# Erotica = Smut = Porn



## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Webster:
Pornography = "the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement"

Porn is defined by it's purpose, not necessarily by it's content. In general, sexual excitement is driven differently between men and women. 

My position is any woman who reads erotic novels (which is a HUGE market) can't have an issue with men enjoying other forms of pornography. 

Let the debate ensue...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

While I have no issue with porn, there is a difference between movies/nude magazines and an erotic novel: in reading an erotic novel, you are using your own imagination to bring it to life, and could therefore put you and your partner in the fantasy. With a movie or magazine, you have an image other than your partner. And often people have a hard time thinking that you won't think of that image. Kind of like how you can read a book, and picture a character, but then you see the movie based on the book, and after that you can never read the book without picturing the actor/actress who played that character. People think that it would work the same in this situation.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Interesting thoughts. I am not an erotic novel reader and we occasionally watch porn together. I'll be real honest though, I would be very hurt if hubby watched by himself. For me, I guess it would be what would be going through my head. I'm not good enough, not sexy enough, just not enough. Silly thoughts but that would be what would be racing through my brain. I think this is the case for alot of women. In erotic novels it is just words so the reader has to conjure up an image of what they think the characters look like. With porn, that isn't the case. These are real, living women and often times very attractive. I think alot of women feel like they would be compared to these women and that is a very unsettling feeling to those of us who already suffer from esteem issues.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Nothing to debate about, for me. It is what it is, either porn or erotic novels. It's a turn on. I love both 

Porn = motion picture
Book = mental picture

I am sure many men, if they only knew who their SOs conjure up in their minds while reading, would have problems with their own self esteem, too.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

The last time I read an erotic novel was when I was in high school - during the Paleolithic Era. 

People can justify doing anything anytime to anyone. It reminds me of kids who get caught: "Well, he did it first!" or another common version, "Well EVERYONE else is doing it!" 

My ex looked at porn. A lot. I found all sorts of files on our computer where he stored his "stuff." I wasn't snooping. I didn't suspect anything. But I found it. No, we didn't have a crummy sex life; quite the contrary. When I confronted him with my discovery, he blew me off by saying, "It's just 'eye candy.'" 

Result: our sex life fizzled. Not because he was viewing the porn; because of him blowing off my concern and hurt over what he was doing. Bottom line: there are men who don't look at porn and there are women who don't read erotica.

JMO.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> The last time I read an erotic novel was when I was in high school - during the Paleolithic Era.
> 
> People can justify doing anything anytime to anyone. It reminds me of kids who get caught: "Well, he did it first!" or another common version, "Well EVERYONE else is doing it!"
> 
> ...


Yowtch! "Just eye candy"? I think alot of men feel this way and they fail to see how a comment like that would be crushing. I'm sorry hun.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Good posts. I find the whole topic of sexual media so interesting. 

I think there is a general misconception by women that guys fantasize about having sex with the women on the flics or compare their significant others to them. While that may be the case for some guys, I don't think it is any more the case than women picturing Fabio or Robert Pattinson as their leading man. 

Guys don't typically picture having sex with these girls just like they don't pretend to be the guys. They do, however, get sexual excitement from watching two people obviously enjoying the pleasure they are giving and receiving.

I believe it is the guys responsibility to reasure their parnter of this fact and let them know how beautiful they are as well as how beautiful the act of making love is, either taking part in it or watching it. It is also important that watching porn or reading books does not take precidense over the time spent between spouses. You can kill two birds with one stone by watching together or reading a story/scene to your lover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> Good posts. I find the whole topic of sexual media so interesting.
> 
> I think there is a general misconception by women that guys fantasize about having sex with the women on the flics or compare their significant others to them. While that may be the case for some guys, I don't think it is any more the case than women picturing Fabio or Robert Pattinson as their leading man.
> 
> ...


If you think that the women in commercial porn are enjoying it (or the men for that fact), well you have another thing coming. I have posted before that I did one film, during a terrible time in my life and let me assure you, it isn't about pleasure. I think most women pick up on this.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Ok, point taken. I guess it is then the fantasy that they are enjoying themselves. For the actors, it is their chosen job and they get paid for it.

Amature porn is just as beautiful, I think even more so. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Another thing I am curious about those who prefer their partners not look at porn...where do you draw the line?

Assume both partners are compatible sexually and are happy with the quantity and quality of sex. At what point would masturbation become unacceptable:

-using your imagination, visualizing your parnter...or someone else
-reading an erotic novel visualizing your partner...or someone else
-looking at cartoon/hentai
-"artful" still pictures of nude couples without penetration...with penetration
-Cinemax/softcore 9 1/2 weeks type scenes
-amature porn video
-commercial plain vanilla porn flick
-fetish porn flick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> Ok, point taken. I guess it is then the fantasy that they are enjoying themselves. For the actors, it is their chosen job and they get paid for it.
> 
> Amature porn is just as beautiful, I think even more so.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. Non commercial porn is the only thing I will watch. Normal people without lame scripts having sex. BF/GF or husband/wife. They do it because they want to and it is hot. Commercial porn to me, is not....well accept Pirates. That is just beyond awesome. Two couples on that set are actually married, btw.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> If you think that the women in commercial porn are enjoying it (or the men for that fact), well you have another thing coming. I have posted before that I did one film, during a terrible time in my life and let me assure you, it isn't about pleasure. I think most women pick up on this.


To be honest, not everyone is made to be in those flicks, and I can with almost 100% certainty say that the movies from certain producers (Sweetheart/Sweet Sinner etc.) do actually have people who are enjoying it.

Sure, you need to be able to perform in front of an audience, have a different set of acting skills and work under pressure, but they can enjoy it. It's not women who only pick up on this though. I'd say quite a lot of men do as well. I tend to avoid any and all porn in which I feel the women are not enjoying it.

Some stars that work with more reputable firms and really seem to enjoy it are for example Bobbi Starr, Camille Crimson, James Deen, Stoya, Miguel Ferrera etc.\

The most important thing in your event is that well, you did it during a terrible time in your life.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Interesting Brennan, you kinda answered my next post. There is a "line" if you will, on what YOU like. Let's take that a little further. If you are OK with some form of porn, is it OK to impose your preferences on your spouse, just a question. 

I would like to say that I think we should be all open minded and that I personally don't have a line and that I would not impose a line. However, I probably do have a line and would impose it, child and real non- consensual porn.

Funny you mention Pirates. I have heard that a lot from women. While I do enjoy some commercial porn from time to time, mainly for the production value and good lighting, I thought Pirates was just as cheesy as the rest...I and I love Pirates of the Caribbean and Johnny Depp. Pretty much the only commercial stuff I watch is made by Digital Playground (producers of Pirates). 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> Another thing I am curious about those who prefer their partners not look at porn...where do you draw the line?
> 
> Assume both partners are compatible sexually and are happy with the quantity and quality of sex. At what point would masturbation become unacceptable:
> 
> ...


I am very open sexually. I have no issue with nudity or sexuality at all. Black and white nude pictures of good looking people is what I would consider art. Total art. If we didn't have teenage boys and who bring their somewhat puritan friends around, I would have black and white nude art hanging on my walls....everywhere. The human body, be it woman or man is something sexy to me. Commercial porn to me is not sexy. It is scripted and phoney and not something I get turned on by. 

I don't think masturbation is ever unacceptable. Ever. I do it daily and I know he does it often. 

I think porn though has become a larger issue. I don't think nude photos are porn. I think webcams and live requests are porn. Downloads of women doing whatever the male paying customer wants is porn. Playboy? Not porn to me. Society has changed and so has the definition of porn. Back when Playboy started, it was porn. Now? It's for the articles. :rofl:

I know that YOU don't ignore and discard your wife because of porn but for every guy like you out there, there are 3 more who wonder "why doesn't my wife look like that" or "why doesn't my wife do that". When she finds out about his porn habit, it is soul crushing. Her mind races with why am I not sexy enough, why don't I do enough, why am I not enough. 

If you read here long enough you will see a general theme. My wife is overweight, doesn't turn me on, doesn't want sex with me, doesn't do it for me. So the husbands turn to porn. Do they not seriously understand how counterproductive their actions are? Do you think for a second that any wife would want to have sex with a guy who basically got a hard on watching porn and then comes in to the bedroom? It is mind blowing but I have read it here time and time again. If she only, if she would, if she would just. There is a reason she doesn't want sex with him and it isn't because she doesn't like sex......she just doesn't like sex with him! 
He needs to up his game but instead? Porn. That works, right?:rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> To be honest, not everyone is made to be in those flicks, and I can with almost 100% certainty say that the movies from certain producers (Sweetheart/Sweet Sinner etc.) do actually have people who are enjoying it.
> 
> Sure, you need to be able to perform in front of an audience, have a different set of acting skills and work under pressure, but they can enjoy it. It's not women who only pick up on this though. I'd say quite a lot of men do as well. I tend to avoid any and all porn in which I feel the women are not enjoying it.
> 
> ...


I have no issue with commercial porn, I just don't like it. It doesn't turn me on and it is fake and phony. Many people do like it and I will not judge them but the OP talking about it being in essence natural and that is what I took issue with. I like amateur porn and my husband I watch it. Couples who post their sex life on X tube or other sights.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

You make a key point on "proper" porn use. You can't discard your spouse to it. Now if you spouse cuts you out then by all means, that is your only way to get your rocks off. You also need to reassure your spouse that you find them irresistible and porn is no substitute. 

You mention others comparing their spouse to the actors. Few points there. I think both spouses need to put 110% into their physical and psychological sexuality, NO EXCUSES! If one spouse is going to the gym and eating right, they have the obligation to push their spouse to do the same. Kids, chores, finances, headaches be damned. You boyhood need to find a way to split all the daily hassles of life up and make it happen.

Also, I want your take on imposing your boundaries of what you find distasteful porn. Take your preference for example, would you tell your husband not to watch hardcore fetish porn, say BDSM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

hubby said:


> Webster:
> Pornography = "the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement"
> 
> Porn is defined by it's purpose, not necessarily by it's content. In general, sexual excitement is driven differently between men and women.
> ...


I like reading erotic stories. I like to form sexual images when I want to cum, erotic stories help me a lot here. It is strange that porn doesn't help me here. I guess we all have different minds. 

I get horny by watching porn, especially good porn. But after I cum, porn becomes boring to me right away! 

Porn is a tool, if you use it well, it helps you.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I don't think you are alone. Pretty much everything but sleeping (and cuddling/talking to my wife of course) is boring after I cum 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I have no issue with commercial porn, I just don't like it. It doesn't turn me on and it is fake and phony. Many people do like it and I will not judge them but the OP talking about it being in essence natural and that is what I took issue with. I like amateur porn and my husband I watch it. Couples who post their sex life on X tube or other sights.


Ok, have to agree with you there, most commercial porn are just... gross so to speak. But the few I mentioned I really like, as they are softer in tone, made by women, but still hardcore. 

As for amateur, yeah, those are good most of the time 



greenpearl said:


> I get horny by watching porn, especially good porn. But after I cum, porn becomes boring to me right away!


Yeah, have to agree with you there. Think it is the same for most men as well.

Oh, and welcome back, hope you had a nice vacation ^^

And for me, while more innocent, I still consider erotic novels same as porn. Both require some imagination and well, like a poster previously said, the person reading the novel could just as well be thinking about someone else. I watch porn for example and read the erotic stories my gf write (really good btw), but when watching porn, I never ever see it as me doing her or being the guy.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Oh, and welcome back, hope you had a nice vacation ^^
> 
> And for me, while more innocent, I still consider erotic novels same as porn. Both require some imagination and well, like a poster previously said, the person reading the novel could just as well be thinking about someone else. I watch porn for example and read the erotic stories my gf write (really good btw), but when watching porn, I never ever see it as me doing her or being the guy.


I think they are the same too. I go to Internet and search for erotic porn stories to read when I need it.  erotic novels are just books with more erotic stories. 

I can't say my vacation is great to my taste. My husband hadn't been back home for five years, we had to go back home to visit his family, I consider that our responsibility to visit them. The visit was great, my husband has a very loving family.  Because both of us live far away from own countries, when we have money and time, we have to go to either my home or his home, we haven't traveled to other countries, my husband likes traveling, but he has realized he has to face reality. Life is life, fix it by accepting it, feel more peaceful!


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

hubby said:


> My position is any woman who reads erotic novels (which is a HUGE market) can't have an issue with men enjoying other forms of pornography.


maybe you mean that you disagree with a women having issue with it since of course she _can_ have issues with it.


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## RandomMaleUser (Jan 29, 2011)

This is an interesting topic. I really like reading POV's of both men and women in regards to erotica. 

My wife and myself have watched erotica together (I still remember the first time. I have to say it was amazing and VERY suprising), but we haven't for a few years now. I know that for both of us, it needed to at least seem real (there was one that we watched that had a bad moaning/groaning overdub...a real mood killa) and it was best if it was man/woman couple orientated. (My wife always made comment on how biased it was to see woman on woman often, but never man on man....).

Why haven't we gone back? Having children in the house is one of the main issues. It just doesn't seem right to her to think that the kids might bust in on us being entertained, if you know what I mean. Would I go back? Yes, I would love to enjoy watching erotica with my wife again, but if she says no, its not a deal breaker


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Blanca said:


> maybe you mean that you disagree with a women having issue with it since of course she _can_ have issues with it.


Yes, that is what I mean. If she is OK with literary porn, which generally appeals to a womans genetic predisposition to drive sexual excitement, she should understand a mans gentic predisposition for the same. I think the man has the responsibility to effectively communicate why visual porn works for him vs literary porn, and it is the womans responsibility to try and understand their differences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

hubby said:


> If she is OK with literary porn, which generally appeals to a womans genetic predisposition to drive sexual excitement, she should understand a mans gentic predisposition for the same. I think the man has the responsibility to effectively communicate why visual porn works for him vs literary porn, and it is the womans responsibility to try and understand their differences.


 I absolutely 100 % agree with this. I have always loved my romance novels, used to sometimes skip pages to get to the Hot stuff, or read all day just to get to the JUICE, oh my, did that ever do wonders for me! Husband got lucky those nights for sure. If only I read more of them back in the day! 





hubby said:


> I think there is a general misconception by women that guys fantasize about having sex with the women on the flics or compare their significant others to them. While that may be the case for some guys, I don't think it is any more the case than women picturing Fabio or Robert Pattinson as their leading man.
> 
> 
> I believe it is the guys responsibility to reasure their parnter of this fact and let them know how beautiful they are as well as how beautiful the act of making love is, either taking part in it or watching it. It is also important that watching porn or reading books does not take precidense over the time spent between spouses. You can kill two birds with one stone by watching together or reading a story/scene to your lover.


 Again, I feel what Hubby is saying is SPOT on in healthy marraiges that enjoy some porn together. Me & my husband have talked about this. I wanted to know if he EVER thinks on these women he looks at & downloads (He enjoys naked Playboy pics more than dvd flicks- what Brennan would call ART and not porn, interesting ). He has also had lap dances. He tells me he enjoys the looking, he enjoys the view (after all he is a man), he is not interested in seeing them "do it" , but taking it off seductively, it is arousing to look at. 

But still he swears when he is with ME alone in our intimate moments, he never thinks of anyone but me. Maybe not fair to ask, but I am just curious as I am always trying to get him to open up about his fantasies. Trying to dig for something. He knows I wouldn’t be bothered at all. I like it that he is a dirty old man, that means he is healthy sexually. I take no offense to his looking at all. And glad he allows me to look! I have admitted to him that I have thought on some hot porn star, or a leading man in a Romantic movie like "the Notebook" etc. I told him if he tells me he has, it might make me a little jealous, I might like it ! But he swears he does not. I even tell him that is a little boring. But it is sweet. 

I know why it wouldn't bother me --exactly what Hubby said -He reasures me all the time of what I mean to him and our intimacy means to his life, that I am his everything. This is also why he is not bend out of shape that I have. He can feel it everyday from me, that nothing comes before him. 




Brennan said:


> I am very open sexually. I have no issue with nudity or sexuality at all. Black and white nude pictures of good looking people is what I would consider art. Total art. If we didn't have teenage boys and who bring their somewhat puritan friends around, I would have black and white nude art hanging on my walls....everywhere. The human body, be it woman or man is something sexy to me.


 I agree !


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

atruckersgirl said:


> While I have no issue with porn, there is a difference between movies/nude magazines and an erotic novel: in reading an erotic novel, you are using your own imagination to bring it to life, and could therefore put you and your partner in the fantasy. With a movie or magazine, you have an image other than your partner. And often people have a hard time thinking that you won't think of that image. Kind of like how you can read a book, and picture a character, but then you see the movie based on the book, and after that you can never read the book without picturing the actor/actress who played that character. People think that it would work the same in this situation.


I think that's a quite arbitrary distinction. Erotic novels, romance novels, daytime dramas ("soap operas") even things like Grey's Anatomy are "porn" for many women: they are artistic media designed to elicit a sexual response. Essentially the same thing as hardcore for men. Women are just wired differently.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

As both a reader and writer of erotic novels, I can agree that they are "porn" for both men and women.

And as a professional in the porn industry, I can assure you that there are plenty of women who enjoy video porn, although the demographics and the subject matter might surprise you. 

But once you recognize that men are sight-dominant when it comes to sexual selection, looking for women who fit genetically predetermined standards of "good breeders", women are more "success dominant", that is, finding erotic excitement in the idea of a successful man, better described than pictured. Romance novels, soap operas, and other institutions of female-oriented porn tend to revolve around specific types of men, rather than their physical bodies. Although, to be fair, the hero in question usually has ripped abs and gorgeous eyes.


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## eli (Jan 29, 2011)

Some years ago I found a secret stash of H's porn mags (a shock at the time). I was curious so I read them. All of the text was anti-wife propaganda. There were tips on how to take your mind of your wife when having sex with her. They took a very definite position that anyone reading them hated their wife - everything in there was geared up this way. These were just cheap corner shop type mags. If the writing had been about a different subject - say racism - it would be banned. It made me see H in a different way.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I want to vomit again from this post. Why oh why did I venture into the "Sex in Marriage" topic as it rarely ends nicely for me and is rarely about sex in marriage.

Blah. How do you compare a sex industry that promotes the objectification and falsification of REAL women to the pages of a book? 

How? How? How? OK, I get from another thread I read (although I didn't read details) that IanIronWood is from the porn industry. Wow, great. You must have a big penis. Ironically, a big penis isn't even valued by women as much as it is valued by men. teeehehe

Sorry my insomnia is self indulgent, I apologize in advance for my blunt honesty. I also apologize to myself for ever stepping into this part of the site...WTH was I thinking, I usually avoid it like the plague for my thoughts don't normally coincide with the thoughts of others.

Whatever, anyway, I've dealt with the atrocities of the sex industry and there were no large penises involved or maybe they were but they weren't the norm. There were women who felt that the quick money was better than a long and arduous road to their dreams, oh and then how many nightmares to face over the 12 year old who was in a sex slave house in Thailand where she was purposely addicted to heroin so that she could be laid in beds next to other young girls only to have men pay to take advantage of these drug addicted girls. Oh I could go on...but who cares right? Hey! Men need sex after all!

NOT!

Ironically, I'm not a prude. I just don't take stock in or value pointless sex that causes more problems than solutions and allows for a quick fix that takes away from elsewhere while also taking advantage of women and men who are quite confused about what equates intimacy.

The writings of an erotic book come from a singular imagination.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

You women could stop buying that Smut called Glamour off the drug store shelves.

I see that smut lying all about work with teh women I work with - "How to give your guy the best blowjob ever." and so forth.

At least guys consume the stuff in the privacy of their own home.

Then I get a lecture from Trenton on porn.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Although, to be fair, the hero in question usually has ripped abs and gorgeous eyes.


Yeah, that'd be me.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

For anyone who cares,

I don't read erotic novels - bored by them - I mean how many times can that knight in shinning armor take the love of his life into his arms and...boring!

I don't like Cosmo

I do love Star, National Enquirer, Globe, etc. - are they considered smut?

And I don't do this often, but Trenton is right on target with the confusion on intimacy between men and women. Intimacy to me in my husband and I together, experiencing the wonders of each other and enjoying ourselves, it's not watching two unknown actors humping each other on the screen - that's not intimacy - it's pure, unadulterated sex!

I know the difference...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I see no difference in watching two couples have unadulterated sex and using your imagination. In the end it is the same thing. Guys, unfortunately, lack the wild and vivid imagination of a woman, but are much more visually stimulated. 

Trenton, do you think that the majority of women imagine their husbands as the impossibly handsome, incredibly romantic, wildly passionate and can offer fresh new love when they read romance or erotic novels? Do you think they imagine their husbands when this perfect man ravishes them after perfectly teasing them with unfulfilled sexual tension?

The fact is that we men and woman have different preferred media for deriving sexual excitement through depiction of erotic behavior (the very definition of porn).


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

hubby said:


> Yes, that is what I mean. If she is OK with literary porn, which generally appeals to a womans genetic predisposition to drive sexual excitement, she should understand a mans gentic predisposition for the same. I think the man has the responsibility to effectively communicate why visual porn works for him vs literary porn, and it is the womans responsibility to try and understand their differences.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Id even take it a step further and say that literary porn is more deleterious to a relationship than visual porn in that one can create literally the perfect fantasy, since its completely left up to one's imagination.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I do love Star, National Enquirer, Globe, etc. - are they considered smut?
> 
> .



Yes. They represent a type of abstract sexual voyeurism that many, many women enjoy. By living vicariously through the tawdry lives of celebrities, you are indulging in a media designed to elicit an erotic (although usually not overtly sexual) response. Talking about Brad and Jennifer breaking up is as exciting to most women as talking about the cheerleaders at the superbowl is to most men.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

hubby said:


> I see no difference in watching two couples have unadulterated sex and using your imagination. In the end it is the same thing. Guys, unfortunately, lack the wild and vivid imagination of a woman, but are much more visually stimulated.
> 
> Trenton, do you think that the majority of women imagine their husbands as the impossibly handsome, incredibly romantic, wildly passionate and can offer fresh new love when they read romance or erotic novels? Do you think they imagine their husbands when this perfect man ravishes them after perfectly teasing them with unfulfilled sexual tension?
> 
> The fact is that we men and woman have different preferred media for deriving sexual excitement through depiction of erotic behavior (the very definition of porn).


I don't think that men lack the vivid imagination of women - I think they are just lazy and don't use it!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Yes. They represent a type of abstract sexual voyeurism that many, many women enjoy. By living vicariously through the tawdry lives of celebrities, you are indulging in a media designed to elicit an erotic (although usually not overtly sexual) response. Talking about Brad and Jennifer breaking up is as exciting to most women as talking about the cheerleaders at the superbowl is to most men.


Damn - I'm not cancelling my subscriptions! 

But like I said before, I like porn and watch it myself.

Porn is okay, but not as a substitute for real-life action - that is where men and/or women can go wrong...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I don't think that men lack the vivid imagination of women - I think they are just lazy and don't use it!


Maybe, but I seriously doubt that men's imagination is up to par with a woman's.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

hubby said:


> I see no difference in watching two couples have unadulterated sex and using your imagination. In the end it is the same thing. Guys, unfortunately, lack the wild and vivid imagination of a woman, but are much more visually stimulated.
> 
> Trenton, do you think that the majority of women imagine their husbands as the impossibly handsome, incredibly romantic, wildly passionate and can offer fresh new love when they read romance or erotic novels? Do you think they imagine their husbands when this perfect man ravishes them after perfectly teasing them with unfulfilled sexual tension?
> 
> The fact is that we men and woman have different preferred media for deriving sexual excitement through depiction of erotic behavior (the very definition of porn).



