# Should there be opposite sex friends?



## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

It seems to me that opposite sex friends in a marriage usually ends up doing more harm than good. Unless it's a mutual friend I think this is something that spouses need to get a handle on and an understanding about. I know there's the point about work colleagues but my thoughts on that is there shouldn't be any single interaction. For example going to lunch together alone. Also, there's no reason for communication outside of work unless it's a critical work matter.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm sorry to say probably not unless they are friends of the couple.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

jealousy isn't healthy


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> jealousy isn't healthy


In this section, you would be wrong.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Yeah, they're only _just_ friends

But seriously, reading all these threads recently about husbands whose wives are turning lesbian because of some lady they met, makes me think same sex friends are just as bad 

In general though, people can be friends with whomever so long as they value their spouse and respect marital boundaries.

Easier said than done.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

It's just a needless temptation. There are millions of people in the world who swore they would NEVER cheat and would ALWAYS have boundaries, and then they cheated.

It's much more likely that your spouse will cheat with an accessible person rather than go to the trouble of going out alone to a pickup joint, or looking through the personals.


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## faithfulspouse (Jul 28, 2012)

It's not about having friends of the opposite sex, it's about respect for your marriage and as importantly respect for yourself. 

I have male friends whom I meet for lunch and spend time alone with but there is never any issues. I'm not attracted to them and there is no secrecy or deception in our friendships and my (and their) marriages come first. 

Imho.
x


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## ObjectOfAffection (Jul 12, 2012)

I have a lot of male friends - mostly due to my interests and choice of profession. I also grew up with 3 brothers, no sisters, which might have something to do with it. Most of my best friends are men, although I usually become friends with their wives/gf's too (even if it is more of a casual friendship with the women).

When I cheated though... it was not with one of my close male friends. It was with a guy who was more of an acquaintance. He'd occasionally hang out with my group of friends, but I didn't know him that well. Because we lived near each other, I let him drive me home one night after I had too many drinks to drive myself. We went from barely know to full blown affair in about 2 weeks.

Did I have an affair because I had too many close male friends? No.. I had an affair because when the opportunity presented itself, I chose to betray my husband in an attempt to escape my problems rather than face them.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

ObjectOfAffection said:


> I have a lot of male friends - mostly due to my interests and choice of profession. I also grew up with 3 brothers, no sisters, which might have something to do with it. Most of my best friends are men, although I usually become friends with their wives/gf's too (even if it is more of a casual friendship with the women).
> 
> When I cheated though... it was not with one of my close male friends. It was with a guy who was more of an acquaintance. He'd occasionally hang out with my group of friends, but I didn't know him that well. Because we lived near each other, I let him drive me home one night after I had too many drinks to drive myself. We went from barely know to full blown affair in about 2 weeks.
> 
> Did I have an affair because I had too many close male friends? No.. I had an affair because when the opportunity presented itself, I chose to betray my husband in an attempt to escape my problems rather than face them.



LOL. Threadjack alert!!

Object...being that you're the wayward spouse, you are sooo seriously triggering me with your screen name :rofl:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> jealousy isn't healthy


If there is reason to be jealous it is exceedingly healthy. 

It is like pain. Pain is very important to us. Without pain to warn us we would be in big trouble.

These things exist as part of evolution and survival.

So jealousy is like pain. It can be a warning. If you have pain all the time without reason that is bad. Same as with jealousy.

People who want to have extramarital interactions do not like jealousy. A guy wanting to hot on married women would hate jealousy for example.
Cheaters like to call people jealous, insecure and controlling.

On this thread topic though most folks are totally clueless about EAs.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

Jealous | What is the Definition of Jealous? | Dictionary.com
feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

I do have a male friend that I do go to lunch with maybe 2x a year. I have put up the boundaries from the beginning (we've been friends 20 years) if he disrespects those boundaries, he's disrespecting ME... He'd be gone in a second but so far that hasn't been a problem. My H knows him but chooses not go around him since he's alittle to much into his "feminine side" (not gay just talks about his feelings alot) and my H's not into that.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> Jealous | What is the Definition of Jealous? | Dictionary.com
> feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages


Then you are using this term in the wrong context.

You chose a definition for jealousy you liked but did not apply here.

What applies here relates to protecting relationships. 

Soooooo. Try Wikipedia and Sexual Jealousy. You will find information more pertinent to this thread. But when you find the information ... read it all the way through.

I have female freinds. I do not have close female friends. I do not spend time alone with them and or date them. I do not use the cover of saying they are like a sister to me. As this has been rehashed a thousand times, guys will invest time in women as friends they have sexual interest in.

Why not just stay single and date? Why get married if you want to hangout / date opposite sex friends? That is all emotional energy that could be going into the primary relationship.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> jealousy isn't healthy


Actually, jealousy is an emotion, and like all human emotions, it is neither good nor bad. You can't help how you feel. You can, however, control how you react to an emotion. It's the reaction that is healthy, or unhealthy.

Jealousy over one's life partner is a biologically driven phenomenon. 

Loss of the male partner meant that the woman with children had to fend for herself in the world with no male protector--go back a little ways in time and this meant risking death.

Loss of a female partner meant that a man could not be certain that his children weren't biologically his. So it would be a strain on the resources of the family if the man had to raise not only his own children, but also other children that an unfaithful wife brought into the family. Go back a little ways in time and this meant risking death.

Naturally, above a certain economic level, this is no longer true. But the instinctive reaction to one's life partner showing interest to a member of the opposite sex has a very real biological foundation.

Again, it's the _reaction_ to jealousy that is unhealthy--or healthy, as the case may be.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> *Irrational unbased paranoid* jealousy isn't healthy


There, i fixed it for you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

costa200 said:


> There, i fixed it for you.


Oh yes. That I agree with.


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## ShatteredinAL (Feb 5, 2012)

Unfortunately for my husband, not a chance.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Some married folks have commented about going out alone with members of the opposite sex. To me it's just not appropriate regardless of the intentions.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> Some married folks have commented about going out alone with members of the opposite sex. To me it's just not appropriate regardless of the intentions.


I agree. I don't like it and i would be verbal about it if i was put at that spot. Thankfully my partner understands what healthy boundaries are so this doesn't really come up. 

I find it interesting that some married people, mainly americans, seem to be ok with their partners doing this, even if they themselves started out exactly this way. What confuses me is, when do you call it a "date" and when you don't. If a man and a woman are going to meet for lunch for example, and they are not doing business or working in any way, how is this different from an official date?

Isn't it pretty obvious that problems can result from these situations?


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I've never had a male friend. It has never worked for me. It always comes to sex. I've tried so many times...I don't anymore. IMO people that do this are putting their marriages at risk. With the busy lives we must lead, it's hard enough to find time for your spouse!


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

costa200 said:


> I agree. I don't like it and i would be verbal about it if i was put at that spot. Thankfully my partner understands what healthy boundaries are so this doesn't really come up.
> 
> I find it interesting that some married people, mainly americans, seem to be ok with their partners doing this, even if they themselves started out exactly this way. What confuses me is, when do you call it a "date" and when you don't. If a man and a woman are going to meet for lunch for example, and they are not doing business or working in any way, how is this different from an official date?
> 
> Isn't it pretty obvious that problems can result from these situations?



I can see that point (because I do have a male friend) but I guess I don't consider it a date. To me a date isn't sitting across a table from another person talking about what we've been doing in our lives over the last 6-12 months. 

I only do this once or twice at most a year, my H always knows about it and invited to come along. I am 100% transparent with my H... 

Maybe it's just feels different because my uncle married his aunt and my H's aunt married his uncle?? So we talk about family and such even though we don't see eachother as cousins or anything. 

I do agree that it can go the wrong way without boundaries firmly set in place... But even at the worst of times with my H, I didn't see my friend more or any differently than I do now.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Before I could get divorced, I had to take a "class". It was about the best way to deal with your kids to make it less traumatic for them. I really do wish they would have a "class" to take before getting married explaining ways to keep your marriage on good terms and protected..then maybe less need for the "divorce class"....

People are so concerned or afraid of being called jealous or possessive, they don't stop and think about the hard cold reality...IMO


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovingsummer said:


> I can see that point (because I do have a male friend) but I guess I don't consider it a date. To me a date isn't sitting across a table from another person talking about what we've been doing in our lives over the last 6-12 months.
> 
> I only do this once or twice at most a year, my H always knows about it and invited to come along. I am 100% transparent with my H...
> 
> ...


I am not judging your situation. But a man and a woman sitting across one another sharing this kind of stuff sounds like a date to me. Maybe more clearly this would indeed be a date for me.

The thing is to just how you see the guy ... but how he sees you.

As someone who was in an EA I will tell you that this is very subtle stuff to those involved. But it can be very obvious to onlookers. Especially a spouse.

So again this may be working for you now but please be careful. The thing is it feels just fine. We bond with our friends. It gives us oxytocin. After all ... they are just a friend. For me the other person was just a friend ... until I went through withdrawal and realized I had gotten too close.

From another recent thread :



> I confronted her about it and she told me it was no big deal, it was just silly flirting and that she loved me. I know that she has been out with him for coffee and at least one dinner, but again she said it was just catching up on some old times.


The coffee and for sure the dinner were dates.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

For me it really depends. It's all about how each of us defines "date".
The Albanian concept about "date" is very vague and it mostly relies on *intentions* rather than the actions. 
Two opposite-sex people, sitting at a table laughing and talking about general stuff, having luchn/dinner are not neccessarily having a date. 
BUT if flirting comes along and their intentions are different and are about getting to know each other or their interests go beyond friendship then that's when it becomes a date - at least that what *I* consider a date.

But if I go out for a coffee with a male friend whom I haven't met in a very long time and we discuss about what's new in our lives then I don't consider it a date.

So it's all about intentions. And I agree with Complexity. As long as marital/relationship bounderies get respected then I see nothing wrong. 

On the other hand, If my partner would be bothered by the idea of me hanging out with a male friend then I would respect his wish and would try to avoid it.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

I agree lovelygirl... If my H ever said he didn't want me to.. I wouldn't go and the intentions thing.

It was actually this friend who told me if my marriage was ever not working, tell my H so he can try to fix it. As his wife just up and walked out on him shortly after he had major back surgery. He said that it's sad, lonely and heartbreaking to split up holidays, birthdays, etc. and not get to see your kids on those days. He said unless it's an absolute deal breaker (affairs, violence, abuse) then stay and give it your best.

It's really made me think.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> As his wife just up and walked out on him shortly after he had major back surgery.


Been hearing a lot of that kind of stuff lately. It used to be that when a spouse was down the other would suck it up temporarily just to not kick the person when she/he is down. Nowadays it seems many people have no qualms about making these situations into the final drop.

Selfish stuff IMO.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

Yea, I was shocked when he told me she walked out. She didn't hardly take anything (not even their daughter's baby pictures). He said that he couldn't even stand up long enough to cook for their 11 year old daughter. So sad.

Of course he could've been the biggest pr!ck in the world to her, we don't get into relationship stuff too much. But still, I would think she would at least stick around until he healed a little more.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

She left the daughter with a guy who couldn't even stand up to cook? That's priceless...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> For me it really depends. It's all about how each of us defines "date".
> *The Albanian concept about "date" is very vague and it mostly relies on intentions rather than the actions.
> Two opposite-sex people, sitting at a table laughing and talking about general stuff, having luchn/dinner are not neccessarily having a date.*
> BUT if flirting comes along and their intentions are different and are about getting to know each other or their interests go beyond friendship then that's what it becomes a date - at least that what *I* consider a date.
> ...


:iagree:

I have lots of female friends.They all know my wife , respect her and our marriage.
The word " date" is really a loose term here where I live. It all depends on the INTENT in my humble opinion.
Case in point;
In or business 90% of our clientele are female. Sometimes, depending on the size of the contract ,the location of the client,I will personally have to make reservations , provide transport and provide lunch for them when they arrive. Most times they can only stay for just one day & night.
My intent is not to get into their pants , its to get into their bank account.

I have had lunch " dates" ,coffee " dates " with many friends. But never with one person all the time.
I think that's where the trouble comes in.
But I think if people are honest with themselves ,they will know when boundaries are being crossed.
Always take your spouse's feelings into consideration.
My wife can be very open minded and trusting, so if she signals to me that she is not comfortable with that person X,then its only fair that I listen to her, and take heed.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> For me it really depends. It's all about how each of us defines "date".
> The Albanian concept about "date" is very vague and it mostly relies on *intentions* rather than the actions.
> Two opposite-sex people, sitting at a table laughing and talking about general stuff, having luchn/dinner are not neccessarily having a date.
> BUT if flirting comes along and their intentions are different and are about getting to know each other or their interests go beyond friendship then that's when it becomes a date - at least that what *I* consider a date.
> ...


But you are not married. And you can as a single person be with people and call it anything you want. But the other person may see it as a date.

How often we see people go out together as friends and over time it morphs into dating. The thing is the emotional connection is there. You are walking through the motions of a date. This is where feelings come from. EAs. Which is fine for single folks.

Now when you have folks who are married. Just these activities take on a different form. So how does the spouse know the intentions? Why is my spouse hanging out with ( dating ) another? Because whatever the intentions they are doing the dating ritual. The dance. The are connecting and bonding. 

I never ever ever intended to have inappropriate feelings for someone else. Most folks who fall into EAs have good intentions. It is just being friends. It is so subtle to the people involved but it becomes obvious to others. Yet this is the most common form of infidelity. It is so common most folks don't know it even exists. Its just close friendships.

Just the appearance of dating can be damaging to a marriage. It is at the least humliating to the spouse. Disrespectful. It looks to others like that person is available and raws attention from others. predators see this person as being vulnerable. Partly why some women claim to have many male friends. It is risky behavior. A gamble. 

I think when you are scheduling time to be alone with others it is a date. I am not counting professional settings but they have their dangers too. Intentions aside. It is one on one time. EAs are about feelings. Oxytocin. Friendship. Too many folks think they are only inappropriate when sexual conversation begins. How wrong they are. By that time there is a whole infrastructure of feelings and brain chemicals that has great momentum. The foundation for all to follow are in those innocent chats. 

Instigation, Isolation, Escalation ......

This said there is a whole range here. Like I said I have female friends. But I do not schedule time to be alone with them. One of us would have to instigate that. That would put us in isolation from our primary partners. Escalation is very likely. It may only be in the form of, hey we need to do this more often. Call me.

We also realize that logic does not always play in here. For some they just flat want this to be ok becuase they enjoy it so much.

Then the one where they had many male friends but when they cheated they did not choose from that pool but rather someone else. There affair was because of marriage problem. And that is suppose dto prove that haveing male friend sis ok? Maybe having to have a lot of close male friends is a symptom of issues in the marriage.

Anyway if I wanted to do such things I could in no way justify the time. It would be time taken away from my family. Sure people have hobbies which are good. But is hanging out alone with opposite sex friends a good hobby? For some it is the only hobby worth doing it seems.

All in alll marriages have some degree of openess. From what we think in terms of as an open marriage all the way to complete isolation. Those two extremes are gruesome indeed. Many choose to draw the line at having alone one on one time with opposite sex friends boundary. That leaves a lot of openess without taking on the big risks. It is also more readily transaprent which is key.

But the cost to a marriage is not just an affair going to a PA or for that matter never ending. It is subjective of whether or not the firendship dtracts from the marriage. So the pros must be weighed against this. This is very hard to see unless you really examine it. Having friends is good. But it is possible to have friendships that on balance cause a spouse to be less satisfied in their marriage or in general detract from the marriage. This can happen even with same sex friends.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

Well most people have varying levels of self control and some people have none at all.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> Well most people have varying levels of self control and some people have none at all.


Can't disagree with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> Well most people have varying levels of self control and some people have none at all.


And it has little to do with this actually. It has to do with addiction.

This is like saying I can handle cocain because I have great self control. I am only going to do it a little bit.

I can play just the tip because I have good self control.

EAs have nothing to do with self control other than perhaps the trigger point where it turns into a PA. The damage is done way before that. How about having the self control to not put oneself in a risky situation to begin with. That is self control. If you just simply must have close opposite sex friends with alone one on one time how much self control do you have?

A requirement of an EA is to feel that one is immune to it. That one has too much character and self control. These are the folks who fall into EAs becuase they are either too naive or selfish to understand what they are playing with.

Claiming friendships is great plauseble deniability. Often folks try to convince themselves its all ok because my intention is for this to be a friendship. I can certainly be strong enough to spend an evening alone with my friend while my spouse is on the business trip. We will just have some wine, chat and watch a movie together. If I get too drunk I will do the safe thing and sleep on the couch. Yeah that is extreme but why not? It is just about intentions?

The most important thing is for the boundaries to be very clear. Shooting from the hip by going by feelings and spur of the moment thinking is no defense at all.

This is why many choose to draw the line at alone time.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

The irony, of course, is that when it comes to these things, people are not very good judges of their own self control.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

lovingsummer said:


> I do have a male friend that I do go to lunch with maybe 2x a year. I have put up the boundaries from the beginning (we've been friends 20 years) if he disrespects those boundaries, he's disrespecting ME... He'd be gone in a second but so far that hasn't been a problem. My H knows him but chooses not go around him since he's alittle to much into his "feminine side" (not gay just talks about his feelings alot) and my H's not into that.


Are you my wife, like 2 years ago?

My W had a very close 20 year friendship with a single man and fell in love with him when our marriage wasn't going well. She saw him about twice a year as a friend. And I didn't choose to be around the guy much even though we were sort of friends too. 

Yeah, that didn't work out so well.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> But you are not married. And you can as a single person be with people and call it anything you want. But the other person may see it as a date.


I don't have to be married to define the word "date". 
I can as well be in a relationship and still I could tell the difference between a "date" and a "hang out with friend".



> How often we see people go out together as friends and over time it morphs into dating.


1. Not all people are the same.
2. Not all people can get easily attached to the people of the opposite sex.
3. Not all those opposite sex people who hang out develop EAs or PAs.
4. Not every opposite sex friendship morphs into dating.



> Because whatever the intentions they are doing the dating ritual. The dance. The are connecting and bonding.


The dance?
Not every hang out with friends follows a dating ritual.
I have never danced with any guy friend while in a relationship with someone else.




> I never ever ever intended to have inappropriate feelings for someone else. Most folks who fall into EAs have good intentions.


Ent, just because you have developed EA easily, doesn't mean everyone will.



> Just the appearance of dating is damaging to a marriage. It is at the least humliating to the spouse. Disrespectful. It looks to others like that person is available and raws attention from others. predators see this person as being vulnerable. Partly why some women claim to have many male friends. It is risky behavior. A gamble.


I agree, dating is damaging to the marriage.
The problem with you is that you call everything a 'date'.
You make it so black and white that it goes beyond reality.



> But I do not schedule time to be alone with them.


That's because you easily get attached to your female friends?
Just because you don't schedule alone time with them doesn't mean others can't and when they can, doesn't mean they will develop EA just like you might.



> But is hanging out alone with opposite sex friends a good hobby?


Again, it depends the time, place, reason and so on.
_Having a drink _for an hour with an opposite sex friend is not the same as_ going over to their appartment _to have a wine or stay there for the rest of day and night.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

I have a very close male friend - we have been good friends for over 20 years. I knew him and was friends with him long before I met my husband. He is now a friend of both me and my husband - he stood up in our wedding (on the girls side! no, he didn't wear a dress.)


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## ObjectOfAffection (Jul 12, 2012)

Hypothetical question for those that think opposite sex friendships are always damaging to a marriage. If I was bisexual, and had been romantically involved with both men and women in the past, does that mean I should avoid ever having any close friendships outside of the person I'm married to?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

ObjectOfAffection said:


> Hypothetical question for those that think opposite sex friendships are always damaging to a marriage. If I was bisexual, and had been romantically involved with both men and women in the past, does that mean I should avoid ever having any close friendships outside of the person I'm married to?


This isn't congruent. A heterosexual person has half the world to be friends with, while still avoiding opposite sex friendships. A bisexual person doesn't. If you marry a bisexual, you have to understand this ahead of time.

Also, I think it's fine if one has an opposite sex friend ONLY if that friend is a friend of the couple virtually equally, AND there is no physical attraction.

The problems occur when the opposite sex friend is a friend mostly in isolation, and there is one-on-one time going on.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Are you my wife, like 2 years ago?
> 
> My W had a very close 20 year friendship with a single man and fell in love with him when our marriage wasn't going well. She saw him about twice a year as a friend. And I didn't choose to be around the guy much even though we were sort of friends too.
> 
> Yeah, that didn't work out so well.



That sucks  This man is single now but I couldn't see myself being with someone like him. He is just all sorts of wrong in the head. I don't agree with his lifestyle AT ALL and there's no way I would expose my kids to that or deal with it. So we are just more distant friends that catch up once in a while.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> I don't have to be married to define the word "date".
> I can as well be in a relationship and still I could tell the difference between a "date" and a "hang out with friend".
> 
> 
> ...


EAs are pervasive. Whether they end in a full blown PA or fizzle out that drain a marriage and hurt husband, wife and children. EAs happen with friends. 

Not all people who take cocaine die from a drug addiction.

Not all people who play russian roulette blow their heads off.

Not all children who play in the street get run over.

Not all people who have sex have children.

You have no idea how easy or not easy it was for me to fall into an EA. I am not only going by my personal experience. Though it may indeed give me better insight. It certainly gives me an understanding of the thought process of "just friends". I have seen what happens with those in my lifetime. 

Not everyone who drives drunk gets caught by the police or for that matter get into a fatal accident.

It comes down to the risks versus value.

What is an acceptable EA rate? 1 chance in 100. A chance in ten? 50 / 50?

Friendships are emotional bonds. Peoples judgement is altered by this. Everyone feels they are special. Immune. 

Some folks have to personally experience the issue to get it.

As we have discussed in the past you have not yet married. Your view of opposite sex friendships is likely to change down the road. 

Try to imagine that you have been married for 10+ years, have a couple of kids, been through good times and bad times with your spouse. You are totally comitted to them emotionally and financially. You are paying for a home together. Maybe your spouse is working long hours for the family to pay for medical bills and that home and vacations and so on. Not saying that you do not do your share. Just setting up an example. A commone example. For one spouse or the other to develop close personal opposite sex relationships is risking much more. Just the appearance of a more than friends relationship can cause marital problems. We see these guys putting VARs in cars and counting texts. Again it is emptional energy invested into another person not your spouse. Just different levels by that time. It is not the same as having a BF / GF, even in an LTR. The damage is just not having sex. It is emotional. Is it worth the risk? Marriages already have enough challenges.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> This isn't congruent. A heterosexual person has half the world to be friends with, while still avoiding opposite sex friendships. A bisexual person doesn't. If you marry a bisexual, you have to understand this ahead of time.
> 
> Also, I think it's fine if one has an opposite sex friend ONLY if that friend is a friend of the couple virtually equally, AND there is no physical attraction.
> 
> The problems occur when the opposite sex friend is a friend mostly in isolation, and there is one-on-one time going on.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovingsummer said:


> That sucks  This man is single now but I couldn't see myself being with someone like him. He is just all sorts of wrong in the head. I don't agree with his lifestyle AT ALL and there's no way I would expose my kids to that or deal with it. So we are just more distant friends that catch up once in a while.


So you catch up with this old friend twice a year for some one one one time and you do not like his lifestyle to the point you would not expose your children to it.

Your hubby is ok with you meeting up with this guy?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

lovingsummer said:


> That sucks  This man is single now but I couldn't see myself being with someone like him. He is just all sorts of wrong in the head. I don't agree with his lifestyle AT ALL and there's no way I would expose my kids to that or deal with it. So we are just more distant friends that catch up once in a while.


Distant friends is a completely different situation.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

I have offered to have no contact if he wishes and he said no, but I don't want to go either. I've had lunch with him maybe 10 times in 20 years since we lost contact for about 10 years. 

I don't expose my children to him because he drinks quite alot, is currently addicted to pain killers from back surgery, smokes pot, lately experimenting with crack and the hookers that go along with it. So no, I don't bring my children around him.

I do realize how fast EA's can happen and I'm very aware of my boundaries. Nor will I be around him if he's high, I've walked out of the restaurant before and left him sitting there.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovingsummer said:


> I have offered to have no contact if he wishes and he said no, but I don't want to go either. I've had lunch with him maybe 10 times in 20 years since we lost contact for about 10 years.
> 
> I don't expose my children to him because he drinks quite alot, is currently addicted to pain killers from back surgery, smokes pot, lately experimenting with crack and the hookers that go along with it. So no, I don't bring my children around him.
> 
> I do realize how fast EA's can happen and I'm very aware of my boundaries. Nor will I be around him if he's high, I've walked out of the restaurant before and left him sitting there.


You know what? I respect you. You were nice enough to just flat answer the question and not be offended for me asking. Thank you.

I think that you have provided an example of what the thread was about. The topic is a very broad one for sure. It is not one that really has a yes or no answer. It also means very different things to different people.

You must have a very good reason to catch up with this man to accomodate him in this way. Hope you do not mind me saying be careful.

Oh and I love your avatar.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't mind at all, I know it's a touchy thing and I've discussed it at length with my H. I'm 100% transparent with him. Even on my H's worst day after 20 years, I haven't met anyone who is worth losing him for (or breaking up my family for that matter). But I'm very aware on how easily it can happen.. Thank you for the warning too  

My avatar is something that I'm learning to deal with recently as I have been "2x4ed" by TAM... :smthumbup:


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

This is a complicated matter but i would say that women usually totally misjudge men about this. A guy that seeks contact with a woman he finds attractive isn't looking for platonic connections. He may not even act on it at one time but he keeps his options open. 

Someone mentioned self-control. Thing is, most affairs aren't planned from the get go. They evolve over time because people open doors to them. 

Someone who often meets members of the opposite sex in situations of 1 on 1 is opening a can of worms.



> Hypothetical question for those that think opposite sex friendships are always damaging to a marriage. If I was bisexual, and had been romantically involved with both men and women in the past, does that mean I should avoid ever having any close friendships outside of the person I'm married to?


Of course. Given that the hypothetical you bangs everything that moves then you really can't really trust yourself with either sex.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I can't think of one reason why a married person should have an opposite sex friend. Not one single reason.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Some folks have to personally experience the issue to get it.


My EX had a female friend who's married. They have been friends for many years, even before I got in a relationship with him.
Her husband didn't have a problem with her going out with my (then) BF. I didn't seem to have a problem either because they used to meet _very_ rarely. They would actually invite me over to go out with them but most of the times I refused. I thought they needed alone time as friends.

Just like I used to go out with my guy friend when I was in this relationship. 
Me and my ex didn't really have problem with our respective opposite sex friends (OSF) because we respected the bounderies of our (then) relationship.

Again, I'm not saying marriage is the same as a LTR. No way.
That's where we agree.



> As we have discussed in the past you have not yet married. Your view of opposite sex friendships is likely to change down the road.


I agree. I'm not married yet and I have to learn a lot of things but I think you have missunderstood me somehow.
You talk about energy invested into another person who's not the partner/spouse.
What energy do you invest into the other person when you meet him/her once a year? For only 2 hours? 
[Sure, Gabriel's wife used to meet her OSF this rarely but not everyone will experience what she experienced.]

