# unsure if i'm off my rocker or if she is the problem



## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

ok, this will be long so i will apologize in advance. if i'm going to get reasonable opinions, i feel like i have to put everything on the table. here goes.

my wife and i have been married for over ten years. we have four wonderful kids ranging from 8 to 4. the kids are all happy, well adjusted and well liked and intelligent. they all succeed in school and other arenas. all indications are that we are succeeding in our primary jobs as parents as i see it – to make successfully, appropriate and kinds young adults.
first, let me start with this: i am imperfect. i know that. i won't pretend that i am. i want to make myself better and make my children better than i am – more kind, more successful, more generous, better marriages. i get lazy, make mistakes – no doubt about it. but i also bust my rear to make up for those mistakes. point being, i acknowledge that i'm not the best at housekeeping, controlling my temper all the time (though i'm pretty good at it, i think), planning or scheduling.
when we first got together, i was finishing up college – a taxing five year program that didnt leave much time for anything beyond school work. i paid my way through school by working, so i ate like crap and was a little heavy (190 lbs, 5'10). nothing bad, just not what i wanted. after we were married, i got into running and did quite well. ran a few marathons, really found something that let me blow off steam. when the kids came along, it obviously got difficult to fit that in. so i cut way back and made adjustments. now i belong to 24 hr gym so i can run after everyone is asleep, sometimes finishing at 1 or 2 am. that is my choice and it only hurts my sleep. that being said, i get uptight now if i don't run for days at a time. i would think that i could somehow carve out an hour or two in every second or third day to run, especially if i'm willing to do it at midnight. i know this is silly and not the biggest problem. i tell you this because i want to own that i have my own issues. i get it. 

my problems are with my wife (little surprise, i'm sure). i just don't feel that she's holding up her end of the bargain in quite a few ways. as this continues, i feel myself becoming a worse person as well too. my anger and frustration toward her manifests itself not only toward her, but sometimes towards the kids as well. i do very well at remembering to avoid letting them feel the brunt of my frustration, but it would be a lie to say that it doesn't happen at all. no sense in kidding myself.
she used to have a successful career, but after our second child, we realized that the money she made barely covered the cost of day care for two children and we mutually decided that it was better for her to stay at home and raise our children the way we wanted. we thought (and still both do) that this is for the best for our kids.

the problems as from my perspective are:

1. cleaning/use of time
in exchange for her staying home full time, i would continue to work full time to support everyone. i would have stayed home and been a stay at home father, but we talked it through and we decided together that this was the route we would take. the theory was that she would take care of the house (cooking, laundry) and kids; i would work during the day, do the dishes and take care of the outside of the house. simple division of labor. this has long since gone by the wayside. while neither of us were much for housekeeping, when we had kids, we agreed that this had to change. 

at this point, all of our kids are in school and our house is still a complete wreck. i'm not exaggerating when i say that people don't come in our house. when my wife is gone (she works during the holidays one night a week and maybe a weekend day at a retail store) and i have the kids, i make massive strides alone. i get entire rooms cleaned, get loads of laundry done. but when she's at home, it seems that she gets next to nothing done. i understand that she picks up the kids after school. two days a week, she also teaches a fitness class for special needs kids which takes about 2 hours of her time at most.

i feel that it's a reasonable question to ask/wonder what she does with her time and important to the discussion. i'll admit to prejudice when answering this question. that being said, she goes to the grocery a lot, which seems to take extraordinary amounts of time when she does. the grocery is less than three miles away. a single trip can take four hours. she also has volunteered and is very active at the PTO for the kids school and is a room mother for at least one of our kids every year. that also takes up a lot of time during certain parts of the year when they have fundraisers or other things. i get that. 

but it's the other times where i see a massive void of getting anything done. she is a voracious reader and if i had to guess, i'd suggest that she read between 50-75 books last year. when we got to bed at night, she sits with her e reader and will sometimes read into the early morning because she can't put the book down. i'll come home from work and the kids are watching tv and she's sitting in the kitchen reading. if she asks to sleep in for an extra half hour on a saturday and i roll with it, that half hour turns into one or sometimes more and she isn't sleeping at all – she's reading. meanwhile, i'm manaaging the kids and trying to make up for time she didn't appear to use during the week. 

an honest example from this weekend: after our daughter had a recital on saturday morning, she went with her sister to look for baby clothes. they were gone from 10 am until after 5 that night. in that time, i did seven loads of laundry (wash, dry, fold and put away), all the dishes in the house and made the kids lunch. this is quite literally more than she did the entire week. 
and it's like this all the time. every day, there is an excuse. on saturday, she was too tired to do anything after shopping all day. sunday, we were definitive busy all day (i agree with this one). last night, she had a headache and couldn't work at all. i'm actually considering starting a log of excuse because im frankly incredulous.

