# Devastated but.....



## Dday

I can't believe I'm here like many of you. I have been with my wife for 15 years married for 7.5. We have 3 kids 5-4-2 and are both 31. We have had a solid relationship until the last year and a half or so. 

We have talked about how things have gotten routine and not exciting but I just shrugged it off that we have been together for so long. Just about all of the intimate times were initiated by me but we would have sex 1-3 times a week which I was ok with. I saw plenty of signs that she was having an affair but I never thought she was capable of doing this. She is a great mother and just overall good person. 

Well, I totally underestimated her and D-day was on Good Friday. We were having drinks this Friday with another couple and me and the other husband ran out for more beer. We ended up having 2 drinks at the bar and headed back with the 12 pack. We got home and other wife was passed out on the couch. I go upstairs and find my wife passed out on the bed, holding a cell phone I have never seen. It was one of those cheap prepaid phones from Walmart. I woke her up and after a struggle I left with the phone and drove to an empty parking lot with it. 

She initially downplayed what happened but eventually admitted to a 9 month affair. I feel so stupid as I have been right so many times and questioned her about the other guy. 

Now the other guy is my wife's best friends brother, she was over there all of the time with the kids for play dates and slept over when they went out so she didn't have to drive home. I was weary about all of this and it became more frequent over the last couple of months. 

There are a ton more details as you can imagine but I just can't see spending the rest of my life without her. She already ended it with other guy and we want to make this work. How do you trust again? When will the pain stop?


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## totamm

Dday said:


> I woke her up and after a struggle I left with the phone and drove to an empty parking lot with it.


Why did you wake her up and struggle with her? Why not just take the phone out of her hands and go check it out. You'd be in much better shape knowing what you know without her knowing you know. You could have totally blindsided her with the evidence.



Dday said:


> How do you trust again?


You don't. You can never, ever completely trust another person because you just never know what they're thinking and what they might do. After infidelity, you've got to always keep tabs on them, because they're a proven cheater and a liar. 



Dday said:


> When will the pain stop?


Depends on several factors, namely what you decide to do. If you kick her to the curb, file for divorce and get her out of your life as soon as possible, give it a couple of years.

If you try to reconcile, figure 5-6 years of pain, rebuilding, healing, second guessing, false alarms, and lots of sleepless nights. And that's only if you're successful.



Dday said:


> She already ended it with other guy and we want to make this work.


She told you she ended it and she wants to make it work. It appears you believe her. So you already trust her again. That was fast!


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## Chaparral

More details. How do you KNOW its over. They lie about the cheating and they lie about taking it underground. She didn't "quit"till you caught her.


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## jim123

You are making the classic mistakes.

First forgiving too soon. Not seeking answers. Gviing her complete control Why shoud she actuall end her affair, you will always be there. You need her more than she needs you.

It is not over with the OM. She will continue to run into him.

You need to stand up for yourself and your marriage. Ask her to leave and see an attorney. If nothing else bring the paper work home.

She can no longer see her friend if you R. She knew and is part of this.

Do not rugsweep as you are doing. It never works.

Do not be weak.


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## MattMatt

jim123 said:


> You are making the classic mistakes.
> 
> First forgiving too soon. Not seeking answers. Gviing her complete control Why shoud she actuall end her affair, you will always be there. You need her more than she needs you.
> 
> It is not over with the OM. She will continue to run into him.
> 
> You need to stand up for yourself and your marriage. Ask her to leave and see an attorney. If nothing else bring the paper work home.
> 
> She can no longer see her friend if you R. She knew and is part of this.
> 
> Do not rugsweep as you are doing. It never works.
> 
> Do not be weak.


You will need counselling with a specialist in infidelity
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

chapparal said:


> More details. How do you KNOW its over. They lie about the cheating and they lie about taking it underground. She didn't "quit"till you caught her.


I appreciate the quick advice. I heard conversations with the OM and she ended it. I heard the conversation with the best friend and she was suspicious but didn't know what to say to stop it. My wife was apologizing to her bf for putting her in this position so I truly do not think she was part of this. I consider her best friend , and used to her brother as a friend. We have vacationed together, have done a lot of family activities together, birthday parties and so on. I even get along good with the OM and we would hang out. That is one of the more frustrating parts of the whole situation. I really have a desire to go over there and pummel him but I don't want to end up in jail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verpin zal

Dday said:


> She already ended it with other guy


Ah, there we find another one deep in shock, so deep that he doesn't know how to proceed..

My man, NC (no contact) letter. She writes it down, you read it up and send it off via mail or cargo.

Sooner than possible.


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## walkonmars

Her best friend is not any sort of friend to you. She must have known and approved of your wife's affair. She knew that it was harmful to your marriage and still helped your wife deceive you.

That friend has to go. Never again to be spoken to or seen by your wife or kids. 

The kids must know something too. I'm sure they spent a lot of time with him. Your wife must have formed a bond with the OM. No one continues to see someone for 9 months without that - especially since the meetups were becoming more frequent. 

How do you know it's over between them? Because she said so? Surrrre. 

Is the OM married? Do they have reason to be together through work or some other function? 

You don't know that half of it right now. It's too soon and your wife is in protective mode.


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## walkonmars

Dday said:


> ...I heard the conversation with the best friend and she was suspicious but didn't know what to say to stop it. My wife was apologizing to her bf for putting her in this position so I truly do not think she was part of this. ...


Verrrry doubtful. Your wife used her for cover and the bf didn't know? You don't think the bf's brother didn't have many, many conversations about what to do about his "love" for your wife? 

C'mon buddy. You're in shock right now - understandable - but snap out of it.


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## Dday

totamm said:


> Why did you wake her up and struggle with her? Why not just take the phone out of her hands and go check it out. You'd be in much better shape knowing what you know without her knowing you know. You could have totally blindsided her with the evidence


I picked up the phone and read the last message. "I need you here" pretty much all of the evidence I needed. Then I just reacted, she has since come clean about every painful detail. The struggle was more of her trying to get me to stay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

The conversations happen all the time then the affair starts up in a few months. Please read threads where this has happened. They will be in contact to make sure each is ok and it will start right back up. 

You must put everything on the line now. You can never nice your way through this. Ask her to leave and look into D. Start doing the 180 

The only time you can fix this is by being strong at first.

The BF must go, price of the A,

You have only one chance, do it right,


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## walkonmars

Dday said:


> I picked up the phone and read the last message.* "I need you here" *pretty much all of the evidence I needed. Then I just reacted, *she has since come clean about every painful detail*. The struggle was more of her trying to get me to stay.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I need you here" 
How many times did she leave the house after receiving that msg?
e went after her? 

Did she say how it started? He went after her? Or her - him? It didn't "just happen"

Did you go on vacation with the OM while the affair was going on? If so, think back to how the two of them acted around you. 

If they acted like nothing was suspicious then that 's an indication of the level of deceit. Can you imagine how YOU would have acted if you had even just KISSED another woman and she was around both of you at a later day? You would be shaking and sweating bullets, No?


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## Dday

walkonmars said:


> Her best friend is not any sort of friend to you. She must have known and approved of your wife's affair. She knew that it was harmful to your marriage and still helped your wife deceive you.
> 
> That friend has to go. Never again to be spoken to or seen by your wife or kids.
> 
> The kids must know something too. I'm sure they spent a lot of time with him. Your wife must have formed a bond with the OM. No one continues to see someone for 9 months without that - especially since the meetups were becoming more frequent.
> 
> How do you know it's over between them? Because she said so? Surrrre.
> 
> Is the OM married? Do they have reason to be together through work or some other function?
> 
> You don't know that half of it right now. It's too soon and your wife is in protective mode.


OM is kind of a loser, can't really explain it any other way. I had sympathy for him before.... His dad died a few years ago, got addicted to heroine, he has been in recovery for 2+ years on methadone treatments daily. No job, still lives at parents house. 

Best friend also lives at parents, she is a single mother. The bf is a good person and I'm telling you she didn't know for sure what was going on. 

The kids have no clue, they go over to play with bf's kid and are probably too young to pick up on anything. No doubt a bond was formed between them. I'm not trying to be naive and already laid out some rules about no contact, not going over there etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FryFish

dude... you CAUGHT her... she didnt come clean. You dont know a TENTH of what has gone on and your immediate perceived decision to sweep this under the run will mean your wife will cheat again.

She hasnt stopped with the first guy by the way.


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## walkonmars

Have your wife tested for STDs and have a drug test done on her too. Forget what she swears to. You need to protect your health and ensure she didn't partake of the methadone or worse. 

Take baby steps in getting past this or it will become an avalanche and bury you before you know it.


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## Dday

walkonmars said:


> "I need you here"
> How many times did she leave the house after receiving that msg?
> e went after her?
> 
> Did she say how it started? He went after her? Or her - him? It didn't "just happen"
> 
> Did you go on vacation with the OM while the affair was going on? If so, think back to how the two of them acted around you.
> 
> If they acted like nothing was suspicious then that 's an indication of the level of deceit. Can you imagine how YOU would have acted if you had even just KISSED another woman and she was around both of you at a later day? You would be shaking and sweating bullets, No?


From the details I have gotten it was more of a EA at that time (August) I definitely saw some red flags during the vacation and even questioned her. 

The level of deceit is unbelievable, the PA began in September and we were together for Xmas, New Years party, and other functions. He would drink beer with me, shake my hand all that stuff. I know my wife has the same responsibility here but she is paying for this mistake. He gets off with nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

FryFish said:


> dude... you CAUGHT her... she didnt come clean. You dont know a TENTH of what has gone on and your immediate perceived decision to sweep this under the run will mean your wife will cheat again.
> 
> She hasnt stopped with the first guy by the way.


My wife has never smoked a cigarette, no need for the drug test there. Although I do believe that is why the relationship grew. She is a special Ed teacher and he was a charity case. Plus she complained about our relationship and gave him a blueprint on how to get her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry

You should take a hard line on this. Very hard. You need to be ready to lose your marriage right now, if you want a glimmer of a chance to save it later. If you fail to take steps to assert yourself now, you are going to be incredibly angry and resentful down the road.

File for divorce now. Don't bother telling her, just have her served. Kick her out of the house if she is dumb or guilty enough to go. If not out of the house, at least get an external lockset and deadbolt even, and kick her out of the master bedroom. Tell her she needs to handwritten ano contact letter for both the other man, and his sister. Yes, she was in on it too, and she is toxic. You will approve it and send them. Registered mail is good, keep photocopies and the receipts so you have a papertrail if they break contact.

Her cheating was in no way your fault, nor any sort of a reflection on you. It is all on her. She has to want to come back. She needs to make that choice first, then you can decide what you want. Think hard, but take your time deciding. You'll probably keep changing your mind anyway. Start reading threads here, and glean what you can. You may start to see the patterns that emerge, and why yu get the advice that you do.

Sorry you are here. It's going to get worse for a while, but things will get better in time. They will.


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## Dday

I don't know what this 180 thing you are talking about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry

And man, stop assuming you know the first god damned thing about her anymore. You know nothing of who this person who killed your wife and happens to look like her, who took her place. You never would have believed she would cheat on you, did you? Well she did, and she lied to your face without batting an eyelash for 9 months. Think about that.


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## SadandAngry

google 180 and Michelle Weiner Davis, you'll find it. It will help you detach, so you can make better decisions, look after yourself, and be ready to do what ever is right for you and your kids.


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## walkonmars

Dday, 

That rancid baloney she served you about your faults was just that - baloney! She was justifying the unjustifiable by finding faults in you to rationalize her betrayal. 

No woman wants to consider themselves as unfaithful - so in her mind, she was finding reasons why "it wasn't working" with you. 

Justification for her affair. 

Also, many unfaithful wives just "let it all go" once they start an affair. They may start doing things they would never dream of doing in the presence or with their husbands. It's a thrill. A secret life. She was in one. Don't forget she didn't come clean - it would have gone on for a lot longer had you not discovered the phone. 

The burner phone is another indication of just how devious she was. Cunning. Still cunning and playing you like a fiddle.


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## Dday

What is the importance of the "no contact" letter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry

They are pretty much like drugs to each other, same things are at play in their brains. For her to get real, come back to normality, she has to quit cold turkey and go through withdrawal. 3 months is about right. You have no chance if they stay in contact, because they reinforce each other's fantasy, against which cold hard reality is unappealing.


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## SadandAngry

You can help by destroying the fantasy. By forcing reality into the situation by raining down the harsh consequences of their choices.


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## jim123

To put it on paper where she had to read it and so do you.

I would make her leave. You have to make her make a decision.

Do not let her blame shift to you. There is no excuse for an affair. If you are such a bad person and it is such a bad marriage then why does she want to stay now. What did OM do to fix her marriage.

Please read the threads like She cheated and I hate my life or Three strikes. Both were caught and continued after a brief stopage. Only when thrown out did it actually end.

She did not do this out of love for you nor because she is happy. Being caught did not change that. The only thing that may is the loss of everything in her life. If she wants druggie, fine but not with you kids,


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## Jasel

Dday said:


> My wife has never smoked a cigarette, no need for the drug test there. Although I do believe that is why the relationship grew. She is a special Ed teacher and he was a charity case. Plus she complained about our relationship and gave him a blueprint on how to get her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A word of advice. Don't make assumptions like that about her anymore. Especially after what your wife has done. I'm sure for most of your relationship you never thought she'd cheat on you either until you started questioning it and it turns out she did. This guy was a heroine addict and you don't know what kind of influence he had over her. He's already had sex with her. How do you know what other behavior she engaged in with him or what else she's done that you don't know about? She's shown she is quite capable of lying.

I'd have her take a drug test and get an STD check.


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## MattMatt

Dday said:


> My wife has never smoked a cigarette, no need for the drug test there. Although I do believe that is why the relationship grew. She is a special Ed teacher and he was a charity case. Plus she complained about our relationship and gave him a blueprint on how to get her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never smoked, huh? And she never had an affair, yes? And she's been with a drug addict so get HIV tests done for both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> OM is kind of a loser, can't really explain it any other way. I had sympathy for him before.... His dad died a few years ago, got addicted to heroine, he has been in recovery for 2+ years on methadone treatments daily. No job, still lives at parents house.
> 
> Best friend also lives at parents, she is a single mother. The bf is a good person and I'm telling you she didn't know for sure what was going on.
> 
> The kids have no clue, they go over to play with bf's kid and are probably too young to pick up on anything. No doubt a bond was formed between them. I'm not trying to be naive and already laid out some rules about no contact, not going over there etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are being naive. These affairs are like cancer. You have a chance to cut this cancer out. Don't blow it.

Cheaters NEVER tell the truth about the affair when first caught. If you think your wife is telling you the whole truth, you are mistaken. How do I know this? Look at the threads on this forum. See if you can find one single cheater who told the truth when first caught, or even in the first week. Out of all of the hundreds, maybe thousands, of threads here, see if you can find just one. JUST ONE. It just doesn't happen. 

Many, if not most, betrayed spouses say that the lying that happens AFTER the cheating is discovered and AFTER the affair has SUPPOSEDLY ended is much worse than the actual cheating itself.

Your wife went to some level of deceit to hide her affair. She got a burner phone. That is not unusual, but it is not typical. Most cheaters don't go to that level of effort to hide the affair.

Your wife's affair sounds very typical. You are lucky that other man has nothing to offer, otherwise she might be with him right now. She had the affair with him because it felt good to her, it was exciting, it was that new in-love feeling, and most of all because he made her feel good about herself, paid her a lot of attention, told her how hot and sexy she was, really made her feel sexually desired in a way she has not felt with you in quite a long time (not blaming you, it is just about impossible for your wife to feel this way about you after having been together so long, and there was not much you could have done about it).

You heard her end the affair. It is fairly common for the cheater to immediately agree to end the affair and then to appear to do so. But as a few days pass, a week, two weeks, and the situation calms down and things go back somewhat to normal (at least on the surface), the cheater and the other man begin to miss each other, think about each other, and wonder how each other is doing. Then, one reaches out with a text "are you ok?". That one contact escalates quickly and soon the affair is back on.

Here is what you have to do to make sure the cancer of the affair does not return to your marriage:

1. Have your wife HANDWRITE a "no contact" letter (ON PAPER) to the other man. The letter should contain no niceties, no sorry this happened, no I will always think of you fondly, no terms of endearment. It should state that your wife is horribly ashamed of her behavior and feels terrible about risking losing the love of the man she loves more than anyone else in the world, her husband, and that she can't believe she would risk all of that for someone like the other man. It should state that she does not want other man to contact her ever again and that if he does ever try to contact her again, she will file harassment charges against him. It ends with "signed" and your wife's name. Then you proofread what she wrote, make sure it's OK, and then you mail it certified mail to the other man. Your wife's willingness to write such a letter alone will tell you a lot about where she stands in relation to you and the other man. Keep a copy of the letter.

Here is a sample:

_Other Man First and Last Name:

I am terribly ashamed of my behavior and I feel horrible for having risked losing my husband, whose love I value more than anything in this world. Do not ever attempt to talk to me or contact me again in any way, shape, or form. If you do, I will file harrassment charges against you.

Signed,

Wife Name​_
2. Your wife has to understand what "no contact" means. If other man texts her, she does not respond and tells you immediately. If other man calls her she doesn't answer and tells you immediately. If she answers by mistake, she hangs up and tells you immediately. If other man comes to the door, she does not answer except to tell him to go away and she's calling the police, which she does immediately, then tells you immediately. Since they communicated by phone, she changes her phone number. If they communicated by Facebook, she deletes her account. At the very least, she blocks him on Facebook.

3. Other Man will use his sister's phone/accounts to contact your wife. Sorry to say, sister/best friend has to go to. It's unfortunate, it's not the best friend's fault, but it is your wife's fault. It's a foreseeable consequence of your wife's actions. I predict your wife will fight this particular consequence harder than any other, because your wife, although she had to supposedly end contact with other man, still sees all types of possibilities for keeping in touch with him through her best friend. Your wife will ask her friend, how is Other Man? Is he OK? Undoubtedly, other man will NOT be OK, which will make your wife all the more concerned for him and give her the strong desire to contact him to make sure he is OK, to comfort him. As long as your wife has contact with other man, even vicariously, it will be difficult for your wife to MOVE PAST the affair.

4. Your wife has to allow you to verify "no contact" by giving up access to all her devices/accounts, all passwords and NEVER deleting anything ever again, if she needs it deleted, she can ask you to delete it. Even browsing history. See if she is looking at other man's social media pages/accounts. As you obviously already know, all your wife has to do is get a secret phone (or any one of a thousand other ways that are just about impossible to detect) and all the monitoring doesn't prove a thing. 

That's why I recommend you buy a couple of voice-activated recorders and some heavy-duty velcro. Put one hin her car. Put another in the house where she is likely to talk when you are not around. Leave them in place and monitor them for at least a few weeks; three weeks should be enough. What you will find is that either (1) she doesn't do anything untrustworthy, and your faith in her is restored that much faster - good for your marriage; or (2) you catch her in contact with other man, or you find out new details about the affair yuou didn't know about from her conversations with confidants - also good for your marriage, in that you are not kept in the dark about her affair for another 9 months and you can take appropriate actions to end the affair.

Please take a look at some of the other threads here and see what others have experienced, and if they are any different than you.

Your kids are so young, they easily will meet and make new friends. Because of the close nature of the relationship with the other man, your wife's best friend must go, even if she didn't know what was going on. You have three young children to think about. Do what's necessary to save your marriage and your family, don't take half-hearted steps that could lead to the end of your marriage and family.


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## SaltInWound

MattMatt said:


> Never smoked, huh? And she never had an affair, yes? And she's been with a drug addict so get HIV tests done for both of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


wtfjusthappened is a poster who just started a thread last night. His wife had an affair. She never smoked or drank, yet she now does since the affair. People change to have more in common with the AP. It gives them more justification to say they are soul mates and leave you.


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> How do you trust again? When will the pain stop?


You trust again when she re-builds trust. You can't spy on her for the rest of her life, that would be horrible for your relationship. But putting a couple of voice-activated recorders in place for a few weeks is one of the biggest trust-builders you can get. If the recorders turn up no new lies or deceits and no evidence of renewed contact, the trust level increases quite a bit. If you find out she's lying or in contact, then at least you're not living in the dark another 9 months. I don't see a downside to it.


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## Dday

I do appreciate all of the comments but the drug testing and std comments aren't really necessary. I know that the OM is clean (std wise)and my wife isn't on drugs. Although I did bring up the std test during the admission. 

We have been very open with our feelings and like I said I got plenty of details about the affair I wish I never heard. I haven't stopped asking questions since I found out and she has been answering truthfully (I know what your thinking). There is really nothing else to lie about unless it continues. I really want this to work out just not sure how to get over the pain or how long it will last. 

My mind is made up that she is staying, we are looking into counseling tomorrow. From our conversations she is willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> I appreciate the quick advice. I heard conversations with the OM and she ended it. I heard the conversation with the best friend and she was suspicious but didn't know what to say to stop it. My wife was apologizing to her bf for putting her in this position so I truly do not think she was part of this. I consider her best friend , and used to her brother as a friend. We have vacationed together, have done a lot of family activities together, birthday parties and so on. I even get along good with the OM and we would hang out. That is one of the more frustrating parts of the whole situation. I really have a desire to go over there and pummel him but I don't want to end up in jail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ask your wife directly, did your friend know about this while it was going on.

Then, call up your wife's friend and ask her directly if she knew about the affair while it was going on.

So many lies are allowed to perpetuate just because people feel uncomfortable asking the questions that need to be asked.

People telling the truth will almost always answer a question directly: Did you know about my wife's affair while it was going on? "No, I thought something was funny but I didn't know for sure."

People lying will almost always answer a question with a non-responsive answer: Did you know about my wife's affair while it was going on? "How would I know?" or "I don't keep track of everything my brother does" or "I had no reason to suspect anything."

This is inconsequential anyway, because if you really want to make sure your marriage is safe, for the sake of your children, you will cut this friend out of your lives regardless of whether or not she knew. This friend is an open doorway to the other man, it is like a cancer patient going back to behaviors that possibly could lead to a relapse.


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> I do appreciate all of the comments but the drug testing and std comments aren't really necessary. I know that the OM is clean (std wise)and my wife isn't on drugs. Although I did bring up the std test during the admission.
> 
> We have been very open with our feelings and like I said I got plenty of details about the affair I wish I never heard. I haven't stopped asking questions since I found out and *she has been answering truthfully (I know what your thinking). *There is really nothing else to lie about unless it continues. I really want this to work out just not sure how to get over the pain or how long it will last.
> 
> My mind is made up that she is staying, we are looking into counseling tomorrow. From our conversations she is willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We know what you're thinking also, as many, if not most of us, have posted the same foolish statements at one time.


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## SadandAngry

At least spend your money wisely, make it individual counselling, not both of you yet.


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## TimesOfChange

Dday said:


> I do appreciate all of the comments but the drug testing and std comments aren't really necessary. I know that the OM is clean (std wise)and my wife isn't on drugs. Although I did bring up the std test during the admission.
> 
> We have been very open with our feelings and like I said I got plenty of details about the affair I wish I never heard. I haven't stopped asking questions since I found out and she has been answering truthfully (I know what your thinking). There is really nothing else to lie about unless it continues. I really want this to work out just not sure how to get over the pain or how long it will last.
> 
> My mind is made up that she is staying, we are looking into counseling tomorrow. From our conversations she is willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're in shock, cause it's fresh and you're forgiving her way to fast. 
"I know that the OM is clean (std wise)and my wife isn't on drugs." My friend you know NOTHING, let her take those tests, no ifs or buts. 
Do you for real think that she has told you the truth? Wrong! Right now, you're dealing with a whole new side of her. 

All you know is that you know nothing, you're just lookin at the tip of the iceberg.


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## southernsurf

Dday _ read everything and its clear you are in complete denial and she is in complete control. You can't just let her say I'm sorry and then continue on as usual. I understand your position to keep her but if you don't shake her world to the bone and get in control your marriage will be over in 5 yrs top - mark my word. Expose and put her out, let her see what life is like on the outside. If you don't send a message you are in real trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## totallyunexpected

walkonmars said:


> Dday,
> 
> The burner phone is another indication of just how devious she was. Cunning. Still cunning and playing you like a fiddle.


Yes, this is an indication of how careful she has been to cover her tracks. Your wife is more cunning than probably the majority of cheaters. Not many go so far as to have a secret phone. Don't trust a word out of her mouth. Not. A. Word. 

You are still in shock and denial. Denial that she is as horrible a person as you will later realize her to be. Denial that she isn't the same woman you fell in love with. Believe me, I know. I've been through the roller coaster - and am still on it. There is soooo much more I know now than Dday (four months ago)... so much I was wrong about at first. 

Listen to the people giving you advice here. They REALLY know what they are talking about. All the assumptions you have been operating on have gone out the window.

Please pplease read the newbie link: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Hang in there. Stick to TAM when you can't stand how upside down your world has become. I'm sorry that you've been cheated of a life you thought you had.


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## southernsurf

Think about it this way - she took her pants off willingly many times and not once thought enough of you to stop. She is only telling you now what you need to hear to make her world safe again, then its back in action
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SaltInWound

totallyunexpected said:


> Yes, this is an indication of how careful she has been to cover her tracks. Your wife is more cunning than probably the majority of cheaters. *Not many go so far as to have a secret phone*. Don't trust a word out of her mouth. Not. A. Word.


While the burner phone is common, doesn't that generally appear AFTER the affair has been discovered and the cheater takes it underground? I would suspect she is getting tips from someone who already knows this stuff. Toxic friends.


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## SadandAngry

Dday said:


> I do appreciate all of the comments but the drug testing and std comments aren't really necessary. I know that the OM is clean (std wise)and my wife isn't on drugs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you willing to bet your life or your health on that? Really? 

1. You need to know your own status, you've been put at risk, relatively very high risk. To not get tested yourself would be almost criminally stupid.

2. She put herself at even higher risk! Do not have sex with her until she has proven herself free of infection.

3. Getting tested really hammers home the gravity of what she has done, to both of you, and you both need that. Sitting in the clinic, answering the questions, having the samples taken, oh yeah, priceless man, priceless.

4. The drug test is just icing on the cake, and who knows what will turn up? You might be surprised. Either way, it sends another strong message about the state of her character, and that's useful.


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## bryanp

The OM is a former heroin addict and has been having sex with your wife and you stated that there is no need for STD testing because he is clean?.........Are you our of your mind? Who says he is clean? Is it your wife?

Your wife is in total damage control. If the roles were reversed would she have been so accepting and forgiving as you have been? You have been played, humiliated and disrespected in the worst possible way and it sounds like you are just trying to rug sweep it away. Your wife now knows that apparently there are no consequences to screwing another man who is a lowlife without protection and apparently without consequences from you. What kind of a message does that send her? I wish you luck because it sounds like you will need it. Your wife has no respect for you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## Will_Kane

SaltInWound said:


> While the burner phone is common, doesn't that generally appear AFTER the affair has been discovered and the cheater takes it underground? I would suspect she is getting tips from someone who already knows this stuff. Toxic friends.


He and his wife must have had complete access to each other's phones and it was easier for her to get the burner phone than to raise suspicion by password protecting the phone.

Or, maybe he paid the phone bill and she knew he actually looked at the calls/texts on the bill.

Or, maybe his suspicions at the red flags included something on the phone, which made her decide to ge the burner phone.

Because you're right, usually the burner phone only comes into play after the cheater knows the primary phone is being monitored.


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## Decorum

Dday,
I am sorry you are here.
You are receiving outstanding advice from posters who have seen this all before. It follows a script, almost word for word.

Men of action do best in these situations, she must have consequences.

Right now you want to excuse her and understand her, this is not the time for that, you have a small window here to help her be truly remorseful (as we define it here) and maybe save and prevent this.

The om is not you problem, he was not standing next to you when you made you vows, your wife was!

Please follow the advice you are being given, put some trust in the posts that point out what you are not seeing, you need to hear this.

I wish you well,
Take care!


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## totallyunexpected

bryanp said:


> The OM is a former heroin addict and has been having sex with your wife and you stated that there is no need for STD testing because he is clean?.........Are you our of your mind? Who says he is clean? Is it your wife?
> 
> Your wife is in total damage control. If the roles were reversed would she have been so accepting and forgiving as you have been? You have been played, humiliated and disrespected in the worst possible way and it sounds like you are just trying to rug sweep it away. Your wife now knows that apparently there are no consequences to screwing another man who is a lowlife without protection and apparently without consequences from you. What kind of a message does that send her? I wish you luck because it sounds like you will need it. Your wife has no respect for you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


Dday, I wish you could hear our screams! If you rugsweep, you will FOR SURE be hurt horribly again in the future by repeated Ddays and your wife will not respect a man who has no self-respect. I'm so worried about you. You are so oblivious to the fact that you are doing everything wrong. To be frank, you're like a middle schooler who thinks they have the whole world figured out. Give it time, they realize how much they didn't know! Give it time and you will see. I just hope you are not too late. 

And for goodness sake, have her take the STD test. You are really irrational right now. It's not your fault, but please let us help you save yourself and your marriage (if it's salvageable).


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## southernsurf

Dday making her take the std test is a classic way to embarass her and put it in her face what she has done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum

Yep,
The deception and disrespection of this is off the charts.

Your wife went to great pains to hide this from you, if you had not caught her, she would be with him again soon.



When will the pain go away?
You are going to go through the stages of grief, look them up.

If you think you are in pain now and angry now, wait, it gets much worse! You will not recognize yourself in 6 months, especially if you stay with her. But it may be worth it in the long run, that is up to you,

Usually its best not to decide this early that you want to reconcile, that is an emotional response, and what you really need is to stay objective, so that you can make good decisions from a strong position.

Its a bit like disciplining a child.

A lot of the success or failure of your future with this woman depends on your decisions, she chose someone else, went outside her marriage.

You deserved better than that, dont be so quick to let her off the hook, if you love her that let her feel the pain of what she has done. You will have to feel it no matter what.

Take care!


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## JMGrey

Dday said:


> I can't believe I'm here like many of you. I have been with my wife for 15 years married for 7.5. We have 3 kids 5-4-2 and are both 31. We have had a solid relationship until the last year and a half or so.
> 
> We have talked about how things have gotten routine and not exciting but I just shrugged it off that we have been together for so long. Just about all of the intimate times were initiated by me but we would have sex 1-3 times a week which I was ok with. I saw plenty of signs that she was having an affair but I never thought she was capable of doing this. She is a great mother and just overall good person.
> 
> Well, I totally underestimated her and D-day was on Good Friday. We were having drinks this Friday with another couple and me and the other husband ran out for more beer. We ended up having 2 drinks at the bar and headed back with the 12 pack. We got home and other wife was passed out on the couch. I go upstairs and find my wife passed out on the bed, holding a cell phone I have never seen. It was one of those cheap prepaid phones from Walmart. I woke her up and after a struggle I left with the phone and drove to an empty parking lot with it.
> 
> She initially downplayed what happened but eventually admitted to a 9 month affair. I feel so stupid as I have been right so many times and questioned her about the other guy.
> 
> Now the other guy is my wife's best friends brother, she was over there all of the time with the kids for play dates and slept over when they went out so she didn't have to drive home. I was weary about all of this and it became more frequent over the last couple of months.
> 
> There are a ton more details as you can imagine but I just can't see spending the rest of my life without her. She already ended it with other guy and we want to make this work. How do you trust again? When will the pain stop?


Okay, so based on your responses so far you've committed 100% to reconciliation, and it seems that the only reason you've even posted on here is to find out when your perfectly logical thoughts and feelings of betrayal and mistrust, in response to your wife's blatant infidelity, are going to stop wrecking your rather gutless and self-serving co-signing on her rugsweeping.

They won't ever because however much your conscious, "modern" mind wants to curl up in a ball on your wife's lap and get back to your idyllic ignorance before you found out that other men, of much less worth, were penetrating her gleefully and regularly, the lizard brain, the hunter-gatherer instinct that is still inside each man, knows the score. It says do not trust, do not settle, do not waver. She does not respect herself or her marriage. She does not respect you as her husband or the father of her children. Incidentally, with false paternity being at least 13% and nearer 30% anecdotally, I suggest paternity tests all around. She does not love you or her kids more than superficially. If she did, she would not have sacrificed the stability and sanctity of home and family for a jobless drug-addict still mooching off of his parents.

You say that we're wrong about your wife, that somehow she's different the the dozens of other wayward spouses that we deal with week in and out her at CWI. She's not, because we've heard your story so many times that we don't need to be Nostradamus to know how this is going to play out. At best, when you found out, she still selfishly respected your role as provider and she understood what she had to lose there. Your rug-sweeping is going to destroy that last bastion of respect. She's going to know that she can cuckold you with impunity and, having learned from her mistakes, you'll probably never find out about it until she manages to land another provider of equal or greater value. This will probably only happen after your kids or grown, because what piece of sh!t that shags another man's wife is willing to raise her kids? So once they're out of the house, you'll be on the dark side of forty, and one day you'll get the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech, a month later you get served, and six months after that you'll be a divorcé, living in a empty house that you had to pay for twice (when you bought it, and when you bought her half in the divorce), seeing your kids when they feel like it and facing the last twenty years or so of your life alone because you realize that you've been an idiot about women for two decades and you can't bear the though of ever trusting one again.

Or you can take control of your life right now and solve the problem with the kind of decisiveness and authority that your wife has gone looking for in other men. Your choice.


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## NewM

His sister was in on it,there is no way your wife was having an affair with him in same house without his sister knowing it.


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## verpin zal

Dday, wake up from your denial sleep.. NOW.

STD test. If not for her, for you. Listen to us.


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## aug

Dday said:


> Well, I totally underestimated her and* D-day was on Good Friday.* ...
> 
> 
> There are a ton more details as you can imagine but I just can't see spending the rest of my life without her. *She already ended it with other guy and we want to make this work.* How do you trust again? When will the pain stop?



Good Friday was 2 days ago. This is too quick for your wife to turn off her emotional and sexual needs for her lover. Especially one she had a long term affair with. And she would had continued, had you not caught her.

If she can turn her needs off that quickly, she has other major issues beside her affair. In which case, you may want to explore her sociological or psychological pathology, if you so inclined to stay with her.

Rather, I think this will play out in months, if not in years.


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## Dday

aug said:


> Good Friday was 2 days ago. This is too quick for your wife to turn off her emotional and sexual needs for her lover. Especially one she had a long term affair with. And she would had continued, had you not caught her.
> 
> If she can turn her needs off that quickly, she has other major issues beside her affair. In which case, you may want to explore her sociological or psychological pathology, if you so inclined to stay with her.
> 
> Rather, I think this will play out in months, if not in years.


I am reading every comment and taking them seriously. I just don't see how some of the comments will help save this marriage. Maybe you guys are right and it is not savable or worth saving. In my mind and heart, saving the marriage is what want in the long term. She is not holding back any detail of the affair, how often when where how. I needed to know, I'm not sure why but she told me everything. I listened to the conversation with the best friend and it was emotional and very sincere. 

I threatened to expose the affair to everyone because I thought she may be staying to save her reputation and worried about what others think. She didn't care and would try to work it out either way. I still have a fear that it is only because of the kids but time will tell I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TimesOfChange

Dday said:


> I am reading every comment and taking them seriously. I just don't see how some of the comments will help save this marriage. Maybe you guys are right and it is not savable or worth saving. In my mind and heart, saving the marriage is what want in the long term. She is not holding back any detail of the affair, how often when where how. I needed to know, I'm not sure why but she told me everything. I listened to the conversation with the best friend and it was emotional and very sincere.
> 
> I threatened to expose the affair to everyone because I thought she may be staying to save her reputation and worried about what others think. She didn't care and would try to work it out either way. I still have a fear that it is only because of the kids but time will tell I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right now in the "If i'm nice to her, she'll be nice to me, phase." You think that any harsh reaction from you might break this fragile truce. Wrong! 
You must be willing to loose your marriage in order to save it. And don't threaten her, you're just warning her and giving her time to make plans.


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## Decorum

This marriage is as saveable as you both want it to be.

Many betrayed husbands wish their wives would be where yours is when confronted. It is a very good sign!

But our concern is for how you handle this.

Experience tells me that your wife was not planning to leave you, she was just getting some excitement and sex on the side. She was enjoying the attention. What we call cake eating.

She may indeed want to stay with you, but I promise you that she has lost respect for you. How you handle this can make all the difference there. We have a lot to say to you about that.

The posters on your thread are some of the best I have seen here and they truly want to help. (Yes you will get a few flyers).

*Btw read the newbie thread on the coping with infidelity section!!!*

Get the book A married mans sex life (AMMSLP) it not a sex manual its about staying attractive to your spouse after marriage, we recomend it all the time.

Read the website and book No more Mr nice guy as well.

You wife is in a good spot but I/we think you want to rugsweep and move to reconcilation too quickly, plus you have NOOOO idea how hard that is going to be.

I hope you can work this out, this is a pro marriage support forum.

Just give yourself some time to absorb what has happened and to move past the shock, which I promise that you are in.

Thats all it is, dont be put off, there are some really good people here, and you will find a consensus here.

Exposure
pollygraph
Intell gathering
std tests
even dna when called for all make sense and have their place, give us a chance to get to know you and your situation as well.

Take care!


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## Dday

Decorum said:


> This marriage is as saveable as you both want it to be.
> 
> Many betrayed husbands wish their wives would be where your is when confronted. It is a very good sign!
> 
> But our concern is for how you habdle this.
> 
> Experience telles me that your wife was not planning to leave you, she was just getting some excitement and sex on the side. She was enjoying the attention. What we call cake eating.
> 
> She may indeed want to stay with you, but I promise you that she has lost respect for you. How you handle this can make all the difference there. We have a lot to say to you about that.
> 
> The posters on your thread are some of the best I have seen here and they truly want to help. (Yes you will get a few flyers).
> 
> Btw read the newbie thread on the coping with infidelity section!!!
> 
> Get the book A married mans sex life (AMMSLP) it not a sex manual its about staying attractive to your spouse after marriage, we recomend it akk the time.
> 
> Read the website and book No more r nice guy as well.
> 
> You wife is in a good spot but I/we think you want to rugsweep and move to reconcilation too quickly, plus you have NOOOO idea how hard that is going to be.
> 
> I hope you can work this out, this is a pro marriage support forum.
> 
> Just give yourself some time to absorb what has happened and to move past the shock, which I promise that you are in.
> 
> Thats all it is, dont be put off, there are some really good people here, and you will find a consensus here.
> 
> Exposure
> pollygraph
> Intell gathering
> std tests
> even dna when called for all make sense and have their place, give us a chance to get to know you and your situation as well.
> 
> Take care!


Thank you for that reply, I will check out the books. 

I will post any information you guys are looking for that you think may help. 

I did initially tell her to leave and get out. I flipped out throwing stuff when she finally admitted the details. I am a quick thinker and have a very calm personality so I calmed down pretty quick but trust me the last 48 hours have not been easy for my wife or me. I was able to calm down and we talked about what we wanted long term and agreed on working on a future together. I don't think I am being a push over but I guess I may be. I said some very hurtful things to her way out of character for me, like calling her a ****, ***** whatever came to my mind. 

I will surely update this thread as time goes as it gives me several different perspectives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum

*Btw read the newbie thread on the coping with infidelity section!!!*


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## Dday

What is the newbie thread? I searched for it but can't find it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum

Here you go

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Read this as well

The Healing Heart: The 180


and the third post down (on newbie thread) is a post by chapparal, he post this often, it is for a wayward spouse on how to help you heal if she is truly remorseful.



Take care!


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## FryFish

Dday, being nice to her right now will NOT save your marriage... Neither will being "all in"... Or at least her thinking you are all in... She has to THINK you have one foot out the door or she wont believe she could ever lose you... if she doesnt believe she could ever lose you she has NO REASON AT ALL to actually be faithful in the future...

If you shrug off half the advice you are getting here you WILL lose your wife... If you take hte advice you MIGHT lose your wife... well, to be honest you already lost her...

Get ****ing std tests done!!! Saying no to that advice is not just stupid its dangerous.


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## Chaparral

Std test and the drug test is to prove herself and let her know you do not and can not trust anything about her. She has put you in the worse palcae a woman can put a man. Few actually make reconcilliation work. Many waywards start back up. Its only been a few days. You are both in shock. Her hamster brain hasn't had a chance to start making the excuses for the affair and why she can resume it when the heat is off.

The drug test is paramount in showing her nothing about her can be relied upon at this moment. She drinks too much and passes out. You said she goes out and stays at her sisters so she doesn't have to drive. Girls night out.........never works out for married girls. She drinks and bags her boyfriend who is on drugs. Lovers, especially drunk lovers share everything. 

In thaousands of threads there has not been one case where the wayward spouse came clean, even the ones that it was only for a bit of fun and had no intention of destroying her family.

Here is a link to the newbie thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-3.html

Downlaod or order the two books linked below. MMSLP is for men, the other book is for you both.


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## Chaparral

Here are the wayward spouse instructions, study them with your wife, it will show her what yu are going through. Print them off, do not let her know about this site. You have a lot to do and she doesn't need to know that.

_Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always._


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## Shaggy

Look, this was a very seriously planned affair, not her having a quick grope.

She actually went to the bother and expense to have a burner phone, use it for months, keeping it charged paid for and out of sight.

Do you think she went to all that trouble for a simple affair that she is just going to stop , like that?

Then there is the OM, a heroin addict. You are being over the top naive to think she didn't dabble with smoking and even other drugs with him. The guy is a looser druggie, he loves the stuff and would share it with her. Smoking for sure, and likely pot and even meth.

Don't be naive and make big mistakes. Get her drug tested that way you will know for sure,

As for the bf and going over there. Well that's gone forever, sorry bro, but that's a consequence of her choice to cheat. That's the environment where she carried other affair, and it's now gone from her life forever if she wants to stay married.

Again, she was pretty hardcore in this affair, makes me think it isn't her first affair? I mean who goes out an gets a burner phone to contact her druggy bf if its her first affair.

Sorry, bro but you do not yet have the whole story or truth.

Drug test ASAP, and a polygraph for starters.


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## seasalt

Jeremiah chpt 5, verse 21-

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Get the STD tests and keep your head up and your wits about you.

Seasalt


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## TRy

Dday said:


> I am a quick thinker and have a very calm personality so I calmed down pretty quick but trust me the last 48 hours have not been easy for my wife or me.


 It has only been 48 hours, yet your are already sweeping it under the rug and trying to calm down and get over it. Worse yet, you are equating your suffering for have been cheated on, to your wife's suffering, as if being the caught cheater makes her a victim of the affair too. News flash: you are the victim and she is the perpetrator. Also, contrary to what you just said, getting caught has been way easier on her than she ever imagined possible. 



Dday said:


> I was able to calm down and we talked about what we wanted long term and agreed on working on a future together. I don't think I am being a push over but I guess I may be. I said some very hurtful things to her way out of character for me, like calling her a ****, ***** whatever came to my mind.


 She is thinking to herself "wow, you mean that is it? He calls me a few names and then calms himself down, forgives me, and commits to me again long term? That was just too easy. This guy is so much more into me than I am to him, that no matter what I do he will never leave me." Almost no time for you to grieve. Little fear that you would even think about ending the marraige over the cheating. No requirement that she beg for forgiveness and work to prove that she is worthy of another chance. She even gets to stay friends with the sister of the affair partner, who had to have at least suspected as she was use to enable the affair. No consequences whatsoever.

Without consequences and acts of remorse, there can not be true long term reconciliation. At the very least you should tell her that now that you have thought it over more, that you cannot guarantee that you will stay in the marraige. That she needs to give you time to think things through, and that if she wants to try to save the marraige, that she will be willing to do the heavy lifting in earning your trust and forgiveness back. 

Also, tell her that one of the consequences of her cheating is that not only is she to have full no contact with the other man, but she must also go full no contact with the other man' sister, as you cannot take the chance, however small, that she was a willing enabler of the cheating. If she says that you are being unfair, tell her that this is not as unfair as her cheating, and that this is what you mean by her doing the heavy lifting in earning your trust and forgiveness back. Additionally, she must agree to permanent full transparency (which includes all passwords) without complaint; tell her that as an act of good faith, you will also agree to the same permanent full transparency, as it is not a punishment but a safeguard of the marraige.


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## totallyunexpected

Dday said:


> I am reading every comment and taking them seriously. I just don't see how some of the comments will help save this marriage. Maybe you guys are right and it is not savable or worth saving. In my mind and heart, saving the marriage is what want in the long term. She is not holding back any detail of the affair, how often when where how. I needed to know, I'm not sure why but she told me everything. I listened to the conversation with the best friend and it was emotional and very sincere.
> 
> I threatened to expose the affair to everyone because I thought she may be staying to save her reputation and worried about what others think. She didn't care and would try to work it out either way. I still have a fear that it is only because of the kids but time will tell I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Dday,

I'm glad you are taking all these comments seriously. Honestly, two days is way way to soon to be able to even begin to make sense of the mess you are in. 

One thing that helped me was to realize that I did not need to make any decisions immediately. You seem to interpret immediately communicating your intent to work on the marriage as the best route to saving it. Believe us, we've seen wayyyy to many stories here to know that trying to reconcile too soon, trying to be "nice" in the hope that the wayward will see what a great partner they have, or "rugsweeping" NEVER NEVER works. It simply will _not_ save your marriage. It's counter-intuitive, but the way to save your marriage is to be willing to lose it. You have to be mentally prepared to divorce in order for her to realize that she wants you. Messed up - I know.

What we are trying to tell you is how you have the best chance of saving your marriage (if you want that). Interestingly, whether you choose to reconcile or divorce - the optimal strategy is the same. It is only when a wayward spouse "gets" the seriousness of the situation that they _may_ be shocked into changing their behavior.

The reason that you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it is related to the selfish nature of affairs and cheaters. They do not change their behavior because they see you hurting. (If they did had that much empathy, they wouldn't have cheated in the first place!) Rather they change only when they themselves are about to lose something.

Notice what motivated change for my wayward husband:

He sees how Dday1 and Dday 2 crashes my world. I fall apart. I am an emotional wreck. He continues his behavior - albeit he is more careful. He "is sorry" but total remorse is not there. Defensiveness overrides all. Note that he seemed really remorseful after Dday 1 and I think he was clean for a while, but I naively rugswept and he eventually returned to wayward behavior but was more careful.

Dday 3 I find a search for strip clubs while we are supposedly reconciling. I am not hurt nearly as much as the first rounds. I've built armor around my soul by this point. He on the other hand, after I print the divorce papers and calmly explain I am done, becames a total emotional wreck. He is trying to do everything possible to save our marriage at this point. He's finally changed and is doing all the right things. (Though I've given up on believing a happy future is possible together.)

His behavior ONLY changed when his personal pain increased. His behavior was unrelated to my pain. 

Are you beginning to see the distorted logic of a cheater? They are quite selfish, even the ones who are still good people (beyond their utterly cruel behavior). It's all about them. So you have to crush their world and make them "get" what they are throwing away. They have to realize that they are ABOUT TO LOSE EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, they don't buy threats or wavering. Somehow they only "get it" when we are seriously ready to go.

I know we are overwhelming you with this information. Digest it as you can. Go back and re-read your total thread as time wears on and as your perspective changes/grows. You do not have to make any decisions about your future right now. Your main concern should be making it through one day at a time. It's okay to tell your wife you're not sure whether you want to stay or not, that you need some time to think. All the assumptions you previously operated on unreliable.

I really hope this helps. Sorry if we appear hard on you. We really have your best interest in mind and this is a cumulative community of wisdom (very painfully learned) and experience that really does have the best advice.


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## MattMatt

Dday said:


> I do appreciate all of the comments but the drug testing and std comments aren't really necessary_*. I know that the OM is clean (std wise)*_nd my wife isn't on drugs. Although I did bring up the std test during the admission.
> 
> We have been very open with our feelings and like I said I got plenty of details about the affair I wish I never heard. I haven't stopped asking questions since I found out and she has been answering truthfully (I know what your thinking). There is really nothing else to lie about unless it continues. I really want this to work out just not sure how to get over the pain or how long it will last.
> 
> My mind is made up that she is staying, we are looking into counseling tomorrow. From our conversations she is willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*
How do you know he is clean*? If he is a heroin addict, chances are he used a needle. A shared needle. HIV, Hepatitis, etc.,


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## walkonmars

totallyunexpected wrote a very good post. Excellent in fact.


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## Acabado

Very soon the reality of the fact she made you socialize with this scum bag while she was banging him will sink.
Can you imagine the glances, the smiles, the inside jokes? Did you pay him the beers? What about texting and talking about it and perhaps getting off on this?
Imagine what it takes for someone doing this. The level of disrespect?
I'm with shaggy. She's too used to it for being the first time.

Please, please, STD tests ASAP, both of you. Imagine they probably did it and whithin hours you too.

And please, put in place every home made snooping tool you can. Ensure they don't go undergrounf, conoct stories, etc. A secret phone means tons of texting and phone calls, dayly, hourly. It's rare they won't reconect. Very soon. Affair are very addictive, going cold turkey is not easy.


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## Chaparral

There ar several stages of grief. At this point you are in denial. Make no decisions and make no promises.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Alright OP. You say you got all the details. Did she have unprotected sex with him? Did he ejaculate inside her? If so, even if it was unprotected only and he deposited his stuff somewhere else, you NEED an STD test. The guy is a freakin' heroine addict, right? 

If you really want to lay out consequences for this affair, your wife needs to go NC with the OM AND her best friend. Since your wife's friend lives at her parent's house, there is no guarantee that your wife will be able to visit the best friend without the risk of running into the loser drug using OM. So your wife has to lose both in order to save this marriage for starters. If she complains, I'd tell her outright that her friend cannot guarantee that she will be able to keep the brother away from her. 

Also, I echo the concerns of others here. She was pretty cold and calculating with this affair. Even if you are getting a lot of the truth, be aware that there may have been others in the past or others going on even now.


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## Openminded

If you intend to R you need to first accept that the old marriage is gone. You may have a new marriage but it won't be the same one you had before. Getting trust back is difficult for some and impossible for others. 

If you don't truly resolve this issue, preferably with counseling, then you can be revisited by it years or even decades down the road.

R can be done but it is not easy. Even the most dedicated spouse can still trigger and have down days long after D Day. Years after.

Be prepared.


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## dogman

DDay, your reaction is typical. The problem is that it's typical of someone who wants to get past this too quick. You're already talking about getting past the pain and its only been 2 days.

This hasn't begun yet. Your pain has not started yet. 

You have to expose this or she won't feel the shame and repurcussions and therefore she will most likely backslide.

You have to talk to the OM very sternly and confidently. You need to make him understand that he has to stay away.

She has to know that breaking no contact is a deal breaker for any reason.

Std tests for sure, unless the idea of another man getting off inside your wife doesn't bother you.

She has to figure out why this was the answer to whatever was wrong. Instead of communication with you.

It's my opinion that she should be in a spare room until she earns a place with you again.

You have to monitor her constantly. Phone/ computer/ where she is all the time.

If you fall short on these things you appear weak and you will go through this again.

YOU ARE UNDERESTIMATING THE POWER OF THE CHEMICAL ADDICTION SHE NOW HAS TO THIS OM. SEX IS BONDING!!


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## Decorum

Dday,
Chapparal's advice is as solid as it gets.

--------------
Dday,

By the time you were ready to marry your wife you had courted her, tested her, got to know as much about her as you could, past, present, and her future aspirations.

Why did you do this?

Because marriage, family and the blending of financies are the most valuable things in life, (next to your self respect)!

Why did you do this?

So that you could be as sure as possible that you would NEVER be where you are!


The trust she earned during that courtship--is gone?

The character that she showed,that reassured you--meaningless now!

The benifit of the doubt that you gave her when you put her up on that pedestal- forever gone.

You will never look at her the same again- I promise you!

The marrage you had and the woman you married were thrown away in deceit and betrayal.


What is being being recomended here is the process for her to show that she is worthy for you to give her the gift of reconcilation.
Its a new courtship, to begin to rebuild a relationship upon which a new marriage can be established!


Do you disagree? Do you really think for it to work and for you to be happy it would take anything less?


She has treated your marriage and your well being as if thy have no value, all you are asking is for her to show you that she was wrong and that she highly values you!

Not just that she "wants to have her cake and eat it too".



Having said all that, this relationship may be worth saving, and you may be a fool to let it go. (That's for you to decide)

But ask yourself, what does she now bring to the relationship that makes it worth all the hard work to save this? Ask her this?
How will she make it up to you? (and it will be hard work)

There are only a few reasons that I would consider reconciling with a spouse who comitted infidelity the way yours did,

The primary reason would be, because we are so good together that our potential for happiness is very high.

I would not do it, out of fear of being alone, or of dating, or because of past memories or good times, or of what other people would think. I would not do it just for the kids, though I would look very hard to see what the potential is.

This is your call, we (at least I, but I know others too) will support whatever decision you make.

I have seen posters and Op's (thats you Dday) have heated discussions on this board, but with good intentions, you will get a variety of opinions, you are a man and will live with your decisions, that will be respected here. Its your future that matters now.

So think it through!

Take care!


----------



## jim123

Dday said:


> I am reading every comment and taking them seriously. I just don't see how some of the comments will help save this marriage. Maybe you guys are right and it is not savable or worth saving. In my mind and heart, saving the marriage is what want in the long term. She is not holding back any detail of the affair, how often when where how. I needed to know, I'm not sure why but she told me everything. I listened to the conversation with the best friend and it was emotional and very sincere.
> 
> I threatened to expose the affair to everyone because I thought she may be staying to save her reputation and worried about what others think. She didn't care and would try to work it out either way. I still have a fear that it is only because of the kids but time will tell I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It can be saved but understand it is unlikely. We are saying the way you are going about it will not work.

Two days ago as she passed out her thoughts were of him, not you. She more than likely will have a difficult time giving him up. The fact she has you locked up will make it all that easier to resume the affair. You caved in less than 48 hours. She is in control and now knows it.

She will try and make it work but he or she will check and see how the other one is doing. That is when it starts up again.

You made this way too easy. Calling her a few names is not really going to do much.


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## Dday

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Alright OP. You say you got all the details. Did she have unprotected sex with him? Did he ejaculate inside her? If so, even if it was unprotected only and he deposited his stuff somewhere else, you NEED an STD test. The guy is a freakin' heroine addict, right?
> 
> If you really want to lay out consequences for this affair, your wife needs to go NC with the OM AND her best friend. Since your wife's friend lives at her parent's house, there is no guarantee that your wife will be able to visit the best friend without the risk of running into the loser drug using OM. So your wife has to lose both in order to save this marriage for starters. If she complains, I'd tell her outright that her friend cannot guarantee that she will be able to keep the brother away from her.
> 
> Also, I echo the concerns of others here. She was pretty cold and calculating with this affair. Even if you are getting a lot of the truth, be aware that there may have been others in the past or others going on even now.


To answer your first 2 questions. Yes and yes. It's crushes me to think about it but its been going on for so long the damage is done. She will get tested next gyno appointment which is in a week. 

The heroine addict thing is probably blown out of proportion. Remember I was "friends" with him before this and it was more of a pain killer addiction that led to some snorting of heroine. No needles or anything like that. Just for the last 2 years he goes weekly to the meth clinic to get his fix. I'm taking the advice about the NC for the OM. As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

Deciding to save a marriage after a 9-month affair is a very, very serious decision. It's a decision that shouldn't be made immediately without any real knowledge about how you go about reconciliation. It's a decision that shouldn't be made while you are in shock from the discovery.

The people here have seen this many times over. They want you to save your marriage if it's possible. You need to step back and take some time to understand what you have to do.

Please take some time to really educate yourself. What you do now could very well be the difference between success and failure & your actions so far put your chances in the failure range.

Please step back and seriously consider the advice you are getting. You need to take complete control and you need to give your wife serious consequences.


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## tom67

Dday said:


> To answer your first 2 questions. Yes and yes. It's crushes me to think about it but its been going on for so long the damage is done. She will get tested next gyno appointment which is in a week.
> 
> The heroine addict thing is probably blown out of proportion. Remember I was "friends" with him before this and it was more of a pain killer addiction that led to some snorting of heroine. No needles or anything like that. Just for the last 2 years he goes weekly to the meth clinic to get his fix. I'm taking the advice about the NC for the OM. As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a start, good


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## Dday

A lot of good information from the last couple of posts. I want to make a couple of things clear. There are no promises right now, she knows this is going to be work. There are no promises but this is truly what I want. I may be going about it the wrong way, I will keep you updated, but I just feel kicking her out of the house or me leaving will not help the situation. I'm not staying for the kids but they are definitely a major consideration and the less they know the better right now. 

When we were good a couple years ago I wouldn't trade my life for anyone else's in the world. I'm hoping we can get back to that, although I know how difficult it will be. 

I have asked her about everything about the affair from what they talked about, where they slept, comparing me vs him in bed, orgasms and have gotten truthful answers. Painfully truthful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Dday said:


> To answer your first 2 questions. Yes and yes. It's crushes me to think about it but its been going on for so long the damage is done. She will get tested next gyno appointment which is in a week.
> 
> The heroine addict thing is probably blown out of proportion. Remember I was "friends" with him before this and it was more of a pain killer addiction that led to some snorting of heroine. No needles or anything like that. Just for the last 2 years he goes weekly to the meth clinic to get his fix. I'm taking the advice about the NC for the OM. As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look I'm not sure of the folks you have in your world day to day, but a guy who goes to a methadone clinic for two years is actually a pretty hard core drug addict in mine, and that's the guy your wife has been paying to have a secret burner phone to be on call for his needs , he's also a guy who has been around your kids. Seriously great values he must be teaching them.

You say your wife doesn't smoke. Yet she's been spending tremendous time around a guy who I'm sure does smoke, a lot.

My point is throw out all the facts you used to know about your wife. They are no longer facts.


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## Dday

You guys have to trust me on this issue. It really in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter. I know you are trying to help and with limited information. My wife is not on drugs and is not smoking. I know this for a fact and is not even a question. 

The OM is actuall
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

You will never get back what you had. That will be dead. 

The problem will be her letting him go. The A sex is always good as it is exciting. She did not do this out of love for you or that she is happy in her marriage.

An A always makes things worse.

You need to have control to have any chance and right now you have none.


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## NewM

Dday said:


> As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.


His sister was covering for them,how will not going to their house change anything?What if she meets his sister at your house while you are not there,how will you know OM wasn't there?What if she goes shopping with her,how will you know she isn't covering for them again?

And there should be no more girls night outs,she can meet OM there or find new OM and you won't know a thing as she is good at deceiving you.


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## SadandAngry

So you were there, in the room with them, over the past nine months? Is this how you know the FACTS?

We keep on this because you just don't even know what you don't know. Think about this. Use your head. Try to square what you know about your wife (I mean what you thought you knew) with the new information you have. Did you think she was a liar, a betrayer, thoughtless, utterly self centred? Because she has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that she is all that, and more. The fact is, you don't know what the FACTS are anymore, and you sure as hell can't trust her to give them yet.


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## cledus_snow

> this is truly what I want.


nuff said. you're the one who has to live with the decision.


i seriously hope you're not rugsweeping the whole thing because that's exactly what it sounds like. 

she has a lot of work to do.


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> To answer your first 2 questions. Yes and yes. It's crushes me to think about it but its been going on for so long the damage is done. She will get tested next gyno appointment which is in a week.
> 
> The heroine addict thing is probably blown out of proportion. Remember I was "friends" with him before this and it was more of a pain killer addiction that led to some snorting of heroine. No needles or anything like that. Just for the last 2 years he goes weekly to the meth clinic to get his fix. I'm taking the advice about the NC for the OM. *As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nine months, if that's all it was, is still a long time to develop an emotional attachment.

These affairs tend to start back up after the initial storm passes. Having the voice-activated recorders in place helps to catch this.

The best friend is an open doorway to find out about the other man, and for him to find out about your wife. If the other man knows his sister is meeting your wife at the park, chances are other man will show up at the park.

Who does best friend care more about - her brother, her best friend, or you? If the affair starts back up, will best friend facilitate meetings? Your wife was willing to break her vows and cheat on you, yet you feel best friend will be loyal to you?

The relationship with the best friend is how this whole thing started. You posted earlier that other man knew of your wife's marriage problems and used them, like a predator, to take advantage of the situation. You acknolwedge your wife's major role of being a willing participant in this. 

If the relationship with the best friend continues, what has changed (other than that now they can't meet at other man's house)?

You say your wife is willing to do whatever you ask in order to save your marriage.

Is your wife willing to handwrite a no contact letter, stating that she will file harassment charges if there is any attempt at contact?

Is your wife willing to give up the friendship with the best friend?


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## Decorum

Now that it has come up, you should know that your wife is likely addicted to "affair crack".

In addition to the effect sperm has on her system, the brain releases powerful drugs into your wifes system that make her addicted to affair sex. This has been covered over and again here and if Mach shows up he can answer some questions about it.

It is one of the hardest things to watch, even a remorseful wife, begging for some way to shut the impulses down. It affects different woman differently. Most ws stumble once or twice because of it, especially if the om comes around fishing, "I just wanted to see if you were ok" type stuff.

So many ww's say if I only had a switch I would throw it, and be free of this.

The ones who get over it the fastest happen when there is full exposure and their lover throws them under the bus to their wife, the "Fog" clears fast then.

She has crossed many personal boundaries to do what she did and like an addict who ruins their life, at the time it seems worth it.

By the time you get through this you will be like the other BS's on here, you will know the best and the worst way to handle things.

