# The Anxiety Epidemic



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Here are some stats from the government about anxiety on the rise, especially in young people. 








Trends in anxiety among adults in the United States, 2008–2018: Rapid increases among young adults


In a time of global uncertainty, understanding the psychological health of the American public is imperative. There are no current data on anxiety trends among adults in the United States (US) over time. This study aimed to investigate prevalence of anxiety ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





I think anyone paying attention would have noticed it without the stats. Being on forums such as this for the last decade, I have been shocked at the number of young people with anxiety, and they are mostly not willing to deal with or push through. 

I have my theories that a lot of it has to do with the isolating internet activities and not getting the necessary socialization, but I think there are other components, such as both parents and schools enabling it too much, letting kids off the hook to do things they don't want to do. 

I'm 68, so I have seen a lot of trends in my lifetime. I can tell you, though, that sure, we had our shyer quieter kids in school when I grew up, but they were never allowed to skip activities (like gym) and were simply for the most part expected to perform their duties and no one was off the hook for getting a job when finished with school like you see today. 

Does anyone else have any thoughts why the last couple of generations are living with anxiety?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

We have been watching a programme about the Dam busters and the RAF 617 squadron who trained and took part in this highly risky, complex and dangerous mission to bomb a dam in Germany at night from very low flying heights which the Lancaster wasnt designed to do. The man who they appointed to organise and choose and train these men was 25. Many of the men chosen were much younger. Many fighter pilots in the war were in their late teens. Men of that age today would be mainly totally incapable of doing anything near what these brave young men did. 
Even when I was young, we just got on with things. I was married at 19, worked full time from 18, bought my first home at 20 and has my first child at 21. Many kids today would be swanning round the world on gap years, dossing about at their mum and dads house, going partying, drinking, sleeping around, smoking weed, playing on video games etc etc etc. Yes some study, some work hard, but so many dont. They seem to stay as perpetual teenagers, with little sense of responsibility, staying power or courage. 

It seems to be the thing these days for young people to have some form of anxiety or 'mental illness', yet so many have things so much easier than in past generations, maybe that is the problem, they have it too easy. .


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

For the first time in their lives, they're being told no

They bought in to the lie that government will care for them cradle to grave, and now see dems don't really mean it.

They don't take enough comfort in the fact that Pelosi will make pot federally legal and outlaw people keeping tigers as pets.

Or?


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

I wouldn't be surprised if anxiety is worse in school kids today, but your article states "This study aimed to investigate prevalence of anxiety among US adults from 2008 to 2018." It mentions economic uncertainty as a potential cause.

I believe substituting online relationships for traditional friendships has caused some problems, maybe this one. I think you are saying similar or same, but am cautious about speaking for you.

Since the study covers since 2008, I am not sure the "e-friends" phenomenon has gotten worse during that time.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Their parents and school don't expect enough of them. You know, only one of my parents graduated high school. Neither ever helped with homework or rode me about it or about grades, but like everything else, it was expected that I would do my best. It just would have been totally unacceptable if I had not. Inaction was not a 'thing.' 

I do believe anxiety is real, but I believe a lot of it can be prevented and overcome. I mean, just being at home so much during the pandemic, it's making me more uncomfortable to do things like talk to doctors or anything off my comfy schedule. Everything seems like a big deal. I'm well past being able to plan a weekend getaway.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

SpinyNorman said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if anxiety is worse in school kids today, but your article states "This study aimed to investigate prevalence of anxiety among US adults from 2008 to 2018." It mentions economic uncertainty as a potential cause.
> 
> I believe substituting online relationships for traditional friendships has caused some problems, maybe this one. I think you are saying similar or same, but am cautious about speaking for you.
> 
> Since the study covers since 2008, I am not sure the "e-friends" phenomenon has gotten worse during that time.


Yep. How many e-friends will come pick you up when your car breaks down?


----------



## Lloyd Dobler (Apr 24, 2014)

This is anecdotal, but my wife teaches at a university in the US (and has been for the last 10 years) and she's always telling me that her students are becoming more anxious at a faster rate. This is borne out with the Americans with Disabilitie Act accommodations that she and her colleagues need to make for these students. It used to be rare but now those accommodations are commonplace at her school.

Why is this happening more and more? I'm not sure, but it's a great question. My personal opinion is that it has a lot to do with the way some kids are raised by their parents. What I mean by this is that some parents don't allow their children to fail at anything because these parents see it as their role in life to always be the knight in shining armor for their kids. Helicopter parenting.

I've got another anecdote a friend told me about a friend of his who hired a recent college grad in the US and after a subpar yearly review, this recent college graduate's MOTHER called the hiring friend to complain on behalf of her kid about the poor review. How is that college graduate ever going to be able to grow up enough to if his parents keep treating him like that? And what kind of self respecting college grad would allow their parents to even do something like that?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

You know, I can almost pinpoint when the trouble started, and it started when a law passed that made it illegal for schools to punish children without parent's permission. What this did was start a flood of threats from parents and a lot of pressure to just pass the kids regardless of their grades or behavior. School was the great equalizer. If a kid had a crap parent at home, school taught the neglected child manners and better behavior, not to mention fed them a balanced meal (in those days). You learned a lot despite what your parents were like. That went away when the law forced schools to hand the reins back to the parents, the worst of whom simply took advantage of it to insist their kid get passed and not be taught anything. 

That was sometime in the 1970s. Then that evolved into micromanaging parents, schools demanding parents be involved in literally everything at school, where before parents were rarely at anything except if they wanted to attend a game or the rare PTA meeting. Getting parents involved degraded the mission of the schools because they sunk to the lowest common denominator. No kid could fail. No kid should be expected to compete or do anything uncomfortable. No kid was really responsible for their own grades. 

Instead of punishing or expelling bullies, the one being bullied was treated the same as the bully, because if not, the bully's parents would threaten to sue. 


Of course, good parents did their best to counteract this at home, but the example was set and the bar was lowered. Expect nothing of kids and nothing is what you'll get.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think a lot of this does have to do with an overall lack of emotional resilience. As a society, we largely no longer teach children how to deal with adversity of any type. Everyone wins, no one is excluded, help is always available and helicopter parenting ensures that potential obstacles are always eliminated. The majority of children simply aren't ever allowed to fail, or even to struggle. Those that do struggle despite the standard safeguards, are diagnosed with something so as to make that struggle an external force to be medicated and/or accommodated away. Which makes them all feel like winners, while simultaneously depriving them of the lessons to be learned from losing. 

An emotional makeup formed by an entire childhood of easy wins is both narcissistic and also terribly fragile when faced with real-world struggles and adversity.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Does anyone else have any thoughts why the last couple of generations are living with anxiety?


Actually, I do.

We have a lot of thinkers who spend time on idealizing better ways for people to be and to act. A central theme to these revolutions is to expand ways for individuals to be themselves. For a lot of these thinkers, these ideals are a way for them to express themselves how they'd like to express themselves, so in this way the revolution is a kind of selfish act, it's designed to further an agenda which benefits them personally.

The problem with this is that there are a whole lot of people who either like or need structure in their lives and when that structure is removed, they flounder and stress themselves out. Before our Gig Economy, there used to be more full-time jobs, then going back further, there used to be employee longevity at companies instead of the practice of keeping your resume continually updated and constantly looking for the next better job, and before that was the era of "The Company Man" - getting hired at IBM or General Motors at 22 and retiring at 65 with a gold watch. For some people that was stifling, but for many others it was reassuring, and those lowered anxiety.

In relationships it was also kind of similar - date someone, go steady, get pinned, get engaged, get married, all before 22. Then have a baby. There were roles people slotted into. That was the expectation, the social norms reinforced those expectations. You didn't have to go out and "find yourself" instead your path was pretty clearly marked for you.

I could go into finances and debt for young people, but that's obvious territory, it's this structure angle that I think is a big player in the anxiety explosion, the world is just a less certain place now, there is less you can count on, you're a complete free agent and if you screw up then you're all alone.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A reminder to keep this politics lite, OK? Thanks.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Maybe kiddies are afraid they'll have to repay their student loans. 

Being facetious here.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Rowan said:


> I think a lot of this does have to do with an overall lack of emotional resilience. As a society, we largely no longer teach children how to deal with adversity of any type. Everyone wins, no one is excluded, help is always available and helicopter parenting ensures that potential obstacles are always eliminated. The majority of children simply aren't ever allowed to fail, or even to struggle. Those that do struggle despite the standard safeguards, are diagnosed with something so as to make that struggle an external force to be medicated and/or accommodated away. Which makes them all feel like winners, while simultaneously depriving them of the lessons to be learned from losing.
> 
> An emotional makeup formed by an entire childhood of easy wins is both narcissistic and also terribly fragile when faced with real-world struggles and adversity.


I agree and want to add something to your analysis. The bizarre aspect is that kids are so damn scheduled with all sorts of activities, many of which, like sports, SHOULD be the medicine needed, but they now get participation trophies. When kids played in the neighborhood, they had no parental referee there managing the kids' feelings, instead egos clashed, feuds developed, fights happened, resolutions developed, feuds were let go of, egos managed to finds ways to coexist.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

The job of parents is to teach their kids to become an adult, not to remain a child. To do that, you have to make them encounter and overcome obstacles, and so many are doing the opposite, as well as in school.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Another phenomenon I've seen with this generation is their parents let them run the show even when they're real young. Like letting a 5-year-old be who chooses where to sit in a restaurant and what to eat and not making them try things if there's any resistence. Now you'd think the letting them make decisions normally the purview of the parent might teach them independence, but the couple of cases I've seen up close, all it did was make them very uncomfortable with anything they didn't choose for themselves. That doesn't work in real life.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Another phenomenon I've seen with this generation is their parents let them run the show even when they're real young. Like letting a 5-year-old be who chooses where to sit in a restaurant and what to eat and not making them try things if there's any resistence. Now you'd think the letting them make decisions normally the purview of the parent might teach them independence, but the couple of cases I've seen up close, all it did was make them very uncomfortable with anything they didn't choose for themselves. That doesn't work in real life.


And where are the parents learning to parent this way? 

Go backwards in time, way, way back, 50 generations. Now let's start moving forward in time and let's watch the intergenerational change in parenting behavior. There is almost zero generational change. People parented their kids by how they were taught by their parents, having lived through being raised by their parents. Some new source of information has interjected itself between grandparent and parent and claimed for itself such authority that the parents are over-riding their own lived experience.


----------



## Pam (Oct 7, 2010)

I have remarked many times that my daughter is letting the inmates run the asylum. The kids (youngest is 18 now) have eventually straightened themselves up and realized that the examples their parents set were good, but there have been some interesting times.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Well, a bunch of keyboard warriors with no particular expertise in the field can cry about the shortcomings of today's youth, which only means we're following in the same footsteps as every single aging generation before us.

I don't see any mention of the things you will encounter if you research what the professionals in the field describe as some of the likely culprits - growing up in a society where there is actually far MORE pressure on youth to perform in academics and other activities, the rise of social media and the inevitable comparisons of you crappy life with the shiny example you see on Facebook for your friends, or living in an age of increased exposure to things like school shootings and the 24/7 news cycle.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The job of parents is to teach their kids to become an adult, not to remain a child. To do that, you have to make them encounter and overcome obstacles, and so many are doing the opposite, as well as in school.


I have a relative who teaches HS and says a number of her students are the breadwinners for their families. She's not talking about students who have children.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Well, a bunch of keyboard warriors with no particular expertise in the field can cry about the shortcomings of today's youth, which only means we're following in the same footsteps as every single aging generation before us.


What I always think of when someone complains about "Today's Youth".

Monty Python's "The Four Yorkshiremen"


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

First world problem that comes about, in part, as a result of constantly coddling. I have noticed that most people that have dealt with actual adversity in their lives seem to be immune to anxiety. 

Also, I have a friend that had test taking anxiety in college and there were a bunch of special rules that applied to only her when it came to taking exams. One such rule was that she never had a time limit imposed on her.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I see anxiety in kids all the time at my job. (I give anesthesia). I have given countless numbers of anesthesia for kids who have anxiety that manifests into vague GI symptoms. So we often do a colonoscopy or upper endoscopy to rule out some sort of pathology, but it’s super common for everything to look fine and it just be anxiety related. 

I also see that parents don’t tell Kids to buck up anymore. I know this is controversial, but the truth is it’s totally normal to be nervous and scared at times. We all need to put our big boy and girl pants on and handle things. 

