# Caused/Received Chaos on SI.



## Taxman

I don't know if this is appropriate to the forum, so if I am out of line, please feel free to delete this thread.

I have been following a set of posts on SI. This started about a week ago, with a female poster called Caused Chaos, essentially, she posted that she was a WW, and that her BH had given her a set of requirements for R. A lot of it sounded bizarre. His requirements included her getting, what amounted to a "scarlet letter" tattooed on her, and he required that she set up a revenge affair. So, the responses, as expected, given only one side of the story, were bashing her BH quite a bit. Over the weekend, the BH started posting in the General section. She had given very sketchy details, he did. She had been in an affair nearly their entire marriage. It was two AP's. The affairs were physical. Frankly, after reading his side of the story, I understand the consequences, they are borne out of discovering that your entire marriage was a lie, and you are very very codependent. 

This morning, her entire thread just disappeared. I have, therefore a question for all of us here. Have you ever seen a thread just disappear? I do not belong to SI, and I have no desire to join. Would they delete an entire thread if the veracity of the poster is completely in question? As with any pair of threads, betrayed partner vs wayward partner, the entire story is being told from both sides, brings to mind a few, like SWAT70 and SoSorry17, DoneGone on SI and his ex Tears on TAM. I have the feeling that when the truth was told, CausedChaos requested that her thread be removed, took her ball and bat and went home.

I did a google search:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=634997

After her BH started posting, she was getting 2 x 4's galore, and requested that the thread be closed.


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## Clay2013

She had it closed. She isn't clearly ready to deal with what she did. She hoped people would just welcome her in like it was all ok. Her whole thread she never really showed what I would consider real remorse. She cheated on him for six years. He is a fool to believe she really loves him. He would rather live in la la land and believe she really loves him and only him. The only way I would consider staying in a relationship with her is if she allowed a divorce to go forward and she gave me everything in the divorce. Then after a few months of trying I would boot her out. I would tell her I am sorry I really tried but I just cant get over it. She would leave with nothing. Which is exactly what she deserves for being a completely horrible human being. 


People like that just disgust me. Sorry for the rant. I guess that's why I tried to stay away from their thread.


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## Taxman

I really could not understand the first four pages of her post. There were few if any details, just her repeating over and over that she did not know how to fulfill her husband's requirements. The requirements looked odd in every way. THEN, when her husband tells the truth, she tucked her tail between her legs and ran. I try not to conclude whether or not a couple should or should not divorce. In this case, given her attitude, she deserves the divorce. Sorry, but yes. That is the only modicum of justice, save and except that she should get a full spectator seat to see her husband find another, have his children with him, and go on to a nice life. I doubt that she will have the guts to come back. I look forward to seeing his story unfold.

After reading what Received Chaos wrote today, he is in a no win situation. I believe that his WW is busily trying to rugsweep. She will not even remove a toxic friend from her life. There is no dealing with his WW, she is just trying to convince him to stay. If it were me, I would be out of there. And I am usually one for reconciliation. There is no reconciling from this, plus, she has not made one move to let OMW know. Nope, she is not a candidate. His best bet would be to ensure that everyone concerned, not just parents know of the six year cancer on their marriage that she provided, and his unfortunate need to leave this toxic female behind.


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## StillSearching

Clay2013 said:


> She had it closed. She isn't clearly ready to deal with what she did. She hoped people would just welcome her in like it was all ok. Her whole thread she never really showed what I would consider real remorse. *She cheated on him for six years. He is a fool to believe she really loves him.* He would rather live in la la land and believe she really loves him and only him. The only way I would consider staying in a relationship with her is if she allowed a divorce to go forward and she gave me everything in the divorce. Then after a few months of trying I would boot her out. I would tell her I am sorry I really tried but I just cant get over it. She would leave with nothing. Which is exactly what she deserves for being a completely horrible human being.
> 
> 
> People like that just disgust me. Sorry for the rant. I guess that's why I tried to stay away from their thread.


He a fool to believe even if its just a ONS.


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## CantBelieveThis

Of course it can be deleted, the forum owner can do whatever with the entire data in the site, as a matter fact they could shut the entire thing down and delete everything in it w/o obligation

Now as far as that couple, meh , remember you will never truly know what all goes on inside another marriage....and couples can literally arrange an almost unlimited type of relationship style and boundaries imaginable....and there isnt any laws against it....so when I read crazy stuff like that I simply shrug my shoulders and say "whatever works for them"


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## 3Xnocharm

That H is pathetic. To even try to give conditions after a SIX YEAR affair... the man has serious issues.


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## sokillme

Clay2013 said:


> She had it closed. She isn't clearly ready to deal with what she did. She hoped people would just welcome her in like it was all ok. Her whole thread she never really showed what I would consider real remorse. She cheated on him for six years. He is a fool to believe she really loves him. He would rather live in la la land and believe she really loves him and only him. The only way I would consider staying in a relationship with her is if she allowed a divorce to go forward and she gave me everything in the divorce. Then after a few months of trying I would boot her out. I would tell her I am sorry I really tried but I just cant get over it. She would leave with nothing. Which is exactly what she deserves for being a completely horrible human being.
> 
> 
> People like that just disgust me. Sorry for the rant. I guess that's why I tried to stay away from their thread.


Even then why though. The choices are -

Starting new with someone who treated you like complete and utter garbage for the entirety of your marriage. 6 years! Who you know has questionable morals. 

or

Start new with someone who you can have a fresh history. What are the chances you are going to end up with someone who is just as terrible. I mean even if they only cheated for 6 months they would still be better right?

It's funny to me that almost all the post on most of these sites could reasonably be answered. Well you married and are married to an *******.

I mean we need to do a better job of getting across that, yeah if you are married to an *******, YES your life is going to suck. This should be like static text whenever someone wants to post.

_Before posting please acknowledge your understanding that if you are married to an ******* your life is most likely going to suck. Any advice and or counseling you receive from this site or any other place can do very little to change that. _


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## MattMatt

I'd guess the only people who could answer your questions are the moderators over at SI.


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## Taxman

Here is the interesting bit, when they suspend a thread, it completely disappears from their site. I had to "google" search the thread, and saw that a mod over there closed it at the OP's request. Personally, the woman is a coward. She came on back in July, and then recently to complain about the consequences to her affair. He wanted justice, and she enumerated the consequences he wanted. They made little to no sense. He wanted her to supply him with an RA? He wanted her to have a tatt to commemorate her affair? According to his thread, he has backed off, BUT, she is a coward. He tells her what he wants and she drags her feet. If I were in this position, I would be telling her that the first consequence is a separation. She can explain to everyone why I am gone. Oh, and if it gets back to me that she is telling tales, then the next consequence would be total truth to just about everyone she knows. The toxic girlfriend? Hmmmmm, let everyone she knows get the impression that she creates drama for her amusement. (My wife had a gf like that, was trying to set up affairs at her workplace. When she was outed, she had not had an affair, however four coworkers testified that she had literally set them up with other married coworkers. My wife was her supervisor, they are no longer friends, as my wife had to terminate her, and further, she thought that my wife would still give her a decent reference. Sorry, but the reference given states that she is detrimental to a smooth running operation)


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## She'sStillGotIt

I agree with the other posters that this guy is completely *pathetic* for staying with her after 6 years of her bull****. Who is THAT desperate? Ugh. Rhetorical question. There are tons of them on SI.


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## TDSC60

StillSearching said:


> He a fool to believe even if its just a ONS.


According to the thread on SI, the wife has admitted to a 9 month long affair with sex only 4 times (yeah - right). Then intermittent contact for the next 6 years including kissing, texting, phone calls, and meetings at work.

So basically she has carried on an affair for almost all of the marriage. Hard to regain any trust after that.


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## Dragan Jovanovic

I just can not comprehand how someone can know that his wife did what she did and not divorce?? How is that possible??


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## Kamstel

It’s my opinion that that site is run by a group of individuals who firmly believe that cheating is a minor mistake, and that everyone should reconcile at all costs!

While I’m not sure if it true or not, but some have told me that it was created by a couple of cheaters. 

They definitely take a hard line on those who are strong in their belief that best step to divorce or BTB.


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## Kamstel

So MAYBE, if her thread was not going along the line of supporting the cheater, they determined best to just delete the entire thread.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

3Xnocharm said:


> That H is pathetic. To even try to give conditions after a SIX YEAR affair... the man has serious issues.


Well, it would be hilarious if she did get a scarlet letter tatooed on her and then he immediately dumped her. I'd be slow clapping after that.


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## StillSearching

Dragan Jovanovic said:


> I just can not comprehand how someone can know that his wife did what she did and not divorce?? How is that possible??


Just ask me.....I been there.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Kamstel said:


> It’s my opinion that that site is run by a group of individuals who firmly believe that cheating is a minor mistake, and that everyone should reconcile at all costs!
> 
> While I’m not sure if it true or not, but some have told me that it was created by a couple of cheaters.
> 
> They definitely take a hard line on those who are strong in their belief that best step to divorce or BTB.


Its definately a pro-Reconciliation site. The creaters and mods all reconciled with their cheaters. Some jokers have been on that site for two decades still moaning about the AP...

That said, of you do go the R route, its probably not a half bad site as long as you dont become one of the squatters there. Many of the R people will see the BS and tell them to get an attorney if the WS isn't 100% on board, so its not like an R at all cost type site.

But, the moral highhorse is well alive on that site if you are a BS. Like Madhatters are excoriated way more than their WS. They propagandise terms like Fog and equate it all to their poor Wayward being a lovesick addict that needs a little time to go through the withdrawals. Puke...not my cup of tea but I suppose it helps some.


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## GoldenR

I erase contents from one post and i get a PM telling me that's a no no. A WW doesn't like hearing the truth and they delete her thread for her.


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## GoldenR

If you search her name, you can find the thread and read it.


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## Blondilocks

GoldenR said:


> If you search her name, you can find the thread and read it.


Or, you can just click on the link in the first post.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Dragan Jovanovic said:


> I just can not comprehand how someone can know that his wife did what she did and not divorce?? How is that possible??


It's highly possible because I'm sure he's got lots of people over on SI pouring the Kool-Aid down his throat and fawning all over him, clucking their tongues and patting his back, telling him how reconciliation can be achieved. They'll tell him how his cheating wife needs to go to therapy because it's the _magical cure_ for everything that ails you, and they'll tell him his wife is 'broken' and all that nonsense. And he'll pay tons of money to send her cheating ass to some therapist who'll likely hand her a bull**** excuse for her cheating and it will *no doubt *be some contrived nonsense about how 'FOO' issues made her do it, and the OP will be soooo encouraged knowing that she didn't cheat because she _wanted_ to, but it was her evil childhood that MADE her do it!! Yes sir! And now she's being 'fixed' by a therapist so they'll be back on the road to marital bliss in no time!

That is, until 3 or 4 or 8 years from now when this schmuck comes *back* to SI to post all about how his wife was caught cheating AGAIN.  Happens just every single day over there.

Part of their lame "_Healing Library_" should contain about 10 links to the Chump Lady's website.


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## Blondilocks

She'sStillGotIt said:


> It's highly possible because I'm sure he's got lots of people over on SI pouring the Kool-Aid down his throat and fawning all over him, clucking their tongues and patting his back, telling him how reconciliation can be achieved. They'll tell him how his cheating wife needs to go to therapy because it's the _magical cure_ for everything that ails you, and they'll tell him his wife is 'broken' and all that nonsense. And he'll pay tons of money to send her cheating ass to some therapist who'll likely hand her a bull**** excuse for her cheating and it will *no doubt *be some contrived nonsense about how 'FOO' issues made her do it, and the OP will be soooo encouraged knowing that she didn't cheat because she _wanted_ to, but it was her evil childhood that MADE her do it!! Yes sir! And now she's being 'fixed' by a therapist so they'll be back on the road to marital bliss in no time!
> 
> That is, until 3 or 4 or 8 years from now when this schmuck comes *back* to SI to post all about how his wife was caught cheating AGAIN.  Happens just every single day over there.
> 
> Part of their lame "_Healing Library_" should contain about 10 links to the Chump Lady's website.


It continually boggles my mind how some adults (some in their fifties and sixties) still blame all of their issues on their crappy mommy, daddy, siblings et al. At some point (hopefully, before they die), they will grow up and realize that is just a cop out.


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## Taxman

What I do not quite understand in all of this is, SIX BLOODY YEARS? I have difficulty understanding how a betrayed spouse can say they want the fantasy of a life back with the wayward spouse when the marriage was a complete fallacy for six years. I read her posts, she wants him, without the pain and work necessary. She is the ultimate rug sweeper. She claims not to want him to engage in revenge, however, I believe the best revenge would be for her to sit on the sidelines while she watches him go on to a great life without her. I know that little delicate bubble all too well. She is sitting in fantasy land, hoping beyond hope that he will just develop amnesia, and the feces that she completely and regularly rubbed on the marriage will be forgotten. He will be her one and only until she gets another itch between the labia. (seen that one as well.) Nope. I hope that she watches as he moves off, hopefully with someone that she knows so that those movies can play in her head for the next decade. She can watch her children love love love the new stepmom. She can be all alone, as that is the karma of this. She can watch her exHusband be happy and fulfilled, WITHOUT HER. She can see that as she ages, the good guys go off with good women. She is not one of them. She can marinate while he repairs his life. That is the universe seeking balance.


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## oldtruck

TDSC60 said:


> According to the thread on SI, the wife has admitted to a 9 month long affair with sex only 4 times (yeah - right). Then intermittent contact for the next 6 years including kissing, texting, phone calls, and meetings at work.
> 
> So basically she has carried on an affair for almost all of the marriage. Hard to regain any trust after that.


The BH better of had a polygraph done to back up the confession.


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## TAMAT

I think she was expecting a magic solution. 

It also seemed like she was looking for advice on what to say to her husband to make him think the affair was OK stuff like. "I never enjoyed sex with OM" "the OM never pleased me like you do" and other other lies. She wanted to become a better rugsweeper.

She also wanted to keep the OM in her life by continuing to work with him deep down she wants to start up the affair again when her BH gives up from exhaustion. 

What ultimately drove her off was the advice given to her BH to polygraph and push on the workplace exposure. She knows she has tons of unconfessed stuff and she does not want to lose OM. Also there is a good chance the OM will tell her BH lots of details for spite if BH pushes on HR.

She is now terrified that she will lose her nice life over an OM who can offer her nothing.


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## Jus260

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> But, the moral highhorse is well alive on that site if you are a BS. *Like Madhatters are excoriated way more than their WS*. They propagandise terms like Fog and equate it all to their poor Wayward being a lovesick addict that needs a little time to go through the withdrawals. Puke...not my cup of tea but I suppose it helps some.


So what happened with Spaceghost after he came out of the closet as a madhatter? Did he get a free pass because he his the founding father of divorce?

When I used to read that board regularly, I noticed everything was fine if you posted first about your spouse cheating on you. As long as you let that ride for a while, they wouldn't have an issue once you reveal you are a madhatter.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Jus260 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, the moral highhorse is well alive on that site if you are a BS. *Like Madhatters are excoriated way more than their WS*. They propagandise terms like Fog and equate it all to their poor Wayward being a lovesick addict that needs a little time to go through the withdrawals. Puke...not my cup of tea but I suppose it helps some.
> 
> 
> 
> So what happened with Spaceghost after he came out of the closet as a madhatter? Did he get a free pass because he his the founding father of divorce?
> 
> When I used to read that board regularly, I noticed everything was fine if you posted first about your spouse cheating on you. As long as you let that ride for a while, they wouldn't have an issue once you reveal you are a madhatter.
Click to expand...

If you are a madhatter, they make you post in the wayward forum. I madhatted a a few weeks after Dday and holy hell it was like I mudered a litter of puppies. I knew our marriage was over, so I didn't GAF, but apparently I am one of those remorseless waywards that 'don't get it'. The mods blacklisted me after I admitted madhatting. Anyways, I stuck around a little longer before getting banned. You can't post in JFO, but you can post in General with everyone else.

Spaceghost seems to be somewhat a superstar on that site, so not sure they banished him to the wayward forum after he admitted to banging the OM's wife. If he is still posting in JFO then I guess they gave him a pass.

They have so many ridiculous rules over there, but they have zero problem with you fantasizing over murdering the AP. The amount of bitterness over there is astonishing.


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## Jasel

I remember reading her thread but not the details. From what I've read it doesn't sound like she provided too many before it was deleted.

As for the husband, I feel for the guy but obviously he has issues of his own. I read his thread too but will probably avoid it from this point.

I'll never be comfortable with the BS like that who fight so hard to go from being a doormat to toilet paper.


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## 3Xnocharm

Can someone explain to us SI virgins what a madhatter is?


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## TAMAT

madhatter someone who is a BS and WS


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## Blondilocks

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you are a madhatter, they make you post in the wayward forum. I madhatted a a few weeks after Dday and holy hell it was like I mudered a litter of puppies. I knew our marriage was over, so I didn't GAF, but apparently I am one of those remorseless waywards that 'don't get it'. The mods blacklisted me after I admitted madhatting. Anyways, I stuck around a little longer before getting banned. You can't post in JFO, but you can post in General with everyone else.
> 
> Spaceghost seems to be somewhat a superstar on that site, so not sure they banished him to the wayward forum after he admitted to banging the OM's wife. If he is still posting in JFO then I guess they gave him a pass.
> 
> They have so many ridiculous rules over there, but they have zero problem with you fantasizing over murdering the AP. The amount of bitterness over there is astonishing.


Spaceghost was either separated or divorced when he had his revenge screw.


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## Blondilocks

Taxman said:


> What I do not quite understand in all of this is, SIX BLOODY YEARS? I have difficulty understanding how a betrayed spouse can say they want the fantasy of a life back with the wayward spouse when the marriage was a complete fallacy for six years. I read her posts, she wants him, without the pain and work necessary. She is the ultimate rug sweeper. *She claims not to want him to engage in revenge*, however, I believe the best revenge would be for her to sit on the sidelines while she watches him go on to a great life without her. I know that little delicate bubble all too well. She is sitting in fantasy land, hoping beyond hope that he will just develop amnesia, and the feces that she completely and regularly rubbed on the marriage will be forgotten. He will be her one and only until she gets another itch between the labia. (seen that one as well.) Nope. I hope that she watches as he moves off, hopefully with someone that she knows so that those movies can play in her head for the next decade. She can watch her children love love love the new stepmom. She can be all alone, as that is the karma of this. She can watch her exHusband be happy and fulfilled, WITHOUT HER. She can see that as she ages, the good guys go off with good women. She is not one of them. She can marinate while he repairs his life. That is the universe seeking balance.


Of course she doesn't. There is only one entitled royal in her fairy tale. We see this attitude a lot - "I'm special and can do what I want. You can't, na-na-nah-na".


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## Jus260

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you are a madhatter, they make you post in the wayward forum. I madhatted a a few weeks after Dday and holy hell it was like I mudered a litter of puppies. I knew our marriage was over, so I didn't GAF, but apparently I am one of those remorseless waywards that 'don't get it'. The mods blacklisted me after I admitted madhatting. Anyways, I stuck around a little longer before getting banned. You can't post in JFO, but you can post in General with everyone else.
> 
> Spaceghost seems to be somewhat a superstar on that site, so not sure they banished him to the wayward forum after he admitted to banging the OM's wife. If he is still posting in JFO then I guess they gave him a pass.
> 
> They have so many ridiculous rules over there, but they have zero problem with you fantasizing over murdering the AP. The amount of bitterness over there is astonishing.


You must not have sounded pathetic enough in your thread. I saw on more than one occasion a guy started a thread about being cheated on then revealed that he was a madhatter. They already felt sorry enough for him that they let the thread continue. I remember specifically one guy said he was a madhatter then someone posted that they were pretty sure that there was a rule that they couldn't post in JFO. By that point he built up so much sympathy that they just rolled with it.


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## Nrecnocymton

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> The creaters and mods all reconciled with their cheaters.


Wifehad5 BH R
WalkingOnEggshelz WW R
Sassylee BW R
Sisoon BH R
lieshurt BW D
5454Real BH R
Chysalis123 BW D
EvolviingSoul WW R
numb&dumb BH R
Phoenix1 BW R
Skan BW R
TrustGone BW D

Founders
Deeply Scared WW R (Deceased)
MangledHeart BH R


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## Blondilocks

Nrecnocymton said:


> Wifehad5 BH R
> WalkingOnEggshelz WW R
> Sassylee BW R
> Sisoon BH R
> lieshurt BW D
> 5454Real BH R
> Chysalis123 BW D
> EvolviingSoul WW R
> numb&dumb BH R
> Phoenix1 BW R
> Skan BW R
> TrustGone BW D
> 
> Founders
> Deeply Scared BH R
> MangledHeart WW R (Deceased)


Deeply Scared was the WW and is deceased.
MangledHeart BH


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## Taxman

I don't want this thread to become an SI bashing party, but the truth is that they push reconciliation in the worst of circumstances. I just finished reading "Clint's" postings. 13 years after his WW's affair, he has come to the conclusion that it was a mistake to reconcile. He plans on divorcing her. From my perspective, after being in this business for a few decades is that he is justified, he has put in the work, and he cannot help it if his view of her is negative. From his posts, he says that it has forever changed him for the worst. I believe that he should divorce. If only to find a modicum of happiness. BUT NO! SI has been down this poor SOB's throat, how dare he throw away the reconciliation, his poor WW!! The load of horse feces is stupendous. If I posted there, I would say to them that he should walk right up to her and say, sorry for wasting 13 years. I can't forgive you. For my own mental health, I have to end this marriage.

At the end of the thread, Clint told the mods to lock the thread, and he made a polite exit. To be frank, I would have told them to f#ck-off.
Given their attitudes, it surprises me that they have not suffered more ddos attacks. There was one about five years ago that took them out for nearly a week.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Taxman said:


> At the end of the thread, Clint told the mods to lock the thread, and he made a polite exit. To be frank, I would have told them to f#ck-off.
> Given their attitudes, it surprises me that they have not suffered more ddos attacks. There was one about five years ago that took them out for nearly a week.


Well see, that's the thing.

If you're a ball-less, gut-less wonder, they're ALL over you like a rat on a cheeto, clucking their tongues and encouraging you to keep fighting the good fight to reconcile no matter how egregiously you've been disrespected. 

And here some of them are STILL trying to push their agenda on this poster who probably *was* one of those ball-less, gut-less wonders 13 years ago who allowed the 'flock' to encourage him to stay when he should have left. God FORBID anyone encourage _anything_ but prideless reconciliation at *all* costs to the newly betrayed. But *this* time around, he wasn't taking their 'advice' and what do you know - there's a mutiny on the bounty.

I'm not surprised at ALL that the reconcile-at-all-costs-crowd turned on him when he mentioned the dirty, dirty word 'divorce.' They've brainwashed themselves so thoroughly at this point that most of them honestly believe that a BS should just forgive any disgusting behavior their WS doled out to them and be grateful they still have their hooks in their cheater. I really don't think they can actually fathom what it's like to have true self respect.


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## Rubix Cubed

Taxman said:


> *If I posted there,* I would say to them that he should walk right up to her and say, sorry for wasting 13 years.


 I thought you did, but not as Taxman.


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## Spoons027

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Well see, that's the thing.
> 
> If you're a ball-less, gut-less wonder, they're ALL over you like a rat on a cheeto, clucking their tongues and encouraging you to keep fighting the good fight to reconcile no matter how egregiously you've been disrespected.
> 
> And here some of them are STILL trying to push their agenda on this poster who probably *was* one of those ball-less, gut-less wonders 13 years ago who allowed the 'flock' to encourage him to stay when he should have left. God FORBID anyone encourage _anything_ but prideless reconciliation at *all* costs to the newly betrayed. But *this* time around, he wasn't taking their 'advice' and what do you know - there's a mutiny on the bounty.
> 
> I'm not surprised at ALL that the reconcile-at-all-costs-crowd turned on him when he mentioned the dirty, dirty word 'divorce.' They've brainwashed themselves so thoroughly at this point that most of them honestly believe that a BS should just forgive any disgusting behavior their WS doled out to them and be grateful they still have their hooks in their cheater. I really don't think they can actually fathom what it's like to have true self respect.


And that's the sad thing. Especially posters who are 'getting through' long-term affairs.

Even up to now, a lot of the members post about how they still think about the affair or how they wonder if R is worth it. And many have been 'in R' for years.

But more power to them, I suppose.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Blondilocks said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are a madhatter, they make you post in the wayward forum. I madhatted a a few weeks after Dday and holy hell it was like I mudered a litter of puppies. I knew our marriage was over, so I didn't GAF, but apparently I am one of those remorseless waywards that 'don't get it'. The mods blacklisted me after I admitted madhatting. Anyways, I stuck around a little longer before getting banned. You can't post in JFO, but you can post in General with everyone else.
> 
> Spaceghost seems to be somewhat a superstar on that site, so not sure they banished him to the wayward forum after he admitted to banging the OM's wife. If he is still posting in JFO then I guess they gave him a pass.
> 
> They have so many ridiculous rules over there, but they have zero problem with you fantasizing over murdering the AP. The amount of bitterness over there is astonishing.
> 
> 
> 
> Spaceghost was either separated or divorced when he had his revenge screw.
Click to expand...

He still screwed a married woman, so maybe that is something different.


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## Taxman

Rubix Cubed said:


> I thought you did, but not as Taxman.


Nope, have not been registered there for at least five years now.


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## Rubix Cubed

Taxman said:


> Nope, have not been registered there for at least five years now.


 Hhhmmmm. There is somebody there that writes just like you, even down to some client stories.
Glad I didn't reply as if it was you.


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## sokillme

Taxman said:


> Nope, have not been registered there for at least five years now.


Someone is stealing your shtick then. 

That place is a codependent's support group at best. I think the Wayward side is good though, there are some good posters there. carpenoctem being the best. Sometime I feel like I am reading one of my old posts when I read his. He would fit in here. 

hikingout is progressing, but I still don't think she gets what the fallout would be if her husband divorced her. With a different less nice husband her life would be a lot harder. I would have divorced her. These WS are very lucky to have spouses who basically hold their hands while they fix their damage. It saves them from an empty life of failed relationships, and none of them get that. It's not like they are going to just move on to a great marriage with someone else, not with out real work. 

The JFO section is good up until the point of exposure, but then it's codependent city. 

The R site does real long lasting damage to peoples lives. It's like a codependent's drug dealer, and it's set up and monitored in such a way as to avoid that being pointed out.

Gross.


----------



## Blondilocks

sokillme said:


> Someone is stealing your shtick then.
> 
> That place is a codependent's support group at best. I think the Wayward side is good though, there are some good posters there. carpenoctem being the best. Sometime I feel like I am reading one of my old posts when I read his. *He would fit in here. *
> 
> hikingout is progressing, but I still don't think she gets what the fallout would be if her husband divorced her. With a different less nice husband her life would be a lot harder. I would have divorced her. These WS are very lucky to have spouses who basically hold their hands while they fix their damage. It saves them from an empty life of failed relationships, and none of them get that. It's not like they are going to just move on to a great marriage with someone else, not with out real work.
> 
> The JFO section is good up until the point of exposure, but then it's codependent city.
> 
> The R site does real long lasting damage to peoples lives. It's like a codependent's drug dealer, and it's set up and monitored in such a way as to avoid that being pointed out.
> 
> Gross.


He is a member here.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

I've been in R for almost 6 years and things are pretty good...my W had a one month sting after 15y married.....I know I am in no place to say much but dam this business of 6 and 9 and 12 year affairs, I mean wth do you call that? That ain't just no affair, that's living a second life with someone with a dual personality ..good lord, even if I wanted I dont know how could that ever work again, what's there to R for? The whole thing was a fake!!


----------



## farsidejunky

Kamstel said:


> It’s my opinion that that site is run by a group of individuals who firmly believe that cheating is a minor mistake, and that everyone should reconcile at all costs!
> 
> While I’m not sure if it true or not, but some have told me that it was created by a couple of cheaters.
> 
> They definitely take a hard line on those who are strong in their belief that best step to divorce or BTB.


Conversely, one could make a similar value judgment about this site in that it believes reconciliation should never be an option.

Both your quote and my hypothetical do not necessarily represent the majority of folks on each of these sites, but rather what is so often the most vocal.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

Blondilocks said:


> He is a member here.


Who is he? Cause GD sometimes reading the clarity in his posts are like a breath of fresh air.


----------



## sokillme

CantBelieveThis said:


> I've been in R for almost 6 years and things are pretty good...my W had a one month sting after 15y married.....I know I am in no place to say much but dam this business of 6 and 9 and 12 year affairs, I mean wth do you call that? That ain't just no affair, that's living a second life with someone with a dual personality ..good lord, even if I wanted I dont know how could that ever work again, what's there to R for? The whole thing was a fake!!


Did you catch your wife of did she confess?


----------



## sokillme

farsidejunky said:


> Conversely, one could make a similar value judgment about this site in that it believes reconciliation should never be an option.
> 
> Both your quote and my hypothetical do not necessarily represent the majority of folks on each of these sites, but rather what is so often the most vocal.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Even I don't think reconciliation should never be an option. I think it should be very rare and probably not a good idea for most.


----------



## Blondilocks

sokillme said:


> Who is he? Cause GD sometimes reading the clarity in his posts are like a breath of fresh air.


The same name. Use Advanced Search and you'll find the threads where he posted.


----------



## sokillme

Blondilocks said:


> The same name. Use Advanced Search and you'll find the threads where he posted.


He hasn't posted in years though. Pretty much before I got here.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

sokillme said:


> Did you catch your wife of did she confess?


caught...pretty darn good too....but i dont think it matters, i have yet to see anyone confess an affair that wasnt under stress of being found out imminently....cheaters do all behave almost exactly the same, scripted...the last thing they want is be found out, i feel horrible for those people living not knowing they have been cheated on, and from what I read thats a large majority, thats so irritating.....


----------



## sokillme

CantBelieveThis said:


> caught...pretty darn good too....but i dont think it matters, i have yet to see anyone confess an affair that wasnt under stress of being found out imminently....cheaters do all behave almost exactly the same, scripted...the last thing they want is be found out, i feel horrible for those people living not knowing they have been cheated on, and from what I read thats a large majority, thats so irritating.....


So how do you know it wouldn't have gone on for years if it wasn't caught though. Which is kind why I feel like the time thing doesn't matter, it's still a double life. The length usually only comes down to execution of that double life and your BS's perception. Like you said the one who confess are very very rare.


----------



## Taxman

sokillme said:


> Someone is stealing your shtick then.
> 
> 
> Gross.


Actually there have been at least two that seem to be professionals in my field. There seems to be one or two accountants, and one or two that seem to come from my "tribe". :grin2:

In so far as their attitude toward reconciliation, they seem to treat it as a one size fits all proposition. I generally do not see them first, generally it is the four or five law firms that send me cases where the finances are so intertwined that it needs a long form analysis of who owns what. This does not mean they are getting unhitched, it just provides a roadmap toward financial settlement. I see reconciliation as only one outcome. I say to each and every person sitting in front of me that reconciliation is not for the weak, nor is it for the insecure. If the process was initiated by infidelity, then I will generally give them the lecture about being cold and dispassionate about this part of the process. Money comes and goes. You go into this knowing someone wins and someone loses. If they have separated for any other reason, I generally make a comment, that there will be emotional challenges. They generally need to prepare themselves for spousal detachment, and eventual alternate partnering. SI drops the ball when it comes to divorce. I believe their support of SpaceGhost was anomalous. Then, when he had a few days of revenge on the OM with OMW, they turned.


----------



## MyRevelation

SI is as bad (pro R) as you all claim.

However, TAM isn’t immune ... IMHO, there is a current thread in Private that’s as bad or worse than SI.


----------



## sokillme

MyRevelation said:


> SI is as bad (pro R) as you all claim.
> 
> However, TAM isn’t immune ... IMHO, there is a current thread in Private that’s as bad or worse than SI.


I think that thread is balanced. It's also so bad that it's been hard to believe at times. I think that brings out peoples emotions. But the responses are pro and con and that really is all that is needed. The problem with SI is you can't be con, or be very vocal about being con because if you are they will ban you. Often times if the point is sharp and very truthful that is just too much for them.


----------



## personofinterest

MyRevelation said:


> SI is as bad (pro R) as you all claim.
> 
> However, TAM isn’t immune ... IMHO, there is a current thread in Private that’s as bad or worse than SI.


Eh, I dont know anyone on TAM who is pro-R on that thread.

There are just people with some empathy who have the audacity not to be disappointed children's mother didn't die.


----------



## MyRevelation

OK ... take the pro-R slant out of it. Break it down to the basics. SI gives terrible advice that tends to keep people in perpetual limbo. How is TAM not doing the same thing in the thread here?

Assuming it’s true, which I find harder to believe every day, he is being advised to stay in an untenable situation, rather than be smart and sever all ties, including parental rights, and take his sons and leave the area.

... or possibly better yet, quit feeding into a situation that is way past the ability of an internet infidelity board to offer competent advice.


----------



## Imajerk17

Interesting thread! I do need to read some more of the responses on here. These are my observations:

1. I have browsed through SI. Different subforums at SI seem to have different attitudes. on the Just Found Out subforum the prevailing attitude is to 'tar and feather the biatch'. As in lawyer up, divorce, and expose to her family and friends. The Wayward is of course more about recovering the marriage. So anyway I don't think SI is all the pro-reconciliation. I mean, many BHs DO decide to reconcile, but if one came in and decided that he was done he would be supported and cheered on all the way.

2. I will give SI this though. If you compare the attitudes of the WWs on SI versus in reality (even on the Waywards forum), at least the WWs are trying to own what they did. They ARE doing the work, to varying degrees at least. The prevailing attitude is that the affair was about the shortcomings in the wayward herself and NOT her husband or marriage. It is no where like that away from SI. In real life you have cheaters who are seemingly unrepentant, still deep in the fog, who feel that they are entitled to at least half of their H's wealth.

I came here from another forum, Loveshack, where I was permabanned for swinging a 2x4 that wouldn't even register at SI.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> Eh, I dont know anyone on TAM who is pro-R on that thread.
> 
> There are just people with some empathy who have the audacity not to be disappointed children's mother didn't die.


And others who spend their time assessing the opinions of others and commenting about it. >


----------



## sokillme

MyRevelation said:


> OK ... take the pro-R slant out of it. Break it down to the basics. SI gives terrible advice that tends to keep people in perpetual limbo. How is TAM not doing the same thing in the thread here?
> 
> Assuming it’s true, which I find harder to believe every day, he is being advised to stay in an untenable situation, rather than be smart and sever all ties, including parental rights, and take his sons and leave the area.
> 
> ... or possibly better yet, quit feeding into a situation that is way past the ability of an internet infidelity board to offer competent advice.


I think it's just that some of us don't think having the mother of his children, one of them being special needs, commit suicide would improve his situation at the moment. Better to wait she is more stable first, better he is more stable as well. He is not ready to leave yet anyway.