One step at a time.
Take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobSimmons

Dday said:


> To answer your first 2 questions. Yes and yes. It's crushes me to think about it but its been going on for so long the damage is done. She will get tested next gyno appointment which is in a week.
> 
> The heroine addict thing is probably blown out of proportion. Remember I was "friends" with him before this and it was more of a pain killer addiction that led to some snorting of heroine. No needles or anything like that. Just for the last *2 years he goes weekly to the meth clinic to get his fix*. I'm taking the advice about the NC for the OM. As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


..err so he's an addict, which just validates what some people have been saying here. You justify things, minimize then rug sweep. He goes weekly for a fix of meth from a clinic. He's an addict, isn't he.


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## Decorum

Its early, this is gonna hurt like heII. When the fear of losing her is truly replaced by the pain of what she did he is really going to need our help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

If he goes to pick up methadone once a week it is because they are giving him a weeks supply. I occasionally come into contact with two painters that are addicts. Just like any other addict, including adulterers , you can take anything they say with a grain of salt. Metadone is just synthetic heroin. He takes it everyday. He is no different than any other heroin addict. If he didn't want to be an addict he would have gone through rehab a long time ago. There is no doubt he tried to get her to take methadone.

ASK HER IF HE DID AND WATCH HER REACTION.


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## Dday

chapparal said:


> If he goes to pick up methadone once a week it is because they are giving him a weeks supply. I occasionally come into contact with two painters that are addicts. Just like any other addict, including adulterers , you can take anything they say with a grain of salt. Metadone is just synthetic heroin. He takes it everyday. He is no different than any other heroin addict. If he didn't want to be an addict he would have gone through rehab a long time ago. There is no doubt he tried to get her to take methadone.
> 
> ASK HER IF HE DID AND WATCH HER REACTION.


I'm not saying he isn't an addict. He is. I was just saying he is not "dirty". He comes from a decent family in a nice house in a good neighborhood. I see how he was helping my wife with her problems and she was trying to help him with his. That is a major concern to me right now because since she sent a final message to end it I could tell she is worried about him. He was getting better but this could push him in another direction, I obviously don't care but she does. I know there will be follow up with her best friend on this situation. The best friend works with my wife about 5 minutes from her house and about 25 minutes from ours which complicates matters more. Any contact with the OM is a deal breaker but it is impossible to stop contact with the best friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I do not see this working then.
At least get gps for the car and phone. Also put vars in her car and home where she is likely to phone. 

Youbare going to need way more than good luck.


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## Chaparral

Btw, ahuge percentage of wives caught cheating get caught again. Br prepared, this is the hardest thing you will ever try.


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## crazyace

Dear Dday,

You said you have all the painful details from her about their PA. And I hope (and pray) it is true ! but, does bother you, that she had better physical connection with him than you, does it bother you now, when she said she had more orgasms with him or did have orgasms with him, that he was better lover or that his size was bigger, or he did things to her that you dint do and vice-versa.
Why I am asking this is , because, may be today you do not feel about it and you are considering reconciliation, but for sure this is going to bother you for a long long time... I think you need to overcome this before you think of reconciling ...


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## Dday

chapparal said:


> Btw, ahuge percentage of wives caught cheating get caught again. Br prepared, this is the hardest thing you will ever try.


I understand and agree with you. I will be very vigilant in finding out what she is doing. If she can deal with that for a long time we may have a chance. But if the questions/tracking become too much of a burden for her this will not work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

crazyace said:


> Dear Dday,
> 
> You said you have all the painful details from her about their PA. And I hope (and pray) it is true ! but, does bother you, that she had better physical connection with him than you, does it bother you now, when she said she had more orgasms with him or did have orgasms with him, that he was better lover or that his size was bigger, or he did things to her that you dint do and vice-versa.
> Why I am asking this is , because, may be today you do not feel about it and you are considering reconciliation, but for sure this is going to bother you for a long long time... I think you need to overcome this before you think of reconciling ...


Yes it bothers me!!! I needed to know all of the details and she told me. I feel I will compare myself to him,try to be better. Probably wont work because she will know what I'm trying to do but what can I do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> From the details I have gotten it was more of a EA at that time (August) I definitely saw some red flags during the vacation and even questioned her.
> 
> The level of deceit is unbelievable, the PA began in September and we were together for Xmas, New Years party, and other functions. He would drink beer with me, shake my hand all that stuff. I know my wife has the same responsibility here but *she is paying for this mistake.* He gets off with nothing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What consequences has your wife had?

Giving up the affair and ceasing contact with her lover? Having you be upset that she had an affair?

From what I see, you are the only one with consequences from your wife's actions. You now have to keep track of your wife 24/7 and worry about monitoring her communications.


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> My mind is made up that she is staying, we are looking into counseling tomorrow. From our conversations *she is willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She should end all contact with the best friend, quit the job if necessary, and find a new one that the best friend and other man don't know about.

You are taking all of the pain of this situation on your back, your wife is taking on absolutely zero pain from this.

This is a recipe for disaster. Your wife will not respect you.

Other man WILL come to the workplace. The only reason your wife agreed to give up the affair so easily was because she KNOWS she will be able to keep in contact with other man, who she cares about more than you.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you need to wake up. You have young children to think about. I don't know why you are being so passive about what your wife did.


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## southernsurf

Dday said:


> To answer your first 2 questions. Yes and yes. It's crushes me to think about it but its been going on for so long the damage is done. She will get tested next gyno appointment which is in a week.
> 
> The heroine addict thing is probably blown out of proportion. Remember I was "friends" with him before this and it was more of a pain killer addiction that led to some snorting of heroine. No needles or anything like that. Just for the last 2 years he goes weekly to the meth clinic to get his fix. I'm taking the advice about the NC for the OM. As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will not know if this relationship is salvageable until about 6 months, maybe a little longer. 

Regarding the OM, keep in mind he is doing other ‘women’ on a regular basis, not just your wife. You do not know who ‘they’ are or who ‘they’ are doing. You wife is now connect to all those people. Don’t take the STD testing lightly. And if he’s on methadone he’s an addict, and you do not know much about his habit, don’t defend his character. 

Get ready for a long ride, read the comments, and realize the faceless people here really are on your side. Soon you will come to realize not every family member is as they choose sides.


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> I understand and agree with you.* I will be very vigilant in finding out what she is doing. *If she can deal with that for a long time we may have a chance. But if the questions/tracking become too much of a burden for her this will not work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have always been an open book to my wife. She has always had access to my email. I don't even password protect my phone, never have. I let her know where I'm going to be. I call this common courtesy. AND I NEVER CHEATED. It's how many happily married people live their lives. When my wife asks me where I've been and what I've been doing, I answer her honestly and don't give it a second thought. I don't think of it as her "being vigilant in finding out" what I am doing. Why in the world would your wife care if you are "vigilant in finding out what she is doing"? 

All your wife has to do is go about her regular business, same as she did BEFORE she cheated. You are the one who has to deal with the questions and tracking. The only reason the "questions/tracking" would become "too much of a burden for her" would be if she wanted to continue the affair. This also contradicts what you posted about her being "willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage."


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## southernsurf

Dday said:


> I'm not saying he isn't an addict. He is. I was just saying he is not "dirty". He comes from a decent family in a nice house in a good neighborhood. I see how he was helping my wife with her problems and she was trying to help him with his. That is a major concern to me right now because since she sent a final message to end it I could tell she is worried about him. He was getting better but this could push him in another direction, I obviously don't care but she does. I know there will be follow up with her best friend on this situation. The best friend works with my wife about 5 minutes from her house and about 25 minutes from ours which complicates matters more. Any contact with the OM is a deal breaker but it is impossible to stop contact with the best friend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow read your comment again. Your wife was trying to help him by taking her pants off, many times. This comment is classic rug sweeping. Start thinking about you, or you will not get through this sane, you will be in a straightjacket!!


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## crazyace

Dear Dday, Here is exactly where the complication starts ... we guys have so much focus on SEX and we cannot overcome it ... I think you should share this with her .. you concerns, and see what she says ...
It is on her to bring back your confidence. I do not know if she feels pleasure when you are together, or is she still thinking the ways she had with the other man ... you will have to be more emotionally giving to her like a female friend to overcome this and make her feel better than the OM... 
BTW , doesnt it seem to you that your wife is staying with you only because her OM is a waste, if he was a well to do man like you, she would not have been with you today ... you seem like an option not for love ... (sorry about this, I may be completely wrong .. ). 
Please please think 100 times before you reconcile. She may do everything right not meet the OM , cut all contact, etc etc ... but you insecurity on her admission of better sex and pleasure with him will not go ! ... for life you would keep wondering if she is satisfied with you ... for life you would keep drooling on he pleasures with OM and for life you would keep wondering if you were a PLan B. With the fact, that tomorrow, there could be a second OM or the same OM another time and you do not have a clue .. cuz from what I understand you had no clue until the drunken night you saw a different phone with her. So obviously she is too good at concealing and disrespecting you ... I wonder how do you do this ... how does she look into the mirror ? How did she come in your arms and say 'I love you' and make it seem real after doing the same with the OM ... UURRRRRGGGHHH !!


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## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> My mind is made up that she is staying, *we are looking into counseling tomorrow*. From our conversations she is willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The choice of a counselor will make a BIG difference. Some (maybe most) will try to blame YOU for your wife's affair by saying you weren't meeting her needs. Many also will tell you that you need to stop monitoring and trust completely. While that is a worthy goal, it is not realistic on day one (or even by the end of year one).

Of course, we all have needs that aren't being met, you do too, but you didn't go out and cheat. Your wife lied to you for 9 months, as you posted, the level of deceit was "unbelievable," so it's going to take a long while to rebuild that trust.

Try to find a counselor who has experience with sex addiction. Ask if the counselor has heard of a book called "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, who is considered one of the leading experts in the world on recovering from infidelity (and who doesn't fall into either of the typical "it's your fault" and "trust too soon" traps that many counselors do). If the counselor hasn't heard of her or doesn't have her book, that's probably not a good counselor for you.


----------



## Ovid

Dday said:


> Yes it bothers me!!! I needed to know all of the details and she told me. I feel I will compare myself to him,try to be better. Probably wont work because she will know what I'm trying to do but what can I do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Easier said than done, but don't compare yourself to him. Don't try to measure up to the OM. Be your own man. Your WW is the one that needs to focus on measuring up.

You should focus on yourself, but not in comparison to OM ever. Instead focus on things like taking care of yourself, working out, etc. Build up your self confidence. 

Finding a hobby to distract yourself with won't hurt.


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## Dday

I am not defending the OM's character. 

We have had or what I thought an open book. Emails and phones were always open to each other. I guess that is why the burner phone was played so quickly. 

I think I am tougher on her than I am posting here. All of the comments here are so one sided I guess it is natural for me to push back a little. I am not going about my life like this didn't happen, I don't think I ever will. I don't think and I told her I probably will never trust her again. Never a full 100%. 

Her actions were dispicable and I don't think any affair could be any worse unless it was my brother or something. 

I have talked to her about the sex. She knows what is bothering me. It will be difficult having sex without thinking about the affair for me, not sure what she will be thinking and for how long we will be reminded or triggered during sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS

Dday said:


> I am not defending the OM's character.
> 
> We have had or what I thought an open book. Emails and phones were always open to each other. I guess that is why the burner phone was played so quickly.
> 
> I think I am tougher on her than I am posting here. All of the comments here are so one sided I guess it is natural for me to push back a little. I am not going about my life like this didn't happen, I don't think I ever will. I don't think and I told her I probably will never trust her again. Never a full 100%.
> 
> Her actions were dispicable and I don't think any affair could be any worse unless it was my brother or something.
> 
> I have talked to her about the sex. She knows what is bothering me. It will be difficult having sex without thinking about the affair for me, not sure what she will be thinking and for how long we will be reminded or triggered during sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Aside from the obvious that it happened in the first place, what specifically about the sex she had with him is truly bothering you the most? Did she tell you that he was better than you? Was he bigger? Was it technique? Was it merely the idea that she felt more at ease with him than you? Or did she like she could do things with him that she could never do with you because he wasn't her husband? I'm not asking because I want to know your sordid details. The reason why I ask is that depending on what specifically bothers you the most, you could conceivably process some of it better (if she thought the sex was better because she felt less inhibited), or make improvements (better techniques), and/or there will be some things you are simply not going to be able to help no matter what (if he was larger and your wife liked the size). Not having been directly affected by infidelity, there are some things I can't help you with. But I can empathize a lot, and for me a lot of whether I could ever reconcile would hinge on how intimacy (including sex especially) could be affected. If there are certain things that I could not get over because of my pride, then the R can't proceed (for me). Sorry, maybe that's small minded on my part, but it's my thoughts on it.

But I do want to point out that the mind is the greatest sexual organ we have. With that being the case, I believe that the majority of our sexual skills begin and end with how well we use our brains and how well we reach the brains of our partners. So just because a guy may be bigger, it may not matter when you think about sex as being predominantly a thing of the mind.


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## SadandAngry

Oh man, right now, you are your own worst enemy. You've had what should be the shock of your life. Try to detach a bit. Go back and read your whole thread. Try to take yourself out of the picture and read it as if it was someone else's story. Use your brain. Think critically about what you are being told, and then what your answers are all about. We are not trying to tear your family, your world apart. Your wife has done a splendid job of that. We are giving you strategies that will help you avoid some of the pain, some of the mistakes, some of the tragedy. For instance, if you are serious about R, then your wife needs to get another job, yesterday. She is within strolling distance of OM, she is with his sister. Do you send an alcoholic into a liquor store to practice temperance? No. Come on man, give yourself a fighting chance. Get no more mister nice guy and get reading now! You are way too focused on her. I was too, I was sure it was the right thing to do. I was wrong, but I was absolutely positive I knew exactly what to do. I got lucky circumstances lined up for me to avoid the harshest consequences of my mistakes, and to amplify the positives of the things I did correctly. Your circumstances, if you do not start defending your self, will ensure you are hurt more. Your wife is weak right now, she is, to be blunt, stupid (cheaters are), she is not rational, nor trustworthy. Do not treat her as such, or suffer the consequences.


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## alte Dame

The comments here are one-sided not because people are biased. They are one-sided because they reflect the absolute fact that your situation is just like all the others. Human behavior is simply like that. People act in the same set of ways in similar circumstances.

So, your W is acting exactly the way a cheating W acts - she is lying to cover up; she is not the woman you thought you knew. And you are acting in exactly the way many betrayed H's act - you are jumping to a solution that offers you hope and peace of mind; you believe you have the 'whole truth.'

The thing is, Dday, your W isn't primarily loyal to you. She has, at best right now, split loyalties. This is one of the reasons she can lie to you so easily.

You can reconcile. People do it. But you have to stop flying by the seat of your pants. Your instincts tell you to do things that will probably just give you more pain in the end. This is a question of short-term vs. long-term gain. You must admit that we all have instincts that give us short-term profits, but turn out badly in the long term. This is one of those cases.

You will be in what is termed false reconciliation if you don't take a breather and start to reevaluate using some experienced advice.


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## Shaggy

We aren't trying to dump on you. The thing is the people here have seen this before, wives cheating with losers, claiming they are working on one another's problems etc. we've seen when the wife continues to have connections in her daily routine with the OM and the world tat enabled the cheating.

And we have see the mistakes husbands make when they try to hod their family together at all cost.

And we don't want you to end in failure. That's why we are going after parts of your story which are major red flags.

1. You are rugs weeping or at best minimizing things, or you are assuming the better character of people who through their willingly chosen actions have proven themselves to be of very bad character.

2. You are not challenging your wife to earn ascend chance. Instead you told her to stop cheating. And are hoping she follows through.

You're a good man, you are ins shock, and you want to fix this mess. Ok, we want to help you, so please listen to the good fold here with a lot of painfully earned experience.

- size him up for what he is. He is not a good guy. He is a drug addict who feeds his body a steady dose of artificial drugs to keep himself feeling good. He hasn't gotten himself clean, he has instead chosen the easy, but self destructive path of injecting himself. The drugs are an essential part of his life, and by being very intimately with him, it is now part of your wife's life. His life became a part of your wife's life when she chose to spend her time with him. She wasn't just having sex with him, she was having and emotional and sexual relationship with a drug user and spending major parts of her life with him. She doesn't see him as a broken man to be pitied, She see him as a man she wants to be with and be part of his life. This guys life involves drugs, smoking, and who knows what else. Those things are now part of her daily life.

You need to understand too that right now your wife is also essentially a drug addict, when a person is in an affair their brain gets a strong dopamine high that is released by the affair partner. It comes from being with them, and from thinking about them, and being contacted by them. It's no less a dependency than the person who uses meth to release dopamine into their head. It's less intense than what the meth does, but it's going on and it's very addictive, that's why affairs are so hard to break up unless the WS is highly motivated.

Problem is your current path isn't proving high motivation to your wife. It's good that she's answering your questions, but don't mistake that for her being motivated to actually end her addiction to the affair.

Her working with the guys sister is a total recipe for failure. She and he will be using the sister to keep up to date on each other. Each time she does this it will reinforce the affair and give her a nice dopamine shot which will drive her each tine a little more. 

Now if the OM breaks no contact, which he will since you know from his lifestyle he has ZERO barriers to just going after the thing that makes him feel good, when he breaks NC she will get a huge rush and you are back to the day before you found out.

She needs to completely purge the part of her life that is part of affair.

That means not just the OM, but the bf, and the job that brings them all together.

If you don't take that hard step she will not return to the marriage. She needs to break her addiction to the dopamine the affair releases.

That'd why her affair sex will have been better than sex with you. Like a meth addict, she was riding a nice dopamine high when she was having sex with the OM. It wasn't any great sex skill he had, it was that her brain was already lit up and feeling terrific, the sex just further fed that high.

Why did she have sex with him? For the high basically. She likely had started into an EA with him. That was feeding her brain the dopamine, and at some point she decided to kick the high even higher by getting physical with him. Her brain betrayed the marriage by giving her a really nice extra jolt and trained her to see having sex with the OM as the path to feeling that rush again.

So she hit addicted to that high and kept feeding it.

Your wife is no better than the OM.

And if while in this high state he suggested she try things sexually, or try drugs with him, she would give in and do them because she was already feeling great and she would want to feel even better. 

It was this same drive for her dopamine fix that lead her to buy the burner phone. Not just buy it, but keep it charged, and to hide it, but also pull it out to get more hits. Each text she send and git from him gave her another hit. Dreaming of what they would do as soon as she could ditch you got her another hit.

The night you caught her. She had drank enough that her judgement was affected, she needed a hit from him so she got the phone out even though it was risky, but her drive to have that hit was stronger than her need to be safe.

So please listen to us when we say you really need to seeing differently than you are.


She needs to get a drug test this week.

She needs an STD test this week, and in 6 months again for HIV which is common in drug users like him.

She needs to quit working with his sister.

She needs to provide you with 24/7 accountability of where she is at and who she is with.

You need to see a lawyer and find out your options, and she needs to know you are doing it. She needs to feel the fear that you may leave.

Do not reassure her that you two are going to fix this. That's a very wrong approach. It basically says you WILL tolerate her breaking NC. I enables her to feel safe if she gives into the need for another fix, and it doesn't provide her with any motivation to fight her own addiction.

Instead she needs to see that time as her hitting rock bottom, and she needs a Hail Mary pass to safe the game. She needs to be fighting for you and the marriage like its slipping away. You being supportive, and accommodating, and easily forgiving is going to undermine you by making her feel safe that the marriage will be there waiting for her when she decides to come back.

Right now is not the time you should be making her feel safe.

Right now is when you should be challenging her to eat busy on her finding a way to earn you giving her another chance.

Right now is when you met be demanding big changes from her including leaving the job and the bf.

And new boundaries for her as well. No more freedom like she has had to be with the OM. No more unaccounted for times going out without you.

You needs realize it wasn't just sex. It was very much her deliberate choice to betray your trust and her family to get her dopamine hit, this includes what she was up to with the OM before she chose to have sex with him. She was already deeply into betraying you emotionally for those dopamine hits well before she took off her clothes for him.

See the goal here isn't to simply stop her having sex with him.

It's to get her unhooked and clean from the dopamine addiction she currently still has. That's when she will actually return to the marriage.

She isn't there yet. She's still an addict, and her brain knows that the OM gives it the high it craves. She will be seeking out her next fix like any junkie, like the OM does each day.


And be warned, the OM feels this way too. He also gets a high from her. You know this looser is all about getting his high, NOTHING else matters as much as that feeling to him.

Right now your wife is a major part of getting his high. He WILL be chasing her for more. He'll chase her and chase her until he gets it. He will be contacting her, because he doesn't worry about ny consequences. He will show up at her work, he will be sending her messages and even possibly another phone.

Btw, on the phone. That really is a major hardcore step to gave taken. He was someone she already had easy and open access too. For her to get a burner phone is a major red flag and is something you need to look into more. Ask her when she got it, who bought it him or her? Where did she hide it, where is it charged, how often did she use it. You want to learn all of her tricks now so she can't use them again.

This may not have been her first affair. Burner phones are a major jump from a cheater who screws around to having dedicated infrastructure to support the affair in secret.

Please listen to us here even when you don't like what people say, we really want to help you succeed but your doing things right now that are going to work against you.


----------



## walkonmars

Dday, 
Slow down and take a few deep breaths. It has been less than a week since you found out. You have the benefit of getting the wisdom of some of the most experienced and savvy posters on the forum. 

Yes you have done some very good things. Let's say your car was in an accident and you got the bodywork done but in a little while the car stopped working because in spite of the bodywork you neglected to add oil so the car is now useless. 

Same idea.


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## Shaggy

You need to see that like any addict that is caught and risks loosing their supply, she will engage in the classic addict behaviors if false negotiation, of admitting how awful she was and that she wants to change even while she is seeking ways around you to get the next hit.

Until she's clean herself , like any addict she cannot be given trust. 

Right now the two of you have conflicting goals:

You are trying to stop her affair forever.

She is trying to get her dopamine hit from the OM while minimizing the negative consequences she'll face.

See the core problem here?


----------



## tulsy

Dday said:


> OM is ...addicted to heroine, he has been in recovery for 2+ years on methadone treatments daily.... but the drug testing and std comments aren't really necessary. I know that the OM is clean (std wise)


Seriously dude? Give your head a shake.


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## Kallan Pavithran

Another BS in the BSs thick fog. Here the fog is thicker than usual, He will come out of this and it will take some time as the dday was new.

Dont take any decisions now, Your wife had 9 or more months to think and plan to what to do when she is got caught, you are raw take your time and deal with it. Dont leave any stone unturned about ther A. Expose the A to her family and yours. Dont rug sweep. 

Get tested for STDs, Make her do a drug test. Then a polygraph to prove you what she said is truth and this was her first A.

The way she had this A, right under your nose, in your home and doing things with OM and allowing OM to do things together with you is callous and horrible. You wont be able to get over this as easily as you think you can.

Dont offer the forgiveness so easily and cheaply. Forgiveness got without much work wont have any value she will use it wipe her a$$. We have seen it many times.

Dont think yours is a special case, everyone here thought like this.


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## alte Dame

Shaggy said:


> We aren't trying to dump on you. The thing is the people here have seen this before, wives cheating with losers, claiming they are working on one another's problems etc. we've seen when the wife continues to have connections in her daily routine with the OM and the world tat enabled the cheating.
> 
> And we have see the mistakes husbands make when they try to hod their family together at all cost.
> 
> And we don't want you to end in failure. That's why we are going after parts of your story which are major red flags.
> 
> 1. You are rugs weeping or at best minimizing things, or you are assuming the better character of people who through their willingly chosen actions have proven themselves to be of very bad character.
> 
> 2. You are not challenging your wife to earn ascend chance. Instead you told her to stop cheating. And are hoping she follows through.
> 
> You're a good man, you are ins shock, and you want to fix this mess. Ok, we want to help you, so please listen to the good fold here with a lot of painfully earned experience.
> 
> - size him up for what he is. He is not a good guy. He is a drug addict who feeds his body a steady dose of artificial drugs to keep himself feeling good. He hasn't gotten himself clean, he has instead chosen the easy, but self destructive path of injecting himself. The drugs are an essential part of his life, and by being very intimately with him, it is now part of your wife's life. His life became a part of your wife's life when she chose to spend her time with him. She wasn't just having sex with him, she was having and emotional and sexual relationship with a drug user and spending major parts of her life with him. She doesn't see him as a broken man to be pitied, She see him as a man she wants to be with and be part of his life. This guys life involves drugs, smoking, and who knows what else. Those things are now part of her daily life.
> 
> You need to understand too that right now your wife is also essentially a drug addict, when a person is in an affair their brain gets a strong dopamine high that is released by the affair partner. It comes from being with them, and from thinking about them, and being contacted by them. It's no less a dependency than the person who uses meth to release dopamine into their head. It's less intense than what the meth does, but it's going on and it's very addictive, that's why affairs are so hard to break up unless the WS is highly motivated.
> 
> Problem is your current path isn't proving high motivation to your wife. It's good that she's answering your questions, but don't mistake that for her being motivated to actually end her addiction to the affair.
> 
> Her working with the guys sister is a total recipe for failure. She and he will be using the sister to keep up to date on each other. Each time she does this it will reinforce the affair and give her a nice dopamine shot which will drive her each tine a little more.
> 
> Now if the OM breaks no contact, which he will since you know from his lifestyle he has ZERO barriers to just going after the thing that makes him feel good, when he breaks NC she will get a huge rush and you are back to the day before you found out.
> 
> She needs to completely purge the part of her life that is part of affair.
> 
> That means not just the OM, but the bf, and the job that brings them all together.
> 
> If you don't take that hard step she will not return to the marriage. She needs to break her addiction to the dopamine the affair releases.
> 
> That'd why her affair sex will have been better than sex with you. Like a meth addict, she was riding a nice dopamine high when she was having sex with the OM. It wasn't any great sex skill he had, it was that her brain was already lit up and feeling terrific, the sex just further fed that high.
> 
> Why did she have sex with him? For the high basically. She likely had started into an EA with him. That was feeding her brain the dopamine, and at some point she decided to kick the high even higher by getting physical with him. Her brain betrayed the marriage by giving her a really nice extra jolt and trained her to see having sex with the OM as the path to feeling that rush again.
> 
> So she hit addicted to that high and kept feeding it.
> 
> Your wife is no better than the OM.
> 
> And if while in this high state he suggested she try things sexually, or try drugs with him, she would give in and do them because she was already feeling great and she would want to feel even better.
> 
> It was this same drive for her dopamine fix that lead her to buy the burner phone. Not just buy it, but keep it charged, and to hide it, but also pull it out to get more hits. Each text she send and git from him gave her another hit. Dreaming of what they would do as soon as she could ditch you got her another hit.
> 
> The night you caught her. She had drank enough that her judgement was affected, she needed a hit from him so she got the phone out even though it was risky, but her drive to have that hit was stronger than her need to be safe.
> 
> So please listen to us when we say you really need to seeing differently than you are.
> 
> 
> She needs to get a drug test this week.
> 
> She needs an STD test this week, and in 6 months again for HIV which is common in drug users like him.
> 
> She needs to quit working with his sister.
> 
> She needs to provide you with 24/7 accountability of where she is at and who she is with.
> 
> You need to see a lawyer and find out your options, and she needs to know you are doing it. She needs to feel the fear that you may leave.
> 
> Do not reassure her that you two are going to fix this. That's a very wrong approach. It basically says you WILL tolerate her breaking NC. I enables her to feel safe if she gives into the need for another fix, and it doesn't provide her with any motivation to fight her own addiction.
> 
> Instead she needs to see that time as her hitting rock bottom, and she needs a Hail Mary pass to safe the game. She needs to be fighting for you and the marriage like its slipping away. You being supportive, and accommodating, and easily forgiving is going to undermine you by making her feel safe that the marriage will be there waiting for her when she decides to come back.
> 
> Right now is not the time you should be making her feel safe.
> 
> Right now is when you should be challenging her to eat busy on her finding a way to earn you giving her another chance.
> 
> Right now is when you met be demanding big changes from her including leaving the job and the bf.
> 
> And new boundaries for her as well. No more freedom like she has had to be with the OM. No more unaccounted for times going out without you.
> 
> You needs realize it wasn't just sex. It was very much her deliberate choice to betray your trust and her family to get her dopamine hit, this includes what she was up to with the OM before she chose to have sex with him. She was already deeply into betraying you emotionally for those dopamine hits well before she took off her clothes for him.
> 
> See the goal here isn't to simply stop her having sex with him.
> 
> It's to get her unhooked and clean from the dopamine addiction she currently still has. That's when she will actually return to the marriage.
> 
> She isn't there yet. She's still an addict, and her brain knows that the OM gives it the high it craves. She will be seeking out her next fix like any junkie, like the OM does each day.
> 
> 
> And be warned, the OM feels this way too. He also gets a high from her. You know this looser is all about getting his high, NOTHING else matters as much as that feeling to him.
> 
> Right now your wife is a major part of getting his high. He WILL be chasing her for more. He'll chase her and chase her until he gets it. He will be contacting her, because he doesn't worry about ny consequences. He will show up at her work, he will be sending her messages and even possibly another phone.
> 
> Btw, on the phone. That really is a major hardcore step to gave taken. He was someone she already had easy and open access too. For her to get a burner phone is a major red flag and is something you need to look into more. Ask her when she got it, who bought it him or her? Where did she hide it, where is it charged, how often did she use it. You want to learn all of her tricks now so she can't use them again.
> 
> This may not have been her first affair. Burner phones are a major jump from a cheater who screws around to having dedicated infrastructure to support the affair in secret.
> 
> Please listen to us here even when you don't like what people say, we really want to help you succeed but your doing things right now that are going to work against you.


^^^^ Please read and reread this. It's hard to wrap your mind around what your W is doing and why she is doing it. Reread this. Don't assume that she is thinking like you.


----------



## MattMatt

Dday said:


> To answer your first 2 questions. Yes and yes. It's crushes me to think about it but its been going on for so long the damage is done. She will get tested next gyno appointment which is in a week.
> 
> The heroine addict thing is probably blown out of proportion. Remember I was "friends" with him before this and it was more of a pain killer addiction that led to some snorting of heroine.* No needles or anything like that.* Just for the last 2 years he goes weekly to the meth clinic to get his fix. I'm taking the advice about the NC for the OM. As for the best friend it is clear that she never goes to her house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*That you know of. But never take anything for granted. Never leave anything to chance.*


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## Dday

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Aside from the obvious that it happened in the first place, what specifically about the sex she had with him is truly bothering you the most? Did she tell you that he was better than you? Was he bigger? Was it technique? Was it merely the idea that she felt more at ease with him than you? Or did she like she could do things with him that she could never do with you because he wasn't her husband? I'm not asking because I want to know your sordid details. The reason why I ask is that depending on what specifically bothers you the most, you could conceivably process some of it better (if she thought the sex was better because she felt less inhibited), or make improvements (better techniques), and/or there will be some things you are simply not going to be able to help no matter what (if he was larger and your wife liked the size). Not having been directly affected by infidelity, there are some things I can't help you with. But I can empathize a lot, and for me a lot of whether I could ever reconcile would hinge on how intimacy (including sex especially) could be affected. If there are certain things that I could not get over because of my pride, then the R can't proceed (for me). Sorry, maybe that's small minded on my part, but it's my thoughts on it.
> 
> But I do want to point out that the mind is the greatest sexual organ we have. With that being the case, I believe that the majority of our sexual skills begin and end with how well we use our brains and how well we reach the brains of our partners. So just because a guy may be bigger, it may not matter when you think about sex as being predominantly a thing of the mind.


She just said it was different/exciting. He did have some techniques that I have never tried or made her orgasm with which bothers me and I now see it as a mission to complete that. I was "bigger" so at least I don't have that mental hurdle to get through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

you'd be shocked just how well some addicts can hide what they truly do. Don't assume he hasn't used needles or isn't currently using at all.

STD test is in your best interests for 2 big reasons

1) you need to protect yourself and know all of the facts, burying your head in the sand isn't helpful at all
2) it sends a message to your wife and that her actions have consequences. She risked not only the marriage but hers and your health was put on the line.


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## Almostrecovered

and if you haven't already please click the newbie link in my signature


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## TRy

Dday said:


> But if the questions/tracking become too much of a burden for her this will not work.


 "To much of a burden for her"? This statement shows that you are approaching this from a position of weakness, and shows why you are unwilling to make your wife cut off all non-business related contact with the OM's sister.

Reference why you should not allow any contact with the OM's sister. There is no way that you will ever know if the OM's sister knowingly facilitated the affair, but there is a good chance that she at least had her suspicions and yet continued to facilitate their meetings, thus the sister could again become a facilitator in the future. It may start out with the OM's sister telling your wife how the OM is doing, and how much he misses your wife; this will serve as a trigger that will keep your wife emotional connected to the OM. The OM's sister will also keep the OM updated on your wife and thus also keep him emotionality connected to your wife. As you and your wife try to deal with the fallout of the affair, your marraige will have many ups an downs. The sister will keep the other man informed of the downs, so that he would know the best times to strike. Worse yet, the OM's sister is loyal to her brother and not to you. Because of this, if OM's sister feels that the OM is suicidal or having other such issues and needs to see your wife, she will do what is best for the OM and not for you or your marraige. Also, if she has not already, what if OM's sister is feed lies during the reconciliation about you and your relationship with your wife that makes you into a bad person; in such a case she would, in the belief that the OM is better for your wife, facilitate and encourage them to reconnect.

One more thing. The OM's sister will serve as a regular reminder to your wife of the OM. This will make it impossible for your wife to make room in her heart for you to fill in again. For you to have a real shot at reconciliation, the specter of the OM must be gone from your wife's life, which will never happen if she continues to have the OM's sister as a friend.


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## MattMatt

Dday said:


> She just said it was different/exciting. He did have some techniques that I have never tried or made her orgasm with which bothers me and I now see it as a mission to complete that. I was "bigger" so at least I don't have that mental hurdle to get through.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, that's exactly why I never wanted any details. Just knowing about the infidelity was enough for me to cope with. Details? That would have made it worse for me.


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## walkonmars

A separate issue is the boozing. You said y'all were drinking with another couple on Good Friday - ran out of booze and went to get some more. 

When you returned the girls were totally blitzed. The friend on the couch and your wife in bed. Is that level of alcohol the norm? 

If so, it provides some idea as to why you are so willing to minimize the affair.


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## ArmyofJuan

I know reading these posts must be frustrating; I remember thinking the same thing back when I was in your shoes. The reason for all this is because you are in a BS “fog”, you are still in shock and denial and want to minimize what happen. This is a self-defense mechanism to help you cope. 

Your new reality is this:
The person you married is changed forever. She is no longer or will ever be considered again a faithful wife. She however gets to keep a faithful husband.

Your desperation to keep your M together and being a better husband in a way rewards her for cheating. Regardless of what you say or how you treat her, as long as she stays married then the consequences would be worth it. 

Within 6 months or so you are going to hit the anger stage and pretty much take back everything you’ve posted here. Your desperation will fade and you will be able to really appreciate the magnitude of what she did to you.

She cannot turn off the A like a light switch. Odds are she will try to contact the OM again once the dust settles. A’s are very much like addictions and “relapsing” is more of the rule than the exception.


You are at the very beginning of a long road that will most likely end in a way you don’t expect. Your story is very common and they always end the same ways. Your number one goal is to get yourself back first before trying to save the M. Only then will you know if staying is worth it or not. The ONLY valid knee-jerk reaction to an A (whether you want to R or D) is to file for a D and then let the cards play out.


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## Dday

walkonmars said:


> A separate issue is the boozing. You said y'all were drinking with another couple on Good Friday - ran out of booze and went to get some more.
> 
> When you returned the girls were totally blitzed. The friend on the couch and your wife in bed. Is that level of alcohol the norm?
> 
> If so, it provides some idea as to why you are so willing to minimize the affair.


They were not passed out drunk. More tired. I think we had 3 beers each. It wasn't a planned night just happened after work and the fridge wasn't stocked. Although I do believe alcohol was the major excuse why she had to sleep at her friends house instead of coming home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

The comments you are making all make sense and I understand the reasons behind them. They are just very difficult to implement in my situation. We have 3 kids and I would be lying if I said I wasn't doing this some for them. I just think it is the right thing to do. It may not be and you are saying it is wrong but it is impossible for me to commit to actions I don't feel are right for my kids. 

My wife had her friend come over today with their boys (not the OM sister). In our group it was usually us, the best friend and this other couple who came over today. She was suspicious my wife told me and asked her a few months ago to be careful.... We told her today what was going on and I called the husband to tell him. It was good to tell someone and inform them of her actions. 

I also mailed something to the OM today. I didn't put his name on it so his mom could open it or sister but I hope the mom gets it to see what kind of scum bag she has living in her house. I had smashed the cell phone in a bout 40 pieces and bagged it up and sent it with a short letter. Something like stay away from my wife and family. Not written like that but the forum rules won't let me post the exact message. I know this means very little to him and it won't stop him from trying to contact my wife but that wasn't my main motivation with the letter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

What I've learned, Dday, is that people will follow the standard script even if older, experienced people are standing on the sidelines screaming at them to watch out, that they are sailing onto the rocks. It's human nature. Younger people always ask me for advice, but rarely take it. Why? Because they have to go through the same stages that we all go through. It's just the life cycle.

So, you think you have to do 'what's right.' You'll realize eventually that what you are reading here was the right thing to do. Everyone does. Let it be a voice in the back of your head, though. It could inform whatever decisions you're making now.

(My graduate school mentor was very wise - he bemoaned having been so ambitious as a younger man that he essentially missed his children's early years. I asked him if he would change it if he could turn the clock back. He said, "No, of course not. I did what all 30-yo men do.")


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## Decorum

Dday, Just to follow up on what Will Kane said.
Not all counselors are experienced with infidelity, many still say they are, they want your business.

If they try to blame you in any way or jump to "what was wrong in you marriage" bail!

Thats a toxic counselor, dont let you wife go back either, "oh but I like her she was good", no no no.

There will be a time to deal with your side of the marriage, but not now.

There is No, repeat No excuse for cheating, and her cheating is Not you fault!!!

Dday I know you probably realize this but I just want you to hear it from someone else.

Be sure you are sleeping and eating ok, start exercising if you are not, this is hard on you and you need to take care of yourself.

I understand your commitment to your kids, we have 4 our youngest grads HS this year and 2 oldest grad. From college. I would do whatever it takes to be there for them.
So I respect that.

Ok take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southernsurf

DDay - are you sleeping in the same bed? are you having sex with your W?


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## Decorum

You have begun exposing this that is good.
Dont keep going after om right now, full exposure (to his parents, friends too) and a hand written no contact letter is what is needed now.

Have her tell her parents and your parents what she has done in your presence.

Notify friends and ask them for support as you work through this.

It the men who take action who do the best here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maincourse99

Six years ago I did exactly what you're doing now. Our daughter was 5 and I couldn't imagine breaking up the family, kicking her out and divorcing her. And she was SOOO sorry! So, 6 years of not trusting, wondering where she was while I was at work, or where her and her GF's were when they went out at night. I was not aware of TAM back then.

Guess where I am now? She gave me the ILYBIDLY speech May of last year and she currently resides with the POSOM. We're divorced. 

I think you're on the same path. Enjoy the ride to H*ll. Or... listen to people are telling you to file (see Armyofjuan's post above).


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## Dday

southernsurf said:


> DDay - are you sleeping in the same bed? are you having sex with your W?


We did both last night
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy

Dday said:


> The comments you are making all make sense and I understand the reasons behind them. They are just very difficult to implement in my situation. We have 3 kids and I would be lying if I said I wasn't doing this some for them. I just think it is the right thing to do. It may not be and you are saying it is wrong but it is impossible for me to commit to actions I don't feel are right for my kids.


 The fact is that the odds are not 100% that your marraige can be saved long term. There is a very good chance that your wife will pick up the affair again if you do not handle this correctly. We are not claiming that following our advice will work 100% in saving the marriage. What we are claiming is that following our advice will increase the odds of saving your marraige. Being weak now, is a receipt for failure if your goal is to save the marraige. If saving the marraige is in part for the sake or your children, then for the sake of your children please think about following our advice.

It has only been a few days since you confronted your wife about the affair. She is lost in an affair fog, so do not let her be your guild as to what is the correct path that you will take in reconciliation.


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## The-Deceived

Sorry you are here, brother. Sadly, you can never trust her again. That is a fundamental truth of infidelity. She has proven beyond a reasonable doubt she is an utterly decietful, untrustworthy person.

Your road to recovery will be much longer should you attempt to reconcile, and it's no guarantee you will.

Ask yourself if you are willing to live the rest of your life in fear, lacking trust, dealing with the resentment you feel, the betrayal, the constant wondering if she's doing it again...that likely will never, ever go away.

This is likely the most painful, difficult thing you will ever experience, and regardless of what you decide, it's going to be a f*cking emotional roller coaster - guaranteed. 

For me, I learned infidelity is a deal breaker. I do not want to be married to someone who would do me such a grave wrong. There's NO getting past it.

Good luck to you man.


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## warlock07

Forgiveness given easily is neither valued or respected. Separate for a little while even if you decide to reconcile. Let her reflect on what she did. Why should it be different the next time ?


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## Shaggy

Did this other friend that cane over yesterday know of the affair? You post sounds like she had warned your wife months ago not to get caught, and she was now suspicious that your wife had confessed.

Other than your wife and the OM who knew about the affair?

Are you fully exposing the affair to the people your lives so they can help end it?


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## Decorum

Click on some of these posters names, go to profile, to staticstics, to find threads started by, and read their stories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

Shaggy said:


> Did this other friend that cane over yesterday know of the affair? You post sounds like she had warned your wife months ago not to get caught, and she was now suspicious that your wife had confessed.
> 
> Other than your wife and the OM who knew about the affair?
> 
> Are you fully exposing the affair to the people your lives so they can help end it?


The friend is over today. She did not know of the affair just saw some flirting that made her question my wife. That was months ago and she didn't notice it since. The friend over today has 2 kids and we usually go over best friend and OM's house to let the kids play. Best friend has 1 kid. The parents have a nice size house and it was really easy to let the kids play inside or out. It went without question that we will not be over there any more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

This may seem contradictory but it is a simple idea to keep in mind as you progress.

You need to be prepared to lose your marriage in order to have a decent chance of saving it. 

Otherwise, your fear of losing your marriage may lead you to make serious error of judgment.


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## Lovemytruck

Dday,

This thread is loaded with great advice. Stories of infidelity are like watching the clouds move in, rain, and roll on. The sun will shine again.

It is an ethical obligation to help those in your shoes. It is the ugliest thing that most of us have had to face in our lives.

Most of us immediately opt for R when we find out that our spouses cheated. Later we learn what it is to have been betrayed.

Somewhere in your mind try to remember that your feelings will change. The unfairness will surface. It is a time that you might do foolish things that can harm yourself. Try to use this calm time to develop a good plan for an exit in spite of your wishes to R. AT LEAST be prepared for more painful things to happen.

Sorry you are in this club. You will begin to learn some of life's most valuable lessons here. It will make you a better man, and a better husband. Probably for a woman other than this one.

I say this with a deep empathy for where you are in this mess.


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## donny64

So, you are having sex with your wife, just 3 days past D-day. A wife that was having unprotected sex with a heroin junkie. :scratchhead: 

Do you have no self respect or sense of self preservation? You should not be having sex with her at all right now, if ever...and if and when you do, you should be wearing condoms for a good 6 months after (IF) her HIV test comes back clean.

She may be using something herself. Three beers, and she passed out "tired" with her burner phone in her hand?!!! The one she was able to hide from you for 9 months? Don't think so. 

If you don't change how you're handling this, this is going to end badly for you. It may not happen this week, or even this month. But it will end badly. You could not be handling this entire thing much worse than you are.

Leaving for a few hours and calling her a few names, is about as weak of a response to cheating as she could have gotten...short of you crying and begging her for another chance. There are no consequences for her. She will do this again, because she knows you're not man enough to stand up for yourself. Not only that, think about this....you have sex with her 3 days after you found out she was cheating with a heroin addict. She's soiled, dirty, and possibly diseased. And you slept with her, knowingly, with a strong possibility his semen was still inside of her. Not only that, you're commiting to trying to measure up to the OM in bed by trying things he was able to do for her?!!! THAT is your throught process right now?

Seriously, WTF? Snap out of it.

If you're going to set yourself up for failure with her, so be it. But you should be looking out for your health, and the well being of your kids. Start looking for signs of opiate or other drug usage in her. If you don't know what to look for, google it. Signs can be very faint or nonexistent to the uneducated.

Sorry, but the truth can be harsh. If you don't change what you're doing, you're in for a long, painful haul. And possibly a potentially fatal disease. Do NOT EVER trust a junkie. You, and your wife, have NO IDEA what his health status is. No idea. Stop playing Russian Roulette.


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## southernsurf

Glad someone else chimed in on having sex with her so fast. WOW, I couldn’t even look at her much less sex. You need to send a message, but the message you are sending is please pick me, pick me. Not trying to pile on, just saying……. I said this at the beginning, she is in full control of every aspect and you are in a fog. Get mad. If you bark and she runs, better to know that now rather than later. But don’t worry she isn’t going anywhere, right now she’s trying to figure out what the new rules are..........


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## crazyace

Sorry Dday, but I am still at loss to understand, why suddenly your wife has given up the OM ?? Fro what I read and understood , she had more passion with him than you, she felt more for him than you, She even now is concerned about him than what you are going through ... so why is she with you and not with the OM ... ? Please ask her this ..


----------



## NewM

What about GNOs?Did you tell her no more GNOs and going out without you?


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Shaggy said:


> We aren't trying to dump on you. The thing is the people here have seen this before, wives cheating with losers, claiming they are working on one another's problems etc. we've seen when the wife continues to have connections in her daily routine with the OM and the world tat enabled the cheating.
> 
> And we have see the mistakes husbands make when they try to hod their family together at all cost.
> 
> And we don't want you to end in failure. That's why we are going after parts of your story which are major red flags.
> 
> 1. You are rugs weeping or at best minimizing things, or you are assuming the better character of people who through their willingly chosen actions have proven themselves to be of very bad character.
> 
> 2. You are not challenging your wife to earn ascend chance. Instead you told her to stop cheating. And are hoping she follows through.
> 
> You're a good man, you are ins shock, and you want to fix this mess. Ok, we want to help you, so please listen to the good fold here with a lot of painfully earned experience.
> 
> - size him up for what he is. He is not a good guy. He is a drug addict who feeds his body a steady dose of artificial drugs to keep himself feeling good. He hasn't gotten himself clean, he has instead chosen the easy, but self destructive path of injecting himself. The drugs are an essential part of his life, and by being very intimately with him, it is now part of your wife's life. His life became a part of your wife's life when she chose to spend her time with him. She wasn't just having sex with him, she was having and emotional and sexual relationship with a drug user and spending major parts of her life with him. She doesn't see him as a broken man to be pitied, She see him as a man she wants to be with and be part of his life. This guys life involves drugs, smoking, and who knows what else. Those things are now part of her daily life.
> 
> You need to understand too that right now your wife is also essentially a drug addict, when a person is in an affair their brain gets a strong dopamine high that is released by the affair partner. It comes from being with them, and from thinking about them, and being contacted by them. It's no less a dependency than the person who uses meth to release dopamine into their head. It's less intense than what the meth does, but it's going on and it's very addictive, that's why affairs are so hard to break up unless the WS is highly motivated.
> 
> Problem is your current path isn't proving high motivation to your wife. It's good that she's answering your questions, but don't mistake that for her being motivated to actually end her addiction to the affair.
> 
> Her working with the guys sister is a total recipe for failure. She and he will be using the sister to keep up to date on each other. Each time she does this it will reinforce the affair and give her a nice dopamine shot which will drive her each tine a little more.
> 
> Now if the OM breaks no contact, which he will since you know from his lifestyle he has ZERO barriers to just going after the thing that makes him feel good, when he breaks NC she will get a huge rush and you are back to the day before you found out.
> 
> She needs to completely purge the part of her life that is part of affair.
> 
> That means not just the OM, but the bf, and the job that brings them all together.
> 
> If you don't take that hard step she will not return to the marriage. She needs to break her addiction to the dopamine the affair releases.
> 
> That'd why her affair sex will have been better than sex with you. Like a meth addict, she was riding a nice dopamine high when she was having sex with the OM. It wasn't any great sex skill he had, it was that her brain was already lit up and feeling terrific, the sex just further fed that high.
> 
> Why did she have sex with him? For the high basically. She likely had started into an EA with him. That was feeding her brain the dopamine, and at some point she decided to kick the high even higher by getting physical with him. Her brain betrayed the marriage by giving her a really nice extra jolt and trained her to see having sex with the OM as the path to feeling that rush again.
> 
> So she hit addicted to that high and kept feeding it.
> 
> Your wife is no better than the OM.
> 
> And if while in this high state he suggested she try things sexually, or try drugs with him, she would give in and do them because she was already feeling great and she would want to feel even better.
> 
> It was this same drive for her dopamine fix that lead her to buy the burner phone. Not just buy it, but keep it charged, and to hide it, but also pull it out to get more hits. Each text she send and git from him gave her another hit. Dreaming of what they would do as soon as she could ditch you got her another hit.
> 
> The night you caught her. She had drank enough that her judgement was affected, she needed a hit from him so she got the phone out even though it was risky, but her drive to have that hit was stronger than her need to be safe.
> 
> So please listen to us when we say you really need to seeing differently than you are.
> 
> 
> She needs to get a drug test this week.
> 
> She needs an STD test this week, and in 6 months again for HIV which is common in drug users like him.
> 
> She needs to quit working with his sister.
> 
> She needs to provide you with 24/7 accountability of where she is at and who she is with.
> 
> You need to see a lawyer and find out your options, and she needs to know you are doing it. She needs to feel the fear that you may leave.
> 
> Do not reassure her that you two are going to fix this. That's a very wrong approach. It basically says you WILL tolerate her breaking NC. I enables her to feel safe if she gives into the need for another fix, and it doesn't provide her with any motivation to fight her own addiction.
> 
> Instead she needs to see that time as her hitting rock bottom, and she needs a Hail Mary pass to safe the game. She needs to be fighting for you and the marriage like its slipping away. You being supportive, and accommodating, and easily forgiving is going to undermine you by making her feel safe that the marriage will be there waiting for her when she decides to come back.
> 
> Right now is not the time you should be making her feel safe.
> 
> Right now is when you should be challenging her to eat busy on her finding a way to earn you giving her another chance.
> 
> Right now is when you met be demanding big changes from her including leaving the job and the bf.
> 
> And new boundaries for her as well. No more freedom like she has had to be with the OM. No more unaccounted for times going out without you.
> 
> You needs realize it wasn't just sex. It was very much her deliberate choice to betray your trust and her family to get her dopamine hit, this includes what she was up to with the OM before she chose to have sex with him. She was already deeply into betraying you emotionally for those dopamine hits well before she took off her clothes for him.
> 
> See the goal here isn't to simply stop her having sex with him.
> 
> It's to get her unhooked and clean from the dopamine addiction she currently still has. That's when she will actually return to the marriage.
> 
> She isn't there yet. She's still an addict, and her brain knows that the OM gives it the high it craves. She will be seeking out her next fix like any junkie, like the OM does each day.
> 
> 
> And be warned, the OM feels this way too. He also gets a high from her. You know this looser is all about getting his high, NOTHING else matters as much as that feeling to him.
> 
> Right now your wife is a major part of getting his high. He WILL be chasing her for more. He'll chase her and chase her until he gets it. He will be contacting her, because he doesn't worry about ny consequences. He will show up at her work, he will be sending her messages and even possibly another phone.
> 
> Btw, on the phone. That really is a major hardcore step to gave taken. He was someone she already had easy and open access too. For her to get a burner phone is a major red flag and is something you need to look into more. Ask her when she got it, who bought it him or her? Where did she hide it, where is it charged, how often did she use it. You want to learn all of her tricks now so she can't use them again.
> 
> This may not have been her first affair. Burner phones are a major jump from a cheater who screws around to having dedicated infrastructure to support the affair in secret.
> 
> Please listen to us here even when you don't like what people say, we really want to help you succeed but your doing things right now that are going to work against you.


:iagree:

Damn, Shaggy if this was basketball you would be in the zone.

One of the best posts I've read in awhile.


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## Chaparral

If her bf and the om lives with their mother, and they didn't know, where did they have the affair?


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## Dday

I wish you guys would stop with the junkie/drug/std comments. I hear them and she will get tested but seriously I'm not worried. I know the OM is a scum bag but I know he doesn't have any diseases. It's tough to explain the situation but you guys need to trust me on this. 

The GNO's will not be going on for a long time. We have talked about spending more time together as a family. It is expensive for babysitters and we used to take turns going out. 

I don't know what the fog is but I feel I am All over the place. I tend to process my feelings quickly although in this case they keep circling. I can feel good one minute and very attracted to her then disgusted the next. The movie reel is the worst, but I feel the easiest to get through. The lying and deception is what will take the longest to heal if I can ever. She just took my oldest to gymnastics and although I have been talking to her and she said she hasn't texted OM I have no way to trust her.


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## Dday

chapparal said:


> If her bf and the om lives with their mother, and they didn't know, where did they have the affair?


She would sleep in OM bed. He would sleep on the couch. He was such a gentleman. By the time best friends kid woke up uncle OM would be on the couch.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

Dday said:


> I wish you guys would stop with the junkie/drug/std comments. I hear them and she will get tested but seriously I'm not worried. *I know the OM is a scum bag but I know he doesn't have any diseases.*


[Sigh]

Until three days ago, you also knew that he wasn't sleeping with your wife.


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## Shaggy

The way you know she isn't texting him is either you remove texting from her phone, or you inspect the call log on your cell providers web site.

Some people have had their WS take a pic and send it to them when the WS arrived and when the left a spot,

If you turn on location info for pics on the iPhone it will put time and GPS info into the picture.

Be very much on guard these coming weeks, even if she is intending to stop, he likely will come fishing for contact,

Have you laid down the plan of what she will do when that happens?

- first she should not respond in anyway or even acknowledge him
- no asking him questions or responding
- she needs to stop and inform you immediately,if it was text or email she much forward it to you.
- if he tries to see her in person, she is to withdraw without speaking to him, and to call you immediately,

Also lay the following rule: no passing messages or asking for how he's doing via his sister


----------



## Chaparral

Dday said:


> She would sleep in OM bed. He would sleep on the couch. He was such a gentleman. By the time best friends kid woke up uncle OM would be on the couch.


If you are going to get her tested, we can guit harping.

Its hard to believe they carried on 9 mos and no one ther had a clue. Its also hard to believe that's the only place they were meeting. As a matter of fact, I don't believe it. Sorry.

I have known druggies since the early 1970s, inluding ones that died doing what om is doing. I do not believe you have him pegged. I will bet he has a secret life none of you know about.

And a druggy will do anything to share with his woman.


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## Chaparral

Did you or did you not ask her if he tried to get her to take methadone and carefully warch her reaction.

Good people end up doing drugs just like they get caught up in affairs.


----------



## NewM

Dday said:


> She just took my oldest to gymnastics and although I have been talking to her and she said she hasn't texted OM I have no way to trust her.


Usually it is enough to just install spy software on cheater's phone and check their texts and GPS location,but your wife is more deceptive then usual cheater.You should put voice activated recorders(VARs) in her car and in your house where she is most likely to use another burner phone.

Spy software on her phone and VARs will make this much easier for you.Just make sure she doesn't know about it.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67661-become-spy-catching-them-technology.html


----------



## Dday

chapparal said:


> If you are going to get her tested, we can guit harping.
> 
> Its hard to believe they carried on 9 mos and no one ther had a clue. Its also hard to believe that's the only place they were meeting. As a matter of fact, I don't believe it. Sorry.
> 
> I have known druggies since the early 1970s, inluding ones that died doing what om is doing. I do not believe you have him pegged. I will bet he has a secret life none of you know about.
> 
> And a druggy will do anything to share with his woman.


The best friend thought something was going on. She just didn't confront them. I listened to my wife admit it to her and she was not in on it. 

I also know that it happened at my house when I was away for work. I don't travel often but there were about 6 nights in the last 9 months I was away. She admitted to having him over in the basement after kids went to sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

chapparal said:


> Did you or did you not ask her if he tried to get her to take methadone and carefully warch her reaction.
> 
> Good people end up doing drugs just like they get caught up in affairs.


Yes and I'm sure she did not. He recently reduced his dosage and she thought she was helping him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> The way you know she isn't texting him is either you remove texting from her phone, or you inspect the call log on your cell providers web site.
> 
> Some people have had their WS take a pic and send it to them when the WS arrived and when the left a spot,
> 
> If you turn on location info for pics on the iPhone it will put time and GPS info into the picture.
> 
> Be very much on guard these coming weeks, even if she is intending to stop, he likely will come fishing for contact,
> 
> Have you laid down the plan of what she will do when that happens?
> 
> - first she should not respond in anyway or even acknowledge him
> - no asking him questions or responding
> - she needs to stop and inform you immediately,if it was text or email she much forward it to you.
> - if he tries to see her in person, she is to withdraw without speaking to him, and to call you immediately,
> 
> Also lay the following rule: no passing messages or asking for how he's doing via his sister


Yes we have talked about what she is going to do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## donny64

> I know the OM is a scum bag but I know he doesn't have any diseases. It's tough to explain the situation but you guys need to trust me on this.


Unless you are his doctor or have access to his medical records, you have NO REASONABLE cause to believe he's clean. Even if you did have access....when was his last HIV test? And you realize that even if he had one yesterday, and it came up clean, that it could still take up to 6 months once he's infected before it showed up on a test...right?

And you realize that IV drug usage is an extraordinarily high risk factor for HIV. Up to 10% of IV drug users have it. Almost 50% have never been tested. That's just off of quick research.

And if you think this dude is on methadone because he's been snorting heroin, well, I've got a bridge I want to sell you.

If she tells you they used condoms, and you're buying that, I've got another bridge to go with the other one. 

You say she's being truthful. Ask her if she's done anal with him. If she has, your risk for the disease just shot through the roof if he has it.

Seriously man, do yourself a favor. Get your wife and yourself tested first. Then, be rid of the woman who had such high disregard for you, and would even think of putting you at such high risk for such a devestating disease, by cheating on you with scum like this who is at such high risk for it.


----------



## MattMatt

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Damn, Shaggy if this was basketball you would be in the zone.
> 
> One of the best posts I've read in awhile.


Shaggy is *always* in the zone! A while back, Shaggy made me realise stuff that I needed to know, but had never even considered, not even in 15 years!


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## Chaparral

Please do not think we are bashing you. Cheaters follow a script. The variations are few. When you tell us things, we have heard it all before. Thousands of threads. you can watch the posters here tell people what a cheater is going to do/say before they do it.

The bigest problem is with the betrayed spouses. They also have a script. Actually, two or three. Some husbands jump all over it with both feet, they have a good chance of making it. Some are so afraid they will agree to nothing the forum tries to explain to them and refuse good, well worn, if difficult advice. The always blow it.

You are in the middle, leaning hard on denial. The cheaters that seem to repent really quickly usually have an ulterrir motive. Sad but true.

Even if you have every intention of forgiving, you have to make it look like her life as she knows it, her family, her friends, everything, is hanging by a thin thread. Its not punishment, its reality.

No matter what you are thinking now, trust us, you will be thinking something else as time goes by....... Your wife has stepped off of the pedestal into the sewer..

We hope you make it and save your family, but you are only going to get the oppurtunity to make this work once.

The number one mistake is to underestimate the attraction between two cheaters. He sees your wife as his, and he literally has no morals. He sees, he wants, he takes. Its what addicts are.

And your wife is attracted to that, the bad boy. Make no doubt about it, most of the cheating women here affaired down.

For now you are a warden and you can believe nothing YOU can't prove with your own eyes.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Dday said:


> I'm not saying he isn't an addict. He is. I was just saying he is not "dirty". He comes from a decent family in a nice house in a good neighborhood. I see how he was helping my wife with her problems and she was trying to help him with his. That is a major concern to me right now because since she sent a final message to end it I could tell she is worried about him. He was getting better but this could push him in another direction, I obviously don't care but she does. I know there will be follow up with her best friend on this situation. The best friend works with my wife about 5 minutes from her house and about 25 minutes from ours which complicates matters more. Any contact with the OM is a deal breaker but it is impossible to stop contact with the best friend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I say this with sincerity, worry about yourself and stop being a Knight in Shining Armor. Yes, it is okay to worry about yourself.


----------



## totallyunexpected

I think it's best we focus our energies on helping Dday realize he needs to shock the living H3ll out of his wife in order for her to realize that she is about to lose everything thing she had. She has been having her cake and eating it too - never considering that she would lose either. 

We've made advise on the STD test loud and clear. He says she is going to be tested. He's in denial over the character of the OM. Also, being a druggie doesn't make someone a bad person. However, stealing a wife and destroying a family does (in my opinion). I think it's more effective to help the OP realize that this OM was NOT helping his wife (his own words!) but rather enabling the destruction of her family and ultimately her own life.

You need to start controlling the situation, making MAJOR consequences, and doing everything possible to end this affair. No begging. She either accepts your requirements or you are done. Divorce. Hand the papers over. You can stop the divorce midway through. But she has GOT TO hit rock bottom before she will realize what her future looks like. 

Consequences. Consequences. Be a man. I'm a woman - I love romance. But in this situation, I would want my man to not put up with my disrespecting him. A strong man who enforces boundaries and who will not share his wife is wayyyy more attractive than a clingy man who feels bad for his CHEATING wife.


