw feed." He says he learns from my brutal honesty.

Dug also feels responsible for the marriage. There is no, "Take care of it yourself; it's not my problem." He would never talk to me like that. It would be another abandonment trigger.

Interestingly enough, I think not being charged with responsibility makes me feel even more devoted to our union. Feeling safe with him definitely makes me want to please him. It makes me trust him, and want to be close to him.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> And we are to respond to emotional abuse with care?????
> 
> BS I'll call it


There's a difference between emotional abuse and not always choosing your words carefully. 

No one is advocating emotionally abusing anyone.

I would not match with a man who was sensitive if I don't filter myself.
If I say something like "OMG just shut the f up!" 
Some men would take it to heart, see it as disrespect and be upset. 
My H doesn't give a crap. 

For us there is a difference for us when my H is upset. His anger feels dangerous to me because he is intimidating and could easily kill me with his bare hands at any second- even though I trust he never would and he's never given any signs that he's ever hurt me. So while I'm not sensitive to words, I am sensitive to displays of anger. He has to filter his behavior more than I do. Angry words we both don't really care about, depends what they are. 

My anger is just not threatening. Even if I tried for it to be he'd just laugh. So if I come stomping down the hall upset it's different than if he does. 

It's like emotional needs where each person will be different. 
Angry outbursts are higher on my list of love busters than his are so he has to watch them more. I have to watch to not do other things. 

And this obviously would not work for many couples as women can be the aggressive ones, the abusive ones and telling a guy to just deal is wrong. 

I wouldn't get with a man and tell him this is how it is, deal with it. But I am glad that I am with a man who it works with and I would never have even thought about actively finding someone like that before but I've read through many threads where the woman says something mean and it's a whole big issue or disrespect and dwelling on it. That would be unattractive to me.


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## Vorlon (Sep 13, 2012)

IMHO: I have read that book and a few others that relate. 

First it is NOT about a DOM/Sub relationship. 

The quote is for MEN as a guide on how to handle the emotional storms that a women they love can go through sometimes. It gives them some idea of how to handle it in a productive way. It goes back to the basic masculine / feminine needs. The polarity that helps form and maintain attraction. 

It is addressing the natural reactions of men when a women they care about is upset or angry. It is an off shoot of "Just listen to me; don't try to fix it." Although it is not the same thing. Men have a hard time understanding the emotions women sometimes go through. Often men immediately try and find a logical fix to the problem she has because they see her upset...She then reacts by saying things like "I don't need fixing" or I'm not broken... I am just upset. Or he gets upset right along with her and they end fighting each other. As a result she is upset with him for not reacting the the way she needs him too as well as what was bothering her in the first place. 

It is guide for men to not get caught up in the emotions of the moment. Stand strong in the face of it, show your women that you can be there for her, that it's not about you (the man) but its about the way she is feeling. A man in that situation is best served by being calm, not being pulled in to the emotions. The women then feels that she can trust him. That she can show her crazy to him and he won't run away. She can feel safe, protected and that he has her back. It may seem unfair or counter intuitive but its better than being sucked into it. You have seen it many times... the women is upset or angry so she yells and maybe pounds her fist into his chest. He stands firm and doesn't react but gently or firmly as needed puts his arms around her. Her emotions spent, she calms down and because he didn't get sucked in she feels safe and loved. 

None of that means he must stand for emotional or physical abuse. It doesn't excuse bad behavior but it can help secure a better marriage/relationship. That is my interpretation of the quote by D.D. in his book The Way of the Superior Man. 

BTW - Much easier said than done.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

@Vorlon: Well said.

And the part written about yelling and pounding fists is an EXAMPLE. This doesn't mean that ALL WOMEN behave like this. Emotions can be expressed in other ways, no matter how intense and volatile they are.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jld said:


> Someone mentioned her husband leans on her in much the same way. That works, too.
> 
> My husband is usually very calm, so he does not need that. He generally has very good emotional control. He does not take my emotions personally, which has surely saved us lots of conflict over the years. Harsh words just roll off his back.


Yep, and it's not like you don't give back the things he needs either. You support him in other ways, his needs are just different than yours are. 

My H leans on me for practical support. He likes that I can take over Christmas 100% because it's just too much for him and I love it. I get stuff done behind the scenes, figuring out the bills, shopping lists, meal plans, kids events. That's where my support comes in. 

Then there are the times like when someone close dies. He'll just hold it in and not seem like he even cares but he'll get quiet. So when I take that time to go sit with him and cuddle and rub his back he appreciates it. He would never ask for me to console him or act like he needed it so he likes that I've learned to sense it and just do it. So he does need emotional support, just not in the same ways that I do. 
And he has a need for praise but I don't need to fake-praise him like giving a sticker to a toddler every time they go potty in the toilet. If I take the time to tell him how much I appreciate the things he does and not take them for granted, that is what he needs.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There's a difference between emotional abuse and not always choosing your words carefully.
> 
> No one is advocating emotionally abusing anyone.
> 
> ...


Edited to reduce size and emphasise the parts that struck me. 

SGC Now I remember why You Scare the S*** out of me.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

technovelist said:


> I'm not presenting an opinion on the validity of such a relationship. I'm asking whether it is obvious from that quotation that the relationship is dom/sub.
> 
> Apparently I'm not the only one who finds that less than obvious.


It means when men behave as men and women behave as women there is a natural connection, physically, mentally and spiritually.

The alternative is to go progressive and politically correct. Trying to fly on the face of millions of years of evolution or God given roles, take your pick, well, good luck with that.

Read the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER (its not a sex manual by the way) linked to below.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> Edited to reduce size and emphasise the parts that struck me.
> 
> SGC Now I remember why You Scare the S*** out of me.


and that's fine, like I said that type of marriage doesn't work for everyone and I'm not saying every man should be like this and every woman should be like this.
I personally just couldn't be with someone who was sensitive or intimidated or emotional. 

He couldn't be with someone who can't do day to day practical things and stuff like when the pipe is leaking, takes her butt out to the shed to get the tools and fixes the darn thing herself or magically makes Christmas happen without bothering him about the little details. He doesn't want to worry about that stuff and my support means he can focus on what he needs to do rather than bother him with stuff like that. 

And his support means that sometimes I just need a hug and for him to listen and not get defensive when I'm upset. 

You can have a give and take without having the same things given and taken.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Why do grown women feel entitled to rage, throw temper tantrums and expect their spouse to not only take it but also to protect wife's feelings?

How about growing up and showing your spouse respect and concern for their feelings. The only way a person could stand there and put up with the nonsense is to mentally detach. This is not a healthy way to conduct a marriage. Take care of your own emotions.

I've known some mothers who will spank their child and then insist that the child give her a kiss and tell her they love her. Sick crap. And, not much different than a raging wife expecting her husband to take care of her emotions.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> How about growing up and showing your spouse respect and concern for their feelings. .


Everyone has different ways of needing to be shown respect. JLD respects Dug immensely and says so often. One of the biggest things she respects about his is his ability to be calm if she's upset.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Emotional rage and temper tantrums are very destructive to a relationship. I don't care how "stoic" a man remains in the face of it all.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Oh and while I don't exactly "flail" I'm also not the type to censor myself. I would not do well with a man if I needed to *always walk on eggshells around his feelings of being respected or his ego* and from what I have gathered from the lady with the sig, that is a big part of it as well. If I get upset and tell my H to "f-off" he will just brush it off and not take it to heart.


Is that code for not wanting to have to simply be nice with a basic level of human respect towards your husband? Do you feel as if you are walking on egg shells around the cashier at the store? Would you tell them to f-off if they upset you?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

technovelist said:


> I'm not presenting an opinion on the validity of such a relationship. I'm asking whether it is obvious from that quotation that the relationship is dom/sub.
> 
> Apparently I'm not the only one who finds that less than obvious.


I'm not so sure it is dom/sub per se. Parent/child is a more accurate description I think, and that quote, taking the marital label off of it just screams Parent/Child to me. The parent needs to make the tough choices, the sometimes unpopular choices...the child throws their tantrum, the emotional storm if you will, while the parent needs to remain steadfast and strong, staying the course, not letting the rage distract them.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Emotional rage and temper tantrums are very destructive to a relationship. I don't care how "stoic" a man remains in the face of it all.


I fully agree. 

However, I don't think that the quote is meant that way. I'm sure no one would think that raging on a regular basis should be tolerated by either spouse.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Is that code for not wanting to have to simply be nice with a basic level of human respect towards your husband? Do you feel as if you are walking on egg shells around the cashier at the store? Would you tell them to f-off if they upset you?


I'm not going to act as though I have a guest when I'm with my husband. 
I would tell a friend or family to f-off, as would they to me, as would H. Our circle is just not that sensitive I guess. 

H knows 100% of me, not just the side I show to strangers. He knows everything. I have a much more intimate relationship with him than I do the cashier. I also wouldn't tell the cashier other stuff I say to my husband, like how hot he is, how amazing he is, how he's working so hard. 

I work a lot of front end at my job, I greet people, I make small talk, I laugh at stupid jokes and smile all day long. That's my fake nice all the time side. If I had to act like that in my home I would go bonkers. 

The only thing H has to watch more carefully than me is angry actions. If he goes to slam a cabinet door closed out of anger, chances are it's breaking into pieces and I'm getting terrified. He physically is more dangerous than I am, he's stronger, he can do a lot more damage emotionally so he has to be more careful not to.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> It means when men behave as men and women behave as women there is a natural connection, physically, mentally and spiritually.
> 
> The alternative is to go progressive and politically correct. Trying to fly on the face of millions of years of evolution or God given roles, take your pick, well, good luck with that.
> 
> Read the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER (its not a sex manual by the way) linked to below.


Again, this is off-topic. There was a claim made on another thread that JLD's having the Deida quote in her signature means that she and Dug have a sub/dom relationship. I didn't agree but wanted others' opinions on that issue in case I was missing something obvious. Apparently others don't see that either.

As for MMSLP, I have read it, as well as some of Athol's other works. I find them valuable in understanding the mechanisms underlying intersexual behavior.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm not going to act as though I have a guest when I'm with my husband.
> I would tell a friend or family to f-off, as would they to me, as would H. Our circle is just not that sensitive I guess.
> 
> H knows 100% of me, not just the side I show to strangers. He knows everything. I have a much more intimate relationship with him than I do the cashier. I also wouldn't tell the cashier other stuff I say to my husband, like how hot he is, how amazing he is, how he's working so hard.
> ...


I guess we are different in this regard. I interact with a lot of people every day as well, small talk, laugh, all that too, but that is the genuine me. I am not being fake.

I am a very filtered person in the sense that I tend to choose my words carefully so that the message I am trying to convey is done very clearly with little chance of misinterpretation or misunderstanding. I don't see that as walking on eggshells. There are constructive and destructive ways of conveying the exact same message, and I usually choose the constructive route.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> I guess we are different in this regard. *I interact with a lot of people every day as well, small talk, laugh, all that too, but that is the genuine me. I am not being fake.*
> 
> I am a very filtered person in the sense that I tend to choose my words carefully so that the message I am trying to convey is done very clearly with little chance of misinterpretation or misunderstanding. I don't see that as walking on eggshells. There are constructive and destructive ways of conveying the exact same message, and I usually choose the constructive route.


With the bolded- sometimes people come in and tell you the same stupid joke every single time and you laugh every single time. Not because it's real but because it's your job. I'm a nice person in general but there is a difference between having to smile and laugh while a customer tells you an hour+ long story - that you already heard the last 2 times he was in- while you need to get stuff done and if my H does it and I can tell him to just be quiet for a bit because I am busy. 

And yes, everyone typically chooses constructive routes with their words but if I'm angry and tell him to f-off every now and then, it's not some huge deal where his ego gets hurt and he sees it as disrespect. He brushes it off and doesn't care. 

Me and my H are always going to have a more intimate relationship than me and a cashier or me and a customer at work. I can show H a mark on my butt and ask him WTF it is. I can wake up and look like crap and decide to have a day where I wear sweat pants and no make-up. I can tell him how sexy he is and grab his crotch when I walk by. We can have conversations while one of us is on the toilet.
That closeness also includes seeing me at my worst emotionally. If I felt I couldn't do any of those things with him then I would not feel connected with him and it would all be gone.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Emotional rage and temper tantrums are very destructive to a relationship. I don't care how "stoic" a man remains in the face of it all.


I'm always amazed at how many spouses think its ok to be rude to a spouse.

I've seen and heard people treat their spouses worse in company than they'd treat a stranger in the street. In fact, if they talked to a stranger that way, they'd probably get assaulted.

But sooo many people think that a marriage contract is a get-out-of-jail card to treat your partner like crap and they can't do anything about it.

And why so many people think its ok to have emotional freak outs and rages on their spouses is beyond me. Its not the spouse's responsibility to calm you down and cajole you because you're acting like a two year old on crack. Adults need to be in control of their own behavior. I have very little respect for people who don't have enough introspection and self-control to handle their irrationality.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I have seen women in the grocery store treating their husbands like crap. "God, you are such an idiot! I told you green apples, do these look green to you?!" 
That is abusive and not ok. 

Being emotional in your own home and being able to show those emotions to your spouse is different IMO and being in a marriage where they are your best friend, the closest person to you, the only one who knows every single side of you and all your secrets and has seen you at your very best and very worst is just too intimate of a relationship to treat them like a guest or stranger on the street.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Being emotional in your own home and being able to show those emotions to your spouse is different IMO and being in a marriage where they are your best friend, the closest person to you, the only one who knows every single side of you and all your secrets and has seen you at your very best and very worst is just too intimate of a relationship to treat them like a guest or stranger on the street.


I'm talking about emotional freak outs and rages.

I used to work with a guy who's wife used to literally flip the hell out over very tiny arguments. She'd cry, scream, throw stuff, break stuff. One day he came to work with bags under his eyes and a cut on his foot because she had him up half the night flipping out and broke a bottle which he cut himself on.

Extreme example but I've heard sooo many situations where someone rages or freaks out over almost nothing to the point where the other spouse is walking on eggshells all the time trying not to set the other person off. It happens far too much.

There's no way I'd tolerate that crap from anyone more than once. To me, if you can't control yourself, don't get into a relationship.



> I have seen women in the grocery store treating their husbands like crap. "God, you are such an idiot! I told you green apples, do these look green to you?!"


I've seen this too many times too. Another thing no one should ever tolerate. 

More spouses need to stand up to this stuff and refuse to tolerate it. If your partner can't speak to you politely and respectfully, you need to leave and find a decent spouse.

And also, the name calling. I cannot imagine ever calling my husband a rude name and vice versa. I don't understand why people think that's ok either.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

My problem with the quote is that there are no qualifiers. Is a man supposed to stand there and be stoic when his ballistic wife pulls out a baseball bat in her fit of rage? At some point, emotional storm transcends into verbal abuse, then to whatever.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No question this model has produced a higher level of connection. 

