# Done is done



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I am so sorry wnycontractor. It does seems like she is done emotionally, and whatever changes you'll introduce now, won't matter to this relationship anymore. Too late. This is from woman who is more or less in your wife's shoes.
> 
> BUT- it will matter to your future relationships, and even more, to your relationship with your daughter, which is for life. continue working on yourself.


Wanda, I saw this post in another thread. I've seen quite a few of your posts recently and you seem to be very insightful. I'm curious. Why does it seem that women, once they reach a certain point, aren't able to rekindle their feelings for their partner? Or maybe don't even want to try? I've worked with men in a group counseling setting that I thought were too far gone but somehow they fall in love with their spouses again. But it seems once a woman is done, she is done. I'm just wondering.

And of course anyone is free to respond. The more the merrier so to speak.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I am almost at that done point.

I have tried for 4 years to "try" at this marriage while he just pooped all over me and was selfish and blah blah. Now that he's ready to "try", I'm kinda over it.

Maybe men should not take so much crap. It's hard to fall back in love with someone who treats you like garbage.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

human nature is pretty basic. Say you love a spouse. you try to have sex. Partner treats you like you have festering ebola. in your mind you say to yourself "its ok, i don't really love her that much anyway. Oh well. Guess i will work on my ship in the bottle project again"

after hundreds of these rejections, you start to believe your justification to yourself. Then one day the spouse tries to be nice to you, but you have convinced yourself she is the devil incarnate--never to be trusted with your heart again. So, it is over. Your heart for this partner is buried 10 feet under, and its not getting dug up, no matter what. Even if you DID dig it up, it would smell funny and have green snot dripping off of it. best to leave it buried at that point.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think it's a trust issue. At a certain point you simply don't trust someone not to repeat behaviors, as past is the best predictor of future. Especially when a spouse is not interested in addressing anything until they're going to be divorced; in that case you have to question the motivation, which just reeks of selfishness. So it wasn't important while your spouse was unhappy but still there, it didn't become important until you stood to lose. That suggests a person that will go right back to crappy behavior once they think a spouse is settled, because they've already shown they're not that interested in whether their spouse is happy, only that they don't leave. It wouldn't take my hb threatening to leave for me to address things that bother him, I do that because to some extent his happiness is partly on me.

A way to flip genders here is this: wife won't have sex often. Hubby says he's leaving, so she starts putting out; do you really trust that it's not duty sex she'll stop once you're settled? She's already shown the health of the marriage isn't important, only that their is a marriage, so you can't ever really trust her. 

Now let's say you spend years trying to address your rejection, and 20 years in decide you just can't do it. All of a sudden she's interested in better sex, but you just don't care anymore. Nobody questions a guy in such a situation. It's the same thing. Often these women have spent years trying to talk to their husbands, only to be blown off and labeled nags. Then when they leave hubby is blindsided, she's labeled a waw, and if he comes to TAM he'll be told she's probably cheating because that's the only way women leave marriages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think it's an issue of a man will generally not like to be told what to do. He will wait until he feels the wife is not pressuring him to do it her way. I think a husband does not want to look weak to his wife. I think he believes he will lose her respect. It's just the way in which men and women are different. By the time he notices her letting him do it and not bugging him to do it, it's too late. She has done the work and is not longer interested in his efforts or the outcome. Yes, I think it's crappy. I guess it's sexist or some other nasty thing. I'm not sure. I just think it's the way it is, until someone gets help to understand from someone outside of the marriage, that the husband trusts and respects. Preferably, someone who will help more than hurt. Too simple? Too something, I'm sure. I just don't know what.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I have experienced being done like that and while I can tell you what happened I can't tell you why women are more likely to experience it than men.

A thought about partnership comes to mind. Women don't expect to carry all the weight when they get married. Emotional, economic, raising the children, house keeping, the yard, planning events, etc. So somewhere in there the man drops some of those balls and she tries to get him to step up but he doesn't. He didn't seem to care or get it or think it is important or who knows why. It becomes a point of contention that never disappears. So she does what needs to be done and after a while feels that she is happier not fighting about this stuff and of she is on her own doing these things anyway then why bother caring about someone who doesn't value her or many of the things that she values? If the guy is simply absent in areas that are important to her then what purpose does he serve? 

All the fighting and such made it no fun to be around one another. So the things you shared dwindle and die. If you find him attractive still it probably keeps you hanging on a bit longer but it isn't enough.

Some event occurs and bam! That's it. The decision is made. No turning back.

When a woman gets the energy to pull the trigger it took so much to get her there that last minute overtures by someone with a lousy track record for whatever it is she didn't get all those years just isn't gonna sway her.

The best thing a guy could do in that case is the 180 for himself and figure out why he was such a dink and fix it. Become a good man because it is the right thing to do. Be a great father. Take on healthy hobbies and friends. Maybe she will believe it then when you do it with no hope of winning her back. When you do right because it is right.

She may just get upset that you didn't do it when you had the chance to save the marriage. That's understandable. And I think she is entitled. Even more so if you give this new, better man to another woman. Why didn't she rate that man? Why does another woman get the man she essentially built through her willingness to finally leave? 

Men sometimes grow up too late. And you can't win when you become everything she would have loved too late to save the marriage. You might get credit from her but it will be bitter sweet. 

I think this is a lesson in teaching people how to treat you. When you finally decide you aren't going to take it any more after having done so for so long you screw it up for yourself and the other person. You don't get what you want and the other person is denied a life lesson that they desperately need.

How's that for a ramble?!


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

I think after you try and try and you keep getting your needs ignored, they keep doing the things that upset you, don't seem to care what you want, you finally hit that point you are done.

Its true when a lot of women hit that point there is no going back. That is why if she is trying to tell you she needs more or you need to change you had better listen then not later. Later might be too late.

Women can be patient, loving and nurturing but when they have had their fill they have had their fill.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

This was true for me - once I was done, I was DONE. I had seen him say he was going to change, do it for a little while, and then revert back to the old him one time too many. I was no longer willing to take the chance that THIS time would be when he would finally change permanently.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Just wondering why she didn't know that he was not like that after almost three years? Or, did he suddenly and inexplicably change?


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

clipclop2 said:


> I have experienced being done like that and while I can tell you what happened I can't tell you why women are more likely to expressive it than men.
> 
> A thought about partnership comes to mind. Women don't expect to carry all the weight when they get married. Emotional, economic, raising the children, house keeping, the yard, planning events, etc. So somewhere in there the man drops some of those balls and she tries to get him to step up but he doesn't. He didn't seem to care or get it or think it is important or who knows why. It becomes a point of contention that never disappears. So she does what needs to be done and after a while feels that she is happier not fighting about this stuff and of she is on her own doing these things anyway then why bother caring about someone who doesn't value her or many of the things that she values? If the guy is simply absent in areas that are important to her then what purpose does he serve?
> 
> ...


Intresting...I have a girlfriend who is pretty close to being done with her 28 yr marriage. I'm gonna have to run this by her... 

~sammy


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I am almost at that done point.
> 
> I have tried for 4 years to "try" at this marriage while he just pooped all over me and was selfish and blah blah. Now that he's ready to "try", I'm kinda over it.
> 
> Maybe men should not take so much crap. It's hard to fall back in love with someone who treats you like garbage.


I wonder if it's because women are willing to take more without complaining or at least they seem to be willing to complain longer without reaching that end point. So when they finally reach that point they are well beyond the point of no return. Or maybe it has to do with the communication styles. My wife always tells me that women have to work up to being direct and by the time they get there they're already pissed off.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Good post. I always like to hear women on their perspective. I simply can't look at the world the same way and am always surprised, usually pleasantly, by a female point of view. 

