# Losing It



## soca70

My story is similar to others on this site. At the end of Sept, W asks to talk to me and announces she's done and it's over after 11 years. She says that she's never been "in love" with me and that the qualities of my personality that attracted her to me have been erased over the last five years and replaced by negativity and cynicism. 

Backstory is we moved cross-country from an expensive city when we decided to have kids to my home state 6 years ago. We had 3 IVF attempts before we had twin boys who are now 5 1/2. We also sold a hosuse and built a new one two years ago which was a financial and emotional nightmare during the real estate downturn. Couple this with my company going unstable and the stress was overwhelming. Unfortunately I did not handle this well and vented most of my frustration on her by being snappy and irritable and obseesively worrying about finances.

I immediately went into the "I'll change" mode and suggested counseling. She indicated she had brought up counseling 2 years before but I dismissed it. At the time, we were working to find a therapist for behavioral issues one of our boys was having and I was focused on that instead. We had always said we'd never get divorced because of the kids. She said it's too late for MC as she checked out over a year ago since I was never going to change and the lack of physical atrraction became an issue over the last 6-9 months (which I found confusing as we have sex every week or so).

She left for a business trip for 2 weeks but came back still firm in her decision and we have done an in-house separation with her in the guest bedroom. I said if she's walking out I'm keeping the house. She has secured a rental house in the neighborhood and will not leave until we sign a 50/50 co-parenting agreement as we have both been active parents. Agreement should be done in about 2 weeks as we both met with attorneys. She went to one MC session and told the therapist we had different goals as I was working to save the marriage and she was there to help me with the separation/divorce process. We both have been going to IC and hers confirmed for her "you know when it's done".

In the meantime, I have taken note of the similar results of this situation unfortunately as others - I've dropped 8 pounds in a month, can barely sleep, and am on 40 mg of Lexapro. I cannot believe that someone who was best friend a month ago is now an adversary in our house. We both work at home and it's surreal as we both go about the day. We just signed the refinance out of the construction loan on Friday and went to kindergarten parent-teacher conferences. She's convinced the kids will be fine with us divorced rather than have unhappy parents. Going forward though we re going toi have to cooridnate every day for the next 13 years for the kids' and our travel schedules. I cannot get over the fact she's not looking at the downsides of this and also how much she wants to be away from me to go through all this! My mind has accepted this but me heart is holding out for some kind of "Hail Mary" before she moves out in a couple of weeks.I've been wanting to do the 180 but we are both with the kids each day so not sure how. This is the most devastating thing I've ever experienced and I never see recovering from it.


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## how was your day?

soca...

im not in a good place right now

was married 6+ years... together 10 years, she left me about october 1st

today was the first time i saw her in almost 2 weeks, it set me back, good luck man... this is hard, no bull****


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## NoWhere

Your story sounds a lot like mine. My wife gave me the 'I love you, but I'm not in love with you' speech Sept 11. The date actually makes it worse since now it will be impossible to forget. Anyway maybe I was naive up to that point, but I come to find out she's seeing another guy.

You can do the 180 with kids. Though in my case it hasn't achieved any results. Maybe because I spent to much time at first pleading for our marriage or maybe I'm just not doing it right. My wife seems to not care a bit about me or any love we had together. I assume its because she is so infatuated with the OM. Others here have reported success with the 180 and it doesn't hurt to try.


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## lostinspaces

NoWhere - Trust me. I doesnt matter the date, you'll never forget it. Mine had no special significance until it happened and now I know I'll remember the date forever. 

I'm also pretty sure the 180 doesnt work well when the mate has already bonded with someone new (as in a lot of our cases). I still think it is good for the healing process, but as far as trying to get your partner back, I think they will never feel what tehy've lost while they still have the "new" support network (especially while it is still new and exciting). 

Soca - Just focus on making yourself better. You can't change what she feels right now, she'll either come out of it on her own ... or she won't. Unfortunately there is no "right" thing to do in these situations; every case is different, every person is different. What might work for one of us in saving a marriage may be what drives another's spouse away. That is whay (I think) you need to just focus on making yourself a better person. 

If you make yourself better, you'll feel better about yourself, which will make you more attractive ... to the spouse, or someone new.


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## Conrad

Soca,

Before you waste a bunch of time, find out if she has someone else.

How to best handle this is vastly different if she already has a posOM.


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## soca70

Thanks for the replies and advice. I had started working out again this year and have been keeping it up through this so I'm feeling OK physically.

Conrad - from the forums I saw that "ILYBNILWY" speech is often a sign of a posOM. Last weekend, for the first time in 11 years, I started checking through her email accounts, Facebook, etc. I did find a UserID to an online dating site which I confronted her about. She said she just registered to "check what's out there" after she indicated she was over us and on her trip but has not acted on anything and that she has been faithful for 11 years. I truly believe this as we work out of the house together, etc and have never once suspected anything. However, just finding that registration on that site made a part of me want to die.


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## Nsweet

soca70 said:


> My story is similar to others on this site. At the end of Sept, W asks to talk to me and announces she's done and it's over after 11 years. She says that she's never been "in love" with me and that the qualities of my personality that attracted her to me have been erased over the last five years and replaced by negativity and cynicism.
> 
> Backstory is we moved cross-country from an expensive city when we decided to have kids to my home state 6 years ago. We had 3 IVF attempts before we had twin boys who are now 5 1/2. We also sold a hosuse and built a new one two years ago which was a financial and emotional nightmare during the real estate downturn. Couple this with my company going unstable and the stress was overwhelming. Unfortunately I did not handle this well and vented most of my frustration on her by being snappy and irritable and obseesively worrying about finances.
> 
> I immediately went into the "I'll change" mode and suggested counseling. She indicated she had brought up counseling 2 years before but I dismissed it. At the time, we were working to find a therapist for behavioral issues one of our boys was having and I was focused on that instead. We had always said we'd never get divorced because of the kids. She said it's too late for MC as she checked out over a year ago since I was never going to change and the lack of physical atrraction became an issue over the last 6-9 months (which I found confusing as we have sex every week or so).
> 
> She left for a business trip for 2 weeks but came back still firm in her decision and we have done an in-house separation with her in the guest bedroom. I said if she's walking out I'm keeping the house. She has secured a rental house in the neighborhood and will not leave until we sign a 50/50 co-parenting agreement as we have both been active parents. Agreement should be done in about 2 weeks as we both met with attorneys. She went to one MC session and told the therapist we had different goals as I was working to save the marriage and she was there to help me with the separation/divorce process. We both have been going to IC and hers confirmed for her "you know when it's done".
> 
> In the meantime, I have taken note of the similar results of this situation unfortunately as others - I've dropped 8 pounds in a month, can barely sleep, and am on 40 mg of Lexapro. I cannot believe that someone who was best friend a month ago is now an adversary in our house. We both work at home and it's surreal as we both go about the day. We just signed the refinance out of the construction loan on Friday and went to kindergarten parent-teacher conferences. She's convinced the kids will be fine with us divorced rather than have unhappy parents. Going forward though we re going toi have to cooridnate every day for the next 13 years for the kids' and our travel schedules. I cannot get over the fact she's not looking at the downsides of this and also how much she wants to be away from me to go through all this! My mind has accepted this but me heart is holding out for some kind of "Hail Mary" before she moves out in a couple of weeks.I've been wanting to do the 180 but we are both with the kids each day so not sure how. This is the most devastating thing I've ever experienced and I never see recovering from it.


Yours is a very common problem with an easier solution than most provided there are not issues with affairs, abuse, or substances. You may have driven her crazy with a negative outlook but her poor self-esteem was the catalyst in this divorce. 

By telling you she never loved you..... "and I just want out of this relationship" she's giving you a poor cop out and rewriting history so she can feel her decision to divorce you was right. Essentially what she's doing is she's avoiding responsiblity for her true feelings so she can feel better and agree with her bruised ego. 

To put it another way it would be like you telling me you hated your children after they've done something that upsets you. You know you don't hate them but you want to be upset and so you fight for any negative feelings you may have to keep that hatred flowing. Ever have your wife tell you not to make her laugh when she's trying to argue with you? 

If you want your wife back the solution is simple. Agree with her feelings 100% and act happy about her decision to avoid any friction. And learn to love yourself and be happy without her. By following the 180 you'll stop caring about what she thinks of you and show her you're changing for the better because you'll actually have hobbies outside of her you enjoy. 

But here's what makes your case special...... If you both work at home then you're seeing an aweful lot of each other as it is. You have no room to breathe without running into each other and you can't fake that work is going great because she's right there with you. Your 180 will be astoundingly easier once you separate and actually get a chance to miss each other. That is if you can show her you're not head over heels in love with her when she's pulling away and a completely conquored man. 

I have a feeling in just a few short months you'll be making excuses to see each other.


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## Orpheus

Soca, sorry for your situation. I'm a few more months in front of you. What i've learned from countless hours here is that very little of the details matter. Over is over until it isn't. Why they've left matters little if at all. The only direction for you to go is towards you and to drag your kids and your finances along with you. If your stbxw ever had a change of heart she would be certain to let you know. There wouldn't be hidden signals and there isn't any soft dance you can do that's going to make a damn difference.

It sounds like you understand on some level that you've let yourself go. And you know what you have to do to regain yourself for your own benefit. Processing my divorce is some of the most emotional pain i'll ever go through. Worse than when my father passed away. Stick to YOU; seek distraction; push for separation and division as soon as possible; create "new" experiences and relationships (friends etc).

And writing and reading here helps a great deal.


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## soca70

I don't know why reading other people's hideous stories on this site brings some comfort but it does. It helps to see that these feelings I have are "normal".

As an update, W still insists that marriage is over/done and has moved forward with securing rental house a 5 minute walk away. I found out she was writing large checks for security deposits, rent, furniture, utilities out of our joint account. I went to the bank and transferred our available checking/savings into a new account I opened as my therapist agreed I needed to protect myself. W comes home after having debit card being declined at Subway and angrily confronts me about wanting to "play it that way". I said she's free to go but I'm not paying for it. She has since opened up new credit cards and run up about $7K for cash advances, etc. and to pay me back $2500 from the joint acccount.

We had a meeting with our family therapist for ways to break the news to the kids once we have the co-custody agreement in place. I was seething thge entire time as she is going on and on about how this is the best solution for our kids, etc. Absolutely no concern over this! Therapist agreed that the best solution is 50/50 since we have been equal throughout in terms of parenting due to travel schedules.

She has always been very close with my family and we have all vacationed together over the years, hung out at our family lakehouse, etc. I let her know this weekend that my parents have chosen to remove her from our family as she has decided to remove herself from ours without any counselling effort and putting the kids in this situation. She was more hurt by this by anything I've said and turned it around on my parents for treating her like that and it would be their loss. I said "What loss? A W that walks out on her family?"

Yesterday, my sister let me know that she has a new "friend" on FB from when she was out of town or work after she dropped this bomb on me. I looked and this guy friended her on the Monday after she supposedly had to extend her trip at her boss' request over the weekend through the next Wed. WTH?

The thing that is getting me the most is that while I've been an emotional wreck over this she looks stressed as hell also. However, she says not from second-guessing her decision or the kids but from how to finance this move out. At times, she looks happy as a clam and asked me to bring down the toaster (toaster!) from the lakehouse when I go up to get some furniture to put in the office since she moved that out on 11/1 to the rental. I've noticed from others that the spouses look the same but start acting like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" - who is this person????

We sat down yesterday to figure out an asset/payment agreement which I am trying to expedite as it's pretty favorable to me. I know her main concern is the 50/50 custody but I am meeting with my attorney tomorrow to figure out a way to gain majority control. My thinking if someone is going to destroy 3 lives, they sure as hell are not going to do it without repercussions. I'm holding back the FB info pending what the lawyer says.

Just wanted to get this out as I'm starting to slip into the "angry" phase of this I think.


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## oncehisangel

there's been a ufo landing and its taken all the nice out of them... i think they're all on a big ship talking about their crappy marriages.

Im sorry you're going through this. Just take comfort in the fact that you are not alone in the whole mess.
And it's ok to get angry-thats better than the sad days.

Look after you and your kids ok


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## soca70

Thanks oncehisangel! Another nugget this week was "Do you mind watching the kids on Saturday night? I'm going to a concert with (mutual friends) out of town and I deserve to have some fun during this!"


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## oncehisangel

I hear you. I got "Im going to Apollo bay and then America. I said 'great send me a postcard"
meanwhile Im let wih a house that needs repairs to sell and confusion and no money. 



Ive dropped 11 kilos in nine weeks. Its yuch.

People should love us in the good and the bad you know. But sometimes they just cant
Dont be mad at you. This is her issue. ok


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## the guy

Tell her you will watch the kids and keep the kids and that you don't want the stink of the other man to get on them.

or


Tell her until we have a custody aggrement you will not tolorate her acting single when she has kids to look after and if she goes you will consider this abandonment.

Or

tell her you will watch the kids and watch them for the rest of there life and she can go phuck off and don't even bother to come back.

Or 

Tell her you will watch them this weekend and she can watch them next week end cuz you have met someone else.


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## soca70

Oncehisangel - I've dropped 11 pounds in a month down to goal weight now so I guess that's a positive.

The guy - the friends are good friends of both of ours from church (W is on the Board of Directors) so I could verify that pretty easily. I do, however, agree with you on point #2 that until we get this custody settled we shouldn't be running around acting single while I'm with the kids.

I have a feeling I will be needing #4 in the future.


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## the guy

Hold the phone here...... is your wife having an affair and is board of directors for the church? No wonder she looks like hell...trying to keep her "new friend" under wraps must be trying for her!

Man, what do the folks in the chuch think about your walk away wife?


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## soca70

New friend is in Los Angeles where her corporate office is and where we relocated from to Ohio 6 years ago. She goes back to that office 4 times a year for 2 weeks and had a trip scheduled two days after D-Day. Maybe it's a friend of a friend of hers? We're both from there so who knows? Just seemed really suspicious with the timing. A date? A one-night stand? Unbelievable that I'm even considering this as I have trusted her totally for 11 years and now I'm snooping on phones,emails, etc.

I'm 99% sure nothing is going on here in Ohio but who the hell knows at this point? She was saying how sad and lonely she was at the new place working during the day with no one really to talk to. I huess that how "being true to herself" feels for now.

Only a few people at church know about this and I was thinking of scheduling a meeting with our minister to discuss. The thing is SHE DOES NOT CARE what any one thinks, etc. We just moved into this neighborhood two years ago and have really made an effort for the kids to get out and connect with people, school, neighbors (even through a block Christamas party last year) I asked if she's even concerned about this and she says "Well these things happen."


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## indiecat

She seems too calm, it's very odd. Just knowing that she can't be with her own kids full time anymore should make her very upset in itself. These are very young kids to have their mom be gone half the time. I wonder why she doesn't care about the effect it will have on them to have their worlds turned around.
I can only guess that there is a OM, maybe she has not cheated yet, but it's very odd behaviour for a mother with children this age.


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## soca70

She's an attorney and is used to working very long hours, weekends, etc where I have had the kids on my own for a long time and then I work in sales and travel for work often so we have always parented in "shifts" about equally. She thinks this 50/50 in different houses will keep the kids with us the same time and allow for her to spend more quality time with them as she can catch up on the "off" days.

My take on this is she is so unhappy in with me now that come hell or high water she's getting out the door.


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## oncehisangel

i agree with indie...

its that damn fog again


makes them all bananas


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## soca70

I was on an anger roll earlier but I need to be two-sided here. We did speak last week and she said if I remembered her sitting on our stairs 3 years ago, crying saying we were losing our connection, we might be in trouble, etc. The thing is I don't remember this at all. With two rowddy toddlers (one developing behavioral problems), working/travelling full time time, financial strain, etc, these issues did not register with me. I guess I figured it would work itself out. She told me last week that I've been unbearable for the last few years and that 18 months ago she would have tried anything to save our R but about a year ago realized I would not change and started checking out.

I think the decision to leave has been like this:

1. House in neighborhood - check
2. Kids in same school/same friends - check
3. Soca used to be stable, successful, and level-headed and now I am stable, successful and level-heaeded - check
4. No Soca *****ing, complaing, obseesively worrying about finances, kids behavior, economy, college fund, construction loan and basically bringing me down with his negative attitude - check
5. Young enough to find someone else - check

I have been angry but a lot of this anger has been directed to myself as I feel like a lot of my behavior has brought this on. My frustration is her unwillingness to work on this with me. She told me that I had really stepped up to the plate on this to save the family but it's too late. I just cannot accept this in a part of my mind. If it was just us I could but with the kids I find this heartbreaking.


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## oncehisangel

try not to beat yourself up too much - I was doing that. I had a business that was losing money everyday and became a cow to live with. I was never mean to him just around him.. just about life.

Does it mean it would be an excuse to walk from your family without trying?
i think its become a disposable world-


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## oncehisangel

how you fairing soca??? news??? you ok?


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## soca70

I met with my attorney last week and we will be filing for a LSA to address assets and the custody agreement. 50/50 is the way we will be going but we will try to get final decision-making authority for me (this will be tough but a possibility). A large part of me wants to try to use this as a way to "win" and not look like I'm rolling but I'm stepping back and considering what's fair and best for the kids.

Thursday I put myself out of contact for most of the day and we had a heated discussion about "what I was up to" regarding the custody agreement. Later that night I came into the guest bedroom and we talked for awhile. We had a "Eureka" moment when we figured out the root of her feelings of incompatibility. Basically, she doesn't like being told what to do and I like to tell other people what to do (usually in a nice polite way but nonetheless) and she's felt like I've not valued her opinions, etc throughout our R. Also, we met when she was a bit of a trainwreck and has felt like I have taken credit for her success since then and been condescending. I said I always felt like I had provided a stable foundation for her to succeed. I again said I thought these issues are workable but she said that I need to accept her decision that we need to move on. I'm starting to think this is a MLC for her (we're both 43).

One of our kids was out from school sick yesterday and I spent the day with him at home. I asked her to come over for an hour to watch him while I ran errands for an upcoming business trip on Sunday. So weird to think we will always be doing this but not a couple. She took our other son to an event at school that night and when he got home at 9:00 PM he told me he hadn't seen me all day and missed me so much. I thought how sad it's going to be for what's coming up for them.

Today she was telling me about the new appliances, furniture, etc she was having to buy and the cost and I could tell she was very stressed as she's charging all of this and will be $10K in debt by the end of the month. If she was leaving any door to this being temporary or a chance at reconciliation, I would help out any way I could but she's not and I've made it clear that I will not pay for any of this and the "stuff" is staying in this house. I also let her know that I will be taking the boys for two nights for Thanksgiving and that Friday to my sister's house for a family get-together and will be back that Saturday. A part of me feels like I'm being cold but at the same time I want her to know there are consequences to her decision. Is this the correct course of action? I don't know.

Also today she was packing for the overnight with our friends to the concert. She was asking me what I thought of the shoes she was bringing, how her hair looked like, etc and then made a sexually suggestive comment which I said I was happy to help with and she laughed and said that would be "inappropriate" now. I find this so confusing - why talk like this? I feel like I'm doing all of this wrong but it's tough when we're still living in the same house. Targeting mid-December for the offical "move out".

Spent the day with the kids going out to lunch, getting them flu shots, and dinner with my parents who said I looked really tired and worried. Leaving for a work trip tomorrow for 4 days and looking forward to a break from this.


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## oncehisangel

Is this the correct course of action? i reckon so

and then made a sexually suggestive comment which I said I was happy to help with and she laughed and said that would be "inappropriate" now. I find this so confusing - why talk like this?

cause she's a woman who needs validation she still does it for you- don't give it to her any more. shes done

be the best daddy you can be- fill up your love cup with your children  you're doing exceptionally well from my wee point of view


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## oncehisangel

ps..enjoy your break  smile at some hot chick and make her day


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## soca70

Thanks guys for the encouraging words.

If doing exceptionally well means swinging from anger to depseration on a daily basis and subsisting on caffeine, nicotine, and anti-depressants, yes I'm doing exceptionally well


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## oncehisangel

I think you're very normal mr soca- 

eat bananas and nuts if you can- i have no idea why these help- but they do


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## our vision shattered

Forever Sad said:


> Soca - I'm with you man. The feelings are normal. Try to eat, get out, anything. Easier said than done.
> 
> In my prayers and thoughts, always.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## soca70

Out on the road for work this week in NYC and enjoying (?) the break. Coctail party tonight at a swanky hotel/club that one of my customer's invited me to.

I was thinking though last night that I'm embarrassed by this situation. We just moved into this new neighborhood less than 2 years ago, built this house, really put ourselves "out there" to meet people and now we're going to have to tell the school, neighbors, etc that we've separated. I feel like a loser. I'm kind of hoping that with us living so close together that maybe I can keep this quiet? I know that's lame but maybe it's denial.

I'm working on what to tell people. "Unfortunately, we had issues we were not able to resolve" or "She left to be 'true to herself' as she was fed up with my negative outlook on life that was 'killing her soul' and wanted our 'family to take on a different form' so we destroyed the only life our children have known. Also, along the way she decided can no longer ignore the lack of physical spark between us so she's out looking for a man to make her 'eyes roll'".

I will opt for the former but the latter does have a certain appeal.

This may be self-pitying and pathetic-sounding but I'm owning it today,


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## indiecat

I don't get her at all. You never cheated on her, she had a lovely home. No doubt you would have gone to MC with her. 

She's one of these people who may have 2 or 3 marriages before she wakes up and realizes that it takes work, forgiveness, and tolerance for each other's faults to make a marriage work. 

With a 50% divorce rate you are joining a very big club, no need to feel like a loser, you weren't the one who gave up here.


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## legiox

indiecat said:


> I don't get her at all. You never cheated on her, she had a lovely home. No doubt you would have gone to MC with her.
> 
> She's one of these people who may have 2 or 3 marriages before she wakes up and realizes that it takes work, forgiveness, and tolerance for each other's faults to make a marriage work.
> 
> With a 50% divorce rate you are joining a very big club, no need to feel like a loser, you weren't the one who gave up here.


Regardless of how high divorce rate has become, I still believe i will have a stigma of "that divorced guy" attached to me for a while. I never wanted to give up on the marriage either, but i had to let her go b/c she wanted out. Like all marriages, both people have their faults, but that doesn't give you the right to just walk out on a commitment to each other


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## oncehisangel

Whats that book? The road less travelled...?

first line....

life is difficult-once you understand that-then it gets easier.

or something along those lines.

Don't worry about the tag "divorced guy".
Somewhere out there, way on down the road-you'll find the beauty again in someone and they will find it in you.

People dont' want to always try to fix what's broken-it seems easier to give up. 
That's not your fault. 
It's just the old ways.


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## soca70

Thanks indiecat for the encouragement. Yeah I don't get it either. She was walking around our $500K home and saying "all this means nothing unless there is love". 

She went to one MC session and told the counselor our goals were different as I was trying to save the marriage and she was wanting me to have help with the separation/divorce. She didn't even what to do an evaluation of is this salvageable as she's not in it anymore. No use going back so we're just doing IC.

My family seriously thought she was having some kind of psycholgical breakdown. My sister says she's out of her flippin' mind. From what I see that doesn't seem to be the case (unless you look at the big picture here).


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## soca70

BTW I'm keeping the house and she's moving into a rental duplex - maybe she can find love there. Unfortunately my kids have to be there too.


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## soca70

Went Mon and Tue without actually speaking to STBXW as I'm out of town. Just sent short text to make sure kids were OK. She sends pics of the boys on Mon and last night detailed descriptions of what they did Tue. 

Sent text today to have them call me (not her) so I could speak with them before bed. They were with neighbor and her kids on an outing as STBXW had appliance delivery to the renatl after work (ugh). Talked with the boys and one handed the phone back to her so I did talk briefly (like 30 seconds) making sure they were OK. Trying to keep the contact to a minimum which is easier when I'm not there. Thinking of extending this trip one more day. Miss the boys but feel more detached being 400 miles away so may take advantage of the feeling.


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## soca70

STBXW had texted me what time I would be back tonight and I texted 10:45 pm. I decided to extend trip one night after sending.

Received 8 texts after I checked into new hotel about how she transferred the money she took back into the joint account for me (off her cash advance) and how she's late for a client report due tomorrow and has been working on it all night and will need to get up at 5:00 AM to finish and I will need to take the boys to school, etc so she can get this in on time, etc ect. Sent a text tonight saying change of plans will be back at 1:00 PM tomorrow. 

I know she will be ballistic as she won't be able to get this done and will catch hell from her boss but it's not an "us" thing anymore as she's made very clear. My feeling is that she needs to realize the consequences of kicking me to the curb as I think I'm dealing with a cake-eating mentatlity here. Is this the right thing to do? I'm getting a kick out of it but maybe I'm being somewhat vindictive also.


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## SCsweety81

soca70 said:


> STBXW had texted me what time I would be back tonight and I texted 10:45 pm. I decided to extend trip one night after sending.
> 
> Received 8 texts after I checked into new hotel about how she transferred the money she took back into the joint account for me (off her cash advance) and how she's late for a client report due tomorrow and has been working on it all night and will need to get up at 5:00 AM to finish and I will need to take the boys to school, etc so she can get this in on time, etc ect. Sent a text tonight saying change of plans will be back at 1:00 PM tomorrow.
> 
> I know she will be ballistic as she won't be able to get this done and will catch hell from her boss but it's not an "us" thing anymore as she's made very clear. My feeling is that she needs to realize the consequences of kicking me to the curb as I think I'm dealing with a cake-eating mentatlity here. Is this the right thing to do? I'm getting a kick out of it but maybe I'm being somewhat vindictive also.


I think your extension is perfect.


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## soca70

Thnaks, SCweety! I think I'm doing this right but it's hard to tell. I know this will be thrown up in my face as being unsupportive as usual but I'm not the one who made these choices.


----------



## SCsweety81

soca70 said:


> Thnaks, SCweety! I think I'm doing this right but it's hard to tell. I know this will be thrown up in my face as being unsupportive as usual but I'm not the one who made these choices.


Who cares what she thinks?

The grass ain't always greener.


----------



## oncehisangel

how you going mr soca?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> STBXW had texted me what time I would be back tonight and I texted 10:45 pm. I decided to extend trip one night after sending.
> 
> Received 8 texts after I checked into new hotel about how she transferred the money she took back into the joint account for me (off her cash advance) and how she's late for a client report due tomorrow and has been working on it all night and will need to get up at 5:00 AM to finish and I will need to take the boys to school, etc so she can get this in on time, etc ect. Sent a text tonight saying change of plans will be back at 1:00 PM tomorrow.
> 
> I know she will be ballistic as she won't be able to get this done and will catch hell from her boss but it's not an "us" thing anymore as she's made very clear. My feeling is that she needs to realize the consequences of kicking me to the curb as I think I'm dealing with a cake-eating mentatlity here. Is this the right thing to do? I'm getting a kick out of it but maybe I'm being somewhat vindictive also.


Refusing to let someone wipe their feet on you is "vindictive"?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> New friend is in Los Angeles where her corporate office is and where we relocated from to Ohio 6 years ago. She goes back to that office 4 times a year for 2 weeks and had a trip scheduled two days after D-Day. Maybe it's a friend of a friend of hers? We're both from there so who knows? Just seemed really suspicious with the timing. A date? A one-night stand? Unbelievable that I'm even considering this as I have trusted her totally for 11 years and now I'm snooping on phones,emails, etc.
> 
> I'm 99% sure nothing is going on here in Ohio but who the hell knows at this point? She was saying how sad and lonely she was at the new place working during the day with no one really to talk to. I huess that how "being true to herself" feels for now.
> 
> Only a few people at church know about this and I was thinking of scheduling a meeting with our minister to discuss. The thing is SHE DOES NOT CARE what any one thinks, etc. We just moved into this neighborhood two years ago and have really made an effort for the kids to get out and connect with people, school, neighbors (even through a block Christamas party last year) I asked if she's even concerned about this and she says "Well these things happen."


Anymore information on posOM?


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

soca70 said:


> Thanks indiecat for the encouragement. Yeah I don't get it either. She was walking around our $500K home and saying "all this means nothing unless there is love".
> 
> She went to one MC session and told the counselor our goals were different as I was trying to save the marriage and she was wanting me to have help with the separation/divorce. She didn't even what to do an evaluation of is this salvageable as she's not in it anymore. No use going back so we're just doing IC.
> 
> My family seriously thought she was having some kind of psycholgical breakdown. My sister says she's out of her flippin' mind. From what I see that doesn't seem to be the case (unless you look at the big picture here).


No offence mate, but it doesn't take Nostradamus to figure out she has switched off to you completely and totally because she now has a new man.

"The monkey doesn't let go of one branch until is has a hold of another, otherwise it will fall"

She is completely and utterly besotted with some other man, and like the rest of us (me included) your "male blind spot" makes that difficult for you to conceive or believe.

Better wake up fast brosephina.


----------



## soca70

OK - an update.

Got back from trip and one of our kids had a stomach virus and had to stay home from school with her on Thurs. As expected, she blew her deadline at work and was in trouble from the boss. She says to me "You need to communicate better with me" which made me laugh inwardly as she's kept this checking out process to herself for a year and here we are. Thursday night, she made dinner for us and left it in the oven when she went back to work at the rental.

Friday, I kept both kids home from school as one was still recovering and the other one looked exhausted the night before and had been sick last week. I asked what time they had been getting up while I was gone (since last week they were getting up at 5:00 AM when she woke up as she can't sleep much now). She hemmed and hawed so I know they've been getting up with her. I said your schedule and actions are affecting the boys health so when are you leaving? No clear answer given but she said "I hear you".

Friday night, she's working and I have our weekly "movie night" with the boys and order in a pizza. She gets there in the middle of it and I see I have a missed call from her. I said I see you called and she said yes I was calling to see if you needed me to pick up a pizza for tonight. I said "I got it - thanks".

After the boys went to bed, she says I seem angry. I said yes I'm angry as I'm still trying to understand how a parent would walk away from their family like this and willingly cede 50% of their children's life away. She said we've hashed this out before and I was what she needed at the time when we met (as she was in a bad space) and met the criteria on paper for what she wanted in life and thought she could make her feelings grow for me over time. So we moved from one house to the next expensive house and so on, had the kids, etc but then she accepted she had "made her bed and now had to lie in it" until she realized she could not keep the truth from herself or me anymore and was unwilling to work on this anymore. 

(On a progress note, this statement didn't cause that bloom of panic in my chest like when this started but rather p****ed me off. )

She then accused me of trying to drag out the custody agreement so she would stay in hopes of her changing her mind and making this difficult (ha!). I reminded her that my lawyer had asked for certain documents two weeks ago from our files that are now in the rental that she still hasn't produced, I have seen no first draft from her attorney, and that she needs to sign a release for my attorney allowing him to represent me as he's from the firm that handles our estate and I cannot even talk with him anymore until he receives it. She said yes I will get those ASAP. As of this Monday morning, it is still sitting here on her desk.

I ended that conversation by saying "OK I need to make some decisions now". She aks what decisions nervously as she knows I'm prepared to really take her on with the custody and I just repeat "Some decisions". I'm pretty much bluffing here but let her sweat this out.

Saturday, she had the stomach virus and was home with the kids and I went over to a friend's house for the afternoon. Sunday, I took the boys to church and a birthday party and then went to my parents for dinner.

I researched that FB friend and it is an old friend of hers. Plus she's only in California 4 times a year so really what could come of something like that anyway? I've looked high and low on her computer, email accounts, etc and have found no evidence of any OM. What I do believe is she's got the idea of an OM and new life and I wouldn't be surprised if that happens within a month after she's on her own.

So the issue is how do I move this forward the best way possible for me and the kids? She won't leave until the custody agreement is in place but she can't get her act together enough because of her work schedule (please recall she is a lawyer and has to bill 9-10 hours a day which requires working like 12) to get it done. I can force it by getting her to agree to tell the kids and we can work out a temporary schedule until a formal one is finalized but she wants to take the kids over to the rental as soon as we tell them and I'm not good with that. I'm thinking I can make a big fuss about this in the family therapy session coming up and get the transition I want. On the other hand, she's the one that is so uncomfortable here now but she's still doing the cooking, etc and even self-cleaned the oven last night and it's not really phasing me any more so I'm not in a hurry. 

Bigger issue is really how to deal with her after this. My ego and pride want to show her just how difficult I can make this for her for the next 13 years as a "F You" but is that the best solution? We will have to work so closely together with the kids and I know if I'm amicable and agreeable I can pretty much have her as an "assistant" (that sounds bad but I know buttons to push too). But then I feel she "wins" with me out of the picture, kids at her convenience, etc. at the cost of our kids stability which I find hard to accept as well. Any input here would be welcome.


----------



## Conrad

The best possible way to move forward is to quit having these needy clingy "how could you" type of conversations.


----------



## soca70

Conrad - good advice. After these I always feel like "Just keep your mouth shut". On the plus side, it's been kept shut since Friday.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Conrad - good advice. After these I always feel like "Just keep your mouth shut". On the plus side, it's been kept shut since Friday.


Show us it was no accident


----------



## soca70

I am feeling better about this as that made me laugh!


----------



## soca70

Last night, the boys wanted STBXW and I to go out to a family dinner and then get ice cream. We did and they were so excited as we hadn't done anything with all 4 of us in over a month since this started. Before we left, STBXW hands me the documents my lawyer had requested (gee - thanks). Our son with behavioral issues did so well all day yesterday and at dinner. I'm so concerned for him with what's coming up.

Late last night, I got to thinking about when this bomb dropped in Sept I accepted all the blame for this because of my crappy behavior the last couple of years due to the financial/emotional stress of the last years. But then I started making a list of what her life has been like since we met and what I have been able to provide for her and our family the last 11 years:

1. A stable and secure foundation for her to become a successful attorney, a memeber of the Board of Trustees of one of the largest Methodist churches in our state, active in PTO and community activities
2. 4 houses - one totally remodelled, 2 custom-built, the last one designed to her tastes in one of the best school disticts in the state
3. 2 beautiful, healthy twin boys
4. A full-time private nanny until the boys were 3 so they didn't have to go to day care
5. The best pre-school programs available for our kids
6. A loving and supportive extended family
7. Family vacations to the Caribbean, South Carolina, California, and New England
8. Trips to Europe
9. Cruises
10. A remodelled waterfront lakehouse with dock, boats, and jetskis
11. 100% unconditional trust
12. The financial wherewithal to go and do just about anything
13. A 100% dedicated, involved, hands-on father to the kids
14. A 100% dedicated partner

As she said, "We've built the perfect life, but it's not perfect". Yes I can clearly see I have created a living hell that would "kill someone's soul" and "suck the life" out of someone.

When we met, she was days out of rehab for cocaine abuse, a casualty of the LA party scene, fired from her first job out of law school because of it, and flat broke. My friends told me to stay away but I found her so sexy, vulnerable, and full of potential and I was infatuated and head over heels. In hindsight, I probably should have listened.

OK - end needy, clingy "How could you?" rant and file it here. As Conrad advised, I'm keeping my mouth shut.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> When we met, she was days out of rehab for cocaine abuse, a casualty of the LA party scene, fired from her first job out of law school because of it, and flat broke. My friends told me to stay away but I found her so sexy, vulnerable, and full of potential and I was infatuated and head over heels. In hindsight, I probably should have listened.


I'm a rescuer, too.

Those red flags are there, for a reason.


----------



## soca70

Yeah - I ignored them at first but she quickly pulled her act together. No issues or problems - sober for 12 years now. Got the career back on track. I always looked at that as a phase of life - I was in that crowd a bit in my early 20's as a lot of people are when they move to LA so I could relate. Now she's saying I was a safe place and what she needed at the time. I'm like we're about 10 years too late for that realization.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> I'm like we're about 10 years too late for that realization.


Selfish people have no concept of reality.


----------



## soca70

So this afternoon I'm in the car, she calls and the Bluetooth kicks over before I can decline the call. Conversation is as follows:

STBXW: "What are you doing?"
Soca: "Driving to Kinko's." (since you took the copier/printer/fax machine and I haven't replaced it yet)
STBXW: "Well I have about 6 hours of work left for this document production, blah, blah, blah so can you pick up the boys after school, do dinner, baths and I will be home around 7:30 PM before their bedtime?"
Soca: "I can do that."
STBXW: "And I can take them to school tomorrow and pick them up early since I will be done with this project, blah, blah, blah. I'm heading to my therapist for my weekly ***** session - ha! ha! ha!"
Soca: "OK - bye."

I'm glad she finds her IC so amusing since she refused to go to MC. I just don't get her. She makes these grand statements "I'm done. I have to get out of here as soon as possible. I may have used you (with the best of intentions) for the last 10 years. " and then keeps chatting me up like one of her girlfriends. Is this normal? Insight would be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yeah - I ignored them at first but she quickly pulled her act together. No issues or problems - sober for 12 years now. Got the career back on track. I always looked at that as a phase of life - I was in that crowd a bit in my early 20's as a lot of people are when they move to LA so I could relate. Now she's saying I was a safe place and what she needed at the time. I'm like we're about 10 years too late for that realization.


So, you were trying to earn her love all that time.

You figured she would stay because she would appreciate all you did for her - even though she didn't ask.


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## soca70

Nail on the head with that one, Conrad. She actually became resentful of this as thought I took credit for her "turnaround" and didn't really give her any (not entirely true but there is a kernel of truth there). And yes, I thought with our history she would stay - never once questioned it (naively I see now). 

However, I thought she did ask in a way because in the beginning, she was the one that initiated our R.


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## Conrad

I submit this as firm evidence of "why" we offer the strategy we do here.

Fixing oneself with IC and a renewed zest for life

Omitting all the "victim-based" explanations of how wonderful we've been to them and how grateful they should be

Leaving the next move to them.

When they ask the question, they're ready for the answer

Likewise, when they ask for your help, they're ready to appreciate it deeply.

Anything else is salesmanship and smothering - and destined to fail.


----------



## soca70

Conrad - I agree with the IC (which I'm doing) and have needed the renewed "zest" for some time. I'm working on a plan to how to accomplish this - I became somewhat lost the last few years with the pressures of the kids, etc so this will be a time to re-discover myself. The alternative is to isolate and stagnate and that is not an option.

I didn't realize my thinking was so "victim-based" and I will need to correct that mindset. I think by becoming the best possible me will go a long way.

And yes, I am a sales executive so my natural inclination and interaction has been "selling" her throughout our R (and as you see here, failed).


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

Persuasive power is an opiate.

Males, being as competitive as they are try to win any game they're in.

Applying our persuasive power in relationships is a natural - albeit wrongheaded - step.

Do yourself a favor and forgive yourself.

You didn't know any better.

Going forward, you have no excuses


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## soca70

Yes, I didn't know any better and did the best I could at the time (or mostly). And I know I've always done the right thing for my family.

And I'm trying to balance the "need to win" with the best actions for this situation which is very difficult. We will see how this unfolds.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yes, I didn't know any better and did the best I could at the time (or mostly). And I know I've always done the right thing for my family.
> 
> And I'm trying to balance the "need to win" with the best actions for this situation which is very difficult. We will see how this unfolds.


Have we spoken of the Victim Triangle?


----------



## soca70

I've read up on this on a link I found here on TAM. It's with the Persecutor, etc and the need to get in the center, correct?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I've read up on this on a link I found here on TAM. It's with the Persecutor, etc and the need to get in the center, correct?


Yes....

Moving to the center forces prevents those seeking victim status from escalating conflict by gunnysacking and throwing in extraneous tangential issues.

You don't take the bait.

You don't engage or escalate.

Nor do you explain or attempt to persuade.


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## soca70

So how would that apply to this situation?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> So how would that apply to this situation?


_*>>I'm glad she finds her IC so amusing since she refused to go to MC. I just don't get her. She makes these grand statements "I'm done. I have to get out of here as soon as possible. I may have used you (with the best of intentions) for the last 10 years. " and then keeps chatting me up like one of her girlfriends. Is this normal? Insight would be appreciated. Thanks!<<*_

"I'm not ok with half a relationship"


----------



## soca70

Got it. Thanks, Conrad, for your insights today. I've appreciated it very much.


----------



## Ostera

the guy said:


> Hold the phone here...... is your wife having an affair and is board of directors for the church? No wonder she looks like hell...trying to keep her "new friend" under wraps must be trying for her!
> 
> Man, what do the folks in the chuch think about your walk away wife?


I have to agree with 'The Guy" on this one.. holy sh**. I would expose the hell out of that.. What her title, 'Director of Hypocrisy'?

Are one of the commandments missing on the plaque out front?


----------



## Ostera

indiecat said:


> She seems too calm, it's very odd. Just knowing that she can't be with her own kids full time anymore should make her very upset in itself. These are very young kids to have their mom be gone half the time. I wonder why she doesn't care about the effect it will have on them to have their worlds turned around.
> I can only guess that there is a OM, maybe she has not cheated yet, but it's very odd behaviour for a mother with children this age.


Sounds to me like the W has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). My wife moved out from her ex while he was at work and left their two kids behind (age 12 & 14 at the time). Says she now feels guilty but her actions never showed it.. only when she wanted to leave me. Then that was her 'excuse' to leave. Needed to rebond with kids... never happened. More like: Go to bar, flirt with men so I can keep my selfesteem up, sleep with man, don't go back to same bar incase man is there again.


----------



## Conrad

Ostera said:


> I have to agree with 'The Guy" on this one.. holy sh**. I would expose the hell out of that.. What her title, 'Director of Hypocrisy'?
> 
> Are one of the commandments missing on the plaque out front?


You guys didn't hear what Moses said when he came down from Mount Sinai?

Hey guys, the good news is I got Him down to 10!

The bad news is, he insists we keep Number Six!


----------



## soca70

Ostera-thanks for the input. That post was a few weeks ago when I was looking for a reason for this bomb drop. From what I gathered on this site and others, many times an affair is involved and I was looking high and low on her emails, her work email accounts, Iphone, wallet, FB accounts, and I thought I found something on FB. However, I was able to rule that out. I'm 99% sure nothing is going on currently or has but I think she has the idea of another life now and I wouldn't be surprised if something is up soon after we physically separate.


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## soca70

When you get an avatar, are you now officially part of the club (unfortunately)?


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> When you get an avatar, are you now officially part of the club (unfortunately)?


Your avatar definitely just made me say "awwwww", out loud. 

Cute, cute!


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## soca70

I have a small female beagle and that looks like her. She's my first child


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## soca70

I noticed today STBXW finally picked up that attorney release paperwork off her desk today. Part of me was hoping that she would just let it lie there so I won't have to move anything forward on the custody agreement (or just keep in denial). I won't mention it until she does though.

Got to thinking today about a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago at a restaurant where we had lunch after a meeting with the family therapist. 

She said "After we move through the hurt and anger of this, I really see us being good friends as there are so many qualities I like about you and I will always love you and have a special place in my heart for you since you are the father of our children." 

I was thinking "If you can make it out of here without me slapping you, you'll be lucky."

On that note, I'm taking the boys to my sister's for Thanksgiving with extended family and will not be home until Saturday. Saturday, my parents and 10 year old niece are coming over to help me and the boys decorate for Christmas (as STBXW has Sears coming over to the rental for issues with her appliances and will be out all day). She mentioned she wanted to take the Christmas trees (!) but if they are up and decorated, they'll be hard to get out the door .

She will be spending Thanksgiving with our friends and their extended family - hope she feels like a fifth wheel.

Everyone have the happiest Thanksgiving you can!!!


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## soca70

A more apropro avatar


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> A more apropro avatar


The best part of this post is the fact that you used "apropro".

:rofl:

Very nice.


----------



## soca70

OK - one major holiday down. STBXW actually showed some emotion as the boys and I were getting ready to leave for Thanksgiving at my sister's. She was teary-eyed and told the kids she had to work and wouldn't be able to come. She asked me for a hug as she was upset. Made the MISTAKE of giving her one but I was caught off-guard as this was the first time she'd reached out to me for physical contact since this started and I wanted to hold her, etc. Should have said "I'm not OK with that" but will know next time.

We left Thur morning and came home Saturday. Boys and I had a great time with the extended family. Went NC until Saturday.

Saturday I invited my parents and niece came over to help decorate for Christmas as STBXW was at the rental getting appliances repaired. All the kids had a great time and I put up four stockings front and center over the main fireplace for me, the two boys, and the dog. One of my kids asked where (STBXW's) was and I said I couldn't find it.

She started texting and calling around 5:45 PM to see if my parents had left as she wanted to come over and see the kids. I responded at 7:30 PM and told her we were back at the house. In the meantime, I posted a pic on FB of the kids trimming the tree (just to turn the knife as it were).

She shows up and doesn't say a word to me putting the kids to bed or after they were asleep. I knew she was fuming as she didn't see the kids and we had decorated everything without her. But in the words of SCSweety, "what do I care what she thinks?"

However some odd things happened. While we were gone, she totally organized the basement which had been a disaster for almost two years since we moved to this house. 

Also, I had left at 6:00 AM this morning for a work trip and she send me a text at 10:00 AM saying she had taken a picture of the boys in front of the tree this morning for our family Christmas card. WTF? She's moving out the first of January and is sending out a family Christmas card? 

I don't get this. Does anybody else have their STBX making these paradoxical actions? I'd love to know if so.


----------



## soca70

STBXW texted me that one of the kids wanted to talk with me since I'm on a work trip so I had to call and unfortunately break the NC. My one son let me know that (STBXW) had found her stocking and put it up - ha!

The weird thing is even talking briefly with her on the phone seems so NORMAL but I know it' not. Gah! I hate this.


----------



## HappyKaty

So, she's not moving out until the first of the year?


----------



## caladan

She feels guilty. It's not your business, I know, but don't think this is easy for her either. It's messed up in every way.


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## soca70

HK - we held up telling the kids because we couldn't work out the custody agreement by the 11/30 date we had originally set. Now there is Christmas and their birthday is on Jan 1 so we decided to wait (as I still haven't seen the first draft of the agreement and I know there will be back and forth).

Caladan - She says she feels absolutely no guilt about this but she looks pretty tense so I'm assuming there is some.

It's tough because I just don't see our issues being unworkable but she does.


----------



## soca70

And if she feels so guilty, why not work on this?


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> And if she feels so guilty, why not work on this?


Because she doesn't want to work on it.

She wants to explore other possibilities.

That doesn't mean she can do so without some guilt.

Who cares, though?

Let her wallow in it. 

She doesn't want you to be her supportive husband.

So, don't be.


----------



## soca70

Yeah - I got that message loud and clear (which I still find mind-boggling).

I have been as non-supportive as possible (which prompted "You're trying to make this difficult"). I haven't lifted a finger to help her with this move out, paperwork, money, incuding her for any family events, etc. My thinking is if she wants it so badly, do it herself.


----------



## caladan

Of course she feels guilty. Being the party who calls of a marriage is always difficult emotionally.

Regardless of her opinion about the marriage, you've been a part of her life for a while now, and that life is pretty much over.

For whatever reason, it's difficult, difficult knowing you've hurt someone else, whether or not you believe that's the right thing to do.


----------



## soca70

Caladan - I see your point and thanks for the response.


----------



## soca70

So today my sister calls me to let me know she let the STBXW have it via FB today. I have held my family "at bay" since September but now I really don't care anymore if they communicate their feelings to her.

She and my sister have always been close and STBXW had said how disappointed she was with my sister and her lack of support as she had divorced her husband a few years ago. My sister reminded her that she was married to a man who called her a b***h and a c**t on a daily basis and had gotten physically abusive on occasions in front of their daughter and did not equate a husband who threw a bank statement around every few months with that situation. 

She also reminded STBXW that she had recommeded 90 days of MC when she first made this announcement and STBXW had refused to go. She also reminded STBXW that when they first talked about this, STBXW had gone on and on about how she chose me as I was successful and would be a good provider for kids but had never once mentioned she loved me. She then said she didn't know what kind of scheme STBXW had cooked up to get me married and have kids but she made it very clear that STBXW was out of our family and would never be invited to any of our family events again. And then went on about how this could mess up the kids, etc and closed by saying "I hope you know what you're doing."

I actually felt really proud of my "little" sister (who's 3 years younger than me). She said STBXW needs to hear the truth and if it hurts her, who cares as she's had enough of her bulls**t.

I've been thinking today though maybe our whole marriage has been a sham and have started getting angry again. I've been on the fence on the custody agreement and the financial settlement about being "fair" vs "vindictive" and I'm leaning on the vindictive side today.


----------



## Dewayne76

I'm with ya. 

Sometimes I feel like mine was all wrong... but when I think hard about it, it wasn't. That's what sucks, at least to me. I see everyday life as she smiled with me, held my hand while driving to the store and having fun getting groceries etc. 

So much b/s. 

I couldn't imagine tho being in your situation, wondering seriously if your marriage was all a sham. Feels like it wouldn't be much different, I mean sometimes I feel this pain isn't toppable. Nothing could match it. 

Try to stay strong. I'm at another all time low myself. 

I too am at the pissed stage. again. 

Good luck.


----------



## soca70

Dewayne- thanks for the response. It never felt like one to me and I know we had good times and I never picked up on any clue in 11 years that made me think otherwise. We accomplished so much together.

To have to evaluate the motivations of someone who I considered a partner and best friend in every way is very difficult. I'm thinking that there is an in-between ground between a history re-write and what's being said.

Thanksfully, I have moved past that panicky and desperate stage.

My concerns are like yours on your last post on your thread. It's more of a fear of the future at this point.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> I've been thinking today though maybe our whole marriage has been a sham and have started getting angry again. I've been on the fence on the custody agreement and the financial settlement about being "fair" vs "vindictive" and I'm leaning on the vindictive side today.


Dear.

I doubt your whole marriage was a sham.

But, that's neither here, nor there.

In regards to custody, it's not about what's "fair" to you or your STBXW.

Be fair to the kids.

No kid deserves to be dragged into custody drama, just because their parents can't let go of their anger.

I'm not saying those are your intentions, either.

However, you know your kids will best benefit from a custody agreement that is ideal for their own needs, which is, likely, equal amounts of time with both parents.


----------



## Orpheus

Soca, you're as all-over-the-place as she is. this process is insanely difficult for all parties involved regardless of blame. Continue to hold on to the good moments and rest assured that something will derail you once again.

The more space and less Drama Triangle you feed your stbxw the sooner you'll get the result that you ultimately are looking for. Cheers.


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## spun

soca70 said:


> OK - one major holiday down. STBXW actually showed some emotion as the boys and I were getting ready to leave for Thanksgiving at my sister's. She was teary-eyed and told the kids she had to work and wouldn't be able to come. She asked me for a hug as she was upset. Made the MISTAKE of giving her one but I was caught off-guard as this was the first time she'd reached out to me for physical contact since this started and I wanted to hold her, etc. Should have said "I'm not OK with that" but will know next time.
> 
> We left Thur morning and came home Saturday. Boys and I had a great time with the extended family. Went NC until Saturday.
> 
> Saturday I invited my parents and niece came over to help decorate for Christmas as STBXW was at the rental getting appliances repaired. All the kids had a great time and I put up four stockings front and center over the main fireplace for me, the two boys, and the dog. One of my kids asked where (STBXW's) was and I said I couldn't find it.
> 
> She started texting and calling around 5:45 PM to see if my parents had left as she wanted to come over and see the kids. I responded at 7:30 PM and told her we were back at the house. In the meantime, I posted a pic on FB of the kids trimming the tree (just to turn the knife as it were).
> 
> She shows up and doesn't say a word to me putting the kids to bed or after they were asleep. I knew she was fuming as she didn't see the kids and we had decorated everything without her.  But in the words of SCSweety, "what do I care what she thinks?"
> 
> However some odd things happened. While we were gone, she totally organized the basement which had been a disaster for almost two years since we moved to this house.
> 
> Also, I had left at 6:00 AM this morning for a work trip and she send me a text at 10:00 AM saying she had taken a picture of the boys in front of the tree this morning for our family Christmas card. WTF? She's moving out the first of January and is sending out a family Christmas card?
> 
> I don't get this. Does anybody else have their STBX making these paradoxical actions? I'd love to know if so.


If she continues to "play house" then she does not have to face herself head on.

After all, she must still be wonderful if she takes the time to design and send out one last family Christmas card.


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## soca70

<<Soca, you're as all-over-the-place as she is. this process is insanely difficult for all parties involved regardless of blame. Continue to hold on to the good moments and rest assured that something will derail you once again.

The more space and less Drama Triangle you feed your stbxw the sooner you'll get the result that you ultimately are looking for. Cheers. >>

Yes Orpheus - I'm all over the place with this.

One minute, I'm worried about antagonizing her by emptying out the joint accounts, being "fair" and "nice" with the asset agreement, being "reasonable" with the custody agreement out of fear that this will ruin any chance of reconciliation if I do/say the wrong thing. Then the next minute, I remember what she's said and done, and I want to steamroll her on all this as a "F U" since she's made it clear there will be no reconciliation. Then I'm like "Well she says this now but what about two months from now and I've played my cards wrong and really shut that door?"

We're in the same house still because no one's leaving until the custody agreement is done so I have to swing between anger and calm while no one's looking. 

All I want to do is re-hash the pros and cons of our relationship and point out all the strong points and the benefits to the kids so she can SEE what a mistake this is but I keep my mouth shut instead and do the 180.

I have to keep a poker face on for the kids as they notice things are missing from our house that she's taken to the rental like the f***ing dog food container and say "Oh I don't know where that went. We'll have to look for it."

I have to eat dinner with someone who has said "I believe you were under the impression that you and the kids were a package deal", "after the kids were born, I thought I had made my bed and now had to lie in it", and "the last year, every time we had sex, I cringed." And still KNOWING I would take her back in a heartbeat if she changed her mind.

But then on the plane while travelling today, I got to thinking about paying for the kids' college and how I had worked up a plan to pay off her remaining $123,000 (!!!!) law school student loan in 10 years by the time the boys were in high school and then realized she'll never be able to pull that off without me and will stiff me with the cost of this. So again, I'm like "I'm going to nail her to the wall on the assets. F her!"

Yes, I'm all over the place. However, I guess the good news is I'm only all over the place on this TAM board trying to sort out these feelings and plan for the future. I haven't discussed any of this with her at all especially the last week where I have maybe talked with her for a total of 10 minutes. I've gone as dark as possible in the situation currently as I've been trying to move to the center of the Drama Triangle.

Thank God I have a therapy appointment tomorrow morning.


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## soca70

<<If she continues to "play house" then she does not have to face herself head on.

After all, she must still be wonderful if she takes the time to design and send out one last family Christmas card.>>

She's "playing house" to the end. Two days before the bomb dropped, she designed and finished a paver walkway in the backyard.

I think it comes from her having a people-pleasing personality. She doesn't want anyone to hate her. She was more upset by family excommunicating her for this than anything I said ("So now they think I'm Satan! I'm still the same person I've always been!")

She's always been very good at projects, responsible about thank you cards, invitations, etc but at some point I'd think a person would draw the line.


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## soca70

<<In regards to custody, it's not about what's "fair" to you or your STBXW.

Be fair to the kids.

No kid deserves to be dragged into custody drama, just because their parents can't let go of their anger.>>

HK - I would not do anything detrimental to the kids and neither would she. But apparently there is 2 parts to this custody agreement. One regarding residential custody and then a schedule that can be changed. 

I'm agreeing to 50/50 on the schedule because with my travel schedule that's what we've always been doing for the most part. However, on the residential custody conditions, I am playing hard ball on that with final decision-making authority, etc. If we include a standard forfeiture of time if one of us is unavailable, I can say 50/50 but with her mandatory 2 weeks in California for work 4 times a year, I can work it out so it's effectively 63% for me/37% for her. 

If she'd gotten licensed for the bar in this state, she could get a job here but she delayed and delayed (and yes, I was on her about this but now you see why!) and there's no way she'll be able to pull that off now being a single parent of two kids so she's stuck with her current situation. These are the things I have to consider and my mood isn't as amicable as it was at the beginning.


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## chris van

hi mi wold stop manday night when i left mi whife an 3 kids and the teers dus knot stop


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## chris van

my live stop munday wen i left my whife and 3 kids aorrie mi eng suck but ill trai to spell my teers is oll n have and kant pik mi self up from te pyn an suffirieng


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## chris van

i wahs the sty at home dad i whas ther 24\7 fo mi kids and give it all up i jus **** bee ther fo mi whife and kids if im not ther but i what to gow hom and bee ther for them


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## soca70

Chris- I am so sorry that you in this situation. I have found that there are many people here that can give good advice and support. I would suggest starting your own thread with your story and that will get you the most exposure for suggestions.


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## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> Thank God I have a therapy appointment tomorrow morning.


yes. for all of us. 

i'm going to give you advice that i didn't get here. so you likely won't hear it repeated. be fair. push to get this over quickly. act like the man you want to be 5 years from now would counsel you. don't sweat the details 10 years down the line. if you start worrying about that you're better off worrying if we're going to be buying everything in yuan or if the world will melt down in a fire. dig? stick to today and tomorrow.

you can't make reconciliation happen. all you can do is get out of your own damn way for screwing up further. i walked away from about 100k in not going for dead with my xwife. because it wasn't clean. i didn't want to fight over money for the next 3 years. it's only money. my life and my sanity were worth more than cash. and i say that on the verge of destitution. 

i am six months since separation and three months into divorce. i will likely never see or hear from her again. i still love her and i hate her. but i'm moving on.

you won't be able to escape your girl because of the child connection. but you can comport yourself in a way that doesn't lead to another decade plus of aggravation. 

there is nothing about this process that is easy or makes sense. there is no right or wrong. all there is... is what you do with it.

find some peace. at least for tonight. be well.


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## soca70

Met with therpaist this morning. On the plus side she said I looked much better and more pulled-together (last month, roadkill would have looked more pull-together than me).

She said I am expressing a lot of anger and leaning toward vindictiveness. She cautioned that vindictiveness can backfire and would not achieve the results I want. I know I will need to heed this advice.

She said I am using anger as a way to reflect the hurt I've experienced. Anger is easier for me to process and move forward with than the hurt and pain of the absolute rejection that has hit directly to my deepest insecurities. I will need to work on this.

She asked what do I want? What I want is to roll back the clock, make this all go away, and have an intact family again. Unfortunately, the reality is I will need to determine what I want moving forward because as of now I do not know.

I need to focus on the here and now. I need to pick up my kids from school. I need to take care of them this afternoon and evening. I need to work on this separation/custody agreement. I can't worry now about 10 years from now, I can't worry about dating, I can't worry about her dating, etc. I can deal with those issues when the time comes.

I'm back from my trip so I will see how this evening goes.

Thanks for the advice last night everyone.


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## Orpheus

wondering if her body will fit in your trunk is all part of the process. don't be too harsh on yourself.

the "turn back the clock" thing is the little boy in you crying out. If you're inclined towards self-help, check out a book by Wayne Levine called "Hold on to your N.U.T.S.". It's in the same vein of talking about being an adult male in modern times. Also, i consider the deMello book mandatory reading during this process whether you agree with him or not. It's perspective.

Do a little dive into my sig links and get back to me. In the meantime, sounds like you've got a good shrink. Have a great evening with the kids. Spend all that nattering energy of yours on breaking habits and creating new things. These genesis activities will give you new context.


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## soca70

Yes, Virginia, there is a family Christmas card! STBXW sent me a preview from Shutterfly this weekend that she had designed. Had all 4 of our names on it. She must be a better person than me as I would have left hers off. 

An update:

We had a family therapist appointment Friday that was originally scheduled for telling the kids this weekend but since there's been no resolution it turned into a general discussion.

STBXW accused me of being childish and uncommunicative as I do not return texts, calls, let her know my schedule or whereabouts, do not speak to her while at home, do not look at her while at home, decorated the house for Christmas without her, didn't put up her stocking, kept the boys too long over Thanksgiving, been making it impossible for her to manage her work schedule, etc. "I know he hates me now but we really have to communicate through this!" (Recall I have been doing the 180 consistently for a few weeks)

I replied that she has made choices and consequently I am no longer here to be accountable to her or to accommodate her work schedule. I reminded her any text regarding the kids I reply to immediately. Also, I let her know I am available to discussion at home but she has not initiated any. Therapist asked her if she really thought I would be up for sitting around chatting at night and she said "I would if he would." Gah!

Therapist asked about the cusotody agreement and STBXW indicated her attorney had been "non-responsive" on the draft and she had still not returned the waiver to mine. Therpaist was concerned about the tension between us for the kids and asked if we could do the separation before Christmas if we were unable to keep it cordial at home. We both assured her that in front of the kids we were fine. I reiterated however that STBXW was free to leave whenever but the kids were not leaving the house until an agreement was signed. STBXW said I was doing this so it was clear that she was the "bad guy" and the one who "left" and I said "yes". I also said that there is no way this agreement will be done in December and probably not January either. Therapist recommended just working out a schedule and getting through the holidays which we both agreed we could do.

At the end there was a few minutes left and STBXW asks if she could speak with therapist alone. I replied "No I'm not OK with that" (she can book her own appointment and pay for it if she wants to talk about me behind my back). This prompted her to storm out of the office slamming the door.

Typing this, it seems pretty calm but there was a lot of tension and heated words in the session. I know I was beyond angry and I think she's extremely frustrated that she's lost control of me and I'm not playing this the way she envisioned. Guys - is this what the 180 is supposed to do? Is it productive?

Later that night, I took the kids to dinner with my mother and STBXW texts if she needed to pick up dinner. I let her know I was with my mom and kids and she texts she'll be coming over to join us. This took major cajones as she has not seen my parents since this started and knows how they feel about her at this time. She did join us and we also went for ice cream afterwards. My mom says to me "This is the craziest thing I've seen."

Saturday and Sunday, we split the time with the kids between birthday parties, Christmas lights at the zoo, church, and service project caroling at a returment center with their scouting troop (which I'm a co-leader"). STBXW has really now gone out of the way to speak with me, let her know her plans and schedule, etc and be pleasant. (She had an IC session after our Family session so I'm sure this was how it was discussed to proceed). I will be civil but will not initiate any more than I have to as I do not want to get sucked in by this.

Moving forward, STBXW did sign the waiver and sent to my attorney so I will be doing some info-gathering while waiting for the draft and then will schedule an appointmnet probably for the week after next as I will be out of town for work next week. I may be in the running for longest in-house separation on TAM here by the end of this.


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## Orpheus

all of that looks about right, except you probably shouldn't have had her hang out with you at your parents; and the joint xmas card is way out of line. it's more appropriate to skip that family photo card this year than pretend that there is still a family. have your name removed or ask her to reprint them at your cost.

it sounds like you're trying to not be inflammatory which is the goal. don't be a jerk; just be removed.


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## soca70

Thanks, Orpheus. Actually my mom, I, and the kids were out at Panera and she came to eat with us. Christmas card let me think about. Comes in on 12/8.

OK - this may have been a rule breaker but I just got back from stopping by that rental of hers. It is just around the corner and I do want to see what kind of place it is for the kids (and also just to see what is going on if I'm truthful) and I haven't been over at all. Looks OK and she's done it up as well as she can with what she's working with.

She said "I don't want it to be like this between us. I know you are hurt and angry and hopefully you'll move past it. I was going to write a letter to you about how you may be misconstruing some of things I've said about our relationship and how you are thinking I may have had some other intent in mind." I said "OK. I don't want to talk about this now."

We did talk about how my mother is coming to a school event tomorrow and STBXW said she would come also. I told her for planning purposes, we will need to re-examine our wills as my parents are removing our kids from the inheritance in case my parents and me die in the next 25 years. The money will go to an administrator that will dispense funds for college, etc but the kids will not receive the bulk until they turn 30. Reason is that STBXW cannot access the money. This move just cut her off to a few million and she looked distressed but didn't say anything.

We went on about the December schedule, Christmas gifts, this week's plans with the kids, and what she's making for dinner over at this house at 6:00 PM. It is just surreal to me that she's making this little life 1500 yards away.

I was calm this afternoon and non-confrontational but back to the 180 again.


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## CH

Wonder if a few million $$ will suddenly make her realize she made a mistake? If so, would you still take her back?


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## soca70

CH - she must have known that was going to happen. A part of me is hoping that she snaps out of this "fog" she's in and starts facing the reality of her actions. I would love for her to say "OK I see we have some problems that we need to work on" after this all hits her like a ton of bricks. For the kids' sake, I would as no lines have been crossed that I couldn't get past. However, I don't see that happening so far.


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## CH

soca70 said:


> CH - she must have known that was going to happen. A part of me is hoping that she snaps out of this "fog" she's in and starts facing the reality of her actions. I would love for her to say "OK I see we have some problems that we need to work on" after this all hits her like a ton of bricks. For the kids' sake, I would as no lines have been crossed that I couldn't get past. However, I don't see that happening so far.


Soca, when someone wants out, they usually don't think that far.

Thus, she was surprised when you said she was out of the family when she walked out. And the Deer in headlights look when you told her she wasn't due anything from any inheritance money from your parents. 

There's only 1 thought, I want out and I'll deal with everything else later. #1 priority, get out and then once reality hits it'll either get ugly or they'll just say FU and treat you like you never existed to them.


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## soca70

<<There's only 1 thought, I want out and I'll deal with everything else later.>>

CH - this is what has happened and why we are still stuck with an in-house separation 2 months in as there was no planning on her part and I'm not facilitating anything.

<<once reality hits it'll either get ugly or they'll just say FU and treat you like you never existed to them.>>

What is the difference here?


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## Orpheus

i suspect "ugly" means engage in conflict rather than blowing you off.

and there's nothing to think about re the xmas card. unless you're trying to redefine masochism. i know, maybe you could each take family photos without the other and send them both in the same envelope... you know, save on postage n such.  that was sarcasm btw. don't be stealing my patent pending divorce-o-gram.


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## soca70

Orpheus - I'm kind of making fun of this card but at the same time, a part of me is glad that my name is on this. It's like "See - we are still a family!" and maybe subconsciously she's not done here. Of course I know this is delusional but at the same time...I will ask her to re-print these and see what happens.


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## angelpixie

Nothing like separate photo Christmas cards to announce to the family what's going on. Did that last year.  Even I'm not so frugal as to share postage with posSTBXH, however, lol. 

Yours does give a new meaning to the phrase 'Awkward Family Photo,' though, Soca.


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## soca70

Well the pics are just the kids. Maybe I can just get the ones for my family and friends and cross her name out with a pen. Would that get the message across?


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## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Well the pics are just the kids. Maybe I can just get the ones for my family and friends and cross her name out with a pen. Would that get the message across?


Most definitely. :smthumbup:


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## soca70

I was thinking about getting this card scanned and posting it here just for pure shock value. 

Funny how in the family therapy session on Fri, I mentioned this card and a WTF? to the therapist. STBXW said you asked if we were sending cards out for Christmas this year so I went ahead and designed them. I was like "For the love of Christ, I was being sarcastic!" However, this weekend she did order them. If this wasn't so painful, I'd find this comedy gold.


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## soca70

And the topper is tonight's kindergarten homework is sending in images of family holiday traditions to present in class. Should we send in the first draft of the custody agreement?


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> And the topper is tonight's kindergarten homework is sending in images of family holiday traditions to present in class. Should we send in the first draft of the custody agreement?


Baahahahaha!


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## whitehawk

Christmas is gonna be about the most depressing time of my life this year. I've got no idea how we're gonna work this one it would've only have been 2 1/2 mths.
How is it they all use the same phrase - " I'm done " even on the other side of the world . It must come from their counceler and they must all do the same f'g course all over.
Reading through this and other stuff , I think I'm piecing it together as to why my ex is so nice to me now . Maybe for her to it's something like wanting off the hook with guilt.
I'm still having a lot of trouble letting her off that one though. I still despise the way she's quit on us and our family just because the going got unpleasant while we all were trying to get for her and the family - what "she" wanted - 5 yrs of it.
Then only last night when I told her I couldn't sleep because the house is so quiet and empty now- she says , oh yeah I'd hate to live out there on my own to !!!!! Great .

Later I got that angry at that statement I sent her an agro text saying something like - 
well , living out here on my own wasn't the f'g plan was it . We bought it for our family but you couldn't hack it and so I'm f'g stuck here now like this aren't I . If it wasn't for my daughter I'd have packed and left the lot weeks ago.

Of course that would destroy my credit rating and lose every cent we'll get out of it when I sell it but - none the less that's still what I feel like doing .


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## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> And the topper is tonight's kindergarten homework is sending in images of family holiday traditions to present in class. Should we send in the first draft of the custody agreement?


Oh, Lord. 

I'm posting our last Xmas card photo in my profile. Awkward Family Photo, 1970s style (background and fading thanks to Photoshop, lol) Everyone loved our cards, we spent a lot of time designing them (the 1960s' Holiday LP version is up on my profile now -- they were actually mini record jackets with paper LPs inside with our signatures on them. Buggers to assemble, let me tell ya!)
The year we split, which was right around the holidays, STBXH's mentor in his department made the remark that our Christmas card should be verrrry interesting that year. Ha ha. We didn't do a photo one that year. Everyone in our family figured that I wasn't in the spirit because my mom had just died a few months before. No, it was also because my STBXH decided to split. )

Best revenge? DS did separate cards with STBXH and me last year, and everyone commented that I looked great and happy, and STBXH looked too thin and not very healthy.


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## Orpheus

just to clarify before i segue into the divorce tree and hiring lawyers to carol for you, i would recommend you tell your stb.. that you're uncomfortable sending out a family card all things considered and that you think it's more appropriate that she send a personal card to her friends and forgo making a difficult situation more complicated.


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## whitehawk

I have no idea how to work the card stuff or what to do Christmas day.
My ex made enough fuss for 10 couples so l usually left her to it. lf people get cards from me this yr it'd freak them out , been yrs .

Turning up alone would freak me out , it's been us 3 forever there too.

Think l'll just pass on the whole lot this yr and kick back at home with my daughter once me ex finishes whatever bs she's gonna put us all through with her new life.

How is my daughter going to have her first ever Christmas morning without me in the same house though, it's all so insane.


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## twoforwardoneback

Hi everyone  i have just joined this forum, in the fog of trying to find someone who feels the same and know that i am in some way normal. I also have days where i think 'would his body fit in the trunk of my car?' and then days when i am so damn sad that it all had to end this way.... In July we separated (after 10 years together and two kids) and on our wedding anniversary 8 weeks ago he told me this was just a time out for him and he needed a little space and maybe it would all come good again with us. Well fast forward,,, All of a sudden he has a new girlfriend and she is already living in what was, not long ago, my house, with my kids and her daughter too...  Needless to say i am hurt, angry, dissapppointed and and and and... all of which my stbxh cannot fathom. He is in love again and the world is a beautiful place. I should just get over it and think positive! In other words leave him the f*** alone...
Thankyou for all writing in this thread, you have made me feel normal again. Socas... keep your head up & don't forget to breathe! I will be following your progress and hoping that i make some too!


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## whitehawk

twoforwardoneback said:


> Hi everyone  i have just joined this forum, in the fog of trying to find someone who feels the same and know that i am in some way normal. I also have days where i think 'would his body fit in the trunk of my car?' and then days when i am so damn sad that it all had to end this way.... In July we separated (after 10 years together and two kids) and on our wedding anniversary 8 weeks ago he told me this was just a time out for him and he needed a little space and maybe it would all come good again with us. Well fast forward,,, All of a sudden he has a new girlfriend and she is already living in what was, not long ago, my house, with my kids and her daughter too...  Needless to say i am hurt, angry, dissapppointed and and and and... all of which my stbxh cannot fathom. He is in love again and the world is a beautiful place. I should just get over it and think positive! In other words leave him the f*** alone...
> Thankyou for all writing in this thread, you have made me feel normal again. Socas... keep your head up & don't forget to breathe! I will be following your progress and hoping that i make some too!


My God that's sickening , l so feel for you.
So were you the one that moved out then yea ?
What the f'k does he say to the kids to explain that mums not living here anyone here's someone else , they must be going crazy wondering wtf is going on !


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## twoforwardoneback

OH indeed... worst mistake i ever made moving out... i should have just kicked his ass out the door as he was actually the one who cheated on me (numerous times) but,, i bought into his manipulation and took the blame for his indiscretions... He only had to do that (all those times) because i made him so unhappy. He says the kids had no problem with it until i started to make a problem out of it. The fact that i am upset about it makes them upset about it. They tell me all the time that they wish i was still living with them, and my little girl (6y.o) asks me at least once a week when am i going to come back. I keep trying to tell my stbxh that it is too soon for them, they are only just getting used to the fact that i am gone. We split 50/50 parenting time so i said to him, can she not just be here when the kids are with me so that they don't have to share their house (and clothes and toys and dad!) yet with a woman and another child? (She still has her own apartment.... conveniently just next door!) His answer... it has nothing to do with me i should just butt out. I think he has lost his mind.... His new girlfriend is half his age, single mother, just immigrated here, no job, and she obviously has him fully by the balls. She say.. 'big house i want' If it wasn't so sad and painful there would be so much comedic spin i could put on it. Thank GOD for sarcasm and my ironic sense of humour. 
Her daughter calls him daddy already. After a couple of weeks!!?!? How f***ed up is that?


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## Stella Moon

twoforwardoneback said:


> OH indeed... worst mistake i ever made moving out... i should have just kicked his ass out the door as he was actually the one who cheated on me (numerous times) but,, i bought into his manipulation and took the blame for his indiscretions... He only had to do that (all those times) because i made him so unhappy. He says the kids had no problem with it until i started to make a problem out of it. The fact that i am upset about it makes them upset about it. They tell me all the time that they wish i was still living with them, and my little girl (6y.o) asks me at least once a week when am i going to come back. I keep trying to tell my stbxh that it is too soon for them, they are only just getting used to the fact that i am gone. We split 50/50 parenting time so i said to him, can she not just be here when the kids are with me so that they don't have to share their house (and clothes and toys and dad!) yet with a woman and another child? (She still has her own apartment.... conveniently just next door!) His answer... it has nothing to do with me i should just butt out. I think he has lost his mind.... His new girlfriend is half his age, single mother, just immigrated here, no job, and she obviously has him fully by the balls. She say.. 'big house i want' If it wasn't so sad and painful there would be so much comedic spin i could put on it. Thank GOD for sarcasm and my ironic sense of humour.
> Her daughter calls him daddy already. After a couple of weeks!!?!? How f***ed up is that?


pardon my being brash but this is indeed some messed up ****. I know I got some messed up **** too...but this is some mess up ****...I don't even know what to say...I'm speechless...

is it not your house too? can't you just go back in and say get the f out?? I mean if it's legally yours...I think you can indeed do this...just go in...and stay and tell her to leave...who gives a crap wtf he says...you may not be able to make him leave...but so what...he'll follow her...go get your damn house back.. or am i missing something?


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## whitehawk

twoforwardoneback said:


> OH indeed... worst mistake i ever made moving out... i should have just kicked his ass out the door as he was actually the one who cheated on me (numerous times) but,, i bought into his manipulation and took the blame for his indiscretions... He only had to do that (all those times) because i made him so unhappy. He says the kids had no problem with it until i started to make a problem out of it. The fact that i am upset about it makes them upset about it. They tell me all the time that they wish i was still living with them, and my little girl (6y.o) asks me at least once a week when am i going to come back. I keep trying to tell my stbxh that it is too soon for them, they are only just getting used to the fact that i am gone. We split 50/50 parenting time so i said to him, can she not just be here when the kids are with me so that they don't have to share their house (and clothes and toys and dad!) yet with a woman and another child? (She still has her own apartment.... conveniently just next door!) His answer... it has nothing to do with me i should just butt out. I think he has lost his mind.... His new girlfriend is half his age, single mother, just immigrated here, no job, and she obviously has him fully by the balls. She say.. 'big house i want' If it wasn't so sad and painful there would be so much comedic spin i could put on it. Thank GOD for sarcasm and my ironic sense of humour.
> Her daughter calls him daddy already. After a couple of weeks!!?!? How f***ed up is that?



BS the kids had no problem with it , what he thinks they wouldn't prefer mum and dad happy together.
Kids wouldn't know what to do with stuff like that and they'd be scared that if they rock the boat they might lose even more of their parents.
The kids thing is so hard , l just got of the phone to parent line for advice. l dunno how to say goodnight to my girl over the phone or text , it's making me throw up all the time.
Last night when l had to get off finally , she was upset but tried to be strong and said " ok dad , well guess l'll see ya round" . l had to get off while I burst into tears and didn't want her knowing. lt's the most sickening thing l've ever been through . Sooo feel for ya and pm me if you need to talk ok because I'm also having so much trouble with that side - all sides but that one well!

Anyway I'm with Stella . F"""""""K that !! Start thinking this stuff through if you can and I know how hard it will be to but , work out where your at with the house , your share whatever . l reckon if it was a two way - marriage house or whatever they call it in your world , get that f$cker back and the ***** outa there l say. And your kids , and of course they'd want you back , more than anything no matter what bs he's feeding them with her.
Hey , it'd be really hard, it'd probably be hell for awhile but you could just go home you know . 
They'd have such an impossible time living with that one especially her , hu they'll probably move out before long themselves..
But he's the one screwing round so you'd have every right , reaaally hard thing though I know.


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## twoforwardoneback

Hi guys... i think i'm going to start my own thread later today, i don't want this one becoming all about me! Then i can start from the beginning... and yes Stella... this is some messed up sh**....


----------



## whitehawk

twoforwardoneback said:


> Hi guys... i think i'm going to start my own thread later today, i don't want this one becoming all about me! Then i can start from the beginning... and yes Stella... this is some messed up sh**....



Go for it twotwo , hmm , l like that one . Anyway it'd be a great idea because you have some very heavy stuff there , you can off load it properly and people will be able to help and be there for you better.


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## soca70

<<Hi guys... i think i'm going to start my own thread later today, i don't want this one becoming all about me! Then i can start from the beginning... and yes Stella... this is some messed up sh**.... >>

Twofer- no problem! If my thread has helped you find TAM, I'm glad. You'll find lots of advice and support here.

My thoughts on your situation is that I would speak with a divorce attorney ASAP to determine what your rights are and then make decision accordingly. Keep us posted on your thread!


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## soca70

Family Holiday Traditions in the Soca70 Household Last Night!

I was kind of on a roll on the TAM website yesterday evening with the kids here and laughing at the snarky comments about the Christmas card and it carried over to the evening when STBXW got home at 6:00 PM from her "secret office" as one of my kids is calling the rental (how do they know these things as they have not laid one eye on that place?)

We had a great dinner, kids telling about the Christmas caroling at the senior center last night, she baked cookies, I did dishes. We then had to come up with what to do for the kindergarten family holiday tradition project. STBXW jokingly suggested a picture of the mantel minus her stocking (ha - good one!). We cut out pictures from magazines of cookies, toys, and she also suggested using the pic of the boys decorating the Christmas tree that I took last weekend (while we decorated without her). Which I then emailed to the kindergarten teachers who both responded they loved it.

Then we played with the boys, watched a Rudolph special,and she had me inspect her back for a possible bruise from where she bumped up against some furniture she was assembling for the rental which led to some suggestive talk. We got the boys to bed and then went to bed ourselves in our separate rooms.

We are ridiculous.

She's coming over here in 2 hours so we can sort out December's bills.


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## twoforwardoneback

Thanks Soca  i started my own  i feel like i'm in quicksand, thanks for your advice, i have done that already. The lawyer has drafted a letter to my stbx but he will wait to send it until i fire the starting gun. I have a few more questions for him so we have a appointment on the 13th. If push comes to shove he'll get served on the 14th. Scary stuff! Keep your head up...


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## soca70

STBXW just left after we discussed the bills. Basically, she's agreed to pay half of the mortgage for December and then half the school tuition and the rest of the utilities are mine. She's saying it's not fair for her to pay for the utilities as she's still living here at "my request" and she has to cover hers at the rental plus she's been buying groceries, etc for this house.

She then stated that although her lawyer advised her that she didn't have to pay on the mortgage anymore, she didn't want to "screw" me (ha!) and will pay on that until I refinance it out of her name (minus the property taxes) sometime next year.

I calmly replied (to wipe the self-righteousness off her face) that she had signed the recent refinance papers and it was still her responsibility whether she's here or not. Also, I said you can let your lawyer know I can make a few late payments on the mortgage and destroy your credit with no consequence to me as I already have the house and a new car. She said I would be doing that just to be vindictive and I said it's an option.

Also, "my request" has been to not tell the boys before Christamas or their birthday on Jan 1 and she had not left previously because of this unresolved custody issue that she has delayed on and now it was too late for this year.

I find this so maddening. She's trying to turn this back on me with "I know you're angry and you're trying to make it difficult for me." like I'm the one in the wrong and being unreasonable. I get sucked in from the normality of last night to really facing that she's done while I'm talking with her. It's such an up and down. It's such a b***ch trying to do this 180 while we are still interacting every day. And tonight, we're doing Christmas ornanment making at the school with the kids with my mother and she is STILL going. Gah!


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## angelpixie

I feel for you, soca. It is soooo easy to be sucked in when they act somewhat 'normal'. And, when you haven't had a lot of contact, it can reallly suck you in, because there's a chance you've forgotten what a monster she can be. 

Best advice I can give? If she's there tonight, don't engage her. Treat her like just another parent of another kid in the class. Kind of smile & nod. Don't talk to her about anything, unless you are directly asked a question - that should be easier since you have your mom there to interact with, along with the kids. 

Even though it's verrry tempting, I'd try to avoid things like the 'I could miss a few payments and ruin your credit' type of thing. That can come back to haunt you. Just reminding her of her responsibility due to signing the papers is enough. Let her figure out the credit rating thing herself.

And I'm not sure why her lawyer would advise her not to keep up with a mortgage that has her name on it. It would do well for her to be as cooperative with you as possible, and not to let you think she's doing you a favor as well. But that's not your problem.


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## soca70

It would do well for her to be as cooperative with you as possible, and not to let you think she's doing you a favor as well. 


OK - trying this quote thing for the first time - we'll see how it goes. 

Yes - the "generosity" being shown is what is bugging me the most here. "See how magnanimous I am with you on this". She actually said earlier, "I would take the kids full-time as I know you have a harder time with them but I don't think it would be fair to you or them." WTF? For the last two years, I have been the primary caregiver because of her work schedule. Like that's even a possibility!


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## soca70

Quote thing didn't go well I see


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## angelpixie

If you hit the 'quote' button in the bottom of the post you're quoting from (my post in this case), it will open a reply window with my message in it. You can type your reply below that. You can also edit what you're quoting by deleting some of the text, but just don't do anything to the part at the beginning and end that has the crazy brackets, post number, etc.


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## soca70

angelpixie said:


> If you hit the 'quote' button in the bottom of the post you're quoting from (my post in this case), it will open a reply window with my message in it. You can type your reply below that. You can also edit what you're quoting by deleting some of the text, but just don't do anything to the part at the beginning and end that has the crazy brackets, post number, etc.


Let's see if this works. I love how my time is now spent on things like this when two months ago it was trying to get an end-of-season deal on a sprinkler system.


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## soca70

Ahh success - thanks so much, Angel!


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## soca70

So I stopped by STBXW's rental on Tue coming back from the gym as I know the sight of my sweaty body brings out an animalistic passion in her (check earlier posts to verify non-accuracy of that statement) and to apologize for the credit threat I made.

She was appreciative of the apology and wanted to talk about R and how she's been working with her therapist as she's been so upset that everyone now thinks she's "run a scam" on me and no one she speaks with understands why she's made this decision except her 3-time married mother and one flaky friend in Los Angeles.

Snippets of this conversation include:

"My therapist said I lacked insight into the feelings needed for a long-term relationship" (Mind you we've been married 11 years)

"When we had the kids, I thought we'd be together forever"

"Why would I move to your home state and away from all of my family and friends, if I didn't love you and try to make this work?"

"It's not been just the past 3 years of your behavior"

"I loved you and will always love you"

I responded "You are saying two different things here and I have no idea what you are really saying." 

At this point we had to leave to get ready for ornament making with PTO at the kids' school with my mother. My mom said watching her go on and on with the other parents, accepting an invitation to a neighbor's Xmas party on 12/14, and commnenting how much she loved our new house wanted to make her slap her.

Yesterday, we removed each other as beneficiaries of our life insurance policies and then she comes home and makes dinner and strightens out the pantry from where i bought groceries that afternoon.

This is the craziest situation I have ever been involved in.


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## angelpixie

Oh, dude. I feel for you. She is all over the place. I'm glad that it sounds like she has a therapist that isn't just telling her that whatever she does is fine. I wish more were like that.


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## soca70

Oh I think her therapist is kind of telling her this is all OK. She had an appt today at 10:00 AM. This is why I find this so frustrating - I don't think our R is unworkable and she does. I guess I don't find her reasons valid "enough" to break apart a family.

Positive (?) though is I had a day of "Health and Beauty" yeterday. Dentist, gym, tanning, and a haircut. My dentist said I have gingivtis brought on by stress and will need gum therapy to get it under control.

My future Match.com profile:

DWM, 43, 5"11", 170, br/bl seeking LTR. Interests include reading, hiking, travel, negotiating custody agreements and tending to inflamed gums.


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## angelpixie

I'd PM you! 

That is the biggest thing we all have to get over -- that *we* didn't think that what was going on was irreparable. Many of us here would have chosen to do whatever possible to try fixing the relationship before it ended up in D. STBXH (STBXD?  ) always told me he felt that way, too -- until he didn't. Then nothing I could say or do would convince him. We just have to go forward knowing that we were never given the chance to explore all possible options, and we _have_ to let that go. The "Why's" and "Why not's" are killers for people who work through problems as part of their personalities. I've been through a hell of a lot worse in my life than what we dealt with in our marriage. But _he_ hadn't, and he's not a fighter. So, a relationship is only as strong as the 'weakest link.'


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## soca70

And now I just receive an email about school with "Are you doing OK today?" Must be the haircut.


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## angelpixie

And the tanning.


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## soca70

And my hip and ironic sense of humor.

Zoom teeth whitening is up next after she moves out. I will look like Chuck Woolery by the time this is done.


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## angelpixie

Ha! Looking for a Loooooove Connection. :rofl:


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## soca70

Last night, I took the kids to dinner while STBXW was Christmas shopping and got a haircut. My one boy, R___, had been missing STBXW during dinner and saying how much he wanted to see her as he hadn't all day (she left for the "secret office" before they got up for school).

As I pull in the driveway, they see she's not there and R___ starts crying because he can see she's not home. My other boy, S___, says "She stays away now because she hates us. She hates me, R___, and Dadda." I said no she doesn't hate you. And he says' "Yes she hates us because why would she always leave us?"

(Mind you S___ is my son with behavioral and self-esteem problems that can barely pull it together on a good day.)

I put the kids to bed and she gets home about 9:30. I debated telling her what the boys said but then decide to. And she DOWNPLAYS it. "Oh S___ is always saying those kind of things. When you are on work trips, they ask why do you have to go so much? I 'll talk to them." 

Although I wanted to yell the point home, I calmly said "No this is different beacuse they know I'm working and they now know you are CHOOSING to remove yourself. I thought you may want to know. This has always been my concern." and then I left the guest bedroom.

This, my friends, is what I have been trying to so much to avoid. I'm a grown man who didn't get together with STBXW until I was 31 and have been around the block a time or two in relationships and could handle this OK if it were just between me and her. But doing this to 5 year old children, I find totally unacceptable.

I think I'm fueled by rage at this point.


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## Orpheus

use the rage to move ahead. but, learn the difference between Feelings and Emotions.


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## Stella Moon

soca70 said:


> Oh I think her therapist is kind of telling her this is all OK. She had an appt today at 10:00 AM. This is why I find this so frustrating - I don't think our R is unworkable and she does. I guess I don't find her reasons valid "enough" to break apart a family.
> 
> Positive (?) though is I had a day of "Health and Beauty" yeterday. Dentist, gym, tanning, and a haircut. My dentist said I have gingivtis brought on by stress and will need *gum therap*y to get it under control.
> 
> My future Match.com profile:
> 
> DWM, 43, 5"11", 170, br/bl seeking LTR. Interests include reading, hiking, travel, negotiating custody agreements and tending to inflamed gums.


funny since all this crap has been going on my gums have been moody... what is 'gum therapy'??? what do you have to do?


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## soca70

Stella Moon said:


> funny since all this crap has been going on my gums have been moody... what is 'gum therapy'??? what do you have to do?


I have to go back for an extensive under the gumline cleaning in 2 weeks.


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## soca70

Orpheus said:


> use the rage to move ahead. but, learn the difference between Feelings and Emotions.


Orpheus - not sure what that means?:scratchhead:


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## HappyKaty

She doesn't have a care in the world, other than herself.

She's showing you who she is, darling.

Believe her.


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## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> She doesn't have a care in the world, other than herself.
> 
> She's showing you who she is, darling.
> 
> Believe her.


Katy - I know and I cannot tell you how shocking this to me and my family is as it's so contrary to who we've always known her to be. When they say these WAS want out and dismiss everything else, they're not lying!


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## Ostera

twoforwardoneback said:


> Hi everyone  i have just joined this forum, in the fog of trying to find someone who feels the same and know that i am in some way normal. I also have days where i think 'would his body fit in the trunk of my car?' and then days when i am so damn sad that it all had to end this way.... In July we separated (after 10 years together and two kids) and on our wedding anniversary 8 weeks ago he told me this was just a time out for him and he needed a little space and maybe it would all come good again with us. Well fast forward,,, All of a sudden he has a new girlfriend and she is already living in what was, not long ago, my house, with my kids and her daughter too...  Needless to say i am hurt, angry, dissapppointed and and and and... all of which my stbxh cannot fathom. He is in love again and the world is a beautiful place. I should just get over it and think positive! In other words leave him the f*** alone...
> Thankyou for all writing in this thread, you have made me feel normal again. Socas... keep your head up & don't forget to breathe! I will be following your progress and hoping that i make some too!


My wife left (again) 2 months ago.. immediately hit the bar scene with her daughter. Don't know how many guys she did. But found out yesterday she went back to ONE of her XH who she left 4 times on and cheated.. serial cheater all the way.


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## Orpheus

you handled that situation well. and added that you were really angry. it's great to let that anger help you separate and distance from her shell game.

children have feelings. adults have emotions. continue to keep an eye on that rage and move forward like you're rocking it.


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## soca70

Got it. I am remaining calm now when we have discussions as I know that showing anger/disgust/etc is not going to help anything at this point and also turns it back on her to deal with (I think).


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Katy - I know and I cannot tell you how shocking this to me and my family is as it's so contrary to who we've always known her to be. When they say these WAS want out and dismiss everything else, they're not lying!


Let the shock sink in until you really see it for what it is.

I'm telling you this, because once you realize your own self-worth and learn to love Soca, she's going to pull out all the stops to pull you back in as plan B.

Remember this woman.

The one from last night.

THAT is who she is.


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## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> she's going to pull out all the stops to pull you back in as plan B.


I don't think I'm plan Z at this point but you're right I need to remember this.


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> I don't think I'm plan Z at this point but you're right I need to remember this.


It doesn't matter what letter in the alphabet you are, because you're not 'A'.


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## soca70

Yes and neither really are the kids. She's her own Plan A,


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## soca70

Katy - it's interesting that my mother has been able to nail all this down and what she's really doing just on my relaying these convserations to her. But I find it hard to really see this for what it is. I'm assuming the emotions/feelings cloud the judgment somewhat. 

I've been working really hard to keep at 50,000 feet or like a chess game here but I tell you it's tricky.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Katy - it's interesting that my mother has been able to nail all this down and what she's really doing just on my relaying these convserations to her. But I find it hard to really see this for what it is. I'm assuming the emotions/feelings cloud the judgment somewhat.
> 
> I've been working really hard to keep at 50,000 feet or like a chess game here but I tell you it's tricky.


Please believe...

I know.

Pretend I was telling you this exact story, verbatim, about my marriage.

What, dear Soca, would you tell Katy?


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## soca70

Katy - he obviously wants out and you need to let him go. You will need to figure out the custody agreement for the best benefit of the kids and the asset situation so you don't get screwed. Obviously, getting out of your marriage is his main motivation at this point.


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## soca70

If you had told me a month ago, that two guys from NYC and Missouri and 3 women from South Carolina, Oregon, and Australia would be my closest confidantes in guiding me through this, I'd have said you were crazy.

Thanks so much for the support and advice! I appreciate it very much!


----------



## Orpheus

a billion years ago, probably on my own thread (now deleted), i had a discussion with 'pixie about how the world aims you at a committed relationship but doesn't give you tools with how to deal with it. it also does a really sh!tty job of telling you how immensely horrible the mental and chemical fallout of the dissolution of that relationship might be. relationship and social education really should be a mandatory part of education.


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> a billion years ago, probably on my own thread (now deleted), i had a discussion with 'pixie about how the world aims you at a committed relationship but doesn't give you tools with how to deal with it. it also does a really sh!tty job of telling you how immensely horrible the mental and chemical fallout of the dissolution of that relationship might be. relationship and social education really should be a mandatory part of education.


I agree. I have to tell you this has made me re-evaluate marriage as an institution.


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> I agree. I have to tell you this has made me re-evaluate marriage as an institution.


I still believe in the institution.

Just not the assh*le with whom I entered into it.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Just read your whole thread soca........wow, just wow. I feel bad for you and the kids. Your wife seems messed up! Good luck and stay the course.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> I agree. I have to tell you this has made me re-evaluate marriage as an institution.


As Groucho Marx said:
Marriage is a wonderful institution...but who wants to live in an institution?


----------



## soca70

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> Just read your whole thread soca........wow, just wow. I feel bad for you and the kids. Your wife seems messed up! Good luck and stay the course.


Why - thanks for taking the time to read this and offer your support.


----------



## soca70

So I just called STBXW to ask her to pick up the boys from school as I have a plumber coming over and I can't.

She says she talked to them about what they said last night and assured them that she would never leave them. I felt like shouting BUT YOU ARE ABOUT TO WALK OUT ON 50% OF THEIR LIVES! IF THAT'S NOT LEAVING - WHAT IS!? but I didn't.

Please someone let me know if she just does not get it or am I misintepreting this?


----------



## angelpixie

It's the crap they tell themselves to justify what they're doing, soca. Think of all the catch phrases you hear: "Kids are resilient." "It's better to have kids in two happy homes than one unhappy one." Etc., ad nauseum.

None of them ever say things like : "It's better to have kids in ONE happy home, so let's work on providing that for them."


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> So I just called STBXW to ask her to pick up the boys from school as I have a plumber coming over and I can't.
> 
> She says she talked to them about what they said last night and assured them that she would never leave them. I felt like shouting BUT YOU ARE ABOUT TO WALK OUT ON 50% OF THEIR LIVES! IF THAT'S NOT LEAVING - WHAT IS!? but I didn't.
> 
> Please someone let me know if she just does not get it or am I misintepreting this?


Don't interpret anything, dear.

It. Does. Not. Matter.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> It's the crap they tell themselves to justify what they're doing, soca. Think of all the catch phrases you hear: "Kids are resilient." "It's better to have kids in two happy homes than one unhappy one." Etc., ad nauseum.
> 
> None of them ever say things like : "It's better to have kids in ONE happy home, so let's work on providing that for them."


I've heard it all - they are delusional, right? It's not me, is it?


----------



## Orpheus

HappyKaty said:


> Don't interpret anything, dear.
> 
> It. Does. Not. Matter.



^ This is almost the answer to everything here.


----------



## soca70

Just remembered I had not taken my Lexapro today as I'm starting to get those panicky feelings so just took it.

Jesus - what a f*****g nightmare this is.


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## NoWhere

soca70 said:


> Jesus - what a f*****g nightmare this is.


 The worst there is. A broken heart is not easily mended.


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## soca70

Thanks, Nowhere. And up next at the soca70 household is Family Movie Night in about one hour. The kids love it though.


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## NoWhere

soca70 said:


> Thanks, Nowhere. And up next at the soca70 household is Family Movie Night in about one hour. The kids love it though.


 With your STBX ?


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Thanks, Nowhere. And up next at the soca70 household is Family Movie Night in about one hour. The kids love it though.


What you guys gonna watch?

I'm having a sleepover with my mini-bff, tomorrow, and we're watching Brave.


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## soca70

NoWhere said:


> With your STBX ?


Yes. As still live together. She just works out of her rental aprtment during the day.

Ahh everyone's home now! I'm getting a big hug now:smthumbup:


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## NoWhere

soca70 said:


> Yes. As still live together. She just works out of her rental aprtment during the day.
> 
> Ahh everyone's home now! I'm getting a big hug now:smthumbup:


 Well I will pray for you. That has to be tough trying to live normally with her while all of this is going on. Ughh.


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## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Thanks, Nowhere. And up next at the soca70 household is Family Movie Night in about one hour. The kids love it though.


Sounds like a DeMello #3


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## HappyKaty

How ya doin', hon?


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## soca70

Katy - thanks for asking. I'm in balmy South Dakota for a sales meeting at my corporate office for a few days then on to Pittsburgh.

Received the first draft of the custody agreement Saturday. Last night, STBXW and I were discussing it which led to a heated discussion at first then some rational (?) talk.

Basically, she said I was obviously angry and hurt and going out of my way to make things difficult and to "get back at her" which I agreed I was doing as I am finding it very hard to be agreeable. I said I was torn between cooperating fully and making her life a living hell for what she's put me through and I haven't decided which way I'm going to procced yet. She did a chronology year by year of our R and whether that year was a good one or a bad one ending basically with I blew it the last 3 years. Rehash, etc.

Interesting question was "Would you want me to stay knowing how I feel now?" which I answered "Not as is but if we worked together, etc, blah, blah" which was shot down so I asked "why ask these questions then?" Another good one was "What do you want?" I answered I really don't know now as I can't see how this is going to work moving forward.

I admit you are right, Katy. She is over, done, put a fork in it,and I have to accept this. So hard for me to let go though. I think so much of this is fear. Fear of the future, fear of not finding someone else, fear for the kids. I have to decide how to play this as she will make this very amicable if I go with it. Just doesn't seem fair to me though - a large part wants me to "punish" her for this somehow.


----------



## HappyKaty

She's playing the blame game?

Cool.

I'm sorry if you've told me before, but I don't remember.

Are you in counseling?


----------



## soca70

Yes I'm in IC but my therpaist cancelled my appointment last week due to a death in her family (the nerve!) and I'm travelling this week but I have two sessions scheduled for next week with our family therapist (me alone) and my IC.

Yes the blame game. And to hear it, it's been pretty much me apparently (which I have taken repsonsibility and apologized for the actions of the last 3 years). But those actions didn't arise in a vacuum which I have also made clear but funny how that doesn't resonate as much. Or how the underpinning "I lacked the insight of what feelings were needed toi sustain a long-term relationship" kind of overrides my behavior in my book.

Truthfully, if I knew I could find someone else in say 6 months I'd cut bait ASAP as I'm pretty much over this BS. However, the uncertainty keeping me holding on I think.


----------



## angelpixie

But she's not really giving you any choice in the matter, Soca. There is really no uncertainty left where she and this relationship are concerned. Whether or not you find someone in 6 months (or ever, for that matter) has nothing to do with her and your relationship with her. They're not connected.


----------



## HappyKaty

You already know its not about "someone else".

You wouldn't even have those thoughts if you were happy with yourself.

I can tell you how wonderful you are, just like anyone else can, but it won't amount to anything until YOU know it.

You've allowed her to tear down your self-worth, and it's up to you to rebuild it.

But, Soca, you've got this.

I believe in you.


----------



## lostinspaces

soca70 said:


> Truthfully, if I knew I could find someone else in say 6 months I'd cut bait ASAP as I'm pretty much over this BS. However, the uncertainty keeping me holding on I think.


I'm with you here. If I were given the opportunity to R I think I'd still struggle with it even though I know it wouldn't be a good decision for me (a great one for her though ).

Angel is right though ... She didn't leave you with much choice.


----------



## soca70

lostinspaces said:


> Angel is right though ... She didn't leave you with much choice.


Yes which I said she backed me into a corner on this one which is why I've been so angry about this.

But it is what it is so I need to deal with this as well as possible. 

It's tough and I think LIS has some of the same issues. When you haven't been on a date in 12 years, your self-esteem is not the highest, etc., the thought of starting over again is daunting. Plus the insecurities of if she is dating like "What does he have that I don't", etc. Well these are the things I need to work on and I gues awareness is the start of the solution.


----------



## twoforwardoneback

OH Soca so much of what you said rings true with me... That uncertainty and fear of being alone... So so so awful feeling like that. 
I feel that way ALOT, but in the words of my wise wise eight year old son (said to me while i was putting him to bed not long ago) 'put those creases on your forehead away, you don't need to worry so much. The world is big and life is very long' 
I don't know where in the world he got that from but he is so absolutely right. We have no concept of just how much good stuff can come into our lives when we make space for it by cleaning away the crap.
Stay strong


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Read your entire thread tonight. 3:49am here on the east Coast.

Thought I would offer you some encouragement.

Your wife is selfish. You cannot "win" with her being selfish.

You have every right to be vindictive. But all it will do is cause both of you to hate each other.

So I am going to give you some advice from 50,000ft.

*Let her go!*

If you really love her then let her go. Because why on earth would you want to be with a selfish person like her that no longer wants to be with you????

Think about it.

As hard as it is because you see her hurting your family that you swore to protect, just let her go.

The sooner you do and get your heart and mind settled that she is gone, then only at that moment in time can you be at peace with yourself.

And Soca, do you honestly believe that a guy who has a nice home, makes a few bucks and has his act together will not find a good, attractive woman out there??? Especially with those pearly whites you will soon be showing off.....

So do yourself a favor.

Right after New Years, as a family sit the boys down and let her tell them.

Give her what she wants.

And you move on without her. Go out, make new friends. Date some women. Find out what is out there.

And make sure she sees how great you are doing. If you have to, you fake it till you make it.

I do not think you will have to fake it at all.

I am pasting this phrase for you. I honestly think your wife is living this motto (she does not realize that only she can make herself happy)but it should be your new mantra.



> Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you. If someone wants you in their life, they'll make room for you. You shouldn't have to fight for a spot. Never ever insist yourself on someone who continuously over looks your worth.


So get going. Kiss her goodbye. You cannot reason with selfish. Go find someone new to make you happy. Just make sure she is a few years younger than your STBXW. A salesman like you can pull that off with his eyes closed.

That will just drive her crazy.:scratchhead:

HM64

PS
Your Mom is very wise. Mothers see through all the BS. Value her advice. Trust her judgement. But remember the decision is always yours.......


----------



## lostinspaces

Soca - right there with you on the dating and questioning self esteem ... It's been 12 years for me too. One day I feel like a good looking guy and the next, like a troll.

HM is right. You've got to move forward. Life will take you where it wants you to go and you can either go kicking and screaming or with dignity and grace.


----------



## angelpixie

Women feel the same way you do about dating, guys (and about dating guys, lol). Been about 12 years for me, too. Haven't been all that impressed with my options so far. It really bothered me a lot when I was first on my own. But for the last couple of months, I haven't even worried about dating. I pulled the profiles down that I had on a couple of online sites because I never checked them. 

What I realized is: before I can be comfortable with dating and possibly being in another relationship, I have to be comfortable being by myself. I have to be comfortable doing things for myself, spending time alone, and being _happy_ doing it, or I will find myself in the same situation I was in: looking to another person to 'complete me.' That's not what a healthy relationship is. It's not two half-people becoming one whole person together. It's about two whole, complete people getting together to create something totally new. 

So, yeah, sometimes, I do get lonely and worried that I will never have anyone in my life again, but...all I have to do is think back to not that long ago, and just how horrible it was to live with someone who didn't really love and respect me. That makes it easier to hold out for something good.


----------



## soca70

HM, LIS, Angel - thanks for the support and encouragement. I really appreciate it.


----------



## soca70

And twofer!


----------



## lostinspaces

Well said angel. I wonder if some people can ever be a whole person by themselves though. I mean we all have our quirks and I'd bet that a pretty common one is the need for the "other half"


----------



## soca70

lostinspaces said:


> Life will take you where it wants you to go and you can either go kicking and screaming or with dignity and grace.


LIS - I'm using this as the basis of my decisions and actions from now on. It really resonated with me today.


----------



## Orpheus

lostinspaces said:


> I wonder if some people can ever be a whole person by themselves though. I mean we all have our quirks and I'd bet that a pretty common one is the need for the "other half"


Sort of makes them pre-dependent right? Get to know yourself - it's worth the effort. It's all you ever know.


----------



## lostinspaces

I guess it does. I do truly believe that knowing yourself is recognizing some things that others consider flaws (and very well may be) may not be changeable. 

Soca - every now and then I stumble into a gem like that. It's one of the benefits of being a failed writer.


----------



## soca70

Just received a call from one of our neighbor friends inviting me to lunch next week to discuss her process of divorce and offer support as she heard from STBXW what's gping on. I found this very encouarging as we socialize a lot with her and her husband and kids so I may not be the "pariah" I thought I might be.

For those who trudge through this thread, you may ask "Why can't soca and his STBXW pull it together for the custody agreement and get this thing moving?" 

Well, there's a layer of complexity to this. The boys are biologically mine but not hers. STBXW could not produce viable eggs so we went through 3 rounds of IVF using an anonymous egg donor and my sperm so the kids are not "technically" hers. I had the boys and me legally DNA tested last week to confirm this in case of an off-chance and received the results back Wed. This is why she is not leaving physically until we come to an agreement as the this is a "gray area" according to the laws in this state.

I have discussed this previously with my attorney and now have all the documentation to come up with a custody strategy. What I am going for is final authority on any joint decisions that can't be resolved and she is not agreeing to this.

I'm wondering if the lack of a biological tie is making this an easier decision to break apart the family. Previously, I have never thought this way but now have had to reassess. It's also the main reason I'm so angry about this as we didn't just "happen" to have kids but deliberately planned and created a family. My thinking is any issues we have between us should take second place to our commitment to the kids.

I will be scheduling today for the attorney appointment next week.


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> "Why can't soca and his STBXW pull it together for the custody agreement and get this thing moving?"


The only thing that surprises me after 5 mos on this board is that people expect things to be consistent or clear during this thresher. 

Best of luck with your neighborly rehabilitation, imagined or otherwise.


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> Best of luck with your neighborly rehabilitation, imagined or otherwise.


Thanks, Orpheus. I hope it's not imagined!


----------



## Ostera

soca70 said:


> I agree. I have to tell you this has made me re-evaluate marriage as an institution.


Unfortunately in todays society and with the dynamics in play, I currently think 'forever' in a marriage is doomed. It is almost impossible to met every expectation of the spouse. 

Marriage today is almost like buying shoes. You try them on and they feel pretty comfortable. Yet is a few weeks you decide you don't really like them, so you throw them in the back of the closet and go buy a different pair.


----------



## Ostera

lostinspaces said:


> Well said angel. I wonder if some people can ever be a whole person by themselves though. I mean we all have our quirks and I'd bet that a pretty common one is the need for the "other half"


It's the need to know someone 'wants' you. Loving yourself is one thing. Being loved by someone else is what fills in the last piece of the puzzle.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Very interesting about the kids and that does add a layer of complexity.

Why would she fight custody if she did not care about keeping your family together?

I see those two issues contrary to each other......

Did your wife carry the boys to full term?

And just the fact she could not conceive could really be a blow to her self esteem.

Sad how this is turning out though.

God luck with the neighbor.

And buddy your wife is horribly lost. And she does not want you holding the compass anymore.

Bummer for you Soca.

HM64


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Why would she fight custody if she did not care about keeping your family together?
> 
> I see those two issues contrary to each other......
> 
> Did your wife carry the boys to full term?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HM64


HM - thanks for the response. She said to me earlier "I want our family to take on a different form" meaning without me in the picture as much as possible I'm assuming. She knows 50% is the most she can get here. With how we had kids, I never once thought we'd be here. It angers me so much and I have to deal with her every day still.

Boys came at 34 1/2 weeks so they were a little early but are fine which is a blessing.

I'm having some difficulty with everything this evening but have to get reaady for a neighbor's Christmas party while the kids have an event at school (I just took them to dinner). I'm letting neighbors know STBXW is "working" and won't be able to attend.


----------



## lostinspaces

It gets easier when you can stop hiding or explaining what happened to people. Since I moved I can go an hour or two without thinking about her while I'm at work.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> HM - thanks for the response. She said to me earlier "I want our family to take on a different form" meaning without me in the picture as much as possible I'm assuming. She knows 50% is the most she can get here. With how we had kids, I never once thought we'd be here. It angers me so much and I have to deal with her every day still.
> 
> Boys came at 34 1/2 weeks so they were a little early but are fine which is a blessing.
> 
> I'm having some difficulty with everything this evening but have to get reaady for a neighbor's Christmas party while the kids have an event at school (I just took them to dinner). I'm letting neighbors know STBXW is "working" and won't be able to attend.


Soca



> She said to me earlier "I want our family to take on a different form" meaning without me in the picture as much as possible I'm assuming.


Are you sure there is no one else involved? becaue if she is motivated to D you and pushing this new "form" pf family she is one selfish person and very mixed up.

Also, why do you cover for her and lie to the neighbors? Your wife told a good friend that she moved out, why are you making excuses for her?

Do not be embarrassed by her actions. The sooner you deal with it the sooner the burden will lift from your shoulders.

I know this is tough going through this, especially during the holidays.

Patience Soca. 

Enjoy the time with the kids.

Deal with the problem on Monday......

HM64


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## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure there is no one else involved? becaue if she is motivated to D you and pushing this new "form" pf family she is one selfish person and very mixed up.
> 
> 
> HM64


HM - reading this forum initially made me seriously consider that possibility. I went through all her email accounts (even ones I didn't know she used) as I had her password/account sheet, phone records, etc, high and low, and found nothing. I still search her overnight bag, etc occasionally after she goes to bed. This past week, I went through her briefcase and notebooks and found a phone number with directions. Turned out to be the Sears Appliance Outlet. Before I called the number, I was shaking and my heart was beating so hard I thought I might be giving myself a heart attack. I can't keep doing this at this point. Any time she goes out, it's verified to me by somebody else like "Oh I saw STBXW at the get-together last night, etc" and everything checks out.

When we had the "talk", she said she would rather be alone than live and be with me anymore so I'm taking that at face value. 

I think she had been thinking about this for a year or so and we had a very heated argument on a Friday at the end of September over (get this) re-seeding the lawn. Sunday, she drops this on me. I think that was the "breaking point" for her.

My STBXMIL wrote my mother a letter this week saying how we will need to coorperate as an entire family to keep all grandparents involved in milestones, etc. My mom and I decided she sounded pretty worried about getting cut off from the boys. As she should be. 

One of mine and STBXW's big issues has always been how her parents in California have visited us here in Ohio maybe 3 times in 6 years but STBXW has been determined that our kids have a relationship with them which entailed dragging the four of us out there at least twice a year. We had another big argument in September over her insisting we go to this family Thanksgiving event in CA which would have cost us $4000 for four days and I was pretty set against it. 

One of the issues was her parents choose to go on cruises, etc rather than come here and I have been resentful about the cost and effort to coordinate 4 of us to see them. Mind you, the STBXFIL has 2 adult children he has not spoken to in 15 years. And all four us went to Los Angeles for 2 weeks this past April and in-laws saw one of the kids for a total of one and a half hours.

So I'm looking at this like now kids will maybe see STBXW parents maybe 10-12 times over the next 12 years (If STBXW can afford airfare for 3 each year - she'll charge it I guess) while they see mine at least once a week. I can't see much of a relationship ever really contiuning. And also with the DNA tests, I really don't care as I do not consider them part of that family now any way. (Which sounds awful but almost all of them are a mess).

Yesterday, was my day with the boys but STBXW was having to drop something over to the house. Boys made a special effort to get dressed nicely so when she was here I suggested we all go to lunch which we did. Then one wanted to go to Target as STBXW had promised to buy him a new pair of shoes so she took him. She said to me though "I've got things to do like install blinds and this is your day." I was like look they want to see you so you can choose accordingly.

Later that afternoon, she told me she was going to a Christmas comedy show last night with one of our friends who we ususally go see that with. I said "No. I'm not OK with that. I'm not staying at home with the kids while you go out. As long as you live here, you will be home with the kids at night." She was angry and said "You can't tell me what to do" but did agree to be back from her rental at bedtime. Boys and I had movie night and we both put them to bed. She retreated to the playroom for the rest of the night and told me as I was getting ready for bed that she wasn't ignoring me but didn't feel emotionally well.

This morning, they are at church and have activities planned for the day.

Hope everyone on TAM is doing OK today.


----------



## LoveDr

Sorry to here that. In relationships energy is given off between 2 people. In most cases over time that energy is decreased. Considering you have been with her for a 11 years this is probably the cause of it. My best advice would be to let her go. If its meant to be, she will return.


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## happyman64

:iagree:

And I agree. I think I said it earlier she is not going to ever love you or appreciate you until you are gone and quite possibly moved on in life.

I'm sure her drug addiction was all about her.

Then having kids was a new event full of drama.

And now her new single life is her next drama filled event. And you get to watch it play out.

Stop watching. Stop playing. Get your D worked out. 

She needs to feel consequences for her selfish actions. So "Let Her Go".

You are no longer her knight in shining armor because she has fired you Soca.

And as much as this hurts you I think in a year you will be in a much better place in life.

HM64


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## soca70

Happy Horrordays (TM Orpheus) to Everyone at TAM from the Soca70s!


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## soca70

On a positive note, my IC today said I was doing well and had certainly educated myself on the divorce process. I told her I had definitely educated myself on all sorts of things the last couple of months . I also referred her to the TAM website as a resource.


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## HappyKaty

Your babies are precious, Soca!


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## angelpixie

Love the pic, Soca!! Thanks for sharing. The holiday horror is definitely lessened by your little sweeties.


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## soca70

Thanks, Angel! I told you guys I'd post the infamous Christmas card on here. I let it go because the boys look so cute!


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## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Thanks, Angel! I told you guys I'd post the infamous Christmas card on here. I let it go because the boys look so cute!


They do look cute. They are yours Soca. Remember that.

Have a great Xmas with them.


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## soca70

Well the s**t hit the fan last night. STBXW and I ended up talking pretty openly and I saw the real person for the first time in a long time and I thought maybe I could reach her about this if I could just reason this out (and with the sad realization I haven't let go of her at all).

I let her know I had an appointment with my lawyer this Thur and I asked if she still wanted to move this forward which unfortunately led into a rehash and the "you'll never understand how I feel" and then on to discussion of the custody agreement.

She asked what changes I wanted on the agreement draft and I was non-specific saying that there were points I needed to discuss with my attorney which I did not agree with. Which led to her to start hounding me about details. I finally let her know that I wanted final decision-making authority for issues we could not agree upon. She got angry and was asking on what grounds. I replied that the family therapist did not see this as unreasonable based on her destabilizing actions of the last 90 days to our family and her not thinking this through on long-term implications. She started to get very angry at this point and I added plus the fact that I confirmed with the DNA testing that I was the sole biological parent and I had to protect the boys as she has proved when the going gets tough, she gets going. I said "you'll never understand how I feel about what you are planning to do to the boys".

This resulted in a "That is unforgivable and I hate you right now, you p****K!" and storming off crying. I felt terrible for about 5 minutes but then had to tell myself that I am NOT the one that put this in motion, I am NOT the one unwilling to work on our marriage, I am NOT the one walking out on 50% of my kids lives, I am NOT the one risking their well-being, I am NOT the one breaking our family apart.

This morning she didn't speak much to me and left right before 8:00 AM for a appointment she made late last night (which I'm assuming is either her lawyer or the IC).

I'm frustrated with myself as I was planning to hold off on all this until after I met with the lawyer and Xmas but I couldn't hold it back. I'm feeling like I kind of screwed this one up.


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## happyman64

I would not say you screwed up. You told the truth.

And you know what Soca? You are right. She is the one walking away from you, the marriage and in some capacity the boys.

It sucks for all of you but it is the truth.

I still say you have to let her go.

She is no good to you or your marriage. I know it is not what you want but you cannot force her to stay.

Do not let her rewrite the marriage. Do not let her tell convenient lies to family or friends.

The sooner she faces the consequences the quicker reality will hit her in the @ss.

And she needs a taste of reality.

And remember, aside from legal issues you can be cordial and a good parent.

You need to move on to. 

And I think in a year you will see life very differently.

In fact I am sure you both will see life very differently.

HM64


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## angelpixie

I know you wish you'd been able to see your lawyer first, but I agree with Happy -- the truth would have come out some time.


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## soca70

HM/Angel-

Thanks for the input. Yes, all my cards are on the table at this point.

I feel pretty emotionally and physically spent today. I will see how the lawyer's appt goes tomorrow.


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## Orpheus

good luck with the lawyer. remember that they work for you. ask questions and push back.


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## angelpixie

Soca- So how did the lawyer appointment go?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soca70

Angel- thanks for asking. We walked through the first draft of the custody agreement and what I wanted. I realized that we will need to arrange equally 50/50. Everything we have planned, how we interact/do things with the kids, what we have taught them, has always been equal, equal, equal. I have school placement custody and there are some tweaks but we should be able to hammer this out soon. I realized my need to "control" the kids is not going to fly if it went to court but school placement would prevent her from moving back to CA with them. All subject to change if circumstances change and the court can be petitioned.

We backburnered any D process with custody and the assests being done first and D to be addressed later. STBXW and I finalized a verbal agreement this week on assets and my lawyer will draw that up.

After my meeting, I asked her to come over so we can discuss details/changes. She's agreeable to most. Also, she's willing to be extremely flexible with the schedules due to my travel and also since the boys enjoy time with all 4 of us together. We will all be living within walking distance and the boys are used to us parenting in "shifts" anyway. I think we can work this out so we can really minimize the impact on them. (For now anyway. Of course I worry baout 5 years from now but I can't focus on that at present).

We then discussed (again) the R and it really boils down that I have not made her feel "good" about herself any more and she began crying. I was thinking later last night, that the reality is she is a good person, an excellent parent, very considerate and thoughtful to others, has great qualities. The last 5 years our life exploded into chaos and I expected her to make order of that since she was "at home" and I overlooked/underappreciated the fact that she has her own pressures from working full-time, etc. She's a very sensitive, non-confrontational person with self-esteem issues and I'm a steamroller. Apparently, our connection was not strong enough to bridge these issues.

I've wanted to villify her as the "bad guy" since she made a unilateral decision on this but I do see where she is coming from. Our situation is maybe different from others here as we didn't have the affairs, the lying, the substance abuse, etc. I realize I've got to move this forward quickly as much as I do not want to before we hurt each other any further. Who knows how she or I will feel 6 months from now? I can't control that.

So I should have the revisions back from my lawyer end of next week or begnining of the week after.

We spent the morning together as one son had a presentation for his kindergarten class and we both volunteered to help with his class Christamas party. We are going back this afternoon to volunteer for our other son's party.


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## angelpixie

Sounds like you are handling this about as well as you can, Soca. I won't comment on your paragraph on vilifying her (unless you want me to, but I think you've heard that from everyone else here). It is great that for now you are both trying to minimize the impact on the boys. I still don't think she really knows the damage she's causing, but at this point fighting with her about that isn't solving anything.

I hope you and the boys will have a great Christmas in spite of all of this.


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## happyman64

While I agree with Angel about your wife not considering the damage I also feel she needs the separation because she is damaged.

I also think she needs to live on her own. Feel the day to day stresses and eal with them on her own without the help of the "steamroller".

ANd you are right not to villify her. She needs to go out and make her own choices, mistakes and feel those consequences for herself.

The key is for you to step up and take care of yourself and the boys.

Because no matter how she feels about to you, your marriage or the family; she is the one that has walked out the door.

And it is her decision to D you as well.

I think you are using your head SOCA.

In time you will find out if she has used hers.....

Hm64


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## soca70

Thanks, Angel and HM, for the input.

Interesting change here today since I made this decision to "let this go" yesterday. We spent the morning together in one son's class and she invited me to get together for lunch before our other son's party and go together to the school. I steered clear of any R talk, kept it light, etc. On the way back to her rental, she said today was great and the most fun she's had since this happened. I said, "You know we are capable of that" and just dropped it and she said to come over later to use the fax machine for my expense report.

HM - you're right on this. She needs to be on her own and make decisions and come to her own conclusions. What that entails, I don't know but I'm not going to be able to use my "sheer will" to make anything happen. And maybe I won't want to later on.

Angel - I don't know if she's the damage or just unwilling to acknowledge it. She knows we work very well togther as parents but I don't know if that's enough for her.

I need to keep the boys' best interest in mind and mine next. Being amiable and upbeat about this feels better than beating my head against a wall.

Hopefully, I will still have this feeling tomorrow.


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## happyman64

> I need to keep the boys' best interest in mind and mine next. Being amiable and upbeat about this feels better than beating my head against a wall.


And keeping this attitude will be best for you, your kids and your family.

It is a state of mind. Keep working at it. And fake it till you make it.

Your wife might come to her senses in time, she might not.

The key is to live your life and live it well.

And in time you will find someone better tHan her. It will not be too hard.

But remember this, You are not her Plan B! So don't wait around.

Get the D. Love your kids. Heal your heart. And live your life.


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## ReGroup

Agree w/ HM64 - Positive thinking, lead to a positive approach, which in turn lead to positive outcomes. You got this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soca70

RG/HM - thanks for the input and encouragement! I was just thinking last night I'm going to fake this til I make this! It's tough but LostInSPaces told me a while ago I can do this kicking and screaming or with dignity and grace and that is so true. (not easy but true)

Going up to may parents to wrap presents for the boys today and bring the "Santa" ones home as well. Last night, STBXW and I worked out all the logistics on this and we're doing it all together except for a family Christmas Eve with my sister/niece during that day but will do church as a family for Eve services and Xmas day as the boys would want that. STBXW even asked if I wanted to invite my parents over for Xmas day dinner (not sure about that because that has the potential to go south pretty fast). 

So everyone's happy as pie right now. Faking it til we make it!


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## happyman64

Good Plan Soca.

While I am in church this week I will be sending your family some prayers pal.

While my prayer will include your wife coming to her senses, I will also ask God to send you a sign that this Divorce has so little to do with you and if he could give her a good kick in the butt to please do so!!! 
:lol:

And to be honest, Xmas dinner with all your family sounds good.

You are going to need your whole family during this breakup.

Might as well start now.

HM64


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## soca70

Thanks, HM, for the kind words!

I have the boys today and will be taking them to church here this morning. We're both good with the plans for the next few days so no drama there.

Take care of your self and have a good holiday!


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## oncehisangel

God Bless Soca to you and your boys this Christmas.

I'll add you to my prayers as well 

Look out for you ok.


love and peace


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## HappyKaty

Merry Christmas, Soca!


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## angelpixie

Merry Christmas to you and your boys, Soca.


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## soca70

Hopefully everyone made it OK through Xmas and possibly even enjoyed it as much as possible.

We got thru Christmas fine. We did a my side of the family event (minus STBXW) on Christmas Eve, went to church where she met us, and went back home together to get the boys ready for Santa's arrival. Only 1 relationship discussion which ended with me saying "I am amazed at how 100% checked out you are but we'll work this together for the kids". 

Christmas Day went fine with presents in the morning, late lunch, and we took the boys to a movie that afternoon (Life of Pi which I recommend in 3D). Spent last night putting together electronics together after kids went to bed.

I'm off this week as are the kids and we've been sleeted/snowed in all day. STBXW came over for lunch and will be back for dinner.

I am calling another divorce attorney on a referral for a second opinion just to cover all bases.


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## happyman64

Good update Soca.

A second opinion is not a bad idea.

Did your wife respond to your "checked out" comment?

And when you see her like that your only option is to give her what she wants.

Though I wonder what she really wants from this divorce or expects to find?

I'm sure you ask yourself the same thing.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Good update Soca.
> 
> A second opinion is not a bad idea.
> 
> Did your wife respond to your "checked out" comment?
> 
> And when you see her like that your only option is to give her what she wants.
> 
> Though I wonder what she really wants from this divorce or expects to find?
> 
> I'm sure you ask yourself the same thing.


What she has told me what she expects is peace and tranquility. No longer living with me or being in a marital relationship but co-parenting as close friends. 

She's convinced this is the best solution for her, me, and the boys. Keeps re-stating everyone will be fine. I asked her if she would feel any responsibility if the kids are not "fine" and she said no and if they are not, we will get them into therapy but focusing on negative outcomes like I do will result in issues. (this coming from someone who refused MC but will put 6 year olds in counselling). 

I do not feel that our kids are particulary "resilient" and to me seem pretty vulnerable. One is very sensitive and has some social anxiety and the other one has behavioral issues that require a lot of management (he's diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder) and is already in therapy.

I think I've moved past the anger phase and just now feel drained by all this. I'm on a new anti-depressant and sometimes I feel like I don't give a f**k anymore - can't summon the anger to motivate.

I've been very amicable as I stated earlier and she did notice that I've become reasonable. I let her know to not mistake reasonableness with agreement with this but I do enjoy getting along better. We have a whole day of birthday party activities planned tomorrow for the boys with their friends and we've been more relaxed with each other.

I just told our housekeeper/babysitter of 4 years this afternoon and she was floored - never saw this one coming. I said neither did I.


----------



## happyman64

The whole thing seems weird Soca. And you are right. Her reasoning for her, you and the boys does not make any sense.

When I look at your timeline, does it seem to you like everything is moving fast, meaning she has an agenda with a goal at the end?

I will say this.

You will be fine. You will find someone else. So will the boys.
and when the three of you have new woman in your lives, I wonder how she is going to feel then?

And not to knock your wife but even though she pushed or the kids, do you get a sense of detachment from her that she truly feels they are not hers? I am not saying that to be mean but I cannot understand a woman who wanted them so bad, went and found an egg donor to turning around in 6 years and breaking up the family.

Weird, weird, weird. She does not love you enough to want stay married and work on the marriage??? But she loves you enough to move real close and be best of friends with you.

My suggestion....

Go find a real woman who knows who the hell she is. Then fall in love with her.

And I know you still love your wife Soca.

Is the babysitter single???lol. 

Make it a better 2013 for you.


----------



## soca70

Yes it is weird - my parents/sister don't get it. This is why they really thought there might be a psychological issue. So out of character plus the history.

The new consensus is she is overwhelmed by all the responsibility of working full-time (all the time/weekends) as an attorney plus high-maintenance kids plus a husband who travels 40-50% of the time. I know she's complained about this for a few years and we've tried to find solutions to cut back the load but with the houses, etc we needed the income when she went back full-time to work 3 years ago (which has coincided with her extreme dissatiscation). By pinning this on our relationship, she gets me out of the way, kids only half-time which allows for her work to become more manageable and every other weekend free. And having me close by and on good terms, allows for flexibility with access to the kids and built-in support. I've also thought about that biological tie. She denies, denies, denies all this and says it's just me that's the issue but I'm not sure. I brought up again her going part-time but she says that's not it.

I let her know this weekend that there is a job in Boston that's available with former co-workers that I could get easily. She said well if it makes sense for your career she would be willing to move (but not together).

It is weird - and maddening. I made an appointment with our minister next week to discuss this. Plus IC and a lawyer appt.

Babysitter is 10 years older and a grandmother but divorced


----------



## happyman64

I really think your wife is pinning her entire unhappiness on you.

I also think she is in for a rude awakening when you guys really separate/divorce. 

Because there is a good chance her unhappiness does not go away.

Selfish. Selfish. Selfish.

As much as this hurts you Soca. Do not let it stop you.

If the job in Boston is your future and will allow you to provide more for your boys then take it.

Soon it will be time to focus on your self. Soon.

Make 2013 a great year no matter what happens in your marriage.

And remember, you can only control you......

HM64


----------



## soca70

Thanks, HM, for the input.

An update as I've not had much downtime the last few days. 

Our boys turned 6 today so we spent the Saturday at an indoor water park for their birthday where they each could take one friend and then back to our house to play. So 7 hours with 4 kids and the STBXW. Went fine. 

NYE we both got invited to our best couple friend's house with the kids for a dinner party. We bot agreed we could handle it. I believe she did better than I did once we got there because it was only 3 other couples and a divorced friend of ours. I realized I'm going to have to fight to keep our friends for me as she was really turning on the charm and working it. In fact, it was making me pretty angry but I didn't show it. Earlier in the day she said to me that I really need to reach out now to our friends more. Great - now I'm competing for friends. Boys made it to midnight though. Host made some comment to me like "Now that you're single..." and later to STBXW joking about something to her like "You'll have a date in no time" - ugh...

This morning, one boy was not happy at all with the presents STBXW had bought for his birthday and really expressed his displeasure with her which ruined the "moment" for her. I scolded him for hurting her feelings but I'm getting a sense of how this they are going to be once she leaves and it won't be pleasant. I think she felt it too.

Another family outing later in the day to Chuck E Cheeses which went well. However the strain of doing all this "family time" together with her is wearing on me.

Yes HM, soon I will need to start working on me but I still feel in the "limbo" here. I have an IC appt tomorrow as well as meeting with our minister to let him know what's going on. She's on the the Board of Trustees and all these committees so I'm interested in hearing his reaction. Second opinion lawyer appt on Thursday.

Hope everyone's 2013 is off to a better start!


----------



## soca70

So STBXW tells me tonight that she's tired of dragging this out and wants to tell the kids this Saturday. I said no since I do not have the revisions yet from my attorney on the custody agreement.

Well I'm so sorry this is "tiring" to her and I gave her the clear heads up that it was very unlikely this agreement would be finalized in January due to the delays with the holidays. JHC - she's an attorney so she should know how slow this stuff is.

And I refuse to let my kids out the door without this finalized which I stated and she quasi-threatened to take them without my consent - which would be a big no-no for me. I have a meeting tomorrow with a different attorney for a second opinion on this agreement. Should have better direction after that.


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## HappyKaty

Is she the one that keeps initiating these "family outings" and such?


----------



## happyman64

Stick to your guns Soca.

Man she is in a rush. Sorry she is under such pressure. Not!

It will be interesting to find out why she was in such a rush.

And personally, I hate attorneys.

Not all but most. God help our country. Attorneys


----------



## soca70

Guys thanks for the input.

We've agreed on the family outings for the kids' with the holidays and birthdays so they've been somewhat requisite. I don't anticipate many more.

It seems like a rush but for her she's been thinking about this for over a year and D-day was 9/27 so she's ready to execute her plan. Unfortunately for her, I have not been very cooperative especially with the kids. 

I think she's ready for me to sign that agreement so she can move on out of limbo for her also. At this point she's paying for an apartment/utilities/etct that's used only during the day and half this mortgage and she racked up $12K on the credit card.

My IC told me today that we were doing remarkably well (in the 90% percentile) for couples in this situation. Of course, she indiacted that me being able to "speak clearly" was part of the criteria so it sounds like a pretty low bar.

Also, STBXW asked me to close the joint bank account because it had overdrafted a few times in the last months and she was concerned about hurting her credit. Which made me recall that when we first met, her credit was so bad she couldn't even get a checking account and was paying bills with money orders. Missed that red flag!


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## happyman64

Soca

You are a good guy. Too good! Too nice!

The red flag was drug use.

You were her knight in shining armor. You cleaned her up, supported her and got her ready to fly on her own.

Of course she forgot to tell you about the flying part.

It came after marriage, the house with the picket fence, kids (major expense there). You think she has her priorities out of order or what?

I am not raining on your parade. I just want to make sure you realize what she is really doing.

I want you to realize just how selfish she is being.

Time will tell. 

Keep moving forward. You future is actually looking brighter than hers. Both of you just dont know it yet.

HM64


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## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> You are a good guy. Too good! Too nice!
> 
> The red flag was drug use.
> 
> You were her knight in shining armor. You cleaned her up, supported her and got her ready to fly on her own.
> 
> Of course she forgot to tell you about the flying part.
> 
> It came after marriage, the house with the picket fence, kids (major expense there). You think she has her priorities out of order or what?
> 
> I am not raining on your parade. I just want to make sure you realize what she is really doing.
> 
> I want you to realize just how selfish she is being.
> 
> Time will tell.
> 
> Keep moving forward. You future is actually looking brighter than hers. Both of you just dont know it yet.
> 
> HM64


HM - thanks for the encouragement. My mom has been very perceptive about this and said the same as you have. She's also said to be wary about her promises about being flexible with the kids, supportive after the separation, etc as she says until she hooks up with someone else and all 3 of you are dropped like a hot potato.

I had a candid conversation with our minister this afternoon and I realized that not many people take kindly to parents walking out on their families unless under dire circumstances.

Tomorrow's meeting will dictate how the rest of this progresses I think.


----------



## happyman64

Your Mom is a wise woman Soca. I agree with her.

I also think you are going to be the main parent.

I am very good at predicting the future.

Yours is bright. 

Just take care of yourself and the boys. In time you will heal.

Then life will get interesting again.

HM64


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## VFW

Anger is one of the phases of grieving and is perfectly normal. However, you need a little separation now that the holidays is over to kind of calm things down a little. In the long run, you will become indifferent to her and her actions. You do need to be civil in your dealings with her for the boys sake, but you don't need to be friends.


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## soca70

VFW said:


> Anger is one of the phases of grieving and is perfectly normal. However, you need a little separation now that the holidays is over to kind of calm things down a little. In the long run, you will become indifferent to her and her actions. You do need to be civil in your dealings with her for the boys sake, but you don't need to be friends.


VFW - thanks for the advice. A few weeks ago, I made a conscious decision not to be angry and change my interactions to cordial and amicable. At this point, we have been getting along well for the holidays/birthdays for the kids. My IC says this bodes well for our parenting.

Regarding the custody agreement, I have made it very clear to her from the beginning that I will not agree to having the kids move out with her until this is finalized and submitted to the court. My first priority is their well-being and I do not want some ad hoc plan in place that later changes and confuses them. I also do not want a precendent that is set that may come back to bite me later. 

If this requires a longer lead time on the front-end, I'm OK with it. I'm not uncomforatble with the current living situation.


