# What to do? What to think?



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

About three weeks ago, I had given my H the "ultimatum" and told him that if he would continue having EA's/A's that I wanted a divorce (and I was not prepared to back down unless he could answer me with a straight truthful "I will not continue") he fought me a little bit. Gave me all sorts of complaints about how unfair I was being, and so on. 

I didn't back down, and it took three days before he finally agreed that what he was doing was wrong. He finally after so long, broke down and told me how he hated feeling this way, and hated having to lie all the time and hide. He said every day feels worse and worse. I allowed him to talk and express what he was feeling. 

We discussed it for a while. Then he agreed that he does not want to be doing these things anymore, and promised me (literally promised) he would never do this to me or us again. He said that I would see the change in him (because he has been in this type of thinking for years and years) In the end I told him that now that he has said to me, he better start following it or I will not hesitate to get a divorce. (I'm just so fed up with the games, lies, deceit) 

For the past two and a half weeks he has deleted accounts he used for his A's, allowed me into his phone so that I had full access to it, and has not been on his phone. He has however gone out with his work friends for drinks in that past three weeks because they were being laid off from work...(which sounded like legit outings by how he assured it)

However, I'm starting to feel that "feeling" again in the pit of my stomach. Because I cannot trust him fully at this point, I had been checking his phone every time he came home from work to see if he was living out his promise. But my H has recently started complaining about it, saying just to leave it alone and start living life normally with him. Enjoy life, and don't keep doing this is what he was saying to me. 

Then two nights ago, he told me he was going to change his passcode because he does not want me to be stressing us both out, and that I just have to trust him. Also that if one of the many women he was contacting texts or calls, he doesn't want me to be angry and start a fight. So, changed his passcode he did.

I'm very stressed over this. I feel like he is reverting back to his old ways. But then I think maybe he just wants me to start trusting him? I am especially on edge right now because we are now renting a house in a city where he is working so that we can be together (he works out of town most times).....and I decided that I don't want to be dragging the kids around with us anymore to drive back home and maintain our home where we live (we keep driving back home every week and a half on his days off) 

So I mentioned staying here for the weekend while he goes back to maintain the house. 

Should I be going with him? Or should I be "trusting" him? 
Am I right about the phone thing? Is he wrong? 
Could he be cheating again? Would he risk me divorcing him?


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

He cheated. That means YOU get to decide when you start trusting him again, not him. It may be inconvenient or stressful or annoying for him to have you constantly looking over his shoulder but that's the price he has to pay for losing your trust. It has only been a couple of weeks. If you aren't ready to trust yet, that is your right and is perfectly normal and understandable.

You laid down the boundaries and now you need to stick to them. Full disclosure and access to his phone, email accounts, etc or divorce. The choice is up to him. You just need to be ready to follow through. Trust your gut. It wasn't wrong the first time, was it?


----------



## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

For the past two and a half weeks he has deleted accounts he used for his A's, allowed me into his phone so that I had full access to it, and has not been on his phone. He has however gone out with his work friends for drinks in that past three weeks because they were being laid off from work...(which sounded like legit outings by how he assured it)

However, I'm starting to feel that "feeling" again in the pit of my stomach. Because I cannot trust him fully at this point, I had been checking his phone every time he came home from work to see if he was living out his promise. But my H has recently started complaining about it, saying just to leave it alone and start living life normally with him. Enjoy life, and don't keep doing this is what he was saying to me. 


I would honor this feeling you are feeling thats why God gave us this ability to sense right from wrong imo 


Then two nights ago, he told me he was going to change his passcode because he does not want me to be stressing us both out, and that I just have to trust him. Also that if one of the many women he was contacting texts or calls, he doesn't want me to be angry and start a fight. So, changed his passcode he did.

He is up to his old tricks it sounds like transparency is transparency 

And I agree with what just said that you set your boundaries and you need to stick to them marriage is between 2 parties not 3 or 4 etc and i feel he should be doing some heavy lifting in order to restore your trust I for one would not have given him 3 days to answer he either wants to be married or not if not then adidos life is too short to put up with unacceptable behavior their are plenty of other folks out their who would not treat you this way start by working on yourself develop some old or new hobbies contact old friends and start exercising doing things just for you and your children if you have kids If you decide you would like to recover your relationship then set the bar and if this what your hubby wants then start with mc and transparency 

Good Luck


----------



## Left With 4.5 (Aug 4, 2012)

justonelife said:


> He cheated. That means YOU get to decide when you start trusting him again, not him. It may be inconvenient or stressful or annoying for him to have you constantly looking over his shoulder but that's the price he has to pay for losing your trust. It has only been a couple of weeks. If you aren't ready to trust yet, that is your right and is perfectly normal and understandable.
> 
> You laid down the boundaries and now you need to stick to them. Full disclosure and access to his phone, email accounts, etc or divorce. The choice is up to him. You just need to be ready to follow through. Trust your gut. It wasn't wrong the first time, was it?


I agree with justonelife. 

I'm also wondering if after a couple of weeks, he decided he didn't want to completely end all of his EAs and just keep a one or two as a backup just incase it didn't work out with you?


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm definitely not ready to trust him. I am fully prepared to leave if he cannot stick to his promise. 

If he can agree to let me see is phone..what do you think I should do about him going back home alone?


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Left With 4.5 said:


> I agree with justonelife.
> 
> I'm also wondering if after a couple of weeks, he decided he didn't want to completely end all of his EAs and just keep a one or two as a backup just incase it didn't work out with you?



He has done this in the past....so I have the very same suspicion. He has a very low self-esteem unfortunately and thats what I worry about


----------



## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

If there was one A in a relationship, I can see it being overcome. But multiple? For years? No way. He gave up trust a long long long time ago.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

BeachGuy said:


> If there was one A in a relationship, I can see it being overcome. But multiple? For years? No way. He gave up trust a long long long time ago.



