# Wife with Midlife Crisis with Affair? Or is that even Relevant?



## ConfusedInCali

Hi folks, great forum and I never would have thought I'd be on here seeking marital advice. I'm so glad there are so many folks here providing sound, unbiased advice. I would like all of your help, and I apologize in advance for the long post but I thought I should be as thorough as possible to optimize feedback.

Here's a bit of a background:

My wife's parents got divorced when she was in her late teens. Her dad verbally and mentally abused her mom, and her mom eventually had an affair. When my wife's dad found out of about the affair, he brought hell to her by physically threatening her, telling all of her friends, etc. Even worse, he got his kids (my wife and her brother) involved by telling them their mom is a *****. My wife has told me years ago it was very dreadful and she wanted her mom to just leave because it got so dangerous and toxic around the house. The divorce process ended up pretty ugly and her parents have not spoken to one another for the last 20+ years. Today, her mom is still with the other man after 20+ years.

My wife and I have been married for 8.5 years now with two kids: 7yo and 5yo. About 2 years ago, we agreed that she quit her job to focus more on the family (school drop-off, pick-up, house chores, cooking) and to allow me to focus on my career. Over the last 2 years, I felt that she got bored quite often. i.e., aside from picking up kids, taking them to sports practices, laundry, running errands - it didn't seem like she had a hobby of her own or anything for herself. In other words, in hindsight, I think she was a ticking time bomb. We talked about this for the last couple of years for her to find a hobby, but she said nothing really interests her. 

She just turned 40 yo back in June of this year. Up until mid-July, I thought everything was fine - we would still do date nights once a month, she would be affectionate at times, we would still be holding hands quite often. However, we both knew there were some issues: we didn't talk much aside from convos about the kids, and we didn't do many things together outside of family activities, and she also complained that I focused too much on work and don't give her very much attention. Our sex lives for years was never that great - 90% of the time I'm the one initiating. Also, for many times she would just allow me to start it reluctantly but most times she would get into it AFTER we start. Nonetheless, it was never ideal where I wanted it more frequently than she wanted. 

Around mid-July, she started acting a bit colder around me. I would give her goodbye kisses and she would turn her head a bit, or if I go near her she would move away (with phone). I didn't think too much of that since she was hooked on Facebook and Candy Crush for nearly a year. Again in hindsight, I should have known. 

So in early August and after a few weeks of feeling something strange, I felt it was time I talked to her. I simply asked her..."Are you happy?" She paused and then started crying pretty hard....said she has been unhappy for nearly 1-2 years now, that I never prioritized my family first (vs. work), that she and I don't have this connection or on the same page. She also started saying that she doesn't have a life, no interests, no job skills (after quitting work 2 years ago), and all she does is for the kids. 

She suggested that we give each other space - that she wants to move out and give us time. I thought about the kids and knew the kids would end up spending more time with her during my work day so I offered to move out instead. I wanted to minimize disruption to our kids' lives. She wanted no part in therapy because she said it does nothing - she even mocked it saying she went to therapy when her parents got a divorce and provided no value. Said she just wants space, and perhaps in the future we could do therapy when she's ready.

So..... in less than 1 month after being completely caught off-guard that it was THIS bad for her... I had moved out in early September. Again, I always knew we had some issues but not to this extent where she was unwilling to work on us, or do any type of therapy for us. 

It has been hell living in a foreign apartment for the last 2 months, and only seeing my kids half the time. Also, for about 1 month after I had moved out, we still hung out quite frequently as a family and I still love her so it was very difficult being in the presence of somebody you want to be with but that she didn't want to be with me. She tells me all the time what an amazing person I am, I deserve better, etc. Basically - I love you but I'm not IN love with you speech. 

Anyhow, about 1 month ago I found that she had some lab tests done. I later discovered it was for STD tests. (The tests results did come out clean.) So I confronted her and asked her if she had sexual interactions with somebody else. She denied it on first ask. Then I asked her again and said I need her to be truthful. She then admitted everything. That she started talking to a 25 yo coach in July that she met through my son's basketball camp. She said it started off just texting as friends, but she later "needed to have sex to find out if that was what was missing in her life". (She claim that it happened only once in Aug or Sep and that she is not romantically in love with him as it could have easily been somebody else as she needed to find out if she was missing lust/sexual excitement.) She also said it was a huge mistake and that she's been going through miserable hell feeling guilty for the whole thing. She said she has cut off ties with him even BEFORE I had confronted her.

I went back and verified phone records and it seems that she is telling the truth. MANY text exchanges with this guy in July and very few in Aug/Sep with the last exchanges being about 3 weeks PRIOR to me confronting her. I demanded that she stop contacting him and we will never be going back to that basketball camp ever again. She agreed and acknowledged that she had already removed him on FB, and asked that they don't contact each other anymore even before I confronted her. The story/timing seems to hold true. 

I really needed to talk to somebody about this, but being the nice guy that I am - I didn't want to ruin her reputation among our friends by talking to them, especially if we were to get back together. I was in complete pain. She suggested that I talk to her brother since her brother is very close to her and of course being siblings will always accept her, even for the mistakes. I talked to her brother and her brother was extremely disappointed in her. I know my wife highly respects her brother so the fact that he knows now, I would imagine she would never do it again to disappoint him.(She almost looks up to him as father figure since her real dad was never a good dad and her bro took care of her as they grew up.)

To this day, she still says she is not ready to work on us, our marriage. She still refuses to go to couples therapy. Says she is not ready. Based on recent phone records and some spying on her laptop, it seems she really has cut off ties with this guy since mid-September but still doesn't want to work on our marriage. I feel like I'm definitely trapped in the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" zone.

Anyhow, I'd like some advice on the following:

-Not sure if it's relevant but is this midlife crisis? Turning 40, questioning self-identity, self-worth, looking at younger men, etc. But if it is midlife crisis, should it be handled differently than general infidelity? (as perhaps she's sick in the head and is completely irrational right now)

-Given that she is unwilling to work on us right now and refuses to go to counseling, although she says she constantly thinks about us in debating whether we should reconcile and if I'm right for her, should I just ignore her and move forward with a divorce? She says that this whole exposure of the affair is actually more harming to our reconcilation (which I agree) because she doesn't want to live the rest of her life feeling guilt with me, feeling she needs to make things up for me, etc. Any thoughts on this too?

-I love her still, as much as I'm angry at her for putting me through this pain - having me move out, affair, etc. but I'm starting to have doubts about getting back with her because of her character itself (outside of the affair even). The thing is, she's VERY attractive even at 40yo looking like a 28yo and she is such a great mother that I always feel warm when we're together as a family. What do I do? Let time do its thing but in the meantime just work on myself? OR should I just not bother with any of this since recovery and reconciliation is nearly impossible and it would end up in a divorce inevitably? 

-There are still some burning questions about the affair that I want to know. But she has a short temper generally and says she doesn't want to talk about it, that it was a huge mistake and that she doesn't want to rehash all of that ever again - especially how painful it was that she is doing exactly what her mom did years ago. She also says that she herself doesn't understand why she did that at all. Although I have these burning questions - should I just drop it all or does psychology say she needs to address them to me or I'll never get over it?


During this time, I've always been in great shape at 37yo (although I've lost a lot of hair so I shave my head bald for years now). But more recently, I've changed my wardrobe to dress nicer, started doing fun things with coworkers, continue working out as I always have, and basically just looking after myself. I've also started to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" as I've seen some posters recommended that. I'm also focused on my kids - making sure they are happy and thank goodness they seem to be acting normal as my wife and I promised that we would not argue, discuss, or have them pick sides. The kids deserve a childhood full of fun and learning and they don't need this sh*t. Nonetheless, I miss my wife that was there pre-July. Today, she and I still have a friendly relationship. We don't hang out very much anymore except for common kids' activities and our Sunday night family dinners that we agreed to do. But aside from that, we're nice to each other with some casual conversation throughout the day, but nothing more. 

Anyhow, that's my story. Would like feedback from those that have seen or experience this type of situation. Thanks in advance!


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## DavidWYoung

It sounds like you are level headed about this. Understand that this is a chapter in your life that is closing and that a new chapter is opening. Good luck and keep us abrest of what is going on. Thanks David.


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## Thound

If it were me I would give her an ultimatum. Either she goes and actively participates in MC or you will file for divorce, but you have to stick to it. In the mean time read "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" it's not about sex, it's about manning up. Move back home, and in the master bedroom. If she wants to leave let her. You will not nice her back. Sorry you are going thru this, but stay strong. Don't be needy or whiny. Be resolute.


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## Mr.Fisty

Just give her the divorce, and let her live her own life.

Make sure you get a fair deal.

Continue to work on yourself, and live life without her.

Prove that you are strong enough to move on, and show the kids, that sometimes you have to leave an unhealthy situation.

It is not your job to fix anyone, and the only person we control are ourselves.

Kids just need stability and a role model to look up too.

Cut back on work, and show your kids that life isn't all about work, but also the connections we make.

Separate, and create your own bank account.

The more you try and reason with her, the more her pride will want to prove that she is right for leaving.

If you can cut this process, your life will be easier.

If she ever wants to return, make her seek help, and you should go see a therapist too.

You have to learn to create a balance between work, home life, and a relationship.

All those require work.


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## Thound

Lots of women go thru perimenopause at around 40. They begin looking back at their life sometimes rewriting history, and wonder "is this all there is to life" they see youth slipping away and for a lack of a better term, they go bat sh1t crazy. It happens all the time. Sadly your wife had an affair, which was very selfish.


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## Thound

​
Oh, if the coach is married, I would let his wife know. I hate to see a SOB get away with this with no repercussions.


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## ConfusedInCali

Thound said:


> If it were me I would give her an ultimatum. Either she goes and actively participates in MC or you will file for divorce, but you have to stick to it. In the mean time read "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" it's not about sex, it's about manning up. Move back home, and in the master bedroom. If she wants to leave let her. You will not nice her back. Sorry you are going thru this, but stay strong. Don't be needy or whiny. Be resolute.


Thanks for this Thound. This is what I was planning to do because I'm not sure if midlife crisis is present and if it requires handling things differently by giving time and space. I was going to give her that space until the end of the year, and if by early January she doesn't initiate conversation for MC, then the ultimatum will be there. I think me moving out since Sept through the end of this year is enough time for her to figure out if she's in or not. And if she's not by early Jan, she's gone and there is no reason to hold onto something that's not there.

I know I can stand by that ultimatum then.


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## ConfusedInCali

Mr.Fisty said:


> Just give her the divorce, and let her live her own life.
> 
> Make sure you get a fair deal.
> 
> Continue to work on yourself, and live life without her.
> 
> Prove that you are strong enough to move on, and show the kids, that sometimes you have to leave an unhealthy situation.
> 
> It is not your job to fix anyone, and the only person we control are ourselves.
> 
> Kids just need stability and a role model to look up too.
> 
> Cut back on work, and show your kids that life isn't all about work, but also the connections we make.
> 
> Separate, and create your own bank account.
> 
> The more you try and reason with her, the more her pride will want to prove that she is right for leaving.
> 
> If you can cut this process, your life will be easier.
> 
> If she ever wants to return, make her seek help, and you should go see a therapist too.
> 
> You have to learn to create a balance between work, home life, and a relationship.
> 
> All those require work.



Thanks, and I've been doing just that regarding cutting back on work to focus on my kids. It has brought a new level of joy and appreciate of my children.


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## Mr.Fisty

Bad move , on moving out, she can use it against you.

Your not playing smart.


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## ConfusedInCali

Thound said:


> Lots of women go thru perimenopause at around 40. They begin looking back at their life sometimes rewriting history, and wonder "is this all there is to life" they see youth slipping away and for a lack of a better term, they go bat sh1t crazy. It happens all the time. Sadly your wife had an affair, which was very selfish.


Yes!! When we first had our conversation about her wanting to move out, she said the same thing... "is this all there is to life"? She also said that perhaps she and I could live as roommates for the rest of our lives and she'll be fine but it wouldn't be fair for either of us.


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## ConfusedInCali

Mr.Fisty said:


> Bad move , on moving out, she can use it against you.
> 
> Your not playing smart.


Yes, agreed. I understand that now. Back then, I didn't have a clue on divorce laws, etc. After I had moved out, I discovered that was a mistake. 

If I force my way back in now, would that change things in the courts or settlements, should it get to that?


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## happy as a clam

Start doing the "180" -- this is a 180 degree shift from many things you've probably been doing in the past.

The 180 is *for you* to begin healing and getting stronger, become more clear-minded; NOT to necessarily *try to win her back.* You can't control her actions, but you CAN control yours:

The 180

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.


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## tom67

Put the POS on cheaterville and send the link to anyone relevent show him consequences.


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## Mr.Fisty

You can move back, it is your home too.

Most likely, she wants you gone to bring her affair partner around.

Tell her if she wants to leave the marriage, then she should leave, afterall she is the one making the decision, not you.


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## Mr.Fisty

Also, cut her funding, so she has to work, when the divorce comes, you won't have to pay alimony or not much.

Also, let her pay for the divorce too, shift the financial burden on her.

The marriage license is only a piece of paper, live like your divorce.

Treat her as you would an ex.


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## NoChoice

CinC,
You are basically divorced now. I assume you are still paying her bills (house, car, insurance, food, etc.) since you said she is unemployed. You are living in an apartment and you see the kids half as often now. How would being divorced be different? She doesn't see her need for you as H, provider and the security you offer. Perhaps you should show her.

Move back home, stop paying her bills and tell her if she wants to leave she is free to do so. How she will pay for it is her problem. It's easy for her to tell you she needs space but it's space that you are paying for! Do you think that is fair to you? Look, she desperately needs a dose of reality and to understand that life without you will not be "do as you please" but will involve working, keeping the kids (during her time with them) and paying all the bills. She is very unappreciative and is taking advantage of you bigtime.

I would tell her that she has had a couple of months to think things out and that you are going ahead with D. If the shock wakes her up to the reality of life without you then you can work on R, if you so choose. If it doesn't, then you can move on and find a woman who would appreciate what you offer.

As I see it your life would not change much from the way it is now if you did divorce only then you could move on. The most fascinating thing to me about this is she saw what happened to her Mom and did the exact same thing, unbelievable.


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## SamuraiJack

NoChoice said:


> CinC,
> As I see it your life would not change much from the way it is now if you did divorce only then you could move on. The most fascinating thing to me about this is she saw what happened to her Mom and did the exact same thing, unbelievable.


She is simply following her default life script.
If she want s to change the outcome, she needs to think her way out of it.

I am often amazed at how people repeat their early circumstances without realizing it.


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## Yeswecan

Sorry this happened. Not what you expected nor deserved. She appears to be sitting on the fence. Start the 180 and prepare D papers. She can be served and you can stop the process later on down the road. This will motivate her to decide. Leaving you in limbo is now a second disrespect for you and the marriage.


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## tom67

Yeswecan said:


> Sorry this happened. Not what you expected nor deserved. She appears to be sitting on the fence. Start the 180 and prepare D papers. She can be served and you can stop the process later on down the road. This will motivate her to decide. Leaving you in limbo is now a second disrespect for you and the marriage.


You should file now it will be months before the first court date.


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## IIJokerII

ConfusedInCali said:


> To this day, she still says she is not ready to work on us, our marriage. She still refuses to go to couples therapy. Says she is not ready. Based on recent phone records and some spying on her laptop, it seems she really has cut off ties with this guy since mid-September but still doesn't want to work on our marriage. I feel like I'm definitely trapped in the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" zone.
> 
> If you feel this way it is because she has made you feel this way and this statement is universally fueled by an affair or yearning for another, which is still an affair. Her cutting off all ties is irrelevant since she may just play the waiting game and say "See, he did have nothing to do with it, it is us, oh well, we tried, bye." If it were only such a short process, she will wait it out to ensure that she can blame the marriage, and not take responsibility for her actions. Do not allow for this. You must also prove to be diligent as she may have just taken this underground and hid it better than you can find it. Try searching other avenues to see what you will find before you sign off that NC is in effect and holding.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, I'd like some advice on the following:
> 
> -Not sure if it's relevant but is this midlife crisis? Turning 40, questioning self-identity, self-worth, looking at younger men, etc. But if it is midlife crisis, should it be handled differently than general infidelity? (as perhaps she's sick in the head and is completely irrational right now)
> 
> Infidelity is an act, choice and behavior, not an ailment due to old age and is just as much of a cop out as ILYBINILWY, You are similar age and do you feel this way? Are you ready to cheat from this Mid life focal point? I didn't think so. Cheating is a choice made from feelings, not age. Hold her accountable and do not let this be used as a scapegoat either.
> 
> -Given that she is unwilling to work on us right now and refuses to go to counseling, although she says she constantly thinks about us in debating whether we should reconcile and if I'm right for her, should I just ignore her and move forward with a divorce? She says that this whole exposure of the affair is actually more harming to our reconcilation (which I agree) because she doesn't want to live the rest of her life feeling guilt with me, feeling she needs to make things up for me, etc. Any thoughts on this too?
> 
> She dislikes exposure since it brings in that aspect cheaters hate, the truth, and the opinions and thoughts from others that cheating elicits. You did not do this so why should you bare the burden of keeping it a secret. She was happy to tell the whole world you were getting married, having kids, getting a house, let her feel the joy of knowing she was or is willing to undue those very things, at her behest. No one likes to be watched while they are smoking crack, so shine the light on the crack-house and expose this, her anger will in time subside as your marriage can tolerate and survive anger, but not infidelity.
> 
> As for the Divorce, if she is unwilling to give into your needs, not wants, for peace of mind and emotional and physical security then you have your answer. Catch a crook stealing you make sure they honor their word by being truthful with transparency, dismiss any argument she presents about this, it just means the affair is on hold or on going. Go on the offensive and then proceed to Divorce. You'll either scare her into surrender or accelerate the separation process without being trapped in limbo and indecision. Since either outcome is out of your hands anyway at the very least you'll know sooner than later and be in control.
> 
> -I love her still, as much as I'm angry at her for putting me through this pain - having me move out, affair, etc. but I'm starting to have doubts about getting back with her because of her character itself (outside of the affair even). The thing is, she's VERY attractive even at 40yo looking like a 28yo and she is such a great mother that I always feel warm when we're together as a family. What do I do? Let time do its thing but in the meantime just work on myself? OR should I just not bother with any of this since recovery and reconciliation is nearly impossible and it would end up in a divorce inevitably?
> 
> What you need to do is decide........Yes, that's it, decide. Reconciliation is great, but it takes extreme effort from the WS to repair any and everything the affair damaged, primarily trust, sure in time it will fade, but never go away in your mind. It also proves that you know what she can do, so it is up to you to risk it. Few do make it though since BS's are all to willing to enable whatever behavior their WS acts out in order to not rock the boat; The absence of conflict will undoubtedly sink the ship, challenge her when you feel you need to.
> 
> -There are still some burning questions about the affair that I want to know. But she has a short temper generally and says she doesn't want to talk about it, that it was a huge mistake and that she doesn't want to rehash all of that ever again - especially how painful it was that she is doing exactly what her mom did years ago. She also says that she herself doesn't understand why she did that at all. Although I have these burning questions - should I just drop it all or does psychology say she needs to address them to me or I'll never get over it?
> 
> If you ignore the check engine light on your car what happens? Nuff said there. As for her understanding, simple, she made a choice as is not the first to cheat and unfortunately not the last. This is also an attempt to find a scapegoat rather than take responsibility of her feelings and actions. By her resistance to talking about it I would say it is also a guilty response since it may be still going on. Talking about it will allow you to retain the memory of the conversation while future conversations will include new additions not previously discussed. Either way, dismissing this will invite more problems, not solve them.
> 
> During this time, I've always been in great shape at 37yo (although I've lost a lot of hair so I shave my head bald for years now). But more recently, I've changed my wardrobe to dress nicer, started doing fun things with coworkers, continue working out as I always have, and basically just looking after myself. I've also started to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" as I've seen some posters recommended that. I'm also focused on my kids - making sure they are happy and thank goodness they seem to be acting normal as my wife and I promised that we would not argue, discuss, or have them pick sides. The kids deserve a childhood full of fun and learning and they don't need this sh*t. Nonetheless, I miss my wife that was there pre-July. Today, she and I still have a friendly relationship. We don't hang out very much anymore except for common kids' activities and our Sunday night family dinners that we agreed to do. But aside from that, we're nice to each other with some casual conversation throughout the day, but nothing more.
> 
> Anyhow, that's my story. Would like feedback from those that have seen or experience this type of situation. Thanks in advance!


She is presently cake eating still, she is around, will cohabit for stability reasons, and enjoys the comfort of home. But her disengagement from you emotionally is due to spending her attention and emotion elsewhere and simply not having enough, or any, left for you. You are also not to blame, for nothing, cheating is a choice they made not you, so make sure to remember this when, not if, you go on the offensive about it. You didn't mean her into an affair so you can't nice her out of it.

You will also be the victim, if you haven't already, of the mental mind fvck called marital history remaking. She will in every attempt try to make sure the marriage was in shambles and her unhappiness was the result of years of neglect, or "checked out" ( WW love using this one) to try to justify her choice. So this falls back on you. What do you believe, that is all that matters to you. How do you remember the truth. You have a right to your perception of what happened in the marriage as much as she, feel free to stand for what you know you feel is true.

For what is's worth, you have a hell of a battle on your hands. You can either fight or submit to this affair. But nobody who gives up ever wins. You know what to do, so do it, today!!!


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## Hardtohandle

Understand this clearly..

YOU CAN DO NOTHING UNLESS SHE COMES TO *YOU* AND IS LOOKING TO MAKE AMENDS AND FIX THIS..

You cannot force someone to reconcile or try to put pressure on her from her brother for example. All it will do is cause her to fake it.. 

Trust me YOU DO NOT WANT HER TO FAKE IT..

It is not fair to you for her to hold you hostage as well.

You can read my story in my signature labeled my mistake. 

The best thing you can do for YOU is move on. The best thing you can do for her to make any sort of move is move on. Only when your wife notices that she is or can loose you will she make any sort of move to fix this.. Like the saying goes, you always want what you can't have.. 

Deep down even if its subconscious your wife knows she has you in her back pocket..

Think about it for a sec and get angry.. She fvcked another guy to see if that is what she was missing from her life.. It doesn't makes sense when you say it and it never will. 

Why don't you go see if maybe its crack that is missing from her life or Heroin. 

Maybe its not sex with another man, it's sex with a woman.. Maybe she is in the closet ?.. 

Do you see how silly that all is ?

Here is the reality.. Either she see's that you're leaving and moving on and rushes to keep you with her or she lets you go.. You or Her leaving is NOT THE END.. You can ALWAYS get back together.. There is no law or rule in life prohibiting you both from getting back together.

Again this stuff is all crazy base instinct stuff. I repeat it is all about wanting what you can't have.. You're just at ground zero and can't see it.

She needs to see that you can walk away.. YOU need to see that you can walk away..

Fake it.. Hint at a date with someone or the *"I'm going out with friends"* but not be specific about the "friends"* Or having dinner with a "friend"*... 

She needs to see that she can lose you too.. 

As for the affair.. fvck her and her getting angry.. SHE FVCKED SOMEONE ELSE.. She lost her rights to be angry.. Her fvcking someone else cancels out that right and privledge.. The only reason she is getting angry because she doesn't want you to talk about it and get angry with her. Its reverse psychology even if she doesn't realize it.. Every wayward does it.. 

Keep posting


----------



## badmemory

Confused,

You have essentially allowed yourself to be her plan B. She wanted the separation so she could explore this and other relationships, while feeling assured you will be there if they don't work out. She also wants to avoid any consequences from her A, and while she's apart from you that's much easier for her to do. She is not remorseful.

There's only a small chance that your marriage can be saved, but only if you're willing to end it right *now*.

Move back in the house - tell her since she's the one that cheated she can be the one to leave. Implement the 180 to detach and stay away from her as much as you can, given your children. Go see an attorney to start the D and have her served asap. Let that be a surprise for her.

Expose her to her family and expose him to his wife or SO if he has one. Don't tell her you're going to do it, just do it.

This will either turn her around or she can't be turned around. If it does, come back here for more advice on the consequences she will need to accept, IF you're still wanting to R. If it doesn't, finish the divorce and start a new life.

You've made it too easy for her. Stop being the nice guy.


----------



## Chaparral

Read as much here as fast as you can.

Read the MMSLP book linked to below. It can also be downloaded immediately at amazon.

The odds she is telling the truth about one time is about as good as finding hens teeth in a bucket of fried chicken. We hear that all the time.

She didn't get you out of the way for a one night stand.

The way she's acting she probably has someone besides you on her mind.

Leave a hat in her car and the house.

Move back in, let her sleep on the couch, this is part of manning up.

Btw, letting her off the hook for cheating makes you very unattractive to her. Only a wuss toes line for a cheater and she knows it.

Is the coach married or have a girlfriend?

The only time you now believe anything she says is if you independently verify it.

Did I mention she goes back to work now?


----------



## ConfusedInCali

happy as a clam said:


> Start doing the "180" -- this is a 180 degree shift from many things you've probably been doing in the past.
> 
> The 180 is *for you* to begin healing and getting stronger, become more clear-minded; NOT to necessarily *try to win her back.* You can't control her actions, but you CAN control yours:


Sounds like the 180 is all about being nonchalant about everything, as if you don't care anymore and you've moved on? 

Question then: the 180 seems to be a tactic used to protect oneself and work on oneself, but the byproduct is that you could win her back (although that isn't the core objective). However, if there isn't reconciliation, that's fine too as one would have already moved on by inducing the 180?

Also, is there some psychology thing around this? I've read this in other threads here as well.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

NoChoice said:


> CinC,
> You are basically divorced now. I assume you are still paying her bills (house, car, insurance, food, etc.) since you said she is unemployed. You are living in an apartment and you see the kids half as often now. How would being divorced be different? She doesn't see her need for you as H, provider and the security you offer. Perhaps you should show her.
> 
> Move back home, stop paying her bills and tell her if she wants to leave she is free to do so. How she will pay for it is her problem. It's easy for her to tell you she needs space but it's space that you are paying for! Do you think that is fair to you? Look, she desperately needs a dose of reality and to understand that life without you will not be "do as you please" but will involve working, keeping the kids (during her time with them) and paying all the bills. She is very unappreciative and is taking advantage of you bigtime.
> 
> I would tell her that she has had a couple of months to think things out and that you are going ahead with D. If the shock wakes her up to the reality of life without you then you can work on R, if you so choose. If it doesn't, then you can move on and find a woman who would appreciate what you offer.
> 
> As I see it your life would not change much from the way it is now if you did divorce only then you could move on. The most fascinating thing to me about this is she saw what happened to her Mom and did the exact same thing, unbelievable.



Good points. This is exactly how I've been feeling for the last 2 months living in my apartment - that we are practically divorced as is - splitting time with kids, living separately, etc. The only thing is that she still has it good. 

In terms of finances though - yes, she doesn't work but has the luxury of rental income from her dad's property which contributes about 1/3 of our total household income. Truth is, even if we got a divorce, it'll likely be that she won't be hit that hard financially since courts will likely force me to give her an amount so that our incomes are equivalent? (I think that's how it works?) 

The shock, though, will be more symbolic than financial - me calling it quits and not be her safety net? I think that's how it plays out???


----------



## ConfusedInCali

Yeswecan said:


> Sorry this happened. Not what you expected nor deserved. She appears to be sitting on the fence. Start the 180 and prepare D papers. She can be served and you can stop the process later on down the road. This will motivate her to decide. Leaving you in limbo is now a second disrespect for you and the marriage.


How does one file for divorce without an attorney? To be honest, although I know most cases it turns ugly once the process begins.... I do believe that we can mediate on our own. I also understand people start acting irrationally once the process beings. I'm confident this wont' be our scenario, and I'm a believer that divorce attorneys are the scummiest and will take the majority of the assets from us. 

She has worked throughout our entire marriage up until 2 years ago. Also, our total assets/savings is likely about 50/50 as she had lots of stock options that contributed to our house. I genuinely think it'll end up being a 50/50 split.


----------



## Yeswecan

Yes, a safety net. Also known as plan B. Don't be plan B. Safety net is over. Door mat is done. Focus on the kids and yourself.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I am not sure if this is your case.

When couples get married, sometimes, they start melding their identity with their spouse.

Losing that spouse is like losing a part of themselves.

At first it will be hard to separate, but the more independent you were from your marriage, the easier it might be.

Also the 180 helps remove the bond we have with that person.

The way relationships work, especially for marriages,you have to expend time and energy to maintain that bond, other than that it will dissipate.

When your detaching, most have a clearer view of the picture before them.


----------



## bandit.45

ConfusedInCali said:


> Sounds like the 180 is all about being nonchalant about everything, as if you don't care anymore and you've moved on?
> 
> Question then: the 180 seems to be a tactic used to protect oneself and work on oneself, but the byproduct is that you could win her back (although that isn't the core objective). However, if there isn't reconciliation, that's fine too as one would have already moved on by inducing the 180?
> 
> Also, is there some psychology thing around this? I've read this in other threads here as well.



Think Spock. What would Spock do? 

The 180 is about detaching. Becoming emotionally independent of a person who's validation you once depended on. Now that your WW cannot be depended on anymore, you need to move towards emotional independence. 

The 180 is not about being mean or rude. It's about no longer initiating with her any more. If she wants to initiate, let her. Listen to her, but never, ever, ever give her an immediate answer. Just smile an say..."I will consider what you've said". Then walk away. It's about not engaging in an emotional level. 

The 180 is about the process of starting your life over as a single. You should begin thinking of yourself as single NOW. If you start thinking it, you will start acting it. 

Occasionally....very rarely actually, the 180 has resulted in the WS saying to his/herself "Hey! Why is my BS acting like he already has one foot out the door? What's with this weight loss and going out on weekends without me? Why isn't he paying attention to me anymore? Why can't I get a rise out of him? Oh crap! Maybe he's serious about moving on without me! This wasn't supposed to happen! He was supposed to be there for me when I got done having my fun! I think I better re-think what I'm doing here!"

Rarely...that happens. Don't expect it.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I don't believe that a MLC is real. Yes, I know people go off the deep end, but I think people use this as an excuse to act badly as opposed to actually having a mental break that causes them to lose all reason.


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## ConfusedInCali

Chaparral said:


> Read as much here as fast as you can.
> 
> Read the MMSLP book linked to below. It can also be downloaded immediately at amazon.
> 
> The odds she is telling the truth about one time is about as good as finding hens teeth in a bucket of fried chicken. We hear that all the time.
> 
> She didn't get you out of the way for a one night stand.
> 
> The way she's acting she probably has someone besides you on her mind.
> 
> Leave a hat in her car and the house.
> 
> Move back in, let her sleep on the couch, this is part of manning up.
> 
> Btw, letting her off the hook for cheating makes you very unattractive to her. Only a wuss toes line for a cheater and she knows it.
> 
> Is the coach married or have a girlfriend?
> 
> The only time you now believe anything she says is if you independently verify it.
> 
> Did I mention she goes back to work now?



BTW, what is MMSLP mostly about? Getting sex from spouse, or generally how to handle a wife's lack of love for the husband?

What's the best way to leave a hat? You mean like a voice recorder? Any recs for that?

If the divorce is going to happen, why move back? The downside too is that if I break my lease now, it'll be 2 months of rent as penalty for breaking leasing agreement.

Not sure if the coach has wife or gf. Never met him in person as my wife dropped off my son for practice at that academy. His FB page is also very limited.

Her going back to work...she still has rental income of her own that is about 30% of our total household income. Do I cut her off the 70%? The damage is minimal to her since it's just a 20% loss. BTW, to her money has always been something she worried less about due to her rich dad. Gives me less leverage.


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## ConfusedInCali

bandit.45 said:


> Think Spock. What would Spock do?
> 
> Occasionally....very rarely actually, the 180 has resulted in the WS saying to his/herself "Hey! Why is my BS acting like he already has one foot out the door? What's with this weight loss and going out on weekends without me? Why isn't he paying attention to me anymore? Why can't I get a rise out of him? Oh crap! Maybe he's serious about moving on without me! This wasn't supposed to happen! He was supposed to be there for me when I got done having my fun! I think I better re-think what I'm doing here!"
> 
> Rarely...that happens. Don't expect it.


So the 180 is about moving on, as you said. And it sounds like the odds of any reconciliation is very very slim in my case. That is fine and I can accept that. I'm just an analyst at heart and want to know how that works.


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## Sports Fan

Sorry you are going through this. Seriously though if you truly want to save your marriage you must first be prepared to capsize the boat and destroy her cosy little world.

Your wife is in affair fog. Unfortunately you have offered up no consequences of whatsoever for her foul behavour hence she now thinks she can get away with whatever she wants.

The reality is she probably slept with the coach many more times than she will admit. Thats the reason she wanted space and for you to move out, so she can go on unaffected by your presence, and you moving out made it easier for wife to keep seeing this guy.

If it were me i would stop supporting her immediately, Financially, emotionally, whatever. If you own your house put it up for sale. I would do a complete 180 on her see a good divorce lawyer and have her served. By doing this you are signalling you will not tolerate this foul behavour and her cosy little world as she knows it is about to be drastically changed.

Worst case scenario you stop enabling her behavour at the expense of your family, best case scenario it eventually snaps her out of the fog and she realises all she had is about to be flushed down the toilet permenantly.


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## helolover

You're flying blind without a lawyer. You need legal advice now. You have real estate, assets and most importantly kids. All divorce lawyers are not dirt bags. You get what you pay for. Don't cheap out - you will lose big time. 

Your wife is no longer attracted to you or respects you. She flippantly screwed another guy 15 years younger. She never planned on telling you. She has no respect for you. I'm sure it was very validating for her. Sex was going to fill in the holes in her life? 

You became too familiar with her. Comfortable and like a brother or roomie. You dropped your mystery and your natural swagger - the things that initially aroused her and attracted her to you. Many men make the same mistake. Men drop every interest and hobby they have and take on the provider role. We kiss our wives' asses to keep the peace. We fail the ****e tests and lose our attraction. Don't sweat - you're in great company. 

I suggest you read a lot. MMSLP is ok. Also read the rational male. In summary, it's about being a confident individual who has their stuff together and is the leader of the household. You meet your own needs and lead your own mission in life. Your wife (or any woman) shouldn't be your entire life's mission. Picture the whole man you want to be - become that guy. Make your own life. If you're not in shape, do something about it. 

Your choice is reconciliation or divorce. Don't live in limbo waiting for her to come around. You gave her space and she had an affair. She's told you who she is. Words < actions. As far as MLC I believe it. The more you try and convince her of her crisis, the more she will pull away. The bottom line is she is going to do whatever she wants. You cannot change her. Work on changing yourself. Minimize contact and keep it to discussions about the kids. When you have your kids, enjoy every minute.

Get therapy for yourself.


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## bandit.45

ConfusedInCali said:


> So the 180 is about moving on, as you said. And it sounds like the odds of any reconciliation is very very slim in my case. That is fine and I can accept that. I'm just an analyst at heart and want to know how that works.


You need to train your brain to believe the marriage is already over. Now if you are already divorced in your mind, are you going to kill yourself wondering what she's up to? No. You are already looking for new opportunities for your future, discovering new interests and reviving old hobbies, reconnecting with old friends you gave up to be with her...

See where I'm going? Free your mind and your ass will follow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

She had the affair.

She kicked you out.

You know no other details than what she told you 

and you are trying to win her back ?

The prize does seem to be as good as you think it is


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## Tobyboy

File and expose her cheating!!! I bet daddy will think twice about supporting her after finding out that his daughter is the same kind of skank as her mother. 

Your still young, find yourself a decent woman!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sidney2718

ConfusedInCali said:


> Hi folks, great forum and I never would have thought I'd be on here seeking marital advice. I'm so glad there are so many folks here providing sound, unbiased advice. I would like all of your help, and I apologize in advance for the long post but I thought I should be as thorough as possible to optimize feedback.
> 
> Here's a bit of a background:
> 
> My wife's parents got divorced when she was in her late teens. Her dad verbally and mentally abused her mom, and her mom eventually had an affair. When my wife's dad found out of about the affair, he brought hell to her by physically threatening her, telling all of her friends, etc. Even worse, he got his kids (my wife and her brother) involved by telling them their mom is a *****. My wife has told me years ago it was very dreadful and she wanted her mom to just leave because it got so dangerous and toxic around the house. The divorce process ended up pretty ugly and her parents have not spoken to one another for the last 20+ years. Today, her mom is still with the other man after 20+ years.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for 8.5 years now with two kids: 7yo and 5yo. About 2 years ago, we agreed that she quit her job to focus more on the family (school drop-off, pick-up, house chores, cooking) and to allow me to focus on my career. Over the last 2 years, I felt that she got bored quite often. i.e., aside from picking up kids, taking them to sports practices, laundry, running errands - it didn't seem like she had a hobby of her own or anything for herself. In other words, in hindsight, I think she was a ticking time bomb. We talked about this for the last couple of years for her to find a hobby, but she said nothing really interests her.
> 
> She just turned 40 yo back in June of this year. Up until mid-July, I thought everything was fine - we would still do date nights once a month, she would be affectionate at times, we would still be holding hands quite often. However, we both knew there were some issues: we didn't talk much aside from convos about the kids, and we didn't do many things together outside of family activities, and she also complained that I focused too much on work and don't give her very much attention. Our sex lives for years was never that great - 90% of the time I'm the one initiating. Also, for many times she would just allow me to start it reluctantly but most times she would get into it AFTER we start. Nonetheless, it was never ideal where I wanted it more frequently than she wanted.
> 
> Around mid-July, she started acting a bit colder around me. I would give her goodbye kisses and she would turn her head a bit, or if I go near her she would move away (with phone). I didn't think too much of that since she was hooked on Facebook and Candy Crush for nearly a year. Again in hindsight, I should have known.
> 
> So in early August and after a few weeks of feeling something strange, I felt it was time I talked to her. I simply asked her..."Are you happy?" She paused and then started crying pretty hard....said she has been unhappy for nearly 1-2 years now, that *I never prioritized my family first (vs. work)*, that she and I don't have this connection or on the same page. *She also started saying that she doesn't have a life, no interests, no job skills (after quitting work 2 years ago), and all she does is for the kids.*
> 
> She suggested that we give each other space - that she wants to move out and give us time. I thought about the kids and knew the kids would end up spending more time with her during my work day so I offered to move out instead. I wanted to minimize disruption to our kids' lives. She wanted no part in therapy because she said it does nothing - she even mocked it saying she went to therapy when her parents got a divorce and provided no value. Said she just wants space, and perhaps in the future we could do therapy when she's ready.
> 
> So..... in less than 1 month after being completely caught off-guard that it was THIS bad for her... I had moved out in early September. Again, I always knew we had some issues but not to this extent where she was unwilling to work on us, or do any type of therapy for us.
> 
> It has been hell living in a foreign apartment for the last 2 months, and only seeing my kids half the time. Also, for about 1 month after I had moved out, we still hung out quite frequently as a family and I still love her so it was very difficult being in the presence of somebody you want to be with but that she didn't want to be with me. She tells me all the time what an amazing person I am, I deserve better, etc. Basically - I love you but I'm not IN love with you speech.
> 
> Anyhow, about 1 month ago I found that she had some lab tests done. I later discovered it was for STD tests. (The tests results did come out clean.) So I confronted her and asked her if she had sexual interactions with somebody else. She denied it on first ask. Then I asked her again and said I need her to be truthful. She then admitted everything. That she started talking to a 25 yo coach in July that she met through my son's basketball camp. She said it started off just texting as friends, but she later "needed to have sex to find out if that was what was missing in her life". (She claim that it happened only once in Aug or Sep and that she is not romantically in love with him as it could have easily been somebody else as she needed to find out if she was missing lust/sexual excitement.) She also said it was a huge mistake and that she's been going through miserable hell feeling guilty for the whole thing. She said she has cut off ties with him even BEFORE I had confronted her.
> 
> I went back and verified phone records and it seems that she is telling the truth. MANY text exchanges with this guy in July and very few in Aug/Sep with the last exchanges being about 3 weeks PRIOR to me confronting her. I demanded that she stop contacting him and we will never be going back to that basketball camp ever again. She agreed and acknowledged that she had already removed him on FB, and asked that they don't contact each other anymore even before I confronted her. The story/timing seems to hold true.
> 
> I really needed to talk to somebody about this, but being the nice guy that I am - I didn't want to ruin her reputation among our friends by talking to them, especially if we were to get back together. I was in complete pain. She suggested that I talk to her brother since her brother is very close to her and of course being siblings will always accept her, even for the mistakes. I talked to her brother and her brother was extremely disappointed in her. I know my wife highly respects her brother so the fact that he knows now, I would imagine she would never do it again to disappoint him.(She almost looks up to him as father figure since her real dad was never a good dad and her bro took care of her as they grew up.)
> 
> To this day, she still says she is not ready to work on us, our marriage. She still refuses to go to couples therapy. Says she is not ready. Based on recent phone records and some spying on her laptop, it seems she really has cut off ties with this guy since mid-September but still doesn't want to work on our marriage. I feel like I'm definitely trapped in the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" zone.
> 
> Anyhow, I'd like some advice on the following:
> 
> -Not sure if it's relevant but is this midlife crisis? Turning 40, questioning self-identity, self-worth, looking at younger men, etc. But if it is midlife crisis, should it be handled differently than general infidelity? (as perhaps she's sick in the head and is completely irrational right now)
> 
> -Given that she is unwilling to work on us right now and refuses to go to counseling, although she says she constantly thinks about us in debating whether we should reconcile and if I'm right for her, should I just ignore her and move forward with a divorce? She says that this whole exposure of the affair is actually more harming to our reconcilation (which I agree) because she doesn't want to live the rest of her life feeling guilt with me, feeling she needs to make things up for me, etc. Any thoughts on this too?
> 
> -I love her still, as much as I'm angry at her for putting me through this pain - having me move out, affair, etc. but I'm starting to have doubts about getting back with her because of her character itself (outside of the affair even). The thing is, she's VERY attractive even at 40yo looking like a 28yo and she is such a great mother that I always feel warm when we're together as a family. What do I do? Let time do its thing but in the meantime just work on myself? OR should I just not bother with any of this since recovery and reconciliation is nearly impossible and it would end up in a divorce inevitably?
> 
> -There are still some burning questions about the affair that I want to know. But she has a short temper generally and says she doesn't want to talk about it, that it was a huge mistake and that she doesn't want to rehash all of that ever again - especially how painful it was that she is doing exactly what her mom did years ago. She also says that she herself doesn't understand why she did that at all. Although I have these burning questions - should I just drop it all or does psychology say she needs to address them to me or I'll never get over it?
> 
> 
> During this time, I've always been in great shape at 37yo (although I've lost a lot of hair so I shave my head bald for years now). But more recently, I've changed my wardrobe to dress nicer, started doing fun things with coworkers, continue working out as I always have, and basically just looking after myself. I've also started to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" as I've seen some posters recommended that. I'm also focused on my kids - making sure they are happy and thank goodness they seem to be acting normal as my wife and I promised that we would not argue, discuss, or have them pick sides. The kids deserve a childhood full of fun and learning and they don't need this sh*t. Nonetheless, I miss my wife that was there pre-July. Today, she and I still have a friendly relationship. We don't hang out very much anymore except for common kids' activities and our Sunday night family dinners that we agreed to do. But aside from that, we're nice to each other with some casual conversation throughout the day, but nothing more.
> 
> Anyhow, that's my story. Would like feedback from those that have seen or experience this type of situation. Thanks in advance!


