# Husband leaving, not sure if I want to divorce



## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi Everyone.

Two weeks ago my husband and I had a very intense fight. He grabbed my arms and squeezed so tight, it left bruises. My daughter called 911 and the police showed up. No talking for a few days, being very low key with each other and I slept on the couch. Very confused and in disbelief. Married almost 3 years and nothing like this has happened prior. We have had problems communication as in, when we have disagreements, they don't seem to get resolved. But when it's good, it's really good. He is sweet and I love him very much.

I asked via email to him if I could stay in the house, refi and be the sole title holder. He wrote back yes, that he would find a place. I was kind of hoping he would say something like, I don't want to break up, let's work it out, but he didn't. He found a place and pretty much all his stuff is gone.

I'm going back and forth...wishing he was here and then relieved that he is gone. We don't have kids together so no ties there. I know if I was in trouble or needed help, he would be there in a heart beat.

One minute I'm thinking maybe we can work it out. Then I'm thinking that we can't. I don't want to go through this. I don't want to be married to him but yet, I do. Even if I wanted to reconcile, which half the time I do, I don't know how he would feel about that. He's not a talk about feelings type of guy.

Who is in charge for making the first move towards reconciliation? My instinct is to lay low and let him come to a decision himself. Maybe by then my feelings won't be so scrambled. I'm still in shock that he hurt me. Does anger management therapy ever work? All I'm reading is that anger escalates. I'm wondering who was that when he was like that. I don't ever want to see that again.


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## Country Apple (Nov 7, 2010)

Two weeks into separation and your already talking about divorce! I think it really takes time for your head to stop being confused and for you to really understand what you want. I went through the same thing and only after a month of seperation was my head clear enough to see the picture for what it is and to understand what I want. This is not the time for you to make these big decisions. 

While the fight is very concerning it really shows that there is something wrong in your marriage. I don't know what your problems are but it doesn't have to be the end unless you both want it to be. If you want reconciliation you have to realize what you were doing before didn't work and things need to change in your marriage. Counciling and soul searching may reveal the way.

If you decide to reconcile then you don't need to wait for him. Tell him how you feel and give him several days to think about it. Don't put pressure on him to answer right away even though you are dying to have a solution to the situation. 

Try to use your separation as a way to reevaluate your marriage and what you want. Consider going to counciling or reading some relationship books. Sometimes they really help. Good luck!


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

I do tend to think ahead. Uncertainty is very uncomfortable to me. Seeing him packing up his stuff, really hard. He was here today packing some things from the shed. He's about done getting his stuff.

I went out to the shed and he is doing talking lite, about the weather, about anything that isn't too emotional. I told him I still love him very much and that he is my best friend. I said I'm hopeful we can work through this. He gave me a big hug and kissed my cheek. He said he would talk to someone, a counselor. I told him I'd give him some time to figure out what he wants and I will. I know he loves me but I don't know if we can resolve what got us to this point. He can be neglectful, I've been reading the fascinating womanhood book and trying the suggestions, it's a great book. I also have been reading the marriage builder site. We even did the emotional needs surveys and exchanged those. That was about a month or so ago.

I've been trying to pull him back into the marriage. Neglect is the number one reason women file for divorce. I was feeling like we are no more than roommates.

The fight happened because he left town for the weekend to go visit a friend that has a ranch and he was helping put up siding on a barn. He asked me if it would be ok to go and I said, yes, that's fine, if I can smoke in the house while he was gone. He said, I'd rather you didn't. I said, I think that's fair, I only smoke outside because of you and if you're not here...I can air it out before you get home. I said it will help with my resentment of you being gone because then I'll be doing something I enjoy. This was all email traffic. I thought it was clear, he gets to do something he enjoys and I get something that I enjoy. Win. Win.

And I did enjoy it, I had to work, so I had the laptop at the kitchen table and I was able to burn through a lot by not having to stop and go outside. I was so pleased that I thought of a solution where I had no resentment he was gone. I was enjoying the freedom of doing something I really missed.

His daughter called him and told him I was smoking. 

When he got home, he was furious. He was in a rage that I had gone against his wishes. I said, I told you I was going to smoke. He said, I told you not to. and it went all downhill from there...something about the man is the head of the household and women are to submit to the man. Which is biblically true but what about the part where the man is to love the wife sacrificially? Arrgh.

It got worse when I said, fine, if I can't smoke when you're gone, then you can't take these weekend trips anymore. And that unleashed the monster.

I don't mind his weekend trips, what I mind is he doesn't plan any for the two of us!! That makes me feel so neglected, all his off work plans rarely include me. That's the heart of the matter. I'm a neglected wife.


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## Christine11 (Sep 13, 2010)

Applepies, I can totally relate to you. My husband has the "I am the man of the house" attitude also. I wouldn't mind it if I felt that he would 'cherish' me more. I think we are in the same boat, its like they can do all those things and its okay but watch out if you do it too. They won't have it. That's what makes me so angry. The entitlement to feel they can do things but when you want equality they get upset.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

I'm not sure I'd want to be with a guy who would leave bruises on me, or who wants to lord over me and give me the "I'm the man" crap. I respect my boyfriend, very much, and I will always consider any request or desires he has, but not because he's the man and I must. I will consider them because I love and respect him and he *asks*, not tells and then pitches a fit if I don't comply. 

With that said, I'm not you. You want to be with him, and if that's the case, I think the best thing to do is be honest about it but not push. It's entirely possible he agreed on the house thing simply because he thought it was what you wanted and your mind was made up and so he saw no reason to do anything other than agree and move out. 

So, be honest and tell him you want to be with him and that divorce isn't really what you want. Tell him if and when he would like to discuss possibilities to let you know, and then leave it alone. Don't beg, don't demand, don't cry, don't threaten. Just a simple "I still love you and I'd still like to make this work if you feel the same. Think about it and let me know" and then move on with your life.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

Atruckersgirl has said what I would say almost exactly. From a man's POV I would never physically attack or harm a women unless in self defence, There is no place for it in any relationship and the man should realise that resorting to using his greater strength means he has already lost the argument. I think he has moved out because he feels guilty at hurting you and is possibly afraid that next time it could be worse. I would guess he needs some time to come to terms with his unusual behaviour, you need to give him that time and in the meantime try to keep yourself busy and not think to deeply about it, which i know is very difficult.

Good luck


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm feeling today that there's not a chance. Because of the shame of what he did to me, or perhaps in his mind, it's all my fault. When you do something, out of control, out of bounds maybe you cut that person out so you don't have to think about it. And seeing that person is like salt in a wound.

Like I say, I keep going back and forth. I like order, I like routine, I like knowing I'm secure. He used to make me feel safe, you know? Like he was a protector. But then it became that I needed protection from him. What if those squeezing hands were wrapped around my throat? I mean squeezing my arms, what was that? Is that what abusers do at first? Shove, yell, threaten and then squeeze before they move on to a fist to the face?

It's all so bizarre. One day your life is 'this' and then in an instant, it's all smashed into something unrecognizable. I think if I could get into his brain, his thoughts would be...just random everyday thoughts. I don't think he is allowing himself to go to thinking about what happened or why or how. I think he is blocking it and me out.

Tomorrow I might be back to thinking, yes, we can work this out. Today, not so much. How dare he do that to me. If you love someone, you don't hurt them. Blech. Why can't I be strong enough to say no one is allowed to do that to me?

I think the gap is too wide.

I'm grateful for a place to just get it all out. And have someone care. It's so appreciated right now. Day 16, I've made it to day 16 and still standing. I've secured my home, this was my house prior to the marriage. We are safe, me and my daughter are safe and it's peaceful. That's a lot.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't know where I read it, maybe on here, maybe someplace else.

The one who loves the least, controls the relationship.

I'm watching tv and picking out the one who loves the least in tv relationships. It's easy to see, because the one who loves more is doing most of the work in the marriage.

What happens when you love less than the one who loves the least? Would that turn the tables?

Or does the relationship die at that point.

Just random thoughts...


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

From a week ago...

email to him:

I’m really freaked that you haven’t apologized. Truly. I know I messed up so bad, too. That you haven’t told me you are sorry is hurting me deeply to the core. I don’t understand. 

His response:

I am truly sorry. I lost my temper and was completely out of line. You did not deserve to be pushed about. 

The reason I have not apologized until now is I'm so busy just trying to get things in order. I live out of boxes, my bank account is hacked so I have limited access to that account. In general I'm self-absorbed right now. Once I get settled I will have time to think about what happened and what went wrong. Mostly I believe I will be ashamed. 

I am sorry.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

I think I'm going through the mad phase of grief.

Self absorbed. Just need to remember this and I won't be tempted to contact him.

He just needs to worry about himself right now, well, yesterday and tomorrow. And the next day. Etc.

Ok. Done.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

I feel for you, I really do. You are obviously a loving and caring person and you don't deserve any of this. The problem here is the abuse. Ask yourself this...Did he squeeze me so tight in order to cause physical harm or was he just holding me and forgot his strength? Men are massively more strong than women and usually women do not see this side of their man. For example did he shake you whilst squeezing? if so then I would say it was done out of the need to control you and in this case he has a serious problem. If he was just holding you very tight, whilst this is still wrong, to him it may not have seemed so much. I am not defending him, I have had plenty of arguments with my wife and never hurt her physically in any way, never even attempted to touch her whilst arguing. What were you doing when he grabbed you, were you going to throw something, were your arms waving madly around? Why would he grab you? If there was a reason he had to grab you and then just forgot his strength that is one thing, if he did it to control you and deliberately cause pain then that is very different IMO and you should not accept him back unless he goes to anger management therapy with a certified counsellor. I am no expert so please feel free to disagree with my opinion, I may be very wrong, these are just my thoughts.

Stay strong and do something you enjoy to take your mind off it, sit in the garden and read a good novel with a coffee and ciggy.

Chin up gal!


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Can't sleep. 

The whole thing was bizarre. He would yell loud and I yelled back. That's bad habit of mine. You are suppose to walk away when someone screams at you. Something in me says, oh yeah, you think you can be loud and I'll back down? Think again. Stupid. Like in the Back to the Future movie where if someone calls him chicken.