Thanks ladies!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Thebes said:


> I think after you try and try and you keep getting your needs ignored, they keep doing the things that upset you, don't seem to care what you want, you finally hit that point you are done.
> 
> Its true when a lot of women hit that point there is no going back. That is why if she is trying to tell you she needs more or you need to change you had better listen then not later. Later might be too late.
> 
> Women can be patient, loving and nurturing but when they have had their fill they have had their fill.


I do think that many (most) men don't really listen when women talk. At least they don't listen in a way that allows them to hear what is truly being said. I know how my wife communicates. When I think there is something wrong and she says "I'm fine" I know she's not fine and push for more info. I know many men who would shrug their shoulders and say "she said she was fine."


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I have experienced being done like that and while I can tell you what happened I can't tell you why women are more likely to expressive it than men.
> 
> A thought about partnership comes to mind. Women don't expect to carry all the weight when they get married. Emotional, economic, raising the children, house keeping, the yard, planning events, etc. So somewhere in there the man drops some of those balls and she tries to get him to step up but he doesn't. He didn't seem to care or get it or think it is important or who knows why. It becomes a point of contention that never disappears. So she does what needs to be done and after a while feels that she is happier not fighting about this stuff and of she is on her own doing these things anyway then why bother caring about someone who doesn't value her or many of the things that she values? If the guy is simply absent in areas that are important to her then what purpose does he serve?
> 
> ...


I've heard this a lot! The trouble is that I also know some (most) women like that "boyish" quality that some men have. I think some (most) men mistake don't see that being a bit of a rogue and being completely immature do not go hand in hand.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think, for many women, we feel we try harder and longer than we should to make it work. If we have an ignoring spouse who only wakes up when it's too late, well, we very likely can't or won't go back at that point. We feel we've given it our best effort for years (or decades) and it didn't work so, yes, done is done.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I think, for many women, we feel we try harder and longer than we should to make it work. If we have an ignoring spouse who only wakes up when it's too late, well, we very likely can't or won't go back at that point. We feel we've given it our best effort for years (or decades) and it didn't work so, yes, done is done.


I've seen men come back from the edge but I've rarely seen women do the same. Someone once told me that women handle emotions better than men. She also said that men were emotionally bereft and stunted but we won't go there. lol

Is this emotional maturity a double edged sword in that once a woman has emotionally exhausted herself she has nothing else to give?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think plenty of men get to this point, too. I think in any relationship, one or both partners could *snap* out of love with you after too much of whatever behavior is killing the love. A bunch of slow withdrawals from the love bank and then *snap* you make the last withdrawal and now you are overdrawn. I don't think this is gender specific, it is just a result of how most romantic relationships work when things are going downhill.

Whoever gets to a zero balance first will *snap*. The rate of being able to come back from that snap isn't a gender thing either, I don't think. It depends on so many factors.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

bfree said:


> I've seen men come back from the edge but I've rarely seen women do the same. Someone once told me that women handle emotions better than men. She also said that men were emotionally bereft and stunted but we won't go there. lol
> 
> Is this emotional maturity a double edged sword in that once a woman has emotionally exhausted herself she has nothing else to give?


A good place to read about both men and women who have come back from out-of-love to in-love is Marriage Builders forums. They have a very specific formula, which whether it works or not, I don't know if it is that or just that these certain spouses really wanted to make it work...but there are plenty of examples of wives coming back from zero to love.

Lots of examples of women who don't, too.

And men who do and men who don't.

It appears to be a lot about timing to me. If the fell-out-of-love spouse is also in some kind of personal crisis, or an affair, or is not taking care of themselves, is depressed, etc...then they are less likely to fall back in love during the crisis. If the fell-out-of-love spouse is in a healthy place, they are more likely to be able to fall back in love.

This supposes though, that there is real love available to them to fall back into. That isn't always the case. Some fell-out-of-love spouses fell out of love for good reasons that simply can't be fixed. Sometimes it just "isn't there" between two people and never can be.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

bfree said:


> I've seen men come back from the edge but I've rarely seen women do the same. Someone once told me that women handle emotions better than men. She also said that men were emotionally bereft and stunted but we won't go there. lol
> 
> Is this emotional maturity a double edged sword in that once a woman has emotionally exhausted herself she has nothing else to give?


Good point. Yes, I believe that could be the case.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

bfree said:


> I've seen men come back from the edge but I've rarely seen women do the same. Someone once told me that women handle emotions better than men. She also said that men were emotionally bereft and stunted but we won't go there. lol
> 
> Is this emotional maturity a double edged sword in that once a woman has emotionally exhausted herself she has nothing else to give?


Women are raised to be compliant, to be the ones who give in. Don't make a fuss, don't nag. Think of the stereotypical nagging wife, it is a very unattractive picture. So, by the time a woman voices complaints it is very important to listen.

Men, often times, wait until the sex dries up before they notice anything is wrong...


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think plenty of men get to this point, too. I think in any relationship, one or both partners could *snap* out of love with you after too much of whatever behavior is killing the love. A bunch of slow withdrawals from the love bank and then *snap* you make the last withdrawal and now you are overdrawn. I don't think this is gender specific, it is just a result of how most romantic relationships work when things are going downhill.
> 
> Whoever gets to a zero balance first will *snap*. The rate of being able to come back from that snap isn't a gender thing either, I don't think. It depends on so many factors.


This. The love bank theory is very important.:iagree:


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

techmom said:


> Women are raised to be compliant, to be the ones who give in. Don't make a fuss, don't nag. Think of the stereotypical nagging wife, it is a very unattractive picture. So, by the time a woman voices complaints it is very important to listen.
> 
> Men, often times, wait until the sex dries up before they notice anything is wrong...


I'm soooo glad that my wife isn't compliant. She doesn't nag but we've learned to read each other so she doesn't have to. Many times I blame the communicator if the message isn't received correctly but the recipient has to be available and willing to listen as well and needs to make an effort to try to understand what is being said. It doesn't always work but often enough that we manage. If she always gave in I think I'd lose respect for her.


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## NewLife2017 (Aug 16, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> A thought about partnership comes to mind. Women don't expect to carry all the weight when they get married. Emotional, economic, raising the children, house keeping, the yard, planning events, etc. So somewhere in there the man drops some of those balls and she tries to get him to step up but he doesn't. He didn't seem to care or get it or think it is important or who knows why. It becomes a point of contention that never disappears. So she does what needs to be done and after a while feels that she is happier not fighting about this stuff and of she is on her own doing these things anyway then why bother caring about someone who doesn't value her or many of the things that she values? If the guy is simply absent in areas that are important to her then what purpose does he serve? !


:iagree:


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Unfortunately, I think I am at that point with my H. For about 4 years now, I have tried and tried. I have begged, pleaded, cried, screamed, yelled, and even threw things (not at him). 

At first, I would try to talk to him in a non-nagging way. He wouldn't budge and continued. 

I moved to writing letters. No go for him.

I moved to nagging. Definitely didn't work and I HATED nagging.

I moved on to screaming and yelling. He STILL didn't care.

I cried. He felt bad for half a second, but still continued his selfish behavior.

I threw things or slammed doors. That just made me look like a crazy person.

Now, I am silent. I don't say anything anymore. I am miserable every time I have to deal with it - but I don't say anything. What's the point? He doesn't care.

He said he is finally ready to change now. For 2 months he's been the ideal H. Everything that he was supposed to do as a H (stay faithful, not lie, etc) He is doing now. *To note, he has been faithful for about 2 years now. DD is coming up on Oct. 31. and he has been faithful since about Jan. 2012.* that I know of. Until 2 months ago, he was still lying about small crap that didn't matter. How do you build trust if you're lying about what you had for lunch?! 

But now, I am just p*ssed that he waited so long. I am too hurt and if I am honest, I don't believe this will be a long term thing for him. I think that as soon as he is comfortable or bored again...he is going to return to the same behavior. 

He swears up and down that he is serious this time. I am his world...blah blah blah blah. But I don't know if I can come back. 