----------



## Dday

donny64 said:


> Unless you are his doctor or have access to his medical records, you have NO REASONABLE cause to believe he's clean. Even if you did have access....when was his last HIV test? And you realize that even if he had one yesterday, and it came up clean, that it could still take up to 6 months once he's infected before it showed up on a test...right?
> 
> And you realize that IV drug usage is an extraordinarily high risk factor for HIV. Up to 10% of IV drug users have it. Almost 50% have never been tested. That's just off of quick research.
> 
> And if you think this dude is on methadone because he's been snorting heroin, well, I've got a bridge I want to sell you.
> 
> If she tells you they used condoms, and you're buying that, I've got another bridge to go with the other one.
> 
> You say she's being truthful. Ask her if she's done anal with him. If she has, your risk for the disease just shot through the roof if he has it.
> 
> Seriously man, do yourself a favor. Get your wife and yourself tested first. Then, be rid of the woman who had such high disregard for you, and would even think of putting you at such high risk for such a devestating disease, by cheating on you with scum like this who is at such high risk for it.


I do not need to be lectured on drug use. I have seen plenty of it and how it hurts people. I myself haven't done more than smoke weed and the last time was over 12 years ago. However I have many friends who have got addicted to pain killers. Some graduated to heroine be aide the pain pills got to e pensive and the heroine gave the same opiate high at a much cheaper price. It's a terrible addiction and is becoming an epidemic in my area with young adults. Not all drug users are sharing needles and having sex for drugs. Yes there are a lot of them that do but I'm sure that is not the case here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Dday; I'll not harp on the drugs and STD's, enough said about it already, you decide what path to follow.

Instead I'll encourage you to be aware of one thing in general that I have taken some very hard lessons to learn. The thing is: Don't trust anything that you cannot see with your own eyes - and even when you see it, think about alternative scenarios beyond your own beliefs and understanding of reality.

Think of a magician who makes things disappear right in front of you. The object doesn't disappear, it was not there in the first place or it is still there, but you can't see it.

Point being - don't trust your own thoughts or what you thought you knew. Not everything is what it seems to be.

Take care of yourself.


----------



## warlock07

What is your dealbreaker ? Decide them first.

What will you do if :

if she is contacts him again ? 
if they meet one last time ?
she resumes the affair ?
Keeps in contact with OM through other secret means ?

What if you find out that they are talking again few months down the line ?

Look, it wasn't a drunken one night stand. It is a 9 month long affair with a mutual friend.. She did not end it. She got caught. Imagine what she must feel for you if she could do it without any guilt all this time ? Your wife is not you. She has a different set of moral and ethics. She does not feel the same way anymore. Her feeling towards you have changed and you cannot trust her for sometime.

Have you discussed a polygraph with her ?


And if you can, find out when she bought the burner phone. You have no idea about this woman.


----------



## warlock07

And read this thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31959-false-recovery.html

Guy started reconciling immediately after finding out about her affair.


----------



## Dday

cpacan said:


> Point being - don't trust your own thoughts or what you thought you knew. Not everything is what it seems to be.


That is a quote that I'm kicking myself over and over with. I had suspicions of what was happening since it was just an EA back in August. Had fights because she said before she would sleep in his bed and he would sleep on couch when she stayed at best friends house. She would tell me just enough so I thought she wasn't lying, I mean why would she come right out and say she slept in his bed if anything was going on??? God I was dumb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

warlock07 said:


> What is your dealbreaker ? Decide them first.
> 
> What will you do if :
> 
> if she is contacts him again ?
> if they meet one last time ?
> she resumes the affair ?
> Keeps in contact with OM through other secret means ?
> 
> What if you find out that they are talking again few months down the line ?
> 
> Look, it wasn't a drunken one night stand. It is a 9 month long affair with a mutual friend.. She did not end it. She got caught. Imagine what she must feel for you if she could do it without any guilt all this time ? Your wife is not you. She has a different set of moral and ethics. She does not feel the same way anymore. Her feeling towards you have changed and you cannot trust her for sometime.
> 
> Have you discussed a polygraph with her ?
> 
> 
> And if you can, find out when she bought the burner phone. You have no idea about this woman.


Any contact without immediate notification to me is a deal breaker. 

The burner phone was purchased in September/October. I pay the bills and have questioned her before when some numbers would show up regularly on her regular phone bill. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jnj express

Do you have any idea of what the concept of getting rid of cancer is----you cut the whole f'ing cancer OUT

Your wife, CANNOT, let me repeat CANNOT have anything to do with ANYONE in her lovers family EVER AGAIN, for ANY REASON---If your wife works with her lovers sister----JOB ENDS---she quits that job right NOW.

You keep telling everyone you know everything, you are relying on what your wife has told you---but your so called wife has been coming home for probably the last year, looking you in the eyes, and saying everything was fine---DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND, you wife is a LIAR, MANIPULATOR, FRAUD, DECEIVER CHEAT, and do you not also understand that your wife has REPLACED YOU

No matter how downhill your so called good Mge went----there was no reason TO CHEAT----WHY DIDN'T SHE COME TO YOU AND SAY---we need to do something---WERE YOU UNAPPROACHABLE, were you a H. that would not attempt to work on problems in the mge----if you were not the above---WHY THE F DID YOUR WIFE RUN TO ANOTHER MAN

Who gives a F, if he was bigger or smaller, or she had orgasims or not---WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT---SHE F'ing REPLACED YOU, she doesn't have to have sex to replace you---she WENT to another man---THAT IS ALL YOU NEED, who cares what they did---SHE F'ing WENT TO HIM---she didn't want you, and didn't want to fight for her mge., or kids---she wanted to be with another man, and in fact did so----YOU DO NOT NEED ANY MORE PARTICULARS THAN THAT.

One day after Dday---you have decided to just take her back-------well let me ask you---is there one iota of ACCOUNTABILITY---or is she right back in her same old lifestyle---cuz according to you---she still sleeps in the same bed, and bedroom with you, the 2 of you go and visit friends together----nothing has changed, cept---you are Mad at her---big deal---I promise you she will get over that, she probably already has---CUZ SHE KNOWS SHE HAS NO ACCOUNTABILITY

Have you told her she will sign a POST--NUP-----have you banished her from the marital bedroom, have you taken away her CC's, and taken control of the finances----have you taken her off ALL electronics----have you made it clear, she can never see ANYONE in that family again, and that includes her girlfriend. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

Do you not understand, this is a woman, who brought a strange man---I don't give F, if he was the brother of her friend---he was a strange man invading your home---she brought this strange man into your home and had SEX with him IN YOUR HOME, with your kids present------You ain't living with a woman, you are living with a very EVIL PERSON----you may not like it, BUT IT IS THE TRUTH

Don't ever try to tell us she is a good person---she drinks to the point she passes out, she has sex with other men, she lies and deceives her H----if you were reading this about another woman---what would you say about that woman---well guess what Dday---THAT IS YOUR WIFE---THAT IS THE ROLE MODEL FOR YOUR KIDS---some role model!!!!!!!

You better wake up----everyone here is trying to help you, and all you say is---I know, and I am handling it, and if she does anything it will be over---Right now your house is so dysfunctional, it may never get right again---you drink to excess, that for starters----but that's ok FOR YOUR KIDS---RIGHT------YOU EVEN GO OUT FOR MORE AFTER YOU WERE OUT of booze, probably driving while drunk, AND OH YEAH STOPPED IN A BAR FOR A COUPLE OF OTHER SHOTS----You ain't any wonder yourself----your only claim is that at least you didn't cheat

You F'ing ignored the warning signs of your wife's cheating---CUZ YOU DIDN'T WANNA BE FORCED TO HAVE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, you wanted it all to go away---and right now you are doing very little about it, I know I hear your platitudes as to what you are doing----BELIEVE ME THEY ARE LITTLE OR NEXT TO NOTHING----You should have been so Pi**ed off at her, that she should have been sent packing, to live elsewhere while YOU DECIDE THE FUTURE OF THIS MGE----none of that has happened, and I am guessing it never will.

One last 2x4---leave the POS lover alone---HE IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM---It is YOUR WIFE, who took vows with you, and spit on them, it is with her, where your beef lies with---she is the one who supposedly said for better or worse---SHE SURE FORGOT ABOUT THOSE VOWS


----------



## warlock07

Dday said:


> That is a quote that I'm kicking myself over and over with. I had suspicions of what was happening since it was just an EA back in August. Had fights because she said before she would sleep in his bed and he would sleep on couch when she stayed at best friends house. She would tell me just enough so I thought she wasn't lying, I mean why would she come right out and say she slept in his bed if anything was going on??? God I was dumb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, you trusted your life partner. How dumb is that ?

So it just wasn't something that happened without you knowing about it. It was something you regularly fought over. She made you feel guilty for suspecting her and used the implicit trust between a wife and husband to betray you. She actively lied to you during the whole thing. 

Why do you think she is telling you the truth now ? How is this different this time ? Do you think she is reconciling for the same reason as you are - the kids ? If she plans to cheat on you again, won't she be more careful about it ? An affair phone speaks of intent. She completely knew what she was doing..

One more thing, have you exposed her to mutual friends and her family ? Are you talking to your family/friends about this ?


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## Chaparral

Dday said:


> That is a quote that I'm kicking myself over and over with. I had suspicions of what was happening since it was just an EA back in August. Had fights because she said before she would sleep in his bed and he would sleep on couch when she stayed at best friends house. She would tell me just enough so I thought she wasn't lying, I mean why would she come right out and say she slept in his bed if anything was going on??? God I was dumb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Though this is very painful, this is what you need to accept. You are now dealing with what amounts to be, two professional, well practiced liars that have every motivation to keep decieving you.

Usually, the om is just in it for sex. I doubt that this us the case here. He believes your wife is his soulmate. Also, women in affairs usually have sex in order to get love and affection. At this early stage, both of them are either freaking out or totally ready to decieve you.


----------



## jnj express

Unfortunately---Dday is dealing with a very savvy cheater---burner phone, manipulates, deceives, lies, with no problem---even when Dday---thot he had her---she dug in and fought him, for the right to be with her lover

Its too bad doc cool closed down his site---this is one poster that could have used the education coming out of the cheaters forum over there---women like this---never missed a beat---they got caught---and just continued on---they just covered their tracks much better

I really do not understand how dday---can even look at this woman without puking


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## Shaggy

Does your WW drive to work or have her own car? I suggest you buy and install a VAR in it to hear what she's saying when in its safety.


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## NewM

Shaggy said:


> Does your WW drive to work or have her own car? I suggest you buy and install a VAR in it to hear what she's saying when in its safety.


This and another one at home in case she decides to use another burner phone while he is working.


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## Decorum

Dday,
I hope you are holding up ok.

I think you are being very well served here.

You are getting different perspectives and heaingr hundreds of issues presented by people who have been through this and helped many many others.

Keep in mind, if I write a 10 inch post here it can take me an hour to compose it and format it for easy reading, many people are dedicating their time to help. People who have felt the very pain you are feeling.

You are interacting well but I dont want you to be put off by some of the 2x4's that come swingng your way or some of the passion in the posts.

We are doing our best to understamd your situation and to anticipate any issues, but you are at ground zero, so it is your life.

Some of the concerns that are raised here almost never have an exception, yours may be one of the rare one.

Often our first priority is the BS to make sure you are protected and strengthened, and making good choices.

There are plenty of active posters that are betrayed spouses who can come here and say "dont do what I did, I wish I had listened more". 

If you end up there it was probably inevitable anyway. You will just have taken the longer more painful route. Sometimes we do see a situation that seems like it could have been saved if handeled differently .

Its still early, especially if you are going to ride the rollercoaster the whole way, so one step/one day at a time, brother!

Take care!


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Dday, If what has happened to you(so far) had happened to me and I found out that my wife indeed did not tell me the WHOLE truth after she said she had and I found out there was more - I would not be able to stay married to her.

Are you worried that if you find out that there is more to her affair that you think/know that you'll need to divorce her?

I couldn't live like this. I'm sorry, but the unknowns would slowly eat away at me and I believe in the end it would destroy any chance I had at R.

If it where I, I would tell your wife that a friend loned me the money to have her take a polygraph. I would call a reputable poly place first, get all the info and schedule a tentative meeting for two weeks from now(then cancel in a week). I would tell your wife that if she has told is the truth and the poly confirms this, that I would be able to truly forgive and reconcile.

I would pay more attention to what she does vs. what she says when I told her about the poly test, as there could be many tell tale signs of whether she told the COMPLETE truth. Check the PC history afterwards to see if she's looking up way's to fool a poly test. I'd have a VAR going and leave the house for an hour right after I told her she needs to take a poly. If she has not told the truth, she most very likely could call someone to talk about it when she's alone.

Yes, I know, sneaky, but I'm not the one who cheated.

You might be able to move on not knowing the truth and that's fine, if it works for you. But I've been here before. Most of the people that have posted on your thread have been here before. We know of what usually happens in these situations later on down the line. We know that if you forgive, but you're not sure exactly what it is that you are forgiving her for, then you're taking a big risk. You'll be betting against the odds and a big pay off is less than likely.


----------



## donny64

Dday said:


> I do not need to be lectured on drug use. I have seen plenty of it and how it hurts people. I myself haven't done more than smoke weed and the last time was over 12 years ago. However I have many friends who have got addicted to pain killers. Some graduated to heroine be aide the pain pills got to e pensive and the heroine gave the same opiate high at a much cheaper price. It's a terrible addiction and is becoming an epidemic in my area with young adults. Not all drug users are sharing needles and having sex for drugs. Yes there are a lot of them that do but I'm sure that is not the case here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You weren't being lectured on drug use. You were being informed about the dangers of HIV and having unprotected sex with a spouse who had unprotected sex with such a high risk person.

It's your life...literally. Do what you wish. Me, I'd not take the chance over a woman so vile as to put me at such great risk for serious disease.


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## Dday

I really do appreciate the time you guys are taking to write the long thought out posts. 

I am confident I have the full truth about the affair, from when it started and when it got physical. What she told me could not be any worse. I have written down dates from my text message history with times she was out or I was out of town and that was after she told me everything. I spent hours on this trying to see if she was lying about anything. 

I will tell you, and by no means am I taking responsibility in what happened, that reading 10 months worth of text messages really gave me a perspective of how I was talking to her. Everything was routine, one word answers, when you getting home, get the kids, no, and so on. 

I do not see myself with setting up the spy gear. I know I'll get flamed for this but to me I have to learn to trust again. This can't help and is not feasible for the long term. Not to say I won't be following up with phone bills, friends and she will not have any more GNO sleep overs or anything like that. If I need to do the spy stuff I mine as well just give up now. 

We have contacted a therapist and will be setting up time soon. 

I have known my wife since we were 14, started dating at 16 and married at 25. I believe we are "soul mates" or whatever you want to call it. She wants this as badly as I do and is willing to do anything to keep us together.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

Dday said:


> Had fights because she said before she would sleep in his bed and he would sleep on couch when she stayed at best friends house.



Wow! 

So back in August you knew that she was sleeping in the bed of a drug addict. The same bed where he has sex with who knows how many other people; the same bed where he sheds his dead skin and drools and has nocturnal emissions; the same bed where he farts and rubs his sh!t-stained drawers against the sheets.

 Wow!!

I'm a guy and I would have problems sleeping in this person's bed.

She has disrespected you and defiled your marriage.

What are you going to do about it?


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## Almostrecovered

Dday said:


> I do not see myself with setting up the spy gear. I know I'll get flamed for this but to me I have to learn to trust again.


let me explain why I think you are wrong here

trust is earned, and the best way for her to regain that trust is for her to be 100% transparent and for you to check up on her and even through spy methods

why?


because the more you see and hear that what she says is matching her actions, the more your trust in her will come back. Believe me when I say that you will almost always go through a paranoia stage after infidelity. The best way to lessen that impact of that is to spy and have that logic center of your brain see that what she does is what she says she does. (and if she isn't being truthful then you have protected yourself from future infidelity and indiscretion)
You will eventually get "bored" with spying and when that happens, most of the trust has been earned back.

so to sum up, spying:

1) helps you regain trust
2) protects you


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## Shaggy

Ok, she wants R now. Remember just days ago she wanted to have sex with him.

My point is do not be so quick to give trust back. Make her earn it. Btw, if she has to earn it, she will value it much more than if its just given.

And please realize you are dealing with a wife who is addicted to the feelings (dopamine) the affair gave her. The last few days she's been running on adrenaline and shock, that will soon settle once she feels safe again, That's when the want for the dopamine will return.

Be prepared, nd watch for it.

And very much listen to your gut. If something seems off suddenly, don't ignore it, it likely means she has broken NC.


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## Dday

jnj express said:


> Do you have any idea of what the concept of getting rid of cancer is----you cut the whole f'ing cancer OUT
> 
> Your wife, CANNOT, let me repeat CANNOT have anything to do with ANYONE in her lovers family EVER AGAIN, for ANY REASON---If your wife works with her lovers sister----JOB ENDS---she quits that job right NOW.


I have no problem with the best friend. I do see the danger in it but she didn't make the decisions in this matter. If she can't avoid going back to him.... It is not meant to be and hopefully I will find out sooner instead of in 10 years and it would happen again. 



jnj express said:


> You keep telling everyone you know everything, you are relying on what your wife has told you---but your so called wife has been coming home for probably the last year, looking you in the eyes, and saying everything was fine---DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND, you wife is a LIAR, MANIPULATOR, FRAUD, DECEIVER CHEAT, and do you not also understand that your wife has REPLACED YOU


I understand that and it hurts. I am confident I know everything about the A



jnj express said:


> No matter how downhill your so called good Mge went----there was no reason TO CHEAT----WHY DIDN'T SHE COME TO YOU AND SAY---we need to do something---WERE YOU UNAPPROACHABLE, were you a H. that would not attempt to work on problems in the mge----if you were not the above---WHY THE F DID YOUR WIFE RUN TO ANOTHER MAN


That's a good question, she did mention getting help but I shrugged it off. Things felt ok for to me. She also didn't ask for help until after the affair had begun looking in hindsight so not sure if it would of been any different. 



jnj express said:


> Who gives a F, if he was bigger or smaller, or she had orgasims or not---WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT---SHE F'ing REPLACED YOU, she doesn't have to have sex to replace you---she WENT to another man---THAT IS ALL YOU NEED, who cares what they did---SHE F'ing WENT TO HIM---she didn't want you, and didn't want to fight for her mge., or kids---she wanted to be with another man, and in fact did so----YOU DO NOT NEED ANY MORE PARTICULARS THAN THAT.


I needed to know. Not sure why but I did



jnj express said:


> One day after Dday---you have decided to just take her back-------well let me ask you---is there one iota of ACCOUNTABILITY---or is she right back in her same old lifestyle---cuz according to you---she still sleeps in the same bed, and bedroom with you, the 2 of you go and visit friends together----nothing has changed, cept---you are Mad at her---big deal---I promise you she will get over that, she probably already has---CUZ SHE KNOWS SHE HAS NO ACCOUNTABILITY


I can assure you this hasn't been easy on her. I am also thinking what is best right now for my 3 kids



jnj express said:


> Have you told her she will sign a POST--NUP-----have you banished her from the marital bedroom, have you taken away her CC's, and taken control of the finances----have you taken her off ALL electronics----have you made it clear, she can never see ANYONE in that family again, and that includes her girlfriend. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE


No to all



jnj express said:


> Do you not understand, this is a woman, who brought a strange man---I don't give F, if he was the brother of her friend---he was a strange man invading your home---she brought this strange man into your home and had SEX with him IN YOUR HOME, with your kids present------You ain't living with a woman, you are living with a very EVIL PERSON----you may not like it, BUT IT IS THE TRUTH


Yes I understand and again it FING HURTS. She brought him around for our New Years party, Halloween, birthday parties. 



jnj express said:


> Don't ever try to tell us she is a good person---she drinks to the point she passes out, she has sex with other men, she lies and deceives her H----if you were reading this about another woman---what would you say about that woman---well guess what Dday---THAT IS YOUR WIFE---THAT IS THE ROLE MODEL FOR YOUR KIDS---some role model!!!!!!!


It's tough to justify. But I know in my heart she is a good person and a great mother



jnj express said:


> You better wake up----everyone here is trying to help you, and all you say is---I know, and I am handling it, and if she does anything it will be over---Right now your house is so dysfunctional, it may never get right again---you drink to excess, that for starters----but that's ok FOR YOUR KIDS---RIGHT------YOU EVEN GO OUT FOR MORE AFTER YOU WERE OUT of booze, probably driving while drunk, AND OH YEAH STOPPED IN A BAR FOR A COUPLE OF OTHER SHOTS----You ain't any wonder yourself----your only claim is that at least you didn't cheat


I will not drive drunk, I know what I can handle. I think you are making some radical assumptions here


jnj express said:


> You F'ing ignored the warning signs of your wife's cheating---CUZ YOU DIDN'T WANNA BE FORCED TO HAVE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, you wanted it all to go away---and right now you are doing very little about it, I know I hear your platitudes as to what you are doing----BELIEVE ME THEY ARE LITTLE OR NEXT TO NOTHING----You should have been so Pi**ed off at her, that she should have been sent packing, to live elsewhere while YOU DECIDE THE FUTURE OF THIS MGE----none of that has happened, and I am guessing it never will.


I was looking, just in all the wrong places. I had her email, cell phone, Facebook accounts. I never thought she would have an extra phone and bring the OM around me and the kids so often. 



jnj express said:


> One last 2x4---leave the POS lover alone---HE IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM---It is YOUR WIFE, who took vows with you, and spit on them, it is with her, where your beef lies with---she is the one who supposedly said for better or worse---SHE SURE FORGOT ABOUT THOSE VOWS


If he was a random guy I never met I would agree with you. The fact he comes into my house and shakes my hand I just can't look past that. My wife will have to deal with me for her actions while he gets nothing. I'm not planning on seeing him but if I do, it will not end well for either of us.


----------



## Decorum

I am so sorry to hear that she brought him to your home to have sex with him, that just hits me in the gut.

Do you really believe that they did not use the marriage bed?

Btw its good that you realize that you were in a rut and not finding a way to make her feel really wanted.

Sarcasm on/
OMG
No wonder she cheated on you, betrayed and lied to you.
You were kind of asking for it, thats what any mother of 3 would do.
She is just a good woman whom you drove into the arms of another.
Sarcasm off/


Its good to take responsibility for your part in not making the relationship as good as you could.
But you are responsible for your happiness and she is responsible for hers.

You carry NO responsibility for her cheating.

Think about it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BjornFree

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Wow!
> 
> So back in August you knew that she was sleeping in the bed of a drug addict. The same bed where he has sex with who knows how many other people; the same bed where he sheds his dead skin and drools and has nocturnal emissions; the same bed where he farts and rubs his sh!t-stained drawers against the sheets.
> 
> Wow!!


That triggered me and I'm not even a betrayed spouse.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Dday said:


> I have known my wife since we were 14, started dating at 16 and married at 25. I believe we are "soul mates" or whatever you want to call it. She wants this as badly as I do and is willing to do anything to keep us together.


I have known my ex since we were 14 also. We dated in high school and got back together at our 10-year reunion.

We got married at 30 and was married for almost 19 years.

Yes, I thought we were soul mates too.

However, I found out that, while she was my soulmate - I wasn't hers.

This realization has led me to put aside childish notions of 'soulmates' and realize that there are other people in this great big world that can satisfy my soul.


----------



## Decorum

Omg she was brining him around. I hate it when they do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum

I get it. 
Neither of you wants to lose the marriage, but can it be better than it was? Will you both be satisfied with it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Dday said:


> I really do appreciate the time you guys are taking to write the long thought out posts.
> 
> I am confident I have the full truth about the affair, from when it started and when it got physical. What she told me could not be any worse. I have written down dates from my text message history with times she was out or I was out of town and that was after she told me everything. I spent hours on this trying to see if she was lying about anything.
> 
> I will tell you, and by no means am I taking responsibility in what happened, that reading 10 months worth of text messages really gave me a perspective of how I was talking to her. Everything was routine, one word answers, when you getting home, get the kids, no, and so on.
> 
> I do not see myself with setting up the spy gear. I know I'll get flamed for this but to me I have to learn to trust again. This can't help and is not feasible for the long term. Not to say I won't be following up with phone bills, friends and she will not have any more GNO sleep overs or anything like that. If I need to do the spy stuff I mine as well just give up now.
> 
> We have contacted a therapist and will be setting up time soon.
> 
> I have known my wife since we were 14, started dating at 16 and married at 25. I believe we are "soul mates" or whatever you want to call it. She wants this as badly as I do and is willing to do anything to keep us together.


Well, yes, but... your wife is so sophisticated a cheater that, and I hesitate to mention this, but... is this her first time as a star performer in the Infidelity Rodeo?


----------



## Decorum

MattMatt said:


> Well, yes, but... your wife is so sophisticated a cheater that, and I hesitate to mention this, but... is this her first time as a star performer in the Infidelity Rodeo? :
> 
> 
> " She wants this as badly as I do and is willing to do anything to keep us together".


She is good, I will give her that.

How would she feel if you told her you feel entitled to a 9 month free pass, but since you cant be sure what bulls she has been on before, the clock dosn't start ticking until she catches you! (Not that you should, it only makes things worse not better)


----------



## Dday

MattMatt said:


> Well, yes, but... your wife is so sophisticated a cheater that, and I hesitate to mention this, but... is this her first time as a star performer in the Infidelity Rodeo?


It was questioned pretty extensively. Not a 100% sure but I think this was it.


----------



## Dday

Decorum said:


> I get it.
> Neither of you wants to lose the marriage, but can it be better than it was? Will you both be satisfied with it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope it can be better but I know it won't be anytime soon


----------



## LostViking

I think you're letting your wife off easy. She gets to have a fun sexual affair, defiles your castle by bringing the other man into it to have sex, comes close to destroying her family, and all it takes is for her to shed a few tears and you are willing to put all that aside to remain with her. 

At the very least you should ask her to leave for a few weeks to give you space to think. I bet if you did that she would run back to the other man in no time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BobSimmons

Dday said:


> I really do appreciate the time you guys are taking to write the long thought out posts.
> 
> I am confident I have the full truth about the affair, from when it started and when it got physical. What she told me could not be any worse. I have written down dates from my text message history with times she was out or I was out of town and that was after she told me everything. I spent hours on this trying to see if she was lying about anything.
> 
> I will tell you, and by no means am I taking responsibility in what happened, that reading 10 months worth of text messages really gave me a perspective of how I was talking to her. Everything was routine, one word answers, when you getting home, get the kids, no, and so on.
> 
> I do not see myself with setting up the spy gear. I know I'll get flamed for this but to me I have to learn to trust again. This can't help and is not feasible for the long term. Not to say I won't be following up with phone bills, friends and she will not have any more GNO sleep overs or anything like that. If I need to do the spy stuff I mine as well just give up now.
> 
> We have contacted a therapist and will be setting up time soon.
> 
> I have known my wife since we were 14, started dating at 16 and married at 25. I believe we are "soul mates" or whatever you want to call it.* She wants this as badly as I do and is willing to do anything to keep us together.*


Except when OM was poking her but let's gloss over that...


----------



## Dday

LostViking said:


> I think you're letting your wife off easy. She gets to have a fun sexual affair, defiles your castle by bringing the other man into it to have sex, comes close to destroying her family, and all it takes is for her to shed a few tears and you are willing to put all that aside to remain with her.
> 
> At the very least you should ask her to leave for a few weeks to give you space to think. *I bet if you did that she would run back to the other man in no time.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And how is that good for me? Because that is a sign that she will cheat again? I don't agree with that strategy, plus we have 3 kids to raise.


----------



## southernsurf

Does your wife work?


----------



## Dday

southernsurf said:


> Does your wife work?


Yes, she is a kindergarten teacher. Best friend is as well.


----------



## LostViking

Dday said:


> And how is that good for me? Because that is a sign that she will cheat again? I don't agree with that strategy, plus we have 3 kids to raise.


Think of it as a litmus test to prove her commitment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DavidWYoung

You are "Rug Sweeping" just as I did all those years ago because it is easier that way. Let me give you a heads up. It is going to kill you, bit by bit with the mind movies. Your wife will start dismissing you and your actions because she can. This is not going to end well, three kids or not. Good luck.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Dday said:


> And how is that good for me? Because that is a sign that she will cheat again? I don't agree with that strategy, plus we have 3 kids to raise.


I know you feel beaten up but there are reasons. More often than not in the case of a PA where the betrayed spouse moves instantly in to 'forgive and forget' mode, they are back here in no time with new information or new betrayals.

The reason for the period of separation is to be sure that she can commit to you, this marriage and this family. If she can't do this for such a short period of time, why would you have any confidence in her doing this for 20+ years?

A good wife and good mother does not endanger her family by exposing them to a recovering addict who is still under the influence. 

Her level of sophistication (having a burner phone, feeling ****y enough to BRING HIM IN YOUR HOME!) is an indicator that this is not a first time or short term occurrence. 

I'm not criticizing your want/need to reconcile but I would really caution you that you do not know your wife right now. 

Find The Deceived's thread - it's titled something like 'She Cheated. Wow'. It's very similar. His wife was hooking up with a drug user. He found out over the course of time about drug use and more details than originally shared. 

Your kids are learning from you right now, whether you realize it or not.

Fast forward 20 years. What advice would you give your own son after reading a few pages of threads on this board? Be honest with yourself on that.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Here's that thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/64959-she-cheated-wow.html

Wife broke no contact (she didn't even have a bff to do this as intermediary). No burner phone, no sophistication.


----------



## Shaggy

I wish you the very best and I hope it works out for you.

I'm going to stop contributing to your thread because at this point you aren't really soliciting or listening to suggestions but are instead saying you've got it all covered and you are sure you've got it handled,

Ok, then my help isn't need and i will move on with one parting warning:

You are right now the biggest threat to your own success because you are convinced you've got this all covered..


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Shaggy said:


> You are right now the biggest threat to your own success because you are convinced you've got this all covered..


:iagree:

You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink.


----------



## Ovid

Some space will also help you to think more clearly. When the shock wears off your thoughs, feelings, and considerations will change.


----------



## MattMatt

Trust, but verify. Good luck, OP. I hope your wife is worthy of your trust.


----------



## Dday

I have not been hiding my emotions or thoughts at all. In fact I haven't been to work since Dday. 

Shaggy, I appreciate your time you spent in my thread. I believe I am in a much better position having read your advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Dday said:


> I really do appreciate the time you guys are taking to write the long thought out posts.
> 
> I am confident I have the full truth about the affair, from when it started and when it got physical. What she told me could not be any worse. I have written down dates from my text message history with times she was out or I was out of town and that was after she told me everything. I spent hours on this trying to see if she was lying about anything.
> 
> I will tell you, and by no means am I taking responsibility in what happened, that reading 10 months worth of text messages really gave me a perspective of how I was talking to her. Everything was routine, one word answers, when you getting home, get the kids, no, and so on.
> 
> I do not see myself with setting up the spy gear. I know I'll get flamed for this but to me I have to learn to trust again. This can't help and is not feasible for the long term. Not to say I won't be following up with phone bills, friends and she will not have any more GNO sleep overs or anything like that. If I need to do the spy stuff I mine as well just give up now.
> 
> We have contacted a therapist and will be setting up time soon.
> 
> *I have known my wife since we were 14*, started dating at 16 and married at 25. I believe we are "soul mates" or whatever you want to call it. She wants this as badly as I do and is willing to do anything to keep us together.


You KNEW your Wife. She's a different person now, so get use to the idea. I hope it works out for you and good luck. How ever, the pain you're feeling right now is going to pale in comparison to the pain that you'll be in if she does cheat again. Don't get complacint again because now you KNOW what she is capable of. I'm not saying that you can't be happy again, just don't be fooled again. Take care.


----------



## southernsurf

Good luck, personally she would be sleeping down the hall if its me. The real value here won’t be apparent for another month or two or more. You will want someone to talk to and these faceless people know exactly where your head is at, and the pain. All the best, please keep progress reports coming.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Dday---this ain't that 14 yr old girl, it ain't the woman you took vows, with---when you both were in love with each other, and there was no one else, this is someone else, who willingly gave you sloppy 2nds for close to a yr., and defended her actions.

Your mge from what is sounds like, was never in any kind of real trouble---your wife was bored, and tired of same old, same old---but I gotta tell you---I would want to know why she is staying in the mge, and all of a sudden WANTS TO MAKE IT WORK---WHY IS THAT, CONSIDERING SHE FOUGHT YOU FOR MONTHS, when you tried to get her to stop, with her flirty adulterous, behavior

The biggest problem you will face from now on is your sub--conscious-----it will grab you at 3 a m when you can't sleep---it will get you as you drive to and from work alone---it will get you as you sit at work---or are on the road by yourself------the visions, are not gonna be easy to handle----and be prepared to deal with this for the next 2 to 5 yrs.

Your wife obviously is not gonna give up her job---but basically as a "K" teacher she has a lot of time to herself---HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE AIN'T GONNA HOOK UP-----You didn't know before, and you ain't gonna know in the future-------you already know everything out of her mouth are lies---so were is the trust coming from

A GPS is no good---her car can sit in the parking lot, and the lover can pick her up, and they can go anywhere----a GPS in the phone---same deal---she already knows about burner phones----you gotta wonder---HOW IS SHE SO SAVVY TO THE WAYS OF CHEATING

What are you gonna do, if she come home late or something out of the ordinary, happens----or are you gonna just trust blindly

This woman is a teacher ----She is one VERY BAD ROLE MODEL FOR LITTLE KIDS-----her resume now includes, cheating, lying, deceit, manipulation, bringing strangers into her own home, where her children are, and having sex with that stranger-------don't you think that makes her teacher resume, look real good??????


----------



## NewM

What is your plan on catching her if she buys another burner phone?If you don't spy on her you will have no way of catching her unless she,again,gets drunk and passes out with it in her hand.


----------



## HusbandInPain

DDay. 

I don't often post on this forum, but I found myself reading this thread and thought I would add my voice, for what it is worth.

Firstly, the people who are telling you that you are in shock and denial, are right on the money. Don't worry, this is perfectly normal and understandable, but you DO need to snap out of it. 

Now. With regards to STDs, you need to stop assuming you know anything. You KNEW your wife was faithful. You KNEW her "friend" was just a friend. Now you KNOW she is clean. Sleeping with her before she is tested is farmyard animal stupid. You have no idea what she could be transferring to you. Not all STDs require sexual contact. You have no idea what she might have transferred to the kids. Get her tested, for christ's sake, and stop sleeping with her. You are resisting taking a hard line on this because you are afraid that if you push to hard you will upset the delicate balance of nature and she will leave. 

I've got news for you. Your marriage is dead. Over. Done. You "may" be able to build a relationship with this woman that you clearly adore, but right now you are going the right way about losing her. The nicer and more understanding and amenable you are, the more likely she is to continue bonding with the other man. And please don't try to tell us that she has gone NC. We ALL thought that. OUR wives were special. OUR wives were different. It was all just ome big horrible mistake and now she has faced reality everything can slowly get back to normal. It's bull****. It's denial.

Equally, the VARs. again, you are resisting this because you are frightened of what it may reveal, or frightened of what may happen if you get caught. So you are handing over complete control of the relationship to you. she has already proven that she cannot be trusted. She has already proven that she is perfectly happy to lie to you. The woman you see may look like your sweetheart, but actually it's a manipulative liar who has spent time on the internet researching how best to keep her husband in the dark whilst she ****s another man. The marriage you are clinging to exists ONLY in your memory and in your hope that all of this is not happening. You need to wake up. If your wife is trustworthy, then monitoring her with a VAR will not be an issue will it. If she is not, then you need to know, and not hide from the fact. 

Right now you are resisting the advice on the forum. No doubt you have convinced yourself that your wife is different. Your marriage is different. Your situation is unique. It really isn't. You are both following the same script followed by thousands of BSs and WSs that have been through this forum before you. 

I know you want your wife back. I know you want your life back. Your life is your own, and not your wife's to take. If you want your wife back, then you need to step up and bloody fight for her. Because right now all you are doing is cementing over the death of your marriage rather than fixing it. Your wife has behaved like a selfish child, and needs treating appropriately until she can be an adult, which will take months if not years. THAT is reconciliation. Years of work from both parties. 

*You need from her*

1. Complete NC, and no bull****, no last meeting, no last email, N.C.
2. Strip toxic friends and family. If they knew about the affair and did not act, lose them. doesn't matter whether they are mother, father, brother, sister, best friend forever. If they are not friends of the marriage, then wave goodbye.
3. Complete transparency. Every email account, every phone account, facebook, twitter, bank, landline, everything. No secrets. A complete open life. If she resists this, its because there is more to tell you. 

*You need for yourself*

1. to see a lawyer and find out your options. Welcome to the roller coaster. You want to reconcile today. A few months from now you will hate her with a passion you cannot dream of. The day after that you will love her again. Where you will stop is anyone's guess.
2. Go and buy some bloody condoms. 

Now go and slap yourself. You want your wife to respect you. That's not happening until YOU respect yourself. Giving her control over the marriage is going to result in two things. One, this affair will continue, and two, you are going to be back here in a few months, devastated all over again. The passion behind everyone's post is not because they are mocking you, it's because they would spare you that pain. Many of them, hell many of us, went through it.

You cannot nice your wife out of her affair. You are not the man she loves. You are not the man she misses. You are not the man she thinks of in bed. Being with you is difficult, painful, awkward. It reminds her of her actions. Meanwhile you are bending over and letting her dominate you, whilst avoiding anything that forces her to face reality. This signals doom for your marriage. So wake up, be the man you know deep down you are, and drag your wife kicking and ****ing screaming out of her affair and back into your marriage if thats what you want. What you REALLY need to do is slap divorce papers in front of her, thats the single most likely thing to wake her up and make her recommit, but I don't believe for a second that you have the emotional strength to do that right now. In time, you will have. Just hang in there.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

HusbandInPain said:


> DDay.
> 
> I don't often post on this forum, but I found myself reading this thread and thought I would add my voice, for what it is worth.
> 
> Firstly, the people who are telling you that you are in shock and denial, are right on the money. Don't worry, this is perfectly normal and understandable, but you DO need to snap out of it.
> 
> Now. With regards to STDs, you need to stop assuming you know anything. You KNEW your wife was faithful. You KNEW her "friend" was just a friend. Now you KNOW she is clean. Sleeping with her before she is tested is farmyard animal stupid. You have no idea what she could be transferring to you. Not all STDs require sexual contact. You have no idea what she might have transferred to the kids. Get her tested, for christ's sake, and stop sleeping with her. You are resisting taking a hard line on this because you are afraid that if you push to hard you will upset the delicate balance of nature and she will leave.
> 
> I've got news for you. Your marriage is dead. Over. Done. You "may" be able to build a relationship with this woman that you clearly adore, but right now you are going the right way about losing her. The nicer and more understanding and amenable you are, the more likely she is to continue bonding with the other man. And please don't try to tell us that she has gone NC. We ALL thought that. OUR wives were special. OUR wives were different. It was all just ome big horrible mistake and now she has faced reality everything can slowly get back to normal. It's bull****. It's denial.
> 
> Equally, the VARs. again, you are resisting this because you are frightened of what it may reveal, or frightened of what may happen if you get caught. So you are handing over complete control of the relationship to you. she has already proven that she cannot be trusted. She has already proven that she is perfectly happy to lie to you. The woman you see may look like your sweetheart, but actually it's a manipulative liar who has spent time on the internet researching how best to keep her husband in the dark whilst she ****s another man. The marriage you are clinging to exists ONLY in your memory and in your hope that all of this is not happening. You need to wake up. If your wife is trustworthy, then monitoring her with a VAR will not be an issue will it. If she is not, then you need to know, and not hide from the fact.
> 
> Right now you are resisting the advice on the forum. No doubt you have convinced yourself that your wife is different. Your marriage is different. Your situation is unique. It really isn't. You are both following the same script followed by thousands of BSs and WSs that have been through this forum before you.
> 
> I know you want your wife back. I know you want your life back. Your life is your own, and not your wife's to take. If you want your wife back, then you need to step up and bloody fight for her. Because right now all you are doing is cementing over the death of your marriage rather than fixing it. Your wife has behaved like a selfish child, and needs treating appropriately until she can be an adult, which will take months if not years. THAT is reconciliation. Years of work from both parties.
> 
> *You need from her*
> 
> 1. Complete NC, and no bull****, no last meeting, no last email, N.C.
> 2. Strip toxic friends and family. If they knew about the affair and did not act, lose them. doesn't matter whether they are mother, father, brother, sister, best friend forever. If they are not friends of the marriage, then wave goodbye.
> 3. Complete transparency. Every email account, every phone account, facebook, twitter, bank, landline, everything. No secrets. A complete open life. If she resists this, its because there is more to tell you.
> 
> *You need for yourself*
> 
> 1. to see a lawyer and find out your options. Welcome to the roller coaster. You want to reconcile today. A few months from now you will hate her with a passion you cannot dream of. The day after that you will love her again. Where you will stop is anyone's guess.
> 2. Go and buy some bloody condoms.
> 
> Now go and slap yourself. You want your wife to respect you. That's not happening until YOU respect yourself. Giving her control over the marriage is going to result in two things. One, this affair will continue, and two, you are going to be back here in a few months, devastated all over again. The passion behind everyone's post is not because they are mocking you, it's because they would spare you that pain. Many of them, hell many of us, went through it.
> 
> You cannot nice your wife out of her affair. You are not the man she loves. You are not the man she misses. You are not the man she thinks of in bed. Being with you is difficult, painful, awkward. It reminds her of her actions. Meanwhile you are bending over and letting her dominate you, whilst avoiding anything that forces her to face reality. This signals doom for your marriage. So wake up, be the man you know deep down you are, and drag your wife kicking and ****ing screaming out of her affair and back into your marriage if thats what you want. What you REALLY need to do is slap divorce papers in front of her, thats the single most likely thing to wake her up and make her recommit, but I don't believe for a second that you have the emotional strength to do that right now. In time, you will have. Just hang in there.


:iagree: Wonderful post. There is too much sincere truth in this to ignore.


----------



## Chaparral

How do you figure she got involved with him? He is a grown man who is a drug addict and has to live with his mom.

You will feel much better if you go to walmart or best buy and get a voice activated recorde, the ones that cost about 50 bucks. The cheaper ones do ot do to well.

The info you get will really help you if she is being honest with you. It doesn't just find out if she is doing something wrong, it will help you immensely if you know she is trying to save her family.


----------



## Chaparral

Its only been a few days. Most guys react like you are reacting. Some jump on it with both feet and have a lot of success. Some more get it after a short while and some of them are successful. If you do not stsrt doing the things you need to do there is not much hope for your family.

Read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. Download it if you can, or oreder the book from amazon. It is not a sex manual, just oddly named. You will get avtrue understanding of what has happened and there is also a guide, the MAP, that will give you a plan of how to restore you relationship to what it should be.

You and your wife should read the best book on infidelity, NOT JUST FRIENDS, by Shirley Glass. This also will show you both what needs to be done to recover.

Make sure any therapist you find has knowledge of Glass' work.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, MMSLP is for men, the other book is for you both.


----------



## SadandAngry

Dday said:


> The best friend thought something was going on. She just didn't confront them. I listened to my wife admit it to her and she was not in on it.
> 
> I also know that it happened at my house when I was away for work. I don't travel often but there were about 6 nights in the last 9 months I was away. She admitted to having him over in the basement after kids went to sleep.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So she thought something was going on, but not that you might be interested to know that? That alone is enough to cut her out of your life, let alone the fact that I for one don't believe it.


----------



## SadandAngry

chapparal said:


> Its only been a few days. Most guys react like you are reacting. Some jump on it with both feet and have a lot of success. Some more get it after a short while and some of them are successful. If you do not stsrt doing the things you need to do there is not much hope for your family.
> 
> Read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. Download it if you can, or oreder the book from amazon. It is not a sex manual, just oddly named. You will get avtrue understanding of what has happened and there is also a guide, the MAP, that will give you a plan of how to restore you relationship to what it should be.
> 
> You and your wife should read the best book on infidelity, NOT JUST FRIENDS, by Shirley Glass. This also will show you both what needs to be done to recover.
> 
> Make sure any therapist you find has knowledge of Glass' work.


Add No More Mr Nice Guy to the reading list. You need to see what it is inside you that contributed to your situation.


----------



## Dday

chapparal said:


> Its only been a few days. Most guys react like you are reacting. Some jump on it with both feet and have a lot of success. Some more get it after a short while and some of them are successful. If you do not stsrt doing the things you need to do there is not much hope for your family.
> 
> Read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. Download it if you can, or oreder the book from amazon. It is not a sex manual, just oddly named. You will get avtrue understanding of what has happened and there is also a guide, the MAP, that will give you a plan of how to restore you relationship to what it should be.
> 
> You and your wife should read the best book on infidelity, NOT JUST FRIENDS, by Shirley Glass. This also will show you both what needs to be done to recover.
> 
> Make sure any therapist you find has knowledge of Glass' work.


We have started to read not just friends. 



chapparal said:


> How do you figure she got involved with him? He is a grown man who is a drug addict and has to live with his mom.


He lives with his sister as well, who is my wife's best friend. She started going over there in the summer with the kids because they are both teachers. Since he is a loser and has no job he got to spend plenty of time with them. 

She would also go out with her friend and instead of driving 30 minutes home after she had a few drinks she would spend the night there. I immediately expressed concern but was told nothing to worry about. Especially when she said he would let her sleep in his bed and he would sleep on the couch. I put an end to that, or I thought I did but she then just started lying about where she slept. 

He started by helping with the kids and entertaining them, had conversations with her, she complained about me and what I wasn't doing around the house and basically developed an emotional affair. After a couple months of that it became physical.


----------



## Dday

SadandAngry said:


> So she thought something was going on, but not that you might be interested to know that? That alone is enough to cut her out of your life, let alone the fact that I for one don't believe it.


She wouldn't come to me without going to wife first. I think she was more just looking the other way.


----------



## warlock07

How are you today?


----------



## terrence4159

i so sorry you are here just read your thread. you need to do what these posters tell you IF you want ANY chance at saving this. you are going about it half wrong.


----------



## Dday

warlock07 said:


> How are you today?


Tonight will be 1 week since "Dday". Everyday is the same but different. The same because this is all I can think about. I can't concentrate on work. My only relief has been coaching my kids tball team. Different because there have been a mix of emotions everyday. From disbelief and shock to angry to probably depressed and now I am just in pain. It's tough to describe but it just hurts. 

My wife and I have talked ALOT this week. She has answered every question she could and some questions about 10 times. I am afraid of the trickle truth so I ask every possible question and she has given me answers to everything.... Except why she would do this and how she could... I'm not still in shock or denial, I know it happened, everything that happened I just can't get over this woman I have known just about my whole life is capable of this. She is clearly upset with the hurt she has caused me and our close friends. I don't think she would ever do this again and has made promises not to. I know she made the same promise during our wedding but she has now seen the consequences. Speaking of weddings, we have one to attend tonight for our friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

It's a long hard process - there will be easier times than others and really hard times. She needs to understand the commitment and hard work SHE needs to do for YOU to make this R successful.

I'm in the camp that says she should break it off with the BFF that 'turned the other way' but if that's not possible, that communication needs to be very limited and monitored. It's just too new and vulnerable.

There also needs to be a LOT of work on her side to find the source of why she allowed herself to do this. There is something self-destructive there that needs to be fixed.


----------



## Dday

TCSRedhead said:


> It's a long hard process - there will be easier times than others and really hard times. She needs to understand the commitment and hard work SHE needs to do for YOU to make this R successful.
> 
> I'm in the camp that says she should break it off with the BFF that 'turned the other way' but if that's not possible, that communication needs to be very limited and monitored. It's just too new and vulnerable.
> 
> There also needs to be a LOT of work on her side to find the source of why she allowed herself to do this. There is something self-destructive there that needs to be fixed.


Thanks for the reply

She is or says she is willing to do whatever is needed 

The best friend situation is difficult. I haven't talked to her myself yet. they do work together and my wife has told me their conversations so far. It's going to be different for them and I don't know how their friendship will play out. 90% of the time my wife was going there not the other way around. I guess it's pretty obvious why now. My wife said that her bf thinks I hate her, which I don't, but it will be tough to be friends with her when I want to hurt her brother
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Yeah - it might be tough but there are prices to pay for the actions she's taken. This would be a big action to SHOW you what she's willing to do. 

What she says is right but the important thing is what she SHOWS you that matters. She should be making sure you have usernames/passwords to all accounts (email/FB/social networks), that you have access at will to her phone, that her phone/text logs match what is on the bill, etc. 

I can tell you that while I said I was sorry, regretted my actions, etc., it wasn't until I started DOING things that we were really able to begin reconciliation. 

Saying things are easy, doing them is tough. 

She should also be seeking out counseling/therapy for herself, looking at testing for STD's to be sure she isn't putting your health on the line. The drug use is an added hazard (I know you're sensitive to this but it's a real statistic).


----------



## aug

Can your wife get a transfer?


----------



## walkonmars

TCSRedhead said:


> *Yeah - it might be tough but there are prices to pay for the actions she's taken. This would be a big action to SHOW you what she's willing to do.
> *
> What she says is right but the important thing is what she SHOWS you that matters. She should be making sure you have usernames/passwords to all accounts (email/FB/social networks), that you have access at will to her phone, that her phone/text logs match what is on the bill, etc.
> 
> I can tell you that while I said I was sorry, regretted my actions, etc., it wasn't until I started DOING things that we were really able to begin reconciliation.
> 
> Saying things are easy, doing them is tough.
> 
> She should also be seeking out counseling/therapy for herself, looking at testing for STD's to be sure she isn't putting your health on the line. The drug use is an added hazard (I know you're sensitive to this but it's a real statistic).



Great post. 

Precisely (the bold). 
Read this post again.


----------



## bryanp

Do not be intimate with her until both of you get tested for STD's. She was willing to destroy her marriage and family for this bum?


----------



## Dday

aug said:


> Can your wife get a transfer?


Not in the middle of the school year. That wouldn't be possible
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Have you thought that maybe your wife isn't really that keen on BFF, and instead became so close to her so that she could be with the OM? 

That relationship might wane and die now

I do strongly suggest you talk to both your wife and the bf and lay down firmly the ground rule that the BF will not provide any info, even gossip or comments about the OM to your wife.

Even her telling you wife that the OM had a good day will hurt your chances for R because it will feed your wife's emotional and sexual bond to him.

So he must essential be treated like he doesn't exist.


Btw, has your wife told you if the OM has contacted her? Don't you find it impassable that he hasn't tried this past week?


----------



## walkonmars

Dday said:


> .. I'm not still in shock or denial,
> 
> Hmm, by your reactions I think you're still in "please, don't change my life" shock
> 
> I know it happened, everything that happened I just can't get over this woman I have known just about my whole life is capable of this.
> Maybe you do know everything, maybe you don't. Also, why didn't she realize the hurt she was causing after 1 month? after 90 days? after 200 days? Did you ask her how long she intended to keep this up? When was her moral switch going to be turned to the "on" position?
> 
> She is clearly upset with the hurt she has caused me and our close friends. I don't think she would ever do this again and has made promises not to...
> 
> Are you certain it's not pain over having been found out? Yep... her word is worth .... spit. So, she NOW know the damage. She didn't know it 1 month ago? 2 months ago? If she didn't recognize it then, how will she recognize it later?
> 
> Have her switch schools after this semester.


----------



## Shaggy

Also I suggest you set a date now, say for 4 months from today when she will go take a polygraph and one of the questions will be about there being any contact or sex since dday.

Tell your wife this now and set the date. Even remind her in the coming weeks that the date is set and you will expect her to go.


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## Shaggy

Forgot to add, that you need to figure out what you can do about the summer when she is off. Since she used the kids as cover before, what's to stop her using outings with the kids to meet up with him?


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## Dday

TCSRedhead said:


> Yeah - it might be tough but there are prices to pay for the actions she's taken. This would be a big action to SHOW you what she's willing to do.
> 
> What she says is right but the important thing is what she SHOWS you that matters. She should be making sure you have usernames/passwords to all accounts (email/FB/social networks), that you have access at will to her phone, that her phone/text logs match what is on the bill, etc.
> 
> I can tell you that while I said I was sorry, regretted my actions, etc., it wasn't until I started DOING things that we were really able to begin reconciliation.
> 
> Saying things are easy, doing them is tough.
> 
> She should also be seeking out counseling/therapy for herself, looking at testing for STD's to be sure she isn't putting your health on the line. The drug use is an added hazard (I know you're sensitive to this but it's a real statistic).


We always have had an open book with emails/Facebook our regular phones. Hence why she got the burner phone. There were some phone calls a year ago I questioned and I'm sure she knew I would catch on if she didn't get the other phone. 

What type of things did you need to do? 

Counseling and testing are in the works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Dday said:


> We always have had an open book with emails/Facebook our regular phones. Hence why she got the burner phone. There were some phone calls a year ago I questioned and I'm sure she knew I would catch on if she didn't get the other phone.
> 
> What type of things did you need to do?
> 
> Counseling and testing are in the works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to say getting a burner phone is kinda advanced cheater-mode. I was using my phone on our shared plan. It hadn't occurred to me to get a separate one.

Has she answered where/how/why she got this? When did she get this? When was she using this phone? Do you have access to all the records/texts from that now?

So, some of what I do now (unasked by him) is: 

1. Call/text when leaving work.
2. No drinking when not with him. Period. 
3. I travel for work, so I Skype him when I get back to my room. He can see that I'm back in my room, makeup off, tucked in bed.
4. All questions answered - even if he's asked them 20 times before.
5. No blaming him EVER for why I did what I did. Our marriage may have had problems, but the choice to cheat is MINE alone.
6. Reading Not Just Friends
7. Completely recommitting to my marriage FIRST before everything else. I literally would quit my job if he asked me to and not think twice. 
8. If I go anywhere with my girl friends, I text him periodically (and send pictures) so he sees/knows what's happening. No drinking or staying out late. We go shopping, have dinner and I go home. 
9. Trying to anticipate things that may trigger him - asking what I can do for HIM to help him. 

I agree - there needs to be a plan for the summer.


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> Have you thought that maybe your wife isn't really that keen on BFF, and instead became so close to her so that she could be with the OM?
> 
> That relationship might wane and die now
> 
> I do strongly suggest you talk to both your wife and the bf and lay down firmly the ground rule that the BF will not provide any info, even gossip or comments about the OM to your wife.
> 
> Even her telling you wife that the OM had a good day will hurt your chances for R because it will feed your wife's emotional and sexual bond to him.
> 
> So he must essential be treated like he doesn't exist.
> 
> 
> Btw, has your wife told you if the OM has contacted her? Don't you find it impassable that he hasn't tried this past week?


All of those thoughts have crossed my mind. As of now the bf hasn't talked about the brother. Apparently they don't talk much especially about this. 

I ask everyday if he has tried and nothing yet unless she is lying. I know it will happen and my wife promises not to respond. My fear is it will be in person at her coffee stop on the morning where he would meet her on occasion. When he decided to roll out of bed. I don't think my wife will have the will power to walk away without saying something to him. 

I do think he will wait until after this week to try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

Shaggy said:


> Forgot to add, that you need to figure out what you can do about the summer when she is off. Since she used the kids as cover before, what's to stop her using outings with the kids to meet up with him?


Yes I have and I don't know how to handle that right now. Last summer is how the relationship developed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Dday said:


> All of those thoughts have crossed my mind. As of now the bf hasn't talked about the brother. Apparently they don't talk much especially about this.
> 
> I ask everyday if he has tried and nothing yet unless she is lying. I know it will happen and my wife promises not to respond. My fear is it will be in person at her coffee stop on the morning where he would meet her on occasion. When he decided to roll out of bed. I don't think my wife will have the will power to walk away without saying something to him.
> 
> I do think he will wait until after this week to try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Coffee shop is not now a stop for her. Problem of that 'run-in' solved! Make and take coffee from home or find a new place.

That one was easy.


----------



## Dday

TCSRedhead said:


> I have to say getting a burner phone is kinda advanced cheater-mode. I was using my phone on our shared plan. It hadn't occurred to me to get a separate one.
> 
> Has she answered where/how/why she got this? When did she get this? When was she using this phone? Do you have access to all the records/texts from that now?
> 
> So, some of what I do now (unasked by him) is:
> 
> 1. Call/text when leaving work.
> 2. No drinking when not with him. Period.
> 3. I travel for work, so I Skype him when I get back to my room. He can see that I'm back in my room, makeup off, tucked in bed.
> 4. All questions answered - even if he's asked them 20 times before.
> 5. No blaming him EVER for why I did what I did. Our marriage may have had problems, but the choice to cheat is MINE alone.
> 6. Reading Not Just Friends
> 7. Completely recommitting to my marriage FIRST before everything else. I literally would quit my job if he asked me to and not think twice.
> 8. If I go anywhere with my girl friends, I text him periodically (and send pictures) so he sees/knows what's happening. No drinking or staying out late. We go shopping, have dinner and I go home.
> 9. Trying to anticipate things that may trigger him - asking what I can do for HIM to help him.
> 
> I agree - there needs to be a plan for the summer.


They got the phone at Walmart for about $17 and you could text for about $20 per month. She got it because she knew I looked at phone records and we always leave our phones out for each other to look at. She got the phone in sept/oct after it got physical. The phone was a piece of shiat and you could only view the last 10 received and sent messages. That's all I needed to see. I don't have the phone now,.. I smashed it up and sent it to the OM with a letter

Thanks for the list, she is doing a few of those.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Dday said:


> They got the phone at Walmart for about $17 and you could text for about $20 per month. She got it because she knew I looked at phone records and we always leave our phones out for each other to look at. She got the phone in sept/oct after it got physical. The phone was a piece of shiat and you could only view the last 10 received and sent messages. That's all I needed to see. I don't have the phone now,.. I smashed it up and sent it to the OM with a letter
> 
> Thanks for the list, she is doing a few of those.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh yea, there were 18000+ sent messages and 13000+ received
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Dday said:


> They got the phone at Walmart for about $17 and you could text for about $20 per month. She got it because she knew I looked at phone records and we always leave our phones out for each other to look at. She got the phone in sept/oct after it got physical. The phone was a piece of shiat and you could only view the last 10 received and sent messages. That's all I needed to see. I don't have the phone now,.. I smashed it up and sent it to the OM with a letter
> 
> Thanks for the list, she is doing a few of those.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Add to it:

SHE makes a plan for the summer that YOU agree will make you feel that she is committed to making this work. (my suggestion: making a detailed daily schedule that she can give you and then give you updates via text/email through the day).


----------



## TCSRedhead

Check out the Reconciliation thread - you'll find some good people who are working on R there who will also have good advice/feedback.


----------



## jim123

Dday said:


> They got the phone at Walmart for about $17 and you could text for about $20 per month. She got it because she knew I looked at phone records and we always leave our phones out for each other to look at. She got the phone in sept/oct after it got physical. The phone was a piece of shiat and you could only view the last 10 received and sent messages. That's all I needed to see. I don't have the phone now,.. I smashed it up and sent it to the OM with a letter
> 
> Thanks for the list, she is doing a few of those.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She will get around anything anyway.

You see her as the person you loved but that person is long gone.

She can lie to you face with out a problem. She had no shame in sleeping with him in a house full of people including your kids.

She can be with him in front of you. That was all in your face. A total disrepect. Don't you think you were a big joke to them,


----------



## warlock07

Just reiterating whats been said again. Your wife's affair is not a special case. It is something we see repeatedly on this site. Quite often, the affair resumes the cheaters take it underground. If that is the case, it will will be up to your luck to find about it. Your haste and panic to reconcile is detrimental in the long term.

Have you thought about why this change of heart happened ? She was hell bent on having the affair. It is not something she had on the side hidden from you. She pursued it, fought with you to continue the relationship. She kept lying to you everyday about it. 

Your wife is not you. Don't make the mistake of thinking that she has the same ethics and morals as yours. It should be evident by now. Just because she is telling the truth does not mean she will not resume it again. It takes a level of detachment to repeatedly lie and cheat on you for a long time. So stay vigilant for some time.


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## warlock07

Check out forlorn99 threads when you can. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/46692-wife-cheated.html

He made the same mistakes that you are doing now.


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## cledus_snow

i'm not trying to dissuade you, but you are gonna have to play babysitter for a grown woman for the foreseeable future. are you sure that's what you really want? 


good luck, though..... you're gonna need it.


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> All of those thoughts have crossed my mind. As of now the bf hasn't talked about the brother. Apparently they don't talk much especially about this.
> 
> I ask everyday if he has tried and nothing yet *unless she is lying*. I know it will happen and my wife promises not to respond. My fear is it will be in person at her coffee stop on the morning where he would meet her on occasion. When he decided to roll out of bed. I don't think my wife will have the will power to walk away without saying something to him.
> 
> I do think he will wait until after this week to try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you against putting a voice-activated recorder and gps in the car, unbeknownst to your wife? Don't you think it would be good for your marriage, either way? - if you find nothing after a few weeks you can start to feel better about trusting her; if you do find something, at least you can tackle it before it gets out of hand.

Have you asked your wife to come up with a list of things she can do to re-build your trust and make you feel safer that she won't re-start the affair? And when she does, if not stopping at the coffee shop where she met him previously is not on it, ask her if she thinks it would be a good idea to stop at a different coffee shop, or make coffee at home?

Are you afraid of asking for the things you really need or really want from your wife for fear that she will leave you?


----------



## jim123

She has been lying so long she will have difficulty telling the truth.

The OM has been a habit and has replaced you in her heart.

An A is an addiction and it is difficult for the addict to stop. You are making it not neccessary to stop. Please read some of the other treads who have taken your approach. All regreted it and wish they acted stronger.