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## HappyKaty

I know you've told us before, but what is the proposed custody agreement?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soca70

Katy - what's proposed is 50/50 with joint decision making authority. I would prefer the boys spend the majority of the time in the primary residence (mine) and retaining final decision making authority. My current lawyer doesn't see this as possible so I'm getting a second opinion today. If this lawyer agrees with my current one, I will move this forward with the current one . However, if she sees an opportunity to make it happen, I will then make a decision on how to proceed.


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## Orpheus

good luck.


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## soca70

Orpheus said:


> good luck.


Thanks. My impression is that this firm plays more "hard ball" so I'm interested in hearing what that entails.


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## Orpheus

that's what you want. generally. otherwise all you'd need is a mediator.


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## soca70

OK - the meeting with these lawyers went well as we were all on the same page here. I have the leverage here in this state as the laws are pretty clear that DNA ties trump everything else mostly and I am the sole biological parent. Which the attorney advised to use this window of us getting along to finalize this agreement accordingly to what I want and ensure the best co-parenting relationship.

Looks like I will be requiring a relocation clause that if I move, the boys automatically come with me with STBXW to have an option to move as well, mandatory sobriety, make-up time for a missed schedule due to work, mandatory contribution to a 529 college fund, splitting activity/education fees, etc etc. Basically, very tight language that would protect me in the future if current circumstances change that would be upfront and extremely difficult to challenge in court later as it has been negotiated in advance.

The attorney also indicated that we could use the threat of the "nuclear option" of full custody to get this settled quickly (but to do so in a diplomatic way).

When I got home, STBXW told me she'd been up since 4:00 AM with anxiety about all these "secret meetings" I've been having and that I've been up to something. I cordially let her know that I would be changing legal representation from our estate firm to a new firm and would provide her the contact information for her attorney with the goal of having this agreement signed and sent to the court before I leave for a trade show in Miami on Feb 4.

STBXW balked at the idea of another month. She stated again she would like to implement the schedule before then and I advised her that these lawyers were adamantly against the kids leaving the house until this was signed and if she took them without my consent prior to this I did have a recourse that would involve the school. I said she's the only one uncomfortable now and we wouldn't want to do anything that would involve the school and upsetting the boys.

This led to a quick retreat to the bathroom for her and numerous calls to probably her IC and lawyer in the upstairs playroom.

Later tonight, she asked if I could stay at my parents over MLK weekend 1/18 so her mother could come in from CA for the boys b-day. I said she was free to come but I was not leaving the house this month (which nixed that idea).

My mother came over for dinner with my 10-year old niece as niece wanted to see the boys. I had to let STBXW know she was not invited so she ran errands. My mom and I talked for awhile about this and she kept reminding me that she has done this to herself, these are not my actions or my idea, and any reasonable person would do what they needed to do to protect themselves and their kids. 

Tomorrow, I will be doing the legwork to switch these attorneys.


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## happyman64

Good update. It sounds like these attorney know the ropes for your situation.

And I understand your wife being upset.

Did she really think it was going to be easy walking out the door with your current situation as it is?

I am glad she is not my lawyer.

Patience Soca.


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## soca70

happyman64 said:


> And I understand your wife being upset.
> 
> Did she really think it was going to be easy walking out the door with your current situation as it is?


She told me earlier that the way I was being with the kids had caught her by surprise. I told her did she really expect that I would just step aside and let her waltz them out the door? She KNOWS me better than that. I believe it was some Pollyanna thinking when she made this decision. And as this has progressed with her actions and statements , I've become more resolute about this.


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## happyman64

Good for you, stay resolute.

Your wife is not all there at this time.


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## soca70

Took the boys this afternoon to my sister's house in a nearby city and out for a little birthday party dinner with her family and my parents. Had a nice time. 

Before I left STBXW was saying she had all this time to fill today and not sure what to do - possibly an AA meeting at 9:00 PM which her IC has suggested since she's going to be pretty isolated soonb. I suggested working on her rental - she said no rush now. I texted her to let her know we'd be at home at 8:00 and she replied she was going to an 8:15 movie. Boys were asking where she was when got home and I said a movie and put them to bed - god she sucks.

Finally had my lunch today with my neighbor who also goes to our church. Lasted 2 hours and it was good to hear an objective voice. She said we all looked like he!! at Christmas Eve services. Another interesting thing she said was that our best friend couple was really reaming her out about not working on our marriage in front of a couple of people at church several weeks ago. She said STBXW was turning very red and looked about to cry. Said it was very awkward.

Neighbor also said like with her divorce I will be the better off on the other end than STBXW as she will realize how much she is really losing. I asked her what STBXW had said when she told her we were separating and she said not much just she was unhappy and she was done. Neighbor didn't have much sympathy there for someone with a family just not willing to try and for workable reasons. Now she wants to start matchmaking for me - I said not yet .

Neighbor related her divorce story. Divorced after 6 months right after sending out the thank you notes for the gifts as she found out her husband had been having an affair the whole time they were engaged, got married, and still going on afterwards. Who are these people????

Pretty busy day with work (yes I still do) plus these other activities so no chance to switch attorneys but will do so Monday morning.


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## lee101981

It is nice that you have someone to talk to ... You are such a good dad, you need to just keep doing what you are doing...you and the kids......


Keep up the good work....


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## soca70

Thanks, Lee! My focus has slowly shifted to just me and the kids now.

Yes I'm lucky to have friends and family to talk with. This was my first conversation about this with a "real person" outside of my closest friends and it felt OK. I have been very hesitant to discuss with people. That's why this forum has been such a help to me.


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## Orpheus

find more real life people. everybody's been through relationship problems. sometimes you'll be surprised what you get back.


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## lee101981

I would like to talk about it without crying....


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## soca70

Well it's taken me 3 months to get here. I think I will be OK discussing this from now on. I met this week with our minister also. I just could not admit to people what was going on - it's been a combination of desperation, anger, sadness, and embarrassment. My friend today told me that she could barely leave her house for a month after hers.


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## lee101981

I am trying!!!!!!!!


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## soca70

Lee - your posts do sound better to me so I'm hopeful that you are progressing


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## happyman64

Soca

You have no reason to be embarrassed.

Your wife gave up not you.

When one spouse is leaving the marriage, family and your life without even trying they leave you no choice but to move on in life without them.

It is selfish. There is no other word for it.

And when I see what you have given her and what she accepted that is a tough pill to swallow when she will not work on the issues with you.

That is why I tell you that you have very little to do with her issues.....

She is a walk away wife. She is just doing it openly. It does not hurt you or your boys any less.

And you still do not know her real reason or reasons why she is divorcing you. You might not ever know. I wonder if she truly knows why she is divorcing you.

And that is why you will be better off in a short time frame without her.

Because she will be lost while you still have direction.

May your 2nd partner be better than your first!

A very worthy goal when left with no choices Soca.

After the divorce take the time to heal. Reinforce with your boys that you love hem and will never leave them. You will have plenty of time for your friends matchmaking and match.com. Lol.

HM64


----------



## lee101981

soca70 said:


> Lee - your posts do sound better to me so I'm hopeful that you are progressing


One day at a time!!! I am really trying!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

Spent the day with family time with STBXW, me, and the kids for lunch/ice cream/Lego-building/movie night.

STBXW told me that she was very emotionally tired today because of her concerns with what I'm up to with the custody agreement. I asked her if all the hurt and pain this is causing is worth it to her and she said yes. Which led into a discussion of our separation and how "everyone" she talks to has agreed how unreasonable I have been about everything. She said I know what you want and it is not an option anymore. She specifically indicated the first 3 years since the boys were born when I "checked out" for a time and how non-supported and non-loved she felt. I said we made some big mistakes regarding her work schedule, my travel schedule, and financial strain and to realize that the first 5 years after kids are born is the hradest, etc.

I agreed it's not what I want but my actions have been to keep a two-parent family for our boys. Since she's made that not an option, I now have to do the best for me and them. I told her that from the beginning I have been very clear against shuffling them around from house to house and want them to have a stable primary residence. This led to her getting emotional about me "trying to take the kids from her". This discussion was interrupted by kids needing dinner and then movie, baths, bed and she went to bed also so the continutaion is postponed until tomorrow.

I'm thinking what are my real concerns here and came up with three.

1. Primary residence and not shuffling the kids from house to house
2. Losing school placement status if I relocate for work
3. Having my kids potentially raised in a step-parent relationship

For #3, we made a decision to have kids based on us being the parents. I did not sign up for someone else to be involved. Some of these situations are OK, but I've seen plenty that aren't. And this concern is starting to come to the forefront for me. 

I will be discussing with STBXW tomorrow on how to best address these concerns. My new attorneys are confident I have the leverage here but I'd prefer we come to a solution ourselves without the court. However, I'm not really seeing the middle ground.


----------



## happyman64

Wow

She is mad at you from three to six years ago.

Protect your boys. Be as amicable as you can.

Not a darn thing you can do about step parents in the future.

Go find a mature woman. One that communicates with you when she is not happy instead of harboring resentment for years, acting as if nothing is wrong, nothing to work on with the marriage then wants to bail as fast as possible.

You will be fine Soca. You will not single for long. And you know who the heck you are.

HM64


----------



## soca70

Sometimes I re-read my posts and I feel I'm being a hard-nosed d**k about this. But then I also get to thinking I was not given a chance to weigh the pros and cons of my marriage and decide that giving away 50% of my kids' lives was worth it. Because now I feel that that's what is being taken from me without my consent or input. Maybe I'm wrong here but I feel very strongly about this.


----------



## happyman64

You should feel that way.

But you are not selfish.

You are not the one running away from the issues.

She is.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Onethat communicates with you when she is not happy instead of harboring resentment for years, acting as if nothing is wrong, nothing to work on with the marriage then wants to bail as fast as possible.
> 
> 
> HM64


Yes we discussed that tonight and about our upbringing. She said that she has always been very non-confrontational due to how her step-father (my FIL) had been because he allowed no dissension, etc growing up. And my family is pretty quick to get argumentative but lets it blow over quickly. So we have me getting argumentative but not really thinking anything of it later and her silent and resentful but me not knowing. Which she has said is the root of the issue and which she is no longer willing to work on anymore (or give us a chance to address together). Fixable, fixable, fixable but not now.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Wow
> 
> 
> 
> Not a darn thing you can do about step parents in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> HM64


Well if they are with me the majority of the time, I can control who I'm involved with and to what extent. Not so sure now on the 50/50.


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> Well if they are with me the majority of the time, I can control who I'm involved with and to what extent. Not so sure now on the 50/50.


Why exactly do you not want to share 50/50 custody with the kids?


----------



## soca70

Up - it's a complicated issue which I detailed earlier but our twin boys are biologically mine and not hers due to IVF.


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## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> Up - it's a complicated issue which I detailed earlier but our twin boys are biologically mine and not hers due to IVF.


Has she implied that she does not want the kids 50/50?

Did you two not sign up to have the kids IVF 'together'?

Was she unable to have them on her own?


----------



## soca70

Up - she wants 50/50 and we did this together with an anonymous egg donor as she was not able to produce viable eggs.

Yes we did this together and my issue is we made a conscious decision to parent together as well. Which I feel she has reneged on. Maybe that's not being "fair" but it's difficult to be fair at this point.


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> Up - she wants 50/50 and we did this together with an anonymous egg donor as she was not able to produce viable eggs.
> 
> Yes we did this together and my issue is we made a conscious decision to parent together as well. Which I feel she has reneged on. Maybe that's not being "fair" but it's difficult to be fair at this point.


Pardon my french.

But that is complete bullsh!t.

Get your head out of your ass.

Anyone else who sides with you in this can also remove said heads from my previously mentioned location as well.

How dare you.

She has every.single.right to be a 50/50 parent to these children like you do.

What a bitter little man you are.


----------



## keepthefaith

I have to agree with Up....
Just because your sons were born via invitro, does not negate her parental rights. My stbx and I agree to have children .... my husband chose to leave our marriage... that does not mean he has no right to 50/50 custody.
Children need both parents...even if the parents can't/ or choose not to remain married. 
The children should come before or your stbx. If there is no abuse or possible danger for the children she is as much right to custody as you....genetics in your case should play no part in the custody decision.


----------



## 06Daddio08

keepthefaith said:


> I have to agree with Up....
> Just because your sons were born via invitro, does not negate her parental rights. My stbx and I agree to have children .... my husband chose to leave our marriage... that does not mean he has no right to 50/50 custody.
> Children need both parents...even if the parents can't/ or choose not to remain married.
> The children should come before or your stbx. *If there is no abuse or possible danger for the children she is as much right to custody as you....genetics in your case should play no part in the custody decision*.


As long as there is no physical or moral harm to the children.

Agreed.


----------



## soca70

UpnOver said:


> Pardon my french.
> 
> But that is complete bullsh!t.
> 
> Get your head out of your ass.
> 
> Anyone else who sides with you in this can also remove said heads from my previously mentioned location as well.
> 
> How dare you.
> 
> She has every.single.right to be a 50/50 parent to these children like you do.
> 
> What a bitter little man you are.


Up - I appreciate the frankness. And yes there is a strong feeling of bitterness about this. I'm not the one that is making a unillateral decision to walk out on my family without discussion or attempts to resolve apparently workable issues. As I have stated, my concern is the kids being shuttled between two houses for the next 12 years of their life and causing a constant state of instability and uncertainty. If I can work to avoid that, I will. One of our kids already has diagnosed emotional issues as it is. I'm not advocating not having 50% parenting, I'm trying to find a stable solution.


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> Up - I appreciate the frankness. And yes there is a strong feeling of bitterness about this. *I'm not the one that is making a unilateral decision to walk out on my family without discussion or attempts to resolve apparently workable issues.* As I have stated, my concern is the kids being shuttled between two houses for the next 12 years of their life and causing a constant state of instability and uncertainty. If I can work to avoid that, I will. One of our kids already has diagnosed emotional issues as it is. I'm not advocating not having 50% parenting, I'm trying to find a stable solution.


This is not your call to make.

You have no say or control over anyone else but yourself.

If a person (regardless of your relationship to them) decides, tells or implies that this, that or the other thing is no longer working for them.

Then you take it as that.

Your concerns are valid to a point.

Everyone has concerns about 50/50 custody and how it will be on the kids.

As did I.

Your concerns become obsolete when you use them to hide behind because you are bitter and angry at your ex.

You are essentially using them against your ex.

That is not right.

You want a stable solution for your kids?

I suggest getting over the bitterness of what has happened.


----------



## soca70

keepthefaith said:


> I have to agree with Up....
> Just because your sons were born via invitro, does not negate her parental rights. My stbx and I agree to have children .... my husband chose to leave our marriage... that does not mean he has no right to 50/50 custody.
> Children need both parents...even if the parents can't/ or choose not to remain married.
> The children should come before or your stbx. If there is no abuse or possible danger for the children she is as much right to custody as you....genetics in your case should play no part in the custody decision.


I agree and the good news is that she is an excellent parent. I can theoretically see us working this very well together as we have done so. Genetics was never a thought to me before any of this transpired. My concerns have always been the kids splitting houses and moving from place to place. Also, issues with relocation out of state for work.


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> I agree and the good news is that she is an excellent parent. I can theoretically see us working this very well together as we have done so. *Genetics was never a thought to me before any of this transpired.* My concerns have always been the kids splitting houses and moving from place to place. Also, issues with relocation out of state for work.


But it's now your golden ticket for revenge.

Isn't it?

1 week / 1 week rotations.

2-2-3 rotations.

There are various different types and ways to go about it.

Have you taken the time to look these up?


----------



## keepthefaith

My kids are older and my stbx and I have the kids for a week at a time. It works well for us and the kids. 
As a teacher, I have watched my students, elementary school, as their parents progress through the divorce process. I can say that 100% of the time the children handle things better when the parents work together for the best interest of the child. I know that you may feel remaining married would be in the best interest of the child but this is not always the case. Like I've read so many times on TAM, you can't force someone to love you and want to be with you. The children will be much better with happy & caring parents, together or separate.
If she is an excellent parent, you should want your children to have a strong relationship with both of you.
And paperwork can be written to address moves.


----------



## soca70

UpnOver said:


> This is not your call to make.
> 
> You have no say or control over anyone else but yourself.
> 
> If a person (regardless of your relationship to them) decides, tells or implies that this, that or the other thing is no longer working for them.
> 
> Then you take it as that.
> 
> Your concerns are valid to a point.
> 
> Everyone has concerns about 50/50 custody and how it will be on the kids.
> 
> As did I.
> 
> Your concerns become obsolete when you use them to hide behind because you are bitter and angry at your ex.
> 
> You are essentially using them against your ex.
> 
> That is not right.
> 
> You want a stable solution for your kids?
> 
> I suggest getting over the bitterness of what has happened.


Which is why I have been discussing this is in IC and family therapy as to how to separate my feelings from what is the best for the kids and why we are taking time to put this agreement together so it's a reasonable solution. I'm putting this thinking here on this forum instead of doing anything yet to get some opinions/suggestions as well so I appreciate the input from you and KTF.


----------



## soca70

UpnOver said:


> But it's now your golden ticket for revenge.
> 
> Isn't it?
> 
> 1 week / 1 week rotations.
> 
> 2-2-3 rotations.
> 
> There are various different types and ways to go about it.
> 
> Have you taken the time to look these up?


Yes we have discussed this together extensively with our family therapist (which we had been seeing for a year for one of our kids behavioral issues) and attorneys with these different rotations. And there is a difference of opinion on what works best.

My overriding concern is all this is going to screw our kids up. Maybe and maybe not. My IC and attorney say we are in the top 90% of couples handling this situation which bodes well for the future.

And yes if I wanted a golden ticket for revenge in this state I could get full custody and not even try to work out an agreement. However, as frustrated as I am by the situation I have enough sense to realize that is not in the best interest of our boys.


----------



## soca70

keepthefaith said:


> My kids are older and my stbx and I have the kids for a week at a time. It works well for us and the kids.
> As a teacher, I have watched my students, elementary school, as their parents progress through the divorce process. I can say that 100% of the time the children handle things better when the parents work together for the best interest of the child. I know that you may feel remaining married would be in the best interest of the child but this is not always the case. Like I've read so many times on TAM, you can't force someone to love you and want to be with you. The children will be much better with happy & caring parents, together or separate.
> If she is an excellent parent, you should want your children to have a strong relationship with both of you.


Our family therapist recommended 2/2/3 while they are young and then a week on/off as they get older. We're leaning in that direction. Hopefully, this will work out. We both travel for work so we are also building in flexibility.


----------



## happyman64

All good positive answers Soca.

And as hurt you are by your wife's actions and her choice to walk away without working on the marriage issues together in counseling I kwow you will keep this Divorce amicable.

And remember Soca, there is no doubt in my mind that in a year or so you will be happy again.

It is inevitable.

You have much to offer another woman and I think you will have no problem finding another mate.

And you will be far wiser in the selection process the 2nd time around. I know I was.

Now if I can just figure how to get Mrs Happy back to work full time..........

But that is for my own thread.

Have a good day Soca. Keep working on you.

HM64


----------



## 06Daddio08

It's good to hear you guys are working on an amicable custody agreement.


----------



## lucy mulholland

I can empathize, soca. I'm struggling with the fact that I want to work on our marriage and keep our family together, and he wants to leave (and has left)... and why does that mean I have to give up time with my daughter? 

Yes, she needs her mum and her dad -- at this point I can't imagine going a week without seeing her, and I think it would be really hard for her too.

I hope you can work something out.


----------



## soca70

We've been having some good conversations the last few days as I've been able to lower my barrier of anger/resentment so I can speak with her rationally about this without getting so worked up. I basically said this has been forced on me without any preparation so I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it for what's best and if it seems I've been difficult, it's because it has been for me.

Some of the terms like decision-making, I'm OK with joint. Some like relocation, I'm not. She said that would be unfair and I agreed it would be in my favor but since this was not my decision (or even consulted with - however she said I left her no choice), I would think some concessions would be reasonable. Here we have a sales guy negotiating with a lawyer so you can imagine how these discussions go. However, I think we will be able to work out something. I find all of this very distasteteful though - like we're bargaining for the kids - which I told her.

We both agreed this is the worst experience of our lives and she said she had thought several times if this was worth it. I said if you're unsure now maybe we should try MC to work this out then, but she again declined saying it would eventually be for the best.

I am so worried about the boys. Every time I get "on board" mentally about a solution, about 10 minutes later I'm not. I've got one child who has worn the same pair of underwear everyday for 7 months (washed nightly) and the same outfit for weeks on end every day (also washed nightly) because he cannot stand change and the other one just this morning asking how could kids live in such "junky", "creepy" houses like the one we vacationed in on Cape Cod this summer - not knowing he's in store for a 90 year old apartment.

This is so overwhelming. I haven't switched lawyers and I haven't called mine back yet from yesterday. Don't want to make this decision and just crawl back into bed today. I realize that is a "head in the sand" attitude so I will have to power through it.


----------



## lucy mulholland

Yes, trying to find ways to power through is the hardest thing, when every inch of your body is resisting all the things you know you could do. Coffee, music, food...what usually does it for me is just having to pee. Then you're up and put one shaky foot in from of the other.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

It is all about the anger and resentment.

And how you deal with it.

And I know it sucks because your wife does not want to be with you anymore. ANd you still love her.

The key is to treat her like any other new customer in a sales negotiation.

Cut the best deal you can while still acquiring that new customer for the most profit possible.

Then when the account is sold pass her off to customer service so you no longer have to personally deal with her as little as possible.

The goal for you is to convince yourself of this "Why would you want to be with her when she no longer values you as a partner, lover or true friend".

Maybe in time you can be friends again when your heart heals.

The sooner you can convince yourself of this the better off you and your family will be.

Because then you can move on with your life, find a valued partner again and live that new life to the fullest.

It could be worse, you could be the spouse that has decided to fold, to move on alone searching for God knows what????

I would not want to be that person, nor could I truly love that person. Because it is a one way street.

So move forward. Give her her walking papers that she craves.

And get on with your new life.

You and the boys will be fine in time.

And my usual ending,,, because you have no other choice.

HM64


----------



## HappyKaty

:iagree:

In fact, I couldn't agree more.


----------



## soca70

HM/HK - thanks for the input and I agree here. I need to let go and I'm at the point where I'm OK with that. My foremost issue is giving my kids their "walking papers" too now which is holding me back on moving everything forward.

Just got off an almost hour-long call with the existing attorney regarding suggestions the other one had, etc etc. so I was able to clarify my position more on my concerns about the primary residence. He did state that studies show young kids benefit more from a "home base" plus the fact that one boy has diagnosed behavioral issues that involve change would be a strong argument to have a primary home plus a flexible schedule that we would be able to detremine ourselves. This also avoids that "genetics" argument that struck a very understandable nerve on the board recently.

He's going to write up a proposal along these lines. I know this won't be well-received as she's insistent on 50/50 time split but we can use it as a starting point. I'm not concerned about the time but rather location. He agreed it was OK for the other lawyer to review if I wanted. Should be ready by end of week for my review.


----------



## soca70

The monumental anger has subsided substantially recently so I think that's a good thing. 

So this week I've been trying to reconcile my resentment about this situation. I've been asking is it fair to hold it against someone if they really are that miserable in a relationship that they would be willing to lose so much to leave? Is it selfish or is it a self-realization? 

I'm really trying to move past this. Just the blindsidedness of this and with the ramifications to the kids is what I'm stuck on. Does anyone have thoughts on this?


----------



## happyman64

Is your wife selfish? Hell yeah!

Did she blindside you? Probably.

Is she willing to throw your love and marriage away to find her happiness? For sure.

Do you really have any choice in the matter? No.

Do you have to be the more stable adult and parent in this situation? Looks that way.

So what do you do ?

You suck it up. 
You let her go.
You protect the boys and give them the most stable environment and home the best you can with the cards you have been dealt.

I truly think you will be better off without her in your life in the future. Of course she will always be around because of the kids. But Soca, she is of no use to you in your life if she does not want to be with you.

And I recommend you not waiting around for her. She is gonna be busy finding her "self" and her happiness.

Some people go through life searching for it and it is right in front of them the entire time. They cannot see it though and probably never will.

She tried drugs and partying. Not happy.
She married a nice guy who is a do'r. Not happy.
She got the nice home in the burbs. Not happy.
She got the law degree. Still not happy.
She went through Gods know what with you to have a family , 2 beautiful little boys in the end. And still not happy.

You can call her selfish, lost, self absorbed or mid life crisis prone. The fact is that she cannot make herself happy.

So what do you do?

Throw the cards on the table. Fold. Cut your losses. And go find someone that is happy, has high self esteem and will love you and the boys forever.

Go be happy. 

HM64


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Is your wife selfish? Hell yeah!
> 
> Did she blindside you? Probably.
> 
> Is she willing to throw your love and marriage away to find her happiness? For sure.
> 
> Do you really have any choice in the matter? No.
> 
> Do you have to be the more stable adult and parent in this situation? Looks that way.
> 
> So what do you do ?
> 
> You suck it up.
> You let her go.
> You protect the boys and give them the most stable environment and home the best you can with the cards you have been dealt.
> 
> I truly think you will be better off without her in your life in the future. Of course she will always be around because of the kids. But Soca, she is of no use to you in your life if she does not want to be with you.
> 
> And I recommend you not waiting around for her. She is gonna be busy finding her "self" and her happiness.
> 
> Some people go through life searching for it and it is right in front of them the entire time. They cannot see it though and probably never will.
> 
> She tried drugs and partying. Not happy.
> She married a nice guy who is a do'r. Not happy.
> She got the nice home in the burbs. Not happy.
> She got the law degree. Still not happy.
> She went through Gods know what with you to have a family , 2 beautiful little boys in the end. And still not happy.
> 
> You can call her selfish, lost, self absorbed or mid life crisis prone. The fact is that she cannot make herself happy.
> 
> So what do you do?
> 
> Throw the cards on the table. Fold. Cut your losses. And go find someone that is happy, has high self esteem and will love you and the boys forever.
> 
> Go be happy.
> 
> HM64


HM - good clear points. I have been realizing all this and trying to move past the resentment now so I will be able to co-parent effectively for the kids in the future. Honestly, if it wasn't for the boys, I would have probably been over this by now. They are what tear me up the most. By trying to look at it from her point of view, maybe I can gain some empathy or understanding. I know the goal is indifference and trying to find a route there.

On the plus side, I did look up someone on FB who I met at church a few years ago and then ran into again and had a great conversation on a flight to Chicago several months later who I was very attracted to. Unfortunately, I see she now lives in Los Angeles. Which is probably a good thing as she was 10 years younger than me and hot as he!!. Out of the frying pan and into the fire more than likely. But even to be able to look and consider another future now, I think is progress in the right direction.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> She got the nice home in the burbs. Not happy.
> She got the law degree. Still not happy.
> She went through Gods know what with you to have a family , 2 beautiful little boys in the end. And still not happy.


HM - thinking about this more. And the emotional stress and financial strain of providing all this without receiving what I needed emotionally/intimately really began wearing me down the last 2-3 years. I can see where my negativity, resentment, and darkening outlook were coming from. I think I can subconsciously realizing she would not be capable/willing of meeting my needs either. You're right - time to move on.


----------



## happyman64

Not just move on Soca.

Move on and be happy.

I always remind people that I am pro Reconciliation.

But that takes two people with the same goals.

You, your wife and the boys deserve to be happy.

Sadly, you are a married to an unhappy person. Only she can make herself happy. Let her go off to LaLa land and chase her happiness.

You already know what makes you happy. You have the basic ingredients, just find the right woman, add the boys and mix!

And be prepared for when she sees you moving on without her. She is going to see you laugh, be happy and recreating your new family unit.

Sadly I do not think she will be capable of that.

And she will most likely blame you or want in again to some capacity.

That is when you really have to get a thick skin and know what you really want in your life.......

HM64


----------



## soca70

Started the process of switching lawyers today. I was sticking with my current lawyer until this past Friday. For some reason, I get an uncomfortable feeling after each conversation with him. I know he knows my STBX's attorney and I just get a sense he's not really looking after my best interests. Could be mistaken but it just doesn't feel "right" to me. Will have this finalized this week.

Leaving the gym today, I saw STBX had called and I called back. She said she didn't need anything specific just she was "bored" and wanting to know what I was doing. Said leaving the gym, then picking up the boys for gymnastics, and arranging for dinner as she has a church committee meeting tonight.

I found this call interesting in a couple of ways. She's "bored" over in that rental alone. I can say I have not been "bored" in the last 3 months - panic-stricken, desperate, and homicidal - yes, but bored - no. Also, if I make her so miserable, why reach out to shoot the breeze? I just don't get her.


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## oncehisangel

I don't get her either...

but you dont have to.

Just get YOU soca. Your time now.


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## happyman64

Soca

She does not get herself!

Not your problem anymore if she is bored. Man that is one confused woman.

Keep working on you.

No more panic stricken, desperate, homicidal thoughts.

Focus on you, the boys and your future.

Wait till you tell her you are dating. I bet she won't be bored anymore......

And I am not kidding.

HM64


----------



## lee101981

soca70 said:


> Started the process of switching lawyers today. I was sticking with my current lawyer until this past Friday. For some reason, I get an uncomfortable feeling after each conversation with him. I know he knows my STBX's attorney and I just get a sense he's not really looking after my best interests. Could be mistaken but it just doesn't feel "right" to me. Will have this finalized this week.
> 
> Leaving the gym today, I saw STBX had called and I called back. She said she didn't need anything specific just she was "bored" and wanting to know what I was doing. Said leaving the gym, then picking up the boys for gymnastics, and arranging for dinner as she has a church committee meeting tonight.
> 
> I found this call interesting in a couple of ways. She's "bored" over in that rental alone. I can say I have not been "bored" in the last 3 months - panic-stricken, desperate, and homicidal - yes, but bored - no. Also, if I make her so miserable, why reach out to shoot the breeze? I just don't get her.



I think it is a good thing that you switched lawyers, follow your gut... 
As for the ex I think she was just checking up on you wondering what you are doing and with who....


----------



## tom67

lee101981 said:


> I think it is a good thing that you switched lawyers, follow your gut...
> As for the ex I think she was just checking up on you wondering what you are doing and with who....


Next time just tell her you were out with a friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loveispatient

soca70 said:


> The monumental anger has subsided substantially recently so I think that's a good thing.
> 
> So this week I've been trying to reconcile my resentment about this situation. I've been asking is it fair to hold it against someone if they really are that miserable in a relationship that they would be willing to lose so much to leave? Is it selfish or is it a self-realization?
> 
> I'm really trying to move past this. Just the blindsidedness of this and with the ramifications to the kids is what I'm stuck on. Does anyone have thoughts on this?


I've been wondering the same thing. We don't have children, fortunately. But we did attempt 3 IVF procedures that ended up with losses (more recent in November 2012). He's been so unhappy with life, me, our marriage, our losses, my depression, his parents health, our finances etc. When the last fight happened, I realized that I was holding on to someone who was so unhappy. I told him that I was letting him go because I can't stand to see him continue to struggle each day. They say you're supposed to fight for your marriage, but how do you fight when the other is completely miserable in it?


----------



## happyman64

Soca and L.I.P.,

Of course it is hard to let go. And what your spouses are is miserable. 

Not so much miserable in or with the marriage but miserable with themselves and with their own lives.

As a spouse you can love them, support them and respect them.

But as a spouse married to a miserable person you can do the the greatest thing of all!

You can let them go. No matter how badly you do not want to do this. You really have to. Because it is what they want. Are they being selfish? Yes. 

Are you being selfless? Probably.

Because if you do not let them go, they will continue to poison the marriage and your family.

It sucks but I always say what other choice do you really have.....

HM64


----------



## soca70

Yesterday, STBX had picked up the boys from school and took them to Target to buy a lego set with a gift card from the MIL. She called me to see if I wanted to join them for dinner out which I did. Came home and we all assembled a Lego police station. 

We also have planned a ski trip in-state for this weekend spending Friday night at a hotel and Staurday skiing. Boys started to learn last year and want to continue.

Had IC today who told me it sounded like we had a really unusual relationship in being able to do all this together. I said mostly because I have been able to "suck it up" for the kids. My goal for this week is to buy new reeds for my saxophone and start playing it again (which I have not done in over 20 years) but the boys want me to start again. I used to be really good so we'll see if it comes back.

Called STBX to have lunch today. She told me of her plans to get her law license in this state (which I have pushed for 6 years) and the set-back she had last year in doing this. Main issue now is she is working alone all day over in that rental and is very lonely and wants to go back to an office. Possibility that she may have to sit for the bar exam which would require 3-4 months of study plus her current job. The whole process would take over a year and a half to get a new job here. 

She looked very anxious and tense telling me all this and I can tell some reality is setting in. I wanted to say "I told you so" but I kept me mouth shut and just listened.

We were to go together to a PTO meeting tonight but have opted to just stay home with the boys as they really want to play with the new Legos. 

I have an appt tomorrow afternoon with the new attorney.


----------



## lee101981

I would not be able to spend that much time together with h...


----------



## soca70

lee101981 said:


> I would not be able to spend that much time together with h...


I went NC for some time at the beginning of this with my travel schedule, etc but we still live together as we negotiate the aeparation and more importantly custody agreemenst and I have found it easier to go along, to get along at this pointg.


----------



## VFW

soca70 said:


> My goal for this week is to buy new reeds for my saxophone and start playing it again (which I have not done in over 20 years) but the boys want me to start again. I used to be really good so we'll see if it comes back.


I think this is a great idea. Music is the one love that never left me, even through my divorce. It will take you some time to work on your chops, but it will come back. A little John Coltrane is good for the soul.


----------



## Stella Moon

kenny G...


----------



## happyman64

I think you are doing great Soca.

Listen to her. And that is it.

She has to be a big girl now.


----------



## soca70

Met with the new lawyer yesterday. Worked on some "creative" ideas with her with how to keep the boys primarily in one residence especially during the school year but with 50/50 time. Went for school placement (which was agreed to earlier by STBX) and custodial to protect me in case of relocation. This may be "pie in the sky" but we'd do joint medical decisions, etc. Draft should be ready by Tuesday when I have a follow up meeting scheduled. I feel so much more comfortable with this firm.

The 4 of us are leaving this evening for skiing all day Saturday and spending the night in a hotel. Boys love hotels and they had been really pushing to keep learning how to ski from their first time last year. 

So STBX and I will have a full day together while the boys are in lessons. I better be careful on the chairlift as an "accident" could solve all her problems!


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Met with the new lawyer yesterday. Worked on some "creative" ideas with her with how to keep the boys primarily in one residence especially during the school year but with 50/50 time. Went for school placement (which was agreed to earlier by STBX) and custodial to protect me in case of relocation. This may be "pie in the sky" but we'd do joint medical decisions, etc. Draft should be ready by Tuesday when I have a follow up meeting scheduled. I feel so much more comfortable with this firm.
> 
> The 4 of us are leaving this evening for skiing all day Saturday and spending the night in a hotel. Boys love hotels and they had been really pushing to keep learning how to ski from their first time last year.
> 
> So STBX and I will have a full day together while the boys are in lessons. I better be careful on the chairlift as an "accident" could solve all her problems!


The chairlift could also solve your problems.......

Just have a good time. Be yourself. 

And have fun checking out the snow bunnies.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> The chairlift could also solve your problems.......


Yes I could come back this weekend with a whole new outlook on life!

The lawyer did say I would be a good catch!


----------



## lee101981

NO matter what enjoy the time with the kids and relax...


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

And I will be checking the Internet for any skiing accidents in the NorthEast Soca.


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## soca70

Glad to report no injuries or fatalities this weekend! Had a great trip skiing and extended another day as the boys wanted to stay one more night so they could swim in the hotel pool on Sunday. They were able to get down the "bunny hill" on their own by end of day Saturday. No tension between me and STBX so it was actually a good time (or at least for me and the kids - STBX has said we've only had fun "at times").

I was thinking today I cannot see what she is expecting out of life going forward. She wasn't happy when we met, says she wasn't happy during our relationship, and doesn't seem happy now either. I've pretty much decided nothing I can do to make her happy so I'm not worrying about it anymore.

Another thing that will make her unhappy is my meeting today with my lawyer. She had sent over the draft of the custody agreement on Friday and I tweaked it some yesterday. Lawyer is sending this to STBX's attorney tomorrow. It's aggressive and shows I'm serious about the boys having one primary home and not being shuttled back and forth. I'm sure I will hear about this tomorrow evening!


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Glad to report no injuries or fatalities this weekend! Had a great trip skiing and extended another day as the boys wanted to stay one more night so they could swim in the hotel pool on Sunday. They were able to get down the "bunny hill" on their own by end of day Saturday. No tension between me and STBX so it was actually a good time (or at least for me and the kids - STBX has said we've only had fun "at times").
> 
> I was thinking today I cannot see what she is expecting out of life going forward. She wasn't happy when we met, says she wasn't happy during our relationship, and doesn't seem happy now either. *I've pretty much decided nothing I can do to make her happy so I'm not worrying about it anymore.*
> 
> Another thing that will make her unhappy is my meeting today with my lawyer. She had sent over the draft of the custody agreement on Friday and I tweaked it some yesterday. Lawyer is sending this to STBX's attorney tomorrow. It's aggressive and shows I'm serious about the boys having one primary home and not being shuttled back and forth. I'm sure I will hear about this tomorrow evening!


Now you are learning Soca.

She is a drain on you and your emotions.

My brother is the same way. 

Nothing makes him happy. And never will.

Your wife's happiness is her own responsibility.

And guess what, the day she said she wanted a divorce is the day she relieved you of any responsibility to support her quest for personal fulfillment and happiness.

Soon she will be on her own in pursuit of the ever elusive happiness.

Then you will be able to pursue your own happiness. The difference is you will not have to look far........


----------



## soca70

I'm looking at this little card one of my sones, Ryan, made at school yesterday. It's to me and STBX with "I Love You" on top and a drawing of all 4 of us holding hands with our names above each figure. I showed this last night to STBX (without comment) who dismissed it (because it doesn't jibe with her current world-view I suppose). 

I'm starting to feel the bitter winds of resentment and anger starting to blow again so I'm going to need to keep that in check today. My lawyer was delayed a day in sending out the custody agreement to STBX's lawyer so that's going out this afternoon.

This little card is a reminder of why I need to stay strong through this.


----------



## NoWhere

soca70 said:


> I'm looking at this little card one of my sones, Ryan, made at school yesterday. It's to me and STBX with "I Love You" on top and a drawing of all 4 of us holding hands with our names above each figure. I showed this last night to STBX (without comment) who dismissed it (because it doesn't jibe with her current world-view I suppose)..


How gut wrenching. I'm praying for you Soca to get through this as quickly and painlessly as possible. I couldn't even imagine how emotional a card like that would have made me.


----------



## HappyKaty

Soca, is there a posOM, or is she just unhappy in the marriage?


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> Soca, is there a posOM, or is she just unhappy in the marriage?


Absolutely no OM - verified. She is adamantly unhappy with the marriage. Is convinced the kids will be better off with us divorced and will be fine. Still will not do MC. I haven't discussed any R attempts or this custody agreement in weeks. Tonight will be our first conversation about it once she speaks with her lawyer.


----------



## soca70

UpnOver said:


> I feel you on that.
> 
> My daughter has done the same a few times.
> 
> It does get easier.


I just feel that once this happens, this will crush them. If not for the kids, I would have been moved on within a few months but this is another deal altogether.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Absolutely no OM - verified. She is adamantly unhappy with the marriage. Is convinced the kids will be better off with us divorced and will be fine. Still will not do MC. I haven't discussed any R attempts or this custody agreement in weeks. Tonight will be our first conversation about it once she speaks with her lawyer.


If she's legitimately not happy, in the marriage, it's almost impossible to convince her otherwise.

My STBXH has tried everything to get me to agree to MC, but still, I'd rather off myself than try to repair my marriage.

Regardless, good luck tonight, Soca. I hope y'all can have a civil discussion about the kiddos.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> My STBXH has tried everything to get me to agree to MC, but still, I'd rather off myself than try to repair my marriage.


Why that made me laugh I don't know. :rofl:


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Why that made me laugh I don't know. :rofl:


Sometimes, I'm a little less than eloquent.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NoWhere

HappyKaty said:


> Sometimes, I'm a little less than eloquent.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes? Pfft


----------



## HappyKaty

NoWhere said:


> Sometimes? Pfft


Hey, now...

I'm a lady when I need to be, and that's ALL that matters.

Yeah?


----------



## soca70

OK - I occasionally "stalk" Match.com to make sure STBX's profile doesn't show up. So I find this very attractive profile with a full name. I Google to find out more and what pops up are several thumbnail images. So I enlarge one of them and it's from Mugshots.com!!! And not just one but two different mug shots!!!!(Unfortunately, I'd have to pay to find out the crimes)

Is this the dating pool here????


----------



## NoWhere

LOL. Sounds like a few married people or players who don't want their real pictures up.


----------



## soca70

NoWhere said:


> LOL. Sounds like a few married people or players who don't want their real pictures up.


You could tell the mug shots were of the same person as the profile pic - just much more disheveled and rough-looking. Hoo boy! I'm guessing DUIs.


----------



## NoWhere

It could be worse. Atleast those people are in jail.



> Beckman said she had been using Match.com for two months when she met Wade Ridley in September 2010. After just eight days, Beckman ended the relationship, causing Ridley to turn violent. Later, in 2011, Ridley stabbed her 10 times with a butcher knife and stomped on her head when the knife broke.
> 
> Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/2...oesnt-properly/?test=latestnews#ixzz2IvJUU52t


Suddenly figuring out maybe Match.com is not the right way to go here.


----------



## soca70

It was a 2009 arrest. Now "single and ready to mingle"!


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> It was a 2009 arrest. Now "single and ready to mingle"!


Probably just out of prison and ready mingle without the bar of soap!

Patience Soca.

Get the custody worked out.
Break it to the boys.
Get her out of your home.
Then start to peel her out of your life.

Give her what she wants.

Then decide what you want, who you want and then start the taste testing.

I assure you, you will not be on the market for long.

You'll see.

HM64


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Probably just out of prison and ready mingle without the bar of soap!
> 
> Patience Soca.
> 
> Get the custody worked out.
> Break it to the boys.
> Get her out of your home.
> Then start to peel her out of your life.
> 
> Give her what she wants.
> 
> Then decide what you want, who you want and then start the taste testing.
> 
> I assure you, you will not be on the market for long.
> 
> You'll see.
> 
> HM64


Truthfully, I cannot imagine dating any time soon. I know I'm not ready and it's not anywhere near a priority at this point. As you say HM, there are steps that need to be taken first and that is what I'm focusing on and dealing with as the time comes.

I got a big kick today out of that Match.com. Of course the profile I find most physically attractive is the one with a history of multiple arrests. However, I married one "project" and I am well aware I do not need another.


----------



## soca70

Quick update...

STBX's lawyer was on vacation all last week so mine just touched base with hers on Friday afternoon. Agreement will be going out today apparently. This bought several more days of "detente" but I have been feeling very anxious not having any movement.

Positives: my order of new sax reeds came in on Friday and I took one of my sons this weekend to buy some sheet music. Chops are not as rusty as I thought and ended up with a pretty good rensition of "New York State of Mind" yesterday. There is a director of a local band who goes to my church so I'm thinking of getting back in "shape" in the next month or so and then contacting him about joining.

Hopefully this agreement will get out today.


----------



## loveispatient

It's never fun waiting!

But I'm glad you get to play the sax. I purchased a piano in November and I'm enjoying mine...  Catching up on years of NOT playing.


----------



## soca70

Quick update - the agreement/proposal went out late Monday to STBX attorney and I saw some email back and forth yesterday with my lawyer and STBX's. 

STBX must have spoken with her attorney sometime yesterday because I received the "silent treatment" after she got home from a church meeting at 8:30 PM as I was getting the kids in bed and also this morning. 

We'll see what the day unfolds with this. I can say I'm getting very tired of being in the same house with someone who would rather stick a sharp stick in their eye than look at you.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Quick update - the agreement/proposal went out late Monday to STBX attorney and I saw some email back and forth yesterday with my lawyer and STBX's.
> 
> STBX must have spoken with her attorney sometime yesterday because I received the "silent treatment" after she got home from a church meeting at 8:30 PM as I was getting the kids in bed and also this morning.
> 
> We'll see what the day unfolds with this. I can say I'm getting very tired of being in the same house with someone who would rather stick a sharp stick in their eye than look at you.


Patience Soca.

She is almost in that apt. for good.

How does your wife position the future divorce in line with her standing at church???

Just curious.


----------



## soca70

I don't know. I met with our minister a few weeks ago to let him know what's been going on so as to not have any rumors going around. I tried to be two-sided and let him know her reasons. I could tell he wasn't thrilled about the idea of someone leaving a family like this. I'm assuming though it's business as usual. He did ask me who was going to "inherit" the church and I said we both had no intentions of not going elsewhere because the kids are tied into a lot of activities there. It's a pretty liberal congregation so i don't think anybody will think we will burn in Hell over this. 



happyman64 said:


> How does your wife position the future divorce in line with her standing at church???
> 
> Just curious.


----------



## happyman64

Gotcha.

ANd I agree. You are getting burned now. Later will be a different story.


Patience my friend. Patience.......

Enjoy the silent treatment. Did she really think a divorce would be fun???:scratchhead:


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Did she really think a divorce would be fun???:scratchhead:


Oh I can tell you this has not gone according to plan at all. Of course that is all my fault for being "difficult" and "unreasonable".


----------



## soca70

I did have a long conversation with my mother today about this and we discussed whether what I'm doing with the custody agreement is being "unfair" or "vindictive". I can honestly say it's not. I am just making damn sure that this does not impact my future relationship in any way with my kids due to a relocation, etc. I want to make this as airtight as possible as it will set a precedent for any future changes and if it's difficult for some, so be it.

Also my mother said not to worry about being "good" or "bad" during this as people who "play nice" ususally get stomped on during divorce.


----------



## lee101981

soca70 said:


> I did have a long conversation with my mother today about this and we discussed whether what I'm doing with the custody agreement is being "unfair" or "vindictive". I can honestly say it's not. I am just making damn sure that this does not impact my future relationship in any way with my kids due to a relocation, etc. I want to make this as airtight as possible as it will set a precedent for any future changes and if it's difficult for some, so be it.
> 
> Also my mother said not to worry about being "good" or "bad" during this as people who "play nice" ususally get stomped on during divorce.


You really need to do what you think is best for you and your kids. That is the most important thing.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> I did have a long conversation with my mother today about this and we discussed whether what I'm doing with the custody agreement is being "unfair" or "vindictive". I can honestly say it's not. I am just making damn sure that this does not impact my future relationship in any way with my kids due to a relocation, etc. I want to make this as airtight as possible as it will set a precedent for any future changes and if it's difficult for some, so be it.
> 
> Also my mother said not to worry about being "good" or "bad" during this as people who "play nice" ususally get stomped on during divorce.


I think i said once before your Mom is very wise.

What are your inlaws like and what is their opinion of the split?


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I think i said once before your Mom is very wise.
> 
> What are your inlaws like and what is their opinion of the split?


You need an organizational chart to track the in laws family. STBX's mother has been married to FIL for 35+ years but is her third marriage. STBX's biological father is schizophrenic (which is reason for first divorce) and they just reconnected about 8-9 years ago. Numerous half-brothers, sisters, two sons that FIL "disowned" 20 years ago with no contact because of possible involvement in murder of grandmother. I would say their definition of family is "fluid".

STBX's step-father was very controlling and in my opinion (as well as anyone's who knows the details), emotionally abusive
to STBX while growing up. I see now that this has contributed in our relationship with conflict avoidance and not expressing feelings but keeping quiet and harboring resentment.

I had always assumed I had a good relationship with STBX's mother and her husband. One of our major issues though was STBX wanted to insure our kids had a close relationship with them even when we moved cross-country. The problem became that they only visited us about 3 times in 6 years but STBX expected us to all fly all multiple times a year to California. I agreed mostly but did start pushing back (and at the end adamantly when she was demanding a 4 day Thanksgiving trip that would cost us $4000) due to the costs and logistics of flying 4 people (including 2 infants/toddlers) when ILs were retired and chose to go on cruises instead of coming here. ILs are not ones to change routine and don't even visit their own grandkids in CA who live 20 minutes away and make them come to them.

Regarding the split, MIL asked STBX if she was sure and then indicated that "life is short so you need to do what makes you happy" (no comment on any fall-out on the kids) so that didn't go over well with me. FIL apparently said the reason he didn't visit us was because he found me "annoying" or something along those lines. This p****d me off as I think how much time, effort, and money I have spent on STBX's insistence to have these people who really aren't interested in having a real relationship with the grandkids see them. I'm talking camping in a tent on the beach for days, trekking out to Nowheresville in Southern California traffic to their house, etc etc. with toddlers in tow. Moving forward, now that "annoying" me is out of the picture, I would bet everything I own that FIL will still not come here - he doesn't want to! He can barely stand to see the grandkids he has nearby. With this split, they are pretty much out of the picture as far as I'm concerned. STBX does not have the time or funds to keep that relationship going.


----------



## happyman64

Wow, Wow, Wow!

Most men would have met that family and ran like Forrest Gump!

I give you credit but I think you just explained where a good deal of your wife's issues stem from.

Schitzo Dad
Remarried Mom
Abusive StepDad
Out of Touch Parents

You are a better man than me. My father once told me that when you want to marry a girl you need to look closely at her mother. That is what she will become in twenty years.

He was so right.....

You are doing the right thing. I know it does not feel that way but that woman is so lost.

And she may never find herself.

HM64


----------



## Orpheus

happyman64 said:


> My father once told me that when you want to marry a girl you need to look closely at her mother. That is what she will become in twenty years.


i would have heeled this advice if the hook hadn't already been set in me before i met my ex's mother. XMiL is literally one of the worst people i've ever met. All of x's friends would brace whenever mention or hint of XMiL was ever brought up.

anyway. i'm an excellent case study. all. ALL of my issues with x were the inherited stuff from XMiL that she let loose the reigns on.

anyway...


----------



## soca70

Let's say more was revealed as the years went by. This was not my first, second, or third impression.


----------



## happyman64

Wow. I would call that long term trickle truth. That sucks.

And Orpheus. I hear you.

Fortunately my MIL is just awesome.

I lucked out the 2nd time around in love.

Well maybe not luck. I vetted my wife over 5 years!!!


----------



## soca70

My mother said if she had known all this she would never have let me get married!

And this has come back to me during this as now I have been accused of being judgmental and condescending towards her family. Concerned about "bad genes" regarding the kids and schizophrenia, etc. I'm thinking to myself - "Hey - I'm just pointing out the obvious!"

Yes I know she sounds like a hot mess but I wouldn't have really been together with her for 11 years if that was the case. I didn't see the real effects/damage until the last months.


----------



## happyman64

We very rarely see these traits in the ones we love.

And tbh they rarely manifest or come to the surface until later.

And I do not think your wife is a bad person. Just very lost.

But you are no longer the guy holding the compass for her.

And that was not your decision. Nor did you get a choice.


----------



## soca70

Just done cleaning up one of the boys who had woken up and couldn't get to the bathroom on time. He had been really constipated for a week (he has these issues sometimes) so I tried yesterday and today the new "chocolate" (I didn't even know you could give ExLax to a kid but according to the label you can). Well it worked.

We had the usual Friday family movie night. Afterwards, STBX went over to the local coffee haus to work on yet another new emergency project. I have heard that lawyers have a high rate of divorce and I can see why. Of course, I have been "non-supportive" of the time involved with her career. However, I'm not seeing her cleaning up poop right now.

I spoke to my attorney today and she had touched base with STBX's on the custody agreement earlier this week. We're not in agreement on the relocation clause but I am willing to bend on some of the other issues. However, STBX has not spoken to me about this at all and her lawyer didn't have any "counter-offer" either. So I'm assuming if I want this moving, I will need to bring it up. But not really wanting to either as I don't want to start conceding until I need to. I'll see if it comes up this weekend.

Tomorrow I'm taking the boys to a birthday party and then we're splitting them for the afternoon as they like the one on one. Sunday, we do an annual family Super Bowl party and by god that tradition is continuing.


----------



## soca70

Also, earlier this evening I booked the Hilton at Disney World in Orlando for me, the boys, and my 11-yr old niece who are flying down with me over President's Day weekend and meeting my parents who are wintering in FL. I showed the boys the hotel on the laptop and they are very excited and said to STBX "Too bad you can't go with us since you will be working".


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Also, earlier this evening I booked the Hilton at Disney World in Orlando for me, the boys, and my 11-yr old niece who are flying down with me over President's Day weekend and meeting my parents who are wintering in FL. I showed the boys the hotel on the laptop and they are very excited and said to STBX "Too bad you can't go with us since you will be working".


Working in the coffee house.......

For some reason when all of this is behind you , I think you are going to be happier.

I really do.


----------



## Orpheus

you get your mouse-on, boy!


----------



## soca70

An update though not much of one...

Had our now typical weekend. Family Movie Night on Fri. I took the boys to a birthday party Saturday while STBX worked. We split the kids and I took one to buy more sheet music and a playalong read book for the sax. Got that going later that afternoon and had them dancing. One boy told me "You're awesome" . Sunday, I took the boys to church and then lunch. STBX put on a big Super Bowl spread for us (but did have some "black cloud" action going).

Not one mention of the custody agreement all weekend. Monday, we do bills and STBX pays her allotted portion of the mortgage (minus property tax) I took the boys to gymnastics. No mention.

This morning STBX calls me to let me know what's for dinner tonight. Then calls me for an update with our title insurance company lawyer about how there still is no timeframe for our title issue to be cleared (which has been a huge problem for 2 years in getting this house refinanced off the construction loan which I managed to pull off in Oct). I notice how she called the lawyer as our deal is she's paying almost 50% of the mortgage until we are able to either sell this or refinance her out of it. No can do with this title and this could drag on for 2 more years. At this point, I don't care if ever gets settled as it's unsellable now and I can cover it all if need be.

Went to IC but had the wrong time and missed the appt. Had an hour or so then to spare and invited STBX to lunch. Had a pleasant lunch, coffee, and then went to the optometrist and made an appt for me for tomorrow and she was helping me pick out frames. Still no mention of the agreement.

Tonightshe made a nice dinner and then took off for the coffee haus until 10:00ish to work on yet another project. I put the kids to bed, shovelled the snow on the sidewalk, did laundry, dishes, now checking in here.

My lawyer called this evening to ask for an update but really there is none. I think STBX has realized she may have boxed herself in on this somewhat. As Conrad advised me earlier, let them make the next move. I'm OK with waiting to see what the next move is. I was summoned to my corporate office for meetings Mon-Thur of next week and then Fri to Orlando until Mon. I won't really be back until 2/19.

Just kind of weird now.


----------



## happyman64

Conrad is right. Be patient.

The ball is in her court.

And how can she get any work done in a coffee house???:scratchhead:


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Conrad is right. Be patient.
> 
> The ball is in her court.
> 
> And how can she get any work done in a coffee house???:scratchhead:


HM - thanks for the response.

We live near a very large university and a lot of students go to this place to study, etc. STBX work involves mostly reviewing documents and writing analysis. She hasn't really adjusted to not being in an office environment (no camaraderie,etc) so will go there pretty often just to have the energy of other people, etc around.

I have also been thinking this morning that one of the main issues she's had with me had been my negativity. I can honestly say even with all this happening, I have really worked to change that mindset and not voice complaints about finances, the kids, my job, the house issues and to look at the positives. If nothing else, I have been able to get out out of that of thinking which has been a relief.

STBX has been very friendly and talkative the last couple of days so that's been a refershing change as well.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> HM - thanks for the response.
> 
> We live near a very large university and a lot of students go to this place to study, etc. STBX work involves mostly reviewing documents and writing analysis. She hasn't really adjusted to not being in an office environment (no camaraderie,etc) so will go there pretty often just to have the energy of other people, etc around.
> 
> I have also been thinking this morning that one of the main issues she's had with me had been my negativity. I can honestly say even with all this happening, I have really worked to change that mindset and not voice complaints about finances, the kids, my job, the house issues and to look at the positives. If nothing else, I have been able to get out out of that of thinking which has been a relief.
> 
> STBX has been very friendly and talkative the last couple of days so that's been a refershing change as well.


I tell many people that no matter what is happening around them or to them to not lose focus on themselves. To fix themselves.

To better themselves.

It is a lifetime endeavor because none of us are perfect.

Stay positive. Even though you are going through a divorce does not mean you cannot come out better than you went in.

And do you really have a choice?

So focus on the outcome. Make it a happy one.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I tell many people that no matter what is happening around them or to them to not lose focus on themselves. To fix themselves.
> 
> To better themselves.
> 
> It is a lifetime endeavor because none of us are perfect.
> 
> Stay positive. Even though you are going through a divorce does not mean you cannot come out better than you went in.
> 
> And do you really have a choice?
> 
> So focus on the outcome. Make it a happy one.


This is true. Like many others on here, this situation has proven to be an impetus to make positive changes whether willingly or not.


----------



## Orpheus

everything changes, gentlemen. better to make them positive ones; than get trapped under the tread of who you used to be.


----------



## soca70

Just checking in...

Dropped off the kids this morning for a playdate and plan on running some errands. STBX has come down with a bad cold and is working today over at the rental on a work project (have I mentioned the issues we had with the work hours?).

Kids had an event at school until 9:00 PM last night and STBX and I ordered a movie and hung out until 11:30 PM. Tomorrow, the plan is I'm taking the boys to a birthday party and a scout outing to one of the TV stations. Monday I leave for a work trip until Thurs. night.

Still no discussion of the custody agreement, relationship, etc. It's like that topic has just been dropped. Everything is going as usual with the exception of the bedroom arrangements. I'm in a phase of hopefulness mixed with paranoia. 

I'm continuing to wait for the next move and trying to keep the focus on me and the boys and acting as "business as usual".


----------



## Orpheus

btw, you're a good dad, Soca. fwiw.


----------



## happyman64

A great Dad!

And I think waiting for her to make the next move is smart.....


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks so much for the encouragement, support, and advice. I really appreciate it and look forward to your posts.


----------



## soca70

Well next move was made...

As I'm leaving the house this morning with one of the boys for a birthday party, I get served with papers for a temporary court order hearing for custody. STBX and I had a private talk to discuss this tonight. My attorney also pinged me this afternoon checking on status so I let her know what happened and to advise next steps on this.

And I was thinking no news was good news...


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: Losing It*



soca70 said:


> Well next move was made...
> 
> As I'm leaving the house this morning with one of the boys for a birthday party, I get served with papers for a temporary court order hearing for custody. STBX and I had a private talk to discuss this tonight. My attorney also pinged me this afternoon checking on status so I let her know what happened and to advise next steps on this.
> 
> And I was thinking no news was good news...


Sorry to hear.

Assuming can be a biatch at times.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Well next move was made...
> 
> As I'm leaving the house this morning with one of the boys for a birthday party, I get served with papers for a temporary court order hearing for custody. STBX and I had a private talk to discuss this tonight. My attorney also pinged me this afternoon checking on status so I let her know what happened and to advise next steps on this.
> 
> And I was thinking no news was good news...


I bet she did not give you any warning either?

Nice being married to an attorney.

Well I do not think you were surprised.

What is her purpose for the temp custody hearing?

And you do realize once precedent is set and she gets her desired custody arrangement she can finally move out.

I think the boys are the only thing keeping her there.

You stay calm. And keep working through your attorney.


----------



## soca70

Oh the ususal MO on this with no warning. I'm disappointed but not surprised.

So we had the discussion last night. Apparently, my agreement proposal was so far off and her attoreny didn't get the sense that mine was willing to negotiate so they filed the court order to get this moving. This can be cancelled if we reach an agreemnet beforehand. Their counter-proposal was essentially unchanged from what was first presented which I cannot find acceptable due to the lack of relocation protection. However, we did manage to come to a possible compromise on that if that is the only sticking point. My other concern is the schedule being too disruptive.

I wasn't as angry as I've been before but of course this got heated. These WS really have a way of turning it around on you, don't they? At one point STBX states, "I'll agree to our original asset split agreement as long as you don't f**k with me on this custody agreement" which my response was "You're really a piece of work, aren't you?" which led to "moving to Ohio was the worst decision I've made in my life as now I'm stuck here for the duration" (which underscores my concerns for relocation). And to me being "bitter" and playing "Father of the Year for the last 6 months" which I replied had actually been going on for over 2 years as she'd checked out on us and wasn't even aware of what of what was really going on. Blah, blah so much for cool, calm, dispassionate.

I guess the good thing is we managed to end on an amicable note last night with progress on the relo front. I did notice that the judge this was assigned to would be the most favorable to me according to previous discussions with my attorney. I need to discuss with my lawyer how far we want to push on this as nobody wants to go to court.

Last week, I was in some kind of fog of delusion about R as we were getting along so well. Now I'm just "Go away and leave us alone". 

This morning, STBX asked me to get the boys ready and take them to school (which she usually does) as she was up until 4 AM so she could sleep in which I did. I'm looking forward to leaving for the week for business this afternoon.


----------



## soca70

STBX has just informed me that my mother sent a scathing text to her last night regarding the kids. And STBX then states that I have made things much worse than they had to be. I replied some people have differing opinions than yours. This is kind of a mindf*ck.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: Losing It*



soca70 said:


> STBX has just informed me that my mother sent a scathing text to her last night regarding the kids. And STBX then states that I have made things much worse than they had to be. I replied some people have differing opinions than yours. This is kind of a mindf*ck.


Are you okay with your mother getting involved?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> "You're really a piece of work, aren't you?" which led to "moving to Ohio was the worst decision I've made in my life as now I'm stuck here for the duration" (which underscores my concerns for relocation). And to me being "bitter" and playing "Father of the Year for the last 6 months" which I replied had actually been going on for over 2 years as she'd checked out on us and wasn't even aware of what of what was really going on. Blah, blah so much for cool, calm, dispassionate.


----------



## soca70

Ah - the dreaded 2X4s!

Well we just had a calm cool dispassionate conversation regarding my mom's text as STBX is very upset/emotional. I had kept my mother "at bay" for 4 months and STBX knows how involved she can be so has actually been surpsised that she has been quiet for all this time. Text went along lines of we loved you as family and how can you do this to R___ and S____ after what you went through to have kids, etc.

I just said to STBX that this comes from a place of a lot of pain that has been caused and a feeling of betrayal that my family feels and concern for our boys. Also, the blindside way this was handled by STBX. Ultimately, we have very differing opinions on all this. My family and I see this as breaking up a family and putting the kids in a one-down situation and STBX sees this as the best solution for everyone's happiness. 

So things have been smoothed over for now.


----------



## happyman64

Ahh Soca

The old attorney tit for tat negotiation.

It is interesting about the stuck comment because I do think you would let her go but she does not want to look bad or does feel something for the boys.

I feel your pain and as father of the year for the last two years? You are but suck it up.

And the 2x4's are appropriate. That is what you get for marrying a lawyer. 

I do think you are getting loser but for some reason I think you are going to end up in court with your wife.

She is definitely a head trip.

You could always try this line " I supported you getting off drugs. I supported you getting your education and law degree. I supported you when you could not conceive. I supported you creating my/our two boys. The least you could do for me is give me an amicable divorce. Especially because you are the one asking for this divorce!"

You never know, try it.....


HM64


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

The reason for the lumber is Rule #1

She WILL NOT under any circumstances let you grab the victim chair.

An Overview of the Drama Triangle

She will fight you tooth and nail for it.

And, you will get nowhere appealing to victim status.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Ahh Soca
> 
> 
> 
> You could always try this line " I supported you getting off drugs. I supported you getting your education and law degree. I supported you when you could not conceive. I supported you creating my/our two boys. The least you could do for me is give me an amicable divorce. Especially because you are the one asking for this divorce!"
> 
> You never know, try it.....
> 
> 
> HM64


Yes I've used that previously as you've got to give here as this is your call, not mine. Which has gotten me a little traction. However, these other reasons are non-starters to her.

We just had another conversation right before she left for the "office". She presents her side/reasons/expectations of future events with the boys so well and how she's been the one to make this as fair and equitable as possible and how I've slanted things to make my family upset that I do start to feel I'm being unreasonable and difficult to not just agreeing to everything. Maybe I am and just need to get over it if we can get this relocation worked out? Will check in with my lawyer at the airport.

Conrad - trying to get out of the victim chair here but maybe struggling a bit today.


----------



## VFW

Look at both positions and ask yourself honestly, how does each of these positions affect your boys. Then try to take the emphasis off of her and you and put it on the boys best interest. Both of you will eventually get over the break up, no matter how hurtful it is today. However, it will affect the boys for years to come. I know you want whats best for them, just double check yourself and that is all you can do. Don't let someone guilt you into something that is not in their interests.


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## happyman64

And Soca the key is to remember one thing. She wants out of the marriage. That is her goal.

Your goal in addition to protecting the boys is to find a woman so awesome that you realize your wife was right! Everyone needs to be happy!

I just do not think your wife will ever be satisfied or happy. Period.

But that is her problem, not yours. She has fired you. 

And it probably is the worst/ best thing to happen to you!

PSa
Your Mom is not wrong. She worries about the boys and you. But she needs to let you del with her. She is right though.......


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> PSa
> Your Mom is not wrong. She worries about the boys and you. But she needs to let you del with her. She is right though.......



I had a long conversation with my mother last night and about the text she sent. Me being served without warning (again) sent my parents ballistic and she said she couldn't control herself. The issue is STBX has been very close to my family who have always been extremely supportive and involved (letting us live at their lakehouse rent-free for a year while new house was getting built, vacations, etc). My mom (even my dad) has felt as betrayed by STBX as much as me with the same kind of fall-out I've had (losing weight, not eating, not sleeping, etc). She did say well she knows how we feel now and that's it for the communication.

Talked to my lawyer who finally got a copy of this order hearing and now needs a continuance due to availability until some time in April. The goal will be to work this out beforehand.

I'm at my corporate office now through Thur so been busy and no time to dwell on this.


----------



## soca70

And last night wehn I checked in with the boys before they went to bed, STBX was over at the rental working on another project and had our regular babysitter over at the house putting the boys to bed, etc. I made no comment about that.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> And last night wehn I checked in with the boys before they went to bed, STBX was over at the rental working on another project and had our regular babysitter over at the house putting the boys to bed, etc. I made no comment about that.


Are you sure she doesn't have a BF stashed somewhere? She is awfully busy....

And I am not saying that to take a poke at you. I am saying that because what type of Mom will she be when she is on her own, working these crazy hours, trying to have a love life and has the boys????

It really has to make you wonder what is going through her mind.

It also makes me wonder if all of her behaviors have had a negative effect on your marriage?

I understand how your parents feel. And your wife did not have to serve in that way but like I said she is an attorney. And obviously a **** too!

I hope you see as painful as this process is I truly think you will be happier when she is only a coparent. I hope she will be a good one.

Maybe you guys can agree that it is all right if she moves away. She can visit the boys 4 times a year just the way you guys visited her family all these years.

Enjoy the 4 days. Everything will be there when you get home.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Are you sure she doesn't have a BF stashed somewhere? She is awfully busy....
> 
> And I am not saying that to take a poke at you. I am saying that because what type of Mom will she be when she is on her own, working these crazy hours, trying to have a love life and has the boys????
> 
> It really has to make you wonder what is going through her mind.
> 
> It also makes me wonder if all of her behaviors have had a negative effect on your marriage?
> 
> .


My family is convinced there's got to be a OM somewhere but I have lived with these work hours for 10 years so I know what's entailed. She has to work 10 hours a day to bill 8 and with the kids, dinner, etc that puts her working until 10:00 - 11:00 pm. She sometimes gets the sitter to come over while she gets out of the house because the boys are so distracting. Plus I have checked and re-checked and stopped by unannounced a few times and she's always available on the phone when I call so I'm sure there's no one else involved. 

And yes this had a negative effect as I would get back from a work trip and she'd dump everything on me while she caught up. Because everything was up to her when I'd be gone for 2-3 nights. Or work weekends to catch up while I took the boys somewhere. I ended up building a lot of resentment because we couldn't go back to a 75% schedule for her because we needed the extra income for all the expenses we had. But then I thought she was underpaid for the hours and kept pushing for her to get licensed here which she kept putting off because it took too much time, etc, etc, vicious cycle. Looking back, we had pretty much ongoing tension because of this and we should have just cut the schedule back along with the expenses.

Yes I have concerns about how this is going to go but I think a part of her wants this schedule to get the pressure off. As for love life, she says she has no interest in any relationships. It's been a real grind for her to be fair and I would never recommend being a litigation attorney to anyone.


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## Conrad

Soca,

You sound like you feel guilty.

Was it your insistence on the extra income?

The whole consumer-based economy is people sleep walking.

I mean... you can go out and get a decent car for less than 10 grand - a car that meets your family's needs.

Yet, people routinely pop out 25-30k for a brand new car.

They're asleep.


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## happyman64

You are so darn fair and even I wish your wife would read this thread.

But hey, not a darn thing you can do.

Here is a scenario for you:
You realize after all this is over and in time your exw realizes she made a mistake your Mom and dad will beat your butt if you ever discussed reconciliation with her???

You really are in the middle.

Have a good night Soca.

What city are you in for work?


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## soca70

When we moved to Ohio, the main reason was to lower the cost of living. I know we underestimated the cost of childcare because for us that was running $2000K month for 3 yrs and then $1600 for the last two. I had pushed for a $500K house when we first moved here which was more than the budget but I knew we could swing it. Then we sold that one at a $80K loss and built the new one which was "downsizing" but with cost over-runs ran us to $500K again. The issue is I knew we could cover all this with being tight in the short-term until the boys got into first grade plus we'd only have one car payment. But then my company started running into financial trouble and that's when the stress began about the spending. That's when my obsessiveness on how to pay off all the financial shennaningans of the last couple of years kicked in which led me to isolating and "scheming". And the second-guessing and regrets about "should have, would have, could have" that drove STBX crazy.

The unfortunate thing is if this wouldn't have happened at the end of last year, my plan would have worked out by now to be debt-free (minus the student loan and mortgage). 

Oh this was self-inflicted alright.


----------



## Conrad

So, to summarize, you needed the money she was bringing in and the schemes weren't working due to the pathetic economy and real-estate market.

The best authors I've read do indicate that a woman would prefer that her income be optional in an LTR. 

It kills some of your attractiveness as a provider if you are dependent upon her check to make bills.

I'm sure you realize this is true.

Once again, this is primal stuff. It's why the guys with the hot cars get the attention.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> You are so darn fair and even I wish your wife would read this thread.
> 
> But hey, not a darn thing you can do.
> 
> Here is a scenario for you:
> You realize after all this is over and in time your exw realizes she made a mistake your Mom and dad will beat your butt if you ever discussed reconciliation with her???
> 
> You really are in the middle.
> 
> Have a good night Soca.
> 
> What city are you in for work?


Fair - eh I don't know. Not in the STBX's eyes.

Last night, my mom did say you have got to let it go and accept that the 4 of you are no longer a family as difficult as that it is for you. And you've done all you can and now it's time to look after you and the boys only. So hard to do while we still "look" altogether. I don't see STBX wanting to R. She's never once indicated otherwise so I don't think that bridge will have to be considered being crossed.

I am currently in balmy Sioux Falls, SD.

Thanks, HM, for the continuing support.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> So, to summarize, you needed the money she was bringing in and the schemes weren't working due to the pathetic economy and real-estate market.
> 
> The best authors I've read do indicate that a woman would prefer that her income be optional in an LTR.
> 
> It kills some of your attractiveness as a provider if you are dependent upon her check to make bills.
> 
> I'm sure you realize this is true.
> 
> Once again, this is primal stuff. It's why the guys with the hot cars get the attention.


Which was the original plan but then my job got potentially shaky but still with high enough income so I couldn't leave somewhere else because I couldn't match it in this market. 

Funny though she'd get resentful when I put my work ahead of hers at times because I said I make more. 

If I put down our income on this thread you guys would tell me to sit down and STFU about worrying but we managed to hit NSFs a few times in the checking accounts - once while in CA visiting her parents. It drove me f***ing nuts because financial worries are a big weakness of mine. I've had to really backburner all that for now because I can't start going there at this point.


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## happyman64

Soca

Listen to your Mom.

Move forward. It is the only direction you can move in.

And Conrad is right. My wife is working two part time jobs just to help out and keep our kids in private school/college. I know she sees me differently after all these years of marriage.

And my business went bust with 911. My 4 largest customers happened to be in the world trade centers.

How is that for luck.

But whenever my wife gets down I remind her of a few things.

Our kids are healthy.
Our kids are happy.
We have each other and each others backs.
And our families stick together. Hers and Mine. Both our parents are alive. both are married over 50 years.
We each have 3 siblings. There is no divorce on either side of our families... Yet.:scratchhead:

So get this relationship finished off. And go find a woman who will be your rock. One that will love you, protect you and cherish your boys.

You will be amazed how many women would kill to be with you.

And I am not kidding.

And Conrad, I was the guy with the nice cars, trucks and even a plane. My wife says I tricked her. 

And I did!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Which was the original plan but then my job got potentially shaky but still with high enough income so I couldn't leave somewhere else because I couldn't match it in this market.
> 
> Funny though she'd get resentful when I put my work ahead of hers at times because I said I make more.
> 
> If I put down our income on this thread you guys would tell me to sit down and STFU about worrying but we managed to hit NSFs a few times in the checking accounts - once while in CA visiting her parents. It drove me f***ing nuts because financial worries are a big weakness of mine. I've had to really backburner all that for now because I can't start going there at this point.


We can talk about it later.

Sounds like a growth area for the future.


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## Orpheus

s70, back off the blame. life is peaks and valleys. the exact cause is irrelevant because the measure of the relationship is about how it overcomes stresses. doesn't matter how close you were to completing your master plan because the causation would have been some "other thing" and just another time.

you're a good guy. we have a lot of similarities so i get the beating yourself up thing. but at the end of the days it's not about the cause or the blame it's about the getting better and doing better.


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## soca70

An update...

Back from my trip to my corporate office and then the long weekend in Orlando with my parents, niece, and the boys. It was a nice feeling to be around people who are genuinely happy to see you. Kids did well at Disney World, plane, etc.

Then back to the real world...

After we got home on Monday evening and put the kids to bed, I went against all the TAM rules and checked online on the dating site I had found in Oct as I had a "feeling" something might be up over since everyone was gone for 3 days and I find STBX has posted a profile with pic, comments, etc. This is the last straw for me so I said I'm not having this BS while you are still here so I want you moved out by Friday. She comes back with "You're being ridiculous. I was bored senseless on Saturday so I posted just to see what's out there plus we haven't been together since September". Then goes on to tell me nothing has happened since she's been discovering in her own IC how she's terrified of any new relationships and her difficulties in having sex while sober. .

At this, I say you have got to leave at this point which she countered once I sign the custody agreement she's proposed, she will. Which is the impasse. Long story short, she won't compromise and I won't agree as is so it looks like this will be decided in court on 4/10. However, she booked a two week work trip to Los Angeles in March and agreed to possibly a "soft" transition for the kids a couple of nights a week starting next week. And we could tell the kids when she gets back from her trip in Mar.

Yesterday, I spoke with my lawyer and she said I have to stick this out as is until April so the kids don't leave the house until then.

Also, had an IC appt who said I looked worn out and is concerned about me and reiterated I need to take care of myself as my company just filed a Ch 11 bankruptcy a few weeks ago coupled with the stress of this mess plus the kids.

An noticed STBX had taken that profile down.

But wait there's more! So STBX tells me she has scheduled an appt for my son with behavioral issues on 3/4 with the family therapist as we need to get him back with his management program (which therapist said to postpone until we resolved this). I let my mother know and she said she thinks STBX is setting me up (again) to break the news to the boys with the therapist with her spin without me involved. She said why would she schedule that now and before her 2 week trip? I'm not this Machiavellian so I'm not sure if this is the case or not but I can see how this could be the case. Which puts me now having to make a decision to blindside STBX with the boys the weekend prior.

Honestly this is starting to really get to me and I almost didn't even want to post this update but I'm now glad I did to get this out.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> An noticed STBX had taken that profile down.


Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.

You ready to play hardball?

Tell her you're tired of the games and if she persists, you're going to rip up the agreement and sue for full custody.

And, you will win.

She and you are both to speak highly of each other with the kids and there will be no clandestine counseling sessions or any other nonsense as she tries to assuage her guilt.


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## soca70

Conrad said:


> Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
> 
> You ready to play hardball?
> 
> Tell her you're tired of the games and if she persists, you're going to rip up the agreement and sue for full custody.
> 
> And, you will win.
> 
> She and you are both to speak highly of each other with the kids and there will be no clandestine counseling sessions or any other nonsense as she tries to assuage her guilt.


Yes she knows I'm about there at this point which has shocked the he!! out of her and also confirmed for her that she made the right decision, etc, etc.

And I need to find out the reason for this session or I will cancel it. I'm inclined to cancel it anyway.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yes she knows I'm about there at this point which has shocked the he!! out of her and also confirmed for her that she made the right decision, etc, etc.
> 
> And I need to find out the reason for this session or I will cancel it. I'm inclined to cancel it anyway.


Just cancel it.

Say nothing.

When she asks about it, tell her you cancelled it - and why.


----------



## soca70

Got it.


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## happyman64

And Soca.

She shows little to no respect for you.

I like Conrad's advice.

But I would go one step further. You and your wife sit down and tell the boys you are D this weekend.

Then tell her to get out. She can date all she wants. She can go have all the strange sex she wants while sober.

The sooner she feels the repercussions the better for her. And if she will not move out due to custody then tell her we will see each other in court.

She is a lawyer so she will know what this means.

And stop reacting to her antics. This is what her angle has been the whole time.

Now her work nights at Starbucks will truly take a new meaning.

*"Let Her Go!"*

Your future happiness has nothing to do with her, only you.....


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I like Conrad's advice.
> 
> But I would go one step further. You and your wife sit down and tell the boys you are D this weekend.
> 
> Then tell her to get out. She can date all she wants. She can go have all the strange sex she wants while sober.
> 
> The sooner she feels the repercussions the better for her. And if she will not move out due to custody then tell her we will see each other in court.


HM - I agree that this is what needs to be done. But here's the catch - my concern is I'm going for primary residential custody now and my attorney thinks I have a good shot at it. But if STBX moves out before the court hearing on 4/10, I'm concerned she will start taking the boys over to the rental. Then I'm left with 2 choices: 1) start getting the boys and taking them back and let them see some disastrous tug-of-war or 2) Go with it but then it could possibly start a precedent that the court would approve as it's already in place. My attorney says as hard as it is I need to stick this out. I sent some follow up questions to my attorney yesterday and am trying to gain clarity as really what my rights would be under that scenario - haven't heard back yet but will make decisions accordingly.

I received an email today from STBX's best friend in Los Angeles saying that I wasn't being fair, etc. I'm not replying but fair to her is no longer a concern here. This really goes against my true nature but STBX has shown through this that as much as I want to, I really can't trust her anymore. At this point, I don't know what she would try 2 years or 2 minutes after that agreement is signed as is. She's talking a good game now but as Conrad says "watch the actions".

As far as respect goes, I'm not sure. Every time I've called BS on something she has backed down. Maybe there is some shame after all. I just think we are seeing this whole thing so differently or I'm seeing the real person - can't tell, maybe both.

However, this follows a track record that I have been aware of since we've been married. Once she gets an idea in mind, full speed ahead and damn the cost.

Example A: Law school and $123K in student loans
Example B: 3 rounds of IVF at enormous cost
Eaxmple C: $20K on credit cards for new rental, furniture, lawyer for separation
Example D: Destabilizing my kids' life and future with a blase' "Oh they will be fine" and the kicker this week "everyone has hardships and it's how you deal with them is the key" - as if that's advice to 6 year olds.

I've tried to keep this in check but even writing this, I see where I've enabled it. Even though my concerns about this have now been labelled as "non-supportive" although I eventually usually went along.

Moving forward, I've just got to not let this stuff visibly get my goat and start saying as little as possible about any of this- she's trying to push the buttons to get the outcome she wants. So weird though as she's making dinner, reviewing the boys' artwork with me, all smiles, and simultaneously plotting against me. Maybe I needed all this however to really make me let go of our marriage.


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## happyman64

Good points Soca.

But just know that shame is shame and respect is respect.

Screw being fair.

And you do need to let her go.

I will say this. From what you have told s about her, you really can do better.

Listen to your attorney. And tell her friend to mind her own business.

And a few posts ago I used the word selfish to describe your wife's actions.

Do you agree with me now? She has no regard for your feelings. Only after the fact.


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## soca70

HM - my IC agreed with you this week that she's lost and now searching for something.

And after Disney World this week, one of my boys says to me. "Dadda, will you always be with me except when I'm at school and you're on work trips?" and I said, "Baby, I will always be with you."

I don't give two s***ts what someone else thinks is fair.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> HM - my IC agreed with you this week that she's lost and now searching for something.
> 
> And after Disney World this week, one of my boys says to me. "Dadda, will you always be with me except when I'm at school and you're on work trips?" and I said, "Baby, I will always be with you."
> 
> I don't give two s***ts what someone else thinks is fair.


Time to change the avatar.

Offer it to her.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> And a few posts ago I used the word selfish to describe your wife's actions.
> 
> Do you agree with me now? She has no regard for your feelings. Only after the fact.


Yes as hard and unbelievable as it is to accept, it's true. FYI - my mom pointed that out a few weeks ago also.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yes as hard and unbelievable as it is to accept, it's true. FYI - my mom pointed that out a few weeks ago also.


It's classic behavior.

She sees only herself.

Refresh my memory. How old is she?

She had an abusive childhood, correct?


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> It's classic behavior.
> 
> She sees only herself.
> 
> Refresh my memory. How old is she?
> 
> She had an abusive childhood, correct?


43
And her step-father from 2 yrs on was emotionally abusive when she was elementary school age. Like pinning a note on her back saying "I wet the bed" and sending her to school. And this is my FIL. Apparently reformed. My parents are adamant about not letting the boys go to California and staying with him without me there moving forward. He's already been somewhat shady with one of the boys. He's not a big fan of kids - doesn't speak to two of his own.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> 43
> And her step-father from 2 yrs on was emotionally abusive when she was elementary school age. Like pinning a note on her back saying "I wet the bed" and sending her to school. And this is my FIL. Apparently reformed. My parents are adamant about not letting the boys go to California and staying with him without me there moving forward. He's already been somewhat shady with one of the boys. He's not a big fan of kids - doesn't speak to two of his own.


How old is she? Mid-thirties if memory serves?

It's not too late, but she has work to do.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> How old is she? Mid-thirties if memory serves?
> 
> It's not too late, but she has work to do.


I wish mid-30s. We're both 43. At least I give her credit for working with the IC on issues. 

I can't be too judgmental here as I had some of these same issues back in the day when I got sober 13 years ago. I was talking to my best friend in San Diego (who got me sober) and I said she's only been sober with me and it's an adjustment of expectations. The highs aren't as high and the lows aren't as low so if something is pleasant, that's pretty much a good outcome but vastly different from the "real fun" of going out drinking, etc. I brought this up with STBX last week and she said it was probably a mistake that we got together 30 days after she got sober - I was her AA sponsor and caught a lot of flak from my friends. I know this doesn't sound great but I have always felt that we really put that behind us - there's been no issues regarding substance abuse, etc at all for 12 years.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I wish mid-30s. We're both 43. At least I give her credit for working with the IC on issues.
> 
> I can't be too judgmental here as I had some of these same issues back in the day when I got sober 13 years ago. I was talking to my best friend in San Diego (who got me sober) and I said she's only been sober with me and it's an adjustment of expectations. The highs aren't as high and the lows aren't as low so if something is pleasant, that's pretty much a good outcome but vastly different from the "real fun" of going out drinking, etc. I brought this up with STBX last week and she said it was probably a mistake that we got together 30 days after she got sober - I was her AA sponsor and caught a lot of flak from my friends. I know this doesn't sound great but I have always felt that we really put that behind us - there's been no issues regarding substance abuse, etc at all for 12 years.


So, there's a strong element of parent-child from you to her?


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> So, there's a strong element of parent-child from you to her?


I would agree. Or maybe a Pygmalion complex.


----------



## gbonham77

do not trust her words completely


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa 

Reading through your thread, your W reminds me a lot of mine. Mine hasn't had the addition issues, aside from the hundreds of pairs of shoes. You wouldn't believe it 

As long as I live, I will never understand how one day you're together in bed before the dawn, drinking coffee and sharing hopes and dreams, then, literally days later, you're splitting the sheets. It's this sense that you have been deceived for some time. Not just by an infidelity, but truly by her heart, that she kept a lot of it in and then finally betrayed not just your trust and fidelity, but the bond, the intimacies and secrets tha only the two of you shared. 

I don't care what anybody says, I will never get past this.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa
> 
> Reading through your thread, your W reminds me a lot of mine. Mine hasn't had the addition issues, aside from the hundreds of pairs of shoes. You wouldn't believe it
> 
> As long as I live, I will never understand how one day you're together in bed before the dawn, drinking coffee and sharing hopes and dreams, then, literally days later, you're splitting the sheets. It's this sense that you have been deceived for some time. Not just by an infidelity, but truly by her heart, that she kept a lot of it in and then finally betrayed not just your trust and fidelity, but the bond, the intimacies and secrets tha only the two of you shared.
> 
> I don't care what anybody says, I will never get past this.


BW - if you're like me, it makes you wonder what was real or not. From this site, a recurring theme is WS rewriting history ("I never loved you", "our marriage was terrible", etc) and I've been on the receiving end of some of this as you may have read. 

Since we are still living together, I've tried to read STBX and just can't see it sometimes. Like this evening when she came home with the kids from school and I told one boy, "Well hello sweetheart" and she replies "Oh, well hello to you too" in a funny way and we both laughed (due to the obvious issues) and proceeded to make dinner, hang out with the kids, bathe them, bedtime, etc. An outsider would never know. And apparently an insider (me) didn't either. When this first went down, I remember saying that she was one hell of an actor to keep this up for so long.

And last week, she was saying to me something about "when we move past this" and I said "there is no way I will move past what's happened to our family". Maybe in time. But yes the betrayal of the heart and trust is what stings the most.


----------



## happyman64

> I don't care what anybody says, I will never get past this.


Oh yes you will. Both of you.

Because if you do not you have let those broken persons win. Since they are not happy with themselves they have decided that their spouses do not get to be happy.

So they rob you of their happiness.

Take it back. For yourselves.

Because if you don't, you will never be happy. Neither will your children.

And then everyone loses.

So I urge you to let them go. Hope they find happiness. I t very likely will not be with you but that is ok. 

Because if they do not work on their own issues they will just screw over their next partner.

But you can control you. And therefore your future..........

Rant over!


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Oh yes you will. Both of you.
> 
> Because if you do not you have let those broken persons win. Since they are not happy with themselves they have decided that their spouses do not get to be happy.
> 
> So they rob you of their happiness.
> 
> Take it back. For yourselves.
> 
> Because if you don't, you will never be happy. Neither will your children.
> 
> And then everyone loses.
> 
> So I urge you to let them go. Hope they find happiness. I t very likely will not be with you but that is ok.
> 
> Because if they do not work on their own issues they will just screw over their next partner.
> 
> But you can control you. And therefore your future..........
> 
> Rant over!


HM - thanks for the 2X4's!


----------



## happyman64

Always a pleasure Soca.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, it's gotta be really tough living like that, so close, yet so far.... It would kill me, I'd be forever wanting to pull her close, as much as I hated her.... Keep waking up in the morning hoping it had all just been a bad dream and WS never did those things or spoke those terrible words. 

I was in Afghanistan a couple of years ago and an Afghan Army general was telling me how in his home village that when adulterers were caught, they were tied to a rope and dragged behind a jeep for about ten miles down a rocky dirt road. No need for IC, no self-help books, no protracted divorces. Certainly no TAM. 

Not advocating we go to this method, but I would give anything to believe I can get past all this. 

Have a good one, hang tough.


----------



## Bullwinkle

HappyMan -

I know in my heart that you are right. It's just so hard letting go, in spite of everything. 

But tomorrow's a new day.


----------



## happyman64

BW

Coming home from Afghanistan alive and in one piece is hard!

Letting go is hard as well.

But only one of these events will kill you.

The other one will kill you if you let it happen.

Do not let it happen.

One day at a a time.

HM64


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good stuff, HM. I needed that. Thanks.


----------



## Conrad

Bullwinkle said:


> HappyMan -
> 
> I know in my heart that you are right. It's just so hard letting go, in spite of everything.
> 
> But tomorrow's a new day.


You got that right.


----------



## soca70

This afternoon STBX stops by to watch the kids while I go the gym for an hour and then take them for a playdate. Due to weather school was cancelled and I've had them until about 1:30 PM. 

Before I leave for the gym, she says that we are telling the kids tomorrow and she will be spending Mon and Tue nights over at the rental to start getting them used to her not being here. The boys will stay with me until April's court date if we have not come to an agreement by then.

She said she's very nervous aboutr telling them. And (yes I know I know I couldn't not stop myself) I replied, "You should be as my IC says in every case she's seen, the kids have problems with the leaving parent." STBX says it depends on how we handle it and I just said I will not speak negatively, etc about her but she will need to hold herself accountable from now on out with the boys for life.

I'm also nervous about this but I also feel the time has come.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> This afternoon STBX stops by to watch the kids while I go the gym for an hour and then take them for a playdate. Due to weather school was cancelled and I've had them until about 1:30 PM.
> 
> Before I leave for the gym, she says that we are telling the kids tomorrow and she will be spending Mon and Tue nights over at the rental to start getting them used to her not being here. The boys will stay with me until April's court date if we have not come to an agreement by then.
> 
> She said she's very nervous aboutr telling them. And (yes I know I know I couldn't not stop myself) I replied, "You should be as my IC says in every case she's seen, the kids have problems with the leaving parent." STBX says it depends on how we handle it and I just said I will not speak negatively, etc about her but she will need to hold herself accountable from now on out with the boys for life.
> 
> I'm also nervous about this but I also feel the time has come.


I could not agree more. It is time.

It is time she faces the piper Soca!

Be calm. Do not get upset. Because your boys will need you to be the rock.

Because your wife will never be one.

And make a promise to yourself.

The next woman in your life that you get serious with is a rock for you and for them.

I found one you can find one too!

And my rock would never ever leave her children or her husband. 

They are out there.

So be positive of the outcome. And do everything in your power to make it right.

You can do it!

I know you can.....................


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I could not agree more. It is time.
> 
> It is time she faces the piper Soca!
> 
> Be calm. Do not get upset. Because your boys will need you to be the rock.
> 
> Because your wife will never be one.
> 
> And make a promise to yourself.
> 
> The next woman in your life that you get serious with is a rock for you and for them.
> 
> I found one you can find one too!
> 
> And my rock would never ever leave her children or her husband.
> 
> They are out there.
> 
> So be positive of the outcome. And do everything in your power to make it right.
> 
> You can do it!
> 
> I know you can.....................


Thanks, HM. It will take all my willpower to keep my mouth shut tomorrow but now is not the time to place blame in front of the boys. In time they will know who stood by them and who didn't. My IC this week said this experience has really solidified my role as a father and brought me closer to them. If nothing else, that is a strong positive.

I can see STBX is upset by this and I know she loves them as much as I do. This is what I have found so shocking. She's convinced that this is not leaving them just me. We just didn't see the solution or the repercussions as the same.

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca, I am impressed, you are one brave MoFo. 

It's like facing the firing squad. I hope I am able to be so strong when my moment comes.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Soca, I am impressed, you are one brave MoFo.
> 
> It's like facing the firing squad. I hope I am able to be so strong when my moment comes.


I don't know how brave, BW. I've tried to postpone this for months hoping for some kind of "Hail Mary" moment that never came. The thought of my kids hurting makes my head want to explode. But I know I have done everything I can and will have to support them as best as possible.

Brave I think is what you're doing this evening!


----------



## happyman64

> She's convinced that this is not leaving them just me.


That is what a selfish person thinks Soca. She cannot and will not see past her own nose. And when she gets a glimpse of the damage she is causing she will find another reason to make you out to be the bad guy. The controlling husband.

And she might not ever have that "Oh Sh!t" moment. But for her to have it you really need to let her go. Go get used and abused. Go lose you and her family.

She needs to see it happen. She needs to feel it. And if she doesn't feel it then you really know how damaged she is.

But i encourage you to make it as amicable as you can stomach. Protect the boys.

But if she wants to go or move, let her. But not with the boys.

And I know you say she really loves the boys but how can anyone love their children that does not love themselves, loves their husband and loves their family/marriage.

I learned a long time ago that my love grew like this.

GF/Wife/D1/D2/D3 then my marriage.

I truly did not appreciate my marriage until I saw how my wife interacted with my daughters as well as with me. We are a tight unit. And my wife has my back no matter what happens or tight life gets.

Don't you deserve someone like that?

You do!

It would be nice in a year or two if your wife woke up. I do not expect her too! Not unless she gets serious help.

She thinks getting anew man will fix her issues. Experimenting with a new relationship hence the online profile.

She left out one line though "Damaged woman with low self esteem and high pressure job who could not keep last good guy because I cannot see past my own nose" aka the truth.

Here is another thought for you. Did she mention in her online profile if she was married, separated, divorced, a mother or has two kids in tow? The truth again.

You focus on you. You will be fine in a few months. And in a year or two you will be awesome.

Because you are that guy. It is as simple as that.

HM64


----------



## lucy mulholland

i got the "i'm not leaving her, just you" from my H, too, re: our now 7 year old. what pains me is not so much the effects right now, but how, over her whole life, this will shape her view of things and her experience of security, trust, etc. 

give us all strength...


----------



## happyman64

lucy mulholland said:


> i got the "i'm not leaving her, just you" from my H, too, re: our now 7 year old. what pains me is not so much the effects right now, but how, over her whole life, this will shape her view of things and her experience of security, trust, etc.
> 
> give us all strength...


Just think of the view she will have on relationships, dating and marriage.

My wife and I agree and disagree on many things. But one thing we agree on is that we continue to improve our marriage/relationship not jut for us but for our children.

Even being affectionate in front of them.

When one spouse is selfish and decides to cut and run versus working on a relationship do they think the kids do not see that???

Of course they do not see that because again they cannot see past their own nose.......


----------



## soca70

Well we did it. STBX is over with the boys now at the "secret office". Let her do the talking on that one.

This went how I imagined. When this first went down in Sept/Oct, I told her that she was going to be the one telling them while I was there since this is her doings. She did the explanation of how people meet, fall in love, doesn't work out, etc, like my sister and her XH, we both love you, etc. One boy started sobbing and the other asked her when she was leaving and she said starting Monday and he said, "I hate you. Why don't you just leave today so we don't have to ever see you again! I'm staying here with Dadda!" and the other one jumped up on me crying and I said "I know, sweetie. This wasn't my choice either. And I'm not going anywhere and you'll be staying with me for the next few months."

After about 10 minutes, they settled down and agreed to go over to the rental.

STBX can spin this, justify herself, convince others, but it was pretty obvious to the boys. I hope that hurt her like he!! because it did to them.


----------



## GutPunch

Painful to read.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

You're absolutely right, no matter how she spins it or tries to put a happy face on it, your boys already know the truth. 

I'd tell you to be strong and hang tough but we know you already are.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Soca
> 
> You're absolutely right, no matter how she spins it or tries to put a happy face on it, your boys already know the truth.
> 
> I'd tell you to be strong and hang tough but we know you already are.


Thanks for the encouragement, BW. Busy weekend on TAM, eh?

While STBX took the boys over to the rental today, I ran a few errands, and then we agreed to all go to an animated movie. At the end, one boy said to me he needed to go home and rest as he was so sleepy. I could see the shutting down from shock hitting him. STBX wanted us to stop by Barnes and Noble to pick up a book and I said no, just go home. I knew it had to be some kind of helping kids deal with divorce book and thought a little too late on that one today.

Then in the car, my behavioral issues son gets into a fight with the other one, scratching him and pulling hair, and wailing on him like I've never seen. I say to STBX to pull the car over and I will move one into the 6th seat and she's yelling at him to stop and why is he doing that and as I get out of the car I say "I wonder why?" As I get one loaded into the rear, she comes out of the car, running up into the back and yells "what did you say? what did you say?" I said "Get in the car and drive." Both boys then startt saying "Don't talk that way to Dadda. He's much smarter than you. You're a jerk." I said "Enough. We're not calling names."

After that swell moment, one boy aks me if they are moving into STBX's new house next month. I said no not yet and he says not the apartment but the one she's going to buy. (STBX won't be able to buy a house for 2 years - just went $20K in the hole for this rental). I said oh probably not anytime soon. He says in 6 months? No. 1 year? No. So I'm seeing she's told them about some great house they are going to live in which is still years away. 

And I've been portrayed as the unhinged one!

Boys were very clingy and sad rest of the day/evening. Wanted me to give them baths which I did, Put them to bed and talked to both for awhile letting them know they can ask me any questions, tell me anything. They said they were scared and I reassured them, etc. One was crying saying he liked the bunk beds and would want to sleep in them on the weekend but wanted to go to school from this house. My other one said he hated it.

After they went to bed, I went into my office, my parents called, etc. I won't even talk to STBX tonight - let her own today by herself. 

She wants to start spending Mon and Tue over there and come back for the rest of the week but I'm not seeing that as good for the kids - too confusing and upsetting. I have to talk to her tomorrow about staying over there until April and working out some kind of arrangement for her to take them to dinner or something Wed and Thur. I can't legally get her to leave but hopefully she will take the kids into consideration. I doubt it though as she doesn't want to miss out on them or be seen as leaving (too late on that one).

I would have walked on glass to keep from hurting my kids like this.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, Soca, it sounds so difficult, and so screwed up, what you're going through. The confusion about who's sleeping where and when, would kill me. That and the daily interface and closeness of your WS. I wouldn't know whether to try and kiss her or slap her.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Stay calm.

You are the rock for you and the boys.

And your wife continues to be delusional.

Ease the boys into it. It is all you can do.

And ease her out. I know you want her out but for the boys sake ease her out. It should be easier now that the boys know you two are divorcing.

Now hammer out the custody and send her packing. And Remind her not to put any happy spin on the future.

Have her stick to the truth. Like we wish all good lawyers would do. &#55357;&#56881;


----------



## staystrong

Hang in there, Soca.

I reread your entire thread today. You're doing so well on the Dad front.


----------



## soca70

An update...

Yesterday I took the boys birthday present shopping at Target and then to one of their friend's party. It was a great turn-out with a lot of their friends from pre-school and the parents I haven't seen since the summer so a good time. My son, R___, did keep coming over to me several times to "rest" and I could see he was thinking about what's going on though.

Later in the afternoon, STBX and I were working with the boys on homework and I caught R___ in the bathroom with tears in his eyes and my other son, S____, was really acting up. At bed, they told me they were both upset, sad, and felt like STBX was leaving them. R___ asked if it was her decision only and I said yes and I had tried everything I could to keep us all together. And he said "Well could you have tried harder?" I reassured them with STBX is not leaving them (biting my tongue), loves them, trheir grandparents, aunt, cousin, etc love them and are here for them.

After they went to bed, STBX comes into the office (where I had sequestered myself) to get me to watch something on TV. After that I asked how she thought this all went. She replied "Pretty well I think. They were upset for about 10 minutes and then seemed to get over it. They were excited about the new place and asking when they were coming over to sleep and telling me how much they loved me, etc."

I replied "OK. Not exactly what they told me" and I reiterated their comments from last night, R___ pretty much shutting down at the movie and the next morning, R___ crying in the bathroom, S____ saying he hated the rental because we were not together, etc etc" and UNBELIEVABLY she says that R___ was probably crying in the bathroom because S___ took a toy of his, S____ always acts up like that, R___ was in a movie and it was dark and he got tired, and I was asking them "leading" questions to turn them against her and looking for signs that aren't there and wanting to see these as she has seen no evidence of them being upset. I said well you may want to reassure them that you aren't leaving them as a precaution then.

So tonight was STBX's first night out of the house. When I picked up the boys from school, they were in good spirits. I took them to McDonald's where they behaved better than I've ever seen, and then to gymnastics. Sterling behavior (a rare bird).

So at gymnastics, I get a tap on my shoulder and STBX has showed up to watch them. Which annoyed the he!! out of me but she has the right. However, we don't know the parents at the gym so I was cordial but pretty 180-ish. At the end, the boys ran up to her, huge hugs, etc. Then she proceeds to buy them drinks from the vending machine and then gives them money for their allowance (little chores, etc) for doing so well at dinner (which annoyed me even further as the motive seemed transparent to me).

Boys asked if she was coming home and she said she had a church meeting and then staying at her place to night. Immediate falling faces. Goodbyes said and I took them home for baths. More "I wish (STBX) was staying here", "Now that she's gone, etc". More reassurances from me.

Upshot for me is that STBX is talking a good game about how the boys will be, no negative effects, how we handle it, no problem, no regrets, etc etc but I have realized that she has blocked ANYTHING contrary to her thinking even when right in front of her! And turning it around on me. Crying over a toy - my a**!

Spoke with my mother (who I'm thinking of referring to TAM to give Conrad and HappyMan a run for the money) and she said this comes from having to deny the reality of her step-father emotionally abusing her and her mother not intervening and choosing him over her own child. And the altered reality she had to create as a coping mechanism which is manifesting here to avoid the real situation. And also not seeing or admitting how we were bending over backwards to see her parents in CA when they had no real motivation to see her family here.

Not that this realization does any good now or would even be acknowledged if I brought it up. This leads my mom to think STBX is a very damaged person.

On a positive note, I got a $50 haircut (with surprise facial) today at a new salon (as STBX and I have gone to the same one nearby for 2 years) so fresh start, went to the gym, and went tanning. So a little "me" day.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

It is good that you vent here. Stop wasting time with your STBX.

Your Mom is right. She is damaged goods.

Focus on you. Focus on the boys.

And you know what. Be glad she showed up to see the boys.

Lets see if it continues. All you can pray for now is that she continues to be a good and better Mom.

Because as a wife she sucks. And I think you have been together for so long you do not even realize it.

She is out. Make it great. Boys house for now.

Get that bitterness behind. It will not happen over night.

And in a few months or a year you will be ready to replace her.

It won't be hard!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

HappyMan is right, as always. 

Here's the thing, Soca - you're doing it. As awful as this all is, you're apparently managing to provide a stable home for those boys. I think it's the true measure of a man, that can stare this kind of B.S. in the face and still carry on with dignity. 

Hang tough.


----------



## happyman64

It really is simple Soca.

The sooner you two can reach an agreement the sooner both of your lives can move on.

Is she a fool? Probably.
Is she lost? Yes.
Is it your problem anymore?No.

Your wife is no longer yours to save.

But she is trying to keep it amicable. You should too!

Because the faster you can be a little happy about the new situation the sooner you can move on.

My father told me something wise about women when I met my future wife.

He said "Look at their mother because in 20 to 30 years that is whom they will become".

He was right. Never forget that lesson.

Thank God my MIL is a gem!

Peace.

HM64


----------



## staystrong

happyman64 said:


> It really is simple Soca.
> 
> The sooner you two can reach an agreement the sooner both of your lives can move on.
> 
> Is she a fool? Probably.
> Is she lost? Yes.
> Is it your problem anymore?No.
> 
> Your wife is no longer yours to save.
> 
> But she is trying to keep it amicable. You should too!
> 
> Because the faster you can be a little happy about the new situation the sooner you can move on.
> 
> My father told me something wise about women when I met my future wife.
> 
> He said "Look at their mother because in 20 to 30 years that is whom they will become".
> 
> He was right. Never forget that lesson.
> 
> Thank God my MIL is a gem!
> 
> Peace.
> 
> HM64



Hmm.. I wish my STBX was like my MIL, but she is more like my FIL (he cheated and divorced MIL).


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> It really is simple Soca.
> 
> The sooner you two can reach an agreement the sooner both of your lives can move on.
> 
> Is she a fool? Probably.
> Is she lost? Yes.
> Is it your problem anymore?No.
> 
> Your wife is no longer yours to save.
> 
> But she is trying to keep it amicable. You should too!
> 
> Because the faster you can be a little happy about the new situation the sooner you can move on.
> 
> My father told me something wise about women when I met my future wife.
> 
> He said "Look at their mother because in 20 to 30 years that is whom they will become".
> 
> He was right. Never forget that lesson.
> 
> Thank God my MIL is a gem!
> 
> Peace.
> 
> HM64


Guys - thanks for all the encouragement! Yes I'm glad I vent here as well as I'm aware of the tolerance levels of real life friends  

However, I did get together with one of our best friends today for a coffee meeting which ended up lasting 2 1/2 hours and bringing him up to speed on the last several weeks. HappyMan 64 - he said the same things fool - probably, lost - yes, my problem - only when concerning the boys. He is furious though about this as he is a real family man who has done a lot of work on his marriage in counselling, etc and they've been together 17 years. All that experience allowed him to see pretty much what we've discussed on here. He was proud of the work I've done on educating/working on myself. 

Since he knows us both very well I was able to share and discuss more about my concerns about STBX possibly returning to addictive behaviors, etc. He and his W both have tried without me knowing to get STBX to commit to MC for 6 months or so but realized that was not being received and have let it go. He said STBX will need to learn the hard way (or not) as she's very stubborn. Also that I'm not up against the issues in our marriage but rather the ingrained issues from her childhood.

He did point out that I wanted the "gold standard" for my kids and in this case, it's not working out and acknowledged what a disappointment that is for me. 

So today I took the boys to school, took one to a dentist appointment, he and I had lunch, dropped him back off and met my friend (not much work today got done ). STBX called me to say she had dropped off cookies for the boys and visited them at the after-school program they attend. On one hand, I'm glad they are seeing her but on the other is it confusing to them? Don't know but she said her IC was OK with it. STBX let me know that she was sobbing all day yesterday and had an emergency IC appointment.

All in all, I feel OK. Watching the boys closely but they didn't bring this up too much today. STBX called at bedtime and spoke with them. Yes she does want to keep this amicable and that is the line I'm trying to walk. I think we may have some movement next week.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> STBX let me know that she was sobbing all day yesterday and had an emergency IC appointment.


An Overview of the Drama Triangle


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

You're doing great. Having a friend to talk to makes an incredible difference, doesn't it?

I've got a sister who has stood by me through this. She's listened to my crap day after day and I'd be just lost without her support. 

Like I always say, hang tough.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> An Overview of the Drama Triangle


Yes - amazing stuff. Thanks!


----------



## soca70

Not much of an update here. 

My little dark cloud (STBX) is returning this evening for the rest of the week.

Meanwhile, Hurricane Soca's Parents will be blowing back into town this weekend from Florida. I have scheduled an appointment with the attorney next Tue for me and them to attend. I've been receiving a lot of "armchair quarterbacking" and they are beyond ballistic at this point with STBX (to be fair they said they'd have the same reaction if that was me and would have kicked my a** seven ways since Sunday if I had pulled this stunt with the family). I have to get them on the same page as me and the lawyers since they are demanding that I change the house locks, etc and don't quite get the legal ramifications. Basically they are looking to wipe all traces of STBX off the face of the Earth. Yes this seems extreme but my mother did ask me how much it would cost to pay her off to move back to Los Angeles - and was 75% serious. So if I do not manage them the right way, I will never hear the end of how I "rolled", etc. The backstory (as told by STBX) of our marriage plus the fact of how close we all were has really gotten to them and truthfully I have never seen my father so angry. 

On the plus side, my IC said I'm doing really well handling all this and will be OK. I said "what's the alternative? Lie down and die? Not get out of bed?" I let her know the input from all these stories on TAM has been incredibly helpful in me getting through this so I thank everyone again!


----------



## happyman64

> Also that I'm not up against the issues in our marriage but rather the ingrained issues from her childhood.


Soca

Your friend is a wise man.

As time goes by and life settles to a new routine for all of you your wife is going to change.

You are going to see the real her. A "her" that you have not seen since you first met her.

She might go back to drugs but I doubt it. She will experiment with different men because she thinks that a new man will cure some if not all her problems.

But as you stand back and watch her you will realize just how messed up she is in her head and in her heart.

It has very little to do with you. It has very little to do with your marriage.

That is why you scratch your head when dealing with her.

That is why you will never get her back at this time no matter what you do.

She needs to go on her own. She needs to find herself. She needs to find what is missing.

Sadly most of us know what is missing and where it is. But she will not listen.

The difference is that you on your own are happy (current circumstances aside). You make your own happiness.

She thought a knight in shining armor steering her away from drugs would make her happy.

She thought a husband with a good job that would build her a beautiful home would make her happy.

She thought having a family and doing anything at any cost to have those beautiful boys would make her happy.

Now you have learned that nothing makes her happy.

Just be grateful if she continues to be a good mom to your boys. Because that is all she is capable of being at this time.

And remember, it really has very little to do with you!


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> Your friend is a wise man.
> 
> As time goes by and life settles to a new routine for all of you your wife is going to change.
> 
> You are going to see the real her. A "her" that you have not seen since you first met her.
> 
> She might go back to drugs but I doubt it. She will experiment with different men because she thinks that a new man will cure some if not all her problems.
> 
> But as you stand back and watch her you will realize just how messed up she is in her head and in her heart.
> 
> It has very little to do with you. It has very little to do with your marriage.
> 
> That is why you scratch your head when dealing with her.
> 
> That is why you will never get her back at this time no matter what you do.
> 
> She needs to go on her own. She needs to find herself. She needs to find what is missing.
> 
> Sadly most of us know what is missing and where it is. But she will not listen.
> 
> The difference is that you on your own are happy (current circumstances aside). You make your own happiness.
> 
> She thought a knight in shining armor steering her away from drugs would make her happy.
> 
> She thought a husband with a good job that would build her a beautiful home would make her happy.
> 
> She thought having a family and doing anything at any cost to have those beautiful boys would make her happy.
> 
> Now you have learned that nothing makes her happy.
> 
> Just be grateful if she continues to be a good mom to your boys. Because that is all she is capable of being at this time.
> 
> And remember, it really has very little to do with you!


Very well said HM


----------



## happyman64

Our posts crossed Soca. I was thinking of you since yesterday but did not have a chance to write.

And I get it about parents.

My Mom and Dad would have been mad at my wife or I if we considered leaving the marriage.

But then again they have been married 52 years and dating since they were 7 years old.....

And that is the truth.

All you can do is deal with it and let them hear the attorney. And if they want more of a say then tell them to pay the legal fees!:rofl:


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Our posts crossed Soca. I was thinking of you since yesterday but did not have a chance to write.
> 
> And I get it about parents.
> 
> My Mom and Dad would have been mad at my wife or I if we considered leaving the marriage.
> 
> But then again they have been married 52 years and dating since they were 7 years old.....
> 
> And that is the truth.
> 
> All you can do is deal with it and let them hear the attorney. And if they want more of a say then tell them to pay the legal fees!:rofl:



Thanks, HM. Mine have been married 45 and together since 8th grade. And have offered to cover some of the legal costs to ensure the outcome that is in their best interests .

So right now STBX is sitting by the fireplace in my former office now living room and I'm in her old one, now mine and directly across looking through the French doors, writing on TAM. Maybe her ears are burning?

Boys' best friend came over for dinner as his mom couldn't pick him up from school in time.

Mixed feelings about her staying here these off and on nights now. Things had been running more smoothly with just the 3 of us the last couple of nights.

I could see our one son acting out a lot in anger tonight (and from the reports we received, today at school) at bathtime (which I had to take over) and bedtime but coupled with this almost hysterical need to sleep with STBX in the guest bedroom tonight.

My other son was talking to me about wanting to sleep in the bunk beds at the rental. And that it seemed nice but very small which I could tell was bothering him and talking about the new house that STBX had mentioned buying (unrealistically). I tried to help him get his thoughts out and he said he wanted to stay here most of the time as this is "my house and where I live" and over there on weekends or 2-3 days a week.

Just when I'm start leaning toward agreeing to 50/50 today, I get it with this.:scratchhead:


----------



## happyman64

Just my opinion but if she is a good mom and has her place setup for them then 50/50 is fair.

The boys will adjust.

I know it hurts. And I know when they complain, show fear or frustration or just act up it hurts even more.

But as much as we try to protect them; we as parents realize how hard it is to protect them.

Just be there for them.

Just encourage them to talk.

And I think they will follow your lead when it comes to their mother. After all Soca, you are their father!


----------



## staystrong

Soca, have you or your parents been in communication with her fam recently? If so, what did they say?

Great job on continuing to provide the stable base for the kids.


----------



## ReGroup

Great Job Soca! I like your parents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

One of the things I love about your thread is that despite your misery and perpetual angst, your days are so obviously full of family, children, work, and just trying to get it done. 

Lesser men would have crumbled. 

You really have every reason to be proud.


----------



## soca70

staystrong said:


> Soca, have you or your parents been in communication with her fam recently? If so, what did they say?


SS - I haven't spoken with STBX's parents since this happened. I thought about it but then reconsidered as I didn't see where that was going to get me anywhere. If you have checked out the backstory, STBX's family is what I like to decsribe as "fluid" - multiple marriages, step-kids, half-siblings, grown kids that have been "excommunicated" for 15 years - a real mess. I always got along with ILs but they are 2000 miles away and not involved in our lives much (at all) and that has been an issue between me and STBX. 

The feedback I heard was that MIL told STBX that "life is short so you have to do what makes you happy" - never mind you have a family, commitments, responsibilities. She wrote a letter in a Christmas card to me according to STBX but it is sitting on my desk unopened - don't care to read it after hearing that.

MIL wrote my mother a Christmas card saying how we want happiness for our children and will all need to be there for the milestones in the boys' life, etc. My mom was incensed and said to me she doesn't need advice on how to be there for her grandkids as she IS there and what milestones is MIL planning on being here for now as she hasn't been to many so far? My mom didn't respond to this letter. Thinks MIL is a terrible mother who let her husband abuse her child ("i'd have lived in a cardboard box under a bridge before I let some man do that to my children!) and is amazed how MIL does not come visit STBX when she is in Los Angeles for work for two weeks 4 times a year even though they live an hour away. My parents have always been "iffy" with the ILs and this was the nail in that coffin.

I had pretty much written off the ILs after we were in Los Angeles for 2 weeks in April of 2012 and they saw my one son for 90 minutes the whole time. And this was the only time they had even seen him in 2 years. Does it make sense that I would have some serious pushback about spending $4K to travel to their house for 4 days over Thanksgiving?

Really haven't given them much thought as they've been "non-players" since we moved to Ohio 6 years ago and definitely not since.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Soca
> 
> One of the things I love about your thread is that despite your misery and perpetual angst, your days are so obviously full of family, children, work, and just trying to get it done.
> 
> Lesser men would have crumbled.
> 
> You really have every reason to be proud.


BW - that really made my day to hear that so thank you. 

What you may find through this like I did is perspective. Perspective on what is important in life. 

At the beginning of September, the foremost thoughts on my mind were:

1. How to get an end-of-season deal on a lawn irrigation system and my resentment about the cost over-runs on construction that caused me to not install one when we built this house and how I now had dead patches of grass in my front yard that drove me crazy and how the he!! do you re-seed this?

2. The Toyota Camry lease was up in September and what a boring car that was. Do I buy a used 5-series BMW or should I get a used Jaguar because no one around here has one but don't they have a reputation for unreliability? Or is the Mini-cooper Countryman too small and looks like a clown car or is it a fun second car? Or play it safe and go with the VW Passat? Should we buy or lease? So I spent weeks test-driving these and talking about it.

3. Coming off a vacation in August to Cape Cod and worrying about paying all that off while completing a landscape project in the backyard that ended up cost doubling because of buried power lines that I wanted to pay cash for so I didn't have to carry a balance plus my parents wanted the $2000 that month for our share of the jetskis that STBX had committed to us buying for the lakehouse without me knowing.

AND THIS IS WHAT I LAID AWAKE AT NIGHT WORRYING ABOUT!

If nothing else, I have learned what's important the hard way.


----------



## soca70

Happy Katy- I saw an email response that you sent but for some reason it's not showing up here for some reason.

Basically, you had indicated my focus on material things. And yes my STBX had taken issue with me on this. I suppose it's been a way of showing validation of my choices, work, etc. Kind of a "Look here! I made it!" And as a form of protection - you can think what you want about me but I have _______. However, these "things" also brought me a lot of angst as I would then be resentful of the stress of having to pay for them.

The purpose of my post is to show that prior to D-day, I was consumed by this attainment of material "perfection" and not focused on my relationship, etc but these events have chnaged my views on this dramatically as to what is really important. It's an area I know I need to work on and will address in IC.

Thanks for keeping it "real" for me!


----------



## HappyKaty

I don't know where my post went. Maybe a mod didn't like it...

Anyway, yeah...my STBX is the exact same way, and it drives me insane! He wants to have the nicest of the nice, and then he works extreme amounts of OT to pay for it, and stresses out completely. But, it doesn't slow him down. I just noticed you had made a few remarks that made the similarities visible to me.

I think you're doing a great job, by the way.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> BW - that really made my day to hear that so thank you.
> 
> What you may find through this like I did is perspective. Perspective on what is important in life.
> 
> At the beginning of September, the foremost thoughts on my mind were:
> 
> 1. How to get an end-of-season deal on a lawn irrigation system and my resentment about the cost over-runs on construction that caused me to not install one when we built this house and how I now had dead patches of grass in my front yard that drove me crazy and how the he!! do you re-seed this?
> 
> 2. The Toyota Camry lease was up in September and what a boring car that was. Do I buy a used 5-series BMW or should I get a used Jaguar because no one around here has one but don't they have a reputation for unreliability? Or is the Mini-cooper Countryman too small and looks like a clown car or is it a fun second car? Or play it safe and go with the VW Passat? Should we buy or lease? So I spent weeks test-driving these and talking about it.
> 
> 3. Coming off a vacation in August to Cape Cod and worrying about paying all that off while completing a landscape project in the backyard that ended up cost doubling because of buried power lines that I wanted to pay cash for so I didn't have to carry a balance plus my parents wanted the $2000 that month for our share of the jetskis that STBX had committed to us buying for the lakehouse without me knowing.
> 
> AND THIS IS WHAT I LAID AWAKE AT NIGHT WORRYING ABOUT!
> 
> If nothing else, I have learned what's important the hard way.


Certainly puts things in perspective, doesn't it? 

Looking back at 1, 2, and 3 now you can probably find blessings in them all. Eye opening to see how we've failed to realize just how fortunate we really are at times.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> BW - that really made my day to hear that so thank you.
> 
> What you may find through this like I did is perspective. Perspective on what is important in life.
> 
> At the beginning of September, the foremost thoughts on my mind were:
> 
> 1. How to get an end-of-season deal on a lawn irrigation system and my resentment about the cost over-runs on construction that caused me to not install one when we built this house and how I now had dead patches of grass in my front yard that drove me crazy and how the he!! do you re-seed this?
> 
> 2. The Toyota Camry lease was up in September and what a boring car that was. Do I buy a used 5-series BMW or should I get a used Jaguar because no one around here has one but don't they have a reputation for unreliability? Or is the Mini-cooper Countryman too small and looks like a clown car or is it a fun second car? Or play it safe and go with the VW Passat? Should we buy or lease? So I spent weeks test-driving these and talking about it.
> 
> 3. Coming off a vacation in August to Cape Cod and worrying about paying all that off while completing a landscape project in the backyard that ended up cost doubling because of buried power lines that I wanted to pay cash for so I didn't have to carry a balance plus my parents wanted the $2000 that month for our share of the jetskis that STBX had committed to us buying for the lakehouse without me knowing.
> 
> AND THIS IS WHAT I LAID AWAKE AT NIGHT WORRYING ABOUT!
> 
> If nothing else, I have *learned* what's important the hard way.


But the key is that you have *learned*!

Most of us learn the hard way. But often it is the best method due to the pain along the way we are less likely to make those dumb decisions again.

And now as I put my oldest through Boston Univ. at $60k a year plus my two youngest through private school, I no longer yearn for the new Porsche 911 or Panamera. I just pat my trusty 2004 Lexus ES330 with 240,000 miles and on it and pray that she gives me another year of trouble free service.

We all continue to learn Soca. 

HM64


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> But the key is that you have *learned*!
> 
> Most of us learn the hard way. But often it is the best method due to the pain along the way we are less likely to make those dumb decisions again.
> 
> And now as I put my oldest through Boston Univ. at $60k a year plus my two youngest through private school, I no longer yearn for the new Porsche 911 or Panamera. I just pat my trusty 2004 Lexus ES330 with 240,000 miles and on it and pray that she gives me another year of trouble free service.
> 
> We all continue to learn Soca.
> 
> HM64


Thanks, HM. Yes I learned very fast to differentiate a need vs a want. For example, STBX and I agreed that she would get the Explorer so I needed an SUV for the boys on my own (all thoughts of BMWs, Audis, etc out the window). Leased (to keep payments down as low as possible) a end-of-year (best deal) mid-size Toyota one (as Toyota had the best financial incentives to re-lease). Made the decision in 2 days. Only 4th choice color left? No problem! Haven't ever given it a second thought.

Trying to do this with all decisions moving forward to make that differentiation and accept it.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Thanks, HM. Yes I learned very fast to differentiate a need vs a want. For example, STBX and I agreed that she would get the Explorer so I needed an SUV for the boys on my own (all thoughts of BMWs, Audis, etc out the window). Leased (to keep payments down as low as possible) a end-of-year (best deal) mid-size Toyota one (as Toyota had the best financial incentives to re-lease). Made the decision in 2 days. Only 4th choice color left? No problem! Haven't ever given it a second thought.
> 
> Trying to do this with all decisions moving forward to make that differentiation and accept it.


We could probably be good friends now.

From your description above of the things you used to worry about, I don't think we would have worked out so well back then.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> We could probably be good friends now.
> 
> From your description above of the things you used to worry about, I don't think we would have worked out so well back then.


Yes I believe I was referred to as a "sheep".


----------



## Bullwinkle

I stand by what I said last night, Soca. You are GETTING IT DONE. 

I've known guys who have been through half of what you have and are either in jail or are are destroying what's left of their lives with drugs or alcohol. 

It's not hard to imagine, your kids come home from school and you're passed out on the couch, bottle on the rug next you, you haven't shaved, you're as dirty as a Frenchman. 

You really HAVE learned a lot about what's really important in this life, a sort of George Bailey of the old Building and Loan, except in Ohio.


----------



## zillard

Bullwinkle is absolutely right. 

My best friend from high school found out his wife was cheating. He then saw his wife and the posOM driving around town in his car (OM driving) so he intentionally crashed his truck into his own car. Did jail time. Lost custody of his kids. 

Split second decision that ruined his life - because he did not maintain focus and control. 

Now he's deep into drugs and signing away all rights to his kids for good in order to avoid his ex pressing more charges and sending him back to lockup. I have no interest in having him in my life anymore either. 

The good ones make it to TAM. 32 pages later and you're even better.


----------



## Orpheus

nothing to see here. man acting like a man and taking care of his life and loved ones. move along.

good job Soca.


----------



## happyman64

zillard said:


> Bullwinkle is absolutely right.
> 
> My best friend from high school found out his wife was cheating. He then saw his wife and the posOM driving around town in his car (OM driving) so he intentionally crashed his truck into his own car. Did jail time. Lost custody of his kids.
> 
> Split second decision that ruined his life - because he did not maintain focus and control.
> 
> Now he's deep into drugs and signing away all rights to his kids for good in order to avoid his ex pressing more charges and sending him back to lockup. I have no interest in having him in my life anymore either.
> 
> The good ones make it to TAM. 32 pages later and you're even better.


That is very sad to see Z.

Maybe you can direct him here as a last ditch effort???


----------



## zillard

happyman64 said:


> That is very sad to see Z.
> 
> Maybe you can direct him here as a last ditch effort???


Don't even know how to contact him anymore. He went off the deep end and refuses to leave rock bottom. X and I let him live here for a month last summer to clean up. Caught him snorting stuff and stuck him on a greyhound back home.

Truly is sad.


----------



## helolover

This has been one of the most empowering threads i have read here in a long time. It is amazing to see how soca's story parallels mine: you wake up one day and think things are fine, and the next minute your life, and those of your kids, are thrown into disarray. I've learned a lot from this thread and I'm glad to see there are people out there that have experienced the same things. I appreciate the perspective.


----------



## soca70

BW, Z, and O - thanks for the words of encouragement and support! 

I'm not thinking what I'm doing is so extraordinary or courageous and my situation is the same as many others - WS checks out, no attempt at R, p****ing contest for custody. Just getting through as best I can with the advice of others who have been there or are here now. And trying to implement that wisdom into my day to day life now. And offering input to others if I think I may have something to add that may be helpful to their situation. 

As soon as that bomb dropped, my main drive has been to protect and take care of my boys - and doing whatever needs to be done to do that. 

What I have found is my experience in working a 12-step program years ago and keeping my sobriety for 13 years has been good "training" for this. I know emotions won't kill you and sometimes you just have to feel them to get to the other side. Mantras I learned like "One day at a time", "Doing what's in front of you", and "Suit up and show up" really apply here.

Z - yes 32 pages. I know guys like you have really taken your misfortune and turned it into an opportunity for introspection and self-improvement. It's been an inspiration to me as "hey if that guy can do this, so can I". 

Let's all just keep pressing forward.


----------



## soca70

helolover said:


> This has been one of the most empowering threads i have read here in a long time. It is amazing to see how soca's story parallels mine: you wake up one day and think things are fine, and the next minute your life, and those of your kids, are thrown into disarray. I've learned a lot from this thread and I'm glad to see there are people out there that have experienced the same things. I appreciate the perspective.


Helo - I'm glad that you have been able to take something positive away form my thread. A few months ago, I drew strength from daily reading Dewayne76, ForeverSad, Oncehisangel, Angelpixie, and Orpheus. Just knowing I wasn't alone in this was a godsend.

And like you, I've been amazed/saddened at the fragility of the life you know. Growing up, my parents and my friend's parents were all still married and I couldn't even comprehend not being in an intact family. My STBX had the opposite experience and I think really contributed to this being an acceptable decision for her. It breaks my heart for my boys but as HM64 says if I can learn something, I can also eventually teach them as well.

I read your back story and wish you the best.


----------



## soca70

OK - lovefest over.

An update...

Last night, STBX came into my office to discuss the custody agreement. She has agreed to me keeping the boys one extra night during the week for the school year so that they mainly go to school from this house which has been my preference. In the summer back to 50/50. And indicates we're close on the relocation language now.

I had let her know I had a meeting Tue w my attorneys and needed some sort of direction from her by then for next steps.

We then had a conversation about what we have been learning independently through this with IC (and TAM for me). We've been able to really identify the causes of the issues in our past inetractions. And I've been able to see why my reactions had been so hurtful to her (referencing the nugget of over-arguing crowding out the other person's opinion from Conrad) but then also why I was doing that (our parent-child relationship). STBX did say it was nice for us to be able to talk like this. If only I had these tools 18 months ago!


----------



## soca70

And we had our usual "Friday Family Movie Night" (the more things change...)


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> OK - lovefest over.
> 
> An update...
> 
> Last night, STBX came into my office to discuss the custody agreement. She has agreed to me keeping the boys one extra night during the week for the school year so that they mainly go to school from this house which has been my preference. In the summer back to 50/50. And indicates we're close on the relocation language now.
> 
> I had let her know I had a meeting Tue w my attorneys and needed some sort of direction from her by then for next steps.
> 
> We then had a conversation about what we have been learning independently through this with IC (and TAM for me). We've been able to really identify the causes of the issues in our past inetractions. And I've been able to see why my reactions had been so hurtful to her (referencing the nugget of over-arguing crowding out the other person's opinion from Conrad) but then also why I was doing that (our parent-child relationship). STBX did say it was nice for us to be able to talk like this. * If only I had these tools 18 months ago*!


Sorry you did not know us then Soca!

But the truth is you would most likely be heading in the same direction.

Some people have to learn the hard way.

And I think your wife is like that.

But no matter, your situation/relationship does sound better and that will make the D easier.


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> I'm not thinking what I'm doing is so extraordinary or courageous and my situation is the same as many others - WS checks out, no attempt at R, p****ing contest for custody. Just getting through as best I can with the advice of others who have been there or are here now. And trying to implement that wisdom into my day to day life now. And offering input to others if I think I may have something to add that may be helpful to their situation.
> 
> As soon as that bomb dropped, my main drive has been to protect and take care of my boys - and doing whatever needs to be done to do that.


Heroes are the people that show up and do the work. Shut up. And take a look in the mirror.

Except for "if, if, if, if, if".

C'mon champ. You know better.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> OK - lovefest over.
> 
> An update...
> 
> Last night, STBX came into my office to discuss the custody agreement. She has agreed to me keeping the boys one extra night during the week for the school year so that they mainly go to school from this house which has been my preference. In the summer back to 50/50. And indicates we're close on the relocation language now.
> 
> I had let her know I had a meeting Tue w my attorneys and needed some sort of direction from her by then for next steps.
> 
> We then had a conversation about what we have been learning independently through this with IC (and TAM for me). We've been able to really identify the causes of the issues in our past inetractions. And I've been able to see why my reactions had been so hurtful to her (referencing the nugget of over-arguing crowding out the other person's opinion from Conrad) but then also why I was doing that (our parent-child relationship). STBX did say it was nice for us to be able to talk like this. If only I had these tools 18 months ago!


Would you have listened?


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good for you, Soca. I'm not kidding, I'm really impressed with the kind of progress you're making. You're starting to sound like K.C. With the ability to really try and perform that painful self-introspection. 

I'm jealous. If my WS and I were to have a similar conversation, I'd probably end up making faces at gopher or my likely, grinding a grapefruit in her mug.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Would you have listened?


Honestly maybe not. Sometimes it takes hitting rock bottom to find the motivation to make these changes.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Good for you, Soca. I'm not kidding, I'm really impressed with the kind of progress you're making. You're starting to sound like K.C. With the ability to really try and perform that painful self-introspection.
> 
> I'm jealous. If my WS and I were to have a similar conversation, I'd probably end up making faces at gopher or my likely, grinding a grapefruit in her mug.


BW - I referred a TAM friend to your thread. Interesting response. His take was that the TAMmers on the board seemed to be egging you on for their amusement and he voiced concern. He indicated that although your story-telling was funny, the whole situation was sad as it's a real person facing real problems and there also should be guidance for introspection.

My thinking is that at the moment you had to do what you had to do to take immediate action to expose the affair. I don't have experience in this but others on here do and weree giving you practical advice and the steps to do so. In such a difficult position as yours was, I'm not sure there was time for self-reflection.

What I would suggest is continuing to work with an IC and stay on here while your dust settles. For me, it took months to get to a place where I could get over the shock and be ready to start looking at myself deeper.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> BW - I referred a TAM friend to your thread. Interesting response. His take was that the TAMmers on the board seemed to be egging you on for their amusement and he voiced concern. He indicated that although your story-telling was funny, the whole situation was sad as it's a real person facing real problems and there also should be guidance for introspection.
> 
> My thinking is that at the moment you had to do what you had to do to take immediate action to expose the affair. I don't have experience in this but others on here do and weree giving you practical advice and the steps to do so. In such a difficult position as yours was, I'm not sure there was time for self-reflection.
> 
> What I would suggest is continuing to work with an IC and stay on here while your dust settles. For me, it took months to get to a place where I could get over the shock and be ready to start looking at myself deeper.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Let me chime in Soca.

Your advice is spot on. Bullwinkle is very hurt. And a good IC will definitely help him with his emotions.

Good advice.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Honestly maybe not. Sometimes it takes hitting rock bottom to find the motivation to make these changes.


I didn't listen until I was in the same exact place.

That doesn't sound coincidental to me.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I didn't listen until I was in the same exact place.
> 
> That doesn't sound coincidental to me.


Same here.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> But no matter, your situation/relationship does sound better and that will make the D easier.


HM - I continue to struggle with this. 

The WS screws over the LBS yet LBS has to pull it together to make the D work. As others have said, you need to respect a person's decision, etc but very difficult to do with kids involved. 

A part of me does not want to give STBX the satisfaction of thinking that just because I'm pleasant that I'm in some sort of agreement.

Chalk this up under "Life's not always fair."

So STBX has the boys out all day for shopping for stuff for the playroom in the rental and then a birthday party for a kid in school. She wanted to do this today as she will be leaving for 2 weeks to Los Angeles later this week. Tomorrow, we split birthday party duty as we have two at the same time.

I'm just futzing around on here, paid bills, and will be checking out some work-out shoes with neon colors and maybe buying some work-out T-shirts. Not too exciting but am OK with the downtime.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

You just struck a chord. 

Wondering that pleasantness will be misinterupted as acceptance.


----------



## ReGroup

In my case... My pleasantness just pisses her off some more. 

Be the best you and who cares what they think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

Same here, RG. 

From now on I'm going to continue to be pleasant but I will caveat all of it with, "I don't accept SHYT!".


----------



## Conrad

Bullwinkle said:


> Same here, RG.
> 
> From now on I'm going to continue to be pleasant but I will caveat all of it with, "I don't accept SHYT!".


No crap needs to be taken.

BUT...

Work on the following:

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> No crap needs to be taken.
> 
> BUT...
> 
> Work on the following:
> 
> Cool
> 
> Firm
> 
> Dispassionate


Or as my X calls it, "dr phil"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

just read your thread soca70, first im sorry it sucks (been there) had a 6 month old boy when wife cheated D her and we had 50/50 custody. 8 1/2 years later i have him 5 of the 7 nights a week (school her idea) summer 4 on 4 off every other weekend.

your kids will be fine kids are resiliant. dont be her friend she is not yours but be civil and in the end everything will work out.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Morning, Soca, just checking in, hope the family is okay, hope you're hunched over a waffle iron or something domestic like that. 