I'm not talking about meeting your OSF everyday, every week or every month. No way. 
I'm talking about meeting them rarely - maybe once or twice a year. 
To me, that's not invested energy. *Because if we talk about invested energy, we could say the same thing about our same-sex friends (SSF). *I go out with my girl-friends very often and I would still go out with them even if I was married [obviously not as often]. But it's still invested energy, more energy than I would invest in my OSF.
*Then why don't we say the same thing about our SSF? Don't we invest a lot of energy on them? *

On the other hand, I repeat. If my partner/husband had a problem with my OSF, I would definitely try to avoid the latter ad I've done in the past. My ex didn't want me to hang around with a guy who I think had a crush on me back then. My Ex was right and I avoided the guy immediately because at the time, my (then) relationship was more important and it was the right thing to do.

But, if my partner/husband had no problem with my OSF and he would respect my relationship/marriage then I see no reason why I should avoid him.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

costa200 said:


> This is a complicated matter but i would say that women usually totally misjudge men about this. *A guy that seeks contact with a woman he finds attractive isn't looking for platonic connections. He may not even act on it at one time but he keeps his options open. *
> 
> Someone mentioned self-control. Thing is, most affairs aren't planned from the get go. They evolve over time because people open doors to them.
> 
> Someone who often meets members of the opposite sex in situations of 1 on 1 is opening a can of worms.


I don't know if this statement is 100% true in every case.
I can speak for myself.
If I'm flying and a woman who I find attractive sits next to me ,I will initiate conversation with her,sometimes even if she isn't all that attractive.We may speak for the entire trip ,or we may just exchange pleasantries. The reverse is also true,sometimes they may start a conversation with me before I can say hello.
When I am at the mall and I need to eat because I'm hungry,I sometimes go to the food court. Sometimes its so crowded that there are few empty tables. If I have two options, sit with a man and eat,or sit with a female,whether attractive or not ,I WILL choose to sit with the female. And I will start a conversation with her 100% of the times. I am not looking for a phone# or email or anything like that.
*I am not interested in sex with them nor even platonic connections.*
I am past that stage , my sexual urges does not control me to that point.
I can admire without having any " burning " sexual desire.
I naturally like to meet people. 99% of the times I may never meet them again.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> My EX had a female friend who's married. They have been friends for many years, even before I got in a relationship with him.
> Her husband didn't have a problem with her going out with my (then) BF. I didn't seem to have a problem either because they used to meet _very_ rarely. They would actually invite me over to go out with them but most of the times I refused. I thought they needed alone time as friends.
> 
> Just like I used to go out with my guy friend when I was in this relationship.
> ...


Somewhere in my ramblings I suggested that friends period no matter what sex have to be evaluated for their net impact on us and out relationship. Things in life ebb and flow so it has to be looked at over a period of time.

I think you are a very smart person with a good spirit. I have no doubt that when you are in a longer term marriage that you will make all appropriate adjustments.

Frequency matters big time. There are many variables to weigh in on here. I believe EXs are staright out of bounds even once a decade.

For the most part you and I kibitzing at all is the proverbial preaching to the choir.

My agenda and I do admit to one is that folks just look at their friendships and realize that they can be both positve and negative, even at the same time. They should look at them on balance. Friendships are important in ones life. More so to some than others. AND it morphs over time. 

My comments are more pointed to those that have very initimate friendships. Where whether they see it or not they confide too much to opposite sex friends and are effectively datig whether they see it this way or not.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I don't know if this statement is 100% true in every case.
> I can speak for myself.
> If I'm flying and a woman who I find attractive sits next to me ,I will initiate conversation with her,sometimes even if she isn't all that attractive.We may speak for the entire trip ,or we may just exchange pleasantries. The reverse is also true,sometimes they may start a conversation with me before I can say hello.
> When I am at the mall and I need to eat because I'm hungry,I sometimes go to the food court. Sometimes its so crowded that there are few empty tables. If I have two options, sit with a man and eat,or sit with a female,whether attractive or not ,I WILL choose to sit with the female. And I will start a conversation with her 100% of the times. I am not looking for a phone# or email or anything like that.
> ...


Dude, you're just being civilized. When i say "seek contact" with a woman i mean wanting something out of it, not just engaging in civilized chit chat. You're not trying to create a relationship there, you're just being polite.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Dude, you're just being civilized. When i say "seek contact" with a woman i mean wanting something out of it, not just engaging in civilized chit chat. You're not trying to create a relationship there, you're just being polite.


Ok then,
Thanks for clearing that up!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> My comments are more pointed to those that have very initimate friendships. Where whether they see it or not they confide too much to opposite sex friends and are effectively datig whether they see it this way or not.


I agree. _Intimate_ friendships with OSF are NEVER healthy for the relationship/marriage. 
That's when _wasting time_ and _investing too much energy_ in these _risky _friendships would come into play.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> Personally, I'd never go out for coffee/dinner/lunch alone with another man. What would he think? That he had a chance...


Can't let that go by.
Dumb and Dumber 'There's a Chance' - YouTube


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Somewhere in my ramblings I suggested that friends period no matter what sex have to be evaluated for their net impact on us and out relationship. Things in life ebb and flow so it has to be looked at over a period of time.
> 
> I think you are a very smart person with a good spirit. I have no doubt that when you are in a longer term marriage that you will make all appropriate adjustments.
> 
> ...


Frequency is important for sure. There was a point, maybe 2 years before my wife's EA with her OSF (good acronym), where this frequency started to increase a bit. It was usually twice a year, period. Then at that time it was about to be 4 times one year and I called her out on it. She respectfully cancelled the next planned get together and backed off. 

I think we also have to consider the other stuff, the texting, calls, etc. If you are only physically seeing your friend twice a year, and there isn't much in the way of calls/emails/texts, then it's not that big a deal. But if you are weekly/daily messaging or talking, AND then meeting twice a year, that's more of a problem.

My W's OSF was her friend before I met her also. IMO, those are the hardest situations to deal with, because you, as the "new" spouse, don't feel you have the authority to eradicate something that was there before you.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Somewhere in my ramblings I suggested that friends period no matter what sex have to be evaluated for their net impact on us and out relationship. Things in life ebb and flow so it has to be looked at over a period of time.


Exactly right! The real thing to remember is that your choice of friendships (same or opposite sex) effects your marriage. Steps must be taken to evaluate the impact and for each boundaries must be in place to prevent them from becoming bad for the marriage.



Entropy3000 said:


> Frequency matters big time. There are many variables to weigh in on here. I believe EXs are staright out of bounds even once a decade.


Yes, exes should be kept out of the equation because of the previous strong emotional ties. There are still neural connections left from the previous relationship that doesn't take much to get going again. Too risky in my mind.



Entropy3000 said:


> My agenda and I do admit to one is that folks just look at their friendships and realize that they can be both positve and negative, even at the same time. They should look at them on balance. Friendships are important in ones life. More so to some than others. AND it morphs over time.





Entropy3000 said:


> My comments are more pointed to those that have very initimate friendships. Where whether they see it or not they confide too much to opposite sex friends and are effectively datig whether they see it this way or not.


Too much intimacy with friends that surpases that of your spouse is bad. It shouldn't even be close. There should be boundaries in place to prevent certain topics like marriage problems and discontent with the spouse. 

But I don't see how very intimate friendships are effectively dating. While emotional investing and escalation is an integral part in dating it also requires the desire and intent to form a couple. The continual escalation of intimacy could be effectively dating and perhaps that's what you mean. 

But if there is a limit in place, a boundary, to which the intimacy never goes beyond then that intimacy isn't really dating in my mind. This then help prevents the mind from becoming addicted to that form of intimacy. I think this is the major boundary that is crossed that leads an EA. If you are continually escalating you are not in control and your friendship is growning into a threat to the marriage.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I try to keep an open mind about these things. I think it's possible but only at arms' length.

I will definitely be keeping an eye on the women who only call my partner's cell phone; only e-mail him on his e-mail address and not on the joint one' who only issues invitations directly to him.....you get the picture......

She will be frozen out.

I am here also due to bitter experience. In my failed marriage I had this problem not only with women I met through my husband but also with women whom I met on my own. Lots of women out there who are bent on stepping over the wife and securing a "friendship" with the man in some kind of way.

And I have learned that the wife needs to be careful because these relationships can develop very quickly and the husband, sadly, trying to be everybody's friend, will say "but I couldn't be rude" no matter what disadvantage he may be putting his partner and family to.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> I am here also due to bitter experience. In my failed marriage I had this problem not only with women I met through my husband but also with women whom I met on my own. Lots of women out there who are bent on stepping over the wife and securing a "friendship" with the man in some kind of way.


Yeah, the "he cheated on me with my friend" is an all time classic. And it has it's own biological particularities. Whenever you demonstrate affection and respect for your husband in front of other women his worth to them rises. 

How interesting it is, from the anthropological point of view, that a woman expressing love and respect for her husband may indeed be favoring drive by hits on him by her female "friends".


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> I try to keep an open mind about these things. I think it's possible but only at arms' length.
> 
> I will definitely be keeping an eye on the women who only call my partner's cell phone; only e-mail him on his e-mail address and not on the joint one' who only issues invitations directly to him.....you get the picture......
> 
> ...


IMHO, these women have no interest in being your husband's 'friend'. They see a good man (or what they percieve to be one) and want him for themselves. I've seen this countless times...countless! 

Guess what? A truly GOOD man will be 'rude' to the woman and knock her back. But that's just my humble and honest opinion...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Just the appearance of a more than friends relationship can cause marital problems.


ITA. 

And generally, when the "appearance" of said friendship is causing one's spouse/partner to wonder, then that means it's seeming off/weird enough to cause one partner to be uncomfortable which is not a good thing. 

Have you ever had an inkling about something and been spot on? 

It's one of those things. 

What do you think of exes who are best friends but one or both of them are married?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

meson said:


> Exactly right! The real thing to remember is that your choice of friendships (same or opposite sex) effects your marriage. Steps must be taken to evaluate the impact and for each boundaries must be in place to prevent them from becoming bad for the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think if one is spending one on one time and doing activities that are what folks do when dating, I see it as a dating ritual. No matter the intention. How can one tell? How can ones spouse tell the difference? I think it morphs. One should be dating their own spouse. Going to dinner. movies oput for frinks hanging out over the others house alone is dating IMO. We date freinds and they become lovers. This is the norm. It does not have to 100% of the time to have a risk. I think 1 chance in ten is incredibly risky and uncalled for.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

costa200 said:


> Yeah, the "he cheated on me with my friend" is an all time classic. And it has it's own biological particularities. Whenever you demonstrate affection and respect for your husband in front of other women his worth to them rises.
> 
> How interesting it is, from the anthropological point of view, that a woman expressing love and respect for her husband may indeed be favoring drive by hits on him by her female "friends".


This is true.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> ITA.
> 
> And generally, when the "appearance" of said friendship is causing one's spouse/partner to wonder, then that means it's seeming off/weird enough to cause one partner to be uncomfortable which is not a good thing.
> 
> ...


I will make a more general statement. If your spouse is not your best opposite sex friend you have a major problem brewing that eventually is going to if not destroy your marriage it will greatly detract from it.

I see long term marriages as being long term friendships. 

My priorities :

1) My wife is my exclusive lover

2) She is my best female friend by a quantum amount or more. It is at a special level by itself.

3) She is my wife

The thing is that #1 is there to put a stake in the ground that I will not become just her roomate and or friend. #1 has to be true. IMO, #2 as well.

Now to me the only reason to be in contact with an EX at all is if there are children involved. It can be amicable but I do not think this warrants any kind of friendship beyond this. Best friends. NFW. I see that as an open marriage.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I will make a more general statement. If your spouse is not your best opposite sex friend you have a major problem brewing that eventually is going to if not destroy your marriage it will greatly detract from it.
> 
> Best friends. NFW. I see that as an open marriage.


I agree with this assessment. 

I recently came upon a situation like this and find it very strange. For all of the reasons you mentioned. The ex was saying how the spouse and the ex themself were "both" the married's bff. I just thought, huh? Especially when they hang out frequently and grab lunch and go shopping together. The ex admitted that 1 of his relationships had ended because his partner "couldn't deal with it" (his being bff's with his ex) and the married's spouse also made some odd comments.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> ITA.
> 
> And generally, when the "appearance" of said friendship is causing one's spouse/partner to wonder, then that means it's seeming off/weird enough to cause one partner to be uncomfortable which is not a good thing.
> 
> ...


You couldn't be more right. Reminds me of my husband, and his friend he used to blab on and on about, but he would never tell me the truth about her. They were ex-lovers. Why did he leave that little tid bit out? Because he knew on some level, at least, that I wouldn't be cool with the friendship. So he lied. And things got so much more uncool after that...sigh.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> ITA.
> 
> And generally, when the "appearance" of said friendship is causing one's spouse/partner to wonder, then that means it's seeming off/weird enough to cause one partner to be uncomfortable which is not a good thing.
> 
> ...


The appearance. Don't get me started. There were a couple of my acquaintences that looked at me sideways when I said, "yeah, W is with her friend, X (unmarried male) for the day. They see each other a couple of times a year. They go way back, before I even knew W."

Most people didn't outwardly bat an eye when I would explain this, but a few were like, "Hmmm, okay. Don't know if I could do that."


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel, did your wife hook up with him? And what did you say when your friends/acquaintanes made those comment?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Also, on the flip of this I wanted to share this story: When my exH and I were dating, one of my guy friends from school days had posted on my Myspace (haha a thousand years ago) that he was coming into town and how "we should all get together" for drinks. So I told Mr. Ex-Jelly and my ex was not happy about this and said he would not go, that he found it odd this guy was inviting me/us out and I thought he just sounded really jealous. 

When exH and I divorced, this guy friend found out and started sending me very flirty messages, which took me by surprise, because it's something he'd never done before and I'd known him for a LONG time, much longer than my ex. I thought "Where the f is this coming from?" So Mr. Ex Jelly's thoughts must not have picked up on something. 

It's interesting the things your spouse/partner will pick up on that you have may no be clued into.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Also, on the flip of this I wanted to share this story: When my exH and I were dating, one of my guy friends from school days had posted on my Myspace (haha a thousand years ago) that he was coming into town and how "we should all get together" for drinks. So I told Mr. Ex-Jelly and my ex was not happy about this and said he would not go, that he found it odd this guy was inviting me/us out and I thought he just sounded really jealous.
> 
> When exH and I divorced, this guy friend found out and started sending me very flirty messages, which took me by surprise, because it's something he'd never done before and I'd known him for a LONG time, much longer than my ex. I thought "Where the f is this coming from?" So Mr. Ex Jelly's thoughts must not have picked up on something.
> 
> It's interesting the things your spouse/partner will pick up on that you have may no be clued into.


There, you see? He was right!

Something else that has happened to me, is that when I would break up with someone, all of a sudden, their friends are interested...suggesting coffee dates, drinks, etc...makes you kind of wonder what they were thinking when you were with their friend! Opportunists, the lot of em!


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> The appearance. Don't get me started. *There were a couple of my acquaintences that looked at me sideways* when I said, "yeah, W is with her friend, X (unmarried male) for the day. They see each other a couple of times a year. They go way back, before I even knew W."
> 
> Most people didn't outwardly bat an eye when I would explain this, but a few were like, "Hmmm, okay. Don't know if I could do that."


I would do that. If you were a close buddy of mine i would even do more than that. I would probably smack you on the head and say something along the lines of "Are you listening to yourself in there buddy?!"


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> You couldn't be more right. Reminds me of my husband, and his friend he used to blab on and on about, but he would never tell me the truth about her. They were ex-lovers. Why did he leave that little tid bit out? Because he knew on some level, at least, that I wouldn't be cool with the friendship. So he lied. And things got so much more uncool after that...sigh.


Oh gosh I know that had to be annoying as heck. No woman wants to hear their SO blab on and on about their opposite sex friend. And that is a FACT.



CandieGirl said:


> There, you see? He was right!


Yes, he was. In fact, when it happened I thought, Oh sh*t...he was right.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Gabriel, did your wife hook up with him? And what did you say when your friends/acquaintanes made those comment?


As you likely know, this OSF turned into the OM. However, they did not go PA. 100% confident. The EA actually was only a few weeks long, at the very end. I caught it in May 2011, the damning email exchange I saw was dated 2 weeks prior. And the phone calls, etc, didn't blow up until that April (I found out later). 

When I got those comments, I just repeated that they went way back, never dated, that I was actually friends with the guy too (although much less than her). 

He lives about 90 minutes from us, but in the same metro area. She would drive over there, then get in his car, and drive around to visit his parents, siblings and a couple of friends from back in college (where they met), who all lived near them. They were rarely alone, actually. The OM lives in a dump, not suitable for company (although he could easily afford a nicer place - just likes to save the money).

When he took his turn to come to our place, he would come in, we would all chitchat for awhile, then the two of them would go get dinner and/or go to a pub and drink/catch up. Since we have kids, she went to his area more than he came to ours.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> As you likely know, this OSF turned into the OM. However, they did not go PA. 100% confident. The EA actually was only a few weeks long, at the very end. I caught it in May 2011, the damning email exchange I saw was dated 2 weeks prior. And the phone calls, etc, didn't blow up until that April (I found out later).
> 
> When I got those comments, I just repeated that they went way back, never dated, that I was actually friends with the guy too (although much less than her).
> 
> ...


Whoah! I didn't know it was *THAT* close. He was practically dating her in front of you.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

costa200 said:


> I would do that. If you were a close buddy of mine i would even do more than that. I would probably smack you on the head and say something along the lines of "Are you listening to yourself in there buddy?!"


Yeah, that makes sense. What was weird is 80-90% of my friends actually thought it was no big deal, that they would be fine with it. So of course, when I got squirrely about it I thought it was probably irrational of me.

I got to know the dude while I was dating my W, and we got along well. I thought he was really strange, but a good guy, and not my wife's type at all. He attended our wedding. Then about 1 year later we lost touch with him for about 5-6 years. Completely gone. Then he called our house out of the blue to reconnect. He did this because one of his and my W's mutual friends almost died.

Their friendship restarted at that point, and he even visited us out of state and stayed with us for a few days when we moved away for awhile. When we moved back, it just was their normal 2 times/year visits.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> When he took his turn to come to our place, he would come in, we would all chitchat for awhile, *then the two of them would go get dinner and/or go to a pub and drink/catch up*. Since we have kids, *she went to his area more than he came to ours*.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Whoah! I didn't know it was *THAT* close. He was practically dating her in front of you.


Twice a year didn't feel like that. I attributed her knowing his family, etc, to how long they had been friends (since 18 years old - the EA didn't happen until age 40). And yes, they were VERY good friends, and in that case it's virtually impossible to demand they stop being friends just because she and I went from dating to engaged to married. I knew him through all the stages. 

This is clearly a challenge to true R because I know she will always think fondly of him. She claims she misses him as a friend only, and nothing more. They haven't seen each other since DDay, obviously (may 2011), and they do not correspond. They do have a couple of mutual friends, all on FB, so I know they both comment on the same wall, etc, but no direct communication.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Twice a year didn't feel like that. I attributed her knowing his family, etc, to how long they had been friends (since 18 years old - the EA didn't happen until age 40). And yes, they were VERY good friends, and *in that case it's virtually impossible to demand they stop being friends just because she and I went from dating to engaged to married. I knew him through all the stages. *


Yeah that does make it difficult.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I think if one is spending one on one time and doing activities that are what folks do when dating, I see it as a dating ritual. No matter the intention. How can one tell? How can ones spouse tell the difference? I think it morphs. One should be dating their own spouse. Going to dinner. movies oput for frinks hanging out over the others house alone is dating IMO. We date freinds and they become lovers. This is the norm. It does not have to 100% of the time to have a risk. I think 1 chance in ten is incredibly risky and uncalled for.


By this standard when I go out with a same sex friend to dinner and a movie then I am "dating". I don't buy it because I am not looking to hook up with them. In the same way I'm not looking to hook up with OSF either. For some people who only view women as potential hookups you would be correct. But this is certainly not true for me and many others.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

meson said:


> By this standard when I go out with a same sex friend to dinner and a movie then I am "dating".


It'd be seen that way if you were gay/lesbian. 

In this case we're discussing heteros and male/female OSF. 

When married, do you make a habit of going to the movies with OSF and your spouse is ok with it? (if you are hetero)?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Reminds me of the movie The Switch, with Jason Bateman and Jennifer Aniston.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> It's interesting the things your spouse/partner will pick up on that you have may no be clued into.


:iagree::iagree:

Yes, this is why it's really important that you are in tune with you spouse and respect any gut feelings they might have. Even if they don't explicitly mention them. Too often people think their spouse is controlling when they really know you better than you think. I don't want to do things that make my wife feel insecure about our relationship.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Reminds me of the movie The Switch, with Jason Bateman and Jennifer Aniston.


I love that movie.



meson said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Yes, this is why it's really important that you are in tune with you spouse and respect any gut feelings they might have. Even if they don't explicitly mention them. Too often people think their spouse is controlling when they really know you better than you think. I don't want to do things that make my wife feel insecure about our relationship.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

meson said:


> By this standard when I go out with a same sex friend to dinner and a movie then I am "dating". I don't buy it because I am not looking to hook up with them. In the same way I'm not looking to hook up with OSF either. For some people who only view women as potential hookups you would be correct. But this is certainly not true for me and many others.


Maybe you ARE dating...have you asked the other party what it is, exactly, that they think you are doing? Maybe to them, this IS a date...or they're grooming you to one day be one.

For the record, I too, have had male friends that were JUST friends. Or so I thought. They'd always ruin the 'friendship' by trying it on. There was only one who didn't. He took the secret to his grave, that he was secretly in love with me. I found out at the wake, and it devastated me for years.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> It'd be seen that way if you were gay/lesbian.
> 
> In this case we're discussing heteros and male/female OSF.
> 
> When married, do you make a habit of going to the movies with OSF and your spouse is ok with it? (if you are hetero)?


For me the sexual inclination shouldn't matter. The same boundaries should apply in either case. If it's activities that I would do with any of my male friends my wife is fine with it. She has let me go on weekend climbing trips with females that she feels comfortable with.

Movies and dinners I really don't regularly do with OSF. My wife gets the majority of the movie time and the movies she isn't really interested in I watch with SSF that I don't do other things with.

One of the boundaries my wife set with me with one particular OSF was that I limit the amount of family news I mention. I was trumping the time my wife spent connecting with her friend and she let me know about it. So I listened and the situation improved. THis is not one of the standard boundaries but yet it was important to my wife. I show respect to my wife by respecting her boundary. 

Its not about friend gender absolutes, its about the boundaries and feelings of your spouse with particular people of either gender.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> As you likely know, this OSF turned into the OM. However, they did not go PA. 100% confident. The EA actually was only a few weeks long, at the very end. I caught it in May 2011, the damning email exchange I saw was dated 2 weeks prior. And the phone calls, etc, didn't blow up until that April (I found out later).
> 
> When I got those comments, I just repeated that they went way back, never dated, that I was actually friends with the guy too (although much less than her).
> 
> ...


OMG there is no way I would be ok with any of that.

I can't imagine me being ok with my wife leaving to spend the day with any man not her direct relative.

Maybe a real estate person but guess what? I would be going along too if I could. 

I would be fearful for my safety if I even suggested such a thing to my wife for me to do.

Last night I was signing up for my JavaONE sessions. I swa one that said something like women in Java today. I told my wife I was signing up for this. She laughed and said matter of factly ... ummm no your'e not.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You could imagine that your husband or wife will have sex with everyone else. And in some cases, they might. But not in all cases.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Maybe you ARE dating...have you asked the other party what it is, exactly, that they think you are doing? Maybe to them, this IS a date...or they're grooming you to one day be one.
> 
> For the record, I too, have had male friends that were JUST friends. Or so I thought. They'd always ruin the 'friendship' by trying it on. There was only one who didn't. He took the secret to his grave, that he was secretly in love with me. I found out at the wake, and it devastated me for years.


:iagree:

This is a real risk. The OSF may be grooming. However this can be noticed by the inclination of escalating contact and alone time. There was one climbing partner that I had that started to do this and fortunately she got a boyfriend and it stopped. I don't climb with her anymore mostly because I noticed that. I think from her side she probably wanted more than friendship. 

I also think your friend did the right thing by not revealing his feelings to you if you were in another relationship. Nothing changes a dynamic more than professing feelings for someone. It's my opinion that he was protecting your friendship and any other relationship that you might have been in at the time.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

meson said:


> One of the boundaries my wife set with me with one particular OSF was that I limit the amount of family news I mention. I was trumping the time my wife spent connecting with her friend and she let me know about it. So I listened and the situation improved. THis is not one of the standard boundaries but yet it was important to my wife. I show respect to my wife by respecting her boundary.


This is an important boundary. I noticed that women would ask about my husband often. When I was less savvy I would respond with lots of information. then I noticed that when we were all together, I had just made it easy for a woman to have a long drawn out conversation with my husband because she knew enough about his current activities to keep the conversation going.

Finally l learned when people asked about my husband, I would say "fine, how is your spouse?"

I've just learned that some people want what they want and they don't care whom they trample on to get it. So here I was becoming friends with some women, some of whom who would never have met my husband without me and yet, at some point in the relationship, they had no problems making it clear that they are only hanging around due to my husband.

These days I am more confident and the sentiment "**** you" is never far from one of my tools to get my life back.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

meson said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is a real risk. The OSF may be grooming. However this can be noticed by the inclination of escalating contact and alone time. There was one climbing partner that I had that started to do this and fortunately she got a boyfriend and it stopped. I don't climb with her anymore mostly because I noticed that. I think from her side she probably wanted more than friendship.
> 
> I also think your friend did the right thing by not revealing his feelings to you if you were in another relationship. Nothing changes a dynamic more than professing feelings for someone. It's my opinion that he was protecting your friendship and any other relationship that you might have been in at the time.


He was an amazing human being; I held his had as he passed away. I'd never seen anyone die before! As if that wasn't hard enough, I then immediately had to deal with scores of people thinking that I'd been his girlfriend. Even his own family. He hadn't lied to them, I guess it was just the way he'd talked about me to them.

So yes, maybe he did protect the friendship that way; unfortunately, the result was absolutley devastating because I somehow ended up falling in love with the dead guy. I had to end the relationship I was in, because I felt like I was cheating...I ended up forming all these ideals in my head of what might have been. I beatified him. He became the perfect man that no one else could ever measure up to. We'd never even kissed...

Anyways, sorry to ramble; I'm just saying that I stay away from opposite sex frienships now, because my experiences were negative. Someone always wants more.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is an important boundary. I noticed that women would ask about my husband often. When I was less savvy I would respond with lots of information. then I noticed that when we were all together, I had just made it easy for a woman to have a long drawn out conversation with my husband because she knew enough about his current activities to keep the conversation going.
> 
> Finally l learned when people asked about my husband, I would say "fine, how is your spouse?"
> 
> ...


Interesting. This is something I do from the other side. I talk about my wife all the time. This sends the message that she is number one. If they are really my friends then they will not mind me talking her up.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

meson said:


> By this standard when I go out with a same sex friend to dinner and a movie then I am "dating". I don't buy it because I am not looking to hook up with them. In the same way I'm not looking to hook up with OSF either. For some people who only view women as potential hookups you would be correct. But this is certainly not true for me and many others.


Same sex is typically not dating. What makes it dating is the opposite sex. Unless you swing both ways. Then it could be dating.

EAs are with people who do not intend to fall in love. They are "just friends".
This is an EA by definition. If you intentions of getting into an affair that is way past an EA.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

meson said:


> Interesting. This is something I do from the other side. *I talk about my wife all the time. *This sends the message that she is number one. If they are really my friends then they will not mind me talking her up.


