# Change in attitude killed sex (long, sorry)



## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

My story is similar to many here. Wife (44) and I (45) married almost 16 years. Have 2 kids, 8 and 6, and we both work full time, demanding jobs, her moreso than me. Throughout our relationship and marriage, sex was always great. Not going at it every day, but I'd say 6-8 times a month, even after the kids were born (First few weeks/months after kids being born the exception). Was a mix of passionate nights, some planned and some not, plus the occassional morning quickie that often turned into more than that.

When she did reject me, (which was often, because I'm a horn dog), it was always with a playful slap and a "maybe tonight" type of thing, nothing that ever bothered me because for the most part I was gettin enough. Our sex usually started with me making the first move, and her saying something like "I'm not in the mood but you can probably get me in the mood", followed by some seduction on my part, and then usually a bout of sex so good that we would actually high five and say "we need to do that more often!" 

She would initiate on occasion by saying things like "Let's set the alarm early tomorrow" or "I got some new underwear I think you'll like", and off we'd go. Or, if I needed a quickie, she'd often obliged me with a "mercy f*ck" or some other type of relief. In exchange, I was a guy who would do pretty much anything and everything to make sure the household ran smoothly, gave her time and space with her friends, to take naps when needed, and essentially put her on a pedestal because she meant the world to me, and me to her.

About 3 years ago kind of out of the blue she drops a bit of a bomb on me - says we spend too much time together, I'm too controlling, she's been under my thunmb all these years and she's gonna start spending more time with friends etc etc. Soon after I noticed that our little signs of affection for each other started dropping off - the rubs on the shoulder when we were driving long trips, little hugs and touches throughout the day etc. 

Now, about this time she was embarking on a new career. We had worked in the same office for 10 years, and now she was moving toward another job and career path. Once that ultimately took off, things changed even moreso. My morning gropes when she was out of the shower and in her robe, and requests for some nookie or a quickie, we met with anger imstead of acceptance or a friendly rejection. Now I was treating her like a piece of meat, and she's not the subservient little wifey that's gonna get on her back every time her husband wants to have sex. My playful texts about how hot she looked this morning, and maybe I'll jump her tonight, went from a smiley face response to "please stop doing that". 

We still had sex, even really good sex, but it was becoming less frequent, and the subject was a tense one rather than a fun one. We've been to counselling, couples and individual. Pretty much same story - I claim she's not meeting my needs, and she says my needs are for constant sex, but that I need to meet her needs emotionally beforte she'll feel like meeting mine. In other words, behave like a good dog every second of every day, and I'll reward you with a toy once in a while. But don't pee on the carpet or chew one of my shoes even once, or you won't get that toy for a long time.

So, now we haven't had sex since November. We barely speak, sleep in separate rooms, there's no touching of any kind, and we are drifting dangeroulsy far apart, if not too far already. There's been talk of splitting up, but the thought of leaving my kids terrifies me to no end, especially since I am the basically the primary caregiver due to her job hours and travel. However how much longer can I stay in what has become a sexless (possibly loveless) marriage before I go crazy or simply decide to find a mistress. I don't want that, I want to make love to my wife, not f*ck a waitress. But it appears that she's somehow lost respect or admiration for me, I think due to the new people she's met on her new job, now I'm just the schmuck who didn't break away like she did (even though I make more money). And without respect there's no desire or attraction. 

I am who I am - I can't change my personality in the hopes of making her feel desire or attraction for me. If the guy I am (and have been) ain't good enough anymore, that what am I to do? Have to be true to myslef right?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Do you know who her boyfriend is yet? Or are you still in the denial stage?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Better,

I am sorry, but I think your marriage is too late to be saved. I somehow think that your assumption is correct. No respect = no desire. Your wife does not desire you, so it's time to move on. Yes it is painful. But better deal with the pain NOW and be done with it, rather than prolonging it to decades of pain. Sorry for my pessimism, I hope optimist people here will counterbalance my pessimism.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Do you know who her boyfriend is yet? Or are you still in the denial stage?


Considered that. Even found some evidence that she may have been pursuing someone. Whatever that was I think it passed, but the fact remains she's attracted to a different type of guy now, whether or not there is anyone specific right now. Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lionlady (Sep 12, 2012)

It really sounds like she is having an affair.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Good chance it's an affair

Start to investigate quietly 

Get some VARs a key logger and look at your cell phone bill

Also read up in the CWI section here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Do you know who her boyfriend is yet? Or are you still in the denial stage?


Oh, you too, WorkingOnMe? I think this needs to be in Coping with Infidelity.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> We've been to counselling, couples and individual. Pretty much same story - I claim she's not meeting my needs, and she says my needs are for constant sex, but that *I need to meet her needs emotionally before she'll feel like meeting mine. In other words, behave like a good dog every second of every day, and I'll reward you with a toy once in a while. * But don't pee on the carpet or chew one of my shoes even once, or you won't get that toy for a long time.have been) ain't good enough anymore, that what am I to do?


