# What Are The Long Term Effects Of An Affair?



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

What Are The Long Term Effects Of An Affair?

By: Katie Lersch: Sometimes, when your spouse is having an affair, it’s very difficult to think beyond tomorrow – much less well into the future. But once the shock wears off and the dust settles, many faithful spouses realize that this is exactly what they have to do. Because, in order to make a sound decision about the course of your marriage, it makes sense to consider what your marriage might look (and feel like) into the future. But this is often difficult to gage and it’s a topic that you know is so important that you don’t want to just guess at it.

I might hear from a wife who says: “my husband is begging me not to leave him because of his affair. I have agreed to wait a couple of months before I make a decision. But sometimes, I regret making this promise. I truly would like to save my marriage, but I’m not going to be naive about it either. My husband likes to pretend that we can just pick up our marriage like the affair never happened. I know that this is very short sighted. I know that this isn’t reality. I have had friends who have dealt with the reality of an affair and it seems to me that almost all of them continue to struggle, long after the affair is over. I’m just wanting to understand what are the long term effects of an affair on a marriage? What does our long term future look like?”

This is a very difficult question to answer. Because honestly, the answers depend upon several variables like the depth of the deception, the length of the affair, the state of the couple’s marriage after the affair, and the amount of work done during recovery.

The Long Terms Effects Of An Affair Can Be Both Positive And Negative. But The Marriage Is Rarely Completely Unchanged: While the truth is that it’s very likely that you are not going to have the same marriage after the affair, what is often up in the air is whether this will weaken or strengthen your marriage. To be fair, I’m going to list common negative and positive long term effects after an affair because I feel like both are completely possible. Honestly, the course that you end up on is, at least in some ways, up to you and your spouse and how much work and effort you’re willing to undertake.

Some people don’t believe their spouse deserves their efforts and this is a fair argument. I understand it. I’m not trying to tell you what you should do. I’d just like to give you a glimpse into possible outcomes, keeping in mind that all couples are different.

*Negative Long Term Effects Of An Affair:* I would say that most every couple knows those neighbors or mutual friends who have a marriage that is rocked by an affair but who never truly recovers. Although this couple stays together, it’s often clear that they are doing so reluctantly and that there is still a good deal of anger present. There can also be resentment by both parties. The faithful spouse has resentment for obvious reasons. She has been wronged. But the cheating spouse can feel resentful too. Because he can feel as if he’s going to have to pay for this mistake forever. And he can feel as if his spouse wants to make him grovel for the rest of his life, no matter how remorseful he is and no matter how much he tries to make amends.

In short, this couple is beaten down. Both of the are well aware that this isn’t a great marriage and that neither one is happy or at peace. But, they just accept this as their lot in life. Often, they really do not want to live this way. They would like for things to be better. But they just do not know how to cross over toward healing. And so they feel stuck, frustrated, and a little bit angry most of the time. At the same time, they don’t want to let their spouse off of the hook by just walking away.

*Positive Long Term Effects Of An Affair:* I hope that the above couple of paragraphs weren’t too depressing. There is some good news. First, couples like the ones described above don’t have to live this way forever. You can always chose a new way. You can always begin to heal even when you think it has been way too long.

And, some couples actually find themselves in better marriages than before the affair. I know that this is hard to believe. When a therapist told me this, I thought she was only trying to sell her services to us, at one of the most awful times in our marriage. But, with time, I can tell you that this is true. I’ve seen it in my own life and in the life of others. It is not easy. It is not automatic. And it’s also not constant. There are ups and downs. I’m not going to tell you that every day in my marriage is rosy and that I never think about the affair because that wouldn’t be true.

But I can tell you that bad days are mostly rare. In fact, our communication today is actually stronger than it ever was. We speak up if there is something wrong because we know what can happen when we become complacent. I have also made big changes in myself and in the way that I look at marriage and all relationships. My relationship with my husband is something I chose. It is not something that I depend on to define myself. Never again will I depend on someone else for my own happiness and self esteem. I trust my husband. I do not believe that he will cheat again. But if he does, it’s not going to make me think less of myself. I spent a lot of time building myself up and becoming the type of person that I want to be. In part because of the affair, I have learned that all I can really control is myself and the way that I live my life. This has changed my outlook on control. I used to want to control my husband, keep him on a short leash, and make him feel guilty if he disappointed me. Now, I realize that this is manipulation based on fear. And it’s not the way that I want to live my life. I can be responsible for my own happiness. And in turn, this has opened up our relationship so that we feel much less pressure. We know that we are both here because we want to be. And this really has transformed our relationship.

I hope this article has shown you that there are almost always long term consequences of an affair. Your marriage is rarely unchanged. But those changes can be positive and negative.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

IMO She way undersold the negative consequences of the affair...as for the WSs "resentment" - hard for me to feel sorry for them since they blew the whole thing up...can anyone add more either positive or negative to her list?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By T*ruthseeker and katie*
> I’m just wanting to understand what are the long term effects of an affair on a marriage?


Your post above does a good job of describing some of the possible negative and positives of an affair. I will condense those negatives and positives and add a few of my own below:

Negative: “Anger-Resentment”…. 

I will add trapped and with those negatives it lessens the positives you can give the children. You may have less trust, less admiration in the betrayer, and have unsettled security.

Positives:	“Better communication, prompt you to make positive changes in yourself, become more self-sufficient in your self-esteem, you get a better understanding of the fact that you can only control yourself and not others.

I will add that you can be prompted to build in your spiritual life and be more of a giver to your family. By becoming more self-sufficient you have less fear of betrayal and gain in security. *You get strong enough that you know that you can live with them or without them*.





> What does our long term future look like?”


As you have stated this depends on several factors as you have described below



> Because honestly, the answers depend upon several variables like the depth of the deception, the length of the affair, the state of the couple’s marriage after the affair, and the amount of work done during recovery.


In my case with some success in reconciliation, this is what it looks like:

You eventually get to the point that the betrayal does not affect your life to any great degree.* It will always affect you in some ways but not to a degree that keeps you from having a good life. *

You are forced to give up some of the idealism that you may have had about marriage. Some of these ideals are:

That you can always trust your spouse to never stab you in the back.
That your spouse will always have your best interest at heart.
That your spouse has very strong integrity and strong beliefs that they will hold on to no matter what.
The traditional marriage vows as listed below do not apply to your marriage any longer:



> Do you promise to love her/him, comfort her/him, honor and keep her/him for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and health, and forsaking all others, be faithful only to her/him, for as long as you both shall live.



*As a BS, I have been in R for over 20 years and I have a good life almost all of the time.* I have a very good relationship with my children and grandchildren and other family members. My marriage is good most of the time, satisfactory at others times, and poor on very rare occasions.

I have heard some people say that the marriage after betrayal can be great. That may be true for some people but it is not true in my case. *I do not have to have a great marriage to have a good life and that is what my long term future as proven so far.*

Hope my post helps someone.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> d most of the time, satisfactory at others times, and poor on very rare occasions.
> 
> I have heard some people say that the marriage after betrayal can be great. That may be true for some people but it is not true in my case. *I do not have to have a great marriage to have a good life and that is what my long term future as proven so far.*
> 
> Hope my post helps someone.[/COLOR]


It is a very helpful and *VERY REAL *post...and I agree in my experience the marriages that do stay together after infidelity seem to be like this - the BS usually takes satisfaction from other areas of life and not the marriage - wise words Mr Blunt - that you do not need to have a great marriage for a good life...I think in most if not all cases you can never put it all back together again but it can be good enough to enjoy other aspects of life...WSs really have no idea how they permanently damage things do they?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Mr Blunt said:


> ..


Excellent post mr blunt, this is how i feel 4 years into R. I am so busy with a great career and hobbies that my M is no longer what i need in life to be happy, its just a part of it. I dont think the prior notion i had about M being your primary source was healthy at all. 
I hardly think much about my wife A, i mean i havent forgot and little things cause some trigger here n there, but not too painful at all, just a faint memory easy to overcome. Our M is better in most regards, some hiccups here n there but cant expect perfection. 
Marriage is hard, think about it, live with someone else your entire life, that may sound simple but its actually pretty hard when you consider is two different people, moods, attitudes, etc.....hell i cant get along with myself a lot of Times


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Excellent post mr blunt, this is how i feel 4 years into R. I am so busy with a great career and hobbies that my M is no longer what i need in life to be happy, its just a part of it. I dont think the prior notion i had about M being your primary source was healthy at all.
> I hardly think much about my wife A, i mean i havent forgot and little things cause some trigger here n there, but not too painful at all, just a faint memory easy to overcome. Our M is better in most regards, some hiccups here n there but cant expect perfection.
> Marriage is hard, think about it, live with someone else your entire life, that may sound simple but its actually pretty hard when you consider is two different people, moods, attitudes, etc.....hell i cant get along with myself a lot of Times


Has your perception of your wife been forever altered/ It seems so or am I wrong?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Truthseeker*
> WSs really have no idea how they permanently damage things do they?



I think that is very true pre-discovery of the affair. Most eventually discover the enormous damage after the consequences are very evident but then it is too late. One of the positives that can come from reading a forum like this is that maybe some will read this forum that have not committed betrayal and can get a glimpse of the devastation and change their attitudes and actions.

*When spouses that have children betray they also damage innocent children, not just the spouse and themselves.* Betrayal causes enormous damage for years and sometimes for a life time and all you mostly get from betrayal is you get your warped feelings, sexual organs, and ego tickled for short time.

*What do you gain in the long run when you get all the illicit sex you want but lose your integrity and respect from your spouse and children?*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> *When spouses that have children betray they also damage innocent children, not just the spouse and themselves.* Betrayal causes enormous damage for years and sometimes for a life time and all you mostly get from betrayal is you get your warped feelings, sexual organs, and ego tickled for short time.
> 
> *What do you gain in the long run when you get all the illicit sex you want but lose your integrity and respect from your spouse and children?*[/COLOR]


The effect on children is enormous...I know over a dozen children of infidelity..maybe more..about half have gone on to cheat themselves...adultery might end but the reverberations last for decades...there is no way to avoid the aftershocks of cheating...like I have seen written many times before "I hope a little bit of starange was worth it" 

I've seen some posts here and on other sites where BSs go through all sorts of therapies to get over being cheating on.some of the most unbelievable cases I've seen is when spouses cheat in reasonably happy marriage - WTF is that about? How do you do that?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Your post above does a good job of describing some of the possible negative and positives of an affair. I will condense those negatives and positives and add a few of my own below:
> 
> Negative: “Anger-Resentment”….
> 
> ...


*Certainly not with the vast majority of infidelity victims!*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Certainly not witch the vast majority of infidelity victims!*


Agreed..I remember reading an article where the WW referred to her affair as a "cruel blessing" or some such nonsense but after her BH had his own affair it wasn't such a "cruel blessing" - see how that works? Convenient isnt it?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ultimately it diminishes the institution of marriage. It makes people especially young people not want to get married. I think this is particularly true when the betrayal is egregious and the BS continues in the abusive relationship.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> IMO She way undersold the negative consequences of the affair...as for the WSs "resentment" - hard for me to feel sorry for them since they blew the whole thing up...can anyone add more either positive or negative to her list?


You wonder what the resentment and pain does to people physically. What sickness is brought on by stress.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You wonder what the resentment and pain does to people physically. What sickness is brought on by stress.


Oh yeah - stress in general is a killer but this is stress on steroids...I've read so many posts here and on another site where the BS twists themselves into a pretzel to beat the stress....what really p!sses me off is when a WS complains about the stress they are under from their BSs pain and agony..have you ever read a post like that? Makes my blood boil - they blow up the house and then complain about the debris...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Ultimately it diminishes the institution of marriage. It makes people especially young people not want to get married. I think this is particularly true when the betrayal is egregious and the BS continues in the abusive relationship.


I've personally known and read of cases where there is not one AP but multiple APs or an LTA that spanned years or sex in the home or even the marital bed..you name it...I'm not quite sure what is left to save after a spouse has cross so many bright red lines of decency...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The effect on children is enormous...I know over a dozen children of infidelity..maybe more..about half have gone on to cheat themselves...adultery might end but the reverberations last for decades...there is no way to avoid the aftershocks of cheating...like I have seen written many times before "I hope a little bit of starange was worth it"


I talked about this in another post on here but I can attest to this. After my father cheated on my Mother and left when I was 7 I believe for the next 3 years I basically raised myself in a lot of ways. My schooling suffered my relationships with my friends suffered as I spent a lot of time alone and sad. It took me until the end of high school to catch up academically. I needed help but there was no one there to do that for about 3 years, I don't blame my Mother she was crushed. 

I believe also part of why I ended up with my first love who I proposed to and who was cheating on me was because I didn't have a good frame of reference of a good relationship and in a lot of ways I settled for a women who was really a poor choice. She had poor boundaries and I overlooked them because honestly I didn't think I was worthy of a girl who was more solid. At the time I saw myself as a child of divorce, kind of an outsider and so was she. I romanticized the idea of two misfits. I also lacked confidence at the time. 

My wife now comes from a much more stable family. Funny thing was her parents asked me about being a child of divorce and what I thought of that when I ask for her hand. Now THEY are divorcing. I wonder if that question was really not directed at me but her Mom to her father. My wife was definitely more successful in her younger years then I was. I think that comes from being in a stable environment. 

Being cheated on caused me to look at a lot of the damage that my childhood did. The problems in my childhood were a direct result of my fathers cheating. I spent some time IC figuring that out. 

My mother ended up marring my verbally abusive step-father which I think was partly because she had given up after what my Dad did. Her father died when she was very young and she never learned to pick good men. In a sense many of the problems can be traced to him and his death. My step-father also created havoc in my childhood. I think I would have been much more confident a lot quicker if I had had a stable environment to grow up in. I feel like in a lot of ways, educationally, emotionally, confidence-wise I was like 10 years behind. 

I don't believe you can be a good parent and cheat on your kids Father or Mother. When WS say this this is just another of their delusions.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Excellent post mr blunt, this is how i feel 4 years into R. I am so busy with a great career and hobbies that my M is no longer what i need in life to be happy, its just a part of it. I dont think the prior notion i had about M being your primary source was healthy at all.
> I hardly think much about my wife A, i mean i havent forgot and little things cause some trigger here n there, but not too painful at all, just a faint memory easy to overcome. Our M is better in most regards, some hiccups here n there but cant expect perfection.
> Marriage is hard, think about it, live with someone else your entire life, that may sound simple but its actually pretty hard when you consider is two different people, moods, attitudes, etc.....hell i cant get along with myself a lot of Times


What would happen if you should meet someone whom you though might offer you a better marriage. I know for me that would be one of the reasons I couldn't R. It would be very hard to be loyal to someone who wasn't loyal to me. Since I wouldn't want to be that person I couldn't stay in that situation. I guess part of me would feel like the loyalty in the marriage didn't really matter to her anyway. Then again I don't really believe the marriage exist once there is cheating. I see the contract as broken anyway. I think I would have to divorce and remarry my wife again and have new vows. The inequity of having one person brake the vows and the other have to keep them is just to much for me.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> I will add trapped and with those negatives it lessens the positives you can give the children. You may have less trust, less admiration in the betrayer, and have unsettled security.
> 
> Positives:	“Better communication, prompt you to make positive changes in yourself, become more self-sufficient in your self-esteem, you get a better understanding of the fact that you can only control yourself and not others.
> 
> ...


The parts I highlighted in red made me feel melancholy. Mr. Blunt is good at putting concepts into words.

I would also add that a positive of infidelity is that it has exposed weaknesses I didn't know I had until I was completely broken. After being broken the weak areas became exaggerated. I hope to shore up the weak areas and someday be a more independent, better, stronger, less fearful, more forgiving person than I was before the A. Has anyone else experienced this?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I've personally known and read of cases where there is not one AP but multiple APs or an LTA that spanned years or sex in the home or even the marital bed..you name it...I'm not quite sure what is left to save after a spouse has cross so many bright red lines of decency...


Well you know my reputation on here, I am sure saying this will not go over well but I think the people who are quick to R after terrible abuse actually contribute to societal infidelity. I think there is a general attitude by WS "well they will get over it, it's not a big deal, it can't be since they won't leave me", and so many of them are right about that. You have to think deep down inside they think maybe it was worth it. How many WW have girlfriends who have done it first and basically got away with, have then led them down that path. This is part of the reason that I rarely think R is a happy ending. There is more at stake then just two people. Great wrongs without consequence and justice makes a mockery of right an wrong, even if they end up staying together this should not be celebrated. It's like when a murder or rapist (I know it's not the same) is rehabilitated it doesn't make the damage go away. 

There is a guy on SI whose wife spent a week with her AP, just up and left for a week. He told the kids but he is probably going to R. What does that say to his kids? In my mind there are way too many people willing to be abused and basically do nothing about it. I read that in Holland basically everyone cheats, and that is just seen as how marriage works. We are headed there, partly because of the lack of consequences. IMHO.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> The parts I highlighted in red made me feel melancholy. Mr. Blunt is good at putting concepts into words.
> 
> I would also add that a positive of infidelity is that it has exposed weaknesses I didn't know I had until I was completely broken. After being broken the weak areas became exaggerated. I hope to shore up the weak areas and someday be a more independent, better, stronger, less fearful, more forgiving person than I was before the A. Has anyone else experienced this?


Read my last post. I had a terrible time after my first love cheated on me, we weren't married but I had just proposed. I tried to R for about 3 weeks and then finally ghosted. I figured out it was a trap, I wouldn't be happy with her and I wouldn't be happy without her. Anyway I then spent 2 years feeling like I would never love again and I had to give up on that dream. But for about 6 months after I was like catatonic. Like completely broken. This forced me to get some serious IC. I mean people were saying this is too much you need to get some help. So I did. 

What I ended up learning was that a lot of my pain was also because of my parents divorce. It was all wrapped up into one. However one thing my Mother (again read my last posts to get her story) told me was if you can get through this you can get through anything, she would know. I used that to give me confidence. Nothing could be worse then those days, except maybe losing a child. Anyway I say all that to say, what it did for me was force me to address my issues from my parents divorce and my rough childhood. It also ended up giving me confidence that I was a lot stronger then I thought. Finally it convinced me that I could never again make another person my entire source of happiness and confidence. It's just too risky and also not healthy for you or the person you are with. Doing that is really being codependent. You need to be a whole person besides your spouse. 

I always describe what you are going though as emotional boot camp. It was for me. It sucks but use it to make you stronger, to teach you about yourself and relationship. meaning study about them, and about yourself. Is there a reason why you picked the person you did? Stuff like that. At least get something positive out of it. The best lesson to take out of being cheated on is that if you can get through it the first time you can get though anything.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Well you know my reputation on here, I am sure saying this will not go over well but I think the people who are quick to R after terrible abuse actually contribute to societal infidelity.
> I think there is a general attitude by WS "well they will get over it, it's not a big deal, it can't be since they won't leave me", and so many of them are right about that. You have to think deep down inside they think maybe it was worth it. How many WW have girlfriends who have done it first and basically got away with, have then led them down that path. This is part of the reason that I rarely think R is a happy ending. There is more at stake then just two people. Great wrongs without consequence and justice makes a mockery of right an wrong, even if they end up staying together this should not be celebrated. It's like when a murder or rapist (I know it's not the same) is rehabilitated it doesn't make the damage go away.


That's some really messed up logic. Maybe I'll come back around to dissecting it, if that's even possible.

@Truthseeker1 Katie Lersch is just a made up name ezine author and fake blogger (ACTUALLY AN AFFILIATE) writing fake click-bait hoping to make money using click-bank from infidelity predator authors Huzienga and Gunzberg. I forget the word they use for our genre but we are a desperate bunch that will pay whatever to find the magic bullet to "save our marriages" and there's a new batch of betrayed spouses every day searching google for the answer to their "secret" problem.

She (could be a he or she) actually discloses the affiliate relationship on a tab at the top of the blog.

Doesn't make the content worthless to talk about but it's not real, it's not genuine and he/she/it is not an expert. It likely experienced betrayal but is really just a writer trying to cash in anyway it can be making up whatever story she can think of answering generally every question she can think of on the subject.

He/she/it has 1,193 and counting ezine articles on the subject already. 

*I didn't make an exhaustive search so he/she/it could be a real person somewhere but on first perusal, it's fake.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I talked about this in another post on here but I can attest to this. After my father cheated on my Mother and left when I was 7 I believe for the next 3 years I basically raised myself in a lot of ways. My schooling suffered my relationships with my friends suffered as I spent a lot of time alone and sad. It took me until the end of high school to catch up academically. I needed help but there was no one there to do that for about 3 years, I don't blame my Mother she was crushed.
> 
> I believe also part of why I ended up with my first love who I proposed to and who was cheating on me was because I didn't have a good frame of reference of a good relationship and in a lot of ways I settled for a women who was really a poor choice. She had poor boundaries and I overlooked them because honestly I didn't think I was worthy of a girl who was more solid. At the time I saw myself as a child of divorce, kind of an outsider and so was she. I romanticized the idea of two misfits. I also lacked confidence at the time.
> 
> ...


Infidelity has a lot of vitims outside of the 2 BSs doesnt it? It is not just a betrayal of your spouse but of your whole family - it can blow up your entire life...


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

It really depends on whether you believe that you are half of a couple and sexual pleasure should be only given to each other and not anyone else. My wife and I are married for 44+ years and we shared a girlfriend for 30 years, both together and alone. I had a few girlfriends for many months at a time. It was never a problem for us. Our connection in marriage is not sex. It is knowing that we will grow old together and put each other and our marriage first in all things. I never worried that my wife would leave me to marry a woman or man, and she never worried about me. Never any jealousy or even an argument concerning our sex life.

The whole relationship lockdown breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you! Many things affect your erotic feelings and needs negatively, such as bills to pay, kids, work, etc.. Some times you cannot provide or get the erotic charge that you need in life from your partner. We feel what is called compersion, which is being happy for each others sexual enjoyment with others. 

For most an affair can destroy the trust that sex is only for each other. They make it the cornerstone of their marriage and borders on a feeling or ownership of each others pleasure. On the positive side, the happiness that one in an affair has, can carry over into their marriage and make it better. No more being bitter due to an infrequent and/or boring sex life. No more being taken for granted. Instead you feel desirable and attractive. The best part of an affair is that it is limited to only the fun and games of a relationship. No bills to pay, no trash to take out and no one criticizing things that you do. Just a mutual attraction and sexual desire. 

Despite a 50% fail rate, people still cling to the same marriage model that once had a good reason to exist but not so much anymore. Who enters into a lifelong contract with serious consequences if broken, with a 50/50 chance of making it. The reason why this still happens is because love blinds us and we all think it will never happen to us, until it does. An affair does not have to end a marriage unless you think it should So it is a matter of perspective.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> That's some really messed up logic. Maybe I'll come back around to dissecting it, if that's even possible.
> 
> @Truthseeker1 Katie Lersch is just a made up name ezine author and fake blogger (ACTUALLY AN AFFILIATE) writing fake click-bait hoping to make money using click-bank from infidelity predator authors Huzienga and Gunzberg. I forget the word they use for our genre but we are a desperate bunch that will pay whatever to find the magic bullet to "save our marriages" and there's a new batch of betrayed spouses every day searching google for the answer to their "secret" problem.
> 
> ...


How did I know you would show up. :grin2:

You and I should do a radio show. I am sure everyone rolls their eyes when you and I get going. I know I do.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> What Are The Long Term Effects Of An Affair?


Whoever has had an affair will have some long term memories of having sex with their affair partner/s. I also expect some of those experiences will be remembered quite fondly.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Vinnydee said:


> {Edited out so those blocking V.D. don't have to read a bunch of really hurtful swinger rationalizations and justifications celebrating infidelity}


How gross.

Double gross to celebrate infidelity on a sub-forum full of people "coping with infidelity" in their lives.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Personal said:


> Whoever has had an affair will have some long term memories of having sex with their affair partner/s. I also expect some of those experiences will be remembered quite fondly.