Do not forgive too soon. It is always a mistake


----------



## southernsurf

Dday said:


> Oh yea, there were 18000+ sent messages and 13000+ received
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


is this correct - thats over 100/day for 9 months. She is evil inside and keep this hidden. That person doesn't go away over night


----------



## Dday

southernsurf said:


> is this correct - thats over 100/day for 9 months. She is evil inside and keep this hidden. That person doesn't go away over night


The phone was only in play for about 7 months


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> Are you against putting a voice-activated recorder and gps in the car, unbeknownst to your wife? Don't you think it would be good for your marriage, either way? - if you find nothing after a few weeks you can start to feel better about trusting her; if you do find something, at least you can tackle it before it gets out of hand.
> 
> Have you asked your wife to come up with a list of things she can do to re-build your trust and make you feel safer that she won't re-start the affair? And when she does, if not stopping at the coffee shop where she met him previously is not on it, ask her if she thinks it would be a good idea to stop at a different coffee shop, or make coffee at home?
> 
> Are you afraid of asking for the things you really need or really want from your wife for fear that she will leave you?


In a way I want him to reach out so I know how she reacts. In a way it will give the A some closure if she handles it the right way. 

I am not afraid of asking for anything, I just don't want to have a million rules and expectations that are small or meaningless. I'm trying to keep it clear and simple. Contact with him and we are done.


----------



## SadandAngry

And how will you know if there is contact?


----------



## SadandAngry

Do you realise you are trusting an addict to make a rational choice to quit the drug she's been on for 9 months?


----------



## Chaparral

I am assuming you haven't done this. If wrong let me know and I can delete this. It has helped many people here.

Print this off and kindly go over it with your wife. You can usually tell a lot about where her head is really at from her reaction. Many have a very emotional response.

I also hope you have read MMSLP by now and found many answers to why this happens. NOT JUST FRIENDS, by Shirley Glass is also a must read for you both.

_Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!_


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## crazyace

I see that you r in this marriage STILL because you love your kid and may be love ur wife ... But your Wife is NOW in this marriage because ??


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## southernsurf

Dday said:


> In a way I want him to reach out so I know how she reacts. In a way it will give the A some closure if she handles it the right way.
> 
> I am not afraid of asking for anything, I just don't want to have a million rules and expectations that are small or meaningless. I'm trying to keep it clear and simple. Contact with him and we are done.



I agree with you on this point, it sounds like you really are not mentally or emotionally ready to cut the string to her and D. I would not want to live a life of always wondering, never trusting, looking over the shoulder, checking phones, and spying all the time. You’ll drive yourself nuts! If I had to live like that I would end it immediately and move on. You and only you know the person and have to make that decision. So, if that is the case, that you want to give it 1 last chance, do it, its clearly your decision, but my warning to you is be emotionally strong and ready for the worse. I’ve seen this happen, people can change, but usually they make this type of radical change you are looking for only after they have hit rock bottom. She isn't there yet. You are waiting for a test from the OM rather than you test her. Be careful, that’s why we have been telling you to rock her world to see how she reacts. Stay strong and in control, call all the shots. Too soon to say where this is headed.


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## jim123

D Day,

It may seem we are beating you up. This is your only chance to save your marriage. A WS is never prepared or the fall out. This is your last chance. This is not the time for if you do it again speach. Not a time to say next time.

She can loose everything and you have to show her that. You have to do it. You have to make her live it. Kind of "It's a Wonderfull Life" Let her she what her life will be.without you and the family


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## Dday

crazyace said:


> I see that you r in this marriage STILL because you love your kid and may be love ur wife ... But your Wife is NOW in this marriage because ??


Yes I do love my kids and my wife. I thought a lot about life without her and that is not what I want. 

My wife has no reason for her actions or how she could of done this to me or our family. She said she never stopped loving me and has made it clear to me that she wants to be in this marriage.


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## Dday

southernsurf said:


> I agree with you on this point, it sounds like you really are not mentally or emotionally ready to cut the string to her and D. I would not want to live a life of always wondering, never trusting, looking over the shoulder, checking phones, and spying all the time. You’ll drive yourself nuts! If I had to live like that I would end it immediately and move on. You and only you know the person and have to make that decision. So, if that is the case, that you want to give it 1 last chance, do it, its clearly your decision, but my warning to you is be emotionally strong and ready for the worse. I’ve seen this happen, people can change, but usually they make this type of radical change you are looking for only after they have hit rock bottom. She isn't there yet. You are waiting for a test from the OM rather than you test her. Be careful, that’s why we have been telling you to rock her world to see how she reacts. Stay strong and in control, call all the shots. Too soon to say where this is headed.


Thanks for the reply. I was away all day yesterday and it was tough not knowing what she was doing. I am not the controlling type an don't want to be that way even now. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to be aware more then ever before what is happening. 

I understand what the overall pattern is with my situation and I guess I do think we are different. It may be a fatal mistake but one I will have to live with. If I am wrong and she goes back to OM or someone else I don't think it will hurt as bad as it does now.


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## jim123

Over the last nine months she has not been thinking of you at all.

The man has no job and has issues so leaving you for him is not really an option at the moment.

This was not a one night stand. This went on for nine months. She was sending 100 texts a day to him. How much time did that leave to love you.


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## SadandAngry

Look at your last couple of posts. They are exactly why we are hammering away at you, trying desperately to break through to you. 

You and your wife ARE NO DIFFERENT than the rest of us! You aren't special, somehow immune to the trivialities of life that the rest of us go through. How arrogant and conceited are you anyway?

You are believing the words she is telling you now, because you so desperately want to believe them. HER WORDS RIGHT NOW DON'T MEAN JACK ****! SHE IS A LIAR! Look at her actions, not her words, they do not match up. You are right, there is no way a rational person would trade you for him, but that's exactly the path she has chosen for the last year. Newflash: your wife is not thinking rationally! Stop acting as if she is! 

You are handing your life to a drug addicted (I'm talking dopamine), lying, deceitful cheat, and you are hoping everything will turn out ok, because she used to be a good person, and you really don't want your life to be so messy. We have all seen this before. Some of us have lived it. It will not go well. You are setting yourself up to fail miserably. It's bad for you, bad for your wife, bad for your children. Please read the posts that have been written in your thread. Do some of the things that we have told you to do over and over. They will help you in the end. Even if it hastens the end of your marriage, you and your kids will be better off. And I'm not saying our advice will kill your marriage, following our advice won't kill it, it would only show you it is already dead. If it doesn't end, it will give you a more stable foundation upon which to rebuild if you choose to do so. You are still very early on, you haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the emotions you will need to deal with yet. You will get better, eventually, but you are going to get a lot worse first.


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## crazyace

Dday said:


> Yes I do love my kids and my wife. I thought a lot about life without her and that is not what I want.
> 
> My wife has no reason for her actions or how she could of done this to me or our family. She said she never stopped loving me and has made it clear to me that she wants to be in this marriage.


Your wife is certainly giving you a lip service here ... she is saying all this only because she is caught and knows that she leaving or you kicking her out is going to get her in financial trouble as the OM has nothing and is only a steep liablity .. she was lying in your marriage, sayin 'I love you' to you and then going to her Bf's home with you 'KID' and sleeping with the OM. All planned !! ... tell me .. was she equally intimate with you when she was sleeping with the OM ?? .. She has agreed that she has been sleeping with the OM because she had passion for him and it felt better with him ... I again say this ... is has stopped or refrained temporarily because she is caught and would lose a healthy lifestyle ... She is making an a** out of you by again saying that she never stopped loving you ... Cantfigure this out .. "Honey, I love you .. bye" ... Ok now time to get dirty with the OM ... Believe me , she is not honest with you yet and wit your relationship..


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## Chaparral

Before you go further, have you read the two books linked to below? In order to move on you hsve to have a guide. YOU WILL NOT MAKE IT IF YOU TRY TO DO THIS ON YOUR OWN. Both books will take the confusion away and give you a plan of action.

Again trying to reinvent the wheel will get you burnt.

She is bound to discuss this with someone. The most likely place is in her car, put a 50 dollar var in there, velcroed under the seat. It is worth many times its weight in gold to KNOW the truth. That doesn't mean the trufh will be bad.

When she talks to you at this point, you should be thinking about how much you would believe if she were a used car salesman. In other words, nothing you can't verify.


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## Dday

SadandAngry said:


> Look at your last couple of posts. They are exactly why we are hammering away at you, trying desperately to break through to you.
> 
> You and your wife ARE NO DIFFERENT than the rest of us! You aren't special, somehow immune to the trivialities of life that the rest of us go through. How arrogant and conceited are you anyway?
> 
> You are believing the words she is telling you now, because you so desperately want to believe them. HER WORDS RIGHT NOW DON'T MEAN JACK ****! SHE IS A LIAR! Look at her actions, not her words, they do not match up. You are right, there is no way a rational person would trade you for him, but that's exactly the path she has chosen for the last year. Newflash: your wife is not thinking rationally! Stop acting as if she is!
> 
> You are handing your life to a drug addicted (I'm talking dopamine), lying, deceitful cheat, and you are hoping everything will turn out ok, because she used to be a good person, and you really don't want your life to be so messy. We have all seen this before. Some of us have lived it. It will not go well. You are setting yourself up to fail miserably. It's bad for you, bad for your wife, bad for your children. Please read the posts that have been written in your thread. Do some of the things that we have told you to do over and over. They will help you in the end. Even if it hastens the end of your marriage, you and your kids will be better off. And I'm not saying our advice will kill your marriage, following our advice won't kill it, it would only show you it is already dead. If it doesn't end, it will give you a more stable foundation upon which to rebuild if you choose to do so. You are still very early on, you haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the emotions you will need to deal with yet. You will get better, eventually, but you are going to get a lot worse first.


Trust me I don't think we are immune to the trivialities of life. I did before, but I'm sure everyone here never thought that this would happen to them. I'm just saying the way we communicate/how I am as a person I feel this is the best way to go about saving our marriage. She is not saying stuff just because I want to hear them, in fact she admits to still having feelings for OM. I saw in another thread how some WS's have a light bulb go off when the A is exposed and they see exactly what they were doing. They were unaware if all of the lies, what damage they were going to their BS's and families. 

If she is full of bs and everything she is saying is a lie right now, I would be surprised. I am not handing my life over to her in any way, she is remorseful, she says sorry whenever I need her too, and she is upset with herself for being so stupid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

crazyace said:


> Your wife is certainly giving you a lip service here ... she is saying all this only because she is caught and knows that she leaving or you kicking her out is going to get her in financial trouble as the OM has nothing and is only a steep liablity .. she was lying in your marriage, sayin 'I love you' to you and then going to her Bf's home with you 'KID' and sleeping with the OM. All planned !! ... tell me .. was she equally intimate with you when she was sleeping with the OM ?? .. She has agreed that she has been sleeping with the OM because she had passion for him and it felt better with him ... I again say this ... is has stopped or refrained temporarily because she is caught and would lose a healthy lifestyle ... She is making an a** out of you by again saying that she never stopped loving you ... Cantfigure this out .. "Honey, I love you .. bye" ... Ok now time to get dirty with the OM ... Believe me , she is not honest with you yet and wit your relationship..


It all could be lip service... Your absolutely right. She obviously wasn't honest with me for the past 9 months but I think she is now. You have to trust your gut right? If I would of trusted my gut I would of stopped this when it was only an EA before it became a PA 7 months ago. Now I know what she is capable of and she will never have my unconditional trust again. So I am skeptical of what she says and I do question her motives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

The light does not go on without strong actions by the BS. You may think you are doing the best way and many on TAM have tried your way. They are now telling you that what they did does not work.

Please learn from the mistakes of others.


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## Rckbttm

DDAY!... YOU MUST LISTEN TO WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE SAYING! I am going through the same thing right now, caught wife several months ago, she kept lieing and covering up only driving it more underground. She had me fooled it was over, lieing to me and our kids until i caught her again. Trust in what they say you are not thinking clearly because you still want it to work...I get that! This is not the same person you married and you have to realize that. I hate to say it but if you REALLY want her back you have to D her and try to move on as painful as that will be. If she is truly remorseful then time will let you see that in her and she will fight with every breath to have you back and only then can you begin to start over. Right now she is playing you like a fiddle my friend. Just my $.02.


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## totallyunexpected

What are the conditions moving forward? So you believe she is remorseful. I'm skeptical, but let's just say she is... Here are some basics - let us know which you are implementing:

1. No contact whatsoever with other man. Absolutely zero. Did you have her write a letter to him ending their relationship? A handwritten letter with no endearing terms... You can find advice on that in this forum. Are you going to have her do this?

2. Transparency - You have access to all her accounts - email, facebook, phones, etc. She does not begrudge your checking on her. Trust has to be re-earned.

3. No more lies of any sort.

4. Exposure - Expose in order to impose consequences and to encourage others to help save your marriage. (And DO EXPOSE TO OTHER MAN'S WIFE - It is the RIGHT thing to do. Would you want her to find out ten years and three affairs later about her cheating husband? Share the information in a calm manner.)

5. STD testing - papers handed over to you.

Those are a few things. Others will chime in. Are you going to do any of those things?

Also, I think it's time you work on YOU. Not just happy pills (though they are often necessary - for me they are!) but also making yourself a person with a life beyond your wife. Try to find a job. Also, get involved in some hobbies, volunteer work, anything to get you OUT OF THE HOUSE. It's good for you and for your wife's perception of you.


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## crazyace

Dear Dday, I think you should mention to her that since he has feeling for OM, and none of this is caused by you... you are leaning towards a divorce and full custody of the kid. Of course you do not want the OM to be a influence on the Kid ... Tell the more you think of what you have been put through by her, the more justifies your decision ... Saying this try to gauge her reaction ... let it go still for some days ... let her think and try to make more amends and see if he gets all restless to understand how she can rewin you. If she just gives up, its easier for you to know that she was never there ... and would have just gone back to he rolder ways once the dust has settled ..


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## southernsurf

Dday said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was away all day yesterday and it was tough not knowing what she was doing. I am not the controlling type an don't want to be that way even now. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to be aware more then ever before what is happening.
> 
> I understand what the overall pattern is with my situation and I guess I do think we are different. It may be a fatal mistake but one I will have to live with. If I am wrong and she goes back to OM or someone else I don't think it will hurt as bad as it does now.


I know exactly how you feel its very hard to walk away even when you get hurt this bad. My feeling is she didn't like or have feelings for the guy she just wanted to test the water on the outside and this loser was easy. Like I said stay in control and only believe what you see, nothing you hear. Protect yourself and heart and do things for you that she will notice - work out, read and study, excell at your job, stay connected to friends and family so she knows your future is strong with or without her. Never appear needy or lost without her. Life always wins and goes on. Keep updates coming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

Let me ask you one question---then I am done with this thread

Take yourself out of your skin----just an impartial observer---and answer this

Your wife is a Kindergarten teacher----If you knew that she as the mother of 3 kids---was cheating on her H., with a Drug addict----probably supporting him with money from her own family---and having sex with her druggie lover, in her OWN home, with her own kids PRESENT----WOULD YOU ALLOW YOUR KIDS TO BE IN HER CLASSROOM FOR ONE MINUTE


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## jnj express

Sorry just one not so little add to the last situation/question----this teacher of very young kids, who are being molded by this teacher----ALSO GETS SO DRUNK SHE PASSES OUT---now I think we have the full picture of this woman who is allowed to mold and sculpt the lives of LITTLE CHILDREN------its a pity the parents of these kids have no idea, what darkness their kids are being allowed into!!!!!!!


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## Dday

jim123 said:


> The light does not go on without strong actions by the BS. You may think you are doing the best way and many on TAM have tried your way. They are now telling you that what they did does not work.
> 
> Please learn from the mistakes of others.


I don't believe that strong actions have to be separation/divorce papers. I believe I took strong actions and made her make a decision. I made a timeline of our text history for the last 9 months of where she was and where I was. We went through every date and I showed her every single one of her lies. I could tell the light went on and she realized how bad of a person she was during this time. She doesn't want to be that way and now that our closest friends know the situation I don't think she would ever do it again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rckbttm

jnj express said:


> Let me ask you one question---then I am done with this thread
> 
> Take yourself out of your skin----just an impartial observer---and answer this
> 
> Your wife is a Kindergarten teacher----If you knew that she as the mother of 3 kids---was cheating on her H., with a Drug addict----probably supporting him with money from her own family---and having sex with her druggie lover, in her OWN home, with her own kids PRESENT----WOULD YOU ALLOW YOUR KIDS TO BE IN HER CLASSROOM FOR ONE MINUTE


:iagree::smthumbup:


----------



## TimesOfChange

Dday said:


> I don't believe that strong actions have to be separation/divorce papers. I believe I took strong actions and made her make a decision. I made a timeline of our text history for the last 9 months of where she was and where I was. We went through every date and I showed her every single one of her lies. I could tell the light went on and she realized how bad of a person she was during this time. She doesn't want to be that way and now that our closest friends know the situation I don't think she would ever do it again
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dday, i really hope for you that your wife has found a way out of the fog, but i highly doubt it!
If not, by what you are doing right now, you will steer your marriage right into the "iceberg". Only 1/7 to 1/8 of an iceberg are visible to the naked eye.....
You think that you are in control of the situation right now, well that might be the case or your wife makes you think that you are.


----------



## jim123

Dday said:


> I don't believe that strong actions have to be separation/divorce papers. I believe I took strong actions and made her make a decision. I made a timeline of our text history for the last 9 months of where she was and where I was. We went through every date and I showed her every single one of her lies. I could tell the light went on and she realized how bad of a person she was during this time. She doesn't want to be that way and now that our closest friends know the situation I don't think she would ever do it again
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She knew where she was on those dates and what she was doing. She loved you so much that she kept on doing it and would still be doing it had she not fell asleep with her phone in her hand.

She is in shock of being caught and that wears off. She will soon realize that you can not leave her and she is in control of the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

> I could tell the light went on and she realized how bad of a person she was during this time.


How do you know the light will stay on ? I'm pretty sure the light turned on plenty of times during her affair but she chose to ignore it. Why would it be different this time ? Maybe some persistence from the OM is all she needs. FWIW, she could still be cheating on you now.


----------



## Dday

jnj express said:


> Sorry just one not so little add to the last situation/question----this teacher of very young kids, who are being molded by this teacher----ALSO GETS SO DRUNK SHE PASSES OUT---now I think we have the full picture of this woman who is allowed to mold and sculpt the lives of LITTLE CHILDREN------its a pity the parents of these kids have no idea, what darkness their kids are being allowed into!!!!!!!


I understand how it looks like that outside looking in. But the truth is she is a great teacher and a great mother. I said it before that she was more tired than drunk the night I found the phone. I used a poor choice of words saying "passed out".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

totallyunexpected said:


> What are the conditions moving forward? So you believe she is remorseful. I'm skeptical, but let's just say she is... Here are some basics - let us know which you are implementing:
> 
> 1. No contact whatsoever with other man. Absolutely zero. Did you have her write a letter to him ending their relationship? A handwritten letter with no endearing terms... You can find advice on that in this forum. Are you going to have her do this?
> 
> 2. Transparency - You have access to all her accounts - email, facebook, phones, etc. She does not begrudge your checking on her. Trust has to be re-earned.
> 
> 3. No more lies of any sort.
> 
> 4. Exposure - Expose in order to impose consequences and to encourage others to help save your marriage. (And DO EXPOSE TO OTHER MAN'S WIFE - It is the RIGHT thing to do. Would you want her to find out ten years and three affairs later about her cheating husband? Share the information in a calm manner.)
> 
> 5. STD testing - papers handed over to you.
> 
> Those are a few things. Others will chime in. Are you going to do any of those things?
> 
> Also, I think it's time you work on YOU. Not just happy pills (though they are often necessary - for me they are!) but also making yourself a person with a life beyond your wife. Try to find a job. Also, get involved in some hobbies, volunteer work, anything to get you OUT OF THE HOUSE. It's good for you and for your wife's perception of you.


All of the above have been implemented. 

I have a good job and probably too many activities. I play a lot of recreational sports and that's where I was all day yesterday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Did you quit dating and romancing your wife? Do you spend 15 hrs per week alone with her?
How many hrs per week sleeping, working, sports activities.
Were you absent from your marriage.
You have already spent half your weekend away from your family? Is that unusual?


----------



## Dday

chapparal said:


> Did you quit dating and romancing your wife? Do you spend 15 hrs per week alone with her?
> How many hrs per week sleeping, working, sports activities.
> Were you absent from your marriage.
> You have already spent half your weekend away from your family? Is that unusual?


Chapparal, thanks for all of your input in this thread. I have started reading one of the books and had my wife read what she should expect. 

Whatever I did I don't think it justifies what she did. However it is the reason this went on for 9 months without me catching her and maybe why she started the A. 

I wouldn't say I was absent from the marriage but I was definitely lazy with it. I especially noticed this when I read our text message history and noticed how business like our conversations were. I didn't mind when she would take the kids to her best friends house for the day, I was happy to have the day alone. We didn't kiss much besides when I wanted to have sex. I mean we would peck and say I love you every time we left or going to sleep but I look back now and see that the intimacy was pretty much gone. 

I'm home most of the time for dinner and most weekends we spend together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## crazyace

Dday said:


> Chapparal, thanks for all of your input in this thread. I have started reading one of the books and had my wife read what she should expect.
> 
> Whatever I did I don't think it justifies what she did. However it is the reason this went on for 9 months without me catching her and maybe why she started the A.
> 
> I wouldn't say I was absent from the marriage but I was definitely lazy with it. I especially noticed this when I read our text message history and noticed how business like our conversations were. I didn't mind when she would take the kids to her best friends house for the day, I was happy to have the day alone. We didn't kiss much besides when I wanted to have sex. I mean we would peck and say I love you every time we left or going to sleep but I look back now and see that the intimacy was pretty much gone.
> 
> I'm home most of the time for dinner and most weekends we spend together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please review all of it that your said ... so you both got comfortable with each other. She had the love for you as a father of her kid but not husband. She dint feel that love or passion for you. She felt that passion with OM. and love for him. Still has 'feelings' read as love for him. And she is still staying int he marriage ... WHY ?? only because : 
1. the OM has no comfort to give her.
2. She might lose custody of the kid cuz u can prove adultry and OM is an addict
3. She will lose a protected life and be on the street
4. Staying with OM will be shortlived as he is good for nothing else other than S** my be. And you are better in all other areas but S** (sorry a bit harsh .. but its what she implies) ..

So now she is playing you ... in some time everything will be forgotten, covered, and she will start over yet again ... this is 100% ... moreover, since also has the confidence that you can never catch her ...


----------



## Dday

crazyace said:


> Please review all of it that your said ... so you both got comfortable with each other. She had the love for you as a father of her kid but not husband. She dint feel that love or passion for you. She felt that passion with OM. and love for him. Still has 'feelings' read as love for him. And she is still staying int he marriage ... WHY ?? only because :
> 1. the OM has no comfort to give her.
> 2. She might lose custody of the kid cuz u can prove adultry and OM is an addict
> 3. She will lose a protected life and be on the street
> 4. Staying with OM will be shortlived as he is good for nothing else other than S** my be. And you are better in all other areas but S** (sorry a bit harsh .. but its what she implies) ..
> 
> So now she is playing you ... in some time everything will be forgotten, covered, and she will start over yet again ... this is 100% ... moreover, since also has the confidence that you can never catch her ...


All of those reasons crossed my mind and I asked her about them. All I can say right now is she is sincere, remorseful and has been truthful about everything since Dday. We are working on this together and will be starting MC next week. She is reading books on how to reconcile and what to expect from me. 

I do appreciate everyone's help in this thread and it has helped me get through the first week. I feel all of the information I was given I used to a degree but maybe not implemented completely. I think this is a good community to help us through this time and I'm thinking of asking her to log in and we can start in the reconciliation thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry

I wouldn't do that for some time. Things are too cloudy, give it time for you two to settle down. You can use this place as a vent for yourself for the time being. Also, your wife was already more skilled than the average cheater. The info on this site could help someone go so deep underground it would take a 24/7 tail to catch them.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Dday said:


> Yes I do love my kids and my wife. I thought a lot about life without her and that is not what I want.
> 
> _My wife has no reason for her actions or how she could of done this to me or our family. She said she never stopped loving me_ and has made it clear to me that she wants to be in this marriage.


Your intentions are good and I praise you for how you hold yourself against the 'attacks' by some of the posters. But do not forget that although sometime overagressive, there is some essential truth is what they bring to bear.

The above shows you not yet dug deep enough: There are reasons for her actions, and she did not love you (enough) in marital sense, while the affair lasted. 

To have a chance at repair you have to know more about this 'no reasons' and her feeling towards you at that time.


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> *All of the above have been implemented. *
> I have a good job and probably too many activities. I play a lot of recreational sports and that's where I was all day yesterday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, not all have been implemented. *No contact has not been implemented.* Your wife still is best friends with AND works with other man's sister, who lives in the same house as other man. So your wife still gets daily updates on other man.

What is your definition of "love"?

How is that definition different than "feelings" (the way your wife used "feelings")?

I understand that feelings could be anger, hate, love - but that is not how the word is used in day-to-day conversation.

You are making a mistake by leaving the door to the other man open.

Look at the first post in this thread, where the cheater says she stays in touch with her friend JUST so she can keep up on what the other man is doing.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/71342-need-advice-other-ws-withdrawal.html


----------



## Chaparral

Yes l'll bet she and he both know how each other's hearts are broken.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, has she shown obvious signs of withdrawal. Because she shoukd be if its over. Even if she wanted to she shouldn't be able to hide the signs of withdrawal.


----------



## southsideirish

chapparal said:


> Btw, has she shown obvious signs of withdrawal. Because she shoukd be if its over. Even if she wanted to she shouldn't be able to hide the signs of withdrawal.


Just curious, but what would be considered obvious signs of withdrawal?


----------



## Chaparral

Moping, crying, depression, sleeping more tha usual etc.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

OP is heading for another false R. But he wont see what is coming in his way because he buried his head deep. 

May be he will understand it next time. I wont blame him we all were like him once but many of us were able to pull out our head from the as$ little quickly.


----------



## HusbandInPain

Dday said:


> I understand how it looks like that outside looking in. But the truth is she is a great teacher and a great mother. I said it before that she was more tired than drunk the night I found the phone. I used a poor choice of words saying "passed out".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wake up. Good mothers do not destroy the family environment. Good mothers provide a stable family environment and a n ethical role model worth following. They also do not expose their children to family traumas or STDs. You are racing towards another d day with your eyes tightly closed and your hands over your ears


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## BeenThere27male

HusbandInPain said:


> Wake up. Good mothers do not destroy the family environment. Good mothers provide a stable family environment and a n ethical role model worth following. They also do not expose their children to family traumas or STDs. You are racing towards another d day with your eyes tightly closed and your hands over your ears


Cut your losses and run as fast as you can (if you can emotionally cut away). You will never trust her again and and you are in a loosing battle with this.


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## southernsurf

any update DDay?


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## Shaggy

Dday said:


> I understand how it looks like that outside looking in. But the truth is she is a great teacher and a great mother. I said it before that she was more tired than drunk the night I found the phone. I used a poor choice of words saying "passed out".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh man are you on the fast path to rugsweeping. 

Your wife has not been a great teacher or great mom for at least the last 8 months.

She's been using her kids as cover to go over to her druggie bf and have sex with him.

She's been exposing your kids to a looser druggie and his lifestyle and attitudes.

She's been putting her job and her family as a far distant priority so she could get laid.

How is any of that being a great anything?

Please stop trying to act like this is all nothing more than a tiny oops. She had a long term physical affair with a junkie. She was at his beck and call with a burner phone. If he had any means to support her, she would be dumping you by now and he'd be living in your bed in your house.

If you sugarcoat this, she will realize she can do it again and again and you will just keep taking her back. That's the lesson you are currently teacher her with this attitude.

For the sake of your marriage and kids start standing up and hold her firmly accountable. 

People only value what they earn. Right now you are giving her a free pass on the very horrible nasty cheating she chose to do. She is not going to value this chance if she doesn't have to earn it.


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## jnj express

Not to jump on you anymore than you already have been---but, open your eyes, and think with the brain of a mature adult, if her school district knew she was even cavorting with a drug addict, such as her sleeping in his bed---when she has a home of her own to go to, and exposing her kids to being in the same house with that drug addict, and even worse inviting that addict into your home with your kids present, and you the H, not present----she would be gone, based on the MORALS clause in her teaching contract

Here in Calif, a school district can fire a teacher who gets 2 DUI, based on the morals clause, and a school district WILL fire a teacher who gets a 3rd DUI

You tell me which is worse---DUI's are bad---but cavoring with a drug addict, and exposing your kids to him, w/out your H, there to defend those kids----and on top of that possible exposure to your kids, of walking in on her spreading her legs for this addict, in your own home, with you the H gone----you tell me which is worse

If the school district, knew those facts---your wife WOULD BE WITHOUT A JOB, and the state would REVOKE HER CREDENTIAL


----------



## Dday

jnj express said:


> Not to jump on you anymore than you already have been---but, open your eyes, and think with the brain of a mature adult, if her school district knew she was even cavorting with a drug addict, such as her sleeping in his bed---when she has a home of her own to go to, and exposing her kids to being in the same house with that drug addict, and even worse inviting that addict into your home with your kids present, and you the H, not present----she would be gone, based on the MORALS clause in her teaching contract
> 
> Here in Calif, a school district can fire a teacher who gets 2 DUI, based on the morals clause, and a school district WILL fire a teacher who gets a 3rd DUI
> 
> You tell me which is worse---DUI's are bad---but cavoring with a drug addict, and exposing your kids to him, w/out your H, there to defend those kids----and on top of that possible exposure to your kids, of walking in on her spreading her legs for this addict, in your own home, with you the H gone----you tell me which is worse
> 
> If the school district, knew those facts---your wife WOULD BE WITHOUT A JOB, and the state would REVOKE HER CREDENTIAL


Ok I'll address the drug thing one last time and give an update. 

Remember he is in recovery, has been for 2 years. He gets methadone from the state as it is a state run program. When I brought up he was a drug addict, I was trying to show what kind of scum he is and he has nothing to offer my wife financially or long term. The talk about her being a bad teacher or bad mother is absolutely wrong and needs to stop. You are all just making generalizations and assumptions about this and you are dead wrong. I don't know how else to explain it but you have to trust me and move on. Pain medicine abuse is becoming an epidemic in the US and is much more common than you all probably realize. 

As for an update it has been just about 2.5 weeks since Dday. As i knew i was going to try to do from the beginning i am trying to go the reconciliation route. I am not trying to nice my way through it or rug sweep it as many of you say. We are looking at every aspect of the affair and why it happened. It is obvious she has a character flaw that allowed this to happen and we will be going to therapy to figure out if that is fixable. After seeing the pain this has caused and knowing that she is a good person I am confident she won't do this again. I know what kind of good person would do something like this in the first place?

She had their first long conversation with the friend since this has happened yesterday. Her friend will not bring up his name or anything in conversation and she is definitely rug sweeping but I can't blame her for that. They talked about her friends son's birthday party coming up and how she was telling her brother that he can't come since my kids will be invited. My wife also admitted to her Exactly how physical it got and about the other phone. She knew about the phone since I mailed it back to the house in about 100 pieces, But she never wanted to bring that up with my wife. I think she can be trusted to help me enforce the NC with her brother. 

As for me, I am just now being able to concentrate on work and other activities. I am ready to move on and start healing and building our relationship of whatever is left behind. I will never forget what happened but I have to stop beating her and myself up about it. It has been pretty much 24/7 since Dday and it is taking a toll on both of us. I never blamed myself for what she did but I do take my part of the blame for how our relationship was. I am going to change what i can and I believe that will make us happier than we have been in a long time. I do wish that she would do some more of the heavy lifting but I think that will start after I stop asking the same questions and let us move on to the next stage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Just a point of clarification. Methadone is just a legal drug for addicts. A good friend of mine died from it around 1975. He bought it illegally from someone in a methadone program. If the boyfriend is regularly taking methadone , he is still a drug addict. I also know of two people in the methadone program that get dosed every morning.

I think calling him in recovery a huge fallacy. It would be the same as an alcholic switching from gin to vodka and saying he wasn't a drunk. Methadone is still dope and used to get high.

Have you looked up methadone abuse?

By the way, the two painters I know also use other drugs.


----------



## BK23

Dday,

I have been following your story, and I'm so sorry you're going through this. I'm glad to hear that you are making a go of it with R. Are you two in counselling yet?

I know it's tough (or nearly impossible) but I think for R to really take root and be successful, you need this scumbag's sister out of the picture as well. Yes, she and your wife work together, but that should be as far as their association goes. Every time she talks to this woman, she is vicariously in touch with the POSOM. 

Good luck.


----------



## Decorum

Dday,
I support your efforts to reconcile. We are not in your shoes.

Your wifes heaving lifting will be in proportion to her remorsefulness and character, (i.e. if she is lazy, selfish, etc, it will not go well.).

You will be able to judge that as you proceed if that is the way you want to do it.

Rugsweeping and minimizing are always a concern, usually the full weight of remorse comes in the reconcilation process anyway. You will be able to tell.

I wish you well.



ETA: I do think remaining friends with the posom sister will be a reminder of posom and make it harder for your wife to get over him. You can monitor that as you go if she is honest with you about her struggles for him.

Many ws have a hard time with getting over the om even though they want to. For her sake at some point , if you see its is a problem (and she is honest), you may have to address it again for her own good.

Take care!


----------



## LongWalk

Curious about one thing. Did you ever ask your wife what she got out of his companionship. I assume that after someone shoots up or ingests or snorts, they drift out for awhile. Does she enjoy seeing him drifting along? Do they have conversation? Usually people who are sober don't enjoy hanging out with people who are drinking. I don't see the healthy attraction. Did she just enjoy making love with someone she pitied?

Mind you there have been great writers and artists who have used opiate. But this isn't really Lou Reed or Edgar Allan Poe, we're talking about, is it?


----------



## Acabado

You are very early on, anger phase will come very soon. I understand your wishes to limit the consequences. Still...

OM's sister must go. It's a must. Noone of you will ever move on with this constant reminder/trigger, possible window to OM, affair time. 
Innocent children will be afected by this. Her fault. She screwed up that possible friendship by screwing her bro. Friend can also blame her and her bro for this.
Half measures won't work. Everything related to "it" must be erased from you lives.


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Curious about one thing. Did you ever ask your wife what she got out of his companionship. I assume that after someone shoots up or ingests or snorts, they drift out for awhile. Does she enjoy seeing him drifting along? Do they have conversation? Usually people who are sober don't enjoy hanging out with people who are drinking. I don't see the healthy attraction. Did she just enjoy making love with someone she pitied?
> 
> Mind you there have been great writers and artists who have used opiate. But this isn't really Lou Reed or Edgar Allan Poe, we're talking about, is it?


She had strong feelings for him. To her it wasn't about the sex it was the conversations, showing her attention and just making herself feel good. Once she had he connection the sex came and that felt better too. It became everything I was doing was wrong and everything he did was great. 

His dosage is so low I don't think you would be able to tell he was high. It is more to keep the withdrawal symptoms away. Plus he would take the dosage in the morning and she wouldn't see him until late night usually after she had been drinking.


----------



## Dday

Acabado said:


> You are very early on, anger phase will come very soon. I understand your wishes to limit the consequences. Still...
> 
> OM's sister must go. It's a must. Noone of you will ever move on with this constant reminder/trigger, possible window to OM, affair time.
> Innocent children will be afected by this. Her fault. She screwed up that possible friendship by screwing her bro. Friend can also blame her and her bro for this.
> Half measures won't work. Everything related to "it" must be erased from you lives.


I am waiting on my conversation with the OM's sister. I think she can be trusted and I can have her as another set of eyes on them. I did talk to my wife about triggers for both of us when we see her and I feel that is going to be the most difficult part about the whole situation. She really wasn't in on what happened and hasn't talked to her brother much since. I understand what you are saying and I don't totally disagree, I will just wait to see how this plays out.


----------



## BK23

Best of luck Dday. From what I have seen, with this type of affair--involving a heavy emotional component--remaining in touch with someone that is close to the POSOM--like a sister--will provided way too much of a temptation for your WW. Even if she doesn't "relapse" (excuse the pun) with this guy, the contact with his sister will be a constant reminder that will make it harder for her to emotionally disengage and start being a decent wife and mother again.


----------



## Dday

BK23 said:


> Best of luck Dday. From what I have seen, with this type of affair--involving a heavy emotional component--remaining in touch with someone that is close to the POSOM--like a sister--will provided way too much of a temptation for your WW. Even if she doesn't "relapse" (excuse the pun) with this guy, the contact with his sister will be a constant reminder that will make it harder for her to emotionally disengage and start being a decent wife and mother again.


I see your point and this is a question I plan on asking at MC


----------



## BK23

I think this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/71342-need-advice-other-ws-withdrawal.html

may provide some insight. It's a WW that still--unbelievably--talks with the OM's wife having trouble moving forward...


----------



## Shaggy

Dday,

If you think your asking her questions is what is preventing you two healing, then my friend you are thinking down a very bad path that very much does lead to rugsweeping.

You very much need to realize that this bang out in the open is essential for both dealing with it and healing. It was secrecy and lies that enabled the affair, not openness and truth.

Now here is the painful part for you to deal with.

You wife may not be having sex with him, BUT she still wants to. She is very very far from choosing to return to bring your wife. 

The problem is that you have an incredibly high chance of finding that she goes back to him in the future, especially since she appears to have a drinking problem. How it will go down, is that she will be feeling sorry for herself, she'll have a couple of drinks, and she'll be reaching out to him. Shortly after that they will once again she having sex.

Oh, she may be good for a while, a week or two, maybe a month. But given that she felt such an emotional connection to him, and has placed herself at his beck and call for anytime he needed sone sex, she will very likely find herself going back for more.

I strongly suggest as part of trying to R, that once consequence is she give up drinking completely. Not another drop.

That will help you immensely,

I want you to succeed here, but you are choosing to white wash over things, very important things.

I also find it chocking how much you are defending this OM and his drug use. Why do you have such a soft spot for an addicted druggie who was using your wife for frequent booty calls to the point that she had a dedicated phone so he could beckon her to cone to him? This guy is scum , this guy very possibly has cost you your marriage ,wife, and family.


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> Dday,
> 
> If you think your asking her questions is what is preventing you two healing, then my friend you are thinking down a very bad path that very much does lead to rugsweeping.
> 
> You very much need to realize that this bang out in the open is essential for both dealing with it and healing. It was secrecy and lies that enabled the affair, not openness and truth.
> 
> Now here is the painful part for you to deal with.
> 
> You wife may not be having sex with him, BUT she still wants to. She is very very far from choosing to return to bring your wife.
> 
> The problem is that you have an incredibly high chance of finding that she goes back to him in the future, especially since she appears to have a drinking problem. How it will go down, is that she will be feeling sorry for herself, she'll have a couple of drinks, and she'll be reaching out to him. Shortly after that they will once again she having sex.
> 
> Oh, she may be good for a while, a week or two, maybe a month. But given that she felt such an emotional connection to him, and has placed herself at his beck and call for anytime he needed sone sex, she will very likely find herself going back for more.
> 
> I strongly suggest as part of trying to R, that once consequence is she give up drinking completely. Not another drop.
> 
> That will help you immensely,
> 
> I want you to succeed here, but you are choosing to white wash over things, very important things.
> 
> I also find it chocking how much you are defending this OM and his drug use. Why do you have such a soft spot for an addicted druggie who was using your wife for frequent booty calls to the point that she had a dedicated phone so he could beckon her to cone to him? This guy is scum , this guy very possibly has cost you your marriage ,wife, and family.


I asked every question and got every answer. I am now asking the same questions or making comments that are totally against my character. Like when were home last weekend I would just ask, I wonder what kind of lies you would of been telling me tonight so you could sleep at your friends house? It make comments when we were out with friends and she went to the ladies room and she asked me to watch her drink I made a comment how she doesn't need roofies to sleep around. 

I have asked her if she is missing him or thinking about him and her answer was no. She hasn't lied about anything else with him so I believe for now and I agree she may down the line. 

I understand the emotional connection is my biggest worry. All I can say is I think we are in a good spot right now to move forward and I will take it one day at a time. I really don't see her cheating again but I thought that before. I know that if it does happen again that would be it and I will find out about much faster. 

As for defending the OM, Im not. He is an addict, but not an addict that is shooting needles and robbing stores to get his fix. I unfortunately have seen some good people get addicted to opiates and it is a terrible addiction. I have no good feelings towards him at all and I'm afraid of what I may do if we cross paths at some point. I just try to make it clear my wife was not apart of his drug use or she was banging a known felon that is wanted in 6 states.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BK23

I say, send OM a nice big bottle of Oxycontin and cross your fingers for an OD.


----------



## crazyace

are you and your wife physically connecting in any form right now ?


----------



## Chaparral

Most addicts don't rob and pillage. Lol . They also are not good people. Their limbic brain changes completely. It changes the decisions they mske. Like banging a friend's wife. He may have used to be a good person. Now he is a self absorbed selfish drug addict. Take away his current drug and see what he would do for more. He got high, your wife got drunk, you have no idea what really happened.


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## warlock07

her friend might want her brother and your W together. Maybe not now, probably down the line when her addict brother isn't able to move on. 

The silence might also mean that she knew or atleast suspected. Look, she isn't devastated that her friend and brother betrayed her. She isn't angry at you wife.


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## Dday

crazyace said:


> are you and your wife physically connecting in any form right now ?


Yes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

warlock07 said:


> her friend might want her brother and your W together. Maybe not now, probably down the line when her addict brother isn't able to move on.
> 
> The silence might also mean that she knew or atleast suspected. Look, she isn't devastated that her friend and brother betrayed her. She isn't angry at you wife.


Yes be afraid of this especially if the druggie starts acting out because he can't have your wife.


----------



## NewM

So your wife is going to go again to their house without you?


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## Acabado

NewM said:


> So your wife is going to go again to their house without you?


This.
Or.., are you going with her to babysit? How are you going to feel seeing that couch?

See? OM, OM's sister, children. All must go. Forever. It's a matter of priorities.


----------



## Decorum

Dday said:


> She had strong feelings for him. To her it wasn't about the sex it was the conversations, showing her attention and just making herself feel good. Once she had he connection the sex came and that felt better too. It became everything I was doing was wrong and everything he did was great.
> 
> His dosage is so low I don't think you would be able to tell he was high. It is more to keep the withdrawal symptoms away. Plus he would take the dosage in the morning and she wouldn't see him until late night usually after she had been drinking.


I am so sorry. This is worse than I though. So she deeply connected with him emotionally, disconnected with you and highlighted all your faults to him.

That is serious betrayal. I was thinking it was more about the sex.

This is going to ba a long haul. Thats a tough road to hoe. 

I wish you well.

Take care!


----------



## Dday

NewM said:


> So your wife is going to go again to their house without you?


No she is not going to their house. That js completely off limits. The bday party is at a moon bounce place or something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Decorum said:


> I am so sorry. This is worse than I though. So she deeply connected with him emotionally, disconnected with you and highlighted all your faults to him.
> 
> That is serious betrayal. I was thinking it was more about the sex.
> 
> This is going to ba a long haul. Thats a tough road to hoe.
> 
> I wish you well.
> 
> Take care!


That's one of the craziest things, I never felt disconnected or the marriage was all that bad. Looking back I can see clearly now (that's a song isn't it?) that we had some major issues. She was living a double life and she was pretty damn good at it. Over the 9 months it went on I believe there were 12 times she slept at her friends house and there were about 5 times I was away that he was over. So it wasn't like they were swing each other multiple times per week, it wasn't about sex it was about the connection, hence the 31,000 text messages between them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Dday said:


> That's one of the craziest things, I never felt disconnected or the marriage was all that bad. Looking back I can see clearly now (that's a song isn't it?) that we had some major issues. She was living a double life and she was pretty damn good at it. Over the 9 months it went on I believe there were 12 times she slept at her friends house and there were about 5 times I was away that he was over. So it wasn't like they were swing each other multiple times per week, it wasn't about sex it was about the connection, hence the 31,000 text messages between them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Answer this.

During the affair what's the ratio of her::him sex and her::you sex.?


----------



## BK23

Dday said:


> That's one of the craziest things, I never felt disconnected or the marriage was all that bad. Looking back I can see clearly now (that's a song isn't it?) that we had some major issues. She was living a double life and she was pretty damn good at it. Over the 9 months it went on I believe there were 12 times she slept at her friends house and there were about 5 times I was away that he was over. So it wasn't like they were swing each other multiple times per week, it wasn't about sex it was about the connection, hence the 31,000 text messages between them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


eeek. You really need to be on alert, man. Your wife may be saying she isn't thinking of the other guy, but humans can't just turn that kind of attachment off like a switch. She is 100% not over this, and you need to make sure she is candid with you about where she's at--its painful, but that's the kind of transparency you need if this is going to work. 

I know I sound like a broken record, but having this dude's sister in the picture is going to, at the very least, make your R much more complicated, and, most likely, will lead to further contact between your wife and this jerk.


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> She had strong feelings for him. To her it wasn't about the sex it was the conversations, showing her attention and just making herself feel good. Once she had he connection the sex came and that felt better too. It became everything I was doing was wrong and everything he did was great.
> 
> *His dosage is so low I don't think you would be able to tell he was high. *It is more to keep the withdrawal symptoms away. Plus he would take the dosage in the morning and *she wouldn't see him until late night usually after she had been drinking*.


*About drug addicts who are in methadone programs for two straight years*: Many of us of a certain age have encountered many people over the years who have been addicted and re-habbed. No one is in rehab for two straight years unless they have relapsed. Again, many of us of a certain age who have encountered this also know that the addict does not stick to one drug. Your belief that this guy religiously gets up every morning and takes his small dose of "medicine" and that dose alone with no other drugs for two straight years is way, way off from my experiences. He is unemployed, living with mommy, and still in the methadone program for a reason, and it ain't because he has been following their rehab program to the letter for two straight years.

*About your wife being a good teacher*: She may be good, but I would NEVER trust her with my kids if I knew what she was all about after hours. I am a parent and if I knew my kindergarten-age son was being taught by a woman who drinks many nights and who was cheating on her husband with a guy who lived with his mommy and was in a methadone program for two years, I would go to the school administration and either that teacher would be removed or my son would be going to a different school. Probably the only kids left in the class would be those whose parents have no viable alternative. Like it or not, appearances matter, parents want to know their children are being taken care of by people who have good judgement.

*About your wife staying in touch with friend, who works with her, and lives with other man, her brother, and is rugsweeping and not mentioning other man's name*: Get real. It's only been a week and a half. How do you know that your wife's friend didn't mention other man, or that she told other man he couldn't come to the kids' party? How did you know other man was going to be at the ballgame the other night? Am I wrong that anything you know is coming from your wife? I'm not posting here because I'm some bitter divorced guy, I've been down your path and I've come through the other side, I've got a lot of life experience, both my own and others I have known. Maintaining contact with the sister of the man who your wife cheated with is what my kids would refer to as an "Epic Fail."


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> Answer this.
> 
> During the affair what's the ratio of her::him sex and her::you sex.?


That's tough to answer for sure. We were having sex anywhere from 1-3 times a week. I believe with the information I got they were around 2-3 per month. I know march was atleast 5 times as I was gone for 3 nights and he was over all three nights and she had 2 "sleepovers". It's not like it makes it any better that she might of been with me more because thinking back every time was initiated by me and she did it just to shut me up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Dday said:


> That's tough to answer for sure. We were having sex anywhere from 1-3 times a week. I believe with the information I got they were around 2-3 per month. I know march was atleast 5 times as I was gone for 3 nights and he was over all three nights and she had 2 "sleepovers". It's not like it makes it any better that she might of been with me more because thinking back every time was initiated by me and she did it just to shut me up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To make it worse affair sex is never ever let's just get this over quickly because it is late sex. It is lots of effort sex with nothing off limits. 

So basically do the math as 1 of their romps == 4 of yours,


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> *About drug addicts who are in methadone programs for two straight years*: Many of us of a certain age have encountered many people over the years who have been addicted and re-habbed. No one is in rehab for two straight years unless they have relapsed. Again, many of us of a certain age who have encountered this also know that the addict does not stick to one drug. Your belief that this guy religiously gets up every morning and takes his small dose of "medicine" and that dose alone with no other drugs for two straight years is way, way off from my experiences. He is unemployed, living with mommy, and still in the methadone program for a reason, and it ain't because he has been following their rehab program to the letter for two straight years.
> 
> *About your wife being a good teacher*: She may be good, but I would NEVER trust her with my kids if I knew what she was all about after hours. I am a parent and if I knew my kindergarten-age son was being taught by a woman who drinks many nights and who was cheating on her husband with a guy who lived with his mommy and was in a methadone program for two years, I would go to the school administration and either that teacher would be removed or my son would be going to a different school. Probably the only kids left in the class would be those whose parents have no viable alternative. Like it or not, appearances matter, parents want to know their children are being taken care of by people who have good judgement.
> 
> *About your wife staying in touch with friend, who works with her, and lives with other man, her brother, and is rugsweeping and not mentioning other man's name*: Get real. It's only been a week and a half. How do you know that your wife's friend didn't mention other man, or that she told other man he couldn't come to the kids' party? How did you know other man was going to be at the ballgame the other night? Am I wrong that anything you know is coming from your wife? I'm not posting here because I'm some bitter divorced guy, I've been down your path and I've come through the other side, I've got a lot of life experience, both my own and others I have known. Maintaining contact with the sister of the man who your wife cheated with is what my kids would refer to as an "Epic Fail."


You make a lot of good points that are tough to argue, so I won't. I do have to trust my gut feeling on these issues and that is what I'm doing. You are right that I am getting all of my information from my wife and I do believe she is being truthful and sincere. All I can really say there is a reason why people have personal lives that are private, and what they do dies not have to affect their professional careers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> To make it worse affair sex is never ever let's just get this over quickly because it is late sex. It is lots of effort sex with nothing off limits.
> 
> So basically do the math as 1 of their romps == 4 of yours,


Yea I got that out of her. I would even say they don't compare at all. Whatever we did during the affair was boring and meaningless to her. What she had with him was exciting and building a bond. She said and admitted that she was living a fictional life with him, no problems like money, kids, or house chores. 

When she was over there she was single and easy going. When she gets home she is married mother of 3 with all kinds of messes to clean up and stressed out with daily routines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Dday said:


> Yea I got that out of her. I would even say they don't compare at all. Whatever we did during the affair was boring and meaningless to her. What she had with him was exciting and building a bond. She said and admitted that she was living a fictional life with him, no problems like money, kids, or house chores.
> 
> When she was over there she was single and easy going. When she gets home she is married mother of 3 with all kinds of messes to clean up and stressed out with daily routines.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't accept that.

She wants to be your wife? She puts the energy and passion into it.

Don't buy the I'm tired and busy lies. She wasn't tired or too busy for him,

Accept nothing less than serious effort on her part, be blunt and tell her so, she will value you much more if she works to keep you.

Each time you have sex,the moment you find her slacking or just going through the motions, stop. Pull out, and ask her "are you just going through the motions here? Do you not feel the passion you did with him?if so let me know and I'll drop you off over there for good. I'm worth ten times the effort you gave him."


----------



## jim123

Dday said:


> Yea I got that out of her. I would even say they don't compare at all. Whatever we did during the affair was boring and meaningless to her. What she had with him was exciting and building a bond. She said and admitted that she was living a fictional life with him, no problems like money, kids, or house chores.
> 
> When she was over there she was single and easy going. When she gets home she is married mother of 3 with all kinds of messes to clean up and stressed out with daily routines.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And now yo mean something and you are exciting because she is caught? Things do not change like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD

So I read the entire thread...at least the OP posts

So, you are trusting your ex cheating wife to tell you the truth

You are letting her stay in contact with the BF who loves you and your marriage more than her brother

You are allowing your wife to stay in contact with the BFs KIDS, who would be pleased as punch to pass along any messages from Uncle Rehab for a sucker to the wife

You refuse to keep any track of her whereabouts or activities because that would be'controlling' andyou need to trust...someone...who...was...um

Probably aren't' searching for any new burner phone either. 

Well...it seems you have it all wrapped up.

Good luck.


----------



## Dday

jim123 said:


> And now yo mean something and you are exciting because she is caught? Things do not change like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know it's not that easy, but it was meaningful and better than what we have had in a long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

Dday said:


> I know it's not that easy, but it was meaningful and better than what we have had in a long time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For who? You need time to get your self repect back. She is in full control. She was acting before why not now.

She has no where to go right now and om is not an option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

JCD said:


> So I read the entire thread...at least the OP posts
> 
> So, you are trusting your ex cheating wife to tell you the truth
> 
> You are letting her stay in contact with the BF who loves you and your marriage more than her brother
> 
> You are allowing your wife to stay in contact with the BFs KIDS, who would be pleased as punch to pass along any messages from Uncle Rehab for a sucker to the wife
> 
> You refuse to keep any track of her whereabouts or activities because that would be'controlling' andyou need to trust...someone...who...was...um
> 
> Probably aren't' searching for any new burner phone either.
> 
> Well...it seems you have it all wrapped up.
> 
> Good luck.


I feel she is telling the truth. I am skeptical and question almost everything. 

The BF is a difficult situation and I'm not sure how that will play out. I really think she would be on our side here but I am afraid of the triggers and the likelihood that she could see him again. By chance or planned. 

The BF kid is 5 years old and my kids are 5-4-2. They are too young to know what is going on. Plus any get together a I will be involved and most likely be at my house. 

I know where she is at all times. I pretty much always have, we have iPhones and I use the find my iPhone app and she has been texting me often when she leaves work or the gym. 

I think it's too early but I have looked for another phone. I will look again. 

I don't think I have it all wrapped up, I like the feedback I get here. I take everything seriously and have used a lot of the information to help me through this. I just made my decision to reconcile and I am working towards that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

So they had sex in your house, in your bed?
With your kids in another room;

Wow I missed that. That will be a trigger for you.

I just dont know what to say, I dont want to seem like I am piling on.

Will you be getting new stuff?

Ironic isnt it, she commit adultery in your home and she gets new furniture out of it.

It is a messed up situation when this happenes I hope you can get through it.

She owes you a lot, you should be asking her "how are you going to make this up to me."

I just have a feeling, like in so many other cases, if om had a job and a place of his own she would be gone.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum

It does seem like she is being honest about her affair.
That is good. If she can only stay NC and move on, only time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Dday said:


> She had strong feelings for him. To her it wasn't about the sex it was the conversations, showing her attention and just making herself feel good. Once she had he connection the sex came and that felt better too. It became everything I was doing was wrong and everything he did was great.
> 
> His dosage is so low I don't think you would be able to tell he was high. It is more to keep the withdrawal symptoms away. Plus he would take the dosage in the morning and she wouldn't see him until late night usually after she had been drinking.


At least you are clear thinking and analyzing well, my compliment.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Dday, people are too black and white about this case, where otherwise I can see the OP needs to be brought to reality, I get you are not the regular case.

But she could be, although it does not look like to you, so keep an eye on her remorse, is it truely lived through, is she mouring about her lost love with OM, etc. It could be gaslighting, maybe even to herself, in a way to unconscious rugsweep for everybody's good.


----------



## jnj express

Dday---why would you think your wife's BF, is gonna throw over her own flesh and blood bro. to help you

Believe me this BF---no matter what she said---knew to some extent what had to be going on----your wife slept over there 12 times---why was that, considering she had a nice home of her own to come back to----are you gonna tell us she was to drunk to drive home----sure that goes right along with the great teacher bit---the teacher who drinks so much she passes out----and with all the destruction the alcohol has brought to your life---according to one of your recent posts----SHE IS STILL DRINKING----why is that----goes right back to the great teacher bit---right??????

Good teachers do not come to school with alcohol in them----your wife does---and don't tell me she doesn't---cuz it takes alcohol a certain amount of time to leave the system, and unless your wife is a very large woman, she still has alcohol in her system, when SHE IS TEACHING 5 Year old kids----great teacher----I am sorry but you are way out of line!!!!!!!


----------



## LongWalk

Dday, all I can figure is that even though you have taken a hard blow, you believe that you are the strongest and healthiest person in this quartet of WW, WWBF and OM. Maybe that is true. How many of these three can you lead to safety? Because let's face it your wife is in terrible danger. If you D, she could end up living with him. Her drinking could get worse and she could well end up losing her job.

You need to give her a safe environment. Her best friend is not contributing to your wife's best interests. Your wife even feels a commitment to that friendship. When she has been sleeping with her brother, she knew it was harming you. What did she think about the consequences to her friendship?

Oh, yea, what does BF's husband think about all of this?

In all likelihood, she felt her BF would accept and maybe even welcome the relationship. If she dumped you and shacked up with him, then her SIL and best friend become the same person. For her that might a goal or at least not a negative outcome. She may even feel that your wife can save her brother.

Given that the two women are so close, it is impossible that she did not know what was going on. In fact, the close relationship of your wife and her BF is getting in the way of your relationship.

You may not feel that you have the strength to break the bond between these two women at this point. Most of the posters here believe that you ought to demand it. Have you met the BF on her own for a serious discussion? Say that you want advice from her on how to go forward. Ask her questions, implying that you respect her POV, and listen carefully to what she says. If she is very guarded and doesn't point out any problems with the situation, then she is being dishonest and is no ally of your marriage.

If she is honest, she will supply you with new information that should lead you be take more forceful action.


----------



## Decorum

Dday,
You are handeling yourself well on this forum keep that up. Some op 's have a meltdown, from answering the same questions or addressing ths same issues, that's counterproductive, so good for you.

There are some time tested things that you are passing by, and maybe rightly so, at least you have heard about them here and you know the range of actions that are reasonable.

Your wife seems to confide in you fairly well, has that been typical for your marriage?

Has anyone recomended the book The 5 love languages yet? It would be a good book for the two of you to read and talk about.

also 

NOT "Just Friends": Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal by S. Glass. Its a classic here. (Actually both are)

I know you want the relationship to be better than it was, it will be harder and easier now (assuming your wife is remorseful and sticks with it), harder because of the damage done by her infidelity, easier because you both (I hope) want to save it, and neither of you just wants staus quo.

Make no mistake reconcilation will be one of the hardest long term things you have ever done.

Dday,
My wife and I have 4 kids the youngest just turned 18, I would do anything (morally right) to help them, I consider their well being and future more important than my own, you have chosen the same path I would in your situation, just keep your eyes open and you expectations high!!!

Take care!


----------



## itskaren

Dday said:


> I can't believe I'm here like many of you. I have been with my wife for 15 years married for 7.5. We have 3 kids 5-4-2 and are both 31. We have had a solid relationship until the last year and a half or so.
> 
> We have talked about how things have gotten routine and not exciting but I just shrugged it off that we have been together for so long. Just about all of the intimate times were initiated by me but we would have sex 1-3 times a week which I was ok with. I saw plenty of signs that she was having an affair but I never thought she was capable of doing this. She is a great mother and just overall good person.
> 
> Well, I totally underestimated her and D-day was on Good Friday. We were having drinks this Friday with another couple and me and the other husband ran out for more beer. We ended up having 2 drinks at the bar and headed back with the 12 pack. We got home and other wife was passed out on the couch. I go upstairs and find my wife passed out on the bed, holding a cell phone I have never seen. It was one of those cheap prepaid phones from Walmart. I woke her up and after a struggle I left with the phone and drove to an empty parking lot with it.
> 
> She initially downplayed what happened but eventually admitted to a 9 month affair. I feel so stupid as I have been right so many times and questioned her about the other guy.
> 
> Now the other guy is my wife's best friends brother, she was over there all of the time with the kids for play dates and slept over when they went out so she didn't have to drive home. I was weary about all of this and it became more frequent over the last couple of months.
> 
> There are a ton more details as you can imagine but I just can't see spending the rest of my life without her. She already ended it with other guy and we want to make this work. How do you trust again? When will the pain stop?




Sorry you're here. I don't think the pain will stop. It hasn't for me. 6 months ago since D Day. My husband calls me every day, is remorseful etc. I am just not the same person now. The shock was so great that I will never get over it. 

Happy just to work as much as I can and pretend that things are ok. When the youngest has left home I will be out of the door as fast as I can. Good luck.


----------



## warlock07

Switch yourself into your wife's position and imagine yourself cheating on her for several months, using a burner phone, constantly fighting over your relationship with a female friends of yours(who you are cheating with) and accusing her of insecurity and jealousy during the whole thing. What exactoy would you need to feel about your wife to do this to her ? Think about it,

While reconciling you need to realize that she detached quite a bit from you during this whole thing and doing this again when the guilt washes away again or during a hard time during the marriage will be no big deal for her.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dday said:


> No she is not going to their house. That js completely off limits. *The bday party is at a moon bounce place or something.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Dday said:


> I feel she is telling the truth. I am skeptical and question almost everything.
> 
> The BF is a difficult situation and I'm not sure how that will play out. I really think she would be on our side here but I am afraid of the triggers and the likelihood that she could see him again. By chance or planned.
> 
> The BF kid is 5 years old and my kids are 5-4-2. They are too young to know what is going on. Plus any get together a I will be involved and most likely be at my house.
> 
> *I know where she is at all times.* I pretty much always have, we have iPhones and I use the find my iPhone app and she has been texting me often when she leaves work or the gym.
> 
> I think it's too early but I have looked for another phone. I will look again.
> 
> I don't think I have it all wrapped up, I like the feedback I get here. I take everything seriously and have used a lot of the information to help me through this. I just made my decision to reconcile and I am working towards that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dday,

The bolded statements above don't compute. Do you know exactly where the birthday party is taking place? Do you know for certain that the OM won't be there or that your WW won't sneak off to see him? Have you considered going along with her or showing up at some point to make sure all is on the up and up? Or are you just going to take her word for it that nothing happened?