I'm not excusing her "affair" or ONS as she seems to insist. She has many issues to deal with. But if you reread what you wrote, especially the bits I've highlighted, you can see that there really are issues that she cannot solve all by herself.

Divorce is easy. All it needs is one person to file. So if that is really what you want, go for it, but be prepared to shell out for child support and quite possibly spousal support.

If you are interested in a reconciliation remember that it takes TWO to reconcile. So you have to make some changes too. If you really want a reconciliation, I'd start with curing the bit about prioritizing work over your family. That's a common problem and a deadly disease to a marriage. Once she sees that you are trying as well, you quite possibly can get her to talk about details. Be honest with her by telling her that you can't put your heart into reconciliation without knowing the extent of the problem. Don't rugsweep it because it will then never go away.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Nucking Futs

sidney2718 said:


> I'm not excusing her "affair" or ONS as she seems to insist. She has many issues to deal with. But if you reread what you wrote, especially the bits I've highlighted, you can see that there really are issues that she cannot solve all by herself.
> 
> Divorce is easy. All it needs is one person to file. So if that is really what you want, go for it, but be prepared to shell out for child support and *quite possibly spousal support.*
> 
> If you are interested in a reconciliation remember that it takes TWO to reconcile. So you have to make some changes too. If you really want a reconciliation, I'd start with curing the bit about prioritizing work over your family. That's a common problem and a deadly disease to a marriage. Once she sees that you are trying as well, you quite possibly can get her to talk about details. Be honest with her by telling her that you can't put your heart into reconciliation without knowing the extent of the problem. Don't rugsweep it because it will then never go away.
> 
> Just my two cents.


There will almost certainly be spousal support ordered, but with a marriage less than 10 years it should be no longer than half the length of the marriage, so less than 5 years. The longer you let this go without filing the longer you'll have to pay alimony, and if she manages to stall you past the 10 year mark it could end up permanent.


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## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> There will almost certainly be spousal support ordered, but with a marriage less than 10 years it should be no longer than half the length of the marriage, so less than 5 years. The longer you let this go without filing the longer you'll have to pay alimony, and if she manages to stall you past the 10 year mark it could end up permanent.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
After a certain amount of time there can be lifetime alimony in your state so go see an attorney heck go see 2 or 3 and get educated because you have 2 strikes against you...
You are a male
You are the breadwinner.
Prepare NOW!


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## thatbpguy

It really seems she fell out of love with you some time ago and really doesn't want to stay married. 

Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the bottom line.


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## TRy

@OP: Let me get this straight. You work to pay the bills, she is a stay at home mom, she has you move out of the house, cheats on you for no other reason than she wanted see what it was like, and now feels that she gets to decide if the marriage continues or not? And your response to all of this is that you agree to this as long as she decides by the end of the year? Dude, she is a cheater without even the smallest bit of remorse. Since she decided to end the affair, she no longer thinks that it matters. In fact you protect her by not telling anyone but her brother and wait patiently for her to decide. If you act like a doormat, do not be surprised when she walks all over you.

Read other posts in the infidelity section, and you will see that the timing of the other man entering her life and her wanting space is not a coincidence. Although cheaters will reinvent history to say that the other man had nothing to do with them falling out of love with you, that is usually not the case, as her affair had everything to do with her falling out of love with you. Please understand that when she started texting this other man she fell into an emotional affair (EA). People in EAs almost always fall out of love with their spouse and tell them that they need space. They do this because they are in an EA fog. Even if they did not have sex, which you know that they did, an EA is cheating even without the sex. She had an affair behind your back. She lied to you. She began looking to find fault with you to rationalize blaming her cheating on you. Since as a human no one is perfect, there will always be a reason that a cheater can find to blame you. 

Unless she begs for forgiveness and agrees to go forward on your terms, you should file for divorce and not look back. If she as the cheater gets to dictate the terms of reconciliation, like you are allowing her to do, it will not end well for you.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

sidney2718 said:


> I'm not excusing her "affair" or ONS as she seems to insist. She has many issues to deal with. But if you reread what you wrote, especially the bits I've highlighted, you can see that there really are issues that she cannot solve all by herself.
> 
> Divorce is easy. All it needs is one person to file. So if that is really what you want, go for it, but be prepared to shell out for child support and quite possibly spousal support.
> 
> If you are interested in a reconciliation remember that it takes TWO to reconcile. So you have to make some changes too. If you really want a reconciliation, I'd start with curing the bit about prioritizing work over your family. That's a common problem and a deadly disease to a marriage. Once she sees that you are trying as well, you quite possibly can get her to talk about details. Be honest with her by telling her that you can't put your heart into reconciliation without knowing the extent of the problem. Don't rugsweep it because it will then never go away.
> 
> Just my two cents.


I appreciate everybody's input, and that everybody is keeping it real with no sugarcoating. 

That said, since I moved out she started doing things more for herself - be it working out and being healthy (or perhaps just to look good to get other dudes), and she will be going back to school to start a new career next week. I'm glad that she is doing things for herself. I dunno, I really think she got bored and needs something for herself as well in order for any hope of reconciliation. My feeling is that she needs to be happy with herself before she can be happy with anybody else. 

Why do I want reconciliation as you may ask? I think it's the warmth of the experiences that we've had as a family - although some part of me recognizes she is NOT that same person anymore and has died when she committed adultery.

Personally, I'm just the nice guy, and I understand nice guys finish last. I'm also in the middle of reading "No more Mr. Nice Guy". I just value history and tend to be very loyal (to everybody close to me - even friends that have changed over the years). I know i'm a sucker for that but that's just how I've been and recognize I need to change.

For the last few weeks, I've prioritized my kids over my work, updated my wardrobe, stopped wearing my wedding band, started being more open and social with folks, reached out to old friends, started attending classes for personal development and interest, and in some ways I generally feel a bit more detached to her than say 2 weeks ago. Nonetheless, I'll be honest and say I still love her very dearly. 

Here is a question I asked myself over the last few weeks: 
I am very attracted to her as I think she's beautiful. I asked myself: given her personality, what she has done to me with all this pain, and imagine IF she wasn't as attractive would I still be with her today? The truth is that it's unlikely. I would have dropped her already. Sad, but I just wanted to keep that part real as well.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

TRy said:


> @OP: Let me get this straight. You work to pay the bills, she is a stay at home mom, she has you move out of the house, cheats on you for no other reason than she wanted see what it was like, and now feels that she gets to decide if the marriage continues or not? And your response to all of this is that you agree to this as long as she decides by the end of the year? Dude, she is a cheater without even the smallest bit of remorse. Since she decided to end the affair, she no longer thinks that it matters. In fact you protect her by not telling anyone but her brother and wait patiently for her to decide. If you act like a doormat, do not be surprised when she walks all over you.
> 
> Read other posts in the infidelity section, and you will see that the timing of the other man entering her life and her wanting space is not a coincidence. Although cheaters will reinvent history to say that the other man had nothing to do with them falling out of love with you, that is usually not the case, as her affair had everything to do with her falling out of love with you. Please understand that when she started texting this other man she fell into an emotional affair (EA). People in EAs almost always fall out of love with their spouse and tell them that they need space. They do this because they are in an EA fog. Even if they did not have sex, which you know that they did, an EA is cheating even without the sex. She had an affair behind your back. She lied to you. She began looking to find fault with you to rationalize blaming her cheating on you. Since as a human no one is perfect, there will always be a reason that a cheater can find to blame you.
> 
> Unless she begs for forgiveness and agrees to go forward on your terms, you should file for divorce and not look back. If she as the cheater gets to dictate the terms of reconciliation, like you are allowing her to do, it will not end well for you.


Everything you said makes sense, especially the last paragraph. It's something I'm highly considering of doing the next time within the week. In fact, I was just researching on how to file for a divorce in California. I know I need to stay strong and follow this through. Everything in the last paragraph is logical.


----------



## Chaparral

Cat=var in iphone auto correct. She just doesn't sound like someone that's ended an affair.

If you are from California aliimony could be big. Get real legal advice. Try dadsdivorce.com for good advice.

This is a good reason for moving back and insisting she get a job. Almost sounds like she is setting you up for a fall.


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## NoChoice

OP,
You said you were an analyst at heart. Consider the "rich person" syndrome. People of affluence are not bound by the limitations that regular folks are. If they want something they get it because they can.

Their appreciation of things is very little or none at all, easy come, east go. Since there was no significant effort required in getting it, then there is no significant remorse in losing it. And, because they see anything they want as attainable, they have little regard for what they have and become "bored", as you put it, very easily. 

They have had, and therefore continue to need, new and exciting in order to make them "happy". But it never does and so they are off to the next new and exciting thing. A line from the song "Gonna Soak Up the Sun" says "life's not about getting what you want, it's about wanting what you've got" and until she understands that concept she will always be chasing the next great thing to make her "happy". She needs to understand how important her family is.

The reason happy is in quotes is because true happiness comes from within and what she is seeking is a way to find it outside of herself and that can't happen. Until she learns contentment and satisfaction with herself and her life, she will continue on this destructive quest for the next great thing.


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## bandit.45

ConfusedInCali said:


> Everything you said makes sense, especially the last paragraph. It's something I'm highly considering of doing the next time within the week. In fact, I was just researching on how to file for a divorce in California. I know I need to stay strong and follow this through. Everything in the last paragraph is logical.


You should have filed for divorce the week she kicked you out. Now here you are playing catch up. 

You are very passive, and she is using your passive nature against you. If you do not start getting proactive, you are going to get a hosing my friend. 

Where is your anger? Aren't you just a little pissed off that this woman you are so over the moon about has destroyed you and blown up your family? :scratchhead:


----------



## Mr.Fisty

When it comes to your wife, you have to adopt a cold and calculating persona. 

Emotions will screw with your logic. They will fluctuate a lot,, making you indecisive. 

Fact is, since your on this forum, your already behind.

Use the cold logic from a neutral brain.


----------



## Yeswecan

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> 
> 
> 
> They have had, and therefore continue to need, new and exciting in order to make them "happy". But it never does and so they are off to the next new and exciting thing. A line from the song "Gonna Soak Up the Sun" says "life's not about getting what you want, it's about wanting what you've got" and until she understands that concept she will always be chasing the next great thing to make her "happy". She needs to understand how important her family is.


Sometimes once the person understands how important their family is it is to late.


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## tulsy

ConfusedInCali said:


> ... since I moved out she started doing things more for herself - be it working out and being healthy (or perhaps just to look good to get other dudes), and she will be going back to school to start a new career next week. I'm glad that she is doing things for herself. I dunno, I really think she got bored and needs something for herself as well in order for any hope of reconciliation. My feeling is that she needs to be happy with herself before she can be happy with anybody else. ....


Of course...She got what she wanted; You out of the picture, but still funding her life. No doubt she started doing more things for herself...she's a selfish cheater; "self" is her priority, and your marriage is not even on her radar anymore.

File for divorce and 180. I would move back home and maybe take over the basement, while you fix up the place to sell it. Ignore her as much as possible...stop being her buddy. 

Take some action, dude. You can't control her, and even if you could, you wouldn't want to; you'd just want her to love you unforced. The only thing you can control is what you do, and what direction your life takes. Start steering your life in a different direction because she's not coming with you.


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## ConfusedInCali

Yes, as the OP I am very angry. And yes, I haven't done anything about it and playing catch-up.

That said, I will be moving forward with divorce paperwork. Truth is, I do want reconciliation because I'm still emotionally attached to her and our family, as a unit. However, I have been living in a divorced situation since I've been living separately, kids coming over half the week, etc. 

Let's say I move forward with divorce and do want reconciliation - I could present to her the divorce news in different ways. What is the most effective way to present this to her? Tell her I'm filing? Or just do it and tell her I did it? If I'm looking for reconciliation and to get her out of the fog, what is the best approach? I know if there is any reconciliation desire from her, it needs to be under MY terms.

I do understand that if I do this, I need to be prepared that we could be done, period. And I'm ok with that. I just want to know what is the best approach to this in communicating divorce to her.


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## bandit.45

File for divorce. Don't say a word. Have her served at work in front of her peers. She'll die...


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## ConanHub

Expose her like Bandit said. Swift, hard action and some humiliation have the best chance to snap her out of it.

You need to alpha up and start getting things on your terms.

What she wants stopped mattering the moment she decided she wanted another penis in her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice

Exactly as has been said. Have her served in public and totally by surprise. And be prepared to be strong and don't cave at the first sign of bending on her part. If she does realize what she is losing she will fight to save it and only then can you know it's sincere. Hang tough.

And you can rest in the knowledge that if she does let it go through and you two do D, then it was destined to happen anyway because her heart simply was not in it.


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## ConfusedInCali

Here's my and my best friend's argument against humiliation: if I do want reconciliation, how does humiliation help? I would think that she wouldn't want to reconcile if it's publicly exposed as she would be concerned about being judged by our friends when we're together.

However, yes if it's clear she does NOT want reconciliation and doesn't even fight for us to even TRY reconciliation, then yes I see no reason to hold back and would expose her to all those around us.

I would think by exposing her to our friends and all, that would more likely drive her away from even wanting to try reconciliation, no?

I put myself in her shoes....if i had cheated and was on the fence about reconciliation and she told all of our friends, I think I would be too humiliated around my friends to want to get back with her. The guilt, and the fear of how my friends would constantly view me when I'm back together with her (during reconciliation). In other words, I think opening up would cause more harm than good for R.


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## ConanHub

You have not experienced this before and you know better?

Did your friend ever do this?

Listen to experience or don't. You are by far too "nice" of a guy.

Inject some test and find your inner barbarian. She might actually find you attractive again.

So far your wisdom has your woman fvcking other men. What can it hurt to change yourself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

And you know her father was an evil so-and-so, exactly how? Who told you?

It might be true, it might not.

It might be a case of "like mother, like daughter."


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## tom67

ConfusedInCali said:


> Yes, as the OP I am very angry. And yes, I haven't done anything about it and playing catch-up.
> 
> That said, I will be moving forward with divorce paperwork. Truth is, I do want reconciliation because I'm still emotionally attached to her and our family, as a unit. However, I have been living in a divorced situation since I've been living separately, kids coming over half the week, etc.
> 
> Let's say I move forward with divorce and do want reconciliation - I could present to her the divorce news in different ways. What is the most effective way to present this to her? Tell her I'm filing? Or just do it and tell her I did it? If I'm looking for reconciliation and to get her out of the fog, what is the best approach? I know if there is any reconciliation desire from her, it needs to be under MY terms.
> 
> I do understand that if I do this, I need to be prepared that we could be done, period. And I'm ok with that. I just want to know what is the best approach to this in communicating divorce to her.


Filing and showing you cannot be messed with is the only chance to get her back.
Strength = Attractive no niceing back never works she has lost a ton of respect for you.
Get mmslp asap
http://marriedmansexlife.com/books/:)

And yes surprise here and serve her at work.


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## LongWalk

You have a good analysis of your situation. You are in pain but a realist. There is need to address the psychological issues of your wife's family:

– How does she feel about her mother today?
– Do her parents know about her infidelity?
– She doesn't want counseling, but a counselor would ask her if she is repeating her mother's "sin" as an act of solidarity?

Perhaps you can ask your wife if she would go and spend a week in the apartment instead of you, so that she would feel what it is like. This would not be a trick but give her an opportunity to get another perspective.

You are protecting your wife from the consequences of her infidelity. If you don't act like her father did towards her mother, then you cheat her out of the drama that formed her life if she expected the same sort of reaction that her mother got.

If you do act like her father, then you also destroy your relationship. You are d*mned if you do, d*amned if you don't.

I would be straight with her. Tell her that she needs professional help, not because she is mentally ill but because her family history has set her up create a crisis for herself and she needs to know what choices she faces now.

TAM has a let him/her go speech which really good. Maybe another poster has a link to it. You should read it. It will give the tools to deal with forcing her to be more introspective.

Perhaps you might say to her that you are not her father and she is not her mother. Your marriage may end but you are not going to let her control how it plays out. Tell her that the separation needs to end. After she has tried out the lonely apartment for two weeks, you can talk again and decide whether or not to divorce.

She needs to go to a good therapist. She owes it to herself.

Look her in the eye when you speak. Don't be wordy.

For reconciliation to work it takes two. She has to want to reconcile and has to believe you can forgive. If she doesn't gain insight, it will be very hard for her to make good decisions right now.

You need to show her consequences. Do the 180. Get ready for divorce. Don't lose your temper.


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## tom67

LongWalk said:


> You have a good analysis of your situation. You are in pain but a realist. There is need to address the psychological issues of your wife's family:
> 
> – How does she feel about her mother today?
> – Do her parents know about her infidelity?
> – She doesn't want counseling, but a counselor would ask her if she is repeating her mother's "sin" as an act of solidarity?
> 
> Perhaps you can ask your wife if she would go and spend a week in the apartment instead of you, so that she would feel what it is like. This would not be a trick but give her an opportunity to get another perspective.
> 
> You are protecting your wife from the consequences of her infidelity. If you don't act like her father did towards her mother, then you cheat her out of the drama that formed her life if she expected the same sort of reaction that her mother got.
> 
> If you do act like her father, then you also destroy your relationship. You are d*mned if you do, d*amned if you don't.
> 
> I would be straight with her. Tell her that she needs professional help, not because she is mentally ill but because her family history has set her up create a crisis for herself and she needs to know what choices she faces now.
> 
> TAM has a let him/her go speech which really good. Maybe another poster has a link to it. You should read it. It will give the tools to deal with forcing her to be more introspective.
> 
> Perhaps you might say to her that you are not her father and she is not her mother. Your marriage may end but you are not going to let her control how it plays out. Tell her that the separation needs to end. After she has tried out the lonely apartment for two weeks, you can talk again and decide whether or not to divorce.
> 
> She needs to go to a good therapist. She owes it to herself.
> 
> Look her in the eye when you speak. Don't be wordy.
> 
> For reconciliation to work it takes two. She has to want to reconcile and has to believe you can forgive. If she doesn't gain insight, it will be very hard for her to make good decisions right now.
> 
> You need to show her consequences. Do the 180. Get ready for divorce. Don't lose your temper.


:iagree::iagree:
Well said.


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## Chaparral

Exposure is being recommended but I have to disagree with that..........I think.

Exposure is just a tool, a tool to break up an affair. If you believe the affair is still going on, by all means expose to everyone and their brother. But at this point exposure would just be vindictive.

If she wants to reconcile fine, if she's just playing you along , file. Ask her when you move back in.


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## ConanHub

Chaparral said:


> Exposure is being recommended but I have to disagree with that..........I think.
> 
> Exposure is just a tool, a tool to break up an affair. If you believe the affair is still going on, by all means expose to everyone and their brother. But at this point exposure would just be vindictive.
> 
> If she wants to reconcile fine, if she's just playing you along , file. Ask her when you move back in.


It is also a repercussion.


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## dgtal

By the time you finish understanding and applying the 180 while separated she would be "trying" other(s) men at your own expenses in you own house. Go back home. Only expose to OM wife or gf if there is one
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stillasamountain

He might not have proof that the affair is ongoing but the situation seems pretty fishy. And if she is still in the fog... exposure would be one of the important tools for snapping her out of it, right?


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## Roselyn

Your wife is a 40 year old woman and had an affair with a 25 year old young man. A midlife crisis? No! She had an affair because she can and she knows that you won't do anything about it.

You say that she is 40 years old and looks like she's 28. Because of her looks, does that mean that she can get a pass from you? You seem to be conscious about your balding looks. Do you feel so fortunate to be with a cheating wife because you feel that you are lesser than her? You are not. She's abusing you. You're in great pain and anxiety.

Work on your self-esteem and don't tolerate this behavior of hers. She's not even trying to keep your marriage as her refusal to go to marriage counseling. You either tolerate her behavior throughout your life or let her go. You deserve a better life.


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## 6301

If I were you, I would stop worrying about stepping on her toes and playing the nice guy. The fact of the matter is she cheated on you and it showed a complete lack of respect to you but to make it even worse, you now know that she had unprotected sex with this guy and if he had some sort of STD, she would have it and you can bet your ass you would too.

Time for you to thinks what's best for you and her feelings come in second. Think about it, she did the same to you and did it in a way that is beyond low. Stop playing nice because she hasn't been playing nice for a long time now and IMO has no intentions of stopping. Your just hurting yourself. 

Give the the divorce papers and if anyone asks why then tell them the truth because if you don't, she'll come up with a story and it will stick and then when you give the real reason, all it will look like is sour grapes on your part.


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## Rookie4

When filing for divorce, have her served in as matter of fact way , possible. Don't publicly humiliate her, and don't have her served in front of the Kids. Public exposure only has value , if the affair is ongoing. If you believe that it is over, there is little point, to rubbing her nose in it. (save the recriminations for later) She won't like it , if you humiliate her, and it will harden her resolve to not reconcile. If you, matter of factly, show her that you are over her , and looking toward a future without her, that, more than anything , will get her attention. If, of course, she hasn't already decided that it's over. Think of your kids and yourself, first, last and always. Only think of her as your kids Mom, not as your wife. You must do all you can for the family. It must survive, with or without her, her choice.


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## jnj express

get your fanny back in your home---RIGHT NOW----In almost every state----you could be nailed for ABANDONMENT, if you leave the marital home

Go to google, and look up California Family Codes, and read and familiarize yourself with EVERYTHING----alimony in calif---is on a set scale---judge is bound to follow that scale----that scale will be in the family codes

Your so called wife---is not a good mother----A GOOD MOTHER WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED ANOTHER MAN INSIDE OF HER---thus putting the mge at risk, and the future peace of mind, and carefree life of her kids at risk

Do what you have to do----but do not take anymore of your wife's crap about her needing to find out if sex still was a turn on-------she could have done that WITH YOU----she wanted sex with that younger guy----she wanted to be with the other man

take this where you want---but do not sit and worry about your wife's future----SHE MADE HER BED-----NOW SHE GETS TO SLEEP IN IT


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## FormerSelf

Heavy, heavy stuff.

OP, I realize that for many reasons you desire to reconcile, just don't let that desire sabotage your self-respect...which is VITAL to reconciliation anyway.

I understand your fears of overdoing it on 180 will incite her never wanting to reconcile...but you MUST keep it in perspective of *choices* and *consequences*.

When we are a child, we are rewarded when we do good things. When we put our stubby little fingers to the flame, we get burned. We realize: "When I do this, I get a cookie. What I do that, I get hurt AND my parents yell at me." Kids, starting from an ultimate core of selfishness eventually grow socially conscious, learning what is appropriate behavior and what is not.

So when we have a "bored" wife...who has all the freedom in the world to start flirting with a 25 year old...and engages in this behavior, leading her to get involved in a sexual affair, she is tapping into her child-like selfishness...becoming hungry and lustful for that forbidden fruit and growing dissatisfied with everything else in life, willing to trade in her birthright for a bowl of stew. She loses her objectivity...in spite of how "certain" she sounds concerning what she wants. Trust me, your wife has no idea what she wants!!! My wife ployed me with so much babble and bs, just floating on the emotional current that I felt like I was taking crazy pills when she interacted with me...as I was foolish enough to think that she knew what she was talking about while she was in that affair fog. But I digress...

When you acquiesce to her every wish and apologize for your shortcoming in every way (motivated by reconciliation), you are basically agreeing with her that "Yes, It's MY fault you cheated!! You deserve better than me! Take the kids! Take the money! In fact, I'll make life easy for you so you can keep having an affair, the kids will get a second daddy, and gosh! no reason why we can't remain best friends!" Okay, I'm being dramatic, but cheaters love to be assuaged from all guilt. And in their selfishness, they think: "See? I AM right to dump this old codfish. Look how pathetic he grovels anyway."

So back to choices and consequences.... When we make everything easy and painless for them, that means your wife is not getting any feedback that says "OW!!! I just did something that really hurt!" Already, a cheater's pain tolerance has been numbed by the denial and affair euphoria (which is why they are crash-depressed when an affair is rocky or ends. Affair process is nearly identical to an addiction)...which is why CONSEQUENCES for cheating must be swift and sure. It's NOT being abusive...or spiteful. 

You actually are empowering her!!! You are saying: 

"I recognize you as a freewilled independent adult, free to make your choices as she sees fit. I will not force you away from the life you think is better and greener out there. I will not stand in your way. However, your choice will result in me responding in [such and such manner]. If you however choose to try to reconcile this, then nothing short of [such and such] is acceptable."

The psychology you asked about concerning the 180: Yes, you are detaching, but you are also STOPPING behaviors that may be repulsing her...behaviors that may be deemed clingy, needy, hovering...basically behaviors that convey a lower station and diminish her respect and security and trust. We usually act this way when we first sense our spouse pulling away...or if there is already an imbalance of respect in the marriage. When we grant them space and work on areas to build our self-respect...their respect and attraction may return if it's not too late and they observe the changes are genuine and not just false cosmetic changes to trick her back into the old paradigm.

Creating space also gets you of her emotional rollercoaster...the insane push/pull behavior of someone who is on the fence. You will know if she is *off* the fence if she goes evil and medieval on you with custody and finances...or if she just balances out and seems pretty sure she is better off being not married to you. I doubt she is seeing the 25 yr old...there is nothing there in that formula that was going to last. 

Hope this helps.


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## Hardtohandle

ConfusedInCali said:


> Here's my and my best friend's argument against humiliation: if I do want reconciliation, how does humiliation help? I would think that she wouldn't want to reconcile if it's publicly exposed as she would be concerned about being judged by our friends when we're together.
> 
> However, yes if it's clear she does NOT want reconciliation and doesn't even fight for us to even TRY reconciliation, then yes I see no reason to hold back and would expose her to all those around us.
> 
> I would think by exposing her to our friends and all, that would more likely drive her away from even wanting to try reconciliation, no?
> 
> I put myself in her shoes....if i had cheated and was on the fence about reconciliation and she told all of our friends, I think I would be too humiliated around my friends to want to get back with her. The guilt, and the fear of how my friends would constantly view me when I'm back together with her (during reconciliation). In other words, I think opening up would cause more harm than good for R.


Look you're trying to be rational with a woman who fvcked another man to see if that is what she was missing in her life..

All this stuff is primal cave man sh!t.. You just don't see and neither did she.. Something in her head made you less of a man so she seeked out someone else who* AT THAT TIME* was more manly.. 

Again read my story and see how being nice fails.. Look I was very resistive.. I never exposed and I should have.. I am currently divorced.. For me for many reasons it was a good thing.. But I will tell you even today I had a breakdown crying and I have the kids and my Ex wife pays me child support.. So take it from a guy who bucked the system and won at this game called divorce.. BTW no my ex wife does not make tons of money.. She makes about 2k a month and pays me 210 a month.. I make 120k a year..

Trust me, the minute she see's you grow a pair of balls and start treating her distant, she will start getting annoyed..

Just fake it for a bit.. 
*"Honey do you mind if I pick up the kids at 1PM today.. I went out with some friends last night and had too much to drink."*

*"Mind switching this day for another have dinner date with a friend"*

Have a friend post on FB seen you at soandso, very nice friend you have there.

Gauge her reaction. 

You want to reconcile ? 

Okay has she asked you yet to reconcile ? NO... 

Trust me, she needs to want to come back.. Even if it doesn't work out.. She needs to want to come back.. If you trick or beg her to come back and it fails it will hurt you more.. She will just tell you that she tried, she really tried.. 

If it fails and she says she is leaving at least you can say, hey YOU wanted to come back.. YOU wanted to work this out.. 

She knows she has you in her back pocket.. You need to get the fvck out of her back pocket.. 

Again just test the fvcking waters for christ sake.. Do those 2 things I mentioned within a few days from each other and see how she reacts.. 

If she gets cold and distant or lashes out in some other way, then it shows you she cares at least.. 

What is the worst she can do ? fvck someone else ? Continue the affair ? Not reconcile ? 

Again I know this sh!t is crazy.. Up is down, Left is Right, Right is sideways.. 

Right now its all emotions.. You need to prey on her emotions.. Again, trust me at 315 LBS my Ex wife wasn't worried about me picking up a hot chick or vice versa.. 

You on the other hand seem to have it all together.. Your ex will be worried a bit.. Get someone else you can trust involved.. Have her brother comment to her eventually about this other girl.. 

One of those look, Sis, If you love Cali and have any thoughts about getting back then you might want to act on them because no offense but I've seen Cali with a younger attractive you several times already.. I'm just saying.. 

Look this is WAR and there is no fair in this type of WAR.. Sometimes someone needs to be knocked in the head to get it..

Worse comes to worse, nothing changes.. You're still back where you are..

In the midst of all of this mention about going to a lawyer to file or just serve her with papers with intent to divorce.. 

You need a reality to set in that is not hers.. Everything right now is under her control. You need to remove this control from her, let her see there are choices and consequences.. 

You just need to get out of your comfort zone on this one.. Please..


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## LongWalk

> Just fake it for a bit..
> "Honey do you mind if I pick up the kids at 1PM today.. I went out with some friends last night and had too much to drink."
> 
> "Mind switching this day for another have dinner date with a friend"


I disagree. Don't play games with her.

Generally you are getting good advice. Detach from her. Don't interact and offer emotional support. Being reactive to her affirms that you are invested.

One of the best threads on TAM "No Sex After Her Affair" by Road Scholar is the story of a betrayed husband who reconciled with his wayward wife twice. The first time she was still putting out for OM while denying RS any pvssy at all. This lasted 5 months. When he discovered that she was still in contact with OM and decided to divorce her, she started to come round.

Every story will be different. In some cases a WW might not attempt R because they believe any overture will be rejected. But one thing is certain, as long as you are have puppy dog sad eyes, you lose.


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## NoChoice

ConfusedInCali said:


> Here's my and my best friend's argument against humiliation: if I do want reconciliation, how does humiliation help? I would think that she wouldn't want to reconcile if it's publicly exposed as she would be concerned about being judged by our friends when we're together.
> 
> However, yes if it's clear she does NOT want reconciliation and doesn't even fight for us to even TRY reconciliation, then yes I see no reason to hold back and would expose her to all those around us.
> 
> I would think by exposing her to our friends and all, that would more likely drive her away from even wanting to try reconciliation, no?
> 
> I put myself in her shoes....if i had cheated and was on the fence about reconciliation and she told all of our friends, I think I would be too humiliated around my friends to want to get back with her. The guilt, and the fear of how my friends would constantly view me when I'm back together with her (during reconciliation). In other words, I think opening up would cause more harm than good for R.


OP, you are missing the point here altogether. You don't expose to be vindictive or to get even, you expose to blow the A apart AND to give your WS the opportunity deal with the consequences of her actions. If she has any true feelings for you and a true desire to R she will COMPLETELY own what she has done, be deeply remorseful and explain to everyone involved how she messed up and how lucky she is that you are giving her a second chance.

She won't want to R because you exposed, she'll want to in spite of it. That's how you'll know it's sincere. She will be humiliated.....surely yes but not because of you, because of her actions. She wants to dance and then skate on paying the band. Not true remorse my friend. If she balks or hesitates in taking full ownership for what she has done then it is not true repentance and your R will be disingenuous. If she cares more about saving face than about saving the marriage, it's not sincere. If exposure makes her bolt, she is gone anyway.


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## badmemory

It seems there are many different views on when and how much exposure is appropriate.

Here's my rule of thumb - but there can always be exceptions:

- Affair still ongoing, R or D - expose to the max.

- Affair ended, D - exposure to family, close friends and AP spouse. 

- Affair ended, R - limited exposure to immediate family and AP spouse.

For what it's worth.


----------



## Rookie4

badmemory said:


> It seems there are many different views on when and how much exposure is appropriate.
> 
> Here's my rule of thumb - but there can always be exceptions:
> 
> - Affair still ongoing, R or D - expose to the max.
> 
> - Affair ended, D - exposure to family, close friends and AP spouse.
> 
> - Affair ended, R - limited exposure to immediate family and AP spouse.
> 
> For what it's worth.


I agree, except for the one about affair ended R. If you are going to R, then the only other people who need to be notified are the AP (letter of NC) and his/her spouse. Nobody else, except counselors.


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## badmemory

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, except for the one about affair ended R. If you are going to R, then the only other people who need to be notified are the AP (letter of NC) and his/her spouse. Nobody else, except counselors.


Don't agree, but that's Okay.


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## ConfusedInCali

Update, as the OP:


Quick summary of my situation: I moved out as she said she needed space, wife cheated, I discovered, evidence leads me to believe and confirm she had cut it off before confrontation, but wife was still not willing to go to counseling or work on our marriage.

That said...

Since last week, I started the 180. Started speaking to her much less unless I needed to for the kids, showed no interest in her life, moved on with my own life by keeping myself busy with old friends, new hobbies, etc.

Last night, I went over to our house and told her I'm filing for a divorce. She started an outrage about the fact that it's been only 3 months since I moved out, thinks I have met somebody, yelled at me for being cold to her the last 2 weeks, not wanting to talk to her, or even sit next to her, etc. (seems that 180 worked?) 

Anyhow, I told her she has a choice, we either are FULLY committed to working on saving our family which means: being 100% committed to counseling, being 100% committed to talking through our issues, and me moving back into the house. 
OR
We tell all our parents next week at Thanksgiving that we're going through a divorce, and let's just do the divorce. That also means us selling the house and she needs to move out.

Her reaction: she flipped out again saying it's only been 3 months and that working on us isn't a priority as she has school that just started on Monday of this week, and said she is focused on that and our kids. I told her, well it's your choice what you want to do.

This morning at 4am, I get a text from her saying "ok, i will go to counseling and try. but i don't want to start until Dec since i just started school yesterday. is that ok?" 

A few questions that I'd like input on:

1a. How genuine is this that she is willing to try for reconciliation? I mean, if last night she was saying she's not ready to work on us....does that mean she's already gone and she's just doing this to avoid trouble with moving out, etc.? I guess actions speak louder than words going forward so perhaps I should just take it with a grain of salt, until we actually see true effort in reconciliation during the process?

1b. If her heart isn't there (based on what she said last night about not ready to work on us), should we even try R? I'm thinking, she could just be going through the motions? Or is it possible as a couple going through the motions, the love re-ignites?

2. Now that she has said she will try to work on us.....do I continue to do the 180? Seems like I shouldn't right? I mean, if the path is to move towards reconciliation, BOTH parties need to try and communicate, work with each other, show interest, listen, etc. (which is contradictory to the 180?) Not sure how to apply this now??


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## harrybrown

Her response was not one of the choices.

Have you told her family about her A?

You need to expose, if you sweep this under the rug, she has no consequences.

She will do it again and again.


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## Nucking Futs

ConfusedInCali said:


> Update, as the OP:
> 
> 
> Quick summary of my situation: I moved out as she said she needed space, wife cheated, I discovered, evidence leads me to believe and confirm she had cut it off before confrontation, but wife was still not willing to go to counseling or work on our marriage.
> 
> That said...
> 
> Since last week, I started the 180. Started speaking to her much less unless I needed to for the kids, showed no interest in her life, moved on with my own life by keeping myself busy with old friends, new hobbies, etc.
> 
> Last night, I went over to our house and told her I'm filing for a divorce. She started an outrage about the fact that it's been only 3 months since I moved out, thinks I have met somebody, yelled at me for being cold to her the last 2 weeks, not wanting to talk to her, or even sit next to her, etc. (seems that 180 worked?)
> 
> Anyhow, I told her she has a choice, we either are FULLY committed to working on saving our family which means: being 100% committed to counseling, being 100% committed to talking through our issues, and me moving back into the house.
> OR
> We tell all our parents next week at Thanksgiving that we're going through a divorce, and let's just do the divorce. That also means us selling the house and she needs to move out.
> 
> Her reaction: she flipped out again saying it's only been 3 months and that working on us isn't a priority as she has school that just started on Monday of this week, and said she is focused on that and our kids. I told her, well it's your choice what you want to do.
> 
> This morning at 4am, I get a text from her saying "ok, i will go to counseling and try. but i don't want to start until Dec since i just started school yesterday. is that ok?"
> 
> A few questions that I'd like input on:
> 
> 1a. How genuine is this that she is willing to try for reconciliation? I mean, if last night she was saying she's not ready to work on us....does that mean she's already gone and she's just doing this to avoid trouble with moving out, etc.? I guess actions speak louder than words going forward so perhaps I should just take it with a grain of salt, until we actually see true effort in reconciliation during the process?
> 
> 1b. If her heart isn't there (based on what she said last night about not ready to work on us), should we even try R? I'm thinking, she could just be going through the motions? Or is it possible as a couple going through the motions, the love re-ignites?
> 
> 2. Now that she has said she will try to work on us.....do I continue to do the 180? Seems like I shouldn't right? I mean, if the path is to move towards reconciliation, BOTH parties need to try and communicate, work with each other, show interest, listen, etc. (which is contradictory to the 180?) Not sure how to apply this now??


1a It's not genuine at all, she's stalling you. If she really wanted to stay married to you nothing would stand in her way to work on it with you. To her your relationship is lower priority than school and whatever else she has to do.

1b No, she's not remorseful or, for lack of a better term, interested enough in R for you to pursue it. Continue the divorce process and 180. Don't string her along though, let her know that she's just proven that your relationship is not very important to her so the divorce is continuing and don't waste any time or money on marriage counseling unless it's counseling to learn how to be better co-parents.

"ok, i will go to counseling and try. but i don't want to start until Dec since i just started school yesterday. is that ok?" seems to be a little bit begrudging.


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## Tobyboy

Marriage counseling is useless if she still cheating! 
Odds are that her toyboy dumped her after she put out. Thinking if she got rid of you, toyboy might reconsider taking her back. 

Now that you've given her an ultimatum....she agrees to counseling?

She's not going to put in the work. Save your money on a bull lawyer and expose your cheating wife!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

I agree with the others. She isn't remorseful enough. You need to stay the course. She may just be sh*t testing you. Spat with her AP. Who knows? 

OP find your self respect. The minute she said she wasn't ready I would have told her to shove it up her a$$ when I got that text.

Continue to act like she has done you a huge giant favor by setting you free.


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## badmemory

Confused,

I would advice anyone to only implement the 180 when the next step is D, or the D process is already started.