So he yelled, I yelled back and then he grabbed my upper arms as tightly as he could, and then pushed me down. Twice, first time we were next to the bed and he threw me on the bed. Second we were in the kitchen (this fight moved around) and he did it again, grabbed my upper arms and slowly forced me down to the ground. The look on my face was 'what the hell are you doing?' The kitchen one, he clunked the back of my head against the counter. I don't know if that was on purpose or accidentally. So weird. I wasn't flaying about or anything, probably I had hands on hips while yelling. After I got up from the kitchen floor, I said, you are abusive, you are a physical abuser...almost in a whisper because I was in total shock. The look on his face was scared and then anger. Then the cops showed up. He went into mr. calm mode, the cop was you folks need to calm down, can one of you leave? And dh said, she should leave because she has a place to go. He was so cold/icy. Ended up, he stayed downstairs, slept on the couch down there and I slept in the bedroom. I don't know if I should of had him arrested, all the web sites say yes, have the abuser arrested but I was just so in shock and scared of what he might do if I did have him arrested.

The next day was halloween, me and dd (dear daughter) cut up the pumpkins and finished making candy bags. I bought a lot of gospel tracts prior to put in the bags with candy. I was really excited about all the kids that would be reading them and hoping they would plant seeds. It was hard to keep going but I wasn't going to let anything stop me from spreading the Word to the neighborhood kidlets. 

The next few days we didn't speak very much. I was freaked out and worried that he was going to hurt me again. After something like that, I didn't know what he was capable of in regard to hurting me. I was worried that he would want the house and me and dd would have to move. I was surprised that he agreed so easily to letting me and dd stay. He has been very polite since the fight. But only lite talk.

I've been thinking back over the times we've been together. About where this lack of ability to discuss feelings came from.

It's hard for me to push down feelings and not talk about them but that's how it's been for most of the marriage. I'm sort of a get it out type of person. Like me and dd can argue, and it's no big deal. I can tell her, dd come pick up your shoes, I'm tired of them all over the house. She'll say in a minute. I'll say right now young lady. and she does it. Story over.

With dh, if one of his daughters leaves something out, he hides it in the garage. They'll be looking for the item, ask him and he'll say, you left it out, you can have it back in a week.

I don't agree with that but whatever, different styles.

Back a couple years, we were all visiting his parents in another state. We went out to dinner and then were walking around the beach. His two daughters got into an argument, I was with dd nearby but didn't catch the action, and his parents were looking at each other and away, dh came and got me saying we have to leave. I asked why, he said because the girls are arguing. So we left and went back to the hotel. I was thinking, why didn't anyone tell them to cut it out. But no, no one said anything to the girls about arguing. It was so weird!

Also, where we were staying, his dd and I had a little tiff. Something about mean girls on the beach and she was going to teach them a lesson. I went into, a Christian doesn't return evil for evil, please do not start anything with those girls. She got so mad at me. Later, I couldn't find the tea cup I had been using. I found it stuffed back in a lower cabinet, hidden from me. Great, passive agressive. Wonderful.

So my way is just say it, what is the big deal. Their upbringing is manipulate, do things behind the back, never have straight up face to face confrontations. They never learned those skills!

When dd and me have our little tiffs, dh is very uncomfortable. I allow dd to speak her mind and I let her know what I think. But you never see that behavior from his girls. And when I try to let dh know what I think, he can't handle it. He goes on the defensive and the wall goes up. Then the silent treatment, no affection, for a few days and then we act like nothing is wrong.

Pretty messed up.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

I wonder if his father was a bully that suppressed their every attempt at self expression. Their only answer was to learn to do things surreptitiously and to be manipulative in order to get what they want. Your husband looks like that's how he deals with things mostly but on this one occasion he lost it. What bothers me is it happened twice, the bedroom and the kitchen, after the first time he should have realised and thought to himself "what the hell am I doing" but he didn't and did it again. He then changed character when the police arrived, more evidence of manipulating the circumstances to suit his own needs. It is looking more and more to me like you need to split permanently, I can't see you ever being happy with him, he needs to be totally dominant and you would have to be totally passive for it to work and you are not like that and why should you be. you are not messed up, he is, you are straight thinking, logical and sensitive, you deserve better.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, his father was abusive, his mother had to manipulate to make the marriage work. The dad was involved in all sorts of activities that excluded the mom, the mom wasn't close to my dh. Sounds like he spent his childhood running around with the neighborhood kids. His sister married an abusive man and they divorced, his brother is married to a woman that forbids him from seeing his parents and is controlling. My family was no bed of roses either, distant uninvolved father, loving mother though, I lucked out there.

I'm wondering...if my blended family who is expertise in passive/agressive, manipulative behavior...I'm wondering if dh didn't orchestrate this whole event. My cynical jaded side is thinking that perhaps he wanted out. 

It was really ugly. I'm thinking at the point he started this fight was at where he let it all out because he was done and had no wish to stay in the relationship. If you wanted out of a relationship but knew that your spouse would want to try and stay together, wouldn't a way to manipulate them into getting them to agree with the 'it's over' is to do something so heinous that they would actually help you to leave?

If you are a passive/agressive manipulator and can't possibly say, I'm not happy, I think I made a mistake and wish to end the marriage, wouldn't it then be logical to be so horrid that the spouse is practically pushing you out the door? I'm starting to feel like I've been played for a fool. He hasn't contacted me. He didn't attempt to make amends afterwards. I'm never going to get a straight answer from him.

I know, get on with my life, put this horror behind me and move on. And I will. I'll need him to attend the closing on the refi of the house to sign the deed over to me, which he readily agreed to do. Then we can pretend like we never knew each other, this was just some blip in the course of things and go on with our lives.

I feel like crap. I know God will make a way for me to get over this, I know He will give me strength, I pray for Him to help dh to heal from this brokeness, dh is broken, something is very wrong with him, praying for the Holy Spirit to do a mighty work in his life. Praying for our kids and what they have all gone through these past few weeks. Praying for God to heal my broken heart and make me whole again. Turn this evil into good Lord, for Your glory.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Isn't it weird the thoughts that pop up in the middle of the night? I don't know if dh was orchestrating an event or if he just didn't care anymore. Not to excuse my own actions, I think keeping a bottle tight lid on your emotions for months, is asking for trouble. I think when the lid blew off, all those pent up emotions came streaming forth that night. Not that it makes it any better, it just makes it easier to understand.

I was coming down the stairs about a week ago, talking to God asking, what road do I take Lord, reconciliation? Divorce? Lord, I don't want to deal with either road, which one do you want me to take?

And this song was playing on the radio...

Are you standing
At a crossroad
Wondering which road you should take
And you're dreading
The decision
And a possible mistake
But the will of God won't lead you
Where the grace of God can't keep you
You will never be out of His care
Remember that the Lord's already there

Wherever you are
Wherever you're going
God is right there beside you
Seeing and knowing
Wherever you go
He already knows
What lies ahead and what's behind
You'll always find He's never too far
From wherever you are

You are waiting
To hear thunder
And see lightening in the sky
Oh, but God can
Work His wonders
Through a still small voice inside
Just keep listening and learning
And continue on your journey
Following the One who is the way
He's the only road you need to take

He sees me, He cares, what a wonderful moment.

Anyhow, being the idiot I am, I sent these lyrics to dh about a week ago. Today he answered me via email telling me, that's how I hear God, through that still small voice. Answer to prayer. Whether we reconcile or not, God is reaching out to him.  That brings me a lot of comfort.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Feel like I'm on standby. Will I graduate to the getting a divorce forum or the reconciliation forum?


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

I have a praise. Dh deposited some money in my bank acct. today. He didn't have to, I didn't ask him to do that. Very grateful regardless, kind of scared of how it's going to work out financially prior to the refi being closed. I told dd, it's going to be sandwiches for awhile until this gets worked out. Luckily, we like sandwiches.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Another praise, I can now fit into my fav jeans. Now that is a silver lining.

Pretty much believe that divorce is the only option. Been thinking back over the past few months...I don't think dh has the will to go through the work it would take to put this back together, the will or the ability. Acceptance is hard, very hard.

Ok, got to get some things done. Just keep going.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

The stack of mail for dh was stacking up, I got a notice from the post office asking who should be receiving mail at this address, I put me and dd and stuck it back in the box. Today there was more mail for dh along with letter from the post office about his change of address. So I texted him, you have mail. 

He picked it up while I was out, I saw him driving as I was heading home. I got home and all his mail is gone, and the garage door opener and the house key were on the table.

Sigh. Ok, they have divorce papers on line, right? No need to pay some lawyer an exhorbinant sum. Right? Sigh. I'll wait until thanksgiving holiday, more time to work through the online docs we will need.

A friend at work was telling me how she knows how to make home made pasta. I said, oh please, invite me over and show me how to do that! She said, I do have pasta parties occasionally...I'm going YES pasta party!! 

I do enjoy cooking and trying new dishes. I'd like to learn how to make pasta. 

My other dd and her dh will be here for Thanksgiving, I was out buying table chairs, they had a sale of $21 a chair and I got two. I invited my stepdad too but since mom died, it's hard to get him out of the house. Anyway, I now have chairs for everyone. I ordered an organic bird, I'm so looking forward to seeing older dd, she is awesome.

I miss him, I love him. Let it go. Breathe.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

You know that moment when all the pieces of the puzzles come together? And it all makes sense.

BORDERLINE MALES I'VE KNOWN, AND ALMOST LOVED; Surviving the Crash after your Crush.

The rages, the inability to communicate, the pulling away, the lonliness, the walking on eggshells. I finally understand.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

Hi Applepies

how are you doing gal?

Are you sure he has BPD, it sounds pretty severe, see this link for a list of criteria: Diagnostic Criteria

Hope you are feeling better and you and dd are doing well. i have updated my post today as well.

Take care


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi Quantum.

Always a chance I could be wrong. I wish I was wrong. But unfortunately, I don't think I am. Everything I'm reading about BPD fits.

That's why when we would have a disagreement, it never got resolved. He would treat me cold as ice for a few days and then act like nothing had happened. He was splitting, doing black and white thinking. I'm either bad or good, no gray areas.

We've got into a fight back in July and he raged at me the most awful put downs, now I realize he was telling me his faults and projecting them onto me. He was screaming 'you are so controlling' and other very hurtful things. I'm not controlling, I tend to be very passive and conflict avoidant.

The anger. I've seen him go from 0 to 100 over the most benign things. Intense rage in his face. Often. But he controls it, walks away, goes off to cool down. But wow, so intense.

I've been lonlier and lonlier as he has pulled away and cut me out of his life. All my attempts to pull him back in were not appreciated. Talking about anything deeper than the weather became impossible. He wanted love but as soon as it was secured, he didn't want it anymore.

I have emails at work between us going back to 2007. I was reading through them. They start with loving concern, then after we were married in 2008, they started to become different, more about him. The ones over the last year, they are mostly about his health...headache today, stomach ache, dizzy, etc.