Do your make friends ask about her? And when they see her, do they monopolise her attention to your disadvantage? 

This might be one of those societal acceptances of the differences between men and women.

For example, I've noticed men joking about how their wife is the boss in the household. How many women can make light of their husband being the boss of their household.

OTOH, imagine a woman constantly crowing about how wonderful her husband is to her.

Also, what a lot of these women were interested in were the types of projects that my husband was working on. You know how the consulting industry is, even your free time is used for business networking.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> jealousy isn't healthy


Putting yourself in a vulnerable position and being naive is a bigger problem though. Yea sure it's possible to have OS friends and be happily married. Of course it's possible to play with fire and not get burned.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ObjectOfAffection said:


> I have a lot of male friends - mostly due to my interests and choice of profession. I also grew up with 3 brothers, no sisters, which might have something to do with it. Most of my best friends are men, although I usually become friends with their wives/gf's too (even if it is more of a casual friendship with the women).
> 
> When I cheated though... it was not with one of my close male friends. It was with a guy who was more of an acquaintance. He'd occasionally hang out with my group of friends, but I didn't know him that well. Because we lived near each other, I let him drive me home one night after I had too many drinks to drive myself. We went from barely know to full blown affair in about 2 weeks.
> 
> Did I have an affair because I had too many close male friends? No.. I had an affair because when the opportunity presented itself, I chose to betray my husband in an attempt to escape my problems rather than face them.


Example of being in a vulnerable situation because unhealthy boundaries were established. It's surely possible to have OS friends but usually seems like unnecessary risk. Your hubby can not know the difference of who you can not can not hang out with of OS.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

So lets just say that its very, very rare that men and women can be opposite sex close friends.

So should there be Opposite Sex Friends (OSF), in my humble opinon, I would say no. And if they're too close for comfort, then the spouse should say something, and the other spouse should respect their wishes because the marriage comes first of above all.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

meson said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Yes, this is why it's really important that you are in tune with you spouse and respect any gut feelings they might have. Even if they don't explicitly mention them. Too often people think their spouse is controlling when they really know you better than you think. I don't want to do things that make my wife feel insecure about our relationship.


While true, sometimes your spouse is defensive and rebels against your perceived control.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> He was an amazing human being; I held his had as he passed away. I'd never seen anyone die before! As if that wasn't hard enough, I then immediately had to deal with scores of people thinking that I'd been his girlfriend. Even his own family. He hadn't lied to them, I guess it was just the way he'd talked about me to them.
> 
> So yes, maybe he did protect the friendship that way; unfortunately, the result was absolutley devastating because I somehow ended up falling in love with the dead guy. I had to end the relationship I was in, because I felt like I was cheating...I ended up forming all these ideals in my head of what might have been. I beatified him. He became the perfect man that no one else could ever measure up to. We'd never even kissed...
> 
> Anyways, sorry to ramble; I'm just saying that I stay away from opposite sex frienships now, because my experiences were negative. Someone always wants more.


I found your experience crucial to my belief that feelings should be kept private except from your spouse. You may not remember but you mentioned this in another thread last year and we had a short PM exchange about it. What I learned was that instant fog can be created from the revelation of feelings. 

How many OSFs want more in your experience wanted more? 100% 80% or lower?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lovingsummer said:


> I do have a male friend that I do go to lunch with maybe 2x a year. I have put up the boundaries from the beginning (we've been friends 20 years) if he disrespects those boundaries, he's disrespecting ME... He'd be gone in a second but so far that hasn't been a problem. My H knows him but chooses not go around him since he's alittle to much into his "feminine side" (not gay just talks about his feelings alot) and my H's not into that.


I think you are playing with fire any time you talk to him unless your relationship is feeling really strong at that time. Emotional affairs are not named that by accident.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

meson said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is a real risk. The OSF may be grooming. However this can be noticed by the inclination of escalating contact and alone time. There was one climbing partner that I had that started to do this and fortunately she got a boyfriend and it stopped. I don't climb with her anymore mostly because I noticed that. I think from her side she probably wanted more than friendship.
> 
> I also think your friend did the right thing by not revealing his feelings to you if you were in another relationship. Nothing changes a dynamic more than professing feelings for someone. It's my opinion that he was protecting your friendship and any other relationship that you might have been in at the time.


Love this, meson. Perfect. That person was very honorable.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

meson said:


> I found your experience crucial to my belief that feelings should be kept private except from your spouse. You may not remember but you mentioned this in another thread last year and we had a short PM exchange about it. What I learned was that instant fog can be created from the revelation of feelings.
> 
> How many OSFs want more in your experience wanted more? 100% 80% or lower?


I do remember, but I did not remember that it was you, because I post so much and so much has happened in my life since joining.

My answer is 100%. I can't even think of one (hetero) male friend who didn't at one time or another, hope for more. Like I said, the only one who never said anything was the one who died.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

mina said:


> I have a very close male friend - we have been good friends for over 20 years. I knew him and was friends with him long before I met my husband. He is now a friend of both me and my husband - he stood up in our wedding (on the girls side! no, he didn't wear a dress.)


I hope your husband knows you have your backup plan in place lol.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

meson said:


> For me the sexual inclination shouldn't matter. The same boundaries should apply in either case. If it's activities that I would do with any of my male friends my wife is fine with it. She has let me go on weekend climbing trips with females that she feels comfortable with.
> 
> Movies and dinners I really don't regularly do with OSF. My wife gets the majority of the movie time and the movies she isn't really interested in I watch with SSF that I don't do other things with.
> 
> ...


Are you saying you go on trips alone with a woman?

One of the best ways to bond with a woman is to conquer something together. Just like you do with guys. But the bond you get with woman from this is not a man crush.

Hey I am not trying to attack you. If it works for you great, but this seems very risky to me. It relies on feelings to be the boundary.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lovingsummer said:


> I have offered to have no contact if he wishes and he said no, but I don't want to go either. I've had lunch with him maybe 10 times in 20 years since we lost contact for about 10 years.
> 
> I don't expose my children to him because he drinks quite alot, is currently addicted to pain killers from back surgery, smokes pot, lately experimenting with crack and the hookers that go along with it. So no, I don't bring my children around him.
> 
> I do realize how fast EA's can happen and I'm very aware of my boundaries. Nor will I be around him if he's high, I've walked out of the restaurant before and left him sitting there.


Sounds more like a charity friendship. Maybe not quite so dangerous.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> You could imagine that your husband or wife will have sex with everyone else. And in some cases, they might. But not in all cases.


Ummm no. Why do folks keep saying not in all cases like that makes a difference?

So what risk level is ok? 50 / 50, 1 in 5, or is 1 in 100 hundred a good risk?

How about I switch this back the other way. Are we 100% sure that having the opposites sex friends will not turn into a damaging relationship? No one can say that. This is even true with same sex friends. But same sex friends are not exactly the same as opposites sex friends. 

Also folks, folks why is everyone all hung up on someone having sex? Like that is the only boundary. Like that is what breaks up marriages.

You really need to look at the risks beyond someone having sex. IMHO.

EAs are about bonding too closely with friends. Too closely does not mean that it will always turn into a PA. :slap: I get the focus for BSs. But you would think that at the least after getting burned they would get it more than others.

The bonding gets to a point where is detracts from the marriage. It is a third person now in the marriage. It can indeed turn into a PA but that is way down the road and the damage has already been done.

The concern with opposites sex friends in not just worrying about penis in vagina. Gee Whiz.

So boundaries are key with opposites sex friends. But hanging out with alone time, going on trips, movies, dinners and so on is a much tougher boundary to deal with. Wow.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

For my wife and for me the answer is no it's not okay. It's a boundary that I would not consider changing.

I don't think she would like it either.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Do your make friends ask about her? And when they see her, do they monopolise her attention to your disadvantage?
> 
> This might be one of those societal acceptances of the differences between men and women.


I have not noticed obvious phishing from my male friends. They talk about my wife a bit and remember things they bring up in conversation with her but nothing that has seemed like grooming. 




NextTimeAround said:


> OTOH, imagine a woman constantly crowing about how wonderful her husband is to her.
> 
> Also, what a lot of these women were interested in were the types of projects that my husband was working on. You know how the consulting industry is, even your free time is used for business networking.


This is not a habit that I have seen. Women talking about wonderful husbands are seen negatively when talking with other women. However I do know my wife talks me up to guys. A couple of weeks ago I finished a climbing trip and took a detour to visit my wife at summer camp with the kids. she introduced me to an acquantance she had met who jokingly mentioned he wanted to see me part the waters of the lake we were next to after my wife said this is my husband the one I've talked about. I was secretly pleased. From his tone I could tell that it really works well and sends the appropriate message.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Even as a child, my little boy friends would try to get me to pull down my pants, or show them my chest. WTF? Even 5 year olds are programmed to see their little girl counterparts as potential 'mates'...??? LMAO!!!


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Yea I wish we could get a percentage on tam of how many OM were just friends. I know my wife's OM would have been her friend had I not noticed all this crap was up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

An emotional affair can be more devastating...IMO I would be less hurt by a ONS with a stranger than for my husband to tell me that he has fallen in love with his coworker...If that is the case, he would be more likely to leave me. 

I agree. Why are some people only concerned with the physical aspect of cheating? Emotional cheating is far worse IMO...and much easier to do. Like some have said, it can happen without you even being award that it is. And, far more difficult to undo.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Ummm no. Why do folks keep saying not in all cases like that makes a difference?
> 
> So what risk level is ok? 50 / 50, 1 in 5, or is 1 in 100 hundred a good risk?
> 
> ...


This is exactly right. And often the people involved in the EA have no idea just how vulnerable they are to having one.


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## Mr steal your girl (Aug 11, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> An emotional affair can be more devastating...IMO I would be less hurt by a ONS with a stranger than for my husband to tell me that he has fallen in love with his coworker...If that is the case, he would be more likely to leave me.
> 
> I agree. Why are some people only concerned with the physical aspect of cheating? Emotional cheating is far worse IMO...and much easier to do. Like some have said, it can happen without you even being award that it is. And, far more difficult to undo.



Men and women are opposites....emotional cheating is harder for a woman to take and a one night stand is harder for a man. Of course this doesn't apply to all men or women.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Are you saying you go on trips alone with a woman?
> 
> One of the best ways to bond with a woman is to conquer something together. Just like you do with guys. But the bond you get with woman from this is not a man crush.
> 
> Hey I am not trying to attack you. If it works for you great, but this seems very risky to me. It relies on feelings to be the boundary.


Entropy,

I will defend OSFs strongly since they have made a great difference in my life and have indeed improved my marriage. 

But I will not defend spending a lot of alone time with the oppossite sex. I do agree with you it is very risky. But it is something that has been discussed with my wife and extra boundaries are in effect. If you want to know more I can PM about it.

And don't worry, I know you are not attacking me. It violates strongly one of your basic boundaries and I understand why. In fact you're one of the posters that has helped me the most on TAM.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

meson said:


> A couple of weeks ago I finished a climbing trip and took a detour to visit my wife at summer camp with the kids. she introduced me to an acquantance she had met who jokingly mentioned he wanted to see me part the waters of the lake we were next to after my wife said this is my husband the one I've talked about. I was secretly pleased. From his tone I could tell that it really works well and sends the appropriate message.


Well having an acquaintance from work or likely from summer camp is not really a problem. Not sure if your wife and he are councilers or something but that's not the same as a work acquaintance who she also goes to lunch with. Work friend is fine. Just keep work at work. Best friend growng up: Keep it to VERY rare. Anything else then just no.

Okay I'm adding this edit: I personally would still be a little leary about a coed summer camp deal without me there. What a perfect opportunity for someone to build emotional bonds.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

meson said:


> I have not noticed obvious phishing from my male friends. They talk about my wife a bit and remember things they bring up in conversation with her but nothing that has seemed like grooming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Had a wonderful flashback to the movie "Seven Year Itch". LOL.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Even as a child, my little boy friends would try to get me to pull down my pants, or show them my chest. WTF? Even 5 year olds are programmed to see their little girl counterparts as potential 'mates'...??? LMAO!!!


WOW!!!!

LOL. You may be onto some serious insight here. 

This is at least hilarious.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

meson said:


> Interesting. This is something I do from the other side. I talk about my wife all the time. This sends the message that she is number one. If they are really my friends then they will not mind me talking her up.


That's it! This is how you handle it and place firm boundaries in place.[/QUOTE]




Jellybeans said:


> I recently came upon a situation like this and find it very strange. For all of the reasons you mentioned. The ex was saying how the spouse and the ex themself were "both" the married's bff. I just thought, huh? Especially when they hang out frequently and grab lunch and go shopping together. The ex admitted that 1 of his relationships had ended because his partner "couldn't deal with it" (his being bff's with his ex) and the married's spouse also made some odd comments.



I am bumping my own comments for your take on this, TAMers.

*What do you make of this?*


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> This is exactly right. And often the people involved in the EA have no idea just how vulnerable they are to having one.


Like ... me. sigh


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

meson said:


> Entropy,
> 
> I will defend OSFs strongly since they have made a great difference in my life and have indeed improved my marriage.
> 
> ...


Very cool. It is an interesting topic and it would be less instructive if everyone just agreed on the nuances. I think it is important to see the shades of gray. 

Like I said I have opposite sex friends. BUT indeed I have proved that my boundaries need to be tighter than the next person. I realize this. But I hasten to say I may not be THAT different from the next person.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> That's it! This is how you handle it and place firm boundaries in place.






I am bumping my own comments for your take on this, TAMers.

*What do you make of this?*[/QUOTE]

My take is that being "besties" with your ex is ridiculous once you are married to someone else. The only way I can see this working is if you ex turned out to be gay later, and this was the reason their romantic relationship couldn't continue.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Is it bad that I am now triggering big time over this whole thread?? Ugh!!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> My take is that being "besties" with your ex is ridiculous once you are married to someone else. The only way I can see this working is if you ex turned out to be gay later, and this was the reason their romantic relationship couldn't continue.


My contention is that you should not have a OS friend under almost all circumstances.

And if the OS friend is an EX then you It seems extreme to even wonder about it. I seriously hate to address it because then it comes across as something that people's opinions vary on but almost no one would be alright with that and but here goes.

NO NO NO. No friendship with an ex. Not normal for anyone to even make you think this is okay.

NO.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Is it bad that I am now triggering big time over this whole thread?? Ugh!!


I'd say if you are going to trigger then this is the best place for it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

The interesting this is if you asked this same question in a general relationship forum, the majority people would be saying it's ok. And if you think the opposite, then you're insecure, jealous, or controlling.

Strange how being touched by infidelity changes one's opinion about this.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> The interesting this is if you asked this same question in a general relationship forum, the majority people would be saying it's ok. And if you think the opposite, then you're insecure, jealous, or controlling.
> 
> Strange how being touched by infidelity changes one's opinion about this.


However if you ask marriage councilors, clergy, or psychologist then probably more like what you see here. They are less naive also.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> However if you ask marriage councilors, clergy, or psychologist then probably more like what you see here. They are less naive also.


IDK, in my experience, these people would respond more like, "Well, what do YOU feel about opposite sex friends?"


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> IDK, in my experience, these people would respond more like, "Well, what do YOU feel about opposite sex friends?"


Funny. psychotherapy then yes they would ask that. Plain old common sense psychologist with marriage councilor experience then may be who I was envisioning.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for answering, everyone.

I find it odd, too.



Thundarr said:


> Not normal for anyone to even make you think this is okay.
> 
> NO.


:iagree:

I'm of the opinion that your spouse should be your bff. Once you start letting someone else in, especially someone of the opposite sex (if you are hetero), who you've loved and have a history with, that is not cool and takes away from the primary relationship.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Thanks for answering, everyone.
> 
> I find it odd, too.
> 
> ...


It's more than uncool. It's disrespectful and insulting.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

I don't agree that the responses would be different depending on the forum. In my opinion a married woman should not be going to movies or dinner alone with another man and vice versa. I think of it this way. If people you know were to see your spouse out alone with a member of the opposite sex what would they think? That he/she is out with a friend or he/she is cheating?


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Not to mention I think a lot of times these great friends are somebody the spouse doesn't even know or knows very little about.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> Not to mention I think a lot of times these great friends are somebody the spouse doesn't even know or knows very little about.


If that is the case then it is SUPER bad news. Because spouses/partners should be aware of all friendships. It's that whole "If you have nothing to hide..."


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> If that is the case then it is SUPER bad news. Because spouses/partners should be aware of all friendships. It's that whole "If you have nothing to hide..."


I agree and there should be nothing you need to hide in a relationship. I can't imagine living a life where I have to guard my phone or my computer. I leave both out in the open in other rooms most of the time. I see so many stories on here about folks guarding their phones or sleeping with them. Huge red flag if you're in a serious relationship.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

I have always been pretty iffy about this but recent events in my family have confirmed, my husband and I should not have close friendships with the opposite sex.

First- My brother was on deployment in Bahrain for 6 months. Meanwhile, his wife was pregnant with their first child together (she has two from a previous relationship) and gave birth while he was gone. While he was over there, he made friends with a girl in his division. When he got home, he couldn't wait to show everyone pictures of her and kept ranting and raving about how awesome of a friend she was. He said if it weren't for her, he couldn't have made it through deployment, and that they hung out every night....whether sitting around listening to music, eating together, etc. My SIL was skeptical at first but he insisted she meet her when they returned, so she could see they were truly friends. They hung out a few times, once at a BBQ, once at a concert, and again just hanging around the house. My SIL said it was really awkward and that the woman didn't talk to her much, only my brother. They all went out one night and my brother and the girl got slammed and even asked if this woman could stay the night at their house! Needless to say, two weeks upon his return home, he filed for divorce. He *claimed* to be living with a buddy but we knew he moved in with his new female friend. Months go by and he confirmed, they are living together. Funny because, to this day, he insists they are just really good friends. I haven't met her because I find thew whole thing pretty sick. He was vulnerable and a friendship was able to turn inappropriate pretty quickly. A real woman would have backed off and told him to work on his marriage.

Next up, my parents. They have been married for 37 years and always had a "no friends with the opposite sex" policy. Their marriage has been far from perfect, but still, they lasted 37 years so something had to be right. Anyways my mom hasn't quite been herself since neck surgery last year....can't get around too well, highly dependent, no intimacy between them, etc. My dad found one of his old flames from college online. It started out completely innocent, just "How's life turned out, what's happened in the last 40 years" that sort of thing. Then they started sharing devotionals via Email (my dad's a preacher, go figure.....) Then they exchanged phone numbers. He even sent her a few gifts and told us all about them. My mom was peeved but didn't forbid it. Like my brother, he's ranting and raving to the family about how awesome this woman is, showing us her picture, etc..... I never spoke up because in my mind, I couldn't in a million years imagine my dad were pursuing an inappropriate relationship. It is so far from his character i'd expect the world to end before that happened. Well, he has filed for divorce and wants to move to another state to be with this woman. BOTH my brother AND father were the kind of guys you would never, ever, expect this behavior from. They have always been the most loyal, family oriented men you could imagine. So much so, they helped me set my standards for what a man should be like.......Everyone was in disbelief about both of them and their actions. Women who knew them started questioning the stability of their own marriage, if someone like my brother or dad could do that. I'm just telling it like it is.

No, no one is perfect, not even my brother or dad. And no, not ALL friendships turn inappropriate. But in both instances, it started out completely innocent.....but there was vulnerability present. So my thing is, why even risk it? It doesn't always have to start out with ulterior motives..... I know for a fact in my brother and dad's situation they never anticipated that it would turn into what it did and had they seen it coming they probably would have chose not to be friends with these women......but when you start confiding personal details of your life in someone and continue to build a rapport with them, an emotional bond can form that sort of detaches you from your current reality. So no, if I found out my husband was forming a friendship with another woman I would nip it in the bud ASAP. There's too many men out there he can bond with than for him to jeopardize our marriage by getting friendly with another woman.......


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

In my experience it happened once and that was certainly enough to open my eyes to what a problem it can become. At some point the female goes from friends to loving the attention. After that bad things can happen. As for the male I don't imagine it takes long for the thoughts to become sexual.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Driving has risks. It's one of the riskiest things we do. Death is a possible result. And thousands die from it each year but we learn to drive. We learn the rules we learn to be safe and to minimize the risks. We don't say avoid driving. Life is full of risks that we master. 

OSF are risky and they can cause the death of marriages but those risks can be mastered as well with a spouse that is dedicated to the marriage. As long as the priority is the marriage then the marriage can endure. 

Those that prohibit OSFs really are practicing a philosophy of avoidance. I have never been one to avoid problems out of fear. And that is really what it is. One can chose to avoid half the population on the planet out of fear because you don't feel inclined to learn now to protect your marriage. I say learn to protect your marriage with boundaries and constructive action with your spouse. This will arm you for a myriad of infidelity risks that are not OSF related. This will enable you to live a fuller and more rewarding life. Mistakes may happen but if you are committed to your marriage it will minimize them. 

I am not one of those people who live in a man cave hiding from society afraid of myself and my spouse. Live! Be a person with a life purpose and seek it. Doing so with your spouse and others is much more rewarding. Take boundaries seriously and set them with your spouse as your needs warrant. Each marriage requires different boundaries according to the individuals. Some can't handle OSFs and that's fine but others can. It's not a global rule that matters its the boundaries agreed to by the spouses together that matter and the adherence to them that count.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

meson said:


> Driving has risks. It's one of the riskiest things we do. Death is a possible result. And thousands die from it each year but we learn to drive. We learn the rules we learn to be safe and to minimize the risks. We don't say avoid driving. Life is full of risks that we master.
> 
> OSF are risky and they can cause the death of marriages but those risks can be mastered as well with a spouse that is dedicated to the marriage. As long as the priority is the marriage then the marriage can endure.
> 
> ...


Actually I would sugget that putting up with OSFs is acting out of fear. Not being strong enough even. So I would not avoid this conflict. It is not acting out of fear to judge your risks.

I would never gamble my money that family relies on. This is not fear. It is reason. Same with OSFs. It is able reason and being accountable. My marriage is too imprtant to me to take such risks likely.

I am mindful when I drive that I have a family. I make driving decisions based on this. I really do.
But driving is a requirement where I live. Having opposite sex friends is not. We make choices based on our priorites and the associated risks.

Just look at these forums and those acting out of fear are the ones that are too afraid to reason and take action.

I choose to live my life with my wife. I do not need OSFs in my life. If I needed them I would be single.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Actually I would sugget that putting up with OSFs is acting out of fear. Not being strong enough even. So I would not avoid this conflict. It is not acting out of fear to judge your risks.
> 
> I would never gamble my money that family relies on. This is not fear. It is reason. Same with OSFs. It is able reason and being accountable. My marriage is too imprtant to me to take such risks likely.
> 
> ...


This is awesome.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Actually I would sugget that putting up with OSFs is acting out of fear. Not being strong enough even. So I would not avoid this conflict. It is not acting out of fear to judge your risks.
> 
> I would never gamble my money that family relies on. This is not fear. It is reason. Same with OSFs. It is able reason and being accountable. My marriage is too imprtant to me to take such risks likely.
> 
> ...


You took the words right out of my mouth LOL. I'm sure I would love to skydive but for me the risk outweighs the benefit. Likewise, the risk of getting to friendly with the opposite sex is not worth the benefits. Avoidance doesn't always have to be a bad thing. I'm not saying this is the right thing for everyone in their own marriages but for me, especially seeing the effects of it with two men I looked up to and admired, it's just not worth it.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I was always taught to "avoid the appearance of evil" when I was growing up. How many people stop and think about how it looks to others if they are married and seen out in public with an OSF? Others that may know you and your family don't know you are "just friends". And what about your kids? How do you think they see it? How does it make them feel, seeing their parent with an OSF?

This is another reason I think it isn't worth it.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

lovingsummer said:


> I do have a male friend that I do go to lunch with maybe 2x a year. I have put up the boundaries from the beginning (we've been friends 20 years) if he disrespects those boundaries, he's disrespecting ME... *He'd be gone in a second *but so far that hasn't been a problem.


Pardon me if it was answered in the thread already, but I have to ask.

Do you really value your friend so much more than your husband that you'd decide to divorce on the spot if he'd get uncomfortable with it?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

snap said:


> Pardon me if it was answered in the thread already, but I have to ask.
> 
> Do you really value your friend so much more than your husband that you'd decide to divorce on the spot if he'd get uncomfortable with it?


I don't think that's what she meant. I think she means that if her FRIEND disrespects the boundaries, HE'D be gone in a second, right?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I will speak from personal experience:

My 1st H & I were married for 22 yrs. The marriage ended due to his emotional abuse & bad temper...however....

Not even ONCE did either of us go out with an opposite sex friend w/o each other IN 22 YEARS. We had couple friends. All ex's stayed in the past. All new OSF became friends of the marriage. It was an implied agreement; no discussion was necessary.

I think this arrangement/agreement helped to prevent EA's.

After the divorce, I wanted to be friends with ExH because we have (grown) children & I like him (not love). His new G/F put a stop to that LOL.

My daughter had a male best friend all through high school. She also had boyfriends. Her father would say that this friend wanted my daughter as his g/f & I said no way.

Father was right. Friend finally made a pass & the 4-yr. "friendship" ended.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I don't think that's what she meant. I think she means that if her FRIEND disrespects the boundaries, HE'D be gone in a second, right?


Oh, now I see. Just my reading comprehension problem then, nevermind.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I will speak from personal experience:
> 
> My 1st H & I were married for 22 yrs. The marriage ended due to his emotional abuse & bad temper...however....
> 
> ...


That sparks the question can guys and girls really be friends. I don't think the two sexes are wired that way. The closer the two get the better the chances one or both will develop feelings that go beyond "friendship".


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> That sparks the question can guys and girls really be friends. I don't think the two sexes are wired that way. The closer the two get the better the chances one or both will develop feelings that go beyond "friendship".


I think it is possible but risky. My circle of long-time married friends don't have OSF's. The guys are connected through golf & other sports - an OSF wouldn't fit in. We the wives go to the movies, lunch, etc. & then do plenty of couple things. It's just how we roll. Maybe it's a generation thing....idk.

So I think about my mid-20 yr. old daughters - when they are single, they have lots of OSF's. But the guys that hang around for a LONG time really want more. I've seen it over & over.

My oldest is in a LTR. She has no OSF's & would be upset if he had OSF's - what free time they have (both work, a baby) they spend together.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> I don't think that's what she meant. I think she means that if her FRIEND disrespects the boundaries, HE'D be gone in a second, right?


You are correct  The friend would be gone in a second. This is something that I'm very aware of because my Dad had an EA with a woman he worked with. My parents divorced after 30 years of marriage because of it.

My Dad is still with this woman and claims "nothing ever happened" until after my Mom left. I called BS and told him that I didn't care when he laid a finger on her. The problem was, he invested enough time and energy on another woman to make her more important than his wife.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

lovingsummer said:


> You are correct  * The friend would be gone in a second. *This is something that I'm very aware of because my Dad had an EA with a woman he worked with. My parents divorced after 30 years of marriage because of it.
> 
> My Dad is still with this woman and claims "nothing ever happened" until after my Mom left. I called BS and told him that I didn't care when he laid a finger on her. The problem was, he invested enough time and energy on another woman to make her more important than his wife.


Let's hope so. I'm starting to notice attitudes in which some people feel that their spouse needs to get along with the friends....not vice versa.

Great, someone with whom you spent most of free time; tie up your finances with; share relatives and family; maybe also be the other parent of your children.......and you're still telling them if you can't get along with these acquaintances over her that I've only known for a few months, well, you're history.......