our childrens rooms are atrocious. hangers all over the floor, clothes all over the place. you can't even walk through my older daughter's room and walk on the floor. you're walking on paper and clothes and any number of things. i've cleaned them all numbers and numbers of times, but only to have her come behind and let it get bad within a matter of weeks.

am i bitter? you bet. do i bust my ass in an attempt to show her that it can be done? you bet. she complains that she feels like i stand in judgement of her all the time and she's right. but i don't see how a person couldn't stand in judgement of someone when they constantly fail you. how else should that work?

ok, on with other issues beyond cleaning:

2. she is a screamer. her mother (who has passed away) was as well, to the point of abuse. no doubt, this is an environmentally inherited trait. this is also one that i'm not interested in passing on to our children. i want our children to be better people, better spouses, better in general than we are. but my wife loses it, sometimes over the smallest things. my oldest daughter and now the second are both turning into screamers and it breaks my heart – both to see my kids weather the battery of constant screaming and to see them turning into ones themselves. 

3. manipulation:
i watched my MIL manipulate her children when i first met them. it was devious and horrid and now i fear that my wife doing the same to us. sometimes it's benign, other times it's not. my memory isn't as sharp as i'd like, so a lot of times she'll rely on that to make her case on an issue, assuming that i won't remember. an example: we were having a discussion over something where she asked me a question which i answered completely and thought that the discussion was over and turned to my daughter to talk about a song that came on the radio. my wife blew up over this. i asked what was wrong and she said that i had interrupted her to move on to something else. in a rare instance of clarity, i told her exactly what her question had been, exactly what my response had been and then asked how precisely i had interrupted her. her response: 'your definition of interrupt is different than mine.' had i not asked the question, she would have gone on a rampage about how i had interrupted her knowing damn well that she was just crafting reality to her own best devices.

4. paring down of her duties, increase in mine:
remember when i said that the breakdown of duties was that she cooked and did laundry and i did the dishes? that's totally gone now. every night that she's cooking, she needs help somehow. that's ok, but if i'm helping out in her arenas, shouldn't she help out in mine? that seems fair. but i do 95% of the dishes (no, not an exaggeration and we don't have a dishwasher) and constantly have to pick up behind her after she cooks. spices, milk, various ingredients are all mine in addition to doing the dishes afterward. this is after i put the kids to bed (she doesn't like to brush their teeth because i do a better job?!). this usually means that while i'm putting them in pajamas, she is downstairs, usually cycling through channelsto see what she is going to watch. when the kids are finally in bed, she'll rush upstairs to give them a quick kiss on a commercial before zipping back downstairs before the commercial break is over. i'm left to put them into bed, make sure they stay there, get them water, retuck them in after they go to the bathroom and then, when they're done, go back downstairs and do dishes while she watches television or reads.
i'm probably doing half the laundry now, not just mine. i'm cleaning 90% of the house. to be perfectly honest, i have a hard time figuring out what she does during the day. i know from experience in business that things always take longer than you would think, looking at it from the outside. that being said, zero progress from month to month, year to year isn't getting anything solved. i'm carrying more of the load all the time and i fear that eventually i'll be carrying all of it.

5. lack of appreciation/respect for what i do:
when i say this, i mean that there is a general level of disrespect. if i get the living room clean, she will walk through and drop her coats on the coach three days in a row until i hang them up myself. it's like she can assume that i'll get tired of it and take care of it, so why bother? she could easily take ten minutes and do some dishes during the day, but that almost never happens. ever. but those ten minutes at least buys me that same amount that evening to do something else. 
she leaves her bathrobe soaking wet on our bed and, instead of walking the 10-15 step to hang it up, will pile it at the foot of our bed. this is an example, not the sole issue. there are many similar issues where she just doesn't do anything and assumes that it will get done, either by me or sometime in the nebulous future (when there is always a reason not to). i'll clean her car and, within a week, it's so bad that you can't sit in the passenger's seat without having your feet in a sea of juice boxes and trash. she knows that i'll eventually clean that up.

6. i don't even know how to describe this, but it seems like if she's doing something, she wants me to drop everything and do it. i was talking with my daughter the other day about school and she called me down to help her make dinner. she needed a fork from the drawer and afterward, needed nothing else but still wanted me to stay in case she needed me. this is common.