Have a good one.


----------



## soca70

Thanks, BW! Spent the morning refereeing two boys. Now off to take one to Target to buy "Trash-Packs" with his allowance and on to an afternoon of birthday festivities at "World of Bounce". STBX is taking the other one to another party.

Have fun at McDonald's. As a frequent visitor to "Playland", I commiserate with you.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Almost lost her in the ball pit.


----------



## soca70

So only minor injuries from "World of Bounce" - good time. Boys had 3 birthday parties this weekend and we split the duties. We are in a very small school district (garduating class of approx 75 kids) so I see the same parents over and over at these things (which was one of the main draws of moving to this area). Of course now it's like, "Oh we visited with (STBX) yesterday." Drawback is everyone knows everyone's business. So far we've (or at least to my knowledge) kept this quiet. I don't really see any need to advertise at this point.

My parents came over late this afternoon. STBX retreated over to the rental to avoid them. My thinking is if you're OK with what you've done, why hide away? I went to dinner with my mother and one boy and the other one stayed home to watch NASCAR with my dad. 

My parents are going to Aruba for a week next Friday and STBX is leaving for Los Angeles for two weeks this Wednesday so I'll really be flying solo with the kids for awhile. I plan on taking them to my sister's to visit this coming weekend.

STBX came back for bedtime after my parents left (and my demonstration to my parents that I can still play sax after 20 years ). Asked about where we went to eat. Then she says "We need to take the boys to a Japanese steakhouse. They'll love it!" I'm just continuosly baffled by her. I can't get a grasp of what she thinks our relationship will be after this. This quasi-family of 4? So strange...


----------



## terrence4159

its not always the case but my XW tried the we can still be friends i said ha ha nope you cheated on me so when i divorce you im divorcing our friendship.

if you cant respect your husband you cant respect him as a friend, tell her you will stay civil but in no way friends. only communicate when it involves the kids tell her you dont give a crap about her personal life or life in general


----------



## terrence4159

ill give you the same offer ive given lots of guys, if you need some stress releif come on up here to idaho, ill take you out for some ******* man stress releif........shooting guns, assault rifles assault shotguns and the best sniper rifle money can buy (only 7 bucks a shot..lol,,only 6 grand for the gun)


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> So only minor injuries from "World of Bounce" - good time. Boys had 3 birthday parties this weekend and we split the duties. We are in a very small school district (garduating class of approx 75 kids) so I see the same parents over and over at these things (which was one of the main draws of moving to this area). Of course now it's like, "Oh we visited with (STBX) yesterday." Drawback is everyone knows everyone's business. So far we've (or at least to my knowledge) kept this quiet. I don't really see any need to advertise at this point.
> 
> My parents came over late this afternoon. STBX retreated over to the rental to avoid them. My thinking is if you're OK with what you've done, why hide away? I went to dinner with my mother and one boy and the other one stayed home to watch NASCAR with my dad.
> 
> My parents are going to Aruba for a week next Friday and STBX is leaving for Los Angeles for two weeks this Wednesday so I'll really be flying solo with the kids for awhile. I plan on taking them to my sister's to visit this coming weekend.
> 
> STBX came back for bedtime after my parents left (and my demonstration to my parents that I can still play sax after 20 years ). Asked about where we went to eat. Then she says "We need to take the boys to a Japanese steakhouse. They'll love it!" I'm just continuosly baffled by her. I can't get a grasp of what she thinks our relationship will be after this. This quasi-family of 4? So strange...


You ok with that?


----------



## happyman64

So strange? Not really.

This is the new normal. You can embrace it, you can try it.

I think she is afraid to leave you and the kids.

So she keeps pulling all of you back into the family unit.

Just step back and watch.

If you are uncomfortable with this new normal then say something.

Again this is not easy Soca. We know that.

Just watch her actions. Be aware like you are.

And decide what is good for you and what isn't.


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> So strange? Not really.
> 
> This is the new normal. You can embrace it, you can try it.
> 
> I think she is afraid to leave you and the kids.
> 
> So she keeps pulling all of you back into the family unit.
> 
> Just step back and watch.
> 
> If you are uncomfortable with this new normal then say something.
> 
> Again this is not easy Soca. We know that.
> 
> Just watch her actions. Be aware like you are.
> 
> And decide what is good for you and what isn't.


And, if you are not ok with it.

Tell her.

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for all the advice. I'm torn between what terrence recommends and what HM64 indicates. As Conrad asks "Am I OK with that?" , I'm not really sure. A part of me still wants to keep the family "together" for the kids but I'm not sure if that's healthy for detachment. Total 180 just doesn't feel right either. I think I will go with what HM64 says and just see how I feel and then make a decision.

I was just thinking of this birthday party we went to last April with our "old gang's" kids in Los Angeles and the contrast with the ones we do now. It was a 5 year old's party with a face painter that was also a make-up artist who worked Samuel Jackson's grandkid's party the weekend prior, a comparison of cosmetic procedures (and that was the men), a couple filming a pilot for a reality TV show, a margarita machine, and one of the mothers dressed like Stevie Nicks. Maybe the culture-shock of the Midwest was too much for us?


----------



## terrence4159

i had a 6 month old boy when we D he is a normal 9 year old boy today. we stayed civil we do nothing together infact i havent said 2 words to my XW in over a year my wife deals with her (civil also) cutting her off as a friend made it 139% easier to move on.


----------



## Stella Moon

terrence4159 said:


> ill give you the same offer ive given lots of guys, if you need some stress releif come on up here to idaho, ill take you out for some ******* man stress releif........shooting guns, assault rifles assault shotguns and the best sniper rifle money can buy (only 7 bucks a shot..lol,,only 6 grand for the gun)


Um...why it gotta be a man stress relief thing? :scratchhead:

What if I brought a Barrett 50 cal? Can I come?


----------



## zillard

Stella Moon said:


> Um...why it gotta be a man stress relief thing? :scratchhead:
> 
> What if I brought a Barrett 50 cal? Can I come?


Stella, dear... My pants just got tighter. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stella Moon

zillard said:


> Stella, dear... My pants just got tighter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well...I have a HK on my right thigh right now and my AR15 is slung across my chest...this is no lie!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

Read your latest posts with great interest. Firstly, culture shock between LA and small-town Ohio has gotta be real, especially for the kids. But I think you did the right thing, your kids will benefit long-term. 

I would find your arrangement with WS very difficult. While in many ways you are still a functioning family unit and that has to be good for your kids, the physical closeness of your wife has to be confusing, frustrating, maddening. One day she resents and despises you, the next day she wants he whole family to go to the Japanese steakhouse. 

I guess I can thank my WS for consistency, if nothing else. She is ALWAYS cold, nasty, vitriolic, won't stay in the same room with me. 

Don't know which is worse.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Soca
> 
> Read your latest posts with great interest. Firstly, culture shock between LA and small-town Ohio has gotta be real, especially for the kids. But I think you did the right thing, your kids will benefit long-term.
> 
> I would find your arrangement with WS very difficult. While in many ways you are still a functioning family unit and that has to be good for your kids, the physical closeness of your wife has to be confusing, frustrating, maddening. One day she resents and despises you, the next day she wants he whole family to go to the Japanese steakhouse.
> 
> I guess I can thank my WS for consistency, if nothing else. She is ALWAYS cold, nasty, vitriolic, won't stay in the same room with me.
> 
> Don't know which is worse.


Well to be clear, we live in a close-in suburb of the largest city in Ohio so we're not in Amish country  (but our lakehouse is fairly close and I have seen horse and buggies tied up to the local Wal-Mart before). We made a conscious decion not to raise the kids in LA mostly due to cost and also the culture. I don't want 13 year olds hanging out on Melrose. This is why our situation has been so disappointing to me. We did all these things for a "perfect" life for the kids and now look...

I've been fighting some kind of viral "grunge" for a few days and this morning after the kids got off to school, I crashed back into bed until about 11:45 AM. STBX called and invited me to lunch at 12:30 before our one son's family therapy session at 1:30.

During lunch, she indicated she's agreeing to the approx 60/40 schedule w me as primary and pretty much all of the relocation language. She had an IC appt this morning and the IC was proud of her to acknowledge my position. I let her know I would discuss with my lawyers tomorrow and get back on this. STBX also indicated that she will be discussing some of the contributing factors I brought up about her part last week as well.

Then she asked if I could drop her off to the airport Wed morning for her LA trip noting that I didn't have to do and she could ask a friend of ours. I said I could do it. (Again is this enabling behavior or just being decent?)

STBX will be taking the boys to gymnasatics tonight as I'm really tired today. (Of course when I asked, I get the usual pushback of "well I've got to finish this project before I leave...oh ok I guess I can).

We had not seen the family therapist since the last time I got so angry (yelling, etc) and this visit went much more calmly. It was for our one boy to start working again on some of his agressive defiant behavior at home. She said afterwards he spoke positively about how we "broke the news" and seemed pretty positive about it overall (but noted his brother was crying). I will make a follow up for him in about 2-3 weeks and scheduled an appt next week for my other son to talk with her about the situation to make sure he's OK or not.

After his appointment, STBX dropped S___ and I off and we had desserts at the restaurant and I then took him back over to the after-school program.

BW - it is very difficult for me to manage the closeness, the familiarity, the continual interaction. I have said previously (not in months) that if we can coordinate all this stuff so well, we should be able to make this work and a part of me still believes that. As I stated last night, I'm going to have to see how this works out going forward and what I need to do to feel OK about it and whether this is right for me or not. At the time, I don't know.


----------



## Conrad

This appears to be going according to her plan.

Appearance of happy family when she wants it, but no intimacy/affection for you.

It sounds like this might be hurting you inside.

Is it?

If this whole thing is a "Big #3", you've got to stop it.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca 

I agree with Conrad in that this whole arrangement is hurtful to you. 

Your posts continue to be inspiring in that they speak so clearly of a guy who is just trying his best to hold it all together, not lay down and die. I don't know why but I find some strength in that. I think it's the fact that you relate day to day life, WS met you for lunch, you're worried about your sons behavioral issues. You're not sitting in a dark room wringing your hands and hoping you die today. 

I would be the same way with WS - hey, we're making this work, we're pretty much a family unit, why in Gods name are we divorcing? Why won't you hold me when I need it ever so desperately?


----------



## happyman64

Soca

I think in your case detachment just takes longer.

While I agree with Conrad that this is your wife's plan I actually think this is a good plan.

Until she is gone from your home fulltime and the divorce is final.

Then I believe it will be time for Soca's plan.

And of course this period of transition is hurtful. She is casting you back in the pond.

But I ask you this. If she is not willing to work on the marriage why on earth would you want to be with her?

If she can be so selfish that she has not once said or admitted to you that she is destroying a great family for the purpose of finding personal fulfillment why on earth would you stay with her?

Soca I have said this before. Your wife is looking for happiness. It is staring right back at her. But she is damaged. So damaged that she cannot see it.

Your wife is basically not a happy person. She is unable to make herself happy. How sad is it to be a person that cannot make themselves happy. 

How on earth do you ever think she could make you or your boys happy?

What woman would give up anytime parenting her children let alone 60%???

You know the answer.

Detach.

And when this marriage is over heal.

And I guarantee you in a year you will know what type of woman you want and what type of woman will be right for your boys.

And sadly, I highly doubt your exwife will even make the list of top five choices.

You will see.

One day at a time Soca.

For now.

HM64


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> I think in your case detachment just takes longer.
> 
> While I agree with Conrad that this is your wife's plan I actually think this is a good plan.
> 
> Until she is gone from your home fulltime and the divorce is final.
> 
> Then I believe it will be time for Soca's plan.
> 
> And of course this period of transition is hurtful. She is casting you back in the pond.
> 
> But I ask you this. If she is not willing to work on the marriage why on earth would you want to be with her?
> 
> If she can be so selfish that she has not once said or admitted to you that she is destroying a great family for the purpose of finding personal fulfillment why on earth would you stay with her?
> 
> Soca I have said this before. Your wife is looking for happiness. It is staring right back at her. But she is damaged. So damaged that she cannot see it.
> 
> Your wife is basically not a happy person. She is unable to make herself happy. How sad is it to be a person that cannot make themselves happy.
> 
> How on earth do you ever think she could make you or your boys happy?
> 
> What woman would give up anytime parenting her children let alone 60%???
> 
> You know the answer.
> 
> Detach.
> 
> And when this marriage is over heal.
> 
> And I guarantee you in a year you will know what type of woman you want and what type of woman will be right for your boys.
> 
> And sadly, I highly doubt your exwife will even make the list of top five choices.
> 
> You will see.
> 
> One day at a time Soca.
> 
> For now.
> 
> HM64


Thanks, guys. Yes Conrad I agree I'm not OK with it and it is a #3 approach. I have been getting resentful about putting in the effort without any return. I know it's for the boys but still...

And I agree with HM, that this has been a protracted "limbo" where I haven't really been able to move forward until we are 100% physically separated. However that time is coming here soon so this thread will then take on a different tone I hope.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Thanks, guys. Yes Conrad I agree I'm not OK with it and it is a #3 approach. I have been getting resentful about putting in the effort without any return. I know it's for the boys but still...
> 
> And I agree with HM, that this has been a protracted "limbo" where I haven't really been able to move forward until we are 100% physically separated. However that time is coming here soon so this thread will then take on a different tone I hope.


The time will come to stand up to this.

It's cake eating.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> The time will come to stand up to this.
> 
> It's cake eating.


Yes I'm very aware of what this is. As you may recall I put the hammer down pretty soon after this all went down with the 180. Just with our living situation and the fact STBX wouldn't leave made that too emotionally difficult and stressful and the family therapist was concerned about the atmosphere for the boys. Plus didn't really achieve much. STBX knew what I was doing and why and frankly I think it came off looking worse for me.

Once 100% out of the house, I think a good 140 can be achieved


----------



## soca70

So met my parents for lunch today to prep for the attorney meeting this afternoon and my mom brought over some St Patrick's Day decorations for the house for the boys. 

Parents and I met with the attorney to discuss the custody strategy and the recent "gives" by STBX. Not to get into all the legal details, but we will be playing this fairly hardball to force an agreement hopefully by the 4/10 court date for the temporary custody hearing. STBX will be served a response to her filing while in Los Angeles.

Money well spent today just to get my parents on board and educated on this. We will be including a provision of no unsupervised visitation with FIL due to his past abusive behavior that STBX admits to and I've seen him demonstrate with one of his other grandkids. To be a fly on the wall when ILs hear about that....

If no agreement by 4/10, judge will consider the arguments and issue temporary custody arrangements approximately 60 days after. Which would put me into July before any schedule is put into effect. Which is 10 months after D-Day! I keep thinking MC would have been much easier for STBX . Let's see how badly STBX wants this done. 

Coffee afterwards with parents to recap. Then I stopped by urgent care and got an antibiotic presecription for my sinus infection and fluid in the ears. Put the boys to bed with STBX and now she's over packing at the rental for the LA trip. If I can drag out of bed tomorrow morning, I will drive her to the airport and a break for 2 weeks.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good for you, Soxa, it sounds like your day was really productive. And surely her being gone for two weeks has got be be a good thing.


----------



## Conrad

Bullwinkle said:


> Good for you, Soxa, it sounds like your day was really productive. And surely her being gone for two weeks has got be be a good thing.


He's going to be really sad when he realizes how much better he feels when he doesn't have to deal with her at all.


----------



## soca70

I was thinking today about how STBX said she cried all day on that Monday in her first night at the rental after breaking news to the boys. She said she just didn't want the boys think she was leaving them, etc. Not ONCE did she say she was crying because of how upset, confused, scared, angry they were. Only what their perception of her was. I'm really starting to think STBX is not "clicking on all cylinders" and I'm concerned about her not having a "checks and balances" influence. Thgis is why I'm spending so much time on this custody agreement. I cannot let the boys fall victim to her unrealistic thinking if something happens to me.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I was thinking today about how STBX said she cried all day on that Monday in her first night at the rental after breaking news to the boys. She said she just didn't want the boys think she was leaving them, etc. Not ONCE did she say she was crying because of how upset, confused, scared, angry they were. Only what their perception of her was. I'm really starting to think STBX is not "clicking on all cylinders" and I'm concerned about her not having a "checks and balances" influence. Thgis is why I'm spending so much time on this custody agreement. I cannot let the boys fall victim to her unrealistic thinking if something happens to me.


NOW YOU ARE TALKING

Stay at 50,000 feet.

This is spot on.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Agreed, Soca.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Agreed, Soca.


That's why I am pushing you hard on a custody strategy, BW. Unfortunately this is my area of expertise


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> That's why I am pushing you hard on a custody strategy, BW. Unfortunately this is my area of expertise


And it sucks to have this expertise....

Enjoy the break from your wife.

You will need it.


----------



## soca70

So this morning STBX and I dropped the kids off at school and then headed to the airport. Then she remembered her cell phone back at the house so we went back to get it. Then she remembered she had forgotten to drop off the rental key for the neighbor in case of emergency so another stop. Then half-way to the airport she realizes that she had forgotten to pack the outfit she was planning on wearing tomorrow to the office. Dropped her off at the airport and on my way out, a call saying she had forgotten to leave her heavy coat in the car and can I come back around and pick it up? So I did.

Then a bit later, she sends a pic of 3 birds sitting on a seat in the gate area for the boys (cute). Then later this afternoon, a text how the flight was delayed out of here and she almost missed the connection in Detroit but made it on as the last person on the plane but is now sweaty.

Last night as we were going over the schedule for the trip, I had this strong urge to embrace and kiss her. Hold the 2X4s because I refrained. But looking at this morning, this is where my frustration comes from. Like BW indicated earlier, which is worse having a STBX that obviously "hates" you or something like this? I really don't get it.


----------



## Conrad

Hurts being her gopher, doesn't it?


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Hurts being her gopher, doesn't it?


Which is what I was kind of feeling like but at the same time I really didn't mind. However, this may be cake-eating at its finest on display. I can assure you once we're 100% separated, there is no way I would do this.


----------



## soca70

soca70 said:


> Which is what I was kind of feeling like but at the same time I really didn't mind. However, this may be cake-eating at its finest on display. I can assure you once we're 100% separated, there is no way I would do this.


What I don't get are these little texts and updates and so forth. Maybe detaching for a WS is as difficult for the LBS?:scratchhead:


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> What I don't get are these little texts and updates and so forth. Maybe detaching for a WS is as difficult for the LBS?:scratchhead:


By passing out those crumbs, she can keep you as plan B, should she decide she's made a mistake.


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

How were you guys in the bedroom?


----------



## Bullwinkle

I'd have a lot of trouble dealing with what you are facing. The crumb dropping, the physical closeness, the annoying little texts. I'm a simple guy and I see it simply as in spite of all the SHYT she's put you threw, you're still crazy about her and all this stuff gets your hopes up. Only to be later crushed again. 

I agree, I don't know which is worse, your situation or mine. As I have whined and ranted on these pages for weeks now, mine is capable of almost inhuman feats of cold blooded cruelty. 

My gut feeling is this two weeks away from you and the kids could be very telling. She will have time to really reflect on all this, if this is really all she truly wants.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> So this morning STBX and I dropped the kids off at school and then headed to the airport. Then she remembered her cell phone back at the house so we went back to get it. Then she remembered she had forgotten to drop off the rental key for the neighbor in case of emergency so another stop. Then half-way to the airport she realizes that she had forgotten to pack the outfit she was planning on wearing tomorrow to the office. Dropped her off at the airport and on my way out, a call saying she had forgotten to leave her heavy coat in the car and can I come back around and pick it up? So I did.
> 
> Then a bit later, she sends a pic of 3 birds sitting on a seat in the gate area for the boys (cute). Then later this afternoon, a text how the flight was delayed out of here and she almost missed the connection in Detroit but made it on as the last person on the plane but is now sweaty.
> 
> Last night as we were going over the schedule for the trip, I had this strong urge to embrace and kiss her. Hold the 2X4s because I refrained. But looking at this morning, this is where my frustration comes from. Like BW indicated earlier, which is worse having a STBX that obviously "hates" you or something like this? I really don't get it.


Why on earth would you think she hates you. She just got done wiping her feet on you.

And now for the truth Soca, here is a little secret......

*She hates herself. *

Get back up to 50000 ft and watch. Especially while she is away.

And it was nice of you to do all that for her but stop for your sake.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Why on earth would you think she hates you. She just got done wiping her feet on you.
> 
> And now for the truth Soca, here is a little secret......
> 
> *She hates herself. *
> 
> Get back up to 50000 ft and watch. Especially while she is away.
> 
> And it was nice of you to do all that for her but stop for your sake.


Subtle much, HM? 

OK - to be fair, STBX did ask if I was OK with doing this and offered to make other arrangements plus even said something to me about if my parents knew I was taking her to the airport today. So she's not oblivious to this. And I went the other direction totally earlier on and didn't get much of a response either. I'm supposing I'm going along to get along at this point until she's out 100%.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Subtle much, HM?
> 
> OK - to be fair, STBX did ask if I was OK with doing this and offered to make other arrangements plus even said something to me about if my parents knew I was taking her to the airport today. So she's not oblivious to this. And I went the other direction totally earlier on and didn't get much of a response either. I'm supposing I'm going along to get along at this point until she's out 100%.


Taking her to the airport is one thing.

That's not what you did.


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> I can assure you once we're 100% separated, there is no way I would do this.


"once we're separated".

hm.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> I'd have a lot of trouble dealing with what you are facing. The crumb dropping, the physical closeness, the annoying little texts. I'm a simple guy and I see it simply as in spite of all the SHYT she's put you threw, you're still crazy about her and all this stuff gets your hopes up. Only to be later crushed again.
> 
> I agree, I don't know which is worse, your situation or mine. As I have whined and ranted on these pages for weeks now, mine is capable of almost inhuman feats of cold blooded cruelty.
> 
> My gut feeling is this two weeks away from you and the kids could be very telling. She will have time to really reflect on all this, if this is really all she truly wants.


We'll see. The last 2 week trip was 2 days after D-day and here we are now. I have no expectations.

On the plus side I have one of my favorite songs, "Dogs of Suburbia" by Pet Shop Boys on Pandora right now.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> How were you guys in the bedroom?


Depends on who you ask. I always thought OK. Interestingly, our sex life had increased a lot the last 12-18 months prior to D-Day. STBX had taken up running and gotten into fantastic shaped I think helped her self-confidence (and from what I've seen on here can be a warning sign).

I have been called a "horn dog" as I could go almost every night but she was content for about once a week. And I did have some resentment about almost always initiating.

If you recall from my earliest posts, STBX indicated she had never had that physically passionate "spark" for me and the last year had struggled with having sex (the word used was "cringe"). I believe this was due to the emotional disconnect that was also going on. Interesting though is that the Friday night before the Sunday of D-Day, STBX initiated while the kids were at a school event which I thought was pretty great. (Maybe not )


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Taking her to the airport is one thing.
> 
> That's not what you did.


It did turn out to be more of a production than anticipated. As you and I have discussed, we have a parent-child relationship and I have let go of any suggestions, directions, assistance with her planning. And you see the results...


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> "once we're separated".
> 
> hm.


Your point, sir? 

Yes I know we are separated but we're not in another sense. I don't know how AngelPixie did this for - what was it 17 months?


----------



## Orpheus

well, she's hardly patting herself on the back for it.

i don't get your enmeshment on the edges. like the airport thing, where you should have so obviously let her deal with her own life. And the parade that followed which underscored that. so when you bring up new, fresh linked lifestyle stuff... i have to wonder when you're gonna get off the nice guy horse and back to terra firma?


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> well, she's hardly patting herself on the back for it.
> 
> i don't get your enmeshment on the edges. like the airport thing, where you should have so obviously let her deal with her own life. And the parade that followed which underscored that. so when you bring up new, fresh linked lifestyle stuff... i have to wonder when you're gonna get off the nice guy horse and back to terra firma?


Yes fair. My IC doesn't get it, my parents and sister don't get it. I could have said "No get a cab or long-term park it" and let her deal with it. In the beginning, I was doing this (didn't help with moving the office, furniture for rental, nothing). Also please recall the not putting her stocking up when the boys and I decorated for XMas. Something like this just seems "small" to me and I believe percived as so (yes as I know what do I care?) I'm trying to walk a fine line between cordial and a d**k.

Really once she's out, this will get much easier to do I believe.


----------



## zillard

If she is done with you, then refusing to help her unnecessarily is not being a d!ck... even though it will feel that way at first.

If she wants to be single, that means no helping hand hubby.


----------



## Orpheus

^ this.

You also don't have to phrase it to yourself as hostile. Instead helpful. "I don't think it's a good idea considering everything...""I would feel better if we continued to go our own ways""I'm sorry but i don't think that's very healthy." you know... whatever. There is nothing "small" about the little things that you let bring you down.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Subtle much, HM?
> 
> OK - to be fair, STBX did ask if I was OK with doing this and offered to make other arrangements plus even said something to me about if my parents knew I was taking her to the airport today. So she's not oblivious to this. And I went the other direction totally earlier on and didn't get much of a response either. I'm supposing I'm going along to get along at this point until she's out 100%.



Yes, she asked, Soca -- but -- the most telling thing would have been her response if you had said you WERE too busy to take her to the airport, or you did want her to make other arrangements. I'd be shocked if her asking you that was anything more than rhetorical. No, she's not oblivious. She can tell herself she asked you first, but deep down, she knew you'd never tell her 'no.'


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Your point, sir?
> 
> Yes I know we are separated but we're not in another sense. I don't know how AngelPixie did this for - what was it 17 months?





Orpheus said:


> well, she's hardly patting herself on the back for it.
> 
> i don't get your enmeshment on the edges. like the airport thing, where you should have so obviously let her deal with her own life. And the parade that followed which underscored that. so when you bring up new, fresh linked lifestyle stuff... i have to wonder when you're gonna get off the nice guy horse and back to terra firma?





soca70 said:


> Yes fair. My IC doesn't get it, my parents and sister don't get it. I could have said "No get a cab or long-term park it" and let her deal with it. In the beginning, I was doing this (didn't help with moving the office, furniture for rental, nothing). Also please recall the not putting her stocking up when the boys and I decorated for XMas. Something like this just seems "small" to me and I believe percived as so (yes as I know what do I care?) I'm trying to walk a fine line between cordial and a d**k.
> 
> Really once she's out, this will get much easier to do I believe.


Well, since y'all are talking about me, I should jump in.  For the record: We did in-house sep for about 7 months, btw, then it was another 19 mos til divorce. R was never on the table once I said I was moving out.

It gets easier when you do a few things. 

If you know you are done with her, then *detach*. Doesn't matter if she's done with you, or on the fence, etc. 

If you know you're really tired of things the way they are, change them. Tell her 'No' if what she asks isn't convenient for you, or even if you just don't want her to stay in the habit of depending on you. Get used to being an individual, not part of a couple (on any level).

Don't worry so much if you look like a 'd!ck' or not. Chances are, she'll think that of you at some point, even if you're an angel.  

Don't stay enmeshed for the sake of your boys. Ex and I have been able to maintain a bit of a trading-off relationship so that we can switch off time when we'd have DS. That has worked out well, as we have pretty much equal need for it. But other than that, I no longer help DS with getting gifts for Ex, for example, and Ex didn't help DS make me a cake for my birthday this year. It would probably be nicer if we could both be there for DS that way, but it didn't work out, so we roll with it. I'll gladly cede that job to posGF.


----------



## angelpixie

And yes, given the chance, I'd do things very differently.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Get used to being an individual, not part of a couple (on any level).


This I think is the crux. My mother said I have to let go of the idea of our "family" and I haven't been able to do that yet. In the back of my mind, I keep that crazy hope alive for some kind of realization on STBX's part. And a part of me just doesn't want to let the dream go (despite the overwhelming evidence that I have no choice which I do realize). Oh I'm slowly getting there but it's a step by step progression.

I do like Orpeheus' recommendations on how to phrase the declining of requests for help - very useful.

As an update on the legal front, reviewed today with lawyer deal points of the custody agreement and they will be doing some hardcore mumbo jumbo with a motion and then we will present a final settlement offer to be accepted within 2 days of receipt or we go to court.

I took the boys after school to my parents' house for dinner and relayed this info to my parents. My mother took great pleasure in knowing that STBX will have to deal with making a very difficult decision while on her own in Los Angeles at the corporate office under the critical eye of the managing partner who preys on weaknesses. She said it's comeuppance for dropping the bomb on me and taking off for LA for two weeks a day later.


----------



## happyman64

> In the back of my mind, I keep that crazy hope alive for some kind of realization on STBX's part.


Like we couldn't tell.......

But I am going to tell you something you probably already know.

She will never reach that kind of realization until you are gone from her life. No longer her husband and no longer her friend.

And most likely she is incapable of reaching that realization.

Believe it!


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> She said it's comeuppance for dropping the bomb on me and taking off for LA for two weeks a day later.


Get prepared to be called a d!ck.  

HM is likely right. It would be surprising if she suddenly sees her culpability in any of this if she hasn't by this time. 

But that should not matter to you. You have given her what she wanted, and gone on with rebuilding your life.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I call my once "family" the "Original 4" now. It's not a negative association to what once was, it's just reality. Also helps reduce the triggering of what once was when I used to call it "My Family".

Re-association for mental preservation. Kids and myself are my family now, thinking like this helps me remain in the present and less in the past.

But I do get where you are coming from.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Get prepared to be called a d!ck.
> 
> HM is likely right. It would be surprising if she suddenly sees her culpability in any of this if she hasn't by this time.
> 
> But that should not matter to you. You have given her what she wanted, and gone on with rebuilding your life.


Oh, AP so true! And the FIL supervised visit clause - honestly I can't wait to hear back on that - but she will agree because she knows.

And you and HM are right, I don't think she'll ever see her part in this. I was just thinking about her job and how it was planned to be a stop-gap measure for 1-2 years while we transitioned here and she could never pull it together to take the steps necessary to transition here. And I heard about how much the job sucked, and how lonely she was not working in a office, and how she was being taken advantage of, and how her career was derailed, and the deadlines, and how boring it was, and how I had to take the kids away every other weekend so she could finish a rush project, and so and so got a higher raise because she was in the corporate office, and how I couldn't relate because I got to go places and see people, etc ad naseum for YEARS!

And when I pushed to have her fill out the paperwork for getting licensed in this state and offered to take the boys out of the house so she could get it done (and it still hasn't after 6 years), and me networking with lawyers in our neighborhood to gauge the payscale (because she was too hesitant to ask), and me coming up with plans to find a way to gain her some leverage, and me building a g******n house in a neighborhood where she could walk to the coffeehouse so she won't be so lonely. And I am non-supportive, riding her and unable to value her work! I finally got tired of all this BS and said "Look if you refuse to take the steps and choose to remain where you are, accept it and keep quiet because I can't listen to it anymore."

STBX sees none of this.


----------



## happyman64

> STBX sees none of this.


And that is why you need to *Let Her Go!*

Sucks. But she has left you no other choice. Hell, she never gave you a choice.


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## HappyKaty

happyman64 said:


> And that is why you need to *Let Her Go!*
> 
> Sucks. But she has left you no other choice. Hell, she never gave you a choice.


YES!

She is who she is. Sucks to suck.


----------



## Orpheus

To beat the dead horse you're on Soca: you're the only one still in that relationship. That fake relationship in your head where unicorns serve you crumpets. Stop being a d!ck to your future self and get onboard the tomorrow express. You're really quite wonderful when you give yourself a chance. 

I feel like I should make some sort of magical cat exit now. So I'm off!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

Orpheus said:


> I feel like I should make some sort of magical cat exit now. So I'm off!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

I think you're getting great advice and guidance from my fellow posters. Of course a lot of it is similar stuff to what I'm hearing, though obviously our situations are different. 

All I wanted to mention to you this morning was your blurb about letting go of the notion of family and how I agree so much. As you know, I have said repeatedly that that is surely the worst part. And your WS's seeming indifference to it. 

I can't go anywhere without seeing my "family" there. Local restaurants we used to go as a family, our church, the park. The ghost of my now defunct family hangs so heavily around these and myriad other places, a constant, gut-wrenching reminder of what should have been. 

I really understand how difficult it is, no matter how well-intentioned are peoples' advice to press on.


----------



## soca70

Thanks, everyone, for the reality checks and 2X4's! I was in some weird reflective mood yesterday and today is a new day. I'm looking forward (somewhat) to this 2 weeks on my own just to start getting used to the new "rhythm".

And doing what needs to be done with what's in front of me today:

1. Get boys fed/dressed/off to school - check
2. Work (this slow phase of work has been a godsend in order for me to deal with this other stuff)
3. Shovel snow off sidewalk and driveway
4. Take trash in
5. Review settlement offer for custody that lawyer will send today
6. Schedule appointment at lawyer for tomorrow to sign filing motion - check
7. Carpet measure appointment from Lowe's this afternoon to replace family room carpet (during this we got lax about crating the dog at night)
8. Check at Walgreen's to see if delivery of new "Trash Packs" arrived (kids are obsessed and know when the new ones come in each week)
9. Return call from yesterday from old friend (whose then-fledgling catering business catered our reception - one of the first gigs) and break the news
10. Pick boys up from school and figure out something for dinner (a well-recognized weakness on my part that will need addressing)

Today, I'm keeping it simple.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


>


And this was fantastic!


----------



## Orpheus

soca, come up with 2 or 3 outlandish way out of scope things for you to start or do with the boys in the next two weeks so that you have a brand new talking point/frame of reference in this new space.


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> soca, come up with 2 or 3 outlandish way out of scope things for you to start or do with the boys in the next two weeks so that you have a brand new talking point/frame of reference in this new space.


O - that's good advice. I will need to do some research for "outlandish" here in Central Ohio. 

When we planned for kids we were living in LA and this past year I took them for 2 weeks on one of STBX's trips to do all the things I wanted to do with them there - Santa Monica Pier, hiking at Runyon Canyon, the beach at Venice, USC Natural History Museum, downtown library, La Brea Tar Pits, etc. Things I loved to do as well. 

I need to find some activities that both they and I will enjoy that are "cool". My sister just bought a horse for her daughter so maybe something along those lines...(not buying but riding ) and they offered hot air ballooning at the stables...I will check into this and get back to you!


----------



## 06Daddio08

My son is almost 5 (close to the age of your twin boys) and he absolutely loves it when he's allowed to run around in his tighty whities and dance his butt off to music I put on the TV.

He thinks it's pretty outlandish, especially when I sing along to it and act like a goof with him. My daughter (who's almost 7) at times will either join in or spend the entire time laughing at him, especially when he's jumping around smacking his rear.


----------



## soca70

06Daddio08 said:


> My son is almost 5 (close to the age of your twin boys) and he absolutely loves it when he's allowed to run around in his tighty whities and dance his butt off to music I put on the TV.
> 
> He thinks it's pretty outlandish, especially when I sing along to it and act like a goof with him. My daughter (who's almost 7) at times will either join in or spend the entire time laughing at him, especially when he's jumping around smacking his rear.


Daddio - yes my kids love the "dance off" and the "dance party" to the Music Choice on TV. Good idea to have one! Thanks!


----------



## soca70

In fact, I heard that the City offers a breakdancing class for kids. I will need to check that out.


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> Daddio - yes my kids love the "dance off" and the "dance party" to the Music Choice on TV. Good idea to have one! Thanks!


I have my kids for 2 weeks at a time. Friday nights are always movie night, where I take them to Walmart and they get to pick some cheap snacks after daycare. When I get them on the Sunday they always ask me what new movie I have for them for movie night, they look forward to it.

Movies don't even have to be new releases either, they've recently watched Jumanji, E.T., they really liked the Princess Bride (minus the gigantic rat scene).

We cuddle on the couch and they usually fall asleep half way through, but it's cheap and something I do just with them. They look forward to it.


----------



## soca70

06Daddio08 said:


> I have my kids for 2 weeks at a time. Friday nights are always movie night, where I take them to Walmart and they get to pick some cheap snacks after daycare. When I get them on the Sunday they always ask me what new movie I have for them for movie night, they look forward to it.
> 
> Movies don't even have to be new releases either, they've recently watched Jumanji, E.T., they really liked the Princess Bride (minus the gigantic rat scene).
> 
> We cuddle on the couch and they usually fall asleep half way through, but it's cheap and something I do just with them. They look forward to it.


Yes we do Friday Family Movie Night also. Not sure how that's going to work in the future yet. And I have found the $5 movies at Target to be good deals as well - Snow Puppies, The Return of Snow Puppies (or something like that), Beverly Hills Chihuahua, etc)


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> O - that's good advice. I will need to do some research for "outlandish" here in Central Ohio.
> 
> When we planned for kids we were living in LA and this past year I took them for 2 weeks on one of STBX's trips to do all the things I wanted to do with them there - Santa Monica Pier, hiking at Runyon Canyon, the beach at Venice, USC Natural History Museum, downtown library, La Brea Tar Pits, etc. Things I loved to do as well.
> 
> I need to find some activities that both they and I will enjoy that are "cool". My sister just bought a horse for her daughter so maybe something along those lines...(not buying but riding ) and they offered hot air ballooning at the stables...I will check into this and get back to you!


How about some indoor rock climbing.

It is safe. All 3 of you can do it.

It is not too expensive. The boys will get tired.

And you might be able to check out some cute butts while looking up without getting slapped. Bonus!!


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> How about some indoor rock climbing.
> 
> It is safe. All 3 of you can do it.
> 
> It is not too expensive. The boys will get tired.
> 
> And you might be able to check out some cute butts while looking up without getting slapped. Bonus!!


That's another great idea. One of mine is already quite the climber on rock walls at fairs, etc. and really enjoys it. The other one is a little apprehensive but if we do it as a group I think he'd get into it. Thanks!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> That's another great idea. One of mine is already quite the climber on rock walls at fairs, etc. and really enjoys it. The other one is a little apprehensive but if we do it as a group I think he'd get into it. Thanks!


Have them bring a friend as a "spine stiffener"


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## HappyKaty

Soca, are you near Dayton?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Have them bring a friend as a "spine stiffener"


For me or him?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> For me or him?


All of the above


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> Soca, are you near Dayton?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I live in Columbus and my sister's family lives in Dayton.

I just made plans in Dayton for 3/16-3/17 with her to take the boys to a school festival that their cousin (who they love!) is working on Saturday, a volley game, and I will be the overnight babysitter for the boys, their cousin, and my sister's husband's 9 year old Saturday night. Boys will love a big "sleep-over" and we can do movies, etc. And then Sunday, we will go to the stables and brush the horse and maybe ride a bit as well.

This weeked they have a b-day party at their best friend's house early afternoon Sunday and then a scout outing to the Conservatory and Botanical Garden later afternoon for the indoor butterfly exhibit and they have scheduled a "release" for us while there.

I'm going to look into the rock climbing for this Saturday and Friday they have a Kids Night event at school from 6-9 PM that they enjoy.

Guys - thanks so much for these ideas!!!


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> I live in Columbus and my sister's family lives in Dayton.


Sweet! I'll be in Dayton in a few weeks. We should meet up for lunch or a coffee!


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> Sweet! I'll be in Dayton in a few weeks. We should meet up for lunch or a coffee!


That sounds great! Just let me know a few days in advance. Dayton is only about an hour away and I work out of the house so my schedule is flexible.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> That's another great idea. One of mine is already quite the climber on rock walls at fairs, etc. and really enjoys it. The other one is a little apprehensive but if we do it as a group I think he'd get into it. Thanks!


I thought my nieces are crazy but my youngest took to it like a duck in water.

It is great exercise and builds confidence. My youngest is 11 but I saw little kids going crazy and having fun.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sounds like a good weekend coming up, Soca. If nothing else, you've got WS out of the picture and don't have to deal with her input, physical closeness, etc. 

Saturday night sounds the best, true male bonding, couple pizzas and an old copy of Robocop, no Nicolas Sparks stories or any movie that ever mentions the dreaded R word, RELATIONSHIPS.


----------



## soca70

So today is where some of the "rubber hits the road". I have an appointment this afternoon with my lawyer to sign the counter-claim custody motion and have that submitted to court today. Had a stratgey session with my attorneys late yesterday where this is designed to put the fear of God into STBX and then my lawyer will contact hers immediately afterward with the deal points of a settlement offer which she will have only a few days to accept before being withdrawn. This is going to hit STBX like a ton of bricks on a Friday afternoon in the corporate office in LA and the weekend where no action can be taken and no physical access to her "emergency" IC sessions or lawyer. Oh plus I have to go "dark" and let everything be handled by the lawyer. Goal is to force an agreement before court.

Amazingly, I actually feel bad/sympathy for STBX. Had a long talk with my parents last night and they said "Look, you've been blindsided twice, given no opportunities to work though the issues to save the family, she's accepted no responsibility on her part, has not given any real consideration for the boys' feelings, been not entirely upfront through your entire relationship, came into this marriage with nothing but debt, rode your coattails, only cares what the boys will think of her, displayed poor judgment throught this process, and is actively seeking out new relationships - why on Earth do you feel bad for HER?" I've discussed this with my IC previously and she told me it's because basically I'm a "good and fair" person - or maybe as Conrad says, a doormat.

My parents finally said "You've got to harden your heart and do the right thing for you and the kids. There's something "off" with STBX and you've got to protect them as much as possible."

I (and anyone following along on this thread) know all this is true but it is so difficult for me to reconcile the reality of today with my perceptions of the past. I also see that as a common theme with others which is why this process can be so painful. 

And then I also remember back in Sept/Oct when STBX drops the bomb and takes off for two weeks leaving me barely able to function and having to take care of the boys all on my own and the panic, anxiety, physical and emotional pain, doubledosing the anti-anxiety meds just to keep from shaking, etc and then I don't feel so bad after all.

This too shall pass.


----------



## happyman64

Gotta say Soca your Mom and Dad are right on the money.

You do need to toughen up and protect the boys.

And I do not know you or your wife but I have to say something albeit reluctantly.

Your wife only cares what the boys think of her. But I feel that is half truth. 

I think she does not want to look like the bad parent or bad mom.

I think deep down there is a resentment that biologically the boys are not "hers".

And if she got really low or down in her life she would leave the boys behind as well.

She has walked away from everything else in her life with very little concern or thought it seems to me.

What makes you think she would not leave behind her boys as well.

In my mind there is very little difference between our marriage and our family. Fortunately for me Mrs Happy shares that same belief......


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> it is so difficult for me to reconcile the reality of today with my perceptions of the past. I also see that as a common theme with others which is why this process can be so painful.
> 
> This too shall pass.


Precisely! One of TAM's major recurring themes is; "How could a marriage and a love that started out so great, blow up like this?" Also: "I never thought this would happen to me!" 

Glad you have a plan in place and are moving forward. Hang in there!


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Gotta say Soca your Mom and Dad are right on the money.
> 
> You do need to toughen up and protect the boys.
> 
> And I do not know you or your wife but I have to say something albeit reluctantly.
> 
> Your wife only cares what the boys think of her. But I feel that is half truth.
> 
> I think she does not want to look like the bad parent or bad mom.
> 
> I think deep down there is a resentment that biologically the boys are not "hers".
> 
> And if she got really low or down in her life she would leave the boys behind as well.
> 
> She has walked away from everything else in her life with very little concern or thought it seems to me.
> 
> What makes you think she would not leave behind her boys as well.
> 
> In my mind there is very little difference between our marriage and our family. Fortunately for me Mrs Happy shares that same belief......


HM - I'd invite you over to join some of our little round-table discussions as you are right on point with what we've been discussing the whole time. 

The settlement agreement is designed with safeguards for "worst-case" scenarios shy of full custody. My parents, friends, IC have the same concern about STBX not being able to "make it" here on her own as she has no real ties to Ohio besides the boys now. And, I have one boy who is a handful (and more) at 6 that I can see really being difficult as a teenager. My parents said they could see STBX saying something like well they're not mine anyway and bailing instead of sticking it out. Of course, I said "I could never imagine..." but then even in my previous worst-case scenario planning, I didn't even consider this situation either. Awakening, yes I was guilty of that thinking too.

I could easily see now if something were to happen to me, STBX moving back to LA for work, family, and friends with the kids and renting some apartment in a marginal (at best) neighborhood and putting them in public schools and convincing herself that the socio-economic "diversity" would be a positive for them. In reality, they would be the "diversity" among a bunch of gang-bangers, etc in some crappy school and eaten alive. I know this as we researched all the districts that made sense for her commute to downtown LA for work and why we moved here as the best option for success. And she does not make the money for private schools. Even together we didn't make the money for a house payment and private schools in LA. 

I have realized that STBX will do what she wants and spin any collateral damage in some kind of positive light. Which is why I'm concerned about not having the "checks and balances". So this is designed for those checks and balances to be put in place. The hope is that STBX continues to be a good parent and none of this is necessary but now is the time to get this set up instead of later when issues may arise.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca -

You feel some reluctance for two reasons:

There's a big part of you that stills loves this woman and your most fervent secret wish is that this could still all be sorted out, that your family could be reunited, that your wife was capable of the kind of love you once thought she was.

You realize that everyone, your parents, your friends, your attorneys, your IC, when they say that she is "off", that she just isn't firing on all cylinders. And because you love her still, you are still capable of mercy and restraint with something she's made almost too easy, like shooting fish in a barrell or stomping on baby chicks (sorry).

You know you have to follow through with this, if only for the sake of your boys. In my opinion, your remaining love for and reluctance to hurt your wife is something to be admired.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Soca -
> 
> 
> There's a big part of you that stills loves this woman and your most fervent secret wish is that this could still all be sorted out, that your family could be reunited, that your wife was capable of the kind of love you once thought she was.
> 
> .


Pathetic but true - but I have got to act "as if" I don't to move on.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Pathetic but true - but I have got to act "as if" I don't to move on.


It's not pathetic.

You actually mean the words you say.

And, you keep your word.

Nothing pathetic about that.


----------



## Orpheus

Soca, again... shift your perspective. Divorce is opposition by definition but doesn't have to be war. Your wind up to this and your guilt a few posts up thread come from a position of feeling bad about what you're doing to stbxw. Change your shift from us/her to what you are doing for you and how you need to move forward from here for your family.

Yes, there will be some blood in the water but that's the nature of the beast. Live honestly within your rules and you'll be fine. Your stbxw isn't a vitcim of your actions; she's a participant in the divorce.


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> Soca, again... shift your perspective. Divorce is opposition by definition but doesn't have to be war. Your wind up to this and your guilt a few posts up thread come from a position of feeling bad about what you're doing to stbxw. Change your shift from us/her to what you are doing for you and how you need to move forward from here for your family.
> 
> Yes, there will be some blood in the water but that's the nature of the beast. Live honestly within your rules and you'll be fine. Your stbxw isn't a vitcim of your actions; she's a participant in the divorce.


O - true. I'm getting a little wound up/anxious about this today and I have to keep the perspective.

Now it's my turn to take some "real" action and not by my choice. By doing this, it forces me out of the sort if weird denial I've been - which is very uncomfortable.

I was just thinking millions of people do this every year so why am I so hung up on this? Why do I feel the need to come on TAM to discuss this and read/comment about other's situations? Do most people just "get over it" and move on? Or do they just struggle with themselves? As I've said before, this would have been easier to deal with if STBX had died.


----------



## angelpixie

Soca (in response to a comment made earlier)-- I've felt the same thing about my Ex. I still don't know how he would be if he was forced to choose between DS and some posGF he's 'in love with' at the time. He's given enough evidence to make me worry. Same with a deep-seated worry that if something were to happen to DS, Ex would be gone. One reason I decided against more kids with him, which broke my heart. 

Trust your gut. Your heart still cares about her, especially if you know she has emotional/mental issues. It's very difficult for a spouse to get to a point where they can compartmentalize enough where they no longer feel compelled to view the 'ill' spouse with mercy and compassion because of their issues. We've gotten used to being caretakers on at least some level, and it's really hard to turn that off. We've seen their pain and we've believed it to be real. And I'm sure it is...but it's not our problem anymore. We got fired from the caretaker jobs. I don't wish Ex bad. I wish him health and success mainly to support his functioning as a father to DS. Other than that, I'm working towards indifference towards him, and healing myself. It is liberating. 

You're on your way, Soca. Keep turning your care and focus on yourself and the boys. You have seen what you need to see in order to make the right decisions.


----------



## Conrad

Orpheus said:


> Soca, again... shift your perspective. Divorce is opposition by definition but doesn't have to be war. Your wind up to this and your guilt a few posts up thread come from a position of feeling bad about what you're doing to stbxw. Change your shift from us/her to what you are doing for you and how you need to move forward from here for your family.
> 
> Yes, there will be some blood in the water but that's the nature of the beast. Live honestly within your rules and you'll be fine. Your stbxw isn't a vitcim of your actions; she's a participant in the divorce.


She's actually the perp


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> Now it's my turn to take some "real" action and not by my choice. By doing this, it forces me out of the sort if weird denial I've been - which is very uncomfortable.
> 
> I was just thinking millions of people do this every year so why am I so hung up on this? Why do I feel the need to come on TAM to discuss this and read/comment about other's situations? Do most people just "get over it" and move on? Or do they just struggle with themselves? As I've said before, this would have been easier to deal with if STBX had died.


If stb had died you could continue your love affair. So yes, much easier. And the self pity could roll on and on.

This next bit is a battle of semantics with you but it's important which is why i bring it up: this is your choice. it's your choice to take control of your life. to take control of your feelings and your actions. to protect your boys. she instigated this and her actions have been consistant. what you are doing now is the adult, father, man response to your situation. 

now go put on a little Pet Shop Boys and suck it up.


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> If stb had died you could continue your love affair. So yes, much easier. And the self pity could roll on and on.
> 
> This next bit is a battle of semantics with you but it's important which is why i bring it up: this is your choice. it's your choice to take control of your life. to take control of your feelings and your actions. to protect your boys. she instigated this and her actions have been consistant. what you are doing now is the adult, father, man response to your situation.
> 
> now go put on a little Pet Shop Boys and suck it up.


Ha! A 2X4 coupled with a Pet Shop Boys reference! 

Yes that did sound a little whiny "woe is me". But I am curious about why I do come on TAM. I've never posted a comment to any article I've read online, I don't have on-line "friends", and I rarely put anything on Facebook. Well off to the lawyer's office...


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> O - true. I'm getting a little wound up/anxious about this today and I have to keep the perspective.
> 
> Now it's my turn to take some "real" action and not by my choice. By doing this, it forces me out of the sort if weird denial I've been - which is very uncomfortable.
> 
> I was just thinking millions of people do this every year so why am I so hung up on this? Why do I feel the need to come on TAM to discuss this and read/comment about other's situations? Do most people just "get over it" and move on? Or do they just struggle with themselves? As I've said before, this would have been easier to deal with if STBX had died.


Most people just sleepwalk through their lives blaming other people for their unhappiness - yes.

As for her dying?

Very few get off that easily.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Ha! A 2X4 coupled with a Pet Shop Boys reference!
> 
> Yes that did sound a little whiny "woe is me". * But I am curious about why I do come on TAM.* I've never posted a comment to any article I've read online, I don't have on-line "friends", and I rarely put anything on Facebook. Well off to the lawyer's office...


Because we're an elite team of trained Special Forces, just waiting to assist you through your own commando divorce skirmish. 

And we share obscure references to old TV shows and 80s music.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> As I've said before, this would have been easier to deal with if STBX had died.


I feel the same way. With death they just leave you, which is painful, of course -- but with separation/divorce being left also comes with a heaping side order of rejection on top of the abandonment. :iagree:


----------



## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> I feel the same way. With death they just leave you, which is painful, of course -- but with separation/divorce being left also comes with a heaping side order of rejection on top of the abandonment. :iagree:


Plus its much easier to grieve someone you never see again, much less frequently (co-parenting).

But it can be done. The more difficult the challenge, the larger the opportunity for growth.


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> Plus its much easier to grieve someone you never see again, much less frequently (co-parenting).
> 
> But it can be done. *The more difficult the challenge, the larger the opportunity for growth.*



This should be the motto for the GTDS and LAD forums.

I might cross-stitch it for my wall, too.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Because we're an elite team of trained Special Forces, just waiting to assist you through your own commando divorce skirmish.
> 
> And we share obscure references to old TV shows and 80s music.


So back from the lawyer and caught up with an old friend (the caterer) who was floored by what's happened. She said she was just uploading some of our reception pics onto a new website a few days ago. She had been out to visit us 2 years ago while having some tests done at the Cleveland Clinic - said she would nver have seen this coming. And then (like everyone else) says "I really don't see STBX staying in Ohio..."

However, OT, she did tell me about a friend of hers going thru a difficult divorce and I let her know about TAM and she is giving the info to her friend.

So we may have another squadron member soon!


----------



## soca70

Quick update...

Motion filed and copy sent to opposing attorney. My attorney confirmed a teleconference with opposing counsel on Monday at 9:45 AM to orally review deal points. STBX started calling a few times from LA about an hour later. Forwarded to voice mail - no message.

STBX calls again at 7:30 PM EST to talk to the boys as we have agreed on that time. I had texted earlier today that boys will be an event tonight (so she doesn't think I'm making them unaccessible). Then sends me text - oh i forgot about that.

Then STBX calls again at 9:15 PM to talk to the boys (as she knows event is over at 9:00 PM). Of course they are tired and cranky and the housekeeper is over here so one talked to her for 2 minutes then hands the phone to me. Other one didn't want to talk so Oops! - we disconnected accidentally. 

I feel like now I'm hunkered down in some sort of "siege mentality" as this agreement negotitation is going to be handled by the lawyers from now on and I do not want to provide the opportunity to engage with me anymore on this.

Talking to my old friend today, I realized I miss seeing the people that actually know me - from before. Here it's just people who know "us".

After school today, I went with the boys with their best friend and his mom (single - IVF kid) for a quick, rowdy dinner then a drop off at the event. Ran to Lowe's, purchased the new living room carpet. I confirmed with the best friend's mom to attend a mega-playdate that one boy was invited to for his class tomorrow afternoon at a big outside park and I will pick him up and take all 3. Her son I can tell wants a "father figure" as he's always all over me and has asked his mom if S___ and R___ could be part of his family. They live around the corner so I'm trying to get them all involved together in activities. I researched the indoor climbing and what's required and she's OK with me taking him along with mine. I also signed the boys up for spring soccer and coordinated the times with him and some of their other friends.

If you had told me 10 years ago I would be a single parent, I would have laughed in your face!


----------



## angelpixie

But it sounds like you're doing an awesome job at it, Soca!! :smthumbup:


----------



## happyman64

I think you have been a single parent for a lot longer than you think...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Checking in, Soca. You alright?

I'm sorry, I've lost the bubble, is tonight the night you've got three boys rerunning amok?

Did WS have to work today at the corporate office or are they all down at Venice Beach having a cold one?


----------



## soca70

everything fine here - I had three boys amok this afternoon but then pared down to two. Dinner out and just finished baths. Now a movie in a few minutes.

B-day party and conservatory outing tomorrow.

Haven't heard from WS today yet bit usually calls in a half hour. I will just let the boys talk.

I'll check in after bedtime here with everyone


----------



## Bullwinkle

Cool.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I think you have been a single parent for a lot longer than you think...


HM - LOL. In a way, yes. Our work/travel schedules have pretty much had us "shifting" the kids with one of us at the helm solo for years. When the boys were younger that was more STBX and my sister, who was our full-time nanny. Last couple of years. it's shifted to me as my travel slowed down. In hindsight, it's given me good preparation for this as I know dads who could not last two days alone and I've been used to 2 weeks at a time 4X/yr for 5 years. Cooking is my only (?) weakness. I hate it and am bad at it with no interest. Even the boys know and comment on it. STBX has the big leg up on me here 

STBX called at 7:30 but boys were wanting to watch "Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs" instead of talking so I didn't pick up and texted to try tomorrow before noon as we'll be gone the whole rest of the day.

This respite is actually good - just not having the "little black cloud" here is an emotional relief. Plus at 2500 miles away, I could frankly care less what's going on out there.

Networking like a fiend at this playdate with all these other parents this afternoon.


----------



## happyman64

I am a lousy cook to Soca.

Unless the meal is on the grill.

Keep networking.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

Just keep doing what you're doing. And you really are blessed, family and friends, great home, stability for your boys. 

I have a wager going on how this all turns out, don't let me down.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> HM - LOL. In a way, yes. Our work/travel schedules have pretty much had us "shifting" the kids with one of us at the helm solo for years. When the boys were younger that was more STBX and my sister, who was our full-time nanny. Last couple of years. it's shifted to me as my travel slowed down. In hindsight, it's given me good preparation for this as I know dads who could not last two days alone and I've been used to 2 weeks at a time 4X/yr for 5 years. Cooking is my only (?) weakness. I hate it and am bad at it with no interest. Even the boys know and comment on it. STBX has the big leg up on me here
> 
> STBX called at 7:30 but boys were wanting to watch "Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs" instead of talking so I didn't pick up and texted to try tomorrow before noon as we'll be gone the whole rest of the day.
> 
> This respite is actually good - just not having the "little black cloud" here is an emotional relief. Plus at 2500 miles away, I could frankly care less what's going on out there.
> 
> Networking like a fiend at this playdate with all these other parents this afternoon.


Take note of your reaction.

With her gone, you are free.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Soca
> 
> Just keep doing what you're doing. And you really are blessed, family and friends, great home, stability for your boys.
> 
> I have a wager going on how this all turns out, don't let me down.


Thanks on part 1 and I agree.

#2 - no idea what you're wagering on


----------



## soca70

So boys in bed. Very busy day at a birthday party and was able to prevent any serious injuries with the pinata festivities. Plus a dead rat (read = Mouse) was found in the yard which brought the excitement to a whole new level . Had a nice time visiting with the parents and planning the spring activities, comparing notes on performance at school, etc.

Then off to the conservatory and botanical garden for the scout outing which was a lot of fun also. One of the dads of 4 year old twin boys in the group let us know that he was diagnosed 2 weeks ago with pretty progressive prostate cancer (7 on a scale of 1-10) and will be having surgey next week for removal and then wait to see what happens if chemo is needed, etc. He's 43. Which shows no matter how bad you think you have it, someone else is dealing with worse.

Then back home for a Scooby Doo mini-marathon and homework. Cereal for dinner (please don't judge me ). A bit of a Nat Geo shark show and then to bed.

STBX had called this morning and spoke with the boys. Dadda was "busy".

And another week is about to begin...


----------



## soca70

From the Botanical Graden and Conservatory outing today. Any guesses as to which one is my "handful"?


----------



## HappyKaty

They're adorable, Soca! 

PS...I love your "it could be worse" observation.


----------



## happyman64

Very cute.

I say your handful is on the left but I would watch out for the one kneeling on the rock on the right.

He looks ready to jump!


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Very cute.
> 
> I say your handful is on the left but I would watch out for the one kneeling on the rock on the right.
> 
> He looks ready to jump!


You are correct, sir!

I have varying degrees of "handful" here - extreme and moderately extreme!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sounds like great day and weekend, Soca. 

Fine-looking lads, you should be proud. 

Sorry for being cryptic before, my wager is that your WS will decide she wants to R. I guess the next wager would be whether or not you'd consider it.


----------



## Constellation

Wow, what a story Soca, spent the best part of an hour reading through your entire post and everyone's comments. You have come through this remarkably well and a big thumbs up for always having your amazing kids on top of your priority list, you deserve all the praise for manning up to your responsibilities.

My W and I separated early February 2011 (A Big Bomb for me) and I can recollect on all your emotions and can't help remembering a pain that absolutely consumes every part of your being, I myself was numb and can't begin to explain that feeling of hurt. I enjoy revisiting TAM from time to time as much of my guidance and healing happened right here. We were together 11 years, married 4 with just one baby boy who's now almost 5, I was separated 12 months and reconciled with my W in February 2012 just before we were divorced.

I can understand what Bullwinkle's wager is about and I too would have said "what wager" 5 or 6 months into my separation, do the right things, never give up hope!!!

You're doing really great, well done and keep us posted...


----------



## staystrong

@Constellation
Where are your previous posts? You should post your story in Reconciliation. 

@Soca
Dude, you would make an excellent summer camp director


----------



## Constellation

@staystrong
My administration rights were reset by the administrator and hence my posts as I noticed have been reset to zero as a result. As you can see I did register in Sept 2011.

Anyways just wanted to let Soca know it's a very inspiring story.


----------



## soca70

Constellation and SS - 

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement! It was a great weekend and I felt really good about it.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Sorry for being cryptic before, my wager is that your WS will decide she wants to R. I guess the next wager would be whether or not you'd consider it.


I will wager you that after this teleconference with my attorney and opposing counsel this morning about the custody agreement that my STBX hops on th red-eye from LAX to drive a stake through my heart while I'm sleeping!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Yeah..... maybe that was a dumb wager, like throwing money down a rathole....

hey, SoCa, let me ask you something - someone told me yesterday that even as much as I hate my wife right now for what she's done, that I am wrong to pursue 50 50 custody of a soon-to-be three year old, that D should have a primary residence, probably with her mother, not bounce between homes at such a young age. I think she'd be fine. You got any thoughts?


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Yeah..... maybe that was a dumb wager, like throwing money down a rathole....
> 
> hey, SoCa, let me ask you something - someone told me yesterday that even as much as I hate my wife right now for what she's done, that I am wrong to pursue 50 50 custody of a soon-to-be three year old, that D should have a primary residence, probably with her mother, not bounce between homes at such a young age. I think she'd be fine. You got any thoughts?


No it's not a dumb wager - it's the hope that we would all like to see our threads moved to the "Reconciliation" section...

On your question, first I would advise you to make an appointment with a family therapist to discuss the best options for your D so you can have a professional opinion, ask questions, and gain a better understanding of your options and effects.

That being said, I will let you know what ours said. For young kids like this, what tends to work best is what's called a 2/3/2 (or something like that) schedule where it's 50% and the child doesn't go for long stretches at a time without seeing the other parent - 2 days on, 3 off, 2 on, etc.

What our therapist said later is when child is in school (2nd, 3rd grade, ect) and have more need of a set schedule that the week on and week off schedule can work better. Apparently, most parents are able to work out the schedule that meets the needs best.

I'm pushing for more time at home during the school year so they have a "base" of operations but it's been like pulling teeth to get to that. 

As a word of warning, this is where I went ballistic in the therapist's office with STBX discussing time when I would and would not be allowed to see my kids, negotiating this like some car purchase, etc. No words can decsribe it. I'm sorry you have to deal with this and you may really want that professional guidance to help you with these decisions.


----------



## soca70

So my attorney let me know that she had the call today with opposing counsel. Their side was pleased we were looking at a settlement offer. My attorney said she discussed terms in "general terms" and will work on drafting the actual agreement for my review first. We will see how pleased "their side" is when they see the specifics 

I could just crawl back into bed at this point.


----------



## soca70

So STBX emailed me about how the boys are doing. I delay for an hour and reply fine. And then can you talk now? About what? I reply and then a call from LA. At this point, I just answer. So STBX hasn't spoken to her lawyer yet today and was asking about if I had agreed to the schedule, etc. I let her know that my attorney was drafting the entire agreement and she'd probably have by Thurs. and her attorney should have the bullet points. And then asks if I'm avoiding her calls, and why am I acting strange as we were getting along so well the last 2 weeks? And I say "Look I'm p****d about this and how do you expect me to act?" (probably the wrong answer)

And she asks "anything I won't agree to?" And I say possible at first, but you will really need to see what you will need to bend on so we don't take it to court. (Meaning yes)

So we end it by STBX saying "OK, I will review it but I don't want to play games on this." To which I reply "me neither. Just review it when you get it."

Why do I always feel on the defensive after these conversations? Do I just avoid the calls altogether (which I think looks pretty obvious) or just keep them very brief and impersonal and say let the attorneys work on it?

Bleh...


----------



## spun

soca70 said:


> So STBX emailed me about how the boys are doing. I delay for an hour and reply fine. And then can you talk now? About what? I reply and then a call from LA. At this point, I just answer. So STBX hasn't spoken to her lawyer yet today and was asking about if I had agreed to the schedule, etc. I let her know that my attorney was drafting the entire agreement and she'd probably have by Thurs. and her attorney should have the bullet points. And then asks if I'm avoiding her calls, and why am I acting strange as we were getting along so well the last 2 weeks? And I say "Look I'm p****d about this and how do you expect me to act?" (probably the wrong answer)
> 
> And she asks "anything I won't agree to?" And I say possible at first, but you will really need to see what you will need to bend on so we don't take it to court. (Meaning yes)
> U
> So we end it by STBX saying "OK, I will review it but I don't want to play games on this." To which I reply "me neither. Just review it when you get it."
> 
> Why do I always feel on the defensive after these conversations? Do I just avoid the calls altogether (which I think looks pretty obvious) or just keep them very brief and impersonal and say let the attorneys work on it?
> 
> Bleh...


Tell you are glad to field any of her questions or inquiries through email from here going forward.

Treat her like what she is at this point.

A business associate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

spun said:


> Tell you are glad to field any of her questions or inquiries through email from here going forward.
> 
> Treat like what she is at this point.
> 
> A business associate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Spun - do you think that comes off as evasive and weird? Or does it frankly even matter?


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

Regarding emails, phone calls, all that. I'm of the opinion, what the hell difference does it make at this point? And who gives a Shyt if you do get pissed off. You have every right to be. 

Thanks for earlier info on the 2 3 2 split with the kids, very helpful.


----------



## spun

soca70 said:


> Spun - do you think that comes off as evasive and weird? Or does it frankly even matter?


She fired you.

Yet, you are still seeking her approval?

You set the rules of your engagement.

You no longer need to be compelled to do anything you are not ok with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> So STBX emailed me about how the boys are doing. I delay for an hour and reply fine. And then can you talk now? About what? I reply and then a call from LA. At this point, I just answer. So STBX hasn't spoken to her lawyer yet today and was asking about if I had agreed to the schedule, etc. I let her know that my attorney was drafting the entire agreement and she'd probably have by Thurs. and her attorney should have the bullet points. And then asks if I'm avoiding her calls, and why am I acting strange as we were getting along so well the last 2 weeks? And I say "Look I'm p****d about this and how do you expect me to act?" (probably the wrong answer)
> 
> And she asks "anything I won't agree to?" And I say possible at first, but you will really need to see what you will need to bend on so we don't take it to court. (Meaning yes)
> 
> So we end it by STBX saying "OK, I will review it but I don't want to play games on this." To which I reply "me neither. Just review it when you get it."
> 
> Why do I always feel on the defensive after these conversations? Do I just avoid the calls altogether (which I think looks pretty obvious) or just keep them very brief and impersonal and say let the attorneys work on it?
> 
> Bleh...


A conversation filled with #3's.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> And then asks if I'm avoiding her calls, and why am I acting strange as we were getting along so well the last 2 weeks? And I say "Look I'm p****d about this and how do you expect me to act?" (probably the wrong answer)
> 
> And she asks "anything I won't agree to?" And I say possible at first, but you will really need to see what you will need to bend on so we don't take it to court. (Meaning yes)
> 
> So we end it by STBX saying "OK, I will review it but I don't want to play games on this." To which I reply "me neither. Just review it when you get it."
> 
> Why do I always feel on the defensive after these conversations? Do I just avoid the calls altogether (which I think looks pretty obvious) or just keep them very brief and impersonal and say let the attorneys work on it?
> 
> Bleh...



This breaks my heart. I’m going through all these type of calls and texts but for nothing as important as my child or children...I know how painful this type of communication is with the person you loved and trusted most and for me personally I just cringe and want to hide in fright. Yet if they involved my child like a piece of property, I probably would lose it... How awful that you guys are going through this I can’t even imagine...


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for all the comments. I just got back from the gym and the grocery store and was thinking about this. Spun/BW - you're right who cares at this point? I will send an email this evening saying all further discussion of agreement via email or attorneys. I can't discuss any of it without feeling slightly crazy and it will be non-productive anyway. DYC - yes I find it offensive to be doing this.

And then I got reminding myself at the gym and store, who is the one who put this in motion? who is the one who's signed up on dating sites pinging 26 year olds while I'm out buying Fruit Roll-Ups? I don't know why these things slip my mind but they are good motivators.

As an FYI, this custody thing will be going on this week and it's making me anxious so bear with me please...

And speak of the devil, my attorney just emailed me the agreement for review. I will look at this later tonight after I pick up the kids, go to McDonals's, and then gymnastics.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> I will look at this later tonight after I pick up the kids, go to McDonals's, and then gymnastics.


I'm gonna get together some recipes for you, sweet Soca.


----------



## spun

soca70 said:


> I can't discuss any of it without feeling slightly crazy


You don't think she knows this?

That's part of her agenda.


----------



## staystrong

Soca, this is going to be a tough week for you since you are effectively haggling for the right to see your own flesh and blood. I think you moreso than any one else on this board (whose threads I follow) demonstrate how close you are to your kids. I'm so pissed at your wife right now. Really pulling for you, though. 

You feel you are on the defensive because you are having to restrain yourself from going off on her. 

"anything I won't agree to?" and "OK, I will review it but I don't want to play games on this." are both b1tchy statements. She's basically saying "Oh Soca, you better not annoy me. You how annoyed I can get when you don't do as your told." Don't get sucked into it.


----------



## spun

staystrong said:


> Soca, this is going to be a tough week for you since you are effectively haggling for the right to see your own flesh and blood. I think you moreso than any one else on this board (whose threads I follow) demonstrate how close you are to your kids. I'm so pissed at your wife right now. Really pulling for you, though.
> 
> You feel you are on the defensive because you are having to restrain yourself from going off on her.
> 
> "anything I won't agree to?" and "OK, I will review it but I don't want to play games on this." are both b1tchy statements. She's basically saying "Oh Soca, you better not annoy me. You how annoyed I can get when you don't do as your told." Don't get sucked into it.


In other words, she is a starting gate persecutor.

Of course, that's all a ploy to get him to react so she can then return to her cushy victim chair.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca, this is where the rubber meets the road. Don't falter now. 

Your comment about WS going on dating sites while you're buying Fruit Rollups, that really summed it up. That pissed me off so much I want to fly out to LA and give your wife some wall to wall counseling. 

Keep making us proud, amigo.


----------



## Conrad

spun said:


> In other words, she is a starting gate persecutor.
> 
> Of course, that's all a ploy to get him to react so she can then return to her cushy victim chair.


You would never know from her attitude how vulnerable she is in all this.

I would be so tempted to exercise the nuclear option.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Yes, agreed.


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for the support. It really means a lot.

Spun - I took your advice and sent an email saying that I think it's best if this agreement is negotiated via email and thru the lawyers as it could become emotional and non-productive. STBX agreed.

STBX called at 7:45, 8:30, and 9:00 while I was getting the boys bathed, ready for bed, and then asleep. I had already said tonight is tough because of gymnastics and it pushes the schedule. In fairness, I asked them if they wanted me to call back and talk but they said just wait until tomorrow as Gator Boys was on. Texted STBX and let her know to try tomorrow.

And then my one son (the worrier) starts asking me about STBX's family while I'm laying with him in bed. "IS (FIL) my real grandfathe?" and are "X, Y, and Z my real cousins?" so I start explaining how FIL is STBX's step-father and the cousins can be called cousins but they are not really because C____ is not really STBX's sister but FIL's daughter and who is STBX's real father and do you know him? (And if you recall he's schizophrenic and crazy as a loon). And I said "areyou confused"and he says yes and I say "it's confusing for me too". And then he says well I know (my parents) are my real grandparents and A____ is my real cousin and I say yes. And then he says "I'm going to keep all that secret so no one will know at school and they don't laugh at me" so I try to explain blended families and let him know we have an appointment with the family therapist tomorrow night and can talk about it more which he stated he didn't want to do. I will need to talk with her also as to how to age-appropriately explain this.

And the REALITY is none of STBX's f'd up family is technically related to my kids and I am trying VERY hard not to say that as there is no way they'll comprehend that mindf**K. Of course, the plan had been to gloss that over until they were old enough but now with this crap, who knows what to say? Will discuss with therapist.

An idiot could have seen this can of worms coming but delusional Pollyanna with "they'll be fine" and "we'll just get them in counselling" will try to skate by this too.

SS - it's kind of ironic that STBX is the one that really pushed for kids as I was fairly ambivalent. But we didn't just "have" our kids. It was a conscious, deliberate, extensive process and ultimately our responsibility. If STBX wants to cop out and go part-time "to be true to herself" in some fog of denial, I had to stand up to protect them. I will never forgive this.


----------



## happyman64

Good idea with the emails. Especially while she is away.

And you are right about two things.

The dating site shows you the real her.

And you are going to make yourself crazy with all this happening at once.

Let the therapist work with the boys. Stick to the emails with your STBX. She fired you remember?

And try your best to be cool. For your own good.


----------



## happyman64

PS Soca

Is it my imagination or is your wife detaching much better than you???

Use these two weeks to do exactly what she is doing. Detaching from you.

Make it happen on your terms.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Good idea with the emails. Especially while she is away.
> 
> And you are right about two things.
> 
> The dating site shows you the real her.
> 
> And you are going to make yourself crazy with all this happening at once.
> 
> Let the therapist work with the boys. Stick to the emails with your STBX. She fired you remember?
> 
> And try your best to be cool. For your own good.


Thanks, HM. Keeping it cooler than what I just re-read - sounded a little frantic. Calling my parents now in Aruba to review this with them for thier input.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> PS Soca
> 
> Is it my imagination or is your wife detaching much better than you???
> 
> Use these two weeks to do exactly what she is doing. Detaching from you.
> 
> Make it happen on your terms.


Oh my STBX has mastered detaching. It happened a year and a half ago while I wasn't looking.


----------



## Bullwinkle

It all sounds peaceful tonight in the Soca residence. Too bad she can't extend the trip for like, a year, 

I most related to the last line of your post "I will never forgive this". This is the kind of thing I want see more of on TAM!

You're still angry and hurt as hell!


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> It all sounds peaceful tonight in the Soca residence. Too bad she can't extend the trip for like, a year,
> 
> I most related to the last line of your post "I will never forgive this". This is the kind of thing I want see more of on TAM!
> 
> You're still angry and hurt as hell!


Peaceful? I just got off the phone with my parents - they can get me riled up like no others!  My mom - "I'm tired of STBX, I'm tired of her jerking you around, tired of her taking no responsibility and turning it all around on you, and anyone who is on a dating website during a custody issue is a piss-poor parent!" They are one step away from FUNDING the nuclear option.

I'm no longer shaking (literally shaking) with anger like I was a couple of months ago but yes still angry and hurt.

On the constructive note, I have scheduled a review call with lawyer for Thurs morning so a few days of respite.


----------



## GutPunch

Just chiming in as a lurker.

Nuclear has definitely got my vote.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Peaceful? I just got off the phone with my parents - they can get me riled up like no others!  My mom - "I'm tired of STBX, I'm tired of her jerking you around, tired of her taking no responsibility and turning it all around on you, and anyone who is on a dating website during a custody issue is a piss-poor parent!" They are one step away from FUNDING the nuclear option.
> 
> I'm no longer shaking (literally shaking) with anger like I was a couple of months ago but yes still angry and hurt.
> 
> On the constructive note, I have scheduled a review call with lawyer for Thurs morning so a few days of respite.


Soca,

If they're willing to fund it, have a heart to heart with them.

If they'll even split the cost with you, just do it.

You can always let her back in when/if she shows remorse.

Good luck with that.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Guys - thanks for the support. It really means a lot.
> 
> Spun - I took your advice and sent an email saying that I think it's best if this agreement is negotiated via email and thru the lawyers as it could become emotional and non-productive. STBX agreed.
> 
> STBX called at 7:45, 8:30, and 9:00 while I was getting the boys bathed, ready for bed, and then asleep. I had already said tonight is tough because of gymnastics and it pushes the schedule. In fairness, I asked them if they wanted me to call back and talk but they said just wait until tomorrow as Gator Boys was on. Texted STBX and let her know to try tomorrow.
> 
> And then my one son (the worrier) starts asking me about STBX's family while I'm laying with him in bed. "IS (FIL) my real grandfathe?" and are "X, Y, and Z my real cousins?" so I start explaining how FIL is STBX's step-father and the cousins can be called cousins but they are not really because C____ is not really STBX's sister but FIL's daughter and who is STBX's real father and do you know him? (And if you recall he's schizophrenic and crazy as a loon). And I said "areyou confused"and he says yes and I say "it's confusing for me too". And then he says well I know (my parents) are my real grandparents and A____ is my real cousin and I say yes. And then he says "I'm going to keep all that secret so no one will know at school and they don't laugh at me" so I try to explain blended families and let him know we have an appointment with the family therapist tomorrow night and can talk about it more which he stated he didn't want to do. I will need to talk with her also as to how to age-appropriately explain this.
> 
> And the REALITY is none of STBX's f'd up family is technically related to my kids and I am trying VERY hard not to say that as there is no way they'll comprehend that mindf**K. Of course, the plan had been to gloss that over until they were old enough but now with this crap, who knows what to say? Will discuss with therapist.
> 
> An idiot could have seen this can of worms coming but delusional Pollyanna with "they'll be fine" and "we'll just get them in counselling" will try to skate by this too.
> 
> SS - it's kind of ironic that STBX is the one that really pushed for kids as I was fairly ambivalent. But we didn't just "have" our kids. It was a conscious, deliberate, extensive process and ultimately our responsibility. If STBX wants to cop out and go part-time "to be true to herself" in some fog of denial, I had to stand up to protect them. I will never forgive this.


She's letting you know who she is.

Believe her.

And, protect your kids.


----------



## happyman64

I do agree that the boys need to be protected.

I did say that she is showing Soca who she really is.

And I always believe there is a time and place for the nuclear option.

I am not sure in Soca's if it is called for or if now is the right time.

Sleep on it Soca. Get your parents call out of your head and the boys worries out of your head and just think about it tomorrow.

I know all the drama sucks.


----------



## Conrad

Happy,

Question for you brother.

Is there any point at which this woman needs to show him some respect?

She - clearly - does not think so.

Her time is her time.

His time is her time.

His kids are her kids.

Are they?

Isn't it time for a reality check?

She's opened Pandora's Box - and is acting like Venus DeMilo.

I call bull****.

Dating sites?

Look, I think the best option for him is divorce.

He needs to find a woman that wants him for him.

BUT......

He has the clear advantage here - and has been being very kind and generous to someone who has said she "cringes" when he touches her.

Again, I call bull****.

Who does she think she is?

Time for a reality check.

Let's get to brass tacks.

She wanted a family.

Here's a guy who PAID for IVF because she couldn't conceive - rather than divorce her and find a fertile partner.

This is how she treats him?

The hell with her.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

Though she may have done it as a provocation to shock and anger you (mine would have done it if only to cause me anguish), the dating site thing really does show you her mindset. That is the kind of thing that ales me nuts. The sheer disrespect of it. 

Also, I realize your parents stress you out when they get worked up but you are so lucky to have them, to have the unconditional support in your corner. 

Too bad she can't extend her trip.


----------



## happyman64

> She wanted a family.
> 
> Here's a guy who PAID for IVF because she couldn't conceive - rather than divorce her and find a fertile partner.
> 
> This is how she treats him?


This resonates with me strongly Conrad.

And I do agree with you, after all that Soca has done to make his wife happy her repayment of his love and devotion was to blindside him with a divorce.

And her lack of desire for any marriage counseling tells us who she really is and shows Soca she truly cares only for herself.

OK.

I understand now.


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for all the words and pretty much summing up everything. Rough night - didn't sleep well. Had an IC appointmnet this morning.

So to get everyone on the same page here, we filed a motion on Friday that threatens the nuclear option if this is not resolved by the court date of 4/10. STBX is in a potentially vulnerable position due to current state laws and knows it. Opposing counsel has their argument against as expected.

What the offer details is the schedule that STBX has agreed to (me - 60/40), residential school placement (agreed to - me), relo provisions (somewhat agreed to),(sobriety - agreed), FIL visitation restrictions (negotiable), and certain decision-making safeguards (this is the sticker). My attorneys (and IC) think this is all reasonable due to circumstances. Again, the hope is that STBX continues to be a good parent but recourse if not. Of course, STBX views this differently.

The goal is to have STBX's lawyer show/persuade/convince her that there is a real potential of losing custody entirely and to settle this without going to court. My attorneys are advising against going for full custody (nuclear option) as in court it's unpredicatable and although our court "draw" is pretty favorable but not guaranteed. Additionally, the time and expense. In that case then it would be 50/50 without any provisions for me. So the best option is to "force" a settlement to my advantage now.

This is all a gray area and no one can really predict anything definitively. However, if STBX will not agree to this, it looks like we will move forward and then it becomes who has more money. And my parents are highly motivated.

Conrad/HM - my IC has said the same things. And I would probably view this differently and act differently if this had "gone down" differently. But it didn't and here we are.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa -

This is all great detail for me, kind of like a divorce tutorial. Terrible for you, of course. 

I hope the money holds out.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa -
> 
> This is all great detail for me, kind of like a divorce tutorial. Terrible for you, of course.
> 
> I hope the money holds out.


I'm not worried about the money - it's more time at this point.

As I've indicated to you, education is key with this crap.


----------



## soca70

So the good news at the dentist today is my gum therapy has been successful and the gingivitis brought on by the stress of this situation 3 months ago has been eradicated. Yes, disgusting but I'll count this as a positive. On the negative side, hygenist was going on and on about meeting my whole family last week and how she cleaned STBX's teeth just Tuesday. I felt like saying how were those teeth doing I paid for braces for 9 years ago?

In other mitigating disaster news, I had both boys meet with the family therapist this evening for an emotional check on everything. I really like this therapist as she was the one who we were working with for behavioral issues when the bomb dropped and she was a lifeline to IC and the non-used MC. Also, she went to high school with one of my divorce attorneys. We have a very good rapport and seems to understand my side of things (to the chagrin of STBX).

I filled her in on the latest and she met with the boys. Good news is that they are doing very well, extremely well-behaved and cooperative with her and each other, and were handling the news positively. Of course she cautioned since STBX is still at home, we will need to wait and see how they react later. Again, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

As we were recapping, she let me know that the boys had spoken with STBX on Facetime at school today and some kind of talk about a trip to California. Couldn't quite get the details but will need to find out more (now I'm grilling the kids). Therapist saw the irritated look on my face and I tried to keep neutral as much as possible. Jesus, now what harebrained thoughts is she putting into their minds? Apparently everything OK for now though and will schedule again when needed.

Dinner out at Tim Horton's (Katy send recipes ASAP ). Boys did great and then bedtime. STBX called at 8 but I was upstairs plus she's already facetimed and we just got home so I ignored it.

Long day here...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, SoCa, I was beginning to worry, been waiting for the recap. There you are!

Obviously our situations are different but so much of it sounds the same....

I was at the dentist recently and she started telling me how STBX had been in recently and was getting some procedure to straighten her front teeth a little and then a whitening and how she was doing a "complete makeover". And I got that pang in my stomach and thought, yeah, but it's not for me. 

I'm glad your trip to the family counselor turned out okay.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Damn, SoCa, I was beginning to worry, been waiting for the recap. There you are!
> 
> Obviously our situations are different but so much of it sounds the same....
> 
> I was at the dentist recently and she started telling me how STBX had been in recently and was getting some procedure to straighten her front teeth a little and then a whitening and how she was doing a "complete makeover". And I got that pang in my stomach and thought, yeah, but it's not for me.
> 
> I'm glad your trip to the family counselor turned out okay.


Yeah STBX here last week had the whitening trays out and asking how the teeth looked and saying well I've had these for two years...doesn't take a rocket scientist...again fodder for my parents


----------



## soca70

Now another west coast call going to voice mail - no message


----------



## soca70

soca70 said:


> Yeah STBX here last week had the whitening trays out and asking how the teeth looked and saying well I've had these for two years...doesn't take a rocket scientist...again fodder for my parents


And before the 2X4s come out, I replied "Hmmm...there seems to be some streaking..."


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> And before the 2X4s come out, I replied "Hmmm...there seems to be some streaking..."



:smthumbup: :smthumbup: Atta boy, soca!!


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> :smthumbup: :smthumbup: Atta boy, soca!!


Oh I can be an a$$ if warranted...


----------



## angelpixie

Oh, I'd say it's more like 'when,' not 'if.'


----------



## Stella Moon

soca70 said:


> Oh I can be an a$$ if warranted...


...not me...:sleeping:


----------



## soca70

OK - so I got to thinking late last night about alternatives for STBX and sent this email this morning. (No I didn't have this pre-approved by the TAM board).


STBX-

I have been working with (lawyer) on the agreement this week and I wanted to present another option for your consideration. I know your heart is not in Ohio but rather in Los Angeles with your family, friends, and career. Ohio has a long-distance custody agreement that could provide a solution. I know this may sound “out-of-the-box” but you did tell me that moving to Ohio was the biggest mistake of your life. This situation could provide an opportunity for you to truly find happiness. Please let me know your thoughts.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Soca70 - 

I am sorry you are losing sleep over the situation, I've had many bouts of insomnia myself and it is so energy-sapping and horrendous. What would the Ohio long distance custody agreement entail? I'm assuming that would be her main question, if she is responsive at all to your emails. You were certainly tactful in your wording. Any response yet to this pitch?

When composing and considering sending or replying to emails, my "advisor" (sponsor) always recommends sitting on it for 24 hours. Hitting the pause button, especially on matters where emotions are running high.

How are you doing otherwise? Hanging in there I hope. I'm always touched by your posts that mention your kids and how great you are with them -- it is clear you are a terrific Dad, my hats off to you! 

Cheers,- A12


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

>>but you did tell me that moving to Ohio was the biggest mistake of your life<<

Doesn't this angle a bit for the victim chair?

(Anytime, you use the word "you", it's an invitation to defense)


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> >>but you did tell me that moving to Ohio was the biggest mistake of your life<<
> 
> Doesn't this angle a bit for the victim chair?
> 
> (Anytime, you use the word "you", it's an invitation to defense)


Unless it is in a question, right.

I'm not ok with ___. Would you consider ____?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Unless it is in a question, right.
> 
> I'm not ok with ___. Would you consider ____?


Correct.

Bringing up an exact quote that someone said (and this was in the heat of an argument) to offer something new will likely be interpreted as salesmanship or - at best - a poke to a tender place.


----------



## zillard

Right. We have to be careful not to tell others how they feel. 

People say things they don't really mean and if said in an emotional state often don't even remember saying them.


----------



## soca70

C/Z/A-

Thanks for getting back to me on this. Yes I see where I should have just left out the "but you said...". We're both aware of the sentiments and spelling it out does somewhat sound like a "jab".

My purpose of this email is multi-fold:

1. Providing an "out" for STBX while saving face. The reality is that her life in Ohio revolves primarily around me and my family. Besides the boys, there is no reason for her to be here - her family, friends, and job are all in CA. She cannot get a position with a firm here as she is still not admitted to the Ohio bar. She had stated to me several weeks ago "Now I'm stuck here for the duration." This would allow her to continue being a parent but allowing her to return home.

2. To make a statement that I do not need her here nor necessarily even want her here and I'm willing to let go.


3. If accepted, the agreement firmly puts me in control of the boys.

Looking at the long-distance schedule, it seems to alternate major holidays, split winter and spring breaks, half the summer break, and allows for in-area visits and a weekend a month (which would be cost-prohibitive I'd think).

I got to thinking about this as I have felt so much more peaceful without STBX being anywhere near here right now.

I haven't heard anything back on this which means:

1. Hmmm...that's an idea. Let me talk to my lawyer about what this would entail.

or:

2. You are out of your f****ing mind, Soca!


----------



## Conrad

Knowing her, it's #1


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Knowing her, it's #1


I agree which is why I was up late last night thinking about this. We'll see what she's really made of.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> C/Z/A-
> 
> Thanks for getting back to me on this. Yes I see where I should have just left out the "but you said...". We're both aware of the sentiments and spelling it out does somewhat sound like a "jab".
> 
> My purpose of this email is multi-fold:
> 
> 1. Providing an "out" for STBX while saving face. The reality is that her life in Ohio revolves primarily around me and my family. Besides the boys, there is no reason for her to be here - her family, friends, and job are all in CA. She cannot get a position with a firm here as she is still not admitted to the Ohio bar. She had stated to me several weeks ago "Now I'm stuck here for the duration." This would allow her to continue being a parent but allowing her to return home.
> 
> 2. To make a statement that I do not need her here nor necessarily even want her here and I'm willing to let go.
> 
> 
> 3. If accepted, the agreement firmly puts me in control of the boys.
> 
> Looking at the long-distance schedule, it seems to alternate major holidays, split winter and spring breaks, half the summer break, and allows for in-area visits and a weekend a month (which would be cost-prohibitive I'd think).
> 
> I got to thinking about this as I have felt so much more peaceful without STBX being anywhere near here right now.
> 
> I haven't heard anything back on this which means:
> 
> 1. Hmmm...that's an idea. Let me talk to my lawyer about what this would entail.
> 
> or:
> 
> 2. You are out of your f****ing mind, Soca!


I like it Soca.

Her response will be telling.

A. Just how bad she wants to go home.
B. How much she values her role as an active parent.

Let me ask you a question Soca.

If your wife never dropped the Divorce bomb, said she was unhappy and wanted to move the whole family back to Ca. (that includes you) would you have considered it? Done it?


HM64


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> If your wife never dropped the Divorce bomb, said she was unhappy and wanted to move the whole family back to Ca. (that includes you) would you have considered it? Done it?
> 
> 
> HM64




HM. Interesting as the opportunity presented itself 2 years ago where my company created a position that was CA-based. In truth, I prefer living in CA than OH for a variety of reasons (weather, lifestyle, etc) and we re-examined the options of relocating back. The obstacles are the expense of housing and schools, the resulting commute time to move farther out, and the way we wanted to bring up the boys. Again, the reasons why we moved to Ohio trumped the reasons to go back.


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> My purpose of this email is multi-fold:


it's only multi-fold if you can double-up a doormat. gotta stop solving and helping her, Soca. She's not your problem any more. Stop spoon feeding the gorilla. if you don't know what to say then say nothing. you don't have to fill the void with nice guy stuff. do for you and the boys. that's the finish line.


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> it's only multi-fold if you can double-up a doormat. gotta stop solving and helping her, Soca. She's not your problem any more. Stop spoon feeding the gorilla. if you don't know what to say then say nothing. you don't have to fill the void with nice guy stuff. do for you and the boys. that's the finish line.


Au contraire, O.

Remember I am in sales? So I started taking a look at this from a different angle and used the consultative approach.

What is the goal? To provide stability and emotional stability for the boys with me steering this ship for them.

So, I have identified a need for STBX. Happiness, back with family, career issues solved, cradled in the bosom of understanding friends.

And have crafted a solution which will meet those needs. What I will refer to as the "Exit - Stage Left" proposal which meets those needs and allows the retention of the title of parent for face-saving purposes. Note how I only appealed to her wants, desires, happiness? It's the only thing that has resonated so far with her (as you can see though 40 pages of this thread not one mention of anyone else's in this family).

Which becomes a win-win for all involved (particularly me and the boys). 

Whether STBX will seriously consider this or not remains to be seen but either way it gets a point across. 1) I'm willing to give you what you want or 2) I think you're such a POS at this point that abandoning your kids can be seen as a real possibility.

A couple of days ago, I was asking why I come on TAM. And I believe I found an answer today. It's really to try to make some sense out of how fast and how far life can change so dramatically. 

Just knowing that STBX is probably contemplating this is overwhelmingly astounding to me. NEVER in my wildest dreams would I have thought this previously - from PTO regular, Trustee at church, cupcake baker to delusional internet denizen hitting up 26 year olds and walking out on kindergartners. And practically overnight!

I'm starting to really believe when they say the real person emerges at this time and I must have been seeing a facade. Truly, I think STBX discovered that the reality of having a family can be very different than the idea. Our boys can be very difficult, financial stresses, the daily grind. STBX said to me a couple of months ago, "This didn't work out like I had planned".

What my IC told me yesterday is we revert back to the way in which we were parented. And in my case, this situation brought out a strong conviction for me as to what family is and does. And for STBX, unfortunately, her family background didn't provide that same kind of conviction. Which IC said will come home to roost for her down the road.

If STBX opts for the "Exit" proposal, although for me that will work out the best, I will still be very disappointed.


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> So, I have identified a need for STBX. ...And have crafted a solution which will meet those needs. ...Note how I only appealed to her wants, desires, happiness?


I think you out slicked yourself, Slick. Where in your succinctly edited response above does it refute that you're still gaming this as a way to somehow move her in order to get what you want? to solve for her or provide her with something in order for you to get what you want.

I get your win/win. Power negotiating. Kiyosakian hoop jumping. But that's a shield for you to take care of and make sure everyone gets out ok.

That's not your deal anymore.


----------



## angelpixie

I get what you're saying, O, but I also see where Soca's going with this -- in that the main thrust in this is not to really help _her_, as much as it is to help her _out the door_ and get him what he really wants. If he doesn't nudge her in the direction (of doing what she really wants anyway), he doesn't get his best possible outcome, either. She's not going to do this on her own, most likely. Wouldn't she have done so already?


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> I get what you're saying, O, but I also see where Soca's going with this -- in that the main thrust in this is not to really help _her_, as much as it is to help her _out the door_ and get him what he really wants. If he doesn't nudge her in the direction (of doing what she really wants anyway), he doesn't get his best possible outcome, either. She's not going to do this on her own, most likely. Wouldn't she have done so already?


Yes, AP, gets it. (Have no idea what Kionysian means :. This is planting a seed. If you recall, STBX's only concern is the perception of what she is doing. Doesn't want to appear like she's leaving the boys, etc. I could care less how she really feels about this and any happiness she's planning on achieving. Frankly, I don't think she knows what she's looking for or if anything is going to make her happy. O, I agree, that is not my problem.

My problem is as AP says, "getting her out the door" to the advatange of the boys and me. Without court, etc. If I can demonstrate a way that looks like I'm in agreement, STBX can maybe seriously start considering this as an option.

Maybe I am outslicking myself but I don't have anything to lose at this point.


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> Yes, AP, gets it.


Well, AP was going to be my case study for how i think that behavior "doesn't work". But I was going to spare the innocent. That reasoning, cajoling and coddling your less-significant other is a noose you're dressing for yourself and not the other. It's generally false progressive wishful thinking obscuring a masochistic undertow to still be connected some way to the departing spouse. Don't spoon feed the gorilla.

Kiyosaki-an, Mr. Salesman.


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> Well, AP was going to be my case study for how i think that behavior "doesn't work". But I was going to spare the innocent. That reasoning, cajoling and coddling your less-significant other is a noose you're dressing for yourself and not the other. It's generally false progressive wishful thinking obscuring a masochistic undertow to still be connected some way to the departing spouse. Don't spoon feed the gorilla.
> 
> Kiyosaki-an, Mr. Salesman.


I'm interested in your opinion here but not clear on WTH you are saying. 

In short, I would like nothing better than STBX to move cross-country and leave me and the boys the hell alone. As AP says there is no way she is going to suggest that herself - she couldn't handle the guilt and the shame. But in a dark, secret place I think that's what she really wants to do. So I laid it out as an option. Of course, I'm very aware that this could always be seen for what it is - pretty much pushing her out the door and out of our lives. But what will interest me is whether any sort of sense of family values and responsibilities will triumph over self-serving self-fulfillment fantasies. And if this causes a sleepless night wrestling with the conscience, I would consider that even a minor victory.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> But what will interest me is whether any sort of sense of family values and responsibilities will triumph over self-serving self-fulfillment fantasies.


I would bet no. 

I did something similar with my X, except my plan was leaving state with the kiddo, back to my family. She agreed to it and signed the papers, giving me the right to do so. 

You know her better than we do, Soca.


----------



## angelpixie

Orpheus said:


> Well, AP was going to be my case study for how i think that behavior "doesn't work". But I was going to spare the innocent. That reasoning, cajoling and coddling your less-significant other is a noose you're dressing for yourself and not the other. It's generally false progressive wishful thinking obscuring a masochistic undertow to still be connected some way to the departing spouse. Don't spoon feed the gorilla.
> 
> Kiyosaki-an, Mr. Salesman.


Thanks so much for 'sparing' me, sweetie.  I don't think I had the opportunity to do anything quite like this, as the option of Ex going elsewhere and leaving DS with me has never presented itself. So, I'm not sure that my sitch is a suitable comparison. But if it ever is, I could see myself 'allowing' him the option to make the choice for himself (with my help), just like Soca is.

ETA: I am also in a much different place with him than I used to be.



soca70 said:


> I'm interested in your opinion here but not clear on WTH you are saying.














soca70 said:


> In short, I would like nothing better than STBX to move cross-country and leave me and the boys the hell alone. As AP says there is no way she is going to suggest that herself - she couldn't handle the guilt and the shame. But in a dark, secret place I think that's what she really wants to do. So I laid it out as an option. Of course, I'm very aware that this could always be seen for what it is - pretty much pushing her out the door and out of our lives. But what will interest me is whether any sort of sense of family values and responsibilities will triumph over self-serving self-fulfillment fantasies. And if this causes a sleepless night wrestling with the conscience, I would consider that even a minor victory.


You are setting her up, but in the end, the decision is still hers.


----------



## angelpixie

To follow up, though, on what (I think) O is saying -- how at peace are you with her decision, no matter what it is? I know you will be angry at her moving away from the boys, but if she does decide to do that, how are you with that in terms of *you*? If she takes you up on your seeming offer of absolution if she decides to scram, are you emotionally OK with that severing?


----------



## Orpheus

soca70 said:


> In short, I would like nothing better than STBX to


You keep asking your stbx to solve your problems. So you serve her up snake oil to make her do something that is palatable. If you could make her do something you would have made her fix the marriage. You can't make somebody do something or trick them into it. Not for long term solutions.

Find your own equilibrium. You have to cut her out of your equation rather than solving with her as an integral part of how you handle your future. A problem of entanglement that AP also propagated. No, your two problems and positions aren't the same. But you both decided to be nice long after it wasn't part of the playbook as thinly veiled hope. IMHO.


----------



## angelpixie

Hope for what? Are you thinking that Soca is really hoping that this is more than her making a decision of whether or not to stay for the boys? 

It's not quite as cut and dried as you portray it when there are kids involved, O. *I'd* be perfectly thrilled if Ex went to Timbuktu with posGF, _but_ that's for my convenience. That isn't fair to DS. 

We have to work with the ex spouses whether we want to or have a deep-seated hope or hate their guts. And our own possible dysfunctions, co-dependencies, etc., notwithstanding, there is definitely pressure on the BS to take the high ground, not obstruct relations with the kids, 'play nice,' etc., throughout the entire process. I saw it in the parenting orientation class we were all required to take. It doesn't matter WTF the other spouse does, we are supposed to be conciliatory, forgiving, accommodating, etc. 

So sometimes, you stand there smiling and seemingly helpful, with your fingers crossed behind your back. At least I do now.


----------



## Orpheus

AP, you're talking more about your situation and some interpretation of my words that isn't in the text. that's why i went out of my way for the second time in the previous statement to say that this wasn't really about you.

It's about a mode of operating and giving somebody that opted out additional control. And it really is as easy as not spending time placating them. Let them find their level and come to you to mediate. Every time you fix things for the other person you perpetuate your misery and the madness.


----------



## happyman64

> STBX said to me a couple of months ago, "This didn't work out like I had planned".


Soca,

Did you ever ask her or have the conversation about what her "plan" was?

If my wife ever said something like hat to me I would have gotten answer.

HM64


----------



## angelpixie

Orpheus said:


> AP, you're talking more about your situation and some interpretation of my words that isn't in the text. that's why i went out of my way for the second time in the previous statement to say that this wasn't really about you.
> 
> It's about a mode of operating and giving somebody that opted out additional control. And it really is as easy as not spending time placating them. Let them find their level and come to you to mediate. Every time you fix things for the other person you perpetuate your misery and the madness.


You brought me up, as your proposed 'case study.' That's where I got the impression that my situation was somehow relevant to the discussion.


----------



## Orpheus

AP, it is... see the second paragraph of my last post. relevance doesn't have to be the controlling characteristic.


----------



## doureallycare2

A lot of my time has been spent wondering why didn’t I do something years and years ago, but after reading so many of these post with all the agony of the decisions with children involved, I’m actually not looking back any more with regret only thanksgiving that I’m not having to make these type of decisions and agonizing what if's. Good luck with whatever happens. My hope is that soon you and your children have more peace.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Hope for what? Are you thinking that Soca is really hoping that this is more than her making a decision of whether or not to stay for the boys?
> 
> It's not quite as cut and dried as you portray it when there are kids involved, O. *I'd* be perfectly thrilled if Ex went to Timbuktu with posGF, _but_ that's for my convenience. That isn't fair to DS.
> 
> We have to work with the ex spouses whether we want to or have a deep-seated hope or hate their guts. And our own possible dysfunctions, co-dependencies, etc., notwithstanding, there is definitely pressure on the BS to take the high ground, not obstruct relations with the kids, 'play nice,' etc., throughout the entire process. I saw it in the parenting orientation class we were all required to take. It doesn't matter WTF the other spouse does, we are supposed to be conciliatory, forgiving, accommodating, etc.
> 
> So sometimes, you stand there smiling and seemingly helpful, with your fingers crossed behind your back. At least I do now.


AP - I feel you understand the situation pretty clearly here. And O- I see your point as well.

Initially, I tried to take take action to show STBX what she would be missing and what she had to lose by opting out here in the hopes of "snapping" her out of it. It didn't work in the slightest. It has taken me months to get to the point where I can accept that this is the case. I have felt a true shift internally on my focus from "if I do this, she might do..." to just what I need to do for me and the boys. Not perfectly, no, but I believe a clear progression.

As I've indicated before, I'm not that dependent on another person making me "whole" or truthfully that I feel like I have lost the "love of life". That's not the case (that could be whole other thread which may be coming soon). I married STBX as I felt we had the same goals, aspirations, values, compatibility and enjoyment of each other. I see now that was a mis-step but one I can see myself moving past (especially with an out-of-sight, out-of-mind relationship moving forward).

So that leaves me with trying to figure out the best solution for the boys. As screwy as STBX comes across here, she has a very good rapport with them and they are very attached. And attached in a "4 of us" way. Which is why I was agreeing to the ski outings, etc as they really love the idea of a family unit (which has added tremendously to my efforts here to get this turned around).

Is it best tor STBX to be here with them in a split hosehold situation? Theoretically yes but now I don't trust her judgment, etc as indicated before. Will she go off the deep end? Maybe, maybe not but soemthing's definitely amiss now which I don't see improving. Which means hammering out a custody agreement here for me with decsion-making. However, this gives me the "free time" to rebuild my life but I feel that is also doing the boys a disservice by not providing a consistent situation.

Or is it best STBX returns to CA to live the life she truly wants. And then I worry tremendously about what kind of effect will that have on them. Would they see this as abndonment or rejection? Frankly easier for me emotionally but is it right for the kids? Plus this situation has another element to it that adds to the complexity. 

So I flip and flop between one scenario to another and really have no idea at this point how any of this will be received by STBX who I have to reach some sort of agreement with.

I think Z can relate to some of these questions.

As AP says, the BS is now forced into a position where we have to find some kind of balance between what is right for us and then what is right for the kids. And to be expected to do this all with a smile.


----------



## soca70

Quick update on this.

So just got off the phone with my attorney to make some revisions to the custody agreement. And the agreement includes the long-distance custody language which is cutomary in this county's agreements. So if STBX moves, it automatically goes into effect. Which means we would not have to re-negotiate anything. So the document covers both if STBX stays or if STBX goes.

She's sending over the revisions today for my review.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sounds like it's all slowly coming together....


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> So that leaves me with trying to figure out the best solution for the boys. As screwy as STBX comes across here, she has a very good rapport with them and they are very attached. And attached in a "4 of us" way. Which is why I was agreeing to the ski outings, etc as they really love the idea of a family unit (which has added tremendously to my efforts here to get this turned around).


This is rough territory. Since separation I've done this "family" thing a couple times, and refused a couple times. I refused to do New Years and my Bday together as I felt it was unnecessary. We did Xmas and D7's Bday together. Those worked out pretty well and I'm glad we did - because those two events were about her. 

My daughter of course loves it... but I'm not convinced it is healthy in many situations. I don't want her getting false hope from such events/outings. Yes, she has 2 parents who love her. But no... it is absolutely not the "3 of us" anymore. 

It is hard for us as adults to do that back and forth. I can only imagine how hard it must be on children who don't completely understand the situation.


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> This is rough territory. Since separation I've done this "family" thing a couple times, and refused a couple times. I refused to do New Years and my Bday together as I felt it was unnecessary. We did Xmas and D7's Bday together. Those worked out pretty well and I'm glad we did - because those two events were about her.
> 
> My daughter of course loves it... but I'm not convinced it is healthy in many situations. I don't want her getting false hope from such events/outings. Yes, she has 2 parents who love her. But no... it is absolutely not the "3 of us" anymore.
> 
> It is hard for us as adults to do that back and forth. I can only imagine how hard it must be on children who don't completely understand the situation.


I agree. It's a real struggle. I don't see us doing much together moving forward like this. The boys didn't know so I wanted to keep it as normal as possible as long as I could. Now they do so it's another story. It really breaks my heart for them.

What I think will help is that we have always done things independently with them from each other. I took the boys to Aruba last December with my family while STBX stayed home. I took them to GA/FL for a family visit 2 years ago while STBX stayed home to work. STBX was alternating one boy out to CA for 2 weeks several times a year while I stayed home with the other one, etc. But we have also done ski trips all together, a Cape Cod vacation just before D-day, ect so that's gone.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> What I think will help is that we have always done things independently with them from each other. I took the boys to Aruba last December with my family while STBX stayed home. I took them to GA/FL for a family visit 2 years ago while STBX stayed home to work. STBX was alternating one boy out to CA for 2 weeks several times a year while I stayed home with the other one, etc. But we have also done ski trips all together, a Cape Cod vacation just before D-day, ect so that's gone.


It's good you have a precedent to point back to when explaining. This has helped my D7. "Remember when we drove here and did this, just the two of us.." 

My IC pointed me to a good book too. "Dinosaur's Divorce". It's a children's book that explains many aspects of the process and life afterward in simple terms with illustrations.


----------



## angelpixie

Yes, having that background is really helpful. We didn't, as we have no family around. We always went on trips together, had big holiday things for the 3 of us, etc. 

But you might find that the kids will eventually stop asking to have things with all of you together. DS asked to have us all together on Christmas Eve and Day 2012 (the first one I lived in my own place), I was even invited to ex's birthday party thrown by his friends earlier in the fall (I didn't go), we did a family birthday for DS at Ex's house, and his birthday party for friends at my place (both of us at both events). This past birthday and Christmas, however, we asked DS what he wanted. In that intervening year, enough had changed that he requested separate Christmas visits, and though we did have his birthday all together a couple months before that, it was so uncomfortable and awkward that he told me he won't want to do that again.

Mine's older than all of yours, S and Z (he's 10 now), but I think he was already able to see the changes in that previous year as we both established separate lives, and our interaction with each other grew more distant and less familiar. 

Having fun with each of us individually was better than a very uncomfortable attempt to do things as a 'family.' If new partners enter the situation for either of you (as it did for Ex) that is even more the case.


----------



## soca70

And here's the response:

Thank you for the suggestion, but that is not going to work. Clearly, my home is now in Ohio with the boys.


----------



## angelpixie

Hrm. How does that make you feel, Soca?


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> And here's the response:
> 
> Thank you for the suggestion, but that is not going to work. Clearly, my home is now in Ohio with the boys.


I am glad she didn't accept the offer. Even if she doesn't want to be a wife, she should still be a full-time, present, mother.


----------



## soca70

Mixed feelings. I thought it was a long shot anyway so not really disappointed. Also, in a way somewhat relieved that STBX has not checked out altogether.

However, this will make it tougher for me emotionally to come to indifference. Instead of 2500 miles away, STBX is 1500 yards away for now. And i really don't like the idea of a split household for the kids nor have a strong sense of faith in STBX's judgment which I will have to keep on top of.

It's probably best for the boys - I couldn't imagine the feeling of abandonment by a parent. And provides me with time to rebuild. But puts me back trying to negotiate the stronger settlement. I sent a copy to my parents to review also and will call them tonight to discuss. And then direct the lawyer to send to opposing counsel tomorrow and then see what the response is.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> I am glad she didn't accept the offer. Even if she doesn't want to be a wife, she should still be a full-time, present, mother.


Agreed


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca,
> 
> Did you ever ask her or have the conversation about what her "plan" was?
> 
> If my wife ever said something like hat to me I would have gotten answer.
> 
> HM64


HM - yes the expectation was that by having the kids, it would make STBX love me more. Can you see why I question the judgment?


----------



## happyman64

I understand Soca.

And to be honest I am glad she declined the offer.

At least we know some brain cells are working in her head.


----------



## soca70

So STBX calls at 7:50 to talk to the boys. And last night at 8:10. Last night, I actually got them up as they were getting ready for bed to call back which got them wound up and it took me awhile to get them settled back down. The deal was to call at 7:30 to talk with them. I remembered what Conrad said "STBX thinks his time is her time" so I let tonight's call go. And after they were asleep, I texted that STBX has been calling during bedtime and needs to call prior to 7:30 if she wants to talk to them.

So in other being a d**k news, I would appreciate some input on a practical (yet potentially "outslicking myself") matter. I have 4 bedrooms in this house. One is the master, one the boys share with twin beds, a guest bedroom, and an oversized bedroom which we converted to a playroom with a sectional/TV/train table. 

The 2-3 yr plan was to finish the basement and use that as a media/music/playroom. Now that's not going to happen. However, the sharing of the bedrooms for the boys is not working with one parent (and very rarely two) as they cannot quit enetrtaining each other enough to settle down. So I have one that sleeps in the boys room and one that I put down in the guest bedroom. STBX has been sleeping with one in the guest bedroom since the separation.

I would like to keep the playroom as it's a good "staging" area for bedtime after baths, etc. And would like to convert the guest bedroom into the other boy's bedroom. Downside is I won'y have a guest room. I really have no overnight guests as my family is here but I like the idea of having one if needed.

This guest bedroom is furnished with my original master furniture from when I was single and I could move it all to the basement.

Now, the outslicking part...

I am VERY tempted to make this change this weekend and Monday while STBX is out of town. One of the other big benefits is that STBX will not have a bed at this house to sleep in. There is however the sectional in the playroom. What is proving to be a motivation is the thought of those online personal ads and STBX sleeping like a log in MY bed with MY furniture.

Do you guys think this would be justified or just being a d**K?


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca

I wouldnt surprise her with it. Reminds me of my Evil One wife, something sneaky and petty. 

Text or email her that you're doing it. Then do it. 

Living vicariously through you, I think I hate your wife almost as much as mine, no offense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Do what is best for you and the boys. That's all that matters now.


----------



## happyman64

You are being a ****. But I do like your plan.

But in all seriousness finish the divorce.

Get her out then make whatever plans you want.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> So STBX calls at 7:50 to talk to the boys. And last night at 8:10. Last night, I actually got them up as they were getting ready for bed to call back which got them wound up and it took me awhile to get them settled back down. The deal was to call at 7:30 to talk with them. I remembered what Conrad said "STBX thinks his time is her time" so I let tonight's call go. And after they were asleep, I texted that STBX has been calling during bedtime and needs to call prior to 7:30 if she wants to talk to them.
> 
> So in other being a d**k news, I would appreciate some input on a practical (yet potentially "outslicking myself") matter. I have 4 bedrooms in this house. One is the master, one the boys share with twin beds, a guest bedroom, and an oversized bedroom which we converted to a playroom with a sectional/TV/train table.
> 
> The 2-3 yr plan was to finish the basement and use that as a media/music/playroom. Now that's not going to happen. However, the sharing of the bedrooms for the boys is not working with one parent (and very rarely two) as they cannot quit enetrtaining each other enough to settle down. So I have one that sleeps in the boys room and one that I put down in the guest bedroom. STBX has been sleeping with one in the guest bedroom since the separation.
> 
> I would like to keep the playroom as it's a good "staging" area for bedtime after baths, etc. And would like to convert the guest bedroom into the other boy's bedroom. Downside is I won'y have a guest room. I really have no overnight guests as my family is here but I like the idea of having one if needed.
> 
> This guest bedroom is furnished with my original master furniture from when I was single and I could move it all to the basement.
> 
> Now, the outslicking part...
> 
> I am VERY tempted to make this change this weekend and Monday while STBX is out of town. One of the other big benefits is that STBX will not have a bed at this house to sleep in. There is however the sectional in the playroom. What is proving to be a motivation is the thought of those online personal ads and STBX sleeping like a log in MY bed with MY furniture.
> 
> Do you guys think this would be justified or just being a d**K?


Do it.

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate

And, unapologetically.


----------



## zillard

happyman64 said:


> You are being a ****. But I do like your plan.
> 
> But in all seriousness finish the divorce.
> 
> Get her out then make whatever plans you want.


I disagree. 

She wants out, right? She's been clear on that. 

You are not kicking her out of the house. You are not leaving her with "no place to sleep". 

She's been sleeping with one son already. If she chooses to continue doing that she can sleep in HIS room (same bed, right?). 

And as many of us here know, a couch is a perfectly suitable place to sleep when necessary.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> Do it.
> 
> Cool
> 
> Firm
> 
> Dispassionate
> 
> And, unapologetically.


I'm just curious...

If she's decent enough to co-parent, why not do it? Shouldn't big decisions, such as separating the boys' sleeping quarters be, at least, discussed?


----------



## soca70

Also take into consideration she has a place right around the corner - fully furnished.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I'm just curious...
> 
> If she's decent enough to co-parent, why not do it? Shouldn't big decisions, such as separating the boys' sleeping quarters be, at least, discussed?


"STBX has been sleeping with one in the guest bedroom since the separation."

They are already separated.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> "STBX has been sleeping with one in the guest bedroom since the separation."
> 
> They are already separated.


I understand that. To me, a permenant replacement should be handled by both parents...while they still reside in the same home. 

Because they do.

My point is, why remove her from all the decision making where their children are involved?


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I understand that. To me, a permenant replacement should be handled by both parents...while they still reside in the same home.
> 
> Because they do.
> 
> My point is, why remove her from all the decision making where their children are involved?


Because she *does* have a place around the corner. Her sleeping in this house at all is cake eating. 

As HappyMan once told me:

"She does not deserve easy or convenience in her life right now."


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> As HappyMan once told me:
> 
> "She does not deserve easy or convenience in her life right now."


What is easy or convenient about a simple discussion concerning their kids?


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Also take into consideration she has a place right around the corner - fully furnished.


It's not about HER.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> I understand that. To me, a permenant replacement should be handled by both parents...while they still reside in the same home.
> 
> Because they do.
> 
> My point is, why remove her from all the decision making where their children are involved?


I see both points. STBX has already set up the boys room with bunk beds in the rental. She did tell me she was doing that but even if I had said no, she would have done it anyway. She's done up that rental with no input/asking opinions from me and the boys will be living there as well.

Yes if I do it without "consulting" then I am doing something on my own.

So, clearly the boys are sleeping separately and have been doing so since October when STBX retreated to the guest bedroom. We call the guest bedroom "the cowboy room" as it's furnished in a style when I used to work the Rocky Mountain states. S___ is now calling the "Cowboy Room", his room. 

I can see the push back as STBX nows the sectional is the only option. But I am not the one who will not leave here. She's got a 3 BR rental fully furnished around the corner and has had since November and has now committed to staying over there 2 nights a week until this is done. Potentially until July.

How does letting STBX know via text I am making this change and then just do it? Being here on my own for 2 weeks is proving to me I've got to start getting this "show on the road".


----------



## HappyKaty

You know what? Nevermind. I just read through the recent posts about the "nuclear" option, and I'm taking it entirely too personal.

Do what's best for your boys.


----------



## soca70

PS - appreciate the input!


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> You know what? Nevermind. I just read through the recent posts about the "nuclear" option, and I'm taking it entirely too personal.
> 
> Do what's best for your boys.


Nuclear option on hold - trying to work it out. Not sure what you mean...


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Nuclear option on hold - trying to work it out. Not sure what you mean...


I cannot have my own children. It breaks my heart to think that because I cannot be a biological mother, my children would never really be considered my own, where I have just as much input as my husband who is their "real" parent.

Again - my opinion is jaded. You have to do what's best for them.


----------



## zillard

I see it like this: as soon as she got a rental she committed to NOT living in the same house as you. So what you do in that house is up to you (absent damaging her things, etc - which would be a **** move).

You involving her in a decision about moving small amounts of furniture and decor around is enabling and approval-seeking.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> I cannot have my own children. It breaks my heart to think that because I cannot be a biological mother, my children would never really be considered my own, where I have just as much input as my husband who is their "real" parent.


Yes I can defintely see your perspective. And it what makes all of this so difficult. It's like using something that you are opposed to for an advantage but may prove to be a better outcome for the kids. I have struggled with this since Day 1 of D-day. Never once had I ever had these thoughts prior to this.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> I cannot have my own children. It breaks my heart to think that because I cannot be a biological mother, my children would never really be considered my own, where I have just as much input as my husband who is their "real" parent.
> 
> Again - my opinion is jaded. You have to do what's best for them.


I am going to be blunt.

In your situation, if your husband would be kind enough to pay for IVF with donor eggs, would you pull the crap Soca's wife did?

I have to say that of all the tales I read here, I find his wife's behavior to be colder than Frostine.

To quote my old friend bandit...

The hell with the b!tch.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> I am going to be blunt.
> 
> In your situation, if your husband would be kind enough to pay for IVF with donor eggs, would you pull the crap Soca's wife did?
> 
> I have to say that of all the tales I read here, I find his wife's behavior to be colder than Frostine.
> 
> To quote my old friend bandit...
> 
> The hell with the b!tch.


To hell with her as his wife...YES.

She is still, and always will be, the mother of his children.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Yes I can defintely see your perspective. And it what makes all of this so difficult. It's like using something that you are opposed to for an advantage but may prove to be a better outcome for the kids. I have struggled with this since Day 1 of D-day. Never once had I ever had these thoughts prior to this.


How in the HELL is denying a child of their mother a better option?


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> To hell with her as his wife...YES.
> 
> She is still, and always will be, the mother of his children.


I don't think there is any upside in pleasing her.

Do you?

She needs to show her hand.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> I don't think there is any upside in pleasing her.
> 
> Do you?
> 
> She needs to show her hand.


You're not "pleasing her" by allowing her to be a mother.

That's the right she gained by carrying them for nine months and giving birth to them.


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> I see it like this: as soon as she got a rental she committed to NOT living in the same house as you. So what you do in that house is up to you (absent damaging her things, etc - which would be a **** move).
> 
> You involving her in a decision about moving small amounts of furniture and decor around is enabling and approval-seeking.


This is mostly my thinking as well. 

Frankly, this whole situation has been a goat-rope for me. Is this inflammatory? Is this allowing cake-eating? Will this upset the boys? Am I being fair? Am I being bitter and a small person? Am I not standing up for myself? Should I just be amicable and step aside for peace and get over it?

And then I think look I have someone in the house that as Katy has reminded me several times "does not want to work on it" and VERY clearly has stated she's done after an initial blindside and hightailing it out of town for 2 weeks. Who has given no consideration to the boys' feelings (nor mine). And is currently actively looking for new relationships. Even while negotiating something as delicate as custody of her own kids. With no awareness or concern how I may feel about that or as stated "I'm being ridiculous" when confronted. And as Conrad has also stated really shown me no respect at all through this.

So my wanting to be an amicable co-parent and make life comfortable for STBX is really at a low point. At what point does a person draw the line? I haven't thrown clothes in the street, kicked someone out the door, screamed in their face. Really STBX has not suffered any consequesnces at all except having to see me 5 nights a week.

Jesus no wonder I'm on this board.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> You're not "pleasing her" by allowing her to be a mother.
> 
> That's the right she gained by carrying them for nine months and giving birth to them.


So he should make sure she's comfy and has a place to sleep in the house she abandoned?


----------



## Conrad

Or that she should have the option of entertaining male consorts in the bed he bought for them?


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> How in the HELL is denying a child of their mother a better option?


I'm not looking to deny anything. My concern is some of the shared parenting final decision-making as my IC and everyone else is indicating something is "off" at this point. We've both agreed to the visiatation schedule which is roughly 60/40.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> You're not "pleasing her" by allowing her to be a mother.
> 
> That's the right she gained by carrying them for nine months and giving birth to them.


Moving furniture around is not denying her any motherly rights. 

He isn't locking her out. He isn't refusing to let her see her children. 

As a co-parent, I have the right to do whatever I wish with my child in my house as long as it is not detrimental to her. I must include my X in decisions regarding schooling, healthcare, etc. 

On the flip side. I have no right to make any demands about what my X does with my daughter while she is with her mother. I will not stick my nose into decisions about where my daughter sleeps, plays or eats while with her mother. That is up to her. I have no control over that. 

It works both ways.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> So he should make sure she's comfy and has a place to sleep in the house she abandoned?


No. As I stated previously, "to hell with her as a wife". However, I feel like she is trying to pursue amicable co-parenting, and that should be reciprocated. And, by amicable, I do not mean kissing her ass.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> No. As I stated previously, "to hell with her as a wife". However, I feel like she is trying to pursue amicable co-parenting, and that should be reciprocated. And, by amicable, I do not mean kissing her ass.


I see what you mean.

Did you read the part about their ride to the airport?

What did you think about that?


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> No. As I stated previously, "to hell with her as a wife". However, I feel like she is trying to pursue amicable co-parenting, and that should be reciprocated. And, by amicable, I do not mean kissing her ass.


"Can I move DS's toys and clothes into the guestroom?" IS kissing her ***.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Moving furniture around is not denying her any motherly rights.
> 
> He isn't locking her out. He isn't refusing to let her see her children.
> 
> As a co-parent, I have the right to do whatever I wish with my child in my house as long as it is not detrimental to her. I must include my X in decisions regarding schooling, healthcare, etc.
> 
> On the flip side. I have no right to make any demands about what my X does with my daughter while she is with her mother. I will not stick my nose into decisions about where my daughter sleeps, plays or eats while with her mother. That is up to her. I have no control over that.
> 
> It works both ways.


I agree.

However, you and X are not in the same position as are Soca and his thing. Regardless of how many rentals she has, she still resides there, for the majority of the time, and he still indulges in the "family activities".


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> "Can I move DS's toys and clothes into the guestroom?" IS kissing her ***.


Yes, she has forfeited her veto over household decisions.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> I see what you mean.
> 
> Did you read the part about their ride to the airport?
> 
> What did you think about that?


He was kissing her ass.

Ski trip...kissing her ass.

Family movie night...kissing her ass.

Allowing her to stay there while she has a rental and is actively pursuing relationships...kissing her ass.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> He was kissing her ass.
> 
> Ski trip...kissing her ass.
> 
> Family movie night...kissing her ass.
> 
> Allowing her to stay there while she has a rental and is actively pursuing relationships...kissing her ass.


Agreed. Thanks.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> He was kissing her ass.
> 
> Ski trip...kissing her ass.
> 
> Family movie night...kissing her ass.
> 
> Allowing her to stay there while she has a rental and is actively pursuing relationships...kissing her ass.


Yes. And it will have to stop sometime. 

Might as well be while she is out of town.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Yes. And it will have to stop sometime.
> 
> Might as well be while she is out of town.


I think I've made it clear that I don't agree with the ass kissing part. 

My issue is the manipulation at the expense of the kids. For fvcks sake...make it about two grown people and their differences. She's a POS wife, yes. But, she never pulled the sh1t your wife did, by signing papers to allow her child to be removed from her care. In fact, from what I've read, she's a good mom with a "good rapport". 

Why try to push her out of their lives?


----------



## soca70

Katy - I know where the opposition to this is coming from. I really do. And if this had gone down differently, I (and my family) would have had a much different perspective.

Not to sugarcoat it, but STBX looks to now be leading or wanting to lead some sort of "double life". PTO parent and Church trustee and making sexually suggestive soliciations to 26 year olds for hook ups. I know - I saw them. And was dismissed as being "ridiculous" when confronted.

This scares the hell out of me for my kids. I have no idea what is really going on with STBX. I have to protect them any way I can even if to some it's distasteful. Hell it's distasteful and offensive to me!

I can't legally get her out of here as we both own this house and she won't leave. But has repeatedly stated she doesn't want to be here and end this charade.

Really what do I do?


----------



## HappyKaty

Maybe I've misread your posts, or misunderstood them. From what you've told us, she seems to be a caring mother, whom your boys adore.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I think I've made it clear that I don't agree with the ass kissing part.
> 
> My issue is the manipulation at the expense of the kids. For fvcks sake...make it about two grown people and their differences. She's a POS wife, yes. But, she never pulled the sh1t your wife did, by signing papers to allow her child to be removed from her care. In fact, from what I've read, she's a good mom with a "good rapport".
> 
> Why try to push her out of their lives?


It's not about where the kids sleep. They'll be sleeping in the same places they've been sleeping since October. It's about where she sleeps.

Admittedly, it could be a bit passive aggressive. A better approach would probably be to just come right out and tell her:

"If we are divorcing I'm not ok with you sleeping here. At all".


----------



## zillard

Via text while she is gone. And then do it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> Maybe I've misread your posts, or misunderstood them. From what you've told us, she seems to be a caring mother, whom your boys adore.


Yes which has been the difficulty. If she was terrible, no second thoughts. I just really don't know what direction she's headed and the potential fall-out for the boys. 

But those online ads have really raised a red flag for me (not to mention just the initial walking away and subsequent actions). We live in a medium-sized city but in a very small school district where everyone pretty much knows everyone else's business and keeps an eye out on the kids. Like you will know what happened at school before your kids get home. And now STBX is out looking for God-knows-what, that could very easily get around very quickly. Or are a parade of men through that rental? What child wants that humiliation? I brought this up to STBX and my concern wasn't that she didn't care but was truly unaware of this potential. 

STBX has a track record of bad choices an I could easily start seeing partying with guys in their 20s. Remember she has only been sober with me and never really worked a program.

Maybe this is worst-case scenario thinking and will never come to pass but I would hope that you could see my concerns here.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Maybe this is worst-case scenario thinking and will never come to pass but I would hope that you could see my concerns here.


I do see your concerns, and they're valid. There just seems to be tons of manipulation to show her what she'll be missing. I think you've finally realized that you can't change her mind, but, to me, it looks like you're still holding the boys over her head. She's walking out on you...not the kids. THAT does not make her unworthy. It just makes her stupid.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Via text while she is gone. And then do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is perfect.

"It has come to my attention that the boys require separate sleeping quarters. Moving forward, at my home, they will sleep in separate rooms."


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> That is perfect.
> 
> "It has come to my attention that the boys require separate sleeping quarters. Moving forward, at my home, they will sleep in separate rooms."


Yes. Informing. No asking. Your home.


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks so much for all the input last night. It really got me to thinking what is the motivation for making a change like this.

Frankly, I don't want to co-parent. I don't want to be amicable with someone who has pretty much spit in my face after years of emotional and financial investment. I don't want to co-parent with someone who I see now as irresponsible and self-serving. I don't want to co-parent with someone who I now see as a potential liability for my kids.

Since STBX has been out of town, the stress level has decreased exponentially, the boys' behavior has improved dramatically, life has been pretty damn pleasant.

But, the fact is, I will have to. And figure out a way to make this work for me and the boys. If "holding something over her head" is going to keep STBX in line reagrding actions that could harm the boys, well that might be warranted. I've already discussed adding mandatory sobriety into the agreement and STBX is well aware that if that is breached, all bets are off.

I'm at a place now where I've let STBX go emotionally but am still not able to move on due to the situation. I'm sick of the limbo, sick of the walking on eggshells, sick of trying to balance this whole thing, sick of it just consuming so much of my energy and thoughts.

I was thinking this morning of this couple that was in a "Parents of Infants and Toddlers" group we were in at church a few years ago. They had adopted two kids from the Dominican Republic and were always all over each other in this group. And then ended up divorced about a year later. And I thought to myself - what losers to take on that responsibility and not be able to carry through. And now I'm in a similar boat. Well I don't feel like a loser but I do feel like I have failed here.


----------



## catcalls

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## catcalls

Hi soca, been reading your thread and all i can say is that you are a decent person. Hence you feel uneasy about making this decision. Does she pay the mortgage on your house and contribute to bills. Even if she does it is no longer her house. Hence no need to inform her about changes in your house. Also if she asks tell her the sooner you change their sleeping situation the faster they will adapt.
Get the boys enthusiastic about it by shopping for their bedsheets and duvet covers etc good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

catcalls said:


> Hi soca, been reading your thread and all i can say is that you are a decent person. Hence you feel uneasy about making this decision. Does she pay the mortgage on your house and contribute to bills. Even if she does it is no longer her house. Hence no need to inform her about changes in your house. Also if she asks tell her the sooner you change their sleeping situation the faster they will adapt.
> Get the boys enthusiastic about it by shopping for their bedsheets and duvet covers etc good luck
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Catcalls - thanks for the input.

STBX pays one-half the mortgage minus property taxes as she won't be claiming the tax deduction for 2013. And only paying this as we have not resolved a title issue and I cannot sell or refinance at this point. Not paying any of the household bills anymore as she has her own now at the rental. You're right that this is pretty much mine at this point.

Thanks for the suggestions and good wishes!


----------



## BrockLanders

You should turn her room into a "man-cave."


----------



## happyman64

HappyKaty said:


> To hell with her as his wife...YES.
> 
> She is still, and always will be, the mother of his children.


Yes she will always be their mother as long as she decides to stay in their lives.

From her response to Soca she is in their lives.

But her long term actions will be what truly decides if she will remai her mother.

Personally, i hope she does the right for the boys. But she certainly has not done right by Soca for a while now.

Hopefully, the divorce will not be a reflection of her desire to be a mother.

HM64

PS

*And Soca you are far from a failure so do not say it again.*

In a marriage it takes two. But it only takes one to fail. And you did not make that decision did you?


----------



## Ceegee

happyman64 said:


> PS
> 
> *And Soca you are far from a failure so do not say it again.*
> 
> In a marriage it takes two. But it only takes one to fail. And you did not make that decision did you?


HM, you beat me to it - you are no failure SOCA. After reading this entire thread no one will think you have failed. You are fighting against the one person who was supposed to help you protect your family - and you are succeeding.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> HM, you beat me to it - you are no failure SOCA. After reading this entire thread no one will think you have failed. You are fighting against the one person who was supposed to help you protect your family - and you are succeeding.


One more step.

Stop kissing her ass.


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for the encouragement. Just back from the gym and re-upped my personal trainer for another year. Feel much better mentally. I had started back up training last March and knocked off 35 pounds by D-day and keeping up with the gym 3x/week has helped a lot through this.

I'm leaning with taking Katy/Z's advice and texting a heads up about the bedroom. Will take a look at some furniture on Sunday. It shouldn't be a big deal with the boys as they have been in the same bedroom as well as separate bedrooms in previous houses so it won't be some kind of "missing the other" thing. More of a moving forward and eliminating some of the (as catcalls pointed out) not fully paid for comforts of home for STBX. It will depend on whether I can find the time and furniture.

"Family Movie Night" tonight as usual. Tomorrow off to my sister's for the rest of the weekend for the big sleep-over Saturday night. My one boy said he was so excited about it he wished it was tomorrow already On the agenda - volleyball game, arcade and game room, horse-riding.

In other child-rearing news, I had to visit the director of the after-school program as my one boy had been repeatedly yelling "F**k it! F**k it!" during snack time. I can assuer all worried thread-readers that neither Soca nor STBX ever use language like that in front of the kids and I have never heard that used before. So I spoke with him. Of course he was mortified I had to talk to the teacher and had no idea what that word meant. I asked him where he heard it and he said "William (best friend) told me." I just gave a gentle heads up that that is not a word kids use and refernced "A Christmas Story". If it had been my other one, he would have used it in context and relished it!  Of course sometimes I agree with the sentiment expressed


----------



## happyman64

> my one boy had been repeatedly yelling "F**k it! F**k it!" during snack time.



Maybe your boy was reading your mind Soca???

Anything is possible you know......

Have a great weekend.


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> Maybe your boy was reading your mind Soca???
> 
> Anything is possible you know......
> 
> Have a great weekend.


Distant relative of Bandit?


----------



## happyman64

Conrad

You made me p!ss my pants just now.

HM64


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good update, Soca. I can sleep now knowing you and family safely esconsed. 

Have a great weekend.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Good update, Soca. I can sleep now knowing you and family safely esconsed.
> 
> Have a great weekend.


Thanks, BW. Just the typical TAM Friday night - "Wreck-It Ralph", Pizza Hut, and then stalking through the online personals for any of STBX's online shennaigans . The positive take-away is no activity and a deactivated account since 2/19 when I read the riot act.

One day at a time, my friend!


----------



## soca70

Plus reeling from the loss of a banned Conrad


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Thanks, BW. Just the typical TAM Friday night - "Wreck-It Ralph", Pizza Hut, and then stalking through the online personals for any of STBX's online shennaigans . The positive take-away is no activity and a deactivated account since 2/19 when I read the riot act.
> 
> One day at a time, my friend!


Wreck-it Ralph is a great movie!


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> Wreck-it Ralph is a great movie!


Yes we saw it in the theaters and just watched it again on PPV cable. Boys really liked it and I did too.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Thanks, BW. Just the typical TAM Friday night - "Wreck-It Ralph", Pizza Hut, and then *stalking through the online personals for any of STBX's online shennaigans* . The positive take-away is no activity and a deactivated account since 2/19 when I read the riot act.
> 
> One day at a time, my friend!


Is this just morbid curiosity, or is there a method to your madness?


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Is this just morbid curiosity, or is there a method to your madness?


Ha! If you recall the initial discovery was after President's Day weekend and the trip to Orlando where I confronted STBX about this and she shut the account down the next day. 