From what you describe, I don't see any reason to think she is remorseful or willing to do the heavy lifting. Her reticent agreement to MC, while better than a refusal, seems just a last minute attempt to placate you.

You are the one that looks in her eyes and hears everything she says. You watch her actions. You see her reactions. Can you honestly say that she is willing to do the things needed to save her marriage? Is there any desperation? Any sincere investment at all?

Why not try at least one visit to MC and see if you can find it. See if she is capable of "getting" it. My guess, regretfully, is no.


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## ConanHub

She is still a cake eating wh0re.

She transgressed and is still trying to dictate your life.

You need to own this just as she needs to be MADE to take ownership of her own wh0rish ass.

Do not accept anything about R on her terms. She has to make this right with you. She has no say.

If, and it is a big if, you two successfully R, then she can express what she wants in your marriage and that will be good and healthy.

Until she fully owns the fact that she used her child to get her own sons' coach to form a relationship with her and then became a cheating wh0re for said coach, she will never be ready to R.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

I'm approaching this as it goes both ways, right? i.e., for me and for her to figure out if this is what we want. 

Is there any harm in going to counseling if we're going through it, and if I myself don't feel there is any effort on her part, or if there is no improvement over several sessions? Then at that point, at least I know we can call it quits. (Fortunately, my employer pays for almost all of therapy sessions, so there is minimal $$ from my own pocket.) Meanwhile, I continue focusing on myself as well with new hobbies, etc.

To be honest, since invoking the 180, I've started to detach myself from her a bit more (relative to 2 weeks ago or prior). Nonetheless, I still love her very much, but I'm slowly starting to see more and more how she is not the person I viewed her to be.


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## ConanHub

ConfusedInCali said:


> I'm approaching this as it goes both ways, right? i.e., for me and for her to figure out if this is what we want.
> 
> Is there any harm in going to counseling if we're going through it, and if I myself don't feel there is any effort on her part, or if there is no improvement over several sessions? Then at that point, at least I know we can call it quits. (Fortunately, my employer pays for almost all of therapy sessions, so there is minimal $$ from my own pocket.) Meanwhile, I continue focusing on myself as well with new hobbies, etc.
> 
> To be honest, since invoking the 180, I've started to detach myself from her a bit more (relative to 2 weeks ago or prior). Nonetheless, I still love her very much, but I'm slowly starting to see more and more how she is not the person I viewed her to be.


Nothing wrong but she should not be allowed to dictate any part of the R to you. She should be on her knees, so to speak, begging for forgiveness and very willing to do all the heavy lifting to make it up to you for her transgression.

She still sounds like a self important skank.


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## ConfusedInCali

Thanks for the input folks. I'll let her actions speak for itself, over the next days/weeks.

And yes, fully agree that she is still trying to dictate the terms of any effort for R. I understand this can't happen.


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## ConanHub

BTW. Best wishes man, really sorry you are going through this.

I just hope you come out of this healthy.


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## Thound

Kind of off the subject, and Im a little vindictive bastad, but I would let all the parents who have kids going to that academy know what coach Good Luvin did. Thats just me though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SevenYears

The problem with saying they will start counselling in December is that when it get to December there's a good chance she will say that she wants to put it off until January because of Christmas coming up. Then in January she may come up with another reason to put it back again. Like others have mentioned she is stalling. May need time to see how things go with OM. If she was interested in fixing the relationship she would be booking it now.

It reminds me of when I tried to quit smoking years ago. I would always say I'll start next week. By the time it got there I would have an excuse to put it back another week. That's the great thing about saying you'll do something in the future. You've said your going to do it but if its always going to be something you're going to do, you never actually have to do it.


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## Nucking Futs

ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks for the input folks. I'll let her actions speak for itself, over the next days/weeks.
> 
> And yes, fully agree that she is still trying to dictate the terms of any effort for R. I understand this can't happen.


I wish you luck. You're going to need it considering she straight up told you that working on your relationship was not a priority.


----------



## ConanHub

Thound said:


> Kind of off the subject, and Im a little vindictive bastad, but I would let all the parents who have kids going to that academy know what coach Good Luvin did. Thats just me though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely! That little POS used his trusted position to fvck the married mother of a kid put in his trust.


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## Forest

ConanHub said:


> Nothing wrong but she should not be allowed to dictate any part of the R to you. She should be on her knees, so to speak, begging for forgiveness and very willing to do all the heavy lifting to make it up to you for her transgression.
> 
> She still sounds like a self important skank.


Yep, she sounds like she doesn't think she's done anything wrong. No remorse. She deserves to treat you however she wants, because she's not happy, this, that, or the other thing BS.

She needs more real consequences. I don't normally have a position on exposure, but it seems she has a "you wouldn't dare" attitude, and is very certain of herself.

Until she's not certain about anything other than you are calling the shots, will drop her like a hot rock, and let the chips and reputations fall where they may -- she's not going to change.


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## tom67

I would inform the baseball academy of what he has done.
Put him on cheaterville and email his bosses.
You can't nice her out of this.
Expose to both families before thanksgiving.

Blow his world up he deserves it!


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## Q tip

Wanting space means she wants to taste the OM with you not around.


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## BWBill

Your marriage has a chance if:

She stops being angry with you and starts being remorseful for her own actions

*and *

She starts caring about what you want

*and*

She makes your marriage more important than her school.


Until then you are just two people negotiating living and support arrangements. 

You should stick with the 180 and you should start informing others of the affair. She has not faced any consequences for the affair (note that you being out of the house doesn't bother her at all) and her next step is going to giving people her own version of why you are separated and getting divorced.


----------



## Forest

ConfusedInCali said:


> Here's my and my best friend's argument against humiliation: if I do want reconciliation, how does humiliation help? I would think that she wouldn't want to reconcile if it's publicly exposed as she would be concerned about being judged by our friends when we're together.
> 
> However, yes if it's clear she does NOT want reconciliation and doesn't even fight for us to even TRY reconciliation, then yes I see no reason to hold back and would expose her to all those around us.
> 
> I would think by exposing her to our friends and all, that would more likely drive her away from even wanting to try reconciliation, no?
> 
> I put myself in her shoes....if i had cheated and was on the fence about reconciliation and she told all of our friends, I think I would be too humiliated around my friends to want to get back with her. The guilt, and the fear of how my friends would constantly view me when I'm back together with her (during reconciliation). In other words, I think opening up would cause more harm than good for R.


When I first read this post of yours, I felt something, but it took awhile to all come together. You are thinking pretty clearly, and trying to make the best possible outcome of a bad situation. 

Know what else you are doing? You are being thoughtful and considerate. You are considering lots of things, and people, and trying to formulate a plan that helps everyone concerned, right?

The problem here is that you are the only one with such consideration. When your wife and her immoral coach started up their shenanigans, where were their thoughts and concerns? On their groins, maybe, but nowhere else. They didn't give a tinker's damn about your, their families, what's right or wrong, or anything! 

They did what suited their selfish short term needs and couldn't care less about anyone else. Forget about what will make life easy on them. Deal with reality, and what is best for you for once.


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## Nix

All I can do is share my own experiences. You can click on my username and read my previous posts beginning back in early 2012 for more details about what happened to me.

I was in a ten year relationship that would have been a legal marriage if we were not a same sex couple living in a state which at that time did not recognize gay marriage - although it was a sign, in retrospect, that neither one of us pushed for a civil union even though that was legal for a while. 

We were not THAT young when we got together. I was 34 and the veteran of quite a few relationships. My ex was 30 and had only been involved in one (heterosexual) relationship before me. I was her first same sex relationship. After everything exploded, it came out that the heterosexual relationship was with a man who had raped her and who she felt she had to stay with because the Bible promised men that they got to "keep" their virgin conquests. (That tells you a lot about my ex)

The first couple of years were happy, but the usual life choices that turn out to be mistakes, and normal daily wear and tear were not kind to our relationship. It came out that we did not communicate the way a couple must in order to have a healthy relationship. My ex lost her job in 2009, and she didn't go back to work until she left me in 2013. During the intervening years I supported the two of us and she sat around dwelling on how much her life sucked and blaming me for choices I thought we had made jointly. Turned out not so much, if I wasn't around to muck up her plans, her life would have gone much differently.

Her boredom and dissatisfaction with her life grew. She started to spend more and more time away from me. I protested but it didn't change her behavior. In 2011 she created a blog that seemed to be primarily an outlet for her rage, bitterness and contempt toward me and also my family. In the blog she said she wanted to break up with me but didn't know how to tell me. I found it in early 2012, told her she could pack and leave right then. She burst into tears, apologized, said she didn't mean it and begged my forgiveness which I gave her.

We tried to continue on "as normal." That lasted about a year and a half. By mid-2013 (the year she turned 40) she had decided to give men another try and she moved across the country. 

Did my ex have a mid life crisis - I believe she did, but her actions were not solely caused by this. My ex was unhappy with me and didn't have the guts/desire to work with me to save the relationship. For the record I was unhappy too for my own reasons, but I was willing to save the relationship and she was not.

It takes two to make a relationship but just one to leave it. Your wife sounds a lot like my ex. Selfish, not willing to do her fair share of the work in repairing the marriage. And you sound a lot like I was with my ex, willing to make excuses to explain away her behavior instead of seeing it as what it really is at its purest level, which is she just doesn't care about the relationship/you in the same way you do, and it is not a priority for her.

Sorry to be so blunt but your story really struck a chord with me.

Take care of yourself and good luck.


----------



## Chaparral

ConfusedInCali said:


> I'm approaching this as it goes both ways, right? i.e., for me and for her to figure out if this is what we want.
> 
> Is there any harm in going to counseling if we're going through it, and if I myself don't feel there is any effort on her part, or if there is no improvement over several sessions? Then at that point, at least I know we can call it quits. (Fortunately, my employer pays for almost all of therapy sessions, so there is minimal $$ from my own pocket.) Meanwhile, I continue focusing on myself as well with new hobbies, etc.
> 
> To be honest, since invoking the 180, I've started to detach myself from her a bit more (relative to 2 weeks ago or prior). Nonetheless, I still love her very much, but I'm slowly starting to see more and more how she is not the person I viewed her to be.


Actually, I think her contacting you at 4am is significant. Sounds like she was losing sleep over all this. Does that guarantee anything? NO

It also seems odd to put it off until December though I would just about bet if you told her to just forget it she would tell you to move back in now.

December is only two weeks or less away.

It wouldn't hurt to sit down and make clear what is going on.

What are the two of you planning on doing about Thanksgiving? Ask her if she is just trying to put you off until after the holidays.

Like I said about the 4am contact, she is definitely looking at this as a crisis.

She is a cheater, she needs to do the heavy lifting. Continue the 180, it says you can talk about things if SHE brings it up. I am going to post this Wayward Spouse Instructions guide. Print it off and go over it WITH her to watch her reactions. This might just tell you if she is on board.

*THE WAYWARD SPOUSE INSTRUCTIONS
Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 



*


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## Chaparral

I edited that last post to say it wouldn't hurt to talk to her about it. I tried to fix it on my PC but its having a hard time with this website recently.


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## Tobyboy

Thound said:


> Kind of off the subject, and Im a little vindictive bastad, but I would let all the parents who have kids going to that academy know what coach Good Luvin did. Thats just me though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree!!! But tell the husbands first!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

Chaparral said:


> Actually, I think her contacting you at 4am is significant. Sounds like she was losing sleep over all this. Does that guarantee anything? NO
> 
> It also seems odd to put it off until December though I would just about bet if you told her to just forget it she would tell you to move back in now.
> 
> December is only two weeks or less away.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt to sit down and make clear what is going on.
> 
> What are the two of you planning on doing about Thanksgiving? Ask her if she is just trying to put you off until after the holidays.
> 
> *Like I said about the 4am contact, she is definitely looking at this as a crisis.*
> 
> She is a cheater, she needs to do the heavy lifting. Continue the 180, it says you can talk about things if SHE brings it up. I am going to post this Wayward Spouse Instructions guide. Print it off and go over it WITH her to watch her reactions. This might just tell you if she is on board.
> 
> *Edited because way to long to quote. That's a hint people!*


I don't want to trigger anyone but I can't accept that she was definitely losing sleep over the divorce. You don't know what she was doing at 2am or who she was doing it with. For all any of us know she might have just rolled in drunk, prayed to the porcelain god then drunk texted that. Or some other scenario, I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this way.

No remorse shown, even in the 4am text.


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## Chaparral

Quite frankly, I don't believe anything about her reason to separate or her"one time"story.


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## sidney2718

ConanHub said:


> Nothing wrong but she should not be allowed to dictate any part of the R to you. She should be on her knees, so to speak, begging for forgiveness and very willing to do all the heavy lifting to make it up to you for her transgression.
> 
> She still sounds like a self important skank.


I don't agree with this. Reconciliation takes TWO people who are fully committed. If you, the OP, can't continue your marriage without having your wife on her knees begging, then you should probably divorce.

Why? Because she'll never forget that you made her do that. You two can be in your eighties and she'll remember it.

What you do need from her is commitment. There are many ways of showing commitment. There is no one golden way. You have to look for commitment from her.

That said, I'd not let her put things off. She's evidently thinking that you two are in a trial separation and you can't call it off. Of course you can call it off.

One last thing that you are clearly already working on. You need her buy-in for a reconciliation too. That means working on some of her issues with you.

If your goal is reconciliation, you want to come out of this as two equal human beings with all the rights and responsibilities that go with that. It won't be your old marriage back. That's dead. But it can be a new and better one -- seriously.


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## sidney2718

Thound said:


> Kind of off the subject, and Im a little vindictive bastad, but I would let all the parents who have kids going to that academy know what coach Good Luvin did. Thats just me though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only if you divorce. Otherwise you are setting things up for your wife to be shunned by everyone and for you to be assumed to be a fool for "letting" your wife get away with it. That's not a good basis for a reconciliation.


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## tom67

sidney2718 said:


> Only if you divorce. Otherwise you are setting things up for your wife to be shunned by everyone and for you to be assumed to be a fool for "letting" your wife get away with it. That's not a good basis for a reconciliation.


Being the nice guy hasn't helped him at this point she needs consequences.
He has to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it in his case.


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## Suspecting2014

CC

First of all, I am sorry you are here.

I wonder what came first, the need for a separation or the affair.

There is a possibility that the affair was death when you discovered it or on pauseâ¦

Maybe the Affair began before the separation and it was the reason your Wife wanted to split.

The way your wife is acting makes me think that there is a third person and that your wife took you for granted, that your are Plan B.

IMO you should talk to OM and confirm everything as they could be in touch by burning phone or other means.



Sorry for my English, is not my first language.


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## Suspecting2014

As long as they are on contact the R wont be possible, at least not a realone


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## Suspecting2014

intheory said:


> ConfusedInCali said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow, about 1 month ago I* found that she had some lab tests done.* I later discovered it was *for STD tests*.
> 
> . . . . . she later "*needed to have sex to find out if that was what was missing in her life*". . . . . . she needed to find out if she was missing lust/sexual excitement.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How did you find the STD test results? An "Explanation of Benefits" statement left lying around, or in you guys' email? I mean, she just left it lying around; or did you intercept it? That was kind of sloppy of her. Like she wanted you to find out. It just sounded weird to me; maybe it means nothing.
> 
> The statement about needing to have sex to find out if (sex) was missing in her life, is absurd. Does your wife have mental difficulties; or is she insulting your intelligence on purpose? You know you need to have sex if you feel horny; we all know that - right?
> 
> Is she stalling on the divorce so she will get more $ if you stay married another year, or something like that? Others have given you advice on getting familiar with California's divorce law. She might be stringing you along. Watch your back.
Click to expand...


Totally agree

As per I pointedout before I wonder if needed to have sex or needed to have sex with him???

I really think you must talk to OM and find some aswers, so you can make an informed decision


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## Hardtohandle

If your marriage isn't right, nothing else will be.

I agree she is stalling. I could be a bit gun shy about this because my Ex wife did the same to me and dragged me around for 4 months of therapy until she left.. 

To me I would have done ANYTHING to fix my marriage.. I mean ANYTHING.. I would have sold my home, quit my job and moved to a foreign country if I knew it would have fixed my marriage.. Everything else would have fallen into place if we were both happy.. The kids would have fallen into place.. 

School really that important compared to a marriage ?


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## bfree

You gave her conditions that would stop you filing for divorce. Immediate counseling, you move back in and she starts making the marriage her top priority. She offers you counseling sometime in the future and you somehow think that's a positive? Why would you back down on your conditions? Why would you ease up on the pressure if it was working? Are you a man of your word? Can your wife count on you being a man of your word? Then why would you go back on your word?


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## Chaparral

sidney2718 said:


> Only if you divorce. Otherwise you are setting things up for your wife to be shunned by everyone and for you to be assumed to be a fool for "letting" your wife get away with it. That's not a good basis for a reconciliation.


As an ex youth sports coach of at least twenty different teams, saying nothing is irresponsible. The organization he coaches for should be informed. He should also be put on cheaterville, annonymously if you wish, so that any other organization or parent that googles his name can see he is morally bankrupt.

Most organizations search and check for any criminal records.


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## Chaparral

Btw, putting him on cheaterville without saying who he cheated with will cause him to contact your wife, maybe others too to try and get him taken off of the site. How she approaches you with this information will be priceless. It will tell you how she really feels about him.

It will tell her you have [email protected] It will tell them both you can't be fu¢ked with and the mister nice guy days are over.
Have you downloaded and read MMSLP yet?


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## tom67

Chaparral said:


> Btw, putting him on cheaterville without saying who he cheated with will cause him to contact your wife, maybe others too to try and get him taken off of the site. How she approaches you with this information will be priceless. It will tell you how she really feels about him.
> 
> It will tell her you have [email protected] It will tell them both you can't be fu¢ked with and the mister nice guy days are over.
> Have you downloaded and read MMSLP yet?


Sadly this will not happen she still has his bAlls.


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## naiveonedave

Chaparral said:


> As an ex youth sports coach of at least twenty different teams, saying nothing is irresponsible. The organization he coaches for should be informed. He should also be put on cheaterville, annonymously if you wish, so that any other organization or parent that googles his name can see he is morally bankrupt.
> 
> Most organizations search and check for any criminal records.


Most youth organizations would not want the bad publicity that allowed a predator of a players mother to coach anymore. I have seen it for what I consider lesser offenses.

In USA Hockey, they actually give you training on how not to 'hook up' with players moms......


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## Suspecting2014

Reach him and ask him for the full truth, threaten him with exposing.

Go where he is with out warning and talk to him.

Be very discreet, dont tell your wife and be very observant on her reactions, this way you could know if they are still in contact.

Of course, based on his answers you can decide the level of exposing, it all will depend on what you will be willing to do, R or D.


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## carmen ohio

ConfusedInCali said:


> I'm approaching this as it goes both ways, right? i.e., for me and for her to figure out if this is what we want.
> 
> *Is there any harm in going to counseling if we're going through it, and if I myself don't feel there is any effort on her part, or if there is no improvement over several sessions? Then at that point, at least I know we can call it quits.* (Fortunately, my employer pays for almost all of therapy sessions, so there is minimal $$ from my own pocket.) *Meanwhile, I continue focusing on myself as well with new hobbies, etc.*
> 
> To be honest, since invoking the 180, I've started to detach myself from her a bit more (relative to 2 weeks ago or prior). Nonetheless, I still love her very much, but I'm slowly starting to see more and more how she is not the person I viewed her to be.


Dear ConfusedInCali,

Many of the responses to your post above have either explicitly or implicitly indicated that there would be no harm in starting marriage counseling now. I disagree.

There are at least three reasons for not starting marriage counseling before both parties are genuinely committed to reconciliation.

The first is that it is a waste of time and effort. In order for reconciliation to succeed, both parties have to be fully committed. But it's even worse than a waste of time. If your WW is not rely committed but you are, then you are not only wasting your time, you are delaying making the other progress you need to make -- such as detaching and rebuilding your self-esteem and self-confidence -- in order to heal yourself. You sort of address this issue by saying that you intend to _"continue focusing on [your]self"_ but, if you really do this, then you yourself are not committing 100% to reconciliation and that diminishes the likelihood of success.

The second reason is that there is a risk of a false reconciliation. We see this often on TAM/CWI. Often, the BS, usually a husband, is so desperate to reconcile that he overlooks the WS's failure to do what she needs to do to help him heal and to confront her own issues. At some point in the future, the BH finally wakes up to the fact that his reconciliation is a sham, often when the WW cheats again or because, even after years or trying, he still has not healed from her adultery. Based on the experience here, it is rare if not unheard of that the BS succeeds in fixing his or her marriage when the WS is not genuinely remorseful.

The third and in IMO the most important reason is that beginning marriage counseling prematurely can actually prevent reconciliation. This may seem counter-intuitive to you. I gather that the reason you are willing to begin counseling now even though your WW is not showing remorse is that you desperately want to save your marriage. However, the wisdom of TAM/CWI is that premature efforts at reconciliation are not just a waste of time but actually counter-productive.

The reason is that, in most cases, until the WS is confronted with unpleasant truths of his or her affair, including the inconvenience, embarrassment, reprobation, hostility and all the other negative consequences of being a cheater, he or she will continue to live the fantasy of having two separate lives, one with the BS and another with his or her lover. This is known as "cake-eating." It is only when the BS destroys in at least some measure the WS's family life that the wayward begins to come to grips with his or her betrayal, because it is only then that the wayward is forced to make a choice.

The the longer you allow your WW continue to eat cake by putting off forcing her to make this choice, the more she detaches from you and bonds with her lover. Once this detachment-from-BH/bonding-with-lover process is complete, reconciliation becomes impossible because, when she eventually is forced to make the choice, she will choose her lover.

I gather that you don't believe your WW is so far gone that there is no chance of her returning to you. If so, then your job now is to do everything you can to force her to make the choice -- remaining your wife or ceasing to be your wife.

You won't accomplish this by starting marriage counseling while she continues to cheat on you. All you will do is hasten the day that she leaves you for good.


----------



## Working1

Suspecting2014 said:


> As long as they are on contact the R wont be possible, at least not a realone


This is true.


----------



## Working1

ConfusedInCali said:


> Update, as the OP:
> 
> 
> Quick summary of my situation: I moved out as she said she needed space, wife cheated, I discovered, evidence leads me to believe and confirm she had cut it off before confrontation, but wife was still not willing to go to counseling or work on our marriage.
> 
> That said...
> 
> Since last week, I started the 180. Started speaking to her much less unless I needed to for the kids, showed no interest in her life, moved on with my own life by keeping myself busy with old friends, new hobbies, etc.
> 
> Last night, I went over to our house and told her I'm filing for a divorce. She started an outrage about the fact that it's been only 3 months since I moved out, thinks I have met somebody, yelled at me for being cold to her the last 2 weeks, not wanting to talk to her, or even sit next to her, etc. (seems that 180 worked?)
> 
> Anyhow, I told her she has a choice, we either are FULLY committed to working on saving our family which means: being 100% committed to counseling, being 100% committed to talking through our issues, and me moving back into the house.
> OR
> We tell all our parents next week at Thanksgiving that we're going through a divorce, and let's just do the divorce. That also means us selling the house and she needs to move out.
> 
> Her reaction: she flipped out again saying it's only been 3 months and that working on us isn't a priority as she has school that just started on Monday of this week, and said she is focused on that and our kids. I told her, well it's your choice what you want to do.
> 
> This morning at 4am, I get a text from her saying "ok, i will go to counseling and try. but i don't want to start until Dec since i just started school yesterday. is that ok?"
> 
> A few questions that I'd like input on:
> 
> 1a. How genuine is this that she is willing to try for reconciliation? I mean, if last night she was saying she's not ready to work on us....does that mean she's already gone and she's just doing this to avoid trouble with moving out, etc.? I guess actions speak louder than words going forward so perhaps I should just take it with a grain of salt, until we actually see true effort in reconciliation during the process?
> 
> 1b. If her heart isn't there (based on what she said last night about not ready to work on us), should we even try R? I'm thinking, she could just be going through the motions? Or is it possible as a couple going through the motions, the love re-ignites?
> 
> 2. Now that she has said she will try to work on us.....do I continue to do the 180? Seems like I shouldn't right? I mean, if the path is to move towards reconciliation, BOTH parties need to try and communicate, work with each other, show interest, listen, etc. (which is contradictory to the 180?) Not sure how to apply this now??


yes, it is possible to fake it till you make it. just being around you can help her get to where she needs to be. However, you need to pull back every time you feel like she is getting a bit too comfortable, keep her on her toes, but show her a good time as well.


----------



## Working1

ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks for the input folks. I'll let her actions speak for itself, over the next days/weeks.
> 
> And yes, fully agree that she is still trying to dictate the terms of any effort for R. I understand this can't happen.


Her attitude towards you and your marriage should imply that reconciling with you is her number 1 priority.


----------



## badmemory

I can't necessarily disagree with Carmen Ohio about continuing with the MC. But my guess is that you will do it anyway.

At least; only use the first session to discuss your wife's no contact, her remorse, and commitment to the marriage. Tell her and the counselor that needs to be discussed and sorted out before you are willing to go any further.


----------



## SevenYears

ConanHub said:


> Absolutely! That little POS used his trusted position to fvck the married mother of a kid put in his trust.


the very least let the fathers know. How do you think they'll feel about their wives being around someone who will happily try to sleep with another mans wife.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

badmemory said:


> I can't necessarily disagree with Carmen Ohio about continuing with the MC. But my guess is that you will do it anyway.
> 
> At least; only use the first session to discuss your wife's no contact, her remorse, and commitment to the marriage. Tell her and the counselor that needs to be discussed and sorted out before you are willing to go any further.


Good advice. Thank you. I was thinking along the same lines. Using the first session to talk about commitment, or we just move forward with our own lives.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

carmen ohio said:


> Dear ConfusedInCali,
> 
> Many of the responses to your post above have either explicitly or implicitly indicated that there would be no harm in starting marriage counseling now. I disagree.
> 
> There are at least three reasons for not starting marriage counseling before both parties are genuinely committed to reconciliation.
> 
> The first is that it is a waste of time and effort. In order for reconciliation to succeed, both parties have to be fully committed. But it's even worse than a waste of time. If your WW is not rely committed but you are, then you are not only wasting your time, you are delaying making the other progress you need to make -- such as detaching and rebuilding your self-esteem and self-confidence -- in order to heal yourself. You sort of address this issue by saying that you intend to _"continue focusing on [your]self"_ but, if you really do this, then you yourself are not committing 100% to reconciliation and that diminishes the likelihood of success.
> 
> The second reason is that there is a risk of a false reconciliation. We see this often on TAM/CWI. Often, the BS, usually a husband, is so desperate to reconcile that he overlooks the WS's failure to do what she needs to do to help him heal and to confront her own issues. At some point in the future, the BH finally wakes up to the fact that his reconciliation is a sham, often when the WW cheats again or because, even after years or trying, he still has not healed from her adultery. Based on the experience here, it is rare if not unheard of that the BS succeeds in fixing his or her marriage when the WS is not genuinely remorseful.
> 
> The third and in IMO the most important reason is that beginning marriage counseling prematurely can actually prevent reconciliation. This may seem counter-intuitive to you. I gather that the reason you are willing to begin counseling now even though your WW is not showing remorse is that you desperately want to save your marriage. However, the wisdom of TAM/CWI is that premature efforts at reconciliation are not just a waste of time but actually counter-productive.
> 
> The reason is that, in most cases, until the WS is confronted with unpleasant truths of his or her affair, including the inconvenience, embarrassment, reprobation, hostility and all the other negative consequences of being a cheater, he or she will continue to live the fantasy of having two separate lives, one with the BS and another with his or her lover. This is known as "cake-eating." It is only when the BS destroys in at least some measure the WS's family life that the wayward begins to come to grips with his or her betrayal, because it is only then that the wayward is forced to make a choice.
> 
> The the longer you allow your WW continue to eat cake by putting off forcing her to make this choice, the more she detaches from you and bonds with her lover. Once this detachment-from-BH/bonding-with-lover process is complete, reconciliation becomes impossible because, when she eventually is forced to make the choice, she will choose her lover.
> 
> I gather that you don't believe your WW is so far gone that there is no chance of her returning to you. If so, then your job now is to do everything you can to force her to make the choice -- remaining your wife or ceasing to be your wife.
> 
> You won't accomplish this by starting marriage counseling while she continues to cheat on you. All you will do is hasten the day that she leaves you for good.


This post really hit home for me. I wasn't sure if starting counseling is right as well, unless I know she is fully committed, and I will observe her actions more than words.

I've started exposing this to some of our closer friends, and have told her I've done this. She seems to be very ashamed and wonders how to handle dealing with them. I didn't provide answers, it's something she needs to deal with how to handle our friends as part of the consequences.

I also told her that she has until after Thanksgiving next week to decide if she wants to do reconciliation or I'm filing. I know I can follow through with this now. I also set boundaries on her showing commitment, going to MC, being transparent with her phone and laptop, etc. Anything less and I see no other path but moving towards a divorce.

Since then, she's starting to be more on the submissive end: i.e., asking "is it ok to start MC in a couple of weeks?", or "i'm willing to try, can we start slow?". I know I shouldn't be taking very much from this and let actions speak for itself, but it's a huge swing from last week and prior where everything was in her demands: "no MC", "i want to take our time." Nonetheless, at this point I don't think she's wholeheartedly there for working on our marriage. I'll give her this week to make a choice.

Anyhow, regarding her affair - my best guess is that it has completely stopped before I confronted her - based on phone records, etc. That said, do I still wonder since I don't see her very much? Sure, I do wonder. And sure, she could have another phone. I did snoop around on her phone a couple of weeks back and it appears that she told her 3 closest girlfriends saying it was a huge mistake, etc. Do I genuinely think she is remorseful and ashamed? Perhaps, but not enough to get back with me. As such, I think they are 2 different issues and perhaps she is already gone or almost gone with her feelings for me. Her quote from a couple of weeks back: "I'm not saying I don't want to work on us, but I'm saying I'm not ready to work on us." I know many will point out that perhaps she is still involved. I don't know for sure, but I would say likelihood is small. Nonetheless, I planted a GPS tracking system into the car and a voice recorder - I haven't discovered anything scandalous yet, but will keep monitoring for a few weeks.

So the question: is she still IN love with me? I don't think so, otherwise, she would have jumped on the opportunity to win me back. That said, I'm forcing her to make a decision for working on us or parting ways, by end of next week. At least I now know I'm prepared to file for divorce where I don't think I was as strong several weeks back.


----------



## Q tip

Suspecting2014 said:


> Reach him and ask him for the full truth, threaten him with exposing.
> 
> Go where he is with out warning and talk to him.
> 
> Be very discreet, dont tell your wife and be very observant on her reactions, this way you could know if they are still in contact.
> 
> Of course, based on his answers you can decide the level of exposing, it all will depend on what you will be willing to do, R or D.


No, expose for all you're worth. Hard and fast. This is chess, not checkers...

Have her served. Take your power back. She wanted alone time with OM. Geeze. Get STD tested. Expose far and wide. Family and friends.

If she comes back, probably because he dumped her. Only when the affair is busted can you decide on R. Keep the D active as leverage. You can move to D any time. Next week or 5 years from now. 

State your terms and conditions. Take charge. Alpha up and stay that way. MMSLP is your guide. 

This is not a negotiation . She lost that right when she stepped out of your marriage to F the OM. Personally, if her mouth was around OM, she would never come close to me ever again. But this is your life.


----------



## LostViking

From everything I've read, I do not believe she loves you, nor has she loved you for a long time. I believe her affair was an exit affair. Had it not been a 25 year old it would have been some other guy. 

I believe she is stringing you along, hoping to keep you on the hook to help her with the kids and for money. You should divorce her and find one who loves you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

ConfusedInCali said:


> This post really hit home for me. I wasn't sure if starting counseling is right as well, unless I know she is fully committed, and I will observe her actions more than words.
> 
> I've started exposing this to some of our closer friends, and have told her I've done this. She seems to be very ashamed and wonders how to handle dealing with them. I didn't provide answers, it's something she needs to deal with how to handle our friends as part of the consequences.
> 
> I also told her that she has until after Thanksgiving next week to decide if she wants to do reconciliation or I'm filing. I know I can follow through with this now. I also set boundaries on her showing commitment, going to MC, being transparent with her phone and laptop, etc. Anything less and I see no other path but moving towards a divorce.
> 
> Since then, she's starting to be more on the submissive end: i.e., asking "is it ok to start MC in a couple of weeks?", or "i'm willing to try, can we start slow?". I know I shouldn't be taking very much from this and let actions speak for itself, but it's a huge swing from last week and prior where everything was in her demands: "no MC", "i want to take our time." Nonetheless, at this point I don't think she's wholeheartedly there for working on our marriage. I'll give her this week to make a choice.
> 
> Anyhow, regarding her affair - my best guess is that it has completely stopped before I confronted her - based on phone records, etc. That said, do I still wonder since I don't see her very much? Sure, I do wonder. And sure, she could have another phone. I did snoop around on her phone a couple of weeks back and it appears that she told her 3 closest girlfriends saying it was a huge mistake, etc. Do I genuinely think she is remorseful and ashamed? Perhaps, but not enough to get back with me. As such, I think they are 2 different issues and perhaps she is already gone or almost gone with her feelings for me. Her quote from a couple of weeks back: "I'm not saying I don't want to work on us, but I'm saying I'm not ready to work on us." I know many will point out that perhaps she is still involved. I don't know for sure, but I would say likelihood is small. Nonetheless, I planted a GPS tracking system into the car and a voice recorder - I haven't discovered anything scandalous yet, but will keep monitoring for a few weeks.
> 
> So the question: is she still IN love with me? I don't think so, otherwise, she would have jumped on the opportunity to win me back. That said, I'm forcing her to make a decision for working on us or parting ways, by end of next week. At least I now know I'm prepared to file for divorce where I don't think I was as strong several weeks back.


Well, you're not the first person here to disregard the advice and go your own path, and you won't be the last. Just like you won't be the last one to be telling newbies in a few months how much you wish you had followed the advice.


----------



## Q tip

Nucking Futs said:


> Well, you're not the first person here to disregard the advice and go your own path, and you won't be the last. Just like you won't be the last one to be telling newbies in a few months how much you wish you had followed the advice.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

QFT 

time and time again -- the BH beta script response plays out...

"You can F OM until after Thanksgiving 'cause I am really really serious and, and, and..."

Come January it'll be another soft ultimatum. Only because you're absolutely really serious... this time for sure.

Sorry. NF has it nailed.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

So you put your foot down... and gave her a week, or so, to figure out if she can leave you now, or if she has to wait until she gets her ducks in a row.

You do realize that if she decides to stay with you, it is most likely because her getting a D right now doesn't work for her.

If she had an affair with a OM that had the ways and means to take care of her, she'd probably already left so fast, there'd be a cloud of dust behind her. Like when the Road Runner takes off on Wyle E. Coyote


EDIT: Sorry folks. I had to delete the cartoon. I didn't realize how big it was and it's making the sentences on every ones posts run clear off the screen.


----------



## Q tip

Sh!t Test probably. The worst one... By you not going caveman and claiming your property, she has all the evidence she needs to play you until shes tired of it and moves on.

OP, you simply cannot bore her back.

If you read MMSLP a few times, you would get this.


----------



## warlock07

You think this wasn't physical?


----------



## ConanHub

He knows it was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusedInCali

Appreciate the candid feedback, folks. 

What you guys are saying is that D is almost certainly inevitable in the future, anyways? And there's no point in working through this? (at least not right now given her state of mind)


----------



## G.J.

ConfusedInCali said:


> Appreciate the candid feedback, folks.
> 
> What you guys are saying is that D is almost certainly inevitable in the future, anyways? And there's no point in working through this? (at least not right now given her state of mind)



Only been on this site a couple of weeks and these guys do inform people the best way to go and 'shock and awe' works it seems in most cases as any other method strings out and causes considerable more heartache.
D is not inevitable as it depends on her reactions and if *she recommits* and then you have to decide if *YOU *want to


----------



## ConanHub

You might consider R if she was on her knees begging for forgiveness for being such a skanky ho with her face glued to your crotch.

You get the idea.

She does not seem remorseful at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

ConfusedInCali said:


> Appreciate the candid feedback, folks.
> 
> What you guys are saying is that *D is almost certainly inevitable in the future*, anyways? And there's no point in working through this? (at least not right now given her state of mind)


What we're saying is that D is almost certainly inevitable in the future _the way you're handling it. _You've already ****ed around too much. 

Your next message to her needs to be "You don't want it bad enough, I'm filing and we'll tell the families at thanksgiving". And not as a threat, but as a statement of what's happening. Have you even seen a lawyer yet? If so, call him tomorrow and tell him to file.

If she tries to talk you into trying again there are a few subtle clues you should look for to see if she means it.

1. Is she laying on the floor sobbing?
2. Are snot bubbles forming on her nose?

You get the idea. She nonchalantly admitted to cheating on you. There's no remorse in that, and there's no remorse in anything else she's done since. Refresh my memory, where are you living again? In your home or elsewhere? If not in your home, whose idea was it for you to leave?


----------



## Nucking Futs




----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Look, we would like nothing more than to here that your wife want's to stay in the marriage. But for the right reasons.

From what you've written here so far, she has not showed any of the signs that she WANTS to stay married to you. When you told her that she had until T-givings day to decis, she should have told you right then and there that she wanted to try to work things out with you.

If she has to think about whether she should stay married for a week to decide, and she decides stay. How long before she ecides that leaving is the better choice for her?...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this ending well for you if she's so non committal about R. I feel that if she stays, it's only to suite her needs right now, not because she's sorry and doesn't want to D.

I hope I'm wrong, I really do. But me being on the outside, looking in, uneffected by the emotions you're feeling right now, I don't see her thinking about wanting to stay. I see her weighing her options.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Cali,

at the end of the day what we say will not matter what you do will, R or R can only be in play if both parties are involved in one there is a dissolvement of the marriage in the other a commitment to make it work. But you need to ask yourself?....can she be completely honest with you...can she be transparent going forward that mean give up all passwords, place herself in your hands completely?...can she do the heavy lifting required to keep you?.....can you forgive (not forget)?...can you build a better marriage from the ashes?


----------



## Working1

G.J. said:


> Only been on this site a couple of weeks and these guys do inform people the best way to go and 'shock and awe' works it seems in most cases as any other method strings out and causes considerable more heartache.
> D is not inevitable as it depends on her reactions and if *she recommits* and then you have to decide if *YOU *want to


shock and awe works temporarily, but if somebody just needs time to adjust to the idea of getting divorced, then it is only buying time, and that goes for both sides.

You can definitely shock some people out of their fantasy though, some people just need you to put the hammer down. And when the time is right, it can work wonders.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Cali----you got your answer to all of this---as to what is uppermost important to her

You offered MC---and wanted to begin to work on things---what was her answer------she wanted/demanded a delay to saving the mge---SO SHE COULD START HER COLLEGE CLASSES-----what does that tell you

does she need her degree so she can stand on her own two feet, because she will need a job, when she cheats again, and you DO D her

Drop the MC for now---and if you want counseling---you should go to an IC

Your wife allowed another man inside of her---destroying your trust, and at this point wrecking the mge----and she continues to fight you on all issues----(maybe finally she is beginning to see, that she has messed up)---you offered the greatest gift she will ever receive, A SECOND CHANCE----she chose her college classes over your offer of a 2nd chance----WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU????????


----------



## Suspecting2014

IMO there are 2 facts to consider in order to save your marriage:

1.- You are Plan B, she knows you will be there and took your for granted. That’s why she is “accepting”, not “wanting”, to go to MC. You have done everything she asked, leave house and give her space, after DDay is like you already forgave her… You are sending the message that no matter what she does you will always be there to take her back!

2.- Something has made her want to leave and until you figure it out and cope it this will make your R attempt almost impossible. Maybe a MLC, maybe this OM, maybe another OM… something that’s has made her wonder what is she missing out there but, as refer in fact 1, blinded her to what she could lose.

I believe you should do 1 thing:

STOP BEING PAN B, STOP BEING FOR HER NO MATTER WHAT! 

To achieve this you should make her crystal clear that after being apart and her cheating, you realize that you can live without her and you and your kids going to be just fine.

Make her know that you are no longer afraid to lose her that you love her but you are not willing to be in nothing but a good marriage. 

Typically this will slap her into real word.

IMO you should do this on the first MC session and let her know that the next sessions will take place only if she is not “accepting” but “looking for” fixing your marriage.

In other hand, you should expose to your and her family, I know you already did to some mutual friends, but in other to get her to real word she must own her mistakes not only to you but her family and yours (parents, siblings, etc). This way if she looks for support on her doings she won’t find it. This last lead us to the remaining point, confront and expose the OM, this way, if he was the cause of your wife doubting once confronted he will run away showing her that they were just a fling and nothing more. This is very important to cut her safe net is still in contact. Squeeze him the truth out of him; knowing and comparing her version and his will help you in R to rebuilt trust. 