Seems to be the case there is a post on SI W board about just that, even the ones who want to forget are obsessed with them, I don't know how a BS can feel anything else but plan B when that is the case. It's brutal.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Personal said:


> Whoever has had an affair will have some long term memories of having sex with their affair partner/s. I also expect some of those experiences will be remembered quite fondly.


Any WS who says they did not enjoy the high of the affair or the nasty affair sex is lying....what they dont like is paying the bill for getting caught..its the fall out they hate not the sex...especially any spouse who has had a LTA to then turn around and say well I slept with my lover for 6 years but it wasnt all that - yeah ok...they in fact enjoyed the seduction, the sneaking around and yes the sex..perhaps some parts were more exciting than others but they were having a good time especially if they went back to their lover repeatedly and had sex...

In the end reconciliation does involve your WS getting away with it on some level..and every BS deals with that fact differently..but it does not make it any less the case IMO


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Read my last post. I had a terrible time after my first love cheated on me, we weren't married but I had just proposed. I tried to R for about 3 weeks and then finally ghosted. I figured out it was a trap, I wouldn't be happy with her and I wouldn't be happy without her. Anyway I then spent 2 years feeling like I would never love again and I had to give up on that dream. But for about 6 months after I was like catatonic. Like completely broken. This forced me to get some serious IC. I mean people were saying this is too much you need to get some help. So I did.
> 
> What I ended up learning was that a lot of my pain was also because of my parents divorce. It was all wrapped up into one. However one thing my Mother (again read my last posts to get her story) told me was if you can get through this you can get through anything, she would know.  I used that to give me confidence. Nothing could be worse then those days, except maybe losing a child. Anyway I say all that to say, what it did for me was force me to address my issues from my parents divorce and my rough childhood. It also ended up giving me confidence that I was a lot stronger then I thought. Finally it convinced me that I could never again make another person my entire source of happiness and confidence. It's just too risky and also not healthy for you or the person you are with. Doing that is really being codependent. You need to be a whole person besides your spouse.
> 
> I always describe what you are going though as emotional boot camp. It was for me. It sucks but use it to make you stronger, to teach you about yourself and relationship. meaning study about them, and about yourself. Is there a reason why you picked the person you did? Stuff like that. At least get something positive out of it. The best lesson to take out of being cheated on is that if you can get through it the first time you can get though anything.


As far as "long term effects of an affair"....Sokillme's are actually quite commonplace for the children of divorce after an affair and SoKillMe appears to be one of the luckier ones that figured it out before destroying himself with booze, drugs, women and other self-destructive behaviors. Our prisons are FULL UP of children from broken homes {many a result of infidelity}.

Hearing such stories, saddens me for what you've endured but I can't save everyone or every marriage. Just glad my children didn't have endure that resulting consequence to them of isolation, loneliness and vulnerability. Not to mention the on-going fear(s) of intimacy. Co-dependence isn't a dirty word. It's actually what marriage is supposed to be. Being "inter-dependent" in a completely healthy loving marriage devoid of ongoing behavior issues like substance abuse, mental health issues and/or physical abuse is actually pretty awesome. 

I'm not saying recovery is a must. Some people can't do it and some can. Actually a lot of people can do it. Just like MOST Veterans come home from war and do OK {and some thrive} whereas others suffer for years or even endlessly due to the experience. Some of that depends on the individual and some of that depends on how bad the experience actually was. My fight for my wife and family 2 decades ago was hard but I've seen and heard much worse. We've completely overcome it and actually use the entire experience to help other couples deal and have hope with their current marital struggles {and teach younger couples to affair proof their relationships to the extent possible ~~ or, at least, consider the term RISK}. I really haven't suffered any "long term consequences" and by recovering like we have {a better marriage} we seem to have minimized, to the extent possible {there are always consequences to every choice, including divorce} the consequences in our situation for everyone involved. I didn't do it "for the kids" but it certainly was a consideration when determining whether to initially even try. 

God and His angels love a good marital recovery and, I feel, we've been doubly blessed as a result of our trust and faith in Him demonstrated by our forbearance, repentance and forgiveness. Our Christian counselor drilled this quote into our heads ~~ "your lives will be better off not because of infidelity, but in spite of it". 

What was meant for evil, God uses for good


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> My fight for my wife and family 2 decades ago was hard but I've seen and heard much worse. We've completely overcome it and actually use the entire experience to help other couples deal and have hope with their current marital struggles {and teach younger couples to affair proof their relationships to the extent possible ~~ or, at least, consider the term RISK}. I really haven't suffered any "long term consequences" and by recovering like we have {a better marriage} we seem to have minimized, to the extent possible {there are always consequences to every choice, including divorce} the consequences in our situation for everyone involved. I didn't do it "for the kids" but it certainly was a consideration when determining whether to initially even try.


Dude you spend all your time scanning this board, doing research on articles, authors and posters so you can attack them if they says R is not a healthy choice. It's really the only time you post on here. No other subject is touched by you. Basically your whole life has been dedicated and based around this incident in your life that happened 2 decades ago. Ever thought if you moved on and not R you might not even be on this board fighting with me? It may just be a small painful event in your past not an all encompassing life's mission that it turned into for you. How much time has this subject been spent in your life. What would that time have been spent on if it didn't happen. You really don't see that you have had an entire lifetime of consequences, it changed the direction of your entire life. It seems to have become your life's purpose. Now maybe you think that it turned out for good and maybe it's true, but maybe also you would have cured cancer. Self-awareness doesn't seem to be one of your strongest qualities quality.

Just saying you are at least as screwed up as I am.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Any WS who says they did not enjoy the high of the affair or the nasty affair sex is lying....what they dont like is paying the bill for getting caught..its the fall out they hate not the sex...especially any spouse who has had a LTA to then turn around and say well I slept with my lover for 6 years but it wasnt all that - yeah ok...they in fact enjoyed the seduction, the sneaking around and yes the sex..perhaps some parts were more exciting than others but they were having a good time especially if they went back to their lover repeatedly and had sex...
> 
> In the end reconciliation does involve your WS getting away with it on some level..and every BS deals with that fact differently..but it does not make it any less the case IMO


I think it is much worse when the BS twists themselves in knots to try to avoid those uncomfortable facts. Your WS probably did "love" their AP maybe not in the holy pure sense but in the lustful, I need you, early stages of a relationship sense. Though with long term affairs they had to mean something to them. I mean long term stuff is even worse it's almost like two marriages. 

They probably enjoyed every moment of it. Lots of he initial sadness is also probably partly them getting over their "love" for their AP. This is who these people are, now maybe they can change. But at least look at it with your eyes open. Also you should be aware that what you mean when you say love and what they mean probably are not the same things. Also most WS, at least the kind that can live basically two lives have some serious issues that take a lot of work and a long time to fix. If you choose to R there is really no justice for you. It's just something you learn to live with.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I big negative IMHO is knowing what your spouse is capable of. Even if you R and things are going well years later, you will always know the he/she could do it again if they wanted to. And this time they would be more skillful at covering their tracks. So the long term effect is trust is gone for all. 

The only positive I can think of is using your own experience with infidelity (from either side but especially the WS side) to council others with relationship problems. I for one have helped a few couples examine some issues. It is amazing how you can see certain traits more clearly (cake-eating for example) from the outside looking in.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Dude you spend all your time scanning this board, doing research on articles, authors and posters so you can attack them if they says R is not a healthy choice. It's really the only time you post on here. No other subject is touched by you. Basically your whole life has been dedicated and based around this incident in your life that happened 2 decades ago. Ever thought if you moved on and not R you might not even be on this board fighting with me? It may just be a small painful event in your past not an all encompassing life's mission that it turned into for you. How much time has this subject been spent in your life. What would that time have been spent on if it didn't happen. You really don't see that you have had an entire lifetime of consequences, it changed the direction of your entire life. It seems to have become your life's purpose. Now maybe you think that it turned out for good and maybe it's true, but maybe also you would have cured cancer. Self-awareness doesn't seem to be one of your strongest qualities quality.
> 
> Just saying you are at least as screwed up as I am.


Dude ~~~ You can try to equate your posts to mine but I'm all about hope whereas you're more the debbie downer. I'm here arguing and offering hope while backing it up by example. It's not tedious or worthless whereas posting hopelessness, overriding fears of intimacy and lies {that no one recovers} IS a much more pathetic "life mission". 

edit to add: just occurred to me too,you just made your 3,249th post in just less than a year {not to mention the thousands on Reddit too} and I'm at 266 targeted posts so I don't think I've dedicated nearly as much of "my whole life" to this subject as you have.

Plus, my wife and I are doing this TOGETHER {does yours even know you are here and Reddit talking about your old fiance so much?}. My wife and I talk about many or most of these posts and while I enjoy this debate, I don't do it for the argument alone or thinking I'm going to change your mind. I do it for the betrayed husband that JUST LOGGED IN trying to save his family, his marriage and, sometimes, his life as well. I also do it because it was pointed out to me by my friends and online forum predecessors that recovered spouses just don't stick around offering their experience as long as divorced guys that got completely and irreparably screwed over by the experience ~~ therefore, the overall tendency of forums naturally becomes overly negative. 

I'm good at it too {I get help too, most of the research was cataloged by others before me, in whole or in part}. Like you on the subject of infidelity, I don't know anything about cancer so curing cancer wasn't ever going to be my mission. We serve where God has placed us and we share our testimony to help others not feel so alone and/or hopeless. The glory is His.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> As far as "long term effects of an affair"....Sokillme's are actually quite commonplace for the children of divorce after an affair and SoKillMe appears to be one of the luckier ones that figured it out before destroying himself with booze, drugs, women and other self-destructive behaviors. Our prisons are FULL UP of children from broken homes {many a result of infidelity}.


I wasn't lucky I had a Mother who prayed to God and wasn't a hypocrite. Meaning she was a good moral person and demonstrated that ever day. I also had some very good examples of marriages in my mothers inner circle too. These were church going people who were also not hypocrites. The kind of people who invited the homeless guy who road his bike around town to eat a Thanksgiving dinner (after making him shower of course). 

My father was not religious but for all his cheating ways still took an interest in my life and saw me at least twice a week. My relationship probably improved with him because he had to make time for me he couldn't sit in his office and work. I probably had the best possible set up for divorce, in fact I think my step-father did far more damage to my life then my Dad did. 

My Dad has been a positive in my life except for the one giant black mark. There would never been an abusive step-father without that affair. If my parents has just divorced I doubt my Mom would have married that guy. She would have probably eventually taken something good out of the relationship. If my Dad had handled the situation with honor my Mother could have had some confidence and would not have been so vulnerable. Like maybe it didn't work out but it wasn't because there was something wrong with her, it was just that they grew apart. They really did change completely and I don't think they would have lasted. My mom went to God my Dad went away from him. By the way my Mother was a great catch for my father, and she was devoted to him. The sun rose and set on him as far as she was concerned. She would have never divorced him. Every women my Dad was with was beautiful. Like model pretty and fit the times too as far as their look. My dad was also very handsome in his day and very successful career wise. 

The women he cheated on my mom with cheated on him in about a 3 month span as far as I know. But he didn't want to be married at that point anyway. At least I think by that time he knew he didn't have it in him. He only married again when he was too old to cheat. If there was a cure for aging I bet he would cheat on his current wife now though. Actually I wouldn't be shocked if he did even now. It's in his nature. I love the man, but I would never want to be married to him. 

My Mother has never remarried after my step father. She admits now that her picker is broken. That's what happens to little girls whose fathers die when they are very young. 

The reason I have a good marriage as far as I can tell are basically do to my Mothers years of prayer. And her constant talking to me about being a good man and husband. Basically she raised me to be what she thought my father was. Half of the crap I post on her about honor and doing the right thing because it's the right thing is just her voice coming out of my mouth. Also even though I find the way my Dad treated women awful he did teach me how to be assertive. Which is a skill a lot of young men don't pick up without a father figure. He also taught me how to think logically and creatively. He is not a bad man he is a flawed man. It's really a tragedy to me actually but such is life. I remember how my mother loved him, she really had it bad. I have never seen here like that with anyone else. Even that wasn't enough. Why he is the way he is now that is the real question. 

The IC helped me deal with the fallout of all that and also made me see how some of the qualities I was attracted to were not good ones and were probably a result of me coming from a broken home. I get being the KISA thing because I was doing that. Picking damaged women and then passive aggressively thinking if I fix them they will love me even more. This is why I get how some of these BH's think, because I think like that. Once I got that I started to fight against my instinct. 

Anyway I am not lucky God rescued me I have no doubt one of the things you wrote would have come true. Which it would be who knows.

So there you go Quality some more info to psychoanalyze me with.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By* Quality*
> My fight for my wife and family 2 decades ago was hard but I've seen and heard much worse. We've completely overcome it and actually use the entire experience to help other couples deal and have hope with their current marital struggles.



*Congratulations Quality!!!
Your long term experience and success is impressive and encouraging!!!*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Dude ~~~ You can try to equate your posts to mine but I'm all about hope whereas you're more the debbie downer. I'm here arguing and offering hope while backing it up by example. It's not tedious or worthless whereas posting hopelessness, overriding fears of intimacy and lies {that no one recovers} IS a much more pathetic "life mission".
> 
> edit to add: just occurred to me too,you just made your 3,249th post in just less than a year {not to mention the thousands on Reddit too} and I'm at 266 targeted posts so I don't think I've dedicated nearly as much of "my whole life" to this subject as you have.
> 
> ...


First of all not all my post on here are about infidelity, and half of those posts are snarky comments, not the treaties I am posting on this thread. You only post to defend R, there is no other reason. 

Second I get that you think you are helping people and I am sure you are sometimes, but you have basically had to make your whole life about R to be able to do it successfully. Now assuming that link that you posted is you then you seem to be the kind of type A person who studies and writes books about the subject. That's great but that is what it took for you to get past the crap sandwich which you were dealt. 

Most of the people posting on these boards don't want to make it their whole life's mission. They just want to have a partner the can trust and not have to live in fear when their partner is not right next to them. They want to have the marriage they thought they had before they got stabbed in the back. Since 95% of them ether don't want or have it in them to even be as introspective or as dedicated as you, or have partners like your wife who seems to be the very best like .01% of WS, it just seems to me what you push for is condemning them a very sad life. Just look at the people on the R board on SI do they look happy to you? I think it's very unfair. You are basically saying look at me, look at how successful I have been, you can do this to. It's like a professional baseball player telling the company softball guy if you just turn your hips sooner you can hit a the ball as far as me. Your situation is very rare for most as far as I can see are not going to work out this way. Most are going to be posting 10 years later still in pain, you want to know how I can tell? I see the posts. 

Anyway around in circles we go. You think there is some way we could make money off of these debates we have?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Quality said:


> How gross.
> 
> Double gross to celebrate infidelity on a sub-forum full of people "coping with infidelity" in their lives.


I wish you hadn't quoted the poster. Now everyone has to see it, KWIM?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1

I haven't seen you posting lately, so it's good to see you back my friend. As for your question, many negatives, but the positives are also huge. My wife and I communicate much better, less of the great divide, otherwise known as becoming distant. The intimacy has changed, it's gotten good again, but there was a period that it was very awkward and not so fulfilling. For me that was devastating as I value intimacy very highly. Being more vulnerable and opening of your heart do bring it back to a good level now. 

How I see my wife as a person changed, as I thought she believed in all that I did. I still value her as a person, I love and I'm in love with her, but knowing she is capable brought the rose colored glasses to shatter. Her pedestal was also kicked out from under her, and I will not make that mistake again. 

My flaws are still there too, but I've worked hard on myself to minimize my flaws as much as possible. I'm not perfect, but a positive is that the work I've done has made me a far better overall person. Emotionally I'm much stronger, physically I've lost weight, so overall I'd say I've improved myself. What I hate is the wake up call that brought upon all these changes in myself. 

I'm not completely healed even as of today, but I'm better then I was a month ago. I love my wife more today then a month ago, and my boys are being raised in a safe and stable home. The boys see the work we do to have the marriage that we do. I'm hopeful that they also put the same effort in to their own relationships when they come of age. I tell them that nothing comes easy in life, we work for all that we have, and to care and protect what we have. 

The long term effects are trust and intimacy for me. They are improving, and I hope it only gets better from here, but reality is that what brought us to here we both could have done without. My wife understands she is lucky to be here in a marriage, and each day she puts in effort that I find to be amazing. But you can't ever forget what your spouse did to you.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> I big negative IMHO is knowing what your spouse is capable of. Even if you R and things are going well years later, you will always know the he/she could do it again if they wanted to. And this time they would be more skillful at covering their tracks. So the long term effect is trust is gone for all.


I think knowing they did and could always do this again has to cast a long shadow over the rest of the marriage. I don't see how 100% trust is ever truly restored, perhaps 100% trust should never have been given in the first place? Also down the line when and if the BS is ever tempted are they more likely to give in since they can't think of their spouse at home and say he/she would never do this to me? Like I said earlier the reverberations from cheating last decades if not forver and there is no avoiding that. Perhaps _some_ marriages improve after this but I don't see that as being the norm - getting back to good enough seems ot be the norm.



sokillme said:


> I think it is much worse when the BS twists themselves in knots to try to avoid those uncomfortable facts. Your WS probably did "love" their AP maybe not in the holy pure sense but in the lustful, I need you, early stages of a relationship sense. Though with long term affairs they had to mean something to them. I mean long term stuff is even worse it's almost like two marriages.
> 
> They probably enjoyed every moment of it. Lots of he initial sadness is also probably partly them getting over their "love" for their AP. This is who these people are, now maybe they can change. But at least look at it with your eyes open. Also you should be aware that what you mean when you say love and what they mean probably are not the same things. Also most WS, at least the kind that can live basically two lives have some serious issues that take a lot of work and a long time to fix. If you choose to R there is really no justice for you. It's just something you learn to live with.


LTAs are the absolute worst because the WS repeatedly lies and lives a double life for so long, how can things ever be normal again? For me the longer the affair the less there is to salvage - how do you ever respect a Ws who can betray you for YEARS and YEARS and still come home and kiss you on the lips and go about life like nothing is going on. Those folks have some serious issues to work out. 

As to the enjoyment question -of course they enjoyed it. It was fun getting strange no matter how they feel now they enjoyed it and were intoxicated by it. It's the exposure and the consequences that are not so much fun. We all love running up the credit card but paying the bill sucks doesn't it? lol I truly do not believe a WS will ever get it unless they are betrayed at some point. The tears and the bullsh!t self-flagellation don't impress me in the least. In the end if they get to keep their marriage then they got away with it on some level.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@drifting on - glad you are doing well and I hope your life continues to improve.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think knowing they did and could always do this again has to cast a long shadow over the rest of the marriage. I don't see how 100% trust is ever truly restored, perhaps 100% trust should never have been given in the first place? Also down the line when and if the BS is ever tempted are they more likely to give in since they can't think of their spouse at home and say he/she would never do this to me? Like I said earlier the reverberations from cheating last decades if not forver and there is no avoiding that. Perhaps _some_ marriages improve after this but I don't see that as being the norm - getting back to good enough seems ot be the norm.


What about knowing who you are married to. Some of the stories I hear on these boards the terrible cruelty in which people treat the ones who have loved them, how can you want to spend your life with that person still? There cruelty is almost psychopathic. Not everyone even your run of the mill cheaters do some of the stuff these people do. Even they would be disgusted by it. Most at least try to separate it and hide it. Spending a week with your affair partner and doing it right in your spouses face. Asking them how you look before going out on a date. Bringing the person around your kids. Comparing body parts of your spouse to the affair partner to build up the affair partner. People who do that lack basic decency. The have no concept of loyalty. Life is hard how can you depend on a person who has showed such a lack of loyalty? It's hard to go to war when you have to watch your back from friendly fire too.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Congratulations Quality!!!
> Your long term experience and success is impressive and encouraging!!!*


Others Mileage May Vary ... Not everyone reads posts through the same filter, and Quality's posts just set off my BS detector as being more about trying to convince himself he did the right thing. To my eyes and based on my life experiences, @sokillme has his number, and it generates the same "eye roll of disbelief".


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> IMO She way undersold the negative consequences of the affair...as for the WSs "resentment" - hard for me to feel sorry for them since they blew the whole thing up...can anyone add more either positive or negative to her list?


There is an immense amount that was not on the negative side of the list. Detrimental effects to health and spousal violence are the most obvious.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> What about knowing who you are married to. Some of the stories I hear on these boards the terrible cruelty in which people treat the ones who have loved them, how can you want to spend your life with that person still? There cruelty is almost psychopathic. Not everyone even your run of the mill cheaters do some of the stuff these people do. Even they would be disgusted by it. Most at least try to separate it and hide it. Spending a week with your affair partner and doing it right in your spouses face. Asking them how you look before going out on a date. Bringing the person around your kids. Comparing body parts of your spouse to the affair partner to build up the affair partner. People who do that lack basic decency. The have no concept of loyalty. Life is hard how can you depend on a person who has showed such a lack of loyalty? It's hard to go to war when you have to watch your back from friendly fire too.


What about gas lighting or blame shifting to make your spouse think they have osme responsibility for you going out to get some strange? When I hear a WS talk about how sh!tty their life is or was so they just had to go out and screw someone else - that really makes my blood boil. If a wayward has to tell me that I know they are not truly remorseful. Ever read a WS who became a madhatter - their perspective shift is astounding - a whole new world is opened up to them and they do not like it. I once read a post by a MH elsehwere who complained how unfair it was to be a BS and WS at the same time. SMH.



Relationship Teacher said:


> There is an immense amount that was not on the negative side of the list. Detrimental effects to health and spousal violence are the most obvious.


Especially mental health - the hoops BSs have to go through to cope is awful. The WS does not have to run that obstacle course no matter how "bad" they feel. This was dumped in the BS's lap and then they have to go deal with it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Especially mental health - the hoops BSs have to go through to cope is awful. The WS does not have to run that obstacle course no matter how "bad" they feel. This was dumped in the BS's lap and then they have to go deal with it.




Many of them suffer from this though, serious mental health issues. Though that doesn't make it any easier.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Many of them suffer from this though, serious mental health issues. Though that doesn't make it any easier.


It takes therapy or the ability to swallow the sh!t sandwich your Ws made for you and not gag.....like I said the Ws do not get it unless they have been betrayed..they get to move on with less scars since they did the cheating...the amount of selfishness it takes to blow up your spouses world is mind boggling isnt it?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> It takes therapy or the ability to swallow the sh!t sandwich your Ws made for you and not gag.....like I said the Ws do not get it unless they have been betrayed..they get to move on with less scars since they did the cheating...the amount of selfishness it takes to blow up your spouses world is mind boggling isnt it?


Not sure if I was clear enough, I meant that many WS suffer from some form of mental illness. So you have a relationship now with one person who was born with it, and the other was basally given at least temporary symptoms of mental illness from the actions of the WS. Makes it very hard.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> *and the other was basally given at least temporary symptoms of mental illness from the actions of the WS. Makes it very hard*.


This goes straight to the heart of the unfairness of beng the Bs - the Bs is left wiht wreckage he or she did not create but has to clean up - many WSs even "remorseful" ones would not do so well if they were on the receiving end..like I said if you read MH threads you see it - any WS who complains about how unfair it is to be a MH makes me laigh...they say nobody deserves to be cheated on - i'd add except cheaters >


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I can only speak for myself. I no longer trust anyone or anything. 

And I lost my smile.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I can only speak for myself. I no longer trust anyone or anything.
> 
> And I lost my smile.


That is not shocking at all..which is why I think a WS needs to have their world rocked by betryal in order to fully fvcking get it because they dont....


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Ever read a WS who became a madhatter - their perspective shift is astounding - a whole new world is opened up to them and they do not like it. I once read a post by a MH elsehwere who complained how unfair it was to be a BS and WS at the same time. SMH.


Chumpcheater Lady's website is entirely built upon this premise.



