# Joint bank accounts & trust issues



## Skeptical1 (Jul 28, 2016)

When we got married, my wife and I set up a single, joint bank account into which all our money goes. There are no individual accounts. Years later, I’ve discovered she has withdrawn thousands of dollars from this joint bank account, and deposited it into an interest bearing deposit in her own name only. She didn’t tell me about this. When I asked her for an explanation, she told me she did it to earn higher interest, and that she put it solely in her name so she wouldn’t have to go to the trouble of getting my signature. We’ve taken out a number of such investments before, always in joint names. On no previous occasion have we done so without consulting.

Additionally, we had a simple arrangement for many years, ever since we were first married. Whomever gets home first collects the mail and opens it, no matter to whom it is addressed – my wife, myself, or both. This is not a formal arrangement, it is just the way it has been done. Again, after many years, my wife one day announced that she doesn’t want me to open her mail any more – and of course, she won’t open mine. Privacy, she says. I thought this odd, but didn’t make a fuss, and dutifully obeyed. My wife, however, on a number of occasions since has “accidentally” opened my mail. 

I’m thinking that there is something going on here that I need to me concerned about. Do you agree, or am I being needlessly suspicious?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I think you have a right to be concerned. You don't monitor your bank account at all that you didn't notice thousands of dollars being withdrawn?

How is everything else in your marriage, any other possible red flags?

Also, tell your wife she needs to add you to that investment account where the money was deposited. See what her reaction is to that.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Skeptical1 said:


> When we got married, my wife and I set up a single, joint bank account into which all our money goes. There are no individual accounts. Years later, I’ve discovered she has withdrawn thousands of dollars from this joint bank account, and deposited it into an interest bearing deposit in her own name only. She didn’t tell me about this. When I asked her for an explanation, she told me she did it to earn higher interest, and that she put it solely in her name so she wouldn’t have to go to the trouble of getting my signature. We’ve taken out a number of such investments before, always in joint names. On no previous occasion have we done so without consulting.
> 
> Additionally, we had a simple arrangement for many years, ever since we were first married. Whomever gets home first collects the mail and opens it, no matter to whom it is addressed – my wife, myself, or both. This is not a formal arrangement, it is just the way it has been done. Again, after many years, my wife one day announced that she doesn’t want me to open her mail any more – and of course, she won’t open mine. Privacy, she says. I thought this odd, but didn’t make a fuss, and dutifully obeyed. My wife, however, on a number of occasions since has “accidentally” opened my mail.
> 
> I’m thinking that there is something going on here that I need to me concerned about. Do you agree, or am I being needlessly suspicious?












I think it is time for you to go into spy mode, friend. Mouth shut, eyes open.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

No, her behavior is odd and in your shoes I would investigate. She broke an agreement about your money and pilfered your joint account. If it was merely to earn a better interest rate she could have easily put your name on the account and brought a signature card home and mailed it back. I have done that countless times in the past. She also could have given you a heads up that she had withdrawn the money and opened a personal account with joint funds...But she didn't, so here you are. The mail thing is another GIANT red flag.

Run a credit report for both of you and place a "fraud alert" on your account with all three agencies so no new credit can be opened without your approval. In your shoes I would make darn sure you get the mail before her, consider having the post office hold it for a bit.


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## Skeptical1 (Jul 28, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I think you have a right to be concerned. You don't monitor your bank account at all that you didn't notice thousands of dollars being withdrawn?
> 
> How is everything else in your marriage, any other possible red flags?
> 
> Also, tell your wife she needs to add you to that investment account where the money was deposited. See what her reaction is to that.


She does the banking and bill paying, so no, I seldom check. I guess a brief answer to how things are otherwise would be "strained" - no particular problems that I can identify, but we seem to bicker a lot.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

is she going to add you to that account now?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

See if she is happy to go to the bank and add your name to the account.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

How did you do your taxes without knowing of the interest income on this account?


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Skeptical1 said:


> She does the banking and bill paying, so no, I seldom check. I guess a brief answer to how things are otherwise would be "strained" - *no particular problems that I can identify, but we seem to bicker a lot*.












Keep your eyes open. The part I put in bold above is worrisome.



> Run a credit report for both of you and place a "fraud alert" on your account with all three agencies so no new credit can be opened without your approval. In your shoes I would make darn sure you get the mail before her, consider having the post office hold it for a bit.


Do this.