Side Note: At this point you are sure you want to R but, as you can read in TAM, R is not just a choice, even is your wife is willing and doing everything right and you are trying really hard, there is a chance that you won’t be able to succeed in R. Read “if R is not working...even with WS doing all the right things” by CantBelieveThis.

Very important, no matter what you decide to do keep posting, there are very experience and wise people in TAM that can really guide you through this ordeal ( not talking about me).

Good luck


----------



## Suspecting2014

Just one more thing, get legal advise asap and get back to your housr, be cause in a court you may look like a walk away father. Be prepare for the worst...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You are a pleaser, a nice guy. The one people will take advantage of just like your wife. Your methodology is to please someone so that they will stay with you. You keep giving and giving, hoping for something in return. This is a position of weakness. You don't see the value in yourself, and to over compensate by giving more, you let people step all over you, hoping for affection.

Your reconciliation will most likely fail because your wife does not see the value in you, besides a paycheck. If you look at your behavior, it does not seem to scream respect. Since you lack self-respect, your wife lacks it for you too. That is why she has been calling the shots, even though when she has been in the wrong. I wouldn't be surprise if she left you if something better came along. Right now she is weighing her options, and thinking what is best for her, not what is the best for the two of you, or she is not thinking what is best for the family. 

You don't see any of this, because you placed her too high on a pedestal. She may have been a better person before, but since she has been with you, you spoiled her and could have contribute to her devolving as an individual. You certainly did not help her grow as a person. You have trained her to walk all over you.

You should not even consider reconciliation, until you find your self worth. If you can't, your children will have a poor excuse of a strong male role model. Maybe that is what your wife is seeking, a strong male presence for her children to be like. She perceives you as a weak male, and she wants what is best for her children. I know that she does not want her children to end up like a doormat.

End rant.


----------



## Wazza

Starting divorce proceedings is not the same as divorcing.

Even if you reconcile, the marriage you had is dead. You are not accepting that yet. If it continues, it will be different.

Right now you are banking up future problems. for yourself. Things that you are pushing down now will come back to torture you later. What she did with the other guy will always hurt, but so will the fact that she chose her school over you. 

Honestly I know it hurts, but you are better to face the situation and resolve it. 

I don't know whether your marriage has a future, but in your shoes I would get legal advice, position myself as best I can, and start the divorce. I would do counselling only if she suggests it, and I would continue with the divorce process at the same time. If she isn't interested enough to do that, well, sorry, but you have your answer.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

ConfusedInCali said:


> Appreciate the candid feedback, folks.
> 
> What you guys are saying is that D is almost certainly inevitable in the future, anyways? And there's no point in working through this? (at least not right now given her state of mind)


Yes and No. D may not be inevitable, but if you don't do the 180 utterly and completely and initiate divorce now, then your marriage, if it continues, will do so as the sham it currently is.

You do the 180 to detach, to prepare yourself for life after your cheating spouse, to gain your own independence and your self-respect back (because right now it's in the toilet and your wife knows it), and . . . if and when your wife notices you basically saying "bye honey, hope you have a nice life with your lover boy, don't let the door hit you on the way out," and working on building a new life for yourself, she may come out of the clouds.

But don't expect her to. She may, she may not. This is for you, not her.


----------



## Suspecting2014

"No body, including your wife, will ever change unless is forced to"

" The most pointless thing you can do to save your marriage, is the same you have been doing specting a diferent out come"

" Don't try to chance others, change your self and everything will chance"

At this point your worst enemy is your blinfull paralized self!


----------



## LongWalk

When women have sex with other men they generally develop some emotional feelings. How out of love was she with you? Was it an exit affair? Perhaps she was simply flattered by his attention.

If a woman is in love with an affair partner, how will she come out? The best is when the shock of the angry betrayed husband blasts away the infatuation. But there are those whose hearts flip back and forth. Generally, rejection by the betrayed spouse is the best shock.

However, if a man has neglected his wife. Perhaps more neglect will not work. It is hard to send the tough love message – I love you and will meet your emotional needs and yet I am closing the door.
It's not always simple. 

I think I contact and body language are critical.


----------



## Hardtohandle

ConfusedInCali said:


> Anyhow, regarding her affair - my best guess is that it has completely stopped before I confronted her - based on phone records, etc.


My wife had 2 burner phones ( aka throw away phones ).. I caught her with one, but never knew about the second one. My 13 year old son knew about and told me during a therapy session.. 

I'm a Detective of 24 years and I never seen this coming or expected my wife to be like this.. 

Do not put anything past them, they are not the same people we married anymore..


----------



## Q tip

Mr. nice guy...

Read Married Man Sex Life Priner, Athol Kay. Hell, memorize it. Head over to the nice guy reference section. Man up. You've been indoctrinated all your life. Everything you know about women is wrong. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


----------



## happy as a clam

C'mon Cali...

Don't go "soft" on us now!!

Your wife cheated on YOU.

You're giving her a week to figure it out... after Thanksgiving...

C'mon!! What is wrong with this picture!!!

She should be BEGGING you to forgive her, not this "soft" BS of "Can we wait until AFTER the holidays, AFTER I get settled in SCHOOL?" (which you're undoubtedly PAYING FOR)...

"No beyotch!!! No waiting!! I want a decision, RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!! You're not going to continue f-ing the OM while you "make up your mind."

Tonight. Decide. Now or Never. Last offer.

Do it, Cali. She is jerking you around in the worst way.

Expose to EVERYONE on T'giving weekend. Then file.

P.S. Just because you don't have any more cell phone records showing where they are still together, still talking, still sexting, doesn't mean she doesn't have a BURNER PHONE (very common) or chatting it up on "Words with Friends, Ruzzle, Scramble," or any other gaming app.

You are being VERY naive. And suddenly you trust your wife now that the cell phone records are "clean?!" Why would you trust her? She has demonstrated her deceit in the past...


----------



## carmen ohio

ConfusedInCali,

This post indicates progress. You're not yet where you need to be, but you're getting a closer.

Some observations:



ConfusedInCali said:


> This post really hit home for me. I wasn't sure if starting counseling is right as well, unless I know she is fully committed, and *I will observe her actions more than words. [This is good, but see below. ]
> *
> *I've started exposing this to some of our closer friends, and have told her I've done this. [Again, good, but not quite good enough. Exposure should be to family, close friends, clergy and, depending on circumstances, employer and work colleagues. Limiting it to her close friends is letting her off too easily and means not forcing her to face the real shame of her loved ones (mom, dad, siblings, etc.) finding out.]* *She seems to be very ashamed and wonders how to handle dealing with them. I didn't provide answers, it's something she needs to deal with how to handle our friends as part of the consequences. [Good.]
> *
> *I also told her that she has until after Thanksgiving next week to decide if she wants to do reconciliation or I'm filing. [You still don't quite get it. You shouldn't be asking her if she wants to reconcile, that's solely a decision for you to make as the BS. By making it her decision, you are letting her decide the future of your marriage and, in effect, the direction of your life -- a total 'beta' turn off for a woman. The choice you should be forcing her to make is between you or her lover. Either she ends it with him by sending him a NC (no contact) letter approved by you and stating simply that she now realizes what a terrible decision it was to cheat, that all she wants to do now is try to save her marriage and therefore that she never wants to see or her from him again, or you file for divorce.]* *I know I can follow through with this now. I also set boundaries on her showing commitment, going to MC, being transparent with her phone and laptop, etc. Anything less and I see no other path but moving towards a divorce. [This is good but, again, you need her to make a commitment to end her affair and then take the necessary steps.]*
> 
> *Since then, she's starting to be more on the submissive end: i.e., asking "is it ok to start MC in a couple of weeks?", or "i'm willing to try, can we start slow?". I know I shouldn't be taking very much from this and let actions speak for itself, but it's a huge swing from last week and prior where everything was in her demands: "no MC", "i want to take our time." ["[C]an we start slow" is not submissiveness, it's controlling. "I'll do anything you want" is submissiveness.]* Nonetheless, at this point I don't think she's wholeheartedly there for working on our marriage. I'll give her this week to make a choice.
> 
> *Anyhow, regarding her affair - my best guess is that it has completely stopped before I confronted her - based on phone records, etc. That said, do I still wonder since I don't see her very much? Sure, I do wonder. [Until she promises to end it or swears that has ended it, sends the NC contact letter and then maintains NC for significant period of time, you should not "guess" that it has stopped.]* And sure, she could have another phone. I did snoop around on her phone a couple of weeks back and it appears that she told her 3 closest girlfriends saying it was a huge mistake, etc. *Do I genuinely think she is remorseful and ashamed? Perhaps, but not enough to get back with me. [You haven't yet given her ample reason to be remorseful because you haven't convinced her that you are prepared to end your marriage. Until she believes that you are, she will not be truly remorseful but, instead, will continue to justify in her own mind, to you and to others what she did (you didn't pay her enough attention, etc.).]* As such, I think they are 2 different issues and perhaps she is already gone or almost gone with her feelings for me. Her quote from a couple of weeks back: "I'm not saying I don't want to work on us, but I'm saying I'm not ready to work on us." I know many will point out that perhaps she is still involved. I don't know for sure, but I would say likelihood is small. Nonetheless, *I planted a GPS tracking system into the car and a voice recorder - I haven't discovered anything scandalous yet, but will keep monitoring for a few weeks. [Good.]
> *
> *So the question: is she still IN love with me? I don't think so, otherwise, she would have jumped on the opportunity to win me back. [What a silly question. Of course she's not in love with you -- she's in love with the OM. That's why she cheated on you with him. Can she fall back in love with you? That depends on how far gone she is and how attractive you are to her in the future. And remember, women are attracted to strong and self-confident men, not to men who put them on a pedestal and take sh*t from them.]* *That **said, I'm forcing her to make a decision for working on us or parting ways, by end of next week. [Again, you are giving her the wrong choice.]* *At least I now know I'm prepared to file for divorce where I don't think I was as strong several weeks back. [This is the progress I mentioned at the top of this post. Don't forget, the one who is most willing to file for divorce and end the marriage, controls the marriage and the reconciliation process (if there is one).]*


Don't lose heart. You're getting there and faster than a lot of guys do. Time to figure out exactly what you want from her, tell her, tell her that the marriage is over if she doesn't deliver immediately (none of this waiting until after Thanksgiving nonsense) and then follow through with filing for divorce if she doesn't do what you ask.


----------



## carmen ohio

ConfusedInCali said:


> Appreciate the candid feedback, folks.
> 
> What you guys are saying is that D is almost certainly inevitable in the future, anyways? And there's no point in working through this? (at least not right now given her state of mind)


I don't think people are saying this at all, CiC. I think what people are saying is that, if you don't start acting like a real man, then divorce is inevitable. A real man doesn't give his WW a week to decide if she wants to stop cheating or not.


----------



## carmen ohio

Double post.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm confused. I thought there was a one night stand quite awhile back. There is no affair at this point,right?


----------



## carmen ohio

Chaparral said:


> I'm confused. I thought there was a one night stand quite awhile back. There is no affair at this point,right?


Read his first post, Chaparral:



> Anyhow, about 1 month ago I found that she had some lab tests done. I later discovered it was for STD tests. (The tests results did come out clean.) So I confronted her and asked her if she had sexual interactions with somebody else. She denied it on first ask. Then I asked her again and said I need her to be truthful. She then admitted everything. That she started talking to a 25 yo coach in July that she met through my son's basketball camp. She said it started off just texting as friends, but she later "needed to have sex to find out if that was what was missing in her life". (She claim that it happened only once in Aug or Sep and that she is not romantically in love with him as it could have easily been somebody else as she needed to find out if she was missing lust/sexual excitement.) She also said it was a huge mistake and that she's been going through miserable hell feeling guilty for the whole thing. She said she has cut off ties with him even BEFORE I had confronted her.


That's what she told him and we all know what a cheater's word is worth.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

Right, exactly. She said it was a one-timer, but who knows. I do know that the phone records show no contact for a few weeks even before I confronted her and when I did confront her, she had said she cut all ties with him already. 

I also snooped and saw that her texts to her closest GFs admitting the affair and she told them it was a huge mistake.

I have a GPS tracker and VAR in both car and house - nothing scandalous to be found.....yet. 

So do I think the affair is still happening - likely not. But you never know. 

That said, I started reading MMSLP last night and gosh, I've been doing things wrong all these years. I'll be applying some of the things learned from MMSLP immediately. (Finished reading No More Mr. Nice Guy too.)

Regarding the divorce "option" and allowing her time to make a decision to be 100% committed to working on us or we divorce....I"ll be honest with everybody here....part of the time given to her is also now time for myself, but it wasn't originally intended that way. I originally played my cards wrong and gave her the option to decide by end of Thanksgiving, but now based on her reaction it's now making me feel like R might not be right for ME either. 

She was in sobbing tears the night I brought up divorce, but never did she "beg" me back. I'm starting to feel that perhaps R is not right for either one of us anymore. :| I love her still, but I'm not sure this is what I want if she doesn't enthusiastically want to be with me. So in some ways, I'm now a bit lost myself of wanting R or D.

A few weeks ago, I wanted nothing more and was completely adamant that I wanted R. I think my mind just wanted something so bad and was fixated on R, but seeing her reaction now I have some doubts whether that's best for me too. She's obviously not in love with me anymore, or nearly gone... so I've been asking myself the last couple of days: Why would I want to be with somebody who's not excited to be with me? 

And I question if we decide on R, whether she doing it for fear of divorce vs. wanting me as her partner. I understand if the former, sh*t will happen again in the future, no doubt.


----------



## LongWalk

It may take some time for her to discover her feelings for you. The best way to help her on this path is to stand straight, look her in the eye and show that you are not crushed by the thought of life without her because you aren't.

She has to want you. If you are too easy to get, your sex rank value plummets.


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## Wazza

Confused, I reconciled. Still with Mrs Wazza decades later. So my advice was not advocating divorce.

"I've done it all wrong"...well maybe. But "If I had done it differently none of this would have happened". Nonsense. Your wife made a decision. She could make the same decision again tomorrow and there is NOTHING you can do to stop her. 

All the stuff about MMSLP and NMMNG and however many books you want to read...they have some good ideas, but there is NO cookbook. There is NO perfect solution. And some of it is downright silly...people applying pickup artist techniques to a marriage. You can pretend to be what you're not for a night, but a lifetime?

I think its pretty simple. Either she is committed to the marriage, or she's not. All of her actions suggest to me that she's not. I suggested starting divorce because it would bring that fact into sharp relief for her. Right now she's not trying. And if you are the only one trying, its doomed.

Don't act strong. Be strong.


----------



## Wazza

P.S. Looking forward a bit.....in case you decide to reconcile, gather information from other sources and don't tell her. Sadly, its the only way you will be able to check whether she is being truthful.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife with Midlife Crisis with Affair? Or is that even Relevant?*



Wazza said:


> Confused, I reconciled. Still with Mrs Wazza decades later. So my advice was not advocating divorce.
> 
> "I've done it all wrong"...well maybe. But "If I had done it differently none of this would have happened". Nonsense. Your wife made a decision. She could make the same decision again tomorrow and there is NOTHING you can do to stop her.
> 
> All the stuff about MMSLP and NMMNG and however many books you want to read...they have some good ideas, but there is NO cookbook. There is NO perfect solution. And some of it is downright silly...people applying pickup artist techniques to a marriage. You can pretend to be what you're not for a night, but a lifetime?
> 
> I think its pretty simple. Either she is committed to the marriage, or she's not. All of her actions suggest to me that she's not. I suggested starting divorce because it would bring that fact into sharp relief for her. Right now she's not trying. And if you are the only one trying, its doomed.
> 
> Don't act strong. Be strong.


Wazza, I've said this before. I don't agree with everything Athol Kay writes in MMSLP but it is decidedly not applying pickup artist techniques to a marriage. Want to know what I learned from that book? I learned to be more of a leader in my marriage. I learned I need to continually work to stay physically and emotionally attractive for my wife. I learned I need to dress better and not just when we are going out. I learned that she IS communicating many times when before I might not have picked up on it. I learned that my wife is just as important in my marriage as I am but she is NOT the same. She views relationships differently than I do because she is a woman and if I want to keep my marriage fresh I need to sometimes see things through her eyes. I learned that playfulness doesn't always begin in the bedroom. And sometimes that playfulness might be hard play...and that's good. I learned that every single one of us has an ego and sometimes the best thing we can do for our partners is to knock the pedestal right out from under them. But maybe the most important lesson I learned from MMSLP was it's okay to be selfish once in a while and if I don't make sure my needs are being met then I can't blame anyone but myself.


----------



## carmen ohio

bfree said:


> Wazza, I've said this before. I don't agree with everything Athol Kay writes in MMSLP but it is decidedly not applying pickup artist techniques to a marriage. Want to know what I learned from that book? I learned to be more of a leader in my marriage. I learned I need to continually work to stay physically and emotionally attractive for my wife. I learned I need to dress better and not just when we are going out. I learned that she IS communicating many times when before I might not have picked up on it. I learned that my wife is just as important in my marriage as I am but she is NOT the same. She views relationships differently than I do because she is a woman and if I want to keep my marriage fresh I need to sometimes see things through her eyes. I learned that playfulness doesn't always begin in the bedroom. And sometimes that playfulness might be hard play...and that's good. I learned that every single one of us has an ego and sometimes the best thing we can do for our partners is to knock the pedestal right out from under them. But maybe the most important lesson I learned from MMSLP was it's okay to be selfish once in a while and if I don't make sure my needs are being met then I can't blame anyone but myself.


A most impressive post, bfree.


----------



## carmen ohio

ConfusedInCali said:


> Right, exactly. She said it was a one-timer, but who knows. I do know that the phone records show no contact for a few weeks even before I confronted her and when I did confront her, she had said she cut all ties with him already.
> 
> I also snooped and saw that her texts to her closest GFs admitting the affair and she told them it was a huge mistake.
> 
> I have a GPS tracker and VAR in both car and house - nothing scandalous to be found.....yet.
> 
> So do I think the affair is still happening - likely not. But you never know.
> 
> That said, I started reading MMSLP last night and gosh, I've been doing things wrong all these years. *I'll be applying some of the things learned from MMSLP immediately.* (Finished reading No More Mr. Nice Guy too.)
> 
> Regarding the divorce "option" and allowing her time to make a decision to be 100% committed to working on us or we divorce....I"ll be honest with everybody here....part of the time given to her is also now time for myself, but it wasn't originally intended that way. *I originally played my cards wrong and gave her the option to decide by end of Thanksgiving, but now based on her reaction it's now making me feel like R might not be right for ME either. *
> 
> She was in sobbing tears the night I brought up divorce, but never did she "beg" me back. *I'm starting to feel that perhaps R is not right for either one of us anymore. :| I love her still, but I'm not sure this is what I want if she doesn't enthusiastically want to be with me. So in some ways, I'm now a bit lost myself of wanting R or D.
> *
> A few weeks ago, I wanted nothing more and was completely adamant that I wanted R. I think my mind just wanted something so bad and was fixated on R, but seeing her reaction now I have some doubts whether that's best for me too. *She's obviously not in love with me anymore, or nearly gone... so I've been asking myself the last couple of days: Why would I want to be with somebody who's not excited to be with me? *
> 
> *And I question if we decide on R, whether she doing it for fear of divorce vs. wanting me as her partner. I understand if the former, sh*t will happen again in the future, no doubt.*


This is really good stuff, CIC.

You're asking the right questions and you're beginning to draw the right conclusions.

Keep getting stronger. Keep thinking hard about what you really want. Don't settle for anything less.

And don't worry about anybody's decision-making time frame but your own.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> Wazza, I've said this before. I don't agree with everything Athol Kay writes in MMSLP but it is decidedly not applying pickup artist techniques to a marriage. Want to know what I learned from that book? I learned to be more of a leader in my marriage. I learned I need to continually work to stay physically and emotionally attractive for my wife. I learned I need to dress better and not just when we are going out. I learned that she IS communicating many times when before I might not have picked up on it. I learned that my wife is just as important in my marriage as I am but she is NOT the same. She views relationships differently than I do because she is a woman and if I want to keep my marriage fresh I need to sometimes see things through her eyes. I learned that playfulness doesn't always begin in the bedroom. And sometimes that playfulness might be hard play...and that's good. I learned that every single one of us has an ego and sometimes the best thing we can do for our partners is to knock the pedestal right out from under them. But maybe the most important lesson I learned from MMSLP was it's okay to be selfish once in a while and if I don't make sure my needs are being met then I can't blame anyone but myself.


Hey Bfree, good to chat again, been a while. 

I haven't read MMSLP, what I know of it comes from TAM. Some of the ideas people talk about are good. All I am saying is they are not a guaranteed recipe for success. You have to apply them to your circumstances.

Mrs Confused had an affair, kicked her husband out, and is dragging her heels on anything to do with repairing the marriage. I'm struck by the contrast between that and the effort you and others put into working at marriages when things get a bit dry. I wonder what aspect of the affair she thinks was a mistake?


----------



## Chaparral

There are quire a few threads that were heading down this road but were caught earlier because the husband got here earlier.

Your marriage was in trouble and you separated instead of working on it. You're further behind than some that have saved their marriages but that can be overcome.

It surprises me so many are wanting you to divorce, considering the purpose of this forum, and it is one of the milder affairs I have seen here.

I can't provide links to threads that have successfully beat this from this tablet but there are several noteworthy ones here.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Hey Bfree, good to chat again, been a while.
> 
> I haven't read MMSLP, what I know of it comes from TAM. Some of the ideas people talk about are good. All I am saying is they are not a guaranteed recipe for success. You have to apply them to your circumstances.
> 
> Mrs Confused had an affair, kicked her husband out, and is dragging her heels on anything to do with repairing the marriage. I'm struck by the contrast between that and the effort you and others put into working at marriages when things get a bit dry. I wonder what aspect of the affair she thinks was a mistake?


Hey Wazza, how you been buddy.

You're right. There is no guaranteed success blueprint. MMSLP is just a tool like any other and it must be applied correctly. You don't drive in a nail with a screwdriver. But knowledge is power and the more knowledge one has the more powerful they are. My wife has also read MMSLP and thinks its pretty much right on. She knows herself and how women feel and react typically. She acknowledges that sometimes she needs a slap just as much as she needs a hug. But it takes two to make a marriage. It doesn't matter how hard one person works if the other one is not going to put forth any effort. I make sure to be the leader, to keep things fresh, to be both reliable and spontaneous. My wife stays in shape because she knows I enjoy her body. My wife dresses sexy...for me. My wife is also spontaneous in her wicked womanly way. 

The OP's wife is dragging her heels because imo she doesn't think she's losing very much by splitting up. She's just upset about the timing. I'm dubious as to whether the OP will stay married...or if he even should. But if he does decide he wants to reconcile and he gets that chance then imo he needs to worry less about the love in his marriage and work on the respect. Marriages need love but without trust and respect love is not enough. The OP needs to be the strongest man he can be. He needs to get so confident in his own skin that his wife...or any woman is going to injure her neck trying to get a long look. Confidence is contagious and if the OP reeks of awesomeness people will notice.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Detach, and keep working on yourself. Keep growing as a person, and view your marriage objectively. See if your wife seeks help or not. In the mean time, work to be a better you. A healthy you is the goal, and that may be married or not, as long as everyone is content.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Chaparral said:


> There are quire a few threads that were heading down this road but were caught earlier because the husband got here earlier.
> 
> Your marriage was in trouble and you separated instead of working on it. You're further behind than some that have saved their marriages but that can be overcome.
> 
> *It surprises me so many are wanting you to divorce, considering the purpose of this forum, and it is one of the milder affairs I have seen here.*
> 
> I can't provide links to threads that have successfully beat this from this tablet but there are several noteworthy ones here.


It surprises me that, as long as you've been here, you're missing the fact that most of us telling him to file for divorce are not telling him to divorce her. Divorce is a process, not an event, and it can be canceled at any time up until the judge signs the final order, but the act of filing and having her served is a powerful wake up call for the wayward. 

What he's done so far is like posting a sign warning there may be snakes in the area. Filing for divorce and having her served would jump that up to having a snake coiled up and rattling at you. Much more likely to get through and rivet the waywards attention on the problem.


----------



## ConanHub

Chaparral said:


> There are quire a few threads that were heading down this road but were caught earlier because the husband got here earlier.
> 
> Your marriage was in trouble and you separated instead of working on it. You're further behind than some that have saved their marriages but that can be overcome.
> 
> It surprises me so many are wanting you to divorce, considering the purpose of this forum, and it is one of the milder affairs I have seen here.
> 
> I can't provide links to threads that have successfully beat this from this tablet but there are several noteworthy ones here.


I'm confused now. What is the purpose of this forum? Marriage at any cost?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

ConanHub said:


> I'm confused now. What is the purpose of this forum? Marriage at any cost?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's worth working at a marriage. Acceptable level of cost varies by who you are.

The affair is only part of the story here. The separation and resistance to doing anything that looks like working on the marriage is the core issue.


----------



## Q tip

Phone records clean? Ever heard of a burner phone. She has several by now.


----------



## ConanHub

Wazza said:


> It's worth working at a marriage. Acceptable level of cost varies by who you are.
> 
> The affair is only part of the story here. The separation and resistance to doing anything that looks like working on the marriage is the core issue.


I am all for working for a healthy marriage. When some idiot decides to cheat, that pretty much overrides other issues until fully resolved.

I believe OPs health is worth far more than trying to work it out with his twisted, unremorseful bimbo of a wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting2014

Q tip said:


> Phone records clean? Ever heard of a burner phone. She has several by now.


As you don't know, expose OM.
It also will show your W that you are un control an fearless of doing whats rigth for you


----------



## Divinely Favored

Stillasamountain said:


> He might not have proof that the affair is ongoing but the situation seems pretty fishy. And if she is still in the fog... exposure would be one of the important tools for snapping her out of it, right?



He don't have proof of anything still going on ...he will not either if he is not LIVING AT HOME where he can monitor her communications. MOVE HOME


----------



## Divinely Favored

How long have you been out of the house for? Some states you can file abandonment at 90 days. You may loose any claim to the residence if she files....you may be SOL in divorce.


----------



## Chaparral

ConanHub said:


> I'm confused now. What is the purpose of this forum? Marriage at any cost?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The purpose is to help people accomplish what they want to do. 

I don't think I would reconcile with anyone that stabbed me in the back. 

Others have a different take.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

intheory said:


> I will never understand why a _betrayed_ spouse *ever* leaves the home.
> 
> Obviously, if there were domestic violence too, then that would be a reason.
> 
> But I sure see it a lot on TAM. Wife cheats; husband moves out of the house.:scratchhead:


Intense pain


----------



## happyman64

Confused

You are getting there. Less confused as each day goes by.

And you are right. Why on earth would you want to be with a woman who does not know if she wants to be with you?

But I also want to pint something out to you.

She cheated. She made a conscious decision to have sex with some one outside of your marriage.

She has lied to you.

She has put her self and her future above your marriage.

Her desire to get you out, have sex with another man and then decide to re-educate herself so she can go in a different direction with her life all point o something very basic.

Your wife is a selfish b!tch!

I am not saying this to hurt you. Just realize she is not the woman you married. 

She may no longer be wife material at all.

Continue to observe.

If she was my wife I would tell her what a disappointment she has become as a woman, friend, wife and even mother.

Keep posting and let us know how your Thanksgiving was with your family.

HM


----------



## ConfusedInCali

UPDATE: a lot has happened for me in the last 3 days:

As I mentioned previously, I gave her the option about 1.5 weeks ago whether she is fully committed to our marriage or I'll file for divorce after Thanksgiving. As a reminder, I realize that is giving her the control and a sign of weakness. However, I have also used this time to understand if R is right for me as well.

Over Thanksgiving, with my family and her family here - I exposed her regarding the affair. I told my parents about what she has done. They didn't speak to her about it, but I could tell my wife had to act differently around them in our house when they were here - perhaps of the shame. I also told her dad yesterday. He was in shock, in disappointment. They went through a huge crying session together. However, her dad also showed some love for her understanding that perhaps she is confused and going through some pain as well.

Meanwhile, the folks here on TAM are spot on - I snooped and saw on her text messages yesterday to her friends that she is just trying to buy time to get her **** together, and does not see a future for me and her. She says that she is still seeking that excitement, chemistry, connection with somebody - may not necessarily be the other man per se but misses that excitement and "feeling". She did say in her texts that the other guy may not necessarily be best for her - that although she misses him specifically, she perhaps just yearns for somebody who can provide that connection, excitement for her. She did mention that she's trying to get over him - not sure if the guy dumped her, or whatever.

Also, I confronted the other guy yesterday. Turns out as everybody pointed out that my wife has been lying about the number of times they had sex, number of times they met up, the last time they contacted each other, etc. I told him not to contact her again - this is more for me to expose my wife directly today rather than she hear it from him. I want to call her out on this myself. I did not tell her about the confrontation yesterday but will today when I see her in person.

So... with all these new developments. Yes, I'm in extreme pain because I feel that R is no longer an option as I now discovered she doesn't even see a future with us, she wants that excitement and feeling, and most importantly I don't see how I can ever trust her again. I am also angry that she is so fuc*ing selfish to not even care about my well being even as a friend - buying time to get her **** together while I'm suffering???? I'm very disappointed in her.

That said, what are the best logical steps for telling her that I know everything now? Should I tell her I saw her texts - I don't want our common friends to know I snooped on her phone? Is there an optimal way to tell her I confronted the other guy?

What about the divorce process? I would hate to use divorce lawyers and rather settle this with a mediator or ourselves. I believe in California, all attained assets are split 50/50 since the time of marriage. I just feel that lawyers will just end up taking a huge chunk of my assets. In the meantime while divorce is in the works, do I not give her any child support? (She still has rental income from a property that contributes about 1/3 of our combined income.)

We are still in good terms - hanging out with family and kids. Should I be concerned that sh*t could flip any second? Regarding finances, her dad has lots of money so I don't think she would rape me of finances and she'll likely be ok financially, but nothing she has done is rational either.


----------



## GusPolinski

Tell her the following...

1) You confronted the OM and, based on that interaction, you know that she's been lying to you about the extent of the affair.

2) You saw her texts and you know that she's simply biding her time and is looking for a solid way out of your marriage.

_*ETA: Any and all of these "mutual" friends aren't really your friends at all. Think about it... if they were, would she be confiding this crap to them?*_

3) Based on #'s 1 and 2 above, you're done. You want to divorce. However, you want to keep things amicable in order to keep costs at a minimum. Suggest an even split of all marital assets and 50/50 shared custody in order to limit or eliminate child support from either of you.

As for the rest, it's time (for you) to deploy a solid 180!


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## shellgames

I wouldn't say you saw her txts, don't tell her your source


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## ShootMePlz!

Did you forward the texts to your phone??


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## ConanHub

Chaparral said:


> The purpose is to help people accomplish what they want to do.


I like your response but if a poster wants advice on how to shove a running chainsaw up their ass, I will not be an advocate for helping them accomplish what they want to do.


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## happyman64

ConfusedinCali

Did you move back in?

I would just tell her she is an f'n liar and you are tired of the games.

Tell her she will be served shortly and you are going straight to divorce.

If she asks why just tell her you spoke to the OM and confirmed she is a liar.

Tell her you want to finalize the divorce amicably. She owes you that.

Also tell her you are back home until the divorce is settled and the house is sold.

If she puts up a stink then hand her the keys to your apartment.

She will not go but neither should you. If she was done with you and the marriage you expect her to say it to your face and divorce you.

Her lack of respect towards you just shows you she is not the person you married.

Keep her family informed of the actual truth and your desire to end the marriage amicably.

Ask them for their support.

Now she will not leave and might likely date. You have to be a big boy and suck it up.

Now you know why we have advised you so. Her head is not there. She has been seeing this guy longer than she admitted. It is why she is over you.

So get over her.

No being nice to her and keep all conversations only about the kids and the divorce.

We know this sucks but in a year you are going to feel great, look great and realize that there are good women out there for you.

Now finish this mess and turn her off while you are at it.

It is just about you and the kids now. She made it this way but you can make it turn out the best possible way knowing all the facts and the woman you are dealing with.

HM


----------



## carmen ohio

A few comments, CiC:



ConfusedInCali said:


> UPDATE: a lot has happened for me in the last 3 days: . . .
> 
> Meanwhile, the folks here on TAM are spot on - I snooped and saw on her text messages yesterday to her friends that she is just trying to buy time to get her **** together, and does not see a future for me and her. She says that she is still seeking that excitement, chemistry, connection with somebody . . .
> 
> Turns out as everybody pointed out that my wife has been lying about the number of times they had sex, number of times they met up, the last time they contacted each other, etc. . . .
> 
> I don't see how I can ever trust her again. *[You can't. Please don't forget this.]* I am also angry that she is so fuc*ing selfish to not even care about my well being even as a friend - buying time to get her **** together while I'm suffering???? *[Don't forget this, either.]* I'm very disappointed in her.
> 
> That said, what are the best logical steps for telling her that I know everything now? Should I tell her I saw her texts - I don't want our common friends to know I snooped on her phone? Is there an optimal way to tell her I confronted the other guy? *[You don't have to tell her anything and, frankly, the less said the better. Right now, you are angry most likely want to get back at her. Resist the urge. File for divorce then tell her that you've done it. If she asks why, just say because she cheated. The less you tell her, the less information she has to use against you.]*
> 
> What about the divorce process? I would hate to use divorce lawyers and rather settle this with a mediator or ourselves. I believe in California, all attained assets are split 50/50 since the time of marriage. I just feel that lawyers will just end up taking a huge chunk of my assets. In the meantime while divorce is in the works, do I not give her any child support? (She still has rental income from a property that contributes about 1/3 of our combined income.) *[Why would you **ask strangers on the internet for legal advice? That is not smart. Divorce is a legal process and, like all legal processes, it is generally best handled by lawyers. While you can do it on your own, you risk scr***wing yourself over if you don't do it right. So, saving some money on lawyers' fees may cost you in the end.]*
> 
> We are still in good terms - hanging out with family and kids. Should I be concerned that sh*t could flip any second? Regarding finances, her dad has lots of money so I don't think she would rape me of finances and she'll likely be ok financially, but nothing she has done is rational either. *[Yes, you should be concerned. Do not assume that she will not try to sc*w you. In fact, assume that she will eventually try to get as much from you as she can and give you as little as possible. That's what 90% of WWs do and there is no reason to believe that yours will act differently. Once she knows that you plan to divorce her, the two of you become adversaries. That's another thing you need to not forget.]*


BTW, if you haven't moved back home yet, you probably should. At the very least, get legal advice about the implications of your living outside the marital home for the outcome of your divorce (e.g., child custody).

Finally, divorce is one of the most stressful life experiences. Take good care of yourself -- good nutrition, plenty of sleep, lots of exercise.


----------



## the guy

Go dark and make a plan and work the plan.
Don't tell her sh1t...she deserves that much!
Don't you think?


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## the guy

With the new information, you now have a chance to get a few steps ahead of your old lady, instead of being a few steps behind!!!!

Do not say a word!

You guys can hash all this new information out after you serve her with divorce papers.


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## the guy

Sorry Gus, I have to disagree with you.

OP needs the upper hand now.

It's pretty clear the M is dead.


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## Suspecting2014

Expose big time to your family, friends and OMs wife and kids patents. Your wife and OM chose to screw you, you don't own them nothing.

Move in to your house asap, don't inform her in adavance, is your house!

Let her know about D when exposing (maybe an email to everibody), at this point she doesnt deserve any special treatment.

After you are back in and after she get serve, tell her that you want to get D done asap so you and her can move on.


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## GusPolinski

Suspecting2014 said:


> Expose big time to your family, friends and OMs wife and kids patents. Your wife and OM chose to screw you, you don't own them nothing.
> 
> *Move in to your house asap, don't inform her in adavance, is your house!*
> 
> Let her know about D when exposing (maybe an email to everibody), at this point she doesnt deserve any special treatment.
> 
> After you are back in and after she get serve, tell her that you want to get D done asap so you and her can move on.


...and yes, DO move back into your home ASAP!!!


----------



## G.J.

ConfusedInCali said:


> UPDATE: she is just trying to buy time to get her **** together, and does not see a future for me and her. She says that she is still seeking that excitement, chemistry, connection with somebody - *may not necessarily be the other man* per se but misses that excitement
> 
> Also, I confronted the other guy yesterday. Turns out as everybody pointed out that my wife has been lying about the number of times they had sex, number of times they met up, the last time they contacted each other,
> 
> I am also angry that she is so fuc*ing selfish to not even care about my well being even as a friend - buying time to get her **** together while I'm suffering???? .
> 
> .


Sounds to me if she's still seeing OM
When was the last contact ?


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## Suspecting2014

CC, I am so sorry to tell you this, but IMO your wife checked out long ago.

OM was just a symptom not the disease, and others are to come. This doesnt mean you should not expose on his side, her wife, if there is any, has the right to know as the kids parents this POS is training! REMEMBER he chosed to have an affair with a married woman while he was training her kids, this is very wrong!!

She is in a MLC and there is nothing to do about it. She believes that there is more in life and she is missing it by staying with you. REMEMBER It is/was her choice.

At this point you can look back and be proud that you did everything you could to save your marriage, that this is not your fault.

On the brightside, all the cards are on the table now, and as painful as it is, this will aloud you to implement actions and move on ASAP.

Talk to her about the D, dont be mean, don't be emotional, and don't give her room to lie again trying to gain some time. Don't discuss why D, just the terms. REMEMBER, she is a lier and anything she says must be considered a lie.

IMO you should do as follow:

1.- Move back home until a lawyer says that moving out wont affect custody (this must be done YESTERDAY).
2.- Get legal advise.

3.- Fully expose, befor she spreads her twisted version looking for support.

4.- Be prepared for WAR, as she has been doing her will all along this process, once you took control from her she will be mad. This is not the woman you used to know, your wife is long gone, you need to accept it.

5.- Imporve your self, go to IC, GYM, read MMSLP and NMMNG, find a new hobby.

6.- 180 is a must. Do it 100% or dont even bother.

Just one more thing, you may think that after changing your attitude and strategy she will awake and run back to your arms. THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, she needs to fall real hard to realize that the grass is not greener on the other side, and she is just getting started. If she ever wants back in the future, you will decide what to do then.

Keep reading at TAM, keep learning, keep venting on demand.


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## Hardtohandle

CiC

For 3 1/2 months my wife dragged me around with a fake reconciliation attempt as she got her sh!t together..

When I finally caught her yet again lying to me, I painfully knew it was over. I had spent 3500 in counseling at that time. Plus money for Xmas presents along with gifts for this other man. 

I then had to endure yet another 4 months of her leaving the home just about every other day to go meet this other man for several hours. I am pretty sure they weren't playing cards when they met. She would then come home I would imagine with his stuff still inside her. 

I begged and pleaded her not to do such things and to just end this with me and move out. She wouldn't.. At one point she threaten me with my job.. I am a Cop.. I had to suck it up.. 

It was painful and demasculating in many ways.. I knew it would ruin my career and I was in line for promotion and I also knew it would bounce me out of that as well. I had to STFU and just eat it.. I told her she didn't have to burn this bridge this way.. We had 2 boys together, no reason to end our 20 year relationship this way..

Nonetheless she did end it without any remorse or Pity. She pretty much treats me like I had the affair(s). 

She left in April 2013. to this day we hardly speak or text.. 

What I can tell you is I truly wanted to totally crush her and the boyfriend.. I wanted to hurt them really, really bad.. But I couldn't because I had to think of my kids.. I couldn't let me my kids down.. I was their dad.. 

So I sucked it up and just did what everyone told me to do.. Never say a bad word about her to my kids and did the best I could. I went to therapy like religion and still do.

I got my promotion in Oct 2013. I was there with the boys and the new Girl Friend. 

Today my boys live with me and my Ex wife pays me child support. 

Mind you I am not going to tell you it was a bed of roses with the current Girl Friend.. We had our ups and downs.. Much of it was me with my insecurity issues. Some of it was her with her own issues. But a bad day with the Girl Friend is still better than a great day with the EX wife.. We are committed to working things out and thats all that matters to me and her. 

But even if for some reason things don't work out for me and the GF.. I know there are many women out there who dealt with the same thing I have been through just waiting for a good guy to come along.. 

When you're ready to cut her loose you will.

I know right now you are beside yourself because you can't believe who this woman is.. Trust me many of us have been there. 

It gets better and easier you just have to endure the pain to get to that point.. Again trust me there were times I just didn't think I could go on any more.. I just could not see a life without my ex wife.. But today I see it was foolish and I just needed to wait.. 

Keep posting..


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## ConfusedInCali

Thanks folks for the feedback. Appreciate it.

