# What Happened to Us?



## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

I am new to this forum, so I should briefly tell you about me. I am 49 year old male and will be celebrating 28 years of marriage this coming August. My wife is also 48, and we have 5 children, ages 26 to 15. (Two of which still live at home.)
I am retired from a big city police dept. after 22 years of service, and currently enjoy being a SAHD, restoring our 100+ yr. old home, and landscaping the large yard. My wife works as a nurse at a local hospital. 
My problem and concern is one that has been growing for several years now, and I realize and want this to change.

My wife and I have not had sex in over two months, and she doesn't seem to care if we ever do. I understand that we are no longer in our 20's and full of hormonal lust for each other, but we aren't exactly getting around with walkers or canes yet either. 

Yesterday, my wife, 17 year old daughter, and I were at the store looking at swimsuits for my daughter. My daughter was looking over the bikinis, and my wife said, "No, those aren't appropriate, they don't cover enough." Which caused me some pause. I didn't say anything until today, when I saw my wife watching, "The Evolution of the Bikini" video on the internet.
The internet video portrayal of the bikini was one of labeling the swimsuit as invented by a man to stimulate lustful, objectifying thoughts of women much like when a man thinks of using power tools. 
I couldn't take it anymore, and voiced my disagreement with the video's conclusions. 
I reminded my wife that she wore several bikinis when we were dating, and asked her if she thought that she was immoral for wearing them. She replied, "Yes, I probably was, but I was young and stupid too." 
Now, this may not seem like a big deal, but this comes in a long string of other statements that have bothered and upset me. 

We started dating back in the 80's and after a year of exclusive dating we lost our virginity to each other at the age of 19. We continued our serious relationship for 2 more years and got married at the age of 21. And trust me, we had more hot and heavy "porn-like" sex in those 2 years than even after getting married. 
Needless to say, we were excited and eagerly anticipated getting married and not having to sneak our sexual encounters in my, or her parents homes. Finally, after moving out and getting married we could enjoy each other whenever, or wherever in our apartment we wanted.
Sadly, that didn't happen. After getting married, sex dropped to once or twice a week. Okay, I was a bit disappointed, but fine with it. Supporting oneself is a big step. 

The years started rolling by, jobs, careers, homes came and went, our children were born, grew up and moved out.
If you charted our sexual activity over the last 20 years it would look like a stock market report. Some times it was high and climbing, other times it was low and infrequent. I think that's normal for most married couples. 
However, I have noticed in conversations with my wife, that she regrets most of the things we did together when we were dating. 
She now heavily regrets all the petting and sexual touching we did to each other before marriage.
She extremely regrets losing her virginity before we were married.
All of which I remember with great fondness and warmth thinking that she loved, and trusted me enough to share that physical part of her with me, and I with her. That was a part of her that attracted me. We were a perfect match sexually for each other, and she voiced the same to me at that time. 

I hate it now when she starts the complaints about her past sexual regrets. It really hurts. 
I might be able to understand it if she had lost her virginity to some jerk boyfriend, that abused her and left, but she married me and we have been married for nearly 28 years with 5 children.

Which brings us to the present. Now she is telling our daughter that when she was young she never wore a bikini or dressed in short-shorts, tank tops, or anything "immodest". Which is a bold-faced lie and very hypocritical. 

Which brings me to my problem. I feel like my wife now regrets marrying me, could care less to have sex with me, and is trying to rewrite and erase our past because she now doesn't like who she was when she was younger. 
She is now trying to mold our daughter into someone she thinks she should have been.
Her whole attitude about sex has completely changed from one of fun, playfulness and enjoyment with someone you love, to something shameful, dirty, disgusting and perverted.

What happened to us?


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

Well, first of all, have you asked her that same question? If so, what did she say?

Is the 17 year old your only daughter?

Has your wife become more religious lately? 

You haven't had sex for 2 months...did it just stop or has it been in decline for awhile?

When did you retire?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

We all have to justify everything we do (or don't do) to ourselves. Your wife isn't being sexual and hasn't for some time. She has to either believe she's being cruel to you or she has to find another reason to make her withholding seem right and logical to herself....Bingo...sex is suddenly immoral. She's at the age where female libido often takes a nosedive. It's perfectly normal. My wife does the same. When her libido is up, sex is ok. When her libido is down, anyone who has or mentions sex is a perv.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

That's really sad.

Sounds like some counseling is in order, so you and she can both say out loud what is behind these feelings. For her, why is she re-writing history, and for you, why you want to celebrate your history. Maybe talking these things out in front of a counselor together can help get to the bottom of it.

Oh and you can discuss the missing sex, too.

.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You've allowed these lies to go unchecked? Interesting. Have you always been so passive? Or just since retirement?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

In relation to sex, when left unmanaged by a husband, a wife's thoughts go in very marriage harming directions.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hicks, speak for your own wife, please.

My husband can barely "manage" to keep up with me. And he is a Sex God.

.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

FW, if you are representative of Batman's wife, then why is he here?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I am addressing you and what you said here: "In relation to sex, when left unmanaged by a husband, a wife's thoughts go in very marriage harming directions."

You are apparently making a general statement here, and I am asking you to speak only for yourself and your own wife with that particular statement because it is not a true general statement.

PLUS....the fact that you would even imply that a husband can or should "manage" a woman's thoughts on sex is ridiculous and impossible.

.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Batman4691, My husband and I are a few years older than you two, have been married for about a year longer with 5 children around the same age as yours.

I agree with unbelievable, your wife is at the age when she is going through hormonal imbalances and he is right about it affecting her brain and thinking. I went – going – through this and when my hormones are down, sex = yuck, I am getting much better and tried to cover it up, but the hormones are pretty powerful on their ability to control our thoughts.

As for the moral character she is trying to instill in her daughter, I think this is good. I have tried to teach all my children to be modest. The boys don’t run around without shirts on, the girls don’t wear tanks (without something over it), short-shorts, or bikinis. I think teaching kids to be more respectful of themselves and each other is something our society is sorely lacking. The difference is I don’t lie to them and tell them I never did that, I just don’t say anything, but if they ask I am honest. Your wife might have felt these teachings were lacking in her upbringing and since she has gotten older has come to appreciate them more and wants your daughter to be taught them.

Having said that, I do think that most of the things going on with her, being so regretful of her past, lack of interest in you, etc. is her hormones. See if she will go to the Dr. and get them checked. There are some better options on the market now, one being bio-identical hormones. There are several compounding pharmacy’s making them. If her Dr. in unfamiliar with them, just find a compounding pharmacy and the Pharmacist will be able to help her. When I first started going through the mid-life thing, I was much worse than your wife :banghead: it was really hard on myself and my husband and it took years to balance out again.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I am addressing you and what you said here: "In relation to sex, when left unmanaged by a husband, a wife's thoughts go in very marriage harming directions."
> 
> You are apparently making a general statement here, and I am asking you to speak only for yourself and your own wife with that particular statement because it is not a true general statement.
> 
> ...


It is an accurate statement in marriages where a wife was sexual with her husband in the beginning and now thinks sex is wrong and dirty. Her thoughts went into a marriage harming direction. Her husband, throughout the marriage, is in a position to lead her to understand that sex in a marriage is a good, necessary, pure and wonderful thing. A man will fail at keeping his marriage functioning if he does not advocate for his sexual needs and keeping his wife thinking that sex is a good thing. No doubt, there is a small percentage of women who are so sexually driven that this is unnecessary.... But it's too complicated to constantly say "most, many, a large majority, a statistically significant population of, etc." in front of each and every post.

And, by letting a man know that he is not alone in his struggle inside his marraige, and that his wife's behavior and thought process is relatively common, I belive it gives more hope for him to see there is possibility to improve his marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Since it is so relatively common, how in the world do you propose that any man "manage" his wife's mind? Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds? Who would want to be married to someone who wants to "manage" their mind, man or woman?

.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Hicks said:


> It is an accurate statement in marriages where a wife was sexual with her husband in the beginning and now thinks sex is wrong and dirty. Her thoughts went into a marriage harming direction. Her husband, throughout the marriage, is in a position to lead her to understand that sex in a marriage is a good, necessary, pure and wonderful thing. A man will fail at keeping his marriage functioning if he does not advocate for his sexual needs and keeping his wife thinking that sex is a good thing. No doubt, there is a small percentage of women who are so sexually driven that this is unnecessary.... But it's too complicated to constantly say "most, many, a large majority, a statistically significant population of, etc." in front of each and every post.
> 
> And, by letting a man know that he is not alone in his struggle inside his marraige, and that his wife's behavior and thought process is relatively common, I belive it gives more hope for him to see there is possibility to improve his marriage.