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Let's hope so. I'm starting to notice attitudes in which some people feel that their spouse needs to get along with the friends....not vice versa.
> 
> Great, someone with whom you spent most of free time; tie up your finances with; share relatives and family; maybe also be the other parent of your children.......and you're still telling them if you can't get along with these acquaintances over her that I've only known for a few months, well, you're history.......


I completely agree, and I know my W would have put up the fight of the century had I told her she couldn't see her friend anymore. I mean, she even told me that she didn't find him attractive because he was too short, but then, right after DDay, she freely admitted "well, there's always been an attraction there, we just never acted on it."

I called her out on this lie, and she said, "I know you would never have let me see him if you knew we found each other attractive."

NOOOOOOOO SHIIIIIIII*ITTTTT!!!!!!

I swear, this whole thead has really set me back in my recovery process.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> I completely agree, and I know my W would have put up the fight of the century had I told her she couldn't see her friend anymore. I mean, she even told me that she didn't find him attractive because he was too short, but then, right after DDay, she freely admitted "well, there's always been an attraction there, we just never acted on it."
> 
> I called her out on this lie, and she said, "I know you would never have let me see him if you knew we found each other attractive."
> 
> ...


You have confirmed why these type of so called friendships are bad inside of a marriage. I mean how horrible it would've been to go out with your wife and this guy and his significant other? Well I guess he would've had to have had a significant other but yeah it's always just their friend who I'm sure always has the best intentions.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

What I find interesting is that when

I am single, I have problems with male friends as I guess they're hoping they have a chance with me.......

and when I am in an exclusive relationship (including marriage),I have a problem with females who try to befriend me to get to my husband or female friends of his who for some reason feel that their taking on a wife has nothing to do with them.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> You have confirmed why these type of so called friendships are bad inside of a marriage. I mean how horrible it would've been to go out with your wife and this guy and his significant other? Well I guess he would've had to have had a significant other but yeah it's always just their friend who I'm sure always has the best intentions.


This OM almost never even had a girlfriend. He's still not married or otherwise with anyone. My W was actually the more aggressive one. He was just THERE, never going anywhere, solid. He responded to her accelerating feelings for him. My W actually tried to set up him once with a friend of hers, and it lasted one date.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

I have more than one opposite sex friend. The friendships started because we're all in the same industry and we often take classes and do workshops together. My H and I have spent time with one of these men and his wife. There is only one who has a GF I've never met and admittedly we have gone for lunch together alone. He's about 3 inches shorter than me (I'm very tall) and there's no sexual chemistry so it never seemed like an issue. I've always been very respectful of my male friend's wives or GF's. No time spent alone together unless they knew and approved and I would never be alone in their homes with them out of respect for the wife or GF, not because anything would ever happen. And I often end up becoming friends with their wives or GF's.

Since discovering my H's A, I've had to rethink future friendships. I know in my heart I would NEVER get involved with a married man because I could never put another woman through the pain I've been through. BUT I certainly don't want my H to have opposite friends ever again that I'm not friends with and no single women ever and he's agreed, but I have not given up mine. I don't think there's a danger for me with the men I've known for years but now that I've been betrayed, I don't think I'd trust myself with a new single attractive male friend. Not because I'd set out to cheat but because I've never felt more vulnerable in my life.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Zanna, do you have a link for your situation?


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Zanna said:


> I have more than one opposite sex friend. The friendships started because we're all in the same industry and we often take classes and do workshops together. My H and I have spent time with one of these men and his wife. There is only one who has a GF I've never met and admittedly we have gone for lunch together alone. He's about 3 inches shorter than me (I'm very tall) and there's no sexual chemistry so it never seemed like an issue. I've always been very respectful of my male friend's wives or GF's. No time spent alone together unless they knew and approved and I would never be alone in their homes with them out of respect for the wife or GF, not because anything would ever happen. And I often end up becoming friends with their wives or GF's.
> 
> Since discovering my H's A, I've had to rethink future friendships. I know in my heart I would NEVER get involved with a married man because I could never put another woman through the pain I've been through. BUT I certainly don't want my H to have opposite friends ever again that I'm not friends with and no single women ever and he's agreed, but I have not given up mine. I don't think there's a danger for me with the men I've known for years but now that I've been betrayed, I don't think I'd trust myself with a new single attractive male friend. Not because I'd set out to cheat but because I've never felt more vulnerable in my life.


If out of respect you wouldn't be in their homes with them alone I would say you shouldn't be going to lunch or doing other things with them alone either.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Zanna said:


> I have more than one opposite sex friend. The friendships started because we're all in the same industry and we often take classes and do workshops together. My H and I have spent time with one of these men and his wife. There is only one who has a GF I've never met and admittedly we have gone for lunch together alone. He's about 3 inches shorter than me (I'm very tall) and there's no sexual chemistry so it never seemed like an issue. I've always been very respectful of my male friend's wives or GF's. No time spent alone together unless they knew and approved and I would never be alone in their homes with them out of respect for the wife or GF, not because anything would ever happen. And I often end up becoming friends with their wives or GF's.
> 
> Since discovering my H's A, I've had to rethink future friendships. I know in my heart I would NEVER get involved with a married man because I could never put another woman through the pain I've been through. BUT I certainly don't want my H to have opposite friends ever again that I'm not friends with and no single women ever and he's agreed, but I have not given up mine. I don't think there's a danger for me with the men I've known for years but now that I've been betrayed, I don't think I'd trust myself with a new single attractive male friend. Not because I'd set out to cheat but because I've never felt more vulnerable in my life.


Sorry for your situation. I agree with the conclusions you have come to as well.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

kl84 said:


> So my thing is, why even risk it? It doesn't always have to start out with ulterior motives..... I know for a fact in my brother and dad's situation they never anticipated that it would turn into what it did and had they seen it coming they probably would have chose not to be friends with these women....


And that is exactly the point.

There are millions of drug addicts and alcoholics in this country. And not one of them ever intended to become an addict. Not a single person has ever tried crack, or crystal meth, or anything else believing that it was the start of a slide into addiction.

Every one of those people believed they were strong enough and disciplined enough to handle it. "Only weak people become addicts. That's not me. I'm fine."

That's the lure of the "only friends" lie. Often, they're lying to themselves. Just as most addicts will maintain that they can quit anytime they want, many waywards will insist that they're only friends with the AP.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Zanna said:


> Since discovering my H's A, I've had to rethink future friendships. I know in my heart I would NEVER get involved with a married man because I could never put another woman through the pain I've been through. *BUT I certainly don't want my H to have opposite friends ever again that I'm not friends with* and no single women ever and he's agreed, but I have not given up mine. I don't think there's a danger for me with the men I've known for years but now that I've been betrayed, I don't think I'd trust myself with a new single attractive male friend. Not because I'd set out to cheat but because I've never felt more vulnerable in my life.


Just because you know the woman and are friends with her doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. You will need to have other boundaries and transparency in addition.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

meson said:


> Just because you know the woman and are friends with her doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. You will need to have other boundaries and transparency in addition.


This is true. Even women that I was friends with first would try to find ways to contact my husband directly.

I remember when I was firming up plans with a female friend, I sent her an e-mail. Then told my husband I hadn't from her. Of course, he said, because she e-mailed him. I was soft touch then. If that were to happen today, I would cancel all plans with her.

It' s interesting because I remember mentioning this incident to another female friend (single, never married) who claimed to not see what the problem was.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> It' s interesting because I remember mentioning this incident to another female friend (single, never married) who claimed to not see what the problem was.


It's easy to buy the politically correct nonsense so I'm sure many people see no problems with it. Apparently on a marriage forum however it's almost unanimous


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

kl84 said:


> I have always been pretty iffy about this but recent events in my family have confirmed, my husband and I should not have close friendships with the opposite sex.
> 
> First- My brother was on deployment in Bahrain for 6 months. Meanwhile, his wife was pregnant with their first child together (she has two from a previous relationship) and gave birth while he was gone. While he was over there, he made friends with a girl in his division. When he got home, he couldn't wait to show everyone pictures of her and kept ranting and raving about how awesome of a friend she was. He said if it weren't for her, he couldn't have made it through deployment, and that they hung out every night....whether sitting around listening to music, eating together, etc. My SIL was skeptical at first but he insisted she meet her when they returned, so she could see they were truly friends. They hung out a few times, once at a BBQ, once at a concert, and again just hanging around the house. My SIL said it was really awkward and that the woman didn't talk to her much, only my brother. They all went out one night and my brother and the girl got slammed and even asked if this woman could stay the night at their house! Needless to say, two weeks upon his return home, he filed for divorce. He *claimed* to be living with a buddy but we knew he moved in with his new female friend. Months go by and he confirmed, they are living together. Funny because, to this day, he insists they are just really good friends. I haven't met her because I find thew whole thing pretty sick. He was vulnerable and a friendship was able to turn inappropriate pretty quickly. A real woman would have backed off and told him to work on his marriage.
> 
> ...


Wow....such sad stories


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Zanna, do you have a link for your situation?


If you click on my name, you will find a link to all the threads I've started. I didn't really tell my story in one thread because I've been all over the place during this R. One day I'm in the next, I'm questioning everything...


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> If out of respect you wouldn't be in their homes with them alone I would say you shouldn't be going to lunch or doing other things with them alone either.



We talk business or plan future projects. Other times we have had lunch together during the break during one of our industry workshops or coffee after class. I couldn't get very far in my career if I only networked with those of the same sex. That said, I don't discuss my marriage or other personal issues with these friends. I have boundaries and I know what's appropriate. I have no desire to have an affair as I'm turned off by any man who would hit on me knowing I'm married. It's happened many times and I know how to say no.

My boundary is that we don't talk business alone in anyone's home. I don't believe it is disrespectful to talk business or career over lunch with a peer.



meson said:


> Just because you know the woman and are friends with her doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. You will need to have other boundaries and transparency in addition.


Absolutely. I agree. We have transparency. And my boundary is that he is NOT to be alone with any females under any circumstances. He's not concerned about my current male friends as I suppose he trusts me or he doesn't see my these friends as a threat but I would venture to guess that if a gorgeous new friend showed up, he'd have something to say. However, I would not put myself in that situation. Not that I don't have free will though and I believe an A is a choice.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Actually I would sugget that putting up with OSFs is acting out of fear. Not being strong enough even. So I would not avoid this conflict. It is not acting out of fear to judge your risks.
> 
> Just look at these forums and those acting out of fear are the ones that are too afraid to reason and take action.
> 
> I choose to live my life with my wife. I do not need OSFs in my life. If I needed them I would be single.


All good points.

So... a question. I am single after my divorce. And let's say I start dating and a guy who has a lot of good female friends. And I don't have a lot of male friends (my best friends are all female). How does one even approach that? Do you just not date this person or how do you state your boundary w/o sounding insecure/jealous? Because it's just dating still, not exclusivity.

And men: how do you feel about women who have lots of good male friends? Does this make her more appealing or less so? 

In my post-divorce life I am starting to wonder if I'm the weirdo for not havin lots of male friends when I see guys with lots of female friends.

I'm interested in what you guys have to say on this matter.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

My question is: unless there is evidence of inappropriate behavior or boundary issues, isn't a persons' friends, their own business?


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

Badblood said:


> My question is: unless there is evidence of inappropriate behavior or boundary issues, isn't a persons' friends, their own business?


Well, even when there's no inappropriate behavior some people have Gorean tendencies.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> All good points.
> 
> So... a question. I am single after my divorce. And let's say I start dating and a guy who has a lot of good female friends. And I don't have a lot of male friends (my best friends are all female). How does one even approach that? Do you just not date this person or how do you state your boundary w/o sounding insecure/jealous? Because it's just dating still, not exclusivity.
> 
> ...


I would be wary of dating a woman who had a lot of male friends. I think it makes her less appealing. But if I was just dating her, I wouldn't feel the need to start demanding she got rid of the ones she had. Once we got married, her activities with them would have to be severely curtailed. Then again, I've been totally burned by this issue in my marriage, so I'm sensitive to it. And if I were to be single again, I would definitely share this issue with a woman if we got serious.

Jelly, regarding the question if you started dating someone and he had lots of female friends, I think the question I would ask myself is WHY does he have so many of them? Does he need them in his life to validate himself somehow? And if you two were to become serious, would you be enough validation so he woudn't continue to need to hang with other females? These are tough to get into early in a dating relationship, so I think you would have to gauge that as you commit to this person.

Also, I think this gets harder 1) the longer someone is single and 2) the longer they have been friends with OSFs. It's kind of hard to expect a 50 year old, for example, who has been single for 10+ years, to not have any opposite sex friendships. The real issue is their need to continue having one-on-one time with them after being engaged or married to you.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Badblood said:


> My question is: unless there is evidence of inappropriate behavior or boundary issues, isn't a persons' friends, their own business?


Nope. If an OSF makes your spouse wary or uncomfortable, you should always err on the side of your spouse, regardless of evidence. 

Let's turn your question around a bit. Let's say you had a crush on your OSF but married someone else because they were a better fit for whatever reason. You hid your feelings from your spouse perfectly, but got butterflies around your OSF. You sought time with the OSF, but your spouse was none the wiser of your feelings for this person. There is no evidence of boundary issues at all. Is that okay?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> All good points.
> 
> So... a question. I am single after my divorce. And let's say I start dating and a guy who has a lot of good female friends. And I don't have a lot of male friends (my best friends are all female). How does one even approach that? Do you just not date this person or how do you state your boundary w/o sounding insecure/jealous? Because it's just dating still, not exclusivity.
> 
> ...


The bottom line is just say it. I think it's unhealthy for marriage and it's something I'm not willing to live with. Then ask for their boundaries. If you guys then realize that you're not compatible then what can you do? Compromise if your not strong in the belief I guess. I would not compromise on this one myself.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Badblood said:


> My question is: unless there is evidence of inappropriate behavior or boundary issues, isn't a persons' friends, their own business?


My view of marriage is that pretty much everything that one spouse does, says, thinks, or feels, is the business of the other spouse.

It is a fact that OSFs increase the risk to the marriage. Even if there is no attraction (yet). Even if there is no intention of infidelity (yet).

It's better to avoid problems than to let problems develop and then deal with them because that's more politically correct.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It's a matter of time before the OSF meets some emotional need. Then you are swimning in a shark pool. You emotions and the dynamics of EA are the sharks.


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## Rick495 (Aug 22, 2012)

Read these books:

Sex at Dawn
Women's Infidelity
Sperm Wars


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Nope. If an OSF makes your spouse wary or uncomfortable, you should always err on the side of your spouse, regardless of evidence.


:iagree:



Thundarr said:


> The bottom line is just say it.


But *how* does one say it w/o coming across as jealous/insecure?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> But *how* does one say it w/o coming across as jealous/insecure?


First thing you say it: 
I don't think it's okay to have opposite sex friends.

And then follow that up with 
It's not necessary for us to have an emotional bond to a friend of the OS and it could be damaging. Especially if we have problems which everyone does and you know that. That's how good people get sucked into inappropriate feelings from something that started out okay. I'm sorry if this sounds insecure, un-trusting, or jealous but it's not something I can believe with all of my heart. What do you think about it.


Or something like that.

If you are asking how to avoid a possible confrontation then sorry. I have no answer for that.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

There have been a few instances where I had to be alone with an opposite sex acquaintance, and every time, the air just changes, I can't explain it. Like I feel I shouldn't be there. For example, one of our neighbors (who is newly divorced) needed help with something at her house. I went over (at my wife's nudging) to help, and it was just this woman and me in the house for 15 minutes. I couldn't wait to do what I needed to do and get out of there. 

There was no bad intentions going on, and I've known this person for 8 years. But it just felt wrong to be there alone with her.

And that is how it should be, IMO.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> That sparks the question can guys and girls really be friends. I don't think the two sexes are wired that way. The closer the two get the better the chances one or both will develop feelings that go beyond "friendship".


Hardly is there any long term true friendship between a guy and a girl. 
Me and a guy friend have been friends for over 7 years now. I can't say it was a true "friendship". There have been sexual thoughts and tension and we were even close to getting into a relationship but being the unstable kind of guy that he is, I thought being more than friends wouldn't be okay for me. 
I would lie if I said I've never seen him more than a friend.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

NO!

I'm going to go so far as to say that even same sex friends can be dangerous to a marriage.

Intimate details of your relationship shared with a girlfriend, sister, co-worker, start to open a crack in a marriage that can be insidious, and often, invisible until it's too late.

I had a whole long story to add, but I'll leave it be. I have one failed marriage that brings me to this conclusion, and VERY firm boundaries in place around my second. I have two close girlfriends where I currently live, and two close childhood girlfriends further away. My husband is always the first person I want to spend time with, and I fit my friends in around our couple and family time. Day time lunches, mostly, Facebook, text and telephone conversations. I feel that if you're not giving your spouse 15-20 hours of intimate, personal time each week, then you have no business giving it to anyone else first (recognizing that family time may make up a piece of this).


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Nope. If an OSF makes your spouse wary or uncomfortable, you should always err on the side of your spouse, regardless of evidence.
> 
> Let's turn your question around a bit. Let's say you had a crush on your OSF but married someone else because they were a better fit for whatever reason. You hid your feelings from your spouse perfectly, but got butterflies around your OSF. You sought time with the OSF, but your spouse was none the wiser of your feelings for this person. There is no evidence of boundary issues at all. Is that okay?


Nope, because why would you marry if you weren't committed to your spouse? If you have a "crush", on somebody else , you have no business tying the knot, do you. If you do, then the issues are different, because you married for the wrong reasons. You are a spouse, not a jailer.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> My view of marriage is that pretty much everything that one spouse does, says, thinks, or feels, is the business of the other spouse.
> 
> It is a fact that OSFs increase the risk to the marriage. Even if there is no attraction (yet). Even if there is no intention of infidelity (yet).
> 
> It's better to avoid problems than to let problems develop and then deal with them because that's more politically correct.


Why not avoid the problem altogether and not get married? Hey, if you have no spouse , then you don't have to worry about cheating or OSF's or any of that stuff. I'm a BS too, but if I have to regulate my Gf's friends or if she tries to regulate mine, then there is no trust from the getgo. I would rather trust her maturity and love, than live my life in a rigid controlling atmosphere. JMO


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Badblood said:


> My question is: unless there is evidence of inappropriate behavior or boundary issues, isn't a persons' friends, their own business?


NFW 

Marriage is a partnership.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> First thing you say it:
> I don't think it's okay to have opposite sex friends.
> 
> And then follow that up with
> ...


You know, it's pretty difficult to make insecurity seem like security and jealousy seem like trust. Why not be secure and trusting until you have reason, not to be?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> You know, it's pretty difficult to make insecurity seem like security and jealousy seem like trust. Why not be secure and trusting until you have reason, not to be?


Because it's naive to think otherwise. Most infidelity is EA and most people don't have a clue how they happen. People already in an EA don't even know it until it's too late. It's an addiction. I would not tell my kids it's okay to do drugs until I don't trust you. No I say just don't do them.

I'm not insecure AT ALL. I am jealous though and proud to be. I'm not politically correct about it but I choose realistic.

Me and her male family members are the only men where emotional intimacy is appropriate. Work friends are fine. Keep it at work and be friendly enough. No lunch dates, no heart to hearts, NO talking about marriage.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Because it's naive to think otherwise. Most infidelity is EA and most people don't have a clue how they happen. People already in an EA don't even know it until it's too late. It's an addiction. I would not tell my kids it's okay to do drugs until I don't trust you. No I say just don't do them.
> 
> I'm not insecure AT ALL. I am jealous though and proud to be. I'm not politically correct about it but I choose realistic.
> 
> Me and her male family members are the only men where emotional intimacy is appropriate. Work friends are fine. Keep it at work and be friendly enough. No lunch dates, no heart to hearts, NO talking about marriage.


So, in other words, you monitor her behavior, well, good luck with that. Usually, when you do this, it backfires, bigtime. Insecurity and jealousy have been the cause of many an affair. I would think that being on TAM and listening to the wide variety of infidelity stories, shows that a person who wants to cheat, will cheat, regardless of their friendships , marriage or any other consideration. Look, if you married an immature person with poor boundaries, then no amount of monitoring is going to help. People who cheat, either an EA or PA know full well what they are doing is inappropriate. If you believe that EA's happen spontaneously, then I've got some Arizona ocean -front I'd like to sell you.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

If you consistently let your wife have her own friends and go to GNO then she will have more exposure to other males. Trust is not about letting your spouse do whatever they like, have their own friends because you have no reason too not trust her fidelity. I would not go out without my spouse alone with friends because i am considerate and even if she trusts me who says i can trust myself. Most of these cheaters are not previous cheaters or previously immature people who have always been. Its naive to think that only pre wired people cheat. You start playing with fire youre bound to get burned. Avoid the occassions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> If you consistently let your wife have her own friends and go to GNO then she will have more exposure to other males. Trust is not about letting your spouse do whatever they like, have their own friends because you have no reason too not trust her fidelity. I would not go out without my spouse alone with friends because i am considerate and even if she trusts me who says i can trust myself. Most of these cheaters are not previous cheaters or previously immature people who have always been. Its naive to think that only pre wired people cheat. You start playing with fire youre bound to get burned. Avoid the occassions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this post and reason for not allowing opposite sex friends. 

The same goes for boys or girls night out and men or women only trips. 

I allowed both and what I fool I feel like now. The STBEH was using both to meet with OW.

I also read that with these types of activities when the spouse is not around, some see other single people acting single at the bar or on the vacation and it makes them prone to experimentation because they want to see if they can also pick up other men or women.

I had no interest in GNO's. I would rather go out with my husband not girlfriends or go out with other couples.

I was married not single and I saw no reason to act single.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> If you consistently let your wife have her own friends and go to GNO then she will have more exposure to other males. Trust is not about letting your spouse do whatever they like, have their own friends because you have no reason too not trust her fidelity. I would not go out without my spouse alone with friends because i am considerate and even if she trusts me who says i can trust myself. Most of these cheaters are not previous cheaters or previously immature people who have always been. Its naive to think that only pre wired people cheat. You start playing with fire youre bound to get burned. Avoid the occassions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can get behind this, to a point. That point, of course , is who makes the call? It is up to the individual to know what their boundaries are, and act accordingly, not the spouse. If my GF objected to who I have as friends, she wouldn't be my GF for very long. I'm well over 21 and can make my decision, myself.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> NFW
> 
> Marriage is a partnership.


Yes it is. A marriage is a partnership of two sovereign individuals, each of whom has the rights of every other adult human being.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> So, in other words, you monitor her behavior, well, good luck with that. Usually, when you do this, it backfires, bigtime. Insecurity and jealousy have been the cause of many an affair. I would think that being on TAM and listening to the wide variety of infidelity stories, shows that a person who wants to cheat, will cheat, regardless of their friendships , marriage or any other consideration. Look, if you married an immature person with poor boundaries, then no amount of monitoring is going to help. People who cheat, either an EA or PA know full well what they are doing is inappropriate. If you believe that EA's happen spontaneously, then I've got some Arizona ocean -front I'd like to sell you.


I love it when someone takes something constructive and spins it around to some extreme. Yea in setting in her work parking lot with binoculars now. Geez, Don't think you know what I do.

NO I don't have to monitor anything. We both know it's not appropriate and we don't do it. It would be interesting to know what exactly I said to make you think I'm monitoring her every move?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I love it when someone takes something constructive and spins it around to some extreme. Yea in setting in her work parking lot with binoculars now. Geez, Don't think you know what I do.
> 
> NO I don't have to monitor anything. We both know it's not appropriate and we don't do it. It would be interesting to know what exactly I said to make you think I'm monitoring her every move?


Why would you want to? Look, IDK what your homelife is like, but you seem to believe that EA's happen spontaneously, which I don't believe at all. Plus, it's all about trust. My GF has OSF's and so do I, in point of fact, I have many more than she does so I would rather trust her and rather she trust me than the alternative of a relationship where any contact with an OS person is viewed with suspicion. Why would anyone want to be suspicious all the time?


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Plus, it's all about trust. My GF has OSF's and so do I, in point of fact, I have many more than she does so I would rather trust her and rather she trust me than the alternative of a relationship where any contact with an OS person is viewed with suspicion. Why would anyone want to be suspicious all the time?


People who are into Gorean culture.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Because it's naive to think otherwise. Most infidelity is EA and most people don't have a clue how they happen. People already in an EA don't even know it until it's too late. It's an addiction. I would not tell my kids it's okay to do drugs until I don't trust you. No I say just don't do them.
> 
> I'm not insecure AT ALL. I am jealous though and proud to be. I'm not politically correct about it but I choose realistic.
> 
> Me and her male family members are the only men where emotional intimacy is appropriate. Work friends are fine. Keep it at work and be friendly enough. No lunch dates, no heart to hearts, NO talking about marriage.


Friendship can be as intimate or as casual as you make it. There is no law that says you have to disclose intimate details to friends. You can have friends and not do any of the examples you brought up.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Why would you want to? Look, IDK what your homelife is like, but you seem to believe that EA's happen spontaneously, which I don't believe at all. Plus, it's all about trust. My GF has OSF's and so do I, in point of fact, I have many more than she does so I would rather trust her and rather she trust me than the alternative of a relationship where any contact with an OS person is viewed with suspicion. Why would anyone want to be suspicious all the time?


- Want to what? You're confusing me. 
- My homelife? It's darn great.
- Spontaneous affair? That's what history shows us so sure I think that. So we disagree on that. 
- It's all about trust? I trust that me, you, and everyone else if fallible. I've never had an affair but MAYBE it could have happened under the wrong circumstances.

Trust can get infinitely close to 100% but at 100% it becomes blind trust. Well blind trust seems dangerous to me. That's all.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Friendship can be as intimate or as casual as you make it. There is no law that says you have to disclose intimate details to friends. You can have friends and not do any of the examples you brought up.


Yes you can and I know it's possible. Here's the bottom line though. You think I am insecure and always suspicious. Well I'm not. I think you are naive overly sure of people's control of their emotions. I am SURE you say that you are not. I'm very glad that my wife and I both would feel weird with an OSF. I'm sure you are glad that you and your gf both like to have OSF. 

I happen to think you put yourself at risk is all.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

For me it's very simple. Even if you trust your significant other to the moon and back. I don't think a guy wants to sit there and think about his wife out alone with another guy. On the flip side I doubt there's many girls who want their guy going out alone with another female.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Think of it like this:

You live in a small town. You know everybody and everyone seems to be honest and polite. You have a measure of trust in everyone. Now, in this scenario, would you leave your wallet in the middle of the street with your ID and some cash in it and be perfectly safe that it would be returned to you? Think a bit... Isn't it preferable to not leave your wallet there? You really have no need to do just leave it out there, so why risk it? 

Even if it seems that everyone is very honest, sometimes people, even the best ones, fall into temptation. 

The situation with opposite sex friends is very similar. The more you allow exposure of your partner to other potential mates the higher the risk you will lose said partner. 

You may trust but most cheaters were trusted. Most cheating begins without people even realizing it is starting. I think it is quite rare people just "deciding" they are going to start acting with the objective to cheat. Most of the times it just develops and it happens in a kind of snowball effect.

Trust doesn't equate not keeping your wallet in your pocket.

The friendship blanket is used by men as a part of unfocused "game". I keep a certain number of female friends and among these some will develop into something better than that. Some will not, but that doesn't mean that the tension isn't there. 