7. with regards to cleaning, when she decides that she wants to, it has to be on her own terms – room by room. this means that she first wants to deal with the living room which people would see first if they came over. so she wants to deep clean and purge. i agreed four months ago to do it her way and we still aren't there. how can it take four months to clean a single room? if while she is gone, i clean the kids rooms, she gets mad because i'm not cleaning her way, working on that singular room. she says it deflates and demotivates her to have me take a different route.

there is more, but these would seem to be the bulk of it. if we dealt with these issues, we'd have most of it licked, so i will stop here with my recitation of grievances. 

how does this affect me? i'm bitter. i'm constantly stressed. there is never enough time and i'm fighting an endless battle against forces that are supposed to be my ally but in reality i feel like is at best neutral in the fight and more likely than not, working against me. every time i walk home into a messy house, it's like someone punches me in the stomach. so i try to fight back the tide of mess again that night, just hoping to go to bed with the house somewhat better that night than it was the night before. i feel like if i can chip away, maybe eventually/slowly, i will get there. i have waning motiviation – why work toward something if you're never guaranteed to get there, no matter how hard you try? our room is an embarrassing wreck so romance is stifled to say the least. would you want to have amorous relations with the lights on if there were clothes piled all over every available surface and the floor was littered with papers and books? maybe i'm being petty? i'm actually at the point where i'm starting to wonder if the issue is me, but then i pull back and (try to) look at it objectively and i can't see that this is my issue (generally speaking). 

how does this affect my kids? i'm worried that they will grow up to live in completely dirty conditions, as screamers and manipulators. they live in an environment that is dirty and embarassing. what is shocking to others is become normal to them and that doesn't bode well for the future. how can you expect a child to grow up right if you can't provide them with the proper role modeling? 

i'll reiterate, i'm not perfect. i know it. i do judge her a lot. but i feel like that's an excuse to deflect the fact that she's failing a lot. if a person fails constantly, doesn't logic dictate they subject themselves to judgment by doing so? i can always do better and, despite my misgivings, i try every day. i don't feel like i can say the same for her.

help. please. i really have no idea what to do.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You have described quite well what goes on inside the house. Could you shed some light on how your wife's emotional state of mind is? 

Is she relatively stable emotionally? Did all this gradually happen? Does she have wild swings?

Start with the kids and demand they do not proliferate mess. Set up a reward or punishment system with a task board with age based tasks. If your wife gets in the way just ignore her.

Same with screaming. Start with the oldest kid and work one kid at a time. Offer nice rewards and dire consequences and stick with the program.

Also see of you can get your wife for a psych evaluation to rule out the heavy stuff like BPD and the like...


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

thank you for the response, john

_Is she relatively stable emotionally? Did all this gradually happen? Does she have wild swings?_

she's subject to wild mood swings and acknowledges that. it's an agreed on statement of fact.

_Start with the kids and demand they do not proliferate mess. Set up a reward or punishment system with a task board with age based tasks. If your wife gets in the way just ignore her.

Same with screaming. Start with the oldest kid and work one kid at a time. Offer nice rewards and dire consequences and stick with the program._

good fodder. i'll do all that.

_Also see of you can get your wife for a psych evaluation to rule out the heavy stuff like BPD and the like..._

i would have no idea on how to do that? and it may be in order... nothing a little internet research can't handle.

thanks again.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

A lot of your story sounds very very familiar to me. 

Number one thing is you have to shut down the screamer stuff. Hard. She'll be pissed when you first correct her in front of the kids, but she'll actually thank you for it later. mine did. You are correct it's a learned thing.

I know all about the bit about she has to go through things to purge, but never ever gets around to it. I just gathered up all the stuff and put it in a storage unit. That we she can go out and deal with it. She never has, but the house is clean. I just keep adding to the storage unit and wholesale trashing the stuff that's been there for years. She never misses any of it, even though I ship out tons of stuff she "needs to go through."

Basically, quit whining and take the bull by the horns with regard to the clutter. You'll have to put the kids in line on the rooms. Mine never did. Take the time to show them exactly how you want those rooms to look, then enforce it. Your wife will never change on this, but if you train your kids, it won't matter.

Once you clear out the crap piles, find a woman to come in and clean (dust, vacuum, mop, etc. not sort) one day a week.

Is your wife from a third world country?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

John 117 is correct on depression thing. Wellbutrin seems to keep her on an even keel.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The kids should be pitching in here, especially in their own rooms.

I remember once throwing out about 65% of my kids toys when they left them all over the house for too long. After warning them I would do so of course. They don't think you're serious the first time.

And they should definitely be cleaning their own rooms.

I also agree your wife should be evaluated for physical and emotional problems.

