# Healing but hurting- wife confesses to EA from years ago



## Music_Man

Six years ago, to be exact. I'll try to keep this to a 'readable' length, but there is a lot to tell here. First, let me just say a HUGE thank you to the CWI regulars and the TAM family. Many of you have helped me (and I'm sure countless others) without even knowing it. After all, while we all have unique stories to tell, many of the circumstances are universal. So, let's get to it...

My W and I are both in our mid-forties, and we've been together basically forever. Began dating in high school, married while in college, and we will have been married for 24 years later this year, together for 29. We have three kids- a college student, a high school student, and a middle school student. Fun times there. Both of our careers are currently in outstanding shape. We live in a coastal area where it's warm- that should be enough for now.

The EA took place from roughly summer of 2012 thru the spring of 2013. I suspected the OM of having an interest in my W early on, and began to suspect my W of at least having a crush on him, but my head kept telling me "there's no way this sweet little gal of mine could engage in such a thing", and I had nothing whatsoever by way of proof. I also had my head buried in my own world at the time, as I was in deep depression from 2011 thru the spring of 2013. So let's back up and explain how we got to the 2012-2013 EA, and the depression that while does NOT excuse my W's behavior, certainly helped the cause and kept me from being my 'normal' self. The normal me would've been all over this and would've had my radar up- and would've certainly been more vigilant. That I suspected something and didn't dig into it immediately is the hardest part of all of this- it's overwhelming me at times. The biggest thing that caused this though? Boundaries- we had never really established clear boundaries for the opposite sex, work mates, etc.

The particulars- In 2010, I was managing a division of a large manufacturing firm. Unfortunately, this was right smack dab in the middle of the recession, and this particular sector was floundering. My management team had shrunken from eight people to three, and I was working long hours and often bringing work home. I was in a precarious position, to put it mildly. My W, on the other hand, was assistant manager and nursing leader for a busy operating room at a medium-sized hospital, and her career was riding a steadily upward trajectory. In the summer of 2010, the hospital brought on 2 young surgeons (both early forties at the time) to replace part of an aging staff. Yep, you guessed it- a Dr/Nurse affair :|

From early on, my W came home excited about the new hires, and the excitement seemed to be not about the Dr's themselves personally, but rather that the hospital had hired a couple of young, vibrant, personable, fun guys that were apparently respectful and affable with the nursing and OR staff. Turns out they were _very_ affable. Soon though, my W talked about one of them in particular quite often. She would come home talking about the jokes he would tell and how funny he was, how he was a triathlete so he and my W had something in common (W is an avid runner, marathons and so forth). I mentioned that she sure was talking about this guy a lot, and asked if she had a crush on him. She laughed it off, stating that "he's just a fun guy like you are babe, you'd like him!...he's always cutting up and keeping it light-hearted. Don't be silly- he's just more open and friendly than all of those old Docs we're used to". I thought- she's right, and she would NEVER in a million years find someone else charming enough to actually fall for them. Last sentence sound familiar, anyone?

This pattern continued into 2011, and I became more and more immersed in trying to salvage my job. Eventually, by late spring, our division was shut down, and operations moved to the Far East. The company offered a nice severance for those who wanted to pursue or continue their education. My W encouraged me to take it, and to take a couple of years off to finish my degree and be a stay at home dad while doing so. I had not finished my degree, as my parents were killed in a car accident at the end of my sophomore year in college, and I left school to help run the family business for a few years. So, reluctantly, I decided to take her up on it. It wasn't long though before I slid into depression, and then into deep depression. The whole idea of being a SAHD and a full time student was very emasculating to me, particularly when I would attend a work function for my W, and all of these doctors would ask "so, Music_Man, what do you do?". Not fun, and I soon began lashing out at my W on a regular basis- I simply wasn't very pleasant to be around. I suppose I was subconsciously resenting her thriving career, but I was most definitely resenting her always coming home in a good mood and talking about her new friendships- especially the one with the POSOM. 

By winter and into spring of 2012, they were becoming closer as friends, though I rarely saw her texting him. I checked her phone a few times but never saw anything alarming. A few texts from the OM, but mostly about cases and patients, with the occasional link to some running events and so forth. (NOTE: My W paid the bills at this time, and If I had ever bothered to open a bill and compare to her phone, I would've seen a number of deleted texts beginning in the summer of 2012 and into 2013.) Meanwhile, I was mired in schoolwork, taking as many as five classes each term in an effort to finish as quickly as possible. I was in a depression funk, I was doing all of the household work, handling the kids, and was bogged down in schoolwork for a difficult degree program- so I just didn't pay attention to the signs. We were fighting fairly often, about nothing in particular. Our sex life, well, it sucked. Three times per month was considered 'often' for us, with once or twice being the norm. She wasn't on her phone much (at least, not in front of me) or hiding it, but something was just 'different'...that gut feeling that something with her and this guy just wasn't on the up and up. By this time, the POSOM was showing up at all of her running events. I accused her of having a 'running boyfriend' and a 'stalker'. We fought hard over this, with her vehemently denying he was anything other than a work colleague or casual friend. I had no proof, her hours were accounted for, and I always went to her running events- so they certainly weren't hooking up before or after a race. Still...my gut...and the way they interacted, just seemed a little too comfortable, if that makes sense. But again _not my sweet little wifey...she's right, I'm the crazy one..._, and he was always cordial if not downright buddy-buddy with me when I was around him. It was easy to see why my W let her guard down around him.

Moving into 2013, I was finishing up school and had just landed a really good job that would start in late spring. W and I were up and down, still fighting occasionally and still mentioning the OM every now and then. Once my job started, my focus shifted. I also started slowly climbing out of the depression hole, as my confidence started to grow. Oh, I also started working out more during this new phase. I always worked out some before all of this and was in pretty good shape, but I took it up a couple of notches here. And for those wondering, the POSOM wasn't better looking than me- we were on equal footing with me holding a slight advantage. I mentioned that he was a triathlete, but he sucked at it- my W always finished well ahead of him in any events they were in. 

Around early summer of 2013, something changed in my wife- she would come home in not-so-great moods, and didn't mention POSOM for several weeks. By the fall of 2013, things were changing at the hospital as well. They were planning a merger with a larger healthcare system, and were already cutting back. The POSOM was a visiting MD as it was, and had cut back has case load tremendously at W's hospital- to one day per week with the occasional weekend on-call (W was not on his on-call team, if you were wondering). W's hours and her teams hours were cut drastically. My W and I basically switched places- it was now my career that was soaring, and hers that was in a funk. By the end of 2013, she took a job as a fill-in-as-needed OR nurse and supervisor for a thriving surgery center a half-hour away. This is a key moment, as it would eventually get her away from POSOM for good.

By spring of 2014, W was in a depression herself- watching the OR she worked so hard to build crumble and be taken away. Her duties at the new location were growing though, and she was offered a management position which she accepted by late spring. She had mentioned over the previous few months how Dr. POSOM had changed- they were no longer friends and he was berating her and staff out in the open on a regular basis. When her team threw her a going away party as she left permanently for the new job, I attended. POSOM was there that day but did not come by to say goodbye or anything- not sure if he knew I was there or not. W mentioned later that it bothered her that after the years and cases and runs and everything that he didn't bother to show up even for a piece of cake. It bothered me- pissed me off- that SHE was bothered, but, again, she explained it away. However, my head was no longer buried in the sand as it was from 2012/2013, and I was concerned that I had missed something. I was damn right. That she left for a much better situation and left his presence altogether sort of pushed my curiosity away though. I was now paying the bills with my W, and I never saw a text from him and she didn't mention him after she left- other than to say she was glad to be away from him and that 'I guess he was a jerk after all". I checked her phone a few weeks after she left, and she had deleted his contact from her phone.

The next few years saw healing in our relationship and both of our careers take off. My W is now at the top of her game, and has great people around her- no toxic friends, no out of line Dr's- a great overall situation. I know her work mates very well- no concerns here, and boundaries are in place. I'm also doing well in my career, having garnered numerous awards and so forth over the past several years. Finances are good and our kids are all doing well for the most part. In 2015 we went on an extended vacation for just the two of us, and that seemed to be the catalyst to spark the romance again.

Fast forward to 2018, we were drawing closer than ever. Good to great sex life, supportive of each other, completely transparent with phones and other devices, etc. Still, in the back of my mind, I always wondered if something beyond friendship happened between Dr. POSOM and her...I joined TAM last year, and all of a sudden I was VERY concerned after reading some stories in this very forum. I read the standard evidence gathering posts, which while I thought would not help since so many years had passed DID actually help and ended up really helping to prove/disprove some things. 

Into 2019, our relationship was AMAZING, to say the least. Extremely supportive of each other, dates at least once per week- often for the whole weekend, sex life better than I could possibly imagine. Then, a bomb dropped from out of nowhere. In early Feb, my W and I were talking about a couple we knew where the husband had cheated. I made the statement that "I just couldn't believe that this guy would ever do anything like that". My W's response floored me- "you never know. Anyone can cheat given the right set of circumstances and no boundaries...I mean I myself could have been in trouble..." she tapered off and tried to change the subject, but I knew she was trying to tell me something and I knew my fears were about to come to light. 

I let this go for a few days while I tried to gather my thoughts and formulate the questions I needed to ask. My W, I'm sure, also needed to know that if she confessed I wouldn't revert to my old ways of yelling and talking down to her. I hadn't done that in years, and I'm sure she was concerned that this would set me back and also destroy the marriage. On Feb 23rd, D-day hit. I asked the questions, and got detailed answers. The pain of confirming my suspicions, and that I had my head buried in my own depression and my own world...it has utterly shocked me to the core. As the confession wore on (we talked for hours), I was adamant that I just didn't believe her- I thought it was a full-blown PA and besides, how would I know? I told her about Dr Fone and so forth, but would need the old phone and the old laptop. She said "wait right here". She never threw out the phone- in fact, her last 3 phones are sitting in her closet, and the laptop was in a storage closet as well, along with my old college laptop. We ended up using several apps, and I called the cell provider to provide old phone records so we could compare the numbers. Almost 100% of texts were recovered simply by restoring her phone from iTunes- I'm now a believer in these recovery apps!! She was also very open, extremely remorseful, and offered to take a poly- she showed me a stack of 3-4 books on infidelity that she's read over the years, so she was prepared. I declined on the poly, as I believe the texts help to confirm things- and that same gut that told me something was amiss all those years ago, now tells me that she's fully transparent. Some of you veterans may disagree here, but since she brought up the poly and I have these text messages which indicate things did stop when she says they did- I'm convinced. My therapist agrees- yes, I went to IC just 3 days after D-day, and have been going a couple of times per month since. It has helped.