----------



## sokillme

Imajerk17 said:


> Interesting thread! I do need to read some more of the responses on here. These are my observations:
> 
> 1. I have browsed through SI. Different subforums at SI seem to have different attitudes. on the Just Found Out subforum the prevailing attitude is to 'tar and feather the biatch'. As in lawyer up, divorce, and expose to her family and friends. The Wayward is of course more about recovering the marriage. So anyway I don't think SI is all the pro-reconciliation. I mean, many BHs DO decide to reconcile, but if one came in and decided that he was done he would be supported and cheered on all the way.
> 
> 2. I will give SI this though. If you compare the attitudes of the WWs on SI versus in reality (even on the Waywards forum), at least the WWs are trying to own what they did. They ARE doing the work, to varying degrees at least. The prevailing attitude is that the affair was about the shortcomings in the wayward herself and NOT her husband or marriage. It is no where like that away from SI. In real life you have cheaters who are seemingly unrepentant, still deep in the fog, who feel that they are entitled to at least half of their H's wealth.
> 
> I came here from another forum, Loveshack, where I was permabanned for swinging a 2x4 that wouldn't even register at SI.


Interestingly there is about 5 regular posters on the W forum and about 25 new posters every day to the JFO forum. If that isn't the best defense of the "divorce most of time" crowd like me then I don't know what else is. The numbers should at least be equal if not reversed.


----------



## Imajerk17

Imajerk17 said:


> Interesting thread! I do need to read some more of the responses on here. These are my observations:
> 
> 1. I have browsed through SI. Different subforums at SI seem to have different attitudes. on the Just Found Out subforum the prevailing attitude is to 'tar and feather the biatch'. As in lawyer up, divorce, and expose to her family and friends. The Wayward is of course more about recovering the marriage. So anyway I don't think SI is all the pro-reconciliation. I mean, many BHs DO decide to reconcile, but if one came in and decided that he was done he would be supported and cheered on all the way.
> 
> 2. I will give SI this though. If you compare the attitudes of the WWs on SI versus in reality (even on the Waywards forum), at least the WWs are trying to own what they did. They ARE doing the work, to varying degrees at least. The prevailing attitude is that the affair was about the shortcomings in the wayward herself and NOT her husband or marriage. It is no where like that away from SI. In real life you have cheaters who are seemingly unrepentant, still deep in the fog, who feel that they are entitled to at least half of their H's wealth.
> 
> I came here from another forum, Loveshack, where I was permabanned for swinging a 2x4 that wouldn't even register at SI.


I will say a bit more about this.

In real life the attitude of the WW (even after D-day and the fallout) is all too often 'I cheated because my H was not meeting my emotional and physical needs and OM was'. On SI the prevailing attitude to WW is 'No you cheated because there was something broken inside you that allowed you to do this, so own it'.

So while I don't think I could be pro-reconciliation, I don't think SI coddles cheaters the way everyone on here seems to say that they do.


----------



## sokillme

Imajerk17 said:


> I will say a bit more about this.
> 
> In real life the attitude of the WW (even after D-day and the fallout) is all too often 'I cheated because my H was not meeting my emotional and physical needs and OM was'. On SI the prevailing attitude to WW is 'No you cheated because there was something broken inside you that allowed you to do this, so own it'.
> 
> So while I don't think I could be pro-reconciliation, I don't think SI coddles cheaters the way everyone on here seems to say that they do.


You say WW like the men don't do the same thing.


----------



## personofinterest

sokillme said:


> Imajerk17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will say a bit more about this.
> 
> In real life the attitude of the WW (even after D-day and the fallout) is all too often 'I cheated because my H was not meeting my emotional and physical needs and OM was'. On SI the prevailing attitude to WW is 'No you cheated because there was something broken inside you that allowed you to do this, so own it'.
> 
> So while I don't think I could be pro-reconciliation, I don't think SI coddles cheaters the way everyone on here seems to say that they do.
> 
> 
> 
> You say WW like the men don't do the same thing.
Click to expand...

Uou missed the memo lol


----------



## Imajerk17

sokillme said:


> Interestingly there is about 5 regular posters on the WW forum and about 25 new posters every day to the JFO forum. If that isn't the best defense of the "divorce most of time" crowd like me then I don't know what else is. The numbers should at least be equal if not reversed.


SI is a self-selecting community, or rather the WW subforum is. The several regulars on the WW forum are the ones who are willing to do the work. And this includes calling out any new WWs who come on with their story. [Although there are a couple long-term WWs on that forum who seem incredibly foggy.]

People who post on the JFO are given some pretty 'hard' advice--yes indeed she is cheating, yes they ****ed already, no don't try to Nice her back aka Do The Pick-Me Dance, yes you need to lawyer up, file for divorce, go 180, and expose expose expose.

As I said in my other posts on here, I do not think so much blame is heaped onto the cheater in real life as in SI.


----------



## personofinterest

"sever all ties, including parental rights, and take his sons and leave the area."

He probably wont do that because he loves ALL the children he has raised....probably because he has more character than some of his "advisors."


----------



## Imajerk17

sokillme said:


> You say WW like the men don't do the same thing.


Of course. I was focusing on infidelity where it is the man who was betrayed. 

Absolutely men who cheat are called out on SI for their shortcomings and 'my wife wouldn't have sex with me enough' won't cut it.


----------



## MyRevelation

personofinterest said:


> "sever all ties, including parental rights, and take his sons and leave the area."
> 
> He probably wont do that because he loves ALL the children he has raised....probably because he has more character than some of his "advisors."


Pure BS ... he’s crazier than she is, and he’s known from day 1 that the girl wasn’t his. He simply chooses to deny reality and live in his altered state of how he wishes things were. 

10 years ago, he could have gotten out of this cluster with 1 healthy son and reasonable visitation. Everything he’s done since that day has been to deny the reality of his situation and make it worse, by continuing to enable his guano crazy WW.

You’re mistaking crazy for character.


----------



## Blondilocks

MyRevelation said:


> Pure BS ... he’s crazier than she is, and he’s known from day 1 that the girl wasn’t his. He simply chooses to deny reality and live in his altered state of how he wishes things were.
> 
> 10 years ago, he could have gotten out of this cluster with 1 healthy son and reasonable visitation. Everything he’s done since that day has been to deny the reality of his situation and make it worse, by continuing to enable his guano crazy WW.
> 
> You’re mistaking crazy for character.


Tell us what you really think. Be quick about it, though, before you get your well-deserved ban.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Imajerk17 said:


> I came here from another forum, Loveshack, where I was permabanned for swinging a 2x4 that wouldn't even register at SI.


 SI may lean pro R (I don't think it's quite as bad as some make it out to be, at least JFO) but Loveshack is chock full of dreadful advice giving apologists.

I don't think I have ever closed out of TAM out of disgust. Happens on SI occasionally and LS just about every time I take a look.


----------



## Imajerk17

Rubix Cubed said:


> SI may lean pro R (I don't think it's quite as bad as some make it out to be, at least JFO) but Loveshack is chock full of dreadful advice giving apologists.
> 
> I don't think I have ever closed out of TAM out of disgust. Happens on SI occasionally and LS just about every time I take a look.



LS was the worst. The Other Man/Other Woman subforum was basically a whole flock of Wayward Wives feeding into their own and each others' victim mentality about being exploited by their so-called heartless MMs. They fail to acknowledge how ironic their complaining is as they are the ones who are heartlessly deceiving their husbands and families.

It started with the old head moderator of LS, I believe--who just left. He seemed to see himself as a reformed MM, but in reality he was more like an orbiter who was an emotional tampon to married women. He would listen to them complain about their husbands hoping it would be a romantic/sexual "in" for him.

But I digress. Even the Wayward Side subforum at SI will not allow someone who cheated to wallow in self-pity. People who post their stories on there and try to deflect the blame for their cheating will be called out for that.


----------



## Spoons027

Imajerk17 said:


> But I digress. Even the Wayward Side subforum at SI will not allow someone who cheated to wallow in self-pity. People who post their stories on there and try to deflect the blame for their cheating will be called out for that.


Gotta give SI credit there. There was a once cheater who actually brought their AP onto SI and into the Wayward Forum. They were technically continuing their emotional affair in front of everyone's faces. Then later admitted that they went physical after both of them posted on there. Thankfully, it was shut down since the affair was apparently still ongoing and the thread was closed. 

But yeah, it was one of the head-shaking, make-you-close-out threads.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I don't think Waywards are any more 'broken' than their BS's. I think given the right (or wrong) situation that we are all capable of adultery. The problem is some put themselves in stupid situations that make them more prone to cheating.

Unless they are a CSA victim, I dont think the prevailing mantra of IC and MC will 'fix' anyone. Some people are just inherently selfish and had no business being married in the first place. I think that is where SI falls short, thinking all waywards are hurt little puppies that can be patched up and become loyal guard dogs.


----------



## TAMAT

I suspect given that Caused Chaos was able to pull of a six year affair that she has pretty good concealment and deflection skills. I would also suspect she has convinced Received Chaos to stop posting.

It's alternately possible he stopped posting because he discovered tons of other stuff and just gave up.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

sokillme said:


> So how do you know it wouldn't have gone on for years if it wasn't caught though. Which is kind why I feel like the time thing doesn't matter, it's still a double life. The length usually only comes down to execution of that double life and your BS's perception. Like you said the one who confess are very very rare.


She would been too dumb to pull that off....they get wreckless pretty quick for the most part..., but pulling off years thru holidays and wat not, that takes some skill I think, or a totally blind BS that doesnt want to know or find out.


----------



## Imajerk17

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> *I don't think Waywards are any more 'broken' than their BS's.* I think given the right (or wrong) situation that we are all capable of adultery. The problem is some put themselves in stupid situations that make them more prone to cheating.
> 
> Unless they are a CSA victim, I dont think the prevailing mantra of IC and MC will 'fix' anyone. Some people are just inherently selfish and had no business being married in the first place. I think that is where SI falls short, thinking all waywards are hurt little puppies that can be patched up and become loyal guard dogs.


There are things I agree with on here and things I disagree with on here.

1. I largely agree with what I bolded. People cheat because they felt attraction to someone else and they acted on it. SI loves to push the mantra that all cheaters are broken but that is largely NOT the viewpoint away from SI. Google "Women's Infidelity" by Michelle Langley about the thought process that many women in even happy marriages undergo when entering into an affair. It was an eye-opening read. 

2. I don't think that the message peddled on SI says all waywards can be converted to great spouses, at all. So I DISagree with you completely here. I have no idea where people here are even getting this. The advice given to waywards who come on the forum seeking help IS to 'do the work and fix yourself', but the advice given to BS who come to SI usually is pretty 'hard' towards the cheating spouse--lawyer up, expose to family friends, file for divorce. Furthermore, if a wayward came even to the Waywards subforum on SI to cry about how her spouse wants a divorce after her affair and 'what can she do to stop this', the advice she would be given is 'that's too bad, you should have thought of all this before you cheated, it's his choice now, now all you can do is work on yourself and be transparent'.

ReceivedChaos decided to stay with his WW, that is completely on him. It just boggles my mind how other posters on here (you too?) are suggesting that SI is what encouraged him to. If anything most posters on SI would have advised him to run a long time ago.


----------



## ShatteredKat

the WS is "CausedChaos" and the BS is "ReceivedChaos" - if you are registered you can go to your profile and there is a search window to find
"members"

It is a Bizarre set of posts - but not really - people do all kinds of horrible and/or strange stuff.

CausedChaos last post is Feb 17 - BS appears to be missing a slice or two out of his loaf. BS (oops I meant WS) - just an ordinary no-morals female.
"if it moves, screw it?"


----------



## sokillme

Read the post "I No Longer..." in the R board. If that doesn't sum up R better I don't know what does. Most of the time if you are advocating for R this is what you are advising people to do. So sad.

R is stupid.

Then there is the post "Limerance, soul mate yada yada"

Just once I wish someone would say. 

Hell yeah dude, you're damn right, tell your wife to **** off. Why are you wasting your life. Don't settle, it's not you it's her. 

That is what I would say then they would delete the post and band me.


----------



## Spoons027

sokillme said:


> Then there is the post "Limerance, soul mate yada yada"
> 
> Just once I wish someone would say.
> 
> Hell yeah dude, you're damn right, tell your wife to **** off. Why are you wasting your life. Don't settle, it's not you it's her.
> 
> That is what I would say then they would delete the post and band me.


Ha. There is a particular recent thread there that’s making me want to give that exact type of response.

“If you’re not sure if you even want to R, then why are you still trying? You keep saying you’re hurting your spouse when you keep thinking about the AP, yet you do nothing to actively stop it. Just go be with AP, stop wasting your and your spouse’s time, and be done with it. No more of this waffling bs while you’re supposedly in R.”

Guaranteed ban hammer right there.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Imajerk17 said:


> ...but the advice given to BS who come to SI usually is pretty 'hard' towards the cheating spouse--lawyer up, expose to family friends, file for divorce.


They're giving that 'advice' to the BS as a way to scare/shock their cheater into stopping what they're doing and coming back to the marriage, not because they think the BS should divorce their cheater.

It's just another prideless tactic they recommend to the BS to use in the hopes of getting their WS to stop their affair when the cheater won't stop it on their own steam. I don't know, but if I had a cheater that I had to threaten/scare/coerce into dumping his affair partner because he *wouldn't do it on his own*, then I don't WANT his sorry ass back.



> ReceivedChaos decided to stay with his WW, that is completely on him. It just boggles my mind how other posters on here are suggesting that SI is what encouraged him to. If anything most posters on SI would have advised him to run a long time ago.


 There are plenty over there who are only too happy to push the Reconciliation agenda no matter what. Especially the old order ones who have been around for years and consider themselves experts. And once a deluded BS moves over to that pitiful 'Reconciliation' board because they _think_ they're reconciling, they'll just be deluded even MORE into thinking it's a good idea because nothing negative is allowed on that board. Only positive molly-coddling, tongue-clucking and back patting "support" is allowed. You see BS's on that board constantly posting about continued crap their cheater is still getting up to when they're supposedly reconciling and these saps are encouraging each other to stick with it but to 'lay down the rules' and it will all magically get better. 



sokillme said:


> Read the post "I No Longer..." in the R board. If that doesn't sum up R better I don't know what does. Most of the time if you are advocating for R this is what you are advising people to do. So sad.


I couldn't agree more. And I'm willing to bet most of these posters (if not all) passed through that Reconciliation board and were encouraged to keep at it no matter what.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think Waywards are any more 'broken' than their BS's. I think given the right (or wrong) situation that we are all capable of adultery. The problem is some put themselves in stupid situations that make them more prone to cheating.
> 
> Unless they are a CSA victim, I dont think the prevailing mantra of IC and MC will 'fix' anyone. Some people are just inherently selfish and had no business being married in the first place. I think that is where SI falls short, thinking all waywards are hurt little puppies that can be patched up and become loyal guard dogs.


Absolutely.

I've never seen so many brainwashed people in one place who think therapy is the magic answer for *everything*.

It isn't. Not even close.


----------



## bandit.45

> I largely agree with what I bolded. People cheat because they felt attraction to someone else and they acted on it


.

I agree with this. I don't think all people fall into affairs because they are broken or dysfunctional by nature. Many, many affairs are caused by the good old Biblical drives of greed and lust. I have argued many times, ad nauseum, that good old-fashioned lust is one of the biggest drivers of affairs. 

Just because your husband or wife marries you does not automatically kill their physical and sexual attraction to others. People get into affairs because the boundaries that are supposed to be in place to prevent a person from acting on his or her lust have been dropped on purpose or were never in place to begin with.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> Read the post "I No Longer..." in the R board. If that doesn't sum up R better I don't know what does. Most of the time if you are advocating for R this is what you are advising people to do. So sad.
> 
> R is stupid.


I went over and read that. How depressing, what a bunch of sad sacks. I find it funny him referred to his cheater as a fWW. Obviously, he can remove the "f" for former if he can no longer trust her (as he shouldn't), unless of course the "f" stands for something else...

R sounds like a losing game. I mean I can understand why people do it when there are little kids in the picture. Everyone stays out of fear, but if they could see the other side without their cheater and as a co-parent I think they wouldn't all be a bunch of scared puppies and likely even find a worthwhile life and partner to grow old with.


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> .
> 
> I agree with this. I don't think all people fall into affairs because they are broken or dysfunctional by nature. Many, many affairs are caused by the good old Biblical drives of greed and lust. I have argued many times, ad nauseum, that good old-fashioned lust is one of the biggest drivers of affairs.
> 
> Just because your husband or wife marries you does not automatically kill their physical and sexual attraction to others. People get into affairs because the boundaries that are supposed to be in place to prevent a person from acting on his or her lust have been dropped on purpose or were never in place to begin with.


QFT.


----------



## Loveshorror

I have followed TAM and SI for awhile, but here I am as I like this site more. I think one of the worst things SI does is not actually get BSs out of infidelity. I can think of at least three people off the top of my head who are no further than they were at least 3 years ago - they are basically wallowing. But others still tell them “hang in there - you’re so strong!” No, you're not, you’re fearful and probably CoD. If someone points this out or tries to push them along then that person is not being supportive. 

Heck - you know it’s bad when long-time, pro-Rers on that site are asking the BS why they haven’t divorced their WS. That just happened today.


----------



## GoldenR

Caused chaos actually posted her story in one of her replies. I didn't see it, but she went back and erased it bc even those guys were like, "Jesus! Wtf?" .


----------



## Imajerk17

She'sStillGotIt said:


> They're giving that 'advice' to the BS as a way to scare/shock their cheater into stopping what they're doing and coming back to the marriage, not because they think the BS should divorce their cheater.
> 
> It's just another prideless tactic they recommend to the BS to use in the hopes of getting their WS to stop their affair when the cheater won't stop it on their own steam. I don't know, but if I had a cheater that I had to threaten/scare/coerce into dumping his affair partner because he *wouldn't do it on his own*, then I don't WANT his sorry ass back.


See I actually disagree with this. I DO agree that too many BSs are all too eager to rugsweep/reconcile, or are clearly dragging their feet on protecting themselves legally. And so they are given the 'hard' advice and being told that this is the only way to wake up the WS out of their fog. But, that definitely doesn't mean that BSs are pushed towards reconciliation and if anything they are pushed AWAY from reconciliation, period. 






> There are plenty over there who are only too happy to push the Reconciliation agenda no matter what. Especially the old order ones who have been around for years and consider themselves experts. And once a deluded BS moves over to that pitiful 'Reconciliation' board because they _think_ they're reconciling, they'll just be deluded even MORE into thinking it's a good idea because nothing negative is allowed on that board. Only positive molly-coddling, tongue-clucking and back patting "support" is allowed. You see BS's on that board constantly posting about continued crap their cheater is still getting up to when they're supposedly reconciling and these saps are encouraging each other to stick with it but to 'lay down the rules' and it will all magically get better.
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree more. And I'm willing to bet most of these posters (if not all) passed through that Reconciliation board and were encouraged to keep at it no matter what.


I just checked the reconciliation section and saw at least one negative thread active now. Near the top of the first page..


----------



## Sauvie Island

_" I agree with this. I don't think all people fall into affairs because they are broken or dysfunctional by nature. Many, many affairs are caused by the good old Biblical drives of greed and lust. I have argued many times, ad nauseum, that good old-fashioned lust is one of the biggest drivers of affairs. 

Just because your husband or wife marries you does not automatically kill their physical and sexual attraction to others. People get into affairs because the boundaries that are supposed to be in place to prevent a person from acting on his or her lust have been dropped on purpose or were never in place to begin with."

*Disagree.* 
All people who take a vow of monogamous marriage, and completely defile it, are broken and dysfunctional by nature, regardless of the origin their transgression lurked-out from. I agree Lust of the eye/flesh 'flash in the pan' affairs are disgusting and perverse, and it takes a broken psyche, a majorly cracked foundation, to commit those acts...but those jokers are just as messed up as the ones who emotionally/physically get all tangled up in LTAs._


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Imajerk17 said:


> See I actually disagree with this. I DO agree that too many BSs are all too eager to rugsweep/reconcile, or are clearly dragging their feet on protecting themselves legally. And so they are given the 'hard' advice and being told that this is the only way to wake up the WS out of their fog. But, that definitely doesn't mean that BSs are pushed towards reconciliation and if anything they are pushed AWAY from reconciliation, period.


That's *exactly* what it means - when they recommend a BS do the 180 and go to a lawyer and all that, they usually *always* qualify that advice with a statement about how that should wake the cheater up and get him out of the magical 'fog' they think he's in and how they can always pull the divorce papers once their cheater is back on board, etc. etc.. They're telling the BS that THIS is a way to get their cheating prize back and shake them into reality - otherwise, they'd be telling the BS to file those papers, get the divorce, and never look back. And they never say that to a newly betrayed. It's always that bit about trying to 'scare' the WS back with divorce papers etc.



> I just checked the reconciliation section and saw at least one negative thread active now. Near the top of the first page..


Oooh - one whole negative thread amongst the current 3,457 "even though he lied to you again/cheated on you again/is hiding texts again, just tell him the rules and you'll get through it just fine, just like I did!" threads? Pffft.


----------



## Imajerk17

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's *exactly* what it means - when they recommend a BS do the 180 and go to a lawyer and all that, they usually *always* qualify that advice with a statement about how that should wake the cheater up and get him out of the magical 'fog' they think he's in and how they can always pull the divorce papers once their cheater is back on board, etc. etc.. They're telling the BS that THIS is a way to get their cheating prize back and shake them into reality - otherwise, they'd be telling the BS to file those papers, get the divorce, and never look back. And they never say that to a newly betrayed. It's always that bit about trying to 'scare' the WS back with divorce papers etc.


That is your interpretation.

I guarantee you though that if someone came on SI and said that they caught their spouse cheating and that they were already done they would be cheered on. See LtrCdr 's threads.





> Oooh - one whole negative thread amongst the current 3,457 "even though he lied to you again/cheated on you again/is hiding texts again, just tell him the rules and you'll get through it just fine, just like I did!" threads? Pffft.


Well, I did a count of the first page, and 18 out of 25 threads had negativity.[ As far as the other pages, I don't have time to go through the entire Reconciliation forum--I'm sorry]



Look, I think I get it. You seem to believe that once caught cheating that is it. And any advice besides 'file for divorce don't look back' is in your opinion, horrible advice. And I absolutely respect that, I am the same way--I don't think would tolerate an instance of cheating. [I don't have first-hand experience with this, I DID suspect later on that an ex-partner was cheating on me or at least monkey-branching on her way out, but by the time I got evidence this was well past the break-up and I was already over her.] And I would never cheat on someone myself.

Reading SI does get my blood boil in the sense that many of the guys being cheated on are so passive. [Where we differ is that I think the advice they are given is pretty good though.] Other forums are much much worse. Go check out the Loveshack Other Man/Woman forum. It is basically a bunch of WWs quote-supporting-unquote each other ['that big bad MM who hurt you is so evil! Just like my MM is such an awful jerk for hurting me. You go sista! We deserve better' ] while they keep on deceiving their husbands and families, for years. I got permabanned for swinging a 2X4


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Imajerk17 said:


> That is your interpretation.




I know WAY too many members over the years who have been banned from that site for refusing to play the delusion game and instead, trying to speak the truth. And I see the delusion still being spread over there in every single thread.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. :laugh:

While they've gotten a little better over the years, delusion still reigns - and always will.

So, we'll just agree to disagree. :smile2:


----------



## GoldenR

I honestly can't believethey haven't banned me yet.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

GoldenR said:


> I honestly can't believethey haven't banned me yet.


LOL...I love that you spoke your mind to the sheeple in that thread where they're wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth because of the mean BS's who are being so hard on the new BH's and telling them to dump their cheating wives or divorce them.

All it takes is for one of the dedicated sheep over there to get a wild hair up their ass and they'll go running to the admins insisting you be banned from the Delusion Pond, and off you'll go! Or, you might offend one of their hot-shot admins if you dare to make a derogatory remark about BS's who stay with their cheaters because it hits a little too close to home for all of them. I'm pretty sure they've all chosen to dine at the **** Sandwich Cafe for life. 

Truth hurts, I guess. :grin2:


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

She'sStillGotIt said:


> GoldenR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly can't believethey haven't banned me yet.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL...I love that you spoke your mind to the sheeple in that thread where they're wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth because of the mean BS's who are being so hard on the new BH's and telling them to dump their cheating wives or divorce them.
> 
> All it takes is for one of the dedicated sheep over there to get a wild hair up their ass and they'll go running to the admins insisting you be banned from the Delusion Pond, and off you'll go! Or, you might offend one of their hot-shot admins if you dare to make a derogatory remark about BS's who stay with their cheaters because it hits a little too close to home for all of them. I'm pretty sure they've all chosen to dine at the **** Sandwich Cafe for life.
> 
> Truth hurts, I guess.
Click to expand...

The irony of the site is that their #1 mission is to get you out of infidelity. But many are fairly dismissive of proactive advise, saying the BS is way too foggy to make such a decision like divorce and to give yourself 6-12 months or some other artificial timeline when you can think more clearly. Then they HB, end up pregs or get their WW pregs or something stupid during that time and then dday 2 hits shortly after...

Meanwhile, they recommend passive agressive action like the 180. This is just a bunch of highschool drama nonsense that is all about the BS pretending they don't like WS anymore, so that WS likes them more. Or a passive version of the pick me dance. Once they figure out their WS could give two farts about their drama and keeps on screwing Sandy in accounting, they are going to go back to active pick me. 

The other favorite is spreading the word to her family that your daughter/son is a cheater. Yeah...thats not passive...get someone else to handle your business while giving them freerange of your bedroom activities. 

Or the catch all of finding an IC to fix them since your WS must be broken...

I mean I'm cool with the idea of BS giving their WS a few months, AFTER you kick them out AND file for divorce. If you have kids together and during that time you think they are worth another shot and they are remorseful then it may be worth considering R. But if no kids or if their grownups then divorce WS and don't look back after dday.


----------



## Tell me more lies

I reviewed some of the threads in the R forum at SI.

There are some very negative comments from BH/BW about reconciliation of their relationships.

Seems a lot of them are not happy, and do not have much hope for the future.

On a side note, a previous poster (Clint) posted about his reconciliation 13 years out. He echoed the pitiful sentiment. 

Makes me wonder why some people put themselves into this situation.


----------



## michzz

I have not read this thread, nor have I gone over to another forum to see what the fuss is about.

I just have a comment.

I think this place is for discussing marriage problems, not so much for compare and contrast between forum providers.


----------



## personofinterest

> Meanwhile, they recommend passive agressive action like the 180. This is just a bunch of highschool drama nonsense that is all about the BS pretending they don't like WS anymore, so that WS likes them more.


This made me spit my coke I laughed so hard. I love it!


----------



## Walloped

As someone who is in the much despised R category and has been a SI member for a number of years, some of what is being said here is very true, while some of it is not. TAM is a very valuable site precisely because its members are blunt and don’t hold back. However, not every BS is in the right frame of mind to hear it so soon after DDay. There is a place for SI and it’s not just for wusses. I personally don’t believe there is an R agenda, but I do think that there is a little too much coddling going on. But like attracts like a d just like you find more in your face posts here, you’ll find less of it there. Neither one is worse than the other. The question is what are you looking for? 

For the most part, my experience has been that SI as a community believes that infidelity is a dealbreaker. Period. However, not every BS wants to D as a result of that infidelity. Many factors come into play, not the least of which is the WS and what they do post DDay. SI is generally more accepting of alternate paths, and funny enough, as I’ve said here before I’m more pro D than R despite my own personal sitch. 

I will also add that the admins are pretty accepting of what people say. However, 


She'sStillGotIt said:


> if you dare to make a derogatory remark about BS's who stay with their cheaters


they are not okay with members attacking or making fun of other members simply because one thinks they know what’s best or that someone is doing something they think is foolish or disagree with. There are ways to get that message across with saying anything derogatory. As admins, their job is to keep the place open and accepting and if members attack others, it ruins the site. For what it’s worth, I was banned from the Wayward section because I had too much anger and didn’t hold back. 

Anyway, I know I’m not everyone’s favorite person here and this will likely sound like a defense of SI, which it is I guess, but I thought I’d still ad my two cents. Cheers.


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> As someone who is in the much despised R category and has been a SI member for a number of years, some of what is being said here is very true, while some of it is not. TAM is a very valuable site precisely because its members are blunt and don’t hold back. However, not every BS is in the right frame of mind to hear it so soon after DDay. There is a place for SI and it’s not just for wusses. I personally don’t believe there is an R agenda, but I do think that there is a little too much coddling going on. But like attracts like a d just like you find more in your face posts here, you’ll find less of it there. Neither one is worse than the other. The question is what are you looking for?
> 
> For the most part, my experience has been that SI as a community believes that infidelity is a dealbreaker. Period. However, not every BS wants to D as a result of that infidelity. Many factors come into play, not the least of which is the WS and what they do post DDay. SI is generally more accepting of alternate paths, and funny enough, as I’ve said here before I’m more pro D than R despite my own personal sitch.
> 
> I will also add that the admins are pretty accepting of what people say. However,
> 
> they are not okay with members attacking or making fun of other members simply because one thinks they know what’s best or that someone is doing something they think is foolish or disagree with. There are ways to get that message across with saying anything derogatory. As admins, their job is to keep the place open and accepting and if members attack others, it ruins the site. For what it’s worth, I was banned from the Wayward section because I had too much anger and didn’t hold back.
> 
> Anyway, I know I’m not everyone’s favorite person here and this will likely sound like a defense of SI, which it is I guess, but I thought I’d still ad my two cents. Cheers.


Welcome back. 

I think it's a question of what you think is the moral thing to do. In that respect I see SI and what you are talking about as kind of like the parent who buys drugs for their kid so they don't end up on the street. It really doesn't help the situation in the long run and very often prolongs the agony. It also makes the parent an accomplice in the process. 

I think most of the criticism is leveled at the posts where the folks are years out but still miserable and still on the R board. Like the thread I pointed out the other day "I No Longer...". Do those people seem happy and like they are making the right choice? Let me tell you marriage can be SO MUCH better then that! Hell being alone can be SO MUCH better then that. 

The problem most of us have with SI is it doesn't empower people who are stuck because you can say stuff like - "the reason you feel this way is that you are married to someone who is an *******." When after years they post a question like (is it going to get better) you can't say, "NO not if you stay married in in the situation you are in." Or "you are still unhappy because to stay with this person who treated you so poorly goes against your core beliefs about honor and yourself." 

To expand on that last point, I personally think love is not worth one's self respect. It's very obviously to me that THAT is really the big problem for a lot of people floundering in R. I think lots of folks feel degraded staying with someone who was so callous and abusive to them. Even if they can't articulate that and maybe no one has pointed this out to them but deep down they still know it. I think this is why years later they are not happy, even when they are over the affair part. Even when they have forgiven and are no longer afraid it will happen again. First they are betrayed by their spouse, and then they are forced to betray themselves to stay. Now not everyone agrees with me. I have had lots of people tell me I am full of crap. I have also had lots of people fight me and only later thank me. The point is at least I can have that opinion here. I would never get banned for that. 

I mean let me ask you why does it just generally seem the folks who move on are more happy? The threads asking about divorce always have lots of happy people saying it's the best thing they ever did. When I and I think a lot of posters on here respond to people suffering my goal isn't to comfort them per say, it' to help them get out of there horrible situation. That really is the difference as I see it. Lots of posters on SI post to comfort and commiserate with those who are miserable, unfortunately I suspect because they are miserable and stuck themselves. There are a lot of people on here who moved on and are much happier because of it. You can't even post in the R section of SI if you moved on. This is why that site is quite obviously bios for R. The way the police it shows that. 

To me most of the time reconciliation seems like people working SO HARD for SO little. 

Anyway the best thing you can say about this site is that YOU can come on here and state your peace and you don't even get banned, imagine one of us saying something like this over there? Instant banning. That very fact alone makes this place miles above the other. The only thing SI has over this place is you can type out curse words. (Oh and it doesn't act like a virus on your phone!)

How are you doing by the way?


----------



## Walloped

I’m doing well actually. Thanks for asking (seriously).

I hear you. Self respect is a huge issue when you R. A big question/issue/mountain I had to deal with is what does it say about me if I stay, or how do I reconcile myself with staying? However, I would venture that for many people it’s not necessarily just about love. If it’s a 1-1 equation of self respect vs love then I agree. Self respect trumps the other because you need that to be a happy, emotionally healthy individual. But for many people there are many more factors at play. Those factors, plus love, add up to a different answer for some. And then comes a new type of self respect. That it’s not just about you alone. And that means something. So yeah, working so hard, but not for so little.

It’s why I don’t believe there’s a one size fits all answer to this. My default is to D. Then there needs to be other factors that can change the equation and move the needle towards working at R. Doesn’t mean R will be successful or right (many issues impact it). But that it becomes a viable path.

Regarding getting banned, I’m not an admin, mod or whatever at SI, but I don’t know that those quotes will get you banned. I do think the point can be made more effectively though. Telling someone they’re miserable because they’re still married is fine as far as that goes. But you’re talking to a person who wants to stay, even if it’s to their own detriment. So that’s not going to help them because they’re not open to that message. So how do you get them to where you want them to go? By pointing out the issues they’re dealing with; the way their WS is acting or things he/she are doing wrong, or how the BS is being too passive, etc. It’s a lot more work, but it highlights the issues of why staying doesn’t work for that person which is why they are miserable. That gives them food for thought about changing their situation where D becomes a new option for them.

With all that said, there are many people who linger in limbo because they are CoD, or lack self-esteem. It’s very sad to see.

So to me, TAM allows you to be much more in your face whereas SI is more coddling by nature (you might call it enabling). I don’t quite ascribe to your “parents buying kids drugs” analogy, but I get where that comes from. Some people need one over the other, for better or for worse.


----------



## Loveshorror

Tonight highlights my issue with SI. A MH who had a one night stand found out her husband had a 6-yr affair through both her pregnancies. Who’s counseling her? Two cheaters who had recent D-days. At least one who admits she still mourns her AP and has encouraged WHs to PM her for further “advice.” How helpful.


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> I’m doing well actually. Thanks for asking (seriously).
> 
> I hear you. Self respect is a huge issue when you R. A big question/issue/mountain I had to deal with is what does it say about me if I stay, or how do I reconcile myself with staying? However, I would venture that for many people it’s not necessarily just about love. If it’s a 1-1 equation of self respect vs love then I agree. Self respect trumps the other because you need that to be a happy, emotionally healthy individual. But for many people there are many more factors at play. Those factors, plus love, add up to a different answer for some. And then comes a new type of self respect. That it’s not just about you alone. And that means something. So yeah, working so hard, but not for so little.
> 
> It’s why I don’t believe there’s a one size fits all answer to this. My default is to D. Then there needs to be other factors that can change the equation and move the needle towards working at R. Doesn’t mean R will be successful or right (many issues impact it). But that it becomes a viable path.
> 
> Regarding getting banned, I’m not an admin, mod or whatever at SI, but I don’t know that those quotes will get you banned. I do think the point can be made more effectively though. Telling someone they’re miserable because they’re still married is fine as far as that goes. But you’re talking to a person who wants to stay, even if it’s to their own detriment. So that’s not going to help them because they’re not open to that message. So how do you get them to where you want them to go? By pointing out the issues they’re dealing with; the way their WS is acting or things he/she are doing wrong, or how the BS is being too passive, etc. It’s a lot more work, but it highlights the issues of why staying doesn’t work for that person which is why they are miserable. That gives them food for thought about changing their situation where D becomes a new option for them.
> 
> With all that said, there are many people who linger in limbo because they are CoD, or lack self-esteem. It’s very sad to see.
> 
> So to me, TAM allows you to be much more in your face whereas SI is more coddling by nature (you might call it enabling). I don’t quite ascribe to your “parents buying kids drugs” analogy, but I get where that comes from. Some people need one over the other, for better or for worse.