I have seen multiple parents not tell their kids about the fact that they are about to have surgery or some big procedure that requires anesthesia. I had a 9 year old last week that the mother totally lied to him, and when I went to consent for anesthesia she hushed me and basically didn’t allow me to tell the kid anything. 9 years old!!! I was blown away.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> And where are the parents learning to parent this way?
> 
> Go backwards in time, way, way back, 50 generations. Now let's start moving forward in time and let's watch the intergenerational change in parenting behavior. There is almost zero generational change. People parented their kids by how they were taught by their parents, having lived through being raised by their parents. Some new source of information has interjected itself between grandparent and parent and claimed for itself such authority that the parents are over-riding their own lived experience.


In the couple of cases I know up close I think it's more desperation trying to be friends with the kids instead of parent them. They don't want them mad at them at all for any reason. I think it's neediness in those particular two instances but I can't speak for the rest.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

I wonder if there is a variation on the "Heir and the spare" thing going on. Family size is smaller, each kid requires more investment to launch him into life, so the parents are far more invested in making sure the kid is hitting all of the benchmarks needed to climb the social ladder. I wonder how things were in China with the One Child Policy.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Social media causes anxiety. Yet for some reason people live on it knowing how bad it is for them.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> And where are the parents learning to parent this way?
> 
> Go backwards in time, way, way back, 50 generations. Now let's start moving forward in time and let's watch the intergenerational change in parenting behavior. There is almost zero generational change. People parented their kids by how they were taught by their parents, having lived through being raised by their parents. Some new source of information has interjected itself between grandparent and parent and claimed for itself such authority that the parents are over-riding their own lived experience.


People always want to do what they perceive as better, then their parents. What happened is, adults became sensitive and hedonistic, and they raised hedonistic children. Adults and parents don’t want to give up their bad behavior, so why should the kids? And then we all have a weird way of rationalizing our bad behavior.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Social media causes anxiety. Yet for some reason people live on it knowing how bad it is for them.


No different than dating. Men and women often date someone they know is bad for them but they are hooked on their looks, the sex, the drama, the status. They're getting something out of it. Those people on social media who get riled up by some Twatter outrage are getting something out getting riled up, likely an ego stroking of some kind.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> No different than dating. Men and women often date someone they know is bad for them but they are hooked on their looks, the sex, the drama, the status. They're getting something out of it. Those people on social media who get riled up by some Twatter outrage are getting something out getting riled up, likely an ego stroking of some kind.


We all love the drama. That’s why I’m on here!


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> People always want to do what they perceive as better, then their parents. What happened is, adults became sensitive and hedonistic, and they raised hedonistic children. Adults and parents don’t want to give up their bad behavior, so why should the kids? And then we all have a weird way of rationalizing our bad behavior.


I'm not so sure that this contest or inspiration is wired into us. Obviously we don't know how parents raised kids 50 generations ago, but what we do know is that there was not a lot of social churn in many societies long ago. Traditions carried on for centuries, a way of life was preserved. Parenting behavior was like a constant, something that merely was, and it was the same generation after generation after generation, hence low social churn. 

Noam Chomsky wrote "Manufacturing Consent" as a political treatise, but the process is equally applied to social behavioral norms. Media needs content in order to sell advertising, telling parents how to be better IS media content. It's filler, even when it is garbage advice.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Here are some stats from the government about anxiety on the rise, especially in young people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is a strange phenomenon. It probably has a lot of causes. I do strongly agree that kids are being raised too soft. They are not generally prepared for the real world, they are told they are special, they don't understand it is possible to fail and continue on because things are setup so they never fail. Entitlement doesn't begin to describe some kids now. When my son still played town rec sports that didn't really keep score officially the kids always knew who won. At the end of one season when my sons team was really really bad they all got trophy's just like the team that was the best in the league. When my son got home with his trophy he just threw it away because his team "sucked and didn't deserve a trophy". It was a proud moment and I was sure to validate him, I said yah you guys really did suck. He was 9. 

The living lives online is also a huge problem. Kids are comparing themselves to the BS lives kids portray online and it makes them depressed. Kids get to college and have very little real life social skills sometimes. Social media bullying can be utterly brutal and fake rumors about a kid can spread in 10 minutes today before the target even knows whats happening. 

I might be tough on my kids sometimes and maybe a little too harsh but it's a harsh world and they need to learn how to deal with it. 

My sister is a high school teacher and the stuff she gets from parents is insane. She had one girl who was getting an F whose mom came into school and confronted my sister demanding to know why her daughter had an F. My sister explained she had missed most of the homework assignments and failed most of the tests. The mother heard this and then informed my sister that she was making her daughter suicidal because she was failing her and if she didn't change her grade to a B+ she would go to the school board to get her fired. 

I one time was hiring a new entry level employee for my business and out of the 5 interviews 2 college graduates showed up to the interview with a parent. Let me say that again, 2 21+ year old college graduates showed up to the interview with their moms. Not like mom gave them a ride the moms came into the conference room with the kid for the interview. And one mom called to see if the kid got the job. Um know I didn't give the job to the kid who came to the interview with his mom. It was really really strange.

So you want an answer to why kids are having a tough time adjusting to real life. Their parents mostly.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Anecdotally speaking, I'd estimate that about 70% of the women I admit to Labor and Delivery have an ongoing or history of anxiety. Many are untreated, some were treated in middle-high school and stopped in college. 

My daughter has severe social anxiety. It started when her large group of friends in 6th grade unceremoniosly dumped her from the group. Her crime she was "too nice to the losers and was told to stop and didn't." It was very hard for her to see all her old friends on social media still getting together and having fun. We made the decision together to drop all these girls as "friends" on Instagram (her only social media allowed to use at the time) and things got much better. But her next group of friends were not always good to her either. She's just never been the same since that turning point in 6th grade. She feels very different from most of her friends. She is very concerned with social issues and they all think she's crazy to worry about that stuff. I'm hopeful when she gets to college and she has a wider pool of friends to choose from she'll find new friends that align more with her values and her anxiety will decrease. Time will tell I guess.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> I'm not so sure that this contest or inspiration is wired into us. Obviously we don't know how parents raised kids 50 generations ago, but what we do know is that there was not a lot of social churn in many societies long ago. Traditions carried on for centuries, a way of life was preserved. Parenting behavior was like a constant, something that merely was, and it was the same generation after generation after generation, hence low social churn.
> 
> Noam Chomsky wrote "Manufacturing Consent" as a political treatise, but the process is equally applied to social behavioral norms. Media needs content in order to sell advertising, telling parents how to be better IS media content. It's filler, even when it is garbage advice.


I know how parents raised their kids 50 years ago. I was born in1952. 

Parents had dinner at a certain time and kids ate what was served. Breakfast either cooked or cereal every morning, always milk; school lunch or sandwich or soup; and balanced dinner at 5:00 with the whole family. 

Kids weren't allowed to just stay home from school for lame reasons. Kids didn't get enough allowance to actually have much choice in buying something. For example, I got $3 a week, and $2.50 of it went to pay for school lunch, all the way through high school. I couldn't believe when my friend was handing her 6 year old $30 to waste every week on more Legos. 

Parents didn't hover over their kids like they do now. Kids actually had more freedom to roam and do things on their own, and it made them independent and more fearless. I would be gone all day some days riding my horse or visiting a friend. But I had to be home for dinner. I learned to do things on my own and entertain myself. Most kids were expected to entertain themselves if there were adults having a conversation, not interrupt and whine and demand attention. Just much better manners. 

Kids all learned to drive asap so their parents could stop shuttling them around. 

Kids rarely ever went out to restaurants with their parents because restaurants frowned on bringing kids. It was only on rare occasions. If a young one was disrupting the place, the host or hostess might come to your table and tell you where the lounge is, hint, hint. Kids were just a lot quieter in public and with adults around. But they were loud and crazy kids when outdoor playing --- and outdoors is where they usually played. I remember going to Mississippi to visit an aunt with my mom once and there were about 4 kids there. It was 100 degrees and humid, and my aunt kicked all the kids out of the house for the whole day. She wasn't having any of it. She was stricter than my mother would have been. But in those days, others could tell your kids what to do if you were on their turf. Nobody squawked.

There was a lot less s**t-fitting in grocery stores because some kid wanted something they couldn't have. In fact, no one sweated it about giving their kids everything they wanted as far as toys and treats like they do now. The only toys we got in my family were at birthday and Christmas, period. Now people litter their whole house and yard with every kid toy imaginable. The emphasis was on using your imagination because everyone, even the kids, knew you get a new toy and the new wears off by the end of the day anyway -- unless it was a toy lending itself to imagination play. Having a fit in public is something you might get a heinie whuppin for right there on the spot. It just wasn't acceptable to act the fool and make a spectacle of yourself. 

One thing that varied back then was some parents required their kids to do a lot of chores, and others didn't. I didn't have to much housework at all, but I took care of things outside a lot, fed the animals, carried water, etc. But most kids had to do more than me around the house.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

notmyjamie said:


> Anecdotally speaking, I'd estimate that about 70% of the women I admit to Labor and Delivery have an ongoing or history of anxiety. Many are untreated, some were treated in middle-high school and stopped in college.
> 
> My daughter has severe social anxiety. It started when her large group of friends in 6th grade unceremoniosly dumped her from the group. Her crime she was "too nice to the losers and was told to stop and didn't." It was very hard for her to see all her old friends on social media still getting together and having fun. We made the decision together to drop all these girls as "friends" on Instagram (her only social media allowed to use at the time) and things got much better. But her next group of friends were not always good to her either. She's just never been the same since that turning point in 6th grade. She feels very different from most of her friends. She is very concerned with social issues and they all think she's crazy to worry about that stuff. I'm hopeful when she gets to college and she has a wider pool of friends to choose from she'll find new friends that align more with her values and her anxiety will decrease. Time will tell I guess.


Does she have an internal or external locus of control?

If she is focused on social issues, that's simply her coming to associate with a different group of people. She's getting media messaging on this social issue aspect and is LIKING either the message or the type of people associated with that messaging. Whatever is going on with her former group of friends, they had an image and they had a mini-culture (don't be nice to those losers) and her own self-image didn't fit.

However, on the issue of anxiety, those vapid former friends have an easier route to reduce anxiety - fix yourself so that you fit in and then you will be accepted. For your daughter to be concerned with social issues and feeling anxious about them, often times the people in her new group don't actually have the power to fix the social issue that they're concerned about. If she is anxious about global warming, she's still going to be anxious even when every single friend of hers belongs to Greenpeace. Meanwhile, that Mean Girl clique will adopt the anxious Lindsay Lohan who will change to being a Mean Girl and will lose her feelings of anxiety.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

notmyjamie said:


> Anecdotally speaking, I'd estimate that about 70% of the women I admit to Labor and Delivery have an ongoing or history of anxiety. Many are untreated, some were treated in middle-high school and stopped in college.
> 
> My daughter has severe social anxiety. It started when her large group of friends in 6th grade unceremoniosly dumped her from the group. Her crime she was "too nice to the losers and was told to stop and didn't." It was very hard for her to see all her old friends on social media still getting together and having fun. We made the decision together to drop all these girls as "friends" on Instagram (her only social media allowed to use at the time) and things got much better. But her next group of friends were not always good to her either. She's just never been the same since that turning point in 6th grade. She feels very different from most of her friends. She is very concerned with social issues and they all think she's crazy to worry about that stuff. I'm hopeful when she gets to college and she has a wider pool of friends to choose from she'll find new friends that align more with her values and her anxiety will decrease. Time will tell I guess.


Everyone has anxiety to a certain degree. I for sure get anxious, doesn’t mean I need treatment. I am tough enough to handle emotions I am not comfortable with, which essentially is anxiety.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> It is a strange phenomenon. It probably has a lot of causes. I do strongly agree that kids are being raised too soft. They are not generally prepared for the real world, they are told they are special, they don't understand it is possible to fail and continue on because things are setup so they never fail. Entitlement doesn't begin to describe some kids now. When my son still played town rec sports that didn't really keep score officially the kids always knew who won. At the end of one season when my sons team was really really bad they all got trophy's just like the team that was the best in the league. When my son got home with his trophy he just threw it away because his team "sucked and didn't deserve a trophy". It was a proud moment and I was sure to validate him, I said yah you guys really did suck. He was 9.
> 
> The living lives online is also a huge problem. Kids are comparing themselves to the BS lives kids portray online and it makes them depressed. Kids get to college and have very little real life social skills sometimes. Social media bullying can be utterly brutal and fake rumors about a kid can spread in 10 minutes today before the target even knows whats happening.
> 
> ...