I was reading that this condition folks have the development of a 4 year old emotionally. They yearn for a mommy, a nurturer, that would describe me. Once they have a mommy, they leave them at home to go play but they like to return to make sure mommy is there. Also, they replay what got original mommy's attention, feeling sick or getting hurt. And that's what his emails turned into over the past few months.

It's like he yearns for the love he didn't get from his mom in his early development. But once he has it, he doesn't crave it anymore.

Scary thoughts. When he was a baby, he almost died from SIDS, his DAD found him in his crib not breathing. Could this be similiar to babies not getting attention and failing to thrive? Remember those experiments they did with babies, the ones that didn't get love and attention...many died. Freakier still, he had an older brother that died of SIDS.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

The hardest part to deal with right now is the lack of closure. BPDs are notoriously hard to get into treatment, even if he were willing to try and work things out. I think he would reject my opinions anyway. In his mind, I'm bad and it's all my fault. It's easy for them to cut and run. Out of sight, out of mind. It's hard for them to remember a person that's not right there in front of them. 2 weeks to a non is like 6 weeks to a BPD. I'm sure I'm not in his thoughts or not often anyway.

It's extremely painful and devastating.  To have given such a large chunk of yourself to someone and be treated like this. And feeling so foolish for having fallen for it, for not seeing the signs and not gotten involved in the first place.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

Applepies, does he know he could have BPC? Have you discussed it with him? Is this a way forward? After all you may have identified the problem and once the problem is found a solution is a step nearer. Perhaps there are treatment programs you can both go to?


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't think it can be addressed. He has shut himself off from me. I sent him this email two days ago and received no response.

"Doing a lot of soul searching. Finding some answers.

We have some broken parts. Some similiar some not. We both keep trying to resolve those darn childhood wounds. We both deal with self loathing, we both yearn to be loved, we both fear abandonment. We both have wrong conceptions of what love really is, I mean healthy love.

How I deal with the early wounding is I associate being needed with love. If I feel that someone doesn't need me, they don't love me. I feel like I need to be fixing something to get love. Nurturer. That picture of me with the baby doll, she needed me, so therefore she loved me. That is not love though. Love is just being loved for being you. I need to get help on resolving my wrong conception of love, the belief that I must be perfect to be loved. That if I do a screw up that means I can't possibly be loved. Acceptance of being imperfect. Trying to heal that core wound so I don't keep recreating the same situations over and over, trying to resolve that childhood conflict. Being a people pleaser and always running away from feeling empty unless I am worrying about someone else. Learning to not be so scared to feel where that early pain is coming from. Learning to feel. 

That nurturer side is attractive to your wounds. You yearn for someone to meet those early needs that went unmet. But when they are met, you lose the desire for them. Like you are hungry for something particular, you eat it and then you don't feel the need for it. So the more I loved on you, the more you are less interested in it. The less interest you have, the more I felt unneeded and since I have an unhealthy connection that need equals love, unneeded felt like you didn't love me.

It's like our hurts caused us to be attracted to each other, that person can make this pain end. And for awhile it worked. And then we set up the situations that initially caused our wounds. That took us back to those times where we experienced the trauma in our early childhoods. Funny how people will recreate those situations and then try to fix them.

I understand that when you were raging at me, it was what you experienced as a child. It was difficult for me and I'm an adult, I can't imagine dealing with it as a kid. I'm so sorry. I know what your brokeness is, I know what you can do but I fear you don't want to hear it. I'm scared to hurt you, really scared. I know you have trust issues, as do I. I don't mean you any harm, no revenge, nothing but wanting your healing. Remember, I'm a fixer. (sad smile)

Wishing I could say I love you but not knowing what that really means right now. I'm broken."

I think it's time to figure out if I can work on this personal issue, I guess I'm what they term co-dependent. What we do to each other is toxic and unhealthy. His brokeness is very hard to work through, extremely painful and many just can't do it. Core issues are very difficult to resolve. I'm scared that mine own are unrepairable.

Heavy stuff. But if I'm ever going to be able to have healthy relationships, I best be addressing this.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Interesting quote:

Unmet primal needs (those of infancy and early childhood) always take precedence over adult needs.

Want to save this here, too:

Are People Pleasers capable of feeling loved? 

Generally, no. Entitlement issues have impaired People Pleasers' capacity to believe they're lovable, so it's very difficult to accept and trust *genuine* expressions of love or caring from others. 

Givers/pleasers lacked crucial emotional supplies in childhood; these early deficits prompted a need to control their relationships (the one who needs the least, is always the one in power). 

Receiving is experienced as "taking" (away from someone) and feels "selfish." This triggers anxiety, as it invokes a sense of obligation that makes adequate reciprocation a seemingly impossible task. 

The tragic irony in all this, is that a pleaser's giving gestures are driven by deep needs for admiration and affection, which they're unable to welcome/embrace, because at their core they feel undeserving and unworthy.

Aaack.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

More....



How often have you heard yourself say, "I'm a giver, not a taker"? Have you experienced discomfort when receiving something from another, whether it's a kind gesture, favor or gift? Do you know what it's like to be in a reciprocal relationship? If these questions are triggering familiar sensations, it means you started learning this inclination in childhood, and were made to feel that receiving supplies of attention, affection and emotional support came at a substantial cost to your parent(s). As a natural outcome of this, you began putting the needs of others far ahead of your own, because doing otherwise meant punishment, guilt and/or shame. 

None of us grew up being perfectly parented--in fact it's virtually impossible to anticipate that this could even happen. Alas, we are all products of our experiences, which have impacted us to one degree or another, and that's what this piece attempts to address. There will likely be parts of this article that you'll relate to, and other parts you won't--but if any of this material opens a doorway to greater self-awareness, healing might begin for you and your child, parent or spouse, and that's my objective.

When you're a self-proclaimed "giver," it's very likely you've been raised in a home where certain needs were not acknowledged or adequately responded to, and you've compensated for this deficit, by becoming a caregiver. Even if you felt that your parents were overburdened in some way, you could have tried to become an invisible child, so as not to place more demand on them. 

As a young kid, you may have discovered that taking care of another's needs provided vicarious satisfaction, and a sense of safety, empowerment or self-worth. Whether you've promoted another's dependency on you emotionally, physically or financially as an adult, feeling needed has fortified your self-esteem--but it's also eased your abandonment concerns, which forms the basis of these relational choices. 

Wounds to one's sense of Self during infancy and early childhood, are often referred to as core damage/trauma or narcissistic injury, within the body of this text. In simple terms, having 'core issues' means that the hub of your wheel has been broken or damaged in some manner. When the very center of your being is compromised, all the spokes which emanate from that point will be weak, and susceptible to breaking. Core trauma impacts every aspect of our existence, as it shapes self-worth, and influences how we think about and take care of ourselves, in personal and professional relationships. 

Core-damaged children grow into needful adults. They might fear that if they let themselves love somebody as intensely as they want to, that person will shriek, run off into the night, and abandon them. Their sense of need feels gigantic, and often painful. It presumes that someone on the receiving end won't be able to handle it--which triggers shame for being "so needy." This shame makes one want to shut-down their needs (or control them), which is a defense that has one giving to others, what he/she desperately requires. It also has them selecting unavailable partners who reactivate these painful sensations, which reinforces their core abandonment trauma.

Entitlement issues have to do with poor self-worth, and our inability to feel deserving/worthy of receiving what we need and want. Healthy self-esteem means that we're equally as comfortable getting as giving. Our desperate, unrelenting need to gain acceptance and approval from others (so that we can feel good about ourselves), is at the core of fixing or rescuing behaviors.

THE GRASS ROOTS OF AN INTRICATE, ANCIENT GARDEN

Every child who experiences deficits in nurturant attention, encouragement, affection, positive mirroring, etc. from his parent, presumes it's his/her fault, and experiences shame ("I'm not good enough/lovable"). This child grows up with the belief that if he/she tries just a little harder to gain these parental supplies, they will be forthcoming. Up to a point, this has them efforting to be perfectly helpful and useful, but it's not rewarded. The parent may praise an accomplishment--but does not convey the intrinsic lovability of this child, which reinforces his ideation that he must 'do,' in order to receive genuine acceptance or praise. Some kids experience performance fatigue, and give-up trying to get these crucial needs met, but carry the very same behaviors into their adult associations! Their painful hope that someone, someday will find them worthy of love, keeps them chasing after it (against all odds), in romantic partnerships. If they manage to find a partner who initially mirrors their worth, it confirms that it might not have been their lack of lovability (with their parents) after all. The only issue with this subconsciously driven need, is that they're selecting lovers who are cut from the same cloth as the folks who raised them--and the end result is consistent/identical. This of course, reconstitutes their original shame (from parental abuse). Needing to flee this horrible feeling, drives an unrelenting compulsion to get love from people who cannot supply it. 

As you read through this material, you might experience sudden sleepiness or perhaps a little sadness. This is a somatic response, which means that a facet of you is identifying with various elements being discussed here--and they have important meaning for you. While you may decide to take a short break, rest assured that there is nothing to fear from these uncomfortable sensations, and I encourage you to continue. You'll get the most value from this information, if you return to the hyperlinks that take you to other pages after you've finished reading this article.

When a client tells me they had an "ideal childhood," or that his/her parents had a perfect, long-term marriage, I know we've got challenging work ahead. The reality is, if this were true, they would not be struggling to form healthy attachments--and they definitely wouldn't be needing my help. Denial keeps us trapped in self-blame for our failings, instead of putting the blame where it actually belongs. It also keeps us addicted to poor relational choices.

You may have convinced yourself that your parents "did the best they could" but if that's so, why are you having to invest all this time, money and effort in therapy and a litany of self-help venues, just to feel okay about yourself?

A child needs to feel valued by his/her parent. He needs to see welcome on the parent's face when he enters a room, and feel like he really matters, and is loved. Very few of us ever experienced this--in fact, what we consistently saw instead, were expressions of indifference or annoyance--and this shaped how we grew up feeling about ourselves!

When we repeatedly feel confusion, disappointment and pain in childhood, we have to normalize those experiences in order to survive them. Often, we stow away these difficult feelings or make them not matter, so we're able to coexist with a variety of upsets--and the people responsible for them (our parents). The problem is, these survival strategies remain intact throughout our adulthood, and prompt serious issues like anxiety disorders, addictions, compulsive behaviors, attachment fears, impaired partner selection, etc.