Actually, I agree with this - at least what I think he is trying to say. I think many women do have a very different view of sex than men, but the reasons are diversifide - religious, abuse, hormonal, and because of the basic difference between a man and womans thinking a man may unconsciously bring his wife to believe that she is just a tool for him to get off on, all he cares about is sex.

So, a man can have an impact on how a woman sees sex, either good or bad. In this case however, I do believe she needs to get her hormones checked.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't disagree with the premise of wearing more modest clothes for teens or young adults; my daughters both have traffic-stopping looks thanks to a good blend of European and Asian genes, but I insist on some modesty. 

The turning conservative part happens too. My wife did just that, from staunch Hillary supporter in 2008 to all Fox all the time. She probably has forgotten all the wild stuff we did in the 80s too.

The sex is a different story and could use a deeper analysis. But only that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If what you are saying is true, then the reverse should work for HD women who are married to LD men, right? The HD women should "manage" their husband's thoughts regarding sex, and somehow that will make him have more sex with her.

SURE.

.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Just to comment on what the wife is saying to your 17 year old daughter. As a dad, I have no problem telling my girls that as long as you live under my roof - no bikinis. Take a step back and think about this for a second. Maybe your wife is doing it wrong by lying about what she actually did at her young age, but insisting that your under the legal age girl dress appropriately is not the problem IMHO. Instead of lying, I'd take the approach that "if you want to live here, you dress like an appropriate lady". When my girls go off to college, then they can dress how they want. They will anyways since I won't be around to see what they are up to when they are on campus. but when you come home - you dress more modestly.

You wife may be going through the hormonal changes of life for women. It's possible that she needs to get herself regulated in order to regain some of that sexual desire. IDK, I haven't experienced all of that yet.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't like this whole "managing" spouses thing. But realistically I think that LD spouses have been quietly managing their HD spouse's expectations forever.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't like this whole "managing" spouses thing. But realistically I think that LD spouses have been quietly managing their HD spouse's expectations forever.


At the risk of a threadjack, I personally believe that the concept of LD is grossly overstated. I believe that there are legitimate cases of people having real LD. However, I think most situations are not true LD so much as one spouse loses attraction for the other and thus becomes LD.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Do you think this is because your children are now at the same ages that she was when she was feeling sexually wild and cant bear the thought of them doing those same things?

I know it is hard when hour kids start hitting those milestones. Its one thing to lose your own virginity at 19 - its quite another to think of your daughter doing it. 

My own children are old enough to be curious about my past - did I love anyone other than their dad, have I tried drugs, how old I was when I became a mother, etc. These are questions I have been asked recently.

Incidently that Evolution of the Swimsuit really rubbed me the wrong way. I thought I was the only one, though, because everyone on FB thinks its the best thing since sliced bread.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> If what you are saying is true, then the reverse should work for HD women who are married to LD men, right? The HD women should "manage" their husband's thoughts regarding sex, and somehow that will make him have more sex with her.
> 
> SURE.
> 
> .


I have no clue what makes a man go non sexual with his wife. I doubt it is much like a woman going non sexual with her husband.

All feelings and attidudes in life are a choice made inside your own mind. And yes, people guide each other's thoughts in all sorts of ways.... Mabye I should have used the word "guide" instead of "manage"... Look at the example of the person who posted about his wife going from Hilary to Fox News... The people on Fox News guided her thoughts, feelings and beliefs into a different political philosophy.... Nothing wrong, sexist or sinnister. People who believe in something, talk about their beliefs in a compellling way, causing another person's thoughts and opinions to shift in that way.

A man can and should do this with his wife.

A woman (and men actually) can be raised to believe sex is wrong, bad, dirty etc....And once the wife has her husband, her kids and all the things that "sex" gives to her in life.... the social conditionining that sex is bad begins to dominate since there is nothing counteracting that (nothing inside the wife's mind giving her a reason for sex)... They need someone to counteract this condidtioning... Who else is supposed to do this? Her husband, has to be the one.

Is this 100% of wives or women ? No. But it's a common enough scenario in a sexless marriage. And, I think it's practical advice and choice of words to help the OP look at his situation in a different way then he has been for 28 years (yielding a result that he is not happy with).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, I am sure that you are right, and that you should always "manage" your wife's thoughts and ideas. Uh huh.

Sorry Hicks...no matter how many times you re-frame what you said, it was still a ridiculous thing to say.

.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Ginger-snap, let me answer your questions first.



> Well, first of all, have you asked her that same question? If so, what did she say?


I have talked with my wife about our decline, or drop off in sexual activity several times over the past few years. Her response is usually something like this. "Well, we're getting older, and it's just natural." She knows there is less activity in the bedroom and she is fine with it. She knows I am a bit frustrated with it, but to her, that's just how men act about sex. Men are always going to want it, but as a women ages, it just isn't that necessary. I then made the mistake of telling her that is why older men end up having affairs with younger women. She blew up at me, and started asking me if I was looking to have an affair and ruin our family. Then the questions and accusations really got nasty. I will never open that can of worms again. 



> Is the 17 year old your only daughter?


We have 2 girls. Our 17 year old is our youngest daughter. Our oldest child is our first daughter. She is married and has a baby of her own now. Our first grandchild.



> Has your wife become more religious lately?


Over the last 20 years or so, my wife has slowly become more involved with her church and it's activities. Funny thing that you mentioned that. There could be direct charted lines over the last 20 years showing the increase in her church participation and the decline in our sexual encounters. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to turn this into a big religious debate, I am just saying it like it is.



> You haven't had sex for 2 months...did it just stop or has it been in decline for awhile?


The sexual activity between my wife and I has been in a more noticeably decline for the past 3 to 4 years, and a more drastic decline in the last year. From once a week, to twice a month, to once a month, to 4 times a year. 



> When did you retire?


I retired about 5 years ago when the city I was working for offered bonus money to eligible retirees to clear out some of the higher paid officers. My wife and I discussed the option and we both agreed that she could carry the benefits and insurance stuff with her career, and I could retire and do some much needed work around our home while being home for our kids too. She is still very pleased with this arrangement, and I can't say that I hate it either.

I hope I answered your questions and gave you more insight into our situation.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

First off I need to address my daughter and the "bikini" issue.
I am not for my 17 year old daughter to be running around anyplace and at anytime in a bikini. That is simply inappropriate. 
I have always taught my children to dress appropriately for the occasion. If you are attending a funeral, you dress in a certain way. If you are going to a baseball game, you dress another way. If you are going to church there is an acceptable dress for that occasion. I can see nothing wrong with letting my daughter choose for herself what swimsuit to wear to the beach, pool, or lake. I know my daughter and I trust her. She gets great grades in school, doesn't sass or talk back, isn't a flirt or boy crazy, and has good friends. 
What I do see as a problem is labeling the clothes she chooses to wear as "immodest" or "immoral". I thought those terms applied to an action, attitude or behavior, not a piece of clothing. 
I have taught my daughter proper principles and trust her now to make some choices for herself. 
Labeling a bikini as an immodest way to dress at the pool or beach, I think sends a message to our daughters that there is something wrong with their bodies that needs to be covered up. Good grief, a plunging neckline, bare stomachs, exposed thighs, backs and shoulders. Sounds like a real orgy to me.....NOT.
If these things send some men and boys thoughts into the gutter, that is the males problem, not my daughters. Too many woman have real body issue problems as it is. I don't see any reason to impose archaic religious dress standards upon my daughter like some middle eastern religions do. 
I trust my daughter to dress appropriately for any and all occasions.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

I have had a chance to read all your great responses and advice and thank you for your time and effort. 
I even read though some older posts and found that I am just one man in a ship load of men with pretty much similar problems, who have similar complaints. Strangely, that is comforting to know that I am not alone. 

To give you a better insight into my situation in comparison with other men who share in my complaint. I have already tried all the things that have been suggested to men with an "LD" spouse.
We did nights on the town, romantic dinners, flowers, shopping trips into Chicago's Miracle Mile, ballet tickets, theater tickets, vacation trips for just us two. 
Don't get me wrong, my wife loved doing all those things and expressed her appreciation with thank you's, hugs and kisses, but with the same limited or no heat happening in the bedroom.