We are staying married for now. He wanted more time...the irony of that. MORE TIME???? You've had 4 years!!!! ugh. We've been together for 6 years, but the second we got married 4 years ago - he changed and started acting like an @ss frat boy. Now, he wants more time. 

I can't get that time back that I wasted working on it. I was left alone to care for the children...I was put second, third, or 100th behind everything else he had going on (which at the time was absolutely nothing but his stupid playstation 3 or trying to get a piece from a waitress or co-worker). Now he wants....WANTS...more time. How does he get to get what he WANTS?! He's been getting what he wants without regard to anyone else.

uhhem....Sorry, I may be a little bitter. I am working on that haha.

So, there is just a point of no return because after you wake up - you realize that your life is passing you by. Literally. You're sitting around being miserable all of the time and you realize that you don't HAVE to be in that situation. So, you leave - either emotionally or emotionally AND physically. You escape out. You try to make yourself happy. After all, that's what your spouse has been doing. (well, in my case).


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

techmom said:


> Women are raised to be compliant, to be the ones who give in. Don't make a fuss, don't nag. Think of the stereotypical nagging wife, it is a very unattractive picture. So, by the time a woman voices complaints it is very important to listen.
> 
> Men, often times, wait until the sex dries up before they notice anything is wrong...


This is so perfect. I grew up with nagging mom. She always was on my dad. I didn't want to be like that and so became the complete opposite. I kept things inside, tried to shrug things off and resentment grew. We would probably be divorced if things hadn't changed.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You can't communicate a timeline to someone who takes a mile when you give them an inch. You can't trust them. You have to reserve the right to pull the trigger at any moment because you have decided that you wasted enough time. That's your right as a person.

It is understandable that you would feel there is no justice of he gets to have done all the bad stuff while you suffered and yet he gets to keep you because he is finally ready, if he really is finally ready, to grow up. You wear the scars that he put there yet he is rewarded with you.

Yeah, that's hard to swallow.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Done is done*



clipclop2 said:


> You can't communicate a timeline to someone who takes a mile when you give them an inch. You can't trust them. You have to reserve the right to pull the trigger at any moment because you have decided that you wasted enough time. That's your right as a person.
> 
> It is understandable that you would feel there is no justice of he gets to have done all the bad stuff while you suffered and yet he gets to keep you because he is finally ready, if he really is finally ready, to grow up. You wear the scars that he put there yet he is rewarded with you.
> 
> Yeah, that's hard to swallow.


You just hit on something that really resonated with me. I've not been a nice person in my past. My wife of course knows this as we are totally honest with each other. But because I am who I am she wouldn't hesitate to walk away from the marriage if I ever went there again. I would die for my wife. I'd step in front of a moving car or take a bullet for her with no hesitation. But I've struggled too long and worked too hard to rebuild myself to allow the one person I completely open up for to disrespect me or purposefully hurt me. I wouldn't think twice about walking away. To struggle so much and so long, to become so disheartened. I can see why and how someone would give up.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Small things add up over time. Some men and women think that their partners get unset over little things that are really no big deal. If this happens frequently enough, one or the other reaches a tipping point and gives up and checks out of the relationship. It may be years before the woman actually walks away

It's not that women make a sudden decision and don't back off. They let things go for a long time and then go along to get along for many years before they walk away. I don't think men go silent about their dissatisfaction and wait years to exit. When they go silent, an exit is seldom far off. It's probably easier to work out a recent decision. However, a plan that has been in the workings for years is difficult to change.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

What I have seen happen is that a woman will tell her husband what her needs are for years and he does not listen. Finally she tells him she is done. That is another need she is stating. When she tells him this and he responds by asking for (or demanding) another chance, it is just more of him not listening to her needs or caring about them. I think if men in that situation would apologize and tell their wives that they are sorry and will do anything they can to make the transition easier for their wives and follow through with it, it would turn the hearts of many wives back to their husbands who finally show they are willing to do whatever it takes, even to the point of not fighting divorce, to meet their wives needs, that they could turn things around.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

bfree said:


> I've seen men come back from the edge but I've rarely seen women do the same. Someone once told me that women handle emotions better than men. She also said that men were emotionally bereft and stunted but we won't go there. lol
> 
> Is this emotional maturity a double edged sword in that once a woman has emotionally exhausted herself she has nothing else to give?


I don't know that what women do is "emotional maturity." Because it isn't mature to silently swallow sh*t for years until you become so resentful that you can't stand it any more. Nor is it mature to hint at what you want instead of asking for it directly. Women may be better at reading other people's emotions and regulating their own, but they don't necessarily know how to express them in a mature way in the context of a relationship.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I tried lots of different methods of communication and there was always something wrong with them. My last shot wad my best. When it failed I knew it was over for me. I didn't take **** or silently stew. Ever. Read what Staarz wrote. Does that sound like she didn't try to get through to him?

How often in these situations does the man ever try to initiate a discussion about the problems in the marriage? Not very often. He takes silence as a sign that the 10 years of problems have suddenly and miraculously disappeared. That's delusional!

The silence at the end should strike terror. Instead they start smiling and thinking life is good at home. They just had to wait our the storm, do nothing different, and the crazy woman they married would just get over it.

In their dreams...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> I don't know that what women do is "emotional maturity." Because it isn't mature to silently swallow sh*t for years until you become so resentful that you can't stand it any more. Nor is it mature to hint at what you want instead of asking for it directly. Women may be better at reading other people's emotions and regulating their own, but they don't necessarily know how to express them in a mature way in the context of a relationship.


Nor is it mature for men to sit back and let things ride, thinking it will all blow over, like a storm. 

It just really shows a great inability to communicate. Seems this is the main issue in many marriages. Men don't know how to read a woman. Many seem to look at the angry outbursts and silence like it was a problem at work that we were just supposed to acknowledge. 

I think that's the issue for many men. They don't realize when it's something they want fixed. Most women say they don't want a fixer. They complain about work and just want their feelings acknowledged. 

Men will do the same at other times thinking they are doing what was needed. It's likely these men saw the same emotions and reactions when they heard the story about your work or some other thing which they weren't supposed to fix and had to guess about and just agree with you. 

When they do the same on other occasions, it looks like they don't care. The assumption is made that the man knows what you want, which isn't the same as what you normally want, but it's not understood, so he looks like a loser when he just doesn't understand what you need from him at that point in time. If there is not further discussion, and most women don't want to nag, he figures all you needed was to vent and have your feelings acknowledged.

I wish someone could explain to me how to know the difference without calling down a hail storm of fire and brimstone upon my head. I would have been more active and less talkative, in some cases, not all. No one gets everything they want. Not even the one with the kitty kat.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Most of the time women do clearly communicate, it is the man who decides whether or not what she is concerned about is worth it, or to belittle it and say that it is not important enough. Then they label you crazy or over emotional if you keep stating the same point. Like you are making mountains out of molehills.

Men need to listen when she is stating something that is bothering her within the home. We know that men are problem solvers, but it does no good when the same problem is still existing. Humans listen to what we want to listen to and filter out the rest, whatever is easy we tackle so we can seem like the hero. The more difficult stuff, especially if it points out unfavorable aspects of ourselves, we tend to put off. The more you kick that can down the road the more it snowballs.

Then when divorce is mentioned, or if their is a sexless marriage, the man is ready and willing to become the doormat. When all she wanted is to be listened to and her concerns addressed. But by this time the man forgot what the issue was and the woman is so frustrated with nagging and repeating herself that she just shuts down completely. 