I took my IC's and TAM's advice not to pursue this any further as I had seen all I needed to see and why torture myself?

But this has really stuck in my mind since about the objectives of STBX in the future and how it relates to the boys. So tonight I conducted a thorough search to see if she came to her senses and maybe that was just as she put it "something to do because she was bored out of her mind since everyone was out of town."

What do you think, AP - morbid curiosity or some sort of method? Or just backsliding?


----------



## HappyKaty

I have to ask you, Soca. Are you going to question her parenting regardless of who she chooses to date? Or, is it just the younger man thing that gets you. (Aside from the fact, of course, that she's searching while married...I do understand that little nuisance. )


----------



## Bullwinkle

Glad you had a goodcevening with the lads. 

I don't know why but that whole on-line ad thing really struck a nerve with me, it's so disrespectful and you made a good point earlier about you have to keep an eye on her and this kind of crap for your boys' sake, you don't know the kind of scrotes these ads might attract. But you said no postings lately.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Ha! If you recall the initial discovery was after President's Day weekend and the trip to Orlando where I confronted STBX about this and she shut the account down the next day.
> 
> I took my IC's and TAM's advice not to pursue this any further as I had seen all I needed to see and why torture myself?
> 
> But this has really stuck in my mind since about the objectives of STBX in the future and how it relates to the boys. So tonight I conducted a thorough search to see if she came to her senses and maybe that was just as she put it "something to do because she was bored out of her mind since everyone was out of town."
> 
> What do you think, AP - morbid curiosity or some sort of method? Or just backsliding?





HappyKaty said:


> I have to ask you, Soca. Are you going to question her parenting regardless of who she chooses to date? Or, is it just the younger man thing that gets you. (Aside from the fact, of course, that she's searching while married...I do understand that little nuisance. )


Be honest about your motives, Soca, that's all I'm saying. Since it looks like R is out the window, is the _only_ reason you're concerned about her being on dating site that she might hook up with guys that will somehow negatively affect your boys? If she was looking for clean-cut, employed, intelligent guys her own age, would you still be stalking her posts on the dating sites? 

That's the way I was with FB for a while after I moved out. I _had_ to know what Ex was up to, and looked up photos he took, posted on his business' web page (90% females, some nude, most suggestive), also photos posted of him that popped up on FB because he was tagged in them. Just reinforced what I already knew about him, but because he didn't have DS involved in any of it, it wasn't affecting his parenting at all. It was just masochism, nothing else.

I know there's lots and lots of stuff out there that would make me really angry and hurt, and I've known that for well over a year now. But aside from one backslide that I documented on my old thread, where I thought I was strong enough to share photos of him and posGF with others on here, I haven't looked any more. There's no point. 

I don't _like_ the girls that are in his posse. I wouldn't choose to have them around DS. But they're not doing anything that is harming him, so I can't legally do anything about it. It may be that you'll have to let go, too. Her behavior might disgust you and disappoint you, but you might have to just put it out of your mind.


----------



## happyman64

To Be Honest Soca stop caring about what she does.

Just focus on you.

I know it hurts to be the spouse that gets cast aside. I do.

The way I look at it and you should to.

Her loss your gain!

When you look at her behavior, how she has handled your relationship pre bombshell and post bombshell I think you will be trading up.

I really do.

Your wife is never going to be happy. Will she hook some OM? Of course.

Should you care as long as they have no repurcussions for your boys? No.

Because by that time you better be moving on and on the prowl for a woman that loves you for you. And everything you have to offer.

You will see what happens when word is out on the street that Soca is on the market......

You are a good catch.

I just hope your wife makes herself available to babysit!!

Maybe a few Starbucks gift cards for her coffee will make her more accessible while you are out replacing her!!!
Put the focus on you and your boys or I will send you the 2x4's since Conrad is on a break.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Evening, Soca. Hope all is well.


----------



## staystrong

Your future has a soundtrack...


----------



## angelpixie

^^ :rofl:


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Be honest about your motives, Soca, that's all I'm saying. Since it looks like R is out the window, is the _only_ reason you're concerned about her being on dating site that she might hook up with guys that will somehow negatively affect your boys? If she was looking for clean-cut, employed, intelligent guys her own age, would you still be stalking her posts on the dating sites?
> 
> That's the way I was with FB for a while after I moved out. I _had_ to know what Ex was up to, and looked up photos he took, posted on his business' web page (90% females, some nude, most suggestive), also photos posted of him that popped up on FB because he was tagged in them. Just reinforced what I already knew about him, but because he didn't have DS involved in any of it, it wasn't affecting his parenting at all. It was just masochism, nothing else.
> 
> I know there's lots and lots of stuff out there that would make me really angry and hurt, and I've known that for well over a year now. But aside from one backslide that I documented on my old thread, where I thought I was strong enough to share photos of him and posGF with others on here, I haven't looked any more. There's no point.
> 
> I don't _like_ the girls that are in his posse. I wouldn't choose to have them around DS. But they're not doing anything that is harming him, so I can't legally do anything about it. It may be that you'll have to let go, too. Her behavior might disgust you and disappoint you, but you might have to just put it out of your mind.


Guys - hope everybody had a good weekend!

Back home after a weekend at my sister's house with her family. Good time had by all! The horse was a big hit and I talked to the stablemaster about what is needed to get the boys riding. My niece is excited to start showing them the ropes. I have one that fell asleep in the car for 45 minutes so is now up and down and will probably be so until 10:30.

Reviewing the posts and had given more thought to what is bothering me about the online ads. One is I'm not surprised because sooner or later STBX will be really out looking to meet other people. And I guess that's a visual reminder of the truth of that and also that I'm not what she wants anymore. In fairness, only a 2 of the guys were in their 20s, the rest age-appropriate. Still to be reviewing 9 guys on the "Hot List" is not a good feeling and the self-comparison/contrasting kicks in which is why I need to leave that alone.

Also, I realized that even if STBX dicovers a cure for cancer, I will still find some kind of fault and a reason that it's detrimental to the boys. I'm just not ready yet to put a positive spin on any of her actions. Just leaving is enough of a detrimental action in my perspective and nothing she does going forward is going to minimize that for me.

So tomorrow I will be speaking with my attorney and sending the revised agreement to opposing counsel for review and we'll take it from there.


----------



## soca70

My own online pic posting


----------



## soca70

SS - I was using this as the soundtrack for now...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Morning, Soca. Any new developments? WS comes back Tuesday, right? You picking her up at the airport?


----------



## soca70

And good morning to you too, BW!

Got the boys off to school in the pouring rain this morning. One says to me how excited he is STBX is coming back tomorrow. So my two week plan of parental alienation failed (before anyone has a stroke I'm just kidding ).

Authorized the lawyer to send the agreement over today. And will be picking up the dog from boarding soon - who will also be living in a split household moving forward and going with the boys for company. Even though dog is mine, I'm allowing this for the kids. 

Getting together with my mother to look at kids bedroom furniture and then to the gym. Somewhere some work may happen. And then gymnastics tonight.

WS will be taking a cab home from the airport tomorrow.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca, normally I would jokingly say, hey, you have it so together, you're going to make someone a lovely wife some day. But I suspect you'd then fly to DC and gut me like a trout. 

Sounds like a god day planned. 

And sorry for the question about the airport, it was a leading question.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Soca, normally I would jokingly say, hey, you have it so together, you're going to make someone a lovely wife some day. But I suspect you'd then fly to DC and gut me like a trout.
> 
> Sounds like a god day planned.
> 
> And sorry for the question about the airport, it was a leading question.


Ha! And STBX complained that although I did the laundry, I kept mixing whites and darks which she considered a sign of disrespect. I said then do your own laundry then - at least it's getting done! Ahhh, marital bliss.

NP about the airport. I had a clear indication from the previous discussion how that was seen. STBX gets in late tomorrow night so cab was the only solution.

Hang in there!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Funny, that, I got the same laundry speech. Maybe it's a woman thing but I never associated socks and underwear with respect. 

Tally ho!


----------



## angelpixie

Oh, you guys with your "men's thing" and "women's thing" comments!  

Since we wear so much cotton, I always wash clothing on cold. Except for reds, I don't bother to separate colors. It hasn't been a problem. I'd have been happy for the help, believe me. However, no matter how many times Ex would shrink our clothes, he often could not resist turning up the temp on the washer and/or dryer. He has real passive-aggressive issues; it's not because he's a man, er, male. So, I ended up doing the laundry to save money, haha. 

Hmmm...maybe that's why I see him in new clothes so often now that he's on his own... :rofl:


----------



## Bullwinkle

AP, I have become convinced that THIS is where most marriages start to go south - not drinking problems, infidelities, abuse - it's laundry.


----------



## happyman64

Then you both should do what I do when it comes to doing the laundry??

Wash everything in cold. 

Not too much detergent

Not too much softener.

And when your kids are old enough make them fold it for their mother not for you.

Guilt is a remarkable tool when used properly!


----------



## happyman64

Oh and in case you are wondering why I posted above here is the reason.

Even when they are no longer your wives they will be the mother of your children.

And when your child does something their mother does not expect or they do something that takes them by surprise and it pleases them the first question out of their mind is this:

"Honey how on earth did you know how to do this? This was such a nice surprise!"

and while their Mother is all happy and glowing over their child your kid will say this:

"Daddy taught me how Mommy!" and your kid will be all happy that he/she pleased their Mother.

But I will gurantee you that their Mother is not thinking about their child right now but their exspouse. The exspouse that they gave up.

So be examples for your children. Teach them. Nurture them. Show them respect and demand respect in return.

*So that they turn out to be more like you is the motto of the story.....*


----------



## angelpixie

happyman64 said:


> Then you both should do what I do when it comes to doing the laundry??
> 
> Wash everything in cold.
> 
> Not too much detergent
> 
> Not too much softener.
> 
> And when your kids are old enough make them fold it for their mother not for you.
> 
> Guilt is a remarkable tool when used properly!


See above -- that's exactly what I do. And DS folds and puts his own laundry away. And is in charge of making sure his dirty stuff gets in the hamper, or it's not washed. I'm doing that to get him in the habit of being part of a 'team' effort, and to be able to take care of himself.



happyman64 said:


> Oh and in case you are wondering why I posted above here is the reason.
> 
> Even when they are no longer your wives they will be the mother of your children.
> 
> And when your child does something their mother does not expect or they do something that takes them by surprise and it pleases them the first question out of their mind is this:
> 
> "Honey how on earth did you know how to do this? This was such a nice surprise!"
> 
> and while their Mother is all happy and glowing over their child your kid will say this:
> 
> "Daddy taught me how Mommy!" and your kid will be all happy that he/she pleased their Mother.
> 
> But I will gurantee you that their Mother is not thinking about their child right now but their exspouse. The exspouse that they gave up.
> 
> So be examples for your children. Teach them. Nurture them. Show them respect and demand respect in return.
> 
> *So that they turn out to be more like you is the motto of the story.....*


So, Happy, what you're saying (genders reversed, of course), is that my Ex just can't admit that, in fact, he misses me (not-shrinking his clothes)?  Sorry, just feeling silly today.


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> Oh, you guys with your "men's thing" and "women's thing" comments!
> 
> Since we wear so much cotton, I always wash clothing on cold. Except for reds, I don't bother to separate colors. It hasn't been a problem. I'd have been happy for the help, believe me. However, no matter how many times Ex would shrink our clothes, he often could not resist turning up the temp on the washer and/or dryer. He has real passive-aggressive issues; it's not because he's a man, er, male. So, I ended up doing the laundry to save money, haha.
> 
> Hmmm...maybe that's why I see him in new clothes so often now that he's on his own... :rofl:


Wow does that sound familiar..:rofl: My stbx never minded helping with the laundry and he had more time at home than I did since he went home every day for lunch for a nap and got out of work by 3. however it was always warm or hot everything mixed and nothing ever folded after it was dried... I would try so hard not to complain because I loved the help, but after having several outfits ruined I asked if he could just wash everything on cold or leave it for me... sometime he would remember but usually not. I became a closet launderer. After he went to bed at night I would stay up and do a load..:lol:


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> Wow does that sound familiar..:rofl: My stbx never minded helping with the laundry and he had more time at home than I did since he went home every day for lunch for a nap and got out of work by 3. however it was always warm or hot everything mixed and nothing ever folded after it was dried... I would try so hard not to complain because I loved the help, but after having several outfits ruined I asked if he could just wash everything on cold or leave it for me... sometime he would remember but usually not. I became a closet launderer. After he went to bed at night I would stay up and do a load..:lol:


So as an update, I'm doing laundry now and stuffed as much as I could into the washer and the he!! with separating lights and darks. Stuffing was also an issue here at chez Soca70. 

Productive day here with my goal of bedroom "refurbishment". My mother graciously came with me to help. Bought these faux-leather mini-recliners for the boys, new artwork, some new comforters, etc etc. I think it will look really good and only requires some minor "tweaking" instead of a huge project. Will be extricating some items from WAS' family for the clean sweep!

My mom picked up the boys after school, went out to dinner with us, and went to gymnastics with us also. Spectacular behavior! They were holding the door open for her, getting cups of water, etc. I have been amazed at the improvement in their behavior (especially with one) since STBX has been gone. Of course, my little black cloud is returning tomorrow so I'm expecting a nosedive. Really this is showing me that stability in one house is the best solution for them (or maybe something she does is throwing them off - it's been discussed before in the family therapy sessions - especially with our behavioral issue son - I handle him much better.) If STBX had any consideration for them other than getting her "fair share", she'd see this too. 

My parents stayed and helped me get them bathed, reading their books for homework, and into bed. My dad is coming over to help me tomorrow with disassembling my old master bed and moving it into the basement.

Lawyer let me know they are sending the agreement over tomorrow morning. Which means STBX will be seeing the details while coming back from CA so who knows what the entrance will be? She let me know she has come down with a nasty cold. I think I will text and suggest staying over at the rental tomorrow night so as not to get the boys sick and I will move the Explorer over there as well. Of course, she will turn this down as getting her "fair share" of the boys is the main concern and getting them sick is just the price they will have to pay for that. Bleh!


----------



## angelpixie

Glad to hear your night went so well, Soca. :smthumbup:

Maybe a dispenser of hand sanitizer with mask and gloves waiting at the front door when she comes to visit?


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Glad to hear your night went so well, Soca. :smthumbup:
> 
> Maybe a dispenser of hand sanitizer with mask and gloves waiting at the front door when she comes to visit?


More like a clove of garlic, a crucifix, and a wooden stake.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> More like a clove of garlic, a crucifix, and a wooden stake.


Don't forget the silver bullets


----------



## Bullwinkle

Great post, Soca. 

I was most struck by your plan to dissemble and store away the bed from your master bedroom. 

Very telling, very sad. 

You continue facing all this with a lot of guts, amigo.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Great post, Soca.
> 
> I was most struck by your plan to dissemble and store away the bed from your master bedroom.
> 
> Very telling, very sad.
> 
> You continue facing all this with a lot of guts, amigo.


Thanks, BW! That bed being disassembled is my old master bed in the guestroom. I'm keeping the king-sized one in the current master.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Ah! Horse of a different color.


----------



## soca70

The completed bedroom project...


----------



## soca70

Bedroom 1


----------



## soca70

Bedroom 2


----------



## soca70

So anxiously awaiting STBX's return to casa soca. Agreement sent today to opposing counsel. I'm sure there will be an update in the morning


----------



## HappyKaty

Eeeeekk! You're such an awesome dad, Soca! I looove their rooms!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> So anxiously awaiting STBX's return to casa soca. Agreement sent today to opposing counsel. I'm sure there will be an update in the morning


Your little mini-holiday almost over


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Your little mini-holiday almost over


Yes as of tonight. STBX should be arriving within the next half hour or so.

I didn't text anything about staying away because of illness or any heads up on the bedrooms. I haven't texted at all since Friday just to let her know we were out of town in case of emergency. I thought STBX has shown no consideration for me through this and has pretty much forfeited any say at this house with the boys. I've been schlepping to gymnastics, signing up for spring soccer, signing up for T-ball, getting them here and there, with no assistance due to the "work schedule" or whatever. The boys needed separate rooms here for me to manage them, and I did it. They were very excited and bedtime was a breeze.

I did a closet sweep and discarded a bunch of old pillows, sheets, etc. And took everything out from the ILs that they had given to the boys. These articles now reside in a Hefty bag in the living room.

I was pretty blah all day because this "mini-vacation" is ending. But pleased with the turn out on my project.


----------



## Conrad

It looks great.

I think it's a forward proactive step on your journey.


----------



## happyman64

I am moving in!

I have 3 girls and my wife.

I could use some time hanging with the boys!!!

Nice job Soca....


----------



## angelpixie

Great job on the rooms, Soca!! I bet the boys love them, too. You must get your RDA of awesome sauce, because you just keep handling everything like a champ. :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

The rooms look awesome Soca. Hope the night went ok.


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> I am moving in!
> 
> I have 3 girls and my wife.
> 
> I could use some time hanging with the boys!!!
> 
> Nice job Soca....


Great rooms Soca.


----------



## Bullwinkle

How did STBX h"homecoming" go?

I'm guessing awkward.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> How did STBX h"homecoming" go?
> 
> I'm guessing awkward.


STBX arrived home at 11:30 and unfortunately I was already "asleep". This morning I did see the sectional in the playroom had been used. So this morning, STBX had gifts for the boys including Gummi bears which one proceeded to eat non-stop and didn't eat breakfast. I said all of about 5 words. Some behavior relapses. And pretty much awkward and uncomfortable. I got the boys off to school. STBX asked if we were still only communicating via email and I said no that we need to talk today. One, I need to find out about the agreement and two, I've got to figure out a way to hasten the total exit here as I can see the boys do better with just me here. Of course, they were thrilled to see STBX.

Update later after this conversation...


----------



## Bullwinkle

C'mon, SoCa, a bag of Gummi Bears instead of a real breakfast, what's wrong with that? I can just imgaine the awkwardness, the unspoken words, the anger, the pain.

Good luck with the later conversation.


----------



## karole

Love the bedrooms! The cowboy one is my favorite. Is that a Breyer horse I see on the nightstand? My daughter collected Breyers when she was little.

Just also want to say good luck to you. I admire the way you look out for your boys.


----------



## angelpixie

karole said:


> Love the bedrooms! The cowboy one is my favorite. Is that a Breyer horse I see on the nightstand? * My daughter collected Breyers when she was little.*
> 
> Just also want to say good luck to you. I admire the way you look out for your boys.


I had a couple, too. In fact, two of them are some of the only things I have from my childhood. Somehow they survived the house fire we had when I was a teenager. Just found them again while I've been packing. Funny how some things are just timeless.


----------



## karole

angelpixie said:


> I had a couple, too. In fact, two of them are some of the only things I have from my childhood. Somehow they survived the house fire we had when I was a teenager. Just found them again while I've been packing. Funny how some things are just timeless.


You are correct Angel Pixie! My daughter probably has 75 Breyers that she has collected. She played with those horses more than anything when she was little. There are lots of adults that collect Breyers. I don't know if they still do, but there used to be horse shows for Breyers!!


----------



## soca70

karole said:


> Love the bedrooms! The cowboy one is my favorite. Is that a Breyer horse I see on the nightstand? My daughter collected Breyers when she was little.
> 
> Just also want to say good luck to you. I admire the way you look out for your boys.


Thanks, Karole! I picked that painted horse up on a visit to my corprate office in South Dakota. After your comment, I looked but it doesn't seem to be a Breyer horse. But OI have seen these in different colors, etc.


----------



## soca70

So my sweet doberman (see BW's thread) and I had a long discussion this afternoon. Basically, STBX is agreeing to the agreement with some slight tweaks which I'm OK with and if we eliminate the FIL supervised visitation (which she acknolwledges and I made the point there). So this should be done by next week as all major terms agreed to.

All very amiable. Of course, we had a general relationship/rehash discussion. Basically, we just see this whole situation so differently. She says I just don't understand her decision and have been "hearing things I wanted to hear" out of context the last several months. And she doesn't get my position about the resentment about the no MC option or trying to make it work for the boys. So we agreed to disagree.

I also revisited the online stuff and let her know I had discussed with my parents (true), some friends at church (true), some parents who are friends of ours at school (not true but a bluff) and whether they found this appropriate enough. STBX was horrified!!! And copped to it all again but acknowledged it with some further details as just messing around one night out of boredom and stated that down the line we will probably use this for internet dating. I agreed but I reminded her to be aware of in what context, etc. She did acknowledge some bad judgment on that and said she has not gone out with anyone since this, had sex, ect as all those were issues she's working on in IC. I do believe this and did let her know I was bluffing on the school parents but indicated I better not see any of this stuff again. Not for my business but for the kids. STBX said "Look I'm living in a duplex next to the boys' high school babysitter. Do you think I'm that unaware?" Well, let's see - at least the point made there too.

Then we discussed the need to both work together and she wants to try to get to being good friends again as she thinks that will be ebst for the boys and move past the anger and resentment both sides. Which I said easier for you to say but agreed to be amicable for now and not to repeat this morning's awkwardness (also comment on how she didn't sleep well as the bed was "rudely" removed - which made me laugh ).

And then made the plans for the rest of the day and tonight with the boys, etc. STBX picked them up right after school and took them over to play at the rental and then out to eat. I went to the gym and then will sign them up for t-ball.

So help me God, I would have reconciled on the spot. Wisely, I kept me mouth shut.


----------



## happyman64

Good conversation and I am glad you kept your mouth shut about R.

It takes two Soca and your wife is not on Team Soca anymore. 

And Soca we know you love her. But your wife is not feeling it for you.

Hell, she does not even feel it for herself.

Keep it amicable.


----------



## Conrad

Wish you hadn't told her you were bluffing.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> So my sweet doberman (see BW's thread) and I had a long discussion this afternoon. Basically, STBX is agreeing to the agreement with some slight tweaks which I'm OK with and if we eliminate the FIL supervised visitation (which she acknolwledges and I made the point there). So this should be done by next week as all major terms agreed to.
> 
> All very amiable. Of course, we had a general relationship/rehash discussion. Basically, we just see this whole situation so differently. She says I just don't understand her decision and have been "hearing things I wanted to hear" out of context the last several months. And she doesn't get my position about the resentment about the no MC option or trying to make it work for the boys. So we agreed to disagree.
> 
> I also revisited the online stuff and let her know I had discussed with my parents (true), some friends at church (true), some parents who are friends of ours at school (not true but a bluff) and whether they found this appropriate enough. STBX was horrified!!! And copped to it all again but acknowledged it with some further details as just messing around one night out of boredom and stated that down the line we will probably use this for internet dating. I agreed but I reminded her to be aware of in what context, etc. She did acknowledge some bad judgment on that and said she has not gone out with anyone since this, had sex, ect as all those were issues she's working on in IC. I do believe this and did let her know I was bluffing on the school parents but indicated I better not see any of this stuff again. Not for my business but for the kids. STBX said "Look I'm living in a duplex next to the boys' high school babysitter. Do you think I'm that unaware?" Well, let's see - at least the point made there too.
> 
> Then we discussed the need to both work together and she wants to try to get to being good friends again as she thinks that will be ebst for the boys and move past the anger and resentment both sides. Which I said easier for you to say but agreed to be amicable for now and not to repeat this morning's awkwardness (also comment on how she didn't sleep well as the bed was "rudely" removed - which made me laugh ).
> 
> And then made the plans for the rest of the day and tonight with the boys, etc. STBX picked them up right after school and took them over to play at the rental and then out to eat. I went to the gym and then will sign them up for t-ball.
> 
> So help me God, I would have reconciled on the spot. Wisely, I kept me mouth shut.


See how nice and sweet Dobie’s can be (Rott's too)... However I do NOT understand the comment: "And she doesn't get my position about the resentment about the no MC option or trying to make it work for the boys." What the heck? How can any human being not understand someone wanting to try and see if the marriage is viable especially if there are children involved? Im glad you kept your mouth shut but it scares me that you "would" have done it on the spot.....because that would have just brought you more heartbreak and to you children also...


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Conrad said:


> Wish you hadn't told her you were bluffing.


Agreed. Shows her that you are still vulnerable to her manipulation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Dedicated2Her said:


> Agreed. Shows her that you are still vulnerable to her manipulation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is why I am glad she slept on the couch.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Good conversation and I am glad you kept your mouth shut about R.
> 
> It takes two Soca and your wife is not on Team Soca anymore.
> 
> And Soca we know you love her. But your wife is not feeling it for you.
> 
> Hell, she does not even feel it for herself.
> 
> Keep it amicable.


Yes HM I know. I get sucked into this when we talk well with each other and make decisions, plans together. It just makes me miss how well we did so many things together as a team. And how I keep thinking what the issues we had were not insurmountable. 

So it will be amicable. Court avoided.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yes HM I know. I get sucked into this when we talk well with each other and make decisions, plans together. It just makes me miss how well we did so many things together as a team. And how I keep thinking what the issues we had were not insurmountable.
> 
> So it will be amicable. Court avoided.


The thing that's insurmountable is her deception.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Yes HM I know. I get sucked into this when we talk well with each other and make decisions, plans together. It just makes me miss how well we did so many things together as a team. And how I keep thinking what the issues we had were not insurmountable.
> 
> So it will be amicable. Court avoided.


Good for you. Patience Soca.

Your heart needs healing. It got hurt. Your wife is not using her heart at all.

It happens.

Have I ever told you I cannot stand most attorneys.....


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Wish you hadn't told her you were bluffing.


Well, STBX was going to start asking possible candidates to discuss her side of the story. Of course, she would have looked like a fool but I don't want the "halo effect" for me and the boys.

However, I think now she knows I will go there if I have to in the future.


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> See how nice and sweet Dobie’s can be (Rott's too)... However I do NOT understand the comment: "And she doesn't get my position about the resentment about the no MC option or trying to make it work for the boys." What the heck? How can any human being not understand someone wanting to try and see if the marriage is viable especially if there are children involved? Im glad you kept your mouth shut but it scares me that you "would" have done it on the spot.....because that would have just brought you more heartbreak and to you children also...


Cute!

Yes, I don't get it either. STBX always walks away from these conversations with "It's so frustrating that you can't see my point." I think she wants me to acknowledge it and agree to her decision to let her off the hook.

It's easy for me to say R "on the spot" because it's just so out of the question. If it really came to it, there'd be a lot of soul-searching and work required first.


----------



## doureallycare2

Conrad said:


> The thing that's insurmountable is her deception.


Conrad:
I know you kind of limit your treads but:
Trying to Figure This Out-At a Loss; is asking for some help in disconnecting and I cant give it, obveously. Can you look it up?


----------



## Conrad

doureallycare2 said:


> Conrad:
> I know you kind of limit your treads but:
> Trying to Figure This Out-At a Loss; is asking for some help in disconnecting and I cant give it, obveously. Can you look it up?


Be right there.


----------



## soca70

Find your own thread, you two!


----------



## doureallycare2

:rofl:


soca70 said:


> Find your own thread, you two!


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Find your own thread, you two!


There are no boundaries on TAM; everything overlaps.


----------



## soca70

An air mattress has appeared in the playroom this evening. Say what you will about STBX, but you can't keep that one down. God, give me strength...


----------



## angelpixie

Where did she come up with that?! Forgive me, Soca, but 'Have mattress - will travel' popped into my mind right then.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Where did she come up with that?! Forgive me, Soca, but 'Have mattress - will travel' popped into my mind right then.


AP - I am laughing very hard right now:rofl:

What's the saying? If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, Mohammed must come to the mountain?

We bought one several years ago for camping. I'm assuming it's the same one and she brought it over from the rental as I have eliminated the previous sleeping arrangements with the bedroom re-design. So she had a choice - sleep with me or on the air mattress. And we see which one she picked!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> AP - I am laughing very hard right now:rofl:
> 
> What's the saying? If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, Mohammed must come to the mountain?
> 
> We bought one several years ago for camping. I'm assuming it's the same one and she brought it over from the rental as I have eliminated the previous sleeping arrangements with the bedroom re-design. So she had a choice - sleep with me or on the air mattress. And we see which one she picked!


At least she had to blow something (up).


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> At least she had to blow something (up).


Yeah - well apparently that's been awhile...


----------



## angelpixie

It's just as well that she picked the mattress, Soca -- you don't need the temptation. :nono:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, Soca, gotta give her credit for the ingenuity. 

Conrad, best line of the night about blowing up said mattress.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> An air mattress has appeared in the playroom this evening. Say what you will about STBX, but you can't keep that one down. God, give me strength...


, that is to funny.


----------



## karole

Soca, check out this website: Breyer Horses - Community and Store
If your little boys like horses, Breyers would be something they could start collecting. You can even buy a barn to keep them in. They also have grooming tack, saddles, feed, etc., just like for real horses. 

Not trying to threadjack, but thought this might be something your boys would enjoy, especially if they start riding lessons.

P.S. - I love the Painted Ponies too!


----------



## soca70

karole said:


> Soca, check out this website: Breyer Horses - Community and Store
> If your little boys like horses, Breyers would be something they could start collecting. You can even buy a barn to keep them in. They also have grooming tack, saddles, feed, etc., just like for real horses.
> 
> Not trying to threadjack, but thought this might be something your boys would enjoy, especially if they start riding lessons.
> 
> P.S. - I love the Painted Ponies too!


Karloe- thanks for the suggestion and informtion!


----------



## staystrong

How long will she be there? I'm confused about what's going on. I thought I knew.


----------



## soca70

staystrong said:


> How long will she be there? I'm confused about what's going on. I thought I knew.


STBX is staying until our custody agreement is finalized. I would not let the boys leave the house until then as any informal schedule could and would probably be established by the court. 

The issue has been I wanted certain provisions in the agreement that would protect me in case of relocation, school/residential placement, certain final decision-making authority, and a longer schedule "at home" during the school year.

Yesterday, STBX and I discussed the last agreement my lawyer sent and she agreed to the trems with some minor tweaks I was OK with. Her counsel is writing up the changes to submit to mine. This should be signed and in effect by end of next week.

STBX had asked the boys last night if it was OK for her to start spending nights over at the rental now and (of course) they said no.

So it looks like I've got about a week and half left here with STBX in residence.

This has been the main "bone of contention" between us and the asset division agreement should be done very quickly afterward as that has been on hold pending the resolution of custody. And then I will probably be moving forward with the D formality.


----------



## soca70

So funny (?) conversation last night where STBX says to me "Let your mother know I'm not bipolar." And then lets me know how my mom had sent a text to me on the iPhone saying "I think STBX is bipolar. Look at this link." apparently right as STBX was passing by my phone.

One of my best friends/roommates/fraternity brothers was diagnosed bipolar manic depressive right at the end of college and hospitalized so I know what that looks like. STBX may sound crazy but I know she's not bipolar! 

Which led into a lttle discussion of me saying how my parents are just trying to make sense of her actions and then the oft-used response of "you guys just don't understand". And I said no, the do not, not really. 

So this morning, a follow up with my doctor to see how the new anti-anxiety medication (Sertraline -sp?) is doing. Which has been great. I was overdosing on the Leaxpro. And then a referral to the dermatologist to see about some sun damage on my face. (Getting ready for the big "reveal" here shortly so tuning things up ).

I feel like my time has been filled with therapists, doctors, dentist, lawyers appointments as a result of all this.

Luckily (or not), work has been so excruciangly slow pending the acquisition so I have the time to take care of all this. My concern is that more than half of my income is commission-based and it's going to get VERY tight here the next few months. These are the days I foresaw last year which had me worrying/obsessing about the financial plan which apparently was a big negative for STBX. Well she's going to have to keep stepping up to the plate regarding the mortgage here whether she likes it or not 

So lunch with my parents to cooridnate some plans tomorrow with my niece who has Friday off and the boys, updating my lawyers, and then picking the boys up in about a half hour from school.

My mom was almost crying today since the custody agreement is almost done. STBX will be under the microscope for the rest of her life with the ex-MIL.


----------



## Bullwinkle

It's all coming together slowly, SoCa.....

You're doing great. 

Your parenrts sound terrific - you're lucky to have them.


----------



## staystrong

Divorce. It's an epidemic. 

You're handling it well, Soca. Smart and with the best interests of the kids at heart.


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for the encouragement. As I told my IC several weeks ago, "If this is doing well, I'd hate to see doing badly." 

Spent the evening building Lego sets with the boys and STBX, STBX made dinner (my mother - "I wouldn't touch a thing she made!"), boys decorated bunny cookies for the teachers tomorrow that STBX had picked up at the grocery store, I cleaned up, did my usual nightly load of laundry, etc.

STBX comes into my office and asks about whether we have received the closing statement from the refi for the tax returns. I said I'll check and then said we will need to work together on the taxes. Last year was the first year we used TurboTax instead of my CPA and STBX had done the actual return with the inputs, etc. So she says half-jokingly "I'm sleeping on an air mattress and you want me to help you with the taxes?" which I replied half-jokingly back "I want to do them together so we don't miss anything". God knows we both need every dollar this year. So we agreed to split the cost of the TurboTax and will work together on this next little project.

Earlier, after dinner STBX asks about the Easter plans. I said well we're going to church and then a luncheon afterwards. And she says "Oh the 4 of us?" and I say "No. Me, the boys, my parents, my sister, her husband, my niece, his son, and his mother. But you can do "Easter Bunny" Sunday morning with the boys as I'm assuming you'll that Saturday night." She replies "well I guess I will go to church also alone but do something fun with the boys Saturday" which I said OK to. This is where I see STBX just does not get it. She looked totally surprised that as to why she wouldn't be invited with us. I just don't think it has registered yet as to this is the way it's going to be moving forward. And I am confident that losing this aspect of life will be harder than anything else.


----------



## happyman64

You should ask your Mom to send you another text tomorrow when your wife is around.

"Ok. If you say she is not bipolar then fine. She is just crazy"

But on a serious note you handled Easter the right way.

Your wife is in for a rude awakening when it comes to the "family".

But I give you both credit for keeping it amicable.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Your wife is in for a rude awakening when it comes to the "family".


Yes this is what I think I will miss the most as well. Being all together for holidays, trips, events, etc. I just want to reiterate here how close we all are/were. My mom today said, "If we invited STBX over here for Easter, I'd bet she'd come." And the sad (?) part of me wants to. I want the "old days" back. But I'd probably have physical bruises from the 2X4's that would come my way!


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Yes this is what I think I will miss the most as well. Being all together for holidays, trips, events, etc. I just want to reiterate here how close we all are/were. My mom today said, "If we invited STBX over here for Easter, I'd bet she'd come." And the sad (?) part of me wants to. I want the "old days" back. But I'd probably have physical bruises from the 2X4's that would come my way!


Here is my two cents. If you want her there and can not feel "hurt" then have her there.

If you two can remain amicable, even when you both have signiicant others then you could keep tht family feeling. But even that takes two.

I would not throw a 2x4 at you over Easter,spending with your wife and kids.it will be your last as a married couple.

But it is your head and your heart.

I pity your wife Soca. She has everything yet is not happy.

And she cannot tell you why. That is really sad.


----------



## HappyKaty

Easter is a perfect day to invite her, IMO. Let her see what she will miss. YOU do not invite her, though.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca, I agree with HK, get someone else to invite her but, indeed, let her have a brief taste of the medicine she will be taking for the rest of her life.


----------



## angelpixie

But only if it doesn't cause you too much hurt -- you already know what it is you will miss. If having her there will bring up too much hurt for you, then she doesn't need to come. It may also send the boys the message that Mommy will still be coming to all the family events like she always has. It might be harder for them to keep extending things.


----------



## soca70

Last night, I peeked into the playroom and was watching STBX sleeping on the air mattress on the floor. I have conflicted emotions about all of this. STBX really feels that she she is doing the right thing for herself. Who am I to stand in someone else's path to happiness? I'm not a hard-hearted person and I have been uncomforable having to play hardball regarding custody. Basically, I had to threaten full custody to get what I needed and thought best for the boys to move on. I know that hurt STBX a lot. My "white knight" instinct was wanting to kick in and lay down and hold her and comfort her and make everything OK. But that's not what she wants anymore from me.

I also recognize my own part in this and can admit to being not the most caring/sympathetic/loving husband the last 2 years. 

However, on the flip side, STBX has not been that way for me either and still does not fully realize or admit to that (or even care at this point). And just to destroy our family without making a true concerted effort on addressing the problems we had makes me much less sympathetic to her own needs. I have always had a lot of tolerance for people's behavior as long as they were trying and just giving up or no effort really rubs me the wrong way. Especially in this case with our kids.

So what to do Easter? I cannot have STBX over to my parent's house as there is too much possibility of things going really south and I do not want to put my sister's husband's family in that uncomfortable position. It's not fair to my sister.

So maybe STBX can sit with us for church services. I'll run it by my parents for their thoughts first. Again, I have to realize that STBX's actions have affected not only me but many other people as well. The short-sightedness of this is what I find so frustrating.


----------



## Iver

Soca70, 

Perhaps the best recourse for Easter would be to avoid family entanglements…your STBXW can get used to the single life (by herself) while you and your children spend time with your family…


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

Your impulse is still to fix.

Are they with you that day?

If they are, do what you want.

The hell with her.


----------



## Openminded

She wanted out. Not you. Let her begin to face the consequences.

So she can go to church and sit by herself. Not with you or your family or her children.

She is no longer part of the Soca group and she needs to get used to that.

Don't help her adjust to her new life. That's on her.


----------



## angelpixie

And you don't need to give her one last family get-together to show her what she's missing. That's what memories are for. 

Just enjoy the holiday with your boys and your family. Bringing her in puts everyone under undue stress. 

Too bad her reality sucks, but it's the one she chose.


----------



## Ignis

Don't do this, really. Just go by yourself and your kids and start living your own life. It is good to have such time for reflecting and recollecting your feelings and thoughts.


----------



## soca70

Thanks, everyone, for the input. I agree with these suggestions and that was my first instinct. I think it was a moment of weakness where for some reason I felt bad for STBX. But then I had to remember this was the path that was not chosen by me.

So late this afternoon, the new family room carpet was being installed and STBX came in with the boys amidst a first floor full of displaced furniture. I could tell that having a major purchase without her input bothered her. Of course, I played it up for the boys like how much better this carpet was, thicker, etc. 

We had Family Movie Night as usual with our housekeeper who had arrived late. STBX had a project due and was working in the office so not much "family togetherness" tonight. 

STBX made several references to "well in my house..." which was starting to get on my nerves. I have busted my tail for 10 years to achieve a certain level of lifestyle for our family and she walks out on that for some dumpy 90-year old duplex that my kids will be spoending a large portion of their time in. Well my sympathetic thoughts evaporated pretty quickly.

Yes she will be sitting alone on church for Easter and can go to McDonald's for lunch if she can't scare up some invite to someone else's family that day.


----------



## allowingthecakeeating

Soca, your right, I also feel like I am reading my life story listening to you. 

Good choice... let her enjoy the taste of her bitter medicine.


----------



## soca70

So another typical TAM day (fraught with the effects of a WS)...

STBX took one of the boys to the gym and then to lunch. I took the other to Toys R Us to spend some allowance on "Trash Packs", then to astore to pick up something for the other one's bedroom, then to Cabela's to look at the stuffed animal/waterfall displays (no Obama supporters there! ), and then lunch at an Irish pub.

Got home and finished assembling a Lego helicopter and checked out plans online to possibly take them to the Shriner circus tomorrow.

Coordinated lunch next week with one of the neighbors and play dates for spring break and confirmed registration for the boys for chess club at school.

STBX stopped by and picked up both boys for yogurt and pizza and to play at her place (which I did not know about eating dinner there).

Received a call from my parents who went ballistic to learn that the boys were over at STBX's place. I shared with them this past week about the online crap and that has sent them over the edge. Listened to a 20 minute harangue about how I'm a push-over for being civil with STBX in the house, letting her do things with the boys, how I'm "giving my kids away" by not taking advantage of every possible legal loophole to an "unstable idiot who doesn't deserve to be a parent", etc, etc. Any thoughts of STBX sitting with the rest of the family quickly erased with "If she tries to sit with us at church, we're up and moving whether it causes a scene or not!" 

Not surprised here as this is my parents' style and I saw this with my sister's divorce a few years ago. As did STBX. I'm not sure where the thinking was that it would play out differently in this case.

Ended the conversation with "If you die, we're going for full custody before that POS takes the boys back to California!"

So once again, I sit here evaluating whether I have allowed cake-eating or not, has STBX "won" and gotten away with it. I don't know. I do know it takes an incredible amount of emotional energy to keep up the anger and animosity and I'm tired. I'm not engaging much in any conversation other than about the boys and pretty much retreat to my office after they go to bed. STBX is currently working on a project with the LA office camped out on our dinette table.

I have to keep managing my parents through this. Once my lawyers receive the revisions and redaft this, I will schedule another appointment for me and my parents to discuss with them and review the proos and cons again. I have to get them on board or my life will be miserable for making the "wrong choice" here. Additionally, I may be needing them for some short-term financial assistance later this year. I know this is coming from an extreme anger and sense of betrayal and they are pretty much mad as he!!.


----------



## ReGroup

The emotional energy being spent on this is what's truly disappointing. 

Seconding guessing yourself, thinking about the other party, watching this person transform into someone else, wondering what this is doing to the kids, etc... really disappointing. 

Here you are worried about everyone, while the other person is only worried about themselves. Its truly sad.


----------



## soca70

ReGroup said:


> The emotional energy being spent on this is what's truly disappointing.
> 
> Seconding guessing yourself, thinking about the other party, watching this person transform into someone else, wondering what this is doing to the kids, etc... really disappointing.
> 
> Here you are worried about everyone, while the other person is only worried about themselves. Its truly sad.


Regroup - it's not just disappointing, it's infuriating. STBX has not acknowledged any of this. Or maybe cannot even see it. I feel like I'm trying to hold it all together for everyone else's best interests and it's pretty damn exhausting.


----------



## GutPunch

soca70 said:


> Regroup - it's not just disappointing, it's infuriating. STBX has not acknowledged any of this. Or maybe cannot even see it. I feel like I'm trying to hold it all together for everyone else's best interests and it's pretty damn exhausting.


Man you are a fixer. 

Hang in there! If you cannot control it, let it go.

Not your problem.


----------



## angelpixie

True -- you can't take all of this on your shoulders, Soca. Your parents mean well, and I'm sure a good deal of it is rage because of how this is all hurting you and your DSs, but they need to know that you are in control of this. You will do what you deem to be in the best interests of you and the boys first, and you are not giving her too much. Then be sure you don't give her too much. 

I sympathize. When you are forced into an adversarial situation like this, it IS exhausting. It goes against your nature. Yet it needs to be done. And the more you do it, and the more you detach from her, the easier it is. Trust me.

I've said this to others on TAM, too, and it's something I wish I'd figured out earlier on -- we need to take a page from the WS playbook, and detach like they have. That's why it's so easy for them to say 'No' when we ask something of them, and to push their agenda without thought of its effect on us, and even on our kids. It doesn't totally take away the stress of dealing with the WS, but it does make it less.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> So another typical TAM day (fraught with the effects of a WS)...
> 
> Any thoughts of STBX sitting with the rest of the family quickly erased with "If she tries to sit with us at church, we're up and moving whether it causes a scene or not!"
> 
> Ended the conversation with "If you die, we're going for full custody before that POS takes the boys back to California!"
> 
> So once again, I sit here evaluating whether I have allowed cake-eating or not, has STBX "won" and gotten away with it. I don't know. I do know it takes an incredible amount of emotional energy to keep up the anger and animosity and I'm tired. I'm not engaging much in any conversation other than about the boys and pretty much retreat to my office after they go to bed. STBX is currently working on a project with the LA office camped out on our dinette table.
> 
> I have to keep managing my parents through this. Once my lawyers receive the revisions and redaft this, I will schedule another appointment for me and my parents to discuss with them and review the proos and cons again. I have to get them on board or my life will be miserable for making the "wrong choice" here. Additionally, I may be needing them for some short-term financial assistance later this year. I know this is coming from an extreme anger and sense of betrayal and they are pretty much mad as he!!.



I can certainly understand that the love your parents have for you make them very passionate regarding your WS. My daughter-law just had a case where the xw died and they were suing her client (the xh) not for custody but for manditory visitation. It did not go well.... one of the reasons she hates family law. she tried and tried to get them into a mediation but the grandparents refused to backdown and ended up losing in court. My DIL was very upset even though her client won because who didnt win, the children once again. the xh was willing to work with the grandparents and say he wouldnt move them out of state, they could have one weekend a month and they could call and comeover or ask at any other times to see the kids or even take them. But GP's wanted everyother weekend and all of summer vacations and everyother holiday. So they lost and xh dosnt have to let them see the children at all..... now they had this bitter battle how much do u think he wants his kids to be around them?
Also if your parents get up and move at church they are disrespecting the childrens mom in front of them. Tell them to be happy your not bringing her to dinner and to be considerate of the children and you.


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## staystrong

Do you guys have fights or heated exchanges right now, Soca?


----------



## happyman64

> I will schedule another appointment for me and my parents to discuss with them and review the proos and cons again. I have to get them on board or my life will be miserable for making the "wrong choice" here. Additionally, I may be needing them for some short-term financial assistance later this year. I know this is coming from an extreme anger and sense of betrayal and they are pretty much mad as he!!.


Soca

I truly think you ned to limit your paarents involvement in your Divorce. Their deep involvement will only lead to more fallout and hard feelings.

And as far as "wrong choice" I do not see where you have any choice. Your wife is not leaving you any choice at all. She is leaving you and is not willing to work on the marriage.

And while your parents are mad as hell well how could not be. But your focus should be on you and your boys.

Your Mom and Dad have each other. Who do you have now? Just your boys.

Your wife is an emotioal midget and will always be. I also think she is showing her attention towards the boys as a show of face for walking away from the marriage.

Over time you will truly see what she really wants or how much she wants those two boys in her life that she did not give birth to.

I do not say this lightly.

So control your parents. Focus their attentionon the boys. And focus your efforts on removing your wife from your lives because that is all she wants.

And stop doubting your past actions in the marriage. None of us are angels but I highly doubt your wife is leaving this marriage because of you.

The woman is damaged Soca and you cannot fix her!!

HM64


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for the input. I feel like I'm in the home stretch so it's starting to feel a little raw here.

Today I took the boys to the Shriner circus. Before I left, STBX askes "just the 3 of you" and I say yes. Boys were asking STBX if she could come and I said "no". As STBX said to me several weeks ago, we need to end this charade for them. And now the cat's out of the bag so no more of these group outings with me.

Circus was good and there was an indoor carnival also. Boys had a really good time.

Afterwards, I zipped up towards my parents' house as my niece was staying there. Stopped for one boy's haircut (which STBX could not manage to do yesterday with him) and then dinner at my parents with my niece who they love to see. I talked with my parents about last night's conversation and we're all back on the same page (more or less) on how I'm handling this. They are just beyond p*****d which I understand but they do see why I'm handling some things the way I am.

Which brings me to my next question. STBX texts me at 6:15 saying she hadn't heard from me and had stopped by the house but no one was there. Then 6:45 pm a call and another text saying she wrote a note for the boys for me to read to them and have them call on her cell as she will be staying over at the rental tonight and will plan on picking up the boys after school tomorrow. 

So the boys ask me if STBX will be at home as we're driving back and I say "no over at the rental" and they get upset and ask why and can they call and ask her? So I try calling at 8:00and get voicemail. And when we get home they want to call again and I do and voicemail again. So I send a text saying they are upset and want to talk.

As I'm getting them ready for bed, STBX calls and talks to the one who was most concerned and then hands the phone to me. And I can hear in the background either a restaurant or a bar and I say "You're not at home, are you?" and she replies "No I'm out." with no further details.

Ok yes we are separated but I have said previously while under this roof we're not living some single lifestyle. And this 2-3 nights out and then coming over here for the rest of the week is 1) confusing to the boys and 2) disrespectful to me I think.

So my question is this. I would like to pack up the remaining items from STBX in Hefty bags (including air mattress) and put them on the rental doorstep and say no more. Is this appropriate? Recall STBX is still on title.

Thanks!


----------



## Conrad

Do exactly that.

And, start standing up to your parents in the same way.

She was in a hurry to find you BECAUSE she had a date and wanted to cover her tracks so she could go out.

You are still paying her to leave you.

And, it's hurting you.

A huge #3.


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## soca70

Hmmm... so speak of the devil just as I'm writing this my black cloud comes in with snacks and Capri-sun and some groceries for tomorrow morning. And lets me know since she didn't hear from me, she had dinner with a friend from church (clearly not a date). I said I'm just not OK with dating, bar-hopping, etc while she's still here and she said fine, I know.

And then goes on about how she hopes I get o get past this so we can do things occassionally all 4 of us as both she and the boys wanted all of us to go the circus today and I have been making it clear to exclude her from trips to Florida, etc and how I was bent out of shape when she had the boys for two hours yesterday. And I just need to start doing the right thing "for the boys". And how would I feel if I start getting excluded from things. 

And then out the door again to the rental and will stop by in the morning before the boys go off to school to say hi.

My head is banging into this desk...


----------



## happyman64

Like you said its almost the end.

So why not end it.

Send her packing.

Maybe the boys can help you?

And I am not saying that to be spiteful.

Someday when they are men they will ask why they packed Mommy's things.

By then you will have the right answer for them, and they will have learned a very valuable lesson.

Be strong Soca........


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## soca70

Guys - read the last post and let me know please if I should still do this. Thanks!


----------



## happyman64

I cannot wait for you to have a GF. I really can't wait.

Where can I mail you the black hefty bags???


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## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Guys - read the last post and let me know please if I should still do this. Thanks!


Yes.

Her coming over and doing all that stuff was out of guilt because she knew she was doing exactly that which she agreed not to do.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Yes.
> 
> Her coming over and doing all that stuff was out of guilt because she knew she was doing exactly that which she agreed not to do.


OK - dinner with a friend does not qualify for me as "crossing the line" and she took the time to get that stuff for the boys and included coffee for me since she used the last today.

This custody agreement will be settled by 4/10 so this will resolve anyway by then and she's gone in less than 2 weeks.

My thoughts are if that was a date or hanging out at some bar, I'd do it but now I'm leaning toward just keeping the peace for a few days longer. I've got a pretty good asset division verbal agreement that I'd like to coincide with this and I don't want a "revenge act" to cost me $50K.


----------



## soca70

staystrong said:


> Do you guys have fights or heated exchanges right now, Soca?


SS- no. Not for several weeks and those were pretty isolated. I went through a period around the holidays where I couldn't even look at STBX.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> And, start standing up to your parents in the same way.
> 
> 
> .


I've got them back under control as of this evening. They are very vindictive if crossed and they feel very crossed right now.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I cannot wait for you to have a GF. I really can't wait.
> 
> Where can I mail you the black hefty bags???


Yes I'm starting to get that feeling too. I can't even imagine having a date with this turmoil going on still. 

Once this is over in a few weeks, I will share the story of my XGF who is still one of my closest friends. And then I will ask for opinions on that situation...

Funny you mention donating Hefty bags. I'm down to one.


----------



## Openminded

Tell her, nicely, that you feel it's too confusing for the boys for all four of you to be doing things together.


----------



## GutPunch

Soca! Pack her sh!t please!


----------



## GutPunch

soca70 said:


> Once this is over in a few weeks, I will share the story of my XGF who is still one of my closest friends.


Let me guess the XGF calls when she has a problem that needs fixin. 

Just Kidding. Hefty bags that's the ticket. End the charade.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> OK - dinner with a friend does not qualify for me as "crossing the line"...


You trust that she's telling you the truth? Mr. Katy called posOW "a friend" until the end.


----------



## catcalls

does that mean that there will be a custody agreement in force from 10/4 onwards? in that case, dont act in haste. she does not deserve any good behaviour from you or for that matter much consideration. you just need to detach from her and if it is done amicably with as little fuss as possible, the better. keep it civil, she will be gone soon.
i cant imagine how a she can even think that she can tick off the bits of marriage she is not interested and keep the ones she likes (like acting like a family of four). the fact that she keeps asking if she is included indicates to me that you are not fully detached and she is trying to manipulate your emotions to make you feel that she is suffering and guilt you into doing things the way she wants it. perhaps she knows what she wants but does not want to say it outright for fear of being labelled a ruthless woman.

you can start clearing her stuff using the ostensible excuse of spring cleaning and starting anew. once the custody agreement is formally enforceable, all gloves are off and you just move any of her remaining stuff immediately. also after that she does not need to come into your house anymore either. exchanges can be done at the door step.


----------



## doureallycare2

It almost sounds like your putting more stress on yourself and the boys by allowing her to stay. I’m not sure if I would pack everything all at once because of the boys but I would definitely tell her your limiting her time there and start packing things up. The sooner she has clear boundaries that her place in the family has changed the better. I would give her a date say April 15th when she will not be welcome there anymore and all her things will need to be out.


----------



## doureallycare2

.So I get an email today from stbxh (his B-day) no title or anything. I open it and its our two dogs (that I left at home yesterday, while I was gone for the day) in someone home other than mine. I’m assuming its ow house where last I knew stbx is staying. What do you think he’s trying to say to me? I debated about responding but I did... I replied- “looks like the dogs had a busy day yesterday as they also got to go on a very long walk. I received no response


----------



## HappyKaty

And, for the record, I'd pack her sh1t and leave it on the doorstep. She's cake-eating like a boss.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> You trust that she's telling you the truth? Mr. Katy called posOW "a friend" until the end.


Soca,

What has she ever done but lie to you?


----------



## soca70

catcalls said:


> does that mean that there will be a custody agreement in force from 10/4 onwards? in that case, dont act in haste. she does not deserve any good behaviour from you or for that matter much consideration. you just need to detach from her and if it is done amicably with as little fuss as possible, the better. keep it civil, she will be gone soon.
> i cant imagine how a she can even think that she can tick off the bits of marriage she is not interested and keep the ones she likes (like acting like a family of four). the fact that she keeps asking if she is included indicates to me that you are not fully detached and she is trying to manipulate your emotions to make you feel that she is suffering and guilt you into doing things the way she wants it. perhaps she knows what she wants but does not want to say it outright for fear of being labelled a ruthless woman.
> 
> you can start clearing her stuff using the ostensible excuse of spring cleaning and starting anew. once the custody agreement is formally enforceable, all gloves are off and you just move any of her remaining stuff immediately. also after that she does not need to come into your house anymore either. exchanges can be done at the door step.


This I think is the right course of action. I can tough this out for the next week or so. STBX will be out by 4/10 one way or the other. As I mentioned earlier, if I can keep this amicable, it will be a major $ savings for me in the long run. Yes, it's cake-eating but legally I couldn't enforce it either.

That last night dinner I really believe was friend. STBX had stopped by earlier and if we were there, she'd have stayed. Since she knew I was probably at my parents' for dinner, she made some plans for herself. And when she came over at 9:30 or so, if it was a date, that was a pretty low-effort one based on appearance. Plus I can pick up the phone and verify if I wanted to. And truthfully at this point, does it even matter? I have realized awhile ago, I'm not getting what I need out of this relationship and need to look forward (and elsewhere).

Regarding picking and choosing, I agree that I have been baffled by STBX's actions. I think she needs a primer called "How Divorced People Act" because I'm not sure she gets it.

It's pretty tough as we are so intertwined as our kids are so high-maintenance. This morning while getting ready for school, I had one that needed to poop (which for him is a 20-25 min hand-holding experience). So I called STBX at 7:15 and asked if she was still planning on coming over. She said yes and I said good because I need your help this morning. And she walked over and helped get the backpacks, other son, etc ready so we made it to school on time.

For the immediate future, we will need to work closely for the boys and I have to keep it amicable (as much as I'd rather not). After STBX moves out, it will be easier to set clear boundaries. 

As HM says, I think once I find another relationship, the detachment here will really be achieved. Believe it or not, I have made some serious progress on this .


----------



## happyman64

Stay on track Soca.

You are headed in the right direction.

There is light at the end of that no tunnel. And no it is not a freight train headed in your direction...

:lol:


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

I think you need to wake up.

She picks and chooses the "husbandly duties" she wants from you - and you do your best to please her.

That's a loser for you.

I believe she's an inveterate liar.

Far too many of these little bad smelling "dating site" incidents to believe she's on the up and up.

Where there's smoke, there's fire.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> I think you need to wake up.
> 
> She picks and chooses the "husbandly duties" she wants from you - and you do your best to please her.
> 
> That's a loser for you.
> 
> I believe she's an inveterate liar.
> 
> Far too many of these little bad smelling "dating site" incidents to believe she's on the up and up.
> 
> Where there's smoke, there's fire.


Conrad-

I think I have woken up. As was indicated 5 months ago on the board here, STBX only wants out. Which I did not want to believe and tried to counter-act. For the past several months, I have made her exit as inconvenient and difficult as I thought reasonable without having negative fall-out on the boys. I have done the 180, showing her what she's missing out on, working on my communication interactions, working with the IC, etc. And she still wants out. What I have woken up to is the fact that if STBX wants to hook up with half the Ohio State senior class, I cannot control that.

However, what I can control is getting out of this with as much as I can. I have negotiated (pianfully) controlling interest in the boys, 60/40 visitation, unconditional relocation, manadatory sobriety. And if STBX's actions become detrimnetal to the boys' well-being in my view, she knows full well I will go for full custody.

I have negotiated keeping the house and the existing equity and my 401 (k). 

I have accepted this is as good as I can get. And if I have to "play nice" at this point to get this, I will.

I can see your concern here as I have it to. Do I look like a push-over? Sometimes I think so. But we live in a small community and I don't want some screaming altercations going on either.

The last 6 months have been a tough balancing act of allowing "picking and choosing" vs the boys' best interests. I can assure you after her departure, there will be no "husbandly duties".

AP and my IC have both indicated that sometimes the LBS has to suck it up in the short-term for the best interests of children. And it looks like the WS "gets away with it". But my IC says the repercussions will hit STBX later on this and I need to remain the stable one for the boys.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> As I mentioned earlier, if I can keep this amicable, it will be a major $ savings for me in the long run. Yes, it's cake-eating but legally I couldn't enforce it either.


How does kissing her ass save you money? Is it because you assume she'll agree with all your requests as long as you're nice?

You're right in the legal aspect, but that's not what it's about. She knows you aren't going to even try to force her out. She knows she can waltz in and out of your marital home, at her leisure. Show her your sack isn't empty.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> How does kissing her ass save you money? Is it because you assume she'll agree with all your requests as long as you're nice?
> 
> You're right in the legal aspect, but that's not what it's about. She knows you aren't going to even try to force her out. She knows she can waltz in and out of your marital home, at her leisure. Show her your sack isn't empty.


Today, I will discuss the departure schedule. The only thing holding here here is that the custody agreement is not finalized yet and we both know it. That has to be done by 4/10's court date or it goes to the judge which is what we are wanting to avoid. We've both agreed to the terms and it will be written up this week. Once signed, we both know it's hasta la vista. And I will change the locks.

As for being nice, basically if I don't go for full custody, she'll agree to our initial verbal agreement on asset division. Legally she's entitled to half the equity in the house but has agreed to walk away with much less in exchange for one of the SUVs, forgiveness on the AmEX, etc. This will save me having to pay $50K and I would have to sell the house to access. I prefer to keep the house for the kids.

So yes a little a$$-kissing will work better on the assets rather than throwing the rest of her stuff into the street.


----------



## Conrad

It all depends on the message you wish to send.

And, on what's important to you.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> It all depends on the message you wish to send.
> 
> And, on what's important to you.


Not following this...


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Not following this...


Sounds like right now you're willing to eat some shix sandwiches over money.

I'm ok with that if you are.


----------



## GutPunch

I ate some shiX sandwiches over custody and money. However, not as many as Soca. :0)


----------



## soca70

GutPunch said:


> I ate some shiX sandwiches over custody and money. However, not as many as Soca. :0)


OK for $50K I can eat some more for a week or so. I can tell you that throwing stuff on the street won't impress the STBX - she'll just think it's some kind of desperate gesture.


----------



## GutPunch

soca70 said:


> OK for $50K I can eat some more for a week or so. I can tell you that throwing stuff on the street won't impress the STBX - she'll just think it's some kind of desperate gesture.


Soca...I went thru the same thing. I didn't want to rock the boat when my wife agreed to hand over full custody to me.


----------



## HappyKaty

GutPunch said:


> I ate some shiX sandwiches ...


I did, too. But then, I picked up my hand on put on my poker face. Best move I ever made. It wasn't until then that I realized how screwed up my wiring was.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> I did, too. But then, I picked up my hand on put on my poker face. Best move I ever made. It wasn't until then that I realized how screwed up my wiring was.


And then look what happened.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> And then look what happened.


Nobody respects a doormat.


----------



## soca70

OK - so points taken. I told STBX earler this afternoon we needed to discuss some things tonight. 

STBX brings the boys home from school, cooks dinner, I give baths, we put them to bed. And before one boy is asleep, STBX is out the door and over at the rental. The Hefties are coming back into play at this point.

So I send a text saying we needed to talk and come back over and she responds she's working on a project with the senior partner and will call me in a few minutes. 

She calls me and I say "Look I am not OK with you flitting in and out of here at your convenience. It's confusing to the boys and I'm not comfortable with it. You need to either stay here and ride this thing down with me or stay over there permanently." So she replies that she's implementing the schedule now that we had agreed upon for Mon and Tue nights at the rental and then rest of the week here until the agreement is signed since you won't let the boys leave. This is what we decided before my two week trip to LA. And says funny that you are requesting me now there full-time as you took the bed away. So I said we needed a firm schedule and boundaries moving forward for the next few weeks which she agreed with.

So I'm now kicking myself for making that agreement for Mon and Tue nights for the "soft" transition. I didn't forsee the issues on that. She will be back over on Wednesday.

Is it bad karma to want somebody to be hit by a truck?


----------



## Conrad

She is quite the samurai blameshifter.

And, she sure knows you.

P.S. I am glad to see you're finally getting sick of it. This has been her cake-eating m.o. the whole time.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> She is quite the samurai blameshifter.
> 
> And, she sure knows you.
> 
> P.S. I am glad to see you're finally getting sick of it. This has been her cake-eating m.o. the whole time.


You know I was just thinking what killed our marriage was STBX's job. Just all the hours and the pressure to bill so much every day and being such a slave to the corporate "masters" in LA. And the 3 hour time difference that has her working all day and night. With the household stuff and personal time falling through the cracks as a result. I'd get home from a business trip and the boys and everything else was pretty much shoved on me to take care of while she went off to catch up on work somewhere or pushed us out of the house. 

And I tried to "fix" this with solutions which she just would not listen to or was unable to implement (like getting licensed here in Ohio). And began getting resentful of my pushing for a change which began to get more adamant each year.

Well she's got the time now she needs...


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> You know I was just thinking what killed our marriage was STBX's job. Just all the hours and the pressure to bill so much every day and being such a slave to the corporate "masters" in LA. And the 3 hour time difference that has her working all day and night. With the household stuff and personal time falling through the cracks as a result. I'd get home from a business trip and the boys and everything else was pretty much shoved on me to take care of while she went off to catch up on work somewhere or pushed us out of the house.
> 
> And I tried to "fix" this with solutions which she just would not listen to or was unable to implement (like getting licensed here in Ohio). And began getting resentful of my pushing for a change which began to get more adamant each year.
> 
> Well she's got the time now she needs...


When we go to 50,000 feet and observe, we find our partners are alarmingly consistent.

She's been letting you know where you rate for a long time.

(That's why I kind of like the Hefty Bag idea)


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCA, no, it's not bad Karma to hope she gets hit by a truck. 

Samurai blameshifter - good one, C.


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCA, no, it's not bad Karma to hope she gets hit by a truck.
> 
> Samurai blameshifter - good one, C.


It is not bad karma as long as Soca is not caught driving the truck. 

Not much longer Soca.

Then she can work all she wants.

And you can find a woman who has the same values as you.


----------



## angelpixie

Hey, Soca -- This popped up on my FB today, and I thought of you and Daddio and all the other single Dads on here and how much you do for your kids. Glad you're not this poor clueless guy.

Divorced Father Buys String Cheese To Make Coming To His Place Fun | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


----------



## soca70

So today I got the boys off to school and went up to my parents' house as my mother wanted to help with Easter shopping for the boys' clothes/baskets/etc. Took a quick work conference call and then went out and bought new outfits for church and Easter basket "goodies" from the list they had given STBX (texted STBX what I had bought and indicated what she would need to buy - one of the items a Wii-U for $350  - while I'm picking up $2 Peeps). After that, went to a one-off store and bought new dishes, glassware, storage baskets for the boys, etc. Went to the shoe store and bought them new cleets for soccer and T-ball and myself a new pair of work-out shoes with Day-Glo yellow.

We also made family plans for the weekend. Since the boys are off Fri, my mom and I will go with the boys down to Dayton to my sister's and pick up my niece and we will all go out to dinner Fri night and my niece will spend the night with me (STBX will love that as that will force her out of the house). Saturday, Easter egg making/festivities at my parents with my niece, and Sunday, church and lunch with my sister's family. I let STBX know she and I can do "Easter bunny" with the boys Sunday morning. She's not happy that she's being excluded again but these are the things my family does and if you don't want to participate anymore, not my problem.

At lunch, my mother received very bad news that her best friend has been diagnosed with early stage Alzheimer's. This is a woman who I have known my entire life and my sister and I grew up with her and her husband's kids . My parents had told me they had noticed some memory issues with her in November but apparently it has progressed significantly and my parents had not seen them since then as they've been out of state for 3 months. My dad went over to their house this afternoon as he was in Dayton for work. My mother was understandably very upset and said to me "what else can go wrong now?" She made plans to see her friend tomorrow in Dayton.

Since my dad was gone today and my mother was upset, I suggested for her to come with me to pick up the boys from school and we'd all go out to dinner which we did. My father met us for dinner. Apparently, the situation is not good with their friend and the husband has already had to assume a "caretaker" role. 

On the positive side, the boys behavior has been great and dinner was no exception.

They came over to my house afterwards and I unpacked all this "stuff" and put it away. While I was doing this, my mom received a call that her first cousin in Alabama had passed away today. Really, could there be more bad news? We had discussed earlier today how the stress of my situation has already really affected her and all this new stuff is just not needed.

My parents went home and I got the boys to bed.

I sent an email to STBX about a very large heirloom mirror of hers that we've had for 9 years but has been stored in my parents' basement for 3 years as it doesn't go anywhere in this house. STBX had asked me about getting it a few weeks ago. Here's the exchange:

Soca: As an FYI, my parents told me to tell you that you have until next Friday to get your mirror from their house. After that, they will give it to Goodwill.

STBX: Nice. Remember, I asked if you would bring it back the next time you are over there? If you are refusing, I will arrange a time to go to their house to pick it up. Let me know. 

Note how difficult and unreasonable I am here? Get your own damn stuff.


----------



## angelpixie

"I was asked to pass along their message to *you* about *you* making arrangements to go over and pick up *your* mirror. I have done that. Making *your *own arrangements was kind of the whole idea."


----------



## Bullwinkle

I'd go over and crack the mirror and then pretend I had no idea what had happened to it.


----------



## HappyKaty

True story, Soca! Do NOT get it for her. SO proud of you.


----------



## soca70

Thanks, guys! I hope you see how this is all turned around on how uncooperative, how non-supportive I am. How dare my parents not want to be a storage facility for someone who's bailing on thier family!

My mom was even saying earlier today how selfish STBX has turned out to be and how we've never really known this for 12 years and would have never imagined this. But she thinks this is the true person we're seeing now. 

STBX had called the boys while my parents were there. And one boy is asking "Are you coming home tonight? No? Well you have to come home Wednesday night." My mom was just disgusted.

And here's the rest:

Soca: You will need to make arrangements with them.

STBX: fine


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> And here's the rest:
> 
> Soca: You will need to make arrangements with them.
> 
> STBX: fine


:smthumbup:


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Thanks, guys! I hope you see how this is all turned around on how uncooperative, how non-supportive I am. How dare my parents not want to be a storage facility for someone who's bailing on thier family!
> 
> My mom was even saying earlier today how selfish STBX has turned out to be and how we've never really known this for 12 years and would have never imagined this. But she thinks this is the true person we're seeing now.
> 
> STBX had called the boys while my parents were there. And one boy is asking "Are you coming home tonight? No? Well you have to come home Wednesday night." My mom was just disgusted.
> 
> And here's the rest:
> 
> Soca: You will need to make arrangements with them.
> 
> STBX: fine


Samurai blameshifter.

You see it yet?


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Hey, Soca -- This popped up on my FB today, and I thought of you and Daddio and all the other single Dads on here and how much you do for your kids. Glad you're not this poor clueless guy.
> 
> Divorced Father Buys String Cheese To Make Coming To His Place Fun | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


I'm hoping that is satirical...

And that I offer a little more than string cheese! Right now, my biggest competition are the bunk beds!


----------



## angelpixie

Of course it is!! You guys are awesome!


----------



## soca70

So a typical TAM morning activity - deleting STBX as the 401 (k) beneficiary...


----------



## catcalls

hey, soca

you are doing well. the consequences of her actions are starting to hit her more frequently and more forcefully.

she probably had a nice plan in her head, where everything was nicely rearranged. she is such a reasonable and amicable person, surely everyone can understand that the marriage was not working for her. but being the lovely adult that she is, she will have a great working relationship with ex hubby and the in laws too. she can partake in family activities when it suits her. have the kids for a while, but hubby can pick up the slack when it does not suit her. meanwhile, she can have some freedom (marriage was so regimented and not meeting her needs). so it is only natural to step out of it. if you did not understand, it is because you are not mature enough and not empathetic enough. 

now despite her best efforts to manage the transition, some things are not going to plan. you and your family are hostile to poor reasonable her. 

if she came to you and said it was all a big mistake on her part and she now realises that she does not want to be divorced, will you take her back?


----------



## soca70

catcalls said:


> hey, soca
> 
> you are doing well. the consequences of her actions are starting to hit her more frequently and more forcefully.
> 
> she probably had a nice plan in her head, where everything was nicely rearranged. she is such a reasonable and amicable person, surely everyone can understand that the marriage was not working for her. but being the lovely adult that she is, she will have a great working relationship with ex hubby and the in laws too. she can partake in family activities when it suits her. have the kids for a while, but hubby can pick up the slack when it does not suit her. meanwhile, she can have some freedom (marriage was so regimented and not meeting her needs). so it is only natural to step out of it. if you did not understand, it is because you are not mature enough and not empathetic enough.
> 
> now despite her best efforts to manage the transition, some things are not going to plan. you and your family are hostile to poor reasonable her.
> 
> if she came to you and said it was all a big mistake on her part and she now realises that she does not want to be divorced, will you take her back?


Catcalls - you nailed it!!! This sums up everything I have dealt with for 6 months. That was pretty uncanny on your part - I'm impressed!:smthumbup:

I don't think I have to concern myself with any reconciliation efforts from STBX so it's kind of a rhetorical question.


----------



## soca70

Amicable and reasonable below. Just receiving this irritates the he!! out of me.

STBX:

Soca-

Just wanted to confirm the plans for Easter weekend. I will be at the house on Saturday night and Sunday morning for the Easter bunny, and I will go to church and sit with the boys Sunday morning. Although I don’t foresee a problem, please remind your family to keep things cordial at church for the boys. I agreed that you could take the boys after church on Sunday to your parents' house for lunch and Easter egg hunting, etc. They will like that. 

Since the boys are spending Easter Sunday with you at your parents’ house, I told you last week that I would celebrate Easter with the boys at my place on Saturday. Now I understand that you want to take the boys to your parents’ on Saturday too to decorate Easter eggs with A____. Again, that is fine, because I think the boys will like that. On Saturday morning, I will take the boys to D____ Diner for breakfast and then to my place to celebrate Easter. I will have them back home by 2:00 pm so you can take them to your parents’ house.

Last week and this week, (my attorney) and I have been working on your latest custody proposal. We are almost done. We will send it to your attorneys soon. In an effort to communicate and work together better, I will send an email to you discussing our proposed changes so you know what to expect.


----------



## Conrad

Bake the cake so she can continue to eat it.


----------



## HappyKaty

Open Hefty bag, insert clothing.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Bake the cake so she can continue to eat it.


OK - here's what's really going to happen...

Friday I'm picking up my niece and she's spending the night here with the boys after all of us going out to dinner. I will not let STBX know until Friday morning. She will not want to spend the night on Fri becuase my niece is here and now there's no room. And if I don't let her know until last minute, it will derail any altrenate Friday night plans. And kill her Saturday morning plans and I will say, you can arrange with the boys from 2:00-5:00 for something at your place. So basically, Easter weekend, I've pushed her pretty much out of the picture Fri, Sat, and Sun. And I will probably take the boys down to Sunday School at church so no reason to sit with us.

Does this make sense? Or is it just manipulation?

And guys what did you think of Catcalls take? I thought that was spot on.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> So a typical TAM morning activity - deleting STBX as the 401 (k) beneficiary...


Hey Soca70 - 

I did not think this was allowed until a divorce is official? If that's not the case, I'd like to look into changing mine as well, to (swap his name with those of my niece and nephew).

Thanks! Best,- A12


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Amicable and reasonable below. Just receiving this irritates the he!! out of me.
> 
> STBX:
> 
> Soca-
> 
> Just wanted to confirm the plans for Easter weekend. I will be at the house on Saturday night and Sunday morning for the Easter bunny, and I will go to church and sit with the boys Sunday morning. Although I don’t foresee a problem, please remind your family to keep things cordial at church for the boys. I agreed that you could take the boys after church on Sunday to your parents' house for lunch and Easter egg hunting, etc. They will like that.
> 
> Since the boys are spending Easter Sunday with you at your parents’ house, I told you last week that I would celebrate Easter with the boys at my place on Saturday. Now I understand that you want to take the boys to your parents’ on Saturday too to decorate Easter eggs with A____. Again, that is fine, because I think the boys will like that. On Saturday morning, I will take the boys to D____ Diner for breakfast and then to my place to celebrate Easter. I will have them back home by 2:00 pm so you can take them to your parents’ house.
> 
> Last week and this week, (my attorney) and I have been working on your latest custody proposal. We are almost done. We will send it to your attorneys soon. In an effort to communicate and work together better, I will send an email to you discussing our proposed changes so you know what to expect.


Wow, she is quite the boss lady here. You say she has not always been this way? Your Mom thought she had changed over time and she is now showing her true colors?

Warmly, A12


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Hey Soca70 -
> 
> I did not think this was allowed until a divorce is official? If that's not the case, I'd like to look into changing mine as well, to (swap his name with those of my niece and nephew).
> 
> Thanks! Best,- A12


I don't know. I just checked with my HR dept and they said I could change through our administrator (SunTrust). I went to the website and changed my primary beneficiary to my father, deleted STBX's name, and kept the boys as contingents 50/50. The system accepted and confirmed the change. I'd advise to check with your administrator (and I will doublecheck this too).


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I don't know. I just checked with my HR dept and they said I could change through our administrator (SunTrust). I went to the website and changed my primary beneficiary to my father, deleted STBX's name, and kept the boys as contingents 50/50. The system accepted and confirmed the change. I'd advise to check with your administrator (and I will doublecheck this too).


I think you can change 401(k) with no problems.

It's Life Insurance that would require STBX's signature.


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Wow, she is quite the boss lady here. You say she has not always been this way? Your Mom thought she had changed over time and she is now showing her true colors?
> 
> Warmly, A12


This just summarizes what I told her the plans would be. Note the changes like "You indicated to me aftewards..."

I've been receiving these "official" emails all day after I sent the text advising here to cooridnate with my parents to pick up the mirror. She's p****d.


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> This just summarizes what I told her the plans would be. Note the changes like "You indicated to me aftewards..."
> 
> I've been receiving these "official" emails all day after I sent the text advising here to cooridnate with my parents to pick up the mirror. She's p****d.


Aww she's p!ssed to effin bad. You want to be a single mom. Be careful what you wish for...


----------



## Conrad

tom67 said:


> Aww she's p!ssed to effin bad. You want to be a single mom. Be careful what you wish for...


But Tom... can't we all be nice so I can get MY needs met?

I mean, Soca's not that bad, as long as he does what I want and I'm not expected to have sex with him!


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> But Tom... can't we all be nice so I can get MY needs met?
> 
> I mean, Soca's not that bad, as long as he does what I want and I'm not expected to have sex with him!


What was that song-me,myself, and I?


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> I don't know. I just checked with my HR dept and they said I could change through our administrator (SunTrust). I went to the website and changed my primary beneficiary to my father, deleted STBX's name, and kept the boys as contingents 50/50. The system accepted and confirmed the change. I'd advise to check with your administrator (and I will doublecheck this too).


OK, thanks Soca and Conrad -- looking into this myself as well.


----------



## doureallycare2

Ultimate in Stupid and to me Criminal Affair behavior.

Boys dead after mom allegedly left them in car while having affair | HLNtv.com


----------



## Awakening2012

Conrad said:


> I think you can change 401(k) with no problems.


Done, done and done! Let my youngest relatives (my delightful niece and nephew) inherit Autnie's fortune, H has enough dough.
 Thanks, guys!

Cheers, - A12


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Done, done and done! Let my youngest relatives (my delightful niece and nephew) inherit Autnie's fortune, H has enough dough.
> Thanks, guys!
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Well, we're here to help each other muddle through all this crap! 

So I have been informed that my sister's plans have changed (read = flaked) for this weekend (believe it or not Soca's family has some issues too ) and has left me scrambling for some alternate plans for the weekend which now include:

1. Going to Dayton Friday with my mom and the boys and maybe picking up my niece or maybe not and going to a Kids Science Museum/Planetarium/Small Zoo. Which actually looked very intersting with an exhibit about microbes designed for kids and the planetarium looked cool. Beats the heck out of Chuck E Cheese again. Family Movie Night will be avoided by a dinner in Dayton and then driving home.

2. Saturday - well this one gets tricky. I used my niece as leverage to get me and the boys away from STBX but now she's not spending the night and will stay in Dayton so it looks like STBX's plans until 2:00 PM will go into effect. And then the egg dyeing commences at our house with a cameo appearance by my mother. We will see if STBX stays for those activities.

3. Sunday - Easter bunny in the morning with STBX. My sister's family will not be going to church with us but meeting us at my parents' house afterwards as they will be going to morning services in Dayton and driving over. Which will leave the happy Soca family of me, STBX, the boys, and my parents snugly nestled in one pew. Can't wait for that awkward hour. I did let my parents know that STBX had reminded them to be cordial. That went over like a lead balloon. Lunch with the whole family (minus STBX) but with the added bonus of tension between my mom and my sister because of the late change in plans. 

So a TAM GTDS Easter holiday. In the past, I really enjoyed these but now it's so much Machiavellian planning, the fun gets kind of sucked out of it.


----------



## Conrad

Awakening2012 said:


> Done, done and done! Let my youngest relatives (my delightful niece and nephew) inherit Autnie's fortune, H has enough dough.
> Thanks, guys!
> 
> Cheers, - A12


How Randian of you


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Just put your wife in the middle right next to your mom.

That should start Easter Sunday mass with a bang.


----------



## GutPunch

Nice one Chip
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> Just put your wife in the middle right next to your mom.
> 
> That should start Easter Sunday mass with a bang.


:rofl:

When the wafers start flying, I'll blameshift on you!

As a small update, STBX emailed me to let me know that she was working on some changes to the agreement and would send me over the details in advance. I responded if it's anything major let me know now so my time isn't wasted. She sent the the list over and mostly the same that we have agreed upon and one addition I will not agree to. But it's pretty close now.

Tonight, STBX was yapping on the phone with the West Coast office after the boys had gone to bed. I was remebering how relieved and reassured I was at the beginning of this that she was still here every night. Now I'm just annoyed.


----------



## Conrad

Liking the annoyed part.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> I don't know. I just checked with my HR dept and they said I could change through our administrator (SunTrust). I went to the website and changed my primary beneficiary to my father, deleted STBX's name, and kept the boys as contingents 50/50. The system accepted and confirmed the change. I'd advise to check with your administrator (and I will doublecheck this too).


What I do for a living.

By default the Federal government has mandated that the spouse of the employee enrolled in a 401K or 401B tax deferred retirement plan is the sole beneficiary (bene). The employee may name contingent beneficiaries in case the spouse predeceases him. naming someone other than a spouce can lead to court actions.

As far as a Bene change on a life or annuity policy, your lawyer should advise you not to change anything until the divorce is final. If your going to change it, change it before you have your spouse served with divorce papers.

In my case I listed my stbxh as my contingent and my sons as co/Benes when I first took out my policy so there is nothing he can do. On his policy I have asked that my lawyer ask for either I or my sons to be named as irrevocable Bene, that way any woman he ends up with can never be named as the bene.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, Soca, sitting in the same pew with STBX on Easter Sunday. One again, you're a better man than me. I'd be out in the car drinking out of a flask.


----------



## Conrad

Bullwinkle said:


> Wow, Soca, sitting in the same pew with STBX on Easter Sunday. One again, you're a better man than me. I'd be out in the car drinking out of a flask.


We'll hide the communion wine.


----------



## Awakening2012

doureallycare2 said:


> What I do for a living. By default the Federal government has mandated that the spouse of the employee enrolled in a 401K or 401B tax deferred retirement plan is the sole beneficiary (bene).


Hi DYRC2 - Thanks for this helpful information. Just a quick clarification if you can. I understand the above statement to apply for *employer-sponsored* retirement plans. What about my separate independent (and much larger) non-employer related retirement account where I have consolidated all my savings from every job since college? Is it OK in that case for me to remove PSTBXH (new acronym for him, LOL!).

Thanks! Best, - A12


----------



## staystrong

Bullwinkle said:


> Wow, Soca, sitting in the same pew with STBX on Easter Sunday. One again, you're a better man than me. I'd be out in the car drinking out of a flask.


Soca, I guess your family is backing off the threat to get up and move away from her if she decides to sit down next to you all?


----------



## doureallycare2

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi DYRC2 - Thanks for this helpful information. Just a quick clarification if you can. I understand the above statement to apply for *employer-sponsored* retirement plans. What about my separate independent (and much larger) non-employer related retirement account where I have consolidated all my savings from every job since college? Is it OK in that case for me to remove PSTBXH (new acronym for him, LOL!).
> 
> Thanks! Best, - A12


Are you talking about an IRA? 

Unfortunately IRA's, 401k, 401B, Annuities, can all be considered assets during a divorce even if you had them prior to the marriage. 

There are some spousal exceptions for IRA's however, it will depend how long you have had them and when and how funds were distributed to them. 

If you had your stbxh as a bene on an existing IRA then you should not change it unless you have consulted with a Family law attorney. I can guarantee you his lawyer will have a field day with it if you did.


----------



## Awakening2012

With apologies to Soca70 (hijacking -- sorry!), thank you DYRC2! I'll PM you, DYRC2.

Soca, I hope you are doing OK!


----------



## soca70

staystrong said:


> Soca, I guess your family is backing off the threat to get up and move away from her if she decides to sit down next to you all?


Somewhat. Since my sister's new change of plans, I'm thinking of putting the boys in Sunday school as usaul that day and that will sidestep the whole issue.


----------



## soca70

Today, my company scheduled an employee-wide conference call with the new owners late this afternoon to announce the completion of the acquisition. I let STBX know I would not be able to pick up the boys at the usual time and asked if she could. She responded no since their firm was working on an emergency filing for a client due end of day tomorrow. Asked me "Do we need to arrange for child care?" I said no, I'll pick them up earlier.

Went to lunch with my mother and then I remembered I needed my Ipad back from STBX to keep one of the boys occupied during this call (he had taken it with him when STBX dropped them off at school this morning). Stopped by unannounced at the rental to get it. STBX had called me earlier about this but I didn't listen to the message. She lets me know that she's working late becuase of the brief but will be back when the boys go to bed. I say about 3 words and notice she's got a copy of "The Language of Letting Go" on her desk. How about "The Language of Getting Your A$$ in Gear for Your Family"?

I asked the boys' best friend's mom if she could pick them up after school and take them over to her house and then we could possibly get dinner with all 3 - sure, no problem! Oh and not to pry, but (her son) told her that (my son) had told her that STBX has moved out and has a new house. Is everything OK? So I said I will fill you in at dinner.

After the call, swung by boys' friend's house, reviewed the kitchen remodeling project, and took all 3 boys for a very unruly dinner. Well, she was shocked to hear about the separation, said no one has a clue about this, and did you try MC? Explained STBX declined and not looking for any reconciliation. It was actually nice to discuss this with someone IRL in the community. Of course, this was my version so she may eventually hear another take from STBX .

Got back around 8:00 PM and STBX had texted me earlier about where I was with the boys and that she had come over but no one was there and was back at the rental. I texted back that we were on the way home.

STBX br in breezes in and I let her know that we had gone to dinner and (kids' friend's mom) had picked them up and we went to dinner as I had the call with all the details regarding the new owners, etc which elicited *crickets* as a response.

STBX then says she has only 30 minutes to stay because of the project that they were working on until 9 PM PST (which is midnight here) and she'd be back at that time. And also, she had gone to the gym today and was over at the hair salon (at least the priorities are straight). Then a long drawn-out description of this brief which one of my kids commented "That all sounds like blah, blah, blah". I could tell she really wanted to talk to me about this and I was "Mmmm...mmmm..." and looking in the general direction but no real eye contact which I could tell was flustering her.

We put the boys to bed and as usual now, she's out of here in a flash to get back to work. On the way out, she asks me to review the changes to the custody agreement she's made and let her know what will fly with me so her lawyer can get this all over to mine next week.

Well at least the part-time parenting is not interfering with the full-time lawyering.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Jesus God, SoCa, I don't know how you do it. I would lose my mind.


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

Had enough yet?


----------



## soca70

But guys don't you see? I am non-supportive, not understanding of her job, not loving, not romantic...

What has been interesting the last couple of years is the switch in our roles. STBX had always prided herself on being the "primary care-taker" for the boys and really let me (and everyone else) know it. However, she did admit in September, I had stepped my efforts up. I was thinking can she not see who's really been holding this together for the last couple of years?

And the sad part for STBX is that all this work is really for naught besides a paycheck. By being located here, she took herself off the partner track and no opportunity for advancement. I have said for YEARS to get licensed in Ohio and at least if you work this much, it will pay off down the road. Now, you're just wasting time.

Oh and don't even mention it that I make more money...


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Jesus God, SoCa, I don't know how you do it. I would lose my mind.


This is frightening coming from you!


----------



## happyman64

> which elicited *crickets* as a response.


Expect more of this in the future. Just wait when you get a girlfriend or two.

And wait till one of your "friends" tells you what your wife said are her for he Divorce......

And your wife is reading about letting go to see if she left anything out for the show.

Patience Soca. A good mental exercise is throwing her crap in large black hefty bags.

Have the boys help Mommy move. It will not be he lat Ike they do it.

Believe it.


----------



## staystrong

> "That all sounds like blah, blah, blah".


Is no one going to point out how great this line is? :rofl:

I mean, it's technically disrespectful but it's pretty hilarious. Comic relief from Soca, Jr.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good catch, SS. Agree, great line.


----------



## doureallycare2

Im sorry but I think its going to get worse before it gets better (as the saying goes). I hope you manage to have a good Easter!


----------



## HappyKaty

doureallycare2 said:


> Im sorry but I think its going to get worse before it gets better (as the saying goes). I hope you manage to have a good Easter!


I think she'll fight for the kids, but not much else. Her actions prove she just wants to wash her hands of Soca. It's so strange - how indifferent she is. I swear there's an OM.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> I think she'll fight for the kids, but not much else. Her actions prove she just wants to wash her hands of Soca. It's so strange - how indifferent she is. I swear there's an OM.


HK - "stalky" me has pretty much eliminated any OM throughout this. But I believe the intent is there once this is over.

I'm not sure if it's indifference or just an almost complete unawareness of the fall-out of this (or maybe a bit of both). As Catcalls said earlier, STBX had this all planned out in her mind ahead of time, would be her usual charming self, do her thing over there and I'd do my thing here, split the boys, no harm, no foul. Everyone moves on happily ever after. 

On D-Day, she even said to me well this will give you free time on the weekends so you can take up golf (like this is a selling point?). Also on D-day, she asked me to move into my parents' guest bedroom while this was done. I think she expected maybe a week or so. Well Soca has not cooperated as usual and now we've seen the real STBX "evolve" here and with the insight of the TAM board here, I've realized that STBX may have been "evolving" for some time here.

Even as we speak, she's sending me emails arguing about the changes I didn't agree to on this custody agreement. I'm about to fire one off that says I'm about 5 minutes from yanking that and going to court for full custody.


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> HK - "stalky" me has pretty much eliminated any OM throughout this. But I believe the intent is there once this is over.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's indifference or just an almost complete unawareness of the fall-out of this (or maybe a bit of both). As Catcalls said earlier, STBX had this all planned out in her mind ahead of time, would be her usual charming self, do her thing over there and I'd do my thing here, split the boys, no harm, no foul. Everyone moves on happily ever after.
> 
> On D-Day, she even said to me well this will give you free time on the weekends so you can take up golf (like this is a selling point?). Also on D-day, she asked me to move into my parents' guest bedroom while this was done. I think she expected maybe a week or so. Well Soca has not cooperated as usual and now we've seen the real STBX "evolve" here and with the insight of the TAM board here, I've realized that STBX may have been "evolving" for some time here.
> 
> Even as we speak, she's sending me emails arguing about the changes I didn't agree to on this custody agreement. I'm about to fire one off that says I'm about 5 minutes from yanking that and going to court for full custody.


Soca everyone has their limit as to the bs they can take. Sounds like you have finally reached that limit.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> notice she's got a copy of "The Language of Letting Go" on her desk. How about "The Language of Getting Your A$$ in Gear for Your Family"?


Love this - LOL! So spot on


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Do not threaten the lawyer. Just stay firm to what you wnat in the custody agreement.

And as far as her "letting go". You are right.

She already has and has had this split planned for a while.

But I urge you to get this Divorce done and put her behind you.

She does not want you. She does not want a family with you.

And her desire for custody of the boys, well, that will be seen for what it is over time.

Get her out. Keep her out.

Heal.

Then Soca release 70.2 comes out of the gates.

And the next woman will be vetted by you, because by then you will know what to look for in a woman.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Even as we speak, she's sending me emails arguing about the changes I didn't agree to on this custody agreement. I'm about to fire one off that says I'm about 5 minutes from yanking that and going to court for full custody.


I'd have been there awhile back.

Her nonchalant breeziness speaks narcissism to me.


----------



## happyman64

Conrad said:


> I'd have been there awhile back.
> 
> Her nonchalant breeziness speaks narcissism to me.


You can say that again!!!


----------



## staystrong

Conrad said:


> I'd have been there awhile back.
> 
> Her nonchalant breeziness speaks narcissism to me.


Can you elaborate on this?


----------



## Conrad

staystrong said:


> Can you elaborate on this?


I would say that - even though we still haven't found a posOM - that Soca's wife is likely the most despised STBX in this forum.

She seems to be completely oblivious to the pain and the crushing psychological trauma she inflicts on those around her.

She is concerned with herself and herself only - and how she "looks" to the outside world.

There seems to be no compassion whatsoever for those she insists on hurting this way.


----------



## staystrong

Agreed.

I wonder if it's all just a big front and not real narcissism. 

It's her trying to act strong when she knows she's alone in this. 

The Easter pew seating arrangement, example. There's some bravado to that, wouldn't you say?


----------



## Conrad

staystrong said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I wonder if it's all just a big front and not real narcissism.
> 
> It's her trying to act strong when she knows she's alone in this.
> 
> The Easter pew seating arrangement, example. There's some bravado to that, wouldn't you say?


It's what SHE wants.

The hell with everyone else

She's been amazingly consistent the entire thread


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> Im sorry but I think its going to get worse before it gets better (as the saying goes). I hope you manage to have a good Easter!


And DYRC wins this round...

My mother comes down this morning to go with me and the boys to Dayton to pick up my niece and go to a kids' museum as planned.

On the drive over, boys start telling her about STBX's new place, etc and how she's still coming over at night during the week. It becomes somewhat obvious that they think this is how things will be moving forward (as our family therapist indicated they might). So, we had to get somewhat "clearer" on what's going to happen and that STBX will soon never be coming back to this house and we're still trying to determine how much they will stay in each house, etc. Well the realiziation hit them like a ton of bricks. They are crying and one boy starts almost hyperventilating.

Which then infuriates my mom who gets on the phone and calls STBX. To which I say not a good idea and she hangs up. But then STBX calls back. And to summarize, my mother starts with "I've not said anything to you about this for 6 months but now R___ and S____ are hysterical as you have been confusing them with your actions and now they know the truth..." which results in STBX hanging up on my mother. And then STBX calls back wanting to talk to me and my mom says no he's driving and another hangup. And then another call back which ends with my mother saying "You have mental problems" which results in STBX saying "F**k you!" to my mother. Which ended this conversation. Boys are still crying and I say we'll talk when we get to my sister's house.

So I get the boys in my niece's room just the 3 of us and close the door and I have a very candid conversation with them. I say STBX and I are still trying to remain friends, she loves you, etc. And that I did not want them to not have two parents in a family and this wasn't my choice and I'm sad and angry too but we'll figure it out. They were also very concerned about other people finding out about this which I said I know and they will but that's OK. Not once did I badmouth STBX. We ended it with my one son asking me not to get married again. They had calmed down considerably by this time and by the time we got to the museum they were fine.

Luckily, the museum was great and they loved it. Then met my sister for dinner and then drove back over to my parents' house to drop my mom off. One boy had to go to the bathroom so we went inside and got sucked into a Scooby Doo movie and stayed until 10 PM (way past bedtime but no school tomorrow). STBX had texted earlier that she had gotten the dog and brought over to her place so dog wouldn't pee on the new carpet. And then at 9:30 asking me to respond as to waht time I was planning on being home. I ignored both as I already said it would be a late night Friday.

Got home at 10:30 and STBX and I do not acknowledge each other and she's trying to hang out with them in the family room and I'm trying to get them up to bed. Bedtime for both then and she hasn't been down since.

I don't see the communal pew happening on Sunday. We'll see if she tries to keep them all day tomorrow as we've agreed to switch at 2:00.

My lawyer got back to me and said absolutely not on the requested changes to the agreement.


----------



## soca70

And the kicker is STBX tells my mother that it's my fault we're in this situation now as I haven't signed the custody agreement.


----------



## angelpixie

Of course she did.

The narcissists are all alike. My ex did the same thing. Every delay was my fault. 

It will be over soon, sweetie. Hang in there.


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

The hell with the b!tch.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, SoCa, telling your mother F you, that crossed the line. Sorry you have to endure all this.


----------



## happyman64

Stay out of the drama Soca.

Your upset.
Your parents are upset.
The boys are upset.
Your wife is angry. But I do not think upset.

Stay the course. Get her out of the house.

And in the future you will find another woman that you will fall in love with and your boys will too!

Have a fun Easter. Keep the peace as best you can. 

And do not let your Mom have a heart attack.

It is not worth it.....

HM


----------



## Awakening2012

Good luck this weekend, Soca70 -- I'm sorry it has been so rough and prolonged, but this too shall pass. And you will soon be starting a fresh new drama-free chapter! 

Happy Easter! Have some Peeps on me!  

Cheers, - A12


----------



## soca70

Thanks, guys. STBX has the boys until this afternoon so I slept in.

On another note, I took a pic for our general enjoyment at the kids meseum yesterday...


----------



## catcalls

sorry to hear about all this drama, but it is good in a way. it is a way for your mother to get her frustration out, you and the others to tell your STBX that what she is doing is not ok or right. of course it is not pleasant and she is not going to get it. it will probably reinforce in her mind that she is in the right. but who cares about her. your boys had a meltdown, that is terrible for your see, but it is still not a bad thing. they cried about it, they talked about their feelings and they got over it and went on to enjoy themselves. you will have a few more of these episodes but they will realise that they still have both parents and a loving house. 

better than everyone pretending that all is well and there will be no changes to their lives. they will adapt and see her eventually as the deserter of the family (which she is).

i could not figure out why your X is this way, but what conrad says makes sense. narcissistic personality does explain it to some extent.

enjoy your easter break. if things are tense when she is in the house, just avoid her and make it easy for yourself.


----------



## happyman64

Nice bags soca
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> Nice bags soca
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish they were floating in raw sewage


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> I wish they were floating in raw sewage


I wish they were full of the b1tch's belongings.


----------



## angelpixie




----------



## soca70

:rofl:


----------



## Orpheus

think i agree with your mother on this one, Slappy.

happy easter, Soca.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Loved the picture, SoCa. I just hope STBX isn't IN those bags.


----------



## doureallycare2

Soca, Well Im very sorry to here it but the writting was on the wall and still is. While your stbx likes to play at being a good mother she isnt. Her sons best interst are not what drives her as we have seen here over and over again. Whe wants everything she can get and does not care about the fall out to her children. I would caution you to tell your mother no more "drama" conversations in front of the boys. It does not help to see granma getting upset with mom. Good luck.....


----------



## soca70

A quick update...

Was summoned at the last minute yesterday for a trade show in Virginia. I had been watching the boys and their best friend since it was Spring Break (we had gone putt putt golfing) and I had to ask STBX to take over until Wed night.

The big crowds at church for Easter resolved the seating issues. STBX took one boy as the other one was having some difficulty getting dressed. So by the time we got there, there were no seats next to STBX. And my parents were late so it ended up with my parents, one boy, and me in the balcony while STBX was down on the main floor with the other. Which worked well. My mother said she wouldn't have actually moved because it was - well, church.

Went to my parents' house for lunch afterwards with the boys and my sister's family and had a great time with a marathon of egg hunting. My niece ended up spending the night with us on Sunday.

Saturday night, STBX and I had a long discussion. Basically catcalls was right. STBX is baffled why me and my family have made things so difficult as she has been from the beginning cordial, friendly, and fair as possible. Suggested it was because I was trying to turn this on to her to avoid any blame for myself in our marriage.

Upshot is I let her know that my patience is wearing thin on this agreement with the continual changes. Sunday night, she said she'd agree to the original proposal and would finalize with her attorney this week.


----------



## Bullwinkle

I guess this is the best you can hope for at this stage, SoCA. At least you're still able to talk to her at all, I guess it really could be worse.

I'm glad the church thing turned out okay and wasn't as stresful as you'd feared.


----------



## HappyKaty

Remind me...

What was the original proposal?


----------



## angelpixie

I'm glad you had a good Easter holiday, Soca. I was a little worried when we didn't have an update. I was periodically checking the web for possible news of a huge kerfuffle in Ohio. :rofl: 

I'm glad you were able to let her know that you're reaching the end of your patience. I hope the resolution of this comes soon for you and the boys.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> Remind me...
> 
> What was the original proposal?


60/40 during the school year, residential school placement, certain decision-making authority, unconditional relocation for me.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> I'm glad you had a good Easter holiday, Soca. I was a little worried when we didn't have an update. I was periodically checking the web for possible news of a huge kerfuffle in Ohio. :rofl:
> 
> I'm glad you were able to let her know that you're reaching the end of your patience. I hope the resolution of this comes soon for you and the boys.


Yes it's getting very close now. I was having trouble sleeping last night thinking about my time away from the boys.


----------



## soca70

And to top it off, there is a vendor party tonight at this show that requires a COSTUME!!! Off to the costume shop here in Richmond, VA...


----------



## angelpixie

Pics! Pics! Pics!


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## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> 60/40 during the school year, residential school placement, certain decision-making authority, unconditional relocation for me.


She's an even bigger c*nt, in my eyes, for agreeing to this.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> I was having trouble sleeping last night thinking about my time away from the boys.


Sorry, sweetie.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> She's an even bigger c*nt, in my eyes, for agreeing to this.


Why do you say that? The 60/40 is the boys wanted (and needed for stability) more time in the "main" house during the school year and then 50/50 during the summer. 

I pushed for the relocation if I need to move for work and I didn't want to have to negotiate for having them come with me. STBX has the option of moving as well. Since we both work remotely, not that insurmountable of an issue (now).

Maybe to your point, is who can give away their kids' lives like this? Yeah - I don't get that.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Maybe to your point, is who can give away their kids' lives like this? Yeah - I don't get that.


That.

Just because she doesn't want to be married, doesn't mean she should be relinquished of 50% of the parental duties and responsibilities, regardless of what the kids want. 

Women that so easily give up full rights to something that grew inside of them, are nothing but worthless pieces of sh1t, IMO.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> That.
> 
> Just because she doesn't want to be married, doesn't mean she should be relinquished of 50% of the parental duties and responsibilities, regardless of what the kids want.
> 
> Women that so easily give up full rights to something that grew inside of them, are nothing but worthless pieces of sh1t, IMO.


We made this as a minimum and the plan is to be more interactive than this. It better be because I do not want to go 5 days without seeing the boys. And I know they don't want that either. I don't think STBX does either but I in the back opf my mind I think she wants the free time for work, etc. I could be very wrong but I'm not sure.


----------



## karole

I am happy for you that your STBXW agreed to your custody agreement, but like others, I do not understand her. Were it my children, I would be fighting til the ends of the earth for as much time as I could possibly get with my children.


----------



## aliceinnc

Be strong for the kids. You dont want someone that does not want you. Do the 180. Pray and take care of yourself. Eat well, exercise, and pray. Good luck!!


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> We made this as a minimum and the plan is to be more interactive than this. It better be because I do not want to go 5 days without seeing the boys. And I know they don't want that either. I don't think STBX does either but I in the back opf my mind I think she wants the free time for work, etc. I could be very wrong but I'm not sure.


What sort of rotation do you have with the 60/40?


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> We made this as a minimum and the plan is to be more interactive than this. It better be because I do not want to go 5 days without seeing the boys. And I know they don't want that either. I don't think STBX does either but I in the back opf my mind I think she wants the free time for work, etc. I could be very wrong but I'm not sure.


If she's agreeing to it, of course she wants the free time; although, I wouldn't be convinced it was for "work". 

Regardless of what "the plan" is, the custody agreement is a legal agreement. If you wanted to be a d1ck, and enforce it to a 'T', you could, just because she was ignorant enough to sign it. You could completely screw her, and shes okay with taking that risk. That's why I think she's a sorry excuse for a mother.


----------



## Openminded

karole said:


> I am happy for you that your STBXW agreed to your custody agreement, but like others, I do not understand her. Were it my children, I would be fighting til the ends of the earth for as much time as I could possibly get with my children.


I have noticed in RL more and more women willing to completely give up custody to their ex-husbands and only see their children every other weekend and one evening during the week. 

They are not only walk-away wives, they are walk-away moms.


----------



## angelpixie

I don't understand it with either parent. Our society treated dads as if they didn't need to see their kids except on weekends, and I'm sure there were a lot of them that were hurting when they couldn't. When we were first setting up how we were going to share taking care of DS (after I moved out but before the legal process got started), I surprised Ex by telling him that I would see DS on my 'off' days for even an hour after school. He truly didn't understand that. "Nobody else does that." I didn't care. It was beyond me that he would think going from a full-time live-in mom to a part-time mom due to my _marriage_ ending would be no big deal to me. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. Frankly, I think I guilted him into doing the same on his 'off' days. He doesn't seem to have as difficult of a time not seeing or talking to DS for a few days at a time. 

I just don't get it -- how the walk-away spouses and parents were able to set what is 'normal' for how we should all be after divorce. Maybe if walk-aways faced more of a stigma, there'd be fewer of them. I don't know.


----------



## karole

I think a lot of these moms/dads don't want their children interfering with their weekend social calendars.


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> We made this as a minimum and the plan is to be more interactive than this. It better be because I do not want to go 5 days without seeing the boys. And I know they don't want that either. I don't think STBX does either but I in the back opf my mind I think she wants the free time for work, etc. I could be very wrong but I'm not sure.



of course she thinks you are being difficult and your family members are being unreasonably angry. i would be tempted to tell her the next time that you cannot expect me to be cordial after you have killed my family. on second thoughts perhaps not. all that emotion and energy is wasted on her. but that does not mean that you are friendly with her and start a new chapter in your lives as caring friends. to hell with that. your main focus should be your wellbeing and that of your kids. 

there is no point pondering the whys of her decision. just get her out of the house and your life (to the extent possible). does she think that you are the better parent than her and hence is happy to give your a bigger portion of the custody or is that something that just suits her new lifestyle.


----------



## doureallycare2

If she was a mother that was struggling with her own demons of recovery and was willing to give up the majority of parental time and control in her childrens best interest; I would say that she loved her children more than her own selfish desires and was willing to put their welfair first. However if its just because she wants more freedom then I have no respect for her as a mother! However she still is doing what is best for the children because they do not need that kind of a mother to be taking care of them,....


----------



## greenfern

IMHO, agreeing to 60/40 during school year & 50/50 in the summer is not exactly 'giving up her children'. 

I think people are being a bit harsh on the mom in this case she seems to spend all her time working & then spending time with her kids. People wouldn't jump all over a dad who did this they would probably congratulate him on spending so much quality time with the kids & how he is a good provider/career guy.


----------



## soca70

For AP's viewing pleasure, my Rhett Butler ensemble for the movie-themed costume event last night at this trade show...


----------



## soca70

Thanks, guys, for the input.

The schedule we have worked out is Sun night, Mon, Tue, and Wed night with me and alternate weekends during the school year and then Sun, Mon, Tue and alternate weekends with me for summer.

STBX's thinking is that since the boys are a 5 minute walk away, we can go back and forth as needed with a flexible schedule.

With our situation, there is no way STBX could get more than a 50/50 visitation schedule. As I said to her, this was a result you decided you could live with you when you made your decision.


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> Thanks, guys, for the input.
> 
> The schedule we have worked out is Sun night, Mon, Tue, and Wed night with me and alternate weekends during the school year and then Sun, Mon, Tue and alternate weekends with me for summer.
> 
> STBX's thinking is that since the boys are a 5 minute walk away, *we can go back and forth as needed with a flexible schedule.*
> 
> With our situation, there is no way STBX could get more than a 50/50 visitation schedule. As I said to her, this was a result you decided you could live with you when you made your decision.


I caution doing this too early though, establish the responsibilities of being a single parent first before starting to barter or trade days here or there.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Thanks, guys, for the input.
> 
> The schedule we have worked out is Sun night, Mon, Tue, and Wed night with me and alternate weekends during the school year and then Sun, Mon, Tue and alternate weekends with me for summer.
> 
> STBX's thinking is that since the boys are a 5 minute walk away, we can go back and forth as needed with a flexible schedule.
> 
> With our situation, there is no way STBX could get more than a 50/50 visitation schedule. As I said to her, this was a result you decided you could live with you when you made your decision.


I cannot wait until you change the locks.

She really thinks that her place is her place and that your place is her place.

Classic cake eater.

And, Soca, there isn't a woman worth having (in an LTR) that would put up with the way she behaves in your life.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> I cannot wait until you change the locks.
> 
> She really thinks that her place is her place and that your place is her place.
> 
> Classic cake eater.
> 
> And, Soca, there isn't a woman worth having (in an LTR) that would put up with the way she behaves in your life.


Well right now, she's got two places. The only reason STBX is over at the house so much now is the boys. Once that's resolved, the boundaries will be enforced as there will be no reason for this "come and go".

Interestingly, something happened recently with my sister and her new husband. His X was around a lot because of their son and my sister has slowly put an end to that.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> We made this as a minimum and the plan is to be more interactive than this. It better be because I do not want to go 5 days without seeing the boys. And I know they don't want that either. I don't think STBX does either but I in the back opf my mind I think she wants the free time for work, etc. I could be very wrong but I'm not sure.


I honestly do not think your wife knows exactly what she wants other than her job......


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Well right now, she's got two places. The only reason STBX is over at the house so much now is the boys. Once that's resolved, the boundaries will be enforced as there will be no reason for this "come and go".
> 
> Interestingly, something happened recently with my sister and her new husband. His X was around a lot because of their son and my sister has slowly put an end to that.


Smart sister. She must have learned from your mother.

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

Who ever thought you would need them with an Ex........


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> Smart sister. She must have learned from your mother.
> 
> Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
> 
> Who ever thought you would need them with an Ex........


This woman is a narcissistic steamroller


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> For AP's viewing pleasure, my Rhett Butler ensemble for the movie-themed costume event last night at this trade show...


Frankly, my dear, very nice! :smthumbup:


----------



## soca70

At the airport now on the way home shortly. Richmond turned out to be a charming city with interesting areas with very friendly "Southern hospitality" folks (when the toll taker says "Thank you, baby", it actually does make you feel good). If anyone's in the area, I'd suggest this town for a visit.

Today, I feel somewhat of a light at the end of the tunnel. This agreement is almost done. Has to be as court is scheduled for next week. And I was scoping out "prospects" on match.com last night with actually the thought of it would be nice to possibly start something up there in a few months (much better than the apathy of a few months ago). And so the 60 day goal is to get to do some "tune-ups" - teeth whitened, get 8 pounds off (started eating again after that initial shock weight loss, in shape as possible, even discussed some kind of sun damage treatment with the dermatolgist). Should be good to go by Memorial Day!

Regarding the boys schedule, STBX and I will have to be flexible and this week proves it. If this was on the "official schedule", I would have had them and needed her to take them as I got called out of town unexpectedly for work. With my company's new acquisistion, I think the travel will start ramping up again. This is why I can't do a "scorched earth" policy with STBX. The truth is with our schedules, we still need each other moving forward.


----------



## angelpixie

I totally understand, Soca. That whole 'smiling with the fingers crossed behind the back' thing. You still may have need of her as the other parent at some point, so you can't get rid of her the way you'd like.


----------



## doureallycare2

I have family in Richmond so I go at least once a year, usually a couple of times. they do have a lot of interesting things to see. if you’re a history buff like I am you can see the re-Enactment of Patrick Henrys speech "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" Of course Edgar Allen Poe was from Richmond so they do tours of his home and office. Maymont Mansion has beautiful grounds and park for you to have a picnic lunch in or you can just do the tour. And of course they have all the civil war plantations on the James river you can take a tour of.


----------



## soca70

I can honestly say I'm almost over the STBX...

So I get back from Virginia tonight about 8:15. I had asked STBX to keep them up until I got home as I had gotten them some small trip gifts. And after about 15 minutes, she's headed out the door to her place. And I said "Aren't you going to put them to bed with me?" And the reply "It's Wednesday so it's my night at my place." Which as I write this, I realize no, her nights are Mon and Tue.

And I ask do we have a lunch for the all-day play date with W______ for tomorrow (that I arranged). No but you can take the boys to the grocery store before you go over there tomorrow morning. And I say "Why don't you go over to the store after we put the boys to bed and pick something up?" So we put the boys to bed, she goes to the store, comes back while I'm still upstairs w one who's still awake, and takes off.

After everyone's asleep about 15 minutes later, I call STBX and say why are you out of here in such a hurry? "I'd been reading with them for an hour and now you're home to take over and I couldn't find you when I got back so I left."

And then says she had forgotten about an IC appointment on Friday morning (the day she took off to watch the boys) and I will need to watch them instead until 12:30 PM. So I say that won't work as I am working and if the appt is not until 11:00, she can stay here until 10:30. And she says "Well I had to come over on Monday at 3:30 because you had to leave for Virginia so I think we'll be even." I suggest rescheduling this appt until next week might be the best option so she can spend the day with the boys as planned. She'll think about it.

And also, the trash was not taken out as often happens when I'm gone so there's an overflow of bags that the dog can get into, and the dog wasn't crated as I had asked because of the new carpet and there's dog poop in the living room, and our guest bathroom toilet had been clogged since Saturday (we have trouble with this one) and I asked if she had contacted the plumber and said no, I just closed the door. And the boys had eaten out almost every meal.

Which is all the same stuff that has driven me crazy for years!!! Maybe it's small stuff and the excuse is always something to do with how much work she has, etc. But both days she called sitters and managed to get to the gym for two hours each day. STBX has accused me of coming in from trips "barking orders" and "inspecting" the house but really if I can make this stuff happen while she's out of town for weeks, I don't see why she is unable to. It's the "can't see the forest for the trees" mentality and why she's still unlicensed here (and will probably never be). After years of this time mismanagement, yes, I did become non-supportive.

So as usual, the boys are pushed off on me as fast as possible so she can go work or do her thing. And again the "I'm doing this much, so you have to do the same or it's not fair". For someone who was so concerned about me "taking" the boys, I would expect bending over backwards to show how indispensable I was. As she resentfully said to me several weeks ago, I had turned into "Father of the Year" since July, I think it's because I've had to take up the slack for a checked out or "don't inconvenience me" other parent.


----------



## angelpixie

Breathe, sweetie, the end is in sight.


----------



## soca70

AP - what do you think for my match.com profile? What's the saying? "Every girl's crazy about a sharp-dressed man"


----------



## soca70

Boys got into it also...


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> AP - what do you think for my match.com profile? What's the saying? "Every girl's crazy about a sharp-dressed man"



True, we are, but context is everything -- don't take the pic in your bathroom.









(and I realize that was probably your hotel)


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> True, we are, but context is everything -- don't take the pic in your bathroom.


Ha! That's the hotel. I took these pics to send to corporate so they know the extreme lengths I am going to for the company!


----------



## happyman64

Don't lose your sense of humor Soca.....

The end is in sight.


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> True, we are, but context is everything -- don't take the pic in your bathroom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (and I realize that was probably your hotel)


LOL- I agree with AP. if your going to post it to a dating site crop the pic


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> LOL- I agree with AP. if your going to post it to a dating site crop the pic


Guys - maybe the sarcasm was lost in translation. There is no way I would post a pic of myself in a Civil War-era topcoat. Who would this attract? Butterfly McQueen?


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> Guys - maybe the sarcasm was lost in translation. There is no way I would post a pic of myself in a Civil War-era topcoat. Who would this attract? Butterfly McQueen?


It got me going, sugar.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Guys - maybe the sarcasm was lost in translation. There is no way I would post a pic of myself in a Civil War-era topcoat. Who would this attract? Butterfly McQueen?


Your STBXW is likely to send her info


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Guys - *maybe the sarcasm was lost in translation.* There is no way I would post a pic of myself in a Civil War-era topcoat. Who would this attract? Butterfly McQueen?



Likewise.  

I didn't respond to the email I got from the guy who said he likes to run in 5K & 10K races...in costume. And proceeded to say "Why pay a lot of money for compression pants when I can get red tights at Walmart?"














But seriously...don't take your pic in your bathroom. You'd be surprised how many times that shows up on dating sites.  *Not* doing it would probably up your 'date-ability' ranking right there.


----------



## soca70

Not in a good space right now. 

STBX is over at the rental all day/night so I've had the boys today after their all day playdate. Had dinner, hung out, watched "North Woods Law", baths, and bedtime. One boy says I want to call (STBX). So I dial for him and he's talking "Why aren't you sleeping here? What are you doing?" Afterwards he tells me STBX says that she's watching a movie and sleeping at her place because the air mattress is uncomfortable. And then he goes on for awhile about how sad he is and how he misses STBX. I say "Well, do you miss Dadda when I travel?" an dhe says "No because you go far away and (STBX) is just over there." I'm not sharing this with because we're way past any feelings of guilt or shame and I don't want to hear "Well, he'll adjust."

I had lunch with my mother today and we've both come to the conclusion is that this is what STBX really wants. Out of being a full-time parent, out of this marriage, just out. My mom thinks STBX will start "pawning" the boys off to me more and more as time goes by (like she tried for tomorrow already and she did end up cancelling her IC appt). And will have babysitters acting pretty much as nannies and I will then need to decide if I will take them to activities or let them miss because STBX is "working".

STBX forwarded to me the email her attorney sent to mine with the final agreement and it's what we ended up negotiating. Opposing counsel wants this filed next Wed 4/10 which is the court date so all that is avoided and then the schedule would go into effect.

I have spent the last 2 hours "cyber-stalking" STBX. I don't trust her. I don't like her. I think she's hidden her true colors for years. I think she's a POS for what she's done to the boys and has no guilt or remorse and happy as a f****g clam over there with her free time. 

The end of this is now here and I do not know if I can actually sign my kids over and have them leave the house. I'm going to talk to my lawyers about re-visiting full custody tomorrow.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> Not in a good space right now.
> 
> STBX is over at the rental all day/night so I've had the boys today after their all day playdate. Had dinner, hung out, watched "North Woods Law", baths, and bedtime. One boy says I want to call (STBX). So I dial for him and he's talking "Why aren't you sleeping here? What are you doing?" Afterwards he tells me STBX says that she's watching a movie and sleeping at her place because the air mattress is uncomfortable. And then he goes on for awhile about how sad he is and how he misses STBX. I say "Well, do you miss Dadda when I travel?" an dhe says "No because you go far away and (STBX) is just over there." I'm not sharing this with because we're way past any feelings of guilt or shame and I don't want to hear "Well, he'll adjust."
> 
> I had lunch with my mother today and we've both come to the conclusion is that this is what STBX really wants. Out of being a full-time parent, out of this marriage, just out. My mom thinks STBX will start "pawning" the boys off to me more and more as time goes by (like she tried for tomorrow already and she did end up cancelling her IC appt). And will have babysitters acting pretty much as nannies and I will then need to decide if I will take them to activities or let them miss because STBX is "working".
> 
> STBX forwarded to me the email her attorney sent to mine with the final agreement and it's what we ended up negotiating. Opposing counsel wants this filed next Wed 4/10 which is the court date so all that is avoided and then the schedule would go into effect.
> 
> I have spent the last 2 hours "cyber-stalking" STBX. I don't trust her. I don't like her. I think she's hidden her true colors for years. I think she's a POS for what she's done to the boys and has no guilt or remorse and happy as a f****g clam over there with her free time.
> 
> The end of this is now here and I do not know if I can actually sign my kids over and have them leave the house. I'm going to talk to my lawyers about re-visiting full custody tomorrow.


Those conversations with the kids can be incredibly nerve wracking and it's easy to let the implications of them get under the skin. 

Please stop cyber-stalking stbx. It will do you no good and prolong your bad moods. 

Also I suggest sleeping on it and looking at the situation again in the morning before deciding to do anything.


----------



## HappyKaty

Why are you making plans for a "match" site, yet crucifying her for the same thing?


----------



## happyman64

Soca



> The end of this is now here and I do not know if I can actually sign my kids over and have them leave the house. I'm going to talk to my lawyers about re-visiting full custody tomorrow.


Why spend more money on full custody when in the end you will most likely end up with full custody.

Stop.

Think.

Calm down.

You are using your emotions when you need to use your cool, calm, dispassionate reasoning my friend.

Who cares what your STBXW is getting out of this split.

Look forward to what you will be getting out of this split.

So get it done. Get her out for good. Give her what she wants.

And go be happy with someone who will value "you" as well as love you and your boys.

Let her Go!

HM64


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> 
> 
> Why spend more money on full custody when in the end you will most likely end up with full custody.
> 
> Stop.
> 
> Think.
> 
> Calm down.
> 
> You are using your emotions when you need to use your cool, calm, dispassionate reasoning my friend.
> 
> Who cares what your STBXW is getting out of this split.
> 
> Look forward to what you will be getting out of this split.
> 
> So get it done. Get her out for good. Give her what she wants.
> 
> And go be happy with someone who will value "you" as well as love you and your boys.
> 
> Let her Go!
> 
> HM64


Good grief between all the wood HM and Conrad are throwing I should have a fire going for a year.


----------



## tom67

Soca go out and casually date you deserve it. Gotta love that hotel shot though


----------



## HappyKaty

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> 
> 
> Why spend more money on full custody when in the end you will most likely end up with full custody.
> 
> Stop.
> 
> Think.
> 
> Calm down.
> 
> You are using your emotions when you need to use your cool, calm, dispassionate reasoning my friend.
> 
> Who cares what your STBXW is getting out of this split.
> 
> Look forward to what you will be getting out of this split.
> 
> So get it done. Get her out for good. Give her what she wants.
> 
> And go be happy with someone who will value "you" as well as love you and your boys.
> 
> Let her Go!
> 
> HM64


THIS!

Let HER go, COMPLETELY.

If she's on dating sites, who cares? Stop stalking her for the same thing you're doing. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, yeah?


----------



## happyman64

tom67 said:


> Good grief between all the wood HM and Conrad are throwing I should have a fire going for a year.


Actually Conrad and I look forward to Soca throwing his "woody" around and building a few fires for himself....


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Guys - maybe the sarcasm was lost in translation. There is no way I would post a pic of myself in a Civil War-era topcoat. Who would this attract? Butterfly McQueen?


ROFL- I think we got the sarcasm, we were just giving you helpful hints for the future (all be it sarcastically)


----------



## doureallycare2

I should tell you though, my son met his wife on a online dating site and the picture that attracted her was of him in a tux brandishing a sword. She contacted him and asked him what he was doing and he said he was a super hero fighting injustice and since she is an attorney that got her attention. The pic was actually taken at a wedding were the groomsmen held swords. lol


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> Why are you making plans for a "match" site, yet crucifying her for the same thing?


HK - the difference is I have no immediate plans to do anything but the reality is that down the line I will have to unless I want to live like a monk. I think I'm doing a little bluster and bravado at this point. And have been forced into this instead of choosing it.

Also, I'm not the one who's been up to this while my kids are at home upset and sad and wondering why I'm not at home.

So looking at this as "fair" is not really what I'm able to do right now.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> 
> 
> Why spend more money on full custody when in the end you will most likely end up with full custody.
> 
> Stop.
> 
> Think.
> 
> Calm down.
> 
> You are using your emotions when you need to use your cool, calm, dispassionate reasoning my friend.
> 
> Who cares what your STBXW is getting out of this split.
> 
> Look forward to what you will be getting out of this split.
> 
> So get it done. Get her out for good. Give her what she wants.
> 
> And go be happy with someone who will value "you" as well as love you and your boys.
> 
> Let her Go!
> 
> HM64


Yes reasonable points. I'm not worried about letting STBX go. I'm worried about letting the boys go and don't want to. However, I think I may not really as you have indicated. It's just scary to me right now actually moving them out. But some long drawn-out court battle won't help either.

STBX came by at 7:00 AM this morning as planned to watch the boys and their best friend who came over at 7:30. They are out for the day at a gaming place/play area/etc. and I'm sure they will have fun.


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> Please stop cyber-stalking stbx. It will do you no good and prolong your bad moods.
> 
> .


Z - yes I had not been doing this for the above reasons for a long time. The last several days I've become fixated on this again. No it's not healthy.


----------



## Conrad

doureallycare2 said:


> I should tell you though, my son met his wife on a online dating site and the picture that attracted her was of him in a tux brandishing a sword. She contacted him and asked him what he was doing and he said he was a super hero fighting injustice and since she is an attorney that got her attention. The pic was actually taken at a wedding were the groomsmen held swords. lol


I've been known to use a sword - from time to time.


----------



## doureallycare2

LOL- see just post that pic, Im sure youll get some interest. rofl


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> HK - the difference is I have no immediate plans to do anything but the reality is that down the line I will have to unless I want to live like a monk. I think I'm doing a little bluster and bravado at this point. And have been forced into this instead of choosing it.
> 
> Also, I'm not the one who's been up to this while my kids are at home upset and sad and wondering why I'm not at home.
> 
> So looking at this as "fair" is not really what I'm able to do right now.


You're justifying the same POS behavior that you despise in her. I don't get it.


----------



## angelpixie

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but she was still quite married when she was trolling, wasn't she? Soca didn't want to split at that point. Now, the divorce (at *her* instigation) is a certainty. Why shouldn't Soca be thinking towards his future? He hasn't said he'd be dating before the divorce is final (which is merely a legal formality at this point anyway, the marriage is over).


----------



## HappyKaty

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I said he shouldn't be looking towards his future. He has admitted to recently cyberstalking her to "make sure" she doesn't have a dating profile, even though she has told him she wasn't looking to date, yet. So, HOW is it okay for him to window shop, but not her?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

I think the point is STBX has been window-shopping from one week out after D-day. And more at every opportunity (witness Orlando trip). And in my opinion (just mine), not entirely in appropriate ways either. So before I sign my kids over, I want to know exactly what I'm dealing with. If it was just me, do whatever the hell you want. If it could embarrass the boys, it's my concern.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> I think the point is STBX has been window-shopping from one week out after D-day. And more at every opportunity (witness Orlando trip). And in my opinion (just mine), not entirely in appropriate ways either. So before I sign my kids over, I want to know exactly what I'm dealing with. If it was just me, do whatever the hell you want. If it could embarrass the boys, it's my concern.


Her dating life is out of your control, as are her parenting techniques.


----------



## 06Daddio08

soca70 said:


> I think the point is STBX has been window-shopping from one week out after D-day. And more at every opportunity (witness Orlando trip). And in my opinion (just mine), not entirely in appropriate ways either. So before I sign my kids over, I want to know exactly what I'm dealing with. *If it was just me, do whatever the hell you want. If it could embarrass the boys, it's my concern.*





zillard said:


> Her dating life is out of your control, as are her parenting techniques.


What Zillard said. Her dating life has absolutely nothing to do with your children or yourself and quite honestly, as long as the kids are in no moral or physical harm, there isn't a thing you can do about it.


----------



## soca70

06Daddio08 said:


> What Zillard said. Her dating life has absolutely nothing to do with your children or yourself and quite honestly, as long as the kids are in no moral or physical harm, there isn't a thing you can do about it.


Agreed. I don't like the feeling of not being in control of my kids' environment. And also just coupled with the idea of STBX out there trolling around. After 12 years, it's not a good feeling. Well I will have to learn to adjust to it.

So STBX stops by at 2:00 PM with of the boys. She had been sending me texts all day of the boys playing with their friend. Son goes into the bathroom to poop because he won't use the bathroom at the rental. Luckily, I fixed it yesterday. Then they are out the door again.

My attorney sends me an email to schedule a teleconference because they do not agree with some of the changes to the agreement and want to discuss with me. I just don't see us turning this around by Wednesday which means we will be required to appear in court. My attorney says that the review process usually takes 60 days before a ruling so there's the buffer. Hopefully we can get the details hammered out by Wed but I'm not even sure what the issues are. This feels unending.

I go to the gym and then STBX calls/texts me to let me know that our joint account which I closed was overdrawn for 45 days and the bank issued a late notice to the credit bureaus. Told me to pay it off.

Housekeeper calls and lets me know she's not showing up today but will be coming tomorrow. Which means I have to straighten up the house before the kids get home now and my dash to the grocery store to replenish the SwifferJet pads was for naught.

Boys' friend's mom just stopped by when I was in the backyard to pick up her son. She's wandering in the house and I let her know they are over at the rental. It's like Grand Central Station here!

I'm working under the assumption that the boys will be back about 5:00. Probably movie night because it's Friday. I'm losing track of the schedule.


----------



## soca70

Why STBX makes the "Most Despised List of TAM"...

I just received this and she calls and I said this is a ridiculous email. She sent it for "documentation"...



I am only sending this email to confirm our telephone conversation a few minutes ago. I told you that I paid the $260 balance for our joint overdraft account (which, as I indicate below, was your responsibility), and that next month I will deduct this amount from my half of the mortgage payment.

Remember that we paid bills for November 2012 from our joint checking account, and then split what was left (I think we received approximately $300 each). Last November I also paid to you one-half of the balance for the overdraft account (which was approximately $1,000). I asked you to close both accounts immediately to avoid any problems. Apparently, you had a problem switching your direct deposit to your new account, so you didn't close the accounts. Instead, when your paycheck was deposited into the joint checking account, you would withdraw the money and deposit it into your new account. In the meantime, as you know, there were hundreds of dollars each month in automatic payments being withdrawn from our joint checking account for "internet services" that you set up, causing the joint checking account to be overdrawn. The bank paid the overdrawn amounts for the joint checking account from the overdraft account. So, the $260 balance for the overdraft account is your responsibility. 

From November 2012 to January/February 2013, I sent you numerous emails and told you repeatedly that the joint checking account was withdrawn again due to the automatic withdraws. I repeatedly asked you to pay the balances and close the accounts so we would not have any problems with the accounts. I think you just closed our joint checking account last month, but apparently you did not pay the balance and close the overdraft account. This week I noticed the $260 balance for the overdraft account and sent you an email to let you know. The payment for the overdraft account was automatically paid from the joint checking account. But since you closed the joint checking account without paying and closing the overdraft account, the bank was unable to transfer the payment from the closed joint checking account to the overdraft account. 

As a result, PNC called me today and said that the overdraft account is 45 days past due and that the delinquency has been to the credit bureaus. To avoid further negative effects to my credit (and yours), I paid this $260 balance today. Again, I will deduct this amount from my half of the mortgage payment next month.


----------



## ReGroup

Just petty. She has a point - but very, very petty.

She's talking to you like you were a child.

She has my vote.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, I hate her now almost as much as mine. It's not the facts, its the tone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

STBX gets home and I follow up on this. She says "You of all people should be more aware of this as you have harped about credit for years and know how important it is" - this coming from someone who had a 500 FICO and couldn't even get a checking account and paid bills via money orders when we met.

Through all of our real esate transactions, she's now very aware what credit issues can do in terms of buying property and had a 780 this summer when we refi'd.

I was very tempted to say "Well don't let my not hopping on this as I had no inkling that I would be having to separate all of our finances and the issues I've had getting this done interfere with your escape plan."

Oh, where is that truck?


----------



## Conrad

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, I hate her now almost as much as mine. It's not the facts, its the tone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like someone who would simply breeze in and out whenever she likes confident that everyone there will be simply delighted because she is just too fabulous for words.


----------



## angelpixie

HappyKaty said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I said he shouldn't be looking towards his future. He has admitted to recently cyberstalking her to "make sure" she doesn't have a dating profile, even though she has told him she wasn't looking to date, yet. So, HOW is it okay for him to window shop, but not her?!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, HK, I said the first part of my post because I really wasn't sure if I had the order of things right. I still don't think I'm totally following you. I wasn't drawing the same links between all of it that you were. 

But, I also don't think the cyberstalking is helpful to Soca at all. It doesn't do anything to help with the detachment process, I agree.


----------



## happyman64

Oh Soca you are too nice.

I do have a smart mouth but that is because I am in sales.

Aren't you?

Here is the appropriate answer for Mrs Smarty Pants.

"I was waiting to see how long it would take you to make the 2nd decision in our life together. 

Sadly, the only other one was to divorce me and breakup our family"

Then walk away.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Oh Soca you are too nice.
> 
> I do have a smart mouth but that is because I am in sales.
> 
> Aren't you?
> 
> Here is the appropriate answer for Mrs Smarty Pants.
> 
> "I was waiting to see how long it would take you to make the 2nd decision in our life together.
> 
> Sadly, the only other one was to divorce me and breakup our family"
> 
> Then walk away.


No I'm not that nice...I asked STBX to help me put on clean sheets on the master bed today (the housekeeper usually helps me but she didn't come today). Since STBX slept in this bed while I was out of town, I asked her if she had changed the sheets. She said no as she didn't have the time. So I said I had to wash them because I didn't want to get crabs. 

Anyway, dinner and movie night. Then STBX zipped over after the boys were asleep to pick up some things and then back. All bent out of shape with me about something which she "does not want to talk about right now". 

I let her know about the issues with the changes and the call I have Monday. Still wouldn't talk about why she's ticked but said it had something to do with "the usual" and with the boys and she's been p****d all day. Really I'm stumped (as I'm usually proactively doing something to inconvenience her). One boy this evening was talking/crying a bit with her about this and I couldn't quite catch it and I asked if it had anything to do with that. And she said I'm not going to tell you about that. I'm thinking the kids have been talking to her about this today and she thinks I've put them up to it. But not sure.


----------



## soca70

Thought about this some more. I'm thinking that STBX is getting angry as now the boys aren't going according to plan either (like father, like son ).

During movie night, I get up to make popcorn and see this piece of paper with "I Hate You" written on it. Of course, I know which one had done that so it's not that far out of the ordinary so I ask the assembled group "Who is this for?" S___ says , "(STBX)." Oh, OK. My other then writes a "nice" note and gives it to STBX to make up for that one from his brother.

And at bedtime tonight, I hear arguing in the other room and STBX comes in and says "S___ wants you to lay with him." Which has been his MO the last few months and now more so after he knows. The last couple of years, he would cry if STBX didn't lay with him first at bedtime, give him a bath. Now he wants me to do all this for him.

Also, boys were asking STBX earlier not to get married again which she responds, "Don't worry. That's never going to happen again" (like being married to me was equivalent to a poke in the eye witha sharp stick ).

Plus the crying from my other one.

So I can see this is very top of mind for the boys today and who knows what was said on thier day-long outing. Looks like STBX will not be getting off easy here with them either. Of course, she's mad at me as this is my fault.


----------



## happyman64

Twins

The good one and the bad one.

I have a twin sister. She is 4'10" tall and has weighed 90lbs since high school.

I am 5'11 and pushing 235lbs.

And my sister was the bad one through high school and college.

So I get the push and pull thing. And their reactions to the divorce
Are quite normal Soca.


Wait till you and your StBX are dating. Then those boys are gonna be doing more judging than American Idol.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Of course, she's mad at me as this is my fault.


Just like the overdraft account.

If we look hard enough, there is a sick twisted way to blame everything on you - including her infertility.

Still getting to you, isn't it?


----------



## Bullwinkle

What did STBX say when you made the comment about the crabs? Mine would have broken a chair over my head like in some Hollywood barroom brawl....


----------



## zillard

Bullwinkle said:


> What did STBX say when you made the comment about the crabs? Mine would have broken a chair over my head like in some Hollywood barroom brawl....


This reminds me of one the many times I nearly got that chair over my head. 

Shortly after X and I became sexually involved I was giving her a big hug one day. I kissed her and whispered in her ear, "Just so you know... I have herpes."

I don't. But dam was it funny to see the look on her face. As soon as I started chuckling the punches to my chest and stomach started. Which made me laugh even harder. 

Sometimes being a d**k can be quite fun.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, Zillard, you took your life in your hands.