The affair began in spring/late spring of 2012. Started with him pumping her up "can't run this OR without you...you are sooooo amazing" type of texts, with W just being gracious and so forth. That led to "you are an amazing person" to eventually "you are so beautiful" to "damn girl, you are soooo hot in those purple scrubs" to much worse. By late 2013 it was sexting- no pictures and he never asked for any or sent any (he was married as well), and most of the texts were during work hours while he was on his office days and not around, or just after work, which is why I never saw her acting suspicious around her phone- she wasn't texting him often from home, and I never saw her checking her phone on weekends if we were out and about. It wasn't every day either- not even every week. And it would be a dozen or less texts- not hundreds and not for days on end, which is what I had expected to find. So while it WAS bad and WAS an affair, it could have been much much worse, and was definitely headed that way. Despite my W's protests, I think if she hadn't left this particular job and if I hadn't climbed out of my mental funk, I know in my heart it would've turned into a PA. You can only talk so much about this stuff before you do it, and opportunities would've been there. She also never disparaged me or the marriage. Only positive things about me. She never told him she was falling in love with him- it was strictly friendly banter, then flirting, and yes- more explicit and suggestive texts. W once asked him "what is this??" His answer: "just having some fun".

As far as how do I know it didn't go physical- a couple of months before it ended, he tried to kiss her. It was after a case and people were just in the OR next room over, cleaning up. W had to bring some charts into his desk area for signature. As she handed the chart off, he moved in and quickly put his lips on hers- she pushed him away immediately, according to her. She offered this up and all other affair details before we got the texts, btw. The texts immediately after went like this:

Him- Why did you push me away?? You've given every indication you would do that and more...now I have egg on my face and feel like a fool"

W- I'm sorry. I know what I said in our texts, but as you said before- that was all in fun, and not real. I'm not an affair person- my husband and I are true loves and we can't do this. I'm sorry.

Him- You're right, you're right. I'm married too and love my wife. Still, I need more than that- I feel so close to you, I can't stand it. Can we at least try this again?

W- I don't think so. Too many people around anyway- we have too much to lose with our careers as well.

Him- Then let's go somewhere. After work next week. I'll figure something out so you are comfortable.

W- No, not going anywhere. Not going to be comfortable with that. Gotta go.

No response from him. This essentially corroborates her story. W is very remorseful over this, as she knows it wouldn't have happened without her active flirty and sexual texting participation. The texts really cooled after this episode, then ramped back up one last round. He kept asking on multiple occasions for my W to meet him somewhere or come to the on-call lounge or something. W always said no or made an excuse. Finally, he said "One last time- hop in my car and go with me somewhere- please" W responded- "NO. I'm not now or ever going anywhere with you or doing anything physical with you. I'm married and love my husband" His response- "then this is over- don't contact me again". And that was basically it. There were a few work related texts, and he tried at one point to start things up again but my W's eyes were now open and the fog had been lifted- she shut him down and finally texted him to text her subordinate with patient and case details going foward- don't text her again. He texted her back with one word "tease". And soon after this she left altogether- which is also key. A few months later, he was caught in the act by his own wife with a hospital secretary. My W and I discovered recently that he has destroyed no fewer than 3 marriages, and very nearly ours. That no one knows about this affair with my W is a miracle unto itself. Our theory is that since he got 'shot down', he wouldn't dare talk about it. He's in another city, about an hour away. I saw him recently at an airport nearby- looks awful. Gained weight, aged badly. This does my heart good.

So, you might ask, why am I here? I have what I feel is the knowledge I need to make an educated and calculated decision. W and I are both in IC- I told her it was mandatory if she wanted me to R. No objection from her. R is going as well or maybe better than expected. I've come a long way since leaving the house for a week, starting the day after D-day (great decision- I was able to break down completely, and not be clouded by anything other than my raw emotions). W has been so transparent since D-day, it's even a bit silly ("you'll see a new contact on my phone, 'Jane Doe'. She's a new scrub tech. Here's her Facebook page so you know it's her and not some a-hole doctor" sort of thing). So, I'm here for three reasons:

1. It was therapeutic to type all of this out, especially to an audience who 'gets it'. 
2. Hoping to hear other takes on this story. For those that have chosen to R, what are the things you'd do over again if given the chance?
3. Hoping to help others with my story.

And I'm still struggling with the length of time she held this in. Lying to my face all of those times before, during, and after the affair that there was nothing to it. But I'm working on it, and I'm way ahead of the curve right now. W is doing all of the right things, and has been nothing but remorseful, sorrowful, and has been understanding on the days when I just can't talk. We're back to date nights and pretty much a 'normal' routine. Yes, read several books myself, including MMSL. That, IC, and TAM forums have been a Godsend. 

If there's one thing, ONE BIG THING I can say in closing it's this: I see plenty of posts on here every week to the effect of is my W/H cheating? The BIG thing is: if you know your spouse and know them well (and you should), TRUST. YOUR. GUT. Don't delay!! Had I been vigilant and 'present' and guarding the marriage as I should have, I would have trusted my instincts and blew this thing up before it really got started. I buried my head in the sand and paid the price- very nearly the ultimate price. Don't let this be you!!

One final thing- I saved this for last as many will turn away if they see God or anything religious in a post. Short and sweet- spiritual life was terrible from about 2008-2012. We're in a great church now with a pastor that has openly talked about his own relational struggles and the value of both IC and MC. He'll come and have a beer with me- just a genuine guy with real understanding of what this 'Jesus' thing is. This has also helped tremendously, and helped greatly to rebuild our relationship in 2013-present. 

Sorry for the crazy long length and all of the details, but I'd rather get it all out there rather than trickling it in, 20 posts down the line. 

I hope to be a regular contributor here going forward. Thanks all!! 

Music_Man


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## alte Dame

I would say that you dodged a bullet, except that you really didn't. You got hit, just not fatally.

She was sexting with this creep and only put the brakes on at the last moment. Her boundaries are very poor. If she meant what she wrote, that you are her true love, then there is no room for the sexting and flirting. It sounds like she has recovered herself and has established appropriate boundaries. Flattery and ego-stroking can go a long way toward battering through those boundaries, so she needs to be constantly vigilant.

Yes, she cheated. I'm sorry this had to happen to you. Stay vigilant yourself. She needs to keep proving that she is safe.


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## TAMAT

MM,

Did you expose the OM professionally so that he can't be employed again?

I would give your WW a poly 2 years from now.

Does your WW say there was no masturbation or photo sharing?


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## the guy

Go for the poly and get this mess cleared up once and for all.

If you are going to forgive her then know exactly what you are forgiving her for!

God knows what we can and can not handle.....so it's time to clear/clean the air on this crap your old lady created.


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## the guy

to late... this was me....

You should of bailed in 2010...



FYI...went through the same **** from 1998 to 2010....with your kind of time line there is more to this ice burg then what you just posted.

Sorry man but it's time to get rid of the elephant in the room.

Maybe I should have bailed in 1998, but my old lady stuck around.


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## BigbadBootyDaddy

I was pretty sure you were talking about the same Dr my ExW cheated with. However the age doesn't add. But a Dr, a Triathlete, and numerous affairs. 

In retrospect I should’ve tipped off his wife (given that they were a family of faith). But I made every mistake in the book. 

Glad you were able to get past this.


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## Music_Man

TAMAT said:


> MM,
> 
> 
> 
> Did you expose the OM professionally so that he can't be employed again?
> 
> 
> 
> I would give your WW a poly 2 years from now.
> 
> 
> 
> Does your WW say there was no masturbation or photo sharing?


Yes, she claims no masturabting or photos. No photos in any of the texts, never saw a text where they talked about it or asked each other for a pic. We share a PC, nowhere "known" that pics could be hidden. 

This was a big concern for me, and potentially a breaking point. I still may do the polly down the road. Makes me sick to think about it- just sick.


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## Music_Man

alte Dame said:


> I would say that you dodged a bullet, except that you really didn't. You got hit, just not fatally.
> 
> 
> 
> She was sexting with this creep and only put the brakes on at the last moment. Her boundaries are very poor. If she meant what she wrote, that you are her true love, then there is no room for the sexting and flirting. It sounds like she has recovered herself and has established appropriate boundaries. Flattery and ego-stroking can go a long way toward battering through those boundaries, so she needs to be constantly vigilant.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, she cheated. I'm sorry this had to happen to you. Stay vigilant yourself. She needs to keep proving that she is safe.


Your first sentence says it all. Feel like I dodged an RPG but still got zapped in several places with an AK47. Feel some relief on some aspects, but totally sick in others. When your spouse shows you a side or shows you something you never dreamed they were capable of, it shatters your whole world.

She never sexted me, for the record, which sucks big time.


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## MattMatt

@Music_Man Thanks for sharing this with us.

I wish you and your family well.


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## Music_Man

BigbadBootyDaddy said:


> I was pretty sure you were talking about the same Dr my ExW cheated with. However the age doesn't add. But a Dr, a Triathlete, and numerous affairs.
> 
> In retrospect I should’ve tipped off his wife (given that they were a family of faith). But I made every mistake in the book.
> 
> Glad you were able to get past this.


Let me say this about the POSOM- the wife he was with when he was cheating with my W? She was the product of his FIRST (known) affair. She was an employee at another hospital he worked at. I mentioned in my OP that his wife caught him with someone fairly soon after my W. Well, his office manager tipped his wife off. She caught them earlier, and snooped enough to know they were meeting at his office. The wife showed up, stormed in, and got them on video. She exposed them both- but both eventually left before being fired. 

We were lucky...I think he was in a miserable relationship and wanted to sabotage it. Hate guys like this!!


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## farsidejunky

It is a hard pill to swallow finding out then person you trust the most not only doesn't have your back, but is opening up a side of herself to another that is supposed to be only for you.

That said, I think you have a good shot at reconciliation provided you aren't seeing anything through the hopium lens. 

It helps that you handled things well at d-day. I believe that sets the tone for reconciliation.
@No Longer Lonely Husband @ButtPunch @Wazza

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Music_Man

farsidejunky said:


> It is a hard pill to swallow finding out then person you trust the most not only doesn't have your back, but is opening up a side of herself to another that is supposed to be only for you.
> 
> That said, I think you have a good shot at reconciliation provided you aren't seeing anything through the hopium lens.
> 
> It helps that you handled things well at d-day. I believe that sets the tone for reconciliation.
> @No Longer Lonely Husband @ButtPunch
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I seriously think the lessons others have learned here in the CWI forum really helped my focus on D-day. From the list of questions I formulated to the demands I made, to the attitude that I took- some of you folks helped me tremendously. 

It's really the biggest reason I decided to share- so that maybe my story and/or the responses will help others.

As far as the 'hopium' lense, yes, I want to make sure that I'm not blinded by anything. I can state for certain that I never had cause for concern before, and have not since...but I'm watching things with an eagle-eye now, and with the attitude that every guy she comes in contact with is a potential AP. I'm checking texts, emails, Facebook, messenger, call logs- everything I can. We have an app that tracks all our whereabouts in the family- had it for years. Used it mainly for the teenagers, but I watch it for other reasons as well.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> Yes, she claims no masturabting or photos. No photos in any of the texts, never saw a text where they talked about it or asked each other for a pic. We share a PC, nowhere "known" that pics could be hidden.
> 
> This was a big concern for me, and potentially a breaking point. I still may do the polly down the road. Makes me sick to think about it- just sick.