I have been very patient, but I have also swept a lot under the rug before. Thats why now I really need help. This is such a deep dark thing for him to overcome. And now that I've given him that ultimatum (which I've never done before) I feel like he might just be hiding things better so that he doesn't get caught.. and as I've said, I'm unsure now if it's my gut or distrust talking.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Two weeks of transparency isn't good enough.


----------



## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> Then two nights ago, he told me he was going to change his passcode because he does not want me to be stressing us both out


The nerve on him...


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

somethingelse said:


> I'm definitely not ready to trust him. I am fully prepared to leave if he cannot stick to his promise.
> 
> If he can agree to let me see is phone..what do you think I should do about him going back home alone?


The important question is - What do YOU think of letting him go back home alone? If you think it will bother you, have you constantly wondering what he's up to, etc, then don't allow it to happen.

Right now, things are still very raw and fresh. You need time to see if this reconciliation is true or not. I wouldn't do anything to make yourself feel uneasy at all. He needs to be showing you that you can trust him. Actions speak louder than words. What are his actions telling you?


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Love that excuse for changing his password. He is full of sh*t.



somethingelse said:


> This is such a deep dark thing for him to overcome.


He has to want to overcome it. 

If his issue is really one of low self-esteem--what this really translates to is NOT "I'm not good enough at anything"--it's I'M NOT WORTHY OF LOVE FROM ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING, AND I NEVER WILL BE. That is what he has to overcome.

This is why it is crucial that little children feel love. This is why. They don't just need to believe that they are loveable. It has to be part of their CORE BEING, who they were from BEFORE they have memories.

This type of problem requires serious counseling, the very best money can buy, twice a week for quite a while. Does he have the dedication it takes for this?

If I were you--I'd separate from him entirely. I'd tell him he needs to attend individual counseling with an excellent counselor 2x a week for at least 3 months, and then once a week after that for a long time. He may have been an abuse victim, so that is something to take into account when finding a counselor.

Then I'd go about my own life improving myself, living the best life I could live. Because I'd need to be in a good place one way or another. Rescuing someone who cannot be rescused without excellent professional help is a full-time job, and it's often used as an escape to avoid other problems one has in life. So I'd concentrate on working on me, regaining my self-respect. If 6 months or a year go by and he's shown true change, and he wants back in the marriage, then I'd think about it.

The truth is people with problems like these rarely recover. That's just the facts.


----------



## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

yea a bunch of promises and just when things start getting hard he kills transparency. How much you wanna bet he got a girls number whil he was out at the bar. i think he is calling your bluff. Seeing if he can get you to rugsweep again. This guy sounds like a master manipulator. Get a lawyer now and have him served. Tell him you want complete transparency or I will divorce you. Otherwise prep for another Dday.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Two weeks of transparency isn't good enough.


I agree - but what is? This is exactly what my wife did. It was about 10 months after the NC was implemented. She was sick of me keeping tabs on her, feeling like a child. She said that "I've kept my promise for a year now, and you need to trust me. What more can I do?" And she changed her passwords, etc. 

Even 10 months, I was really hating this move by her. I have since decoded some of the passwords, however.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

justonelife said:


> The important question is - What do YOU think of letting him go back home alone? If you think it will bother you, have you constantly wondering what he's up to, etc, then don't allow it to happen.
> 
> Right now, things are still very raw and fresh. You need time to see if this reconciliation is true or not. I wouldn't do anything to make yourself feel uneasy at all. He needs to be showing you that you can trust him. Actions speak louder than words. What are his actions telling you?



Well for the most part I really think he is trying. He stays completely away from his phone (whereas before he was constantly on it....I'd go to the bathroom, he'd be on it..we would be at the dinner table, he'd be on it) It was sick how much he used it, and to hell if I was going to see anything on his phone. So he has made some huge adjustments. 

One of the biggest things that's bugging me right now is that he doesn't seem to understand that I have come to a breaking point, and I'm not ready to just "let it go" and move on like I used to. I guess he's just used to the old me.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> I agree - but what is? This is exactly what my wife did. It was about 10 months after the NC was implemented. She was sick of me keeping tabs on her, feeling like a child. She said that "I've kept my promise for a year now, and you need to trust me. What more can I do?" And she changed her passwords, etc.
> 
> Even 10 months, I was really hating this move by her. I have since decoded some of the passwords, however.


I wouldn't tolerate this from my husband, but that's because we share transparency. My passwords have always been available. Always. My life was an open book. He doesn't have a leg to stand on in that regard, to imply that I wouldn't do exactly the same for him in terms of email / FB access. In fact email isn't passworded at all on our home computer, nor is my phone, and he knows the overall computer password.

Why does she need to keep any secrets from you?


----------



## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I agree - but what is? This is exactly what my wife did. It was about 10 months after the NC was implemented. She was sick of me keeping tabs on her, feeling like a child. She said that "I've kept my promise for a year now, and you need to trust me.  What more can I do?" And she changed her passwords, etc.
> 
> Even 10 months, I was really hating this move by her. I have since decoded some of the passwords, however.


I dunno. Mutual transparency for the rest of your relationship, probably.

To me, the idea of transparency isn't because you need to be checking every ten minutes, but because you're transparent, eventually, you'll no longer need it, if that makes sense.


----------



## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

REALLY!?

You already know this is BS. He has demonstrated his true colors. Time to lay divorce papers on him. This is not remorse. This is not transparency. He should be bending over backwards to make sure YOU are comfortable. 

Sorry you are here. You already know the actions you need to take.


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> I dunno. Mutual transparency for the rest of your relationship, probably.
> 
> To me, the idea of transparency isn't because you need to be checking every ten minutes, but because you're transparent, eventually, you'll no longer need it, if that makes sense.