You're actually kind of missing the point. When women explore erotic fantasies ("female porn") the focus on a hero's secondary sexual characteristics -- his build, his eyes, his general appearance and demeanor -- are completely secondary to the primary sexual characteristics found in female-oriented porn: success, ambition, power, and control. And as far as "romance", there's a reason that the bodice-ripping pirate romance novels of the 80s were so freakin' popular: it's not that pirates were romantic individually, the male lead character's most important characteristic is always his insane desire for the heroine. In fact, the focus of most successful romance novels is the fact that the main female lead is always desired by every man she meets . . . but she chooses only the most successful.

Men treat women as sex objects in aggregate. Women treat men as success objects in aggregate.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Blanca said:


> Id even take it a step further and say that literary porn is more deleterious to a relationship than visual porn in that one can create literally the perfect fantasy, since its completely left up to one's imagination.


I could DEFINITELY see this happening.

And I think it happens a lot more than people realize.

It sets up the myth of the "knight in white shining armor" and "Cinderella" that some of us gals might have expected out of our future relationships.

And this, of course, immediately sets-up our SO for failure.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I could DEFINITELY see this happening.
> 
> And I think it happens a lot more than people realize.
> 
> ...


I agree. But for me, I see it as motivation and opportunity to get insight into the woman pshychi. If this "knight in white shining armor" is what a woman wants, then give it to her. It will not be the same environment as in the stories, but you can get close. Yeah, it might take a little "acting" but it is fun too. The problem is when a man does not understand, and a woman does not communicate, that this is what she desires, deep down at an animal level. 

Now draw the same conclusion from a man's perspective on "man porn"...:smthumbup:


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

IanIronwood said:


> You're actually kind of missing the point. When women explore erotic fantasies ("female porn") the focus on a hero's secondary sexual characteristics -- his build, his eyes, his general appearance and demeanor -- are completely secondary to the primary sexual characteristics found in female-oriented porn: success, ambition, power, and control. And as far as "romance", there's a reason that the bodice-ripping pirate romance novels of the 80s were so freakin' popular: it's not that pirates were romantic individually, the male lead character's most important characteristic is always his insane desire for the heroine. In fact, the focus of most successful romance novels is the fact that the main female lead is always desired by every man she meets . . . but she chooses only the most successful.
> 
> Men treat women as sex objects in aggregate. Women treat men as success objects in aggregate.


I get it.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

hubby said:


> I agree. But for me, I see it as motivation and opportunity to get insight into the woman pshychi. If this "knight in white shining armor" is what a woman wants, then give it to her.


The problem is that what a woman says she wants and what her actions prove she actually wants are often diametrically opposed. They say they want a knight in shining armor, but you can kill yourself to be that for her and you still won't measure up. They say they want a "nice guy", but we fellas all know how that works. I don't think I need to go on.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> You women could stop buying that Smut called Glamour off the drug store shelves.
> 
> I see that smut lying all about work with teh women I work with - "How to give your guy the best blowjob ever." and so forth.
> 
> ...


That is a whole 'nother problem and in actuality they are books on what society believes women need to know to have successful relationships with men including how to look and behave. 

Besides I love to give lectures and it doesn't take much to prompt one!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

hubby said:


> Trenton, do you think that the majority of women imagine their husbands as the impossibly handsome, incredibly romantic, wildly passionate and can offer fresh new love when they read romance or erotic novels? Do you think they imagine their husbands when this perfect man ravishes them after perfectly teasing them with unfulfilled sexual tension?
> 
> The fact is that we men and woman have different preferred media for deriving sexual excitement through depiction of erotic behavior (the very definition of porn).


First of all, I'd never read one of those books so I'm not even sure what they're about except in that I've seen the covers. They turn me off without me even turning the pages.

In regards to your question, I have no idea. What gets me going are literary fiction books that chronicle the up's and down's of a love story such as Breathing Lessons by Anne Tyler or Practical Magic by Alice Hoffman. There is both tragedy and romance in both but it is based on believable relationships that are written in a way where I feel like I'm walking around in the a character's shoes and depending on perspective I get to walk around in a lot of people's shoes which is even better. They are written with such literary beauty that I enjoy every page in a different emotional way.

There are some pretty hot love scenes weaved throughout these types of books as well...BUT...the emotions of both characters are what fuel the sex scene...AND...that is what turns me on.

In my bedroom, my husband is who I imagine when I masturbate and I usually choose a position or sex encounter that I enjoyed with him in the recent past to do so. Even if I recently read a sex scene in a book, I will replace the lead character's visual image for my husbands but live the same scene in my head. My husband is the only person who has made me cum. I think in my mind this is why it's always him...I know he can do it. heh

I don't know about other women. The more I read, the more I realize I'm not that normal.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> That is a while 'nother problem and in actuality they are books on what society believes women need to know to have successful relationships with men including how to look and behave.
> 
> Besides I love to give lectures and it doesn't take much to prompt one!


Did Scanner just compare Glamour magazine to porn? :rofl: Wow. What's next? Bukkake to Vogue?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Come on now Trenton, I like a woman with a strong opinon who is not afraid to speak it...



Trenton said:


> Blah. How do you compare a sex industry that promotes the objectification and falsification of REAL women to the pages of a book?





hubby said:


> Trenton, do you think that the majority of women imagine their husbands as the impossibly handsome, incredibly romantic, wildly passionate and can offer fresh new love when they read romance or erotic novels? Do you think they imagine their husbands when this perfect man ravishes them after perfectly teasing them with unfulfilled sexual tension?
> 
> The fact is that we men and woman have different preferred media for deriving sexual excitement through depiction of erotic behavior (the very definition of porn).


I guess these erotic novels do not falsify men...


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

RandomMaleUser said:


> This is an interesting topic. I really like reading POV's of both men and women in regards to erotica.
> 
> My wife and myself have watched erotica together (I still remember the first time. I have to say it was amazing and VERY suprising), but we haven't for a few years now. I know that for both of us, it needed to at least seem real (there was one that we watched that had a bad moaning/groaning overdub...a real mood killa) and it was best if it was man/woman couple orientated. (My wife always made comment on how biased it was to see woman on woman often, but never man on man....).
> 
> Why haven't we gone back? Having children in the house is one of the main issues. It just doesn't seem right to her to think that the kids might bust in on us being entertained, if you know what I mean. Would I go back? Yes, I would love to enjoy watching erotica with my wife again, but if she says no, its not a deal breaker


This is very interesting for a couple of reasons and underscore some key male/female differences. For example it seem that you and your wife each liked viewing Eritica/porn whatever you want to call it but, she will not have it now that the kids are in the house our of fear that you may be "discovered" I would be curious to know weather this is really the case or subliminally if she feels she is really doing something wrong. You seem to indicate you would be OK with it and i am reading into it that you would like to use porn again but, don't "push" the issue. If you were to lock your door wouldn't the issue of being "discovered" be elliminated. I think there are other forces comming into play here. 

I think that this underscores the validity of Janie's recent post about (women and sexuality). Having traveled to some European countries i have noticed that many have much more open attitudes toward sex than here in the states. Since both american women and their foriegn counterparts sharet the same genetic structure then we have to look toward how girls are raised to understand some of these issues. 

Very interesting! Sorry if i got the thread off track.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

You've got to see the talk I post from Ted.com in the ladies lounge in a bit. You will be laughing so hard. It's a talk given by a female cartoonist and her cartoons are so funny. In one cartoon there are two girls on the carpet with one having a cute little doll and the other a Barbie doll in a two piece bathing suit and the one little girl says to the other girl, "I haven't decided what I'm going to be yet when I grow up a good girl or a ****."

hehehehe


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

hubby said:


> Come on now Trenton, I like a woman with a strong opinon who is not afraid to speak it...
> 
> I guess these erotic novels do not falsify men...


*They're not real men. Hence it is actually a REAL fantasy* (The irony of a real fantasy is not lost on me). Read Penthouse and only fill it with the erotic stories, get rid of the pictures except on the cover and it has to be a cartoon depiction. Then maybe you have male equivalent with less filler and more sex. Now I haven't read Penthouse in years but found one of my fathers as a girl. It was a small book filled with sex stories as I remember. No idea if it still is.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Oh and also, why should I care if you like or don't like a woman with a strong opinion who is not afraid to speak it?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

hubby said:


> I agree. But for me, I see it as motivation and opportunity to get insight into the woman pshychi. If this "knight in white shining armor" is what a woman wants, then give it to her. It will not be the same environment as in the stories, but you can get close. Yeah, it might take a little "acting" but it is fun too. The problem is when a man does not understand, and a woman does not communicate, that this is what she desires, deep down at an animal level.
> 
> Now draw the same conclusion from a man's perspective on "man porn"...:smthumbup:


Defend porn to the death...at least you stick by your opinions - I like a strong man too!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Oh and also, why should I care if you like or don't like a woman with a strong opinion who is not afraid to speak it?


Exactly! Awesome!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

hubby said:


> Exactly! Awesome!


You are frustrating me more by your lack of accepting I am not just a woman but maybe that's because you value porn too much and have forgotten that those of us with boobs/tits/bum actually have things to say that move beyond pleasure cues intended to get you to spew, eh?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> You are frustrating me more by your lack of accepting I am not just a woman but maybe that's because you value porn too much and have forgotten that those of us with boobs/tits/bum actually have things to say that move beyond pleasure cues intended to get you to spew, eh?


I think you are misdirecting at Hubby. Ironwood is the one who said it is a man's god given right to view porn, no matter what the content. Explotation of women be damned.  and


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> *They're not real men. Hence it is actually a REAL fantasy* (The irony of a real fantasy is not lost on me).


OK, it is not lost on you, so you get it. It is all just fantasy. I know for a fact that a lot of women picture a REAL man as their leading man when they read those stories. Take this REAL man (who is likely much more attractive than the women in porn), line them up with the PERFECT personality and behavior = way hotter than visual porn...


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

hubby said:


> OK, it is not lost on you, so you get it. It is all just fantasy. I know for a fact that a lot of women picture a REAL man as their leading man when they read those stories. Take this REAL man (who is likely much more attractive than the women in porn), line them up with the PERFECT personality and behavior = way hotter than visual porn...


You know, when I fantasize, my hubby is always the leading man - always, no exception.

Wonder what that means?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Trenton said:


> You are frustrating me more by your lack of accepting I am not just a woman but maybe that's because you value porn too much and have forgotten that those of us with boobs/tits/bum actually have things to say that move beyond pleasure cues intended to get you to spew, eh?


The wit...$1.99
The charm...$1.99

The comebacks...priceless! :smthumbup:

You crack me up sometimes...just lettin' ya know.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> You are frustrating me more by your lack of accepting I am not just a woman but maybe that's because you value porn too much and have forgotten that those of us with boobs/tits/bum actually have things to say that move beyond pleasure cues intended to get you to spew, eh?


OK, sorry. I thought I was reading into some exceptionally good wit and a little sass on my original comment. I really don't mean to offend.

You just seem like a strong woman and I find that to be, well, cool.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I think you are misdirecting at Hubby. Ironwood is the one who said it is a man's god given right to view porn, no matter what the content. Explotation of women be damned.  and


Hubby is proposing that porn and erotic fiction books are similar. I'm telling him why they're not and he's telling me that he likes a strong woman who's not afraid to speak her mind. It's condescending and discrediting my view because I am a woman.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> The wit...$1.99
> The charm...$1.99
> 
> The comebacks...priceless! :smthumbup:
> ...


OK, maybe I was picking up on some good wit and that was just a little bit more sass she was throwing my way for good measure.

I love this site.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

hubby said:


> OK, sorry. I thought I was reading into some exceptionally good wit and a little sass on my original comment. I really don't mean to offend.
> 
> You just seem like a strong woman and I find that to be, well, cool.


Strong in some things and weak in others, like all of us. I can assure you I'm not _that _witty.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Hubby is proposing that porn and erotic fiction books are similar. I'm telling him why they're not and he's telling me that he likes a strong woman who's not afraid to speak her mind. It's condescending and discrediting my view because I am a woman.


Hey, speak your mind. That is why I started this thread, I knew I was asking for trouble...and strong opinions.

A condescending attitude is the last trait I would want to display. I do appreciate your opinion and position, and I am listening...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

hubby said:


> Hey, speak your mind. That is why I started this thread, I knew I was asking for trouble...and strong opinions.
> 
> A condescending attitude is the last trait I would want to display. I do appreciate your opinion and position, and I am listening...


OK then, great. Now agree with me and it would be even better.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> OK then, great. Now agree with me and it would be even better.


I know you really don't want me to agree with you


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

hubby said:


> I know you really don't want me to agree with you


Is that the porn talking for you again? How about this...agree with me and then we'll see if I want you to agree with me.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Is that the porn talking for you again? How about this...agree with me and then we'll see if I want you to agree with me.


Decisions...decisions...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Don't hurt yourself using that second brain of yours.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Don't hurt yourself using that second brain of yours.


Don't you mean second head? :rofl:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Don't you mean second head? :rofl:


That works too. :smthumbup:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> First of all, I'd never read one of those books so I'm not even sure what they're about except in that I've seen the covers. They turn me off without me even turning the pages.
> 
> In regards to your question, I have no idea. What gets me going are literary fiction books that chronicle the up's and down's of a love story such as Breathing Lessons by Anne Tyler or Practical Magic by Alice Hoffman. There is both tragedy and romance in both but it is based on believable relationships that are written in a way where I feel like I'm walking around in the a character's shoes and depending on perspective I get to walk around in a lot of people's shoes which is even better. They are written with such literary beauty that I enjoy every page in a different emotional way.
> 
> There are some pretty hot love scenes weaved throughout these types of books as well...BUT...the emotions of both characters are what fuel the sex scene...AND...that is what turns me on.


And that's why it's porn. It turns you on.

Most female-oriented porn is about beauty and relationships and successful men who know just what to say at the right time. Which, of course, sets women up with highly unrealistic expectations of what their menfolk should be doing.

Gee, kinda like the complaint about porn setting up unreasonable expectations of what womenfolk should be doing.

See how that works?



Trenton said:


> In my bedroom, my husband is who I imagine when I masturbate and I usually choose a position or sex encounter that I enjoyed with him in the recent past to do so. Even if I recently read a sex scene in a book, I will replace the lead character's visual image for my husbands but live the same scene in my head. My husband is the only person who has made me cum. I think in my mind this is why it's always him...I know he can do it. heh
> 
> I don't know about other women. The more I read, the more I realize I'm not that normal.




By using the book as an erotic inspiration, you have consumed porn. You might substitute your husband's image, but the fantasy material came from the book. Porn is all about fantasy.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> And that's why it's porn. It turns you on.
> 
> Most female-oriented porn is about beauty and relationships and successful men who know just what to say at the right time. Which, of course, sets women up with highly unrealistic expectations of what their menfolk should be doing.
> 
> ...


Judging from your name I don't think you understand much about a woman's sexuality. I truly imagine Iron Wood would hurt in more ways than one.

So let me get this straight, when I'm turned on by the beauty of the flower and swept up in the moment on a spring day and suddenly find myself turned on then I'm viewing porn? Damn, porn is every-freaking-where.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian, 
I disagree that porn is all about fantasy. Fantasy novels are about fantasy. Porn is very very well. Those are living, breathing human beings. What they are doing is very real.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> I disagree that porn is all about fantasy. Fantasy novels are about fantasy. Porn is very very well. Those are living, breathing human beings. What they are doing is very real.


Sorry Brennan, I just don't see the difference. Porn really is just fantasy.

Let's draw a scenario here. Let's say I watch some porn and then go about my merry way.

A couple hours later I FANTASIZE about the scene that I saw. Granted, my short term memory sucks, so I will have to muster up as much imagination as I can, but is there really a difference between getting my rocks off with the action going on in front of me or in my mind? Isn't that the same think women do when they read the books. When they fantasize, is it some vague smoke monster right out of a scene from Lost produced by Salvador Dali, or is it Johhny Depp or Robert Pattinson or the scene from The Notebook?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I want to vomit again from this post. Why oh why did I venture into the "Sex in Marriage" topic as it rarely ends nicely for me and is rarely about sex in marriage.
> 
> Blah. How do you compare a sex industry that promotes the objectification and falsification of REAL women to the pages of a book?
> 
> How? How? How? OK, I get from another thread I read (although I didn't read details) that IanIronWood is from the porn industry. Wow, great. You must have a big penis. Ironically, a big penis isn't even valued by women as much as it is valued by men. teeehehe


Actually, the size of my weiner doesn't enter into it. I write copy for one of the largest adult companies in the world. I'm a well-educated sexual professional, and I don't have to take off my clothes to do it. Not that I'd mind, probably, but honestly those guys have to work too hard.

And thank you so much for over-generalizing an industry that you frankly seemed poorly informed about. Throwing in a personal jibe at me for no particular reason also demonstrates a lack of seriousness about the subject. Perhaps you see Sex In Marriage as a frivolous thing, but for many of us it is a deadly serious topic that can cause either great joy or great misery. 

My position in the industry has allowed me a great deal of access into the heart of the American married couple, and of American sex trends in general. I'm a scholar of sexuality, a self-described sex nerd. And while pornstars and such are certainly in my purview, so is the physiology, psychology, sociology and economics of the current generation's sexual issues. So if I've adequately stated my credentials outside of my penile size, hopefully you'll consider me a serious resource instead of a target of derision.

Never diminish the penis. Never.



Trenton said:


> Sorry my insomnia is self indulgent, I apologize in advance for my blunt honesty. I also apologize to myself for ever stepping into this part of the site...WTH was I thinking, I usually avoid it like the plague for my thoughts don't normally coincide with the thoughts of others.
> 
> Whatever, anyway, I've dealt with the atrocities of the sex industry and there were no large penises involved or maybe they were but they weren't the norm. There were women who felt that the quick money was better than a long and arduous road to their dreams, oh and then how many nightmares to face over the 12 year old who was in a sex slave house in Thailand where she was purposely addicted to heroin so that she could be laid in beds next to other young girls only to have men pay to take advantage of these drug addicted girls. Oh I could go on...but who cares right? Hey! Men need sex after all!
> 
> NOT!


Let me stop you right there.

I'm not denying that there is a lot of ugly, illegal and unethical stuff that goes along with the sex industry, and thanks to short-sighted, puritanical social and legal codes about the subject there is a thriving black market for all sorts of really, really icky stuff. Believe me, no one hates the child sex trade more than a legitimate porn producer. Last year professionals in the industry alerted the FBI to over 600 cases of child porn they encountered. That's the highest of any industry outside of law-enforcement in America. Granted, there is corruption in the porn industry, but then again there is corruption in every industry. 

But let's slip beyond the illegal and into the realm of mainstream porn. The legal industry that's provided jobs and taxes for so many over the years? On that subject, I am an authority. 

The mainstream porn industry is a highly-regulated industry that despite popular press about "big porn" is actually more than 90% made up of small mom-and-pop businesses. I work for one of the biggest companies, and despite our size in the industry we only have a small fraction of the business. Every single person who appears in a mainstream porn flick has documentation proving their legal age at the time of production -- every boob in my building has paper trail ensuring that we stay legal. Those performers, and the people behind the camera, work incredibly hard at a demanding job without benefits. 

I interview porn stars. Many are single moms who love sex and who see this as a way to be able to spend more time with their kids and still make a good living without a college diploma. And you'd be amazed at the number of college graduates who have chosen a career in porn. While there are certainly a number of damaged people, the overwhelming majority of performers, directors, and support people love their jobs and will keep doing what they're doing for the same reason anyone else does. The women are well-compensated (and get paid far, far more than the men) and treated with respect . . . because a director who doesn't isn't in business long. The industry is fairly small, and gossips a lot, so if you aren't good to work with everyone knows about it instantly.

Equating the mainstream sex industry with the illegal sex trade is like comparing your corner jewelry store to Blood Diamond merchants. There is a difference between legitimate commerce and purposeful violation of the law. And the fact is, yes, men need sex. You can scoff at that fact, you can deny it all you want, you can rail against the unfairness of it, but the cold, hard-wired genetic fact of the matter is that men need a healthy sexual expression in proportion to their personal needs in order to maintain a stable mental outlook. That's the fact, and pretending otherwise doesn't do anyone any good.



Trenton said:


> Ironically, I'm not a prude. I just don't take stock in or value pointless sex that causes more problems than solutions and allows for a quick fix that takes away from elsewhere while also taking advantage of women and men who are quite confused about what equates intimacy.
> 
> The writings of an erotic book come from a singular imagination.



Being the author, through various pseudonyms, of six or so erotic books, I can agree with that. But I'd also say that what you see as pointless sex other people may view as fulfilling life experience.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

It's about fantasy for you but it is very real for someone else. In that it is actually happening or has happened in REAL life. It's as if you're so limiting that you believe the world begins and ends with you.

Do you see no difference in watching a crime scene on television that is made up rather than watching the REAL videos of Al Qaeda chopping heads off of REAL people?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I think you are misdirecting at Hubby. Ironwood is the one who said it is a man's god given right to view porn, no matter what the content. Explotation of women be damned.  and


I'd say that's a gross mis-characterization of my position.

And why doesn't anyone want to address the exploitation of men?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Hubby is proposing that porn and erotic fiction books are similar. I'm telling him why they're not and he's telling me that he likes a strong woman who's not afraid to speak her mind. It's condescending and discrediting my view because I am a woman.


I'd say you haven't made a compelling argument about how porn and erotic fiction books are dissimilar. Both are artistic media designed to elicit an erotic response. One has more pictures and more graphic sex. I'm far less concerned with your gender than your arguments.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> Sorry Brennan, I just don't see the difference. Porn really is just fantasy.
> 
> Let's draw a scenario here. Let's say I watch some porn and then go about my merry way.
> 
> A couple hours later I FANTASIZE about the scene that I saw. Granted, my short term memory sucks, so I will have to muster up as much imagination as I can, but is there really a difference between getting my rocks off with the action going on in front of me or in my mind? Isn't that the same think women do when they read the books. When they fantasize, is it some vague smoke monster right out of a scene from Lost produced by Salvador Dali, or is it Johhny Depp or Robert Pattinson or the scene from The Notebook?


I'll tell you the difference between a sexy novel vs. commercial porn....one are words on a page and the characters are fictional. The other? The stats are staggering as to how childhood sexual abuse and subsequent drug abuse fuels this industry. These women continue to be abused, they are just getting paid. I have no idea what Ironwood's experience is with this industry but as I have mentioned before, I participated in a film 20 years ago. Out of 18 women, I was the only one who hadn't been sexually abused. Now tell me that you cannot see the difference between a woman high as a kite getting gang banged vs. Twilight.
I think alot of women are smarter than men on this issue and they object to porn based on what I wrote. It seems men don't really care if the "performer" was raped at 12. Sad, really sad.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I'd say you haven't made a compelling argument about how porn and erotic fiction books are dissimilar. Both are artistic media designed to elicit an erotic response. One has more pictures and more graphic sex. I'm far less concerned with your gender than your arguments.


I just did.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Judging from your name I don't think you understand much about a woman's sexuality. I truly imagine Iron Wood would hurt in more ways than one.