Ilybnilwy does not always mean an affair. You can love someone but be so frustrated with them that you lose sexual attraction towards them. Worrying about someone else takes the blame and focus off of themselves.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Look at it this way. If I ask my husband for help or to do something for me several times and he never follows through what is the message? He doesn't want to do it. He reserves the right to be the man of the house without follow through.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm not saying women don't put a tremendous amount of emotional effort into their relationships. We do. I did in my now defunct marriage. I took the same approach as you clipclop - changing the way I communicate repeatedly hoping the next method will get through. But now I'm realizing that maybe the words coming out of my mouth and the way I deliver them are not as important or effective as having boundaries and providing consequences when someone violates them. Animals, including humans, respond to expectations and consequences, not hopes and words. 

And to your point 2 - the fact that you feel like you have to guess all the time is reflective of what I'm saying. We women need to be direct about what we want and don't want. We can't claim to be emotionally mature until we do. Clipclop - I don't doubt you were direct and clear about what you want. But what were the consequences for your husband if he didn't do what you asked? That's what I mean. I didn't provide any to mine and he kept on doing what he wanted to do.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The different techniques are not the message. I'm not talking of beating about the bush. I'm talking about delivery. I'm rarely indirect in terms of message. 

They respond to all delivery techniques the same way. And it is always your fault. Always! Only doing something different doesn't work, either. 

Not every situation,especially one involving the children, can have consequences that correct a man's behaviour. 

I think beta men and passive aggressive avoidant type of men are the ones that most likely find themselves in this situation.

alphas don't tend to stick their head in the sand.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

techmom said:


> Then when divorce is mentioned, or if their is a sexless marriage, the man is ready and willing to become the doormat. When all she wanted is to be listened to and her concerns addressed. But by this time the man forgot what the issue was and the woman is so frustrated with nagging and repeating herself that she just shuts down completely.
> 
> Ilybnilwy does not always mean an affair. You can love someone but be so frustrated with them that you lose sexual attraction towards them. Worrying about someone else takes the blame and focus off of themselves.


Or, after enduring a sexless marriage, the man takes a good look at his actions and those of his wife for the past X years and realizes that he made every effort but she was just unreasonable at every turn. 

The unpleasant fact is that some people are not the team players that they believe themselves to be. When compromise makes sense, some people become more demanding rather than less. 

Being a better communicator doesn't make a person 'right'. Reaching the ILYBINILWY stage first doesn't make a person 'right' either.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

I think the dynamics are pretty clear between the genders on this subject. At least they were in our case. We had drifted apart over the years. I minimized her in the relationship, didn't watch out for her emotional needs or happiness. She physically distanced herself from me and intimacy and sex fizzled and died. You could argue the chicken and egg theory all night and to this day, I don't really know how we let it happen or who drew first blood. 

By the time I realized the marriage had failed she had completely disconnected from me. She didn't hate me but she was indifferent. When I figured out she had another man in her life and I was going to lose her, I emotionally reconnected very quickly. But she was emotionally out the door, nothing I did for months seemed to have any impact on her. Even after the EA was dead and buried, things weren't improving. We lived in a one way emotional relationship that was completely sexless for two years. 

During that time we had a discussion on this exact subject. Her wording was "Amp. once I'm done with a relationship, I'm done. I wish it wasn't that way but it just is. I wish I had your confidence that this will work out, I just don't." Her voice was somber and had a sense of finality in it. She believed it, I didn't. The silver lining I took from that conversation was that she "wished" it wasn't so. With that I had something to build on and continued to show my confidence that we would be OK. With a little more time she latched on to that confidence and we began to improve. We restarted the sex life and things began to emotionally move quickly. On Christmas Eve, 2009 the words finally came for her. "I love you!"

I made all the typical mistakes during our reconciliation but managed to do enough things right to help her find her way back. Obviously to my wife's credit, she was willing to give things plenty of time and to work it out. So if we are typical for our gender, men tend to emotionally jump back into a relationship after it has already entered crisis mode but once a woman has ended her emotional ties, it is very difficult for her to recommit. In our case, it was three and a half years before she was back "in love" with me.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

bfree said:


> I do think that many (most) men don't really listen when women talk. At least they don't listen in a way that allows them to hear what is truly being said. I know how my wife communicates. When I think there is something wrong and she says "I'm fine" I know she's not fine and push for more info. I know many men who would shrug their shoulders and say "she said she was fine."


Hahaha, I have a friend that calls " I'm fine", "Women-talk." He says he's learned by now, that means, "Nothing is fine"...lol

~sammy


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

See Amp that's what I mean. I do believe that women give more emotionally to a relationship than men. That's not to say that men don't emotionally invest, just that we're not equipped as well. When problems occur as they are wont to do, men look at them as a problem to solve. But that doesn't evoke any emotions in us. But women see problems and they are already emotionally invested to the point that it provokes an emotional response in them. If enough problems manifest and especially if they aren't dealt with I think women become exhausted and their emotional well runs dry. Does that make any sense?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

bfree said:


> See Amp that's what I mean. I do believe that women give more emotionally to a relationship than men. That's not to say that men don't emotionally invest, just that we're not equipped as well. When problems occur as they are wont to do, men look at them as a problem to solve. But that doesn't evoke any emotions in us. But women see problems and they are already emotionally invested to the point that it provokes an emotional response in them. If enough problems manifest and especially if they aren't dealt with I think women become exhausted and their emotional well runs dry. Does that make any sense?


Perfect sense. She had said she had been trying to get me to realize that all wasn't well for years. In my typical knuckle dragging mode I interpreted it as things weren't great but we were OK. The thing I missed, as I think most men do, is that the arguing and fighting hadn't eased off because things were better. They'd dropped off because she quit giving a ****!


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

This issue has always made curious about men's thinking. I could understand if a wife is a nag, then her talking just becomes white noise because, "Oh, the old lady is just nagging me again" but if she doesn't nag and brings up a serious issue in the relationship, (reasonable request and tone), it's not taken seriously either. He might try for a while but then it stops. I don't understand. Is it a maturity thing?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I think guys buy into stereotypes about women and use them to provide blanket dismissal of an issue she finds important. We are irrational. If we are upset and they are not, we are crazy. Emotional. Hormonal.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> This issue has always made curious about men's thinking. I could understand if a wife is a nag, then her talking just becomes white noise because, "Oh, the old lady is just nagging me again" but if she doesn't nag and brings up a serious issue in the relationship, (reasonable request and tone), it's not taken seriously either. He might try for a while but then it stops. I don't understand. Is it a maturity thing?


Maturity? Could be. It really depends on the situation. My wife thinks that everyone should be more kind to her. She doesn't understand that her habit of complaining and trying to control everyone has an effect on the kindness she receives. 

So she has a valid complaint about not receiving enough kindness, but she thinks that her perfectionism when directed at others should be received like kindness because she is 'helping' them. 

It hasn't occurred to her that it is unwelcome, despite the fact that she is intelligent and articulate. She doesn't think that other people's resentment towards her has any basis in reality.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I think "Done is Done" is well-explained by Willard Harley's Giver and Taker dynamic.

Basically the theory is that everyone has a Giver and Taker inside, but most of us are more one than the other. Hence in many relationships, it is easy to see which one is the Giver and which one is the Taker. 

What can happen for Givers is that they will give, and give, and give until one day, they just explode and their Taker becomes in control. At this point, they are not willing to give any more and relationships die.

Harley is of course much elegant and nuanced than my poor description. I can say though that reading his description of the Giver and Taker is what sold me on the MB way of thinking. I saw my part in the destruction of several dating relationships- some serious, some not- when I read about the Giver.

I am a Giver. I would give, and if I was unhappy I would make mention of it, but being a giver I would continue to Give. I would not enforce any consequences or boundaries, I would just continue to do my best to be a kick-ass Girlfriend. I could never stay angry. I loved to give and so kept right on doing it.

Then, one day, it would just change. Something minor would happen and everything in my heart would change. I was DONE. 

I'd think: I just gave you [however long the relationship was] and I did everything I could to make it a great experience for you; and you just aren't doing it for me. I'm done. Next.