I would agree with this. I can understand him not wanting you going through all of his messages every 10 minutes because it would be a constant reminder (to both of you) of his affairs. However, changing the password isn't going to help either. I would tell him that you must know ALL of his passwords and in exchange, you would try to back off a little on checking his phone all of the time. If he has nothing to hide, he shouldn't have a problem with that. And if his phone is open to you at all times, the need to check it will diminish over time.


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

somethingelse said:


> One of the biggest things that's bugging me right now is that he doesn't seem to understand that I have come to a breaking point, and I'm not ready to just "let it go" and move on like I used to. I guess he's just used to the old me.


What has really changed? He's back to his old habits and you are allowing it to happen. He's testing to see what he can get away with and so far, you are reverting back to your old habits of letting him walk all over you. 

I'd lay it out very plainly for him. Full transparency for as long as you deem necessary or divorce. And I'd have a plan in place to show him you are serious (a separate bank account already open, the name of the attorney you have hired, etc).


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Love that excuse for changing his password. He is full of sh*t.
> 
> He has to want to overcome it.
> 
> ...



I agree that he does need counselling and he's been like this for a long long time. I'm not sure how to tell him that he does need it without him just rejecting it right away. He doesn't like to face up that's for sure.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> I dunno. Mutual transparency for the rest of your relationship, probably.
> 
> To me, the idea of transparency isn't because you need to be checking every ten minutes, but because you're transparent, eventually, you'll no longer need it, if that makes sense.


Transparency is always needed to avoid EAs/PAs and for reconciliation after EA/PA.

No pass codes on phones, no deleting emails, texts, I really like saying if there is nothing to hide, there is nothing to find. Putting a pass code on the phone now to reduce stress etc etc sounds like a war strategy, fight back. Addictions have no play grounds, they should not be tolerated and not even tested after recovery.
Edit: If he can't help himself from not being unfaithful then more of a reason to leave his phone open as a deterrent and remain transparent!


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

badbane said:


> yea a bunch of promises and just when things start getting hard he kills transparency. How much you wanna bet he got a girls number whil he was out at the bar. i think he is calling your bluff. Seeing if he can get you to rugsweep again. This guy sounds like a master manipulator. Get a lawyer now and have him served. Tell him you want complete transparency or I will divorce you. Otherwise prep for another Dday.




Who knows anymore...he does play the game very well


----------



## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Okay I am sorry but if you are married then there should be inherent transparency. Except if you have a job where you have to keep everything confidential. My wife knows every email address i have, I know all her passwords, and check her phone every so often. I did that even before the EA. That how I discovered and ended the EA early enough that she wasn't entrenched about this guy.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> I agree - but what is? This is exactly what my wife did. It was about 10 months after the NC was implemented. She was sick of me keeping tabs on her, feeling like a child. She said that "I've kept my promise for a year now, and you need to trust me. What more can I do?" And she changed her passwords, etc.
> 
> Even 10 months, I was really hating this move by her. I have since decoded some of the passwords, however.




I just think if there's nothing to hide, then who cares if I look at your stuff. What's going to happen? I'm already PO so what's the big deal? Even if they aren't doing anything, just get over the control thing.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

somethingelse said:


> I agree that he does need counselling and he's been like this for a long long time. I'm not sure how to tell him that he does need it without him just rejecting it right away. He doesn't like to face up that's for sure.


And here is what you need to understand: avoiding counseling is often a SYMPTOM. The two most extreme examples that we see on this board are Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Look them up and see if one of them fits him.

Many cheaters are not this mentally ill. But serial cheaters often are. The cheating happens NOT because the marriage is so god-awful. It's because of what's going on inside the cheater, where you and I can't see. 

You are FAR better served working on you than a person with these types of serious issues. That's because these people hook up with vulnerable types that put up with this crap, often labelled co-dependents. Co-dependents have their own issues, or they would run far and fast from someone this broken. So at a bare minimum, get into therapy to understand why you're not just settling for second-best, but the very bottom of a scummy barrel.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

badbane said:


> Okay I am sorry but if you are married then there should be inherent transparency. Except if you have a job where you have to keep everything confidential. My wife knows every email address i have, I know all her passwords, and check her phone every so often. I did that even before the EA. That how I discovered and ended the EA early enough that she wasn't entrenched about this guy.


Me too! The irony is I always had his secret phone password. I just trusted him and never looked. I also had the ability to set up an online account for his phone. I just trusted him and never tried. Ah, well.

Seems OP is waaaaay beyond this stage, however.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> And here is what you need to understand: avoiding counseling is often a SYMPTOM. The two most extreme examples that we see on this board are Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Look them up and see if one of them fits him.
> 
> Many cheaters are not this mentally ill. But serial cheaters often are. The cheating happens NOT because the marriage is so god-awful. It's because of what's going on inside the cheater, where you and I can't see.
> 
> You are FAR better served working on you than a person with these types of serious issues. That's because these people hook up with vulnerable types that put up with this crap, often labelled co-dependents. Co-dependents have their own issues, or they would run far and fast from someone this broken. So at a bare minimum, get into therapy to understand why you're not just settling for second-best, but the very bottom of a scummy barrel.



I've looked up narcissistic personality disorder before. And he is 3/4 of the traits. He isn't one of those people that acts like a King or something weird like that, but he definitely is a master manipulator like badbane says. Completely. 

I'm not sure if I have my own issues. I've made mistakes too. He was the first man I ever loved for reasons other than his narcissistic traits. I am for the most part a very devoted person. I slipped up once after he had done this to me a few times. Which just pushed him further over the edge. And after that, I have not looked back and have regained myself and my strength again. 

Again, I'm not sure if I'm "the type" that your speaking of. I guess I am. It has taken a lot for me to see the type of man he is.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

badbane said:


> Okay I am sorry but if you are married then there should be inherent transparency. Except if you have a job where you have to keep everything confidential. My wife knows every email address i have, I know all her passwords, and check her phone every so often. I did that even before the EA. That how I discovered and ended the EA early enough that she wasn't entrenched about this guy.