> The WS does not have to run that obstacle course no matter how "bad" they feel. This was dumped in the BS's lap and then they have to go deal with it.


After a period of difficulty, shock and fear there comes a time for repentance and forgiveness. Recovery doesn't happen overnight but my wife's sins with regards to her horrible adultery several decades ago are now as far as the East from the West to me. She still struggles with it from time to time but I don't. Sure it was "dumped in my lap" at that time but no one promised me a perfect life and I'm certainly not entitled to it. You guys speak as though you are completely sinless and that this transgression, grave as it is, MUST define both the WS and BS for the rest of their lives. My wife's adultery WAS horrible and I'm not ever going to call it a mistake. But I've been a horrible sinner too so I've got enough atoning and repenting to do for myself to be all that overburdened forever concerned about and|or managing my wife's repentance. Consequences aren't for me to decide. 


I love my wife. I trust my wife and I'm blessed to have her in my life. Life isn't this hard guys. 



an afterthought: affair sex is vulgar. All extra-marital sex is sinful and vulgar {that includes any premarital sex any of us had}. Remembering it, fondly or not, is a consequence of that sin. It's one of the reasons God doesn't wanting any of us having extra-marital sex. He doesn't direct us to keep ourselves pure and maintain our virginity until marriage because He doesn't want us to have fun. Instead, He knows it's destructive to our marital relationships for any of us to have had sex with others not because such long ago sex would hurt your spouse {you likely didn't even know your spouse yet} but rather the memories of such sex remain in your head, fondly or not, as well as all the other potential and destructive consequences of extra-marital sex. I don't know about you guys but marital sex is just so much better than the carefree, risky, bumbling, non-intimate -
sex I had with too many random women in the late 70's early 80's and I'm not saying that to be all "well I was cool and had tons of sex back then", no, I share this with a healthy level of shame and remorse. My wife's choices were 100% hers, but I can concurrently see it as a natural consequence of my|our sinful choices and behaviors for a long time prior to that. When both spouses agree that God didn't mean what He said ~ there's always going to be consequences to follow. Subsequent adultery {where the WS then becomes the BS} isn't the only way one can be an overly offended madhatter towards God.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> I can only speak for myself. I no longer trust anyone or anything.
> 
> And I lost my smile.


Sounds like an 80's pop lyric.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I trust my wife and I'm blessed to have her in my life. Life isn't this hard guys.


I hope this isn't the sentence you start your adultery in marriage workshops with. >

What's the deal with your wives affair anyway? Who was it, how did you find out? Did you R right away?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is not shocking at all..which is why I think a WS needs to have their world rocked by betryal in order to fully fvcking get it because they dont....



As we live this Holy week, the above point is a pretty good summary of, perhaps, the whole point we still need and have the Old Testament {many wanted to eliminate it after Christ}. God's wrath exhibited therein for even the smallest of sins, certainly rocked the world and they still didn't "get it". I, for one, certainly appreciate living in this time of grace much better and would rather live my life as Jesus did, offering forgiveness to my wife and loving her as Christ loved the church while repenting and concerning myself mostly with my own sins.

Revenge affairs are just more sin and more vulgarity. It's really not necessary for complete remorse and repentance. In fact, it's more likely to result in them rationalizing and justifying their own initial adultery {see, the bastard deserved it} and becomes a perpetual barrier to repentance for both spouses. Then both spouses end up remaining hateful and wayward for years to come. 

It MAY sound like poetic justice ~ but revenge isn't justice. In this case, both parties would end up becoming unrepentant adulterers but the injustice is that that the second betrayed spouse actually deserved it and the second wayward spouse did it much more to be intentionally hurtful {AT their wayward spouse}. Further, the resulting pain {though they often gnash their teeth} isn't comparable to being blindsided as the initial betrayed spouse. It's just empty revenge.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Especially mental health - the hoops BSs have to go through to cope is awful. The WS does not have to run that obstacle course no matter how "bad" they feel. This was dumped in the BS's lap and then they have to go deal with it.


QFT


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I can only speak for myself. I no longer trust anyone or anything.
> 
> And I lost my smile.


:frown2: To some degree the A has had a similar affect on me. Even so, I'm still trying to get some of my old self back.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> :frown2: To some degree the A has had a similar affect on me. Even so, I'm still trying to get some of my old self back.


That is the thing when someone who is supposed ot have oyur back above all else cheats its hard to trust anyone..if you cant trust your spouse well how do you trust friends and associates? the reverberations from adultery last for a long time..does your wife have trust issues? what are her scars if any?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I wasn't lucky I had a Mother who prayed to God and wasn't a hypocrite. Meaning she was a good moral person and demonstrated that ever day. I also had some very good examples of marriages in my mothers inner circle too. These were church going people who were also not hypocrites. The kind of people who invited the homeless guy who road his bike around town to eat a Thanksgiving dinner (after making him shower of course).
> 
> My father was not religious but for all his cheating ways still took an interest in my life and saw me at least twice a week. My relationship probably improved with him because he had to make time for me he couldn't sit in his office and work. I probably had the best possible set up for divorce, in fact I think my step-father did far more damage to my life then my Dad did.
> 
> ...


By your post it sounds like you have done a lot of work. Your wife has to be blessed that you deal on such an honest and realistic, and not instinctual (from past hurts and patterns) level.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is the thing when someone who is supposed ot have oyur back above all else cheats its hard to trust anyone..if you cant trust your spouse well how do you trust friends and associates? the reverberations from adultery last for a long time..does your wife have trust issues? what are her scars if any?


Well, I am the wife. My husband does have trust issues, because his parents were divorced when he was 10. After we were getting serious, he told me he had told himself that he would never trust anyone after his parents' divorce, but that he could trust me, and he wanted to marry me. I don't believe he really understood trust and "oneness" because it was never modeled to him. Our marriage suffered before the A because of that, me wanting oneness, and him pulling away. He also had fear of conflict, from the divorce, then from having a domineering mother, and stepfather. He is passive aggressive, less so now that I know what it is, and call him on it more often.

He never knew that his mother cheated on his father with his stepfather, and that is probably what led to her asking for a divorce. She kept the A very secret so she could get custody of the children. She only let me know about it in a way to badmouth my husband's dad because his parents paid a PI to follow her around during the divorce while he was trying to get custody, (she thought he was such a loser that his parents had to pay for the PI) so she and OM, my husband's step father had to be very careful to never be seen. She thought that she was making my husband's father look bad with her story, but it only exposed that she was a cheater.

I can't imagine being raised by a cheating gold digger, who is so good at keeping secrets and keeping up appearances.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Well, I am the wife. My husband does have trust issues, because his parents were divorced when he was 10. After we were getting serious, he told me he had told himself that he would never trust anyone after his parents' divorce, but that he could trust me, and he wanted to marry me. I don't believe he really understood trust and "oneness" because it was never modeled to him. Our marriage suffered before the A because of that, me wanting oneness, and him pulling away. He also had fear of conflict, from the divorce, then from having a domineering mother, and stepfather. He is passive aggressive, less so now that I know what it is, and call him on it more often.
> 
> He never knew that his mother cheated on his father with his stepfather, and that is probably what led to her asking for a divorce. She kept the A very secret so she could get custody of the children. She only let me know about it in a way to badmouth my husband's dad because his parents paid a PI to follow her around during the divorce while he was trying to get custody, (she thought he was such a loser that his parents had to pay for the PI) so she and OM, my husband's step father had to be very careful to never be seen. She thought that she was making my husband's father look bad with her story, but it only exposed that she was a cheater.
> 
> I can't imagine being raised by a cheating gold digger, who is so good at keeping secrets and keeping up appearances.


Wow was she ever confronted with this stuff? That's a post that should be written here. Who had the affair that you talk about? Whats the story on that?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I can only speak for myself. I no longer trust anyone or anything.
> 
> And I lost my smile.


This exactly, even my closest long term friend I view differently now and don't trust like I used to. Smiling is more of a rarity than a daily occurrence. The activities that I used to love doing don't bring me the same level of happiness they used to. These are the lasting gifts betrayal has brought me.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Wow was she ever confronted with this stuff? That's a post that should be written here. Who had the affair that you talk about? Whats the story on that?


No, she has not ever been confronted. She is in her 80's o her 4th husband (rich too.) Husband's step dad died, and she had a new husband within 2 years. My husband doesn't think it is his place to confront her, and with her personality, she would deny what she told me 20 years ago anyway. She lives in another state, and we only see her every few years. Her own life (travelling, remodeling her husband's house, etc.) are more important than visiting us and her grand children. Actually it's good she lives far away. She is shallow, and always trying to prove to everyone what a great person she is with all her one-upmanship stories, that she tires me very quickly.

My husband had the affair in 2009. I wrote about it copiously when I joined another forum, and then when I joined TAM. It was a mess, and it hurt me and our children in many ways. Lots of fallout for years because of people who tried to use the information (the A) to hurt us, or take advantage of us in various ways. It caused so much hurt, I don't know if we will ever fully heal or be the family we once were.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Sounds like an 80's pop lyric.


You ARE a pop lyric.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> You ARE a pop lyric.


I like to think of my self as more a psychedelic lyric.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *bandit.45 *
> I can only speak for myself. I no longer trust anyone or anything.
> 
> And I lost my smile.
> ...



I have no doubt that betrayal changes the BS (probably the WS also) 
Do I trust people 100%? No, and I never should have. However, as a BS, I do trust some people up to 90%. As for smiling, I smile a lot and not because I was betrayed. *I smile because I have recovered a lot and do not let my WS control my smiles. My wife’s betrayal is on her and she is the one that has to pay the consequences of her actions, not me.*

Honcho, I so not know what activities you no longer have the same happiness with. I hope that you find happiness in other activities. I have happiness with family gatherings with my extended family, children and grandchildren. My wife is included in that but her involvement or non-involvement does not take away my happiness. I go out to eat with my family members and we talk about a lot of things that are in our lives and I get a lot out of that.

Honcho, I hope you do not allow your betrayer to have a significant effect on your life. I always advocate going in self-sufficiency as much as possible and to allow other people to help fulfill your social life.* My wife is an important person in my life but she is not the majority source of joy in my life.*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> she is the one that has to pay the consequences of her actions, not me.


I'm know this sounds good but I am having a hard time believing this is true. You had to at least have suffered some consequence, maybe not anymore but at one point. If not then I would have a hard time believing you loved her.

Be honest the BS and kids always pay the consequences more then the WS. It sucks but it's true.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted *by Mr Blun*t
> she is the one that has to pay the consequences of her actions, not me.
> 
> *By Sokillme*
> ...


In the beginning you are right, the BS and the children do pay a lot of consequences. However, with some WSs they also suffer, some not so much.

Of course I suffered some consequences. However, I have recovered enough in the last 20 years to be able to smile and can have happiness with my activities. I have not let my wife’s betrayal take away my smiles and happiness. Sokillme, you seem to be concerned with justice and punishment more than healing. Justice and punishment has its place but it does not dominate my dealing with infidelity.

*I am more interested in my healing than still concentrating on justice and punishment.*


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> I have no doubt that betrayal changes the BS (probably the WS also)
> Do I trust people 100%? No, and I never should have. However, as a BS, I do trust some people up to 90%. As for smiling, I smile a lot and not because I was betrayed. *I smile because I have recovered a lot and do not let my WS control my smiles. My wife’s betrayal is on her and she is the one that has to pay the consequences of her actions, not me.*
> 
> Honcho, I so not know what activities you no longer have the same happiness with. I hope that you find happiness in other activities. I have happiness with family gatherings with my extended family, children and grandchildren. My wife is included in that but her involvement or non-involvement does not take away my happiness. I go out to eat with my family members and we talk about a lot of things that are in our lives and I get a lot out of that.
> ...


I always was and am self sufficient and my crazy ex wasn't the major source of joy in my life but she definitely enriched my life if that makes sense. The words don't come to me to explain but I don't feel the same level of happiness or satisfaction as I once did. By nature I'm not a very trusting person to begin with and it coming from someone that close makes it just that much harder to ever trust in the future.

Not sure how it can't have a significant impact on a person's life but my view is tainted given how the freakshow divorce went.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Well, I am the wife. My husband does have trust issues, because his parents were divorced when he was 10. After we were getting serious, he told me he had told himself that he would never trust anyone after his parents' divorce, but that he could trust me, and he wanted to marry me. I don't believe he really understood trust and "oneness" because it was never modeled to him. Our marriage suffered before the A because of that, me wanting oneness, and him pulling away. He also had fear of conflict, from the divorce, then from having a domineering mother, and stepfather. He is passive aggressive, less so now that I know what it is, and call him on it more often.
> 
> He never knew that his mother cheated on his father with his stepfather, and that is probably what led to her asking for a divorce. She kept the A very secret so she could get custody of the children. She only let me know about it in a way to badmouth my husband's dad because his parents paid a PI to follow her around during the divorce while he was trying to get custody, (she thought he was such a loser that his parents had to pay for the PI) so she and OM, my husband's step father had to be very careful to never be seen. She thought that she was making my husband's father look bad with her story, but it only exposed that she was a cheater.
> 
> I can't imagine being raised by a cheating gold digger, who is so good at keeping secrets and keeping up appearances.


Wow...it sounds like he had serious parental issues. I've written many times before that I know over a dozen children of cheating parents and about half went on to cheat themselves. Now I know my sample is not scientific but what was sad is it didnt matter how brutal the WS's infidelity was to the BS they still grew up to cheat anyway. I do think it has an impact on the kids no matter ow the parents handle it.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow...it sounds like he had serious parental issues. I've written many times before that I know over a dozen children of cheating parents and about half went on to cheat themselves. Now I know my sample is not scientific but what was sad is it didnt matter how brutal the WS's infidelity was to the BS they still grew up to cheat anyway. I do think it has an impact on the kids no matter ow the parents handle it.


I hope your observation is not true, because I don't want my children to grow up to be cheaters.:frown2:


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> :frown2: To some degree the A has had a similar affect on me. Even so, I'm still trying to get some of my old self back.





honcho said:


> This exactly, even my closest long term friend I view differently now and don't trust like I used to. Smiling is more of a rarity than a daily occurrence. The activities that I used to love doing don't bring me the same level of happiness they used to. These are the lasting gifts betrayal has brought me.





honcho said:


> I always was and am self sufficient and my crazy ex wasn't the major source of joy in my life but she definitely enriched my life if that makes sense. The words don't come to me to explain but I don't feel the same level of happiness or satisfaction as I once did. By nature I'm not a very trusting person to begin with and it coming from someone that close makes it just that much harder to ever trust in the future.
> 
> Not sure how it can't have a significant impact on a person's life but my view is tainted given how the freakshow divorce went.


These three quotes just reinforce what the WS steals from the Bs whether they R or D. The Ws does not experience the same loss how could they since they are the ones that did the stealing. For all the wayward tears and self-flagellation it still comes down to the same ting - all of it is self-inflicted whereas what happen to the Bs is inflicted by another. Even those who are "remorseful" still don't fully get it - what they want is to get it over with. I'm talking about the consequences. When I read about BSs trying different kinds of therapy, different techniques - it is like the Ws gave them another full time job just to get through their infidelity. 

@bandit.45 is right if you read wayward posts when they are unguarded it is eye opening. You see how selfish they truly are - even the ones in R. You see them proudly claiming the title of fWS as if its a new title to earn and be proud of. It is eye opening to say the least.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I hope your observation is not true, because I don't want my children to grow up to be cheaters.:frown2:


It wasn't all of them and FWIW it was *both *sons and daughters who went on to be unfaithful. Like I said it wasnt a scientific example but infidelity does have aftershocks that last for decades. No matter how "sorry" the WS is the aftershocks can't be avoided IMO. The BS and kids bear the bulk of the burden not the cheater - which is what makes is so unfair.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Be honest the BS and kids always pay the consequences more then the WS. It sucks but it's true.


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## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

I will never, ever believe that it is possible for a marriage to be "better" because of an affair. The only exceptions I make are: if the BH actually enjoys the thought of his wife having sex with another man or that he truly doesn't care about the sexual part of her cheating. But, these rare exceptions aside, the very suggestion that a marriage can be better is ridicules.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

theDrifter said:


> I will never, ever believe that it is possible for a marriage to be "better" because of an affair. The only exceptions I make are: if the BH actually enjoys the thought of his wife having sex with another man or that he truly doesn't care about the sexual part of her cheating. But, these rare exceptions aside, the very suggestion that a marriage can be better is ridicules.


I have to agree with this. In my own life Most of the couples stayed together or got back together after infidelity and some of their marriages seemed to get back to good enough but nowhere close to better. But perhaps good enough is alright for many people who find fulfillment elsewhere in life. It has to be tough though waking up everyday with someone who can do that to you. I dont think in most cases respect or trust goes back to 100% but how could it?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I also wonder how "successful" Rs will do 10 years out or more. Will the BS be tempted after the kids are grown to look for greener pastures or will they just give in and stay? I know of one case where the couple lingered in misery for almost a decade and eventually called it quits. Think about it - your spouse cheated - you hit midlife or meet someone else - there really is no "oh my poor spouse would never do this to me so I just can't" going through your head at that moment, because they did do it to you and in some cases did it to you for YEARS. I just wonder how often that does happen in marriages where the couple has been in R for awhile and the Bs finally gets sick of living with it everyday.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

I chose not to R after infidelity and, my marriage had other negative factors during its course, that said:

1. My view of human-beings has forever changed.

I now know that there are people in this world who can do great harm to others and think nothing of it; some even derive amusement from it. I am not talking about criminals, serial-killers or despots; I am taking about people who appear to be otherwise nice upstanding citizens and productive members of society. I *hate *that I learned this the hard way.

2. I feel gullible and stupid.

I am a highly intelligent woman however I feel fundamentally stupid because my exH was able to fool me for so many years and, I had no idea who he truly was. I am also what is termed a “highly empathetic” person. I used to think that was a good quality as long as you maintained strong personal boundaries. Now I think it is a curse because it makes me a target for disordered people (see #1).

Post-marriage/infidelity I have built a life that is productive, enjoyable and peaceful however I live with *permanent *internal walls up.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

[quote*]By Honcho*
I always was and am self-sufficient and my crazy ex wasn't the major source of joy in my life but she definitely enriched my life if that makes sense. The words don't come to me to explain but *I don't feel the same level of happiness or satisfaction as I once did*. By nature I'm not a very trusting person to begin with and it coming from someone that close makes it just that much harder to ever trust in the future.

Not sure how it can't have a *significant impact on a person's life* but my view is tainted given how the freak show divorce went.[/quote]

Honcho,
In the beginning I did not feel the same satisfaction and happiness post-affair in my marriage *but through the years I have upped my game in other areas*. The betrayal had a significant impact on my life for many years. However, after 20 years it does not have a significant impact anymore. I did not say it had no impact; it just does not have a significant impact. 

When I say that I have become more self-sufficient I mean that after many years that I have got to the point that I do not need my wife to be a big factor in my self-esteem. *I have been successful in my career, financially, and have a closer relationship to all my family.* All my family respect me and enjoy being with me. *I have become stronger in my faith and I am grateful for God’s blessing.*

Honcho, your freak show divorce does not have to affect your happiness and satisfaction to the degree that you have expressed. The affect that your ex-wife and divorce has had on you can be much improved by you gaining in other areas of your life. *Your ex-wife and divorce can become a lot less significant in your life.*


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## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I also wonder how "successful" Rs will do 10 years out or more. Will the BS be tempted after the kids are grown to look for greener pastures or will they just give in and stay? I know of one case where the couple lingered in misery for almost a decade and eventually called it quits. Think about it - your spouse cheated - you hit midlife or meet someone else - there really is no "oh my poor spouse would never do this to me so I just can't" going through your head at that moment, because they did do it to you and in some cases did it to you for YEARS. I just wonder how often that does happen in marriages where the couple has been in R for awhile and the Bs finally gets sick of living with it everyday.


I would love to find studies that track couples who endure infidelity to find out a couple things. First, if they are still together are they satisfied with their marriage today. Second, does BS believe they have healed. Third, of the couples that have divorced, how long did they remain married after the cheating and was that cheating the primary reason for divorce. 

As long as the WS and BS answered these questions separately and in strict confidence I think the results would be fascinating. Since "successfully reconciled" means something different to each of us, I would guess that over 90% of marriages would actually truly reconcile.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

theDrifter said:


> I would love to find studies that track couples who endure infidelity to find out a couple things. First, if they are still together are they satisfied with their marriage today. Second, does BS believe they have healed. Third, of the couples that have divorced, how long did they remain married after the cheating and was that cheating the primary reason for divorce.
> 
> As long as the WS and BS answered these questions separately and in strict confidence I think the results would be fascinating. Since "successfully reconciled" means something different to each of us, I would guess that over 90% of marriages would actually truly reconcile.


I would love to see a study like that as well. I would guess the many Ws might be happier since they got away with it and on some level the Bs at their sh!tsandwich and stayed. You think over 90% are truly reconciled? Seems a bit high to me.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> I chose not to R after infidelity and, my marriage had other negative factors during its course, that said:
> 
> 1. My view of human-beings has forever changed.
> 
> ...


Infidelity is a wake up call about human nature. If person who vowed to love and be faithful to you can do this to you, what would a stranger do to you? I think infidelity fundamentally breaks something that can never be fully repaired. Which is why I'm skeptical about couples who "renew vows" after infidelity - if the first set of vows wasn't good enough why the hell would the second be any better? I know that is up to the individual couple but to me it seems like calling for a do over like children often do in a game. How can you look at your Ws during the recitation of the second set of vows and think - ok this time it will stick. :scratchhead:


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Honcho, your freak show divorce does not have to affect your happiness and satisfaction to the degree that you have expressed. The affect that your ex-wife and divorce has had on you can be much improved by you gaining in other areas of your life. *Your ex-wife and divorce can become a lot less significant in your life.*
> [/COLOR]


Mr. Bunt makes an important point here - in the wake of dday the BS shouldn't worry about their WS but themselves and their healing. People can and do survive trauma every day and the BS should set out to do *WHATEVER* needs to be done to heal properly - that needs to be the first priority. The WS's wounds are self inflicted and really should be a distant afterthought - forgive me but I really find it hard to feel sorry for their shame, guilt, etc since they are the ones who made the damned mess in the first place. In reality most WS move on just fine without the scars the BS has even if they say they are "remorseful".


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You think over 90% are truly reconciled? Seems a bit high to me.


I gotta agree ... I would opine that the real number would be *WELL* south of 50%. Not divorced does not equal reconciled. When I run self-proclaimed R's through my BH filter, I see a lot more of them trying to convince themselves that they made the right choice. In contrast, you rarely, if ever, see a BH that went straight to D wishing they had given R a chance.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> I gotta agree ... I would opine that the real number would be *WELL* south of 50%. Not divorced does not equal reconciled. When I run self-proclaimed R's through my BH filter, I see a lot more of them trying to convince themselves that they made the right choice. In contrast, you rarely, if ever, see a BH that went straight to D wishing they had given R a chance.


Agreed. In my own life from the people I knew that did R..in many cases it was other things like kids, money, family etc that kept them together not being with their WS. I think in R the WS usually gets the better end of the deal because they get to keep their marriage and family and got to have their diversion. I always say R involves the WS getting away with it on some level.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think infidelity fundamentally breaks something that can never be fully repaired. Which is why I'm skeptical about couples who "renew vows" after infidelity - if the first set of vows wasn't good enough why the hell would the second be any better?