This just seems to me like another example of your being too trusting, too early.

Maybe I'm missing something here but, for a guy whose WW has really messed up his marriage and life, you seem way too complacent.


----------



## Dday

Decorum said:


> So they had sex in your house, in your bed?
> With your kids in another room;
> 
> Wow I missed that. That will be a trigger for you.
> 
> I just dont know what to say, I dont want to seem like I am piling on.
> 
> Will you be getting new stuff?
> 
> Ironic isnt it, she commit adultery in your home and she gets new furniture out of it.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All of the activity at my house was in the finished basement on the couch. There is an outside entrance and easy to sneak in and out.


----------



## Dday

jnj express said:


> Dday---why would you think your wife's BF, is gonna throw over her own flesh and blood bro. to help you
> 
> Believe me this BF---no matter what she said---knew to some extent what had to be going on----your wife slept over there 12 times---why was that, considering she had a nice home of her own to come back to----are you gonna tell us she was to drunk to drive home----sure that goes right along with the great teacher bit---the teacher who drinks so much she passes out----and with all the destruction the alcohol has brought to your life---according to one of your recent posts----SHE IS STILL DRINKING----why is that----goes right back to the great teacher bit---right??????
> 
> Good teachers do not come to school with alcohol in them----your wife does---and don't tell me she doesn't---cuz it takes alcohol a certain amount of time to leave the system, and unless your wife is a very large woman, she still has alcohol in her system, when SHE IS TEACHING 5 Year old kids----great teacher----I am sorry but you are way out of line!!!!!!!


I'm not sure what the BF would do. I haven't talked to her myself yet but I will and get a sense then. 

My wife isn't drinking and sleeping out on school nights. This is one of the dumb assumptions some of you are making. She was staying at her friends house because I do no want her to drink and drive. All of the sleepovers would be on the weekends or when there was no school the next day.


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Dday, all I can figure is that even though you have taken a hard blow, you believe that you are the strongest and healthiest person in this quartet of WW, WWBF and OM. Maybe that is true. How many of these three can you lead to safety? Because let's face it your wife is in terrible danger. If you D, she could end up living with him. Her drinking could get worse and she could well end up losing her job.
> 
> You need to give her a safe environment. Her best friend is not contributing to your wife's best interests. Your wife even feels a commitment to that friendship. When she has been sleeping with her brother, she knew it was harming you. What did she think about the consequences to her friendship?
> 
> Oh, yea, what does BF's husband think about all of this?
> 
> In all likelihood, she felt her BF would accept and maybe even welcome the relationship. If she dumped you and shacked up with him, then her SIL and best friend become the same person. For her that might a goal or at least not a negative outcome. She may even feel that your wife can save her brother.
> 
> Given that the two women are so close, it is impossible that she did not know what was going on. In fact, the close relationship of your wife and her BF is getting in the way of your relationship.
> 
> You may not feel that you have the strength to break the bond between these two women at this point. Most of the posters here believe that you ought to demand it. Have you met the BF on her own for a serious discussion? Say that you want advice from her on how to go forward. Ask her questions, implying that you respect her POV, and listen carefully to what she says. If she is very guarded and doesn't point out any problems with the situation, then she is being dishonest and is no ally of your marriage.
> 
> If she is honest, she will supply you with new information that should lead you be take more forceful action.


He BF is a single mom also living at home with her mom. Their father died at a young age and the Mom has a big new house so I fits them all nicely. Also another reason m kids loved going over there.


----------



## BK23

Sorry to harp, but the chances you will face a Dday number 2 are huge if you don't get this supposed BF out of your family's life.


----------



## Dday

Decorum said:


> Dday,
> You are handeling yourself well on this forum keep that up. Some op 's have a meltdown, from answering the same questions or addressing ths same issues, that's counterproductive, so good for you.
> 
> There are some time tested things that you are passing by, and maybe rightly so, at least you have heard about them here and you know the range of actions that are reasonable.
> 
> Your wife seems to confide in you fairly well, has that been typical for your marriage?
> 
> Has anyone recomended the book The 5 love languages yet? It would be a good book for the two of you to read and talk about.
> 
> also
> 
> NOT "Just Friends": Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal by S. Glass. Its a classic here. (Actually both are)
> 
> I know you want the relationship to be better than it was, it will be harder and easier now (assuming your wife is remorseful and sticks with it), harder because of the damage done by her infidelity, easier because you both (I hope) want to save it, and neither of you just wants staus quo.
> 
> Make no mistake reconcilation will be one of the hardest long term things you have ever done.
> 
> Dday,
> My wife and I have 4 kids the youngest just turned 18, I would do anything (morally right) to help them, I consider their well being and future more important than my own, you have chosen the same path I would in your situation, just keep your eyes open and you expectations high!!!
> 
> Take care!


We have always talked about everything and I am always honest with her and thought she was with me. Even during the affair we spent a lot of time together although she did start going to bed earlier and talking less. I just chalked it up to being busy and tired because of all the chores around the house that comes with 3 kids. B the time we both get home from work, feed he kids, laundry, dishes whatever she was ready for bed and I watched sports center. 

We have started reading not just friends.


----------



## Dday

BK23 said:


> Sorry to harp, but the chances you will face a Dday number 2 are huge if you don't get this supposed BF out of your family's life.


I understand why you say that and I have been warned several times here. It makes all the sense in he world to demand them to stop being friends. But it's my feeling that this wont hurt me or us and could make us/me stronger. I will be very interested or investigative when they are together and I will see how it goes.


----------



## Dday

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OK...shame on some people for making "dumb" assumptions. However, do you know what else was a dumb assumption? You condoning all of those sleepovers on weekends so that she could get rip roaring drunk and then crash somewhere else besides the marital home. Do you see how stupid that assumption was???


I do now.... I trusted my wife who I have been with since 1997 to sleep at a friends house so she didn't have to drive 25 minutes home over a bridge across state lines through a toll booth while she was drinking. Oh yea she is the mother of my 3 kids as well. 

I made an assumption with the information I had and I was wrong, I didn't always like it but I accepted it as a good decision. 

A lot of posters make wild assumptions and always towards the extreme negative. I'm ok with it but I just feel I answered enough questions that you shouldn't think that way.


----------



## warlock07

Dday said:


> All of the activity at my house was in the finished basement on the couch. There is an outside entrance and easy to sneak in and out.


She told you this, right? Unless you don't care, you should assume it happened in the marital bed


----------



## Dday

warlock07 said:


> She told you this, right? Unless you don't care, you should assume it happened in the marital bed


Yes, and I do believe her. The basement is kind of like my man cave, 55 inch TV Nice surround sound And a big comfy sectional. I haven't been down there since this happened except to do laundry. Our bedroom is right next to the kids and our door doesn't lock, Plus they wake up sometimes at night and come into our room undetected. The basement stairs can be locked with a childproof gate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

So the BF lives in the same house as the OM, and she never noticed your wife and him sleeping together and having sex.

Yeah, right.


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> So the BF lives in the same house as the OM, and she never noticed your wife and him sleeping together and having sex.
> 
> Yeah, right.


Like I said I haven't asked her myself yet. She had to of known something was happening. Although they did hide it from everyone according to my wife. He would set up like he was sleeping on the couch. Wait for everyone to go to bed and go up, hit it, then back to the couch for the morning. 

I told my wife I felt like when she was over about a month ago the BF looked at me and I just felt something was wrong. I listened to the first conversation between the two of them after Dday and she wasn't shocked but did not know the extent of what was going on is the best way I can explain it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

Just a remark from my experiences; my wife broke NC several times 2-3 months past D-day, just to "catch up". I get that you wife is very different from the other stories on this forum, I just thought I would mention the possibility.

D-day, it seems to me that you have forgiven your wife already, and that you fully trust her again. Could you hint us how we can assist you, do you worry about anything, do you need perspective on anything? Then maybe the thread would become more productive.


----------



## Shaggy

There remains the burner phone and the fact that them gong right to using that is very very hardcore experiences cheater stuff, especially when you didn't suspect anything.

That really sets off alarms with me. It says that you are dealing with experienced liars and cheats, which means they know other games to hide things AND the know just the right stories to tell.

The burner phone alone says to me that you are going to discover you are in a false R. They are still going to be contacting each other and hooking up.

You can discount all out "extreme" worries all you want, but that doesn't make the things we are pointing out any less true.

The mere fact she hid the burner for months and you had no clue makes me doubt you would be successful with your current approach. You are treating it like your wife can be trusted, and the your wife is naive about hiding things.

Problem is that she has for months now been an accomplished actress, liar, and cheater.


----------



## Hicks

There are a number of reasons why it's important that she cuts off all contact with OM's entire family. It really has very little to do with whether the BF is trustworthy. Here are the reasons:

-- Stops the reminders of the affair from being a permanent part of your life... 3 years from now, you are at a kids party with his kids, his sister, your wife... Do you really want this in your life?

-- Increases your wife's ablity to move on from her affair, since she is not constantly exposed to reminders which trigger her thougts of the affair, the OM, the happy times.

-- The more you ask your wife to do through ACTIONS rather than words, increases your wife's commitment to your marriage and shows you her committment to your marriage

-- They seem generally like dirtbags who you don't need near your kids

-- Greatly reduces the chance of an affair restarting in the future

-- By losing something other than the affair (a job, a friendship, kids being affected), she really gains understanding of why affairs are bad.

-- What if your kids become really good friends with OM's kid as they grow older... This would be horrible for your marriage.

On the flip side, what are the benefits to you, your wife, your marriage of having them stay in contact?

Once your recovery becomes about DOING rather than TALKING you will have something.


----------



## Dday

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I get it when it comes to the "make wild assumptions" posts on TAM. I've voiced my opinion on this from time to time too.
> 
> But I strongly believe that there is a disconnect in your head. You mentioned that people made assumptions that were extreme. But reread your post above. What you fail to grasp is that what your wife was doing - with your approval - WAS extreme. A married woman who is the mother of 3 children should NEVER go out with GFs and party hard enough that she is too drunk to drive home and subsequently crash at a friend's house. Seriously, what do you tell your kids when your wife was out like this? When they ask "Where's mom?", what do you tell them. Here is the truth - which I know you would never tell them - but let it sink in: * "Mom went out drinking with friends. She will probably be too drunk to drive home, so she'll crash at a friend's house."*.... DOESN'T THAT LOOK EXTREME TO YOU?????????????????


Honestly at the time it didn't. I see how it is unhealthy for a relationship especially when their is another adult male living in the house but I thought we were invincible to an affair or she was not that type of person I couldn't trust. I voiced concern and questioned it but never had a feeling it was a extreme threat. I can say that this type of situation will not happen again with any of her friends and we have talked about this. 

After reading some books and articles on infidelity I see that no marriage is affair proof and you should never unconditionally trust another person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

cpacan said:


> Just a remark from my experiences; my wife broke NC several times 2-3 months past D-day, just to "catch up". I get that you wife is very different from the other stories on this forum, I just thought I would mention the possibility.
> 
> D-day, it seems to me that you have forgiven your wife already, and that you fully trust her again. Could you hint us how we can assist you, do you worry about anything, do you need perspective on anything? Then maybe the thread would become more productive.


Did you or are you successfully reconciling? I feel if there is any break if the NC directly with the OM I am out. I guess I have forgiven or I'm trying to move on whatever you want to call it. But I don't trust her yet. I am letting her do some things and giving her opportunity to tell me where she is at when she'll be home who she is with just so I can see she is trying to rebuild some of that trust. It will never be unconditional again but from what I'm reading that shouldn't be that way anyhow. 

I do worry about another DDay, that she will contact him, that she's not going to be happy with me again in another 3 years. She told me that she will never do this again because of the pain it caused but how can she be sure. I'm sure 3 years ago she would of said the same thing then that she is not that type of person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

Shaggy said:


> There remains the burner phone and the fact that them gong right to using that is very very hardcore experiences cheater stuff, especially when you didn't suspect anything.
> 
> That really sets off alarms with me. It says that you are dealing with experienced liars and cheats, which means they know other games to hide things AND the know just the right stories to tell.
> 
> The burner phone alone says to me that you are going to discover you are in a false R. They are still going to be contacting each other and hooking up.
> 
> You can discount all out "extreme" worries all you want, but that doesn't make the things we are pointing out any less true.
> 
> The mere fact she hid the burner for months and you had no clue makes me doubt you would be successful with your current approach. You are treating it like your wife can be trusted, and the your wife is naive about hiding things.
> 
> Problem is that she has for months now been an accomplished actress, liar, and cheater.


I question numbers on the bill in the past and the amount of text messages and data usage since they chat iPhone to iPhone. I wasn't that alarmed and I wish I found this website back then but I probably pushed it underground back then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maincourse99

Are you at least going to put a VAR in her car or in the house where she's likely to talk on the phone? You may have said you were somewhere in this thread, sorry if I missed it. 

I've been through this 2 times, believe me, the withdrawal from an affair is generally a long process. I hope your wife is the exception.


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## Acabado

Dday said:


> Did you or are you successfully reconciling? *I feel if there is any break if the NC directly with the OM I am out.*


Them embrace the D like yesterday.
She will break NC. It's a 1000 % garantee given you are bassicaly setting up for failure by not demanding: Work change, NC with frin and children.
Your wife is not special, she's alike zillions of cheaters we've read about here or experienced directly. They almost always break NC even when the aviability is difficult, let along when you are making it so easy. It's a well known fact, the chances are very high, many/most researchers warn BSs about it as "something to expect" so they don't rush towards D when it happens.
She will break NC (not necessarily to restart the whole thing) and you are unwillingly? facilitating it.
Let me remind you have a responsability to your children, to protect you family. Don't fool yourself when it happens that she just failed on her own when it's so predictable. You have the responsability to limit the risks, you were "naive" before, don't be anymore. You have been warned once and again.
Please, limit the chances. Enforce definitive NC with the entire family. Tell her to to start seeking another job today.


----------



## alte Dame

The bf is a continued link between your W and the OM that will allow your W to keep her infatuation going. People who don't break off their A's voluntarily, but are forced to do so, find any way they can to stay in some sort of emotional touch. Read some of the threads here - waywards will secretly check fb accounts, log on dozens of times a day just to see if the AP is online, drive past the AP's house, call the AP and hang up - all of this to keep getting the hit of infatuation.

And your W wouldn't be doing anything so subtle. She's physically close to the guy's sister. She can at the very least vicariously stay in touch with him via the bf.

You are making a mistake here, sir. I really believe that. She needs to shut off contact with the bf.


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## LongWalk

Dday, sorry to ask again. But your wife's best friend, is she more important to your wife than you? Sounds like she is. How close are you to her BF? Did you have the sort of relationship which included frank conversation? You say that you noticed she looked at you in a funny way. I think you should call her on her failure to tell you.

She was not doing your wife any favors by enabling the A, unless she is not adverse to D, which leads your wife even closer to her, as in sister-in-law.


----------



## Decorum

Dday said:


> *I told my wife I felt like when she was over about a month ago the BF looked at me and I just felt something was wrong*. I listened to the first conversation between the two of them after Dday and she wasn't shocked but did not know the extent of what was going on is the best way I can explain it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The most important thing, and we say it all the time, is "Trust you gut!!!"

People come here all the time "I think somthing is going on", "I think she broke NC"

Dday they are almost always right (99.999...%).

We have another set of eyes in our soul and they see just as cearly as our natural eyes! Turst them!

If you talk to the Bf tell her what you said above, but state it as a fact. "When you were over that time I could tell that you thought somthing was wrong, now that I know what it is I want to know how much you knew and how long you knew it."

State it as an indisputable fact as if you saw it with your natural eyes and had every confidence in it.

If she knew anything she will know you think she is lying if she denies it, she will probably try to minimize it and say she suspected somthing, tell her "Looking back I can tell you more than suspected somthing, I am disappointed you will not be forthcomming with since its my marriage in the balance here".

Dont be afraid to bluff a little and be wrong, she will understand and probably overlook it considering what you have been through, just look more hurt than angry.

One more thing, having said that, many Ws report here that while they knew they were doing wrong and it would be hurtful to their husbands, it was when they saw the pain in their husbands eyes that they got it and truly began feeling remorse.

We never recomend weakness, crying, begging, etc, but letting the pain show in your eye is very important in this process, there will be some anger (its comming) of course but that pushes away, if your wife cares for you at all the pain in your eyes wil be devastating to her.


Take care!


----------



## LongWalk

Decorum said:


> The most important thing, and we say it all the time, is "Trust you gut!!!"
> 
> People come here all the time "I think somthing is going on", "I think she broke NC"
> 
> Dday they are almost always right (99.999...%).
> 
> We have another set of eyes in our soul and they see just as cearly as our natural eyes! Turst them!
> 
> If you talk to the Bf tell her what you said above, but state it as a fact. "When you were over that time I could tell that you thought somthing was wrong, now that I know what it is I want to know how much you knew and how long you knew it."
> 
> State it as an indisputable fact as if you saw it with your natural eyes and had every confidence in it.
> 
> If she knew anything she will know you think she is lying if she denies it, she will probably try to minimize it and say she suspected somthing, tell her "Looking back I can tell you more than suspected somthing, I am disappointed you will not be forthcomming with since its my marriage in the balance here".
> 
> Dont be afraid to bluff a little and be wrong, she will understand and probably overlook it considering what you have been through, just look more hurt than angry.
> 
> One more thing, having said that, many Ws report here that while they knew they were doing wrong and it would be hurtful to their husbands, it was when they saw the pain in their husbands eyes that they got it and truly began feeling remorse.
> 
> We never recomend weakness, crying, begging, etc, but letting the pain show in your eye is very important in this process, there will be some anger (its comming) of course but that pushes away, if your wife cares for you at all the pain in your eyes wil be devastating to her.
> 
> 
> Take care!


The advice above is sound. Dday, you have been listening to hard criticism from this forum and you have been brave enough to take it because you know that this is a reality check.

One more question you can put to BF. Ask her if she is your friend? Say something like: "I know you and my wife are very close friends, but are you friends with me?"

and "If your brother approaches my wife to so much as ask the time of day, are you going tell him to get the fvck away. Are your going to do that? Are you going call me immediately?"

You must be aware that BF can be a conduit for messages between your wife and OM. Can you trust her? If the two of them want to pass love notes via her phone, how can you stop that?


----------



## Dday

I do plan on sitting with the best friend and discussing these issues. I thought about calling her but I want to see her reaction and mannerisms during the conversations. Thank you for the questions for her, I will use all of them. 

I will also ask my wife a lot more of these questions. I also struggle thinking about the long term with this friendship. I don't want to make a decision until I talk to the BF and get a feel for which side she is on. I will ask her how this is going to work in a few years and her kid asks why we can't come to their house or why uncle OM can't come to my b day party. They are young enough now that they don't know what is going on but they will surely figure it out. 

I see the danger and you guys did a great job pointing it out, I just don't have all of the information I need right now to make that decision.


----------



## Shaggy

Ask what will they do when the bff has a wedding or a birthday party, and your wife can't go.


----------



## jnj express

You know----we are all wasting our time, the wife ain't gonna ever end it with her BF----THEY WORK TOGETHER----and Dday--isn't gonna make his wife quit her job, so it will be, what it will be---best possible outcome----all of Dday's family physically stays away from BF, family, at all times----cept for BF, and wife when they are at work---that is the best that can be hoped for


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Guys, you are too much jumping to conclusions. I know the statistics and the cheater scripts, so I understand why you say what you do.

But OP is not yet ready, and if he wants to proceed based on facts, I understand he gets a bit irritated by the experiences of everybody.

So lets wait and see what happens. I would only say to OP, hope for the best but prepare for the worst, that can do no harm, right?


----------



## carmen ohio

Dday said:


> I do plan on sitting with the best friend and discussing these issues. I thought about calling her but I want to see her reaction and mannerisms during the conversations. Thank you for the questions for her, I will use all of them.
> 
> I will also ask my wife a lot more of these questions. I also struggle thinking about the long term with this friendship. I don't want to make a decision until I talk to the BF and get a feel for which side she is on. I will ask her how this is going to work in a few years and her kid asks why we can't come to their house or why uncle OM can't come to my b day party. They are young enough now that they don't know what is going on but they will surely figure it out.
> 
> I see the danger and you guys did a great job pointing it out, I just don't have all of the information I need right now to make that decision.


Dday,

You have all the information you need:

- Your WW cheated on you with her BF's brother

- The BF and OM live in the same house

- You overheard a conversation between your WW and her BF in which the BF said _"she was suspicious but didn't know what to say to stop it"_

- Your WW replied by _"apologizing to her bf for putting her in this position"_

But, incredibly, instead of reaching the only logical conclusion -- that the BF knew what was going on but did nothing to stop it or to warn you -- you conclude _"so I truly do not think she was part of this."_

(The foregoing quotes are from your second post.)

Let me remind you of two famous expressions that you be wise to take to heart:

_"There are none so blind as those who will not see."_ (John Heywood, 1564)

_"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."_ (George Santayana, 1905)

Why you choose to be blind is a mystery. What is likely to happen to you if you continue to forget what you have learned is not.


----------



## Dday

jnj express said:


> You know----we are all wasting our time, the wife ain't gonna ever end it with her BF----THEY WORK TOGETHER----and Dday--isn't gonna make his wife quit her job, so it will be, what it will be---best possible outcome----all of Dday's family physically stays away from BF, family, at all times----cept for BF, and wife when they are at work---that is the best that can be hoped for


That is the truth, they work together and I can't make her quit her job. They will talk every day anyway and I would like to see if the bf is on my side or not. Why would she tell me now if something is going on and not before? I don't know but I plan on asking. She hasn't wanted to talk to my wife about it at all until the other day, she is ashamed almost as much as my wife for what happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

carmen ohio said:


> Dday,
> 
> You have all the information you need:
> 
> - Your WW cheated on you with her BF's brother
> 
> - The BF and OM live in the same house
> 
> - You overheard a conversation between your WW and her BF in which the BF said _"she was suspicious but didn't know what to say to stop it"_
> 
> - Your WW replied by _"apologizing to her bf for putting her in this position"_
> 
> But, incredibly, instead of reaching the only logical conclusion -- that the BF knew what was going on but did nothing to stop it or to warn you -- you conclude _"so I truly do not think she was part of this."_
> 
> (The foregoing quotes are from your second post.)
> 
> Let me remind you of two famous expressions that you be wise to take to heart:
> 
> _"There are none so blind as those who will not see."_ (John Heywood, 1564)
> 
> _"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."_ (George Santayana, 1905)
> 
> Why you choose to be blind is a mystery. What is likely to happen to you if you continue to forget what you have learned is not.


Yes that is all true and the snap decision/judgement is to cut all ties. I admit that makes sense and is logical. I wish it was that easy. Have you ever told someone not to be friends anymore? I don't think it is that simple, especially when they work together. If there is a chance I can trust the BF moving forward don't you think that is a huge advantage for me? Having a set of eyes on the OM and someone telling him to stay away?I know it's not common but I think I might be able to. I won't know until we talk. 

I understand the long term issues with the BF in the picture, like the triggers or future events and that is something I need to think about and discuss with my wife and friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Dday said:


> Yes that is all true and the snap decision/judgement is to cut all ties. I admit that makes sense and is logical. I wish it was that easy. Have you ever told someone not to be friends anymore? I don't think it is that simple, especially when they work together. If there is a chance I can trust the BF moving forward don't you think that is a huge advantage for me? Having a set of eyes on the OM and someone telling him to stay away?I know it's not common but I think I might be able to. I won't know until we talk.
> 
> I understand the long term issues with the BF in the picture, like the triggers or future events and that is something I need to think about and discuss with my wife and friend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The BF is NOT your friend and she will not be another set of eyes for you.

She had to have known what was going on.

And yes, you can tell your wife not to be friends with someone who is detrimental to your marriage.

Hell, think about it - you already told your wife that she can't be friends with the OM.

Wait, I see your point now. I bet they're still friends.

And with that, I must leave this thread for my own sanity.

Good luck!


----------



## BK23

Dday said:


> I understand the long term issues with the BF in the picture, like the triggers or future events and that is something I need to think about and discuss with my wife and friend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, sorry to be such a broken record about this, but I think it's really important. Even if the BF is "on your side," seeing her all the time is definitely going to make it hard or impossible for your wife to put this bastard in her rear view. I know it's extreme, but if I was in your shoes--and I didn't just walk--I would have my wife looking for a new job right now. I know it's drastic, but with an affair of this magnitude, and emotional intensity, I think you are going to have to take some pretty decisive action to have even the slightest chance at R. You will never be able to trust her while she is in such close contact with this BF. I am rooting for you dude. Good luck.


----------



## Dday

I have a question about the sex when trying to R. 

I've been ok with it and not thinking about her with OM during. I do know she did some things with the OM we haven't done or only a couple of times. How do you get her to do things without reminding both of us of the OM. I don't want to do it only because he did, it's stuff I always wanted and she was always not into. It's nothing crazy or anal or anything like that but how do you bring it up in conversation and when?

She is into sex with me more this last week than she has been in a long time and it is great. She just about always gets to finish and she can't lie about that because I feel the goosebumps over her body. But she always was able to finish even during the A. I'm just looking for some variety between us without asking during and possibly ruining the mood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> The BF is NOT your friend and she will not be another set of eyes for you.
> 
> She had to have known what was going on.
> 
> And yes, you can tell your wife not to be friends with someone who is detrimental to your marriage.
> 
> Hell, think about it - you already told your wife that she can't be friends with the OM.
> 
> Wait, I see your point now. I bet they're still friends.
> 
> And with that, I must leave this thread for my own sanity.
> 
> Good luck!


Come on you can't leave and you know it. You want to watch me crash and burn so you can say I told you so. 

I have been reading tons and there is no right way or proven way to go about this. I do appreciate all of the past experiences you have to offer and I am using them to watch my situation closely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Dday said:


> I have a question about the sex when trying to R.
> 
> I've been ok with it and not thinking about her with OM during. I do know she did some things with the OM we haven't done or only a couple of times. How do you get her to do things without reminding both of us of the OM.* I don't want to do it only because he did, it's stuff I always wanted and she was always not into. It's nothing crazy or anal or anything like that but how do you bring it up in conversation and when?*
> 
> She is into sex with me more this last week than she has been in a long time and it is great. She just about always gets to finish and she can't lie about that because I feel the goosebumps over her body. But she always was able to finish even during the A. I'm just looking for some variety between us without asking during and possibly ruining the mood.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



forlorn99. 


Also, Why don't you tell her some stuff that you want ? After all, se sexes you up and you forgive everything..right?


----------



## JCD

Dday said:


> Come on you can't leave and you know it. You want to watch me crash and burn so you can say I told you so.
> 
> I have been reading tons and there is no right way or proven way to go about this. I do appreciate all of the past experiences you have to offer and I am using them to watch my situation closely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it really is a coping mechanism.

See...we see dozens of guys like you come through here. They give us the circumstances and we lay out a probable course of action, how people react, some psychology, and human nature.

For example, there is a song which I hear which immediately makes me think of my EA friend. Trigger hard! I don't listen to it much anymore. I tossed it out of my life because I didn't want to keep that chapter in my life alive.

Your wife has a living breathing trigger who just happens to be her BF. Every time she sees her, she'll remember that time they went off and got drunk together WITHOUT YOU and then she had the OM bang her like a drum.

But these guys (cou-like you-gh) come and tell us how we are wrong. How she is REALLY remorseful. How knowing enough about a burner phone is something that just occured to her (unless she is a fan of Breaking Bad). And you...I mean THEY drag their feet on exposure, on boundaries, on investigating their wives, on double checking the stories, on...well EVERYTHING.

And 2 or 3 months later, they are crying about how nothing has changed, she's still sneaking around, etc.

The Count gives it the old college try and then bows out before watching the inevitable trainwreck. He hates seeing grown men cry, I suppose.

Me? I tend toward sarcasm and reading to see if the guy 'gets it' first. It saves me time and stress. Occasionally I'll jump on the thread in the beginning, but my heart's been broken so many times and I need to control my :absolut:

You need to let her know she isn't a scarlet woman forever, but you also need to stick a GPS suppository up her butt because right now, she's in No Man's Land. She still has all the cute fluffy orgasmic memories of the guy and none of the negative consequences except for some strong lectures from you (which makes YOU the bad guy...is life fair or what?).

So she is likely to break NC with or without the connivance of the BF. It's human nature. People prefer doughnuts to castor oil. You need to catch her so she KNOWS she can't get away with it anymore.

See, breaking NC is bad but I am more tolerant of human frailty. Plus it gives you another reason to chew her ass. People push boundaries. It's people.

As Terry Pratchett said: If you painted a sign over a button with the caption "Do Not Push! Will End World" you won't even have time to let the paint dry.


----------



## NewM

BF will never pick you over her brother.She won't be another set of eyes for you.

Regarding kids bday,is your wife going alone or are you going with her?I don't think you should bank on your wife and his sister being honest with you about if OM showed up or not.


----------



## maincourse99

_That is the truth, they work together and I can't make her quit her job. _

If I were in your shoes, I would tell my wife to quit that job and go N/C with her (ex) BF or I will file for divorce. 

If she REALLY wants to R with you she would do that for you, with no hesitation. It isn't an unreasonable request.


----------



## JCD

maincourse99 said:


> _That is the truth, they work together and I can't make her quit her job. _
> 
> If I were in your shoes, I would tell my wife to quit that job and go N/C with her (ex) BF or I will file for divorce.
> 
> If she REALLY wants to R with you she would do that for you, with no hesitation. It isn't an unreasonable request.


I could wait to the end of the school year for a transfer...


----------



## TCSRedhead

I hate to add to this but... if I were the OM's sister - I couldn't be friends with your wife. I would be FURIOUS that your wife put his recovery in danger with her behavior.

That thought just keeps coming to mind - why is BF ok with remaining friends when her friend (your wife) betrayed you and put her brother at risk? What if you went off the deep end and beat him up? What if you still did? If I were the BF, those would all be my questions/concerns.


----------



## LongWalk

TCSRedhead said:


> I hate to add to this but... if I were the OM's sister - I couldn't be friends with your wife. I would be FURIOUS that your wife put his recovery in danger with her behavior.
> 
> That thought just keeps coming to mind - why is BF ok with remaining friends when her friend (your wife) betrayed you and put her brother at risk? What if you went off the deep end and beat him up? What if you still did? If I were the BF, those would all be my questions/concerns.


TCSRedhead, that is one take on it. Good to get BH to consider different angles. However, it is far more likely that the sister and brother are in conflict. Anyone who has lived with an addict knows that they lie to and steal from their own family.

My first cousin, 55, just died young from cancer, a long and painful death. Her youngest son, 17, got into drugs and dropped out of high school. He stole from his mother repeatedly as she was struggling to recover. He stole from his sisters. They all had to lock their rooms so that he could not get into their stuff. He broke in a stole anyway. He was a potential track star who ran the mile in under 6 minutes. Eventually he ran away from home. And now he is running from the law.

Fortunately, he managed to get back to say goodbye to his mom just before she died. I don't know where he is but his Facebook wall features pictures of a crack pipe, bud and a pile of cash. He will do time in prison before he gets clean, if ever. I hope that I am wrong in my prediction, but its naive to think he will be different than other drug addicts who must turn to criminality to support their habits.

Your WWBFF may be angry that he has gotten involved with her married colleague, as the previous poster noted. But a family dealing with an addict may also reason that your wife can help him recover. Her love might get him to wean himself off opiates, go out and get a job, settle down and get married and raise family. A great dream. But who is he going to marry but the beautiful single mom whose love saved him. I wouldn't bet that it turns out that way, but she and her family may grasp for straws. If your wife comes into the fold, her income will reduce the economic burden of the unemployed son/brother (at the expense of your children).

And what about you? If your wife divorced you and her best friend became her sister-in-law, you might reason that you still had to talk to them and be friends because you'd have to go over to pick up and drop off your kids. They are decent folk with no hard feelings and surely would all just feel sorry for you. You can look forward to sitting in the kitchen of the big house and have a piece of pie and coffee with everyone. They would say you were a great guy for not standing in the way of true love. And if you got remarried your new wife would be welcomed, too.

What I am writing here is just conjecture, a sick nightmare. But it is not completely implausible. It will become less plausible if you force your wife to switch jobs and break off the toxic relationship with her best friend.

At the moment you lack the authority to these drastic things happen. However, there are plenty of wise posters who will guide you forward. You probably have not exposed the A to the principal of the school, but that is one step that you should take. The principal may help your wife get a transfer.

You don't have to tell her about the drinking that your wife and BF do, but you can hold it over their heads to get YOUR way. You must be prepared to follow through on these points because that is the only way your credibility as husband will rise.

It is nice that your sex life has picked up. You might be afraid that if you lay down the law, your wife will deny you. In fact, right now she is enthusiastic because there is a little fear about what you are going to do. You're a nice guy but you are pissed. The more you take action, the more your wife will respect you and want you. The more you let things slide back to the status quo, the more the status quo will bite your ass.


----------



## Chaparral

TCSRedhead said:


> I hate to add to this but... if I were the OM's sister - I couldn't be friends with your wife. I would be FURIOUS that your wife put his recovery in danger with her behavior.
> 
> That thought just keeps coming to mind - why is BF ok with remaining friends when her friend (your wife) betrayed you and put her brother at risk? What if you went off the deep end and beat him up? What if you still did? If I were the BF, those would all be my questions/concerns.


I keep think the opposite. Wouldn't it be great if they get a divorce and DDay's wife could be her sister in law. Then they could still be like sisters, drinking sisters.

One thing I doubt also is that WW was just going out drinking and then going to bf's house to get it on. There had to be more contact than that. I keep wondering if he wasn't going out with them, at least on occasion. But oh well..............


----------



## Dday

TCSRedhead said:


> I hate to add to this but... if I were the OM's sister - I couldn't be friends with your wife. I would be FURIOUS that your wife put his recovery in danger with her behavior.
> 
> That thought just keeps coming to mind - why is BF ok with remaining friends when her friend (your wife) betrayed you and put her brother at risk? What if you went off the deep end and beat him up? What if you still did? If I were the BF, those would all be my questions/concerns.


I had that thought as well, and I will ask the BF this. I will also remind her that her brother is dead to me and my wife. That he can never be talked about, that if I do see him it will not go well. If she is ok with the fact that I wish he was dead than we might have a chance to be friends. She will see the hurt in my eyes and what she knowingly or unknowingly contributed too. I will make it clear that she had a roll in this and she could of stopped it way earlier. That is my plan anyway and I will see how she reacts. Even if she does agree with me and is ok that I wish her brother dead, I still think long term the friendship is going to have many issues until he is out of the house or she is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

NewM said:


> BF will never pick you over her brother.She won't be another set of eyes for you.
> 
> Regarding kids bday,is your wife going alone or are you going with her?I don't think you should bank on your wife and his sister being honest with you about if OM showed up or not.


I haven't decided if I'm going to go or not. It's still a few weeks away. If my friend is going with his wife than I probably will. If he did show up that is the last place I would want to confront him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jnj express

You can demand---your wife transfer to another school, in the district----she should be able to teach any grade from K thru grade 6, with her elementary credential---I would assume, your wife works in a school district that has more than one elementary school---so she can transfer, and if necessary, she can bump a teacher lower than her on the salary schedule

This is a demand that must be met---summer is coming and that is when the school district will shuffle personnel----

Your wife really does have to end it with ALL of this other family----NO CONTACT, means just that NO CONTACT----as long as your wife's lovers sister sees your wife---your wife's mind will think of her lover

I am wondering----has there been one iota of accountability on your wife's part----you still have sex with her, you still allow her to drink---she is still in the marital bed----she still has her cushy lifestyle

What has changed----you yell at her---big F'ing deal-----she might as well go do another guy---she knows now---you will do nothing about it


----------



## Acabado

Can you tell why your wife can't start TODAY to find a different daycare? Trying it at least?


----------



## jnj express

Hey Big A---his wife is a Kindergarten teacher---she works for a school district, is under contract, and credentialed by the sate she lives in---she just can't pick up and go

Also to be bluntly honest---she will get a very good retirement, and benefits----so should keep her job---retirement, and benefits, aren't that easy to get, nor keep when retired


----------



## Acabado

jnj express said:


> Hey Big A---his wife is a Kindergarten teacher---she works for a school district, is under contract, and credentialed by the sate she lives in---she just can't pick up and go
> 
> Also to be bluntly honest---she will get a very good retirement, and benefits----so should keep her job---retirement, and benefits, aren't that easy to get, nor keep when retired


Thanks


----------



## NewM

Dday said:


> I haven't decided if I'm going to go or not. It's still a few weeks away. If my friend is going with his wife than I probably will. If he did show up that is the last place I would want to confront him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you should go no matter who else goes.If you,your friend and his wife don't go OM can show up,have a quickie with your wife in bathroom/car,and his sister and your wife can tell you he didn't show up.


----------



## Decorum

Its hard to push a noodle!


Be it a BS or a WW.


----------



## Shaggy

On the sex stuff, don't over think it and just initiate the stuff you want. Don't discuss it, just take her how you want to.


----------



## SadandAngry

NewM said:


> I think you should go no matter who else goes.If you,your friend and his wife don't go OM can show up,have a quickie with your wife in bathroom/car,and his sister and your wife can tell you he didn't show up.


Oh that could not possibly happen! His wife is a great wife, and a terrific mom, and the BF had his best interests at heart all the way! Poor thing never had the first idea what was going on, haven't you been reading the thread?

Op, what you fail to realize at this point, is that you will revisit the decisions you are making now in the future. Even in the best case scenario, if you fail to take steps to confirm what your wife says independently, in order to verify the truthfulness, you will wonder if it ever is the truth. If there are no consequences, you will wonder what would give her pause to do the same thing again in the future. You say it's the hurt in your eyes, but here's the thing, by the time she decided to do this, she didn't care if it would hurt you or not. It has to hurt her.


----------



## cledus_snow

> I had that thought as well, and I will ask the BF this. I will also remind her that her brother is dead to me and my wife. That he can never be talked about, that if I do see him it will not go well. If she is ok with the fact that I wish he was dead than *we might have a chance to be friends.* She will see the hurt in my eyes and what *she knowingly or unknowingly *contributed too. I will make it clear that *she had a roll in this and she could of stopped it way earlier.* That is my plan anyway and I will see how she reacts. Even if she does agree with me and is ok that I wish her brother dead, *I still think long term the friendship is going to have many issues *until he is out of the house or she is.



first off, why would you want to keep being friends with this woman? second, it makes no difference if she knew or not. the role she played was being the OM's sister. lastly..... WHY THE EFF WOULD YOU WANT TO STILL HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HER?! move on..... without these people!


----------



## Dday

SadandAngry said:


> Oh that could not possibly happen! His wife is a great wife, and a terrific mom, and the BF had his best interests at heart all the way! Poor thing never had the first idea what was going on, haven't you been reading the thread?
> 
> Op, what you fail to realize at this point, is that you will revisit the decisions you are making now in the future. Even in the best case scenario, if you fail to take steps to confirm what your wife says independently, in order to verify the truthfulness, you will wonder if it ever is the truth. If there are no consequences, you will wonder what would give her pause to do the same thing again in the future. You say it's the hurt in your eyes, but here's the thing, by the time she decided to do this, she didn't care if it would hurt you or not. It has to hurt her.


Point taken... I never said she was a great wife, yes she is a great mother and teacher but not wife. Not at this time anyway. She was and I hope she can be in the future. 

I am confirming where she is, I use the iPhone app for that. I just don't think the VAR will work in my case. All of the communication was through text messages. I have looked for a burner phone and will continue to do so. On the phone I found there were 31000 text messages and 3 phone calls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Dday said:


> Point taken... I never said she was a great wife, yes she is a great mother and teacher but not wife. Not at this time anyway. She was and I hope she can be in the future.
> 
> I am confirming where she is, I use the iPhone app for that. I just don't think the VAR will work in my case. All of the communication was through text messages. I have looked for a burner phone and will continue to do so. On the phone I found there were 31000 text messages and 3 phone calls.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People talk to themselves when they are alone often. You have no idea just what you might catch. Case in point, I was blown away by what I caught on the keylogger, I had no idea. I put it on there for a different reason.


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## BK23

You also may catch a revealing conversation with a third-party. e.g. her POSBF


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Dday said:


> but I thought [...] she was not that type of person I couldn't trust. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting how you say that in one post yet steadfastly trust her word on every detail of the affair in other posts.

For example, you trust that they only had sex downstairs. However, she has a history of lying, as well as a pretty big incentive to leave out more hurtful details. Certainly you can see why others would wonder about this.

Your response has been that you have questioned her about this a lot, and you believe she is truthful. The problem with this is that you have a clear track record of not being able to tell when she is lying. I know that is hard to admit, but the fact is that she ran around on you for nine months. She did that even though you had issues and confronted her about certain behavior. She convinced you nothing was going on. She lied to you and fooled you. 

So, again, why is now different. Besides the tears and her words of contrition, why is anything really different? You really need to step back and realize that while you may *think* she is being truthful, you don't know that. And you can't proceed with knowing anything. At best, you need to trust but verify. You need to show that she has lost (for now) your trust in her bare words.


----------



## warlock07

He wants to reconcile so bad that he is forcing a false reality on himself. He wants the affair to be just a bad dream. His wife apologizes and everything is back to normal. Only affairs don't work like that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Dday said:


> I am confirming where she is, I use the iPhone app for that. _Posted via Mobile Device_


You realize that is incomplete. She goes to that birthday party, drops the kids off, leaves the phone in the car and hangs out with him, or even drives away. You are none the wiser.

I have no idea is she would actually do this, but don't kid yourself - there are a lot of options you just don't have covered.


----------



## Dday

Tall Average Guy said:


> Interesting how you say that in one post yet steadfastly trust her word on every detail of the affair in other posts.
> 
> For example, you trust that they only had sex downstairs. However, she has a history of lying, as well as a pretty big incentive to leave out more hurtful details. Certainly you can see why others would wonder about this.
> 
> Your response has been that you have questioned her about this a lot, and you believe she is truthful. The problem with this is that you have a clear track record of not being able to tell when she is lying. I know that is hard to admit, but the fact is that she ran around on you for nine months. She did that even though you had issues and confronted her about certain behavior. She convinced you nothing was going on. She lied to you and fooled you.
> 
> So, again, why is now different. Besides the tears and her words of contrition, why is anything really different? You really need to step back and realize that while you may *think* she is being truthful, you don't know that. And you can't proceed with knowing anything. At best, you need to trust but verify. You need to show that she has lost (for now) your trust in her bare words.


You are right that she is a good liar and could still be lying about stuff. The thing is I didn't really believe her before but I had no idea what she was doing was this extreme. I was played like a fool and I understand that and it makes me angry. I felt something wasn't right or she was withholding something but I never could put my finger on it. Right now my senses are she is being truthful but I am trying my best to verify. 

I asked her for a written statement on some issues I think she may be lying about and in that statement agree to me having majority custody of the kids if she is caught lying or if she cheats again. I know that it would t stand up in court but if she writes that I think it will be a good sign she's not lying. There were times during the affair I made her promise on the kids or stuff like that and she always denied and now she says she doesn't remember promising on the kids. So if she writes it there will be no question. I have asked for this for the last few days and haven't got it yet. 

As for the lying about where it happened I don't think that's a lie only because it would be extremely risky in our bedroom. I said before our door doesn't lock right and the kids do get up sometimes and try to sneak into bed with us. 

Some things in the statement I asked for are:

She said she never had sex with him while the kids were there during a play date. This includes twice when they slept over. I am skeptical of this but she is standing firm that she never did. 

She said she never had sex or given him a blow job while me and the OM were together. I question this as well. One weekend we were at my shore house and he was invited, this was 2 weeks after they had sex for the first time. I know one if the nights I went to bed early (like 1:00am) and she stayed up that night with our friends plus him. I don't know what time she got to bed but I do remember getting shot down in the morning. There were multiple other times / nights we were together and i was never real possessive or kept track where she was. She is firm that this never happened. 

That there are no others that I don't know about. There is one other guy I know she was friendly with in the last 2 years that I questioned. She is firm on this. 

That she didn't do anal with him. It just seems to me that she would of done anything he wanted. She is extremely firm on this. 

There has been no direct contact since Dday with the OM. She says there has not. 

She was brutally honest with most details and events so I think she is telling the truth but I can't be sure. She knows I have very little trust in her right now and that I need to see actions more than words. She has been trying hard and that is what I guess we need right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Tall Average Guy said:


> You realize that is incomplete. She goes to that birthday party, drops the kids off, leaves the phone in the car and hangs out with him, or even drives away. You are none the wiser.
> 
> I have no idea is she would actually do this, but don't kid yourself - there are a lot of options you just don't have covered.


I told her she could do that! She knows that when I text or call she has to get back to me right away because of this. Her phone died the other day and she went to her car and called me when the phone charged up. She was still at work but I told her how easy it would be for her to sneak over there at lunch or something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BK23

Dday said:


> I told her she could do that! She knows that when I text or call she has to get back to me right away because of this. Her phone died the other day and she went to her car and called me when the phone charged up. She was still at work but I told her how easy it would be for her to sneak over there at lunch or something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good job keeping tabs. Still think you should put a VAR in her car. Also, that job and friend have to go. Way too much temptation. Not to be melodramatic, but I think this R is doomed unless you get rid of the friend and the job... I really hope I'm wrong.


----------



## warlock07

Dday said:


> You are right that she is a good liar and could still be lying about stuff. The thing is I didn't really believe her before but I had no idea what she was doing was this extreme. I was played like a fool and I understand that and it makes me angry. I felt something wasn't right or she was withholding something but I never could put my finger on it. Right now my senses are she is being truthful but I am trying my best to verify.
> 
> I asked her for a written statement on some issues I think she may be lying about and in that statement agree to me having majority custody of the kids if she is caught lying or if she cheats again. I know that it would t stand up in court but if she writes that I think it will be a good sign she's not lying. There were times during the affair I made her promise on the kids or stuff like that and she always denied and now she says she doesn't remember promising on the kids. So if she writes it there will be no question. I have asked for this for the last few days and haven't got it yet.
> 
> As for the lying about where it happened I don't think that's a lie only because it would be extremely risky in our bedroom. I said before our door doesn't lock right and the kids do get up sometimes and try to sneak into bed with us.
> 
> Some things in the statement I asked for are:
> 
> She said she never had sex with him while the kids were there during a play date. This includes twice when they slept over. I am skeptical of this but she is standing firm that she never did.
> 
> She said she never had sex or given him a blow job while me and the OM were together. I question this as well. One weekend we were at my shore house and he was invited, this was 2 weeks after they had sex for the first time. I know one if the nights I went to bed early (like 1:00am) and she stayed up that night with our friends plus him. I don't know what time she got to bed but I do remember getting shot down in the morning. There were multiple other times / nights we were together and i was never real possessive or kept track where she was. She is firm that this never happened.
> 
> That there are no others that I don't know about. There is one other guy I know she was friendly with in the last 2 years that I questioned. She is firm on this.
> 
> That she didn't do anal with him. It just seems to me that she would of done anything he wanted. She is extremely firm on this.
> 
> There has been no direct contact since Dday with the OM. She says there has not.
> 
> She was brutally honest with most details and events so I think she is telling the truth but I can't be sure. She knows I have very little trust in her right now and that I need to see actions more than words. She has been trying hard and that is what I guess we need right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was firm on not having an affair either, remember. 

What brutally honest ? You got nothing. She probably told you that she did not even enjoy the sex. Sorry mate! The lies haven't ended. It is absolutely clear that she is trickle truthing you and "protecting" you for getting hurt more. She is even lying about swearing about the kids.

She will sell what you will buy and she has no reason to tell you the truth because you are dead set on reconciliation because she already made the decision that the " details will hurt you " . There is no dealbreaker for you, so she will try to get away with at little as possible since more revelations will hurt the power balance in the marriage.

You should tell her that you think she had sex when you and OM were together. And that she did stuff with him that she never offered or did with you. Base your R on these assumptions because they will be less hurtful in the long term. 

Or tell her that you will have her take a polygraph test.


----------



## Dday

warlock07 said:


> She was firm on not having an affair either, remember.
> 
> What brutally honest ? It is clear that she is trickle truthing you and "protecting" you for getting hurt more. She is even lying about swearing about the kids.
> 
> She will sell what you will buy and she has no reason to tell you the truth because you are dead set on reconciliation because she already made the decision that the " details will hurt you " . There is no dealbreaker for you, so she will try to get away with at little as possible since more revelations will hurt the power balance in the marriage.
> 
> You should tell her that you think she had sex when you and OM were together. And that she did stuff with him that she never offered or did with you. Base your R on these assumptions because they will be less hurtful in the long term.
> 
> Or tell her that you will have her take a polygraph test.


There was very little or no TT up to this point. I got most of the details about the affair within the first 1-2 days. The stuff she told me was worse than some of the above. I already told her I don't believe her on a few of these questions but she is standing firm. And yes she has done that before. I just think putting it in writing will be more meaningful and I will have evidence to pull out later and it's not a he said she said. 

Brutally honest like giving BJ and swollowed, I get plenty of bjs but never allowed to cum inside her mouth, multiple orgasms, multiple times in one one night, let him go down on her which she always says she hates. I can go on but she told me stuff I didn't want to hear but I asked. The other stuff I was just trying to figure out how many times (not that it really matters)and what the relationship was about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Dday read mr335's thread in considering divorce he let his wife work with the ap and they kept it going she moved out, everyone warned him. Just to give you some perspective.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

His life his wife his decision, but he will realise later that he handled many things wrongly it will be too late then.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

tom67 said:


> Dday read mr335's thread in considering divorce he let his wife work with the ap and they kept it going she moved out, everyone warned him. Just to give you some perspective.




We can lead them to river but we cant make them drink.

OP is too reluctant to see and hear us, he is too nice.
I hope OP will read "No more Mr.Nice guy and Married mans sex life".


----------



## JCD

Dday said:


> I told her she could do that! She knows that when I text or call she has to get back to me right away because of this. Her phone died the other day and she went to her car and called me when the phone charged up. She was still at work but I told her how easy it would be for her to sneak over there at lunch or something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very simple. She has 5 minutes to respond to any call or text.

If she's in a meeting, too bad. She needs to text.

And I would ask her specific questions: Where did we go on vacation? What color was the dress you wore last week at dinner?

This is if she HAS to respond via text cause she could leave the phone with someone else. Think of half a dozen of these questions which SHE should know the answers too.

But calls are better.

But you should get her some new clothes.

Here is a tee shirt I might suggest:


----------



## Shaggy

A couple of things,

1. Did she do things with him that she won't with you?

2. Who paid for the phone and if it was her how did she pay? This is important because it might let you discover any new phones

3. Do you have the number of the burner phone? Would you be able to find out if it was assigned to a new replacement phone?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Dday said:


> As for the lying about where it happened I don't think that's a lie only because it would be extremely risky in our bedroom. I said before our door doesn't lock right and the kids do get up sometimes and try to sneak into bed with us.


Except that the entire thing was risky. Having sex with her kids in the house is risky because they could go looking for her at any time. Having sex at her BFs house was risky because she could have gotten up and heard something. Yet she still did at least those two things.

I know I (and others) have hammered on this, but your logic does not hold up. You want to believe her. And she may be telling the truth. But your lack of any real doubt (you say you are not sure if she is telling the truth but defend her like she is) is a huge blind spot for you.

As for your questions:



> She said she never had sex with him while the kids were there during a play date. This includes twice when they slept over. I am skeptical of this but she is standing firm that she never did.


Consider that you were skeptical nine months ago, but by standing firm she got you to back down.



> She said she never had sex or given him a blow job while me and the OM were together. I question this as well. One weekend we were at my shore house and he was invited, this was 2 weeks after they had sex for the first time. I know one if the nights I went to bed early (like 1:00am) and she stayed up that night with our friends plus him. I don't know what time she got to bed but I do remember getting shot down in the morning. There were multiple other times / nights we were together and i was never real possessive or kept track where she was. She is firm that this never happened.
> 
> That there are no others that I don't know about. There is one other guy I know she was friendly with in the last 2 years that I questioned. She is firm on this.
> 
> That she didn't do anal with him. It just seems to me that she would of done anything he wanted. She is extremely firm on this.
> 
> There has been no direct contact since Dday with the OM. She says there has not.


How do you know? You have the word of a liar. I note that you are skeptical of her stories, yet still believe she is telling the truth. You were skeptical nine months ago, but by standing her ground, she got you to back down. 

One question I do have - has she admitted to anything that you could not verify through other means (texts, call records, other people)? Has she admitted to any bad thing on her own without you being able to verify it? Or has she only admitted the bad things where they could be proven?



> She was brutally honest with most details and events so I think she is telling the truth but I can't be sure. She knows I have very little trust in her right now and that I need to see actions more than words. She has been trying hard and that is what I guess we need right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But if she admitted any of these other things, it would be even worse. Have you considered telling her that you doubt her, and giving her the job of showing that you can trust her. Put it on her to reestablish trust.


----------



## tom67

Good God for the near future put a VAR in the car and I would suggest a pen VAR and stick it in her purse.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Dday said:


> she is a great mother and teacher but not wife. Not at this time anywa


Speaking as the fWW - she was NOT being a good mother when she put her family in jeopardy. She was NOT being a good mother putting her health and yours in danger. What if he flips out due to your wife dumping him, starts using again and does something to harm one of your children? Addicts do not think when they act. I speak from experience with my ex. There is a reason he has not seen nor spoken to my daughters for 14 years.

She was NOT being a good teacher by showing poor judgment in her personal life. We rely on teachers to be good examples. Sleeping with an addict in recovery is not showing good judgment.

Not only do you need to be angry about what she did to you and your marriage but the damage she inflicted on your childrens' lives. This will continue to impact you and them for years regardless of whether you R or D.


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> A couple of things,
> 
> 1. Did she do things with him that she won't with you?
> 
> 2. Who paid for the phone and if it was her how did she pay? This is important because it might let you discover any new phones
> 
> 3. Do you have the number of the burner phone? Would you be able to find out if it was assigned to a new replacement phone?


There hasn't been much we haven't done but she did things that I ask for and usually get denied because she doesn't like it. 

She would give him cash and he would pay it

I smashed the phone and sent it to the OM. Didn't think to save the number. The phone cost 17 bucks and you can buy them at Walmart and have it activated that day with no effort.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Tall Average Guy said:


> Except that the entire thing was risky. Having sex with her kids in the house is risky because they could go looking for her at any time. Having sex at her BFs house was risky because she could have gotten up and heard something. Yet she still did at least those two things.
> 
> I know I (and others) have hammered on this, but your logic does not hold up. You want to believe her. And she may be telling the truth. But your lack of any real doubt (you say you are not sure if she is telling the truth but defend her like she is) is a huge blind spot for you.
> 
> As for your questions:
> 
> 
> 
> Consider that you were skeptical nine months ago, but by standing firm she got you to back down.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know? You have the word of a liar. I note that you are skeptical of her stories, yet still believe she is telling the truth. You were skeptical nine months ago, but by standing her ground, she got you to back down.
> 
> One question I do have - has she admitted to anything that you could not verify through other means (texts, call records, other people)? Has she admitted to any bad thing on her own without you being able to verify it? Or has she only admitted the bad things where they could be proven?
> 
> 
> 
> But if she admitted any of these other things, it would be even worse. Have you considered telling her that you doubt her, and giving her the job of showing that you can trust her. Put it on her to reestablish trust.


She knows that I'm not accepting everything she says. I look into almost everything right now. All I am saying here is I don't think she is lying. I'm not sure, she knows I'm not sure and she knows it is on her to earn my trust back. I also told her that she will never have my unconditional trust again. Actually nobody will. 

If she admits to any of the above it will be a big blow, I asked her right from the start not to trickle truth and she seems sincere right now. Any more lies will ruin whatever progress we made in the last 3 weeks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Does she think you can get with other women if she breaks up with you? Was a revenge affair discussed?

Would you reconcile with her if kids are not involved ?


----------



## Dday

TCSRedhead said:


> Speaking as the fWW - she was NOT being a good mother when she put her family in jeopardy. She was NOT being a good mother putting her health and yours in danger. What if he flips out due to your wife dumping him, starts using again and does something to harm one of your children? Addicts do not think when they act. I speak from experience with my ex. There is a reason he has not seen nor spoken to my daughters for 14 years.
> 
> She was NOT being a good teacher by showing poor judgment in her personal life. We rely on teachers to be good examples. Sleeping with an addict in recovery is not showing good judgment.
> 
> Not only do you need to be angry about what she did to you and your marriage but the damage she inflicted on your childrens' lives. This will continue to impact you and them for years regardless of whether you R or D.


I agree during this time she was not the best mother. From the viewpoint that she has put our family at risk and the kids could grow up in 2 households and have to deal with the constant moving around. And when she would sleep out and i was home by myself chasing three kids. I don't think this had any impact on her professional career but we all have our own views on that. 

I am not trying to let the kids know what she did and hopefully they never find out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

warlock07 said:


> Does she think you can get with other women if she breaks up with you? Was a revenge affair discussed?
> 
> Would you reconcile with her if kids are not involved ?


I don't know what she thinks but I'm sure I can. It was brought up but not talked about much. I would never do this to her, especially because I want to stay with her. I do wonder how much fun it would be but I couldn't just use someone else for sex. 

I considered that mostly in the first couple of days after Dday. I didn't want to stay just for the kids. I do love her and the person she was and I think she can be. I hope this makes us stronger but I wish it never happened. I know it won't go away and will be in my mind for the rest of my life. We talked about that and she is worried that she will never make me how happy I deserve to be. I told her it is her job to try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

warlock07 said:


> She was firm on not having an affair either, remember.
> 
> What brutally honest ? You got nothing. She probably told you that she did not even enjoy the sex. Sorry mate! The lies haven't ended. It is absolutely clear that she is trickle truthing you and "protecting" you for getting hurt more. She is even lying about swearing about the kids.
> 
> She will sell what you will buy and she has no reason to tell you the truth because you are dead set on reconciliation because she already made the decision that the " details will hurt you " . There is no dealbreaker for you, so she will try to get away with at little as possible since more revelations will hurt the power balance in the marriage.
> 
> You should tell her that you think she had sex when you and OM were together. And that she did stuff with him that she never offered or did with you. Base your R on these assumptions because they will be less hurtful in the long term.
> 
> *Or tell her that you will have her take a polygraph test*.


This OP will NEVER even say the word polygraph to his unfaithfull wife. It would end this illusion of her telling him the whole truth about what and all that she's done with the OM.

My guess is that the mere mention of a poly to this WS would send her in a tailspin. She would either start spilling the truth right away, or flat out refuse to take one.

Either way, it doesn't matter, I don't believe that he want's to know the truth anymore. It's sad.


----------



## Dday

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> This OP will NEVER even say the word polygraph to his unfaithfull wife. It would end this illusion of her telling him the whole truth about what and all that she's done with the OM.
> 
> My guess is that the mere mention of a poly to this WS would send her in a tailspin. She would either start spilling the truth right away, or flat out refuse to take one.
> 
> Either way, it doesn't matter, I don't believe that he want's to know the truth anymore. It's sad.


I have threatened to use a polygraph. I looked it up and found a place for around $600. If I feel I'm not getting the truth I will use it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NewM

Dday said:


> Brutally honest like giving BJ and swollowed, I get plenty of bjs but never allowed to cum inside her mouth, multiple orgasms, multiple times in one one night, let him go down on her which she always says she hates. I can go on but she told me stuff I didn't want to hear but I asked.


Has she started doing it with you,have you requested her to start doing those with you now?If she was doing it with OM she obviously doesn't hate it,she should start doing all those with you.


----------



## HusbandInPain

Dday said:


> I have threatened to use a polygraph. I looked it up and found a place for around $600. If I feel I'm not getting the truth I will use it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you threatened to make use of the polygraph, exactly how did she react. Did she

A. Express pleasure that you have come up with a way for her tio prove that she has told you the whole story and that you can trust her

B. Express any kind of reluctance or reticence.

The answer above will give you a very good clue as to what you are dealing with.


----------



## NewM

Dday said:


> I have threatened to use a polygraph. I looked it up and found a place for around $600. If I feel I'm not getting the truth I will use it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can tell her that you scheduled polygraph and arrange everything as if you really did arrange it.Then tell her you are divorcing if you find out that any of questions you think she is not truthful.

Don't just threaten her with possibility of using polygraph but make it sound like real plan with time slot already arranged and her having to be ready to go with you at that time.Then see if she decides to change some answers.


----------



## Chaparral

Do not think we are opposed to you reconciling with your wife. The reason you are getting pounded with info is how many times, in thousands of threads, we have seen situations just like yours go off the rails because the bs got it wrong.

Example, 31000 texts mean it was not just sex. It means it was a very very very strong emotional affair. Whether or not they mentioned love or not, that is what they were both believe ing. The Om and your wife are going batsh! T crazy , if not at this moment they will.
Have you figured out how many texts a day that was? I can't remember anyone here finding that many.
8
We are not saying she doesn't want to be with you. However, think how you would feel if you could not see your wife ever again, even after she has done this. That's what they are going through.

You have to be strong enough to bring a gun to a gunfight. Anything less and you lose your family.

Use every tool available to keep them apart and not communicating.
Gps, checking texts (get her a no text phone or one you can see all texts), smart phones can have apps and apps that are deleted to text, games can be used, etc. Vars polygraph. Check out the thread about evidence gathering.

He could try to visit her at school during lunch, before or after school.