See, that's why eventually all that trophy for all ends in lack of self-esteem because eventually, if the kid has a live cell in his brain, he's going to look back and realize it was all just a gimme and that his confidence is based on a lie. Also, if his mother has been telling him (and this goes on) he's the most handsome boy in the world, he gets unrealistic expectations and a real letdown when confronted with reality. I know someone guilty of this. Now, I will say I sort of understand it. To a mother, there is nothing more beautiful than her child, but common sense should keep them from pumping their head full of air. 

I've heard those stories about parents coming to interviews. Jeez. As if. If the parent calls, I hope you just tell them that is confidential information only for the applicant's ears. 

Someone I know used to take her (already poor student) out of class so many times a year that she had to answer for it eventually. She literally thought it was okay. I mean, she would just take him out if she wanted him to go with her somewhere, because you know, she treated him more like a friend. I mean, he was already a terrible student, and he lied to her about why his homework wasn't turned in and things like that. I was actually the one who busted him for that once. Because his mom would believe anything he said and didn't want to see how manipulative he was. 

He told her in front of me that he just forgot to take his homework in, but that he had actually done it and that he couldn't remember to take it, and she just nodded right along. I said, "Hey, I thought kids were able to e-mail their homework to their teachers these days, so if you have trouble remembering, you can just start doing that right when you finish it." His mother thought that was a good idea, and you should have seen the pissy look he gave me. His little scam was over. 

He's still living at home, needless to say. But he did get a job before the virus, and that helped build his confidence a little. I was glad to see it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

notmyjamie said:


> Anecdotally speaking, I'd estimate that about 70% of the women I admit to Labor and Delivery have an ongoing or history of anxiety. Many are untreated, some were treated in middle-high school and stopped in college.
> 
> My daughter has severe social anxiety. It started when her large group of friends in 6th grade unceremoniosly dumped her from the group. Her crime she was "too nice to the losers and was told to stop and didn't." It was very hard for her to see all her old friends on social media still getting together and having fun. We made the decision together to drop all these girls as "friends" on Instagram (her only social media allowed to use at the time) and things got much better. But her next group of friends were not always good to her either. She's just never been the same since that turning point in 6th grade. She feels very different from most of her friends. She is very concerned with social issues and they all think she's crazy to worry about that stuff. I'm hopeful when she gets to college and she has a wider pool of friends to choose from she'll find new friends that align more with her values and her anxiety will decrease. Time will tell I guess.


I think it's pretty normal for middle school and high school kids to have a certain amount of anxiety because they are having to adjust to a lot of things and, you know, puberty! But that's the time they do need to learn to deal with obstacles like your daughter is encountering. Because what you don't want is them dealing with it for the first time on their first real job. And that is what happens. But I do think anxiety in teens and lack of confidence in teens is par for the course. It's a tough time emotionally, hormonally. It's the trial by fire. It's those who never graduate out of it by using their willpower that I mostly am addressing with this thread, young adults. 

Teens are very self-conscious, nearly all of them. It's when you have to pull yourself up and fake it til you make it, I think.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

notmyjamie said:


> Anecdotally speaking, I'd estimate that about 70% of the women I admit to Labor and Delivery have an ongoing or history of anxiety. Many are untreated, some were treated in middle-high school and stopped in college.
> 
> My daughter has severe social anxiety. It started when her large group of friends in 6th grade unceremoniosly dumped her from the group. Her crime she was "too nice to the losers and was told to stop and didn't." It was very hard for her to see all her old friends on social media still getting together and having fun. We made the decision together to drop all these girls as "friends" on Instagram (her only social media allowed to use at the time) and things got much better. But her next group of friends were not always good to her either. She's just never been the same since that turning point in 6th grade. She feels very different from most of her friends. She is very concerned with social issues and they all think she's crazy to worry about that stuff. I'm hopeful when she gets to college and she has a wider pool of friends to choose from she'll find new friends that align more with her values and her anxiety will decrease. Time will tell I guess.


I also think that physicians are quick to put depression and anxiety down and a diagnosis that stays on your chart forever. 

When I was going through my divorce, changing careers, and moving, I got a new doctor and she asked me basically about my mental health, and I made a big point of saying, yea I’m depressed and anxious, but it’s situational only, NOT a clinical diagnosis.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> Does she have an internal or external locus of control?
> 
> If she is focused on social issues, that's simply her coming to associate with a different group of people. She's getting media messaging on this social issue aspect and is LIKING either the message or the type of people associated with that messaging. Whatever is going on with her former group of friends, they had an image and they had a mini-culture (don't be nice to those losers) and her own self-image didn't fit.
> 
> However, on the issue of anxiety, those vapid former friends have an easier route to reduce anxiety - fix yourself so that you fit in and then you will be accepted. For your daughter to be concerned with social issues and feeling anxious about them, often times the people in her new group don't actually have the power to fix the social issue that they're concerned about. If she is anxious about global warming, she's still going to be anxious even when every single friend of hers belongs to Greenpeace. Meanwhile, that Mean Girl clique will adopt the anxious Lindsay Lohan who will change to being a Mean Girl and will lose her feelings of anxiety.


She's not anxious about the social issues, she feels "different" and sometimes almost like a "freak" because she's the only one of her friends who thinks the same way she does. She actually enjoys that she is concerned with social issues and she likes to do her part...setting up recycle bins at school for example.She is not about to change the way she thinks just to fit in, which I support. But it feels, to her, like she is constantly defending her position, ie. her political views are polar opposite than almost all her friends, she is concerned with environmental issues, her friends not only don't care about them, they act like she's crazy to be thinking about it, and on and on and on. 

Her anxiety revolves around feeling so different from everyone else around her and she does not feel secure in such an environment because the last time she felt that way all her friends dropped her like a hot potato and were quite mean to her. She no longer feels secure about herself because of this. And honestly, there are no more groups of friends for her to jump to to make things better. Hence my statement that I'm hoping with a wider pool of candidates for friends she can link up with some more likeminded people and gain some confidence in herself again. Before this all started she was a VERY secure kid. It's sad to see the change in her quite frankly.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> Everyone has anxiety to a certain degree. I for sure get anxious, doesn’t mean I need treatment. I am tough enough to handle emotions I am not comfortable with, which essentially is anxiety.


I wasn't trying to say all people with anxiety need to be treated. I was just giving an overview of what I'm noticing in my younger patients (15-35.)


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> I also think that physicians are quick to put depression and anxiety down and a diagnosis that stays on your chart forever.
> 
> When I was going through my divorce, changing careers, and moving, I got a new doctor and she asked me basically about my mental health, and I made a big point of saying, yea I’m depressed and anxious, but it’s situational only, NOT a clinical diagnosis.


I agree completely. I was once told my set of symptoms in my early 20's was depression. It wasn't...it was a seizure disorder. It went untreated until I had a grand mal while driving and had an accident. I woke up to my car careening down the opposite side of the road about to drive into a pond.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think it's pretty normal for middle school and high school kids to have a certain amount of anxiety because they are having to adjust to a lot of things and, you know, puberty! But that's the time they do need to learn to deal with obstacles like your daughter is encountering. Because what you don't want is them dealing with it for the first time on their first real job. And that is what happens. But I do think anxiety in teens and lack of confidence in teens is par for the course. It's a tough time emotionally, hormonally. It's the trial by fire. It's those who never graduate out of it by using their willpower that I mostly am addressing with this thread, young adults.
> 
> Teens are very self-conscious, nearly all of them. It's when you have to pull yourself up and fake it til you make it, I think.


Yea yes yes to all of this! And I think it’s important for parents to let them know that these feelings are normal, and we all still have to get sh*t done and not let emotions effect what we need to do. 
Too many parents put the emphasis on how they are feeling, and because it’s usually negative, they are focusing on the negativity which is wrong. 

It needs to be like.. I know your feel anxious and insecure, but hold your head up high, go up to some kids and say hi. (Or whatever). Parents need to be the positive voice in their negative kids head. Your funny, your a great person, anyone would want to be your friend, be proud of yourself, blah blah blah.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think it's pretty normal for middle school and high school kids to have a certain amount of anxiety because they are having to adjust to a lot of things and, you know, puberty! But that's the time they do need to learn to deal with obstacles like your daughter is encountering. Because what you don't want is them dealing with it for the first time on their first real job. And that is what happens. But I do think anxiety in teens and lack of confidence in teens is par for the course. It's a tough time emotionally, hormonally. It's the trial by fire. It's those who never graduate out of it by using their willpower that I mostly am addressing with this thread, young adults.
> 
> Teens are very self-conscious, nearly all of them. It's when you have to pull yourself up and fake it til you make it, I think.


Her anxiety is way beyond normal anxiety. I'll just leave it at that.

And contrary to what some have suggested, I am her mother and not her friend and I do not coddle her. Her Dad's family has a strong family history of depression and anxiety. She has made great strides with therapy and the medication.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

double post, sorry!


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

There are a lot of the more serious psychiatric diseases that doctors are not allowed to pin on anyone until they are of a certain age, like once their brain has finished developing. I know for awhile, there were a lot of kids being probably overdiagnosed, and I'm not a doctor, but you have to be careful medicating growing brains. 

I think behavior therapy would be the place to at least start. And I'm a believe that if a kid needs therapy -- the whole family needs therapy, because he/she didn't get that way in a vacuum.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> Yea yes yes to all of this! And I think it’s important for parents to let them know that these feelings are normal, and we all still have to get sh*t done and not let emotions effect what we need to do.
> Too many parents put the emphasis on how they are feeling, and because it’s usually negative, they are focusing on the negativity which is wrong.
> 
> It needs to be like.. I know your feel anxious and insecure, but hold your head up high, go up to some kids and say hi. (Or whatever). Parents need to be the positive voice in their negative kids head. Your funny, your a great person, anyone would want to be your friend, be proud of yourself, blah blah blah.



If only it were that simple. It's just not in some cases. Some cases of depression and anxiety are WAY beyond that. I'm out of this thread now. Not really enjoying the insinuation if I just expected more from her and told her she needs to suck it up she'd be all better and that I'm a bad mother for not doing it. I wish it were that easy, believe me. I've spent many years doing all the things you're all suggesting.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

notmyjamie said:


> She's not anxious about the social issues, she feels "different" and sometimes almost like a "freak" because she's the only one of her friends who thinks the same way she does. She actually enjoys that she is concerned with social issues and she likes to do her part...setting up recycle bins at school for example.She is not about to change the way she thinks just to fit in, which I support. But it feels, to her, like she is constantly defending her position, ie. her political views are polar opposite than almost all her friends, she is concerned with environmental issues, her friends not only don't care about them, they act like she's crazy to be thinking about it, and on and on and on.
> 
> Her anxiety revolves around feeling so different from everyone else around her and she does not feel secure in such an environment because the last time she felt that way all her friends dropped her like a hot potato and were quite mean to her. She no longer feels secure about herself because of this. And honestly, there are no more groups of friends for her to jump to to make things better. Hence my statement that I'm hoping with a wider pool of candidates for friends she can link up with some more likeminded people and gain some confidence in herself again. Before this all started she was a VERY secure kid. It's sad to see the change in her quite frankly.


I get not feeling like everyone else. I was sooo insecure in school, and totally socially awkward. I am still socially awkward to this day, and feel completely out of place on many social situations. 

Not everyone is the same, and it’s ok not to be the same. A lot of highly intelligent people have social issues. Your daughter just needs her self esteem built up, and to know that her self worth has nothing to do with fitting in with a bunch of probably loser kids. Tell her to read outliers... it’s a very good thing to be an outlier


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Yea yes yes to all of this! And I think it’s important for parents to let them know that these feelings are normal, and we all still have to get sh*t done and not let emotions effect what we need to do.
> Too many parents put the emphasis on how they are feeling, and because it’s usually negative, they are focusing on the negativity which is wrong.
> 
> It needs to be like.. I know your feel anxious and insecure, but hold your head up high, go up to some kids and say hi. (Or whatever). Parents need to be the positive voice in their negative kids head. Your funny, your a great person, anyone would want to be your friend, be proud of yourself, blah blah blah.