We're on the same page, again. My W floated this out to me early on, and it landed with a loud THUD. There are no "do overs" in life, we play the hand we're dealt. Therefore, I try to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them. Now, for a variety of reasons, I have R'd with my W ... probably better than most, but just because my "head" understands the logic of that decision, doesn't mean it still doesn't cause my "gut" nausea at times, and that nausea prevents me from even entertaining the prospect of standing up and making the same promises that weren't kept the last time they were uttered. Her pedestal was smashed by the knowledge that she did not "forsake all others" and one of the consequences of that is I don't have to willingly accept another gut punch, just to soothe her conscience.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> We're on the same page, again. My W floated this out to me early on, and it landed with a loud THUD. There are no "do overs" in life, we play the hand we're dealt. Therefore, I try to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them. Now, for a variety of reasons, I have R'd with my W ... probably better than most, but just because my "head" understands the logic of that decision, doesn't mean it still doesn't cause my "gut" nausea at times, and that nausea prevents me from even entertaining the prospect of standing up and making the same promises that weren't kept the last time they were uttered. Her pedestal was smashed by the knowledge that she did not "forsake all others" and one of the consequences of that is I don't have to willingly accept another gut punch, just to soothe her conscience.


I do not know your story but it seems to me you have lost respect for you wife and are not getting it back anytime soon. So tell me what do you even get out of this marriage? Do you find yourself thinking about other women/ Tempted by other women? I'm curious and not trying to be snarky.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I do not know your story but it seems to me you have lost respect for you wife and are not getting it back anytime soon. So tell me what do you even get out of this marriage? Do you find yourself thinking about other women/ Tempted by other women? I'm curious and not trying to be snarky.


To fully answer your question would take more time than I have to write and probably you have to read, but the short version is the typical drunken ONS on a girls only vacation. I trusted her too much and overlooked the selfish me, me, me red flags, and it bit me in the ass. I had been D'd before, and reconnected with someone from my hometown that had harbored a "thing" for me since grade school that I was only mildly aware of due to our age difference (5 years), which is nothing as adults, but wasn't even on my radar as a HS senior and she was 12. After what I had been through in prior relationships and now in my early 30's, it felt good to be the one pursued by the young hottie and it blinded me to the more selfish aspects of her personality, and as I said, it bit me.

I still, or maybe should say refound, respect for her, but she had to earn it back over the past nearly 10 years. My issue is more with the loss of the pride I once felt about our relationship that I considered "special", and after a lot of reflection, it is that "specialness" that I treasured so much, and still grieve its loss. 

We have a very fulfilling relationship, and I know it gets thrown out a lot, but she really is my best friend. We travel very well and often together ... we spend hours and hours every week, just relaxing on our deck talking. We have a very satisfying and active sex life. We share a very active hobby together, breeding and training working bird dogs, and are the envy of most of our friends, who know nothing of our troubles, but that "specialness" pedestal that I once placed her on has been smashed beyond any repair. I also harbor some internal conflict over compromising my own values and only being able to confront the OM over the phone, since it was a ONS out of the country.

As for your last question, I work in a female dominated field, and am often cast in the role of their KISA, so I have a lot of opposite sex opportunity thrown my way and while I am human, and ego kibbles feel good every now and then, I've not been tempted to pursue them further, but I'm also 56 now and have matured greatly from some of my earlier days.

Hopefully, that answered a question or two, even though I wrote more than I originally intended.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> To fully answer your question would take more time than I have to write and probably you have to read, but the short version is the typical drunken ONS on a girls only vacation. I trusted her too much and overlooked the selfish me, me, me red flags, and it bit me in the ass. I had been D'd before, and reconnected with someone from my hometown that had harbored a "thing" for me since grade school that I was only mildly aware of due to our age difference (5 years), which is nothing as adults, but wasn't even on my radar as a HS senior and she was 12. After what I had been through in prior relationships and now in my early 30's, it felt good to be the one pursued by the young hottie and it blinded me to the more selfish aspects of her personality, and as I said, it bit me.
> 
> I still, or maybe should say refound, respect for her, but she had to earn it back over the past nearly 10 years. My issue is more with the loss of the pride I once felt about our relationship that I considered "special", and after a lot of reflection, it is that "specialness" that I treasured so much, and still grieve its loss.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the honest answer. It seems to me this is a shadow in your relationship and always will be - which is what brings you to TAM I would think. Does your wife still take girls only vacations? 

As to your last paragraph - perhaps that is the difference between cheaters an dnon cheaters - even in similar circumstances the non cheater will not yield to temptation. Despire some rhteroic to the contrary there are REAL differences in the was BS and WS deal wiht marital discord.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> It seems to me this is a shadow in your relationship and always will be - which is what brings you to TAM I would think. Does your wife still take girls only vacations?


Oh, HELL NO! ... and the two 20+ year long time girlfriends of hers that were on that vacation have been permanently removed from our lives. That was another dumbass red flag I ignored ... both of them had previously been OW. Now, they are EX-friends.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

In response to the original question from the OP...

4.5 years post d-day for me, the long term effect of the affair has been deep resentment on my part. At first, when I was so devastated and desperate for my WH to stay with me, I was willing to "forgive" immediately as I did the "pick me" dance. He stayed. I was relieved. I kept the family together for our young son. I was honestly thinking of my son's well being more than my own, but I was also sooooo emotional myself about my marriage.

Fast forward till today. The affair was never fully dealt with. The rugsweeping allowed my WH to get away with the affair with no consequences. But I have detached, at least in part. There were also other problems with the marriage (verbally abusive outbursts on his part), but the infidelity was the lynchpin. I cannot justify ending it right now for the mere reason that I can't get over the past. For my son's sake, I can't do that. My son has NO clue that there were deep problems. I managed to hide that very well.

But my WH's proven problems with marital boundaries make me think that some form of impropriety will happen again. I am waiting for a smoking gun -- any contact with former AP, any form of violating marital boundaries. Even flirting. I have placed a VAR on average every third day for the past few months. Nothing has turned up, but I am waiting. This sounds completely warped, but in part I am hoping to find that smoking gun so I will have ZERO doubts about ending it and moving on. I don't want to make this kind of decision, citing a reason that is 4.5 years old at this point. I know it doesn't matter, but that's how I feel.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> Oh, HELL NO! ... and the two 20+ year long time girlfriends of hers that were on that vacation have been permanently removed from our lives. That was another dumbass red flag I ignored ... both of them had previously been OW. Now, they are EX-friends.


Do you feel your WW got away with it on some level? Just curious...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

totalfive21 said:


> In response to the original question from the OP...
> 
> 4.5 years post d-day for me, the long term effect of the affair has been deep resentment on my part. At first, when I was so devastated and desperate for my WH to stay with me, I was willing to "forgive" immediately as I did the "pick me" dance. He stayed. I was relieved. I kept the family together for our young son. I was honestly thinking of my son's well being more than my own, but I was also sooooo emotional myself about my marriage.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry you are going through this. It sounds like his affair and post-affair behavior has consumed too much of your life. Do you go to IC? This can not be healthy way to live.


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## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I would love to see a study like that as well. I would guess the many Ws might be happier since they got away with it and on some level the Bs at their sh!tsandwich and stayed. *You think over 90% are truly reconciled?* Seems a bit high to me.


No, I think 10% maybe are truly reconciled. I say 90% are still just trying to keep it all buried under the rug.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

theDrifter said:


> No, I think 10% maybe are truly reconciled. I say 90% are still just trying to keep it all buried under the rug.


Oh ok sorry for misunderstanding..yeah I agree big time...any "reconciled" spouse who still talks about their WS's affair is not reconciled but desperately trying to find reasons to stay.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm so sorry you are going through this. It sounds like his affair and post-affair behavior has consumed too much of your life. Do you go to IC? This can not be healthy way to live.


You're right it's not healthy. I have nightmares frequently and spend way too much time obsessing about this. 

I went to IC in the immediate aftermath of D-day. My husband refused MC. It felt good to speak to someone but my therapist basically told me I need to give an ultimatum -- MC or I leave. I couldn't deal with that and therefore didn't want to see that therapist anymore.

In recent months I have been considering finding a different therapist just to sort out my feelings. A friend recently asked me if I have given up hope of staying with my husband long term. If I'm honest with myself, the answer is no. I haven't completely given up that hope. But I see myself in the future as divorced. I'm in my mid-40's. I have a great job. In 20 years or so I'll probably be retired, and I envision enjoying a solo urban condo rather than a shared retirement home with my husband. It seems far more appealing. That said, I'm still conflicted.

Thanks for reading.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

totalfive21 said:


> You're right it's not healthy. I have nightmares frequently and spend way too much time obsessing about this.
> 
> I went to IC in the immediate aftermath of D-day. My husband refused MC. It felt good to speak to someone but my therapist basically told me I need to give an ultimatum -- MC or I leave. I couldn't deal with that and therefore didn't want to see that therapist anymore.
> 
> ...


He refused MC, did he go to IC? It sounds like he is not at all remorseful and to be honest you can't reconcile wiht a souse who does not feel some sense of remorse. I dont think WSs ever truly get it but some try to. If he is not even trying and you have a great job, are still young - why stay long term? Get a good therapist, work on you and leave him behnd if he does not do the work.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> In the beginning you are right, the BS and the children do pay a lot of consequences. However, with some WSs they also suffer, some not so much.
> 
> Of course I suffered some consequences. However, I have recovered enough in the last 20 years to be able to smile and can have happiness with my activities. I have not let my wife’s betrayal take away my smiles and happiness. Sokillme, you seem to be concerned with justice and punishment more than healing. Justice and punishment has its place but it does not dominate my dealing with infidelity.
> 
> *I am more interested in my healing than still concentrating on justice and punishment.*


There really is no justice or punishment in these cases. There never will be. I will say that it is tragically unfair, but there is a lot in life that is unfair. Anyway this is what people get wrong about me. I don't couch my opinion about what I think infidelity is but it's not because I want the WS to suffer, in most cases I don't even think about the WS. I am not very positive about R because I think the dynamic is such that think the odds for a healthy relationship are almost nil. I have to be honest I can't point to one story I have read that has made me feel differently. Even the good ones half of their marriage is about the affair. It consumes all aspects of the marriage, I am not going to say that is a healthy marriage. It's a diminishes marriage from what a marriage should be. There is a reason why it's called adultery, it adulterates the marriage. 

Even your post, you are basically saying you are happy in spite of your wife. How sad for you that you never got to have a marriage where you were happy because of your wife. Most of you guys sound like this, you don't know what you are missing. It just makes me sad.

Don't worry I am sure Quality will show up soon to tell me how wrong I am and how screwed up I am.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow...it sounds like he had serious parental issues. I've written many times before that I know over a dozen children of cheating parents and about half went on to cheat themselves. Now I know my sample is not scientific but what was sad is it didnt matter how brutal the WS's infidelity was to the BS they still grew up to cheat anyway. I do think it has an impact on the kids no matter ow the parents handle it.


Personally I think some of this is genetic like alcoholism. I worry about myself with how my father is.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you feel your WW got away with it on some level? Just curious...


Tough question ... honest answer ... not sure.

Her A was not nearly as extreme as some of the stuff we read, and I was much tougher on her than most BH's. Post A, the whole power dynamic in our relationship did a 180. However, upon reflection, I don't think she valued the "specialness" of our relationship the same way I did, so she didn't lose as much, because she didn't value it as much. So, I wouldn't exactly describe it as she got away with it, as much as she had a much easier time dealing with the fallout from the A, than I have in dealing with the loss of what I treasured most.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> Tough question ... honest answer ... not sure.
> 
> Her A was not nearly as extreme as some of the stuff we read, and I was much tougher on her than most BH's. Post A, the whole power dynamic in our relationship did a 180. However, upon reflection, *I don't think she valued the "specialness" of our relationship the same way I did, so she didn't lose as much, because she didn't value it as much.* So, I wouldn't exactly describe it as she got away with it, as much as she had a much easier time dealing with the fallout from the A, than I have in dealing with the loss of what I treasured most.


That is really sad. Your wife doesnt sound like she reflected much on things if that is what you think. How could she not value the specialness? If she doesnt mourn what she has lost how can she value or appreciate what she has? 

Do you think shed be as forgiving if you had an A or is she a hypocrite?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Personally I think some of this is genetic like alcoholism. I worry about myself with how my father is.


Or it is learned behavior - my mom or dad cheated and I love them so it cant be that bad.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> He refused MC, did he go to IC? It sounds like he is not at all remorseful and to be honest you can't reconcile wiht a souse who does not feel some sense of remorse. I dont think WSs ever truly get it but some try to. If he is not even trying and you have a great job, are still young - why stay long term? Get a good therapist, work on you and leave him behnd if he does not do the work.


No he did not go to IC either. You're right he does not seem remorseful. Once or twice, close to the end of the affair, he told me that it was the worst mistake of his life. When I told him he made a fool of me, he said, "no, I made a fool of myself." Since that time, on several occasions he has hinted at remorse by saying "I'm so lucky we're together." or "I'm so lucky we're all together." (meaning with our son too). But heavy lifting? Unbridled groveling and remorse? No. Rugsweeping, yes. 

I guess I am staying now mostly for my son. He didn't ask for this. Of course, neither did I. But as a parent of a child who is still young, I cannot bring myself to end my marriage because I can't "get over" an incident in the past. BTW, he never admitted the affair became physical. I know they only cop to what was discovered though. It supposedly lasted only 2 months or so, but I found evidence in the following TWO years that the OW at a minimum had phoned him at work.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

theDrifter said:


> I will never, ever believe that it is possible for a marriage to be "better" because of an affair. The only exceptions I make are: if the BH actually enjoys the thought of his wife having sex with another man or that he truly doesn't care about the sexual part of her cheating. But, these rare exceptions aside, the very suggestion that a marriage can be better is ridicules.


I believe it but it would have to mean there was some form of physical abuse, or that there was no love in the marriage like a shotgun wedding. Not in your normal fall in love and get married kind.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Red Sonja said:


> I chose not to R after infidelity and, my marriage had other negative factors during its course, that said:
> 
> 1. My view of human-beings has forever changed.
> 
> ...


This is sad. I wish you could get a different lesson from this. You survived! You were able to get though it. Nothing will ever be as hard except maybe the loss of a child (haven't had that pain). I have been through some hard stuff after getting cheated on. The cheating is worse. 

I'll be damn sure that I know I am one strong mother ... You even think about cheating on me and you are gone, bye. You are a friend who does something dishonest to me and your gone. I know I can deal with the pain of separation because nothing could be worse. I will just detox and move on. In that sense you had to be a person of really strong character to hang out with me. My wife's character seems pretty strong to me. It's why I picked her and actually why she survived my dating trial as I like to think of it. So for me I continued to let my guard down because I knew I was strong enough to take it, actually it doesn't seem that hard to take anymore. I have accepted human nature and the fact that in life some relationships end. 

I guess what I am saying overcoming being cheated on can give you the tools to be in a very strong position when picking your next relationship. Or just having good relationships in life. Like heat treatment and quenching steel.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is really sad. Your wife doesnt sound like she reflected much on things if that is what you think. How could she not value the specialness? If she doesnt mourn what she has lost how can she value or appreciate what she has?
> 
> Do you think shed be as forgiving if you had an A or is she a hypocrite?


It's more than sad ... it absolutely sucks ass. Up to that point, my W had led a pretty easy existence, with the exception of losing her Dad at a young age, and this was her very first real world major life screw up at 42, whereas I had made a few doozies up to that point and all too well knew that life was capable to kicking me in the nuts. The shock of my reaction, losing her two long term friends, and another close work colleague she confided in, caused her to shut down for a time as most conflict avoiders tend to do. However, I have seen her mature through this over the years, and she is more self aware now than she ever has been. Maybe its a delayed reaction, or more likely finally maturing enough to accept and own her ****, but I've seen some real growth in her in just the past 6 months, and being more proactive about "US" every day.

To answer your question, at the time, if I would have went out and had a revenge A, we would have likely blew up, but now that she has accepted how much pain she inflicted, I think she would probably be inclined to give it a shot, but that's just mental masturbation, since I have no intention of putting her in that position.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> It's more than sad ... it absolutely sucks ass. Up to that point, my W had led a pretty easy existence, with the exception of losing her Dad at a young age, and this was her very first real world major life screw up at 42, whereas I had made a few doozies up to that point and all too well knew that life was capable to kicking me in the nuts. The shock of my reaction, losing her two long term friends, and another close work colleague she confided in, caused her to shut down for a time as most conflict avoiders tend to do. However, I have seen her mature through this over the years, and she is more self aware now than she ever has been. Maybe its a delayed reaction, or more likely finally maturing enough to accept and own her ****, but I've seen some real growth in her in just the past 6 months, and being more proactive about "US" every day.
> 
> To answer your question, at the time, if I would have went out and had a revenge A, we would have likely blew up, but now that she has accepted how much pain she inflicted, I think she would probably be inclined to give it a shot, but that's just mental masturbation, since I have no intention of putting her in that position.



Its interesting at that time she'd have divorced if you had an RA..there is such hypocrisy with WSs it is sickening...they have such a high degree of entitlement and selfishness....I wonder how many, even those who reconcile, come out of their selfishness entirely....

One point of disagreement - your WW will NEVER know how much pain she inflicted since she has had the luxury of having a faithful spouse...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

theDrifter said:


> I would love to find studies that track couples who endure infidelity to find out a couple things. First, if they are still together are they satisfied with their marriage today. Second, does BS believe they have healed.


Not sure if their opinion of this is that objective, in the sense that they may feel they are satisfied but if this is the only marriage they have known maybe they are still settling for kale instead of chocolate. They may like kale, but if you gave them chocolate they would never eat kale again.

_I can see smoke coming out of certain posters ears right now._ :wink2:

It the interest in fairness it could also be said all that really matters is their satisfaction because it is their marriage. 

That's the thing, just because someone is happy in a bad situation doesn't me someone else would be and vice versa. In a sense we are all spinning our wheels when we give or look for advice about this. One thing though that is obvious if you are still sad and posting on a R board 2, 3, 5, 10 years out you are not as happy as you say you are.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MyRevelation said:


> To fully answer your question would take more time than I have to write and probably you have to read, but the short version is the typical drunken ONS on a girls only vacation. I trusted her too much and overlooked the selfish me, me, me red flags, and it bit me in the ass. I had been D'd before, and reconnected with someone from my hometown that had harbored a "thing" for me since grade school that I was only mildly aware of due to our age difference (5 years), which is nothing as adults, but wasn't even on my radar as a HS senior and she was 12. After what I had been through in prior relationships and now in my early 30's, it felt good to be the one pursued by the young hottie and it blinded me to the more selfish aspects of her personality, and as I said, it bit me.
> 
> I still, or maybe should say refound, respect for her, but she had to earn it back over the past nearly 10 years. My issue is more with the loss of the pride I once felt about our relationship that I considered "special", and after a lot of reflection, it is that "specialness" that I treasured so much, and still grieve its loss.
> 
> ...


See no real justice. The sadness in your story is why I push so hard for BS to move on. When this happened you could have moved on and not had to live with all this disappointment in your life. There are a lot of guys who do this though. So many melancholy post from men who stayed. 

So here is a bunch of questions..

Why didn't you move on, did you think it was going to be this way then or did you think you would eventually return to the way the marriage was before? How did you find out? Are you sure you have all the facts and this was her first rodeo? I think people are ether cheaters or non cheaters like how you wouldn't do it, even though you had a chance and some wouldn't blame you. So I always find it fishy that someones character could just change for one single night. That doesn't fit with my experience, more like there was other maybe smaller things and boundaries being pushed. You talk about red flags was your wife always pushing the limits? Does your wife know and feel the loss too (the magic pedestal thing you talk about)? I suspect most WS don't because the didn't value it in the first place. (just read your other post which confirms my thoughts).

Here is a biggie, what if you just happened to meet someone, not looking who you really clicked with. Would you stay out of duty and honor? I don't believe you could stay out of loyalty as that went out the window. 

Sorry for the interrogation.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> See no real justice. Does your wife know and feel the loss too? I suspect most WS don't because the didn't value it in the first place.


In my experience many WSs are perfectly willing to live with the injustice being one sided in their favor but howl when they have injustice inflicted upon them. Ever read a WS who becomes a MH - it is eye opening. They whine about how unfair it is but were perfectly willing to live with things the other way. WSs suddenly discover boundaries after getting caught - I read one case where the H in the heat of anger threatened an RA and the WW told her H she didnt want to be in a relationship with a partner who cheated and the guy fvcking took it and said she was right. SMH.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

totalfive21 said:


> In response to the original question from the OP...
> 
> 4.5 years post d-day for me, the long term effect of the affair has been deep resentment on my part. At first, when I was so devastated and desperate for my WH to stay with me, I was willing to "forgive" immediately as I did the "pick me" dance. He stayed. I was relieved. I kept the family together for our young son. I was honestly thinking of my son's well being more than my own, but I was also sooooo emotional myself about my marriage.
> 
> ...


When your son is grown then what? I think staying for the kids is a terrible mistake. Modeling a loveless marriage will affect him just as much as divorce. But it's your life. At least do an ask reddit or something.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> I can only speak for myself. I no longer trust anyone or anything.
> 
> And I lost my smile.


Damn bandit, I was about to write the same, verbatim. 

Only exception is I learned to smile again. 






(Any chance you can bring back that sweet piece you had for your avatar?)


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

rockon said:


> Damn bandit, I was about to write the same, verbatim.
> 
> Only exception is I learned to smile again.
> 
> ...


I think many BSs have trust issues after dday...I wonder how many WSs have trust issues? Hmmm ..I'm thnking most do just fine until they themselves get betrayed - if they ever do...


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> When your son is grown then what? I think staying for the kids is a terrible mistake. Modeling a loveless marriage will affect him just as much as divorce. But it's your life. At least do an ask reddit or something.


I have tried very hard to not portray a loveless marriage. My husband is affectionate toward me in front of my son and I reciprocate. I am still conflicted about what will happen in the long term, as I mentioned, and you're right that to some degree my son might pick up on that, but I try darn hard to not show anything. Sorry to be ignorant, but what's an "ask reddit"? I googled and see that it's a forum for questions, but is there something specific you meant?


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think many BSs have trust issues after dday...I wonder how many WSs have trust issues? Hmmm ..I'm thnking most do just fine until they themselves get betrayed - if they ever do...


Trust issues is a big understatement. It's been 6+ years and I still do not trust on a personal level. 

I will meet a very nice woman and my first thought is how will you try to screw me over. It's not healthy. I hate it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

This thread should be required reading by BS, not the rah rah, "you can do it" "you're on the path to happiness" that is often posted on these threads. 

An interesting point that could be made and that I also see a lot of on these threads is often the BS idolizes and puts their WS on a pedestal like @MyRevelation did. I do this to, I really think it is an important part of how I feel love. They do this only to find out that the WS had no concept and found no value in that aspect of the love that was given to them. I think if I had a child I would teach them to make sure that they are on the same page when it comes to thinking like this and who they are committing to.

I am reminded of another thread I read one time where the guy was lamenting that after he has sex with his adulterous wife the sacredness was broken. But the truth was it was only sacred to him. There never was anything sacred about it for her. Part of his issue was assuming that she ever got that in the first place. I think all of us who get cheated on make this assumption. It's a hard lesson to learn that some people just aren't that deep. I actually think introspection is an underrated quality to look for in a spouse. It has great value.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

totalfive21 said:


> I have tried very hard to not portray a loveless marriage. My husband is affectionate toward me in front of my son and I reciprocate. I am still conflicted about what will happen in the long term, as I mentioned, and you're right that to some degree my son might pick up on that, but I try darn hard to not show anything. Sorry to be ignorant, but what's an "ask reddit"? I googled and see that it's a forum for questions, but is there something specific you meant?


It's a part of the board where you ask questions. It's probably been asked but one might be. "For those of you who know your parents stayed together for you how do you feel about that now?" Another might be, "For those of you who stayed for the kids how did it go?" I would search Google to see if it's been asked but you can ask it yourself if not. I think you are going to find the answers are not what you expect. 

I know I would be pissed and feel guilty if one of my parents basically sacrificed there relational happiness for me. I didn't ask for that, especially if it took destroying their soul and living with someone who treated them like crap to do it. You may be surprised that your son may one day have a very different take on this then you do.