----------



## Chaparral

Dday said:


> I have threatened to use a polygraph. I looked it up and found a place for around $600. If I feel I'm not getting the truth I will use it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are many worthless polygraphers. Get a recommendation from nearbylaw enforcement. Tell them a story about needing one for employees.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

chapparal said:


> Example, 31000 texts mean it was not just sex. It means it was a very very very strong emotional affair. Whether or not they mentioned love or not, that is what they were both believe ing. The Om and your wife are going batsh! T crazy , if not at this moment they will.
> *Have you figured out how many texts a day that was? *I can't remember anyone here finding that many.


Oooh, oooh, pick me, pick me!!

Text messages = 31,000

9 months worth of text = 9 * 30 = 270 days

*Average Texts per Day = 31,000 / 270 = 114.81*

Holy sh!t! When did she find time to do her work, be a mother - much less be a wife?


----------



## Decorum

Dday said:


> There were times during the affair *I made her promise on the kids *or stuff like that and she always denied and now *she says she doesn't remember promising on the kids. *
> 
> As for the lying about where it happened I don't think that's a lie only because it would be extremely risky in our bedroom. I said before our door doesn't lock right and the kids do get up sometimes and try to sneak into bed with us.
> 
> Some things in the statement I asked for are:
> 
> She said she never had sex with him while the kids were there during a play date. This includes twice when they slept over. I am skeptical of this but she is standing firm that she never did.
> 
> *She said she never had sex or given him a blow job while me and the OM were together*. I question this as well. One weekend we were at my shore house and he was invited, this was 2 weeks after they had sex for the first time. I know one if the nights I went to bed early (like 1:00am) and she stayed up that night with our friends plus him. I don't know what time she got to bed but I do remember getting shot down in the morning. There were multiple other times / nights we were together and i was never real possessive or kept track where she was. She is firm that this never happened.
> 
> That there are no others that I don't know about. There is one other guy I know she was friendly with in the last 2 years that I questioned. She is firm on this.
> 
> That she didn't do anal with him. It just seems to me that she would of done anything he wanted. She is extremely firm on this.
> 
> There has been no direct contact since Dday with the OM. She says there has not.
> 
> She was brutally honest with most details and events so I think she is telling the truth but I can't be sure. She knows I have very little trust in her right now and that I need to see actions more than words. She has been trying hard and that is what I guess we need right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




So she can remember "never" doing something when she had total opportunity (i.e. BJ to Om when you were there) 
but 
She cant remember "actually" doing something (i.e. swearing on her children), 

Maybe you should have her memory checked by a doctor, I think most mothers would be so ashamed that they swore on their children that they would could never forget it. 


I know how this works, at the time you asked her the question and to swear on her children that she was not having an affair she actually, (in her mind) asked a different question and swore to that, even though it was a lie to you she did not swear against her children.


This is a common rationalization.

She is not able to face this so she denies it, but she remembers.

This is a speculation on my part of course, she may have used some other mental device to get around this and conveniently not remember, but you have an idea of her mental workings as you move forward. How she can justify things.

Do you not expect that this type of mental gymnastics was involved?

This is what her character is capable of, she may be mostly honest at the moment, but she will have to deal with her ability to rationalize in a serious and real way if she wants to become a woman worthy of the chance you are giving her.

*To Reconcile it takes *

*willingness, character, and love*. 

*The willingness comes from true remorsefulness.*

True remorsefulness comes from taking full responsibility for yourself and you actions, and is usually brought about by the consequences fo what we have done.
(This is what most here are concerned in not happening, consequences)

*Character is like modeled clay, its the result of time and pressure (influence), there is no shortcut.* 

Her character has some obvious flaws. She has some hard work to do

*The quality of love is based on character, need , attraction, and commitment.*

She has "need", she may have "attraction" for you, she has come up very short in the other areas. (i.e. Character, and Commitment) 

Dont ignore these issues relating to charcter and commitment. 

We will talk more about this I am sure.

Dday I admire the husband and father you have been up till now, please dont let this ever change that. 

Take care!


----------



## warlock07

Dday said:


> I considered that mostly in the first couple of days after Dday. I didn't want to stay just for the kids. I do love her and the person she was and I think she can be. I hope this makes us stronger *but I wish it never happened.* I know it won't go away and will be in my mind for the rest of my life. We talked about that and she is worried that she will never make me how happy I deserve to be. I told her it is her job to try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




you are acting like it never happened anyway.

Few things to think about. 

Is she attracted to you? Or is she staying for the kids?

Is she reconciling out of guilt? Do you think the relationship can sustained once the guilt goes away?

Do you have dealbreakers? Are you willing to stick to them?

Does she think you will walk away from her(as opposed to "never forgive her")


----------



## Dday

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Oooh, oooh, pick me, pick me!!
> 
> Text messages = 31,000
> 
> 9 months worth of text = 9 * 30 = 270 days
> 
> *Average Texts per Day = 31,000 / 270 = 114.81*
> 
> Holy sh!t! When did she find time to do her work, be a mother - much less be a wife?


It was actually only 7 months the phone was in play
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkonmars

Dday said:


> It was actually only 7 months the phone was in play
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well then it was 147.61 text/day. I guess her class took very long naps!


----------



## LongWalk

chapparal said:


> Do not think we are opposed to you reconciling with your wife. The reason you are getting pounded with info is how many times, in thousands of threads, we have seen situations just like yours go off the rails because the bs got it wrong.
> 
> Example, 31000 texts mean it was not just sex. It means it was a very very very strong emotional affair. Whether or not they mentioned love or not, that is what they were both believe ing. The Om and your wife are going batsh! T crazy , if not at this moment they will.
> Have you figured out how many texts a day that was? I can't remember anyone here finding that many.
> 8
> We are not saying she doesn't want to be with you. However, think how you would feel if you could not see your wife ever again, even after she has done this. That's what they are going through.
> 
> You have to be strong enough to bring a gun to a gunfight. Anything less and you lose your family.
> 
> Use every tool available to keep them apart and not communicating.
> Gps, checking texts (get her a no text phone or one you can see all texts), smart phones can have apps and apps that are deleted to text, games can be used, etc. Vars polygraph. Check out the thread about evidence gathering.
> 
> He could try to visit her at school during lunch, before or after school.


Chapparal's post was right on.

You must have noticed a pattern to much of the advice you're getting. The theme is getting control. The best thing in the OM's life is your wife. He has gotten both fantastic sex and tremendous love. The reason your wife is not with him right now is that she respects what you offer in life. Even in her current confused state she knows that OM cannot provide for your children. She may even realize he is a leech but she loves him nonetheless.

The OM, his sister and your wife are all watching you to find out what the new rules are going to be. OM is not planning to follow your instructions. He is plotting 24/7 on how make contact with your wife, and may already have done so despite NC.

Everyday that your wife goes to work with OM's sister, they may be taking about OM. How is he faring without your wife? OM will be asking his sister how your wife is taking it. If they were mere colleagues it would be bad enough, but they are best friends. There is every likelihood that both OM and your wife are crying on her shoulder. They can even smell and taste each other's tears through her.

OM's sister has not called you up to apologize and make a date to come clean over her role. Ask yourself why that is?

Do you know the principal of the school? You ought to get hold of him/her asap. Don't inform your wife. Catch her in her office while your wife is in class. Tell the principle concisely and zero needy emotional display what happened. Include the unpleasant facts, such as the drinking parties that led to your wife's bad judgment. Request that she seek a transfer for one of the women.

It could be that she will not respond to your request. But you hold the cards. The situation is toxic and if you write a letter to the parents of the children in the classes of your wife and her BF, questioning their fitness, you can be certain the parents will be calling the principle. Infidelity, opiate and alcohol abuse are not what the principle wants associated with her school. She may help you. There may be counseling resources for you wife.

She may also terminate or suspend your wife and her BF. That might seem like a disaster to you. Everyone concerned would be saying that you did something to them. But that is not true, they did something to themselves and had to take the consequences.

Who would have thought DDay could turn out to be such a hard a$$, they'll say. And that is a good thing. The harsher the consequences of fvcking with you are, the less they will. WWBFF will think twice before aiding her brother and best friend from any future contact, for fear of losing her job. Your wife may hate for a moment but she will also respect you more. If she runs away to reunite with OM, you will know that her pledge to make you happy was merely empty words.

Another poster wrote:



> Dday I admire the husband and father you have been up till now, please dont let this ever change that.


I agree with him.:smthumbup:


----------



## Chaparral

Did I get this right? She gave you a bunch of answers but would not swear to it and give you custody if you found out any of it was a lie. She would not sign a statement? How did she explain her refusal?


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> You are right that she is a good liar and could still be lying about stuff.
> 
> I asked her for a written statement on some issues I think she may be lying about and in that statement agree to me having majority custody of the kids if she is caught lying or if she cheats again.
> 
> *I have asked for this for the last few days and haven't got it yet.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Every time I check on this thread the situation gets worse and worse.

What are her excuses for not doing this for you?


----------



## Everafter2013

walkonmars said:


> well then it was 147.61 text/day. I guess her class took very long naps!


Dday,

Been reading/skimming through your thread. Obviously, you love your wife so much and think the world of her. I hope she realizes what she has done and was about to lose. 

Having said that, 147.61 text/day on average. Let's put that into perspective. Discounting the fact that she has stayed over several days with OM and the play dates, let's say she sleeps on average 6 hours a day. That's still 8.17 texts/hour on average. She texted him *every 7.34 minutes on average.* Really think about it...who has that kind of time? Especially a wife with a full time job and kids? When did she have the time to be a good teacher, mother and wife? Do you realize that not only she cheated on you, but she cheated your kids from her attention and time, she cheated her kids at school from her attention and time too. 

I am not saying this as a betrayed woman, I am saying this a mother. I will not appreciate the teacher of my children to be that distracted at work. Please don't kid yourself that she was focus at work when she texted that much for 7 months. And she is a kindergarten teacher, you said? So basically she just let the kids ran around and did whatever they liked because she was too distracted texting OM on her phone??? Saying that she was infatuated is an understatement. It sounds more like an obsession! *She was addicted to an addict* The way she behaved the past 7 months is not what I would call "a good teacher." Sorry to be blunt...but maybe our standards of "good" are different. 

Our standards of what we consider "toxic" are obviously different too. If I were you, not only would I be angry and hurt because of her betrayal, I would ENRAGED because she brought my kids around an addict!!! I do not care what his poison of choice is, I do not care that he is not in prison or stealing for his drugs, he is still a drug user! Even if she did not cheat on me with OM, I would be questioning her friendship with her BFF when the brother is an addict and lives with them. Again, maybe we have different standards when it comes to drugs and addicts. You obviously are more understanding. 

Understandably you refuse to see and admit that she was a distracted teacher and mother at best. She is on your pedestal and you just cannot see her that way since you choose to stay. But what everyone has been trying to tell you is this: the higher on pedestal you put her, the higher the fall. And if that day ever comes, it will hurt more than anything you can ever imagine. So be realistic. You keep saying that your wife (who has been proven to be capable of lying and such deceits) is telling you the truth now. You do not know that. We do not whether she is lying either. But here are FACTS:

1. She did not feel guilty and remorseful enough of what she did to confess to you.

2. Prior to you finding out her burner phone, there was no indication that she was about to break it off with him. 

3. You said your guts telling you that she is not lying. But your guts weren't telling you that she was up to something either. Or maybe your guts did but your love blinded you. YOU DID NOT catch her in her lies because you were investigating. It was PURE dumb luck. So...if I were you, I would be very wary about what my guts were telling me now because obviously my love for her clouded my judgment. 

4. She was cunning enough to use a burner phone. Go to another forum (for cheaters), and you will see that this is a professional cheater 101. 

Nobody is judging you for staying and making it work. But I think most have reminded you that showing her *consequences* of her actions are in order. Since you are not divorcing, so what if she must quit her job? Ask for a transfer? And most definitely, her friendship with BFF is over. That's the LEAST she must do. I'm surprised that she didn't offer that to you. It probably pain you to see her disappointed and sad to lose her job and friendship. But tough...that's the consequences of her actions, so next time she will probably think twice even when you have no idea what she is about to do. 

And again...even without the affair, why are you letting your kids around an addict? Why are you okay with your wife bringing your kids around an addict? Because he is an addict who takes a shower everyday, whose mother owns a big home so he can be a leech all his life? Having betrayed by your spouse is bad enough, but having your spouse betrayed you with a grown man who doesn't work, uses drugs regularly, and lives with his mother and she brings your kids around this toxic person? 
Sorry for her BFF, really....but there is no way I would feel bad enough for her BFF to allow this to continue. Affair or no affair.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

chapparal said:


> Did I get this right? She gave you a bunch of answers but would not swear to it and give you custody if you found out any of it was a lie. She would not sign a statement? How did she explain her refusal?


THIS and the POLY.

And you being prepared to lose her.

That might break the resistance.

You have to understand it is possible you are right, but that the statistics are very much saying something else. So you HAVE to know.


----------



## LongWalk

Everafter2013 is right on when she writes:



> Saying that she was infatuated is an understatement. It sounds more like an obsession! She was addicted to an addict The way she behaved the past 7 months is not what I would call "a good teacher." Sorry to be blunt...but maybe our standards of "good" are different.


What she writes your wife's job is also on the mark.

All comfort that your wife gets from BFF is toxic for your marriage. Her current job is poisonous to your relationship.


----------



## Dday

NewM said:


> Has she started doing it with you,have you requested her to start doing those with you now?If she was doing it with OM she obviously doesn't hate it,she should start doing all those with you.


Some things yes, but it is forced and I know she is thinking of him while doing it or right after. I'm thinking only time and frequency will help fade those memories and thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

HusbandInPain said:


> When you threatened to make use of the polygraph, exactly how did she react. Did she
> 
> A. Express pleasure that you have come up with a way for her tio prove that she has told you the whole story and that you can trust her
> 
> B. Express any kind of reluctance or reticence.
> 
> The answer above will give you a very good clue as to what you are dealing with.


Kind of in between. She wasn't thrilled and excited but willing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Decorum said:


> So she can remember "never" doing something when she had total opportunity (i.e. BJ to Om when you were there)
> but
> She cant remember "actually" doing something (i.e. swearing on her children),
> 
> Maybe you should have her memory checked by a doctor, I think most mothers would be so ashamed that they swore on their children that they would could never forget it.
> 
> 
> I know how this works, at the time you asked her the question and to swear on her children that she was not having an affair she actually, (in her mind) asked a different question and swore to that, even though it was a lie to you she did not swear against her children.
> 
> 
> This is a common rationalization.
> 
> She is not able to face this so she denies it, but she remembers.
> 
> This is a speculation on my part of course, she may have used some other mental device to get around this and conveniently not remember, but you have an idea of her mental workings as you move forward. How she can justify things.
> 
> Do you not expect that this type of mental gymnastics was involved?
> 
> This is what her character is capable of, she may be mostly honest at the moment, but she will have to deal with her ability to rationalize in a serious and real way if she wants to become a woman worthy of the chance you are giving her.
> 
> *To Reconcile it takes *
> 
> *willingness, character, and love*.
> 
> *The willingness comes from true remorsefulness.*
> 
> True remorsefulness comes from taking full responsibility for yourself and you actions, and is usually brought about by the consequences fo what we have done.
> (This is what most here are concerned in not happening, consequences)
> 
> *Character is like modeled clay, its the result of time and pressure (influence), there is no shortcut.*
> 
> Her character has some obvious flaws. She has some hard work to do
> 
> *The quality of love is based on character, need , attraction, and commitment.*
> 
> She has "need", she may have "attraction" for you, she has come up very short in the other areas. (i.e. Character, and Commitment)
> 
> Dont ignore these issues relating to charcter and commitment.
> 
> We will talk more about this I am sure.
> 
> Dday I admire the husband and father you have been up till now, please dont let this ever change that.
> 
> Take care!


Thank you. 

I liked your point on mental gymnastics and that's why I want some stuff written down. At that point it is black and white.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

chapparal said:


> Did I get this right? She gave you a bunch of answers but would not swear to it and give you custody if you found out any of it was a lie. She would not sign a statement? How did she explain her refusal?


She has agreed to do it... Just hasn't yet...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

warlock07 said:


> you are acting like it never happened anyway.
> 
> Few things to think about.
> 
> Is she attracted to you? Or is she staying for the kids?
> 
> Is she reconciling out of guilt? Do you think the relationship can sustained once the guilt goes away?
> 
> Do you have dealbreakers? Are you willing to stick to them?
> 
> Does she think you will walk away from her(as opposed to "never forgive her")


Tough for me to answer what she is thinking. 

I do have deal breakers and if they are broken I would stick to them and walk away. I made this clear to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Everafter2013 said:


> Dday,
> 
> Been reading/skimming through your thread. Obviously, you love your wife so much and think the world of her. I hope she realizes what she has done and was about to lose.
> 
> Having said that, 147.61 text/day on average. Let's put that into perspective. Discounting the fact that she has stayed over several days with OM and the play dates, let's say she sleeps on average 6 hours a day. That's still 8.17 texts/hour on average. She texted him *every 7.34 minutes on average.* Really think about it...who has that kind of time? Especially a wife with a full time job and kids? When did she have the time to be a good teacher, mother and wife? Do you realize that not only she cheated on you, but she cheated your kids from her attention and time, she cheated her kids at school from her attention and time too.
> 
> I am not saying this as a betrayed woman, I am saying this a mother. I will not appreciate the teacher of my children to be that distracted at work. Please don't kid yourself that she was focus at work when she texted that much for 7 months. And she is a kindergarten teacher, you said? So basically she just let the kids ran around and did whatever they liked because she was too distracted texting OM on her phone??? Saying that she was infatuated is an understatement. It sounds more like an obsession! *She was addicted to an addict* The way she behaved the past 7 months is not what I would call "a good teacher." Sorry to be blunt...but maybe our standards of "good" are different.
> 
> Our standards of what we consider "toxic" are obviously different too. If I were you, not only would I be angry and hurt because of her betrayal, I would ENRAGED because she brought my kids around an addict!!! I do not care what his poison of choice is, I do not care that he is not in prison or stealing for his drugs, he is still a drug user! Even if she did not cheat on me with OM, I would be questioning her friendship with her BFF when the brother is an addict and lives with them. Again, maybe we have different standards when it comes to drugs and addicts. You obviously are more understanding.
> 
> Understandably you refuse to see and admit that she was a distracted teacher and mother at best. She is on your pedestal and you just cannot see her that way since you choose to stay. But what everyone has been trying to tell you is this: the higher on pedestal you put her, the higher the fall. And if that day ever comes, it will hurt more than anything you can ever imagine. So be realistic. You keep saying that your wife (who has been proven to be capable of lying and such deceits) is telling you the truth now. You do not know that. We do not whether she is lying either. But here are FACTS:
> 
> 1. She did not feel guilty and remorseful enough of what she did to confess to you.
> 
> 2. Prior to you finding out her burner phone, there was no indication that she was about to break it off with him.
> 
> 3. You said your guts telling you that she is not lying. But your guts weren't telling you that she was up to something either. Or maybe your guts did but your love blinded you. YOU DID NOT catch her in her lies because you were investigating. It was PURE dumb luck. So...if I were you, I would be very wary about what my guts were telling me now because obviously my love for her clouded my judgment.
> 
> 4. She was cunning enough to use a burner phone. Go to another forum (for cheaters), and you will see that this is a professional cheater 101.
> 
> Nobody is judging you for staying and making it work. But I think most have reminded you that showing her *consequences* of her actions are in order. Since you are not divorcing, so what if she must quit her job? Ask for a transfer? And most definitely, her friendship with BFF is over. That's the LEAST she must do. I'm surprised that she didn't offer that to you. It probably pain you to see her disappointed and sad to lose her job and friendship. But tough...that's the consequences of her actions, so next time she will probably think twice even when you have no idea what she is about to do.
> 
> And again...even without the affair, why are you letting your kids around an addict? Why are you okay with your wife bringing your kids around an addict? Because he is an addict who takes a shower everyday, whose mother owns a big home so he can be a leech all his life? Having betrayed by your spouse is bad enough, but having your spouse betrayed you with a grown man who doesn't work, uses drugs regularly, and lives with his mother and she brings your kids around this toxic person?
> Sorry for her BFF, really....but there is no way I would feel bad enough for her BFF to allow this to continue. Affair or no affair.


I am not trying to defend what she did but I like to put things into perspective as well. 150 texts a day that take around 10-15 seconds each or let's call it 20 to be safe will take around 50 minutes. Yes I wish that was time she was with me or our kids but I doubt it affected her job. 

I guess I have a different view point than everyone else with the drug issue. My cousin is addicted to the same type of drugs, and hasn't been able to stay clean for longer than 7 months. Even when he is using it would be tough to notice. He's not a bad guy, just has a bad problem that has ruined him financially and legally. I also worked with someone who became a close friend that ended up having the same addiction. We found out during a mandatory drug test for a injury he was using opiates. We put him on a random drug testing program and 2 years later he tested positive again. I had to fire him, but he was one of the best workers I have ever had. He was also a good guy with a bad problem. That's why when I met the OM I had no reservations about his past drug use. 

Your other points are all correct, she was cunning, she wasn't ready to stop the A, I was "lucky" to find the burner phone. I did have gut feelings things weren't right but I was blinded by my love of her and blinded by my unconditional trust. I can promise that that won't happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Dday said:


> Kind of in between. She wasn't thrilled and excited but willing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The golden rule is"Fake it till you make it" , it works.


----------



## Chaparral

Oral sex is tricky. You basically need to be taught how to do it by your partner or a really good sex guide. Maybe your technique needs fine tuning. Lol I accidently learned about the g spot on a lesbian website that popped up after reading an article about Herodotus.


----------



## Shaggy

Dday said:


> Some things yes, but it is forced and I know she is thinking of him while doing it or right after. I'm thinking only time and frequency will help fade those memories and thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's important for you to repeatedly do those things with her that she gave specally to him because it reestablishes your claim/bond with her by tasking away what was special for him.

It's not about competing, or about we'll he hit it, it want it too. It's entirely about eroding his special place and special shared things.

One thing about the poly. You said you threatened. My advice is never threaten because it weakens your position because it either locks your into a course of action, or it makes you look indecisive if you don't follow through. Like dealing with children, making threats is a bad way to manage.

Instead of threats only say what you are going to do as a fact and do it. So only the poly, you would say, "I've selected a polygrapher and I have booked it for next Tuesday at 4pm. You need to arrange a baby sitter, for 2:30. I will go with you and we will leave at 3 to go there together."


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> Some things yes, but it is forced and I know she is thinking of him while doing it or right after. I'm thinking *only time and frequency will help fade those memories and thoughts*?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And lack of contact with other man and all that is associated with him. The longer he is in her head, the longer it will take for her to get over him.

She spent an enormous amount of time and energy on the other man. What does she do with that time and energy now? Does she fill the void with you or with thoughts of the other man? Has she been texting you more since this happened?

As a betrayed spouse, there was a lot she did with other man that she didn't do with you, at least while the affair was going on, and I'm not just talking about sex. Texts. Conversations. Time spent together. Also sex.

One of the hard parts about reconciliation is to decide which of the things she did with other man are things that you should do or not do.

My advice is to disregard what she did with other man in your decision-making. If you want more texts from her, tell her. If you want a different kind of sex from her, tell her. Whatever it is you want, tell her. Probably what you (and the rest of us) should have done right from the get-go.

My understanding is that your wife still is in touch every single day with other man's sister, so your wife still is getting her dose of other man every single day. Even if the best friend says nothing at all about the other man, that still gives your wife some information. Surely any BIG news the best friend would share with your wife, so when NOTHING is said it just means that NOTHING has changed. If other man had a serious girlfriend, your wife would find out from her best friend. If he got engaged, got really sick, had any major accomplishment or major failure, your wife would find out. So she is getting vicarious info about the other man even IF nothing is said. Truth is, as you have posted, best friend is telling your wife about other man. That he is going to a ballgame. That he can't go to a birthday party. Who knows what else, but obviously his name is not off-limits in their conversations.

Starting to feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but for the sake of your kids, if you want to save your family, you should take all possible actions to prevent the reoccurence of this affair.


----------



## Shaggy

About the poly. They do yes no type questions that have clear answers, not leading questions.

So 

1. Have you had sex with anyone other the OM and your husband since you got married
2. Have you had other affairs
3. Have you had contact with OM since the night you were caught
4. Are you planning on continuing to be with OM
5. Has OM contacted you since discovery
6. IS you BFF passing messages between you?
7. Did BFF know about the affair
8. Dd anyone else know about the affair before discovery
9. Do you have a new secret phone?
10. Did you do xx? Sex act with him?
11. Did the OM have sex in your bed?
12. Did you have sex with the OM and then have sex with your husband later?

See black and white questions


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> And lack of contact with other man and all that is associated with him. The longer he is in her head, the longer it will take for her to get over him.
> 
> She spent an enormous amount of time and energy on the other man. What does she do with that time and energy now? Does she fill the void with you or with thoughts of the other man? Has she been texting you more since this happened?
> 
> As a betrayed spouse, there was a lot she did with other man that she didn't do with you, at least while the affair was going on, and I'm not just talking about sex. Texts. Conversations. Time spent together. Also sex.
> 
> One of the hard parts about reconciliation is to decide which of the things she did with other man are things that you should do or not do.
> 
> My advice is to disregard what she did with other man in your decision-making. If you want more texts from her, tell her. If you want a different kind of sex from her, tell her. Whatever it is you want, tell her. Probably what you (and the rest of us) should have done right from the get-go.
> 
> My understanding is that your wife still is in touch every single day with other man's sister, so your wife still is getting her dose of other man every single day. Even if the best friend says nothing at all about the other man, that still gives your wife some information. Surely any BIG news the best friend would share with your wife, so when NOTHING is said it just means that NOTHING has changed. If other man had a serious girlfriend, your wife would find out from her best friend. If he got engaged, got really sick, had any major accomplishment or major failure, your wife would find out. So she is getting vicarious info about the other man even IF nothing is said. Truth is, as you have posted, best friend is telling your wife about other man. That he is going to a ballgame. That he can't go to a birthday party. Who knows what else, but obviously his name is not off-limits in their conversations.
> 
> Starting to feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but for the sake of your kids, if you want to save your family, you should take all possible actions to prevent the reoccurence of this affair.


All of her extra time and energy has been coming to me. We have been talking/texting more than ever and even spending more time with the kids together. 

We have talked about the OM and the BF in the last day or so and the conversations are tough. We have MC on Tuesday so I will be bringing this situation up then to get an outsiders view on it. I am told that the BF doesn't bring up the OM at all and she is trying to avoid it at all cost. They did talk about the bday party and when I was going to the phillies game she gave my wife a "look" and my wife asked if he was going too and she just nodded. She did tell her what section I was sitting in so he could avoid me but I understand she did that for my benefit as much as his. My wife new the OM had a partial season ticket plan so she knew that was a possibility.

I asked her to look long term at the situation as the kids get older, how do you explain that uncle OM can't come to his bday party because my kids will be there. Or if the BF gets married, there is no way we would be going to the wedding when he is going to be there. Every time I see her she will be associated with her brother and give me triggers. I understand what you guys are saying and I do agree that this is a toxic situation more so in the future than right now. I don't think the BF is relaying messages or contributing to the A, although she could and I hear your concerns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

You tell them he is a dope addict and sex fiend with low morals and they can never be around him. See......the truth almost always works best.


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> They did talk about the bday party and when I was going to the phillies game *she gave my wife a "look" and my wife asked if he was going too and she just nodded.* She did tell her what section I was sitting in so he could avoid me but I understand she did that for my benefit as much as his. _Posted via Mobile Device_


This doesn't sound realistic. Like it's exactly what you want to hear. Same as the lies she told before. 

If your marriage and family are important to you, why take a chance?

Are you afraid your wife would choose her best friend over you?


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> I* asked her to look long term at the situation as the kids get older, how do you explain that uncle OM can't come to his bday party because my kids will be there. Or if the BF gets married, there is no way we would be going to the wedding when he is going to be there. Every time I see her she will be associated with her brother and give me triggers.* I understand what you guys are saying and I do agree that this is a toxic situation more so in the future than right now. I don't think the BF is relaying messages or contributing to the A, although she could and I hear your concerns.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*What was your wife's response to this?*

Are you trying to persuade your wife to give up the best friend and your wife is resisting?

Can you be more direct in your answers as to where your wife stands on this situation, and where you stand? Who is it that doesn't want to cut out the best friend? Your wife? You? Both?


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> *I guess I have a different view point than everyone else with the drug issue.* My cousin is addicted to the same type of drugs, and hasn't been able to stay clean for longer than 7 months. Even when he is using it would be tough to notice. *He's not a bad guy, just has a bad problem *that has ruined him financially and legally. *I also worked with someone* who became a close friend that ended up having the same addiction. We found out during a mandatory drug test for a injury he was using opiates. We put him on a random drug testing program and 2 years later he tested positive again. I had to fire him, but *he was one of the best workers I have ever had*. He was *also a good guy with a bad problem*. That's why when I met the OM I had no reservations about his past drug use. _Posted via Mobile Device_


We have almost exactly the same viewpoint on this. I had close friends who were addicted. I had co-workers who were functioning alcoholics. Good workers, nice people, bad problem.

They could go stretches without use, or they could seem like they have it under control, but over a long period of time, they inevitably did some pretty stupid things. Stole. Embezzled. Did other drugs. Gambled. Engaged in some pretty risky sexual behavior. Associated with some pretty unsavory people. Definitely brought that risk into the lives of the people they associated with, their friends, family, and co-workers.

This guy you are talking about carried on an affair with your wife, and you were his "friend," too. That alone makes him a bad guy. Two years on the same methadone program, no job, no contribution to the family, AND he has a partial season-ticket plan for the Phillies? Your wife had to give him cash for the burner phone, but he can find money for the partial-season ticket plan?

What is so good about this guy?


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> I am not trying to defend what she did but I like to put things into perspective as well. *150 texts a day that take around 10-15 seconds each or let's call it 20 to be safe will take around 50 minutes. *Yes I wish that was time she was with me or our kids but I doubt it affected her job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't really believe that it was only 10-15 seconds each, do you? What about the thought that went into figuring out what to text? The time spent reading his response and savoring it? Then coming up with something to text back?

It's OK to try to reconcile, but I think you will have a better chance if you stick with reality and not look at everything in the best possible light.


----------



## LongWalk

> My understanding is that your wife still is in touch every single day with other man's sister, so your wife still is getting her dose of other man every single day. Even if the best friend says nothing at all about the other man, that still gives your wife some information. Surely any BIG news the best friend would share with your wife, so when NOTHING is said it just means that NOTHING has changed. If other man had a serious girlfriend, your wife would find out from her best friend. If he got engaged, got really sick, had any major accomplishment or major failure, your wife would find out. So she is getting vicarious info about the other man even IF nothing is said. Truth is, as you have posted, best friend is telling your wife about other man. That he is going to a ballgame. That he can't go to a birthday party. Who knows what else, but obviously his name is not off-limits in their conversations.


Will Kane makes sense here. The BFF is a trigger for your wife. There is no reason to believe that the she has broken off relations with her brother and since she and your wife are very close they probably talk about things that they would not share with anyone else. Men and women tell best friends shı† they would never dream of telling their spouses.

You place great weight on the tip off regarding the ball game, but wasn't it in the interests all to avoid you meeting there by accident. That was no great favor.

Another grim thought. Is everyone on the OM's side now encouraging him to quit drugs, get a job so that he can put himself in position to contend for your wife's affections? If he managed to get a job, would his sister pass this fact on to your wife? If asked his sister to tell your wife that he has pulled himself together thanks to her love, how would that make your wife feel?


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> *What was your wife's response to this?*
> 
> Are you trying to persuade your wife to give up the best friend and your wife is resisting?
> 
> Can you be more direct in your answers as to where your wife stands on this situation, and where you stand? Who is it that doesn't want to cut out the best friend? Your wife? You? Both?


I don't know where I stand but I am agreeing that it makes the most sense to give up the friendship. She is against this and doesn't even want to consider it an option. She doesn't disagree with my reasoning but she doesn't think she should be punished for what her brother and my wife did. I am also friends with her and until I get to talk to her I'm not sure how it is going to play out. 

She won't choose her over me/us but I don't want her to be miserable and ultimately end up in the same position we were for the last 2 years. If she quits a job that she loves, loses her best friend and I am constantly tracking her and keeping tabs I don't see how she could be happy. If she's not happy then I won't be. Yes she did a terrible terrible thing, the worst she could of ever done, but since I am trying to R I obviously want us both to be happy. 

I know the friendship puts her and me at an extra risk and I don't want that. I don't want the triggers every time we see her. I don't want the future fights about hanging out with her, bday parties, weddings, communion parties or whatever event the OM might be going to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> We have almost exactly the same viewpoint on this. I had close friends who were addicted. I had co-workers who were functioning alcoholics. Good workers, nice people, bad problem.
> 
> They could go stretches without use, or they could seem like they have it under control, but over a long period of time, they inevitably did some pretty stupid things. Stole. Embezzled. Did other drugs. Gambled. Engaged in some pretty risky sexual behavior. Associated with some pretty unsavory people. Definitely brought that risk into the lives of the people they associated with, their friends, family, and co-workers.
> 
> This guy you are talking about carried on an affair with your wife, and you were his "friend," too. That alone makes him a bad guy. Two years on the same methadone program, no job, no contribution to the family, AND he has a partial season-ticket plan for the Phillies? Your wife had to give him cash for the burner phone, but he can find money for the partial-season ticket plan?
> 
> What is so good about this guy?


I'm not saying he is a good guy. What I was saying was I was ok with my kids going over there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> You don't really believe that it was only 10-15 seconds each, do you? What about the thought that went into figuring out what to text? The time spent reading his response and savoring it? Then coming up with something to text back?
> 
> It's OK to try to reconcile, but I think you will have a better chance if you stick with reality and not look at everything in the best possible light.


I actually just timed her when she didn't know. She sent 4 messages and received 3 in 45 seconds just now. They were with her other friends but that is an average of about 6.5 seconds per text. I'm trying to keep it as real as possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TimesOfChange

Dday said:


> I don't know where I stand but I am agreeing that it makes the most sense to give up the friendship. She is against this and doesn't even want to consider it an option. She doesn't disagree with my reasoning but she doesn't think she should be punished for what her brother and my wife did. I am also friends with her and until I get to talk to her I'm not sure how it is going to play out.
> 
> She won't choose her over me/us but I don't want her to be miserable and ultimately end up in the same position we were for the last 2 years. If she quits a job that she loves, loses her best friend and I am constantly tracking her and keeping tabs I don't see how she could be happy. If she's not happy then I won't be. Yes she did a terrible terrible thing, the worst she could of ever done, but since I am trying to R I obviously want us both to be happy.
> 
> I know the friendship puts her and me at an extra risk and I don't want that. I don't want the triggers every time we see her. I don't want the future fights about hanging out with her, bday parties, weddings, communion parties or whatever event the OM might be going to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bro, you are to soft! Man up! She hasn't given a damn about you and you still want her to be happy ?!:scratchhead: Wake up, i tried the same and it made things only worse.
Your word should be law from now on, period!


----------



## sunshinetoday

She can not stay friends with the OM sister. Can not. That is it. Certain things change forever once someone cheats. This has to be one of them. My opinion only. But I speak from experience on both sides of this issue. Good luck.


----------



## Will_Kane

Will_Kane said:


> Actually, not all have been implemented. *No contact has not been implemented.* Your wife still is best friends with AND works with other man's sister, who lives in the same house as other man. So your wife still gets daily updates on other man.
> 
> What is your definition of "love"?
> 
> How is that definition different than "feelings" (the way your wife used "feelings")?
> 
> I understand that feelings could be anger, hate, love - but that is not how the word is used in day-to-day conversation.
> 
> You are making a mistake by leaving the door to the other man open.
> 
> Look at the first post in this thread, where the cheater says she stays in touch with her friend JUST so she can keep up on what the other man is doing.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/71342-need-advice-other-ws-withdrawal.html


Have you looked at this thread?

How much of your wife's friendship is based on Other Man and how much is based on Best Friend?

Cheaters fight like hell to stay in contact with their affair partner. Yours is no different.

_Okay, so I am a WS and have had NC (sorta) for 2 months. I haven't actually talked with OM but have continued contact with OM wife. *I've decided to cut that "friendship" off since I know my main reason for staying in touch is to fish for info*.​_


----------



## Suspecting

Dday said:


> Oh yea, there were 18000+ sent messages and 13000+ received
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where did you get this information, from the burner phone? Can you confirm the texts are from nine month time period?

If you count you said 20$ worth of texting for a month. 18000/9 months = 2000 texts per month. Let's say 0.05$ a text? 2000*0.05$ = 100$ per month. Doesn't quite add up.


----------



## Shaggy

Dude many people sell houses and move states due to affairs.

Imagine the impact to yours kids that a D would have.

Dumping a friend and a job is pretty minor to those things.


----------



## JCD

Dday said:


> I don't know where I stand but I am agreeing that it makes the most sense to give up the friendship. She is against this and doesn't even want to consider it an option. She doesn't disagree with my reasoning but she doesn't think she should be punished for what her brother and my wife did. I am also friends with her and until I get to talk to her I'm not sure how it is going to play out.
> 
> She won't choose her over me/us but I don't want her to be miserable and ultimately end up in the same position we were for the last 2 years. If she quits a job that she loves, loses her best friend and I am constantly tracking her and keeping tabs I don't see how she could be happy. If she's not happy then I won't be. Yes she did a terrible terrible thing, the worst she could of ever done, but since I am trying to R I obviously want us both to be happy.
> 
> I know the friendship puts her and me at an extra risk and I don't want that. I don't want the triggers every time we see her. I don't want the future fights about hanging out with her, bday parties, weddings, communion parties or whatever event the OM might be going to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a bit of faulty thinking. Losing THIS best friend will not make her unhappy forever. And no one said she should quit her job. We said she should transfer. Well...some of us said transfer.

IF she chooses to *stay*miserable and resentful over losing THIS friend, that is her personal choice.

OR...she could choose to get over it as the price she has to pay for her adultery. But this decision is on *HER*. Don't make it your responsibility. She is responsible for her own happiness...and resentments.

Additionally, her friend should have no say on what she does or does not deserve. She knew something funny was going on...and did nothing. No warnings. A question for her is that is her friendship more important than YOUR marriage. That she says this says loads about her character.

Two things I am noticing.

First, it's been DAYS since your D Day and you still haven't found the hour or two to have this supposedly critical conversation with this woman. I'm thinking of this word. It starts with a P- and ends in a -rocrastination. Can you guess it?

Second, you are bending over backwards to make this as PAINLESS for her as possible. God forbid she loses anything or feels bad at all!

Tell me: were you planning on NEVER moving ever again just so she could keep this friend? Were you planning on seeing her FOREVER? So...if circumstances were right, with a good job offer elsewhere or a necessary family move, you'd lose her anyway.

Well circumstances are VERY WRONG. 

But do what you got to do. I don't think it will work, but Godspeed.


----------



## JCD

Let me say this. It takes seconds to post a text. This only took me 15 seconds. Less with a keyboard.

It wasn't that big of a time suck.


----------



## Suspecting

JCD said:


> Let me say this. It takes seconds to post a text. This only took me 15 seconds. Less with a keyboard.
> 
> It wasn't that big of a time suck.


What about the cost? The OP said it was 20$ worth of texting per month.


----------



## bfree

Dday,

You are getting some great advice in this thread so I have not added my opinion....until now.

Have you looked at any other threads here on TAM? Have you read threads in the Considering Divorce section? The Going Through Divorce section? Can you please, or anyone else posting in this thread, point me to ONE CASE where the wayward spouse has been able to keep any connection to the AP and successfully reconcile? By allowing (and yes it is you who is allowing it) her to maintain any contact with the sister of her lover you are not only seriously jeopardizing the possibility for a successful reconciliation but you are all but guaranteeing a failed reconciliation. Continued contact with anyone associated with her affair keeps the affair alive in her mind at the very least. Regardless of how she is acting right now she will continue to pull away from you simply because she cannot maintain feelings for you and re-experience the feelings from her affair. She doesn't even need to have direct contact with her lover. She will relive all the pleasure of her affair through his sister by proxy. Even if her friend is totally on your side and helps you to block the affair in the future she is an impediment to a successful reconciliation. Every time your wife talks to her she is still having an affair. Every time your wife goes to her house she is having sex with her lover. Every time she talks to her friend via text, Facebook or any other method your wife is reliving the excitement of illicit love. Your case is not unique in any way. It doesn't matter how nice or smart or loving your wife is. It doesn't matter how good a mother she is or was or will be. It doesn't matter how good a teacher she has been or can be. She is a woman and a human being. She is susceptible to all the weaknesses that we all are. She is following the same patterns that all waywards follow. The sad reality here is that we all can see what is happening and we all can predict what is going to happen. Because unlike you, we have all seen it and experienced it before. Some of us were betrayed spouses. Some of us were wayward spouses. We don't get paid for being here. We don't get any vicarious thrills from reliving our own pain and anguish. We don't enjoy watching others go through the same crap we had to deal with. Ignore the advice you are freely being offered at your own peril. Your wife made the decision to put your marriage in jeopardy. This decision is all yours.


----------



## Dday

Suspecting said:


> Where did you get this information, from the burner phone? Can you confirm the texts are from nine month time period?
> 
> If you count you said 20$ worth of texting for a month. 18000/9 months = 2000 texts per month. Let's say 0.05$ a text? 2000*0.05$ = 100$ per month. Doesn't quite add up.


Yes I got the total amount of text from the burner phone. It was actually 7 months. I didn't look into the costs, she just said it was around 20 a month for unlimited texting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> Have you looked at this thread?
> 
> How much of your wife's friendship is based on Other Man and how much is based on Best Friend?
> 
> Cheaters fight like hell to stay in contact with their affair partner. Yours is no different.
> 
> _Okay, so I am a WS and have had NC (sorta) for 2 months. I haven't actually talked with OM but have continued contact with OM wife. *I've decided to cut that "friendship" off since I know my main reason for staying in touch is to fish for info*.​_


Yes I read that other thread and I have talked to wife about her wanting to go back to him and the withdrawal. She says she has no desire "right now" and wants to concentrate on us. She told him that she loved him a lot and probably after the first time they had sex. So for 7 months she was in love with him or at least told him that. I asked her several times and accused her of still talking to him since she wasn't showing much withdrawal even though I had no evidence. 

She was friends for a couple years before the A happened, we just never went to her house until last summer and the kids started having play dates.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Dday, suppose the sister was a male buddy of your family. Would you still think he was your pal if his druggie brother had an affair with your wife, knew about it and did not tell you? I'll bet you'd tell the SOB to never show his face around you again for such a stab in the back.

Given the gravity of the situation, how is that the sister, who is also friends with you, has not rushed over to apologize to you in person? What kind of friend would ignore the pain you are going through, knowing that they shared some responsibility. At the very least she concealed the affair from you. Aren't curious to know why?

When your wife was texting day and night it is absolutely inconceivable that the BFF did not know to whom she was texting. When best friend and brother fell in love surely discovered it early on. When they were sneaking off to have sex the sister was the babysitter.

Do you think the sister was happy when she saw her best friend and brother so happy together?


----------



## Acabado

The fact she doesn't want to "sacrifice", tolerate this loss after what she did, which for everyone with half a brain is more than obvious, is a bad bad sign.
As a matter of fact she should be the one to take the initiative instead of leraving you - again - in the position to chose between enforcing boundaires/giving consequences and make her resentful.

She's the one who jeopardized her job, her friendship, her childrens friendship. She can't be deluded about, ignore it. She should take that burden from your shoulders.

Please, don't stop yourself of asking her about what they talk at work every time you trigger. Hopely she will conclude on her own this situation is not fair for you and dangerous for her family.


----------



## Dday

JCD said:


> This is a bit of faulty thinking. Losing THIS best friend will not make her unhappy forever. And no one said she should quit her job. We said she should transfer. Well...some of us said transfer.
> 
> IF she chooses to *stay*miserable and resentful over losing THIS friend, that is her personal choice.
> 
> OR...she could choose to get over it as the price she has to pay for her adultery. But this decision is on *HER*. Don't make it your responsibility. She is responsible for her own happiness...and resentments.
> 
> Additionally, her friend should have no say on what she does or does not deserve. She knew something funny was going on...and did nothing. No warnings. A question for her is that is her friendship more important than YOUR marriage. That she says this says loads about her character.
> 
> Two things I am noticing.
> 
> First, it's been DAYS since your D Day and you still haven't found the hour or two to have this supposedly critical conversation with this woman. I'm thinking of this word. It starts with a P- and ends in a -rocrastination. Can you guess it?
> 
> Second, you are bending over backwards to make this as PAINLESS for her as possible. God forbid she loses anything or feels bad at all!
> 
> Tell me: were you planning on NEVER moving ever again just so she could keep this friend? Were you planning on seeing her FOREVER? So...if circumstances were right, with a good job offer elsewhere or a necessary family move, you'd lose her anyway.
> 
> Well circumstances are VERY WRONG.
> 
> But do what you got to do. I don't think it will work, but Godspeed.


I'm not really thinking about moving. Especially far away. I have worked at the same company for 17 years and won't give that up. 

I do procrastinate, that's a fact. I could have the conversation on the phone but I would much rather have it in person. Plus I have been spending all of my free time with my wife or kids. 

They haven't been together besides at school since Dday, I don't know how close their relationship could be moving forward anyway. Their will be no GNO with her and obviously no play dates at her house. It's just tough for me to give her an ultimatum of NC with her friend when I can't control what happens at school. 

As for her transferring, she would have to switch grades. She is a special education kindergarten teacher as is her friend. The district only has one kindergarten building and changing schools isn't an option. She loves working with the young kids and I'm not going to force her to change that. It is just a impossible situation for me here and I can't win with any decision. 

I tell her no more friend and to change grades she is miserable and we get divorced. 

I tell her it is ok to be friends and she pushes boundaries over time and ends up seeing/talking to OM and rekindling the A and we are divorced

She might get over and accept that giving up her job and friend were needed to save our marriage. 

The friend could be on my side and never talk about the OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Acabado said:


> The fact she doesn't want to "sacrifice", tolerate this loss after what she did, which for everyone with half a brain is more than obvious, is a bad bad sign.
> As a matter of fact she should be the one to take the initiative instead of leraving you - again - in the position to chose between enforcing boundaires/giving consequences and make her resentful.
> 
> She's the one who jeopardized her job, her friendship, her childrens friendship. She can't be deluded about, ignore it. She should take that burden from your shoulders.
> 
> Please, don't stop yourself of asking her about what they talk at work every time you trigger. Hopely she will conclude on her own this situation is not fair for you and dangerous for her family.


I agree with you. I am hoping she makes this decision herself. I'm hoping the MC will also help with this, our appointment is Tuesday morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Dday, suppose the sister was a male buddy of your family. Would you still think he was your pal if his druggie brother had an affair with your wife, knew about it and did not tell you? I'll bet you'd tell the SOB to never show his face around you again for such a stab in the back.
> 
> Given the gravity of the situation, how is that the sister, who is also friends with you, has not rushed over to apologize to you in person? What kind of friend would ignore the pain you are going through, knowing that they shared some responsibility. At the very least she concealed the affair from you. Aren't curious to know why?
> 
> When your wife was texting day and night it is absolutely inconceivable that the BFF did not know to whom she was texting. When best friend and brother fell in love surely discovered it early on. When they were sneaking off to have sex the sister was the babysitter.
> 
> Do you think the sister was happy when she saw her best friend and brother so happy together?


According to my wife they hid this from everyone. Nothing was done until the sister would go to bed. I don't see how she didn't have a good idea but I can see not knowing for sure. I do wish she would of brought it to my attention but then again she is much closer to my wife than me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Is OM up n cheaterville.com yet? Put him there today.

Get that poly. Frankly her post affair reaction isn't adding up. She put a lot of effort into him. A lot, texting, finding ways to see him, charging the burner phone, and hiding it all from you.

For 7 months that has been a major part of her daily routine. Each and every day, and she just stopped cold just like that? No withdrawal, no extra time on her hands?

When did she text him

Where did she go to do it?

Etc.


----------



## walkonmars

Dday said:


> ...I don't want her to be miserable ...I don't see how she could be happy. If she's not happy then I won't be.


Very bad reasoning. By this standard you should have let her keep seeing OM. That made her happy. She wasn't miserable. If she's happy - you're happy right. 

WRONG.


----------



## Hicks

Dday said:


> I don't know where I stand but I am agreeing that it makes the most sense to give up the friendship. She is against this and doesn't even want to consider it an option. She doesn't disagree with my reasoning but she doesn't think she should be punished for what her brother and my wife did. I am also friends with her and until I get to talk to her I'm not sure how it is going to play out.
> 
> She won't choose her over me/us but I don't want her to be miserable and ultimately end up in the same position we were for the last 2 years. If she quits a job that she loves, loses her best friend and I am constantly tracking her and keeping tabs I don't see how she could be happy. If she's not happy then I won't be. Yes she did a terrible terrible thing, the worst she could of ever done, but since I am trying to R I obviously want us both to be happy.
> 
> I know the friendship puts her and me at an extra risk and I don't want that. I don't want the triggers every time we see her. I don't want the future fights about hanging out with her, bday parties, weddings, communion parties or whatever event the OM might be going to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's the thing. All the rules you ran in your marriage up until this point did not work for you. Where did they lead? A marriage where a friend is more important than a husband is not a marriage that will function. A marriage and family where a job is more important than the marriage will not function. The rules you lived by where you want your wife to be happy, and have these sources of satisfaction outsiide the family unit just don't work.

You are trying to be too nice. Your purpose as a husband in your marriage is to provide fulfillment to your wife to such a degree that she does not need it from girlfriends or a job. You are making decisions within a paradigm of your old (dramatically non successful) marriage... Your marriage really must change in a dramatic way for it to be successful in the future. In that future state your wife gets the bulk of her fulfillment and happiness in her life from her marriage and her family. Friends are assets but never come in front of the family and husband. Same goes for jobs... Jobs are to improve your family and marriage, not to provide individual fulfillment outside the context of the marriage and family.

By forcing her to quit her job and forcing her to stop being friends with this lady... You then have to fill the voids that this creates.. So, you say she will not be happy without her friend and job, that is true in the context where your life is not set up so that these things come from her husband, her family, her marriage, and these other external things are enhancements /assets to that... But the new marriage you two create, if successful, will provide all these things you are afraid she will miss... 

Hope this makes sense.


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> Is OM up n cheaterville.com yet? Put him there today.
> 
> Get that poly. Frankly her post affair reaction isn't adding up. She put a lot of effort into him. A lot, texting, finding ways to see him, charging the burner phone, and hiding it all from you.
> 
> For 7 months that has been a major part of her daily routine. Each and every day, and she just stopped cold just like that? No withdrawal, no extra time on her hands?
> 
> When did she text him
> 
> Where did she go to do it?
> 
> Etc.


We have been spending a lot of time together and with the kids. Definitely a big change from the past 2 years. 

I think some texts were from school, but most were probably from home. I was getting annoyed that when she got home from work she would be upstairs for 30-40 minutes. Yea she was putting kids stuff away, getting pjs out for the night and clothes for the next day. It just was too much and I was questioning what she was doing, checking her phone for who she was talking to but obv didn't find the other phone. And then at night I would be able to tell if she was going to sleep or if I had a chance to have sex. This is an area I know I messed up and will change, if she was going right to sleep I would stay downstairs, watch sports or play video games. I'm sure she texted him every time I was downstairs at night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Dday, you have a positive character trait. You believe the best of people. You can go far with this. Trusting people are often repaid in kind because people want to live up to the positive image attributed to them. It is hard for you to embrace fearfulness and suspicion as a mind set; that's not your style. But the shock what has happened has caused you become profoundly more questioning. Your wife's affair has got you on the Internet talking about all sorts crazy stuff.

Who would have thought you have to consider bugging your wife with a VAR? Tracking her with GPS? Worrying about STDs and drugs? Who could have imagined that you would have feel anxiety about baseball games and birthday parties?

So far this is a nightmare with no end in sight. How much more can you endure? It must be so heavy, trying to make so many people happy. I am amazed that you don't give up and yet I am afraid that if your wife relapses, you'll blame yourself.


----------



## JCD

Dday said:


> I'm not really thinking about moving. Especially far away. I have worked at the same company for 17 years and won't give that up.
> 
> I do procrastinate, that's a fact. I could have the conversation on the phone but I would much rather have it in person. Plus I have been spending all of my free time with my wife or kids.
> 
> They haven't been together besides at school since Dday, I don't know how close their relationship could be moving forward anyway. Their will be no GNO with her and obviously no play dates at her house. It's just tough for me to give her an ultimatum of NC with her friend when I can't control what happens at school.
> 
> As for her transferring, she would have to switch grades. She is a special education kindergarten teacher as is her friend. The district only has one kindergarten building and changing schools isn't an option. She loves working with the young kids and I'm not going to force her to change that. It is just a impossible situation for me here and I can't win with any decision.
> 
> I tell her no more friend and to change grades she is miserable and we get divorced.
> 
> I tell her it is ok to be friends and she pushes boundaries over time and ends up seeing/talking to OM and rekindling the A and we are divorced
> 
> She might get over and accept that giving up her job and friend were needed to save our marriage.
> 
> The friend could be on my side and never talk about the OM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I wasn't saying to move, only that if your work offered you a promotion if you transfered, would you REALLY turn it down just because of this woman friend? Would your wife allow you to turn it down? REALLY?

I doubt it.

This life change is no different than the life change your wife has subjected you too. She got demoted from faithful spouse to cheating wife. She needs to move on with her life and that new life doesn't include her friend...any more than a new life with a new job would include her.

It was an example of how this friendship has nothing to do with anything. It is a temporary thing and YOU did not make the life decision which caused it to end.

But...allow me to say this. You don't need to do everything right this second.

When my wife confronted me about my EA, she did NOT insist on dumping her right away. Slowly and purposefully, she helped wean her out of my system until 4 months later, we did seperate.

So...she isn't transfering now anyway. She's going to see the woman anyway. Don't make this ultimatum, particularly since you can't enforce it.

BUT...every day, EVERY DAY, you ask "Did you talk about POS with her?" EVERY day, you need to make her uncomfortable with being in contact with her. She needs to agree with this decision and it sounds like she doesn't want to make it (have you put feelers out on this front or are you too afraid to broach the topic at all?).

Now...since I'm famous for feeling for the 'bad guys' let me take a look at this friend. I actually feel sorry for her. She's a single mom living with her parents, right? She has kids to take care of, a loser brother she has to share a house with, and the only normal thing in her life besides the parents of her little Spec Ed darlings (none of them who are appreciative enough of her work...at least in her mind) is you and your wife. You are her connection to normal and of course she doesn't want to lose that.

She WANTS that.

I hadn't considered that maybe she might have thought that the wife was doing her brother some good or that she might be whistful to make your wife her sister in law.

But I have ABSOLUTELY NO FACTS backing that up. Just...you really can't trust this woman, first because of what she might lose (her friend and connection to normal) second because she might have liked them as a couple, and third because of the benefits of having you guys as babysitters et al.

She may very well say anything to keep HER status quo going.

So...how good are you at detecting lies? According to your track record, not very.

This is an opinion.


----------



## bfree

Dday said:


> I tell her no more friend and to change grades she is miserable and we get divorced.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excuse me but your relationship is so shallow and tenuous that you would end up divorced if she is required to give up her friend and job as a consequence of her affair? If that is the case then I would ask what you are trying to save?


----------



## southernsurf

Dday I have followed the story and I'm surprised and confused with your tone, you don't seem angry, more analytical and you seem still in shock. She appears in charge. I know you have been hammered with that so please brace, trust nothing you are still headed right into the storm. Its out there and can not be avoided everyone experiences it. Stay strong
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

JCD said:


> I wasn't saying to move, only that if your work offered you a promotion if you transfered, would you REALLY turn it down just because of this woman friend? Would your wife allow you to turn it down? REALLY?
> 
> I doubt it.
> 
> This life change is no different than the life change your wife has subjected you too. She got demoted from faithful spouse to cheating wife. She needs to move on with her life and that new life doesn't include her friend...any more than a new life with a new job would include her.
> 
> It was an example of how this friendship has nothing to do with anything. It is a temporary thing and YOU did not make the life decision which caused it to end.
> 
> But...allow me to say this. You don't need to do everything right this second.
> 
> When my wife confronted me about my EA, she did NOT insist on dumping her right away. Slowly and purposefully, she helped wean her out of my system until 4 months later, we did seperate.
> 
> So...she isn't transfering now anyway. She's going to see the woman anyway. Don't make this ultimatum, particularly since you can't enforce it.
> 
> BUT...every day, EVERY DAY, you ask "Did you talk about POS with her?" EVERY day, you need to make her uncomfortable with being in contact with her. She needs to agree with this decision and it sounds like she doesn't want to make it (have you put feelers out on this front or are you too afraid to broach the topic at all?).
> 
> Now...since I'm famous for feeling for the 'bad guys' let me take a look at this friend. I actually feel sorry for her. She's a single mom living with her parents, right? She has kids to take care of, a loser brother she has to share a house with, and the only normal thing in her life besides the parents of her little Spec Ed darlings (none of them who are appreciative enough of her work...at least in her mind) is you and your wife. You are her connection to normal and of course she doesn't want to lose that.
> 
> She WANTS that.
> 
> I hadn't considered that maybe she might have thought that the wife was doing her brother some good or that she might be whistful to make your wife her sister in law.
> 
> But I have ABSOLUTELY NO FACTS backing that up. Just...you really can't trust this woman, first because of what she might lose (her friend and connection to normal) second because she might have liked them as a couple, and third because of the benefits of having you guys as babysitters et al.
> 
> She may very well say anything to keep HER status quo going.
> 
> So...how good are you at detecting lies? According to your track record, not very.
> 
> This is an opinion.


I ask her everyday about their conversations. If they talked about the POS. we also have other friends in our circle, I guess you would call it ,that would have to make a decision between us and the bf. we have been pretty close over the last couple of years with the same age kids and all. 

The relationship with the best friend will never be the same with any of us and like you said I don't want to give any ultimatums that I can't enforce or back up when they are broken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

bfree said:


> Excuse me but your relationship is so shallow and tenuous that you would end up divorced if she is required to give up her friend and job as a consequence of her affair? If that is the case then I would ask what you are trying to save?


I don't think right away it would end up in D. I was just projecting down the road what may happen. She would do anything I ask right now. I don't want to take advantage of that and make decisions that would be bad for us long term. Yes she fuvked up, but if I am making the decision to R I am not going to make her pay for this the rest of our lives. I'm not going to forget what happened but she won't be punished everyday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

southernsurf said:


> Dday I have followed the story and I'm surprised and confused with your tone, you don't seem angry, more analytical and you seem still in shock. She appears in charge. I know you have been hammered with that so please brace, trust nothing you are still headed right into the storm. Its out there and can not be avoided everyone experiences it. Stay strong
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was/am angry, my wife saw that. Here I am able to process the information I am getting and I am trying to find the best course for our long term success. That is what I want, I made that decision almost right away and I never really wavered from that decision. I use more of the information here then I probably post about and this thread has helped me immensely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## southernsurf

Does she sense you may be online here getting advice
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Dday said:


> I don't think right away it would end up in D. I was just projecting down the road what may happen. She would do anything I ask right now. I don't want to take advantage of that and make decisions that would be bad for us long term. Yes she fuvked up, but if I am making the decision to R I am not going to make her pay for this the rest of our lives. I'm not going to forget what happened but she won't be punished everyday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pardon me for saying this but I really feel you are projecting your "nice guy" insecurities on your wife. Would she be unhappy if she had to give up her job? Yes I'm sure she would. Would she be sad if she lost her best friend. No doubt. But what you need to understand is that you are talking about your marriage here. Is your marriage the most important thing in your life? Is it the most important thing in your wife's life? Then everything else is not really that important is it? Have you read the posts in the Reconciliation thread? Have you read about the things the fWS's in that thread have sacrificed for their marriage to be healed? Have you seen the extraordinary measures they have taken to limit their spouse's triggers and the work they have done to rebuild trust? And you honestly believe that your wife would resent you so much that it would end in divorce? You really feel that your wife is that apathetic to your feelings that she would blanch at doing the necessary work to heal the damage she inflicted.

The reason you institute responsible effective consequences and measures is to make sure that your wife doesn't have to "pay for this for the rest of your lives." The reason you set up strict controls and boundaries now is exactly so you don't have to make future decisions "that would be bad for you long term." What you are failing to realize is that by allowing contact between her lover's sister you are making a decision right now that is bad for you long term. What you are failing to grasp is that her leaving her current employment is an effective consequence so that you she doesn't have to pay for this for the rest of your lives. Friend, you get one shot at this. You can either listen to the advice you are getting here and give yourself the best shot at true and lasting reconciliation or you do what some others have done and believe that your situation is different and you know better. In that case I suggest you reserve your thread title now in the Going Through Divorce section as so many have had to do before you.

BTW, the advice you are receiving is also reflected in many of the leading books on infidelity recovery and rebuilding trust. The men and women on TAM know their stuff. Its knowledge that has been gleaned from many sources and painful experiences. My uncle always told me a wise man learns from the mistakes of others, a fool learns from his own. Its up to you to decide which you want to be.


----------



## LongWalk

southernsurf said:


> Does she sense you may be online here getting advice
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good question.

Dday, how much time do you estimate you have to set up barriers that will successfully prevent OM and your wife from resuming their relationship?

Are you feeling secure at this point?

What do estimate the chances of your marriage surviving another three years are, 90%? under 50%


----------



## SadandAngry

Have you gotten yourself No More Mr Nice Guy yet? You are trying mightily to keep things smooth in your life, neglecting yourself in the process. It won't work in the long term.


