# Full Transparency & e-mail access



## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

Here is a question:

When the betraying spouse agrees to full transparency and allows the betrayed spouse access to the e-mails, quits facebook, allows full access to all text and phone logs, etc... for several months ...

and sees that there has been no communication with the OP, no trace of the affair resuming or having gone underground, etc...

Is it ok for the betrayed spouse to read all e-mails between the spouse and friends (who are supportive of the reconciliation effort and marriage) and between counsellors and use what was written there in arguments against the spouse?

What do you think?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Personally I think if a BS wants to maintain full access and transparency that they should only use those things for the purpose they were intended - to make the BS comfortable that the wayward has not gone off the reservation again. IMO to use things you've read against them in other times and places is unfair and will eventually lead to resentment. This is especially true for anything read between the WS and a counselor - if they get beat about the head for something said to a counselor they will likely not continue to be open with that counselor for fear of giving their spouse a new club with which to beat them.

Of course this is all highly subjective, if I had a WS (I am the wayward) who emailed their counselor that they had resumed contact with their AP - I might have a problem with that.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

It's one thing to view your wife's emails and such to monitor and affirm that the affair has ended or isn't rekindling (I'm one to say that a BS should check on those things until they "get bored", a sign that they are healing) it's another to snoop and misuse that info for a list of your grievances in the marriage. It's a fine line to be sure.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I agree with the others. Make sure she's not contacting the other man. Check to see who she is contacting. If she's emailing a different man, you can read some of those emails to see whether the content is inappropriate. But, you shouldn't just read every email she sends or receives.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Personally I'd respect my WW's privacy privileges with the C. As to her friends I know for a fact that she has confided more with them than with I and I know that some of them have helped enabled her A. I would demand the right to see the emails or any other communications between her friends so I can tell which ones were enemies to my marriage and which ones were supportive our my M. And those who were enemies I'd demand she cut from her life.

As I was writing this I was thinking, "no way I'd really do this?? Its way too rigid!" but actually, yeah, in my case I am realizing its the only way I'd be able to trust in her again and its what I think would be necessary to protect my M. Its also the reason why I am not holding out for R because as much as I'd still love to be able to, I honestly don't believe she would ever agree to drop those friends because right now they are her entire world.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

You need to decide what you want to monitor, and what you wanna let slide----she has cheated, and you have no trust---so it is natural for your peace of mind, to wanna know what is going on

When you took vows, the 2 of you became as one, so there really should NOT be an expectation of privacy---if she needed/wanted privacy she should have stayed single

Question to you is, how long do you intend to be a parole officer------either trust her, and check on her once in a while, or keep full vigilance----HAVE YOU GIVEN HER A CONSEQUENCE OF D. IF SHE IS CAUGHT CHEATING AGAIN??????


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

What about telling the wayward spouse that they cannot leave the house alone, and not without prior permission?

This would include the grocery store, taking the dog to the vet, running errands, exercising outside the house (running, swimming), meeting up with same-gender friends that are clearly supporting the reconciliation and marriage and do not condone the cheating that occured?

The way it seems right now, even asking or proposing to do anything outside the house without the spouse feels like an attempt to betray.

D-day was early April.

Is this acceptable or would this hamper the reconicilation by way of pushing the wayward spouse further away emotionally?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

keeping your spouse as a prisoner is not conducive to healing and will only breed contempt from them and make you crazy

I'm the first one to recognize that the power of the mariage shifts a bit so the one betrayed can feel in control and heal, but what you propose may make your spouse feel miserable and not even enjoy the things she has a right to enjoy since it has no bearing on the affair. I understand your trust is shattered but you need to start taking baby steps towards trusting again, especially if she is doing the things that are necessary for that to begin.

Perhaps a better alternative is for her to update you on where she is going if she will be out longer than a half hour and if it is longer than 2 hours to check in with you? Updating you on her whereabouts instead of "asking permission" is a better way to convey it to her and explain it is to assuage your fears not to control where she goes or wants to do.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

If you feel like you need that level of monitoring, then I suggest you do it covertly. Install spyware on her phone. You can read every text she sends and listen to every conversation she has. If her phone has GPS, you can even track her movements during the day. If not, you can put a GPS dongle in her car so that you can see exactly where she is at all times. You can also add a voice-activated recorder under her seat to record anything said in her car.

I think you're justified in wanted to keep tabs on her. But insisting she gets permission to go to the grocery store may build resentment in her.


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

Thank you all for your very engaged responses.