That's why fair ladies of the forum, being that all men sort of know this, when your husband starts to act (i'm going to use girl magazine language) "controlling", "territorial", "paranoid", "jealous" and other assorted related naming, towards one of your male "friends" it's just because he is a sharp fellow that knows what's what.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> People who are into Gorean culture.


Could you elaborate? I have no clue what Gorean culture has to do with OSFs in a marriage.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

No one needs to spy or babysit a spouse, it is obvious that if a spouse is going to cheat they will. The less chances they have to, the least likely it will happen. Now that said, if a spouse has a complaint or a problem why not go direct to the spouse. We reach out to others because the spouse has been told/made aware of our problem and has not changed. In order to change your spouse you must first change yourself. Why act single if i am married? The work environment is the best place for an affair and it all starts with innapropriateness. Letting spouses go to innecent get togethers or outings is letting potential wolves take whats yours. It all start innocently and cutesy and flirty but it creeps up on both the WS and BS until its toooooo late. So for me, no opposite sex friends, and definitely no excessive drinking even at home while people are visiting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Think of it like this:
> 
> You live in a small town. You know everybody and everyone seems to be honest and polite. You have a measure of trust in everyone. Now, in this scenario, would you leave your wallet in the middle of the street with your ID and some cash in it and be perfectly safe that it would be returned to you? Think a bit... Isn't it preferable to not leave your wallet there? You really have no need to do just leave it out there, so why risk it?
> 
> ...


:iagree: of course. It makes too much sense though so I look forward to some out of context retort or a retort with assumption that have nothing do do with the wisdom of your post.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

There's a good chance it leads to inappropriate behavior which then leads to something worse. I doubt many wives are telling their husband about the guy friend they're sending texts to 100 times a day.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

This isn't the best example because I was young and still in college at the time. I was working summers at a large law firm in the area and of course became friendly with a lot of the summer workers. There was one attractive blond that I started talking to more often and we developed a friendship. She never hid the fact that she had a boyfriend and there as nothing inappropriate going on. We sometimes grabbed lunch together and a couple of times grabbed dinner together. One night we met up for a movie and then for a quick bite to eat. I drove her back to her car in the lot of the movies and our goodbye before her getting out of my car turned into a long make out session with our hands all over each other. It was a quick as that.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Sorry but I choose to save my suspicions for my enemies, not my friends. I think what is happening here is an apples and oranges type of thing. NOBODY said anything about dating a friend, or going to lunches, or having intimate chats, or being alone with OSF's, or GNO's, or bar-hopping, or any of that stuff, just garden variety friends, the kind you invite over for a BBQ., not sex-charged Lotharios or sl*ts. I have never heard that friendship implied possible sexuality. I fought in two wars, for Chrissakes, and I'm not going to live a risk-avoidance , suspicious lifestyle, when I'm home, and I'm not going to have a GF that I have to be suspicious of. Try taking a mature outlook. You can have any level of friendship you want, if a certain person is coming on too strong, you distance yourself from that person. If your partner has a OSF that you are uncomfortable with, you communicate your concern, and deal with it. But to live a rigid, suspicious, jealous, risk-avoidance lifestyle, isn't my idea of a good life.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

costa200 said:


> The situation with opposite sex friends is very similar. The more you allow exposure of your partner to other potential mates the higher the risk you will lose said partner.


Yes. University studies support this notion, too. There is no such thing as a purely platonic opposite friendship unless the women looks like a neaderthal or the man looks like pee wee herman.

There is always sexual tension between opposite sex friends if both are attractive. 

I have never been able to simply be friends with a man, when single,. iIt always eventually emerged that they were hoping for more. 

When married I even discouraged male acquaintances because they would invariably show a competitive side by trying to denigrate my STBEH at some point. 

And those acquaintances did not even know him beyond perhaps seeing him once or twice.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Sorry but I choose to save my suspicions for my enemies, not my friends. I think what is happening here is an apples and oranges type of thing. NOBODY said anything about dating a friend, or going to lunches, or having intimate chats, or being alone with OSF's, or GNO's, or bar-hopping, or any of that stuff, just garden variety friends, the kind you invite over for a BBQ., not sex-charged Lotharios or sl*ts. I have never heard that friendship implied possible sexuality. I fought in two wars, for Chrissakes, and I'm not going to live a risk-avoidance , suspicious lifestyle, when I'm home, and I'm not going to have a GF that I have to be suspicious of. Try taking a mature outlook. You can have any level of friendship you want, if a certain person is coming on too strong, you distance yourself from that person. If your partner has a OSF that you are uncomfortable with, you communicate your concern, and deal with it. But to live a rigid, suspicious, jealous, risk-avoidance lifestyle, isn't my idea of a good life.


I don't think having boundries inside of a marriage is a bad thing. The relationship is the most important thing not all of the outside nonsense. We all know and have seen what same sex friendships lead to a lot of times.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

costa200 said:


> Think of it like this:
> 
> You live in a small town. You know everybody and everyone seems to be honest and polite. You have a measure of trust in everyone. Now, in this scenario, would you leave your wallet in the middle of the street with your ID and some cash in it and be perfectly safe that it would be returned to you? Think a bit... Isn't it preferable to not leave your wallet there? You really have no need to do just leave it out there, so why risk it?
> 
> ...


Costa, with all due respect, my GF is NOT my wallet. She is her own wallet. I don't own her, don't want to control her, and don't want to be anything other than her BF. She makes her decisions, I make mine.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Sorry but I choose to save my suspicions for my enemies, not my friends. I think what is happening here is an apples and oranges type of thing. NOBODY said anything about dating a friend, or going to lunches, or having intimate chats, or being alone with OSF's, or GNO's, or bar-hopping, or any of that stuff, just garden variety friends, the kind you invite over for a BBQ., not sex-charged Lotharios or sl*ts. I have never heard that friendship implied possible sexuality. I fought in two wars, for Chrissakes, and I'm not going to live a risk-avoidance , suspicious lifestyle, when I'm home, and I'm not going to have a GF that I have to be suspicious of. Try taking a mature outlook. You can have any level of friendship you want, if a certain person is coming on too strong, you distance yourself from that person. If your partner has a OSF that you are uncomfortable with, you communicate your concern, and deal with it. But to live a rigid, suspicious, jealous, risk-avoidance lifestyle, isn't my idea of a good life.


As long as the friendship involves your significant other in every meeting, than IMO, an opposite friendship is okay. 

I am talking of GNO and Bno's and solo trips. 

I was really the most unjealous spouse their could be. 

I wanted to trust my husband. I gave him a lot of freedom. 

I always sort of looked down on jealous women or snoopy women or possessive women who appeared to be mate guarding all the time. 

Now, I feel bad about feeling that way because I now wonder why they were acting that way. Had the spouse cheated. 

In my False R, I was so suspicious it made me ill. Every time my STBEH looked at a blonde I would become suspicious. 

I hated being like that. 

Still, giving him his freedom did not keep him faithful and his freedoms were times used to meet with OW and spend our money on her.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> There's a good chance it leads to inappropriate behavior which then leads to something worse. I doubt many wives are telling their husband about the guy friend they're sending texts to 100 times a day.


Exactly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Sorry but I choose to save my suspicions for my enemies, not my friends. I think what is happening here is an apples and oranges type of thing. NOBODY said anything about dating a friend, or going to lunches, or having intimate chats, or being alone with OSF's, or GNO's, or bar-hopping, or any of that stuff, just garden variety friends, the kind you invite over for a BBQ., not sex-charged Lotharios or sl*ts. I have never heard that friendship implied possible sexuality. I fought in two wars, for Chrissakes, and I'm not going to live a risk-avoidance , suspicious lifestyle, when I'm home, and I'm not going to have a GF that I have to be suspicious of. Try taking a mature outlook. You can have any level of friendship you want, if a certain person is coming on too strong, you distance yourself from that person. If your partner has a OSF that you are uncomfortable with, you communicate your concern, and deal with it. But to live a rigid, suspicious, jealous, risk-avoidance lifestyle, isn't my idea of a good life.


*Much respect for your time in service.*


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> No one needs to spy or babysit a spouse, it is obvious that if a spouse is going to cheat they will. The less chances they have to, the least likely it will happen. Now that said, if a spouse has a complaint or a problem why not go direct to the spouse. We reach out to others because the spouse has been told/made aware of our problem and has not changed. In order to change your spouse you must first change yourself. Why act single if i am married? The work environment is the best place for an affair and it all starts with innapropriateness. Letting spouses go to innecent get togethers or outings is letting potential wolves take whats yours. It all start innocently and cutesy and flirty but it creeps up on both the WS and BS until its toooooo late. So for me, no opposite sex friends, and definitely no excessive drinking even at home while people are visiting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 "Take what is yours?" I don't own my GF, and don't want to. As a black guy, ownership of another person, isn't a particularly good thing to talk about.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Costa, with all due respect, my GF is NOT my wallet. She is her own wallet. I don't own her, don't want to control her, and don't want to be anything other than her BF. She makes her decisions, I make mine.


Hey that's great... I'm pretty sure none of those villagers will try to get a hold. They are, after all, all honest.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Costa, with all due respect, my GF is NOT my wallet. She is her own wallet. I don't own her, don't want to control her, and don't want to be anything other than her BF. She makes her decisions, I make mine.


To me it seems like personal freedom and personal responsibility are very important to you. Enough so that you feel this would compromise your integrity. If that's an accurate assumption then I respect how you came to your opinion on this subject.

Those are important to me as well however I don't feel like my differing stance on this compromises my integrity. Plus I think you see the extreme view of this which I don't feel like I am.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> *Much respect for your time in service.*


Your welcome, Thundarr, but Phooey Just a Marine Grunt doing what every other Marine does, nothing special.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Its not unhealthy to be jealous. Its natural to a certain extent. I would not text another woman even if its small talk, weather talk, or how are you talk because even if my wife allowed it. Its unneccessary, if i want an opposite sex friend, i can always call my sister or my mother, or wait... MY wife, what could be more neccessary? Space? Privacy, i think thats a privelage for single grown ups, even teens living under their parents room expect privacy, thats immature needing of "privacy", should have been outgrown of after puberty before you married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

costa200 said:


> Hey that's great... I'm pretty sure none of those villagers will try to get a hold. They are, after all, all honest.


Didn't say they were, BUT If they aren't, THEN I kick some ass. I believe in Presumption of innocence, apparently many posters believe otherwise.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Badblood said:


> "Take what is yours?" I don't own my GF, and don't want to. As a black guy, ownership of another person, isn't a particularly good thing to talk about.


Its not owning someone else, its giving yourself to/for someone else and expecting no less in return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Didn't say they were, BUT If they aren't, THEN I kick some ass. I believe in Presumption of innocence, apparently many posters believe otherwise.


I understand your point
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> To me it seems like personal freedom and personal responsibility are very important to you. Enough so that you feel this would compromise your integrity. If that's an accurate assumption then I respect how you came to your opinion on this subject.
> 
> Those are important to me as well however I don't feel like my differing stance on this compromises my integrity. Plus I think you see the extreme view of this which I don't feel like I am.


I believe that individual freedom AND individual responsibility are THE most important elements of human character, and you can't really have one without the other. I am a free man, and I want a free woman to be my partner, not my property.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> ...even teens living under their parents room expect privacy, thats immature needing of "privacy"


 My middle son thought he was entitled to privacy until I took the bedroom door off of the hinges and removed all electronics from the room for a month.

Things went much better after that. Door slamming and cursing magically disappeared after that. He grew up to be a good man Yea off topic I suppose.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Didn't say they were, BUT If they aren't, THEN I kick some ass. I believe in Presumption of innocence, apparently many posters believe otherwise.


Here's the problem badblood my friend ( and BTW I always enjoy reading your thoughts and posts.)...the problem is that many here were blindsided by their spouse's affair.

They did presume innocence and that is what got them in hot water. 

I think the karmic lesson I was supposed to learn from my spouse's affair is NOT TO BE SO DANGED TRUSTING AND TO ALLOW A SPOUSE SO MUCH FREEDOM.

I always subscribed to the belief that giving someone freedom would prevent cheating because the person you were trusting wouldn't feel locked down and controlled. 

I was wrong, so wrong, and my husbands affair was like a bucket of cold water in the face of my distorted beliefs. 

Also, my STBEH wanted more and more freedom. 

At one point he was going out three nights a week and making excused to run or ride his bike on weekends where he would be gone three or four hours. 

A good exercise session need not last more than an hour for health benefits. Where was he? With the OW, while her husband was away on a business trip and her kids were with the nanny.

In addition he was taking Two nights for manufactured business meetings and one for the OW.

Too much privacy in a marriage is a reason to be suspicious. 

Some cheaters boil the frog by asking for more time to be out and at first they are not cheating, but then as the faithful spouse gets used to them going out, they start to look around for an affair partner.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Didn't say they were, BUT If they aren't, THEN I kick some ass. I believe in Presumption of innocence, apparently many posters believe otherwise.


Don't go lumping everyone together and going to the extreme. All the females here have given their real life experiences of OSFs eventually wanting more, so please don't gloss over that. 

You have casual female acquaintances, fine. More power to you. I've had OSFs acquaintances too, and so have my fWW. What most people are talking about are those close OSF that are too close for comfort, as in confiding deep personal issues together, being alone together, going for coffee or meals together, that sort of thing.

That's what a lot people are talking about here.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Didn't say they were, BUT If they aren't, THEN I kick some ass. I believe in Presumption of innocence, apparently many posters believe otherwise.


Hehehe! I can relate to that, but i try to limit collateral damage!


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Look, I'm not saying you can't have boundaries in your relationships (but the fewer the better) , and I'm not saying you can't be concerned/jealous when those boundaries are crossed. What I am saying is that you can base your relationship on love, trust, freedom and communication, or you can keep it closed, risk-free, and restricted. Which seems healthier to you?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Look, I'm not saying you can't have boundaries in your relationships (but the fewer the better) , and I'm not saying you can't be concerned/jealous when those boundaries are crossed. What I am saying is that you can base your relationship on love, trust, freedom and communication, or you can keep it closed, risk-free, and restricted. Which seems healthier to you?


The latter SEEMS HEALTHIER. I hear you. I really really do. And, I think this thread is a healthy discussion.

Still, been there done that because it seemed.....well, healthier. 

The fact is that studies show that spouses that are suspicious and jealous get cheated on less. 

A relationship in which one person wants too much freedom to go out solo, is a risky one. 

Or at the very least it suggests that the one who insists on going out solo is thinking of cheating. 

I really never enjoyed going out without my husband. 

He wanted me too, but I just didn't need to. 

I let him go out and I got screwed or more aptly his girlfriend got screwed LOL....and based on her husband's present wrath, She is really getting screwed now, in more ways than one and not in the way she expected. LOL.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Here's the problem badblood my friend ( and BTW I always enjoy reading your thoughts and posts.)...the problem is that many here were blindsided by their spouse's affair.
> 
> They did presume innocence and that is what got them in hot water.
> 
> ...


Sara, it wasn't the freedom that caused your problems , it was your H's reasons for wanting it.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> My middle son thought he was entitled to privacy until I took the bedroom door off of the hinges and removed all electronics from the room for a month.
> 
> Things went much better after that. Door slamming and cursing magically disappeared after that. He grew up to be a good man Yea off topic I suppose.


Off-topic, maybe, but effective.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Look, I'm not saying you can't have boundaries in your relationships (but the fewer the better) , and I'm not saying you can't be concerned/jealous when those boundaries are crossed. What I am saying is that you can base your relationship on love, trust, freedom and communication, or you can keep it closed, risk-free, and restricted. Which seems healthier to you?


Absolutely. Writing sometimes doesn't convey all the message. A relationship must have a measure of trust. You can't stop another person from doing their own thing. But the boundaries must be watched, that is all. 

For example, lets say your lady goes to a movie with a female friend (one of those chick flics you wouldn't be caught dead watching). Perfectly ok. 

Now your lady gets home from work and tells you: 

"will you feed the kids? I have to meet up with John in a while. We are going to watch "Bridget Jone's Diary IV"! See ya later, don't wait up!" 


This is what i'm talking about. I'm pretty sure you would see this John as a Bullseye target for your choice assault rifle wouldn't you?

There is being a controlling jerk and then there is being blind. The same activity but the gender, unless "John" is one huge homosexual, makes all the difference.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Look, I'm not saying you can't have boundaries in your relationships (but the fewer the better) , and I'm not saying you can't be concerned/jealous when those boundaries are crossed. What I am saying is that you can base your relationship on love, trust, freedom and communication, or you can keep it closed, risk-free, and restricted. Which seems healthier to you?


I buy the intent of your argument. This just happens to be one of the boundaries that I think is healthy to maintain.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Sorry but I choose to save my suspicions for my enemies, not my friends. I think what is happening here is an apples and oranges type of thing. NOBODY said anything about dating a friend, or going to lunches, or having intimate chats, or being alone with OSF's, or GNO's, or bar-hopping, or any of that stuff, just garden variety friends, the kind you invite over for a BBQ., not sex-charged Lotharios or sl*ts. I have never heard that friendship implied possible sexuality. I fought in two wars, for Chrissakes, and I'm not going to live a risk-avoidance , suspicious lifestyle, when I'm home, and I'm not going to have a GF that I have to be suspicious of. Try taking a mature outlook. You can have any level of friendship you want, if a certain person is coming on too strong, you distance yourself from that person. If your partner has a OSF that you are uncomfortable with, you communicate your concern, and deal with it. But to live a rigid, suspicious, jealous, risk-avoidance lifestyle, isn't my idea of a good life.


That's what this post is about, LMH


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Sara, it wasn't the freedom that caused your problems , it was your H's reasons for wanting it.


Perhaps you are right. 

I can't read STBEH's mind and will never likely know the truth. 

Was it a chicken or egg thing.....you know... did he cheat because he had the freedom to do so without me being suspicious and took advantage of the freedom. 

Or did the freedom give him the opportunity to cheat. 

All, I know is that in my circle of friends I was the only wife who gave my STBEH so much freedom and he is the only spouse in that circle that cheated.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Sorry but I choose to save my suspicions for my enemies, not my friends. I think what is happening here is an apples and oranges type of thing. NOBODY said anything about dating a friend, or going to lunches, or having intimate chats, or being alone with OSF's, or GNO's, or bar-hopping, or any of that stuff, just garden variety friends, the kind you invite over for a BBQ., not sex-charged Lotharios or sl*ts. I have never heard that friendship implied possible sexuality. I fought in two wars, for Chrissakes, and I'm not going to live a risk-avoidance , suspicious lifestyle, when I'm home, and I'm not going to have a GF that I have to be suspicious of. Try taking a mature outlook. You can have any level of friendship you want, if a certain person is coming on too strong, you distance yourself from that person. If your partner has a OSF that you are uncomfortable with, you communicate your concern, and deal with it. But to live a rigid, suspicious, jealous, risk-avoidance lifestyle,
> isn't my idea of a good life.
> 
> 
> ...


It's clearly about that to you. If it were about that to me then I would have said "That's what this post is about".


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> ... All, I know is that in my circle of friends I was the only wife who gave my STBEH so much freedom and he is the only spouse in that circle that cheated.


And that scenario plays out over and over. Many do not plan on cheating.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

BTW, I really like this thread. It shows what TAM can be. WE have all had our say, and while we disagree, there hasn't been any of the personal rancor that have caused so much trouble in other threads, and it's because of the posters who have posted here. I consider all of you, thoughtful, interesting people, and wouldn't mind being friends with you, in RL.......REGARDLESS OF GENDER. LOL


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> BTW, I really like this thread. It shows what TAM can be. WE have all had our say, and while we disagree, there hasn't been any of the personal rancor that have caused so much trouble in other threads, and it's because of the posters who have posted here. I consider all of you, thoughtful, interesting people, and wouldn't mind being friends with you, in RL.......REGARDLESS OF GENDER. LOL


:iagree: 100%. But no lunch dates for me ladies .


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Except , of course , for Costa200. I'm not letting that guy NEAR my wallet!!!! Just Kidding!!


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Except , of course , for Costa200. I'm not letting that guy NEAR my wallet!!!! Just Kidding!!


No problem buddy, as long as your wallet isn't good looking and doesn't have that magnetism that i like you have nothing to worry about.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Yes it is. A marriage is a partnership of two sovereign individuals, each of whom has the rights of every other adult human being.


Maybe in your relationship. If you have to worry about rights you have MUCH bigger problems. I guess this just validates that my wife an I have a better then average intimacy in our marriage than others. We have had our challenegs as everyone has.

We do things with the Policy Of Joint Agreement.
POJA. It takes a lot of love caring and trust to being able to set your self aside for the betterment of the couple. As long as it is equitable over time it works. We look out for each other and it has paid dividends. Can all couples do this? Apparently not.
But my marriage is #1 to me.

If I took the attitude that I will choose and it it none of my wifes business I would have been divorced now for 15 years from her. She had a problem with a relationship I had. I truly thought we were just close friends. But I listened to my wife. It turned out she was very right. YMMV however. 

Marriage is not black and white. Every marriage has some degree of open marriage to it. Shades of gray. Not talking about swinging. I am talking about shades of gray as far as folks outside the couple are concerned. Like friends.

My wife and I are individuals but we agreed to not be soverign. Our marriage must be different then.

So I am speaking from one who is close to his wife and you are one who has gone through some things that leads you to be more independent. I get that. Good for you. I think you still have some real anger. I am not without compassion here.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I love it when someone takes something constructive and spins it around to some extreme. Yea in setting in her work parking lot with binoculars now. Geez, Don't think you know what I do.
> 
> NO I don't have to monitor anything. We both know it's not appropriate and we don't do it. It would be interesting to know what exactly I said to make you think I'm monitoring her every move?


I do not monitor my wife. I am in tune with my wife. Big difference. She has good boundaries. It is very rare that I will even comment about something. 

My concerns for my wife are more about her driving late at night and something happening with her vehicle or driving through a desolate part of the county where women have been know to be forced off the road and attacked. That kinda thing. I have never been ok with my wife driving long distances without me. Not to save money for sure. I do not mind paying for air flights and rental cars on the other end. She is too important to me. If she is going to have to stay at a hotel, it is a good one that is reasonably safe. She is a very competent lady who can take care of herself but we still look out for each other.

I did not marry a party girl. I would not have the energy to have to monitor my wife. I would not want her if I had to do that.

But we look out for each other and if she looked to be crossing a boundary I would engage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

costa200 said:


> Absolutely. Writing sometimes doesn't convey all the message. A relationship must have a measure of trust. You can't stop another person from doing their own thing. But the boundaries must be watched, that is all.
> 
> For example, lets say your lady goes to a movie with a female friend (one of those chick flics you wouldn't be caught dead watching). Perfectly ok.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> And that scenario plays out over and over. Many do not plan on cheating.




Exactly! And then the cheaters blame the spouse for not paying attention or ignoring them. Well i wouldnt ignore her, id have her stay home with me instead of dilly dallying with john" and i dont care if john is a big "****"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Look, I'm not saying you can't have boundaries in your relationships (but the fewer the better) , and I'm not saying you can't be concerned/jealous when those boundaries are crossed. What I am saying is that you can base your relationship on love, trust, freedom and communication, or you can keep it closed, risk-free, and restricted. Which seems healthier to you?


The kind of trust you imply here is blind. Blind trust leads to the environment that Sara8 mentioned with her husband.



Sara8 said:


> Was it a chicken or egg thing.....you know... did he cheat because he had the freedom to do so without me being suspicious and took advantage of the freedom.
> 
> Or did the freedom give him the opportunity to cheat.
> 
> All, I know is that in my circle of friends I was the only wife who gave my STBEH so much freedom and he is the only spouse in that circle that cheated.


There is a middle ground where you can provide freedom with transparency. Transparency serves to reinforce the trust and to keep it from being blind. Without a lot of transparency and joint decision making each spouse doesn't really know if the boundaries are being met.

For instance the example that costa200 mentions violates our marriages boundaries and priorities.

Originally Posted by costa200 
_Absolutely. Writing sometimes doesn't convey all the message. A relationship must have a measure of trust. You can't stop another person from doing their own thing. But the boundaries must be watched, that is all. 

For example, lets say your lady goes to a movie with a female friend (one of those chick flics you wouldn't be caught dead watching). Perfectly ok. 

Now your lady gets home from work and tells you: 

"will you feed the kids? I have to meet up with John in a while. We are going to watch "Bridget Jone's Diary IV"! See ya later, don't wait up!" _

First my wife and I would schedule time with friends and not blindside the other with going out. We work with each other to prioritize our events. So if I wasn't interested in seeing the move and/or wanted to do something else and it didn't disrupt our schedules then I would be fine with her going out with a friend I knew that would be male. This is prioritizing the marriage. I would also be made aware of the movie times etc and when I should expect her back and I would check up on that. Furthermore we would probably discuss the movie and how "John" was doing etc. These interactions keep your gut in tap with your spouse. You can tell if something is not going right through your gut. Trust your gut.

Indeed if my wife said that to me one evening with no warning it would be a WTF moment and I would refuse. Plain and simple. That kind of action is prioritizing someone else over your spouse blatently. Not allowed by either of us.

Trust but verify. My wife always talks to be about climbing. She doesn't climb at all but I keep her in tune with who I am with male or female and what is going on in their lives. This is also a way we bond when we don't do things together. Its like talking about how your work day went and all of the work day gossip. It's taking an interest in your spouse even for those things that you don't do with them.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> I do not monitor my wife. I am in tune with my wife. Big difference. She has good boundaries. It is very rare that I will even comment about something.
> 
> My concerns for my wife are more about her driving late at night and something happening with her vehicle or driving through a desolate part of the county where women have been know to be forced off the road and attacked. That kinda thing. I have never been ok with my wife driving long distances without me. Not to save money for sure. I do not mind paying for air flights and rental cars on the other end. She is too important to me. If she is going to have to stay at a hotel, it is a good one that is reasonably safe. She is a very competent lady who can take care of herself but we still look out for each other.
> 
> ...


 Exactly and if a spouse was a party peraon, marriage is a relationship dedicated to one person, every decision has to have that other person involved or in mind. None of this "well she has her own life i have mine, we make our own choices, she can do whatever so can i". What kind of effort is that to establish fruition in any relationship. Marriage is sacrifice for your spouse and children, putting your spouse and family before you. These thoughts of we cant OWN people is true but if you are in a relationship with a person who doesnt care or mind what you do and trusts you completely etc well id have second thougts on if that person even loves me as i love them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

One thing is that most of the time things have gone on before you notice a boundary or several boundaries have been crossed. How many stories do we read about someone having a gut feeling and checking their spouses phone or the cell phone records. Only to find out they have been non stop texting somebody of the opposite sex?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> One thing is that most of the time things have gone on before you notice a boundary or several boundaries have been crossed. How many stories do we read about someone having a gut feeling and checking their spouses phone or the cell phone records. Only to find out they have been non stop texting somebody of the opposite sex?


Right. They will come here and ask if they are being paranoid. Then find out they are way way down the road with things. Best to stay tuned in.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Right. They will come here and ask if they are being paranoid. Then find out they are way way down the road with things. Best to stay tuned in.


I haven't been here long and I already see that pattern. I have to figure out how to tell them what I think without sounding jaded.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Maybe in your relationship. If you have to worry about rights you have MUCH bigger problems. I guess this just validates that my wife an I have a better then average intimacy in our marriage than others. We have had our challenegs as everyone has.
> 
> We do things with the Policy Of Joint Agreement.
> POJA. It takes a lot of love caring and trust to being able to set your self aside for the betterment of the couple. As long as it is equitable over time it works. We look out for each other and it has paid dividends. Can all couples do this? Apparently not.
> ...