In the spirit of accuracy we are more of a 90-10 model on this. Not 100 - 0. So 10% of the time I'm the one who is agitated. And when that happens M2 is very helpful. 




jld said:


> When I first discovered relationship forums, about two years ago, I kept reading how men were advised to leave the room if their wives got upset with them. I was shocked.
> 
> I showed Dug, and he said, "That is so wrong."
> 
> ...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

to me, the quotation does not necessarily imply dom/submissive.

i was in a relationship with a stormy woman. she had lived with an abusive husband for 18 years and was badly affected by that.
her mistrust of men and women colored her whole relationship. she was very reactive. almost any criticism or conflict would result in
her threatening to leave. even her son observed this. i was the calm one that could weather her storms and reason her back to 
serenity. but, let me tell you, she was anything but submissive. quite the opposite.

to be fair, she could be quite passionate and i never had relationship with a woman so alive and full of life.

but, she had a hair trigger temper and she would unload on you or threaten to leave. her independence was her crown.
that was what finally killed our relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SGC,
It isn't possible for me to like this enough. Size matters. A LOT. 

M2 can employ any volume she wants. Any body language. She can (even though she doesn't) slam doors. 

She is not physically capable of intimidating me. Too big a size, strength, muscle mass, bone density differential. 

In reverse - to avoid any sense of intimidation it's important that I don't do any of that stuff. 

That isn't a 'gender' thing as much as a raw physical power thing. 






SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm not going to act as though I have a guest when I'm with my husband.
> I would tell a friend or family to f-off, as would they to me, as would H. Our circle is just not that sensitive I guess.
> 
> H knows 100% of me, not just the side I show to strangers. He knows everything. I have a much more intimate relationship with him than I do the cashier. I also wouldn't tell the cashier other stuff I say to my husband, like how hot he is, how amazing he is, how he's working so hard.
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> SGC,
> It isn't possible for me to like this enough. Size matters. A LOT.
> 
> M2 can employ any volume she wants. Any body language. She can (even though she doesn't) slam doors.
> ...


Exactly, MEM. You have the power and she knows it. That is why you are not afraid of her. But she likely has some fear of you, even though you do not intend that.

I just told Dug about some of the criticism I have gotten on this thread and he laughed out loud. He especially laughed at the idea that he is emotionally abused. 

He feels so powerful in our relationship, MEM. He is not afraid of me or my words at all. That is why he does not take them personally. They simply cannot penetrate his inner security.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I'm talking about emotional freak outs and rages.
> 
> I used to work with a guy who's wife used to literally flip the hell out over very tiny arguments. She'd cry, scream, throw stuff, break stuff. One day he came to work with bags under his eyes and a cut on his foot because she had him up half the night flipping out and broke a bottle which he cut himself on.
> 
> Extreme example but I've heard sooo many situations where someone rages or freaks out over almost nothing to the point where the other spouse is walking on eggshells all the time trying not to set the other person off. It happens far too much.


I understand. I don't express my emotions that way so it's hard for me to really say how I'd want my H to react if I did. 

Me mad is sometimes swearing, sometimes storming off to another room or I'll tell him that he's acting like an @sshole or a jerk. Once things are calmed down we can apologize and talk about how we can avoid it in the future but there's no ego damage or feelings of disrespect. I'm just upset, he doesn't read into it anymore than that and I don't scare him because if I did come at him in any kind of threatening way he'd probably have me on my @ss before I was even close. 
I don't feel that same confidence so I need to leave the room or house if he is angry. It triggers me (past abuse) and I get scared.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Is that code for not wanting to have to simply be nice with a basic level of human respect towards your husband? Do you feel as if you are walking on egg shells around the cashier at the store? Would you tell them to f-off if they upset you?


I'm with you. I don't see how one treats their supposed true love worse than they would a random stranger.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SGC,
> It isn't possible for me to like this enough. Size matters. A LOT.
> 
> M2 can employ any volume she wants. Any body language. She can (even though she doesn't) slam doors.
> ...


Exactly. H has tried to teach me to fight to defend myself or just playing around. He'll tell me to punch him as hard as I can in the arm and then laugh when I do because I'm not even a close match to him. If his did that I'd end up in the hospital.
The man tickles my inner thigh and I can get a bruise. 
His anger=potential for serious damage. Mine is a bit of hurt feelings.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Exactly. H has tried to teach me to fight to defend myself or just playing around. He'll tell me to punch him as hard as I can in the arm and then laugh when I do because I'm not even a close match to him. If his did that I'd end up in the hospital.
> The man tickles my inner thigh and I can get a bruise.
> *His anger=potential for serious damage. Mine is a bit of hurt feelings*.


Exactly, SGC. Exactly.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm with you. I don't see how one treats their supposed true love worse than they would a random stranger.


I agree with this and I can't stand it. If my H speaks to me in tone which I consider to be rude I say 'Hmm do you talk to your colleagues that way?' or depending on my mood. 'Who do you think you're talking to?' or 'Don't take that tone with me'. Luckily, these sort of discussions have been few and far between.

I have a very low tolerance level for disrespect. Very, very low.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Vorlon said:


> It is addressing the natural reactions of men when a women they care about is upset or angry. It is an off shoot of "Just listen to me; don't try to fix it." Although it is not the same thing. Men have a hard time understanding the emotions women sometimes go through. Often men immediately try and find a logical fix to the problem she has because they see her upset...She then reacts by saying things like *"I don't need fixing" or I'm not broken... I am just upset.* Or he gets upset right along with her and they end fighting each other. *As a result she is upset with him for not reacting the the way she needs him too as well as what was bothering her in the first place. *


Oh boy can I attest to the bolded statements above! This is probably the #1 cause for my arguments with H. I need to get him to read the book of it'll help him understand what I want from him during my "moments". Although he's calm, stoic, and in control, he's a fixer and just can't stop himself from trying to "fix me"....even though I've told him time and time again that's not what I need or want. 

Perfect example. ....one section of lights on my prelit christmas tree are not working. I wasted 2.5 hours last night trying to trouble shoot the problem and the [email protected]$!ing lights still wouldn't come on. I was frustrated and when I get frustrated I get angry. Then I get sad. I wanted to chuck the tree like a caber onto the front lawn. My H looked at the tree, then looked at me, fiddled with the tree for a bit, then finally said "we'll buy a string of lights and wrap it around the broken length". I saw RED! That's not what I wanted to hear. I wanted him to a) ASK me if he could do anything to help and b) make me laugh at the stupidity of it all, but no, he had to TELL me how to fix it and assumed that's all there was to it. Ugh! 

I might just buy him the book for Christmas. .....I'm still upset about that stupid tree.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

The quote indicates to me that women are emotionally unstable and that men need to deal with this by being stoic; that it's the natural way of the world.

I'd prefer that this not be the case. Feminism told me it wasn't the case.

I'd think that if people are emotionally unstable, they should work on improving that.

My wife is somewhat emotionally unstable. I am the rock. She likes me being her rock. I don't mind it, I'm happy to help. But that doesn't remove from her the responsibility to keep working on it.

I'll deal with her emotional instability regarding work, friends, kids, etc. 

But if she runs around calling me a jerk or an a$$hole on a regular basis, I'm not going to "understand" that. There would be consequences.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

jld said:


> Exactly, MEM. You have the power and she knows it. That is why you are not afraid of her. But she likely has some fear of you, even though you do not intend that.
> 
> I just told Dug about some of the criticism I have gotten on this thread and he laughed out loud. He especially laughed at the idea that he is emotionally abused.
> 
> He feels so powerful in our relationship, MEM. He is not afraid of me or my words at all. That is why he does not take them personally. They simply cannot penetrate his inner security.


I knew Dug would laugh JLD!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

No, it doesn't describe a D/s relationship. To me, it describes a man that has his **** together.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

thefam said:


> I knew Dug would laugh JLD!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TFam!!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Me mad is sometimes swearing, sometimes storming off to another room or I'll tell him that he's acting like an @sshole or a jerk. Once things are calmed down we can apologize and talk about how we can avoid it in the future but there's no ego damage or feelings of disrespect. I'm just upset, he doesn't read into it anymore than that and I don't scare him because if I did come at him in any kind of threatening way he'd probably have me on my @ss before I was even close.
> I don't feel that same confidence so I need to leave the room or house if he is angry. It triggers me (past abuse) and I get scared.


I'm definitely a-typical when it comes to this type of stuff.

Arguing with my ex involved me ignoring him. If he started conflict, I'd leave the room...if he followed me around, I'd get the kids and leave the house. Eventually we stopped arguing or communicating at all, until I divorced him.

With my current husband, we're best friends and we've never had an argument. We very rarely disagree on anything and if I have a slightly different perspective, I just talk to him about it and he's never not gotten it or vice versa. We've never raised our voices to each other or called each other names and honestly, I can't even imagine any such thing. I totally respect everything about my husband and would NEVER treat him less than he deserves. 

I think the problem with escalated marital arguments is that the reality is, the damage never really goes away. Yes, you can make up after calling each other names and screaming at each other but the damage is already done...you never really forget it. After about 20-30 years, it builds up (trust me). It erodes the trust you have that the other person has your back and will protect who you are. 

I finally realized after 20 years of marriage that I didn't want a husband who would stoop to trying to insult me to score points for himself. I wanted a man who I could always trust to be on my side and thankfully, that's what I finally got. I would never take it for granted by doing anything but cherishing what I now have. I think you have to be really careful about unleashing all your emotional baggage on your ex and expecting them to tolerate it long-term.

If you don't believe me, look at how many people on this forum are blindsided by sudden divorces because someone just gets tired of dealing with the other person's crap.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I want to make a point that I think is important, and gives some correlation to enduring the "emotional storms".

As a man, when I am sh!t tested, my ability to pass usually hinges on not allowing her to alter my frame. I try to use humor, but there are other ways, such as compassion, etc.

How is weathering her emotional storm any different? It is being supportive without letting her strong winds alter the course I know to be true.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> The quote indicates to me that women are emotionally unstable and that men need to deal with this by being stoic; that it's the natural way of the world.


That's what I gleaned from it too. And not all women are emotionally unstable or require men to "help" us with that....lol. In fact, its kind of insulting to a lot of women who have their **** very well together.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thefam said:


> I knew Dug would laugh JLD!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> No, it doesn't describe a D/s relationship. To me, it describes a man that has his **** together.


Maybe that is another way to describe it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I find some of this pretty strange as double standard and the opposite of what I was supposed to learn from feminism. Any adult woman, could with a weapon or proper training inflict a lot of damage to any man.....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I find some of this pretty strange as double standard and the opposite of what I was supposed to learn from feminism. Any adult woman, could with a weapon or proper training inflict a lot of damage to any man.....


The idea is that her _words,_ her _emotions_, should not be seen as a weapon. They should be seen as a smoke signal.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

technovelist said:


> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"


Sounds like the type of relationship that one might have w/ a punching bag.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

still a double standard JLD. If a man were to raise his voice, you would tell the world the man is violent and tell the woman to get out of dodge. Not saying that I am for or against any of this, but the double standard is huge, given our current wave of feminism.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> I find some of this pretty strange as double standard and the opposite of what I was supposed to learn from feminism. Any adult woman, could with a weapon or proper training inflict a lot of damage to any man.....


I am a feminist. I believe I should have equal access to rights and opportunities as a man does. I also understand that men and women are different in many ways and that not all women are the same and not all men are the same. 
Some women could be the aggressors, the ones who could do the most damage physically and emotionally.

It's just not that way between H and I. I can accept that _I_ am physically weaker than my H and still believe I should have equal rights and opportunities. 
My DS is a teen, my DD is 5 years younger and much, much smaller and weaker. I do talk to him about the physical difference and how he has to be more careful not to hurt her. It has nothing to do with feminism. 

And yes, once weapons are involved then it's a whole different thing.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I am a feminist. I believe I should have equal access to rights and opportunities as a man does. I also understand that men and women are different in many ways and that not all women are the same and not all men are the same.
> Some women could be the aggressors, the ones who could do the most damage physically and emotionally.
> 
> It's just not that way between H and I. I can accept that _I_ am physically weaker than my H and still believe I should have equal rights and opportunities.
> ...


reasonable answer. Though I still contend the 'storming' women are allowed to due in the original post would be considered violence if done by a man. Even if only verbal.

For the record, I try really hard to do what the original post does, though it is not very easy some fraction of the time.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> still a double standard JLD. If a man were to raise his voice, you would tell the world the man is violent and tell the woman to get out of dodge. Not saying that I am for or against any of this, but the double standard is huge, given our current wave of feminism.


It is more a question of power, Dave. The way I see it, for there to be abuse, there has to be a genuine threat, a genuine ability to hurt.

If a 5 yo hits you with his fist, are you threatened? Do you feel the need to call the police?

If your wife says your idea is stupid, do you feel threatened? Do you need to? How about asking her why it is stupid, instead of focusing on the word stupid?

Though you could also say, "I feel hurt when I hear that," if you would like to communicate that her words do hurt, but do not cripple you.

People respect strength, Dave. When someone can remain unflappable in the midst of another's emotion, it not only _conveys_ strength, it _is_ strength.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> reasonable answer. Though I still contend the 'storming' women are allowed to due in the original post would be considered violence if done by a man. Even if only verbal.
> 
> For the record, I try really hard to do what the original post does, though it is not very easy some fraction of the time.


I agree and everyone does and should have their own limits. I'm lucky that my 'storms' are well within my H's limits. 

I'd be hesitant to tell a man he should put up and deal with it when he is not ok with it, but I would have no issues with suggesting either of them to find someone who's limits and storming are compatible with each other or that they could try to meet each other half way somehow. She tones it down a bit and he tries to not be so sensitive.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I've only read the first post so far; that quote always made me feel like I was reading a trashy romance novel.

That said, I get what it's saying and while in a way it's true, having someone who stays rational while you're feeling irrational is always a good thing (and it's not just women who can be irrational in a relationship, as I've frequently seen here), it feels derogatory.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"When someone can remain unflappable in the midst of another's emotion, it not only conveys strength, it is strength."

This is an interpretation. When I witness this behavior my thought is "This poor man's been here one too many times. He's so checked out he's wondering if he needs to floss his teeth or get his shoes shined". He's detached. The more he has to detach to protect himself the less he has invested in the relationship.

I'm not saying detachment plays a part in your marriage as the two of you seem to operate under a special set of rules, compliance and discipline.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

breeze said:


> I've only read the first post so far; that quote always made me feel like I was reading *a trashy romance novel.*
> 
> That said, I get what it's saying and while in a way it's true, having someone who stays rational while you're feeling irrational is always a good thing (and it's not just women who can be irrational in a relationship, as I've frequently seen here), it feels derogatory.


With Fabio on the cover wearing a puffy shirt with sword in hand.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> With Fabio on the cover wearing a puffy shirt with sword in hand.


and a scantily clad female half his size at his side with bright lipstick and a pout.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> *It is more a question of power*, Dave. The way I see it, for there to be abuse, there has to be a genuine threat, a genuine ability to hurt.
> 
> If a 5 yo hits you with his fist, are you threatened? Do you feel the need to call the police?
> 
> ...