To illustrate my growing frustration, 2 years ago for our 25th wedding anniversary, I booked us on a week long Caribbean cruise. Thinking that it would be something like a 2nd honeymoon, with all its heat and passion, however, I ended up coming home very disappointed with the whole sexual situation. 
We even ended up having an argument in our cabin on the 5th night with me storming out because she was always heading off to bed, (sleep) at 10pm. Her usual bedtime.
The first few nights I thought that she wanted to head to our cabin after dinner and the ship's floor show because she wanted to get me into bed. Actually, it was her that she wanted to get into bed. She would strip off her "modest" evening gown, (that's another complaint for later), take off her make-up, climb into bed, pull the blankets around her, say goodnight, roll over and fall asleep. This would leave me sitting there watching the TV. 
For those first 4 nights, I tried to start something, but when she wraps up in the sheets and blankets like a mummy, I know her shields are up and it is useless to try. 
On the 5th night after attending the show in the main theater, I suggested we go dancing in the disco, or later take in the midnight buffet out on the deck, or see what the karaoke night in the lounge was like, or the Salsa band and dancing up in the observation deck. She said that all sounded like it was for "drinkers," (she doesn't drink alcohol), and so tiring and she was still full from dinner and just wanted to lay down. 
When we got back to our cabin I confronted her about ending all our evenings early and not having any sex while on our vacation. 
She explained that we had just been so busy enjoying all the daytime activities on board, and all the site-seeing in the port cities the ship docked in, that she was exhausted by the end of the day. I told her that was an excuse to avoid having sex with me and she had turned frigid. I was angry.
I left our cabin and headed to the ships casino alone. I ended up playing roulette until my wife came and found me about an hour later. She apologized and said she would try harder to be more attentive sexually for me. Not exactly what I wanted to hear. She was going to make concessions for me. What a dear. 
That night we had sex, but it was the usual 5 minutes of me doing foreplay on her, then the 5 minutes of me on top in the missionary position, with her head turned away, and her eyes shut, her arms and hands out to the side, with me doing all the work with little to no movement from her. She doesn't even touch me with her hands anymore. 
If that situation for a man isn't the erectile dysfunction pill of all time, I don't know what is.
Half the time I think she climaxes, I don't know anymore since they are not like what they use to be 20 years ago, with her fists clenching the sheets and me, the body tremors after, and her vocal responses. Now, I just can't tell. She says she does, but I can't tell like before. 

So I am left, like a lot of other men to wonder what is wrong, what did I do, what can I do, or is this just what life holds for middle aged couples?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. OP, undoubtedly, not all middle aged couples has such "sex life" as yours. Clearly, your wife has turned frigid, and need counselling. 

If you have time, please have a look at this thread, it is very informative..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/90154-success-stories-low-drive-high-drive.html


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. OP, undoubtedly, not all middle aged couples has such "sex life" as yours. Clearly, your wife has turned frigid, and need counselling. 

If you have time, please have a look at this thread, it is very informative..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/90154-success-stories-low-drive-high-drive.html


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I am sure that you are right, and that you should always "manage" your wife's thoughts and ideas. Uh huh.
> 
> Sorry Hicks...no matter how many times you re-frame what you said, it was still a ridiculous thing to say.
> 
> .


Well, mabye.

But a man in a sexless marriage should carefull consider what his wife thinks and says to herself. Until her internal conversations about sex and her husband start changing, the OP's situation will not change.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

OP... I'm five years behind you at 20 years but a few years ahead in 'dealing' with my wife's midlife and EA.

Here's the deal.

You wife does not want sex with YOU however she does like sex.

Your wife sees EVERYTHING you do as an avenue to get her to have sex with you...cruise included.

Your wife WANTS to feel sexual towards you and this not feeling it is hard on her also but she simply cannot feel that way towards you so she avoids it always.

Your demeanor and actions make her not feel sexual towards you she may "try" but something 'always' makes her re-consider.

That's what happened to you.

Its a by-product of long-term boredom, resentment and your acceptance of it. She has weighed the odds that you will not leave her. She does not spend ANY time trying hard to solve it. In fact she likes you and she herself would be gone if she didn't love you as the situation is best for her... however she does not love you as her lover... more like that of family love. She probably finds you attractive, smart a great guy but does not feel the desire to have you inside her as it does nothing for her she would rather get a good nights sleep.

I chose to set a time frame and work on it... if the time frame expires so does my ability to care about my wife. She is fully aware of this. We are improving. WE will see where we are once the clock strikes midnight.... there will either be an acceptable marriage or NOT. She has the power of change in her hand.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Batman4691, normally when a wife does this it is because over years she feels her emotional needs have not been met. When she has to shut down emotionally because she feels her husband is not approachable, does not listen to her, care about her emotional needs – she shuts down sexually. They are one in the same.

When you threaten her with having an affair, it just confirms to her that all you care about it sex. You are not interested in fulfilling her emotional needs. A woman continues to have sex with her husband for years hoping that if she meets his needs, he will meet her needs. But year after year goes by and still he is only interested in sex. So down she goes.

Couple this with the possibility that you are not speaking her love language. Do you know what it is? The cruise sounded great – if it was speaking her language. But if her language is “words of affirmation” then it was probably a waste of money (as you feel anyway). Have you read the 5 Love Languages?

Faithful Wife and Hicks – maybe this is what Hicks is trying to say, at least I thought it was. By “managing” he means to say – influencing. Influencing by the way he treats her. Is he meeting her emotional needs? Is he speaking her love language? All spouses have influence on their spouse, they have the ability and responsibility to let them feel loved, desired, appreciated, etc. by their actions and words. Sometimes we subconsciously or ignorantly do the opposite. By changing our behavior, we can have an influence on them to change their behavior – for good or bad – or sexually.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Batman4691 said:


> The sexual activity between my wife and I has been in a more noticeably decline for the past 3 to 4 years, and a more drastic decline in the last year. From once a week, to twice a month, to once a month, to 4 times a year.


That sounds about right... If she finds it "normal" that sexual drive declines so drastically among healthy people she is simply trying to rationalize her LD or no D.

Humans are not good in spotting such patterns because the change happens slowly. But tracking the patterns really makes a difference. If she finds it too difficult to enjoy sex at 2x a month there is nothing intrinsically easier for 1x a month.

My wife gave me the "my body just can't handle" routine till I pointed out her body can handle 5 mile walks at 90F or spreading 15 cubic yards of mulch in a weekend. Once that facade came down the story changed to "I am stressed out at work"...

Honesty seems to be a lost art in some LD's...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The cruise details were quite on the spot if you're a cruise aficionado... Depending on where you go and where you flew from time lag can be nasty. I was a lot sleepier in our last cruise to Alaska a year ago, combination of time zone change, lots of food, and tired from running around all day. 

We usually get a cabin for 4 which kills off the hanky panky quickly . This winter I'm planning a Central America cruise and separate cabins for us and our children (cost difference not as much as it used to be). I can't wait to provide true details of MMSL (merchant marine sex life )


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

*she was always heading off to bed, (sleep) at 10pm. Her usual bedtime.*

When I go to bed I am tiered too. A few years ago I realized that I just didn't have the energy at night and asked my husband if we could change to the morning, or early afternoon. I was more awake and my hormones were more active during this time. It works great when he is willing.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Men manage things. So that's why I said manage. It is a term a man will connect with. The OP is a man.

Trying2figure it out posted the thoughts that are in her head.

The husband thinks "I love my wife, she is beautiful, I want to connect with her sexually".

The wife thinks everything that Trying2figure posted... There are many reasons for this, many of which have to do with how the man treated his wife over the years.

If the man does not figure out how to replace the bad negative conversation that is looping through her head with a positive view of sex, her husband, and her marriage.... Then he will not improve his marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Positive view of sex is where the gap exists. The LD partner may see sex as a chore that can be optimized or minimized away while ignoring the pleasure received from sex. 

Push sex to a certain frequency and it becomes like a vacation, something you do once or twice a year and feel good about, but without concerns about having it on a regular basis. 

Unfortunately unlike lack of vacations, lack of sex has catastrophic long term implications for both partners.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

JustHer said:


> Batman4691, normally when a wife does this it is because over years she feels her emotional needs have not been met. When she has to shut down emotionally because she feels her husband is not approachable, does not listen to her, care about her emotional needs – she shuts down sexually. They are one in the same.
> 
> When you threaten her with having an affair, it just confirms to her that all you care about it sex. You are not interested in fulfilling her emotional needs. A woman continues to have sex with her husband for years hoping that if she meets his needs, he will meet her needs. But year after year goes by and still he is only interested in sex. So down she goes.
> 
> ...


JustHer, 
Maybe I didn't get across my point better. I didn't ever say I threatened my wife by having an affair. I said to her that I know why some men have affairs. She was the one that jumped that gap to conclude I was looking to have an affair. Just like you did.