I completely agree with that, but I won't discount what notmyjamie is saying, which is there are people with more serious hereditary issues. Still, I think encouraging them not to take it to heart and try to get back in the saddle is good advice for all, because trying is nine-tenths the battle. 

One of the things I learned pretty young that someone said and helped my self-consciousness is someone said that most people are too wrapped up in themselves to be paying attention to you or others.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

notmyjamie said:


> If only it were that simple. It's just not in some cases. Some cases of depression and anxiety are WAY beyond that. I'm out of this thread now. Not really enjoying the insinuation if I just expected more from her and told her she needs to suck it up she'd be all better and that I'm a bad mother for not doing it. I wish it were that easy, believe me. I've spent many years doing all the things you're all suggesting.


I’m sorry if I made you feel that way, because I 100% do not think that of you. Some kids actually have real anxiety, like diagnosed anxiety disorder. I was talking more about this fake general anxiety all these kids seem to have.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Certainly there are hereditary issues and also many people get issues from some type of trauma or neglect. Those are what we used to think of as anxiety before this last generation or two. Those would be who was in the "before" numbers in that study I posted.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

notmyjamie said:


> She's not anxious about the social issues, she feels "different" and sometimes almost like a "freak" because she's the only one of her friends who thinks the same way she does. She actually enjoys that she is concerned with social issues and she likes to do her part...setting up recycle bins at school for example.She is not about to change the way she thinks just to fit in, which I support. But it feels, to her, like she is constantly defending her position, ie. her political views are polar opposite than almost all her friends, she is concerned with environmental issues, her friends not only don't care about them, they act like she's crazy to be thinking about it, and on and on and on.
> 
> Her anxiety revolves around feeling so different from everyone else around her and she does not feel secure in such an environment because the last time she felt that way all her friends dropped her like a hot potato and were quite mean to her. She no longer feels secure about herself because of this. And honestly, there are no more groups of friends for her to jump to to make things better. Hence my statement that I'm hoping with a wider pool of candidates for friends she can link up with some more likeminded people and gain some confidence in herself again. Before this all started she was a VERY secure kid. It's sad to see the change in her quite frankly.


The road to personal development is not a single road and it's not cumulative either. She's the odd-girl out, FOR NOW, maybe not next year. What she misses in social development growth with a group of friends she can make up with an online group of friends, reading, doing something like taking piano lessons or whatever, and then rejoin the (different) friends of the future. I take it though that she misses the interactions with other girls aspect. That can be tough.

I was 4 years accelerated in school. At 12 I didn't fit all too well with 16 year olds. I just powered through, made some older friends, kept some younger friends, mostly did my own thing because I had a strong internal locus, I mostly didn't give a **** about not fitting in with the older kids.

My wife was 2 years accelerated. She had some problem different from mine. She carved out her own niche with the older girls, through sheer force of personality. She couldn't be like them, in fact didn't want to be like them, but found a way to make them accept her as someone with something to offer the group with her style of friendship. I was blunter and walked my own path, she was more a negotiator and made a place for herself. Her older friend group wasn't completely insync with her own tastes and interests, but then neither was her same-age group (just like me on this front.)

I don't actually have advice, but do wish your daughter good luck. Others have walked her path before her.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Let's not forget the diagnosis phenomenon:

*Is the prevalence of anxiety disorders increasing?*
It is a widespread opinion in the media that “each year more and more people are suffering from anxiety disorders,” suggesting there has been a relative increase in anxiety disorders over the past 10, 50, or 100 years. However, it is difficult to find reliable evidence for a change in prevalence rates for anxiety disorders. Epidemiologic data obtained before the introduction of psychiatric classification systems such as the _DSM-III_ 31 are too imprecise to be comparable with modern studies. In 1980, the anxiety disorders were reclassified, and panic disorder was incorporated as a new diagnostic entity.









Epidemiology of anxiety disorders in the 21st century


Anxiety disorders, including panic disorder with or without agoraphobia, generalized anxiety disorder, social anxiety disorder, specific phobias, and separation anxiety disorder, are the most prevalent mental disorders and are associated with immense ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## staceymj86 (Apr 14, 2020)

I’m 33 and was diagnosed with PTSD, major depressive disorder and anxiety. I already suffered from depression prior to the pandemic. Being an essential worker at the Post Office was really hard on my mental state this year. I think us young people are suffering from anxiety, due to the state of the world, student loans, debts, raising families and financial difficulties. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, the good news is you are working and functioning, though. I have had PTSD and depression myself. Hope yours goes away sometime. 

Truth is every generation worries about all those things you listed, though. I'm really talking about debilitating anxiety here, not worrying about things that are always a part of everyday life, though that gets us all down pretty often. 

I know the pandemic is hard on most people. Hope it's over soon.


----------



## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

We, the parents and grandparents of today's youngsters, have gone along with changing the world because it suited us - either suited us to do so or simply went along with those who led us because it was better than being labelled "difficult". 

We, I'm 70+ and British, are the luckiest generation ever - and perhaps always will be. We've had it easy - not always - but compared to previous generations those of us who weren't born to money and status have had it much easier than those before or after us.

When I was born the "normal" family had a Dad who could fix everything that went wrong in the house. The radio (cat's whisker - no TV), the washing machine (change the element/put new rollers in the wringer), transport immobilised - get a new 27" inner tube/mend the chain, need to make a phone call - go to the public call box at the end of the street. And yes - a working man (blue or white collar) could expect a pension from the state at 65 - but the average such worker died at 63. We retired at 65 (in my case effectively at 62) and the comparable average life expectancy is 82.

The world is not the same - and we enjoyed it changing. 

But the pace of change increases geometrically rather than arithmetically. What was comfortable is now exhausting. Now it's changing too quickly for brains that evolved to sort, by today's standards, very simple problems - so we oldies, homeowning pensioners, have the luxury of just opting out and moaning. 

Youngsters don't have that option.

We changed society - but we didn't change humanity. It's the youngsters who have to live with the consequences - and many of them do an amazing job of it. But we haven't equipped them to deal with the pressures that our actions have introduced. Sure we had pressures - but nothing like today's - it's, IMO, amazing that so few buckle under the mental stress of this high-speed, ever-changing, winners good-losers bad pressure cooker we've encased them in. We removed their security, we created modern science but taught our kids that it only counts if it agrees with our preferred superstitious nonsense, we complain that they are not like us but dump them in a world which we could not have handled. 

It's all very well saying that modern kids could not have piloted Spitfires. Do you know how few hours training it took to be sent to face the Luftwaffe - and the reason their commanders were young was because so few of those despatched survived more than a few weeks; there were no old Spitfire pilots to become leaders. 

Comparing Spitfires to modern warplanes is like comparing rowing boats to cruise ships yet we need the reflexes of comparative youth to cope with the sophisticated technology that would have baffled Biggles. Putting Spitfire pilots in the planes modern youngsters pilot would be like expecting an accomplished Lego house builder to construct Salisbury Cathedral - 404' to the top of the spire, in a water-meadow with a maximum foundation depth of 6'.

It is said that "with age comes wisdom". Maybe it does occasionally. But generation after generation insists on proving that it is a rare, and much maligned, occurrence. 

Youngsters are just like us, and we were like our grandparents. It's the world that has changed and we don't have the ability to adapt fast enough - hence people-created stress at levels humanity has never had to face before. Evolution is too slow to cope with our need for more, faster, bigger, better. 

We need to support youngsters - not heap further pressure on them by moaning that they aren't as ignorant as we were. 

Stop being old and chill - life is still great if you enjoy it day-by-day.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Compared to my generation I don't think this generation has anything to complain about. They complain about student debt that they themselves apply for as if they don't have a choice. My generation was under considerable more stress because they had to worry about being drafted into a deadly war. 

If the current generation doesn't know how to fix things, it's because nobody bothered to teach them and instead offered them student loans in hopes they could bypass having to be a blue collar worker, but that backfired. 

You can't just wave a wand and change humanity, especially when a lot of humanity is in denial that they are contributing to the problem.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm trying to think of a time when we tried to change humanity that it didn't simply widen the gulf, which is certainly what's going on right now.


----------



## maree (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm 35 and have extremely bad anxiety mixed with depression. I grew up in a typical fatherless home, without a male in the home, and my dad rejected me (and still does). I struggled to fit in with others in school, so I faced rejection there as well. I blame this a lot for my anxiety as I noticed it ramps up around times when my dad reappears in my life. Given that a lot of my peers were also raised by a single parent, some with similar situation as myself (parent rejection), I blame this a lot. This is an issue a lot of people in their 40s, 50s, 60s weren't raised with. Its responsible for a lot of issues in the decay of younger generations. I dont feel most people my age or younger were coddled as children, I certainly wasn't. I grew up as one of 4 kids raised by a single mother on her own - she didn't have time or resources to coddle me. I think people who come to this conclusion just don't get the issue.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Parent abandonment is responsible for many many problems, both mental and just societal. My closest friend has often chosen men who tried to keep her at arm's length because she had abandonment issues. In fact she married one and he literally keeps her at arm's length. I hope it hasn't affected you in that way. I can't say that she really has anxiety. She's pretty mellow. But then she was basically almost on the streets at 14, so she was pretty fearless. It just manifested in a different way. 

The portion we're talking about here are the recent uptick in anxiety in young people. It doesn't seem to be from the normal reasons and seems more to be for reasons to do with lack of socialization and false reward. That did not used to be the case, at least not to the extent it seems to be on the new generation. 

Despite your anxiety and depression, are you functioning? I know that depression, no matter what the cause of it or the type of it, will cause anxiety of a certain type. I have always been extremely decisive and made all my own choices and decisions but when I fell into a really severe situational depression which lasted years, for the only time in my life I was like a boat floating without an anchor and couldn't even get out of the house without thinking about it all day strictly because of indecision, which is just not something I've ever been plagued with at any other time. Depression makes you want to isolate and I think that is all linked to the reason it gives you anxiety. You feel overwhelmed and just want to keep things minimal and simple.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

One thing I’ll input is that we HAVE to stop comparing past generations to current generations. I see often “well these kids need to suck it up. My generation went through the depression” or “My generation went through Vietnam”. Those are both awful things. And during their time, were devastating for the people that lived them. That doesn’t mean that the things kids these days experience are any less stressful or anxiety inducing. Comparing trauma gets no one anywhere. Younger adults experienced 9-11. Even younger adults are experiencing Covid lockdowns, having graduations and seasons taken away from them. I get that – on paper- comparing leaving for Vietnam with not being able to play a football game seems kind of silly. But, in the grand scheme of things – that’s what kids are dealing with RIGHT NOW. My dad worrying about leaving for Vietnam was stressful and scary. It caused anxiety in him, even though he WANTED to go fight for his country (he was actually not allowed as he was an only son – my dad was in the Air Force Vietnam era). BUT, my dad was also very sympathetic to his grandson (my son) who worried he wasn’t going to have a football season. While to many, those anxieties don’t compare – they are still the worries and anxieties that each generation deals with. Anxiety is anxiety regardless of the severity of the situation causing the anxiety. I find it incredibly frustrating when someone tells someone they should just suck it up because someone experienced “worse”.

I think there is a lot of pressure on kids these days and we have to keep in mind how many things have changed. There are a lot of kids who live in poverty, many of them due to living in a single parent home. Jobs are plentiful, but that doesn’t mean they are high paying jobs. In my area, you can walk in just about anywhere and get hired. But you’re going to be paid around $10. MAYBE $15 if you’re lucky. To be just above poverty level, I believe you have to make around $13/hour. Keep in mind, rent in my area is around $800-$1000/month. $500-$600/month puts you in a really sketchy area. I have friends who have student loan payments that are more than my mortgage. One friend pays around $900/month for hers. Her degree is in criminal justice and she makes $42,000/year. Everyone these days has social media. Which also leads to kids getting bullied during off school hours. At least back in the day, if you got bullied at school, you could go home and get away from it. Kids these days can’t get away from it. Sure, you could take their social media platforms away. But for instance a friend of mine has a 12 year old who doesn’t have social media, but her friends do. Her friend showed her an online post the other day about two girls arguing that she (the 12 year old child without social media) should just kill herself.