For me, perhaps the most intimate part of the relationship I have with my wife is opening myself up enough, making myself vulnerable, allowing her the ability, the POWER to hurt me, and letting her know that she has that ability. In return, I expect her to be a good steward of that. The moment I become invulnerable to her, is the moment our relationship dies.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jld said:


> It is more a question of power, Dave. The way I see it, for there to be abuse, there has to be a genuine threat, a genuine ability to hurt.
> 
> If a 5 yo hits you with his fist, are you threatened? Do you feel the need to call the police?
> 
> ...


Delivery of any message can be done in a damaging way. the whole sticks and stones ... words will never hurt me is totally bs, in my experience. Doesn't happen much in my M and I tend to follow the prescription of the OP, but I think that the OP, in some (and likely many) situations, can be very damaging to men in general and it is a double standard.

I agree about respecting strength, but to assume that anything a woman says or does won't hurt or impact a man is ludicrous. Especially with the large number of people, as evidenced by TAM, who are broken. Words can cause hurt, or else we wouldn't have hate speech laws. So yes, a ranting woman can cause hurt to her H.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I agree and everyone does and should have their own limits. I'm lucky that my 'storms' are well within my H's limits.
> 
> I'd be hesitant to tell a man he should put up and deal with it when he is not ok with it, but I would have no issues with suggesting either of them to find someone who's limits and storming are compatible with each other or that they could try to meet each other half way somehow. She tones it down a bit and he tries to not be so sensitive.


Very reasonable approach.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Delivery of any message can be done in a damaging way. the whole sticks and stones ... words will never hurt me is totally bs, in my experience. Doesn't happen much in my M and I tend to follow the prescription of the OP, but I think that the OP, in some (and likely many) situations, can be very damaging to men in general and it is a double standard.


I'm a feminist and real feminists who care about equal rights for women don't ascribe to any double standard on this issue.

Physical abuse: If a woman puts her hands on a man, he should file a police report and have her charged...period. 

Verbal abuse from a woman is the same as verbal abuse from a man.

The double standard IS tiring and ridiculous. I've known men who've stood there and taken a literal beating from women because they can't fight back when some tweaked-up woman is hitting them and that is so not ok. Its absolutely repugnant that anyone would excuse that behavior just because someone is female.

Real men need and want real women that are equals and not dependents. And real women don't rely on men for anything but partnership. A partnership is only as great as its weakest link...so weak, submissive partners simply make a weaker overall relationship.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

@jld - I thought you might find this interesting too. 

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? #2
Interestingly enough, a sign of her trusting you may take the form of anger and resentment. If she changes from withdrawal to the state of conflict (which is an improvement), she will tell you how angry she is, and blame you for all of her depression. Her Taker will release its storehouse of resentment. Her shaming of you, and her disrespect will be hard for you to take, but it will give you an opportunity to hear from her Taker what she wants from you. You will have an opportunity to make a deal with her to compensate her for all of the pain she has suffered. If you can get though her attack without losing too many of her love units in your love bank, you will gain valuable information, and an opportunity from your wife to implement change.

I can relate to his 3 states of mind in a marriage and I do think that sometimes when someone is just done and in withdrawal they might be less naggy and resentful but that can be _worse _than still trying to fight for things.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

and this one too
How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife by Willard F. Harley, Jr.
The right way for a husband to approach a demanding, disrespectful, and angry wife is to try to temporarily look past her inappropriate way of expressing herself, and try to deal with the complaint in a respectful way. But this is where her cooperation is absolutely necessary. When he's willing to address her complaints the right way, she should somehow restrain her temptation to be abusive toward him. Instead of regarding her abusive methods as the only effective way to get his attention, she should regard his willingness to negotiate with respect as something they should both do.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

But why would you ever talk to your husband like that to begin with? My husband and I have been together for 29 years and I don't think I've ever told him to "F_K off" nor would I. I respect him too much and he me. Some of the relationships I read about on this board absolutely blow my mind. To each their own I suppose.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

karole said:


> But why would you ever talk to your husband like that to begin with? My husband and I have been together for 29 years and I don't think I've ever told him to "F_K off" nor would I. I respect him too much and he me. Some of the relationships I read about on this board absolutely blow my mind. To each their own I suppose.


He wouldn't have picked someone who we couldn't each tell to f-off sometimes. It says nothing about respect because neither of us put that much weight on it.

He's got a trucker mouth. F-off isn't even on his radar and as much as I couldn't deal with someone who was sensitive to swearing or angry words, or they damaged an ego or felt disrespectful, neither could he.

It would be like treating each other like a child and with kid gloves and THAT would be more disrespectful to us than swearing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Having had the pleasure of dealing with said emo-woman for a good amount of years, I can attest to the BS-ness of the premise. 

I don't mind pressure and being on the hot spot, but emo outbursts from either side generally speaking serve no purpose whatsoever so the quote above is more of an X-Games challenge than anything.

In addition, the person who thinks that his wife's emo outburst will be the major thing he needs to battle in life (instead of money, career, health, or existence while we are at it) has a lot to learn about life. 

I would rather work CALMLY with a non emo partner so we can both get to a better place, not to make her feel good.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I have this kind of relationship too. I "get" relationships that are super respectful and don't fight and they look pretty blissful but I'm too cold of a person naturally to be good in a relationship like this.


:toast: 
Ya neither of us are really the shiny, happy people type either. Even our compliments or happy times usually involve some kind of swearing, sarcasm, middle fingers, giving each other a hard time, and whatnot. That's just how we function and those things are just all in fun.

If I had to be guest-like or my work face on at all times with him I could not deal with it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

This is all I can picture when I think about me and H trying to be nice-y nice to each other all the time 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs3FFi2XcCU


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Well I have read and questioned that many times. In the end I've decided that she has a very unusual need in her relationship and, she has found a man who fills it, and another man who agrees that it is important. Personally as a submissive personality, I could never live with that expectation, nor do I need it from my Dominant partner. The right to "storm" is not a characteristic of my personality.


You have missed the point entirely. Men and women are very different. For example when men have a problem, they often want to go off and be somewhere quiet and mull over things, women want to talk and express, etc etc. When a man approaches his FEMALE as if she were another man (many men do, cause he thinks she is like him) that is when problems arise and vice versa. This quote is basically telling him to step back and not do that.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

It is disappointing to see how many of the males on this thread assume the writer is talking about an emotionally crazy woman.

That is actually part of the problem, men do not know how to deal with overflowing emotions, they back off , go run to their cave etc. To assume a woman should act cold and stoic and always have it under control (i.e. be like a man) is a ludicrous idea as they are not wired that way. Too many men use their male lens to view a woman and vice versa, hence the issues that arise. Dr Emerson Eggerich suggests that women have on their pink glasses and men their blue ones and see and feel things differently about the same situation.

Here is a funny clip but I think it helps to make the point. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxckAMaTDc


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> You have missed the point entirely. *Men and women are very different.* For example when men have a problem, they often want to go off and be somewhere quiet and mull over things, women want to talk and express, etc etc. When a man approaches his FEMALE as if she were another man (many men do, cause he thinks she is like him) that is when problems arise and vice versa. This quote is basically telling him to step back and not do that.


 @marduk 

Did you see this?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

You know the drill Guys, Don't put it in Crazy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Aine, people don't act out in emotional storms for fun...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I really like that video aine. I can relate so much to it. I'm going to show it to H. Comedy type videos like that are great for him, they don't sound like your being lectured.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> Aine, people don't act out in emotional storms for fun...


Of course not. Leaving aside women who may have deeper psychological issues or those with entitlement issues, normal women have emotional outbursts for a variety of reasons, disappointment, hurt, frustration, being misunderstood, emotional needs not met, heartache, fear, bitterness, unforgiveness, abandonment, etc. I am not saying that all emotional outbursts or storms are right (they can be destructive) but instead of looking at the 'storm' look at the roots of that storm. 
Men have emotions too but they handle them very differently, they walk away, hide from them, shut down, etc. Men probably do this because they have been told 'big boys don't cry' and it's not the manly thing to do. Women have no such problem with expressing emotions outwardly and loving H ought to understand that instead of being insulted or feeling disrespected any time it happens. Women are NOT men, period although (at the expense of sounding a little feminist) we are often expected to act like men.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> @jld - I thought you might find this interesting too.
> 
> Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? #2
> Interestingly enough, a sign of her trusting you may take the form of anger and resentment. If she changes from withdrawal to the state of conflict (which is an improvement), she will tell you how angry she is, and blame you for all of her depression. Her Taker will release its storehouse of resentment. Her shaming of you, and her disrespect will be hard for you to take, but it will give you an opportunity to hear from her Taker what she wants from you. You will have an opportunity to make a deal with her to compensate her for all of the pain she has suffered. If you can get though her attack without losing too many of her love units in your love bank, you will gain valuable information, and an opportunity from your wife to implement change.
> ...


I agree with this, generally when a woman stops nagging and withdraws, the H ought to get worried. Women like to resolve issues in a marriage and often identify them away before the H does. Her constant need to ensure the relationship is on an even keel can come across as nagging or too much in his face, that is the way women generally resolve issues. His response may be to withdraw, be callous in his comments and she nags even more.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

aine said:


> Of course not. Leaving aside women who may have deeper psychological issues or those with entitlement issues, normal women have emotional outbursts for a variety of reasons, disappointment, hurt, frustration, being misunderstood, emotional needs not met, heartache, fear, bitterness, unforgiveness, abandonment, etc. I am not saying that all emotional outbursts or storms are right (they can be destructive) but instead of looking at the 'storm' look at the roots of that storm.
> Men have emotions too but they handle them very differently, they walk away, hide from them, shut down, etc. Men probably do this because they have been told 'big boys don't cry' and it's not the manly thing to do. Women have no such problem with expressing emotions outwardly and loving H ought to understand that instead of being insulted or feeling disrespected any time it happens. Women are NOT men, period although (at the expense of sounding a little feminist) we are often expected to act like men.


Exactly! All my emotions have a reason and if he can look past the emotional part and get to the WHY then he can hear what I am saying and really connect and grow. 

H has different shades of happy and mad. He's just not emotional and just like you said, it's because he had to be tough. 
So when he gets quiet, I can go sit next to him and rub his back or give him a kiss. He doesn't want to talk about it but he likes to know I am there for him anyway and I can't dote on him or he'll get upset and annoyed, just a small connect and then let him do his thing.

If I get emotional, if he comes and sits next to me and rubs my back and gives me a kiss or lets me vent or what I am needing at that time then it will feel the same way.

Or I can complain about how quiet he's being and why won't he just talk to me about it or focus all on how he displays his emotion, and he could complain that I am too emotional and neither of us gets what we need.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

karole said:


> But why would you ever talk to your husband like that to begin with? My husband and I have been together for 29 years and I don't think I've ever told him to "F_K off" nor would I. I respect him too much and he me. Some of the relationships I read about on this board absolutely blow my mind. To each their own I suppose.


My husband and I have been together a total of 32 years. We've never called each other names and can't remember ever raising our voices. When I'm angry and upset at him, I do expect him to stick around and listened to what I have to say. Not walk out and pout somewhere because his feelings are hurt.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

technovelist said:


> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"
> 
> In particular, does it mean that the woman who has that as her signature and her husband are in a "power exchange dynamic" and she is the submissive?
> 
> That is anything but obvious to me, but perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't get it.


No BDSM undertones as far as I'm concerned.

I think the sentiment is a bunch of BS, personally. I certainly hope women have deeper feminine pleasures that making a man stand around waiting for her temper tantrum to finish. It has a very poor implication that women are unable to self-regulate their emotions, and it's the man's job to just endure it until she exhausts herself and comes around. For as long as it takes till she breaks down again or something.

Okay, wait, let's add ONE THING to make it make sense.



> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his *BPD* woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax."


I've never read the book, but to me, this Deida guy sounds like he's saying that all women are BPD. And I just don't believe that.

Personally, I prefer to surround myself with women who do not have "emotional storms."

Now I want to start a new thread about what might be a man's deepest masculine pleasure...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

aine said:


> Of course not. Leaving aside women who may have deeper psychological issues or those with entitlement issues, normal women have emotional outbursts for a variety of reasons, disappointment, hurt, frustration, being misunderstood, emotional needs not met, heartache, fear, bitterness, unforgiveness, abandonment, etc. I am not saying that all emotional outbursts or storms are right (they can be destructive) but instead of looking at the 'storm' look at the roots of that storm.
> Men have emotions too but they handle them very differently, they walk away, hide from them, shut down, etc. Men probably do this because they have been told 'big boys don't cry' and it's not the manly thing to do. Women have no such problem with expressing emotions outwardly and loving H ought to understand that instead of being insulted or feeling disrespected any time it happens. Women are NOT men, period although (at the expense of sounding a little feminist) we are often expected to act like men.


I tend to be a very rational person and while I believe emotions have their use, I feel that constant emotional "processing" by the mind becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. 

I enjoy emotions - and I strive to create them at work like any good user experience designer would - but at some point too much of a good thing is not a good thing. The human mind is not designed to run at WOT (wide open throttle) emotionally speaking.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Storm itself doesn't mean temper tantrum and it doesn't BPD.

I could be going through an emotional storm where I'm just having a really bad day, everything is going wrong, I'm super overwhelmed and one more thing screws up and I just need to go lay down in my room in the dark and have a good cry.

Or like the example earlier, you fight for hours over some stupid Christmas lights and you're ready to just scream at them. 

Or I've asked him to do something like 10 times and he keeps forgetting so I'm upset and say something rude.

Why is it so horrible to want your partner's support through times that you are a mess? My H has been going through a bit of a hard time with work so I support him with what he needs. I pack his food, I get all his stuff together, I make him his coffee. I don't get upset that he's needing to be supported or think that as an adult he should be able to deal with stuff like that so I shouldn't have to. If we're a team and best friends, we work together to help each other through the crap.

What I need- someone to just listen, talk to me, maybe give me a big hug or just some space or tell me to go run a bubble bath and chill and not get all sensitive and his ego hurt if I am acting kind of pissy. 

I was all the way in withdrawal mode not too long ago, coming back from that involved some conflict and usually it would end up in a fight and defensive and going around in circles. Now it is much more productive because he doesn't look at "she's b*tchy" and he looks at "Why is she b*tchy" and I don't get emotional as often. It's a learning curve and he still doesn't get all the emotional stuff but he is figuring out what makes it better. 

I can pinpoint a time the I felt one of the closest I have ever felt with him. I was upset, I can't even remember what about but I went to the shower to just cry and calm down. All of a sudden he came in there, took off his clothes, got in the shower and just stood there hugging me. There's really nothing like being held by nice, strong arms and feeling that everything is going to be ok and it is a feminine pleasure of mine. He just doesn't have the same desire to be held by nice, strong arms and cry on someone's shoulder for a while. For me to feel so small and wrapped up so safe just made me fall more in love.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Beautiful post, SGC. Many great posts by you today.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes to this. The WHY matters. 

I mentioned this on another thread - it's worth repeating here. 