I think I have done a fairly good job at meeting her emotional needs. I have always treated her with respect, and kindness. 
I try and show interest in her hobbies and the things she does. I don't know how many husbands out there know Tabitha is the host of "Salon Takeover", or that "What Not to Wear" just got cancelled from the Style Network, or what the difference is between a "Serger" sewing machine and a straight stitch sewing machine, or that JoAnne's Fabric Store has a bi-weekly add that usually has a coupon for half off any fabric item or pattern, or my wife's shoe size is an 8W, but a 71/2 in heels, or she wears a size 10 dress, but a size 9 in jeans. 
She loves roses in any color but her favorite flowers are Stargazer Lilies. She loves foot massages while we sit on the couch together watching the news. Her favorite holiday is Halloween with Christmas a close second. She loved stories about fairies when she was a child, so I built her a large fountain in our front yard with fairies all around it. She loves going antiquing and to yard sales, her favorite Disney character is "Dory" the fish. Her favorite chick-flick is "The Notebook". She loves Kashi Go Lean cereal with Silk (milk). She loves us vacationing with the kids in Disneyland, and loves hiking thru Yellowstone Park. but hates the humidity in Florida. She loves chocolate covered strawberries for Valentine's Day, so much so, it has become a tradition. 
I know most of the names of the people she works with, and the names of those she doesn't care to work with. I know she worries about certain aspects of her job she thinks she needs improvement on. I know she loves 2 of her supervisors but dislikes the third. I know she has personally saved the lives of several patients at work and was awarded "Employee of the Month" two times in the past 5 years. I know she is a great nurse and would want her as my nurse if I were in the hospital.

I can make this list cover 20+ pages, but I think you get the idea. However, I bet if you asked my wife what my favorite NFL team has been for the past 30 years, she couldn't tell you. I don't think she could even name an NFL team. 
And if you can believe this, one year SHE forgot our anniversary, and was only reminded when she came home from work and found a dozen roses and me waiting to take her out to dinner.

From what I read from you and some other members responses above, it sounds like I am an ***hole, who sits around all day in a recliner, in my man cave, while watching sports, yelling at my wife to bring me another sandwich. Isn't that the typical image of a husband who isn't attentive to his wife's "emotional" needs?
If what I said about my wife above isn't a small sample of an attentive husband concerned about his wife's emotional needs then I am simply unqualified for the job.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

To the contrary, you have been a doormat whose own emotional needs have not been met while still willing to have sex with her... That's what I think from your posts, no, you have not been an ***hole at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

I absolutely do not think you are an a-hole and treat your wife like sh*t. But we are only getting small glimpses of your life at best and it is coming in in pieces. Most of us are gleaming our advice - help, from personal experience and, or books we have read. Now that you have added more info. the picture is becoming clearer.

I still think she needs to first and foremost -get her hormones checked. If this is the case, get her on some bio-identical hormones, things should improve soon.

If not this, or she doesn't improve - she needs to understand your needs. If she is not hearing you, have her read a book that explains it. Talk to her, make it very clear. If she still won't step up to the plate, you have no choice but to do the 180.

And, I am really sorry for what you are going through.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Batman4691 said:


> Which brings me to my problem. I feel like my wife now regrets marrying me, could care less to have sex with me, and is trying to rewrite and erase our past because she now doesn't like who she was when she was younger.


The first thing I thought when reading your story was that I would make it clear how this part is hurting you. It's not just about sex. It's about rejecting YOU, by rejecting your past. I would tell her something like this: _"Honey, I love you, and our memories are important to me. That was the best time of our lives, it was when I fell in love with you, and it hurts me that you sound like you regret it. That's like telling me that you regret meeting me, marrying me, and everything else we did." _




> She is now trying to mold our daughter into someone she thinks she should have been.


The funny thing is, when I was in college, every year the guys would look for the new freshmen girls who came from strict families. Those were the girls who went really sexually wild, now that they were free.




> Her whole attitude about sex has completely changed from one of fun, playfulness and enjoyment with someone you love, to something shameful, dirty, disgusting and perverted.


Tell her that sex is a part of love and you won't accept this interpretation of it. 

You are probably a better man than me. I would already be packing up by this point. At the very least, I REALLY think you need a marriage counselor, a neutral third party to help you both through this. I'm guessing she will initially refuse to go, because she will see it as your problem, not hers. Make it clear that anything affecting the marriage is her problem too, and insist that she participate.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> Over the last 20 years or so, my wife has slowly become more involved with her church and it's activities. Funny thing that you mentioned that. There could be direct charted lines over the last 20 years showing the increase in her church participation and the decline in our sexual encounters. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to turn this into a big religious debate, I am just saying it like it is.


I do think this is a key point...not that religion causes sexual dysfunction, but that the two of you are drifting apart in your beliefs. Since you said "her church" I'm going to assume that you do not attend with her or share the same faith, or level of faith. It sounds to me, based on what you've said, that she is embracing more conservative aspects of her religion; her moral boundaries have shifted whereas yours have not. I am not judging either of you; I'm merely trying to point out where a divide seems to have developed/grown. 

Generally, I think two people with different faiths (or one with faith and one without) can have a good relationship, as long as their moral boundaries are very similar. That is, the day-to-day judgments and decisions we make in life are governed in a similar manner. Once that changes, it's very difficult to reconcile that divide. I see aspects of this with my own parents, as their two faiths are so divergent there isn't much middle ground.



> The first thing I thought when reading your story was that I would make it clear how this part is hurting you. It's not just about sex. It's about rejecting YOU, by rejecting your past. I would tell her something like this: "Honey, I love you, and our memories are important to me. That was the best time of our lives, it was when I fell in love with you, and it hurts me that you sound like you regret it. That's like telling me that you regret meeting me, marrying me, and everything else we did."


I agree with Theseus, and it was exactly where I was headed with my first question. I also agree that you may need to seek counseling in order to have a neutral party that can provide both an outside perspective as well as guide you both in your communication with each other. Express your hurt to her (and I love his wording), but be careful to not come across as whining, complaining, or desperate (not saying you are, but sometimes we don't realize how we sound/look when we talk until we get 3rd party confirmation). 

Finally, I would also address the lying. Rewriting history is not good and forcing you to be complicit in it is terrible. As I've said before in other places, kids are more perceptive than adults tend to give them credit for. She could be using her own history as a teachable moment; instead she is wiping it out and wiping out some of your happiest memories in the process. Do not allow her to continue to do this.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Add political boundaries as well. Mr. Romney's defeat last fall caused tremendous stress to Dr. Mrs. LD, as she was concerned that "millions of young (deleted) women can now have sex because my tax money will be paying for their (deleted) birth control pills."

Would be nice if she used the mathematically awesome brain of hers to actually figure out its cheaper to pay for birth control... But divides like that can't be bridged. 

So we listened to Fox News for some more and that was that. Sex fell from an average chore to cleaning the stables, if you get my drift...

It's likely that any excuse will do, of course, and that was just the BPD talking, but it's the kind of thing we live with...


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

john117 said:


> Add political boundaries as well. Mr. Romney's defeat last fall caused tremendous stress to Dr. Mrs. LD, as she was concerned that "millions of young (deleted) women can now have sex because my tax money will be paying for their (deleted) birth control pills."


Yes, well, political boundaries often tie in with moral boundaries in some way or another. Personally, there is nothing I detest more than political arguments, even though I would agree with your position on the argument you have presented.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

JustHer said:


> I absolutely do not think you are an a-hole and treat your wife like sh*t. But we are only getting small glimpses of your life at best and it is coming in in pieces. Most of us are gleaming our advice - help, from personal experience and, or books we have read. Now that you have added more info. the picture is becoming clearer.
> 
> I still think she needs to first and foremost -get her hormones checked. If this is the case, get her on some bio-identical hormones, things should improve soon.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your understanding and concern. I agree with you that you are only able to get little snippets of a relationship that has spanned 30 years and you are only getting one side of the story. That makes it difficult to give advice to anyone. 

I am sure my wife could list things that I do that really frustrate and bother her. One of which, I am sure, is that I do not go to church with her anymore. I won't name any religious denomination because it isn't about the religion. 
To answer a question earlier about both our religious beliefs, I am of the same faith that she is, but do not attend the meetings and functions she does. You could say I have fallen away from the church. I got tired of coming home from church, feeling angry and used. Church isn't supposed to make you feel that way, so I stopped going. That was about 10 years ago.
My wife still takes our daughter with her to church so she has someone to go with and they have a good time together. 
The background is we were raised in the same faith, but when we were dating and the first few years we were married, we never went to church. It was only after our second child was born, that she wanted to start going back to church so our kids could experience some Christian teachings. 
I agreed, but after 8 years of feeling used and treated poorly by other church goers and knowing what I knew about some of the other patrons, I couldn't sit there anymore chumming it up with those hypocrites. (Sorry, I will digress on this subject.)

On the subject of having her hormones checked by a Dr. I would love to take and have her hormones checked, but I am sure that her response will be one of two ways, or maybe even both.
1.) She feels fine, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. Or as my grandpa would say, "If you can see the picture on the TV stop fiddlin' with the knobs."
2.) She will be upset and/or mad at me for suggesting she has a problem. That I want to drug her so she will "perform" for me. Ever see the episode of "Everyone Loves Raymond" were he brings home medication to lessen the effects PMS has on his wife Debra. That's how I see this playing out.