See now we we had that conversation and no one got banned. That is how this should work. I personally don't think we could have this type of back and forth on SI. Sister Milkshake for instance would be attacking me for what I wrote. > 

Anyway what do you think of Brodie, I am not getting my hopes up this year. Your a Giants fan right? Beckham trade? 

I am glad you are doing well.


----------



## sokillme

I found CantBeMe123 post about his dating history with his wife to be particularly poignant. She was terribly cruel to him for most of their relationship. I personally don't believe people just turn that off, Poly or not. I wouldn't be shocked if there was more. I hope he moves on to someone who hasn't spent most of their relationship abusing him. That's the kind of poster who would do good on here. We would help him. 

Some of the poster on there with their replies are really jerks. (To say it nicely)


----------



## Decorum

I'm gonna jump in admitting that I have not read all the intertwining chapters here, so forgive me if this is repetitive. 

It wasn't that long ago that the majority of posters in the CWI section understood and would inculcate that the 180 was not to get your cheating partner back, it was a way to gather yourself mentally and emotionally so that you could make good decisions from a position of strength. 

It often did have the result of shocking the cheater, and causing them to pursue the betrayed partner. This is consistent with push/pull theory.

Especially when said cheater was a classic cake eater who never intended on ending the relationship. (In all fairness this was, in a few instances, the beginning of remorsefulness for some.)

But "back then" it was oft repeated that the 180 was for the betrayed not the betrayer. 

There are some great posters in the CWI section currently, but people come and go.

I have been here long enough to remember the "You go girl purge" when certain (mostly) female members conspired to engage, provoke, entrap, and with the witting or unwitting cooperation of some Mod's have banned male members deemed to be the source of the "evil" misogynistic viewpoint on TAM.

The cynical Misandginistic Inquisition Movement prevailed through manipulation by using the rules against other members, then largely dispersed after all the "good" they could do had been accomplished. 

It changed the culture here, and dimished the benefits of the natural continuity that took place.

Even the site code got screwed up. It is clear to me that the loveshack site was coded the same way as TAM.

It still functions without all the glitches TAM has.

This may prove to be my epitaph here, lol.


----------



## Walloped

sokillme said:


> Anyway what do you think of Brodie, I am not getting my hopes up this year. Your a Giants fan right? Beckham trade?


T/j

Well, I’ve learned the hard way to never get my hopes up. Hope for the worst and expect the worst, be moderately surprised when they surpass extremely low expectations. Life of a Mets fan. I don’t care about Brodie being deGrom’s agent, as long as he puts together a competitive team. I do like his aggressive style. I haven’t seen this much activity and aggressiveness since the Mets went out and got Pedro. Whether it all,works is another story.

I’m cool with the OBJ trade. Everyone is getting their panties in a twist on Twitter and in the news, but he was another Antonio Brown / LeVeon Bell situation waiting to happen. The Steelers only got a 3rd and a 5th for Brown and nothing for Bell. The Jints got a 1st, a 3rd, and safety Jabril Peppers who was a 1st round pick 2 years ago and was completely misused in Cleveland, which also fills a huge need for the Giants. Now, if the Giants are able to trade the 3rd round pick to Arizona for Josh Rosen, who the world thought the Giants should take last year at #2, then what you have is basically Rosen, Peppers, and a #1 pick for OBJ. That’s pretty damn good. And if Rosen sucks, then all you gave up for him was a 3rd round pick and you can draft a QB next year (better class). Plus, it allows the Giants to pick a defensive player at #6 and a RT at #17. Finally, letting OBJ, and Landon Collins go, plus Eli likely retiring at the end of the 2019 season means a boatload of freed up FA $ for 2020. 

Summary: 2019 is to shore up your OL, get your young QB tutored under Eli for a year, add a few quality defensive players, and then go bonkers in FA next year for skill positions.

I could be wrong, but that’s how this all makes sense to me.


----------



## Absurdist

Walloped said:


> T/j
> 
> Well, I’ve learned the hard way to never get my hopes up. Hope for the worst and expect the worst, be moderately surprised when they surpass extremely low expectations. Life of a Mets fan. I don’t care about Brodie being deGrom’s agent, as long as he puts together a competitive team. I do like his aggressive style. I haven’t seen this much activity and aggressiveness since the Mets went out and got Pedro. Whether it all,works is another story.
> 
> I’m cool with the OBJ trade. Everyone is getting their panties in a twist on Twitter and in the news, but he was another Antonio Brown / LeVeon Bell situation waiting to happen. The Steelers only got a 3rd and a 5th for Brown and nothing for Bell. The Jints got a 1st, a 3rd, and safety Jabril Peppers who was a 1st round pick 2 years ago and was completely misused in Cleveland, which also fills a huge need for the Giants. Now, if the Giants are able to trade the 3rd round pick to Arizona for Josh Rosen, who the world thought the Giants should take last year at #2, then what you have is basically Rosen, Peppers, and a #1 pick for OBJ. That’s pretty damn good. And if Rosen sucks, then all you gave up for him was a 3rd round pick and you can draft a QB next year (better class). Plus, it allows the Giants to pick a defensive player at #6 and a RT at #17. Finally, letting OBJ, and Landon Collins go, plus Eli likely retiring at the end of the 2019 season means a boatload of freed up FA $ for 2020.
> 
> Summary: 2019 is to shore up your OL, get your young QB tutored under Eli for a year, add a few quality defensive players, and then go bonkers in FA next year for skill positions.
> 
> I could be wrong, but that’s how this all makes sense to me.


Now I understand all your problems ..... you’re a Giants fan 

You’re also a strange brew. All the New Yawkers I know are either Giants/Yankees or Jets/Mets. I’ve never met a Jets/Yankees fan or a Giants/Mets fan before. So you’re the first.

Now about those Knicks... oy vey.

And to t/j this sports thread, I have no problems with SI even though I was banned there. I should have been banned. Lost my head in thread by dostl10 which I now greatly regret.


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> T/j
> 
> Well, I’ve learned the hard way to never get my hopes up. Hope for the worst and expect the worst, be moderately surprised when they surpass extremely low expectations. Life of a Mets fan. I don’t care about Brodie being deGrom’s agent, as long as he puts together a competitive team. I do like his aggressive style. I haven’t seen this much activity and aggressiveness since the Mets went out and got Pedro. Whether it all,works is another story.
> 
> I’m cool with the OBJ trade. Everyone is getting their panties in a twist on Twitter and in the news, but he was another Antonio Brown / LeVeon Bell situation waiting to happen. The Steelers only got a 3rd and a 5th for Brown and nothing for Bell. The Jints got a 1st, a 3rd, and safety Jabril Peppers who was a 1st round pick 2 years ago and was completely misused in Cleveland, which also fills a huge need for the Giants. Now, if the Giants are able to trade the 3rd round pick to Arizona for Josh Rosen, who the world thought the Giants should take last year at #2, then what you have is basically Rosen, Peppers, and a #1 pick for OBJ. That’s pretty damn good. And if Rosen sucks, then all you gave up for him was a 3rd round pick and you can draft a QB next year (better class). Plus, it allows the Giants to pick a defensive player at #6 and a RT at #17. Finally, letting OBJ, and Landon Collins go, plus Eli likely retiring at the end of the 2019 season means a boatload of freed up FA $ for 2020.
> 
> Summary: 2019 is to shore up your OL, get your young QB tutored under Eli for a year, add a few quality defensive players, and then go bonkers in FA next year for skill positions.
> 
> I could be wrong, but that’s how this all makes sense to me.


Why does it always seems with the Mets, they need to make one or two moves to put them over the top and they don't do it. They always do just enough to get our hopes up. Probably because they care more about selling tickets then winning.

Sad about Seaver. How about them finally getting around to building the statue now, but pretending it was the plan all along. Typical. Our owners are such liars. 

I get the Barkley trade, at least they got something for him instead of letting him pull a Brown move. Rosen if you can get him for a 3 would be a good move. Then you see. He didn't look real good last year. I don't buy the (he is not a good guy stuff). I think he his would get more of a fair shot in NYC partly because being traded for a 3 is a lot less pressure then being a first round drafted QB aside from other things.

As a Jet fan I think it would be cool to have him and Darnold in the same city again. College LA, Pros NYC. Plus Josh Allen in Buffalo. I am happy with the Jets' off season but I wish Barr wouldn't have changed his mind. I didn't want Bell but that is when I thought he was going to get 80 to 100 million, at the 45 or so they paid him that is a good deal.


----------



## Walloped

Absurdist said:


> Now I understand all your problems ..... you’re a Giants fan
> 
> You’re also a strange brew. All the New Yawkers I know are either Giants/Yankees or Jets/Mets. I’ve never met a Jets/Yankees fan or a Giants/Mets fan before. So you’re the first.
> 
> Now about those Knicks... oy vey.
> 
> And to t/j this sports thread, I have no problems with SI even though I was banned there. I should have been banned. Lost my head in thread by dostl10 which I now greatly regret.


Yeah, my dad was a baseball NY Giants fan so we had no loyalty to the Yankees. I went to both Mets and Yankees games as a kid, but I was also contrarian. Everyone was a Yankees fan in the 70’s (Reggie, Goose, Nettles, Gamble, Munson, etc.). The Mets were the Bad News Bears. It was more fun. I was also an Islanders fan and became a Giants fan in the early 80’s. I liked the smash mouth kind of football. 

I remember dostl10, we PM’ed a bit. 



sokillme said:


> I get the Barkley trade, at least they got something for him instead of letting him pull a Brown move. Rosen if you can get him for a 3 would be a good move. Then you see. He didn't look real good last year. I don't buy the (he is not a good guy stuff). I think he his would get more of a fair shot in NYC partly because being traded for a 3 is a lot less pressure then being a first round drafted QB aside from other things.


Yep. A 3rd round pick is a small investment to test the waters on a top 10 pick who was thrown to the wolves behind the league’s worst offensive line last year. He was sacked 45 times, had no weapon other than David Johnson, and his coaching staff was horrible. Yet he still put up similar numbers to Darnold and Allen. I’m not saying he’s great, the jury’s still out. But he’s probably an above average pocket passer who needs mentoring and time. Even Aaron Rodgers sat behind Favre. 

Point is, if the Giants make that trade, the whole OBJ move starts to make sense to me.

Sorry for the sports t/j.


----------



## Walloped

To get back on topic, I’m going to defend SI on two other fronts (I know, I’m just a shill). 

A lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes. Many conversations happen in PM. I’ve had tons of them. One of the roles the mods have is to keep the peace and make sure people feel SI is a place where they can come and be welcome, and then get advice. Like anywhere, some of it will be good advice and some of it will be bad. But if people are attacked by others, they’ll say “screw this” and leave. That helps no one. So the mods monitor that. Now honestly, many times a BS or a WS needs a verbal slap. But why should they listen to someone who posted once in their thread and all they said is that their being walked over by their WS and they should just D the b**** and move on? As if they didn’t know D was an option. But if you offer advice, be helpful, and yes, a little soft or treat them with kid gloves, then you’ll have developed some kind of relationship. And then, privately, you can give them the straight advice they need. I have done this so many times. Because I remember what I was like right after DDay and it was not fun. I was in shock and bewildered. And I was in no way accepting of harsh words. I put posters in buckets. Helpful, practical, welcoming, and a**holes. I discounted anything the latter group had to say without even reading their posts - just by their username. 

Anyway, point is, there’s a whole community there and lots go on in PM’s.

Speaking of which, the other thing the mods do. They weed out trolls and help out members from those who are there just to harass or stir up trouble to get their kicks. Look, I’m a well-known member there. People talk about me and my wife. They talk about us here too. Whatever. I cannot tell you how many PM’s I’ve gotten from trolls over the years. Same with my wife. People come on SI with an obsession about us, and then, when they get to the required number of posts before they can PM, bam, I or my wife get one. Usually screaming/ranting, or graphic in nature, or suggestions that I screw around, D her, I’ll never be happy, etc. Sometimes it’ll be in the guise of friendly advice offered when that poster know s***-all about us. My point is not to vent about that. What I’m saying is that the mods have been phenomenal in shutting that down. If my wife or I are harassed, they intervene. They weed them out and ban them. We notify them when it occurs and the mods take action. And I’m forever grateful that they do such a great job at that. 

Are the mods perfect? No. Are they too harsh sometimes? Probably. Do they make mistakes? Of course. We all do. But overall, they do a pretty good job for folks who volunteer their time to do this.

Just wanted to throw that out there.


----------



## threelittlestars

Walloped said:


> To get back on topic, I’m going to defend SI on two other fronts (I know, I’m just a shill).
> 
> A lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes. Many conversations happen in PM. I’ve had tons of them. One of the roles the mods have is to keep the peace and make sure people feel SI is a place where they can come and be welcome, and then get advice. Like anywhere, some of it will be good advice and some of it will be bad. But if people are attacked by others, they’ll say “screw this” and leave. That helps no one. So the mods monitor that. Now honestly, many times a BS or a WS needs a verbal slap. But why should they listen to someone who posted once in their thread and all they said is that their being walked over by their WS and they should just D the b**** and move on? As if they didn’t know D was an option. But if you offer advice, be helpful, and yes, a little soft or treat them with kid gloves, then you’ll have developed some kind of relationship. And then, privately, you can give them the straight advice they need. I have done this so many times. Because I remember what I was like right after DDay and it was not fun. I was in shock and bewildered. And I was in no way accepting of harsh words. I put posters in buckets. Helpful, practical, welcoming, and a**holes. I discounted anything the latter group had to say without even reading their posts - just by their username.
> 
> Anyway, point is, there’s a whole community there and lots go on in PM’s.
> 
> Speaking of which, the other thing the mods do. They weed out trolls and help out members from those who are there just to harass or stir up trouble to get their kicks. Look, I’m a well-known member there. People talk about me and my wife. They talk about us here too. Whatever. I cannot tell you how many PM’s I’ve gotten from trolls over the years. Same with my wife. People come on SI with an obsession about us, and then, when they get to the required number of posts before they can PM, bam, I or my wife get one. Usually screaming/ranting, or graphic in nature, or suggestions that I screw around, D her, I’ll never be happy, etc. Sometimes it’ll be in the guise of friendly advice offered when that poster know s***-all about us. My point is not to vent about that. What I’m saying is that the mods have been phenomenal in shutting that down. If my wife or I are harassed, they intervene. They weed them out and ban them. We notify them when it occurs and the mods take action. And I’m forever grateful that they do such a great job at that.
> 
> Are the mods perfect? No. Are they too harsh sometimes? Probably. Do they make mistakes? Of course. We all do. But overall, they do a pretty good job for folks who volunteer their time to do this.
> 
> Just wanted to throw that out there.


Just to add, I was banned over a petty issue and dispute with a pet of a mod. It was stupid and they demanded I apologize. I felt very much like it was okay to say that don't fly AND dont do it again..., but to demand me apologize. I felt that me at the time being 28 years old being told to apologize was too far in their control. I was then banned for NOT apologizing. 

They abandoned me when things were really hot in my marriage. I was on my last thread at the time adn they cut me off from support. Yes there were other forums, and it took me a while to find a place... But to be rejected and reprimanded like they did, i still CANNOT forgive them. 

I hate SI. The mods may take their job seriously, but they are tyrants.


----------



## Walloped

threelittlestars said:


> Just to add, I was banned over a petty issue and dispute with a pet of a mod. It was stupid and they demanded I apologize. I felt very much like it was okay to say that don't fly AND dont do it again..., but to demand me apologize. I felt that me at the time being 28 years old being told to apologize was too far in their control. I was then banned for NOT apologizing.
> 
> They abandoned me when things were really hot in my marriage. I was on my last thread at the time adn they cut me off from support. Yes there were other forums, and it took me a while to find a place... But to be rejected and reprimanded like they did, i still CANNOT forgive them.
> 
> I hate SI. The mods may take their job seriously, but they are tyrants.


I think that’s horrible and extremely petty. I’m sorry you went through that. 

I don’t blame you in the slightest for being angry with them. 

All I can say is that our opinions are formed by our experiences. Mine have been positive. Yours was not. Doesn’t make either of us wrong, just that we have different views. But just like I can say that what they did to you was wrong, I hope you’ll agree that they also do some things right. Like all people, they are not perfect, for better or for worse.


----------



## threelittlestars

Walloped said:


> I think that’s horrible and extremely petty. I’m sorry you went through that.
> 
> I don’t blame you in the slightest for being angry with them.
> 
> All I can say is that our opinions are formed by our experiences. Mine have been positive. Yours was not. Doesn’t make either of us wrong, just that we have different views. But just like I can say that what they did to you was wrong, I hope you’ll agree that they also do some things right. Like all people, they are not perfect, for better or for worse.


True. But they pick favorites, golden members who can get away with anything. I am all for moderation, but there should not be the favored few that get away with anything. I see that a LOT there. I read over there still from time to time and I witness so many violations of their rules but they let it slid, unless you personally piss them off. Then they will cut you off with no empathy AND ZERO compassion. It was worse though I think when the woman was alive... I forget her screen name, but she died of cancer. i found after she passed things mellowed a bunch. 

Trying not to speak ill of the dead, but from my perspective she was hard core.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

When I was there there did seem to be a few pets. They even had there little pecking crew. It was kind of sad. Their post count was several hundred thousand. I thought to myself...how many wasted hours and years have been spent on an infidelity forum and yet you still are *****ing at the OW (who is now likely tucked away in some retirement home) like she is still a vivacious 30 yr old homewrecker?

So, yea. I'm relieved I got banned. Those people were nauseating.


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## GoldenR

Walloped!! I didn't even know you were registered here!

Good to see you!


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## sokillme

Jeeze - Can someone get CantBeMe123 here, SI is not helping him! 

If I read one more poster saying his wife who lied to him for 12 years, has been a good wife, my head is going to explode. Another thing that you will only read on SI. Anyone who has had a spouse that hasn't had them lie to them for 12 years knows what BS that is. She was a terrible wife! He never would have married her if he knew the truth. She tricked him into marring her for God's sake!


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## sokillme

@GoldenR you are about to get banned at SI with the SAHD thread by the way.

I suggest you expand your argument to both sexes and add the fact that it leaves you financially vulnerable. People can stomach that argument better, not that your wrong though.

Continuing with the vulnerability argument it leaves the BS vulnerable if your WS is SAH because you are forced to continue to financially support the cheating spouse because they haven't established financial independence. In that sense it also sets up a parent child dynamic with your spouse that very often leads to entitlement. 

SAH except when kids are very young for a short period of time is an idea from a different century. I would never recommend it. 

By the way it's not an excuse for cheating though.


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## farsidejunky

@GoldenR is not the only one at risk of being banned...

My seat is likely pretty hot over there as well.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Nrecnocymton

farsidejunky said:


> @GoldenR is not the only one at risk of being banned...
> 
> My seat is likely pretty hot over there as well.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Maybe if someone stopped being so sassy. (you're not)


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## farsidejunky

Nrecnocymton said:


> Maybe if someone stopped being so sassy. (you're not)


Thanks for the second confirmation.

;-)

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## GoldenR

sokillme said:


> @GoldenR you are about to get banned at SI with the SAHD thread by the way.
> 
> I suggest you expand your argument to both sexes and add the fact that it leaves you financially vulnerable. People can stomach that argument better, not that your wrong though.
> 
> Continuing with the vulnerability argument it leaves the BS vulnerable if your WS is SAH because you are forced to continue to financially support the cheating spouse because they haven't established financial independence. In that sense it also sets up a parent child dynamic with your spouse that very often leads to entitlement.
> 
> SAH except when kids are very young for a short period of time is an idea from a different century. I would never recommend it.
> 
> By the way it's not an excuse for cheating though.


Weird, I just posted something there close to what you suggest, and then i come here and see that you suggested it.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

"Loss of respect has zero to do with infidelity" per [email protected] on SI.


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## Loveshorror

sokillme said:


> Jeeze - Can someone get CantBeMe123 here, SI is not helping him!
> 
> If I read one more poster saying his wife who lied to him for 12 years, has been a good wife, my head is going to explode. Another thing that you will only read on SI. Anyone who has had a spouse that hasn't had them lie to them for 12 years knows what BS that is. She was a terrible wife! He never would have married her if he knew the truth. She tricked him into marring her for God's sake!


I have read SI for years (this site too), but refuse to join there as I know I would get banned immediately. That thread is a mess. It is raising my blood pressure to see WWs chastising CantBeMe123. Especially hikingout. She has never met a post she doesn't feel the need to offer her .02 on. I don't think she realizes how lucky she's been as a WW.

As to getting banned, I hope Marauder doesn't as he is calling Flawed out.

In general, I think SI is good for those staring out who are fragile, but this place is more practical and blunt, which I think is a good thing.


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## HappenedToMe123

Hi. I'm CantBeMe from SI. It's weird to find yourself being talked about on the internet "behind your back". Anyway, here I am, so lay it on me. Would love to hear the advice from this end of things. My wife to my knowledge has no idea this site exists, but of course that doesn't mean much. I'm going to assume anything I say here is private until I learn differently, not that I hold much of anything back at SI. 

Fire away.


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## farsidejunky

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Hi. I'm CantBeMe from SI. It's weird to find yourself being talked about on the internet "behind your back". Anyway, here I am, so lay it on me. Would love to hear the advice from this end of things. My wife to my knowledge has no idea this site exists, but of course that doesn't mean much. I'm going to assume anything I say here is private until I learn differently, not that I hold much of anything back at SI.
> 
> 
> 
> Fire away.


Hi there, CBM.

All things considered, I'm probably the last person you want to hear from right now.

Welcome to TAM.

ETA: Everything discussed in this particular sub forum is accessible and searchable by anyone, to include non-members. Conversely, the private sub forum is only accessible to members with a certain amount of posts or who are paid contributors to the site.

I'm not entirely certain what you meant by the term privacy, but I wanted you to understand before you post any more here exactly what you were looking at.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## HappenedToMe123

It's funny, this board seems MUCH more pro-D and anti-WS, and yet you strike me as a WS apologist. Are you not that way, or you just targeted me for some reason?


----------



## sokillme

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Hi. I'm CantBeMe from SI. It's weird to find yourself being talked about on the internet "behind your back". Anyway, here I am, so lay it on me. Would love to hear the advice from this end of things. My wife to my knowledge has no idea this site exists, but of course that doesn't mean much. I'm going to assume anything I say here is private until I learn differently, not that I hold much of anything back at SI.
> 
> Fire away.


That would be me talking about you and it was not behind your back I just had no avenue to talk to you directly. But I apologize if it came across that way. And it was done only to commiserate with you because it pisses me off how you were being treated over there in the mist of what from experience I know is probably the worst time in your life. First of all we are kind of like the island of misfit toys of SI on here. Most of us being kicked out of there in one way or another which is a whole other post. This would explain why some of us still read on there. Some of the stuff you read is just hard to take. 

Look I read you long post about you dating relationship with your wife and I felt very bad for you. You have been dealt a bad hand. I think what has been missing from the discussion is that you wife did to you is worse then selfish, she has been very cruel to you, and for a long time. Yes cruel, the cheating, the lying, but to go on a date while you were engaged really put the whole thing in perspective, there seemed to never be a thought to how much that disrespected you and your relationship. I think that one incident really shows great insight into her character. Which to me shows how she was able to purposely withhold information from you that, in the end, probably allowed you to make the choice to marry her. The worst cruelty of all, lying to you for 12 years. 

YOU ARE NOT WRONG! And NO your wife has NOT been a good wife. It's like saying a surgeon is a good one when they only amputated the wrong limb once. Yeah sure! Let me tell you when you have an honest wife who is your partner you will see how different it is. No matter what anyone else tell you on that other board. 

Hopefully you will stay on here and dialog with us. I think you will get a much different take here then you do their. Most of the posters on this board have move on from bad relationships. Not saying that is what you should do but there is no R bias on this board.

If it's really you. :corkysm60:


----------



## Loveshorror

sokillme said:


> Jeeze - Can someone get CantBeMe123 here, SI is not helping him!
> 
> If I read one more poster saying his wife who lied to him for 12 years, has been a good wife, my head is going to explode. Another thing that you will only read on SI. Anyone who has had a spouse that hasn't had them lie to them for 12 years knows what BS that is. She was a terrible wife! He never would have married her if he knew the truth. She tricked him into marring her for God's sake!


I think my prior post accidentally got deleted. If this is a double, I apologize. I have read SI and TAM for years, but prefer this site as it is more blunt, although I think SI has merits to help initially fragile posters. With that said, I am glad to see HTM here - that thread was getting ugly with WWs chastising him. Especially hikingout, who clearly does not realize how lucky her experience has been as a WW. That's probably the reason she has yet to meet a post where she hasn't commented.

In any event, HTM, I think this place will help you. From what I read, even people who have R'd are pretty realistic.


----------



## farsidejunky

HappenedToMe123 said:


> It's funny, this board seems MUCH more pro-D and anti-WS, and yet you strike me as a WS apologist. Are you not that way, or you just targeted me for some reason?


It's funny you should put it that way.

I am far from a wayward apologist. In fact, I am only in favor of reconciliation in rare cases. I am mostly "scorched Earth".

I have read your wife's thread. She has a long way to go.

As for you: everything I have said to you in your thread at SI has been about you. I want YOU to heal. But you can't do it when you are stuck in the drama triangle.

I am the type of guy that's believes men should be better. Most of my posts are to help men grow. To that end, I believe I have helped a good many people.

I was hoping to do the same for you. But my approach clearly didn't sit well with you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

GoldenR said:


> Weird, I just posted something there close to what you suggest, and then i come here and see that you suggested it.


Great minds?


----------



## HappenedToMe123

sokillme said:


> That would be me talking about you and it was not behind your back I just had no avenue to talk to you directly. But I apologize if it came across that way. And it was done only to commiserate with you because it pisses me off how you were being treated over there in the mist of what from experience I know is probably the worst time in your life. First of all we are kind of like the island of misfit toys of SI on here. Most of us being kicked out of there in one way or another which is a whole other post. This would explain why some of us still read on there. Some of the stuff you read is just hard to take.
> 
> Look I read you long post about you dating relationship with your wife and I felt very bad for you. You have been dealt a bad hand. I think what has been missing from the discussion is that you wife did to you is worse then selfish, she has been very cruel to you, and for a long time. Yes cruel, the cheating, the lying, but to go on a date while you were engaged really put the whole thing in perspective, there seemed to never be a thought to how much that disrespected you and your relationship. I think that one incident really shows great insight into her character. Which to me shows how she was able to purposely withhold information from you that, in the end, probably allowed you to make the choice to marry her. The worst cruelty of all, lying to you for 12 years.
> 
> YOU ARE NOT WRONG! And NO your wife has NOT been a good wife. It's like saying a surgeon is a good one when they only amputated the wrong limb once. Yeah sure! Let me tell you when you have an honest wife who is your partner you will see how different it is. No matter what anyone else tell you on that other board.
> 
> Hopefully you will stay on here and dialog with us. I think you will get a much different take here then you do their. Most of the posters on this board have move on from bad relationships. Not saying that is what you should do but there is no R bias on this board.
> 
> If it's really you. :corkysm60:


Thanks. It's really me, I promise. You can tell by how much I don't like farside, hah. 

I feel stuck in a really difficult place. I HATE how my wife acted, and I'm someone who actually is pretty understanding of WS and cheating. I want to go back in time and leave her. But that's impossible, and the "her" of today really is a good person. She was awful back then, no doubt, but I don't believe her lying to me in the past 12 years (or at least the past 5) was some kind of calculated move, she just tucked it away and moved on. The last time I brought up her "kiss", which was the first time since our kids were born 4ish years ago, is what caused the confession. I don't think she had thought about it at all in many of those in-between years. 

I want to resurrect her 23 y/o self, curse her out, kick her to the curb, laugh at her while she cries and flies back home to her parents, then go back and be happy with my wife of today. It's a ridiculous feeling but that's where I'm at.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

Also I realize this is a huge T/J, but I'm trying to be a little discreet in case my wife does check this site at all. I hope that's OK. And farside, I don't actually hate you, you just really rubbed me the wrong way this morning.


----------



## Blondilocks

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Hi. I'm CantBeMe from SI. It's weird to find yourself being talked about on the internet "behind your back". Anyway, here I am, so lay it on me. Would love to hear the advice from this end of things. My wife to my knowledge has no idea this site exists, but of course that doesn't mean much*. I'm going to assume anything I say here is private until I learn differently, not that I hold much of anything back at SI.
> *
> Fire away.


This is an open public forum. It would be foolish to assume anything is private. And, it is forever - it is the internet, after-all. 

What is weird is when people get their hackles up because what they posted in a public forum is (gasp) being talked about. If you want privacy and confidentiality, pay a licensed therapist.


----------



## Loveshorror

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Thanks. It's really me, I promise. You can tell by how much I don't like farside, hah.
> 
> I feel stuck in a really difficult place. I HATE how my wife acted, and I'm someone who actually is pretty understanding of WS and cheating. I want to go back in time and leave her. But that's impossible, and the "her" of today really is a good person. She was awful back then, no doubt, but I don't believe her lying to me in the past 12 years (or at least the past 5) was some kind of calculated move, she just tucked it away and moved on. The last time I brought up her "kiss", which was the first time since our kids were born 4ish years ago, is what caused the confession. I don't think she had thought about it at all in many of those in-between years.
> 
> I want to resurrect her 23 y/o self, curse her out, kick her to the curb, laugh at her while she cries and flies back home to her parents, then go back and be happy with my wife of today. It's a ridiculous feeling but that's where I'm at.


With all due respect, the "her" of today still has issues given the crush on your BFF and the texts with the babysitter to seem cool. These are not the actions of a good person. The holding back in her thread to manipulate the outcome is not the action of a good person. I think it's a shame Marauder is about to get in trouble on her thread as HO has notified a mod, causing he saying some needed truths.

In any event, I think you are struggling with the fact you feel you _should_ be okay with this because your wife is viewed as a good person vs. you have had enough. I think it may help if on SI if you go back and read waitedwaytoolong's threads, as his mindset seems similar to yours.

I may be off the mark, but that is my .02. I don't post on SI as I would be banned rather quickly.


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## sokillme

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Thanks. It's really me, I promise. You can tell by how much I don't like farside, hah.
> 
> I feel stuck in a really difficult place. I HATE how my wife acted, and I'm someone who actually is pretty understanding of WS and cheating. I want to go back in time and leave her. But that's impossible, and the "her" of today really is a good person. She was awful back then, no doubt, but I don't believe her lying to me in the past 12 years (or at least the past 5) was some kind of calculated move, she just tucked it away and moved on. The last time I brought her "kiss", which was the first time since our kids were born, is what caused the confession.
> 
> I want to resurrect her 23 y/o self, curse her out, kick her to the curb, laugh at her while she cries and flies back home to her parents, then go back and be happy with my wife of today. It's a ridiculous feeling but that's where I'm at.


I am going to proceed like it's you, but who knows. You could be firside for all I know. >

Well first of all you know you can't go back so it's best to put that aside right?

Why do you just discount her lying to you. Let's take away good or bad and just talk about authentic. How can anyone be considered a good wife when she has not been authentic with you. That is a very big part of what you need in a good relationship. Has she ever really been authentic with you in your whole relationship?

What is this stuff about having a crush on your friend? I mean does this women get off on make you feel bad? It almost seems like a power thing. She dates guys when on vacation. She tells you she is crushing on your best friend. 

I am having a hard time seeing why you think this person is a good spouse? I mean he is not scum but as a partner she has a lot to be desired.

I think the some people on the thread have a point though, that being that part of this was your choices. You were willing to marry a women who even without the cheating would be someone many of us would not have chosen. I get that that is not fun to read but you have to admit there were some BIG red flags. Staying in that context do you sure you are not still doing some of this? 

What I mean is, how much of this is you being the self described nerd thinking that you can do better then this beautiful outgoing wife who you married? Maybe no matter what this is something you need to work on. 

In the scheme of life and relationships and what is important you are a 9 and your wife is a 4. Just saying. Only on SI would people be defending your wife as being a good spouse. 

Here is what SI will never tell you. Her being contrite and trying to change is really only a requirement for R not a reason to R. The most important thing you need to think about when deciding to R is what will the quality of my life be moving forward. Not love or forgiveness, but what will my life be like. You can still forgive and love is not a good reason to be married. You get one life.


----------



## farsidejunky

sokillme said:


> I am going to proceed like it's you, but who knows. You could be firside for all I know. >


Moderators be losing their minds these days.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Walloped

Blondilocks said:


> What is weird is when people get their hackles up because what they posted in a public forum is (gasp) being talked about. If you want privacy and confidentiality, pay a licensed therapist.


:x:x:x


----------



## Absurdist

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I want to resurrect her 23 y/o self, curse her out, kick her to the curb, laugh at her while she cries and flies back home to her parents, then go back and be happy with my wife of today. It's a ridiculous feeling but that's where I'm at.


Unless you have a Delorean that’s not possible. Thus, what are you going to do?

HTM123 @farsidejunky has helped many men here. He is neither pro R, pro D or a WS apologist. What he does want you to be is an authentic man who is under control and becomes the leader of his own life.

What both of us want you to do is to take control of the circumstances. Today your circumstances have taken control of you. That’s no way to live.


----------



## Blondilocks

farsidejunky said:


> Moderators be losing their minds these days.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


You and Sassy, both. Tred gently, farside.:smile2:


----------



## Blondilocks

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Hi. I'm CantBeMe from SI. It's weird to find yourself being talked about on the internet "behind your back". Anyway, here I am, so lay it on me. Would love to hear the advice from this end of things. My wife to my knowledge has no idea this site exists, but of course that doesn't mean much. I'm going to assume anything I say here is private until I learn differently, not that I hold much of anything back at SI.
> 
> Fire away.


Did you engage in an emotional affair during your marriage? If so, did your wife call you a **** or any other names?


----------



## Blondilocks

Walloped said:


> :x:x:x


My mind is still not made up about you; but, I'll consider this an olive branch.:x


----------



## Walloped

HTM,

This forum is not my “home,” but it’s a good place if you want straight talk without pleasantries disguising what folks really want to say. The style is in your face and no pulled punches, but while that might be harsh for a new BS, at 5 months out you probably can take it. The key difference, in my limited observation, is regarding R. Here, you need to have a compelling and logical reason for R. Being in love won’t cut it. At SI they’ll support you if that’s what you say you want, but will identify things she’s doing wrong so you can gauge how R is going. They will not tell you to D her if you’ve said you want to R. Here, they will. That’s not a bad thing. It’s just different, and it helps to know the different styles so you can take the advice you get in context. 

What this place will do is help you see things very clearly. The good thing about that is if you still choose to R, and only you can make that determination no matter what anonymous forum posters tell you to do, then by virtue of engaging here you’ll do it clear-headed and having really thought it through.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I disagree with Farside...if you need to call your wife names (past tense) if she is being disrespectful, insensitive or insulting, do what you need to do. She cheated on you and lied about it for 12 years. So, maybe in 12 years...Like you said, it is less frequent, so you are making progess. 

What do people expect you to treat her with respect instantly after she disrespected you for 12 years? She is lucky if you don't find some strange to get back at her, much less D her.

Anyways, she sounds a little entitled just breezing through your thread, what is she doing for you?