We have to stop comparing the “old days” to what is going on “these days”. I have 3 children. 13, 16 and 19. My 19 year old is studying in the mental health field. The things that my kids deal with are vastly different than the things I dealt with at their age. Because the world is DIFFERENT now.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LosingHim said:


> One thing I’ll input is that we HAVE to stop comparing past generations to current generations. I see often “well these kids need to suck it up. My generation went through the depression” or “My generation went through Vietnam”. Those are both awful things. And during their time, were devastating for the people that lived them. That doesn’t mean that the things kids these days experience are any less stressful or anxiety inducing. Comparing trauma gets no one anywhere. Younger adults experienced 9-11. Even younger adults are experiencing Covid lockdowns, having graduations and seasons taken away from them. I get that – on paper- comparing leaving for Vietnam with not being able to play a football game seems kind of silly. But, in the grand scheme of things – that’s what kids are dealing with RIGHT NOW. My dad worrying about leaving for Vietnam was stressful and scary. It caused anxiety in him, even though he WANTED to go fight for his country (he was actually not allowed as he was an only son – my dad was in the Air Force Vietnam era). BUT, my dad was also very sympathetic to his grandson (my son) who worried he wasn’t going to have a football season. While to many, those anxieties don’t compare – they are still the worries and anxieties that each generation deals with. Anxiety is anxiety regardless of the severity of the situation causing the anxiety. I find it incredibly frustrating when someone tells someone they should just suck it up because someone experienced “worse”.
> 
> I think there is a lot of pressure on kids these days and we have to keep in mind how many things have changed. There are a lot of kids who live in poverty, many of them due to living in a single parent home. Jobs are plentiful, but that doesn’t mean they are high paying jobs. In my area, you can walk in just about anywhere and get hired. But you’re going to be paid around $10. MAYBE $15 if you’re lucky. To be just above poverty level, I believe you have to make around $13/hour. Keep in mind, rent in my area is around $800-$1000/month. $500-$600/month puts you in a really sketchy area. I have friends who have student loan payments that are more than my mortgage. One friend pays around $900/month for hers. Her degree is in criminal justice and she makes $42,000/year. Everyone these days has social media. Which also leads to kids getting bullied during off school hours. At least back in the day, if you got bullied at school, you could go home and get away from it. Kids these days can’t get away from it. Sure, you could take their social media platforms away. But for instance a friend of mine has a 12 year old who doesn’t have social media, but her friends do. Her friend showed her an online post the other day about two girls arguing that she (the 12 year old child without social media) should just kill herself.
> 
> ...


I can't say I agree, but the central point is that people have to learn to deal with stress and obstacles, all of them, every generation, and that's kind of what this post is about. We have a lot f anxiety-ridden young adults who are just isolating instead. Seriously, this generation isn't any worse off than prior ones. Most of them will be fine, but trends have made it okay for them to just not face the world, and that's not okay.

If you live in a place where there are still $900 rents and people making $42,000, honestly, that is a great deal. Here it's higher than that now and still no one except the usual crowd have good jobs. I've worked two jobs most of my life. I've still never made $42,000 a year, even with two jobs. At least there are jobs now. I've been through times when it was 15 percent unemployment. 30 percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and are overwhelmed by debt to keep a roof over their head -- and this generation asks them to pay for their college. It's just gimme, gimme, gimme. You pay so I don't have to deal with life.

I agree with you that every generation has stresses and feels them, because discomfort is all relative.

I enjoyed listening to my mom and dad's stories of survival when I was a kid and learned from them. My dad was scrappy and made a buck where he could. My mom grew up in a little house in the middle of nowhere with no electricity and no running water. She had nostalgic memories of it. Not only did I get to hear the stories, but some of her relatives were still living like that and I got to visit them and experience it for myself. It gives you perspective and also faith in the human spirit that people can survive and even be happy, even in less than ideal situations.

You help people who help themselves.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I can't say I agree, but the central point is that people have to learn to deal with stress and obstacles, all of them, every generation, and that's kind of what this post is about. We have a lot f anxiety-ridden young adults who are just isolating instead. Seriously, this generation isn't any worse off than prior ones. Most of them will be fine, but trends have made it okay for them to just not face the world, and that's not okay.
> 
> If you live in a place where there are still $900 rents and people making $42,000, honestly, that is a great deal. Here it's higher than that now and still no one except the usual crowd have good jobs. I've worked two jobs most of my life. I've still never made $42,000 a year, even with two jobs. At least there are jobs now. I've been through times when it was 15 percent unemployment. 30 percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and are overwhelmed by debt to keep a roof over their head -- and this generation asks them to pay for their college. It's just gimme, gimme, gimme. You pay so I don't have to deal with life.
> 
> ...


My comment said $900/month student loan payments. Yes, she makes $42,000/year, but that $900/month student loan payment is ALSO in addition to her mortgage. Luckily, housing prices are pretty darn good in my area so she has a decent mortgage (I believe that she told me her mortgage is around $600-&$700/month). So that right there is lets say $1500/month in just a student loan and mortgage. At $42,000/year, that is a third of her income BEFORE TAXES. I will add that she has a husband, who makes a bit more than she does, but still. 2 car payments, a mortgage, a ridiculously high student loan payment, 2 kids, medical bills, etc. just like the majority of people in my area – they GET BY. I get that people don’t have to go to college and that by going to college you’re understanding that you have to repay the loan, but I’m sorry. That is ridiculous. She works in a very noble field. I won’t go into specifics, but her field is in and of itself high anxiety. The things that she witnesses first hand have actually caused her to go through a time period where she herself was suicidal. Again, no specifics, but she’s seen things with rape, abuse, child pornography, etc. that no person should ever have to endure. I guess my point is, she went into this field to help people. She never did it for the money. But to get into this field, the amount she has to repay on a student loan just adds to the anxiety of the job that she does. At some point, she’ll have to decide if it’s worth it.



Housing at $800-$1000/month may sound great. But when the job market in your area doesn’t pay well, it’s not that great. I work for one of the best companies in my area. Pay starts at $13/hour. If you want to live in a safe area, you are going to be house poor. I know MANY people that work their tail off every day to live in a shoebox because maybe they aren’t financially able to yet buy their own home. A few years ago, my husband and I were splitting up. I make a decent wage for my area and STILL didn’t know if I could make it on my own.

Of course we rise above and learn to deal with our own anxieties. I know several people who do it every single day. I’m one of them. I wouldn’t just say that it’s the younger generation that doesn’t know how though. I know many people that are older than me (I’m 42) who live in the anxiety, depression and suck and don’t cope or “take charge” of their own lives. Some are in my own family.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I get that people don’t have to go to college and that by going to college you’re understanding that you have to repay the loan, but I’m sorry.


College costs today are a legitimate cause for anxiety.

I graduated in 1989 with a grand total of $3,000 debt. I could pay that off in a lump sum after getting my first job. I could cover the cost of tuition with Pell grants, 2 summer jobs, and 30/hours/week in part-time work. 

That option is simply not available to today's youth. Tuition costs are rising at roughly 8%/year, far outpacing inflation and student's ability to pay. And let's be real here - if you want a higher income career, a college tuition is not a luxury except for some very niche trades. 

I would be anxious too if I were entering university today.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LosingHim said:


> My comment said $900/month student loan payments. Yes, she makes $42,000/year, but that $900/month student loan payment is ALSO in addition to her mortgage. Luckily, housing prices are pretty darn good in my area so she has a decent mortgage (I believe that she told me her mortgage is around $600-&$700/month). So that right there is lets say $1500/month in just a student loan and mortgage. At $42,000/year, that is a third of her income BEFORE TAXES. I will add that she has a husband, who makes a bit more than she does, but still. 2 car payments, a mortgage, a ridiculously high student loan payment, 2 kids, medical bills, etc. just like the majority of people in my area – they GET BY. I get that people don’t have to go to college and that by going to college you’re understanding that you have to repay the loan, but I’m sorry. That is ridiculous. She works in a very noble field. I won’t go into specifics, but her field is in and of itself high anxiety. The things that she witnesses first hand have actually caused her to go through a time period where she herself was suicidal. Again, no specifics, but she’s seen things with rape, abuse, child pornography, etc. that no person should ever have to endure. I guess my point is, she went into this field to help people. She never did it for the money. But to get into this field, the amount she has to repay on a student loan just adds to the anxiety of the job that she does. At some point, she’ll have to decide if it’s worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whose decision was it she take out a student loan? Not mine. Just like the debt I ran up on credit cards wasn't her responsibility.

Certainly there are older people with anxiety. The study is about the upward trend and most of it is young people. 

Remember there are other places to live, though it sounds to me like your area has relatively low housing and good pay. $42,000, she should be able to pay that debt off easily. 

Neither one of you has two jobs, then? Because sometimes that's what it takes to pay the bills.

I'm 68, still working two jobs and not going to pay off your daughter's student debt she opted to take on. I think that would cause me too much anxiety.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Whose decision was it she take out a student loan? Not mine. Just like the debt I ran up on credit cards wasn't her responsibility.
> 
> Certainly there are older people with anxiety. The study is about the upward trend and most of it is young people.
> 
> ...



I’ve already said it was her responsibility to pay her student loan and that it was her CHOICE to take the loan. My POINT is the expense of an education is cause for anxiety. It is highly stressed these days to get a degree if you want to “be something”. Trades are not pushed as much as they were in the past. Every employer wants a degree and 10 years experience to even consider you for a job. I’ve never once suggested that someone else should pay my friends student loan. My point from the beginning has been that the cost of student loans is a source of stress and anxiety for many young people. I do believe that you’re also skipping over the point where I’ve said numerous times that jobs are plentiful in my area, but the pay is low. ONE of my friends makes $42,000/year. That is the same friend with a $900/month student loan payment. If she didn’t have a husband and rented a house in the area for $1000/month (which is about the going rate) she’d have $1900/month in payments on TWO items. That is over a third of her income before any taxes are taken out. I make more than $42,000/year. Spending $1900/month on a student loan and rent would devastate me. After taxes, insurance, 401K, etc. I would be left with around $900/month. Car payment? Medical bills? Utilities? Groceries? That’s ASININE! A student loan payment should not be on par with (or more than) a mortgage payment.


Many jobs in this area pay around $13/hour (if you don’t have a degree). That’s $27,000/year. Rent being around $800-$1000/month in the area. At that wage, that’s about 2 weeks pay just to have a roof. Again, car payments, utilities, medical bills, groceries, etc. I actually just googled my area. The average wage in my area is $21,959. Google says the average rent is $400/month for a one bedroom apartment. I’ve never seen those rent prices in my area, but can assure you, if they’re here, they’re in the slums. At any rate, if that’s the average – for a person making $21,000/year that’s a HUGE chunk of money going to a roof and 4 walls. I’m sorry, but that’s NOT good and I don’t understand how anyone could think that it is – and at the heart of it definitely a cause for anxiety.


My daughter is 19 and in college. AFTER scholarships, she will come out of college with a debt of $76,000. That is being on an accelerated program and graduating in 3 years. She is going into a great field where she will make good money. But tell me that accumulating $76,000 in debt before she even gets started is #1 a good thing and #2 wouldn’t be cause for anxiety? If I had $76,000 in debt, I would be crapping my pants daily. Let alone at the age of 21.


And to address your point, I have very little debt and we do fine. I have worked 2 jobs MANY times in my life and do what needs to be done for my family to survive and thrive. That’s never been a question for me. Sure, I got through it. But again – it caused a lot of anxiety for me during the times it was happening.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Student loans can certainly cost more than a house, so of course they're going to be more than a mortgage payment at times. But I mean, you know that going in. 

This is for another thread, but I have written elsewhere I think the whole college system needs serious reform (just as healthcare system does) and don't think we ought to throw money at it until it's been regulated and redundancy stopped (taking things you already took in high school over again) and stops misrepresenting that all graduates will get great jobs.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Student loans can certainly cost more than a house, so of course they're going to be more than a mortgage payment at times. But I mean, you know that going in.
> 
> This is for another thread, but I have written elsewhere I think the whole college system needs serious reform (just as healthcare system does) and don't think we ought to throw money at it until it's been regulated and redundancy stopped (taking things you already took in high school over again) and stops misrepresenting that all graduates will get great jobs.



So the answer is – you take the student loan to get a “better” job and then end up paying out the nose for it. OR you skip college and take the $13/hour job. Either way – you’re going to live in poverty. That hardly seems like a good idea of the American Way. I have a good job. At a good company. I don’t have a degree. The position I have now would require a degree at entry level. I got lucky enough that I was given the opportunity for experience years ago. I’m 42 and now have 17 years experience in my field. That also doesn’t guarantee though that should I lose my job and apply elsewhere, that I wouldn’t be passed over for someone with a degree. On the same token, since I didn’t have a degree, I was also paid much less to do the same work for many years until I got a boss that saw my worth and has raised my pay roughly $12,000 in 2 years.