----------



## sandc

Reading through your thread I'm really getting the sense that you're driving the R. She sounds cooperative but not like she's fully on board. SHE needs to be driving this. Not you. Only when she realizes that she could lose you will she really get on board.


----------



## NewM

Dday said:


> Some things yes, but it is forced and I know she is thinking of him while doing it or right after. I'm thinking only time and frequency will help fade those memories and thoughts?


Maybe she is,but with time it will change to being your thing.I think you should demand that she does everything with you that she didn't want to do before but did with him and other things that you wanted to do even if she didn't do those him too because she probably would have done everything with OM had he asked her.This shouldn't be some punishment type of thing(don't make her do stuff you don't want to do) but just being decisive and not accepting her excuses.

Another reason to look into is why she was open to doing more things with OM,what made her open up,it was probably she felt that he cared for her/appreciated her/gave her more attention,so you will have to step up in those or whatever was the reason for being more open with him.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Shaggy said:


> Dude many people sell houses and move states due to affairs.
> 
> Imagine the impact to yours kids that a D would have.
> 
> Dumping a friend and a job is pretty minor to those things.


Dday, I understand your hesitation about it, but if you and your wife decide at some point you are going fully for the marriage, for building trust, deciding to love again in good and bad times:

Then ultimately it comes down on the realisation of what Shaggy makes so clear.

She will have to choose between you and BF.

And you will have to do that too! Let them go. Find a new path, new people.


----------



## Everafter2013

Dday said:


> She would do anything I ask right now.


That's not completely true, is it? She doesn't think her BFF should be punished for her affair, she said she would write the statement, but she hasn't. Saying one will do something is NOT the same as actually doing it. There appears to be a disconnect between what you want yourself to believe and what is actually happening. And we don't even know you. I just go by everything that you have written here. 

Regarding text, what other said. Texting and receiving texts to and from friends are not the same when it is to and from a lover. One puts more effort, spends more time to read and re-read it. If you don't think it's such a big deal, so be it. Apparently you and your wife are accomplished multi-taskers. She could spend that much effort and time for her lover and still be a good mother and teacher. Your heart is broken but you are trying all you can to make everyone happy. 

Just remember this, IF your wife really did spend a couple of seconds to text, that still amounts to 50-something minutes of NON-STOP texting everyday for 7 straight months. What does this tell you about your wife? My opinion? She has an addictive personality. That also explains how and why she could find this loser OM attractive. They have something in common. 

Good luck with your R.


----------



## warlock07

I cannot quote every message of yours but every post of yours has something or other like this



> I tell her no more friend and to change grades she is miserable and we get divorced.


You are so scared of upsetting her. She is totally controlling the R process. She told you giving up the friend is not an option. You are making every excuse for her why she cannot do something.

Is that a pattern established in the marriage ? She gets everything her way and you settle for whatever has been dealt to you because that makes her happy ? Did you in anyway feed her entitlement behavior or do you think she will divorce you if you make her do something that you want ? If that is all that takes you to build resentment and divorce you, you don't have much of a marriage anyway.



> I'm not going to forget what happened but she won't be punished everyday


Are you punishing her when you ask this ? Maybe asking her to go NC is also punishment in one sense. You asked her to give up on a lover. 

The point I am trying to make is, you are not doing this out of your own sense of entitlement or for revenge. You are doing what is best for your family and kids. Even if there is a 1% risk of resuming her affair because she stays friends with her, you shouldn't take it. Her sister reminds her of him, her house reminds her of him. The furniture etc.

You get what you settle for. Good luck. You can start addressing your wife's concerns only after you start treating yourself with some dignity and respect. You are just so scared of offending her or do something that might upset her.


----------



## JCD

Everafter2013 said:


> That's not completely true, is it? She doesn't think her BFF should be punished for her affair, she said she would write the statement, but she hasn't. Saying one will do something is NOT the same as actually doing it. There appears to be a disconnect between what you want yourself to believe and what is actually happening. And we don't even know you. I just go by everything that you have written here.
> 
> Regarding text, what other said. Texting and receiving texts to and from friends are not the same when it is to and from a lover. One puts more effort, spends more time to read and re-read it. If you don't think it's such a big deal, so be it. Apparently you and your wife are accomplished multi-taskers. She could spend that much effort and time for her lover and still be a good mother and teacher. Your heart is broken but you are trying all you can to make everyone happy.
> 
> Just remember this, IF your wife really did spend a couple of seconds to text, that still amounts to 50-something minutes of NON-STOP texting everyday for 7 straight months. What does this tell you about your wife? My opinion? She has an addictive personality. That also explains how and why she could find this loser OM attractive. They have something in common.
> 
> Good luck with your R.


Granted, it's easy for her to OFFER to do anything when he won't DEMAND she do ANYTHING (except...you know...give up that pesky lover...but only if you are okay with that dear...)

So besides giving up the druggy what exactly has she done to R with you?


----------



## LongWalk

Dday, you are dithering as you wife lays a stone wall up to protect the affair. For the moment it cannot be physical. However, once the motar hardens you will find yourself chipping at it with a screwdriver.

The only thing preventing her from moving to the big house with your children is the ugly facts that would damage her in a child custody battle. If she could win custody, you would end up paying child support to the big household. Stranger things have happened in courts before. Remember your wife is kindergarten teacher; society will assume she kind, good and responsible. You will have to prove this is not the case if you end up in custody fight.

You are aware that you can file for D while working for R. If R succeeds, you cancel D. The process of D would allow you to bring in a court appointed social worker to investigate the OM. That would help to keep in away while documenting the fact that you are the stable parent.

Can you even proof that the affair has taken place if worse comes to worse?

Can you get a restraining order on OM? That might buy you some peace of mind.


----------



## dogman

Dday said:


> I don't think right away it would end up in D. I was just projecting down the road what may happen. She would do anything I ask right now. I don't want to take advantage of that and make decisions that would be bad for us long term. Yes she fuvked up, but if I am making the decision to R I am not going to make her pay for this the rest of our lives. I'm not going to forget what happened but she won't be punished everyday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad you're not in charge of punishing the Boston marathon bomber because, golly gee, he already lost his brother, he shouldn't be reminded everyday for the rest of his life that he made a mistake.

He didn't make a mistake he planned and carried out what he did wrong. He will not be sorry for a long time, not for real. And neither will your wife unless she feels this for a long time.

For me, I wasn't sorry till about a year after and only then because her hurt kept pouring out and she beat me over the head with it.

True change didn't happen for me for a couple years after. I credit this to being beat over the head with what I did.

Contrary to popular belief true change rarely happens. It is earned.

You are making a mistake you will feel down the road in a big way. 
JMHO


----------



## southernsurf

sandc said:


> Reading through your thread I'm really getting the sense that you're driving the R. She sounds cooperative but not like she's fully on board. SHE needs to be driving this. Not you. Only when she realizes that she could lose you will she really get on board.


Yes this is my read too. She controls everything. Dday you haven't accepted what happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

southernsurf said:


> Does she sense you may be online here getting advice
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She knows that I am on a website posting. She hasn't read this thread yet that I know of. I usually open a webpage on her phone in the morning and check the history later to see what she has been looking at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

bfree said:


> Pardon me for saying this but I really feel you are projecting your "nice guy" insecurities on your wife. Would she be unhappy if she had to give up her job? Yes I'm sure she would. Would she be sad if she lost her best friend. No doubt. But what you need to understand is that you are talking about your marriage here. Is your marriage the most important thing in your life? Is it the most important thing in your wife's life? Then everything else is not really that important is it? Have you read the posts in the Reconciliation thread? Have you read about the things the fWS's in that thread have sacrificed for their marriage to be healed? Have you seen the extraordinary measures they have taken to limit their spouse's triggers and the work they have done to rebuild trust? And you honestly believe that your wife would resent you so much that it would end in divorce? You really feel that your wife is that apathetic to your feelings that she would blanch at doing the necessary work to heal the damage she inflicted.
> 
> The reason you institute responsible effective consequences and measures is to make sure that your wife doesn't have to "pay for this for the rest of your lives." The reason you set up strict controls and boundaries now is exactly so you don't have to make future decisions "that would be bad for you long term." What you are failing to realize is that by allowing contact between her lover's sister you are making a decision right now that is bad for you long term. What you are failing to grasp is that her leaving her current employment is an effective consequence so that you she doesn't have to pay for this for the rest of your lives. Friend, you get one shot at this. You can either listen to the advice you are getting here and give yourself the best shot at true and lasting reconciliation or you do what some others have done and believe that your situation is different and you know better. In that case I suggest you reserve your thread title now in the Going Through Divorce section as so many have had to do before you.
> 
> BTW, the advice you are receiving is also reflected in many of the leading books on infidelity recovery and rebuilding trust. The men and women on TAM know their stuff. Its knowledge that has been gleaned from many sources and painful experiences. My uncle always told me a wise man learns from the mistakes of others, a fool learns from his own. Its up to you to decide which you want to be.


I do consider myself a laid back/nice guy. I told my wife that I was angry that she used that against me and took advantage of who I am. I'm not going to let this define me as a person as I like who I am. With that said I have not been that way with her during the last 3 weeks. I have been reading the R thread and eventually I will invite my wife here to read with me. I agree with what you are saying here and that is my plan. There are/have been consequences and they will continue until I believe she has totally transformed who she has become.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Good question.
> 
> Dday, how much time do you estimate you have to set up barriers that will successfully prevent OM and your wife from resuming their relationship?
> 
> Are you feeling secure at this point?
> 
> What do estimate the chances of your marriage surviving another three years are, 90%? under 50%


I do not feel secure in the long term. Right now I do, but at some point he is going to try to contact her or there will be a chance run in. With the strong feelings they had for each other I have no idea how that will go. 

I think we have about a 70% chance. I get that from our MC who has said clients that are both willing to R have that success rate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

SadandAngry said:


> Have you gotten yourself No More Mr Nice Guy yet? You are trying mightily to keep things smooth in your life, neglecting yourself in the process. It won't work in the long term.


I have only read not just friends. I will be reading more and that is on my list
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

sandc said:


> Reading through your thread I'm really getting the sense that you're driving the R. She sounds cooperative but not like she's fully on board. SHE needs to be driving this. Not you. Only when she realizes that she could lose you will she really get on board.


I feel this way too. She says she is 100% in but not all of her actions show that. This has been discussed and I'm not sure if its bs excuses but She doesn't feel she knows herself right now and is confused with how this happened. She desperately wants counseling and will be getting some next week. She would like and is able to disconnect from the situation and live like it didn't happen. I am not letting her do this and it is wearing us both down. Our MC asked us to try to have a nice weekend and not talk about this until Tuesday, she loved that but that isn't possible for me right now, so we have talked about it a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

warlock07 said:


> I cannot quote every message of yours but every post of yours has something or other like this
> 
> 
> 
> You are so scared of upsetting her. She is totally controlling the R process. She told you giving up the friend is not an option. You are making every excuse for her why she cannot do something.
> 
> Is that a pattern established in the marriage ? She gets everything her way and you settle for whatever has been dealt to you because that makes her happy ? Did you in anyway feed her entitlement behavior or do you think she will divorce you if you make her do something that you want ? If that is all that takes you to build resentment and divorce you, you don't have much of a marriage anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you punishing her when you ask this ? Maybe asking her to go NC is also punishment in one sense. You asked her to give up on a lover.
> 
> The point I am trying to make is, you are not doing this out of your own sense of entitlement or for revenge. You are doing what is best for your family and kids. Even if there is a 1% risk of resuming her affair because she stays friends with her, you shouldn't take it. Her sister reminds her of him, her house reminds her of him. The furniture etc.
> 
> You get what you settle for. Good luck. You can start addressing your wife's concerns only after you start treating yourself with some dignity and respect. You are just so scared of offending her or do something that might upset her.


We have had a pretty even marriage in just about every aspect. If anything I went out a lot more and did more of what I wanted. That was until about 2 years ago when I encouraged her to get a hobby, she did with kick boxing. She got in the best shape of her life, even before the 3 kids and started running 5ks and other mud runs and stuff. The bf was into these runs as well and that is how their friendship got so close. 

I have always played softball and we travel a couple weekends a year, she comes with us if it is in a nice spot. I also hunt and travel for a week during the hunting season with my dad. I think in the 5 years we were having kids I only missed 2 trips, everything else I went on. All I am saying here is that she hasn't walked all over me the whole relationship. I'm always respectful as is she (or was) and we have had very little fights as we always compromised. 

I see there are issues here I should not be compromising on and I do plan on getting to that point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

JCD said:


> Granted, it's easy for her to OFFER to do anything when he won't DEMAND she do ANYTHING (except...you know...give up that pesky lover...but only if you are okay with that dear...)
> 
> So besides giving up the druggy what exactly has she done to R with you?


Obviously NC
No GNO's
Hasn't had a drink when I am not there (not that we are alcoholics)
Texting/calling a lot more often
Checking in when she is at a place, running late, or on the way home
Answered all of my questions. And continues too
Called and set up counseling
Initiated more intimacy
Showed more affection
Open with her phone and email
Didn't say anything when I searched for burner phone

I'm sure there are more but that's all I could think of. Is there anything else besides cutting the bf out of the picture I should be looking for?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Dday said:


> There are/have been consequences and they will continue until I believe she has totally transformed who she has become.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


May I ask exactly what consequences have been put in place? Are they actually consequences or are they simply temporary restrictions allowing you to monitor her so that you are convinced that the affair is not currently active. Restrictions simply allow you to feel safe while you remain married to her. Those are things like giving you her passwords, allowing you to check up on her, telling you where she is at all times. They are temporary because long term they will cause resentment from her and you will start to feel more like a prison warden than a husband. They cannot stay in place long term, at least not as stringent as in the beginning. Consequences are designed to show her there is a price to her bad decisions and should help to alter her future behavior. These are things like exposure to her and your family, exposure at work, writing a letter of NC to her AP and all her toxic friends, possibly even things like postnups or signing divorce papers that would lean heavily in your favor. They are designed to demonstrate on an emotional level how far and wide a betrayal like this can and does stretch and how painful it really is. They are designed to embarrass and humiliate so that future like behavior is curbed. There is a huge difference. So have you put restrictions in place or have there actually been consequences?


----------



## bfree

Dday said:


> Obviously NC
> No GNO's
> Hasn't had a drink when I am not there (not that we are alcoholics)
> Texting/calling a lot more often
> Checking in when she is at a place, running late, or on the way home
> Answered all of my questions. And continues too
> Called and set up counseling
> Initiated more intimacy
> Showed more affection
> Open with her phone and email
> Didn't say anything when I searched for burner phone
> 
> I'm sure there are more but that's all I could think of. Is there anything else besides cutting the bf out of the picture I should be looking for?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, if she would have contact with her lover's sister at work she must change jobs. If there are any other toxic friends that she has they must also be removed from the picture. She needs to voluntarily expose this to your and her familes and apologize for her bad judgement and for hurting you. She must write down a timeline of all her illicit activities in her own handwriting so that in the future she cannot deny any of these activities. Those would be a good start.


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Dday, you are dithering as you wife lays a stone wall up to protect the affair. For the moment it cannot be physical. However, once the motar hardens you will find yourself chipping at it with a screwdriver.
> 
> The only thing preventing her from moving to the big house with your children is the ugly facts that would damage her in a child custody battle. If she could win custody, you would end up paying child support to the big household. Stranger things have happened in courts before. Remember your wife is kindergarten teacher; society will assume she kind, good and responsible. You will have to prove this is not the case if you end up in custody fight.
> 
> You are aware that you can file for D while working for R. If R succeeds, you cancel D. The process of D would allow you to bring in a court appointed social worker to investigate the OM. That would help to keep in away while documenting the fact that you are the stable parent.
> 
> Can you even proof that the affair has taken place if worse comes to worse?
> 
> Can you get a restraining order on OM? That might buy you some peace of mind.


I have enough evidence to prove the affair. Plus she has admitted to enough people that it wouldn't be worth her fighting. 

I don't think we could get a restraining order unless he tries to break no contact. If he does he should probably get a restraining order on me. 

Ultimately I don't think I would take the kids from their mother if it came down to that. If she moved in with the OM that would be a different story and I would try everything in my power to keep them. I told her this and told her that I would win, even though I probably wouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

dogman said:


> I'm glad you're not in charge of punishing the Boston marathon bomber because, golly gee, he already lost his brother, he shouldn't be reminded everyday for the rest of his life that he made a mistake.
> 
> He didn't make a mistake he planned and carried out what he did wrong. He will not be sorry for a long time, not for real. And neither will your wife unless she feels this for a long time.
> 
> For me, I wasn't sorry till about a year after and only then because her hurt kept pouring out and she beat me over the head with it.
> 
> True change didn't happen for me for a couple years after. I credit this to being beat over the head with what I did.
> 
> Contrary to popular belief true change rarely happens. It is earned.
> 
> You are making a mistake you will feel down the road in a big way.
> JMHO


I wish I was in charge of the bomber. First I would torture him until he told us everything he knows about every terrorist group he has ever been involved in. Then I would televise his death on tv. It wouldn't be a quick painless death either, it would be like the scene from Law Abiding Citizen. And this all would happen within a couple weeks so we don't waste tax payer money on him. 

What do you think your wife should of done sooner to speed up your process? Did you have an EA or was it only a PA? What do you mean when you say true change? We're you still thinking about having an A during that time? Did you ever stop loving your wife? Did you have to learn to love her again?

Sorry I have a lot of questions
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Dday,

When I was a young boy I would often visit my aunt and uncles house. They lived in a rural area whereas my parents lived in a congested part of the city. They spoiled me a little and I really enjoyed staying with them sometimes even for several weeks at a time. My aunt had planted a forsythia bush along one side of the house as it happens right under the window of the bedroom I slept in. Every morning during the spring and summer I would wake up to the sweet fragrance of those beautiful yellow flowers knowing that I was safe and loved. To this day every time I see a forsythia bush I think of those times. When I smell the pungent aroma of those beautiful yellow flowers I think back to those carefree days of my youth. Do you have similar memories and triggers? Because your wife's best friend is that kind of memory trigger for her affair.

Every time she sees her she is seeing the face of her lover. Every time she hears her voice its her lover's voice whispering things like "I love you" and "I want you" in her ear. Every time she hugs her best friend she is having the most exciting sex in her life yet again. Do you see what I'm trying to get you to understand here? How do you expect your wife to emerge from her fog if she is constantly being put back in it? How can she work to reconnect with you if she is still connecting with the memories of her affair? If you do not ensure no contact with not only her lover but also her lover's sister then the best you can ever hope for is limbo and a slow lingering death for your marriage.


----------



## crazyace

Did she never think about you or the children when she was with the other guy ?
When she used to sleep with the OM and come back home acting normal did you never see anything different ?
Did she say "I love you" to you or respond to your "I love you's" in her period of the affair ?
Was she close and intimate to you as usual during her phase of the affair ? Especially when she is back from the OM's house ?


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> I feel this way too. She says she is 100% in but not all of her actions show that. This has been discussed and I'm not sure if its bs excuses but She doesn't feel she knows herself right now and is confused with how this happened. She desperately wants counseling and will be getting some next week. She would like and is able to disconnect from the situation and live like it didn't happen. I am not letting her do this and it is wearing us both down. *Our MC asked us to try to have a nice weekend and not talk about this until Tuesday, she loved that *but that isn't possible for me right now, so we have talked about it a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your MC sounds like he/she sucks. The 70% success rate is how many STAY together, not how many are HAPPY staying together. 70% success rate because the MC's advice seems to be to rugsweep, not discuss the affair.

Has MC started probing as to how deficient as a husband and a man you were to make your wife want to cheat on you yet?

A good way to pick an MC is to find out if they have heard of Shirley Glass and Not Just Friends.

The best MCs are ones that deal with sex addiction, not because cheaters are sex addicts, but because an affair is like an addiction in many respects.

There are good MCs and bad MCs, like anything else in life. If you are with a bad one, they can do more harm than good. The worst MCs will "blame the victim." Already, this MC seems to have made you feel worse and your wife feel better. Don't let the MC get to the place where your wife had the affair and the reason is because you were such a bad husband. This surely either will kill your marriage or put you in a very unhappy marriage for you.


----------



## Dday

bfree said:


> Dday,
> 
> When I was a young boy I would often visit my aunt and uncles house. They lived in a rural area whereas my parents lived in a congested part of the city. They spoiled me a little and I really enjoyed staying with them sometimes even for several weeks at a time. My aunt had planted a forsythia bush along one side of the house as it happens right under the window of the bedroom I slept in. Every morning during the spring and summer I would wake up to the sweet fragrance of those beautiful yellow flowers knowing that I was safe and loved. To this day every time I see a forsythia bush I think of those times. When I smell the pungent aroma of those beautiful yellow flowers I think back to those carefree days of my youth. Do you have similar memories and triggers? Because your wife's best friend is that kind of memory trigger for her affair.
> 
> Every time she sees her she is seeing the face of her lover. Every time she hears her voice its her lover's voice whispering things like "I love you" and "I want you" in her ear. Every time she hugs her best friend she is having the most exciting sex in her life yet again. Do you see what I'm trying to get you to understand here? How do you expect your wife to emerge from her fog if she is constantly being put back in it? How can she work to reconnect with you if she is still connecting with the memories of her affair? If you do not ensure no contact with not only her lover but also her lover's sister then the best you can ever hope for is limbo and a slow lingering death for your marriage.


I get it! I really do. I'm hesitant but there is no doubt that it needs to be done.


----------



## bfree

Dday said:


> I get it! I really do. I'm hesitant but there is no doubt that it needs to be done.


Good. I understand how this is all difficult to process. But we are really just trying to help you have a successful reconciliation.


----------



## bfree

Will_Kane said:


> Your MC sounds like he/she sucks. The 70% success rate is how many STAY together, not how many are HAPPY staying together. 70% success rate because the MC's advice seems to be to rugsweep, not discuss the affair.
> 
> Has MC started probing as to how deficient as a husband and a man you were to make your wife want to cheat on you yet?
> 
> A good way to pick an MC is to find out if they have heard of Shirley Glass and Not Just Friends.
> 
> The best MCs are ones that deal with sex addiction, not because cheaters are sex addicts, but because an affair is like an addiction in many respects.
> 
> There are good MCs and bad MCs, like anything else in life. If you are with a bad one, they can do more harm than good. The worst MCs will "blame the victim." Already, this MC seems to have made you feel worse and your wife feel better. Don't let the MC get to the place where your wife had the affair and the reason is because you were such a bad husband. This surely either will kill your marriage or put you in a very unhappy marriage for you.


Another bad MC. Sigh.


----------



## Dday

crazyace said:


> Did she never think about you or the children when she was with the other guy ?
> When she used to sleep with the OM and come back home acting normal did you never see anything different ?
> Did she say "I love you" to you or respond to your "I love you's" in her period of the affair ?
> Was she close and intimate to you as usual during her phase of the affair ? Especially when she is back from the OM's house ?


The OM used the kids against me. She would complain that I didn't want to go to bday parties with them or go to the zoo on a Saturday. The OM would show my kids so much attention and go on trips like the aquarium with his nephew and my kids while I'm at work to build the bond. Plus all the play dates he got to be the fun guy during the couple hours until they left. I ask her now if they talked about the future and she said they really didn't. He would say that he would be there for her and all that but I'm not sure what she thought. 

We always said I love you before we left to go anywhere and always before bed. That never changed

We had sex about 1-3 times a week. I always wanted more but I thought I was doing good compared to what my other married friends were getting. 

She always stayed out when they had sex or I was out of town. That's what I'm told anyway and is one of my questions I need her to write a statement on.


----------



## Dday

To defend the MC we haven't met with her yet. Our first appointment is Tuesday. This was a conversation my wife had with her on the phone and she doesn't know anything besides my wife had an affair. She wanted us in yesterday and even today but our weekend was just too busy.


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> The OM used the kids against me. She would complain that I didn't want to go to bday parties with them or go to the zoo on a Saturday. The OM would show my kids so much attention and go on trips like the aquarium with his nephew and my kids while I'm at work to build the bond. Plus all the play dates he got to be the fun guy during the couple hours until they left. I ask her now if they talked about the future and she said they really didn't. He would say that he would be there for her and all that but I'm not sure what she thought.
> 
> We always said I love you before we left to go anywhere and always before bed. That never changed
> 
> We had sex about 1-3 times a week. I always wanted more but I thought I was doing good compared to what my other married friends were getting.
> 
> She always stayed out when they had sex or I was out of town. *That's what I'm told anyway and is one of my questions I need her to write a statement on*.


She still hasn't written that damn statment yet?

She found time to text this guy an hour a day (at least) and all that time going over to best friends house and sleeping over, yet she can't find time to write this statement out for you.

Sit her down in a room for three hours, take the kids and go to the playground and to get something to eat, and tell her you want it done by the time you get back.

She really is not doing much to give you what you need to get over this.


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## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> She still hasn't written that damn statment yet?
> 
> She found time to text this guy an hour a day (at least) and all that time going over to best friends house and sleeping over, yet she can't find time to write this statement out for you.
> 
> Sit her down in a room for three hours, take the kids and go to the playground and to get something to eat, and tell her you want it done by the time you get back.
> 
> She really is not doing much to give you what you need to get over this.


She will have it done by today. We have been busy but she has been stonewalling me as well. I am about to leave for a few hours and I expect it when I get back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dogman

Dday said:


> I wish I was in charge of the bomber. First I would torture him until he told us everything he knows about every terrorist group he has ever been involved in. Then I would televise his death on tv. It wouldn't be a quick painless death either, it would be like the scene from Law Abiding Citizen. And this all would happen within a couple weeks so we don't waste tax payer money on him.
> 
> What do you think your wife should of done sooner to speed up your process? Did you have an EA or was it only a PA? What do you mean when you say true change? We're you still thinking about having an A during that time? Did you ever stop loving your wife? Did you have to learn to love her again?
> 
> Sorry I have a lot of questions
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Hi dday,
No problem with the questions.
I did not cheat, I left my wife for 7 months and was an a-hole to her. I did not plan to reconcile but she did a perfect 180 and then took a hard line with the kids so I went back, thank God!

I felt like I did fall out of love with her. 

She played it cool for a long time because I Was still very aggressive. Once she reached a point of being willing to lose me, everything changed. I was forced to examine my motives and get serious about counseling. I had to work hard and earn our relationship again. I actually changed some things about myself that I never thought I would even admit let alone change.

She needed to be willing to lose me sooner to speed up the process.

In my situation I didn't cheat but I did blame her for everything. When she started to beat me up and was ready to lose me, I had to take REAL responsibility for MY issues. Without real repercussions I would never have gotten here. 

By real change I mean, changing the way I process issues and feelings and how I communicate those to my wife. I don't carry stuff around and become resentful or angry. I actually relieved myself of "things" that subconsciously drove my conscious actions. The result is more genuine actions.

We are 7+ years past me leaving.
The issue I had for leaving is still there but my communication has gotten to where its not a deal breaker and I recognize the value of our vows.


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> She will have it done by today. We have been busy but *she has been stonewalling me as well*. I am about to leave for a few hours and I expect it when I get back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We all know she has been stonewalling you. We all have been where you are already.

The reason she has been stonewalling you is because, as you have said you suspect, she still has not told you the truth about the things you want her to put in the statement.

She still is holding out hope for a future with the other man and intends to cheat with him again, so she doesn't want to put any consequences for herself if she does.

Be prepared mentally that the statement will not include all the things you asked for. Based on what you posted, your wife is not ready to give you the truth or commit her lies to writing. She is SAYING all the right things to placate you, but in her head she is still pondering all of the possibilities. She has not decided to reconcile with you yet, she just doesn't want to close that door or force you to divorce her, so she is giving you lip service while she weighs her options. If other man had a job and could support her, she would be with him now.

You would think it is easy enough for her to lie and just write whatever you say, but for some reason the cheaters don't like to put their lies in writing, maybe because they know you will use it against them later and they won't be able to weasel their way out of it.

Be prepared for what you will do if the statement she writes is not good enough for you. This is a common problem, almost no cheater can do this UNLESS they truly have decided to give up the affair and really see the other man for the POS he is. Yours has not and does not.

If the statement is not good enough, you may have to sit with her and go over it step by step, she writes it while you watch and you correct her as she goes. Yes, it can be that bad. She is an intelligent woman, teaches kids, but she won't be able to do this simple task to your satisfaction. She will drag her feet and not put in there what you have asked.

When you sit with her and go over it point by point, THEN you may get a better glimpse into what is going on inside of her head.


----------



## southernsurf

The fact you are back here and opening up more each time says you are worried how this is going and just maybe there is some hard cold honesty from these faceless people. People here are on your side, have lived this and survived to come out the other end
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Dday said:


> She will have it done by today. We have been busy but she has been stonewalling me as well. I am about to leave for a few hours and I expect it when I get back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As much as we advise that the WS needs to do the heavy lifting oftentimes they are either still in the fog or are confused as to what to do or how to do it. You as the BS and even more as the man in the relationship have to DEMAND the things that are necessary to continue to stay married and bring about a successful reconciliation. I know you said that you are a nice guy and somewhat laid back. I realize that you don't want this to define who you are or change you long term. But in the short term you do have to change in order to lead your family back from the brink of disaster. Given your wife's recent batch of mismanagement and missteps do you think she can accomplish this? Can you honestly see her being able to lead your family back from the brink of disaster? You must demand these things and she must comply. There is no more to be said. I can tell you are a very logical straightforward person. I can tell you love your wife very much and you don't want to make her miserable. Each time something comes up what you must ask yourself is this. Would she be more upset by giving up her best friend or by losing you? Would she be more upset by losing her job or by a divorce? Obviously the answer needs to always point to you and the marriage as what she would not want to lose. So you need to make sure to do what is necessary to ensure your marriage survives this and any other future challenges. You KNOW she needs to drop the BFF. You KNOW she needs to find another job or transfer in order to purge this affair from your lives. YOU have to demand that these things be done. She might resist. She might even resent or hate you for demanding it. Frankly I would be shocked if she didn't. But for the long term health of your marriage you KNOW what needs to be done. And if you've read the Reconciliation thread or any of the other threads from couples that are successfully R you also KNOW that your relationship can become stronger and even more loving than it ever was previously. The hate is momentary. The resentment fleeting. The marriage and the love can and should be forever.


----------



## southernsurf

Dday said:


> I wish I was in charge of the bomber. First I would torture him until he told us everything he knows about every terrorist group he has ever been involved in. Then I would televise his death on tv. It wouldn't be a quick painless death either, it would be like the scene from Law Abiding Citizen. And this all would happen within a couple weeks so we don't waste tax payer money on him.
> 
> What do you think your wife should of done sooner to speed up your process? Did you have an EA or was it only a PA? What do you mean when you say true change? We're you still thinking about having an A during that time? Did you ever stop loving your wife? Did you have to learn to love her again?
> 
> Sorry I have a lot of questions
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mine was wishy washy, to uncertain until the day I said enough, I'm done. By then I couldn't take anymore, she pushed me over the edge and I went dark 180 for good. It was for my own sanity, I knew I tried. She lost everything when she thought she was trading up, now her spiral is she's had 2 more divorces and currently living with her mother in an apartment living month to month.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

dogman said:


> Hi dday,
> No problem with the questions.
> I did not cheat, I left my wife for 7 months and was an a-hole to her. I did not plan to reconcile but *she did a perfect 180 and then took a hard line* with the kids so I went back, thank God!
> 
> I felt like I did fall out of love with her.
> 
> She played it cool for a long time because I Was still very aggressive. *Once she reached a point of being willing to lose me, everything changed*. I was forced to examine my motives and get serious about counseling. *I had to work hard and earn our relationship again*. I actually changed some things about myself that I never thought I would even admit let alone change.
> 
> *She needed to be willing to lose me* sooner to speed up the process.
> 
> In my situation I didn't cheat but I did blame her for everything. When she started to beat me up *and was ready to lose me*, I had to take REAL responsibility for MY issues. *Without real repercussions I would never have gotten here.*
> 
> By real change I mean, changing the way I process issues and feelings and how I communicate those to my wife. I don't carry stuff around and become resentful or angry. I actually relieved myself of "things" that subconsciously drove my conscious actions. The result is more genuine actions.
> 
> We are 7+ years past me leaving.
> The issue I had for leaving is still there but my communication has gotten to where its not a deal breaker and I recognize the value of our vows.


Dday,

This is the way it goes for everybody.

She has to know that you TRULY are ready to end this marriage. That you really will do it. Sometimes that takes having them served with divorce papers. Sometimes nothing you can do will wake them up. It helps her to believe you are ready to end it if that is actually how you feel.

Problem is, when you do actually feel that way, your love for your wife will have decreased to a point that YOU will no longer want to stay married to her.


----------



## jim123

Dday said:


> She will have it done by today. We have been busy but she has been stonewalling me as well. I am about to leave for a few hours and I expect it when I get back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have to realize an affair is an addiction. She has very positive memories of the affair and OM.

On the reconciliation thread you will find many had more than one D day. Most did exactly what you are doing now.

Everyone thinks they are the excection and no one is.

Addictions usually end when the person hits bottom. Your wife does want to stop and is now honest.

Short any consequences the power of the addiction will over take her. It is the way addictions work unless there is strong intervention.

R is possible, just not likely in how you are going about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

bfree said:


> Dday,
> 
> When I was a young boy I would often visit my aunt and uncles house. They lived in a rural area whereas my parents lived in a congested part of the city. They spoiled me a little and I really enjoyed staying with them sometimes even for several weeks at a time. My aunt had planted a forsythia bush along one side of the house as it happens right under the window of the bedroom I slept in. Every morning during the spring and summer I would wake up to the sweet fragrance of those beautiful yellow flowers knowing that I was safe and loved. To this day every time I see a forsythia bush I think of those times. When I smell the pungent aroma of those beautiful yellow flowers I think back to those carefree days of my youth. Do you have similar memories and triggers? Because your wife's best friend is that kind of memory trigger for her affair.
> 
> Every time she sees her she is seeing the face of her lover. Every time she hears her voice its her lover's voice whispering things like "I love you" and "I want you" in her ear. Every time she hugs her best friend she is having the most exciting sex in her life yet again. Do you see what I'm trying to get you to understand here? How do you expect your wife to emerge from her fog if she is constantly being put back in it? How can she work to reconnect with you if she is still connecting with the memories of her affair? If you do not ensure no contact with not only her lover but also her lover's sister then the best you can ever hope for is limbo and a slow lingering death for your marriage.


Bfree put this beautifully.

That was until about 2 years ago when I encouraged her to get a hobby, she did with kick boxing. She got in the best shape of her life, even before the 3 kids and started running 5ks and other mud runs and stuff. The bf was into these runs as well and that is how their friendship got so close.

Maybe you should encourage your wife to workout now to relieve some of the stress, not with BF of course. Hard exercise will give her an endogenous morphine charge. Tell her that her workout is preparing her run the race to save your family. Maybe you can even run together.

You are getting a lot of feedback and you making progress. The MC, if she is any good, will be impressed by your understanding of the situation.


----------



## Dday

Will_Kane said:


> We all know she has been stonewalling you. We all have been where you are already.
> 
> The reason she has been stonewalling you is because, as you have said you suspect, she still has not told you the truth about the things you want her to put in the statement.
> 
> She still is holding out hope for a future with the other man and intends to cheat with him again, so she doesn't want to put any consequences for herself if she does.
> 
> Be prepared mentally that the statement will not include all the things you asked for. Based on what you posted, your wife is not ready to give you the truth or commit her lies to writing. She is SAYING all the right things to placate you, but in her head she is still pondering all of the possibilities. She has not decided to reconcile with you yet, she just doesn't want to close that door or force you to divorce her, so she is giving you lip service while she weighs her options. If other man had a job and could support her, she would be with him now.
> 
> You would think it is easy enough for her to lie and just write whatever you say, but for some reason the cheaters don't like to put their lies in writing, maybe because they know you will use it against them later and they won't be able to weasel their way out of it.
> 
> Be prepared for what you will do if the statement she writes is not good enough for you. This is a common problem, almost no cheater can do this UNLESS they truly have decided to give up the affair and really see the other man for the POS he is. Yours has not and does not.
> 
> If the statement is not good enough, you may have to sit with her and go over it step by step, she writes it while you watch and you correct her as she goes. Yes, it can be that bad. She is an intelligent woman, teaches kids, but she won't be able to do this simple task to your satisfaction. She will drag her feet and not put in there what you have asked.
> 
> When you sit with her and go over it point by point, THEN you may get a better glimpse into what is going on inside of her head.


I got the statement last night. It was good and I know how difficult it was for her to put it into writing. We have MC tomorrow morning and I'm a little nervous how that is going to go. I've never been to any kind of shrink and I usually wait until the last minute before I go the doctors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Dday said:


> I got the statement last night. It was good and I know how difficult it was for her to put it into writing. We have MC tomorrow morning and I'm a little nervousness how that is going to go. I've never been to any kind of shrink and I usually wait until the last minute before I go the doctors.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's going to be a roller coaster. It's best to prepare for the waves now. You'll have days where you'll feel that things are good, days that you hate the sight of her, and days you'll hate yourself for sticking it out. 

In addition to the MC, it's a good idea to seek out an IC who can help.


----------



## Will_Kane

Dday said:


> I got the statement last night. It was good and I know how difficult it was for her to put it into writing. We have MC tomorrow morning and I'm a little nervous how that is going to go. I've never been to any kind of shrink and I usually wait until the last minute before I go the doctors.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good. I didn't think she would do it. Don't let the MC blame you for anything your wife did. You each are responsible for your own actions, and you can't make her do, or not do, anything. She chose to have the affair, whatever the situation was in your marriage, she had other choices besides breaking her vows and having an affair.


----------



## Woman13

Hi There,

I just wanted to give you my two cents since there is a lot of negativity regarding you wanting to stay with your wife. 

I am in your wife's shoes....I always swore that cheating was the WORST thing anyone could ever do and I swore that would never be me...and then one day, it was. I remember not even realizing how it happened, but all at once I was sucked into it and it lasted about 4 months. I finally was able to break it off, but right afterwards my husband and I got pregnant with our little girl, so I decided not to tell him about it until after we had her and she was 9 months old. However, after I finally got out of that horrible cloud of infidelity, I knew that more than anything I wanted to be with my husband. I knew he had suspected something, and it was tearing us apart. Telling him was the hardest thing I have ever done, and it was so incredibly scary, but it was the right thing to do. We are in counseling and trying to work through things. We have good days, and some days it's really hard for him and he doesn't know what to do. However, my love for him is stronger than ever. And we are working on our marriage because there IS very strong love there and we want to salvage it. And we WILL. 

I tell you this because--like your wife, I was very, very wrong to do what I did. While it was happening I lost all rhyme and reason, but everything is very clear now. I KNOW that I will never let anything ever happen again--I will never go back to that awful place that I had at that point in my life, and I will stop at nothing to save our marriage.

We are human and not perfect--we all make mistakes--some bigger than others, and some WAY bigger than others. That doesn't mean that she doesn't truly love you. If you believe that she truly wants to work things out with you, then do your best to save your marriage. You married her for a reason, and if she truly repents of what she's done and wants to work through the marriage, as hard as it will be--if there is anything to salvage, then SALVAGE it. It may even make you stronger in the end Remember--she made a mistake, but SHE'S not the mistake. She's a good person and will come to help you see that again. It will just take some time.


----------



## Chaparral

Why was it hard for her to write and sign the statement? Do you have a concern about that? Was it a lack of enthusiasm?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Woman13 said:


> ...
> I tell you this because--like your wife, I was very, very wrong to do what I did. While it was happening I lost all rhyme and reason, but everything is very clear now. I KNOW that I will never let anything ever happen again--I will never go back to that awful place that I had at that point in my life, and I will stop at nothing to save our marriage...


Like you, I have the feeling that she might be real in her intentions. I hope everything is going well for you.

...

So Dday, I think you are going to do OK, even if the bf stay's in the picture. If she has a real love for OM because his total different emotional posture compared to you, then you cannot change that. In her case I think you have to let her go.

But I understand that you have to grow to be a more attractive husband to her, and NMMNG is doing it for you. So there is you chance. There is a point in shocking some one out of the FOG, but in some cases that would not work. Maybe here it is a case of communicating to her that if she wants to go, then just go and live with OM. You only want her if she truly chooses you. So be open with her. 

But change yourself anyway. For her or the next one who will love you.


----------



## warlock07

Woman13 said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I just wanted to give you my two cents since there is a lot of negativity regarding you wanting to stay with your wife.
> 
> I am in your wife's shoes....I always swore that cheating was the WORST thing anyone could ever do and I swore that would never be me...and then one day, it was. * I remember not even realizing how it happened, but all at once I was sucked into it and it lasted about 4 months. I finally was able to break it off, but right afterwards my husband and I got pregnant with our little girl, so I decided not to tell him about it until after we had her and she was 9 months old.* However, after I finally got out of that horrible cloud of infidelity, I knew that more than anything I wanted to be with my husband. I knew he had suspected something, and it was tearing us apart. Telling him was the hardest thing I have ever done, and it was so incredibly scary, but it was the right thing to do. We are in counseling and trying to work through things. We have good days, and some days it's really hard for him and he doesn't know what to do. However, my love for him is stronger than ever. And we are working on our marriage because there IS very strong love there and we want to salvage it. And we WILL.
> 
> I tell you this because--like your wife, I was very, very wrong to do what I did. While it was happening I lost all rhyme and reason, but everything is very clear now. I KNOW that I will never let anything ever happen again--I will never go back to that awful place that I had at that point in my life, and I will stop at nothing to save our marriage.
> 
> We are human and not perfect--we all make mistakes--some bigger than others, and some WAY bigger than others. That doesn't mean that she doesn't truly love you. If you believe that she truly wants to work things out with you, then do your best to save your marriage. You married her for a reason, and if she truly repents of what she's done and wants to work through the marriage, as hard as it will be--if there is anything to salvage, then SALVAGE it. It may even make you stronger in the end Remember--she made a mistake, but SHE'S not the mistake. She's a good person and will come to help you see that again. It will just take some time.


So you decided to trap him with a kid ? Or don't you realize that you did that ?

Had you confessed before the pregnancy, he probably would have left you. 

Also, you just suddenly don't have a 4 month affair. You have a sudden drunk ONS


----------



## JCD

Woman13 said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I just wanted to give you my two cents since there is a lot of negativity regarding you wanting to stay with your wife.
> 
> I am in your wife's shoes....I always swore that cheating was the WORST thing anyone could ever do and I swore that would never be me...and then one day, it was. I remember not even realizing how it happened, but all at once I was sucked into it and it lasted about 4 months. I finally was able to break it off, but right afterwards my husband and I got pregnant with our little girl, so I decided not to tell him about it until after we had her and she was 9 months old. However, after I finally got out of that horrible cloud of infidelity, I knew that more than anything I wanted to be with my husband. I knew he had suspected something, and it was tearing us apart. Telling him was the hardest thing I have ever done, and it was so incredibly scary, but it was the right thing to do. We are in counseling and trying to work through things. We have good days, and some days it's really hard for him and he doesn't know what to do. However, my love for him is stronger than ever. And we are working on our marriage because there IS very strong love there and we want to salvage it. And we WILL.
> 
> I tell you this because--like your wife, I was very, very wrong to do what I did. While it was happening I lost all rhyme and reason, but everything is very clear now. I KNOW that I will never let anything ever happen again--I will never go back to that awful place that I had at that point in my life, and I will stop at nothing to save our marriage.
> 
> We are human and not perfect--we all make mistakes--some bigger than others, and some WAY bigger than others. That doesn't mean that she doesn't truly love you. If you believe that she truly wants to work things out with you, then do your best to save your marriage. You married her for a reason, and if she truly repents of what she's done and wants to work through the marriage, as hard as it will be--if there is anything to salvage, then SALVAGE it. It may even make you stronger in the end Remember--she made a mistake, but SHE'S not the mistake. She's a good person and will come to help you see that again. It will just take some time.


Thank you for this.

It's bad. It happens. Life is not over for anyone and people can move on from this.

You were a bad person but you didn't need to STAY a bad person. I'm glad your husband could get beyond this. I am not sure I would have his strength.

You obviously know you are out of free passes. What techniques do you use to avoid falling into the same trap?

And I hope you helped your husband to stick a shiv in your affair partner.


----------



## Suspecting

Dday said:


> First I would torture him until he told us everything he knows about every terrorist group he has ever been involved in. Then I would televise his death on tv. It wouldn't be a quick painless death either, it would be like the scene from Law Abiding Citizen.


You sound like a psychopath. :scratchhead:


----------



## cpacan

Woman13 said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I just wanted to give you my two cents since there is a lot of negativity regarding you wanting to stay with your wife.
> 
> I am in your wife's shoes....*I always swore that cheating was the WORST thing anyone could ever do and I swore that would never be me...and then one day, it was.* I remember not even realizing how it happened, but all at once I was sucked into it and it lasted about 4 months. I finally was able to break it off, but right afterwards my husband and I got pregnant with our little girl, so I decided not to tell him about it until after we had her and she was 9 months old. However, after I finally got out of that horrible cloud of infidelity, I knew that more than anything I wanted to be with my husband. I knew he had suspected something, and it was tearing us apart. Telling him was the hardest thing I have ever done, and it was so incredibly scary, but it was the right thing to do. We are in counseling and trying to work through things. We have good days, and some days it's really hard for him and he doesn't know what to do. However, my love for him is stronger than ever. And we are working on our marriage because there IS very strong love there and we want to salvage it. And we WILL.
> 
> I tell you this because--like your wife, I was very, very wrong to do what I did. While it was happening I lost all rhyme and reason, but everything is very clear now. *I KNOW that I will never let anything ever happen again--I will never go back to that awful place that I had at that point in my life, and I will stop at nothing to save our marriage.*
> 
> We are human and not perfect--we all make mistakes--some bigger than others, and some WAY bigger than others. That doesn't mean that she doesn't truly love you. If you believe that she truly wants to work things out with you, then do your best to save your marriage. You married her for a reason, and if she truly repents of what she's done and wants to work through the marriage, as hard as it will be--if there is anything to salvage, then SALVAGE it. It may even make you stronger in the end Remember--she made a mistake, but SHE'S not the mistake. She's a good person and will come to help you see that again. It will just take some time.


Thanks for sharing, it's always enlightening to get perspective from WS. I really don't like the way your husband was trapped with your pregnancy, and you withholding the information.

Enough of that. I would be really interested to hear, as a BS, but I think OP would be interested in this too, how do you KNOW that you won't cheat again? I mean, You say yourself that you also knew it before you cheated - so how can you know it any better now? And equally important - how can your husband know that (or at least feel confident that it won't happen again)?


----------



## LongWalk

Suspecting said:


> You sound like a psychopath. :scratchhead:


Actually this bizarre statement is very out of character for Dday. Perhaps he is overcompensating because he has been called a softy by so many posters.

Dday will you share the what your wife wrote? Does it match what you knew previously? Is is more or less revealing? What percentage of it is true?


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Actually this bizarre statement is very out of character for Dday. Perhaps he is overcompensating because he has been called a softy by so many posters.
> 
> Dday will you share the what your wife wrote? Does it match what you knew previously? Is is more or less revealing? What percentage of it is true?


There were a few details that I thought she would still lie about. I listed them a couple of pages back. I wanted her to write a statement that she was telling the truth on each statement and to be detailed. Also included in the statement was that if I found she lied about anything in the statement I would have full custody of our kids. She wrote everything I wanted and signed and dated it. She did not want to or feel comfortable giving up the kids but she said she wasn't lying. I didnt make her promise anything in the future it was just what has already happened. It was really to confirm what she told me and to make her put it in writing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

cpacan said:


> Thanks for sharing, it's always enlightening to get perspective from WS.* I really don't like the way your husband was trapped with your pregnancy, and you withholding the information.*
> 
> Enough of that. I would be really interested to hear, as a BS, but I think OP would be interested in this too, how do you KNOW that you won't cheat again? I mean, You say yourself that you also knew it before you cheated - so how can you know it any better now? And equally important - how can your husband know that (or at least feel confident that it won't happen again)?


Trapped it is. Though I wonder if it could also be the beginning of the end. He'll always wonder if the little girl is his.

I think once a person cheated, the second time is always easier.


----------



## aug

JCD said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> It's bad. It happens. Life is not over for anyone and people can move on from this.
> 
> You were a bad person but you didn't need to STAY a bad person. *I'm glad your husband could get beyond this. * I am not sure I would have his strength.
> 
> You obviously know you are out of free passes. What techniques do you use to avoid falling into the same trap?
> 
> And I hope you helped your husband to stick a shiv in your affair partner.



She *thinks *her husband can get beyond it.


----------



## ShootMePlz!

Probably talked to a lawyer who said its the judge who decides custody and the paper is worthless unfortunately!!


----------



## LongWalk

Dday said:


> There were a few details that I thought she would still lie about. I listed them a couple of pages back. I wanted her to write a statement that she was telling the truth on each statement and to be detailed. Also included in the statement was that if I found she lied about anything in the statement I would have full custody of our kids. She wrote everything I wanted and signed and dated it. She did not want to or feel comfortable giving up the kids but she said she wasn't lying. I didnt make her promise anything in the future it was just what has already happened. It was really to confirm what she told me and to make her put it in writing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps I am reading too much into a few of your recent posts, but I sense that you are suffering fatigue. The so-called trickle truth, i.e., you had to chase her for the statement, is a factor making you less optimistic about R. Have you come to the stage that you want to see "heavy lifting" from her and she is not trying that hard?

She seems apathetic. If this is true, is her apathy is depressing your love for her. If told her to go out and run for 40 minutes, would she do it?


----------



## Dday

There has been no trickle truth since 2 days after Dday. The statement was consistent with what she has said since the beginning. 

We had our first MC session today and it went really good. I do want her to do more heavy lifting and that was discussed today. This will be my last post for a little while as the MC wants me to try to work on a few things. I thank everyone for their help and will update in a week or so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Update....

Things have been pretty good the last 2 weeks, or at least as good as they can be. I read mmsl and have to say that book has helped me ALOT. I see where I went wrong with our marriage and the changes I made are already paying off. 

We had a nice night out without the kids where we slept at our shore house. It was fun trying to "date" my wife again. Our lives at home are hectic but we are making the most of our time together when the kids go to sleep. I have been stepping up my text game and never realized how fun that could be. 

Overall, I have not been thinking much about the A. If I do have questions I limit them to 5 minutes of discussion but there really isn't much more to answer.


----------



## LongWalk

Nice. If your wife is going to remain at the same school, would you consider meeting her BFF and asking her to write a letter of apology, including an outline of what happened?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Nice. If your wife is going to remain at the same school, would you consider meeting her BFF and asking her to write a letter of apology, including an outline of what happened?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have met with the BFF and it is tough for her as well. As of right now I don't have anything to worry about with the OM, however I can never let my guard down. I don't think if I asked for a letter of apology that it would be sincere, and she doesn't know exactly what was going on. She didn't know about the burner phone or how much they texted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Great posts. You sound like a very different person now. Much stronger and more certain of youself. By sharing this you can inspire and help others.

BFF is less than sincere.. Good that you are not cloudy on this point. Given the fact that your wife is not going to change jobs, for the time being you have with open eyes accepted that NC with her is impossible.

Am I correct in recalling that she is a single mother? How did she get into this situation? Is she attractive? Do you see her growing as a person? What does your wife hope for her? Would you feel comfortable introducing a single buddy to her? Could that lead to her being a happier person and a less destructive influence on your wife.

That would be the ultimate alpha response to the situation: you taking a leadership role instead having to separate your wife from her. If you feel that you would not be doing a guy you respected any favor by setting him up with her, how would you interpret that?

The questions are a bit leading, I know, but I think you are thinking out of the box and it would be interesting to hear what you think.


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Great posts. You sound like a very different person now. Much stronger and more certain of youself. By sharing this you can inspire and help others.
> 
> BFF is less than sincere.. Good that you are not cloudy on this point. Given the fact that your wife is not going to change jobs, for the time being you have with open eyes accepted that NC with her is impossible.
> 
> Am I correct in recalling that she is a single mother? How did she get into this situation? Is she attractive? Do you see her growing as a person? What does your wife hope for her? Would you feel comfortable introducing a single buddy to her? Could that lead to her being a happier person and a less destructive influence on your wife.
> 
> That would be the ultimate alpha response to the situation: you taking a leadership role instead having to separate your wife from her. If you feel that you would not be doing a guy you respected any favor by setting him up with her, how would you interpret that?
> 
> The questions are a bit leading, I know, but I think you are thinking out of the box and it would be interesting to hear what you think.


Yes, she is a single mother, her ex had a drug problem and was the reason the brother/OM got hooked. They divorced when she couldn't take it anymore. She has hooked up with my brother in the past but I don't see that going anywhere. More because my brother isnt ready to settle down. As for growing as a person I think she has and I do think she wishes she handled this differently. I know that the affair was hidden to her the whole time and by the time she was sure it was going on it was too late and she was in a impossible situation. We don't really hang out without my wife being there and short of a phone call there weren't any possibilities for her to tell me. There was one night I could tell she wanted to tell me something when they were at my house and she just looked at me with a sad like I feel bad for you look. 

I'm not really a match maker but I would introduce her to a friend if the opportunity arose. Although that would be a interesting wedding party if it got to that point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

Just wanted to update as it has been over 2 months from dday now. 

As time is going by the triggers are not becoming any less, if anything they are more often and stronger. I feel that my wife is doing everything she possibly can except for a couple missteps but nothing seems good enough for me. 

I love my wife, love our family I just want to let all this go... But I can't. It has consumed me for the last 2 1/2 months and I see no end in sight. 

I'm constantly thinking about what she would be doing if I hadn't found out. What new lies would she be telling, how she would of been using our shore house to spend time with him since he has no job and she has summers off. I'll be in a good spot mentally with her and I can't stay there. 

I have recently confided in a women about what was going on with us while I was drinking. It felt good to talk to someone but she since texted me looking to talk more and I ended up telling my wife about it. I didn't want anything to become of it and felt bad about telling our business to someone else. My wife now is very suspicious of all of my actions even though I told her I have no intentions of cheating. I was upfront with everything and showed her all of the texts. 

I really want to make this work and she does too, just the stress of what she did weighs heavily everyday on both of us.


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## warlock07

> . My wife now is very suspicious of all of my actions even though I told her I have no intentions of cheating.


What do you mean by suspicious ?

She is probably trying to re-balance the power she lost during this infidelity incident. "See, it is not like you are perfect. You would have cheated in the right circumstances too. You talked to this woman about our marriage. That is betrayal too!!"

Make sure you shut her down quick if this is the angle she is trying. What is she trying to do to help you ?


----------



## LostViking

What kind of heavy lifting has your wife been doing? How does she help you with your triggers?

It sounds to me like you are in th beginning stages of detachment. As you become emotionally detached from her the triggers sometimes increase. It is a subliminal process. It could be your love for her is dying whether you choose to believe it or not. That's what happens when a spouse cheats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Do you have a trusted therapist or councilor you could turn to , in addition to TAM, to talk through what you are feeling?

Btw everything you are feeling is 100% normal.


----------



## Openminded

It can take a very long to truly R and some of us never really manage it. Don't expect to be over this in a few months. 

P.S.
You see now how easy it is to slip. Drinking and confiding your problems in another woman is often the first step. If you want to talk about your problems, do so with a therapist.


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## badmemory

Dday said:


> Just wanted to update as it has been over 2 months from dday now.
> 
> As time is going by the triggers are not becoming any less, if anything they are more often and stronger. I feel that my wife is doing everything she possibly can except for a couple missteps but nothing seems good enough for me.
> 
> I love my wife, love our family I just want to let all this go... But I can't. It has consumed me for the last 2 1/2 months and I see no end in sight.
> 
> I'm constantly thinking about what she would be doing if I hadn't found out. What new lies would she be telling, how she would of been using our shore house to spend time with him since he has no job and she has summers off. I'll be in a good spot mentally with her and I can't stay there.
> 
> I have recently confided in a women about what was going on with us while I was drinking. It felt good to talk to someone but she since texted me looking to talk more and I ended up telling my wife about it. I didn't want anything to become of it and felt bad about telling our business to someone else. My wife now is very suspicious of all of my actions even though I told her I have no intentions of cheating. I was upfront with everything and showed her all of the texts.
> 
> I really want to make this work and she does too, just the stress of what she did weighs heavily everyday on both of us.


I suspect that if you are like I was, you are just now settling in to the reality of what happened - as the initial hysterical bonding period wanes; and this waking up to the realty of it all will probably continue for months. 

Many BS's, particularly men, go through this initial period that can best be described as a strong desire to "reclaim their territory". Combine this with the shock and fear of rejection and the associated knee jerk reaction to want to end the pain - thus a quick agreement to R and a brief honeymoon like period.

But as I mentioned, hysterical bonding is only temporary. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but when it ends you'll find it's replaced with seemingly never ending mind movies, lingering doubts, regrets for how you handled things, and low self esteem. 

The best prescription for enduring this next period is a truly remorseful wife. Talk to her and let her know how you're feeling. Don't hold it in. If she demonstrates consistent remorse and patience, over time, hopefully things will get better for you.


----------



## BURNT KEP

Dday said:


> Just wanted to update as it has been over 2 months from dday now.
> 
> As time is going by the triggers are not becoming any less, if anything they are more often and stronger. I feel that my wife is doing everything she possibly can except for a couple missteps but nothing seems good enough for me.
> 
> I love my wife, love our family I just want to let all this go... But I can't. It has consumed me for the last 2 1/2 months and I see no end in sight.
> 
> I'm constantly thinking about what she would be doing if I hadn't found out. What new lies would she be telling, how she would of been using our shore house to spend time with him since he has no job and she has summers off. I'll be in a good spot mentally with her and I can't stay there.
> 
> I have recently confided in a women about what was going on with us while I was drinking. It felt good to talk to someone but she since texted me looking to talk more and I ended up telling my wife about it. I didn't want anything to become of it and felt bad about telling our business to someone else. My wife now is very suspicious of all of my actions even though I told her I have no intentions of cheating. I was upfront with everything and showed her all of the texts.
> 
> I really want to make this work and she does too, just the stress of what she did weighs heavily everyday on both of us.


I am over one year past dday and only now have the triggers slowed down. It's not easy but finding someone to talk to does help.


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## Dday

warlock07 said:


> What do you mean by suspicious ?
> 
> She is probably trying to re-balance the power she lost during this infidelity incident. "See, it is not like you are perfect. You would have cheated in the right circumstances too. You talked to this woman about our marriage. That is betrayal too!!"
> 
> Make sure you shut her down quick if this is the angle she is trying. What is she trying to do to help you ?


She has been checking my phone, asking who in talking too where I'm going. I can't help but to laugh sometimes and that makes her even more suspicious and mad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

LostViking said:


> What kind of heavy lifting has your wife been doing? How does she help you with your triggers?
> 
> It sounds to me like you are in th beginning stages of detachment. As you become emotionally detached from her the triggers sometimes increase. It is a subliminal process. It could be your love for her is dying whether you choose to believe it or not. That's what happens when a spouse cheats.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She probably can do more heavy lifting but she has been making an effort to stay up later for quality time, texting more, asking how I'm feeling and just genuinely caring about us and staying together. I told her that I talked about not knowing if I can make this work and how I was confused. This really scared her as I think she believed that I never would leave and she now knows I have doubts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

Shaggy said:


> Do you have a trusted therapist or councilor you could turn to , in addition to TAM, to talk through what you are feeling?
> 
> Btw everything you are feeling is 100% normal.


We have been going to MC and it has gone well. However it is together and I'm thinking I should go on my own once or twice
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

badmemory said:


> I suspect that if you are like I was, you are just now settling in to the reality of what happened - as the initial hysterical bonding period wanes; and this waking up to the realty of it all will probably continue for months.
> 
> Many BS's, particularly men, go through this initial period that can best be described as a strong desire to "reclaim their territory". Combine this with the shock and fear of rejection and the associated knee jerk reaction to want to end the pain - thus a quick agreement to R and a brief honeymoon like period.
> 
> But as I mentioned, hysterical bonding is only temporary. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but when it ends you'll find it's replaced with seemingly never ending mind movies, lingering doubts, regrets for how you handled things, and low self esteem.
> 
> The best prescription for enduring this next period is a truly remorseful wife. Talk to her and let her know how you're feeling. Don't hold it in. If she demonstrates consistent remorse and patience, over time, hopefully things will get better for you.


I think this described what I did spot on. I don't think it's a bad thing where we are at, but we definitely have a lot more work to do. 

I feel bad every time I bring it up because I can see the hurt in her eyes as well. She is ashamed and embarrassed at what she did, so I often just pretend everything is fine. I have to do a better job telling her what I'm feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

transparency is a two way street so let her check your phone all she wants, the idea is to rebuild trust and while it appears hypocritical that she doesn't trust you the plain truth is that she's scared her actions may cause you to leave. It's a good consequence for her to have.


I often felt that my R hit harder times not immediately post DDay but rather months after. It's almost as if the reality becomes more clearer after some time and as a result you either get angrier or more detached during that period of 3-8 months post dday.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Dday said:


> I feel bad every time I bring it up because I can see the hurt in her eyes as well. She is ashamed and embarrassed at what she did, so I often just pretend everything is fine. I have to do a better job telling her what I'm feeling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


been there myself but ultimately if you want to heal you need to let her do the heavy lifting and accept the fact that she hurt you very badly and give her the opportunity to go out of her way to help you feel better. I suggest that you inform her that while you understand she is embarrassed and shameful at what she has done, that being proactive in atonement will go much further into helping you heal than wallowing in the self-pity.