----------



## sokillme

Absurdist said:


> Unless you have a Delorean that’s not possible. Thus, what are you going to do?
> 
> HTM123 @farsidejunky has helped many men here. He is neither pro R, pro D or a WS apologist. What he does want you to be is an authentic man who is under control and becomes the leader of his own life.
> 
> What both of us want you to do is to take control of the circumstances. Today your circumstances have taken control of you. That’s no way to live.


I agree with this though I am not so sure of the execution.

Getting on him about losing it on her a few times after he finds out his whole life is a lie is a little harsh. Personally I feel if he said the truth even if it's harsh so be it. 

I think the overall point is you need to get to the point where you take control of your life. Where you realize you are the catch, then see if your wife comes along. But if not you will be OK. In other words making the decision from a point of strength. 

All that being said in my opinion it's way to soon to assume all the troubles from her nature are over. For instance I don't think it's wise to assume she would never cheat again. It's quite obvious that she gets a lot of her self worth from sexual attention. The babysitter being the most recent example. What we have seen here is that people like that may lay dormant when they have kids and to abstaining from taking such behavior makes sense for them at the point in their life. However things change, life events change and usually if this is the pattern they use to make themselves feel good or self sooth, very often that type of person will go back to that pattern. 

When it comes to cheating you are safest when the person doesn't cheat because it's the right thing to do. Not circumstances or love or anything else like that because all those things change in marriages, they all ebb and flow. 

This is why her getting true counseling is very important, but even more important is for her realizing that this is what she is doing and how wrong it is when you are married. 

Your wife still has a lot of work to do. Frankly she wasn't a good candidate to be a wife in the first place. That doesn't change without true work and more importantly the desire to change.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Walloped said:


> HTM,
> 
> This forum is not my “home,” but it’s a good place if you want straight talk without pleasantries disguising what folks really want to say. The style is in your face and no pulled punches, but while that might be harsh for a new BS, at 5 months out you probably can take it. The key difference, in my limited observation, is regarding R. Here, you need to have a compelling and logical reason for R. Being in love won’t cut it. At SI they’ll support you if that’s what you say you want, but will identify things she’s doing wrong so you can gauge how R is going. They will not tell you to D her if you’ve said you want to R. Here, they will. That’s not a bad thing. It’s just different, and it helps to know the different styles so you can take the advice you get in context.
> 
> What this place will do is help you see things very clearly. The good thing about that is if you still choose to R, and only you can make that determination no matter what anonymous forum posters tell you to do, then by virtue of engaging here you’ll do it clear-headed and having really thought it through.


You're right Love doesn't cut it. We can all love again...likely with someone younger, hotter and with less baggage!


----------



## HappenedToMe123

Thanks. I'm enjoying the thoughts so far.

1. Of course I know this forum isn't private, I just meant private from my wife.

2. To prove its me, I will post this following on my SI account in a little bit: It's been a hell of a day. Thanks to all those providing advice and/or support. I'm going to try to take the weekend off.


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> HTM,
> 
> This forum is not my “home,” but it’s a good place if you want straight talk without pleasantries disguising what folks really want to say. The style is in your face and no pulled punches, but while that might be harsh for a new BS, at 5 months out you probably can take it. The key difference, in my limited observation, is regarding R. Here, you need to have a compelling and logical reason for R. Being in love won’t cut it. At SI they’ll support you if that’s what you say you want, but will identify things she’s doing wrong so you can gauge how R is going. They will not tell you to D her if you’ve said you want to R. Here, they will. That’s not a bad thing. It’s just different, and it helps to know the different styles so you can take the advice you get in context.
> 
> What this place will do is help you see things very clearly. The good thing about that is if you still choose to R, and only you can make that determination no matter what anonymous forum posters tell you to do, then by virtue of engaging here you’ll do it clear-headed and having really thought it through.


I would add after hearing all that if you still choose R then your R will be better for it. 

One other thing that should be said about SI is that due to the nature of what that board is about almost 100% of all the posters' marriage has been touched by infidelity in some way. There are not a lot of folks with just normal good marriages. That is not to discount their advice but just to put where they are coming from into prospective. 

By the way I think it's funny that You (Walloped) of all people are advocating for our board, given your status on the other one. I think people would be ripping their garments over the sacrilege.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Thanks. I'm enjoying the thoughts so far.
> 
> 1. Of course I know this forum isn't private, I just meant private from my wife.
> 
> 2. To prove its me, I will post this following on my SI account in a little bit: It's been a hell of a day. Thanks to all those providing advice and/or support. I'm going to try to take the weekend off.


Sorry, we need your Social Security number and last 4 digits on your credit card.


----------



## BruceBanner

Dragan Jovanovic said:


> I just can not comprehand how someone can know that his wife did what she did and not divorce?? How is that possible??


The lack of indignation might be caused by low testosterone levels which continue to decline in men across the world. With a dose of just a plain lack of self-respect.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

BruceBanner said:


> Dragan Jovanovic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just can not comprehand how someone can know that his wife did what she did and not divorce?? How is that possible??
> 
> 
> 
> The lack of indignation might be caused by low testosterone levels which continue to decline in men across the world.
Click to expand...

Couple that with the copious amounts of estogen in our drinking water....


----------



## Blondilocks

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Sorry, we need your Social Security number and last 4 digits on your credit card.


Ha-ha. Nope, we need SS# and all the digits on the credit card (including the CVV). We ain't messing around.


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> HTM,
> 
> This forum is not my “home,” but it’s a good place if you want straight talk without pleasantries disguising what folks really want to say. The style is in your face and no pulled punches, but while that might be harsh for a new BS, at 5 months out you probably can take it. The key difference, in my limited observation, is regarding R. Here, you need to have a compelling and logical reason for R. Being in love won’t cut it. At SI they’ll support you if that’s what you say you want, but will identify things she’s doing wrong so you can gauge how R is going. They will not tell you to D her if you’ve said you want to R. Here, they will. That’s not a bad thing. It’s just different, and it helps to know the different styles so you can take the advice you get in context.
> 
> What this place will do is help you see things very clearly. The good thing about that is if you still choose to R, and only you can make that determination no matter what anonymous forum posters tell you to do, then by virtue of engaging here you’ll do it clear-headed and having really thought it through.


Why whenever you post on our threads I always think of DC/Marvel crossovers. 

Except I can't post on your board.


----------



## faithfulman

CBM/HTM - Why not post a bit here, then start a thread that can be put in the private forum?

I think you'll hear different points of view that may be helpful.


----------



## sokillme

I agree. Write your full story from what you posted on SI but also the part about her cheating. 

By the way I just read her update in her post, the thing that stuck me about what she said is that even when she posted on SI she really didn't do it in good faith. Which explains why she has sanitized some of it. My question to you is does she do anything in good faith? I think your wife has a real hard time being authentic. That is a hard person to be married to.

I don't know how you can have a good partnership when one of the partners is not real and doesn't have the strength to be real. 

I will say in her defense though, if she is to be believed then you ask her to tell you the scariest thing to know about her. Well she told you. That's kind of don't ask if you can handle the truth. Those are things best not spoken of in relationships. People have crushes even with best friends. The problem is her boundaries in the past. If she had rock solid boundaries that wouldn't be a problem. Which again leads to this idea is it wise to stay married to her. Not unless she gets it and does the work.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Whats f-ked about this is I don't know how I'd handle a situation like this. Like if my girl cheated on me, I'd throw her out like yesterdays trash...Been there, done that. But after finding out 12 years later and nothing since, I almost think it worth staying just so she doesn't rip his wallet out of his a$$hole in divorce. I guess it was technically before they were married, so there is that. Tough situation. She still lied for all those years, but AWALT. I think he has a valid get of jail card for staying with this cheater.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

faithfulman said:


> CBM/HTM - Why not post a bit here, then start a thread that can be put in the private forum?
> 
> I think you'll hear different points of view that may be helpful.


I would love to do that - what is the process?



> I don't know how you can have a good partnership when one of the partners is not real and doesn't have the strength to be real.
> 
> I will say in her defense though, if she is to be believed then you ask her to tell you the scariest thing to know about her. Well she told you. That's kind of don't ask if you can handle the truth. Those are things best not spoken of in relationships. People have crushes even with best friends. The problem is her boundaries in the past. If she had rock solid boundaries that wouldn't be a problem. Which again leads to this idea is it wise to stay married to her. Not unless she gets it and does the work.


She does struggle with authenticity, and I think it's a direct result of her affair and lying. She has definitely muted herself and her opinions for years.

You are 100% right about the "be careful what you wish for" thing. My wife didn't throw the "I've had fantasies about your best friend" thing in my face at all, I asked her a tough question, she gave me a much less scary answer at first, I pressed harder, she finally spilled the bombshell. She has also described it as not a fantasy about him so much as a fantasy of saving him from his wife, who is definitely a pretty ****ty person and he does deserve better. So, I think it's more about my wife rescuing him/dominance over his wife than attraction to him. 



> I think the overall point is you need to get to the point where you take control of your life. Where you realize you are the catch, then see if your wife comes along. But if not you will be OK. In other words making the decision from a point of strength.


I'm working on this. I have never been more confident in myself than I have been the last few years. I am self-employed and very successful, I think I have gotten more attractive as I age, I am working out more than I have in the past, I no longer have social anxiety they way I use to, etc. Honestly, part of what is making this decision hard for me is that I feel this pretty intense urge to WANT to be single, to experience it as a confident person, to have the position of power in a relationship. 



> This forum is not my “home,” but it’s a good place if you want straight talk without pleasantries disguising what folks really want to say. The style is in your face and no pulled punches, but while that might be harsh for a new BS, at 5 months out you probably can take it. The key difference, in my limited observation, is regarding R. Here, you need to have a compelling and logical reason for R. Being in love won’t cut it. At SI they’ll support you if that’s what you say you want, but will identify things she’s doing wrong so you can gauge how R is going. They will not tell you to D her if you’ve said you want to R. Here, they will. That’s not a bad thing. It’s just different, and it helps to know the different styles so you can take the advice you get in context.
> 
> What this place will do is help you see things very clearly. The good thing about that is if you still choose to R, and only you can make that determination no matter what anonymous forum posters tell you to do, then by virtue of engaging here you’ll do it clear-headed and having really thought it through.


Thanks Walloped. Clearity is pretty much my fantasy right now. One way or the other, I want to feel like I am making an informed choice that is the best for me. I don't feel like I can do that right now. I am basically treading water, trying to monitor my own feelings and hope for progress in either direction.


----------



## farsidejunky

You are in a position of power in your relationship.

That you don't see it is a symptom of what I am pressing you to delve into. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## HappenedToMe123

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Whats f-ked about this is I don't know how I'd handle a situation like this. Like if my girl cheated on me, I'd throw her out like yesterdays trash...Been there, done that. But after finding out 12 years later and nothing since, I almost think it worth staying just so she doesn't rip his wallet out of his a$$hole in divorce. I guess it was technically before they were married, so there is that. Tough situation. She still lied for all those years, but AWALT. I think he has a valid get of jail card for staying with this cheater.


Fear of divorce/money issues is not really a concern of mine. My wife works and makes good money, I don't think I would be killed in support and we don't have much in assets to split anyway besides home equity. 

If her confession was about an affair that happened last year and not 12 years ago, I think I would be 100% gone. As it is, I feel like I am playing detective to confirm her story that she has been a faithful wife to me for at least 8 years and never cheated again. The poly obviously helped with that. She has given me full access to email, phone, social media, etc. I really do think that she has changed.


----------



## Blondilocks

Blondilocks said:


> Did you engage in an emotional affair during your marriage? If so, did your wife call you a **** or any other names?


Please answer the questions.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

> What is this stuff about having a crush on your friend? I mean does this women get off on make you feel bad? It almost seems like a power thing. She dates guys when on vacation. She tells you she is crushing on your best friend.
> 
> I am having a hard time seeing why you think this person is a good spouse? I mean he is not scum but as a partner she has a lot to be desired.
> 
> I think the some people on the thread have a point though, that being that part of this was your choices. You were willing to marry a women who even without the cheating would be someone many of us would not have chosen. I get that that is not fun to read but you have to admit there were some BIG red flags. Staying in that context do you sure you are not still doing some of this?
> 
> What I mean is, how much of this is you being the self described nerd thinking that you can do better then this beautiful outgoing wife who you married? Maybe no matter what this is something you need to work on.
> 
> In the scheme of life and relationships and what is important you are a 9 and your wife is a 4. Just saying. Only on SI would people be defending your wife as being a good spouse.
> 
> Here is what SI will never tell you. Her being contrite and trying to change is really only a requirement for R not a reason to R. The most important thing you need to think about when deciding to R is what will the quality of my life be moving forward. Not love or forgiveness, but what will my life be like. You can still forgive and love is not a good reason to be married. You get one life.


So, I do think my wife has been portrayed a bit harsher than what the reality of her is, and part of it is my fault because I have been venting a lot the past week or so. My wife was undeniably a ****ty girlfriend back in 2006-2008. That's the timeframe of her affair, the "vacation boyfriend" in the UK, the drinks with ****head and sharing that she cheated on me, and the crush on her gym buddy. During this timeframe she was 23-25 and very immature. The things other than the affair piss me off and hurt, but to her credit, she did say "no" to two very explicit propositions. I think after her A, she was still selfish, still seeking attention and validation, but had at least developed some (****ty) boundaries where she gave herself permission to indulge in attention, but would turn down any physical interaction. I believe her when she explains it to me this way, her actions fit the description and again, she did pass the poly about never having touched another man after her A. 

Since being married, her indiscretions are all pretty minor - for instance, she has admitted that she would check my email or go through my phone if I left it laying around. She did this I presume because she was a cheater and so she assumed I might be too, projecting her own faults onto others. She had fantasies about my buddy and a couple other people. I find these harmless in general, I have had fantasies and crushes too. They only hurt in context of the grander scheme of things. She has secretly masturbated more than I ever thought, and watches porn I find uncomfortable for her to be watching (guys jerking off alone, or gay male sex). I watch plenty of porn and a lot of it would surely make uncomfortable too, so I feel like I can't be a huge hypocrite about this. Etc, etc.

What really bothers me about her in our married life and always has is her inability to communicate and her lashing out/outbursts where she says hurtful **** to me for no good reason. I think this is what she can work on the most, and I think it's a direct result of her conflict avoidance. She keeps her feelings inside until the explode out, and it sucks. But at least now she is aware of it and actively working on it in her IC.

My wife also did not fit the description of "crazy party girl that only an idiot would marry." I am not an idiot and wouldn't have married her if she was actually a train wreck or close to it. I think the image of her has become a caricature. Sure, she smoke and drank and partied in college, but so did I and so did a million other people. She has only slept with 5 guys, including her AP, so she's not extremely promiscuous by any stretch. Her promiscuity was in making out with guys - she would hook up with someone practically every time she went out partying back in those days, but she would draw the line short of sex (usually well short, i.e. just kissing, but sometimes more). She also had an eating disorder, but that was much less extreme when I met her and I helped her get it under control (although she has since told me it lasted much longer into our relationship than I knew). All that is to say, I think she was a pretty typical college girl. She was also smart as hell, which she gets no credit for, and I think her own insecurities and need for attention come from always being judged on her good looks instead of her brain or personality. Pretty much the opposite of my hang ups. 

I definitely have ongoing hangups around feeling like a nerd who is out of my league with her, but those feelings go away more every year. I am also not the the caricature that I have been made out to be. I have always played sports and loved sports, I played football in high school, I played hockey my whole life, I am athletic, and I am not ugly. But, I have always been on the larger side and always sensitive about my weight, and I have a twin brother (not identical) who has always been skinny and in good shape, which I think has ****ed me up for my whole life. Every time someone sees a picture of him for the first time and says something like "Oh! You guys, uh, don't like very much alike", all I can hear is "damn, he's much better looking than you" and I feel like ****. And he actually is a huge nerd, just a good looking one. But I do think I was always driven to try to have hotter girlfriends than him because of how much I felt like I was always being compared. 

Anyway, I'll save that for therapy. I just wanted to give some more background.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

> Did you engage in an emotional affair during your marriage? If so, did your wife call you a **** or any other names? Please answer the questions.


Didn't realize I was under cross-examination, sorry your honor. Anyway, no, I don't believe I had an EA. I never had feelings or thoughts for this person, we never texted or spoke outside of work, I really just used her to feel good and get excitement in my life. It was more like a PA but without sex. We had three very inappropriate interactions, each spaced about 3-4 months apart over the course of a year, with no contact in between. But when we would see each other in person for work, it would get inappropriate and she would flirt with me aggressively. She exposed herself to me on the first two interactions (flashed boobs the first time, pulled up her skirt the second time), then on the third she explicitly told me she wanted to have sex with me while in my office. I told her no. She came on to me hard, rubbed against me, and I did actually touch her breast very briefly at the end of this encounter, but I made her leave and we did not have sex or kiss or touch at all other than the very brief boob poke (yes, that's what I did, I literally "booped" her boob like I was poking my dog's nose. I am an idiot.) The thought of kissing her actually repulses me, she isn't ugly but I never found her attractive and that very much played a role in me being able to say no pretty easily. After this last encounter, I cut off all communication with her as I knew a line had been crossed and I couldn't trust myself around her anymore, it wasn't just "harmless fun" anymore in my mind. This was last summer. 

I justified my actions because I told myself that my wife has kissed this guy years ago, and so as long as I did less than that, I was still on the moral high ground and gave myself permission to misbehave. One of my best friends was a huge enabler, I would talk to him after each event and re-tell the story of what happened and he would basically cheer me on - "dude, this never happens to guys our age, it's awesome. As long as you don't have sex it's harmless." I haven't cut him out of my life yet, but I feel like I probably should, but he is one of my oldest friends so I really don't want to. I also never told my wife and had no intentions to until she confessed the true story of her A to me. I realize how ****ty and wrong this is now. I think I gave myself too much credit for saying no to sex, and too little blame for everything else. 

Anyway, that's the short story of my affair-type behavior. I still struggle to call it an affair, but it probably was and SI was probably right to call me a mad hatter. I still resent them from moving my thread though, it felt like such a gut punch at the time.

ETA: My wife didn't call me any names and she didn't find out until after her own confession. I confessed to this as a way to commiserate with her about seeking attention and because we were both trying to display radical honesty. I didn't throw it in her face to hurt her. She never called me names about what I did, but she was hurt by my actions, obviously. I think she is scared to show too much hurt over it, like she doesn't feel like she has a right to be hurt by it because of what she's done.


----------



## sokillme

*Here goes, I should have my head examined for spending an hour on a nice Saturday writing all this. *




HappenedToMe123 said:


> I would love to do that - what is the process?
> 
> *You have got to move this to your other thread as they will close this one because it's a major T/J. *
> 
> She does struggle with authenticity, and I think it's a direct result of her affair and lying. She has definitely muted herself and her opinions for years.
> 
> You are 100% right about the "be careful what you wish for" thing. My wife didn't throw the "I've had fantasies about your best friend" thing in my face at all, I asked her a tough question, she gave me a much less scary answer at first, I pressed harder, she finally spilled the bombshell. She has also described it as not a fantasy about him so much as a fantasy of saving him from his wife, who is definitely a pretty ****ty person and he does deserve better. So, I think it's more about my wife rescuing him/dominance over his wife than attraction to him.
> 
> *I think you are wrong to assume that it's because of lying about the affair. Dude her whole life and MO is lying. She lied while you dated and up until 6 months ago. The lying after the affair was a symptom of who she is. She's a liar. (I just want to point out for our guests that this last line I wrote here would have me banned from SI. Even though it's the truth and needs to be said. Clarity is the most important thing when you are making life altering decisions. Not feelings. Just saying. :x)
> 
> 
> And from your perspective who cares why, there is never going to be a satisfactory answer to why she did this to you. It was a very ****ty thing to do and it took away your agency. From an emotional point of view, even if she has some great FOO issues which it doesn't seem like from her post she does (just the crappy parent's type thing) that doesn't discount the fact that others have had it worse and wouldn't do what she did. Please don't be one of these people looking for an answer that is going to make it all OK or make sense. Occam's razor, like I said in my last post. One of your wife's MOs is using her sexuality to get attention. To make her self feel good and powerful. At the time she really didn't care how that affected you. She wanted the high that all her actions gave her. She is still struggling with wanting that now it's just now the risks are too great. That's it. Do people like your wife eventually get how painful that is to their partners? Most don't or don't care. Maybe some do, but do they get it on a visceral level? Probably not. The only time I think these type of people do is when it's done to them, I have a least seen post like that. There is someone on this board @FoolishOne whom that seemed to happen to. But her husband turned himself into a recovering POS in the process. Knowing the why is useful for her in the respect that it will enable her to learn her tendencies and why she feels like she does to help her fight against her nature. From your perspective what needs to happen is she needs to fix that.
> 
> Being attracted to you friend isn't a big deal in and of itself in my mind. Would it be a big deal if you were attracted to one of her friends? Hell you probably are attracted to one or more of her friends. I should hope you aren't stupid enough to tell your spouse though. That's just another thing that you have to suffer though married to these WS, they are so used to being inauthentic that they have no baseline to know when to keep things private, dare or not. Most people learn this in their teens. In this respect it's like being married to a child. Overall though people are attracted to other people that doesn't stop just because you are married. It actually makes sense because they are friends and you are married you are probably all similar. Why this is a big deal and I am sure you know this is because she has poor boundaries and that attention that he could bring is like a drug to her. I would hope that your friend is not a POS though even if she were to be.
> 
> Also continuing in the mode of "straight talk" why did you even bring that up in your other thread? That was to give you some sympathy votes wasn't it? That's kind of bush and I think you know it. Look I don't care but if you want to get the best out of this forum you would do better to dispense with that kind "playing to the crowd" stuff and just be blatantly honest. It will serve you better.*
> 
> I'm working on this. I have never been more confident in myself than I have been the last few years. I am self-employed and very successful, I think I have gotten more attractive as I age, I am working out more than I have in the past, I no longer have social anxiety they way I use to, etc. Honestly, part of what is making this decision hard for me is that I feel this pretty intense urge to WANT to be single, to experience it as a confident person, to have the position of power in a relationship.
> 
> *So I see a lot of myself in you. In fact it's why I am grateful that I actually caught my first love cheating on me. I had just proposed but she didn't say yes right away and I started digging. Found her talking to him in her email. Saying how all she could do was think of him and I was proposing. She knew him a month. I was with her ever day for over a year. If I hadn't caught her I probably would have been you. I also can relate to accepting less then your worth because you have not yet established yourself. I think, for sure I did that with this women. There were a ton of red flags that I just ignored even though I knew they were bad because I "Was in Love" :slap: Or really I thought she was my only chance.
> 
> I like you found my voice a few year later. Actually the recovery from that helped me find it. The next one whom I did marry was of a much higher caliber. We are at 15 years. But even if we didn't make it. I would be fine. I am a good ****ing catch.
> 
> What I would say is one of the best things we can do as men is to compete. Honestly that is what you doing right? Competing with the POS guy she was banging. Competing with yourself. You are doing that now but I suggest you use this to dive into that. If you lift, start to diet and really up your workout. Buy some really nice cloths. Learn what women are attracted to and do your best to knock that out of the park. That will have some benefits for you. First of it will give you tangible goals and daily victories. Victories make you feel good and so do the endorphins. It's the bodies natural anti-depressant Also you can turn something negative into a positive. You can use this event to be the catalyst to make yourself better. You are never going to have better motivation. And it's something you can do that really has nothing to do with your wife. Detaching yourself from her right now is not the worst thing you can do. It will give you clarity, one way or another. You need to continue to establish your own self worth. If she is there in the end, then lucky her.
> 
> One of things that has become obvious to me in reading about infidelity is that any relationship where one spouse feel like they are not at the same level (or their spouse isn't in to them the same way) is going to have problems. The best kind of marriages both spouses feels like their love is a gift (with stipulations). You need to get yourself to that point. Then you will be making decisions from a position of strength. And the final thing is if it doesn't work out then at least you will be in the best shape of your life for round two of trying to find a lifetime partner.
> 
> Finally lets deal with your (I am going to say almost) EA. I say almost because you caught yourself when you thought it was getting to far and stopped. The stopping is what in my mind keeps it from being an affair. It's the act of knowing it's wrong and still doing it that makes it wrong. So I think part of what has happened here is you are going through one of these transition times that they often call a mid life crisis but I think happen more then once all through your life. Like you said you got some money, you are starting to see your worth and deep down you know you kind of settled on your wife because of how she treated you when you were dating. Which probably lead to the questions that lead to you finding out the truth. Also now the roles are reversed. Even if she didn't cheat on you she did treat you like ****. Now you have the opportunity to do the same. The truth is your wife's high in demand years are waning, you are now in your peak. And you know that when she was in her peak she basically took advantage of all that had to offer her now why should you do the same. What's worse for her is that she even cheated on you. (This is something that cheaters never think about by the way). So now it's really like why the hell should I care about that. Now's your turn.
> 
> I don't think you are wrong...
> 
> Here is the thing, if you do cheat will it be with someone who is also married, therefore, you being a part of, causing the kind of pain in someone else that you now feel? Also the women you are married to is also your kid's Mom. Do you really think it's OK to do that to them for for your own sake? How will that affect them. Finally what if you meet someone who really could be a great partner to you. How will that affect your relationship if it starts off so tawdry?
> 
> And then there's this one small other and most important thing. Honor. To me the word honor and the word men should be synonymous. If you lose it you will never fully get it back. You should selfishly want to keep that because it's what makes you a man. Not your sex count. Not your job. Not money. Your integrity is the only thing you have full control of in this life. It means more then anything else, it's the thing that you can be most proud of. When it's all said and done, you want to look back and your life and say - with all the **** that the world threw at me, I didn't break, I ****ing won. If you get anything at all from this long winded, typing forever, entire post this is the most important thing. Part of your regret about your past is you are seeing your worth in sex count. Which is a pretty typical modern way for men to think. It's also a trap. I mean looking at it that way then Ron Jeremy is the top Alpha man right? Dude Ron Jeremy is gross. What really is a man? Really? Is he the number of women he screwed? His wildest sex acts? Or is he his determination. His drive. How he competes. How he treats the ones he loves his friends and family. How he treats the weak and less fortunate. Is he a father and a husband? What do you want to be man? What kind of man? That is really the question you need to answer. If it's the honorable kind then be that, live that. Compete, compete with yourself, be that for yourself and hold you head up ****ing high! Never regret that
> 
> 
> Now that that doesn't mean you can't decide that this is all too much and that staying with your wife is settling. I think you are well within your rights to do that. I can even understand if staying with her hurts your honor and that is why you must leave. I get that. If that is the case then Rhett Butler you way on with your life and be free. If you do leave then you can then go have the time of your life. But don't do it to go have the time of your life. Lots of things in life can be the time of your life. Being the head of a family is a pretty ****ing spectacular way to have the time of your life though, just saying. All I am saying is if you want to move on then tell her first, that is the right and honorable thing to do. *
> 
> Thanks Walloped. Clearity is pretty much my fantasy right now. One way or the other, I want to feel like I am making an informed choice that is the best for me. I don't feel like I can do that right now. I am basically treading water, trying to monitor my own feelings and hope for progress in either direction.
> 
> *There I hope did SI's patron saint's (or should I say SI's Kedoshim?) opinion of us justice.*


----------



## Blondilocks

"Here goes, I should have my head examined for spending an hour on a nice Saturday writing all this." 
@sokillme, you did a great job of exonerating the OP of any responsibility for his crappy behavior which occurred after the marriage. I think his wife deserves to sling a few insults and names his way. He isn't lily white and his behavior needs to be examined, too.

OP, thank you for answering the questions.


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## djwind34

Hello HappentedToMe/CMB.

I've read both you and your wifes threads at SI. I think you've made it pretty clear that your wife has changed as a person from her younger self, and that she is a much better person. However, when I read that she texted what she did to your babysitter, man the red flags shot out big time.

I understand your wife wanting to make someone feel good, to generally surmise how she felt about it, but after the 5 months of hell you've been dealing, her posts on SI about trying to change (I actually like SI, I think she's gotten some good advice there), to do what she did?

The way I interpreted it, was that she did it after feeling emboldened in finding her true self, her true voice and sharing who she is, trying to shed the submissive person she became (General terms, shes written alot and I'm trying to summarize what I picked up.) I think too much focus on both her thread, your thread, and perhaps both of you has been put on her previous affair, even after you caught her sending that text chain. That is easily the beginning of a sexting chain, any human being can pick up on the flirtation there. The alarm should be that she dove into this after beginning "working on herself," as often is termed at SI.


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## HappenedToMe123

Sokillme, thanks for the great post. If nothing else, I have succeeded in having a bunch of strangers give me more of their time and energy than I could possibly deserve. Blondilocks, you're very welcome, not sure why you feel the need to be so passive aggressive to me but whatever, I've voluntarily put my truth out there. You can sit in judgement all you want. 

So today had been a good day, the posts at SI and here have helped me and I was actually feeling pretty sympathetic for my wife. Then an hour ago in the car, my wife has the audacity to say to me, "my friend L is planning a girl's getaway weekend in September, do you think I can go?" I couldn't believe she was asking me that. I said "I don't know how I can possibly answer that question. I don't know where we'll be in a month, let alone September. You really do just take me for granted, don't you? And now I have to be the bad guy saying no to this. Why couldn't you just tell her no without asking me. How did you think I would feel?"

Feels like back to square one to me and like she will never be able to actually empathize with me. Am I overreacting?


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## djwind34

Yikes. No, you're not. And I think deep down inside, even though you're asking for opinions on it, you know you're not over reacting.


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## farsidejunky

What you say is passive aggressive is actually him holding you accountable for your actions, which you minimized.

You realize your drive in that illicit relationship was exactly the same as hers in her A's, right?

As for her girls weekend...lol...yeah, she doesn't get it.

She might not ever.

But then again, based on how you framed your EA with that CoW, you might not either.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks

farsidejunky said:


> What you say is passive aggressive is actually *him *holding you accountable for your actions, which you minimized.
> 
> You realize your drive in that illicit relationship was exactly the same as hers in her A's, right?
> 
> As for her girls weekend...lol...yeah, she doesn't get it.
> 
> She might not ever.
> 
> But then again, based on how you framed your EA with that CoW, you might not either.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


If I may make a small correction, it is *her*.:grin2:


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## Blondilocks

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Sokillme, thanks for the great post. If nothing else, I have succeeded in having a bunch of strangers give me more of their time and energy than I could possibly deserve. *Blondilocks, you're very welcome, not sure why you feel the need to be so passive aggressive to me but whatever, I've voluntarily put my truth out there. You can sit in judgement all you want. *
> 
> So today had been a good day, the posts at SI and here have helped me and I was actually feeling pretty sympathetic for my wife. Then an hour ago in the car, my wife has the audacity to say to me, "my friend L is planning a girl's getaway weekend in September, do you think I can go?" I couldn't believe she was asking me that. I said "I don't know how I can possibly answer that question. I don't know where we'll be in a month, let alone September. You really do just take me for granted, don't you? And now I have to be the bad guy saying no to this. Why couldn't you just tell her no without asking me. How did you think I would feel?"
> 
> Feels like back to square one to me and like she will never be able to actually empathize with me. Am I overreacting?


I don't know why you think I'm being passive aggressive. I asked for the story of your affair to get it from the horse's mouth. 

This is what I see: 

girl dates boy and cheats on him. Didn't tell him. Married boy and proceeds to be a good, faithful wife and mother.

boy dates girl and is faithful. Married girl and several years into marriage decides to play doctor/nurse with office coworker. Runs and tells friend and giggles like a 7th grader. Didn't tell wife until crap hit the fan. 

Now, who is the worse marriage partner? Y'all can go 'round and 'round pointing fingers; but, all you'll get is dizzy. 

I suggest you get off the cross because someone needs the wood. You and wife sit down and hammer out a Rules of Conduct for marriage and get on with your lives. I suggest you do this before your wife decides she is the better marriage partner and tires of the hypocrisy.

I really do believe that you can get past this but only if you are willing to stop nursing the hurt. Remember, she can be just as nasty of a partner as you and, yet, has abstained. Good luck.


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## faithfulman

Blondilocks said:


> girl dates boy and cheats on him. Didn't tell him. Married boy and proceeds to be a good, faithful wife and mother.


Incorrect.


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## HappenedToMe123

I think you've done a tremendous job of minimizing my wife's actions and making mine sound as bad as you can. I don't care to debate you on this, I don't think you're necessarily even wrong (you're just an *******, Walter). I'm here for help, if you feel you can't provide any because of my actions then feel free not to provide it. You asked for the truth, I told it, so I'll get off the cross as soon as you stop crucifying me. If you think my feelings are invalid because of the **** I did, we'll, your opinion can't change my feelings.


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## faithfulman

Blondilocks said:


> I don't know why you think I'm being passive aggressive. I asked for the story of your affair to get it from the horse's mouth.
> 
> This is what I see:
> 
> girl dates boy and cheats on him. Didn't tell him. Married boy and proceeds to be a good, faithful wife and mother.
> 
> boy dates girl and is faithful. Married girl and several years into marriage decides to play doctor/nurse with office coworker. Runs and tells friend and giggles like a 7th grader. Didn't tell wife until crap hit the fan.


From everything I have read from both sides, here is what actually happened:

1) Over 12 years ago, HappenedToMe123's then-girlfriend now wife cheated on him by having sex with another man which included having sex in a bathroom at a party and sucking him off in a car (I think)
2) She never told HappenedToMe123.
3) HappenedToMe123 saw an inappropriate text on his girlfriend/wife's phone causing him to confront her.
4) Wife/GF lies to HappenedToMe123 and said it was just some kissing.
5) They get married and have kids.
6) HappenedToMe123's now-wife has at least 2 more inappropriate interactions with men that she has admitted to, that he does not find out about until after her "confession". She also keeps one of these men in her family's life via a family friendship.
7) After many years of the doubts caused by her lies eating at him, in an attempt to balance the scales HappenedToMe123 engages in his own inappropriate activity that falls faaaar short of party-sex-in-a-bathroom - which he admits was wrong.
8) After being questioned again, HappenedToMe123's wife finally admits to the sexual affair - after 12 years of marriage - because by her own admission she thinks he won't leave her now.

***

By the way describing a woman who has a sexual affair, then lies about it to her man's face when he confronts her AND then for 12 years thereafter as a "good, faithful wife and mother" is absurd.

Fact is, if HappenedToMe123 had not seen the inappropriate text, she would never have told him. And even then she continued her sketchy behavior.




Blondilocks said:


> Now, who is the worse marriage partner?


HappenedToMe123's wife is quite obviously the worse marriage partner.


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## faithfulman

@HappenedToMe123 - trying to compare your using nasty language or even your ill-advised attempt at revenge or whatever it was, is false-equivalency.

It's like your neighbor stole your car and wrecked it, and you could not prove it, so after many years of being pissed, you stole his lawn-gnome.

I guess they are both stealing, but they are in no way equivalent.

I'd also like to point out that when one betrays another in such a personal and hurtful way as your wife did you, some foul language being hurled by the hurt party is to be expected, it's a normal human reaction.

That doesn't make it right, but I am not going to hold you to the standards of Jesus.

I feel the same way about your transgression. It was bad, and you should not have done it, but it is nowhere near the betrayal visited upon you, and your also very wrong transgression was a reaction to the betrayal.

It's just not the same thing.

I have some comments about your struggle, but I will have to add them later when I have more time.

I think you should start your own thread.