It's my professional name, designed to elicit an erotic response. It seems to have worked, considering your visualization.



Trenton said:


> So let me get this straight, when I'm turned on by the beauty of the flower and swept up in the moment on a spring day and suddenly find myself turned on then I'm viewing porn? Damn, porn is every-freaking-where.



Yes, yes it is. Exactly my point. Thank you.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> I disagree that porn is all about fantasy. Fantasy novels are about fantasy. Porn is very very well. Those are living, breathing human beings. What they are doing is very real.


So are actors on stage, but the _medium_ is still fantasy. Unless you're watching a how-to video. It's fiction -- performed fiction, but fiction nonetheless.

And believe me, "very real" doesn't describe much in a real porn set. Let me assure you. The fifteen minutes of tape you see is the result of 2-6 hours of hard work. And there's chafing . . .


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Ian, you leave me breathless in a bad way. Sigh.

I have gotten in depth about the porn industry and why it's doing more harm than good. I have experience as well and it does not echo yours at all. You are also not a woman so everything you learn about them is guesswork and based upon the women you are surrounding yourself with. Then couple that with their words only being as good as their honesty with them-self and with you.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

When I read your name at first I saw a 4x4 and thought...Ouch! Splinters. Then I pictured a pitchfork for some weird reason but eventually I ironed (teehehe) out the name and thought...duh, of course this is what you'd expect a porn dude to call himself.

Also I think you've been in the porn industry too long (omgosh another pun!) if you believe that everything is porn. Go out and get some fresh air.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> It's about fantasy for you but it is very real for someone else. In that it is actually happening or has happened in REAL life. It's as if you're so limiting that you believe the world begins and ends with you.


"very real for someone else" -- I mentioned just how "real" a professional porn set is in another post, but let's focus on the "real" for a moment: the majority of porn on the internet is actually amatuer stuff, made by consenting couples for their own enjoyment and the enjoyment they get by sharing the video. Heck, I'm sure more than one of you has made such a video yourself, whether you've shared it or not.

Utterly real, authentic sexual experience. But you're right, to me, it's a fantasy. Just like "reality" television is about real human drama, "reality porn" is about real, authentic human sexual interaction. Real, real, real. 

So what's the problem?



Trenton said:


> Do you see no difference in watching a crime scene on television that is made up rather than watching the REAL videos of Al Qaeda chopping heads off of REAL people?


Sure, big difference. But the acts of violence that are depicted are the same, despite the difference in "reality". We can get into a really deep discussion about depictions of violence v. depictions of sex, but this is probably not the best thread for that.

In any case, I can tell fact from fiction, if that's what you're asking.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton,
I will just call Uncle on this. If somebody can take the mental leap and say "atm" is the same as Twilight, well I am with you. Breathless and not in a good way. I agree, get out a bit. See the neighborhood.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I have a problem with the porn industry and their portrayal of women and the treatment/stigmas/mis-informed fantasies it upholds and promotes.

No I'm not asking if you can tell fact from fiction. I'm wondering if you understand the difference of the impact and resounding effect an actual event has on people as opposed to something they all recognize as made up and never had actually happened.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
I am not talking about amateur porn where two horny people film themselves and you know that. I am talking about commercial porn where the women are encouraged to get high to numb the pain. 
What's the problem? None apparently for you but stop trying to convince me that I should be okay with it.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I'll tell you the difference between a sexy novel vs. commercial porn....one are words on a page and the characters are fictional. The other? The stats are staggering as to how childhood sexual abuse and subsequent drug abuse fuels this industry.


Hmmm. Sounds pretty much like every other segment of the entertainment industry. Shall we ban *Glee*, then? Oh, please?

The people in commercial porn are performing for entertainment purposes. Some take drugs. Again, you can find that in just about any industry. And while I agree that our industry does seem to attract survivors of sexual abuse, many of these poor folks feel like their reclaiming part of their lost sexuality by their participation. Not all of them, of course. But enough so that I can see their efforts as positive, not negative.



Brennan said:


> These women continue to be abused, they are just getting paid. I have no idea what Ironwood's experience is with this industry but as I have mentioned before, I participated in a film 20 years ago. Out of 18 women, I was the only one who hadn't been sexually abused. Now tell me that you cannot see the difference between a woman high as a kite getting gang banged vs. Twilight.


I'm sure you had a lousy experience, and as such you didn't continue in the industry. And I'm sure that your one experience was sufficient to make a proper statistical sampling of the entire industry as a whole. Porn shoots are hard work, and it's not for everyone, no argument there. But I've had lousy experiences in many industries, which is why I left them and did something else. The people in my industry have made the conscious decision to remain because it is their choice to do so. No one is holding a gun to their head. Most industry veterans, believe it or not, are pretty passionate about sexuality and want to see it positively portrayed. 

And as for your comparison, yes, there is a difference. The gang bang movie might have artistic merit. </rimshot>



Brennan said:


> I think alot of women are smarter than men on this issue and they object to porn based on what I wrote. It seems men don't really care if the "performer" was raped at 12. Sad, really sad.



I think a lot of women are more poorly informed on this issue, as well as the issue of male sexuality in general. Only one in a hundred (give or take) actually takes an interest in the subject outside the minimum amount necessary to deal with her particular male. And to refute your point, yes, many of us do care. Believe it or not, women aren't the only ones who get sexually abused as children.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
I wish you well. I will leave you with this though....a few days ago you mentioned that you would prefer porn to your wife as she is boring and you staunchly defend porn, more so than any guy I have read on here. Could it be that your porn habits cloud your ability to see it for what it is? If you prefer it to your wife, well, that's sad but you don't seem to care about that aspect, just your inaliable male rights.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> I'd say you haven't made a compelling argument about how porn and erotic fiction books are dissimilar. Both are artistic media designed to elicit an erotic response. One has more pictures and more graphic sex. I'm far less concerned with your gender than your arguments.


Porn is designed to bring forth a sexual response - nothing more, nothing less. There is no wider story or depth of character in porn - sex is the main theme.

Erotic fiction tells a story of which sex is part of the whole (not the whole itself)....it stimulates both the body and the mind and arouses the imaginition on sensuous level rather than simply a sexual level.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

I think we've been discussing semantics here. The difference between the type of media that introduces that sexual stimulant or response or arousal is dictated by a basic difference between men and women.

For most men it's about a visual aspect. For most women it's about a mental aspect.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

surfergirl said:


> Porn is designed to bring forth a sexual response - nothing more, nothing less. There is no wider story or depth of character in porn - sex is the main theme.
> 
> Erotic fiction tells a story of which sex is part of the whole (not the whole itself)....it stimulates both the body and the mind and arouses the imaginition on sensuous level rather than simply a sexual level.


Isn't this the difference (generalized) in how men and women get aroused? Aren't characters in quite a lot of erotic fiction almost empty? They have enough personality to feel like a person, but not enough to stop you from putting yourself in their position. Look at the description you often have of characters: [color] hair, beautiful eyes, perfect posture, [character], tall, petite, [type] skin.

All these description say nothing about the characters, but enough to make you imagine your perfect person with the eyes you like, the body type you like, the height you like etc. The person you are supposed to identify with is often perfect, except for a (few) minor flaw, so you can relate to her/him.

I really don't think that most erotic novels are much better than porn. Ofcourse, novels that have erotic elements are different, but erotic stories are in no way sophisticated.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Ian, you leave me breathless in a bad way. Sigh.
> 
> I have gotten in depth about the porn industry and why it's doing more harm than good. I have experience as well and it does not echo yours at all. You are also not a woman so everything you learn about them is guesswork and based upon the women you are surrounding yourself with. Then couple that with their words only being as good as their honesty with them-self and with you.


Actually, I've got a minor in both psychology and women's studies, I've edited a feminist journal, I've spent over 80 hours observing marital counseling sessions, I've led panel discussions on women's sexuality, I've co-written a book (under another pseudonym . . . how I get around!) about successful male-female communications within a committed relationship, I'm a husband, son, and father of a little girl myself, and I've surrounded myself from childhood with strong, independent women who have never hesitated to let me know just what's on their mind. 

I mean, what would you accept as a reasonable credential for a man to "understand women"? Ovaries?



In my opinion, the porn industry IS doing harm to women . . . but not in the way you think. It's the other side of the see-saw of the sexual revolution.

Once upon a time, men and women entered into marriage contracts that were basically an exchange: sex for security. Man provided income and security for the woman and mutual offspring, while the marital preogative included the idea that a woman had a responsibility to sate her husband's sexual needs as part of her "wifely duty". Not saying it was right, but that's how it was. blame two thousand years of agriculturally based civilization for it.

Then the industrial revolution came along, and with it the sexual revolution. That didn't happen in the 1970s, as people think, but started way back in the 1800s. it only reached it's peak in the 1960s with the revolution involved with the birth control pill. Industrialization had already allowed women to earn an income independent of her husband, freeing her from the need for his security somewhat. With the advent of the birth control pill and a woman being in charge of her reproductive destiny, that pretty much severed the traditional agriculturally-inspired marriage contract. Wives were no longer utterly dependent upon men for their livelihoods, while men were still dependent upon their wives for sex. With that revolution and the rise of popular feminism (as opposed to literary or intellectual feminism) and the liberalization of divorce laws, women were bursting out of their domestic bubble with little need for men.

The result was predictable. The illusion of sexual freedom in the 1970s gave way to the right-wing backlash that led to the election of Reagan in the 1980s, and the subsequent conservative movement that had at its core the belief that feminism was "responsible for what's wrong with America". It was all BS, of course -- women had a right to reproductive freedom, marital freedom, and economic freedom -- those were not only basic human rights, but social necessities as we began to move out of the industrial age. Women had economic power and the ability to generate security on their own. Empowering, no?

But to men, there was a deep psychic wound about the repudiation of the basic social contract of marriage. No longer were women "expected" to give in to their husband's sexual desires at whim, because the male bargaining position had eroded dramatically. Suddenly the certainty of sex-in-marriage (about which there was already a lot of male trepidation) was gone, utterly. The security of the marital relationship was gone for men, and the incentives for marrying declined even as the over-all frustration with women in general rose. Financial independence meant women didn't need men for their living, reproductive independence meant that men couldn't be as certain of their wives' fidelity, and liberalization of sexual harassment laws and divorce laws meant that any strong push for the traditional sexual relationship in a marriage could end the entire relationship in a fortnight, case closed -- plus, she gets the kids.

That sounds great -- *if you're a woman*. Women had their cake and were eating it, too. Power mommies, career-and-family supermoms, strong independent women who chose to remain unmarried and were applauded for doing so. Sisterhood is powerful blah blah blah. 

But men got shafted, no pun intended. While women were enjoying unprecedented gains in personal income and financial security, not to mention a job market that favored them, men not only faced twice as much competition as they did in the all-male workforce, they also faced a strong decline in the number of male-dominated industries like manufacturing and raw materials. Service industries, better suited for women, became the dominant force in the economy. And as for sex, the frustration was palpable. There was no social contract any more. You played by women's rules or _you didn't play_. Period. Your needs and desires were unimportant. If you wanted the old style of marriage, you lapsed into conservatism and hoped you found one who didn't read too much. If you just wanted a meaningful relationship with lots of sex, then it was roll the dice and hope the cyclone of confusing signals about the emergent feminine sexuality didn't eat you alive. Your best bet? Get her drunk, tell her a bunch of crap and hope she beergoggled easily. 

Like it or not, men entered this century with a growing resentment towards women's sexuality and the confusing messages popular culture gave them. They lost all control of the situation with little hope in sight. Women had half the money and all the vaginas, and they just couldn't give us a straight answer about what was expected of us. What exactly did we have to bring to the table, now that we'd lost our best bargaining chip? Sensitivity? We saw what happened to those guys. Understanding? Yeah, the understanding guys got stepped on and ended up wracking up divorces. So guys just got a bad case of commitment-phobia and started marrying later.

And later.

And _later._

Women in the 90s were in a tizzy: _"Where have all the good men gone?"_ they bemoaned, not realizing that they had pretty much wiped them out of existence themselves. The signs were clear: the confusion of men in the new age was the stuff of headlines. The Men's Movement began in earnest as men tried to re-define themselves, and in the process men started realizing the problems with the old social contract/new social contract, and how they didn't really fit any more. Female sexual empowerment gave way to the ugly reality of going into old age and dying alone, and possibly childless. Women started to soften their positions, just a bit. But culturally speaking, it was already too late.

Then came the VHS tape, and the porn revolution. Then the DVD, the internet, and suddenly there's 24 hour a day porn on tap in every house in America. 

Suddenly, instead of being at the mercy of one woman for sex, or having to invest the time energy and money involved in finding, meeting, attracting and courting a mistress in secret, you had sex on demand. As much as you wanted. Any flavor or variety. Prostitution enjoyed a resurgence, thanks to the anonymity and safety provided by the internet, and the whole issue of "stranger danger", Craig's List anonymous hookups became an entire subculture. Your wife isn't putting out? There's a frustrated woman just on the other side of town in the same boat as you -- and you can slip off on your lunch hour and no one will ever know. Heck, a little on-line flirting and you don't even need to buy her dinner or ask for her name. And if that doesn't work out, well, you got yourself all worked up and there's always more porn. Why the heck would you want the baggage and expense of a mediocre relationship when you know you can hook up with a complete stranger, get your cookies, grab a burger, and head home for an all-night World of Warcraft marathon?

And that's where we stand today: Women are financially empowered, enjoy full reproductive control, live longer, and have greater security and standard of living than at any time in history. Men are licking their wounds about their lost prominence by escaping through easy sex and video games and action movies and televised Texas Hold'em and fantasy football . . . because no one really seems to care what we do, anyway. 

Our opinions as men are usually suspect by women, our sexuality is totally misunderstood and purposefully manipulated against us, and we're an easy-to-hit target for virtually all of the world's ills. Our ambitions mean nothing, our feelings don't matter, and we're always going to be guilty no matter what we do. Look at popular sitcoms and it becomes all too apparent of how American popular culture treats men. Just look at the outstanding representations of husbands and fathers in the popular media: Homer Simpson (idiot), Peter Griffin (literally retarded), and the list goes on and on. Even the well respected fictional dads like Cosby or . . . well, I can't think of another well-respected TV Dad, but Cosby almost always was the butt of the joke. American married men are treated by popular culture as fumbling, stupid, egotistical wrecks who couldn't tie their shoes without their wise-cracking, wise wife/daughter for help. It's so prevalent in our culture that our parodies and satires pick up on it and we do it in casual conversation almost automatically. As a gender that's left us more than a little bitter and resentful. But when it's just you and the computer, or the TV screen, then you don't have to put up with judgements, expectations, disappointments, rejections, vulnerabilities, sensitivities, or any of the other fitness testing crap women want us to have to deal with for the privilege of sleeping with them. 

Heck, some of us are starting to actually stick up for ourselves. I've got single male friends who are happy to eschew porn at home for the chance to pick up any of the thousands of desperately lonely career women who live in my town. Their standards are high -- one of them doesn't give a second date unless there's sex on the first -- but they're enjoying being a highly marketable commodity in this society, a single, attractive male with a career. And they are working it hard core, to the point where they're leaving a trail of broken hearts behind them. But they can get away with it because the real "nice guys", the ones that the women tend to prefer as husbands, are so scared of the sexual cyclone out there that they'd rather just avoid the whole mess and stay home and whack off.

So as a society, we're picking up our toys and going home. Individual experiences aside, that's what's happening to us as a culture. Men are withdrawing from the social contract unilaterally, because their feelings are hurt and they don't see much benefit in making themselves that vulnerable. We'll keep marrying less and later. We'll be more prone to leaving our spouses for greener pastures. We've been economically and socially marginalized -- so why bother getting married at all? The social advantages to it are gone, and it's a lot of hard work for the promise of ephemeral reward.

Porn is a great thing for men, then, because it allows us to fulfill our sexual needs without dealing intimately with women. Porn is not such a good thing for women, at least not if they want to get married -- and then, once in a marriage, porn forces higher sexual expectations on them, as things like oral and anal which were once rare in marital sex are now completely standard expectations and things like BDSM and other kinks are at least on the table, not to mention the admitted allure of younger, prettier women. That's a hard thing to face, but think of it this way: you have economic and reproductive security and easy access to divorce, if wanted; isn't that worth the small price of higher sexual expectations (and greater sexual competition)?

Unless women, as a class, can find some compelling way to take our feelings into account and include us in the sexual equation in a way that's neither humiliating or controlling, that's how it's going to be.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> I will just call Uncle on this. If somebody can take the mental leap and say "atm" is the same as Twilight, well I am with you. Breathless and not in a good way. I agree, get out a bit. See the neighborhood.


Heh. I'm a cub scout leader and took my daughter to her cookie rally this weekend. I'm helping a girl in my "church" through the death of her mother. I've got the Ruritan Pancake Breakfast to cook for this weekend, and then on Sunday I go raise money for HfH. 

How much more out can I get?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> I wish you well. I will leave you with this though....a few days ago you mentioned that you would prefer porn to your wife as she is boring and you staunchly defend porn, more so than any guy I have read on here. Could it be that your porn habits cloud your ability to see it for what it is? If you prefer it to your wife, well, that's sad but you don't seem to care about that aspect, just your inaliable male rights.


You mis-read me. I don't prefer porn to my wife at all, when she's at her best. But if she's tired or otherwise not feeling well when I'm randy, then porn is a great alternative to me making her feel like hell for not being intimate with me. 

Also, sure, my marital sex life is boring from an objective perspective. But not from a subjective perspective. When one has written two novels and three anthologies of erotica . . . well, let's just say I have the whole erotic imagination thing covered. In spades.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Long, thoughtful thread that I appreciated reading even if I disagree with it and I will explain why I disagree with it but it's chaos time around here so I'll get back to you later.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
I like you even if I disagree with you. We all have our own backgrounds and from that our opinions are molded. You and I just have differing opinion surrounding this subject.
Cub Scouts, eh? Ian Ironwood would be a fantastic name for a Derby car!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Cub Scouts, eh? Ian Ironwood would be a fantastic name for a Derby car!


HA!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> HA!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you know about the Derby!? Bragging rights here....5 years district (largest in the country) Champion with oldest son, 5 years with youngest. Sons and I built the car ourselves. We never changed the formula and won every single year. Hubbie is good in the "shop" but nothing like I am with power tools, something my Father taught me years ago.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

A girl who know how to use her tools, mmm... 

I dabbled in derby but I was a fail. From what I recall, there is only so much you could do to improve performance. You had to use the parts they gave you and you had weight restrictions. You basically could only change the shape of the "wood.". What's your secret?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> A girl who know how to use her tools, mmm...
> 
> I dabbled in derby but I was a fail. From what I recall, there is only so much you could do to improve performance. You had to use the parts they gave you and you had weight restrictions. You basically could only change the shape of the "wood.". What's your secret?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is plenty you can do to improve!! You are given a block of pine wood. Cut it down to a race car, remove most of the wood and fill the last middle to back end with lead. Spin the wheels with graphite until they spin for 3 minutes. Pine Derby is up at a severe angle. The force of what I designed is what made it come in first.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Yes, Glamour magazine is smut.

Fox News is Political Pornography.

And HGTV is pornography for women also. You guys ever look at yourselves when HGTV is on. . .your panting just like guys watching a porn flick.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Iron: Great credentials. You’ve killed the big boner image I had of you which is a good thing, I assure you. My own credentials not so amazing, but I have a lot of hands on work with organizations that work to end sexual/mental/emotional abuse of the sex industries and this includes the porn industry and because of this I’ve seen firsthand the damage it can do to women.

This is not going to sound feminist because it’s not but I see women as more vulnerable than men because of their emotional makeup and confusing struggle between wanting to please men and remain autonomous as well as the flat out reality that men are typically physically stronger than women. You mentioned male sexual abuse in a previous post and it certainly does exist and carries its own stigma’s and horrors. I would NEVER advocate for it and fully believe and advocate for better treatment for boys/men who have been sexually abused as it is under reported and carries a larger stigma. 

The problem is, one in every six women has been the victim of attempted or completed rape whereas 1 in 33 men will be the victim of attempted or completed rape. This stat is from National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control & Prevention. 

It’s also been shown that victims of sexual abuse are more likely to lean towards the sex industry and for many, logical reasons in Shelley Lubben’s book “The Truth Behind the Fantasy of Porn” she quotes Mary Anne Layden, Ph. D., Director for Women's Psychological Health in Philadelphia below:

“Most strippers, as with other women who work in the sex industry, are adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Research indicates the number is between 60%-80%. One study found that 35% of strippers have Multiple Personality Disorder, 55% had Borderline Personality Disorder, and 60% had Major Depressive Episodes, These are severe psychiatric problems and many of them are connected to childhood sexual abuse. These are women who when they were little girls would get into their beds each night and roll themselves into a fetal position and every night he would come in and peel her open. The physical and visual invasion of little girl's bodies damages them psychologically and gives them a psychologically unhealthy view of sexuality. Often as adults they reenact their childhood trauma by working as strippers, Playboy models, and prostitutes. The men who, now as customers, physically and visually invade the adult women's bodies, reenact the role of the perpetrator. These women work in the sex industry because it feels like home.”

I find the argument that sex is a need for men and women/wives should expect that if they’re not putting out that a man will have a right to view porn ridiculous and 100% selfish. It’s a horrible cycle and I do not believe the needs of men, when they are fully capable of masturbating and using text outlets that do not have real actresses who we can prove are statistically vulnerable to this type of abuse, are justified in this quest for sexual gratification. The idea that it’s all made OK because a man has a need and the woman in the porn video is consenting is absurd if you look below the surface. 

Recognize that approximately 95% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused. (Just Wow)
Source: CCPCA, 1992.

I have worked one on one at GEMS in NYC and I’ve seen firsthand the indoctrination into the industry and how hard these girls struggle to get out. The idea that you can have sex with or watch a woman having sex that is in such a horrible place and has already suffered so much simply because you feel that your wife or girlfriend doesn’t put out enough and has too much autonomy, FLOORS ME. Many of the girls I worked with were in and out of all the various outlets in the sex industry including stripping, porn and prostitution.

Is prostitution and the objectification of women as old as time itself? Absolutely. Is a man’s need to have sex a justification for the recurring abuse to a women’s body when we are fully informed that is most likely the case?—NO!

Also, your argument is very flawed. The feminization of men is not what prompted men not being able to get the sex they want which is why prostitution is the oldest profession in history. Porn is also an old industry, it has just become more in your face, detailed and available today. Even if men had completely passive wives or partners; a man’s desires and feeling of entitlement to a woman’s body has wandered and for so many different reasons.

In regards to understanding of women, I will admit many women don’t even understand themselves and there are many times we are our own worst enemy. Still, until you know what it’s like to be so emotional that Hallmark commercials make you cry and bleed for 5 days a month without dying from the time you were about 12, I do believe it’s hard to get a true empathetic view on what it’s like to be a woman. 

Just as women can’t assess or empathize the depth of meaning and urgency sex has to a man, men can’t assess or empathize with the intensity and complexity involved in being a woman. You have children so you’ve witnessed childbirth but it was not your vagina that had stitches or hard boobs afterwards, whose emotions flew from up and down to the point where it was hard to recognize the core of who you were for a little while or who bled for 6 weeks afterwards while struggling with the barrage of child care information out there and worried that almost every choice you made might end up terribly wrong and lead to the destruction of what you suddenly loved most in the world. This, too, is based off of basic biological experience (as you cite evolution heavily in your post) and unlike behavior and response to stimuli which can change and does indeed change throughout history; this basic biological difference will always remain and is at the crux of most relationship issues. Both sexes feel out of sync and misunderstood. There are better ways to get to better places.