Can you afford a housekeeper? Maybe a portion of that expense could come out of your wife's shopping budget?


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

_A lot of your story sounds very very familiar to me._ 

i'm sorry to hear that, but pleased to see that you seem to have come out the other side. that's encouraging.

_Number one thing is you have to shut down the screamer stuff. Hard. She'll be pissed when you first correct her in front of the kids, but she'll actually thank you for it later. mine did. You are correct it's a learned thing._

i've been doing that, but without much success. as you mentioned, it isn't well received. can i ask how you got to the place where it normalized? was it just repeated intervention?

_I know all about the bit about she has to go through things to purge, but never ever gets around to it. I just gathered up all the stuff and put it in a storage unit. That we she can go out and deal with it. She never has, but the house is clean. I just keep adding to the storage unit and wholesale trashing the stuff that's been there for years. She never misses any of it, even though I ship out tons of stuff she "needs to go through."_

brilliant. did you do it all at once? and logistically, did she lose her mind when you did or did you just prep her with the idea that she could go through it there?

_Basically, quit whining and take the bull by the horns with regard to the clutter. You'll have to put the kids in line on the rooms. Mine never did. Take the time to show them exactly how you want those rooms to look, then enforce it. Your wife will never change on this, but if you train your kids, it won't matter._

fair enough. 

_Once you clear out the crap piles, find a woman to come in and clean (dust, vacuum, mop, etc. not sort) one day a week._

at that point, my wife might as well work full time...

_Is your wife from a third world country?_

i haven't laughed in weeks. i'm unsure if your comment was sincere, but it made me laugh regardless. in answer, no she isn't. i can see why you would ask though.

thank you. sincerely.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

_The kids should be pitching in here, especially in their own rooms._

agreed, but the rooms have to be in a place where a child can manage to keep up and my wife has to stop opening the door and dropping crap on any available flat surface. or, as suggested above, i have to chase behind her, which i'm willing to do for their sake.

_I remember once throwing out about 65% of my kids toys when they left them all over the house for too long. After warning them I would do so of course. They don't think you're serious the first time._

one idea she had was to donate a portion of the toys they don't play with anymore, but followthrough isn't her forte... again, something i will probably just have to do myself for their sakes.

one thing i'm realizing about myself is that i can do more (and should for their sakes) and in some sense, have been waiting to take action because i actually want her to follow through. that's unfair to the kids.

_And they should definitely be cleaning their own rooms.

I also agree your wife should be evaluated for physical and emotional problems.

Can you afford a housekeeper? Maybe a portion of that expense could come out of your wife's shopping budget?_

as a single earner household, no. but if she won't pitch in and goes back to work (i think that's fair, but not sure how to get there), we could...

thank you as well. getting this off my chest was a relief in itself; the advice is beyond description.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

As far as the screaming, what exactly have you tried?

I have never had to deal with a screamer, but my thought is that, when she screams at you, you calmly tell her you will not speak to her until she calms down, then walk away. Same with when the kids scream at you. When she screams at the kids in front of you, teach them to do the same thing to her (If they're old enough). 

Family therapy might be in order as well.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Where does she get the money to shop for hours at a time??

A housekeeper isn't that expensive, if you can find one that just does a couple of hours a week.

As for your kids rooms, clean them up once and for all and then that's it. If your wife is throwing THEIR crap into their rooms on the floor, there's nothing wrong with that. The kid should be dealing with it. If your wife is throwing OTHER PEOPLES crap into the kids rooms, that's another problem.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

_As far as the screaming, what exactly have you tried?_

initially, i would approach her during the episode and say that it was out of hand. then she asked that i not undermine her in front of the kids and instead bring it up afterwards privately. i honored that request, but it didn't seem to encourage cessation at all. now, i generally will calmly interrupt to say her name or 'dear...' hoping that she will hear and stop in the moment. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

she has said that sometimes, she hears herself and knows that she's out of control, but can't stop. i'm not sure i buy that, but at least she's admitting there is an issue. 

_I have never had to deal with a screamer, but my thought is that, when she screams at you, you calmly tell her you will not speak to her until she calms down, then walk away. Same with when the kids scream at you. When she screams at the kids in front of you, teach them to do the same thing to her (If they're old enough). _

interesting. i would guess that it would drive her over the edge, esp with the kids. i'll have to think on this because i like the idea b/c you don't engage in the conflict...