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## sokillme

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Sokillme, thanks for the great post. If nothing else, I have succeeded in having a bunch of strangers give me more of their time and energy than I could possibly deserve. Blondilocks, you're very welcome, not sure why you feel the need to be so passive aggressive to me but whatever, I've voluntarily put my truth out there. You can sit in judgement all you want.
> 
> So today had been a good day, the posts at SI and here have helped me and I was actually feeling pretty sympathetic for my wife. Then an hour ago in the car, my wife has the audacity to say to me, "my friend L is planning a girl's getaway weekend in September, do you think I can go?" I couldn't believe she was asking me that. I said "I don't know how I can possibly answer that question. I don't know where we'll be in a month, let alone September. You really do just take me for granted, don't you? And now I have to be the bad guy saying no to this. Why couldn't you just tell her no without asking me. How did you think I would feel?"
> 
> Feels like back to square one to me and like she will never be able to actually empathize with me. Am I overreacting?


You are not taking the right tact. You are not going to be able to passive aggressively, whine and complain your wife into having good boundaries and if you try, all it will do is make you less attractive. You are not operating from the CORRECT premise that you are the catch here, you need to start. You are not wrong, she doesn't get it. But it's always been obvious that she doesn't get it. She is a liar and a cheat. She may never get it. That is the point of all this isn't it? 

So right now she is on probation. Is she going to step up or not. You are moving forward, is she going to do enough to have you want to have her come with you. That is where you are at. See what she does. That is about the best of how this will work. 

So tell her you think that is bull**** given her track record and considering all the trauma you have been through, don't start a fight, don't whine about her not feeling your pain, just tell her how you feel and if you have to leave the house for a while go do something for yourself. Then watch her actions. 

I don't believe in forbidding adults from doing stuff, acting like you are your spouses parent. I believe their actions show you who they are and you can then determine if that is the type of person you want to be with. I am not saying you can't say when something is bull****, but you say it and then you see how they react. 

You can't make her change only she can do that. But you need to get that you will be fine if she doesn't but you might not be with her in the end. Again you are the catch here.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

faithfulman said:


> @HappenedToMe123 - trying to compare your using nasty language or even your ill-advised attempt at revenge or whatever it was, is false-equivalency.
> 
> It's like your neighbor stole your car and wrecked it, and you could not prove it, so after many years of being pissed, you stole his lawn-gnome.
> 
> I guess they are both stealing, but they are in no way equivalent.
> 
> I'd also like to point out that when one betrays another in such a personal and hurtful way as your wife did you, some foul language being hurled by the hurt party is to be expected, it's a normal human reaction.
> 
> That doesn't make it right, but I am not going to hold you to the standards of Jesus.
> 
> I feel the same way about your transgression. It was bad, and you should not have done it, but it is nowhere near the betrayal visited upon you, and your also very wrong transgression was a reaction to the betrayal.
> 
> It's just not the same thing.
> 
> I have some comments about your struggle, but I will have to add them later when I have more time.
> 
> I think you should start your own thread.


Thank you for saving me the frustration of having to write out exactly what you did. I plan to start my thread once I hit the posts needed to post in private. I would prefer for this website to be "mine", SI has become difficult with us both posting there, and we both read all of each other's stuff.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

> She is on probation. Is she going to step up or not. You are moving forward, is she going to do enough to have you want to have her come with you. That is where you are at.


I am working towards this. I did leave the house today and got dinner with the kids. I'm tired of being the one who leaves, I told my wife either she could leave or I was going out with the kids, and so I did. 

I really almost lost it again today. When I said to her, "how could you be asking me about a ****ing girl's weekend right now?", her response was, "I thought of it as an opportunity for self-healing and rejuvenation." 

What I struggle with is this - how much room for mistakes/improvements do you leave while in this "purgatory" position of not sure if I want to D or R. I don't want to give up, but I am so tired of feeling like she has no empathy and is constantly selfish.


----------



## sokillme

Blondilocks said:


> "Here goes, I should have my head examined for spending an hour on a nice Saturday writing all this."
> 
> @sokillme, you did a great job of exonerating the OP of any responsibility for his crappy behavior which occurred after the marriage. I think his wife deserves to sling a few insults and names his way. He isn't lily white and his behavior needs to be examined, too.
> 
> OP, thank you for answering the questions.


I didn't exonerate him. I don't think he cheated. (I re-red his post though) so I am editing this. He did push right up to the limit though. He should have cut that **** off right away. I don't think they are on the same level, but your right he is not innocent flower. He can do better too. 

I think I have always been consistent about this though. You can't control feelings only how you react to them. Now it might be good for him to check himself going forward, at least for now with all that is going on. The key to avoid cheating is to avoid putting yourself in positions where you are tempted to cheat. I DID called him out on getting on his wife for basically something he asked from her.


----------



## sokillme

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Thank you for saving me the frustration of having to write out exactly what you did. I plan to start my thread once I hit the posts needed to post in private. I would prefer for this website to be "mine", SI has become difficult with us both posting there, and we both read all of each other's stuff.


Plus this site is better. 


Just saying. >


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## Walloped

sokillme said:


> By the way I think it's funny that You (Walloped) of all people are advocating for our board, given your status on the other one. I think people would be ripping their garments over the sacrilege.


I don’t want to detract from the advice and help HTM is getting. 

But it’s funny, isn’t it?

Truth is I think any forum that focuses on helping who’ve got through this crap is a positive thing. You know I’ve had my beef with this board and I think less focus on SI would be better, but I stand by what I said. There are positives to both sites, and negatives too. Everyone is different and this board may work for some, but not for others there and visa versa.

In short, I’m a fan of BS’s getting help. Period.


----------



## sokillme

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I am working towards this. I did leave the house today and got dinner with the kids. I'm tired of being the one who leaves, I told my wife either she could leave or I was going out with the kids, and so I did.
> 
> I really almost lost it again today. When I said to her, "how could you be asking me about a ****ing girl's weekend right now?", her response was, "I thought of it as an opportunity for self-healing and rejuvenation."
> 
> What I struggle with is this - how much room for mistakes/improvements do you leave while in this "purgatory" position of not sure if I want to D or R. I don't want to give up, but I am so tired of feeling like she has no empathy and is constantly selfish.


You need to stop reacting by saying in so many words. "I need you to validate my feelings!" It only makes you look week and needy. That is unattractive. The kind of man you want to be doesn't do that. Besides you shouldn't need her to validate your feelings. It's really the same kind of passive aggressive stuff the lead you to marry someone who treated you the way she did. Quit being needy. You have a right to be upset but you have to suffer alone, that is the deal with this. It's why it sucks. It's like cancer you are going to suffer for a while. She isn't going to get it the way you want anyway. No WS does, it's how they can do it. 

When she does stuff like that you need to tell how you feel in a cold and clinical way. "OK if that is what you want to do but understand after all that has happened now you are essentially going on vacation without me. I mean what the ****." That's is. Don't say another word unless she wants to talk about it, just add it to the scoreboard. And if you do talk about it, all you need to say is. Our trust factor is not in a very good place right now, I just don't think you get it. If she still is clueless tell her to figure it out. And let it go. 

Frankly you should be detaching anyway. Again she is on probation. She should be leading this not you. If she wants you let her do the work. The only time there is ever a chance anyway is if the WS does the work. HikeitOut is a good example of that. Though even she is clueless at times. 

It's not purgatory. You are going to see if she is capable of changing. If after a reasonable amount of time you don't think she is, you move on, that's it. 

Look if you are done now your done but make no mistake your wife's life isn't over if you don't make it. Yes she married you under false pretenses. You don't have to stay married to her to be a good guy. But it's not like it's going to end her life if you leave. She will be sad for a while, but she will get over it. None of this stuff is life and death even though we all think of it that way. I am living proof that you can be deeply in love with someone and happy and then later be deeply in love with someone else and be just as or even more so happy. That is actually a good thing because it means that you don't ever have to be so desperate for someone as to let them mistreat you. Your wife will in the end be fine, hell maybe she can date the babysitter. (That's a joke, but there is a point in there.)


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## sokillme

Walloped said:


> I don’t want to detract from the advice and help HTM is getting.
> 
> But it’s funny, isn’t it?
> 
> Truth is I think any forum that focuses on helping who’ve got through this crap is a positive thing. You know I’ve had my beef with this board and I think less focus on SI would be better, but I stand by what I said. There are positives to both sites, and negatives too. Everyone is different and this board may work for some, but not for others there and visa versa.
> 
> In short, I’m a fan of BS’s getting help. Period.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Blondilocks said:


> "Here goes, I should have my head examined for spending an hour on a nice Saturday writing all this."
> 
> @sokillme, you did a great job of exonerating the OP of any responsibility for his crappy behavior which occurred after the marriage. I think his wife deserves to sling a few insults and names his way. He isn't lily white and his behavior needs to be examined, too.
> 
> OP, thank you for answering the questions.


Well, IMO a penis entering an oriface escalates the offense dramatically.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, IMO a penis entering an oriface escalates the offense dramatically.


You know what, the more I think about it @Blondilocks is right. I was going from memory I had not read that post. I did downplay what he did. No one should be touching a coworkers boobs even if it's for a sec. Do I think it was an EA or a PA? No. But it's a ****ty thing to do when you are married non the less. His behavior does need to be worked on. 

Again I have to be consistent, protect your partner from the worst of your own nature. If your co-worker is flashing you twice and you are touching her inappropriately then **** no you are failing as a spouse. 

I think OP is right in the middle of a mid life crisis which just exacerbates the whole situation.


----------



## GoldenR

Blondilocks said:


> This is what I see:
> 
> girl dates boy and cheats on him. Didn't tell him. Married boy and proceeds to be a good, faithful wife and mother.


You left out the part about the gaslighting and minimizing and as more time went by, discussing "the kiss" several times throughout the marriage, only to have his W lie and minimize even more. Yet as more time went by, more and more OP knew in his gut that she was lying about it, thus feeling justified in what went down with his co-worker. 

If you consider lying to get him to marry her, and then lying for 12 more years being a "good and faithful wife", then we have different definitions of what that means. The only one she was faithful to was herself. How can he not feel duped into a bogus marriage? 



Blondilocks said:


> boy dates girl and is faithful. Married girl and several years into marriage decides to play doctor/nurse with office coworker. Runs and tells friend and giggles like a 7th grader. Didn't tell wife until crap hit the fan.
> 
> Now, who is the worse marriage partner? Y'all can go 'round and 'round pointing fingers; but, all you'll get is dizzy.
> 
> I suggest you get off the cross because someone needs the wood. You and wife sit down and hammer out a Rules of Conduct for marriage and get on with your lives. I suggest you do this before your wife decides she is the better marriage partner and tires of the hypocrisy.


The worse partner is the one that HAD SEX WITH SOMEONE ELSE and didn't give her fiance full disclosure of the kind of person she actually was before marrying her. The worse partner is the one lusting after her H's bff.


----------



## aine

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I think you've done a tremendous job of minimizing my wife's actions and making mine sound as bad as you can. I don't care to debate you on this, I don't think you're necessarily even wrong (you're just an *******, Walter). I'm here for help, if you feel you can't provide any because of my actions then feel free not to provide it. You asked for the truth, I told it, so I'll get off the cross as soon as you stop crucifying me. If you think my feelings are invalid because of the **** I did, we'll, your opinion can't change my feelings.


I'm triying to understand this scenario. After marriage YOU cheated, then SHE cheated and somehow her offense is worse than yours? Have I got that right? Seriously?:banghead:

Of course you feel like **** because of what she did, but i bet she felt the same way, so now what do you plan to do about it?


----------



## Blondilocks

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I think you've done a tremendous job of minimizing my wife's actions and making mine sound as bad as you can. I don't care to debate you on this, I don't think you're necessarily even wrong *(you're just an *******, Walter). I'm here for help*, if you feel you can't provide any because of my actions then feel free not to provide it. You asked for the truth, I told it, so I'll get off the cross as soon as you stop crucifying me. If you think my feelings are invalid because of the **** I did, we'll, your opinion can't change my feelings.


Thank you, thank you very much!

I don't think your feelings are invalid. I think they are about 12 years too late. You knew about the so-called 'kiss' 12 years ago and for whatever reason (lack of intestinal fortitude, fear whatever) didn't resolve it at the time. You are now feeling that your gut feeling has been validated and you want justice, damn it! But, didn't you use the word 'exemplary' to describe your wife's behavior since marriage?

It appears that she took her marriage vows seriously and honored her commitment after marriage. That nagging feeling you had needed to be resolved *before* you put the ring on her finger. 

You have stated that you are becoming more self-confident after marriage. This has to be in no small part due to your marriage. What I am encouraging you to do is to not throw out the baby with the bath water. You can build a marriage based on honesty and trust with time.

Go to SI and read Butforthegrace's post to you on page 24. He's laying it out for you. You've been dealing with this for 5 months and from all appearances intend to obsess for at least the next 6 months (Sept). How long do you want to wallow in this crap? But, hey, it's your life so waste as much of it as you want.

FYI, don't go around calling people *******s or you won't be here long enough to post in private.


----------



## Walloped

HTM,

First, see the different styles between this board and SI? You’re getting called out on your behavior even though you’re technically the BS. Because over here, s**tty behavior is s**tty behavior, no matter who does it. And for the record, people have divorced their spouses for what you did last summer (wasn’t that a movie?).

I agree with Blondilocks. (This post is now memorialized in the TAM archives)

What your wife did was prior to your M and should have been resolved before you got married. Since then, no fidelity issues beyond the quasi-fantasizing thing. I’m not saying she was June Cleaver, but honestly, no one’s wife is (nor would we want them to be). For whatever justification you gave yourself, *in your marriage*, you crossed a line she never crossed by having inappropriate contact with your coworker. Of course, you have to resolve that she lied to you about what she did prior to your marriage and therefore you were married under false pretenses. But IMO it sounds a lot more malicious than it probably was. She did something bad and promised herself she’d be a good and faithful wife. By all accounts she was. Should she have told you? Of course. But she didn’t think of it as lying to you every day for 12 years. She put it behind her and moved on and stayed true to you. I am not excusing her behavior or minimizing your right to be rocked by this revelation. Just framing it differently.

It sounds like, and I’m sorry if I’m misreading this, that you two really need to start being open and honest with each other about just what went on with whom, when, and figure out where you want to go from here. If you want to stay together, you have a lot of work to do on open communication and MC. D is the easier route, but it doesn’t sound like you’re interested in that as you seem to have had a good M. It’s the fact that she cheated while you were together prior to the official M. Can you deal with that? Do you even want to? You are 5 months out. Feel what you gotta feel, but limbo doesn’t help you. Decisions need to be made otherwise you’ll still be venting/posting 5 months from now. 

One last point, for most people, trust is a huge deal when it comes to infidelity. It’s not just the betrayal and anger and everything that comes with it, it’s the “how do I know you won’t do this again?” question. A positive, if there is one here, is that you know the answer to that question. For no outside reason, fear of D, or anything else other than her own determination and change in her mindset about what was right vs wrong, she was faithful throughout your M. I am not discounting what she did prior. But since then, she was faithful. I know that doesn’t help with dealing what she did, but it can go a long ways toward answering the question of whether you can trust her re: cheating again.

Sorry for the wall of text. Just some random thoughts on a Sunday morning before my coffee has had a chance to really kick in.


----------



## Blondilocks

*" I agree with Blondilocks. (This post is now memorialized in the TAM archives)"*

What??? Whoa, wait, am I dreaming?

Nope, just had to get it on record lest some elf deletes it.:wink2:


----------



## HappenedToMe123

I was quoting Big Lebowski in a light hearted way, not just calling you an *******. My point was you can both be right and come off as an insufferable jerk. 

I totally own what I did was very ****ty and I agree my wife has the right to D me over it. I don't think of it as an affair because nothing physical happened and we had no emotional connection, but I can see how it could be considered one. I don't want to argue semantics. I let it go where it went because of a sense of entitlement brought on by my wife's actions a decade ago. That's a really ****ty reason, actually it's no reason at all. I just found an excuse to act like an *******. I do give myself credit for saying no to sex and for going nc immediately after that event. I was ashamed of myself for what I did and still am. I am no white lily and have never pretended to be one. 

I can't stand the "marriage" cut off as if your behavior only matters post-m, especially when the M is under false pretenses. We're not religious so our M was a nice party, not a fundamental change in who we were as a couple. We were living together and sharing finances when she cheated on me, in a committed exclusive relationship, and the marriage wouldn't exist if I had agency back then.


----------



## faithfulman

Someone explain to me how HTM's wife's offense could be resolved 12 years ago when she continuously lied about it until about 6 months ago when she felt he would not leave her?


----------



## faithfulman

aine said:


> I'm triying to understand this scenario. After marriage YOU cheated, then SHE cheated and somehow her offense is worse than yours? *Have I got that right?* Seriously?:banghead:
> 
> Of course you feel like **** because of what she did, but i bet she felt the same way, so now what do you plan to do about it?


No Aine, that is not right. Look a few posts up to where I wrote a quick rundown of what has happened with HTM and his wife.

The long and short of it is she physically cheated numerous times in their engagement phase, lied about it prior to their wedding + for 12 years of their marriage AND engaged in other inappropriate activity once they were married years before HTM crossed any lines.


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> What your wife did was prior to your M and should have been resolved before you got married. Since then, no fidelity issues beyond the quasi-fantasizing thing. I’m not saying she was June Cleaver, but honestly, no one’s wife is (nor would we want them to be).


First in what world can you call a spouse who lied to you for over a decade anything but a terrible spouse. Nope, nada if you do that in my mind you forfeit the right to call yourself a good one. But lets just go on the premise that it's true then like you said she still married him under false pretenses. She and the marriage are a fraud. I am sure that is how he is feeling and it's well withing his rights. 

I mean how can they resolve that issue before they get married when he didn't even know about it. 



> But IMO it sounds a lot more malicious than it probably was.


Besides the whole multiple lies and ****ing another guy all the while they are supposedly moving towards marriage in good faith, she stole a decade of his life from him because she didn't allow him to make an informed choice. I all the types of cheat there is, this kind is one of the most malicious. The big word is consent. She took that away from him when it came to his future. That's pretty monstrous.



> She did something bad and promised herself she’d be a good and faithful wife. By all accounts she was. Should she have told you? Of course. But she didn’t think of it as lying to you every day for 12 years. She put it behind her and moved on and stayed true to you.


Notice in all those sentences you say she and not they. Marriage needs to always be they. Again that illustrates the point. She was a terrible wife and that is why. 

And all of that happened DURING their marriage and only stopped 6 months ago. She only finally gave him his agency back 6 months ago. 

You sell me a painting and tell me it's a Monet and even if I get good use of it and it looks nice in my study, if I got an appraiser to come in and tell me it's a fake all of that good feeling I have about it is going to be lost. I am also going to feel like a got taken. I probably will end up hating that painting because looking at it will just remind me how I was tricked. Not good. 

Or an even better example and @Walloped you should get this being a Mets fan like me. She Bernie Madoff-ed him. Now for a while it was good money but in the end does it matter if now he has to pay the price of knowing his whole marriage was built on lies? It should not be minimized.

As far as the inappropriate stuff with the coworker. Even the OP doesn't minimize it, he has said it's one of the reasons he is more apt to stay. I don't think it's the same as an affair though. Is it cheating? I think it's the kind of thing that the people in the marriage have to decide. Is going to strip clubs cheating? For some yes. Life webcam sites? Flirting? Someone flashing you? For some yes, some no. I would not have it in my marriage. It is certainly was a slippery slope. 

It is also a good illustration that people need to deal with their resentments. OP we suffering from resentment (at what he thought was a kiss) for years. That caused corrosion in their marriage and if all it was was a kiss that he knew the truth about that would have been entirely on him. This is one of the reasons why for OP, R might not be a good idea, I mean he couldn't even deal with a kiss. Now how much worse is it? But that also leads to the idea that maybe part of the problem was that in the back of his mind he knew he didn't have the whole truth and THAT was the crack that lead to leaks in their foundation. This is why I say people with poor boundaries are hard people to be married to. It sets a tone for the entire relationship. Inauthentic people are just hard to have relationships with. They are toxic. 

Finally I think it would be very unwise to think there is no chance she would cheat. First of all how many posts have we seen from BS who was SURE that their WS had changed, learned their lesson, only to find out they did it again even years later. People need to get this, IT'S IN THEIR NATURE! Besides that there are just too many posts from people, who when it comes to having children the spouse is able to overcome their nature and kind of white knuckle it, while being a parent is their primary role. Only to go right back to their ****ty nature when the kids leave home. This seems especially true of mothers, that maternal instinct is a strong thing man. Maybe that is how it would have gone down. 

I personally believe cheating is a character issue not an environmental one. You either have it in you or you don't. OP's wife has it in her. With work and proper boundaries she can keep it in check but she also has to be motivated. It's always a risk for any BS though because lots of times the motivations is the marriage, if you start having problems in the marriage again, LOOK OUT! 

In a perfect world he would be able to easily get the marriage annulled and then he could decide from there if he wants to marry her with all the information he has now.

If the last two posts don't show why W. and I are from two separate universes. It makes sense. By all accounts @Walloped is in a successful R (whatever that is), I think to do that you need to have the kind of magnanimous nature that his post serves to illustrate. I think if you think like I do (and if his posting is any indication OP does) R is very hard and kind of just festers. 

It seems the most important part of R, even more then making peace with your cheating spouse is to make peace with yourself.


----------



## djwind34

Hello Walloped, I've seen your thread over at SI and pleasantly surprised to see you here. I am one of those here who thinks well of SI, some issues sure, but a great resource for both betrayed and wayward. Of course, it doesn't work for all, but thats life. 

Its concerning to see what happened to HTM/CBM at SI is happening here. The focus has been on who she was/did, not who she is/doing now. And the person NOW is fantasizing about his best friend, starting the texting relationship with her babysitter (of the same gender, so now her desire to make people feel good is not limited to the opposite gender) and how she continually disregards HTM's emotional and mental well-being. She thought it'd be rejuvenating to go on a girls trip while his world is melting down? Come on.

HTM, its about your reality NOW. You're dealing with a woman who easily lied to you for years, and once your world blew up, keeps stomping on the pieces rather than help you put them back together. You've asked both here and at SI if you're wrong or overreacting. No, you're not. And deep down you know it.


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## sokillme

djwind34 said:


> HTM, its about your reality NOW. You're dealing with a woman who easily lied to you for years, and once your world blew up, keeps stomping on the pieces rather than help you put them back together. You've asked both here and at SI if you're wrong or overreacting. No, you're not. And deep down you know it.



QFT, great wife my ass.


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## sokillme

Whose worse is not the point anyway. All OP need and what what we should be doing here is, helping him figure out is she safe and then can he live with it enough to have a good life. I would say the same for her when it comes to his shenanigans.


----------



## faithfulman

Walloped said:


> HTM,
> What your wife did was prior to your M and should have been resolved before you got married. *Since then, no fidelity issues beyond the quasi-fantasizing thing*. I’m not saying she was June Cleaver, but honestly, no one’s wife is (nor would we want them to be). For whatever justification you gave yourself, *in your marriage*, *you crossed a line she never crossed by having inappropriate contact with your coworker*. Of course, you have to resolve that she lied to you about what she did prior to your marriage and therefore you were married under false pretenses. *But IMO it sounds a lot more malicious than it probably was. She did something bad and promised herself she’d be a good and faithful wife. By all accounts she was.* Should she have told you? Of course. But she didn’t think of it as lying to you every day for 12 years. She put it behind her and moved on and stayed true to you. I am not excusing her behavior or minimizing your right to be rocked by this revelation. Just framing it differently.


She was not a faithful wife. And she was lying to HTM constantly for 12 years.

He asked her many times over and she lied.

Not only that, maybe you have not read this part of the story, but she had inappropriate interactions with another man after lying to HTM, where she actually told that man the truth about her cheating!

And she brought this man into her life and her family's life for years afterward!

So while their two families were interacting, this other man knew HTM's wife had cheated on him. She showed the random guy more respect. By keeping this man around with knowledge of her behavior she increased her disrespect to HTM.

That shared secret is a kind of intimacy that she granted Mr. Random but denied HTM. It's gross.

I don't know if "malicious" is the right word. She probably didn't do anything with anger or desire to hurt him in her heart.

But what she did was incredibly selfish, callous, thoughtless, hurtful, and damaging.

And I think it is soooo far out in left field to compare HTM's transgression, 10 years later after his wife's lies had been eating at him, a transgression that did not approach ****ing and sucking another person, doing this purposefully multiple times during a committed relationship, then lying about it to selfishly keep her relationship enter a marriage under false pretenses, taking away his agency, looking into his face every time he asks and not telling the truth.

This is just false equivalency.


----------



## faithfulman

sokillme said:


> It is also a good illustration that people need to deal with their resentments. *OP we suffering from resentment (at what he thought was a kiss) for years.* That caused corrosion in their marriage and if all it was was a kiss that he knew the truth about that would have been entirely on him. This is one of the reasons why for OP, R might not be a good idea, *I mean he couldn't even deal with a kiss*. Now how much worse is it? But that also leads to the idea that maybe part of the problem was that in the back of his mind he knew he didn't have the whole truth and THAT was the crack that lead to leaks in their foundation. This is why I say people with poor boundaries are hard people to be married to. It sets a tone for the entire relationship. Inauthentic people are just hard to have relationships with. They are toxic.



What is pretty obvious to me is that HTM always knew in his gut that it was more than "just a kiss". Or else he would not have kept asking about it.

So what he was dealing with was more than just a kiss, it was her lying about it and minimizing.


----------



## Loveshorror

I feel like I am on crazy pills and this place has become SI. People are telling him his feelings should have been resolved 12 years ago, when he only found out 5 months ago?! And the crush on his BFF and babysitter flirtation is just avoiding “June Cleaver” syndrome? Y’all are being taken in by his wife’s writings skills. The same wife who admitted to leaving things out. And wtf she has been the better spouse in marriage- no. She doesn’t get it.

HTM - sokillme is spot on. Quit trying to referee her behavior and act.


----------



## Walloped

faithfulman said:


> She was not a faithful wife. And she was lying to HTM constantly for 12 years.
> 
> He asked her many times over and she lied.
> 
> Not only that, maybe you have not read this part of the story, but she had inappropriate interactions with another man after lying to HTM, where she actually told that man the truth about her cheating!
> 
> And she brought this man into her life and her family's life for years afterward!
> 
> So while their two families were interacting, this other man knew HTM's wife had cheated on him. She showed the random guy more respect. By keeping this man around with knowledge of her behavior she increased her disrespect to HTM.
> 
> That shared secret is a kind of intimacy that she granted Mr. Random but denied HTM. It's gross.
> 
> I don't know if "malicious" is the right word. She probably didn't do anything with anger or desire to hurt him in her heart.
> 
> But what she did was incredibly selfish, callous, thoughtless, hurtful, and damaging.
> 
> And I think it is soooo far out in left field to compare HTM's transgression, 10 years later after his wife's lies had been eating at him, a transgression that did not approach ****ing and sucking another person, doing this purposefully multiple times during a committed relationship, then lying about it to selfishly keep her relationship enter a marriage under false pretenses, taking away his agency, looking into his face every time he asks and not telling the truth.
> 
> This is just false equivalency.


You’re right - I hadn’t read the whole story and didn’t read any of her posts. 

I wasn’t making a comparison between the two behaviors. Nor was I minimizing hers at all. But there’s a lot to untangle here. 

Anytime someone lies they take away the other person’s agency. In this case it was whether he would have married her or not. Honestly, we have no clue what he would have done and frankly, neither does he. Because that’s not how it played out. He has every right to be pissed about it though and to D his wife. But that doesn’t seem to be what he wants. And it does him no favors to minimize what he did either or to make a comparison that it was nothing in the face of what she did. Because then you are legitimizing cheating and are left with arguing over the degree to how far someone goes before you call foul.

Did she cheat prior to getting married? Yes
Did she cheat since? No (of course you don’t get brownie points for keeping your legs closed while married, but for those to whom marriage vows matter, it is a distinction)
Did she lie to him about what she did over the course of their marriage? Yes
Would he have dumped her? Who knows?
Did he behave inappropriately with another woman while married? Yes
Does he want to D his wife? No

So now what? Venting does not help. There are decisions to be made and actions to be taken based on those decisions. But this limbo thing does nothing to help him move forward one way or the other. I don’t care which one he chooses, D or R. But choose one, act and make it happen.


----------



## Walloped

One addition: I just saw now that he had continuously asked his wife about what happened then and she lied regularly. I was under the mistaken impression that she lied way back when and all was quiet until recently. Hence, more of an omission thing than lying year after year.

*HTM - my apologies.*

Please consider my prior posts with that impression in mind. I have a different stance now for understanding that. Again, apologies for not checking the whole story before posting.

Edited to add: Thanks @sokillme for your prior post highlighting this.


----------



## Blondilocks

He can make up a list of pros and cons of whether he would be better off with her or without her. Whatever he decides, he needs to work on himself so that he improves his communication and problem solving skills. He needs to take responsibility for the fact that he deliberately accepted her lies.

Just as he is not the shy, socially inept person he was when he met her, she is not the so-called party girl she was when she met him.

BTW, I don't read her writings on SI, anymore and don't even read his because when it came out that he had inappropriate actions at work he lost my sympathy. It's nothing more than rolling around in the mud, now.


----------



## faithfulman

Walloped said:


> You’re right - I hadn’t read the whole story and didn’t read any of her posts.
> 
> I wasn’t making a comparison between the two behaviors. Nor was I minimizing hers at all. But there’s a lot to untangle here.


I really don't think there is that much to untangle. Over the course of their relationship-then-marriage, HTM's wife has physically cheated, lied to him about it for over a decade, and since her months long sexual affair, she then engaged in NUMEROUS inappropriate interactions as well.



Walloped said:


> Anytime someone lies they take away the other person’s agency. In this case it was whether he would have married her or not. Honestly, we have no clue what he would have done and frankly, neither does he. Because that’s not how it played out.


Big disagree there.

Nobody can know for sure if HTM would have stayed with his then-fiance had he learned she was ****ing another man, true

But he has said he probably would not have, and she certainly thought he would have left her, or else she would not have held the secret for so long.

By her own admission, she only told him after she felt he would not have left her.

And honestly, in my experience, more people whose fiance is sexually cheating on them will not follow through with marriage. 




Walloped said:


> He has every right to be pissed about it though and to D his wife.


Agree.




Walloped said:


> But that doesn’t seem to be what he wants.


He is struggling. He doesn't know what he wants because of the mind-**** his wife laid on him.



Walloped said:


> And it does him no favors to minimize what he did either or to make a comparison that it was nothing in the face of what she did. Because then you are legitimizing cheating and are left with arguing over the degree to how far someone goes before you call foul.


Okay, here is where we depart ways big time.

First, I am not minimizing or legitimizing what HTM did. It was wrong. And I think he got out of hand, but assuming he is telling the truth, he shut it down. He crossed some lines, but he did not cross THE LINE like his wife did. And he owned up to it waaaaay faster than his wife did. And he did not have to.

And I am sorry Walloped, but there are degrees of bad. I do not take the biblical view that all sins are equal. Robbing a bank is not the same stealing a candy bar.

Additionally, what HTM did does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in the context of her lying and sketchy behavior over years of their relationship. In the context of nagging doubts eating and rotting away at his trust and esteem.

No, she did not make him do it. But the conditions were created by her terrible dishonest behavior.

I don't agree with the purist view I see from so many around here. People are human. People react. People who are hurt lash out.

It doesn't make it right, but since you brought up fouls, in basketball how often does the ref call the retaliation foul but misses the unsportsmanlike play that led to the retaliation? All the time. Sometimes there are several incidents that precipitate the retaliation.

Yes, maybe the player shouldn't have struck back, but people are human and will eventually strike back.



Walloped said:


> 1) Did she cheat prior to getting married? Yes
> 2) Did she cheat since? No (of course you don’t get brownie points for keeping your legs closed while married, but for those to whom marriage vows matter, it is a distinction)
> 3) Did she lie to him about what she did over the course of their marriage? Yes
> 4) Would he have dumped her? Who knows?
> 5) Did he behave inappropriately with another woman while married? Yes
> 6) Does he want to D his wife? No


1) Agree
2) She engaged in lots of inappropriate behavior other than the cheating. I would not describe her as a safe or good wife. And I bet you HTM had indications of that.
3) Agree
4) Let's not act like this is a coin toss. I think there is a pretty strong chance the relationship would have ended. At least that's what HTM's wife felt or else why would she have lied? And she took away his agency and that is another huge betrayal.
5) He did, much later on, after eating her lies for years and still, she behaved inappropriately, AFTER HER PHYSICAL AFFAIR, and multiple times.
6) Undecided, but he appears to be giving divorce some serious thought.



Walloped said:


> So now what? Venting does not help. There are decisions to be made and actions to be taken based on those decisions. But this limbo thing does nothing to help him move forward one way or the other. I don’t care which one he chooses, D or R. But choose one, act and make it happen.


Is he on some kind of clock? His world is rocked.

He is on a roller coaster of emotions, feelings, decisions, and information.

I think he is here to get some help thinking this over. That will help him get out of limbo.

But it may be a while yet. I don't think he has to decide today, or for a while.

And I don't think it helps him to excoriate him over his indiscretion or compare it to his wife's full-on sexual betrayal, years of lying, and continued inappropriate behavior.

If we hold HTM and his wife to a reasonable standard, she has been far far worse.

But maybe he wants to make a go of it. I think he needs to go into that eyes wide open.

So I think it is better to stop castigating him and try to give him some help. At least that is what I am going to do.


----------



## Walloped

@faithfulman - There’s a lot you wrote I agree with and some where we differ. Please my post where I state that to my detriment I didn’t read HTM’s whole story.

To be clear, I’m not castigating him. I do think 5 months is a long time, but his timeline his is own. He does t have to make a decision today but his actions should be toward moving forward and figuring things out. I’m a big proponent of not staying stuck. If that means that he’s still working on getting the whole story so that he can make an informed decision, fine. But if it’s rehashing with no progression then it can be harmful.

I’m not a big fan of the “had I known” argument, because there’s not much you can do about it now. Plus, as much as we like to think we know what we would do, we don’t. I can only go by my experience but for my entire life if you asked me if my wife cheated would I divorce her, my answer would have been “hell yes!” Yet, here I am. And I am acutely aware of the mindf**k after finding out your wife betrayed you. It is even more challenging when you find out years later - there’s a specific forum dedicated to that on SI because it’s such a difficult thing to deal with. I will say again, I am in no way minimizing what she did. She cheated while in a relationship and then lied about it for years. 

I do firmly believe that as bad as what she did was, it in no way justifies, excuses, or rationalizes what he did. I am not making a comparison. They are separate things. But you can’t say it’s only because of what she did or try to frame it by putting it in context. There are tons of people on SI who are a BS and are really struggling because their SO did the same as HTM. If my situation has taught me anything it’s that we all need to own our actions and not put them on anything other than our own s**tty choices. This is not to blast HTM. I think his wife has to be called out for what she did and he needs to be called out for what he did. He seems to be owning up to that. Good. They are separate things and while personally, I agree in terms of “worse” hers definitely qualifies, I’m not making that call and saying well, “if only she hadn’t” or “well, what about her?” I don’t want to get into an Revenge Affair argument (I’ve gotten into so many of those over the years). But my opinion has always been what your spouse does has no bearing on what you do. Your integrity is your own and you are the Master of Your Domain. Full stop. 