A few of my clients have chosen to share this material with their parent. If You are a parent, and your adult child has given you this article or you've found it by chance, there's a strong likelihood they're needing your apology for some childhood issues they've struggled to surmount. If you're wanting to build a closer bond with him or her, any attempts to make amends must be heartfelt--and made without explanations or excuses. The reasons you weren't 'equipped' to do it differently or better, are of no use in context of healing the pain they still carry. In short, this effort can't become about you and your struggles, for while they may have empathy and understanding for your plight, they're still wrestling with unresolved wounds and trust issues. Healing is only possible, when someone you've hurt (even unwittingly) can feel your sincere remorse. While this process isn't easy, it can go a long way toward helping you repair any relationship where trust has been undermined.

When feelings are put away in childhood, our emotional growth is stunted. As we can't help but be drawn to partners who echo our earliest experiences and match our level of emotional development, we're naturally attracted to others who are as underdeveloped and damaged as we--which sets us up for failure in our Love life. These unions seem familiar and 'normal' to us, so there's an intoxicating, compelling drive to maintain them. This element is discussed in greater depth toward the end of this article--but the rest will help you discern why you've landed here.

THE CAREGIVER EQUATES BEING NEEDED, WITH BEING LOVED.

Your caregiving nature is drawn to codependent relationship dynamics with friends or lovers who are either handicapped, in crisis, emotionally/sexually underdeveloped, substance addicted or in recovery/rehab. You've unwittingly selected partners whose self-esteem is flagging, or whom in some way need rescuing--or extreme amounts of support or nurturing. Quite often, feelings of boredom or emptiness will prompt phone calls to friends who allow you to fuel/fix them with 'pep talks' or emotional/psychological bolstering, and you feel better afterward. Occasionally, you'll romantically connect with someone who initially shows promise or "potential," only to be disappointed and angry at the end of this relationship, having carried the financial and/or emotional weight for both of you! The subconscious theme that underlies this pairing process is: "If you NEED me, you'll never leave me."

In the rare event a selected lover presents as self-sufficient and non-needy, Caregivers are still compelled to encourage some level of dependency. This can be demonstrated by attempts to subtly undermine a partner's confidence in body image, wardrobe preference, dietary habits, work proficiency, sexual adequacy, etc. Basically, if there's opportunity to create (at least) an illusion of being indispensable and needed, abandonment concerns are averted. This behavior is driven by our subconscious determination to maintain inequity in relationships, for the one who needs the least is always the one in power. 

Partners may unwittingly undermine themselves by losing jobs, getting sick, failing, etc., to be complicit with the dynamic you've needed to maintain in the relationship. There's always a payoff in this--as the unspoken agreement or 'contract' that was created when you two first joined, remains unchanged. 

When a mate/partner is perceived as diminished (or less than) you feel more secure, in that you can control the relationship dynamic and manipulate its emotional climate to suit internal comfort levels. In truth, feeling needed is enhancing to your self-image, and reinforces a sense of well-being/safety; but if a lover gains some empowerment and develops a more equal footing, your Caregiver prowess feels suddenly diluted. This is when your emotional equilibrium is compromised and abandonment anxiety surfaces, prompting either sabotaging or clinging behaviors. Selection strategy generally insures against this outcome, as you will turn away from lovers or friends who are capable of meeting you on a more balanced playing field. Healthier choices require authentic self-esteem, which you may never have had opportunity to develop. You'll naturally guard against anybody discovering this secret, as covert shame (a remnant from childhood) steers you away from more viable, fully-integrated people who might notice your fragility and/or shortcomings.

But what is at the core of this issue? Being loved in totality is something that Caregivers do not fundamentally believe is possible, as "negative" (or less appealing) traits and feelings have been suppressed since infancy, in order to gain more affection and care, and mitigate fears of abandonment. Essentially, this child has been emotionally blackmailed into responding to the needs of his/her mother, and personality aspects that were unpleasant or inconvenient for her to accommodate, are surrendered/discarded. Even if Mom just needed to shield her husband from any form of agitation, her child is conditioned to believe that specific facets and feelings are unacceptable and bad. As he matures, he will internalize and adopt this attitude toward himself; even the subtlest awareness of their presence makes him think he's "bad," so he virtually amputates these sensations out of his persona, and becomes a People Pleaser, which could have serious health repercussions. 

Cancers, stomach/intestinal problems, rheumatism, migraine headaches and Anxiety/Panic Disorders are only a few of the ailments that are triggered by long-held resentment and repressed rage. It's not that anger is bad--but it's harshly self-judged, and banished from the personality structure. This deficit in feelings/emotions results in a partial personality, instead of a whole one. 

The Caregiver/Pleaser has developed an idealized notion of how he must be perceived in order to be loved--so each giving gesture literally provides a self-image payoff. While this emotional 'reward' may be satisfying on some level, the compulsion to take care of others, consistently overrides personal needs and underdeveloped feelings, and perpetuates an issue of "Giving 'till it hurts."

If one hasn't come to fully accept him/herself with both light and dark facets and feelings, how can he/she possibly like/respect themself? This issue sets an individual up for having to compulsively buy another's love with various gifts, gestures and behaviors that consistently put the other's desires before one's own. These actions are always automatic/reflexive, for the Caregiver isn't acquainted or comfortable with his/her own feelings--much less, needs. 

The Pleaser so hungrily seeks approval, he'll happily work longer hours, take on extra tasks that aren't part of his job description, never take vacations, never ask for a raise in salary, etc. He secretly wants his contributions to be noticed and rewarded--but fear keeps him from asking for any compensation. He would literally prefer that his employer intuit his needs/desires and grant what's never spoken of or requested--as deep down, he doesn't feel worthy of receiving. This entitlement issue generally starts during infancy.

When we've grown up making ourselves wrong for having needs (one of the core tenets of codependency), it's easy to feel like it's our fault, when we feel bad in a relationship because we're not getting our needs responded to. This drives the reflex to bury those needs, and make allowances/excuses for others. It motivates the need to keep trying, in the face of any/all obstacles and odds. This reflex is connected to archaic sensations of shame which are cemented by another's distorted confirmation that we're defective/unlovable. Our subconscious mind presumes that if we were truly lovable, we would get far more affection/attention, and be happy and content: It never takes into account the other's ability or inability to love him/herself or others!

Lurking underneath the surface of every Caregiver's attachments is often the question; "when's it gonna be my turn?" They erroneously presume that the more they give, the more they'll (eventually/some day) get back--but that rarely happens, due to the type of person they've chosen to love. Reciprocal relationships literally feel uncomfortable, and are summarily avoided.

Passive-aggressive behavior is very common within this personality type, for there's substantial difficulty with identifying feelings and needs. Having learned to obliterate emotions in order to survive, recognizing and conveying them in a straightforward manner is not only foreign, it involves confronting long-dreaded vulnerability, and challenges/threatens one's entrenched non-needing identity. Resentment is often cumulative for someone who's unable to acknowledge feelings, and for whom experiencing and expressing needs produces discomfort. Therefore, a series of minor infractions that are usually unwitting on another's part, are initially glossed over, and internalized as trivial or "unimportant." Mounting resentment can easily erupt in explosive outbursts, but is more often acted-out in a passive/non-direct fashion, which can include physical, sexual or emotional withdrawal, sarcasm, *****iness, infidelities, delaying or "forgetting" specific requests made by the lover, not following through with commitments, etc. This style of interplay was learned by the (adult) child growing up, as his parents were incapable of engaging him in healthier, more constructive interactions. The outcome of this kind of parenting is a deeply wounded self-esteem, and diminished sense of trust in Self and others: We learn how to love ourselves and others, by how we were treated as children.

SHOW ME WHERE YOU ARE, AND I'LL KNOW WHERE YOU'VE BEEN.

Childhood experiences always predict the nature of adult relationships. An extraordinary number of males who've grown up without fathers or in homes where the father was ill, abusive or just emotionally/physically unavailable, have developed powerful inclinations to fix/rescue females. When a mother's relationship with her spouse or partner is lacking in emotional resources or she's unattached, her children must often assume the complex (adult) role of filling this void. While the eldest or male child is typically chosen for this task, any child who's felt responsible for meeting his/her mother's needs, will likely develop rescuing compulsions. These dynamics are usually kept in place for the duration of one's life, or the life of the mother (and beyond, if there are siblings for whom he or she feels responsible). This enmeshment issue acutely interferes with a Caregiver's ability to create an independent, emotionally gratifying and successful lifestyle, without significant feelings of remorse, shame or guilt over "inadequate" attention/support to his parent or siblings, no matter how much has been given or provided.

Since these attitudes and behaviors were essentially implanted during the earliest part of his formative years, they tend to remain alive indefinitely. If specific therapeutic help is not engaged to dismantle these constructs, they are projected onto his romantic liaisons--which spawns significant emotional ambivalence. Hence, a male who appears to "fear commitment" may actually be trying to avoid engulfment, because he's lacked a positive/sound frame of reference for what it means to experience closeness. 

His twin fears; Abandonment and Engulfment (or loss of Self), combine with difficult feelings of inadequacy and unworthiness that catalyze destructive, compensatory behaviors. Control issues and addictions help this Caregiver defend against painful ambivalence that's characterized by deep longing but fear of needing, and further undermine his personal strivings and attachment endeavors. He (or she) might routinely pursue relationships with borderline disordered individuals, who are incapable of sustaining genuine intimacy and connection; under these conditions of course, the task of maintaining 'safe' emotional proximity becomes a non-issue. Long-distance romances can also inhibit authentic affectional bonds, and assuage one's engulfment anxiety.

Caregiver personalities frequently construct and maintain fast-paced, highly stressful lifestyles, to avoid difficult sensations (like emptiness, depression) that can surface when they slow down enough to feel. Busily responding to the needs and crises of others, reliably bolsters a tenuous self-image that fits very neatly into this Avoidant Syndrome. Fixing/rescuing behaviors help Caregivers side-step having to confront personal issues and challenges, and distract from internal pain or dissatisfaction. This is a spectacular form of self-medication--but relief is only temporary, which reinforces the addictive compulsion to focus attention outside oneself, rather than looking within. 

The Caregiver was once a child who required love and affection to mirror his intrinsic value and self-worth. Since this was never properly reflected, he has ingeniously invented various methods by which to gain a sense of Self, by over-achieving, publicly performing, rescuing or constantly responding to the needs of others. In essence, he's been programmed to feel worthless, empty and invisible unless he's actively doing, so the simple act of being can invoke guilt and self-loathing. To avert these feelings, even caregiving professionals are compelled by "fixer-uppers" in romantic relationships, as well as needful, physically/emotionally compromised friends who depend on them for support and refueling. Healthy/whole people are drawn to balanced interpersonal relationships--not codependent ones. 