Wow... she tells you what the problem is and you dismiss her answer with this arrogance :scratchhead:

I sure hope you didn't reply with this at the time... 

What needs did she say were being unmet? 

Your post suggests that her needs aren't as important as yours.

Having said that no sex for 6 months is unacceptable bar illness/health issues or geographically distance. I'm not surprised your going mad. This isn't going to get better without 'someone' rocking the boat and starting a discussion about how to proceed...where do you both see yourselves next year or in 5 years time?

In separate bedrooms, not speaking to each other :scratchhead:

Time is important here...the longer this goes on the less likely you will be able to repair the damage it's doing.

PS: Don't find a wh0re to fvck (mistress is a such bullsh!t word...to make something scummy sounds less...scummy.) while your still married.
If it gets to that stage divorce your wife.... don't become that sort of lowlife person. 

No-one likes a cheater... least of all the cheater him/herself usually.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Do you know who her boyfriend is yet? Or are you still in the denial stage?


I "liked" this comment. I don't LIKE it at all, but it is probably the truth.

The reason for the divide was possibly due to someone else filling that space.

When you attempt to reach for her in that way, she's going to stone wall you, get angry. 

Your sleeping in separate rooms.

I'm not sure if the new guy is on the new job, but maybe he helped her get the job. Maybe she is also on her way out of a relationship with you. 

Even though many of us consider affairs to mean you are no longer in a relationship.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

waiwera said:


> Wow... she tells you what the problem is and you dismiss her answer with this arrogance :scratchhead:
> 
> I sure hope you didn't reply with this at the time...
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well given that on one occasion during this time when I initiated, she said to me "we'll you've been good the last couple of weeks, so I guess so." Honestly felt like I was being trained. If you behave the way I want you to, you'll be rewarded with sex. Not really the way I envisioned marital sexual relations to be
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Well given that on one occasion during this time when I initiated, she said to me "we'll you've been good the last couple of weeks, so I guess so." Honestly felt like I was being trained. If you behave the way I want you to, you'll be rewarded with sex. Not really the way I envisioned marital sexual relations to be
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We ALL teach others how to treat us... she does this to you...because she can. 

Did you have sex with her after she said that? If you did your making YOURSELF into that little doggie...not her.

Again... what needs did she say weren't being met.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Well given that on one occasion during this time when I initiated, she said to me "we'll you've been good the last couple of weeks, so I guess so." Honestly felt like I was being trained. If you behave the way I want you to, you'll be rewarded with sex. Not really the way I envisioned marital sexual relations to be
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And what was your response to this? Did you wag your tail and take your reward, or grab your balls from her purse and go hang out with your buddies watching a hockey game (or some other manly endeavour)?

C


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

PBear said:


> And what was your response to this? Did you wag your tail and take your reward, or grab your balls from her purse and go hang out with your buddies watching a hockey game (or some other manly endeavour)?
> 
> C


Makes sense. A bunch of manly stuff, and put yourself back out there. You cannot look like you are waiting.

I'd find positive indicators of an affair. Her behaviors seem to indicate she's not yours anymore.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

waiwera said:


> We ALL teach others how to treat us... she does this to you...because she can.
> 
> Did you have sex with her after she said that? If you did your making YOURSELF into that little doggie...not her.
> 
> Again... what needs did she say weren't being met.


She seems to have had an inoculation to stop herself feeling anything for her husband.

This usually happens when there is another man/woman on the scene, either in an EA or a PA.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> She seems to have had an inoculation to stop herself feeling anything for her husband.
> 
> This usually happens when there is another man/woman on the scene, either in an EA or a PA.


Imagine, they might even "MAX" it out as well.

Knowing if any feelings stirred up for you it would invalidate what they are doing.

So they maximize their lack of feeling with you and play the game for all it's worth.

When your in this position, the only way out is to drop them. It removes a critical piece of the equation in the affair. The stepping stone, the door mat, the pedestal.

Once you move on and live your life for yourself, what they are doing has less of a great value.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

OP - I know some of us are probably pi$$ing you off with our comments.

We're not trying to....well actually i am.... but only to kick your arse into action.

If you keep on doing nothing you will lose everything. 

If you want to save your marriage get out there and do something about it! At the very least start a discussion... you have absolutely nothing to lose at this stage. 

If your not concerned about saving the marriage just carry on doing what your doing... shouldn't take too much longer for the full marital system failure to occur.

I also believe she may be cheating and even if she's isn't she is well on her way to totally disconnecting from you and your marriage.

Hurry...talk to her today!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

OP, you mentioned there were signs that she was trying to connect with someone. Care to share some details of what you had observed?

In my case, my wife did have an EA. But, she started distancing herself and rejecting me sexually (and other ways) way before that, or so I believe.

And, then, once she started having an EA, our sex-life improved! (I suspect she started feeling better about herself, as a sexual/attractive being, I'm not sure. Or, maybe she had some guilt, and that guilt compelled her to throw me an occasional bone.)

Also, I too am curious about what she says her needs are that are not being met.