From reading your post and the texts, I think it was physical, too. There are too many places in a hospital to hide and have a sexual encounter. Hospitals are dens of infidelity. Physicians in my opinion are the worst. You should get a poly for peace of mind sir. I think you have been trickle truthed.


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## farsidejunky

Music_Man said:


> I seriously think the lessons others have learned here in the CWI forum really helped my focus on D-day. From the list of questions I formulated to the demands I made, to the attitude that I took- some of you folks helped me tremendously.
> 
> It's really the biggest reason I decided to share- so that maybe my story and/or the responses will help others.
> 
> As far as the 'hopium' lense, yes, I want to make sure that I'm not blinded by anything. I can state for certain that I never had cause for concern before, and have not since...but I'm watching things with an eagle-eye now, and with the attitude that every guy she comes in contact with is a potential AP. I'm checking texts, emails, Facebook, messenger, call logs- everything I can. We have an app that tracks all our whereabouts in the family- had it for years. Used it mainly for the teenagers, but I watch it for other reasons as well.


You know being her warden is not sustainable...right?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Music_Man

farsidejunky said:


> You know being her warden is not sustainable...right?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I know. My therapist intimated as much, but did say it's normal in the beginning and may help to establish certain parameters with the W, but that it can't go on for a long period and won't be healthy for either of us.

And no, if I feel I have to constantly play warden, then this marriage will never work. Part of it is my own guilt for being so lax before, I'm quite certain. I can't believe how blind I was- depression or not. Makes me so angry at myself.


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## rugswept

Your wife's story doesn't sound fake. you were in a bad place during this time, and she was drifting away with some young hot guy showing her all that attention. it's alluring for anyone to be shown attention like that. we're all human. no one is proud of it and disguise and conceal it, as they are drawn deeper into it. the deeper they go, the more they need it and the more they hide it. 

and yes, he really was a POSOM, complete garbage, through and through. he was pretty good at scoring his targets. 

your story shows that anyone can find themselves in cheating situations. so many think it could never happen to them and their spouses would never go off and do these things. experience says otherwise. 

you're dealing with it well and you both sound like terrific people. life has highs and lows and the two of you may have lived through the worst of your lows of your lives. you're both open to each other about it and are trying to deal with it the best you can. 

thanks for sharing your story. it should give others some hope that they can recover from these A messes.


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## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> From reading your post and the texts, I think it was physical, too. There are too many places in a hospital to hide and have a sexual encounter. Hospitals are dens of infidelity. Physicians in my opinion are the worst. You should get a poly for peace of mind sir. I think you have been trickle truthed.


Thanks for chiming in. I sincerely hope you are dead wrong, and it terrifies me to think about it, but I've ran the scenarios through my head so many times I've lost count. I also know that with the track record of this jerk that anything was possible. 

I know this particularly facility inside and out- I'm not sure if that makes it worse...knowing where I would go if I were doing something like this.


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## [email protected]

Music_Man, I can just hear Siegfried's funeral music. I'd put long odds on a PA.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> Thanks for chiming in. I sincerely hope you are dead wrong, and it terrifies me to think about it, but I've ran the scenarios through my head so many times I've lost count. I also know that with the track record of this jerk that anything was possible.
> 
> I know this particularly facility inside and out- I'm not sure if that makes it worse...knowing where I would go if I were doing something like this.


I hope I am wrong, but having a niece and nephew who are doctors I have heard all kinds of stories. About 15 years ago at one of the hospitals in my area an acquaintance of mine caught the doctor who was having an affair with his wife and beat the **** out of him, and divorced his wife. (I would not recommend this route as he could have wound up in jail)My nephews ex-wife was a nurse and hooked up with a married doctor. He was 42 had three children and she was 24.The doc dumped his wife and married her. This stuff is pervasive in hospitals.

From his track record and the intensity of his texts to your wife, my spidey sense says PA.


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## Music_Man

rugswept said:


> Your wife's story doesn't sound fake. you were in a bad place during this time, and she was drifting away with some young hot guy showing her all that attention. it's alluring for anyone to be shown attention like that. we're all human. no one is proud of it and disguise and conceal it, as they are drawn deeper into it. the deeper they go, the more they need it and the more they hide it.
> 
> 
> 
> and yes, he really was a POSOM, complete garbage, through and through. he was pretty good at scoring his targets.
> 
> 
> 
> your story shows that anyone can find themselves in cheating situations. so many think it could never happen to them and their spouses would never go off and do these things. experience says otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> you're dealing with it well and you both sound like terrific people. life has highs and lows and the two of you may have lived through the worst of your lows of your lives. you're both open to each other about it and are trying to deal with it the best you can.
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for sharing your story. it should give others some hope that they can recover from these A messes.


Thanks for the response. Yes, that's the message I want to convey- if it can happen to us, then it can certainly happen to anyone. While cheating is never excusable, circumstances can certainly support it and almost encourage it, especially when boundaries are weak or nonexistent. 

For the record, my W has owned it from D-day on. She's well aware of the damage caused, and seems to understand the effort I'm going to require from her if this reconciliation is to work for the long haul. Still, it won't be easy to rebuild trust, and her profession- well it is what it is, but her boundaries are light years ahead of where they were. Her actions, at least so far, are encouraging. We had a long talk earlier today. I've constructed a detailed timeline and we walked through it. Extremely painful, but very helpful as well just to feel there's a better understanding of the particulars. 

Tremendous loss though- feels like a death...almost indescribable. This R won't happen overnight, for certain.


----------



## MattMatt

It's my guess that good 'old Doctor Dirty was getting flirty with multiple nurses and others and that your wife was one of those who he didn't get beyond the flirty stage with for one reason or another.

However, a polygraph would not hurt at this point.


----------



## Music_Man

MattMatt said:


> It's my guess that good 'old Doctor Dirty was getting flirty with multiple nurses and others and that your wife was one of those who he didn't get beyond the flirty stage with for one reason or another.
> 
> However, a polygraph would not hurt at this point.


I think with my W, and this is her theory as well, he took his time with her because he knew had to. She was a cut above the average skank he had flings with. My W was a decorated nurse and has a strong reputation in the community- lots of community service, outreach, etc. She was employee of the year at this hospital just a few years before he showed up. She wasn't going to be one where he might say "hey, let's go for a quickie in the closet" right off the bat. He had to be calculated if he wanted the ultimate payoff.

He was more patient in his tactics, but I think it was thrill of the hunt for this sicko as much as anything. And he won- she may have escaped the cage, but he certainly caught her in his trap.


----------



## MattMatt

Music_Man said:


> I think with my W, and this is her theory as well, he took his time with her because he knew had to. She was a cut above the average skank he had flings with. My W was a decorated nurse and has a strong reputation in the community- lots of community service, outreach, etc. She was employee of the year at this hospital just a few years before he showed up. She wasn't going to be one where he might say "hey, let's go for a quickie in the closet" right off the bat. He had to be calculated if he wanted the ultimate payoff.
> 
> He was more patient in his tactics, but I think it was thrill of the hunt for this sicko as much as anything. And he won- she may have escaped the cage, but he certainly caught her in his trap.


Just because he was a vile, nasty man does not mean he is without patience.


----------



## Robert22205

Thank you for sharing.

I agree with MattMatt. The OM sounds like a typical player that groomed multiple women simultaneously (each woman at various stages of seduction). 

Not to minimize her behavior but she probably tolerated his attention because he went slowly. Plus he didn't invade her family/marriage space with texts so it was easy for her to compartmentalize, feel she was in control, and convince herself it was harmless. The reality is that when push came to shove - she said no and shut it down. 

You're a lucky man. Although it still hurts, I suggest framing this as a 'test' that your wife passed.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> Tremendous loss though- feels like a death...almost indescribable. This R won't happen overnight, for certain.


No it won’t happen overnight, and an emotional affair in my mind is as bad as a physical affair. You can do it provided the key in Ingredient the is present,that being a remorseful spouse.

My FWW and I are exactly at 3 1/2 years of R
It took me two solid years to trust my wife again.I spent those to years watching her computer,iPad and iPhone I also had her phone where I could track her. I remember into the second month of R when I could not locate her. I triggered
Big time. From the tone of your posts you seem to have what it takes. I sincerely hope your R is a good one.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> No it won’t happen overnight, and an emotional affair in my mind is as bad as a physical affair. You can do it provided the key in Ingredient the is present,that being a remorseful spouse.
> 
> My FWW and I are exactly at 3 1/2 years of R
> It took me two solid years to trust my wife again.I spent those to years watching her computer,iPad and iPhone I also had her phone where I could track her. I remember into the second month of R when I could not locate her. I triggered
> Big time. From the tone of your posts you seem to have what it takes. I sincerely hope your R is a good one.


Thanks for sharing your battle as well. Her attitude and openness have been key- without it, I'd have sent her packing. As long as we stay the course we're on and there are no more 'revelations' to come, I can see a day where we'll be past it...but I don't see a day where I'll ever get over it entirely. 

Just soul crushing...simply crushing.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

My situation was a full blown PA after being married 29 years. The point I am trying to articulate is that you can recover. We have recovered and our marriage is better than ever.it took a lot of hard work. You my want to discuss using Gottman Cards to improve communication. You can download them from an app, or order the printed cards. This helped me and my wife immensely. You can look up the Gottman Institute online.


----------



## Music_Man

Robert22205 said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with MattMatt. The OM sounds like a typical player that groomed multiple women simultaneously (each woman at various stages of seduction).
> 
> 
> 
> Not to minimize her behavior but she probably tolerated his attention because he went slowly. Plus he didn't invade her family/marriage space with texts so it was easy for her to compartmentalize, feel she was in control, and convince herself it was harmless. The reality is that when push came to shove - she said no and shut it down.
> 
> 
> 
> You're a lucky man. Although it still hurts, I suggest framing this as a 'test' that your wife passed.


You sum a lot of it up right here. My W says much of this verbatim- as did my therapist. She said yes, she was arrogant to think she could handle this once the talk turned to flirting and so forth, and that yes, she was able to compartmentalize it as 'work fun' vs family life. She was in way too deep before she realized it...but as I told her- once she was 'there' she was an active participant and 100% responsible (she agrees).

And yes, he said all of the right things. You see, my wife is beautiful- there's not one person on this thread who would disagree. However, her only sibling is several years older, and the other cousins she grew up around were also older. They called her 'stupid' and 'ugly' every day for years. It wasn't until she got into high school and they moved away that she started to move past some of that. So yeah- he scratched her where she itched. She still sometimes would see herself as that little girl who was kicked around and talked about.

And while this affair was going on, my W was in the prime of her life- stunning really, but a real down to earth, girl next door look- very little makeup, no artificial enhancements, just a natural beauty. However, no one, since me, had complemented her this much for this long- and to this degree. And he started by complementing her intelligence and her work skills- for several months- before ever starting the other. 