In the end, when someone who was supposed to be your life partner and have your back has betrayed you and then lied about it for so long, you question everything in your marriage. What else is a lie? It’s a horrible thought process to go through and I feel for HTM. I don’t know if he should D or R. But my advice is what I tell many people who are struggling. Always make sure you are processing and working toward something. Don’t linger. He’s not on a clock but he should be moving. IC? MC? Something. Anything that will help him think through things more clearly so that he can make an informed decision about the direction his life goes from here.


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## faithfulman

Walloped said:


> @faithfulman - There’s a lot you wrote I agree with and some where we differ. Please my post where I state that to my detriment I didn’t read HTM’s whole story.
> 
> To be clear, I’m not castigating him. I do think 5 months is a long time, but his timeline his is own. He does t have to make a decision today but his actions should be toward moving forward and figuring things out. I’m a big proponent of not staying stuck. If that means that he’s still working on getting the whole story so that he can make an informed decision, fine. But if it’s rehashing with no progression then it can be harmful.
> 
> I’m not a big fan of the “had I known” argument, because there’s not much you can do about it now. Plus, as much as we like to think we know what we would do, we don’t. I can only go by my experience but for my entire life if you asked me if my wife cheated would I divorce her, my answer would have been “hell yes!” Yet, here I am. And I am acutely aware of the mindf**k after finding out your wife betrayed you. It is even more challenging when you find out years later - there’s a specific forum dedicated to that on SI because it’s such a difficult thing to deal with. I will say again, I am in no way minimizing what she did. She cheated while in a relationship and then lied about it for years.
> 
> *I do firmly believe that as bad as what she did was, it in no way justifies, excuses, or rationalizes what he did. I am not making a comparison. They are separate things. But you can’t say it’s only because of what she did or try to frame it by putting it in context. There are tons of people on SI who are a BS and are really struggling because their SO did the same as HTM. If my situation has taught me anything it’s that we all need to own our actions and not put them on anything other than our own s**tty choices. This is not to blast HTM. I think his wife has to be called out for what she did and he needs to be called out for what he did. He seems to be owning up to that. Good. They are separate things and while personally, I agree in terms of “worse” hers definitely qualifies, I’m not making that call and saying well, “if only she hadn’t” or “well, what about her?” I don’t want to get into an Revenge Affair argument (I’ve gotten into so many of those over the years). But my opinion has always been what your spouse does has no bearing on what you do. Your integrity is your own and you are the Master of Your Domain. Full stop. *
> 
> In the end, when someone who was supposed to be your life partner and have your back has betrayed you and then lied about it for so long, you question everything in your marriage. What else is a lie? It’s a horrible thought process to go through and I feel for HTM. I don’t know if he should D or R. But my advice is what I tell many people who are struggling. Always make sure you are processing and working toward something. Don’t linger. He’s not on a clock but he should be moving. IC? MC? Something. Anything that will help him think through things more clearly so that he can make an informed decision about the direction his life goes from here.


I like your style Walloped.

And truth be known I agree with just about everything you wrote.

The part I bolded above - I agree with what you wrote, but the point I am trying to make about his behavior is "I get it", because he is a human with feelings and flaws and reactions. And I think he is owning it.

I guess I am just less of a purist.

In the "Just Found Out" forum at SI there is a thread where after a terrible betrayal, a woman ran over her husband's bike with her truck. Later she slapped him.

I strongly disagree with these actions, and if it were a man reacting that way, he would be in jail.

A lot of people cheered on her actions. I did not.

But I get it.

I think there is a difference between:

"I did something bad but it is okay because she did something a lot worse"

and

"I did something bad because I thought I would get back at her and it would make me feel better, but I was wrong about that, and I realize it was wrong overall."

That's where I see HTM, as the second quote. And by the way, I don't feel you have been castigating HTM or even really unfair. Your standard is just different than mine.

***

I truly hope that others can stop painting HTM and his wife as equally at fault or equally bad-behaved. Because that is absurd.

I am now going to turn back to helping HTM as best I can.


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## HappenedToMe123

I've got a lot to add later but a couple "housekeeping" items:
1. My wife lied repeatedly about the kiss early on, but I asked a lot less after marriage (once a year-ish) then stopped asking completely once we had kids 4ish years ago.
2. I am not sure if I would have stayed with her. I think I would have broken up with her if I knew the whole truth when I caught her. But if she confessed while we were engaged, I don't think I would have called it off. Not sure though.
3. I am not lying about my story. The girl was younger than me (late 20s) and enjoyed flirting with me I think because I am married and she liked being "bad". Her exposing herself the first two times was in a "joking" manner (I know, real funny) and not romantically, we were just friends behaving badly in my eyes (I know how ****ed up this is, I'm just saying how I felt at the time). The last time she came onto me was aggressively and romantically, which was new, and it made it clear to me that I might actually do something physical with her if I didn't stop seeing her, and so I cut her off completely. I do think this was closest to my wife's UK boyfriend thing - ****ty boundaries to be sure, but at least some boundary existed. 

Anyway, I really just want support with my current situation. I'm hurting, I'm uncertain in my marriage, and I came here for advice from a different group. I know it's selfish to ask you to put aside my own indiscretion, but can you, at least for now?


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## HappenedToMe123

I'll add also as a reminder, it was me asking about the kiss at our anniversary dinner that prompted her confession. She says she couldn't stand to lie anymore once she realized I never truly let it go. I believe her, and I also believe it was selfish guilt-release at a time where she finally felt safe coming clean.

And yes, the "kiss" haunted me because I always suspected there was more to it. At this point I honestly wish I just let it go.


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## syhoybenden

Dear HappenedToMe123/CBM, ... 12 years. 

12 years of living in deceit. 12 years of living a lie.

12 years you might well have been better off without.

Now, do you really want to up the ante to 13 years, ... 14, ....15? Or more?

Try to be aware of and not get sucked in by the "sunk cost fallacy".


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## Walloped

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Anyway, I really just want support with my current situation. I'm hurting, I'm uncertain in my marriage, and I came here for advice from a different group. I know it's selfish to ask you to put aside my own indiscretion, but can you, at least for now?


HTM - Fair enough. 

So to recap, your wife cheated while you were together before you got married and then lied repeatedly over the course of your M. Since about 4 years ago neither you nor she brought it up until 5 months ago when she finally came clean after you asked again. So...besides the cheating, she took away your ability to make an informed choice about whether you should marry her or not. Maybe you wouldn’t have married her. Maybe you would have broken up and then gotten back together. Who knows? The key part is that you had the wool pulled over your eyes going into the marriage. And then throughout, she lied to you about it.

So, what we have is someone who cheated and lied about it. :surprise: I’m shocked, shocked I tell you. Cheaters lie. Who knew? I’m not making fun (okay, a little) but this is normal. It’s not okay, buts normal. Just like when you lash out at her. It’s normal. Of course you’re in pain. Your world just got upended. It will take a long time for that pain to subside. What I don’t want you to do is to wallow in that pain. That’s a dark spiral downward that doesn’t end well. That’s why I’m telling you to be active about moving forward via having a game plan in mind. Venting is fine as far as that goes, but it doesn’t get you anywhere in the long run.

Look, you know the options in front of you. SI folks are more likely to say R. TAM folks are more likely to say D (see the post above for Exhibit A). The path you choose is irrelevant. What matters is that you choose it, for the right reasons, and that you change your current situation. Each option has its pros and cons. 

So what are you looking for at this point? 
What are your goals? 
How are you interacting with your wife now? 
What, if anything, are you looking for from her? 
Do you feel as if you know everything or are you still peeling that onion? 
What other concerns do you have? Separate A related issues from M related issues - this is not about how she burns dinner or how you don’t take out the trash. 
What are you doing to heal yourself or are you expecting your wife to do that for you?
What actions are your taking for her personal growth?

We can commiserate and “support” you by calling her names or validating how you’re feeling, tell you to burn the b***ch and cut her out of your life, etc., but none of that is news to you and actually helps you. All that does is keep you mired in self-pity and anger. Healthy anger is good. Stagnation is bad.

Think about it.


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## HappenedToMe123

It's not really a sunk cost, we have kids. That changes things. Plus, the 12 years have been mostly good. In the @sokillme analogy, my Monet forgery has made me happy and throwing it out would leave me with an empty wall and a need to deal with the con artist for 14~ more years anyway. Am I better off forgiving the con artist and enjoying the painting? This analogy doesn't really work anymore but you get my conundrum.


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## AttaBoy

CBM, I have been following yours and your WW over on SI from the beginning. I'd be interested to know the questions you asked on her poly. That result is the only thing making me doubt that she is still TTing you. I believe she has more to reveal about her AP encounters. It may amount to small details, but it's information she has that she has entrenched in the "Can't remember" category. And I think at the point you see omissions as lies. 

Case in point is the car encounter. She knows if the AP finished. She has to. My wife had a similar thing happen before we met, and she lied to me early on because it fell into the "None of my business" category. It was many years ago, and now in more recent conversations she revealed that more happened and it happened faster than I could have imagined. She didn't remember, until she did. One-time encounters tend to be memorable unless their are so many the run together.


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## HappenedToMe123

Thanks @Walloped. I think that's what I need to hear, and you gave me some clear direction and action items, which I appreciate.

My wife gave me a pretty profound apology after the **** yesterday. She acknowledged how selfish asking me that was and told me she is really trying to search within herself as to why she can't seem to find her empathy before saying something like that. She said she did think before asking, but the reasons her mind came up with as to why I might be upset were things like how much it cost, me having to watch kids, etc. I asked her why she never had the thought of "I have torn my husband's world apart and asking for a separate vacation right now is incredibly insensitive". She has no answer, and it frustrates her and depresses her because I told her it's her inability to think of me with empathy that is going to make me leave. She is in IC and she's going to try to address this specifically in her next session.


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## Lostinthought61

honestly you glutton for punishment...i have just finished your entire thread on SI, and you either have no f'ing backbone or you are willing to take any morsel of crumbs your wife leaves on the ground. enough is enough, pull the trigger on this marriage and see how she reacts, for god-sake stop cuddling her, or turn in your man card.


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## HappenedToMe123

AttaBoy said:


> CBM, I have been following yours and your WW over on SI from the beginning. I'd be interested to know the questions you asked on her poly. That result is the only thing making me doubt that she is still TTing you. I believe she has more to reveal about her AP encounters. It may amount to small details, but it's information she has that she has entrenched in the "Can't remember" category. And I think at the point you see omissions as lies.
> 
> Case in point is the car encounter. She knows if the AP finished. She has to. My wife had a similar thing happen before we met, and she lied to me early on because it fell into the "None of my business" category. It was many years ago, and now in more recent conversations she revealed that more happened and it happened faster than I could have imagined. She didn't remember, until she did. One-time encounters tend to be memorable unless their are so many the run together.



She was only asked two questions, which was really just one question asked two different ways "since 2006, have you had any sexual contact, touching, kissing, sex, of any kind, with any man beside your husband?" The examiner told me this would get me the clearest result and it was really the only answer I cared about. According to the examiner, she passed with flying colors.

Her lack of memory around the car BJ is really frustrating to me, but I have pretty much let it go at this point. I actually do believe her as she has been very open and detailed in whatever else she can remember. My only remembers them rubbing on each other, she says she's still not even sure she gave him a BJ, she just "thinks she did", but she has no memory of him finishing or her taking off/putting on pants. My guess is she swallowed, which she is either hiding from me (it's one of the few things she doesn't do for me) or has just blocked out. Either way, it really doesn't matter too much to me, in the big picture of her A this part doesn't bother me that much. 

I ask her almost nightly, "is there anything else, big or small, that you are hiding? Or any facts you want to change?" She has answered no to that for the past two months or so, and firmly. She has read a ton on SI, about 10 books, a bunch of articles, etc, and she is well aware of the damage that more TT would have on me. I have to believe her, because at this point the only other option is that she is a sociopath, and I really don't think that. 

I think she's mostly told the truth, and mostly done a remarkable job of remembering things from 12 years ago. I think she's remembered more than I would have. I think the gaps in her memory is because her whole affair, which amounts to 5 encounters, probably all happened within 6 weeks or less. I could see how it would run together. 

I don't know - maybe I'm just making excuses for her and seeing what I want to see again. I feel like I can trust my judgement on this though.


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## HappenedToMe123

Lostinthought61 said:


> honestly you glutton for punishment...i have just finished your entire thread on SI, and you either have no f'ing backbone or you are willing to take any morsel of crumbs your wife leaves on the ground. enough is enough, pull the trigger on this marriage and see how she reacts, for gos sake sop cuddling her, or turn in your man card.


Yeah, sometimes I feel like that. Other times I don't. I absolutely don't feel like I did 12 years ago - I don't have the fear of being single and a "failure" like I did back then. On the contrary, this itch I have to be single is actually make R harder for me. I can see how you would think what you think though, I don't blame you for it, but there's a lot more to us then what exists on the internet.


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## Lostinthought61

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Yeah, sometimes I feel like that. Other times I don't. I absolutely don't feel like I did 12 years ago - I don't have the fear of being single and a "failure" like I did back then. On the contrary, this itch I have to be single is actually make R harder for me. I can see how you would think what you think though, I don't blame you for it, but there's a lot more to us then what exists on the internet.


i agree there is a lot more to you and you have been more than fair with her, but the human condition can only take so much crap, when you realize you passing on living a more enriching life with out her...and it's not even close to failure...you are just deciding that you respect yourself more than you respect her. she has never been honest and that should tell you something. cut your losses, cut her out of your life. I do not even know your wife and i hate her...i'm sorry.


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## HappenedToMe123

One of the things I struggle with is that to D is to take specific action, but to R just feels like a continual drifting, with no specific action, just waiting for the pain to dissipate and to feel happy again. @Walloped, you can probably speak to this better than most - what specific actions did you take when you decided to R? Did you overnight change your mindset towards your wife and your marriage? 

I do want to R, but I guess what I struggle with is HOW to R. I just feel like I keep waiting for my wife to **** up, and that if she avoids ****ing up we will R, but if not we will D. It's unfair to her because asking for perfection is obviously a pretty impossible standard. Any thoughts or advice here?


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## HappenedToMe123

Lostinthought61 said:


> i agree there is a lot more to you and you have been more than fair with her, but the human condition can only take so much crap, when you realize you passing on living a more enriching life with out her...and it's not even close to failure...you are just deciding that you respect yourself more than you respect her. she has never been honest and that should tell you something. cut your losses, cut her out of your life. I do not even know your wife and i hate her...i'm sorry.


Hah, it's OK, the version of her that only exists as a lying cheating manipulative ***** is pretty hate-able. I make it worse by using the internet to vent about the **** about her that I hate. It's not close to a fair portrait, of course, but that's how it goes. 

She is also a kind person, she admires me and shows it to me, she supported me when I started my business and believed in me, she shares my taste in movies, music, tv, she's a great friend to her friends and really cares about other people, she's a patient mom and we share an overall parenting philosophy so we feel like a great team, she's great in bed, and I still find her incredibly attractive. All those are things I love about her, not necessarily in order of importance. 

On the other hand, she has used me as an emotional punching bag in the past, she can be selfish, she speaks without thinking, she cares too much what other people think, she can be passive-aggressive and lash out, she is a terrible communicator, she seeks attention and validation and wants everyone to like her, she has had poor boundaries and she puts my needs and feelings second to hers very often. And she cheated and lied and manipulated me for years. Those are the things I really don't like.


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## sokillme

Lostinthought61 said:


> honestly you glutton for punishment...i have just finished your entire thread on SI, and you either have no f'ing backbone or you are willing to take any morsel of crumbs your wife leaves on the ground. enough is enough, pull the trigger on this marriage and see how she reacts, for gos sake sop cuddling her, or turn in your man card.


I wouldn't say it this way but he's not wrong. I mean I remember reading one of your posts where you want her to beg for you, well if you are constantly standing next to her saying, "you hurt me, um hello can't you see you hurt me, SEE ME!, acknowledge my pain!" every time she ****s up why would she think to beg for you. It's pretty obvious you are desperate for anything she gives you. 

This is a pretty consistent with all people who get cheated on. There is a power imbalance set up with the BS much more desperate for the WS then the other way around. The WS knows this, they are not stupid, actually that is why they picked that BS in the first place. That kind of dynamic lets them act out without consequences. It's a symbiotic relationship. 

YOU NEED TO DISTANCE YOURSELF FROM YOUR WIFE. You need to stop looking for her acknowledgment to make things right or just make you feel good. You need to stop leading her to water so to speak. Finally you need to be completely self sufficient when it comes to that. The only person who you should need to make you feel acceptance is yourself. 

My response to that whole apology would have been. "OK" and I would have went out or left the room. If she had pushed it, asking why you are being so cold, I would have said, "I am tired of having the same discussion over and over." Your wife needs to see the time for apologies is over, she is blowing it. But you need to see that you DON'T need your wife to acknowledge you pain or even your existence.

You need to be your own man making your own path, now for good. Again it's up to your wife to keep up.


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## Lostinthought61

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Hah, it's OK, the version of her that only exists as a lying cheating manipulative ***** is pretty hate-able. I make it worse by using the internet to vent about the **** about her that I hate. It's not close to a fair portrait, of course, but that's how it goes.
> 
> She is also a kind person, she admires me and shows it to me, she supported me when I started my business and believed in me, she shares my taste in movies, music, tv, she's a great friend to her friends and really cares about other people, she's a patient mom and we share an overall parenting philosophy so we feel like a great team, she's great in bed, and I still find her incredibly attractive. All those are things I love about her, not necessarily in order of importance.
> 
> On the other hand, she has used me as an emotional punching bag in the past, she can be selfish, she speaks without thinking, she cares too much what other people think, she can be passive-aggressive and lash out, she is a terrible communicator, she seeks attention and validation and wants everyone to like her, she has had poor boundaries and she puts my needs and feelings second to hers very often. And she cheated and lied and manipulated me for years. Those are the things I really don't like.


i understand...i am just curious if she has read what people on SI or here have said about her if she would care enough to know what damage she has done. i truly hope the best for you...believe we are in your corner.

PS even the most beautiful woman in the world who cheat is ugly from the inside out. and no amount of lipstick can make her attractive.


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## Walloped

sokillme said:


> This is a pretty consistent with all people who get cheated on. There is a power imbalance set up with the BS much more desperate for the WS then the other way around. The WS knows this, they are not stupid, actually that is why they picked that BS in the first place. That kind of dynamic lets them act out without consequences. It's a symbiotic relationship.


Well, I obviously disagree with this pretty strongly. Not every BS acts this way. In fact, most of those I’ve seen don’t. And to say, in my case for example, that my wife somehow “picked” me 30 some odd years ago because she perceived a power imbalance while we were teenagers and held onto the idea that she could then manipulate me about 25 years later if she decided to have an affair, is ludicrous. 

However, for the BS who has codependency issues and looks to their WS to validate them, then yes. This dynamic can occur and it’s important the BS protects against it. 



sokillme said:


> YOU NEED TO DISTANCE YOURSELF FROM YOUR WIFE. You need to stop looking for her acknowledgment to make things right or just make you feel good. You need to stop leading her to water so to speak. Finally you need to be completely self sufficient when it comes to that. The only person who you should need to make you feel acceptance is yourself.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. What he’s suggesting is what SI calls the 180. To be clear, it’s not a tool to trick your wife or be passive aggressive. It’s meant for you to distance yourself from her so you can become *independently emotionally healthy*. Go find activities that you like and do them. Go hunting, fishing, the gym, biking, basketball, golf, whatever. Do not engage in the drama your wife is sucking you into. You don’t need her to validate your pain. She’s the one who caused it! If you need to unload, do it here or on SI, or tell your best buddy. Stop looking to her to heal you. You heal you. Let her know you need space and tell her you expect her to respect that. The goal is a) you’ll realize you can be happy from within and not reliant upon her, and b) that once detached, you can make a clear-headed decision about the future of your M. And if you decide to R, it’s not because you’re codependent but because you are choosing to be with her from a place of strength.


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## sokillme

Walloped said:


> Well, I obviously disagree with this pretty strongly. Not every BS acts this way. In fact, most of those I’ve seen don’t. And to say, in my case for example, that my wife somehow “picked” me 30 some odd years ago because she perceived a power imbalance while we were teenagers and held onto the idea that she could then manipulate me about 25 years later if she decided to have an affair, is ludicrous.


Your right I shouldn't have wrote all. Lots, not almost all. Also the power imbalance may not be there in the beginning but often times it's already there at the point where they cheat. I do think it's a there a lot more then people see though. 

I think that it's pretty clear that lots of WS are pretty confident that if they cheat and get caught their BS won't pull the trigger, and they are right. And I think a lifetime of failed s***-tests just reinforces that. The WS has spent years of pushing limits, or building up unrealistic resentments and entitlements. Infidelity is just the culmination of all that. That is part of the imbalance that I am talking about. 

When you are talking about Codependent relationships, they almost all eventually bread entitlement. Many many BS are not independently emotionally healthy, and there is a certain type of person who picks them because of this fact. 

In fact if you think of dating like a proving ground then it makes sense. Someone who is independently emotionally healthy is just not going to put up with a lot of the crap that many of these WS do even in dating. So it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. It really takes someone who is not emotionally healthy to end up with someone like how they are.

That's what the book Human Magnet Syndrome is about.

I agree with the your reasons for the 180, but there is also another reason. It's attractive. This may not be the thing to say in polite society but I still thing the majority of women are attracted to strength. Part of that is emotional strength. Even the women who say they want men who are in touch with their feelings. What they want is men who are emotionally intelligent, not emotionally needy.

One of OP's posts was about how he feels his wife was never really that attracted to him when they were dating or at least as attractive to him as she was these other guys. I get the sense that he still kind of feels like that. He needs to carve his own path because I think she will respond to that. I think from both or their posts this women likes to chase a little bit. Frankly I think most women are attracted to men like that. They don't want to feel responsible for their man's emotional health because they have other things to worry about, like kids. Even if they don't have kids biological evolution has set it up that way. (I know some people's heads are exploding and yes I a generalizing). Frankly no one likes an emotionally needy man. Men don't like it either. 

Becoming emotionally strong will only do OP a world of good in whatever he decides. It's kind of the next step in his new found confidence that comes with age and success.


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## Rubix Cubed

Blondilocks said:


> Whatever he decides, he needs to work on himself so that he improves his communication and problem solving skills. * He needs to take responsibility for the fact that he deliberately accepted her lies.*


 @Blondilocks,
Can you help me out with the bolded statement?
How does the victim of a lie take responsibility for believing it?
His gut told him there was more, are you saying he should have split with her over that feeling alone, and that her continual affirmations of having told him everything are all his fault for believing?
If so I think that is complete, unadulterated bull****. I hope I'm misunderstanding it.


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## farsidejunky

HappenedToMe123 said:


> One of the things I struggle with is that to D is to take specific action, but to R just feels like a continual drifting, with no specific action, just waiting for the pain to dissipate and to feel happy again. @Walloped, you can probably speak to this better than most - what specific actions did you take when you decided to R? Did you overnight change your mindset towards your wife and your marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> I do want to R, but I guess what I struggle with is HOW to R. I just feel like I keep waiting for my wife to **** up, and that if she avoids ****ing up we will R, but if not we will D. It's unfair to her because asking for perfection is obviously a pretty impossible standard. Any thoughts or advice here?


R starts with your healing, combined with her concrete actions to make herself a safe partner (the jury still being out on the latter).

Your healing starts by...

(Broken Record Here)

...removing yourself from the drama triangle and dealing with your codependency. 


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't say it this way but he's not wrong. I mean I remember reading one of your posts where you want her to beg for you, well if you are constantly standing next to her saying, "you hurt me, um hello can't you see you hurt me, SEE ME!, acknowledge my pain!" every time she ****s up why would she think to beg for you. It's pretty obvious you are desperate for anything she gives you.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a pretty consistent with all people who get cheated on. There is a power imbalance set up with the BS much more desperate for the WS then the other way around. The WS knows this, they are not stupid, actually that is why they picked that BS in the first place. That kind of dynamic lets them act out without consequences. It's a symbiotic relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> YOU NEED TO DISTANCE YOURSELF FROM YOUR WIFE. You need to stop looking for her acknowledgment to make things right or just make you feel good. You need to stop leading her to water so to speak. Finally you need to be completely self sufficient when it comes to that. The only person who you should need to make you feel acceptance is yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> My response to that whole apology would have been. "OK" and I would have went out or left the room. If she had pushed it, asking why you are being so cold, I would have said, "I am tired of having the same discussion over and over." Your wife needs to see the time for apologizes is over, she is blowing it. But you need to see that you DON'T need your wife to acknowledge you pain or even your existence.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to be your own man making your own path, now for good. Again it's up to your wife to keep up.


QFT.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## faithfulman

HTM, I get that you want to R. You love your wife, you have a wonderful family.

I am glad you gave us a rundown of positive things about her. It makes her into a real person and not just a conniving liar.

I can't speak to all of those positives, but I think these are the personality traits you will have to accept should you decide to R:

1) She cheated on you because she wanted the other guy physically. I could say this in more crude ways, but you understand what I mean.
2) Your wife likes side action. Whether that is cheating or flirting, she is prone to wanting SOMETHING - not necessarily screwing someone - outside of her relationship. She is very dude-like in that way.
3) She is selfish. Maybe not in all ways and all aspects of her personality, but she is willing to engage in activity that is very hurtful to you in order to satisfy her base wants. She is willing to put her wants ahead of your well being in many important cases.
4) She has a deceitful aspect to her personality, with a "What HTM doesn't know won't hurt him" outlook.
5) She is a liar. Maybe not always and about everything, but lying is a quick fallback for her, one of her go-to strategies
6) She lacks empathy and in many contexts probably is not capable of truly thinking of her partner first, at least not naturally.

You have to consider all of that.

You have to consider that thinking about the mind-movies of what she did with "the guy" will be with you for a long time, and that it's likely she will never tell you the whole truth about that. You may also consider what she has wanted to do with other guys in the context of what she did.

Consider that after aaaallll this time, she still doesn't truly get it. She lacks empathy and understanding of how to be a good safe partner.

I think it will be very difficult for you to ever trust her. Not trusting your mate eats at you, as you know.

That's why even though you say you wish you had never asked or found out, you also know that it would have gnawed at you forever if you didn't.

***

I hate to see families break up. It makes me sad. I hope you can keep your family. It will be difficult to deal with what you have learned about your wife and her ways.

I've read your wife's stuff, though I admit I cannot read her entire posts because between her writing and the psycho-babble bull**** that flies around the wayward forum I want to tear my eyeballs out.

I wonder if she just came clean and said the following how you might act, because this is the truth:

- She ****ed the other guy because she wanted to.
- She lied to you because she wanted to keep you and didn't want to face the repercussions of her actions.
- She engaged in the inappropriate interactions afterward because she wanted to.
- She was just ****ing selfish. No other real reason.

At least you would be working from a baseline of true honesty.

*RECONCILIATION CONDITIONS*

If it were me, I would require the following to consider reconciliation:

- She stop lying about not remembering this or that about her sexual activities. She tells the truth about everything they did, whether it is anal, swallowing, S&M, whatever.
- If she has denied this activity to you and you desire it, then it is on the table when you want it.
- She cannot keep anything from you ever, all accounts, electronics, - WHATEVER!! - are yours to see when you say so.

And then I might consider it.

***

*COUNSELING*

One more thing, about counseling. People are always like "Counseling - counseling!" as if it is an antibiotic that can cure cheaters of being selfish liars.

I find that most counselors are worthless excuse-makers who try to make the person in front of them not feel bad about the bad things they did.

And most of the people sitting in front of a counselor lie, mis-characterize, and minimize their behavior so they can walk out feeling better about themselves.

I have seen this with 4 out of 4 counselors that I have been privy to, and heard about a lot more.

Holding people accountable is uncomfortable and not a good business model. People come back with some bull**** about "validation" instead of just saying. "I did it because I wanted to and I didn't think you'd find out."

So you have to hold your wife accountable and she has to hold herself accountable to you and her. A counselor is not going to do it.

Good luck.


----------



## Blondilocks

Rubix Cubed said:


> @Blondilocks,
> Can you help me out with the bolded statement?
> *How does the victim of a lie take responsibility for believing it?*
> His gut told him there was more, are you saying he should have split with her over that feeling alone, and that her continual affirmations of having told him everything are all his fault for believing?
> If so I think that is complete, unadulterated bull****. I hope I'm misunderstanding it.


That's just it, RC. He didn't* believe* her lies - he accepted them. If he had believed them, he wouldn't have continued to have that nagging doubt and kept questioning her over the course of 8 years. Four years before marriage and four years after. 

He had his reasons for doing that which didn't serve him well. 

Even if she had been telling the truth, the fact that he had doubts as to their veracity would have been enough for him to say "I don't think I'm getting the whole story so I'm out of here". You can't have a good marriage without trust and the fact is he didn't trust her. His gut was spot on and he ignored it.

I know you know exactly what I'm talking about.


----------



## MattMatt

@HappenedToMe123 There are a lot of people here on TAM/CWI willing to offer you empathy, sympathy and advice.

A word of caution, some people here might want to live or relive their own %%****ed-up life vicariously, through your life. Trying to put right the mistakes they made by telling you how to live your life.

It is perhaps akin to a war games enthusiast playing great wars of history. But in this case their roleplaying risks potentially damaging your life.

%%Let's face it, if we folks here hadn't had a ****ed-up life to some extent or another, why would we be on TAM in the CWI section? 

Take advice but sift it carefully before applying it. 

Counselling is going to be helpful one way or another. 

Your wife's lack of empathy, what is the root cause of this? Can it be identified and treated?


----------



## HappenedToMe123

> I wonder if she just came clean and said the following how you might act, because this is the truth:
> 
> - She ****ed the other guy because she wanted to.
> - She lied to you because she wanted to keep you and didn't want to face the repercussions of her actions.
> - She engaged in the inappropriate interactions afterward because she wanted to.
> - She was just ****ing selfish. No other real reason.
> 
> At least you would be working from a baseline of true honesty.


She didn't say this right away of course, but she has gotten to the point of basically admitted all of the above. She isn't delusional about her issues. The main ongoing issue is her giving herself too much credit for intentions ("I didn't mean to hurt you", "I wasn't meaning to come on the babysitter, just compliment her", etc) and not enough accountability for actions. But she is working on it, it's her main focus in IC and she seems to have an IC that really does hold her accountable and doesn't just help her feel better about ****ty choices.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

Blondilocks said:


> That's just it, RC. He didn't* believe* her lies - he accepted them. If he had believed them, he wouldn't have continued to have that nagging doubt and kept questioning her over the course of 8 years. Four years before marriage and four years after.
> 
> He had his reasons for doing that which didn't serve him well.
> 
> Even if she had been telling the truth, the fact that he had doubts as to their veracity would have been enough for him to say "I don't think I'm getting the whole story so I'm out of here". You can't have a good marriage without trust and the fact is he didn't trust her. His gut was spot on and he ignored it.
> 
> I know you know exactly what I'm talking about.


I actually DID believe her, I always thought it was my own insecurities that caused the nagging doubt. Of course I believed her, she told me the same story time and time again, even her friend at the party with her the night I caught the text backed up her story (she lied to the friend too, the friend was not an enabler. Either way, she's long gone from our life.)

You seem to really have an agenda out for me, I'm sorry if I trigger some past pain for you.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

Walloped said:


> I agree with this wholeheartedly. What he’s suggesting is what SI calls the 180. To be clear, it’s not a tool to trick your wife or be passive aggressive. It’s meant for you to distance yourself from her so you can become *independently emotionally healthy*. Go find activities that you like and do them. Go hunting, fishing, the gym, biking, basketball, golf, whatever. Do not engage in the drama your wife is sucking you into. You don’t need her to validate your pain. She’s the one who caused it! If you need to unload, do it here or on SI, or tell your best buddy. Stop looking to her to heal you. You heal you. Let her know you need space and tell her you expect her to respect that. The goal is a) you’ll realize you can be happy from within and not reliant upon her, and b) that once detached, you can make a clear-headed decision about the future of your M. And if you decide to R, it’s not because you’re codependent but because you are choosing to be with her from a place of strength.


The issue for me right now is I'm a tax accountant in tax season and have very little time to do much of anything but work. I have been dedicating 2-3 days a week to the gym and I have been making a concerted effort to be more independent on the weekends, but we have two young kids so its tough. After tax season I have planned a short trip away to visit family by myself, and then after that I have been thinking about starting an in-home separation, but not sure if I really want to do that or not.


----------



## Blondilocks

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I actually DID believe her, I always thought it was my own insecurities that caused the nagging doubt. Of course I believed her, she told me the same story time and time again, even her friend at the party with her the night I caught the text backed up her story (she lied to the friend too, the friend was not an enabler. Either way, she's long gone from our life.)
> 
> You seem to really have an agenda out for me, I'm sorry if I trigger some past pain for you.


OK. Whatever. I'm outta here.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

MattMatt said:


> @HappenedToMe123 There are a lot of people here on TAM/CWI willing to offer you empathy, sympathy and advice.
> 
> A word of caution, some people here might want to live or relive their own %%****ed-up life vicariously, through your life. Trying to put right the mistakes they made by telling you how to live your life.
> 
> It is perhaps akin to a war games enthusiast playing great wars of history. But in this case their roleplaying risks potentially damaging your life.
> 
> %%Let's face it, if we folks here hadn't had a ****ed-up life to some extent or another, why would we be on TAM in the CWI section?
> 
> Take advice but sift it carefully before applying it.
> 
> Counselling is going to be helpful one way or another.
> 
> *Your wife's lack of empathy, what is the root cause of this? Can it be identified and treated?*


I really appreciate your thoughts. I listen to my own heart and head above and beyond anyone else. I am someone who likes to gather advice and then make my own decision from it. I find other people's perspectives to be very useful, especially when they run counter to my instincts, but I don't act in a way to please others or against my own better judgement. Unlike my wife, I don't overly care what people think of me and I have a lot of confidence in myself when it comes to rational thinking and decision making. 

I bolded your question because it really is the most important piece of our marriage working moving forward, and the answer is that I don't know. My personal thoughts on the root of it is that she has always been beautiful and well-liked and so she never had to find much empathy, people always liked her "by default". This is just my personal theory. As to can it be treated/improved, I am honestly not sure. I would have thought that the current circumstances would have made her find it and stopped doing things like carelessly flirt with the babysitter (by the way, I have 0% suspicion she has any sexual feelings for her, I think it was purely an immature way to interact and try to be "cool" while totally insensitive to the current state of things) and ask about a girl's weekend away. The fact that she is still acting selfishly and without empathy makes me question if she can ever "get there". She tells me how she thinks about me all the time, wants nothing more than to help me heal, and I see her doing the work (reading, therapy), yet her actions keep showing me that she has a long way to go.


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## HappenedToMe123

> 2) Your wife likes side action. Whether that is cheating or flirting, she is prone to wanting SOMETHING - not necessarily screwing someone - outside of her relationship. She is very dude-like in that way.