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## mule kick (Apr 10, 2012)

I think you just married an unappreciative woman. Get the divorce. Meet someone that loves you for who you are, which is far better than she appreciates. Love is crazy, sometimes stupid. I guarantee she won't regret the upcoming divorce and neither should you. Take good care of your kids, they are going to need it.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

waiwera said:


> Wow... she tells you what the problem is and you dismiss her answer with this arrogance :scratchhead:
> 
> I sure hope you didn't reply with this at the time...
> 
> ...


I don't see enough information in what he said to deem his response arrogance.

If anything, I see that her response hurt him, and his expressing this with the dog reference is an honest expression of that hurt. If so, shaming him about it is counter to finding a solution for whatever is wrong. 

It remains to be seen what he has done or not done to meet her needs.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

PieceOfSky said:


> I don't see enough information in what he said to deem his response arrogance.
> 
> If anything, I see that her response hurt him, and his expressing this with the dog reference is an honest expression of that hurt. If so, shaming him about it is counter to finding a solution for whatever is wrong.
> 
> It remains to be seen what he has done or not done to meet her needs.


I disagree...his response was rude and dismissive of her desire to have her needs met. If he stated it to her like he did here... I can imagine the sound of her vagina clamping shut was heard over the hills and far away. 

Her needs are just as important as his and I would suggest her feelings were hurt long ago.... (about 3 years ago to be exact) Hence the underlying and seething anger she is projecting now.

But really only the OP and his know for sure...we only get one side of most stories here on TAM.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

My spidy senses are tingling!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

waiwera said:


> Her needs are just as important as his


Of course.

But, until we know what those are, and until we know how "reasonable" and mature they are, and how she expressed them, I see no justification for declaring that the way he put his feelings out on the table here is rude.

I'll agree how they react to each other when discussing their needs can have regrettable consequences.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

waiwera said:


> I disagree...his response was rude and dismissive of her desire to have her needs met. If he stated it to her like he did here... I can imagine the sound of her vagina clamping shut was heard over the hills and far away.
> 
> Her needs are just as important as his and I would suggest her feelings were hurt long ago.... (about 3 years ago to be exact) Hence the underlying and seething anger she is projecting now.
> 
> But really only the OP and his know for sure...we only get one side of most stories here on TAM.


I may have missed it, but has she communicated her needs to him?


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

okeydokie said:


> I may have missed it, but has she communicated her needs to him?


Essentially her needs are for me to be mr happy and supportive and not be angry and tense all the time and let her do her job without me getting angry or upset that she's not around very much or not in the mood for sex when she is home. The problem is that if i am exactly what she wants me to be for a while, and then try to initiate sex, I still get rejected, and then I get pissed. And the longer we go without bring intimate, the more tense and angry I get. And then when I'm tense and angry that doesn't make he want to be intimate. Caught in a Vicious cycle that has been spinning round and round for quite some time now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

New career...

Does she work with a lot of men??

Can you check her phone for text and emails?

VAR her car. 

So from where you are in your marriage it seems to be all but gone so finding out if there is an affair most likely won't matter. But at least if you do find out the last piece in the puzzle will fit and you will have your answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

2dumb: It just sounds all too "affairish" to me! Your description matches that of my first wife who was a "corporate climber." Sex was extremely infrequent, then I discovered personal sexual grooming habits of hers, like shaving it off. Seeing this and thinking that she was doing this for me and then having her reject my advances, sent me into investigation mode.

Came to find out that she was banging a corporate VP who had put her on the fast track to her career advancement as well as to our divorce.

I'm one of those naive people who romantically thinks that love is forever, and they'd never cheat on our relationship. I've been proven a fool twice now!

Time to put her under the microscope! You have every right to check out her cell-phone calling and texting records, and her computer activity. You might be amazed at what you find. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong about my assessment and that it is not an EA or PA. And not that what you're going through isn't a living hell in and of itself!

Sorry that you're going through this, but you've brought yourself to the right place here at TAM!


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Essentially her needs are for me to be mr happy and supportive and not be angry and tense all the time and let her do her job without me getting angry or upset that she's not around very much or not in the mood for sex when she is home. The problem is that if i am exactly what she wants me to be for a while, and then try to initiate sex, I still get rejected, and then I get pissed. And the longer we go without bring intimate, the more tense and angry I get. And then when I'm tense and angry that doesn't make he want to be intimate. Caught in a Vicious cycle that has been spinning round and round for quite some time now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I wouldn't meet those needs either.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

okeydokie said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't meet those needs either.


The problem is when I do act exactly like she wants me to, whether its for a week or more or whatever, I still get shot down 90% of the time. Eventually it wears on you, and it's difficult to me mr happy and supportive and meet those needs of hers when mine do not get met in return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> The problem is when I do act exactly like she wants me to, whether its for a week or more or whatever, I still get shot down 90% of the time. Eventually it wears on you, and it's difficult to me mr happy and supportive and meet those needs of hers when mine do not get met in return.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


are you happy ?

time to make a move. she makes more than you and you take care of most of the child care.

divorce her and get custody,child suprot and allimoney.


set her free this is no way to be in a marriage.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Don't you think it is time for you to meet your own needs?