I fully support erotica in text because I recognize that no real person is involved. I’ve already said this on repeat but it’s not getting through. There is a difference between exploring our own sexual desires and responses and exploiting the sexuality of someone else to do so.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

trenton said:


> iron: Great credentials. You’ve killed the big boner image i had of you which is a good thing, i assure you. My own credentials not so amazing, but i have a lot of hands on work with organizations that work to end sexual/mental/emotional abuse of the sex industries and this includes the porn industry and because of this i’ve seen firsthand the damage it can do to women.
> 
> This is not going to sound feminist because it’s not but i see women as more vulnerable than men because of their emotional makeup and confusing struggle between wanting to please men and remain autonomous as well as the flat out reality that men are typically physically stronger than women. You mentioned male sexual abuse in a previous post and it certainly does exist and carries its own stigma’s and horrors. I would never advocate for it and fully believe and advocate for better treatment for boys/men who have been sexually abused as it is under reported and carries a larger stigma.
> 
> ...


this!!!!!!!!!!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> There is plenty you can do to improve!! You are given a block of pine wood. Cut it down to a race car, remove most of the wood and fill the last middle to back end with lead. Spin the wheels with graphite until they spin for 3 minutes. Pine Derby is up at a severe angle. The force of what I designed is what made it come in first.


We usually skip the faster, faster! styles and shoot for Most Original. This year my tiger won 1st in his den, but didn't place in district (A hand-carved DNA molecule car? REALLY?) and my WEB2 got third in Most Original. We play to our strengths.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Dayum Ian, you either can write down your thoughts very quickly or you have a lot of time


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Iron: Great credentials. You’ve killed the big boner image I had of you which is a good thing, I assure you. My own credentials not so amazing, but I have a lot of hands on work with organizations that work to end sexual/mental/emotional abuse of the sex industries and this includes the porn industry and because of this I’ve seen firsthand the damage it can do to women.


All right. Then I will rebut..



Trenton said:


> This is not going to sound feminist because it’s not but I see women as more vulnerable than men because of their emotional makeup and confusing struggle between wanting to please men and remain autonomous as well as the flat out reality that men are typically physically stronger than women. You mentioned male sexual abuse in a previous post and it certainly does exist and carries its own stigma’s and horrors. I would NEVER advocate for it and fully believe and advocate for better treatment for boys/men who have been sexually abused as it is under reported and carries a larger stigma.
> 
> The problem is, one in every six women has been the victim of attempted or completed rape whereas 1 in 33 men will be the victim of attempted or completed rape. This stat is from National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control & Prevention.


Date of report? Also, male sexual abuse is considered by most authorities to be under-reported by 90%. I'll let you do the math, but I think you'll find the problem a lot more prevalent than those statistics. And since those statistics usually take male abuse by males, not male abuse by females, into account, I'd love to see their data.



Trenton said:


> It’s also been shown that victims of sexual abuse are more likely to lean towards the sex industry and for many, logical reasons in Shelley Lubben’s book “The Truth Behind the Fantasy of Porn” she quotes Mary Anne Layden, Ph. D., Director for Women's Psychological Health in Philadelphia below:
> 
> “Most strippers, as with other women who work in the sex industry, are adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Research indicates the number is between 60%-80%. One study found that 35% of strippers have Multiple Personality Disorder, 55% had Borderline Personality Disorder, and 60% had Major Depressive Episodes, These are severe psychiatric problems and many of them are connected to childhood sexual abuse. These are women who when they were little girls would get into their beds each night and roll themselves into a fetal position and every night he would come in and peel her open. The physical and visual invasion of little girl's bodies damages them psychologically and gives them a psychologically unhealthy view of sexuality. Often as adults they reenact their childhood trauma by working as strippers, Playboy models, and prostitutes. The men who, now as customers, physically and visually invade the adult women's bodies, reenact the role of the perpetrator. These women work in the sex industry because it feels like home.”


That's one interpretation. I think you'll find that the vast majority of childhood sexual abuse survivors do not get into the adult industry in any way. The two are not correlates. For example, the majority -- say 70% or more -- of female professional porn performers, that is, women who make the majority of their income from performing in adult movies, were cheerleaders in high school. Does that mean that becoming a cheerleader in high school increases your risk of becoming a female porn performer? The number of childhood sexual abuse survivors in the industry is well known, among both males and females. As a matter of fact, that's one reason that so many pros in the industry are so adamantly against child porn and childhood sexual exploitation _in any way,_ because they were survivors and have used their tenure in the adult industry as a means of reclaiming their lost sexuality. Indeed, many of the performers are parents themselves, and see their work as a way of establishing important sexual boundaries between legitimate adult entertainment and illicit child abuse. 



Trenton said:


> I find the argument that sex is a need for men and women/wives should expect that if they’re not putting out that a man will have a right to view porn ridiculous and 100% selfish.


Explain the logic behind that conclusion, since you don't posses the gonads in question. I mean, a man can find a woman's need to spend one week out of a month obsessing about her moods, her bloating, and her other hormonal issues ridiculous and 100% selfish with equal validity. If nothing else, it demonstrates a lack of understanding about male sexual psychology. But, continue...



Trenton said:


> It’s a horrible cycle and I do not believe the needs of men, when they are fully capable of masturbating and using text outlets that do not have real actresses who we can prove are statistically vulnerable to this type of abuse, are justified in this quest for sexual gratification. The idea that it’s all made OK because a man has a need and the woman in the porn video is consenting is absurd if you look below the surface.


So, my wife and I make a porn video for our pleasure. I'm exploiting her, right?

And then we swap the video with like-minded couples for our mutual pleasure, all the men are exploiting all the women, right?

Considering that arguably (complete statistics are unavailable on the subject due to the constantly changing nature of the internet) well over 70% of the porn on-line is "amateur homegrown" made by freely consenting adults . . . that seems to poke holes in your argument. Are all of the women in such videos victims of sexual abuse? Are they all porn performers? Then your initial statistics are off.



Trenton said:


> Recognize that approximately 95% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused. (Just Wow)
> Source: CCPCA, 1992.


Well, duh. Teens that remain virgins or weren't sexually active in high school (where a large number of acquaintance-rapes take place, due to the vulnerable nature of the girls) rarely become prostitutes. Prostitution is a far different thing than porn. No, really. I'm actually in favor of legalized, regulated, and legitimately protected prostitution, but the current model we're working with is abysmal for everyone involved. But that doesn't have much to do with porn, per se. They're two different (if occasionally overlapping) sides of the sex industry. Support for porn does not imply support for sex slavery.



Trenton said:


> I have worked one on one at GEMS in NYC and I’ve seen firsthand the indoctrination into the industry and how hard these girls struggle to get out. The idea that you can have sex with or watch a woman having sex that is in such a horrible place and has already suffered so much simply because you feel that your wife or girlfriend doesn’t put out enough and has too much autonomy, FLOORS ME. Many of the girls I worked with were in and out of all the various outlets in the sex industry including stripping, porn and prostitution.


Your imposing your own value judgement and morality on a subject that enjoys a wide variety of cultural and class perceptions, based on the experiences of admitted victims. This has the same intellectual validity as the American Psychiatric Association listing homosexuality as a mental illness because those patients who reported to a psychiatrist for treatment about other issues and happened to be gay had their sexual orientation added to their diagnosis despite the fact that it wasn't a problem. The situation only was rectified when a brave young researcher realized that there were perfectly mentally healthy homosexuals in society that didn't seek treatment for other mental health issues, _ergo_ homosexuality was not in and of itself a mental disorder. In this case, you spoke to those who were victimized by part of the industry -- and yes, it happens, and happens a lot -- without taking enough of a sample of the industry as a whole to gauge the problem in perspective. That's like trying to determine the state of the American automotive industry by walking through a junkyard -- you're looking at the problems, not the successes. The problems are bad, and should be fought, but they should be fought by regulation and enforcement.



Trenton said:


> Is prostitution and the objectification of women as old as time itself? Absolutely. Is a man’s need to have sex a justification for the recurring abuse to a women’s body when we are fully informed that is most likely the case?—NO!


I agree with both statements. No man should abuse an unwilling woman's body. Ever. That's why we have all those "consensual adult" laws.



Trenton said:


> Also, your argument is very flawed. The feminization of men is not what prompted men not being able to get the sex they want which is why prostitution is the oldest profession in history.


My argument was not that the "feminization of men" -- your term -- prompts men to seek prostitution and porn. My argument is that in the aftermath of the social chaos caused by industrialization and the sexual revolution, which fundamentally shifted the economy and society of the world from an agriculturally-dominated system of extended family and a strict sex-for-security agreement within the social contract to an industrial model of the nuclear family to the transition to the post-industrial civilization we have now, that the social position of men relative to women in the absence of a new social contract lead to imbalances that porn and casual sex are now -- inadequately -- balancing out. For 5000 years (or ever since the agricultural revolution) there has been a dominant marriage pattern tied to a social contract between men and women concerning sex and security. That contract has been shattered. Until it's re-negotiated, you're going to be eyeballs deep in porn, because men aren't going to stop being men, and men's primary motivation for pretty much anything is the promise of sex. THAT'S my argument.



Trenton said:


> Porn is also an old industry, it has just become more in your face, detailed and available today. Even if men had completely passive wives or partners; a man’s desires and feeling of entitlement to a woman’s body has wandered and for so many different reasons.


Which is exactly why we're in the present quandary. Sure, men are no longer "entitled" to the bodies of their wives, as they were under the old social contract. So our society is evolving alternatives that, unfortunately, do not give much incentive to marry and reproduce, and actually provide powerful disincentives from the male perspective to do so. 

If you'd like to see a snap-shot of what happens when that progress comes to maturity, check out Japan. They're in a thoroughly post-industrial economy, women have full financial and reproductive rights, access to health care and equal participation in public life, and one of the highest standards of living in the world. So you'd think that it would be chock-full of reasonably happy men and women in fulfilling relationships, right?

Not even close. Marriage rates are down by 30% from two decades ago. Birthrates are down just as dramatically. Japanese men would rather pay for the services of a prostitute or masturbate than try to cater to the famously demanding Japanese wife of this day and age. A large subculture of men remain virgins well into their 30s because they don't see the point of marriage. Suicide rates are up across the board, but alarmingly up among Japanese teenage males who just don't see any hope for a future in a society where his potential wife will likely out-earn him by 20% in the tech sector, and then ask him to work 50-80 hours a week to support her while she makes a "traditional" home that he never sees. The crisis is so big that the government has come down hard on Tenga, the most popular male masturbation toy whose Japanese tagline at one point was "Replace your girlfriend forever!".

And that's WITH legalized, well-regulated prostitution. Imagine if you had that hormonal powderkeg without that outlet?

The problem isn't porn OR the sex industry. The problem is the broken social contract.



Trenton said:


> In regards to understanding of women, I will admit many women don’t even understand themselves and there are many times we are our own worst enemy. Still, until you know what it’s like to be so emotional that Hallmark commercials make you cry and bleed for 5 days a month without dying from the time you were about 12, I do believe it’s hard to get a true empathetic view on what it’s like to be a woman.
> 
> Just as women can’t assess or empathize the depth of meaning and urgency sex has to a man, men can’t assess or empathize with the intensity and complexity involved in being a woman. You have children so you’ve witnessed childbirth but it was not your vagina that had stitches or hard boobs afterwards, whose emotions flew from up and down to the point where it was hard to recognize the core of who you were for a little while or who bled for 6 weeks afterwards while struggling with the barrage of child care information out there and worried that almost every choice you made might end up terribly wrong and lead to the destruction of what you suddenly loved most in the world. This, too, is based off of basic biological experience (as you cite evolution heavily in your post) and unlike behavior and response to stimuli which can change and does indeed change throughout history; this basic biological difference will always remain and is at the crux of most relationship issues. Both sexes feel out of sync and misunderstood. There are better ways to get to better places.


Agreed. But the way we are proceeding as a society isn't working. The prominence of women and women's issues has had the unfortunate side-effect of marginalizing men's issues and even the willingness to consider them seriously. For example, as you diminish my own experience of becoming a parent by elevating the experience of my wife over mine in your above example, you also seem to dismiss or diminish any anxiety or worry I might have had while I faced the prospect of losing my wife in childbirth and seeing my firstborn on a ventilator for 7 days, what I felt like while I had to take care of my wife's bleeding vagina AND the baby's diapers and laundry AND deal with the avalanche of insurance paperwork AND hold down and continue to work a full-time job. I might not know what it's like to be a woman, but I know what it's like to be a parent, and that dismissal from consideration of the male perspective on such issues is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I'm talking about when I discuss the disconnect in the current male/female social contract.




Trenton said:


> I fully support erotica in text because I recognize that no real person is involved. I’ve already said this on repeat but it’s not getting through. There is a difference between exploring our own sexual desires and responses and exploiting the sexuality of someone else to do so.


Again, what about the mountain of amateur porn on the internet? Are you against that, as well, or only professional porn?

But let's take a look at your last statement, and see if your compassion and concern extend equally to other areas.

I'm assuming (and admitting to making the assumption -- I could be wrong) that you wear clothes. More than likely you do, and further more than likely you are not Amish and don't stitch them all by hand. In fact, statistically speaking you probably bought them at a retail outlet, perhaps a Wal-Mart, Target, or someplace even more up-scale. Statistically speaking you're likely to do this often, and perhaps might even add shoes to your shopping trips. No doubt you enjoy the wide variety of styles and selections, not to mention fashionability of the garments you purchase. No harm done, right? Pretty clothes, pretty shoes, they make you feel pretty. And if you get them on sale, so much the better! In fact, you may have more than one or two pairs of shoes -- some women have as many as three or four. You don't really need all those shoes -- you'd figure two pairs would be adequate for keeping your feet warm and dry in just about any situation -- but for some reason, say, style and fashion, you have many, many more pairs of shoes than you need.

It's all perfectly harmless, right? You pay the money, the store gets the money, end of story. You get what you need, they get paid, everyone's happy. Every woman does it, right? What's the harm?

But lets examine the seamy underbelly of the Fashion Industry and take a good, hard look at what's involved. 

First, do you realize that virtually every item of clothing you have in your closet was made by dramatically underpaid labor -- mostly women and children -- working in _appalling_ conditions in sweat shops all over Latin America and Southeast Asia? Places where losing a finger means getting docked a day's pay for holding up production? Places where 18 hour days for piecework (at pennies per piece) are the norm? Places where children as young as 8 or 9 are employed running machines without adequate safeguards, where one clumsy slip means an injury, little or no medical care, and immediate termination? Places without adequate ventilation, water, sanitary facilities, or even lighting, employing children and women . . . and all for _you._ 

Did you know that in these giant factories that make you clothes and shoes, the young girls who are stitching them together for you are getting raped and sexually abused as a matter of course -- in some cases so horrifically that prostitution, as nasty as it is in such places, is seen as a much better job? How many childhood sexual abuse victims -- who are still children -- stitched up the shoes you wore today? How many rapes occurred in the factory that made that jacket you got on sale at Target for just $7.89? 

It's not guys who drive the fashion industry, it's women. From the models who torture themselves to the underpaid clerks who sell it to you to the fashion merchandisers who are constantly on the lookout for the new, the trendy, the hip -- more clothes, more shoes, more profit margin -- the fashion and textiles industry, which employs hundreds of millions around the world, is driven by the demands of the female market almost exclusively. Even in male clothing, the decisions, the work, and the sales are done by women. The average American man goes shopping for clothes 3.8 times a year -- about half that for straight men -- and gets by with an average of 2.1 pairs of shoes. Our inattention to female clothing styles is legendary. 

So you can see why I'm not going to shrink up and die because you're throwing around some tragic stories of abuse and exploitation and blaming men. The same is true for women and the fashion and textile industry, only instead of a few millions of "victims" there are hundreds of millions -- entire nations of victims. If America stopped ordering cheap clothes from Bangladesh so our women feel pretty and fashionable (and almost exclusively for the benefit of other women) then the entire national economy would be in danger of collapsing . . . and 1.2 million child laborers wouldn't have to worry about going into their teen years missing fingers, getting raped by their supervisors and co-workers, and having their labor exploited. In some places like the US Trust Territories in the South Pacific factories are virtual slave camps where workers are sent from every squalid and poor island to suffer tortuous abuse and exploitation . . . just because women can't control their desires for new clothes and shoes constantly.

Exploitation is exploitation. Sex doesn't enter into it. I'm against exploitation, but the vast majority of available porn is created non-exploitatively. You can't say that about the vast majority of the clothes in your closet.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Uh, is that a response or a Master's thesis? 
Like I said, we can agree to disagree. I do think you pointed out something interesting though. Porn and Prostitution and how men use these as some sort of backlash against feminism/women. I have said it here time and time again, the allure of a prostitute is to be able to degrade her. Do things with her you wouldn't with somebody you care about. The motivation behind it is sex (sure) but dominance and degredation second. Men are so scared of feminism/women that they need to rent one to dominate. Sad state of affairs.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Uh, is that a response or a Master's thesis?
> Like I said, we can agree to disagree. I do think you pointed out something interesting though. Porn and Prostitution and how men use these as some sort of backlash against feminism/women. I have said it here time and time again, the allure of a prostitute is to be able to degrade her. Do things with her you wouldn't with somebody you care about. The motivation behind it is sex (sure) but dominance and degredation second. Men are so scared of feminism/women that they need to rent one to dominate. Sad state of affairs.


"You don't pay a prostitute for sex. You pay a prostitute to leave after sex." 

-- Charlie Sheen


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hey Trenton, you may have mentioned this but how do you feel about amateur porn? That is, porn filmed by two consenting real couples that have an exhibitionist kink?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> "You don't pay a prostitute for sex. You pay a prostitute to leave after sex."
> 
> -- Charlie Sheen


In his situation that is true. For most guys, the women aren't begging to hang around afterwards. 
I still stand by what I said. Part of the attraction is dominance and degredation. Commercial porn is in that same category.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Hey Ian, can you please cite references so I can look it up. I'm sure in your years of study you learned it's crucial to any piece of writing having credit. For example, please show me where the statistical data is to back up that 90% of all sexually abused boys don't report. I'd also like to see the statistic proof about cheerleaders.

I disagree with most of what you said above but you can go back to much of my first post to figure out why. I also think you are a great writer but not so great with separating fact from fiction.

In regards to amateur porn, I don't really have a stance because I haven't viewed it or learned anything about it. From an ignorant standpoint, I don't see anything wrong with it. My husband and I videotape one another and watch it a lot but neither one of us would want to share it or have to watch other couples...that's us. No need. In my opinion, the more intimacy you place in a relationship the larger the intimacy. If you break it up, you break it up. Simple.

To your comment about clothing...you ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT 100% that we should stand up to such policies and demand as consumers that fair trade be implemented. Oh so many amazing issues packed into that one issue and I could go on for days about it. You absolutely can find resources to purchase Fair Trade clothing that are still affordable and not made by underpaid men and women/children. It's interesting but you actually picked an issue that is very dear to me.

Now, I do believe we are all hypocrites doing the best we can but once we investigate and understand the truth of any issue, I believe we do have an obligation to do something. For example, do you think I wear a diamond ring? 

Noooooezzz I don't. I became informed of the blood diamond practices and how easily you could be given one by mistake even with certification and my husband recently had a beautiful amber wedding ring made for me. The entire practice can be stopped if wealthy citizens of the world woke up and said diamonds weren't forever and the bestest thing on Earth. A simple change in public awareness and image could end the brutal en-slavery and murder of workers that mine for diamonds. Why does this not happen? Because too many people are willing to look the other way even if armed with information. IT DRIVES ME INSANE!

One of my favorite brands, Forever 21, was outed for taking advantage of immigrant laborers in Cali, mostly women. There was a documentary on it and I stopped shopping there immediately but after enough awareness was raised, the owner of Forever 21 relented and changed the pay, work hours and environment of the factory he had both legal and illegal immigrants working in.

My point here is that it is important and we have an obligation to keep aware and educated and take actions that elicit positive changes. It's also VERY POSSIBLE and happens everyday.

It's not that I'm perfect, I'm absolutely not. I've purchased clothes from Wal-Mart and I have watched pro porn in the past and it really does work to get you off, no doubt.

What it comes down to:

What is better here? Watching porn to get off because your wife won't give you what you want sexually knowing full well the there's a 60-80% chance risk that the woman you're watching had her legs spread open by her own father for his pleasure? -or- 
working together with women to improve relationships, make sure both sexes get what they want and marriages are happier?

Saying to your wife, hey biatch I'm watching porn because you don't want to put out and my **** has needs, isn't going to evoke compassion and a willingness to change. In fact, it very well could lead to the beginning of the end of the relationship. Learning to communicate with her and incorporating her own needs with your needs to find a balance between the two of you is your best bet anyway.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

hubby said:


> Hey Trenton, you may have mentioned this but how do you feel about amateur porn? That is, porn filmed by two consenting real couples that have an exhibitionist kink?


"In regards to amateur porn, I don't really have a stance because I haven't viewed it or learned anything about it. From an ignorant standpoint, I don't see anything wrong with it. My husband and I videotape one another and watch it a lot but neither one of us would want to share it or have to watch other couples...that's us. No need. In my opinion, the more intimacy you place in a relationship the larger the intimacy. If you break it up, you break it up. Simple."


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> "In regards to amateur porn, I don't really have a stance because I haven't viewed it or learned anything about it. From an ignorant standpoint, I don't see anything wrong with it. My husband and I videotape one another and watch it a lot but neither one of us would want to share it or have to watch other couples...that's us. No need. In my opinion, the more intimacy you place in a relationship the larger the intimacy. If you break it up, you break it up. Simple."


If I could only talk my wife into bringing out the camera...oh the possibilities.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Hey Ian, can you please cite references so I can look it up. I'm sure in your years of study you learned it's crucial to any piece of writing having credit. For example, please show me where the statistical data is to back up that 90% of all sexually abused boys don't report. I'd also like to see the statistic proof about cheerleaders.
> 
> I disagree with most of what you said above but you can go back to much of my first post to figure out why. I also think you are a great writer but not so great with separating fact from fiction.
> 
> ...


Will you marry me? The world would be a better place if you were cloned. 
I vote for working together to improve relationships, whose with me?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Most likely she's hesitant because she's afraid of what she'll look like on video or feels she's not attractive enough. Another downside to pro porn is that it creates expectations that are unrealistic and really stupid but many women don't understand this, all they see is that they will never compare. It actually works against men. If you think watching porn is going to get your wife to figure out you have sex needs and wish she'd fill them, you're sending the exact opposite message. She doesn't want to hear this either..."I don't expect you to be perfect like these girls, I know it's a career for them." LOL

Anyway, I don't know where your wife and you are at sexually but if you brought your wife on, I'd be happy to talk to her.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Will you marry me? The world would be a better place if you were cloned.
> I vote for working together to improve relationships, whose with me?


I think that's Illegal (another issue hahaha).

I'm absolutely with you!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Anyway, I don't know where your wife and you are at sexually but if you brought your wife on, I'd be happy to talk to her.