In essence, I worked my butt off for years at a lower pay. A person with a degree could do the same job as me, making more, but paying out the nose for their student loan. Down the road, we both end up in the same boat financially once my wage gets increased or their student loan is paid off. But in the meantime, we’re both making less money (me because I’m paid less, the person with a degree bringing in more $ but still struggling because of a huge loan payment). At the heart of it all – we BOTH have anxiety. Their anxiety is just a different anxiety than mine.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

As far as student loans costing more than a house - my daughter will end up with $76,000 in debt. A $76,000 house in this area will be a very manageable mortgage payment, but it's not going to get you much house and it will not be in a very good area. The house I was looking at purchasing when I was leaving my husband was $75,000. Beautiful home, not the greatest area. Unfortunately, that was my price range. But I was trading off what I could afford for an area that could have been bad for my safety being a single woman living alone. My mortgage would have been around $500/month if I remember right. To rent, to be in a decent area that was safe, I would have easily had to pay $800-$1000/month and even then, it wouldn't have been the "desirable" areas in town. I'm not an elitist. I can do without a lot. I drive a simple car and don't buy flashy things. But SAFETY is a huge concern.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

I think today we have a lot people with self diagnosed psychological issues. They decide they have anxiety when really they have some stress and uncertainty in their life and they have never learned how to deal with things on their own. So they say I have anxiety and then curl up into a ball on the floor of their childhood bedroom while mommy and daddy take care of them. 

Then there is real professionally diagnosed anxiety, which can be crippling even for a well rounded self sufficient individual. I have seen both and the difference is obvious.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I think we also need to keep in mind, that it probably appears that more people have anxiety these days or that people with anxiety are younger, because we now diagnose people. Back in the day, if someone had anxiety, depression, adhd, etc. they were just labeled as “nervous” or “had a touch of the sad” or “hyper” and were just told to deal with it. I was an INCREDIBLY hyper child. I got in trouble and spanked ALL THE TIME for “acting out” or “not being able to keep my mouth shut”, etc. My son has ADHD. Knowing the symptoms now of ADHD, that’s probably exactly what I had as a kid. Trust me, I didn’t want to be in trouble all the time, but I never really had any control of how I acted. My brain was a mile a minute (still is most days), I could be told to do something and I wouldn’t even hear it. Concentrating on anything was impossible. But 30 years ago? I was just a hyper kid who didn’t listen.


So many of the things that happened back in the day weren’t recognized as a mental illness. I don’t think that means necessarily that more people have them. People are actually just getting diagnosed now. My grandfather 110% had anxiety. Did he ever go to a doctor for it? Nope. Because men should just suck it up and pull up their boot straps, get over it and move on. While that may all be well and good in theory – my grandfather was a disgusting, horrible man who may have been different if he could’ve gotten the help he needed. He went to work every day, he took care of his family, he paid the bills, he worked his fingers to the bone. Great right? On the surface sure. How he treated his wife and children would tell a different story.


My mom 110% has anxiety. However, in the same vein, she wasn’t diagnosed until much later in life. Mom still to this day works her butt off and she is 70 years old. Also in the same thought that she should just deal and cope and move on with life and work hard and get the job done. Maybe if her mental illness wasn’t taboo to diagnose and treat – I would’ve had a different childhood.


I was diagnosed with panic disorder and generalized anxiety disorder at the age of 30. It took that long because no one ever told me it was ok to talk to anyone about it. I didn’t want to be seen as crazy or “mentally ill”. Best believe my children paid the price when they were younger, having a mom who had a mental illness she was scared to talk to anyone about, let alone go to a doctor for help. Trust and believe I pulled up my big girl panties, worked my behind off, never call off, did what I needed to do every single day – but the people in my life paid for it because I had a mental illness there was a stigma attached to to fix.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I think we also need to keep in mind, that it probably appears that more people have anxiety these days or that people with anxiety are younger, because we now diagnose people. Back in the day, if someone had anxiety, depression, adhd, etc. they were just labeled as “nervous” or “had a touch of the sad” or “hyper” and were just told to deal with it.


Which was the point of my post on the diagnosis phenomenon. Same goes with autism and a host of other issues for which we previously had no name or no good diagnostic criteria. What often looks like an epidemic is merely labeling that which we always had before by another name.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think today we have a lot people with self diagnosed psychological issues. They decide they have anxiety when really they have some stress and uncertainty in their life and they have never learned how to deal with things on their own. So they say I have anxiety and then curl up into a ball on the floor of their childhood bedroom while mommy and daddy take care of them.
> 
> Then there is real professionally diagnosed anxiety, which can be crippling even for a well rounded self sufficient individual. I have seen both and the difference is obvious.


I think you are right on the nose.

Anxiety isn't the same as just not wanting to do something.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LosingHim said:


> So the answer is – you take the student loan to get a “better” job and then end up paying out the nose for it. OR you skip college and take the $13/hour job. Either way – you’re going to live in poverty. That hardly seems like a good idea of the American Way. I have a good job. At a good company. I don’t have a degree. The position I have now would require a degree at entry level. I got lucky enough that I was given the opportunity for experience years ago. I’m 42 and now have 17 years experience in my field. That also doesn’t guarantee though that should I lose my job and apply elsewhere, that I wouldn’t be passed over for someone with a degree. On the same token, since I didn’t have a degree, I was also paid much less to do the same work for many years until I got a boss that saw my worth and has raised my pay roughly $12,000 in 2 years.
> 
> In essence, I worked my butt off for years at a lower pay. A person with a degree could do the same job as me, making more, but paying out the nose for their student loan. Down the road, we both end up in the same boat financially once my wage gets increased or their student loan is paid off. But in the meantime, we’re both making less money (me because I’m paid less, the person with a degree bringing in more $ but still struggling because of a huge loan payment). At the heart of it all – we BOTH have anxiety. Their anxiety is just a different anxiety than mine.


Colleges are in it to make money. We need to stop requiring college degree or certification for jobs that you can train on the job for, which are many. There's a lot of reform that needs to be done, but charging everyone higher taxes isn't the answer. People make their own choices and commitments.

Did your daughter work in high school? Lots of people in my school days worked after school and had summer jobs to save for cars or college.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think today we have a lot people with self diagnosed psychological issues. They decide they have anxiety when really they have some stress and uncertainty in their life and they have never learned how to deal with things on their own. So they say I have anxiety and then curl up into a ball on the floor of their childhood bedroom while mommy and daddy take care of them.
> 
> Then there is real professionally diagnosed anxiety, which can be crippling even for a well rounded self sufficient individual. I have seen both and the difference is obvious.





DownByTheRiver said:


> I think you are right on the nose.
> 
> Anxiety isn't the same as just not wanting to do something.


I think anxiety is a normal emotion like elation or sadness. The article in the OP(did no one else read it?) uses responses to the question “how often did you feel nervous during the past 30 days”, which doesn't imply any disorder. Later, it states:

although technically synonymous with “anxiety,” “nervousness” is one expression of anxiety and neither encompasses all types of anxiety nor is reflective of a clinically diagnosed anxiety disorder.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> Her anxiety revolves around feeling so different from everyone else around her and she does not feel secure in such an environment because the last time she felt that way all her friends dropped her like a hot potato and were quite mean to her. She no longer feels secure about herself because of this. And honestly, there are no more groups of friends for her to jump to to make things better. Hence my statement that I'm hoping with a wider pool of candidates for friends she can link up with some more likeminded people and gain some confidence in herself again. Before this all started she was a VERY secure kid. It's sad to see the change in her quite frankly.


I’ve seen this in my two daughters, now 17 and 21. I’ve seen it in myself.

I’ve tried to convey to them both how similar I view myself, looking back. I had no choice about where I grew up; it was a “normal” small town, and I was definitely different from my peers in ways that effected me growing up.

I see now that going out into the world (college, and life after), I really had much more of a chance to find people that felt like a better fit, who could like and respect me while seeing who I truly was — and vice-a-versa. It wasn’t instant change in my experience, but eventually I found my niche in this world, and discovered I like some of those things about myself that had seemed to be the source of so much stress.

Maybe your daughter could consider that perhaps she feels the disconnect and aloneness now, not because there is anything “wrong” with her. But instead because of the best within her — she has values that matter greatly to her, she’s not vulnerable to the easier and less mature ways of being (transforming away a part of herself to fit in). She just hasn’t had much of a chance yet to meet people more like her. And those peers that have rejected her — they’re just imperfect human beings struggling in their own ways to find a way to fit in this world, and aren’t really in a position of wisdom to judge her in any meaningful way; their rejections and cruelness are 100% about them and what they are seeking for themselves, and 0% informative about her.

I like the mantra “It gets better”. Made famous in a somewhat different context, but relevant to a lot of things we experience finding our way to being happier adult human beings.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I graduated in 1989 with a grand total of $3,000 debt.


Exactly the same here. Weird.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Colleges are in it to make money. We need to stop requiring college degree or certification for jobs that you can train on the job for, which are many. There's a lot of reform that needs to be done, but charging everyone higher taxes isn't the answer. People make their own choices and commitments.
> 
> Did your daughter work in high school? Lots of people in my school days worked after school and had summer jobs to save for cars or college.


I fully understand that colleges have professors and other staff to pay, along with upkeep of the facilities, etc. But also, given the comments above about getting a college degree for $3000, there's definitely some reform that is needed.

My daughter worked from the time she was 15 up until her first semester of college. We did allow her not to work during her first semester as this was her first time away from home (an hour and a half away) and we didn't know how overwhelming college would be for her taking a full class load and the rest that comes with it. After she adjusted to the first semester, she began working again, but then got sent home due to Covid. As with most people, she was on strict lockdown for a couple of months at my home, but once things settled down a bit, she started working again here until she returned to college in August. Once she returned, she transferred to the same chain business where she goes to college. Now she's back home again, again working for the same chain here in town. She's also looking to pick up a second job where her brother works (he's almost 17 and has been working since he was 16 - also a slow start working due to the pandemic). She graduated from high school with a 4.3 GPA and state honors, so she got some scholarships, along with graduating with enough college credits to technically be a sophomore her first year of college. She's also made the Deans List at college each semester since she's been enrolled. She works her behind off in all facets and is no slouch.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I think it is fascinating how people not in a situation, or even in a generation can diagnose them all as not really having the issues they say they have.

I saw a post today talking about how the adage "As you age you become more conservative" is not really true. The truth is that "As you age, you generate wealth, and as you become more wealthy you become more conservative". However, the generations after X, are not getting wealthier, they are getting poorer as costs rise and wages don't.

If you think the current progressive/liberal views are a problem, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Back to anxiety, the world today is much more daunting for a young person trying to launch. If you are unable to understand that, because it is absolutely a fact, then there is no point in talking about the anxiety you discount or any other opinions you have on it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

She'll be all right once the pandemic is over. She's making enough to pay her debt off eventually and she probably ought to work two jobs just a big one in a little one before she starts having kids or whatever.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I fully understand that colleges have professors and other staff to pay, along with upkeep of the facilities, etc. But also, given the comments above about getting a college degree for $3000, there's definitely some reform that is needed.


I got out of college with $3,000 of debt. That was NOT the total cost of my education by any stretch.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> She'll be all right once the pandemic is over. She's making enough to pay her debt off eventually and she probably ought to work two jobs just a big one in a little one before she starts having kids or whatever.



The kid has an amazing life plan, that she wrote out when she was a mere 12 years old. I’m telling you, this kid is going places. She’s got beauty, brains, drive, the whole 9. Kids are not part of her plan until she’s out of college at least a year or 2 and a good career under her belt. It may be even later, as once she’s done in college, she plans to try to get into the FBI which could mean another 2-4 years of training with the program she wants to go into. Proud of this kid is an understatement.


----------



## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Back to anxiety, the world today is much more daunting for a young person trying to launch. If you are unable to understand that, because it is absolutely a fact, then there is no point in talking about the anxiety you discount or any other opinions you have on it.


I absolutely agree with this. I pray for my kids because I know I would be struggling in their shoes.



DownByTheRiver said:


> She'll be all right once the pandemic is over. She's making enough to pay her debt off eventually and she probably ought to work two jobs just a big one in a little one before she starts having kids or whatever.