In other words you need to make yourself happy and stop thinking if you make her happy she'll return the favor.

Here, there is a quiz in this link, give it a shot, see if this is you?

No More Mr. Nice Guy


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

okeydokie said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't meet those needs either.


I don't get how they can't comprehend that they kinda make who we are.

She probably doesn't really like this on the edge undersexed guy as much as she does the one who gets sex.

It would take a couple of short sessions a week to remedy this.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Considered that. Even found some evidence that she may have been pursuing someone. Whatever that was I think it passed,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please elaborate on this evidence, and who she may have been pursuing, and when that was, and why you think it passed.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom on you, but, I repeatedly swept signs of my wife's EA under the rug, and it feels you are dismissing this possibility a bit too easily.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> are you happy ?
> 
> time to make a move. she makes more than you and you take care of most of the child care.
> 
> ...


I actually make more than she does, quite a bit. I suspect that one day she'll make more but for the time being I make more, she spends it freely. 

Not sure what to do. Feel stuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> I don't get how they can't comprehend that they kinda make who we are.
> 
> She probably doesn't really like this on the edge undersexed guy as much as she does the one who gets sex.
> 
> It would take a couple of short sessions a week to remedy this.


In my case, I don't think it is problem of comprehension. Even if she comprehended that 10 minutes a week would give the old me a chance to survive, I don't think she would want to be so generous. Not only that, I don't think she would want to want to. I'm dying here, and her indifference hurts.

That's how I see my situation, anyways.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Not sure what to do. Feel stuck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm trying to stop wasting time. The holding pattern is over. I do not know how it is going to end, except that I'm going to do what I need to do to have a healthy loving relationship.

Feeling stuck has led me to paralysis.

Accepting that leaving may turn out to be the right thing to do (for me, and for my kids) has given me back my freedom to change what I need to change about me; before such acceptance, I think I was on a subconscious quest to get my life over as fast as possible, stop having hopes (they only get squashed), and just numbing myself to everything as much as possible.

I'm starting to feel that with her or with out her, my life is important d*mn it, and my kids need to see at least one of us have an unstoppable drive for mental health and happiness; at least one of us needs to put in the energy and take courageous acts towards achieving that.

I've also started thinking: Assume it doesn't work out with my wife, sooner or later. What do I want to be able to honestly tell my future love what I had to face about myself, and how I learned to fix it so that my future with her won't go down the same drain? Maybe my present wife won't appreciate anything I do for me at this point, but, my future partner (MyPresentWife 3.0, or someone else), will. And, someday, so will my kids.

The ship is leaving. She'll either jump on board or she won't.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Please elaborate on this evidence, and who she may have been pursuing, and when that was, and why you think it passed.
> 
> I don't want to be all doom and gloom on you, but, I repeatedly swept signs of my wife's EA under the rug, and it feels you are dismissing this possibility a bit too easily.


She had been meeting regularly with a guy about work, and i found out She was texting him frequently as well. i found this out when I saw texts on her phone from a girlfriend of her giving her advice on how to act. Things like "dont text him for a while, be mysterious, unavailable, play it cool" etc. I never saw the texts to or from the guy, only the girl. Plus she was checking out the guys wife on Facebook. I think that passed because I know this guy very well and whatever interest she may have had I don't believe was reciprocated. She claims the interest was professionally only and that I misunderstood. I don't believe that. And it goes to show that she is attracted to these type of guys in her new career field rather than the type of guy I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

waiwera said:


> OP - I know some of us are probably pi$$ing you off with our comments.
> 
> We're not trying to....well actually i am.... but only to kick your arse into action.
> 
> ...


I tried. Every time I try to bring it up, she says its not a good time. And I respond "it's never a good time." I asked "do you love me" and she says of course I do". But then "are you in love with me?". Answer "I don't know". To me, that's a no. 

We may be too far gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

Sorry you are going through this. If you get a divorce, you can still see your kids a lot, especially since you are the primary caregiver. The judge will rule that you must both live within the same school district. My brother has his kids 4 days/week and their mother has them 3 days/week. They live so close, they even see each other on days that aren't theirs at sports games, etc. So don't let fear of not seeing your kids stop you from getting out of this very unhealthy relationship.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> In my case, I don't think it is problem of comprehension. Even if she comprehended that 10 minutes a week would give the old me a chance to survive, I don't think she would want to be so generous. Not only that, I don't think she would want to want to. I'm dying here, and her indifference hurts.
> 
> That's how I see my situation, anyways.


This is truth. Simple but true.

Perhaps if you may almost be done, you give you a chance. Perhaps might have to use an outside source.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> This is truth. Simple but true.
> 
> Perhaps if you may almost be done, you give you a chance. Perhaps might have to use an outside source.


Not sure what you mean by outside source.