He really couldn't have played it any better. If he had started with the flirting from the beginning, this wouldn't have worked for him. He's good, I'll give him that.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

If you want good insight into how an affair develops when a player like the doc is involved. There is somewhere on this board F102 Cheaters Script I think it was referred to. You may want to search for that.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> If you want good insight into how an affair develops when a player like the doc is involved. There is somewhere on this board F102 Cheaters Script I think it was referred to. You may want to search for that.


Thanks- I will do just that. Understanding the mindset of both my wife and this POSOM is very helpful as I continue to process and understand.


----------



## TDSC60

If you and your wife have not read "Not just friends" by Shirley Glass, I suggest you do so.

It is like a step by step primer for how emotional affairs can develop with surprising quickness.

My two cents is that anyone who claims to trust 100% is foolish. Knowing the signs and keeping a watchful eye is not invading privacy. It is essential for a good marriage.

One thing that is fairly common to all betrayed husbands is that they never, ever, thought their "good girl" wife could act the way they did. They are shocked by their behavior.

It is like the frog in a pot of slowly heating water. It starts out innocently enough but before you know it, the water is boiling and the frog does not have the energy (or in a wife's case - the desire) to jump out.


----------



## Music_Man

TDSC60 said:


> If you and your wife have not read "Not just friends" by Shirley Glass, I suggest you do so.
> 
> 
> 
> It is like a step by step primer for how emotional affairs can develop with surprising quickness.
> 
> 
> 
> My two cents is that anyone who claims to trust 100% is foolish. Knowing the signs and keeping a watchful eye is not invading privacy. It is essential for a good marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that is fairly common to all betrayed husbands is that they never, ever, thought their "good girl" wife could act the way they did. They are shocked by their behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> It is like the frog in a pot of slowly heating water. It starts out innocently enough but before you know it, the water is boiling and the frog does not have the energy (or in a wife's case - the desire) to jump out.


We've both read "Not Just Friends" within the last 6 weeks or so. Excellent, excellent read.

Edited to say that I've yet to see many books on affair recovery written from the male perspective- most seem to be written by betrayed W's. If anyone knows of good one out there, please pass it along my way. Read a good book by Cindy Beall, Rebuild a Marriage Better Than New, but it did get a little 'female perspective' heavy at times.


----------



## Decorum

MM thanks for sharing. 

I think your perspective on the whole thing is on the money based on what you shared.

I'm glad it went that way, and I think you have a lot to offer here on TAM.

I want to address the issue, "would it have become a PA".

I think the critical point was when she asked, "what is this?"

It is axiomatic with players, that if you get in a womans head she will seduce herself.

Long before the first kiss, a woman has already fantasized about it. True for the whole mating dance.

He was being careful when he said, "it's just fun".

Had he answered it differently, say "I've never met anyone like you, I can't imagine my life with you, and you are so damn hot", then your wife would have begun to fantasize about him as a real lover.

It would have just been a small step for them to exchange, "I love you's".

Women want security and safety and until he began to make some kind of verbal commitment she would be reluctant to risk what she had.

Based on what you shared had he handled it just a little differently there is no doubt in my mind you would be looking at a full on affair.

He is a player, big-time, but a lot of woman have a "player streak" in them. They are the kind that will cheat on special occasions. A trip to Vegas, HS reunion, xmass party, etc, but they are not active players.

He was hoping your wife would have a little, "naughtiness" for cheating. 

She was more careful herself, and was willing to make the best deal for herself she could (him at the time), but she need some more assurance.

She may not even be able to admit this to herself.

It sucks to realize that was your status with her. It is hard to accept, but she was living in a less self-aware existence. 

Her behavior, her modus operandi, was basic instinct at the time.

Often someone doesn't ever realize they are just following their wiring. All those emotional needs, and insecurities spring into our consciousness from some biological imperatives. 

She is likely a much safer partner, and a more self-aware person now.

I say this because I think part of your struggle will be letting go of the pedestal you placed her on.

It is hard to accept that your view of her was underserved, and inaccurate. You want that safe feeling back.

You are probably more safe now than ever because, faithfulness is intentional. 

It reallly isnt fair to the other person to put them on a pedestal, it also tends to make you lazy in the relationship, careless, besides being unrealistic. 

Relationships are not unconditional, they are by definition relational, and transactional. 

I'm just throwing out some things to think about.

What she can admit to is that she was not self-aware enough, and that made her vulnerable. 

Imo you should let it go at that.

I like the quote, "love is just chemicals masquerading as emotions". I think it has some validity unless a person can step back and look at themselves with a measure of objectivity. 

Biology plays a big role.

I hope you find a fuller measure of peace, that your wife continues her work in reconciliation, and I welcome you to TAM.
Regards!


----------



## Music_Man

Decorum said:


> MM thanks for sharing.
> 
> I think your perspective on the whole thing is on the money based on what you shared.
> 
> I'm glad it went that way, and I think you have a lot to offer here on TAM.
> 
> I want to address the issue, "would it have become a PA".
> 
> I think the critical point was when she asked, "what is this?"
> 
> It is axiomatic with players, that if you get in a womans head she will seduce herself.
> 
> Long before the first kiss, a woman has already fantasized about it. True for the whole mating dance.
> 
> He was being careful when he said, "it's just fun".
> 
> Had he answered it differently, say "I've never met anyone like you, I can't imagine my life with you, and you are so damn hot", then your wife would have begun to fantasize about him as a real lover.
> 
> It would have just been a small step for them to exchange, "I love you's".
> 
> Women want security and safety and until he began to make some kind of verbal commitment she would be reluctant to risk what she had.
> 
> Based on what you shared had he handled it just a little differently there is no doubt in my mind you would be looking at a full on affair.
> 
> He is a player, big-time, but a lot of woman have a "player streak" in them. They are the kind that will cheat on special occasions. A trip to Vegas, HS reunion, xmass party, etc, but they are not active players.
> 
> He was hoping your wife would have a little, "naughtiness" for cheating.
> 
> She was more careful herself, and was willing to make the best deal for herself she could (him at the time), but she need some more assurance.
> 
> She may not even be able to admit this to herself.
> 
> It sucks to realize that was your status with her. It is hard to accept, but she was living in a less self-aware existence.
> 
> Her behavior, her modus operandi, was basic instinct at the time.
> 
> Often someone doesn't ever realize they are just following their wiring. All those emotional needs, and insecurities spring into our consciousness from some biological imperatives.
> 
> She is likely a much safer partner, and a more self-aware person now.
> 
> I say this because I think part of your struggle will be letting go of the pedestal you placed her on.
> 
> It is hard to accept that your view of her was underserved, and inaccurate. You want that safe feeling back.
> 
> You are probably more safe now than ever because, faithfulness is intentional.
> 
> It reallly isnt fair to the other person to put them on a pedestal, it also tends to make you lazy in the relationship, careless, besides being unrealistic.
> 
> Relationships are not unconditional, they are by definition relational, and transactional.
> 
> I'm just throwing out some things to think about.
> 
> What she can admit to is that she was not self-aware enough, and that made her vulnerable.
> 
> Imo you should let it go at that.
> 
> I like the quote, "love is just chemicals masquerading as emotions". I think it has some validity unless a person can step back and look at themselves with a measure of objectivity.
> 
> Biology plays a big role.
> 
> I hope you find a fuller measure of peace, that your wife continues her work in reconciliation, and I welcome you to TAM.
> Regards!


Wow, great post! My therapist and I (he's been great, btw) discussed a lot of this. Yes, I had her on such a high pedestal that the fall back to reality has been an unbelieveable shock to the system. This whole thing, if nothing else, has opened my eyes in so many ways to so many things about relationships and life in general. 

Yes, if we can get past this initial crucial time, and if she and I both continue to work and to fight and to be transparent...and well, everything else- then we will BOTH be much better mates because of it.

It just sucks so much that it took something like this to open our eyes. Just makes me sick to the core. But I'm working on it- I don't want to stay mired in this season anymore than is absolutely necessary for proper grieving and healing. 

And yes, Biology does play a role as well- no doubt about that.


----------



## cashcratebob

I think she is being honest. But now it is about your healing. I would tel your wife that she needs to be open to a poly at anytime, because you might realize in some time that you do in fact need that level of assurance.


----------



## Music_Man

On the poly- for those that have gone this route, would you care to share any stories of failure/success/etc?

I know there's 2 camps on TAM- those that oppose them vehemently, stating they are 'junk' science, and those who swear by them. 

I know that for some, it was to call a bluff so to speak, and hope for that parking lot confession. But for those that went through with it- anything to share?

My W is the one who brought it up- offered to take a poly while disclosing (which yes, could be a ploy, but doesn't feel like it...I don't sense dishonesty at this point). She appears to have done her research and was pretty well prepared for D-day...she knew it would come some day, she admitted. I know she lurked on SI for awhile- she admitted that. She had also read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" just late last year (kept a copy in her glove box), so she was planning on talking at some point it seems, with or without my prodding. Not sure that makes me feel any better, just food for thought.


----------



## Mr.Married

Poly seems to be a lot of talk with no actual action. Very few real stories of people that actually made the cheater take one.

I would love to hear some results as well on that front out of curiosity.


----------



## Spicy

I really hope she is being totally honest, and that it stopped before it went into a full physical PA.

My concerns are that with an office place affair, most of it is happening during all those hours they are together, not via texting. 

Plus, you have a Dr and a top notch nurse here, both very smart people. They would know that texting leaves a very easy to follow trail. They could have easily agreed to not do that. 

Personally, I would absolutely do the poly. To make sure the offering of it wasn’t a ploy, and to give yourself full piece of mind that what you are healing from is the full story, and not just the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## AttaBoy

Music_Man said:


> My W is the one who brought it up- offered to take a poly while disclosing (which yes, could be a ploy, but doesn't feel like it...I don't sense dishonesty at this point). She appears to have done her research and was pretty well prepared for D-day...she knew it would come some day, she admitted. I know she lurked on SI for awhile- she admitted that. She had also read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" just late last year (kept a copy in her glove box), so she was planning on talking at some point it seems, with or without my prodding. Not sure that makes me feel any better, just food for thought.


I was very optimistic for you MM until reading this. Why would she prepare for D-Day years after the affair "ended". Why would she do research? I am not trying to be alarmist, but I do wonder if it is possible her research allowed her to create a plausible hard stop for the affair that may have in actuality been when it went underground and become more sophisticated and continued until a much later date. 
I would say poly for sure, you likely have a high level of accuracy up until the end of the texts you recovered. Make sure questions cover the time frame after the recovered information.


----------



## Music_Man

We discussed this at considerable length. Her answer is that she buried the affair deep down in the initial years. She didn't start lurking on forums or reading books until late last year, as our relationship had grown so much and was really "next level" in all aspects, but this was lingering over her head. Guilt...that's really the main thing. She felt guilty of continuing forward without reconciling what she had done. The guilt was consuming her. She did a bible study in early fall that sort of set her on this path. She knew she didn't want to take it to her grave. 