So I told her everything yesterday - that I confronted the other guy, know that she has been lying after the number of times they met, had sex, etc. (Their last contact she reached out to him 3 weeks ago via text in a few exchanges, but apparently did not meet up.) I truly believe that she doesn't see a future with him per se, but she wants that excitement and chemistry with another person. Put it this way, if this other guy was more similar to her age and could support her, I think she would have progressed further with him. He's only 26 and likely doesn't have the means to support her.

After I told her all that and I can't ever trust her ever again, I told her I'm filing for a divorce. She begged and pleaded to me that she can't imagine living without me. She wouldn't let me leave the house and just begged and cried for me to stay. However, I'm thinking she is more afraid of the unknown of life without me rather than wanting me as her husband? Later that night, she asked to come over to my apartment and talk about the finances, and other things. We spent most of the time talking about the relationship. She said she now realized how selfish she is, never thought of it in my perspective and my pain, and kept apologizing. She didn't beg for a second chance per se, as I kept saying to her that I can't trust her again. Also, she said she now realizes the cost of our entire lives just flushed down the drain for a couple of months of fun wasn't worth it. 

Sigh, wow this sh*t is just so hard to bear. Never imagined it. I plan to just move forward with the divorce paperwork but to be honest, I still want to be with her but also understand that I can't trust her again and it just likely won't work. Maybe it's that I'm lonely now rather than wanting to be with her particularly. If stuff changes over time, then I could always retract the divorce paperwork months into it. But I don't believe that she came to a revelation in a matter of hours. If she comes back months from now and said she wants back in, then I might believe it. Or do you guys think it's just over, period?

As far as moving back in, I just feel that it's too painful to be around her. I would rather do the out of sight, out of mind thing and just stay in my apartment now.

I understand that there is some risk in being perceived as abandonment. However, as I researched CA law states that abandonment is not a key factor in determining the assets/income split. There is a formula based on time with kids and we have already been splittling the kids' time 50/50. 

That said, am I missing something else here in all of you advising to move back in ASAP?


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## happyman64

Confused

Consult a lawyer about abandonment.

File for divorce.but if you truly have love for your wife then put her to a test.

" WAW I do still have love for you. But I just have zero trust for you at this moment in time.

I am serving you divorce papers as a consequence for your horrible actions.

If you truly want to reconcile the marriage you have 6 months to prove it to me while the divorce runs its course.

The ball is in your court now."

Try that. The conditions being she dies NC, her phone and laptop are open to your inspection at any time.

In the end you might decide she is worth keeping or you might decide to trade up.

The difference is the choice is now yours.

Keep posting but speak to an attorney. 

HM


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## badmemory

confused,

I sense that you aren't really committed to divorce her. If you are, as some other posters have mentioned; it was a mistake to confront her again before you got your ducks in a row. You gave up a tremendous advantage by doing so. I think you wanted to give her a chance to grovel and win you back; and she didn't quite do what you had hoped.

If so, fine. But understand your strategy should be very different when you "know" you want a divorce. You don't talk to her unless absolutely necessary, while you map out your exit strategy to get out as quickly and economically as possible.

You said in a prior post you were "disappointed" in her. I would suggest that instead, you should be *angry* at her. I don't know why you would consider being her plan B. I couldn't have read what you read and only be "disappointed".

Make up your mind on the D sooner rather than later, and if you do decide to D, don't do it half @ss. Go full throttle and continue the 180.


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## Suspecting2014

She is lying, you know right?

From your words I believe you didn't tell her about the texting where she is telling her friends that are only with you until she is ready for a new exiting life.

As you can read in other threads, to succeed in R there is much more than forgive the WS and go to MC. Even when the WS does everything to heal the BS they not succeed. The lower rate in successful R is, IMO, when the cheater lies over and over, because, as you know now, every new discover is a new DD.

IMO, you should proceed and file D ASAP.

Get legal advice about your whole situation ASAP too.

She chose her path, chose to put you in hell for months planning to get rid of you as soon as another POS shows up. Now she telling you what you want to hear to keep her doings acording to her master plan.

Just think about this, you discovered her affair and she instead of came clean and be sincered (sorry but if she doesn't she must open said from DD) she kept lying to get her **** together and dump when Mr existing appears.

For even try R she should be remorseful not for being caught but for the affair and the pain she put you through, but she even knowing that you would be hurt kept her plan.

IMO you should move on and file for D for 2 reasons:

1.- If she realizes that everything is lost she will stop pretendong and you will finally see if she has kept lying.
2.- Only when you are strong enougth and sure you are fine without her you wll be able to know if there is a chance to R.


----------



## Hardtohandle

Did you tell her about the text message to her friend and what was her reaction ?

Trust me I understand your feelings about being with her and being lonely.. Regardless she is a familiar face and you know each other.. 

But trust me when I tell you there are women just looking for a nice guy.. 

Here is how it goes.. Either you have a women in your shoes.. Or you have a women who, like some men decided to play the field and be single and now in their 40s realized how lonely it gets and its all about a fvck thing.. For a women that gets played out fast enough, unless they just settle in with that reality.. In that case they realize it will be just dating and fvcking and nothing serious.

For the most part people want to be together and want a lasting relationship.. So it really isn't that hard to find someone if your really looking..


----------



## Hicks

Things are not so black and white.

Your wife knows what is missing from her life and you know what is missing from her life. She cannot commit back to her marriage because her marriage does not provide her what she needs emotionally. You have to ask her to commit to build a NEW MARRIAGE WITH YOU where BOTH of you are getting your emotional needs met. Will she commit to TRYING to build that with you? Will she recognize that there are no guarantees for success but is she willing to commit to trying?

You will know trying vs not trying. You can make up many rules of what you require. But you need to realize she cannot commit to a crappy emotionless marriage. You have to get her to commit to a future state.

What you know is what she is missing. The wrong assumption that you have to correct is that all the things she is missing are available to her in your marriage.


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## shellgames

My opinion is that it is too soon to tell and only time, with good transparent behavior going forward.


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## azteca1986

ConfusedInCali said:


> I snooped and saw on her text messages yesterday to her friends that she is just trying to buy time to get her **** together, and does not see a future for me and her. She says that she is still seeking that excitement, chemistry, connection with somebody


And that somebody isn't you CiC



ConfusedInCali said:


> After I told her all that and I can't ever trust her ever again, I told her I'm filing for a divorce. She begged and pleaded to me that she can't imagine living without me. She wouldn't let me leave the house and just begged and cried for me to stay.
> 
> She said she now realized how selfish she is, never thought of it in my perspective and my pain, and kept apologizing. She didn't beg for a second chance per se, as I kept saying to her that I can't trust her again. Also, she said she now realizes the cost of our entire lives just flushed down the drain for a couple of months of fun wasn't worth it.


Hallelujah! She's had an epiphany. Christmas is a time for miracles! 

Unless...

She still doesn't see a future with you and is just stringing you along. Call me cynical if you must. Manipulative people take advantage of our good nature. They let us fill in blanks. Your WW knows you'd rather not divorce, so she dangles a little fake remorse to buy her time to get her Sh!t together. And hopes you'll stall the D.

You would be crazy to trust her words now. Go ahead with the divorce, because right now, you have to look after yourself. If she has genuinely seen how shabbily she's treated you, you will see it in her actions way before the divorce gets final.


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## manfromlamancha

Well you now know what she really and truly is. The real question is what are you going to do about it. Fast and decisive action is always the best in a situation like this.

Lets see if you can go for the fastest and most favourable result possible!


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## tom67

manfromlamancha said:


> Well you now know what she really and truly is. The real question is what are you going to do about it. Fast and decisive action is always the best in a situation like this.
> 
> Lets see if you can go for the fastest and most favourable result possible!


It sounds like she will go through many men seeking the "butterflies" of a new relationship and down the road when her sex rank falls and yours is still strong you will find someone much better.
Sad but I see this happening to her.


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## Chaparral

Ask her a question. Ask her if she's been telling people she is looking for another man because she wants the romance and excitement of a new relationship. Do not tell her why you think that. She sounds like she wants more than to just put off the divorce. She's alone half the time now.

Could you forgive what she has already done though?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

OP, I know that you're not detached from her enough yet, but that those conversations with her could cost you.

It's like giving away you position to the other army before the main battle.

The things that she wrote to her friend about getting her sh!t together before leaving you are most likely closer to the truth then anything that she's has, or will say to you.

You let her now that she needs to get her sh!t together now, vs. when you have the D papers served to her.

You may not realize it now, but every time that you talk to her about what you know about her affair and that she was planning on leaving you, you're just helping her with her game plan.

Stop fraternizing with the opposing side.


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## ConfusedInCali

I did tell her about me seeing all her texts when I confronted her yesterday about the other guy. I called her out on "buying time". Her reaction was that she looked ashamed or feeling that she got busted. She tried to justify it by saying, yes I'm still trying to figure out what to do with our marriage. 

So at the end of the day, I told her our marriage is over for 2 reasons: 1. I can't trust her anymore. 2. You're not even in love with me, and you want that excitement. So with these 2 reasons, how can we even stay married?

Truth is, I think she's confused right now with her midlife crisis. I think part of it yes she does want excitement of a new relationship, reliving her 20s, starting a new career, working out again, etc. 

I think she's starting to feel genuinely remorseful. She's apologized and cried so much more the last 2 days than last 2 months. But it's also become more real to her that she can lose me. That said, it doesn't fulfill what she wants in being excited about me, so I can only imagine that further down the line another affair would happen again. The only exception is that perhaps she will recognize this once she is over her midlife crisis. 

I do plan to continue with the divorce paperwork.


----------



## Suspecting2014

ConfusedInCali said:


> I did tell her about me seeing all her texts when I confronted her yesterday about the other guy. I called her out on "buying time". Her reaction was that she looked ashamed or feeling that she got busted. She tried to justify it by saying, yes I'm still trying to figure out what to do with our marriage.
> 
> So at the end of the day, I told her our marriage is over for 2 reasons: 1. I can't trust her anymore. 2. You're not even in love with me, and you want that excitement. So with these 2 reasons, how can we even stay married?
> 
> Truth is, I think she's confused right now with her midlife crisis. I think part of it yes she does want excitement of a new relationship, reliving her 20s, starting a new career, working out again, etc.
> 
> I think she's starting to feel genuinely remorseful. She's apologized and cried so much more the last 2 days than last 2 months. But it's also become more real to her that she can lose me. That said, it doesn't fulfill what she wants in being excited about me, so I can only imagine that further down the line another affair would happen again. The only exception is that perhaps she will recognize this once she is over her midlife crisis.
> 
> *I do plan to continue with the divorce paperwork*.


As you know now, she took you for granted thats why you have been in this hell she put you. Her little fun has make deep wounds in your mind that will take effort and time to heal if ever.

You will see that leaving will heal you faster, thats why they say D is the easy way. IMO this is not your call any more, it was hers and now could be a little too late...

Maybe she is remorse, but you will never know why, been caugth, ashame, facing that she has become a bad person (cheaters when slape to reality have a hard tiome accepting their terrible acts).

The best you can do is serve her and start working on your self. Later and depending on her behavior and how you feel you may think in R, not before.

If she really want to fix her marriage, dont count on that, ask her to read books and seach on intertnet to find the full extent of what she has done.

Keep venting


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## z_man

ConfusedInCali said:


> I think she's starting to feel genuinely remorseful. She's apologized and cried so much more the last 2 days than last 2 months. But it's also become more real to her that she can lose me. That said, it doesn't fulfill what she wants in being excited about me, so I can only imagine that further down the line another affair would happen again. The only exception is that perhaps she will recognize this once she is over her midlife crisis.


I very wise man told me, "It ain't over until she says it's over."

In your case this means, since she is not 'ready' to dump you, then she is not going to let you dump her.

Anything she says is irrelevant, everything she does is, questionable.

edited for clarity


----------



## Tobyboy

ConfusedInCali said:


> I did tell her about me seeing all her texts when I confronted her yesterday about the other guy. I called her out on "buying time". Her reaction was that she looked ashamed or feeling that she got busted. She tried to justify it by saying, yes I'm still trying to figure out what to do with our marriage.
> 
> So at the end of the day, I told her our marriage is over for 2 reasons: 1. I can't trust her anymore. 2. You're not even in love with me, and you want that excitement. So with these 2 reasons, how can we even stay married?
> 
> Truth is, I think she's confused right now with her midlife crisis. I think part of it yes she does want excitement of a new relationship, reliving her 20s, starting a new career, working out again, etc.
> 
> I think she's starting to feel genuinely remorseful. She's apologized and cried so much more the last 2 days than last 2 months. But it's also become more real to her that she can lose me. That said, it doesn't fulfill what she wants in being excited about me, so I can only imagine that further down the line another affair would happen again. The only exception is that perhaps she will recognize this once she is over her midlife crisis.
> 
> *I do plan to continue with the divorce paperwork*.


Start exposing her!!! It's for her own good!!! 
She's about to embark in some destructive behavior if she doesn't hit rock bottom soon!


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## carmen ohio

CiC,

A few observations based on your last two posts:



ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks folks for the feedback. Appreciate it.
> 
> So I told her everything yesterday - that I confronted the other guy, know that she has been lying after the number of times they met, had sex, etc. (Their last contact she reached out to him 3 weeks ago via text in a few exchanges, but apparently did not meet up.) I truly believe that she doesn't see a future with him per se, but she wants that excitement and chemistry with another person. Put it this way, *if this other guy was more similar to her age and could support her, I think she would have progressed further with him. He's only 26 and likely doesn't have the means to support her. [Consider what this means for the future if you attempt to R with her. You will always have to worry that, someday, she may meet a guy whom she is attracted to who is of similar age and has the means to support her.]*
> 
> *After I told her all that and I can't ever trust her ever again, I told her I'm filing for a divorce. She begged and pleaded to me that she can't imagine living without me. She wouldn't let me leave the house and just begged and cried for me to stay. [Please don't misunderstand this to mean that she actually cares about you. It's just another example of of her "it's all about me" attitude. If she really cared about and was remorseful for the pain she has inflicted on you, she would have asked you what she could do to ease your pain instead of trying to prevent you from divorcing her.] However, I'm thinking she is more afraid of the unknown of life without me rather than wanting me as her husband? [Do you really believe there is even a teeny-weeny chance that she truly loves you and wants you for her husband?]* Later that night, she asked to come over to my apartment and talk about the finances, and other things. We spent most of the time talking about the relationship. *She said she now realized how selfish she is, never thought of it in my perspective and my pain, and kept apologizing. She didn't beg for a second chance per se, [maybe I'm reading too much into things but I find it interesting that she begged you not to divorce her and acknowledged that what she did was selfish but she never asked for a second chance]* as I kept saying to her that I can't trust her again. Also, she said she now realizes the cost of our entire lives just flushed down the drain for a couple of months of fun wasn't worth it.
> 
> Sigh, wow this sh*t is just so hard to bear. Never imagined it. I plan to just move forward with the divorce paperwork but to be honest, I still want to be with her but also understand that I can't trust her again and it just likely won't work. Maybe it's that I'm lonely now rather than wanting to be with her particularly. If stuff changes over time, then I could always retract the divorce paperwork months into it. But I don't believe that she came to a revelation in a matter of hours. If she comes back months from now and said she wants back in, then I might believe it. Or *do you guys think it's just over, period? [It's not "over" until one or both of you say it's over. Your emotional ambivalence toward your WW is perfectly understandable and even to be expected. You have loved her for a long time and even the truth of what she has done is not enough to erase those emotions over night. The question for you is, will you be guided by your head (based on what you know to be true about her) or by your heart (based on what you wish to be true about her).]*
> 
> *As far as moving back in, I just feel that it's too painful to be around her. I would rather do the out of sight, out of mind thing and just stay in my apartment now.
> 
> I understand that there is some risk in being perceived as abandonment. However, as I researched CA law states that abandonment is not a key factor in determining the assets/income split. There is a formula based on time with kids and we have already been splittling the kids' time 50/50.
> 
> That said, am I missing something else here in all of you advising to move back in ASAP?** [Again I ask you, why would you assume that strangers on the internet could properly advise you about divorce law in California? Given that this could affect child custody, I think you would be very foolish not to get expert advice before deciding whether to move back or not. Are you really so cheap that you would risk your children's future to save a few dollars?]*





ConfusedInCali said:


> *I did tell her about me seeing all her texts when I confronted her yesterday about the other guy. I called her out on "buying time". Her reaction was that she looked ashamed or feeling that she got busted. She tried to justify it by saying, yes I'm still trying to figure out what to do with our marriage. [This only reinforces the point I made above that she can't quite bring herself to ask for another chance.]*
> 
> So at the end of the day, I told her our marriage is over for 2 reasons: 1. I can't trust her anymore. 2. You're not even in love with me, and you want that excitement. So with these 2 reasons, how can we even stay married?
> 
> Truth is, I think she's confused right now with her midlife crisis. I think part of it yes she does want excitement of a new relationship, reliving her 20s, starting a new career, working out again, etc.
> 
> *I think she's starting to feel genuinely remorseful.** She's apologized and cried so much more the last 2 days than last 2 months. [Why would you believe this? What has she done (not what has she said or how much has she cried, but what has she actually done) to indicate that she is any better of a person now than she was a few days ago?]* But it's also become more real to her that she can lose me. That said, it doesn't fulfill what she wants in being excited about me, so I can only imagine that further down the line another affair would happen again. The only exception is that perhaps she will recognize this once she is over her midlife crisis.
> 
> *I do plan to continue with the divorce paperwork. [This is critical, as you will learn more about how she really feels about you from this than from any conversation you could have or any other action you could take. If after you file she calms down, accepts the fact that you intend to divorce her, says she's sorry, says she is not going to give up on you and hopes that someday you give her another chance, then you will have reason to believe that she is truly remorseful. If, on the other hand, she **continues to make excuses for herself, becomes cold, disagreeable and/or argumentative and delays making or refuses to make decisions about the terms of divorce then, no matter what else she says, you will know that her motivation is still a selfish one.]*


Don't be fooled, stay strong, protect your physical and mental health -- and you will come out of this a better person.


----------



## jnj express

this mid-life crises thing is somewhat overblown---for it happens every 10 yrs----happens at 30, again at 40, and again at 50-------and is not any kind of a reason for cheating

Losing the hot passion---that can be a major problem-----mge is hard work no matter what, and keeping your partner interested, can be part of that problem, if your partner is one that wants NEW AND EXCITING----you obviously can't give her the NEW, as to the exciting, you can do things to keep things interesting----but no matter what, please no more using mid life crises as a reason for her to wreck a mge, and family

She cheated she knew what she was doing every step of the way, and she knew what the fallout would be---------Do Not GIVE HER ANY EXCUSE TO SLIDE OUT OF WHAT SHE HAS DONE

gotta go and prepare for something we NEVER GET IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, A MAJOR RAINSTORM


----------



## Suspecting2014

jnj express said:


> this mid-life crises thing is somewhat overblown---for it happens every 10 yrs----happens at 30, again at 40, and again at 50-------and is not any kind of a reason for cheating
> 
> Losing the hot passion---that can be a major problem-----mge is hard work no matter what, and keeping your partner interested, can be part of that problem, if your partner is one that wants NEW AND EXCITING----you obviously can't give her the NEW, as to the exciting, you can do things to keep things interesting----but no matter what, please no more using mid life crises as a reason for her to wreck a mge, and family
> 
> She cheated she knew what she was doing every step of the way, and she knew what the fallout would be---------Do Not GIVE HER ANY EXCUSE TO SLIDE OUT OF WHAT SHE HAS DONE
> 
> gotta go and prepare for something we NEVER GET IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, A MAJOR RAINSTORM


Facts,

She had unprotected sex with a 26 year POS that was training her son (involving kids in her s..t is very low)

She got caught and lie about it, even felt entitled and kept refusing MC until forced to.

Meanwhile kept planning to cheat again keeping CC as plan B, and if plan A ever appears dump CC. She never cared about CC feelings and consequences to her children and family (At this point she canât even use the cheaters excuse of âthat even cross my mindâ as she did it on purpose)

She got caught about the lying and her true plans, and is not willing to face any consequences.



CC:

At this point you canât believe anything she says, not a word. Her actions from now on will show her true self. DONâT EXPECT ANYTHING AND KEEP MOVING ON; she is not the person you used to know anymore.

Usually I like to write at the end of my posts good luck, but I donât think you need it anymore. You need to keep on the good track, keep your balls and move on without expecting anything from her as it only will keep you un pain.


----------



## warlock07

ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks folks for the feedback. Appreciate it.
> 
> So I told her everything yesterday - that I confronted the other guy, know that she has been lying after the number of times they met, had sex, etc. (Their last contact she reached out to him 3 weeks ago via text in a few exchanges, but apparently did not meet up.) I truly believe that she doesn't see a future with him per se, but she wants that excitement and chemistry with another person. Put it this way, if this other guy was more similar to her age and could support her, I think she would have progressed further with him. He's only 26 and likely doesn't have the means to support her.
> 
> After I told her all that and I can't ever trust her ever again, I told her I'm filing for a divorce. She begged and pleaded to me that she can't imagine living without me. She wouldn't let me leave the house and just begged and cried for me to stay. However, I'm thinking she is more afraid of the unknown of life without me rather than wanting me as her husband? Later that night, she asked to come over to my apartment and talk about the finances, and other things. We spent most of the time talking about the relationship. She said she now realized how selfish she is, never thought of it in my perspective and my pain, and kept apologizing. She didn't beg for a second chance per se, as I kept saying to her that I can't trust her again. Also, she said she now realizes the cost of our entire lives just flushed down the drain for a couple of months of fun wasn't worth it.
> 
> Sigh, wow this sh*t is just so hard to bear. Never imagined it. I plan to just move forward with the divorce paperwork but to be honest, I still want to be with her but also understand that I can't trust her again and it just likely won't work. Maybe it's that I'm lonely now rather than wanting to be with her particularly. If stuff changes over time, then I could always retract the divorce paperwork months into it. But I don't believe that she came to a revelation in a matter of hours. If she comes back months from now and said she wants back in, then I might believe it. Or do you guys think it's just over, period?
> 
> As far as moving back in, I just feel that it's too painful to be around her. I would rather do the out of sight, out of mind thing and just stay in my apartment now.
> 
> I understand that there is some risk in being perceived as abandonment. However, as I researched CA law states that abandonment is not a key factor in determining the assets/income split. There is a formula based on time with kids and we have already been splittling the kids' time 50/50.
> 
> That said, am I missing something else here in all of you advising to move back in ASAP?


You are not stopping the divorce, are you ?

Notice what happened.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

I am continuing with the divorce - will be meeting with some folks tomorrow for processing and filing. I'm taking some of your advice here and moving forward with it - should she show complete remorse by ACTIONS during the processing period AND a committed desire for reconciliation in the next few months, then I will figure it out as we go regarding reconciliation. Being true to myself, as much as I'm feeling betrayed and hurt and know that I must move forward with the divorce, I will say that I also find it hard to completely shut that door on saving our marriage. Meanwhile, I am continuing with my 180 as well to protect myself and detach.

Separately, I'm getting apologetic texts from her such as the below - I'm not sure what to make of it:

"i truly am sorry i want you to know that. and more than ever i know i made the biggest mistake of my life. and if there is any shred of hope that i can regain your respect and trust, i will try. even if it doesn't necessary mean another chance. right now i just want to help ease your pain and devastation."

i saw that she deactivated her Facebook account as well - i did NOT ask her to do that. she did it on her own and said it had been a distraction and she needs to focus on other things now, and that she thought i would be happier that she deleted the account.

she also says she was just beginning to appreciate what she had, rather than what she didn't have...(i guess maybe having all that family time with relatives, etc. during Thanksgiving?) and just when she started seeing the light she said she now sees her whole world crumpling down. i also exposed her to family and her closest friends that didn't know the affair, over this past weekend as well.

she also invited her mom over for this weekend as she is prepared to tell her mom about our situation and her divorce. i'm sure she will admit to the affair, but not sure if she will try to justify it by saying..."feeling bored, having chemistry/connection issues, etc."

anyhow, do i believe her finally being remorseful? maybe some of it, but not entirely convinced. regardless, i'm moving forward with divorce process and 180 and will let her actions speak for themselves in the next few months.


----------



## tom67

ConfusedInCali said:


> I am continuing with the divorce - will be meeting with some folks tomorrow for processing and filing. I'm taking some of your advice here and moving forward with it - should she show complete remorse by ACTIONS during the processing period AND a committed desire for reconciliation in the next few months, then I will figure it out as we go regarding reconciliation. Being true to myself, as much as I'm feeling betrayed and hurt and know that I must move forward with the divorce, I will say that I also find it hard to completely shut that door on saving our marriage. Meanwhile, I am continuing with my 180 as well to protect myself and detach.
> 
> Separately, I'm getting apologetic texts from her such as the below - I'm not sure what to make of it:
> 
> "i truly am sorry i want you to know that. and more than ever i know i made the biggest mistake of my life. and if there is any shred of hope that i can regain your respect and trust, i will try. even if it doesn't necessary mean another chance. right now i just want to help ease your pain and devastation."
> 
> i saw that she deactivated her Facebook account as well - i did NOT ask her to do that. she did it on her own and said it had been a distraction and she needs to focus on other things now, and that she thought i would be happier that she deleted the account.
> 
> she also says she was just beginning to appreciate what she had, rather than what she didn't have...(i guess maybe having all that family time with relatives, etc. during Thanksgiving?) and just when she started seeing the light she said she now sees her whole world crumpling down.
> 
> anyhow, do i believe her? maybe some of it, but not entirely convinced. regardless, i'm moving forward with divorce process and 180 and will let her actions speak for themselves in the next few months.


Good question on if you believe her.
See if she is doing the heavy lifting after she gets served.
Are her close friends and relatives starting to call her on this?
Maybe that helped.


----------



## tom67

Do you notice Confused now that you are not chasing her she is chasing you?
Stay strong only talk about the kids maybe if she cries and begs who knows.


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## badmemory

ConfusedInCali said:


> "i truly am sorry i want you to know that. and more than ever i know i made the biggest mistake of my life. and if there is any shred of hope that i can regain your respect and trust, i will try. even if it doesn't necessary mean another chance. right now i just want to help ease your pain and devastation."


Well, in terms of just words, that's a start. But if I was going to think about R with her, I'd want to hear her asking, if not pleading, for another chance. 

I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm hearing.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife with Midlife Crisis with Affair? Or is that even Relevant?*



badmemory said:


> Well, in terms of just words, that's a start. But if I was going to think about R with her, I'd want to hear her asking, if not pleading, for another chance.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm hearing.


What I heard was a lot of "please forgive me so I don't feel so bad about myself." If she follows up with real action then we'll see.


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## Divinely Favored

What about going after the other man's coaching job. I would be raining hell on his world any way I can. Will she help you file complaints against him? I would be interested to know if she would try to protect him/ dissuade you. Might tell how remorseful she is....I would make it my life's goal to see that this POS never is able to do this to the parents of another child he is coaching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sidney2718

ConfusedInCali said:


> I am continuing with the divorce - will be meeting with some folks tomorrow for processing and filing. I'm taking some of your advice here and moving forward with it - should she show complete remorse by ACTIONS during the processing period AND a committed desire for reconciliation in the next few months, then I will figure it out as we go regarding reconciliation. Being true to myself, as much as I'm feeling betrayed and hurt and know that I must move forward with the divorce, I will say that I also find it hard to completely shut that door on saving our marriage. Meanwhile, I am continuing with my 180 as well to protect myself and detach.
> 
> Separately, I'm getting apologetic texts from her such as the below - I'm not sure what to make of it:
> 
> "i truly am sorry i want you to know that. and more than ever i know i made the biggest mistake of my life. and if there is any shred of hope that i can regain your respect and trust, i will try. even if it doesn't necessary mean another chance. right now i just want to help ease your pain and devastation."
> 
> i saw that she deactivated her Facebook account as well - i did NOT ask her to do that. she did it on her own and said it had been a distraction and she needs to focus on other things now, and that she thought i would be happier that she deleted the account.
> 
> she also says she was just beginning to appreciate what she had, rather than what she didn't have...(i guess maybe having all that family time with relatives, etc. during Thanksgiving?) and just when she started seeing the light she said she now sees her whole world crumpling down. i also exposed her to family and her closest friends that didn't know the affair, over this past weekend as well.
> 
> she also invited her mom over for this weekend as she is prepared to tell her mom about our situation and her divorce. i'm sure she will admit to the affair, but not sure if she will try to justify it by saying..."feeling bored, having chemistry/connection issues, etc."
> 
> anyhow, do i believe her finally being remorseful? maybe some of it, but not entirely convinced. regardless, i'm moving forward with divorce process and 180 and will let her actions speak for themselves in the next few months.


For me the keys are remorse for what she did to you and fact that you don't trust her any more. If you agree, I see no problem with letting her know that these are the main blocks to your emotional recovery. Promise nothing but let her know that these are the two problems she has to find a way to solve.

If she isn't interested, then that's that. But if she is interested and if you are still interested, then at some point you will have to take the leap and trust her again -- at least enough to seriously think about reconciliation.


----------



## warlock07

What do you think changed after you found her texts ? 

She knew what she was doing? She was planning everything. So what changed now ?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

ConfusedInCali said:


> I am continuing with the divorce - will be meeting with some folks tomorrow for processing and filing. I'm taking some of your advice here and moving forward with it - should she show complete remorse by ACTIONS during the processing period AND a committed desire for reconciliation in the next few months, then I will figure it out as we go regarding reconciliation. Being true to myself, as much as I'm feeling betrayed and hurt and know that I must move forward with the divorce, I will say that I also find it hard to completely shut that door on saving our marriage. Meanwhile, I am continuing with my 180 as well to protect myself and detach.
> 
> Separately, I'm getting apologetic texts from her such as the below - I'm not sure what to make of it:
> 
> "i truly am sorry i want you to know that. and more than ever i know i made the biggest mistake of my life. and if there is any shred of hope that i can regain your respect and trust, i will try. even if it doesn't necessary mean another chance. right now i just want to help ease your pain and devastation."
> 
> i saw that she deactivated her Facebook account as well - i did NOT ask her to do that. she did it on her own and said it had been a distraction and she needs to focus on other things now, and that she thought i would be happier that she deleted the account.
> 
> she also says she was just beginning to appreciate what she had, rather than what she didn't have...(i guess maybe having all that family time with relatives, etc. during Thanksgiving?) and just when she started seeing the light she said she now sees her whole world crumpling down. i also exposed her to family and her closest friends that didn't know the affair, over this past weekend as well.
> 
> she also invited her mom over for this weekend as she is prepared to tell her mom about our situation and her divorce. i'm sure she will admit to the affair, but not sure if she will try to justify it by saying..."feeling bored, having chemistry/connection issues, etc."
> 
> anyhow, do i believe her finally being remorseful? maybe some of it, but not entirely convinced. regardless, i'm moving forward with divorce process and 180 and will let her actions speak for themselves in the next few months.




If I were in your shoes, and this is entirely me, I would go through with the divorce. I would take time to heal, and be introspective. It would give me the time to work on me.

Another reason is I would not trust her. Only after she destroyed my trust, destroyed the family, things did not work out for her, she wants to return. Great, now that she fcked things up terribly , she wants to work on it. Only because her life is in shambles, does she now want to fix it. Now that her life is exciting and unstable, she now wants the stability back. It is probably her desire for things to work out between the two of you.

In my case, if I ever got back together again, it will be only a committed boyfriend and girlfriend relationship. She will not get wife status again. Also, she needs to seek help and figure out her issues. She sought external sources for excitement and happiness, when she should seek that within first.

Everyone is different, and you have to be true to yourself. But, I do believe you should see if you can live without her first. She as a partner should only enhance your life, be someone you can trust as a confidant, and a partner to deal with all issues and be a great source of support, and vice versa.


----------



## happyman64

Cali

Judge her by her actions. Not her words.

Be clear with her about your intent.

And let her know the next few months are for her to grow up and prove to you she is worthy of you.

Simple as that.

HM


----------



## carmen ohio

sidney2718 said:


> For me the keys are remorse for what she did to you and fact that you don't trust her any more. If you agree, I see no problem with letting her know that these are the main blocks to your emotional recovery. Promise nothing but let her know that these are the two problems she has to find a way to solve.
> 
> If she isn't interested, then that's that. But if she is interested and if you are still interested, then at some point you will have to take the leap and trust her again -- at least enough to seriously think about reconciliation.


Sidney, your statement that the OP _"will have to take the leap and trust her again"_ is silly. Not only would he be foolish to start trusting her again so soon, there is no need for him to do so even if he wishes to reconcile. In fact, virtually every BH who does attempt to reconcile with his WW keeps very close tabs on what she does precisely because he has learned that she cannot be trusted. The OP should do the same.

Moreover, your advice is inconsistent with the experience of virtually every BH on TAM/CWI, including those who have successfully reconciled with their WWs. It takes years before trust is restored and many report that it never returns completely.


----------



## GusPolinski

carmen ohio said:


> Sidney, your statement that the OP _"will have to take the leap and trust her again"_ is silly. Not only would he be foolish to start trusting her again so soon, there is no need for him to do so even if he wishes to reconcile. In fact, virtually every BH who does attempt to reconcile with his WW keeps very close tabs on what she does precisely because he has learned that she cannot be trusted. The OP should do the same.
> 
> Moreover, your advice is inconsistent with the experience of virtually every BH on TAM/CWI, including those who have successfully reconciled with their WWs. It takes years before trust is restored and many report that it never returns completely.


Sidney is _kind of_ correct, but the way in which he's ordered things is a bit naive and altruistic. It's far too much to ask of any BS -- having recently opted for reconciliation -- to blindly trust his or her WS right out of the gate.

And if it turns out that OP isn't interested in reconciliation and/or his wife doesn't put forth the effort and energy required to properly demonstrate that she wants to reconcile, then it really doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CC: 

She put you in hell for some fun!!! Did it knowing the pain she was puting on you.

She has a lot to prove to even concider R.

Divorce her, if after all she is trying to get you back, then try R. Don't be counting con it, she just proved that is capable of lying as long as she gets what she want.

IMO, you should go dark, ask her to just contact you for children and D matters. This is very important to cope your pain. 

One last thing, don't give her hope, in a couple of months, you will be feeling very diferent, and maybe you wont want to R.

Keep improving your self and a new reallity will show up.

Don't forget to destroy OM, he is a grown man and should face consequences.

Other idea, ask her to destroy him, just to see if she is putting you first.


----------



## G.J.

Suspecting2014 said:


> CC:
> 
> Don't forget to destroy OM, he is a grown man and should face consequences.
> 
> Other idea, ask her to destroy him, just to see if she is putting you first.


Certainly would see where her loyalties are


----------



## Graywolf2

ConfusedInCali said:


> Her quote from a couple of weeks back: "I'm not saying I don't want to work on us, but I'm saying I'm not ready to work on us."


She wants the home life you provide and the OM. She knows that in the long run it’s better to eat your vegetables. You’re the vegetables and the OM is desert.



ConfusedInCali said:


> She also says she was just beginning to appreciate what she had, rather than what she didn't have.


This is the reason for the 180. You’re so stable and reliable that she took you for granted. It’s like kids not realizing all the lackluster things their parents provide them. 

After D-day your instinct was to do anything to reestablish the stable environment. That is your nature. 

In a strange way you being so rock solid increased the likelihood of your wife cheating on you. If she thought about it at all she thought you would never leave her.



ConfusedInCali said:


> That said, it doesn't fulfill what she wants in being excited about me, so I can only imagine that further down the line another affair would happen again.
> 
> I truly believe that she doesn't see a future with him per se, but she wants that excitement and chemistry with another person.
> 
> She said it was a one-timer, but who knows.


I read an article written by a woman who needed what she called “new skin.” She loved her husband and kids but about every six months she got her “new skin” fix. She was very attractive like your wife and went to a hotel bar to get picked up. She said that she even knew what kind of drink to order to increase her chances of being picked up. 

Your wife would love this woman’s life if she could get away with it.


----------



## bff

ConfusedInCali said:


> Separately, I'm getting apologetic texts from her such as the below - I'm not sure what to make of it:
> 
> "i truly am sorry i want you to know that. and more than ever i know i made the biggest mistake of my life. and if there is any shred of hope that i can regain your respect and trust, i will try. even if it doesn't necessary mean another chance. right now i just want to help ease your pain and devastation."


CC,

I think I'm one of the least cynical or pessimistic people on this forum, but this text above doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings and has me worried about your long-term future with this woman.

This is perhaps remorse for hurting you, but it in NO WAY seems to indicate that she still has any passion for you. Sorry to say it that coldly, but that's what I see. And for her to say "even if it doesn't mean another chance" - that's an invitation for you to proceed with D. She gets to move on with the "comfort" that the D was all your idea, even if she secretly wants it too.

I can tell you this - living for years and years in a passionless relationship is an absolute SOUL KILLING experience. "OK" is truly the enemy of "GREAT". And when it comes to who you spend your precious time on this earth with, you should not settle for less than GREAT. Ask me how I know! 

Only you can truly make the decision on the best course forward for yourself, but my advice would be to look past all of the comfort of not having to make big changes in your life and think about whether this woman has been providing or can really provide you FULFILLING companionship for the long haul? You're obviously a really good guy. You absolutely, positively deserve someone who wakes up every day and is thankful to have you in her life. Don't settle for less.

BFF


----------



## Graywolf2

bff said:


> And for her to say "even if it doesn't mean another chance" - that's an invitation for you to proceed with D. She gets to move on with the "comfort" that the D was all your idea, even if she secretly wants it too.


:iagree:

BFF is a genius. 

Your wife had the time of her life with the “new” man. The key word here is “new.” She's being honest with herself and knows she can never give that excitement up. She didn’t like the price she had to pay socially and with guilt. If she’s divorced she can see new men guilt free. 

In a way telling her friends that “it was the biggest mistake of my life” is self-serving. It makes her the victim. Her friends know how valuable a good faithful family man is now a days and think she’s foolish to throw you away. She knows that too but can’t help herself. The OM was just too exciting. If you divorce her she can tell her friends that she didn't throw you away, she had no choice.

BFF is exactly right. She will freely admit what a great guy you are and that she made a mistake. You divorced her and she deserved it because of her terrible actions. She will leave out that she didn’t give you any encouragement all. 

She will tell the kids someday that she would have loved to stay with their dad but he wouldn’t have her after what she had done. Again she's the victim.

The affair was a stupid mistake on her part that you couldn’t recover from. She doesn’t blame you at all but it shifts the responsibility of breaking up the family to both of you instead of just her. Her proof is that you divorced her.

The smart thing to do is move ahead with divorce and let her get away with this. The alternative is to play games. Ask her to go to MC and see her reaction. Turning down MC would make her rewrite of history more difficult.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

You need to divorce her. It doesn't matter whether she sets herself up to be the victim or not. As long as people know what she did, that's all you can do. The rest is up to you as to whether you think you should try or give her up as a sunk cost.

I'd divorce and then start dating her single friends.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

badmemory said:


> Well, in terms of just words, that's a start. But if I was going to think about R with her, I'd want to hear her asking, if not pleading, for another chance.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm hearing.


You are right on that. I see her trying a little here and there, but don't think she especially wants us back together. I'll give a more detailed follow up post.


----------



## badmemory

ConfusedInCali said:


> You are right on that. I see her trying a little here and there, but don't think she especially wants us back together. I'll give a more detailed follow up post.


That doesn't necessarily mean she won't get there confused; but you shouldn't expect it. Some waywards eventually do figure out what it looks like to be remorseful; but that rarely happens if they actually aren't.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

I moved forward with filing the divorce paperwork last Thursday. Since I fully exposed her 8 days ago, I can tell she seems to be remorseful, or at least more than I've ever seen her. She has apologized time and time again, crying quite a lot when we're together over the last week. She has also reached out to her mom and some close friends to admit to them about her affair - not sure if she twisted it to justify her reasons for affair, but I know she did tell them. 

I told her last week that I've filed for divorce for 2 reasons - that I don't know if I can trust her again, and also if she is looking for butterflies and passion, and if I can't give that to her, then I'm moving forward with my life.

The thing is, I truly think she's remorseful but I doubt she is committed to the marriage, as she first said she was when I exposed her and told her I'm filing for divorce. I think it's pretty clear. If she is committed, I think she would have told me to move back into the house, started wearing her wedding ring again, set up our couples counseling, and shared all of her passwords and accounts. She hasn't done any of that. I understand actions speak louder than words.

I've said this many times - I just find it so hard to live without her. And I'm not sure if it's just because I find it hard without HER or if it's difficult not being with somebody. It's been 8.5 years of marriage and us being together for 11 years. It's so hard to adjust to a single life, especially with kids. 

I know what I need to do - 180, detach, protect myself, etc. But man.... this is just much harder than I would have ever imagined. 