If you mean IC, I recently started doing that. And, I'm picking up from here I have been doing it all wrong (Mr. Nice Guy -- but the nice version LOL).

If you mean EA/PA, or a sex worker, then that's not something that would work for me. It's either her and only her, or its over and then I'm free. That, if nothing else, is how I'm wired. I'm no saint, by conventional standards, but watching my dad's EA (PA?) torture my mother for years makes me averse to that sort of thing and then some.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

waiwera said:


> Wow... she tells you what the problem is and you dismiss her answer with this arrogance :scratchhead:
> 
> I sure hope you didn't reply with this at the time...
> 
> ...


I agree, it sounds like you are dismissive of her emotional needs which she has voiced are very important to her, just as sex is to you.
I will tell you this now, you need to try to help with her emotional needs and she will most likely reciprocate. This was me and my WH. I felt like your wife did, like he was using me for sex and ignoring my emotional needs, but he is the one that ended up cheating. 
Basically it is a vicious cycle. She feels you have abandoned her emotionally, so she abandons you sexually because emotions are strongly tied to sex, and around and around you go. This will NOT end well, one will end up cheating on the other.

Just wanted to add that if you do this and she still is unresponsive then definitely do self improvement and that may wake her up and do a world of good for you.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> I agree, it sounds like you are dismissive of her emotional needs which she has voiced are very important to her, just as sex is to you.
> I will tell you this now, you need to try to help with her emotional needs and she will most likely reciprocate. This was me and my WH. I felt like your wife did, like he was using me for sex and ignoring my emotional needs, but he is the one that ended up cheating.
> Basically it is a vicious cycle. She feels you have abandoned her emotionally, so she abandons you sexually because emotions are strongly tied to sex, and around and around you go. This will NOT end well, one will end up cheating on the other.
> 
> Just wanted to add that if you do this and she still is unresponsive then definitely do self improvement and that may wake her up and do a world of good for you.



Please note that OP went on to say, after the message you quoted:



2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Essentially her needs are for me to be mr happy and supportive and not be angry and tense all the time and let her do her job without me getting angry or upset that she's not around very much or not in the mood for sex when she is home. The problem is that if i am exactly what she wants me to be for a while, and then try to initiate sex, I still get rejected, and then I get pissed. And the longer we go without bring intimate, the more tense and angry I get. And then when I'm tense and angry that doesn't make he want to be intimate. Caught in a Vicious cycle that has been spinning round and round for quite some time now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And this:



2dumb2knowbetter said:


> The problem is when I do act exactly like she wants me to, whether its for a week or more or whatever, I still get shot down 90% of the time. Eventually it wears on you, and it's difficult to me mr happy and supportive and meet those needs of hers when mine do not get met in return.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And this:



2dumb2knowbetter said:


> I tried. Every time I try to bring it up, she says its not a good time. And I respond "it's never a good time." I asked "do you love me" and she says of course I do". But then "are you in love with me?". Answer "I don't know". To me, that's a no.
> 
> We may be too far gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And, at some point in their time-line, this happened:



2dumb2knowbetter said:


> She had been meeting regularly with a guy about work, and i found out She was texting him frequently as well. i found this out when I saw texts on her phone from a girlfriend of her giving her advice on how to act. Things like "dont text him for a while, be mysterious, unavailable, play it cool" etc. I never saw the texts to or from the guy, only the girl. Plus she was checking out the guys wife on Facebook. I think that passed because I know this guy very well and whatever interest she may have had I don't believe was reciprocated. She claims the interest was professionally only and that I misunderstood. I don't believe that. And it goes to show that she is attracted to these type of guys in her new career field rather than the type of guy I am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



The message you quoted came way before anything had been said that warranted the self-assured conclusions expressed in that quote. His subsequent words suggest that if anyone has been dismissive of anyone's needs here, it is his wife's.

And, yes, we only have his version of events, and we don't even have all of that yet. It could be he's an insensitive selfish a$$hole horndog pissed that his wife wants him to show her some respect. I'm open to that possibility. But, I'm open to others too (and that possibility seems less and less likely the more he posts). My hunch is he is more like me, more like a Mr. Nice Guy, and if so he needs a chance to say his piece before taken to task, deserved or not.

In any case, he's made it to TAM. He's got that going for him. And, I suspect we won't be hearing from her, but, of course that is just speculation from my own miserable bias.


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## mule kick (Apr 10, 2012)

NeverMore said:


> I agree, it sounds like you are dismissive of her emotional needs which she has voiced are very important to her, just as sex is to you.
> I will tell you this now, you need to try to help with her emotional needs and she will most likely reciprocate. This was me and my WH. I felt like your wife did, like he was using me for sex and ignoring my emotional needs, but he is the one that ended up cheating.
> Basically it is a vicious cycle. She feels you have abandoned her emotionally, so she abandons you sexually because emotions are strongly tied to sex, and around and around you go. This will NOT end well, one will end up cheating on the other.
> 
> Just wanted to add that if you do this and she still is unresponsive then definitely do self improvement and that may wake her up and do a world of good for you.