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## Skeptical1 (Jul 28, 2016)

I didn't know of the account, so I didn't know about the interest. Besides which, she handles all the financial stuff, including tax. Maybe not any more!


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Time to get involved in your finances. Offer to give her a couple years off...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It's definitely time to investigate and take an active role in your finances - and check other things to be sure she isn't keeping other things from you. The key question is, what happened to the money in her separate account? Can you find out if she used it for anything? And if so, for what? I'd suggest setting up your own separate account, and moving an equal amount into it. Have your pay direct deposited to that account. If necessary, transfer an appropriate amount to the joint account to cover your half (or share) of the bills. Say nothing about this, and let her come to you, because she WILL notice and WILL ask. You then will have the leverage to get a full accounting of her account, and if there actually is nothing "else" going on, agree to a new set of rules.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Hiding money, hiding accounts, bickering, strained relationship... 

All sorts of red flags. 

Get your signature on that account and quietly start digging.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

uhtred said:


> See if she is happy to go to the bank and add your name to the account.


This is a great first step. If she fights you, you've not only caught her in a deception but you'll know you've got much bigger problems.

If she is trying to build a nest egg of her own, it could be to finance a divorce, affair, whatever. If she refuses to add your name to the account and continues to profess that she now needs financial privacy from you, it would be the time to separate finances entirely. Set up your own accounts at a bank she doesn't use. Tell her you will tranfsfer X dollars into her account per month to cover joint expenses like housing, utilities, kids , etc. 

Don't blow this off. It's not uncommon for men in troubled marriages to greatly underestimate their wife's unhappiness. Most likely, this problem is not really about money at all.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Also, in terms of the whole "not wanting to inconvenience you by getting your signature" BS, do you two not see each other every single day? Would it really have been an inconvenience to get your signature when you were both home 

Also, once the account is opened your signature shouldn't be needed since it is pretty standard to be able to transfer funds between accounts electronically.

Sorry bud, the line she fed you was a load of BS.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

While there are a lot of warning signs, its *possible* that it is completely innocent. I'd suggest that you not be confrontational, assume its innocent, but be very aware that it might not be.


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

When I see threads like this, I have to ask myself, "Why would I squirrel away thousands of dollars and not let my spouse know?" Why do you hide anything from your spouse? Usually because either you are embarrassed about it or you don't want them to find it. 

Just to get higher interest is crap, why would you split your money in different investments when the growth rate would be higher with more money in the higher interest investment? Sure, don't put all your eggs in one basket, but just because she didn't want to get your signature is a stretch.

To answer your question OP, yes I would be concerned based on what you have presented. How you move forward is up to you. But I would recommend more of a stealth approach till you know a little more. Try to get her to add your name to the account and see what happens. While in the mean time, start to pay attention to your joint account and see where the funds are going. I would start planning that she is going to leave you in the future based on what little you have written. Worst thing that happens is you get ready and she does nothing. Don't ignore the signs and your gut instinct or let her blow you off with ridiculous excuses. Your gut is usually right.

I learned my lesson from my first marriage about letting my spouse run all the finances. I will never have only a joint bank account again.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Get all of your banking records going back as many years as you can get and study them.

I've done forensic accounting for several divorces. It is not usually where one spouse handles all the money and eventually starts moving money into their own name. They can do it because no one is paying attention.

In one situation, the wife was going to the grocery store, Target, etc a few times a day. Each time she was spending a minimum of $60. So I had the guy go through her purse, the trash and her receipt pile. It turned out that with each purchase she was pulling out more cash than she was spending on food items. For example she'd buy $10 in groceries and take out $60 cash. Over their 20 year marriage she handled all the finances and was able to move more than $100K that way into her name only. That's what I found. I have no doubt that there was more that I did not find because there was incomplete evidence of more.

In a marriage, both parties need to be involved in all finances. This is why.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Get all of your banking records going back as many years as you can get and study them.
> 
> I've done forensic accounting for several divorces. It is not usually where one spouse handles all the money and eventually starts moving money into their own name. They can do it because no one is paying attention.
> 
> ...


your story blew me away, that is seriously messed up


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Skeptical1 said:


> When we got married, my wife and I set up a single, joint bank account into which all our money goes. There are no individual accounts. *Years later, I’ve discovered she has withdrawn thousands of dollars from this joint bank account, and deposited it into an interest bearing deposit in her own name only. She didn’t tell me about this. When I asked her for an explanation, she told me she did it to earn higher interest, and that she put it solely in her name so she wouldn’t have to go to the trouble of getting my signature. * We’ve taken out a number of such investments before, always in joint names. On no previous occasion have we done so without consulting.