I actually am in a place to talk to this as though it is a little different my stepfather was verbally abusive. While it was going on I ask my Mom one time why is she putting up with it. She said she was staying basically for me because she didn't think she could handle me and support us financially. I told her then an there I would not take that on and was not responsible and would not take responsibility for that choice. I was about 14 or 15. It seemed pretty unfair to put that on me. I still feel that way. 

Well having him in my life probably made me act out more and I know it caused issues in my young adult life, and he eventually sent thousands of dollars to someone he met on the internet, so there's that. At that point I told her she was less financially secure alone then she was with him. Finally she left. She will tell you the years being single have been the happiest times in her life. No she will say that was the worst mistake in her life. 

I know this is hard to hear but it's a mistake to assume you are safe cause your husband may still blow up your sons life. At least if you moved on now you could do so in a controlled way. If you read on here you see all manor of ****ed up things that WS do to their families. You even say yourself you are waiting for the other shoe to drop. I think IC would be good for you. But you need to think about all the eventualities not just the one where somehow your son doesn't pick up on the fact that you stayed in a loveless marriage for him, he never knew it was loveless, and your husband never cheated again. That seems almost to perfect a scenario when you are dealing with a cheater. It seems very unlikely.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I have to be honest I can't point to one story I have read that has made me feel differently. Even the good ones half of their marriage is about the affair. It consumes all aspects of the marriage, I am not going to say that is a healthy marriage. It's a diminishes marriage from what a marriage should be. There is a reason why it's called adultery, it adulterates the marriage.
> 
> Even your post, you are basically saying you are happy in spite of your wife. How sad for you that you never got to have a marriage where you were happy because of your wife. Most of you guys sound like this, you.


My W and I don't speak much about her A anymoree, it doesn't consume us really. I consider it a healthy marriage now, but who is the real judge of that anyways? Marriage is between two people, so is there a need for some 3rd party validation on the statr of the M quality?

I think the things that helped me R are believing that people are not perfect and screw up, and can hurt you in doing so, knowingly.
It also helped me that I did too screw up big earlier in my life (non relationship related) knowingly and was very selfish, I got caught by someone whom gave me a huge break that I could never be thankful enough for....this perhaps elevated my empathy level enough to help me in R when my W cheated.
So I think every situation is highly different with many other influential factors that drive wether M after and A can be good again, I don't think anyone will ever be able to tell the success ratio TBH, but I believe is possible, but also fully admitting is hard work and really sucks to go thru it...BS has every right to D immediately, no questions asked.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I also wonder how "successful" Rs will do 10 years out or more. Will the BS be tempted after the kids are grown to look for greener pastures or will they just give in and stay? I know of one case where the couple lingered in misery for almost a decade and eventually called it quits. Think about it - your spouse cheated - you hit midlife or meet someone else - there really is no "oh my poor spouse would never do this to me so I just can't" going through your head at that moment, because they did do it to you and in some cases did it to you for YEARS. I just wonder how often that does happen in marriages where the couple has been in R for awhile and the Bs finally gets sick of living with it everyday.


Having stayed for the kids, yes, the questions you describe came up, and I wrestled with it.

It really depends on what you think is the purpose of long term marriage. I see it as a contract with a lot of dimensions besides "love". My situation is not the same as Mr Blunt's but there are a lot of similarities. My wife is an important partner, and I have a very clear idea of how far I can rely on her in different areas. But I have other significant relationships in my life. 

That was part of the rebuilding process. I think life is like that. Bad things happen, and you process it and adjust. When I was in my twenties I had all sorts of unrealistic expectations from life.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Having stayed for the kids, yes, the questions you describe came up, and I wrestled with it.
> 
> It really depends on what you think is the purpose of long term marriage. I see it as a contract with a lot of dimensions besides "love". My situation is not the same as Mr Blunt's but there are a lot of similarities. *My wife is an important partner, and I have a very clear idea of how far I can rely on her in different areas. But I have other significant relationships in my life. *
> 
> That was part of the rebuilding process. I think life is like that. Bad things happen, and you process it and adjust. When I was in my twenties I had all sorts of unrealistic expectations from life.


Hey Wazza nice to see you posting again. This is what I see in a lot of couples after infidelity - at least in my own life - they begin to form other bonds and get fulfillment in other areas in life. Some who stayed fell into alcoholism or depression others were just plain whipped by their WS - but many ended up as you describe. The spouse went from being the sun and the moon to merely a part of their lives. I dont think WS's realize what they threw away. Also I wonder just how many BSs could find something better if they took the leap.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> My W and I don't speak much about her A anymoree, it doesn't consume us really. I consider it a healthy marriage now, but who is the real judge of that anyways? Marriage is between two people, so is there a need for some 3rd party validation on the statr of the M quality?
> 
> I think the things that helped me R are believing that people are not perfect and screw up, and can hurt you in doing so, knowingly.
> It also helped me that I did too screw up big earlier in my life (non relationship related) knowingly and was very selfish, I got caught by someone whom gave me a huge break that I could never be thankful enough for....this perhaps elevated my empathy level enough to help me in R when my W cheated.
> So I think every situation is highly different with many other influential factors that drive wether* M after and A can be good again*, I don't think anyone will ever be able to tell the success ratio TBH, but I believe is possible, but also fully admitting is hard work and really sucks to go thru it...BS has every right to D immediately, no questions asked.


Good enough? Yeah sure it can but the shadow never goes away. Everyone stays for their own reasons and I dont judge. However when a BS stays after getting the facts whatever happens after that is on them.


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## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Not sure if their opinion of this is that objective, in the sense that they may feel they are satisfied but if this is the only marriage they have known maybe they are still settling for kale instead of chocolate. They may like kale, but if you gave them chocolate they would never eat kale again.
> 
> _I can see smoke coming out of certain posters ears right now._ :wink2:
> 
> ...


One fact is irrefutable: most of the men who divorce their WW's do not end up posting here for long. I'm still waiting for one of them to say I wish I had stayed. Most of these men might wish that she never cheated and perhaps long for the days before infidelity but none of them seem to think they made a mistake.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

theDrifter said:


> One fact is irrefutable: most of the men who divorce their WW's do not end up posting here for long. I'm still waiting for one of them to say I wish I had stayed. Most of these men might wish that she never cheated and perhaps long for the days before infidelity but none of them seem to think they made a mistake.


Decisive people tend to make a choice and move forward - no fence sitting. It takes a lot of courage and belief in oneself to do that and unfortunately a lot of people do not have that. I also think those who D - accept the challenge of creating a new life and are hoping to make it a better one. I admire those folks.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I know few men miserable after D, maybe not infidelity related, but it happens

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I know few men miserable after D, maybe not infidelity related, but it happens
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Its probably money related if they got screwed in the settlement...


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## MovingFrwrd (Dec 22, 2015)

-

posted in wrong section


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Or it is learned behavior - my mom or dad cheated and I love them so it cant be that bad.


I'm in the learned behavior camp. When I learned about my mom's affair I can still remember my dad saying when asked why he doesn't file for divorce "you marry for life and no one else would take care of her". When my fiasco started those words rattled around my head constantly. No one is truly prepared for this moment if it hits your life, it's natural that a person's first instinct is to do what your parents did. I would have attempted to reconcile because that's what my father did and I was taught the vows you took were vows when times got tough, not when it was easy street and everything was great. Right or wrong that's what I was taught.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> I'm in the learned behavior camp. When I learned about my mom's affair I can still remember my dad saying when asked why he doesn't file for divorce "you marry for life and no one else would take care of her". When my fiasco started those words rattled around my head constantly. No one is truly prepared for this moment if it hits your life, it's natural that a person's first instinct is to do what your parents did. I would have attempted to reconcile because that's what my father did and I was taught the vows you took were vows when times got tough, not when it was easy street and everything was great. Right or wrong that's what I was taught.


Me too..I know of a case where a parent who cheated critiqued their cheating child for coming clean and being honest about their affair. The quote was something like why the hell would you ever admit to what you did. Can you imagine that? So yeah kids definitely learn by watching how their parents behave which is why I think it is important for kids to see some consequences for the cheating parent.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> which is why I think it is important for kids to see some consequences for the cheating parent.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


>


Does this mean you will not be permitting your wayward father any relationship with your children {his grandchildren} someday? After all, you need to model appropriate consequences for cheating to them. Your father still needs to be punished.

Just saying it's quite a bit hypocritical to be preaching divorce, punishing a cheater and having nothing to do with cheating spouse when you don't feel it necessary at all to disassociate yourself from your own wayward father that abandoned your mother and you {except a couple days a week}.


I don't regret reconciling one bit and my wife, children and myself are ALL much better off and suffer far less consequences today that we would have had I {justifiably} kicked my wife to the curb and divorced her. Not only did my wife get to model repentance but I was also challenged with offering forgiveness to our children AND thereafter they got to live safely with their biological parents in a much more loving household that overtly modeled a much healthier marital relationship complete with traditional, appropriate and reciprocal boundaries and accountability.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Does this mean you will not be permitting your wayward father any relationship with your children {his grandchildren} someday? After all, you need to model appropriate consequences for cheating to them. Your father still needs to be punished.
> 
> Just saying it's quite a bit hypocritical to be preaching divorce, punishing a cheater and having nothing to do with cheating spouse when you don't feel it necessary at all to disassociate yourself from your own wayward father that abandoned your mother and you {except a couple days a week}.
> 
> ...


God you are so obtuse. It's a wonder how you can run these seminars you do. I fear someone tells you one thing and you just make something else up in your head. Consequences like divorce? Get it? Anyway I never have once recommended parents be cut out of children's life. On the contrary, I am very pro parents in their children's life, assuming they are functioning adults and not a danger to them. If you are going to criticize me at least do it in the context of what I say.

So when are going to post your full story? Or are you only on here to research and criticize others?

One of the Long Term Effects Of An Affair is Quality policing my posts. Avoiding that should be enough to make any spouse faithful.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Decisive people tend to make a choice and move forward - no fence sitting. It takes a lot of courage and belief in oneself to do that and unfortunately a lot of people do not have that. I also think those who D - accept the challenge of creating a new life and are hoping to make it a better one. I admire those folks.


This is just so disingenuous and completely devoid of understanding what actually happens to betrayed spouses upon discovering their spouse is having an affair. I get it ~ it's kind of the point of these threads you start to keep hammering on your message of hopelessness but whatever. Divorce will always have more long term negative effects after infidelity than a good recovery. Sure the wayward spouse doesn't get punished as severely when you reconcile but so what ~ why do I have to destroy my family just to punish her? 

I forget ~~ are you another one of these guys that's never experienced infidelity telling us lowly weak betrayed spouses how big and tough you'd be if you were, hypothetically, faced with such decision?

Discovering your spouse is cheating is traumatic.

Making sound rational decisions is literally impossible.

It messes with your mind. I started out completely ready to divorce when I, at first, suspected the affair only to completely change my mind after I completely uncovered it. It's a completely natural reaction, biologically speaking, for men to want to keep possession of their girl. We did it in elementary, middle and school and in every romantic relationship thereafter. Men scramble to overcome rejection and abandonment like it's a puzzle that needs to be solved or a game of sport that we need to "win". Almost every guy I've met that was cheated on that is now divorced ~~ INITIALLY, wanted to reconcile. The only ones that actually leave immediately are the ones that had already checked out of the marriage themselves a long time before. 

It takes courage and faith to decide to reconcile or choose to divorce. But it's often most wise to take a little time and assess the situation and decide later, in a very timely fashion ~~ not indefinitely ~~ not sitting in limbo while she decides {ala Divorce Busting}. "decide" asap on a dang timeline, at least.

Further, I didn't choose to reconcile because I was somehow scared to "accept the challenge of creating a new life and hoping to make it a better one", rather, I got my wife to accept the challenge of creating a new life and marriage with me, TOGETHER, while planning to make it a better one; and, if we failed, I'd have then moved on and created a new life without her that would have been better than what I had previous to that {there would be no "hoping to make it a better one" ~ I'd have just done it}.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Divorce will always have more long term negative effects after infidelity than a good recovery.


Yeah it's quite obvious how well everyone has recovered on the R board on SI. I mean you seem well adjusted. :wink2:


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> God you are so obtuse. It's a wonder how you can run these seminars you do. I fear someone tells you one thing and you just make something else up in your head. Consequences like divorce? Get it? Anyway I never have once recommended parents be cut out of children's life. On the contrary, I am very pro parents in their children's life, assuming they are functioning adults and not a danger to them. If you are going to criticize me at least do it in the context of what I say.


recommending divorce as the only appropriate consequence for adultery and suggesting that kids need to have that modelled for them IS actually recommending parents be cut out of their children's life.

Even if my wife and I each got 50% custody ~ We'd each be "cut out" of 50% of our children's lives.

We had young children and it would have been years before they were adults and very often teenage children LIKE living with the [formerly] wayward parent because teenagers are narcissists and like living with the good time parent that can't be bothered with parenting and has no boundaries, so many betrayed spouses, particularly betrayed ex-husband's end up being "cut out" of even MORE of their children's lives.

But you quoted truthseek's statement that children need to see consequences modelled and I know how you feel about everyone needs to divorce so I just thought it a bit hypocritical that you're likely going to allow your own children to have a relationship with your wayward father who hasn't hardly had any consequences for his cheating on your mother and abandoning you to then be abused by your step-father. Just seems inconsistent that you're likely going to model something else for your own children. Unlike my wife, has your dad even repented? 

Further, why is it only your mother's obligation to deliver consequences upon your father. You're an adult, why don't you do it. You're so eager for all us betrayed spouses to dump our cheating spouses, I challenge you to dump your dad. It's unhealthy for you to put up with his yet wayward unapologetic abusive mindset. Were it not for him, you wouldn't be here listening to me at all. 


snark aside...

we all have cognitive dissonance to some degree or another. I'm a couple decades into this and I'm really sure that I feel fine about it all now. I'm not fighting demons or trying to convince myself everything is great and I certainly don't have to or need to convince anyone here {I just repeat it as hope for the newbies reading along}. We're just good and we are both very lucky & blessed to be at this place in our lives. I'm also not trying to brag or make anyone feel bad because they weren't able to accomplish recovery in such a manner. My wife and I worked well together to accomplish this. Her affair was just as bad as many we see her on TAM. We didn't have some easy situation to overcome. We both thought the marriage was over. We aren't unique and really anyone can do it too {I've seen it happen for others}. But maybe I'm wrong and OM will stop by tomorrow and steal my wife away and I'll be destroyed again, for a time ~ then get up again and find happiness elsewhere again. I'm not afraid of whatever life has in store for me. That said, I'm sincerely asking, does the notion that your parents COULD HAVE reconciled make you feel worse about what you endured after they divorced due to his infidelity and unrepentance? I mean, you're married, what is it, 14 years now and your wife hasn't cheated on you but you're spending hundreds of hours the last year or so on here and on Reddit telling everyone you can that they need to divorce their cheating spouse and that reconciliation doesn't exist and that it's, apparently, unhealthy to model to the children. Seriously, what or where is YOUR dissonance here?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Yeah it's quite obvious how well everyone has recovered on the R board on SI. I mean you seem well adjusted. :wink2:


SI is a cesspool. The deceased former admin liked it that way and anyone that truly wanted to recover would leave that place and get about doing it and living it.


I don't care if you think I'm maladjusted. 

When you roll around in the mud with pigs, you tend to get a little dirty yourself.

Again, my message of hope is simply offered as a counterbalance to the perpetual message of hopelessness being offered purposefully, persistently and passive aggressively, in direct opposition to reality and without any practical relevant experience, by you and a few others on this forum.

It's not completely, entirely and utterly impossible to have a much better marriage and even a great model marriage in spite of previous infidelity. It doesn't happen every time and certainly it's a lot more challenging to get there after infidelity. It's hard to get there even without infidelity; but, sometimes, such marital trauma DOES, like a near death experience, alter the trajectory of the marital relationship to heights it probably wouldn't have seen any other way. We weren't good at marriage ~ now we are and THAT is what made|makes all the difference.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Yeah it's quite obvious how well everyone has recovered on the R board on SI. I mean you seem well adjusted. :wink2:


That R board can be a sad place - I feel for those folks - multiple APs - multile ddays - I wish those people had more faith in themselves and a better future and made the *decisive* choice to leave their sh!tty spouse behind.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Any WS who says they did not enjoy the high of the affair or the nasty affair sex is lying....what they dont like is paying the bill for getting caught..


That's why I roll my eyes up all the way into the back of my head when I read the utter NONSENSE _*so*_ many BS's post on SI about the supposed 'bad' sex their husbands claim to have had with their OW. You can actually picture them smirking with a sense of superiority as they type their post because they actually *believe* the bull**** they were fed by their cheaters on D-Day.

You constantly see BS's posting, "the OW begged my husband to have sex and finally wore him down. But he couldn't keep an erection no matter how hard he tried and he threw up on the way home...." or, "my husband had sex with her _once_ and he said it was SO horrible that he kept finding excuses not to do it again..." and, "he _hated_ having sex with her and said he had to think of ME when he did it or he couldn't finish..."

OMG. The sheer *delusion*. Seriously.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's why I roll my eyes up all the way into the back of my head when I read the utter NONSENSE _*so*_ many BS's post on SI about the supposed 'bad' sex their husbands claim to have had with their OW. You can actually picture them smirking with a sense of superiority as they type their post because they actually *believe* the bull**** they were fed by their cheaters on D-Day.
> 
> You constantly see BS's posting, "the OW begged my husband to have sex and finally wore him down. But he couldn't keep an erection no matter how hard he tried and he threw up on the way home...." or, "my husband had sex with her _once_ and he said it was SO horrible that he kept finding excuses not to do it again..." and, "he _hated_ having sex with her and said he had to think of ME when he did it or he couldn't finish..."
> 
> OMG. The sheer *delusion*. Seriously.


Agreed - if your spouse has a short term or long term affair they were liking the sex and their AP a whole lot.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

sokillme said:


> When your son is grown then what? I think staying for the kids is a terrible mistake. Modeling a loveless marriage will affect him just as much as divorce. But it's your life. At least do an ask reddit or something.


Like a lot of BS's who use their children as an excuse to stay right where they are, it's really more about allowing your fear to paralyze you into not doing a positive thing about it. It's just a lot easier to believe you're doing it for the kids. You see this all the time.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Like a lot of BS's who use their children as an excuse to stay right where they are, it's really more about allowing your fear to paralyze you into not doing a positive thing about it. It's just a lot easier to believe you're doing it for the kids. You see this all the time.


I know BSs have a variety of reasons for staying - kids, money, family or even fear. Believe it or not I dont judge people who stay. But it seems to me that the affair casts a permanent shadow over the marriage. Things can get back to good enough and many people are ok with that.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed - if your spouse has a short term or long term affair they were liking the sex and their AP a whole lot.


Meh, not necessarily, sex with someone new can be odd for sure, as neither knows each other well enough yet. And in the case of my W she gave OM sex in return for attention and compliments, she didn't care much for the sex, just did it but didn't enjoy it much (this were her words in text messages to her toxic friend during A, am not just going by her own words to me btw).
I think overall generalization of affairs and what happens within them is incorrect, sure they all follow a very similar script, but the actors are all different and so are their feelings n experiences


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Meh, not necessarily, sex with someone new can be odd for sure, as neither knows each other well enough yet. And in the case of my W she gave OM sex in return for attention and compliments, she didn't care much for the sex, just did it but didn't enjoy it much (this were her words in text messages to her toxic friend during A, am not just going by her own words to me btw).
> I think overall generalization of affairs and what happens within them is incorrect, sure they all follow a very similar script, but the actors are all different and so are their feelings n experiences


The WS had a good time with the A if they kept going back perhaps the sex was less fun than the seduction or vice versa but they were enjoying it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> SI is a cesspool. The deceased former admin liked it that way and anyone that truly wanted to recover would leave that place and get about doing it and living it.
> 
> 
> I don't care if you think I'm maladjusted.
> ...


Funny I think I offer hope as of the stories I read about R it is always always done out of fear. I want to empower people to not be afraid to find better. My hope is to let people know there are better people out there, you can still have a relationship where you don't have to watch your spouse like a child, you don't have to block out mind movies to have sex with them. You don't have to feel bad about yourself to be with them. You don't have to compromise what was at one point a core principle for your life (never staying with someone who cheats on you). You don't have to live in denial about out how disloyal and despicable these people were to you and many often time your children. Even though deep in your mind you know it. And even when the problems are less in the forefront you don't have to spend every moment of your marriage filtered through the lens of infidelity. Worrying about where the triggers are going to come from. That is a true hope for healing. 

There are SO many people who when they hear these stories cringe at the level of blatant debasement of the WS. Those are the types of people who make good spouses. Most of the time the WS had some sort of mental or emotional damage that really makes them a poor choice for a relationship anyway. At least until the do really hard work. And they shouldn't be in the middle of doing this hard work while also juggling a damaged spouse. It's like a person learning to play piano and giving a concerto at the same time. It's unfair to the WS too. If you do R what do you get in the end. Even most of the best WS doesn't ever really understand the magnitude of what they have done. The don't have that in them it's why they do it in the first place. They don't think about relationships like we do. In the end you are still married to a person who stabbed you in the back. The cost/reward is really just not worth it. 

For every success story like maybe yours is there are about 1000 people posting on these boards miserable sometimes 20 years later. And even you who may be happy, for you to do it you and your wife basically made it your ministry. So that moment has basically consumed your entire life. Do you ever tell the person thinking of R that it will basically have to become your life's work to get over it? You should at least do that. I wonder what you would have done if you had just moved on. I doubt you would be posting on this board. What you are advocating if for is like the lottery. The majority of the people in these situations are never going to have good marriages. They are going to have marriages that survived. They are going to be stuck in dead marriages. That's a tragedy and your advice perpetuates it. 

You always talk about how bad SI is, but it is the number one site for people going through infidelity, and long term recovery. You may not like it but it probably the most accurate picture of what life is like for most people in R. Because if you are going to post about it that is where you are going to do it. It's not a small sample size, its people from all over the world so I think it probably gives a accurate picture of human nature. The only part of the site where people are consistently happy is in the Starting Over part. And all those people divorced. That's the thing. You may not like it but SI is probably the greatest unfiltered sample size of what people who are trying to get through infidelity lives are like as. It's anonymous and wide open. Here is the other thing, I don't really see much difference here or any of the boards.

So I say even though you want people to have a life like you have, what most people end up with is what those people on SI have. You hate that site because you see their misery. But that is what your advice is leading them to. Now I can here you. The people I council have great lives. How many of the people on this board are you going to council individually? NONE. The truth is most people don't have it in them to put in the effort to make R a part of there whole lives like you did. To be a broken WS daily counselor like a BS has to do when there are sever emotional problems. So it's no wonder they wind up with marriages like the ones on SI. Most people come on here and want us to tell them a way for their marriage is going to go back to the way was before. It's wrong to give them false hope in that. It's better to give them a more achievable hope. 

By the way I am very glad my Mom who desperately wanted to R with my Dad didn't get the chance. He would have cheated again as he did on his long term girlfriend. He never had it in him to be a faithful spouse. It's not in his nature. And if we had to have gone through it twice I don't know if she or I would have survived it. Let say you could have advocated for that and then he had cheated again would you have and culpability in that?


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> See no real justice. The sadness in your story is why I push so hard for BS to move on. When this happened you could have moved on and not had to live with all this disappointment in your life. There are a lot of guys who do this though. So many melancholy post from men who stayed.
> 
> So here is a bunch of questions..
> 
> ...


Yesterday was kind of a "melancholy" (very appropriate word) day for me and I let some stuff out. I really don't want to go over a bunch of specifics again as I'm not really seeking any advice, just adding to the conversation on long term effects.