I'm familiar with the Harley's, and their program and think that the POJA is a worthwhile concept. Ent, I really have no anger, I'm just a direct person. The only emotion I have towards my ex wife is pity.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I haven't been here long and I already see that pattern. I have to figure out how to tell them what I think without sounding jaded.


There is tact and there is bending to the PC mentality we may not share. They are not same thing. 

Also when tact is obviously failing being blunt can actually be more helpful to folks. Bluntness can be honest but it also comes with some risk. 

Frankly some threads are flat calculated setups of bait and switch for someone's amusement it seems.

Mainly I hate to see anyone sacrificing their dignity. It comes down to that.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Badblood said:


> I'm familiar with the Harley's, and their program and think that the POJA is a worthwhile concept. Ent, I really have no anger, I'm just a direct person. The only emotion I have towards my ex wife is pity.


Gotcha. I understand. 

I actually really like directness. 

I aslo realize one size does not fit all. Wow that was freudian.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

I agree with Badbold who says 'my partner is not my property' but I also agree with the rest of the group who's against OFS. 
I can see where both sides are coming from.

The best would be to find a balance between '_my partner is free to hang out with whoever he/she wants_' and '_my partner should not have OFS_'.

I know, it's easier said than done but living with extreme ideas is never healthy for the relationship.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> I agree with Badbold who says 'my partner is not my property' but I also agree with the rest of the group who's against OFS.
> I can see where both sides are coming from.
> 
> The best would be to find a balance between '_my partner is free to hang out with whoever he/she wants_' and '_my partner should not have OFS_'.
> ...


I agree with that. It's just as unhealthy to say NEVER as it is to say NEVER A PROBLEM.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Right. They will come here and ask if they are being paranoid. Then find out they are way way down the road with things. Best to stay tuned in.


:iagree:

By the time your gut is screaming at you, its too late and has crossed into a very minimum of a PA. I think I've only seen at most, a couple of stories where a spouse comes here and has been able to stop the close friendship from fully evolving into an EA. But far too often, a BS thinks it might be an EA, only to find out later, after the advice is given to investigate, that its been a full blown PA where their WS has had sex multiple times.

The most common result from having a close OSF becomes: * He or She is Just a Friend.*


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

How To Handle A Controlling Spouse


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Actually, jealousy is an emotion, and like all human emotions, it is neither good nor bad. You can't help how you feel. You can, however, control how you react to an emotion. It's the reaction that is healthy, or unhealthy.


You hit the nail on the head, iheartlife! When I was growing up my mom used to say, "You can't help how you feel. But, you can control what you do...." I wish she were here with me now.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

There's no such thing as too much freedom, but there is such a thing as irresponsible behavior. Sara's situation is a case in point. She is not to blame for his freedom, he is to blame for not using it wisely.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> By the time your gut is screaming at you, its too late and has crossed into a very minimum of a PA. I think I've only seen at most, a couple of stories where a spouse comes here and has been able to stop the close friendship from fully evolving into an EA. But far too often, a BS thinks it might be an EA, only to find out later, after the advice is given to investigate, that its been a full blown PA where their WS has had sex multiple times.
> 
> The most common result from having a close OSF becomes: * He or She is Just a Friend.*



This is very true. In my situation I believe I was extremely lucky. Shortly before I discovered all the text messaging the previous month the OM's wife discovered it as well. It was an extra large cold towel thrown onto the entire situation. Let me stress though that without both spouses involved that might not of happened. In other words if I didn't become aware of some things.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

> First my wife and I would schedule time with friends and not blindside the other with going out. We work with each other to prioritize our events. So if I wasn't interested in seeing the move and/or wanted to do something else and it didn't disrupt our schedules then I would be fine with her going out with a friend I knew that would be male. This is prioritizing the marriage. I would also be made aware of the movie times etc and when I should expect her back and I would check up on that. Furthermore we would probably discuss the movie and how "John" was doing etc. These interactions keep your gut in tap with your spouse. You can tell if something is not going right through your gut. Trust your gut.


My husband and I check in with each other several times throughout the day. Sometimes, it's just a quick, "Hey, baby, how's your day going?" and other times it's about bigger things going on. We know what's happening in each other's day on a fluid, open basis. 

There would not be one single circumstance that either of us would consider ok for the other to meet a "friend" of the opposite sex socially for lunch, drinks, or a movie, for example. We both work long hours, have four kids to accommodate, a house to keep organized and a marriage to nurture. My husband going for a round of golf with the guys, or having a drink with a buddy in the shop after work...totally okie-dokie...from time to time. With another woman other than his sister or mother? NFW. If I have free time to spend with a male, it's my husband or one of our sons. I don't consider myself being controlled or controlling for this to be a very basic, selfless way of caring for your marriage.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

Badblood said:


> There's no such thing as too much freedom, but there is such a thing as irresponsible behavior. Sara's situation is a case in point. She is not to blame for his freedom, he is to blame for not using it wisely.


And, there is actually such a thing as too much freedom. See cheating spouse threads, or any wild and unruly teenager...

Boundaries for your children, your marriage, your career show enormous care for them.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

Well, some people prefer to be submissive.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> Well, some people prefer to be submissive.


I'm sure some do. You let us know when you find them. You'll need to look further than this board, but good luck.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

librarydragon said:


> I don't consider myself being controlled or controlling for this to be a very basic, selfless way of caring for your marriage.


This


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Every new thread that pops up lately seems to make the argument against OSF valid.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> This


Look up selfless in the dictionary. Look up submissive afterward. When you find two equal definitions for the two different words, report back.

I have a different word from the dictionary I'd like to use right now, but the one I'm choosing to go with is "restraint."


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> Every new thread that pops up lately seems to make the argument against OSF valid.


Yup.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

If any of you had a realtor as a spouse would you insist that him/her pass on any opposite sex clients to a colleague? Realtors often meet clients alone in vacant homes.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

This topic seems to be everywhere. If someone can be friends with people of the opposite sex before marriage, don't see why that should change while married.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

librarydragon said:


> And, there is actually such a thing as too much freedom. See cheating spouse threads, or any wild and unruly teenager...
> 
> Boundaries for your children, your marriage, your career show enormous care for them.


Read my post again. You take one statement, but ignore the qualifier.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

gbrad said:


> This topic seems to be everywhere. If someone can be friends with people of the opposite sex before marriage, don't see why that should change while married.


Interesting. I can see how you feel this way considering you want to divorce your wife because you aren't attracted to her (you claimed you never were) and that you have a "work wife"



gbrad said:


> Anyone else ever use these phrases with their spouse. My wife has used the phrase work wife with me many times refering to a friend of mine at work. That friend from work has become like my best friend over the years. Once in a birthday card she even signed it, *from your work wives*. I think the phrase itself is funny, just curious as to what others think.


And speaking of the term "work wife" or "work husband". I never heard the term until recently, when I went to lunch with my trainer and another person. He introduced her to me as his work wife and he was her work husband. WTF? They're both married. I remember I was riding with him and we able to go to lunch with his work wife and he was pissed.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

To add to my above post:

If my fWW came home and referred to one of her male coworkers as her "work husband", the sh!t will hit the fan.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> 'my partner is not my property'


This idea of "ownership" of "property" seems to be thrown around much whenever one of the partners dares to expose discomfort with a certain activity or state of things. Specially when it involves people from the opposite sex.

For me, if i feel the need to say something to stop a behavior or express my disagreement with something then it is not because of a sense of ownership or property. 

It is however due to the fact that i expect my partner to behave within certain limits. She is, in fact, completely free to ignore those limits, just as i'm then free to end the relationship and move on. In my relationship this is perfectly clear and it is bidirectional.

Everyone is free, but we are both accountable to our actions. We don't own each other but in order to call the other "my partner" there are conditions we must meet. That is all.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I have heard this term "work wives"....

My vet killed himself...

Next time I went into the office, one of his female employees used this term and said how much they all missed him...

He lived in my neighborhood. I found out his wife was about to leave him....I always wondered if these "work wives" had anything to do with it.......


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

gbrad said:


> This topic seems to be everywhere. If someone can be friends with people of the opposite sex before marriage, don't see why that should change while married.


I'm sorry but as far as reasoning goes this might be one of the dumbest things I have ever seen posted.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

costa200 said:


> This idea of "ownership" of "property" seems to be thrown around much whenever one of the partners dares to expose discomfort with a certain activity or state of things. Specially when it involves people from the opposite sex.


Urban Dictionary: possessive


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

gbrad said:


> This topic seems to be everywhere. If someone can be friends with people of the opposite sex before marriage, don't see why that should change while married.


I formally, seriously, and totally, with a touch of formality, declare +1

There's no reason to throw friends away unless there is a specific problem.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> I formally, seriously, and totally, with a touch of formality, declare +1
> 
> There's no reason to throw friends away unless there is a specific problem.


It depends on what a partner in a marriage expects the friendship to be. Once you decide to get married you're not living the single life anymore. If that's what you prefere then don't get married.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> It depends on what a partner in a marriage expects the friendship to be. Once you decide to get married you're not living the single life anymore. If that's what you prefere then don't get married.


There is no reason for the friends to change unless there is infidelity involved.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> I formally, seriously, and totally, with a touch of formality, declare +1
> 
> There's no reason to throw friends away unless there is a specific problem.


In the end it all depends on how one's spouse or SO feels about it. If your partner doesn't have a problem with it, then it's fine. That's what works for your relationship. 

If your spouse doesn't agree with it, then I think you have a choice to make: having the freedom to have opposite sex friends or your spouse. I don't think there is any working out the differences here when one spouse doesn't agree. It's all or nothing.

I can tell you this, in my house, it ain't happenin' for either one of us. I'll tell you that when my wife tried it (sort of), things got ugly.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> There is no reason for the friends to change unless there is infidelity involved.


Again, it's more to do with the activities than whether you consider them a friend. I just don't find it approprite for example for opposite sex friends to be going to moves or dinners together alone when one or both of those people are married.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> There is no reason for the friends to change unless there is infidelity involved.


Not a convincing argument Piggy ... even with the cute puppies.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> Urban Dictionary: possessive


My dear person i frankly don't give a damn. This is the 21st. Nobody is forcing anyone. If my partner can't take it she can leave. I'm not sacrificing my happiness to your ideals and a life philosophy that often leads to relationship breakdown.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

costa200 said:


> My dear person i frankly don't give a damn. This is the 21st. Nobody is forcing anyone. If my partner can't take it she can leave. I'm not sacrificing my happiness to your ideals and a life philosophy that often leads to relationship breakdown.


- swearing won't get you what you want
- "if xxx can't take it she can leave" sounds like an ultimatum, which by definition is a demand or by force.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Too many people are completely missing the point. Nobody is saying you dump all your friends once you get married. The point is you simply cannot live the same lifestyle and engage in the same activities. A married man or woman going out alone with a member of the opposite sex that's not their spouse to me is just not appropriate. It doesn't mean they still can't have friendships but it should involve the spouse. Go out as a group with his or her significant other for example.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> - swearing won't get you what you want
> - "if xxx can't take it she can leave" sounds like an ultimatum, which by definition is a demand or by force.


Oh holier than thou entity, i fully retract my unacceptable wording. 

On the other thing, it's not a demand, it's not an ultimatum, it is fact. We both know each other's limits and the consequences of crossing them. We have no issues, we have no problems, we haven't have a fight in years. We love each other's company. 

We are happy. Now, why would we stop being "possessive" of one another? Just to fit the crappy "modern" (not really, more the cultural background of some people) way that more often than not results in pain for everyone? No thanks! 

BTW... I still don't give a damn! And being a bit sanctimonious willy nilly won't help anyone.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Oh holier than thou entity, i fully retract my unacceptable wording.
> 
> On the other thing, it's not a demand, it's not an ultimatum, it is fact. We both know each other's limits and the consequences of crossing them. We have no issues, we have no problems, we haven't have a fight in years. We love each other's company.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a classic Gorean relationship.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> Sounds like a classic Gorean relationship.


You don't know what a Gorean is. You do like to use names and adjectives as labels. At least use it properly. 

A Gorean relationship is described as a hierarchical relationship of master and slave. Not interchangeable by it's own nature. 

This is not at all about two people who know their boundaries and commit to one another fully knowing the frames in which the relationship is set, in the very purest form of equality. Her rules are my rules. My rules are her rules. This is what makes it "our rules".


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> To add to my above post:
> 
> If my fWW came home and referred to one of her male coworkers as her "work husband", the sh!t will hit the fan.


LMH, that would suck pretty bad.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

costa200 said:


> This idea of "ownership" of "property" seems to be thrown around much whenever one of the partners dares to expose discomfort with a certain activity or state of things. Specially when it involves people from the opposite sex.
> 
> For me, if i feel the need to say something to stop a behavior or express my disagreement with something then it is not because of a sense of ownership or property.
> 
> ...


I have very little problem with this, actually, but it does shoot your wallet analogy in the butt, doesn't it?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> I'm sorry but as far as reasoning goes this might be one of the dumbest things I have ever seen posted.


 It's his opinion, and he has a right to speak it. Be careful about "civility and respect".


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> In the end it all depends on how one's spouse or SO feels about it. If your partner doesn't have a problem with it, then it's fine. That's what works for your relationship.
> 
> If your spouse doesn't agree with it, then I think you have a choice to make: having the freedom to have opposite sex friends or your spouse. I don't think there is any working out the differences here when one spouse doesn't agree. It's all or nothing.
> 
> I can tell you this, in my house, it ain't happenin' for either one of us. I'll tell you that when my wife tried it (sort of), things got ugly.


The argument that we never hear of spouses stopping it before it becomes an emotional affair? Well this could be one time it happened.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> Too many people are completely missing the point. Nobody is saying you dump all your friends once you get married. The point is you simply cannot live the same lifestyle and engage in the same activities. A married man or woman going out alone with a member of the opposite sex that's not their spouse to me is just not appropriate. It doesn't mean they still can't have friendships but it should involve the spouse. Go out as a group with his or her significant other for example.


MakingSenseofIt makes so much sense. :smthumbup:


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> Sounds like a classic Gorean relationship.


Do you know the definition of Gorean? I looked it up the last time it was mentioned and I don't see what it has to do with OSF? 

Seriously, I would honestly like to know.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> I have very little problem with this, actually, but it does shoot your wallet analogy in the butt, doesn't it?


The wallet thing was just about exposing something you value to misplacement. The idea of "property" was so far away from my mind that i didn't even consider some might think i was going that way.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> The argument that we never hear of spouses stopping it before it becomes an emotional affair? Well this could be one time it happened.


Well, I did , sort of. Here is my story: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ition-anyway-did-i-over-react.html#post726990, you can decide if it relates.

People can do what they want; everyone is different, but it's not happening in my home. Why allow for a random outcome that could be disastrous for both spouses when the situation can be controlled.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

costa200 said:


> The wallet thing was just about exposing something you value to misplacement. The idea of "property" was so far away from my mind that i didn't even consider some might think i was going that way.


Just Kidding, Costa.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gbrad said:


> This topic seems to be everywhere. If someone can be friends with people of the opposite sex before marriage, don't see why that should change while married.


If one dates others before they marry why not after marriage?

If someone has sex with other people before marriage then why not after they marry?

See how that does not make sense either?

So you are saying is that nothing changes after marriage. Why marry then?

What changes and what does not change in marriage should be worked out optimally before one gets married IMO.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Interesting. I can see how you feel this way considering you want to divorce your wife because you aren't attracted to her (you claimed you never were) and that you have a "work wife"
> 
> 
> 
> And speaking of the term "work wife" or "work husband". I never heard the term until recently, when I went to lunch with my trainer and another person. He introduced her to me as his work wife and he was her work husband. WTF? They're both married. I remember I was riding with him and we able to go to lunch with his work wife and he was pissed.


Incredibly disrespectful. I have heard this from people as put down. Nothing to be proud of. Some folks are f^d up I guess.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

costa200 said:


> This idea of "ownership" of "property" seems to be thrown around much whenever one of the partners dares to expose discomfort with a certain activity or state of things. Specially when it involves people from the opposite sex.
> 
> For me, if i feel the need to say something to stop a behavior or express my disagreement with something then it is not because of a sense of ownership or property.
> 
> ...


My wife is my wife. I am her husband. We are partners. Some folks just don't get the concept. They are still thinking single. We are comitted to one another. We are not free agents.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Work spouse??? I had to google for it.
How can a married person call someone else a work-spouse???
To me, that would be in the same level as an emotional affair [judging from Wikipedia's definition].


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> Urban Dictionary: possessive


I possess my wife often. She loves it. But last night she absolutely possessed me. I loved it. Can't wait until she does it again.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> there is no reason for the friends to change unless there is infidelity involved.


lol. Ufb.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Badblood said:


> It's his opinion, and he has a right to speak it. Be careful about "civility and respect".


Agreed. HINT: The ignore list works folks.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Work spouse??? I had to google for it.
> How can a married person call someone else a work-spouse???
> To me, that would be in the same level as an emotional affair [judging from Wikipedia's definition].


This is why there are so many work place EAs.
People try to legitimize it as they do most forms of infidelity / cake eating.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> lol. Ufb.


what is Ufb?


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

my guess is: ufb= un "f"ing believeable ??


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Here is the script:
A Spouse: is it ok if i have female friends or this male friend

B spouse: its ok im not jealous or anything, sure why not, yes of course i trust you. 

B spouse: who did you go eat lunch with, watch movie with?

A spouse: oh my friend billy/milly remember

B spouse: umm ok, let me know when it gets out of hand, i dont want to pry into your private life or tell you who you can "hang out" with in my stead, or be jealous or possesive or controlling, gaslight me please, i dont want to be delusional and play mind movies and assume the worst. Ok? I trust you ok, luv ya, have fun at the dinner party/work party. 

Ask any BS on here if they could back in time with what they know now, how would they act/react to these opposite sex "friends". Opposite sex coworkers does not count. When you get married, thats it no more games, no more me time with buddies, no more "i need to go to X house" because he/she is having a bachelor party. 

Sorry but i prefer to not have my wife worry about these things and even though my WIFE may trust me, i dont bother even asking or having OSF because which spouse wants to sound controlling, possessive or jealous? You may have OSF before marriage but after marriage its all about the wife and if i smother her, i go workot or grill something or go bow or slash a deer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Im a really fit, sexy guy, let me give your wife a friendly massage for free, im a masseur and we are just friends, dont worry, its part of my job. Im a professional. Oh oh, and im single too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

dixieangel said:


> my guess is: ufb= un "f"ing believeable ??


Per the Urban Dictionary. Yes. They are familiar with that resource.

I am just going for the ignore list myself now. My number is only at 6 now. So I am not a promiscuous ignore list person ... yet. In general I like opposing viewpoints.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> my guess is: ufb= un "f"ing believeable ??


Swearing won't get him what he wants.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> Swearing won't get him what he wants.


Get over it already, youre off topic.

On topic now....continue
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

its impolite to swear and he swore first.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> My wife is my wife. I am her husband. We are partners. Some folks just don't get the concept. They are still thinking single. We are comitted to one another. We are not free agents.


+5999999
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> its impolite to swear and he swore first.


"He swore first"....? Lets act with a little more decorum
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> its impolite to swear and he swore first.


If you're going to troll just do it for real. Create an entertaining thread and get banned within a week. That what you're doing is just low quality stuff. 



> Im a really fit, sexy guy, let me give your wife a friendly massage for free, im a masseur and we are just friends, dont worry, its part of my job. Im a professional. Oh oh, and im single too


Yeah, i'm sure the "trust" crowd would take up on that offer.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Im a really fit, sexy guy, let me give your wife a friendly massage for free, im a masseur and we are just friends, dont worry, its part of my job. Im a professional. Oh oh, and im single too
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is an example of doubletalking. on one hand he says its okay to be possessive, and on the other hand he's saying he's a professional and can be trusted.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> "He swore first"....? Lets act with a little more decorum
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well like i said, swearing won't get him what he wants, and he swore first.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Sigh...

Back to topic, i think there is a lot of confusion of context of OSF. I wouldnt hang out with OSF alone, together with my wife is a different story. Texting, calling, etc i think it.gets complicated and every couple has their way of finding a medium. Most marriages with children occupy too much time for friends etc so i would assume its better to spend valuable moments with the spouse when the kids are with the inlaws, etc Tempus fugit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Cheaters take advantage of spouses that are more concerned with not being percieved as jealous or possessive...

Call me jealous or possessive all you want...I don't care. I am going to stand up for my marriage. I can't NOT do it. I refuse to be naive...too many people are and that's how they get into trouble.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> Call me jealous or possessive all you want...I don't care. I am going to stand up for my marriage. I can't NOT do it. I refuse to be naive...too many people are and that's how they get into trouble.


Very well said!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

dixieangel said:


> Cheaters take advantage of spouses that are more concerned with not being percieved as jealous or possessive...
> 
> Call me jealous or possessive all you want...I don't care. I am going to stand up for my marriage. I can't NOT do it. I refuse to be naive...too many people are and that's how they get into trouble.


You know, I am a pretty hard liner here. Yet I have never been called jealous, insecure or controlling in any relationship. I proved in my own life I cannot handle close opposite sex friends. Lesson learned.
In hindsight it seems absurd. 

But if you genuinely care for someone and have respect for yourself and your spouse you would never worry about being any of this stuff. You look out for your spouse. They are your best friend and life long companion. Your exclusive lover. You are bonded to them. This is a tighter bond than the O word implies. It is also a very positive bond.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> But if you genuinely care for someone and have respect for yourself and your spouse you would never worry about being any of this stuff. You look out for your spouse. They are your best friend and life long companion. Your exclusive lover. You are bonded to them. This is a tighter bond than the O word implies. It is also a very positive bond.


Agreed. Why waste time by calling your SO "jealous, controlling, insecure....etc"? Does it really matter even if they are such?
Moreover, I don't see anything wrong with jealousy [as long as it's healthy]. If the OSF is more important than your SO's feelings about this friendship then you need to question YOUR feelings about the SO.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

So apparently the thing to do, once you are in an exclusive relationship is for both parties to call all of their osf's and tell them that they cannot be friends anymore, and repudiate them? Is this kind of thing going to stop cheating? I think not. We need to get a grip on our insecurities and realize that HAVING OSF"S isn't a problem. It's WHAT YOU DO with your OSF's that is the issue Does my Gf go out with OSF's singly...no, does she talk about our intimate details...no, does she text, e-mail or chat with them, without my knowledge....no, and I don't either. But for either of us to tell the other that they cannot have osf's, without any evidence of impropriety, would send the message that we don't trust each other. Not the way I want my relationship to be.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Badblood said:


> So apparently the thing to do, once you are in an exclusive relationship is for both parties to call all of their osf's and tell them that they cannot be friends anymore, and repudiate them? Is this kind of thing going to stop cheating? I think not. We need to get a grip on our insecurities and realize that HAVING OSF"S isn't a problem. It's WHAT YOU DO with your OSF's that is the issue Does my Gf go out with OSF's singly...no, does she talk about our intimate details...no, does she text, e-mail or chat with them, without my knowledge....no, and I don't either. But for either of us to tell the other that they cannot have osf's, without any evidence of impropriety, would send the message that we don't trust each other. Not the way I want my relationship to be.


I get your point and I agree with it. 
That's why I said earlier I don't like extremes. 

If a long time friend calls me after many months/years without seeing each other and invites me to have a drink with him, I'd like to go and I don't think there's anything wrong. If my partner disagreed, I'd either try to take him come with me or I'd make him change his mind about my OSF. I don't think it's a big deal to go out with an OSF that I haven't seen in a very long time. 
And if my SO still disagrees about me seeing this OSF then I'd consider my SO feelings and ignore the OSF - although it wouldn't be a healthy solution for my relationship with SO and my friendship with this guy. 
I'd feel sorry if my partner didn't trust me on this, especially if I hadn't given him a reason to doubt.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

dixieangel said:


> *Cheaters take advantage of spouses that are more concerned with not being percieved as jealous or possessive...*
> Call me jealous or possessive all you want...I don't care. I am going to stand up for my marriage. I can't NOT do it. I refuse to be naive...too many people are and that's how they get into trouble.


I agree with this. And my experience is that women who insist on male friends are extremely predatory. Kind of like the fox in the chicken coop.......the fox kills a few chickens but only for fun not for food.

Both my fiance and his EA insist that they were just friends. But when my fiance started backing off, she --who was doing OLD at the time and was starting to see on guy in particular -- had the nerve to accuse my fiance of "leading her on." And he actually worried to me months later that he was leading her on.

On another message board that I have been on for years, I rembmer that one poster had said that he had female friends and that if his wife did not get along (she is also the mother of his child) then that would be adealbreaker. He came back a couple of years later, the same profile name, declaring that he and his wife are getting a divorce.

I simply don't get how the one that you live with, share expenses with, possibly share children with, share family members and family member problems and so on should be subordinate to the whims of someone who merely calls or texts you a few times a week.

It was that thought in the last paragraph that made decide to raise the issue of this "just friend" arrangement. Heck, I wanted to be like her. I wanted to have a full time boyfriend like she had and then see (the person who became) my fiance whenever I felt like it ....instead of spending my entire weekends with him.

If people thought about what they are sacrificing in a mutually exclusive relationship, the they would really rethink what their partner is doing when they meet up with their so called OSFs.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Badblood said:


> So apparently the thing to do, once you are in an exclusive relationship is for both parties to call all of their osf's and tell them that they cannot be friends anymore, and repudiate them? Is this kind of thing going to stop cheating? I think not. We need to get a grip on our insecurities and realize that HAVING OSF"S isn't a problem. It's WHAT YOU DO with your OSF's that is the issue Does my Gf go out with OSF's singly...no, does she talk about our intimate details...no, does she text, e-mail or chat with them, without my knowledge....no, and I don't either. But for either of us to tell the other that they cannot have osf's, without any evidence of impropriety, would send the message that we don't trust each other. Not the way I want my relationship to be.


My opinion on this really boils down to marriage, not exclusivity. If I was in an exclusive relationship, but there's no ring involved, I wouldn't feel the right to demand OSF cut off. If I felt like I might marry this person, I would definitely have the conversation that I expected any OSF stuff would be in a group or with me if we took the next step. No one-on-one stuff. I would fully explain why I felt this way, how it totally burned me before, and that I couldn't deal with it again.

It would be a condition of any ring being purchased, that's for sure. If she refused, then we would just stay casual, or break up.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> My opinion on this really boils down to marriage, not exclusivity. If I was in an exclusive relationship, but there's no ring involved, I wouldn't feel the right to demand OSF cut off. If I felt like I might marry this person, I would definitely have the conversation that I expected any OSF stuff would be in a group or with me if we took the next step. No one-on-one stuff. I would fully explain why I felt this way, how it totally burned me before, and that I couldn't deal with it again.
> 
> It would be a condition of any ring being purchased, that's for sure. If she refused, then we would just stay casual, or break up.


I think pretty similar. Whether right or wrong, it's a big deal to me. I suspect there would be something that my GF would hold valuable to her code of ethics for our marriage more than I would. It would be up to us to determine if we could compromise. This issue would be one of the issues with less wiggle room for me.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I remember my H protecting his 'friendship' at one point, saying he couldn't imagine not being able to talk to her IF she ever called...she had stopped talking to him when we began dating.

At first, I felt kind of silly (and jealous, insecure etc). But then, upon thinking about it, I told him no, I didn't want this friend in his life. a) because I think she was interested in him romantically, and b) I didn't want to have that uneasy uncomfortable feeling every time she'd call/text/email.