This is a big concern of mine. Going back to high school/college, my wife was very dude-like in her sexual appetite and willingness to hook up, and that's scary to me because she's not a dude, she's an attractive woman and my wife. But her earlier dalliances, including her affair, seem to come from a place of "I want to use this person to feel good about myself". She always thinks about herself as the user, not as being used. Very dude-like. She thinks of her affair as her using the AP, not the other way around. Her UK day-date she described as her selfishly using him to have a companion, and she knew she was leading him on even though she knew she would not do anything with him physically. Same with the ********* she commiserated with about cheating - she got to use him to offload some of her guilt, while also leading him on and getting attention.

By all measures, this part of her has not shown up in our married years (but the fantasies about my best friend don't help me feel better). What makes me nervous/suspicious is that I find it hard to believe she could be this way for all of our years dating, then just stop cold turkey once we got married. Unless marriage meant a lot more to her than it did to me (which is possible, she was raised religiously and I never was), I can't find a good reason why she would have changed so abruptly. To her credit, she doesn't think she just magically "got better" but instead that circumstances changed as she got older and she no longer had chances to act out in that way. She worked almost exclusively with woman, stopped going out without me, etc. So basically, Boundaries. I think that's the answer, she had involuntarily put up boundaries, and they worked. My hope is that now that she is working on herself AND intentionally creating boundaries, she can be a safe partner for me.


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## MattMatt

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I really appreciate your thoughts. I listen to my own heart and head above and beyond anyone else. I am someone who likes to gather advice and then make my own decision from it. I find other people's perspectives to be very useful, especially when they run counter to my instincts, but I don't act in a way to please others or against my own better judgement. Unlike my wife, I don't overly care what people think of me and I have a lot of confidence in myself when it comes to rational thinking and decision making.
> 
> I bolded your question because it really is the most important piece of our marriage working moving forward, and the answer is that I don't know. My personal thoughts on the root of it is that she has always been beautiful and well-liked and so she never had to find much empathy, people always liked her "by default". This is just my personal theory. As to can it be treated/improved, I am honestly not sure. I would have thought that the current circumstances would have made her find it and stopped doing things like carelessly flirt with the babysitter (by the way, I have 0% suspicion she has any sexual feelings for her, I think it was purely an immature way to interact and try to be "cool" while totally insensitive to the current state of things) and ask about a girl's weekend away. The fact that she is still acting selfishly and without empathy makes me question if she can ever "get there". She tells me how she thinks about me all the time, wants nothing more than to help me heal, and I see her doing the work (reading, therapy), yet her actions keep showing me that she has a long way to go.


Have her checked for being on the ASD spectrum.


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## farsidejunky

This may feel like a distinction without a difference, but there is one good thing about her seeing herself as the 'user' as opposed to 'being used'; it shows she sees herself as the initiator of the action. It shows some semblance of accountability.

If she insisted on seeing it the opposite way, I would not consider reconciliation with her under any circumstance.



HappenedToMe123 said:


> This is a big concern of mine. Going back to high school/college, my wife was very dude-like in her sexual appetite and willingness to hook up, and that's scary to me because she's not a dude, she's an attractive woman and my wife. But her earlier dalliances, including her affair, seem to come from a place of "I want to use this person to feel good about myself". She always thinks about herself as the user, not as being used. Very dude-like. She thinks of her affair as her using the AP, not the other way around. Her UK day-date she described as her selfishly using him to have a companion, and she knew she was leading him on even though she knew she would not do anything with him physically. Same with the ********* she commiserated with about cheating - she got to use him to offload some of her guilt, while also leading him on and getting attention.
> 
> By all measures, this part of her has not shown up in our married years (but the fantasies about my best friend don't help me feel better). What makes me nervous/suspicious is that I find it hard to believe she could be this way for all of our years dating, then just stop cold turkey once we got married. Unless marriage meant a lot more to her than it did to me (which is possible, she was raised religiously and I never was), I can't find a good reason why she would have changed so abruptly. To her credit, she doesn't think she just magically "got better" but instead that circumstances changed as she got older and she no longer had chances to act out in that way. She worked almost exclusively with woman, stopped going out without me, etc. So basically, Boundaries. I think that's the answer, she had involuntarily put up boundaries, and they worked. My hope is that now that she is working on herself AND intentionally creating boundaries, she can be a safe partner for me.


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## HappenedToMe123

farsidejunky said:


> This may feel like a distinction without a difference, but there is one good thing about her seeing herself as the 'user' as opposed to 'being used'; it shows she sees herself as the initiator of the action. It shows some semblance of accountability.
> 
> If she insisted on seeing it the opposite way, I would not consider reconciliation with her under any circumstance.


That is true. I appreciate the reminder on the bigger picture.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

MattMatt said:


> Have her checked for being on the ASD spectrum.


Heh, that would make explaining things a lot easier


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## BluesPower

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I am working towards this. I did leave the house today and got dinner with the kids. I'm tired of being the one who leaves, I told my wife either she could leave or I was going out with the kids, and so I did.
> 
> I really almost lost it again today. When I said to her, "how could you be asking me about a ****ing girl's weekend right now?", her response was, "I thought of it as an opportunity for self-healing and rejuvenation."
> 
> What I struggle with is this - how much room for mistakes/improvements do you leave while in this "purgatory" position of not sure if I want to D or R. I don't want to give up, but I am so tired of feeling like she has no empathy and is constantly selfish.


I have posted on both your threads. You got pissed at me about what I posted on your wife's thread. 

I don't really get that, and I just abandoned SI because IMO, they are just wrong about a lot of things, lots...

But this right here I think bears out what I was saying to your Wife... She does not get it and I am not sure if she ever will... YOU Are controlling... that is a laugh... 

You may not like what I say either, but this example right her is total and one hundred percent proof that she does not get, and I don't think she ever will... 

HOW DARE SHE, at this point, ever think about asking you if she could go a GIRLS trip. I mean the very thought makes me want to puke. 

See, this is why she does not get it, like a lot of WS on SI. She does not right not, and maybe never again have the right to put you in that position of saying NO, **** no, no way in her do you get to do a girls trip. I should file for divorce this week because you even asked me... 

Do you see what I am saying, she without any prompting NEVER EVER ASK ABOUT A GIRLS WEEKEND UNTIL THE DAY THAT SHE DIES... 

But like a lot have said, she does not get it...


----------



## Taxman

HTM your wife lacks a significant amount of empathy. She is incapable of putting herself into your shoes. I have read both of your threads. Yup, she is desperate to "fix" what she did to you. I don't think she will ever be able to fix this. You needed that detail in hand before you said "I do". Essentially you have been robbed of your free will in this marriage. AND no, I do not think your little thing was an emotional affair. Your wife simply cannot understand the depth of hurt she has put on you. I deal with this on a regular basis, and cannot begin to tell you how many people that have sat in front of me wondering why their betrayed spouse is acting they way they are. My usual come back is: Imagine if you will, your spouse going out, and getting ****ed. Going with someone you would hate. Having sex with another person, not you, and doing things that you would never do in bed. The response usually is, they just can't imagine it. I ask how would you feel knowing that your husband/wife stepped out on you. A good number say they would either beat the crap out of their spouse, and then leave. Oh? and my reaction is, so why now do you not understand that your husband/wife has issues with you swapping bodily fluids with someone outside the marriage?

A few times, I have been accused of promoting revenge affairs. Nope, I do not. I want the wayward to understand what their partner is experiencing. Yes, a few have gone on to having their revenge. However, the best revenge is when you have left them in the dust, and have found a better life with someone else. Those are the ones I promote. SI is a pro-reconciliation site. It was set up as such. It quote unquote saved the marriage of the site founders. It has morphed over the years, even gotten militantly pro reconciliation. I believe I lasted no more than a few weeks, and the mod caught me one night in my cups, and I was a little less than pleasant. I guess their people do not like to be told to do something that would be physically impossible. 

CBM/HTM123 as an experiment, tell your wife that you want to get even with her. See what her reaction to that is. My bet is that she will get empathy in one hot ****ing second. You will see the deer in the headlights look. This experiment will lead you to whatever conclusion you want to make with your relationship. It provides a very interesting look at her true psyche.


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## farsidejunky

Moderator Note:

Bypassing the word filter is not allowed. 

Type the actual word and let the filters do the work.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

BluesPower said:


> I have posted on both your threads. You got pissed at me about what I posted on your wife's thread.
> 
> I don't really get that, and I just abandoned SI because IMO, they are just wrong about a lot of things, lots...
> 
> But this right here I think bears out what I was saying to your Wife... She does not get it and I am not sure if she ever will... YOU Are controlling... that is a laugh...
> 
> You may not like what I say either, but this example right her is total and one hundred percent proof that she does not get, and I don't think she ever will...
> 
> HOW DARE SHE, at this point, ever think about asking you if she could go a GIRLS trip. I mean the very thought makes me want to puke.
> 
> See, this is why she does not get it, like a lot of WS on SI. She does not right not, and maybe never again have the right to put you in that position of saying NO, **** no, no way in her do you get to do a girls trip. I should file for divorce this week because you even asked me...
> 
> Do you see what I am saying, she without any prompting NEVER EVER ASK ABOUT A GIRLS WEEKEND UNTIL THE DAY THAT SHE DIES...
> 
> But like a lot have said, she does not get it...


I don't remember getting pissed at you but my memory is foggy over the past couple weeks of posting. The SI situation got out of hand for a number of reasons, not the least of which was my irresponsible use of the site for venting and validation. 

My initial response was exactly what you said - how dare she. What ****ing nerve. I was pissed. I am still am. 

The difference between this f-up and others is that she picked up on the selfishness and insensitivity of it pretty quickly, and apologized to me in a way that showed me she got it. This is not typical for her - in the past , mostly she justified her actions and apologized only for my feelings being hurt (i.e., "I'm sorry I made you feel that way"), not for her responsibility in hurting them ("I'm sorry I said such a selfish thing and took you for granted"). 

So, I see improvement there. I see some of the work she is doing paying off. I hate what she asked, it's insanely selfish, but I do see improvement and that means something to me. It at least gives me a reason not to file for D right that instant. I do _want _us to work, if I was just looking for a reason call it quits I think that would be a good enough reason, but that's not my goal. 



> Do you see what I am saying, she without any prompting NEVER EVER ASK ABOUT A GIRLS WEEKEND UNTIL THE DAY THAT SHE DIES...


I don't agree with this. I don't think her having cheated means that she never gets to go on vacation without me again for as long as she lives. I think it means she has to be accountable to me, and check in, and maybe provide location data if I decide I need it, but I think it would be insanely controlling to make an ultimatum that she never go on a trip/vacation without me again.


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## BluesPower

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I'll add also as a reminder, it was me asking about the kiss at our anniversary dinner that prompted her confession. She says she couldn't stand to lie anymore once she realized I never truly let it go. I believe her, and I also believe it was selfish guilt-release at a time where she finally felt safe coming clean.
> 
> And yes, the "kiss" haunted me because I always suspected there was more to it. At this point I honestly wish I just let it go.


This is where I have problems, with the situation and your attitude and your willingness to protect your wife at all costs...

See, I DON'T think she could NOT live with the guilt, I think after 12 years, she thought that you we STUCK with her, and the kids and the marriage, and she had the upper hand... So, she could DUMP her guilt on you.

That is what this poster thinks. I think she thought by now, she had the upper hand and she could dump her guilt and you would not mind, after 12 years that she was screwing another guy while you were moving toward marriage. 

I also think that she really "didn't think it was that bad" until you, rightly so, FREAKED the **** OUT, like any man in this situation would do. 

NOW she is scrambling, and STILL DOES NOT GET IT AT ALL...


----------



## HappenedToMe123

Taxman said:


> CBM/HTM123 as an experiment, tell your wife that you want to get even with her. See what her reaction to that is. My bet is that she will get empathy in one hot ****ing second. You will see the deer in the headlights look. This experiment will lead you to whatever conclusion you want to make with your relationship. It provides a very interesting look at her true psyche.


I have openly discussed with her my desire to get even. I have discussed a hall pass (go see the cluster **** on my SI thread about this). I have even said to her that I have concerns about remaining faithful to her if we stay married, that I think my sense of wanting justice, revenge, entitlement, etc would lead me to justify an affair of my own. 

Her answer to all of this is that she would deal with it if it meant we could stay married. That she would hate it but it would be worth it to her.


----------



## HappenedToMe123

BluesPower said:


> This is where I have problems, with the situation and your attitude and your willingness to protect your wife at all costs...
> 
> See, I DON'T think she could NOT live with the guilt, I think after 12 years, she thought that you we STUCK with her, and the kids and the marriage, and she had the upper hand... So, she could DUMP her guilt on you.
> 
> That is what this poster thinks. I think she thought by now, she had the upper hand and she could dump her guilt and you would not mind, after 12 years that she was screwing another guy while you were moving toward marriage.
> 
> I also think that she really "didn't think it was that bad" until you, rightly so, FREAKED the **** OUT, like any man in this situation would do.
> 
> NOW she is scrambling, and STILL DOES NOT GET IT AT ALL...


I don't know why you think I'm protecting her, or that I disagree with you. I don't disagree with you at all, the only thing I would say I disagree with is the level of pre-meditation involved, or how much of it was conscious vs sub-conscious. But I'm largely in agreement with your thoughts.


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## HappenedToMe123

Thread has now been started in private: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/432295-fallout-years-later-confession.html


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## Taxman

First of all, suggestion of an RA on SI is tantamount to heresy. I am surprised that they did not ban you. 

In your shoes, the only way that it would work would be a blindside. It has to be something that would shock her. Since she knows that it is a possibility, the shock value is lost. A few guys have done it with a partner that really hurt their wife. I ran across a story a few years back where the wife actually pointed a girlfriend at her husband so that he could have "revenge". I responded to that story, that the sex with the girlfriend was not revenge, as the wife set it up. Nope, I told the guy to go have it off with his wife's sister, then leave so that it screwed up her FOO, and her marriage at once. Evil me.

For it to work it would have to come out of left field, and shock the hell out of her. I seriously wonder if that could be achieved. Unless you lull her into a false sense of security, and then drop the bomb. I will NOT comment on whether this is a good thing or not a good thing, but it is reality for you. PS, I do not think this should be a ONS with a person that you do not know. One of my clients basically downloaded AM in front of his wife, and made the date. He showed his wife a picture of the person he was to sleep with that night. It rocked her world. She could put a face immediately on his AP. That drove her nuts, as well as he told her that her affair had been months in length, and he planned to do exactly what his wife and her OM had done on their dates. She was flabberghasted. She said that their budget could not take the restaurants that her OM took her to. He looked at her, and said, "I guess you had better work overtime, as that is exactly what I plan". I will not take my dates to greasy spoons, while you were wined and dined with the best, oh and you had better come up with a few grand for the vacation that you took with him. She did a quick tally, and determined that she would be working overtime for a few months, so that he could take his dates out to the same level that she had enjoyed, and she was mightily angered, when the great week she spent in Vegas with OM, was repeated by her husband and his AP....on her nickel. That hurt. She watched her money go to her husband screwing his AP. It was meant to hurt.

I frankly will not re-read the barrage of cow pies that were flung at you on SI. There are more than a few people on that site (could they be evil bots?) that turn my stomach. Not that they are cheaters or victims or whatever, just an attitude that needs to be dropped. (I hope that people like that keep their anger tamped down in face to face situations, but there are one or two that seem to go through life with their fists permanently balled up)


----------



## MattMatt

HappenedToMe123 said:


> Heh, that would make explaining things a lot easier


Trust me, it does.


----------



## just got it 55

HappenedToMe123 said:


> It's not really a sunk cost, we have kids. That changes things. Plus, the 12 years have been mostly good. In the @sokillme analogy, my Monet forgery has made me happy and throwing it out would leave me with an empty wall and a need to deal with the con artist for 14~ more years anyway. Am I better off forgiving the con artist and enjoying the painting? This analogy doesn't really work anymore but you get my conundrum.


 @HappenedToMe123

Sorry your life has come to this
Your Decision process should be based on these criteria

Maintaining your sanity 

Keeping your health intact

Keeping your self-respect intact

Keeping your finances intact

Keeping your relationship with your children intact

Putting all these things first and taking that path it will lead you out of Infidelity and on to a better life.

The best result is a life well lived
55

ETA: @Walloped nice to see you giving TAM another try you will be a great contributor


----------



## Rubix Cubed

.


----------



## sokillme

HappenedToMe123 said:


> I have openly discussed with her my desire to get even. I have discussed a hall pass (go see the cluster **** on my SI thread about this). I have even said to her that I have concerns about remaining faithful to her if we stay married, that I think my sense of wanting justice, revenge, entitlement, etc would lead me to justify an affair of my own.
> 
> Her answer to all of this is that she would deal with it if it meant we could stay married. That she would hate it but it would be worth it to her.


The only way you will get revenge is to be happily married to someone else, even then once you really love someone else seeing as your wife isn't a monster you will probably at the point just feel bad for her. That's because what makes you want to have revenge now is you deep feelings for your wife, if you fall in love with someone else those deep feelings will be gone and the cheating won't hurt anymore. Having sex with someone else will just be sex with someone else. 

The truth is there is really no justice in this. There will never be at least in this world. Maybe some karma but it still isn't justice, because true justice would mean it's like it never happened. Look at me I am happily married and thankful that that girl cheated on me because I ended up with a better deal, yet I am still posting about this trying to help people. The cheating had a profound affect on me. There is no way to take away the most painful time in my life. But that's life. People have had it much worse.


----------



## Walloped

Taxman said:


> First of all, suggestion of an RA on SI is tantamount to heresy. I am surprised that they did not ban you.


Since HTM has moved to a different thread, I figured I’d address this (since SI is the point of this thread, right?).

Why does this shock you? SI is different than TAM in that SI’s stated purpose is anti-infidelity. TAM is a board for all sorts of talk. If your very purpose is to help people through the trauma of infidelity and identify the evils of infidelity, why are you surprised when they don’t take kindly to suggesting folks commit infidelity? To legitimize that line of thinking would mean that infidelity isn’t so bad, as long as it’s justified based on whatever rationalization someone makes. Sure, one person thinks their reason makes it okay, but who’s to say your reason is better or worse than someone else’s? Regardless, by okaying an RA you’re basically said infidelity is okay - you’re now just arguing over degrees and circumstance. And you’re really surprised SI disagrees with that notion?

For the record, you don’t get banned for suggesting an RA on SI. I’ve lost count how many times it was suggested to me and I know many posters suggested the same to my wife. However, if a poster suggests it and then the intended target says no thank you, not interested, but the original poster keeps at it, they will shut that down. Not because it’s about an RA but because you’re pushing an agenda and borderline harassing someone just because they disagree with your worldview. It’s a support forum. At that point you are not supporting.

Anyway, there are plenty of pros and cons to SI. To suggest non-acceptance of the concept of an RA is a negative for a site dedicated to helping victims of infidelity is just ludicrous.


----------



## farsidejunky

I am a periodic contributor at SI.

There are many posters on SI that are first-rate. I think they do very well at helping people recognize whether or not remorse is occurring, how to see through gaslighting, etc.

I think where SI falls short (with rare exception) is there is not enough encouragement of growth for the individual. It's almost like the marriage takes precedent over the individual.

The problem with that is that without healthy individuals, there is not a healthy marriage.

This is one reason why I've been so hard on CBM, as well as other BS's and WS's. 

When I hear complaints on this site about SI, what I'm reading between the lines is members here being overly empathic for posters there. 

And as much as I like to wield 2x4's, they are not always the answer. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> Since HTM has moved to a different thread, I figured I’d address this (since SI is the point of this thread, right?).
> 
> Why does this shock you? SI is different than TAM in that SI’s stated purpose is anti-infidelity. TAM is a board for all sorts of talk. If your very purpose is to help people through the trauma of infidelity and identify the evils of infidelity, why are you surprised when they don’t take kindly to suggesting folks commit infidelity? To legitimize that line of thinking would mean that infidelity isn’t so bad, as long as it’s justified based on whatever rationalization someone makes. Sure, one person thinks their reason makes it okay, but who’s to say your reason is better or worse than someone else’s? Regardless, by okaying an RA you’re basically said infidelity is okay - you’re now just arguing over degrees and circumstance. And you’re really surprised SI disagrees with that notion?
> 
> For the record, you don’t get banned for suggesting an RA on SI. I’ve lost count how many times it was suggested to me and I know many posters suggested the same to my wife. However, if a poster suggests it and then the intended target says no thank you, not interested, but the original poster keeps at it, they will shut that down. Not because it’s about an RA but because you’re pushing an agenda and borderline harassing someone just because they disagree with your worldview. It’s a support forum. At that point you are not supporting.
> 
> Anyway, there are plenty of pros and cons to SI. To suggest non-acceptance of the concept of an RA is a negative for a site dedicated to helping victims of infidelity is just ludicrous.


SI's purpose it to help people "Survive Infidelity" and only that as far as I can tell.


----------



## Walloped

sokillme said:


> SI's purpose it to help people "Survive Infidelity" and only that as far as I can tell.


Their basic guidelines state that practicing or current WS’s or AP’s are not allowed to post and will be banned. Encouraging someone to become a WS (the “but he/she did it first” argument is silly) via a RA is encouraging someone to do something that will get you banned.

Again, I’m not sure why folks are shocked that SI takes a very dim view of encouraging infidelity.


----------



## satphil

Does anyone believe the Bahama and Ladybugman threads are for real, seems very fake to me. They have got all the usual suspects eating it up and replying with their long but mainly copy and pasted ways to move forward. The burner phone was the final giveaway for me.


----------



## iberieli

Walloped said:


> Their basic guidelines state that practicing or current WS’s or AP’s are not allowed to post and will be banned.


This is from WW-side forum description :
" WS's who have ended or trying to end their affairs and are striving to reconcile"

You can post on WW side and say : "i want to end my A"
And then happily proceed to post there while being in active A.


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> Their basic guidelines state that practicing or current WS’s or AP’s are not allowed to post and will be banned. Encouraging someone to become a WS (the “but he/she did it first” argument is silly) via a RA is encouraging someone to do something that will get you banned.
> 
> Again, I’m not sure why folks are shocked that SI takes a very dim view of encouraging infidelity.


I and I thing lots of people believe the vows are no longer binding or valid once one of the person's in the agreement have broken them. I personally don't think it's cheating, though I wouldn't encourage it. I also wouldn't encourage it if it's your intention to get back together but mostly because it makes more problems. If you ARE separating then I certainly don't think you have to wait until the courts say the marriage is over. 

Fidelity in marriage is the only contractual agreement where some misguided people expect one party to keep the terms when the other party hasn't. That's just stupid.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

sokillme said:


> I and I thing lots of people believe the vows are no longer binding or valid once one of the person's in the agreement have broken them. I personally don't think it's cheating, though I wouldn't encourage it. I also wouldn't encourage it if it's your intention to get back together but mostly because it makes more problems. If you ARE separating then I certainly don't think you have to wait *until the courts say the marriage is over.*
> 
> Fidelity in marriage is the only contractual agreement where some misguided people expect one party to keep the terms when the other party hasn't. That's just stupid.


Exactly, the government shouldn't be involved in marriage to begin with, much less do what govt. does best, mire things down.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Walloped said:


> Taxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, suggestion of an RA on SI is tantamount to heresy. I am surprised that they did not ban you.
> 
> 
> 
> Since HTM has moved to a different thread, I figured I’d address this (since SI is the point of this thread, right?).
> 
> Why does this shock you? SI is different than TAM in that SI’s stated purpose is anti-infidelity. TAM is a board for all sorts of talk. If your very purpose is to help people through the trauma of infidelity and identify the evils of infidelity, why are you surprised when they don’t take kindly to suggesting folks commit infidelity? To legitimize that line of thinking would mean that infidelity isn’t so bad, as long as it’s justified based on whatever rationalization someone makes. Sure, one person thinks their reason makes it okay, but who’s to say your reason is better or worse than someone else’s? Regardless, by okaying an RA you’re basically said infidelity is okay - you’re now just arguing over degrees and circumstance. And you’re really surprised SI disagrees with that notion?
> 
> For the record, you don’t get banned for suggesting an RA on SI. I’ve lost count how many times it was suggested to me and I know many posters suggested the same to my wife. However, if a poster suggests it and then the intended target says no thank you, not interested, but the original poster keeps at it, they will shut that down. Not because it’s about an RA but because you’re pushing an agenda and borderline harassing someone just because they disagree with your worldview. It’s a support forum. At that point you are not supporting.
> 
> Anyway, there are plenty of pros and cons to SI. To suggest non-acceptance of the concept of an RA is a negative for a site dedicated to helping victims of infidelity is just ludicrous.
Click to expand...

Lord forbid you cheat on your cheater. Just bend over and take it like a good little ****? Pffft... Hot take for you...adultery is the end of marriage. There are no second chances and no remorse matters. If you don't accept that, then that is your choice to be stuck in that situation. But if I had to accept such a shameful situation, I'd make sure I got twice as much tail as my ho-wife in the end.


----------



## faithfulman

satphil said:


> Does anyone believe the Bahama and Ladybugman threads are for real, seems very fake to me. They have got all the usual suspects eating it up and replying with their long but mainly copy and pasted ways to move forward. The burner phone was the final giveaway for me.


I think this focus on threads at SI being fake is silly. I don't know what makes that thread any more fake than threads we have seen around here.

Recently there have been several very active threads on this forum that have been exposed as troll threads, with all the regulars posting advice and opinions, some of it going on for days and weeks.

And there have been a couple of other threads that seemed fishy but did not have a troll-reveal.

SI gets a lot of action. This place has less volume but I think the quality is higher.

***

In the end, the real problem with SI is that the forum software is from 1999. The user experience for reading and posting is so bad that it is absurd. The search function is barebones and borderline useless.

SI, update the goddamn forum software for chrissakes!


----------



## Wolfman1968

...


----------



## Loveshorror

SisterMilkshake is truly a horrible, bitter person. A thread she is commenting on started by GoldenR: “I skimmed and cherry picked what I read, but I am going to be defensive and make nasty comments about people who are not pro-R no matter what! Because it threatens my ridiculous choice to get back with a cheater in a 7-year LTA! But he never even liked her and did the work. Oh, and while I call the menz out on this thread for language, my calling the OW the worst mysogynistic names is ok and doesn’t make me a hypocrite! Our R is great!”


----------



## sokillme

There are lots of threads I have my doubts about. I post because it still may help someone.


----------



## personofinterest

sokillme said:


> There are lots of threads I have my doubts about. I post because it still may help someone.


Exactly


----------



## Nrecnocymton

Loveshorror said:


> SisterMilkshake is truly a horrible, bitter person. A thread she is commenting on started by GoldenR: “I skimmed and cherry picked what I read, but I am going to be defensive and make nasty comments about people who are not pro-R no matter what! Because it threatens my ridiculous choice to get back with a cheater in a 7-year LTA! But he never even liked her and did the work. Oh, and while I call the menz out on this thread for language, my calling the OW the worst mysogynistic names is ok and doesn’t make me a hypocrite! Our R is great!”


IMO, SMS is, by far, the most defensive regular poster on SI. When posters counter her or have an opposing opinion, she usually cannot let it go. No matter how nice they present their side, SMS almost always (there are a few exceptions) needs to get in the last word. It’s just her nature. That doesn’t mean she’s always wrong, but she has a way to lose some debates/discussions with her attitude. 

Going out a limb here. I think there was a time she was hoping to be asked to be a “Guide” on the way to be coming a Moderator. Could you image the response of some people if that came to fruition?


----------



## Spoons027

Nrecnocymton said:


> IMO, SMS is, by far, the most defensive regular poster on SI. When posters counter her or have an opposing opinion, she usually cannot let it go. No matter how nice they present they’re side, SMS almost always (there are a few exceptions) needs to get in the last word. It’s just her nature. That doesn’t mean she’s always wrong, but she has a way to lose some debates/discussions with her attitude.
> 
> Going out a limb here. I think there was a time she was hoping to be asked to be a “Guide” on the way to be coming a Moderator. Could you image the response of some people if that came to fruition?


Ban hammer everywhere, haha.


----------



## sokillme

SMS is like the guy who started the gay conversion therapy, his name is David Matheson.

I think she hates her life and choices and resents anyone who is able to make different ones.


----------



## Loveshorror

I think she hates her “FWH”, he did have a 7-yr LTA after all, but won’t let go. And needs to validate her “R”. By being pro-R no matter. But she’s being an absolute ball bag on that thread.


----------



## Walloped

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Lord forbid you cheat on your cheater. Just bend over and take it like a good little ****? Pffft... Hot take for you...adultery is the end of marriage. There are no second chances and no remorse matters. If you don't accept that, then that is your choice to be stuck in that situation. But if I had to accept such a shameful situation, I'd make sure I got twice as much tail as my ho-wife in the end.


I didn’t say what you should or shouldn’t do. I asked why is it surprising that as a site dedicated to helping survive infidelity would be against the idea of encouraging infidelity in the form of a RA? 

And no, adultery is not the end of a marriage no matter how much you’d like it to be. And while you’re entitled to your viewpoint, the legal and religious world has a different POV that most people align with. And therefore your very first sentence is accurate. You’d be _cheating_ on your cheater. And since you agree that it is indeed cheating, we should agree that a forum designed to support people suffering through the evil of infidelity should not encourage folks to commit that same evil, right?

Look, I get you’re not an R fan, and that in your view using your wife’s infidelity is a valid excuse to betray your own personal integrity as long you got your willie wet in the process, but it’s not about what you would do or what I would do. It’s what should an infidelity forum promote? I’m trying to think of equivalent analogies (and failing) like should Alcoholics Anonymous hold mixers or pro-life groups holding abortion info-seminars, but I think you get the drift.

Without the hostility and infantile **** comments, what do you think?


----------



## Walloped

sokillme said:


> Fidelity in marriage is the only contractual agreement where some misguided people expect one party to keep the terms when the other party hasn't. That's just stupid.


What terms is that? Where does it say fidelity is part of the agreement? Is it written somewhere? Are there other terms in the marriage contract or just infidelity? What if one person breaks on of those other terms? In that case can only the same term be broken by the other partner or are they all interchangeable? Can one partner use lack of compliance on any one of those other terms as an excuse to commit infidelity? Who gets to make these decisions? Each couple on their own? How does that work?


----------



## sokillme

Walloped said:


> What terms is that? Where does it say fidelity is part of the agreement? Is it written somewhere? Are there other terms in the marriage contract or just infidelity? What if one person breaks on of those other terms? In that case can only the same term be broken by the other partner or are they all interchangeable? Can one partner use lack of compliance on any one of those other terms as an excuse to commit infidelity? Who gets to make these decisions? Each couple on their own? How does that work?


I think for most people understand sexual fidelity is the pretty basic term of the marital agreement. So that would be the one I am talking about. Without sexual fidelity all you really have is a business partnership and possible friendship. The sex part is really the thing that makes it a marriage. 

For instance as I am sure you know in the torah braking that term would subject you to punishment by death, obviously that is not followed anymore but it gives and example of how serious the offense was. 

In my religion it is seen as one of the very few reasons divorce is permitted. 

I am pretty sure most major religions have laws against it. 

I mean I guess we could get into an argument and compare it to say being disrespectful but I think you know and I know that it's not the same thing. 

The truth is people can divorce for whatever reason they want. I certainly think after you have been cheated on it's valid to say, nope I am not going to honor you with my fidelity anymore. I personally feel any kind of abuse warrants divorce. At least as far as I am concerned there will be no judgement from me on that. 

Again if I pledge my fidelity to you and you do the same only to brake that pledge, I am going to consider that pledge no longer valid. Just like if I agree to give you goods for you services, if you don't perform those services you are not getting my goods. 

Pretty simple.


----------



## Walloped

My point is that your argument amounts to “You did something wrong that we both agreed we wouldn’t do, so now I get free reign to do that same wrong thing too.” You don’t get to say “but you did it first!” We’re not in kindergarten anymore.

You brought up marriage as a contract. I’m not a lawyer but my basic understanding of contract law is that if one party is in breach of contract, the other has a right to damages or can terminate the contract. But that’s not instantaneous. There’s a process. And in the case of infidelity, one spouse can terminate the contract (Divorce). But until that happens, the contract is still in force. 

My biggest issue with promoting or condoning a RA is that you can rationalize it all you want, but it’s still infidelity - legally and from a religious/moral perspective. Justifying it goes only so far. Because then your argument boils down to “It’s okay (or not really called infidelity) under these circumstances, just those.” But the problem with that is your determination of when it’s okay may be very different from someone else’s view. What if my husband beats me? Can I cheat on him? What if she doesn’t cook, clean, and gained 400 pounds? Can I cheat on her? Where’s the line? Is it only if he/she did it first? Why? Why is that the barometer? What if he’s a gambling addict and just blew our savings in Vegas? What if she’s an alcoholic? Who gets to say when it’s okay and when it’s not okay? 

Therefore, and feel free to disagree (it’s just my POV after all), a line has to be drawn where all infidelity is wrong. Period. There is no justification and no rationalization that excuses it. And frankly, I think it’s that viewpoint that it’s okay depending on whether I think the circumstances warrant it, that leads to people excusing their actions for whatever reason is enough to make them cross that line. Rationalizing and justifying bad behavior is a very slippery slope.

It. Is. Never. Okay.


----------



## sokillme

First of all I didn't justify adultery, I just don't think having sex with a person after your spouse has cheated on you IS Adultery. I agree Adultery is always wrong, I just think the marriage is void so it's not Adultery. Why would the cheating spouse care, or more importantly what gives the cheating spouse the right to care. They don't merit the honor of fidelity anyway. If you read my post I also said I wouldn't recommend it if you are trying to fix things, but I almost always would recommend you divorce anyway. I think I am pretty consistent on both points. 

If I could make the laws I would immediately make the marriage contract void at the point of adultery. So there is that. 

I have also stated if you decide to continue in the marriage then you are accepting the terms again, unless stating otherwise. But I wouldn't have a problem if you say, we can stay married but fidelity is off the table until such time as I want to put it back on the table. That seems reasonable to me as long as it's understood by both parties. I just think that is not going to be a very successful way to build a marriage. But so is sleeping with someone who is not your spouse. The telling thing is I doubt most WS would except this, though they have forced their BS to live under those terms without giving them a choice. 

You are trying to cloud my point by making it very broad but my point is only about sexual fidelity. In your example for instance the husband mistreating you has nothing to do with pledging your sexual fidelity. I certainly think you are within your rights to divorce and I would recommend you do so.


----------



## personofinterest

Sorry, kill me, the Bible doesn't say "Thiu shalt not commit adultery unless your spouse cheats first."

I understand your opinion, but you can't back it up with religion.


----------



## MyRevelation

Walloped said:


> What terms is that? Where does it say fidelity is part of the agreement? Is it written somewhere? Are there other terms in the marriage contract or just infidelity? What if one person breaks on of those other terms? In that case can only the same term be broken by the other partner or are they all interchangeable? Can one partner use lack of compliance on any one of those other terms as an excuse to commit infidelity? Who gets to make these decisions? Each couple on their own? How does that work?


Oh Please ... what pure Bull****!!!

You’re as bad as SMS in defending your own poor decisions.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> Sorry, kill me, the Bible doesn't say "Thiu shalt not commit adultery unless your spouse cheats first."
> 
> I understand your opinion, but you can't back it up with religion.


Nope you just divorce.


----------



## Walloped

MyRevelation said:


> Oh Please ... what pure Bull****!!!
> 
> You’re as bad as SMS in defending your own poor decisions.


You misunderstand my questions. They’re leading questions to provoke an argument (discussion, not fight), not my viewpoint.