----------



## Awakening2012

Dear Soca70 -

All I can say is thank God those boys have you in their lives, so lovingly and solidly -- you are a great Dad who has his priorities straight. You should be proud of how you are handling the inevitable drama. Rooting for you!

Cheers, A-2


----------



## angelpixie

Amen, A12.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> What did STBX say when you made the comment about the crabs? Mine would have broken a chair over my head like in some Hollywood barroom brawl....


"I just had a physical with my new doctor and a complete clean bill of health thank you very much".


----------



## angelpixie

Notice she did NOT say something to the effect of 'And how would I have gotten crabs?' ...Interesting... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> Notice she did NOT say something to the effect of 'And how would I have gotten crabs?' ...Interesting...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She clearly knows.

The hell with the b!tch


----------



## zillard

Bullwinkle said:


> Damn, Zillard, you took your life in your hands.


Curious thing... Bedtime that night was great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

So Sunday night recap...

Yesterday, I hung with the boys until 12:00 PM and STBX took them to lunch and Target to exchange a Lego set the "Easter bunny" brought. I walked the dog over to the groomer for a nail clipping as she was sticking into the utility room rug. I had not been there before so the employees are "How're the kids? How is (STBX)? Don't you guys live a block over?" "Fine, fine. Yes."

While at the groomer, STBX had called me to drop off the boys as they wanted to come home but I had left the phone at the house so she took them shopping some more. Housekeeper comes over. Boys and STBX return. STBX says to me how S____ had been irritating her all day with his behavior. STBX and I do the taxes. We bartered her actually doing all the returns on the TurboTax program with me in exchange for the mirror pick-up. Boys go to bed. STBX goes over to the rental to get clothes for church the next day. One boy is still up and asking how long it takes STBX to get clothes. Wants to call to see when she's coming home. We call and I let him do the talking. On way. 30 minutes later she's back. Son finally relaxes and goes to sleep.

STBX and I end up in a very frank discussion until 1:00 AM. As suspected, the boys had been asking a lot of questions and had expressed concerns about the comments my mother had made last week. Which translated to them that grandma had said that STBX was leaving them. So long conversation about how my mother has been muzzled from now on (but how I was more than willing to let her go on in front of the boys) and how I had ignored the family therapist's advice not to make it look like STBX was leaving and not to bring up specific issues that resulted in the dissolution of our relationship. 

I let her know that I had "debriefed" the boys aftewards and specifically did not "badmouth" her. And I also let her know that S___ had told me that she had told him that the reason she's ending our relationship is that we were fighting (even though he said he never saw that and she said not in front of the two of you). So I had to address this which was an issue she brought up to them first. 

And also how I had said this was not my decision and how STBX would not talk with the therapist to get help. And I said because R___ had asked me why I didn't try harder to get STBX to stay and I said I did but she wasn't willing to talk to anyone (remember the boys have been in behavioral counselling so they know what this is) and I also said that from the very beginning, I have been very upfront about the fact I was going to make it very clear who's decision this was and I did.

And I said "Look they have been getting this impression also from your actions for the last 6 months. Like why does it take you 45 minutes to run over to your place? Or two and a half hours when you go to the gym? This gives them a perception whether you agree with it or not."

So more discussion on schedule, planning, etc. I ask again if she feels she can handle this much time alone on weekends with them for 48 hours as they "irritate' her. Of course, that was an "insulting" comment.

And then on to a relationship rehash where she does apologize to me for some of the things she said (like "cringe") as she felt she was needing to overcompensate to get the point across (my IC said this too) and also trying to sort out her own feelings with some of stream-of-consciousness talking. And how I have taken comments out of context.

And then says her part in this has been that she has allowed me to treat her this way. For example, she has told people that I didn't "allow" her to have a credit card and everyone is in agreement about how controlling and what a jerk I am. I was "What???? Did you give them the FULL story? About how we agreed that since we paid off $15K in credit card debt in 2012 (mine and hers) that we would use just the AmEx for major purchases which has to be paid off timely and cash for everything else? With the goal to be totally debt-free besides the mortgage and your $123K in student loans to free up the cash flow so we can increase the monthly payments on your loan in order to have a schedule that pays that off in 10 years before the boys go to college? That is why we CLOSED the credit cards and agreed to this!!!" At this point, I again realize the gulf of perception here. I can see my errors in the past from Gottman's research that I did not use the "soft approach" to these discussions so maybe her perception was that I wasn't "allowing" these things or "questioning her financial judgment". Oh boy!

On to the future relationship topics...STBX restates no desire for future relationships and a general discussion about "propriety". 

So today, we ended up sleeping in. Going to a movie all together "The Croods 3-D" and a scouting hike for 2 1/2 hours (where we saw bald eagles flying) followed by a dinner out. I knew the boys would enjoy this and they did. Being all together wasn't an issue for me today so that was good too.

Baths, last-minute homework, bedtime as school starts again tomorrow.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Notice she did NOT say something to the effect of 'And how would I have gotten crabs?' ...Interesting...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was dicussed last night and she made very clear that she has not engaged in any activity with anyone as she has fear issues with the idea of new relationships, sexual intimacy, etc. She thought it was kjust a ridiculous statement from paranoid me. I believe her about 75%.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> That was dicussed last night and she made very clear that she has not engaged in any activity with anyone as she has fear issues with the idea of new relationships, sexual intimacy, etc. She thought it was kjust a ridiculous statement from paranoid me. I believe her about 75%.


Soca

I just figured it out.

Your wife is crazy. Not from leaving you.not from breaking up your family.

But from being a lawyer that still has over $120k in school loans.

I hope you reaffirmed that you have no qualms about sexual relationships, sexual intimacy in your future.

I think a new smart woman in your life will make you realize just how much BS you have tolerated for a while now.

But oh no, Soca is so controlling. Yeah, that is comical coming from the Starbucks workaholic.

You just wait until she is out for a few months and the boys settle down. Then you will see the real her.

Kiss her @ss and her issues goodbye.....

Then shag a few ladies that she knows so they can ask her what her problem is because your eqpt. Works just fiiiinnnnneeeeeee!!!!
😈😈😈😈😈

Respectfully,

HM64


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, I continue to be impressed with how you have handled all of this.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, I continue to be impressed with how you have handled all of this.


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> So Sunday night recap...
> 
> Yesterday, I hung with the boys until 12:00 PM and STBX took them to lunch and Target to exchange a Lego set the "Easter bunny" brought. I walked the dog over to the groomer for a nail clipping as she was sticking into the utility room rug. I had not been there before so the employees are "How're the kids? How is (STBX)? Don't you guys live a block over?" "Fine, fine. Yes."
> 
> While at the groomer, STBX had called me to drop off the boys as they wanted to come home but I had left the phone at the house so she took them shopping some more. Housekeeper comes over. Boys and STBX return. STBX says to me how S____ had been irritating her all day with his behavior. STBX and I do the taxes. We bartered her actually doing all the returns on the TurboTax program with me in exchange for the mirror pick-up. Boys go to bed. STBX goes over to the rental to get clothes for church the next day. One boy is still up and asking how long it takes STBX to get clothes. Wants to call to see when she's coming home. We call and I let him do the talking. On way. 30 minutes later she's back. Son finally relaxes and goes to sleep.
> 
> STBX and I end up in a very frank discussion until 1:00 AM. As suspected, the boys had been asking a lot of questions and had expressed concerns about the comments my mother had made last week. Which translated to them that grandma had said that STBX was leaving them. So long conversation about how my mother has been muzzled from now on (but how I was more than willing to let her go on in front of the boys) and how I had ignored the family therapist's advice not to make it look like STBX was leaving and not to bring up specific issues that resulted in the dissolution of our relationship.
> 
> I let her know that I had "debriefed" the boys aftewards and specifically did not "badmouth" her. And I also let her know that S___ had told me that she had told him that the reason she's ending our relationship is that we were fighting (even though he said he never saw that and she said not in front of the two of you). So I had to address this which was an issue she brought up to them first.
> 
> And also how I had said this was not my decision and how STBX would not talk with the therapist to get help. And I said because R___ had asked me why I didn't try harder to get STBX to stay and I said I did but she wasn't willing to talk to anyone (remember the boys have been in behavioral counselling so they know what this is) and I also said that from the very beginning, I have been very upfront about the fact I was going to make it very clear who's decision this was and I did.
> 
> And I said "Look they have been getting this impression also from your actions for the last 6 months. Like why does it take you 45 minutes to run over to your place? Or two and a half hours when you go to the gym? This gives them a perception whether you agree with it or not."
> 
> So more discussion on schedule, planning, etc. I ask again if she feels she can handle this much time alone on weekends with them for 48 hours as they "irritate' her. Of course, that was an "insulting" comment.
> 
> And then on to a relationship rehash where she does apologize to me for some of the things she said (like "cringe") as she felt she was needing to overcompensate to get the point across (my IC said this too) and also trying to sort out her own feelings with some of stream-of-consciousness talking. And how I have taken comments out of context.
> 
> And then says her part in this has been that she has allowed me to treat her this way. For example, she has told people that I didn't "allow" her to have a credit card and everyone is in agreement about how controlling and what a jerk I am. I was "What???? Did you give them the FULL story? About how we agreed that since we paid off $15K in credit card debt in 2012 (mine and hers) that we would use just the AmEx for major purchases which has to be paid off timely and cash for everything else? With the goal to be totally debt-free besides the mortgage and your $123K in student loans to free up the cash flow so we can increase the monthly payments on your loan in order to have a schedule that pays that off in 10 years before the boys go to college? That is why we CLOSED the credit cards and agreed to this!!!" At this point, I again realize the gulf of perception here. I can see my errors in the past from Gottman's research that I did not use the "soft approach" to these discussions so maybe her perception was that I wasn't "allowing" these things or "questioning her financial judgment". Oh boy!
> 
> On to the future relationship topics...STBX restates no desire for future relationships and a general discussion about "propriety".
> 
> So today, we ended up sleeping in. Going to a movie all together "The Croods 3-D" and a scouting hike for 2 1/2 hours (where we saw bald eagles flying) followed by a dinner out. I knew the boys would enjoy this and they did. Being all together wasn't an issue for me today so that was good too.
> 
> Baths, last-minute homework, bedtime as school starts again tomorrow.


wow, is all i can say. this woman is so deluded that she has manipulated her own brain inwards with this credit card and student loan stuff after misleading others about your control issues. these sort of things must have been happening regularly even when you believed you were' happily married'. soon, you will thank her for divorcing you because she cannot have been a great and supportive wife. also, what the hel*, 125K in student loans!! 


I guess one of your sons is more emotional and open with how he feels and is not able to fully control his anxiety and worry. must be a horrible feeling for him and he 'lashes' at her. instead of trying to reassure him and feeling guilty about inflicting that on him, she is whining about him and your mother. she is pretty self absorbed, i imagine
still, i think you are talking too much to her and indulging her more than you should. did you go to the movie as a foursome? that makes life easier for her, i feel. but i guess it makes sense to let things lie till the formal custody arrangements are in place. after that you dont have to play happy families with her or have her in your house.


----------



## angelpixie

I have to agree about doing things as a foursome. I know it makes things more comfortable for your boys, and I know I'd be tempted to do the same thing -- heck, I did for a while. Luckily (as it turns out), Ex didn't want to do that for very long. He was more than happy to drag DS into doing things with his friends.

But your boys are much younger, and I wonder if this is making things even more confusing for them. Do you ask her to do things with you and the boys? Does she just assume? If you ask, how would you feel about _not_ asking her about 1/2 the time you normally would? 

She needs to see she can't cake-eat as Mommy with you and the boys. So far, she hasn't had to.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Curious thing... Bedtime that night was great.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Playful friction stimulates desire


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, I continue to be impressed with how you have handled all of this.


I don't know what's so impressive. All I've done is not stayed in bed...


----------



## soca70

After school today, I took the boys to McDonald's and their first new session of gymnastics for Spring. They started Chess Club at school today which was a big hit also.

Got home, watched some "River Monsters", got ready for bed. My one boy all evening had been asking if STBX was at home, coming home, etc. I said no, not until Wednesday. He wants to call so he does. "Are you sleeping here? No? Aren't you coming over to lay with us when we go to bed? No? You're working?" I put S___ to bed while R____ lays on the floor crying and asking to call STBX again. I say no, we've already called tonight. Maybe I'm naive or out in left field, but there is no excuse for this unless someone is being beaten or cheated on. Hey, but that's just me. STBX doesn't ever have to hear this because the boys know when I'm not home, I'm travelling for business - not choosing to remove myself from them (whatever the reason/excuse/justification).

Earlier today, I reviewed the custody agreement with my attorney, made the tweaks she wanted. I stopped by STBX's rental after the gym to pick up my Ipad I let S____ take in the car to school with STBX. I review the agreement changes with STBX and she shows me the "home improvement" projects she's planning at the rental with wainscoting and paint, etc to cheer that place up some.

STBX is OK with the changes and I say this has to be finalized tomorrow or we're going to court. She had mentioned a continuance last week but I said my attorney won't go for that as we want this settled now. STBX agreed that we can get this done.

A little bit more of rehash of our past interactions and how she knew I had good intentions. And says I know you believe I am what you call a WAS, but I'm not. Now the excuse is our interactions and not the missing fundamentals as she claimed earlier. I say, "I don't think, I know. You're textbook." And she says that she doesn't want us to be like this (tears in eyes now - at least some emotion) and that it didn't have to be this way. I say "Look even the boys know what counselling is for and you didn't try. With what we have riding with them, it's inexcusable to me. What you have done is wrong, and I am having a very hard time letting the boys leave the house and if I could stop it, I would." I was calm, dispassionate, firm and then left.


----------



## angelpixie

I'm sure that was a difficult conversation, Soca, but it sounds like you handled it really well. 

And don't underestimate how impressive it is to get out of bed and take care of things, every single day. There are a lot of folks who don't do that. 

You rock, Soca.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> I'm sure that was a difficult conversation, Soca, but it sounds like you handled it really well.
> 
> And don't underestimate how impressive it is to get out of bed and take care of things, every single day. There are a lot of folks who don't to that.
> 
> You rock, Soca.


Right! 

My X recently went on about how she surprised herself by getting up at 11. 

Once.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, what I'd meant about being impressed with your handling of the situation was your ability to remain so civil with STBXW despite your obvious pain and inner turmoil. Your relationship with yours sounds much less volatile than mine has been and I think that is partly because you recognize your kids need a steady figure in their lives. Again, good on you.


----------



## soca70

Well it's over. After some last minute back and forth today with the lawyers, STBX and I agreed on the custody agreement at 4:30 PM. I had a conference call with my attorney right after lunch to review opposing counsel's changes with my mother as we had just gotten back from lunch and I wanted her to review this with me and the attorney for another "set of eyes". My mother is crying after the call. "I hate what STBX has done to the boys." STBX's last minute revisions opened up a couple of slight advantages for me which we took and gave a drop-dead timeframe of agreement by 5:00 PM or court tomorrow morning. STBX accepted.

I pick up the boys from school and STBX comes over at 6:45 PM with all the paperwork to sign and send to both attorneys via fax and email for my attorney to file tomorrow morning in court. DIscussions on some details and how logistically this will work.

STBX says "Well I'm not happy with this and neither or you so it must be an OK compromise." No "Kum-ba-ya" moments in the soca household. I receive a diatribe about how I have been monopolizing the kids without thought of what's best for them with both parents. I counter with my parents are offering to pay off your student loans if you move back to California. Response:

STBX: "That's offensive."
Soca: "Well, I hope you stick it out for the boys then."
STBX: "You're offensive."
Soca: "We'll see how this plays out. If the boys start having issues, this will be revisited."
STBX" "That goes both ways."

STBX is a seething ball of resentment and anger. I was wondering what I ever saw in her. I'm sure she sees and feels the same about me.

In my mind, I feel like I have kept the family together for 6 months and now it's over. The rest is just formalities. I don't feel any sense of accomplishment or "winning" or closure. I feel resigned and resentful. I know the goal is indifference and "moving on" but this was just so wrong for the boys. No one wanted this except STBX but the reality is I had no chance of turning this around from Day 1.


----------



## angelpixie

Sorry it ended this way for you, Soca. I understand how you feel. A war with no winners. How could there be? 

Even though STBXW got what she wanted in the end, she doesn't realize just how much she's losing. 

Keeping your boys foremost in your mind has shown that you are certainly made of better stuff than she is. When they're older and better able to comprehend things, your boys will realize it, too. 

It will start to get better from this moment forward, a little at a time. Take care tonight, sweetie. ((hugs))


----------



## happyman64

I am not sorry for you Soca, I am happy for you.

I am sorry for your wife.

She is textbook.

She does not deserve you.

And you deserve better from her. I just do not think she is ever going to be capable of making you happy or being part of a family.

She never was part of a functional/loving family growing up nor does she appreciate what a family is or what a family provides for a invested spouse/parent.

And you are right. She never fought for your family.

Why? Because she is selfish.

Sorry you are hurting Soca.

But there are better days to come.

HM64


----------



## zillard

HM is right. 

But let yourself mourn. Don't bottle.

By that I mean mourn the delusion and that future you expected, but was not probable.

Happiness with strong healthy sons still is... because they have you.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: Losing It*



zillard said:


> HM is right.
> 
> But let yourself mourn. Don't bottle.


Agreed. Let it all out tonight.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Well it's over. After some last minute back and forth today with the lawyers, STBX and I agreed on the custody agreement at 4:30 PM. I had a conference call with my attorney right after lunch to review opposing counsel's changes with my mother as we had just gotten back from lunch and I wanted her to review this with me and the attorney for another "set of eyes". My mother is crying after the call. "I hate what STBX has done to the boys." STBX's last minute revisions opened up a couple of slight advantages for me which we took and gave a drop-dead timeframe of agreement by 5:00 PM or court tomorrow morning. STBX accepted.
> 
> I pick up the boys from school and STBX comes over at 6:45 PM with all the paperwork to sign and send to both attorneys via fax and email for my attorney to file tomorrow morning in court. DIscussions on some details and how logistically this will work.
> 
> STBX says "Well I'm not happy with this and neither or you so it must be an OK compromise." No "Kum-ba-ya" moments in the soca household. I receive a diatribe about how I have been monopolizing the kids without thought of what's best for them with both parents. I counter with my parents are offering to pay off your student loans if you move back to California. Response:
> 
> STBX: "That's offensive."
> Soca: "Well, I hope you stick it out for the boys then."
> STBX: "You're offensive."
> Soca: "We'll see how this plays out. If the boys start having issues, this will be revisited."
> STBX" "That goes both ways."
> 
> STBX is a seething ball of resentment and anger. I was wondering what I ever saw in her. I'm sure she sees and feels the same about me.
> 
> In my mind, I feel like I have kept the family together for 6 months and now it's over. The rest is just formalities. I don't feel any sense of accomplishment or "winning" or closure. I feel resigned and resentful. I know the goal is indifference and "moving on" but this was just so wrong for the boys. No one wanted this except STBX but the reality is I had no chance of turning this around from Day 1.


No one could act as she has without being a "seething ball of resentment and anger" the entire time.

Congrats Jim.

Full speed ahead.

Yes... it's time

"The hell with the b!tch"


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> Well it's over. After some last minute back and forth today with the lawyers, STBX and I agreed on the custody agreement at 4:30 PM. I had a conference call with my attorney right after lunch to review opposing counsel's changes with my mother as we had just gotten back from lunch and I wanted her to review this with me and the attorney for another "set of eyes". My mother is crying after the call. "I hate what STBX has done to the boys." STBX's last minute revisions opened up a couple of slight advantages for me which we took and gave a drop-dead timeframe of agreement by 5:00 PM or court tomorrow morning. STBX accepted.
> 
> I pick up the boys from school and STBX comes over at 6:45 PM with all the paperwork to sign and send to both attorneys via fax and email for my attorney to file tomorrow morning in court. DIscussions on some details and how logistically this will work.
> 
> STBX says "Well I'm not happy with this and neither or you so it must be an OK compromise." No "Kum-ba-ya" moments in the soca household. I receive a diatribe about how I have been monopolizing the kids without thought of what's best for them with both parents. I counter with my parents are offering to pay off your student loans if you move back to California. Response:
> 
> STBX: "That's offensive."
> Soca: "Well, I hope you stick it out for the boys then."
> STBX: "You're offensive."
> Soca: "We'll see how this plays out. If the boys start having issues, this will be revisited."
> STBX" "That goes both ways."
> 
> STBX is a seething ball of resentment and anger. I was wondering what I ever saw in her. I'm sure she sees and feels the same about me.
> 
> In my mind, I feel like I have kept the family together for 6 months and now it's over. The rest is just formalities. I don't feel any sense of accomplishment or "winning" or closure. I feel resigned and resentful. I know the goal is indifference and "moving on" but this was just so wrong for the boys. No one wanted this except STBX but the reality is I had no chance of turning this around from Day 1.


In the end, it is very painful. what does she mean when she says she is not happy with it. this is what she wanted, isn't it.this was her purpose. i guess they are just weasel words to make her feel less guilty and act as though it is a joint decision.

the thing is soca, as bad as you feel now, better things are in store for you.


----------



## doureallycare2

That’s the whole thing right? There are no winners in a divorce. Some think they have and will delude themselves into it maybe for their whole life but there is fall out that never had to be there. You lose in a bad marriage and you lose in a divorce, it just depends where the collateral damage would be the least if you have the choice. For those that the choice was taken from them you have to pick up the pieces as best as you can and move on. Yes damage was done but you heal, your children can heal and you can have a better life.


----------



## soca70

catcalls said:


> In the end, it is very painful. what does she mean when she says she is not happy with it. this is what she wanted, isn't it.this was her purpose. i guess they are just weasel words to make her feel less guilty and act as though it is a joint decision.
> 
> the thing is soca, as bad as you feel now, better things are in store for you.


Guys, thanks for all the kind words and support. You have no idea what this means to me to have you here. I truly appreciate you taking the time to read this thread and offer encouragement/advice.

I feel OK today. Got the boys off to school. My lawyer called about some details. STBX brought over a document I had to re-sign and forwarded it for the court filing this morning. Follows up with an email with the plans for the STBXMIL to come into town for Mother's Day and arrange a schedule for the boys while she's here. We both agreed to alternate the weekends to coincide with my niece's weekend schedule so I can take the boys to the lakehouse and they can play with their cousin this summer and other activities throughout the year. We agreed upon me having every 4th of July as there is a big firework show on the lake and I switched off Memorial Day weekend. We've kept this amicable enough for flexibility.

STBX is not happy as this is not the agreement she envisioned. It's not entirely 50/50 nor is it equal on both sides. I played quasi-hardball to force concessions I wanted as safeguards for the future (like final decision-making authority, unconditional relocation). It leans in my favor and she thinks I didn't "play fair". Well I didn't but as I have said repeatedly I'm not the one that started this. STBX feels like I have questioned her parenting commitment and skills, raised concerns about her mental health, questioned her morals, questioned her judgment in decision-making and financial matters. And yes I have. She thinks I have been vindictive, nasty, and uncooperative. And yes I have. But as I remind myself if she thought I was a pain in the a$$ while married, why would I be so fantastic now that I've gotten the boot?

So what next? We will need to transition the boys to the schedule here shortly. I will need to line up sessions at the family therapist and my own IC accordingly. I received confirmation this morning of their Spring Soccer schedule and have begun coordinating already with some of their friend's parents. I need to keep up the gym schedule. I need to determine what treatment option I'm going with for this small pre-cancerous sun damage on my face with the dermatologist. I need to start focusing back on work as we just hired a new President of my division so I'll start seeing some movement again there. And then determine the steps I need to take to start rebuilding.

I'm actually OK. I think I needed 6 months to get to this point. I was thinking back to those first 60 days. I couldn't have done this then.


----------



## Conrad

You hurt her feelings?

Poor baby.


----------



## Awakening2012

catcalls said:


> In the end, it is very painful. what does she mean when she says she is not happy with it. this is what she wanted, isn't it.this was her purpose. i guess they are just weasel words to make her feel less guilty and act as though it is a joint decision.
> 
> the thing is soca, as bad as you feel now, better things are in store for you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

And I know that you are well aware what to do about resentment, right?  

I hope you can now breathe easier having things settled -- though it wasn't the outcome you wanted, you can start healing properly and embracing a new chapter that (when you're ready) will eventually include a loyal, lovely gal who will respect and honor you and your kids (and make you laugh!).

All the best to you, and I hope you continue to keep us posted!

Cheers,- A12


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> And I know that you are well aware what to do about resentment, right?
> 
> I hope you can now breathe easier having things settled -- though it wasn't the outcome you wanted, you can start healing properly and embracing a new chapter that (when you're ready) will eventually include a loyal, lovely gal who will respect and honor you and your kids (and make you laugh!).
> 
> All the best to you, and I hope you continue to keep us posted!
> 
> Cheers,- A12


A12 - thanks for the kind words. For better or worse, I'm not "retiring" from TAM. I've gotten resolution on my major issue but am still sailing in uncharted waters. Frankly, the information and support here is more helpful to me than my IC. I seem to hear "Soca, what do you want?" repeatedly in my sessions. Now what I want is to find someone who I find very attractive, is crazy about me, is financially independent, loves kids, and cooks well. And this person is not going to appear by magic. I haven't been on a date or single in over 13 years so I'm sure that will be a minefield!  Anyway, that's down the road and I need to put my own house in order first.

Today, I've worked (yes I still do) and then went to the gym. While there, I got to thinking I can sit here in resentment and make STBX "pay" by being all hard-a$$ about this visitation schedule or I can start making the best of it for me and the boys. STBX had emailed me earlier about the schedule as STBXMIL will be in town for Mother's Day. 

So I stopped by the rental to discuss with STBX. My mother had let me know she had called STBX today to schedule an "appointment" to visit the rental tomorrow to make sure it was safe for her grandchildren. As suspected, STBX was hesitant about this and I let her know that my mother was not planning on "attacking" her and it may be a good idea to get some kind of relationship going again (and I mentioned my parents might be moving down to this part of town - which may or may not happen but let STBX squirm with that thought ). My mom and I had discussed this earlier today that we will both need to get past this and can't let anger consume us. So I think STBX will agree to this. Interestingly, she was concerned about it not being as nice obviously as our house and I could tell this bothered her. I said "Why do you care? You said material things were not important?" just to get her goat. God, I'm a smart-a$$.

I asked how she felt last night and she said after she left my house, she went to the gym but didn't have the energy to work out so went home and sat on the couch for hours feeling emotionally drained as multiple episodes of "Chopped" rolled on the TV. She said she expected to feel relief but that wasn't the case.

We then talked about the schedule and I'm willing to be very flexible as is STBX. For example, we agreed it would be OK for me to pick up the boys early from daycare this summer on a day that is "hers" if I want to take them to the pool for a few hours and drop them back off by 5:30 PM or 6:00 PM. This kind of arrangement will work out for everyone as I can see and do things with the boys on "off" days and STBX can have the evening with them. Of course, I will need this to work both ways. In reality, we've done this "shifting" their entire lives so it won't be that different for them. We both agreed on the schedule that the 5 day stretch will not work for anyone and I reiterated that we set that up for a "minimum".

STBX has an appt with the family therapist Friday so I suggested she discuss this arrangement and also if we occasionally do things with all 4 of us will that be confusing. 

After this, STBX asked me to help pick out some on-line art prints of airplanes for the boys' room. I also find it interesting that she still wants my input and approval on some of this stuff. 

She is sitting on the couch and then tells me about some ongoing pain near her groin which she jokes could be cancer (but she is a little bit of a hypochondriac so I can tell she's concerned) or that it could be a hernia or a strain. And then asks me to see if I feel anything and then pulls her shorts down some and puts my hand down them. I'm thinking "this is like some sort of porno". Unfortunately STBX is no Frostine and I can tell this is not going any further so I say "well if it keeps hurting for a week, go see the doctor."

Anyway, STBX picked the boys up from school, stopped by Noodles and Co which S___ has wanted all week, and is having dinner over there. They are coming home at 7:30. STBX and I discussed the permanent "move-out" which will probably be next Wed.

I felt better today as I think we can make this work for the boys as well as both of us. I still would love to be a d**k but that's not going to be productive in the long run.


----------



## Conrad

As I read this, it sounds like she's going to continue breezing in and out of your life on your days.

You hate that. It's a #3 for you. Yet, you're inviting it.


----------



## soca70

Conrad - we both agreed that any change to the schedule would need to be discussed first but we're both open to flexibility. If it works, good. If not, well OK. Really this is more for me as her schedule does not permit the amount of time that I can spend with the boys especially during the day.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Conrad - we both agreed that any change to the schedule would need to be discussed first but we're both open to flexibility. If it works, good. If not, well OK. Really this is more for me as her schedule does not permit the amount of time that I can spend with the boys especially during the day.


I like the idea of her being out of the picture and you building a life.


----------



## soca70

Yes well since my generous offers of relocation back to Los Angeles were rebuffed, being out of the picture is not going to happen. The rental is right around the corner and we live in a very small community. And the reality is that STBX, I, or the boys want to go 5 days without seeing the "off" parent. So I've got to work this accordingly. I will be doing the "internal monitoring" if what I'm doing is a #3 and making adjustments if needed. At this point, I don't know.

However, I do agree with you on building a life. The last 6 months I have not been able to do much in that regard as I had the boys every day/night unless I was out of town for work. Now that we have this schedule in place, I will have the time to start working towards that goal.


----------



## Conrad

I'll just say this, her "pop-ins" would bother the crap out of me.

Her idea of "working together" is identical to "her way"


----------



## angelpixie

You have to work with what you've got, Soca, and it sounds like you're making a good start. Seeing your boys every day (or close to it) will necessitate seeing STBXW more often than you want, but take it from me, it's worth it. And as time has gone on, interactions between the Ex and me are very minimal. No need to discuss anything except what goes on with DS. It can be done. She won't like being shut down, but oh well, sucks to be her.

ETA: There's no reason you can't establish boundaries as far as when and under what circumstances she can come in the house. It's not being a d!ck. It's _your_ house now.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> A12 - thanks for the kind words. For better or worse, I'm not "retiring" from TAM. I've gotten resolution on my major issue but am still sailing in uncharted waters. Frankly, the information and support here is more helpful to me than my IC. I seem to hear "Soca, what do you want?" repeatedly in my sessions. Now what I want is to find someone who I find very attractive, is crazy about me, is financially independent, loves kids, and cooks well. And this person is not going to appear by magic. I haven't been on a date or single in over 13 years so I'm sure that will be a minefield!  Anyway, that's down the road and I need to put my own house in order first.
> 
> Today, I've worked (yes I still do) and then went to the gym. While there, I got to thinking I can sit here in resentment and make STBX "pay" by being all hard-a$$ about this visitation schedule or I can start making the best of it for me and the boys. STBX had emailed me earlier about the schedule as STBXMIL will be in town for Mother's Day.
> 
> So I stopped by the rental to discuss with STBX. My mother had let me know she had called STBX today to schedule an "appointment" to visit the rental tomorrow to make sure it was safe for her grandchildren. As suspected, STBX was hesitant about this and I let her know that my mother was not planning on "attacking" her and it may be a good idea to get some kind of relationship going again (and I mentioned my parents might be moving down to this part of town - which may or may not happen but let STBX squirm with that thought ). My mom and I had discussed this earlier today that we will both need to get past this and can't let anger consume us. So I think STBX will agree to this. Interestingly, she was concerned about it not being as nice obviously as our house and I could tell this bothered her. I said "Why do you care? You said material things were not important?" just to get her goat. God, I'm a smart-a$$.
> 
> I asked how she felt last night and she said after she left my house, she went to the gym but didn't have the energy to work out so went home and sat on the couch for hours feeling emotionally drained as multiple episodes of "Chopped" rolled on the TV. She said she expected to feel relief but that wasn't the case.
> 
> We then talked about the schedule and I'm willing to be very flexible as is STBX. For example, we agreed it would be OK for me to pick up the boys early from daycare this summer on a day that is "hers" if I want to take them to the pool for a few hours and drop them back off by 5:30 PM or 6:00 PM. This kind of arrangement will work out for everyone as I can see and do things with the boys on "off" days and STBX can have the evening with them. Of course, I will need this to work both ways. In reality, we've done this "shifting" their entire lives so it won't be that different for them. We both agreed on the schedule that the 5 day stretch will not work for anyone and I reiterated that we set that up for a "minimum".
> 
> STBX has an appt with the family therapist Friday so I suggested she discuss this arrangement and also if we occasionally do things with all 4 of us will that be confusing.
> 
> After this, STBX asked me to help pick out some on-line art prints of airplanes for the boys' room. I also find it interesting that she still wants my input and approval on some of this stuff.
> 
> She is sitting on the couch and then tells me about some ongoing pain near her groin which she jokes could be cancer (but she is a little bit of a hypochondriac so I can tell she's concerned) or that it could be a hernia or a strain. And then asks me to see if I feel anything and then pulls her shorts down some and puts my hand down them. I'm thinking "this is like some sort of porno". Unfortunately STBX is no Frostine and I can tell this is not going any further so I say "well if it keeps hurting for a week, go see the doctor."
> 
> Anyway, STBX picked the boys up from school, stopped by Noodles and Co which S___ has wanted all week, and is having dinner over there. They are coming home at 7:30. STBX and I discussed the permanent "move-out" which will probably be next Wed.
> 
> I felt better today as I think we can make this work for the boys as well as both of us. I still would love to be a d**k but that's not going to be productive in the long run.


You should have told your STBXW the pain was her balls hurting after you kicked them a few times.


----------



## happyman64

Conrad said:


> I'll just say this, her "pop-ins" would bother the crap out of me.
> 
> Her idea of "working together" is identical to "her way"


Mark my words.

In time her pop-ins will decrease.

Once she starts her new single life.

You'll see.

Such as life my friends.......


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, my friend, You are doing great with the hand you've been dealt. I would be yelling and screaming and making all those terrible TAM no no's. 

Looking back, I wish I'd acted more like you.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, my friend, You are doing great with the hand you've been dealt. I would be yelling and screaming and making all those terrible TAM no no's.
> 
> Looking back, I wish I'd acted more like you.


BW - thanks for the comments. However, that made me laugh this last line. As I told my IC "If this is doing well, I'd hate to see doing badly." At least your STBX responded to your actions, mine not so much. I feel like I've been all over the board. The one thing I know I did right was not to leave the house and not to let the boys leave either. Now you are in the same position as I was so make sure you take advantage of it.

So speaking of all over the board, STBX and I got the boys off to school. I had lunch with my parents. Parents were strongly pushing for me to force STBX out the door immediately now that custody agreement is signed. I was accused of playing "Kum-ba-ya" too much and we need the physical separation to move on. 

I responded that I agreed with that obviously but wanted to pace this over the next week for the best transition for the boys which I think would be next Wed/Thur. I let them know I want to be flexible and amicable here so as to maximize my time with the boys even on off days. They seem leery of this that STBX will be using me at her convenience but I said that's a two-way street. I won't inconvenience myself to accomodate her (no #3's) but if I can take advantage of her schedule for my relationship with my kids, I will do so. Really, I'm going to have to play this by ear as I have no idea.

Since work was slow today, I ran some errands with my mother and she wanted to go to a consignment shop for a small piece of furniture. I picked up a really cool set of plates with these black and white Art Deco arhitectural drawings of landmarks like the Chrysler Building, the Eiffel Tower, Leaning Tower of Pisa. I thought the boys would think they are really interesting. My mom said I could use them for future entertaining (which unfortunately was one of STBX's fortes).

Picked the boys up from school a little early with my mom and we were going out to dinner. STBX calls on the bluetooth in the car to let me know she was picking them up today which I said I had them and you are on speaker. Boys were begging to see STBX so my mom asked them to invite her to join us. Which she did. She looked somewhat uncomfortable (as she should since her last words to my mom was "F*** you") but the boys were ecstatic to see her. After dinner, I drove my mom home and STBX took the boys.

My mom let me know her reasoning for inviting STBX. She said that the boys are now unsure of STBX and are almost desperate to know where she is. And if they had to choose between dinner with us and going home to STBX, we'd be kicked to the curb since we're the "old reliables". So to avoid that, she had them ask STBX to come along. 

when I got home, the boys were about to go to bed. S___ told me R____ had been crying as I wasn't there and he wasn't sure if I was sleeping here tonight. I said "Sweetie, I'm sleeping here every night." They got to sleep and STBX let me know S___ was a holy terror at bath and bed. I was thinking he's been much better with me and I think he's acting out towards her but kept my thoughts to myself.


----------



## angelpixie

Your mom sounds like she read things right with dinner tonight. It will be a learning process with seeing the boys on the 'off' time. Nobody says you have to get it right immediately. This situation is in flux; neither of you have done this exact thing before. Just as long as you're looking out for yourself, cut yourself some slack while you're figuring it out. 

BTW, DS did some of the same stuff with Ex as S is doing with your STBXW. He called me a couple of times to ask what 'we' were going to do about DS' behavior issues. I wasn't having any. Which made Ex upset. 

Also, the plates sound cool. Good find. :smthumbup:


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Your plan is solid.

Keep it amicable.

For your boys.

HM64


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> BW - thanks for the comments. However, that made me laugh this last line. As I told my IC "If this is doing well, I'd hate to see doing badly." At least your STBX responded to your actions, mine not so much. I feel like I've been all over the board. The one thing I know I did right was not to leave the house and not to let the boys leave either. Now you are in the same position as I was so make sure you take advantage of it.
> 
> So speaking of all over the board, STBX and I got the boys off to school. I had lunch with my parents. Parents were strongly pushing for me to force STBX out the door immediately now that custody agreement is signed. I was accused of playing "Kum-ba-ya" too much and we need the physical separation to move on.
> 
> I responded that I agreed with that obviously but wanted to pace this over the next week for the best transition for the boys which I think would be next Wed/Thur. I let them know I want to be flexible and amicable here so as to maximize my time with the boys even on off days. They seem leery of this that STBX will be using me at her convenience but I said that's a two-way street. I won't inconvenience myself to accomodate her (no #3's) but if I can take advantage of her schedule for my relationship with my kids, I will do so. Really, I'm going to have to play this by ear as I have no idea.
> 
> Since work was slow today, I ran some errands with my mother and she wanted to go to a consignment shop for a small piece of furniture. I picked up a really cool set of plates with these black and white Art Deco arhitectural drawings of landmarks like the Chrysler Building, the Eiffel Tower, Leaning Tower of Pisa. I thought the boys would think they are really interesting. My mom said I could use them for future entertaining (which unfortunately was one of STBX's fortes).
> 
> Picked the boys up from school a little early with my mom and we were going out to dinner. STBX calls on the bluetooth in the car to let me know she was picking them up today which I said I had them and you are on speaker. Boys were begging to see STBX so my mom asked them to invite her to join us. Which she did. She looked somewhat uncomfortable (as she should since her last words to my mom was "F*** you") but the boys were ecstatic to see her. After dinner, I drove my mom home and STBX took the boys.
> 
> My mom let me know her reasoning for inviting STBX. She said that the boys are now unsure of STBX and are almost desperate to know where she is. And if they had to choose between dinner with us and going home to STBX, we'd be kicked to the curb since we're the "old reliables". So to avoid that, she had them ask STBX to come along.
> 
> when I got home, the boys were about to go to bed. S___ told me R____ had been crying as I wasn't there and he wasn't sure if I was sleeping here tonight. I said "Sweetie, I'm sleeping here every night." They got to sleep and STBX let me know S___ was a holy terror at bath and bed. I was thinking he's been much better with me and I think he's acting out towards her but kept my thoughts to myself.


Your ex-wife is a sociopath.

Any infertile woman who has her husband pay for IVF and walks out.....

You fill in the blanks.

Good luck to her.

She needs it.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Your ex-wife is a sociopath.
> 
> Any infertile woman who has her husband pay for IVF and walks out.....
> 
> You fill in the blanks.
> 
> Good luck to her.
> 
> She needs it.


Conrad, I don't think a sociopath. I think as HM indicated earlier, she has no firm concept of family and family commitments and is disdainful of me expecting a "perfect nuclear family". Her parents have 6 marriages between the two of them.

This morning, we discussed the timeframe and she is moving out permanently today to begin the schedule so I have the boys until Wednesday. She asked if she could take the boys to a birthday party on Monday for friends of ours' son that moved out-of-state a year and a half ago. It conflicts with their gymnastics and I didn't know about this in advance and the boys don't like their son. Allowing this would be a #3 for me so I will decline this. I want the boys on a consistent schedule with activities and if there is a commitment made, it needs to be followed through on.

Feeling somewhat down this morning. I saw where HappyKaty may be signing off on TAM, AngelPixie may be slowing down on here, Orpheus signed off. I know people have to move on, but it still saddens me. We have all been thrown into this horrible crucible together (and usually not by choice) and seeing people "out there" making it through has been a bright spot for me during this.


----------



## angelpixie

Hey, Soca -- saw your post this morning. I know how you feel about the changes around here. But please don't stop posting. There are still plenty of folks around (and FWIW, I'm not gone, as you know from the Song Title game, lol). Hey -- that's a suggestion -- check out some of the Social Spot threads, too. When things started getting too heavy over here for me, I started going over there, and it's just silly stuff, but sometimes, laughter is a good therapy. 

And good for you for standing up on the birthday party issue -- in wanting to keep a schedule, and realizing that your boys don't like the son.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Hey, Soca -- saw your post this morning. I know how you feel about the changes around here. But please don't stop posting. There are still plenty of folks around (and FWIW, I'm not gone, as you know from the Song Title game, lol). Hey -- that's a suggestion -- check out some of the Social Spot threads, too. When things started getting too heavy over here for me, I started going over there, and it's just silly stuff, but sometimes, laughter is a good therapy.
> 
> And good for you for standing up on the birthday party issue -- in wanting to keep a schedule, and realizing that your boys don't like the son.


Thanks, AP, for sticking with me! We'll always have the Song Title game!

I have a bit of the feeling like it may get a little worse before it gets better as I drift on my little raft here through this next transition. Now, I have to start taking proactive measures for myself since X is out of the picture here.

I was accidentally copied on a text from her to one of our mutual friends asking about lunch today (the one with cancer but just had a successful operation). So I know I've got to start putting myself out there as well. I've always struggled with that a bit and I don't have any real single friends here to "pal around" with. 

So the short-term action this weekend will be to start looking for something like meetups, etc and determining what would be most productive. Also, just staying the course with the boys. I will try to schedule some playdates or some kind of fun activity, etc.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Feeling somewhat down this morning. I saw where HappyKaty may be signing off on TAM, AngelPixie may be slowing down on here, Orpheus signed off. I know people have to move on, but it still saddens me. We have all been thrown into this horrible crucible together (and usually not by choice) and seeing people "out there" making it through has been a bright spot for me during this.


Chin up, Soca, you are doing so great -- and the move-out is finally happening! Once you settle into the new routine and are better able to start building your own new chapter, I am sure you will feel much, much better.

I feel the same way about the crucible of TAM  Having a place to share the ups and downs and get supportive feedback to walk through this difficult time has been so indispensible. Glad you will be sticking around, your contributions are much appreciated!

Cheers,- A12


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Thanks, AP, for sticking with me! We'll always have the Song Title game!
> 
> I have a bit of the feeling like it may get a little worse before it gets better as I drift on my little raft here through this next transition. Now, I have to start taking proactive measures for myself since X is out of the picture here.
> 
> I was accidentally copied on a text from her to one of our mutual friends asking about lunch today (the one with cancer but just had a successful operation). So I know I've got to start putting myself out there as well. I've always struggled with that a bit and I don't have any real single friends here to "pal around" with.
> 
> So the short-term action this weekend will be to start looking for something like meetups, etc and determining what would be most productive. Also, just staying the course with the boys. I will try to schedule some playdates or some kind of fun activity, etc.


I like this a lot!


----------



## Odaat

Soca, you're W's parents have 6 marriages between them? That is almost my W's story, her father has been married 5 times and her mother has been married twice.

I hope this finds you feeling better. 

Maybe in however many months your thread, or Awakenings, or whoever else, will be the 100+ pagers/top of the board-ers that I've been sifting through and that have helped me not feel so alone or, well, crazy.

Maybe the only thing constant is change?


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## zillard

Odaat said:


> Maybe the only thing constant is change?


If we can embrace that without fear... we're doing great!


----------



## zillard

"When we eliminate our expectations as to how the future ought to be a continuation of the past, we guarantee ourselves more peace of mind."


----------



## soca70

Boys are at a monthly kids night event at school so no Movie Night tonight. I had dinner with them after school and dropped them back off. Enjoying (?) my first night of freedom from X. Will be picking them up in about 45 mins.

Even though it is "my" weekend, I asked X if she would want to take the boys tomorrow to the diner they usually go to on Saturday mornings and she agreed. I plan on doing yardwork which I usually do on Saturday mornings while they are at the diner. That works for all of us so why change it?

Will need to go into detail about XGF that I mentioned on BW's thread. That's a long story and will require a detailed post and I want to think about it. We talked this afternoon as we usually do about once a week. XGF lives in San Diego.

Went through match.com with a critical eye () and favorited 13 profiles. I can feel myself getting ready to maybe start dating if possible. I've spent the last 6 months being looked at like dog poop on a shoe so it would be a refreshing change to at least have some nice conversation. Not expecting anything but maybe a good way to "get out there" some. I'm setting May 15 as a goal so I will take the steps necessary to feel the best I can by then (teeth whitening here I come! ). I haven't been on a date for 13 years but I do a lot of business entertaining and am a pretty good conversationalist so it shouldn't be that bad. I may have another opinion in several weeks though .

Tonight, I feel the absence of my X which in a way feels like a lifted burden but at the same time somewhat melancholy. As to be expected I think.


----------



## doureallycare2

Odaatt & Zillard, I think you just hit the nail right on the head for me. I thingk I was so afraid of change that I was not about to let go of a horrible marriage. Fear has left me stagnet my whole life I think. Which is funny because I come across a very strong person to those that know me. In fact I always thought I was strong, look at what Ive been though and i held up right? in actual fact Ive probably been through it because of my fear to move on and change.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sorry your evening was melancholy, Soca. 

But now you've got us curious about this XGF out in San Diego. And your mention of smashing dishes and growing full beers against a wall - wasting good beer, now THAT's Alcohol abuse.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Tonight, I feel the absence of my X which in a way feels like a lifted burden but at the same time somewhat melancholy. As to be expected I think.


Ugh.. I was right there with you last night. Got home late from worki looking forward to not having any plans for a change on a friday night, as I cooked dinner for my self it started, the lonliness and memories. The thoughts of what I thought I had (notice I dont say what was-because that was a lie) I actually almost started to cry. to pull myself out of it I strated working on some papers my lawyer gave me that should have been done over almost two months ago... (now thats depressing). but it actually worked.. 2 1/2 hours latter I was fed up and was able to put it all away and enjoy a couple of episodes of season 3 of the walking dead (trying to get caught up). Its still hard for me too though.. I miss him.


----------



## soca70

Well the first day of the move-out did not get off to a rousing start.

X comes over this morning as planned to pick up the boys. Everyone is dragging so we all hang out for an hour. They leave for brunch (at this point) and I proceed to get out and work in the yard and start the spring clean-up.

While working on some hydrangeas, I end up nearly cutting the tip of one of my fingers almost off with the pruning shears. After trying to staunch the bleeding for over half and hour unsucessfully, I manage to drive over to urgent care. I end up with my middle finger on my left hand taped up, heavily bandaged, a tetanus shot, and a 10 day dose of antibiotics.

I swing over to the rental where X and the boys are and let them know what happened. Boys think I've cut my finger off and want the details of the shot. I had vowed not to step foot in that rental while the boys were there but that went by the wayside. We all ended up hanging out for another hour. 

I asked X if she could watch the boys for about 2 hours while I got myself cleaned up, got something to eat, etc and she agreed. I also asked if she could come over tonight around 7:30 or 8:00 to give them baths because I can't get my left hand wet for a couple of days. She was amenable to that also.

So boys came back over, we played the Angry Birds Star Wars table game, Legos, etc. Had pizza and Movie Night. X comes back over for baths and bedtime with some ice cream that I had requested then heads back over for the home projects she's working on.

So not much different than our usual life in some ways. Good news is that I'm noticing not quite indifference on my part but something akin to that now.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Well the first day of the move-out did not get off to a rousing start.
> 
> X comes over this morning as planned to pick up the boys. Everyone is dragging so we all hang out for an hour. They leave for brunch (at this point) and I proceed to get out and work in the yard and start the spring clean-up.
> 
> While working on some hydrangeas, I end up nearly cutting the tip of one of my fingers almost off with the pruning shears. After trying to staunch the bleeding for over half and hour unsucessfully, I manage to drive over to urgent care. I end up with my middle finger on my left hand taped up, heavily bandaged, a tetanus shot, and a 10 day dose of antibiotics.
> 
> I swing over to the rental where X and the boys are and let them know what happened. Boys think I've cut my finger off and want the details of the shot. I had vowed not to step foot in that rental while the boys were there but that went by the wayside. We all ended up hanging out for another hour.
> 
> I asked X if she could watch the boys for about 2 hours while I got myself cleaned up, got something to eat, etc and she agreed. I also asked if she could come over tonight around 7:30 or 8:00 to give them baths because I can't get my left hand wet for a couple of days. She was amenable to that also.
> 
> So boys came back over, we played the Angry Birds Star Wars table game, Legos, etc. Had pizza and Movie Night. X comes back over for baths and bedtime with some ice cream that I had requested then heads back over for the home projects she's working on.
> 
> So not much different than our usual life in some ways. Good news is that I'm noticing not quite indifference on my part but something akin to that now.


Better your finger than your middle leg!!!

Be careful Soca.....


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Better your finger than your middle leg!!!
> 
> Be careful Soca.....


Speaking of middle legs, I got some details about the after-effects about that friend who had his prostate removed recently due to cancer. I can say I definitely will trade a finger in lieu of something like that.


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## Nsweet

You wanna know what you're doing wrong? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! From where I stand I see you're at a place a lot of the stbx's want to be. Your stbxw finally respects you isn't trying to make your life miserable, but goes out of her way to help you coparent. You're finally at tha place where you can life without her. You're going to find someone better soon. Chin up, Soca!


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## angelpixie

OMG, Soca -- what a day! I hope the hydrangeas made it OK. 

Somehow no matter how we try to plan these things so precisely, things often happen that throw all those plans up in the air. I'm glad you two were able to work things out. Sounds like she had at least a little compassion for you in that she did come over and help with the boys. Bully for her, she's a little human. 

And once again, you show what a great dad you are, playing games and Legos, etc., with the boys. There's a guy I know who would have gone to bed. Until the bandages came off. They are really lucky to have you.

Take it easy tomorrow, sweetie.


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## Awakening2012

doureallycare2 said:


> 2 1/2 hours latter I was fed up and was able to put it all away and enjoy a couple of episodes of season 3 of the walking dead (trying to get caught up).


The Walking Dead is awesome! Best zombie drama series ever!

:smthumbup:


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## doureallycare2

Awakening2012 said:


> The Walking Dead is awesome! Best zombie drama series ever!
> 
> :smthumbup:


Loving it!! Im a late bloomer, just started watching last month and I only have about 8 eps left I think until Im done.


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## soca70

Guys - thanks for the encouragement. A12 and DYRC, one of my kids is really into this "Zombies vs Flowers" Nintendo game. X just bought him a T-shirt yesterday witha Zombie cartoon t-shirt.

I can relate, I felt like a zombie for 3 months! 

Today, hung out with the boys all morning. My parents came over and my mom and I went to brunch with the boys (X checked in while we were there). Due to my hand, my dad helped me with the yard clean-up. Weather was great. Back doors open, kids just messing around, very pleasant.

Since my parents were there I was able to run off and switch out a propane tank for the grill and get the grocery shopping done. Ran into several of the boys' friends parents at the store. Came back and had a little grill-out on the outdoor deck. I did "this and that" home projects since Spring is here getting ready for the warm weather.

My dad was engrossed in the Master's so they stayed after dinner, I had the boys do homework, and my mom helped me put them to bed. My one boy was telling my mom about X's "mini-house". 

My parents left and I finally have some a little downtime. Very nice day.


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## Bullwinkle

Glad you had a good day, SoCa. Maybe you don't feel it but I see real progress eking out of your thread....


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## doureallycare2

So glad you had a good day!! How nice it is when we can say our "new kind of normal" seems to be working out and we have a good day..


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## soca70

This stuff seems so 2 steps forward, 1 step back...

So this morning, I had thought about that b-day party tonight and I hadn't seen these friends of ours in over a year. X had texted me last night and this morning about if the boys could go. So I called and said I could take them and we could go togther. And then X informs that since all that has happened, they do not want to see me (of course, I haven't spoken to them as they now live in out-of-state) Well ok thenn. So I said I'd think about it.

And thn we go into the schedule for Mother's Day. XMIL is flying out Wed thru Sun of that week and X has planned an out-of-town one-night trip to Michigan to see MIL's sister, ect and can bring the boys back to me on Sunday. Oh and by the way, this was your weekend so I'm hoping you can be flexible and will trade off the next weekend. With a follow up email I'm assuming for "documentation".

So I followed up with an email of mine being flexible to a degree and allowing the use of one of "my" days/nights in exchange for this coming weekend so I can start soccer with them and get the well-check doctor's visits done by one person this week (me). And expressed concern about "after the fact" plans that conflict with previously committed activities (like soccer on Saturday mornings). 

And also noted that I would be taking the boys to gymnastics as originally scheduled tonight.

Haven't heard back yet but X needs to start clearing things with me first instead of working off assumptions. I'm sure I'll get a "nasty-gram".


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Haven't heard back yet but X needs to start clearing things with me first instead of working off assumptions. I'm sure I'll get a "nasty-gram".


We're still stumbling on that respect thing, aren't we?


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## soca70

Conrad said:


> We're still stumbling on that respect thing, aren't we?


I think it's just the assumption. Well if I want to do it, he'll need to make arrangements to accommodate me. If I get the nasty-gram, I will remind X that I'm not the one that ceded 50%of my kids' lives so I'm under no obligation to honor 100% of her plans with them accordingly.

I'm giving some as I would want some flexibility in return but I think some boundaries are in order.


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## Bullwinkle

Well put, SoCa.


----------



## soca70

I got to thinking about these plans more (yes I know I shouldn't). And I see where X has agreed to MIL to drive 3 hours on Friday after school to Michigan and then 3 hours back on Saturday with the boys to visit MIL's sister who is in a nursing home (who we saw once maybe 3 years ago). MIL found a waterpark hotel for them to stay but with the timeframe, the boys will have about 3 hours to play (open until 9 PM) including a dinner.

So the majority of MIL's time with the boys will be in the car and at a nursing home as they are in school Thur and Fri. And MIL leaves Sunday. Fantastic quality time. I'm sure this wasn't X's idea but will do anything to accommodate the parents (at the expense of everyone else).

I'm glad I don't have to be the one pointing out how crappy they really are regarding their priorities anymore as I think it will become self-evident.


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## soca70

Just got the word the Michigan trip is cancelled as X had forgotten about soccer until I sent the reminder notice.


----------



## wilderness

Hey man- 

I read almost your entire story over 2 days. I've felt at various times furious, heartbroken, hopeful, and disgusted at the actions of your wife. It really is a shame that someone could so callously throw away a nice family for absolutely nothing. Just disgraceful.

One thing that I don't get- where has your church been throughout this whole thing? Do you belong to a Christian church? At minimum, she should be bounced from the board of directors. But let's face it, her actions are so horrible that she probably be kicked out.

The only other thing I have to say is that I wouldn't 'play her game' at all in the future. Her game is to play the victim and even dignifying most of the nonsense she spews concerning you being controlling or a bad husband or this or that or that or this is just feeding into her pathology. I'd respond to any such nonsense with something along these lines:

"You are deliberately harming your own children and this is your fault. Everything else is just noise."


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> I think it's just the assumption. Well if I want to do it, he'll need to make arrangements to accommodate me. If I get the nasty-gram, I will remind X that I'm not the one that ceded 50%of my kids' lives so I'm under no obligation to honor 100% of her plans with them accordingly.
> 
> I'm giving some as I would want some flexibility in return but I think some boundaries are in order.


Oh and when you send that email copy your friends that don't want to see you by accident. 

The truth will set you free.

I am famous for my accidental emails and texts. 

But hey the truth hurts sometimes.

HM64


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> This stuff seems so 2 steps forward, 1 step back...
> 
> So this morning, I had thought about that b-day party tonight and I hadn't seen these friends of ours in over a year. X had texted me last night and this morning about if the boys could go. So I called and said I could take them and we could go togther. And then X informs that since all that has happened, they do not want to see me (of course, I haven't spoken to them as they now live in out-of-state) Well ok thenn. So I said I'd think about it.





soca70 said:


> Well if I want to do it, he'll need to make arrangements to accommodate me. If I get the nasty-gram, I will remind X that I'm not the one that ceded 50%of my kids' lives so I'm under no obligation to honor 100% of her plans with them accordingly.
> 
> I'm giving some as I would want some flexibility in return but I think some boundaries are in order.





happyman64 said:


> Oh and when you send that email copy your friends that don't want to see you by accident.
> 
> HM64


It actually made me angry on your behalf to read that! The nerve of your stbxw even saying something like that. What she should have done was explained to the "friends" that it would be up to you if you wanted to "take" them there or not!! I go to my XSIL (brothers xw) all the time to see my nieces and nephews and have even taken them out of state on vacations with me. Who does this friend think they are or your stbxw that they can dictate those kinds of terms? Either they want to see your children or not?


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## soca70

Interesting rest of the day. I'm playing this by ear now so I could get 2X4's or "atta boys" or "WTH?'s".

So I call X back about the schedule as I received a multi-paragraph email after a missed call regarding scheduling which was making my head spin. Michigan trip was cancelled as it conflicts with the the last day of soccer (is it?) so I say let's just see if also that Saturday night for MIL would work or not as we get closer. I was thinking Mother's Day was the weekend after next so I was off. 

I also let X know that if our friends don't want to see me, she can let them know they won't be seeing my kids either.

OK - we're squared away now and X asks that I seem somewhat "cold" on the phone after being so friendly this weekend (still doesn't quite understand why I would be - amazing). I say "Look, I don't know what you've been telling people but that needs to stop." Which was responded to by:

X: "Well, you said yourself actions have consequences and now you know how I feel when you went and talked to the minister, so-and-so, etc." 

Soca: "Yes but I owned my part. Saying your only mistake was you allowed yourself to be treated this way by me is not what I would call owning yours plus what I have said is the truth unlike that credit card story."

X: "Again, a statement taken out of context as I have admitted my mistakes (I missed this memo). Plus the credit card story is true from my perspective (enter Conrad)."

Soca: "OK, the fact is that we don't need all of this out there. If I start getting weird vibes at church or in town, I will be making some changes like switching churches or the option of just up and moving. So for the boys' benefit, let's just keep this stuff high level and no badmouthing."

X: "Agreed."

Then I went to the gym, came home, worked a bit, and then scheduled an IC and the dermatology laser light treatment for 4/30 which requires me to be INSIDE for 48 HOURS without any exposure to sunlight. So I call X and say what's the schedule for 4/30-5/2 and we have split days so I said "Can you please take my Tue as I cannot leave the house to drive them to school but bring them over for dinner?" "Sure, no problem."

I headed off to pick up the boys for gymnastics. On the way to school, I called X to see if she would like to come over for baths/bedtime as boys' were missing her and these multiple stretches are a bit much for everyone I think to not be in contact. She's finishing up with the electrician but says she'll be by around 7:45 PM. X comes over, bath, bed and leaves at 9:30 PM.

OK - so maybe some 2X4s but the reality is I do not want to be going 5 days without seeing my kids either and I know the boys don't which I let X know so if we can work in times for bath/bed/reading for the other, I'm not having a problem with that. The agreement gave us the base structure, safeguards and I'm willing to ad lib some of this to see how it goes as I think it will be best for the kids.


----------



## soca70

wilderness said:


> Hey man-
> 
> I read almost your entire story over 2 days. I've felt at various times furious, heartbroken, hopeful, and disgusted at the actions of your wife. It really is a shame that someone could so callously throw away a nice family for absolutely nothing. Just disgraceful.
> 
> One thing that I don't get- where has your church been throughout this whole thing? Do you belong to a Christian church? At minimum, she should be bounced from the board of directors. But let's face it, her actions are so horrible that she probably be kicked out.
> 
> The only other thing I have to say is that I wouldn't 'play her game' at all in the future. Her game is to play the victim and even dignifying most of the nonsense she spews concerning you being controlling or a bad husband or this or that or that or this is just feeding into her pathology. I'd respond to any such nonsense with something along these lines:
> 
> "You are deliberately harming your own children and this is your fault. Everything else is just noise."


Wilderness, thanks for the preserverance in reading this sorry tale or woe. I hope you were able to get something out of it and I appreciate you taking the time.

In reagrds to the church, there has been no change of status for X. I guess it's not scandalous enough for the Methodist church unless there's some infidelity, abuse, etc. Being "unhappy" and walking doesn't qualify for removal of duties. I'm sure this is seen somewhat negatively but I'm not privy to the "Powers that Be's" real thoughts. Our church is about 500 members.

And I like your last line. I have struggled I think the most with the self-satisfied, non-apologetic, laissez-faire attitude here especially concerning the kids. This weekend X told me that she was reassuring one of the boys by saying a lot of families have divorced parents so it's no big deal to be ashamed of. Of course that came back to me from him as "(X) told me this was no big deal but I think it is." Ugghh...


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## happyman64

For Mothers Day get a big card.


On the front it should say "Happy Mothers Day".

On the inside it should say "Divorce is No Big Deal 😉"

Love Soca....

No 2x4's for you Soca. You are feeling your way through this stage in your life like any other blind man.

But your STBXW is still one selfish broad. I do think she wishes no ill will on you. But she also took the easy way out in my book.

I can't wait for you to have a GF. And I mean that with all sincerity....

HM64


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## wilderness

soca70 said:


> Wilderness, thanks for the preserverance in reading this sorry tale or woe. I hope you were able to get something out of it and I appreciate you taking the time.
> 
> In regards to the church, there has been no change of status for X. I guess it's not scandalous enough for the Methodist church unless there's some infidelity, abuse, etc. Being "unhappy" and walking doesn't qualify for removal of duties. I'm sure this is seen somewhat negatively but I'm not privy to the "Powers that Be's" real thoughts. Our church is about 500 members.
> 
> And I like your last line. I have struggled I think the most with the self-satisfied, non-apologetic, laissez-faire attitude here especially concerning the kids. This weekend X told me that she was reassuring one of the boys by saying a lot of families have divorced parents so it's no big deal to be ashamed of. Of course that came back to me from him as "(X) told me this was no big deal but I think it is." Ugghh...


Regarding the church- if I were you I would put some serious pressure on the leaders of that church to get her bounced (especially if you like the church). Jesus Christ was pretty clear when it comes to marriage:



> And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
> And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
> The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
> And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
> And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
> Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
> They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
> He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
> And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
> Matthew 19:1-9


I kind of differ from everybody else in this respect- if she has no other man, perhaps it is worth it to keep fighting? 

But either with or without her, don't make this easy on her. Like you said in another post at the very beginning, make her feel the consequences of her actions. 

I'd also like to comment on the recent conversation you had with your wife. She is comparing apples to oranges. You are having conversations with other people concerning _facts_, not opinions. You are under no obligation to keep any of her secrets. In fact I would let her know in no uncertain terms that you are not keeping her dirty little secrets.
What she is doing is offering other people distortions of the truth in order to spin it to look like something different than it really is. This is a form of a lie!


----------



## Conrad

I wouldn't fight for a sociopath.


----------



## soca70

wilderness said:


> Regarding the church- if I were you I would put some serious pressure on the leaders of that church to get her bounced (especially if you like the church). Jesus Christ was pretty clear when it comes to marriage:
> 
> 
> 
> I kind of differ from everybody else in this respect- if she has no other man, perhaps it is worth it to keep fighting?
> 
> But either with or without her, don't make this easy on her. Like you said in another post at the very beginning, make her feel the consequences of her actions.
> 
> I'd also like to comment on the recent conversation you had with your wife. She is comparing apples to oranges. You are having conversations with other people concerning _facts_, not opinions. You are under no obligation to keep any of her secrets. In fact I would let her know in no uncertain terms that you are not keeping her dirty little secrets.
> What she is doing is offering other people distortions of the truth in order to spin it to look like something different than it really is. This is a form of a lie!


Wilderness - thanks for the input. Funny thing, X is at a church committee meeting tonight. I met with the minister back in November and laid the situation out. That's all I feel comfortable doing and don't see what going any further is going to get me or the boys. X spins her own tale apparently as I've seen. Then it comes down to a "He said. She said." 

What I'm planning on doing is going to another Methodist church on my "off" weekends in our neighborhood where I've met the ministers at a street event a couple of years ago and took one of the boys to a Halloween party this past year. Try to establish some fresh relationships possibly.

So today, boys off to school dressed decently for "Class Picture Day", my mom came over for lunch, and then I picked up one boy for a 6 year well-check doctor's appointment. Had to update the paperwork for any changes in medication and then home status. Couldn't make myself change any info. Well-check was fine.

Then went to Target and bought a new 40" LCD TV to replace the existing plasma in the playroom that X is taking tomorrow for the playroom at the rental. I had kept the new LCD TV we bought for the family room last Christmas. I went no-name brand on this one for the price ($350) as it's only watched during the bath ritual and for the Wii (which was a gift from MIL and will also be leaving the building tomorrow around 10 AM). My sister has a Wii that they don't use so that one is coming here.

Boys went wild tonight bouncing on the air mattress before bedtime (especially one and you probably can guess which - other boy started crying for to give X a hug). Air mattress will also be vacating tomorrow along with the few remaining items of X's. Tomorrow will be the first night over at the rental for the boys and at least they are excited to try out the bunk beds.


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## Bullwinkle

Soca

Sounds like fun at the SoCa residence, bouncing on the air mattress. Hang tough, my friend, you're doing great.


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## doureallycare2

Soca,
See if there is a DivorceCare - Divorce Support And Recovery Groups. in your area. I would highly recommend it for making new contacts and possibly a new church. We just had our last meeting last night along with a dinner; It was wonderful meeting everyone’s children. We have started a small break off social meeting group out of it also (about 8 of us). Where we will still be getting together once a month at each other’s homes just to talk and see how we are all doing.


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## soca70

Thanks, BW! We'll see how fun it is the next few days. This will be the first night over at the rental for the boys. They are excited but also nervous. One boy kept asking me this morning while getting ready for school to make sure X knows to pick them up. He also found this little heart-shaped locket picture of the boys in swimming lessons that he wants me to give to X today.

I really hope this works out for them. On paper, it should. But my tendencies to dwell on the negative start to bring up the anger. Will just keep my mouth shut and observe for now (or at least try).

I'm also seeing that possibly they do not trust X fully now to look after thier best interests. I could be misinterpreting this but we'll see. My job is to remain stable and here for them and to let them know that.


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## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> Soca,
> See if there is a DivorceCare - Divorce Support And Recovery Groups. in your area. I would highly recommend it for making new contacts and possibly a new church. We just had our last meeting last night along with a dinner; It was wonderful meeting everyone’s children. We have started a small break off social meeting group out of it also (about 8 of us). Where we will still be getting together once a month at each other’s homes just to talk and see how we are all doing.


Thanks, DYRC! I will check and see what's available. I have thought baout something like this. I found a meetup online called "Divorced and Bitter" but that sounded a bit negative.


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## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> I found a meetup online called "Divorced and Bitter" but that sounded a bit negative.


LOL! Bitter, yah that's happy approach (not)!


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## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Thanks, DYRC! I will check and see what's available. I have thought baout something like this. I found a meetup online called "Divorced and Bitter" but that sounded a bit negative.


LOL, that sounds like one of speakers we had last night- subject was on 'after its all over"- healing and moving on- and she shared how a friend had said to her I’m praying that God helps you to be content right in the situation you find yourself in. 

She said she shot her glass to the ground and yelled don’t you dare pray a prayer like that for me! You can pray that my situation improves or that my ex is torn limb from limb but not that I’m content in this horrible situation! 

She then went on to share however how she is content now and how she could see that everything that happened could be used as a growing point. It’s all about your perspective. 

Bitterness is actually ok as long as you’re learning to work through it.... not focusing on holding on to it...


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## soca70

So the move-out is finally complete. X came over and for about an hour and a half and cleared out the remaining kitchen items (spices, etc) and says to me "The boys say you are going to start cooking? Are you taking a class?", then divvies up the toys, odds and ends, and takes these over to the rental. Brings back some sweatshirts of mine. I stay in my office as this is going on.

We do the TV swap and get that all set up and that's it. I can see out of the corner of my eye, she's taking the last look at "our" house. She tells me she's been feeling very emotional the last couple of days and I see she's tearing up talking about some of the kids' toys.

I drive her back to the rental and we unload the TV there and bring it up to the playroom.

We're sitting in the living room, chatting a bit. I say "S___ has been talking about how your place only has 2 bedrooms." 
X -"Well, they can learn that you can live with less." 
Soca - "Hmmm..."

She says, you can stay as long as you want to and I'm going to start getting back to work. I say no I've got to get going also. X and the boys will be back at 7:00 tonight to get the dog. Asked if I wanted to come over tonight but I said no, I will see them tomorrow.

And that's it.


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## Conrad

Change the locks


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## soca70

Conrad said:


> Change the locks


Ugh - I forgot to ask for the key key back! I will tonight.

I love how after pouring my depressive little update, this is the response I get! I need some sympathy here, people!


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## angelpixie

((hugs)), sweetie. 

I know you hoped it would not come down to this, and that you're worried about your boys, but soon enough, everything will calm down. You're doing a _great_ job.


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## soca70

angelpixie said:


> ((hugs)), sweetie.
> 
> I know you hoped it would not come down to this, and that you're worried about your boys, but soon enough, everything will calm down. You're doing a _great_ job.


Thanks, AP! Ask and ye shall receive...


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## GutPunch

XXOOXX Now change the locks


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## angelpixie

GutPunch said:


> XXOOXX Now change the locks


:rofl:


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## soca70

It's a tough crowd here...


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## Conrad

soca70 said:


> It's a tough crowd here...


We have high expectations of our graduates.


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## Bullwinkle

Change the locks and then install a security system to keep out the riffraff and ex wives.


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## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Change the locks and then install a security system to keep out the riffraff and ex wives.


This morning I knew X was coming over at 10 AM so I locked the door. Sure enough just tried to breeze on in, couldn't and then getting the key out when I opened it.

So rocky first night with the boys for X. For those who wondered (or maybe not cared ) why I was hell-bent on getting final decision-making authority, tonight is just a case in point.

We had agreed that X and the boys would come by at 7:00 pm to get the dog to take over to the rental while they are there. 7:00 PM rolls around and I get a call. It will be 7:30 now. OK. At 7:30, another call:

X - "We're having a problem as S___ now wants a Build-a-Bear and the kind you have to make?"
Soca - "Where are you?"
X - "(The mall on the other side of town.)"
Soca - "Why???"
X- "Meeting friends for dinner."
Soca - "Who????"
X - "(Ex-mutual friends I wouldn't allow the boys to go to the party Monday)"
Soca - "Jesus Christ, they have school tomorrow and they need baths."
X- "We'll pick up the dog later tonight."
Soca - "No, I will keep the dog. Get her tomorrow."

OK. The boys are down by 8:30 at night so instead of a nice dinner at home, baths, a little TV, and then a gentle transition to the first night, X was determined these friends see her and the boys regardless of the fall-out. THIS lack of judgment is what I have battled for 12 years. No wonder I have always felt so angst-ridden now that I can see this at 50,000 feet.

A call at 8:30. 
X - "S___ is c rying because the dog isn't coming and we're almost home."
Soca - "OK, come and get her."

So the boys come in, grab some things, S___ says I will miss you tonight, R___ says "this is only for one night, right?" Also, X "spent $100 at Build-a-Bear!"

Oy vey!

I'm emailing their teachers to schedule a meeting to discuss the situation so they are aware if there any behavioral changes. Getting to bed by 10:00 PM would probably help alleviate that.

Well at least I have the keys now...


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, is there a Death Penalty in Ohio?


----------



## Openminded

Soca, one of the most difficult parts of co-parenting is having to watch the other parent make consistently poor decisions that affect the children's wellbeing.

She will never be the parent she should be.


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## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, is there a Death Penalty in Ohio?


Yes. Unfortunately, it's probably me more at risk as I'm fighting the urge to strangle someone with my bare hands!!!


----------



## soca70

Openminded said:


> Soca, one of the most difficult parts of co-parenting is having to watch the other parent make consistently poor decisions that affect the children's wellbeing.
> 
> She will never be the parent she should be.


Which is ironic now as X was SO much better than I was for the first 3 years or so.


----------



## soca70

Openminded said:


> Soca, one of the most difficult parts of co-parenting is having to watch the other parent make consistently poor decisions that affect the children's wellbeing.
> 
> She will never be the parent she should be.


Yes but I'm also thinking easier in another way if we were together, X would have insisted on going to this dinner. I would have pointed out it's not a good call. X would have pushed back. I would either have pushed back harder or gave in and do it and then get angry at her when the kids fell apart later in the night and were a terror in the morning.

So here's to "being true to yourself" so let's see how it goes with them in the morning.


----------



## Openminded

soca70 said:


> Yes but I'm also thinking easier in another way if we were together, X would have insisted on going to this dinner. I would have pointed out it's not a good call. X would have pushed back. I would either have pushed back harder or gave in and do it and then get angry at her when the kids fell apart later in the night and were a terror in the morning.
> 
> So here's to "being true to yourself" so let's see how it goes with them in the morning.


Yes, that's true. Now, they will have a stable home when they are with you without her input.

But it's hard to watch. It's somewhat better over time because the children get older.


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## Bullwinkle

SoCa, one of the reasons your thread has always interested me was in watching how you seemed so calm and so able to rise above the in-your-face emotion. No screaming matches, nobody whaling you with a wine bottle. 

But now I think you are entering the hardest phase of all this. If you make it through this without running her down in the church parking lot, you will become one of the Titans of TAM.


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## happyman64

Soca

Take it from a guy with 3 kids.

Let her nonsense just roll off you.

If she has to go see the ex friends with the boys, gets them home late and had to go to build a bear then just watch it happen.

Just let it roll off you.

HM64


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## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, one of the reasons your thread has always interested me was in watching how you seemed so calm and so able to rise above the in-your-face emotion. No screaming matches, nobody whaling you with a wine bottle.
> 
> But now I think you are entering the hardest phase of all this. If you make it through this without running her down in the church parking lot, you will become one of the Titans of TAM.


Yes I was proud of my restraint this evening. No "You know, you're an idiot" coming from my mouth.

HM - yes this has rolled off my back. I know X is capable and has watched the boys for 6 years with me out of town for days on end so I'm confident they will physically survive. In a way, I'm getting a bit of a kick out of this as for years I had to listen to "Well, I'm the primary care-giver..." I know we will make this work. I think X will start learning the hard way and make corrections as necessary.


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## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> . If you make it through this without running her down in the church parking lot, you will become one of the Titans of TAM.


I don't read enough of the "literature" to join HM and Conrad or AngelPixie.


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## angelpixie

Don't sell yourself short. You're moving through this much faster than I did.


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## zillard

soca70 said:


> I don't read enough of the "literature" to join HM and Conrad or AngelPixie.


What's stopping you?


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## soca70

zillard said:


> What's stopping you?


Z - good question. 

I have been recommended several books on the website and I see Conrad always references DeMello. I do read a lot - about a book a week. But fiction like Lee Child, Michael Connelly, David Baldacci, James Rollins, Stephen King, etc. It's a good escape for me. I've never been drawn to "self-help" books much. I did read "The Happiness Project" last year - which should have been a warning sign...


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## zillard

soca70 said:


> Z - good question.
> 
> I have been recommended several books on the website and I see Conrad always references DeMello. I do read a lot - about a book a week. But fiction like Lee Child, Michael Connelly, David Baldacci, James Rollins, Stephen King, etc. It's a good escape for me. I've never been drawn to "self-help" books much. I did read "The Happiness Project" last year - which should have been a warning sign...


I can guarantee that there is a whole bunch of stuff inside you that is incredibly interesting. 

If you can get past the fear of looking.

...and as Conrad says (from DeMello), once you can see through yourself you can see through others.


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## soca70

Z - what books have you liked or found helpful?


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## zillard

soca70 said:


> Z - what books have you liked or found helpful?


Awareness - Anthony DeMello
Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends - Bruce Fisher
Self-Therapy - Jay Earley
Being Happy - Andrew Matthews
I Thought We Were Happy - Jonathan L Lewis
Codependent No More - Melody Beattie
Dating for Dads - Ellie Slott Fisher
Creative Visualization - Shakti Gawain
No More Mister Nice Guy - Robert A. Glover
Married Mans Sex Life Primer - Athol Kay
Not Just Friends - Shirley P. Glass


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## zillard

One that came in VERY handy before breaking the news to D7 about the divorce:

Putting Children First: Proven Parenting Strategies for Helping Children Thrive Through Divorce - JoAnne Pedro-Carroll

If your stbx/x has a mood disorder: 

Stop Walking on Eggshells - Paul Mason MS and Randi Kreger

Good children's books:

Dinosaurs Divorce - Marc Brown and Laurie Krasny Brown
An Umbrella for Alex - Rachel Rashkin-Shoot


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## soca70

Thanks, Z! I will check some of these out.


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## angelpixie

As a follow-up to Codependent No More, you might also look at 
The New Codependency: Help and Guidance for Today's Generation: Melody Beattie: 9781439102145: Amazon.com: Books

It clarifies things from her first book, such as when certain normal behaviors cross over into codependence.


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## zillard

soca70 said:


> Thanks, Z! I will check some of these out.


Please hit me up if you want more info/opinions on any of them beforehand. Some may not apply to your situation. 

I first recommend to anyone in this subforum:
Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends - Bruce Fisher

And "I Thought We Were Happy" is not a self help book, but a personal account of a man who received the ILYBNILWY speech from his wife and the events/therapy that followed... including some IFS therapy. A very quick, easy, insightful read.


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## angelpixie

I second 'Rebuilding'.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> I second 'Rebuilding'.


Yes! It really touches on everything from self confidence, anger, fear, learned behavior from childhood, loneliness, sex, love, etc. 

Not a quick read if done correctly but a catch all that is extremely effective if you take the time to do all the exercises.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

Z and AP - thanks for all the suggestions. I went to Barnes and Noble today and picked up the Fisher "Rebuilding" book. I figuilred it was the most salient at this moment.

LONG day as the kids were not here, dog was not here, work being still slow. Slept in until 10 AM. 

As I indicated, went to the bookstore, and then stopped by school right after classes let out to speak with both of the boys' kindergarten teachers to let them know of the situation. Since we now have started the schedule, I thought this was the right time. Both said each boy had briefly mentioned this a couple of weeks ago but no issues, etc.

I stopped by the renatl to let X know I was at school. X let me know she had spoken with one teacher this past Friday. "These are the things you need to let me know about..." Made plans for me to come back over at 7:00 PM for bed/baths.

I'm over at 7:00 and dinner is being served and I am offered some. So we eat together. X has this little two chair dinette set and has me pull me in an office chair while she stands. (I know we have discussed this before and I got a 2X4 but I have a kitchen/great room dining table and a formal dining table and can seat 20 people so yes this p*****s me off).

I am shown the new hamster and cage and wheel. Boys love it. Hope the dog doesn't eat it. Plus the $100 of Build-a-Bears plus the $100 new Lego set. (For this kind of money, I'd try to get 2 more kitchen chairs)

I make a big deal out of the claw-foot tub and how cool it is, and how there are lions' paws, etc. I give one boy a bath and X does the other. X thanks me for being positive about the tub as they were scared of it.

Pajamas, reading from the hamster book, checking out the bunk beds. I notice there is a window open with just a screen for air right next to the bottom bunk. I tell X you've got to keep that locked and closed. "Oh I didn't even notice it" - bedroom is on 2nd floor and I could see them wrestling right out the window! They get to sleep by 9 PM and I let X know I will be over for movie night tomorrow.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Plus the $100 of Build-a-Bears plus the $100 new Lego set. (For this kind of money, I'd try to get 2 more kitchen chairs)


This cracks me up -- you think the way I do, lol. She will be having 3 people there; how does she think only 2 chairs will suffice? Despite what the boys consider most important (Legos and B-a-B's), she should be able to budget enough to afford those things AND chairs.  (and have money leftover, but that's just me...  )


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## 06Daddio08

May I ask why the other parent keeps coming over to do bedtime things?


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## soca70

angelpixie said:


> This cracks me up -- you think the way I do, lol. She will be having 3 people there; how does she think only 2 chairs will suffice? Despite what the boys consider most important (Legos and B-a-B's), she should be able to budget enough to afford those things AND chairs.  (and have money leftover, but that's just me...  )


Apparently there are 2 more somewhere that have not been assembled yet. And the Explorer just came back from a major overhaul at $1200 today. I saw some financial stress today and thought "Good. Let X deal with what I have for 12 years."


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## soca70

06Daddio08 said:


> May I ask why the other parent keeps coming over to do bedtime things?


Feel free. The family therapist suggested when we made the transition for me to come over initially and maybe even spend the night to get the boys used to the new place. Also, the boys were very concerned about where everyone was going to be, sleep, etc. This rental is walking distance from my house.

And frankly, as X has looked at me like an impediment to happiness, I look at X now as an impediment to me and my kids' relationship. There are 3 people not happy with the situation and if I can nose over there as much as possible I will. My boys want to see me as much as possible and likewise. Will this arrangement last? Probably not but for now I'm doing it until I see an issue.


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## 06Daddio08

With respect to your children, if they have any medical conditions to support an agreement like this ... I do not see how delaying the reality of the situation will help them.

The "no more other parent coming over" will be just as rough then, as it would be now.


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## Bullwinkle

SoCa

You're doing fine, bud. Much better than I would be with such an arrangement. Like we've discussed in the past, I would find your STXWs proximity maddening. I would be forever wanting to start some pointless argument or more likely, drawn to her physically and then angry with myself for it. 

We all understand that you're doing your best to deal with the cards you've been dealt.


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> She is sitting on the couch and then tells me about some ongoing pain near her groin which she jokes could be cancer (but she is a little bit of a hypochondriac so I can tell she's concerned) or that it could be a hernia or a strain. And then asks me to see if I feel anything and then pulls her shorts down some and puts my hand down them. I'm thinking "this is like some sort of porno". Unfortunately STBX is no Frostine and I can tell this is not going any further so I say "well if it keeps hurting for a week, go see the doctor."


wth, i think you are misconstruing this. she is very much looking to see if you will give her the same level of comfort as before. who does that with a spouse they are callously getting rid off. all frigid most of the time and suddenly put your hands down my pants. she is looking to see if you will be plan b and pliant as usual. maybe if you had shown more 'interest' she might have escalated to keep you in control and pliable.


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> Feel free. The family therapist suggested when we made the transition for me to come over initially and maybe even spend the night to get the boys used to the new place. Also, the boys were very concerned about where everyone was going to be, sleep, etc. This rental is walking distance from my house.
> 
> And frankly, as X has looked at me like an impediment to happiness, I look at X now as an impediment to me and my kids' relationship. There are 3 people not happy with the situation and if I can nose over there as much as possible I will. My boys want to see me as much as possible and likewise. Will this arrangement last? Probably not but for now I'm doing it until I see an issue.


i think your boys will soon get used to it and you can wean away from this practice. also as they get older they will be more independent. do now what you need to do for their benefit. but the longer you both keep doing this together, wont the more confusing it get for them. i guess you just have to go with the flow and see where it goes. good luck. for what it is worth, i think you have done really well to transition into this phase. see good things ahead for you and your boys


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## doureallycare2

I agree with Bull, I think your trying to be the best Dad you can be in helping to transition your sons to their new way of life. I would just caution that you can’t linger on it to long though. The sooner you let them start to adapt the better. They with have many "first's" now with your wife and with you and they need to learn to accept them (but to tell you if anything bothers them). I think you will find you have a harder time adapting then they do.


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## soca70

Thanks all for the input. As I've indicated previously, I'm palying some of this by ear to see how it goes. I have IC next week and will run all this by her.

Also, for anyone reading this in the same boat as many of us here, I would highly recommend Z and AP's suggestion of picking up the "Rebuilding" book by Bruce Fisher. I just started that last night and I can already tell that will be extremely helpful. So thanks AP and Z!!!


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## karole

Soca, you are going to make some woman very happy one day and your EXW is going to curse the day she let you go.


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## soca70

I cancelled my gym appointment today as I had double-booked my other son's 6 yr well-check appt at the same time over a month ago. Although it was X's "day", we both went. Everything going fine. No problems. Boys are rarely sick. I'm on the ball with the follow up update on his last issue from 6 months ago and knowing when his cardio check is (Dec). He has a minor heart murmur that is on a 2 yr check-up now. Dr was impressed. X has no clue as I handle all this.

Driving back, X asks if I can pick up the other boy from school as this one wants some "alone time" away from brother. Suggests the yogurt store. I say "Before dinner?" Well, X had committed to the alone time and didn't want to upset that one and changing plans on the other can send that one into the stratosphere so she felt offering a "treat" would assuage the change of plans. I said "Yes but he won't eat dinner now." One day, X will learn to keep things simpler for them. 

So I pick S___ up, mad for about 2 mins as he expected X to pick him up, forgets being mad when yougurt is promised, have yogurt, and over to the rental for dinner and Family Movie Night. Of course, S___ doesn't eat dinner...but does opt for popcorn an hour later. 

During the movie, X askes if I can keep the boys Wed night next week also due to flying out and back for one night/day for a court appearance in Las Vegas. Sure, no problem. Also, X wants to go the gym tomorrow and can either have next-door teenager who babysits them watch them or me for about 2 hours. I will, no problem. Remember last week, I had to ask the same for my near-amputation recovery so I can't say anything.

After movie, I give the boys a kiss and hug good night and back home. Hanging with the housekeeper who usually works until 10 PM.

The positive is this is not bothering me like I thought it would. Seems to be OK - far from ideal - but OK for now.


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## 06Daddio08

Why. The. Hell. Are. You. Doing. All. These. Favors. For. Her?


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## Bullwinkle

SoCa

I got the Fisher book today that you recommended. Thanks againn

Daddio, he's just trying to cooperate as best he can with this crazy twit. I'd have killed her by now, but SoCa is strong.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa
> 
> I got the Fisher book today that you recommended. Thanks againn
> 
> *Daddio, he's just trying to cooperate as best he can with this crazy twit. I'd have killed her by now, but SoCa is strong.*


I don't question his strength through this, as that would be foolish. But if it's her day, she should be paying the sitter to do it. I also understand the concept of cooperating with an ex as I have a decent arrangement with my ex .. but this is all being done in reverse IMO.

Things should be completely separated right now, and then later on, when it's established that no one is 'expected' to do it, these things can be done from time to time.

Right now, this is setting up for trouble. Wait and see. Movie nights together, bedtime sharing .. taking the kids so the other can go to the gym, etc.

In all honesty, it's better to set up a few "I'm unable to, sorry" scenarios now, just to see how she will react. Probably won't be good.


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## ReGroup

I agree with my buddy Up... Start establishing these boundaries now or you'll be attempting to create them forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soca70

I can see the concern but the fact is I need these favors from X as well. In fact, I was the first to have to ask. Two weeks ago, I was ordered to Virginia that day by work and I had to leave at 3:00 PM. It was "my day" and I was watching not just my kids but someone else's at Putt-Putt Golf. X had to drop everything and handle this for me.

Last Saturday, on "my day", I practically cut off part of my finger doing yard work and have to ask her to watch the boys for a couple of hours while I go to urgent care, get taped/bandaged, a tetanus shot, etc.

We both have travel schedules and mine are usually more "last-minute". In the long-run, I'm going to need X's cooperation more. Also, our custody agreement requires "right of first refusal". Tomorrow, I have literally nothing planned so if I can hang with the kids for a couple of hours, I'm fine. X also said if I was unable to, she would get the girl next door. I'm not adjusting any plans to accommodate her, so I'm OK with that. If I take a hard line, really it will be me getting bitten on the a$$.

I've already gone with the "not available" route several times during the last 6 months so X always has a back-up plan before asking and it's now only involving the kids. For example, this week, the Explorer went into the shop for 2 days and she went ahead and rented a car to take the boys to school, etc. Didn't even really mention it to me much.

However, I will not be offering rides to the airport any longer.


----------



## angelpixie

I was going to ask about the 'right of first refusal' thing -- Ex and I have that, too. At my insistence, actually. Any extra time I can spend with DS, I take it when I can. I understand, Soca. But there have been times where one or the other of us have had to say No, and it's been OK. 

And good for you on ending your airport limo service.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

I think you are doing great.

But please do me one favor.

Get a new GF in the next few months.

And if you really like her, take her for a walk down the street. Yes! In that direction.

Hopefully the walk will be in the morning.

Why do I ask you to do this? 

So your selfish ex will have that Aha! Moment that she so clearly needs.

Probably will not change anything but it sure cant hurt you either......

And oh yeah if the ex sees you two dont forget to wave .


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## Bullwinkle

Good advice, Happy. And video it for us, SoCa.


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## angelpixie

If you get a girlfriend in the next few months, Soca, do it because you like her and want to be with her. Don't egg on the XW. I know it's a nice fantasy; I'm not being a stick in the mud. BUT -- you don't owe XW any Aha! moments. Her problems are too deep for that. If she sees you with someone, and it upsets her, she'll go into victim overdrive and make your life hell. It's not going to make her reevaluate her actions or words through all this or anything else. I don't really think you'll feel better if you see her go ballistic when you get a GF. 

Just live your life for you and the boys. She'll be learning to fly (or fall) on her own now.


----------



## happyman64

AngelPixie

Did you really think Soca would do that?

The man does not have a bad bone in his body.

And Soca is going to be just fine.

As long as he does not date any attorneys......😁


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> AngelPixie
> 
> Did you really think Soca would do that?
> 
> The man does not have a bad bone in his body.
> 
> And Soca is going to be just fine.
> 
> As long as he does not date any attorneys......&#55357;&#56833;


Ha! I laughed out loud at that! Oh there's bad ones somewhere...

As far as dating, not there yet and I definitely would not "use" someone to get a reaction. If something happens on its own, well a different story, but I'm not seeking an "A ha" moment. If that comes organically, it comes. I don't expect it to and am working to move on accordingly.

Read the Fisher book until the wee hours last night and gained some great insight into the issues in our marriage. In sum, I became an Over-responsible "Perfectionist" as our relationship progressed and X had adapted a people-pleasing Under-responsible role. The OR partner tends to take care of his and his partner's business and in a critical way. People-pleasing UR goes along with it until they start to chafe and assert their own responsibility and then begin to feel they are not being "allowed" to. Apparently, this Perfectionisit personality is hard to live with. Ring any bells here? Did for me.

In terms of perfectionism, I'm guilty as charged. I keep the house like a model home ("this isn't a museum"), scuffs on the wall bug me, we had a ceiling leak in the living room that we couldn't determine the cause which drove me crazy, the dead patches in the yard due to the lack of sprinkler system which led to our final argument, etc etc. I honestly always felt the most serene was when no one was home and the housekeeper had left and the gardeners were finished and I could enjoy "perfection" for a period of time which in this house I settled for a subpar lot and no gardeners to get a new house in the area (which I should have known would drive me nuts). 

The homework for the book at this step is to not make the bed for 5 days which I started today and of course, I'm finding that disturbing... So looking forward to reading more of this book. I'm thinking about getting a copy for X.

So today, futzed in the morning, went over to the rental with the boys for a couple of hours while X had a hair appt and the gym, went to Lowe's for yard waste bags as I'm planning the first mow of the season tomorrow, over to my parents for dinner. Helped my parents search online for a new church and I'm planning on going to check out a new one tomorrow morning. Plan is to have two - our original for "my" days and another for the "off" days to start building an independent network.


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## angelpixie

Do NOT get her a copy. :nono: Just sayin. 


And, HM, no I don't really think Soca would ever date someone just to get a reaction from Ex. He is far too decent to do that.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Do NOT get her a copy. :nono: Just sayin.


Do you really think so (apparently so )? I found this so interesting as it explains the adaptive methods we develop from childhood and how they manifest into love relationships. It really nailed the reason it felt we were always butting heads. I'm not looking for any response from this but it does help explain the feelings on both of our ends. It seems helpful as a "post-mortem" and at least we can walk away with a better understanding rather than "he's a pain in the a$$" and "she's a loony twit".


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## happyman64

Good plan Soca.

And I agree Soca.

My wife "was" a perfectionist like you Soca.

Our 3 daughters and I broke her of that quality though she still likes to vacuum the house everyday, does laundry everyday and very rarely let's me help out.

But I do buy her a new Electrolux every few years and replace the washer/dryer every two or three years.

I use to think they don't make appliances like they use to but maybe my wife is obsessive/compulsive.

Tomorrow I will call her a "perfectionist" and see where that gets me.

Maybe she will think it is a compliment... 😏

Have a good day Tomorrow Soca. A new network sounds nice.


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## angelpixie

But.....she doesn't WANT to understand those things. She doesn't want to do the research into the causes for how she acts and feels. I totally understand you, don't get me wrong. I read so many books, and there were countless times I wanted to buy the book for Ex, too. In fact, I did get one from the library, and I gave it to him to read when I was finished. There were parts the described his childhood so clearly. He never read it. 

If people like him and your XW were interested in finding out what was going on inside them, and where it came from, and most importantly, how to work on and fix it...they'd be doing what we've done: buying and reading the books and doing the homework. 

*But they didn't when we were married to them, either, did they? That's why we're not married/almost not married to them anymore.
*
Seriously, I totally understand how you feel.


----------



## Awakening2012

The posts about the futility of trying to get STBX's to read certain books made me smile. I had such a stellar reading list that I just knew would help my STBXH get his head on straight  Well, he clearly would not read a "self-help" book to save his life, and would rather chew on ground glass - LOL!

Can't lead the horse to water, much less make him drink - heh, heh!

Cheers,- A12


----------



## Openminded

She will never "get" it. Don't waste your time there.

I also am a perfectionist who was married to the "other type". When we separated he told me that for example ye entire time we were married he felt he couldn't meet my standards. I'm sure he would like to blame his cheating on that but my attitude was if he couldn't meet my standards, and wasn't able to discuss it, then he should have just left decades ago. 

But that's never what they do.


----------



## soca70

Thanks, guys, for the input. To be fair, X did buy some books (like Gottman) about 4 years ago. Not sure what was gleaned from those as I never heard much about them. As she says, she's "tried" for years. As I said, well it takes 2 to try and I didn't know about this "trying". Different perspectives again. And X has been regularly attending IC now so I'm assuming there's interest in self-awareness. But probably not a good idea to try to run out and "convert" somebody.

So today, I followed up on my plan to attend a different church to check it out. One in a slightly different part of town to try to "shake it up" a bit. Beautiful building, very welcoming, etc. But small congregation, skewed much older, and a noticeable lack of 30-40's people so struck that one off the list. I'm trying a big quasi- nondenominational one right down the street next.

Had lunch with my parents, came home mowed the grass (patchy spots starting to irritate me again so I see that as a sign of recovery ), small chores until the boys and dog came back at 5:45. X had done a lot of fun activities with them (science museum, park, etc) so they had a good weekend. 

The boys (and the dog) looked pretty tired. X tells me R___ has been very sad today as he won't see X for several days because of the trip on Tue-Wed. So I suggested having X pick up the boys from school and take them to gymnastics tomorrow which was agreed to.

S___ keeps going in and out of the bathroom and I can tell he needs to poop (he has difficulty going). So I finally say to him sit down and he does and I ask him if he has gone to the bathroom at the rental. He says no and that he was waiting to come home because that toilet was old. Oy!

R___ is still saying "I miss (X)" repeatedly and I wish she was here. And I say, "Well, you've got me now." and Soca Jr pipes in "Well, I guess that's better than nothing!" Kid has a future career in the Catskills.

I notice that X didn't bring back S___'s "Pillow Pet" so I call and have it brought over.

X: "How are they doing?"
Soca: "R___ is pretty despondent."
X: "I know. It breaks my heart."
Soca: "OK. Bye." *shuts door* Grrr....

So boys are out almost like lights. R___ says to me "I just got used to sleeping over there and now I have to get used to sleeping here." Another Grrrr....

However, all in all, I think they are OK and will be with me until Thursday.


----------



## happyman64

"It breaks her heart" My @ss.

It will get easier in time for all you though.....


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> "It breaks her heart" My @ss.
> 
> It will get easier in time for all you though.....


Yes I couldn't wait to get that one on the board...


----------



## happyman64

Don't forget. No making the bed tomorrow Soca...


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> R___ is still saying "I miss (X)" repeatedly and I wish she was here. And I say, "Well, you've got me now." and Soca Jr pipes in "Well, I guess that's better than nothing!" Kid has a future career in the Catskills.


Ahhh, little kids and their lack of filter. :rofl:


----------



## zillard

Soca, 

I did "lend" my X some books. But only after there was a request and a discussion about which ones I've found helpful in a joint session. 

Nobody will really read anything until they are interested.


----------



## doureallycare2

Awakening2012 said:


> The posts about the futility of trying to get STBX's to read certain books made me smile. I had such a stellar reading list that I just knew would help my STBXH get his head on straight  Well, he clearly would not read a "self-help" book to save his life, and would rather chew on ground glass - LOL!
> 
> Can't lead the horse to water, much less make him drink - heh, heh!
> 
> Cheers,- A12


I used to read them in front of him then place them around the house so he would have every opportunity to pick one up and start reading. Outcome: I know way more than I need to about sexual addiction and not enough about surviving on my own.


----------



## soca70

I was discussing the Rebuilding book today with my mother at lunch and some aspects I thought could relate to people in general. And she came over to my house, read it a bit, and now wants a copy. So someone's interested at least.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hey, SoCa, I read the book you recommended by Fischer, Great Book!


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Hey, SoCa, I read the book you recommended by Fischer, Great Book!


I found the anger part very interesting and applicable. Still in the middle of it and have found it very enlightening about the recovery process. Thanks to Zillard and AngelPixie for the recommendation!


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> I found the anger part very interesting and applicable. Still in the middle of it and have found it very enlightening about the recovery process. Thanks to Zillard and AngelPixie for the recommendation!


My pleasure. 

For me it was the one book that helped me the most through the divorce process. I took it real slow and discussed progress in IC weekly over a 2-3 month period. 

Then I was more prepared and open to CDNM, DeMello and IFS.


----------



## soca70

Z - I have found more insights to our marriage and the divorce process in several days with that $10 book than I have with 4 months of IC. However, I think if I can relate this info in IC, it will be more beneficial. I have my first IC appt tomorrow in several weeks.

The good news is that I've been tracking along pretty well on the rebuilding process and doing the right things for the most part.

I found it very interesting that a very common reaction is to retreat and lick your wounds for several months. I'm just now getting out of that retreat mode. It really has been difficult to interact with people outside the immediate circle for me since late September. It's taken a huge effort. That's why TAM has been such a godsend.


----------



## zillard

My IC and I saw that retreat mode as a very real danger for me, as I'm quiet in general and work from home. Little interaction with others. 

This is why I forced myself to get out on saturdays and talk to strangers. It kept me from holing up too much and also did wonders for my confidence level.

And yes, TAM!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

This evening, X brings the boys back from dinner/gymnastics and thanks me for allowing her to spend time with them before the Las Vegas business trip tomorrow. Apparently, she was pretty upset the other night about not seeing them for 5 days. I said I did it as R___ was pretty despondent and I thought it made sense. 

X then let me know that she discussed my questions as I asked with the family therapist on Friday about whether this alternating/group activity was confusing to the boys or not. I said that "others" had expressed concern on this. X said the therapist said that if we could pull it off, it was the most preferable outcome for the boys. Which I have thought all along. I'm making a follow up family therapy appt for them in the next week and will discuss this with her further.

And speaking of therapy, I let X know about the Rebuilding book (I should get on the publisher's payroll at this point) and how there was a section that really nailed our dynamic and also indicated how it was the most common scenario for divorce (X: "I can see why.") Plus it gives insight into the actions of both parties during the process. She asked for me to email the info and she'd get it. Then off to pack.

So boys bathed, in bed (only one altercation), and a peaceful evening.


----------



## angelpixie

Well, I guess it can't hurt to recommend the book. But don't expect anything. (I know what you mean about royalties. I've felt that way with a few books and blogs, too, lol)


----------



## angelpixie

I'm glad she talked to the therapist about the boys, too -- she's starting to sound more like a caring mom, all of a sudden. Hmmm.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> I'm glad she talked to the therapist about the boys, too -- she's starting to sound more like a caring mom, all of a sudden. Hmmm.


Please don't read into it. I can assure you there are no second thoughts there.

However, I think seeing some of the reality hit the kids has gotten her disturbed.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Please don't read into it. I can assure you there are no second thoughts there.
> 
> However, I think seeing some of the reality hit the kids has gotten her disturbed.


Only a moment until her sociopathic self takes over - again.


----------



## angelpixie

Oh no, I'm not that naive. I was thinking more along the lines of what you responded with. She's been noticing more since the actual going back and forth between houses has begun. I don't for a minute think this is a signal of a change in her.


----------



## Awakening2012

I just ordered the "Rebuilding" book, too, and look forward to reading it -- thanks, guys!

Best,- A12


----------



## Pbartender

doureallycare2 said:


> I used to read them in front of him then place them around the house so he would have every opportunity to pick one up and start reading. Outcome: I know way more than I need to about sexual addiction and not enough about surviving on my own.


At one point, I asked AXW to read a few relevant books... She flat out told me, "Look, I don't want to read those books. I know it helps you to understand what's going on, but I don't care."

And that's why she's eventually going to end up in the exact same mess over and over and over again.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> At one point, I asked AXW to read a few relevant books... She flat out told me, "Look, I don't want to read those books. I know it helps you to understand what's going on, but I don't care."
> 
> And that's why she's eventually going to end up in the exact same mess over and over and over again.


Try not to enjoy it (too) much.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, don't feel bad, the only books my WS ever reads are Nicolas Sparks books, you know, girl from small town in North Carolina thinks she and her daughter will be alone forever until a mysterious stranger with an even more mysterious past suddenly appears in town.


----------



## angelpixie

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, don't feel bad, the only books my WS ever reads are Nicolas Sparks books, you know, girl from small town in North Carolina thinks she and her daughter will be alone forever until a mysterious stranger with an even more mysterious past suddenly appears in town.


^^^    ^^^

Yeah, like that's helpful.


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, don't feel bad, the only books my WS ever reads are Nicolas Sparks books, you know, girl from small town in North Carolina thinks she and her daughter will be alone forever until a mysterious stranger with an even more mysterious past suddenly appears in town.


That's funny BW.

Does the mysterious stranger have horrible breath, sh!t brown teeth, an Irish brogue and think it is ok to bang married woman in his office???

You should ask her sometime when she calms down, oh sorry, if she ever calms down. 

Keep going forward BW. And start looking at her face. Yes, keep your eyes focused above her neck so you are not hypnotized..... 

Otherwise your sister is going to be the next person with a wine bottle in her hand.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Touché, HappyMan. 

SoCa, I was just trying to be lighthearted. Maybe if I'd read more self help books like so many on TAM I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Touché, HappyMan.
> 
> SoCa, I was just trying to be lighthearted. Maybe if I'd read more self help books like so many on TAM I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in.


Well this "Rebuilding" is the first one I've actually been reading all the way through. I picked up "The Purpose-Drven Life" about 5 years ago but thought it was drivel...


----------



## Bullwinkle

I know. I read Rebuilding it too and it was very good. My only point was that it seems to me, and I'm not talking about you, that some people spend so much time on hand-wringing self- introspection that life is passing them by.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> I know. I read Rebuilding it too and it was very good. My only point was that it seems to me, and I'm not talking about you, that some people spend so much time on hand-wringing self- introspection that life is passing them by.


Yes I think there is a danger there. It's easier to escape into your head/computer than it is to face the real world. 

However, I feel like I might as well turn this into an opportunity for growth and self-improvement. The reality for me is that this has been a "soul punch" and it's taken me 6 months to get to the point where I'm feeling "OK" enough again to live life again. In the interim downtime, I've done some "self-introspection".


----------



## Bullwinkle

I understand. Believe me, I've done more than my share. Reading your thread, I was always envious that you had your kids with you to engage with, take up your time. I can't tell you how many nights I sat on a sad balcony, drinking Jack Daniels, playing it all over and over again in my head. 

Her awful behavior. My countless mistakes.


----------



## angelpixie

RE: Introspection and self-examination: None of it is wasted time if it helps to prevent repeating the mistakes we made in our past relationships. In fact, if done right, it's time well spent, considering the possible rewards.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> RE: Introspection and self-examination: None of it is wasted time if it helps to prevent repeating the mistakes we made in our past relationships. In fact, if done right, it's time well spent, considering the possible rewards.


I don't ever plan to quit. You can actually really live a good life while doing it.

Always room for improvement.


----------



## Bullwinkle

AP

I wasn't criticisng self-examination and introspection. I encourage it. I have done plenty of it. I was respectfully suggesting that it appears to me that with some people, that is apparently ALL they do. Sit in a dark room compiling new lists of the 25 self-help books they haven't read yet.


----------



## zillard

Bullwinkle said:


> AP
> 
> I wasn't criticisng self-examination and introspection. I encourage it. I have done plenty of it. I was respectfully suggesting that it appears to me that with some people, that is apparently ALL they do. Sit in a dark room compiling new lists of the 25 self-help books they haven't read yet.


Good point. 

My IC cautioned against that. And in every session he'd ask:

"What are you doing for you? Outside of this work?"


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I don't ever plan to quit. You can actually really live a good life while doing it.
> 
> Always room for improvement.


It's part of the 50,000 foot experience.

You examine all reactions - including your own.


----------



## angelpixie

Bullwinkle said:


> AP
> 
> I wasn't criticisng self-examination and introspection. I encourage it. I have done plenty of it. I was respectfully suggesting that it appears to me that with some people, that is apparently ALL they do. Sit in a dark room compiling new lists of the 25 self-help books they haven't read yet.


I didn't take it that way, BW. I agree with you. It doesn't do much good if you don't take the information you gain and do something with it.


----------



## happyman64

When you have troubled spouses that are self destructive or just running away from the marriage you really owe it to yourselves to think about what you want in life with or without them.

This is coming from a guy in a solid, loving relationship. But having lived through 911 a few years ago and then walking right past a car loaded with explosives in Times Square a while back I really got to thinking that I needed to put preparations in place just in case something happened.

My wife thought I was crazy and was very upset that I doubled the insurance and had our wills redone. I also made drastic lifestyle changes for myself. Hell, my wife probably thought I was having a MLC or was getting ready to leave now that I think about it.

But as time went on she knew I was right. Something could happen to one of us or both of us.

And in the same light look at what has happened in your lives. It really does not matter if infidelity was the cause or not. A spouse can decide to leave the family unit or worse just destroy the family unit.

We all have to think about what we want in life and then plan accordingly. 

*Because in the end all you can really do is depend on yourselves.*

HM64


----------



## Bullwinkle

AP, agreed. HappyMan, you're really waxing philosophical today. Great post. SoCa, we're hoping you're in the garage chain smoking.


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> AP, agreed. HappyMan, you're really waxing philosophical today. Great post. SoCa, we're hoping you're in the garage chain smoking.


Wax On!

Wax Off!


----------



## angelpixie

Bullwinkle said:


> AP, agreed. HappyMan, you're really waxing philosophical today. Great post. SoCa, we're hoping you're in the garage chain smoking.



No, no, no!! Smoking is bad, m'kay? :nono:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sorry, I meant to say, we hope you're NOT smoking in the garage!


----------



## happyman64

angelpixie said:


> No, no, no!! Smoking is bad, m'kay? :nono:


THat all depends on what you are smoking???

And after what these two guys have been through it should be legalized.....


----------



## Bullwinkle

Ha!


----------



## happyman64

Then again if Obama and Congress can tax it, it will be legal in the next 4 years.....


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> AP, agreed. HappyMan, you're really waxing philosophical today. Great post. SoCa, we're hoping you're in the garage chain smoking.


OK - so it's my one vice left. And not many people are aware of it. Least of all the kids!


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> I understand. Believe me, I've done more than my share. Reading your thread, I was always envious that you had your kids with you to engage with, take up your time. I can't tell you how many nights I sat on a sad balcony, drinking Jack Daniels, playing it all over and over again in my head.
> 
> Her awful behavior. My countless mistakes.


Yes it's a tape of would have, could have, should have. 

I believe Conrad has said to me on here that I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. My X comes across like a sociopath here but she's really not. Actually, I feel like I'm more to blame here as I took my eye off the ball regarding the marriage with the cross-country move, building 2 houses, having the kids, new job - all in the last 5-6 years. My mistake was thinking this was on auto-pilot and I could be free to express my frustration, worries, insecurities, etc. And not really edit what I said or how I said it. Big lesson learned the hard way.


----------



## Bullwinkle

I hear you, SoCa. 

Same same. While I have surely depicted mine as a psycho and in my case I truly believe she is, I have a similar list of regrets and mistakes that I would give anything to do over. But I think i always thought deep down that there would always be time to make it right, that each terrible fight or dark period would fade and she would love me unconditionally. And I never dreamed she would end up in some other guy's arms. I will never get that image out of my head for the rest of my life.


----------



## angelpixie

Same here, guys. My IC says the same to me -- You did the best you could with what you knew at the time. And I never thought things were so bad that we couldn't work through them and get stronger, once the stress, crises, etc., died down. But they never did, and things were never worked through. He didn't want to have to 'work' for a marriage (his words). I wish he'd told me that before we got married. Except I can't say that, because if we'd never married, I wouldn't have DS. And I'd never give him back.

So, when all is said and done, this is all one big life-lesson learning experience, I guess.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good point, AP. I wouldn't have D3.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Well this "Rebuilding" is the first one I've actually been reading all the way through. I picked up "The Purpose-Drven Life" about 5 years ago but thought it was drivel...


Glad Im not the only one that had a hard time getting through Purose drivin. I will try rebuilding


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> Same here, guys. My IC says the same to me -- You did the best you could with what you knew at the time. And I never thought things were so bad that we couldn't work through them and get stronger, once the stress, crises, etc., died down. But they never did, and things were never worked through. He didn't want to have to 'work' for a marriage (his words). I wish he'd told me that before we got married. Except I can't say that, because if we'd never married, I wouldn't have DS. And I'd never give him back.
> 
> So, when all is said and done, this is all one big life-lesson learning experience, I guess.


Im tired of learning hard lessons!!


----------



## zillard

doureallycare2 said:


> Im tired of learning hard lessons!!


But they are the best ones! More opportunity for growth.


----------



## soca70

Oh, where is my lotus tree? 

Just got off the phone with the boys as they are over at X's rental tonight but will be back tomorrow. They sounded pretty down not to be together.

X came over at 4:30 today to pick up blankets and sleeping buddies as she has returned from Las Vegas (and had sent me chirpy little texts detailing the trip for two days - "Can't believe I'm in Vegas and going to bed at 8 PM!" and the like).

So I get the boys' stuff together and she says "You're acting weird." I really aim for indifference but the annoyance and resentment bubble over sometimes. "No, I just don't like the idea of the boys leaving their home."

A couple of days ago, X was going on about how this will be a lesson for them to learn to live with less. Frankly, f**k that. X has lived in $500K+ houses (our LA house was $1.2M) for over 12 years with me but is now going to "teach" the kids? She can spin the fact that all she's got now is a 900 sq ft apartment any way she wants but the fact is that in this school district she's screwed getting anything decent that she can afford solo. 

I know I've gotten 2X4's on this before but it chaps my hide to have busted my tail for years to get to this point and now it's regarded disdainfully. I didn't hear anybody saying "no" to this previously. I told the X a few days ago that what the living arrangement she had was not satisfactory for any long-term plan for the boys so prepare accordingly. Of course I have no say on that but I did get my thoughts out there. (I'm sure well-received - ha!)

I was at the grocery store today thinking "Would I be sad if X keeled over and died tomorrow?" I came to the conclusion no, not really. (which probably means I'll be hit by a bus this weekend). I was also thinking how you hear "if you love someone, set them free" so they can find their own happiness. Does anybody really buy that? I'd say only if I was looking to get out it too.

Anyway, on to the ability to keep paying the mortgage...

I scheduled an informational phone interview for tomorrow with the hiring VP at one of our competitor's. I have known and worked with him before for several years. I ran into someone who works there now who I also used to work with at the trade show in VA and she let me know a position was open for my existing territory. It's a competitive arena so I want to get more info. My company has been going through dramatic changes recently and will take a year or so to determine the direction. However, I have very good standing and have weathered everything OK so far. I don't want to make a move unless there is really good incentive.

Last night, I was reading that new relationships post-divorce are usually transitory and short-lived. So that gives me something to look forward to... I'd rather have a poke in the eye with a sharp stick than go through dating shennaigans again.

A little meh today...but will get through it.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

I love your posts when you rant a little.

You will be happy again. I have no doubt about that.

And I am sure your wife is nice, attractive and educated. After all you were attracted to her.

But she had to be stupid. No, let me be nice and say she has issues that prevent her from being committed. 

Committed to what you say?

Committed from being a whole person. A whole person that is happy in life just being in their own skin.

She is unable to derive joy from her husband.
She is unable to derive joy from her marriage.
She is unable to derive joy from her children.
She is unable to derive joy from her job. Oh yes, it is true no matter what she tells you.
She is unable to derive joy from her own family let alone your family.

So the nice houses, nice lifestyle, gret husband, nice combined income and well rounded family actually give her no happiness.

How sad is that Soca?

And I do not think her new found single lifestyle is going to make her happy either.......

But it will probbly take her another 12 years and a few partners before that realization hits her.

Focus on you. Focus on your happiness. Start each day with that thought.

And if you are not ready to start dating then buy a cute little dog. Chicks love em and your kids will too.....

HM64


----------



## angelpixie

I agree, HM -- Soca, rant away! You deserve it. Just look both ways before you cross the street this weekend, and you should be fine. 

And HM -- Besides describing Soca's ex, I think you described my ex, and many others' exes on TAM, too. Patterns, patterns, everywhere...


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> I love your posts when you rant a little.
> 
> You will be happy again. I have no doubt about that.
> 
> And I am sure your wife is nice, attractive and educated. After all you were attracted to her.
> 
> But she had to be stupid. No, let me be nice and say she has issues that prevent her from being committed.
> 
> Committed to what you say?
> 
> Committed from being a whole person. A whole person that is happy in life just being in their own skin.
> 
> She is unable to derive joy from her husband.
> She is unable to derive joy from her marriage.
> She is unable to derive joy from her children.
> She is unable to derive joy from her job. Oh yes, it is true no matter what she tells you.
> She is unable to derive joy from her own family let alone your family.
> 
> So the nice houses, nice lifestyle, gret husband, nice combined income and well rounded family actually give her no happiness.
> 
> How sad is that Soca?
> 
> And I do not think her new found single lifestyle is going to make her happy either.......
> 
> But it will probbly take her another 12 years and a few partners before that realization hits her.
> 
> Focus on you. Focus on your happiness. Start each day with that thought.
> 
> And if you are not ready to start dating then buy a cute little dog. Chicks love em and your kids will too.....
> 
> HM64


Happy....

Again.... this is a woman that could not conceive.

Despite his faults, this is a husband who willingly accepted donor eggs and paid to have them implanted in her so she could experience carrying a child and giving birth.

Sociopath


----------



## Awakening2012

happyman64 said:


> No, let me be nice and say she has issues that prevent her from being committed.


I love this, HM -- great post!

Soca, here's a Lotus tree to assist with your meditation on what an excellent life you are going to have


----------



## soca70

Thanks, A12! I'm having this laser-light face treatment at the dermatologist next Tue so I'm hoping I don't come out looking like Buddha there!


----------



## doureallycare2

ok guys, I sold my soul today and all I can use for an excuse is I was desperate. Droped off my car this morning to a mechanic my sister-n-law recommended and she said if I wanted a good discount just falsh the girls. so I did... now I have a date to night ......ugh......but got front and rear brakes done, roters, summer tires on, left side wheel bearing, right side tie rod, alignment and oil change for $275. selling my self for car care....a new low...


----------



## Awakening2012

DYRC, are you OK? This does not sound like you, and is sort of a random thing to post on this thread? You don't have to date anyone you don't want to...

Concerned, A12


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Thanks, A12! I'm having this laser-light face treatment at the dermatologist next Tue so I'm hoping I don't come out looking like Buddha there!


Good for you, getting yourself spruced up for when you're ready to be back on the marketplace -- love it! I hear it is important to stay out of the sun for awhile after those treatments but results can be very pleasing. You do so much for your family and kids, it is nice to hear you are doing something for YOU 

Cheers, - A12


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Good for you, getting yourself spruced up for when you're ready to be back on the marketplace -- love it! I hear it is important to stay out of the sun for awhile after those treatments but results can be very pleasing. You do so much for your family and kids, it is nice to hear you are doing something for YOU
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Thanks, A12. I lifeguarded for 6 years in high school and college and lived at the beach for several years in California. I had a spot on my face biopsied last month and it came back pre-cancerous so I'm going with this treatment option to take care of a multitude of past sins.

I tried exchanging sexual favors for discounts but got no takers.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> I tried exchanging sexual favors for discounts but got no takers.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## happyman64

> I tried exchanging sexual favors for discounts but got no takers.


*The key is you tried!*

🙈🙉🙊


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> *The key is you tried!*
> 
> 🙈🙉🙊


Wait until they get a look at his newly lasered mug.


----------



## soca70

Well another Family Movie Night. X came over about an hour after I picked up the boys. Pizza delivered. Tried something a little new with a more advanced movie - "The Goonies" - Corey Feldman (1985). Scared the he!! out of them so we had to switch it off and retire to Nickelodeon in the playroom. X leaves as she's having coffee with the out-of-state X-friend who's been coming into town for an event from an account here she kept (event planning). X lets me know they are thinking of moving back here. Ordinarily, I'd be thrilled as we used to do a lot with this couple. Now I'm hoping they pick a different part of town if they do relocate.

I had picked up my Sertraline (anti-anxiety) meds today and had the bottle on the kitchen island. My one boy asks, "What's this for?" I say, "Something that helps me feel better." He says, "I think I need some too." Oy!

Went to the gym earlier today, worked, etc. I had the one hour informational interview with that competitive company. I know several people in the sales group and have known/worked with this hiring VP for 5 years. I was ambivalent about this initially but after this conversation, I see some good upside potential. This week was pretty disappointing in terms of the direction my current company is going. They can't seem to put the pieces together. So next steps are the formality of sending a resume on Monday and I have scheduled a call with a colleague of mine who works there in FL for Monday as well. My instinct says the choice is mine on whether to take this position. VP wants someone onboard by mid-May so this would be a fast decision I'd need to make. Might as well change my entire life all at once!

So tomorrow's agenda: 1) soccer practice, 2) a playdate I scheduled today for tomorrow afternoon, 3) X comes over at 4:00 PM to work with me on some big projects for the boys that are due on Monday.


----------



## doureallycare2

Sorry for that random post, I was pretty bumed..... stbxh had come over and didnt offer any help..(to be expected I guess) He did do some fishing about court on tuesday, he said his lawyer didnt give him a location, time or anything. Then I had to ask my son for a ride to the dealer ship only to wait there for 2 hours before the manager came out with an 800 dollor estemete which I didnt have... he gave me his order of what should be the priority and I said I only had about 250, so he did some figuring and came back to me and said if I could do around 275 and dinner that night I had a deal all the work would get done. I think my jaw dropped to the floor but I said ok Ill meet you there though. (And you saw my regreatful rant at the end of all that... )


----------



## doureallycare2

Socca... Gonnies, hahaha, my boys loved that movie but it was kind of scary for them at the same time. As far as the med thing with your son has he had any kind of outward anixity about whats going on with the seperation?


----------



## Orpheus

Soca,

pour yourself into the job stuff. it's the one thing you have given yourself domain over. that chaos is actually a great distractor for you. glad to see you're getting angry and fed up. that's a good sign! "happiness" is only a few hills and valleys beyond that.

good luck at the dr.'s and get that resume in!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Well another Family Movie Night. X came over about an hour after I picked up the boys. Pizza delivered. Tried something a little new with a more advanced movie - "The Goonies" - Corey Feldman (1985). Scared the he!! out of them so we had to switch it off and retire to Nickelodeon in the playroom. X leaves as she's having coffee with the out-of-state X-friend who's been coming into town for an event from an account here she kept (event planning). X lets me know they are thinking of moving back here. Ordinarily, I'd be thrilled as we used to do a lot with this couple. Now I'm hoping they pick a different part of town if they do relocate.
> 
> I had picked up my Sertraline (anti-anxiety) meds today and had the bottle on the kitchen island. My one boy asks, "What's this for?" I say, "Something that helps me feel better." He says, "I think I need some too." Oy!
> 
> Went to the gym earlier today, worked, etc. I had the one hour informational interview with that competitive company. I know several people in the sales group and have known/worked with this hiring VP for 5 years. I was ambivalent about this initially but after this conversation, I see some good upside potential. This week was pretty disappointing in terms of the direction my current company is going. They can't seem to put the pieces together. So next steps are the formality of sending a resume on Monday and I have scheduled a call with a colleague of mine who works there in FL for Monday as well. My instinct says the choice is mine on whether to take this position. VP wants someone onboard by mid-May so this would be a fast decision I'd need to make. Might as well change my entire life all at once!
> 
> So tomorrow's agenda: 1) soccer practice, 2) a playdate I scheduled today for tomorrow afternoon, 3) X comes over at 4:00 PM to work with me on some big projects for the boys that are due on Monday.


The decisions are always fast when they really want you.


----------



## Awakening2012

doureallycare2 said:


> Sorry for that random post, I was pretty bumed..... stbxh had come over and didnt offer any help..(to be expected I guess) He did do some fishing about court on tuesday, he said his lawyer didnt give him a location, time or anything. Then I had to ask my son for a ride to the dealer ship only to wait there for 2 hours before the manager came out with an 800 dollor estemete which I didnt have... he gave me his order of what should be the priority and I said I only had about 250, so he did some figuring and came back to me and said if I could do around 275 and dinner that night I had a deal all the work would get done. I think my jaw dropped to the floor but I said ok Ill meet you there though. (And you saw my regreatful rant at the end of all that... )


Glad you are OK, and got your car fixed -- I hope at least you got a nice dinner out it and and the "date" wasn't awful.

Hugs,- A12


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> Oh, where is my lotus tree?
> 
> Just got off the phone with the boys as they are over at X's rental tonight but will be back tomorrow. They sounded pretty down not to be together.
> 
> X came over at 4:30 today to pick up blankets and sleeping buddies as she has returned from Las Vegas (and had sent me chirpy little texts detailing the trip for two days - "Can't believe I'm in Vegas and going to bed at 8 PM!" and the like).
> 
> So I get the boys' stuff together and she says "You're acting weird." I really aim for indifference but the annoyance and resentment bubble over sometimes. "No, I just don't like the idea of the boys leaving their home."
> 
> A couple of days ago, X was going on about how this will be a lesson for them to learn to live with less. Frankly, f**k that. X has lived in $500K+ houses (our LA house was $1.2M) for over 12 years with me but is now going to "teach" the kids? She can spin the fact that all she's got now is a 900 sq ft apartment any way she wants but the fact is that in this school district she's screwed getting anything decent that she can afford solo.
> 
> I know I've gotten 2X4's on this before but it chaps my hide to have busted my tail for years to get to this point and now it's regarded disdainfully. I didn't hear anybody saying "no" to this previously. I told the X a few days ago that what the living arrangement she had was not satisfactory for any long-term plan for the boys so prepare accordingly. Of course I have no say on that but I did get my thoughts out there. (I'm sure well-received - ha!)
> 
> I was at the grocery store today thinking "Would I be sad if X keeled over and died tomorrow?" I came to the conclusion no, not really. (which probably means I'll be hit by a bus this weekend). I was also thinking how you hear "if you love someone, set them free" so they can find their own happiness. Does anybody really buy that? I'd say only if I was looking to get out it too.
> 
> Anyway, on to the ability to keep paying the mortgage...
> 
> I scheduled an informational phone interview for tomorrow with the hiring VP at one of our competitor's. I have known and worked with him before for several years. I ran into someone who works there now who I also used to work with at the trade show in VA and she let me know a position was open for my existing territory. It's a competitive arena so I want to get more info. My company has been going through dramatic changes recently and will take a year or so to determine the direction. However, I have very good standing and have weathered everything OK so far. I don't want to make a move unless there is really good incentive.
> 
> Last night, I was reading that new relationships post-divorce are usually transitory and short-lived. So that gives me something to look forward to... I'd rather have a poke in the eye with a sharp stick than go through dating shennaigans again.
> 
> A little meh today...but will get through it.



looks like all four of you are slowly adjusting to your new lives. of course only one of you wanted this but the other three just have to go along with it. i really think that you should not respond at all when she questions you being about how you are. just look at her incredulously as though it is the most absurd thing in the world. if she continues questioning you, just dont bother answering. yes you have to be cooperative but you dont have to be friends and pretend it is all hunky dory and your new arrangements show that she was right all along. it is all fine.

she seems a major cake eater. wanting friendly banter and support from you whilst leaving you for not discernible or sensible reason.

however, i think you will feel pretty horrible if she keeled over tomorrow. you are not the person without empathy or emotion here. she is. 

will you have to move to a new state or city if you get another job?


----------



## soca70

Thanks guys for touching base!

I scheduled a family therapy appt for tomorrow morning with the one son who seems to be having some anxiety. I knew he would be the one who did as he was always concerned about where everyone was, being togther all 4 of us, etc. X is coming along too so we can all discuss as well.

This weekend went according to plan. Saturday - Soccer practice (I think I have one who has found is calling which was good to see as football was a disaster for him this past fall), lunch out with the boys at Steak n Shake, a kickball group playdate, X came over for a few hours to work on some of the boys projects for school due tomorrow. A little friction at the end regarding some framed black and white baby portraits that I gave as a b-day gift 5 years ago but now reluctant to part with yet. Trying to see if I can get reprints made. X wants them before MIL arrives so the apartment is "complete".

Sunday - morning baths, church, lunch out. X had volunteered to come over and take the boys to a birthday party this afternoon while I worked on my resume/cover which was very helpful and I got that out to the hiring VP. Homework, then "Peter Pan" and some of "The Lion King", then bed. Some comments about how the rental is old and scary and my one boy has not pooped there yet as he is afraid of possible bugs. I said "It's like the condo in Cape Cod this summer" which was replied "No that was nice, this isn't". I assured them it was still being worked on. I should have said "Learn to live with less!" 

This work position can be based anywhere on the East Coast (which I have managed to convince "powers that be" for 7 years that Columbus qualifies as such) so no need to relocate. I have a call tomorrow afternoon with a former colleague that works there in Miami for some feedback. Just taking the appropriate steps and will evaluate as I go.

X and I seem to be working a schedule that is fine for now. Yes, cake eating but on the other hand, so am I so I can't throw stones. The simple fact is at this point we still need each other.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> The simple fact is at this point we still need each other.


Yes you do. And the boys need both of you as well.

How was the laser surgery?


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Thanks guys for touching base!
> 
> I scheduled a family therapy appt for tomorrow morning with the one son who seems to be having some anxiety. I knew he would be the one who did as he was always concerned about where everyone was, being togther all 4 of us, etc. X is coming along too so we can all discuss as well.
> .


In my divorce care class i took they talked about how a parent really had to decern for them selves if a young child needed therepy. depending on the age I guess its not always helpful. I think you have shown a lot of wisdom and insight with your children so I hope you both can agree to a plan that is right for your s.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Yes you do. And the boys need both of you as well.
> 
> How was the laser surgery?


HM, thanks for asking. It's scheduled for tomorrow morning.


----------



## happyman64

Good Luck on the surgery. I hope it works out well for you.


----------



## soca70

Busy day.

My one boy had a presentation this morning at school "all about him" and his family, activities, etc. X and I both went. I had just spoken with this teacher last week about the situation and felt somewhat awkward. He did fine though and seemed to enjoy it.

Later that morning, X and I picked him up for therapy appt. Good news is she said he's doing well and seems to be OK and that we are doing/saying the right things. She did not recommend him coming back in unless an issue comes up.

Son, X, and I had lunch and then I brought him back to school. Had a 45 minute conversation with my former colleague in Miami about the position I'm exploring and that went well. He said he told the hiring VP that I would be a great fit if they can get me to come on board. Nice to hear.

Gym, then quick mow of the grass, picked up boys at school, McDonald's, gymnastics, back home, "Dog Whisperer", and bed. Boys just like to run around wild right before bed. I asked how bed was going over at the rental and they said a book then they go to sleep. I asked why they cannot do that here. Response - "We're not comfortable enough over there yet."

Speaking of rental, I let X know that S___ had said it was old, scary, with some peeling walls, and he won't poop there. X replied "well you know how he is with the bathroom anyway so what did you say?" I said, "I told him to learn to live with less." and then got out of the car.

Later at the therapist's, I went in alone first for 10 minutes for a quick update, then come back into the lobby while my son goes in. X is sitting across from me and says snarkily, "Did you tell the therapist about my crappy apartment?" So I can see I have touched a nerve...


----------



## angelpixie

Hi, Soca -- just catching up on things with you. Good luck with the laser surgery tomorrow. Glad the therapy appt and the job call were both positive! :smthumbup:


----------



## doureallycare2

good luck... heal fast...

I have court in 2 hours.. shaking Im so nervous.


----------



## soca70

Had the treatment at the dermatologist this morning. Realized I had no idea what I had opted for . It wasn't a laser but what's called Photodynamic (Blu Light) Therapy with Levulon (sp?). Which meant smeraing this Levulon photo-sensitive gel on my face and sitting in the lobby for an hour while it activated and then 16 minutes in a facial tanning-booth looking thing. Not the most pleasant experience as it feels like you are getting a major sunburn. Then indoors slathered with sunscreen and aloe for 48 hours while your entire face turns as red as a tomato. By Day 4, it's supposed to peel off and good-bye sun-damage and fresh new pink skin.

Which means I have been sitting at home alone in the dark with the shades drawn as even the skylight was burning my face and even lamps, TVs, etc can burn. Talk about a depressing environment. There's a TAM moment for you! 

However, my parents came over and brought me lunch and my dad brought some weed kill for the yard which he applied as I'm sitting here like I'm in a Twilight movie for the next couple of days. (I swear trhis damn yard is going to end up killing` me - it runs through this entire tale). We ended up talking about the recent melee on Mt Everest which has led me to watching these Mt Everest National Geographic episodes on youtube for this evening's entertainment.

X has the kids tonight as I cannot take them to school tomorrow. I asked her to volunteer tomorrow for the science museum field trip as the boys really wanted one of us to go and she's accompanying them. Talked to my one son this evening and he sounded very sad not to see me but we will be having dinner tomorrow night over here.

X stopped by to pick up some items and inspected my face. I said, "You know it's supposed to help with enlarged pores as well" (knowing someone's a little sensitive on that subject ). However, it was taken as helpful advice and now she wants to see my end result and whether it's an option to investigate. 

Apparently, Day 2 is when this really hits but so far it's been somewhat uncomfortable but very bearable. I did, however, have to wait until dark to take the trash out to the curb. On the plus side, it's taken my mind off the D.


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## happyman64

I hope you will do a before and after shot because I am so curious about the results.

I hope you feel better soon.


----------



## angelpixie

Wow, that sounds like a real ordeal, Soca! I hope you can get through tomorrow OK. I'm glad ExW is helping you with the boys. Somehow, I don't know if she'd go through all you are just to get rid of enlarged pores. They make special make-up for that, after all. 

I have this mental picture of you sitting in a totally dark room, only the light of your computer screen (brightness turned down as low as possible, of course) illuminating the cave-like atmosphere. Can you at least have, oh, I don't know, something sunny like a pina colada or, something like that? 

My poor DS had to mow part of our yard this evening while it was snowing!


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I hope you will do a before and after shot because I am so curious about the results.
> 
> I hope you feel better soon.


HM - much better today, thanks. The dermatologist is doing before and after shots. I won't have the guts to post mine personally but there are quite a few pre/post images online under PDT or Blu Light therapy.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> I have this mental picture of you sitting in a totally dark room, only the light of your computer screen (brightness turned down as low as possible, of course) illuminating the cave-like atmosphere. QUOTE]
> 
> And you would be right on the money!  In a way, it was somewhat relaxing and contemplative.
> 
> Today, much better even though it was cautioned could have gotten much worse. No real discomfort. Indoors again. My mom came over for lunch and brought some things for the boys like soccer socks, etc. Was able to concentrate on work again.
> 
> I had asked X to bring the boys over for dinner so we all hung out for about an hour and a half. Boys were fascinated by the idea of the light "burning" my face and kept warning me away from the windows and front door. Trying to firm up the weekend plans but am having to play this by ear as I'm not sure how this will go.
> 
> Caught up with XGF in San Diego and talk about a visit out here later this spring or summer.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> HM - much better today, thanks. The dermatologist is doing before and after shots. I won't have the guts to post mine personally but there are quite a few pre/post images online under PDT or Blu Light therapy.


I am going to check it out.

And you have plenty of guts in my book Soca.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I am going to check it out.
> 
> And you have plenty of guts in my book Soca.


If you talk to your doctor or dermatologist, this is a treatment option for Actinic Keratosis which is very common. There are other treatments available as well but can either leave white marks or take weeks of application. Since this was my face, they recommended this treatment that is also preventative for any future issues.