I have 2 questions:

How do you balance and offer the opportunity for her to try reconciliation vs. the 180? For example she asked me to come over tonight to decorate our Christmas tree together with the kids. On one angle, it shows she wants us as a family and seems like she's making that attempt. On the flip side, I know I should detach and not make myself available to her. What do I know in such scenarios?

Today, she texted me and said that since I'm still taking steps as part of the divorce (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards) this week, she said she feels like it's already over by me doing that, and that doesn't help the cause in any hope of reconciliation. Not sure what to make of this? Do I ignore her and keep progressing the divorce, and tell her that I need to move forward with my life? (especially knowing she isn't 100% committed to the marriage?)

Remorseful - yes. Wanting us to get back together wholeheartedly - no. Sadly, I know this and understand that I need to stay strong and detach, but I'm just a sucker for valuing history and nostalgia (and a sucker among other things). Gotta change this sh*tty way of thinking.


----------



## tom67

Tell her that it is up to her through her ACTIONS not her words.
Put the ball in her court.


----------



## CH

ConfusedInCali said:


> How do you balance and offer the opportunity for her to try reconciliation vs. the 180? For example she asked me to come over tonight to decorate our Christmas tree together with the kids. On one angle, it shows she wants us as a family and seems like she's making that attempt. On the flip side, I know I should detach and not make myself available to her. What do I know in such scenarios?
> _
> *Do it for the kids, not for her. It would be nice to show your kids that you're the better parent.*_
> 
> she said she feels like it's already over by me doing that, and that doesn't help the cause in any hope of reconciliation
> 
> *If she really wants you back, she should be willing to stick her neck out a little bit and try harder. It sounds like she wants you to crawl back to her on hands and knees to give you guys another shot. I've seen some WS on these forums go through hell to win back their SO. Sometimes it worked and sometimes, well that size 12 boot is just too big sometimes and once they go flying, the BS usually doesn't want them back. But at least they tried and gave 100+%*


----------



## badmemory

ConfusedInCali said:


> How do you balance and offer the opportunity for her to try reconciliation vs. the 180?
> 
> Today, she texted me and said that since I'm still taking steps as part of the divorce (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards) this week, she said she feels like it's already over by me doing that, and that doesn't help the cause in any hope of reconciliation. Not sure what to make of this? Do I ignore her and keep progressing the divorce, and tell her that I need to move forward with my life? (especially knowing she isn't 100% committed to the marriage?)


In regards to Christmas events with your children; that is a a balancing act. Whatever you do, put your children first; but you can still do the 180 on her with them around.

For your other question. Simple. I would tell her just what you indicated in your post. What you would need to see from her *first* for before you consider R and postponing the D.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

badmemory said:


> For your other question. Simple. I would tell her just what you indicated in your post. What you would need to see from her *first* for before you consider R and postponing the D.


And if she agrees, then postpone the other stuff with divorce? (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards, sell the house, etc.)

But frankly, why should I spell this out for her? If she was genuinely committed, wouldn't she know that she should set up counseling, share passwords, ask me to move back? I've mentioned that I value counseling, need to share passwords. She hasn't offered anything of that sort.

I mean, like her deactivating her Facebook account, she did that on her own without me asking knowing that I'd be more secure and happier about that. But that is smaller compared to the other stuff mentioned above.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Wife with Midlife Crisis with Affair? Or is that even Relevant?*



ConfusedInCali said:


> And if she agrees, then postpone the other stuff with divorce? (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards, sell the house, etc.)
> 
> But frankly, why should I spell this out for her? If she was genuinely committed, wouldn't she know that she should set up counseling, share passwords, ask me to move back? I've mentioned that I value counseling, need to share passwords. She hasn't offered anything of that sort.
> 
> I mean, like her deactivating her Facebook account, she did that on her own without me asking knowing that I'd be more secure and happier about that. But that is smaller compared to the other stuff mentioned above.


Just like she knew she shouldn't cheat on you?

You need to give her the guidelines necessary for you for reconciliation and then enforce them rigidly . But don't expect her to figure out what you need to make you feel better about reconciliation. 

She couldn't even figure out on her own that it wasn't a good idea to cheat. How do you expect her to piece together the necessary things for reconciliation for you?


----------



## Tobyboy

"I'm sorry you feel that way" is the perfect response when doing the 180. 

Look closely at her text. The reason she wants to not divorce is in there!$!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

ConfusedInCali said:


> And if she agrees, then postpone the other stuff with divorce? (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards, sell the house, etc.)
> 
> But frankly, why should I spell this out for her? If she was genuinely committed, wouldn't she know that she should set up counseling, share passwords, ask me to move back? I've mentioned that I value counseling, need to share passwords. She hasn't offered anything of that sort.
> 
> I mean, like her deactivating her Facebook account, she did that on her own without me asking knowing that I'd be more secure and happier about that. But that is smaller compared to the other stuff mentioned above.


You don't spell it out for her until you're sure she's committed to reconciliation. Until then, your response should be "You broke this marriage, fixing it is on you. So far I haven't seen you make any attempt to repair the breach so the divorce continues."


----------



## Hardtohandle

CC

Just write down in plain english WTF you need.. Thats it...

And just see if she follows it.. If she huffs and puffs or makes some excuse, then you know your answer that she doesn't want this to work and just doesn't have the proverbial balls to do it herself.. 

Trust me I've been in your shoes.. 19 years together, 14 married.. 

I wanted it to work out in the worst way in the beginning.. 

My wifes complaints.. On the computer too much, mom and brother too close for comfort..

I got off the computer that night and my mom and brother were moving back to our home country of Argentina until the house was sold.. 

My mom told me do whatever it takes to fix this.. 

My ex didn't want it fixed.. She just didn't even have the balls to tell me.. So all she did was made it worse. Then finally she tells me she wants a divorce but doesn't do anything to file.. I had to do everything.. 

Again, I am NOT the one who cheated, but I would have eaten sh!t off the floor to fix it.. Sadly I didn't realize that was her fvcking job to eat sh!t off the floor to fix this.. She should have been the one begging on her hands and knees clutching my waist begging me not to leave.. Asking me how am I going to this without out you, while sobbing uncontrollably. How was I going to live without you being here.. 

And not the other way around..

Don't be fooled by this act.. 

Again trust me I never thought I would feel the way I did.. It was like impending doom.. It was an overwhelming pain I can never, ever express.. This truly brought me to the brink of ending my life.. 

Again I wasn't the cheater.. 

I would have done anything in front of anyone to get my wife back at that time.. Anything she said I would have done.. ANYTHING..

Today I am glad she didn't.. You just don't see the forest because of the tree's sometimes.. 

So tell her everything you need and then take it from there.. She should be all over that stuff like white on rice.. 

Good luck..


----------



## Vulcan2013

You should tell her what it takes for you to consider reconciling. No guarantees that you will be able to. 

So you don't promise what you may not be able to do. Let her know you may (not will) stop the process if you see enough progress. In the meantime, separate finances.


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## sidney2718

tom67 said:


> Tell her that it is up to her through her ACTIONS not her words.
> Put the ball in her court.


I agree. I'd even go a step more. Tell her straight out that you don't see any signs from her actual actions that she's interested in showing you her loyalty to you. Give her an example or two of actual actions you'd like to see from her.

What do you gain from this? Probably nothing except the knowledge that you've given your marriage your best shot.


----------



## sidney2718

ConfusedInCali said:


> And if she agrees, then postpone the other stuff with divorce? (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards, sell the house, etc.)
> 
> But frankly, why should I spell this out for her? If she was genuinely committed, wouldn't she know that she should set up counseling, share passwords, ask me to move back? I've mentioned that I value counseling, need to share passwords. She hasn't offered anything of that sort.
> 
> I mean, like her deactivating her Facebook account, she did that on her own without me asking knowing that I'd be more secure and happier about that. But that is smaller compared to the other stuff mentioned above.


A shell-shocked woman may not be able to figure this out on her own. As I've just posted above, sit her down and give her some examples of what you need. It won't hurt and will enable you to go forward knowing you gave your marriage your best shot.


----------



## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> I moved forward with filing the divorce paperwork last Thursday. Since I fully exposed her 8 days ago, I can tell she seems to be remorseful, or at least more than I've ever seen her. She has apologized time and time again, crying quite a lot when we're together over the last week. She has also reached out to her mom and some close friends to admit to them about her affair - not sure if she twisted it to justify her reasons for affair, but I know she did tell them.
> 
> I told her last week that I've filed for divorce for 2 reasons - that I don't know if I can trust her again, and also if she is looking for butterflies and passion, and if I can't give that to her, then I'm moving forward with my life.
> 
> The thing is, I truly think she's remorseful but I doubt she is committed to the marriage, as she first said she was when I exposed her and told her I'm filing for divorce. I think it's pretty clear. If she is committed, I think she would have told me to move back into the house, started wearing her wedding ring again, set up our couples counseling, and shared all of her passwords and accounts. She hasn't done any of that. I understand actions speak louder than words.
> 
> I've said this many times - I just find it so hard to live without her. And I'm not sure if it's just because I find it hard without HER or if it's difficult not being with somebody. It's been 8.5 years of marriage and us being together for 11 years. It's so hard to adjust to a single life, especially with kids.
> 
> I know what I need to do - 180, detach, protect myself, etc. But man.... this is just much harder than I would have ever imagined.
> 
> I have 2 questions:
> 
> How do you balance and offer the opportunity for her to try reconciliation vs. the 180? For example she asked me to come over tonight to decorate our Christmas tree together with the kids. On one angle, it shows she wants us as a family and seems like she's making that attempt. On the flip side, I know I should detach and not make myself available to her. What do I know in such scenarios?
> 
> Today, she texted me and said that since I'm still taking steps as part of the divorce (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards) this week, she said she feels like it's already over by me doing that, and that doesn't help the cause in any hope of reconciliation. Not sure what to make of this? Do I ignore her and keep progressing the divorce, and tell her that I need to move forward with my life? (especially knowing she isn't 100% committed to the marriage?)
> 
> Remorseful - yes. Wanting us to get back together wholeheartedly - no. Sadly, I know this and understand that I need to stay strong and detach, but I'm just a sucker for valuing history and nostalgia (and a sucker among other things). Gotta change this sh*tty way of thinking.


First off, get back into the house ASAP.

Second, you _can_ answer her w/ regard to the divorce/reconciliation stuff, but you have to do it in a very specific way. She has to know going in that she's going to have to do much, Much, MUCH more than simply throwing you a bone or some scant morsel of affection every now and again to keep her hooks in you. 

And actually, the very first thing that you have to ask yourself is whether or not you're the type of guy that CAN reconcile due to physical infidelity. Some guys can, but most guys can't. Take some time, think about it, and BE HONEST W/ YOURSELF.

Anyway, w/ respect to a response (again, assuming that you're open to reconciliation), something like this might do the trick...

"Why would I do anything BUT continue to move forward w/ the divorce? You've _*said nothing*_ to indicate a desire to reconcile our marriage. More importantly, you've *DONE NOTHING* to demonstrate a willingness to perform all of the hard work and heavy lifting that it would take to get our marriage back on track in the face of your infidelity. NOTHING.

And yeah... maybe you feel guilty, and maybe you even feel a bit remorseful, but why should I be the one to initiate any of the tough discussions or hard work when your unwillingness to honor our marriage vows is the reason that we're here?

If reconciliation is something that you want to work toward, then *you need to show me with both words AND deeds*_, and not simply words alone._ I'm willing to work things out, but I'm done being a doormat, and this will NOT be rugswept. I deserve better than that, our children deserve better than that, and you deserve better than that. It's either divorce or a 111.11% full-blown, balls-to-the-wall, no-holds-barred, all-go-no-quit reconciliation.

I'm willing to put divorce proceedings *ON HOLD*, but *only* once I'm satisfied that things are moving in a proper direction. And by the way, this will take weeks -- if not months -- to accomplish... and that's just the start. I've been doing a lot of reading lately and, in many cases, it can years for couples to fully reconcile after an affair, so I hope you're in it for the long haul." 

Honestly, though... reading her comments gives me the feeling that she's already accepted that your marriage is done. It may be that she's just looking to get out of the marriage but doesn't want to be the one to take the blame for it ending. Or maybe she's unwilling and/or thinks she's incapable of putting in the hard work required to make things work. Or maybe she just doesn't think that you're the type of guy that will be able to reconcile. Who knows? In any case, her response to what I've typed above should be pretty telling either way.

Also, has she been served w/ the papers yet? If not, all of the discussion that I outlined above would probably be best initiated AFTER she's been served. She needs that bucket of ice cold water thrown in her face.


----------



## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> And if she agrees, then postpone the other stuff with divorce? (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards, sell the house, etc.)
> 
> But frankly, why should I spell this out for her? If she was genuinely committed, wouldn't she know that she should set up counseling, share passwords, ask me to move back? I've mentioned that I value counseling, need to share passwords. She hasn't offered anything of that sort.
> 
> I mean, like her deactivating her Facebook account, she did that on her own without me asking knowing that I'd be more secure and happier about that. But that is smaller compared to the other stuff mentioned above.


Were you given full access to her Facebook account (including the password) before she deactivated it? If not, I wouldn't feel so good about her taking this step.


----------



## ConanHub

Listen to uncle Buck!


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> Listen to uncle Buck!


Exactly. Well... sort of.

Look, here's the bottom line -- when you find yourself in a dilemma, and facing a potentially life-altering decision, just ask yourself...

WWGPD?

:smthumbup:


----------



## badmemory

ConfusedInCali said:


> *And if she agrees, then postpone the other stuff with divorce?* (splitting finances, cutting her credit cards, sell the house, etc.)
> 
> But frankly, why should I spell this out for her? *If she was genuinely committed, wouldn't she know that she should set up counseling, share passwords, ask me to move back?* I've mentioned that I value counseling, need to share passwords. She hasn't offered anything of that sort.
> 
> I mean, like her deactivating her Facebook account, she did that on her own without me asking knowing that I'd be more secure and happier about that. But that is smaller compared to the other stuff mentioned above.


No. Not if she agrees. You will judge her by her* actions*. You keep going right on with the D. If at some point she convinces you that she's remorseful and committed to R, then you might reconsider. If she asks you what that means, tell her.

Should she do it anyway? That would be ideal, yes. But I don't see anything wrong with spelling out your expectations in case she needs educating.

The idea confused, is that you have decided to divorce. That's where your headed. You expect to divorce her. She needs to know that if there is a possibility for R, the ball is in her court. If that discourages her, too bad.


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## happyman64

CIC

No matter whether you and your wayward wife divorce or reconcile you need good communication skills.

Or your relationship will just head back to the crapper where it is now.

And yes. Even if you divorce you will have a relationship with her because of the kids.

The 180 is for you to get strong. To be independent. To help you think clearly and no longer miss the presence of your wife. It takes time.

But you still need to communicate with your wife.

"She tells you that she feels the marriage is ending because you are separating finances and cutting her cards"

Stop her right there when she says something like that.

Walk her to a mirror in the house. Face her towards it and make sure she is looking at herself.

Then calmly tell her something like this.

"The marriage is ending because you have lied to me repeatedly. 
The marriage is ending because you have broken your vows and promises to me.
The marriage is ending because you fooled me into moving out of our family home with no intention to fix the marriage or put the focus on yourself to figure out why you so easily slept multiple times with a 25 year old.
&
The marriage is ending because you still have not lifted one finger and made one positive action to show me that you still want to be married to me. Not one.

All the actions that you see me doing are because you have failed to act or be honest.

All I can tell by your inaction is that you value your selfish motives more than you cherish the thought of our marriage or family to still be together.

Then ask her one question.

"What did you expect to happen after all of your bad decisions?"

Now she can go all quiet and that in itself is an answer.

or

She can act stupid and ask you what she should do?

Those are all answers.

Your wife is messed up Cali. You stepped up as the leader of your marriage and family. You acted. 

You might have to explain that to her. Tell her if she wants a chance to fix this then she better start fighting for you, the family and the marriage.

Because up until now she has been running in the opposite direction and you are taking the appropriate actions to give her the freedom she wants.

Permanently.

HM


----------



## ConfusedInCali

I'm mentally conflicted. 

So my wife and I chatted yesterday. Recall I filed for divorce last Thursday, but she hasn't been formally served yet as we're waiting for the paperwork. Since last week, she has said she's committed to earning back the trust and working on the marriage. Again, I understand actions speak louder than words.

Her side of story from yesterday morning: she feels that since I'm still progressing with the divorce, and was continuing this week to separate finances (as we agreed to certain terms), me pushing to sell the house, etc. how can we honestly work on our marriage if all my actions is pushing towards a divorce? In other words, she is saying how can she have the right frame of mind to even want to earn the trust and work on the marriage when I'm pushing the divorce along? Her mind would just assume that the marriage is over since my actions indicate that. (This was all before my previous post and getting all of your feedback from yesterday.)

So last night we chatted again, and per some of your advice yesterday I told her that if she is fully committed she needs to show it by actions and here are some things that we need to do. Also, I said it's not guaranteed it'll work out and if I could trust her again, but I'm willing to try to see how it'll work. In the meantime, I will postpone the divorce provided that she meets these asks.

1. Go to counseling. I know she was always against counseling prior to full on exposure and confrontation of the OM. She mentioned to me last week that part of why she didn't want counseling before was because there were still some lies that she was afraid would come out or she would have to continue to conceal if we went to counseling. However, now that everything is on the table, she is more receptive to going to focus on us, rather than concealing the whole story. She reiterated this last night and we therefore, agreed to start counseling soon.

2. I told her I will be moving back into the house. She said it makes sense to if we are really going to work on reconciliation and understand if this works for both of us. The latter part of that statement is telling: So in some ways, despite her infidelity I think she is still a bit hesitant for us to get back together, just as much as I am to get back together to trust her. She said her affair was completely wrong, but there were issues prior to the affair in our marriage that led her astray. I agree with that. I am hoping counseling would help with that. 

(To be honest, part of why I haven't moved back into the house in the last 1-2 months was for myself. It was so hard and painful to be around her and doing the 180. Yeah, she probably didn't want me there either prior to full on exposure and confrontation of OM, but neither did I want to be there.)

3. I asked her to share passwords on phone and computer - this is where she started going on the offense to say that yes I could see her phone and laptop together, but not behind her back. She said she felt violated that I also broke her trust in going into her phone. And that some of her friends now feel violated because I know some of THEIR personal thoughts. I think we all know and agree that if she didn't *** up and cheat and violated my trust, I wouldn't need to go into her phone. I get that. This part didn't sit well with me. But I don't think I could live like that either if I was the WS. For example, if I was the one that got caught cheating, I would be begging and pleading to my wife and doing everything to try to earn back her trust. But I would not be comfortable in sharing my emails, phone, etc. with her...even if I had absolutely nothing to hide. How can one live like that??



Sooooo, given all this..... I'm mentally conflicted. I'm only getting a lukewarm feeling that she wants to put our marriage as top priority. And for myself, because of that reaction I'm starting to feel that this marriage might not work in the long haul. That said, I'm hopeful that counseling could help us resolve some of our issues - both for her and my trust issues given the affair. For myself, I think I need to know that I've tried everything to save this marriage, including going to counseling, and giving her a 2nd chance before closing the door on our marriage. This is for myself. 

I do understand that divorce may be inevitable, given her lukewarm desire to reconcile. It seems she may have already checked out of the marriage even before the affair. I'm wondering though.... does counseling help in changing some of this? And if I change myself with more Alpha traits (from MMSLP) - I already have too much Beta traits, would that ever reverse a woman that was checked out? (I know following MMSLP should be for myself regardless.) I also understand that by doing this, I could be merely prolonging the inevitable and may go through more prolonged pain and delayed healing. Hence I'm so confused and conflicted but feel that I need to give her another chance to save our family, more than anything for myself.


----------



## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> I asked her to share passwords on phone and computer - this is where she started going on the offense to say that yes I could see her phone and laptop together, but not behind her back. She said she felt violated that I also broke her trust in going into her phone. And that some of her friends now feel violated because I know some of THEIR personal thoughts. I think we all know and agree that if she didn't *** up and cheat and violated my trust, I wouldn't need to go into her phone. I get that. This part didn't sit well with me. But I don't think I could live like that either if I was the WS. For example, if I was the one that got caught cheating, I would be begging and pleading to my wife and doing everything to try to earn back her trust. But I would not be comfortable in sharing my emails, phone, etc. with her...even if I had absolutely nothing to hide. How can one live like that??


No.

No.

No. No. No. No. NO!!!

It's time for ABSOLUTE, COMPLETE, AND TOTAL transparency. Period. If she's not willing to commit to that, then she's not really committed to reconciliation, and odds are that she's still doing nothing more than biding her time so that she can exit your marriage at the moment of her choosing.

This was nothing more than a sh*t test, and you failed it. Big time.


----------



## naiveonedave

with respect to 3. There are no secrets in marriage, you should have had unfettered access to all that stuff before the A, after the A she should be doing cartwheels getting you the passwords.


----------



## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> Sooooo, given all this..... I'm mentally conflicted. I'm only getting a lukewarm feeling that she wants to put our marriage as top priority. And for myself, because of that reaction I'm starting to feel that this marriage might not work in the long haul.


I hate to say it, but I tend to agree w/ this assessment. If she were truly committed to the reconciliation of your marriage, she would be jumping at every available opportunity to earn back your trust, and it doesn't bode well that she's balking at the concept of transparency.



ConfusedInCali said:


> That said, I'm hopeful that counseling could help us resolve some of our issues - both for her and my trust issues given the affair. For myself, I think I need to know that I've tried everything to save this marriage, including going to counseling, and giving her a 2nd chance before closing the door on our marriage. This is for myself.


Why would you commit to counseling when you can't even be assured of the fact that she's no longer actively (or Hell, even passively) pursuing relationships w/ other men?!? This is where transparency comes in.



ConfusedInCali said:


> I do understand that divorce may be inevitable, given her lukewarm desire to reconcile. It seems she may have already checked out of the marriage even before the affair. I'm wondering though.... does counseling help in changing some of this? And if I change myself with more Alpha traits (from MMSLP) - I already have too much Beta traits, would that ever reverse a woman that was checked out? (I know following MMSLP should be for myself regardless.) I also understand that by doing this, I could be merely prolonging the inevitable and may go through more prolonged pain and delayed healing. Hence I'm so confused and conflicted but feel that I need to give her another chance to save our family, more than anything for myself.


Resources like MMSLP and NMMNG can help, yes. And even if your _current_ wife doesn't respond, the next one will. 

And fear not... the Alpha traits ARE there, it's just that they've been smothered by a big ol' wet blanket of Beta for far, far too long.


----------



## GusPolinski

naiveonedave said:


> with respect to 3. There are no secrets in marriage, you should have had unfettered access to all that stuff before the A, after the A she should be doing cartwheels getting you the passwords.


Yep.


----------



## naiveonedave

GusPolinski said:


> Resources like MMSLP and NMMNG can help, yes. And even if your _current_ wife doesn't respond, the next one will.
> 
> And fear not... the Alpha traits ARE there, it's just that they've been smothered by a big ol' wet blanket of Beta for far, far too long.


^^^This^^^^ reading your thread, I think MMSLP is more relevent, but both should be helpful, in finding the next Mrs Cali (notice I removed the confused, because you won't be, I hope)


----------



## Nucking Futs

She doesn't want it bad enough. She should be crying so hard she's blowing snot bubbles at the thought you might not want to R, instead she's balking at your conditions. 

You're wasting your time. Next her.


----------



## badmemory

Here's a thought. You tell her:

1 - Your complete transparency is not negotiable. No agreement; no possibility for R.

2 - No contact with OM. Accept for the no contact letter you agree to send to him. No agreement; no possibility for R.

3 - If you agree to the first two and marriage counseling, I will postpone the divorce for now and move back in. We'll see how MC goes; and I'll give you the opportunity to convince me that you are remorseful; and willing to do the heavy lifting to save this marriage. If after this period, I decide to attempt R - then the focus of the MC can be on our marital issues; but not until that's been decided.

If she doesn't take that offer; she doesn't care enough about you or the marriage. Continue on with the D.


----------



## GusPolinski

badmemory said:


> Here's a thought. You tell her:
> 
> 1 - Your complete transparency is not negotiable. No agreement; no R.
> 
> 2 - No contact with OM. Accept for the no contact letter you agree to send to him. No agreement; no R.
> 
> 3 - If you agree to the first two and marriage counseling, I will postpone the divorce for now and move back in. We'll see how MC goes; and I'll give you the opportunity to convince me that you are remorseful; and willing to do the heavy lifting to save this marriage.
> 
> If she doesn't take that offer; continue on with the D.


Agreed, but I'd move back in either way.


----------



## tom67

If she doesn't take that offer; continue on with the D.
Again tell her there are no secrets in a marriage if she balks tell her "I'm sorry you feel this way" and walk away no emotion.
Any exposure yet regarding baseball boy?
Blow up his world so this predator doesn't do this again!


----------



## badmemory

GusPolinski said:


> Agreed, but I'd move back in either way.


Yeah I agree Gus. But I wouldn't tell her that yet.


----------



## GusPolinski

badmemory said:


> Yeah I agree Gus. But I wouldn't tell her that yet.


Yeah. No need for her to know until he shows up w/ his stuff.

And new locks.


----------



## bfree

ConfusedInCali said:


> 3. I asked her to share passwords on phone and computer - this is where she started going on the offense to say that yes I could see her phone and laptop together, but not behind her back. She said she felt violated that I also broke her trust in going into her phone. And that some of her friends now feel violated because I know some of THEIR personal thoughts. I think we all know and agree that if she didn't *** up and cheat and violated my trust, I wouldn't need to go into her phone. I get that. This part didn't sit well with me. But I don't think I could live like that either if I was the WS. For example, if I was the one that got caught cheating, I would be begging and pleading to my wife and doing everything to try to earn back her trust. But I would not be comfortable in sharing my emails, phone, etc. with her...even if I had absolutely nothing to hide. How can one live like that??


You do realize that most marital experts advise couples to be totally transparent with each other. The phrase privacy is reserved for the bathroom is often echoed. In fact I strongly suggest you look up Marriage Builders and the Policy of Radical Honesty.

Who can live like that?

Me....and my wife.

We have been completely transparent and open with each other since we got marriage well over two decades ago. It makes total sense if you think about it. Name one decision that you may make that doesn't affect your wife in some way. Name one action that might not eventually come back to her. I can't think of one...can you? Each and every decision, action, even thought affects both of you. So why should one person be shut out?

Those that have nothing to hide - hide nothing.


----------



## BWBill

_. . . she is saying how can she have the right frame of mind to even want to earn the trust and work on the marriage when I'm pushing the divorce along? Her mind would just assume that the marriage is over since my actions indicate that._

This is where you made your first mistake; she made her participation conditional and you caved. You wanted to "help" her. The right answer would have been that you are going forward with the divorce because you haven't seen any action on her part. If she wants to reconcile she has until the divorce is final.

_In the meantime, I will postpone the divorce provided that she meets these asks._

Your second mistake. She has what she wants, a pause in the divorce. Now she free to a) negotiate and renegotiate every term you put forward, b) tell people that she is working on the marriage (but that you are being mean) and 3) look for better options. 


She is not remorseful, she is negotiating. You are being a nice guy and trying to work something out.

I recommend that you change your mind and file. Then see what she does.

Don't, under any circumstances get into negotiating. If she wants to reconcile you tell her that you will not agree to anything. Your participation is based strictly on whether you think her actions are worthy. If/when she asks you what she should do tell her to do whatever she wants. Put the ball in her court and let her either take the appropriate actions or not.

And don't "save" her. If she wants to reconcile let her put some time and emotions at risk.


----------



## bfree

How Can Trust Be Restored After An Affair? by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D. - Marriage Builders®


_How Can Trust Be Restored
After An Affair?

by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.




If your spouse has had an affair, and is now willing to reconcile, you're likely to ask yourself, how can I ever trust my spouse again? And without trust, how can our marriage ever survive?
Without a doubt, an affair is the ultimate betrayal. An unfaithful spouse is fully aware of the suffering that the affair will inflict on their spouse, but feels justified in causing it to happen. It reflects a total disregard for their spouse's feelings, someone whom he or she had promised to cherish and protect for life.

And then there's the lies. Looking right at you and denying it all, getting angry that you would even think such a thing, and expressing shock that you would have invaded his or her privacy.

How can you every trust someone again who did all of that to you?

But the truth is, you may have more reason to trust your spouse after the affair than before it happened. How could I possibly come to that conclusion?

It's all about understanding how trust is created and destroyed. Trust is the belief that your spouse won't do anything to hurt you and will be honest with you. It assumes a level of care that forms a protective envelope around you.

I've written two rules that encapsulate the concept of trust. The first is the Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If your spouse's behavior reflects his consideration of your interests and feelings, you have good reason to trust him to avoid doing anything to hurt you.

The second rule is the Policy of Radical Honesty: Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know-your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future. This rule adds an important element to the protection that the Policy of Joint Agreement provides. It guarantees transparency so that nothing that your spouse does is ever hidden from you. By following this policy, your spouse gives you good reason to trust that what he tells you is the truth.

Before the affair, it's likely that your spouse was not following these two rules. You may have noticed incidents of independent behavior where your spouse did what he or she pleased knowing full well that you would not be happy with it. You may have also witnessed your spouse hiding the truth, or even giving you false information occasionally. Whatever the excuse would have been for violations of these two rules, you would have had little reason to trust your spouse at that time.

But now your spouse has proven to be incredibly thoughtless. He or she did nothing to protect your feelings, but instead, ran roughshod over them. And your spouse was amazingly dishonest. It was only when your spouse was faced with undeniable evidence did he or she grudgingly and defensively finally admit to one lie after another, rarely accompanied by an apology. Considering these failures can you ever trust your spouse again?

One of the essential steps I recommend in my program of recovery after an affair is for spouses to learn to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty so that they can create trust in each other. Those two rules define the meaning of trust, and by learning to follow them, they would have good reason to trust each other.

But I have counseled many spouses who refuse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement after an affair. In other words, they admit that they are willing to let their spouse suffer so they can get what they want. When spouses of alcoholics complain that their drinking causes them to be unhappy, they drink anyway. Workaholics do the same thing. Their spouses' feelings and interests have little effect on their decisions. They do what they want, regardless of the negative effect on their spouses.

So if an unfaithful spouse is unwilling to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, I explain to their spouse that they should not be trusted. Why? It's because we should only trust those who are willing and able to protect our feelings and interests. Someone unwilling to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement is unwilling to do that. Even if a spouse has never had an affair, may not be an alcoholic, a workaholic, or any other kind of "aholic," if that person is unwilling to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement it means that it's only a matter of time before an incredibly painful act of thoughtlessness will occur. That person should not be trusted.

In addition to refusing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, many of the unfaithful spouses I've counseled have also refused to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They don't want their spouse to know their passwords, their schedule, their cell phone records, and other personal information. And yet, they tell me and their spouse that they've changed and now we can trust them. I tell them that they should not be trusted.

Many unfaithful spouses have demanded that the betrayed spouse trust them. They argue that without that trust their marriage cannot thrive. They don't use that argument to build their marriage, but rather to avoid doing anything to regain trust. They don't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, asking how their spouse would feel about their decisions but instead insist that the spouse trust their judgment. They don't tell their spouse what they are doing in secret, but they want the spouse to believe that it is not anything harmful to the marriage. Demanding trust is simply a tactic to get away with further thoughtlessness and dishonesty.

Part of this problem is that spouses are often led to believe that trust is something you are required to do when you are married. You have to trust your spouse. But trust is not a requirement for marriage; it's a reaction to experience. It grows as each spouse shows himself or herself to be trustworthy.

Trust should begin with a commitment to be thoughtful and honest. Without that commitment, it's foolish to trust your spouse. Then, that commitment must be followed up with thoughtful and honest behavior. By following the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty consistently, a spouse would eventually prove his or her trustworthiness.

If someone who has a long history of dishonesty and thoughtlessness agrees to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement, that person is on his or her way to becoming trustworthy, in spite of past history. As he or she learns how to be honest and thoughtful, and proves it again and again whenever conflicts arise, it's only a matter of time before trust is restored.

How can you ever be certain that your spouse will not have another affair? How can you ever trust him or her again? If you build your relationship on the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty, you'll find that your trust will be based on the solid foundation of experience. You'll learn to be honest with each other about every detail of your lives, and you'll be firmly committed to taking each other's feelings into account with every decision you make. By doing those things, you make another affair impossible.

Trust can be achieved in marriage, even after an affair. When honesty and thoughtfulness has been proven over a period of time (usually about two years), trust is created that does not have to be demanded. It comes naturally and effortlessly. And when it does, you have more reason to trust your spouse than you did before the affair took place._


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

The first thing you should do is move back to your home.

Then tell her that what you've asked her to due for you to be able to attmpt an R is not only reasonable, it's a bare minimum.

Then, if she continues to push back about you having unrestricted access to her phone/PC, etc., continue with the D process.


She seems to still be on the fence on whether she wants to try to an R and stay married to you.

I'm wondering if she just wants to buy some time, so she can leave/have you leave at a later date...

If she is interested in staying married, I'm guessing that love for you is down there on her list of reasons to want to do so.

Somewhere after;

1) Get my ducks in a row.
and
2) Be able to leave later on and not under the cloud of infidelity.


----------



## Forest

Oh yeck!

So she's got some bogus mid-life crisis, needs space, is confused, etc, etc.

All that is pure malarkey for "I want to screw around, act like a tramp, have no responsibility, and have you around to keep the incidentals taken care of."

Sorry, my friend, really. You, and the marriage still sound like an incidental.

If she was pure and true, she'd move Heaven and earth to right her wrongs, and fix her marriage. To me, she sound like all that ranks right there with a can of fix-a-flat. Just something to get you down the road. Temporary.


----------



## weightlifter

in Cali. do not let that marriage pass 10 years! perma alimony at 10 years.


----------



## happyman64

I:iagree::iagree:

I have to agree that the 10 year mark could become an issue.

From what I see Cali you really want to R. And maybe your wife is slow slow to come around.

Or

Maybe she is wondering if he grass is greener on the other side.

Until you move home and continue to show consequences you will never know.

The open phone and password policy is a must. Tell your wife your phone will be available to her as well.

Tell her that until she becomes open and honest you have the right to look at anytime. Stress to her you do not want to be her babysitter.

But by deciding to cheat and lie that is what in fact she chose to make you.

Move home. Create the proper boundaries that you both agree to.

And see if she makes an honest effort.

You will know soon if she us worth it or not.

HM


----------



## GusPolinski

weightlifter said:


> in cali. Do not let that marriage pass 10 years! Perma alimony at 10 years.


Good catch, WL.

CiC, DIVORCE HER.

NOW!!!


----------



## warlock07

ConfusedInCali said:


> I'm mentally conflicted.
> 
> So my wife and I chatted yesterday. Recall I filed for divorce last Thursday, but she hasn't been formally served yet as we're waiting for the paperwork. Since last week, she has said she's committed to earning back the trust and working on the marriage. Again, I understand actions speak louder than words.
> 
> Her side of story from yesterday morning: she feels that since I'm still progressing with the divorce, and was continuing this week to separate finances (as we agreed to certain terms), me pushing to sell the house, etc. how can we honestly work on our marriage if all my actions is pushing towards a divorce? In other words, she is saying how can she have the right frame of mind to even want to earn the trust and work on the marriage when I'm pushing the divorce along? Her mind would just assume that the marriage is over since my actions indicate that. (This was all before my previous post and getting all of your feedback from yesterday.)
> 
> So last night we chatted again, and per some of your advice yesterday I told her that if she is fully committed she needs to show it by actions and here are some things that we need to do. Also, I said it's not guaranteed it'll work out and if I could trust her again, but I'm willing to try to see how it'll work. In the meantime, I will postpone the divorce provided that she meets these asks.
> 
> 1. Go to counseling. I know she was always against counseling prior to full on exposure and confrontation of the OM. She mentioned to me last week that part of why she didn't want counseling before was because there were still some lies that she was afraid would come out or she would have to continue to conceal if we went to counseling. However, now that everything is on the table, she is more receptive to going to focus on us, rather than concealing the whole story. She reiterated this last night and we therefore, agreed to start counseling soon.
> 
> 2. I told her I will be moving back into the house. She said it makes sense to if we are really going to work on reconciliation and understand if this works for both of us. The latter part of that statement is telling: So in some ways, despite her infidelity I think she is still a bit hesitant for us to get back together, just as much as I am to get back together to trust her. She said her affair was completely wrong, but there were issues prior to the affair in our marriage that led her astray. I agree with that. I am hoping counseling would help with that.
> 
> (To be honest, part of why I haven't moved back into the house in the last 1-2 months was for myself. It was so hard and painful to be around her and doing the 180. Yeah, she probably didn't want me there either prior to full on exposure and confrontation of OM, but neither did I want to be there.)
> 
> 3. I asked her to share passwords on phone and computer - this is where she started going on the offense to say that yes I could see her phone and laptop together, but not behind her back. She said she felt violated that I also broke her trust in going into her phone. And that some of her friends now feel violated because I know some of THEIR personal thoughts. I think we all know and agree that if she didn't *** up and cheat and violated my trust, I wouldn't need to go into her phone. I get that. This part didn't sit well with me. But I don't think I could live like that either if I was the WS. For example, if I was the one that got caught cheating, I would be begging and pleading to my wife and doing everything to try to earn back her trust. But I would not be comfortable in sharing my emails, phone, etc. with her...even if I had absolutely nothing to hide. How can one live like that??
> 
> 
> 
> Sooooo, given all this..... I'm mentally conflicted. I'm only getting a lukewarm feeling that she wants to put our marriage as top priority. And for myself, because of that reaction I'm starting to feel that this marriage might not work in the long haul. That said, I'm hopeful that counseling could help us resolve some of our issues - both for her and my trust issues given the affair. For myself, I think I need to know that I've tried everything to save this marriage, including going to counseling, and giving her a 2nd chance before closing the door on our marriage. This is for myself.
> 
> I do understand that divorce may be inevitable, given her lukewarm desire to reconcile. It seems she may have already checked out of the marriage even before the affair. I'm wondering though.... does counseling help in changing some of this? And if I change myself with more Alpha traits (from MMSLP) - I already have too much Beta traits, would that ever reverse a woman that was checked out? (I know following MMSLP should be for myself regardless.) I also understand that by doing this, I could be merely prolonging the inevitable and may go through more prolonged pain and delayed healing. Hence I'm so confused and conflicted but feel that I need to give her another chance to save our family, more than anything for myself.



The same theme keeps repeating if you notice. 

It was a mistake to make her think that she had a chance for R now. Asking her for R was a big big mistake. These "push the cheater into R" never works. You will help her in the R process when she starts taking the first few big steps on her own. Asking her passwords is such a bad move, that I think if your R fails, I would point out this one single event.

This is the exact reason she cheated on you and acted very cruelly these few months. Think about it exactly what changed when you exposed. She knew what she did. She actions were based on what she did. Now, telling her what she needs to do, jumping into R and back home, asking her for her passwords, all this weak ass stuff will destroy any chances you have.


----------



## GusPolinski

warlock07 said:


> The same theme keeps repeating if you notice.
> 
> It was a mistake to make her think that she had a chance for R now. Asking her for R was a big big mistake. These "push the cheater into R" never works. You will help her in the R process when she starts taking the first few big steps on her own. Asking her passwords is such a bad move, that I think if your R fails, I would point out this one single event.
> 
> This is the exact reason she cheated on you and acted very cruelly these few months. Think about it exactly what changed when you exposed. She knew what she did. She actions were based on what she did. Now, telling her what she needs to do, jumping into R and back home, asking her for her passwords, all this weak ass stuff will destroy any chances you have.


Hitting the bottle a bit early, aren't you?


----------



## bff

Married 10 years in California - permanent alimony. (piling on what previous posters have said...)

BE VERY VERY VERY AWARE OF THIS! I was not, and I got incredibly lucky that I found out my XW was cheater and a liar at the 9 year and 9 month mark. I literally almost become physically ill thinking about how I would have dealt with having to pay her support every month for the REST OF MY LIFE. 5 years (typically half the term of marriage for sub 10 year marriage) is painful enough.

I'm not close enough to all the details of your situation, but I saw you said you're married 8.5 years. Please don't let this off your radar.

BFF


----------



## jim123

She is not all in so you are wasting your time.

She should be willing to do anything and is not.

She is attacking you.

Go forward with the D and do the 180.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Stop trying to making her want to R, she doesnt want to even try.

Seems like she is use to wait for you to fix things , but this time she broke it she fix it.

She is affaid of being by her self on your terms and not hers, she wants to stay mariaged if the grass is not greener. 

She doesnt wanna be with you, she just need the safe net and is ashame D for her actions.