I am pretty sure my wife knows I post on the forum and she probably reads through a few threads. Especially since this is a thread I started.

Let's see if she chimes in


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Most likely she's hesitant because she's afraid of what she'll look like on video or feels she's not attractive enough. Another downside to pro porn is that it creates expectations that are unrealistic and really stupid but many women don't understand this, all they see is that they will never compare. It actually works against men. If you think watching porn is going to get your wife to figure out you have sex needs and wish she'd fill them, you're sending the exact opposite message. She doesn't want to hear this either..."I don't expect you to be perfect like these girls, I know it's a career for them." LOL
> 
> Anyway, I don't know where your wife and you are at sexually but if you brought your wife on, I'd be happy to talk to her.


I agree 100%. Men don't get that though but they come here and complain that their wives won't touch them. Uh, maybe it's because you make her feel like she can never measure up?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> "You don't pay a prostitute for sex. You pay a prostitute to leave after sex."
> 
> -- Charlie Sheen


It is a very disrespectful attitude some men have towards women. 

I am sure those prostitutes are happy to take the money and leave. 

Treat people with dignity, it shows that you respect yourself!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> It is a very disrespectful attitude some men have towards women.
> 
> I am sure those prostitutes are happy to take the money and leave.
> 
> Treat people with dignity, it shows that you respect yourself!


Awe GP, don't you just know that these prostitutes are begging to stay and swoon over some sweaty, overweight, entitled fat man? :rofl:


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Awe GP, don't you just know that these prostitutes are begging to stay and swoon over some sweaty, overweight, entitled fat man? :rofl:


I don't know about their mind. 

But I respect them. At least their money is honest, better than those crooked politicians and businessmen. 

My husband and I went to a strip club in Vancouver, I love the show that female strip dancer performed, her body, her movement, her smile, her skill, just amazes me. I have high respect for her, she is striving to be top of her profession. I tipped her quite willingly and happily. If I were in Vancouver, I would visit that club more often just to watch her show. I didn't have anything dirty in my mind. 

In Chinese history, there were those high class prostitutes, men had to try very hard so they could visit them. I adore them for having this kind of charm. Normally they were combination of beauty, knowledge, and talent!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Hey Ian, can you please cite references so I can look it up. I'm sure in your years of study you learned it's crucial to any piece of writing having credit. For example, please show me where the statistical data is to back up that 90% of all sexually abused boys don't report. I'd also like to see the statistic proof about cheerleaders.
> 
> I disagree with most of what you said above but you can go back to much of my first post to figure out why. I also think you are a great writer but not so great with separating fact from fiction.
> 
> In regards to amateur porn, I don't really have a stance because I haven't viewed it or learned anything about it. From an ignorant standpoint, I don't see anything wrong with it. My husband and I videotape one another and watch it a lot but neither one of us would want to share it or have to watch other couples...that's us. No need. In my opinion, the more intimacy you place in a relationship the larger the intimacy. If you break it up, you break it up. Simple.


As I said, the majority of porn on the internet is through tube sites, not "commercial" porn production houses. As a matter of fact, the amount of "commercial" porn on tube sites (which account for well over half of all internet porn, according to industry analysts) has dried up significantly, particularly in the last year, due to some out-of-court copyright infringement suits that require such tube sites to remove most of the professionally-produced content. Which means what is left is, by definition, amateur.

That means there's a WHOLE LOT of amateur porn out there. And almost all of it done by consenting adults. 

Even if you wanted to take the performers' choice to make a professional production out of their hands to "protect" them (and since most mainstream porn producers pay pretty well, you'd be protecting them from $100,000 a year jobs that leave them plenty of time to spend with their kids) you'd still have this massive amount of porn to contend with. And if you got rid of commercial porn entirely, then the illicit, unregulated stuff would rise to fill the void, which means all of those horrible things you allude to are no longer the exception in the industry, but the rule. Not to mention pissing off an awful lot of people in the industry who clearly love what they're doing and are good at it.



Trenton said:


> To your comment about clothing...you ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT 100% that we should stand up to such policies and demand as consumers that fair trade be implemented. Oh so many amazing issues packed into that one issue and I could go on for days about it. You absolutely can find resources to purchase Fair Trade clothing that are still affordable and not made by underpaid men and women/children. It's interesting but you actually picked an issue that is very dear to me.
> 
> Now, I do believe we are all hypocrites doing the best we can but once we investigate and understand the truth of any issue, I believe we do have an obligation to do something. For example, do you think I wear a diamond ring?
> 
> Noooooezzz I don't. I became informed of the blood diamond practices and how easily you could be given one by mistake even with certification and my husband recently had a beautiful amber wedding ring made for me. The entire practice can be stopped if wealthy citizens of the world woke up and said diamonds weren't forever and the bestest thing on Earth. A simple change in public awareness and image could end the brutal en-slavery and murder of workers that mine for diamonds. Why does this not happen? Because too many people are willing to look the other way even if armed with information. IT DRIVES ME INSANE!


Nor did I buy a diamond ring for my wife. Because men don't by diamonds for themselves hardly ever. In fact, the ENTIRE JEWELRY INDUSTRY, from blood diamonds to the strip mining for emeralds in Brazil, is fueled almost entirely on the goal of flattering a woman's vanity. Believe me, left to their own devices it's unlikely a man would ever buy a diamond on his own. The whole practice is just one more way that the current social set up is designed to exploit the success of the male to benefit the female. Disgusting.

Yet I don't see you advocating for women to return their rings and jewelry to their husbands, because of the exploitive nature of the practice. Blood diamonds and tropical emeralds are bad, sure, but those are crimes-of-the-moment. The idea that a man should be expected to publicly demonstrate his wealth in such a gross fashion, voluntarily handing a woman "two months' salary" or more without sexual guarantee is appalling. Woman wants a ring, woman needs to work for it. This financial exploitation of male success has got to stop! 



Trenton said:


> One of my favorite brands, Forever 21, was outed for taking advantage of immigrant laborers in Cali, mostly women. There was a documentary on it and I stopped shopping there immediately but after enough awareness was raised, the owner of Forever 21 relented and changed the pay, work hours and environment of the factory he had both legal and illegal immigrants working in.
> 
> My point here is that it is important and we have an obligation to keep aware and educated and take actions that elicit positive changes. It's also VERY POSSIBLE and happens everyday.
> 
> It's not that I'm perfect, I'm absolutely not. I've purchased clothes from Wal-Mart and I have watched pro porn in the past and it really does work to get you off, no doubt.


So, let's recap:

Pro porn is bad because it's exploitive to female childhood sexual abuse survivors, and men shouldn't watch it despite their biological urge because it's exploitive. Completely unregulated amateur porn _isn't_ bad, but since you don't make a distinction between the two in your broad generalization the upshot of your argument is that Porn Is Bad and Exploitive and if men would just quit having all these sexual urges -- or subliment them completely to their wives -- all the sexual exploitation would go away.

Pro clothing/shoes are bad because it's exploitive to just about everyone in the third world, and women shouldn't wear anything that isn't completely checked out and produced to USA occupational standards (which means that 99% of the clothes in the stores you shop at are exploitive). It's okay to keep buying clothing and shoes, however, until the exploitation is brought to your attention: then you make yourself feel better about it by making a few select purchases that you're reasonably certain are "cruelty free" or whatever the code is . . . but you'll still go crazy over a clothing sale regardless of where and how it was produced, even knowing that it was produced with exploited labor, because the allure of new styles and fashions is compelling enough to overcome your squeamishness about exploiting the child labor in the world. 

So . . . would it be okay if I only watched porn that was certified 100% non-childhood sexual abuse survivor-free? "Fair Trade" porn? 





Trenton said:


> What it comes down to:
> 
> What is better here? Watching porn to get off because your wife won't give you what you want sexually knowing full well the there's a 60-80% chance risk that the woman you're watching had her legs spread open by her own father for his pleasure? -or-
> working together with women to improve relationships, make sure both sexes get what they want and marriages are happier?


Let's turn it around: which is better here: subjugating yourself to a single woman's control over your sexuality with absolutely no guarantee of sexual activity, allowing her to define what is and isn't permissible for you to fantasize about while she controls the nature and manner of your orgasm (and that's a pretty big value for most men) 

or -

Ensuring that both parties are fully informed about the sexual needs of their partner's gender with the understanding that each has independent needs that require meeting in a periodic manner, without recourse to emotional, financial, or social extortion over the subject and full and equal respect for both parties' needs?

Tomato, tomahto. 

The problem is too often "improving relationships" is code for "women win the game" for most men. Especially when the issue is sexual. For many men, improving the relationship from their point of view includes the freedom and security to select their own sexual fantasy material without being dictated to by anyone. Men place a higher premium on sexual activity, as a rule, yet "improving relationships" has consistently meant that men's needs, values, and desires must be secondary to a woman's within the relationship. Until now, the problem has been that men had no other realistic recourse to sexual outlet in a "troubled relationship" without infidelity. Now that they have it, and the power of women in the relationship is diminished accordingly, the standard female position is "drop the porn and I'll have sex with you more" which turns out to be "drop the porn and I'll _say_ I'll have sex with you more, but what I _actually_ mean is that I'm going to make you work that much harder, _outside_ your comfort zone to make you conform to my standards of sexuality, and you can just screw yourself if you think I'm going to adopt yours."

I've seen it happen in plenty of marital counseling sessions. To the point where MC is looked upon with open dread by most men. 

When women are willing to even try to understand male sexuality as a class, then we might put down the porn. But as it is, it's a losing game and we know it.



Trenton said:


> Saying to your wife, hey biatch I'm watching porn because you don't want to put out and my **** has needs, isn't going to evoke compassion and a willingness to change. In fact, it very well could lead to the beginning of the end of the relationship. Learning to communicate with her and incorporating her own needs with your needs to find a balance between the two of you is your best bet anyway.


So will saying to your husband "All you want me for is sex!". Actually, fellas, let me know if any of this sounds familiar:

"Again!?! Didn't we just do it? How much do you need?"

"I'm feeling really, really tired tonight. Maybe tomorrow?" (repeat as necessary)

"I don't care how long it's been, if you don't (insert demand here) there's just no way I'm going to be able to get in the mood."

"God! Most couples don't have as much sex as we do! What is _wrong_ with you?"

"Look, I just don't want to. That's that. Good night."

"I'm not _rejecting_ YOU, I'm just saying no."

"If you think I'm going to lay here like a ***** while you just get your rocks off, you've got another think coming!"

"Look, I'm just not that into sex. We do it plenty. G'night."

"I was actually open to the idea, but when you started getting all pouty about it it was a real turn off. Yes, I know I said I would, but I changed my mind."

"I think you're addicted to sex. You need to see someone."

"Look, I don't feel like it, so just deal. And if I catch you watching porn again, we're in counseling."

"You don't make me feel ___________ anymore. I'm sorry, but I just don't feel intimate enough tonight. Maybe if we go out on a date, or a vacation . . ."

"My mother warned me you'd get this way."

"I can't believe you have the nerve to ask me that! What kind of woman do you think I am!?"

"Only *****s do that. I'm your wife, you treat me with respect. Good night."

"I'm ashamed of you for even asking that. We'll discuss this in counseling."

And the list goes on. 

The fact is, we HD menfolk are willing to try nearly any tactic that works. Diamonds. New clothes. Cars. We'll let you pimp us for every last dime, if it will make you happy enough to let us have sex with you. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and asking a man who's already starved to voluntarily put down the free hamburger so he can learn the wonders of tofu just isn't cutting it. 

We're tired of trying to evoke your compassion and understanding . . . because as a class women are rarely compassionate and understanding of our needs, outside of a few extraordinary individuals. If the rewards of the effort were commensurate, you might have a chance, but I've witnessed enough marriages go to hell over this subject to realize that women in this situation invariably argue for their best interest and insist men give up their best interest before they even get to the negotiating table. 

Learning to incorporate her needs -- when we've spent most of our adult life catering to her needs -- is a hard pill to swallow. Convincing the average American woman to step out of her sexual comfort zone and even attempt to understand male sexuality is an exercise in futility, since y'all tend to succumb to frustration and throw up your hands before you get past the first few basic values. 

I mean, how much of your husband's sexuality do you truly understand? I've spent years studying my wife's sexual development. I can tell you things about her that even she doesn't know, because I'm one of the rare males who make the effort. But the effort on the other side is nearly non-existent, and considering how female society demonizes those who attempt to understand male sexuality within their ranks, it's unlikely to get better. But until it does, and women are ready to honestly accept our sexuality, you're only going to see more porn and less relationships. 

Well, actually, there are plenty of sexually subservient women in third world countries who are only too happy to cater to their American husband's sexual whims in order to escape the horrors of making American wives' clothes in slave-labor conditions. Of the last five weddings I've attended among my good friends, 3 of them were to foreign nationals. Sex was a big issue to the guys in question, and when they couldn't find American girls who were willing to discuss the matter, they ordered take-out.

I'll see if I can't dig up links to the source material. You'll have to pardon me -- I've been studying this subject for over twenty years, now, and I have a LOT of data swimming around. I pulled most of those figures off the top of my head from other articles I've written, but I'll see if I can't shoot you some.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Most likely she's hesitant because she's afraid of what she'll look like on video or feels she's not attractive enough. Another downside to pro porn is that it creates expectations that are unrealistic and really stupid but many women don't understand this, all they see is that they will never compare. It actually works against men. If you think watching porn is going to get your wife to figure out you have sex needs and wish she'd fill them, you're sending the exact opposite message. She doesn't want to hear this either..."I don't expect you to be perfect like these girls, I know it's a career for them." LOL
> 
> Anyway, I don't know where your wife and you are at sexually but if you brought your wife on, I'd be happy to talk to her.


But doesn't romance literature, soap operas, and other female sexual fantasy material set up unrealistic expectations of men in a relationship as being highly successful? Women see that stuff and that creates expectations that are unrealistic and really stupid, but many men don't see this, all they see is that no matter how successful they might become that they will never compare. It actually works against women. If you think that reading romance novels or watching soap operas is going to get your husband to realize that he needs to be more ambitious and better looking and wish that he'd realize that, you're sending the exact opposite message. He doesn't need to hear this, either: "I don't expect you to be as successful and as emotionally giving as those fantasy men, I know that they're fictional . . . it's just what I want."


LOL indeed.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I agree 100%. Men don't get that though but they come here and complain that their wives won't touch them. Uh, maybe it's because you make her feel like she can never measure up?


Or maybe they feel alienated by constant criticism, rejection, and comparison to other men who are "doing it better?"


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Awe GP, don't you just know that these prostitutes are begging to stay and swoon over some sweaty, overweight, entitled fat man? :rofl:


I find your assessment of the event telling. 

Why assume that he's sweaty, overweight, entitled, and fat? Is that because that's how you see most sexually needy men? Do these men somehow deserve less sexual attention than other men? Are they less of a human being because they can't don't find sexual satisfaction in a way you approve of?

If I called the prostitute "sweaty, overweight, entitled and fat" you'd be screaming.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
You sound very angry at women. Your choice of wording is offensive and shows your true misogyny. "Ordering Take out", and "cater to their American husbands sexual whims in order to escape the horrors of making American wives clothes". If a mail order bride or thirld world slave now acting as your prostitute is appealing, by all means have at it. You seem to have a very confused and unhealthy attitude surrounding women.
Oh, and what man buys a diamond for himself? The entire NFL/NBA/MLB, rappers, pimps, anybody who lives in the Castro district, Hugo Boss models, Harrison Ford, George Lucas, The mafia. "Goal of flattering a woman's vanity"?. Yeah, it isn't exclusive to women. What about the non-famous men? What is there equivalent? Flashy car? expensive watch? younger woman? hair plugs? Women don't have a lock on vanity, that's only in your mind.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I find your assessment of the event telling.
> 
> Why assume that he's sweaty, overweight, entitled, and fat? Is that because that's how you see most sexually needy men? Do these men somehow deserve less sexual attention than other men? Are they less of a human being because they can't don't find sexual satisfaction in a way you approve of?
> 
> If I called the prostitute "sweaty, overweight, entitled and fat" you'd be screaming.


I know 3 guys who have paid for sex and all of them fit my description. It's rarely a 6'4" chiseled Adonis who pays.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

hubby said:


> I am pretty sure my wife knows I post on the forum and she probably reads through a few threads. Especially since this is a thread I started.
> 
> Let's see if she chimes in


So, do I invite my wife to join the message board? I am sure there is some not so flattering threads from when things were bad, but the new stuff is all good. I think it would be interesting to have a little friendly banter between spouses on the board. If it gets to be TMI, we'll get a room.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Awe GP, don't you just know that these prostitutes are begging to stay and swoon over some sweaty, overweight, entitled fat man?


They're not?

Dowwwwlllll!!!!!!!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

hubby said:


> So, do I invite my wife to join the message board? I am sure there is some not so flattering threads from when things were bad, but the new stuff is all good. I think it would be interesting to have a little friendly banter between spouses on the board. If it gets to be TMI, we'll get a room.


You can always delete your threads and posts if you don't want your wife to know what had been in your mind!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> You sound very angry at women. Your choice of wording is offensive and shows your true misogyny. "Ordering Take out", and "cater to their American husbands sexual whims in order to escape the horrors of making American wives clothes". If a mail order bride or thirld world slave now acting as your prostitute is appealing, by all means have at it. You seem to have a very confused and unhealthy attitude surrounding women.
> Oh, and what man buys a diamond for himself? The entire NFL/NBA/MLB, rappers, pimps, anybody who lives in the Castro district, Hugo Boss models, Harrison Ford, George Lucas, The mafia. "Goal of flattering a woman's vanity"?. Yeah, it isn't exclusive to women. What about the non-famous men? What is there equivalent? Flashy car? expensive watch? younger woman? hair plugs? Women don't have a lock on vanity, that's only in your mind.


Angry at women? Perhaps. I'd say a certain amount of anger is justified, actually. If women could be angered at the way they were being treated as a class in the 1960s and 1970s, then men can be angry as a class in the 2010s. You can tell us we shouldn't be angry all you want, but that doesn't make the anger go away. 

In fact, the more you tell us we shouldn't be angry, that we should instead put aside our own sexual interests in favor of yours, the angrier we get. Women hated being told "not to worry their pretty little heads" about such important things as jobs and politics and sexual harassment -- and rightly so.

So why is it wrong for me to be angry? Y'all wanted us to share our feelings more as a gender. Or did you only want us to share our positive feelings? How fair is that?

And the anger comes from a place of understanding. It comes from recognizing, once you peel away all the distractions, that male and female sexual interests are fundamentally different. In the context of our present economic and social system, the way things stand are ultimately slanted against the interests of men. Yet when we complain about it and try to advocate for our interests, we're told we're a bunch of misogynistic whiners, instead of having our feelings validated and our positions understood. Y'all don't extend to us, as a class, the same respect and dignity that you DEMANDED as a class, and the hypocrisy is sickening. Twice so, since most of y'all won't even recognize it as hypocrisy.

Sure, rap stars, mobsters and celebrities buy diamonds. They're status symbols. You know what displaying symbols of status gets you in every human culture when you're a guy? Girls. That's the motivation. Even famous men don't buy diamonds because they're pretty, they buy them because girls geek out about diamonds, and by displaying them you are establishing yourself as the top of the social order, and therefore a better catch. And even if you factor that in, women still account for the vast majority of jewelry sales. Ask a jeweler. Men give jewelry or wear jewelry to impress women. Period. If you took that motivation away, de Beers would go out of business overnight. Male vanity is limited almost exclusively at impressing 
women who are impressed by status objects of success. Cars, watches, expensive townhouses and all the other "vanity" issues are almost exclusively designed to attract women . . . who are lured by the promise of wealth and security. Every guy knows if you get a hot enough car, you can find some woman who will have sex with you because you have a hot car. That's why we buy hot cars.

It's _all about_ the PP.

But despite how I slant the words (and they are designed to entertain and make an emotionally compelling argument, not plainly state a bunch of facts -- I am a writer, you know) that doesn't invalidate the truth of what I've said.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I know 3 guys who have paid for sex and all of them fit my description. It's rarely a 6'4" chiseled Adonis who pays.


So . . . you're saying that a man who DOESN'T pay attention to his "vanity" isn't worthy of having sex with, then?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

greenpearl said:


> You can always delete your threads and posts if you don't want your wife to know what had been in your mind!


I thought about it, but I have nothing to hide. I am sure she had her own negative emotions during those tough times.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Okay - can we all agree to disagree?

I, as a woman, don't feel that ALL women are exploited in the sexual industry. Most have freedom of choice, regardless of whether they were sexually abused in childhood or not. I'm sure you have some that feel they were forced into the industry and just as many that chose the industry by their own free will as they wanted to make fast, good money with little effort (per say).

There's good and bad in every industry and this includes the porn industry. You have those that will exploit anyone to make a fast buck and those who won't. Porn is not unique in this aspect.

I can't get on board with the blanket statement that porn exploits women (period). Just can't. And when does being abused in childhood mean that someone will turn to porn or that if you're in porn, then you must have been abused (based on the stats that have been touted here).

What does ONE have to do with the OTHER, really? I was abused as a child for many years and I'm not part of the porn industry. I fail to see a direct correlation between childhood abuse and f***king my ass off in a porn film. 

Regardless of the stats, and I'm not disputing them as I haven't done the research - I fail to see the correlation - so you were abused as a child, and THAT is the only reason you choose to do porn? Huh? Got to be more than that going on here. 

Look at me - defending porn? Maybe I've been invaded by space aliens today, I know, must be the crappy weather!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Angry at women? Perhaps. I'd say a certain amount of anger is justified, actually. If women could be angered at the way they were being treated as a class in the 1960s and 1970s, then men can be angry as a class in the 2010s. You can tell us we shouldn't be angry all you want, but that doesn't make the anger go away.
> 
> In fact, the more you tell us we shouldn't be angry, that we should instead put aside our own sexual interests in favor of yours, the angrier we get. Women hated being told "not to worry their pretty little heads" about such important things as jobs and politics and sexual harassment -- and rightly so.
> 
> ...


You are upset because women demand to not be treated like a blow up doll anymore? And then you make a thinly veiled threat that American men are ordering women from other countries because American women won't be that doll. Yes, somehow I see how you are so oppressed.
And just so I understand male vanity is limited to impressing women but a woman's vanity is because she is a money grubbing ***** hell bent on seperating a man from his money? Gotcha. Yeah, you aren't a misogynist. 
Writer, eh? Does writing for porn count as a writer? We aren't talking Hemmingway here. Unless of course you are DrunkExPatWriter from another website. In that case, you are a literary poet.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay - can we all agree to disagree?
> 
> I, as a woman, don't feel that ALL women are exploited in the sexual industry. Most have freedom of choice, regardless of whether they were sexually abused in childhood or not. I'm sure you have some that feel they were forced into the industry and just as many that chose the industry by their own free will as they wanted to make fast, good money with little effort (per say).
> 
> ...


I love the crappy weather. Our sales are up 25%, thanks to all the folks trapped at home with their computers.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay - can we all agree to disagree?
> 
> I, as a woman, don't feel that ALL women are exploited in the sexual industry. Most have freedom of choice, regardless of whether they were sexually abused in childhood or not. I'm sure you have some that feel they were forced into the industry and just as many that chose the industry by their own free will as they wanted to make fast, good money with little effort (per say).
> 
> ...