My niece graduated as a nurse. She had scholarships and other financial aid. She's got about $30,000 school loan debt after all the financial help she had.

She works as a nurse and she's back at home until she pays off the debt. Getting married? Having children? Paying rent, buying a new car? That's not happening any time soon. She's 23. I can't imagine myself at 23 with a $30,000 debt on my shoulders!!

Compared to my generation, there's no way they can launch at the same age we launched. Cost of living is high in my city. I feel very anxious about my kids, I'm just not showing it to them. I'm going to fake it until they make it (that's what my and previous generations did, the faking I mean.)


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LosingHim said:


> The kid has an amazing life plan, that she wrote out when she was a mere 12 years old. I’m telling you, this kid is going places. She’s got beauty, brains, drive, the whole 9. Kids are not part of her plan until she’s out of college at least a year or 2 and a good career under her belt. It may be even later, as once she’s done in college, she plans to try to get into the FBI which could mean another 2-4 years of training with the program she wants to go into. Proud of this kid is an understatement.


Glad she's got a plan. The FBI loves young recruits. The key for her is to put off having kids for a while and get her student debt paid off and her career established.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I'm sorry but I just don't see how things are any harder now then they were when I got out of high school. All I see are a bunch of young people who lament the fact that they cannot live beyond their means without consequence.

Cost of college seems high? Don't go. Or if you do go, Be choosey about which college you attend. People want to attend these high dollar universities with their beautiful campuses and the clout that comes with having a degree at such a place. They get their degree in critical race theory and then wonder why they can't get a job with it. Where I live, you can get a job as an RN after 2 years of community college, or at least you could when I last checked. That barely costs anything, and the lowest wage you can possibly earn in my area is $26 an hour with benefits and plenty of opportunities for OT.

I hear people complaining about the price of their car payment too. Well, don't buy a new car. We didn't buy new cars when I got out of school, most of my friends and all bought piles of junk for a couple grand that were good enough to get us to work and the extra money we saved from no car payment allowed us to fix our cars up nicely, which was a cool thing to do back in the late 90's. Nah, people want those new cars though, and since they have bad credit they get those high interest rates that come with them. Smart plan!

My ex GF was renting a 2 bedroom house in the city near here for $760 a month just last year. Neighborhood was safe enough. There is a Target in the same town that pays $15.00 per hour starting wage, so if you wanna get out on your own, that's around $400 per week after taxes. Get a roommate and that $760 a month in rent ain't so bad. All my friends and I had roommates when we got out of our parents' houses back in the day. I shared a place with several people until I could afford solo living.

My point is, it's all doable. None of this stuff is rocket science. We live in a rich, prosperous country and despite the complaints from spoiled people, we have it good here. It's really not hard to get by here, at least not where I live.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> My point is, it's all doable. None of this stuff is rocket science. We live in a rich, prosperous country and despite the complaints from spoiled people, we have it good here. It's really not hard to get by here, at least not where I live.


It is doable, but let's take a test case.

The local state university is where I got my degree, and it is good enough for anyone who has no aspirations for a Supreme Court appointment.

Estimated tuition plus books for next year is ~$15,000 for a resident. That includes costs for transportation but not living expenses. You are going to have to get back and forth from school - we have a robust public transportation system here, but I don't live near enough a transit line to avoid driving, and it still costs money. If you are lucky enough to be able to live at home while attending, let's just assume that your rent and living expenses are covered. Holding down a minimum wage job for 3 months of the summer will get you back about $6,000. You may be able to supplement you income during the school year, but I graduated with a STEM major that itself required 40 hrs/week of homework, and I am personally of the opinion that you get the best bang for your education dollar when it is your only true obligation. 

So someone living at home getting a 4 year computer science degree is going to have a debt on the order of $40,000 by attending the cheapest alternative local institution granting their degree. Many don't graduate from that program in 4 years because of the demands. One could offset some of that debt with a part-time job during the school year, but this is going to impact their education. Regardless, a bill of multiple 10's of thousands of dollars is going to be owed by anyone making the most cost effective and rational choices available. 

Now if you want to qualify for federal aid and your parents will not give you any (which I have lived) regardless of their income, you have to become financially independent by living on your own. So you may now add in the cost of rent, utilities, and food to your college bill. 

So while I agree it's doable, let's not minimize the effort involved. Now with a good major, they'll be more than able to pay back that debt, but nonetheless, they start out life in a sizable hole.


----------



## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

While its doable for many, that effort is WAY on the outside possibility for others.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

If you feel college is too expensive, then don't go. Or go to a community college, or a cheaper university. Sitting around lamenting the price of something you do not need isn't exactly making a case for how difficult life is.


----------



## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Obviously some are able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps... kudos to them

Not everyone has the same capability or ability without help. 

Quoting an example of some people that are able to, does not make it a rule.


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Enigma32 said:


> If you feel college is too expensive, then don't go. Or go to a community college, or a cheaper university. Sitting around lamenting the price of something you do not need isn't exactly making a case for how difficult life is.


There are always technical schools. Most kids that learn a specific trade make more money that a lot of kids with a four year degree and have no debt to repay. It is an option available to avoid going into debt. The technical school in the town I live in offers certificate programs, diploma programs and/or degrees in every field you can imagine from healthcare to aviation, and everything in between.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

It has nothing to do with bootstraps. If you think college is too expensive, don't go. Plenty of trades are looking for workers. If a particular university is too expensive, choose another. If a particular degree is too expensive, choose another. None of this stuff is a necessity. If the argument becomes people just wanting everything in life given to them without any real hardship then you know things are pretty easy.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> If you feel college is too expensive, then don't go. Or go to a community college, or a cheaper university. Sitting around lamenting the price of something you do not need isn't exactly making a case for how difficult life is.


The numbers quoted are for the absolute cheapest four year program available to someone living in-state in my area. A four year degree in my area of interest, in the Silicon Forest, is an absolute requirement for a job. We don't consider anyone without one. For someone with this interest, there is no cheaper alternative. 

It leads to a career that "requires" me to pay more in federal income taxes than a family of 4 makes in an entire year at the Federal poverty line. It's worth every damned penny in future returns. It's the best kind of debt you can possibly accrue. Nonetheless, to stay on topic for this conversation, taking on 5 figures of debt to get through college ought to raise anyone's anxiety level.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

attheend02 said:


> While its doable for many, that effort is WAY on the outside possibility for others.


That's why I am a huge supported of federal aid in education (with some stipulations). The US government has probably recovered from me in taxes 100x the money they gave me to go to school. It's ROI that you can't get anywhere else.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Ok, so you get an expensive degree that can then lead you to a job where you make boatloads of money. I fail to see how this situation should cause a lot of anxiety. And even then, like I said, you can do something else with your life if you choose.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Enigma32 said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't see how things are any harder now then they were when I got out of high school. All I see are a bunch of young people who lament the fact that they cannot live beyond their means without consequence.


I haven't seen that ITT. I've seen people complaining about the alleged anxiety of others, which seems like an odd thing to get angry about, and some others offering explanations of why they might be anxious.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't see how things are any harder now then they were when I got out of high school. All I see are a bunch of young people who lament the fact that they cannot live beyond their means without consequence.
> 
> Cost of college seems high? Don't go. Or if you do go, Be choosey about which college you attend. People want to attend these high dollar universities with their beautiful campuses and the clout that comes with having a degree at such a place. They get their degree in critical race theory and then wonder why they can't get a job with it. Where I live, you can get a job as an RN after 2 years of community college, or at least you could when I last checked. That barely costs anything, and the lowest wage you can possibly earn in my area is $26 an hour with benefits and plenty of opportunities for OT.
> 
> ...


I agree. And when you're young (except during covid, of course), that's when it's easy to find roommates and stand to live with them. It's also when it's easiest to find employment. It's also when you have the energy to work two jobs if you need to. 

My least paying job was when I moved to Dallas. In my home state, I had a good paying record store manager job. Cost of living was lower and it was enough. Then I had to start all over at minimum wage in Dallas to get started there. I had never had to work for minimum wage before. So that's when I started also working my days off. I got a job riding motorcycle escort for funerals, wide loads, motorcades. I have always been able to find a one or two day job to accommodate me. No, you won't make much money at those small part-time jobs, but even if it's only $8 an hour, 15 hours, it's $5000 a year more than you'd make otherwise. 

Once I got out of music and started working at home, I also kept small part-time jobs on the side, one to get me out of the house and two, because self-employment taxes eat you alive, so I'd have a lot of tax taken out of those jobs to help offset. I have always been able to find what I needed when others would have said, No one will hire you to just work two days a week or whatever it is. I always put it right in a cover letter. The second job I still have now, I just sent to local places in that specific little industry. He interviewed me and told me that he wasn't looking for anyone, but his best man had been complaining he needed some help, and since I only asked for 15-20 hours a week, he figured he could afford me where he couldn't afford another full-time person. 

I've had jobs before sitting in a model home while the salesman working for the builder played golf or took a day off. I was able to bring my work I do at home there and my laptop and do both jobs at once. 

Too many people assume no one will accept their terms. I've found the opposite to be true. But you have to put those down either in writing on application or at first interview. You can't change horses midstream as easily.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SpinyNorman said:


> I haven't seen that ITT. I've seen people complaining about the alleged anxiety of others, which seems like an odd thing to get angry about, and some others offering explanations of why they might be anxious.


I am the father of two twenty-somethings, and I have some exposure to their group of friends. None of them are doing any of this. My son just bought his first house. My daughter is shacking up with her Intel employed boyfriend in their townhouse. My son's good friend from high school is a police officer who also just moved into their dream home with kid. 

Overall, they seem to be living their lives like every generation before them. And full disclosure - my daughter is on medication for anxiety. But given her schizophrenic grandmother and bipolar uncle, in our house, we consider that a win.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Cletus said:


> That's why I am a huge supported of federal aid in education (with some stipulations). The US government has probably recovered from me in taxes 100x the money they gave me to go to school. It's ROI that you can't get anywhere else.


That ROI is hugely misleading and supported by studies with poor methodology, almost like they're trying to sell people on something. Hmm.

The ROI on a college education is certainly positive. The ROI used to be higher back when fewer people attended college. There's a fly in the ointment though. The ROI on education falls dramatically once a study controls for IQ. It seems that the majority of ROI on education is actually attributable to IQ. The residual ROI on education comes mostly from learning marketable skills, being an engineer, being a lawyer, being a physician. That degree in Elizabethan Lesbian Dance Poetry has zero ROI on education.

Too bad it is illegal for employers to use IQ testing in their hiring decisions, that one practice alone could save people 4 years of lifetime and 4 years of expensive tuition.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> That ROI is hugely misleading and supported by studies with poor methodology, almost like they're trying to sell people on something. Hmm.
> 
> The ROI on a college education is certainly positive. The ROI used to be higher back when fewer people attended college. There's a fly in the ointment though. The ROI on education falls dramatically once a study controls for IQ. It seems that the majority of ROI on education is actually attributable to IQ. The residual ROI on education comes mostly from learning marketable skills, being an engineer, being a lawyer, being a physician. That degree in Elizabethan Lesbian Dance Poetry has zero ROI on education.


Not sure how to parse this, but if you are suggesting a liberal arts degree offers no ROI, that doesn't seem to be true.

"A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million."
liberal arts education article


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SpinyNorman said:


> Not sure how to parse this, but if you are suggesting a liberal arts degree offers no ROI, that doesn't seem to be true.
> 
> "A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million."
> liberal arts education article


What are we going to do about your clearly inadequate IQ, Spiny?


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

SpinyNorman said:


> Not sure how to parse this, but if you are suggesting a liberal arts degree offers no ROI, that doesn't seem to be true.
> 
> "A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million."
> liberal arts education article


Control for IQ and the ROI plummets. What an employer wants is an employee who can come up with appropriate solutions to novel problems. The employer can train the new employee in the rote aspects of the job, so college education isn't critical in many jobs, but when something out of the ordinary happens and the employee has to deal with it, that's where the college education is thought to be important, but what's really going on is the employee is relying on his intelligence rather than on his education, to think his way through this novel problem and devise a solution which is supported by his boss.

The only place where education content leads to a higher ROI is where the education content is a skill that the labor market desires. If you study political science and you learned all about African politics or Totalitarian Regimes, sure you're an educated person, but the content of that education is not going to earn you a nickel in your job as a district manager for a restaurant company.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, there is other kinds of testing. I took a big weird test for some employer 15 years ago and he said I was the only person who aced it. It was more about paying attention and being observant, I think. 