Emotional alignment is a key theme in most relationships. Some simple examples are:
- When M2 is angry at one of the kids, she wants ME to be angry at them as well. 
- When either of us is happy or excited about something, we certainly like it if our partner joins in that happiness. And dislike it if they rain on our parade. 

But then - how does that work when one of you is tense/unhappy about a situation at work. And you are radiating those emotions while going on and on about whatever it is. 

Alignment in that situation is a train wreck. 

This is when a typical man goes into problem solving mode. But at least for me, that was a selfish act. Meaning, I was doing it for me because M2's anxiety was making me feel anxious and I wanted her to STOP DOING THAT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.   

What happens when you combine a tense/unhappy person with a calm person. 

Well that's up to - the calm person. It just is. Once I learned not to make it about me, the whole dynamic shifted. 




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Storm itself doesn't mean temper tantrum and it doesn't BPD.
> 
> I could be going through an emotional storm where I'm just having a really bad day, everything is going wrong, I'm super overwhelmed and one more thing screws up and I just need to go lay down in my room in the dark and have a good cry.
> 
> ...


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

aine said:


> I agree with this, generally when a woman stops nagging and withdraws, the H ought to get worried. Women like to resolve issues in a marriage and often identify them away before the H does. Her constant need to ensure the relationship is on an even keel can come across as nagging or too much in his face, that is the way women generally resolve issues. His response may be to withdraw, be callous in his comments and she nags even more.


:iagree: Oh how true. I almost feel that this should be a sticky.:smile2:

That being said, I've learned that this dynamic doesn't resolve anything. I've therefore adjusted my way of dealing with conflict. I show emotion, I explain why I feel that way and that's the end of it -- no need to rehash for hours on end. H now ALWAYS supports and reassures me once I've explained myself this manner. He is receptive and even though he may not UNDERSTAND my feelings because he isn't wired that way, he is supportive. This is all I ask. To be able to express myself freely without having H storm out. withdraw, or counter-attack. etc.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't agree with this idea that men do "this" when they feel emotional and women do "that". When DH gets stressed/annoyed/angry whatever, there's no quietly cold statue standing there... there's expletives, anger, barely controlled voice etc. I'm not complaining, it's just the way it is. He's not a robot and neither am I. I do ask him to keep it down as he sits there at work swearing at the screen (we work in the same office) because it's distracting. Anyway, the point is, can we stop trying to put everyone in boxes marked with either "male" or "female" and pretending that they'll all be the same as each other once they are in that box?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

aine said:


> I dont think the writer is trying to say that women are helter skelter out of control emotional beings and men should just ride the storm.
> The reality is that as women, we are very different from men, emotionally, hormonally and our brains and way of thinking are very different. We like to multitask, talk through things to figure out our emotions not for solutions but just to feel better, we like to talk through things for emotional closeness and connection, when that is not happening we pursue our Hs for closeness, becoming 'disturbed' by his inability to 'see' what and how we see (whether it is the state of the relationship, his coldness, his brusqueness, etc) we react and can use our words in ways that are far from loving or respectful (in fact the objective is usually a desire to draw close, to have him understand) and it results in more dismissal or coldness. If a man can get the fact that instead of reacting with hurtful words, becoming cold or callous but being present and willing to see through the fracas to her heart then he has much power to dissolve the situation and in her eyes she knows he can be totally trusted with her heart.
> 
> I get this.





aine said:


> You have missed the point entirely. Men and women are very different. For example when men have a problem, they often want to go off and be somewhere quiet and mull over things, women want to talk and express, etc etc. When a man approaches his FEMALE as if she were another man (many men do, cause he thinks she is like him) that is when problems arise and vice versa. This quote is basically telling him to step back and not do that.










...I've enjoyed your posts on this thread Aine.. my own 2 or 3 cents here.... 

I can surely attest in our own marriage that I am the more "emotive" being.. my husband is always the calm stable breeze.. . I am very "expressive".. I would struggle to hide how I am feeling to my husband.. one thing I love dearly about him.. and it never fails is.. he can READ ME.. if I am the least bit upset.. he will come to me & ask me what is wrong... he genuinely cares.. and this warm feeling washes all over me.. 

I appreciate this so much..and I tell him so.. . He knows me enough to know it's not healthy for me to try to STUFF my emotions.. he understands I need to talk... HE WANTS THIS... wouldn't have it any other way... this is not to suggest every woman like this is abusive.. in our situation.. my husband is so damn sweet that if I became abusive.. I would be a freaking lunatic [email protected]# 

... I generally treat him like a KING.. I cater to him, I am very validating to when I feel loved, cared for, wanted..

When I do get upset.. it is almost always over something else.. not him at all!... 

He is the type of guy who wants to comfort me.. doesn't find it a drain.. I am also not the type to beat around the bush, using comments like "FINE"... when it could have a completely different meaning... I will spell it out... but he is one who allows me to DO this.. without running from the room (as JLD speaks of).. or being offended.. he does look at the ROOTS...how very important this is [email protected]# 

Now I can see both sides -when reading the various posts on this thread... some women can get out of hand.. *while the man may not have done ANYTHING*.. this is very disrespectful and ugly behavior!! Such women have issues.. they are taking their men for granted (he has allowed it to go on)...and really.. if such women have a conscience.. she should be ashamed, come to her senses.. and apologize.. 

Then sometimes husbands are oblivious to how they are hurting their wives..not spending time with them, listening to them... if such a man is the type to shut her down & walk out of the room.. this will breed more HURT and anger from her...she may have learned to not rock the boat.. she may be in fear of him, or feel it is hopeless.... this is not healthy either...those emotions have to go somewhere....

Too much of this...either communication will die.. she will give up, resentment walls up, they will end up ignoring each other, intimacy lost.... or she will explode in emotions.. and this gives them the opportunity to hash it out.. it's not conflict that destroys couples.. it's not resolving the conflict.. this is a very important point missed in this thread.. that different couples deal in different ways..

Read the various conflict styles..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ead-4-types-5-1-ratio-marriage-conflicts.html

The one that destroys is not "*VOLATILE*" which is "Erupting Passionate disputes/ arguments"...it's "*HOSTILE*".. " Argue often/ hotly, put downs & sarcasms prevail". (no resolution)...









The smart man, the caring man.. if he has contributed to her hurt and frustration will listen to her.. let her get it out.. and admit where he has Fcked it up and could do better.. Soothing & active listening can go a long way! 

I have never lived with this situation, mind you.... but I can still sympathize greatly with women who DO...if they explode or seek to leave.. I GET IT !... I would not have the patience to live with a man like this.. just saying.. there are certain* needs* we all have.. this is no different to me -over the husband feeling sex starved, keeps getting shut off and he gets grouchy.. he , too, may have an outburst (you been there guys!??) .. and women put up a wall.. should we.. or should we LISTEN.. feel his side, his frustration in wanting to hold us close...or do we just point the finger that it's his problem... It takes 2 to care & seek the roots to satisfy each other... 

Just like a women NEEDS to express her emotions - when they have built up... I do feel this is a general divide of the sexes for MANY couples.. 

In our marriage.. when I need to hash something out.. I always know he is there to listen to me.. give me time.. this is very calming to me... so long as I don't try to stuff... we have reasonable healthy communications.. this doesn't mean we always agree ... but we find that middle ground so we're both at peace, feeling embraced , forgiven, wanted.. whatever we seek..

Jld has shared 2 analogies about her relationship..to help ME understand their personal dynamics...one was the "FORT analogy".. (never forgot this. I felt her frustration in sharing it [email protected]#)...where she sometimes feels she is standing outside of a Fort.. Dug is in that Fort... she *can't *get his attention.. she eventually starts to throw rocks at the windows... time passes.. she is still standing there... (imagine how lonely this would feel )....then finally.. eventually...someone opens the door.. and says "is someone out here knocking?"... Now just let me say... I can easily see a woman's frustration with this scenario... and how she may be on the verge of exploding to her man.. 

Is Dug faultless here? Do you think JLD would unleash if she wasn't feeling like this? Now the fact he can handle her, and he can see that he contributes to these outbursts .. yeah it's a part of their dynamics.. it's more volatile over other relationships, sure.... but who are we to judge..if it works.. 

And Dug has his own analogy about JLD ... I was very touched by it, she shared with me one day ... showing how much he greatly & deeply appreciates her, TRUSTS her like no other and even finds her EASY to live with.. it was about riding a bicycle uphill at times, but all smooth sailing after you reach the top.... maybe he can share it.. to give clarity to where he is coming from...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeah, he laughs at the idea I could abuse him in any way. 

I will look for that post he made about the bicycle . . .


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It never occurred to me that Dug would feel abused - this is the type of marriage he and jld have. She was very hurt and very vulnerable when he came into her life and apparently he has given her love and stability. It would be nice if he could give her the companionship she desires so her emotions don't build up to an eruption. None of us know how long we have on this earth so putting off companionship until the kids are grown or you're retired is risky. My concerns are for jld.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

This is what SA was referring to. I had gotten upset with Dug and been quite _transparent_  about it.


_Let me clarify a few things. JLD's attitude yesterday may seem extreme, but it is not. She was upset but there was no yelling. What happened yesterday has happened hundreds of time before. It is a storm followed by sunshine.

Another way to put it, is like bicycling in the mountain. Climbing the hill is hard and no fun but, when you get to the top, you really appreciate the scenery, much more than if you had taken a car. And you really have fun going down hill to go back home.

When we were first together, her anger concerned me and I reacted with anger back. It did not help at all and I quickly figured out that her anger was just a reaction to deeper fears. Actually it is true for everyone. So I try to keep this perspective when JLD acts that way, or anyone else for that matter.

After a few weeks of being together I realized that she cannot lie. There is no buffer between what she thinks and what she says. Everything comes out.

Once you understand this and you can cope with the outbursts, it is actually very easy to live with her, because you never have to guess what she is thinking or feeling. When thinking about it, I must say it is far better to have a quick storm and long period of sunshine than clouds for weeks.

JLD has no issue to say it the way it is. Actually she does not want to disappoint and wants to show her worst side. Like this you will not be disappointed as you get to know her.

It is like buying a car. If you buy it from the used car salesman, you are likely to have unpleasant surprises because he is never going to tell you the issues with the car. If JLD sells the car she will tell you all the things wrong with the car, right away. You will not have any surprises.

The reason JLD has outburst is because she can. She knows I am not going to freak out. It is safe for her to do it.

The issue is not whether or not JLD will stop worrying, it is what she worries about. I am much happier when she worries about the fact I do not spend enough time with her than when it is about our son's health or her own health.

JLD is intense. She will be intense no matter what. I am just fine to have her intense about TAM or Paul Krugman before that. She learns and, I believe, is an inspiration for many, or at least for me._


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Exactly! All my emotions have a reason and if he can look past the emotional part and get to the WHY then he can hear what I am saying and really connect and grow.


Why don't you just tell him the reason behind your emotions? Then he can get to the WHY quicker.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I certainly hope women have deeper feminine pleasures that making a man stand around waiting for her temper tantrum to finish.


Me too


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Yes to this. The WHY matters.
> 
> I mentioned this on another thread - it's worth repeating here.
> 
> ...


Holy smokes! It was a bit scary reading this post Mem. I had a conversation with my H last night that covered 'emotional alignment' using the same general examples you gave. He loves the happy fun Lila, but goes into problem solver mode when I'm unhappy. And you're right, it's not exactly what I want or need from him at those times.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> Why don't you just tell him the reason behind your emotions? Then he can get to the WHY quicker.


I do when he cares enough to listen. 

If he just decides I'm being b*tchy and ignores me, doesn't talk or listen, then he'll never get to the why. 

If he sees that I'm upset and he either asks "what's wrong? what do you need?" or he listens to what I am saying then we can fix it. 

And the fact is, many women will try to calmly express themselves many times before they just lose it and act emotional. Their husbands just don't notice until it's gotten to that point.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

jld, I wish there was a way for Dug to spend more time with you. Homeschooling children is no picnic and, of course, you're going to want interaction with an adult - preferably one you love.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Blondilocks said:


> It never occurred to me that Dug would feel abused - this is the type of marriage he and jld have. She was very hurt and very vulnerable when he came into her life and apparently he has given her love and stability. * It would be nice if he could give her the companionship she desires so her emotions don't build up to an eruption. * None of us know how long we have on this earth so putting off companionship until the kids are grown or you're retired is risky. *My concerns are for jld.*


 I feel the same Blondilocks.. I truly do... With her Fort analogy... (can you find that post too JLD)... it was good.. even if I found it sad ... though I remember you ending it by saying something like... but when he steps out that door...and he's there for you.. it all melts away.. and you feel SO SPECIAL...or something to this effect, so the attraction is still going strong..... 

and I am thinking explicits at this point...







... I mean I see YOU as very forgiving... overlooking many things that some of us could not.. or would not.. 



jld said:


> This is what SA was referring to. I had gotten upset with Dug and been quite _transparent_  about it.
> 
> 
> _Let me clarify a few things. JLD's attitude yesterday may seem extreme, but it is not. She was upset but there was no yelling. What happened yesterday has happened hundreds of time before. It is a storm followed by sunshine.
> ...


I never read this...just your explaining it to me.... I laughed so hard when he spoke of you being a Used car salesman.. how you'd tell him outright everything wrong with the car -to heck with the sale [email protected]# Just loved that.. you are a rare Gem Jld.... when our world seems full of white liars and back stabbers.. this is a breath of fresh air.. 

There is many wonderful things here... maybe another man would have issues..but your's da** well appreciates YOU being YOU... 

In any intimate relationship...I'm BIG on feeling we "affect" each other in profound ways.. one of the greatest gifts we can bring to each other is not that we're perfect (we all fall short somewhere - come on now!)....but that we're sensitively "self aware" to how our actions, or non actions (neglect)...attitude...and yes words, too, can affect the other.. then to have compassion - to listen & hear the other out.. 

We will have Bad days, stressed days... we're human..... Husbands will be oblivious ... and wives will react emotionally....(in our marriage I have been more oblivious & more emotional -poor man but he still wouldn't trade me either - my H has compared me to our Winter driveway, I am intense too .. ha ha in a post a few yrs back here >>



SA's husband said:


> Everything my wife does is intense. This includes when she gets irritated. With her words she has made me feel like I couldn't please her that I am not enough. But I still wouldn't change who she is because it doesn't happen very often, I can live with that.
> 
> What we have is so beautiful the majority of the time, it's like our driveway, we have a nice peice of land hard to get in and out in the winter, it is perfect all summer long, then I have a few bad days getting in and out, have to salt it, scrape it. That's my wife, she's worth it.
> 
> I'm not perfect, I've said things I needed to apologize for, she just does it more.



where would any of us be without offering some Grace.. our spouses see the best in us, when our love is passionate & deep...but they also see the worst, the horns..







.. that's what vulnerability and intimacy allows... and darn if any of us would trade it!!.... we have the ability to allow love to rise to the surface...recognizing the GOOD in the midst of the storm...

Can we see the silver lining...


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> @marduk
> 
> Did you see this?