These are her words, but I can't see where she planned some "disclosure session" to keep me off the trail, but I'm not really in a terribly trusting place just yet- so I will continue to monitor behavior and will absolutely STRONGLY consider the poly. I can't see any real harm in doing it at this point.


----------



## SunCMars

If she passes the Poly....Mono returns to your relationship and your' trust.

......................................................

The thing is...

This guilt thing _for her_ seems overblown. 
Why?

Yes, she was overly friendly, yet, she said she did not succumb to his advances.
So, why the overblown guilt?

Because it was an EA?
She felt some love and certainly some desire for the guy.
And she showed it to him, not letting that on to you.
Yes.

Being flirty is not always a sign of any further transgressions being committed.

She has tremendous guilt because she has a 'reason' to.
The texts that you recovered were rather, uh, tame.

Why then...the extreme guilt, the books, the need to confess. 
Something other than guilt may be in play here.

She knows that she must confess...to something.

Why? Because something happened, likely worse and she knows that it will come out eventually. 
Remember, she broke down only when you questioned her. 
She did not voluntarily just blab it out.

Yes, she has guilt. I have no doubt of that.
But, there is more to the story. 
Guilt over minor transgressions is not 'this' large.

She is a very smart lady, she knows she messed up. 
And she is handling this as one who has done a lot of studying.

SI is one such place.
_Surviving Infidelity_, she went there for what?

She browsed there out of guilt and for for tips on how to 'manage' this crisis.
She knows she was Infidelious. 
This is very evident.

Flirting with a co-worker would not have effected such a response.
All those times at work, the two of them alone, and all those running times with him.

Do the poly!

I wish you luck. 

I give it a fifty-fifty chance that she went physical with him. At least kissing and touching was performed.
Why else all the guilt?

The texts to the contrary...they could have been, uh, Doctored.

Just Sayin'




[THM]- THRD




The thing is.....

She either has much more self pride and guilt than most people or she really did go to PA.

At least to kissing and touching.

I see way too much guilt (on her part) for such little sin commited, as presented.


----------



## alte Dame

Your WW was clearly very flattered and definitely didn't want to be 'rude' to the person who was being so nice and supportive to her.

To flip the switch and take it sexual with sexting, she needed some emotional cover and this was provided with a few simple words, almost a catch phrase - 'it's just a little fun.' 

With those words she could both compartmentalize and tell herself that she wasn't threatening her marriage. It's just some fun. No harm, right? (@Decorum mentions this aspect.)

If the POSOM hadn't been so skilled at seduction, if he hadn't understood the power of his turn of phrase, I think it's likely she would have put the kibosh on even the sexting.

Again, it's the boundaries that are important. We have to be able to react in a marriage-appropriate way when our egos are being stroked by other people.

In this case, your WW stopped before permanent damage was done. (Maybe. The choice is yours.) Now, she has to learn how not to get to that point at all.


----------



## Music_Man

SunCMars said:


> If she passes the Poly....Mono returns to your relationship and your' trust.
> 
> 
> 
> ......................................................
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is...
> 
> 
> 
> This guilt thing _for her_ seems overblown.
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, she was overly friendly, yet, she said she did not succumb to his advances.
> 
> So, why the overblown guilt?
> 
> 
> 
> Because it was an EA?
> 
> She felt some love and certainly some desire for the guy.
> 
> And she showed it to him, not letting that on to you.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Being flirty is not always a sign of any further transgressions being committed.
> 
> 
> 
> She has tremendous guilt because she has a 'reason' to.
> 
> The texts that you recovered were rather, uh, tame.
> 
> 
> 
> Why then...the extreme guilt, the books, the need to confess.
> 
> Something other than guilt may be in play here.
> 
> 
> 
> She knows that she must confess...to something.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Because something happened, likely worse and she knows that it will come out eventually.
> 
> Remember, she broke down only when you questioned her.
> 
> She did not voluntarily just blab it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, she has guilt. I have no doubt of that.
> 
> But, there is more to the story.
> 
> Guilt over minor transgressions is not 'this' large.
> 
> 
> 
> She is a very smart lady, she knows she messed up.
> 
> And she is handling this as one who has done a lot of studying.
> 
> 
> 
> SI is one such place.
> 
> _Surviving Infidelity_, she went there for what?
> 
> 
> 
> She browsed there out of guilt and for for tips on how to 'manage' this crisis.
> 
> She knows she was Infidelious.
> 
> This is very evident.
> 
> 
> 
> Flirting with a co-worker would not have effected such a response.
> 
> All those times at work, the two of them alone, and all those running times with him.
> 
> 
> 
> Do the poly!
> 
> 
> 
> I wish you luck.
> 
> 
> 
> I give it a fifty-fifty chance that she went physical with him. At least kissing and touching was performed.
> 
> Why else all the guilt?
> 
> 
> 
> The texts to the contrary...they could have been, uh, Doctored.
> 
> 
> 
> Just Sayin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- THRD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is.....
> 
> 
> 
> She either has much more self pride and guilt than most people or she really did go to PA.
> 
> 
> 
> At least to kissing and touching.
> 
> 
> 
> I see way too much guilt (on her part) for such little sin commited, as presented.


I haven't disclosed to the board the verbiage from some of the sexting- it was bad. It just makes me sick to recant it. Certainly bad enough that someone from a more conservative background (speaking sexually and so forth, and religiously, not necessarily politically) would be very guilty.

I think the texts are the absolute reason he went in for a kiss and acted shocked that she pulled away. He was telling her point blank what he wanted to do to her and she was not stopping it- though she would often say something like- "now that's not something I would do! Gross!" or "wouldn't you just like to hold me instead? You've never even touched me and you me want to do this?? Why does it always have to turn to sex talk with you?" or "doc, let me remind you that we're both married" or something...BUT she would also say things like "that sounds nice...I wish we could, but I'm married" or a response to him like "well what would you do if was there sitting in your lap" then responding to that in kind. It wasn't benign- it was pure filth. It would be enough to cause me to have extreme guilt for certain. 

But I get what you are saying- and it's not lost on me, I can assure you. I'm not burying my head in the sand these days.


----------



## SunCMars

Thanks..

What you just wrote makes it better.

Better, from a worst case scenario.

What hurts here, is that she led him on...she was a tease.

She enjoyed the back and forth....the friction.....of his words.

She let it happen.

Yes, she was infidelious.

I think you can work through this if their lips or other regions did not meet, or rub.

And if she passes the Parrot test. If she answers Polly properly.

I see hope.

I like hope, even if she is normally a mirage. Not a french fighter jet.

Good luck.





[THM]- Nemesis


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I for one actually believe her, unusual for me. And the only reason I think that is what you actually got to read that played out in the texts. If they had been physical, there for sure would have been mentions of it between them. 

I think she kept mum for two reasons. One is guilt, she couldnt believe she let herself get sucked into the whole thing, and the things she said she is probably appalled with herself. And two, she likely didnt think of it as an affair, this is a mistake that seems to be pretty common. People think because there was nothing physical happening that it doesnt count as an actual affair. I do commend her for being so open once it was finally out there.


----------



## Music_Man

3Xnocharm said:


> I for one actually believe her, unusual for me. And the only reason I think that is what you actually got to read that played out in the texts. If they had been physical, there for sure would have been mentions of it between them.
> 
> 
> 
> I think she kept mum for two reasons. One is guilt, she couldnt believe she let herself get sucked into the whole thing, and the things she said she is probably appalled with herself. And two, she likely didnt think of it as an affair, this is a mistake that seems to be pretty common. People think because there was nothing physical happening that it doesnt count as an actual affair. I do commend her for being so open once it was finally out there.


The texts are absolutely a big deal here. Thank God for iPhones and Macbooks- having that combination, along with regular iTunes backups, made getting the deleted texts back actually rather simple (and Dr. Fone- good program). I'm lucky in this aspect. The only portion I'm missing is about 2-3 weeks of texts from late 2014 when she upgraded her phone. However, she had already left the hospital by this time, and had no communication from him for several months leading up to that upgrade, and none after, and his contact was deleted that year as well. And for those that wonder- there are no gaming apps or 3rd party texting apps on the old or new phones. It was standard iMessages, which was- unbeknownst to them, smart people that they are- a little careless. 

The texts give me hope, as I fully expected to see "damn, last night was hot" or "can't wait to meet you in the lounge after the last case" or descriptions of how much he liked certain body parts, or worse yet- how much she liked HIS parts. Haven't seen anything that indicates such- only texts where he complains that they weren't, or where he called her a tease, or the one's where she declined his propositions. 

It gives me hope, and right now, I'll take that. I also don't get the vibe that she's trickle truthing, but I'm watching for any signs whatsoever.


----------



## TRy

Music_Man said:


> Then, a bomb dropped from out of nowhere. In early Feb, my W and I were talking about a couple we knew where the husband had cheated. I made the statement that "I just couldn't believe that this guy would ever do anything like that". My W's response floored me- "you never know. Anyone can cheat given the right set of circumstances and no boundaries...I mean I myself could have been in trouble...".


Your wife told you what you need to do when she said "Anyone can cheat given the right set of circumstances and no boundaries...I mean I myself could have been in trouble". This emotional affair ("EA") happened because you have no boundaries. Time to work with your wife in establishing strong marital boundaries. We can control what we do, but not what we feel. Boundaries help us to not develop feelings for others that would be harmful to our marriages.


----------



## Music_Man

Well said. The author of "Not Just Friends" speaks to this as well. You can't just combat indefinitely with love and 'good' relationships- effective boundaries are a must. Especially given the work environments my W works in, and the environments that many of us work in, for that matter. 

My environment is ripe with infidelity as well (large company, open office floorplan, attractive people sharing workspace in close proximity, etc.). I see folks on 'coffee dates' or 'walking dates' or whatever on a daily basis.


----------



## NJ2

I also believe your wife- after my a ( and although physical -no piv or oral-I would be so ashamed if my h read the letters we wrote- and they were never of an explicit nature. I would be ashamed of the clearly shared intimacy- I would be ashamed that this closeness I was fostering with a man other than him/ how juvenile-how high school- how disrespectful to my h. Just the letters alone I'm sure she feels deep regret for
There are no do overs in life but she can do better going forward - I believe she will


----------



## SunCMars

@NJ2

And, no do-overs for my HeadMates.

They need to read this thread, heed the reads and the herds responses.





[THM]- THRD

I could do with a do-over, I am done and over due.


----------



## faithfulman

@Music_Man - I think you have done most of the right things, you did a phone recovery - I find Fonelab to be much better than Dr. Fone, but it worked for you so great!

I think there is a 50/50 chance her affair went physical, in some form or another. Hopefully not all the way.

But I feel you have not gotten around to taking the polygraph yet because your you fear that you might find out the worst.

I feel you brother, I have not yet taken that step yet because I manually squeezed out all the lies I could first. 