And it's crazy, because I know that in some cases I felt some love maybe a day or two before it was over. But then it was just gone. The guy would do something, and except in one case it was always something small, I can't even remember what happened- I didn't really understand it; I just knew it was time to move on.

As such, several guys were totally blindsided by the break-up. It was very easy, and truthful, for me to tell them, "You know, I TOLD you I was not happy!" but in reality, I didn't even realize that I was about done until it was too late. I knew I didn't like something but didn't understand that it was big; I certainly did not tell them clearly that me being unhappy was putting our relationship in danger.

It's just one day that line was crossed. Over and out. 

In some cases, I may have had my eye on another guy, but in no cases had I started up a relationship before ending the old one. I just knew that I didn't want anymore to do with the guy and was moving on.

Now, I see that the Taker had just...taken over. Being aware of the Giver and Taker has changed my way of doing relationships. 

For me, it means realizing that it is very, very important to communicate when something makes me unhappy. I have to get it across to my husband, via words and when needed, actions. (The same for my husband as well, although I can't control what he does. I can only hope that he is being open and honest when he is and not happy with something.) It is critical to get to Win-Win. 

I read so many threads by guys where their wives were telling them loved them last week, and are leaving this week. Of course the first thought is, "Is there someone else?" But when there isn't, I think that the wife is done Giving.

I agree with Faithful Wife that men and women can be brought back into the relationship and made happy and whole, under some circumstances. Both have to be willing to try, and there can't be anyone else on the scene. And the woo-ing spouse really has to have their A game on at all times, for a period of time, sometimes a LONG period of time. 

IME most women who are walking are just no longer willing to try.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

When women are givers (and not all are) we give and give and give to the point of emotional exhaustion -- then one day a switch is thrown (it's that sudden) and we are done. And we won't consider rethinking our decision. We're out.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I tried lots of different methods of communication and there was always something wrong with them. My last shot wad my best. When it failed I knew it was over for me. I didn't take **** or silently stew. Ever. Read what Staarz wrote. Does that sound like she didn't try to get through to him?
> 
> How often in these situations does the man ever try to initiate a discussion about the problems in the marriage? Not very often. He takes silence as a sign that the 10 years of problems have suddenly and miraculously disappeared. That's delusional!
> 
> ...


Yes- some people just don't care. They don't care if the other person is unhappy as long as they are happy. They just don't want to be bothered. It's true for some men and women.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> I think "Done is Done" is well-explained by Willard Harley's Giver and Taker dynamic.
> 
> Basically the theory is that everyone has a Giver and Taker inside, but most of us are more one than the other. Hence in many relationships, it is easy to see which one is the Giver and which one is the Taker.
> 
> ...


I can totally relate to this, and it's what I'm talking about when I say we aren't always mature with our emotions. We need to speak up when something makes us unhappy.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *RoseAglow said*: I think "Done is Done" is well-explained by Willard Harley's Giver and Taker dynamic.


Here is the write up on that >The Giver & Taker

Explains some of that here....


> "It should be no surprise to you that it isn't the Giver that ruins marriages -- it's the Taker. But the Giver plays a very important role in creating the problem. It's the effort of the Giver to give our spouses anything they want that sets up the Taker for it's destructive acts.
> 
> After you have been giving, giving, giving to your spouse, and receiving little in return (because you haven't bargained for much), your Taker rises up to straighten out the situation. It sees the unfairness of it all, and steps in to balance the books. But instead of coming to a more balanced arrangement, where you get something for what you give, the Taker just moves the Giver out of the picture altogether. It says, "I've been giving enough, now it's your turn to give.
> 
> Sound familiar? We've all been through it, but it doesn't work. All our Takers do is rouse our spouses' Taker and before we can say, "Bull in a china closet," we're having fight."


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Women feel responsible for the relationship. When things go wrong, we are trying to figure out what we did wrong, how we can fix it, what else we can do to improve? It sometimes takes a while to stop blaiming ourselves, and that opens door to all kinds of emotions. Passive agressive, angry, bitter, resentful. These emotions have power to kill whatever feelings we still had towards the SO. Anger is very self-destructive emotion, so eventually, in self-defence, we build distance from the partner, go where he cannot hurt us anymore. And the opposite of love is not hatred, is indifference. 

My marriage problem is that he gets verbally aggressive in moment of stress, tiredness, etc. From the very beginning I begged him not to call me names, that every time he does it piece of my love towards him gets killed. I wasn't able to set limits twenty years ago and here we are. He got things under control somehow (still a lot of pouting though) after last winter, after major outburst, I did something I neved did before: I told him I do not want to be called names anymore, and that I am leaving for weekend by myself to think things through. 
if I didn't do it, he would have continue his yells and barks. But then he did it again, after I tried (after TAM suggestions) to try a little harder. Got called "stupid idiot".

he apologized, he tries now, he tries to talk, but it's been almost four weeks, and I cannot get past it. My stomach has been in knots all this time. So, I wonder if this was the final straw for me. 

I know I would like to leave. But there are kids, mortgage, business together, so may try to do best. 

Also - I sometimes think that we both evolved since our 20s when we met. That if he was in new relationship now, he would not dare to yell, or call her names. He outgruew it, but when we are together, we are still these unsecure twenty something. It is like going back to your parents home for x-mas, and all of the sudden you feel like a teenager again, inadequate, stupid, not like the adult, responsible person you are outside your parent's home.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Most people don't change until it's too late. Sad but true.

MANY don't change when it's already too late either....aka "never learn"


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Look at it this way. If I ask my husband for help or to do something for me several times and he never follows through what is the message? He doesn't want to do it. He reserves the right to be the man of the house without follow through.


Yes, I totally agree with this. It is very frustrating sometimes, but just because I asked for something, it doesn't beholden the other person to give it to me.

It would be best if the other person clearly says "No, I don't want to do that" and both people negotiate for a win-win. However, that doesn't always happen. Not everyone is interested in finding a win-win. Not everyone is even willing to say "No, I don't want to do that", and thus the passive-aggressive games begin and resentment builds on both sides.....




clipclop2 said:


> The different techniques are not the message. I'm not talking of beating about the bush. I'm talking about delivery. I'm rarely indirect in terms of message.
> 
> They respond to all delivery techniques the same way. And it is always your fault. Always! Only doing something different doesn't work, either.


I'm not sure who "they" are in this case- are they your exes? 

There are definitely a class of people who just don't care. It doesn't matter how you discuss it, or what you do; they are present only to make themselves happy and comfortable. The rest is just noise. 



> Not every situation,especially one involving the children, can have consequences that correct a man's behaviour.


Similarly- consequences don't always change behavior; no matter what, we can't control other people. 

When you're with a good partner, they care about what you want, how you feel, if you're OK with things, etc. 

When you're with someone who doesn't care- what can you do? You set your boundaries and consequences and hope it changes things up. If it doesn't, you either suck it up and live with it, or get out.

And that's the trick, right? When someone's been an uncaring, selfish person for a long time, and has amply demonstrated that they put their own comfort above yours, and the ONLY time they are willing to change is when you are putting their comfort at risk by walking at the door....well, they've already shown you who they are, yes?

So why go back for more? There better be a huge payoff for that- if you have kids, for instance, keeping an intact family would be a big payoff. Or a long history. Otherwise....


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Now let's say you spend years trying to address your rejection, and 20 years in decide you just can't do it. All of a sudden she's interested in better sex, but you just don't care anymore. Nobody questions a guy in such a situation. It's the same thing. Often these women have spent years trying to talk to their husbands, only to be blown off and labeled nags. Then when they leave hubby is blindsided, she's labeled a waw, and if he comes to TAM he'll be told she's probably cheating because that's the only way women leave marriages.


Any jerk who refuses sex to a spouse for decades deserves the ninth circle of hell when they die. Don't care if it is a man or woman roasting in satan's firey depths.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> The different techniques are not the message. I'm not talking of beating about the bush. I'm talking about delivery. I'm rarely indirect in terms of message.
> 
> They respond to all delivery techniques the same way. And it is always your fault. Always! Only doing something different doesn't work, either.
> 
> ...