He has been a sneaky person since I met him now that I look back (I have no clue the amounts of things he has done, and I can never know). He has a hard time with transparency. I myself have no concerns if he wants to see my stuff.


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

> He has been a sneaky person since I met him now that I look back (I have no clue the amounts of things he has done, and I can never know). He has a hard time with transparency.


Does he have a hard time being divorced? Because that should be his choice. Transparency or divorce.

Do you want to be married to a sneaky person?


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

somethingelse said:


> I just think if there's nothing to hide, then who cares if I look at your stuff. What's going to happen? I'm already PO so what's the big deal? Even if they aren't doing anything, just get over the control thing.


Some people can't let go of the control thing. Especially because me looking around in her email is how I caught her. When enough friends ask her "why was he rooting around in your email?" she starts to say, "yeah, WTF?"

She has huge emotional childhood issues besides, that I won't get into. Everyone's situation needs to be handled in the way they see fit. There's no cookbook.

Two weeks is ridiculous. I guess the point of my question was, is there a point where a WS should have some privacy again, or never? For example, there are times when my W needs to dump her issues on her girlfriend and vice versa. It's not always condusive to do this over the phone or in person, so they will exchange emails that aren't any of my business. My W doesn't want me to have access to those talks, etc.

It's an interesting discussion - most feel the WS should never have privacy again, but there has to be a gray area in there at some point. It's not always black and white.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

I agree that at some point you should not feel like you have to invade your S's emails/text or whatever. But because they have proven once to be a WS, I think it is only logical on their part to not complain when their S is curious here and there. and if they are truly remorseful, should never feel upset by having their messages looked at once in a while. That's why I'm so concerned over my own H right now.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> It's an interesting discussion - most feel the WS should never have privacy again, but there has to be a gray area in there at some point. It's not always black and white.


It's not an issue of the WS having privacy. It's the idea that NEITHER of you have privacy. What is privacy, exactly? If you have something to say, you can write in a diary, or you can go to therapy. 

Transparency is _not_ a control thing. It's something that's MUTUALLY SHARED.

What are you going to tell another human being, that your spouse shouldn't know about? To what purpose?

My husband doesn't read my emails, although he's always had access, because they're BORING. But once every 3 to 6 months, because I leave my email on and open 100% of the time, he will read something that pops up on top. And once or twice I had to explain myself, but not because I was doing anything wrong. And we talk about it. 

I don't have email and texting and FB conversations that I feel any need to hide from him. I'm actually puzzled by why someone feels this is a necessary element to their lives.

That is where I arrived, after his affair. We had to bare our souls to one another. Failing to do that is what creates enough space and room between you that it starts to create a rift. Pretty soon you have a gap you can fall right through. Bad news.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

iheart - I can't argue with that logic - makes sense.

When I was going through all of this with my friends, one I really respect said, "you know, every individual should have some privacy in their life. I'm not a big fan of husbands and wives having to be in each other's business all the time"

And I get that too. Aren't we all, by definition, being hypocritical when we secretly come on to TAM and air our thoughts and problems on this forum without our spouse's knowledge? This outlet gives me tons of privacy in my life - everyone needs some sort of outlet.

Anyway, not a complete threadjack, but I'll stop now, because it's getting there.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> And I get that too. Aren't we all, by definition, being hypocritical when we secretly come on to TAM and air our thoughts and problems on this forum without our spouse's knowledge? This outlet gives me tons of privacy in my life - everyone needs some sort of outlet.
> 
> Anyway, not a complete threadjack, but I'll stop now, because it's getting there.


fortunately somethingelse entered this side discussion a few posts ago so not a total TJ 

I'm with you on this post. 100%. 

A forum is a fine line. My H has always known about the forums I'm on. If he wanted to read my posts, I would let him, and I wouldn't delete anything first. He is my husband and I trust him that much. But a forum isn't your friends and relatives. Theoretically, anonymous strangers don't have an agenda (other than their own point of view). Part of the point of a forum is collective objectivity (if enough people post and the forum is good and the members well-intentioned). In a nutshell, free therapy, after you can't afford it any more.

I used a forum after a miscarriage, and I posted on it a bajillion times for about a year. No one got tired of hearing my story. Other women who had gone through the same thing could precisely relate. It was extremely cathartic. As a result I recommend Internet forums for just about anything traumatic, because it allows you to share your story. The more you share your story, the more you are able to process it, grieve, examine it from every side, and ultimately accept the basic fact that you were damaged but this doesn't mean you should give up on life or love.

There is also a fine line to THAT, as well, of course. Tony Robbins (who does make me roll my eyes) talks about people getting RID of their stories of victimhood. What he means is, if you've properly processed a trauma, you cross to the other side and you no longer let it define who you are. It's easy to see that many of us on here--myself included--haven't reached that stage.

But at some point a forum like this can start to take away from your marriage, _especially_ if you are not having these precise conversations with your spouse, and they don't know you're on here. If you feel you cannot have these conversations with your spouse, ....


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

I've been wondering the same thing. Is it wrong for me to be on here without my H knowing? I wouldn't care if he did come on here to read my posts...But at the same time I wouldn't be able to get certain advice (like the kind I asked for today). It would almost defeat the purpose.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

somethingelse said:


> I've been wondering the same thing. Is it wrong for me to be on here without my H knowing? I wouldn't care if he did come on here to read my posts...But at the same time I wouldn't be able to get certain advice (like the kind I asked for today). It would almost defeat the purpose.


Has he earned your trust?


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Has he earned your trust?


No he hasn't. Not yet. and not for a long time.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> This is why it is crucial that little children feel love. This is why. They don't just need to believe that they are loveable. It has to be part of their CORE BEING, who they were from BEFORE they have memories.