Cc WAKE UP, she was planing to leave you!!!

Stop talking to her, negotiating, about what you need, she knows!!!

Stop changing your mind every day, from D to try to get her into R, she knows you very well and is trying to use you.

Stop saving her!!


----------



## warlock07

GusPolinski said:


> Hitting the bottle a bit early, aren't you?


What part do you think is wrong ?

I am seeing an exact repeat of dadof2 situation here. Remember that ? He did exactly what people are suggesting Cali to do. He made her take the first few steps and ultimately lost respect because of that. Unless a WS offers her passwords and email on her own, there is absolutely no point in asking for them. And it ultimately comes off looking like a control issue.

His wife has guilt for her affair only when she was caught and exposed. Her remorse will go away once the guilt goes away. 

The way she is reacting, you must have seen that a few times on TAM. WS that are a little repentant when caught but ultimately don't care in the long run. It is just their version of "I tried my best"


----------



## See_Listen_Love

ConfusedInCali said:


> I'm mentally conflicted.
> 
> So my wife and I chatted yesterday. Recall I filed for divorce last Thursday, but she hasn't been formally served yet as we're waiting for the paperwork. Since last week, she has said she's committed to earning back the trust and working on the marriage. Again, I understand actions speak louder than words.
> 
> Her side of story from yesterday morning: she feels that since I'm still progressing with the divorce, and was continuing this week to separate finances (as we agreed to certain terms), me pushing to sell the house, etc. how can we honestly work on our marriage if all my actions is pushing towards a divorce? In other words, she is saying how can she have the right frame of mind to even want to earn the trust and work on the marriage when I'm pushing the divorce along? Her mind would just assume that the marriage is over since my actions indicate that. (This was all before my previous post and getting all of your feedback from yesterday.)
> 
> So last night we chatted again, and per some of your advice yesterday I told her that if she is fully committed she needs to show it by actions and here are some things that we need to do. Also, I said it's not guaranteed it'll work out and if I could trust her again, but I'm willing to try to see how it'll work. In the meantime, I will postpone the divorce provided that she meets these asks.
> 
> 1. Go to counseling. I know she was always against counseling prior to full on exposure and confrontation of the OM. She mentioned to me last week that part of why she didn't want counseling before was because there were still some lies that she was afraid would come out or she would have to continue to conceal if we went to counseling. However, now that everything is on the table, she is more receptive to going to focus on us, rather than concealing the whole story. She reiterated this last night and we therefore, agreed to start counseling soon.
> 
> 2. I told her I will be moving back into the house. She said it makes sense to if we are really going to work on reconciliation and understand if this works for both of us. The latter part of that statement is telling: So in some ways, despite her infidelity I think she is still a bit hesitant for us to get back together, just as much as I am to get back together to trust her. She said her affair was completely wrong, but there were issues prior to the affair in our marriage that led her astray. I agree with that. I am hoping counseling would help with that.
> 
> (To be honest, part of why I haven't moved back into the house in the last 1-2 months was for myself. It was so hard and painful to be around her and doing the 180. Yeah, she probably didn't want me there either prior to full on exposure and confrontation of OM, but neither did I want to be there.)
> 
> 3. I asked her to share passwords on phone and computer - this is where she started going on the offense to say that yes I could see her phone and laptop together, but not behind her back. She said she felt violated that I also broke her trust in going into her phone. And that some of her friends now feel violated because I know some of THEIR personal thoughts. I think we all know and agree that if she didn't *** up and cheat and violated my trust, I wouldn't need to go into her phone. I get that. This part didn't sit well with me. But I don't think I could live like that either if I was the WS. For example, if I was the one that got caught cheating, I would be begging and pleading to my wife and doing everything to try to earn back her trust. But I would not be comfortable in sharing my emails, phone, etc. with her...even if I had absolutely nothing to hide. How can one live like that??
> 
> 
> 
> Sooooo, given all this..... I'm mentally conflicted. I'm only getting a lukewarm feeling that she wants to put our marriage as top priority. And for myself, because of that reaction I'm starting to feel that this marriage might not work in the long haul. That said, I'm hopeful that counseling could help us resolve some of our issues - both for her and my trust issues given the affair. For myself, I think I need to know that I've tried everything to save this marriage, including going to counseling, and giving her a 2nd chance before closing the door on our marriage. This is for myself.
> 
> I do understand that divorce may be inevitable, given her lukewarm desire to reconcile. It seems she may have already checked out of the marriage even before the affair. I'm wondering though.... does counseling help in changing some of this? And if I change myself with more Alpha traits (from MMSLP) - I already have too much Beta traits, would that ever reverse a woman that was checked out? (I know following MMSLP should be for myself regardless.) I also understand that by doing this, I could be merely prolonging the inevitable and may go through more prolonged pain and delayed healing. Hence I'm so confused and conflicted but feel that I need to give her another chance to save our family, more than anything for myself.


Confused,

Untill now you did things good, and other things wrong. 50/50, so not too bad.

But I tell you bluntly that if you progress as you do now, you will spoil your chances on a good reconciliation.

JUST FOLLOW the advise given her by experienced posters.

DO NOT think so much yourself! READ about all those other similar cases here. LISTEN. UNDERSTAND. 

ACT as you get told.

Really that is your best chance, accept the wisdom of TAM.

Good luck.


----------



## Graywolf2

weightlifter said:


> in Cali. do not let that marriage pass 10 years! perma alimony at 10 years.





ConfusedInCali said:


> Her side of story from yesterday morning: she feels that since I'm still progressing with the divorce how can we honestly work on our marriage if all my actions is pushing towards a divorce? In other words, she is saying how can she have the right frame of mind to even want to earn the trust and work on the marriage when I'm pushing the divorce along?


Tell her that your old marriage is over. You will never be able to blindly trust her like before no matter what she does. Before the idea of her cheating was inconceivable. Now it’s very conceivable. You’re both different people now than you once were. A new relationship will have to be built on this new reality. 

You can shack up and if things get great you can get remarried someday.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

happyman64 said:


> I:iagree::iagree:
> 
> I have to agree that the 10 year mark could become an issue.
> 
> From what I see Cali you really want to R. And maybe your wife is slow slow to come around.
> 
> Or
> 
> Maybe she is wondering if he grass is greener on the other side.
> 
> Until you move home and continue to show consequences you will never know.
> 
> The open phone and password policy is a must. Tell your wife your phone will be available to her as well.
> 
> Tell her that until she becomes open and honest you have the right to look at anytime. Stress to her you do not want to be her babysitter.
> 
> But by deciding to cheat and lie that is what in fact she chose to make you.
> 
> Move home. Create the proper boundaries that you both agree to.
> 
> And see if she makes an honest effort.
> 
> You will know soon if she us worth it or not.
> 
> HM


Thanks on that 10 year mark reminder. Yes, I'm aware of it. As far as I know, since the divorce paperwork has been filed, and me listing the date of separation as something recent, I have until 3 years to finalize the paperwork and the 10 year mark will not be an issue since it's already been filed. 

I will be moving home tomorrow or Friday as my schedule does not permit me to until then.

Do I want reconciliation? I'm confused - I think I'm so fixated on keeping our family together that I'm not sure if it's the family I want that keeps me trying, or her/marriage itself. And also, I keep going back and forth. Take 2 days ago for instance, I really wanted to try and understand that I've done everything I can to save the marriage - I still feel this way at most moments. But today, all I feel is anger and disgust towards her that I don't even want to move home and be around her. 

Everybody here has encouraged me to move home. What is the main reason for this? If this is for financial reasons, I've already laid out all the terms with her and the house will be split accordingly (without fear of abandonment). Or is it to be there to watch her actions towards me, and to understand if she is still cheating? (The latter I highly highly doubt, although I question if somebody else comes along in the future if she would entertain.)

Regarding the open phone and password policy, I understand. But I personally am not a believer in it myself. I have nothing to hide, but I would never want my wife (even before all this affair stuff) to go through my private conversations with my friends, etc. Just a bit intrusive to me and I personally can't live with it either. But I hear what everybody is saying - trust was breached, how can you know my wife isn't cheating again? Completely agree with this argument as well.


----------



## badmemory

ConfusedInCali said:


> I personally am not a believer in it myself. I have nothing to hide, *but I would never want my wife (even before all this affair stuff) to go through my private conversations with my friends, etc.* Just a bit intrusive to me and I personally can't live with it either. But I hear what everybody is saying - trust was breached, how can you know my wife isn't cheating again? Completely agree with this argument as well.


You would if you had cheated on her, were remorseful about it, and would do anything to gain her trust back.

As for moving back in. Obviously a must if you've decided to attempt R; and yes one other reason is so you can monitor her.

If you've decided on divorce, your attorney okays it, and you can afford it; no problem to separate. It will help you to move on with your life.

I remember when I made the decision to divorce my first wife (no kids) 35 years ago. My attorney told me to get out of the home asap because the judge wouldn't grant a D if I was still in it.


----------



## Suspecting2014

ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks on that 10 year mark reminder. Yes, I'm aware of it. As far as I know, since the divorce paperwork has been filed, and me listing the date of separation as something recent, I have until 3 years to finalize the paperwork and the 10 year mark will not be an issue since it's already been filed.
> 
> I will be moving home tomorrow or Friday as my schedule does not permit me to until then.
> 
> Do I want reconciliation? I'm confused - I think I'm so fixated on keeping our family together that I'm not sure if it's the family I want that keeps me trying, or her/marriage itself. And also, I keep going back and forth. Take 2 days ago for instance, I really wanted to try and understand that I've done everything I can to save the marriage - I still feel this way at most moments. But today, all I feel is anger and disgust towards her that I don't even want to move home and be around her.
> 
> Everybody here has encouraged me to move home. What is the main reason for this? If this is for financial reasons, I've already laid out all the terms with her and the house will be split accordingly (without fear of abandonment). Or is it to be there to watch her actions towards me, and to understand if she is still cheating? (The latter I highly highly doubt, although I question if somebody else comes along in the future if she would entertain.)
> 
> Regarding the open phone and password policy, I understand. But I personally am not a believer in it myself. I have nothing to hide, but I would never want my wife (even before all this affair stuff) to go through my private conversations with my friends, etc. Just a bit intrusive to me and I personally can't live with it either. But I hear what everybody is saying - trust was breached, how can you know my wife isn't cheating again? Completely agree with this argument as well.


Stop justifying her excuses!! you know better.

Look, the faster way to lose your family is having the same behavior over and over again.

This is not mine

I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Check this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/46866-men-dont-lose-him.html

Include read "married man sex life prime", a must in your situation


----------



## ConfusedInCali

BTW, I have not reported the basketball coach...yet. I've been on the fence with this due to the fact that I feel the mothers of this basketball camp are all adults and they should make their own decisions whether they have an affair or not. It's not like they are children being taken advantage of.

That said, I do hear what folks are saying about the fact that it's a children environment, but my argument is adults are adults. 

There is some part of me that does want to make the OM's life a bit more difficult and miserable. He is not married and don't know if he even has a girlfriend. If I report to the camp director, I'm wondering what the basketball camp director would do???? They would say that what their coach does in their own time is their business - it's NOT a legal crime that he committed.

The OM also has another coaching job at a high school - should I contact them as well even though the incidents happened at his other job (basketball camp) and not the high school?

If I choose to move forward with this - what is the best way to report this with what line of communication? Threat to expose this via social media and other parents if he's not fired?


----------



## tom67

ConfusedInCali said:


> BTW, I have not reported the basketball coach...yet. I've been on the fence with this due to the fact that I feel the mothers of this basketball camp are all adults and they should make their own decisions whether they have an affair or not. It's not like they are children being taken advantage of.
> 
> That said, I do hear what folks are saying about the fact that it's a children environment, but my argument is adults are adults.
> 
> There is some part of me that does want to make the OM's life a bit more difficult and miserable. He is not married and don't know if he even has a girlfriend. If I report to the camp director, I'm wondering what the basketball camp director would do???? They would say that what their coach does in their own time is their business - it's a legal crime that he committed.
> 
> The OM also has another coaching job at a high school - should I contact them as well even though the incidents happened at his other job (basketball camp) and not the high school?
> 
> If I choose to move forward with this - what is the best way to report this with what line of communication? Threat to expose this via social media and other parents if he's not fired?


Dude...
Do if you make enough waves do you really think they would keep him given all the bad publicity.
Stop being the nice guy find out where he works and send his boss and others his cheaterville link when you post it.


----------



## Chaparral

Put your story on cheaterville.com, then send them the links to it. Include the Google link.
Think about how unmanly not doing anything to the posom is to your wife and anyone else that finds out about it. People, including your wife see that as wimpy, unmanly, cowardly and worse incompetent. No matter what they say, women expect men to protect and fight for them. Not doing so is the death knell to a relationship. Its pure biology.

To your detriment, it looks like you haven't read mmslp yet.

Think of it this way, what would James Bond, John Wayne, or James Dean do? Nothing?


----------



## GusPolinski

Chaparral said:


> Put your story on cheaterville.com, then send them the links to it. Include the Google link.
> Think about how unmanly not doing anything to the posom is to your wife and anyone else that finds out about it. People, including your wife see that as wimpy, unmanly, cowardly and worse incompetent. No matter what they say, women expect men to protect and fight for them. Not doing so is the death knell to a relationship. Its pure biology.
> 
> To your detriment, it looks like you haven't read mmslp yet.
> 
> Think of it this way, what would James Bond, John Wayne, or James Dean do? Nothing?


007 would dump her. Actually, he wouldn't have married her to begin with, and (let's be honest) it's far more likely that he'd be the guy that the wife was banging on the side. But if he had married her, he'd dump her. (And no, I'm not comparing the OM to James Bond.)

The Duke would slap her, THEN dump her. Then he'd probably slap her again. Obviously, I wouldn't recommend this.

James Dean would dump her, after which he'd drive off like a emo d**che.

And let's be real... none of them would use CV at all, but that's only because they'd each go old school and beat the sh*t out of OM, after which they'd have another lady (or two... or more!) lined up within about 30 seconds.


----------



## thenub

Read hurtinginohio's thread. She has the right idea. Grab the bull by the horns and tear them off.


----------



## Suspecting2014

ConfusedInCali said:


> BTW, I have not reported the basketball coach...yet. I've been on the fence with this due to the fact that I feel the mothers of this basketball camp are all adults and they should make their own decisions whether they have an affair or not. It's not like they are children being taken advantage of.
> 
> That said, I do hear what folks are saying about the fact that it's a children environment, but my argument is adults are adults.
> 
> There is some part of me that does want to make the OM's life a bit more difficult and miserable. He is not married and don't know if he even has a girlfriend. If I report to the camp director, I'm wondering what the basketball camp director would do???? They would say that what their coach does in their own time is their business - it's NOT a legal crime that he committed.
> 
> The OM also has another coaching job at a high school - should I contact them as well even though the incidents happened at his other job (basketball camp) and not the high school?
> 
> If I choose to move forward with this - what is the best way to report this with what line of communication? Threat to expose this via social media and other parents if he's not fired?


You should do 2 steps:

The CV, and

Make a formal conplain, leting his boss know that you will tell the other parents.

You can also tell other parents, but it could afect your wife and son.

As I posted before, ask her to do it, or at least go with you. Let see how hard she wanna R.

Do you know who initiated, was him? Was your W?


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> Put your story on cheaterville.com, then send them the links to it. Include the Google link.
> Think about how unmanly not doing anything to the posom is to your wife and anyone else that finds out about it. People, including your wife see that as wimpy, unmanly, cowardly and worse incompetent. No matter what they say, women expect men to protect and fight for them. Not doing so is the death knell to a relationship. Its pure biology.
> 
> To your detriment, it looks like you haven't read mmslp yet.
> 
> Think of it this way, what would James Bond, John Wayne, or James Dean do? Nothing?


Here is where your mindset should be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApdECER-tkw
:lol:


----------



## G.J.

tom67 said:


> Here is where your mindset should be...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApdECER-tkw
> :lol:


Oh boy if only

So when you get sugar in your coffee follow your gut


----------



## shellgames

When you expose you will find out where the WW heart is too


----------



## tom67

G.J. said:


> Oh boy if only
> 
> So when you get sugar in your coffee follow your gut


A lot of sugar.


----------



## tom67

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ_7br_3y54


----------



## Q tip

I am utterly convinced she is absolutely remorseful that she got caught and nothing more.

Cheaters are liars. Simple as that. She wanted life on her terms. To have and hold any man she wants while you play H. 

Sicko.

Rat out the POSOM. You might be surprised who else is involved with Mr. Wrong. Expose him to the world. -- and to Cheaterville.


----------



## Hicks

ConfusedInCali said:


> Regarding the open phone and password policy, I understand. But I personally am not a believer in it myself. I have nothing to hide, but I would never want my wife (even before all this affair stuff) to go through my private conversations with my friends, etc. Just a bit intrusive to me and I personally can't live with it either. But I hear what everybody is saying - trust was breached, how can you know my wife isn't cheating again? Completely agree with this argument as well.


If you don't want to go through your wife's phone, you don't have to. But you do have to put yourself in the driver's seat on this ride.

This has nothing to do with going through her phone ,feeling violoated and your personal beliefs. *This is just a practical requirement. It is a test you give her to ensure that her private thoughts match the words that she is saying to you. What you have learned is that they do not.*

Therefore you should not proceed with reconciliation.


----------



## Q tip

There is confusion over privacy and secrecy in marriage...

Privacy is closing the bathroom door. There is no secrecy in marriage. Period. 

All accounts, passwords, phones, everything is open and transparent. Nothing in the world wrong with that. Why would you be doing anything behind your spouse that you wouldn't do in front of them.

This is marriage. You should give up petty privacy at the alter. No valid, good reason to hide anything. This forum shows many reasons it's a great policy. You belong to each other. Why wall each other off. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Q tip

Have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer yet? Read it several times and execute. You'll improve in ways you never realized.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

I reported the coach to the owners of the basketball camp. The owners said they will take action and will dismiss the coach. 

Should I tell my wife? (regardless of the goal of R or D)? I think if it's D, no reason to hold back. Good idea to tell her if R is a possibility? (I genuinely believe the affair has been over for 3 months now.)


----------



## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> I reported the coach to the owners of the basketball camp. The owners said they will take action and will dismiss the coach.
> 
> Should I tell my wife? (regardless of the goal of R or D)? I think if it's D, no reason to hold back. Good idea to tell her if R is a possibility? (I genuinely believe the affair has been over for 3 months now.)


Eh... I wouldn't say anything for now. She may very well come to you asking about it, though. If so, that'll tell you just about everything that you need to know about her motives.


----------



## tulsy

GusPolinski said:


> Eh... I wouldn't say anything for now. She may very well come to you asking about it, though. If so, that'll tell you just about everything that you need to know about her motives.


I agree. Why bother telling her anything? Go/stay dark.


----------



## G.J.

BUT if she asks tell her

I would say some thing along the lines of "That piece of scum wont poison any more marriages there, what type of scum breaks up marriages"


----------



## tom67

G.J. said:


> BUT if she asks tell her
> 
> I would say some thing along the lines of "That piece of scum wont poison any more marriages there, what type of scum breaks up marriages"


:iagree:
Only if she brings it up casually tell her like it doesn't mean anything.
Cool and calm.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Dont tell her!! This was for u, not her!!

If it is not about kids or D you dont have nothing to tell her...180 is your only chance


----------



## Chaparral

The biggest reason not to tell her is to see if he contacts her and you see how she reacts to you about this. By now she should understand what a dog he is and have no qualms about anything you do to him.


----------



## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> I reported the coach to the owners of the basketball camp. The owners said they will take action and will dismiss the coach.
> 
> Should I tell my wife? (regardless of the goal of R or D)? I think if it's D, no reason to hold back. Good idea to tell her if R is a possibility? (I genuinely believe the affair has been over for 3 months now.)





GusPolinski said:


> Eh... I wouldn't say anything for now. She may very well come to you asking about it, though. If so, that'll tell you just about everything that you need to know about her motives.


I've given this a bit more thought, and I've come up w/ this -- whether or not you tell her is sort of situational. Let me explain...

* If you're set on divorce, there's no reason not to tell her.

* If you're working toward reconciliation, maybe tell her after a couple of weeks or a month. Get in 3-4 MC sessions at least, and THEN tell her. Gauge her reaction. If her priority is to repair her marriage then her loyalty should be to you, and it shouldn't matter to her at all. If, however, she gets all pissy and explodes on you... well, that would tend to indicate that she's not fully committed to reconciliation.

If you decide to tell her, by the way, make sure that you have a VAR, keylogger, GPS, e-mail/text/etc monitoring in place _first_. Unless, of course, you're moving toward divorce; if so, then there's no need to bother w/ any of that sh*t.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

They dismissed and fired the coach yesterday. I have not said a word to my wife about this - following the advice on this forum.

Over the last week, my wife and I have spent a lot more time together - after she said she is committed to R / marriage and I want to play it by ear for 1 month at a time to let her actions do the talking. I am still skeptical and have my guard up but will re-evaluate on a monthly basis. That said, previously she was never GENUINELY willing to go to counseling, but this last week she seemed to be slightly hopeful (perhaps as a last ditch effort) to go to our first counseling session on Thursday. Also, I could tell that she's trying a little bit harder like initiating holding my hand (for the first time in months), and she also initiated sex as well (also for the first time in months).

Despite all of this, I still sense some awkwardness between the 2 of us. For me, I still go through moments with her where I am angry just looking at her and thinking about the pain she caused me. For her, I could tell she's hesitant about R. I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary. Personally, I also think she's trying to figure out whether there is anything left for being "IN love" with me.

For folks that have been a betrayed spouse and worked on R, are these feelings normal.... for both of us? Also for wayward spouses that have once fell out of love (i love you but not in love with you), can the "IN love" feelings resurface ever again? (assuming both parties make changes - guy applies MMSLP concepts, etc.) 

To be honest, I'm not implying R is definitely something I want. I'm just letting this play out, 1 month at a time by judging her actions. I'm lost myself and am going through roller coaster of understanding what I want. Nonetheless, I do feel a lot more detached from her compared to 2 weeks ago and prior.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Just keep working on yourself and aim to be the type of person you want to be. Keep an emotional distance as she cannot be trusted. She needs to change herself, and she is not exactly a prize either. There are women out there that do not cheat, and would have tried a lot harder to get their marriage on track. In fact, there are some on here seeking help for just that. Judge the whole situation by a pattern like your doing. Change takes a long time and also keep doing some things independent of her. Show that you can be happy without her if needed. Be outgoing and social if you can. Be a rock and show that you will be fine no matter what side the coin lands on. Your worth and happiness is not dictated by being in a relationship with her.


----------



## anchorwatch

ConfusedInCali said:


> Despite all of this, I still sense some awkwardness between the 2 of us. For me, I still go through moments with her where I am angry just looking at her and thinking about the pain she caused me. For her, I could tell she's hesitant about R. I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary. Personally, I also think she's trying to figure out whether there is anything left for being "IN love" with me.
> 
> For folks that have been a betrayed spouse and worked on R, are these feelings normal.... for both of us? Also for wayward spouses that have once fell out of love (i love you but not in love with you), can the "IN love" feelings resurface ever again?


Ask these members...
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


----------



## Chaparral

Did she approach you at any time about the issues she now says she had?

Did you think you were already doing the right things? Did you think you were a good husband and father?

You also have to realize a lot of people fall for current thought on how relationships should be but aren't.


----------



## helolover

Appears she is still waiting for you to do the work and the changes. You're the one being evaluated. You're clearly responsible for her cheating as you neglected her for work.

She isn't sorry.
You're plan B.
You're being lured with sex.
She doesn't value you.
She's grossly disrespected you.
You've been continually gaslighted by her.
You're wasting your precious time on this self imposed month-to-month deal.

Forget the MC for now. YOU need IC. You're settling. Why? 

Why is all of this ok?

Remove yourself from your situation for a minute. Imagine a friend came to you as he's experiencing your story. He needs advice. What would you tell him.?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

ConfusedInCali said:


> I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - *she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary. Personally, I also think she's trying to figure out whether there is anything left for being "IN love" with me.*


A call bvllsh!t on this.

You spend too much time and energy working and she has an affair... You'd better not start snoring, or she might smother you with a pillow...

She's worried about your changes only being temporary...

What about her changes. She could also go back and...

Man, I don't know how you've managed to hang in there this long. You're a much stronger man than I my friend.


----------



## happyman64

> I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary. Personally, I also think she's trying to figure out whether there is anything left for being "IN love" with me.


The answer is yes these feelings you both have are quite normal.

Now let me offer you a suggestion.

Turn her answers around on her.

Say something like "SO inattentiveness gives you a reason to cheat, to lie?" You need to make her think.

"Are these changes temporary?" No. These changes are for me. I will be happy again with or without you.

"Is there anything left for her to be "IN" love with you?" Your response should be like this. 

"Don't you think I ask myself the same question. ARe you going to cheat again? Are you going to lie again? Are you going to stop respecting me and our marriage again?

I have the same questions as you. But I am willing to put in an honest effort to fix our marriage and keep our family together. Are you"

Try that Cali. Get your wife to start thinking of other things. She is still feeding her selfishness.

Perfectly normal but you need to make her think.

Good Luck in Counseling.

HM


----------



## ConanHub

helolover said:


> Appears she is still waiting for you to do the work and the changes.  You're the one being evaluated. You're clearly responsible for her cheating as you neglected her for work.
> 
> She isn't sorry.
> You're plan B.
> You're being lured with sex.
> She doesn't value you.
> She's grossly disrespected you.
> You've been continually gaslighted by her.
> You're wasting your precious time on this self imposed month-to-month deal.
> 
> Forget the MC for now. YOU need IC. You're settling. Why?
> 
> Why is all of this ok?
> 
> Remove yourself from your situation for a minute. Imagine a friend came to you as he's experiencing your story. He needs advice. What would you tell him.?


Truth.


----------



## carmen ohio

ConfusedInCali said:


> . . . Over the last week, my wife and I have spent a lot more time together - after *she said she is committed to R / marriage and I want to play it by ear for 1 month at a time to let her actions do the talking.* I am still skeptical and have my guard up but will re-evaluate on a monthly basis . . .
> 
> To be honest, *I'm not implying R is definitely something I want. I'm just letting this play out, 1 month at a time* by judging her actions. I'm lost myself and am going through roller coaster of understanding what I want. Nonetheless, I do feel a lot more detached from her compared to 2 weeks ago and prior.


CiC,

Others have warned you about the 10 year permanent alimony problem.

I'm curious. If you reconcile with your WW, will you drop your divorce request and run the risk of her cheating again when you are on the hook for long-term alimony?

Or will you insist on going through with the divorce in order to reset the alimony clock?


----------



## jim123

You are making a mistake, She is not committed and you are rewarding her and putting her in control. You will regret this if you continue.

Ask her to leave and file. Do it now. Do not wait.


----------



## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> They dismissed and fired the coach yesterday. I have not said a word to my wife about this - following the advice on this forum.
> 
> Over the last week, my wife and I have spent a lot more time together - after she said she is committed to R / marriage and I want to play it by ear for 1 month at a time to let her actions do the talking. I am still skeptical and have my guard up but will re-evaluate on a monthly basis. That said, previously she was never GENUINELY willing to go to counseling, but this last week she seemed to be slightly hopeful (perhaps as a last ditch effort) to go to our first counseling session on Thursday. Also, I could tell that she's trying a little bit harder like initiating holding my hand (for the first time in months), and she also initiated sex as well (also for the first time in months).
> 
> Despite all of this, I still sense some awkwardness between the 2 of us. For me, I still go through moments with her where I am angry just looking at her and thinking about the pain she caused me. For her, I could tell she's hesitant about R. I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary. Personally, I also think she's trying to figure out whether there is anything left for being "IN love" with me.
> 
> For folks that have been a betrayed spouse and worked on R, are these feelings normal.... for both of us? Also for wayward spouses that have once fell out of love (i love you but not in love with you), can the "IN love" feelings resurface ever again? (assuming both parties make changes - guy applies MMSLP concepts, etc.)
> 
> To be honest, I'm not implying R is definitely something I want. I'm just letting this play out, 1 month at a time by judging her actions. I'm lost myself and am going through roller coaster of understanding what I want. Nonetheless, I do feel a lot more detached from her compared to 2 weeks ago and prior.


It's OK to let your wife know that you want to reconcile, but you have to do it in such a way that lets her know that there will be no rugsweeping, and that she's not off the hook for ANYTHING.

Actually, take a look at a couple of replies on this same topic that I appended to a couple of other threads a while back...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...bout-remorse-reconciliation.html#post10074033

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...w-om-has-been-discovered-87.html#post10078842


----------



## GusPolinski

carmen ohio said:


> CiC,
> 
> Others have warned you about the 10 year permanent alimony problem.
> 
> I'm curious. If you reconcile with your WW, will you drop your divorce request and run the risk of her cheating again when you are on the hook for long-term alimony?
> 
> Or will you insist on going through with the divorce in order to reset the alimony clock?


Definitely something to consider. IIRC, CiC said something a while back about filing for separation and/or divorce essentially stopping (or at least halting) the clock...?

Anyway, I'd definitely file, especially since it can be rescinded at any time. Honestly, though, given the sh*tty alimony laws in California, I'd probably opt for divorce either way. After all, it's not like they couldn't reconcile afterward.


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> Definitely something to consider. IIRC, CiC said something a while back about filing for separation and/or divorce essentially stopping (or at least halting) the clock...?
> 
> Anyway, I'd definitely file, especially since it can be rescinded at any time. Honestly, though, given the sh*tty alimony laws in California, I'd probably opt for divorce either way. After all, it's not like they couldn't reconcile afterward.


:iagree:
You are a guy and already behind the 8 ball.


----------



## Suspecting2014

R is not a must, is a gift you give everyday.

I feel you are doing all the hard work and this is wrong!

Cheting is a choise not a consecuence, she did it for her not because you wasnt paying atention.

Keep detaching


----------



## Chaparral

Iwant to point out she didn't go out and find someone her own age, a mature rational man. She went out and found a much younger man. Someone she knew was just in it for the sex. She didn't do this because of anything you did, she did it for cheap thrills. She's morally bankrupt.

Ask yourself, what did this young guy have to offer a woman with her responsibilities and life? A quick roll and that's all.


----------



## azteca1986

ConfusedInCali said:


> I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well.


I'm sure this sounds very reasonable in her mind. Tell you've thought this over and would like to reverse roles. Let her work her arse off for the family and in return you'll resent her _and_ fvck a twenty something.



> She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary.


More twisted thinking on her part. You should be the one concerned with whether her changes are temporary. All it takes for her to fvck around on you is a big project at work.


----------



## badmemory

Confused, I honestly don't intend to put a damper on your attempt at R. But you're not off to a good start if your wife feels that your marital issues before she cheated, are in the same ball park with the betrayal of her wedding vows. She crossed a line that changes everything.

As I see it, whatever those issues were, she should put aside for the immediate future. Even her discussing them right now, portrays that at some level; she blames you for her cheating. 

She should be doing everything she can to win your trust back. That should be her focus; being the best wife she can be. Those marital issues can be re-visited at whatever point she proves that she is committed to you completely.

I'm sorry, but at this point, I don't see that.


----------



## G.J.

badmemory said:


> Confused, I honestly don't intend to put a damper on your attempt at R. But you're not off to a good start if your wife feels that your marital issues before she cheated, are in the same ball park with the betrayal of her wedding vows. She crossed a line that changes everything.
> 
> As I see it, whatever those issues were, she should put aside for the immediate future. Even her discussing them right now, portrays that at some level; she blames you for her cheating.
> 
> She should be doing everything she can to win your trust back. That should be her focus; being the best wife she can be. Those marital issues can be re-visited at whatever point she proves that she is committed to you completely.
> 
> I'm sorry, but at this point, I don't see that.


:iagree:


----------



## ConfusedInCali

Chaparral said:


> Did she approach you at any time about the issues she now says she had?
> 
> Did you think you were already doing the right things? Did you think you were a good husband and father?
> 
> You also have to realize a lot of people fall for current thought on how relationships should be but aren't.


She's brought up these issues over the last year or two. However, I've always felt that my work/manager would be hard on me if I took time off from work, especially with them knowing my wife is a stay at home mom. She's also complained that I get home after the family dinner, rather than taking a stand with work and leave earlier to make it home for dinner. But shoot, I was doing it to support the family so we can do nice things. We were clear on this mutual partnership when she quit her job 2 years ago. Somehow the expectations changed over time.

I do admit when I do get home, I wasn't very attentive to her or the kids, because I was mentally drained from work throughout the day. I wasn't mean to them, but when they would speak to me I'm spacing out due to a long day at work. However, on weekends I would always take the kids out to play, be there for them, attend all their sports games, etc. I was never out there consistently on boys' nights, partying, going out, doing my own things away from family, etc. - none of that. So yes, in my mind I was a good husband and father but perhaps could have addressed the attention to the family a bit more.

Nonetheless, I think we all agree that it doesn't give her any right to go out and cheat, especially when she never sat us down to chat about the severity of her feelings, or offered MC for us to resolve and talk about.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

It is just some justification. Most likely, the bond between the two of you was strained, and then om came along and paid her attention. Reason why she most likely did not bring it up was because it was not at the breaking point yet. So when the om came along and made her feel great and probably like a woman, she went after the affair because it fulfilled the reward center of her brain. To keep this reward going, she made some justification with enough of the truth. Your marriage was probably not a priority for the both of you then. It is true that she should went to you when she felt the relationship was breaking, and it does not free her from her actions. If she wanted you to work less, perhaps she could have found a part time job. Relationships do take a lot of work to maintain, which no one teaches you going into a committed relationship. The reason why the hardworking spouse does not usually realize that the bond is breaking is because they are not focused on it. Their energy is focus elsewhere. Your work preoccupied your mind where you did not notice the state of your marriage. It is a conscious effort to make the time. If you were honest with yourself, you were probably not close to your wife for that last two years, and that is something you could own. I a m sure you loved her, but were you intimate and truly know her well enough and her emotions. So she owns the affair, not telling you about her emotions, and not being honest. You own neglecting your relationship, and you not being aware of the state of your marriage because your energy was placed elsewhere.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

badmemory said:


> Confused, I honestly don't intend to put a damper on your attempt at R. But you're not off to a good start if your wife feels that your marital issues before she cheated, are in the same ball park with the betrayal of her wedding vows. She crossed a line that changes everything.
> 
> As I see it, whatever those issues were, she should put aside for the immediate future. Even her discussing them right now, portrays that at some level; she blames you for her cheating.
> 
> She should be doing everything she can to win your trust back. That should be her focus; being the best wife she can be. Those marital issues can be re-visited at whatever point she proves that she is committed to you completely.
> 
> I'm sorry, but at this point, I don't see that.


I agree. All the marital issues before the affair are definitely not in same ballpark as in an affair. I don't think she was implying it was at the same level. However, what she was implying was that we have deeper issues even before the affair, that needs to be addressed. And she questions whether or not those issues could be resolved - communication issues, her excitement about our marriage, etc. The fact is, I agree - we are often not on the same page when communicating, joking, stance on certain topics. Which begs the question: maybe it's best we part ways and I'm more clear AND WILLING on this possibility now than weeks ago.

There are a few reasons why I'm still on this path, rather than complete breakoff. And btw, divorce paperwork is already in progress.

1. I feel that I need to know for MYSELF that I've given every last shot in saving our family. I still love her, but I'm also disgusted with her as well. As I said, if I don't feel any progress in 1 month's time, I am much more prepared and willing to walk away than I was before.

2. As much as I've portrayed above that she is "evaluating" our situation....believe me, I'm evaluating it as well objectively. Perhaps I'm looking to understand if she is indeed fully committed by me watching her actions. I don't know, I just need to know.

3. We've never been to MC before and I want us to attend together tomorrow for guidance on whether we would be able to work things out. It goes back to #1 - being able to live with myself that I gave everything to save the marriage. If she walks or I walk weeks or months from now, I at least know I have done everything I can. 

I guess I'm questioning myself whether or not the timing of all this is optimal. In other words, perhaps we should forget MC for now, detach, 180, let D run its course, and if she genuinely is committed to the marriage at a later time....and if R is still what I want at that point in time, THEN go to MC, then start talking about R.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

ConfusedInCali said:


> I agree. All the marital issues before the affair are definitely not in same ballpark as in an affair. I don't think she was implying it was at the same level. However, what she was implying was that we have deeper issues even before the affair, that needs to be addressed. And she questions whether or not those issues could be resolved - communication issues, her excitement about our marriage, etc. The fact is, I agree - we are often not on the same page when communicating, joking, stance on certain topics. Which begs the question: maybe it's best we part ways and I'm more clear AND WILLING on this possibility now than weeks ago.
> 
> There are a few reasons why I'm still on this path, rather than complete breakoff. And btw, divorce paperwork is already in progress.
> 
> 1. I feel that I need to know for MYSELF that I've given every last shot in saving our family. I still love her, but I'm also disgusted with her as well. As I said, if I don't feel any progress in 1 month's time, I am much more prepared and willing to walk away than I was before.
> 
> 2. As much as I've portrayed above that she is "evaluating" our situation....believe me, I'm evaluating it as well objectively. Perhaps I'm looking to understand if she is indeed fully committed by me watching her actions. I don't know, I just need to know.
> 
> 3. We've never been to MC before and I want us to attend together tomorrow for guidance on whether we would be able to work things out. It goes back to #1 - being able to live with myself that I gave everything to save the marriage. If she walks or I walk weeks or months from now, I at least know I have done everything I can.
> 
> I guess I'm questioning myself whether or not the timing of all this is optimal. In other words, perhaps we should forget MC for now, detach, 180, let D run its course, and if she genuinely is committed to the marriage at a later time....and if R is still what I want at that point in time, THEN go to MC, then start talking about R.



Since your in Cali, would it be better to divorce. Then see if you can just date. Cali has some of the worst alimony laws.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

Mr.Fisty said:


> It is just some justification. Most likely, the bond between the two of you was strained, and then om came along and paid her attention. Reason why she most likely did not bring it up was because it was not at the breaking point yet. So when the om came along and made her feel great and probably like a woman, she went after the affair because it fulfilled the reward center of her brain. To keep this reward going, she made some justification with enough of the truth. Your marriage was probably not a priority for the both of you then. It is true that she should went to you when she felt the relationship was breaking, and it does not free her from her actions. If she wanted you to work less, perhaps she could have found a part time job. Relationships do take a lot of work to maintain, which no one teaches you going into a committed relationship. The reason why the hardworking spouse does not usually realize that the bond is breaking is because they are not focused on it. Their energy is focus elsewhere. Your work preoccupied your mind where you did not notice the state of your marriage. It is a conscious effort to make the time. If you were honest with yourself, you were probably not close to your wife for that last two years, and that is something you could own. I a m sure you loved her, but were you intimate and truly know her well enough and her emotions. So she owns the affair, not telling you about her emotions, and not being honest. You own neglecting your relationship, and you not being aware of the state of your marriage because your energy was placed elsewhere.


I have nothing to say to that as I think that is a fair assessment and hit it right on point. I indeed had no idea that the state of our marriage was to that degree. Sure, she had complained for over a year that we don't talk much anymore, except about the kids.etc. I guess I didn't think it would have ever led to an affair. Shame on me.

But I had wished she talked to me about the severity of her feelings regarding our marriage. And with that, the affair still isn't justified.


----------



## Suspecting2014

ConfusedInCali said:


> She's brought up these issues over the last year or two. However, I've always felt that my work/manager would be hard on me if I took time off from work, especially with them knowing my wife is a stay at home mom. She's also complained that I get home after the family dinner, rather than taking a stand with work and leave earlier to make it home for dinner. But shoot, I was doing it to support the family so we can do nice things. We were clear on this mutual partnership when she quit her job 2 years ago. Somehow the expectations changed over time.
> 
> I do admit when I do get home, I wasn't very attentive to her or the kids, because I was mentally drained from work throughout the day. I wasn't mean to them, but when they would speak to me I'm spacing out due to a long day at work. However, on weekends I would always take the kids out to play, be there for them, attend all their sports games, etc. I was never out there consistently on boys' nights, partying, going out, doing my own things away from family, etc. - none of that. So yes, in my mind I was a good husband and father but perhaps could have addressed the attention to the family a bit more.
> 
> Nonetheless, I think we all agree that* it doesn't give her any right to go out and cheat, especially when she never sat us down to chat about the severity of her feelings, or offered MC for us to resolve and talk about.*


Dont ever forget this!


----------



## carmen ohio

Mr.Fisty said:


> Since your in Cali, would it be better not to divorce. Then see if you can just date. Cali has some of the oworst alimony laws.


Mr. Fisty,

I don't understand your advice.

