# Forgiveness...



## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

I've listed out details on another thread if you're interested http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/29255-fight-resign.html 

Otherwise, this is the situation currently.

My wife is apparently resentful that I have asked to go to marriage counseling. Though her demeanor often suggests otherwise, she claims that she despises being around me. She has said multiple times that she is done, and that she feels betrayed and used (again details in another thread) and refuses to forgive me. If we had no children factoring into this, I would very likely be gone already. A line from the Money Pit comes to mind, "(s)He can't forgive me and I can't forgive him(her) for that".

Her complete lack of willingness to go any further is a real turn-off. I understand that she reached the "I'm done" point about a month before I did, and that I got on this website a little too late and made some mistakes along the way. However, the refusal to see things as they are now and to be able to forgive is just beyond my comprehension.

I am very tempted to just go ahead and move out. I've already asked her, if she truly feels only angst when she's around me, to stop pretending that she enjoys my company, even if only a little. I told her to cut the cord, she advised me to take my own advice, and I explained that's exactly what I was doing. Stop pretending if that's what you're doing, and just let whatever it is be real. Even if it sucks, it has to be real.

Where I'm on the fence is wether or not to go ahead and go to MC as I planned, or to just say F*** it and move on. We still have some major communication issues that we will need to resolve to be good co-parents to the children, and I'm hoping that at the least we can figure some of that out during MC.

Otherwise, I do not want to be married to someone who wants nothing to do with me, cannot forgive, and cannot accept any responsibility for the current state of our marriage.

Thoughts?


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## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

99 views no replies, ouch.


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## bluebeauty (Aug 25, 2011)

Forgiveness is a hard thing. For years, my husband took me for granted and I was finally done. I had said I was "done" many times, but this was the final straw. I left for the entire day, he called about 15 times, I finally answered and he was still angry, so I didn't go back for several more hours. He has recently done a 180. He said that I need to let the past be the past, and how he's trying now, etc. However, from personal experience it's very hard for me to let go of the past. Maybe that's what your wife is going through. Let me tell you, a battle between heart and mind are the worse. 

I would try to go to MC, especially since you have children. Both of you need to realize what happened, so even if you don't stay together, you'll have closure. 

I know this probably wasn't helpful, but it's also very hard to pour your heart out in a blog, and know people are viewing it without replying. I wish you luck.


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## Walt (Jul 17, 2011)

silveryposter said:


> Her complete lack of willingness to go any further is a real turn-off. I understand that she reached the "I'm done" point about a month before I did, and that I got on this website a little too late and made some mistakes along the way. However, the refusal to see things as they are now and to be able to forgive is just beyond my comprehension.
> 
> Where I'm on the fence is wether or not to go ahead and go to MC as I planned, or to just say F*** it and move on. We still have some major communication issues that we will need to resolve to be good co-parents to the children, and I'm hoping that at the least we can figure some of that out during MC.
> 
> ...


Are you in IC? If not, I'd highly advise it. 

Regardless of whether or not your M makes it, you have issues that you need to work on. We all do. Those issues will only follow you to your next relationship. Take the time now to get started. Who knows, it might even help the current M.

My IC made the point to me that marriage is like its own ecosystem. If you make a change in it (make it hotter, colder, etc.), everything else will change. You started that with the man-up stuff. Now, you need to man-up emotionally.

You can't make her change. You can only change yourself. If she's done, the M is done. You can't do it alone. 

Perhaps you need to look into D or separation. 

Best of luck. Sorry you're here.


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## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

I am currently in IC, and that's been helpful to a degree.

One of the hardest things to accept is that there is no magic word that will snap her out of her unwillingness to work on our marriage. I keep thinking of things that make sense to me, but that won't work if she's not willing.

What it comes down to, I think (not sure because she's said she doesn't want to talk about or even really know) is that she feels afraid that I'll let her down again. She put so much love and emotion and passion into the relationship, and now she feels betrayed and used (because I didn't see that her needs weren't being met). Because we had such and deep connection for nearly 15 years before the falling out, the blow was about as deep as it gets for both of us. The difference is that I've never stopped working to improve our, and when she didn't respond, my situation.

From my point of view, all it would take to be on the road to healing would be a simple perspective/attitude change. But she is so far gone, I think she views me as poison in her life, that I don't know if she'll ever get there. In the past few months, she's made an effort to improve every aspect of her life, except her marriage. She's forgiven friends that upset and were mean to her, but not me. She done her own 180, but it doesn't include me. However, I'm done chasing, as it just frustrates me and probably has a negative effect on our relationship.

I can't tell her that I won't let her down again, that would be counterproductive; she has to have that realization on her own. Best thing I've come up with is just to keep on with the 180, be a shining light in my own and my family's life, and just hope the upcoming MC gets her thinking about some things.


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## Walt (Jul 17, 2011)

silveryposter;413059
But she is so far gone said:


> Three thoughts for you
> 
> EA/PA possible
> She's depressed
> ...


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## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

As far as the EA/PA goes, I believe she's being truthful when she says there isn't anyone else.

However, as far as her staying for the kids, that's not the case. Unfortunately she wants ME to leave. I've been a SAHD for 6 years (which was part of the problem that we didn't recognize) and therefore the primary caregiver. Additionally, although she works from home, her job requires travel for a few days at a time. If she were to leave, this would be a whole lot easier. But she doesn't want to give up what she view as HER things (she's been primary breadwinner) by moving out of the house.