_Family therapy might be in order as well._

it may be. but again, as a single income family, that's tough if not impossible.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

_Where does she get the money to shop for hours at a time??_

i think she drags it out so she doesn't have to come home and do the other things that need to be done. she goes to a local market for fresh fruit and veggies which takes 2-3 hours each weekend and each trip to the grocery is 2-3 hours. i think she can be more efficient (i know i can when i do it), but she doesn't want to.

_A housekeeper isn't that expensive, if you can find one that just does a couple of hours a week._

i'll look into it. but i'll have to get the house to a point that their services could be viably used...

_As for your kids rooms, clean them up once and for all and then that's it. If your wife is throwing THEIR crap into their rooms on the floor, there's nothing wrong with that. The kid should be dealing with it. If your wife is throwing OTHER PEOPLES crap into the kids rooms, that's another problem._

in theory, yes. but i'll give you an example. we keep each season's cycle of clothes in plastic bins in the basement until it's time to swap them out for the upcoming season. so she will partially unload a bin, get too busy and leave it in their room for months or longer. last time i cleaned out our 10 y.o. daugther's room, i found a bin of clothes that were size 5 and 6 that had successive piles placed atop them. it's like one layer on top of another on top of another. and while it's theirs, my kids are too short to reach their hangers. that's the majority of the mess in their rooms, but there are hangers on the floors that get carelessly dropped, other various wrappers etc that she (wife) doesn't bother to take to the trash...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You haven't seen mess till you see a kitchen with flour poured on the floor and not cleaned for months.

Throw away or put stuff to storage. This cuts the clutter significantly.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Put up a lower rod in your kids closets so they CAN reach. Then take ALL their clothes out for THEM to go through. Give them a bin for stuff that's too small or they don't like, to be donated to a womens shelter. Do this with them if you like. Take them with you to the womens shelter too. Once everything - from every season - has been gone through, see how much is left and if you even need to store anything away for other seasons. If you do, then store them in the kids rooms - under their beds or something.

A 10 year old is old enough to take care of all their own clothes, INCLUDING doing their own laundry. Take the time to write out instructions for the washer and dryer, including how to sort clothes, go through it once with them, then they're on their own, except for asking questions if they really need to. Go shopping with them for their own laundry baskets and hampers - get them to own it.

I got my son this laundry hamper for Christmas










You can get baskets in funky colors - my daughters is pink. Make it fun for them.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Stop paying the bills until she starts pulling her end of the bargain.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

wilderness said:


> Stop paying the bills until she starts pulling her end of the bargain.


So the whole family can go without power, or Internet, or whatever until she gets her act together?

Good luck with that solution...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

PBear said:


> So the whole family can go without power, or Internet, or whatever until she gets her act together?
> 
> Good luck with that solution...
> 
> ...


I would start with the discretionary stuff. Stop paying wife's cel phone if she has one (or cancel it). If that doesn't work, cancel the internet so wife can't surf with tablet…etc etc...


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

I don't think treating her like a child would be an effective solution (even if you believe she is behaving immaturely).

Have you talked seriously about her going back to work? How old is the youngest child? 

You said you did all that work on a saturday and it was more than she did during the week - really? She must make lunches for all 4 kids each day, that alone would be a lot of effort. It also sounds like she cooks dinner most nights. If she wants you to hang out in the kitchen in case she needs "help" maybe she just wants to talk to an adult while she cooks. I find cooking really boring and like that time to talk to my SO.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If your kids are in school and she is a stay at home mom, well she is not pulling her weight.

Probably once eveyone is out of the house she reads, watches TV, goes on to Facebook, masturbates, chats with friends.

What can you do except let dam resentment fill to the top? Eventually you won't love her and you'll divorce.

Book MC. Make negotiation of a new regime the topic. If she has complaints about you, you're all ears.

Make sure you work out.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

I can't read all the answers. Most seem like treating the symptoms not the disease. 

Tell your wife your needs. I need you to not be a slob. I need you to keep your side of the division of labor. Then STFU. don't reason or explain or worse let her try to hamster wheel rationalize it away why she can't. 

Make time for your self. Go running when you want to and tell her "I'm going for a run" and let her deal with that. Don't ask her. 

Go read "no more mr nice guy. " Maybe this is you? I don't know. 

By leading by example your engaging in a covert contract. Your hoping to elicit an outcome that she doesn't know you want. 