I don't know about that. I'm not saying you shouldn't love your kids. But I think self-esteem is probably inversely correlated with good behavior. Criminals have fantastic self-esteem. Narcissists have amazing self-esteem.

Sometimes people are just jerks.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I don't know about that. I'm not saying you shouldn't love your kids. But I think self-esteem is probably inversely correlated with good behavior. Criminals have fantastic self-esteem. Narcissists have amazing self-esteem.
> 
> Sometimes people are just jerks.


No, self-love, self-respect is not about high self-esteem. You are 100% right, narcissists have the highest self-esteem on the planet.

Some of the most fascinating reading is how narcissists are formed.

But loving your kids is not the same thing as telling them that they can do no wrong, never giving them proper discipline. One particularly dangerous tactic that is quite common now is smoothing out the bumps in the road for kids so they never experience disappointment. The saddest part is that most of the disappointments in childhood pale in comparison to what adults have to withstand. If your kids can't handle those, they are in for a world of hurt one day.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> No, self-love, self-respect is not about high self-esteem. You are 100% right, narcissists have the highest self-esteem on the planet.
> 
> Some of the most fascinating reading is how narcissists are formed.
> 
> But loving your kids is not the same thing as telling them that they can do no wrong, never giving them proper discipline. One particularly dangerous tactic that is quite common now is smoothing out the bumps in the road for kids so they never experience disappointment. The saddest part is that most of the disappointments in childhood pale in comparison to what adults have to withstand. If your kids can't handle those, they are in for a world of hurt one day.



I feel like that's how my husband was raised. He never knew he ever did wrong, no one really ever told him by the stories he tells me. His dad rarely ever comes too much against my H, and allows him to dominate the conversation most of the time, especially if my H has "opinions" about something. Don't get me started on his grandmother. My H could do no wrong with her. I love my H and his family, but I can't hate sometimes how they give him so much "entitlement". That's why I think he feels he can just play around so much and feels I should be there with no complaints.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> And I get that too. Aren't we all, by definition, being hypocritical when we secretly come on to TAM and air our thoughts and problems on this forum without our spouse's knowledge? This outlet gives me tons of privacy in my life - everyone needs some sort of outlet.
> 
> Anyway, not a complete threadjack, but I'll stop now, because it's getting there.


Not at all. While the WS is still in the affair, this should be a safe place to vent, and giving the WS access to this forum during that period, can enable a WS to take their affair further underground and evade detection. Methods to detect an affair (e.g. keyloggers, VARs, PIs, GPS devices), and strategies for combating the cheater script are all discussed here. It would be like allowing the opposing team access to the playbook and would help enable the affair.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

somethingelse said:


> Then two nights ago, he told me he was going to change his passcode because he does not want me to be stressing us both out, and that I just have to trust him. Also that if one of the many women he was contacting texts or calls, he doesn't want me to be angry and start a fight. So, changed his passcode he did.


This has False R written all over it. He's rugsweeping. This is why so many Rs fail, the WS cannot sustain the effort to heal the marriage and help the BS feel safe, heal, and regain trust. 

This is my opinion: The WS should NEVER, EVER complain about being transparent, EVER. One year, two years, 3 years, whatever, if they feel that they need to have secrecy, then they don't need to be married. I'm two years out, and I can pick up my fWWs any time I want to and check and she doesn't care. By the same token, she can check my phone and accounts....because I have nothing to hide and never have. 

To me, if a WS or even fWS complains about being checked on, then they just want to rug sweep, pure and simple. I don't care if the affair happened 1 year, 2 years, or 20 years ago, it's still rug sweeping, and you're not in True R. 

This whole bit about wanting privacy is why they got into an affair in the first damn place.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> When I was going through all of this with my friends, one I really respect said, "you know, every individual should have some privacy in their life. I'm not a big fan of husbands and wives having to be in each other's business all the time"


Ah! I see where the confusion lies. There is "privacy" and there is "secrecy" and the two are not the same thing. 

*Privacy* is when you close the door when you're getting dressed or going to the bathroom. To go to the dictionary, it's the state of being free from public attention. But notice that it's not a matter of "being who you're not" or in any way lying or hiding things...it's just modesty. 

*Secrecy* is when you purposely cover, hide or keep something concealed in order to mislead. Again to go to the dictionary, it's something that is kept or meant to be kept unknown or unseen. So for secrecy you are decidiing ahead of time to keep something hidden and purposely cover the real truth. 

Every individual should indeed have some privacy in their life, meaning they have the ability to have their own space, dress without public attention and so on...because they are not hiding who they are or what they are doing or who they are doing it with. But in a marriage, there is NO ROOM for secrecy. NONE. Your spouse is the one person in the world who should know you intimately and with whom you would open up and reveal the little things! 



> And I get that too. Aren't we all, by definition, being hypocritical when we secretly come on to TAM and air our thoughts and problems on this forum without our spouse's knowledge? This outlet gives me tons of privacy in my life - everyone needs some sort of outlet.


Nope, and here's why. When we come here to TAM it's not with the purposeful intent to hide or conceal what we are or what we truly think or feel. Mostly it's a place to vent and figure out what in the world we DO think or feel! It's a place to get some viewpoints from others, think about what they said, and then decide for ourselves what we are going to do. But the essence of "who we are" or "what we are doing" is not hidden from our spouse. 

Furthermore, my Dear Hubby knows I'm here and knows what I write. For those who's spouses do not know, what is written here is not "a lie" but more like a raw, uncut movie. When people's spouse don't read here, we just let it all out and don't edit ourselves (no need)...we pick whatever verbiage pops into our head and it's not always the exact right word...and we say things a little rough and tumble. It's RAW and UNCUT. If we knew our spouses would be reading here we might edit ourselves a bit...pick more precise words...be a little more gentle in our phrases. But the ROOT of what we say would be the same and would not be a secret. 