I had a close collegial friendship for many years with a gal whose husband so frequently contracted the Disease du Jour, she was utterly terrified every month or so, that his demise could be imminent! Since this pattern existed throughout the thirteen years we'd been friends, I couldn't help but wonder what underlying issues perpetuated it. In short, what was the subconscious payoff for his getting sick so often, or diagnosing himself with each dreaded disease? I finally asked what changes occurred in their day-to-day dynamic when hubby was supposedly critically ill--and her reply was predictable; she gave him a lot more attention and tender concern! For a guy who'd grown up with a mother who'd encouraged him to play in the streets, and had little regard for his safety or well-being, I presumed this extra attention from his overly-busy, psychotherapist wife felt pretty darned good. As far as I know, they're still doing that dance--it's just simple, emotional mathematics.

This same "friend" would only return my calls, when she could discern I was struggling--but I'd have to wait a week or two to hear back from her, if I just wanted a simple, friendly exchange. She'd offer to take me to non-emergent medical appointments (which felt infantalizing), but we'd have to plan weeks in advance, for a social get-together. It seemed as if friendship was foreign to her, if she couldn't be in the control seat. Given that I only got attention when I needed her, I often felt pathologized or less-than in our relationship. Did I speak with her about these issues? Numerous times--but nothing ever changed. I ultimately withdrew from this association.

UNLOCKING THE DOOR TO WHOLENESS, BY HONORING EMPTINESS.

Caregiver personalities are 'busy-bodies' who compulsively keep themselves running--despite sensations of tiredness, illness, injury, etc. If your entire sense of identity is contingent on how well you take care of everybody else, how is it ever possible to slow down, and respond to your personal feelings and needs? Busy-bodies are typically unable to distinguish between feelings and thoughts. These folks are accustomed to thinking their way through life, as opposed to feeling their way along. Instincts and intuitions are discarded along with other vital sensations, that function as our built-in survival guide. Their absence can leave us frantically shooting in the dark, and settling for non-fulfilling relationships, to flee dreadful emptiness that feels worse than most types of pain. 

Caregivers constantly live with a powerful compulsion give what they never received. There's a dire, inescapable need to take care of everyone else in a manner that's completely foreign to their own childhood experiences. They'll never fully relax, for fear that they're not performing perfectly, and have let someone (anyone) down, if they do! These nagging sensations reinvigorate their disease to please--and perpetuate controlling, codependent behaviors. Selflessness is just a lofty word for codependency, and it's dysfunctional.

When Caregivers construct elaborate defenses like crisis/chaos addictions, they're running from internal distress. Constantly responding to the needs of others enables them to circumvent their own uncomfortable feelings (anger, sadness, loneliness, boredom, etc.), and maintain denial of deep, unhealed trauma. Descending into their personal anguish within a therapeutic alliance is typically avoided, because the notion of allowing a supportive, nourishing, ongoing relationship (essential in helping them mend) feels threatening to their non-needing or 'false-self.' Thus, even friendships and professional or social connections that lack reciprocity due to inherent limitations, are sub-consciously ratified and perpetuated. Whether you're a therapist or patient: Feeling creates opportunity and capacity for Healing. 

PHYSICIAN, HEAL THYSELF - THE WOUNDED PRACTITIONER 

Codependents are way too tough on themselves due to self-loathing, which is a learned response to abuse and/or neglect in childhood. Perhaps they left home to flee shaming criticisms--but continue beating-up on themselves for failings or imperfections. It's imperative to get help to change this.

Individuals who've not addressed core wounds (or narcissistic trauma) at the foundation of this problem, may be especially attracted to careers involving psychological or medical intervention. Psychotherapists, doctors and nurses are all drawn to helping or "fixing" people, as this can form the basis of their self-worth, and provide opportunities to 'change' someone in ways that were never possible to accomplish with a parent. Their appetite for omnipotence has germinated from early childhood, and was originally born out of a need to construct a more powerful (and sometimes grandiose) ego structure, to compensate for archaic deficits that left them feeling disempowered/fragile. The inner hunger that stems from this emotionally under-nourished period, fuels addictions to alcohol/drugs, shopping, overeating, over-work/exercise, scholastic or professional over-achievement, gambling, sex, etc. Someone's drive to alter, elevate or numb his/her mood with substances or compulsive behaviors, is a desperate attempt to fill the core void. This void or sense of emptiness, represents the most prominent piece of every addict's fractured inner mosaic--and there's profound terror in that space.

Narcissism is frighteningly common among helping professionals. Reluctant to acknowledge or experience personal needs, even psychotherapists may neglect to confront their own core disturbances, which leaves them ill-suited to recognize and empathically respond to their patients' most distressing feelings, struggles and self-sabotaging patterns--but is it even possible to effectively walk someone else through a tunnel, that you've been unable or unwilling to navigate? Some clinicians are invested in keeping their patients or clients in treatment far longer than necessary to fortify their own sense of Self--and gratify an unquenchable need to feel needed. Sadly, one's client base might even function as a sort of surrogate family for the therapist who has yearned for, but lacked a meaningful connection with his or her family of origin--which can extend your treatment indefinitely!

Most psychotherapists are treatment-resistant. Many have never spent one hour on someone else's couch, and need to fuel their belief that they've "got it all together," given their professional accomplishments--but such is rarely true. I've observed a great deal of borderline pathology, codependency and other addictions within the psychotherapeutic community--and my sense is, it all generates from unresolved core issues. 

When I was a teen, my dad once said; "make sure you clean up the mess in your own backyard, before you start on someone else's." This little piece of wisdom has had me holding my feet to the fire, with respect to healing and growth. Perhaps it can serve as a helpful reminder, for you too. The truth is, we're not ready to take on passengers, if we haven't plugged up the holes in our own boat. Many people lead lives of quiet desperation, because they're drowning in an ocean of unfinished business from their childhood, and have unwittingly chosen mates who rip the scabs off old, unhealed injuries.

Many individuals I've worked with over the years, are core trauma survivors. Most have geographically distanced themselves as far as possible from their parental home, in order to establish a degree of emotional autonomy. Over time, the issue of enmeshment (inability to discern and separate feelings, belonging to either the parent or the Self) is resolved. At this juncture, one's relationship endeavors can start to become more balanced, productive and gratifying. One's mother figures most prominently within this enmeshment scheme, as she is the first object of attachment, and the mother/child bond is intricate and profound.

LOVE, TRUST, AND OTHER SUCH ANOMALIES 

A developing fetus hears and learns his mother's voice and language style, co-experiences her emotional states and forms an intimate bond with her in-utero. This of course, has far reaching ramifications for children given away at birth ('adoptees'), and imprints them with feelings of abandonment, which are almost impossible to identify or articulate without sensitive, specialized care. Pre-verbal sensations of guilt, unworthiness and shame, which result from having been given up for adoption or abandoned by a mother's untimely death, make them feel "unwanted or discarded," and drive a deep need to avert this kind of trauma from ever occurring again. 

Abandonment issues can inhibit connections that might become more than casual/superficial, or cause one to maintain relationships that are unfulfilling or abusive; under these conditions, any connection could seem better than no connection at all. Many of these folks compulsively strive for perfection in adulthood, to ameliorate their ever-present terror of rejection, or being left. 

Whether physical loss of the mother constitutes part of this core deficit or not, enmeshment issues stemming from emotional abandonment are easily implanted during infancy and early childhood. Again, when a woman's needs are not met by her spouse or partner, they're transferred to her child, which fosters an unhealthy, fused/enmeshed bonding that conditions him to feel responsible for her survival and well being. If the child's attempts to form an autonomous ego are thwarted when he begins to separate/individuate from her in infancy, he remains fixated on the needs of his mother--and every attachment thereafter (to his detriment). Very early on, he begins to sense that only a modicum of personal need fulfillment is available to him, which impacts his sense of worth and viability; in the process, he acquires a subtle anxiety that cannot help but question, "if something should happen to you, what will become of me?" This deep concern prompts Herculean measures to rescue, fix/repair or normalize his beloved parent and their interactions, to mitigate his abandonment fears. At his own expense, he'll even adopt the mother's depressive or dysfunctional features, to retain some semblance of connection with her. These rescuing impulses are automatically carried into his adult dynamics, and are the root of codependent relationships. 

As previously stated, the basis of this disturbance is intricate, and begins very early. When separation is attempted by an infant with a core-damaged mother, this necessary aspect of his development virtually reactivates the mother's original abandonment trauma (carried over from her infancy), and re-awakens insidious primal rage that's projected onto her child. Prior to his individuation phase, this infant's mother might have started experiencing a sense of wholeness, connection and purpose she's never known before, and these richly pleasurable sensations fostered desperate measures to remain attached. Henceforth, the consistent, underlying message in her tone, facial expressions and behaviors toward him throughout this period could convey; "don't you dare separate and cease existing for me and my needs, or I will abandon/annihilate you." This would echo her own disrupted efforts to retain affection and approval, while attempting to forge an autonomous, healthy Ego, distinctly separate/apart from her mother. Core emptiness can drive a woman's psychic/emotional need to give birth to a lot of babies in very close succession (think of Nadia Sulemon), for she thrives on their dependency. A Borderline mother might physically harm her children or make them sick to keep them dependent (as with Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy), or murder them, as they develop beyond this stage.

Unresolved primal needs (from infancy) always take precedence over adult needs! Comforting/soothing physical connection can trap folks in frustrating relational dynamics that are lacking in emotional, cerebral and financial need satisfaction. Females often fall prey to relationships with males they think have "potential," only to be disappointed. They remain angry or dissatisfied, yet are unable to leave, because their little girl needs are being met. At the heart of this issue is enmeshment--and grown woman needs are forfeited.

Deeply buried enmeshment issues are especially common among men who attach to Borderline women. A Borderline's clinginess and neediness can feel suffocating and engulfing, but may replicate an adult male's earliest bonding experiences with Mother. This imprint is potent/heady, and is often retained as a sense memory; the way she smells, the nature of her touch or sound of her voice, makes him think that he's unwittingly found what he's needed his whole life. The loss of this type of attachment will send a man into perilous pain and longing, which is unmatched by any other (remembered) life event. 