It has been stated that, in California, alimony becomes permanent after ten years of marriage. (Actually, the law is a little more complicated than that -- see, e.g., California Spousal Support FAQs | DivorceNet.com -- but this is a good starting point for considering the consequences of divorcing now rather than later.) CiC is in his eighth year of marriage, I believe. So, it would seem to behoove him divorce her now rather than run the risk of a failed attempt at reconciliation followed by paying alimony for many years into the future.

Did I misunderstand you?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

carmen ohio said:


> Mr. Fisty,
> 
> I don't understand your advice.
> 
> It has been stated that, in California, alimony becomes permanent after ten years of marriage. (Actually, the law is a little more complicated than that -- see, e.g., California Spousal Support FAQs | DivorceNet.com -- but this is a good starting point for considering the consequences of divorcing now rather than later.) CiC is in his eighth year of marriage, I believe. So, it would seem to behoove him divorce her now rather than run the risk of a failed attempt at reconciliation followed by paying alimony for many years into the future.
> 
> Did I misunderstand you?


 I pretty much want him to go through with the divorce, just in case things don't work out. She sounds like she is not too remorseful. And i think it is best if he looked after his financial future. After the divorce, if they want to get back together, then that is their decision.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mr.Fisty said:


> *Since your in Cali, would it be better not to divorce.* Then see if you can just date. Cali has some of the oworst alimony laws.





Mr.Fisty said:


> *I pretty much want him to go through with the divorce,* just in case things don't work out. She sounds like she is not too remorseful. And i think it is best if he looked after his financial future. After the divorce, if they want to get back together, then that is their decision.


So the first bolded red statement above should have read, "Since your in Cali, would it be better to divorce"?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

carmen ohio said:


> So the first bolded red statement above should have read, "Since your in Cali, would it be better to divorce"?



Thanks, I went back and edited it. I should have proof read it a little better.


----------



## G.J.

Mr.Fisty said:


> Thanks, I went back and edited it. I should have proof read it a little better.


:redcard:


----------



## sidney2718

ConfusedInCali said:


> I have nothing to say to that as I think that is a fair assessment and hit it right on point. I indeed had no idea that the state of our marriage was to that degree. Sure, I guess I didn't think it would have ever led to an affair. Shame on me.
> 
> But I had wished she talked to me about the severity of her feelings regarding our marriage. And with that, the affair still isn't justified.


For future reference: men and women often speak different languages. To her mind it is possible that "she had complained for over a year that we don't talk much anymore, except about the kids.etc." was a serious complaint. 

Many women consider repetition as emphasis. Sure she could have been more explicit, but at the time might not wanted to get your temper up.

It doesn't matter much now, but keep it in mind in the future when speaking to women.


----------



## warlock07

ConfusedInCali said:


> They dismissed and fired the coach yesterday. I have not said a word to my wife about this - following the advice on this forum.
> 
> Over the last week, my wife and I have spent a lot more time together - after she said she is committed to R / marriage and I want to play it by ear for 1 month at a time to let her actions do the talking. I am still skeptical and have my guard up but will re-evaluate on a monthly basis. That said, previously she was never GENUINELY willing to go to counseling, but this last week she seemed to be slightly hopeful (perhaps as a last ditch effort) to go to our first counseling session on Thursday. Also, I could tell that she's trying a little bit harder like initiating holding my hand (for the first time in months), and she also initiated sex as well (also for the first time in months).
> 
> Despite all of this, I still sense some awkwardness between the 2 of us. For me, I still go through moments with her where I am angry just looking at her and thinking about the pain she caused me. For her, I could tell she's hesitant about R. I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary. Personally, I also think she's trying to figure out whether there is anything left for being "IN love" with me.
> 
> For folks that have been a betrayed spouse and worked on R, are these feelings normal.... for both of us? Also for wayward spouses that have once fell out of love (i love you but not in love with you), can the "IN love" feelings resurface ever again? (assuming both parties make changes - guy applies MMSLP concepts, etc.)
> 
> To be honest, I'm not implying R is definitely something I want. I'm just letting this play out, 1 month at a time by judging her actions. I'm lost myself and am going through roller coaster of understanding what I want. Nonetheless, I do feel a lot more detached from her compared to 2 weeks ago and prior.


Your heart might be in the right place with good intentions but attempting R in the current situation is pretty stupid.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

ConfusedInCali said:


> I have nothing to say to that as I think that is a fair assessment and hit it right on point. I indeed had no idea that the state of our marriage was to that degree. Sure, she had complained for over a year that we don't talk much anymore, except about the kids.etc. I guess I didn't think it would have ever led to an affair. Shame on me.
> 
> But I had wished she talked to me about the severity of her feelings regarding our marriage. And with that, the affair still isn't justified.



Oh, I am not justifying her affair, it is what she used to justify it. Nor, do I put it on the same level as her actions. Your action caused a loss of intimacy, her actions cost the break of a family. I was hoping to give you insight of some of the things you can work on. Those are some issues you will need to fix whether your with her or not. I just wanted you to be aware. You both need to work on communication. You both lost understanding of each other, and stop listening to what the other was saying.


----------



## tom67

carmen ohio said:


> Mr. Fisty,
> 
> I don't understand your advice.
> 
> It has been stated that, in California, alimony becomes permanent after ten years of marriage. (Actually, the law is a little more complicated than that -- see, e.g., California Spousal Support FAQs | DivorceNet.com -- but this is a good starting point for considering the consequences of divorcing now rather than later.) CiC is in his eighth year of marriage, I believe. So, it would seem to behoove him divorce her now rather than run the risk of a failed attempt at reconciliation followed by paying alimony for many years into the future.
> 
> Did I misunderstand you?


Remember what BFF said he was within MONTHS of LIFETIME alimony.
Just sayin.


----------



## Dyokemm

"She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary."

The next time she is behaving reluctant towards R and hits you with this, tell her that you have the opposite fear.

Tell her that you fear that her transformation into a lying, deceptive, cold-hearted cheater might be a permanent one...so you are taking a chance here too and your doubts actually have far more serious ramifications for potential future pain than hers ever will.


----------



## LongWalk

When she initiated sex did you feel she was into it? Into you? You said it was awkward. Awkward as in strangers exploring or as you not believing in her desire.

For me reconciliation would require good sex. She should be well satisfied and there should be no boundary. She should be able to say that she loves you or show it through her non-verbal body language. In the morning she should have a smile.

Keep going with the divorce. Be strong. Be a leader. From time to time you may want to give her openings to be remorseful. Listen to her look her in the eye.

Is she merely afraid that she cannot improve herself? Is she afraid of being the divorced cheating wife? That's okay as a motivation, but she has to fall back in love with you. It is not easy but not impossible.

Does she know you still love her? Do you tell her?


----------



## Roselyn

You are married for 8.5 years with two young children. She is 40 and you are 37. She is a stay at home mother. She had an affair with a younger man who is a coach. It would have continued if you have not discovered the affair. Her mother also cheated and is still with the other man after more than 20 years. The apple did not fall too far from the tree. Your wife is hesitant for a reconciliation. Her lover has been fired. You experienced awkwardness in your last intimate encounter. It should not be after being married for 8.5 years. You live in California.

Given that you live in California, I recommend that you divorce her. You definitely do not want alimony payments for her entire life if you reach the 10 year mark of marriage. She might cheat again, then what? You will be required child support, however. If you wish to stay with your wife, the trend today is to live together. Why not for you? It will give you time to assess your situation.

You ask if your wife has a midlife crises. I will say to you a definitely NO. I am 56 years old and a woman. Hot flashes and feeling tired are mid-life crises for most women. I don't recall having a mid-life crises as I am too busy as a career woman. If I went through the physical change, I didn't notice. Your wife is without any hobby and therefore bored. Another middle class spoilt wife. 

I am ongoing 35 years married. Our marriage is the first time for both of us. Married at 22 and 24 years old in California. I'm the younger.

Complete the divorce. Go to a psychologist to get your mind straight. You are only 37 years of age. Great things are still coming your way.


----------



## ellaenchanted

Confused in Cali, 
This is what I think, I think your wife KNOWS about the alimony on the 10 year marriage mark and it could be the reason why she wants to R, she seems like a spoilt brat to me. 
If my non existent husband went and stuck his penis into someone else's vagina behind my back it is a DEAL BREAKER full stop. 
Unless his on his knees sobbing his heart out I WILL leave. 
Because I don't want to be with someone that will act like their sorry and will most likely divorce me when the 10 year mark comes around. 

I think you get the point now, she's an immature spoilt brat that wants to stay home and have her lovely hard working husband to go to work while she fvcks around. 

That's just my opinion. Their are millions of fish in the sea. You're stil soooo young you can find plenty of women and plus do you want to pay alimony for the rest of your life? I think not. She's not sorry to me. 
It's time to look after your self and you tell HER that you're no longer in love with her. You're the man its your choice, she cheated.


----------



## bigfoot

Confused, 

Why are you letting this "play out"? You need to step up and start assessing what it is you want and why. Why do you want to continue with her? She is, from what i have read, blaming you for her affair because she resented you for working so she could be a stay at home mom? 

Put that bullshyte in a sentence. "I cultivated a romantic and sexual relationship with a coach and repeatedly had sex with them and emotional intimacy because I was mad at you for working to make the money needed to maintain our lifestyle". She did not say, "I was so pissed at your work schedule that I picked up a job so that you could work less." Or, "I started working from home so I could see you more".

Your wife is lying to you and possibly herself. She knows what she wants, and it is not necessarily you. You also said, "_For her, I could tell she's hesitant about R. I asked her a few days ago why is she hesitant - she said she is still resentful that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary. Personally, I also think she's trying to figure out whether there is anything left for being "IN love" with me_."

That is the purest form of BS that I have ever seen. You may want to stick with her until you are totally gutted and paying lifetime alimony, but rest assured, she has an end game in mind. Your role will be that of financier. After all, that is what you have been so far and she resented you for it. Why do you think that she wont screw you over worse now that she has been exposed? Heck, her last statements to you clearly say just that. 

If you are not in individual counseling to figure out why you have not cut this woman off after hearing her words, then you need to be. MC focuses on the marriage, but IC focuses on you. Her statements and your willingness to accept them show that you need some individual counseling.

Good luck. You are gonna need it.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

LongWalk said:


> When she initiated sex did you feel she was into it? Into you? You said it was awkward. Awkward as in strangers exploring or as you not believing in her desire.
> 
> For me reconciliation would require good sex. She should be well satisfied and there should be no boundary. She should be able to say that she loves you or show it through her non-verbal body language. In the morning she should have a smile.
> 
> Keep going with the divorce. Be strong. Be a leader. From time to time you may want to give her openings to be remorseful. Listen to her look her in the eye.
> 
> Is she merely afraid that she cannot improve herself? Is she afraid of being the divorced cheating wife? That's okay as a motivation, but she has to fall back in love with you. It is not easy but not impossible.
> 
> Does she know you still love her? Do you tell her?



Sorry - slow response due to the holidays with WS and family. 

When we did have sex, she was definitely into it. I didn't mean the awkwardness with sex, but I meant the following day as in our actions with each other. I felt a bit like... why did I have sex with somebody who cheated on me and she was probably thinking about .....does this mean we are locked together for long term? Just a bit awkward I think, for both of us.

However, we spent some time alone without the kids on a 2 day getaway after Christmas - I think we both felt good about each other. I set this up as I wanted to see if we can still rekindle some spark. She thought it was a great idea too. We had a GREAT time. She initiated affectionate actions like hand holding, cuddling, etc. We had sex on both nights and we were both into it. However, since we have gotten back to our day to day lives with our kids, etc..... it seemed to be back to non-sexual, daily hustle and bustle with kids, etc. We've spent so much time together the last 2 weeks that perhaps we have "overloaded" each other?

For example, I've been feeling very resentful over the last few days after we came back from our trip - she's not as affectionate. I'm almost 100% certain the affair is over, but as I stated previously, I still question whether she is EXCITED to be with me. I'm wondering if this has to do with the day to day motherhood life, and that she wants excitement on day to day basis. (Goes back to me questioning whether she is going through midlife crisis.) 

With that, I've stated before that I'm just taking this month by month to let things "play out" and see how I feel about things. I would say that over the last week, I've felt like D is inevitable if things continue like they have over this last week. As she shows less affection (compared to our getaway), I'm starting to feel less attractive to her and more resentful about her affair. On the flip side, I do think things are better now than they were 1 month ago, in terms of our interaction, our willingness to work things out, etc. But things just aren't "normal" yet and perhaps it takes time? I'm not sure. 

My feelings: I feel resentful and angry because she hasn't given everything I want or need for reconciliation. However, she's shown some willingness to TRY to reconcile vs. 1 month ago. At this point, I'm still confused but I can say I'm much more willing to let go of this marriage than I did several weeks ago. And that's mostly because if she can't be excited about being with me, then I should move on and avoid her being in another affair in the future.


----------



## Decorum

Cali,
It seems that it is a very painful limbo to try to reconcile with someone who is not "all in".

I do wish you well.
Take care.


----------



## D.H Mosquito

Decorum said:


> Sounds like she just wants to put this all behind her, cant you just get over it?
> 
> Cant the two of you just get back to normal?


Easier said than done, some days i take all in my stride and think stuff them i'm bigger than this and get on with life other days i have my dark moments of the soul with anger self doubt uncertainty wanting to know why and every single little thing dissect it and question question question even if it has all been explained as best she can, i'm sure he does too although mine was not as recent as his it will still hurt from time to time and the doubt lingers of will it happen again, he has to overcome these negative feelings that will strike him but this is all part of getting over it and he will given time, i do think there must be something in the midlife crisis as this was roughly the ages of us when it happened but it can get fixed if she is willing to face what she has done and if he can forgive her it's a tall order i know but we're still together and so are others that post here


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## Decorum

Mr Useless said:


> Easier said than done, some days i take all in my stride and think stuff them i'm bigger than this and get on with life other days i have my dark moments of the soul with anger self doubt uncertainty wanting to know why and every single little thing dissect it and question question question even if it has all been explained as best she can, i'm sure he does too although mine was not as recent as his it will still hurt from time to time and the doubt lingers of will it happen again, he has to overcome these negative feelings that will strike him but this is all part of getting over it and he will given time, i do think there must be something in the midlife crisis as this was roughly the ages of us when it happened but it can get fixed if she is willing to face what she has done and if he can forgive her it's a tall order i know but we're still together and so are others that post here



Yes of course you are right Mr. U, I was really just trying to mirror an attitude that is common to an un-remorseful spouse. I actually came back to delete it as I thought better of it after I posted, but you were quicker on the draw. It very difficult to heal if the other person is not "all in".

I hope Cali's wife steps up or he can make the best choice for himself.

I will edit my post to reflect that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Cali

Copy your post:



> When we did have sex, she was definitely into it. I didn't mean the awkwardness with sex, but I meant the following day as in our actions with each other. I felt a bit like... why did I have sex with somebody who cheated on me and she was probably thinking about .....does this mean we are locked together for long term? Just a bit awkward I think, for both of us.
> 
> However, we spent some time alone without the kids on a 2 day getaway after Christmas - I think we both felt good about each other. I set this up as I wanted to see if we can still rekindle some spark. She thought it was a great idea too. We had a GREAT time. She initiated affectionate actions like hand holding, cuddling, etc. We had sex on both nights and we were both into it. However, since we have gotten back to our day to day lives with our kids, etc..... it seemed to be back to non-sexual, daily hustle and bustle with kids, etc. We've spent so much time together the last 2 weeks that perhaps we have "overloaded" each other?
> 
> For example, I've been feeling very resentful over the last few days after we came back from our trip - she's not as affectionate. I'm almost 100% certain the affair is over, but as I stated previously, I still question whether she is EXCITED to be with me. I'm wondering if this has to do with the day to day motherhood life, and that she wants excitement on day to day basis. (Goes back to me questioning whether she is going through midlife crisis.)
> 
> With that, I've stated before that I'm just taking this month by month to let things "play out" and see how I feel about things. I would say that over the last week, I've felt like D is inevitable if things continue like they have over this last week. As she shows less affection (compared to our getaway), I'm starting to feel less attractive to her and more resentful about her affair. On the flip side, I do think things are better now than they were 1 month ago, in terms of our interaction, our willingness to work things out, etc. But things just aren't "normal" yet and perhaps it takes time? I'm not sure.
> 
> My feelings: I feel resentful and angry because she hasn't given everything I want or need for reconciliation. However, she's shown some willingness to TRY to reconcile vs. 1 month ago. At this point, I'm still confused but I can say I'm much more willing to let go of this marriage than I did several weeks ago. And that's mostly because if she can't be excited about being with me, then I should move on and avoid her being in another affair in the future.


Print it out and ask your wife to read it and then discuss your feelings and her feelings about you.

You two really need some brutal open, honest conversations.

Sex is just a Band-Aid in the beginning. What you both need right now is honesty between the two of you and her remorse.

Talk to her.

HM


----------



## Graywolf2

ConfusedInCali said:


> With that, I've stated before that I'm just taking this month by month to let things "play out" and see how I feel about things. I would say that over the last week, I've felt like D is inevitable if things continue like they have over this last week.


I know a guy whose wife talked him into moving form Texas to California. He was a physician and had a private practice for many years so the move was a big deal. 

They weren’t there long when she filed for divorce. Hello lifetime alimony.

You need to stop the clock by divorcing her. Continue to living with her if you want.


----------



## jim123

ConfusedInCali said:


> Sorry - slow response due to the holidays with WS and family.
> 
> When we did have sex, she was definitely into it. I didn't mean the awkwardness with sex, but I meant the following day as in our actions with each other. I felt a bit like... why did I have sex with somebody who cheated on me and she was probably thinking about .....does this mean we are locked together for long term? Just a bit awkward I think, for both of us.
> 
> However, we spent some time alone without the kids on a 2 day getaway after Christmas - I think we both felt good about each other. I set this up as I wanted to see if we can still rekindle some spark. She thought it was a great idea too. We had a GREAT time. She initiated affectionate actions like hand holding, cuddling, etc. We had sex on both nights and we were both into it. However, since we have gotten back to our day to day lives with our kids, etc..... it seemed to be back to non-sexual, daily hustle and bustle with kids, etc. We've spent so much time together the last 2 weeks that perhaps we have "overloaded" each other?
> 
> For example, I've been feeling very resentful over the last few days after we came back from our trip - she's not as affectionate. I'm almost 100% certain the affair is over, but as I stated previously, I still question whether she is EXCITED to be with me. I'm wondering if this has to do with the day to day motherhood life, and that she wants excitement on day to day basis. (Goes back to me questioning whether she is going through midlife crisis.)
> 
> With that, I've stated before that I'm just taking this month by month to let things "play out" and see how I feel about things. I would say that over the last week, I've felt like D is inevitable if things continue like they have over this last week. As she shows less affection (compared to our getaway), I'm starting to feel less attractive to her and more resentful about her affair. On the flip side, I do think things are better now than they were 1 month ago, in terms of our interaction, our willingness to work things out, etc. But things just aren't "normal" yet and perhaps it takes time? I'm not sure.
> 
> My feelings: I feel resentful and angry because she hasn't given everything I want or need for reconciliation. However, she's shown some willingness to TRY to reconcile vs. 1 month ago. At this point, I'm still confused but I can say I'm much more willing to let go of this marriage than I did several weeks ago. And that's mostly because if she can't be excited about being with me, then I should move on and avoid her being in another affair in the future.


You have done what many of the BH on this board does. You have rewarded her for the affair. She blames you for the A. If you were a better husband, it would not have happened.

You need to take action for you M and for you. Do not accept this You deserve to be happy. You deserve better.

Unless WW is in 110% you are wasting your time. I would see an attorney and start moving to D.


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## warlock07

This is going to end up being one of the false R scenario.


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## jim123

warlock07 said:


> This is going to end up being one of the false R scenario.


Either that or one where the BH does not heal. She has no respect for him


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## warlock07

Cali, when you do have the time, please a dadof2 threads..

You can repair the damage, but when the foundation is broken, it is only a temporary measure.


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## ConfusedInCali

warlock07 said:


> This is going to end up being one of the false R scenario.


Thanks for the honest feedback. What would a real R look like, based on her actions?

I would say back in nov I was certain I myself wanted R but given her actions that she's not 100% all in, I'm not certain I want R anymore. My resentment is growing and I plan to let it all out in our MC session this Thursday. Probably because I'm starting to give up.


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## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks for the honest feedback. What would a real R look like, based on her actions?
> 
> I would say back in nov I was certain I myself wanted R but given her actions that she's not 100% all in, I'm not certain I want R anymore. My resentment is growing and I plan to let it all out in our MC session this Thursday. Probably because I'm starting to give up.


Ah, the emotional rollercoaster. Talk about a real b*tch. It's pretty rough for any BS, and especially those that opt for reconciliation. 

Try to keep a level head and hang in there, man... at least for as long as you're committed to reconciliation. (Oh... and should you decide to divorce? Keep the level head.)

How often do the two of you discuss your marriage outside of your MC sessions?

And about your experiences w/ counseling to date...

How many sessions have the two of you attended to date?

How do the sessions seem to be going... is your counselor urging you to rugsweep your WW's affair at all, or is he/she holding her feet to the fire?

Has the counselor given either of you any "homework"?

Have either of you read any of the books commonly mentioned here?


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## BashfulB

ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks for the honest feedback. What would a real R look like, based on her actions?
> 
> I would say back in nov I was certain I myself wanted R but given her actions that she's not 100% all in, I'm not certain I want R anymore. My resentment is growing and I plan to let it all out in our MC session this Thursday. Probably because I'm starting to give up.


If she were determined to R with you, believe me, you would know it. 

The fact that you are questioning her motives tells us all that she is not serious about R. WSs who are contrite and who are serious about saving their marriages try to move heaven and earth to show their BS they are serious and committed. From everything you have described, she is going through the motions, keeping you on the hook, and biding her time until another candidate comes along. 

She wants out Cali. File for that divorce before you end up owing her money for the rest of her natural life.


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## ConfusedInCali

So we went to our 2nd counseling session yesterday. I learned a lot.

I talked about our communication - that I find it sad that I can't have a conversation with my wife outside of the session due to the fact that she often escalates discussions to the point of screaming and just walking away. But this has always been the case, even pre-affair when we have arguments. We don't have these arguments very often, but when we talk about something serious like our relationship, it often escalates to that.

I acknowledged her trying a bit more - being more patient, showing some affection to me at times, sex, listening more during our weekend getaway. However, I did tell her after we got back from our weekend getaway, she wasn't trying as hard vs. during the getaway...and that wasn't enough for me. I told her honestly that it made me feel resentful that she sorta stopped trying after that weekend. She also declined sex when I attempted after we got back. I told her how she could decline sex to me but easily throw herself at another man and that this will forever be an issue whenever she declines sex. She agrees that it's going to be a big problem in future when she declines. SHE herself said that after spending so much time together over the last 2 weeks, she felt a bit overwhelmed with my presence and when we got back from our getaway it was that point where she wanted some more space. She said she wasn't disgusted by me or wanted to run away from me, but she felt me being around her for that long was crossing her independence.....that she was used to being alone with the kids and didn't need to ask me where we going for dinner, can she go here or there, etc.

Anyhow, long story short.... *the fact that she still feels like she doesn't want me around 24/7 right now means it's silly to even try to reconcile, am I right?And that was what I really wanted out of my counseling session yesterday - I was already thinking of quitting on trying for "reconciliation" due to my recent feelings and increased resentment, but I think HER real feelings tipped me over to think this is a fake reconciliation, as you guys have pointed out... right? *

So at the end of the session, I told her let's just do our own thing and move on with our lives. And that I don't want anybody to dictate my happiness. I told her that my resentment is too strong right now, and I was willing to try to give us an opportunity to save our family if she was REALLY trying to R, but it's obvious her actions demonstrate she's not wholeheartedly there. 

Divorce papers have already been filed last month, but now following through with it in the process seems inevitable. (I was originally thinking we see if R makes sense while it's sitting in the courts.) Anyhow, it's been hard emotionally and I realize I have to keep myself busy when kids are in her custody. But at least I feel that I know where our future stands and I'm not in limbo. Still very difficult nonetheless. There is some part of me that still wants her back maybe in the future, but definitely not now given where her head is at and how I'm resentful for her lack of trying harder.


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## Lostinthought61

may i ask what was her response to your decsion ?


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## GusPolinski

ConfusedInCali said:


> So we went to our 2nd counseling session yesterday. I learned a lot.
> 
> I talked about our communication - that I find it sad that I can't have a conversation with my wife outside of the session due to the fact that she often escalates discussions to the point of screaming and just walking away. But this has always been the case, even pre-affair when we have arguments. We don't have these arguments very often, but when we talk about something serious like our relationship, it often escalates to that.
> 
> I acknowledged her trying a bit more - being more patient, showing some affection to me at times, sex, listening more during our weekend getaway. However, I did tell her after we got back from our weekend getaway, she wasn't trying as hard vs. during the getaway...and that wasn't enough for me. I told her honestly that it made me feel resentful that she sorta stopped trying after that weekend. She also declined sex when I attempted after we got back. I told her how she could decline sex to me but easily throw herself at another man and that this will forever be an issue whenever she declines sex. She agrees that it's going to be a big problem in future when she declines. SHE herself said that after spending so much time together over the last 2 weeks, she felt a bit overwhelmed with my presence and when we got back from our getaway it was that point where she wanted some more space. She said she wasn't disgusted by me or wanted to run away from me, but she felt me being around her for that long was crossing her independence.....that she was used to being alone with the kids and didn't need to ask me where we going for dinner, can she go here or there, etc.
> 
> Anyhow, long story short.... *the fact that she still feels like she doesn't want me around 24/7 right now means it's silly to even try to reconcile, am I right?And that was what I really wanted out of my counseling session yesterday - I was already thinking of quitting on trying for "reconciliation" due to my recent feelings and increased resentment, but I think HER real feelings tipped me over to think this is a fake reconciliation, as you guys have pointed out... right? *
> 
> So at the end of the session, I told her let's just do our own thing and move on with our lives. And that I don't want anybody to dictate my happiness. I told her that my resentment is too strong right now, and I was willing to try to give us an opportunity to save our family if she was REALLY trying to R, but it's obvious her actions demonstrate she's not wholeheartedly there.
> 
> Divorce papers have already been filed last month, but now following through with it in the process seems inevitable. (I was originally thinking we see if R makes sense while it's sitting in the courts.) Anyhow, it's been hard emotionally and I realize I have to keep myself busy when kids are in her custody. But at least I feel that I know where our future stands and I'm not in limbo. Still very difficult nonetheless. There is some part of me that still wants her back maybe in the future, but definitely not now given where her head is at and how I'm resentful for her lack of trying harder.


Solid reasoning. If she'd rather distance herself from you and then fuss about her "space" and "independence" when you call her on it, then there's just no point in trying to reconcile w/ her.

Sorry man.

It's time for the 180; not to win her back, but to detach from her.


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## ConfusedInCali

Xenote said:


> may i ask what was her response to your decsion ?


She wasn't all that surprised. During the session when we talked about our communication, my trust in her, and my expectations of her and her not be able to fulfill them.....I think we both sensed there was a huge disconnect in expectations and patience. i.e., That had already set up the stage for me deciding to just moving on separately, so she wasn't that surprised. 

I think I surprised her a bit when after the decision she said perhaps when we have our own time with the kids.....that it's ok if i ask to join them for dinner and she hopes she can also ask to join us for dinner... I declined and said no. I said outside of common events for our kids, let's just live our own lives.


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## Mr.Fisty

We humans sometimes chase what gives us the most rewarding feelings. I wouldn't be surprised if there is another man, or she likes the freedom of acting single while she has a husband to support her. In her mind, it is probably more beneficial to be separated. The reasons why, only she would know. Perhaps, she was never a relationship type of person. She faked it as long as she could. Just like she tried up until the getaway, but it is not within her to try that much longer. Anyways, for her it is not worth it.

You have to figure out how long you can try before your emotionally burnt out. The reward for you would be an intact family, and a spouse, but you have to look at the reality of the situation. She is the key to the reward, and she is blocking the way. You need to detach, and find out what you can do to make your life content without her. You have to change your goals to match with the current reality. Keep working on yourself, detach, make yourself a priority, take focus away from her, let her live life without you, find out what would make you be happy as you alone.


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## ConfusedInCali

I know that folks go through emotional roller coasters, but if this is indeed the end of my "drama", I just want to say thanks to all of you that provided solid input, advice, and feedback.

I'm sincerely grateful. 

Thanks.


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## farsidejunky

The last paragraph was perfect.

You move on and don't allow her to use you to hold her emotional baggage.


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## LongWalk

TAM has had quite a few threads to which you might relate.

Dadof2 – His wife tried to reconcile because she hated the idea of her good husband not being there for her. But when she experimentally kissed him she discovered no desire. Why were her feelings dead? Partially just bored like your wife, but she also has a diet pill addiction. Drugs weaken morality.

But your wife is not drinking or self medicating, is she?

HardtoDetach – On the verge of divorce. R is limping along. His wife enjoyed sex with him. He wrecked OM's job.

RoadScholar – wife denied him pvssy for 6 months of false R. When he said f this, she wanted to go on a weekend to resume intimacy. He reported that the sex was awkward at first. He knew he was competing with OM's newness.

Things improved. His wife is less selfish than she was prior to the affair. RoadScholar has mixed feelings but his wife is pretty committed to R. He wants to keep the family whole for the kids.

LostLove – cheating wife played all sorts of mind games to string him along. She slept with at least 3 or 4 guys after separating. He would have forgiven her and attempted R. After a year of being jerked around he got a GF. Suddenly, his wife wanted to R. We don't know what happened but for sure he was going to have trouble dealing with all her history. Her explanation? Nervous breakdown.

Kolors – WAW who was in EA. She drove him out. Their marriage had run into a string of economic troubles. Once he moved out and concentrated on getting better work he succeeded in getting a great new job. He quickly got promoted. He found his old teen GF was divorced and their two lots of kids got along.

WAW was p!ssed. The happiness and success should have been shared with her, she thought. She never wanted divorce. Just some space. Luckily for Kolors, he had even reported on his TAM thread that she wanted him to put down no adultery complaints while waiting for the D to become final. So some space meant trying on new guys.

What to do?

IMO you should press forward with the D. Do the modified 180. Be nice but not the needy one. If she wants to have sex, bang her. If she wants to talk listen. Look her in the eyes. But make it clear by your attitude that she is being phased out. That bothers her but only she can decided to try and fall in love again.

Work out. Buy new clothes. Go out to listen to indie bands with friends. Take up new hobbies or old to get your mind off the craziness.

Your wife is 40. If she runs through a few guys, she may just find herself an out of date divorcee who cannot pull the guy she wants into an LTR.

You ought to be able to replace her.

p.s. You posted again since I wrote the above. Telling her its over is good. Will help her clarify her thinking faster. Keep going with the 180. Don't let her jerk you around.

You ought to be able to replace her. Try going to meetup or other activities to socialize


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## HobbesTheTiger

Glad to hear the strength in your recent posts! Thanks for the updates!

I recommend reading http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...prepare-potential-divorce-custody-battle.html and protecting yourself and the kids.

What does your lawyer say, what's the procedure from hereonout? How long till divorce?

Best wishes


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## happyman64

Cali

Your wife is still being selfish.

And if she is going to still play the victim then R is not possible.

LW gave you great advice. I think you have the will to be independent and happy.

Focus on you.

HM


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## warlock07

Don't be the boy that cries wolf too many times. Say it only if you mean it


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## Chaparral

Its important to show her at this point how to do the things you are no longer going to be there to do for her. This may wake her up. You constantly see women complaining about how unappreciated they are but I men being treated that way just as much.

When she asks you why your showing her how to start the lawn mower, check the tires and oil in the car, separate the bank ACCTS etc., tell her it looks like she no longer needs you around and these are things she needs to know.

It just might wake her up though I'm not sure that's what you need.


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## Chaparral

Btw, the reason I brought that up is because it might be fun for the cheater to play, the gaping hole left by the father is statistically unlikely to be filled again. Women have a hard time actually finding a replacement.

According to infidelity statistics list, 80% of the couples that divorce because of infidelity, regret that decision and wish they had worked things out and saved the family. Its sad all the way around when you can't put the cat back in the bag.


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## Graywolf2

ConfusedInCali said:


> I think I surprised her a bit when after the decision she said perhaps when we have our own time with the kids.....that it's ok if i ask to join them for dinner and she hopes she can also ask to join us for dinner... I declined and said no. I said outside of common events for our kids, let's just live our own lives.


You did the right thing.

:smthumbup: 

In a way this is like “cake eating” during the affair. You’re a great family man and she sincerely enjoys family time with you. She's just not attracted to you. You’re like a brother. 

Spend family time with your kids. Spending family time with her will slow down your efforts to move on with your life.


----------



## jim123

ConfusedInCali said:


> She wasn't all that surprised. During the session when we talked about our communication, my trust in her, and my expectations of her and her not be able to fulfill them.....I think we both sensed there was a huge disconnect in expectations and patience. i.e., That had already set up the stage for me deciding to just moving on separately, so she wasn't that surprised.
> 
> I think I surprised her a bit when after the decision she said perhaps when we have our own time with the kids.....that it's ok if i ask to join them for dinner and she hopes she can also ask to join us for dinner... I declined and said no. I said outside of common events for our kids, let's just live our own lives.


She wants this because she can continue with the A or start a new one. If you are separated it is no cheating in her mind.

She also feels that she always can have you as plan B. File D and take away plan B. Make this real for her. Also time to expose.


----------



## ConfusedInCali

Chaparral said:


> Its important to show her at this point how to do the things you are no longer going to be there to do for her. This may wake her up. You constantly see women complaining about how unappreciated they are but I men being treated that way just as much.
> 
> When she asks you why your showing her how to start the lawn mower, check the tires and oil in the car, separate the bank ACCTS etc., tell her it looks like she no longer needs you around and these are things she needs to know.
> 
> It just might wake her up though I'm not sure that's what you need.



Thanks Chaparral. I did start showing her how to do things around the house, more so for the kids. (changing TV inputs for the game console for our kids, where the batteries are for the kids' toys, etc.). We also talked about how I'm canceling the credit cards we share, etc. This actually all happened a month ago when I first filed for divorce. 

This last month was for me - I wanted to see for myself based on her actions how dedicated she was in working on R when she pleaded me to after I told her I'm filing. It just wasn't enough. I think the fact that we had brutal honesty with one another in our last counseling session last Thursday confirmed that we just aren't for each other. Perhaps we grew apart, perhaps we changed, perhaps she was never there but held on as long as she could. I don't know. 

Regardless, even if she "wakes up", I'm not sure I would really believe that she's woken up. Just a lot of resentful on my part and what she did: The cheating, the lack of communication and telling me our issues prior to the affair, the lack of effort in the last month, her impatience as her personality. So me doing all this isn't to wake her up, but I think I just wouldn't be happy with her at this point in time. Maybe if things change months or years from now and we still have strong feelings for each other and learn to understand one another, then maybe we'll get back together. But now, I think she and I BOTH agree we're not good for each other right now.

That said, I'm still heartbroken. Hard to sleep, playing the victim card, feeling sad. But I know it's best for me right now. As sad as I am though, if she came to me tomorrow, next week, next month and said she wants R, at this point I honestly wouldn't believe it would be a genuine R. However, if she came back months from now or years from now, and if my heart is still there, I would give it a try. Right now, I just don't believe she is there for real R. 

I know what I need to do, take on new hobbies, keep myself busy. I'm already in great shape, upgraded my wardrobe, read MMSLP, etc. Nonetheless, things are still very hard emotionally - especially now that we aren't doing family events together outside of common kids stuff, I miss the kids dearly as well.


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## carmen ohio

ConfusedInCali, based on everything you've said, it sounds like D is the right decision for you. I hope things go well for you and your kids.


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## Mr Blunt

ConfusedInCali
Years ago my wife betrayed me and my children somewhat like your wife did. I divorced her and she said that she was remorseful and wanted to stay in the house. I let her stay in the house and watched her for over 4 YEARS before I remarried her. We have had a marriage that has a lot more good than bad and have over 20 years of R.

However, I see that your wife is different than mine after trying to R. Here are just a few of the things that I noticed about the differences between your wife and mine.



> BY ConfusedInCali
> She said *she is still resentful* that I focused on my work over family over the last 2 years, and was never attentive to her very much as well. She acknowledged that I'm completely different now but still *have concerns about whether my changes are just temporary.*


My wife’s excuses were about the same as your wife. However, my wife was not resentful and said nothing about what I need to do to change or had concerns that my lax actions maybe just temporary. In other words, she was only concerned about what she did and wanted to improve herself without trying to focus on what I may have been lax in. I was a little lax in the attention I gave her and a few of the things that your wife mentioned about you but that is pure crap as a valid excuse for betrayal! What I was lax in was NO where close in comparison to betrayal. I was lax but I was a pretty good husband and father to our minor 3 children. I have improved in my lax areas. *Your wife being resentful and having focused on your possible errors in marriage tells me that your wife is not 100% remorseful.*




> BY ConfusedInCali
> And s*he questions* whether or not those issues could be resolved - communication issues, *her excitement* about our marriage, etc.


Your wife is immature and probably has read too many romance novels! Making excitement in marriage a criteria to stay married is what teenagers think. Your wife is 40 with children and lives in the real world! Excitement is very welcomed and can happen throughout the marriage but it can go through period of months even years without excitement. Making excitement a criteria is just plain silly. Do you know anyone that has a successful marriage and has a 25 years anniversary or more that make excitement a criteria? *These people that read romance novels, watch too much TV and movies, or some other reason that make them think that excitement is a criteria for marriage usually wind up divorced or very disappointed.*





> BY ConfusedInCali
> I still question whether she is EXCITED to be with me.
> .... The fact that she still feels like *she doesn't want me around 24/7 right now *means it's silly to even try to reconcile
> 
> She said she wasn't disgusted by me or wanted to run away from me, but she felt me being around her for that long was *crossing her independence.*..


Well ConfusedInCali, I think she answered your question with your posts above. She will not have to be around you or feel that you have crossed her independence when you divorce her!



> But given her actions that *she's not 100% all in*, I'm not certain I want R anymore.


*An R only has a chance if both are 100% into R and take the right actions!*


My wife and I have a good life but she does not resent me, was not concerned about my short coming when she was caught cheating, does not make me making her excited as a criteria for marriage, has never told me that she does not want me around 24/7 because it crossed her independence. Instead she begged me to marry her for 4 years and showed actions of remorse for over 4 years.

Blunt


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## jim123

ConfusedInCali said:


> Thanks Chaparral. I did start showing her how to do things around the house, more so for the kids. (changing TV inputs for the game console for our kids, where the batteries are for the kids' toys, etc.). We also talked about how I'm canceling the credit cards we share, etc. This actually all happened a month ago when I first filed for divorce.
> 
> This last month was for me - I wanted to see for myself based on her actions how dedicated she was in working on R when she pleaded me to after I told her I'm filing. It just wasn't enough. I think the fact that we had brutal honesty with one another in our last counseling session last Thursday confirmed that we just aren't for each other. Perhaps we grew apart, perhaps we changed, perhaps she was never there but held on as long as she could. I don't know.
> 
> Regardless, even if she "wakes up", I'm not sure I would really believe that she's woken up. Just a lot of resentful on my part and what she did: The cheating, the lack of communication and telling me our issues prior to the affair, the lack of effort in the last month, her impatience as her personality. So me doing all this isn't to wake her up, but I think I just wouldn't be happy with her at this point in time. Maybe if things change months or years from now and we still have strong feelings for each other and learn to understand one another, then maybe we'll get back together. But now, I think she and I BOTH agree we're not good for each other right now.
> 
> That said, I'm still heartbroken. Hard to sleep, playing the victim card, feeling sad. But I know it's best for me right now. As sad as I am though, if she came to me tomorrow, next week, next month and said she wants R, at this point I honestly wouldn't believe it would be a genuine R. However, if she came back months from now or years from now, and if my heart is still there, I would give it a try. Right now, I just don't believe she is there for real R.
> 
> I know what I need to do, take on new hobbies, keep myself busy. I'm already in great shape, upgraded my wardrobe, read MMSLP, etc. Nonetheless, things are still very hard emotionally - especially now that we aren't doing family events together outside of common kids stuff, I miss the kids dearly as well.


Sorry I missed that you filed D. Keep moving forward.


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## LongWalk

How are things going?

D seems like a good decision. If your WW had worn you out in bed and laughed and joked to change the mood, R might have worked. 

It is interesting that you see R in the future as possible. Really, you are saying she might grow up and put herself heart and soul back into your marriage. How many men will she need to test ride before she reaches enlightenment? I am not saying it is impossible. She may have a fall-back-in-love-with-husband switch that she feels will magically close the circuit.

Are you still living under one roof?

Have you agreed not to date for the time being?


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