In conclusion, speaking as a former-Disloyal Spouse, it is years past our D-Day and to this day my Dear Hubby is completely free to check anything of mine that I use or own. He has all the passwords to my emails, Facebook, Twitter, everything. He is free to look at the cellphone any day any time. He can go in my purse and nose around. He can look on my PC and check my history. I leave it ALL open and honestly I do not even know if he does look or not...but I don't care if he did. If I walked in on him "checking up" on me, I would giggle and ask him if he found anything!  Know why? Because he WON'T find anything! He is included in everything I do now and if it's mine, it's his. 

If that is not the way your Disloyal Spouse is treating you...then they have not earned the "former" yet and are probably hiding something. I wouldn't tolerate it for a minute!


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> This has False R written all over it. He's rugsweeping. This is why so many Rs fail, the WS cannot sustain the effort to heal the marriage and help the BS feel safe, heal, and regain trust.
> 
> This is my opinion: The WS should NEVER, EVER complain about being transparent, EVER. One year, two years, 3 years, whatever, if they feel that they need to have secrecy, then they don't need to be married. I'm two years out, and I can pick up my fWWs any time I want to and check and she doesn't care. By the same token, she can check my phone and accounts....because I have nothing to hide and never have.
> 
> ...



I sure's the heck hope he isn't rug sweeping....it will be the end of us I do find out he's still lying to me. and I will find out. I'm used to D-Days. So I'm not afraid of them anymore. The next D-Day (if there ever is one) would put his head in a spin.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Thought I would update...

So far so good I think. 

I did ask my H to tell me his passcode. He did fight me a little and kept saying that he doesn't want me to get angry if a girl texts him. He doesn't want to fight. I said too bad and that if he wasn't willing to be open and honest, then he wasn't willing to work on the M.. and I would be sticking to my guns on leaving. So he gave me his passcode and has allowed me to look at it whenever I please. 

However I'm not too happy with the texts he's been getting this past week. One girl texted asking if she left her phone in our SUV. I asked if he had slept with this girl. He said no. Then another girl texted him asking if everything was ok...she said because he hasn't talked to her in a while. I asked if he slept with that girl, he was more hesitant in answering, but then later said no. 

It seems like everyday he gets a text from a new girl. I'm starting to get very sick about this. I don't like to see it, but I also want to know the truth about what he's been up to. I just don't understand how these girls can just creep around with my H and feel ok about doing it.


----------



## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

Sounds like a serial cheater. I would assume he has slept with them all. You need to put a VAR in his car now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

It's good that you are checking up on him but the question is whether or not you can live with the reality of how many women he was involved with.

Also, are you sure he hasn't just gotten another phone to keep going with his affairs? A VAR would be a good idea, especially since you basically have confirmation from one girl that she was in his car.

And you said the ultimatum was 3 weeks ago but he is just now getting a text about someone leaving her phone in his car? It seems to me that would be something you would text about within a day or two of losing your phone. Why is she just texting now? When was the last time he saw her?


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm really hesitant to get a VAR. 
He swears up and down now that nothing will ever happen on his end again. Which he has never done before. and he is allowing me into his phone whenever I want now...

I don't know what went on with these girls...he won't tell me that part. I ask, he blocks. Which is very frustrating. He does tell me though that he has not slept with anyone since last year. and that he has not had a physical A with anyone since. (who knows if that's BS or not)

The ultimatum was a month ago, and these girls are still texting. I asked him why these girls are still texting him like this, being that I gave him the option a month ago to stop. He swears up and down that he hasn't spoken to these girls. He says that the one girl was just trying to get him to talk to her, so she asked about her phone as a way for him to answer her. But what about the other one? 

I don't believe him. But I can only take him at his word now.
I really don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth as far as him telling me about his EA's. I can't help but think that something happened inside our SUV though since that text.

Since this started he has been blocking these numbers so they cannot contact him. But I'm still not ok with it, because he can control when he blocks these numbers and when he unblocks them.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Why are you hesitant to get a VAR? It's one of the least expensive, most effective ways of getting evidence of whatever is going down. If I were in your shoes, with my husband getting contacted by multiple women constantly, I'd be taping them to every seat in the car and house. You're not on a fishing expedition. He's in contact with multiple women. THAT is the smoking gun. 

The fact that supposedly he's stopped answering--that's not particularly compelling. First off, he's probably found a work-around via a prepaid phone or the computer or the Internet, so that it doesn't show up as a text on his phone that you're looking at. Second, if he is not contacting them, it's temporary. NO ONE goes cold turkey on a habit like this one. NO ONE. It's way, way, way too much fun.

Have you ever taken a look at a list of signs for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)? Does he fit them?


----------



## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

se- I know this hurts. It is hard to come to the realization that the person who you love can really be this person. Believe me- for 2 years I convinced myself no way could my wife (the sunday school teacher) be cheating on me. I can't tell you how many nights I think about how much better everything would be if I had put a VAR in her car 2 years ago. I finally did in January. It took one day for me to get the truth. We are trying to R, only because the truth is out there. Your instincts are dead wrong here. Only when the truth is known can you and he move forward. And he will NEVER volunteer the truth. It is up to you to end the cycle. Then you have options. 

You do not have to take his word. For $30 you can get a sony VAR at best buy and for $2 get sticky back velcro at lowes. Do it tomorrow.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I can't agree with Slater enough!!!!!

I was in the same boat. I never used a VAR (didn't know anything about infidelity, didn't know VARs existed / how to use one this way).

One day of a VAR would have spared me THREE years.

We are just trying to show you how to avoid our mistakes. We don't want our painful errors to all be in vain, although frequently that seems to be our lot in life...