We were engaged to be married when I informed him of my position on the matter. He went along with it. In the end, I was right about her, she was interested in more than just friendship with him. So I guess my radar was spot on with this particular person.

IMHO, it's a dangerous position to be in, OSFs...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I remember my H protecting his 'friendship' at one point, saying he couldn't imagine not being able to talk to her IF she ever called...she had stopped talking to him when we began dating.
> 
> At first, I felt kind of silly (and jealous, insecure etc). But then, upon thinking about it, I told him no, I didn't want this friend in his life. a) because I think she was interested in him romantically, and b) I didn't want to have that uneasy uncomfortable feeling every time she'd call/text/email.
> 
> ...


Out of the three of you, your husband was the only one who didn't understand this.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Out of the three of you, your husband was the only one who didn't understand this.


You're absolutely right...he only went along with it to keep the peace with me.

Last Christmas, when she started texting that she 'missed him', he realized why I had been so against this frienship in the first place. I remember asking him, "Didn't you wonder why she was all huffy with you and stopped talking to you RIGHT after you told her about me??? She was interested!" Then, she went fishing for him over over 18 months later...Well, screw that.

Through my whole relationship with my husband, from dating, to engagement and beyond, it's been an education for him with regards to OSFs, EAs, and all that jazz. It was the first time I actually sat someone down and told them my position on these things; but it is my first marriage. I was never able to with boyfriends....


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> So apparently the thing to do, once you are in an exclusive relationship is for both parties to call all of their osf's and tell them that they cannot be friends anymore, and repudiate them? Is this kind of thing going to stop cheating? I think not. We need to get a grip on our insecurities and realize that HAVING OSF"S isn't a problem. It's WHAT YOU DO with your OSF's that is the issue Does my Gf go out with OSF's singly...no, does she talk about our intimate details...no, does she text, e-mail or chat with them, without my knowledge....no, and I don't either. But for either of us to tell the other that they cannot have osf's, without any evidence of impropriety, would send the message that we don't trust each other. Not the way I want my relationship to be.


I think most people agree with this. The problem only comes up when OSF start to make one of the partners uneasy. If one of the partners communicates that the OSF is getting to close then that must be taken very seriously. 

As long as everybody remember barriers its fine. What we may disagree in is where the line is.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

piggyoink said:


> If any of you had a realtor as a spouse would you insist that him/her pass on any opposite sex clients to a colleague? Realtors often meet clients alone in vacant homes.



It's interesting that you mentioned that. I actually worked in a field where I occassonally met a wealthy attractive client who worked from his home, at his home. 

I was propositioned many times. I did not accept. 

Still, I was never the type to ask my spouse to cancel a business meeting with a female client. 

However, in the emails that were forwarded to me anonymously, there was a conversation in which the OW actually became jealous of one of the STBEH's female clients, and he cancelled the lunch meeting for the OW. He met her at the office instead and had lunch sent in. 

Hmmmm! Now, I think the OW had a right to be suspiscious that maybe my STBEH would cheat on her, too. 

I think the OW, a cheater herself, knows what types of situations lead to cheating.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Here is the script:
> A Spouse: is it ok if i have female friends or this male friend
> 
> B spouse: its ok im not jealous or anything, sure why not, yes of course i trust you.
> ...


I agree with this. 

Once married there is no need to meet clients alone for lunch. Meet them at the office. 

No need to meet a female friend from you single days, either. What for, include the wife and tell the old friend to bring her husband or boyfriend. 

I wasn't concerned about being perceive as jealous or possesive. 

It truly was not jealous or possessive because I blindly and stupidly trusted my spouse. 

He misused that trust. And, believe it or not my STBEH is normally in every other situation a very honest trustworthy sort of guy. 

All the people who know him told me so. 

Among the things that made me fall in love with my spouse was his honesty and integrity. 

That is why the marriage is over. 

Without trust, what kind of life would I have.

And, why of all the people he knows as clients and friends did he choose to destroy his credibility with me. Was I that unimportant to him? Apparently so.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> Too many people are completely missing the point. Nobody is saying you dump all your friends once you get married. The point is you simply cannot live the same lifestyle and engage in the same activities. A married man or woman going out alone with a member of the opposite sex that's not their spouse to me is just not appropriate. It doesn't mean they still can't have friendships but it should involve the spouse. Go out as a group with his or her significant other for example.


Exactly. No one is asking them to dump the opposite sex friend. We are just saying no more one on one alone time meetings. 

The spouse needs to be included in visits with these friends.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Sara........


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Once married there is no need to meet clients alone for lunch. Meet them at the office.
> 
> ...


He was a victim of his lack of self control, human nature, his naivety, and your naivety.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> He was a victim of his lack of self control, human nature, his naivety, and your naivety.


Thank you, Thundarr, for that insite. It was helpful to my wounded pride.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

I think there also a couple of points to be considered here. This thread was started on the board Coping with Infidelity. A majority of the folks who have been there and done that are going to have a vastly different view than somebody who hasn't. Also, when it comes to these same sex friends how many of them were more than just friends before one or both parties went on to marry someone else?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Badblood said:


> So apparently the thing to do, once you are in an exclusive relationship is for both parties to call all of their osf's and tell them that they cannot be friends anymore, and repudiate them? Is this kind of thing going to stop cheating? I think not. We need to get a grip on our insecurities and realize that HAVING OSF"S isn't a problem. It's WHAT YOU DO with your OSF's that is the issue Does my Gf go out with OSF's singly...no, does she talk about our intimate details...no, does she text, e-mail or chat with them, without my knowledge....no, and I don't either. But for either of us to tell the other that they cannot have osf's, without any evidence of impropriety, would send the message that we don't trust each other. Not the way I want my relationship to be.


I think there is a Hallmark card for this ....


Hmmmmm, There might be a marke for this. The FO no need for a holiday card. Um ... maybe not.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> Also, when it comes to these *same* sex friends how many of them were more than just friends before one or both parties went on to marry someone else?


You meant to say *opposite* sex friends? 


Yeah, it's kind of difficult to prove who of these friends you partner dated before marrying you.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> You meant to say *opposite* sex friends?
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's kind of difficult to prove who of these friends you partner dated before marrying you.


Yes, that's what I meant thanks.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Would you let your spouse hang around/go out with your best friend?
Would you trust those two enough to let them be alone somewhere?
Suppsedly you're out of town and those two invite each other for a drink or .. maybe to go and watch a game together?

Although we recently had a thread about the cheating wife and OP's best friend banging each other for years. But let's forget about this story for a while ...

How would you feel?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

***He had a female friend (who has boyf) stay at his house a few days while she was in town visiting and stayed at another chick's house after a night of drinking, he is open about all of this with me.***

Great that he's being honest with you. But that means that the responsibility rests with you. 

One problem that I can foresee is that if he starts setting tighter boundaries with his friends now that you're on the scene, they may bame you and they will always keep you in a one down position.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

What do you mean? And can you comment on the 'bff' thing? I want lots of people to comment on it actually.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

JB, if you already feel weird about it (and who could blame you), how're you going to feel if/when this turns serious?

Ever see that Seinfeld where Jerry's new girlfirend just has some random 
"dude" back at the apartment? No explanation- just some dude. I can't imagine cohabitating (!) with my SO's best male friend.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Even growing up I didn't use expressions like best friend, so these days, this term BFF just seems so ...well, naff.

When I hear other people use it, I think that they are being overly dramatic. They like bragging about their lose relationships and perhaps are alerting others /outsiders to how they prioritise their loyalties.

So this guy is overly dramatic about his relationship with his ex gf, that's what I'm hearing from your post.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Jelly, my approach on this would be pretty draconian. I would be slowly stepping away from this whole situation. It is really weird, and it will never go away.

My W is still friends with her ex from right before me, but barely. There are a bunch of HS friends he is a part of. He annoys her at this stage but is still a friend, and they never see each other except for with lots of people around, and even THAT'S weird to me. 

I had a feeling you had a backstory given the questions you were asking. I'm sorry to say this, but if I was you, I would keep this guy at arm's length. Maybe you can be friends, but I wouldn't go beyond that with this guy. You'll never break that bond, and she'll always be in his life, making you feel weird as long as you're "with" him.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> True. I just want to know hwo to approach this/what to say. And does the bff thing sound weird to you guys?
> 
> Next, I just said "bff" in order to shorten the term "best friend" on here.
> 
> I'd realy like to hear from all you.


Too weird and uncomfortable for me. Being so close, I certainly wouldn't want another man knowing all the intimate details of our relationship, or come crying to him for a shoulder to cry on if we're having problems or had an argument. 

Make no mistake, this BFF of his will no all the details of your relationship because he will tell her because he's so close to her.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Jelly, my approach on this would be pretty draconian. I would be slowly stepping away from this whole situation. It is really weird, and it will never go away.


I do think it's really weird!



lordmayhem said:


> Make no mistake, this BFF of his will no all the details of your relationship because he will tell her because he's so close to her.


Well and that's just it--that thought skeeves me out immensely. Because I am *such * a private person and when I am with someone, I think a relationship should be between two people, not anyone else. The thought of him telling her things about me is so icky to me.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> I simply don't get how the one that you live with, share expenses with, possibly share children with, share family members and family member problems and so on should be subordinate to the whims of someone who merely calls or texts you a few times a week.



This to me is the biggest dilemma.. It's the "why" that's never answered from an A. 
Yet it's that addiction that they look forward to that friends conversation more than they do the one their committed to.

It's harder yet when this "friend" exists, yet is hidden from the spouse... they know nothing of this friend.... so would/could this even be considered "just a friend"??


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

JB, have you checked your date's FB activity. Do he and she tag team each other on his wall?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Would you let your spouse hang around/go out with your best friend?
> Would you trust those two enough to let them be alone somewhere?
> Suppsedly you're out of town and those two invite each other for a drink or .. maybe to go and watch a game together?
> 
> ...


My wife is my best friend ....


But no I would not be ok with my wife hooking up with my male friends. Especially when I was away.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Entropy--can you offer your take on my situation? I posted it on the last page.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I am not friends with her on there but only recently did I begin to see a whole slew of pics on his page that were not there before--from an album she has him tagged in. Either she changed the settings to where they are now viewable or he adjusted his page.* Most of the pics are from long ago but I found it strange that I was never able to view those pics before until very recently*.


Sounds familiar. My fiance's EA posted 15 times on his FB wall the entire time 18 months that they were FB friends. 8 of those times were during the 3 months he was seeing the two of us at the same time -- and she knew that.

Sounds like she's showing you who's boss. Send her a friend invite.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Yeah believe me, I found it really really weird when I all of a sudden saw all these new pics I'd never ever noticed before. I thought, wtf?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Entropy--can you offer your take on my situation? I posted it on the last page.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I am not friends with her on there but only recently did I begin to see a whole slew of pics on his page that were not there before--from an album she has him tagged in. Either she changed the settings to where they are now viewable or he adjusted his page. Most of the pics are from long ago but I found it strange that I was never able to view those pics before until very recently. It doesn't seem she really writes on his page but they see eachother every day as they work together. And like I said, we were hanging recently and he went from our date to hang at her house on a weekend so that was at least 6x in 1 week. They also text/talk nearly every day.* But the husband is also friends with him. It all seems so strange*.


Some men put up with this. My fiance said that when he and his EA took a trip, her guy picked them both up at the airport and he took my fiance to his home.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Crazy


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Yeah seems crazy to me but I am not totally shocked some folks live this way. I could only specualte what may be going on but truly is could be any number of things.

It would not work for me anyway.

JB, are you serious about this man? You have to ask yourself, what is thia about and do I want to be in the middle of it.

FB changes security very often, so hard to say. Also they could have been sitting in his queue for a while. You have to approve things when tagged I believe. Her visibility setting may have changed and not his.


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## theOTHERman (Aug 30, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> It seems to me that opposite sex friends in a marriage usually ends up doing more harm than good. Unless it's a mutual friend I think this is something that spouses need to get a handle on and an understanding about. I know there's the point about work colleagues but my thoughts on that is there shouldn't be any single interaction. For example going to lunch together alone. Also, there's no reason for communication outside of work unless it's a critical work matter.


unless someone is possessive and insecure in themselves or their partners... opposite sex friends are an absolute must for any person or relationship for an honest and balanced life. its healthy and perfectly natural.
i have dozens of CLOSE female friends that i dont have physical attraction to... they are attractive .... well not all of them, but i dont want to make love to them. 
friends regardless of sex are important!


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> *This thread is hitting really close to home for me. *
> 
> _I recently began talking to/seeing a guy (L) who has a lot of female friends & is "best friends" with his ex girlfriend who was his first love. They work together & she is married and has a child. He was straight up w/ me about it and said they dated looong ago but made the comment that her husband has made weird comments (like he thought the child he, the husband, had with her was actually the L's! to which L thought that was such a crazy suggestion) and said L's last girlfriend "couldn't handle" his relationship with this bff of his. From the onset I felt weird cause he talks about her All. The. Time. He said "She gets me." I get the feeling he broke it off with her. L, the bff, and her husband used to all even live together in a house. They go to lunch together, shop together, eat together, text and call eachother all the time--so much that one time we were hanging out, she was suggesting places for us to go to. Another time, we had just spent a really nice time together and he left our date to go directly to her home (her and her husband's). This is fvcking weird to me. And of all the female friends he has, this is the one that rubs me the wrong way. It seems we have differing opinions. He had a female friend (who has boyf) stay at his house a few days while she was in town visiting and stayed at another chick's house after a night of drinking, he is open about all of this with me. The relationship with his "bff" gives me the creeps. He says she's the bff but all I hear is "my ex." I asked him "Isn't her husband her bff?" and he said "Yes he is but I am too." Wtf? He was even in their wedding and will be in the bff' husband's bro's wedding, too. That woulda never flown in my marriage when I was married. My ex and I did not keep exes around as friends. Hell, we hardly had any OSF.
> 
> ...


Hi JB,

Except for the 'bff' being right there in your face with this guy you're seeing, this sounds creepily like my story...what brought me here to TAM in the first place. My H's friend (thankfully) lives far away from us, so at least she wasn't right there every day.

I too, thought it was crazy that this woman's name was constantly coming up in conversation, EVERY. F*CKING. DAY. Because when I started dating H, and was getting to know him we were trading life stories, etc. Only HIS were all pertaining to this bloody friend of his. After a few stories, I was wondering. After a few more times, I was downright fed up of hearing the name. A few more times after that, I came right out and asked him WTF was up with this chick. I did not mask my displeasure, either. THAT's when he lied about her (just friends). He stopped talking about her, but it nagged me. Later on, I wasn't surprised to find out they'd dated...I'm sure he lied to me because he thought I wouldn't be able to handle it, quite like your L's former girlfriend. And no. I wouldn't be able to handle it, because frankly, I don't trust women and men to remain 100% platonic on BOTH sides, especially if there's history! Am I right, here?

As I stated in an earlier post in this thread, my H's friend ended up showing her true colors; she was jealous of our relationship/marriage, and she tried to insinuate herself into it by sending phishing text messages to H telling him she missed him...that's when I knew I'd done the right thing by insisting that he either cut her out of his life 100% NC, or we split up.

I can only imagine what life would have been like for me now, if I'd let him have his friend...pfff. No thanks.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

What?? JB!!!! What L is doing is insane!! 
Not only is she his best friend but he probably has nostalgia for their relationship back then.
It's also crazy that her husband is okay with him being around her!!

Please JB! If you're dating this man....break it off!!! You're going to let him hurt you! He's already hurting you! 

It's disrespectful how he interrupted your date to go and help her! 

I wound NEVER EVER be okay with that!!!! Having *CLOSE* OSF while in a relationship is totally unacceptable for me! 
It wouldn't surprise me if he cheated on you with her!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

theOTHERman said:


> unless someone is possessive and insecure in themselves or their partners... opposite sex friends are an absolute must for any person or relationship for an honest and balanced life. its healthy and perfectly natural.
> i have dozens of CLOSE female friends that i dont have physical attraction to... they are attractive .... well not all of them, but i dont want to make love to them.
> friends regardless of sex are important!


Devil is in the details. If you are not with THE ONE and you are not married then why not have OSF. Your still playing the field and looking for opportunities or better.

On the other hand when you are fully committed (married or with the one you plan to be with) then OSF that you have one-on-one time with like lunch dates is not appropriate. At a minimum you share emotional intimacy with the OSF. That's supposed to be for your SO.

This does not make me possessive or insecure. It's an indicator that I applied reason from other people's mistakes, from history, and from psychology. Oh and common sense.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> My wife is my best friend ....
> 
> 
> But no I would not be ok with my wife hooking up with my male friends. Especially when I was away.


One of my married friends went out last week with her husband's BFF. She and his friend have known each other for years, although NOT before she met her husband. So, she knew him from his husband. 
Although they are pretty comfortable in the company of each other and her husband doesn't mind it, it felt kind of weird that those two went out together while her H was away. 

I was there when she called her H telling him (not asking) that she was going out with his BFF. She said "Hey I'm going out with G." 


Personally, I wouldn't be that comfortable either.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

The only times you tend to hear the terms 'possessive and insecure' are from these people who insist on their opsex friends...they try to make you think that you're crazy for thinking there's a threat.

H said to me once "I can't imagine having to tell M that I can't talk to her anymore if she ever calls me." After deliberating for awhile, because HE was making ME feel jealous, paranoid, insecure, I told him "I can't imagine staying with you in this relationship if you insist on having this friendship too.". He honored my wishes/preferences.

In my case, even though she'd stopped talking to him upon my entrance into the equation, he would speak of her with too much fondness and familiarity for my liking. And it's my choice as to whether or not I'm willing to have othe females treading on my toes throughout the relationship.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> The only times you tend to hear the terms 'possessive and insecure' are from these people who insist on their opsex friends...they try to make you think that you're crazy for thinking there's a threat.


Why wouldn't they say that. They want to eat cake. 

They can say anything they want but there is a mountain of evidence that its dangerous. Either way there are plenty of naive people out there for them to tell it to. I'm not one of them though.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

To be completely honest, the only ones I hear championing for OSFs are people who haven't bee burned by this in the past.

I've got quite a few relationships behind me, and the most recent ones, say, in the last 5 years or so before meeting my H, were all rife with these 'just good friends' type of OSFs. At first, I'd think there was something wrong with me. But as time went by, and the same thing kept happening EVERY time, I realized...it's not me, it's THEM! Lol...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> I'm sure he lied to me because he thought I wouldn't be able to handle it, quite like your L's former girlfriend.


Well that's the thing. In this case, he has never lied about it. He's been straight up from the beginning that that is his best friend. 

I hear what you are saying though.



lovelygirl said:


> It's also crazy that her husband is okay with him being around her!


Agreed. Men, in general, aren't built that way. Most men are quite territorial. In fact, sometimes I think men are more territorial than women in that sense. They want the woman they are involved with to have them as their closest confidant.

Also, this is a "different" kind of situation for me because as I stated, when I was married, my exH and I did NOT keep close OSF. It was a boundary we had. My exH was so adamant about this and at the time I thought he was a bit over the top but I can see now why he was concerned. 

Now the funny thing is that the few times I have mentioned my exH to this guy, he seems to get jealous. 

Ironic. 

It's not serious but I don't even know how to go about having this conversation but the whole situation bothers me.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Well that's the thing. In this case, he has never lied about it. He's been straight up from the beginning that that is his best friend.
> 
> I hear what you are saying though.
> 
> ...


Ugh...I can't imagine it either. I'm glad he didn't lie to you, but they DID date ages ago, and he might be downplaying the whole situation. Truth is, not many of us would be good with their SOs having a female best friend. I'd steer clear, but that's because of my own negative experiences (sadly, more than just the one!). If it's not serious, then keep this guy in the casual zone.

Are you involved in a physical relationship with him yet?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I don't think so, but that is just my opinion. Both my husband and I agreed not to have friends of the opposite sex. We discussed this very early in our marriage. It's worked out wonderfully for us.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Now the funny thing is that the few times I have mentioned my exH to this guy, he seems to get jealous.
> 
> Ironic. .


If you and this guy get in a relationship together you will appear as insecure, jealous and controlling because (sure as hell) he will keep on being close friends with her! This is absolute - judging from how things have evolved.

On the other hand, he will become the classic cake eater where he will want to have both of you, while you can't have anyone other than him! Because ...well...he gets jealous!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Candie--No, it's casual, not serious.



Entropy3000 said:


> It would not work for me anyway.
> 
> JB, are you serious about this man? You have to ask yourself, what is thia about and do I want to be in the middle of it.


Word up. That is what I am thinking. 



lovelygirl said:


> On the other hand, he will become the classic cake eater where he will want to have both of you, while you can't have anyone other than him! Because ...well...he gets jealous!


Unless I flipped it. And could say "But you are bff's with X so it shouldn't bother you." Lol.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Unless I flipped it. And could say "But you are bff's with X so it shouldn't bother you." Lol.


Sure! You'd have a lot of reasons to say so. But why put yourself in that position while you have the chance to avoid it, beginning from now. 
If you get attached to this guy I'm afraid you'll have to put up with his sh*tty boundaries and as a result you might have the same boundaries just to take revenge. 
It'll then become an ugly childish game.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Since clearly this is a rough topic for me, I tried to sit back and think about this again, from a neutral perspective. And I stand my ground on this.

See, I don't have close female friends. I mean, I am "friends" with some, but they are either 1) friends with us as a couple equally, 2) friends with my W more than me, 3) friends only at work and never elsewhere, or 4) people I only bump into very rarely by chance, and never make time to see.

And I have no desire to start drumming up female friendships. It just would feel strange, like I was hitting on them or something.

The only time it gets really hard, and ambiguous, is if you had an (non-exbf or exgf) old friend from before your marriage that you saw regularly, even alone. If you then get married, it's rude to just cut that old friend off completely, but you do need to be cognizant of the marriage and see this person with your spouse around, or with a group of people. And if it's an ex, all bets are off.

There, my view is sufficiently summed up.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Well, Jelly, then I'd keep my options open for sure. ACtually, I'd probably just steer clear altogether. I am not ashamed to say that I wouldn't be able to handle it...


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Since clearly this is a rough topic for me, I tried to sit back and think about this again, from a neutral perspective. And I stand my ground on this.
> 
> See, I don't have close female friends. I mean, I am "friends" with some, but they are either 1) friends with us as a couple equally, 2) friends with my W more than me, 3) friends only at work and never elsewhere, or 4) people I only bump into very rarely by chance, and never make time to see.
> 
> ...


See....this is a balanced view.

Having no OSF at all is extreme.
Having a CLOSE OSF is extreme.

Having an OSF whom you very rarely meet is okay.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Since clearly this is a rough topic for me, I tried to sit back and think about this again, from a neutral perspective. And I stand my ground on this.
> 
> See, I don't have close female friends. I mean, I am "friends" with some, but they are either 1) friends with us as a couple equally, 2) friends with my W more than me, 3) friends only at work and never elsewhere, or 4) people I only bump into very rarely by chance, and never make time to see.
> 
> ...


The only part I have a different view on is bolded...yes, it might appear to be rude, but when given the choice between being rude to an old male friend (and I mean friend *only*) from the past and my husband, my husband would win hands down. It's this fear of being rude that caused my H to be so worried about other women that he knew...sorry, but as wife, I do believe he should be just a tad more worried about my feelings.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> If you get attached to this guy I'm afraid you'll have to put up with his sh*tty boundaries and as a result you might have the same boundaries just to take revenge.


Nonsense. One never has to put up with sh*tty boundaries.  My momma taught me that. Lol.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I am posting this from another thread on TAM (*Need advice..insecure hubby? Or am I the probelm? *) because it's applicable to this thread. Granted, I am single and not married but it is relevant:




MrK said:


> I was in a thread where it went off on a tangent about how men don't put that much effort into a friendship with a woman they didn't want to screw. It got kind of funny (Summary, Women: "NO WAY". Men: "WAY").
> 
> It got kind of funny in that we men won by default (we have the penis and the urges, women don't). It got pretty obvious who was right. What was REALLY funny was that most women had NO CLUE it was going on.





Jellybeans said:


> Ok, after spending so much time on TAM and having this Men/Women friendship topic come up so many times and not believing it (I was in the "NO WAY" camp), I actually tested out this theory. My guy friend of about 15 years and I (who I see every blue moon) decided to meet up for a bite to eat when he was in the city visiting. I told him I'd been reading a lot of material lately about men and women frienships and asked him the million dollar question:_ *"Can men and women be just friends?" *_ And he told me "I wouldn't have sleep with one of my friends unless there was something more..." and then there was a pause... "I'll be honest with you, Jelly. I'd have sex with you." He said it very matter of factly.
> 
> I was like, F-CK. The men at TAM were right. And then I thought, Dear gawd... all these years--has he always wondered about sleeping with me?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Having OSF's has nothing to do with boundaries, except that the same boundaries APPLY to the OSF"s as it does to anybody of the opposite sex. Like I said before it isn't the friendship its what you do that counts. My Gf's boundaries are much stricter than mine, so I've had to compromise a little. And again, I ask the posters , What do you do with your OSF's after you get married or become exclusive? Do you just ignore them, cut them out of your life forever? I mean some posters are pretty glib about this subject, but don't provide a lot of workable solutions.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Badblood said:


> . *My Gf's boundaries are much stricter than mine*, so I've had to compromise a little.


In what way?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> In what way?


I used to go to lunch or happy hour with some of the Ladies from my office, and would text, e-mail or call OSF's, at will. I NEVER said or did anything inappropriate, but my GF mentioned that she was uncomfortable , so I stopped. I didn't give up my OSF's, but now I only go out with them in a group setting, and my GF is ALWAYS invited.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Here's an interesting tidbit from the other forum.

I am new to this forum, I am looking for help if anyone can offer I'd really appreciate it. 
I have been seeing the MM for about 4 years. *Quite frankly, I am tired of standing by watching him and his wife's life get better and better*. I want her to find out about me and the extent of the affair he has been having with me. *Before they were married, he and I were best friends. She didn't want him talking to me anymore because at one point long ago, he broke up with her to try and be with me (but I had a BF at the time)*. So, she does not think he and I even speak, let alone having a major affair. He has also defamed me to her and all of his friends/family saying that I am a psycho trying to be with him. This way, when i call he has an excuse saying that Im just still trying to call but that we don't actually talk.

How can I get her to find out about me without directly telling her or making it so obvious that its me? I know that if I told her, she would not believe me. He has told her and everyone he knows that I am a psycho, in case she sees me calling, he can not answer and just say I'm a psycho still trying to stay in contact with him. So, I know she will not believe it, no matter the proof. Also, I want her to find out in a way that isn't completely obvious its me. I want him to accept responsibility for what hes done. If he knows its me, he will say oh its HER fault my marriage is in trouble now, instead of oh its my own fault for cheating. And yes, on a pathetic end, I do not want him to be mad at me for it. Sad i know.

Can anyone offer any advice?? Thanks in advance.
(Also, he does not work a job with set hours, so it is never suspicious when he is not home at a certain time.)