It should be noted, that if a nourishing symbiosis with Mother isn't possible during infancy, and a far more attentive/loving attachment is forged with the father, an emotionally sound adult may eventually emerge. But if the father leaves through divorce, death or remarriage, the abandonment trauma this invokes will significantly impact all future relationships. Anxiety surrounding potential loss of someone who might have substantial meaning and value, can inhibit or destroy healthy, gratifying adult connections--and may spawn personality disorders.

WHEN LOVE HAS BECOME ENTWINED WITH PAIN

The cost of not resolving core wounds is reflected in every decision and life choice we make professionally and personally, and crucially impacts romantic endeavors. A caring, mutually nurturing and enhancing relational experience is completely foreign to most Caregivers. They've seldom (if ever) received affection, support and positive mirroring from a non-abandoning source, nor have they experienced loving, that's unaccompanied by pain. The Caregiver repeatedly welcomes relationships that activate dramatic/painful sensations associated with early attachment difficulties, while routinely rejecting those who are actually equipped to meet his/her needs. There's little capacity to respond passionately to a healthy/rewarding dynamic, because the familiar ache of intense longing and yearning--which has come to be interpreted as "Love," isn't present with an available partner! One's perception of such a relationship is that "something's missing," as it cannot trigger feelings that parallel his disappointing/unrequited attachment experiences in childhood.

A lover who's elusive, cruel, or just emotionally and/or physically unavailable can trigger painful sensations that replicate what the Caregiver experienced as a child, seeking a loving/responsive parent. This emotionally inadequate, yet dramatically felt kind of episode functions as a powerful catalyst, that inspires a tenacious (and vaguely familiar) pursuit to seduce the object of desire into returning his attention and ardor. Since the intense feelings that are invoked by such a relationship are compelling/addictive, any individual who awakens them, is addictive as well. In the rare event an attachment is successfully formed, rejection by the lover can set in motion an internal re-creation of his earliest abandonment experience, and drudge up excruciating feelings of inadequacy and shame, which are almost impossible to tolerate. Punishment of the Self (compulsive, addictive reflexes or destructive acting-out behavior) usually accompanies or follows this kind of devastation.

Perhaps the most tragic part of this issue, is that a core-wounded individual unwittingly seeks lovers who are no more equipped to respond to her needs, than her unavailable parent was! She continues to embrace the notion that she will one day find someone who excites her, and whom she can train or teach to love her in ways she's always wanted--but this is a child's fantasy that will never be realized. Still, if these inexhaustible efforts should yield even marginal success, she could feel encouraged to remain, and continue striving for that which cannot be satisfied. 

It's very important to realize, that if a lover could become responsive to his partner's needs, he'd be discarded because of other perceived shortcomings or "flaws" that would suddenly seem untenable; again, an available lover doesn't provoke an intense visceral response. In truth, the thrill is in pursuit and seduction, which perpetuates an endless re-enactment of a child's most fervent wish for a closer bond with his/her parent, while defending against a more palpable fear of losing a deeply meaningful and nourishing attachment. This often means, that individuals who are actually capable of loving/caring interactions are distanced, punished or rejected, so that anxiety surrounding devastating abandonment, is kept at bay. This is the Borderline's crucible.

Caregivers are great at fixing, rescuing, teaching and training, but authentic intimacy/closeness is unsustainable and avoided, given their abandonment fears. Caregivers are often attracted to borderline disordered individuals who match their own emotional deficits and attachment issues.

The narcissistically injured Caregiver may repeatedly convince herself that she is capable of intimacy, by practicing relationship skills with partners who are incapable of fully responding to her. Thus, she continues to refuel the notion that she is "available" by taking calculated emotional risks--the rewards of which, are false reflections of her actual capacity to bond. I'm reminded of a woman who periodically resuscitated discarded relationships. During episodes of re-engagement, she was utterly convinced she loved and wanted these men, but always admitted that if the current lover pursued commitment, she'd beat a hasty retreat--and enumerated his "deficits" to reinforce her stance. When one of these former boyfriends eventually gained closure and attached to another, this client fell into a severe depression. Unable to reseduce this man, she appeared to re-experience her childhood abandonment despair, in having to surrender this intensely felt, yet under-satisfying connection. My sense was that profound (core) sensations of loss, shame and unworthiness, paralleled acute/long-denied pain from unhealed archaic wounds.

Childhood abandonment trauma can create a virtual minefield, in context of romantic endeavors. Sadly, the partner of an abandoned (adult) child cannot help but step on emotional land mines that have lain dormant, perhaps for decades. Self-esteem injuries that have existed since the primal rejection experience are reactivated--which triggers intense anguish and rage. As this early painful material isn't usually held on a conscious level (in terms of its impact), repercussions from a lover's unwitting slights are very difficult to recover from, and often bring about a couple's relational demise.

Many of us grew up observing our parents doing battle, and as children learn from example, this became our definition for what 'marriage' meant. If we're somehow lucky enough to have found a copasetic, nourishing relationship, we might need to upset that balance, just to feel like things are normal. In short, we've gotta throw a monkey wrench into the works, because harmony and peace feel foreign--and therefore, uncomfortable. We could even have become somewhat like the parent we most feared or hated.

YOU CAN'T BUILD YOUR CASTLE ON A CRUMBLING FOUNDATION, AND EXPECT IT TO REMAIN INTACT.

What's critical to understand, is that many of us lacked a healthy/consistent symbiotic bond during infancy with our mothers. As a result, our search for 'perfect attunement' with romantic partners (for which we have no suitable frame of reference) can easily continue indefinitely. The compelling drive to manufacture this nourishing/satisfying primal experience (and heal), propels us toward intense, unstable relationships that echo familiar, but defective interpersonal styles that were imprinted throughout infancy and childhood. Stated more simply, our model for meaningful adult attachments has been constructed from a relationship blueprint, which consisted of painful, under-nourishing experiences! This early blueprint continues to influence self-worth and partner selection, unless/until a solid, nurturing therapeutic alliance can provide a sturdier foundation built on supportive, empathic interactions.

The person you choose to love and partner with, mirrors your own level of emotional development. If you are truly seeking an authentic and intimate relationship, you won't attach to or remain with someone who's not, because he/she isn't a 'match' for your fundamental needs and desires. If you think there's a pattern in your romantic life that consistently feels disappointing, lacking and/or painful, you might ask yourself why you're attracted to this type of individual. More importantly, try to discern the feelings or fears that emerge, when you contemplate deeply loving someone, who could actually respond to you the way you've always wanted, and needed to be loved.



This is my keystone piece, from which nearly all other material on this site emanates. It was originally conceived and written for psychotherapists. More on core injury can be found in other Articles and various Forum discussions. Archived questions/answers relating specifically to these concerns, are in my Codependency Forum. If you're a practitioner who wants to integrate healing work into your practice, private guidance is available.

If you are seeking help with these issues, or your group/organization would like me to speak on this topic, feel free to contact me. The following forum letter should provide further insight about transformational inner work:

Q. Your article hit home for me, and I was amazed at the profound power of knowledge. But how do you change all those "familiar" patterns, and stop rejecting good people who could be loving/giving to you? What is the recovery or hope of changing all that early programming, as who had a chance when they were an infant? 

A. Trust is (ideally) established in the first year of life with our mothers. As an infant, you may have begun sensing you couldn't depend on her to respond sufficiently to your needs, and started moving toward emotional self-reliance in order to survive. This has served you in some ways, but not in others, as it's kept you from getting help with forming healthier, more gratifying attachments! Effective therapeutic support assists you in healing early deficits, by providing corrective emotional experiences that are qualitatively different than what you've been exposed to in your past. These therapeutic opportunities allow you to receive nurturing, attentive (re)parenting, and assist you in feeling more worthy (and desirous) of nourishing, loving experiences within your interpersonal world. Early emotional trauma can be overcome with the help of a professional who understands how profoundly these wounds have affected you, and hindered your capacity to accept and trust an ongoing, nurturing, supportive relationship. Most 'therapy' doesn't tap into this material. Seek help from someone who's well-versed in treating narcissistic injury (core issues). Additional insights can be gained via the writings of Alice Miller; search for this author on Google.

DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

"When we were 3 or 4 we couldn't look around us and say, "Well, Dad's a drunk and Mom is real depressed and scared - that is why it feels so awful here. I think I'll go get my own apartment." 

Made me laugh.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

The hardest thing for any of us to do is to have compassion for ourselves. As children we felt responsible for the things that happened to us. We blamed ourselves for the things that were done to us and for the deprivations we suffered. There is nothing more powerful in this transformational process than being able to go back to that child who still exists within us and say, "It wasn't your fault. You didn't do anything wrong, you were just a little kid."" 

Loving the Wounded Child Within - healing self through inner child work


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

Hi Applepies

You know that is a huge amount of information you have posted and I am wondering if you may be over analysing the situation.

You are spending a huge amount of time trawling through the internet trying to find more and more solutions to your problem having now identified BPD for your husband. But after all that I am a little lost as to what the current situation is. He is still staying away from home, not answering your emails or calls, is that right? you said he didn't answer you email that you posted above. It was quite detailed though wasn't it? Perhaps he is still trying to understand it, or work out a reply etc. I think the bottom line is in your thread title, you are not sure if you want a divorce, is that still the case? What has he said about it, if anything?

You are obviously very smart and a dedicated wife, I am wondering if your hubby is on the same intellectual level as you, and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, it is the case that some people just share so little in common because of this. 

Please update us with the latest actual situation.

Your info above by the way is fascinating and I will attempt to read it all tomorrow in a quiet time of the day.

take care


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Sorry, I'm posting a lot of info I found and want to keep in one place. That is a dang long article. 

Dh did email me back from the email I sent to him. It was very short, just thanking me for the info and that yes, he is broken. He said I am much further in figuring things out than he is.

And that was it. From what I know of my husband is he is very fragile emotionally and he closes up very tight. I replied thanking him for reading and responding and that he can take as long as he needs to figure things out. 

I've been praying for him to just be brought to the end of himself, to come to a place where he will reach out and get help for his condition. That's about all I can do for him. I can't push him, he will just shut down tighter.

What sets me on a tear to address this so deeply, is knowing that this can push me down so hard that is will be hard to function. I have a very stressful intense job, I need my wits about me, I can not let anything jeopardize that. So, I work on why didn't I see the red flags...water tends to sink to it's own level and if my dh is emotionally damaged then I best start looking at my own issues and work on my own emotional health.

Then I can say, ok, this was a really bad experience. But I can't give up. I have to find a way to not let it devastate me. I have to remake a life for me and my dd. Find hope that I can someday establish healthy adult relationships. The failue is not in getting pushed down, it's in not getting back up. I can't let this destroy me or convince me that I deserved this treatment or that I am unlovable. I'm the same person that he fell in love with and sometimes people love you, sometimes they don't but I can't put my personal feelings of worth on arbitary feelings of others. 