Lead your wife. Be the best self you can be, honest and truthful with her and if she follows then great. Otherwise she's replaceable.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

PBear said:


> So the whole family can go without power, or Internet, or whatever until she gets her act together?
> 
> Good luck with that solution...
> 
> ...


yeah. that wasn't exactly viable.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

greenfern said:


> I don't think treating her like a child would be an effective solution (even if you believe she is behaving immaturely).
> 
> Have you talked seriously about her going back to work? How old is the youngest child?
> 
> You said you did all that work on a saturday and it was more than she did during the week - really? She must make lunches for all 4 kids each day, that alone would be a lot of effort. It also sounds like she cooks dinner most nights. If she wants you to hang out in the kitchen in case she needs "help" maybe she just wants to talk to an adult while she cooks. I find cooking really boring and like that time to talk to my SO.


i've broached the subject of her going back to work. she was noncommittal. 

yes, really. i'm the one who makes the lunches in the mornings while she lays out the kids clothes, so our time commitment in the morning is equivalent. 

i'd say she cooks dinner four or five nights a week. that is an effort and i recognize that. but that takes an hour a night at most. i'm working a full time job and then working at home to manage what doesn't get done while i'm gone. it's not even close to quid pro quo. at least it doesn't feel that way.

but in a lot of ways, it seems like outside of that and grocery shopping, she isn't contributing a lot. , to be completely honest.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> If your kids are in school and she is a stay at home mom, well she is not pulling her weight.
> 
> Probably once eveyone is out of the house she reads, watches TV, goes on to Facebook, masturbates, chats with friends.
> 
> ...


thanks. i can't disagree with anything you said.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> I can't read all the answers. Most seem like treating the symptoms not the disease.
> 
> Tell your wife your needs. I need you to not be a slob. I need you to keep your side of the division of labor. Then STFU. don't reason or explain or worse let her try to hamster wheel rationalize it away why she can't.
> 
> ...


i'll go find the book tonight. thank you for the other suggestions.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

tryingtodoitright said:


> i've broached the subject of her going back to work. she was noncommittal.
> 
> yes, really. i'm the one who makes the lunches in the mornings while she lays out the kids clothes, so our time commitment in the morning is equivalent.
> 
> ...


Wow, really?? You make lunches in the morning? Yikes. Agree with the person who recommended the nice guy book. 

So all 4 kids are in school? I would seriously discuss her returning to work. Maybe she is depressed now that she doesn't have kids at home & has trouble filling her day with the chores.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> As far as the screaming, what exactly have you tried?
> 
> I have never had to deal with a screamer, but my thought is that, when she screams at you, you calmly tell her you will not speak to her until she calms down, then walk away. Same with when the kids scream at you. *When she screams at the kids in front of you, teach them to do the same thing to her* (If they're old enough).
> 
> Family therapy might be in order as well.


No, you really don't want to do that. They learned from mama, and you want to stop that with this generation, not perpetuate it.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

tryingtodoitright said:


> _Number one thing is you have to shut down the screamer stuff. Hard. She'll be pissed when you first correct her in front of the kids, but she'll actually thank you for it later. mine did. You are correct it's a learned thing._
> 
> i've been doing that, but without much success. as you mentioned, it isn't well received. can i ask how you got to the place where it normalized? was it just repeated intervention?


Just get her attention (humph) and gently remind her that she's made her point. I even told mine, in front of the kids, "the kids don't deserve this, you're the adult." You might try that line in private first, but that really toned her down. She'll try to justify and rationalize, but then you say, "did you like it when your mother went off her rocker like that?" Turn it back on her and her experience as a little kid being on the receiving end of that. My wife almost completely stopped it eventually, but she would revert back to a fit every six or eight months. Twice a year is much better than five times a day, believe me. When the youngest got to high school it stopped completely.



tryingtodoitright said:


> _I know all about the bit about she has to go through things to purge, but never ever gets around to it. I just gathered up all the stuff and put it in a storage unit. That we she can go out and deal with it. She never has, but the house is clean. I just keep adding to the storage unit and wholesale trashing the stuff that's been there for years. She never misses any of it, even though I ship out tons of stuff she "needs to go through."_
> 
> 
> brilliant. did you do it all at once? and logistically, did she lose her mind when you did or did you just prep her with the idea that she could go through it there?


She went out of town and I boxed and bagged it and took it to storage. When she got back she acted like it was a miracle (since I had been respecting her intent to sort). I told her she could now sort it at her leisure without worrying about how the house looked. She was all "thank you, thank you, thank you." Once it got too bad to have company over again, I did again. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. 

Keep a walkway in the storage space so you can turnover the inventory. FIFO.



tryingtodoitright said:


> _Basically, quit whining and take the bull by the horns with regard to the clutter. You'll have to put the kids in line on the rooms. Mine never did. Take the time to show them exactly how you want those rooms to look, then enforce it. Your wife will never change on this, but if you train your kids, it won't matter._
> 
> fair enough.





tryingtodoitright said:


> _Once you clear out the crap piles, find a woman to come in and clean (dust, vacuum, mop, etc. not sort) one day a week._
> 
> at that point, my wife might as well work full time...