The point I was trying to make is say there are 4-5 universally agreed upon terms in a marriage. Does one party breaking one mean the other can only break the same one or can they break any of the other 4-5? We’re not talking divorce here because an RA occurs prior to a divorce. And if you say you can only break the same one the other person did, then my question is why? Who makes that rule? And if you can break any of the others if one person cheats, then why doesn’t the reverse work? Meaning if one person breaks a non-infidelity term can the other commit infidelity?

Basically, no matter how you slice it, the logic behind an RA is extremely faulty and is just based on the desire for revenge and to hurt the offending spouse by doing what he/she did back to them.

As an aside, what “poor decisions?”


----------



## Walloped

sokillme said:


> Nope you just divorce.


Agreed. But an RA occurs while still married, i.e., prior to divorce. You’re contradicting yourself.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> Sorry, kill me, the Bible doesn't say "Thiu shalt not commit adultery unless your spouse cheats first."
> 
> I understand your opinion, but you can't back it up with religion.



Here is a question, was stoning to death ever revoked in the new testament? >


----------



## Bluesclues

Walloped said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lord forbid you cheat on your cheater. Just bend over and take it like a good little ****? Pffft... Hot take for you...adultery is the end of marriage. There are no second chances and no remorse matters. If you don't accept that, then that is your choice to be stuck in that situation. But if I had to accept such a shameful situation, I'd make sure I got twice as much tail as my ho-wife in the end.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn’t say what you should or shouldn’t do. I asked why is it surprising that as a site dedicated to helping survive infidelity would be against the idea of encouraging infidelity in the form of a RA?
> 
> And no, adultery is not the end of a marriage no matter how much you’d like it to be. And while you’re entitled to your viewpoint, the legal and religious world has a different POV that most people align with. And therefore your very first sentence is accurate. You’d be _cheating_ on your cheater. And since you agree that it is indeed cheating, we should agree that a forum designed to support people suffering through the evil of infidelity should not encourage folks to commit that same evil, right?
> 
> Look, I get you’re not an R fan, and that in your view using your wife’s infidelity is a valid excuse to betray your own personal integrity as long you got your willie wet in the process, but it’s not about what you would do or what I would do. It’s what should an infidelity forum promote? I’m trying to think of equivalent analogies (and failing) like should Alcoholics Anonymous hold mixers or pro-life groups holding abortion info-seminars, but I think you get the drift.
> 
> Without the hostility and infantile **** comments, what do you think?
Click to expand...

Two thoughts - the first being the “which forum is better” argument. I think it depends on where you are in the infidelity cycle and frankly, what gender you are. I found SI when my first husband cheated. I don’t think I would have survived without it. I needed the commiseration that is provided there and I certainly was not ready to hear “just divorce him”. BUT, I also think that commiseration keeps folks “stuck” in infidelity, even when they think they are reconciled or even divorced. When you have an outlet to post about every little thought about the A and get “hugs” and more commiseration and not a lot of counter feedback, one tends to dwell on things more. At 12 months, 18 months, 24+ months out from dday you live in infidelity constantly at SI and one gets used to the warm bath of hugs and agreement. At TAM it is sort of a whine-free zone. The feedback is basically like doing the ice bucket challenge. If that is still bothering you then GTFO. Get busy living or get busy dying (did @sokillme already quote movie in this thread?). The point is what action are you going to take to get past whatever is bothering you. As a former SI poster this took some serious getting used to, but I believe it has been key to my personal healing and reconciling (with WH2). But it I was a newbie to infidelity I would have run - probably to SI. 

I brought up gender because most posters on SI are female and tend to act stereotypicaly female and empathize and coddle those in pain. We women often take care of and “fix” things for the people we love to our own detriment. And we tend to want everyone to be happy so don’t always give the most blunt feedback. To use a cliche “Do these pants make my butt look big?” Majority at SI would say “No! Girl you look fabulous, you should wear those every day!” At TAM “Yes, you look fat because you are fat. Face reality and lose weight or look like Jabba the Hut in those pants, your choice”. And there are posters on both forums that take a median approach. “You know, you would look so good wearing this other pair, why don’t you try those on?” But that voice gets drowned out by the extremes. I know that is all generalizing, but most women are used to communicating with other women that way. I don’t know that men that come to SI understand they are being made to feel better in the moment. 

On to the RA. I don’t disagree with you on an RA being bad and considered infidelity, just like the original cheating that brought them there. It is not a good idea just for the personal tolls that it costs the BS. However, my issue is the way SI moderates Madhatters. It goes up my ass airways that WS that are actively in an affair but hemming and hawing about whether to end it are allowed to post. Look up Huffi Puffi’s posts sometime, if posts go back that far. That guy basically invented sister wives and still has a post that is bumped to this day. People who are Madhatters but had already cheated before they came to SI are also welcome to post - maybe not in JFO, but anywhere else. But if you came to SI as a BS, shared and commiserated with that community and then cheat on your WS? Well, you are then a leper, a Brahman untouchable. And banned. That doesn’t sit right. You can actively cheat and debate the decision like HP for years and have a home there, but if you go to the dark side after being in the BS clique you are banished? That doesn’t make sense. And I can tell you from experience it feels like being in the movie Heathers. I would guess the excuse is ease of moderating, but that is bull****. It is 100% butt-hurtness that you were allowed in the club and didn’t play by club rules. It has zero to do with how the RA impacts the marriage and everything to do with how the RA makes them, as a clique, look. You have no idea how many people on that site are actually MH but won’t post about it because of this strict rule. So they lie when they post and get **** advice back because they aren’t facing a big part of their emotional lives. 

But that is of course up to them. Their site, their rules. TAM is more inclusive because it allows people in all the stages of marriage to post, not just the acceptable ones. And high praise for the moderators here who use their own judgement and give multiple chances to this crazy herd. 

Oh, and last thought on SI. When people like SMS were old timers when I started posting in ‘08, they have a problem in their life and should not be giving advice to others. I made amazing friends in real life there and most of those people (BS/WS both) have moved and and are living happy lives.


----------



## sokillme

Bluesclues said:


> The feedback is basically like doing the ice bucket challenge.


Ha, that hilarious.


----------



## MyRevelation

Honestly, TAM enables dysfunction too. We have an unbelievable story in the private forum that you can check in on every month and nothing changes. He keeps making the same terrible decisions over and over and a specific group, of mostly women, just keep propping up his inability to make a decision and stick with it.

If you believe him, which I really don’t, he may be the most pathetic willing cuckold on the internet and we just keep on enabling him to keep on screwing himself.

Also, if he really is for real, he’s way too much of a troubled puppy to be helped by cyber psycho babble and/or hand holding. He needs serious and long term professional psychiatric treatment.

I suppose I’m just venting at the overall stupidity of engaging in those who are either trolls or past the point of casual help.

Take my rant for what I was paid to write it.


----------



## GusPolinski

MyRevelation said:


> Honestly, TAM enables dysfunction too. We have an unbelievable story in the private forum that you can check in on every month and nothing changes. He keeps making the same terrible decisions over and over and a specific group, of mostly women, just keep propping up his inability to make a decision and stick with it.
> 
> If you believe him, which I really don’t, he may be the most pathetic willing cuckold on the internet and we just keep on enabling him to keep on screwing himself.
> 
> Also, if he really is for real, he’s way too much of a troubled puppy to be helped by cyber psycho babble and/or hand holding. He needs serious and long term professional psychiatric treatment.
> 
> I suppose I’m just venting at the overall stupidity of engaging in those who are either trolls or past the point of casual help.
> 
> Take my rant for what I was paid to write it.


Some threads you’ve just got to duck out of.


----------



## Blondilocks

MyRevelation said:


> Honestly, TAM enables dysfunction too. We have an unbelievable story in the private forum that you can check in on every month and nothing changes. He keeps making the same terrible decisions over and over and a specific group, of mostly women, just keep propping up his inability to make a decision and stick with it.
> 
> If you believe him, which I really don’t, he may be the most pathetic willing cuckold on the internet and we just keep on enabling him to keep on screwing himself.
> 
> Also, if he really is for real, he’s way too much of a troubled puppy to be helped by cyber psycho babble and/or hand holding. He needs serious and long term professional psychiatric treatment.
> 
> I suppose I’m just venting at the overall stupidity of engaging in those who are either trolls or past the point of casual help.
> 
> Take my rant for what I was paid to write it.


Some threads will have a revelation that makes it jump the shark for you. At that point, it's interesting to watch for when the "story" starts to unravel.:wink2: In the meantime, one can try to educate the peanut gallery.


----------



## sokillme

So SI is a cancer. I used to think at least the W section was good but some the latest posters, on in particular is the most repugnant I have ever seen. Of course when it was open to BS she was getting good but necessary harsh advice, so what do that do? They close it down to just WS and now she isn't getting any help at all. Z is really the only poster with anything worthwhile to say at all. 

I have never read a more entitled W. She cheated and now is demanding he get better basically. Her husband sounds terribly weak and passive. As I was reading though I realized it makes sense, the only time of person who would ever marry a women like this would have to be very weak. Anyone with any backbone or normal expectation would have told her to **** off long before they got married. 

In that context in reading the R section I think it really hit home that that is really how it works. The people who are stuck in these broken marriages are really at probably the best they can be at. In other words you get what you accept or what you are capable of. If you are not capable of demanding you be respected you probably will end up with someone who continually to disrespects you. But no one says that on there. But it explains why all the dynamics are so consistent.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Bluesclues said:


> But if you came to SI as a BS, shared and commiserated with that community and then cheat on your WS? Well, you are then a leper, a Brahman untouchable. And banned. That doesn’t sit right.


Yeah, I've seen them eat their own the minute ANY of them dared breathe the words 'revenge affair.' For those daring enough to admit they DID have a revenge affair, the herd acts as though that BS is Satan himself/herself for having DARED to cheat on the POS who cheated on them first. :rofl:

It's highly amusing - and the *HEIGHT* of hypocrisy - that they're always pushing the reconciliation agenda to most BS's, telling them it's totally possible they can reconcile 'successfully' with a *lying cheater.* But then they turn around and act as though a BS who had an RA is just pure garbage and not fit at all to be in decent society. I guess in their eyes, the only 'cheaters' worthy of forgiving are those who DON'T have revenge affairs and who cheated simply because they're selfish ass-holes and wanted to. LOL. Yeah, *that* makes total sense. :scratchhead:

One of my favorite posters over there (I think the flying monkey brigade probably banned him or ran him out of town on a rail) was a betrayed husband who was NOT one of those wimpy sad sacks too spineless to stand up for himself - the exact type they love to pander to over there. Nope, this guy manned up and took care of business. He was a betrayed husband and he purposely had an affair with the betrayed wife of the the creep who was having an affair with his wife. Both he and the BW _*wanted*_ to put the screws to their cheating spouses and that was their way of doing it. That guy rocked on so many levels. >>>


----------



## ConanHub

Walloped said:


> What terms is that? Where does it say fidelity is part of the agreement? Is it written somewhere? Are there other terms in the marriage contract or just infidelity? What if one person breaks on of those other terms? In that case can only the same term be broken by the other partner or are they all interchangeable? Can one partner use lack of compliance on any one of those other terms as an excuse to commit infidelity? Who gets to make these decisions? Each couple on their own? How does that work?


This post did not come out that well.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

sokillme said:


> In that context in reading the R section I think it really hit home that that is really how it works. The people who are stuck in these broken marriages are really at probably the best they can be at. In other words you get what you accept or what you are capable of. If you are not capable of demanding you be respected you probably will end up with someone who continually to disrespects you. But no one says that on there. But it explains why all the dynamics are so consistent.


 You're right. Whenever someone HAS tried to say exactly what you just said, the mods are usually all over them like a rat on a Cheeto, until they're either eventually driven off or simply banned. It reminds me of kids on the playground who put their fingers in their ears and sing real loud so they can't hear what someone else is trying to say to them because it doesn't fall in line with their opinion. So narrow-minded and childish. 

Yeah, the R board is truly the Island of Misfit Toys. I actually refer to them as the Village of the Damned. 

Sadly, it's mostly a bunch of deluded members *desperately* trying to convince themselves - and each other - that their cheaters have miraculously cut all contact with their affair partners and that their WSs have turned into Saints and will never cheat on them again. It seems a good amount of the members who once posted on the R board and had deluded themselves into thinking they were reconciled have been showing back up on SI posting that their cheater was caught, *once again*, cheating on them.

I don't understand why anyone would be surprised by that. I think it's more the norm than it is the exception that a cheater will cheat again and again if given the opportunity - and they just keep proving it over there.


----------



## alte Dame

What gets me about SI is the reflexive, contradictory 'normalizing' of emotions and behavior that are clearly not in the norm.

A poster can come on and say, 'I've been in false R for a year and have not been able to leave my bedroom for two months after finding out.'

'It's totally normal,' they all say, 'You should see a therapist, but your reaction is normal.'

It's my opinion that telling people their reactions and feelings are 'normal,' when they, in fact, are alarming or dysfunctional, only encourages them to stay in that state. It is often a very painful state, too, which won't improve if they are constantly told that their pain is typical.

Another observation of mine about SI regards the way they apparently edit at least some posters' contributions. There is one longtime and very colorful TAM member who also posts over there. His posts here are noted for their wealth of typos and off-color language. Suddenly, at SI, this very same poster is positively elegant in his prose. And no typos at all.

I prefer the less filtered approach of TAM.


----------



## Blondilocks

alte Dame said:


> What gets me about SI is the reflexive, contradictory 'normalizing' of emotions and behavior that are clearly not in the norm.
> 
> A poster can come on and say, 'I've been in false R for a year and have not been able to leave my bedroom for two months after finding out.'
> 
> 'It's totally normal,' they all say, 'You should see a therapist, but your reaction is normal.'
> 
> It's my opinion that telling people their reactions and feelings are 'normal,' when they, in fact, are alarming or dysfunctional, only encourages them to stay in that state. It is often a very painful state, too, which won't improve if they are constantly told that their pain is typical.
> 
> *Another observation of mine about SI regards the way they apparently edit at least some posters' contributions. There is one longtime and very colorful TAM member who also posts over there. His posts here are noted for their wealth of typos and off-color language. Suddenly, at SI, this very same poster is positively elegant in his prose. And no typos at all.*
> 
> I prefer the less filtered approach of TAM.


I doubt it's the mods trailing after him and cleaning up the droppings. More likely it's a case of 'when in Rome do as the Romans do'. Would you care to name said member?


----------



## alte Dame

Blondilocks said:


> I doubt it's the mods trailing after him and cleaning up the droppings. More likely it's a case of 'when in Rome do as the Romans do'. Would you care to name said member?


There is NO way that this particular poster can clean up his own writing act. None. Also, several members that I know have said that their posts were edited.

The member is 'the guy.' I always liked him when he was here. (Is he still here?)


----------



## Deejo

Never been over there.

Sounds like a hoot.

Speaking from the moderating side of the fence, the mods here in all of my tenure have not interacted much, which I feel is good. Generally the focus is always on trying to maintain some semblance of decorum. But there is no 'group think'.

I can tell you that it can extraordinarily challenging when someone starts posting the details of their circumstances and we are left to wonder if it's a troll poster or an attention seeker. Based on reading just the first post of this thread, I would have automatically presumed both the wife and husband were trolling.

And ... I always encourage posters to not get too attached to a thread, because it can at any time disappear.


----------



## ConanHub

alte Dame said:


> There is NO way that this particular poster can clean up his own writing act. None. Also, several members that I know have said that their posts were edited.
> 
> The member is 'the guy.' I always liked him when he was here. (Is he still here?)


Rarely anymore. That guy cracked me up!:grin2:


----------



## Blondilocks

alte Dame said:


> There is NO way that this particular poster can clean up his own writing act. None. Also, several members that I know have said that their posts were edited.
> 
> The member is 'the guy.' I always liked him when he was here. (Is he still here?)


Lol - that bad, huh? Don't think I've ever seen him post here.

I don't think it's kosher to edit someone's posts. Exception is for Ele when she is kind enough to throw the carriage for paragraphs. Either let it stand or delete it entirely.


----------



## just got it 55

sokillme said:


> So SI is a cancer. I used to think at least the W section was good but some the latest posters, on in particular is the most repugnant I have ever seen. Of course when it was open to BS she was getting good but necessary harsh advice, so what do that do? They close it down to just WS and now she isn't getting any help at all. Z is really the only poster with anything worthwhile to say at all.
> 
> I have never read a more entitled W. She cheated and now is demanding he get better basically. Her husband sounds terribly weak and passive. As I was reading though I realized it makes sense, the only time of person who would ever marry a women like this would have to be very weak. Anyone with any backbone or normal expectation would have told her to **** off long before they got married.
> 
> In that context in reading the R section I think it really hit home that that is really how it works. The people who are stuck in these broken marriages are really at probably the best they can be at. In other words you get what you accept or what you are capable of. If you are not capable of demanding you be respected you probably will end up with someone who continually to disrespects you. But no one says that on there. But it explains why all the dynamics are so consistent.


When you reconcile with a cheater you will always look at them with eyes of ambivalence

_The simultaneous presence of conflicting emotions_ this will never go away

55


----------



## skerzoid

I post on both. There are good and bad things on both. I prefer TAM but I try to learn and teach on both. I get disciplined more on SI. TAM is preferable in its overall operation and style.


----------



## CDR No Longer Lost

*Mr. Walloped:*

_What terms is that? Where does it say fidelity is part of the agreement? Is it written somewhere? Are there other terms in the marriage contract or just infidelity? What if one person breaks on of those other terms? In that case can only the same term be broken by the other partner or are they all interchangeable? Can one partner use lack of compliance on any one of those other terms as an excuse to commit infidelity? Who gets to make these decisions? Each couple on their own? How does that work?_



ConanHub said:


> This post did not come out that well.


I read his story over there when I first began posting on SI. Mr. Walloped was fed a huge shyte sandwich by his stay-at-home wife. They had been each others only-ever until she had a torrid affair, doing with her AP every sexual thing one female can do with one male. During a period of several months of multiple times a week sexfests with her Viagra popping AP in his Manhattan apartment, they engaged in quite a variety of sexual activities, and just "hung out" in the nude. The transcript of his questioning her was cringe inducing to read. While Mr. Walloped worked to earn a living, there was anal, oral with swallowing, and multiple rounds of conventional sex. The AP used her hard, I imagine Mr. Walloped had to find some way of reordering conventional thinking to reconcile.


----------



## ConanHub

CDR No Longer Lost said:


> *Mr. Walloped:*
> 
> _What terms is that? Where does it say fidelity is part of the agreement? Is it written somewhere? Are there other terms in the marriage contract or just infidelity? What if one person breaks on of those other terms? In that case can only the same term be broken by the other partner or are they all interchangeable? Can one partner use lack of compliance on any one of those other terms as an excuse to commit infidelity? Who gets to make these decisions? Each couple on their own? How does that work?_
> 
> 
> 
> I read his story over there when I first began posting on SI. Mr. Walloped was fed a huge shyte sandwich by his stay-at-home wife. They had been each others only-ever until she had a torrid affair, doing with her AP every sexual thing one female can do with one male. During a period of several months of multiple times a week sexfests with her Viagra popping AP in his Manhattan apartment, they engaged in quite a variety of sexual activities, and just "hung out" in the nude. The transcript of his questioning her was cringe inducing to read. While Mr. Walloped worked to earn a living, there was anal, oral with swallowing, and multiple rounds of conventional sex. The AP used her hard, I imagine Mr. Walloped had to find some way of reordering conventional thinking to reconcile.


She sounds lovely...


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## CDR No Longer Lost

ConanHub said:


> She sounds lovely...


Ha ha... Yep.

I had ample graphic evidence of my XW's sexual peccadilloes with her AP, as with Mrs. Walloped she held nothing back from him.... Nothing. Suffice it to say, I took a different path than Mr. Walloped. To each their own.


----------



## ConanHub

CDR No Longer Lost said:


> Ha ha... Yep.
> 
> I had ample graphic evidence of my XW's sexual peccadilloes with her AP, as with Mrs. Walloped she held nothing back from him.... Nothing. Suffice it to say, I took a different path than Mr. Walloped. To each their own.


That's pretty weird psychology and super destructive. I've been privy to the details of many affairs and most we're just some crappy sex on the side for stupid reasons, emotional support or exit strategies.

Not sure what the **** is going on with cheaters like walloped's ww or your ex.


----------



## CDR No Longer Lost

ConanHub said:


> Not sure what the **** is going on with cheaters like walloped's ww or your ex.


I think it's a dual life thing, they compartmentalize to the extent that when they're with the AP, it's as though nothing else is real. Both his wife and my XW carried on fairly openly. IIRC, his brother saw his wife walking on the sidewalk hand in hand with her AP and notified him. My XW was seen carrying on similarly in public with her AP by a fellow officer's wife, a quick photo was taken and sent to me. Though I will say that any similarities between our situations end there.


----------



## Loveshorror

CDR No Longer Lost said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what the **** is going on with cheaters like walloped's ww or your ex.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's a dual life thing, they compartmentalize to the extent that when they're with the AP, it's as though nothing else is real. Both his wife and my XW carried on fairly openly. IIRC, his brother saw his wife walking on the sidewalk hand in hand with her AP and notified him. My XW was seen carrying on similarly in public with her AP by a fellow officer's wife, a quick photo was taken and sent to me. Though I will say that any similarities between our situations end there.
Click to expand...

I followed your story and admired the decisiveness instead of “waiting at least 6 months before doing anything.” I remember the R at all costs brigade making you out to be in the wrong. Their projection about what they obviously regret doing (R) said it all.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

personofinterest said:


> Sorry, kill me, the Bible doesn't say "Thiu shalt not commit adultery unless your spouse cheats first."
> 
> I understand your opinion, but you can't back it up with religion.


The Bible doesn't exactly elaborate on what happens after adultery. Maybe divorce, turn the other cheek, or an old fashioned stoning are all acceptable. Not sure why a good revenge **** wouldn't be equally acceptable.


----------



## ConanHub

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> The Bible doesn't exactly elaborate on what happens after adultery. Maybe divorce, turn the other cheek, or an old fashioned stoning are all acceptable. Not sure why a good revenge **** wouldn't be equally acceptable.


Any sexual immorality is unacceptable. I wouldn't beat someone up over an RA even though I won't promote one 

Emotions are pretty f'd up after an affair is discovered.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

ConanHub said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Bible doesn't exactly elaborate on what happens after adultery. Maybe divorce, turn the other cheek, or an old fashioned stoning are all acceptable. Not sure why a good revenge **** wouldn't be equally acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> Any sexual immorality is unacceptable. I wouldn't beat someone up over an RA even though I won't promote one
> 
> Emotions are pretty f'd up after an affair is discovered.
Click to expand...

I dont really see it as any more sexually immoral as having sex as a single person. After adultery, you just have a broken marriage. I would hazard to guess that is why it made it to the 10 Commandments. After that, the marriage is nuked.


----------



## ConanHub

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I dont really see it as any more sexually immoral as having sex as a single person. After adultery, you just have a broken marriage. I would hazard to guess that is why it made it to the 10 Commandments. After that, the marriage is nuked.


Any sex outside of marriage fits the category so you have it right.

Adultery does have a few more consequences.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> The Bible doesn't exactly elaborate on what happens after adultery. Maybe divorce, turn the other cheek, or an old fashioned stoning are all acceptable. Not sure why a good revenge **** wouldn't be equally acceptable.


The old testament does. 

:2gunsfiring_v1: :biggrinangelA:


----------



## sokillme

So right now there are two WW lamenting how unevolved their husbands are because they are not moving forward after their cheating. Basically complaining how passive there men are. But that is the thing that was the only type of man that would marry women like this. Most guys would have just said **** off way before they married someone who was so little self aware. 

This is something that has really hit home to me now in all my reading. Not always but lots of times the dynamic was set up before these people even met. It's like some folks in these situations are so broke before they get married that they almost have to marry someone who is just as broken in a different way. Now not always but when there is such dysfunction then almost always. 

On a different note my wife recently told me she couldn't be married to a weak man as she would run all over him. That was like one of the nicest things she ever said to me.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

sokillme said:


> Not always but lots of times the dynamic was set up before these people even met. It's like some folks in these situations are so broke before they get married that they almost have to marry someone who is just as broken in a different way. Now not always but when there is such dysfunction then almost always.


yes indeed but the key there is "not always"....I definitely didnt have this dynamic before marrying my W....I was alpha type, car racing, more into my car than her, blew her off and stood her up all the time, chose my buddies time over her...honestly i was surprised that when I had enough she was still around.....

my biggest blunder was not really thinking anything of the childhood sex abuse she told me about before getting married....I can recall back still the pain in her face when she told me and I didnt even know what to make of it, she said it was in the past so I just said "ok"....little did I know....


----------



## Goose54

MyRevelation said:


> Honestly, TAM enables dysfunction too. We have an unbelievable story in the private forum that you can check in on every month and nothing changes. He keeps making the same terrible decisions over and over and a specific group, of mostly women, just keep propping up his inability to make a decision and stick with it.
> 
> If you believe him, which I really don’t, he may be the most pathetic willing cuckold on the internet and we just keep on enabling him to keep on screwing himself.
> 
> Also, if he really is for real, he’s way too much of a troubled puppy to be helped by cyber psycho babble and/or hand holding. He needs serious and long term professional psychiatric treatment.
> 
> I suppose I’m just venting at the overall stupidity of engaging in those who are either trolls or past the point of casual help.
> 
> Take my rant for what I was paid to write it.


THIS, stated my opinion long ago and got chewed up, spit out and walked on for by the little circle over there conjuring his BS. Demonstrated their hypocrisy when he himself strayed. If you go against the party line there you get smashed by the group. Now you have the same circle posting on this thread. Hummmmm


Deejo said:


> Speaking from the moderating side of the fence, the mods here in all of my tenure have not interacted much, which I feel is good. Generally the focus is always on trying to maintain some semblance of decorum. But there is no 'group think'.


Really, maybe you should go check this thread out, you have a mod all over it contributing to the ****-sandwich.


----------



## farsidejunky

@Goose54:

I can only assume you are referring to me.

I think one of the two of us is misunderstanding what @Deejo is saying in the quoted post...which is consistent with his observation that we are not interacting much.

As to the rest of your post: anything I have posted that did not include the intro "speaking as a moderator" is as open for criticism as any other poster or post, provided said criticism does not otherwise violate the rules of this site.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Goose54

Was that you that “like” the post that stated I was unethical and unprofessional amongst other things?

Nope, wasn’t you sir.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> So right now there are two WW lamenting how unevolved their husbands are because they are not moving forward after their cheating. Basically complaining how passive there men are. But that is the thing that was the only type of man that would marry women like this. Most guys would have just said **** off way before they married someone who was so little self aware.
> 
> This is something that has really hit home to me now in all my reading. Not always but lots of times the dynamic was set up before these people even met. It's like some folks in these situations are so broke before they get married that they almost have to marry someone who is just as broken in a different way. Now not always but when there is such dysfunction then almost always.
> 
> On a different note my wife recently told me she couldn't be married to a weak man as she would run all over him. That was like one of the nicest things she ever said to me.


Yeah, I have kept up with some of that. It is so pitiful in so many ways.

Now, there are some men, that have reconciled that I do not DISAGREE with, it is not for me, but I can see it. 

And With OP here on this thread, and his recent post on the other site, you know, I don't really know what to say. 

However, part of me thinks that if he is having so much trouble at this stage of the game, then just end it. 

But I don't dare say that over there. He would be within his rights and who know, maybe he can't get over it, I would not blame him if he could not. But I would not blame him if he did either. 

That one is a hard one. But I do not like the way those people went after him at all...

His wife has not posted in a while, I wonder what she is doing, not doing with all of this. 

That is a hard one...

Edit: Oh and everything I wrote is about the wrong thread, what a moron...


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

SI is cringe inducing. What kind of double think do you have to perform to simultaneously love your WS but hate the AP? 

Just came across a thread about WW's getting played by their AP. GoldenR nailed it, you can't get played if you are married!


----------



## GoldenR

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Just came across a thread about WW's getting played by their AP. GoldenR nailed it, you can't get played if you are married!


That thread turned into a spectacular ****show! Lol. It's now locked.


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## sokillme

GoldenR said:


> That thread turned into a spectacular ****show! Lol. It's now locked.


Well the usual suspects got involved.


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## stillthinking

SMS never disappoints. She brings the crazy on like nobody else.

It seems like the BH's who are staying with their cheating wives, are spinning some kind of Pain selecting wheel of fortune. 

Every month or so they spin the wheel....it lands on the **** Sandwich du jour.

Discuss it to exhaustion. 

Spin the Wheel. 

Rinse and repeat.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

stillthinking said:


> SMS never disappoints. She brings the crazy on like nobody else.
> 
> It seems like the BH's who are staying with their cheating wives, are spinning some kind of Pain selecting wheel of fortune.
> 
> Every month or so they spin the wheel....it lands on the **** Sandwich du jour.
> 
> Discuss it to exhaustion.
> 
> Spin the Wheel.
> 
> Rinse and repeat.


The elderly lady who has been on the site since the dawn of creation? Yea, she is something else. Claims she is completely healed, yet the venom she still spews at her husband's AP is most telling. The AP is probably in a nursing home by now with a nurse emptying her bed pan all day/night, yet she is still the same coniving medusa that entrapped her poor husband in her snare some 40 or 50 years ago. 

And her queenship of the high horse parade that an RA is worse than the initial affair gets quite nauseating.


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## Doc Who

Ah SMS - the self-designated Queen Bee of the Hive. Fall in line with her or suffer.

But I digress.

SI is a place of extreme sadness. Very few recovery stories - mostly acceptance. Take the case of a really respected poster named Wincing at Light. The dude is smart, articulate, and successful. And his wife is a serial cheater, bi-polar sack of human excrement. But he tried hard to make it work. Well, he found out after 11 or so years of "R" that she was cheating again with the first OM.

I'm not saying that is exclusively a function of SI. But sticking with a cheater will get you a better than average chance of that pain all over again. And SI demands you support that...

WTF?


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## alte Dame

The RA question is interesting to me because, for me, it's a matter of word choice.

If I were in a position to make the RA decision it wouldn't be a revenge affair. It would be a freedom affair. Or detachment affair. Or moving on affair.

If you take the 'revenge' out of it, then the discussion changes quite a bit. The people at SI understandably twist themselves into pretzels about this because the people having the so-called RA's are often posters they like. Many are separated and in the process of moving on.

In any event, I think the TAM reaction is more realistic. There's a spectrum of viewpoints that is heard. For me, if I were in the position to have an RA, I would definitely go for it and call it my 'attempting to recover my self-worth' liaison or my 'it's my turn to have some fun' relationship. Whether it is ill advised for me would depend on the specific circumstance.


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## faithfulman

alte Dame said:


> The RA question is interesting to me because, for me, it's a matter of word choice.
> 
> If I were in a position to make the RA decision it wouldn't be a revenge affair. It would be a freedom affair. Or detachment affair. Or moving on affair.
> 
> If you take the 'revenge' out of it, then the discussion changes quite a bit. The people at SI understandably twist themselves into pretzels about this because the people having the so-called RA's are often posters they like. Many are separated and in the process of moving on.
> 
> In any event, I think the TAM reaction is more realistic. There's a spectrum of viewpoints that is heard. For me, if I were in the position to have an RA, I would definitely go for it and call it my 'attempting to recover my self-worth' liaison or my 'it's my turn to have some fun' relationship. Whether it is ill advised for me would depend on the specific circumstance.


Who is to say it is even an "affair"? If you decide to do your thing with someone else after being cheated on, it's just living your life in my opinion.

Fidelity is an agreement. When one partner violates the agreement, what is there to be faithful to anymore?


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## sokillme

alte Dame said:


> The RA question is interesting to me because, for me, it's a matter of word choice.
> 
> If I were in a position to make the RA decision it wouldn't be a revenge affair. It would be a freedom affair. Or detachment affair. Or moving on affair.
> 
> If you take the 'revenge' out of it, then the discussion changes quite a bit. The people at SI understandably twist themselves into pretzels about this because the people having the so-called RA's are often posters they like. Many are separated and in the process of moving on.
> 
> In any event, I think the TAM reaction is more realistic. There's a spectrum of viewpoints that is heard. For me, if I were in the position to have an RA, I would definitely go for it and call it my 'attempting to recover my self-worth' liaison or my 'it's my turn to have some fun' relationship. Whether it is ill advised for me would depend on the specific circumstance.


I personally think the marriage is over once cheating happens. In any other legal agreement when one party brakes the agreement the contract ends. However I always say better to move on before you find someone new, because what if that someone new has the potential to be someone great? If you are still married technically you ruin your chances of starting out on the best foot. It's just a bad idea strategically.


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## GoldenR

Back on topic, RC is back.


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## Blondilocks

GoldenR said:


> Back on topic, RC is back.


He is a genuinely stupid man. He refers to her 6 year long-term affair as an indiscretion. WTH? Just what the mother-lovin' hell? He doesn't think she "understands". LOL - uh, no, dude - it's you. She must be embarrassed to be married to someone so friggin' stupid.


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## GoldenR

I ventured over to LS for the first time in a long time. The Rainbow is a real piece of work. Her H must have zero self esteem


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## The Middleman

GoldenR said:


> I ventured over to LS for the first time in a long time. The Rainbow is a real piece of work. Her H must have zero self esteem


I question if that one is even real. No man I know is that much of a simp.


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## Loveshorror

I notice a lot of people at SI make excuses for barcher. Despite being a BS, has many issues that include violence. Anyways, Hired a lawyer in 2018, but didn’t follow up with her for many months though she clearly dropped the ball and committed malpractice, ignoring his case. However, he knew this and did nothing but leave a few VMs for the lawyer. Thereafter, was surprised to receive a default judgment. He then idiotically had his ex send him a copy of the judgment against him.

Then admitted to a firm move out date, despite never having been formally notified or served. Surprise - temp TRO from the WW, though he was warned of the possibility. Yet the SI Hopium crew, though pointing some of these issues out to him, tell him he is in the right and strong. who sits around waiting for an incompetent attorney for at least 7 mos (he did)? Still no real plan, except staying with gf, and is mad wife won’t lift the TRO.


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## Nucking Futs

Just got my first ban from SI. Apparently I was "too aggressive". It's why I rarely post there, too many candy asses.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Nucking Futs said:


> Just got my first ban from SI. Apparently I was "too aggressive". It's why I rarely post there, too many candy asses.


That place needs infused with some testosterone. I tried for a bit but like you got banned. Its like an endless PMS machine.


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## Blondilocks

Loveshorror said:


> I notice a lot of people at SI make excuses for barcher. Despite being a BS, has many issues that include violence. Anyways, Hired a lawyer in 2018, but didn’t follow up with her for many months though she clearly dropped the ball and committed malpractice, ignoring his case. However, he knew this and did nothing but leave a few VMs for the lawyer. Thereafter, was surprised to receive a default judgment. He then idiotically had his ex send him a copy of the judgment against him.
> 
> Then admitted to a firm move out date, despite never having been formally notified or served. Surprise - temp TRO from the WW, though he was warned of the possibility. Yet the SI Hopium crew, though pointing some of these issues out to him, tell him he is in the right and strong. who sits around waiting for an incompetent attorney for at least 7 mos (he did)? Still no real plan, except staying with gf, and is mad wife won’t lift the TRO.


That fella is a hot mess. He could use a life coach or 3.


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