There's a difference between how boys are socialized to deal with interpersonal stress or conflict and biological hardwiring to do so.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

aine said:


> It is disappointing to see how many of the males on this thread assume the writer is talking about an emotionally crazy woman.
> 
> That is actually part of the problem, men do not know how to deal with overflowing emotions, they back off , go run to their cave etc. To assume a woman should act cold and stoic and always have it under control (i.e. be like a man) is a ludicrous idea as they are not wired that way. Too many men use their male lens to view a woman and vice versa, hence the issues that arise. Dr Emerson Eggerich suggests that women have on their pink glasses and men their blue ones and see and feel things differently about the same situation.
> 
> ...


I see. So women have it right and men have it wrong.

I'm sure that's helpful somehow.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> This is when a typical man goes into problem solving mode. But at least for me, that was a selfish act. Meaning, I was doing it for me because M2's anxiety was making me feel anxious and I wanted her to STOP DOING THAT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.


I struggle how you wanting her anxiety over (and yours) over as quickly as possible is selfish.

One can emote about anxiety all one wants, and all that tends to happen is anxiety gets ramped up in an ever-expanding circle.

There's nothing wrong with attempting to fix or resolve something -- as long as you listen first.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

technovelist said:


> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"
> 
> In particular, does it mean that the woman who has that as her signature and her husband are in a "power exchange dynamic" and she is the submissive?
> 
> That is anything but obvious to me, but perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't get it.


sounds to me like justification for your man to be a doormat.


----------



## Space Mountain (Jul 19, 2015)

technovelist said:


> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"
> 
> In particular, does it mean that the woman who has that as her signature and her husband are in a "power exchange dynamic" and she is the submissive?
> 
> That is anything but obvious to me, but perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't get it.


It means while the storm is raging, most normal men are thinking in their mind:

1) Is this going to take long?
2) Who is playing tonight?
3) I'm hungry. When are we going to eat?
4) Don't forget to make eye contact every now and then.
5) Does that vein in her head always stick out when she is 
raging?
6) Who would win in a fair fight? Captain America or Ironman?
7) Don't forget to give the complimentary head nod in
agreement every now and then. 
8) I wonder if she will be in the mood later.
9) What am I going to have for lunch tomorrow? 
10) Where could I buy a Batmobile?
11) Oh God, I hope she does not want to watch the Notebook 
again tonight.
12) Did I just doze off?
13) Could I get away with faking my own death?
14) She is almost done. Don't forget to give her a 
complimentary Yes Dear or I see your point. Maybe I
might even stroke her hair and touch her cheek this time.
15) I'm still hungry. When are we going to eat?

Most guys don't get it and would not even try to get it. It requires to much effort and ambition. They just go to their happy place until the hurricane blows over.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> I see. So women have it right and men have it wrong.
> 
> I'm sure that's helpful somehow.


Marduk, I do not recall writing that anywhere and to say otherwise is incorrect. There is no right or wrong just differences. 
To analyse a woman through the male lens is much the same as a women analysing a man through her female lens. For others to say that men and women should not be fit into stereotyped gender specific characteristics are incorrect also. Research shows otherwise. 

Men's and women's brains: the truth! As research proves the sexes' brains ARE wired differently, why women's are cleverer ounce for ounce - and men can't read female feelings | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

aine said:


> Marduk, I do not recall writing that anywhere and to say otherwise is incorrect. There is no right or wrong just differences.
> To analyse a woman through the male lens is much the same as a women analysing a man through her female lens. For others to say that men and women should not be fit into stereotyped gender specific characteristics are incorrect also. Research shows otherwise.
> 
> Men's and women's brains: the truth! As research proves the sexes' brains ARE wired differently, why women's are cleverer ounce for ounce - and men can't read female feelings | Daily Mail Online


"Men do not know how to deal with overflowing emotions"

And all of those positions in those articles have been demonstrated to be 100% bunk. 

If you want to quote a source, the daily mail probably ain't it. 

Here, pick one or a dozen of these. 
https://www.google.ca/search?q=mens+and+womens+brains


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> "Men do not know how to deal with overflowing emotions"
> 
> And all of those positions in those articles have been demonstrated to be 100% bunk.
> 
> ...



i agree the DM is far from a peer reviewed academic journal > but having said that there is research to back this up, I guess you too can find opposing research, and so it goes. 

I know based on my own experience, there is a difference, a big one and it is quite short sighted to think otherwise imo, but that's my opinion. The videos by Mark Gungor I've seen before, and they very clearly demonstrate (in jest) that there is a difference, so the of your reference is?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

aine said:


> i agree the DM is far from a peer reviewed academic journal > but having said that there is research to back this up, I guess you too can find opposing research, and so it goes.
> 
> I know based on my own experience, there is a difference, a big one and it is quite short sighted to think otherwise imo, but that's my opinion. The videos by Mark Gungor I've seen before, and they very clearly demonstrate (in jest) that there is a difference, so the of your reference is?


My point is that men's and women's brains are almost identical and show more variations within the genders than between them. 

And that most of the biases are in fact cultural, and part of the problem. 

insulting one gender does not improve the other, in fact it denigrates it the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,
Perhaps you might consider the following. 

The EXACT same threat/response pattern helps you so much at the Dojo, just kills you with your wife. 

I'd say there is a 50-50 chance that folks think I've been brain washed -   

The truth is that someone simply asked me what exactly it was I was afraid of. 

If your spouse can't physically or financially harm you, what's the real fear? 

And that's when I realized that there was no REAL fear. Just a knee jerk, conditioned response. Nothing else. 

So the question then becomes, what happens if I pour a lite mix of stabilizing energy into a tense, combative situation. 

Marduk,
I respect you. I admit though, that when it comes to your wife you're a bit of a mystery. In relation to all external threats to the family, you completely own the 'security' aspect of the marriage. 

But when it comes to internal security, I question whether you actually hear anything I say. 

When my M2 is wound up, the security I provide is to protect her from herself. Not from me. 

And I cannot do that if I allow her anxiety or anger to put me in combat mode. 

Women have been living with us men - with bigger stronger mates for tens of thousands generations. They automatically read our emotional state. Effortlessly. Continuously. 

In the old marriage. Didn't matter at all if I refrained from speaking. When I was upset, I was pouring negative emotional energy into an already tense situation. 

There is no neutrality in these situations. You are either a net positive or a net negative. And being silent is not relevant. I'm still radiating something - good or bad - into the room. 




marduk said:


> I struggle how you wanting her anxiety over (and yours) over as quickly as possible is selfish.
> 
> One can emote about anxiety all one wants, and all that tends to happen is anxiety gets ramped up in an ever-expanding circle.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with attempting to fix or resolve something -- as long as you listen first.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> Perhaps you might consider the following.
> 
> The EXACT same threat/response pattern helps you so much at the Dojo, just kills you with your wife.
> ...


I do actually hear you.

I'm just not sure I agree with you.

My wife wants me to protect her from herself, too. Only when I do, the result is a rapid downturn on the relationship from:
1. "you're so controlling" when I attempt to intercede when she does something self-destructive
2. an ingrained response from her acting out -> me smoothing life over -> more acting out -> more me smoothing over -> an even more extreme response -> etc... because... _she's actually looking for the consequence._
3. we both have the personality type that we need to learn lessens ourselves. 
4. I have very little interest in protecting her from natural consequences of her own making. In fact, I think this is a core fundamental error lots of people make -- the 'white knighting.'

What I have trouble reconciling with your advice is that when I go this direction, within weeks... we're on the divorce path. I can be all zenned out, or an emotional warm blanket, but it just pisses her off more.


> And I cannot do that if I allow her anxiety or anger to put me in combat mode.


On that I agree. And I have a long way to go. 


> Women have been living with us men - with bigger stronger mates for tens of thousands generations. They automatically read our emotional state. Effortlessly. Continuously.
> 
> In the old marriage. Didn't matter at all if I refrained from speaking. When I was upset, I was pouring negative emotional energy into an already tense situation.


I do not hide my emotions well, but I am very good at realizing other's emotional states -- many times even before they do.



> There is no neutrality in these situations. You are either a net positive or a net negative. And being silent is not relevant. I'm still radiating something - good or bad - into the room.


I've met truly neutral folks. In fact, you see them in the zendo or the dojo all the time. They're the master sitting in the corner watching everything, reacting to nothing, but with quiet amusement.

I'm not that guy, so I agree with the statement.

My wife craves the negative sometimes. All kinds of reasons why... and it's not the 99% of the time, it's the 1% of the time -- but that 1% seems to really, really help her feel safe and keep things on track.

Does that make sense?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,

Yes. So now I hope you will believe that the rest of this is purely based on my actual experience. 

When M2 is agitated - I'm with her in the sense of being highly engaged. And she can tell I feel bad FOR her, I am hardly talking at all other than the odd question or empathetic sound or two. 

I am almost in an entirely NVC (non verbal communication) mode. More important - I'm in a 'clocks off' mode. It is not for me to set the pace in these situations. A minute, an hour, a day. 

Never a better situation than this one to demonstrate that less is more. 

I'm present - engaged - just not really doing anything more than radiating a very soft NVC signal. 

If M2 seems like she might be upset with me I ask. 

Sometimes she will 'find' something I haven't done that I said I would. That's what I call a synthetic outlet. Allows her to be mad at me for a 'reason'. It's really not hard to say: sorry, my bad, will take care of that tomorrow. Or even: I can do that now if you like. 

I used to get wound up by that - it's kind of dirty fighting. But now I usually don't. Funny think about that. Stopped reacting to it and M2 largely stopped doing it. 

It wasn't really ever an avenue to HER being mad at me. Just a vehicle for getting ME to be upset. Emotionally aligned. With her. 

This is truly - hard core marital conflict. 

The dominant is the person who's emotional state prevails. Used to be M2. Not any more. 

She loves me MORE now. 



marduk said:


> I do actually hear you.
> 
> I'm just not sure I agree with you.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,
As far as the self destructive situations go, we all struggle with them. None of us wants our partner to cause themselves pain or injury. 

Until you get to the point where your M2 isn't impacting your vital signs at all, it will be difficult to help her. 

Once I allow myself to become part of the situation, maybe half all my energy goes into suppressing external signs of distress. 

Managing my volume, as I tend to talk louder and faster when tense. And my body language. 

I only intervene aggressively if we are in the car and the situation warrants.





marduk said:


> I do actually hear you.
> 
> I'm just not sure I agree with you.
> 
> ...


----------



## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

To me it looks like a bunch of nonsensical tripe effectively stating a man should sit there and eat his wife's sh*t if she feels like verbally and emotionally abusing him.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Yes. So now I hope you will believe that the rest of this is purely based on my actual experience.
> 
> ...


Help me understand.

Because from reading that, I struggle with how you're the dominant personality when all I read is that you're servicing her emotional comfort.

Does this happen continually, or is it a comparatively rare event?

Do you do it because your wife is incapable of settling herself emotionally?

Or unwilling?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Frequency is maybe 10 times per year,

Used to be more often than that.




marduk said:


> Help me understand.
> 
> Because from reading that, I struggle with how you're the dominant personality when all I read is that you're servicing her emotional comfort.
> 
> ...


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Frequency is maybe 10 times per year,
> 
> Used to be more often than that.


So it's more like an anomaly to normal life, which once swept aside, returns to normal?

Does it map to her cycle?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Used to. 

No cycle left - part of being 53 





marduk said:


> So it's more like an anomaly to normal life, which once swept aside, returns to normal?
> 
> Does it map to her cycle?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Used to.
> 
> No cycle left - part of being 53


10 times a year is awfully suspicious...



> Not only do you have to contend with periods that may be extremely irregular, but your PMS symptoms may actually get worse. Also, if you're prone to mood swings during pre menstrual syndrome (PMS), you're more likely to suffer from mood swings during menopause.


6 Little-Known Facts about Menopause | 34-menopause-symptoms.com


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

marduk said:


> Help me understand.
> 
> Because from reading that, I struggle with how you're the dominant personality when all I read is that you're servicing her emotional comfort.
> 
> ...


I see it this way: your wife pokes you to get a reaction, and you give it to her. She pokes, you react. She learns, she *knows* she can poke and you will react. Who is controlling the dynamic here? Who exactly is serving the emotional conflict?

Take a different dynamic: she pokes you and you don't react. She tries harder to poke, and you still don't react. She pokes, and pokes, you don't react. Eventually she gives up poking because it doesn't work. While controls the dynamic here? Who is serving the emotional conflict?

You said somewhere that your wife *needs* this reaction, that she is happier to get it than not. Why? Because getting the reaction shows her the power she has.

Please know: I'm not at all suggesting that you stonewall or act impervious just to prove your own power. That would be tit for tat, and will do nothing but exacerbate your problem. Rather, I'm trying to point out that her ability to control your emotions makes her more powerful than you in your current dynamics. And it will only be when she genuinely cannot control you that she will stop pushing your buttons.

Because you love drama, because you nurture and support it, you have a lot of drama to deal with.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

always_alone said:


> I see it this way: your wife pokes you to get a reaction, and you give it to her. She pokes, you react. She learns, she *knows* she can poke and you will react. Who is controlling the dynamic here? Who exactly is serving the emotional conflict?
> 
> Take a different dynamic: she pokes you and you don't react. She tries harder to poke, and you still don't react. She pokes, and pokes, you don't react. Eventually she gives up poking because it doesn't work.


No, eventually she will do something over the top like calling me names in front of the kids, threatening divorce in front of the kids, storming out of the house, and then she gets serious.

Eventually she does something that _must_ provoke a reaction.



> You said somewhere that your wife *needs* this reaction, that she is happier to get it than not. Why? Because getting the reaction shows her the power she has.


Maybe there's an element of that, but I think it has more to do with validation of her as a person than it does trying to exert power over me.


> Because you love drama, because you nurture and support it, you have a lot of drama to deal with.


Now that I can get behind.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

marduk said:


> Now that I can get behind.


It's all the same thing, marduk. You nurture drama, she gives you drama. 

It sounds to me like she also loves it, and so you two seem a good match. But if she is escalating like that, pretty much guaranteed you are nurturing that escalation.

Looking for validation is pretty much the same thing as looking for power. Without validation, how do you know the other person even sees you, let alone cares?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KC,
I have likely posted exactly the same comment as you just did at one point or another. 

If you don't mind, lets rotate the field of view so that it is solely your view of the world. 

If you will humor me for a moment, I'll describe this from my own viewport. 

M2 would say something like: you ALWAYS followed by an unflattering but fairly rare response pattern. 

You always get angry when ..... happens. 

The truth is that that kind of unflattering distortion used to infuriate me. 

Doesn't change my vitals at all any more. 

The real questions in this type situation are:
1. What do I believe 
2. What does M2 believe
3. What is M2 actually saying
4. If M2 is saying stuff that is clearly untrue, why is that MY problem? 

M2 is nothing if not a keen observer. She knows what's true. So when she goes into intensive button pushing mode - it's because she feels bad and is trying to feel LESS bad. 