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## Dday

Almostrecovered said:


> transparency is a two way street so let her check your phone all she wants, the idea is to rebuild trust and while it appears hypocritical that she doesn't trust you the plain truth is that she's scared her actions may cause you to leave. It's a good consequence for her to have.
> 
> 
> I often felt that my R hit harder times not immediately post DDay but rather months after. It's almost as if the reality becomes more clearer after some time and as a result you either get angrier or more detached during that period of 3-8 months post dday.


I give her my phone willingly. She has all my passwords to everything. I just laugh when she is quizzing me or snooping. It doesn't bother me at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Dday said:


> I give her my phone willingly. She has all my passwords to everything. I just laugh when she is quizzing me or snooping. *It doesn't bother me at all.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In reality it does. That is why you are still triggering.

Because you are still bothered by the Affair.

Completely normal.

And I think Individual Counselling is a great idea for you to vent and try to understand what is going on in your head.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

Dday said:


> She probably can do more heavy lifting but she has been making an effort to stay up later for quality time, texting more, asking how I'm feeling and just genuinely caring about us and staying together. I told her that I talked about not knowing if I can make this work and how I was confused. This really scared her as I think she believed that I never would leave and she now knows I have doubts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


After Dday she was sullen. Unable to connect with you emotionally due to strong attachment to OM. Her love for you didn't snap back. She must be sorry about that hesitancy today.

If you follow GutPunch's thread he is going through the same thing. Even sex triggers thoughts of the betrayal. He still wants to be dentist to one patient, the short dude who used his wife's drug addiction to score with her. He was also a former addict. There is also a guy whose nurse wife, also opiate dependent, cheated with another nurse addict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Would she leave you if you cheated? that should make an interesting question.


----------



## Dday

warlock07 said:


> Would she leave you if you cheated? that should make an interesting question.


I think she would but I'm not sure. I asked her and she had no definitive answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Dday said:


> I think she would but I'm not sure. I asked her and she had no definitive answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you value the relationship more than she does ?


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## BK23

warlock07 said:


> So you value the relationship more than she does ?


How is this helpful?


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## warlock07

think about it..


----------



## LongWalk

> After Dday she was sullen. Unable to connect with you emotionally due to strong attachment to OM. Her love for you didn't snap back. She must be sorry about that hesitancy today.


Or maybe it doesn't bother her. Does it bother you?


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## Dyokemm

DDay,

She can't give a definitive answer to the question of if she would leave because she knows or feels it would be total hypocrisy.

The answer is really yes, of course she would.

But she knows she can never voice that to you because it would paint her as a complete hypocrite who asks for forgiveness and a second chance with you, knowing that she would never extend the same opportunity to you.


----------



## LongWalk

This is the same sullen attitude. Would she give up BFF? Answer was no. Transfer schools, no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Devastated but.....*



BK23 said:


> How is this helpful?


Because whoever feels confident enough to walk away from a relationship holds the power in that relationship.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Almostrecovered said:


> been there myself but ultimately if you want to heal you need to let her do the heavy lifting and accept the fact that she hurt you very badly and give her the opportunity to go out of her way to help you feel better. I suggest that you inform her that while you understand she is embarrassed and shameful at what she has done, that being proactive in atonement will go much further into helping you heal than wallowing in the self-pity.


:iagree:

This was when things really began to change for us. When the topic was no longer avoided. We spoke about it nightly for about a month. Sometimes calmly, sometimes he was really angry and sometimes I was a sobbing puddle of tears horrified at what I had done.

Avoiding it lessens the impact but it just pushes all that hurt in to the closet where it festers. Eventually, it's gotta come out in to the light to be faced down.


----------



## Dday

Dyokemm said:


> DDay,
> 
> She can't give a definitive answer to the question of if she would leave because she knows or feels it would be total hypocrisy.
> 
> The answer is really yes, of course she would.
> 
> But she knows she can never voice that to you because it would paint her as a complete hypocrite who asks for forgiveness and a second chance with you, knowing that she would never extend the same opportunity to you.


If she says "no" then it is giving me a free pass to cheat which I'm not looking for. If she says "yes" then as you said she is a hypocrite.


----------



## LongWalk

Dday said:


> If she says "no" then it is giving me a free pass to cheat which I'm not looking for. If she says "yes" then as you said she is a hypocrite.


Why do you think a "no" is pass to cheat? It is simply an admission that she would not have the strength do divorce you, although she would have to bear terrible pain. She would be admitting that she wants the relationship more than you.

Part of the reason that she would leave you if you cheated is because she values you for your integrity. If you jetisoned your principles to punish her – because at this point it would be an revenge affair rather than affair purely for pleasure – it would betray her faith in your generosity of heart. It would be too big a disappointment.

She may or may not be trying to be as generous towards you.

A small child may strike a parent in anger with all its strength but still love him/her without reserve. The child cannot (but sometimes must) accept malicious violence from its father or mother. This is not hypocrisy on the part of the child. The parties are unequal.

Do you think your wife feels herself to be fully accountable adult?


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Why do you think a "no" is pass to cheat? It is simply an admission that she would not have the strength do divorce you, although she would have to bear terrible pain. She would be admitting that she wants the relationship more than you.
> 
> Part of the reason that she would leave you if you cheated is because she values you for your integrity. If you jetisoned your principles to punish her – because at this point it would be an revenge affair rather than affair purely for pleasure – it would betray her faith in your generosity of heart. It would be too big a disappointment.
> 
> She may or may not be trying to be as generous towards you.
> 
> A small child may strike a parent in anger with all its strength but still love him/her without reserve. The child cannot (but sometimes must) accept malicious violence from its father or mother. This is not hypocrisy on the part of the child. The parties are unequal.
> 
> Do you think your wife feels herself to be fully accountable adult?


Yes, she has taken full responsibility for her affair and apologizes every time it is brought up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting

I think the only right answer to the question is "I don't know". She can't know until she actually goes through it.


----------



## 6301

D Day.
I have a suggestion. I know you don't want her to take a polygraph test but, After 39 pages and a few months, you still have your doubts and you should. Why don't you just make an appointment and have her take one. Explain to her that this is only for some peace of mind for you. You deserve to know if there is anything hidden. You can write the questions down that you want the person who is giving the test to your wife and if she passes it, then you can have some peace of mind rather than always wondering if there is something that she isn't telling you. If your wife is being honest with you and SHE REALLY WANTS TO MAKE THE MARRIAGE RIGHT, then she will take it. If she gets all bent out of shape and balks, well then you know that something is wrong. 
Do you really want to live under a giant question mark all your life? It's not a healthy way to live and I know your worried about your kids but, kids have ears, brains, eyes and sooner or later know that their parents aren't on the same page and believe me, they pick it up without you or the Mrs knowing about it. You were a kid and so was I and you knew when something was wrong. 
The polygraph is to your benefit and your wife if she's really truthful. If she passes the test, then you don't have to beat her over the head every day and you and her can start to heal and raise your children in a peaceful home. If she's lying, well then you said you know what your deal breakers are. The ball will be in your court and then you can decide what to do. 
If and I say if your wife is not telling the truth and you leave, it doesn't matter if your not under the same roof with your kids just as long as they know that you love them more than anything in this world and will always be there for them. I have been divorced for 21 years. My wife and I divorced when my daughter was 6. She's now 27 and we have an outstanding relationship. Matter in fact, she stopped in tonight and took me out to dinner for Fathers day. If your a good Dad, you'll NEVER lose your children. You need this done ASAP.


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## LongWalk

Dday, your battle to save your family was especially hard because of the circumstances. The close relationship of your wife's BFF and the your children being together with hers meant there was heavy emotional tonnage supporting the affair. Putting the brakes on that weight was really tough.

No wonder you don't feel fully secure. Maybe the biggest problem is not so much that you really feel a need to cheat so much as you wish your wife had grown more as a person. Do you feel she could be more caring toward you in an adult fashion? Has she put that party chick to rest out of new-found maturity, or is she just steadier because you have an eye on her all the time?


----------



## Mustbecrazy

With six weeks to go until school starts, I think you should seriously consider having your wife change schools. Otherwise, the bf will serve as a continual conduit between your wife and the OM.


----------



## Mustbecrazy

Talking to a female acquaintance about your marriage is a big no-no, and the first step to an EA, and, if I were you, I'd apologize, but do it like a boss, short and sweet. You shouldn't discuss any of this with someone who isn't a friend of your marriage. I'm sure your wife feels this as a betrayal.


----------



## Dday

6301 said:


> D Day.
> I have a suggestion. I know you don't want her to take a polygraph test but, After 39 pages and a few months, you still have your doubts and you should. Why don't you just make an appointment and have her take one. Explain to her that this is only for some peace of mind for you. You deserve to know if there is anything hidden. You can write the questions down that you want the person who is giving the test to your wife and if she passes it, then you can have some peace of mind rather than always wondering if there is something that she isn't telling you. If your wife is being honest with you and SHE REALLY WANTS TO MAKE THE MARRIAGE RIGHT, then she will take it. If she gets all bent out of shape and balks, well then you know that something is wrong.
> Do you really want to live under a giant question mark all your life? It's not a healthy way to live and I know your worried about your kids but, kids have ears, brains, eyes and sooner or later know that their parents aren't on the same page and believe me, they pick it up without you or the Mrs knowing about it. You were a kid and so was I and you knew when something was wrong.
> The polygraph is to your benefit and your wife if she's really truthful. If she passes the test, then you don't have to beat her over the head every day and you and her can start to heal and raise your children in a peaceful home. If she's lying, well then you said you know what your deal breakers are. The ball will be in your court and then you can decide what to do.
> If and I say if your wife is not telling the truth and you leave, it doesn't matter if your not under the same roof with your kids just as long as they know that you love them more than anything in this world and will always be there for them. I have been divorced for 21 years. My wife and I divorced when my daughter was 6. She's now 27 and we have an outstanding relationship. Matter in fact, she stopped in tonight and took me out to dinner for Fathers day. If your a good Dad, you'll NEVER lose your children. You need this done ASAP.


I have used this as a threat in the first day and she put up a fight but agreed. She did reveal more after I brought it up. I am probably going to threaten again as I still have doubts about a few things. However, I don't know if I can justify spending the money on the test because the test is only 80% accurate if your lucky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## workindad

Following through with the test is an action that shows you are serious and a consequence for her to face. 

Also, it gives you an opportunity for another rememberance of details. You may be surprised at how effective that is. 

However bluffing about a poly repeatedly will likely result on her calling your bluff by continuing to hide information from you without fear of discovery. 

Good luck
WD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Dday said:


> I have used this as a threat in the first day and she put up a fight but agreed. She did reveal more after I brought it up. I am probably going to threaten again as I still have doubts about a few things. However, I don't know if I can justify spending the money on the test because the test is only 80% accurate if your lucky.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you threaten and don't follow through she quickly learns that your threats are hollow, and she will ignore them.

You say it's only 85% accurate as if the disqualifies it as a useful tool. Right now you have 0% accuracy on your own with telling what is true or false from her. 85% would be a huge jump.


----------



## turnera

Dday said:


> I have used this as a threat in the first day and she put up a fight but agreed. She did reveal more after I brought it up. I am probably going to threaten again as I still have doubts about a few things. However, I don't know if I can justify spending the money on the test because the test is only 80% accurate if your lucky.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Don't threaten. That makes you look weak and needy - the kind of guy women cheat on.

Just make an appointment for the damn thing. TRUST me, you'll get 90% of what you want to know _on the way to_ the test.


----------



## Dday

I've been trying to stay away from the boards as checking and posting everyday wasnt really helping me. I do appreciate all of the advice and will continue to update. 

I left some information out of this thread and will reveal that now. I guess I did because the overall sense I got was that Divorce was the only option and this makes my situation look even worse. 

So here is my full timeline:

12/21/11
I caught her texting at 3:00am after she was out with friends and she came home. I went for the phone and she went to bathroom and deleted all the messages. I couldn't sleep and checked phone records online and found a number she was calling for 6 months late at night and when I was out of town. I did reverse lookups and came up with 2 names. 

Long story short but I grilled her for days/weeks/months and she only admitted to talking to him and made lies about how it was her friend who was having an affair with him. At the time our youngest was 1 and I had no fear of an affair and didn't even know what a EA was. All contact ended at that time and things went back to normal. I never bought the story and continued for months asking her to call the number in front of me but it never happened. 

Feb 2013
I am on her Facebook account and she gets a private message from one of the names from the reverse lookup. He is not a friend of anyone we know so I know it's not a friendly text. I tried to start conversation but nothing incriminating was said. She now admitted to lying and an EA of sorts but I still didn't even know what that was. She said she liked the attention blah blah blah. I was pissed and didn't buy the **** she was saying but had nothing concrete. The message said something like "do I know you" or something like that and I don't think there was contact since 12/21/11. 

3/29/13
Was my Dday when I found the phone. She was having an affair with a 2nd guy since 6/2012. Everything i posted about this original story is true and i didnt leave anything out. After she admitted to this affair I asked about the first guy and she denied. I persisted and she finally admitted to 1 time with him in 12/2011. 

She was disgusted by that affair as it was just about sex and no emotional connection was made. Even though the 2nd was much more serious and bothers me more i can tell she feels sick when i bring up the first one. I have trouble believing it was only once as the calls were going on for 6 months in 2011 with him. I know this makes things look much worse and I wish I found this site back in 2011. There is also one other guy I suspect as she was close friends with a guy from her kickboxing class but they barely talk now. I might be overreacting or paranoid with him but the fact is I have doubts about our whole relationship now. 

The last 4 months have been a roller coaster. She is trying everything I ask but I just get mad that I have to tell her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BK23

In light of the full story, I think you absolutely need a Poly. She's told you the bare minimum of what is plausible--classic trickle truth. You need to know if there were others. You can't successfully R with partial information.


----------



## turnera

Has she thrown out her FB account? Do you have a keylogger on her computer that you check regularly? Has she found an IC and a MC and made appointments and ATTENDED? Has she found a polygraphy company and scheduled an appointment? Has she called her parents and your parents and admitted what she did and apologized and asked their forgiveness? Has she removed all passwords? Does she inform you whereever she goes? Does she have a set schedule that you can tell if she deviates from? 

If she hasn't done this, just move on. You are her safe landing, nothing more.


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## Dday

turnera said:


> Don't threaten. That makes you look weak and needy - the kind of guy women cheat on.
> 
> Just make an appointment for the damn thing. TRUST me, you'll get 90% of what you want to know _on the way to_ the test.


If I use it again it will be with an appointment set up. I haven't mentioned it since the week after Dday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday

turnera said:


> Has she thrown out her FB account? Do you have a keylogger on her computer that you check regularly? Has she found an IC and a MC and made appointments and ATTENDED? Has she found a polygraphy company and scheduled an appointment? Has she called her parents and your parents and admitted what she did and apologized and asked their forgiveness? Has she removed all passwords? Does she inform you whereever she goes? Does she have a set schedule that you can tell if she deviates from?
> 
> If she hasn't done this, just move on. You are her safe landing, nothing more.


She still has FB which I have access too. All of her Internet use is from her phone and I've been checking. She never deletes history or cookies. She did set up MC and we went for about 6 sessions. It was helpful but got repetitive and will use again if needed. I have all passwords to emails and other accounts. Our parents don't know the magnitude of what's going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

She always told me where she was, and I verify with find my iPhone. Her schedule in the summer changes but she is with our 3 kids all day.


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## Dday

BK23 said:


> In light of the full story, I think you absolutely need a Poly. She's told you the bare minimum of what is plausible--classic trickle truth. You need to know if there were others. You can't successfully R with partial information.


She hasn't trickle truthed since the week of dday. Nothing new has come out and her story hasn't changed. There is just something inside of me telling me there is more. She has been remorseful and everything i ask she does. Sh has made it clear that she wants this to work. 

I'm afraid the poly wont change anything inside my head and I just have to learn to deal with what she did or leave. I know it can't hurt but I don't have $600 to throw away right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Dday said:


> Our parents don't know the magnitude of what's going on.


That's your biggest mistake. If she's not willing to admit what she did to them and beg forgiveness, she is using you.


----------



## turnera

Make her get a temporary job to get the money for a polygraph.


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## southernsurf

Dday said:


> She hasn't trickle truthed since the week of dday. Nothing new has come out and her story hasn't changed. *There is just something inside of me telling me there is more. *She has been remorseful and everything i ask she does. Sh has made it clear that she wants this to work.
> 
> I'm afraid the poly wont change anything inside my head and I just have to learn to deal with what she did or leave. I know it can't hurt but I don't have $600 to throw away right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry you are back again but not surprised, we knew this would happen, you are going through the 6-months of hell. It always amazes me how much damage the WS can do to a life. Don’t buckle, you’re in a tough spot with 3 kids, but also you need to get a hold of your own life. Don’t look for this to improve any time soon, unfortunately. Reread your thread, figure out you own needs and where your breaking point. This may not work, listen to the voice inside you.


----------



## LongWalk

Dday,

The new background information makes everything look far worse. The trickle truthing means you have no closure. The Thai kick boxing thing, that's your gut feeling and gut feeling is often right on. That is mother nature's way of protecting DNA.

Your wife is a serial cheater. She looks for both sex and emotion outside of your marriage. There's a hole she cannot fill with you. She is not good at monogamy. Once, didn't you post about having a revenge affair? Maybe it wasn't you.

Maybe the best thing would be to file for divorce. Tell her you're going to date. If she really wants to be married, she can date you, too.

I'll bet she has spilled the beans to her best friend. Instead of a polygraph, waste of money at this point, you could ask the friend to coffee with or without your wife. Tell her friend that your marriage is on the line and that you need to know everything she knows.

She'll say she cannot betray her friendship to your wife. You can say that you are going to divorce your wife if the whole truth doesn't come out. If your wife is there she can agree. If not you can offer to call your wife and ask her sanction her telling all to you. At the same time, tell your wife go somewhere else and sit at a computer and write down everything, so that you can compare the two versions.

They'll ask to wait. But you must insist that it is here and now. 

If they say no. Well, then you carry out the threat to divorce. 

This is worth doing if they have been best friends during the entire time.


----------



## BK23

LongWalk said:


> Dday,
> 
> The new background information makes everything look far worse. The trickle truthing means you have no closure. The Thai kick boxing thing, that's your gut feeling and gut feeling is often right on. That is mother nature's way of protecting DNA.
> 
> Your wife is a serial cheater. She looks for both sex and emotion outside of your marriage. There's a hole she cannot fill with you. She is not good at monogamy. Once, didn't you post about having a revenge affair? Maybe it wasn't you.
> 
> Maybe the best thing would be to file for divorce. Tell her you're going to date. If she really wants to be married, she can date you, too.
> 
> I'll bet she has spilled the beans to her best friend. Instead of a polygraph, waste of money at this point, you could ask the friend to coffee with or without your wife. Tell her friend that your marriage is on the line and that you need to know everything she knows.
> 
> She'll say she cannot betray her friendship to your wife. You can say that you are going to divorce your wife if the whole truth doesn't come out. If your wife is there she can agree. If not you can offer to call your wife and ask her sanction her telling all to you. At the same time, tell your wife go somewhere else and sit at a computer and write down everything, so that you can compare the two versions.
> 
> They'll ask to wait. But you must insist that it is here and now.
> 
> If they say no. Well, then you carry out the threat to divorce.
> 
> This is worth doing if they have been best friends during the entire time.



This sounds.... unrealistic to me. I really can't see getting the wife and friend to sit down and let this happen. A poly is so much easier and reliable.


----------



## LongWalk

BK23 said:


> This sounds.... unrealistic to me. I really can't see getting the wife and friend to sit down and let this happen. A poly is so much easier and reliable.


BK23,

Admittedly this is a bit of theater. However, this best friend has been privy to a lot of intimate secrets. She was an affair enabler. Now is her chance to help her friends' marriage.

Again, it is only worth doing if Dday thinks this girlfriend knows more than he does. And if he wants to push for an end to the TT.

Dday, I remember when stopped posting. You didn't leave happy back then although you said everything was fixed. It was a hard time. Going to the ballpark, knowing that her her brother was there.

Your wife takes your marriage for granted. Make her work for it. It's not unfair to file for divorce because of the TT.

Read Brokenshadow's thread. Also, GutPunch's. Both involve addiction.

Are you still confident that your wife did not do drugs with him?

Be strong. I think your wife will happy inside if you lay down the law. She wants tough love.


----------



## LongWalk

> After she admitted to this affair I asked about the first guy and she denied. I persisted and she finally admitted to 1 time with him in 12/2011.
> 
> She was disgusted by that affair as it was just about sex and no emotional connection was made. Even though the 2nd was much more serious and bothers me more i can tell she feels sick when i bring up the first one.* I have trouble believing it was only once as the calls were going on for 6 months in 2011 with him*. I know this makes things look much worse and I wish I found this site back in 2011. There is also one other guy I suspect as she was close friends with a guy from her kickboxing class but* they barely talk now*.


Six months of telephone calls = sexual intercourse with a condom one time?

Kickbox barely talks to her? Sure it can be awkward being around someone you cheated with. One of them made the decision to break up.

You are not paranoid. Only the fact that you picked up this stuff and chased it down suggests that you mind functions well. Some guys would pretend nothing happened to avoid conflict. You are not that guy. Be proud of yourself for having some guts.


----------



## Shaggy

Given that she is now a confirmed serial cheater, honestly answer this :

What reasons has she given you to let her have the privilege of being with you?

And

What is she doing to fundamentally change who she is? I don't mean give you a token show of transparency, she could easily be using a private app on her phone or have a burner phone already. She's had in just the last 700 days, two different romantic and sexual relationships. Relationships don't fall from the sky, she had to be looking, to putting herself on the market, filtering out the bad ones, then investing in building the relationship to where they got naked together. That requires a lot of time and effort.

So what is she really doing different to not cheat now and in the long run? Has she permanently stopped being in places to meet new men? Has she taken herself off the market? Has she put that time she was using on them, into you?


----------



## Shaggy

What you also know now, is that she jumped into this most recent affair fully knowing what she was doing. She was already an experienced cheater and just month before was having sex outside of marriage.

So this new guy, the junkie looser, wasn't a relationship that got too close, it was your wife choosing to find a new bf and to available on call on demand to provide him sex anytime he wanted her.

Does she do that level of effort or service for you?

And given her history of replacing these affair partners when she's done with them,it's very likely she will do it again, as it is obviously something she values enough to put real effort into.

Given that she is a teacher, and her workplace is full of cheating, she's got a target rich environment to select her next ap from, and you'll never know because they'll be connecting at work and using school as the cover.


----------



## Shaggy

This goes back to what I pointed out to you in the beginning - she had already jumped right to having a burner phone for this last affair.

Clearly she's an experienced cheater and liar. You've a approached it like she was a first timer when the truth is she has been successfully doing this for years and has been using all the tricks of the trade.

Wonder where she learned them? Could it be her best friend? Might she also be a cheater ,and the two of them cover for each other perfectly?

You need that polygraph but you really do also need a DNA test on your kids.

You aren't dealing with a wife who went a little astray. You are instead dealing with a skilled serial cheater who has successfully been carrying on full on relationships with other men for years.

She knows enough to use burner phones, you don't think she also knows the cheater tricks of throwing tears and sex at you? Giving you access to accounts she never uses for cheating, and lying low for a while until the heat cools down?


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## BK23

I'm getting a sinking feeling that the two affairs you are partially aware of--I say partially because she is obviously lying about the extent of the first one--are only the tip of the iceberg.

You've been extraordinarily forgiving to get to this point, but if you don't know what you're forgiving, this is all in vain. I don't know of many cases in which a serial cheater is ABLE to reform. You need to find out the extent of your wife's infidelity, so you can make an informed decision about whether you should be in this marriage.


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## tom67

Shaggy said:


> This goes back to what I pointed out to you in the beginning - she had already jumped right to having a burner phone for this last affair.
> 
> Clearly she's an experienced cheater and liar. You've a approached it like she was a first timer when the truth is she has been successfully doing this for years and has been using all the tricks of the trade.
> 
> Wonder where she learned them? Could it be her best friend? Might she also be a cheater ,and the two of them cover for each other perfectly?
> 
> You need that polygraph but you really do also need a DNA test on your kids.
> 
> You aren't dealing with a wife who went a little astray. You are instead dealing with a skilled serial cheater who has successfully been carrying on full on relationships with other men for years.
> 
> She knows enough to use burner phones, you don't think she also knows the cheater tricks of throwing tears and sex at you? Giving you access to accounts she never uses for cheating, and lying low for a while until the heat cools down?


If you can't afford the poly get a couple of dna tests at 100 each.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Shaggy,

One disturbing aspect to the pattern of her affairs is that there is no pattern to them. She takes up Thai kickboxing. Gets into shape. Has fun doing it – hey, maybe she is cute and charming when she gets flirtatious. Great affair opportunity. Leave practice in a hurry, get in a quickie.

Best friend's opiate eyed brother all at the house where everyone hangs out. Completely different flavor of strange. And unfortunately she emotionally committed to that relationship. She loved that POSOM intensely. He went to get methadone every morning. Hard to believe he never shared his passion with her.

People always talk about shame, guilt and remorse. How does a serial cheater experience remorse. Don't they have suffer and feel uncertainty before they can understand what they have done?


----------



## tom67

Dday said:


> I've been trying to stay away from the boards as checking and posting everyday wasnt really helping me. I do appreciate all of the advice and will continue to update.
> 
> I left some information out of this thread and will reveal that now. I guess I did because the overall sense I got was that Divorce was the only option and this makes my situation look even worse.
> 
> So here is my full timeline:
> 
> 12/21/11
> I caught her texting at 3:00am after she was out with friends and she came home. I went for the phone and she went to bathroom and deleted all the messages. I couldn't sleep and checked phone records online and found a number she was calling for 6 months late at night and when I was out of town. I did reverse lookups and came up with 2 names.
> 
> Long story short but I grilled her for days/weeks/months and she only admitted to talking to him and made lies about how it was her friend who was having an affair with him. At the time our youngest was 1 and I had no fear of an affair and didn't even know what a EA was. All contact ended at that time and things went back to normal. I never bought the story and continued for months asking her to call the number in front of me but it never happened.
> 
> Feb 2013
> I am on her Facebook account and she gets a private message from one of the names from the reverse lookup. He is not a friend of anyone we know so I know it's not a friendly text. I tried to start conversation but nothing incriminating was said. She now admitted to lying and an EA of sorts but I still didn't even know what that was. She said she liked the attention blah blah blah. I was pissed and didn't buy the **** she was saying but had nothing concrete. The message said something like "do I know you" or something like that and I don't think there was contact since 12/21/11.
> 
> 3/29/13
> Was my Dday when I found the phone. She was having an affair with a 2nd guy since 6/2012. Everything i posted about this original story is true and i didnt leave anything out. After she admitted to this affair I asked about the first guy and she denied. I persisted and she finally admitted to 1 time with him in 12/2011.
> 
> She was disgusted by that affair as it was just about sex and no emotional connection was made. Even though the 2nd was much more serious and bothers me more i can tell she feels sick when i bring up the first one. I have trouble believing it was only once as the calls were going on for 6 months in 2011 with him. I know this makes things look much worse and I wish I found this site back in 2011. There is also one other guy I suspect as she was close friends with a guy from her kickboxing class but they barely talk now. I might be overreacting or paranoid with him but the fact is I have doubts about our whole relationship now.
> 
> The last 4 months have been a roller coaster. She is trying everything I ask but I just get mad that I have to tell her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DNA test the kids.


----------



## Decorum

DDay,
Its likely she will be unable to stop.

you dont want to break up and the advice on a board like this is hard for you.

She needs these affairs to be happy.

Have you considered an open marriage.

This can take some fun out of the affair, sometimes it runs its course and the partners return to monogamy. It provides an opportunity for her to experience jealously and some validation for you from other woman since your wife is choosing scum over you.

She may stop for threat of divorce, at least for a time, but she will not be happy.

You have been having an open marriage anyway she just never told you, I'm sure the whole truth would be quite shocking if you knew it.

Or you can continue to try and keep her caged in and accept more of the same.

Sorry I know this is not what you wanted from your wife and mother of your kids, she is a piece of work. I wish you well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Dday,
> 
> The new background information makes everything look far worse. The trickle truthing means you have no closure. The Thai kick boxing thing, that's your gut feeling and gut feeling is often right on. That is mother nature's way of protecting DNA.
> 
> Your wife is a serial cheater. She looks for both sex and emotion outside of your marriage. There's a hole she cannot fill with you. She is not good at monogamy. Once, didn't you post about having a revenge affair? Maybe it wasn't you.
> 
> Maybe the best thing would be to file for divorce. Tell her you're going to date. If she really wants to be married, she can date you, too.
> 
> I'll bet she has spilled the beans to her best friend. Instead of a polygraph, waste of money at this point, you could ask the friend to coffee with or without your wife. Tell her friend that your marriage is on the line and that you need to know everything she knows.
> 
> She'll say she cannot betray her friendship to your wife. You can say that you are going to divorce your wife if the whole truth doesn't come out. If your wife is there she can agree. If not you can offer to call your wife and ask her sanction her telling all to you. At the same time, tell your wife go somewhere else and sit at a computer and write down everything, so that you can compare the two versions.
> 
> They'll ask to wait. But you must insist that it is here and now.
> 
> If they say no. Well, then you carry out the threat to divorce.
> 
> This is worth doing if they have been best friends during the entire time.


From what I know she hasn't talked to anyone in detail about the affairs. The BF doesn't even know about the first guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Trust your gut for once..


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Six months of telephone calls = sexual intercourse with a condom one time?
> 
> Kickbox barely talks to her? Sure it can be awkward being around someone you cheated with. One of them made the decision to break up.
> 
> You are not paranoid. Only the fact that you picked up this stuff and chased it down suggests that you mind functions well. Some guys would pretend nothing happened to avoid conflict. You are not that guy. Be proud of yourself for having some guts.


I find it hard to believe as well. She is consistent with her story though and has not wavered a bit. And it wasn't with a condom, ugh. 

The kickboxing guy hasnt been confirmed and Im just suspicious there. I met the kid and he is pretty innocent but who knows. He never seemed uncomfortable around us and we still see him. They still talk but he stopped going to the same kickboxing place as much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Was my Dday when I found the phone. She was having an affair with a 2nd guy since 6/2012. Everything i posted about this original story is true and i didnt leave anything out. After she admitted to this affair I asked about the first guy and she denied. I persisted and she finally admitted to 1 time with him in 12/2011. 

It wasn't one time. She sounds like a serial cheater. She probably will stay good for a couple of years. How long will you keep snooping on her ?


----------



## Decorum

Btw cheaters math is 1= 2 to 100
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> This goes back to what I pointed out to you in the beginning - she had already jumped right to having a burner phone for this last affair.
> 
> Clearly she's an experienced cheater and liar. You've a approached it like she was a first timer when the truth is she has been successfully doing this for years and has been using all the tricks of the trade.
> 
> Wonder where she learned them? Could it be her best friend? Might she also be a cheater ,and the two of them cover for each other perfectly?
> 
> You need that polygraph but you really do also need a DNA test on your kids.
> 
> You aren't dealing with a wife who went a little astray. You are instead dealing with a skilled serial cheater who has successfully been carrying on full on relationships with other men for years.
> 
> She knows enough to use burner phones, you don't think she also knows the cheater tricks of throwing tears and sex at you? Giving you access to accounts she never uses for cheating, and lying low for a while until the heat cools down?


The burner phone was because I caught her the first time. She knew I was tracking her call logs and was still suspicious. I'm not disagreeing with the polygraph and will be something I do eventually. 

I have no doubt the kids are mine... Maybe naive but I'm sure of it. She had her tubes tied with the last kid which I think have her assurance that she could cheat without getting pregnant or something like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BK23

Would it be a deal breaker for you if you found out there were more affairs?


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> One disturbing aspect to the pattern of her affairs is that there is no pattern to them. She takes up Thai kickboxing. Gets into shape. Has fun doing it – hey, maybe she is cute and charming when she gets flirtatious. Great affair opportunity. Leave practice in a hurry, get in a quickie.
> 
> Best friend's opiate eyed brother all at the house where everyone hangs out. Completely different flavor of strange. And unfortunately she emotionally committed to that relationship. She loved that POSOM intensely. He went to get methadone every morning. Hard to believe he never shared his passion with her.
> 
> People always talk about shame, guilt and remorse. How does a serial cheater experience remorse. Don't they have suffer and feel uncertainty before they can understand what they have done?


Just to be clear the first guy wasnt from kickboxing. And the kickboxing is just a workout program where it is probably a 20-1 girl guy ratio. I have suspicion about 1 guy that was working out there. 

The first guy she met at a bar, gave her # and that went on for 6 months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Dday said:


> The burner phone was because I caught her the first time. She knew I was tracking her call logs and was still suspicious. I'm not disagreeing with the polygraph and will be something I do eventually.
> 
> I have no doubt the kids are mine... Maybe naive but I'm sure of it. She had her tubes tied with the last kid which I think have her assurance that she could cheat without getting pregnant or something like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are desperately covering for her by excusing away why and how she did things.

I know you want this nightmare to be over, but you need to get to the full truth before you can start on recovery.

Your wife has had multiple affairs over the last couple of years, yet at each step you are choosing to explain away the evidence, you continue to accept the best friend, you don't get suspicious.

Are you doing this because you are afraid of what you will find or what you will do ?

She's been dating and having sex with at least 2 guys, that's way off the rails for a good and loyal wife, and other than her throwing a couple of tears etc at you, you think she's suddenly reformed?

Look, it's your life and I'm only trying to help you when I say this - but stop making her job so easy as a cheater by being so trusting of her.

Make her prove she is innocent instead of doing it for her.


----------



## Dday

Decorum said:


> DDay,
> Its likely she will be unable to stop.
> 
> you dont want to break up and the advice on a board like this is hard for you.
> 
> She needs these affairs to be happy.
> 
> Have you considered an open marriage.
> 
> This can take some fun out of the affair, sometimes it runs its course and the partners return to monogamy. It provides an opportunity for her to experience jealously and some validation for you from other woman since your wife is choosing scum over you.
> 
> She may stop for threat of divorce, at least for a time, but she will not be happy.
> 
> You have been having an open marriage anyway she just never told you, I'm sure the whole truth would be quite shocking if you knew it.
> 
> Or you can continue to try and keep her caged in and accept more of the same.
> 
> Sorry I know this is not what you wanted from your wife and mother of your kids, she is a piece of work. I wish you well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know this is the type of advice I get on here which is why I stayed away for a bit. I'm not saying its wrong advice or too harsh, I need to hear it. Obviously a lot of you on here have been hurt and things ended badly. I do hope I am different but I do understand the odds are against us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BK23

Dday said:


> I know this is the type of advice I get on here which is why I stayed away for a bit. I'm not saying its wrong advice or too harsh, I need to hear it. Obviously a lot of you on here have been hurt and things ended badly. I do hope I am different but I do understand the odds are against us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, you're definitely going to get the worst case scenario here. I think the reason folks are really concerned for you though, is that you seem determined not to find out what the reality of your situation is. This is called denial. It's one of the stages of this process, but people are trying to give you a kick in the pants to move you along in this crappy process.


----------



## Dday

warlock07 said:


> Was my Dday when I found the phone. She was having an affair with a 2nd guy since 6/2012. Everything i posted about this original story is true and i didnt leave anything out. After she admitted to this affair I asked about the first guy and she denied. I persisted and she finally admitted to 1 time with him in 12/2011.
> 
> It wasn't one time. She sounds like a serial cheater. She probably will stay good for a couple of years. How long will you keep snooping on her ?


Exactly my thoughts.... So I should just give up now and move on??? I feel I owe it to my kids to try to work this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

BK23 said:


> Would it be a deal breaker for you if you found out there were more affairs?


At this point, Yes

If she admits to more than 1 time with the first guy it probably wouldn't be because in my mind I already expect that. It was kind of the same way when she finally admitted to the first guy. I think I knew all along but at the time I wasn't willing to push enough and find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

Shaggy said:


> You are desperately covering for her by excusing away why and how she did things.
> 
> I know you want this nightmare to be over, but you need to get to the full truth before you can start on recovery.
> 
> Your wife has had multiple affairs over the last couple of years, yet at each step you are choosing to explain away the evidence, you continue to accept the best friend, you don't get suspicious.
> 
> Are you doing this because you are afraid of what you will find or what you will do ?
> 
> She's been dating and having sex with at least 2 guys, that's way off the rails for a good and loyal wife, and other than her throwing a couple of tears etc at you, you think she's suddenly reformed?
> 
> Look, it's your life and I'm only trying to help you when I say this - but stop making her job so easy as a cheater by being so trusting of her.
> 
> Make her prove she is innocent instead of doing it for her.


I hear what you are saying and understand why it looks that way. The advice is only one sided here and without inviting her to this board I feel I need to give her side as well. In no way do I want justify what she did. 

At this point I want to know everything. She insists that I do. I don't believe her and probably will be skeptical of everything she says for the next 30 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Dday said:


> I hear what you are saying and understand why it looks that way. The advice is only one sided here and without inviting her to this board I feel I need to give her side as well. In no way do I want justify what she did.
> 
> At this point I want to know everything. She insists that I do. I don't believe her and probably will be skeptical of everything she says for the next 30 years.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's all in what you can put up with. You are going to have to be a prison warden for the next year or so. You are at a crossroads it seems the kids will adjust if you guys split.


----------



## turnera

If that's how you feel, then you need to reprioritize the polygraph. FIND a way to pay for it. Before you go crazy.


----------



## bfree

Pardon me for saying this but it sounds to me less like you're worried about paying for the polygraph and more like you're worried about what you will discover.


----------



## southernsurf

Imagine if you didn't find her passed out with that new phone she would still be going at it and not too worried. What are you trying to fix, you will never ever trust her again, ever. In my opinion R just doesn't work in these cases nearly hopeless. maybe in mistakes like ONS you have a prayer but multiple partners long term, no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Dday said:


> I know this is the type of advice I get on here which is why I stayed away for a bit. I'm not saying its wrong advice or too harsh, I need to hear it. Obviously a lot of you on here have been hurt and things ended badly. I do hope I am different but I do understand the odds are against us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





BK23 said:


> Yeah, you're definitely going to get the worst case scenario here. I think the reason folks are really concerned for you though, is that you seem determined not to find out what the reality of your situation is. This is called denial. It's one of the stages of this process, but people are trying to give you a kick in the pants to move you along in this crappy process.


Yeah, my post regarding an open marriage was not in earnest.
I'm actually opposed to it personally, I am confident you would not go that way.

Think how repugnant, repulsive, and reprehensible the thought is.

So much so that you would avoid a forum because of it.

Now consider your wife's moral conscience, it's not repugnant, repulsive, and reprehensible to her. She would not even avoid a bar to keep from cheating on you. If fact she would run to it.

You would not share her with any man, and she cannot/will not refrain from sharing herself with another.

How do you fix that? 

What kind of consequences would be required for her to have a "come to Jesus moment" about her behavior?

That is what you have to aim for and if you believe it is not possible or even likely, then cut her lose or put up with it.

Give up threats of any kind, only actions matter, she is not being logical, its all need driven. She is a very broken person. I'm sure she is not who you thought she was when you married her.

So choose.

You will do one or the other.


----------



## LongWalk

Dday,

I felt sort of guilty back when you drew back from posting because I was pushing hard. Something did not seem right. The remorse was not there. And now we see that remorse couldn't be there because so much was still hidden.

Brokenshadow, whose wife is an opiate addict in remission, presents the same problem. She wants to stay married but she is not active in repairing the relationship. She'll do what he says but she doesn't search for ways to reach out to him. As one poster put it, she treats the post Dday situation as a job from which she doesn't want to get fired.

If all your wife wants to do is not be fired, that is a hard position from which she can find happiness and contentment.

One earlier poster suggested that you propose an open marriage. The rule should be you have to inform the partner that you are starting something with someone. Got to call before peeling off the jeans. Cannot do it on the children or family's time. Money has to come out of an affair allowance. You can do it, too. See she how she likes it.



> Open Relationships -
> Ten Rules for
> 
> Open Marriages
> 
> 
> 
> First, it needs to be understood that some open marriages are successful and have continued for decades -- especially if they are considered supplements or enhancements to the marriage and are not a replacement for the role of a spouse. This article discusses the qualities of successful open marriages.
> 
> However,* the vast majority of couples -- at least in the U.S. society -- can't handle an open marriage agreement.*
> 
> 
> Following the Rules
> 
> Without some "rules" being mutually discussed and agreed upon, jealousy, insecurity and anger can emerge within the marriage. However, it has been found that if the agreed upon rules are carefully followed these negatives typically drop to a low and manageable level.
> The following assumes that there is mutual agreement between the primary partners that the relationship can be "open." If this is not the case (trust us on this!), problems will inevitably result.
> The Ten Rules for Open Marriages
> 
> Although we use the term marriage here, we'll include the hundreds-of-thousands of couples are now living together.
> 
> 1. The primary relationship will always remain primary. With this level of freedom comes an equal level of responsibility. If one or both partners in the outside relationship become unduly involved with the other, that outside relationship must end.
> 
> 2. The marriage partner has the option of disapproving a particular outside relationship.
> 
> 3. One spouse will check with the other before meetings with an outside partner. If conflicts occur the decision will favor the needs or plans of marriage partner.
> 
> 4. Meeting with any one outside person cannot take place on a daily basis. Regularly seeing just one outside person can easily result in undue personal and emotional involvement.
> 
> 5. On person can't claim, "what's okay for me isn't okay for you." If the marriage is "open" then it is open to both partners. A possible exception here is, by agreement, so-called hotwife arrangements.*
> 
> 6. If one spouse is meeting another person, the other spouse must at all times know where he or she is and with whom. This is especially important if a spouse plans an overnight stay or if children are involved.
> 
> 7. Comparing the supposedly superior or more gratifying sexual capabilities of "the other person" with those of a spouse is "off limits."
> 
> 8. Safe sex precautions and procedures will be rigorously adhered to.
> 
> 9. There will be "full disclosure" at all times and meetings or conversations with the outside person will not be kept secret from a spouse.
> 
> 10. And, finally, no outside relationship can in any way endanger another person's monogamous marriage or relationship.
> 
> 
> Based in our e-mail, we know that when problems arise in open marriages it's when one or more of the above rules are broken.


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Dday,
> 
> I felt sort of guilty back when you drew back from posting because I was pushing hard. Something did not seem right. The remorse was not there. And now we see that remorse couldn't be there because so much was still hidden.
> 
> Brokenshadow, whose wife is an opiate addict in remission, presents the same problem. She wants to stay married but she is not active in repairing the relationship. She'll do what he says but she doesn't search for ways to reach out to him. As one poster put it, she treats the post Dday situation as a job from which she doesn't want to get fired.
> 
> If all your wife wants to do is not be fired, that is a hard position from which she can find happiness and contentment.
> 
> One earlier poster suggested that you propose an open marriage. The rule should be you have to inform the partner that you are starting something with someone. Got to call before peeling off the jeans. Cannot do it on the children or family's time. Money has to come out of an affair allowance. You can do it, too. See she how she likes it.


Just to be clear, I knew of all of this within 1 week of Dday 3/29/13. I only withheld posting here for some reason. There has been no trickle truth since.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Dday said:


> Just to be clear, I knew of all of this within 1 week of Dday 3/29/13. I only withheld posting here for some reason. There has been no trickle truth since.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hard choices with few options.


There has been no trickle truth since, because she has withheld the full truth. Which is worse? A tie goes to the runner.

I will leave it at that. I wish you well.

Take care!


----------



## TDSC60

Do not use the kids for an excuse to stay together. Kids are resilient and can adjust better than most adults. If you cannot trust her and your gut is telling you there is more to the cheating then file for divorce. Find a woman who will love and respect you.

From personal knowledge I know it is better for the kids if you divorce someone you cannot trust than it is to raise them in an atmosphere of distrust.

If parents do not show love and respect toward each other the kids are going to learn that behavior. When they have a relationship of their own they will mimic their parents.

By staying with your wife for the kids you are setting yourself up for years of pain and you are setting your kids up for relationship problems of their own. You are not helping them.


----------



## Acabado

Dday said:


> I know this is the type of advice I get on here which is why I stayed away for a bit. I'm not saying its wrong advice or too harsh, I need to hear it. Obviously a lot of you on here have been hurt and things ended badly. I do hope I am different but I do understand the odds are against us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will get the same advice at any other site you go, at any other IC you go.
It's simple, hard to grasp but simple, google serial cheating (Because I hope at least you are not in denial abou that fact).
The chances your marriage ends badly are very high, becasue the flawor of cheater your wife is, not because anybody else story ended bad.
And to increase the odds of R (becasue it's what you want) it's absolutly fundamental a full disclosure. Secrets, compartiments are the slipery slope.
Another things is... do you believe she's making some effort at soulsearching, at self examination. Do you see her reaching for help/advice, reading books? Do you believe this fiasco has an impact on herself as individual? Something tangible? So you see at least an impulse?
Friend, you are as short of money as she is yet you googled the words and ended up here. Do you see her doing something as easy as this?


----------



## Will_Kane

What is your wife's motivation for NOT cheating? Does she think it's wrong but is just weak? Or does she think it's OK but doesn't want to disrupt her family and be labeled a cheater?

Six months of sexting with Other Man #1, but sex was "just one time" - if a stranger told you that story, you would never believe it. Your wife is a stranger to us. Do you think your and her parents would believe the "just one time" story?

How do the times of day and frequency of the texts with Other Man #2 compare to the times of day and frequency of the texts with Other Man #1?

Who was she in the bar with when she got Other Man #1's phone number? How often did she go to bars under similar circumstances? Did you ask your wife if she ever exchanged phone numbers with any other guys while she was out in the bars, either before or after this? How likely would it be that your wife exchanged phone numbers in a bar "just one time"?

As far as Possible Other Man #3, how often did he and your wife used to communicate? Kickboxing classes usually are mostly all women, very few men. Out of all the women in the class, why would some kid be communicating fairly frequently with your wife, out of all the women in that class?

There has been no trickle truth since the first week after you found out about Other Man #2 because your wife stopped telling the truth, NOT because there is no more truth to trickle. There is plenty of truth still yet to trickle.


----------



## LongWalk

If she doesn't bare her soul, there can be not true remorse. Without remorse where is the respect.

The polygraph is a tool for sure, but filing for divorce may be just as effective. Get all the papers ready for her to sign. Tell her the two of you are going to have a date night, so that a baby sitter has everything under control, and then so somewhere, and present the papers to her.

If she accepts them and doesn't fight for your marriage, you'll know she doesn't love you enough. If she says, she'll do anything you ask, tell her to write down a timeline of all the affairs. I think there are even templates for them to make it easier.

What sort of things should a BS know about the affair? Where did the sex happen? What acts took place? What sort of pleasure did she experience? In your case, if you can stand these details, they may be important to deprive her of any pleasant private memories. The affairs can have an objective reality but also an equally valid historical judgment: her post coital bliss and the secret joy of cheating will lose their magic.

She will still TT, but if you get a major portion of it out. You can say to her at least some real progress came out of it. Ask her she feels better having come clean about POSOM1. If she looks, you straight in the eye and is grateful for your tough love, take her to a steak or sushi dinner. Tell her your marriage isn't out of the woods but at least she is working on it.

If this cleans out some of the bile, maybe you can survive this. R is not so easy.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> If she doesn't bare her soul, there can be not true remorse. Without remorse where is the respect.
> 
> The polygraph is a tool for sure, but filing for divorce may be just as effective. Get all the papers ready for her to sign. Tell her the two of you are going to have a date night, so that a baby sitter has everything under control, and then so somewhere, and present the papers to her.
> 
> If she accepts them and doesn't fight for your marriage, you'll know she doesn't love you enough. If she says, she'll do anything you ask, tell her to write down a timeline of all the affairs. I think there are even templates for them to make it easier.
> 
> What sort of things should a BS know about the affair? Where did the sex happen? What acts took place? What sort of pleasure did she experience? In your case, if you can stand these details, they may be important to deprive her of any pleasant private memories. The affairs can have an objective reality but also an equally valid historical judgment: her post coital bliss and the secret joy of cheating will lose their magic.
> 
> She will still TT, but if you get a major portion of it out. You can say to her at least some real progress came out of it. Ask her she feels better having come clean about POSOM1. If she looks, you straight in the eye and is grateful for your tough love, take her to a steak or sushi dinner. Tell her your marriage isn't out of the woods but at least she is working on it.
> 
> If this cleans out some of the bile, maybe you can survive this. R is not so easy.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Mustbecrazy

I may be out of line here, but I'd donate to the Poly fund.


----------



## LongWalk

Mustbecrazy said:


> I may be out of line here, but I'd donate to the Poly fund.



:rofl:

I was reading a site on open marriage and they admitted that does not work for most. You have to follow rules. Cheaters don't like rules. They would not succeed at successful open marriages.


----------



## Shaggy

LongWalk said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I was reading a site on open marriage and they admitted that does not work for most. You have to follow rules. Cheaters don't like rules. They would not succeed at successful open marriages.


Polygraph not polygamous


----------



## Shaggy

My prediction which I admit is negative, is that if you R, you unfortunately will find that you have a window maybe 6 months, maybe a year or two of her being faithful.

Then you will find one day that she doesn't respond kindly to something you say to her, that she is a little shorter than normal with you. You'll find that the sex slows down and you no longer seem to emotionally connect for some reason.

You'll wonder what you did wrong and you'll try to give he space.

Eventually you'll find she's seeing a new friend, very possibly from work...

I say this given her history and the actions of many other WW.

She's become used to having a outside of marriage relationship and male partner for at least 2 years ? It's part of her routine, like having coffee in the morning.

You caught her and she's trying to be good, but what has fundamentally changed in her that would have ended the part of her that chose to live like that?

You've stopped her from having sex with the junkie, but what has she done inside herself to stop being a person who is willing to have an affair?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Why you cant tell her you arranged a Polygraph and ask her to get ready for it tomorrow. If she agrees then take her to the polygraph centers parking lot and ask her is there anything more, She may come clean.

Any way your wife is a serial cheater and she may do the same when dust settles.


----------



## turnera

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Why you cant tell her you arranged a Polygraph and ask her to get ready for it tomorrow. If she agrees then take her to the polygraph centers parking lot and ask her is there anything more,


And add that if the test comes up different from her story going in, there will be NO further discussion except divorce papers.


----------



## Dday

Again, thank you for all the replies. I can afford the polygraph it's just not worth it to me right now. I may eventually do it but I don't know if it will give me the closure I guess I'm looking for. If she passes and her story checks out per the test, I don't have a choice but to believe her story and move on. She will be right when she says that she is doing everything I ask and that I need to believe her. If she fails but still maintains she is telling the truth, I know that the test isn't completely accurate. The best way to use it is as a threat and drive right to a parking lot and see what I get that way. 

That in the grand scheme of things is my issue right now. My WW has been doing everything I ask, but nothing seems like it is enough. I don't know if it will ever be. Any little disagreement about dinner or going out or staying up with the kids I feel entitled to get my way because of what she did. I know this is not healthy for our R so a lot of times I don't say anything and give into her but then the resentment and anger comes back. 

I understand that she is a serial cheater and I don't feel safe that she will never do this again. How could you really? I probably won't trust anyone else even if we divorce. I have been scarred by this more than I could ever have imagined. Our MC told me that I have PTSD, as I have seen in another thread and agree that this is worse than anything I have ever been through my entire life. 

I think about how we are now, and how life would be if we divorced. I dream about finding her in another affair or her admitting to more. I visualize meeting the POSOM2 and confronting him and beating him to an inch of his life. 

I hear about how great life can be after a divorce and how the kids will be ok with it. I see statistics that prove otherwise. Everything is just so confusing and I know there is no clear answer. I feel I am just waiting for her to mess up again or that I will eventually push her away because I can't heal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mustbecrazy

You might find this audio helpful. The guy has dealt with a lot of cheaters.

"How to Create a Serial Cheater"

How to create a serial cheater - Marriage Builders® Forums


----------



## vi_bride04

Dday said:


> I feel I am just waiting for her to mess up again or that I will eventually push her away because I can't heal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How is that any way to live??

Sometimes the only way to heal is to leave. Life is just fine after divorce. There is better out there than living this life you mentioned...

Live in limbo? Forget that. Its not worth it to do that to yourself.


----------



## turnera

You need to be in therapy.


----------



## LongWalk

Dday,

Although you paint a bleak picture, I think you are in a better place that before. The denial of reality was far unhealthier situation. You are now at least on top of what is driving your emotions.

Have you thought about filing for D to see how it feels?

You can cancel D before it becomes final. 

It seems as if you wife wants to be with you for security but that is draining you of energy.

Who in your family knows about the extent of her infidelity?

Are you afraid that people will laugh at you if it comes out?


----------



## LongWalk

Shaggy said:


> Polygraph not polygamous


:rofl: Well, given the discussion about open marriage it seemed to make sense.


----------



## badmemory

Dday said:


> I feel I am just waiting for her to mess up again or that I will eventually push her away because I can't heal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Been there Dday. That feeling isn't unusual. 

If it's any consolation, that feeling could fade in time - *IF* she remains remorseful. 

Mine has.


----------



## Dday

LongWalk said:


> Dday,
> 
> Although you paint a bleak picture, I think you are in a better place that before. The denial of reality was far unhealthier situation. You are now at least on top of what is driving your emotions.
> 
> Have you thought about filing for D to see how it feels?
> 
> You can cancel D before it becomes final.
> 
> It seems as if you wife wants to be with you for security but that is draining you of energy.
> 
> Who in your family knows about the extent of her infidelity?
> 
> Are you afraid that people will laugh at you if it comes out?


I have thought about it but I don't want to drag the kids through that. If I decide to go that route it would be final. She doesn't need any wake up call or to even do more than what she is doing, it's just me not being able to live with what she did. 

Nobody in our family knows the full extent. A few of our closest friends know about the 2nd affair but know one knows the whole story. 

I'm not afraid of people laughing at me. I feel I will get a lot of advice like I get here about leaving her and moving on. Before this happened to me I would give the same advice. I don't know why that is t so clear to me now but I really think it is best for me to stay together in the long term.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dday

badmemory said:


> Been there Dday. That feeling isn't unusual.
> 
> If it's any consolation, that feeling could fade in time - *IF* she remains remorseful.
> 
> Mine has.


Thanks for providing some hope. I read some of your threads and I am definitely experiencing a lot of the feelings you have. 

Especially with the sex, we have it 2-3 times a week now but I don't think I get half the passion he did. Its better than what we had since before kids but my visualizations of what they had make it almost impossible to deal with.


----------



## badmemory

Dday said:


> Thanks for providing some hope. I read some of your threads and I am definitely experiencing a lot of the feelings you have.
> 
> Especially with the sex, we have it 2-3 times a week now but I don't think I get half the passion he did. Its better than what we had since before kids but my visualizations of what they had make it almost impossible to deal with.


Well, if has improved at all from what is was - I would count that as a plus. Gotta start somewhere. And it's OK to be a little selfish - at least for a while.


----------



## Chaparral

Dday said:


> Thanks for providing some hope. I read some of your threads and I am definitely experiencing a lot of the feelings you have.
> 
> Especially with the sex, we have it 2-3 times a week now but I don't think I get half the passion he did. Its better than what we had since before kids but my visualizations of what they had make it almost impossible to deal with.


As an aside, he was getting drunk sex with no baggage.

I think you need to go to your gp,.get some meds temporarily. Put off life changing decisions.

The most important thing though is to get ptsd therapy to get your mind right to be able to make good decisions. Realistically, you are trying to decide what to do now with incomplete info. That's a sign you are in need of the therapy.

Thorburn is conversant in ptsd therapy, give him a pm.

You are not going to get to the heart of this situation until you have a solid foundation to build on.


----------



## JCD

Here is what I am reading: You want to stay in the marriage for good and intellectual reasons. And let's face it, they ARE logical, well reasoned and make sense from a fiscal children and lifestyle standpoint.

And logically, there really isn't anything wrong. Her vagina hasn't been stretched out of shape. She hasn't become pregnant. There are no STDs in the picture. So *logically* you haven't 'lost' anything.

And to bring *logic* further...what exact harm is she doing if she steps out occasionally for a bit of strange. She is taking care of the kids. You get your needs met. What does it matter if a bit of foreign sperm is occasionally injected into her, particularly considering you can mandate condom use.

So much for mere logic! Could you live with a 'logical' existence?

Um...so far, that's a big no. You are TERRIFIED of what you will discover in a polygraph. A polygraph MAY force you to make choices that you really don't want to know.

*EMOTIONALLY* you are not getting over this. You suspect her every day. You think she's shorting you in bed. You don't trust her worth a damn.

Now...it's early in this mess to know if you CAN recover (and I think that prospect is also terrifying you). Don't be afraid of your emotions, but be afraid of violence. I would also care a lot less if you are treating her as a Stepford Wife. Sorry, but after OM # *3*, you are owed a bit of Stepford pampering.

Trying to be rational without dealing with your emotions seems to be a losing proposition.

So tell your wife what you are feeling. But also tell her that while it will take a LONG TIME, recovery DOES happen. She is the offender. She needs to wait out her jail sentence. I think a lot of BS's don't tell the WS that. They think they will suffer forever as 'that Scarlet Woman'. Well...she'll always wear a trace of red, but she doesn't need to be full scarlet.

This takes time


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Ask her to arrange money and do a polygraph. If she is so desperate for R and ready to do anything then this wont be a big problem for her.

Dont take any decisions now and put your marriage under suspension for six months Inform her about this and take the decision after this period. 

Dont allow her to rug sweep or blame shift, deal it properly, else you are going to be in misery for rest of your life. I am afraid from your posts that you are heading for a false R. No one can truly R without full truth and true remorse.


----------



## LongWalk

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Ask her to arrange money and do a polygraph. If she is so desperate for R and ready to do anything then this wont be a big problem for her.
> 
> Dont take any decisions now and put your marriage under suspension for six months Inform her about this and take the decision after this period.
> 
> Dont allow her to rug sweep or blame shift, deal it properly, else you are going to be in misery for rest of your life. I am afraid from your posts that you are heading for a false R. No one can truly R without full truth and true remorse.


:iagree:
Don't let it fester. If it's eating at you, that's no good in the long term.


----------



## Mustbecrazy

DDay,

Check this out:

http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2012/12/0...od-method/make-love-like-a-sex-god-method.pdf

Click on the line in blue that says, "Tèlècharger le fichier"
(.PDF, 2305 Ko) and it opens a saveable PDF. I opened and saved the PDF in iBooks on my iPad.


----------



## LongWalk

Dday, you're doing a great job. When you came back and started posting again you got yourself in a much better position than back when, for example, you went to ball game and had to worry about seeing POSOM. Your emotions were a totally mess then.

What comes across in your posts is that your wife is an attractive woman but there is something flawed about her character. You cannot quite reach her. She gave herself more completely to the junkie than you, partially perhaps because she felt a sort of tender pity for him. I think her sexual attraction to him would have disappeared in less than year. After phasing him out she would have begun to look for a new kick... maybe she would have sought to scratch the itch before dumping him.

She was not a WAW but compartmentalized her feelings for you and she protected your had a role in her life, although she was not honest in filling you in on your shifting status as the provider who did not know about competing sperm. From an evolutionary point of view she adheres to a particular mating strategy to deceive the primary mate.

Your inheritance gave you the senses to detect her game. From selfish gene point of view you are saying no to the prospect of raising another man's child. Her tubes are tied but her behavior is driven by the need to have variety in fathers. A lot of men would rebel from their marriages if they saw another male's offspring suckling at the WW's teat.

Intellectually, you see that cost has been to your ego. So, for your children's sake you feel that you can go on. Can you? How can you protect yourself from the feeling of insecurity?

One solution is to police her but being in vagina security guard mode is a drag. That means becoming anxious and paranoid. Don't allow that to be your life.

The other solution is grow so much a person that your wife pretty much has to work harder to keep up. I recommend reading Bagdon's thread. He did a good job of becoming a better family leader. I realize this is easy to recommend and hard to do in reality. However, it at least gives you a strategy.

This means you become stronger, more self confident, less dependent on her for your happiness. You won't need to feel the ghost of that exciting cheating sex in the same way. As to the dynamic of her not giving a little extra to you bothering you because she owes you. That is probably the key. Perhaps you can concentrate on changing that in some good humored way.

You didn't actually list examples of what your conflicts are typically about, but it sounds like small things, the sort of stuff that requires give and take. And she has always been more of a taker, but now you resent it. Perhaps you can take three different approaches:

1) Just accept some things quickly and let her have her way very easily. Smile and be happy. Just forget it.
2) Don't discuss just dictate by action. Say, no honey it's going to be like this just because. Don't hang around to argue about it. Go over give her a hug. Look her in the eye and say "let's do it this way."
3) Be unpredictable. Sometime, you ought look serious and then go over and whisper that you are looking forward to banging her little cheating pvssy and then walk off and do solve the problem without her even knowing exactly how the conflict was resolved.

In short, whatever made her itch for strange, you have to scratch by being an more exciting, if you can make that your style.

Are you still triggering because of her BFF? Be interesting if you can get the self confidence and leadership role up to the extent that BFF becomes unimportant or your fan.


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## Kallan Pavithran

R or D, its your choice. If it was me then certainly I will Divorce her without a second thinking but every one is not like me and I can acept it. But if you R, it means you have to forgive her for what she did, the real problem here is you dont know completely what she did. First know the truth completely.

Then take your own time to decide what you really want in your life.

Definitely you need an IC for your fears.


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