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

You say that you can't trust anything he says, you doubt that nothing has happened and you question why he is still getting texts a month later. If all of that is true, why are you hesitant to follow up with a VAR? He has already proven that his word doesn't count for anything so why not verify his actions? I don't understand why you don't want to make sure except that you are afraid of finding out the truth and being forced to follow through with your promise to divorce. It's hard, I know, but isn't that better than continuing to live a lie?


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Why are you hesitant to get a VAR? It's one of the least expensive, most effective ways of getting evidence of whatever is going down. If I were in your shoes, with my husband getting contacted by multiple women constantly, I'd be taping them to every seat in the car and house. You're not on a fishing expedition. He's in contact with multiple women. THAT is the smoking gun.
> 
> The fact that supposedly he's stopped answering--that's not particularly compelling. First off, he's probably found a work-around via a prepaid phone or the computer or the Internet, so that it doesn't show up as a text on his phone that you're looking at. Second, if he is not contacting them, it's temporary. NO ONE goes cold turkey on a habit like this one. NO ONE. It's way, way, way too much fun.
> 
> Have you ever taken a look at a list of signs for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)? Does he fit them?



That's why I'm very skeptical at this point. He has done this for so long, that I cannot believe a word that comes out of his mouth. I will think about getting a VAR.....how much are they usually? 

He has a lot of signs of NPD. I've looked it up a lot of times, because he's put me through a lot of stuff since we've met. He fits about 3/4 of the signs.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

VAR's cost anywhere from $30-$200

you can get a decent one at best buy or staples or walmart for $60


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

slater said:


> se- I know this hurts. It is hard to come to the realization that the person who you love can really be this person. Believe me- for 2 years I convinced myself no way could my wife (the sunday school teacher) be cheating on me. I can't tell you how many nights I think about how much better everything would be if I had put a VAR in her car 2 years ago. I finally did in January. It took one day for me to get the truth. We are trying to R, only because the truth is out there. Your instincts are dead wrong here. Only when the truth is known can you and he move forward. And he will NEVER volunteer the truth. It is up to you to end the cycle. Then you have options.
> 
> You do not have to take his word. For $30 you can get a sony VAR at best buy and for $2 get sticky back velcro at lowes. Do it tomorrow.



At this point, it's very easy for me to believe that he is this way. However, I never knew until about three years into the relationship how real it is. I could see he had some self-esteem issues and control issues, but because I had never met someone like him, I didn't see how bad it could be.

Knowing how he was raised, how since he was 12 women have been chasing him around....his ex-girlfriend had his baby at age 15. He has never been without a woman, and is always looking for self gratification. 

When I was young and hopeful (three years into our relationship) I was very trusting, and thought that he would see what he had, and learn from his mistakes on his own. But it has come to the point now that he has to quite cold turkey no matter what, or he will lose me and our children.

I wasn't going to get a VAR (what does var stand for? I just know generally what it is), just because I wanted to give him one "last chance" to show me if he can truly be what he has promised now, because he has never ever promised me that he will be a good man (he used to say he would be good, but could never promise me up until now). He knows I will leave if he does anything like that again.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

justonelife said:


> You say that you can't trust anything he says, you doubt that nothing has happened and you question why he is still getting texts a month later. If all of that is true, why are you hesitant to follow up with a VAR? He has already proven that his word doesn't count for anything so why not verify his actions? I don't understand why you don't want to make sure except that you are afraid of finding out the truth and being forced to follow through with your promise to divorce. It's hard, I know, but isn't that better than continuing to live a lie?


It is scary to think about divorce. I never thought I would even consider divorce (ever in my life). But he's pushed me to my limits. 
It's a miracle that I'm even at this place, where I feel like I can leave, and survive on my own. I have never felt this way before. 
I will probably go look at some VARs when I get the chance. 
He's working out of town right now though. So I won't be able to put it in his car until he gets back (which could be 10 days from now)


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> VAR's cost anywhere from $30-$200
> 
> you can get a decent one at best buy or staples or walmart for $60


How small are they? 

He is very observant...would he be able to see it?


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

somethingelse said:


> How small are they?
> 
> He is very observant...would he be able to see it?



you can fit one by using velcro to strap under the seat and he shouldn't detect it unless he is looking for it by shoving his head under the seat


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

somethingelse said:


> It is scary to think about divorce. I never thought I would even consider divorce (ever in my life). But he's pushed me to my limits.
> It's a miracle that I'm even at this place, where I feel like I can leave, and survive on my own. I have never felt this way before.


That is the point you have to reach; no fear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

> I wasn't going to get a VAR (what does var stand for? I just know generally what it is), just because I wanted to give him one "last chance" to show me if he can truly be what he has promised now,


You can still give him one last chance to show you but still follow up with a VAR to be sure you can believe his actions. This is how you know for sure that he is being the good man that he promises to be rather than have that nagging doubt in the back of your mind always.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If I was in this situation I would call the phone company and have his number changed. 

Oh, and women don't continue to text over and over for a month without getting texts back. Come on. You're a woman, you know this to be true. If you come on to a man and he ignores you do you keep calling?


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

justonelife said:


> You can still give him one last chance to show you but still follow up with a VAR to be sure you can believe his actions. This is how you know for sure that he is being the good man that he promises to be rather than have that nagging doubt in the back of your mind always.


Yeah, I agree.. 

I just want to see if (after promising this) he can live up to it. If not, then I have not a doubt in my mind that he will always be a cheater and I can move on


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> If I was in this situation I would call the phone company and have his number changed.
> 
> Oh, and women don't continue to text over and over for a month without getting texts back. Come on. You're a woman, you know this to be true. If you come on to a man and he ignores you do you keep calling?


I asked him to change his number so that he doesn't have to deal with my upset when I see these girls texting, and he said he doesn't want to because he has a lot of friends that know his number and job opportunities would be missed (work hookups). He also just changed it...