Just to let you know, I am in fact not a man faced with a wayward wife, but in fact a woman who committed the horrible, terrible, spineless sin of cheating on her husband (1 month EA/PA, with then lingering EA and 'fishing' 4 months later, totalling effectively into a 5 month affair - all kept completely secret the entire time from every other human being on this planet). I am now working through the repercussions, trying to do everything in my ability to providing a measure of healing where I wounded my husband so deeply.

The things I listed above is what my husband is expecting of me and I am truly struggling with it as I have had difficulty committing to it fully over the past 3 1/2 months (causing thereby the rules to become strickter). I am finding my heart hardening against my will towards my husband, as I completely stopped the 'A', did not break 'NC', despite still feeling a sense of lingering fog. And no - I will not break NC, as I now recognize how manipulative and spineless the OM was.

To make matters worse, once I confessed to my husband, he confessed to me many instances of one-night-stands and other inappropriate exchanges with women that had occured over the past 7 years. Since however his last instance of cheating was a little more in the past (by 3 months) and was only physical, not emotional, we've been dealing almost exclusively with the betrayal I committed. 
I had not really had a chance to express my pain towards him, feel heard, and explore what I think I would need in order to believe that things would be different in the future.

I know that God's heart is always for reconciliation, but man - this is a struggle if I ever saw one.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well I think the bigger problem is that he isn't doing what he can to help you heal for his transgressions and you can't save a marriage where both partners aren't willing to do what it takes. 

If he can't own up to what he has done then you need to make a stand despite the fact your footing isn't secure


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Dove, sounds like you both need to offer full transparency to each other, knowing he was also unfaithful its not a one-way street anymore. Question, was his ONS's and other PA's a retaliation for yours, or did he even know about your infidelity at the time?

Atleast at this point, negotiating the terms of reconciliation should be easier - whatever he asks of you, you can rightfully expect from him too. Have you both already decided that you each WANT to be in the marriage?


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

D-day came as a surprise for the both of us, so it was not an act of retalliation on either side, but obviously symptomatic of deeper underlying issues.

My husband wants R in the hope to renew our marriage vows in the future - pending on certain conditions being met, whereas I right now am still so hurt as not to be yet at a point where I consistently feel sure if I want to be in this marriage. Sometimes I only want to want, and sometimes it's as bad as wanting to want to want .... 

Basically, I feel unable and am unwilling to make any definitve decisions, but I also don't want to do anything that would hinder reconciliation.

I know I should commit more to reconciliation, but right now, I feel pressured (by my husband and by myself and supportive friends) to do so, but I have not healed sufficiently as to defeat the doubt and fear that the underlying causes for the horrible behaviour won't be addressed and that I will encounter additional D-days in the future.

However, as long as I don't feel sure, my husband refuses to go to MC. It's very much a chicken and an egg thing right now...


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander toooo

So what, that your H., cheating was further back---he actually cheated right up till the time he came clean, in that he lied, and covered up his cheating---so he was cheating by ommission

Do you have kids---if you have kids, you can take them with you, when you go out

But don't think that cuz your H., infidelity was only physical, it was any less than any other form of cheating

Cheating is cheating no matter how its done

The 2 of you both have no trust, so both of you need to work, on your trust issues, and if you need to go out on your own, just as he, your cheating H. does, ----- you go out---if he doesn't like it, too bad---- tell him he gets the same strait jacket as you do


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

No kids involved, ... feeling emotionally so exhausted and spent.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Dove - you both need to heal and do the things both of you need to rebuild trust and confidence. Once the actions show your faithfulness the restrictions will start to fall away. Have some patience - you both made mistakes. As far as him reading your email and using it against you - why is it you are saying things that you wouldn't say directly to haven't already said directly to his face? If you are saying things he doesn't know or feels are showing your unhappiness in the marriage - why doesn't he already know that? What is it he's using against you?


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

Basically, I am on an emotional rollercoaster dealing with the pain I dealt to him (I hurt for him), the pain of what I did to myself and our marriage by having cheated, plus the pain of finding out how often he cheated on me over the past 7 years, and on top of that the pain of the many things that had been dysfunctional in our marriage that led the both of us to make these horrible mistakes.

So, depending on what I am feeling, I express it differently. I keep trying to tell him that I don't know what I am feeling or thinking and would like some space at home, some time, to come to a mental and emotional place of 'rest'.

Since Monday I have asked H not to press any decisions from me, to cease the relationship-related conversations so that I can do a measure of healing, recovering, spending -some-time alone.