Upon years of reflection, I'm solid in my belief that I made the right choice to R in my specific circumstance, but I had much easier circumstances than most. I was dealing with a short ONS and 10 day EA after the vacation where I picked up on weird behaviors quickly and busted her ... I read a tip to check her "sent" folder and sure enough ... she had deleted the incoming, but forgot the sent. Also, there was no real threat ... no ILY's, no emotional attachment, just a stupid black-out drunken bad choice, no doubt encouraged by a true "player" type preying on unattached women in an all-inclusive tropical resort location. While not making excuses, there is also some evidence that a date rape type drug may have been used. Our MC picked up on that possibility later on, and had us do some reading on "Power Rapists" and OM hit on like 7 of the 10 defining characteristics. Also, from reading the emails, it was clear this was more like a high school crush ... very superficial and immature. In fact, in one of the email my W stated how she felt like she was back in high school.

I also acted swiftly to control the damage. Less than 15 minutes after discovery, I issued a strict ultimatum ... never contact OM again and recommit to us fully, which she did, while begging, apologizing, and admitting her stupidity or she could pack her **** and go. I then confronted OM by phone the next day, with W listening on the extension, and while he did corroborate her story, he also threw my W under the bus to keep me from blowing up his world ... I could probably still dig up the email I sent him to get him to call me and confess (some of my better work, on short notice and under extreme stress) ... so she got to hear first hand how he was just trolling for ***** and had to accept she'd been used and manipulated.

At that time, although she was 42 years old, she had lived a sheltered life and was very immature in her world views. This was also her first real life changing screw up, and as the enormity of her stupidity sunk in, she was forced to grow up and face the ****storm she caused. It didn't occur overnight, or as quickly as I would have liked, but she is evolving and becoming more self aware, and although her old selfish tendencies pop up every now and then, I don't hesitate to call her out of her **** when she does it.

She is a much better W and partner now than 10 years ago, but as truthseeker correctly pointed out, there will always be that shadow over what could have been, and the cost of that improvement was not nearly worth the price paid.

As for your last question, if I do an honest self-assessment of the guy in the mirror, I have a content, enjoyable and happy life. I am healthier than most and looking forward to retirement in a little over 3 years, where I can spend all the time I want with my bird dogs, travel some, and overall enjoy life and my W will be a large important part of that, so I'm not interested in looking for a "soulmate" (even if I believed is such a thing) should such a mythical being cross my path.

Thanks to you and truthseeker for a good discussion.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> She is a much better W and partner now than 10 years ago, but as truthseeker correctly pointed out, there will always be that shadow over what could have been, and the cost of that improvement was not nearly worth the price paid.
> 
> 
> Thanks to you and truthseeker for a good discussion.


 @MyRevelation I have enjoyed our discussion as well. The point of this thread is to discuss the realistic effects of an affair on most marriages. Right now as I write this I have TWO very close friends going through this - in one case the infidelity occurred over a decade ago and the other it is still fresh. There have been lasting effects on both of them I'm afraid and there is no getting around that. 

The thing is the price that is paid as you point out is paid mostly by the BS not the WS. In your case you reacted DECISIVELY and quickly. Please don't misunderstand my comments as questioning your motives for R. IMO and I know this defies TAM orthodoxy some affairs are indeed worse than others. In my opinion it goes like this:

*Online EA<EA<ONS <Short term A < LTA*

As you have pointed out even in this scenario: a ONS, "remorseful" WW and R there is STILL a shadow over the marriage. I wonder if the WS sees the shadow as much as the BS - I really don't think so.

All of us here have been permanently wounded by our SO's infidelity - if not we would not be here discussing the topic. Cheating is a cruel, vicious and selfish way to look for satisfaction and unless cheated on the WS will never get that. In one of the cases my friends XWS is remarrying and is running around like they are playing out some romance novel with their new fiance. The Bs is still dealing with the financial and emotional fallout - see what I mean? Am I wrong to hope they come home and find their new spouse in bed with a hot 25 yo after a couple of year of marriage? >


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MyRevelation said:


> Yesterday was kind of a "melancholy" (very appropriate word) day for me and I let some stuff out. I really don't want to go over a bunch of specifics again as I'm not really seeking any advice, just adding to the conversation on long term effects.
> 
> Upon years of reflection, I'm solid in my belief that I made the right choice to R in my specific circumstance, but I had much easier circumstances than most. I was dealing with a short ONS and 10 day EA after the vacation where I picked up on weird behaviors quickly and busted her ... I read a tip to check her "sent" folder and sure enough ... she had deleted the incoming, but forgot the sent. Also, there was no real threat ... no ILY's, no emotional attachment, just a stupid black-out drunken bad choice, no doubt encouraged by a true "player" type preying on unattached women in an all-inclusive tropical resort location. While not making excuses, there is also some evidence that a date rape type drug may have been used. Our MC picked up on that possibility later on, and had us do some reading on "Power Rapists" and OM hit on like 7 of the 10 defining characteristics. Also, from reading the emails, it was clear this was more like a high school crush ... very superficial and immature. In fact, in one of the email my W stated how she felt like she was back in high school.
> 
> ...


There is honor in what you have decided to do. I suspect from your post that that may be something for you to find joy in even if your marriage didn't turn out to be all you wanted it to.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> There is honor in what you have decided to do. I suspect from your post that that may be something for you to find joy in even if your marriage didn't turn out to be all you wanted it to.


I think this is very true... @MyRevelation is both honorable and honest....I think this is the source of my advocacy for the Bs..many Bs are honorable people whose WSs know they have the luxury of an honorable faithful spouse while they went out and had their fun. The Ws got to have some fun on the side but has no mind movies, severe triggers, etc and know they are in R with someone who is faithful. Makes me nauseous.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> OMG. The sheer *delusion*. Seriously.


It's not delusion as much as it is self-deception. That is what it takes most times to be able to be with the person in the first place. Maybe not with the drunken ONS type but any long term affair. How could it not. Some of the monumentally awful things these people do to their spouses. The lack of human decency. How can you continue to share your life with someone like that if you didn't purposely have some magic thinking about it. I am convinced this is why these BSs post on these board for years and years. Part of the pain is because they have forced there minds to believe something that they know deep down inside is not logical. So there is a kind of dull dissonance that drives them crazy. Every time they think of their spouse there is always the nagging truth about them that they are forced to ignore. Like living with a Tiger. 

People who put down their spouses sexual performances or body to the AP, how could you read that and still try to stay with a person like that. How can you have sex with a person like that. People who lie for years and years. Whose lived two separate lives for years and years. The monumental amount of lies that takes. That basically means this persons whole being was about lying day in and day out. How can you hope to build a life with a person like that. Beyond the betrayal there is the aspect of the mental and emotional handicap that most of these people have. Something has to be very wrong in the brain to be able to behave that way. The thing that in most of us repulses us when we think of treating other human beings like that is missing in these people. I think maybe they can learn through repetition , but actually having a true emotional understanding about it, they never will. I don't think emotions can be learned, they just are. So how can you expect to have a normal relationship with someone like that. Training your mind to do stuff without normal emotional check also takes years and years. So while this is going on every time they fail it puts the BS back to stage one, until you also eventually get to the point where deceit becomes a standard part of life. That is what a BS gives up. It's harmful for them to do that. It's morally wrong to encourage them to do it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@sokillme it has to be painful for the Bs to admit to themselves that their Ws enjoyed shagging someone else while married to them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think this is very true... @MyRevelation is both honorable and honest....I think this is the source of my advocacy for the Bs..many Bs are honorable people whose WSs know they have the luxury of an honorable faithful spouse while they went out and had their fun. The Ws got to have some fun on the side but has no mind movies, severe triggers, etc and know they are in R with someone who is faithful. Makes me nauseous.


Doesn't take away the honor though. However I think there is much less honor if any if you repeatedly let your spouse abuse you. The honorable thing then is to stick up for yourself. You must protect your life as it is a gift.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You must protect your life as it is a gift.


The Bs needs to do whatever they need to in order to heal - period. Ever read a whiny Ws who is crying because their WS said mean things to them? I just roll my eyes...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @sokillme it has to be painful for the Bs to admit to themselves that their Ws enjoyed shagging someone else while married to them.


True but I think the ones who do are much better off in the long run. Again I think some of the people in pain even years later are there because they have not come to terms with the truth of what happened. You lose the sense that you have a sense of reality in a way. You lose your confidence and sense of stability that way. 

Being cheated on robs you of your confidence that you have a grasp of the reality of your life. That is a big part of the pain. The thought that everything I thought about this relationship and this person was wrong. Your like how did this happen, it's like waking up in the twilight zone. A sever mind ****. But worse is continuing to live in denial just to avoid the pain of the truth. If you do that you never get back to feeling confident in your sense of reality. If you want to heal you need to come to terms with the fact that yes, you were totally wrong about the person you loved. Yes it was not what you thought it was. So your new healthy reality is yes I can be wrong about people even though I am convinced I know them the best. That is a hard thing, but at least it's honest and true thing. It also gives you the ability to create a contingency for this reality. You now understand that you have to be more careful. That's healing. 

To do that however also requires the BS to admit just who it was they had or have a relationship with, oh this person who I loved is really a ****ty person, a deceiver and I may never really know them because they are so good at hiding who they are. Being with this person is probably emotionally dangerous. It's hard to R and believe that about the person you are R'ing with.

So what I see a lot of BS's doing is forcing a kind of magic thinking about their WSs. They were depressed because their parents died. I wasn't paying enough attention to them so they found it elsewhere. It was never about sex because the sex sucked. They now realize it was wrong whereas before they had no idea it would hurt me this bad (yet they lied about it for months, why would they lie if they didn't think it was wrong). The AP tricked and seduced them into it because they have a magic tongue. All manner of self deception. I see WS do this about themselves too. 

The problem with this is logically it falls apart. If those were the reasons they would be the reasons for anyone, yet lots of people have just those same circumstance and don't cheat. There in lies the disconnect. The person in denial can't make these two ideas fit. So they struggle. It's why the big question is always, I still don't know why they did it. The answer is you DO know why you just don't want to face it. They did it because it's who they are and what they wanted. It's really a very simple yet very painful truth. 

The bigger problem is when you do that you never come to terms with reality of life and relationships. Everyone susceptible to being tricked and your WS is good at tricking you and probably others. This is what I mean when I say cheating destroyed my innocence about relationships. Also when you do this you never learn to build that all important contingency. Which is something everyone needs to protect themselves. I think this is a small part of the reasons you find people getting cheated on in multiple relationships. Besides the codependency issue that attracts the wrong type of people and also causes attraction to the wrong type of person. Part of getting over the codependency thing is learning that broken people can't be saved by you and are probably best to be avoided as far as having a relationship because they are emotionally dangerous. A painful truth, but a necessary one. 

If you don't get this you end up still stuck in that twilight zone of uncertainty mostly about yourself.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Doesn't take away the honor though. However I think there is much less honor if any if you repeatedly let your spouse abuse you. The honorable thing then is to stick up for yourself. You must protect your life as it is a gift.


I couldn't agree more. I hate what happened to us, but I am proud of how I handled myself in the aftermath. I simply refused to remain in infidelity limbo for even one second, and from that second forward the power dynamic in our M was changed. I had always had an issue with one of the gf's that went on the vacation with my W. I had known her from shady business dealings prior to my W and I getting together, and I also knew she had been an OW for a previous boss, so I had to swallow hard and accept what had happened in addition to accepting that I had ignored several warning signs, that led to a hard earned lesson on trusting too much and to never again let such actions/behaviors go unchallenged. My W now had an understanding of why I had never really liked her gf, and didn't challenge my requirement to remove her and the others from our lives.

I simply don't understand BH's that cower in fear of their WW. I mean seriously, what is there to be afraid of ... she's already done one of the worst things a spouse can do. I'm reminded of an old hillbilly saying ... "Don't kiss the ass that's ****ting on you" ... but we see BH's line up every day to do just that.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

I post this poem every now and then for a BH that's low on self-respect. I really do try to live my life by this message and read it to myself every so often as a gauge to calibrate if I'm being true to myself. As long as I can look that guy in the mirror in the eye and be comfortable with him looking back at me, I'm good to go.

_*The Guy in the Glass*

by Dale Wimbrow, (c) 1934

When you get what you want in your struggle for self,
And the world makes you King for a day,
Then go to the mirror and look at yourself,
And see what that guy has to say.

For it isn't your Father, or Mother, or Wife,
Whose judgement upon you must pass.
The feller whose verdict that counts most in your life
Is the guy staring back from the glass.

He's the feller to please, never mind all the rest,
For he's with you clear up to the end,
And you've passed your most dangerous, difficult test
If the guy in the glass is your friend.

You may be like Jack Horner and "chisel" a plum,
And think you're a wonderful guy,
But the man in the glass says you're only a bum
If you can't look him straight in the eye.

You can fool the whole world down the pathway of years,
And get pats on the back as you pass,
But your final reward will be heartaches and tears
If you've cheated the guy in the glass._


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> I simply don't understand BH's that cower in fear of their WW. I mean seriously, what is there to be afraid of ... she's already done one of the worst things a spouse can do. I'm reminded of an old hillbilly saying ... "Don't kiss the ass that's ****ting on you" ... but we see BH's line up every day to do just that.


This is so true..what is there ot be afraid of..she has already taken her best shot..what the fvck is left...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> This is so true..what is there ot be afraid of..she has already taken her best shot..what the fvck is left...


Should be said. I will start saying it.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Some great reading on the last few posts, so very true in many ways and very insightful, but honestly I mean, people are flawed, they f*ck up all the time, the drug addict, the drunk driver, the cheater, sex offender, the list is endless....true some spouses might not cheat, but surely can do other ugly things too.

I decided to R with my W in part because I knew she wasnt acting as whom she was while she was in her fog state. I dwelled on all the same points everyone is mentioning here, how could she have done this, or that, etc..but I knew she wasnt acting rationally or like herself, was way out of character, way too much. I quit thinking about the why and how over a year ago, and I never really had the mind movies except for couple months (perhaps because I have had over twice the amount of sex partners, and even a couple of 3some, that my W had before we married, at least why I think this wasnt a problem for me, am very confident sexually).
I dont regret R one bit and I do not let the affair define me or our M....I see it as a traumatic event in my life now, is just so happened to come from my W....not from a disease or the death of a close loved one, or things like that, but nevertheless one of the things life throws at you, and I feel stronger because of it.
I have also seen my W suffer greatly, both because of her own actions during her month long A, she saw how she got totally played and used....but also 6 months ago she developed tumors on the uterus and had to endure a full hysterectomy, with a painful recovery, we feel we know each other 10 times better than we did before all this, including her A.

I am not justifying anything or have any real position on R or D.....is a very personal decision with way too many factors involved. About the only advice I would give a new BS is to immediately file for D and send a strong message, no pleading or begging, and only decide to R or continue D upon contrite actions from the WS. Also, I agree and LTA of 6 months or more is hard to come back from, thats a tough one.

.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I decided to R with my W in part because I knew she wasnt acting as whom she was while she was in her fog state..


Sadly, that's just another justification betrayed spouses use all the time in order to accept their WS's **** behavior. They want to believe some random, 'magical fog' just blew in off the coast and encased their cheating spouse, causing them to behave in a way they normally never would. 

I have no problem accepting the fact that cheaters do what they WANT to do.  Period. Not because someone 'made' them do it, not because they were being 'blackmailed' by their affair partner, and not because some kind of magical 'fog' took them over.

It's all about *accountability*.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> It's all about *accountability*.


This can't be stressed enough. All to often, reconciliation results in the WS getting off "Scott Free" for their crime against the marriage. There has to be a price paid before reconciliation should take place.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Sadly, that's just another justification betrayed spouses use all the time in order to accept their WS's **** behavior. They want to believe some random, 'magical fog' just blew in off the coast and encased their cheating spouse, causing them to behave in a way they normally never would.
> 
> I have no problem accepting the fact that cheaters do what they WANT to do.  Period. Not because someone 'made' them do it, not because they were being 'blackmailed' by their affair partner, and not because some kind of magical 'fog' took them over.
> 
> It's all about *accountability*.


I agree it's all about accountability, but I also know my wife's behaviour during the affair was not typical. I don't see that as a justification, but if I conclude the affair behaviour was normal, reconciliation would make a lot less sense.

There's no question in my mind that my wife was slightly crazy at the time of the affair, whatever the reasons. There's also no question that the character defects that led her to cheat are also part of her. The craziness exacerbated them, but it didn't create them. Call it fog, or don't. I don't mind either way, I know what I saw.

I think working through all that and understanding it was really valuable. And having stayed, obviously I concluded that on balance she was a person worth having in my life. But that won't be true for everyone. And a lot of that hangs on things I have invested in the relationship since the affair. It all might have looked very different if I had not chosen to stay for the kids.

Were I ever to divorce and remarry, I would approach it all very differently because of what I learned, just as my current marriage is quite different since the affair.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Like a lot of BS's who use their children as an excuse to stay right where they are, it's really more about allowing your fear to paralyze you into not doing a positive thing about it. It's just a lot easier to believe you're doing it for the kids. You see this all the time.


Agree that for many this might be an excuse. But it's not always so black or white. After D-day, I was so emotional and desperate that there was no way I could make a rational decision. Then we were "reconciled." Years later, with not a shred of evidence that there has been any further marital impropriety, it's not so easy to blow up my little boy's world because I can't get past a 1.5-month long EA that happened 4.5 years ago. If I had been in the right state of mind at the time, I would have felt it was the right call. If I had evidence of any kind now, it would be the right call. But after this much time?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

totalfive21 said:


> Agree that for many this might be an excuse. But it's not always so black or white. After D-day, I was so emotional and desperate that there was no way I could make a rational decision. Then we were "reconciled." Years later, with not a shred of evidence that there has been any further marital impropriety, it's not so easy to blow up my little boy's world because I can't get past a 1.5-month long EA that happened 4.5 years ago. If I had been in the right state of mind at the time, I would have felt it was the right call. If I had evidence of any kind now, it would be the right call. But after this much time?


Do you think if it was a long term physical affair you would have been able to stay?


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you think if it was a long term physical affair you would have been able to stay?


I think being confronted with that knowledge would have made the decision to leave much more clear to me, even in the emotional state I was in. That's in part the problem of "degrees" of affairs. They are still betrayals though. In many ways EAs hurt more than just sex.

I should add that I don't have proof that it did NOT turn physical during that time. The whole proving a negative thing.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

totalfive21 said:


> I think being confronted with that knowledge would have made the decision to leave much more clear to me, even in the emotional state I was in. That's in part the problem of "degrees" of affairs. They are still betrayals though. In many ways EAs hurt more than just sex.
> 
> I should add that I don't have proof that it did NOT turn physical during that time. The whole proving a negative thing.


I agree there are degrees of affairs..all hurt but some are worse than others and some people cross more moral lines than others do...and LTA of multiple years being the worst...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> This can't be stressed enough. All to often, reconciliation results in the WS getting off "Scott Free" for their crime against the marriage. There has to be a price paid before reconciliation should take place.


Agreed..all Rs even under the best of circumstances allow the Ws to get away with it on some level...


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> They want to believe some random, 'magical fog' just blew in off the coast and encased their cheating spouse, causing them to behave in a way they normally never would.


You missed the part where I specifically said I wasn't justifying anything...  

Is an addiction, it's their responsibility, but still an addiction, and it's real, am not making that up to make myself feel any better at all...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> You missed the part where I specifically said I wasn't justifying anything...
> 
> Is an addiction, it's their responsibility, but still an addiction, and it's real, am not making that up to make myself feel any better at all...


I think you make an important point here..WSs have destructive tendencies..but they also seem to move on quicker than the Bs in most cases since they have a lot less to get over...if you notice many WSs are hypocrites on top of everything else and would leave if they roles were reversed..tha tis the part tham makes me sick to my stomach..their hypocrisy...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

totalfive21 said:


> I think being confronted with that knowledge would have made the decision to leave much more clear to me, even in the emotional state I was in. That's in part the problem of "degrees" of affairs. They are still betrayals though. * In many ways EAs hurt more than just sex.*
> 
> I should add that I don't have proof that it did NOT turn physical during that time. The whole proving a negative thing.


How so? i'm curious about why it would hurt you more than a physical affair...


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> How so? i'm curious about why it would hurt you more than a physical affair...


For some the physical aspects are the most painful, for others the emotional hurts more. In my case while the physical hurt me, her giving her "heart" to another and all the associated lying and betrayal hurt much more but that's me. Even in the beginning while I had some mind movies and hurt about her having sex the fact she became emotionally attached to the clown, pulled away from me all without a hint of "unhappiness" or willingness to change things bothered and hurt the most.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> For some the physical aspects are the most painful, for others the emotional hurts more. In my case while the physical hurt me, her giving her "heart" to another and all the associated lying and betrayal hurt much more but that's me. Even in the beginning while I had some mind movies and hurt about her having sex the fact she became emotionally attached to the clown, pulled away from me all without a hint of "unhappiness" or willingness to change things bothered and hurt the most.


That makes sense..i would think a PA combined with an Ea would be excruciating but an EA vs. PA I would think man would prefer an EA....but that is just my own view on things...what do other members think?


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That makes sense..i would think a PA combined with an Ea would be excruciating but an EA vs. PA I would think man would prefer an EA....but that is just my own view on things...what do other members think?


Absolutely soul crushing! 

My XWW had 1 1/2 year EA/PA. D Day #1, when I found out about the EA only, I was willing to R. I was angry and hurt by her lying but I felt I could get over it. At the time, she seemed remorseful so that helped greatly. I thought we were proceeding through R and I thought it was going well. 1 year later was D Day #2. This was when I discovered the EA was actually a PA and on-going. No remorse this time. I knew, deep inside that I couldn't live with the PA and stay married to her. Even though I didn't file immediately, I knew it was inevitable. I considered the Physical aspects of our relationship to be sacred. Not that the emotional was any less, but I could never forgive or forget a PA.

That was 2009 to 2012. I've been divorced for over 4 years now. I can't even begin to list all that I've lost as a result. The big things that come to mind are confidence and self esteem. I still don't have those back. As a result, I don't smile much either. I tried dating but I just can't get into it and I don't seem to be attracted to anyone anyway. I also don't trust most people...men or women, especially women. I avoid letting anyone to get to close to me emotionally.

I worry about the effects of divorce on my kids. My daughter is 16 and doesn't have a boyfriend...never has. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with that but is seems unusual especially because she is beautiful. We've had many talks and she is very honest with me. She say's she doesn't trust people and doesn't have faith in relationships or marriage. She also doesn't want to deal with the drama. She told me this is because of witnessing what her mother did to me and our family.

There's also the financial loss that will be with me forever. I have to work for many more years to recoup what I lost and retire with the lifestyle I wanted to.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

The long term effects of my ex wife's affair have been very different for each of us. We are 24 years out from that fateful day and the effects have been profound and long lasting. In fact, that event has so dramatically altered the trajectory of our lives that it's often hard for me to wrap my mind around it's entirety. Hind sight is very enlightening and I feel I can perceive cause and effect of our life's paths throughout the ensuing years. 

For the first decade my ex and her affair partner, turned husband, seemed to ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after. When their two kids entered puberty their marriage started to unravel. I can summarize by saying that karma caught up with the cheaters and unfortunately is spilling out upon their kids who are now in college. I don't stalk my ex in order to know these things, but am occasionally informed by friends who have known us since childhood. Even these acquaintances say it's obvious the root cause of their current disaster can be traced back to that infidelity long ago. Many of the horrific things in life are being manifested in their lives because of choices my ex made years ago. And it's obvious to us that it's not over yet, nor will be soon. 

As for me, the effects of her infidelity were catastrophic for at least three years. It was so bad that for years I constantly begged God to let me die. I hated my life and it's a mystery to me how I ever survived it. I don't have the words to describe this pain and I'm sure many others know it well. I wasn't even capable of dating for four years afterwards, but I did become a golfing buddy to a lady and slowly we began a relationship. We got married several years later and in hind sight I wasn't capable of marriage right up until we tied the knot. 