I don't mean to send you to another forum, but you'll find a lot more actual polygraph stories at Surviving Infidelity.

They usually turn out bad by the way. 

However, I did get a piece of polygraph advice there that I think is ingenious.

Polygraphs are usually limited to three or four questions.

Instead of asking just a few questions, thereby leaving out so much you want to ask, prior to the polygraph administer a yes/no questionnaire to your wife. Make all the questions clear and stark.

Then, when you have her take the polygraph, she needs to answer whether she lied on any of her answers.

I don't know if this approach is legit but it seems to be a way to cover more.


----------



## Music_Man

Thanks all for the replies- I appreciate all of the advice and the concerns. Believe me when I tell you I'm taking this seriously. I want to believe what she's told me and that the texts are all that there is...BUT...she lied to me, and for a long time. Trust has to be earned back, and while there wasn't a hint of anything before this guy or after, THIS did happen, regardless of the circumstances. 

One thing I have not mentioned, and it really just slipped my mind (sorry, things are still a blur at times). One thing I really articulated to her- you have to tell me if there was any sexual contact, because my health is at risk if you did something. She said there was no concern there. I also am watching body language and for any hints that she's even nervous when answering. I didn't see anything here, but lack of an std hardly clears her from sexual contact. We all know there's more to sex than piv or oral. At least- it certainly is in my mind. Still, I don't get hints of deception here.

She also knew I was having a prostate screening and PSA blood test roughly one month into discovery (prostate cancer runs in both sides of my family. I started getting checked every year at age 42). I asked her if there was any need to be checked for STDs while getting the blood and urine tests. Her answer: "there is absolutely no reason to get checked...but if it will make you feel better, then this would be a good time to get checked." I really got the vibe, as the conversation wore on, that her only concern was what the doctor might think, but we both agreed that he and the lab techs see this every day- they think nothing of it, and they certainly don't know who may have been cheating between the two of us. 

Anyway- I went through with it, and everything was clean and clear. PSA good as well, for those that are curious. I handed her the lab results and she mentioned the PSA being good, then only mentioned the other by saying that it hurt that she had put me in a position where I felt I had to be checked, and she understood why I did it. 

I know- this doesn't clear her. POSOM is a doctor after all, so he could be clean. Condoms could've been used. Fondling/groping/etc could've happened. It does, however, make feel at least a little better that 1)she didn't protest me getting checked and 2)the testing didn't coax a 'confession' from her, which I was worried might happen.

Thanks again for reading and responding. A heads up that I'm not abandoning the thread, but posts and responses may be sporadic near the end the week and weekend. Ws birthday is upon me, and I had already scheduled a few days away for us well before D-day. I'm not rescinding that- after all, I still very much love her and she (no matter where we are with this) needs some time away as well.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I strongly encourage you to do a polygraph. Usually you can only do 5-6 questions. Be thinking about what you want to ask.
By all means recover these texts prior to the poly. Information is critical. You need to know as much as possible.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I strongly encourage you to do a polygraph. Usually you can only do 5-6 questions. Be thinking about what you want to ask.
> 
> By all means recover these texts prior to the poly. Information is critical. You need to know as much as possible.


I've researched a few places nearby that administer the tests. I'm going to start making calls today, with hope that I can schedule one for next week. We go out of town tomorrow and return Saturday. 

Yes, I'll be as nervous as she is. I believe her story to this point and the texts back it up as much as they possibly can...but...well, you all know...


----------



## personofinterest

I'm not always the biggest believer in a polygraph, but in this case I think it is warranted. Sadly, it is far too easy for people to justify an affair that is emotional only and keep it buried. The fact that she is confessing something from years ago and still claiming it was only emotional doesn't really fly with me. Something Moore had to have happened in my opinion. And you deserve the truth.


----------



## Robert22205

Please share your experience with the polygraph, including the questions and the results. It's a topic that comes up frequently. 

From other posts, I think you and the polygraph operator will develop 4 questions. The simpler and more precise (e.g., yes or no) the better. For example, did Dr xyz kiss you? 

I think the cost ranges around $400-500.

I wish you both well.


----------



## personofinterest

Robert22205 said:


> Please share your experience with the polygraph, including the questions and the results. It's a topic that comes up frequently.
> 
> From other posts, I think you and the polygraph operator will develop 4 questions. The simpler and more precise (e.g., yes or no) the better. For example, did Dr xyz kiss you?
> 
> I think the cost ranges around $400-500.
> 
> I wish you both well.


I would make them very general yes/no questions

Was there any physical contact between you and OM (because if you just say kiss or sex she can gt around the lie)

Have you been unfaithful more than one time during our marriage

Are in communication with any other man


That kind of thing


----------



## Music_Man

Just spoke at length with one of the examiners. Going this afternoon to meet and formulate questions. Looks like it's happening- has time next week. I'll check in again later after we meet.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Glad to hear you are doing this. I did and I told my FWW one lie, it is over. She passed. I had the examiner as the following questions:

1) Were you in love with POSOM?
2) Do you love no longer lonely husband?
3) Did you really only have 11 encounters?
4) Was he ever in our house or our bed?
5) Are there photos or videos?
6) Have you contact POSOM since D-Day.

Best $750 I ever spent.


----------



## Music_Man

We're set for the exam next Tuesday. I told the wife last night to understand that I might do this at any time- so she's at least aware, but not of the date. I have it scheduled for late in the day so work won't be an issue. 

The examiner is well-versed. He's worked several high profile cases in our state and is now 'retired' and does this privately. He sees dozens of these cases every year, and went over what to expect. I'll be in a room with a two-way mirror and intercom. He says this puts the subject more at ease and helps increase accuracy. 

He also said point blank: "I've done enough of these and seen enough that I can tell you if she's lying- regardless of what the machine says."

He helped me formulate and condense the questions. He prefers 4 or 5, but is allowing 6 here considering the length of time that has passed. 

I won't share the questions with the board just yet. No offense to anyone here, but this part is for me to decide without public opinion. After all, I'm the one suffering here and only I can decide what questions I really need answers to. 

Thanks all for the support. I needed to hear that the poly was a sound idea. I believe it is. As far as how do I think it will go? Based on the texts, her attitude, and my own gut feeling, I have hope that she will pass. 

If she doesn't, you all will know- because I won't be around these parts for a few days as I help her pack.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Do not be surprised if you get a parking lot confession. I was expecting one as I suspected mine violated our NC with POSOM.I hope you do not and she is being straight up. Good luck to you sir.


----------



## TAMAT

No matter the outcome it will allow you to make a decision based on fact. Good move.


----------



## Music_Man

TAMAT said:


> No matter the outcome it will allow you to make a decision based on fact. Good move.


Yeah, that's really my line of thinking. If she passes with the questions that are going to be asked, then with that, her attitude, the texts...and well, knowing my wife as I feel I know her, I'm going to be satisfied and know true reconciliation is possible and a huge hurdle will have been jumped. 

If she doesn't pass, well, I know what I have to do. 

Either way I'll be able to look myself in the mirror and say that I've done all that I can do.


----------



## TAMAT

MM,

Did you interview the OM and get his side of the story.

Even if he lies and your WW is lying they usually do not tell the same lies.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Calling POSOM is a stellar idea.


----------



## Music_Man

TAMAT said:


> MM,
> 
> 
> 
> Did you interview the OM and get his side of the story.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if he lies and your WW is lying they usually do not tell the same lies.


I would like to, but two issues here- 1) it's been more than 6 years since this ended- that might be dozens of women later for him, and would he even remember things correctly, and 2) he's a real POS liar...no telling what story he might concoct. 

When the affair ended, it got ugly with 2 episodes. My W texted him a few weeks after it ended (last contact was from him saying "...then this is over." And then a follow up text calling her a tease." Here's the convo, pretty much verbatim:

W: We need to talk about this.

OM: Talk about what? 

W: why you're treating me and the other nurses so badly all of a sudden. You and I both know why. 

OM: I'm just working and you all need to get your butts in gear. 

W: that's ridiculous and you know it. We are the best crew by far. Working hard. You're treating us bad and me in particular because of what happened between us...and what I wouldn't do with you.

OM: what the hell are you talking about?

W: you know damn well

OM: you're crazy. Leave me alone.

W: stop mistreating us

OM: you're crazy. What happened between us. Enlighten me.

W: you know what happened!! The flirting, the dirty texting, you asking me to go places and do things. I wouldn't do any of it and now you're showing me who you really are. But stop this! We have to work together. 

OM: do you have proof of this text and flirting? 

W: you know I didn't keep them

OM: lol like I said- this is in your mind. Leave me alone. 

They had one more exchange, about 2 weeks later, similar banter but ended like this:

W: either stop the yelling, berating, and snatching instruments or I'm going to HR and BOD. 

OM: you do that and it'll ruin you too. Who you think they are going to side with, a nurse or a doc who brings in the $$$? You better back off.

W: I'm serious. Stop. Now.

No response from him, but both texts were straightforward gaslighting from him. 

About 3 days later, my W got offered the full time position at the other place she had been working, and turned in her notice and was gone. I can find no contact via text, call, or any other means since that last text above. And that much I believe to be true 100%. 

I share this to show a few things- 1)how quickly he showed who he was. 2)how much of a snake and liar he is. 3)that it ended badly, and I think this helped shake the cobwebs out and lift the fog completely for my W. His ugliness helped, no doubt. 

I'm just not sure about talking to this cat. I'd love to meet him and show him my copies of the texts. I'd love to talk to him. Just not sure it will productive. 

I have tracked down his ex-wife. I may reach out to her to see if she knew anything. She caught him soon after all of this with that other lady, so it's possible she's uncovered more, or at least knows about this. 

Regardless of whether I talk to this guy, the poly is going to tell the tale- for better or worse.


----------



## farsidejunky

I wouldn't.

Their texts are telling.

After seeing those, I don't know that I would have even done the poly. But now that it's scheduled, you have to follow through.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Music_Man

farsidejunky said:


> I wouldn't.
> 
> Their texts are telling.
> 
> After seeing those, I don't know that I would have even done the poly. But now that it's scheduled, you have to follow through.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I will go through with the poly because of 2-3 specific questions I want to just be sure of. One of them is if she ever met him before or after work, away from campus. He was really pushing her here and I want to make sure that didn't happen. The texts indicate no, but still. 

Those hours would be the danger zone. As I'm sure you all know, cases can run long at times in the OR. It's the "hey babe, last case starting a little late. Be home a tad later. Can you pick up so and so from daycare? " texts that scare me. Very few of those since she wasn't on his on call group (most likely a marriage saver for us...this would've given her and him easy as pie access and downtime as well). W was on the team with a 60+ yr. old surgeon, overweight and ornery...no concerns there and the rest of the staff was female. Again, saving grace in staffing.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I wouldnt bother with contacting him if I were you. You are not going to get any kind of truth out of him, I mean look how hard he gaslighted HER, and SHE was present for it all and knows the truth. What an ass.