The way he described his sex life, it was always on her schedule. I realize this is in no way a complete picture but it seems their relationship wasn't built on solid ground in the first place. Like so often happens when things fall apart, she could put her list together and he could do everything on it but then there would just be another list. In the end, it's just you and there's nothing you can do to turn her heart around.


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## think_about (Apr 25, 2013)

2dumb2knowbetter, this whole issue is not really about sex! nevermore hit the problem on the head.

and she's very unlikely having an affair. but she might trying to get respect (attention, not sex) from somebody else. she told you what she needed and you are dismissing it because you are hurt and frustrated. 
I think your wife (maybe fuelled by the new experiences of her new job) has developed a bit. from what i am reading it sounds like she wants to be perceived more like a person, an individual human and not just the roles she has in life; mother, wife, woman. 
she told you that her emotional needs are not met and she says she perceived you as controlling (emotional need). meaning she feels disrespected by you. so when you think that her denying you sex is disrespecting to you, think how she feels if she thinks you are not respecting her as a person, but you might get frustrated in front of her when you are not getting sex? that makes her feel like a sexual object. 
you say you are frustrated because you feel like a dog that gets thrown a bone now and then (or not at all). like it is a reward. and then you say that you are annoyed because you are still not getting any although you are doing everything that is required of you. isn't that the kind of reward thinking you are so frustrated about? and your wife will have noticed/ participated in the thinking style too. sex becomes a currency and her the sexual object that has to give it. 
now that she wants to be treated more like a person, your constant sexual concern is making her feel more and more disrespected. she wants a partner, who is interested in her and not in achieving sex with her (that's at least how she probably perceives it).
(you taking a mistress because of no sex by the way, will just support the argument of sexual object. if you see it from her point of view: how can you respect her as a person that you love more than anything else in the world when all you need to be happy is sex?)
this of course must be frustrating for you, because you were happy how things were. but life-long marriage is hard work. it is unlikely that people dont change during such a long time. if you want to last you need to have the ability to develop together. in this case it might be a development away from your classical roles and more to individual people.
if you want her then you guys really need to talk. you might have to be the bigger person and do the first calm and non-frustrated step towards her to make her want to talk. show her that you want to talk to HER as a person and try to understand what is going on inside her. try to keep your frustration under control and really listen to what she says. and try to understand why she thinks you are controlling (some things WILL be valid and others overreacted, be open!) and then tell her your feelings (why do you still love HER? is there anything special about her that you love? what do you miss? why sex with HER is important (please dont say to meet your needs: that you can do with a mistress)). what does she really want from you (it is not to shut up, that is just miscommunication)? it sounds to me that she wants you to be supportive: you are not supposed to be mr nice guy (often people think there are only two options: mr nice guy or aggressive dominator, both are not helpful for a healthy, equal relationship, obviously). she might want a friend and partner that likes HER and wants to know HER. 
this can only work if you still want her even if she changes in a more individual/independent person. dig deep. what to you look for in a partner? do you want her? or just the way it was before? or just no stress/complications? you guys need to find out if you married for life or for a period where you 'just' clicked together. 
This is obviously just my thoughts on your post. she is the only one that can really tell you what is going on.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

I agree that what the previous poster has said is a possibility. Sometimes it happens. She could be trying to establish her indendant self. The old self, you could be all over her, not that it's anything wrong with it at all if that's what you guys were doing.

But she's doing something else now.

But then again she could be cheating, and when you touch and approach her it makes her feel like she is cheating on the OM, and she doesn't want to do this.

Instead of guesstimating. Why not sit down and have a meeting about it over two drinks. Ask her what she's doing and let her know that it hurts you that you cannot touch her anymore and you are sleeping in two different rooms. What is the reason for it? Ontop of it your not having sex anymore and it's been years of consistent sex, so like that would definitely get your attention.

Ask her what it is, give her a chance to respond without pressure.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> I tried. Every time I try to bring it up, she says its not a good time. And I respond "it's never a good time." * I asked "do you love me" and she says of course I do". But then "are you in love with me?". Answer "I don't know". To me, that's a no. *
> 
> We may be too far gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So sad to see this... maybe your right... maybe it's time to have the 'Divorce' talk. I rarely think this  I'm not pro-divorce at all but those words would break my heart I think.

Tell her how YOU feel and how dreadfully unhappy and lonely you are. I find it impossible to believe she is happy going by the description of her behavior.... not happy at all... ask her if she is.

This is so not what marriage is about... 

You two should be each others best supporters and home should be a welcoming and soft place to fall at the end of the day... your home life and marriage sounds anything but.

You have nothing to lose really...do you? If you rock the boat and MAKE her discuss this and she gets mad...so what?... nothing is more important than your marriage? Or is it?

Get out your diaries and book yourselves a time slot..

PS: take a big chill pill before you talk to her. Men shouting and getting angry can freak a lot of women out. Please try really hard to speak calmly and quietly, it will make everything easier. She has after all made special mention of your anger in her 'needs' talk.