I've been doing some of the self healing work available on line. It's really scary just letting those feelings of so long ago well up and you feel the need to flee. But if you just stick with them, work through it, deal with it, it brings some relief and peace. I've got a pretty mad 5 year old in there, I grew up in a really toxic family. Getting in touch with those feelings, and they are SO strong, it's hard but darn it, if that's what it takes, maybe it's time to address it. I've been pushing them down for a long time.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Oh, and funny as it sounds, he is much smarter than me. I'm only something like 140 IQ, he is brilliant. But emotionally...no, he is very fragile there. I know God can do a mighty work in his life but only if he is willing. There's that whole free will thing involved.

Thank you for being a friend and taking the time to care.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

Applepies said:


> Oh, and funny as it sounds, he is much smarter than me. I'm only something like 140 IQ, he is brilliant. But emotionally...no, he is very fragile there. I know God can do a mighty work in his life but only if he is willing. There's that whole free will thing involved.
> 
> Thank you for being a friend and taking the time to care.


Only 140, well that's it then, you must be a bit dumb gal! LOL

That is a very high score, 100 is average by definition. And, I am absolutely convinced you are not unloveable. I hope your husband comes to his senses and realises what he is throwing away.

Take care


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Me, too, Quantum, me, too.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

This song has been stuck in my head all day. Haven't heard or thought about it in years...

You ask me if I love you
And I choke on my reply
I'd rather hurt you honestly
Than mislead you with a lie
And who am I to judge you
On what you say or do?
I'm only just beginning to see the real you

And sometimes when we touch
The honesty's too much
And I have to close my eyes and hide
I wanna hold you til I die
Til we both break down and cry
I wanna hold you till the fear in me subsides

Romance and all its strategy
Leaves me battling with my pride
But through the insecurity 
Some tenderness survives
I'm just another writer
Still trapped within my truth
A hesitant prize fighter
Still trapped within my youth

And sometimes when we touch
The honesty's too much
And I have to close my eyes and hide
I wanna hold you til I die
Til we both break down and cry
I wanna hold you till the fear in me subsides

At times I'd like to break you 
And drive you to your knees
At times I'd like to break through
And hold you endlessly

At times I understand you 
And I know how hard you've tried
I've watched while love commands you
And I've watched love pass you by

At times I think we're drifters
Still searching for a friend
A brother or a sister
But then the passion flares again

And sometimes when we touch
The honesty's too much
And I have to close my eyes and hide
I wanna hold you til I die
Til we both break down and cry
I wanna hold you till the fear in me subsides


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

aack. Such a maudlin song playing in my head. I remember when this song came out and couldn't stand the sappiness of it. What is happening to me?

How am I ever going to find fun loving people to attach to? Everyone is home, attached to computers. No one actually goes out anymore, we've become a society of home dwellers, addicted to on line games. Facebook? Please. Why do I have to be told that X is now friends with Y? Why? Can I comment, it is about time you two hooked up, I'm so happy that you've accepted each other's friendship?

Oh for those pre computer days, where we had to actually leave the house and talk face to face. We'll we ever return to those days or will they invent robotic love interests that meet our every need and never have a reason to actually go out the front door?

Do ya think, I'm entering an angry stage? (with a vengeance?)


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## Christine11 (Sep 13, 2010)

Applepies, I have been following your post here and I want to say: Keep your head up. I know it's not easy but you will get through this. I believe that you are not sure yourself if you should cut all ties and move on or if you should give in to the glimmer of hope (that everything might work out after all). It's like one day you believe everything will be okay and then the next day your brain is telling you that it's over. So that you are constantly struggling with yourself.

I don't know how bad the physical hurt was, only you know how the incident occurred and what your gut is telling you: Did he do this on purpose or not? We all weren't there. You made contact with him, the ball is now in his court.

You probably have a lot of thoughts creeping up going over various incidents, scenarios, outcomes, questions etc. but I can only tell you from personal experience that my thoughts have left me with more pain than help. It seems to get worse in you mind the more you think about it.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Thanks Christine. :hugs Sometimes you want to forget it all and have some fun. To laugh and let off some steam.

I asked him regarding our conversation in the shed, if he had come to a decision.

He responded that he is entering counseling in December.

This is what I prayed, that he get help. All glory to God for dh taking that step. Praying that whomever he will be seeing can truly help him.

I was considering asking dh to start meeting me on Sunday mornings for the bible teaching. We used to go every Sunday. Sort of a no pressure situation and just let the Holy Spirit wash over us.

I'll pray on it.


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## Christine11 (Sep 13, 2010)

Applepies, I think the church/bible part will really help. I just recently started to emerge myself in it and I have to say God has helped me make sense of some of the pain and that things happen for a reason.

I truly believe if the love is still there (and there was no physical hurt on purpose) it can be worked out. It might be a long and painful road but I put my trust in god. I think it is a good sign that he took the initiative to get help. He obviously sees that he overstepped the line and that he needs help. I would see that as a first step on his side.

I hope that he will make progress, probably slowly, but that would give you guys a fresh start. Now wouldn't it be nice if we could forget about all the baggage we carry around?


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## whynot (Apr 16, 2010)

Applepies said:


> I do tend to think ahead. Uncertainty is very uncomfortable to me. Seeing him packing up his stuff, really hard. He was here today packing some things from the shed. He's about done getting his stuff.
> 
> I went out to the shed and he is doing talking lite, about the weather, about anything that isn't too emotional. I told him I still love him very much and that he is my best friend. I said I'm hopeful we can work through this. He gave me a big hug and kissed my cheek. He said he would talk to someone, a counselor. I told him I'd give him some time to figure out what he wants and I will. I know he loves me but I don't know if we can resolve what got us to this point. He can be neglectful, I've been reading the fascinating womanhood book and trying the suggestions, it's a great book. I also have been reading the marriage builder site. We even did the emotional needs surveys and exchanged those. That was about a month or so ago.
> 
> ...


I am shocked to read this, and possibly not the way you may think. You had a discussion and disscussed that it was ok for him to go away (2 yeses), and the smoking thing was left at you wanting to do it and him not being ok with it (1 yes, 1 no). Then, while he was away, you smoked anyway? I dont ever condone violence, so that was wrong of him, but it was wrong of you to try to get away with something that was resolved as a no. When you are in a relationship and one person is not ok with something and one is, the no always wins out, fair or not. Its like having 50-50 custody of kids, neither parent can decide something for the child unless BOTH say yes. I hope this helps, I hope that this hasnt been the dynamic in your relationship for its entirity. 

You had mentioned you were going through something similar to my situation, but I dont see it. It seems you are blaming your husbands violence, and not seeing that you specifically went against your agreement bc you had thought you didnt reach one? Did you mean that you are like my husband bc its not my experience but is similar to my husbands. Agreements or discussions mean nothing, only what he wants to do means something. It took me years to figure out what was going on and with the help of a great therapist I have finally uncovered what I was beginning to believe was my fault as he told me so many times... in fact everything is my fault whether I did anything or not. Now I can understand it better. Im not trying to crush you, but please try to see both sides of your situation. If you are like my husband, I realize that will not be possible and I will have offended you terribly with this post. Anything that is fact based is a threat to BPD and it will destroy. Best of luck to you.


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## whynot (Apr 16, 2010)

Applepies said:


> I don't think it can be addressed. He has shut himself off from me. I sent him this email two days ago and received no response.
> 
> "Doing a lot of soul searching. Finding some answers.
> 
> ...


You know what he read when you sent this?... Blah, blah, you are bad, blah, bad, very bad, blah, blah. That is the beginning understanding I have of this BPD thing. I am impressed you have recognized the unhealthy part of need=love to you and perhaps the little miss vengence part didnt help either. I know there were things I did that were retaliatory as well, but love =love in my book and I really started to feel he was not loving me and was needing and disposing of me at whim. I guess we can enjoy reading each others posts and updates. You can update how separated life is going and I can let you know how staying married to someone like this is. Is the grass greener in either direction?


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok, fair enough.

Thanks but I don't agree with any of your assessment. I thought you would understand the neglect part and how hard that is to deal with..l guess you went on the attack on my behavior and no, I don't appreciate it. Sorry.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Christine11 said:


> Applepies, I think the church/bible part will really help. I just recently started to emerge myself in it and I have to say God has helped me make sense of some of the pain and that things happen for a reason.
> 
> I truly believe if the love is still there (and there was no physical hurt on purpose) it can be worked out. It might be a long and painful road but I put my trust in god. I think it is a good sign that he took the initiative to get help. He obviously sees that he overstepped the line and that he needs help. I would see that as a first step on his side.
> 
> I hope that he will make progress, probably slowly, but that would give you guys a fresh start. Now wouldn't it be nice if we could forget about all the baggage we carry around?


He's worked really hard to not release that anger over the years. His way of dealing with it, is to walk away and cool down. This time when he should of walked away, he didn't and I was blocked from escaping. I kept saying get away from me and he wouldn't, he shoved me back further and was yelling full force...it was basically all those emotions shoved down for months finally exploding into one hysterical moment. 

Really scary. It was like hold it back, force those feelings down for a long time until when it finally was set free, it was huge.

When you can't let feelings out, when you continually stuff them down, it sets up for a perfect storm. I was at a point of being fed up with my feelings never being important, my thoughts continually invalidated and swept aside. It was his way all the time and I had no voice. I was starting to feel invisible.

I had to start taking it back or lose myself. I had to stick up for me, for once.

I think maybe I will throw it out there, the offer to go with me if he wants. His fragility comes from never being validated when he was little, his opinion was never important so it's important now to always let him have a choice.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

whynot said:


> I am shocked to read this, and possibly not the way you may think. You had a discussion and disscussed that it was ok for him to go away (2 yeses), and the smoking thing was left at you wanting to do it and him not being ok with it (1 yes, 1 no). Then, while he was away, you smoked anyway? I dont ever condone violence, so that was wrong of him, but it was wrong of you to try to get away with something that was resolved as a no. When you are in a relationship and one person is not ok with something and one is, the no always wins out, fair or not. Its like having 50-50 custody of kids, neither parent can decide something for the child unless BOTH say yes. I hope this helps, I hope that this hasnt been the dynamic in your relationship for its entirity.


oh dear, is that how you really think? you are plain and simple wrong. Are you sure it's not an anti-smoking point you are raising? He said "I'd rather you didn't", not "You must not", and since when does one person have to OBEY the other unless you are in the army etc?