How can I get the wife to find out? - LoveShack.org Community Forums

The makings of a bunny boiler here. The WH here cake eats while his BFF OW wants to expose the affair so that WH will finally be hers.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Here's an interesting tidbit from the other forum.
> 
> I am new to this forum, I am looking for help if anyone can offer I'd really appreciate it.
> I have been seeing the MM for about *4 years*. *Quite frankly, I am tired of standing by watching him and his wife's life get better and better*. I want her to find out about me and the extent of the affair he has been having with me. *Before they were married, he and I were best friends. She didn't want him talking to me anymore because at one point long ago, he broke up with her to try and be with me (but I had a BF at the time)*. So, she does not think he and I even speak, let alone having a major affair. *He has also defamed me to her and all of his friends/family saying that I am a psycho trying to be with him. *This way, when i call he has an excuse saying that Im just still trying to call but that we don't actually talk.
> ...


GAWDDAMN. This woman's self-esteem is seriously low. And four years? FOUR YEARS??? She wants to be with a guy who calls her a "psycho?" If that's what she wants then she deserves it. :rofl:


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> GAWDDAMN. This woman's self-esteem is seriously low. And four years? FOUR YEARS??? She wants to be with a guy who calls her a "psycho?" If that's what she wants then she deserves it. :rofl:


That's what I was thinking!
How can she be with someone who has so much disrespects and badmouths her to everyone.??

Well.. yeah... given that she doesn't respect herself why would he respect her?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Well.. yeah... given that *she doesn't respect herself *why would he respect her?


That's exactly it.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Married men have no respect for the women they're screwing on the side. None.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Married men have no respect for the women they're screwing on the side. None.


Depends.

Some of these men ended up marrying those women afterwards.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Depends.
> 
> Some of these men ended up marrying those women afterwards.


And they'll each spend the entire marriage wondering whether or not they're being cheated on...

I do realize it happens, but it's rare...even more rare is it the love story of the century, romanticized for all to see...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Having OSF's has nothing to do with boundaries, except that the same boundaries APPLY to the OSF"s as it does to anybody of the opposite sex. Like I said before it isn't the friendship its what you do that counts. My Gf's boundaries are much stricter than mine, so I've had to compromise a little. And again, I ask the posters , What do you do with your OSF's after you get married or become exclusive? Do you just ignore them, cut them out of your life forever? I mean some posters are pretty glib about this subject, but don't provide a lot of workable solutions.


I like the phrase "compromise a little" which I think is healthy. I've been one of the "glib" posters that does not like OSF but I don't think you just cut them out. I think you just make one-on-one time rare.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I like the phrase "compromise a little" which I think is healthy. I've been one of the "glib" posters that does not like OSF but I don't think you just cut them out. I think you just make one-on-one time rare.


Every situation is unique, I guess.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> The only part I have a different view on is bolded...yes, it might appear to be rude, but when given the choice between being rude to an old male friend (and I mean friend *only*) from the past and my husband, my husband would win hands down. It's this fear of being rude that caused my H to be so worried about other women that he knew...sorry, but as wife, I do believe he should be just a tad more worried about my feelings.


Oh yeah, spouse wins every time. I'm just saying that telling a friend you had for 15-20-25 years that you suddenly can never speak to each other again is rude and extreme. Can't meet alone ever again? That's more like it.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Badblood said:


> I used to go to lunch or happy hour with some of the Ladies from my office, and would text, e-mail or call OSF's, at will. I NEVER said or did anything inappropriate, but my GF mentioned that she was uncomfortable , so I stopped. I didn't give up my OSF's, but now I only go out with them in a group setting, and my GF is ALWAYS invited.


And this is the way it should be. Good job listening to your GF.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> And this is the way it should be. Good job listening to your GF.


Well, most of the time it isn't even a matter of making any kind of point, just some of the things that come up in conversation. We actually went out to dinner together with one of my Lady co-workers and her new BF Monday night and had a real good time.


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## Kathy Jackson (Aug 29, 2012)

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> It seems to me that opposite sex friends in a marriage usually ends up doing more harm than good. Unless it's a mutual friend I think this is something that spouses need to get a handle on and an understanding about. I know there's the point about work colleagues but my thoughts on that is there shouldn't be any single interaction. For example going to lunch together alone. Also, there's no reason for communication outside of work unless it's a critical work matter.


Gosh, my husband still doesn't understand this---even after he had an affair at work!

There's no need for a woman to be friends with a married man. No reason at all. It's not about jealousy, it's about respect and boundaries.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Oh yeah, spouse wins every time. I'm just saying that telling a friend you had for 15-20-25 years that you suddenly can never speak to each other again is rude and extreme. Can't meet alone ever again? That's more like it.


And really, this is the type of frienship can be completely redirected, ie, including your spouse EVERY time. If the friend asks "Hey, why don't we ever hang out alone anymore?", the answer is "Well, I am a married man/woman, after all!". No more explanation should be required. And if the friend wants private contact, such as texts and emails, they can simply be informed that those things cross marital boundaries, and to please respect that. Doesn't sound rude that way, what do you think?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Devil is in the details. If you are not with THE ONE and you are not married then why not have OSF. Your still playing the field and looking for opportunities or better.
> 
> On the other hand when you are fully committed (married or with the one you plan to be with) then OSF that you have one-on-one time with like lunch dates is not appropriate. At a minimum you share emotional intimacy with the OSF. That's supposed to be for your SO.
> 
> This does not make me possessive or insecure. It's an indicator that I applied reason from other people's mistakes, from history, and from psychology. Oh and common sense.


Smart people learn from their failures.

Really smart people learn from other peoples failures.

The whole jealousy, insecurity and controlling stuff is FUD. At best it comes down to a couple not having compatible values.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> One of my married friends went out last week with her husband's BFF. She and his friend have known each other for years, although NOT before she met her husband. So, she knew him from his husband.
> Although they are pretty comfortable in the company of each other and her husband doesn't mind it, it felt kind of weird that those two went out together while her H was away.
> 
> I was there when she called her H telling him (not asking) that she was going out with his BFF. She said "Hey I'm going out with G."
> ...


Of course no ones wife or husband ever gets inapprorpriately involved with ones BFF. 

Oh wait ... happens all the time. Nevermind.

There is too much false security in the BFF plus they are equipped with too much information and other freedoms that give them an unfair advantage here.

In fact it would be more likely for a BFF to fall in love with our spouse than just anyone else.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Of course no ones wife or husband ever gets inapprorpriately involved with ones BFF.
> 
> Oh wait ... happens all the time. Nevermind.
> 
> ...


No doubt. OSF and especially OSBF sets the stage for an emotional bond which can spiral into emotions and desire driving our behavior. Desire for emotional and physical intimacy is built into all of us just like eating and sleeping. Nature favored the ones who have sex more often because they created more children.

A lot of people would not act on their desire but it only takes one moment of weakness to mess up two or more lives for a long time. It does not seem worth the risk to me so I avoid temping scenarios.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Smart people learn from their failures.
> 
> Really smart people learn from other peoples failures.
> 
> The whole jealousy, insecurity and controlling stuff is FUD. *At best it comes down to a couple not having compatible values.*


So true. 

I used to be in the camp that thought some people were "insecure" if they didn't want their SO being close with someone of the opposite sex (hetero couples) but my goodness, has my viewpoint changed on that.

It IS about compatibility and values. It's also about respect. It is *disrespectful * if you are emotionally investing in someone who is not your spouse/SO. I don't want to date someone who is so close with their "best female friend." One that happens to be their ex. It's all about priorities and I feel if you are investing that much time into your "best female friend" (change genders for applicability), it WILL take away from the primary relationship, no matter how you slice it. One would never be able to be a strong foundation w/ someone as long as they are using someone else for a source of emotional intimacy/friendship.

And we all know, the minute you start talking/telling other person, especially the opposite sex, about intimate details of YOUR primary relationship, boundaries are automatically crossed. And so is loyalty. 

.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> So true.
> 
> I used to be in the camp that thought some people were "insecure" if they didn't want their SO being close friends with someone of the opposite sex (hetero couples) but my goodness, has jmy viewpoint changed on that.
> 
> So that is where I am at now. I don't think I want to date someone who is so close with their "best female friend." One that happens to be their ex. It's all about priorities and I feel like if you are investing that much time into your "best female friend"--it's going to take away from the primary relationship, no matter how you slice it. One would never be able to be a strong foundation w/ someone as long as they are using someone else for a source of emotional intimacy/friendship.


I now have a close male friend - I've had him for years. 
He's single now but every time he was in a relationship he'd call me up and complain to me about his GFs. He would also tell me their sexual details. I put myself in his gfs shoes and I didn't like what I was imagining. I'm sure his ex gfs would be pissed at him knowing he has told me details about their relationship and complaints. It's not good. 
That's what happens when your bf has a close female friend.

I told him to stop as it was not good for him to badmouth his gfs to me. It was not fair!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> I now have a close male friend - I've had him for years.
> He's single now but every time he was in a relationship he'd call me up and complain to me about his GFs. He would also tell me their sexual details. I put myself in his gfs shoes and I didn't like what I was imagining. I'm sure his ex gfs would be pissed at him knowing he has told me details about their relationship and complaints. It's not good.
> That's what happens when your bf has a close female friend.
> 
> I told him to stop as it was not good for him to badmouth his gfs to me. It was not fair!


The world needs more people like you LG.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> I now have a close male friend - I've had him for years.
> He's single now but every time he was in a relationship he'd call me up and complain to me about his GFs. He would also tell me their sexual details. I put myself in his gfs shoes and I didn't like what I was imagining. I'm sure his ex gfs would be pissed at him knowing he has told me details about their relationship and complaints. It's not good.
> That's what happens when your bf has a close female friend.
> 
> I told him to stop as it was not good for him to badmouth his gfs to me. It was not fair!


Hmmmm....and he's STILL single, eh? Speaks volumes....


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> So true.
> 
> I used to be in the camp that thought some people were "insecure" if they didn't want their SO being close with someone of the opposite sex (hetero couples) but my goodness, has my viewpoint changed on that.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree: And your closing sentence is on the money. Loyalty indeed.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

To sum it up, it's all fun and games, 'til somebody loses an eye!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Hmmmm....and he's STILL single, eh? Speaks volumes....


He just happens to be single now but believe me, it's not hard for him to find girlfriends.
He's good looking and attractive. He can have any girl he wants. 
Me and him have had chances to be in a relationship together but being the unstable guy that he is, I've always avoided him.
He's not my type and not the kind of guy I'd like to be intimate with. 
But girls look after him, that's for sure. It's just that they don't know his dirty secrets and the dark side of him, like I do. 

He has NEVER introduced me any of his gfs. His relationships were so insignificant that the longest time he's been in a relationship was 1 year. [Considering the fact that he's 29].


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> I now have a close male friend - I've had him for years.
> He's single now but every time he was in a relationship he'd call me up and complain to me about his GFs. He would also tell me their sexual details. I put myself in his gfs shoes and I didn't like what I was imagining. I'm sure his ex gfs would be pissed at him knowing he has told me details about their relationship and complaints. It's not good.
> That's what happens when your bf has a close female friend.
> 
> I told him to stop as it was not good for him to badmouth his gfs to me. It was not fair!


What did he say? And good for your for putting the kabosh on it. 

I had an experience like this earlier in the summer. I was speaking to a guy I've known for a long time (family friend) and asked him how his wife was doing. He told me he thinks she filed for divorce and how she was "jealous" and was being weird with him. He said "What am I going to do if this happens? What am I going to do about sex? How do you handle not having sex now that you're not married? I need it & if I don't get it X amount of times, I will go crazy."

First of all, this guy had NEVER had this kind of conversation with me before. And I told him straight up "I don't want to talk about that. First of all, it's completely offside, and second of all, you need to talk to your wife about this." 

I shut him down completely.

A few weeks later, I'm on the phone with my sis who says she ran into him and he asked how I was and said "Jelly totally put me in my place the last time I talked to her--I hope she's not mad at me." My sis goes "What happened? What is he talking about?" 

HA
HA
HA

My boundaries are SO much better now. I love it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Hmmmm....and he's STILL single, eh? Speaks volumes....


Exactly. 

And he will continue down this path of not having a long-standing relationship.

Ultimately, confiding in someone else about your relationship is stealing. Stealing from your relationship. It's a no-go, IMO.



lovelygirl said:


> But girls look after him, that's for sure. It's just that they don't know his dirty secrets and the dark side of him, like I do.


I wouldn't consider this a good thing, Lovely. It means he isn't invested in any of his relationships if it's not willing to be vulnerable enough with this girlfriends & prefers to share his intimate life with you over them.

You feel me? 

It's the Windows and Walls theory. 

You say he can get any girl he wants, but I beg to differ. A woman with standards wouldn't be dealing with that. 

Oh boy I should take my advice


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> What did he say? And good for your for putting the kabosh on it.


He was surprised at my reaction by saying "Wow, what's up with you? You're my best friend. You should listen to me!"

I replied back "Oh I didn't know that having a best friends means to have no privacy for yourself and to badmouth your girlfriend. 
I don't care about such details and have some personality for yourself. Some things are meant to be private! From now on I don't want to know any sexual detail. It's unfair for your relationship and your gf!!"
He was just speechless. He doesn't open up as much now. 



> I wouldn't consider this a good thing, Lovely. It means he isn't invested in any of his relationships if it's not willing to be that vulnerable with thi sgirlfriends and share his intimate details.


That's why I've always avoided him. He doesn't know how to commit and be responsible.



> A woman with standards wouldn't be dealing with that.


Again, the reason why I didn't get with him.
I have different standards from the girls he has dated. 
Most of them were around their 20s, no-brainers and superficial. Nevertheless, this didn't give him the right to talk bad behind their back. If he was THAT unsatisfied, why not leave them?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> He just happens to be single now but believe me, it's not hard for him to find girlfriends.
> He's good looking and attractive. He can have any girl he wants.
> Me and him have had chances to be in a relationship together but being the unstable guy that he is, I've always avoided him.
> He's not my type and not the kind of guy I'd like to be intimate with.
> ...


Ugh...I hate to point this out, but since he never introduces you to any of these women kinda proves that he's probably hoping for more with you AND he knows that the chicks he dates won't be cool with you being such a good friend of his.

29 and only short and shallow relationships? No wonder you steered clear. Doesn't sound like much of a catch to me .


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> 29 and only short and shallow relationships? No wonder you steered clear. *Doesn't sound like much of a catch to me *.


Depends on what I'd use him for. 
He would be a good option for FWB or as an affair partner. He sounds like he's hot in bed. But that's it. And I think about him only during that time of the month.
:lol:

No way would I consider him marriage material or for a long time serious relationship!


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Depends on what I'd use him for.
> He would be a good option for *FWB *or as *an affair partner*. *He sounds like he's hot in bed.* But that's it.
> 
> 
> No way would I consider him marriage material or for a long time serious relationship!


You're married, right? Isn't this a tad inappropriate for you to be saying??? :scratchhead:

I am not looking to cause an argument with you, I'm mildly surprised that you said it...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Oh boy I should take my advice


. Wouldn't we all be better off if we did.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Depends on what I'd use him for.
> He would be a good option for FWB or as an affair partner. He sounds like he's hot in bed. But that's it. And I think about him only during that time of the month.
> :lol:
> 
> No way would I consider him marriage material or for a long time serious relationship!


Yea that's scary honest.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Yea that's scary honest.


I'd effin' kill my H if I ever heard him talking about a friend that way.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

huh? Guys relax. I was kidding around.
Also, I'm SINGLE. Who said I'm married?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Also, if I were married he wouldn't be my CLOSE OSF in the first place.
Anyway, me and him often joke around with sex jokes about each other.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> His relationships were so insignificant that the longest time he's been in a relationship was 1 year. [Considering the fact that he's 29





CandieGirl said:


> 29 and only short and shallow relationships? No wonder you steered clear. Doesn't sound like much of a catch to me .


:iagree:


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> What did he say? And good for your for putting the kabosh on it.
> 
> I had an experience like this earlier in the summer. I was speaking to a guy I've known for a long time (family friend) and asked him how his wife was doing. He told me he thinks she filed for divorce and how she was "jealous" and was being weird with him. He said "What am I going to do if this happens? What am I going to do about sex? How do you handle not having sex now that you're not married? I need it & if I don't get it X amount of times, I will go crazy."
> 
> ...


Great execution of a boundary! The natural reaction is to be sympathetic to his plight (even if you think he is out of line) but it doesn't help in the long run. If more people did this then it would become less acceptable to complain about the spouse to others.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Lovely Girl...I thought you were married. So in fact, our whole conversation regarding this topic has been rendered completely pointless.

When you're single, you can pretty much have as many male friends as you'd like. It's not the same thing at all.

And to even joke about him being a good affair partner is a little crass, considering this is a pro-marriage board. JMHO, tho.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Well, CG, it's different for singles versus marrieds but even as a single now, there are boundaries to be respect for friends who are in relationships. There is just stuff you don't do/discuss/talk about. 



meson said:


> Great execution of a boundary! The natural reaction is to be sympathetic to his plight (even if you think he is out of line) but it doesn't help in the long run. If more people did this then it would become less acceptable to complain about the spouse to others.





Now the thing I need advice with is how do I state/execute my boundary as it relates to my current concern with the guy having his ex as a best friend...


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Well, CG, it's different for singles versus marrieds but even as a single now, there are boundaries to be respect for friends who are in relationships. There is just stuff you don't do/discuss/talk about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You will have to decide if you want to have another woman in your relationship; he will always be running to her with stuff. Personally, I wouldnt' be able to handle it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Lovely Girl...I thought you were married. So in fact, our whole conversation regarding this topic has been rendered completely pointless.
> 
> When you're single, you can pretty much have as many male friends as you'd like. It's not the same thing at all.
> 
> And to even joke about him being a good affair partner is a little crass, considering this is a pro-marriage board. JMHO, tho.


Even though LG is not married. I think it was great that she felt like it was wrong for her OSF to talk about his GF to her. It was respect for the other girl and to me means she knows what the boundaries should be. EA and PA would not happen so often if others did the same.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Lovely Girl...I thought you were married. So in fact, our whole conversation regarding this topic has been rendered completely pointless.


I'm sorry you consider it pointless. To me however it wasn't.
There are OSF out there who don't want to harm someone's relationship. However, it's too much risk to take.


> When you're single, you can pretty much have as many male friends as you'd like. It's not the same thing at all.


I know. It's not the same thing. But still, there are boundaries.
I don't like it when my OSF shows disrespect for his relationship. It speaks volumes about the fact that he doesn't value whoever he's dating and it taught me to not date men like him.
You want my super honest opinion on him? I started loosing respect about him once he started revealing unnecessary details about the girls he was dating. 



> And to even joke about him being a good affair partner is a little crass, considering this is a pro-marriage board. JMHO, tho.


My joke was over the top. I agree. However, being single doesn't stop me from having my own fantasies.
Again, not in a million years would I be FWB with him for 2 reasons:
1 - I'm not the type to go for FWB
2 - Even if I decided to be FWB - I wouldn't choose him. 
The fact that he badmouths his girlfriends shows he'd have no problem badmouthing a friend with benefits.


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## fishfast41 (Dec 12, 2010)

IMHO,the idea that you can spend one on one time with a friend of the opposite sex is pure rationalization.Even if you have successfully done this,the possibility of things going too far is still there. Why take this risk? If you need a friend of the other sex..you have one..your spouse. Anything you can take to an OS friend, you should be able to take to your spouse. If you can't do that, you need to be working on your marriage, not spending time with others of the OS. When you get married, you are making a life changing commitment as well as a lifetime one. A big part of this is the changing of friendships to accommodate your marriage's best interests. If you still want to have OS friends, than do it as a couple,not alone. I'll even go one step further,you are supposed to put your spouse ahead of yourself. If your spouse is not comfortable with this sort of thing..then you shouldn't be doing it. "Forsaking all others" isn't only about sex,it's about ALL relationships outside the marriage.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Well, CG, it's different for singles versus marrieds but even as a single now, there are boundaries to be respect for friends who are in relationships. There is just stuff you don't do/discuss/talk about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jelly, I'm sorry, but I don't see this working out for you and this guy. You can ask him to stop seeing his ex/BFF, or some version of that, and he's just not going to comply. He will either flat out reject that proposal, or he will pretend to comply and see her behind your back instead of out in the open.

If I were you, I would simply state that I couldn't have a serious relationship with someone who is that attached to his ex, that it's making me completely uncomfortable, and that her husband is asking for trouble. I would offer converting my relationship to a casual friendship in the meantime, and only if/when he was to decide to back off with his ex would I consider anything more.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Your words are wise


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Jelly, I'm sorry, but I don't see this working out for you and this guy. You can ask him to stop seeing his ex/BFF, or some version of that, and he's just not going to comply. He will either flat out reject that proposal, or he will pretend to comply and see her behind your back instead of out in the open.
> 
> If I were you, I would simply state that I couldn't have a serious relationship with someone who is that attached to his ex, that it's making me completely uncomfortable, and that her husband is asking for trouble. I would offer converting my relationship to a casual friendship in the meantime, and only if/when he was to decide to back off with his ex would I consider anything more.


that's pretty much what I said to my fiance. That is, that he could keep his just a friend ex but that that would also mean that he and I would go back to "just dating." Considering that he jettisoned her rather quickly, he obviously understood what I meant.

too bad it's so easy whe you're not married and it's much easier to walk. What would a married partner say /do under the same circumstances?


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## Fixin (Aug 27, 2012)

NextTimeAround
I’ve been debating that same question with myself (I am married). My refuses to even acknowledge that her “just friend” is a concern.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Fixin said:


> NextTimeAround
> I’ve been debating that same question with myself (I am married). My refuses to even acknowledge that her “just friend” is a concern.


Based on your other thread Fixin, I really think it's not "just friends" in your wife's case. And I don't jump to that conclusion every opportunity. I always look for things to say otherwise because it saddens me to think about what people have to go through.

Your case specifically triggers me because of it being her boss and all. Maybe that makes me less objective but the signs are all there. Sorry for thread jumping. Good luck.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Fixin said:


> NextTimeAround
> I’ve been debating that same question with myself (I am married). My refuses to even acknowledge that her “just friend” is a concern.


One of two things are happening, Fixin.

1) she is naive, or
2) she is lying

Take it from someone who got totally burned by the "just friend" thing. In my case, it was #1 for a long time, then turned into #2.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

And I will say that if you are married and your spouse has a close OSF, it is really a difficult situation to be in. There's no easy way out of it. 

It wasn't until I became a "victim" of this until I was able to totally stand up for myself in this regard. I now have a zero tolerance policy. But that's easy for me to enforce because all I have to do is point to the OSF where it went too far. Before the bad OSF stuff, I was not able to enforce anything. 

Hopefully my words can help others learn and avoid the immense pain I went through BEFORE getting to the bad stuff.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Gabriel, I'm 100% with you on this, and there's no reason on God's green earth that any of us should have to put up with anything that makes us THIS uncomfortable.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> And I will say that if you are married and your spouse has a close OSF, it is really a difficult situation to be in. There's no easy way out of it.
> 
> It wasn't until I became a "victim" of this until I was able to totally stand up for myself in this regard. I now have a zero tolerance policy. But that's easy for me to enforce because all I have to do is point to the OSF where it went too far. Before the bad OSF stuff, I was not able to enforce anything.
> 
> Hopefully my words can help others learn and avoid the immense pain I went through BEFORE getting to the bad stuff.


Blind trust and OSFs are so politically correct. I partly blame TV and movies for portraying it that way. Smart people overcome PC and allow themselves to use logic.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

I believe that it is everybody's right to choose their own friends, but I really don't see how an "ex", could ever be anything more than a nodding acquaintance, once you have entered into a new relationship. My new GF , because of her kids, HAS to engage with her ex, from time to time, but she doesn't LIKE to, and she avoids it like the plague. I engage with my Ex's kids, but not her.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> I believe that it is everybody's right to choose their own friends, but I really don't see how an "ex", could ever be anything more than a nodding acquaintance, once you have entered into a new relationship. My new GF , because of her kids, HAS to engage with her ex, from time to time, but she doesn't LIKE to, and she avoids it like the plague. I engage with my Ex's kids, but not her.


Now now, Badblood, don't you get controlling


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> I believe that it is everybody's right to choose their own friends, but I really don't see how an "ex", could ever be anything more than a nodding acquaintance, once you have entered into a new relationship. My new GF , because of her kids, HAS to engage with her ex, from time to time, but she doesn't LIKE to, and she avoids it like the plague. I engage with my Ex's kids, but not her.


My youngest son was four when his mother and I split. We were not friends but we were friendly. And we respected the rules of our co-parenting relationship. You just have to be on the same page with each other for the children's sake. Otherwise they'll play you against each other. My wife understood this. The same thing would have worked with her son's father except that he was a little worthless and did not participate much anyway.

Our business was raising our kids and we kept it at that.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> My youngest son was four when his mother and I split. We were not friends but we were friendly. And we respected the rules of our co-parenting relationship. You just have to be on the same page with each other for the children's sake. Otherwise they'll play you against each other. My wife understood this. The same thing would have worked with her son's father except that he was a little worthless and did not participate much anyway.
> 
> Our business was raising our kids and we kept it at that.


It was a lot easier for us, because Our kids are grown and gone, so interaction can be kept to the kids, but not their mom. Gf has a far harder time , because she has kids at home, so he has to be involved in their activities. But he doesn't come around much since she and I have been seeing each other. He came by once and I answered the door, and the sight of a large , Black man sort of threw him off stride. He mumbled some kind of crap and left, and hasn't been back since. It was really funny.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> and the sight of a large , Black man sort of threw him off stride. He mumbled some kind of crap and left, and hasn't been back since. It was really funny.


large , Black man *With combat training* .


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> large , Black man *With combat training* .


Well, he never got to see that side of me.......yet. I was in a suit, so it probably confused him. My Gf says that he is pretty racist, so when I didn't have on shades, basketball sneakers and my pants low on my ass, he probably thought I was a Cop. LOL Her Mom said , the other day, that I was very well -dressed, like it was some kind of surprise or something.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Well, he never got to see that side of me.......yet. I was in a suit, so it probably confused him. My Gf says that he is pretty racist, so when I didn't have on shades, basketball sneakers and my pants low on my ass, he probably thought I was a Cop. LOL Her Mom said , the other day, that I was very well -dressed, like it was some kind of surprise or something.


Sorry you have to deal with that extra crap on top of everything else. Nice to see you can use it to your advantage once in awhile!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Well, he never got to see that side of me.......yet. I was in a suit, so it probably confused him. My Gf says that he is pretty racist, so when I didn't have on shades, basketball sneakers and my pants low on my ass, he probably thought I was a Cop. LOL Her Mom said , the other day, that I was very well -dressed, like it was some kind of surprise or something.


That's hilarious..... sort of.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I can trace the loss of one female friend back to the first time that I brought my fiance around. I have an idea what he did that pissed her off.

Feedback on that situation runs along the lines do I really want to be friends with someone who chooses my bf?

MMkay......

but when the discussion turns into the other direction and I express concern about the female friend of my bf, funny how I am put into the one down position that I am supposed to accept her. So if I were to run her off, that would be wrong /jealous / insecure of me......but when my bf runs off one of my friends for his clumsy behavior, I am somehow better off without her -- and my bf has done nothing wrong.......interesting


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Well, he never got to see that side of me.......yet. I was in a suit, so it probably confused him. My Gf says that he is pretty racist, so when I didn't have on shades, basketball sneakers and my pants low on my ass, he probably thought I was a Cop. LOL Her Mom said , the other day, that I was very well -dressed, like it was some kind of surprise or something.


Stereotypes...


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> That's hilarious..... sort of.


Yep, funny...in a crappy sort of way.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

costa200 said:


> Stereotypes...


Yes, Costa, they are, but you would be surprised at how many people still believe them


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