Yes, this is a HUGE red flag. You know it is. Deal with it asap. Freeze any joint accounts with large sums until this is sorted out.

I don't want to even guess the various scenarios this could be foretelling. Just deal with the finance issue asap.

fwiw, my H and I have separate bank and investment accounts. Largely for professional liability reasons in case one of us ever is successfully sued we don't keep our eggs in one basket. We sit down every month and compare where we are and my H keeps track of it all in a spreadsheet. He could access my account, but frankly doesn't bother. I don't open his mail but that's mostly b/c I already know what it is. I leave my investment statements open for him to glance at so he knows where we're at. It's about trust and being trustworthy. Right now, your wife has given you reason to doubt her trustworthiness.

Good luck.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Don't we always tell people, especially women, who want to get a divorce to start putting money away? I've seen people get told that they should always have their OWN money in the event that the marriage dissolves for whatever reason, even when there's nothing wrong in the marriage.

Could be totally innocent, or could be the beginning of the end. I agree that you should start with telling her to go with you to the bank and get your name on that account and see what she does. Notice I said TELLING, not asking.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Are you in a community property state? If not, she may be able to keep all the money she set aside for herself, if you are unable to get your name on the account. If you are, half of that money belongs to you.
It is important to keep track of your money, whether someone else is managing it or not and whether you trust them or not.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Don't we always tell people, especially women, who want to get a divorce to start putting money away? I've seen people get told that they should always have their OWN money in the event that the marriage dissolves for whatever reason, even when there's nothing wrong in the marriage.
> 
> Could be totally innocent, or could be the beginning of the end. I agree that you should start with telling her to go with you to the bank and get your name on that account and see what she does. Notice I said TELLING, not asking.


Yes, we do tell people, especially women who have no source of income and are in a bad situation, to make sure that they put some money aside in their own name.

The issue is why is it done, how it's done and the impact it has on martial financial well being.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CynthiaDe said:


> Are you in a community property state? If not, she may be able to keep all the money she set aside for herself, if you are unable to get your name on the account. If you are, half of that money belongs to you.
> 
> It is important to keep track of your money, whether someone else is managing it or not and whether you trust them or not.


This is true. 

I some states, if the account is in her name, it belongs to her and he has no right to the money. But, in this case, if he can show money moving directly from their joint account into her account, thus proving the origin of the money to be partial assets/income then he can most likely get the court to award him 50% of the money. Paper trails are very important.

With the couple I talked about, they live in California, so it is a community property state. But the way she moved the money was an attempt to have no paper trail. She also had the account hidden and all paperwork went to her parent's home. She was clearly trying to steal money from the marital community. With no paper trail from one account to another, those receipts with the constant cash withdrawals became very important. It proved misuse of marital funds and an attempt to steal from the marital assets.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

This is precisely the issue that got us started off on the wrong foot after we got married. Only she wasn't sneeky about it at all, she just spent everything that wasn't nailed down. I soon found myself not being able to pay bills and bouncing practically every check I wrote.

This is definitely something that you will have to address immediately. Your wife isn't trying to be nice and get a higher interest rate on your money. That's plain bull****. She's basically trying to rob you. Money and trust are two of the most important things in a marriage and you are demonstrating that you have neither. I think that you will find that the only way to solve this is separate accounts.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

The why doesn't matter, only that the behaviour is unacceptable to him. There are many reasons a spouse might hide money. Preparing for divorce is only one. IMO, he should to address the behaviour first, stop the bleeding, and then figure out the rest.


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## Skeptical1 (Jul 28, 2016)

True, none of my wife's explanation actually makes sense to me. As you say, how much trouble is it to shove a piece of paper under my nose and say "sign here"? 

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. I'm glad to know the consensus seems to be there is cause for concern, I wouldn't like to think I was being paranoid.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Skeptical1 said:


> True, none of my wife's explanation actually makes sense to me. As you say, how much trouble is it to shove a piece of paper under my nose and say "sign here"?


Most banks would require that you go into the bank, with your ID, and sign the signature card and other bank documents at the bank while they witness the signature(s).



Skeptical1 said:


> I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. I'm glad to know the consensus seems to be there is cause for concern, I wouldn't like to think I was being paranoid.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I once cashed a large amount of our investments out of the market about a month before there was a major correction. I had been considering for a while but made the order quickly while my H was away travelling. 