I don't know about that, cc. I really think it's that alphas just have so many things they'd like to accomplish, they are busy with their own stuff most of the time. Some of which will reflect what you'd like to have done and other stuff will be looked at by the wife as, "at least he's busy and out of my hair. Then they will convince themselves that's what they wanted from their alpha. Mostly because if they don't, they won't get all they want anyway. They'll only get a few things. Not sure that was so clear.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Perfect sense. She had said she had been trying to get me to realize that all wasn't well for years. In my typical knuckle dragging mode I interpreted it as things weren't great but we were OK. The thing I missed, as I think most men do, is that the arguing and fighting hadn't eased off because things were better. They'd dropped off because she quit giving a ****!


Yeah, this is what I was saying above in one post.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

bfree said:


> See Amp that's what I mean. I do believe that women give more emotionally to a relationship than men. That's not to say that men don't emotionally invest, just that we're not equipped as well. When problems occur as they are wont to do, men look at them as a problem to solve. But that doesn't evoke any emotions in us. But women see problems and they are already emotionally invested to the point that it provokes an emotional response in them. If enough problems manifest and especially if they aren't dealt with I think women become exhausted and their emotional well runs dry. Does that make any sense?


There is emotion. It's just not the same emotion that the wife has. It's different. It's why men don't understand. We think, we'll fix it and she thinks, it's overwhelming and has cost me all of my sanity just to get you to hear my request. I can't do it. Someone else will understand me. I don't think they understand better, they just listen for what they are supposed to do, acknowledge feelings and then F I X the problem. This time, though, the wife's feelings have been acknowledged and so it's all good. Her opinion has been heard, or so it seems and the problem is solved together.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> This issue has always made curious about men's thinking. I could understand if a wife is a nag, then her talking just becomes white noise because, "Oh, the old lady is just nagging me again" but if she doesn't nag and brings up a serious issue in the relationship, (reasonable request and tone), it's not taken seriously either. He might try for a while but then it stops. I don't understand. Is it a maturity thing?


More of an experience thing, if he gets it right.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I think guys buy into stereotypes about women and use them to provide blanket dismissal of an issue she finds important. We are irrational. If we are upset and they are not, we are crazy. Emotional. Hormonal.


I'm sorry cc2. I don't buy this. For some, yes. For others, no. Check my post above on acknowledgement and humble attitude. Not submissive, humble.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I don't think its a gender thing. I think both can get to the... my give a damn is broken.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

firebelly1 said:


> I can totally relate to this, and it's what I'm talking about when I say we aren't always mature with our emotions. We need to speak up when something makes us unhappy.


some of us speak up, and it's get dismissed, or turned around against you, as exagerrating, nagging, etc. like someone above said, you telling them you aer not happy about certain things, what they hear is all in all things are not bad.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you to those who let me ask the questions and answered. I appreciate it. Hope it didn't derail anything too badly.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Women feel responsible for the relationship. When things go wrong, we are trying to figure out what we did wrong, how we can fix it, what else we can do to improve?


Wanda, every time I read one of your posts it makes me think. I waited until I got home to address this very statement. That has to be one of the most heart wrenching things I have read in a long time. Is that really how women react when a relationship starts to deteriorate? I know I wrote that I believe women are more emotionally invested in relationships but your comment takes it much further. I know I really try to keep a balance vis-a-vis the responsibility of the relationship but I am always worried that I'm not putting in the effort that she is. But if she really feels that much responsibility for our mutual happiness I think I feel awful right now. I don't want her to shoulder that burden. I can't even imagine. It would be exhausting.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> The different techniques are not the message. I'm not talking of beating about the bush. I'm talking about delivery. I'm rarely indirect in terms of message.
> 
> They respond to all delivery techniques the same way. And it is always your fault. Always! Only doing something different doesn't work, either.
> 
> ...


I find this interesting. I dislike the alpha/beta terminology because I think we are all much more complex than that. However I've been told that I'm definitely more on the alpha side when it comes to my marriage. I'm most definitely not passive/aggressive or an avoidant type. That said, I've really had to learn to be more supportive, listen better and know when to back off. It absolutely did not come naturally. I think it helps that my wife is also not too much of a giver if we are to use that terminology. She gives when she needs to but sets limits on how much she'll give. As I said in another post she's certainly not compliant. Years ago I read No More Mr Nice Guy and I did note a few traits that I had but not too many. Maybe it's the "Nice Guys" that tend to be more avoidant and ignore their wives complaints? I know I seem to have an easier time talking to my friends wives than they do. It's made for a few "touchy" situations where I had to nip a budding attraction. Funnily enough the wives were not put off at all by me qualifying how far I was willing to let the "friendship" go. They seemed to respect my boundaries without issue.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Are you suggesting givers should be with givers and takers with takers? Maybe there is a study that suggests that?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Are you suggesting givers should be with givers and takers with takers? Maybe there is a study that suggests that?


Well, again I don't really like pigeonholing complex human behavior. And admittedly I'm not really up on this giver/taker theory. But no, I think people who realize that they are givers should force themselves not to give quite as much but not necessarily start taking either. My wife is (probably) naturally a giver but she realizes this and periodically she decides she's given all she wishes for a while and just stops. The world doesn't end if she stops giving and it allows her to decompress and find balance once again.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

bfree said:


> Wanda, every time I read one of your posts it makes me think. I waited until I got home to address this very statement. That has to be one of the most heart wrenching things I have read in a long time. Is that really how women react when a relationship starts to deteriorate? I know I wrote that I believe women are more emotionally invested in relationships but your comment takes it much further. I know I really try to keep a balance vis-a-vis the responsibility of the relationship but I am always worried that I'm not putting in the effort that she is. But if she really feels that much responsibility for our mutual happiness I think I feel awful right now. I don't want her to shoulder that burden. I can't even imagine. It would be exhausting.


I do not know if all women feel like this. and here on TAM we can find many men who try to find fault in them for their crumbling marriages.

But I am pretty sure this is pretty much relevant in case of women (and men too I guess) who stayed for long time in the relationship that was somewhat unbalanced, or with someone who clearly was stepping the boundaries.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

bfree said:


> Wanda, every time I read one of your posts it makes me think. I waited until I got home to address this very statement. That has to be one of the most heart wrenching things I have read in a long time. Is that really how women react when a relationship starts to deteriorate? I know I wrote that I believe women are more emotionally invested in relationships but your comment takes it much further. I know I really try to keep a balance vis-a-vis the responsibility of the relationship but I am always worried that I'm not putting in the effort that she is. But if she really feels that much responsibility for our mutual happiness I think I feel awful right now. I don't want her to shoulder that burden. I can't even imagine. It would be exhausting.


I'm not sure about Wanda, but that's how I've been doing it. My H just never seems satisfied with anything I do. I've spent years trying to fix it. I've wondered if I've given him enough. I had surgeries to fix my body to his liking, I have done things I wouldn't normally do, etc. It's all temporary of course because it always comes back to him not being happy. It is exhausting.

I always felt like it was my fault and that I somehow needed to make it better. 

It's not me. It's totally him and he has a way of turning it around to make it seem like he isn't a total @ss. You can put a bow on a pile of sh*t, but it's still a pile of sh*t... just a little prettier.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> Unfortunately, I think I am at that point with my H. For about 4 years now, I have tried and tried. I have begged, pleaded, cried, screamed, yelled, and even threw things (not at him).
> 
> At first, I would try to talk to him in a non-nagging way. He wouldn't budge and continued.
> 
> ...