However, she has suggested having a complete physical done because she has been struggling to lose some weight and is having some concerns over her thyroid about it.

That brings me to our weight issues, which I can't believe no one asked about, or I didn't mention.

When we were dating and got married, (28 years ago), I was a competitive bodybuilder and weighed 230 lbs. and 6' 2" of solid, chiseled muscle. I worked part time as a doorman/bouncer at a downtown nightclub. So my body was important in my job at the time. 

My wife was working as a hostess at an upscale 4 star restaurant and had done some modeling work on the side. Swimsuit and 50's style pin-up girl stuff. Nothing nude, but really cute and sexy ad type pics. She even received an offer or refferal from a Playboy photographer to do a test-photo shoot for the magazine. Of course, she made the decision to turn it down, but it was a big self-confidence boost for her. I would always tease her about being my Playboy Playmate, just never published. At that time she was 120 lbs. at 5'6" and would turn men's heads everywhere she went.

Now onto today. 
I currently weigh about 280 lbs.. The chiseled abs are gone and a nice spare tire and generous love handles are there. It didn't all come on in the past few years either. With marriage, children, careers and added responsibilities you find it hard maintaining the Adonis physique and the pounds creep on year after year. 
It's the same with my wife. She told me about a month ago that she weighs 175 lbs., which for me, her weight really isn't an issue. I still find her very attractive and sexy. In fact she added the extra pounds in all the right places. Her thighs might jiggle a bit more, her hips are a little wider, and her boobs went up 2 cup sizes. She is just a more voluptuous woman now, and that's not a bad thing. I really love her at any size. 

One thing that did upset me though, was when I lost all my extra weight 5 years ago when I retired. I vowed to myself, and my wife, that I wasn't going to be sitting around watching TV all day and blow up to 300 lbs. Plus, as a bonus, I thought if I could get back to where I was when we first got married, our sexual relations would receive a big boost. 
I hit the gym in the morning while my wife was at work so it wouldn't interfer with our time together. I went 6 days a week 90 minutes a day, and tried my best to not miss a workout. My diet changed from restuarant and fast food to more healthy choices at home. 
Nine months after retiring I had gone from 272 lbs down to 218 lbs. I had lost 54 lbs of fat. My abs weren't chiseled as before, but they were there. My arms, shoulders and chest weren't as big or hard, but they were noticeable under my shirts. I had more energy, was also feeling more confident and better about myself in general. I was 44 years old and in the best shape of my life since I was 24, and enjoying it.
Sadly, my wife didn't feel the same way. When people would compliment me, she would say that I was starting to look like her son, rather than her husband. She accused me of being "obsessed" with how I looked. She would literally cry and say she had this feeling that I was going to leave her. 
During that summer, I would take our kids to the pool a couple days a week and she didn't like me going. When I asked her why, she said that she didn't think it appropriate to have women there "ogling" or staring at me with our children watching.
Our relations in the bedroom didn't pick up at all. They may have even dropped off a bit. Which was really confusing me. I thought it may be because she was still carrying some extra padding, and felt left behind in the weight loss dept, so I changed around my gym schedule so she could go with me after work. That lasted for about a month. 
At the gym, she would always pout, glare at me, or take extra measures to not look at me at all. Then the straw that broke the camel's back was when a younger woman came up to me at the gym and asked me if I could show her how to use a nearby machine. After I showed her how it functioned, she asked me if I was a personal trainer, or if I could show her some basic exercises she could do. I politely told her I wasn't, and turned her down. My wife was right there and heard the whole thing. The rest of the night, and most of the next day, my wife didn't say a word to me, or even look at me. I felt I was being shunned. The next day she didn't go to the gym with me. She had other plans with my daughter at a church function. 
After that incident she told me that going to the gym after work was really to much for her. She said she would rather do one of her Jazzersize or aerobics DVD's in the morning before work. I offered to get up and do it with her, but she said she'd rather do it alone. I told her that's fine by me, and went back to my morning gym time. 
After a few months of this went by, her obvious hatred of my fitness routine, her negativity directed at me, and her non-support and down right sabotage of me being physically fit, I decided that it might be best to cut back a bit and see if that would make her happy. Her attitude improved so I cut back a little more, and a little more, and before you know it, I had gained back 30 lbs. However, she was back to being the caring and loving wife I knew, with no more glares and pouting. 
And as it predictably goes, a year later I was right back where I started, 50 lbs. overweight.
I will admit that I do still harbor some resentment toward her for those 6 months of her terrible treatment of me. Not to say I blame her completely for me gaining all, plus a little more of the weight back, but I just wonder if I had just a little support from her if the weight would still be off today.

I apologize for writing so much, but I feel this could be a factor from the past that could be affecting our sexual relations today. What do you think?


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Theseus said:


> The first thing I thought when reading your story was that I would make it clear how this part is hurting you. It's not just about sex. It's about rejecting YOU, by rejecting your past. I would tell her something like this: _"Honey, I love you, and our memories are important to me. That was the best time of our lives, it was when I fell in love with you, and it hurts me that you sound like you regret it. That's like telling me that you regret meeting me, marrying me, and everything else we did." _


When my wife does start in on the whole, "I wish I hadn't done those things." It is usually in response to me reminiscing about a certain time we did have some sort of sexual activity. Something will jog my memory like a year or two ago, my wife's car overheated on the way home from work. While helping her with it, I brought up the time when we were dating that my car overheated on the way back from a trip we had taken. She was giving me a oral while I drove. I kept driving faster and faster, and in the hot summer weather my car blew a radiator hose. 
Or the time when we were looking at buying a used car for my oldest son. The one we bought had a bench seat in the front which my first car had also. It was great for sitting close and messing around on. While looking at my son's car, I reminded her, (in private), about the time she straddled me and had some mind-blowing sex on my front seat in the parking lot of a Kmart late one night. 

It's during times like this that I have brought up our past sexual exploits and she just shuts me down and states emphatically that she wishes that had never happened, like we slaughtered some puppies or something. 
So I have learned not to bring them up. I still remember them with great fondness, but I don't remind her of them anymore.

I have told her that those memories are of a time when I fell in love with her, and I wouldn't change a thing. But she says that what we did was wrong and "do you want your children doing the same things before they are married." 
I then see no point in escalating the argument so I just shut up. 




Theseus said:


> The funny thing is, when I was in college, every year the guys would look for the new freshmen girls who came from strict families. Those were the girls who went really sexually wild, now that they were free.


My wife was from a very strict and religious family. One day my wife (girlfriend then) came to me in tears, saying that her mom had cut up one of her tight sleeveless shirts because it was immodest. I recently reminded her of that incident, but she has no recollection of it. Strange, but yet convenient, isn't it?




Theseus said:


> Tell her that sex is a part of love and you won't accept this interpretation of it.


I have talked circles with my wife about what middle-aged married couples sex lives are like. Her interpretation and view on the matter has gotten quite prudish. According to her, the primary biological reason for sex is to produce children. As a woman's body ages it naturally doesn't need to produce anymore children, so the sex drive of the woman naturally lesson over the years. We can keep having sex, but she just won't be in the mood as often. 



Theseus said:


> You are probably a better man than me. I would already be packing up by this point. At the very least, I REALLY think you need a marriage counselor, a neutral third party to help you both through this. I'm guessing she will initially refuse to go, because she will see it as your problem, not hers. Make it clear that anything affecting the marriage is her problem too, and insist that she participate.


I can already hear her say that we can attend a marriage counseling class at the church she goes too. I can only guess what their position will be.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Batman I enjoyed how you described the things your wife likes but how you doubt she even knows what football team you like.
I got a kick out of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

richie33 said:


> Batman I enjoyed how you described the things your wife likes but how you doubt she even knows what football team you like.
> I got a kick out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Indeed very good description... Very one-sided emotionally, and the elaborate explanation resonates strongly within those of us that have been there...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Perhaps in 100 years we will realize how wrong the super socially conservative mentality that has messed up so many people in this country has been...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> I have talked circles with my wife about what middle-aged married couples sex lives are like. Her interpretation and view on the matter has gotten quite prudish. According to her, the primary biological reason for sex is to produce children. As a woman's body ages it naturally doesn't need to produce anymore children, so the sex drive of the woman naturally lesson over the years. We can keep having sex, but she just won't be in the mood as often.
> .


This is true. Your wife is right. 

A major mistake is making her think she is broken or defective.... You are right on with the hormone thing. You don't tell your wife to get her hormones checked. You tell her the kind of marraige you want and let her figure out how to get there.