On Monday we pretty much talked non-stop from 5:30 pm (commuting home together) until 11 pm.

On Tuesday morning, I asked if it was ok to call my mom to wish her a happy birthday (she turned 60), while walking the dog. I asked because my talks with my mom are never short, I needed to walk the dog and get ready for work, and H had asked me not to make calls outside the house where he can't hear to whom I am talking. That turned into another 1.5h fight during which I had an anxiety attack and was late for work.

On Tuesday night we talked again until 12pm.

On Wednesday night I left the house for one hour to run an errand to two stores and then we talked again until 11 pm.

Yesterday, I finally seemed to have some time and space, but when he came to me to say 'good night' at 11pm, he just wanted to say/ask one thing briefly, which led to another long difficult conversation until midnight.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

It's going to be rough until it is all out in the open. It may help if the two of you start writing your questions and feelings down, giving them to each other and then each you havng a chance to think before responding. Your responses will be much better thought through and unemotional. Talking face to face is good, but it puts both of you on the spot and when one or the other can't answer a question, the other gets frustrated. You , at a minimum, need to stop the marathon sessions and quit when anger start or frustration starts rising and then come back to it. The two of you also need to set a day a week where there is no discussion. Just a day to be close and non-confrontational and take a break from the issues. He needs to understand it will take time for you to understand and sort through why certain things happened and that it is very painful for you to do it because it means facing the pain you caused him as well as the serious things you did wrong. I don't quite get why this is not going both ways if he screwed up too. He also needs to believe that giving you time to respond is not so you can make up lies, it so that you can give the right and clear answers by being given time to think. Just a thought.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I've suggested to a number of people to go to the beyondaffairs.com website. Click on the seminars tab and then look for the word telesemnars and click on it. There are number of the teleseminars that talk precisely about the things you two are having issues with. Listen to as many as you can.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

The two of you are on equal footing as far who owes who transparency so whatever you do for him or at his request he must do the same for you - period. Let me ask you this, do you think that had he not been cheating on you for the past seven years that maybe, just maybe, he would have been more committed to YOUR marriage and might have not have neglected your needs which led to your cheating?? That's not to say he's responsible for your cheating - you did it and you own it and you sound like you know that. BUT, issues in your marriage contributed and I guess what I wonder is if he had been fully into your marriage would those issues have been there?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Great Point Sigma


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

Sigma, 8years, .... Thank you so much for yor supportive input.

I have been doing a lot of praying. Basically begging God to step in because I reached the end of my abilities. 

Then, finally, H sends me a letter apologizing for everything he has done to me over the entire course of our marriage, the disrespect, the belittling, the negligence, betrayal, etc.... 
It didn't quite ring true to me, and that same day he spoke to me in the evening with the same attitude and tone as usual, including insults and accusations.
So I stayed distant and didn't give him the 'all grateful I forgive you' response.

But then, on Friday, I think his own heart clicked, and he spoke to me in a considerate, soft and gentle manner.
Also, he went to 'Celebrate Recovery', which deals with all sorts of issues from co-dependency, alcoholism, sex issues, axiety, etc... 
He committed to get his life and attitide right, whether I decide to stay with him or not (he already decided to stay married if I so choose). 

... he seems to be finally realizing the things I had been trying to communicate to him for over a decade... and he seems to be genuine in his dedication to change, already making changes.

But it has only been a few days sofar and I am totally scare to let my emotional guard down in case this won't last.

Amazingly, I have gotten as far as being able to share with him my fears and when I cry, he holds me and shows me underdstanding.

We still have a lot to discuss, especially since he also has fears about me going 'fishing', but right now, we are opening a new page and it's looking promising.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

FANTASTIC DOVE!!!! WOHOOOOOOO!!! I understand your reservations and you definitely need to see if the actions follow the words. That is the only way you can start to rebuild trust, confidence and a sense of safety and security. Hold tight to the hope but don't start throwing all the doors open until he shows a continued course of ACTION. Whatever you do, do not pile on a list of things you need like an air tight contract. It may reverse him. DO definitely come up with a top five you need to START to feel you can trust him to begin to R. It might help if you review them here first so we can give you some guidance. Don't be afraid of small shows of affection. Hugging, holding hands and cuddling - but nothing more till you see actions.

Congrats girl - I am soooo happy for you. You made the sun come up on my day!!!! Here's to a bright and positive future for you. I'm praying the attitude continues and he begins work immediately.


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