When all of them are in school. It's worth it for them to be with their mother until then.




tryingtodoitright said:


> _Is your wife from a third world country?_
> 
> i haven't laughed in weeks. i'm unsure if your comment was sincere, but it made me laugh regardless. in answer, no she isn't. i can see why you would ask though.
> 
> thank you. sincerely.


Yeah, the screaming at out of control kids and hoarding are traits I associate with El Mundo Hispanico. Wonder why that is...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> No, you really don't want to do that. They learned from mama, and you want to stop that with this generation, not perpetuate it.


That isn't what I meant. I meant he should teach them to do the same to her as he does, namely walk away.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your wife wanted your assistance to get a spoon out of the drawer?

You didn't sign on to be her gofer. She's a big girl - she can do these things herself. It sounds like she really needs a supervisor as she obviously can't manage her own tasks. Maybe being a homemaker just isn't her forte? If not, she can get a job outside of the home.

But, stop doing all the damn work! Do your own laundry and let her do all the rest. The first time she has to put on a dirty pair of panties, she'll find the laundry room.


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

You are a doormat. Cease all housework, inside and out, and use the same excuses she uses when she asks why. Take up golf so you can be gone four to five hours on weekends. Sometimes a taste of their own medicine is what they need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The other more drastic solution is to pull a 180. Read about it. If that gets her to try harder in her duties, praise her quietly with just a few words and some physicial affection.

Make her work to impress you. You've been doing it a long time with zero results.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Regarding the housekeeping, there's an app I found a couple years ago called Motivated Moms. What I like about is that it pares down the chores for day down to about 12 a day and they keep it really simple so you don't get overwhelmed.

They also have a website where you can purchase and download a PDF and print out if you don't want to use an app.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Through this whole thread, only one person has recommended marriage counseling as far as I can see. 

That should be the very first answer. You two are not speaking the same language at all. Your situation is a textbook example of a couple that would benefit from marriage counseling.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm going to approach this from a little different perspective, because I bet my ex hb would've written a lot of what you're writing.
One of the issues when someone stays home is that there can be a power shift toward the working spouse, so that you're no longer true equals and the stay at home must now answer to the working spouse. It's clear that's happened here; you have decided that she should be adhering to your standards since you're making the money. You might be right in that she's a pig, and you certainly are within your rights to ask for a reasonably clean house, but it's become a power imbalance that's contributed to a parent child dynamic. You now have a power struggle where you are the nagging, judgemental parent and she's going to show you; you said yourself that it's your job to push her to improve. Why? She's her own adult, and it's not really your place to improve her. Her putting a robe at the base of the stairs instead of walking up the stairs has nothing to do with her being lazy, it's a way of sticking it to daddy.
Now that doesn't mean you can't have some expectations,but not because you're making money and she isn't; it's because you're her husband and you live in the same house. That's reason enough, but you two must sit down and hash this out together. It would probably be a good idea to sit with a counselor to discuss how to communicate here. I suspect she's not really that happy as a sahm, and even if she were to try harder she might never be a domestic goddess and that's ok. When I stayed at home I hated it, and my hb also judged every little thing I did and nothing was good enough so or course it degenerated into a power struggle. I'm now remarried and work full time and am much happier; ironically because I'm much happier I also clean a lot more, but I'm never going to be that great at it. Maybe your wife just isn't really a domestic type, but there's unhappiness on her part to; she's looking for ways to avoid coming home to face you. This is a terrible dynamic for the marriage and if you keep this up you're going to drift farther apart. I guess how you approach this depends on what you ultimately want; if you want a divorce by all means keep doing what you're doing and you will get there. If you want to stay married you need third party help. Now. You might be surprised at what you learn about your wife if you can get her talking in a safe place.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Your living with an emotional bully and you are her victim. The only way to deal with a bully is to confront them directly and follow through with action. It's not OK to scream even if you are a 90lb female. Your children are damaged everytime this occurs and will repeat this behavior in their own families if you don't deal with it now. Call her on her s**t and take some action. This is called being a man.