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## angelpixie

I'm so glad that it didn't live up to the warnings you got. Maybe they amp those up so that when it doesn't turn out as bad, patients can tell others and get them into the treatment, too? Maybe I'm conspiratorial and paranoid?


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> Wow, that sounds like a real ordeal, Soca! I hope you can get through tomorrow OK. I'm glad ExW is helping you with the boys. Somehow, I don't know if she'd go through all you are just to get rid of enlarged pores. They make special make-up for that, after all.
> 
> I have this mental picture of you sitting in a totally dark room, only the light of your computer screen (brightness turned down as low as possible, of course) illuminating the cave-like atmosphere. Can you at least have, oh, I don't know, something sunny like a pina colada or, something like that?
> 
> My poor DS had to mow part of our yard this evening while it was snowing!


Wow so now Im thinking "phantom of the opera" (or that movie with mel gibson where he stayed hidden) and putting you as romatic hero type that has to wait for his true love to bring you to life and into the light. She painted quite a picture for you


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## angelpixie

^^ :rofl:


----------



## Pbartender

doureallycare2 said:


> Wow so now Im thinking "phantom of the opera" (or that movie with mel gibson where he stayed hidden) and putting you as romatic hero type that has to wait for his true love to bring you to life and into the light. She painted quite a picture for you


I was thinking more along the lines of that scene with Jack Nicholson in Batman...

"Mirror... MIRROR!"

:lol:


----------



## soca70

Pbartender said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of that scene with Jack Nicholson in Batman...
> 
> "Mirror... MIRROR!"
> 
> :lol:


That is really quite funny! Please let me assure you the reality is much more mundane.


----------



## soca70

It's a bit more like this...


----------



## angelpixie

And how are your kids dealing with this?


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## doureallycare2

:rofl:


soca70 said:


> It's a bit more like this...


looks good compaired to my x


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, DYRC, that made me laugh.


----------



## angelpixie

Hey, sweetie - you still alive out there?


----------



## soca70

AP - thanks for checking in! Yes alive and somewhat kicking...

X had the boys today so I worked a bit. Couple of conference calls, my company is still trying to figure out a direction so still limbo there with a lot of down time, followed up with my colleague I saw in VA about the status of my conversations with the hiring VP at the other company.

My parents came over for lunch and to help me with the final yard "push" as I have a scout event over at the house on Sunday. Ran to the gardening center to pick up mulch, etc.

Went over to the rental for a bit of "Movie Night" and had dinner with the boys but left at 7:00 PM to get the mulching project done. Boys are coming home tomorrow. My face is peeling and I look somewhat like a burn victim )). Boys and I decided that yes it did look disgusting. I'm actually impressed with myself that I still went out today looking like this.

My mom said to me this afternoon that this whole situation has turned out to be a "wake-up call" for me in being grateful for what I have, putting things in perspective, etc. I agree with that.

So tomorrow, the plan is to re-stain the front porch, touch up paint on some deck railings, and some final odds and ends. I've always gotten great satisfaction out of these little projects. My problem is I'm always scheming for the next big one !


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hey, SoCa, I'll pay your airfare if you come mulch my garden. I don't care if you look scary from your laser, we'll bring you pizza and beer out in the yard.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sorry, forgot, no beer, iced tea.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Sorry, forgot, no beer, iced tea.


At this point, I may be looking forward to passing out in your yard!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Fair enough. There's my old spot under the cherry tree with the beer bottles and cigarette butts. But we will throw a blanket over you.


----------



## angelpixie

Yay! Glad you're feeling better and getting out and about. :yay:


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Yay! Glad you're feeling better and getting out and about. :yay:


Next up - Zoom teeth whitening!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, SoCa, you're going to be so marketable. Watch out, women of Ohio.


----------



## HappyKaty

soca70 said:


> Next up - Zoom teeth whitening!


I'm doing that, tomorrow!


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> I'm doing that, tomorrow!


Let us know how that goes!


----------



## HappyKaty

After the first session... I think she said they are three shades whiter. I go, again, in two weeks.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> After the first session... I think she said they are three shades whiter. I go, again, in two weeks.


Katy - they look great! I hope mine turns out as well.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Morning, SoCa, just checking in, hope you're bearing up okay.


----------



## soca70

Hey BW! Everything's OK here.

Busy day. Boys and I lounged around this morning, played chess (skipped church), then went to Target and World Market to pick up a new outdoor umbrella and some supplies for the scouting event today. Chez Soca is officially ready for summer now. 

Had a bunch of kids running around late this afternoon. Made some tentative plans with our previous best couple friends (Funny how they haven't heard from X in weeks - these are the ones that this didn't set too well with).

My parents came over as my one son wanted to play chess with my dad. For a 6 year old, he's pretty savvy at it and really enjoys it. Ran off to dinner (my parents - "You have got to start cooking for these kids!"). Homework, bath, and bedtime. 

Now just enjoying some downtime. Your day go OK?


----------



## Ceegee

soca70 said:


> Hey BW! Everything's OK here.
> 
> Busy day. Boys and I lounged around this morning, played chess (skipped church), then went to Target and World Market to pick up a new outdoor umbrella and some supplies for the scouting event today. Chez Soca is officially ready for summer now.
> 
> Had a bunch of kids running around late this afternoon. Made some tentative plans with our previous best couple friends (Funny how they haven't heard from X in weeks - these are the ones that this didn't set too well with).
> 
> My parents came over as my one son wanted to play chess with my dad. For a 6 year old, he's pretty savvy at it and really enjoys it. Ran off to dinner (my parents - "You have got to start cooking for these kids!"). Homework, bath, and bedtime.
> 
> Now just enjoying some downtime. Your day go OK?


Soca, I'm so incredibly jealous of your time with kids. You're rocking it.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, your parents are right, you gotta start cooking for those kids. But I hear the same thing, my sister says D3 CANNOT eat pizza every day, or chicken nuggets.


----------



## zillard

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, your parents are right, you gotta start cooking for those kids. But I hear the same thing, my sister says D3 CANNOT eat pizza every day, or chicken nuggets.


Cook those meals WITH them. They eat it up. literally.


----------



## angelpixie

Cook more than you need, then make your own 'frozen dinners' that you can reheat later. 

And Zil has a great idea. In fact, you three can make homemade pizza together. We have a couple stores here that sell fresh dough if you don't want to make your own -- maybe you have those near you, too? The kids can choose and arrange their own toppings, and fresh veggies and your own cheese, meat, etc., will be healthier than buying frozen or restaurant pizza. It's a good compromise.


----------



## karole

And buy a crockpot. Easy to use and lots of recipes available for one pot meals. Plus, you just put it in the crockpot in the morning and your dinner is ready when you get home.


----------



## angelpixie

karole said:


> And buy a crockpot. Easy to use and lots of recipes available for one pot meals. Plus, you just put it in the crockpot in the morning and your dinner is ready when you get home.



I'm glad you brought that up. I was going to, but I didn't want to sound too Suzy Homemaker-y.


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for all of the suggestions! I'm going to look for a a "Cooking for Dummies" class as well.

Ugh, Monday morning. Coming down from a lot of activity the last few days and feeling somewhat depressed, anxious, and alone. I had cut back on the dosage of the anti-anxiety meds but have realized still not a good idea. Plus, unmotivated at work with all the continuing uncertainty. And getting annoyed thinking about X wanting these baby portraits of the boys that line the stairway. I'm thinking "Haven't you taken enough?" So not the best mindset now.

However, I am going to take "contrary action" and get some things moving this week to rectify this.

So the week's personal goals:

1. Find and register for a remedial cooking class
2. Follow up with my friend from yesterday and make plans for Thursday
3. Follow up with said friend to get contact info of guy who plays in the church saxophone quartet who is also in a local band to get info on how to join (we discussed this yesterday)
4. Schedule teeth whitening appointment for later this month

OK, a do-able list and one that will be productive towards some goals. Now bring on the caffeine and nicotine!


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> Guys - thanks for all of the suggestions! I'm going to look for a a "Cooking for Dummies" class as well.


Just what I was going to recommend... Learn some of the basic cooking skills and tricks that most people don't bother to, then get yourself some good cookbooks.

For vast majority of recipes, cooking from scratch doesn't take that much more time, is not that difficult, is usually less expensive, is a lot healthier, and tastes better to boot.

It's a hobby of sorts for me for a long time... For me, it's a great way to unwind at the end of the day. I'll have D13 and S15 help out to teach them a few cooking skills, too, or they'll hang out in the kitchen with me and chat.

And with only a few exceptions, they love just about everything I/we cook.

Last night, we made homemade quiche Lorraine ("Real Men don't eat quiche... They eat bacon and egg pie!" ) and a spinach salad, as a special request by S15 for his celebratory pre-birthday dinner.


----------



## soca70

OK - so quick update...

Just registered for a 3 week class beginning next week at Sur La Table called "How to Cook Everything". Fundamentals of grains, meat, and seafood. Hands on 2 1/2 hour classes. Looks good and could be fun. Pricey but hopefully worth it.

And scheduled impressions appointment for this Thursday with the dentist.

Off to a good start!


----------



## happyman64

Excellent. I wish we lived closer because I would go with you.

I can cook as long as it is on the grill.

But I am getting better.

Have fun.


----------



## Ceegee

soca70 said:


> OK - so quick update...
> 
> Just registered for a 3 week class beginning next week at Sur La Table called "How to Cook Everything". Fundamentals of grains, meat, and seafood. Hands on 2 1/2 hour classes. Looks good and could be fun. Pricey but hopefully worth it.
> 
> And scheduled impressions appointment for this Thursday with the dentist.
> 
> Off to a good start!


Being able to cook is also sexy to women. Just food for thought.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Being able to cook is also sexy to women. Just food for thought.


Yes. It is!

As long as you still insist that they cook for you when you want them to.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, you are the man. Every time I read your thread, I get inspired by your ability to somehow keep it all together.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, you are the man. Every time I read your thread, I get inspired by your ability to somehow keep it all together.


Thanks, BW, for your continued support! Really, I have no other choice as you are also realizing...

So last night, X came over to see the boys after we got back from dinner. We skipped gymnastics as no one was "feeling" it including me.

After X left, my one boy is telling me he doesn't want to live in two houses and how his family is so compliacted now. Hard to keep the resentment in check. Watching my kids in pain really eats at me. I try to make the reasssuring statements but it sounds hollow to me.

This morning, my other boy asked me to come to the circus with X and XMIL and his brother this weekend (XMIL comes into town tomorrow thru Sun). No can do on that one. 

However, the elephants come in to town tonight via train and they walk up our main street to the downtown arena so X and I are taking them over to the train stop for this (it's a little event here).

Just received a call from other company VP wanting to structure an offer for me. Will call back this afternoon to discuss. Of course, when the "rubber hits the road", I'm hesitant to make a big change right now. But will see what it is and evaluate accordingly.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hey Soca - 

Great news on the possible head-hunter job offer, whether you consider it or not, it must feel good to be in demand!

So are you OK with X going with you and the kids to see the elephant walk? Seems like you should get to do that without her, since she's doing the circus thing this weekend.

Best,- A12


----------



## Bullwinkle

Elephants walking through small town Ohio. I just couldn't like this any more.


----------



## doureallycare2

Ceegee said:


> Being able to cook is also sexy to women. Just food for thought.


Hello everyone, missed you while I off line.... glad your learning to cook socca. I love to brag about how good of cooks my two sons are and it started with letting them help me cook. when they were young they especially liked helping me tenderize the meat and they also loved to make and eat homemade applesauce. another thought is to trade skills with a friend. I would luv to show someone how to make a dish if they would show me how to check oil or fill my tires up with out being worried I was going to pop them.. lol....


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCA, where you been, man, I've looked for your update.... we know you're lurking out in the garage - put out that damned cigarette and let us know what's going on.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCA, where you been, man, I've looked for your update.... we know you're lurking out in the garage - put out that damned cigarette and let us know what's going on.


Hey BW! Thanks for checking in. 

Kind of a weird thing happened. For some reason, I came across a video on youtube Tue Night showing an aspect of the 9/11 attacks that I had heard about a bit but not really seen. Not to go into details, but these were the most disturbing, horrific images. Had trouble getting to sleep. Sent me into a bit of a tailspin and I ended up doing all this 9/11 research online yesterday. Brought me back to that time. My company was based in NYC, we had sales meeting in NYC the week of 9/18 which we went to and I remember flying over the still-smoking Ground Zero. Our anniversary is Nov 2001. I did a bit of isolating as the boys aren't here either.

So an update...elephant arrival turned out to be a no go as it was raining a bit, boys were cranky, they would have been up late, and I didn't want to do it so I nixed it.

XMIL arrived in town yesterday. There was a mothers/grandmothers event at 4:00 PM today at school and X, XMIL, and my mother attended. I showed up to get my mother situated. Had to see XMIL and we said about 2 words to each other. At the end, the boys looked very subdued and sad as they went off with XMIL and X. My mom said I looked pretty uncomfortable, tense, and aggravated by that. The bright spot was X told me that XMIL had to choose between the bottom bunk or the couch last night and had a rough night on the couch plus the boys were up at 6:30 AM (3:30 AM CA time). Well, as they say, you gotta to learn to live with less!

I went out to dinner with my mom. She said that I'm really bothered by how the boys feel about this and would suggest keeping up with the family counselling for us. But also agreed this whole thing sucks.

Earlier today, I had an hour conversation with the VP at the other company reviewing accounts, first 30 days schedule, compensation/benefits, pros/cons, etc and my requirements in order to move over there. I'm to send over these tomorrow which he is agreeable to for 1) 20% higher base 2) upfront signing bonus to cover lost commissions and 3) higher title. I've decided I'm taking this job. My present company is floundering and this "dead time" is killing me mentally while they try to come up with a direction. My boss was talking about a 18-24 month timeframe. I will be insane by then! Of course change and the unknown is a bit unsettling but I think it's the right opportunity and time.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Elephants walking through small town Ohio. I just couldn't like this any more.


I live in a city/area with 1.5 million people. But as I say, a "third-tier US city".


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I live in a city/area with 1.5 million people. But as I say, a "third-tier US city".


I always think Dayton


----------



## Bullwinkle

There you are, we were beginning to think you'd finally gone round the bend and were chasing her around with a piano wire. 

That sucks about your boys being subdued and sad. The whole thing just sucks, it all seems so unnatural. 

Sounds like the right job move, Soca. I know it's always a calculated risk but sometimes you just got to do it. 

I hear you about 9-11. I was in the Pentagon that day. Will never forget.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> I always think Dayton


Close - Columbus. Dayton is on the "Top 10 Dying Cities in the US" list. I went to junior high and high school there in the suburbs.

I left Ohio at 18 for college and thought I'd never move back as the winters suck. The only reason I'm back is X pushed for kids and we couldn't afford Los Angeles and X insisted we move by family. My whole family is actually Southern so my mom and I have been talking about moving back south but we're stuck here because of my sister and niece (who do live in Dayton) and my professional expertise is the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic areas. DC is the most viable southern option but I've heard there are some violent nutjobs that may soon be on the loose.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Close - Columbus. Dayton is on the "Top 10 Dying Cities in the US" list. I went to junior high and high school there in the suburbs.
> 
> I left Ohio at 18 for college and thought I'd never move back as the winters suck. The only reason I'm back is X pushed for kids and we couldn't afford Los Angeles and X insisted we move by family. My whole family is actually Southern so my mom and I have been talking about moving back south but we're stuck here because of my sister and niece (who do live in Dayton) and my professional expertise is the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic areas. DC is the most viable southern option but I've heard there are some violent nutjobs that may soon be on the loose.


You live in Worthington?


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> You live in Worthington?


No. Grandview Heights. But I have close friends who live in Worthington. We originally moved here to Powell up a bit north in Delaware County.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Ha! So true.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> That sucks about your boys being subdued and sad. The whole thing just sucks, it all seems so unnatural.


Yes it does. I asked my mom today, "Does X look happy to you?" She said no, actually she doesn't look good as she's lost too much weight and looks stressed. So I'm guessing the little "house full of love" has not worked it's magic yet.


----------



## Bullwinkle

She's probably miserable. But too proud and determined to change course now. 

Unlike some other threads, with yours I always thought, Jeezus, they could work this out....


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> She's probably miserable. But too proud and determined to change course now.
> 
> Unlike some other threads, with yours I always thought, Jeezus, they could work this out....


Yeah that's where the frustration comes in. But it is what it is.


----------



## Ceegee

Bullwinkle said:


> She's probably miserable. But too proud and determined to change course now.
> 
> Unlike some other threads, with yours I always thought, Jeezus, they could work this out....


This, also, seems to be part of the "script".


----------



## Bullwinkle

I guess you're right.


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> She's probably miserable. But too proud and determined to change course now.
> 
> Unlike some other threads, with yours I always thought, Jeezus, they could work this out....


There is no they. There is only her.

That is the problem.

It here was a they then counseling and two way communication would be options.


----------



## soca70

Ceegee said:


> This, also, seems to be part of the "script".


Ceegee - you'll find in almost all these threads the same words the WS use. It is like a script. Uncanny in a way.


----------



## soca70

OK guys - have a good evening! My mother brought over a book for me - "Life After Divorce - Create a New Beginning" - that I will be using for my bedtime reading. Another departure from my Michael Connelly and Lee Child usual fare...


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> Yes it does. I asked my mom today, "Does X look happy to you?" She said no, actually she doesn't look good as she's lost too much weight and looks stressed. So I'm guessing the little "house full of love" has not worked it's magic yet.


Why is she not happy? is it the stress? perhaps she thought her responsibilities will halve once she divorced. so she can pick and choose the bits she likes. 

Perhaps living in the new rental was not all that it was cracked up to be. Independence not really giving her happiness. now she has to dig deeper to find it.


----------



## soca70

So this morning had my dentist appt which I thought was going to be just for the whitening impressions but they asked if I could block out 2 hours then otherwise I'd have to wait until August. So went ahead and got everything done this morning. Teeth now 7 shades lighter and I'm very happy with the results. Downside is they've ached for 7 hours all day in spite of copious Advil and Tylenol. Seems to be easing though.

Sent over my requirements to other company VP. We'll see how that goes.

Called the boys who are now at Chuck E Cheese. Apparently, one of them has won over "a million tickets"  Barring rain, soccer tomorrow.

Interesting read in this new book. A checklist of warning signs and behaviors signalling an impending divorce. I think we qualified on almost every one. One included avoidance - which I have been guilty of by retreating to the garage. Hindsight on this stuff is 20/20. However, I must have known on some subconscious level what was up. I had lost my wedding ring about a month before D-Day and had said "Maybe we should wait awhile before I get that replaced - ha! ha!" If that wasn't an omen...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hi, Soca, glad to hear things are relatively peaceful. 

I gotta ask - despite all the water that's gone under the bridge, do you find yourself still physically attracted to X?

BW


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Keep flashing those pearly whites everywhere you go from now on.

Chin up, take care of your Mom because she certainly loves you.

HM64


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Earlier today, I had an hour conversation with the VP at the other company reviewing accounts, first 30 days schedule, compensation/benefits, pros/cons, etc and my requirements in order to move over there. I'm to send over these tomorrow which he is agreeable to for 1) 20% higher base 2) upfront signing bonus to cover lost commissions and 3) higher title. I've decided I'm taking this job. My present company is floundering and this "dead time" is killing me mentally while they try to come up with a direction. My boss was talking about a 18-24 month timeframe. I will be insane by then! Of course change and the unknown is a bit unsettling but I think it's the right opportunity and time.


Hi Soca - 

Congrats on the awesome job offer! Great news. How far away will you have to move, and does this affect custody arrangements with your STBXW (or is it in the same area)?

Cheers, - A12


----------



## golfergirl

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi Soca -
> 
> Congrats on the awesome job offer! Great news. How far away will you have to move, and does this affect custody arrangements with your STBXW (or is it in the same area)?
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Long time lurker on this thread. You are like Shamwow with kids. Cool, smart, even if not certain, has a strong sense of confidence about him. Just wondering if your stbx suddenly got it. If she owned everything and showed sincere remorse and made honest effort to smarten the eff up, would you be interested in trying again? I think the day is coming when you will be posed that question. I'm not sure she will be sincere but her discomfort and maybe concern for kids might have her approaching for another chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Chin up, take care of your Mom because she certainly loves you.
> 
> HM64


Yes I took my mom shopping at the outlet mall this afternoon after the boys' soccer and having lunch with my parents. 

My parents moved to Columbus about 5 years ago to be closer to us. My dad has gotten involved with a regular weekly golf group at the club. My mother had been taking care of my grandmother singlehandedly (as an only child) as she transistioned from independent living, assisted living, and then nursing home until she passed a little over a year ago at 98. Since then, my mom has been somewhat at a loss here and has also been trying to establish a new rolse as well. She had knee replacement surgery in October (right after D-Day) which she almost postponed because of all this but I said to go ahead and do it and it has been very successful which is a big positive.

I do enjoy spending time with my parents very much (or as X said an inordinate amount of time ). Today, I asked my dad if we could start playing golf, etc which he's receptive to.

Had dinner with my parents as well. I have retreated in a way to a "safe" place with them during this as I work on the rebuilding steps.

Tomorrow, splitting the day with the boys for Mother's Day activities with my sister and her family and my parents in the afternoon while X does thier thing with XMIL earlier. Boys come back until Wednesday.


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi Soca -
> 
> Congrats on the awesome job offer! Great news. How far away will you have to move, and does this affect custody arrangements with your STBXW (or is it in the same area)?
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Thanks A12 but not an official offer yet but I expect this coming week. Position is also home office-based so yours truly will stay in place here. Territory is primarily Northeast/Mid-Atlantic (which I work now) plus some accounts in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Dallas.


----------



## soca70

golfergirl said:


> Long time lurker on this thread. You are like Shamwow with kids. Cool, smart, even if not certain, has a strong sense of confidence about him. Just wondering if your stbx suddenly got it. If she owned everything and showed sincere remorse and made honest effort to smarten the eff up, would you be interested in trying again? I think the day is coming when you will be posed that question. I'm not sure she will be sincere but her discomfort and maybe concern for kids might have her approaching for another chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey GG, thanks for the post and comments!

I just don't see X making that step. I know this thread screams for that (which I have anticipated previously only to be disappointed). To answer the question, if (a big if) that happened I would be receptive as I now recognize the issues on both sides and would be able to address. I haven't ever seen any wavering though from this path and must move forward accordingly.


----------



## happyman64

It is great having a family that supports you and helps you in times of need.

Do you think your wife was jealous of you that you have a close relationship with your parents/family?

One of the things that attracted me to Mrs Happy was her tight knit family. In fact Soca, they are so tight knit I call them "The Clan".

My wife has 3 siblings. They see each other everyday. They all eat at their parents every day after work. My inlaws have their grand kids at their house everyday after school and then they feed them dinner. They have always done this. On average their are 6 grand kids eating there at any given time. The older kids are in HS or away at college.

When my wife and I married I was willing to commute a little further for work in order to buy her a new house in a lower tax area. Or buy her an older house near her parents.

Well a house across the street came up for sale while my wife was in the hospital. I bought it. SPent more than I wanted to, especially with a 2 nd kid on the way.

My wife was thrilled.

The point of the story Soca is you can never replace family. They have a higher value than any money or property. In tough times they are indispensable.

Your wife has consistently showed you how low she values family IMO.

You have not.

I think you found another quality that you require in your next woman my friend.

Enough of my ramblings.

Enjoy the day tomorrow and have fun with your family.


Do not forget to smile. You paid for it so you better use it a lot! 

HM


----------



## Conrad

Soca's ex-wife is a sociopath

I'm pulling for the ex in San Diego


----------



## Bullwinkle

Checking in, Soca. Hope things are passable.


----------



## soca70

Hey BW! Yes passable. Split Mother's Day events yesterday between X and XMIL with the boys over at the rental, etc and then later in the day with my parents and sister's family. 

My one boy had been asking genealogical questions so I asked my mom to pull out the old pictures of the family which she did. Also, a pretty extensive genealogical report a second cousin did. Of course by this time, the movie "Robots" was on so the kids' historical interest had waned. But I took the report and did some corroboration online and verified that one of our family tree "branches" can be traced back to one of the very first families in America at Jamestown. Matriacrch arrived from England in 1610 and patriarch in 1618. Owned the land where Pocohnatas was in residence for awhile. 

Well, this has piqued my interest and I have spent the day between work, gym, mowing the grass, etc doing additional research and have traced 2 additional branches back to English nobility - one til 1254 and the other until 1300. Not sure where the nobility got lost in translation though .

So my parents and I will be working on some additional genealogical research and compiling it. I would really like to pull all this together in some kind of "official record" for the kids.

X and I had doublebooked kids' activities today so I asked her if she could take the boys to gymnastics tonight while I attended a summer kids program orientation for this program they do. X agreed and I had also asked her to come in and give them baths, etc until I got back about 8:30 PM. She's leaving for another quick work trip to Las vegas tomorrow so I will be keeping the boys here until Thur so this gives them some "face time". Of course, X was out the door within 2 minutes of my arrival as she's stressed about packing, etc for this trip.

So just plugging along for now - waiting to hear back about that other position. Cooking class starts Wed.


----------



## happyman64

We might have to start calling you "Sir" Soca...


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> We might have to start calling you "Sir" Soca...


I'm in favor of Socahontas


----------



## happyman64

Conrad said:


> I'm in favor of Socahontas


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## angelpixie

Conrad said:


> I'm in favor of Socahontas


OK, that nearly made me spit my diet coke at the computer screen. :rofl:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Soca, interesting stuff. Some people I know have gotten into their genealogical histories and invariably find out interesting stuff. 

Your X's current trip to the Vegas, that's got to be a good thing, her out of town for a few days. No drive to the airport this time?

BW


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> I'm in favor of Socahontas


Good one! :smthumbup:


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Your X's current trip to the Vegas, that's got to be a good thing, her out of town for a few days. No drive to the airport this time?
> 
> BW


I had to stop by the rental this morning after drop off at the school and check to see if one of the boys school folders was there as I couldn't find it. X had just gotten out of the shower and was getting dressed for the flight so BW I do understand the "push/pull" thing you decsribe on your thread. No dice on the folder. Also no dice on any airport transport from me.  I did say however, "Have a nice trip" as I'm not totally heartless.


----------



## HopelessArray

What is it about 11 years of marriage that makes people throw it all away? My husband is in the same place as your wife, he's adamant we just don't work and need a divorce, despite not 2 months ago telling people we were better than we've ever been. I'm exercising the court-ordered counseling option, and he has agreed but only because he thinks it will help me come to terms with the divorce, not to save our marriage. We are also currently living together, he has moved into the guest bedroom, and have 2 small children. I tell you all this just so you know you aren't alone. Frankly, I find comfort in the fact that there are others out there and they are surviving this, because sometimes it doesn't feel like I will.


----------



## soca70

HopelessArray said:


> What is it about 11 years of marriage that makes people throw it all away? My husband is in the same place as your wife, he's adamant we just don't work and need a divorce, despite not 2 months ago telling people we were better than we've ever been. I'm exercising the court-ordered counseling option, and he has agreed but only because he thinks it will help me come to terms with the divorce, not to save our marriage. We are also currently living together, he has moved into the guest bedroom, and have 2 small children. I tell you all this just so you know you aren't alone. Frankly, I find comfort in the fact that there are others out there and they are surviving this, because sometimes it doesn't feel like I will.


Thanks, HA, for the post. When this happened, I couldn't imagine getting through this especially with young kids. It was like my worst-case scenario unfolding and I was helpless to change the course. Yes, my X agreed to MC just for me to help transition and not for any pathway to reconcilitation. At that time, I passed if that was the only reason. Maybe in hindsight, maybe something could have come from it. But I don't think so. Good luck with your situation and know you will get through this some way or the other.


----------



## HopelessArray

soca70 said:


> Thanks, HA, for the post. When this happened, I couldn't imagine getting through this especially with young kids. It was like my worst-case scenario unfolding and I was helpless to change the course. Yes, my X agreed to MC just for me to help transition and not for any pathway to reconcilitation. At that time, I passed if that was the only reason. Maybe in hindsight, maybe something could have come from it. But I don't think so. Good luck with your situation and know you will get through this some way or the other.


Worst case scenario pretty much sums it up. It's a nightmare I can't wake up from. It's only been 2 weeks, so I know this is very fresh for me. People say it will get easier. I'm waiting for that day. I just want to get through a day without crying. It's the little things.


----------



## zillard

HopelessArray said:


> What is it about 11 years of marriage that makes people throw it all away? My husband is in the same place as your wife, he's adamant we just don't work and need a divorce, despite not 2 months ago telling people we were better than we've ever been. I'm exercising the court-ordered counseling option, and *he has agreed but only because he thinks it will help me come to terms with the divorce, not to save our marriage.* We are also currently living together, he has moved into the guest bedroom, and have 2 small children. I tell you all this just so you know you aren't alone. Frankly, I find comfort in the fact that there are others out there and they are surviving this, because sometimes it doesn't feel like I will.


My X said this. She wanted separation. After I found out about posOM she told me she just wanted it to ease me out of the M. 

Is there a posOW H.A.?


----------



## Bullwinkle

Very sad, Hopelssarray. We know you are devastated.


----------



## GutPunch

11 years was my craptastic number too.

2 small kids to boot.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

GutPunch said:


> 11 years was my craptastic number too.
> 
> 2 small kids to boot.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We should start a club...


----------



## GutPunch

soca70 said:


> We should start a club...


We can call it TAM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HappyKaty

GutPunch said:


> We can call it TAM
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL!


----------



## HopelessArray

GutPunch said:


> 11 years was my craptastic number too.
> 
> 2 small kids to boot.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eleven seems to be the magic number. I'm sorry to hear that GutPunch, but it is nice to know I'm not alone!


----------



## soca70

So cooking class at Sur La Table last night. I was the first to arrive and asked the assistants "This is for beginners, right? My culinary expertise is now at about chicken nuggets and I can't keep taking my kids out to eat." The reply, "Single dad, yes?" 

Well, the other people in the class didn't seem so beginner-ish to me ("I have a heavy salt palate") and ordinarily I'd have been nervous and intimidated as he!! in this situtation but my recent experiences have proven to be some weird sort of source of strength (or maybe the realization nothing can be as bad as the last several months). I have to learn this stuff so I got right into the mix, mincing ginger, making polenta, roasting a bell pepper, knife skills with shallots, and remarkably asking questions. Our little "team of 4" whipped up an extremely great-tasting "grain meal" of risotto, polenta, and quinoa. I was quite satisfied with my performance - limited as it may have been. Next week - meats!

X back from Vegas late last night and boys over at the rental for 2 nights. However, I'm volunteering at the school tomorrow morning for "Field Day" which my kids are excited about ne being there. Also, volunteered for both of their classes end of year parties (at my mother's insistence to "get out there as you know X does").

Have a follow up call today with other company so will see how that goes.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> So cooking class at Sur La Table last night. I was the first to arrive and asked the assistants "This is for beginners, right? My culinary expertise is now at about chicken nuggets and I can't keep taking my kids out to eat." The reply, "Single dad, yes?"
> 
> Well, the other people in the class didn't seem so beginner-ish to me ("I have a heavy salt palate") and ordinarily I'd have been nervous and intimidated as he!! in this situtation but my recent experiences have proven to be some weird sort of source of strength (or maybe the realization nothing can be as bad as the last several months). I have to learn this stuff so I got right into the mix, mincing ginger, making polenta, roasting a bell pepper, knife skills with shallots, and remarkably asking questions. Our little "team of 4" whipped up an extremely great-tasting "grain meal" of risotto, polenta, and quinoa. I was quite satisfied with my performance - limited as it may have been. Next week - meats!
> 
> X back from Vegas late last night and boys over at the rental for 2 nights. However, I'm volunteering at the school tomorrow morning for "Field Day" which my kids are excited about ne being there. Also, volunteered for both of their classes end of year parties (at my mother's insistence to "get out there as you know X does").
> 
> Have a follow up call today with other company so will see how that goes.


Every bit of that post sounds awesome, Soca! 

I've met a couple single moms at my daughter's school. And THEY initiated conversation. They love to see an involved father. Even better if he's single. 

Excellent to hear about the cooking class. Making good meals isn't really that difficult, once you learn some basics in the kitchen. That will pay off for you (and the boys) in many ways!


----------



## angelpixie

Good for you, Soca!! Proud of you.  And I think you're on to something -- this trial by fire we've been through does seem to make other things not look so bad by comparison.


----------



## soca70

X called a bit ago to check in and asked how the class was last night. Said it sounded like fun and I would have to invite her over for the first meal I served. I said "Why? Because you forced me into this?" and she said "No, as pay-back for 12 years of cooking for you." She almost sounded a bit jealous...ha!


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> X called a bit ago to check in and asked how the class was last night. Said it sounded like fun and *I would have to invite her over for the first meal I served.* I said "Why? Because you forced me into this?" and she said "No, as pay-back for 12 years of cooking for you." She almost sounded a bit jealous...ha!


As if!!


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> As if!!


Oh I would. That would give me more "F You" satisfaction if I can start pulling this off.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Oh I would. That would give me more "F You" satisfaction if I can start pulling this off.


You would invite her?


----------



## angelpixie

Don't waste it on her. 

Even better yet. Invite a nice lady to dinner, and have x stop by to pick up the boys or something while everything's cooking and the place is smelling wonderful. Then be sure to let her know you're cooking it all for someone else.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I've met a couple single moms at my daughter's school. And THEY initiated conversation. They love to see an involved father. Even better if he's single.


I can confirm that... I've had pretty much the same experience.



zillard said:


> Making good meals isn't really that difficult, once you learn some basics in the kitchen. That will pay off for you (and the boys) in many ways!


And I can confirm that, too.


----------



## angelpixie

I could add that you should be wearing a "Kiss the Cook" apron, but I won't.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> Don't waste it on her.
> 
> Even better yet. Invite a nice lady to dinner, and have x stop by to pick up the boys or something while everything's cooking and the place is smelling wonderful. Then be sure to let her know you're cooking it all for someone else.


Perfect

She shouldn't even joke about the obvious resentment she feels about cooking for Soca.

Damn, I cannot stand her.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Perfect
> 
> She shouldn't even joke about the obvious resentment she feels about cooking for Soca.
> 
> Damn, I cannot stand her.


This may have been translated wrong. I think X today expressed a genuine interest and excitement over me doing this. Maybe from a relieving of some guilt or something but definitely a positive reaction. X loves to cook (and also took most of the kitchen items).

Like this past weekend, when X and XMIL had the boys at soccer and I went with my parents as they had not seen them play yet. And X and XMIL walk over 100 yards to come over and talk to me for the majority of the practice. Why?

As my mother says, "I don't think she knows what she wants."


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hey, SoCa, when you get boned up on your cooking skills, pardon the expression, I'll pay your airfare to DC, you can whip up something for D3 and I, the poor kid has been living on pizza and fish sticks.


----------



## angelpixie

He can start doing YouTube videos teaching cooking to single dads. Another way to catch the ladies' attention. Stick with us, Soca, we have plans for you.


----------



## Bullwinkle

We will be expecting the update, SoCa. 

Also, when is the Pricess of Darkness due back in town?


----------



## soca70

My dark cloud returned late last night from Vegas on the desert winds. I stopped by the rental late this afternoon to drop off some of the boys things for the next couple of days (plus the dog).

We talked about the schedule for the boys for this weekend and next as technically the next two weekends are X's on the rotation and the fact I permanently swapped Memorial Day weekend for 4th of July weekend instead of alternating as 4th of July is always a big deal with fireworks on the lake, etc. However, my niece wants to get together with the boys over Memorial Day weekend at the lake also so we're rearranging the schedule to accommodate and pretty much splitting this weekend and next with both of us.

I said I didn't want to get nitpicky on this schedule and willing to be flexible which X agreed to. At the same time, she said we need to have a semi-fixed schedule in order to make individual plans. Of course (2X4) I say "Oh you have plans?" And X says no. So I ask "What have you been doing then?" X - "Nothing. By the time the weekend arrives, I've made no plans with anyone so I've been sitting here on Saturday night alone. I've really got to get out there but I haven't felt like it all." So I say "What about (mutual friend)?" X -" I haven't spoken with her or (mutual couple friends) in weeks." So, interestingly, Soca's social life is in higher gear than X's (which is almost like blind leading the blind).

Well on that note, I "socialized" an idea I've had. Currently, the adjacent kitty-corner house is in foreclosure. I know this due to a lawsuit we are STILL in regarding title as we bought a lot split from the owner and not resolved (3 years later - negatative attitude reason #103). However, we know all the players (the bank, the lawyers, etc) from this process. Bank has not foreclosed yet and really no movement forthcoming. I suggested the possibility of us (X) making an offer to the bank for following reasons:

1. Could create an access through adjoining backyards for boys and keep them in contact with both of us pretty much daily and kind of some "mini-compound".

2. I've wanted to get my hands on this property even if vicariously in order to clean this puppy up as it's a "jewel in the rough" for neighborhood appeal and property value.

3. Good investment if bank would accept a below-market price.

4. Keeps boys close but provides physical separation.

I through in the "bonus" that I would even be willing to help with some of the renovations. X and I are not novices to extensive renovation and X is not afraid of a little elbow grease by any means (probably more so than me actually).

Cons:

1. We're in each other's backyards. I've given this thought and I feel like I could handle this (maybe now but definitely later).

2. Maybe a stretch mortgage-wise for X due to that student loan.

3. We're in each other's backyards.

The reality as I told X is I do not want the boys growing up half the time not in a "real" house and I don't think that's her plan either. However, there's not much on the market here and even small houses needing work wouldn't be that much less than what I think we could negotiate with the bank.

X is not in a position now to do anything (about a year off) but found the idea interesting but sees both the pros/cons as discussed.

On another note, the other company call is scheduled for 1:00 PM tomorrow.


----------



## Conrad

If you ever want to have a life, do not do this.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> If you ever want to have a life, do not do this.


Yes I hear the concern. Something to chew on. Of course this could be part of my history of obessesive schemes...


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yes I hear the concern. Something to chew on. Of course this could be part of my history of obessesive schemes...


The thing that is MOST unattractive to her.

Recipe for disaster.

Filled with covert contracts of expectations for her to perform.

A replay of your marital contract with all the fighting and none of the love.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> The thing that is MOST unattractive to her.
> 
> Recipe for disaster.
> 
> Filled with covert contracts of expectations for her to perform.
> 
> A replay of your marital contract with all the fighting and none of the love.


True. If I pull back to 50K feet, I can see it.


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> My dark cloud returned late last night from Vegas on the desert winds. I stopped by the rental late this afternoon to drop off some of the boys things for the next couple of days (plus the dog).
> 
> We talked about the schedule for the boys for this weekend and next as technically the next two weekends are X's on the rotation and the fact I permanently swapped Memorial Day weekend for 4th of July weekend instead of alternating as 4th of July is always a big deal with fireworks on the lake, etc. However, my niece wants to get together with the boys over Memorial Day weekend at the lake also so we're rearranging the schedule to accommodate and pretty much splitting this weekend and next with both of us.
> 
> I said I didn't want to get nitpicky on this schedule and willing to be flexible which X agreed to. At the same time, she said we need to have a semi-fixed schedule in order to make individual plans. Of course (2X4) I say "Oh you have plans?" And X says no. So I ask "What have you been doing then?" X - "Nothing. By the time the weekend arrives, I've made no plans with anyone so I've been sitting here on Saturday night alone. I've really got to get out there but I haven't felt like it all." So I say "What about (mutual friend)?" X -" I haven't spoken with her or (mutual couple friends) in weeks." So, interestingly, Soca's social life is in higher gear than X's (which is almost like blind leading the blind).
> 
> Well on that note, I "socialized" an idea I've had. Currently, the adjacent kitty-corner house is in foreclosure. I know this due to a lawsuit we are STILL in regarding title as we bought a lot split from the owner and not resolved (3 years later - negatative attitude reason #103). However, we know all the players (the bank, the lawyers, etc) from this process. Bank has not foreclosed yet and really no movement forthcoming. I suggested the possibility of us (X) making an offer to the bank for following reasons:
> 
> 1. Could create an access through adjoining backyards for boys and keep them in contact with both of us pretty much daily and kind of some "mini-compound".
> 
> 2. I've wanted to get my hands on this property even if vicariously in order to clean this puppy up as it's a "jewel in the rough" for neighborhood appeal and property value.
> 
> 3. Good investment if bank would accept a below-market price.
> 
> 4. Keeps boys close but provides physical separation.
> 
> I through in the "bonus" that I would even be willing to help with some of the renovations. X and I are not novices to extensive renovation and X is not afraid of a little elbow grease by any means (probably more so than me actually).
> 
> Cons:
> 
> 1. We're in each other's backyards. I've given this thought and I feel like I could handle this (maybe now but definitely later).
> 
> 2. Maybe a stretch mortgage-wise for X due to that student loan.
> 
> 3. We're in each other's backyards.
> 
> The reality as I told X is I do not want the boys growing up half the time not in a "real" house and I don't think that's her plan either. However, there's not much on the market here and even small houses needing work wouldn't be that much less than what I think we could negotiate with the bank.
> 
> X is not in a position now to do anything (about a year off) but found the idea interesting but sees both the pros/cons as discussed.
> 
> On another note, the other company call is scheduled for 1:00 PM tomorrow.



hold on, why are you regressing? as it is, your XW has a lot of things the way she wanted. part time kids, separate house and XH on call to help when things are a bit hectic. that she is not fully happy has a lot to do with herself. 

If you go for this arrangement you will be in a limbo for years. you should be reducing your contacts and interaction with her as much as is possible. 

if you want to do some DIY work, come to my house. we have lots of jobs going for the enthusiastic diyer ;-)


----------



## Bullwinkle

Have to agree with this sentiment, SoCa. Either reconcile and re-marry this woman and buy this property, or, indeed, REDUCE your contacts.


----------



## Awakening2012

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Recipe for eternal damnation


----------



## angelpixie

I had actually thought about something similar when we were trying to figure out what we were going to do with the marital home. I was approved to buy out ex's share, but didn't really want to move out of my rental, then finish up the few things left on the house, and move again after it sold. Ex didn't have a place to move into, and couldn't buy a place at that time. I'd thought about just renting to him, with the bonus that it would give me a record as a landlord to use if I wanted to buy a duplex or something later. Everyone here advised against it for the same reasons. Luckily, he did end up being able to buy the house from me, and then I got my own. But as things have deteriorated with our relationship, I can see where it would have been horrible dealing with him. 

When you have someone who doesn't respect you as a spouse, or co-parent of your shared children, they will have no qualms about making your life miserable in every other way possible, as well.


Walk away, Soca, walk away.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> I had actually thought about something similar when we were trying to figure out what we were going to do with the marital home. I was approved to buy out ex's share, but didn't really want to move out of my rental, then finish up the few things left on the house, and move again after it sold. Ex didn't have a place to move into, and couldn't buy a place at that time. I'd thought about just renting to him, with the bonus that it would give me a record as a landlord to use if I wanted to buy a duplex or something later. Everyone here advised against it for the same reasons. Luckily, he did end up being able to buy the house from me, and then I got my own. But as things have deteriorated with our relationship, I can see where it would have been horrible dealing with him.
> 
> When you have someone who doesn't respect you as a spouse, or co-parent of your shared children, they will have no qualms about making your life miserable in every other way possible, as well.
> 
> 
> Walk away, Soca, walk away.


Run... Soca... RUN...


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Run... Soca... RUN...


Run, Forrest, RUN! 

OK - moment of weakness. As you guys can maybe tell, I have a history of trying to work out real estate deals. On this one, I thought I had the "solution" to keeping the family together (as much as possible). I can see where this would pose some problems (obviously). Past behavior would be me pushing for this. New behavior is being whacked by 2X4's and acknowledging it and moving on.

This morning I volunteered with about 40 other parents for Field Day at school and worked the "Potato Sack Races" with another dad from one of the boys' classes. Had a great time and watched the school drama unfold in these competitions. You can already see which kids are going to have issues down the line. After the first 4 groups ending in tears for some, we changed the format from individual races to "practice runs" to relays that didn't quite end so there were no "winners" or "losers". This was grades K-3. X called me at the beginning of this with some questions regarding a school outing and what did I want to do, etc.

Received the offer from the other company early this afternoon. Bump in base salary, signing bonus, and higher title. Looking at a start date of June 3 with a week in the Canadian corporate office for training.

So a totally unrecognizable life from a year ago...

Now off to the gym.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Run, Forrest, RUN!
> 
> OK - moment of weakness. As you guys can maybe tell, I have a history of trying to work out real estate deals. On this one, I thought I had the "solution" to keeping the family together (as much as possible). I can see where this would pose some problems (obviously). Past behavior would be me pushing for this. New behavior is being whacked by 2X4's and acknowledging it and moving on.
> 
> This morning I volunteered with about 40 other parents for Field Day at school and worked the "Potato Sack Races" with another dad from one of the boys' classes. Had a great time and watched the school drama unfold in these competitions. You can already see which kids are going to have issues down the line. After the first 4 groups ending in tears for some, we changed the format from individual races to "practice runs" to relays that didn't quite end so there were no "winners" or "losers". This was grades K-3. X called me at the beginning of this with some questions regarding a school outing and what did I want to do, etc.
> 
> Received the offer from the other company early this afternoon. Bump in base salary, signing bonus, and higher title. Looking at a start date of June 3 with a week in the Canadian corporate office for training.
> 
> So a totally unrecognizable life from a year ago...
> 
> Now off to the gym.


Congratulations on all fronts, Soca! Well done! :smthumbup:


----------



## angelpixie

First of all, congrats on the job news! :yay:

Second, I'm glad you had a great time at Field Day.

Third, _stop trying to find solutions to keep the family together_ -- even from a physical proximity standpoint. You're already not that far away from each other, from what I've gathered. And as time goes on, you may wish she was further away, not closer.


----------



## soca70

Thanks, guys!

On the genealogical front, I discovered that ancestor not only owned the land but was the neighbor of Pocahantas, was married 5 times, and was involved in the first breach of contract lawsuit in America. So I guess the apple does not fall from the tree for Socahantas!


----------



## soca70

fall far


----------



## GutPunch

Somebody has got to win or lose or it's not a race.

They should call it potato sack exercise.


----------



## Awakening2012

GutPunch said:


> Somebody has got to win or lose or it's not a race.
> 
> They should call it potato sack exercise.


And give "participation" awards  

Have kids become more competetive, or what?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Thanks, guys!
> 
> On the genealogical front, I discovered that ancestor not only owned the land but was the neighbor of Pocahantas, was married 5 times, and was involved in the first breach of contract lawsuit in America. So I guess the apple does not fall from the tree for Socahantas!


Sounds like a guy with grand schemes.


----------



## zillard

I found out one my ancestors served in the US Senate in the 1800s.

They were probably scheming together.


----------



## Awakening2012

Very interesting and cool to have this family lineage info -- lots of ambition in the family genetics!

Best, A12


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I found out one my ancestors served in the US Senate in the 1800s.
> 
> They were probably scheming together.


And raising taxes


----------



## angelpixie

So, Soca, just to illustrate how fun 'Life After Divorce'TM can be:

I don't know if you remember this post from the Song Title Chain Game:



angelpixie said:


> I Touch Myself -- The Divinyls (someday, I will be drunk enough to karaoke this :rofl


*AP crosses item off Bucket List* :smthumbup: 

ETA: I wasn't even drunk.


----------



## oncehisangel

Good stuff soca


----------



## Maximillian1221

I dont know if you still read this or not TS, but i feel you, through and through, my best wishes to you, and may you find joy and love again or anew... Good Luck~!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hi, SoCa, I've been out of circulation, just wanted to say hi, chin up.

BW


----------



## doureallycare2

So glad some things are looking up for you. It sounds like its in your nature to be the care giver so of course your going to think about trying to keep the family toghether even if its in just what you can control wich may be location. 

Sometimes are healing comes in such small steps we dont even realize were moving forward until we look back and see where we came from. I think you sound so much stronger....


----------



## angelpixie

doureallycare2 said:


> Sometimes are healing comes in such small steps we dont even realize were moving forward until we look back and see where we came from. I think you sound so much stronger....


Yet another brilliant quote I've seen on TAM lately.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Where are you, Soca, hey, you don't get to leave TAM before me, we need your update, man.


----------



## angelpixie

Hopefully, it's just that he's busy with some good things related to his job. *fingers crossed*


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good point, AP.


----------



## soca70

Guys - I'm here. Switched over and bought a personal laptop and am downloading some files off my old work one so out of commission for a bit.


Running off to get boys for a school kindergarten concert tonight.

Will update a bit later. Hope all is well with everyone!


----------



## Bullwinkle

We're here, my man. Keep us posted.


----------



## soca70

Hey guys = thanks for keeping tabs here!

An update...

In a bit of job limbo as I haven't received the official offer paperwork from the new company and I won't resign until I get that squared away. So stalling current customers while planning my exit like downloading my existing customer "Rolodex", etc. to an external hard drive and new personal laptop. This is not my forte so taking some time. Maybe this is how the WASs feel? Detaching and planning the big break unbeknownst to anyone.

Last night, the big kindergarten music performance which went well. My mom actually saved X a seat next to me while I was getting them ready with their classes. My parents and I took the boys out afterward for yogurt with several of their friends. X declined which is good as my dad said he would have stayed in the car.

So cooking class again tonight. Boys over at X. We ended up splitting this weekend so I will take the boys to the lakehouse with their cousin. Technically (contractually), this weekend is X's but we arranged for them to spend 2 days at the lake with me. At church Sunday, choir sang "Kumbaya" so maybe it's fitting?


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> At church Sunday, *choir sang "Kumbaya"* so maybe it's fitting?



Another reason I don't miss going to church.  

Glad things are in a relatively positive holding pattern, StealthSoca.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Another reason I don't miss going to church.
> 
> Glad things are in a relatively positive holding pattern, StealthSoca.


Touched base with other company VP and have call scheduled tomorrow morning to review the final offer. Hopefully I can get everything finalized tomorrow as we all know (the hard way) that limbo situations are difficult and painful.

Successful cooking class even though these people are NOT beginners ("this is my 9th or 10th class"). Am feeling good about myself doing this without passing out as I was reminded by the kids yesterday that I had burned a Kids Cuisine in the microwave before. I've bonded with one of the kitchen assistants and let her know my goal is to be able to cook two meals per week initially with one of these dishes. Good possibility with a herb-rubbed pork loin and a grilled steak so far. Stuck around afterwards to get suggestions on cutting boards, etc. Next week - Fish and Seafood. No wonder people drink wine while cooking - it's stressful!!!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Glad to see you back up on the net, SoCa. 

I was going to make an inappropriate comment about rubbing herbs on loins but thought better of it.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Glad to see you back up on the net, SoCa.
> 
> I was going to make an inappropriate comment about rubbing herbs on loins but thought better of it.



Funny - I've actually been thinking about loins lately as I haven't seen any for quite some time...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sorry. I've sen some lately and look where that led me.


----------



## angelpixie

You two need to do a cooking show together.


----------



## Bullwinkle

LOL, AP. 

SoCa can be like Gordon Ramsey yelling at me and I'll be the guy who bursts into tears when his souffle has fallen.


----------



## soca70

There is a show on Food Network called "Worst Cooks in America". X said I would be perfect for it.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Ha! She'll eat those words someday when you're on Top Chef with your sexy new wife.


----------



## doureallycare2

LOl.. Had to add to a cooking comment. My stbx came over last night.. Walked right in again (that’s another story) and among other things that was said he mentioned casually " I saw that you made spaghetti sauce the other day" I said yes. Latter in the conversation says - "I haven’t eaten yet tonight, Im soooo hungry".

Now on Saturday he threw a phone into my car he never even mentions this..... so I say.. ohhhhh to bad I froze all that spaghetti sauce or I could have offered you some of that... He loves my sauce. What the heck.. Thinks he’s going to still get to eat my cooking? not likely...


----------



## angelpixie

Hmmm...I've heard of 'cake eating,' but we might have to add another category of STBX assh0lery: 'spaghetti sauce eating.'  Good for you for telling him no, DYRC2!


----------



## Awakening2012

doureallycare2 said:


> LOl.. Had to add to a cooking comment. My stbx came over last night.. Walked right in again (that’s another story) and among other things that was said he mentioned casually " I saw that you made spaghetti sauce the other day" I said yes. Latter in the conversation says - "I haven’t eaten yet tonight, Im soooo hungry".
> 
> Now on Saturday he threw a phone into my car he never even mentions this..... so I say.. ohhhhh to bad I froze all that spaghetti sauce or I could have offered you some of that... He loves my sauce. What the heck.. Thinks he’s going to still get to eat my cooking? not likely...


DYRC: Right, no sauce for him! Unless you put some "special" ingredients in a batch for him


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sounds like the story of my life - withhold sex, withhold sauce.


----------



## Awakening2012

Bullwinkle said:


> Sounds like the story of my life - withhold sex, withhold sauce.


Hi BW - 

Look at it this way, you had it good -- shortest false R ever, with no witholding (lucky ****tard). As for sauce, you should follow Soca's example and learn to cook some tasty shanks 

Cheers, A12


----------



## angelpixie

Awakening2012 said:


> As for sauce, you should follow Soca's example and learn to cook for some tasty skanks
> 
> Cheers, A12


Why, A12!!!  






:rofl:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Shanks, skanks, tasty loins rubbed with herbs. I'm all confused and you could knock me down with a feather.


----------



## Awakening2012

Bullwinkle said:


> Shanks, skanks, tasty loins rubbed with herbs. I'm all confused and you could knock me down with a feather.


----------



## angelpixie

That looks awesome!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, A12! Mouth is watering like a dog.


----------



## soca70

With those shanks, Dream the impossible dream...Can that be microwaved? 

This morning spoke with other company VP and hammered out some final details. Received the official paperwork late this afternoon.

Not-so-stealthy Soca had requested my account manager to pull up some contractual info on several accounts that apparently raised eyebrows in the corporate office. My boss scheduled a call today with me to check how I'm doing and that he feels I'm "at risk" for leaving the company. I had a frank conversation (without revealing details) about my concern about the lack of current direction which will result in a 40% reduced income due to lack of commissions. He said my name had been "socialized" to take over one of our major national accounts and he will talk to the President of our company to see what they can do to keep me. However, I'm like a checked out WS at this point as they aren't going to be able to counter. With going to a one-income household, I can't afford to wait any longer for them to get their s**t together. I've worked out a compensation deal that will cover me for 6 months until the sales pipeline ramps up at the new company.

So the travel schedule will ramp up again starting with the first week of June in Calgary, then Atlanta, then NYC, and then Minneapolis. Booked for the month and a good training period with some big events slated. Maybe I'll run into Katy at the Detroit airport. We'll know each other by the pink and blue glow of our laptops. 

In a way, I'm also just looking for a fresh start. I've been with this company for almost 7 years and gone through the ups and downs since the financial crash of 2008. I'm tired of the uncertainty and it added a lot of stress to my marriage and well, here I am...I'm in a very niche market and this was the right opportunity at the right time. What's been good about this situation is that while current company was spinning wheels for 6 months, I've had the time and latitude to get through this personal crisis. I have not shared this with anyone at work and the reality is I could barely pick up a phone for 3 months. At this point, I've recovered enough to reclaim that "fighting spirit" and ready to get back in the fray.

Had dinner with my parents. My mother teared up at the thought of not seeing the boys next month with my travel schedule and X having them. I can probably work out some arrangement for them to stay with my parents some and they can take the boys swimming at their club, etc.

So, the resignation will happen tomorrow and I may be locked out immediately from my internet "devices" so bear with me please if I'm incommunicado for a bit while I get things switched over.


----------



## HappyKaty

I'm out every week, next month, so maybe we'll run into each other for a layover Macchiato.


----------



## HappyKaty

I'd just like to add that I think it's amazing how much you've grown, in regards to the circumstances, over the last two months. I'm so proud of you, dear!


----------



## Awakening2012

HappyKaty said:


> I'd just like to add that I think it's amazing how much you've grown, in regards to the circumstances, over the last two months. I'm so proud of you, dear!


Ditto that!:smthumbup:

Best, - A12


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good on you, SoCa. You seem focused and forward-looking. 

You have grown a lot. Keep it up, bud.


----------



## angelpixie

Excellent news, sweetie! :smthumbup: I can only echo what everyone else here has said. You're doing great. 

Maybe the times you had to be nice to X with your fingers crossed behind your back will pay off now, and she'll let the boys spend time with your folks. I hope so. They'll miss you for sure, and it will be nice to see their grandparents at least. 

Keep us updated when you can!


----------



## soca70

Guys - thanks for the encouragement and support. It really means a lot. You guys have been lifesavers for me through this and I want you to know I've appreciated it very much. 

I feel like I've turned a corner from what has been the most horrendous experience in my life. Only those of us who have gone through this can understand. Never in my wildest imagination could I have pictured pain like this. Really they should give people a heads up on this before they get married. 

I don't feel entirely out of the woods but getting there. BW - the steps I advised you on have been key for me. Taking the contrary action and doing things I had no desire or will to do. Obviously, this is still a journey and I will be sticking with TAM throughout. Kool-Aid sipping aside, this site has been a tremendous resource for me.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Those steps you suggested have been very helpful. But you're right, same for me, this has been horrendous, the most painful thing I've ever experienced, by far.


----------



## Awakening2012

Soca, with your new cooking skills maybe you can attempt the lamb shanks in a crockpot (do you have one? They are great!). Get to a good butcher or farmers' market and you should find them aplenty 

Best, A12 (who wishes tomorrow was Saturday!)


----------



## happyman64

Good Luck tomorrow Soca.

I am actually in the same boat career wise and am looking to make a move.

And when you are in NY a drink or two will be on me.

HM


----------



## Bullwinkle

Let us know if you dropped your resignation, SoCa, and if they threw you out on the sidewalk clutching a cardboard box.


----------



## angelpixie

But if they cut his internet, he may not be able to!


----------



## Bullwinkle

I forgot about the internet, AP. Hopefully he'll wait until 5 O'clock to resign.


----------



## soca70

Guys -I waited until 4:00 PM after the corporate office closed early for the holiday weekend.

Paperwork for new company returned. Arranging travel plans for June already. Also an opportunity for my right-hand technical guy to come with me as well. I'm looking forward to this. Tendered a professional and courteous resignation and my boss wants to discuss on Tue. Had a conference call staff meeting with the new President of my current company which solidified my decision to leave so I'm feeling good about everything.

Had Family Movie Night at the rental. X is hosting a sleep-over with boys' best friend. Movie Night devolved into an impromptu baseball game when another friend stopped by with his dad. Plans tomorrow to meet up with several parents and boys' friends for the "big" Memorial Parade tomorrow which goes down our street. Then boys and I off to the lake house for the rest of the day with my niece and parents and returning Sunday.

Hope everyone enjoys the long weekend!


----------



## happyman64

Good for you Soca. Your future is looking better everyday.


----------



## angelpixie

I'm so glad the job thing is working out so well, Soca! Whew! Sounds like you had a fun night, too. I hope the rest of your weekend goes just as well.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good for you, SoCa. Just what the doctor ordered. To be moving on, to be bettering your professional development, that's great. 

Can you imagine how bad this would all be if you were facing it unemployed? Not just the lack of money and loss of self-esteem, but just the hanging around, the time on your hands to dwell on the misery?


----------



## staystrong

Allright, SoCa! Things are looking up. Enjoy the weekend...


----------



## Orpheus

Hey Handsome, just getting caught up on your saga! Congrats on all the positive external stuff. Interesting that the hiccups involved with that were due to you exercising less concern professionally than you've done in the personal aftermath. just a note.

i'm proud of you and where you're going with your life. you deserve to enjoy all the days from here on out. trust me on this.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Alright, SoCa, it's time for the update. I realize you're probably running tubs and laying out pajamas and, as GutPunch says, "washing asses", but after that, drop us a line

BW


----------



## soca70

BW - I'm here. Saturday morning Memorial Parade which to my kids is akin to Halloween due to the candy thrown. Group of parents and kids got together to watch on the next corner over.

Then X took the boys swimming as the first attendees for Summer 2013 at the city pool (as it was 68 degrees). After about an hour and a half, I loaded them up to our lakehouse for 2 nights. Not really warm but some Slip n Slide action, a little boating, and a lot of fishing. My niece was there also so they had a great time. I ate like crap and have been suffering heartburn accordingly.  (Actually need to watch this as I have lost some hard-earned ground).

Just got back this afternoon and X meets me at the house and asks me to go to the "Epic 3-D" movie with all of us so I did. Dropped the boys off at the rental afterwards but I had to go back and drop some of their stuff off. Hung out for a bit as one of their classmates lives a couple of doors down and they were playing baseball, Lego-swapping, looking at one of our dog's ashes (who died in 2010), etc. X was about to fix dinner for the boys and their friend so I bugged out back home. A little down due to the solitude right now but I often get the "end of weekend blues" in the evening.

So preparing for Calgary next week this coming week - getting my new Brooks Brothers wardrobe out of the cleaners, etc. My boss had called over the weekend to discuss the "exit plan" so will do so tomorrow.

Just plugging away as usual. Hope everyone had some nice time off.


----------



## soca70

And amusing (to me) update on X who discovers after meeting with the Ohio Bar Association on Friday that she will need to take the Ohio bar exam after all. Which is now a pickle as it requires almost 2 months off of work to study for this. Not sure how that will be pulled off. Next exam is in Feb. 

I said that it's probably easier at this point just to stay with the current firm in LA. She said no as she really wants to get with a firm here and go to an office as the loneliness now is pretty unbearable.


----------



## angelpixie

Good job on not saying 'I told you so.'


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Good job on not saying 'I told you so.'


Oh but I wanted to...


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## Bullwinkle

God, loneliness is such a strong emotion, eh, SoCa? And yes, we faithful followers of your thread remember clearly how you told X she needed to take the Ohio Bar Exam a long time ago. 

I hear you about rhe End of Weekend Blues, amigo. Why must it be so hard?


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> God, loneliness is such a strong emotion, eh, SoCa? And yes, we faithful followers of your thread remember clearly how you told X she needed to take the Ohio Bar Exam a long time ago.
> 
> I hear you about rhe End of Weekend Blues, amigo. Why must it be so hard?


Well it just reinforced to me that I was not the sole source of X's unhappiness. As HM64 has said, looks like she'll never be happy. I'd been on this for 7 years and have heard excuse after excuse and well, now it's no longer my problem that her career path is f****d. She did mention that working for a firm here for 2-3 years without an OH license would qualify if she could find a job that would allow for this situation. And is now going to start working the local contacts apparently. Also mentioned maybe taking a lower-paying position to which I replied "No can do with your house buying plans and the boys' bills and college fund..." Well that was my only input and am interested in seeing how this turns out. Unfortunately for X, I am no longer willing to squirrel me and the boys away for days at a time to allow for her schedule.

Yes end of the weekend feeling often equates to an end of the world feeling which is what I'm having a bit of now. However, experience shows that tomorrow will be OK.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Ah, reality. 

I absolutely hate my situation but when I hear of yours, SoCa, it makes me want to weep. Mine is hateful most of the time, albeit the odd bonkathon, but you seem to have to exist in this ungodly netherworld where you are with X frequently. I can honestly tell you, I WOULD LOSE MY MIND. I would end up getting drunk and trying to tear her blouse off or more likely, locking her in a bathroom just because I didn't like her attitude. 

I am really happy for you that this new job deems to be panning out. I too am very blue tonight but, yes, tomorrow is a new day.


----------



## Orpheus

Soca, glad you're firing on all pistons. Good luck up North. I think you have a lot on your plate and you're doing a great job. 

That said, make a date with yourself. Pick a date a couple weeks down the road to sit down and work out Soca 2.0. Take that time to assess immediate and future job stuff. Things you want for the kids. How to continue to pull away from that woman. And how to sculpt out some space for yourself as a man. 

X, e
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> And amusing (to me) update on X who discovers after meeting with the Ohio Bar Association on Friday that she will need to take the Ohio bar exam after all. Which is now a pickle as it requires almost 2 months off of work to study for this. Not sure how that will be pulled off. Next exam is in Feb.
> 
> I said that it's probably easier at this point just to stay with the current firm in LA. She said no as she really wants to get with a firm here and go to an office as the loneliness now is pretty unbearable.


As the Karma Train pulls into the station.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Well it just reinforced to me that I was not the sole source of X's unhappiness. As HM64 has said, looks like she'll never be happy. I'd been on this for 7 years and have heard excuse after excuse and well, now it's no longer my problem that her career path is f****d. She did mention that working for a firm here for 2-3 years without an OH license would qualify if she could find a job that would allow for this situation. And is now going to start working the local contacts apparently. Also mentioned maybe taking a lower-paying position to which I replied "No can do with your house buying plans and the boys' bills and college fund..." Well that was my only input and am interested in seeing how this turns out. Unfortunately for X, I am no longer willing to squirrel me and the boys away for days at a time to allow for her schedule.
> 
> Yes end of the weekend feeling often equates to an end of the world feeling which is what I'm having a bit of now. However, experience shows that tomorrow will be OK.


I also said she is not too bright. But maybe I was wrong. She will never be happy and cannot seem to plan too far past her own nose.

Brains has nothing to do with it at all. THat is just my inclination towards attorneys because a few of mine have taken a great deal of $$$ from me.

So I am correcting myself.

And yes, she will never be happy. The key now is to not put yourself or your boys in any situations where they try to make her happy. Because it will always end in failure.

Now how sad is that thought Soca????

HM64


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> I also said she is not too bright. But maybe I was wrong. She will never be happy and cannot seem to plan too far past her own nose.
> 
> Brains has nothing to do with it at all. THat is just my inclination towards attorneys because a few of mine have taken a great deal of $$$ from me.
> 
> So I am correcting myself.
> 
> And yes, she will never be happy. The key now is to not put yourself or your boys in any situations where they try to make her happy. Because it will always end in failure.
> 
> Now how sad is that thought Soca????
> 
> HM64


I feel so bad for her.

(You know that's a lie)

She's just a miserable wretch of a human being.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> I feel so bad for her.
> 
> (You know that's a lie)
> 
> She's just a miserable wretch of a human being.


Conrad - I think my X rates lower than Frostine for you...a dubious accomplishment.

So today, spent most of the afternoon volunteering and alternating between the 2 boys' end of year parties. X showed up (to make a cameo appearance) for about 15 minutes. Boys were excited I was there. I reviewed my one boy's end of year assessment in depth with his teacher. The reading goal for end of year is Level 4 and he's at a 10 almost a 12. She was very enthusiastic about his abilities (math as well). I will receive my other son's report card tomorrow and I expect him to be on the same level. Very proud 

Got back home and had a debriefing call with my current boss. He had reviewed my last year's 4 month income vs this year and I'm down (due to the company's circumstances) a huge amount. I said "hate to leave but that speaks for itself". He agreed and admitted tome he's also been talking with the VP at this other company. Maybe I'll be seeing again soon. Apparently, HR was to have contacted me to discuss the exit strategy but I haven't heard hide nor hair so I committed to start next week in Calgary for training. 

X has the boys and I dropped off some potted flowers and cards for their teachers tomorrow for last day of school for the boys to bring. X was appreciative as she had not been able to get to that for 4 days. The boys wanted me to go with them for ice cream and yogurt after dinner so we walked over and I took one for ice cream while X took the other for yogurt. Very pleasant (which unfortunately raises the thought of R a bit - push out of mind). Of course, a sour note when X lets me know about big benefit dinner she's attending on Saturday at a table with some church acquaintances to "get herself out there and meet people".

So tomorrow, follow up with dermatologist, buy season pool pass, fill out kids summer program info and return, gym, and cooking class.


----------



## happyman64

> "get herself out there and meet people".


Exactly what you should be doing yourself.

When you are ready though.....

Stop thinking of her Soca. I am a firm believer of letting people hang themselves.

I know it is hard but focus on you and your happiness.


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

It will stop hurting when you stop making yourself vulnerable to her.


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Exactly what you should be doing yourself.
> 
> When you are ready though.....
> 
> Stop thinking of her Soca. I am a firm believer of letting people hang themselves.
> 
> I know it is hard but focus on you and your happiness.


Working on it as hard as I can right now, HM. I need to step it up to the next level though. Right now, I'm concentrating on this job switch plus the boys' activities. However, I feel like progress is being made slowly but surely...


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, if you can get through this, we will build a shrine to you here in DC.


----------



## soca70

I was just thinking (out in my garage office) that for whatever reason, I've gotten to be afraid of my own shadow a bit slowly over the years. Here I am trying to "get out there" now. What the hell has happened?

This tale reads like that of some Midwestern schmuck but I will give you guys a bit of background. 

My professional work background started in Los Angeles with the cable division of a major broadcast television network (my office was adjacent to the studio lot), then a stint at Playboy, and then working for a major cable movie network. I had a group of friends where we'd go to the Four Seasons Beverly Hills for dinner after a press movie premiere as one of my best friend's was the head of publicity for two of the studios. I went to Hawaii every month for work and would bring friends along. At Playboy, I had an office a few doors down from Farrah Fawcett. I know and have worked with people that run television networks and movie studios. I'd hang out with a former Miss Universe occasionally.

And then I met my X. Who had dreams of a white picket fence, kids, etc. And I became convinced that a traditional upbringing for kids was the best and agreed to a move back to the home state of Ohio (which I left at 18 and never looked back on). So the past 12 years has been providing someone else's dream and now being bailed on. 

So I need to remember that I can pull off a cigar smoker in Maui with Playmates, devise a multi-city publicity screening program for movies, secure Coretta Scott King to speak at a launch event, etc. Pulling off a f****g cooking class should be a snap. Jesus, I've got to get the mojo back. This would take me about 5 minutes in Los Angeles as I still have this network but now I'm here and need to start "thinking outside the box".


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I was just thinking (out in my garage office) that for whatever reason, I've gotten to be afraid of my own shadow a bit slowly over the years. Here I am trying to "get out there" now. What the hell has happened?
> 
> This tale reads like that of some Midwestern schmuck but I will give you guys a bit of background.
> 
> My professional work background started in Los Angeles with the cable division of a major broadcast television network (my office was adjacent to the studio lot), then a stint at Playboy, and then working for a major cable movie network. I had a group of friends where we'd go to the Four Seasons Beverly Hills for dinner after a press movie premiere as one of my best friend's was the head of publicity for two of the studios. I went to Hawaii every month for work and would bring friends along. At Playboy, I had an office a few doors down from Farrah Fawcett. I know and have worked with people that run television networks and movie studios. I'd hang out with a former Miss Universe occasionally.
> 
> And then I met my X. Who had dreams of a white picket fence, kids, etc. And I became convinced that a traditional upbringing for kids was the best and agreed to a move back to the home state of Ohio (which I left at 18 and never looked back on). So the past 12 years has been providing someone else's dream and now being bailed on.
> 
> So I need to remember that I can pull off a cigar smoker in Maui with Playmates, devise a multi-city publicity screening program for movies, secure Coretta Scott King to speak at a launch event, etc. Pulling off a f****g cooking class should be a snap. Jesus, I've got to get the mojo back. This would take me about 5 minutes in Los Angeles as I still have this network but now I'm here and need to start "thinking outside the box".


You puzzle me.

Why in the world would you allow yourself to get wrapped up in what such a screwed up goofball thinks of you?

Look at the last 48 hours...

She's LONELY?

C'mon, you have to laugh.

I sure as hell am.

(c'mon redeem yourself... did you have lunch with Farrah?)


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> You puzzle me.
> 
> Why in the world would you allow yourself to get wrapped up in what such a screwed up goofball thinks of you?
> 
> Look at the last 48 hours...
> 
> She's LONELY?
> 
> C'mon, you have to laugh.
> 
> I sure as hell am.
> 
> (c'mon redeem yourself... did you have lunch with Farrah?)


Yes sounds crazy, C. 

What happened is I ended up taking a big career hit after I went to work for a niche business network as a VP that floundered after 2 years in the wake of the recession in 2001-2002. Was forced to enter into a totally unrelated field and I lost my identity of "entertainment executive". Seems shallow but in LA that carries some cache. 

With X, I thought here is the opportunity to "reinvent" myself as a solid, family man. However my self-esteem took a major hit even though I managed to keep the income as high (or higher) for a few years by working my tail off. With X's family dreams, it took a lot of $$$ to make that happen and the pressure has been on me pretty much since. Ohio looked like a good "escape plan" at the time as the cost of raising kids in LA with a house, private school, etc was astronomical. 

So here I am now. Why I am wrapped up in X? Because there is no one else here I know at the level of my friends in CA. Family is the exception but that only takes you so far. Oh X has the same problem but worse as at least I have the family aspect.


----------



## soca70

As for Farrah, no I didn't have lunch with her. The unwritten rule was to leave major talent alone. I did however have numerous lunches/dinners with my former Miss USA/Universe friend. Who had (unbelievably) major self-esteem issues and described herself as a "washed up beauty queen" at 27. Had some weird relationship with some movie director in Thailand.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yes sounds crazy, C.
> 
> What happened is I ended up taking a big career hit after I went to work for a niche business network as a VP that floundered after 2 years in the wake of the recession in 2001-2002. Was forced to enter into a totally unrelated field and I lost my identity of "entertainment executive". Seems shallow but in LA that carries some cache.
> 
> With X, I thought here is the opportunity to "reinvent" myself as a solid, family man. However my self-esteem took a major hit even though I managed to keep the income as high (or higher) for a few years by working my tail off. With X's family dreams, it took a lot of $$$ to make that happen and the pressure has been on me pretty much since. Ohio looked like a good "escape plan" at the time as the cost of raising kids in LA with a house, private school, etc was astronomical.
> 
> So here I am now. Why I am wrapped up in X? Because there is no one else here I know at the level of my friends in CA. Family is the exception but that only takes you so far. Oh X has the same problem but worse as at least I have the family aspect.


Sounds like she was an escape hatch.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, you ever thought about going back to LA?

So houses and schools are more expensive. Youd probably make more money there, right? But your boys are young enough they would adjust. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Conrad

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, you ever thought about going back to LA?
> 
> So houses and schools are more expensive. Youd probably make more money there, right? But your boys are young enough they would adjust.
> 
> Just a thought.


His moniker makes more sense now.


----------



## soca70

OK - I was having a moment last night and that may have been TMI. However, I feel this is a "safe" place and I put it out there. Rest assured, I do not discuss any of this with the kindergarten social circuit. I couldn't think of a better way to turn people off.

But for me, it helps to clarify what went wrong and how to move forward. 

Moving here to Ohio, having kids, etc was a major change of what I thought my "life plan" would be. And when the major stressors arose (financial issues, kids' behavioral issues), the harbored resentment came out and that was directed to X (who of course this was all her idea ). My IC made me take ownership that these were my choices too. So I've struggled for awhile in the transition. X made it pretty clear that she couldn't take it any more. That's why I'm not being so contentious with this as I see how my own issues contributed greatly to our demise.

On a moving forward basis, I put that down as a reminder to myself that I am a very capable person able to handle many different situations and need to re-build that confidence.

As far as moving back to LA, I have passed on the opportunity previously and the reality is I need to accept that chapter is closed. There is no feasible way to afford it. My salary would be the same there or here as would X's. Plus, the boys are in the perfect place for them.

So the upshot is how to move forward here.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> OK - I was having a moment last night and that may have been TMI. However, I feel this is a "safe" place and I put it out there. Rest assured, I do not discuss any of this with the kindergarten social circuit. I couldn't think of a better way to turn people off.
> 
> But for me, it helps to clarify what went wrong and how to move forward.
> 
> Moving here to Ohio, having kids, etc was a major change of what I thought my "life plan" would be. And when the major stressors arose (financial issues, kids' behavioral issues), the harbored resentment came out and that was directed to X (who of course this was all her idea ). My IC made me take ownership that these were my choices too. So I've struggled for awhile in the transition. X made it pretty clear that she couldn't take it any more. That's why I'm not being so contentious with this as I see how my own issues contributed greatly to our demise.
> 
> On a moving forward basis, I put that down as a reminder to myself that I am a very capable person able to handle many different situations and need to re-build that confidence.
> 
> As far as moving back to LA, I have passed on the opportunity previously and the reality is I need to accept that chapter is closed. There is no feasible way to afford it. My salary would be the same there or here as would X's. Plus, the boys are in the perfect place for them.
> 
> So the upshot is how to move forward here.


Soca,

A bit about me.

I lived up in NY for about 10 years.

Love to tell you I was hanging with Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams, but - alas - I was in a couple of middle class neighborhoods in the foothills of the Catskills.

I was amazed at how people live/lived up there. There's almost no earthly way to make the bills. I bought a house for 240k in 1998 and sold it for 345k in 2001.

I mean, get serious.

Utility bills double what they are here. And, don't even ask about insurance. Everywhere you turn somebody wants 500 bucks - for doing almost nothing.

To allow my wife to stay home with the kids, we basically lived "in the red" every month until I got my bonus.

You can imagine how it felt when the tech stock market went to crap in 2000. Nest egg for the future? Down 40% in a heartbeat.

So, I was amenable to returning to the midwest to help care for my aging father.

It was an escape hatch of sorts.

Didn't make me any happier either.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> A bit about me.
> 
> I lived up in NY for about 10 years.
> 
> Love to tell you I was hanging with Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams, but - alas - I was in a couple of middle class neighborhoods in the foothills of the Catskills.
> 
> I was amazed at how people live/lived up there. There's almost no earthly way to make the bills. I bought a house for 240k in 1998 and sold it for 345k in 2001.
> 
> I mean, get serious.
> 
> Utility bills double what they are here. And, don't even ask about insurance. Everywhere you turn somebody wants 500 bucks - for doing almost nothing.
> 
> To allow my wife to stay home with the kids, we basically lived "in the red" every month until I got my bonus.
> 
> You can imagine how it felt when the tech stock market went to crap in 2000. Nest egg for the future? Down 40% in a heartbeat.
> 
> So, I was amenable to returning to the midwest to help care for my aging father.
> 
> It was an escape hatch of sorts.
> 
> Didn't make me any happier either.


Similar here. Our last house we bought in 2002 for $699K ended up owing $800K. Sold for $1.2 M in 2005. That was the escape hatch. 

The business I was in was about to tank in 2005 (I worked for a division of a major European bank specializing in sub-prime mortgages plus personal real estate deals). My dad offered me a position with his company and with the lake house, lower cost of living, etc looked like a good plan with the kids. As soon as we move here, my father gets fired as COO of his company and I'm scrambling for work. Hooked up with former colleagues and got hired by the company I just left for a Northern US sales position. In the middle of all this, the multiple IVF attempts.

Ended up losing serious money when we sold the first Ohio house in 2009. Ironically, pulled it all together financially by D-Day.

Looking back, it was a mess.


----------



## soca70

Stopped by the school today to drop off paperwork for the summer kids' program. Saw one of my boys going out to recess and he asked me to stop by the playground afterwards. I did and talked with him and his friend about going to the water park tomorrow (today is last day of school). They both realized they would be there together and started jumping up and down hugging each other. I wouldn't trade this now for the world...


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> They both realized they would be there together and started jumping up and down hugging each other. I wouldn't trade this now for the world...


This just made me smile. Treasure these moments, Soca.


----------



## staystrong

> And I became convinced that a traditional upbringing for kids was the best and agreed to a move back to the home state of Ohio (which I left at 18 and never looked back on). So the past 12 years has been providing someone else's dream and now being bailed on.


Honestly, it may have been a move you would have agreed to make eventually. A lot of people make that move once they see the benefits to kids.


----------



## Conrad

Many stories on this board, Zillard's, yours, Soca's, etc. of people who moved to fulfill dreams....

Just make sure you own a part of those dreams also.


----------



## Ceegee

soca70 said:


> My professional work background started in Los Angeles with the cable division of a major broadcast television network (my office was adjacent to the studio lot), then a stint at Playboy, and then working for a major cable movie network. I had a group of friends where we'd go to the Four Seasons Beverly Hills for dinner after a press movie premiere as one of my best friend's was the head of publicity for two of the studios. I went to Hawaii every month for work and would bring friends along. At Playboy, I had an office a few doors down from Farrah Fawcett. I know and have worked with people that run television networks and movie studios. I'd hang out with a former Miss Universe occasionally.
> 
> 
> 
> So I need to remember that I can pull off a cigar smoker in Maui with Playmates, devise a multi-city publicity screening program for movies, secure Coretta Scott King to speak at a launch event, etc. Pulling off a f****g cooking class should be a snap. Jesus, I've got to get the mojo back. This would take me about 5 minutes in Los Angeles as I still have this network but now I'm here and need to start "thinking outside the box".


Do you think that Playboy position is still open?


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> So I need to remember that I can pull off a cigar smoker in Maui with Playmates, devise a multi-city publicity screening program for movies, secure Coretta Scott King to speak at a launch event, etc. Pulling off a f****g cooking class should be a snap. Jesus, I've got to get the mojo back.


I'm going to show off just a little, Soca, because I want you to see something that might encourage you...

I'm going to give you the recipe for what I cooked for dinner last night:

Spicy Italian sausages
Potatoes broiled with basil
Tomato and cucumber salad










It's typical of the sort of meal I like to make for my kids... Inexpensive, simple, delicious, and almost entirely made from scratch... often while using up some leftovers from the fridge, as well. Let's begin...

Make sure the shelves in your oven are set about halfway down, and light up the broiler. Set the pan for your potatoes in the oven to pre-heat. Preheat a large pan -- I like to use my cast-iron skillet -- over medium heat on the stove.

While the pans are heating up, wash 6 to 8 medium sized potatoes and chop them into large (~1") chunks.

Pull the potato pan out of the oven, and add 3 or 4 spoonfuls of oil to it -- olive oil is tasty and works nice for these. Add the potatoes, giving them a good stir around the pan to coat them in oil. Return to the oven uncovered. Broil for 20 minutes, stirring them every 5 minutes or so.

Once the potatoes are under the broiler, place the sausages in the skillet. Keep an eye on them, turning them often, until they're browned on all sides. Then, cover the skillet and turn the heat down to low... turn the sausages whenever you stir the potatoes.

In the meantime, while you're waiting for the potatoes and sausages to finish cooking and when you aren't busy stirring them, wash and thickly slice 3 or 4 medium tomatoes and 1 large cucumber. Toss in a bowl with some dressing. (I had a couple handfuls of mixed greens left over in the fridge, which I added to the salad.)

After 20 minutes, the potatoes and sausages should be done. turn off the oven and the stove, and pull the potatoes out. Drop a spoonful or two of butter into the potato pan, and let it melt. Stir the potatoes to coat them with the melted butter, and sprinkle on some flavor... I used dried basil, and little salt and pepper. Crushed rosemary is also pretty tasty.

Don't forget that while you're cooking a meal like this, it's a great time to chat with the kids about their day at school or plans for the weekend or some such.

Done! It only took a little more than half an hour from start to finish (really no worse then most frozen meals, or boxes mixes). It can be cooked off the top of your head. It's delicious. It's a healthy, well-balanced meal. And all together the whole meal probably didn't cost me more than about $5.


----------



## angelpixie

Very cool, Pb! :smthumbup:


----------



## happyman64

Thank God for picture of food PB.

Because if Conrad or Soca wrote anymore about their moves/real estate conundrums, I was going to walk out of this building, get my car, drive to the GW Bridge and jump off it!

In all honesty, if I told you about my conundrum which started on 911 and has not ended yet your hair would fall out of your heads.

But on a positive note my wife is still by my side and my children are happy/healthy.

And in the end that is all that matters.

So lets see some more of those sausages PB....

HM64

PS
Conrad you are right on the money about NY. It is a money pit. I cannot wait to move someday.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> I was just thinking (out in my garage office) that for whatever reason, I've gotten to be afraid of my own shadow a bit slowly over the years. Here I am trying to "get out there" now. What the hell has happened?
> 
> This tale reads like that of some Midwestern schmuck but I will give you guys a bit of background.
> 
> My professional work background started in Los Angeles with the cable division of a major broadcast television network (my office was adjacent to the studio lot), then a stint at Playboy, and then working for a major cable movie network. I had a group of friends where we'd go to the Four Seasons Beverly Hills for dinner after a press movie premiere as one of my best friend's was the head of publicity for two of the studios. I went to Hawaii every month for work and would bring friends along. At Playboy, I had an office a few doors down from Farrah Fawcett. I know and have worked with people that run television networks and movie studios. I'd hang out with a former Miss Universe occasionally.
> 
> And then I met my X. Who had dreams of a white picket fence, kids, etc. And I became convinced that a traditional upbringing for kids was the best and agreed to a move back to the home state of Ohio (which I left at 18 and never looked back on). So the past 12 years has been providing someone else's dream and now being bailed on.
> 
> So I need to remember that I can pull off a cigar smoker in Maui with Playmates, devise a multi-city publicity screening program for movies, secure Coretta Scott King to speak at a launch event, etc. Pulling off a f****g cooking class should be a snap. Jesus, I've got to get the mojo back. This would take me about 5 minutes in Los Angeles as I still have this network but now I'm here and need to start "thinking outside the box".


Hi Soca - 

LOL re: "some Midwestern schmuck" :rofl:

Thanks for telling this part of your story -- amazing! I agree, you don't have to move back to LA to get your mojo back. I was reminded of similar by a friend the other day, who pointed out how happily independent and intrepid I was before getting married. Get your good old self back, I was advised and it makes sense 

Best, A12


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, I understand about what's keeping you in Ohio now. Family should always come first. You passed a fitness test.


----------



## staystrong

SoCa,

A timeline question.. how many years passed between moving back to Ohio and having kids?

Just curious. Trying to wrap my head around something in your story.


----------



## staystrong

happyman64 said:


> In all honesty, if I told you about my conundrum which started on 911 and has not ended yet your hair would fall out of your heads.
> 
> But on a positive note my wife is still by my side and my children are happy/healthy.
> 
> *And in the end that is all that matters.*


So true. 

Every marriage faces challenges. No matter if we move around or stay in one place. What's important is how we face them.


----------



## Bullwinkle

We are all jealous of you, Happy,but glad for you too as a friend. 

And PB, please, no more pictures, we are all reminded of what a sausage fest our current lives have become....


----------



## soca70

Ceegee said:


> Do you think that Playboy position is still open?


You can check the website. I know one of the EVP's.


----------



## soca70

Pbartender said:


> I'm going to show off just a little, Soca, because I want you to see something that might encourage you...
> 
> I'm going to give you the recipe for what I cooked for dinner last night:
> 
> Spicy Italian sausages
> Potatoes broiled with basil
> Tomato and cucumber salad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's typical of the sort of meal I like to make for my kids... Inexpensive, simple, delicious, and almost entirely made from scratch... often while using up some leftovers from the fridge, as well. Let's begin...
> 
> Make sure the shelves in your oven are set about halfway down, and light up the broiler. Set the pan for your potatoes in the oven to pre-heat. Preheat a large pan -- I like to use my cast-iron skillet -- over medium heat on the stove.
> 
> While the pans are heating up, wash 6 to 8 medium sized potatoes and chop them into large (~1") chunks.
> 
> Pull the potato pan out of the oven, and add 3 or 4 spoonfuls of oil to it -- olive oil is tasty and works nice for these. Add the potatoes, giving them a good stir around the pan to coat them in oil. Return to the oven uncovered. Broil for 20 minutes, stirring them every 5 minutes or so.
> 
> Once the potatoes are under the broiler, place the sausages in the skillet. Keep an eye on them, turning them often, until they're browned on all sides. Then, cover the skillet and turn the heat down to low... turn the sausages whenever you stir the potatoes.
> 
> In the meantime, while you're waiting for the potatoes and sausages to finish cooking and when you aren't busy stirring them, wash and thickly slice 3 or 4 medium tomatoes and 1 large cucumber. Toss in a bowl with some dressing. (I had a couple handfuls of mixed greens left over in the fridge, which I added to the salad.)
> 
> After 20 minutes, the potatoes and sausages should be done. turn off the oven and the stove, and pull the potatoes out. Drop a spoonful or two of butter into the potato pan, and let it melt. Stir the potatoes to coat them with the melted butter, and sprinkle on some flavor... I used dried basil, and little salt and pepper. Crushed rosemary is also pretty tasty.
> 
> Don't forget that while you're cooking a meal like this, it's a great time to chat with the kids about their day at school or plans for the weekend or some such.
> 
> Done! It only took a little more than half an hour from start to finish (really no worse then most frozen meals, or boxes mixes). It can be cooked off the top of your head. It's delicious. It's a healthy, well-balanced meal. And all together the whole meal probably didn't cost me more than about $5.


PB - fantastic! Thanks so much! I appreciate the time you spent writing this down. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking to make. (I will call those "hot dogs" though)


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, I understand about what's keeping you in Ohio now. Family should always come first. You passed a fitness test.


Thanks, BW! Who's fitness test? Mine?


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Thank God for picture of food PB.
> 
> Because if Conrad or Soca wrote anymore about their moves/real estate conundrums, I was going to walk out of this building, get my car, drive to the GW Bridge and jump off it!
> 
> In all honesty, if I told you about my conundrum which started on 911 and has not ended yet your hair would fall out of your heads.
> 
> But on a positive note my wife is still by my side and my children are happy/healthy.
> 
> And in the end that is all that matters.
> 
> So lets see some more of those sausages PB....
> 
> HM64
> 
> PS
> Conrad you are right on the money about NY. It is a money pit. I cannot wait to move someday.


HM, I know you've shared some of this and it's a credit to you and your family how you have weathered it.


----------



## soca70

staystrong said:


> SoCa,
> 
> A timeline question.. how many years passed between moving back to Ohio and having kids?
> 
> Just curious. Trying to wrap my head around something in your story.


SS -We sold our house in LA the second half of 2005. 

We (primarily me) moved to our family lakehouse while we had a new house built and moved into that March 2006. X struck a deal with the LA law firm to transition 2 weeks in LA and then 2 weeks in Ohio while they evaluated whether this arrangement would work. X got a studio apartment in downtown LA next to the firm's building after we sold the house in 2005and commuted back and forth on this schedule until mid-2006.

I would go out to CA occasionally as we did our IVF procedures in La Jolla (San Diego). Firm approved the arrangement in 2006 so the commuting ended and also our third IVF attempt was successful. I started with my company July 2006.

Boys were born January 2007 and X worked part-time until they were almost 3 and started pre-school. My sister was our full-time nanny.

We sold the first house in Oct 2009, lived at our lakehouse again until December 2010 when this build was finished.

Clear as mud?


----------



## angelpixie

Bullwinkle said:


> And PB, please, no more pictures, we are all reminded of what a *sausage fest* our current lives have become....


Is _that_ what that phrase means? :scratchhead:


----------



## soca70

Now on another culinary note, I'm off to my last class for the seafood/fish session. And I have no idea what a sausage fest is so maybe I should ask the instructor?


----------



## angelpixie

I dare you! :rofl:


----------



## soca70

OK - I just googled this and apparently there is a "big" one coming up next month in Chicago. And Urban Dictionary has another definition. Which is more applicable to BW's thread...


----------



## angelpixie

Oh, being a (half-)Polish girl, I'll bet the one in Chicago would be awesome...Hmmm. Maybe I'd better google this myself before I post...



ETA: Whew! I'm safe.


----------



## staystrong

soca70 said:


> SS -We sold our house in LA the second half of 2005.
> 
> We (primarily me) moved to our family lakehouse while we had a new house built and moved into that March 2006. X struck a deal with the LA law firm to transition 2 weeks in LA and then 2 weeks in Ohio while they evaluated whether this arrangement would work. X got a studio apartment in downtown LA next to the firm's building after we sold the house in 2005and commuted back and forth on this schedule until mid-2006.
> 
> I would go out to CA occasionally as we did our IVF procedures in La Jolla (San Diego). Firm approved the arrangement in 2006 so the commuting ended and also our third IVF attempt was successful. I started with my company July 2006.
> 
> Boys were born January 2007 and X worked part-time until they were almost 3 and started pre-school. My sister was our full-time nanny.
> 
> We sold the first house in Oct 2009, lived at our lakehouse again until December 2010 when this build was finished.
> 
> Clear as mud?



Whew .. Indeed!

Thank you


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> PB - fantastic! Thanks so much! I appreciate the time you spent writing this down. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking to make. (I will call those "hot dogs" though)


No more sausages, but here's a few others, real quick...

*Grilled filet mignon, fried potatoes, and fresh tomato:*










I was on my own for Memorial Day, so this was my dinner.

Drop the filet on a very hot grill for 2 minutes, then gently pick it up with tongs and rotate it 90 degrees (to get those beautiful criss-cross grill marks). Two more minute, then gently flip it with the tongs and repeat on the other side. Eight minutes and your done.

The potatoes are just sliced potatoes and onions fried in a hot pan with a little bit of oil and butter for about 15 or 20 minutes... Topped off with a little "Steak & Chop Seasoning". Make sure you keep them moving in the pan every few minutes.

The tomatoes are just sliced tomatoes drizzled with a bit of balsamic vinegar and fresh basil. Om nom nom.

*Deviled eggs:*










Boil a bunch of eggs... Start with eggs in cold water. Using older eggs, a small spoonful of salt, and a couple big spoonfuls of vinegar will make them easier to peel. Bring the water to boiling. Turn off the heat, and cover. Wait about 20 minutes. Drain the hot water. Dunk the eggs in ice-cold water, and let them sit until chilled. Then peel them.

Cut the eggs in half lengthwise, and remove the yolks. Mash up the yolks with a generous amount of mayonnaise, and a little bit of mustard. Place dollops of yolk mixture back into the cups formed by the egg halves. Dust with spicy paprika. Done.

*Quiche Lorraine*










A quiche is, essentially, just scrambled eggs and stuff in a pie crust. I make my own pie crust, but it took me two months practicing to learn how to get one right. If you're short on time, buy one from the cooler case at the grocery store. Pre-bake your pie crust for a few minutes, before you put the egg mixture in.

4 eggs, 1 cup milk, 1 cup sour cream for one pie. Mix well in a bowl.

Quiche Lorraine is a bacon, onion, egg and cheese pie. But you can use any fillings you like. Put the fillings in first, then pour egg mixture over it until full, then top with cheese. Bake at 375F for 30 to 40 minutes. Goes good with a salad. Done.

*Homemade pizza*










You can cheat and buy a crust. I like to make my own. Just use any good french bread recipe (they're all just flour, water, yeast, salt and maybe a bit of sugar), and make sure to knead it enough and let it rise enough. It takes hours for the crust to rise, so this one does require some planning ahead.

Then, roll it out in a flat circle and place it on an oiled pan (some people prefer to dust the pan with flour or cornmeal). Like the quiche, pre-bake the crust a little for a better result.

Add tomato sauce, toppings and cheese. Then, bake according to the bread recipe instructions... Until the cheese is melted and the crust is browned. 25-30 minutes at 425F should do it. Done.

*Kakiage style tempura*










Oh boy, now we're getting fancy, aren't we! It's easier than it looks or sounds.

Make a tempura batter... 2 cups flour, 2 eggs, 2 cups water, 1/4 cup crushed ice. Mix very lightly. It should still be fairly lumpy. 

Chop and slice up some mixed vegetables -- bell peppers, onions, pea pods, mushrooms, broccoli, carrots all work well, but whatever you like. You'll also want some seafood -- fish diced to medium-sized chunks, small shrimp or crab meat. Mix everything -- batter, vegetables and seafood -- together in a bowl.

Deep fry large spoonfuls in very hot oil until the batter turns golden brown. Remove and drain. Eat it like chicken nuggets. Done.


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## angelpixie

That tempura recipe looks awesome, Pb! I rarely deep fry anything, but I might just to try this.


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> That tempura recipe looks awesome, Pb! I rarely deep fry anything, but I might just to try this.


My Dad picked it up from Okinawa, when he was stationed there with the Navy. He always called them "fish cakes". I was the only kid he gave the recipe to, and it took me the longest time to figure out what the recipe really was.

It's one of our favorites. Fry them hot and fast, and there's very little grease to them.


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## Bullwinkle

PB, will you marry me? I will be sensitive to your feelings, you can have close male friends....

FYI - example of a Sausage Fest - you go with your buds to Cancun, you stay at a great resort, you go out to the pool, and it's all fat, hairy guys from Wichita attending a convention.


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Now on another culinary note, I'm off to my last class for the seafood/fish session. And I have no idea what a sausage fest is so maybe I should ask the instructor?


They call them "Bratwurst" in Wisconsin and parts of Minnesota - LOL! Once person's sausage is another person's hot dog, Bratwurst, or salami  Part of what makes this a great country!


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> No more sausages, but here's a few others, real quick...


Wow, PB! I am stunned and impressed with your culinary talents (and the great pictures recording your feasts). You do realize this skill will have the side benefit of knocking your sexy rating off the charts when you starte dating  Nice!!!


----------



## golfergirl

Soca - if I wasn't married I'd fall in love with you oh and ahhmann too! Oh and Shamwow. Something about guys who are sensitive yet take charge - I dunno - women out there are missing out! Good dad, working on weaknesses, working on getting it together with some 'taking care if yourself' routines. Your wives are crazy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> PB, will you marry me? I will be sensitive to your feelings, you can have close male friends....
> 
> .


Be careful, PB! BW will hunt you down as I think he's subsisting on a diet of pork rinds, pizza, and beer!

Seriously, PB, thanks for sending these! Hopefully others on here can also benefit. That filet looks awesome. Looks like you've got the handle on this!

So at class tonight -shrimp scampi, buttered scallops, grilled swordfish, and baked fish ratatouille. I can use the shrimp recipe with the boys. Chef instructor wants me to take the one-day knife skills class this Saturday. If I can figure out child care for the boys that afternoon, I will.


----------



## Conrad

golfergirl said:


> Soca - if I wasn't married I'd fall in love with you oh and ahhmann too! Oh and Shamwow. Something about guys who are sensitive yet take charge - I dunno - women out there are missing out! Good dad, working on weaknesses, working on getting it together with some 'taking care if yourself' routines. Your wives are crazy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


posOM is just so cool....

And, the "options" they have...

Just think about it.


----------



## soca70

golfergirl said:


> Soca - if I wasn't married I'd fall in love with you oh and ahhmann too! Oh and Shamwow. Something about guys who are sensitive yet take charge - I dunno - women out there are missing out! Good dad, working on weaknesses, working on getting it together with some 'taking care if yourself' routines. Your wives are crazy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


GG - thanks for the kind words! I see you are from Canada and I am heading up to Calgary for a week Sunday. Have never been but it looks great!


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> So at class tonight -shrimp scampi, buttered scallops, grilled swordfish, and baked fish ratatouille.


Yum, yum, yum, and yum! :smthumbup: So, you're learning all of this, but are you having fun? Does cooking seem like something you'd like to really get into once the classes are over?


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Yum, yum, yum, and yum! :smthumbup: So, you're learning all of this, but are you having fun? Does cooking seem like something you'd like to really get into once the classes are over?


Yes tonight was fun. I've relaxed enough to enjoy being there. I established a good rapport with the chef, the assistants, and some of the people in class. Would like to take this knife class.

As something I'd really get into, probably not. It's a lot of prep work for something that's finished pretty quickly and this is not something that comes naturally for me. However, this is taking away some of the "mystery" of cooking for me. The goal is to be able to cook 2-3 healthy meals for the boys and me per week. I think I can achieve this with the pan-grilled steak and the shrimp scampi. I also like PB's sausages.

Maybe if it goes well, I will get into it more. I called my caterer friend in LA on the way back for a progress report and she said it sounded like a good start for "date nights".


----------



## soca70

Remember, AP, you are talking to a guy who burned a Kids Cuisine in the microwave.


----------



## angelpixie

That will be all forgotten once Chez Soca starts turning out gourmet meals. Or, at the very least, sausages.


----------



## golfergirl

Conrad said:


> posOM is just so cool....
> 
> And, the "options" they have...
> 
> Just think about it.
> 
> I don't understand people who (especially with children) don't fix what they have. My H and I have issues for sure, but unless abuse or cheating, I want to give our our boys gift of in tact home. I would never leave out of boredom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

As long as I can make Ramen noodles and chicken nuggets my kids are happy. However, I can cook pretty well. My specialty is grilling on my Green Egg. Chicks dig it. Cedar plank sockeye salmon, baked potatoes and grilled veggies. I could eat it everyday.


----------



## golfergirl

soca70 said:


> GG - thanks for the kind words! I see you are from Canada and I am heading up to Calgary for a week Sunday. Have never been but it looks great!


I am Alberta's neighbour, Saskatchewan. Calgary very nice city. Hope is closer, I'm 8 hours away. If you can, tour Banff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

This all sounds really positives SoCa, good on you, bud, for getting out there, trying something outside your comfort zone.


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> You do realize this skill will have the side benefit of knocking your sexy rating off the charts when you starte dating  Nice!!!


Oh, I do... Trust me, I do. 



soca70 said:


> Be careful, PB! BW will hunt you down as I think he's subsisting on a diet of pork rinds, pizza, and beer!


No worries... guests at my dinner table are always welcome! Good company is half the fun of good food.



soca70 said:


> Seriously, PB, thanks for sending these! Hopefully others on here can also benefit. That filet looks awesome. Looks like you've got the handle on this!
> 
> So at class tonight -shrimp scampi, buttered scallops, grilled swordfish, and baked fish ratatouille. I can use the shrimp recipe with the boys.


Just remember, it's less about learning specific recipes, and more about learning techniques... Once you've got a few good basic techniques down, you can start building your own recipes.

For instance...

That "recipe" for cooking the filet? You can use that on any cut of steak or pork chop (though gives chops a little extra time to make sure they're cooked through).

That "recipe" for the broiled potatoes? Use it with just about any vegetable... A mix of onions, bell peppers and mushrooms broiled this way is fantastic.

Sausages? That works for any type of sausage... Italian sausage, bratwursts, Andouille. If the sausage is pre-cooked or smoked, like hotdogs or kielbasa, the just brown them real quick to heat them up, they don't need to be simmered on low for that long.

Quiche? Drop the egg mix in a hot, oiled iron skillet with no crust. Use bell peppers and onions as your fillings, top it with mozzarella cheese and some basil or oregano, then put it under the broiler for 5 or 10 minutes until it gets brown on top... That's a frittata.

Ratatouille? One of our favorite recipes in the summer, when the Farmer's market opens up. It sounds all fancy and French, but you know what it is? It's just stewed vegetables. At it's most basic: Eggplant, zucchini, tomatoes, bell peppers, onions, carrots and garlic. Chop them all up in big chunks and toss them in a pot. Season it with a mix of green herbs (HINT! If they smell good together, they'll taste good together!)... marjoram, basil, thyme and bay leaf is I usually use. Heat it up, until they're just cooked. That's it.

Don't worry about the "mystery" of cooking... That's a myth that drives people to subsisting off of convenience foods. Cooking shouldn't be mysterious. It should be delicious. It doesn't have to be difficult, and it doesn't need to be fancy or complicated to be good. 



soca70 said:


> Chef instructor wants me to take the one-day knife skills class this Saturday. If I can figure out child care for the boys that afternoon, I will.


Definitely take that class... Go learn how to properly use and care for knives. It'll be one of the most useful skills you learn for the kitchen.


----------



## Ceegee

All sounds great PB. You should start a cooking/recipe sharing thread for single dads.


----------



## soca70

Ceegee said:


> All sounds great PB. You should start a cooking/recipe sharing thread for single dads.


Ceegee - that's a good idea! PB - you could throw out a thread to gauge interest.

Up this morning waiting for X to bring over the boys. Big water park day ahead!

Woke up this morning to a vivid dream of X and I at some play and XGF from San Diego making out with one of my college fraternity brothers behind us. Ugh...


----------



## Awakening2012

Ceegee said:


> All sounds great PB. You should start a cooking/recipe sharing thread for single dads.


Or start a You Tube series, and become an internet sensation, with single ladies from across the globe hankering to meet you!
:smthumbup:


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> Or start a You Tube series, and become an internet sensation, with single ladies from across the globe hankering to meet you!
> :smthumbup:


That's something I'd actually thought about just a few days ago... maybe when the dust settles, and I've got the spare time for it.


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> That's something I'd actually thought about just a few days ago... maybe when the dust settles, and I've got the spare time for it.


Excellent, you'd be great at it! :smthumbup:


----------



## GutPunch

golfergirl said:


> Conrad said:
> 
> 
> 
> posOM is just so cool....
> 
> And, the "options" they have...
> 
> Just think about it.
> 
> I don't understand people who (especially with children) don't fix what they have. My H and I have issues for sure, but unless abuse or cheating, I want to give our our boys gift of in tact home. I would never leave out of boredom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> I agree totally. What's more important? Dopamine rush or your kid's happiness and future. Some people are just selfish and cannot see outside their precious little box.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Ditto.


----------



## soca70

Well, well, well...

Today has proven to be enlightening. This morning, X brings boys over at 9:15 this morning and heads out to the gym. At 10:00, I'm getting them ready to go to the water park and can't find the tickets. The school had a special program through PTO for discount tickets that X and I agreed on a few weeks ago. So I call X and ask "where are the tickets?" 

X - "Oh I don't know. It didn't say where to get them." 
Soca - "Did you get an email or something as my email notification has been turned off as you know?"
X - "Let me check. Oh here I didn't open it on 5/28, pick the tickets up at (so-and-so)'s house. She's probably gone now but here's the number. You can text her."
Soca - "OK" *Calls PTO mother to find out she's left with tickets and can either meet me or leave at will call so we arrange for will call*

Minutes later, I call X.
Soca - "Where are the swim shirts you had from Memorial Day at the pool (that I bought)?"
X - "Oh I forgot. Anyway they took them off after 5 minutes."
Soca - "Can you bring them over?"
X - "Soca, I'm at the gym."

I bite my tongue at all this and get boys to water park. In the parking lot, they run into their friend from yesterday so great start. Turns out a lot of parents/kids from school are there and we stayed for 7(!) hours. Despite slathering of sunscreen (even on me by friend's mom), kids are fried by end of day. Swim shirts would have been nice. Good time and I'm hit up by a dad for a local scout group, conversing with other parents, etc.

On way back home, I call X to discuss tomorrow and Saturday's schedule and to bring some items over tonight - no answer but a call back 10 minutes later. 

Soca - "Can you bring (items) over?"
X - "If you really need them but I'm leaving in a bit."
BIG 2X4 THWACK!
Soca-"Oh,where?"
X - "Dinner."
AGAIN!
Soca - "With who?"
X - "Soca, it's none of your business. A dinner."

At this time, the boys start beating on each other in the car, screaming, and I about spit a f*****g nail.

So I yell at the boys to be quiet and scrap the Dairy Queen idea for dinner and just head home and fix Hot Pockets, watch Alaska The Last Frontier, and get them to bed. And miss XGF's call from San Diego.

Some background on some major miscues this week from ol' Soca. Kumbayaing with the X. Stopping over to use the fax/printer for paperwork for the new job. Movies. Yogurt and ice cream trips. Long talks on the phone about the boys. Self-reflection on Soca's bad behavior. Advice on what f****g outfit to buy for the benefit dinner on Saturday (that someone's going solo to and it's not Soca!).

Well this certainly brought out a new perspective. I can assure you, gentle reader, that this BS is coming to a screeching halt.

So I text about 8:000 PM. "Why is (my dog) not here?"
And amazingly receive a text back at 9:45 about I wasn't here when X left for the evening. I texted back "Bring her over at 8:00 AM" 15 minutes later - "OK".

Call XGF back. SHe's leaving for dinner with her 8 month boyfriend but wants to catch up this weekend. *Head bang on desk."

Call best friend in OH and vent for 45 minutes. Upside is he says I sound much better and "lighter" even with this info and I'm doing great. General commiseration and character assassination ensues. Had wanted to get me out next Thursday to some arty/high-end movie premiere for eye candy purposes. But will start actively looking for events for us to go to. And will help with my match.com profile.

I can't get to Calgary soon enough!


----------



## Conrad

Does the term "self-flagellation" mean anything to you?


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Does the term "self-flagellation" mean anything to you?


You know, Conrad, what I've been thinking lately is that if the bedrock of our social organization is based upon such fragile bonds, we're f*****d.


----------



## angelpixie

Will it make you feel better if I tell you that months ago you would not have been at a point where you would have seen all of this on your own? You would have been black and blue from TAM-by-4s, and still trying to find a way to get back to Kumbaya'ing. 

Now, do you still want to invest in adjoining properties?


----------



## Bullwinkle

Great point, AP, about the adjoining yards. 

SoCa, it's possible she was meeting other women for dinner. Or maybe it was some guy. Point is of course it bothered you. A lot. As it would most of us. 

But in many ways, it's almost like you two are still a married couple and a family. The incongruity of it all.


----------



## golfergirl

Another thing I'm seeing is her total disinterest (again) in the kids. My kids would be so stressed over the uncertainty about that outing (where are tickets - where are swimsuits) and she could care less. Hey it was your time with them - so all your problem. Rather than counting on her to give a crap, you might need to send her specific items and lists like a 2 years old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

You need a date or the illusion of a date so you can tell her none of your business. Nothing too obvious but something for her to wonder. She may not still 'care' but she likes knowing you're still there and available. Knock her off that horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Soca

I read your post above and now you know where the phrase "Nice guys finish last" comes from.

Stop being nice. Demand better from your STBXW.

And since she is moving on you know that it is your cue to do so as well.

Let me add a little HM advice.

Stop talking to the old GF.

Your future lies in front of you.

Find a woman that has her act together like you do.

Someone that compliments you. And not an attorney for God's sake.

All they do is over analyze, criticize, debate everything and find comfort from others just like them.....


HM


----------



## Conrad

golfergirl said:


> Another thing I'm seeing is her total disinterest (again) in the kids. My kids would be so stressed over the uncertainty about that outing (where are tickets - where are swimsuits) and she could care less. Hey it was your time with them - so all your problem. Rather than counting on her to give a crap, you might need to send her specific items and lists like a 2 years old.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She cares about no one but herself.

Nothing changes but the date.


----------



## BWBill

I suggest that if you are taking the kids on an outing that you not rely on her for tickets, clothes, etc. If you do it yourself then you can be sure it is done and can reduce interactions with with her.


----------



## angelpixie

Sadly, this is true. The only way for me to reduce stress in dealing with the douchecanoe is to buy doubles of everything when feasible and keep them at my house. It's ridiculous to waste that kind of money, but it does make things easier quite often. I still have to deal with him forgetting to send along DS' sax or the laptop, but I can't afford doubles of those.  I just no longer go pick them up from him anymore. If he forgets to bring them, he has to bring them over. And he knows it now.

Reduce your stress by relying on her as little as possible. If she wasn't reliable as your wife, she'll be even less so as your ex.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Douchecanoe? This is even better than douchenozzle.


----------



## angelpixie

Bullwinkle said:


> Douchecanoe? This is even better than douchenozzle.


And guess what? He and posGF just bought a canoe. DS (not knowing about 'douchecanoe' of course) asked me what he should name it. Ohhhh, I had a hard time keeping my mouth shut... :rofl:


----------



## Nsweet

angelpixie said:


> And guess what? He and posGF just bought a canoe. DS (not knowing about 'douchecanoe' of course) asked me what he should name it. Ohhhh, I had a hard time keeping my mouth shut... :rofl:


Oh, you have to ask him how he's going to paddle his douchecanoe. Come on Angel, it's the perfect joke and he won't even get it.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Agreed. 

Point of clarification - is the whole douche reference generally something women call men? Or is it not gender specific?


----------



## staystrong

I've never heard a woman being called a [email protected]/nozzle/canoe. It just wouldn't have the same impact. 

PS - Douche in French refers to the bathroom shower. I still chuckle at that one.


----------



## angelpixie

No, douchecanoe is strictly the ex. So I guess posGF would do the paddling. Gee, sorry your thread got hijacked, Soca!


----------



## BrokenM

staystrong said:


> I've never heard a woman being called a [email protected]/nozzle/canoe. It just wouldn't have the same impact.
> 
> PS - Douche in French refers to the bathroom shower. I still chuckle at that one.


It is one of the single hardest things to get over for an immature person like myself in France...

Was at a spa and they kept pointing asking - Le Douche? Douche?

Sorry for the hijack - but this one of the few things that has made me laugh this last week!


----------



## soca70

I think we're entering into lowest common denominator territory...

So a little job "scare" yesterday as my former company's General Counsel had called, hadn't heard back from HR, and I called my boss who was somewhat evasive. Became convinced that the company was going to try to enforce a non-compete agreement on me. Luckily, the issue was resolved by end of day when counsel just wanted to remind me that I have signed confidentiality and proprietary information agreements and that they have issued cease and desist letters to this new company previously when some of the other employees that now work over there. Not a big deal but I was starting to really stress in the interim.

Of course, my Kumbaya swearing off lasted until the afternoon as I called to discuss with X any implications, etc as I know their firm handles employment law as well.

Bit of a discussion about dating and X assured me the dinner was not a date but just a friend. Regardless, this has spurred me on to action! Boys and I had seen their favorite babysitter at the water park so I asked if she could come over today for a few hours in the afternoon while I took the knife skills class. By the time, we finalized, the class was full. So I took advantage of their "park time" today and picked up some books at Barnes and Noble, some new shirts, and weeded out all my low-end "fat boy" clothes from my summer wardrobe and tried on every one of my "nice" shirts to confirm fit for future social events and dates. Dropped off the rejects at Goodwill. So glad I kicked off working out again at the beginning of next year so at least I don't have to start that over again. Still clocking in at 26 pounds lighter from Jan 2012. 4 more is the goal weight.

Oil change, cleaners, etc. Stuff for this trip tomorrow. XGF calls. Supposed to call later tonight. X kept texting me for the schedule tomorrow.

Hung out with the boys with crafts, baths, etc. Now will start organizing for tomorrow's trip to Canada.


----------



## angelpixie

Onward and upwards, sweetie. Yay on the positives this weekend! :smthumbup:


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Onward and upwards, sweetie. Yay on the positives this weekend! :smthumbup:


Thanks, AP! Slowly but surely, my friends...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good on you, SoCa. You're handling it so well, always admire your cool under fire. 


BW


----------



## happyman64

Safe Travels Soca. I am off to Orlando on business Tuesday.

One question?

Why do you and the Ex still discuss dating?

Do you think the fact you bring it up makes you look weak?

Are you trying to time your renewal of dating with hers?

just curious.....


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> Why do you and the Ex still discuss dating?
> 
> Do you think the fact you bring it up makes you look weak?


The question of the ages.


----------



## angelpixie

happyman64 said:


> One question?
> 
> Why do you and the Ex still discuss dating?
> 
> Do you think the fact you bring it up makes you look weak?
> 
> Are you trying to time your renewal of dating with hers?
> 
> just curious.....



"You're not the only one who's desirable; I'm desirable, too."


----------



## soca70

Finally made it to Calgary...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Have fun up there, SoCa. Don't know if you're one of these sushi guys but the best steak I ever had in my life was in Calgary. Keep us posted.


----------



## Yankeegirl

soca70 said:


> Thanks for the replies and advice. I had started working out again this year and have been keeping it up through this so I'm feeling OK physically.
> 
> Conrad - from the forums I saw that "ILYBNILWY" speech is often a sign of a posOM. Last weekend, for the first time in 11 years, I started checking through her email accounts, Facebook, etc. I did find a UserID to an online dating site which I confronted her about. She said she just registered to "check what's out there" after she indicated she was over us and on her trip but has not acted on anything and that she has been faithful for 11 years. I truly believe this as we work out of the house together, etc and have never once suspected anything. However, just finding that registration on that site made a part of me want to die.


Wow, even though my stbx and I never got along he finally told me that same bs line "ILYBNILWY" a month before he said he was finally done and last night while checking out the cell phone bill a lot of "UNAVAILABLE" calls were all over the bill within the last year we were together and separated, I'm talking about 15-90 min calls everyday and every other day....I confronted him last night and I told him its over why not come clean....he said it was a coworker and friends he talks to not girls, yea right even on Christmas Day while I was out of town he was in the phone that whole week at midnight and 3 am? I swear, I hate liars and cheaters just can't wait to be outta here and on to bigger and better things! I guess I never thought the ILYBNILWY meant code for "I found somebody else", now I know better!:scratchhead:


----------



## soca70

Yankeegirl said:


> Wow, even though my stbx and I never got along he finally told me that same bs line "ILYBNILWY" a month before he said he was finally done and last night while checking out the cell phone bill a lot of "UNAVAILABLE" calls were all over the bill within the last year we were together and separated, I'm talking about 15-90 min calls everyday and every other day....I confronted him last night and I told him its over why not come clean....he said it was a coworker and friends he talks to not girls, yea right even on Christmas Day while I was out of town he was in the phone that whole week at midnight and 3 am? I swear, I hate liars and cheaters just can't wait to be outta here and on to bigger and better things! I guess I never thought the ILYBNILWY meant code for "I found somebody else", now I know better!:scratchhead:


YankeeGirl - sorry to hear. On TAM, you will find all sorts of information you which you never knew. It does get better, however. Stay strong!

All day meetings here. Off to good start though. Since this is a niche business I'm in lots of commonalities and knowing the same contacts. This will be an easy transition. Banff may be on schedule. BW - what was the name of the steakhouse? Colleagues want to go.  Mind fried however and 4 days to go!


----------



## Ceegee

An easy transition is a nice change of pace eh?


----------



## soca70

Ceegee said:


> An easy transition is a nice change of pace eh?


Yeah wouldn't it be?


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Safe Travels Soca. I am off to Orlando on business Tuesday.
> 
> One question?
> 
> Why do you and the Ex still discuss dating?
> 
> Do you think the fact you bring it up makes you look weak?
> 
> Are you trying to time your renewal of dating with hers?
> 
> just curious.....


Of course it looks weak and needy. I force myself to not bring it up but I have slipped up a couple of times. It's almost like well if no one's dating, I can kind of "pretend" this didn't happen. Yes, magical thinking or reaching some new low of tolerance of unacceptable situations and trying to gear up for that next blow. Something like that.

On a positive note, spent some time working on my pictures for the upcoming dating profile. Cropped X out of a great family picture at my sister's wedding this past August.


----------



## soca70

soca70 said:


> On a positive note, spent some time working on my pictures for the upcoming dating profile. Cropped X out of a great family picture at my sister's wedding this past August.


Oh and AP if you recall that was supposed to be the family Xmas card picture. Well, being put to other uses now.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Oh and AP if you recall that was supposed to be the family Xmas card picture. Well, being put to other uses now.


:smthumbup: I'm very in favor of recycling, as long as you can't tell that it's a photo from which your ex was cropped, lol. But I'm sure you're much too sophisticated for that, sweetie.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, sorry, I can't remember the name of the steak joint, it was right downtown and in the lobby of some huge, historic hotel. Know this doesn't help. 

This sounds like it was a nice change of pace for you.


----------



## doureallycare2

Soca: sounds like all in all you are so much stronger and doing well. concentrating on the boys Im sure is very helpful, keep it up!


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> This sounds like it was a nice change of pace for you.


Well an interesting thing happened today..

I've been in product training session after session all day here and have really enjoyed the people in the corporate office (about 200 people work here). Ended up having a 3 hour session with one of the main product managers who I met yesterday and thought was very attractive. Had an hour and a half lunch with said product manager and I swear to God I felt this strong chemistry between us. Unfortunately, married with 2 small kids (4 and 6). However, there may be hope for me after all back in Ohio!!!


----------



## angelpixie

Count on it.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Well an interesting thing happened today..
> 
> I've been in product training session after session all day here and have really enjoyed the people in the corporate office (about 200 people work here). Ended up having a 3 hour session with one of the main product managers who I met yesterday and thought was very attractive. Had an hour and a half lunch with said product manager and I swear to God I felt this strong chemistry between us. Unfortunately, married with 2 small kids (4 and 6). However, there may be hope for me after all back in Ohio!!!


Good to know the pheromones still work. .


----------



## oncehisangel

you'll be fabulous soca!


----------



## Conrad

oncehisangel said:


> you'll be fabulous soca!


As long as we can get him to quit talking to his ex about her dating adventures.


----------



## JayS

You are not alone at all. I think that only time can heal. I was in a recovery home for a month (alcoholism) My wife decided that life was more peaceful without me (I was a sporadic drinker, no abuse toward her, but obnoxious) I went to treatment to become a better husband and dad. She talked with me every day and told me she'd be waiting for me. I came to home to an empty house and her refusing to tell me where she lives. Devastating isn't the word for it. Like you, the pain is enormous and I barely sleep. I try to stay with friends. I was the one who pushed her away, but it doesn't make it any easier at all. I have never felt pain like this in my life. Still sober, but clinging to hope. Stay strong yourself...there is no other choice. I hope peace comes to you.


----------



## doureallycare2

JayS said:


> You are not alone at all. I think that only time can heal. I was in a recovery home for a month (alcoholism) My wife decided that life was more peaceful without me (I was a sporadic drinker, no abuse toward her, but obnoxious) I went to treatment to become a better husband and dad. She talked with me every day and told me she'd be waiting for me. I came to home to an empty house and her refusing to tell me where she lives. Devastating isn't the word for it. Like you, the pain is enormous and I barely sleep. I try to stay with friends. I was the one who pushed her away, but it doesn't make it any easier at all. I have never felt pain like this in my life. Still sober, but clinging to hope. Stay strong yourself...there is no other choice. I hope peace comes to you.


JS, Well good for you that you took the steps you needed to take! No matter what happens now you will be a better man, a better husband and a better father. If not in this marrage than further on in your life. All is not lost!! I know a couple that the same exact thing happed, except he even went to jail, got out and she was gone. 5 years latter they are now back together and doing wonderful. she wanted to see if he could stick it out before going back to him.. you never know... Like I said though, what matters most is you doing it for you,,,,!


----------



## soca70

Well still alive here...

Finished up the end of the week in Calgary training. Made it to Banff for dinner one night at the Fairmont. Back Friday night after midnight. X brought the boys over Saturday about noon and we zipped up to the lake for the weekend. A little jet ski action, fishing, boating, and Slip n Sliding. My niece was there so kids all had a great time.

Off this morning to Atlanta for more training through Thursday. Boys were bummed I was out again as they had spent so many days with X.

While I was gone last week, boys spent 3 nights with my parents. At one of the hand-offs, X gave my mom a "tour" of the rental. My mother has had to go through her own grieving process and was able to have a frank, cordial discussion with X. X said at one point that she had hoped that we would all still remain a family but in a different way. My mom said unfortunately that was impossible now as her actions had ended the "family" relationship. X said that no one will ever understand her decision.

Kind of a funny moment (to me) with the boys driving up to the lake in the car. The Patti Labelle/Michael McDonald song "On My Own" came on and this ensued:

SocaJr1: That guy said "divorce" in that song!
Patti Labelle: "Why did it end this way?"
SocaJr2: Because you made a choice, lady.
SocaJr1: Why is she complaining? She's the one that left!

My work here is done.


----------



## Ceegee

soca70 said:


> Well still alive here...
> 
> Finished up the end of the week in Calgary training. Made it to Banff for dinner one night at the Fairmont. Back Friday night after midnight. X brought the boys over Saturday about noon and we zipped up to the lake for the weekend. A little jet ski action, fishing, boating, and Slip n Sliding. My niece was there so kids all had a great time.
> 
> Off this morning to Atlanta for more training through Thursday. Boys were bummed I was out again as they had spent so many days with X.
> 
> While I was gone last week, boys spent 3 nights with my parents. At one of the hand-offs, X gave my mom a "tour" of the rental. My mother has had to go through her own grieving process and was able to have a frank, cordial discussion with X. X said at one point that she had hoped that we would all still remain a family but in a different way. My mom said unfortunately that was impossible now as her actions had ended the "family" relationship. X said that no one will ever understand her decision.
> 
> Kind of a funny moment (to me) with the boys driving up to the lake in the car. The Patti Labelle/Michael McDonald song "On My Own" came on and this ensued:
> 
> SocaJr1: That guy said "divorce" in that song!
> Patti Labelle: "Why did it end this way?"
> SocaJr2: Because you made a choice, lady.
> SocaJr1: Why is she complaining? She's the one that left!
> 
> My work here is done.


They've learned an important lesson at a very young age. It will serve them well. 

Amazing how unaware these "women" are. How their search for personal happiness affects so many people.


----------



## angelpixie

Your boys sound like a riot, Soca. :rofl: Glad you had a good time with them this weekend. 



And, as a public service to women who _don't_ walk away, I just have to take this opportunity to say that the walkaway spouse is unaware, be they male or female. My walkaway husband was no more aware than Soca's WAW.


----------



## Ceegee

angelpixie said:


> Your boys sound like a riot, Soca. :rofl: Glad you had a good time with them this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> And, as a public service to women who _don't_ walk away, I just have to take this opportunity to say that the walkaway spouse is unaware, be they male or female. My walkaway husband was no more aware than Soca's WAW.


Quite right AP. 

Most occurrences in this forum involve WAW women at the moment. But I apologize for the slight.


----------



## angelpixie

No prob, Ceegee. Just seeing a fair amount of (understandable) bad feelings towards WAW's transferred to women in general, and it has me a little touchy.


----------



## Ceegee

angelpixie said:


> No prob, Ceegee. Just seeing a fair amount of (understandable) bad feelings towards WAW's transferred to women in general, and it has me a little touchy.


You may direct your complaints to MCG, Frostine, MRG, AXW & Socas STBXW. 😉


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Good to know the boys take after you....

And your wife is right, no one will ever understand her decision.

Including her.

Leave her to her never ending journey to find happiness.

You are already on your way and yours will eventually end.

So make it a happy ending.

HM64


----------



## angelpixie

Ceegee said:


> You may direct your complaints to MCG, Frostine, MRG, AXW & Socas STBXW. 😉



I know. But I would _never_ think any of you guys were the same as Chinless, Sassie, Blue's Clues, Tosspot, Nutless, or any of the other Ex's that several of us TAM ladies dealt with.


----------



## Ceegee

angelpixie said:


> I know. But I would _never_ think any of you guys were the same as Chinless, Sassie, Blue's Clues, Tosspot, Nutless, or any of the other Ex's that several of us TAM ladies dealt with.


Touché


----------



## 06Daddio08

All these silly little nicknames.


----------



## Ceegee

06Daddio08 said:


> All these silly little nicknames.


I would have been banned on day one if I used the one I wanted to.


----------



## angelpixie

06Daddio08 said:


> All these silly little nicknames.


They served their purpose. We need something to differentiate all the STBXHs & STBXWs. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa

Glad to hear you're okay, it's great you have the new gig to focus on. And Happy is right, your X herself will never understand why she's done all this, especially as time goes on.


----------



## Conrad

"No one will understand her decision"

Cry me a river.


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> I know. But I would _never_ think any of you guys were the same as Chinless, Sassie, Blue's Clues, Tosspot, Nutless, or any of the other Ex's that several of us TAM ladies dealt with.


ROFL!!! I want my stbxh to have a name now!! You actually made me smile on a very depressing day for me...:smthumbup:

As far as What happyman said, I agree: My stbx even said that to me.. He said "I know I will end up alone and unhappy. Ill probably be this old man on a mountain someplace that no one even knows my name".
All he can keep saying over and over again is "Im sorry, you didn’t deserve this. You deserve a better man but I have to ask you again to not do this to me." 

Me: "Your right, I deserve better and Ive asked you many times to not to ever do this to me again and you did.. This is called consequence......and I’m sorry to, I’m sorry that I’ve let you hurt me over and over again"

stbx: "So Im going to get my just desserts right"?

me: " I don’t know and I dont care" But I do care and I hope he does....


----------



## Conrad

What we continue to understand about Soca's X is that she could not bear children.

He shelled out for IVF with donor eggs so she could experience carrying and bearing a child.

This is what he gets for his time, effort, and money.

No one will "understand" her decision - indeed.


----------



## angelpixie

Presumably, Soca also wanted children himself, no? And he had chosen his wife to be the mother of his child(ren), no? (And yes, even though they were donor eggs, she would still have been considered the mother, just as an adoptive mother is considered a mother)

Not meant in any way to excuse her, but it seems odd to suggest that Soca had no emotional investment in the whole IVF process.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> Presumably, Soca also wanted children himself, no? And he had chosen his wife to be the mother of his child(ren), no? (And yes, even though they were donor eggs, she would still have been considered the mother, just as an adoptive mother is considered a mother)
> 
> Not meant in any way to excuse her, but it seems odd to suggest that Soca had no emotional investment in the whole IVF process.


Strange you would read those words in there.

Furthermore, during this divorce, he had the option to go for full custody - because of this biological issue, and chose not to.

And... STILL she can see only herself.

Simply worthless.


----------



## angelpixie

I'm just responding to a common thread I see in your posts, about the money paid for the IVF, as if that was the only, or even main thing to consider. That's what it appears to me, anyway. 

I'm not faulting or criticizing Soca as a father in _any_ way.


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> I'm just responding to a common thread I see in your posts, about the money paid for the IVF, as if that was the only, or even main thing to consider. That's what it appears to me, anyway.
> 
> I'm not faulting or criticizing Soca as a father in _any_ way.


I think Conrad's trying to highlight the supreme #3-ness of the IVF fiasco...

Correct me if I'm wrong, Soca, but the prime underlying reason for IVF was to make her happy... He invested time, effort, money and love to give her the children she normally would not have been able to have. In all likelihood, he thought she would see it as a caring gesture and hoped she would return it with appreciation, attention and love.

And in the end, it means nothing to her.

Soca as a father is wholly separate from that.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> I'm just responding to a common thread I see in your posts, about the money paid for the IVF, as if that was the only, or even main thing to consider. That's what it appears to me, anyway.
> 
> I'm not faulting or criticizing Soca as a father in _any_ way.


I'm sorry you feel that way.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: Losing It*



Conrad said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.


Lol. Haha. Thanks for the great laugh. What a cop out.


----------



## Conrad

06Daddio08 said:


> Lol. Haha. Thanks for the great laugh. What a cop out.


I am sorry she feels that way.


----------



## angelpixie

OK, I get that -- if that was the original reason for the IVF. But --- as a result of the IVF, he got two precious little boys, regardless of what STBXW does now. Adoption is mighty expensive, too. What if he'd spent the same amount of money on that? I guess my point is, when all is said and done, why keep bringing up the money at all? 

He might do things differently if he had to do it over again, but he still has his boys. *What she is doing by walking away is wrong. Period.* Whether or not she was infertile, or there was IVF, or adoption, or if they had had their own biological child(ren) is immaterial at this point, isn't it?


----------



## angelpixie

Conrad said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.



Conrad, I expected nothing more at this point. Or less. Your consistency is admirable.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> Conrad, I expected nothing more at this point. Or less. Your consistency is admirable.


Thank you.

So is yours.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> OK, I get that -- if that was the original reason for the IVF. But --- as a result of the IVF, he got two precious little boys, regardless of what STBXW does now. Adoption is mighty expensive, too. What if he'd spent the same amount of money on that? I guess my point is, when all is said and done, why keep bringing up the money at all?
> 
> He might do things differently if he had to do it over again, but he still has his boys. *What she is doing by walking away is wrong. Period.* Whether or not she was infertile, or there was IVF, or adoption, or if they had had their own biological child(ren) is immaterial at this point, isn't it?


Actually, it isn't.

He gave her every break - including legally - and still her remarks reek of self pity.

"No one will ever understand my decision"

Including her.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Was the break for her or for the sake of his children, when it came to custody? Guess we'll have to wait and see what he says.


----------



## Conrad

06Daddio08 said:


> Was the break for her or for the sake of his children, when it came to custody? Guess we'll have to wait and see what he says.


It doesn't matter.

He had her by the short hairs and showed mercy, and the entitled princess can STILL only wallow in her self pity.

I see why you're defending her.


----------



## jpr

Conrad said:


> I am sorry she feels that way.


This is just a ridiculous non-response.

I am 'barren'. (A word Conrad has so affectionately used to describe women struggling with infertility ). I don't get why you focus so much on this. I went through years of medication and tests and treatments, and I finally got pregnant. My ex-husband was on board throughout the whole process, and wanted a child too. When I was 9 months pregnant he fell in love with someone else, and handed me almost full custody of my infant son. 

Poop happens. Yes, Soca's wife is a pretty poopy person...but, Conrad, how you harp on the fact that she went through IVF and that these boys were a "gift" to his wife---I don't know? :scratchhead:...don't you see anything wrong with these statements? I have read you describe his wife as unwanted because she is barren...it is insulting and cruel.

I agree with Angel. The focus should be on other things--Calling a person's offspring a "#3" just rubs me the wrong way. These are little human beings. ...it is not the same as buying someone a luxury automobile or a dream house.


----------



## Conrad

jpr said:


> This is just a ridiculous non-response.


And, I'm sorry you feel that way too.


----------



## angelpixie

I agree about her self pity and lack of awareness. Got that.



Your first comment above seems to, in fact, be saying that she DOES owe him because he paid for the IVF. That he shouldn't have done the #3, but she should have given him the reward he was seeking when he did the #3.  Is that what you're saying she should be 'aware' of -- that she is in his (literal) debt? Because I'm saying her problems lie deeper than that, and would most likely present themselves at some point if the infertility/IVF, etc., issue never happened, and that focus on the IVF is clouding the issue.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> I agree about her self pity and lack of awareness. Got that.
> 
> 
> 
> Your first comment above seems to, in fact, be saying that she DOES owe him because he paid for the IVF. That he shouldn't have done the #3, but she should have given him the reward he was seeking when he did the #3.  Is that what you're saying she should be 'aware' of -- that she is in his (literal) debt? Because I'm saying her problems lie deeper than that, and would most likely present themselves at some point if the infertility/IVF, etc., issue never happened, and that focus on the IVF is clouding the issue.


Within the trials and tribulations of their separation, he has had the upper hand the entire time and has been nice.

She has responded as you would expect an entitled princess to respond.

It's what she is.

The IVF is part of the upper hand. He was gracious.

You see what he got.

And, you see what he gets now.