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## Sunny Days (Jan 26, 2013)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> My story is similar to many here. Wife (44) and I (45) married almost 16 years. Have 2 kids, 8 and 6, and we both work full time, demanding jobs, her moreso than me. Throughout our relationship and marriage, sex was always great. Not going at it every day, but I'd say 6-8 times a month, even after the kids were born (First few weeks/months after kids being born the exception). Was a mix of passionate nights, some planned and some not, plus the occassional morning quickie that often turned into more than that.
> 
> When she did reject me, (which was often, because I'm a horn dog), it was always with a playful slap and a "maybe tonight" type of thing, nothing that ever bothered me because for the most part I was gettin enough. Our sex usually started with me making the first move, and her saying something like "I'm not in the mood but you can probably get me in the mood", followed by some seduction on my part, and then usually a bout of sex so good that we would actually high five and say "we need to do that more often!"
> 
> ...


I'm in the same situation but I am on the other side as the wife. About 3 years ago I shut down, got too overload by life pressures including the amount of sex my husband wanted I couldn't keep up and stopped wanting too. I was doing everything, feeling overworked and under appreciated. I had some major family issues going on and withdrew from sex not entirely but from experimenting and such. I wasn't in the mood emotionally and told him but he was also smoking a lot more weed then normal and didn't listen or know how I felt. He then started getting into excessive porn beyond who I thought he was and we have been together for 17 years. He turned into a man I didn't know anymore and I'm starting to be attracted to others now but not ready to do that. I've been trying to see past what happened but emotions and feeling disrespected are connected to vagina and if that's not right, sex won't be. I've been separated for 9 months and I think I've lost that fun into each other on the spot sex kind of love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

LanieB said:


> Dig deeper here, and I can almost guarantee you'll find the answers to your mysterious disappearing sex life.


Certainly seems worth digging deeper. 

OP, how long ago was this incident?

Are you computer/phone-savvy? IMHO, there is usually a lot more digging that can be done than most people, new to this sort of situation, are aware of.

Also, IMHO, having facts to think about is much more useful than worrying about possibilities. And, facts come from digging.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> She had been meeting regularly with a guy about work, and i found out She was texting him frequently as well. i found this out when I saw texts on her phone from a girlfriend of her giving her advice on how to act. Things like *"dont text him for a while, be mysterious, unavailable, play it cool" etc*. I never saw the texts to or from the guy, only the girl. Plus *she was checking out the guys wife on Facebook*. I think that passed because I know this guy very well and whatever interest she may have had I don't believe was reciprocated. She claims the interest was professionally only and that I misunderstood. I don't believe that. And it goes to show that she is attracted to these type of guys in her new career field rather than the type of guy I am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well, this is it.

Or at least, this is *enough to be it* on its own.

Enough to explain your situation.

If those are the texts you saw and you know she was looking at his wife's FBook...in NO WAY was her "interest professional"

Those texts from her friend in particular...those have "dopamine-rush", "school-girl" crush sort of feel written ALL OVER THEM

It doesn't matter if it actually became sexual...or was reciprocated...women can live 'sexually'/'romantically' in their heads far more than men 

And it makes her rudeness/coldness to you make sense...because you'd just be a big damper to her fantasy life
/fantasy future...that *'un-fun'* obstacle that hurts the other wise TOTALLY fun 'dopamine-rush'

That meeting 'my emotional needs' stuff is utter BS. And it annoys me when female posters try to give that credence...that is NOT a primary driver of female attraction

That is a convienient excuse though when one is feeling a loss of attraction

(I guess to be fair, she is no longer feeling emotionally 'excited' by you...and that has the same results)

But no amount of being her good little dog will do ANYTHING to improve this dynamic

In fact, if anything would have a chance, it'd be BEING TOTALLY INDIFFERENT to her (sexually too)

That is, if you want it to have a chance...

Personally, I'd really wish that you (and anyone in this circumstance) could find a way to NOT take 'loss of attraction' to *your type* personally and just say: Okay, BYE

The world has 9 billion people...there will be LOTS and LOTS of women who are ATTRACTED TO YOU

And who knows how long your wife will be attracted to new 'this type'?

And honestly, who cares?

All I know is...NO amount of trying to be her trained poodle will help this situation.

Seems like you know that too...

I am sorry though...this stuff just really SUCKS

Anyway, I guess my best advice is:

Stop jumping through her hoops RIGHT NOW.

Act indifferent to her *as a woman* as possible (and work on *really feeling that indifference towards her*) because this will result in one of two things:

1. YOU will suddenly have the POWER in the relationship again and she will again be attracted to you

2. You'll be steeling yourself for the day this marriage ultimately ends

And either way...you will no longer be compromising you self-respect

(Which is never a good thing for a father to do)

Again, I'm sorry

And best of luck!!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Everything was going great and then she moved up at work and everything started to change and go downhill fast.

She is seeing someone. That much is certain.