Based on your post it occurs to me that she doesn't really like being a parent or possibly being married to you as it appears she prefers to be outside the house doing other things. She knows that you will fill the void at home and can guilt you into believing your a horrible man if you don't contribute more to the household. You have to stop buying into this manipulation and stop enabling her behavior by picking up the broken pieces. Stop arguing with her entirely. Refuse to do her housework as others have already stated. Make sure the kids don't go hungry or are not in danger but let if all friken go for a while and spend some man time away. She needs a wake up call and you need to figure out if she's using you as a sperm donor and maid.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Theseus said:


> Through this whole thread, only one person has recommended marriage counseling as far as I can see.
> 
> That should be the very first answer. You two are not speaking the same language at all. Your situation is a textbook example of a couple that would benefit from marriage counseling.


That's because MC is a waste of time and money. Most MC's are nothing but a shallow brochure. Many are worse. He needs to man up first and see where he really stands.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Enginerd said:


> That's because MC is a waste of time and money. Most MC's are nothing but a shallow brochure. Many are worse. He needs to man up first and see where he really stands.


While that is true of some MCs, it is not true of all. It's better to always start with the less drastic option before raising the stakes. 

Anyway, even with a "shallow brochure" of a MC, the more important thing is get the couple communicating to each other (without yelling). Even an incompetent MC should be able to get that going at least.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

This'll be the shortest answer I've written on TAM:

She's overwhelmed and out of her depth at the moment and as a result, isn't capable of managing a household, let alone one with 5 other people in it.

She needs individual counselling in order to get past this.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

I got to this point at stopped cold:

'your definition of interrupt is different than mine.'

A g/f I had from a broken messed up family had a mother who was just so.

She wasn't trying to be right, she wasn't happy in herself, this wasn't about feelings or ... I dunno how to explain it

This is sadist thinking. 

Unless you're 'not a nice guy' you can't win against someone who is just looking for trouble. 

Yeah, that whole 'changing the definition of black and white' brought back memories. You know I actually miss those times now, isn't that crazy? Wanting to go back and hang out with a dysfunctional family.

You're not off your rocker, from what I'm reading. Mind you, that's as far as I got.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm going to approach this from a little different perspective, because I bet my ex hb would've written a lot of what you're writing.
> One of the issues when someone stays home is that there can be a power shift toward the working spouse, so that you're no longer true equals and the stay at home must now answer to the working spouse. It's clear that's happened here; you have decided that she should be adhering to your standards since you're making the money. You might be right in that she's a pig, and you certainly are within your rights to ask for a reasonably clean house, but it's become a power imbalance that's contributed to a parent child dynamic. You now have a power struggle where you are the nagging, judgemental parent and she's going to show you; you said yourself that it's your job to push her to improve. Why? She's her own adult, and it's not really your place to improve her. Her putting a robe at the base of the stairs instead of walking up the stairs has nothing to do with her being lazy, it's a way of sticking it to daddy.
> Now that doesn't mean you can't have some expectations,but not because you're making money and she isn't; it's because you're her husband and you live in the same house. That's reason enough, but you two must sit down and hash this out together. It would probably be a good idea to sit with a counselor to discuss how to communicate here. I suspect she's not really that happy as a sahm, and even if she were to try harder she might never be a domestic goddess and that's ok. When I stayed at home I hated it, and my hb also judged every little thing I did and nothing was good enough so or course it degenerated into a power struggle. I'm now remarried and work full time and am much happier; ironically because I'm much happier I also clean a lot more, but I'm never going to be that great at it. Maybe your wife just isn't really a domestic type, but there's unhappiness on her part to; she's looking for ways to avoid coming home to face you. This is a terrible dynamic for the marriage and if you keep this up you're going to drift farther apart. I guess how you approach this depends on what you ultimately want; if you want a divorce by all means keep doing what you're doing and you will get there. If you want to stay married you need third party help. Now. You might be surprised at what you learn about your wife if you can get her talking in a safe place.


MC will be a start.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

thanks to everyone. i got a lot of feedback from different perspectives (not all like my own) and that's what i was hoping for. thank you sincerely.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Theseus said:


> While that is true of some MCs, it is not true of all. It's better to always start with the less drastic option before raising the stakes.
> 
> Anyway, even with a "shallow brochure" of a MC, the more important thing is get the couple communicating to each other (without yelling). Even an incompetent MC should be able to get that going at least.


I'll have to respectly disagree. An incompetent MC can do a tremendous amout of damage in just a few sessions. Traditional MC is now condisered crap by industry experts and those who look at the actual success rates. I agree that every marriage should include calm constructive communication but I also believe the spouses must respect each other before that can actually take place. This mans wife does not respect him and MC is not going to make that happen. Only a consistent change in his actions and responses to her screaming and manipulating are going to level the playing field so a decent conversation can occur. I believe the only purpose MC serves in the majority of cases is help the two parties deal with the trauma of transitioning to another way of life.


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