It took me several more years before I became myself again. I began to independently understand and internalize the true doctrine of infidelity, which in turn paved the way to profound change within myself. (A decade later I would discover TAM, which verified my conclusions about affairs and infidelity.) In the mean time I was gaining experience with a new wife and it was an awakening for me to experience what it was like to be married to an honest and fiercely loyal spouse. The contrast was exquisite. 

Today, I'm amazed at what a different man I am. I'm so much better than I ever could have been without my hellish experience. My wife loves and respects me, and I feel the same toward her and myself. I have my dignity, and that is one of the greatest gifts a person can have. I am compelled to say that the pure evil my ex inflicted upon me was the very catalyst that enabled me to become a vastly better man than I could have without that experience. I'm grateful for my test even if it severely maimed me and caused scars that haunt me even today. I am better for it, but my ex is not. I pity her, but rejoice for myself. Only in the last few years have I felt this way. 

Sorry for the rambling, but maybe somebody out there needs hope for their future.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Decimated said:


> My daughter is 16 and doesn't have a boyfriend...never has. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with that but is seems unusual especially because she is beautiful. We've had many talks and she is very honest with me. She say's she doesn't trust people and doesn't have faith in relationships or marriage. She also doesn't want to deal with the drama. She told me this is because of witnessing what her mother did to me and our family.


Being a child of divorce this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Has she had counseling? I would suggest asking her if she wanted some. It may be good for her. Also get her some books about marriage, and what to look for in a spouse. Also maybe some general marriage books here.

"Hey daughter, remember when you said you don't have faith in relationships. Well that makes me sad for you, there are still relationships that work, even though your mother and I didn't. How about tying to learn about relationships so you can do better then we did. Here I got you this book."

That is what I did, though it took me getting cheated on to get it but that was before I was married. At that point I started studying this stuff like any other skill. So far I have married well, so has 2 of my 3 sisters, the thirds boyfriend died before they got married and she never got married after that. Sad actually but non of us have been divorced. 

My point is she is wise to be weary. She learned a hard lesson before lots of kids her age do. It's true though, relationships are risky and require very carefully picking the right person. 

Anyway just my thoughts.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

commonsenseisn't said:


> I was gaining experience with a new wife and it was an awakening for me to experience what it was like to be married to an honest and fiercely loyal spouse. The contrast was exquisite.


I wish this could be pined to every "just found out" thread. I think this is the most valuable thing that SO MANY BS don't know. Their life have doesn't have to be this way. 

OP imagine what your life would have been like if you had got your wish all those years ago and got your ex-wife back. You would be her husband in the messed up marriage she has now. 

Congrats!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

After reading a lot on these boards, I have come to the conclusion that just like there are two types of people cheaters and non cheaters. There are also people who are going divorce their WS and people who are going to stay no matter what. It's in their nature. I don't think there is much of a decision process, I think it is more just what category you fit in. 

I am at the point where when you read the JFO threads I can tell from the first post if the BS is going to R. I doesn't even matter how heinous the affair is, or what else is found out. The WS could brake contact 50 times and if they decide they want to stay they will be forgiven. It's really the only the WS making the choice if the marriage survives or not. The real question is really only if the WS wants to stay in the marriage. I mean how many people who have moved on to have BETTER lives would have stayed in their broken marriage if they had been given the chance.

I suspect people who post on the boards are generally looking for help with staying so that is why most are the R type of person. People for whom staying with a cheater is not an option are not going to post thread about it, they are going to divorce and move on. All the stuff about I am still trying to decided is mostly the BS trying to get a handle on the affair and training their mind to live with it, not any real conflict about staying. I suspect the WS also knows that their BS is never going to leave them and is some ways this knowledge lets them cheat without as much fear.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I wish this could be pined to every "just found out" thread. I think this is the most valuable thing that SO MANY BS don't know. Their life have doesn't have to be this way.
> 
> OP imagine what your life would have been like if you had got your wish all those years ago and got your ex-wife back. You would be her husband in the messed up marriage she has now.
> 
> Congrats!


OMG....

He suffered divorced for 24 years. 24 years of "long term effects of an affair" that resulted in a divorce.

IF he had got his wish and his wife REPENTED he very well could have achieved a restored recovered marriage with much less "consequences" for him, his ex-wife, his children and those poor kids born to that affair marriage disaster. A recovered marriage is NOTHING like an affair marriage built upon a foundation of lies and tears of many. 

It doesn't sound like he had much choice in the matter {I'm not blaming him}. These were the natural consequences of his ex-wife's adultery, non-repentance and divorce.

I read his story as a warning to those newly betrayed spouses that maybe it's worth trying to reconcile versus 24 years of misery. That divorce isn't as easy as the {still married} "kick them to the curb" crowd constantly proposes here. Like commonsense ~ I'm a "different man" too. My wife loves and respects me and I feel the same toward her and myself. I have my dignity and can say that in spite of the "pure evil" my wife unleashed upon us, we have become vastly better persons than we could have without the experience. We aren't grateful for the test but it happened, it's over, she's repented and I've forgiven her. It's as far as the east from the west. I don't have scars and I'm not carrying around resentment. My kids are happy and thrilled they don't have step parents and half-siblings running around. We rejoice in our marriage and intact family and it didn't take us anywhere near 20 years to get to that point. 

The point to the thread ~ recovery, if you're lucky enough to get the opportunity and don't mess it up by sweeping it under the rug, is tough up front, surely, but the long term consequences are, in most situations, significantly less substantial. Significant enough to make TRYING to reconcile worth it in most situations.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> IF he had got his wish and his wife REPENTED he very well could have achieved a restored recovered marriage with much less "consequences" for him, his ex-wife, his children and those poor kids born to that affair marriage disaster. A recovered marriage is NOTHING like an affair marriage built upon a foundation of lies and tears of many.
> 
> It doesn't sound like he had much choice in the matter


Touched a nerve I see. I notice every time someone post about greener pastures you have to come on here and attack. Wonder why that is. Why do you keep trying to convince us how great you have it. That's not the point. 

He should thank God and his ex that she never gave him the chance to waste his life on her. She was never marriage materiel and still isn't obviously. After all that what you got out of that is he should have tried to R???


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I suspect people who post on the boards are generally looking for help with staying so that is why most are the R type of person. People for whom staying with a cheater is not an option are not going to post thread about it, they are going to divorce and move on. All the stuff about I am still trying to decided is mostly the BS trying to get a handle on the affair and training their mind to live with it, not any real conflict about staying. I suspect the WS also knows that their BS is never going to leave them and is some ways this knowledge lets them cheat without as much fear.


I've been saying this to you for months now. Your "kick them to the curb" "cheaters never change" "recovery never happens" rhetoric is not only baseless and naive, but it also falls on deaf ears on forums for just the reasons you state above. Instead, I try to meet them where they're at and give them stronger reconciliation advice that their WS will either "show their true colors" and reject, making the decision to divorce so much more apparent OR their WS actually gets on board with undertaking the process of actually doing what it takes to repent and restore the marriage. 

If the affair is still occurring, and, as you posit, they're hell bent of trying to recover no matter what you post, then why not push them to do all the necessary steps to bust up the affair {exposure, active resistance, snooping} because the alternative is LIMBO and such steps actually lead to the best recoveries no matter how rare you believe them to be. Plus, no matter how it turns out, there is empowerment in taking action. Even if that action even results in the WS getting mad, filing for divorce and riding off into the sunset with the affair partner, at least they did something and the advice lead to a resolution of the situation versus the empty wasted-breath and energy "divorce the cheater now" posts and "recovery never happen lie" that they don't and won't listen to anyway.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I've been saying this to you for months now. Your "kick them to the curb" "cheaters never change" "recovery never happens" rhetoric is not only baseless and naive, but it also falls on deaf ears on forums for just the reasons you state above. Instead, I try to meet them where they're at and give them stronger reconciliation advice that their WS will either "show their true colors" and reject, making the decision to divorce so much more apparent OR their WS actually gets on board with undertaking the process of actually doing what it takes to repent and restore the marriage.
> 
> If the affair is still occurring, and, as you posit, they're hell bent of trying to recover no matter what you post, then why not push them to do all the necessary steps to bust up the affair {exposure, active resistance, snooping} because the alternative is LIMBO and such steps actually lead to the best recoveries no matter how rare you believe them to be. Plus, no matter how it turns out, there is empowerment in taking action. Even if that action even results in the WS getting mad, filing for divorce and riding off into the sunset with the affair partner, at least they did something and the advice lead to a resolution of the situation versus the empty wasted-breath and energy "divorce the cheater now" posts and "recovery never happen lie" that they don't and won't listen to anyway.


It's really quite shocking to me how many people accept such heaps of abuses and are not only able to look at the person who did it but live their lives with them afterwords. I would have never believed it if I had not read about it. Marriage is like a trap for them. I guess this is so far from my nature that I had no idea it was so common.

Here is the thing you hate SI's R board and talk about how it is a wasteland and such but honestly that is where most of the BS that you are giving advice to are headed. That is R. Your wrong about my advice being "baseless and naive" it's the only advice that gives most of these people a chance to have the kind of life the once dreamed of and not that wasteland that you hate so much. They can work their ass of but they will still be married to the same crappy people. But you are right that it mostly falls on deaf ears, people want what they want. 

It's really all the same thing, it comes down to passivity. It attracts abusers and it also keeps people with them and stuck in abusive marriages.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Touched a nerve I see. I notice every time someone post about greener pastures you have to come on here and attack. Wonder why that is. Why do you keep trying to convince us how great you have it. That's not the point.


What? I'm not attacking commonsense at all. I'm happy he's found peace after all these years. I read his story and think there, but for the grace of God, was what could have happened to my family. I know you don't understand this because you've never been a betrayed husband and only know about infidelity from posting on a forum for one year, but one of the biggest long-term consequences of divorce is the wayward spouse STAYS wayward and unrepentant making everyone, including most ex-spouses, continual miserable forever.  Sure some ex-spouses repent and become bearable ex-spouses but that not typical. What commonsense witnessed with his ex is the norm. 



> He should thank God and his ex that she never gave him the chance to waste his life on her. She was never marriage materiel and still isn't obviously. After all that what you got out of that is he should have tried to R???


I don't know his whole back story so I can't speculate whether this particular ex-wife was worth it or not or "marriage material" or not. It was a tragic story about the long term consequences of adultery to multiple persons that didn't have to happen {adultery isn't inevitable}. In many other situations like this, recovery CAN and DOES happen but that ship has long sailed for commonsense and I'm not being critical of his story or situation at all. I PRESUMED he tried to or wanted to recover because you said he wished for it in your earlier post and because most men do try or want to recover initially {especially if kids are involved}. 

I wouldn't have commented at all if you hadn't tried to frame the story as some kind of absurd victory for your
divorce agenda. If commonsense thinks every betrayed husband should divorce, that's fine with me. Unlike you, he's actually been a betrayed husband so he's earned the right to the have and express the opinion. But his story is certainly not a selling point for divorce after infidelity IF it can be avoided AND the marriage restored {I'm not a marriage at all costs guy and recognize it takes two to recover}.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> What? I'm not attacking commonsense at all. I'm happy he's found peace after all these years. I read his story and think there, but for the grace of God, was what could have happened to my family. I know you don't understand this because you've never been a betrayed husband and only know about infidelity from posting on a forum for one year, but one of the biggest long-term consequences of divorce is the wayward spouse STAYS wayward and unrepentant making everyone, including most ex-spouses, continual miserable forever. Sure some ex-spouses repent and become bearable ex-spouses but that not typical. What commonsense witnessed with his ex is the norm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The man just said he new wife taught him what it was to have a great spouse and marriage. His is old wife is still broken mess and failing in her current marriage. You don't think that is a warning about staying with a broken spouse? Sounds like one to me, or more so it's a great selling point for finding better. 

Anyway you are way WAY to optimistic. This is an accurate picture of what R is like for most.

By the way your insecurity is showing again. Anyone who disagrees with you you try to limit their ability to speak (Unlike you, he's actually been a betrayed husband so he's earned the right to the have and express the opinion), that sounds like fear to me. That sentence is why I don't believe you are as sure about what you say as you try to let on. No one tries to silence people if they are sure they have the winning argument.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> It's really quite shocking to me how many people accept such heaps of abuses and are not only able to look at the person who did it but live their lives with them afterwords. I would have never believed it if I had not read about it. Marriage is like a trap for them. I guess this is so far from my nature that I had no idea it was so common.
> 
> Here is the thing you hate SI's R board and talk about how it is a wasteland and such but honestly that is where most of the BS that you are giving advice to are headed. That is R. Your wrong about my advice being "baseless and naive" it's the only advice that gives most of these people a chance to have the kind of life the once dreamed of and not that wasteland that you hate so much. They can work their ass of but they will still be married to the same crappy people. But you are right that it mostly falls on deaf ears, people want what they want.
> 
> It's really all the same thing, it comes down to passivity. It attracts abusers and it also keeps people with them and stuck in abusive marriages.



"heaps of abuses" is subjective and I understand your perspective, naive as it is. You don't have children yet, your foo is messed up, you're contemplating leaving your own wife because she won't have sex with you and you WISH you had the seemingly automatic biblical out that all us betrayed spouses had|have here. 

I've guided betrayed husbands through divorce after infidelity and through the recovery process and pray they all get the best in life, God willing. As you've said many times, their happiness needs to come from within, but I seek to help them achieve relational happiness too, divorced or recovered. 

Finally, "passivity" is giving up. I want betrayed spouses to fight for their families and marriages, not surrender and give up. Nobody was {or is} going to ever tell me my wife wasn't worth it. You say "people want what they want" like that's a bad thing whereas I respect people's choices to live their lives as they choose while walking along side them providing them with tools, input, experience and language to make those choices more apparent and more successful.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> "heaps of abuses" is subjective and I understand your perspective, naive as it is. You don't have children yet, your foo is messed up, you're contemplating leaving your own wife because she won't have sex with you and you WISH you had the seemingly automatic biblical out that all us betrayed spouses had|have here.


What is this nonsense? When did I say I was contemplating leaving my wife, or that we don't have sex? Are you nuts? You are the guy who is giving BS advice? Do you project this much in your meetings with them?

Seriously this is a new low even for you. That's pretty much all you got is personal attacks. You have in the past attacked my relationship with my father, my mothers relationship with my father, and now you attack my relationship with my wife. Your name truly is an oxymoron.

By the way I just reported you *******.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Admin Message*

Please folks, no more squabbling, OK?


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Folks, don't get yourselves worked up over my post. To arrive at such firm conclusions in an accurate manner you would need for me to flesh out my situation. Be aware that initially I thought my ex was a WAW and our divorce happened immediately. As our divorce was finalized I learned of the infidelity and at that point a switch flipped inside of me where I knew my dignity needed to be rescued. This is when I abandoned all hope or desire of saving the relationship and welcomed the divorce. 

In spite of desiring a divorce from a cheater, I still felt intense agony for a long time but knew I was better off without her. Now, many years later I am so glad I'm rid of her and I'm certain it was a Godsend to me. My general stance is some adulterous marriages are worth being saved, but only when the truest repentance is present. I feel the majority of infidelities should be rewarded with an immediate and non negotiable divorce. 

Because of my experience I can tell you that if my current wife cheated on me I would respond with an instant divorce and I would move on much easier than I did last time. I acknowledge that everyone is different and it's probably not wise to form a rigid protocol that applies the same to everyone for every circumstance. YMMV


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Finally, I did want to make note of the fact you've never experienced divorced either so selling it as some opportunity to "find better" is disingenuous too.



I experienced divorce twice through my Mother's marriage. Both times it was the best thing that ever happened to her in her circumstance. 

I have tried to ignore you insults and be the better man, as I know I am, but when you start with my relationship with my wife all bets are off now. 



Quality said:


> I tell betrayed husband's this fact ~~ you're going to be alright no matter which way this goes {divorce or recovery} whereas your wayward wife really only has one shot at future happiness and that's through the gift of repentance, forgiveness and restoration of her marriage with you. She had|has no biblical out and therefore, most certainly will never find happiness in any other relationship other than the one God's already provided her.


And if they disagree with you you probably personally insult them, like you have me over and over (most recently making up some sexless marriage wanting divorce nonsense), like you have Chumplady (calling her a cheater) many times, like you did the other poster when you try to say he was lying and was swamp-rat. How Christian of you. You're such a phony. By the way ever recruit anyone off of this board into your counseling business? Do you get paid for you counseling? Seems to me coming on here and providing some hope to desperate people would be good for business.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I experienced divorce twice through my Mother's marriage. Both times it was the best thing that ever happened to her in her circumstance.
> 
> I have tried to ignore you insults and be the better man, as I know I am, but when you start with my relationship with my wife all bets are off now.
> 
> ...



I respect that you do not want to talk about issues you may or may not be dealing with on this forum and I'm sorry I brought it up.

I have not and do not recruit anyone off this board {though I see people with links to their services so apparently it's not against the rules here}. 

I/we don't get paid or seek remuneration in any manner for my|our assistance. It's a ministry {not my personal ministry ~~ it's FREE ~ not personally seeking, requesting or accepting donations either}

I don't "sell" hope ~ hope just IS. 

Interesting angles.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator Message:-*

No more threadjacks, please.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Decimated said:


> Absolutely soul crushing!
> 
> My XWW had 1 1/2 year EA/PA. D Day #1, when I found out about the EA only, I was willing to R. I was angry and hurt by her lying but I felt I could get over it. At the time, she seemed remorseful so that helped greatly. I thought we were proceeding through R and I thought it was going well. 1 year later was D Day #2. This was when I discovered the EA was actually a PA and on-going. No remorse this time. I knew, deep inside that I couldn't live with the PA and stay married to her. Even though I didn't file immediately, I knew it was inevitable. I considered the Physical aspects of our relationship to be sacred. Not that the emotional was any less, but I could never forgive or forget a PA.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. Infidelity not only touched you but your kids as well. It is amazing that such a vicious selfish choice resonates not only across the years but across generations. I've know many, many children of infidelity and it seemed to effect them all. It hink we ook at our parents as rocks of certainty when we are growing up and by doing what they did it shatters that. Is your daughter in counseling? The poor kid does not deserve ot miss out on love and reltionships becuase of a sh!tty parent...

I know a friend who is going through the financial thing - he paid alimony and th ewife had her boyfriend living wiht her and the kids...she dared him to prove it. Nice huh? He did not have th emoney to hire a lawyer and investigators so he had to suck it up and pay until she married the new guy.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

commonsenseisn't said:


> As for me, the effects of her infidelity were catastrophic for at least three years. It was so bad that for years I constantly begged God to let me die. I hated my life and it's a mystery to me how I ever survived it. I don't have the words to describe this pain and I'm sure many others know it well. I wasn't even capable of dating for four years afterwards, but I did become a golfing buddy to a lady and slowly we began a relationship. We got married several years later and in hind sight I wasn't capable of marriage right up until we tied the knot.
> 
> It took me several more years before I became myself again. I began to independently understand and internalize the true doctrine of infidelity, which in turn paved the way to profound change within myself. (A decade later I would discover TAM, which verified my conclusions about affairs and infidelity.) In the mean time I was gaining experience with a new wife and it was an awakening for me to experience what it was like to be married to an honest and fiercely loyal spouse. The contrast was exquisite.
> 
> ...





commonsenseisn't said:


> Folks, don't get yourselves worked up over my post. To arrive at such firm conclusions in an accurate manner you would need for me to flesh out my situation. Be aware that initially I thought my ex was a WAW and our divorce happened immediately. As our divorce was finalized I learned of the infidelity and at that point a switch flipped inside of me where I knew my dignity needed to be rescued. This is when I abandoned all hope or desire of saving the relationship and welcomed the divorce.
> 
> In spite of desiring a divorce from a cheater, I still felt intense agony for a long time but knew I was better off without her. Now, many years later I am so glad I'm rid of her and I'm certain it was a Godsend to me. My general stance is some adulterous marriages are worth being saved, but only when the truest repentance is present. I feel the majority of infidelities should be rewarded with an immediate and non negotiable divorce.
> 
> Because of my experience I can tell you that if my current wife cheated on me I would respond with an instant divorce and I would move on much easier than I did last time. I acknowledge that everyone is different and it's probably not wise to form a rigid protocol that applies the same to everyone for every circumstance. YMMV


Sorry for your pain as well..but I'm glad you found a new lady and your ex wife seems to be getting some justice. But she is not your problem anymore - in fact next time your friends tell you about her stop them and tell them she is irrelevant and her life is of no consequence to you. The thing about an unrepentant cheater is their ultimate punishment is living with that person in the mirror every day. Do you think your horrible first marriage helped you to appreciate your current wife even more? Sometimes being in the valley makes being on the mountain peak even nicer...


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The thing about an unrepentant cheater is their ultimate punishment is living wiht that person in the mirror every day. Do you think your horrible first marriage helped you to appreciate your current wife even more? Sometimes being in the valley makes being on the mountain peak even nicer...


QFT. I'm told she is miserable with herself and is now all alone and has nobody to blame except who she sees in the mirror. 

Yes, my first marriage is a sharp contrast to my second and I am thankful for that because I feel my eyes have been opened and I enjoy (literally rejoice) my comprehension of the subject. How could I recognize what it's like to be on the mountain peak if I've never walked through the valley of despair? I cherish this knowledge and insight more than most everything I've ever learned. Another long term effect from my experience is I've attained an extraordinary level of confidence and trust in myself, along with a conviction that I've met the worst that life can throw at me and still prevailed. I know very little fear now days. I'm a lucky guy.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

commonsenseisn't said:


> QFT. I'm told she is miserable with herself and is now all alone and has nobody to blame except who she sees in the mirror.
> 
> Yes, my first marriage is a sharp contrast to my second and I am thankful for that because I feel my eyes have been opened and I enjoy (literally rejoice) my comprehension of the subject. How could I recognize what it's like to be on the mountain peak if I've never walked through the valley of despair? I cherish this knowledge and insight more than most everything I've ever learned. Another long term effect from my experience is I've attained an extraordinary level of confidence and trust in myself, along with a conviction that I've met the worst that life can throw at me and still prevailed. I know very little fear now days. I'm a lucky guy.


Perhaps that is one of the "positives" for the BS who bravely jumps into the unknown and starts life anew - they become aware of how strong and courageous they truly are. If they rid themselves of the pain but hold the lessons close they can become a better person. Relying on oneself and getting through the absolute worst life can throw at you truly shows us what we are made of on the inside. Perhaps for many one of the long term effects of infidelity on the BS is the discovery or rediscovery of what an amazing person they are! What do you think?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

commonsenseisn't said:


> Another long term effect from my experience is I've attained an extraordinary level of confidence and trust in myself, along with a conviction that I've met the worst that life can throw at me and still prevailed.


The aftermath for me was the same. To me that is the best you can get out of such an awful thing. Learn that if you can make it through that you can make it through anything.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> The aftermath for me was the same. To me that is the best you can get out of such an awful thing. Learn that if you can make it through that you can make it through anything.


No one wants turmoil and tragedy in their lives but when it is foisted upon them it does show them what they are made of...do they roll over and take it or do they take charge and make it through..I admire survivors...some get knocked down at first and take awhile to get up but they eventually do get up - everyone has their own timeline...


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Perhaps that is one of the "positives" for the BS who bravely jumps into the unknown and starts life anew - they become aware of how strong and courageous they truly are. If they rid themselves of the pain but hold the lessons close they can become a better person. Relying on oneself and getting through the absolute worst life can throw at you truly shows us what we are made of on the inside. Perhaps for many one of the long term effects of infidelity on the BS is the discovery or rediscovery of what an amazing person they are! What do you think?


You are correct. At the time I didn't consider myself to be brave or strong, I could barely function. Now looking back I see something remarkable that forged a new person out of myself. It took me longer than average to lose the pain, but today I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. I wouldn't volunteer to endure another infidelity episode, but if it happened I would survive just fine. I don't consider myself to be a superior man, just superior to what I was or what I would have been without my experience. 