The difference between your situation and mine is that I informed my H immediately what I had done, and why. Obviously, a month later he was delighted I had done so.

Your situation lacks the transparency that is healthy for a trusting relationship. Think hard about how you want to raise this with her before acting. Right now, surprise is on your side.


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## Skeptical1 (Jul 28, 2016)

sapientia said:


> I once cashed a large amount of our investments out of the market about a month before there was a major correction. I had been considering for a while but made the order quickly while my H was away travelling.
> 
> The difference between your situation and mine is that I informed my H immediately what I had done, and why. Obviously, a month later he was delighted I had done so.
> 
> Your situation lacks the transparency that is healthy for a trusting relationship. Think hard about how you want to raise this with her before acting. Right now, surprise is on your side.


Yes, it's the "forgetting to mention" part that I find most hard to swallow.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Call me inflammatory, but I view this somewhat like cheating. It's bad she did it, it's worse she didn't tell you herself.

The mail thing is just more odd. Is that how you discovered the account, because you opened her mail?

Also, does your wife have her own income?


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## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

OP please keep posting with updates to your situation...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

sapientia said:


> Call me inflammatory, but I view this somewhat like cheating. It's bad she did it, it's worse she didn't tell you herself.
> 
> The mail thing is just more odd. Is that how you discovered the account, because you opened her mail?


Dare I say we agree on something... :wink2:

I'm going to disagree with you by being more inflammatory than you were. It isn't _somewhat_ like cheating, it _is_ cheating. You're being too nice to his wife on this!

Anything that is dishonest is a form of cheating within the marriage.

Your description of how you and your husband manage your finances is exactly how it should be done, where you both have access and knowledge, which leads to the easy trust between you. I bet if something odd happens that your first reaction isn't that your husband is pulling a fast one on you, because you have trust in the relationship. The reason you have trust is that he is worthy of trust, and of course you are worthy of trust and are thus trusted.

I think it is a fairly recent development where financial misconduct is being recognized as _financial infidelity_, similar to how we now talk about _emotional affairs_. Anything which is sneaky and dishonest will destroy trust and destroy love, and I believe is in violation of the marriage vows.


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## Skeptical1 (Jul 28, 2016)

Well, to come clean, these events actually happened quite some time ago. In the end, other trust issues surfaced as well. As some correctly assumed, she was getting ready to go her own way (or send me on mine). We parted company, me very much poorer, and she very much richer. I can't believe how naive I was back then (probably still am). But in the end we both ended up with someone much more suitable.

I was having a disagreement over this with a family member, and wanted to get people's thoughts and advice as they would have given it at the time, rather than in hindsight - hence framing the question in the present tense. Thanks to those who gave their advice, I wish I'd had the benefit of it back then! And hopefully it may prove useful to someone else who reads this.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ha, well, not exactly a troll I suppose.

I lent a roommate my debit card years ago to borrow some cash for an emergency. That went fine. What wasn't so fine was her sneaking into my room weeks later and stealing my card to take more cash. I confronted her at her workplace, got my money back and have been much more careful ever since. 

I had a similar issue a few years later helping out an old friend. I have since learned to be VERY careful "lending" money to family and friends. For the former, I treat it like a gift. For the latter, I just don't do it.

Some people are very... fluid.. about repaying others their generosity. Money is a funny thing, even for some otherwise very decent people. I prefer not to test those limits, so I just don't go there anymore.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

Skeptical1 said:


> I didn't know of the account, so I didn't know about the interest. Besides which, she handles all the financial stuff, including tax. Maybe not any more!


Why? Why didn't you involve yourself in it? My STBXH buried his head in the sand when it came to finances. He hates every aspect of it. It was maddening. It's a good thing I'm an honest person because I could have easily done what your wife did. I did have my own bank account that I put money into each month because I was saving up for divorce. But, I told him I was doing it. He never did ask about it, though. I would have gladly logged into the account so he knew what was going on, but I would have never added him to it.