Why do they always wait until you have lost your connection to them because of their crap to do anything or make any changes.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I do not know if all women feel like this. and here on TAM we can find many men who try to find fault in them for their crumbling marriages.
> 
> But I am pretty sure this is pretty much relevant in case of women (and men too I guess) who stayed for long time in the relationship that was somewhat unbalanced, or with someone who clearly was stepping the boundaries.


Ultimately though the unbalanced relationship causes unhappiness in both spouses so one wonders why it continues? Frankly I don't see the sense. You can only truly be happy in a relationship if there is balance and both parties are strong. I guess I just don't see what the "dominant" spouse gets out of it? It's kind of like jumping off a tall building and yelling "so far so good!"


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

staarz21 said:


> I'm not sure about Wanda, but that's how I've been doing it. My H just never seems satisfied with anything I do. I've spent years trying to fix it. I've wondered if I've given him enough. I had surgeries to fix my body to his liking, I have done things I wouldn't normally do, etc. It's all temporary of course because it always comes back to him not being happy. It is exhausting.
> 
> I always felt like it was my fault and that I somehow needed to make it better.
> 
> It's not me. It's totally him and he has a way of turning it around to make it seem like he isn't a total @ss. You can put a bow on a pile of sh*t, but it's still a pile of sh*t... just a little prettier.


Wait! You subjected yourself to surgery to please your husband? Nobody ever found sustained happiness from outside themselves. That's a hole he'll never fill unless he makes the choice to be happy with himself. You can never make him happy. I learned all about trying to find happiness from outside when I looked for it in a bottle, powder and pills. All it did was make me an unhappy alcoholic and drug abuser.

I just helped a woman I know leave an abusive relationship and she blames herself for what happened. I still don't understand. I'm trying to help her find her inner strength. You need to find that same inner strength. It's there. We all have it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

bfree said:


> Ultimately though the unbalanced relationship causes unhappiness in both spouses so one wonders why it continues? Frankly I don't see the sense. You can only truly be happy in a relationship if there is balance and both parties are strong. I guess I just don't see what the "dominant" spouse gets out of it? It's kind of like jumping off a tall building and yelling "so far so good!"


You rigth this doesn't make sense. I think the dominant side in this thinks everything goes well, because they needs are met for a while. After a while though even they notice that something is off, and things are start getting worse and worse. 

It is often about small things, things that may seems so insignifant per se, but in the context of the relationship they are just another expression of imbalance. My hubby cannot accept the word "no", he will be pushing, and re-phrasing, and ask in a such ways that suggest your options is the stupid one, that finally I have two choice: fight or agree and be passive aggressive. Then he complains that I am not saying what I really think. Oh, really? how come? that must be surprise. And I am not scared, submissive wife, but my choice is to live in a state of war, or go around that crap. But he says "come on, I'm not such monster". sure not, he is great father, and can be best husband when he is in good mood. but after a while you realize that this is like waiting for sunshine in Oregon in January .

And, frankly, I am tired of this. I want peaceful home, where I can feel relaxed.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> You rigth this doesn't make sense. I think the dominant side in this thinks everything goes well, because they needs are met for a while. After a while though even they notice that something is off, and things are start getting worse and worse.
> 
> It is often about small things, things that may seems so insignifant per se, but in the context of the relationship they are just another expression of imbalance. My hubby cannot accept the word "no", he will be pushing, and re-phrasing, and ask in a such ways that suggest your options is the stupid one, that finally I have two choice: fight or agree and be passive aggressive. Then he complains that I am not saying what I really think. Oh, really? how come? that must be surprise. And I am not scared, submissive wife, but my choice is to live in a state of war, or go around that crap. But he says "come on, I'm not such monster". sure not, he is great father, and can be best husband when he is in good mood. but after a while you realize that this is like waiting for sunshine in Oregon in January .
> 
> *And, frankly, I am tired of this. I want peaceful home, where I can feel relaxed.*


relaxed = no one bothering you = alone = lonely Hmm. not sure... Oh well.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> relaxed = no one bothering you = alone = lonely Hmm. not sure... Oh well.



No - where I am not being critized for no reason, not jumping on the couch because he is just making point by slamming kitchen cabinets door, etc. Where I can be myself. Where my opinion matters. Where nobody calls me names, EVER. Not lonely at all. I feel lonely right now. I simply want relationship based on mutual RESPECT, which by what everybody on TAM says, it's basis for succesful relationhsip.

I have two kids and I alwasy be "bothered" by them, and this is perfectly fine by me.

Besides, did you even bothered to read the rest of my post or you just scan for certain words and phrases, like NSA?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> No - where I am not being critized for no reason, not jumping on the couch because he is just making point by slamming kitchen cabinets door, etc. Where I can be myself. Where my opinion matters. Where nobody calls me names, EVER. Not lonely at all. I feel lonely right now. I simply want relationship based on mutual RESPECT, which by what everybody on TAM says, it's basis for succesful relationhsip.
> 
> I have two kids and I alwasy be "bothered" by them, and this is perfectly fine by me.
> 
> Besides, did you even bothered to read the rest of my post or you just scan for certain words and phrases, like NSA?


I just scanned.  No, really I just read that post and thought that. No Strings Attached? TAM speak? Not sure. Anyway, TAM is your friend, not your emeny. 

Well, that's abuse and you need to get away, WandaJ. Or he needs to do some real changing. Sorry you are being frightened and mistreated. I forgot that you wrote about the names he calls you.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I think guys buy into stereotypes about women and use them to provide blanket dismissal of an issue she finds important. We are irrational. If we are upset and they are not, we are crazy. Emotional. Hormonal.




Quite honestly and with respect, that sounds like a stereotype to me.



Much of this thread makes me uncomfortable. Pretty sure it is not because I am not willing to own my part of our marriage's death. Rather it is because I have.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

bfree said:


> Wanda, I saw this post in another thread. I've seen quite a few of your posts recently and you seem to be very insightful. I'm curious. Why does it seem that women, once they reach a certain point, aren't able to rekindle their feelings for their partner? Or maybe don't even want to try? I've worked with men in a group counseling setting that I thought were too far gone but somehow they fall in love with their spouses again. But it seems once a woman is done, she is done. I'm just wondering.
> 
> And of course anyone is free to respond. The more the merrier so to speak.


I think women generally take longer to reach the point of giving up. By the time most women are done, there is so much water under the bridge and so much resentment built up. It would take a special circumstance and a lot of time and change for a man to regain trust.

That's my crazy opinion anyway.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> And, frankly, I am tired of this. I want peaceful home, where I can feel relaxed.





Don't let go of wanting that. I don't know your story other than the few posts above. But it sounds like you have been dealing with abuse for some time.



You may not know yet what you can do to move past the old ways, with or without him. (Maybe you do know -- I've not been keeping up on my TAM reading.). But, there are ways to create a life of peace. What you have had is not your destiny.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

bfree said:


> Wanda, every time I read one of your posts it makes me think. I waited until I got home to address this very statement. That has to be one of the most heart wrenching things I have read in a long time. Is that really how women react when a relationship starts to deteriorate? I know I wrote that I believe women are more emotionally invested in relationships but your comment takes it much further. I know I really try to keep a balance vis-a-vis the responsibility of the relationship but I am always worried that I'm not putting in the effort that she is. But if she really feels that much responsibility for our mutual happiness I think I feel awful right now. I don't want her to shoulder that burden. I can't even imagine. It would be exhausting.




No doubt WandaJ is sincere and has been emotionally invested and takes responsibility in her relationship, but to extrapolate from that data point, or from half a dozen XX data points on this thread seems risky. Even if women are generally different than men generally are when it comes to this or that, and somehow we are discussing a matter of "settled science", it would be a mistake to think that says anything about your wife in particular.



I suppose you know that bfree, and are looking for places to start thinking from rather than stop. I don't mean to be pedantic about it. 