When that occurs I can respond to her symptoms - or try and help her address whatever the REAL issue is. 





knobcreek said:


> To me it looks like a bunch of nonsensical tripe effectively stating a man should sit there and eat his wife's sh*t if she feels like verbally and emotionally abusing him.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,
I had a very smart friend who told me that most of the intense negative feelings we experience emanate from the same source. And that source is the 'fear of loss'. The fear of losing things that we treasure. Especially people that we love. 

When your partner is having a melt down, there really is only one rational question. Is this about me? 

Regardless of the answer, allowing fear and it's instantaneous offspring - anger - to drive your response - is unlikely to produce an optimal outcome. 






always_alone said:


> It's all the same thing, marduk. You nurture drama, she gives you drama.
> 
> It sounds to me like she also loves it, and so you two seem a good match. But if she is escalating like that, pretty much guaranteed you are nurturing that escalation.
> 
> Looking for validation is pretty much the same thing as looking for power. Without validation, how do you know the other person even sees you, let alone cares?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,
Yes. Familiar with this pattern. Desperate to get a response, she escalates wildly. 

Fluent with your pattern also. This theme you raise about who is 'serving' who. I am serving. Carrying. This is what the stronger person does. 

No matter how agitated M2 gets, it doesn't change the answer to this question. Who is the most important person in the world to me. So if M2 gets into a 5150 type state, I just ask her that question. 

As far as the kids go. What does it mean when they see a person who is upset and out of control, trying to fight with someone who is radiating calm, compassion and love. 

I do not like it if M2 talks about leaving me, but it has now been a long time since she's done so. Besides, you must know this by now. A woman who wants to leave, does so. Talking, no screaming in fury about leaving is usually something else entirely. 

If I were to feel a deep fear of loss - that fear is not triggered by partner rage, but rather by indifference.





marduk said:


> No, eventually she will do something over the top like calling me names in front of the kids, threatening divorce in front of the kids, storming out of the house, and then she gets serious.
> 
> Eventually she does something that _must_ provoke a reaction.
> 
> ...


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> Yes. Familiar with this pattern. Desperate to get a response, she escalates wildly.
> 
> Fluent with your pattern also. This theme you raise about who is 'serving' who. I am serving. Carrying. This is what the stronger person does.
> ...


Here's what I've found de-escalates my wife _sometimes..._

Humour. Sometimes she is acting out in ways that are so histrionic and over the top that I just burst out laughing. I know that is not good and @jld would say I'm being disrespectful, but sometimes I just cannot help it. A few times that has yeilded in her just coming over and crawling in my arms and apologizing, and a few times it's just escalated things more. 

Leaving. I don't mean leaving the house or anything necessarily, sometimes just leaving the room is enough. I find this is probably the most reliable way to wind her back down. Usually it's led by my stating that this behaviour is not appropriate and that I'm not going to deal with it until she's ready.

What reliably _doesn't_ work: ignoring it, trying to talk her through it, trying to be rational, or trying to stay present and calm.

Going ballistic myself actually works quite well, but terrifies the hell out of her, and it takes quite a bit of time to get our relationship back on track -- so I've done my best to not go there.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,
You continue to describe the exact same pattern that M2 and I had.

And that my man is a good thing. Because if I got from there - to here - anyone can. 

Try and save you some time though. 

Not certain what you mean by: 'Trying to talk her through it' 

But I'll tell you what. When M2 is agitated the only channel that matters is the NVC channel. Talk - if there is any at all coming from me - is very minimal. 

And I'm sure as heck not trying to guide the conversation or walk her through anything. 






marduk said:


> Here's what I've found de-escalates my wife _sometimes..._
> 
> Humour. Sometimes she is acting out in ways that are so histrionic and over the top that I just burst out laughing. I know that is not good and @jld would say I'm being disrespectful, but sometimes I just cannot help it. A few times that has yeilded in her just coming over and crawling in my arms and apologizing, and a few times it's just escalated things more.
> 
> ...


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> You continue to describe the exact same pattern that M2 and I had.
> 
> And that my man is a good thing. Because if I got from there - to here - anyone can.
> ...


OK, so what's the non-verbal communication that you use? Specifically?

I'll give it a go!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,
I have a genuine aversion to folks who spout Zen like phrases that I am incapable of deciphering. 

So - please tell me if that is happening here. I don't want that outcome. 

First - is the hard part. I'm going to focus almost entirely on that. Then we can do the easy parts. 

The hard part was this. My very strong 'self perception' included the following descriptors:
- Not a combative person
- Generally favors a diplomatic style - truthful but nice about it
- Good at conflict 
- Good at combat
- Generally not a fearful person
- Not willing to be anyone's doormat

Thing is, my reviews at work all lined up pretty well with this. And at work - this mix of traits worked very well for me. 

Anyway - the image of a guy standing there getting hammered by his angry wife - that image screamed 'doormat'. Especially when he hadn't done anything to provoke this outburst. 

So then I edited the scene. The new scene is in a bar. There's me and my opponent. Except I now 'virtualize' my opponent by mapping marital power differences to his size. 

Physical power difference with M2 is huge. My virtual opponent is now a foot shorter than me. Financial power difference - huge. There goes another foot. Raw IQ, not huge but there is a gap. So maybe 6" there. 

So my virtual opponent is now the size of a 6 year old child. He's armed only with his fury - which FWIW is a mystery to me. No idea why he is mad at me. But he is. 

Do I leave the bar? No.
Do I fight him? Hell no. 

Do I even have a mild adrenaline response to this chap, who on his best day can't bruise me? No. 

My reaction to him is - I'm purely curious as to WHY he wants to hurt me. 

So the first step in this process - is - to acknowledge that there is no basis for 'flight', when your opponent can't harm you. 

Oh - sorry - I left one thing out. In this simulation, the other fellow starts out the size of a 6 year old, but if I get angry he expands in size. Eventually he's bigger than me. 

Oh and one more thing. He might be the size of a 6 year old. But my little Tavern terror is of age. 

So my first move is to offer him a seat next to me, and buy him a beer. 

Anyway after writing, directing and watching this scene a few times I went back to the original scene. 

I'm in the kitchen with M2 and she is being - aggressive with me. But now, instead of picturing myself as either a combatant or worse a doormat. I'm simply unaffected by her behavior, other than I'm curious as to WHY she is upset. And yeah - I feel bad for her, because she clearly feels bad.....

There is no fight or flight response to someone who can't hurt you. 

And we aren't big drinkers, but I might ask her if she wants a glass of club soda - her favorite.....





marduk said:


> OK, so what's the non-verbal communication that you use? Specifically?
> 
> I'll give it a go!


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> I have a genuine aversion to folks who spout Zen like phrases that I am incapable of deciphering.
> 
> So - please tell me if that is happening here. I don't want that outcome.
> ...


This isn't computing for me.

I get the whole "don't be threatened by your wife" deal. Trust me. I'm a black belt there.

But, if you're in a bar getting raged at by a six year old, you're not going to do anything but walk away from her, right? Because you can't beat up a six year old, but neither can you rationalize with her -- if it's your kid, you give them a time out... but if it's someone else's kid you don't just stand there, either.

Maybe you need to be more tactical.

Physically, what actions do you take nonverbally?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It took me 6-12 months to process this scene. 

So if it doesn't make sense at first - that's because it is such an odd way of - interacting. 

Let's go back to the bar. He isn't 6, he's just the size of a 6 year old. 

So I'll drill down on that part of the script - as I struggled with it for a long time. What's the 'right' thing to do when a person who can't harm you, is doing their level best to hurt you. 

First of all - it has to suck walking around feeling physically weaker than most folks. 

So in my script I look down and say - hey - just to get his attention. When he looks up I say: Nothing like a cold beer after a tough day, bottle or draft? 

Is that compassion? Yes. Condescension? Nope. Not at all. 

It's primarily the total absence of fear. 

Let's be honest here, we've all had bad days and done foolish sometimes dangerous things. 

All I know is that in my Sim - my small adversary is kind of shocked by my reaction and reflexively responds to my question with: draft

After that it's all over. He's lost the momentum. Accepted my gesture. When I pull back the bar stool he climbs up, and sits down. 

The BEST part is how it feels. 

So with M2 let's break this down. She's doing a real time read - the standard Emopath stuff. And she's looking to bootstrap up off of MY emotions. Wants fear or anger because she NEEDS my fear or anger to amplify her own anger. 

And she LIKES feeling angry because it makes her feel stronger. 

So she WANTS me to feed her aggression. 

But - picture a case where a kid left a toy on the floor and your M2 just tripped on it and went down hard. 

You don't know yet if she's bruised or really hurt. Walk over and crouch down, that expression on your face: blend of concern, love 
The soft voice you use. 

THAT is what I radiate at M2. Concern, love. 

And humor me on this, because it's true. Concern and love have a 100% negative correlation with fear, hurt and anger. 

We humans are wired to self protect first. So it isn't possible for me to be completely focused on you, if my body is screaming at me to protect myself from further injury. 

This 'all about you' theme will overpower a spouse's anger and aggression. 

And ALL of this is based on faith. On my rock solid belief that everything is going to turn out well. That M2's behavior will regress to the mean - happy, playful, loving - and fairly quickly too - provided I don't feed her aggression with my own. 

So the mechanics are easy. 
Facial expression: relaxed, a little bit concerned - because she's upset
Body language: relaxed but focused - I'm oriented directly at her, not jacking with my phone or iPad or a newspaper or book - my hands are empty

If she tripped and fell on the floor I'd offer to bring her a drink. How is this different? Truth is, she's tripped on some emotional obstacle and now she's hurt, afraid, and trying to compensate for that by getting angry. 

My guess - half the guys reading this are thinking: what a doormat

Doesn't bother me at all. I KNOW what's true. I'm the medic. 




marduk said:


> This isn't computing for me.
> 
> I get the whole "don't be threatened by your wife" deal. Trust me. I'm a black belt there.
> 
> ...


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ok, I'll give it a go. 

But roughly analogous responses have yeilded a response equivalent to "you're not validating me."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MRR (Sep 14, 2015)

I have read the book and frankly it is full of platitudes and over-generalizations. The quote discussed here characterizes one of the (many) reasons I am divorced. 

Instead of treating her like a person who should be able to deal with simple issues/discussions, I stood there 'like a man' and basically treated her like a child. In the end it caused resentment in me and showed her that I was WEAK for allowing her to act that way and not ever actually doing anything about it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a sincere question. I'm not poking at you. 

Can you give a couple examples of what you were doing / saying just prior to your M2 making that statement? 

Because MY M2 used to say that to me. 




marduk said:


> Ok, I'll give it a go.
> 
> But roughly analogous responses have yeilded a response equivalent to "you're not validating me."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> This is a sincere question. I'm not poking at you.
> 
> Can you give a couple examples of what you were doing / saying just prior to your M2 making that statement?
> 
> Because MY M2 used to say that to me.


Standing, neutral look on my face, open stance, looking her in the eyes and saying "I understand you are angry. What do you need right now?"

Yeilded: "A divorce!"

Sitting with the kids over dinner, keeping them settled, and just pretending she didn't say what she just said.

Yeilded: "I'm leaving, good thing I'm working now so I won't need you when we're apart!" (out the door she goes for a random period of time).

Two examples, both in the past six months.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,

If you are willing, can you rewind the tape. Start at the beginning of the conflict. 






marduk said:


> Standing, neutral look on my face, open stance, looking her in the eyes and saying "I understand you are angry. What do you need right now?"
> 
> Yeilded: "A divorce!"
> 
> ...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Geez. You guys have some crazy women.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

GusPolinski said:


> Geez. You guys have some crazy women.


You're just jealous.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

marduk said:


> You're just jealous.


LOL. Totally.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. Totally.


Only because you know what crazy means.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hi!

I have two questions:

Do you ever have thoughts along the lines of: Geez this isn't fair. I didn't do anything wrong to her, and it isn't fair I'm being treated like this.

If the sexes were reversed and this was a MAN having emotional storms for the very same reasons, do you think his partner should accept them, as you do for your female partners?

Livvie

Edited to add: I ask because I am in this kind of dynamic with an emotionally damaged man who has emotional storms. It feels completely unnatural to me to accept this and be the "leader" taking his abuse.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Hi!
> ...


My definition is: extreme ongoing drama about everything... withholding of affection and commitment because I state I don't wish to be treated like that when I have done NOTHING wrong. Emotionally storming at me, but unable to handle garden variety annoyance from me...


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> Standing, neutral look on my face, open stance, looking her in the eyes and saying "I understand you are angry. What do you need right now?"
> 
> Yeilded: "A divorce!"
> 
> ...


Is this normal for you and your wife? I thought you were getting along pretty well for some reason.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Livvie,

Totally fair question. 

Can only answer for myself here. 

Of all my hours spent with M2, less than 1% are spent in conflict. Even when we were in high conflict mode, it was at most a 5% thing. 

*The rest of the time she is an upbeat, fun, playful, adventurous, spirited companion. *

If the price of all that is - she's a bit more volatile than your average human, fine by me. 

I'm trying to convey the idea that if you handle that volatility a certain way - it becomes much less frequent and when it does happen, much milder experience. 







Livvie said:


> Hi!
> 
> I have two questions:
> 
> ...


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Livvie,
> 
> Totally fair question.
> 
> ...


Hi, 

Thank you for your reply.

I'm thinking it really does matter how often storms happen, and what the rest of the relationship is like!

In fact, it may be the most important factor...

Livvie


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## ExiledBayStater (Feb 16, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Hi!
> 
> 
> Edited to add: I ask because I am in this kind of dynamic with an emotionally damaged man who has emotional storms. It feels completely unnatural to me to accept this and be the "leader" taking his abuse.


I've been guilty of this more than I care to admit with my wife in years past. It did become less frequent over time, enough so that my wife has been willing to stay with me. 

I thought I would act out under stress because the external circumstances drained energy I might have otherwise used for self-control.

Wrong. I was acting out because I found it comforting to do so. I was utterly repulsed with myself when I realized that.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Anyway - the image of a guy standing there getting hammered by his angry wife - that image screamed 'doormat'. Especially when he hadn't done anything to provoke this outburst.
> 
> So then I edited the scene. The new scene is in a bar. There's me and my opponent. Except I now 'virtualize' my opponent by mapping marital power differences to his size.
> 
> ...


MEM, I think you are missing an important step. "Unaffected" means a lot of different things, and if you truly can't be hurt, then you truly don't care. This kind of indifference is absolutely not the solution when what your spouse is seeking is validation. 

Indifference is like stonewalling, it is what leads to complaints of being "like talking to a brick wall", "not listening", "not validating". 

"Pure curiosity" isn't quite right either. Being treated like a smear on a microscope is not exactly validating. 

What's missing is the emphasis on the respect and compassion, the love. It isn't "pure curiosity," a purely academic puzzle that has nothing to do with you; you do care. You aren't completely unaffected; you can be hurt.

But she already *is* hurt, and that is the more immediate problem. And part of her hurt isn't just about you being "strong" for her; it is about her trusting that you do care, that you love her as she is, that you see her, and even that you are vulnerable to her.