Edited to say oops. Old thread. My apologies.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Skeptical1 said:


> When we got married, my wife and I set up a single, joint bank account into which all our money goes. There are no individual accounts. Years later, I’ve discovered she has withdrawn thousands of dollars from this joint bank account, and deposited it into an interest bearing deposit in her own name only. She didn’t tell me about this. When I asked her for an explanation, she told me she did it to earn higher interest, and that she put it solely in her name so she wouldn’t have to go to the trouble of getting my signature. We’ve taken out a number of such investments before, always in joint names. On no previous occasion have we done so without consulting.
> 
> Additionally, we had a simple arrangement for many years, ever since we were first married. Whomever gets home first collects the mail and opens it, no matter to whom it is addressed – my wife, myself, or both. This is not a formal arrangement, it is just the way it has been done. Again, after many years, my wife one day announced that she doesn’t want me to open her mail any more – and of course, she won’t open mine. Privacy, she says. I thought this odd, but didn’t make a fuss, and dutifully obeyed. My wife, however, on a number of occasions since has “accidentally” opened my mail.
> 
> I’m thinking that there is something going on here that I need to me concerned about. Do you agree, or am I being needlessly suspicious?




What I did is as follows:

- my wife and I both have our own bank accounts
- both accounts are joint spousal
- she works, has her bills and play money
- I work, have my bills and play money
- we both have our own cars
- we both have our own cell phones
- we both have our own credit cards
- joint spousal credit cards
- line of credit we both use

We can see all finances whenever we wish at any time.

I am the one to spend money on upgrades and repairs way more than she does. So I am the spender were as she is the frugal one.

We don't fight about money much, if at all.

I make sure the bills are paid early, investments go through and meet contractors for repairs and upgrades.

I don't go through my wife's emails or cell phone.

I don't check / open her mail either.

I only open all mail when it comes to finances.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

I'm glad this came up. My wife and I have a joint checking/money market and a LOC on our home (I was on the original mortgage and previous refinances) and I am still on the Title of the house but NOT on the current mortgage. She did this because at the time I was the full time caregiver for our disabled son and as such had no income. She claimed it wasn't necessary for me to be on the loan. 

Recently, we were informed of an adjustment on our escrow which was worded ambiguously and she asked that I call the bank. Much to my surprise they would not divulge any information to me because I was not on the mortgage and she didn't have me named as being authorized to discuss the loan even though my name was on the note to the house. I feel like I've been demoted to being a squatter.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Too many red flags here! Get your name on that account and then go into super-sleuth mode!

Somewhat reminiscent of my FXW cleaning out our safe deposit box just prior to filing for D against me!*


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Too many red flags here! Get your name on that account and then go into super-sleuth mode!
> 
> Somewhat reminiscent of my FXW cleaning out our safe deposit box just prior to filing for D against me!*


You're a dollar short and more than a day late.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

browser said:


> You're a dollar short and more than a day late.


*Which, unfortunately, I often am!*


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Which, unfortunately, I often am!*


Look before you leap.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Skeptical1 said:


> I’m thinking that there is something going on here that I need to me concerned about. Do you agree, or am I being needlessly suspicious?


Have you seen any proof that this secret interest-bearing account really exists? She might have used it as an excuse to cover up a gambling or spending problem.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

There should be a law against posting on a multipage thread after only reading the first post.


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## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

Hello,
Have her split that money with you. You keep 1/2 and put it a bank account. It will be your escape fund should she kick you out of your home. She keeps the account you keep yours. You those keep equal amounts in it. Divert a certain amount to each account equally per month. See a counselor togethet to find out what is up with your marriage that she had to do that. Read the book "First Comes Love, Then Comes Money, by Bethany and Scott Palmer. In my case we had $4K in reserve to pay an electrician, insurance money. We used $2K to pay bills, two months later I spent the last 2K to pay 1,5 bills of hers and 1.5 bills of mine. 2 were joint owned past due car payment. I chose to make an executive decision to do this to not get further behind the bills. I am out of work or underemployed. I wanted to cut cable, internet and the land line until I got a better paying job. I also wanted her son and live in girlfriend to help pay 1/6 of the expenses for rent and other niceties they are using free in the house. Just for a short-time. I also nagged for 7 years they need to move out. Any way my asking for cuts on technology, TV, Cable and Cell phone just fell on deaf ears. She always stonewalled and we just could get our finances in order should we need to replace a appliance or pay a $500.00 Emergency room medical bill. Two days later she said we are divorcing you. I paid it because I just got tired of carrying the expense. After she told me we are divorcing I laughed and said "shoot, I wanted to tell you first!" Then I told her the five things I was divorcing her for. She said it don't matter we have our own reason we don't care what the reason is. We are done!, I told her I can't agree more. She can go find another guy to treat and respect badly. 

Money, step children, lack of communication, and housekeeping skills (hoarding or failure to clean up for yourself over time) is the top reason for divorce. Would you believe it outranks adultery! Go figure.


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