It comes down to this. Many women are brought up to believe that sex is bad. So they have to permit themself to have sex. They have to have a resason that overrides what their parents taught them. When your wife was young and wanted to marry you, she permitted herself becuase she knew it would make you fall in love with her and marry her. Then after you got married, and she wanted kids, so she stayed sexual. Once she has a man, she has her marriage, she has her life, she has a man who is denied a sexual marriage and emotioinal connection, but yet treats her very well... Tell me what is her reason for overcoming the negative conditioning she has about sex?

She is acting typically and normally. You are in reaction mode which is a terrible place to be as a husband in a marriage. For example, you start working out to get your wife to have more sex with you, and you quit working out in the gym to make your wife happy. You made both of these decisions based on what the impact to your wife and her sexual feelings would be. This is why your wife doesnt want sex with you. She is holding a power over her man that she loathes being able to hold, and daily confirms to herself that she is stronger than you are.

Becuase you are in reaction mode to your wife, you are allowing your wife's view of the world, marriage and sex be the definition of how your marriage operates.

To improve your marriage do the following things.

Think about how you want to live. Not as a means to get sex off your wife but how you personally want to live. Getting in shape is a great idea. Live life on your terms knowing that you will go through a self improvement process and at the end of it your wife will choose to either be with you on your terms, or she will reject your terms.

Accept how you are made, and how your wife is made, and that neither of you are wrong, but both of you are right, and both of your perspectives need to define your marriage.

Make sure that you are meeting your wife's needs and acting in such a way that if you ever told her you wanted a divorce, she would not want a divorce.

Teach your wife that in a marriage, each person has needs, each person's needs are different, and that sometimes we "receive" and sometimes we "give".... And that you spend alot of time and personal energy doing things to make her life better.

When your wife says she is non sexual, you respond by saying that you as a man are wired to be sexual and that the main difference between a marriage and any other relationship in life is that a marriage is a sexual relationship. And that this is your main emotional need in your marriage and it will not change.

Ask your wife what kind of wife she wants to be, a wife that tries to meet the needs of her husband or a wife that chooses to ignore the needs of her husband.

Accept that her "trying" is the real thing you are after, and let her know that. It's the trying, the choices you see her make, that makes you feel loved.

If she chooses to be the type of wife that ignores the needs of her husband, then file for divorce.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

Batman4691 said:


> So I have learned not to bring them up. I still remember them with great fondness, but I don't remind her of them anymore.
> 
> I have told her that those memories are of a time when I fell in love with her, and I wouldn't change a thing. But she says that what we did was wrong and "do you want your children doing the same things before they are married."
> I then see no point in escalating the argument so I just shut up.


This is a mistake. You need to bring it up again and again, not as reminders, but in a serious conversation that tells her she is rewriting your past. She doesn't get it. You need to (literally) fight/argue to save your marriage! My answer to her question would be "Yes! We raised them with morals. I trust them not to go sleeping around with anyone and everyone. If it leads them to the love of their life, to a sexually fulfilling marriage, then yes, yes, yes."

You already have a grown, married daughter. Did your wife act like this with her? I am wondering why all this is being triggered now, and my only conclusion is religion...I also think she is resenting you for not going (not that you can fix that if you don't agree with the church). 

I didn't bring up weight because you didn't. If it was an issue, I would've expected to see it in your OP. Generally, I see weight issues as a symptom of deeper issues in the marriage. There are folks here with spouses who have gained a considerable amount of weight and while it's not really attractive, they still desire their spouse. 

Now, your particular weight issue is a bit interesting as she actually had a powerful negative reaction to your weight loss. I still stand by what I said about her religious beliefs. They are indeed turning her into a prude. She doesn't want sex and she doesn't want you to want it either, or be attractive to others where you could get it. 

Hicks is right about you needing to stop letting her control the way you live. If you want to lose the weight, then lose it. You can't blame her for you gaining back the weight. You chose to stop to try to make *her* happy, not because it made *you* happy. If she treats you badly, then tell her you are unhappy being out of shape and overweight, and you resent her wanting you to be unhappy. If it starts an argument, so be it. Do NOT bring up affairs or anything of the sort. Fight fairly, calmly, and rationally.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I doubt my daughters would get away with the same stuff their mom did 30 years ago. Getting an apartment with a guy for 3 years, premarital hanky panky galore, and getting married then waiting for months to tell our folks. Of course different situations then and now but that does not seem to permeate..


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hicks said:


> To improve your marriage do the following things.
> 
> Think about how you want to live. Not as a means to get sex off your wife but how you personally want to live. Getting in shape is a great idea. Live life on your terms knowing that you will go through a self improvement process and at the end of it your wife will choose to either be with you on your terms, or she will reject your terms.
> 
> ...


First off I need to thank you all for the great and thought provoking responses to my post. I appreciate them all.

I have dwelled upon this problem for weeks now, and over the last few days it just simply boils down to one thing, and there is a song by _*Cheap Trick *_that sums everything up in one sentence. 

*"I Want You To Want Me"*. 

Most of you know that simple little song that goes, "I want you to want me, I need you to need me, I'd love you to love me....." 

I have read numerous posts in the forums here by men, and the complaints they have with their spouses and there is one singular theme that permeates all of them. They want their wife's to want them. 
We have been talking about how to get my wife and I to meet each others emotional needs. Somehow if I meet her needs she will understand that I have needs too, break down and start agreeing to have sex more frequently with me. Like it is some sort of business contract deal. 
I don't want that. I literally "want her to want me" in a sexual manner like it use to be. That has to be the most fantastic feeling for a man when the woman he is with desires and lusts for him physically. 
I have seen advice to other men telling him to take "her" out to dinner, buy flowers, candy, backrubs, romantic getaways, get in shape, and so on, and so on. When really it just ends up going nowhere. 

I don't know what use to drive my wife, (many years ago), to strip my clothes off and ravish me in the bedroom, forcing me to prolong that moment of climax for hours, with physical positions and acts that even I could never dream of, but that is all gone. Like she burned herself out or something. Her sexual tank has run dry. 

I think most men on this forum would agree with me. That is all they are really looking for, is for their wife to "want" them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Batman...the problem is, your wife doesn't care what other men on this forum want.

She *might* care about what YOU want...if you make it clear to her this is a deal breaker.

OR she might not care. She might let you walk out the door over this.

So you are back to square one.

Is it a deal breaker to you, or not?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> First off I need to thank you all for the great and thought provoking responses to my post. I appreciate them all.
> 
> I have dwelled upon this problem for weeks now, and over the last few days it just simply boils down to one thing, and there is a song by _*Cheap Trick *_that sums everything up in one sentence.
> 
> ...


Actually while ideal what most of us want is for our wives to lift a single finger to attempt to meet our needs like we do with them on a regular 24 x 7 x 365 way of life.

We do so because we love them and its the correct thing to do.

Basically a sense of fairness in the meeting needs department is what we are after.

See I already know my wife "wants me" otherwise she'd be gone... perhaps not sexually but with many of my other qualities. Thats good enough for me as long as she lifts a finger to meet my needs also and enjoy like I do when that happens.

Just like when I do something for her... perhaps I didn't enjoy it but she did and that's what counts.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Batman,

Before you reject it all..... Here are a few things to consider.

It is possible to get your wife to want you in the manner you describe. And it does relate to what you were doing in the beginning of your marriage to get her to respond to you.

Once you develop the personal confidence to live life on your own terms, and the personal confidence to know you are meeting your wife's needs at a high level and giving her a great feelings on a daily basis, the personal confidence to konw that you can easily replace your wife with someone who meets your criteria as a wife, there is no end to where you can take this. It's that personal masculine attidue which will both give you the sense of control of over your life and that is the exact energy that your wife responded to early in your relationship.

Read "the man up and nice guy reference" in the Men's section, and look for old posts by bigbadwolf ..... 

But rememeber going from where you are to where you want to be is a journey that takes time.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Batman...the problem is, your wife doesn't care what other men on this forum want.
> 
> She *might* care about what YOU want...if you make it clear to her this is a deal breaker.
> 
> ...


Dear Faithful,
I don't think you understood my last post about wanting my wife to want me. I know she doesn't care what other men on this forum want. Where did you get that idea? 
My point was that I want her to *want* or *desire* to have sex with ME again. 
And not out of some wifely duty she feels she needs to perform for me on a regular basis, or some guilt that she needs to meet my emotional need for sex. NO. I want her to feel that sexual need, desire, urge, or whatever you want to call it, within herself that she feels she needs to satisfy. 
There is nothing worse than having sexual intercourse with someone that is only going along with it for the pleasure of the other. That is when you get them just laying there, watching the clock, staring at the ceiling, and half-heartedly going thru the motions so the dumb b*stard will hurry, finish and get off them. *I DO NOT want that. * I have had that happen several times in the recent past and it has to be the biggest mood killer around. I would rather not even attempt intercourse than be placated with that scenario. It just exacerbates the whole problem.