----------



## Music_Man

3Xnocharm said:


> I wouldnt bother with contacting him if I were you. You are not going to get any kind of truth out of him, I mean look how hard he gaslighted HER, and SHE was present for it all and knows the truth. What an ass.


He's an ass of the highest order. My W is physically sick over how close she was to ruining us over someone like this. I have more to tell about him when I have time. Did a little checking into his background. Let's just say he stalks his prey...


----------



## MattMatt

Music_Man said:


> He's an ass of the highest order. My W is physically sick over how close she was to ruining us over someone like this. I have more to tell about him when I have time. Did a little checking into his background. Let's just say he stalks his prey...


If you contacted him you should expect him to lie to you by pretending they did every act and type of carnal congress known to to humankind, just in order to mess with you and her.

You know what a nasty, vile person he is. Just leave it at that, is my suggestion.


----------



## Music_Man

MattMatt said:


> If you contacted him you should expect him to lie to you by pretending they did every act and type of carnal congress known to to humankind, just in order to mess with you and her.
> 
> 
> 
> You know what a nasty, vile person he is. Just leave it at that, is my suggestion.


I agree...there's just that 'alpha' part of me that wants to confront, seeing as I never got the chance 6 years ago. 

I think with the texts, what I know about my W, and the poly, I'll have all I need.


----------



## personofinterest

Music_Man said:


> I agree...there's just that 'alpha' part of me that wants to confront, seeing as I never got the chance 6 years ago.
> 
> I think with the texts, what I know about my W, and the poly, I'll have all I need.


Sometimes the most alpha thing you can do with a guy like that is.....nothing. He's probably chomping at the bit to top you. Ignoring him like so much irrelevant nothing is the best revenge lol.

(Now that I have said that I need to point to myself and say it again lol)


----------



## Music_Man

personofinterest said:


> Sometimes the most alpha thing you can do with a guy like that is.....nothing. He's probably chomping at the bit to top you. Ignoring him like so much irrelevant nothing is the best revenge lol.
> 
> 
> 
> (Now that I have said that I need to point to myself and say it again lol)


I'm also quite certain it eats him up inside that she's 'one that got away', so to speak. 

He lost patience at the end. He should have stayed on the same trajectory. But he tried to skip a few steps, and then, once rejected, completely lost it- lost his professionalism as well.

My W says 2 of the other nurses asked point blank- why are you being so mean to her? He gaslighted them as well with "what are you talking about? I'm just trying to get the work done".


----------



## Noble1

Nothing to add, just wanted to say good luck and hope things turn out for you.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Oh how I wanted to give POSOM a fist sandwich. Good for the son.


----------



## Music_Man

Had a few minutes this morning. The source that is telling about the POSOM is a gentleman I've known for close to 15 years. He was a surgical scrub tech when my W first moved from ICU to the OR. Retired military, and GREAT guy. I'd trust him with my life.

Anyway, he ended up working on the POSOMs on call team, and even ended up going with POSOM when he was doing cases at his other hospital. He, like so many others, was fooled in the beginning. He was taken in by his magnetic personality. I reached out to him in confidence about my situation- I didn't tell him they had an affair, just told him I suspected some things and wondered if he ever saw anything. 

He did begin to see certain things around the time the EA with my W was ending, but it wasn't with my W. He says if anything was happening between them, he had no idea and that POSOM never talked about my W in that manner. He did say that around that time frame that he was habitually late for cases and could not be found at odd times during the day. He says what was happening was he was meeting his main AP at her house before work and during lunch. Yes, same house her son caught them at. This coincides with texts to me during this time frame from my W to the effect of "still waiting on doc. Cases starting late today". The gentleman tells me that administration was starting to take notice as well of his erratic behavior. Complaints were coming in.

The gentleman left the hospital around the same time as my wife, and went to work at the other facility that POSOM was working at. He stayed only about 6 months, then retired. He said he couldn't stand it. POSOM had 2 side pieces there as well, and was constantly running back and forth between his office across the street, where he had a bed and sleeping quarters, and the hospital. Was banging these two between seeing office patients and cases, and administration was enabling them by looking the other way.

He's still there today, and is with the AP who the son caught them with. He has not married her though. In talking with the gentleman I know and doing a little other research, I've found that he's ruined no fewer than 3 marriages and possibly as many as 5. 

When he came to the hospital where my W worked, he had been under the radar with his infidelity for the most part to that point in his career, and no one knew anything about him really. They all took him at face value, and he played them all. 

The reason admin has looked away? He's an excellent surgeon. One of the best in the area, nothing but 5 star ratings everywhere you turn. He's good with patients and families too. 

The gentleman I confided in says the head administrator where he is now is also a serial cheater, and they are two of a kind. He's got the run of the place. 

It would be a shame if the Board of Directors there got an anonymous email or perhaps a certified letter containing some details and proof. Would be a real shame...

Back to my long weekend. Things are well. We talked long into the night and in great detail about things. We'll see what happens with the poly, but I am hopeful. I'll take that for now. 

Thanks again all for reading and responding. Just being here and getting sound advice and tough love from those that have been there- it's helping more than I ever thought possible. Wish I had been here around 2012-2013!!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> Had a few minutes this morning. The source that is telling about the POSOM is a gentleman I've known for close to 15 years. He was a surgical scrub tech when my W first moved from ICU to the OR. Retired military, and GREAT guy. I'd trust him with my life.
> 
> Anyway, he ended up working on the POSOMs on call team, and even ended up going with POSOM when he was doing cases at his other hospital. He, like so many others, was fooled in the beginning. He was taken in by his magnetic personality. I reached out to him in confidence about my situation- I didn't tell him they had an affair, just told him I suspected some things and wondered if he ever saw anything.
> 
> He did begin to see certain things around the time the EA with my W was ending, but it wasn't with my W. He says if anything was happening between them, he had no idea and that POSOM never talked about my W in that manner. He did say that around that time frame that he was habitually late for cases and could not be found at odd times during the day. He says what was happening was he was meeting his main AP at her house before work and during lunch. Yes, same house her son caught them at. This coincides with texts to me during this time frame from my W to the effect of "still waiting on doc. Cases starting late today". The gentleman tells me that administration was starting to take notice as well of his erratic behavior. Complaints were coming in.
> 
> The gentleman left the hospital around the same time as my wife, and went to work at the other facility that POSOM was working at. He stayed only about 6 months, then retired. He said he couldn't stand it. POSOM had 2 side pieces there as well, and was constantly running back and forth between his office across the street, where he had a bed and sleeping quarters, and the hospital. Was banging these two between seeing office patients and cases, and administration was enabling them by looking the other way.
> 
> He's still there today, and is with the AP who the son caught them with. He has not married her though. In talking with the gentleman I know and doing a little other research, I've found that he's ruined no fewer than 3 marriages and possibly as many as 5.
> 
> When he came to the hospital where my W worked, he had been under the radar with his infidelity for the most part to that point in his career, and no one knew anything about him really. They all took him at face value, and he played them all.
> 
> The reason admin has looked away? He's an excellent surgeon. One of the best in the area, nothing but 5 star ratings everywhere you turn. He's good with patients and families too.
> 
> The gentleman I confided in says the head administrator where he is now is also a serial cheater, and they are two of a kind. He's got the run of the place.
> 
> It would be a shame if the Board of Directors there got an anonymous email or perhaps a certified letter containing some details and proof. Would be a real shame...
> 
> Back to my long weekend. Things are well. We talked long into the night and in great detail about things. We'll see what happens with the poly, but I am hopeful. I'll take that for now.
> 
> Thanks again all for reading and responding. Just being here and getting sound advice and tough love from those that have been there- it's helping more than I ever thought possible. Wish I had been here around 2012-2013!!


By all means send an anonymous letter to the chairman of the board of the hospital he is currently at . This is a Sun Tzu approach..."baffle them with confusion....take them by suprise". Ruining 3-5 marriages. How sad.

I have a daughter in law graduating from med school next year and I have warned my son about hospitals. His wife is an extremely attractive young lady and I asked him to have a firm talk with his wife, as she will likely get propositioned from some POS Doc.
He told me "Dad H would not do that". I told him I thought the same about your mother. 

Sadly, most administrators turn a blind eye to docs screwing the help. However, I know from personal experience, a friend of mine who served on the board of a large hospital in our area was able to get a similar type of physician terminated.

have a great weekend. I hope all goes your way.


----------



## stillthinking

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.—Sun Tzu, The Art of War


----------



## TDSC60

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> By all means send an anonymous letter to the chairman of the board of the hospital he is currently at . This is a Sun Tzu approach..."baffle them with confusion....take them by suprise". Ruining 3-5 marriages. How sad.
> 
> I have a daughter in law graduating from med school next year and I have warned my son about hospitals. His wife is an extremely attractive young lady and I asked him to have a firm talk with his wife, as she will likely get propositioned from some POS Doc.
> *He told me "Dad H would not do that". I told him I thought the same about your mother. *
> 
> Sadly, most administrators turn a blind eye to docs screwing the help. However, I know from personal experience, a friend of mine who served on the board of a large hospital in our area was able to get a similar type of physician terminated.
> 
> have a great weekend. I hope all goes your way.


Tell him that is the exact attitude that most cheating wives depend on when in an affair. Their husbands think it impossible that the wife would betray them.

I have a friend who is a mental health professional. He says this attitude is labeled "Betrayal Blindness". The husband refuses to recognize the red flags of an affair because recognition would mean accepting that his wife, whom he has placed on that pedestal, IS capable of betrayal.

One of the first steps in affair proofing a marriage is admitting that anyone is capable of an affair.

I would give them each a copy of "Not Just Friends".


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

@TDSC60, I bought that book for him and his wife a few months ago. He has read it, but wife has not.

My son I think has his eyes open after what happened to his cousin whose wife was a nurse. She took up with a married doctor 18 years older than her. .Sadly, having myself served On a hospital board, our personnel committee and credentials committees had their work cut out for them dealing with this crap. It was almost every other month there was a issue to deal with. Fortunately, we hired an excellent executive director of the hospital, and he ran a tight ship and from my knowledge there is less hanky panky going on.


----------



## stillthinking

> The husband refuses to recognize the red flags of an affair because recognition would mean accepting that his wife, whom he has placed on that pedestal, IS capable of betrayal.


So true. I am also a health care professional. Every guy I see that been cheated on has done this. They ignore their gut. They do not take notice of their own mate-guarding behavior, and why they feel the need to do that.


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## Music_Man

stillthinking said:


> So true. I am also a health care professional. Every guy I see that been cheated on has done this. They ignore their gut. They do not take notice of their own mate-guarding behavior, and why they feel the need to do that.


This was me, right here. More to share on this later when I get home from this little getaway with my W, which is going really well btw. Great talks, lots of interesting tidbits. And I'm also reminded why this marriage is worth fighting for.


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## BarbedFenceRider

Wow, what a thread. I'm happy that you have found your peace. While mine was a EA as well, I only found out because the POS called the house in the middle of the night! (drunk dialed). 