She is still wallowing - as if she is the victim.

"No one will understand my decisions"


----------



## angelpixie

And for goodness' sake, *nobody* is defending STBX-Mrs.Soca!! How in the world did you read that in there? :rofl:


----------



## Conrad

06Daddio08 said:


> You see jack sh!t actually. Then again, if it was up to you, you'd "advise" a betrayed spouse to tell there 4 year old child there mother is a cheating wh0re.
> 
> Then when they don't listen to the string pulls, you'd merely consider them a "lost cause".


Dang, I'm sorry you feel that way too.

Such anger.


----------



## jpr

Conrad said:


> Dang, I'm sorry you feel that way too.
> 
> Such anger.


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> OK, I get that -- if that was the original reason for the IVF. But --- as a result of the IVF, he got two precious little boys, regardless of what STBXW does now. Adoption is mighty expensive, too. What if he'd spent the same amount of money on that? I guess my point is, when all is said and done, why keep bringing up the money at all?





jpr said:


> I agree with Angel. The focus should be on other things--Calling a person's offspring a "#3" just rubs me the wrong way. These are little human beings. ...it is not the same as buying someone a luxury automobile or a dream house.


It's not about _*what*_ he did... It's about _*how*_ he did it... and _*why*_ he did it...

It was a #3... and a huge one. And the fact that its a #3 that involves living human beings that he cares for, instead of a simple material possession, makes it all the more important to see it for what it is.


----------



## angelpixie

@ Conrad, not Pb: So, you're saying (it seems) that IVF was all part of Soca's nefarious plan to be a loving husband to his wife, who couldn't conceive on her own. It didn't really matter to him if there were children --his children -- conceived as a result of those treatments. It was all manipulation on his part to make sure she'd never leave him and always be a good wife. 


Really??? As I said originally, and as you seem to be saying, you're portraying Soca as having no emotional involvement in the treatments -- he did it to be 'nice' and 'gracious' and to have the 'upper hand.' Not to take part in a process that would hopefully enlarge their family with children they wanted. I'm not buying that, btw.


----------



## angelpixie

I"m not discounting codependence, or anything like that. Goodness knows, we've probably all been guilty at one time or another. But in the long run, bringing up the money spent still doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> Your first comment above seems to, in fact, be saying that she DOES owe him because he paid for the IVF.


What he's saying is that Soca being fair with the settlement is just another great big #3... He presumed that if he played nice with his wife over the divorce, she would too. She didn't.

And I say that as someone who has only recently realized that he had fallen into much the same trap.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: Losing It*



Conrad said:


> Dang, I'm sorry you feel that way too.
> 
> Such anger.


Anger?

Quite the assumption.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: Losing It*



Pbartender said:


> It's not about _*what*_ he did... It's about _*how*_ he did it... and _*why*_ he did it...
> 
> It was a #3... and a huge one. And the fact that its a #3 that involves living human beings that he cares for, instead of a simple material possession, makes it all the more important to see it for what it is.


And that #3 is on him and only him.


----------



## Conrad

06Daddio08 said:


> Anger?
> 
> Quite the assumption.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> @ Conrad, not Pb: So, you're saying (it seems) that IVF was all part of Soca's nefarious plan to be a loving husband to his wife, who couldn't conceive on her own. It didn't really matter to him if there were children --his children -- conceived as a result of those treatments. It was all manipulation on his part to make sure she'd never leave him and always be a good wife.
> 
> 
> Really??? As I said originally, and as you seem to be saying, you're portraying Soca as having no emotional involvement in the treatments -- he did it to be 'nice' and 'gracious' and to have the 'upper hand.' Not to take part in a process that would hopefully enlarge their family with children they wanted. I'm not buying that, btw.


And, I am truly sorry you see it that way.

I really am.


----------



## angelpixie

Conrad said:


> And, I am truly sorry you see it that way.
> 
> I really am.



Well, don't cry too hard, sweetie.


----------



## Conrad

angelpixie said:


> Well, don't cry too hard, sweetie.


I'll be ok.


----------



## Pbartender

06Daddio08 said:


> And that #3 is on him and only him.


Absolutely.

And thus, he should learn from his mistakes, and stop expecting his wife to play fair just because he does something nice for her. 

Because, if we look at her past actions, she never does.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> And thus, he should learn from his mistakes, and stop expecting his wife to play fair just because he does something nice for her.
> 
> Because, if we look at her past actions, she never does.


She STILL can't see past the end of her nose.

That's all this has been about.

All about her.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: Losing It*



Pbartender said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> And thus, he should learn from his mistakes, and stop expecting his wife to play fair just because he does something nice for her.
> 
> Because, if we look at her past actions, she never does.


Yes and sitting here persecuting her for something he's just as at fault for is ridiculous. 

Taking the kids away from there mother, is far from "fair". Regardless of her inability to see past "her nose".


----------



## 06Daddio08

On a side note (as in getting back to Soca), I've always admired your ability to do what you felt was best for your boys, as it usually leads down a much harder path personally.

I remember being asked to partake in your thread when it originally came up, as I too was recommended to go for the kids when I knew how wrong it was.


----------



## Pbartender

06Daddio08 said:


> Yes and sitting here persecuting her for something he's just as at fault for is ridiculous.


I'm just not so certain that's what's going on, here, even though that's what it may seem like at times...


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I'm just not so certain that's what's going on, here, even though that's what it may seem like at times...


----------



## Pbartender

I do get what you're saying, though, Daddio... There is a distinct tendency in this forum to demonize with wayward spouses past what's due to them.

Because of the hard feelings and the sympathies of painful situations that are all too familiar, it's an easy trap to fall into around here.


----------



## soca70

Guys - this has been a most interesting read...I'm out training all day and catch up for 2 hours with a close friend/ex-colleague and I come back to 3 additional pages! 

So to address the questions/motives...

Early on in our relationship, X had always made the desire to have children known. Truthfully, I was initially ambivalent but the more I thought about how close I am with my family and my childhood, I found myself agreeing to this. In fairness, without X's encouragement, I would probably not have gone done this route but now married, etc, it seemed to me like a positive move.

With the fertility issues, I was also agreeable to the IVF procedures as we also looked into adoption. Adoption seemed to be very fraught with uncertainty whether it was domestic or international. IVF (for us) seemed to be the best option. The process was very interesting, joyful, and extremely frustrating all at the same time. Yours truly now knows much more about the reproduction "logistics" than the average Joe. Yes, it was very expensive due to the multiple failed attempts and if the 3rd one hadn't worked I would have thrown in the towel. I can say X would have kept going with or without me but luckily we had success so there was no need to cross that bridge. We financed this with an equity line we took out on the house. Recall that back in the real estate boom day, this was no problem as we had over $400K in equity. So, I did not pay for this alone but rather we both did from the earlier investments we had made and jointly made this decision (my background allowed me to know how to do the financials).

My shock about the divorce was not from "Look what I paid for!" but rather "Look what we did!" We made a very deliberate and conscious decision to have kids plus the responsibilities that came with them. In my (naïve) mind, this was a promise we had made to the boys before they were even born. Breaking that promise was just unimaginable (and unforgivable) to me. 

So the custody agreement presented me a dilemma. What's best for the boys? However, coupled with a "screw you" emotional state. My lawyers identified the ultimate "F*** you" path but never pushed for it. Just laid it out as a bargaining tool. But there it was for me to consider. I recall posting this on TAM at the time and receiving some very mixed input. I believe Daddio called me a "small, bitter man". While not a warm and fuzzy comment, this did strike a chord. With the help of my IC, I overcame my extreme anger about the situation in order to do what I felt was best for the boys which was joint custody. What X wanted was pretty immaterial tome but I really had to think about them and also how we lived (with travel, etc). So very begrudgingly, I worked with the attorneys to reach an agreement (that had the built-in safeguards I wanted) and avoid any court appearances, etc.

I can say truthfully I did not do this to "play nice" with X or expect any reconciliation, etc. At this point, I had to acknowledge that X was a good parent, the boys and X have a good relationship, I'm out of town often, and that removing X from their life in such a way would not be a good situation for them. So as much as I wanted to "get vengeance", I could and would not.

Looking back, I do not regret this as we have worked out a very amicable and flexible schedule that works for everyone. Is it ideal? No. Does it p**s me off my boys are not home right now? Yes. But this was the right thing to do.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Always the gentleman.

Do you think there is a chance that your wife will give up custody of the boys to:

A. "Find herself"
B. move back to the West Coat to be closer to her dysfunctional family
C. Relocate due to work

What are your thoughts?

HM


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> Always the gentleman.
> 
> Do you think there is a chance that your wife will give up custody of the boys to:
> 
> A. "Find herself"
> B. move back to the West Coat to be closer to her dysfunctional family
> C. Relocate due to work
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> HM


Very good question, time will tell.


----------



## catcalls

I suppose the takeaway is that she is a deluded and narcissistic woman who can never really be happy with her lot. Soca in effect rescued her and worked hard to ensure her dream of motherhood was fulfilled and bought into the whole happy family and kids thing. he thought that would be enough but apparently not. madam is still not happy and thinks she is a troubled soul and the world does not understand her.
meanwhile soca finally recognises that she is a damaged soul and has arrived at a way to co parent which suits their kids even though it means that he is friendly and pleasant to her. that does not mean that he does not see her for what she is and he is rapidly moving on with new teeth and exemplary culinary skills to find a woman worthy of him. meanwhile ex mrs soca will bemoan her lot and possibly in the future (if not already) realise that the grass is not greener and needs a lot of mowing and upkeep to keep in a half decent state.


----------



## doureallycare2

Pbartender said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> And thus, he should learn from his mistakes, and stop expecting his wife to play fair just because he does something nice for her.
> 
> Because, if we look at her past actions, she never does.


This is what I was thinking for the most part, and then all the back and forth conversations kind of set me off in a different tract. 
I would hedge a bet that most of us have done something in our marriages that went over and beyond for our spouse: to show them our love, care and concern for them, whether it was emotionally or physically. I know for me personally I not only made sacrifices for him to continue his schooling. But then when I should have left his [email protected]@ at the door the last time he cheated, I instead let him come back and I nursed him through congestive heart failure for 3 years...no one else was there for him. Not his family members, not his children.. They had their own lives and also felt he had done this to himself and needed to be left to his consequences. But I loved him and felt he needed me so I took that on for him. 
I’m sure others have the kind of stories of sacrifice that Soca or I did for a spouse that not only seems to forget about what you have done for them but almost throws it back in your face. 
It is what it is. 
They are selfish; their own needs are wants are more important to them. Should I have not been there for him? Probably, but in the long run I can say I tried my best and I never stopped being the loving, caring person that I wanted to be in our marriage. I’m sure Soca is not regretful, after all he has beautiful sons because of his sacrifice.


----------



## Pbartender

doureallycare2 said:


> I would hedge a bet that most of us have done something in our marriages that went over and beyond for our spouse: to show them our love, care and concern for them, whether it was emotionally or physically.


Oh, certainly... I could give you plenty of examples from my own marriage.

But I would hedge a bet that most of us have reached a point with our almost ex-spouses where continuing to do things that show our love, care and concern for them, whether emotionally or physically, becomes a matter of "throwing good money after bad".

And that's when you need to start doing things that show your love, care and concern for yourself, instead.


----------



## doureallycare2

Pbartender said:


> Oh, certainly... I could give you plenty of examples from my own marriage.
> 
> But I would hedge a bet that most of us have reached a point with our almost ex-spouses where continuing to do things that show our love, care and concern for them, whether emotionally or physically, becomes a matter of "throwing good money after bad".
> 
> And that's when you need to start doing things that show your love, care and concern for yourself, instead.


Absolutely!!!


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> But I would hedge a bet that most of us have reached a point with our almost ex-spouses where continuing to do things that show our love, care and concern for them, whether emotionally or physically,* becomes a matter of "throwing good money after bad".*


It only becomes a case of "throwing good money after bad" when you give with expectations. 

Even after all the turmoil my STBX and I have been through, I still extend grace to him, constantly - not because I want him to reciprocate, not because I want him to love me. I do it because that is simply the type of person I want to be. Granted, I've had a few bad days that have resulted in less than acceptable behavior, on my behalf, but I do try. In the end, giving (to me) is better than receiving...regardless of the circumstances. 

As stated previously, it's all about your expectations. If there are none, the act of giving is an extreme form of love and respect for yourself.


----------



## Conrad

catcalls said:


> I suppose the takeaway is that she is a deluded and narcissistic woman who can never really be happy with her lot. Soca in effect rescued her and worked hard to ensure her dream of motherhood was fulfilled and bought into the whole happy family and kids thing. he thought that would be enough but apparently not. madam is still not happy and thinks she is a troubled soul and the world does not understand her.


Which is exactly what I said.

I'm not surprised this was done on home equity - as it's enormously expensive and as an adoptive parent, I've been there too.

I simply see this as the MOST shining example where Soca's X displays her character as the worst kind of ingrate.

"No one will ever understand my decision"

Cry me a river, oh eternal victim.

No amount of selfishness from her would surprise me.

There is no one she won't leave (including the kids) if it fits her "plan".


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> It only becomes a case of "throwing good money after bad" when you give with expectations.
> 
> Even after all the turmoil my STBX and I have been through, I still extend grace to him, constantly - not because I want him to reciprocate, not because I want him to love me. I do it because that is simply the type of person I want to be. Granted, I've had a few bad days that have resulted in less than acceptable behavior, on my behalf, but I do try. In the end, giving (to me) is better than receiving...regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> As stated previously, it's all about your expectations. If there are none, the act of giving is an extreme form of love and respect for yourself.


Yep... I can grok that.

Even while the frustrations of living with AXW in the basement, I still want to do right by her during the divorce. Not because I expect her to return the favor or even appreciate it, but because, like you, that's the sort of person I want to be... Because that's the sort of example I want to set for my kids.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Alright, SoCA, we know you've been on the road, but we'll be expecting your update later this evening. Maybe you met a ****tail waitress with a drinking problem, something juicy, even if it's not true.


----------



## angelpixie

Bullwinkle said:


> Alright, SoCA, we know you've been on the road, but we'll be expecting your update later this evening. Maybe you met a ****tail waitress with a drinking problem, something juicy,* even if it's not true.*



Wow, you guys are desperate, lol.


----------



## Ceegee

angelpixie said:


> Wow, you guys are desperate, lol.


That's why we're all here isn't it?


----------



## angelpixie

Ceegee said:


> That's why we're all here isn't it?


Touché


----------



## Bullwinkle

LOL. Desperate would be an understatement.

Yes, I want SoCa to concoct some elaborate tale about how he was sitting in the hotel lobby minding his own business, when a lascivious woman in a Dolly Parton wig sidled up next to him and rubbed against his leg like a cat....


----------



## angelpixie

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I think you've got a pretty good start to that one going already, BW...Carry on, we're all ears. :rofl:


----------



## Bullwinkle

I can't......

I have to go lie down in a dark room now....


----------



## Orpheus

no one appreciates this circle jerk populated by TAM's diehards in Soca's absence more than this wretched old chew-toy of a bachelor... but back to the OP, right?

Soca,

About a month ago, I asked you to make a date with yourself. That should be coming up right? You're in the zone at the new job. The kids are lined up for Summer fun. And if i read between the lines, your ex is well into somebodies' black books. You're doubling down on your Mr. Mom skills but when are you going to take those fancy new knife skills of yours and stab Mr. Nice Guy in the back? 

You need a day to not be focusing on your family goals and being a great dad and find time to figure out what to do with that Playboy executive physique you've found yourself back in. By the way, which month were you?


----------



## soca70

I'm here. Bad storm in Atlanta on Thursday forced me to overnight at a hotel airport. Got up at 5:00 AM (about 3 1/2 hrs sleep) for an early flight back to Columbus. Haircut, lunch w my parents, driving range with my dad (I have to play in a work scramble golf tourney next Monday and it's been 15 yrs since I picked up a club), pick up boys and take them to T-ball game, dinner with my parents, bedtime, and then a neighborhood power failure around 11:00 PM. Today, impressively baked something for breakfast, yardwork as I haven't had time to mow grass in 2 weeks, bank, Target and took boys to the pool. Movie night with them (Haunted Mansion w Eddie Murphy produced by my graduate school roommate). No Dolly Parton but I had some good laughs at an IHOP in Roswell with a waitress named Acquanetta and I wrote down an author list for a hostess at a seafood restaurant in Alpharetta. Now time for an update.

I was reviewing my benefits w the HR mgr in Atlanta and broke down X's cost for the boy's health insurance at $200/mo. I call X saying I would need $1400 to cover the insurance portion since D-day. Of course, push back about this due to no prior notification, being cash-strapped, custody agreement not settled until April, etc but will look into it. Then onto the next two weeks schedule review. I will be leaving for NYC early Mon morning until Thur for sales calls w my boss (sorry O no time to visit his trip!) and then leaving next Sunday early afternoon until Thur for a major trade show in Minneapolis. I mentioned that X may need to keep boys that Sat night. "Oh that won't work as I have plans that evening." Then, "when are the boys leaving for California with you?" "July 18." "Have you bought the tickets?" "Not yet. They are $600 a piece so it will cost us $1800 in airfare." So I do some calculations internally and total this up for a $4000 vacation. At the end of the call, I'm annoyed as he!!. Just listening to this is like nails on a chalkboard. So I drop an indication that she might need to look into the FL or SC bar exam (more on this later). "Why? Are you moving?" Me: "What does the agreement say about my notification to you? Is it 2weeks or 60 days?" "Read it yourself."

And then I do my financials for this month. Ex-company did not pay any commission to me in May nor my back vacation pay. New company I'm not setup for direct deposit so basically I haven't been paid in several weeks and realize I will be behind (not 30 days) but late on the mortgage. So I text X that I need that health insurance now. With a reply to either cash advance it or borrow it from parents like she did. Which prompted me to reply that spending $4k on a vacation that she is unable to afford is irresponsible and to get the priorities straight. No reply.

So getting ready for the pool, my one boy realizes his goggles are at X's and there's a melt-down. Also I had to text X to get the pool passes which were indicated to be in the mailbox at the rental. So I had to swing by. And X is freshly back from the gym, tanned, toned, and perfectly groomed. God knows what's going on this weekend. So I get the goggles along with a check for $1400 and the fact that my father's day gift will be left on my porch today and that any joint activities are off accordingly. "I'm done being pushed around by you and I will proceed with my life here so don't think I will be following you and your family around the country."

Well...

So tomorrow I will take the boys to church and either go out for lunch or grill something and open up my gifts from my sister, the boys, and parents (X's gift from boys located behind a fern).

Oh and basically, I gave some thought about where I really wanted to live as this week I learned I can live anywhere in the country. I have picked Charleston, SC. I'm giving this a year here. Semi-serious.

Orpheus and to answer your question, I'm having to scratch any "me" plans for June due to the work travel schedule so the goal will be July.


----------



## HappyKaty

Charleston is my favorite SC city. I spend a lot of time there. Let me know if you decide to visit!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Come to DC, SoCa, summers are nice and cool, people are really friendly, blah blah blah.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Remember my questions to you from the previous page?



> Soca
> 
> *Always the gentleman.
> 
> Do you think there is a chance that your wife will give up custody of the boys to:
> 
> A. "Find herself"
> B. move back to the West Coat to be closer to her dysfunctional family
> C. Relocate due to work*
> What are your thoughts?



Now you are seeing the real woman your wife is becoming.

It will be all about her because of her sacrifices in the previous marriage or her sacrifices in her career or her sacrifices trying to fit in a relationship with you.


You are a doer. You are a giver. She is not. Sadly, your wife does not know who she is and where she fits.

Ignore the tan, the new body or her new attitude.

Hold her to the agreement. Stop scolding her on her decisions, plans or poor financing. 

Keep moving forward with your personal plans. Keep planning on your future and the boys future.

Because in a given time that future will not include your STBX any longer....

Sad but true.

You will be better off in the long run.

HM64


----------



## Awakening2012

Bullwinkle said:


> Come to DC, SoCa, summers are nice and cool, people are really friendly, blah blah blah.


Hah, hah! Not!


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> I will proceed with my life here so don't think I will be following you and your family around the country."


Hi Soca - 

Good to hear your update, and glad that you are OK and taking care of business. Charleston sounds great! So you are not going back to the life of an LA entertainment executive mogul?

I think the above quote from your STBXW says it all and is very sad -- "Your family"??? WTH? So she does not consider the boys part of her family?

Just wondering, once you re-locate, and have the boys with you full time with no family nearby to help out, how will you handle child care arrangements, what with your work travel? I'm sure you've thought this through, and imagine it is not an easy decision to move, since you do have such a close relationship with your parents and immediate family.

Wishing all the best for you, and hope you can get some relaxation in this weekend.

All Best Regards, - A12


----------



## Orpheus

Soca,

First, Happy Father's Day. You have been an extraordinary example of how to weather through things and an excellent role model for your kids.

Your wife baring her fangs and her toned and tanned midriff might be the best thing that could happen to you. You've been half-stepping your separation (as presented in your posts) too much. She's doing what she needs to do... move on with her life and snag a new man to protect her. In order to do that she needs to retool. Me Time.

In that way, she's the polar opposite of you. S'fine that you're not hitting your me day in June. The point was to select a date and work towards it. Keeping it amorphous and sacrificing it this month should tell you volumes about a hidden problem in your present situation. I won't bring it up again. Just do it.

Lastly, I had a rental property in Charleston (until it exploded) and love that city. People that like Charleston often like the Greenville area of NC too. It's a couple of hours away i'm told; and slightly elevated so it's spared a lot of the heat and humidity in the summer. You trade ocean for mountain though. [edit. i think i still have pretty good banking and broker connections there if you need a jumpstart... best friends brother/wife]

No probs about your work trip. I understand. If you need to blow off an hour of steam you always know how to reach me. I'm actually a lot nicer than my type-voice.


----------



## HappyKaty

Happy Father's Day, Soca! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

Hi, Soca! Happy Father's Day to one of my favorite TAM dads. I hope you're having a great day with your boys, sweetie!


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> Soca,
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife baring her fangs and her toned and tanned midriff might be the best thing that could happen to you. You've been half-stepping your separation (as presented in your posts) too much. She's doing what she needs to do... move on with her life and snag a new man to protect her. In order to do that she needs to retool. Me Time.
> 
> In that way, she's the polar opposite of you. S'fine that you're not hitting your me day in June. The point was to select a date and work towards it. Keeping it amorphous and sacrificing it this month should tell you volumes about a hidden problem in your present situation. I won't bring it up again. Just do it.


Guys - thanks for the Father's Day wishes! Took the boys to church and as it was raining we ended up going to a restaurant for lunch. Back at home, opening gifts, and one boy did a Father's Day song and dance! Since I am leaving early tomorrow morning, X came by to pick up the boys (who didn't want to leave). Spent some time robbing Peter to pay Paul this month with balance transfers on the credit cards, etc. Will pull it through somehow. Ran to the bank and deposited X's check ASAP. Sent my outstanding lawyer balance in. Sent inquiring email to former employer that I need a commission check before I am able to ship back my laptop, iphone, and ipad.

So O, I think you are right here. I have still been playing "happy family" here - (almost?) not willing to accept reality. This week my eyes have been opened to the "writing on the wall". Which has been obvious to everyone but me I guess. As my mom said today, "This is the moment that X has been waiting for and probably for 10 years." And the anger/resentment has settled back in here the last few days. With an unsettling mix of revulsion and jealousy. As a child, I would be horrified by the thought of one of my parents trying to "find themselves" or to get down to brass tacks, trying to get laid. But as my IC says I have strong feelings of what is "good" and "bad" behavior. So X has pulled it together by getting me out of the way, boys at convenience, and every weekend in June free to "be herself". Yes I know I can't control this but these are the crossed lines that I will not tolerate. When X was here today, I could barely stay in the same room or say more than a few words. So O, maybe this is the best for me emotionally in the long run.

As far as moving on accordingly, somebody had a multi-year headstart. And yes, I'm jealous of it. It's been a long hard process to get to where I was at the beginning of this week emotionally and I feel somewhat of a set-back. So I need to focus on the going forward plan. This month really is a wash as I'm travelling every weekday and have the kids for the weekends. But July X is gone the beginning of the month in LA for two weeks and after 7/18 will have the kids in CA for 10 days. So there's the "me time". What this me time entails I don't know yet.

At church, one of my friends told me he has someone he wants to introduce to me. I will have to find out more on that! (Of course, my mind goes to anytime I've been set up before, I'm usually running for the door within 5 minutes but at this point I'm game.)

Will see about Charleston. At this point, I think I just want to get the he!!out of Dodge (which in "Rebuilding" I see is a common thought). Why be cold and miserable in OH when you can be warm and miserable by the ocean? But will have to evaluate as A12 says my family is here. Really the issue is my sister and her daughter because my parents are thinking about moving there also but don't want to leave my sister. A12 - this is the family X is referring to. Not the kids. But as HM says, if they become an obstacle to her happiness, they are probably expendable too. Kind of like "Flowers in the Attic."


----------



## oncehisangel

Happy fathers day soca


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa

Jesus God, bud, I feel your pain, your anger and resentment with what's happened with your family is so understandable. 

I know you have family there in Ohio but you mentioned your parents might relocate to Charleston. I know there are lots of factors in the mix but a change of venue might really do you good 

Thinking of toy, amigo.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sorry, thinking of you.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Cool heads prevail.

I know that little voice in the back of your head was telling you to be cool. Give her a few months, a year and she will come back to you, to the family, to your marriage.

But that "Let's see what happens" plan very rarely works.

You are on the right track. And believe it or not you have so much going for you.

You will find someone so much better than her. There is no doubt in my mind.

I look forward to you damping that little voice. And being confident in your personal life as you are in your business life.

I have been there.

Happy Fathers Day Soca.

Time heals all wounds. and a new location along with a new woman will work wonders for you.... 

HM64


----------



## Orpheus

Soca,

this is the way this goes. there is nothing unusual about what you're going through. its the normal. the thing you're fighting is YOU.

the next big phase is being angry at yourself for letting so much time go by where you gave her the millionth chance or spent time on being extra nice and dotting the "i"s with hearts just to make her smile because you're both feeling bad. all the while, she's in cheap rental unit with some witless dude who has made all the wrong choices but gets to wind her clock.

anger helps you distance. it's a tool.

so, bring on July. just actually cross some days off in a calendar. hold yourself to a date with yourself. i know, i know... i said i wasn't going to mention it again... but i felt like you opened a door. and i get all self-satisfied when i've been writing a while.

glad to see you playing hardball with the previous employer. though, technically, it's illegal. fwiw. i did it at my last job but then i worked for the mafia. xo,e.


----------



## Orpheus

soca's theme:

Joe Jackson-Right and Wrong(1986,Big World Tour-NYC)from LD - YouTube


----------



## angelpixie

Well that's a great bit of news about your parents considering a move to Charleston as well. I would think it would be infinitely easier to move somewhere new with kids as a single parent if you also had family around, obv for you and the boys. But yes, not a done deal, I understand. I guess it's too much to hope your sister will move, too? (This is the one you mentioned in my thread during the homeschool discussion, right?)

As to STBXMrs.Soca, now that you've hit that 'disgusted to be in the same room' point, it gets much easier. That disgust aids soooo much in the detachment process (says one who's been there  ) --- you can know logically what you should think about the ex and not even be wanting the ex back, but until you really turn that corner where you don't really want to breathe the same air (metaphorically), you can't be really free. We were on similar paths and I think we almost had to do it the way we did because of those strong beliefs you mentioned above -- it was as much about us needing to do what felt 'right' to us, as it did reaching a saturation point regarding their 'wrong' behavior. You've hit your point, Soca -- it gets better from here, emotionally, as long as you can keep the bitterness and anger at bay (and that includes anger at yourself).

Best of luck with all of the travel, the new job, and the 'electronic-devices-held-hostage.'


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> As to STBXMrs.Soca, now that you've hit that 'disgusted to be in the same room' point, it gets much easier. That disgust aids soooo much in the detachment process (says one who's been there  ) --- you can know logically what you should think about the ex and not even be wanting the ex back, but until you really turn that corner where you don't really want to breathe the same air (metaphorically), you can't be really free. We were on similar paths and I think we almost had to do it the way we did because of those strong beliefs you mentioned above -- it was as much about us needing to do what felt 'right' to us, as it did reaching a saturation point regarding their 'wrong' behavior.
> '


I had a call Sunday from a former divorce care group member (3 young sons 5,8 & 12) her husband is currently living back with her after a year’s separation but she just "knows" that he’s still seeing other woman although she has no proof. (Although she confronted a friend of his and kind of received half truthful answers.) She was beside herself, not over her husband but over her lack of strength in kicking him to the curb once and for all. She wants to and degrades herself for not doing it, yet she loves him and is afraid of losing him forever. He up and left her this weekend (yep fathers-day weekend) to go on a trip with some "friends" (That she didn’t know who they were after 15 years of marriage)to NYC. She said when he got back the passenger seat was up as far as it would go like for a female. So he left his wife and 3 sons for a getaway weekend no matter whom with. 
At first I just hugged her and let her cry and talk. Then I told her " you know my story, you know how I wished I did it years earlier.... saying that though.... no one can tell you when the time is right for you to have had enough... You will come to a point for yourself and for your children that you will say.... I’m ready... You’re going through enough rejection and hurt for you to be piling it on yourself right now. 
If you’re not ready to kick him out, you’re not ready." People on this site may disagree with my advice to her. They will say why did you tell her that.. Give her the hard truth..... I say, she already knows the hard truth.. She just needs love and affirmation right now. I so wanted to say... Look at me!! Look at how many years I wasted!! Don’t do it... But it really does have to be when she’s ready to turn that corner as you say.. When she’s ready to say it’s more than ok if this is it. If it means it’s over and he never comes back, because that is better than what my family has now. Unfortunately she’s not at that point yet.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, missing your updates, my friend. 

Throw us a bone, let us know what's up, if you're still considering a move to Charleston.


----------



## soca70

BW - here's the bone...

Just back from NYC. 4days of non-stop meetings and nightly customer dinners. Great training and I'm seeing a lot of the folks I have worked with from my former position so easy transition. 

O - I thought I was going to have one free night but turned out not to be the case.

A little stressed as all this travel is making it hard to keep up with the administrative details and tomorrow I need to hunker down for benefit enrollment, direct deposit, etc plus the driving range in the afternoon for this damn golf tournament.

Leave again Sunday early afternoon for Minneapolis for a trade show thru Thursday.

I will be ready to roll at the end of this but not liking seeing the boys. I've talked to them every day and they are doing well and I will be picking them up tomorrow for T-ball.

As usual, me time on the back burner...but this will lighten up and it's what it is for now.


----------



## angelpixie

Thanks for checking in. Try to take few minutes now and then to breathe, sweetie.


----------



## Bullwinkle

I understand, SoCa, balls to the wall time with transition.

And you had the bulk of the care for those boys for months. So enjoy the travel and the break. I'd tell you to get liquored up and go dancing with some floozy but I know you are a teetotaler these days.

Keep the faith.


----------



## Pbartender

Bullwinkle said:


> I'd tell you to get liquored up and go dancing with some floozy but I know you are a teetotaler these days.


So get the floozy liquored up, and go dancing with her anyway.


----------



## angelpixie

Smooooooth, Pb. :rofl:


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> Smooooooth, Pb. :rofl:


_"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."_ *- Theodore Roosevelt*


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good point, PB, just because SoCa doesn't drink doesn't prohibit him from allowing the floozy to imbibe. Not enough to pass out, but close to it.


----------



## angelpixie

Pbartender said:


> _"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."_ *- Theodore Roosevelt*


Quite the ladies' man, that Teddy!


----------



## soca70

Drunken floozies tend not to be my thing nowadays...

OK - breathing a little easier after today. Benefits - done. Laptop, iphone, ipad shipped back to old corporate office with commission coming at end of month -done. Direct deposit set up - done. Hard copy paycheck received and deposited in bank - done. Mortgage paid - done. Birthday gifts for this weekend for dad/sister - done. Golfing practice - not done but going with a "vaya con dios" attitude. Arrangements for schedule for next two and a half weeks with X for boys and dog -done. Boys' gear and dog delivered while I was gone by X (with the bonus of not having to see her for 3 weeks now) - done. Successful T-ball game and pre-game inspection of community vegetable gardens - done. Plans made for local festival attendance with boys' best friend and mom for tomorrow afternoon/evening- done. Plans made for big adult festival next Saturday with said mom sans kids - done. Laundry picked up and delivered from/to cleaners - done.

Now a deep breath...


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Now a deep breath...



You deserve it! Holy crap, what a week!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good job, SoCa. I'm impressed. 

Someone had to ask so.... Is this friend' mom a looker? 

Good, solid, corn-fed Midwesterner?


----------



## tom67

I hope he has some time to decompress.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Agreed, Tom. 

And what SoCa needs is a good old-fashioned scrogging, although he's too much of a gentleman to say it.


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## angelpixie

Is that anything like snogging?


----------



## Bullwinkle

I think of snogging as sort huggy, smoochy, swapping spit, cuddling. 

Scrogging is what the porn industry describes as pile driving.


----------



## angelpixie

OY!!


----------



## Orpheus

what in the hell is an "adult festival". and why did you bury the lede?

don't worry about nyc. you're absolved of all your sins. well, your past sins. i anticipate the world "sinning" you up a little in the months to come. [note: sinning is meant in a convivial tone not in actually damning you to hell tone. my "damning to hell" posts don't usually come with sidebars.]


----------



## angelpixie

He worked for Playboy in his previous life, remember, so I'm fairly confident that he's familiar with the 'sinning' of which you speak.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> You deserve it! Holy crap, what a week!


Week? That was Friday!

More later - I can't keep one boy in bed right now!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Tie that boy up in the bed and update us.


----------



## happyman64

I think Soca passed out last night.

After a day like that how could anyone not be exhausted....

Unless Soca wears a red cape and has a big S on his chest.


----------



## soca70

Checking in as I am still alive here! Feels like forever but only a few days...

Left for Minneapolis for a trade show Sunday, got corralled into a great dinner with 20 people at a steak house here Sunday night. Golf tourney Monday- went much better than expected - will look into keeping that going somehow in Ohio. Company party for 300 customers last night. All day at show today. A couple of hours of downtime and I'm debating whether to go to another party tonight or not as I'm bushed. 2 more days to go! Looks like I will be back in NYC in 2 weeks based on some meetings today. Reminisced with my old colleagues at former company - most look less than thrilled to be here - some actively looking also.

Personal update: Posted my first online dating profile with great anticipation/excitement Sunday. Two days later I remember how little luck I had with that 13 (yes - 13) years - ago. No replies from the ones you want and interest from ones you'd never date. So the bloom almost off that rose already. However, showing this may take some more work than just clicking a few keys.

On the plus side, X dropped off the boys yesterday with my parents for a few days and my mom said that someone had gotten a new haircut that looked terrible. 

Hope everyone's hanging in there!


----------



## happyman64

You keep hanging in there.

And when you see her new haircut try not to laugh.

At least in front of her. 

I'm sure the boys will have plenty to say.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hi, SoCA, glad to hear you're doing okay, amigo.

I'm hoping the X's new haircut makes her look like Moe from the Three Stooges.


----------



## Ceegee

Bullwinkle said:


> Hi, SoCA, glad to hear you're doing okay, amigo.
> 
> I'm hoping the X's new haircut makes her look like Moe from the Three Stooges.


As a Three Stooges fan I take offense to that BW.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sorry.

I was just watching a clip again where Curly is dancing with some woman and his pants are on fire and he says, smells like someone's roasting a ham!


----------



## soca70

Speaking of roasting ham...

Sitting here in this hotel room going back and forth on the online dating sites. Of course, this is my new obsession so I give it about two weeks. And remembering how this just drove me crazy back in the day. Exchanging emails with an age-appropriate potential who happened to also go to USC for a master's and moved back home to Columbus and loves to travel and goes to church regularly and...hello? ***crickets***

Really, I do not have the emotional energy for this...


----------



## angelpixie

I hear you, Soca, I hear you. 

Signed, 
Not Sure What She's Looking For, But Sure She's Not Finding It In Local Guys On Dating Sites


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> I hear you, Soca, I hear you.
> 
> Signed,
> Not Sure What She's Looking For, But Sure She's Not Finding It In Local Guys On Dating Sites


Try this...

"Hi Handsome...I'm enamored by your profile" then I click to pic and it's I would rather poke a sharp stick in my eye than go out with you!

I think I'm going to make this like in sales as a "numbers game". Make X number of "outbound calls" and see if I can get a 10% take rate!


----------



## soca70

And anyone saying that they are "enamored" has "stalker" written allover them!


----------



## soca70

Ha! I took this chemistry.com personality test and I scored as a "Director" personality. It had an explanation and this note of caution. 

Things Directors should be aware of: 

1 You are susceptible to anger, exploding into generalized rage when you feel hurt, disappointed or frustrated. 

2 Your ambition can lead to workaholism. 

3 You can become uncompromising and demanding. 

Sound like anyone we know?


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> Ha! I took this chemistry.com personality test and I scored as a "Director" personality. It had an explanation and this note of caution.
> 
> Things Directors should be aware of:
> 
> 1 You are susceptible to anger, exploding into generalized rage when you feel hurt, disappointed or frustrated.
> 
> 2 Your ambition can lead to workaholism.
> 
> 3 You can become uncompromising and demanding.
> 
> Sound like anyone we know?


Go to an AA meeting and do some 13 steppin hey it was just a thought


----------



## soca70

tom67 said:


> Go to an AA meeting and do some 13 steppin hey it was just a thought


Tom - that's how I got here in the first place!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Well, Soca, on a positive note, this Director personality sounds Alpha. But you've counter-balanced it with your cooking class. 

Bossy, ambitious workaholic but who can whip up Duck L'Orange in a matter of minutes.


----------



## angelpixie

Orpheus said:


> Hey Handsome





soca70 said:


> Try this...
> 
> "Hi Handsome...I'm enamored by your profile" then I click to pic and it's I would rather poke a sharp stick in my eye than go out with you!


Hmmm....so, not what you were expecting? Maybe some wires got crossed somewhere...?


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Hmmm....so, not what you were expecting? Maybe some wires got crossed somewhere...?


AP - I can guarantee that wasn't O! He's more attractive even with a goatee.

However, this morning emails had been sent from 2 appealing-looking match.com members which I will respond to later. I think it may work best if I'm not doing the chasing! Here's a comment "You look exceptionally happy in your pics"- ha! If only they knew...and these pics were post D-day

Off in a few minutes to the last day of this show and then back to Ohio and I'm picking up the boys at my parents. Will probably have a family dinner.

Everyone have a good day!


----------



## angelpixie

Good luck, sweetie!! 


(and as to post D-Day pics -- I was amazed when I looked back at pics of myself in my marriage -- esp close to the end -- and even immediately after moving out. Major difference. In fact, the _day after_ the first D-Day, Chinless himself told me that I looked 'so happy' when we were trick or treating with DS. I think it's possible that even though we were so hurt, there was a relief taking shape deeeep inside that came out in those photos)


----------



## staystrong

Primary - Negotiator
Secondary - Director

Yeah, that's me alright. Cool test, thanks for sharing.


----------



## angelpixie

Explorer - Primary
Director - Secondary

I think mine were pretty on target, too.


----------



## Pbartender

The last time I took a personality test like that, it labelled me a "Mastermind".

:lol:


----------



## angelpixie

Pbartender said:


> The last time I took a personality test like that, it labelled me a "Mastermind".
> 
> :lol:



Of the 'criminal' variety?!


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> Of the 'criminal' variety?!


Do you think I'd admit it, if I was? 

Rational Mastermind is one of the Keirsey role variants...



> Masterminds are introspective, pragmatic, directive, and attentive. As strategists, they are better than any other type at brainstorming approaches to situations. Masterminds are capable but not eager leaders, stepping forward only when it becomes obvious to them that they are the best for the job. Strong-willed and very self-assured, they may make this decision quickly, as they tend to make all decisions. But though they are decisive, they are open to new evidence and new ideas, flexible in their planning to accommodate changing situations. They tend to excel at judging the usefulness of ideas and will apply whatever seems most efficient to them in accomplishing their clearly envisioned goals. To Masterminds, what matters is getting it done—but also learning the principles of how to get it done efficiently and well, that is, at a professional level of quality. However, they may not give much thought to the social cost of getting there, "focusing so tightly on their own pursuits [that] they can ignore the points of view and wishes of others."
> 
> Masterminds are highly pragmatic, and they will put forth a great deal of time and effort to implement effective ideas. They are driven to solve complex problems and to create organized, decided, and executed solutions. Masterminds tend to make positive statements instead of negative ones, focusing on how to make the organization more efficient in the future rather than dwelling on past mistakes.
> 
> Masterminds are also highly theoretical, and one of the more open-minded of the 16 role variants. Before Masterminds adopt a theoretical notion, they insist on researching all the available data and checking the idea against reality. Masterminds are suspicious of theories based on poor research and will discard ideas that cannot be effectively implemented.
> 
> As leaders, Masterminds are skilled in contingency planning and entailment organizing, which are directive activities that tell the planner what activities to do and in what order to do them. Once in a position of power, Masterminds are known for their efficiency and willingness to adopt useful ideas.


...which is a pretty apt description of me, all things considered.


----------



## zillard

staystrong said:


> Primary - Negotiator
> Secondary - Director


Same here SS.


----------



## GutPunch

I took that test. Director for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doureallycare2

Mine came up Builder, how unexciting is that...? I always new I was different,,,lol


----------



## angelpixie

I was looking at the predominance of Directors in either the primary or secondary position, and was considering applying for some kind of grant to study the correlation of Directors on the Chemistry personality test to their TAM stories. You can be my 'outlier,' dyrc2!


----------



## doureallycare2

Builder/Negotiator
about BUILDERS
You are an executive. You are consistent, reliable, thorough and persevering. You can also be socially charming. So you are good at managing others at home and work, in your social circles, and in community projects. 

relating to others

You like people and are generally comfortable with them. Family is important to you and you are very protective of those you love. Yet you are skeptical of people who are impulsive and impatient with those who don't "get to the point" in conversations. 

in love and relationships

As a Builder, you need a partner who knows his/her own mind and earnestly wants to help you establish a stable family life, cultivate a network of friends and build career and financial stability. read more


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> I was looking at the predominance of Directors in either the primary or secondary position, and was considering applying for some kind of grant to study the correlation of Directors on the Chemistry personality test to their TAM stories. You can be my 'outlier,' dyrc2!


Woohoo!!!! Im excited, lets get started.....


----------



## Bullwinkle

I took the test and I can back Prisoner. Most likely to go to jail.


----------



## soca70

Well, well...

I feel like life has gone from 0 to 60 pretty damn fast here! 

Got back from MN Thur (great to see a lot of old colleagues at various companies now) then had the kids stay home with me on Friday (which may have been a mistake as they were terrors!) Got somewhat organized - no travel for 2 weeks but a pretty intense follow-up period. Then last T-ball game (huge improvement from last year), then dinner with some of their friends, celebratory ice cream at our town's main drag "hop" once a month in the summer, watched big cycling race in town that evening also, hanging with kids and other parents.

Then late this morning, met kids' best friend and mom for 6 hours at the "adult" festival (which I checked prior being kid-friendly enough last night w other parents). Lots of bands, kids' activities, over something like 100K people. Adult because it's a big urban mix - hipsters, old hippies, young hippies, a lot of tie dye and legalize marijuana signs, artists, some general folks, Bible-beating protestors, and the occasional topless gal with either butterflies painted on or piercings. Well, I chose to raise my kids in a more urban environment! Good time and the boys really got into this kids "drum circle"!

Tomorrow, church and then a Laser Tag playdate.

So on the personal note, I tweaked my online profile a bit, gambled with a pic of me and one of the boys (thanks, AP!), and well, Soca has them coming out of the woodwork!  I'm actually having a hard time keeping this organized. The upshot is my focus on chatting with meeting determination down to some pretty strong contenders. 1) A chemist who is also a licensed massage therapist (plus), 2) My USC friend (who responded next day) and goes to the other Methodist church 3) A 94% match in Cleveland (who's Jewish which I find interesting) 4) My physical ideal (smokin'!) in Cleveland with trouble written all over the place and speaking of outliers, a really attractive match in Athens, GA! So those are the frontrunners and there are plenty of back-ups. If nothing else, this has helped the old ego as my circles have gotten quite small in some ways and it's been an eyeopener. The goal is to set up a few dates here in the next couple of weeks. 

I was thinking this evening that I have come a long way with this...


----------



## angelpixie

Awesome update!! You sound so upbeat, I have a big smile on my face here, sweetie! (Glad I could help on the profile pic & happy to assist again in the future, though it sounds like you won't need it from this point onward  ) You have definitely come a long, long way. You should be proud of yourself. You've worked hard. 

I also had to laugh at your description of the 'adult festival' - sounds like pretty much *every* festival where I live, including the drum circle, though more hippies than evangelicals, lots of tie-dye and legalizing pot signs (we actually have an official Hemp Fest every year), hipsters (besides Chinless and his pals ) etc. Haven't seen any topless girls though. That must be the 'urban' part of it, lol


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good for you, SoCa. You have come a long way in a relatively short period. Keep at it. Who knows where it all will lead, right?


----------



## happyman64

Yes Soca you have come a long way.

A page seems to have turned in your book.

I can't wait to hear how your dates turn out.

Maybe a little female crazy in your life might be just what you need.....

New crazy though! You have had enough of the old crazy. 

HM


----------



## Awakening2012

Great to hear things seem to be going so well for you, Soca! Keep up the great work -- you're an inspiration!

Cheers,- A12


----------



## angelpixie

happyman64 said:


> Yes Soca you have come a long way.
> 
> A page seems to have turned in your book.
> 
> I can't wait to hear how your dates turn out.
> 
> Maybe a little female crazy in your life might be just what you need.....
> 
> New crazy though! You have had enough of the old crazy.
> 
> HM



"Crazy" as in fun, happy, joie de vivre crazy, not 'bunny-boiler cray-cray' crazy. Just felt I needed to clarify that for the Dating Gods up there.  We've all had enough 'cray-cray' in our lives.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Well, well...
> 
> I feel like life has gone from 0 to 60 pretty damn fast here!
> 
> Got back from MN Thur (great to see a lot of old colleagues at various companies now) then had the kids stay home with me on Friday (which may have been a mistake as they were terrors!) Got somewhat organized - no travel for 2 weeks but a pretty intense follow-up period. Then last T-ball game (huge improvement from last year), then dinner with some of their friends, celebratory ice cream at our town's main drag "hop" once a month in the summer, watched big cycling race in town that evening also, hanging with kids and other parents.
> 
> Then late this morning, met kids' best friend and mom for 6 hours at the "adult" festival (which I checked prior being kid-friendly enough last night w other parents). Lots of bands, kids' activities, over something like 100K people. Adult because it's a big urban mix - hipsters, old hippies, young hippies, a lot of tie dye and legalize marijuana signs, artists, some general folks, Bible-beating protestors, and the occasional topless gal with either butterflies painted on or piercings. Well, I chose to raise my kids in a more urban environment! Good time and the boys really got into this kids "drum circle"!
> 
> Tomorrow, church and then a Laser Tag playdate.
> 
> So on the personal note, I tweaked my online profile a bit, gambled with a pic of me and one of the boys (thanks, AP!), and well, Soca has them coming out of the woodwork!  I'm actually having a hard time keeping this organized. The upshot is my focus on chatting with meeting determination down to some pretty strong contenders. 1) A chemist who is also a licensed massage therapist (plus), 2) My USC friend (who responded next day) and goes to the other Methodist church 3) A 94% match in Cleveland (who's Jewish which I find interesting) 4) My physical ideal (smokin'!) in Cleveland with trouble written all over the place and speaking of outliers, a really attractive match in Athens, GA! So those are the frontrunners and there are plenty of back-ups. If nothing else, this has helped the old ego as my circles have gotten quite small in some ways and it's been an eyeopener. The goal is to set up a few dates here in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> I was thinking this evening that I have come a long way with this...


A Soca update with no mention of "you know who"

BRAVO!!!!!


----------



## karole

You can NEVER go wrong with a GA Peach Soca - just saying...


----------



## GutPunch

angelpixie said:


> I was looking at the predominance of Directors in either the primary or secondary position, and was considering applying for some kind of grant to study the correlation of Directors on the Chemistry personality test to their TAM stories. You can be my 'outlier,' dyrc2!


I'm a Chemistry.com Director.


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Great to hear things seem to be going so well for you, Soca! Keep up the great work -- you're an inspiration!
> 
> Cheers,- A12


A12 - thanks for the kind words! Inspiration is all of us on here slogging through!

Of course, today I felt a little overwhelmed by the amount of "stuff" I've got on my plate. Met my mom for lunch, bought a new copier/scanner (as we know where my old one is!) so I can get these expense reports done, got roped into meetings next Mon afternoon and Tuesday in NYC (had to speak briefly with X to confirm the Tue return of the black cloud from LA next Tue), touched base with XGF in San Diego, bought the boys Crocs for summer, bought some golf duds so I at least look the part (going to keep that up), bought some Topsiders (apparently those are back - who knew?), deposited my previous employer commission check, scheduled boys' best friend and mom for Friday for a day at the lakehouse, picked up the boys from kids program, chatted with the exiting principal a bit, came home and COOKED dinner, then bedtime.

And then on to the still-cyber social life! 

So USC wants to get together in 3 weeks due to visiting family, etc schedule. Cleveland #1 is in South Africa currently on a business development trip, Cleveland #2 seems to be around so I'll follow up more, Chemist is in Toronto for some unspecified reason but is returning tomorrow and sent an email hoping I had a good weekend, GA Peach seems great but really how could I possibly work that?, and new contender - Dayton Doctor - who reads pretty much all the same books I do (well I didn't bring up "Rebuilding" ) and is very attractive.

So on paper, all looks good! Will start moving these along...Who wins Soca's first date in 13 years???


----------



## angelpixie

She'll be lucky, whoever she is.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> She'll be lucky, whoever she is.


We'll see...

However, the thought of WS' thinking the grass is greener, bleh! This is hard work and who knows what baggage there is. We're not spring chickens so you know there is some!


----------



## happyman64

Who Will win the first date?

Why not A12?

I hear she is very nice, speaks very intelligently and is a lot of fun to hang with.

And I heard she looks hot in her pink pants....

But you did not hear all this from me.

Ask BW......


----------



## angelpixie

happyman64 said:


> Who Will win the first date?
> 
> Why not A12?
> 
> I hear she is very nice, speaks very intelligently and is a lot of fun to hang with.
> 
> And I heard she looks hot in her pink pants....
> 
> But you did not hear all this from me.
> 
> Ask BW......



Ooooooh, what thread was this in?


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Who Will win the first date?
> 
> Why not A12?
> 
> I hear she is very nice, speaks very intelligently and is a lot of fun to hang with.
> 
> And I heard she looks hot in her pink pants....
> 
> But you did not hear all this from me.
> 
> Ask BW......


Ha! But then who's shoulder would we have to cry on later?

As an FYI, finally deleted X off my Expedia and car insurance accounts.


----------



## Awakening2012

happyman64 said:


> Who Will win the first date?
> 
> Why not A12?
> 
> I hear she is very nice, speaks very intelligently and is a lot of fun to hang with.
> 
> And I heard she looks hot in her pink pants....
> 
> But you did not hear all this from me.
> 
> Ask BW......


Ha! I'd get in line, but am in the DC area -- nearly as far as the GA peach. I vote for Dayton Doctor! Agree that whoever it is, she'll be a lucky lady 

Soca, I know it is scary to get back out there and date (speaking as one who is sooo not ready for it yet), but good on you for taking this step -- I wager you'll find it really fun. Sure, there may be some non-starters, but just consider those practice for when "the one" comes along. As to baggage, very true -- there are no perfect people, only finite fallible human beings. That's why when the time comes you do start "falling" for someone, take it slowly! Remember there is always the "perfect" pink cloud, "they can do-no-wrong" phase with any new love. You have to give it enough time to get to the "imperfect" phase when you start seeing each other's quirks and imperfections, and then weigh the pros and cons.

Unless of course you're just looking to get laid, no strings (and I'm not judging here), then that's a whole other deal. In that case, as long as you are up front about it, and both parties are game, by all means why not get straight down to business as it were  

Glad to hear you sounding so chipper, even with all you have going on! Take care and keep us posted.

Cheers, - A12


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Unless of course you're just looking to get laid, no strings (and (and I'm not judging here), then that's a whole other deal. In that case, as long as you are up front about it, and both parties are game, by all means why not get straight down to business as it were
> 
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Well now...I see that BW has now rubbed off on you so to speak...


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Well now...I see that BW has now rubbed off on you so to speak...


LOL! No, I 'm not wired for casual hook ups -- and I may be wrong, but don't think BW is either. Except in the case of meaningless sex with Frostine, but I think he is more savvy now to the fact that it was just a manipulation tactic on her part, trying to seduce him to keep him wrapped around her finger. I'm not ready to date yet, but when I do, I won't be having sex without at least a mutual commitment to exclusivity (not dating others until we see where it goes).

Cheers, A12


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, I am delighted that your life seems to be on the upswing, new job that sounds challenging, yet you seem to like, dating possibilities all over North America. You certainly deserve it, my friend. 

And A12's perception is right, I'm not looking for a casual encounter, never mind dating at this juncture either. But I also see nothing wrong with a friendship with her. Two lost souls swimming in a fishbowl.


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, I am delighted that your life seems to be on the upswing, new job that sounds challenging, yet you seem to like, dating possibilities all over North America. You certainly deserve it, my friend.
> 
> And A12's perception is right, I'm not looking for a casual encounter, never mind dating at this juncture either. But I also see nothing wrong with a friendship with her. *Two lost souls swimming in a fishbowl*.


Is that secret code for skinny dipping in the pool together to cheer each other up???

Because that thought sure did cheer me up! 

Have a goodnight gang and a Happy July 4th.

HM64


----------



## Awakening2012

HM64 - 

LOL, re: skinny dipping! 

I'm glad the idea cheered you up, but we'll probably refrain from nudity at least until BW is divorced so we can be completley shamless about it  Ha!

Have a great 4th as well! Let freedom ring!

Cheers, - A12


----------



## Bullwinkle

LOL, indeed, HappyMan!

I'll only say this - nudity is one thing, but at least for me, skinny-dipping has to be in a swimming pool. Lakes or the ocean, there's too many things swimming and crawling around..... i think you know where I'm going with this.


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> HM64 -
> 
> LOL, re: skinny dipping!
> 
> I'm glad the idea cheered you up, but we'll probably refrain from nudity at least until BW is divorced so we can be completley shamless about it  Ha!
> 
> Have a great 4th as well! Let freedom ring!
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Ahh skinny-dipping...back in the day when ole Soca was a lifeguard, we'd sneak into the county pool at night and go off the high dive "butt-naked". To be 20 again!!!

Busy day here getting the home office set-up. Printer/scanner/copier hooked up. New high-speed wireless modem hooked up. Coming together. 

I'm checking in as I will be at our lakehouse sans internet starting tomorrow through Saturday night or Sunday morning. Letting you guys know so that when no one hears from me it's not that I've been kidnapped by an internet stalker "enamored" with my profile! Have to be back for neighbor friends' kids' baptism at our church followed by a luncheon. Then a minor league baseball game that evening with the scout group.

So, progress on the dating front...official "phone date" scheduled for next week with GA Peach. Yes, distance is an issue but we've developed a good rapport online and really the whole package with this one (great looks, a MBA, married 16 years, divorced with a 13 yr old son, many common interests, same age). You can never tell until the in-person "reveal" but this gives you an idea of who I'm exploring.

Also, looks like maybe Chemist next week and possibly Cleveland #2. Dayton Doctor disappeared into the Ethernet which is OK since there was a 7 yr age gap and still in med school (who wants those loans again?) 

A12 - do not ever stand in line for someone.! You do not need to!

I was looking t some of the banter going back and forth today amongst our little "group" and guys, I think we're going to make it!


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> Ahh skinny-dipping...back in the day when ole Soca was a lifeguard, we'd sneak into the county pool at night and go off the high dive "butt-naked". To be 20 again!!!
> 
> Busy day here getting the home office set-up. Printer/scanner/copier hooked up. New high-speed wireless modem hooked up. Coming together.
> 
> I'm checking in as I will be at our lakehouse sans internet starting tomorrow through Saturday night or Sunday morning. Letting you guys know so that when no one hears from me it's not that I've been kidnapped by an internet stalker "enamored" with my profile! Have to be back for neighbor friends' kids' baptism at our church followed by a luncheon. Then a minor league baseball game that evening with the scout group.
> 
> So, progress on the dating front...official "phone date" scheduled for next week with GA Peach. Yes, distance is an issue but we've developed a good rapport online and really the whole package with this one (great looks, a MBA, married 16 years, divorced with a 13 yr old son, many common interests, same age). You can never tell until the in-person "reveal" but this gives you an idea of who I'm exploring.
> 
> Also, looks like maybe Chemist next week and possibly Cleveland #2. Dayton Doctor disappeared into the Ethernet which is OK since there was a 7 yr age gap and still in med school (who wants those loans again?)
> 
> A12 - do not ever stand in line for someone.! You do not need to!
> 
> I was looking t some of the banter going back and forth today amongst our little "group" and guys, I think we're going to make it!


wow, you are making good progress. perhaps you will enjoy 
this phase of meeting a lot of new women a lot and it will put your marriage in perspective.


----------



## Bullwinkle

This is really good stuff, SoCa, when I think back to your thread from a few months ago. Someone else mentioned it but do you realize you barely ever mention X anymore? 

I'm really encouraged by your example, my friend.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

Everyone is going to make it!

Of that fact there is no doubt in my mind.

The key is to be flexible in thought and solid in will......

Enjoy the weekend.

I wonder what Georgia Peach tastes like this time of year? 

Sorry could not resist.

HM64


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, HappyM. 

SoCa, if you've left for your lake house, hope it's fun.

Happy, I hope you're up there in NY drinking beer and eating foot-longs, so to speak.


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> Wow, HappyM.
> 
> SoCa, if you've left for your lake house, hope it's fun.
> 
> Happy, I hope you're up there in NY drinking beer and eating foot-longs, so to speak.


It was a great 4th BW. 

Family, friends, swimming, barbecuing and plenty to drink. 

You should have come up to NY. Plenty of kids for the penguin to hang with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

I should have. Glad it was good for you and yours. 

Don't forget the TAM Festival in DC in September. I'm dying to see what you all look like. I'm picturing you a big burly Irish guy with a mustache and a hearty laugh.


----------



## angelpixie

What? A TAM Festival? Is it one of those 'adult festivals' Soca talks about?


----------



## Bullwinkle

AngelP - 

HappyMan and I have been kidding around about having the first annual TAM festival here in DC, partly cause I don't want to drive to NY. Beer, inappropriate discussion, topless volleyball.


----------



## angelpixie

Hmmmm, add a slip 'n slide and a visit to the Smithsonian, and I'm there. What represents TAM better than a slip 'n slide, lol? :smthumbup:


----------



## karole

soca70 said:


> Ahh skinny-dipping...back in the day when ole Soca was a lifeguard, we'd sneak into the county pool at night and go off the high dive "butt-naked". To be 20 again!!!
> 
> Busy day here getting the home office set-up. Printer/scanner/copier hooked up. New high-speed wireless modem hooked up. Coming together.
> 
> I'm checking in as I will be at our lakehouse sans internet starting tomorrow through Saturday night or Sunday morning. Letting you guys know so that when no one hears from me it's not that I've been kidnapped by an internet stalker "enamored" with my profile! Have to be back for neighbor friends' kids' baptism at our church followed by a luncheon. Then a minor league baseball game that evening with the scout group.
> 
> *So, progress on the dating front...official "phone date" scheduled for next week with GA Peach. * Yes, distance is an issue but we've developed a good rapport online and really the whole package with this one (great looks, a MBA, married 16 years, divorced with a 13 yr old son, many common interests, same age). You can never tell until the in-person "reveal" but this gives you an idea of who I'm exploring.
> 
> Also, looks like maybe Chemist next week and possibly Cleveland #2. Dayton Doctor disappeared into the Ethernet which is OK since there was a 7 yr age gap and still in med school (who wants those loans again?)
> 
> A12 - do not ever stand in line for someone.! You do not need to!
> 
> I was looking t some of the banter going back and forth today amongst our little "group" and guys, I think we're going to make it!


Soca, they'll be calling you "The Breeze."


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> AngelP -
> 
> HappyMan and I have been kidding around about having the first annual TAM festival here in DC, partly cause I don't want to drive to NY. Beer, inappropriate discussion, topless volleyball.


You know I'm in.

I will even ship the beef in advance....


----------



## Bullwinkle

LOL, HappyM. AngelP, great point about the Slip and Slide representing the Best of TAM. 

I'm picturing some teach-in sessions where we all whine about our STBXs and then we get down to the business of beer and general debauchery.


----------



## VFW

soca70 said:


> Ahh skinny-dipping...back in the day when ole Soca was a lifeguard, we'd sneak into the county pool at night and go off the high dive "butt-naked". To be 20 again!!!


I don't do skinny dipping anymore, in fact at my age it is more like Chunky Dunkin' than skinny dippin'.


----------



## soca70

OK I'm out for 2 days and parties are being planned without me?  Geez a fickle bunch...WATAMers...

Weekend went well - jet=skiing, fishing, boating, friends, family, fireworks show on the lake, Soca's purchase of an 84 shot Roman candle, and ill-aimed bottle rockets that hit the canoe and scared the hell out of one of my kids, etc. Weekend ended with driving back on Sunday like a bat out of hell to drop the dog off at home and meet up with the scout group for a 6:00 PM minor league baseball game here (yes - third tier city). 

Then dropping boys off at my parents after game and crack of dawn flight Monday to NYC for customer meetings with a company VP and one of our vendor partners. Followed by long dinner, then drinks (club soda thank you)... Tuesday all day meetings. 2 hour delayed flight from LaGuardia back home late last night. This morning early pick up of boys at my parents then lunch with my sister, cancelled gym trainer apt, coordinated with X (via text which was not going over well) to pick boys up today at 5 PM (as that Black Cloud blew in last night also and barely looked me in the eye today). 

Saw X for first time in 3 weeks and as my friend from church says at the baseball game "Wow, "X" is really out there in LA. Did you see the pictures all over the place on Facebook?" To which I replied I no longer check FB and the reply, "That's probably a good thing." Just when you're on the upswing, cold reality sets in...

And I am BUSHED!

Trying to get something going SOON on this online stuff but this is starting to drag. USC and I know some of the same church people and "chat" often so that should pop soon after the guests leave. Chemist is kind of a mindf**k with hope to hear from you soon to set up a time to talk then ***crickets***. GA Peach seems to be going sideways the last couple of days. Cleveland #2 seems to be the best bet and Cleveland #1 deleted her profile. New one is Pharmacist who lives by my parents but I cant get a real good read on these pics and I can't say "Can you please send something a little more close up so I can evaluate this further before I invest any time?" Ah well...it's kind of fun still.

Hope everybody is doing well!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> OK I'm out for 2 days and parties are being planned without me?  Geez a fickle bunch...WATAMers...
> 
> Weekend went well - jet=skiing, fishing, boating, friends, family, fireworks show on the lake, Soca's purchase of an 84 shot Roman candle, and ill-aimed bottle rockets that hit the canoe and scared the hell out of one of my kids, etc. Weekend ended with driving back on Sunday like a bat out of hell to drop the dog off at home and meet up with the scout group for a 6:00 PM minor league baseball game here (yes - third tier city).
> 
> Then dropping boys off at my parents after game and crack of dawn flight Monday to NYC for customer meetings with a company VP and one of our vendor partners. Followed by long dinner, then drinks (club soda thank you)... Tuesday all day meetings. 2 hour delayed flight from LaGuardia back home late last night. This morning early pick up of boys at my parents then lunch with my sister, cancelled gym trainer apt, coordinated with X (via text which was not going over well) to pick boys up today at 5 PM (as that Black Cloud blew in last night also and barely looked me in the eye today).
> 
> Saw X for first time in 3 weeks and as my friend from church says at the baseball game "Wow, "X" is really out there in LA. Did you see the pictures all over the place on Facebook?" To which I replied I no longer check FB and the reply, "That's probably a good thing." Just when you're on the upswing, cold reality sets in...
> 
> And I am BUSHED!
> 
> Trying to get something going SOON on this online stuff but this is starting to drag. USC and I know some of the same church people and "chat" often so that should pop soon after the guests leave. Chemist is kind of a mindf**k with hope to hear from you soon to set up a time to talk then ***crickets***. GA Peach seems to be going sideways the last couple of days. Cleveland #2 seems to be the best bet and Cleveland #1 deleted her profile. New one is Pharmacist who lives by my parents but I cant get a real good read on these pics and I can't say "Can you please send something a little more close up so I can evaluate this further before I invest any time?" Ah well...it's kind of fun still.
> 
> Hope everybody is doing well!


And here I thought you could show us it was no accident.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> And here I thought you could show us it was no accident.


I hear you but I think the topic of the thread necessitates the mention of the WS/X/STBX every once in a while!


----------



## happyman64

What would an update be without mention of the dark cloud. 

And you are right. Ignore her Facebook. 

Stay busy and keep moving forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I hear you but I think the topic of the thread necessitates the mention of the WS/X/STBX every once in a while!


Every post for the first 117 pages wasn't enough?


----------



## soca70

HM - you'll be glad to know I have not "connected" with any lawyers and I have my first phone "date" tomorrow afternoon with Cleveland #2. And for good measure threw in some inquiries to the neighbors in Michigan - casting a wide net!

Conrad - I hear you!


----------



## angelpixie

Soon you can change the name of your thread to "Lost her!"


----------



## soca70

And for good measure, here's me hard at work yesterday taken by the VP from his plane back to Atlanta as we sat in a line of 30+ planes waiting for take-off as we were trying to amuse ourselves...


----------



## soca70

And GA Peach is back in the game with a phone "date" tomorrow at 7 PM...


----------



## angelpixie

On second thought, maybe a better thread title would be "Working it"


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I wonder what Georgia Peach tastes like this time of year?
> 
> 
> HM64


HM this came to mind Monday night when during an inappropriate dinner conversation, the phrase "Tastes like hope" was used...


----------



## angelpixie

Oh, please, please tell me her name isn't Hope.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Oh, please, please tell me her name isn't Hope.


No, it was used in reference to a 20-something waitress...so it was worse...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow.


----------



## soca70

Let me clarify...this was not uttered by me...

And BW, please...


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Let me clarify...this was not uttered by me...
> 
> And BW, please...


O, I didn't assume it was you, Soca.


----------



## Ceegee

soca70 said:


> Can you please send something a little more close up so I can evaluate this further before I invest any time?" Ah well...it's kind of fun still.


From what I hear, it's fairly common to ask for more pictures. Nothing to lose.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> OK I'm out for 2 days and parties are being planned without me?  Geez a fickle bunch...WATAMers...
> 
> 
> 
> Saw X for first time in 3 weeks and as my friend from church says at the baseball game "Wow, "X" is really out there in LA. Did you see the pictures all over the place on Facebook?" To which I replied I no longer check FB and the reply, "That's probably a good thing." Just when you're on the upswing, cold reality sets in...
> 
> Sounds like your doing great, I would leave it at not looking into what the x is doing unless you hear its something that the boys shouldnt be exposed to.
> 
> 
> . Cleveland #2 seems to be the best bet and Cleveland #1 deleted her profile. New one is Pharmacist who lives by my parents but I cant get a real good read on these pics and I can't say "Can you please send something a little more close up so I can evaluate this further before I invest any time?" Ah well...it's kind of fun still.
> 
> Hope everybody is doing well!


There is a beautiful girl here that I work with who was upset by someone asking her to post a picture on a dating site before they really got to know her. She said she only gives it to the ones that she has gotten to know and have taken the time to get to know her without a picture. She is looking for a "real" match as she put it. She actually goes out every weekend on dates and is tired of only meeting guys that she doesn’t really have a connection with and it’s just based on attraction.. Just putting that out there that you may want to actually be interested in this woman before you ask for a better pic...


----------



## angelpixie

Ceegee said:


> From what I hear, it's fairly common to ask for more pictures. Nothing to lose.





doureallycare2 said:


> There is a beautiful girl here that I work with who was upset by someone asking her to post a picture on a dating site before they really got to know her. She said she only gives it to the ones that she has gotten to know and have taken the time to get to know her without a picture. She is looking for a "real" match as she put it. She actually goes out every weekend on dates and is tired of only meeting guys that she doesn’t really have a connection with and it’s just based on attraction.. Just putting that out there that you may want to actually be interested in this woman before you ask for a better pic...


From what I've been reading on a few blogs lately, quite a few women have been saying things similar to what dyrc2's friend did. That if there are photos on her profile, and contact has been made and things seem positive...to ask her for more pics before meeting will likely kill the deal for a lot of women. 

So yes, it may be common to ask, but it may not be common for it to turn into a date.


----------



## soca70

Well more photos will not be asked for as my thinking if I need more, it's not there! And I agree it sounds kind of rude anyway...

However...

Soca's first forays into dating I have deemed a success! Good conversation with Cleveland #2 (we actually knew someone in common - a now-X friend due to the situation at hand but I didn't divulge that nugget). Plans to meet for coffee sometime next week.

And the winner though is GA Peach! 2 1/2 hr conversation. Almost a shocking accent at first but then it became soothing in some strange way. Lots of common interests/views but enough cultural differences so kind of exotic in a way (sounds strange to write that). Peach had uploaded some new pics that looked even better than the first. Yes, I am smitten I think! So unfortunately the reality of the geographic difference is coming into play a bit but I will cross that bridge if it comes to that . So next step is to get to Atlanta ASAP which I can probably arrange in the next few weeks (I was just there three weeks ago dammit!). I sent Peach a follow up email saying I enjoyed our conversation and the reply was "Me too. I like the sound of your voice!' which is funny to me because I have never thought of my voice as particularly attractive . Well this feels good so I'm going to enjoy it!


----------



## angelpixie

Yay!!!! I'm so happy for you, sweetie!! I'll be rooting for you.


----------



## karole

soca70 said:


> Well more photos will not be asked for as my thinking if I need more, it's not there! And I agree it sounds kind of rude anyway...
> 
> However...
> 
> Soca's first forays into dating I have deemed a success! Good conversation with Cleveland #2 (we actually knew someone in common - a now-X friend due to the situation at hand but I didn't divulge that nugget). Plans to meet for coffee sometime next week.
> 
> And the winner though is GA Peach! 2 1/2 hr conversation. Almost a shocking accent at first but then it became soothing in some strange way. Lots of common interests/views but enough cultural differences so kind of exotic in a way (sounds strange to write that). Peach had uploaded some new pics that looked even better than the first. Yes, I am smitten I think! So unfortunately the reality of the geographic difference is coming into play a bit but I will cross that bridge if it comes to that . So next step is to get to Atlanta ASAP which I can probably arrange in the next few weeks (I was just there three weeks ago dammit!). I sent Peach a follow up email saying I enjoyed our conversation and the reply was "Me too. I like the sound of your voice!' which is funny to me because I have never thought of my voice as particularly attractive . Well this feels good so I'm going to enjoy it!



I was hoping the GA Peach would work out - but, I am a bit biased as I am a Ga Peach myself.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

I so get the voice thing. My wife has a low voice. Not too feminine.

But for some strange reason her Brooklyn accent was pleasing to me.

On our first date I took her to dinner at Windows of the World in the World Trade Center.

She did not stop talking the entire dinner. I barely got two words in. But for some strange reason I knew I could listen to her talk for hours.

Funny how those hours turned into 21 years.

SO I get it!

The only bad thing is none of our 3 daughters have signing voices... 

Nor will we ever be able to go to that restaurant again to relive that moment. 

HM64


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> I so get the voice thing. My wife has a low voice. Not too feminine.
> 
> But for some strange reason her Brooklyn accent was pleasing to me.
> 
> On our first date I took her to dinner at Windows of the World in the World Trade Center.
> 
> She did not stop talking the entire dinner. I barely got two words in. But for some strange reason I knew I could listen to her talk for hours.
> 
> Funny how those hours turned into 21 years.
> 
> SO I get it!
> 
> The only bad thing is none of our 3 daughters have signing voices...
> 
> Nor will we ever be able to go to that restaurant again to relive that moment.
> 
> HM64


HM - interesting I had lunch with a client in NYC a couple of weeks ago that survived the attacks when he was working at the Marriott World Trade Center. He related the whole day - terrible and riveting.


----------



## soca70

On a more positive note, feast your eyes TAMMers on this oven-roasted chicken with quick pan sauce that Soca whipped up last night for me and the boys!

Great weekend - boys and my mom went to an outdoor amphitheater production of the Tecumseh story in southern Ohio with real horses, canoes, etc on Friday.

Pool all day w boys on Saturday and then met up with about 15 friends, etc for a Picnic at the Pops with the symphony and Natalie Merchant in the new downtown Columbus park. A blast!

Sunday, spoke with GA Peach and have a date (first one in 13 years) next Friday (not this one) in Athens. Cashing in some frequent flyer miles. Nothing ventured, nothing gained is my thought.


----------



## angelpixie

And you said you couldn't cook anything! Pfft. Looks good to me! Buh-bye frozen dinners. :smthumbup:

You sound great lately. I'm so happy for the turn your life has taken. Truly a TAM success story.


----------



## karole

Better wear some red & black or you will stick out like a sore thumb in Athens, GA. Hunker Down Hairy Dawgs! LOL!


----------



## happyman64

Nice. Soca is cooking now.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

happyman64 said:


> Nice. Soca is cooking now.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually learned something in that cooking class apparently. Nice job!

When you are ready for some Latin Fusion Soca, let me know.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> And you said you couldn't cook anything! Pfft. Looks good to me! Buh-bye frozen dinners. :smthumbup:
> 
> You sound great lately. I'm so happy for the turn your life has taken. Truly a TAM success story.


Well I don't know about a success story yet but I will tell you that I'm feeling pretty good lately. I'm coming up on a year (yes - one year!) since D-Day. It's been a long haul but early on I made a decision to take this as a growth opportunity (whatever that meant) and not be defeated by this. I had a choice to remain bitter and resentful or try to accept that which I could not/can not change. So worried about the kids but they are handling this fine. The sky didn't fall and no one died (even though at times I wished.... 

I have been taking "contrary action" when I just wanted to isolate and pull the covers over my head. I had to keep going for my boys. I had the "fake it til you make it" mantra going in my head for months. I did the IC, family counseling, TAM counseling.

I reached out to others IRL and on here (AP, O, Katy, Conrad, etc) for support when I needed it.

I have found that there are appealing people in the world that may be interested in what I have to offer.

I came to realize that my marriage was not working in many ways for me and this is (as corny as it sounds) a new chapter with new possibilities.

There's still a lot of uncertainty and I will not deny the occasional resentful/angry thought but as one of my best friends said to me this past Saturday night at the concert, "You are ready!":smthumbup:


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa

This is all so positive it makes me so happy for you. And this whole cooking thing, if it doesn't work out with Georgia Peach, I'll go out with you and I'll wear a pink dress and red pumps if you cook that chicken.


----------



## angelpixie

BW -- Wasn't there a time a while back when you were trying to sidle up to Pbar and get him to cook something for you, too? :rofl:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good recall, AP. yes, after PB showed his grilled meatloaf here on TAM, I extended a marriage proposal to him. I promised him no nagging, no headaches at bedtime, no emotional affairs with male co workers, no I Love You But I'm Not in Love With You speech. Just keep that meatloaf coming.


----------



## tom67

Bullwinkle said:


> Good recall, AP. yes, after PB showed his grilled meatloaf here on TAM, I extended a marriage proposal to him. I promised him no nagging, no headaches at bedtime, no emotional affairs with male co workers, no I Love You But I'm Not in Love With You speech. Just keep that meatloaf coming.


Hey land at ord he is about 25/30 minutes west of me not sayin just sayin.


----------



## Bullwinkle

On the way. Imile the A1 sauce.


----------



## catcalls

soca70 said:


> Well I don't know about a success story yet but I will tell you that I'm feeling pretty good lately. I'm coming up on a year (yes - one year!) since D-Day. It's been a long haul but early on I made a decision to take this as a growth opportunity (whatever that meant) and not be defeated by this. I had a choice to remain bitter and resentful or try to accept that which I could not/can not change. So worried about the kids but they are handling this fine. The sky didn't fall and no one died (even though at times I wished....
> 
> I have been taking "contrary action" when I just wanted to isolate and pull the covers over my head. I had to keep going for my boys. I had the "fake it til you make it" mantra going in my head for months. I did the IC, family counseling, TAM counseling.
> 
> I reached out to others IRL and on here (AP, O, Katy, Conrad, etc) for support when I needed it.
> 
> I have found that there are appealing people in the world that may be interested in what I have to offer.
> 
> I came to realize that my marriage was not working in many ways for me and this is (as corny as it sounds) a new chapter with new possibilities.
> 
> There's still a lot of uncertainty and I will not deny the occasional resentful/angry thought but as one of my best friends said to me this past Saturday night at the concert, "You are ready!":smthumbup:


sounds like real progress. indeed you should you should be thinking about the future rather than dwelling on the past and why what happened


----------



## soca70

Well a bit of a rough day. Took the boys to swimming lessons, then to kids program, worked, and then picked them up early to hang out for awhile until X came over for the exchange. They are going to San Diego/LA for 11 days tomorrow morning. Have felt down and anxious all day. Doubled up on the meds. Even GA Peach texting me throughout the day wasn't really helping. Yes I know to look at taking advantage of the time but I miss them already. Plus, X was annoyed about something we "need to talk about" which I think is that I changed plans last night at the last minute and kept them at my parents' club pool instead of coming back for this lawn concert I said I would so X could see them (and hand out these popsicles like a kiss-a$$). I texted that the boys didn't want to leave and were enjoying playing at the pool (true). My thinking is that 11 days is more than enough time. This will pass- just blah right now.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Well a bit of a rough day. Took the boys to swimming lessons, then to kids program, worked, and then picked them up early to hang out for awhile until X came over for the exchange. They are going to San Diego/LA for 11 days tomorrow morning. Have felt down and anxious all day. Doubled up on the meds. Even GA Peach texting me throughout the day wasn't really helping. Yes I know to look at taking advantage of the time but I miss them already. Plus, X was annoyed about something we "need to talk about" which I think is that I changed plans last night at the last minute and kept them at my parents' club pool instead of coming back for this lawn concert I said I would so X could see them (and hand out these popsicles like a kiss-a$$). I texted that the boys didn't want to leave and were enjoying playing at the pool (true). My thinking is that 11 days is more than enough time. This will pass- just blah right now.


It was your time with them, correct?


----------



## soca70

We have an agreement where each of us has a 7 day vacation week and in the summer Tue is technically X's but we agreed they would stay with me last night as they were leaving tomorrow and going to X's tonight. So the window is Wed night through next Sunday. More than fair I think. And who knows what X is annoyed by? Could be a myriad of things like not picking up the phone often/quickly enough, etc. Really I pretty much do my own thing and if it's not inconvenient for me, I will accommodate. But if it is, I don't go out of my way to. X doesn't push it too far with me and I don't push her either.


----------



## Ceegee

soca70 said:


> Well a bit of a rough day. Took the boys to swimming lessons, then to kids program, worked, and then picked them up early to hang out for awhile until X came over for the exchange. They are going to San Diego/LA for 11 days tomorrow morning. Have felt down and anxious all day. Doubled up on the meds. Even GA Peach texting me throughout the day wasn't really helping. Yes I know to look at taking advantage of the time but I miss them already. Plus, X was annoyed about something we "need to talk about" which I think is that I changed plans last night at the last minute and kept them at my parents' club pool instead of coming back for this lawn concert I said I would so X could see them (and hand out these popsicles like a kiss-a$$). I texted that the boys didn't want to leave and were enjoying playing at the pool (true). My thinking is that 11 days is more than enough time. This will pass- just blah right now.


Don't worry about her feelings. You were within your right. 

Don't commit to anything like that. If she requests it say you'll think about it. 

Then, do what's best for you and the boys.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> We have an agreement where each of us has a 7 day vacation week and in the summer Tue is technically X's but we agreed they would stay with me last night as they were leaving tomorrow and going to X's tonight. So the window is Wed night through next Sunday. More than fair I think. And who knows what X is annoyed by? Could be a myriad of things like not picking up the phone often/quickly enough, etc. Really I pretty much do my own thing and if it's not inconvenient for me, I will accommodate. But if it is, I don't go out of my way to. X doesn't push it too far with me and I don't push her either.


Just tell her the "time to talk" has expired.

The key while they are away is too focus on you. Sure you will miss them.

But enjoy your time.

And spend it wisely.

Have fun Soca.

HM


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> Don't worry about her feelings. You were within your right.
> 
> Don't commit to anything like that. If she requests it say you'll think about it.
> 
> Then, do what's best for you and the boys.


She previously occupied a position where she was likely your social chairman and you would have brought the boys to meet her anytime and anyplace where you could all have fun.

Her decision ended that.

She needs to own it.

Part of owning it includes Soca's determination of what's best for the boys on his time.

The hell with her.


----------



## doureallycare2

You have been doing so well! You are bound to have a bad day every now and then thrown it. I’m sure it’s even passed already, you've been very strong on your stands with her so just continue as you have and how you mean to go on... I think you’re a great role model for some of us so keep being strong!


----------



## Bullwinkle

I agree, DYRC. When SoCA finally gets through this and he and Georgia Peach are in the Bahamas having Wild Monkey Sex, he will have formally graduated.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> She previously occupied a position where she was likely your social chairman and you would have brought the boys to meet her anytime and anyplace where you could all have fun.
> 
> Her decision ended that.
> 
> She needs to own it.
> 
> Part of owning it includes Soca's determination of what's best for the boys on his time.
> 
> The hell with her.


Yes, I played "happy family" a bit too long through this and have no desire to continue at this point. Maybe down the road, that will change but I really don't see that now.

Conrad - I think you dislike my X more than anyone on this board!


----------



## angelpixie

Except you, I hope!!


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Just tell her the "time to talk" has expired.
> 
> The key while they are away is too focus on you. Sure you will miss them.
> 
> But enjoy your time.
> 
> And spend it wisely.
> 
> Have fun Soca.
> 
> HM


Didn't receive any follow up so I agree the expiration date has passed.

So speaking of enjoying the time...

Booked a flight to Atlanta for next Thur returning Sunday and 2 nights at a hotel in Athens for a date Fri night with Peach. If that doesn't work, I do have friends in Atlanta to see! Of course with all this comes expectation so I'm trying to tamp that down. We text throughout the day and we're talking again tonight.

Cleveland #2 wants to get together this weekend but has already expressed a desire to have a child (not necessarily with me - LOL) and I have zero interest in that. So I may cut bait!

So focusing on work, gym, and finding some "me" time activities.

Spoke w XGF yesterday in san Diego who let me know that she had heard through the grapevine that (mutual acquaintance) had died in CA. Took me a bit to remember who this was and it turned out to be this guy who was starting to go to AA meetings right at the same time my X was getting sober. In fact, I had a Halloween party at my house and invited this guy who was all over my X at the time (this was prior to us dating). I also remember this was the night I made my mind up that X was "the one". Apparently, this guy is suspected of dying from a drug overdose at 40. I looked up online and it seemed he had a successful photography career. I still have pictures from that night with him in them. 

XGF also let me know her father had been diagnosed with cancer with about 8 months to live. Tough because I know they are very close. Also, expressed surprise about Peach ("Oh..") but said that it was good I was "getting out there". I swear people love a Plan B around. I sent a recent pic which she said looked great. I texted back "there is a limited window of opportunity here".

Feel much better today!


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> I agree, DYRC. When SoCA finally gets through this and he and Georgia Peach are in the Bahamas having Wild Monkey Sex, he will have formally graduated.


I hate to say it but this is the longest period of celibacy I've had in over 20 years...


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Except you, I hope!!


You know, I think Conrad does more.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Yes, I played "happy family" a bit too long through this and have no desire to continue at this point. Maybe down the road, that will change but I really don't see that now.
> 
> Conrad - I think you dislike my X more than anyone on this board!


I'm really ambivalent about her.

But, I do really like you.

And, she's bad for you.


----------



## soca70

Well a quick update with the "me" time with the boys and X away...

Which has involved going to the gym regularly again after that bout of travel in June, getting a NYC Mad Men haircut (which funny thing looks kind of the same), purging the master closet more and dropping off 3 Hefty bags of clothes and shoes to Goodwill, shopping with my mom for some new clothes and home accessories this past weekend, visiting a neighbor with a baptism gift for her daughters, staying up very late Fri and Sat night to watch movies I wanted to watch but haven't been able to, cleaning out old toys in the playroom, reframing some pictures and putting some of the boys artwork in frames and hanging in the playroom, focusing on work, and getting a massage. Of course with the down time brings a small it of anxiety and here I am on TAM! 

So texting and talking to GA Peach pretty much daily. Going down to Atlanta Thursday. Hoping for the best but managing expectations as well as I can.

Hope everyone is doing well!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Well a quick update with the "me" time with the boys and X away...
> 
> Which has involved going to the gym regularly again after that bout of travel in June, getting a NYC Mad Men haircut (which funny thing looks kind of the same), purging the master closet more and dropping off 3 Hefty bags of clothes and shoes to Goodwill, shopping with my mom for some new clothes and home accessories this past weekend, visiting a neighbor with a baptism gift for her daughters, staying up very late Fri and Sat night to watch movies I wanted to watch but haven't been able to, cleaning out old toys in the playroom, reframing some pictures and putting some of the boys artwork in frames and hanging in the playroom, focusing on work, and getting a massage. Of course with the down time brings a small it of anxiety and here I am on TAM!
> 
> So texting and talking to GA Peach pretty much daily. Going down to Atlanta Thursday. Hoping for the best but managing expectations as well as I can.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well!


Shopping for clothes with your Mom?

What happened to Awakening's offer?

C'mon Soca


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Shopping for clothes with your Mom?
> 
> What happened to Awakening's offer?
> 
> C'mon Soca


OK sounds lame I agree but please note I have first date in 13 years on Friday. And instead of just Starbucks (as I'd do if local) we have reservations at a French reservation and if all goes well, a tour of the antebellum Old South on Saturday. I've got a bit of pressure here!


----------



## soca70

So I brought my mom along to make sure these new clothes fit and accentuated the positives. I can tell you none of my local friends would be interested in providing that feedback! I'm working hard to upgrade the "look" here! I made the mistake the last several years of getting too comfortable at Kohl's!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> So I brought my mom along to make sure these new clothes fit and accentuated the positives. I can tell you none of my local friends would be interested in providing that feedback! I'm working hard to upgrade the "look" here! I made the mistake the last several years of getting too comfortable at Kohl's!


Ok - not a word of your garment consultant to the Peach.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Ok - not a word of your garment consultant to the Peach.


I may have ended upon TAM, but I do have a bit of common sense about these things!


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Soca - 

Great to hear your latest -- sounds like things are going really well, and you've put your "me" time to good use with a nice mix of self-care and productivity...and the continuation of nascent courtship with GA Peach  Your Atlanta first date plans sound great, and I do understand about nervousness and keeping expectations in check --but I'm sure it is the same for the other person, so the best you can do is just relax, be yourself and keep it light. Let the two of you show each other who you are  

I have a hunch you may sweep her off her feet with your charisma, gallantry and charm. As you've said, worst case scenrio, should the chemistry be lacking or other red flags pop up, you always have the fall-back of spenidng some time visiting friends in ATL. Proud of you for taking this step -- nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Oh, and don't dare leave us hanging and not post about how it goes, OK? LOL!

Warmly,- A12


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> OK sounds lame I agree but please note I have first date in 13 years on Friday. And instead of just Starbucks (as I'd do if local) we have reservations at a French reservation and if all goes well, a tour of the antebellum Old South on Saturday. I've got a bit of pressure here!


Hysterical! But I can so relate! (But as the mom).
My youngest always wanted me to help him pick out his clothes and when he went for his first dat with the now wife, I helped pick out the outfit. If the "mom" has awesome taste, knows what their son also feels comfortable in so he can be at his best then it’s a win -win.. 

My son’s wife seemed pleased that he took the time to shop with his "mother" for their date (yes- he told her everything)... But I think that’s a matter of the Georgia peaches personality you will have to find out about... Would she appreciate that effort or look at you as being insecure in your own choices. I personally think its charming.. And I bet a lot of woman would also. I’m in a different generation though so who knows...

I do have a question though. Say the "date" goes fantastic, are you ready for a new relationship or do you just want to casually date? Is she in the same place as you with long term goals?

Just curious, I’m kind of doing my own exploring on this dating/relationship thing.


----------



## Pbartender

Chillax.


----------



## angelpixie

Something for you to listen to on the plane:

Pet Shop Boys - Electric - The New Album - July 2013 - YouTube


----------



## happyman64

Soca

I still clothes shop with my Mom.

My wife actually gets a kick out of it.

And I get a kick out of all the compliments I get from the ladies at work as well as the ladies I meet on my new sales appointments.

Lol.

Our Moms kick ass!

HM64

PS
Have fun with the "Peach". Do not forget the whip cream...


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> Hysterical! But I can so relate! (But as the mom).
> My youngest always wanted me to help him pick out his clothes and when he went for his first dat with the now wife, I helped pick out the outfit. If the "mom" has awesome taste, knows what their son also feels comfortable in so he can be at his best then it’s a win -win..
> 
> My son’s wife seemed pleased that he took the time to shop with his "mother" for their date (yes- he told her everything)... But I think that’s a matter of the Georgia peaches personality you will have to find out about... Would she appreciate that effort or look at you as being insecure in your own choices. I personally think its charming.. And I bet a lot of woman would also. I’m in a different generation though so who knows...
> 
> I do have a question though. Say the "date" goes fantastic, are you ready for a new relationship or do you just want to casually date? Is she in the same place as you with long term goals?
> 
> Just curious, I’m kind of doing my own exploring on this dating/relationship thing.


Well here's someone who's not horrified by shopping with family! 

DYRC I don't know what "casual dating" is. My thinking it's usually spending time with someone while you or they try to find someone "better". This is not my thing. Really this is an evaluation of whether there's something "there" for a relationship. If yes, I am willing to pursue it. So far a lot of my "boxes" have been checked. And Peach and I are both on the same wavelength as to what the goals are. My overriding concern here is the distance but I will cross that bridge if I think there's a "there" there (if that make sense!).


----------



## soca70

And speaking of how the romance gods seem to conspire against our little "group"...

Plan for today was to get things lined up for leaving Thurs - mow grass, make dog boarding reservations, odds and ends. And then I get back from the gym and discover that due to heavy rains yesterday, the basement sump pump failed and I have to deal with water clean-up. Luckily (?), certain funds earmarked for finishing the basement were used for other purposes this year (read = custody agreement) so it's not terrible. But still a mess! I spent 7 hours hauling wet cardboard boxes out and going through all this stuff. Ended up purging a lot of years and memories. Stuffed bear with "We have a special kind of love" - trash. Valentine's Day card from 2005 - trash.

And X's large stash of legal document boxes (25+) wet and soggy. So I send a text saying I'm cleaning this out and the water reclamation company is coming tomorrow so I'm tossing this stuff. And X sends back a text saying that since it's not shredded I can't toss it out but can I go get storage bins and put this in and I will be reimbursed? I said I don't have time for that and it's been sitting around for 5 years. And then X sends me a text saying she will have her boss call me to let me know that I will be held civilly liable for not disposing of confidential attorney/client information. Which set me off! So I said have her call me and I will relate the same thing as it's not my business but yours and don't even suggest such a ridiculous thing again. Which prompted "I'm ridiculous? You haven't said a word about those files and know they need to be shredded and now you want to toss them while I'm out of town? I would help you if you were in this position. So help me and let's drop it." So I said I'd shove them to a side wall and ask the cleaning crew if they can work around them but it's the best I can do as I'm not hauling up 25 heavy boxes of files. Yes, petty I know. X knows these should have been shredded years ago. Agreed to be out of here by next Tue as the trash day is Wed.

So not the day I had planned and I hope to he!! this can be fixed by tomorrow!


----------



## angelpixie

They should have been moved out of the house with the rest of her stuff, unless you had an agreement of some kind. If not, she needs to deal with it. 

Easy for her to say she'd help you. With all that's happened, does she really expect you to believe her?


----------



## happyman64

> And then X sends me a text saying she will have her boss call me to let me know that I will be held civilly liable for not disposing of confidential attorney/client information. Which set me off!


Do you remember when I said to never date an attorney again???

Just make sure the new Mrs Soca is truly hotter, genuinely nicer and a lot smarter....


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Do you remember when I said to never date an attorney again???
> 
> Just make sure the new Mrs Soca is truly hotter, genuinely nicer and a lot smarter....


Never in a million years! However, we did put the "squabble" behind us and I had a nice conversation with X and the boys as they were driving up from San Diego to LA. Glad that they were having a good time (well at least the boys )!

Today, basement water remediation completed and 2 days worth of errands plus work done so I'm set to travel south tomorrow. Spoke with Peach tonight to confirm everything.

Frankly a bit stressed as this is a bit "more" of a first date than I would prefer (especially after not having one for 13 years!) But confident enough in my social skills to be able to handle anything.

Weirdly, I feel a bit like I'm slinking off out of town for some illicit reason. Of course, I realize it's not but it must be the years of conditioning.

So I will keep the board posted as to how this goes. Wish me good luck!:smthumbup:


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> I have a hunch you may sweep her off her feet with your charisma, gallantry and charm. As you've said, worst case scenrio, should the chemistry be lacking or other red flags pop up, you always have the fall-back of spenidng some time visiting friends in ATL. Proud of you for taking this step -- nothing ventured, nothing gained!
> 
> 
> Warmly,- A12


A12 - you and AP take the cake for the classiest people on TAM!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Have a good trip, SoCa. Yes, please keep us posted. I am now living vicariously through so no pressure, but don't blow it.


----------



## angelpixie

Just be yourself, Soca -- you've got more than enough going for you.  
I just wanted to double-check something with you before you go -- you're not taking the Rhett Butler suit with, are you? Might not be the best idea.  

Have fun!!


----------



## Awakening2012

Dearest Soca -

You will do great, even if this turns out to be just "practice" for Ms. "right" to appear in God's time -- so it is all good, no worries. Proud of you for putting your awesome self out there! If nothing else, seeing the stunning "gentle giant" whale sharks at the Atlanta Aquarium is an awe-inspiring experience if you can make it there (early am to get in line for tix before opening is best, IMHO).

Cheers, A12

PS. Report back is mandatory, please!


----------



## doureallycare2

Soca,, I’m so excited for you! I agree with the girls, You are going to do great, just be your normal charming self...


----------



## happyman64

And Soca.

Don't forget to Show off the fresh skin and pearly whites! :lol:


----------



## Orpheus

front load this much Romeo?


----------



## tom67

Like the judge from caddie shack "Well we're waiting"


----------



## soca70

Orpheus said:


> front load this much Romeo?


O - glad to see you here - even with a comment which I have no idea what you mean!


----------



## soca70

And just back a few hours ago from down South...

The Good - Peach was like reconnecting with an old friend. Very comfortable to be with. Wonderful conversationalist. Funny. Kind. Generous. We ended up having 3 great dinners, 3 lunches, over at some friends' house (one who I went to college with but didn't know), toured antebellum homes in *******, looked at historic homes on the market in Athens (Peach was also a realtor and has some pocket listings), scoped out the lot Peach is planning to buy and build to move to, reviewed architectural drawings of the house plan, ran into people/friends/acquaintances in town, went by Michael Stipes' (from REM) house.

The upside - Peach is a charming, bright, thoughtful person who shares with me so many of the same interests, tastes who would be a wonderful step-parent. Educated and responsible. Very family-oriented with family connections at the highest echelons at University of Georgia. Building a gorgeous dream home in a great, interesting town.

Also, I could tell I could be re-married in a year with Peach (and I'm not meaning that in a ****y way but you know...)

The Bad - as much as I wanted to make it happen (even with a couple of "make-out" sessions), I couldn't muster a strong physical attraction. Not quite as attractive as in pictures. Which is very disappointing. Peach offers about 85% of the perfect match for me but this is a problem. And weird as I really enjoyed being with her (but not quite that way). 

Downside - I've been through something like this before.

So there's the marathon date - thoughts?


----------



## Conrad

Don't go back.


----------



## soca70

Conrad said:


> Don't go back.


Ouch! Can you elaborate, C?


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Ouch! Can you elaborate, C?


If the connection isn't there for a guy... it's a waste of time.

It either is... or it isn't.

From 50k, it's not there.


----------



## soca70

Well I guess on the plus side, I got asked out twice tonight by USC and another local "contender" for this coming week for coffee...

This trip did really help "break the ice" for myself mentally about dating and I just went through the paces in about any situation with positive feedback so that helps with the confidence for sure.

I'm somewhat disappointed but I don't regret going to GA. Really Peach is a great person and I could tell and I had to take the chance.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Had the babysitter and the boys today. Went to the gym and spent an evening with the X at the local concert (as boys really wanted me to come). Visited with several friends *almost as a couple but not quite. *



Whaaaa?!!?  :nono: Soca, you got some 'splainin' to do!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Well an update...
> 
> Went with my parents and the boys down this weekend to a family reunion in Alabama. Saw the various cousins and such, compared genealogical notes, visited a few graves, and generally had a good time. Boys were amazed that everyone spoke "Southern". Visited Rock City in Chattanooga on the way up which the boys loved and just returned last night.
> 
> Had the babysitter and the boys today. Went to the gym and spent an evening with the X at the local concert (as boys really wanted me to come). Visited with several friends almost as a couple but not quite.


----------



## happyman64

I am more concerned that he *"had the babysitter"! *


----------



## Awakening2012

angelpixie said:


> Whaaaa?!!?  :nono: Soca, you got some 'splainin' to do!


Hi Soca - 

I agree, what's up with this??? 

I hope your eye is getting better, so you can get back out therein circulation!

Best,- A12


----------



## soca70

Calm down, calm down, TAMMers! In the summer, there's a concert series on the library lawn on Tuesday evenings. X and I had exchanged the boys late that afternoon and the boys wanted me to go to the concert also (as X was taking them). I walked over later to the concert and ended up socializing with the neighbors and with X (just like the old days ) However, I was focusing on a huge zit on X's cheek most of the time . No harm being pleasant and cordial for the boys.

Today ended up having a lunch meeting with a local consultant I'm working on and one of our new product managers heading up a vendor partnership based here in Columbus. Did some impromptu training over at their offices and stopped by my parents for dinner.

Was on phone a bit with XGF in San Diego. Now here checking in !


----------



## angelpixie

I don't think it's the physical proximity that anyone is worried about, so much as comments like "almost as a couple but not quite" and "socializing with the neighbors and with X (just like the old days  )". Why did you choose to interact with the neighbors in that way, rather than making a plan to see them later, and then making an exit so you didn't have to be around X? Just curious.

and I have to say, I bet you were a super-attractive couple at that, what with her zit and your eye. :rofl:


----------



## Tron

angelpixie said:


> and I have to say, I bet you were a super-attractive couple at that, what with her zit and your eye. :rofl:












That would scare some children!


----------



## soca70

Tron said:


> That would scare some children!


We probably looked like the after-math of a visit from Frostine at BW's house! (sorry for the cheap shot, BW!)

Please rest assured I am under no illusion here. But I can stand for an hour listening to a 60s/70s cover band and be cordial to make my kids happy.

Frankly, while listening to X prattle on about going to a Kelly Clarkson/Maroon 5 concert on Sunday in Cincinnati, it reinforces my thinking of what a person of weak character and selfishness she is. If that's being "true to yourself" at the expense of your kids' well-being, it sucks. But I am choosing to just realize those limitations and do the best by the boys.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> it reinforces my thinking of what a person of weak character and selfishness she is. If that's being "true to yourself" at the expense of your kids' well-being, it sucks. But I am choosing to just realize those limitations and do the best by the boys.


That little breeze you're feeling is the collective sighs of relief your friends are uttering.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> That little breeze you're feeling is the collective sighs of relief your friends are uttering.


Have no fear, Underdog is here!


----------



## angelpixie

Now to just find your own Sweet Polly Purebred.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

All in good time. Soca is on the right track.

And your right Soca. Your Ex is selfish. It is good that you recognize it.

And can compensate for it with the boys.

Just watch and listen. Because one day yours boys will see it in her as well. 

That day will be enlightening for you and for them.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> We probably looked like the after-math of a visit from Frostine at BW's house! (sorry for the cheap shot, BW!)
> 
> Please rest assured I am under no illusion here. But I can stand for an hour listening to a 60s/70s cover band and be cordial to make my kids happy.
> 
> Frankly, while listening to X prattle on about going to a Kelly Clarkson/Maroon 5 concert on Sunday in Cincinnati, it reinforces my thinking of what a person of weak character and selfishness she is. If that's being "true to yourself" at the expense of your kids' well-being, it sucks. But I am choosing to just realize those limitations and do the best by the boys.


But, but, but.... "no one will understand my decisions"


----------



## soca70

OK guys - quick update.

I'm in NYC for work for two days and now running off to a dinner date. When in Rome...


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> OK guys - quick update.
> 
> I'm in NYC for work for two days and now running off to a dinner date. When in Rome...


Well at least it stopped raining just in the nick of time.

Have a great date!


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> OK guys - quick update.
> 
> I'm in NYC for work for two days and now running off to a dinner date. When in Rome...


Good on you, Soca - Fitting in a dinner date while on business in NYC. :smthumbup: Do tell us how it goes!

Cheers,- A12


----------



## angelpixie

Way to multitask, sweetie! I just hope you're actually having fun & it's not just fitting another thing into your busy agenda, lol. Thanks for checking in! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

Just back from NYC. Very productive work trip. Tomorrow, my VP is in Columbus and we have a couple of local meetings.

Very enjoyable dinner at one of my favorite restaurants followed by drinks (well club soda) at one of the bars at one of my favorite hotels complete with a very good lounge act. Hoboken (as the nom du plume) and I actually knew some of the same people as we are in fairly related businesses. Don't know about any romantic connection but had a great time. I'm looking at this stage of life as almost a bit of an adventure. Keeping expectations in check and just enjoying the company of interesting people.

Boys started school today and X sent me pics - they looked very cute and the report was they did well. Leaving Friday after school with a mini-vacation with my parents, sister, niece, and the boys to Traverse City, MI (playing hooky on Monday since who has ever heard of school starting this early and I don't think that they'll be missing quantum physics ).

Feeling good.


----------



## doureallycare2

I love that your "having an adventure"!


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> I love that your "having an adventure"!


Thanks for the encouragement, DYRC!

However, it's still not all rainbows and unicorns here. Since I was out of town and missed the boys first day of school, I made plans to stop by X's apartment to see them before we leave tomorrow afternoon for MI. X made me dinner and the boys were extremely well-mannered (almost stiff and uncomfortable). Afterwards, we all put on the Wii Dance Game (or something like that). Fun and X was whispering in my ear about how the boys were doing this last night and so funny to watch, etc etc. As I was leaving, one boy wanted to go home with me and I reply that we're leaving tomorrow together, etc. Afterwards, I started feeling like they are "trapped" over there away from home.

Earlier this week, I had a conversation with X about some scheduling which she brought up the fact that we no longer have to pay the $660/month school tuition fee we did for all-day kindergarten. I said "Good. Maybe now I can pay off that $10K AmEx bill I was stiffed with." The reply was "I've had to incur so much cost for new furniture, new clothes..." I interrupted with a "I don't care" which resulted in a "Soca, you can be such a f*****g a**hole. For 12 years anything dealing with money, you cannot deal with."

Well, this went into a discussion on my opinion that since X has stated that she "does not need material things", she's perfectly content to spend and waste money on vacations while not caring about where or how the boys live. (And my thought that these material things apparently do not include an entirely upgraded wardrobe). It chaps me that there is no plan on how to buy a decent house in this area (as it's expensive). Yes I know it's none of my business but it is with my kids. Although it may strap me some, I'm going to hang onto this one for now.

So these dates, etc still do not diminish my resentment about what has been done to our children. I can't control it so I'm having to deal with it as best I can.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> So these dates, etc still do not diminish my resentment about what has been done to our children. I can't control it so I'm having to deal with it as best I can.



Of course it doesn't, sweetie. Two different kettles of fish. The dating is for single-guy Soca, the resentment about what's happened to your kids comes from loving-dad Soca. 

You can only control what you do for the kids. As long as their basic needs are met, you really can't do anything to force her to take care of the boys the way you would. Keep your focus on you. *You* are doing a great job. 

Have a great time in MI!


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Thanks for the encouragement, DYRC!
> 
> However, it's still not all rainbows and unicorns here. Since I was out of town and missed the boys first day of school, I made plans to stop by X's apartment to see them before we leave tomorrow afternoon for MI. X made me dinner and the boys were extremely well-mannered (almost stiff and uncomfortable). Afterwards, we all put on the Wii Dance Game (or something like that). Fun and X was whispering in my ear about how the boys were doing this last night and so funny to watch, etc etc. As I was leaving, one boy wanted to go home with me and I reply that we're leaving tomorrow together, etc. Afterwards, I started feeling like they are "trapped" over there away from home.
> 
> Earlier this week, I had a conversation with X about some scheduling which she brought up the fact that we no longer have to pay the $660/month school tuition fee we did for all-day kindergarten. I said "Good. Maybe now I can pay off that $10K AmEx bill I was stiffed with." The reply was "I've had to incur so much cost for new furniture, new clothes..." I interrupted with a "I don't care" which resulted in a "Soca, you can be such a f*****g a**hole. For 12 years anything dealing with money, you cannot deal with."
> 
> Well, this went into a discussion on my opinion that since X has stated that she "does not need material things", she's perfectly content to spend and waste money on vacations while not caring about where or how the boys live. (And my thought that these material things apparently do not include an entirely upgraded wardrobe). It chaps me that there is no plan on how to buy a decent house in this area (as it's expensive). Yes I know it's none of my business but it is with my kids. Although it may strap me some, I'm going to hang onto this one for now.
> 
> So these dates, etc still do not diminish my resentment about what has been done to our children. I can't control it so I'm having to deal with it as best I can.


Diminish? Well of course they dont! As much as we may long for any experence to be able to put us in "another universe" rather than deal with our x's. the unfortionate fact is we have to deal with the reality that we married selfish, lying, cheeting a$#'s that hurt us and our families. I know my x hasnt changed at all and it sure sounds like yours hasnt! 
All we can do is deal with it. laugh when we can, cry when we need to, shout if we have to. 

I have extra prayers for those like you, that still have small children involved. You have to have much more contact with the "cruel ones".

My x SIL is in town staying with my x and his girl friend. She was always like a sister to me. Tonight she took me out to dinner and although parts were like old times other parts were so awkward. I had to drive her to the other womans house and although I said "no problem, its fine..... deep down it wasnt...she had me drop her off at the bottom of the driveway. We cried and hugged each other. 

I got home and there was my long awaited divorce papers in the mail... I have been waiting impantiently for months and they choose today to show up..... go figure.....

We'll be fine... we're tuff, we'll deal with it. but I so wish we didnt have too....  

Heres to Adventure though!! Heres to laughing and smiling and living a happy life despite them...


----------



## angelpixie

((hugs)), dyrc2.


----------



## Want2babettrme

soca70 said:


> Just back from NYC. Very productive work trip. Tomorrow, my VP is in Columbus and we have a couple of local meetings.
> 
> Very enjoyable dinner at one of my favorite restaurants followed by drinks (well club soda) at one of the bars at one of my favorite hotels complete with a very good lounge act. Hoboken (as the nom du plume) and I actually knew some of the same people as we are in fairly related businesses. Don't know about any romantic connection but had a great time. I'm looking at this stage of life as almost a bit of an adventure. Keeping expectations in check and just enjoying the company of interesting people.
> 
> Boys started school today and X sent me pics - they looked very cute and the report was they did well. Leaving Friday after school with a mini-vacation with my parents, sister, niece, and the boys to Traverse City, MI (playing hooky on Monday since who has ever heard of school starting this early and I don't think that they'll be missing quantum physics ).
> 
> 
> 
> Just got back from Petoskey, MI. Great weather this time of year. Have some fudge and Michigan cherries. Consider going to Mackinac Island if you haven't been. Very historic. No cars on the entire island.
> 
> Try Legg's Inn for good Polish food, great ambiance, and good lake views from the gardens.
> 
> And...Petoskey Brewing Company for sampling artisan brews in a historic brewery builing.


----------



## happyman64

Soca

You will never win any argument with that woman. She is so selfish that she will never see it.

But you could have calmly turned to her and said " well you think the last 12 years have been about money, but I think the last 12 years have been about how much you have disappointed me, our marriage and most of all our family."

Then you just walk away.

HM


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> Earlier this week, I had a conversation with X about some scheduling which she brought up the fact that we no longer have to pay the $660/month school tuition fee we did for all-day kindergarten. I said "Good..."


You should have stopped there.

The rest of that sentence was just bait to pick a fight with.


----------



## Pbartender

happyman64 said:


> You will never win any argument with that woman. She is so selfish that she will never see it.
> 
> But you could have calmly turned to her and said " well you think the last 12 years have been about money, but I think the last 12 years have been about how much you have disappointed me, our marriage and most of all our family."


Unfortunately, in that conversation, it was Soca who made it about money, not her.

Instead of keeping it business-like, he made it personal with a dig about being stiffed with a 10K credit card bill. This time around, he asked for it.


----------



## angelpixie

This time around, I think Pbar is right. I did have a bit of an inward cringe at that. What you said was indeed valid, but it didn't do anything to maintain or promote detachment. You're under a lot of stress, Soca, so just forgive yourself for it, let it go, and start over again. Perhaps spending so much time together is tripping you up? For your own good, it might be time to start turning down the opportunities to do things as a family of 4. Instead of seeing the boys at her place, perhaps you could just take them for a little walk near her place or a ride for yogurt or something -- without her.


----------



## soca70

Want2babettrme said:


> soca70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just back from NYC. Very productive work trip. Tomorrow, my VP is in Columbus and we have a couple of local meetings.
> 
> Very enjoyable dinner at one of my favorite restaurants followed by drinks (well club soda) at one of the bars at one of my favorite hotels complete with a very good lounge act. Hoboken (as the nom du plume) and I actually knew some of the same people as we are in fairly related businesses. Don't know about any romantic connection but had a great time. I'm looking at this stage of life as almost a bit of an adventure. Keeping expectations in check and just enjoying the company of interesting people.
> 
> Boys started school today and X sent me pics - they looked very cute and the report was they did well. Leaving Friday after school with a mini-vacation with my parents, sister, niece, and the boys to Traverse City, MI (playing hooky on Monday since who has ever heard of school starting this early and I don't think that they'll be missing quantum physics ).
> 
> 
> 
> Just got back from Petoskey, MI. Great weather this time of year. Have some fudge and Michigan cherries. Consider going to Mackinac Island if you haven't been. Very historic. No cars on the entire island.
> 
> Try Legg's Inn for good Polish food, great ambiance, and good lake views from the gardens.
> 
> And...Petoskey Brewing Company for sampling artisan brews in a historic brewery builing.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info!
Click to expand...


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> This time around, I think Pbar is right. I did have a bit of an inward cringe at that. What you said was indeed valid, but it didn't do anything to maintain or promote detachment. You're under a lot of stress, Soca, so just forgive yourself for it, let it go, and start over again. Perhaps spending so much time together is tripping you up? For your own good, it might be time to start turning down the opportunities to do things as a family of 4. Instead of seeing the boys at her place, perhaps you could just take them for a little walk near her place or a ride for yogurt or something -- without her.


Oh I knew what I was doing. Just a friendly reminder that someone's not getting away scot-free on this. Petty and provocative, yes, but I haven't said much for months.

Also, the little outings stopped several weeks (months?) ago. Just now the very occasional group of 4. I really don't have much in-person interaction at all anymore. Last night was the first time I'd been over there in almost 2 months. Which has helped tremendously!


----------



## angelpixie

Oh, then that's not so bad. I was under the impression that the 4 of you were still doing things together a lot (the concert in the park recently, etc.). I also find that having minimal contact with Chinless really helps my outlook on life -- as in, I have the will to live again, lol.


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> Oh I knew what I was doing.


If you knew what you were doing, why did you do it? That's all the more reason you should not have.



soca70 said:


> Just a friendly reminder that someone's not getting away scot-free on this.


Are you sure about that? It didn't sound friendly, and it didn't sound like a reminder. Sounded more like you were angry and frustrated about getting stuck with $10,000 worth of debt that you have to deal with and she doesn't. It sounded like you were pissed because you felt this wasn't fair. It sounded like you wanted to blame her and get back at her for that.

And all that after she gives you the good news about the tuition... A co-parenting issue that should really have nothing to do with your marital debt allocation.

I can understand the way you feel about it. I got stiffed with all of our credit card debt, too... And for about as much.

But what good does it do you? How do think that little bit of banter will affect her attitude toward cooperative co-parenting?



soca70 said:


> Petty and provocative, yes, but I haven't said much for months.


You haven't been petty and provocative for months, and that means that it's okay for you to be so now?


----------



## soca70

PB, point taken. No more drama on that end so far.

And as I sit here in West Palm Beach, I regale you all with a scene from my birthday weekend in Traverse City.


----------



## soca70

And I remember when I was having difficulty making PB & J sandwiches!


----------



## angelpixie

Happy Birthday, sweetie!!


----------



## doureallycare2

What! I missed your Birthday? I hope it was glorious!!


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> What! I missed your Birthday? I hope it was glorious!!


Thanks DYRC! Birthday was 8/17 - turned 44.

Flew up yesterday from west palm to la guardia. Connection to Charlotte seated on a sold-out flight next to a very drunk woman from Virginia (originally Rochester,NY, dog just died in a kennel incident, refuses to ever speak to mother again, trying to get custody of new husband's drug addict 19yr old daughter, planning to complain to USAir about getting cut off from the liquor, gave me a Walgreens frequent shopper card, changed out of a skirt into leggings while in seat, cussed loudly like a sailor - reminded me a bit of Lindsay Lohan's mother). Needless to say long flight (woman next to me said "You're a martyr" when I got a zebra-striped neck pillow affixed to me). Well, with my experience I don't judge too harshly. Apparently ,mother wants her in rehab. Sounds like a good idea. Next we will be seeing the new XH on TAM.

Sitting here in Stamford, CT - long day of meetings and driving. Another probably unpleasant meeting tomorrow and then back to Columbus. Planned another long stretch next week to NYC and Baltimore with my boss then done for a few weeks. 

Dabbled a bit on the match.com site. I have a free weekend coming up so maybe a coffee date. Feel like that's not really going anywhere. 

Anyway, for some reason, I'm missing BW's thread. A12 please keep us posted!


----------



## angelpixie

Haha -- loved your description of the flight, Soca. Your life certainly does sound hectic!  I bet you'll enjoy your downtime at home with your boys. Thanks for the update. Take care.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Needless to say long flight (woman next to me said "You're a martyr"


Damn, she's a quick study.

Imagine what she'd say if she met X.


----------



## wilderness

If it were me NO WAY would I let go of 10k worth of debt. Are you kidding me? Not a chance. Anytime she asks you for anything, tell her you will do it as soon as she pays you your 10k.


----------



## Awakening2012

Happy birthday, Soca! Whew, your business travels sound exhausting. Glad you got back safe and sound, and I'll bet your boys were thrilled to see you!



soca70 said:


> Anyway, for some reason, I'm missing BW's thread. A12 please keep us posted!


As to BW, I miss him too! I can only say I've had a couple of email exchnages with him, and I don't want to breach his confidentiality with too many details, but he sounded in good spirits, all things considered. He has not lost his sense of humor -- a tremendous asset!

I hope he willl check in here when he is able and post more about how it is going in terms of keeping in touch with the Penguine. I joked that he should buy her a mono-fin -- see attached pic (which I actually got the adult version recently, it is fun and a great swim workout -here is a demo of the technique: Mikko Pöntinen monofin technique - YouTube LOL!).

Have a great weekend -- I hope you get some R&R!!!

Best Regards, -A12


----------



## soca70

wilderness said:


> If it were me NO WAY would I let go of 10k worth of debt. Are you kidding me? Not a chance. Anytime she asks you for anything, tell her you will do it as soon as she pays you your 10k.


We worked this out and applied it to the as a credit to me in the equity of the house in the financial settlement. However, it bites that I had that planned to be paid off in December but the allotted funds went to the lawyers.


----------



## soca70

Not back yet - still at LaGuardia...


----------



## soca70

A12 -I just noticed your avatar is rainbows and unicorns. Maybe they do exist!


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> A12 -I just noticed your avatar is rainbows and unicorns. Maybe they do exist!


Believe!!! :flowerkitty:


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> We worked this out and applied it to the as a credit to me in the equity of the house in the financial settlement. However, it bites that I had that planned to be paid off in December but the allotted funds went to the lawyers.


Sounds like another one of those schemes


----------



## doureallycare2

conrad said:


> damn, she's a quick study.
> 
> Imagine what she'd say if she met x.


rofl


----------



## soca70

Ugh...a bit of a backslide today as I had to have X over last night for a couple of hours to discuss behavioral issues with one of the boys and our upcoming family therapy meeting on Friday. I won't get into details but it pretty much went with me being accused of being so judgmental and condescending and me stating that I wasn't so aware that our basic values were so different. Follow up meeting this morning to continue after I dropped the boys off. Basically a rehash and me thinking how am I going to co-parent with his nitwit for 12 years who will not acknowledge that the boys are reacting negatively to this and especially one acting out (like peeing on the carpet in the apartment deliberately because he's p****d) and then hearing how fabulous the shopping was in Chicago recently, etc etc. Well what I related kept X up pretty much all last night so we'll see about how Friday goes.

Just got into NYC for work travelling with my boss a bit and managed another date here on Wed with an investment banker who works 3 blocks down from the hotel. As my X said last night, "Well I'm living my life unlike you..." Grrrr....


----------



## HappyKaty

That last line reminded me how big of a C-word your ex-wife is.

I'm so glad you got away from her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

Me, too, HK. Knowing how much you care about those boys, I can imagine how pissed you are, Soca. Between your dark cloud, Chinless, Z's ex, Script's STBXW, et al, I'm on a rampage about these a-hole 'parents' lately. Grrrr. 

The shopping in Chicago? Really?! Geez, what a delusional fvckwit. issed: issed: issed:


----------



## happyman64

Soca
I have a good friend whose wife went crazy 2 years ago. She cheated on him for over a year with someone else's husband at work.

My buddy was devastated. He had no clue. His wife went nuts.

He has 2 girls at the time of the Dday they were 5 and 3.

His wife left them numerous times over the course of weeks with much drama.

He was very upset but I said he needed to get control of the situation. He needed to be the parent before he was a husband or man.

His kids needs had to come before his own at that time.

One of his girls started peeing in the kitchen from all the stress.

He divorced his wife. She did not want a divorce.
He took full custody. They now have 50/50.
He showed his ex and the girls that his children were the priority in his life. Not his exwife and not their marriage.

Is this very sad, of course it is.

But when one of the parents is so selfish (living their life!!!) that they do not see the trauma that their children are going through then the focused parent has to make decisions that are best for their children.

Even if it means as little contact with the toxic parent and making decisions for the children without the other parents consideration.

It is a sticky situation because you both are trying to coparent. It is even more difficult because you are trying to bury hurts as well as move forward with your lives.

I know you did not ask for this.

So focus on what is in front of you. Do not add anymore complications to the family dynamic at this time.

And love your children as much as possible because you need to offset what your Ex no longer kicks in to the family dynamic if possible.

You can do this. I know because we have seen just how much you have accomplished in so short a time.

My prayers are always with your family.

HM64


----------



## GutPunch

Happy

What a great post! My sentiments exactly.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Just got into NYC for work travelling with my boss a bit and managed another date here on Wed with an investment banker who works 3 blocks down from the hotel. As my X said last night, "Well I'm living my life unlike you..." Grrrr....


It would be easier for you if she were as crazy as Mrs. ReGroup.

Then her egocentrism would at least be funny.

As it is, she's simply vile.


----------



## soca70

HappyKaty said:


> That last line reminded me how big of a C-word your ex-wife is.
> 
> I'm so glad you got away from her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is why I love you, HK!


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> I have a good friend whose wife went crazy 2 years ago. She cheated on him for over a year with someone else's husband at work.
> 
> My buddy was devastated. He had no clue. His wife went nuts.
> 
> He has 2 girls at the time of the Dday they were 5 and 3.
> 
> His wife left them numerous times over the course of weeks with much drama.
> 
> He was very upset but I said he needed to get control of the situation. He needed to be the parent before he was a husband or man.
> 
> His kids needs had to come before his own at that time.
> 
> One of his girls started peeing in the kitchen from all the stress.
> 
> He divorced his wife. She did not want a divorce.
> He took full custody. They now have 50/50.
> He showed his ex and the girls that his children were the priority in his life. Not his exwife and not their marriage.
> 
> Is this very sad, of course it is.
> 
> But when one of the parents is so selfish (living their life!!!) that they do not see the trauma that their children are going through then the focused parent has to make decisions that are best for their children.
> 
> Even if it means as little contact with the toxic parent and making decisions for the children without the other parents consideration.
> 
> It is a sticky situation because you both are trying to coparent. It is even more difficult because you are trying to bury hurts as well as move forward with your lives.
> 
> I know you did not ask for this.
> 
> So focus on what is in front of you. Do not add anymore complications to the family dynamic at this time.
> 
> And love your children as much as possible because you need to offset what your Ex no longer kicks in to the family dynamic if possible.
> 
> You can do this. I know because we have seen just how much you have accomplished in so short a time.
> 
> My prayers are always with your family.
> 
> HM64


Thanks, HM! I gave up tickets to the US Open tomorrow evening in NY to get back for this family therapy apt on Friday. Maybe I should have gone shopping?


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Me, too, HK. Knowing how much you care about those boys, I can imagine how pissed you are, Soca. Between your dark cloud, Chinless, Z's ex, Script's STBXW, et al, I'm on a rampage about these a-hole 'parents' lately. Grrrr.
> 
> The shopping in Chicago? Really?! Geez, what a delusional fvckwit. issed: issed: issed:


F***wit was a word that entered my mind but I'm wary of the moderators! Do these people suck or what?


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Thanks, HM! I gave up tickets to the US Open tomorrow evening in NY to get back for this family therapy apt on Friday. Maybe I should have gone shopping?


You should have given the tickets to your friend HappyMan!


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> F***wit was a word that entered my mind but I'm wary of the moderators! Do these people suck or what?


Once people believe they are victims, the blameshifting kicks in and they give themselves permission to behave in breathtakingly bad ways.


----------



## soca70

Back from NYC. Had a lunch date with the investment firm compliance officer right before leaving. I can usually have a conversation with a brick wall, but this was almost painful. Note to self: Date in Columbus!


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> Back from NYC. Had a lunch date with the investment firm compliance officer right before leaving. I can usually have a conversation with a brick wall, but this was almost painful. Note to self: Date in Columbus!


Was she an attorney by chance???


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> Wash she an attorney by chance???


You would think he'd had enough of that by now.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> You would think he'd had enough of that by now.


----------



## soca70

An attorney would have been a step up personality-wise...

So today, X and I had a meeting with the family therapist to discuss my one son's behavioral issues. I also invited my mother as she has been observing the issues for some time now and especially with these family trips this summer. 

I have been researching for the last couple of months and came to the conclusion he has a degree of ADHD hyperactivity-impulsivity which has led into his previous diagnosis of Oppositional Defiant Disorder 2 years ago (40% of kids with ADHD also have a diagnosis of ODD). 

The therapist wanted to hold off until he entered first grade until formally evaluating him for ADHD. The preliminary evaluations by all 3 of us today indicated that this was the case (I've actually suspected this for 4 years) and that although we have been successful in implementing the recommended behavioral management strategies for ODD, this is not resolving. The therapist has recommended to the pediatrician to begin a small dosage of medication and an extensive formal evaluation to be scheduled at their offices in the next couple of weeks. This is the course of action that I have come to the conclusion we need to take for his sake and also his brother's as it impacts him so much as well. 

Frankly, trying to manage this behavior was a huge source of stress and contention in our major and I have seen in hindsight a large contributing factor to what happened (as my therapist indicated to me earlier this year is common with families with an ODD child).

After the meeting, X and my mother spoke for quite some time with tears, hugs, etc. My mom said X is under a lot of emotional stress and anxiety over this and almost feels sorry for he since she's dealing with this with so little support. I said, "I don't as this is the path that was chosen and not by me."

So coordinated all the referral paperwork with the clinic this afternoon and the pediatrician for the follow up appointments, etc.

Family Movie Night (sans one family member who is on a weekend getaway to Michigan) tonight and then off to the lake for the long weekend. X is leaving for Los Angeles on Monday and will be gone for the customary two weeks so I will be in town accordingly.


----------



## soca70

Additionally, I have been entrusted with the care of two hermit crabs and a hamster which I stated that I will not bear any responsibility if one of these creatures meets with an unfortunate end.


----------



## angelpixie

Well, I'm glad that your DS will be starting a new treatment regimen. I really hope it works for him. Good for you for telling it straight to your mom. I was shocked she'd say something like that to you after everything. X deserves no sympathy for her 'lack of support.' She had a husband. Things could have been salvaged. She didn't have to be in this spot. Your mom would realize this, I would have thought.

Oh well, I hope movie night (sans one) is enjoyable, and that you'll enjoy hanging out at home for a while. Have fun at the lake!


----------



## happyman64

I don't feel bad for your Ex either.

When the going got tough she got going.....

And yes this happens too many families. Very sad.

Glad you are handling this issue.

HM


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Additionally, I have been entrusted with the care of two hermit crabs and a hamster which I stated that I will not bear any responsibility if one of these creatures meets with an unfortunate end.



I know nothing about the care of either type of creature, but my guess is that you shouldn't bunk them all together. That's all I got.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> I know nothing about the care of either type of creature, but my guess is that you shouldn't bunk them all together. That's all I got.


They are in separate "housing" and apparently fairly low maintenance and the boys know what to do as well. We'll see...if I kill one, the boys will be distraught so just what I need - additional pressure!

Also, I was surprised by mom's comments and told her so. She said that even though it will never be the same, she does miss X as part of the family and it does seem like X is trying to work with DS here.

I don't know if you guys recall from the beginning that we were all very tight. I'm sure this is a momentary lapse and the resentment will be back shortly!


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> They are in separate "housing" and apparently fairly low maintenance and the boys know what to do as well. We'll see...if I kill one, the boys will be distraught so just what I need - additional pressure!
> 
> Also, I was surprised by mom's comments and told her so. She said that even though it will never be the same, she does miss X as part of the family and it does seem like X is trying to work with DS here.
> 
> I don't know if you guys recall from the beginning that we were all very tight. I'm sure this is a momentary lapse and the resentment will be back shortly!


I did have some crab legs tonightanyway


----------



## soca70

tom67 said:


> I did have some crab legs tonightanyway


Well Tom I'm not sure these are even appetizer size!


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> They are in separate "housing" and apparently fairly low maintenance and the boys know what to do as well. We'll see...if I kill one, the boys will be distraught so just what I need - additional pressure!
> 
> Also, I was surprised by mom's comments and told her so. She said that even though it will never be the same, she does miss X as part of the family and it does seem like X is trying to work with DS here.
> 
> I don't know if you guys recall from the beginning that we were all very tight. I'm sure this is a momentary lapse and the resentment will be back shortly!


Soca

Your mom is wise. And long term resentment solves nothing. I know it hurts you and I am not siding with the lawyer because I personally think she is an idiot (no offense btw).

But in the end if you, your Mom and your Ex have dear sons best interests at heart then focus on that and only that when together.

Yes the divorce does/did not help your sons condition.

But in the end dear son/s are the primary concern. 

It is always hard swallowing the bitter pill especially when the Ex is selfish in our own eyes.

But knowing you on TAM I look forward to you rising above all the pettiness and soaring forward in this new endeavor.

And might I remind you that the next Mrs Soca has to be smarter, prettier and at least 6-8 years younger than ex to make your point that she is the ultimate doofus......

And one more point the next Mrs Soca has to love and handle a house full of men. :smthumbup:

HM


----------



## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> Your mom is wise. And long term resentment solves nothing. I know it hurts you and I am not siding with the lawyer because I personally think she is an idiot (no offense btw).
> 
> But in the end if you, your Mom and your Ex have dear sons best interests at heart then focus on that and only that when together.
> 
> Yes the divorce does/did not help your sons condition.
> 
> But in the end dear son/s are the primary concern.
> 
> It is always hard swallowing the bitter pill especially when the Ex is selfish in our own eyes.
> 
> But knowing you on TAM I look forward to you rising above all the pettiness and soaring forward in this new endeavor.
> 
> And might I remind you that the next Mrs Soca has to be smarter, prettier and at least 6-8 years younger than ex to make your point that she is the ultimate doofus......
> 
> And one more point the next Mrs Soca has to love and handle a house full of men. :smthumbup:
> 
> HM


Happy Man How does a man from NYC sound so prophetic?

I love your contributions to this forum Your last 2 were amazing

It seems to me that you know your own opinion is not as important as the getting to the truth and the wellbeing of the OP and all involved in his or her story

You sir are a gentleman in every sense of the word


----------



## happyman64

Ah 55 your compliment made me chuckle.

I am a father of 3 daughters like Soca is a dad.

I was screwed over many years ago like most on Tam.

But I was lucky because we were only engaged and had no children.

I vetted my wife over 7 years before I married her. I will be married 22 years this November.

Prophetic No!

Wise. Yes. I am in a place in life where I am healed. I made myself a promise I would never allow a loved one to ever put me in a crappy position ever again.

I am loyal, honest to a fault and respectful. And I raise my children with those same values.

But TBH my wife must be given some of the credit. I married someone that has higher self esteem than I do. That would do anything for me or our children. That loves her parents and my parents as much as I do. That respects our marriage and works on it everyday.

I will end this rant by saying that I hope Soca and the rest of you find what I did. Happiness. The secret is making enough of it that it spills over onto your loved ones, friends and family.

Thanks for the kudos but I truly do not deserve them.

Peace

HM


----------



## Conrad

Happy,

You da man.


----------



## angelpixie

And humble, to boot.


----------



## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Ah 55 your compliment made me chuckle.
> 
> I am a father of 3 daughters like Soca is a dad.
> 
> I was screwed over many years ago like most on Tam.
> 
> But I was lucky because we were only engaged and had no children.
> 
> I vetted my wife over 7 years before I married her. I will be married 22 years this November.
> 
> Prophetic No!
> 
> Wise. Yes. I am in a place in life where I am healed. I made myself a promise I would never allow a loved one to ever put me in a crappy position ever again.
> 
> I am loyal, honest to a fault and respectful. And I raise my children with those same values.
> 
> But TBH my wife must be given some of the credit. I married someone that has higher self esteem than I do. That would do anything for me or our children. That loves her parents and my parents as much as I do. That respects our marriage and works on it everyday.
> 
> I will end this rant by saying that I hope Soca and the rest of you find what I did. Happiness. The secret is making enough of it that it spills over onto your loved ones, friends and family.
> 
> Thanks for the kudos but I truly do not deserve them.
> 
> Peace
> 
> HM


Others would disagree on your deserving see all the posts that support my view

Soca is a lucky man to have your advise as well as many others
Keep up the great work

D


----------



## soca70

just got it 55 said:


> Others would disagree on your deserving see all the posts that support my view
> 
> Soca is a lucky man to have your advise as well as many others
> Keep up the great work
> 
> D


JGI55-

Yes HM64 is "the bomb" definitely. There are folks on here like this (and AP among others) who could have careers in professional counseling. It's amazing the advice and support that's given and received on TAM. I could not be pulling through this without this forum as a resource.

As an update, just got back this evening from a long weekend at the lake house (still have the sea legs motion from the boat!). Boys really came into their own with the water and my niece. Got the confidence to start jumping off the dock, boat, huge inflatable, kayaking, fishing, tubing etc. They had a really great time and were worn out every night. 

My one boy says that the lake house is his "home" which is interesting as he refers to my house as "Dada's house" and the apartment as X's with no references to "our" house (even though I keep repeating that my house is our house). I sent some pics of all this to X ostensibly as an FYI but really to rub salt in the wound (no comments please! ).


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> JGI55-
> 
> Yes HM64 is "the bomb" definitely. There are folks on here like this (and AP among others) who could have careers in professional counseling. It's amazing the advice and support that's given and received on TAM. I could not be pulling through this without this forum as a resource.
> 
> As an update, just got back this evening from a long weekend at the lake house (still have the sea legs motion from the boat!). Boys really came into their own with the water and my niece. Got the confidence to start jumping off the dock, boat, huge inflatable, kayaking, fishing, tubing etc. They had a really great time and were worn out every night.
> 
> My one boy says that the lake house is his "home" which is interesting as he refers to my house as "Dada's house" and the apartment as X's with no references to "our" house (even though I keep repeating that my house is our house). I sent some pics of all this to X ostensibly as an FYI but really to rub salt in the wound (no comments please! ).


Oh No.

I think sharing pics of the fun with her children that she is missing is quite fine.

You are a thoughtful father to include her in their activities with you.


----------



## doureallycare2

You know what... I love the "salt in the wound" She deserves it...


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> You know what... I love the "salt in the wound" She deserves it...


I would love to see all of us at a dinner party - the snark would be unbelievable!

Met with the pediatrician today and we are starting a low dose of Focalin for DS2 on Friday as a trial for 2 weeks. She was surprisingly supportive of this strategy - the practice strikes me as somewhat "holistic" and "less is more". I felt good after the appointment. Discussed with X in Los Angeles. XMIL had some input and I was thinking "Who the f**k cares?" but said I'd mention it to the doctor which I did.