You characterized the poor dynamic as anger feeding anger, but I see it differently. It is two egos battling for validation and recognition. Your anger response is (was) the same thing as hers, your need to have your side of the story seen and validated. Your need to *not* being taken advantage of. Your ego protecting itself. 

But, to annoy you with some indecipherable Zen-like phrases, the ego is an illusion, and you don't need to protect it. Indeed, the less you need to protect your ego, to assert *your* side, the less she feels the need to stand her ground on her side. The more you validate her, the less she needs to fight you for validation.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always, 

Yeah yeah - so much for metaphors

Ok - fvck me - it isn't pure curiousity. At least - it's the absence of fear. That much I know is true.  

Take a guy - put him in a room with a woman he loves. Remove fear from him (by whatever means works). Put her in a state of distress. 

You do that - and now his protection circuits kick in. He is now in 'all about her mode'. The real question at this point is whether he knows how to best help her. 

This type situation - I might ask if there is anything I can do to help. 





always_alone said:


> MEM, I think you are missing an important step. "Unaffected" means a lot of different things, and if you truly can't be hurt, then you truly don't care. This kind of indifference is absolutely not the solution when what your spouse is seeking is validation.
> 
> Indifference is like stonewalling, it is what leads to complaints of being "like talking to a brick wall", "not listening", "not validating".
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ExiledBayStater said:


> Wrong. I was acting out because I found it comforting to do so. I was utterly repulsed with myself when I realized that.


What made you realize it, Exiled? And (if you know), what made it comforting to do so?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,

It's like you were in the bedroom with us tonight. 

She started a new job this week. So far she is disappointed and also sad because she left behind some good friends where she used to work. 

She was apologizing for being bltchy. To quote her 'and super bltchy on Tuesday' (her second day at the new gig). 

It was a moment of clarity for me. The thing is she WASNT bltchy. She was simply distressed. The truth is that back when I was in a high stress job and she was a SAHM, I was unkind and impatient and unsupportive in those situations. Nicest adjectives I can use for it. 

So tonight I just said what is true. 

You are a happy and delightful person most of the time. You're allowed to feel sad, angry, anxious now and then. That's normal. 

We had no conflict this week. None. I just did that thing Marduk will learn how to do. 

Used to be - when M2 felt bad - I felt bad for me. Not always - but often. 





always_alone said:


> MEM, I think you are missing an important step. "Unaffected" means a lot of different things, and if you truly can't be hurt, then you truly don't care. This kind of indifference is absolutely not the solution when what your spouse is seeking is validation.
> 
> Indifference is like stonewalling, it is what leads to complaints of being "like talking to a brick wall", "not listening", "not validating".
> 
> ...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

always_alone said:


> MEM11363 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway - the image of a guy standing there getting hammered by his angry wife - that image screamed 'doormat'. Especially when he hadn't done anything to provoke this outburst.
> ...


I'm not trying to be difficult here, but, where is the respect, compassion, and love when you unleash on your partner in circumstances when they have done nothing wrong to you (meaning, it is not a natural consequence of something negative they did to you)?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> We had no conflict this week. None. I just did that thing Marduk will learn how to do.


I see what you did there...





Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Depending on your definition of "storm," I do it a bit. As long as I am secure in the knowledge that my husband isnot physical (which immediately destroys the playing field) the concept is the same.


Me too. I think we all have our storms, days where we are frustrated, disappointed, anxious, irritated, what have you. Sometimes you (one) just needs a hug, consolation, soothing, or even just space to decompress. We're human. We live together. We need to weather each other's storms.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to be difficult here, but, where is the respect, compassion, and love when you unleash on your partner in circumstances when they have done nothing wrong to you (meaning, it is not a natural consequence of something negative they did to you)?


It isn't respect or compassion that causes the storms --it is just how we weather them, and help the other through.

That said, depending on how stormy things were, I would have my limits. No fair just using someone as a personal whipping post, and no expectation that anyone should simply allow themselves to be used that way.

Sometimes, you (one) just needs to vent. But if all a person is doing is venting, it's definitely time to look for deeper causes and better coping mechanisms.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

always_alone said:


> It isn't respect or compassion that causes the storms --it is just how we weather them, and help the other through.
> 
> That said, depending on how stormy things were, I would have my limits. No fair just using someone as a personal whipping post, and no expectation that anyone should simply allow themselves to be used that way.
> 
> Sometimes, you (one) just needs to vent. But if all a person is doing is venting, it's definitely time to look for deeper causes and better coping mechanisms.


good post AA. This is a 'sane' way to look at it. The phrase in the OP is without any bounds to being reasonable.


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## ExiledBayStater (Feb 16, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> What made you realize it, Exiled? And (if you know), what made it comforting to do so?


I caught myself choosing to argue even when I knew in my head that leaving the house and getting some air would have been more satisfying. Not only that, but my wife wasn't arguing back, so I was basically harassing her.

I know next to nothing about neurochemistry, but I think being angry or verbalizing anger released some neurotransmitter that I had become accustomed to.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> MEM, I think you are missing an important step. "Unaffected" means a lot of different things, and if you truly can't be hurt, then you truly don't care. This kind of indifference is absolutely not the solution when what your spouse is seeking is validation.
> 
> Indifference is like stonewalling, it is what leads to complaints of being "like talking to a brick wall", "not listening", "not validating".
> 
> ...


What a beautifully insightful post.... but you do that alot Always alone ! 

I've always felt.. if I was incapable of hurting my husband... something is terribly amiss... I would find no satisfaction in this..(does that sound bad!!)...it's not that I want to inflict pain but I need something to work with.. I need a man with EMOTIONS to deal with.. (I can be volatile too in a heated moment).. 

Also it compels us to "get a hold of ourselves"...when we see with our own eyes that WE are hurting him too, bringing him to sadness.. this inevitably leads us to "making up".. finding our peace again.. but still I need his EMOTION, his feelings too.. calmer than my own SURE helps though! 

Many people have the wrong assumptions about a volitate conflict style.. .. what Relationship Expect Gottman has to say ...


> 1.* Volatile Couples*
> 
> For volatile couples, conflicts erupt easily, and are fought on grand scale, but of course, making up is even greater! These couples have passionate disputes, and frequent and passionate arguments.
> 
> ...


It says "Gottman’s research indicates that their frequent arguments are balanced out by their positive interactions such as touching, smiling, paying complements, and laughing, and so on. So these couples stick together for the long haul". 

He speaks to a *5 to 1 ratio*.....saying "negative interactions are balanced by positive ones in stable marriages. The dynamics of the balance between negativity and positivity are what separate contented couples from discontented ones.... 

And what you said below falls into this... the less than 1% in conflict.. up to 5%.. sounds pretty healthy to me. 


> *MEM11363 said*: *Of all my hours spent with M2, less than 1% are spent in conflict. Even when we were in high conflict mode, it was at most a 5% thing. *
> 
> The rest of the time she is an upbeat, fun, playful, adventurous, spirited companion.
> 
> ...


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

technovelist said:


> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"


I don't think I would call it the deepest feminine pleasure, but I totally get this.

I grew up in an abusive home, where expressing a negative emotion at the wrong time could easily lead to my mother threatening to abandon me or kill herself. I learned to bottle up my emotions, and even as an adult, sometimes I don't process strong emotion very well. I know it's a problem, and I'm working on it.

Sometimes it becomes too much, the bottle bursts, and I melt down over something. I don't scream, I don't call anyone names, but I cry a lot (which is otherwise rare for me) and verbally unload all the pain floating around in my head.

My XH did not handle this well. He expected me to be his rock, and he didn't really know how to do that for me. So when I was very upset, he would get frightened, angry, anxious. He would blame me for those feelings and want me to fix them. So I would have to swallow my tears, comfort him, and apologize for upsetting him by being upset.

This slowly broke my trust in him. I didn't feel safe letting go and working through my pain with him, because he taught me that was bad and mean and hurtful. He couldn't be strong for me, so I kept it to myself. I wished so much that he could be strong for me when I needed it, but he just couldn't do it. He took my emotions very personally, even when they weren't directed at him. So I learned not to share them. But that's no way to work a marriage.

A spouse shouldn't take verbal and emotional abuse. But we are human, and sometimes we are weak and need the people we love to be strong, because in that moment we can't be strong ourselves.


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## ExiledBayStater (Feb 16, 2013)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Sometimes it becomes too much, the bottle bursts, and I melt down over something. I don't scream, I don't call anyone names, but I cry a lot (which is otherwise rare for me) and verbally unload all the pain floating around in my head.


Crying is not what I have in mind reading the statement being discussed. To me that evokes images of yelling and cursing. 

If my wife is yelling at me, I'll go to Home Depot or the supermarket. Then I'll come back later bearing food or home improvement supplies and apologize for whatever I did to make her yell at me. By giving her space and buying things that benefit our home, I have a winning combination.

If she's crying, I'll hold her and tell her it's okay to cry.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Ha, I'm not talking about sad, weepy crying. When I get too mad or frustrated, I don't raise my voice... I cry. That's my angry emotional storm.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

always_alone said:


> MEM, I think you are missing an important step. "Unaffected" means a lot of different things, and if you truly can't be hurt, then you truly don't care. This kind of indifference is absolutely not the solution when what your spouse is seeking is validation.


Not being hurt or being unaffected by my wife's words does not mean I do not care. It may be true for some others, but I do not feel that way.

When my wife gets angry at me, what she says does not hurt me. But it signals me that I better listen because something is not right.

Men who do not care for sure do not feel hurt by their wives. But the other way around is not necessarily true.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> Not being hurt or being unaffected by my wife's words does not mean I do not care. It may be true for some others, but I do not feel that way.
> 
> When my wife gets angry at me, what she says does not hurt me. But it signals me that I better listen because something is not right.
> 
> Men who do not care for sure do not feel hurt by their wives. But the other way around is not necessarily true.


Agreed. I wasn't trying to suggest that "unaffected" or "can't hurt me" necessarily means one is stone cold or doesn't care. Just that it *can* mean that, or be interpreted that way, and it's extremely important to factor in the respect and love aspect, particularly when advising people to adopt these approaches and behaviours.

JLD loves and respects you so deeply, it is almost beyond belief. You *know* this; it is the base you operate from, and this is how you know that she can't hurt you. No wait, let me rephrase, she *won't* hurt you. 

Not everyone is operating from that base of love and respect, and so they don't have, can't have, the same assurance you do. And without that base, people can do a lot of damage to each other.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Agreed. I wasn't trying to suggest that "unaffected" or "can't hurt me" necessarily means one is stone cold or doesn't care. Just that it *can* mean that, or be interpreted that way, and it's extremely important to factor in the respect and love aspect, particularly when advising people to adopt these approaches and behaviours.
> 
> JLD loves and respects you so deeply, it is almost beyond belief. You *know* this; it is the base you operate from, and this is how you know that she can't hurt you. No wait, let me rephrase, she *won't* hurt you.
> 
> Not everyone is operating from that base of love and respect, and so they don't have, can't have, the same assurance you do. And without that base, people can do a lot of damage to each other.


AA I have been thinking about this today and I just do not believe that JLD can hurt me, short of her pulling a gun or a knife on me.

And when you say that not everyone is operating from a base of love and respect, why is that? Wouldn't it be simpler for men to respect women from the get go, and approach them from a place of love?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> AA I have been thinking about this today and I just do not believe that JLD can hurt me, short of her pulling a gun or a knife on me.
> 
> And when you say that not everyone is operating from a base of love and respect, why is that? Wouldn't it be simpler for men to respect women from the get go, and approach them from a place of love?


Of course she can hurt you. All she has to do is call 911 and say "I'm afraid of my husband".

And as for the second point whether it wouldn't be "simpler for men to respect women from the get go", yes, it would be simpler. But many men on this board can testify that it is very hazardous to give unearned respect to women, given that women have so much legal power in this society.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

technovelist said:


> Of course she can hurt you. All she has to do is call 911 and say "I'm afraid of my husband".
> 
> And as for the second point whether it wouldn't be "simpler for men to respect women from the get go", yes, it would be simpler. But many men on this board can testify that it is very hazardous to give unearned respect to women, given that women have so much legal power in this society.


Women just wake up one day and say: "Oh I will call 911 on my husband and take him to the cleaners"?

I have heard of those stories but I do not personally know anyone that went through it. On the one I know when 911 was called, there were very good reasons.

If women can be that evil, don't you think men can be as well?

If women have so much legal power, how come so many lawmakers are men?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Women just wake up one day and say: "Oh I will call 911 on my husband and take him to the cleaners"?


Yes, that happens.



Duguesclin said:


> I have heard of those stories but I do not personally know anyone that went through it. On the one I know when 911 was called, there were very good reasons.
> 
> If women can be that evil, don't you think men can be as well?
> 
> If women have so much legal power, how come so many lawmakers are men?


This is called the "apex fallacy". The fact that lawmakers are men does not mean that all men make the laws. A very, very tiny fraction of all men (and some women) make the laws, and all the other men and women are subject to them.

Since women make up more than 50% of the electorate, it is nearly impossible to be elected to office without pleasing women. And because women in general tend to support things they think will benefit *women *in general, whereas men in general tend to support things they think will benefit *people *in general, there is a nearly irresistible force toward continually increasing legal benefits for women at the expense of men.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

technovelist said:


> *Of course she can hurt you. All she has to do is call 911 and say "I'm afraid of my husband".*


I'm thinking more along the lines of emotional betrayal... issues of the heart.. 

Before it ever reaches the legal/ financial risks ... every downfall starts with "Emotional pain" that snowballs...communication takes a hit.. affection slows down...we no longer are loving & cherishing.... 

Hurting someone we love >> I think of the feeling of devastation, learning of a betrayal for instance... not knives to cut us.. but slash our hearts, what we trusted, and thought was REAL.... 

I know if I ever stepped out & cheated on my husband, he'd feel like this >>







...not to mention ANGRY...soul wrenching pain.....everything would feel like a LIE.....he'd never look at me the same...something would be forever lost... but he's a sensitive guy like that.. (but that's good!) as he'd be ever so sensitive to not do that to me either! 

When I read these threads in the sex section that the husband has some fantasy he'd like to live out - to see his wife with another man.. My husband would throw up on that.. he would say such a man does not love his wife, he couldn't !... though such men would argue that they do.. 

It's not something we understand.. as we both acknowledge we CAN hurt each other...of course.. 

Even though I feel we have that "base" that Always alone spoke of in her post..... this is why we're able to engage in raw transparency so easily ...at the same time....we acknowledge human weaknesses, bad moments... but there is still a line you just don't cross.. anything above it is Easy ... is not a threat... 

But still...we could....so the potential for hurt is always there.. to Love is to risk...


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

technovelist said:


> Yes, that happens.


But it is the exception. I look around me and I cannot find one example of the court siding unfairly with a woman.

Real life example: When my wife and I were first together, I had a coworker the same age as me who confided that he felt depressed because he had no girlfriend. At 26 he felt he should have been long married. I told him he had plenty of time but he did not agree.

This was before the internet, so he looked for a girlfriend in the classified. He quickly found one and was very happy because she was hot. He also quickly realized that she was crazy but she was still hot. Anyway he got her pregnant although she was not fully divorced yet and he knew that she had great difficulties to take care of her 2 year old kid.