Ian, how exactly did you hack into MWIL's account


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

hubby said:


> I thought about it, but I have nothing to hide. I am sure she had her own negative emotions during those tough times.


If she is showing her frustration here, then it is her real frustration, it will be good for both of you to know what your frustration is and try to avoid it in the future. 

We don't know what's in the other one's mind if we don't talk out, if we don't know what the other one really likes and doesn't like, then it is difficult for us to please them. 

Misunderstanding can really drive a couple apart, and this kind of mistake is what we should avoid! 

As long as we have a sincere attitude to work hard so we can have a better and happier marriage, that's all we need!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You are upset because women demand to not be treated like a blow up doll anymore? And then you make a thinly veiled threat that American men are ordering women from other countries because American women won't be that doll. Yes, somehow I see how you are so oppressed.
> And just so I understand male vanity is limited to impressing women but a woman's vanity is because she is a money grubbing ***** hell bent on seperating a man from his money? Gotcha. Yeah, you aren't a misogynist.
> Writer, eh? Does writing for porn count as a writer? We aren't talking Hemmingway here. Unless of course you are DrunkExPatWriter from another website. In that case, you are a literary poet.



Actually, there are plenty of "respectable" writers who write erotica under pseudonyms, and you'd be shocked if you knew.

Yes, writing erotica counts as being a writer. But if that isn't enough credential for you, I also had a New York Times Best Selling Novel back in the 1990s. 9 weeks. First book.

Since then I've been writing about four, five books a year, blog posts, journalism, and academic papers on three different subjects. I average about 15,000 words a day. I've been translated into seven different languages. 

That work for you?

And sure, you can call me a misogynist if it makes you feel better -- pardon me for having strong feelings on a subject I'm passionate about. I guess guys are just supposed to shut up and hold the purse, right?

If American women don't want to be treated like "blow up dolls" (which demonstrates a profound lack of understanding about male sexuality to begin with) then they can just accept the fact that American men will be finding alternatives -- porn, prostitution, clandestine affairs and mail-order brides -- for the foreseeable future. Things are trending pretty powerfully in that direction now, and I don't see any sign of it changing any time soon. Your generation might not feel the full force of it, but the coming generation will. Men are marrying later and fewer, but marrying more foreign nationals. Sex is a major component of that. By 2020, 1 in 5 females over 40 will have had their last realistic shot at a long term relationship. Marriage rates are projected to decline significantly. The number of single women in competition for marriageable males is expected to _double_ by then. Already we're seeing a decline in the number of college-aged men who say they see themselves married in ten years. 

But call us misogynist. We LOVE that. That helps a LOT. Especially when we're trying to have a serious conversation about a serious subject we take seriously.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

hubby said:


> Ian, how exactly did you hack into MWIL's account


I'm just that persuasive. Ask my wife.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove, if you won't do the research how can your opinion have any validity? You can have an opinion, of course, but if you keep that opinion when someone else has done all the work for you to see the reality and you still keep your opinion that is bad. Typical but bad none the less.

Ian, I'm actually hoping you'll shorten your responses a wee bit as it's becoming a full on effort to have a conversation with you. Conversations with you seem baited with hooks. I wonder if this is how others feel about me...

I would never promote diamonds or other fancy things that come at the expense of other women and men. EVER. 

Let's be Frank here or Franketta even, people are selfish and they enjoy when things are in their favor because we are all individuals with self contained physical, emotional and mental sensations. At the same time, we are stuck with a conundrum, because all of our true happiness comes from connections with one another and the world around us. You can see the problem here, yes? It is both the beauty and the horror of our humanity.

You may think I am not an advocate for men but you're wrong. I understand their strong desire for sexual satisfaction and exploration as well as their innate desire to provide and feel that they are worthy of the empire they build around them. I am also an advocate for women and I understand their strong desire to connect with and feel loved by a man as well as their desire to create a nurturing and safe home.

Yes, I am generalizing here. Men and women will always fall off the norm and so this might create more struggle when they do.

In general, what is the answer? It is in the connection itself but what happens instead? We actually disconnect and take sides, indulge in our selfish desires as they are easiest to achieve and ask for and we are sure of them. The very thing that comes with ease is the very thing that works against our own contentment.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, there are plenty of "respectable" writers who write erotica under pseudonyms, and you'd be shocked if you knew.
> 
> Yes, writing erotica counts as being a writer. But if that isn't enough credential for you, I also had a New York Times Best Selling Novel back in the 1990s. 9 weeks. First book.
> 
> ...


You are passionate about your thing and I am passionate about mine. If men want to "find alternatives -- porn, prostitution, clandestine affairs" then don't get married. Period. I wouldn't marry somebody like that and yet for some reason you seem to think single women should just be grateful to have a man that would do that. Just so you also know, women are delaying marriage, children and family too. So a guy cannot handle that a career might be important to a woman and heads down South to find a woman....so be it. There are just as many Ricos down there who would be over the moon to marry a strong woman who speaks her mind. To each there own.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You are passionate about your thing and I am passionate about mine. If men want to "find alternatives -- porn, prostitution, clandestine affairs" then don't get married. Period. I wouldn't marry somebody like that and yet for some reason you seem to think single women should just be grateful to have a man that would do that. Just so you also know, women are delaying marriage, children and family too. So a guy cannot handle that a career might be important to a woman and heads down South to find a woman....so be it. There are just as many Ricos down there who would be over the moon to marry a strong woman who speaks her mind. To each there own.


Actually, women aren't delaying marriage by choice, according to the Great American Sex Survey 2010 (this is kind of cheating, because the full report hasn't been released yet, and I'm privy to the raw data. Nevertheless . . .). Women report _wanting_ to get married at an average age of 25 (though the age they actually _get_ married the first time is 28), and over 70% of unmarried women in relationships would seriously consider marriage with their current partner if asked.

Compare that to less than 30% of men in the same demographic.

So while women may say that they want to delay marriage for a career or other considerations, the fact is that American men are just not asking them to get married, and aren't showing much inclination to ever do so (and the current economy only makes things worse for marriage-minded men!)

As far as mail-order-husbands go, good luck. If you want a Rico, get a Rico. But you might want to acquaint yourself with the expectations of a wife in a traditional Latin (or Arabic) marriage would put you a lot closer to the "blow up sex doll" category than you'd ever be with an American man. Not to mention culturally approved levels of domestic violence. Sure, they like a strong willed woman who speaks her mind . . . but when the lights go out, the male marital prerogative is alive and well. Good luck with that.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, women aren't delaying marriage by choice, according to the Great American Sex Survey 2010 (this is kind of cheating, because the full report hasn't been released yet, and I'm privy to the raw data. Nevertheless . . .). Women report _wanting_ to get married at an average age of 25 (though the age they actually _get_ married the first time is 28), and over 70% of unmarried women in relationships would seriously consider marriage with their current partner if asked.
> 
> Compare that to less than 30% of men in the same demographic.
> 
> ...


Honey, I wouldn't be marrying him. 
Wasn't the survey already realesed on AskMen?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, women aren't delaying marriage by choice, according to the Great American Sex Survey 2010 (this is kind of cheating, because the full report hasn't been released yet, and I'm privy to the raw data. Nevertheless . . .). Women report _wanting_ to get married at an average age of 25 (though the age they actually _get_ married the first time is 28), and over 70% of unmarried women in relationships would seriously consider marriage with their current partner if asked.
> 
> Compare that to less than 30% of men in the same demographic.
> 
> ...


So what is your solution then? Just continue to tell women to suck it up and deal? So exactly how would that be an advancement from say the 60's or 70's? It is still mens needs/wishes/domenance over women. Nothing has changed.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Honey, I wouldn't be marrying him.
> Wasn't the survey already realesed on AskMen?


Different year. It's an annual survey. I'm working on the 2011 version, now.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan, go to your roots and get a male order husband from Sweden. They do so very much right when it comes to male/female relationships and the treatment of both men and women. 

Although, I do have a Latin husband who was born and raised in Bolivia until he was 7 and he is a Rico that fully supports my dreams even if he doesn't quite understand them.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Brennan, go to your roots and get a male order husband from Sweden. They do so very much right when it comes to male/female relationships and the treatment of both men and women.
> 
> Although, I do have a Latin husband who was born and raised in Bolivia until he was 7 and he is a Rico that fully supports my dreams even if he doesn't quite understand them.


Exactly. :smthumbup:


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

greenpearl said:


> If she is showing her frustration here, then it is her real frustration, it will be good for both of you to know what your frustration is and try to avoid it in the future.
> 
> We don't know what's in the other one's mind if we don't talk out, if we don't know what the other one really likes and doesn't like, then it is difficult for us to please them.
> 
> ...


Sent her an invite to this thread...he he...hi babe :crazy:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Different year. It's an annual survey. I'm working on the 2011 version, now.


Ah hah! Now I know why you have the ideas/attitude that you do. AskMen has a readership of PUA's/and frat boys. So you ask a 19 year if they want to get married....of course they say in 10years. Now ask a 30 old if he wants to get married and you aren't going to get "in 10 years" as your answer.  It's all in who you ask and judging from the comments on that site, I would run screaming away from these "men". Let 'em victimize South America instead.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> So what is your solution then? Just continue to tell women to suck it up and deal? So exactly how would that be an advancement from say the 60's or 70's? It is still mens needs/wishes/domenance over women. Nothing has changed.


You're making the mistake of thinking that that's the only alternative. It isn't. But the one that would work best is the one that women aren't going to like, and, therefore, the reason why the next generation or so is going to see a lot of unhappy campers.

You want to fix the problem? here's how:

1. Give both genders education on how their particular sexuality works, without criticism or judgement. Men don't define female sexuality, women don't define male sexuality. Women need intimacy before sex, men need sex before intimacy; women need security, men need sex, etc. etc. 

2. Legalize and regulate prostitution as a legitimate adult service and de-stigmatize it socially, so that neither the prostitute or the john is demonized in the process. It works in Europe just fine.

3. Re-assess the gender differences in custody, support and divorce proceedings to bring them into a fairer balance.

4. Enshrine the ERA as constitutional law. I know, I know, a pipe dream, but . . . 

5. Improve sex education dramatically, starting at the elementary school level. Focus less on plumbing and cooties, more on emotional development and primal drives.

6. Establish a better social method of pairing up sexually compatible couples. Dating services like Match.com are starting to do that, but they aren't quite all the way there, yet.

There are probably other suggestions, and I'll make them as they occur to me, but the upshot is this: American men are just going to be like this, indefinitely, until their needs get addressed. 

And if you think things are bad now . . . the Japanese, masters of masturbation, are within years of producing a practical sex-bot. Not sci-fi, I've seen the prototype, and if the advances in cybernetics and materials engineering continue at this pace, by 2020 we'll see commercially-available robotic "girl friends" who can not only screw you six ways from zero, they never lose their looks and they'll be programmed to do light household chores and hold fairly complex conversations, too.

Porn is fairly easy to compete with. In 8 years, y'all will face the rise of the machines. If you think a good man is hard to find now . . . 

So the question is really what can American women offer American men of value that will be sufficient enough to keep them from running out and buying a "perfect girlfriend" for the price of an economy car?

I'm as stumped as you. I'm guessing the answer isn't "teach mean how to communicate their feelings better." Just sayin'.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ah hah! Now I know why you have the ideas/attitude that you do. AskMen has a readership of PUA's/and frat boys. So you ask a 19 year if they want to get married....of course they say in 10years. Now ask a 30 old if he wants to get married and you aren't going to get "in 10 years" as your answer.  It's all in who you ask and judging from the comments on that site, I would run screaming away from these "men". Let 'em victimize South America instead.


The Great American Sex Survey isn't exclusive to AskMen. That's just one of the venues in which it's printed. Adam & Eve funds and creates the study, and it goes out across a wide demographic, all socioeconomic classes, etc. Just surveying frat boys isn't going to do the largest vibrator vendor on the planet much good for marketing, is it? And if you think A&E is full of frat boys and 19 year olds, you're sadly mistaken.

It's not my "attitude" that's at issue here. These are clear sociological and cultural trends that demonstrate a serious re-assessment of male-female gender roles in our society. You might not like my perspective, but I've yet to see a compelling argument against my conclusions.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Funny but I think you are projecting. Your list is fine in some respects but you end it with this...

"So the question is really what can American women offer American men of value that will be sufficient enough to keep them from running out and buying a "perfect girlfriend" for the price of an economy car?"

News for you...just as calling you a misogynist won't help men communicate with women, neither will statements like that.

If you were to ask my husband if sex was the first and largest priority in why he chose to be with me, and I just texted him this question so can give you his answer which was quick in response, "Sex is great but you're far greater."

The picture, Ian, is a lot bigger than the penis you keep demanding we focus on.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,

If a guy wants to screw a robot, let him. He wouldn't have a shot of getting a real woman anyways and I certainly won't be "competing" for him.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> The Great American Sex Survey isn't exclusive to AskMen. That's just one of the venues in which it's printed. Adam & Eve funds and creates the study, and it goes out across a wide demographic, all socioeconomic classes, etc. Just surveying frat boys isn't going to do the largest vibrator vendor on the planet much good for marketing, is it? And if you think A&E is full of frat boys and 19 year olds, you're sadly mistaken.
> 
> It's not my "attitude" that's at issue here. These are clear sociological and cultural trends that demonstrate a serious re-assessment of male-female gender roles in our society. You might not like my perspective, but I've yet to see a compelling argument against my conclusions.


I have given you plenty of arguments, you just chose to ignore them.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Funny but I think you are projecting. Your list is fine in some respects but you end it with this...
> 
> "So the question is really what can American women offer American men of value that will be sufficient enough to keep them from running out and buying a "perfect girlfriend" for the price of an economy car?"
> 
> ...


If a guy is so desperate he needs to buy a robot since he can't score with women, he deserves to spend the same as an economy car. Hell, he deserves to spend the amount of a Bentley. My guess is these are the same men who head South to "buy a wife" all under the guise that American women don't understand him. Wrong, they understand him just fine and stay the hell away from him.
:rofl:
Focus on my penis? Doesn't a group like that already exist and the founder is Tucker Max? I bet he's already put a down payment on Latex Lady.
:rofl:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I have given you plenty of arguments, you just chose to ignore them.


Hard to argue with a penis. It has a one track mind. That's why women prefer to play with it.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Geez, I can't keep up with you guys.

On a side note, this thread just broke the record for most posts in the Sex In Marriage section...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Funny but I think you are projecting. Your list is fine in some respects but you end it with this...
> 
> "So the question is really what can American women offer American men of value that will be sufficient enough to keep them from running out and buying a "perfect girlfriend" for the price of an economy car?"
> 
> ...


I wonder how he would answer if he was speaking to someone other than the person he has sex with? I mean, it's hardly in his best interest to offer any response than the one he did. I'm certain he's being honest, but you have to appreciate what I'm saying. Heck, I'd say the same thing to my wife. 

But if you were never, ever able to have sex with him again, what would his answer be?

Sure, don't focus on the penis. Penis is bad, right? Naughty, hateful, hurtful, resentful penis. Bad penis. Penis evil, unless it's properly contained, and then it's just dangerous.

Yeah, but that's how we feel.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> If a guy is so desperate he needs to buy a robot since he can't score with women, he deserves to spend the same as an economy car. Hell, he deserves to spend the amount of a Bentley. My guess is these are the same men who head South to "buy a wife" all under the guise that American women don't understand him. Wrong, they understand him just fine and stay the hell away from him.
> :rofl:
> Focus on my penis? Doesn't a group like that already exist and the founder is Tucker Max? I bet he's already put a down payment on Latex Lady.
> :rofl:



Again, derision and poking fun at the expense of male sexuality. Sure, no reason for ME to be bitter. You can make fun of the penis all you want. Men don't have feelings, after all. 

And it won't just be "losers" who buy sexbots. You know how competitive guys are about their cars -- what happens when they can get a new model girlfriend EVERY YEAR and never have to worry about any of the unpleasant details? Unless its in his best interest to do otherwise, that's what most guys will end up doing. Even the guys the next generation of marriagable women will find most desirable will have even LESS reason to pursue a real relationship.

Humor your way out of that.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> You know how competitive guys are about their cars


Last time a buddy of mine bought a new sports car the first thing he asked me was "Do you want to take her for a spin?"


Errr, no thanks.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I wonder how he would answer if he was speaking to someone other than the person he has sex with? I mean, it's hardly in his best interest to offer any response than the one he did. I'm certain he's being honest, but you have to appreciate what I'm saying. Heck, I'd say the same thing to my wife.
> 
> But if you were never, ever able to have sex with him again, what would his answer be?
> 
> ...


I love the penis. It's a really cool thing. I also love the vagina even if it really annoys me from time to time. Between the two I think the penis is less annoying. No idea why you think I have such penis hate. I think the difference here is that I value the person that has the penis and in saying that I want a man that is a man but is also understanding of me as a woman and likes my vagina a lot. Not a man who tells me he's going to go buy a robot because I won't put out enough.

I believe my husband when he says that to me. I could choose not to believe him and assume he's telling "the guys" a different story but I don't think so. You have to think so because it's convenient to your line of thinking. Given my 16 years with the man and your obvious distaste for women who don't believe your gobbly ****, I'm going to believe myself and him.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Last time a buddy of mine bought a new sports car the first thing he asked me was "Do you want to take her for a spin?"
> 
> 
> Errr, no thanks.


So sharing robots would be out of the question then? :rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Again, derision and poking fun at the expense of male sexuality. Sure, no reason for ME to be bitter. You can make fun of the penis all you want. Men don't have feelings, after all.
> 
> And it won't just be "losers" who buy sexbots. You know how competitive guys are about their cars -- what happens when they can get a new model girlfriend EVERY YEAR and never have to worry about any of the unpleasant details? Unless its in his best interest to do otherwise, that's what most guys will end up doing. Even the guys the next generation of marriagable women will find most desirable will have even LESS reason to pursue a real relationship.
> 
> Humor your way out of that.


I wasn't poking fun at the expense of male sexuality! Do you really think male sexuality and having sex with robots is the same? It sounds more like a fetish to me and like I said to each his own but I doubt many women or men would think "hey, cool, you screw latex". Actually I think both sexes would feel sorry for him. 
Male sexuality is awesome, I love it! What you mentioned to me sounds way different though. 
Look, back on topic....I have no issue with porn, amateur porn,Penthouse Forum or any other literary sex works. NONE. I have issues with commercial porn that seems to attract the abused/broken/drug addicted ones. I truly feel it continues the abuse. As Trenton pointed out, many of these women due to sexual abuse feel so low about themselves that they really don't value their body much and seem to think that this is all they can do. A couple who wants to film themselves having hot sex and post it for the world to see? Awesome! An 18 year old girl who has been subjected to years of abuse and now is a drug addict doing porn? Not cool at all in my book. Same thing goes for prostitution. 
Can you recognize the difference? Again, our experiences frame our opinions. You are pro-porn because you make a living writing it. That's fine! Can you see how my experience would be different though, being a one time "actor" in a movie and what I experienced and saw on the set?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I love the penis. It's a really cool thing. I also love the vagina even if it really annoys me from time to time. Between the two I think the penis is less annoying. No idea why you think I have such penis hate. I think the difference here is that I value the person that has the penis and in saying that I want a man that is a man but is also understanding of me as a woman and likes my vagina a lot. Not a man who tells me he's going to go buy a robot because I won't put out enough.
> 
> I believe my husband when he says that to me. I could choose not to believe him and assume he's telling "the guys" a different story but I don't think so. You have to think so because it's convenient to your line of thinking. Given my 16 years with the man and your obvious distaste for women who don't believe your gobbly ****, I'm going to believe myself and him.


You call it gobbly ****, therefore deriding my ideas without addressing them. You take my argument, based on demographic data and years of research, and personalize the result to your situation without respect to the wider implications of what I have to say. No doubt you and your husband are deeply in love, and nary a sexual problem has arisin -- bravo. 

But nowhere have I given any indication that I have distaste for women . . . at all, much less those who disagree with my opinions. The fact is, on the contrary, I love women, all women, and I've never once attempted to reduce them to mere sexual components. On the contrary, I've always tried to place sexuality, both male and female, within the greater context of economics, sociology, anthropology, and psychology. I love women, but I feel sorry for them. In our culture they're coming off some impressive gains only to face some impressive losses.

Do you think I want the men in America to leave their wives for porn, prostitutes and eventually sexbots? Absolutely not. That would be devastating to both our culture and our society. It would lead to some dark places, some very dark places, and untold misery for millions. What's happening to both male and female sexuality has taken our few thousand years of civilization and all the rules that our culture is used to working with, and put them into a blender. You can't unblend something. It's done, and despite your personal experience, the writing is on the wall when it comes to sex, family, relationships and marriage for the rest of America. You might live a long and happy life with your husband . . . but your daughter will likely not be as fortunate. 

You also seek to personalize this, pointing out your negative perceptions of my position -- and me, personally -- without actually attempting to refute them, while I have consistently tried to keep the debate impersonal and reference you and your situation in only the vaguest and generally speculative of terms. I make few assumptions about you, and when I do I call them out, while you've made some very personal statements about who you think I am. That's your prerogative, but it doesn't do much in the debate to undermine my point -- and a lot of the time it has validated it. 

In reviewing some of the statements that have been made in this thread, I'm amused that characterizations made by some of the women would, when the genders were reversed, come across as horribly sexist. Sexism is sexism, whether it's misogyny or misandry. It isn't any better when it's a male who's the target of it. The difference is cultural, though: in our society, everyone has license to treat men as the butt of any joke and get away with it with impunity. You can call the American male stupid, ignorant, uncultured, shallow, uncivilized, brutish, rapacious, clueless, filthy, and untrustworthy with no fear of outcry or consequence. American men just have to take it, smile, shrug it off, and pretend like it doesn't matter. 

And that's what really gets me: in my studies of the social upheaval caused by feminism and the sexual/social revolution of the last century, the universal cry was for Equality, equal rights, equal consideration, equal respect, re-casting the institution of marriage as an equal partnership. That was the ideal, the Equal Partnership. Since the 1950s -- arguably the high-water mark for the American Male -- men have been urged to give up the atavistic customs of the past, quit treating their wives as sub-human, and view women with equal respect. And like it or not, that's what the culture evolved towards. Marriage went from a breadwinner/householder arrangement to a two-breadwinner industrial arrangement, serial monogamy with a hefty dose of divorce. American male attitudes about marriage largely changed along with it, as co-parenting and wage parity obscured the economic differences between men and women. 

But along the way, come to find out, some genders are more Equal than others. Especially in the realm of sexuality. When it comes to how the male/female sexual dynamic has evolved, and is evolving, the importance and relative place of sex in a marriage has changed, and our social and cultural institutions have been slow to match it. 

Worse, new technologies and rapidly changing economic conditions have muddied the waters significantly. As the culture-wide resentment of men grows, they are dis-engaging as a class. Subjected to severe judgement and unequal consideration, especially in the realm of sexuality, they are trading what little privilege they have left for an XBOX and internet porn. And if you don't think that's a problem, you aren't looking at the big picture.

Off to my little girl's birthday party, now. Pretty rough day, for a misogynist.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I think we should all be tolerant here. . .heterosexuality and homosexuality.

Just because Ian leans robosexual, Trenton and Brennan should not hold it against him.

I have had an occasional robosexual fantasy myself.