But, I am sitting here reading YOUR thread hearing your concerns about whether who is taking on too much whatever.... hearing that YOU care about your wife and that YOU respect her...hearing you help others do the same.... That tells me putting in effort and sharing responsibility isn't a guy thing or gal thing, but a people thing.



ETA: And yes, that was heart wrenching.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm thinking of young men buying into stereotypes, not more mature men.

The " they" to whom I referred are men like my ex husband and those described by others here.

I don't fully but alpha and beta but I think so called nice guys are beta and not really nice. Most people are mixtures depending on the circumstances but some men are classic beta/ nice guy and that often turns into bitterly disappointed passive aggressiveness because they thought they were buying something by being "nice". When they don't get the desired outcome and dint realize that they were the only ones who had a clue it was transactional they use backhand methods of dealing.

But, that's not really what I am talking about in the case of a woman being done. It can be any number of behaviors over a long period that she just can't figure out how to fix.

I like the giver/ taker concept. 

I remember being upset with my ex husband because he didn't really know anything about me but I knew everything about him. I put thought into things. He fulfilled obligations.

Sad, really.

The thing about not realizing you are close to done I don't quite get. That sounds a little like BPD. 

I gave myself days alone writing and thinking to determine that I was done. And when I said I was I started to plan my exit.

Bfree, please don't put your wife I the emotional space that an unhappy wife is in.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

bfree said:


> Wait! You subjected yourself to surgery to please your husband? Nobody ever found sustained happiness from outside themselves. That's a hole he'll never fill unless he makes the choice to be happy with himself. You can never make him happy. I learned all about trying to find happiness from outside when I looked for it in a bottle, powder and pills. All it did was make me an unhappy alcoholic and drug abuser.
> 
> I just helped a woman I know leave an abusive relationship and she blames herself for what happened. I still don't understand. I'm trying to help her find her inner strength. You need to find that same inner strength. It's there. We all have it.


I found my strength immediately after the tummy tuck I had last November. I remember sitting there in so much pain, crying and thinking why did I do this?! 

I could still wear a bikini the way I was before. I am 5'6" and at the time I was 123lbs. I wasn't fat or even remotely overweight. The loose skin from pregnancies wasn't even enough to have a regular horizontal incision from hip to hip. I have one, but I also have a 2 inch vertical scar that they had to make in order to close me up. There just wasn't enough skin to pull down. 

The only thing that surgery did for me was give me abs and a HUGE scar. I like the abs. It helps me feel like my workouts are worth it, but I would have been happy just being fit with 3 kids. I didn't need the stretchmarks gone for that. 

In the end, it doesn't make a difference. He will still find something wrong with me. Of course he is saying now that he was being stupid and watching too much porn, that's why he didn't find my post baby body that attractive. He says he isn't watching porn now and I am the most beautiful thing on the planet. But whatever. I don't need him to think I'm hot. I work out hard now to ensure that I KNOW I'm hot. That way I don't look to him for his stupid opinion.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think it's a trust issue. At a certain point you simply don't trust someone not to repeat behaviors, as past is the best predictor of future. Especially when a spouse is not interested in addressing anything until they're going to be divorced; in that case you have to question the motivation, which just reeks of selfishness. So it wasn't important while your spouse was unhappy but still there, it didn't become important until you stood to lose. That suggests a person that will go right back to crappy behavior once they think a spouse is settled, because they've already shown they're not that interested in whether their spouse is happy, only that they don't leave. It wouldn't take my hb threatening to leave for me to address things that bother him, I do that because to some extent his happiness is partly on me.
> 
> A way to flip genders here is this: wife won't have sex often. Hubby says he's leaving, so she starts putting out; do you really trust that it's not duty sex she'll stop once you're settled? She's already shown the health of the marriage isn't important, only that their is a marriage, so you can't ever really trust her.
> 
> ...


1000x this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> Don't let go of wanting that. I don't know your story other than the few posts above. But it sounds like you have been dealing with abuse for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> You may not know yet what you can do to move past the old ways, with or without him. (Maybe you do know -- I've not been keeping up on my TAM reading.). But, there are ways to create a life of peace. What you have had is not your destiny.


Thanks Piece of Sky. You right, it is really easy to settle, once things calm down a bit. I guess it is easier to keep status quo, than starting revolution. At the same time , leaving is a process, often long time. I feel like I am in the middle of it.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

murphy5 said:


> human nature is pretty basic. Say you love a spouse. you try to have sex. Partner treats you like you have festering ebola. in your mind you say to yourself "its ok, i don't really love her that much anyway. Oh well. Guess i will work on my ship in the bottle project again"
> 
> after hundreds of these rejections, you start to believe your justification to yourself. Then one day the spouse tries to be nice to you, but you have convinced yourself she is the devil incarnate--never to be trusted with your heart again. So, it is over. Your heart for this partner is buried 10 feet under, and its not getting dug up, no matter what. Even if you DID dig it up, it would smell funny and have green snot dripping off of it. best to leave it buried at that point.


Winner!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Thanks Piece of Sky. You right, it is really easy to settle, once things calm down a bit. I guess it is easier to keep status quo, than starting revolution. At the same time , leaving is a process, often long time. I feel like I am in the middle of it.


As you said, leaving is a process and often long one. During that process there are periods where it seems too late but it's not yet. Unfortunately resentment builds during this time when there's a hopeless feeling that the other person will not change. But people are slowly sabotaging the relationship by letting days or years go by with no resolution. It's still quite possible that OP in the other thread is changing before the infamous 'too late' date.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Winner!


not really, this quote has this feeling, that you have to stay, that if you are done, it's your fault, because you didn't give him/her another, chance. if you could only stop being so resentful, and keep waiting for the miracle maybe things will work out. someday. 

most likely not.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Bfree, please don't put your wife I the emotional space that an unhappy wife is in.


I know. I just never want her to get to a point where she feels I am not giving 100% or neglecting her needs. Sometimes when things get hectic I worry that I'm pushing her down the priority list. She says she knows that there are times when other things come up but I have never once felt she wasn't putting me first even when she was dealing with other things. Unfortunately I have periodic tunnel vision and it takes a conscious effort to turn my head and look around to see what I might be neglecting. Fortunately I haven't allowed my tunnel vision to turn into a case of advanced opticus rectus.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

All you can do is the best you can with the abilities and knowledge you have. Sometimes that's enough. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes we screw up. 

Most importantly, forgive yourself. You deserve the break. Don't let anyone tell you how to feel. Make the best of what you have right now. 

Sounds easy? It isn't. Forgive yourself and try again with a little more knowledge and experience. That's it. You will screw up. That's a given. Hopefully, it will not be too badly. I bet most times, it isn't.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

bfree said:


> I know. I just never want her to get to a point where she feels I am not giving 100% or neglecting her needs. Sometimes when things get hectic I worry that I'm pushing her down the priority list. She says she knows that there are times when other things come up but I have never once felt she wasn't putting me first even when she was dealing with other things. Unfortunately I have periodic tunnel vision and it takes a conscious effort to turn my head and look around to see what I might be neglecting. Fortunately I haven't allowed my tunnel vision to turn into a case of advanced opticus rectus.


It looks to me like you are on the rigth track. We all sometimes push SO down the priority lists because of all the requirements life throws at us. As long as we are aware when we do it, communicate about it, and try to make up for it, the healthy relationship should survive it. The problem is when SO is permamently at the bottom of to do list.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I suspect that your wife isn't shy about reminding you when you drift off into other projects. between that and your self awareness and willingness to be corrected I can't see where being aware would lead to worry. 

when there's a giant deficit that goes on indefinitely that's where you get into trouble. I think the people were talking about simply are devoid of awareness. and that could be because they don't care or because it just isn't in them. and while understanding that it's just the way some one is built helps cut them a little slack it doesn't fix the marriage. So the result is the same regardless of the reason. realizing there's no hope of change is the only challenge remaining to the neglected spouse. 

every glimmer hope is a setback.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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