It wasn't resolved as a no, as you state, perhaps you should read what Applepies actually wrote.

And in any case, where does it state in the marriage vows that "I promise to obey on pain of being beaten up"? 

Perhaps you can tell us all what it's like to be in a marriage as a doormat. Sorry if I have offended you but I found your remarks to be offensive and unhelpful.

Anyway, always good to have different opinions I guess.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Quantumfilament said:


> oh dear, is that how you really think? you are plain and simple wrong. Are you sure it's not an anti-smoking point you are raising? He said "I'd rather you didn't", not "You must not", and since when does one person have to OBEY the other unless you are in the army etc?
> 
> It wasn't resolved as a no, as you state, perhaps you should read what Applepies actually wrote.
> 
> ...



While the whole thing was a bad experience, it did bring about acknowledgment to that which could not be named. Finally, the elephant in the room was addressed.

We both did wrong that night. We both handled things very poorly. But it did bring out the fact that we've got something that needs to be addressed.

I did want him to see what it was like to feel resentful. I was resentful of his constant abandonments. I was resentful that I smoked outside of the house for his comfort and he was not there more and more often. It made sense to me, not here, so why am I going out of my way for someone that can't be bothered to recipocate?

We do that for our kids because they are children. In an adult relationship, there has to be some give and take. Or resentment builds to an unsustainable level.

We don't get 'do overs', we get 'learn and do better next time'.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Dh again put money in my bank account. So confusing because we haven't spoken except for a couple short emails. 

I did ask him if he'd like to go to church with me. He replied that he'd let me know, he might have pager duty this weekend.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Rec'd a reply...

"Church Sunday should be OK. See you there. "

Lord, putting this in Your hands. Please guide us in Your perfect will.


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## Quantumfilament (Oct 30, 2010)

I hope your faith can mend your relationship. Fingers crossed.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Thank you Quantum, let's see we are in the book of Luke, I think Luke 7 this Sunday...going to check what it says.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

The Power Of A Praying Wife | Marriage Missions International


Have you ever been so mad at your husband that the last thing you wanted to do was pray for him? So have I. It’s hard to pray for someone when you’re angry or he’s hurt you. But that’s exactly what God wants us to do. If He asks us to pray for our enemies, how much more should we be praying for the person with whom we have become one and are supposed to love? But how do we get past the unforgiveness and critical attitude?

The first thing to do is be completely honest with God. In order to break down the walls in our hearts and smash the barriers that stop communication, we have to be totally up front with the Lord about our feelings. We don’t have to “pretty it up” for Him. He already knows the truth. He just wants to see if we’re willing to admit it and confess it as disobedience to His ways. If so, He then has a heart with which He can work.

If you’re angry at your husband, tell God. Don’t let it become a cancer that grows with each passing day. Don’t say, “I’m going to live my life and let him live his.” There’s a price to pay when we act entirely independently of one another. “Neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 11:11).

Instead say:

“Lord, nothing in me wants to pray for this man. I confess my anger, hurt, unforgiveness, disappointment, resentment, and hardness of heart toward him. Forgive me and create in me a clean heart and right spirit before You. Give me a new, positive, joyful, loving, forgiving attitude toward him. Where he has erred, reveal it to him and convict his heart about it. Lead him through the paths of repentance and deliverance. Help me not to hold myself apart from him emotionally, mentally, or physically because of unforgiveness. Where either of us needs to ask forgiveness of the other, help us to do so.

If there is something I’m not seeing that’s adding to this problem, reveal it to me and help me to understand it. Remove any wedge of confusion that has created misunderstanding or miscommunication. Where there is behavior that needs to change in either of us, I pray You would enable that change to happen. As much as I want to hang on to my anger toward him because I feel it’s justified, I want to do what You want. I release all those feelings to You. Give me a renewed sense of love for him and words to heal this situation.”

If you feel you’re able, try this little experiment and see what happens. Pray for your husband every day for a month using each one of the 30 areas of prayer I’ve included in this book. Pray a chapter a day. Ask God to pour out His blessings on him and fill you both with His love. See if your heart doesn’t soften toward him. Notice if his attitude toward you doesn’t change as well. Observe whether your relationship isn’t running more smoothly.

If you have trouble making that kind of prayer commitment, think of it from the Lord’s perspective. Seeing your husband through God’s eyes—not just as your husband, but as God’s child, a son whom the Lord loves—can be a great revelation. If someone called and asked you to pray for his or her son, you would do it, wouldn’t you? Well, God is asking.

There is a time for everything, it says in the Bible. and it ‘s never more true than in marriage, especially when it comes to the words we say. There is a time to speak and a time not to speak, and happy is the man whose wife can discern between the two.

Anyone who has been married for any length of time realizes that there are things that are better left unsaid. A wife has the ability to hurt her husband more deeply than anyone else can, and he can do the same to her. No matter how much apology, the words can not be erased. They can only be forgiven and that’s not always easy. Sometimes anything we say will only hinder the flow of what God wants to do, so it’s best to, well, shut up and pray.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

I didn't write this but want to save it...


God is perfect love. God loves us more than we could ever understand. God hates that which interferes with the love He has for His children. God loves to love His children. God loves to give every good and perfect gift to His children. God loves blessing His children. God has given commandements that ensure His children will be blessed. A Commandment is a tool of His love.

A Blessing is not a lucky charm. Blessing means to be made exceedingly happy. Through the use of our language we have turned it into some rabbits foot into our pocket or some mystical device that we utilize. Still some others have made it a meaningless turn of phrase to sound pious. 

But a blessing is a reaping of reward that comes from the natural outgrowth of living to God's design. 

God gave marriage to be a blessing. God gave woman to be a blessing to a man. Unfortunately not all the time do we see a blessing of God as a blessing because we do not necessarily feel "happy". In fact at times we can feel quite sad, burdened and overwhelmed. When these times come we must trust the word of God rather than our own feelings that are temporary to see clearly what the end could be. We must trust the perfecter that the blessing promised would be there if we would follow the commandements given as guidance for our own happiness.

God hates divorce. Why? Because it steals a blessing away from His child. God did not give a caveat/allowance for divorce contrary to popular opinion. God always hates it because it steals the blessing of marriage of His child and what He could do and the happiness He could give if He were allowed to perfect it. Nevertheless because of the hardnss of our hearts He knows it will happen. This so called allowance "except it be for fornication" was an exception for remarriage, not for divorce. Divorce is caused by hardness of hearts. Fornication is not the top cause for divorce. The number one reason for divorce is Hardness of hearts. With each divorce a blessing is destroyed. God can heal hearts. God can give a new partner but the pain of divorce will always shade the happiness in one's life as a natural consequence. Does God expect you to live in misery? Certainly not, but divorce is not His answer. A redeemed marriage is His answer and example throughout scripture. The only time divorce was a God answer was when He divorced Israel as a method to spur her back to Him to redeem His marriage to her. 

God wants you to be happy. God understands much better than you do what will make you happy. Much of scripture is written so you can live a happy fulfilled life. 

When we say I know better what will give me happiness than the Designer and Creator of our being then we are stating exactly what scripture warns us when God said Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? The pursuit of one's life must be the relationship with God. This must get fixed first. He will fix the relationships with others. 

When you freely chose that mate God made them your soulmate. You became one flesh. That mate became the Perfect will for your life. 

When Christ died for you He bought your freedom to choose blessing or bondage under no more threat of eternal damnation. You can choose bondage. You are allowed to make those choices but why? Why choose to go back to Egypt when He paid the sacrifice for your freedom?

I am not an old man yet but I am on my way. I have made many mistakes. I have not done all that I should but this one thing I do know and would testify under oath. God is true. His ways are perfect and full of blessings. Every time I chose His way the blessings were much more than I could ever imagine and "exceedingly" is an understatement of the riches of God's mercy. I won't go into detail right now but I have had several instances in my life where God took me to the top of my world in solitude while I was in a crowd and showed me in unbelievable detail all the blessings that He gave me and I sat in awe as I viewed what only He could have ever done with what I thought were the shattered pieces of my life. I would that all could expericence that. Fris I wish that you would one day experience that.

I urge everyone to choose those things prescribed to us by God as the things that will in the end make us exceedingly happy.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

More...

Was Jesus Exceedingly happy in the Garden of Gethsemane? 

And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. Mark 14:34-36

Doesn't sound Exceedingly Happy to me.

However.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

If we see Blessing and Obedience as a dichotemy we miss the entire picture of who God is and we need to understand Him better. Sometimes many times we transfer earthly relationships to God and we see Him in the poor light of our dissapointments with our experiences of human fraility. 

God said that obedience to a commandment was the love of God and that obedience is not Grievious. Meaning it is not a burden. I John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The Commandment is Love, The obedience is love, the reward is the natural blessing. 

We sometimes get the wrong Idea that God is just some old man that has his own archaic arbitrary ideas about how people should live and if they don't do what He says just for the sake that He said it he would tap his cane and damn them just because He can. That is not who God is and that was never the design of His divine plan.

If God thought obedience was more important than His love, not a warm fuzzy in His heart, but a love that was commendeth to such an extent that He died for you then why would He not just make you to obey? Because obedience is not the end result of what God desires. Obedience is the means. Love is the end result. And anything that takes away love. Anything that detroys the ability to give these good gifts of love and blessing to his children grieves Him.

What is the greatest commandment?

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. Mark 12:28 -33

One of the key things that changed my marriage was the day I realized that my wife was not just my wife but she was my Sister in Christ. In fact the day I realized that she was my sister and that my children as they entered adulthood were to be my brothers in Christ it changed my relationships with them immensily. I, for the first time realized my responsibility in care for them. I realized that as my sister I had to nurture her and love her not as a posession but as a child of God. She was Daddy's girl and my children were Daddy's children. 

Love my neighbor as myself? I was doing a poor job at loving my wife that much let alone a neighbor and yet God called us, we men of God to act as Christ did. We are to give ourselves up for our wives. Doormat? No, not even close. The strength of a true man is found in his prayer closet and a doormat does not lay down his own life for another, only a man can do that. A free man. A true man who volunteerly choose to lay it down. Sometimes it is difficult to see that joy that is set before you. Sometimes through the heartache and tears and the doubts Satan puts into your mind makes it difficult if not impossible to ever see the light. But Joy does come. Blessing does come.

By the Way. Divorce does not negate the commandment to love. Sorry but it does not work that way. You can love her married to her or divorced from her but the commandment stands either way. 

In all things Trust God.


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