That much of a drastic sudden change clearly shouts someone else!!!

I'm sure you're checking her emails, facebook, texts, credit card bills, going through her things and even hire a private investigator.

If she was starved sexually in some areas, she should of communicated this to you and being a HD, you would of gladly done them with her and more.

Could she be spreading her wings and establishing herself in her new profession? To a small extent yes, but she should still be having sex with you and be affectionate, talking in detail about her advancement.

She probably gets mad when you press her because she is guilty of messing around and on the defensive.

More than likely, she is messing around, no question, too many obvious red flags.

On the bright side, many women out there who would love to have a guy like you. And when her affair runs its course, she may suddenly come back to you, close, lots of sex and say she was busy and needed space or some lies like that.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your responses and concern. I'll try to address a few things.

Because of her job, she is constantly texting and emailing. Checking her phone records wouldn't tell me anything. Chances are if she's having an EA it would be with someone that she texts and emails with on a professional level as well.

I asked her if there is someone else, and her response was not a denial, but rather "maybe YOU have someone else". 

PI? I've considered it. Then I thought - what would that change if I knew it were true or not true. If she's not into me any more, who cares what the reason is. I'd rather spend that money on myself and my kids.

I've been indifferent for a few months, and so has she. We just kind of pass each other in the house. She will give me a goodbye kiss in the morning, but only when the kids are there.

the other day I texted her (we very rarely speak on the phone) to see if she had time soon to discuss us. her answer was that it's a busy week and anyway, what could we talk about that hasn't already been discussed. I said we need to decide if we are staying together or not - I can't live the next 10-20-30 years not speaking to my wife and not having a real marriage, and if she's not in love with me anymore then I derserve to hear that. No response and barely a word has been spoken since.

That sound you hear is my heart breaking.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> PI? I've considered it. Then I thought - what would that change if I knew it were true or not true. If she's not into me any more, who cares what the reason is. I'd rather spend that money on myself and my kids.


Really?

It's pretty clear she's not into you anymore, at least right now.

Learning whether she is having an EA or PA or not seems like a helpful thing, if you want to figure out how to make it possible for her to be into you ever again.

So, either you are feigning disinterest to yourself, because you are struggling to cope with what you fear is going on, or you are more comfortable resigning yourself to be her doormat in front of your kids the rest of their childhood. Am I missing something? Why are you here?


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> the other day I texted her (we very rarely speak on the phone) to see if she had time soon to discuss us. her answer was that it's a busy week and anyway, what could we talk about that hasn't already been discussed. I said we need to decide if we are staying together or not - I can't live the next 10-20-30 years not speaking to my wife and not having a real marriage, and if she's not in love with me anymore then I derserve to hear that. * No response and barely a word has been spoken since.*
> 
> That sound you hear is my heart breaking.


Her response is nothing...there is nothing to discuss. Which means she's quite content keeping things the way they are....maybe until she gets a better offer. Right now she's doing what she wants and has a secure home to come to, so in her mind, why change anything? She's comfortable. 

You are not. Which means you do have an answer. Either continue the way things are, or begin to research ending the marriage. It's definitely heartbreaking and difficult and not the answer you want. Perhaps seeing you [pursuing divorce may wake her up. Or not. But if you are 100% sure you cannot live this way, then it's time to change you life on your own.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Being indecisive and putting the decision as to whether you stay together or not on her is one of the most unattractive things you can do. Be decisive and have her served. You may have a chance with her yet, but not acting the way you are now.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

File for divorce, give her the papers and wish her the best with her new man. See what she does........how she responds.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> I've been indifferent for a few months, and so has she. We just kind of pass each other in the house. She will give me a goodbye kiss in the morning, but only when the kids are there.
> 
> the other day I texted her (we very rarely speak on the phone) to see if she had time soon to discuss us. her answer was that it's a busy week and anyway, what could we talk about that hasn't already been discussed. I said we need to decide if we are staying together or not - I can't live the next 10-20-30 years not speaking to my wife and not having a real marriage, and if she's not in love with me anymore then I derserve to hear that. No response and barely a word has been spoken since.
> 
> That sound you hear is my heart breaking.


Sorry your so hurt by this... I really for you!

But good on you for telling her what you did... that you're fed up! She WILL be thinking about what you have said I can guarantee it... 
How much she cares??? That's the question really isn't it....

You now need to initiate a face to face discussion.... demand it. You have that right within your marriage. Remember...no shouting...the calmer the better.

If she refuses or gas lights or just talks BS...then you have your answer.... but do it face to face... texting is no way to be discussing your marriage and potential divorce.

I would be at least looking into a separation... what you describe above sounds like hell! No marriage should be like that. You must dread coming home....


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Drop back on your marriage talk, Go to the coping with infidelity section and learn how to catch a WW....Key loggers, VAR's, and GPS....She feels safe so it shouldn't take long to get the goods on her...

Sorry
the woodchuck


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks again for all of the concerned advice. There are so many different points of view on how to deal with this situation. Head spinning,


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