Ever see Austin Powers Femmebots?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

I can't keep up with this thread, but I have to say I agree with Ian (guess most already knew that). He might say it crudely, he might generalize between sexes, he might say other things in styles you won't like. But he isn't saying women should submit to male sexuality.

He is just informing how men think, and sadly, depending on the man, I'd say they'd mostly have some of this in them at the very least. Ian is trying to say this: You can choose to ignore how a man feels about sex and say it is primal, or you can try to understand, even if you don't comprehend.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Trenton and Brennan are usually a good team. 

How come they agree with each other so much? Are you twins?

Don't be pissed off by me if I side with these men again! 

Or you guys are not surprised at all!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> I think we should all be tolerant here. . .heterosexuality and homosexuality.
> 
> Just because Ian leans robosexual, Trenton and Brennan should not hold it against him.
> 
> ...


I know you are trying to be funny but I think you missed alot of what Trenton and I were saying. He is suggesting that we are totally intolerant of male sexuality because we are intolerant of the further abuse of women in commercial porn and prostitution. 
Both Trenton and I have experience in this. I have posted that I did a film 20 years ago and the horrible experience it was and she runs a non-profit to help girls/women get out of the trade. He just continues to beat the drum that porn is awesome and wonderful and a man's God given right. 
I have mentioned that it isn't amateur porn I have an issue with. Those who willingly post webcams of themselves having sex for nothing more than voyeurs watching them and the couple getting turned on thinking about others watching or couples who make a film and release it....awesome! Our issue is with women who through sexual abuse and incest feel such little self worth that they get caught up in the world of porn or prostitution because they feel they have no other options. 
Even when we speak about our past, he continues to defend his right as "biological" and sees us as somehow anti-male, unprogressive and bitter women. 
His misogyny is oozing and he ends it with he is off to his daughter's birthday party. If porn is so awesome and does no harm to people, then maybe he should wish for his daughter to blow out her candles and wish to be a porn star.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Trenton and Brennan are usually a good team.
> 
> How come they agree with each other so much? Are you twins?
> 
> ...


Nope, not twins...never even met in fact. Both of Swedish heritage though. Us Vikings are a powerful force. 

GP, as I have stated, I have no issue with porn if it is done because a person really wants to. Hell, I've filmed sex with my husband a 100 + times. I could post that to Xtube in a heartbeat and maybe I will. I have NO issue with amateur porn!!! 
My issue is with commercial porn/prostitution that furthers the abuse of the weak/sexually abused/incest victims/drug addicts. They do it because they feel they have no other option. The stats are staggering of said abuse and because I love women enough, I will never be okay with this, EVER. I posted before about my experience with the porn industry. 
Me? I just shoot my mouth off. Trenton? Well she actually does something about it!! Is she repressed or non-sexual? Far from it. She is actually hyper sexual and that comes from her past. She is just smart enough to realize that despite her previous abuse, she can rise above it all and be a powerful voice for women as she puts her time, effort, dedication and skills where her mouth is. I wish she was my twin. I have an identical twin in real life. I would trade her for Trenton in a second.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Nope, not twins...never even met in fact. Both of Swedish heritage though. Us Vikings are a powerful force.
> 
> GP, as I have stated, I have no issue with porn if it is done because a person really wants to. Hell, I've filmed sex with my husband a 100 + times. I could post that to Xtube in a heartbeat and maybe I will. I have NO issue with amateur porn!!!
> My issue is with commercial porn/prostitution that furthers the abuse of the weak/sexually abused/incest victims/drug addicts. They do it because they feel they have no other option. The stats are staggering of said abuse and because I love women enough, I will never be okay with this, EVER. I posted before about my experience with the porn industry.
> Me? I just shoot my mouth off. Trenton? Well she actually does something about it!! Is she repressed or non-sexual? Far from it. She is actually hyper sexual and that comes from her past. She is just smart enough to realize that despite her previous abuse, she can rise above it all and be a powerful voice for women as she puts her time, effort, dedication and skills where her mouth is. I wish she was my twin. I have an identical twin in real life. I would trade her for Trenton in a second.


I can understand where your reason is from. Our ideas are usually influenced by our experience in real life. 

In my past, some men had hurt me, and some women had hurt me. For quite a while I didn't have good things to say about women because of hurt imposed by them. 

But now I am away from this kind of thinking. There are good women, there are good men. My husband is a loving man, he helps me draw close to men, good female friends help me draw close to women. Observing them with an objective attitude, this is what I am learning and doing!


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Brennan:

I hear you.

I was only trying to offer (unsuccessfully) some comic relief to a thread. I think comic relief is important as I think Ian and You and Trenton are perhaps taking yourselves both a little too seriously. That's when sometimes I step in with some unsucessful (and sometimes sucessful) humor. . .but you are right. . .the abuse of women in the porn/sex trade industry isn't something to be taken lightly.

Every woman who turns 18 years old, for instance, are they really ready for it?

I mean the law says they are. . .Ian says they are. . .but really, really? I doubt it. Oh, he can give me a dissertation. . .to which I'll give an Archie Bunker Raspberry.

I am reminded of another story where a woman was tried and convicted of prostitution in a small town (I know prostitution and porn are different, but they are cousins).

The judge was handing down sentence and he fined every man in the courtroom, including himself $50. His reasoning was every man in the court allowed such an industry to propagate itself and kept it in business. Perhaps a bleeding heart liberal sentence but it did make a social statemetn that needs to be said.

That being said, the male sex drive is strong is all that Ian is trying to say between the lines. It's powerful. A force to be reckoned with. If we don't find males a positive outlet for sex it manifests in other ways.

Did you know cultures where men are mated quickly and successfully have a less penchant for war? A coincidence? Maybe. I think not.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Nope, not twins...never even met in fact. Both of Swedish heritage though. Us Vikings are a powerful force.
> 
> GP, as I have stated, I have no issue with porn if it is done because a person really wants to. Hell, I've filmed sex with my husband a 100 + times. I could post that to Xtube in a heartbeat and maybe I will. I have NO issue with amateur porn!!!
> My issue is with commercial porn/prostitution that furthers the abuse of the weak/sexually abused/incest victims/drug addicts. They do it because they feel they have no other option. The stats are staggering of said abuse and because I love women enough, I will never be okay with this, EVER. I posted before about my experience with the porn industry.
> Me? I just shoot my mouth off. Trenton? Well she actually does something about it!! Is she repressed or non-sexual? Far from it. She is actually hyper sexual and that comes from her past. She is just smart enough to realize that despite her previous abuse, she can rise above it all and be a powerful voice for women as she puts her time, effort, dedication and skills where her mouth is. I wish she was my twin. I have an identical twin in real life. I would trade her for Trenton in a second.


Well, just one other question. Hentai? Your opinion?


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Could be why America can't seem to go 5-6 years without starting a war. . .


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

For porn, 

Female porn stars ARE being poorly treated, they are being treated as toys for men to play with. 

Cum everywhere on the face, and they have to pretend that they like it, I usually feel grossed by this kind of scene. 

Men thrusting their coks in their mouths and they are gagging, it is a turn off for my husband. 

I don't know about double penetration, do they really enjoy it or not, I don't know. But I heard that it can be wonderful feeling if you are through the anal pain. I wonder how they got their assh**e so big, I haven't achieved that. I would love to be able to do it so my husband can enjoy anal sex, he gets very horny just by thinking of doing this to me. 

I do hope they can make some beautiful porn, male porn stars are treating the female porn stars respectfully, I do enjoy watching beautiful and handsome bodies having sex together. It is arousing for me. 

For those female porn stars, if they choose to be working in this industry, I don't see why not, they make their own choice, if they can't take it, I am sure they leave. We are adults, we make our own decisions, we shoulder our responsibility. 

For the dark side of this society, I have come to accept this is life.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> I can understand where your reason is from. Our ideas are usually influenced by our experience in real life.
> 
> In my past, some men had hurt me, and some women had hurt me. For quite a while I didn't have good things to say about women because of hurt imposed by them.
> 
> But now I am away from this kind of thinking. There are good women, there are good men. My husband is a loving man, he helps me draw close to men, good female friends help me draw close to women. Observing them with an objective attitude, this is what I am learning and doing!


Yes!! Her experience was one of incest. Horrible, just awful. She has three children and are raising them to have a voice and to speak their minds. Never accept what is handed to you and never lower yourself. Someday I would like to meet her. She is an inspiration to us survivors of abuse. How her actions were deemed as "anti-male" is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is that given her voice and her actions, some men are threatened by this. Well **** them!!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

The hardest part of this whole thread is knowing that 100,000 words written and a 100,000 more won't change opinions or behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Yes!! Her experience was one of incest. Horrible, just awful. She has three children and are raising them to have a voice and to speak their minds. Never accept what is handed to you and never lower yourself. Someday I would like to meet her. She is an inspiration to us survivors of abuse. How her actions were deemed as "anti-male" is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is that given her voice and her actions, some men are threatened by this. Well **** them!!


You guys are closer, please do meet and share wonderful friendship together. 

I can't since I am so far away, we are only normal workers, if we do have money and time, we have to either go visit my family in China or his family in Canada, we have family responsibilities to fulfill. 

I don't think these men are being threatened by your ideas, just like you stand strongly for your idea, they stand strongly for theirs.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

michzz said:


> The hardest part of this whole thread is knowing that 100,000 words written and a 100,000 more won't change opinions or behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, true, true! 

We are just killing our time here. 

Doesn't solve any real issue in life!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> Brennan:
> 
> I hear you.
> 
> ...


Do I take myself too seriously? PM sometime and I will tell you exactly what goes on. It isn't jerk off material either. The male sex drive is powerful? Awesome! So he has the right to treat/view/imagine women exactly as he wants. No wonder Japan made female robots. No living, breathing woman would want him. Enjoy!


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Okay, not to throw another monkey in the wrench as they misquote. . .but what is Trenton's and Brennan's take on female on female porn?

Yeah, a guy is usually soliciting the two women into that. . .but have you ever seen some hot female-female porn. 

OMG. . .I have to say, after seeing some women kissing each other, I never kissed a woman the same again. The woman I am with says I am so gentle when I touch her, she told me it feels amazing, that I really know how to touch a woman.

Now. . .I'd like to say it's because I am a gifted, strapping stud. . .and believe me, I am  but isn't there an educational quality about porn to a certain degree? I mean, when I saw my first Playboy picture, I went wild with desire in my teens. . .but then I studied the anatomy, eventually decided I wanted to study biology, and so on. . .even read the Playboy articles, lol.

Where else are men supposed to get their information on how to please a woman? Women? Ha.

Don't get me started.

Ask a woman what she wants and 85.3% of the time, you'll get "I don't know." Now I know, being older, that the fraud of porn is a lot of it, a woman doesn't want - cum on her face, gagging, etc. There is a lot of chaffe, amongst the wheat to sort. . .but really, no ofense. . .women aren't really training their men, are they?

Either porn stays or you older women are going to have to start taking a couple 17 year old's under your wings. . .or under your legs. . .do that and I bet porn significantly diminishes it's presence. A 40 year old woman could handle a 17 year old.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Brennan,

You, Trenton, and Ian take yourselves seriously in your postings here. Greenpearl and I don't as a rule.

I could see you all both out in front of a sidewalk burning a flag and waving signs in a peace hippie demonstration or something.

That's not a bad thing. The world needs activists.

I am not one though.

I am not sure that activism always drives change and seeing a point of view from another side though, which is sometimes what is needed (compromise) to improve circumstances.

Humor has that capacity.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Either porn stays or you older women are going to have to start taking a couple 17 year old's under your wings. . .or under your legs. . .do that and I bet porn significantly diminishes it's presence. A 40 year old woman could handle a 17 year old.


Talk about activism. . .are you and Trenton ready to do your part?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I know you are trying to be funny but I think you missed alot of what Trenton and I were saying. He is suggesting that we are totally intolerant of male sexuality because we are intolerant of the further abuse of women in commercial porn and prostitution.
> Both Trenton and I have experience in this. I have posted that I did a film 20 years ago and the horrible experience it was and she runs a non-profit to help girls/women get out of the trade. He just continues to beat the drum that porn is awesome and wonderful and a man's God given right.
> I have mentioned that it isn't amateur porn I have an issue with. Those who willingly post webcams of themselves having sex for nothing more than voyeurs watching them and the couple getting turned on thinking about others watching or couples who make a film and release it....awesome! Our issue is with women who through sexual abuse and incest feel such little self worth that they get caught up in the world of porn or prostitution because they feel they have no other options.
> Even when we speak about our past, he continues to defend his right as "biological" and sees us as somehow anti-male, unprogressive and bitter women.
> His misogyny is oozing and he ends it with he is off to his daughter's birthday party. If porn is so awesome and does no harm to people, then maybe he should wish for his daughter to blow out her candles and wish to be a porn star.


Again with the misogyny. Name calling, nothing better. And while I probably wouldn't want my daughter to be a porn star, if she chose to do so I would support her to the best of my ability. I support a woman's right to choose whatever profession she wishes.

I never said porn didn't harm people. _Cotton candy_ harms people. Every industry harms people, in one way or another. I defended the modern commercial porn industry in America as being generally well-regulated and providing good jobs for people who wanted them, and I defended the right of men in general to choose the manner of their expression of sexuality without that choice being subject to women's approval. If women have the right to lay claim to express their sexuality in whatever way they choose, then men deserve the same right -- and historically and culturally, an important part of that expression is the experience of explicit sexual fantasy -- porn -- which I contend satisfies a primary aspect of male sexuality in general. 

That's what I've been doing, along with supporting arguments and commentary. Any other interpretation of my argument is off the mark.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Do I take myself too seriously? PM sometime and I will tell you exactly what goes on. It isn't jerk off material either. The male sex drive is powerful? Awesome! So he has the right to treat/view/imagine women exactly as he wants. No wonder Japan made female robots. No living, breathing woman would want him. Enjoy!


Really? My living, breathing wife seems pretty happy with me.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> Okay, not to throw another monkey in the wrench as they misquote. . .but what is Trenton's and Brennan's take on female on female porn?
> 
> Yeah, a guy is usually soliciting the two women into that. . .but have you ever seen some hot female-female porn.
> 
> ...



You know what I will take? A man who feels the exact same way I do about prostitution. A man who was raised by parents who taught him respect and dignity and to respect others respect and dignity.
A man who owns his own. 
Funny how you said you would never again make fun of us "older" women but you just did. I will continue to **** my husband of 17 years and rock his world. Who's world are you rocking?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I wasn't name calling, not even close.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't think any entrenched positions are going to shift.

And any attempts at humor will fall flat with this subject.

Food for thought.


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## Mike188 (Dec 29, 2009)

Signs Your Partner is Addicted to Internet Porn

- During foreplay, he's always double-clicking your G-spot.

- When he wants you to take off your pants, he says, "Scroll down."

- He tells everyone he's a pioneer in "palm computing."

- He's suing Playboy.com for repetitive stress injuries.

- When he sees a hot babe, he says, "I'd like to click on her."

- You look deep into his eyes and see a faint image of Asia Carrera burned into his corneas.

- As you undress, he takes out his credit card and tells you his birthday.

- During sex, he shouts, "Refresh! Refresh!"


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You know what Scanner? With your latest post, you repulse me. Rock on in your lonely world.
> You know what I will take? A man who feels the exact same way I do about prostitution. A man who was raised by parents who taught him respect and dignity and to respect others respect and dignity.
> A man who owns his own.
> Funny how you said you would never again make fun of us "older" women but you just did. I will continue to **** my husband of 17 years and rock his world. Who's world are you rocking?


Ok, I really understand where you are coming from, even if I disagree, but could you please explain to me what he said that was so bad? 

It might be just me, but I don't see it and I really want to understand you on this.

Also, uhm, I asked before, what is your take on hentai? Not just the male ones, but also the ones for females (mostly yaoi hentai). Also bad?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Wha? Wha? Wha? I feed the kids, grab a workout and put them to bed and I missed 1,500 threads? I can't keep up.

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree and then disagree some more because our differences of opinion are deeper than the sum of this thread


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Scanner, I'm not an activist or a flag burner/sign holder. I can laugh at both men and women. Yet, I am an action taker but my actions are not nearly as benign as sign holding. Much more a go to state rep and talk about issue/go to a rally but only talk to people to explain issue and get them to write letter. OK, maybe I am an activist but that doesn't mean I don't have a sense of humor. Take the picture below for example (look closely at the sign in the back in orange):










Whereas this is me and my middle son dropping off presents collected for a children's cancer ward and far more important to me than any sign:










My only point is that we all can do better, for ourselves and for others. We should always be thoughtful about how our actions are affecting others. If we slip up, fine. I do ALL the time but where are we really getting. Dudes like porn. I think porn is bad and not because I'm jealous of the big boobs and stomachs (even though I sort of am at times) but because I don't like what it does to women as a whole.

Men love women. Women love men. DUH. So what's up? We can't come to a better resolve than men are misogynists and women are butt's who don't understand a man's desires and so shall be doomed to be replaced by robots?

Nooooooooezzzzz!


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

I understand Brennan's and Trenton's PoV as far as porn industry attracting to their midst those women that were abused. I assume all this time legal porn has been discussed, right?

If that 18yo or 21yo woman that was abused as a kid or teenager ends up making money starring in a porn movie, I ask you how is it porn industry's fault? Why lay the blame at the porn industry? Why not look back at the family, environment that woman grew up in? Because that is much harder to do? Because it's hard to look at oneself and into oneself as a society?

Legal porn in that regard is a scapegoat. It's very easy to put blame at the porn's door, even when it comes to sex in marriage, because it is much harder to look for and acknowledge one's faults that may contribute to or even cause sexless marriage.

It's a common occurrence when it comes to sexless marriage to come up with reasoning, like "he may be addicted to porn" (I really can't get past the idea of someone being addicted to stills or motion pictures) or "he may be gay". I admit it is very hard to self diagnose one's marriage if a spouse is reluctant to communicate.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Ceiling Cat is Watching this Thread.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Just another opinion here.

I enjoy porn - I am drawn to it and I believe most men are. I don't indulge in it very often - and I've certainly never given it THIS much thought. Fascinating thread as you are both very passionate, articulate and persuasive.

Ian - you may be right.

Trenton - you may be right.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I won't post anything more about porn. Clearly it bothers me and I took it too far. I apologize to those I offended and will just agree to disagree.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Brennan said:


> I won't post anything more about porn. Clearly it bothers me and I took it too far. I apologize to those I offended and will just agree to disagree.


Oh, come on, don't give up Brennan  

At least check out my update on my other porn thread


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Amplexor said:


> Ceiling Cat is Watching this Thread.


I LOVE LOL cats. Haz Chezbrgr? kthanksby


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Brennan/Trenton,

Apology accepted. Don't think 2x about it.

But I have to ask Draguna's question - what about what I said made you so angry to lash out at me, insulting I was lonely?

It's very common, being a Moderate Libra all of my life, to have the two extremes lash out at Moderates, even having more respect for each other, than a person who straddles the fence. If you read my posts, I do make a point that males are abusing young and unready females in this industry and even Ian can't convince me otherwise.

. .anyway. . .I think, if I recall, is what I was saying is that pornography has an educational quality about it.

Do you and Trenton take issue with that? I mean beyond those "soft porn" couples videos showing different positions in a robotical type of format.

I mean, "standard porn", if there is a standard.

Having a good (operative word - good) performer showing cunnilingus, how a woman tends to rock vs. thrust when on top, and other "technique issues" (like I mentioned kissing). .. even just how a man "takes a woman" during sex. . .I was just sharing - it was porn that gave me what I have in my armamentum as a lover.

Not the Church.

Not Talk About Marriage.

Not Dad.

Not my dumbbutt buddies in the lifeguard lockerroom when I was younger.

Porn.

You want to know what? Personally, I think it sucks if you want to be a student of sexuality, you have to turn to porn. But that's all there was for me and I imagine a lot of men.

And guess what? It's on men. Yup. It's all on us as you women lie back, spread you legs and "get prepared" for the main event.

I was just saying, "Give us an instruction manual" (or tutor) and I bet porn production and consumption drops. Totally eliminated? I doubt it.

I am trying to find a commonground between the two activist sides here.

Even now, I am still continually fascinated by women and their sexual desires and the wide variety of them. The woman I with - she wants everythign to be so gentle, so sensual. . .then there are these married women at work who constantly talk about getting a big **** and having their legs hoisted back behind their ears and getting pounded. 

So even that "rough porn" seems to have something instructional to say about female sexuality.

I say if women want some change on this, they are going to literally have to take the penis into their own hands, not talk to a politician. Gawd.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Yup, agreed. My gf, while sexually open doesn't really tell me what she wants. She doesn't really know. She writes erotic fiction and they are really good. So I really have to read them closely to know what her current mood is, while checking porn also teaches me new stuff we try once in a while.

Anyway, Brennan, please don't go. Like miss Hall once said a loooong time ago: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

And I do actualy approve of what you say, just don't agree. I like your viewpoint and how you stay your course. Just wish you could understand ours (not agree).

Either way, what I'd like to really get your opinion on, is hentai. From the normal stuff (like Darling) to the more hardcore (Bible Black), tentacle stuff and homosexual stuff (yuri and yaoi hentai).


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

The debate in the thread is fine. We are just reminding those posting to keep it polite. No blood, no foul.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Porn is ok, I enjoy it more when I'm single, than when I'm dating or in a committed relationship.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Draguna said:


> Yup, agreed. My gf, while sexually open doesn't really tell me what she wants. She doesn't really know. She writes erotic fiction and they are really good. So I really have to read them closely to know what her current mood is, while checking porn also teaches me new stuff we try once in a while.
> 
> Anyway, Brennan, please don't go. Like miss Hall once said a loooong time ago: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
> 
> ...


While the cartoon stuff is not my cup of tea, I would find it hard for anyone to object to their spouse looking at cartoon sex. That said, I am not sure if this stuff gets really violent.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

hubby said:


> Ian, how exactly did you hack into MWIL's account


Funny!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

hubby said:


> While the cartoon stuff is not my cup of tea, I would find it hard for anyone to object to their spouse looking at cartoon sex. That said, I am not sure if this stuff gets really violent.


Yeah, ok, real turn off for me as well. But I guess if it gets some people off, why not. It's a good out.

Not to hijack your topic, but what about cartoon child pornography (so no real children harmed)? I do not like it, but I really think that if it keeps certain people from abusing real children, it is al ok. Any opinion on that?

Just to point out, I read a research once (will have to look it up, seemed somewhat reliable, didn't read in depth) that the % of rapists vs men who like women is about the same as the % of child rapists vs total amount of pedophiles.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Draguna said:


> Not to hijack your topic, but what about cartoon child pornography (so no real children harmed)? I do not like it, but I really think that if it keeps certain people from abusing real children, it is al ok. Any opinion on that?


That is where I was heading. My only boundaries on porn (cartoon or real) is child and extreme violence/real non-consensual.



Draguna said:


> Just to point out, I read a research once (will have to look it up, seemed somewhat reliable, didn't read in depth) that the % of rapists vs men who like women is about the same as the % of child rapists vs total amount of pedophiles.


Either too many percentages or not enough caffeine...can't wrap my head around that one... and I am a finance guy.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Yeah, ok, real turn off for me as well. But I guess if it gets some people off, why not. It's a good out.
> 
> Not to hijack your topic, but what about cartoon child pornography (so no real children harmed)? I do not like it, but I really think that if it keeps certain people from abusing real children, it is al ok. Any opinion on that?