But just because someone has a high IQ doesn't make them a good employee by any means. One of my old best friends has a very high MENSA IQ, but she's a worthless employee because she's also a narcissist who doesn't understand why her priorities aren't everyone else's Number 1 priority. She really doesn't. So she just sneaks and comes and goes as she please. And she was almost sued for stealing proprietary property once too. She's a nightmare employee. 

My other friend who is in MENSA is a good reliable employee.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But just because someone has a high IQ doesn't make them a good employee by any means. One of my old best friends has a very high MENSA IQ, but she's a worthless employee because she's also a narcissist who doesn't understand why her priorities aren't everyone else's Number 1 priority. She really doesn't. So she just sneaks and comes and goes as she please. And she was almost sued for stealing proprietary property once too. She's a nightmare employee.
> 
> My other friend who is in MENSA is a good reliable employee.


The very same argument can be applied to a college graduate.

A 1-hour IQ test has actual better predictive power on job performance than a 4 year college, liberal arts, college degree.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think you missed where I demonstrated that high IQ does not a good employee make. There are a lot of great employees with average IQs and even below out there. It depends more on their ethics than anything.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think you missed where I demonstrated that high IQ does not a good employee make. There are a lot of great employees with average IQs and even below out there. It depends more on their ethics than anything.


I think you also missed where I noted that being a college graduate does not guarantee that you will make a good employee.

No one is arguing that only high IQ people are good at their jobs. You don't need a 115 IQ to perform job X if an IQ of 100 is sufficient, so all the employer needs to do is screen for applicants with IQs of 100 and above. Then apply other filters. That IQ screen is identical to job requirements which demand a college degree but don't actually have job duties which rely on college learned material.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I just think ethics is way more important than IQ. How hard you try. How reliable you are. Most jobs don't take a lot of brains.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I just think ethics is way more important than IQ. How hard you try. How reliable you are. Most jobs don't take a lot of brains.


Get those Mensa people out of your mental model, we're not talking about them. 

Most aspects of jobs are pretty routine, you can be trained in the routine matters. You simply need some base level of intelligence and education to perform those routine tasks. By education I mean the standard stuff, maybe you have to write some reports, so you need to read and write English. Maybe you need to do some math or some Excel spreadsheet work. You need basic math. Probably you don't need to know calculus. 

Now crap hits the fan. Something unexpected happens and your routine is disrupted and your training doesn't cover what you should do. This is what employers are really paying you for, not the routine aspects of your job. Your reliability and work ethic don't give you an edge here. Your ability to think and devise new solutions is where you earn your money.

Where work ethic and reliability come into the picture is in inter-personal competition - how you perform when compared to the other people in the same job and that's only if there is opportunity for you to differentiate yourself from your fellow employees.

It really doesn't matter "how had you try" if your hard trying results in poor decisions compared to the lazy-ass guy in the same job who comes up with good decisions which save/earn the company money.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Doesn't matter how smart somebody is if they have no intention of using their powers for good.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Control for IQ and the ROI plummets. What an employer wants is an employee who can come up with appropriate solutions to novel problems. The employer can train the new employee in the rote aspects of the job, so college education isn't critical in many jobs, but when something out of the ordinary happens and the employee has to deal with it, that's where the college education is thought to be important, but what's really going on is the employee is relying on his intelligence rather than on his education, to think his way through this novel problem and devise a solution which is supported by his boss.


Maybe, but I didn't see any evidence of such.


> The only place where education content leads to a higher ROI is where the education content is a skill that the labor market desires. If you study political science and you learned all about African politics or Totalitarian Regimes, sure you're an educated person, but the content of that education is not going to earn you a nickel in your job as a district manager for a restaurant company.


If you go to the Georgetown link I posted, figure two shows that median ROI for liberal arts colleges is actually higher than at Engineering & Technology-Related Schools


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

SpinyNorman said:


> Maybe, but I didn't see any evidence of such.
> 
> If you go to the Georgetown link I posted, figure two shows that median ROI for liberal arts colleges is actually higher than at Engineering & Technology-Related Schools


You know, this paper from Chevrolet shows that Chevy trucks are better than Ford trucks. 

Here's a paper on this topic - Inequality and Ability. 



> Using data from the NLS, Murnane et al. (1995) report that basic cognitive skills learned prior to high school had a much larger impact on the wages for 24-year-old men and women in 1986 than in 1978 in the United States. The cognitive measures they use are basic skills such as following directions, facility with fractions and decimals, and interpretation of line graphs. In other research, Ferguson (1993) finds* that adding basic skills into the wage regression wipes out the estimated growth in the return to schooling during the 1980s in the United States.* Using the AFQT score as a measure of ability, Ferguson shows that the return to basic skills rises during the 1980s and converges within all education groups.4


So what does that all mean? Those "cognitive skills" you "learned" BEFORE you entered high school have become increasingly RESPONSIBLE for wage growth over time. Secondly, once you factor these "cognitive skills" into your analysis the wage growth that was attributable to schooling for the entire previous decade gets wiped out.



> In contrast to the literature summarized in Section 2, these results are the first to show that a measure for mental ability is becoming increasingly important within sectors over time.* The addition of IQ also serves to wipe out the limited increase in the return to education in the professional sector*.


So, if you find yourself in advertising, management, marketing, etc. most of what the employer rewards you for is your smarts, not your education. Your measured education was merely serving as a proxy for your smarts, ie. you have to be smart enough to get accepted to college, you have to be a bit smarter to be accepted to graduate school, so hiring the graduate school applicant over the college applicant results in hiring a smarter employee. Same with promotion preferences. Once you control for intelligence, the actual reward for more education plummets.



> Table 7 presents the main estimates for the third specification, which includes IQ in both the utility and wage functions for each sector. Similar to Table 6, the latent distributions of unobservable ability are spreading out in all three sectors, but these increases are almost completely explained by the increasing importance of the unobserved general skill rather than the unobserved sector-specific skill. In fact, the variance of the unobserved sector-specific skill now decreases in both the professional and service sectors, while increasing very slightly in the blue-collar sector. *The addition of IQ into the analysis reduces the returns to education, particularly for 1992, so that there is virtually no appreciable increase in the return to education in either sector after controlling for IQ. *The increasing return to education found in Table 6 is now picked up by the increasing return to IQ in the professional and service sectors.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> You know, this paper from Chevrolet shows that Chevy trucks are better than Ford trucks.
> 
> Here's a paper on this topic - Inequality and Ability.
> 
> So what does that all mean? Those "cognitive skills" you "learned" BEFORE you entered high school have become increasingly RESPONSIBLE for wage growth over time. Secondly, once you factor these "cognitive skills" into your analysis the wage growth that was attributable to schooling for the entire previous decade gets wiped out.


Understood, but this does not show that a liberal arts degree has no ROI. Unless LA was invented after the 70s and accounts for all of the growth in education in the 80s.


> So, if you find yourself in advertising, management, marketing, etc. most of what the employer rewards you for is your smarts, not your education. Your measured education was merely serving as a proxy for your smarts, ie. you have to be smart enough to get accepted to college, you have to be a bit smarter to be accepted to graduate school, so hiring the graduate school applicant over the college applicant results in hiring a smarter employee. Same with promotion preferences. Once you control for intelligence, the actual reward for more education plummets.


I didn't see how to read the whole article, your quote mentions "unobservable ability", it isn't intuitive how one would control for that.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

SpinyNorman said:


> Understood, but this does not show that a liberal arts degree has no ROI. Unless LA was invented after the 70s and accounts for all of the growth in education in the 80s.
> I didn't see how to read the whole article, your quote mentions "unobservable ability", it isn't intuitive how one would control for that.


We're juggling many balls in the air when we try to understand the full scope of this issue. Engineering careers suffer from some limitations - they top out in terms of promotions and, in many organizations, there are not part of the line organization, instead are support functions, this means career and earnings growth can be higher is non-engineering sections of an organization.

That Georgetown link summary focused on Liberal Arts Colleges and right there in the 3rd paragraph I break out laughing. They're highlighting the exemplary performance of Harvey Mudd College, it's a freaking ENGINEERING school, not a Liberal Arts College. Oh Brother. Then they pay particular attention to the top 47 liberal arts colleges. Yeah, very highly selective and by what criteria are they selecting their students, GPA and SAT, proxies for intelligence, so no shock that high IQ students do well in terms of earning power once in the workforce, aided by brand recognition of graduating from a highly selective college.

Let me ask you, last time you were in a Starbucks, did you see any electrical engineering graduates working as baristas? Lots of liberal arts graduates staff the counters at Starbucks. The fact that graduates of highly selective liberal arts colleges are recruited into training programs at major banks and insurance companies is not because those firms desire the education content learned from taking history classes and sociology and Women's Studies and Black Studies and other grievance-studies courses, they're hiring those graduates because they were smart enough to be admitted into highly selective liberal arts colleges.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> We're juggling many balls in the air when we try to understand the full scope of this issue. Engineering careers suffer from some limitations - they top out in terms of promotions and, in many organizations, there are not part of the line organization, instead are support functions, this means career and earnings growth can be higher is non-engineering sections of an organization.


I read an article that claimed technical degrees pay best early in a career, but many find themselves unemployed in middle age, whereas the opposite is true for LA majors. Sounds plausible, though I don't have any data.


> That Georgetown link summary focused on Liberal Arts Colleges and right there in the 3rd paragraph I break out laughing. They're highlighting the exemplary performance of Harvey Mudd College, it's a freaking ENGINEERING school, *not a Liberal Arts College.*


"We’re also unique because we are a liberal arts college."
Harvey Mudd's Webpage


> Oh Brother. Then they pay particular attention to the top 47 liberal arts colleges. Yeah, very highly selective and by what criteria are they selecting their students, GPA and SAT, proxies for intelligence, so no shock that high IQ students do well in terms of earning power once in the workforce, *aided by brand recognition* *of graduating from a highly selective college.*


 How did you determine brand recognition aided them as opposed to the education they received?


> Let me ask you, last time you were in a Starbucks, did you see any electrical engineering graduates working as baristas? Lots of liberal arts graduates staff the counters at Starbucks.


I have to compare your unsubstantiated claim to statistics on ROI that seem inconsistent w/ working at Starbucks


> The fact that graduates of highly selective liberal arts colleges are recruited into training programs at major banks and insurance companies is not because those firms desire the education content learned from taking history classes and sociology and Women's Studies and Black Studies and other grievance-studies courses, they're hiring those graduates because they were smart enough to be admitted into highly selective liberal arts colleges.


This doesn't sound crazy, but neither does the traditional explanation.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

SpinyNorman said:


> I read an article that claimed technical degrees pay best early in a career, but many find themselves unemployed in middle age, whereas the opposite is true for LA majors. Sounds plausible, though I don't have any data.


NOT liberal arts majors, graduates of selective liberal arts colleges. Liberal Arts is CONTENT, being a graduate of a selective liberal arts college is about YOU, how intelligent and accomplished you were in order to get admitted to a very highly selective school with a low admission rate which selects from a pool of very highly qualified students. Absolutely these people do very well in life.

For engineers, they start off with a bang but their upside is limited, so for those who love the engineering work, they're soon going to price themselves out of competition with younger people, so their escape route is to migrate over to management and that opens up more income growth for them.



> How did you determine brand recognition aided them as opposed to the education they received?


1st, Because a number of big firms recruit exclusively from top tier institutions.
2nd, It's illegal to use IQ tests for hiring, but the Supreme Court has allowed firms to discriminate in hiring based on education level and quality of institution, so firms simply use quality of university as a proxy for IQ of student.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> NOT liberal arts majors, graduates of selective liberal arts colleges. Liberal Arts is CONTENT, being a graduate of a selective liberal arts college is about YOU, how intelligent and accomplished you were in order to get admitted to a very highly selective school with a low admission rate which selects from a pool of very highly qualified students. Absolutely these people do very well in life.
> 
> For engineers, they start off with a bang but their upside is limited, so for those who love the engineering work, they're soon going to price themselves out of competition with younger people, so their escape route is to migrate over to management and that opens up more income growth for them.
> 
> ...


This is a sensible theory, but so is that the education is valued. I'm not saying I know you're wrong, I'm saying I don't know that you're right.


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I think this video clip will answer your question....


----------