Is it a deal breaker? No. 
I would never divorce my wife and walk out because I wasn't having sex on a healthy and normal basis. I will satisfy my "urges" on my own if it comes to that, and frankly, that is happening more often nowadays.
Maybe, I would consider divorce if this had happened in the first few years of our marriage, but I have 5 children to think about, 2 of which are still living at home. 
I would never trade away being a full time father with my children so I could go live alone somewhere, see my kids every other weekend and holidays, so I could start all over with another woman that could possibly be the same way. Meaning plenty of sex on a regular basis in the beginning, just to drop off to near nothing a few years later.
I'm not going to bet what I have now on an unknown future.

I really do love my wife, and feel she loves me. We have shared 30 years together with more things than sex, and I want it to work out and see it through.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Batman,
> 
> Before you reject it all..... Here are a few things to consider.
> 
> ...


Hicks, 
thanks for the heads up on "The Man Up and Nice Guy Reference". I will be reading that right after I write this.

I agree with you that I definitely need to, "man up". It's been long overdue. 

Today, I discussed with my wife what attracted us to each other so long ago. 
She told me that first it was my body that got her attention, and then it was my personality. I asked her what about my personality she found attractive. She started off with the usual; sense of humor, kindness, upbeat attitude, so on, and so on. Then she said something that I had never heard before. She said she was attracted to my "confidence". That I knew what I wanted out of life, had a plan to achieve it, and wasn't afraid to go get it. When I walked, I carried myself with a strength that other guys didn't have. Not ****y, but a confidence that drew her in, that she found attractive and sexy. 
She actually linked confidence with sexy. 


I then realized that since I had retired 5 years ago, I have taken on the dutiful housewife role. I take care of all the household chores, cleaning, laundry, dishes, etc. and in doing so, gave away my role in life as the confident male she finds attractive and desirable. 
We talked further, and I told her that I wanted to go back to the gym, and get back into shape. Not to be 21 years old and sexy again, but to get healthy. Going on 50 and being 60 lbs. overweight isn't the best place to be. 
She agreed, stating she wanted to go back too and drop some weight. 
We have plans to start the gym together after the 4th of July and ensuing weekend. I hope things go well. If she starts the whole negative attitude toward me again, I am dragging her to a therapist. This is my health for god sake, and a professional therapist would agree.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Actually while ideal what most of us want is for our wives to lift a single finger to attempt to meet our needs like we do with them on a regular 24 x 7 x 365 way of life.
> 
> We do so because we love them and its the correct thing to do.
> 
> ...


Trying2figure,
I somewhat agree with what you described above, however, it really gets me further sexually frustrated.

I also do things for my wife all the time, but I am really not thinking, "If I do this for her, she should be willing to do this for me". In my case, it is just asking to be sitting at the edge of the bed, frustrated and muttering to myself that I thought I did everything right today. 

I understand and appreciate you do things for your wife because you like making her happy and seeing the results from that happiness spill over into the bedroom.
That's the problem that I am having with my wife. The things I do for her, do make her happy, but there is none of that joy carrying over into our bedroom.

Like I said in a previous post, I want my wife to sexually desire me again. I want her to desire sex again. Plain and simple. 
I don't want her to "agree" to have sex with me more often because I do things for her outside of the bedroom.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Is she perimenopausal?


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Batman 4691, regret is all part of aging.
Be thankful that your wife's regrets don't 
include twenty years of cheating and
that your marriage bore children that
were actually fathered by you.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> I then realized that since I had retired 5 years ago, I have taken on the dutiful housewife role.


Bingo. I was going to allude to this in the beginning, but you were insistent that both of you were quite pleased with the arrangement. But mid-40s is really young for retirement. You went from a very manly role (cop) to househusband. Even if she logically loves it, subconsciously, it might be a turnoff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> Trying2figure,
> I somewhat agree with what you described above, however, it really gets me further sexually frustrated.
> 
> I also do things for my wife all the time, but I am really not thinking, "If I do this for her, she should be willing to do this for me". In my case, it is just asking to be sitting at the edge of the bed, frustrated and muttering to myself that I thought I did everything right today. I never look at what I do as being a disappointment if I don't get sex. I think that is where you can improve your thought process about your situation.
> ...


You certainly don't tie what you do to sex... what I meant is it makes me intrinsically happy to do things that make my wife happy. That fulfills a 'need' that I made a difference in her life. I never tie something I do to sex... I do it because I want to. I don't feel disappointment if sex doesn't occur on a 'good' day of meeting her needs.

Batman what you have to understand and I want to make this very clear... what you want you can have at some point perhaps . Just not now and not likely soon. First you have to cut through the years of resentment and educate your wife.

In women especially the urge to have sex with their spouses ebbs and flows sometimes over years. Most women won't admit their hormones and such have such a great effect on desiring sex. 

All I can say is you need to do what you can do to improve the situation without being a doormat... over time it does get better usually at a slow pace. However if you are expecting your wife to flip a switch and start lusting after you... I have a bridge to sell you.

What it will be is more of an understanding that this works for the marriage hopefully a light bulb goes off in your wife's head then you both can enjoy sex again. Your wife may NEVER be as into sex as you again, simply because that feeling occurred when things were new and exciting and she was younger without life's pressures... embrace that and work with it. Make it work for both of you and fix the issue.. after all that really is what you are after making each other happiest through your actions.

Its hard being on the "short end" I get that... just remember this is another human another gender. Work it out and don't overly expect something you may not obtain. Be realistic. Usually if you just improve and change the dynamics then you get rewarded eventually. Fight the good fight and count your other joys in life. Your life could be much worse.

That being said... it does not hurt to occasionally discuss the lack in different ways most recoveries I see are based on that... don't give up and do hold your wife accountable. After all you both only have each other to fulfill the sex need... that is part of educating her. The other part the benefits both of you is learning how to communicate effectively and learning how to discuss sensitive topics.

Realize it takes time to create a habit like desiring sex regularly....

_"..The range of time it took people to form habits (specifically, to “reach 95% of their asymptote of automaticity,” and if you don’t have to look up at least one word to understand that, you did better than I did) ranged from 18 days to 254 days, the average being* 66 days*."_

So you can see that habits take a lot of work.... You can look at that and understand its a long road ahead. Don't give up keep working toward the solution.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Hicks said:


> In relation to sex, when left unmanaged by a husband, a wife's thoughts go in very marriage harming directions.


While over generalized, I find a lot of truth in your statement...It seems that women spend a lot of time in introspection about their marriage, their husband, etc....While men tend to cruise along on autopilot if the relationship is even just bearable.......

Toxic GF's are also an issue......

I have overheard more than one "My husband is such a pr!ck" conversations between my wife and one of her friends....

In this case the GF's husband is truly a looser, carrying on an affair with another woman, constantly gone on weeks long hunting and fishing trips, doing nothing around the house, leaving notes wanting a D, with a list of demands and stupid ideas about how the property should be split, constantly openly flirting with other women......

I exhibit none of these behaviors, but after they have a few phone conversations I could see a decline in my wife's attitude about me.....

I wonder if Batmans wife has a toxic GF.....

After reading hundreds of threads I have concluded that for many women sex really didn't mean much to them....At first I was shocked, but after reading thread after thread I have concluded that the soft, warm, sensitive, emotional creatures we take to wife do not have one tenth of the emotional attachment to sex that even the most crude and boorish man does.........

A woman can have an astonishing sex life with her partner, having orgasm after orgasm in hundreds of positions, and circumstances.....A woman can be consumed by sexual desire and crave and beg for sex, and yet her emotional attachment to what might be a long history of great sex is NILL......

Sex is the thread that binds a man to his mate, and he can be full of wonderful memories and special events he will remember his entire life, and his partners attitude would be about the same as her daily trip to the mail box....Women have no emotional attachment to SEX.....

It is only a small drop in hormone levels away from a woman becoming the wife Batman describes.......

Once they get to that stage, only a serious threat to the status quo will convince them that sex in the marriage should indeed be a priority.......

good luck
the woodchuck


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> Hicks,
> thanks for the heads up on "The Man Up and Nice Guy Reference". I will be reading that right after I write this.
> 
> I agree with you that I definitely need to, "man up". It's been long overdue.
> ...


Don't ask your wife what attacted her to you... But she gave you the same answer that I gave you anyway. Confidence.

Do not drag her to a therapist. MAJOR MISTAKE. A confident man tells his wife what he wants in life and expects HER to get there. If she gives you a negative attitude, tell her to stop speaking to you like that. Don't run things by her like you are asking her permissoin. Tell her you are going to the gym again. Or better yet join the gym and just do it, and tell her you did it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Take the words get her to out of your head.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

aug said:


> Is she perimenopausal?