Absolutely against that. Even if it's cartoons. The very idea alone 



> Just to point out, I read a research once (will have to look it up, seemed somewhat reliable, didn't read in depth) that the % of rapists vs men who like women is about the same as the % of child rapists vs total amount of pedophiles.


They probably meant "vs total amount of _suspected _pedophiles". That percentage was probably extrapolated.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

hubby said:


> That is where I was heading. My only boundaries on porn (cartoon or real) is child and extreme violence/real non-consensual.
> 
> 
> 
> Either too many percentages or not enough caffeine...can't wrap my head around that one... and I am a finance guy.


Heh, well, meant that the ratio of rapists vs normal men is actually equal to the ratio of sexual child abusers to all pedophiles.
So was wondering. If it animation and helps them stay off real children, is it still a bad thing?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Absolutely against that. Even if it's cartoons. The very idea alone
> 
> 
> 
> They probably meant "vs total amount of _suspected _pedophiles". That percentage was probably extrapolated.


Agreed that it was probably extrapolated, read it 2 years ago, forgot all details so will not be speaking about the validity of the 3 studies.

Just saying, I'm not talking about cartoon porn in which a child is raped, never seen those. Talking about stuff with loli characters. (consenting)

I have to agree that cartoon child rape would freak me out more than loli characters.

Either way, lets stop this here. It's just me liking to debate stuff, this is out of the scope of the topic and marriage.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I don't like any kind of anime porn, they all look like children. I'm also not into the porn with women who look like they are 15 even though they are of age.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

hubby said:


> I LOVE LOL cats. Haz Chezbrgr? kthanksby


Very cute, I have three cats of my own.

They are something, aren't they?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Very cute, I have three cats of my own.
> 
> They are something, aren't they?


Have you gone to the "LOL Cats" site? It is awesome. Takes a strange sense of humor, I fall off my chair on some of them:

I Can Has Cheezburger?

:rofl:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan, never apologize for being a passionate person! It is a very admirable quality in you and when your opinion is in the minority it can be overwhelming but the majority is certainly not always right...just more willing to do things a minority wouldn't.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Brennan, never apologize for being a passionate person! It is a very admirable quality in you and when your opinion is in the minority it can be overwhelming but the majority is certainly not always right...just more willing to do things a minority wouldn't.


I am not apologizing for being a passionate person, I am apologizing for taking it too personal and in turn lashing out at Ian and Scannerguard. That was uncool and totally uncalled for.
No wonder I didn't do so well on the debate team.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I am not apologizing for being a passionate person, I am apologizing for taking it too personal and in turn lashing out at Ian and Scannerguard. That was uncool and totally uncalled for.
> No wonder I didn't do so well on the debate team.


Ahha! I didn't read where you did this. I did miss a few pages of thread though. I could clearly see you going over and squeezing the life out of Ian's pecker if this were a formal debate. :rofl:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Ahha! I didn't read where you did this. I did miss a few pages of thread though. I could clearly see you going over and squeezing the life out of Ian's pecker if this were a formal debate. :rofl:


That happened to me a couple of times in High School.

Like I said. I'm _very _persuasive.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That happened to me a couple of times in High School.
> 
> Like I said. I'm _very _persuasive.


Okay, that was funny. :rofl:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That happened to me a couple of times in High School.
> 
> Like I said. I'm _very _persuasive.


Or egotistical but hey, if your pecker is getting squeezed, who cares right?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

See Brennan, it was funny and yet I still took the opportunity to insult him. Sheesh. hehehehe


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I am not apologizing for being a passionate person, I am apologizing for taking it too personal and in turn lashing out at Ian and Scannerguard. That was uncool and totally uncalled for.
> No wonder I didn't do so well on the debate team.


Calm down, relax, inhale, exhale........................

What they are saying is no big deal........................

You girls got me worked up a few times, but now I am all fine...............Add, I got you worked up too............................

We just have different opinion, we don't have to agree with each other, but we have to respect each other for having the right to have different opinion, just like I respect you for being this passionate....................


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Calm down, relax, inhale, exhale........................
> 
> What they are saying is no big deal........................
> 
> ...


Exactly, GP. This is why I will stay off future porn threads. I just get worked up.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I do think it's important to provide the opposite viewpoint on issues like this though because otherwise it's just a bunch of people saying...Yeah! I agree!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I do think it's important to provide the opposite viewpoint on issues like this though because otherwise it's just a bunch of people saying...Yeah! I agree!


Yes, for sure. But it's HOW you do it that is important. I got all worked up. 

Anyways, I will hold true to my beliefs.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Yes, for sure. But it's HOW you do it that is important. I got all worked up.
> 
> Anyways, I will hold true to my beliefs.


Great, wouldn't want anyone to change their opinion because some guys and a few gals said that they disagreed. Would be a bit wishy-washy.

Hope we did get you understanding us a bit though. I'd say most of us did understand you two...I think... You know, I don't know actually :scratchhead: At least some I think.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Great, wouldn't want anyone to change their opinion because some guys and a few gals said that they disagreed. Would be a bit wishy-washy.
> 
> Hope we did get you understanding us a bit though. I'd say most of us did understand you two...I think... You know, I don't know actually :scratchhead: At least some I think.


Changing your opinion if given great, factual information that is not based upon what one deems experience and personal desires is not wishy-washy, it's great! *hint* *hint*


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Great, wouldn't want anyone to change their opinion because some guys and a few gals said that they disagreed. Would be a bit wishy-washy.
> 
> Hope we did get you understanding us a bit though. I'd say most of us did understand you two...I think... You know, I don't know actually :scratchhead: At least some I think.


Apparently I was not understood at all as the question was asked on another thread if I dislike porn/ever watched it. I thought I made it crystal clear that I dislike COMMERCIAL porn and the abuses/drugs/violence/degredation that comes with it. I have no issue whatsoever with amateur porn and I watch that often with the hub!! I have no idea how that got so misunderstood. :scratchhead: Eh, no sense in crying about it now.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I do think it's important to provide the opposite viewpoint on issues like this though because otherwise it's just a bunch of people saying...Yeah! I agree!


No! I disagree!

Just putting that out there.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

michzz said:


> No! I disagree!
> 
> Just putting that out there.


I appreciate that! :rofl:


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Changing your opinion if given great, factual information that is not based upon what one deems experience and personal desires is not wishy-washy, it's great! *hint* *hint*


Woman, are you trying to manipulate how I feel about this? This is an OUTRAGE!!!  

Nah, but you are right. But just switching isn't correct as well (probably means you didn't have an opnion anyway). Experience, empathy, morals and values can affect what you think about a subject. It is not wrong to have them weigh heavily on a subject like this. e.g. abortions. 

P.S. I love people who like to discuss stuff with me, sure most was with Ian, but he kinda posted what I was thinking, so felt as if you two were debating me. Except in that case I would have lost the debate after first 3 posts


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Hey, Ian, watch this video...this is what women are doing with robots. Hmmmm Hmmmm Hmmmm

Cynthia Breazeal: The rise of personal robots | Video on TED.com


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Ooooh more women and their robots:

Heather Knight: Silicon-based comedy | Video on TED.com


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Ooooh more women and their robots:
> 
> Heather Knight: Silicon-based comedy | Video on TED.com


I'm very aware of the phenomenon -- although, if anything, it's more advanced than that.

Y'all probably don't pay a lot of attention to things like advances in cybernetics and materials engineering and such, but thanks to a number of important breakthroughs recently, we're about eight years away from being able to build a fully-independent robotic frame with skin realistic enough to pass muster. It's not all latex, believe me. Imagine skin that is as soft or as rough as you ask it to be, and which can change colors on command. Imagine algorithms that can mimic emotional human behavior with appropriate responses so complex that you won't be able to distinguish it from a human. It always knows the right thing to say, and it's AI is sophisticated enough to pick up on your non-verbal cues and say the exact right thing to you every time. A partner who always wants to do exactly what you want to do. Ever-hard penises. Vaginas that vibrate, massage, and caress during intercourse. "Your plastic pal who's fun to play with" could be a hot Latin dude with bulging pecs, perfect abs, and who always wants to listen about how your day went, or an ever-slender, always-horny perpetually 19 year old sex kitten who loves playing World of Warcraft and thinks Star Wars is just the coolest movie EVER.

It's coming. You can tease me about it, but it's a far, far more serious threat to the well-being of interpersonal relationships than you give it credit for. In twelve to thirteen years they'll be able to pass the Turing test. After that, they'll be virtually indistinguishable from real humans at a casual glance. 

No more child sexual slavery -- probably not much prostitution, either, unless you count machines you rent by the hour. But not much incentive for the average man to make much of an effort to woo the average woman, either. When you can order a stone fox off the internet and have your every female ideal filled to your specifications, real human beings will have a very hard time competing with that.

Sure, sure, it's sci-fi -- totally outrageous, right?

So was the idea of free porn getting piped into every home in America, 24 hours a day, *back in 1985*. Impossible. As laughable as having star-treky computer pads where you could watch TV anytime, anywhere, and you could carry them around. Or a magic electronic book that instantly allows you to buy and read any newspaper or book anywhere you want. Crazy, crazy stuff. Sci-fi stuff. Never happen, right?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
Interesting thoughts all around. I hadn't thought about it taking the place of child sexual slavery or prostitution. That would be fantastic but I doubt that is possible. In many parts of the world girls are abducted in to the sex trade so they are literally free to the abductor. Others are sold for as little as $500. I cannot imagine somebody who would kidnap children for their own profit being willing to plunk down the amount of a Honda. I wish it could happen but I doubt it. 
Something else you mentioned about it taking the place of human relationships, don't we all also crave the human aspect. Emotions, true love, empathy and compassion. How would a robot be able to express these? I understand a robot being used for sex, I get that. But taking the place of interpersonal relationships?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

It's actually a hobby interest of mine. I began reading sci-fi books as a kid. Now that sci-fi is becoming a viable possibility. It's impossible to predict where the technology will go.

My point to you was that it's sad that you mention Japan developing a sex bot. I admit it was relevant to your case (sort of) but it negates the beautiful intricacies of authentic interaction as well as miscounts the many other more important uses for robots.

Still, having robots get rid of child slavery and non Fair Trade practices will have its own consequences. There is a reason they allow themselves to be treated so poorly, it's because they need the money. Our economy and ways of undervaluing poor humans in general would really have to shift for it to be done properly. Do you have faith in the leaders of wealthy nations to be careful with this shift?

The second piece on robots not so interesting, I actually found it humorous. Watch the first, it's talking more about the possibilities for future use. It's much like stem cell research and cloning. As technology becomes more and more advanced we must be careful with how we use it.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Mmm. . .I am not sure "pacification", "placation" and "indulgence" via cartoons or robots is the answer to the child molestation perversion, although I appreciate the liberal slant once again of TAM.

That's the rub with perversions like that - it starts with this, evolves to that, the perpertrator is never satisfied. That can be the rub with "vanilla porn."

Something tells me statistics would be unchanged with the inventions of this, perhaps maybe be even made worse, as society would give a "stamp of approval" for leaning that way.

That being said, it would probably be a little beneficial to society to at least *try *to understand this problem rather than just send the perpertrator to prision, where he'll undoubtedly be killed at the hands of thugs. Try to figure out why a person does this or even entertains thoughts of it. I suppose it's been studied, but not widely talked about because it then humanizes the perpetrator, which is hard to do.

Complicating matters in our society is a child is not a child is not a child.

We got that lecture when i was beach lifeguarding from the captain. You'd have 14 year old "girls" approach you, who pretty much looked like fully blossomed "women", ready to go. In looks. In body. In demeanor. In pheromones.

You do that nowadays and you are on a list the rest of your life and unable to live within 100 yards of any school. I pretty much pass the message onto my sons that women/girls are helpless and unable to decide until age 18.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> It's actually a hobby interest of mine. I began reading sci-fi books as a kid. Now that sci-fi is becoming a viable possibility. It's impossible to predict where the technology will go.


Not impossible. I'm a sci-fi writer, and I do it all the time. I've even been correct, a fair amount of times. That's why I'm up on the sex-bot thing, because like internet porn, no one will be paying attention until it's too late, and you can get a Sexbot for $10,000 FOB and never have to worry about impressing a girl again.

If anything, I'm underplaying the potential devastation to human sexuality that could arise.



Trenton said:


> My point to you was that it's sad that you mention Japan developing a sex bot. I admit it was relevant to your case (sort of) but it negates the beautiful intricacies of authentic interaction as well as miscounts the many other more important uses for robots.


But when societal rules for authentic interaction become too challenging, as they have in Japan, then you have a population of men who have to devote a significant amount of time, energy, and resources to negotiate the rules and many of them (if not most) will simply opt-out. Right now they're doing it with porn, sophisticated masturbators and occasional trips to brothels, because honest interaction between men and women is just a hell of a lot harder. When you can order a robotic geisha who will never, ever judge you, no matter how you look or what you do, for the same price as a cheap wedding that is going to be an irresistible draw for Japanese men. And when American men get a chance to try them out . . . well, how many Sony Walkmans got sold?



Trenton said:


> Still, having robots get rid of child slavery and non Fair Trade practices will have its own consequences. There is a reason they allow themselves to be treated so poorly, it's because they need the money. Our economy and ways of undervaluing poor humans in general would really have to shift for it to be done properly. Do you have faith in the leaders of wealthy nations to be careful with this shift?


The same leaders who have such a good handle on global climate catastrophe?

No, the Robot Boom, when it comes in a decade or so, is going to do to the third world economy what the computer boom did to the first-world economies. Over-all productivity will rise dramatically . . . and they'll be able to fire 1 in 3 workers. 

And that's the thing. Imagine the $10k basic model sexbot. Talk about a perfect 24 hour a day prostitute with no danger of disease, pregnancy, or a methed-up pimp stabbing you in the kidney. You'll be able to rent these things 24 hours a day. Need a date for Saturday? SexBot 2000 model "Asia" will come by at 6:00, programmed to watch you eat your dinner and laugh at your jokes, and then indulge you in any sexual whim at all, for around $100.00. The best possible programmed companionship and the kinkiest sex you can imagine, guaranteed. Whatever you're into, she's into. 

Why take a chick out who's just going to grill you about your finances and aspirations and then judge the hell out of you while she's in the bathroom and then stalk you when you don't call within 24 hours when you can relax with a SexBot? And if they can cook, too . . . 



Trenton said:


> The second piece on robots not so interesting, I actually found it humorous. Watch the first, it's talking more about the possibilities for future use. It's much like stem cell research and cloning. As technology becomes more and more advanced we must be careful with how we use it.


We won't be. We rarely are. Especially not about entertainment-oriented technology, especially not where sex is concerned. Legally and ethically speaking, a SexBot would just be a big vibrator, even though it can walk, screw, and is fluent in over two million forms of communication. Once the Japanese perfect it (and they will) and sell it to us (and they will) then the genie will be out of the bottle.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> But when *societal rules for authentic interaction* become too challenging, as they have in Japan, then you have a population of men who have to devote a significant amount of time, energy, and resources to negotiate the rules and many of them (if not most) will simply opt-out. Right now they're doing it with porn, sophisticated masturbators and occasional trips to brothels, because honest interaction between men and women is just a hell of a lot harder. When you can order a robotic geisha who will never, ever judge you, no matter how you look or what you do, for the same price as a cheap wedding that is going to be an irresistible draw for Japanese men. And when American men get a chance to try them out . . . well, how many Sony Walkmans got sold?


This is already happening in the West. Today's teenagers are much more comfortable and actually choose to communicate with their friends via facebook, text messages etc. rather than doing the actual real life, face-to-face socializing. Sexbots would just be their next best thing.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Ultimately, what will happen is that all you folks who couldn't imagine free porn in 1985 will get bored with your sexbots and want an "actual" person. But I wonder if it will be considered a fetish. You know, like someone who is excited by shoes? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Saw a documentary on a guy who had a closet full of blow up dolls that cost anywhere from $7k - $20k each (OK I watch A LOT of documentaries heh). He was a complete anti-social person who was afraid of women. The entire piece left me sad and I thought, well he may have an outlet for his penis to cum in but his sadness and inability to associate with women for the joy that comes from intimacy and family remains.

Scanner, would never suggest robot for child sex abusers. We were talking relief from child slavery in work force which I wouldn't suggest either unless there are things in place to support and enable the success of the children enslaved.

reaching shore, I have a fourteen year old and can vouch that even with social media and technology, she still behaves like a 14 year old. I'm also a huge fan of social media and internet interactions. None of them limit my ability to have a fulfilling real life. They are more of an enhancement.

So, let's say that's what the robot becomes...a side by side enhancement. Perhaps it won't be the negative predicted then. Although getting through the hurdle of a wife having hurt feelings because it feels like the husband is cheating on her with a living doll, could be a problem.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

michzz said:


> Ultimately, what will happen is that all you folks who couldn't imagine free porn in 1985 will get bored with your sexbots and want an "actual" person. But I wonder if it will be considered a fetish. You know, like someone who is excited by shoes?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmmm so you like shoes, eh?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Reminds me of a story.

When I had my bachelorette party in 1985, I was given a blow up doll as a gift, all the gals at the party took turns "blowing" him up until he was about 5'9" with all "working" parts. Well, after the stripper left, the gals at the party and I went downtown to continue the party and I threw what we referred to as "Marty" in the back end of my Vega hatchback.

Well we went downtown and partied until the wee hours and I headed back home. I lived on a military base at the time and had to go through the gate to get back on. When I stopped to show them my military ID, they noticed "Marty" in the back end of my Vega and thought I had a naked man in my car. They made me pull over and pop the hatchback so they could make sure I didn't have some drunk, strange, naked dude in my car.

It was funny and embarrasing at the same time.

So the morale of the story is...keep those blow up dolls at home, especially if they are neekid and don't take them out for a drive!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Reminds me of a story.
> 
> When I had my bachelorette party in 1985, I was given a blow up doll as a gift, all the gals at the party took turns "blowing" him up until he was about 5'9" with all "working" parts. Well, after the stripper left, the gals at the party and I went downtown to continue the party and I threw what we referred to as "Marty" in the back end of my Vega hatchback.
> 
> ...


Actually, we've seen an increase of sales of male blow-up dolls for women, but not for the reason you think. A lot of women in large urban areas get them to strap into their front passenger seat so they can travel in the HOV lane. It's also a security thing, if someone sees what they think of as someone waiting in your car, they're less likely to try to car-jack you.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Trenton said:


> reaching shore, I have a fourteen year old and can vouch that even with social media and technology, she still behaves like a 14 year old. I'm also a huge fan of social media and internet interactions. None of them limit my ability to have a fulfilling real life. They are more of an enhancement.
> 
> So, let's say that's what the robot becomes...a side by side enhancement. Perhaps it won't be the negative predicted then. Although getting through the hurdle of a wife having hurt feelings because it feels like the husband is cheating on her with a living doll, could be a problem.


Yeah, I believe you. You keep an eye on your kids. A lot of parents don't 

I remembered that a few years ago I read about this exclusive sexbot that one could purchase (full customization, from hair color to "personality"). 

Ekhmm.. "US-based company TrueCompany is poised to launch Roxxxy – the world’s first sex robot". Version 9, BTW.

Roxxxy the US$7,000 companion/sex robot (NSFW)


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Yeah, I believe you. You keep an eye on your kids. A lot of parents don't
> 
> I remembered that a few years ago I read about this exclusive sexbot that one could purchase (full customization, from hair color to "personality").
> 
> ...



What's coming will make Roxxxy look like a dime-store toy.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

LOL No doubt about it. From what I have seen Actroids look freaky/amazing.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Yeah, I believe you. You keep an eye on your kids. A lot of parents don't
> 
> I remembered that a few years ago I read about this exclusive sexbot that one could purchase (full customization, from hair color to "personality").
> 
> ...


Ah yes Roxxxy...featured in the doc I watched. Doesn't the founder say that 9/11 was his inspiration for the company? I got to look for the documentary. My husband and I laughed all the way through.

I guess the point is that technology is not going to stop coming and it will continue to connect. Working to find positive uses for it to solve social issues and make real connections is very important. Sex bots, even if exactly like women, not so much.

I'm sure one women's group will pick up on them and they'll become controversial. Now when she can give birth, raise a family and provide a lifetime of upset and joys...then we might have a problem but I'm sure there will be a male counterpart so perhaps not so much.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

I am going to be very cynical here. Sure, the creators of the technology probably did it for the technology alone. But when their product actually hits the market, guess which segment will offer it first? Sex sells, and business is business.

I was actually told once (not sure, whether it was in all seriousness or not) that if it wasn't for porn, Internet wouldn't be what it is today. CERN invented Intranet/Internet, but what jump-started it was porn.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> I am going to be very cynical here. Sure, the creators of the technology probably did it for the technology alone. But when their product actually hits the market, guess which segment will offer it first? Sex sells, and business is business.
> 
> I was actually told once (not sure, whether it was in all seriousness or not) that if it wasn't for porn, Internet wouldn't be what it is today. CERN invented Intranet/Internet, but what jump-started it was porn.


It's not only internet. Porn industry has always been very quick to adopt any new technology. It chose VHS over betamax and guess which one didn't succeed. They were so quick to switch to DVD's, HD video (broadcasts, online, HD-DVD's and Blu-Ray discs), streaming video, online payments, 3D porn etc. Hell, there is even 1920's porn that you can find on the net which completely blew my mind.

Won't post it here but never expected to see 1920's porn video with a threesome MFM, and not just that, also gay interaction.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Wait, wait, wait.. We shouldn't glorify porn, should we? LOL


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Trenton said:


> Hmmmm so you like shoes, eh?


Lol! Sure, that's me. I've been outed--not!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

michzz said:


> Lol! Sure, that's me. I've been outed--not!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will file that interesting factoid under michzz/fetishes in my mental database for sure! You must follow VT around on the forums just for a glimpse at her avatar?...:rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton,
He's sportin' a pair of pumps as we speak.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> He's sportin' a pair of pumps as wel speak.


So hawt! I'm pretty sure that could be considered porn as well! Woot!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> So hawt! I'm pretty sure that could be considered porn as well! Woot!


Hey Michzz? Do you go for looks or comfort? :rofl:


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

You ever try for a Jimmy chu in an 11.5 wide?

It's impossible!

Ok, I'm out. Have your fun ladies. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, we've seen an increase of sales of male blow-up dolls for women, but not for the reason you think. A lot of women in large urban areas get them to strap into their front passenger seat so they can travel in the HOV lane. It's also a security thing, if someone sees what they think of as someone waiting in your car, they're less likely to try to car-jack you.


That's funny. I'm live a small enough town that we don't have a HOV lane.

Not sure I'd go that far, but hey - different strokes, right?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

michzz said:


> You ever try for a Jimmy chu in an 11.5 wide?
> 
> It's impossible!
> 
> ...



Ahem, that's "Choo" my dear. But props for even knowing about these shoes!!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Ahem, that's "Choo" my dear. But props for even knowing about these shoes!!


OK, must be something wrong with me because I didn't know how to spell it and the only reason I got the reference is because I've seen "Sex in the City". :rofl:


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## lucky_guy (Jan 23, 2011)

So I sit down next to the W and find..... she's watching a "mystery" movie on the Lifetime channel which turns out to be a very, very soft porn romance thing dressed up as something else. 

ok, ok, so not so porno....


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