My experience has defined who I am and I like what I see in the mirror. However, I'm not oblivious to my faults and weaknesses, I keep a tight rein upon myself to make sure I am a good spouse, friend, etc. Any one of us could slip up no matter how good we think we are. It's my hope that all the newly betrayed could get a snapshot of these possibilities so they may be encouraged to forge ahead in either reconciliation or divorce.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

commonsenseisn't said:


> You are correct. At the time I didn't consider myself to be brave or strong, I could barely function. Now looking back I see something remarkable that forged a new person out of myself. It took me longer than average to lose the pain, but today I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. I wouldn't volunteer to endure another infidelity episode, but if it happened I would survive just fine. I don't consider myself to be a superior man, just superior to what I was or what I would have been without my experience.
> 
> My experience has defined who I am and I like what I see in the mirror. However, I'm not oblivious to my faults and weaknesses, I keep a tight rein upon myself to make sure I am a good spouse, friend, etc. Any one of us could slip up no matter how good we think we are. It's my hope that all the newly betrayed could get a snapshot of these possibilities so they may be encouraged to forge ahead in either reconciliation or divorce.


That is great to hear -your timeline for healing is your own and the thing is you made it to the other side and are a better man for it. You evolved and your XW did not. You said she is now all alone - is she divorced or separated? It also made you aware of your own weaknesses and ot keep an eye on them - another positive. I'm glad you forged a new and better you!


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is great to hear -your timeline for healing is your own and the thing is you made it to the other side and are a better man for it. You evolved and your XW did not. You said she is now all alone - is she divorced or separated? It also made you aware of your own weaknesses and ot keep an eye on them - another positive. I'm glad you forged a new and better you!


I'm told she's been separated for several years and they are putting off the divorce until the youngest finishes high school. At least she learned how severely betrayal/divorce can affect other family members. Back when we divorced it was so traumatic to her father (he and I had been very close) that when she married her affair partner he (her father) suffered a massive heart attack. He had been fervently hoping we would reconcile, but when she remarried he knew it was past the point of no return and it was too much for him. His heart was pretty much ruined at age 52 and he recently died from the long term effects from it. I imagine my ex has some guilt over it. Cheaters have no clue how severely they can affect others for generations to come. It's sobering to contemplate.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> This can't be stressed enough. All to often, reconciliation results in the WS getting off "Scott Free" for their crime against the marriage. There has to be a price paid before reconciliation should take place.


Me and my pop didn't really have a great relationship. He was not a good parent. But he was

a great teacher. He drilled into me... accountability, responsibility, respect.

In the last 25 years, that has become a lost art.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

commonsenseisn't said:


> I'm told she's been separated for several years and they are putting off the divorce until the youngest finishes high school. At least she learned how severely betrayal/divorce can affect other family members. Back when we divorced it was so traumatic to her father (he and I had been very close) that when she married her affair partner he (her father) suffered a massive heart attack. He had been fervently hoping we would reconcile, but when she remarried he knew it was past the point of no return and it was too much for him. His heart was pretty much ruined at age 52 and he recently died from the long term effects from it. I imagine my ex has some guilt over it. Cheaters have no clue how severely they can affect others for generations to come. It's sobering to contemplate.


I feel for her dad and her children but her and her STBXH are getting exactly what they deserve. I have no doubt his or her eye wandered again. I NEVER feel bad for a cheater who gets cheated on - when peeople say no one deserves to get cheated on - well that is not true - cheaters do. 

Infidelity does not just mean cheating on your spouse but your WHOLE family - cheaters dont get thiss because they are caught up in their own selfishness. Read some cheaters on other forums and their selfishness shines through -- even the ones supposedly in R. All you need to know is some cheaters spend time debating when they can put f (as in former) in front of the letters WS. Think about that one - they just demolished their family and they are worried about themselves once again. SMH.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Chuck71 said:


> Me and my pop didn't really have a great relationship. He was not a good parent. But he was
> 
> a great teacher. He drilled into me... accountability, responsibility, respect.
> 
> In the last 25 years, that has become a lost art.


QFT It is a lost art unfortunately.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

commonsenseisn't said:


> As our divorce was finalized I learned of the infidelity and at that point a switch flipped inside of me where I knew my dignity needed to be rescued. This is when I abandoned all hope or desire of saving the relationship and welcomed the divorce.


Again, how did you do this? Snooping after separation and the divorce nearly finalized gets really difficult so any tips you can offer will help. I'm always telling betrayed spouses to snoop early on and get all the facts first while they are still available and {BEFORE having the big confrontation if they can help it} because it's often so hard to get the facts later on. NOT having the truth about one's life {whether the betrayed spouse recovers or ends up divorced} is often more anxiety and regret ridden than just knowing what really went on. In other words, not ever having the truth about your life might be a consequence of adultery ~ moreso if you divorce. 

Did you have kids with your ex-wife? Was she able to gaslight and deny her way to a pretty advantageous settlement for herself prior to you discovering the affair, when, I presume, it was already too late to really go back and start the negotiations over??

TRUTH ~ is often one of the advantages of trying to reconcile for even a little while versus blowing the whole thing up and throwing the cheater to the curb without documented absolute irrefutable proof {enough to convince your children 10-20 years down the road}. While "trying" you are typically still in contact with them and able to acquire evidence moreso than if you had "ghosted them". Plus, seeming willingness to attempt to recover despite known and documented infidelity, at the very least, even if you end up choosing to divorce later, models a willingness to extend forgiveness in the fact of huge disrespect and betrayal. 

In other words, a long-term consequence of adultery, particularly, unknown and undiscovered adultery after a divorce will LIKELY include a lot more blame and responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage coming from your ex-spouse {for sure - a known liar with a vested interest in blaming you}, your kids, family and even yourself for years to come.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Quality said:


> Again, how did you do this? Snooping after separation and the divorce nearly finalized gets really difficult so any tips you can offer will help. I'm always telling betrayed spouses to snoop early on and get all the facts first while they are still available and {BEFORE having the big confrontation if they can help it} because it's often so hard to get the facts later on. NOT having the truth about one's life {whether the betrayed spouse recovers or ends up divorced} is often more anxiety and regret ridden than just knowing what really went on. In other words, not ever having the truth about your life might be a consequence of adultery ~ moreso if you divorce.


I was completely blindsided with what initially appeared to be a walk away wife. She was such a coward that she ghosted me for weeks and then only communicated through letters and her divorce lawyer. I beat myself up thinking it was all my fault and I must have been a horrible husband to cause this. Several months later a friend informed me she was with another guy and then it all became clear. I was able to connect the dots just by remembering her behavior during our last two months together. 

That was enough proof for me and I fully trusted my gut feeling and I had a strong sense of the need to preserve my dignity. I knew I would never accept an offer of reconciliation if it ever came, plus I knew that I had been unfair to myself in my initial judgement and for now on I would not allow a spouse to define what caliber of person I am. 

I feel too many betrayed's allow themselves to get too wrapped up in having to find every shred of evidence of betrayal in order to feel justified on pulling the trigger on a divorce. It really amounts to excessive emotional gymnastics to get bogged down in this trap. Where there is smoke there is fire and a person should not necessarily feel they have to "prove" infidelity as much as we see here on TAM. 

Bottom line, trust the gut, it rarely lies.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

commonsenseisn't said:


> I was completely blindsided with what initially appeared to be a walk away wife. She was such a coward that she ghosted me for weeks and then only communicated through letters and her divorce lawyer. I beat myself up thinking it was all my fault and I must have been a horrible husband to cause this. Several months later a friend informed me she was with another guy and then it all became clear. I was able to connect the dots just by remembering her behavior during our last two months together.
> 
> That was enough proof for me and I fully trusted my gut feeling and I had a strong sense of the need to preserve my dignity. I knew I would never accept an offer of reconciliation if it ever came, plus I knew that I had been unfair to myself in my initial judgement and for now on I would not allow a spouse to define what caliber of person I am.
> 
> ...




I don't bring this up to accuse you of any wrongdoing, it just struck me as odd how your story had changed a little from when you first got here on TAM back in 2014. I wasn't data mining all your posts, but just read the only thread you started to see your backstory. Lots of legitimate posters slightly alter their fact patterns for a number of reasons and I don't mean to pick at any old wounds because it sounds like you had a really hard time dealing with your betrayal and divorce for a long time but I just wonder which version of the story is more true??

Here's what you posted Sept 29, 2014:



commonsenseisn't said:


> Yep, I did. Someday I'll tell the story. Suffice it to say my ex wife was a WAW with a secret affair partner, but then she immediately married another guy the day our divorce was final.
> 
> I was gaslighted into thinking it was all my fault that she was a WAW in the first place. I spent 18 years beating myself up thinking I caused her to be a WAW. I was absolutely brutal on myself. I finally know now that it was all her fault.
> 
> I started to lurk on tam several years ago and after learning all about this subject I realized the truth. Was able to verify it with a little investigation. But that's another story.


I hope for your sake the newer version is closer to the truth and her marrying OM immediately after your divorce was finalized was certainly a pretty big clue you'd been played, but I'm guessing, until you read on TAM you didn't investigate and find out FOR SURE they were in a previous relationship when things went south and your ex-wife made it all your fault and she probably spent the next 18 years keeping her story to herself while continuing to make the divorce all about "he was so controlling", "he had anger issues", _______, ________ and "omg, he looked at porn". I just guessing you spent 18 years being blamed for the breakup/divorce and taking it because you didn't feel comfortably voicing your legitimate suspicions to the mother of your children because you couldn't prove it and she'd just deny it anyway making you look even more mean, anger laden and vindictive. It's such a trap.

Man, I dislike your reprobate ex-wife. Sometimes I really have a hard time getting betrayed husband's to snoop on their wives. They are so scared of messing up and making the situation worse {or they just fear they'll verify something they don't want to actually verify}.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

commonsenseisn't said:


> I was completely blindsided with what initially appeared to be a walk away wife. She was such a coward that she ghosted me for weeks and then only communicated through letters and her divorce lawyer. I beat myself up thinking it was all my fault and I must have been a horrible husband to cause this. Several months later a friend informed me she was with another guy and then it all became clear. I was able to connect the dots just by remembering her behavior during our last two months together.
> 
> That was enough proof for me and I fully trusted my gut feeling and I had a strong sense of the need to preserve my dignity. I knew I would never accept an offer of reconciliation if it ever came, plus I knew that I had been unfair to myself in my initial judgement and for now on I would not allow a spouse to define what caliber of person I am.
> 
> ...


I too was completely blindsided, when she left she just left a note saying she couldn't forgive me for "everything". No prior warning of problems in our marriage. I spent a couple weeks beating myself up, blaming myself and racking my brain as to what she meant by everything. I had no idea what happened or what she thought was happening. My gut told me she must be seeing someone but my emotional heart told me I failed her somehow so I let my heart override my brain.

Took about a month and my best friend found out who she was seeing, where they were shacking up and the details and told me what he found out. To this day she has never admitted an affair, she even lied in court about the affair despite the OM giving a deposition to it. It was the worst kept secret in this small town. She will go to her grave with the secret everyone knows I guess.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Quality said:


> I don't bring this up to accuse you of any wrongdoing, it just struck me as odd how your story had changed a little from when you first got here on TAM back in 2014. I wasn't data mining all your posts, but just read the only thread you started to see your backstory. Lots of legitimate posters slightly alter their fact patterns for a number of reasons and I don't mean to pick at any old wounds because it sounds like you had a really hard time dealing with your betrayal and divorce for a long time but I just wonder which version of the story is more true??.


Yep, good eye you got there. I've kept to generalizations for brevity's sake. This will help clarify: Wife became a little distant, started fights, withheld affection, etc. At the time I did not recognize these classic signs of infidelity. This goes on for approximately 2-3 months. We had returned to college at this time and she became friends with a male classmate who was my age, 33, divorced and shared a couple of classes with her since they had the same major, PE, coaching athletics. 

As we were nearing the end of winter semester she was spending time with him studying for classes. Initially the study sessions were on campus but unbeknownst to me progressively migrate to his apartment. Hindsight shows he was grooming her for the seduction. He uses flattery and compliments because she is an international class athlete who happens to thrive on validation, etc. She was getting more distant and I got the ILYBNILWY speech. 

About four weeks before final exams she came home very upset and informed me her "friend" was in the emergency room. At this point I'm all gullible and a classic nice guy so we went to the hospital to check on our buddy. We asked him what the problem was and got ambiguous answers, but he mentioned doctor gave him charcoal. I'm not entirely stupid and suspected he overdosed on some kind of drug. The guy recovers and is back in classes with my wife after a couple days. Wife seemed "relieved." 

Another week or so went by and wife came home later than usual from school and was extremely upset, crying, won't tell me anything. She was very aloof to me and appeared to be having some kind of an emotional breakdown. I tried to comfort her and she was completely walled off. Was severe. I knew without a doubt that something had happened. Months later I was convinced this was when they consummated their emotional affair and when she got home she realized what she had done. It is especially significant because when we married we made very specific vows of sexual fidelity and our theology emphasizes this. 

In the last week or two of the semester she was completely detached from me and was still acting like she's having some kind of a breakdown. I tried my best to comfort, reassure, apologize, whatever I can do to stabilize her. In hindsight I realized she was trying to chart a course and was probably going to run off with OM. She would have undoubtedly known that I would instantly divorce her when I learned of her adultery, so she might as well try to start over with the OM. She would have also been having intense turmoil in context of the moral code she was given by her parents and religion. 

And if all this wasn't enough she came home several days before final exams began and informed me that the OM had been found dead and cause of death was undetermined. She was beside herself with grief and it occurred to me that she was acting as if a close family member had died instead of a classmate. I comforted her best I could and after a couple of hours she seemed to become resolute and totally detached from everyone and everything. She ghosted me from here on out and then became a WAW when she completed her final exam. I learned several months later from a police report that the OM died from prescription sedative overdose. 

She disappeared and only communicated through a divorce lawyer. I later learned she had another OM within a couple of weeks and he closely replicated the guy who died. I had known this guy who was also a divorcee my age and it became common knowledge he aggressively pursued her. When I learned this I was able to connect all the dots and I knew she had gone past the point of no return. She merely replaced the first OM with another, hence the confusion of my previous posts. They married as soon as our divorce was final. I had already instinctively been forcing myself to welcome the divorce because I just knew something was "off" and I knew I had to rescue my dignity. 

Hindsight has an odd way of being more clear and as I formed a picture of what had really happened I just knew to trust my intuition. As truth trickled in over the course of months and years my conclusions were validated. Much of my pain over the years was in mourning the loss of what was initially a good marriage and a good wife. I loved her unconditionally and though she betrayed me, I still mourned for her for many years. It has been like being forced to witness a slow motion train wreck knowing full well the people you love are destined for years of misery.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

commonsenseisn't said:


> Yep, good eye you got there. I've kept to generalizations for brevity's sake. This will help clarify: Wife became a little distant, started fights, withheld affection, etc. At the time I did not recognize these classic signs of infidelity. This goes on for approximately 2-3 months. We had returned to college at this time and she became friends with a male classmate who was my age, 33, divorced and shared a couple of classes with her since they had the same major, PE, coaching athletics.
> 
> As we were nearing the end of winter semester she was spending time with him studying for classes. Initially the study sessions were on campus but unbeknownst to me progressively migrate to his apartment. Hindsight shows he was grooming her for the seduction. He uses flattery and compliments because she is an international class athlete who happens to thrive on validation, etc. She was getting more distant and I got the ILYBNILWY speech.
> 
> ...



You sound like a good man. I am sorry you ended up with better. People have to live with their choices. I would suspect that if she really thinks about it cheating on you basically ruined her life. Ahh but most are not that introspective.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@commonsenseisn't your XW sounds like a twisted human being...like I posted earlier her punishment is living with herself...I'm glad you had the courage to move on and make a better life for yourself...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You sound like a good man. I am sorry you ended up with better. People have to live with their choices. I would suspect that if she really thinks about it cheating on you basically ruined her life. Ahh but most are not that introspective.


Many people can have better lives with a bit of courage and a sense of the future being wide open to them...why settle for less? But sadly many do....


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Quality said:


> I hope for your sake the newer version is closer to the truth and her marrying OM immediately after your divorce was finalized was certainly a pretty big clue you'd been played, but I'm guessing, until you read on TAM you didn't investigate and find out FOR SURE they were in a previous relationship when things went south and your ex-wife made it all your fault and she probably spent the next 18 years keeping her story to herself while continuing to make the divorce all about "he was so controlling", "he had anger issues", _______, ________ and "omg, he looked at porn". I just guessing you spent 18 years being blamed for the breakup/divorce and taking it because you didn't feel comfortably voicing your legitimate suspicions to the mother of your children because you couldn't prove it and she'd just deny it anyway making you look even more mean, anger laden and vindictive. It's such a trap..


And here's the special brand of hell she put me through ... I was able to discern relatively soon afterwards that she had betrayed me with the second guy. Her immediate remarriage made it obvious. But the first guy who died from the overdose ... I was in limbo for years afterwards about him. TAM helped me conclude what the real story was about her initial betrayal. I am comfortable in my conclusions even without solid proof. And you are exactly correct about how she blameshifted everything upon me.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

I've posted about my late uncle a few times... mainly when my mom was having to deal with him. He would yell and cuss at her, try to even hit her. God he was angry. I told mom to be careful, I knew it wouldn't look good for me KOing a 74 y/o elderly man.

This man was born in the late 30s. Both of his older sisters never went to HS, uncle did one day and never went back. This was post-WW2 in the South. A HS education was not needed unless you were going to be a "professional." And women were M and a mom very often, way before 18. Uncle was a nice, gentle, hard working man. He met his W2B in their teens, were M soon after.

They both worked, saved money.... and waited to have children until they were financially sound (WTF? in the 60s?). Kids came, W was SAHM, uncle went to higher paying job to compensate lost wages. Things were good.... they bought a home and had mortgage under $75 month (not a typo). Somewhere around the early 70's... something changed.

Uncle was put on 2nds so his W was the "major" disciplinarian. She would let the kids run wild. Uncle's two boys... were huffing gas / paint by junior high. Uncle told W she needs to reign in the kids or she can go back to work and he will get day shift again (lower pay). Kids told uncle if they misbehaved, mom wouldn't let us eat dinner. W is chewed out by uncle, W beats the living crap out of the two boys.

Uncle and W have it out frequently. Uncle drinks. Uncle always drank, but not drink to forget. His W would get a day job in the summer (uncle was on 2nds) and quit as soon as the kids went back to school. Head scratches huh? The kids would run "buck wild" while the W had a female friend over "getting frisky."

By this time.... the home was so much in chaos.... anytime uncle tried to re-set boundaries with kids -you just wait until I am 18, I'm outta here- All three were...but not for long. Hard for any of them to have a permanent address when they couldn't keep a job. Uncle and W now both drank, W was given pills by her boys so she wouldn't tell uncle on them.

They did eventually D. Course she still slithered over with hopes of renewal. Y'know... if she was behind on her rent, car payment, etc. Today.... two of his kids are dead. Both overdosed, one before uncle's death, the other a year after his death. The other... he lives with his mom. He's not far from 60.

Back to uncle. Uncle became a raging alcoholic the last 40 years of his life. Mom helped take care of him his last few years. Mom would get so PO'd at him drinking. I sat her down and explained.... the man has nothing.... the only time his kids come around is when they want something (and the boys would beat uncle up if he didn't give them what they wanted), his XW.... (mom know what she was)... all uncle wanted was his family back. When it all comes down to it.... family is all you have. Every time he tries to get them together or they use him, what happens?

Mom understood it better..... Those four people were his life. Look how they treat him. THAT's why he drinks. -Mom I'm not saying I agree with what uncle did but I sure as he!! understand it- Mom understood it better when I told her -mom when you are gone, I have no family-

Uncle allowed everything to happen. What if uncle took charge of the household back in the early 60s... how different would it have been? His W is lower than cow dung for what she did / allowed and uncle was a co-conspirator for allowing it. Maybe uncle didn't know until it was too far out of hand. 

I would sit with uncle his last year alive... I never preached at him about the beer. He's almost 75.... and he needed someone to just listen. He's had preaching banged at him enough. -All I wanted was all five of us back together- Then he catches himself, one son was already gone. Tears would flow.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> Took about a month and my best friend found out who she was seeing, where they were shacking up and the details and told me what he found out. To this day she has never admitted an affair, she even lied in court about the affair despite the OM giving a deposition to it. It was the worst kept secret in this small town. She will go to her grave with the secret everyone knows I guess.


Your XW wants to keep the affair secret so she can hide the fact about the true nature of her current relationship and the despicable way in which it began. My friends XW is doing the same thing - she married her OM and acts like they are forming their own version of the Waltons. All cheaters read the same how to manual it seems - whether they R or not. I think their manual has chapters on both R and D. Here's to hoping your XW gets what she so richly deserves.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

commonsenseisn't said:


> And here's the special brand of hell she put me through ... I was able to discern relatively soon afterwards that she had betrayed me with the second guy. Her immediate remarriage made it obvious. But the first guy who died from the overdose ... I was in limbo for years afterwards about him. TAM helped me conclude what the real story was about her initial betrayal. I am comfortable in my conclusions even without solid proof. And you are exactly correct about how she blameshifted everything upon me.



wow what an awful story - your XW is really a twisted person....you dodged a bullet not growing old with her...if she is getting divorced again she is not cut out for marriage or being a decent person it seems...her STBXH #2 is hopefully just as miserable as she is because he is no innocent victim..


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> wow what an awful story - your XW is really a twisted person....you dodged a bullet not growing old with her...if she is getting divorced again she is not cut out for marriage or being a decent person it seems...her STBXH #2 is hopefully just as miserable as she is because he is no innocent victim..


Absolutely correct. He is an accomplice and they deserve each other, yet they separated a few years ago. Her parents despised him for pursuing her in a predatory manner and they never accepted him thereafter. When they married her parents were ashamed at what was obviously the beginning of a dishonorable marriage. 

A long term after effect of the ordeal is her parents lived the rest of their lives with guilt for all the relatively minor things they did to cause friction between us. Like me, they blamed themselves for things they shouldn't have. They both died this last year and she let them go to their graves not knowing about OM #1. 

Yet another after effect of her betrayal is her two children are born of a dishonorable union which by it's very nature brings a toxic dynamic into the family. Those poor kids will never know what will hit them from the long term fallout. The daughter, who is a senior in high school this year got engaged to be married half way through the school year and the odds are very high she is not mature enough and her marriage will ultimately fail. 

And just to show how selfish and cowardly my ex is, she plunged into relationship with OM #2 knowing that six days after she did her WAW trick my dad was diagnosed with Lou Gehrig disease at age 54. He died grieving what had become of us. My parents loved her and treated her like a queen. I'll never forgive her for what she did to my folks.

Long term effects of affairs can be brutal to even yet unborn generations.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

commonsenseisn't said:


> Absolutely correct. He is an accomplice and they deserve each other, yet they separated a few years ago. Her parents despised him for pursuing her in a predatory manner and they never accepted him thereafter. When they married her parents were ashamed at what was obviously the beginning of a dishonorable marriage.
> *
> A long term after effect of the ordeal is her parents lived the rest of their lives with guilt for all the relatively minor things they did to cause friction between us. * Like me, they blamed themselves for things they shouldn't have. They both died this last year and she let them go to their graves not knowing about OM #1.
> 
> ...


Your post illustrates that infidelity involves WAY more than just betraying your spouse. Anyone who argues ot the contrary is foolish. Her parents, her kids and you all suffered for what? So she could be "happy" - which is cheater speak for "I want what I want and I dont care who gets hurt" - anytime a wayward talks about "fulfillment" and such bullsh!t preceding their affair I just look at that as their way to camouflage thair recklessness, selfishness and their complete and utter disregard for the well being of others. The affair was not just between the cheater and their spouse but the WHOLE family. Unless your XW gets lots of help and changes, which at this point I doubt, her agony will never end. I wonder how many cheaters even those in R, truly rid themselves of that nasty selfishness.


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