That's what I said to him (about the women texting like that)..
How desperate does one have to be to keep texting like that? I don't know..could it be possible that these girls waited 3 weeks, didn't hear from him, and then found an excuse to text him? He swears up and down side to side that he has not talked to these girls at all in a good month now. I guess my only option is to get a VAR


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Is the inconvenience of changing his phone number more important than saving his marriage? Divorce is pretty damn inconvenient too.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

justonelife said:


> Is the inconvenience of changing his phone number more important than saving his marriage? Divorce is pretty damn inconvenient too.


I suppose it is more inconvenient for him..

I almost feel it's good that he's kept his old number so far. I got to record a couple of numbers, you guys gave me the idea of a VAR...

Should I maybe be calling these girls to see if I can get some information? or does that sound too crazy? I just really want to know what's been going on, since I feel my H doesn't want to get into details.


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

What I would love to see is your H call them with you on speaker phone listening in. But that probably won't happen.

My guess is that if you call them and they refuse to talk to you, it's probably because they are still involved with your H. So from that perspective, it could be telling. If they are pissed about being dumped, you might get some information but you might not be able to trust it. Either way, I think their reaction would be interesting.


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Well I was seriously contemplating calling one of those girls today....still thinking I might. But instead, today I called my H, and got down to the bare bones again.

I told him I know he's lying about not talking to those girls after I had given him the ultimatum. and he eventually broke and told me that he did text two girls (out of ten) the day after, and told them that he "can't talk" is what he said to them. ?? as a way to get them to stop talking to him. Then he never spoke to them again..

Since then they did not try to contact him

And he still swears that the two recent texts were just desperate tries to get him talking (from two other girls). He says they were trying to bait him.

I asked him why he said to them "can't talk"? That just sounds like he was saying "sorry, can't talk for now, my W has ruined it" He said he really was just trying to get them to stop texting, and he said they haven't texted since, so it worked..

I don't know what the heck to believe anymore. Or what I should be thinking about this. Too much has gone on in our M. I'm really rooting for him to be this "changed man"...am I just beating a dead horse?


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

sorry if this has been asked already--just how many of these 'girls' (i.e. grown women, right???) are there?


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> sorry if this has been asked already--just how many of these 'girls' (i.e. grown women, right???) are there?


I call them girls, because I consider a woman to be someone with substance and some dignity. 

Since January, there has been lots he has talked to on dating sites..but from what I've been told, there has been 10 main ones that got my H's number, he's met with, etc. He has sworn his face off that he has not slept with any of them though. They all know he's married too.


----------



## surfryhder (Aug 13, 2012)

Let me give you my perspective. When I was younger age 21 I had a serious relationship in which we moved in together. I had female friends but some of them turned into affairs. When I got caught I pleaded for trust and became transparent, but old habits are hard to break and when I would start another affair or was thinking of it, I demanded privacy and used trust as my battle cry. I was very immature and stupid. I say this to you that he is not willing to stop. And probably not going t change anytime soon...


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

surfryhder said:


> Let me give you my perspective. When I was younger age 21 I had a serious relationship in which we moved in together. I had female friends but some of them turned into affairs. When I got caught I pleaded for trust and became transparent, but old habits are hard to break and when I would start another affair or was thinking of it, I demanded privacy and used trust as my battle cry. I was very immature and stupid. I say this to you that he is not willing to stop. And probably not going t change anytime soon...


I have a strong feeling he will never be able to change. That's why I am so skeptical and untrusting to the point of considering D.

May I ask how old you are now? Are you still the same person you were when you were 21?


----------



## surfryhder (Aug 13, 2012)

somethingelse said:


> I have a strong feeling he will never be able to change. That's why I am so skeptical and untrusting to the point of considering D.
> 
> May I ask how old you are now? Are you still the same person you were when you were 21?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## surfryhder (Aug 13, 2012)

surfryhder said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Non I do not mind. I am now 33. Let me caveat and what I said earlier he may not change in this relationship. If he is demanding privacy then it sounds like what I did when I was much younger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

surfryhder said:


> Non I do not mind. I am now 33. Let me caveat and what I said earlier he may not change in this relationship. If he is demanding privacy then it sounds like what I did when I was much younger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He has been very secretive since I met him. Has done this to many other women before I met him too. 

I think I wrote in your thread that the man your W is emailing sounds like my H. I have found emails from him to other women saying those exact types of things. It is very much a habit for him to be doing this. But like I've said many times before on here, I'm fed up with it now. I just want a life where I am not constantly caring about what he is up to behind my back. 

I have been all too patient and trusting up until now. I have tried to give him space for 7 years. He never seems to fully get it. I hope you are wrong about him not being able to break the habit just yet. Because I am hanging by a string right now. and once he cuts it, I'll be gone


----------



## surfryhder (Aug 13, 2012)

somethingelse said:


> He has been very secretive since I met him. Has done this to many other women before I met him too.
> 
> I think I wrote in your thread that the man your W is emailing sounds like my H. I have found emails from him to other women saying those exact types of things. It is very much a habit for him to be doing this. But like I've said many times before on here, I'm fed up with it now. I just want a life where I am not constantly caring about what he is up to behind my back.
> 
> I have been all too patient and trusting up until now. I have tried to give him space for 7 years. He never seems to fully get it. I hope you are wrong about him not being able to break the habit just yet. Because I am hanging by a string right now. and once he cuts it, I'll be gone


If it is in fact what you want I hope it works out for you. I ended my relationship with my immature behavior and both of us are much better off now.


----------



## nec (Apr 15, 2013)

i know its a old post i just read it WOW!!! story sounds familuar


----------



## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Yeah...and turns out that gut feeling I had turned out to be right. Read my thread called Rude awakening today. This is what happened later that month. Always trust your gut.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/54179-rude-awakening-today.html


----------