I had to look that one up on WebMD to take a look at the symptoms. I would say yes, that she is experiencing many of the symptoms associated with perimenopause.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

That could certainly be part of it. Plus, some women become considerably more conservative as they age and critical of the things they did when they were young. Not sure why but I've seen it happen.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

hookares said:


> Batman 4691, regret is all part of aging.
> Be thankful that your wife's regrets don't
> include twenty years of cheating and
> that your marriage bore children that
> were actually fathered by you.


hookares,

Sounds like you have experienced a problem(s) in marriage that are so much worse than mine. 
My wife just _regrets_ all the fooling around we did before marriage. Which after 30 years of being together really confuses me, but whatever. 

I can't imagine what your situation has been.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

ginger-snap said:


> Bingo. I was going to allude to this in the beginning, but you were insistent that both of you were quite pleased with the arrangement. But mid-40s is really young for retirement. You went from a very manly role (cop) to househusband. Even if she logically loves it, subconsciously, it might be a turnoff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This reason had crossed my mind several times in the past when I'd find myself running around picking up after everyone. But due to what I had seen and heard from sources like Oprah, Woman's Day magazine, and just the general feministic pop culture out there today, I thought that was what women wanted, isn't it? A man/husband that would clean the house, do the shopping and all the laundry, etc. and just show that he cares in general by helping out around the house. 
So, since I was now home 24/7, the responsibility fell to me. 

I talked with my wife about this subject today, (not including her sex drive), and we came to an arrangement that she agrees with.

I am still going to be the SAHD, with all the duties and responsibilities that I had before, but there will definitely be a change in how I carry them out. 
I use to approach the chores how I'd seen my mom do them. Running around cleaning rooms, collecting laundry, pandering to everyone's needs. I got things done, but it was more genteel in a maid like manner. 

I am going to start running things in a more military mode. For example, if the laundry isn't in the laundry room basket, it isn't getting washed. Stuff like that. 
It is one thing to be responsible for duties at home, but it is another thing to be,..... _the maid_.
I am also starting to delegate out a few chores to my teenage kids. That's a big one she agreed with, my kids not so much.  

It's going to be a new day in our home starting Monday.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> While over generalized, I find a lot of truth in your statement...It seems that women spend a lot of time in introspection about their marriage, their husband, etc....While men tend to cruise along on autopilot if the relationship is even just bearable.......
> 
> Toxic GF's are also an issue......
> 
> ...


Woodchuck,
Thanks for the response. I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I have found that the "toxic GF" syndrome sort of swung the other way for me. 

When my wife had a GF that was going thru marital problems, with what the GF described as an a**hole on par with the likes of Andrew Dice Clay. My wife would appreciate me more because she didn't have the problems with her spouse that her GF was going through.
However, when my wife talked with a GF that was dating or married to Mr. Perfect, and heard about all the oh-so wonderful things he did for her, suddenly I felt I was seen as chopped liver. 

And, what's up with that? If I ever talked about how wonderful another man's wife or GF was I would be sleeping on the couch for a few nights.
How did we ever let them get away with that? :scratchhead:

I agree whole-heartedly. In my experience, woman can take sex or leave it. They have either secretly found that switch inside them that turns off any sexual urge or desire, or they truly have little to no emotional attachment to sex.

In posting on this forum the last few days, I have also researched many ideas presented. One of those being "emotional needs". 
One marriage therapist listed 10 important emotional needs that both men and women, in his study, listed that they felt needed to be met in order to have a fulfilling relationship with their spouse. They are: 

Conversation
Honesty and Openness
Family Commitment
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Affection 
Sexual Fulfillment
Physical Attractiveness
Recreational Companionship
Admiration

According to the therapist, all participants listed these needs as important, but women would generally rank the first five as most important and men the last five as most important.

If you notice the top five are all non-physical in nature, while the bottom five have some physicality associated with them. 
Which just goes to prove that men are just more physical by nature than women.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> Woodchuck,
> Thanks for the response. I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I have found that the "toxic GF" syndrome sort of swung the other way for me.
> 
> When my wife had a GF that was going thru marital problems, with what the GF described as an a**hole on par with the likes of Andrew Dice Clay. My wife would appreciate me more because she didn't have the problems with her spouse that her GF was going through.
> ...


One Truth with that list... when men withhold the any of first five ... he is a loser and a bad guy.

When women withhold/not provide any of the last five... its normal and accepted.

Think about it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Batman4691 said:


> This reason had crossed my mind several times in the past when I'd find myself running around picking up after everyone. But due to what I had seen and heard from sources like Oprah, Woman's Day magazine, and just the general feministic pop culture out there today, I thought that was what women wanted, isn't it? A man/husband that would clean the house, do the shopping and all the laundry, etc. and just show that he cares in general by helping out around the house.


LOL

Oh wait, you're serious? Oprah? Women's Day? This is what you watch/read while you're at home vacuuming? O. M. G.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> One Truth with that list... when men withhold the any of first five ... he is a loser and a bad guy.
> 
> When women withhold/not provide any of the last five... its normal and accepted.


The better question is whether the women are capable of providing, let alone willing. After a very lengthy discussion / argument with the spirited Dr. Mrs. LD I am getting closer to believing she can't do it, not won't do it.

I mean, if a mother can't connect emotionally with her own children, does a husband have a prayer? She writes it off to never having any such connection with her family growing up (the Farawaystan culture's idea of emotional support is deep involvement in each other's personal life for control or finance or power reasons, not feelings of any kind - heck, her own mother came to visit us while we were expecting our first child, stayed with us for four months and promptly left two weeks before birth... Support galore)

Some people are emotional sinks, capable of sucking down others emotions but never providing anything back....


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> LOL
> 
> Oh wait, you're serious? Oprah? Women's Day? This is what you watch/read while you're at home vacuuming? O. M. G.


WorkingOnMe,

Not really, usually I am home alone just 3 days during the week, (wife works three days a week, 12 hour shifts). 
I really don't care for daytime TV, so I busy myself with a project; fixing something, painting something, sanding something, building something, landscaping, weeding, mowing, edging, planting,... you get the idea. 
When my wife comes home in the evening, it's indoor time. That means dishes, laundry, vacuuming, etc. She helps by making the meals. Then it's my turn to clean up.

I've heard that is what women want from Oprah, Dr. Phil, and other daytime TV because my wife sometimes watches these shows during her 4 days off from work every week. (Like I said previously, I doubt she can tell you what my favorite NFL team has been for the last 30 yrs.) 
Although, I've had my fill of Tabitha's Salon Takeover, What Not to Wear, Say Yes to the Dress, How Do I Look, Bridezillas, Toddlers and Tiaras, The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, The Real Housewives of New York, Millionaire Matchmaker, Whose Wedding is it Anyway, A Wedding Story, A Baby Story, Ellen and The Dr. Oz Show, that I am just grateful that she doesn't like "Sex and the City". Dodged that bullet. 

I manage to get to watch a few games on Sunday because she is busy with her church functions.
The Women's Day magazines are laying around the house and when your sitting, alone in the bathroom, there is usually one on a nearby shelf, and I just need something to read.

So, I guess you could say that I am quite the metro sexual, handyman that every woman is supposed to yearn for.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

john117 said:


> The better question is whether the women are capable of providing, let alone willing. After a very lengthy discussion / argument with the spirited Dr. Mrs. LD I am getting closer to believing she can't do it, not won't do it.
> 
> I mean, if a mother can't connect emotionally with her own children, does a husband have a prayer? She writes it off to never having any such connection with her family growing up (the Farawaystan culture's idea of emotional support is deep involvement in each other's personal life for control or finance or power reasons, not feelings of any kind - heck, her own mother came to visit us while we were expecting our first child, stayed with us for four months and promptly left two weeks before birth... Support galore)
> 
> Some people are emotional sinks, capable of sucking down others emotions but never providing anything back....


Wow, I thought my mother-in-law was bad. She stayed with us for 3 months while I was in the police academy and my wife had her hands full with our first child who was 3 weeks premature and 5 lb. 2 oz. 
While staying with us, she slept in until noon, took long shopping trips into the city for herself, had my wife crying into a pillow at night, and turned our kitchen into a vegan's fantasy. I couldn't bring home a piece of meat if I wanted too. 
I did a tap dance in the airport when I left her at the departure gate.

Although, one thing I do secretly thank my mother-in-law for is being so religiously strict with my wife when she was a teenager. 
All teenagers rebel against their parents in one way or another. I think my wife sexually ravished me so much when we dated because, subconsciously, she was rebelling against her mother's puritanical fascism.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not sure I'd want her even for help. She went back and promptly destroyed her other daughter's marriage. The daughter had two children and died in a car accident years later during an EA. The remaining family members are still involved in serious inheritance issues.

With a family background like that sex is the least on anyone's mind. That's why we need Mental CarFax reports for potential mates and their families..


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