They were fighting constantly but he still married her 2 days before the baby was born. Part of the reason was health insurance. But, although he did not say it, he also wanted to make sure he was part of the life of his son.

6 month later they were divorced and he gained full custody of the little boy. The court could see that his wife was nuts. 

That example reinforced to me that when men think with their d!ck, not much good comes out; that when men use their brain they can be very decent (My coworker really took great care of his kid. When I saw him last, the boy was about 15 and had good grades and was a hard worker);and that the legal system is not that bad.

Like I said earlier, I have not personally seen any example of the legal system taking advantage of men. I have seen a lot of bitter guys who think they have been taken advantage of. But looking at their situation in detail, I was always less than impressed on how they dealt with their ex-wives.

On the other hand I can list many example of women totally taken advantage by men. I am glad there is a legal system that can protect them.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm thinking more along the lines of emotional betrayal... issues of the heart..
> 
> Before it ever reaches the legal/ financial risks ... every downfall starts with "Emotional pain" that snowballs...communication takes a hit.. affection slows down...we no longer are loving & cherishing....
> 
> ...


SA, let me clarify what I mean with the word hurt. As an avid cyclist, I will use an example in that sport.

When I go on a ride with my 13 year son, we try to ride fast. I am still stronger (not for long though :frown2 than he is on flat ground, so he stays in my draft. However, when a hill comes up, my weight is not an advantage (I am almost twice as heavy as he is). So not only are my thighs burning as I climb that hill, but I am totally disgusted to see him passing me like he is making no efforts. It is depressing! 

I go over the hill and then catch up with him.

However, I would consider this "hurt" as part of the deal of riding a bike. It is normal and actually very healthy. It makes me stronger.

It is the same with JLD. I am not seeking hurtful words from her. But if they happen, it is OK. It is not the end of the world. We will fix the issue, move on and get stronger in the process.

Like I do not need my son to apologise to make me feel bad when he passes me on the hill, I do not need JLD to refrain from being angry at me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> But it is the exception. I look around me and I cannot find one example of the court siding unfairly with a woman.


Try this site, which has plenty of examples: Real World Divorce: Custody, Child Support, and Alimony in the 50 States

You're welcome.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Duguesclin said:


> SA, let me clarify what I mean with the word hurt. As an avid cyclist, I will use an example in that sport.
> 
> When I go on a ride with my 13 year son, we try to ride fast. I am still stronger (not for long though :frown2 than he is on flat ground, so he stays in my draft. However, when a hill comes up, my weight is not an advantage (I am almost twice as heavy as he is). So not only are my thighs burning as I climb that hill, but I am totally disgusted to see him passing me like he is making no efforts. It is depressing!
> 
> ...


By the way.. my husband would agree 100% with this... it's NOT the end of the world -when we have a spat.. conflict.. a fight.. whatever one wants to call it.. even if it's "volatile" which I have laid out... as relationship experts also attest this in no way = a destructive dynamic.. But yeah... it shouldn't be happening like every day, every week... 

When long stretches of time are in between.. *it's perfectly normal*.

You said "I do not need JLD to refrain"... but what about the apolgizing afterwards if she was out of line & it stung?? (Or maybe nothing she says can sting you?) 

I DO apologize when I say something in mindless anger to my husband ... been there, done that ... Heck he's even told me that he knows I didn't mean what I said... that it's the frustration speaking... 

I wouldn't feel right to NOT apologize -even if he can handle it.. this doesn't matter to me.. I have a NEED to humble myself and make genuine amends.. so there is no misunderstandings, or any seeds of questioning remaining.... 

Your wife started this thread >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/303465-humility-marriage.html... was really hoping more would jump in on that one!


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Duguesclin said:


> But it is the exception. I look around me and I cannot find one example of the court siding unfairly with a woman.
> 
> Real life example: When my wife and I were first together, I had a coworker the same age as me who confided that he felt depressed because he had no girlfriend. At 26 he felt he should have been long married. I told him he had plenty of time but he did not agree.
> 
> ...


I'm glad that's been your experience. I know mine hasn't been such. I've known a lot of folks who've gone through the big D and seen the courts just roll over the man, simply because he's a guy. I'd like to believe you're right and it's the exception though.

It's anecdotal, but I've got a friend going though it right now. He's going to end up with full custody, but they've given his wife every chance possible. His wife hasn't shown up for several court hearings, no representation, but the judge has just rescheduled, without her even having a motion for it. When she has shown, she's never appeared sober or coherent. Judge just gave her a new court date every time. Took over 4 years of this, and he didn't get primary custody until this year. It's finally ending now. But it's never over. She calls CPS regularly, making claims the kids are being abused, not fed, live in filth. They check in, find nothing, move on. Last time it was over the "unclean house". CPS worker said it was the cleanest house she's ever been in. 

When my parents divorced, 2 court-appointed psychologists declared my mother and her immediate family insane, psychologically abusive and said that my sister and I were better off with our dad. Even the GAL agreed. Judge just said "Well, I believe children belong with their mother, not their father." Gave my dad visitations every other weekend. My mother and her family sold all their cars and bought new ones one weekend, kidnapped us, ran several states away, and my dad spent a lot of money bringing us back--private detectives are awesome, btw. It got him 50/50 custody (3 days a week). If he'd been declared "psychologically abusive" or took us and run, he'd have never seen us again. 

I've seen personally, how terrible the system is, when my mother's niece assaulted my dad at a school function, and called the cops and had him arrested. She walked up and hit him while he was getting a drink from a water fountain, he tried to back away. Didn't matter, her word over his. I've had this pulled on me too. It's paralyzing for most folks.

That's my experience with the US divorce / civil court system. But I'd like to believe it's not usually that way. I hope you're right.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Not to pick on you Dug, but your experience is highly unlikely in the US today. Things are changing, but right now the preponderance of evidence supports the theory that the D system in the US is stacked against men. Not every time, but way more often than not.

And usually the cases that end up in the favor of the man, typically the W was either very obviously bonkers and/or the man had a pile of money available to spend on the D. A poor man's likelihood of success is much less.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Kivlor said:


> I'm glad that's been your experience. I know mine hasn't been such. I've known a lot of folks who've gone through the big D and seen the courts just roll over the man, simply because he's a guy. I'd like to believe you're right and it's the exception though.
> 
> It's anecdotal, but I've got a friend going though it right now. He's going to end up with full custody, but they've given his wife every chance possible. His wife hasn't shown up for several court hearings, no representation, but the judge has just rescheduled, without her even having a motion for it. When she has shown, she's never appeared sober or coherent. Judge just gave her a new court date every time. Took over 4 years of this, and he didn't get primary custody until this year. It's finally ending now. But it's never over. She calls CPS regularly, making claims the kids are being abused, not fed, live in filth. They check in, find nothing, move on. Last time it was over the "unclean house". CPS worker said it was the cleanest house she's ever been in.
> 
> ...


I am sorry you had to go through it and that your friend has to go through it now. There is no doubt in my mind those situations are happening. I simply do not believe they are the rule.

What I do believe is that when a divorce does not go smoothly, a lot of resentment builds on both sides. Things can get very nasty. And when a judge has to make a choice for the kids, I would find it normal that he/she sides with the mother.

I am afraid a lot of the 911 examples come from those types of situations. It is so bitter that one side will be upset regardless.

Now you are going to argue why should the default be the mother. My argument is that she has birthed those kids and she has naturally a leg over a man when it comes to a custody battle.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> By the way.. my husband would agree 100% with this... it's NOT the end of the world -when we have a spat.. conflict.. a fight.. whatever one wants to call it.. even if it's "volatile" which I have laid out... as relationship experts also attest this in no way = a destructive dynamic.. But yeah... it shouldn't be happening like every day, every week...
> 
> When long stretches of time are in between.. *it's perfectly normal*.
> 
> ...


JLD does apologize all the time. She even apologizes for things that I did not even notice. And like your husband I know she does not mean what she says when she is angry.

Conflict and its subsequent resolution is an essential part of a healthy relationship. JLD is a great communicator and I have learned a great deal from her.

Humility is an essential trait but often quickly set aside for fear of looking weak and being taken advantage of.

JLD is very humble, and more important, she has been able to instill this in our kids. I feel very blessed.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> It is the same with JLD. I am not seeking hurtful words from her. But if they happen, it is OK. It is not the end of the world. We will fix the issue, move on and get stronger in the process.
> 
> Like I do not need my son to apologise to make me feel bad when he passes me on the hill, I do not need JLD to refrain from being angry at me.


This is exactly what I meant, when I mentioned a base of love and respect. You *know* jld loves and respects you, and that you *will* fix the issue. Not everyone comes from that same place.,

Would it be simpler if they did? Perhaps. But it's still not a luxury that we all can have faith in. Oftentimes people are a whole lot less committed and invested, or as accepting and willing to face challenges as you and jld are. Lots of people have insecurities, and some of those are pretty well-founded. And lots of people are still seeking basic ego validation.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Duguesclin said:


> *JLD does apologize all the time. She even apologizes for things that I did not even notice*. And like your husband I know she does not mean what she says when she is angry.


I could easily see this ! 



> Conflict and its subsequent resolution is an essential part of a healthy relationship. *JLD is a great communicator and I have learned a great deal from her*.


 THAT she most definitely IS! She has a tender conscience...which is a beautiful thing... She likes to get to the roots of an issue! Some men may find that draining.. it's a blessing (to her) that you feel as you do, you admire it even...

I am much like your wife in this .. I will intellectually dig till I understand where we are, how we got there, how we can find peace with each other...to genuine resolution where it's "washed in the ocean" so I like to say....

It is IN this deep sharing that I find "healing" ...bonding.... For women like us... we need the type of men who can appreciate these qualities ...or we would not feel loved ... I am sure JLD would agree with this! 



> *Humility is an essential trait but often quickly set aside for fear of looking weak and being taken advantage of.
> 
> JLD is very humble, and more important, she has been able to instill this in our kids. I feel very blessed*.


 Not enough is spoken about Humility in marriages.. . so true !


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Just recently, in Australia, a woman called the police on her partner after he punched her face, breaking her nose and a front tooth. He says she fell over. Police say, okay, your word against hers and tell her there's nothing they can do about it. Case closed.

So when people try to say women have all this power because they are women, I have to wonder what f*cking planet they are living on.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I could easily see this !
> 
> THAT she most definitely IS! She has a tender conscience...which is a beautiful thing... She likes to get to the roots of an issue! Some men may find that draining.. it's a blessing (to her) that you feel as you do, you admire it even...
> 
> ...


Gosh, that was really nice, SA. Thank you so much! 

One thing I love about talking to you is that I feel we can open our hearts to each other and talk things out. Even if we often do not agree! 

But that is okay, because the point was not necessarily to agree, anyway. It was just to be as honest as we could be, like you said, to get down to the "roots" of the issue. We can learn so much just from being as honest as possible with each other.

I think one thing that scares people about humility is that they think it means giving up their power to have an opinion. I do not see it that way. To me, being humble just means being deeply honest, perhaps especially with oneself. 

I was hoping that thread on humility would take off, too. If there is any place we ought to be able to lay down our defenses and just completely open our hearts, it is in our marriages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Duguesclin said:


> I am sorry you had to go through it and that your friend has to go through it now. There is no doubt in my mind those situations are happening. I simply do not believe they are the rule.
> 
> What I do believe is that when a divorce does not go smoothly, a lot of resentment builds on both sides. Things can get very nasty. And when a judge has to make a choice for the kids, I would find it normal that he/she sides with the mother.
> 
> ...


Like I said, my evidence is anecdotal. I live by my experiences though, and it's not like I only view women as dangerous, everyone is. I could fill books with more, and worse ones than those. 

I agree that many 911 cases come from very bitter situations, but I tend to think most divorces are bitter, so I have no issue thinking it happens often. A lot of attorneys recommend it as a first shot. File for a TRO claiming "I'm afraid" which ends with the H out of the house. He's not allowed to take his checkbook, so he's homeless, and has 10 days to respond. When he shows up, the court will say he's unfit to raise the kids because he doesn't have a house. W has had them the last 10 days, so she's officially the sole caretaker now. He lost before it began. 

But it happens a lot outside of divorce too. Many women think it is okay to strike their boyfriend, or husband, and that he cannot do anything back; and she'd call the cops if he did. Many men are too frightened of the repercussions to defend themselves--which, to an extent is on them. I've dated many women who thought they could take a swing if they were upset at me--not playfully, rough play is just play. I've known a lot of guys who've dated, or even found themselves married to women like this. Many don't know what to do. If they defend themselves they'll go to jail, if they call the cops, they're more likely to be arrested than her--predominant aggressor doctrines. If they call a DV hotline, or seek a shelter they are told to "man up", "control their W / GF better" or even told that it's their fault, and they're the abuser. They don't dare go to family or friends, for fear of appearing weak, so they suffer, silently. 

I don't think it's all that uncommon to see women pull this. But, like I said, maybe I'm just projecting my experiences and those of my family and friends.

As for the whole mothers should be the default, I typed a lengthy, and well-reasoned argument, but then I realized that this isn't an issue of reason, it's emotional to you, and will be to most people here. I think in the interest of not derailing this further, not riling up the everyone else, and not getting myself banned, we should agree to disagree on that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kivlor,
The system has changed a lot over the past 50 years. 

Sometimes systemic change creates an 'over' correction. 

That said, if I compare today to 1965 - I like the new world even with all its flaws a LOT better. 

It is true that, as the larger gender men need to be very careful when a woman gets physical with them. 

As far as courts - everyone has a story. I have a family member who's ex husband best her up. The family court judge said, and I quote: 'I do NOT like it when wives file complaints that put their husbands in jail'.

So her attorney told her, that this judge would screw her over in the divorce if she pressed charges for assault. 

That was in 1985. Likely a much rarer type thing these days. 






Kivlor said:


> Like I said, my evidence is anecdotal. I live by my experiences though, and it's not like I only view women as dangerous, everyone is. I could fill books with more, and worse ones than those.
> 
> I agree that many 911 cases come from very bitter situations, but I tend to think most divorces are bitter, so I have no issue thinking it happens often. A lot of attorneys recommend it as a first shot. File for a TRO claiming "I'm afraid" which ends with the H out of the house. He's not allowed to take his checkbook, so he's homeless, and has 10 days to respond. When he shows up, the court will say he's unfit to raise the kids because he doesn't have a house. W has had them the last 10 days, so she's officially the sole caretaker now. He lost before it began.
> 
> ...


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

The system can be tricky for both sides. My friend's abusive ex husband was mad that she remarried, so he threatened to kill her and take their kids. It was a verbal threat, she has no proof. So she stopped his visitation with the kids because she was afraid he'd take off with them.

He took her to court, and the judge scolded her, accused her of over reacting, told her to give visitation back, and recommended her ex file for more visits with the kids. This judge is well known for always siding with the father.

The system in most states is set up to favor neither parent over the other. But individual judges often rule according to their own personal biases.


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