She's asked me to stay a little while longer so we can have a smooth transition for everyone's sake, but I can't be absolutely sure that she doesn't want me around a while longer so she can go out without hiring a babysitter.

I've always been supportive of her going out with her friends, and even gone out with before the fallout. But if I move out, I will be financially unable to watch the kids whenever she wants; I'll have to be working to pay bills, living expenses etc.

If she is that far gone that there is no coming back, then a good working relationship is indeed the goal of MC. I imagine we'll find out in the first session or two if there is any hope of reconciliation. If there isn't, then I'm all for moving on to someone who actually cares about me. But if there is even the slightest hope that she is willing to work on us, then I'm there. I made a commitment, not only to her but to my children, and I won't walk away unless hope is dead beyond a shadow of a doubt.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

silveryposter said:


> As far as the EA/PA goes, I believe she's being truthful when she says there isn't anyone else.
> 
> However, as far as her staying for the kids, that's not the case. Unfortunately she wants ME to leave. I've been a SAHD for 6 years (which was part of the problem that we didn't recognize) and therefore the primary caregiver. Additionally, although she works from home, her job requires travel for a few days at a time. If she were to leave, this would be a whole lot easier. But she doesn't want to give up what she view as HER things (she's been primary breadwinner) by moving out of the house.
> 
> ...


Sorry to burst your bubble. You will find out nothing in the first session. It is going to be bad. It takes a long time for mc to even start having a good effect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

bluebeauty said:


> I would try to go to MC, especially since you have children. Both of you need to realize what happened, so even if you don't stay together, you'll have closure.


Sorry for the late thank you, and I just wanted to say that I'm hoping for an understanding. If it leads to trying to reconcile, great. If it leads to closure on our marriage, emotionally as well as legally, great. Either way, I'm just looking for an understanding.

Thanks again for your, and others' replies.


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## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

Walt said:


> I think your W is being direct with you. You're just not listening.


She is being direct, and I am listening. However, I am no longer agreeing. She has driven the bus since deciding in January that she'd had enough. I've done many things, and am overall a happier person for it, but our marriage continues to be just a partnership.

She's asked me to move out, to get a divorce, etc. so she can move on with her life. At this point, while I think we are (finally) on the same page about our relationship, we disagree on the best course of action. To her the best course is to quit, have me move out, and come babysit the kids every so often, while trying to maintain a friendly relationship with me. To me, the best course is to talk openly and freely about expectations over the next 5 years, see the challenges may be in those next 5 years, and then decide what the best course for our marriage and our children would be.

Again, while we agree on where we are currently, we don't on where to go from here.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

If she wants out so bad, she can leave. I told my wife "there is the door". We are now 11 months since the I think I want out speech. Improvements have come. I think I actually like her again. Remember, forgiveness is setting a prisoner free and then realizing that prisoner was you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iaminhell (Sep 4, 2011)

yeah well heres my thoughts on it. You don't sound angry and that's a good thing. In my marriage of 13 years I can't stop crying after physical and emotional abuse. 
Marriage is worth it if you can let her be who she is and just go to m/c. Give it one more shot. sorry for your pain. Good luck


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## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies. I've been trying to adhere to the 180 rules a bit better, and see where that takes me.

Also, I just read this...

“Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.” ~Zsa Zsa

Got me thinking about why you do marry someone. To me it's because you see the opportunity for growth in every situation you can imagine. When times are good, when they are bad, and everything in-between, you can see your partner their for you.

Which brings me to one of my frustrations. Though I've not stopped hoping, as well as actively making improvements in my and our life, my wife stopped seeing any opportunity for growth between us back in January.

This is a major issue for me. It empowers me in that I know realize that even though the love may have faded, I've always been there and willing to do whatever I could during this process. I've continued to see this as an opportunity for growth. That she no longer has that capability or has switched it off is a major turn-off.

Doing the 180 and not bringing up relationship issues is one of the toughest things I try to keep doing, but I keep thinking that there is something that will break through the barrier.

Does anyone think that some tactful mentioning of Zsa Zsa quote (I'd refrain from the source) and its application would do any good? Or would it likely just cause resentment?


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## Walt (Jul 17, 2011)

With all due respect, please stop trying to think about how to change your W. You can't. You can't argue/reason with her. The only person you can change is yourself (and you already know that!).

Also, DON'T move out. Doing so could set a precedents for custody later on.

Have you actually discussed what a D would look like (money, distribution of assets, who retains the houses, custody, etc.)?
When my W and I started to do this, the reality for her was shocking. Not being able to stay in the martial home was a real awakening for her.


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## silveryposter (Jul 30, 2011)

Walt said:


> With all due respect, please stop trying to think about how to change your W.


You're right, though I've been viewing it as trying to change her perspective, it's essentially the same thing. The best I can do is just lead by example.



Walt said:


> Have you actually discussed what a D would look like (money, distribution of assets, who retains the houses, custody, etc.)?
> When my W and I started to do this, the reality for her was shocking. Not being able to stay in the martial home was a real awakening for her.


We've been addressing some of the more general concepts, the details we haven't really gotten to. Though when the details do come up, it's definitely been something she doesn't want to hear the reality of. Sometime in the next 2 weeks we are supposed to be starting the planning process. I imagine that won't be pleasant for her to come face to face with, but I'm not hoping for any grand revelation from her.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Silver why are you letting her define what I'd going to happen? Why are you moving out of your home and family? If she wants out, she should be the one to leave and to pay family support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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