Sent off my first major contract at work to a 5-star landmark NYC property client. I would like to see that closed quickly to start getting some numbers on the board. Will be sending out an additional contract to one of my former major customers tomorrow. Since I'm in town for 2 weeks trying to catch up on the admin side.

Coordinated with a couple of dads at school to get the boys signed up for a local scout group with several of their school friends (which X had initiated a few weeks ago while I was out of town but didn't get around to the follow through). Looking at a list of activities for fall/winter to sign up for.

Have a lunch date tomorrow. This one is interesting. 36, interior designer, relocated to Columbus about 6 months ago to be close to family (brother lives in my town) from Atlanta with adopted 6 year old son from Guatemala who is also in first grade as the husband DIED at 46 from an unexpected heart attack 2 years ago. We really hit it off on the phone (means not much I know) but I'm looking forward to this one as we had a pretty entertaining conversation. We shall see...

So plugging away for now...


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> I would love to see all of us at a dinner party - the snark would be unbelievable!


----------



## soca70

AP - hilarious!

As an FYI, I had a total dinner fail tonight as I was planning on cooking this roasted pork I had in the fridge and these potatoes I picked up at the store today. As I'm getting all this ready, I see the pork expired in MARCH and I still examined it closely to see if it was OK. I reluctantly tossed it and ended up serving Pepperoni Pizza Lean Pockets. And capping it off with a pre-bedtime viewing of "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo". I'm surprised Children's Services hasn't been called!


----------



## Tron

Costs out the azz, but have had good luck with Focalin with my middle one. Counting the months until they come out with a generic.

It sucks to have to make that commitment, but will work out for the best. 

Good luck Soca.


----------



## angelpixie

If it had been in the freezer all that time and you just thawed it to cook today, you'd have been fine, just an FYI. Ground meat doesn't last as long in the freezer, but things like roasts last a lot longer. But if it's been in the fridge since March?


----------



## happyman64

Good Luck with the lunch date and I hope it turns out better than dinner. The age is just right for you in IMO. 

Thanks for the tip AP about the meat in the freezer.

Even I did not know that.

HM


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


>


_Erect and sublime, for one moment of time,
In the next, that wild figure they saw
(As if stung by a spasm) plunge into a chasm,
While they waited and listened in awe.

"It's a Snark!" was the sound that first came to their ears,
And seemed almost too good to be true.
Then followed a torrent of laughter and cheers:
Then the ominous words "It's a Boo—"

Then, silence. Some fancied they heard in the air
A weary and wandering sigh
That sounded like "-jum!" but the others declare
It was only a breeze that went by.

They hunted till darkness came on, but they found
Not a button, or feather, or mark,
By which they could tell that they stood on the ground
Where the Baker had met with the Snark.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee,
He had softly and suddenly vanished away—
For the Snark was a Boojum, you see._


----------



## doureallycare2

Lol..luv it angel.... I'm for that dinner party!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LIMBOLADY

It took me nearly a week to read this entire thread.

What an incredible ordeal you have had to deal with and yet you have come out on top. 

This thread has given me a lot of hope for the future.

Thank you.


----------



## soca70

Tron said:


> Costs out the azz, but have had good luck with Focalin with my middle one. Counting the months until they come out with a generic.
> 
> It sucks to have to make that commitment, but will work out for the best.
> 
> Good luck Soca.


Thanks, Tron! We start this tomorrow.


----------



## soca70

LIMBOLADY said:


> It took me nearly a week to read this entire thread.
> 
> What an incredible ordeal you have had to deal with and yet you have come out on top.
> 
> This thread has given me a lot of hope for the future.
> 
> Thank you.


LL-

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I am glad you have found some encouragement from it. Reading other people's stories and recovery helped me tremendously (even if I felt there was no way I could relate at the time). 

I don't know about "on top" but I am coming through. End of this month is 1 year since D-day.

I asked (no 2X4s please) my X two weeks ago whether she's happy now and the reply was "Well..." Not what I would call rousing.

Lunch date with the Widow (ha! that term!) got moved to today due to their school being closed yesterday due to Rosh Hoshanna. Will update later!


----------



## Awakening2012

soca70 said:


> Thanks, Tron! We start this tomorrow.


Maybe you've already looked into this, and I don't know anything about that particular Rx, but for some newer and costlier specialty medications, the manufacturer offers patient assistance programs that can get you a deep discount. I got such help for the new generation anti-coagulant drug I'm on. Just a thought.


----------



## LIMBOLADY

soca70 said:


> LL-
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read this and I am glad you have found some encouragement from it. Reading other people's stories and recovery helped me tremendously (even if I felt there was no way I could relate at the time).
> 
> I don't know about "on top" but I am coming through. End of this month is 1 year since D-day.
> 
> I asked (no 2X4s please) my X two weeks ago whether she's happy now and the reply was "Well..." Not what I would call rousing.
> 
> Lunch date with the Widow (ha! that term!) got moved to today due to their school being closed yesterday due to Rosh Hoshanna. Will update later!


SOCA,

I have read quite a lot of posts on this site but I found your story to be the most similar to mine in that we also have two boys (mine are a little older than yours) and how are they going to deal with all of this.???. Our family is very close with the activities we do together. It is always the four of us. I have a hard time imagining that ending.

My STBXH also just dropped the bomb on me one day saying that he was "out" and that I should have seen this coming. I tried very hard to convince him this is not best for our boy's but he disagrees.

Anyway, maybe saying that you "came out on top" was the wrong wording. I guess it's more that you survived it and are going on and your children seem to be doing ok now. I worry the most for my boys because I never, ever wanted this for them.

Okay, I think I am hijacking this thread.

Good luck on your date and thanks for responding.


----------



## soca70

Well I'm going to vent and b***h for a moment so bear with me...

I'm tired and stressed today. Spent the weekend for two days at the local school district fundraising festival. Boys loved it and we had a great time. Lots of friends, parents, etc. This town you can just show up and know people and walk everywhere. Got the boys signed up for a local scout group (Y-Tribes) that a lot of their school friends do and I know the leader dads who I had been playing email tag with but ran into. I can never move them from here as this is too good of a set-up for them.

Soccer starts Wednesday. Picture Day is Wednesday. Sneaked the Focalin in my one son's yogurt the first day but he caught something "off" the second day so I sneaked it into a cinnamon roll but around noon yesterday. As a result, he was up until 11:30 last night. ALso, I came clean with him on the medication as the sneaking this into his food seemed "sneaky" and kind of like "Flowers in the Attic" where the mom poisons her kids with arsenic sprinkled over powdered donuts. I felt being upfront will allow him to be empowered to work with me and the doctor to help with these issues. Today went very smoothly so I'm cautiously optimistic.

Had to run the dog into the vet for some emergency treatment today for an allergic reaction that caused her to gnaw some areas that became infected. And this was after running to the grocery store for the week's groceries and going to the gym and working and getting the boys at school by 5:15 then cooking dinner.

My X complained about my travel schedule but the max I was ever out was 4 nights. We're looking at 20 days here due to flight schedules. Just send the checks, hon, I've got it covered. Oh and the hermit crabs and the hamster are still alive and kicking as well.

Date his past Friday as I mentioned. Well, if I thought I had issues...However, will do an intro to my best friends here who also have adopted children from Guatemala. Maybe they can bond.

Which leaves me thinking about the dating thing. My mutual interests tend to live in Seattle, DC, or Chicago so that doesn't help much. I'm running around too busy now to join any activities. I actually thought about asking the vet out today (no ring) but did a quick google search while the dog was being worked on and unfortunately found out she was married. So not feeling it right now but can see how I ended up with my X back in the day.

So just grinding this week out...


----------



## happyman64

Have I ever said how nice you b!tch and vent on TAM???

It is good being busy and yes your Ex's travel is worse than your 4 days away at a time.

And I know how badly you want to replace her but if you if you think like that you will most likely end up with someone just like her.

Patience Soca.

Good things happen to those who wait. But in all honesty good things happen to good people.

So keep looking out for someone good. There must be a million nice ladies right by you and the boys.

Sooner or later when you stop trying so hard you will eventually trip over her.

Or maybe as you are tying your boys shoes , she will trip over you.

Patience.....

HM


----------



## angelpixie

Great positive post, HM! 

Sorry that you're so stressed out, Soca --jeepers, my bp went up just reading it, lol. Though your reference to Flowers in the Attic almost made me choke on my beverage. :rofl: I think it's great that you decided to be upfront. You're right, let DS know that you think he's enough of a 'big boy' that you can trust him with that knowledge, and hopefully, he'll rise to the occasion. 

And, yeah, what can I say? The dating game really sucks. Just keep living your life and like Happy says, maybe someone will trip over another someone...and the result will be romantic comedy material and not a personal injury lawsuit.


----------



## doureallycare2

soca70 said:


> Well I'm going to vent and b***h for a moment so bear with me...
> 
> I'm tired and stressed today. Spent the weekend for two days at the local school district fundraising festival. Boys loved it and we had a great time. Lots of friends, parents, etc. This town you can just show up and know people and walk everywhere. Got the boys signed up for a local scout group (Y-Tribes) that a lot of their school friends do and I know the leader dads who I had been playing email tag with but ran into. I can never move them from here as this is too good of a set-up for them.
> 
> Soccer starts Wednesday. Picture Day is Wednesday. Sneaked the Focalin in my one son's yogurt the first day but he caught something "off" the second day so I sneaked it into a cinnamon roll but around noon yesterday. As a result, he was up until 11:30 last night. ALso, I came clean with him on the medication as the sneaking this into his food seemed "sneaky" and kind of like "Flowers in the Attic" where the mom poisons her kids with arsenic sprinkled over powdered donuts. I felt being upfront will allow him to be empowered to work with me and the doctor to help with these issues. Today went very smoothly so I'm cautiously optimistic.
> 
> Had to run the dog into the vet for some emergency treatment today for an allergic reaction that caused her to gnaw some areas that became infected. And this was after running to the grocery store for the week's groceries and going to the gym and working and getting the boys at school by 5:15 then cooking dinner.
> 
> My X complained about my travel schedule but the max I was ever out was 4 nights. We're looking at 20 days here due to flight schedules. Just send the checks, hon, I've got it covered. Oh and the hermit crabs and the hamster are still alive and kicking as well.
> 
> Date his past Friday as I mentioned. Well, if I thought I had issues...However, will do an intro to my best friends here who also have adopted children from Guatemala. Maybe they can bond.
> 
> Which leaves me thinking about the dating thing. My mutual interests tend to live in Seattle, DC, or Chicago so that doesn't help much. I'm running around too busy now to join any activities. I actually thought about asking the vet out today (no ring) but did a quick google search while the dog was being worked on and unfortunately found out she was married. So not feeling it right now but can see how I ended up with my X back in the day.
> 
> So just grinding this week out...



I also loved the flowers in the attic ref...
Sounds like your doing the best you can do and living up to 
Being that great father. Vent all you need to but try to eliminate any stress that you can. I know I've been doing the dating thing and am reevaluating it. To much stress or maybe its just me. Coffee meets at 5 and dinner with someone ekse at 6:30.. hard to keep names straight. . Lol.. who needs dates anyways.....?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> I also loved the flowers in the attic ref...
> Sounds like your doing the best you can do and living up to
> Being that great father. Vent all you need to but try to eliminate any stress that you can. I know I've been doing the dating thing and am reevaluating it. To much stress or maybe its just me. Coffee meets at 5 and dinner with someone ekse at 6:30.. hard to keep names straight. . Lol.. who needs dates anyways.....?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DYRC - for some reason you crack me up on here. I have no idea what age you are but I've noticed throughout from your comments that you always have "suitors"! You must be doing something right!

Well, work was very productive today - getting some traction which is good. Picture Day went off with only a few wardrobe changes in the morning- I have one that acted like he was going off to a firing squad! First soccer practice went well (and the getting ready went smoothly) - we know almost every kid on the team already. I had a mental blank on the deadline for open enrollment on benefits which was 8 PM EST tonight and I had to do all this after soccer practice in my office for about an hour. Boys behaved, ate, let me do my thing - no problem. Unsolicited comments from school today about how well they behaved today. No side effects on the Focalin ($60 co-pay BTW) so I'm feeling like this is definitely the right move. Boys and I went out to dinner to a "nice" restaurant last night with my parents and they both commented that DS2 (is that the nomenclature) is behaving much better but no negative effects regarding personality, etc.

So X called me today to talk about ordering school pictures. But first prefaced it with "(Law firm managing partner) took us out last night to (exclusive LA restaurant). I met Neil Patrick Harris!" Soca - "That's nice. What do you need?" So back and forth on how to order pictures online or if you can and a need to call the school to verify, etc. Then "(Schoolmate's Mom) said the boys looked really cute for pictures this morning." I said, "When did you speak to her?" "Oh I posted on my Facebook page (which I am blocked on so as not to make judgmental comments I found out a few weeks ago) how much I was missing the boys on this trip and will be seeing them in 4 days and she posted a comment that she saw you this morning bringing them to school looking so cute."

I do not get this. Posting about how much she misses the boys when she chose to vacate more than half their lives to achieve as I was informed recently "a nice life balance" and then trying to garner sympathy from the community accordingly. I must have done a very bad thing in a previous life to end up having to deal with this f**kwit...

Boys, however, have been singing a different tune. X called the other day and I missed it but I asked did they want to call back. "No, not really but I will because I don't want her to feel bad." And today, "We need to work on making our house the best in town." And with this period of extended stability plus the meds of such behavioral improvement, I'm curious to see how it goes when the rotating schedule resumes. If I see a downward trend, I may be looking at some changes on that.


----------



## angelpixie

Proof once again, that you're doing something right, Soca! :smthumbup: I hate how FB allows these WS to pretend to the world that they're wonderful people. She probably blocked you lest your comments burst that bubble she's created.  Sounds like the boys are already seeing through it all. Pretty sad when she can't even fool ones their age, lol.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> My X complained about my travel schedule


Cry me a friggin' river.

She can kiss my pasty white ass.


----------



## angelpixie

Ooooh, that's not a visual I want to have right before bedtime.


----------



## happyman64

> I do not get this. Posting about how much she misses the boys when she chose to vacate more than half their lives to achieve as I was informed recently "a nice life balance" and then trying to garner sympathy from the community accordingly. I must have done a very bad thing in a previous life to end up having to deal with this f**kwit...


Correction.

You do get it.

Your wife is a selfish f**kwit.

The reality of the situation Soca is that she does not get it.

Any of it.

And you can tell her till you are blue in the face or bang your head against the wall in frustration.

What I recommend is that you keep moving on. I think you are doing great.

I think your boys are doing great.

The key is to continue to walk in that same direction.

Stay the course.

HM


----------



## doureallycare2

Socca, I’m not sure if I’m doing something right or wrong at this point.. I’m kind of deciding I’m not ready for this dating thing... May still be too early for me.. Yes its fun but I also find it very stressful. I’m 54 (told I look a lot younger) Pics on my member page. Maybe it’s because of all the lies I was force fed during my marriage but I take everything said to me with a grain of salt. Also finding that some of these guys are not what they claim to be on the "Christian" dating site I signed up with. Also I’m not looking for a serious relationship right now and they seem to be...(what’s up with that?) One of the guys I’m seeing is 48 (8 dates so far) I’m just not feeling it’s comfortable with him and now I’m worried about hurting him (he’s already using the L word). Never been good at pulling away (hence the 35 year bad-marriage). Oh well... things could be worse right 

I know it’s hard for you to give witchy woman a wide berth as you still have young children together but somehow emotionally you have to be able to separate emotionally and psychologically from her taunts and starkiness... Eventually it should get better (I hope)...


----------



## happyman64

The L word after 8 dates. I have said the L word 8 times and my wife has been with me 28-29 years. 

That guy has it bad for you. Or maybe it's good. Idk. 

Time is the key. And patience too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

soca70 said:


> Boys behaved, ate, let me do my thing - no problem. Unsolicited comments from school today about how well they behaved today. No side effects on the Focalin ($60 co-pay BTW) so I'm feeling like this is definitely the right move. Boys and I went out to dinner to a "nice" restaurant last night with my parents and they both commented that DS2 (is that the nomenclature) is behaving much better but no negative effects regarding personality, etc.


Glad the Focalin seems to be working well for your boy. Your doc will probably ask you at your follow up appointment if you have noticed any new nervous ticks or other unusual "behavior". We didn't have any so, hopefully...


----------



## soca70

Not sure why the anger and resentment has come back this week but I'm assuming this ebbs and flows.

Pressing on...


----------



## Tron

Think about what new recipes your going to try this week. Or women.


----------



## angelpixie

Tron said:


> Think about what new women your going to try this week. Or recipes.


ftfy


----------



## Pbartender

Tron said:


> Think about what new recipes your going to try this week. On women.


ftfy


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Not sure why the anger and resentment has come back this week but I'm assuming this ebbs and flows.
> 
> Pressing on...


Glad you've decided to join me


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, you still remain my hero, your ability to deal with this shyt has become legendary. If it's any consolation to you, my anger and rsentment has NEVER ebbed, it's just continued to flow, you have done so much better. HappyMan is right, stay the course.

And DYRC, in all fairness to us out here, I think it's time for the picture of you in the V-neck sweater again. Just sayin'.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> ftfy


OK -this must be some kind of insider code because I'm clueless as to what this is!


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> OK -this must be some kind of insider code because I'm clueless as to what this is!


Fixed
That
For
You


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa, you still remain my hero, your ability to deal with this shyt has become legendary. If it's any consolation to you, my anger and rsentment has NEVER ebbed, it's just continued to flow, you have done so much better. HappyMan is right, stay the course.
> 
> .


BW - it means a lot to hear encouragement from you -man we have gone through the wringer and back!

So today, picked the boys up from school, took them to Target to buy b-day gifts for my mom as we are going to Dayton tomorrow for a little family shindig, let them pick out toys and candy for the improved behavior, actually ate a nice little meal there (the chicken tenders ain't bad), and then the ever-popular movie night with a flick about kids overcoming bullying at summer camp ("this has a nice message" - I swear they'll be writing dissertations by 2nd grade).

I think I've figured the low feelings out. One is that my life (and the kids) goes so much more smoothly with X out of town and unfortunately, the return is imminent. Plus we have a court appearance on Monday to provide depositions in the mediation between our title company and our friends at Bank of America (as that still hasn't been resolved). X is working on damage calculations with a colleague back a the office so repeated texts about interest rates, monthly payment, etc. Nice to see some motivation at the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT on something that is her area of expertise - unfortunately the motivation is getting out of the mortgage so her contribution monthly can be dropped - which I'm not looking forward to.

Another is the fast-approaching anniversary of D-Day (next weekend). The mind tapes have kicked in:

"This past year, every time you touched me I cringed."
"I don't want to live with you anymore."
"I don't want to be with you anymore."
"As far as I'm concerned, our commitment is just a piece of paper"
"My eyes have never rolled back in my head"
"You thought you and the boys were a package deal"
"I have to be free to be myself"
"I will only go to MC to help you deal with this"
"You were a safe place at the time"
"This hasn't worked out the way I thought it would"
"You really blew it"
And the list goes on...

However, on the bright side, my ability to function on a daily basis has improved exponentially and I do feel good about trying to gain some kind of positive self-awareness/introspection. I've been trying not to be bitter and angry as that's not healthy but it's a struggle. Especially with the "victim" act X is putting on. And as HM indicated, there's no changing that perception. And for co-parenting sake I have to try to get along. However, with these statements, X is STILL surprised why I'm just not a bundle of joy in my dealings with her - "I can barely look at you the way you act now". Really, it's almost a visceral involuntary reaction - I physically cannot keep the disdain off my face.

Legendary is an overstatement. I read these other threads (Stella's, BF Guru's, etc) and those X's suck in ways I cannot imagine. At least mine hasn't hightailed it out the door in regards to monetary support and parenting responsibility so that has to be counted as a positive. And I really think my X does want to be a good parent (but not full-time). However, just writing that gets my goat.

Well, everybody have a good weekend and we'll get there eventually.


----------



## happyman64

> "This past year, every time you touched me I cringed."
> "I don't want to live with you anymore."
> "I don't want to be with you anymore."
> "As far as I'm concerned, our commitment is just a piece of paper"
> "My eyes have never rolled back in my head"
> "You thought you and the boys were a package deal"
> "I have to be free to be myself"
> "I will only go to MC to help you deal with this"
> "You were a safe place at the time"
> "This hasn't worked out the way I thought it would"
> "You really blew it"
> And the list goes on...
> 
> "I can barely look at you the way you act now".


I just have to comment Soca.

I am sure that list of her quotes have come right out f your head. They are so hurtful to you, you have replayed them over and over in your head a million times that you have them all memorized.

Am I right?

You need to step back. A lot from your marriage.

Because if you look at everyone of her quotes, you will realize she s saying that to hurt you. To push you away from her.

I have always said your wife is selfish.

But in addition to that you will see that she is incapable of being happy, let alone finding happiness.

Why is she unhappy because you act happy and cheerful during this crappy period of your lives?

Because in the back of her mind she knows she is putting all her chips on the table in her illusive pursuit of the "one".

Guess what? He does not exist.
No one is that perfect.......

And yes, she is a good mom. When she wants to be. And of course you and the boys are not a package deal. Just look at her family as well as her inability to conceive and that is quite obvious.

Your STBX is missing so many emotional qualities on so many levels that happiness with her would be impossible at this time and most likely ever.

So I know you are feeling up and down.

I urge you t o stop thinking of her one liners. They have no bearing on you. The woman is damaged.

And you cannot fix her. Neither can your children.

I always say the best revenge is to live a happy, fulfilling life. You will have no problem achieving this goal.

Because your Ex will never be happy.

Keep being you Soca. 

HM


----------



## Conrad

In other words, she wants to cake eat.

Shocking

She continues to show you who and what she is.

A petulant child.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCA -

By legendary I didn't so much mean that your X was as inherently evil as some, I meant your stoicism and sense of wanting to do the right thing. You have done MUCH better in that regard. Keep it up.

When I read your laundry list of mind-tape statements from your X, I thought Frostine had sent them - I've heard the exact same list, verbatim. Only thing I can add that frostine said was that she faked orgasms for the last 6 months (how sweet) and that she hopes I die in Afghanistan.


----------



## just got it 55

SOCA I cannot relate to your pain. I was on the other end. My wife is nearly perfect partner in fact perfect human I don’t put her on a pedestal.

But…… 20 plus years ago I made colossal mistakes & choices in our marriage. I had no clue why I went that direction.

I can only tell you that in time it came to me with absolute clarity. My wife possesses an enormous capacity for forgiveness. I spend and dedicate each and every day of our lives to re assure her that she was never responsible in any way for my actions.

The point is one day your STBXW will come to some realizations of her own. Let time move on it will run its course. You will get closure knowing you were a good husband and provider with or without her acknowledging her realizations.


----------



## soca70

So interesting day. Spent five hours in court negotiating a settlement on our title issue with 5 lawyers from various entities (this is HM's worst nightmare!). Interesting from the perspective that X and I were working together on this and having to agree to acceptable terms on "our side". Upshot is that the title insurance carrier reached an agreement with Bank of America and now our property is free and clear plus we are receiving a small monetary amount in damages.

X was in the element today as this is her area of expertise. Our lawyer took us to lunch and they talked "shop" for an hour and a half. Funny (sad?) I could contribute as I could comment on most of the cases. Also, lots of "Soca, do you remember when we went to that trial lawyers' convention in San Francisco?" Actually, I was finding the whole day somewhat bittersweet as we always could do these kind of things successfully. Afterwards, X wanted to go for coffee so we did (we drove together for this). So now next step is I have to refinance the house in my name only which also means the end of my monthly contribution from X. More talk about the Ohio bar exam, etc and really I don't know how (or even if) that's going to be pulled off.

Finished up a bit of work and then took the boys to the first scout meeting this evening. They had a great time and were very enthusiastic especially after hearing that they can shoot BB guns at the upcoming camp.

I called X later tonight (no 2X4s please!) to make sure everything was OK as I thought she looked somewhat haggard and tired today. Apparently, just the jet lag and the work stress as the workload is starting to increase again. Old Soca's not a heartless SOB as some may think!


----------



## happyman64

just got it 55 said:


> SOCA I cannot relate to your pain. I was on the other end. My wife is nearly perfect partner in fact perfect human I don’t put her on a pedestal.
> 
> But…… 20 plus years ago I made colossal mistakes & choices in our marriage. I had no clue why I went that direction.
> 
> I can only tell you that in time it came to me with absolute clarity. My wife possesses an enormous capacity for forgiveness. I spend and dedicate each and every day of our lives to re assure her that she was never responsible in any way for my actions.
> 
> The point is one day your STBXW will come to some realizations of her own. Let time move on it will run its course. You will get closure knowing you were a good husband and provider with or without her acknowledging her realizations.


She will never acknowledge her realizations.

Not just because she is selfish, lost or unable to create happiness.

But because she is a lawyer.

They get paid to render decisions on someone else while absolved of any guilt or wrongdoing......

Think about it.

I know many attorneys that lied or "handled" transactions that would pass a lie detector.

Some would say those are great attorneys. I would say they are "great" if they are working for you.

So Soca glad your settlement worked out for you. I am in the process of suing BOA regarding my mortgage.

You just let her keep talking shop while life continues to pass her by.

And as always you have proven to be a class act towards the Ex.....

HM


----------



## Bullwinkle

As always, SoCA, I agree with HappyMan.

You are indeed a class act. I'd have probably choked her when I had her alone in the car, leave her in a dumpster behind CVS.


----------



## tom67

Bullwinkle said:


> As always, SoCA, I agree with HappyMan.
> 
> You are indeed a class act. I'd have probably choked her when I had her alone in the car, leave her in a dumpster behind CVS.


Now now BW :nono:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Alright, alright, I'm not advocating murder. But we can all dream......


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> I called X later tonight (no 2X4s please!) to make sure everything was OK as I thought she looked somewhat haggard and tired today. Apparently, just the jet lag and the work stress as the workload is starting to increase again. Old Soca's not a heartless SOB as some may think!


No comment


----------



## just got it 55

Bullwinkle said:


> Alright, alright, I'm not advocating murder. But we can all dream......


Maybe SOCA's wife is undercover Taliban


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> No comment


Uh Soca she fired you don't forget that if you're worried about the kids regarding her that is a horse of a different color.


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> So now next step is I have to refinance the house in my name only which also means the end of my monthly contribution from X.


If you already have a decent rate on the house, check with your mortgage lender to see if they allow for mortgage assumptions... It'd be faster, easier and cheaper for you than refinancing.


----------



## soca70

Pbartender said:


> If you already have a decent rate on the house, check with your mortgage lender to see if they allow for mortgage assumptions... It'd be faster, easier and cheaper for you than refinancing.


This is a good idea. I'm on a 5/1 ARM at 3.625. Would like to get a 10/1 ARM though at a similar rate which would take the boys through school and then I'm outta here to sunnier climes.

Oh yes. Checking on X -out of the goodness of my heart and the opportunity to show concern while making the observation of how bad she looked. Maybe I'm just a quasi-heartless SOB!

Boys are leaving tomorrow for the next few days to the X's. My one boy tonight, "Are you bored when we're not here?" I felt like saying, "Bored? Never! I have TAM!" - ha!

Some good news w the Focalin - today was the best behaved he's been in since I do not know when. And seems much happier and less angst-ridden. Top marks from school in classroom behavior on the assessment that was sent home this week. If I see a downward trend this week...


----------



## Bullwinkle

soCa, I believe few things in this life can compare with seeing the X and she looks bad; haggard, depressed, whatever.

The last time I saw Frostine her azz looked HUGE, for me this was better than finding money in an old jacket or a pitcher of Bloody Marys on a Sunday morning.

BW


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> soCa, I believe few things in this life can compare with seeing the X and she looks bad; haggard, depressed, whatever.
> 
> The last time I saw Frostine her azz looked HUGE, for me this was better than finding money in an old jacket or a pitcher of Bloody Marys on a Sunday morning.
> 
> BW


Well what do you expect, she has been thinking out of her @ss for far too long.

You know she has not been using her brain!!


----------



## just got it 55

Bullwinkle said:


> soCa, I believe few things in this life can compare with seeing the X and she looks bad; haggard, depressed, whatever.
> 
> The last time I saw Frostine her azz looked HUGE, for me this was better than finding money in an old jacket or a pitcher of Bloody Marys on a Sunday morning.
> 
> BW


BW you're a funny fvck


----------



## soca70

just got it 55 said:


> BW you're a funny fvck


Got to hand it to him -dodging bullets and keeping us entertained here on TAM. Next month, the Poconos..."I just flew in from Kandahar and boy, my arms are tired!"

So anyway, first contract in at work today. Got major proposals out to clients in Los Angeles. Momentum building...

X comes over to get the boys' "stuff" and the animal menagerie. I suggested running to Petco before the boys got out of school as our hermit crab friends didn't seem to last through their visit to Chez Soca. 

Ended up in a heated conversation regarding my conservative, judgmental view and mind set that X is an inferior parent and someone was tired of appeasing me plus the fact that her life was difficult with 2 kids at home, working full-time, husband out for work and made unbearable by him not being a "loving and supportive" partner with no "connection". Well, well. As I stated back, that when I returned from long business trips that I didn't encounter said "loving and supportive" partner either. This was fueled not by the demise of the crustaceans but my raising concerns about DS2's staying on an upward behavioral tract now that X has returned and will be rotating again. 

So more of the same rehash. Plus "Soca, I am getting a life now that I enjoy and I suggest you start getting out as well -and I don't mean with your parents. And having to make friends since I'm pretty much cut off from your family" Which is funny because yesterday I was thinking I pretty much just enjoy my family and kids and that's about it at this point. However, I did counter with "Well, I'm glad short-changing the kids and our family has led to your enjoyment of life which seems to revolve now around Sunday brunches with the "girls" -who I'm doubting have children."

OK so how many "rules" broken on this? However, like all of our arguments, it simmered down to begrudging cooperation and the gear out the door.

Anyway, went to the gym, scheduled a lunch tomorrow with a good friend (getting out there!), went to the "trendy" mall in town and bought some new clothes and had dinner in the food court.

At home, XGF in San Diego called. I had let her know this past weekend I may be in town in the next couple of weeks earlier and she said to stay the weekend and she'd come up to her condo in Santa Monica and we could spend the weekend together. Tonight, we were just venting a bit. The current relationship has as "always" lasted too long but she doesn't have the time or care enough to end it. As crazy as it sounds, we still have the best connection going.


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> Got to hand it to him -dodging bullets and keeping us entertained here on TAM. Next month, the Poconos..."I just flew in from Kandahar and boy, my arms are tired!"
> 
> So anyway, first contract in at work today. Got major proposals out to clients in Los Angeles. Momentum building...
> 
> X comes over to get the boys' "stuff" and the animal menagerie. I suggested running to Petco before the boys got out of school as our hermit crab friends didn't seem to last through their visit to Chez Soca.
> 
> Ended up in a heated conversation regarding my conservative, judgmental view and mind set that X is an inferior parent and someone was tired of appeasing me plus the fact that her life was difficult with 2 kids at home, working full-time, husband out for work and made unbearable by him not being a "loving and supportive" partner with no "connection". Well, well. As I stated back, that when I returned from long business trips that I didn't encounter said "loving and supportive" partner either. This was fueled not by the demise of the crustaceans but my raising concerns about DS2's staying on an upward behavioral tract now that X has returned and will be rotating again.
> 
> So more of the same rehash. Plus "Soca, I am getting a life now that I enjoy and I suggest you start getting out as well -and I don't mean with your parents. And having to make friends since I'm pretty much cut off from your family" Which is funny because yesterday I was thinking I pretty much just enjoy my family and kids and that's about it at this point. However, I did counter with "Well, I'm glad short-changing the kids and our family has led to your enjoyment of life which seems to revolve now around Sunday brunches with the "girls" -who I'm doubting have children."
> 
> OK so how many "rules" broken on this? However, like all of our arguments, it simmered down to begrudging cooperation and the gear out the door.
> 
> Anyway, went to the gym, scheduled a lunch tomorrow with a good friend (getting out there!), went to the "trendy" mall in town and bought some new clothes and had dinner in the food court.
> 
> At home, XGF in San Diego called. I had let her know this past weekend I may be in town in the next couple of weeks earlier and she said to stay the weekend and she'd come up to her condo in Santa Monica and we could spend the weekend together. Tonight, we were just venting a bit. The current relationship has as "always" lasted too long but she doesn't have the time or care enough to end it. As crazy as it sounds, we still have the best connection going.


Eh I had no problem with what you said.


----------



## happyman64

You could always try this Soca:

"Frankly Scarlet I don't give a fvck"

or

"Oh Honey I am so glad you are happy, now shut the fvck up and coparent!"


HM


----------



## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> You could always try this Soca:
> 
> "Frankly Scarlet I don't give a fvck"
> 
> or
> 
> "Oh Honey I am so glad you are happy, now shut the fvck up and coparent!"
> HM


Perfect HM


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Ended up in a heated conversation regarding my conservative, judgmental view and mind set that X is an inferior parent and someone was tired of appeasing me plus the fact that her life was difficult with 2 kids at home, working full-time, husband out for work and made unbearable by him not being a "loving and supportive" partner with no "connection". Well, well. As I stated back, that when I returned from long business trips that I didn't encounter said "loving and supportive" partner either.


For God's sake:


----------



## Pam

Is that a few more boards than usual?


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> For God's sake:


The "S" is for Soca.


----------



## soca70

Nothing says "You suck" like your own personalized 2X4s! I was thinking about continuing that little conversation today but thought again to just drop it. 

For some reason, I've become more fixated on what X is doing lately. Maybe because this is D-Day weekend anniversary. Last year Friday, dropped off the boys at a school event, went to dinner, and had (as it was revealed later) great sex (but just on my end). Sunday, after a bit of shopping for mums and a pre-Halloween event at the local garden center, Soca gets the axe.

So here on this Friday night and the first weekend without the kids in a long time. Miscalculated a bit thinking I would have a possible date on Saturday but it's now next Wednesday. So much for planning ahead...

Which has left me with a WIDE open weekend. Working out tomorrow and maybe checking out this large outdoor art fair/exhibit downtown if it doesn't rain. Sunday, planning on going to church and the boys have their first soccer game on Sunday afternoon and then they are back with me.

Kind of enjoying the downtime but don't want to make this solo time happen too often - my mind tends to start fixating on things.


----------



## angelpixie

Focus on how great you're doing at just a year out. So much has been taken care of in the last year, you should really be proud of all you've done -- not just on moving towards your D, but also changing jobs, getting back into dating, and especially, how well you're doing becoming a single dad. And let's not forget the cooking classes! :smthumbup: Sure, you're going to hit some bad times like you did this week. It happens to all of us. As long as it's just a hiccup, I don't think you should flagellate your self over it. 

Distract yourself so that you don't end up ruminating. Focus on future plans, to take you out of thinking what's going on now -- too much possibility of it triggering those memories.

All in all, I think you're doing great, Soca. Glad to hear that the med is working so well with your DS, too.


----------



## happyman64

"For Gods Sake"

I think Conrad was just saying a prayer for you.

And enjoy the down time.

Because when your boys are older and even more active you will have no time for yourself whatsoever.

Stop thinking of her. I know, not easy.

But every time you think of her you realize what an idiot she is and all you do is upset yourself.

Hence the continued pissed off circle of emotions that you put yourself through.

Focus on you Soca.

That is the key to your success...... 

HM


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> "
> But every time you think of her you realize what an idiot she is and all you do is upset yourself.
> 
> Hence the continued pissed off circle of emotions that you put yourself through.
> 
> Focus on you Soca.
> 
> That is the key to your success......
> 
> HM


Yes, yes - a thousand times, yes. This is what I have been doing the last two weeks where I had not been for some time. Need to reorient the focus again.


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

When you take the bait and enter the Drama Triangle with this self-absorbed pos of an X, what are you trying to accomplish?

Do you expect her to empathize with the raw deal you got?

SHE CAUSED IT. She will likely NEVER admit any sort of guilt and/or acknowledge one bit of your pain.

And, the above conversation is you trying to reason with a clearly unreasonable defensive person.

When she starts in on you (and she will, none of what she's feeling can possibly be her fault...), practice what you've learned:

"I don't like where this conversation is headed"

"I'm sorry you feel that way"

"I'm not ok with this"

You'll stop her dead in her tracks.

Then you can come back here and accept platitudes and hearty congratulations, instead of 2x4's.


----------



## angelpixie

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> When you take the bait and enter the Drama Triangle with this self-absorbed pos of an X, what are you trying to accomplish?
> 
> Do you expect her to empathize with the raw deal you got?
> 
> SHE CAUSED IT. She will likely NEVER admit any sort of guilt and/or acknowledge one bit of your pain.
> 
> And, the above conversation is you trying to reason with a clearly unreasonable defensive person.
> 
> When she starts in on you (and she will, none of what she's feeling can possibly be her fault...), practice what you've learned:
> 
> "I don't like where this conversation is headed"
> 
> "I'm sorry you feel that way"
> 
> "I'm not ok with this"
> 
> You'll stop her dead in her tracks.
> 
> Then you can come back here and accept platitudes and hearty congratulations, instead of 2x4's.



Eventually, Soca, you'll see that engaging her at all is a total waste of time. Even now, when Chinless is a self-absorbed piece of sh!t (Gee, tell us how you really feel, Angel!), I only call him out on things that are unemotional, like his recent failure to tell me he was picking DS up from school on my day. He just dropped DS off 90 minutes later than the time he texted me this morning, throwing off plans I had. Piecing together information that DS gave me, I have gathered it was because he was having too much fun in bed with the Trampire. To bring it up now would undoubtedly lead to a fight, and him feeling smug that he has someone and I don't, not him realizing he was rude (again) and disrespectful to me (still). I will file this away and use it as a bargaining chip when I need a schedule modification from him. When there is something egregious, like the school thing, I let him know via email. I got an apology yesterday, but today he was back to old tricks. 

We will never convince them of who we know them to be. They have their own self-image that they have to cling to, Soca. We just need to always keep in mind that we see the real them, and to deal with their disordered personalities the best we can, in a way that best preserves our sanity. 

It might have felt good in the past to blow off steam at him, but it no longer feels that way. I just want to go on with my life now.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> When you take the bait and enter the Drama Triangle with this self-absorbed pos of an X, what are you trying to accomplish?
> 
> Do you expect her to empathize with the raw deal you got?
> 
> SHE CAUSED IT. She will likely NEVER admit any sort of guilt and/or acknowledge one bit of your pain.


In fact, if anything, she thinks you *DESERVE* it.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> In fact, if anything, she thinks you *DESERVE* it.


THIS...

She's an emotional vampire.

And, she justifies her hostility through your reactions. It's the jet fuel that powers her selfish boat.


----------



## doureallycare2

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doureallycare2

I agree a 100 percent with Conrad. Nough said.. take care soca...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

Pbartender said:


> In fact, if anything, she thinks you *DESERVE* it.


Very perceptive, PB. In that exchange we had, X says "And this is all because of you!"

What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

I have to agree with AP with the best course of action. Observe but do not engage emotionally.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SOca, believe me, I understand how hard it is to detach emtionally.

The only good thing about being here in the Stan is I have virtually NO contact with Frostine. My vivd imagination aside, I can't begin to tell you how much it has helped me to be away from her and the craziness. What I could not deal with was her concept of us becoming "friends" and having coffee together and discussing D3, etc.

This kind of thing is way too civilized for me and I realized that. If I tried to be like that I know I would have eventually gone to jail.


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> SOca, believe me, I understand how hard it is to detach emtionally.
> 
> The only good thing about being here in the Stan is I have virtually NO contact with Frostine. My vivd imagination aside, I can't begin to tell you how much it has helped me to be away from her and the craziness. What I could not deal with was her concept of us becoming "friends" and having coffee together and discussing D3, etc.
> 
> This kind of thing is way too civilized for me and I realized that. If I tried to be like that I know I would have eventually gone to jail.


Yes, out of sight, out of mind. Which is what I think screws with me with the two weeks in LA and then back.

Good news is I'm feeling emotionally back somewhat on keel. Very busy with multiple work webinar presentations, boys activities, etc. Took them on a "Fall" decorating trip after school to pick up pumpkins, an assortment of gourds, mums, and a few Halloween knick-knacks for the front porch. I had planned on "Kids Eat Free" night at Bob Evans but one boy nixed that and I served (God help me) waffles and corn dogs instead. Baths, reading, bed.  

Tomorrow gym in the morning (trainer did an stats update - now I am 3 pounds more than D-day - my weight swung last year from 206 in January to 179 on D-day to 164 right after Christmas and now 182). Schedule of heavy cardio to get to 175 which is where I want to be.

Behavioral therapist appointment tomorrow also (w X) to discuss formal evaluation for ADHD. I think this is working well. X sees some improvement but not much (hmmm...wonder why?).

Then dinner tomorrow night with Bogota. We'll keep the fingers crossed for that one!


----------



## soca70

And the good news is when someone tells you that their ex-spouse hired a private investigator to gather evidence on them for 4 months and then confronted them and demanded a divorce, I have learned from TAM to smile and say "Nice to meet you" and run for the car...


----------



## Bullwinkle

LOL, SoCA, yes, run for the hills!

I was talking to an Afghan pilot today and I told him about Frostine, my pending divorce, etc. He was quiet for a minute ahd then looked at me ans said, shoot her. No judge in Kabul will convict you after that story.


----------



## tom67

Bullwinkle said:


> LOL, SoCA, yes, run for the hills!
> 
> I was talking to an Afghan pilot today and I told him about Frostine, my pending divorce, etc. He was quiet for a minute ahd then looked at me ans said, shoot her. No judge in Kabul will convict you after that story.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> And the good news is when someone tells you that their ex-spouse hired a private investigator to gather evidence on them for 4 months and then confronted them and demanded a divorce, I have learned from TAM to smile and say "Nice to meet you" and run for the car...


This was Miss Bogota's story? Hmmm. If so, your Date Radar might need a little adjustment, sweetie.


----------



## soca70

You know it sounds like how could I be so off? However, in terms of stats: Director of Finance overseeing Caribbean and Latin America business ops for a Fortune 500 company, Wharton School of Business graduate, etc - what's not to like? However, it seems like South American culture may have different views on fidelity...Beautiful new 5 series BMW, however 

On the way back, I called XGF in San Diego and laughed about this...


----------



## Syco

Conrad said:


> She's an emotional vampire.
> 
> And, she justifies her hostility through your reactions. It's the jet fuel that powers her selfish boat.


:iagree:


----------



## Pbartender

soca70 said:


> You know it sounds like how could I be so off? However, in terms of stats: Director of Finance overseeing Caribbean and Latin America business ops for a Fortune 500 company, Wharton School of Business graduate, etc - what's not to like? However, it seems like South American culture may have different views on fidelity...Beautiful new 5 series BMW, however


Success is no guarantee of sanity.


----------



## angelpixie

Pbartender said:


> Success is no guarantee of sanity.



That's cross-stitch worthy.


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> You know it sounds like how could I be so off? However, in terms of stats: Director of Finance overseeing Caribbean and Latin America business ops for a Fortune 500 company, Wharton School of Business graduate, etc - what's not to like? However, it seems like South American culture may have different views on fidelity...Beautiful new 5 series BMW, however
> 
> On the way back, I called XGF in San Diego and laughed about this...


Looks so good on the outside but so broken on the inside.

Damn, Wharton graduate. 

You are right about the S. American culture though. 

Glad you could laugh about it.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa -

I knoe everyone on TAM, with the exception of GutPunch, will disagree with me on this, but a Wharton graduate, great executive job in Fortune 500 company, etc., etc. - these are good stats? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU don't WANT!!!! This was Frostine, except she was London School of Economics.

I have learned my lesson - my next dating pool will start at Denny's, I want a bleached-blond high school graduate with a drinking problem.


----------



## tom67

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa -
> 
> I knoe everyone on TAM, with the exception of GutPunch, will disagree with me on this, but a Wharton graduate, great executive job in Fortune 500 company, etc., etc. - these are good stats? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU don't WANT!!!! This was Frostine, except she was London School of Economics.
> 
> I have learned my lesson - my next dating pool will start at Denny's, I want a bleached-blond high school graduate with a drinking problem.


And don't forget the tramp stamp gotta have that.:smthumbup:


----------



## Ceegee

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa -
> 
> I knoe everyone on TAM, with the exception of GutPunch, will disagree with me on this, but a Wharton graduate, great executive job in Fortune 500 company, etc., etc. - these are good stats? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU don't WANT!!!! This was Frostine, except she was London School of Economics.
> 
> I have learned my lesson - my next dating pool will start at Denny's, I want a bleached-blond high school graduate with a drinking problem.


One extreme to the other. 

Worked for a Clooney didn't it?

Would that be a recent high school graduate BW?


----------



## Bullwinkle

CeeGee, no, not a recent graduate, but one who never really was interested in an MBA or astro-physics. Maybe a c-o-c-ktail waitress or a hairdresser, someone who comes home from work on time and doesn't eat lunch with other womens' husbands and the only men that ever call the house are gay.


----------



## just got it 55

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa -
> 
> I knoe everyone on TAM, with the exception of GutPunch, will disagree with me on this, but a Wharton graduate, great executive job in Fortune 500 company, etc., etc. - these are good stats? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU don't WANT!!!! This was Frostine, except she was London School of Economics.
> 
> I have learned my lesson - my next dating pool will start at Denny's, I want a bleached-blond high school graduate with a drinking problem.


BW Again with some funny SH!T:smthumbup:

We all need a measure of levity but you are down right stupid funny

This helps us all keep our sanity


----------



## Bullwinkle

Thanks, 55, you know the drill, laugh or cry. 

I love SoCa like a brother now and I want to see him find a good woman. But this whole on-line dating thing where you read about degrees and high-paying jobs, it makes me want to weep. 

What everyone seems to lose sight of is the fact that the best place to meet women has always been, and always will be, a bar, like God intended it. Alcohol, bad music, Old White Guy dancing.


----------



## angelpixie

Bullwinkle said:


> What everyone seems to lose sight of is the fact that the best place to meet women has always been, and always will be, a bar, like God intended it. *Alcohol, bad music, Old White Guy dancing.*


What woman wouldn't go for that? Sounds positively _dreamy_.


----------



## happyman64

Bullwinkle said:


> Thanks, 55, you know the drill, laugh or cry.
> 
> I love SoCa like a brother now and I want to see him find a good woman. But this whole on-line dating thing where you read about degrees and high-paying jobs, it makes me want to weep.
> 
> What everyone seems to lose sight of is the fact that the best place to meet women has always been, and always will be, a bar, like God intended it. Alcohol, bad music, Old White Guy dancing.


Your only problem with that fantasy is the old guy is dancing kinda funny.

He is dancing funny becuase he drank too much booze with the german pilots, spent way too many nights around those horny afghans and got blown out of the port-a-john's from too many rocket attacks... 

Then again that is a pretty good reason to be dancing funny.... 

HM


----------



## soca70

I have white guy dancing caught on video at my sister's wedding reception from last year. Less than a month later, I get the axe. Coincidence? I think not...

So boys and I are going tomorrow to their overnight scout camp. I'd like to say that I'm looking forward to it but frankly I'm not. X came over today with "our" sleeping bags. Funny how she had grown up camping all the time and was actually pretty organized with this kind of stuff. I tend to see if there is a concierge desk somewhere...Once I'm there I'm sure it will be fine.

Bogota pings me and would like to get together again. Just read part of CTS's Infidelity thread. Really quite amazing some of these people. Bogota - "My X won't come in the house unless it's for money to pay a bill. What do you think of that, Soca?" I said, "I wouldn't either. What do you expect?" And then "Here's BW's PM email address. Ask for Frostine's contact info and you two can commiserate on how your men did you so wrong."  Really that was the tip of the iceberg of the little gems that came out. Something about "The Africans now in Miami" and "The Mexicans in Los Angeles" and "Really, only the Venezuelans are comparable to the Colombians". I'm reading now "Back to Blood" by Tom Wolfe (Of "Bonfire of the Vanities") and it describes the social caste of Miami culture with Cubans, Anglos, Haitians, etc. In a disturbingly fascinating way, I was getting a "real-time" commentary. However, I think I will pass on getting together again.

So booked a business trip to Los Angeles for Wed and will stay the weekend. Planning on spending weekend with friends and XGF from San Diego. Looking forward to that.

Have a good weekend, everybody!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, SoCa, Bogata sounds like a real piece of work. But you're a better man than me, I'd have probably gotten drunk and ended up at the EconoLodge, then taking The Walk of Shame out to the car the next morning.

Have a great time in LA, amigo.

BW


----------



## soca70

Checking in - 

Scout camping trip went fairly well - my one son was nervous and insecure with the surroundings and all the people (even though he knew most) so was a bit high-strung and took out his anxieties on me (at least in private - so that was I'm taking that as a plus). However, overall we had a good time but I felt like I needed a Xanax by Sunday morning. 

Then followed by soccer game Sunday afternoon that my sister, niece, parents went to. Boys did great. My high-strung one is by far one of the best - really encouraging him at this so he can feel successful and some achievement. X came as well to watch. Won't go into annoying details but I have realized I have not moved entirely past the anger and resentment and may need to go back to the IC.

As I was writing this, XGF in San Diego called and we are having dinner Friday night in SD and planning something for Saturday afternoon/evening. 

Boys did well today (a little rowdy tonight) and after school we played outside for awhile, then dinner, then Alaska State Troopers, then reading, and bed.

Plugging away...


----------



## Bullwinkle

One day at a time, SoCA. All you can do, amigo.

Have a great time out in Cali. 

BW


----------



## GutPunch

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa -
> 
> I knoe everyone on TAM, with the exception of GutPunch, will disagree with me on this, but a Wharton graduate, great executive job in Fortune 500 company, etc., etc. - these are good stats? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU don't WANT!!!! This was Frostine, except she was London School of Economics.
> 
> I have learned my lesson - my next dating pool will start at Denny's, I want a bleached-blond high school graduate with a drinking problem.


I'm partial to the Waffle House waitress.

As far as the old white guy dancing that was my uncle and he didn't give a shyt. I lost him last year. He would always hug Ms. GP way too long at family events or any female for that matter. I miss him.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Ha! Agreed! the Waffle House! That's where men should be looking for women. Forget these stupid dating sites, go get the blueberry waffles with grits and a side of sausage, leave the waitress a huge tip. Be polite, look like you have a little money, that's basically it.


----------



## GutPunch

Bullwinkle said:


> Ha! Agreed! the Waffle House! That's where men should be looking for women. Forget these stupid dating sites, go get the blueberry waffles with grits and a side of sausage, leave the waitress a huge tip. Be polite, look like you have a little money, that's basically it.


....or if you're really struggling offer to go get her a pack of smokes while she's working.


----------



## Ms. GP

GutPunch said:


> I'm partial to the Waffle House waitress.
> 
> As far as the old white guy dancing that was my uncle and he didn't give a shyt. I lost him last year. He would always hug Ms. GP way too long at family events or any female for that matter. I miss him.


Hey GP. Remember the time he tried to kiss me on the neck, and you said, "alright dude, stop creeping out my wife."?

Classic GP. Right to the point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

No Waffle House in Stockholm. But there is chic cafe called Gomorrah

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Ceegee

LongWalk said:


> No Waffle House in Stockholm. But there is chic cafe called Gomorrah
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


I like the sound of that.


----------



## Ms. GP

Ceegee said:


> I like the sound of that.


You do? It sounds like an std to me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I thought Gomorrah was what you bring home after your date with the waffle house waitress!!


----------



## soca70

Ms. GP said:


> You do? It sounds like an std to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> I thought Gomorrah was what you bring home after your date with the waffle house waitress!!


OK - this has degenerated. But I had a fraternity brother who picked up genital warts from a woman named Blondie who worked at a BYOB strip club called Sunny T's outside of Waco, TX. I think we've veered from one extreme to another here...


----------



## angelpixie

Soca -- you mentioned in the Singles of TAM thread that I hadn't updated you on your thread about my social forays, so you weren't aware I'd started dating. Rather than add to the tarnishing of your fine thread, lol, I'll just keep my updates in the Singles thread.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> OK - this has degenerated. But I had a fraternity brother who picked up genital warts from a woman named Blondie who worked at a BYOB strip club called Sunny T's outside of Waco, TX. I think we've veered from one extreme to another here...


Blondie has warts?

Oh crap!


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, I have always liked your thread very much but it is when it occasionally degenerates that I truly love it.

BW


----------



## soca70

Well back from California...

Interesting time. Wednesday morning and early afternoon I chaperoned a school field trip for apple picking and pumpkin hunting out in the country outside of Columbus and then that evening was ensconced in my trendy Beverly Hills hotel off of Rodeo Drive. When worlds collide...

Work-wise, a very necessary trip with good meetings for this multi-property deal I'm working. 

Hooked up with one of my close friends and ex-personal trainer to work out at my old gym. Really this guy just is a "light" in my life. We have such a great time together and it was good to see him (last saw him and his wife a year and a half ago). Then dinner with another close "old" friend in Hollywood Thursday night. 

Friday, a funny thing happened, when I stopped by an old "haunt" for lunch. A few years ago, I met this very attractive younger woman who was visiting our church but never so again there. And then about 3 years ago I ran into her on a plane to Chicago and we ended up sitting together. (I admit I had a bit of a crush) Then a few months ago I had seen on FB that she had relocated to LA a couple of years ago for a new company. And as I'm sitting in this restaurant, she walks in and we end up having lunch together with her boss. So weird and coincidental. Tells me the LA thing is temporary and hopes to move back to Ohio. We exchanged cards, etc. If she gets back to Ohio, she's getting a call...

And then zipped down to San Diego and had dinner with XGF. It was really good to get together and just talk to someone who KNOWS me. We also ended up getting together Saturday morning as well for breakfast as I had changed my flight to get back earlier to see the boys as I now have another trip to NYC on Tue. Also I moved this flight as I realized the saying "You can't go home again" has some truth to it. If I tried to get something going, it would be because of a hanging on to the familiarity and comfort of the past. But any relationship we would have would not be what either of us need right now. I'm not moving there and she's not moving here. I didn't voice any of this but it's "unsaid" I guess between us and trying to "go there" would just be complicated and awkward. So things are status quo and our friendship remains intact.

Of course, right after breakfast, I scrape the he!! out of the rental car in the parking garage leaving the hotel...

It was good to be back in LA though. I really love it and miss it. It warmed my heart to see the local transvestite homeless "gal" adjusting her look in a reflective store window and then sashaying back down the sidewalk. God love her - she's still hanging on after all these years...

Today, lunch with my parents and then the X drops the boys over. God love her too - asks, "Did you get a chance to see my parents? Ha! Ha!" And brings over an apple pie she made with the apples from the boys' field trip. Of course, I'm trying to shake a few pounds to get back to goal weight...

Anyway, hope everyone is doing well!


----------



## happyman64

> "Did you get a chance to see my parents? Ha! Ha!"


I am sure this was top priority on your list of todo's while on the west coast.

Maybe you should add "delusional" to the list of qualities for your Ex.....


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> I am sure this was top priority on your list of todo's while on the west coast.
> 
> Maybe you should add "delusional" to the list of qualities for your Ex.....


That was a totally sarcastic comment BTW!


----------



## happyman64

soca70 said:


> That was a totally sarcastic comment BTW!


I figured that.

Keep being you.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, where the hell are you, amigo? Hope you're alright.


BW


----------



## soca70

Hey BW! Thanks for checking on me!

Everything's going OK. In NYC last week for meetings accompanied by my favorite Canadian product manager. Really a total package there. Of course, married (i'm assuming happily - didn't get into that )

I was having a late breakfast at the Marriott on Lexington Thursday and happened to overhear the conversation going on between the guy at the next table and this woman and her small daughter one table over from that. Along the lines of "well there's no infidelity, but I want to be with someone who wants to be with me. Enjoying talking, doing things, etc etc" It was like a thread come to life!  This went on for about 20 minutes about the impending divorce, Meyers Briggs, life coach...When this guy got up I said to him "There's a website you might be interested in..." Is there a referral fee for TAM? Should ask the moderator. 

ALso happened to run into my old boss and colleagues (who are now at another competitive company) We all went out to dinner Thur night and had a great time. If this job doesn't pan out, there's one waiting and the annual sales meeting is in Barcelona.

Anyway, waiting for my kids to be dropped home from a birthday party in about 10 minutes. Beautiful weather here. Mowed the grass, ran 2 miles at the gym (how am I above D-day weight?). My little match.com conversations are keeping me entertained. No drama really. I feel like I'm almost running out of things to say at this point.

Hope you are doing well and avoiding landmines both in the "Stan" as well as on the home front!


----------



## angelpixie

Sounds like you're settling into your own kind of 'normal,' Soca. :smthumbup: It must feel good not to deal with drama (or much, anyway) nowadays. Are the boys getting excited for Halloween? What are they going to be?


----------



## soca70

Costume 1 (which will probably be victim to a change of heart five minutes before going out the door!)


----------



## soca70

Costume 2 (which I noticed was on the list of Top 15 Most Inappropriate Kids Costumes of All Time)


----------



## angelpixie

So, SocaSon1 is trying out for the Tie-Dye Man Group?


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa, my vote is with the tie dye look - it's absolutely appalling, so perfect for Halloween. 

You sound more upbeat than a few weeks ago - you clearly are enjoying your job, which is a good thing. It also appears that you really enjoy traveling - I know airports suck and all that but getting out of town a few nights a week, etc. is very therapeutic, I believe.

Same old thing here in the Stan. I managed to secure a tiny room off a shed the motorpool had for tools, tried to fix it up a little, last night some Afghan stole my door for firewood.


----------



## angelpixie

soca70 said:


> Costume 2 (which I noticed was on the list of Top 15 Most Inappropriate Kids Costumes of All Time)


I'm pretty sure these two are much worse:








^^ Don Draper, in case you can't see the name tag


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Same old thing here in the Stan. I managed to secure a tiny room off a shed the motorpool had for tools, tried to fix it up a little, last night some Afghan stole my door for firewood.


You know, at some point things just have to get better...


----------



## soca70

Also on the list...Is that a Waffle House waitress? I see a future Mrs BW!


----------



## soca70

soca70 said:


> Also on the list...Is that a Waffle House waitress? I see a future Mrs BW!


----------



## soca70

Hold on!!!


----------



## soca70

There!


----------



## angelpixie

Hint: When her diaper sticks out above the panties, she's too young.


ETA: Or too old.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Hint: When her diaper sticks out above the panties, she's too young.
> 
> 
> ETA: Or too old.


Please be assured I'm referring to the lovely mother in this picture...


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, SoCa, best picture of the month, best mother of the year, a baby training to work the pole. What can you say other than, class act?

SoCA, when I return to the U.S. next summer, my first stop will be in a Waffle House, or maybe if I'm flush, the International House of Pancakes. No dating sites, no Christian Singles, no EHarmony. This is where you can meet women. And get two pancakes, eggs and a piece of bad meat for under ten dollars.


----------



## just got it 55

Bullwinkle said:


> Wow, SoCa, best picture of the month, best mother of the year, a baby training to work the pole. What can you say other than, class act?
> 
> SoCA, when I return to the U.S. next summer, my first stop will be in a Waffle House, or maybe if I'm flush, the International House of Pancakes. No dating sites, no Christian Singles, no EHarmony. This is where you can meet women. And get two pancakes, eggs and a piece of bad meat for under ten dollars.


Coronel Hogan Your are such a Jolly Joker

Glad your back Safe

D


----------



## Bullwinkle

Thanks, 55.


----------



## sammy3

Soca70, 
Been following your story, you sound well ! 
Hope your on the other side of life !  

~sammy


----------



## sammy3

Soca70, 
Been following your story, you sound well ! 
Hope your on the other side of life !  

~sammy


----------



## soca70

Bullwinkle said:


> Wow, SoCa, best picture of the month, best mother of the year, a baby training to work the pole. What can you say other than, class act?
> 
> .


Hey don't judge! In order to reach an "elite" level, you have to start training at an early age.


----------



## soca70

sammy3 said:


> Soca70,
> Been following your story, you sound well !
> Hope your on the other side of life !
> 
> ~sammy


Sammy - thanks for the kind words!


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good point, SoCa, and everybody knows all strippers are just doing it to pay their way through law school....


----------



## doureallycare2

angelpixie said:


> Hint: When her diaper sticks out above the panties, she's too young.
> 
> 
> ETA: Or too old.


Angel.. Best one liner ever!!


----------



## soca70

An update...

After work meetings this morning, X and I had an appointment at the family therapist to get back on the behavioral management schedule for son2. Earlier this week while we were discussing this appointment, X had asked me to take off my "business persona" and speak about my feelings more. 

Well for some reason when the session started, I ended up on a couch with my feet up on the coffee table and pretty much let it rip - almost belligerent. The therapist had this "WTF" look on her face and finally steered it back to behavior plan for about the last 15 minutes.

And at the end suggested X and I go to - wait for it - *drumroll* - marriage counseling. Not for reconciliation but for couples counseling as she indicated "like it or not, you two are still a couple when it comes to the boys and the continuing issues, anger, and resentment between you are clouding both of your perceptions on the other's parenting". So we agreed to go back to our original MC. Which apparently elicited a facial reaction from me as the therapist said "Well from that look, maybe another one." I just barked out "Well since it was so successful the first time..."

Went back to work, then headed to gym and X called me if I could take the boys as she felt she was coming down with the flu or something from stress. I said I couldn't pick them up from school but could stop by later to see how it was going. So ended up having dinner over there, movie night, pleasant conversation, reviewed the boys' report card (Behavioral issue son had a spectacular report card - other son's class had a printing problem so it will come out on Monday).

So somewhat strange day...


----------



## HappyKaty

Hi, Soca. 

I just have to ask...

Do you really think MC would be conducive in regards to co-parenting.

The two are completely different.


----------



## tom67

HappyKaty said:


> Hi, Soca.
> 
> I just have to ask...
> 
> Do you really think MC would be conducive in regards to co-parenting.
> 
> The two are completely different.


:scratchhead::scratchhead:


----------



## Conrad

Soca,

Seriously.. for God's sake.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> Seriously.. for God's sake.


Easy pilgrim he is from the land of the dodgers originally

I thought WTF also he should have said

"Thank you for your time goodnight."


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> Soca,
> 
> Seriously.. for God's sake.


Oh, Conrad...I can always count on you for a midnight giggle.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa - 

Here's the Moose Man advice:

Tell both the X and the counselor to eat shyt and bark at the moon.


BW


----------



## just got it 55

Bullwinkle said:


> SoCa -
> 
> Here's the Moose Man advice:
> 
> Tell both the X and the counselor to eat shyt and bark at the moon.
> 
> 
> BW


Southie philosophy reigns supreme 

I agree SoCa This has no place in your interaction with X

She just knows the MC will validate her feelings

fvck em both


----------



## doureallycare2

HappyKaty said:


> Hi, Soca.
> 
> I just have to ask...
> 
> Do you really think MC would be conducive in regards to co-parenting.
> 
> The two are completely different.


I have to agree with both HappyKaty and Conrad....


----------



## happyman64

Most importantly how was the "other" sons report card??? 

And let me impart some wisdom from a guy that had anger/anxiety issues in the past.

While it is true that you both need to coparent, and coparent well together you both need to respect each other.

And until you both can be respectful to each other the MC aka couples therapy on coparenting will be a big waste.

WHat you two really need is time.

Time for you to get over the hurt.

Time for her to pull her head out of her @ss at least halfway so she can be a better parent. Or maybe a better person in general. 

Either way you have to learn to work together. Have i told you lately how attorneys are pain in the @ss to work with......


Be strong Soca. And breeeeeaaaaaattttttthhhhhhheeeee.......

Oooooooffffffffaaaaaaaaaa.

HM


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Most importantly how was the "other" sons report card???
> 
> And let me impart some wisdom from a guy that had anger/anxiety issues in the past.
> 
> While it is true that you both need to coparent, and coparent well together you both need to respect each other.
> 
> And until you both can be respectful to each other the MC aka couples therapy on coparenting will be a big waste.
> 
> WHat you two really need is time.
> 
> Time for you to get over the hurt.
> 
> Time for her to pull her head out of her @ss at least halfway so she can be a better parent. Or maybe a better person in general.
> 
> Either way you have to learn to work together. Have i told you lately how attorneys are pain in the @ss to work with......
> 
> 
> Be strong Soca. And breeeeeaaaaaattttttthhhhhhheeeee.......
> 
> Oooooooffffffffaaaaaaaaaa.
> 
> HM


Thanks, guys! And HK good to hear from you!

I took a bit of a break here. Was starting to feel like Alannis "You Ought To Know" Morrisette. Much better week. It's a time thing as well as a bit of frustration regarding the dating - however I will be patient and I'm not going to waste time/energy barking up trees unless I feel it could turn out to be something. I also think I could qualify to become a priest at this point even though I'm not Catholic.

No MC but an appointment with the family therapist for the evaluation results of my one son. Not ADHD but still a positive effect from the Focalin on impulsivity/temper control so we will keep him on that and evaluate. Tested out on the gifted spectrum which I'm not surprised about. Pulled a 144 on the "Strategizing/Planning" subsection - which could be good and bad!  

Other son's report card was good. He will be placed in accelerated math. We had parent/teacher conferences this week and both had excellent reports so good news there. 

Had to pop in a few times over at X's to drop off stuff for the boys and ended up having dinner Thur night there. Both of us invited with their best friend's mom and sister to dinner and a children's theater production Fri evening and attended that. The boys had their first sleep-over for a birthday party Saturday night with 5 friends - up past midnight so 3 of the team were dragging a bit today for the soccer game this afternoon. Saturday before the sleepover, we did some quick birthday shopping and dinner at their new favorite restaurant "Hometown Buffet". These kids have been to the Caribbean, Southern California, Cape Cod, and Orlando but apparently "Hometown Buffet" is the best place they've ever eaten. For $3.99, I can work that into the schedule!

We had been Halloween "Boo'd" Friday night so we "Boo'd" one of their friends this evening. Halloween is a huge event here in this town and the decorations are up that almost rival Christmas. Boys love it.

Job - not so great. Had a bit of a "Come to Jesus" meeting with my boss about needing the internal resources to make this happen. Put a gamelan in place. Have to make this work as I have a 12 month noncompete contract. Not sure if that's enforceable but am second-guessing this company especially after meeting with my old bosses recently in NYC. This has to be the main priority right now.

So hopefully everyone had a good weekend and let's get off to a good start tomorrow!


----------



## soca70

Message for Conrad:

I have a date with a pharmacist this Sunday afternoon.


----------



## happyman64

Maybe she will slip something into your drink and have her way with you!! 

Have fun on your date.


----------



## just got it 55

soca70 said:


> Message for Conrad:
> 
> I have a date with a pharmacist this Sunday afternoon.


Soca Just the RX you need my young brother

Have Fun


----------



## angelpixie

happyman64 said:


> Maybe she will slip something into your drink and have her way with you!!





just got it 55 said:


> Soca Just the RX you need my young brother


Hmmm, what can I do with this?...pharmacist...white lab coat...pain killers...Ugh. I got nothin'


Oooh wait!! Maybe she brings her own antibiotics (to leave with you)!! :rofl:


----------



## just got it 55

angelpixie said:


> Hmmm, what can I do with this?...pharmacist...white lab coat...pain killers...Ugh. I got nothin'
> 
> 
> Oooh wait!! Maybe she brings her own antibiotics (to leave with you)!! :rofl:


She is the RX he needs


----------



## Pbartender

Take two and call her in the morning.


----------



## soca70

All I'm saying at this point is that it's nice to receive texts that say "You're such a great kisser! When are we making out again?" And not from the pharmacist !


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> All I'm saying at this point is that it's nice to receive texts that say "You're such a great kisser! When are we making out again?" And not from the pharmacist !


:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## angelpixie

So, things are heating up in Soca's world, eh?


----------



## happyman64

angelpixie said:


> So, things are heating up in Soca's world, eh?


I thought I smelled a fire somewhere.

How about some details Soca?

If it wasn't the pharmacist then who was it?

HM


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> I thought I smelled a fire somewhere.
> 
> How about some details Soca?
> 
> If it wasn't the pharmacist then who was it?
> 
> HM


He lost track


----------



## soca70

Guys - quick update - don't want to get into too many details so not to "jinx" anything (like life could be jinxed more!) but did meet someone who we have really hit it off on pretty much all levels. Client relations manager for a financial services company. Master's from Temple Univ in Philly, cooks, loves kids, mutual attraction, great conversationalist, owns own house, loves home improvement projects, design, real estate, solid family background etc. So far, so good! *Waiting for other shoe to drop*

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!


----------



## angelpixie

Great news, Soca!! Happy Thanksgiving, to you, too. Sounds like you having more and more to be thankful for.


----------



## soca70

angelpixie said:


> Great news, Soca!! Happy Thanksgiving, to you, too. Sounds like you having more and more to be thankful for.


I was thinking about that jinx part. This is from a guy that when X left I made sure the toilet seat in the master bath was down as I had read somewhere that an upright seat is bad feng shui and maybe I could turn it around - talk about a change in outlooks right now!


----------



## Awakening2012

Good on you, Soca! When looking in the rear view mirror, one often finds that what appeared to be tragedy, loss and disaster was actually life delivering us to a better place where we could more fully realize our true nature and the depth of our being. Easy for me to say, eh Grasshopper? LOL!

Seriously, I am happy for you and inspired by your example of having the courage to let go of the past and be willing to allow your heart to be open to another.

Have a blessed Thanksgiving!

Cheers, - A12


----------



## just got it 55

Life moves on Huh Soca

Make the best of it young man

Have Fun Always

Love your boys

Love your life and those you choose to be in it

Have a great Thanksgiving everybody

I am so greatful for my sweet wife


----------



## happyman64

Told you it would not take too long Soca.

Now take it slow and enjoy the new feelings.

On a personal note I am just glad she is not an attorney. 

Happy Thanksgiving and let me know what your Mom thinks of her when that time comes......

HM


----------



## soca70

Awakening2012 said:


> Good on you, Soca! When looking in the rear view mirror, one often finds that what appeared to be tragedy, loss and disaster was actually life delivering us to a better place where we could more fully realize our true nature and the depth of our being. Easy for me to say, eh Grasshopper? LOL!
> 
> Seriously, I am happy for you and inspired by your example of having the courage to let go of the past and be willing to allow your heart to be open to another.
> 
> Have a blessed Thanksgiving!
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Thanks, A12! Hopefully things are going well for you. I can already say after the 4 dates I've had with "Poconos", I can see what was missing in my marriage and maybe my X was right in pulling the plug (hard to say that). Funny, XGF in San Diego is texting me tonight also. It's been very hard for me to let go of the fear of the unknown and trying to cling to the familiar. Hopefully, by taking the right steps towards in independence and being my own person will pay off. Anyway, I have a good feeling about this and am moving slowly and enjoying it.

Other positives have been this has made it SOOO much easier to deal with the X and we've had a good co-parenting rhythm going. I think I'm on the track to indifference and was actually OK when X suggested a family trip this spring to NYC as the boys really want to go see where Dadda works. A part of me was like I hope she finds happiness (instead of being hit by a truck )! Tomorrow, I'm taking the boys to my sister's family in Dayton w my parents and then around 3:00 PM dropping them off w X at their best friend's mom's house who is having dinner w her sister and my X. The boys will like this as they will have Thanksgiving w both entire family and friends.

I feel like I have made great strides in the last several weeks and am grateful for that.


----------



## just got it 55

soca70 said:


> Thanks, A12! Hopefully things are going well for you. I can already say after the 4 dates I've had with "Poconos", *I can see what was missing in my marriage and maybe my X was right in pulling the plug (hard to say that). *Funny, XGF in San Diego is texting me tonight also. It's been very hard for me to let go of the fear of the unknown and trying to cling to the familiar. Hopefully, by taking the right steps towards in independence and being my own person will pay off. Anyway, I have a good feeling about this and am moving slowly and enjoying it.
> 
> Other positives have been this has made it SOOO much easier to deal with the X and we've had a good co-parenting rhythm going. I think I'm on the track to indifference and was actually OK when X suggested a family trip this spring to NYC as the boys really want to go see where Dadda works. A part of me was like I hope she finds happiness (instead of being hit by a truck )! Tomorrow, I'm taking the boys to my sister's family in Dayton w my parents and then around 3:00 PM dropping them off w X at their best friend's mom's house who is having dinner w her sister and my X. The boys will like this as they will have Thanksgiving w both entire family and friends.
> 
> I feel like I have made great strides in the last several weeks and am grateful for that.


Soca when / if you can tell X that you will truly be free and maybe her as well 

What a releif for all

It’s better than forgiveness and absolution 
It’s pure understanding that it reveals things as they are
The truth nothing less


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa -

Just checking in, amigo, see how you're doing, and to wish you well.


BW


----------



## soca70

Hey BW! Glad to hear from you!

Let's see how are things going here?

The Good:

1. Dating Poconos and that seems to be going well. Still wary but enjoying it so far. Actually had to get a babysitter on Saturday for a date (which was a new one for me). Home by midnight!

2. Boys are doing well. Lots of activities this time of year. Went to NHL Hockey game on Friday for one of their friend's b-days. X tagged along. B-day party for my niece yesterday in Dayton and they had a good time. 

3. Actually feeling X-mas-y this year (as opposed to last year's rage-fest).

4. Moving greatly towards indifference w X.

The Bad:

1. Dog diagnosed with bladder cancer but hopefully this medication she's on will buy her up to a year.

2. Struggling still with this new company. Don't have a good feeling but trying to make it work (as I have to w this non-compete contract).

The Ugly:

1. Invited to a grand total of zero holiday parties. Seems some of the friends have moved on as well. I haven't really put myself out there so the blame mostly lies here.

2. No family Xmas card this year. Unless some spirit really moves me. Maybe use the one from last year that I posted here if anyone remembers that gem!

All in all, doing OK. To steal someone else's thread tag - just "regrouping".

Hope everyone is doing well!


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa -

Great update! I read it twice - overall, I would rate you "Coping, Positive Attitude". Your comment about your increasing indifference to your ex was the single most important tidbit. The fact that you clearly recall last year's "RAGE FEST" and that a lot of that rage has dissipated tells me that you are dealing with it, that you are standing fast. You could be back in L.A. now, rubbing shoulders with the Beautiful People, but you chose to do what was best for those boys. Chalk one up for the good guys.


BW


----------



## happyman64

Take the boys, get them looking spiffy as well as yourself and have a photo taken.

Use that as your new Xmas card.

It will show that all 3 of you are growing up and movin on.

It is the truth and your reality is it not?


----------



## LongWalk

Is your ex still stuck in the work rut? Did she take the bar?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## angelpixie

I agree with HM -- take a photo. It will still be a keepsake from when they're this age, and I'm sure the extended family will love it. 

Yay! on feeling more Christmas-y this year.  If you feel comfortable, why not invite a few people over yourself? Doesn't have to be anything fancy, just some snack or appetizer-type things and a fancy drink of some kind. Even if it's just a couple of people, it might help you reconnect. Don't wait for an invite, in other words. (Listen to me being all extrovert-y )

Sorry to hear about your dog. I hope you and the boys get some good extra time with her. 

And I'm happy for you and Miss Poconos. Nothing wrong with just enjoying things and taking it slow. 
But in general, it sounds like a great update, Soca! :smthumbup:


----------



## soca70

Seasons greetings, TAMmers!

A bit of a rollercoaster this week. Some highs. More lows than I'd prefer. 

Run-in on Friday with my counterpart in London, UK. Seems a favor I asked of her to demonstrate our services at a property in London last week for a major NYC client of mine while he was overseas presented an opportunity for some major "grand-standing" at my expense to senior management which I had to very gingerly call out and make sure there was no "miscommunication" so back off my customers. Counterpart is a darling of the company - 28, blond, very attractive, former British Olympic diver, a real "spitfire' apparently. And obviously somehow related to Frostine. If I wasn't so sensitive now about this job, I would've shrugged this off but I am so I didn't.

Currently sporting a figurative black eye from the huge red flag that hit me in the face with Poconos. Let's just say I've ramped that down and making a quick exit stage left. Good news is I'm smart enough now to recognize these things and not invest inordinate amounts of time.

Said red flag sent me on another date with pharmacist on Friday as pharmacist is extremely nice and conservative. Unfortunately, pharmacist is about as exciting as watching paint dry and was "I had so much fun tonight" and I was nursing a pretty strong tension headache.

So on the dating front, back to square one. At church Sunday, I was scanning that crowd like nobody's business!

And speaking of church, I was over at X's place pretty much all day Saturday as the boys were there and I had ditched Poconos and wanted to see the kids instead. Dinner, movie, X goes to gym, etc. And since X is on the committee board at church, I asked about how to get on one of the committees (because I need SOME sort of outside involvement). X says to talk to the minister about this and informs me that she's resigning from all of the church boards as she's kind of done with the "church thing" and moving on as it's kind of awkward now. Apparently, she's locked in tight with one of Executive Directors of a major local fundraiser and has been making the charity and social activism party circuit. And looking to get involved in one of these organizations instead (because they involve parties and socializing with the A-list is my thought). Which leaves me holding the bag on the religious training for the boys (which in itself is a funny thought to those who know me). Yes, this speaks for itself.

On the positive side however, X makes the most of the "parenting time" with cookie baking, cupcake making for school for the boys' birthdays, and (as my mother says) "flits around" for the events, etc. Amazingly, any real planning and thought for activities is now on me (indoor soccer, swimming, after-school activities, talking to the teachers on academics, doctor's appointments, dentist appointments). I had to schedule a meeting yesterday with her to plan their birthday party on Jan 4. This is someone who obsessed on the most minute details of these things a few years ago. Again, no comment needed.

So, I've been having some resentful thoughts about how I was pretty much demanded to have kids in order to stay married (and uprooted my entire life to accommodate this) and am now shouldered with the bulk of the responsibility on my own. 

However, the boys and I get along great and they do have someone who has their best interests at heart plus my family's unwavering support and involvement. And as such, I did get them spiffed up as much as possible (which is not much ) and had my parents take pictures on Tuesday at the club for the Christmas cards (I made it a big deal and outing so it would be exciting). I made the cards today and will be sending out this week (I asked X to send over the mailing address list).

As for the shared schedule for Christmas, X and I have worked it out that we will both be with the boys on Christmas Eve and Day. X is having Christmas Eve dinner at the apartment (even though I said we have a formal dining room over here and she's got a converted office desk but I didn't push) and then we are going to church (probably for her last hurrah) at 7 PM. And then I'm going with the boys again at 11 PM with my parents and my sister's family. And I am spending the night at the apartment for Christmas Eve so I will be with the boys for "Santa". Then off to my parents and the rest of the family for the remainder of the day around 1 PM. X said "Technically, my time is..." and I said (instead of thank you for being flexible) "Well I'm not letting your actions f**k up everyone else's holidays so I'm working with you on this." 

Merry Christmas!


----------



## happyman64

> So, I've been having some resentful thoughts about how I was pretty much demanded to have kids in order to stay married (and uprooted my entire life to accommodate this) and am now shouldered with the bulk of the responsibility on my own.


I think I mentioned this would happen so many months ago.

You have your Ex pegged. She is following the script. Wait till she gets a serious BF. Then you will really resent her. And your boys might too......

And I'm sure the dating scene is causing further angst for you.
As well as work.

It is good you see the issues clearly so you can deal with them.

Your boys need you Soca. Now and for the foreseeable future. 

Be the better parent. Be the better partner. And do not let the mess she created define you. Keep stopping her in her tracks and put the kids first.

And do not ever let her forget where your priorities lie.

Have a great Christmas. And since you are going to Mass twice on Christmas takeoff on Sunday. 

HM


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> So, I've been having some resentful thoughts about how I was pretty much demanded to have kids in order to stay married (and uprooted my entire life to accommodate this) and am now shouldered with the bulk of the responsibility on my own.


Just think about her shouldering that responsibility.

Here's the deal... and this is why she's ALWAYS been my list of top TAM spouse a-holes....

I've been through the in vitro deal. I realize what a price you pay for that - both emotionally - and financially.

I'd always suspected it was to "make her happy"

What a pathetic cretin she is.

Right up there with happiernot, CG's Crazy Town, and Chuck71's Window Cork.


----------



## angelpixie

Just stopping by to wish you and the boys a Merry Christmas, Soca!


----------



## soca70

Merry Christmas, TAMmers!


----------



## angelpixie

Awwww -- that's great, Soca! I'm so glad you went ahead and did the card.  I hope you and the boys had a nice Christmas.


----------



## GutPunch

Merry Xmas s
Soca
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Merry Christmas Brother
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Awesome card SOCA! 

Merry Christmas to you and have a blessed New Year.


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Merry Christmas, TAMmers!


Makes me feel like sending my address.


----------



## golfergirl

A hottie and cuties! Double deadly combo! Dating world - watch out!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

Well Happy New Year to the TAM "gang"!

I would love to be able to say everything is going well but the boards are for the truth.

The anger and resentment bubbled over again the last few weeks. I called X on what I thought was BS about kids not being a priority, foisting them off on neighbors, etc during the schedule. I believe my words were "If you are not able or unwilling to honor your commitments for parenting time, please let me know and I can have (lawyer) re-visit the custody agreement." A few days later I am told by X that she is "not liking me right now".

On the plus side, we made it through the boys birthday events (Jan1) fine. Which included a "family day" on their actual b-day and 13 friends on 1/3 at the indoor trampoline place.

Boys and I hunkered down for the "polar vortex" and didn't leave the house for 3 days due to the -10 degree weather. Everyone got a little stir crazy by the end!

So this evening, I text X to ask (rather than just demand) that I pick up the boys tomorrow for the first indoor soccer practice tomorrow (which X was reluctant earlier this week). Receive text back that boys were at the neighbor's (as usual) and she was at an event tonight and if I wanted to speak with them to call our babysitter. 

S**t likes this just sets me off. Rationally, I'm thinking "Well I just asked (babysitter) if she was available this coming Saturday (my night) as there was a Pops concert I wanted to go to so I'm doing the same thing." But this segues for me into flashbacks of "I have achieved balance in my life, blah blah". Yeah by ditching your kids half time. And the sad thing is I have said this over and over and over (no 2X4s please). I think I'm looking for an acknowledgement that will never come.

And with this comes my frustration that I feel like I still have no "balance" in mine and that X is just moving along swimmingly. Really co-parenting like this is a hell I would not wish on anyone. Having to deal with these people is like a constant slap in the face.

Well, on the upside, I have a date planned with someone from church. And I think is a new relationship really the goal? Like that's the "reward" for going through all this crap.

I was thinking to going back to the IC. But feel like "Well, what do you want, Soca?" isn't cutting it. Frankly if it wasn't for the boys, I'd move back to California at this point.

Well, this too shall pass so just plugging along.


----------



## ReGroup

Hang in there buddy.

And, stop seeking validation from that woman - I can't think of a worse source.

In regards to the date ... Treat it like batting practice. Get those reps in.

Great to hear from you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Soca

You are still pretty early along on the coparenting trail.

And to be honest I think a number of us said your Ex was going to pull this crap.

So keep track of it if it bothers you so much. Set a limit and if she surpasses it call your lawyer.

Or make a conscious decision to move on with your life and just wear a tshirt with the logo "FU" on it everytime you go to pickup the kids. See the samples below.

Because I will repeat "The best revenge is to live a great life".

Without her in it.

And I think if you get this frustrated you should always come here to vent.

What does your Mom think of your Ex's coparenting so far???

Your Mom usually has a pretty good handle on things.

HM


----------



## just got it 55

Soca She acts this way to justify her decisions 

OK She “says” she found her balance

From the outside looking in

She is way off balance

Her balance is to live the single life and have you to cover the real stuff 

The stuff that's NOT FUN Thats not ballance

You know this….. RG is exactly correct

Stop seeking validation and approval from this pathetically selfish woman

I live with a certifiable perfect mother every day for 35 years

So you could say I know what I am talking about

In every situation a parent puts their children first 

Better than my own mom she was pretty good as well

55

ETA: If you want your life to improve to where you want to be

Put more focus on you (((((Get some ballance for yourself )))) . A happy you makes a happy dad

My signature line are words to live by


----------



## just got it 55

soca70 said:


> Thanks, A12! Hopefully things are going well for you. I can already say after the 4 dates I've had with "Poconos", I can see what was missing in my marriage and maybe my X was right in pulling the plug (hard to say that). Funny, XGF in San Diego is texting me tonight also. It's been very hard for me to let go of the fear of the unknown and trying to cling to the familiar. Hopefully, by taking the right steps towards in independence and being my own person will pay off. Anyway, I have a good feeling about this and am moving slowly and enjoying it.
> 
> Other positives have been this has made it SOOO much easier to deal with the X and we've had a good co-parenting rhythm going. I think I'm on the track to indifference and was actually OK when X suggested a family trip this spring to NYC as the boys really want to go see where Dadda works. A part of me was like I hope she finds happiness (instead of being hit by a truck )! Tomorrow, I'm taking the boys to my sister's family in Dayton w my parents and then around 3:00 PM dropping them off w X at their best friend's mom's house who is having dinner w her sister and my X. The boys will like this as they will have Thanksgiving w both entire family and friends.
> 
> I feel like I have made great strides in the last several weeks and am grateful for that.


Soca WTF happened to this mindset ?

55


----------



## doureallycare2

Soca,
I understand the ups and downs.. especially with the co-parenting thing.... unfortionatly you are going to have many times through this where you will feel out of balance... It is going to be up to you to go to that mind set or Verse of what ever helps you to find your center again.. remember its ok... bad days happen... dont beat yourself up about it..this to shall pass..


----------



## indiecat

Soca just be happy you are not me. My ex poisoned the kids against me and I don't see them. Focus on building the bonds with your kids and having good times together. They are your greatest blessing. Just having them in your life.


----------



## soca70

Guys-

Thanks for all the input. Had a few rough days there. Had a bit of a "Come to Jesus" conversation with the X and aired my concerns. That sounds pretty calm but it included statements like:

X: "Soca, you have gone out of your way to make my life miserable and you know I am a good parent who puts the boys first and your warped sense of perception cannot see that. You need to be encouraging instead of neutral with the boys when they complain about being over here. You need to do what's best for them and cooperate with me more. Your behavior choices will define our relationship"

Soca: "Why can you not see where it would be difficult to be cooperative with someone who kicked me to the curb, destroyed our family, and leaves me to deal with kids who get upset about switching houses, not seeing their dad, etc. We made a commitment to have these kids together and you bailed (X: "With good reason") and the kids' well-being trumps your need for life balance in my eyes."

Soca: "And speaking of "good reason", I am waiting for the day to hear you take ANY sort of responsibility for our issues. I am sick and tired of hearing how everything is my fault. Look at your behavior and see why you got some of the reactions you did."

Soca: And so forth and so on with nuggets about not having the Explorer back seats fixed to keep the kids separated so they don't beat the hell out of each other because of money shortages but money for a new stereo system ("I needed the Bluetooth for safety") and going out with friends ("I get free cranberry and soda so I spend at most like $20). God, an answer for everything!!!

End said conversation with:

X: "Soca, we have really got to let this go - both of us."

Maybe not so productive but I felt better just getting it out.

So, the good news - boys had fantastic report cards, work has picked up, we've been having a great time doing stuff like scout charity events at the Build-a-Bear store and funny enough looking at patio furniture, Jacuzzis, and air hockey tables at the local "dream" store (which has prompted a request for a queen-sized TempurPedic $4500 bed). Went to Burger King for the first time (good food, but apparently kind of "junky" inside). And speaking of food, a request for the next birthday party at Golden Corral which was another first but apparently pretty show-stopping. Well it wouldn't be the usual inside jump house that's a regular on the Bday circuit .

Bad news - Caught the last flight out of Columbus to Newark today for a big event in NJ I am supposed to host tomorrow. Huge storm has pretty much cratered that so playing the next couple of days by ear. And this morning getting my luggage to the car for the airport, I ended up biting it on the sidewalk in the snow because I had my dress shoes on and am fairly certain I have cracked a rib. Was thinking of going to an urgent care here in NJ but more concerned about getting stuck somewhere without a car in this mess so I'm popping Tylenol. As I was laying in the snow, I was thinking "God I hate Ohio..."

On the plus side, I have a date with someone from church Saturday night and am continuing to chat with some other "prospects". Have gone on some other coffee dates but nothing clicking but pleasant enough. Of course, my "ideal" reached out to me (amazingly) but is located in Chicago .

Anyway hopefully those of you caught in the weather fare OK!


----------



## Conrad

The hell with her.

Easily one of the most selfish disgusting people I've ever heard of.

She's right about one thing. Let it go.

She's worthless.

Acknowledge it, accept it, and co-parent as best you can.

You will not be able to change her - no matter what.

And, no... she will never see your point of view.

At this point, why do you expect it?


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> Guys-
> 
> Thanks for all the input. Had a few rough days there. Had a bit of a "Come to Jesus" conversation with the X and aired my concerns. That sounds pretty calm but it included statements like:
> 
> X: "Soca, you have gone out of your way to make my life miserable and you know I am a good parent who puts the boys first and your warped sense of perception cannot see that. You need to be encouraging instead of neutral with the boys when they complain about being over here. You need to do what's best for them and cooperate with me more. Your behavior choices will define our relationship"
> 
> Soca: "Why can you not see where it would be difficult to be cooperative with someone who kicked me to the curb, destroyed our family, and leaves me to deal with kids who get upset about switching houses, not seeing their dad, etc. We made a commitment to have these kids together and you bailed (X: "With good reason") and the kids' well-being trumps your need for life balance in my eyes."
> 
> Soca: "And speaking of "good reason", I am waiting for the day to hear you take ANY sort of responsibility for our issues. I am sick and tired of hearing how everything is my fault. Look at your behavior and see why you got some of the reactions you did."
> 
> Soca: And so forth and so on with nuggets about not having the Explorer back seats fixed to keep the kids separated so they don't beat the hell out of each other because of money shortages but money for a new stereo system ("I needed the Bluetooth for safety") and going out with friends ("I get free cranberry and soda so I spend at most like $20). God, an answer for everything!!!
> 
> End said conversation with:
> 
> X: "Soca, we have really got to let this go - both of us."
> 
> Maybe not so productive but I felt better just getting it out.
> 
> So, the good news - boys had fantastic report cards, work has picked up, we've been having a great time doing stuff like scout charity events at the Build-a-Bear store and funny enough looking at patio furniture, Jacuzzis, and air hockey tables at the local "dream" store (which has prompted a request for a queen-sized TempurPedic $4500 bed). Went to Burger King for the first time (good food, but apparently kind of "junky" inside). And speaking of food, a request for the next birthday party at Golden Corral which was another first but apparently pretty show-stopping. Well it wouldn't be the usual inside jump house that's a regular on the Bday circuit .
> 
> Bad news - Caught the last flight out of Columbus to Newark today for a big event in NJ I am supposed to host tomorrow. Huge storm has pretty much cratered that so playing the next couple of days by ear. And this morning getting my luggage to the car for the airport, I ended up biting it on the sidewalk in the snow because I had my dress shoes on and am fairly certain I have cracked a rib. Was thinking of going to an urgent care here in NJ but more concerned about getting stuck somewhere without a car in this mess so I'm popping Tylenol. As I was laying in the snow, I was thinking "God I hate Ohio..."
> 
> On the plus side, I have a date with someone from church Saturday night and am continuing to chat with some other "prospects". Have gone on some other coffee dates but nothing clicking but pleasant enough. Of course, my "ideal" reached out to me (amazingly) but is located in Chicago .
> 
> Anyway hopefully those of you caught in the weather fare OK!


So when are you coming down to my hood.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> The hell with her.
> 
> Easily one of the most selfish disgusting people I've ever heard of.
> 
> She's right about one thing. Let it go.
> 
> She's worthless.
> 
> Acknowledge it, accept it, and co-parent as best you can.
> 
> You will not be able to change her - no matter what.
> 
> And, no... she will never see your point of view.
> 
> At this point, why do you expect it?


Conrad is right you are whipping the dead horse here.
We are all recovering codependents in one form or another.
Me, Ceegee, Rg and others are all at different stages of this.
Just a reminder and I think you'll know.
You are not alone and you are not special.
Progress not perfection.
Peace.


----------



## Bullwinkle

SoCa -

Thanks for the update, amigo.

While I agree with other posters that you must indeed learn to let her and all of this go, I do understand very much your second paragraph wherein you detail how you asked X, how can you not understand how I am less than willing to cooperate with you when you kicked me to the curb, scrwed up my children, maybe for life, etc.

This likewise for me has been the biggest hurdle, the biggest issue - Frostine had turned her back on me, dissolved our family, on and on, but then expected me to be this serene, understanding co-parenter, even a friend. Bull f**king shyt!

This is where I ran afoul of many of my best friends, family and fellow TAMers - I would never in a million years be able to be her friend, I'd have probably shot her if I thought I could get away with it.

So just keep on keeping on, SoCa, you have done much better than me throughout this. But don't think there is something wrong with you for having these feelings. If you want to hate her guts for what she did to you because she destroyed everything, then f**king hate her guts and be proud of it.


BW


----------



## just got it 55

Conrad said:


> The hell with her.
> 
> Easily one of the most selfish disgusting people I've ever heard of.
> 
> She's right about one thing. Let it go.
> 
> She's worthless.
> 
> Acknowledge it, accept it, and co-parent as best you can.
> 
> You will not be able to change her - no matter what.
> 
> And, no... she will never see your point of view.
> 
> At this point, why do you expect it?


Exactly correct Chip


----------



## LongWalk

Soca,

She is unhappy and that is her punishment.
If you are a little more friendly, it will only sharpen her sense of failure inside. Don't worry indifference will come and then she will not rile you much, unless she does something psycho.

How is her career doing?


----------



## Pictureless

Good job Soca. I use you and others for my inspiration. 

I wouldn't have restated what she did to you though. You both know that history. 

Instead I would have said something like "sorry you feel that way. I am cooperating with you. We have nothing further to discuss other than parenting and custody issues."

I'm not saying what you said was wrong, I'm just saying how I would have handled it. Her being miserable and believing you are not helping are her feelings which you cannot control. Its not about her. Its about your kids and you.


----------



## doureallycare2

Socca,

I think most of us can understand your frustration with trying to get her to see your point of view.. I mean you would think that if anyone could look at the situation rationally they would see how and why you react the way you do. However whenever there is the amount of irresponsibility that your x, an BW x have displayed how can you expect a rational understanding of the consequences? They are not willing to accept responsibility, accountability, blame or shame. The more you try and make her see that the more she will shift the responsibility to you. You’re beating a dead horse. If you couldn’t resolve conflict in your marriage what makes you think you can resolve it during or after a divorce. Instead you need to remember that irresponsibility always creates conflict. You know my your x’s past and present behavior that she is and will be irresponsible so you need to be prepared to handle the conflict in a way that will best get the results needed for your boys. You can’t be in attack mode or “can’t you grasp this” mode, because the answer will always be no… all you can do is take responsibility for you, your actions, your words and be prepared because this will definitely happen again.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Wow, DYRC, great post.


----------



## doureallycare2

Thank you Hun.. you can’t keep putting the same ingredients in a recipe and expect different results. I’m trying to implement that in my own life, the only thing I can truly effect change in is myself..


----------



## just got it 55

If I continuously kick a dog shouldn't I expect him to bite me ?


----------



## Awakening2012

Bullwinkle said:


> Wow, DYRC, great post.


Pardon going off topic, but does anyone know, what's happened to BW's main thread ("Stop Dragging My Heart Around") -- it seems he has deleted it? BW, I hope you are not leaving us, bro!

Cheers,- A12


----------



## Pam

I don't see it either, and I know that he didn't delete it.


----------



## angelpixie

It looks like it's gone -- if you go to BW's profile and look for threads he's started, there are none listed.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hello, BW here.

I went to go onto my thread yesterday to write my usual silliness and couldn't find it anywhere. IDK if I deleted it by mistake somehow or if I got banned for some transgression. Last night I wrote to the TAM administrators asking what had happened - no response so far.

soCa, sorry to use your thread to communicate, hope you are well, 


Bullwinkle


----------



## angelpixie

Glad to hear you're OK, BW. I know we were worried about you.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Thanks, AP. You can't keep a good man down, blah, blah blah....


----------



## soca70

BW-

No worries! Please use my thread for however long you need.

However, I'm changing my avatar to a flying squirrel and I believe we may have space to consolidate A12 and HM64 and take this show on the road!


----------



## soca70

doureallycare2 said:


> Socca,
> 
> I think most of us can understand your frustration with trying to get her to see your point of view.. I mean you would think that if anyone could look at the situation rationally they would see how and why you react the way you do. However whenever there is the amount of irresponsibility that your x, an BW x have displayed how can you expect a rational understanding of the consequences? They are not willing to accept responsibility, accountability, blame or shame. The more you try and make her see that the more she will shift the responsibility to you. You’re beating a dead horse. If you couldn’t resolve conflict in your marriage what makes you think you can resolve it during or after a divorce. Instead you need to remember that irresponsibility always creates conflict. You know my your x’s past and present behavior that she is and will be irresponsible so you need to be prepared to handle the conflict in a way that will best get the results needed for your boys. You can’t be in attack mode or “can’t you grasp this” mode, because the answer will always be no… all you can do is take responsibility for you, your actions, your words and be prepared because this will definitely happen again.


This sums it up! Thanks DYRC!


----------



## Bullwinkle

LOL, thanks, SoCa!

I won't invade your thread for long, it's like having a house guest that uses your razor and flirts with your wife.

BW


----------



## tom67

Bullwinkle said:


> LOL, thanks, SoCa!
> 
> I won't invade your thread for long, it's like having a house guest that uses your razor and flirts with your wife.
> 
> BW


Maybe the taliban hijacked your thread.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Maybe so, Tommy. Hope you're well.


----------



## tom67

Bullwinkle said:


> Maybe so, Tommy. Hope you're well.


Freezing my arse off here will be a high 1 today.


----------



## just got it 55

SoCa I want to hear something positive Lil Bro

55


----------



## soca70

just got it 55 said:


> SoCa I want to hear something positive Lil Bro
> 
> 55


Hey 55 - thanks for checking in! Just saw BW's farewell post - it makes me somewhat sad - in a way, I feel like I've lost a connection that was so important over the last year.

On a positive note, I'm taking the boys to Aruba for a week on Thursday. My parents have a timeshare down there and we are doing a winter "getaway".

Work has gotten much busier so hopefully some of these deals I'm working on will close this quarter and give me some breathing room.

Just did bills today and I'm wondering if and how long I can keep this house as my income was cut in half. Can't really step down in this school district as there's nothing on the market unless I opt for a condo (which I really don't want the boys to grow up in). Luckily X is in LA for two weeks or I'd be over there reading the riot act! Will discuss with my parents this week for some solution.

A couple of dates that went nowhere, starting to get concerned!

Boys are excited to be in Aruba so looking forward to that!


----------



## tom67

soca70 said:


> Hey 55 - thanks for checking in! Just saw BW's farewell post - it makes me somewhat sad - in a way, I feel like I've lost a connection that was so important over the last year.
> 
> On a positive note, I'm taking the boys to Aruba for a week on Thursday. My parents have a timeshare down there and we are doing a winter "getaway".
> 
> Work has gotten much busier so hopefully some of these deals I'm working on will close this quarter and give me some breathing room.
> 
> Just did bills today and I'm wondering if and how long I can keep this house as my income was cut in half. Can't really step down in this school district as there's nothing on the market unless I opt for a condo (which I really don't want the boys to grow up in). Luckily X is in LA for two weeks or I'd be over there reading the riot act! Will discuss with my parents this week for some solution.
> 
> A couple of dates that went nowhere, starting to get concerned!
> 
> Boys are excited to be in Aruba so looking forward to that!


You lucky bastage!


----------



## happyman64

Soca



> A couple of dates that went nowhere, starting to get concerned!


Stop trying so hard. I know that sounds weird but being in sales sometimes that is exactly what is needed.

I was frustrated last year so I just stopped pushing my deals by the last quarter.

BAM! All of a sudden the floodgates opened and I wrote the whole year in November and December.

I still have business flowing in.

It makes no sense at all Soca.

You will find the right woman when you least expect it.
when you are not pushing for it.

So watch those vibes you are giving off.

And do not bother venting on the Ex. She does not care at aaaaaallllllllllll...........

HM


----------



## soca70

happyman64 said:


> Soca
> 
> 
> 
> Stop trying so hard. I know that sounds weird but being in sales sometimes that is exactly what is needed.
> 
> I was frustrated last year so I just stopped pushing my deals by the last quarter.
> 
> BAM! All of a sudden the floodgates opened and I wrote the whole year in November and December.
> 
> I still have business flowing in.
> 
> It makes no sense at all Soca.
> 
> You will find the right woman when you least expect it.
> when you are not pushing for it.
> 
> So watch those vibes you are giving off.
> 
> And do not bother venting on the Ex. She does not care at aaaaaallllllllllll...........
> 
> HM


Thanks, HM!

I wasn't clear on this. The lack of interest has been on my part not the other way around! I've been doing this online thing which hasn't translated so well in real life. Which I remember was the case way back in the day (at the advent of the internet it seems!) 

Because I work at home, travel, etc, I just really have not met someone I would want to ask out (well - that are available and wouldn't violate every TAM rule we have on here!). So playing a bit of a numbers game online for now.

Still thinking about XGF in SD though - again we've been talking every week but I cannot figure a way that anything could work at a distance...hmmm...

And yes the X does not want to hear about any financial issues on my part!


----------



## soca70

Back from Aruba late Monday night...Storms on the East Coast had us "stranded" for an additional 5 days. Great time and just what the doctor ordered! Pic is from the ever-popular Ostrich Farm!


----------



## angelpixie

Nice!! Glad you had a good time -- lucky you, stranded in the islands. Most of the U.S. was stranded in a snowstorm! :rofl:

(and I'm digging the scruff :smthumbup: )


----------



## Bullwinkle

Yo, SoCa, thinking of you, amigo, and the family. Ostrich farm and Aruba, just doesn't get any better than that. 


BW


----------



## doureallycare2

Glad you had a great winter vaca! I never got to the Ostrich farm when I was on aruba... looks fun....


----------



## soca70

Quick update...

Work has picked up considerably. I closed several significant deals last week and have many "pokers in the fire" so I'm feeling much better about this. My current company just acquired one of our competitors so my instincts about this move are proving correct (hopefully!)

X took the quarterly 2 week trip 2 weeks ago and extended it through this week for a court appearance in LA (so 3 weeks) so I have really been doing the single parenting thing which has been incredibly busy but I have mastered this! Example this past weekend - Sat - Scout Pinewood Derby (week of making these cars w the boys and my dad). Followed by lunch at the Hometown Buffet and then "Mr Peabody and Sherman" and then sushi at the "fancy" grocery store (where a woman came up to me to compliment me on having the boys eating sushi) and then the staple "Movie Night". Sunday morning, church followed by lunch at Panera, and then swimming at the YMCA, homework and bed. 

The boys received awesome report cards on Friday plus invites for 3 birthday parties (not counting last weekend's sleepover bday party) and a "special invite" to be in a group for the school talent show with a group of 8 boys. Indoor soccer ended last weekend and I'm signing them up again for spring indoor soccer and the local Kiwanis soccer. Registration this week for June start of baseball.

And in between all this, my parents stayed with the boys last week for 2 nights when I went to NJ/NYC for a big presentation/dinner/meetings and when X gets back Thur, I fly to Chicago for the day for a meeting that afternoon. Planning a West Coast trip out the first week of April and will be seeing XGF in San Diego who said my derby cars looked amazing!

So I've lined up a date this weekend with a dentist on sat and a financial services trainer on sun. And turned down what I think may have been a proposal for marriage! (Not really but I have found that receiving WAY TOO MUCH interest after one date is somewhat scary ).

So some introspection yesterday. I really feel like I have almost reached the point of "coming into my own" - and a lot of the fears, insecurities, ect have really retreated and I am (as of now!) enjoying life again.

Hope everything is going well for you guys! Also, has anyone been in contact with Bullwinkle? It looks like his thread is gone again.


----------



## just got it 55

soca70 said:


> Quick update...
> 
> Work has picked up considerably. I closed several significant deals last week and have many "pokers in the fire" so I'm feeling much better about this. My current company just acquired one of our competitors so my instincts about this move are proving correct (hopefully!)
> 
> X took the quarterly 2 week trip 2 weeks ago and extended it through this week for a court appearance in LA (so 3 weeks) so I have really been doing the single parenting thing which has been incredibly busy but I have mastered this! Example this past weekend - Sat - Scout Pinewood Derby (week of making these cars w the boys and my dad). Followed by lunch at the Hometown Buffet and then "Mr Peabody and Sherman" and then sushi at the "fancy" grocery store (where a woman came up to me to compliment me on having the boys eating sushi)
> and then the staple "Movie Night". Sunday morning, church followed by lunch at Panera, and then swimming at the YMCA, homework and bed.
> 
> The boys received awesome report cards on Friday plus invites for 3 birthday parties (not counting last weekend's sleepover bday party) and a "special invite" to be in a group for the school talent show with a group of 8 boys. Indoor soccer ended last weekend and I'm signing them up again for spring indoor soccer and the local Kiwanis soccer. Registration this week for June start of baseball.
> 
> And in between all this, my parents stayed with the boys last week for 2 nights when I went to NJ/NYC for a big presentation/dinner/meetings and when X gets back Thur, I fly to Chicago for the day for a meeting that afternoon. Planning a West Coast trip out the first week of April and will be seeing XGF in San Diego who said my derby cars looked amazing!
> 
> So I've lined up a date this weekend with a dentist on sat and a financial services trainer on sun. And turned down what I think may have been a proposal for marriage! (Not really but I have found that receiving WAY TOO MUCH interest after one date is somewhat scary ).
> 
> So some introspection yesterday. I really feel like I have almost reached the point of "coming into my own" - and a lot of the fears, insecurities, ect have really retreated and I am (as of now!) enjoying life again.
> 
> Hope everything is going well for you guys! Also, has anyone been in contact with Bullwinkle? It looks like his thread is gone again.


Good for you soca70

Glad you have things on track.

I tried to PM BW tonight and it has been disabled

Last I heard from him he was going to see his son in SD

from his first M

Hope he is OK I know for sure he is real

55


----------



## happyman64

Great update Soca.

I am glad your new job is looking like the right decision.

I think BW will be back. In due time.

Nice to see your boys doing well without their mother around all the time.

And nice to see their father doing well without their mother around as well. 

HM


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Quick update...
> 
> Work has picked up considerably. I closed several significant deals last week and have many "pokers in the fire" so I'm feeling much better about this. My current company just acquired one of our competitors so my instincts about this move are proving correct (hopefully!)
> 
> X took the quarterly 2 week trip 2 weeks ago and extended it through this week for a court appearance in LA (so 3 weeks) so I have really been doing the single parenting thing which has been incredibly busy but I have mastered this! Example this past weekend - Sat - Scout Pinewood Derby (week of making these cars w the boys and my dad). Followed by lunch at the Hometown Buffet and then "Mr Peabody and Sherman" and then sushi at the "fancy" grocery store (where a woman came up to me to compliment me on having the boys eating sushi) and then the staple "Movie Night". Sunday morning, church followed by lunch at Panera, and then swimming at the YMCA, homework and bed.
> 
> The boys received awesome report cards on Friday plus invites for 3 birthday parties (not counting last weekend's sleepover bday party) and a "special invite" to be in a group for the school talent show with a group of 8 boys. Indoor soccer ended last weekend and I'm signing them up again for spring indoor soccer and the local Kiwanis soccer. Registration this week for June start of baseball.
> 
> And in between all this, my parents stayed with the boys last week for 2 nights when I went to NJ/NYC for a big presentation/dinner/meetings and when X gets back Thur, I fly to Chicago for the day for a meeting that afternoon. Planning a West Coast trip out the first week of April and will be seeing XGF in San Diego who said my derby cars looked amazing!
> 
> So I've lined up a date this weekend with a dentist on sat and a financial services trainer on sun. And turned down what I think may have been a proposal for marriage! (Not really but I have found that receiving WAY TOO MUCH interest after one date is somewhat scary ).
> 
> So some introspection yesterday. I really feel like I have almost reached the point of "coming into my own" - and a lot of the fears, insecurities, ect have really retreated and I am (as of now!) enjoying life again.
> 
> Hope everything is going well for you guys! Also, has anyone been in contact with Bullwinkle? It looks like his thread is gone again.


Did you win the Derby?


----------



## doureallycare2

So glad things are looking up for you, its so encouraging to see the light at the end of a long tunnel


----------



## angelpixie

Soca, that's a great update! So glad to hear that work is starting to be a little more secure, though you still lead a life that sounds exhausting, lol. And you've got the dad thing in the bag, too! The boys sound like they're doing great. You do indeed seem to be coming into your own, and that's fantastic. So happy for you and your boys!


----------



## soca70

Conrad-

Well the derby cars looked better than they performed!


----------



## just got it 55

Soca What's up Bud ?

55


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Conrad-
> 
> Well the derby cars looked better than they performed!


I can help you next time around.

We never lost.


----------



## soca70

just got it 55 said:


> Soca What's up Bud ?
> 
> 55


Hey 55 - thanks for checking in - it's been a bit. I see Conrad is permabanned? That's unfortunate as he was one of the TAMMers who really got me through a very tough time and I've always enjoyed our "correspondence" on here. Hopefully, that will be resolved for everyone's benefit.

I had to take a break here as my schedule got incredibly busy for most of April. I had an intense travel schedule coupled with the boys' activities really taking off. For example, I got in one Friday night from Denver at 1:00 AM, then had to take the kids to swim team try-outs that Saturday, followed by a birthday party, then Sunday church, their soccer game, and I was off to the airport late that Sun afternoon to NYC for several days of non-stop meetings. Then the days I was back, I was getting them to school, soccer practice, baseball sign-up, etc. And then repeat! Frankly, I didn't have the bandwidth for anything than what was a must. Frankly, I have been exhausted.

The good news is I had to "let go" and let the X handle a lot of this stuff like talent show practice, scout meetings, etc. I can only be "Superdad" for so long and the X has done a good job with this. We even did a joint Easter appearance at church together and with my family later that day. I had spent the night over "there" Saturday night for the Easter bunny on Sunday morning.

Had a long weekend in San Diego with the XGF and ended up being invited by an old friend to an event that Saturday that he was sponsoring. I hadn't seen him in almost 10 years and when we all got together it was a lot of fun like no time passed at all. Also had brunch with the CEO of Comcast Cable at said event.

Speaking of XGF, we had a great time going out to dinner, the beach, visiting with their family, looking at houses, etc and I ALMOST said something about getting back together. But really evaluated this and realized why our relationship did not work and I still could see that the underlying issue was there. So I enjoyed it and we're still good friends. I just did not want to go the "Be careful what you wish for" route.

So speaking of dating...the recent schedule has put the brakes on any of that. Still working on trying to fit a social life in. Even on the "off" weekends, the boys are doing something that I need to be involved with. Hopefully this will smooth out some. Of course, I just got hit up today to be a swim meet officiator as the coach knows I used to swim competitively for years.

The big issue right now is the finances. With ramping up on this new job (BIG deal should close this quarter thankfully) and the loss of an attorney's income, I'm down about 70% each month and footing this entire mortgage. I could sell this house easily and make some significant $ but this school district market is $$$ and there's really nothing to trade down for which would work for us. My parents and I discussed this and to keep the boys here (as they are doing extremely well), they've agreed to pitch in for a while until the commissions start coming in (these are long sales cycles). I've started cutting the budget down by letting the housekeeper go, cashed in an old life insurance policy to pay off the credit cards, etc. Hopefully about 6 months. Thank God for the parents!

So I'm off to chat with another "match" prospect now and will try to keep up here more.

Hope everyone is doing well and enjoying spring (finally)!


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## soca70

Quick update - scratch that "match" prospect...


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## happyman64

Keep at it Soca. You'll find your perfect pace in time.

Business has picked up for me as well. Thank God!

I was in Texas this week and Punta Cana next week.

Nice to hear the Ex picking up the slack.

Glad your parents are there for you.

Be well and keep hunting. 

HM


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## soca70

Hey guys! Checking in (for whoever is keeping tabs here ) for an update.

Well I hit the TAM trifecta in May:
1) Unemployed 
2) Taking the dog into the vet to be put down 
3) X's new boyfriend appears on the scene

However, you can't keep Soca down!

To address each one of these.
1) That job sucked and I hated it. It was a mistake from Day 1 and I tried to put a "spin" on it mentally and in here. So we had a mutual parting of the ways (about 2 weeks earlier than I had counted on lol!) However, with a lot of assistance/guidance from XGF in San Diego (who is a corporate recruiter), I connected with a former colleague of hers from years ago who I had been introduced to via phone several years ago. I had been asked by this guy for advice over the years about my industry as his company was trying to make some headway. Guy works at a enormously successful multi-billion $ Boston-based company and a position was open in business development for the Midwest and Soca is now employed accordingly and this is a really good fit. Funny thing this company enlisted my aid in trying to get XGF over for the same position on the West Coast (who passed as she may have to take an extended leave because of ailing parents but this would have been our 3rd company together - and there is still interest on both sides). I was told "You owe me big time!"
2) My (our) dog who has been battling bladder cancer since November had a really bad episode and I had to take her in and I called the X to come also as this was looking like maybe the end. However, it turned out to be an unrelated issue and she got back up to speed a couple of days later and is plugging along still. On another note, X and I almost had a fight in front of our vet as the X was I felt pushing to go ahead and euthanize her and I think I made a comment about how if something's not working for her, getting rid of it is her MO now (or words to that effect).
3) And X was very excited for me to meet the new boyfriend (who I discovered via text while borrowing her phone at one of the boy's baseball games). Who after 4 weeks was planning on doing a group introduction with the boys as they would be spending a lot of time together possibly and she wanted this boyfriend to see the interaction, etc etc. Well, let's just say pretty much a knock-down drag-out argument ensued over my thoughts on the appropriateness of that scenario so early with accompanying corroborating journal articles emailed. Flash forward - X and I have limited our communication significantly and Soca has not met this boyfriend nor has any immediate plans to.

So on the positive side, boys and I have had a great summer (X was in LA all of July). They made the Columbus Crew Juniors select soccer team and had a week long soccer camp last week. We've done the Ohio State fair, swim team, the lake house boating, tubing, swimming, etc. I was off work from the end of May to June 23 so I took advantage of that.

Socially, eh...still not great but the chips fell and I inherited our former best friends and have done a fair amount with them. I also have a good friend from church who I basically said "Look anything that you guys do, call me as I need to get out more" so I've been doing some fun stuff there as well. Dating - occasionally but nothing to write about it. Reality is I am so busy right now with the new job/industry plus the boys I don't have much free time (well except at this immediate moment!)

So I'm like my dog - still plugging away here. Hopefully, everyone else is as well and I'd love to hear from you!


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## LongWalk

Great update.

Your ex is still California based for work and had to spend time there? Hard times for lawyers in America.


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## happyman64

Can I ask a question Soca?

Are you and the X officially divorced? My 49 years old brain cannot recall.

And IMO you handled the introduction of her new BF the right way.

I know your X is an attorney but she has awful boundaries when it comes to her children and new people around her.

Stick to your guns and less communication with her the better.


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## doureallycare2

Haha.. Soca, I too like a bad penny have returned. I cant even remember the last time I got on this forum. I was checking my old email account and there you were with this posting.

I'm so sorry for your dog!!, as upsetting as the job thing is we both know that something else will come along. That old adage of when a door closes and all that but how very true! 

I'm almost two embarrassed to write down my tale of woe, even though its not as bad as losing a beloved 4 legged family member.

I just broke up with the guy I've been seeing for the last 6 months and I'm beyond depressed, why, I have no idea. All I can say is I've been reading a lot about narcissist and almost every trait sounds like him. he's 49, very handsome and told me everything I wanted and needed to hear for my first serious post divorce relationship. Because of that and very subtly, I literally let him run my life for the last 4 months. I gave up friends and family because of how jealous and controlling he was. It happened right under my nose, I had so many red flags but I kept making excuses for him. Why? am I that needy that I would go right back into another abusive relationship.. I guess I was, or should I say am because every time he text I want to answer. I havnt though. Its been 2 weeks down now of no contact from me to him,(cant seem to make myself block his number) but I just cant understand why it hurts so much.. all I can think is that the wounds of my divorce and broken heart must have still been more raw then I realized. This guy complemented and seemed to cherish me. he couldn't get enough of me. if we weren't together we were on the phone for 3 hours every night. (He did all the talking-all about him but I was happy to listen) I actually broke up with him last month and told him he wasn't showing me respect and I wasn't going to get into another relationship like my marriage and he convinced me that he loved me. how do I go from trying to be that strong person to letting him play such a game of manipulation with me this last month that I didn't even know who I was anymore. I cried and screamed to myself to have the strength to break up with him... why did it take that...? Why cant my brain and my heart be in agreement?
ugh.. sorry....
just in a raw moment (week) I guess. ill get through it. 

I'm so very glad you are persevering and not giving up though Soca... Ill check in again when I'm in a better place and I don't make this all about me


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## happyman64

DYRC2

Congratulations on your 1st post divorce relationship.

Congratulations on telling that idiot where to take himself and sticking up for yourself.

No one else will.

I think you should be proud of yourself for just "feeling" those feelings again so quickly.

Don't rush or your life will always feel rushed. 

HM


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## LongWalk

DYRC,

You were here a lot back in the BullWinkle days.

Nice to see you again.


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## Ceegee

DYRC2,

It may be hard to see but you're making progress. 

Focus more in yourself. Why you feel the way you do. It has less to do with your M and more to do with past life experiences. FOO stuff. 

Good luck.


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## soca70

DYRC - ahh the old pennies return! LOL Hope you are doing OK!

As for Soca, yes I am officially divorced now but still lingering here. It seems like the Life After Divorce section is where threads go to die!

Updates - about the same. Job is going well and I am enjoying it. Dog is still alive and kicking so that's good also. X has now given her to me full-time as she has to be crated over at the apartment and she doesn't do well in the crate. I had an outing to Lowe's to price out full carpet replacement this evening when the time comes. In the meantime, she's in a good mood (just incontinent - LOL!)

My one son is sick and out of school yesterday and today. X and I did a good job of covering that as I took him to the pediatrician while X took the other one to soccer. I am a fantastic co-parent - bleh! He is still sick so I have him tomorrow while X takes the other one to a soccer game and the zoo. 

The boys are doing really well in school and our district was just named the number one performing in "all of Central Ohio" and in the top 5% in the state. Translated = I'm stuck here for the duration! Interesting development as I hooked good friends of mine from church up and they bought the house next door (if anyone remembers that) and they have 5 year old twin boys. So this should be fun.

Futzing around with dating (even in Chicago). Just going nowhere - I'm starting to feel a bit apprehensive. Working on getting out more and hit up a friend of mine to do something tomorrow. It's tough as I work all week and need to catch up on the weekends and don't really feel like putting a whole lot of effort into some outing. Being "that parent" at soccer games pretty much fulfills my social needs at this point in life . However, monastic life is wearing thin!

Hope everyone is doing well and plugging along!


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## soca70

So a quick update...

X brought over my sickly "DS2" at 10 this morning so he would stay with me while she took "DS1" to the club soccer game. DS2 was upset and really begging to play as he "felt much better" so I agreed to let him try to play. X is looking frazzled as apparently it was a rough morning because of this and says that she has to go back and get his cleats, etc. I said OK, just send DS1 in while you do that. 

"Well he's at home." 
"Alone?" 
"No, Greg (the boyfriend) is over with him since we're doing this zoo trip afterwards." 
"Greg is going to the game?"
"Yes."
"OK, well DS2 and I will meet you there in case he needs to come back."

So (BIG STEP FOR SOCA) I met them at the game. Greg is a good-looking guy that looks about 20 years younger than he is (45) and seemed pleasant but looked a bit uncomfortable. I'm all smiles and intro myself and then proceed to talk to all the other parents. X situates her chair right next to mine with Greg on the other side. Soca could care less! DS2 ended up playing very well and I was also able to lean over and let the X know that their was a very long hair protruding from one nostril that she may want to do something about. 

After the game which the boys won, they pile into X's new VW wagon (as she sold the Explorer). 

My boys never fail to suck the joy out of something so instead of celebrating the win, began fighting because DS2 had emptied his water bottle on DS1. DS1 states that he hated DS2 and wished he was never part of the family and if he was going to the zoo, then DS1 did not want to go. Hits all around. 

I ask them if the wagon has a third row seat so I can separate them and put one in the far back. "No, because this car is so SMALL!" I end up changing the wet uniforms into dry clothes for the zoo. "I don't wanna go!"

Of course, Greg is right outside the passenger door which is open getting an earful of all of this and where the X is I have no idea. Then she appears with a "Pull it together if you want something from the gift shop!" And a hug and kiss to the boys from me. I was initially going to have DS2 spend the afternoon with me but changed my mind as this looked like a good opportunity for someone to learn a life lesson. Enjoy, Greg!

I came home and finalized plans with my friend to meet for dinner, go to the horse races, and cap the evening off at a trashy bar. And who said the LBSs are the losers?


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## happyman64

Good for you Soca.

I hope Greg enjoys a taste of being "temporary" daddy for a few hours.

As always your wife is clueless.

You have grown a lot these last few months.

I hope your Mom and Dad are doing well. Let us know when and if your Mom meets Greg in the near future.

Her "inner eye" view will be interesting.

Keep being you Soca. And I hope the boys enjoy the zoo today. 
:lol:

HM


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## LongWalk

Reminds me to trim nostril hair tomorrow morning.


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## angel kate

There's only 1 thought, I want out and I'll deal with everything else later. #1 priority, get out and then once reality hits it'll either get ugly or they'll just say FU and treat you like you never existed to them.


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## doureallycare2

Laughing out loud at the nose hair.... lol... mean but I like it...

So glad you did well with meeting the other guy....I'm sure that's not the only life lesson that is being learned by him or her... Every relationship has two imperfect people trying to make it work. I can guarantee you there are issues in the relationship!

I'm doing well.. melt down of a few weeks ago has long gone. I have no regrets about ending either relationship anymore! I have been totally able to ignore all calls and texts from the guy I was dating and as for my xh, well I still am in contact because of the boys, house and dogs but we're getting along. he complains about how awful his life is now and wants me to feel sorry for him, which I don't...  
I just got back fro 8 days at Hilton Head SC. so for now, wonderfully relaxed. as for other relationships.....I'm working on me so that if God sends someone ill be ready... but I'm not going to go looking...

Thanks for keeping us updated.... don't let your thread die


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## vn1955

Broken hearts are hard to heal. But a very inspirational quote that's been keeping me going is:

If you can't fly, run
If you can't run, walk
If you can't walk, crawl

But whatever you do, keep moving forward.

MLK

She'll miss you once she's out of the house. I never knew how much I'd miss my husband, until he left.


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## billy baru

Just spent a few hours reading your story Soca. 


All I can tell you is keep on keeping on brother. You're doing great!


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## angel kate

If you make yourself better, you'll feel better about yourself, which will make you more attractive ... to the spouse, or someone new.


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## happyman64

How goes it Soca?


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## soca70

Hey HM! Thanks for checking in. It's actually going OK here. I've been extremely busy the last couple of months with the boys' activities and travelling for work but it's been good.

Prepping now for the holidays. I'm hosting Thanksgiving for the boys and my parents. My house was selected by the Columbus Junior League for their annual "Holiday Home Tour" so I've been getting some projects done for that and will be doing the Christmas decorations up this weekend as the event is the weekend of 12/6.

Since the house will be "done up", I'm also having a holiday party/toy drive that weekend. Since the X was the social coordinator, this was a big step for me. I got out the Evites this week and was stressing a bit but now the yes RSVPs are coming in so that's encouraging!

Since it's my infamous Christmas card time, I just booked today an appointment at a portrait studio for some professional family (well almost everyone ) pictures for prints and cards this year.

Boys are doing very well. We ended fall club and rec league soccer and are now in rec basketball (for the first time) for the winter. Had parent/teacher conferences recently and they both are doing very well in school (one is being geared for the gifted program and I will be working to get both in there as it starts next grade level). 

My dog has defied the odds and is still going strong. God love her I didn't think she'd last until summer and she turned 12 last month and is still looking and feeling good. She's past 1 year since she was diagnosed with bladder cancer but this experimental drug has kept it at bay. She stays with me full-time as the X was confining her and she doesn't do well with that (dog or X). She's not totally incontinent but I will have to replace all the carpet after she passes.

Speaking of X, full-time employment with a 25% raise was found here locally with the "dream firm". Which has resulted in less time with the boys. They recently said that they felt that they were not the priority but "Gr-ee-gg" was. I gave X the heads up and some suggestions for more one on one time but that fell on deaf ears. The boys pretty much now want all the holidays with me at our house which I have been happy to oblige. But we have been amicable and communicative so that's going as well as can be expected.

How have you guys been? I've been a bit of a TAM slacker so I'm not caught up with the latest. Have you heard from Bullwinkle?

Hope all is going well with everyone!


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## happyman64

Great update Soca.

Glad the boys and you are doing well.

Not surprised about the Ex, her job or Gregg.

I truly think that was her plan all along.

For some reason I always got the impression that she was a woman that wanted the kids, wanted the job and ultimately wanted to be the center of attention.

You know how that worked out. Time will tell.

Glad your having the holidays with your family. Your parents are the best.

Keep loving those boys, the dog and yourself.

Maybe a nice young lady will be coming through your house on the "tour".

Look your best.

HM


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## HobbesTheTiger

Thanks for the update.

Are the kids in therapy? I strongly suggest it, they seem like they could use it!

Best wishes


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## LongWalk

BullWinkle may not have been entirely straight with TAM. Frosty joined TAM and cussed him out. He quit posting and deleted all his threads. I liked BullWinkle but he was a tortured soul. I hope he and his wife are in better situation today.

A12 has his real life telephone number but she has not called him.


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## Ceegee

LongWalk said:


> BullWinkle may not have been entirely straight with TAM. Frosty joined TAM and cussed him out. He quit posting and deleted all his threads. I liked BullWinkle but he was a tortured soul. I hope he and his wife are in better situation today.
> 
> A12 has his real life telephone number but she has not called him.



I considered him a TAM friend and still would, despite the deception, if he were to return.


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## LongWalk

Same here.

Come to think of it A12 hasn't posted much lately. She is gentle soul.


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## tom67

I was texting BW back on my old phone...


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## soca70

Hey guys!

I miss BW also and still consider him a friend. Would love to hear from him and A12 as well.

Hobbes - yes the boys were in therapy for 2 years. I may make them sound a little "smart-a$$y" on here but they've been that way since Day One! Actually they are doing fine - very involved with sports, doing very well academically and socially. I keep an eye out for any trouble/changes and am more than willing to return if needed. Was thinking about getting a "check up" in January with our family therapist.

Got back this week from a 5 day mini-vacation to San Diego as I had to take 3 days off or lose them. A bit of a "WTF was I thinking?" though. Think Georgia Peach Part 2. For whatever reason, I had this 8 month long online "relationship" and well...Anyway renewed sense of reality here at home!

Hope everyone is doing well!


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## soca70

Merry Christmas, TAMmers!


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## happyman64

Great looking Boys!

All three of ya!

Have a great Christmas...


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## HobbesTheTiger

Awesome! Thanks for the reply/update! Merry Christmas to the three of you as well!


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## soca70

Just stopping by and checking in. 

X is taking the Ohio bar at the end of Feb so "because of the intense studying", I am the full-time parent this month. I'm posting this just to get a rise out of HM as I'm sure he will appreciate this.

Recreation basketball ended and we are now in the winter training for club soccer. The boys plus Sean's 2nd grade teachers son (who is in the same club) are playing in "The Arnold" (as in Schwarzenneggar) in a 3 vs 3 soccer tourney in a few weeks. "The Arnold" is a huge sports/fitness festival here in Columbus so this will be fun.

The boys have yearly well-check appointments this week with the pediatrician (one down, one to go), I made the semi-annual dentist appointments today, and am working to schedule the boys for a "check-up" with the therapist. And had scheduled 2 play dates over the long weekend. Plus working which is going pretty well. So have been busy.

Got a call from my old best friend (who I've not been in regular contact for a few years) in Los Angeles who noticed on my recently re-activated Facebook page that someone was missing. Have had fun this week catching up with him. He said knowing me I was probably in a padded room for a year. I said no - just on TAM!

Hopefully everyone is doing well!


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## happyman64

> X is taking the Ohio bar at the end of Feb so "because of the intense studying", I am the full-time parent this month


Rise Accomplished. Glad to see my predictions coming true.

Are your Ex's wrinkles starting to show?

She will try to make that your problem too!

Enjoy the time with the boys.

Have you met any nice, pretty and unselfish women lately???


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## LongWalk

I was always curious about her job. She used to fly to California a few times a year. Even if she passes the bar, she is going to sweat for the money. Ohio probably has a better economic situation that some of the neighboring states. Still, hard times for lawyers in the US.


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## tom67

Soca stayed at a 2 star called crimson in manhattan beach for 5 days during superbowl weekend.
Wish I was there now WTF.


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## Ceegee

LongWalk said:


> I was always curious about her job. She used to fly to California a few times a year. Even if she passes the bar, she is going to sweat for the money. Ohio probably has a better economic situation that some of the neighboring states. Still, hard times for lawyers in the US.



Not divorce lawyers.


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## NosborCrop

Following your story,hope you and your kids are ok now


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## happyman64

How goes it Soca?

Haven't heard from you in a little while?

Bet your glad winter is over......


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## soca70

Hey HM! I'm alive here  Haven't been on TAM in some time - a lot has happened over the last several months - some good, some bad, some indifferent. I will try to provide a comprehensive overview without getting into a lot of meaningless details.

Good - 
Boys' club soccer team won their division championship game in May, successful baseball season, successful swim team season. Gearing up for soccer camp in a couple of weeks. Had a boys road trip with my dad and the kids to the Women's World Cup Semi-Finals in Montreal (USA vs Germany). Great time and the boys also met the MLS Montreal Impact players after one of their practices and got a signed soccer ball. Great trip and hit Niagara Falls on the way home.

Boys did well in school and are going into third grade in August. Have started already at the orthodontist. 

Refinanced the X off the house.

Bad-
My dog passed away in April which was very sad but not unexpected. She pulled out a full year and a half after being given 30-60 days at diagnosis. Boys handled it with a lot of maturity and grace and I was very proud of them.

Recent rain caused my basement to flood severely and mitigation, repairs, etc cost about $10K and working to see how much insurance will cover.

Indifferent

Job is going OK. Very cutthroat environment plus politics but my boss is great and we are learning to navigate the treacherous waters together as we started at the same time. Gives me a lot of flexibility though for the boys.

The X got remarried to Greg and they have bought a new house in the neighborhood that they are closing on next month. 

On the relationship front, I have been a dating machine - lol. I told the XGF in San Diego that she's the only person I'd get remarried to a few weeks ago which has elicited ome interesting conversations. This week I rekindled a former relationship here since I've put more distance behind me and am more settled. Now I'm going back and forth whether I should have done that 

Hopefully everyone is doing well and I'd like to catch up. Is Conrad still banned?


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## tom67

soca70 said:


> Hey HM! I'm alive here  Haven't been on TAM in some time - a lot has happened over the last several months - some good, some bad, some indifferent. I will try to provide a comprehensive overview without getting into a lot of meaningless details.
> 
> Good -
> Boys' club soccer team won their division championship game in May, successful baseball season, successful swim team season. Gearing up for soccer camp in a couple of weeks. Had a boys road trip with my dad and the kids to the Women's World Cup Semi-Finals in Montreal (USA vs Germany). Great time and the boys also met the MLS Montreal Impact players after one of their practices and got a signed soccer ball. Great trip and hit Niagara Falls on the way home.
> 
> Boys did well in school and are going into third grade in August. Have started already at the orthodontist.
> 
> Refinanced the X off the house.
> 
> Bad-
> My dog passed away in April which was very sad but not unexpected. She pulled out a full year and a half after being given 30-60 days at diagnosis. Boys handled it with a lot of maturity and grace and I was very proud of them.
> 
> Recent rain caused my basement to flood severely and mitigation, repairs, etc cost about $10K and working to see how much insurance will cover.
> 
> Indifferent
> 
> Job is going OK. Very cutthroat environment plus politics but my boss is great and we are learning to navigate the treacherous waters together as we started at the same time. Gives me a lot of flexibility though for the boys.
> 
> The X got remarried to Greg and they have bought a new house in the neighborhood that they are closing on next month.
> 
> On the relationship front, I have been a dating machine - lol. I told the XGF in San Diego that she's the only person I'd get remarried to a few weeks ago which has elicited ome interesting conversations. This week I rekindled a former relationship here since I've put more distance behind me and am more settled. Now I'm going back and forth whether I should have done that
> 
> Hopefully everyone is doing well and I'd like to catch up. Is Conrad still banned?


Great to hear.
Conrad is permabanned sadly.
Chuck talks with him expect a reply


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## tom67

Soca you can buy her a ring and banquet and not sign a contract with the state.
Just sayin.:nerd:


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## happyman64

Great update Soca. Not surprised your wife remarried so quickly.

Good to hear the boys are doing well and you are a dating machine. 

Remember though, it's quality not quantity that counts.

So how are you and the Ex getting along?

How did the boys take to their Mom remarrying?

My industry is cutthroat as well. It is the economy that makes both buyers and sellers so darn aggressive and show no loyalty whatsoever.

HM


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## LongWalk

Nice to hear from you.

Conrad is still gone.


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## Ceegee

Soca, if you don't mind me asking, what industry are you in?

How do the boys feel about their new stepfather? What do the boys say about him?

Sorry about the dog.


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