Now, TAM and others have opened my eyes tremendously, and I am still with my wife "working" on things....The luster of the marriage is gone. Its more like a business. My son graduates in 5 years and my daughter is close behind. The W knows that I will re-evaluate things at this time and that I just will be a lot more cynical from now on. What got me on your thread was that while you were the primary breadwinner, and you were over worked and depressed. She left you drowning....

Did you ever discuss with her and the IC about the feeling of abandonment and trechery with that? The "emasculation" you mentioned is real, and then the back stabbing when you needed your "rock" the most, would have been too much for me. You are a strong person!

With love and grace, congrats.


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## Music_Man

BarbedFenceRider said:


> Did you ever discuss with her and the IC about the feeling of abandonment and trechery with that? The "emasculation" you mentioned is real, and then the back stabbing when you needed your "rock" the most, would have been too much for me. You are a strong person!
> 
> 
> 
> With love and grace, congrats.


Thanks for joining in and sharing as well. I have some time respond to a few posts while W grabs a shower. Yes, we've discussed this as a couple as well as in my IC sessions and my wife's IC sessions. Obviously we haven't shared everything from our sessions, but we have shared a few things that we both feel are necessary- breakthroughs, questions, etc- for helping with the recovery process. 

We both know that during this time frame, we were both taking the relationship for granted. If just one of us had opened our eyes and reached to the other person in love, I wouldn't be here and this thread wouldn't exist. My W, however, has owned the affair 100%- no blaming of 'where we were' or the circumstances. She has readily admitted that there is never an excuse to go down the road of adultery. Yet, we both know that it was the 'perfect storm' of events that created the conditions that were favorable for this episode of our lives.

I can begin the walk towards forgiveness and reconciliation based on many factors, but key is this: she isn't that person anymore and neither am I. She was only that person for a short time frame, same as me. She has been remorseful, has done everything I've asked during my (and our) recovery, and she hasn't had a hint of anything like this in the time since this affair ended. 

It doesn't make me a weak person to forgive either, and it's definitely not based on financials, children, or any other such thing. And the other part of this that is TRULY amazing? I'm not an overly forgiving person by nature. Yet, working to forgive in this instance has opened my eyes to so many things...wow, is all I can say. 

And yes, there are some 'deal breakers' for this reconciliation, to be certain. She knows where she stands and if it's found that any part of the discovery isn't factual...well let's just say there isn't going to be much grace left from Music_Man.

And yes, I still love her very much and there is no doubt that she loves me. I believe the love we had- however broken it was at the time- was also a saving factor in keeping it to an EA and to end it.

Last post from me until we get home tomorrow afternoon. Thanks again for all that have contributed- your advice and your own stories have both been priceless!


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## Robert22205

Congratulations! You're a smart as well as strong man. I wish you both well.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

You definitely have it together. You will be ok. What are your deal breakers? I thought you mentioned one, that being PA.


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## turnera

Music_Man said:


> I'm also quite certain it eats him up inside that she's 'one that got away', so to speak.


Trust me, he hasn't wasted 2 seconds thinking about your wife; he has a whole life full of other women he can score with. That's part of the game.


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## turnera

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Sadly, most administrators turn a blind eye to docs screwing the help. However, I know from personal experience, a friend of mine who served on the board of a large hospital in our area was able to get a similar type of physician terminated.


True, they'll ignore it - UNLESS it affects their reputation or bottom line. That's where you hit 'em. My boss - best boss I ever had - was let go by the chair of our hospital department, who has brought his women as he progresses in his career, promoting them. The boss who was let go informed me that big boss AND his possible paramour are now being investigated for 'relations' and may be removed. All it takes is the right threat.


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## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> You definitely have it together. You will be ok. What are your deal breakers? I thought you mentioned one, that being PA.


A PA...well, if that was something that had been confessed to in the beginning of disclosure, I might...MIGHT have decided to take that to IC with me to see if there was some way I could reconcile it. But if it were to come out now, fully 3 months after D-day, that the affair was a full-blown PA- that would be the death blow for certain. In no particular order:

1. If I find out affair was a PA.

2. If she ever contacted him at all after the affair was over, or if he contacted her and she hid it from me.

3. If I find she's had other 'talks' with other docs or coworkers. Found nothing of the sort and never a hint before or since this guy...but if I find there was another, I'm done.

4. Changing passwords, new email accounts without telling me...any secretive behaviour with devices- new contacts from guys I don't know or haven't heard of. Can't hide this stuff now.

5. Changing her behavior to not being remorseful but instead blaming me, or trying to rush this process of recovering. That won't work.

6. If I find that she met him away from hospital before or after work- regardless of whether or not they did anything. Just being willing to do that would say a lot about her intent.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

I hope your answers are negative. My FWW carried on an affair for nine months with POSOM. I was on pins and needles until she passed the poly. The guy who did our polygraph was retired law enforcement and he told me my wife would be a horrible liar. However, she was able to lie to me over the term of her fling.

I am thankful we have been able to reconcile. It was hard work the first six months, but we were able to push through the curtain of infidelity and our “new marriage” is GREAT. 

The point I am trying to make is that each of you appear to love each other, and if you both have “intestinal fortitude “. Things can and will improve immensely. We both did IC as d we are still doing MC every other week. Our MC has been a blessing as he is nothing short of excellent. He has us do Gottman cards frequently.

Below is a link to Gottman.

https://www.gottman.com/product/love-map-cards-for-couples/


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## [email protected]

Music_Man, you don't reconcile! It's not your job. Reconciling is to be done by the WW. She does the work, not you! Anyhow, eventually, you'll find out that it was a PA. Sorry pal, but nearly all of them end up this way.


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## Music_Man

Good morning all. Really had a nice getaway with W, despite where we are right now. I tried to almost look at us from the outside- tried to turn my emotions off as much as possible- especially when talking about the affair. I think I've really had two points hammered home- points that I had already reconciled with myself, really, but getting out and away from everything such as work, kids, friends, etc. helped to give more clarity of mind (and really soul as well). The two points are this:

1)We work better together than apart. This marriage of ours has been great at times, and I feel that it will be again. The last couple of years have already shown it's true potential. 

2)I'll survive- I'll be alright- if it doesn't work out. If she fails the poly or we get a parking lot confession, or if simply more details come to light or whatever and I decide to walk away, I can look at myself in the mirror and say that I've done all that I can and I gave us an honest chance to rebuild...it just simply wasn't meant to be.

I sincerely hope, however, that point #2 does not come to fruition. We DO work well together and we DO love each other deeply. But I am keeping my hope in check as we approach Tuesday and the poly. Either way, I am at peace with things. 

We had some really long, deep talks this weekend. Understanding her mindset from that time frame as well as present has been absolutely paramount as we work toward recovery. If there are any more details to come, it will be somewhat surprising. It won't be shocking, as nothing shocks me anymore, but I will be a bit surprised given the texts that I have and the discussions we've been through. I did reiterate that should anything else come out previously unknown- anything physical, going to meet him, any "I love you's" or if I find she disparaged me and/or our marriage to him- it would be catastrophic. 

Cautiously optimistic is where I am right now. This coming week will be one to remember- no matter the result.


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## ConanHub

Here's hoping for the best outcome for you and your Mrs. @Music_Man

I appreciate you sharing your story and it sounds like, though your marriage was betrayed, it could have been so much worse.

If your wife is being truthful, it really didn't progress very far and it was because of her restraint. EA's are a little tricky and sometimes harder to be aware of as opposed to a PA.

I'm definitely in the camp that would divorce for cheating, even though I support healthy reconciliation for others, and I would more than likely reconcile if I was in your shoes.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Musicman,

Hypothetically, let’s assume you find out more than you currently know. Let’s assume a PA is revealed. Do you not think you could forgive and work to restore your marriage? From your posts your love for your wife is apparent. I gather she loves you and does not want to lose you.
Point being I experienced much worse than what you post and I was able to forgive and reconcile. Do you not think with things being good between the two of you you could not move forward? Walking away after I calmed down and realized I still loved my wife was no longer an option if she was truly remorseful. The question I played over and over in my mind as I have told others on this board and I will convey to you to ask yourself one question.....would my life be better or worse without my wife? After much reflection, I realized my life would be better with her in it. 

I sincerely hope all goes well for you. You seem like a very nice person and level headed.


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## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Musicman,
> 
> 
> 
> Hypothetically, let’s assume you find out more than you currently know. Let’s assume a PA is revealed. Do you not think you could forgive and work to restore your marriage? From your posts your love for your wife is apparent. I gather she loves you and does not want to lose you.
> 
> Point being I experienced much worse than what you post and I was able to forgive and reconcile. Do you not think with things being good between the two of you you could not move forward? Walking away after I calmed down and realized I still loved my wife was no longer an option if she was truly remorseful. The question I played over and over in my mind as I have told others on this board and I will convey to you to ask yourself one question.....would my life be better or worse without my wife? After much reflection, I realized my life would be better with her in it.
> 
> 
> 
> I sincerely hope all goes well for you. You seem like a very nice person and level headed.


I think where I'm at is this: no matter what she did, yes, I do love her and what we had before the affair and what we have now is really something special. The issue would be a big lie on top of the affair and after discovery. That's a problem.

I can see her withholding any physical details for the sake of the marriage. I don't see her withholding this for any other reason- not to 'win' an argument, not for vanity, and not to simply 'save face'. This is the reason she withheld the affair for years- she knew we weren't strong enough before, and she's right. Some of you will call BS on that, but my therapist, her therapist, and both of us agree on this point. 

Having said all of that- if it comes out that it was a PA, then I'm willing to at least try therapy and do what I can to say I've given it my all, but PA details coming out now would set us back to square one. It would be D-day all over again, and that's a pain I never want to experience again on any level. Still, I think it might also depend on the level of physicality. If 'some things' happened or if they had sex once and she shut it down, that's a bit different than if they had an ongoing sexual relationship and she was making plans to leave. 

It's a lot to process...a lot to process. There's no easy answer. I know I've said in previous posts that I'd likely be 'done' or whatever, but if actually faced with that reality...well, the truth is I'm not sure how I'd handle it, but my gut feeling is that I'd give it an honest shot.

I've made it clear to her- recovering from betrayal is extremely difficult in the best of circumstances, but hearing details either 3rd party or even from her 3 months after D-day would be a potentially devastating situation, perhaps catastrophic. She understands this- no doubt.


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## Music_Man

I meant to post this in my initial post this morning, but the gentleman who was my source called me last night. Let's just call him 'trusted friend' or 'TF' going forward. 

He told me he was upset ever since we first spoke, and refuses to believe anything was happening between them (again, he doesn't know the full nature of the texts). This is simply based on what he saw every day. He was scrubbed into approximately 85% of the cases that my W would've been on with POSOM, and was present in the OR suite practically 100% of days my W was there. He was present in hallways, breakroom, cafeteria- anywhere W was. He says he never once saw them together, never saw them getting coffee, lunch, or in breakroom together. He said he never saw him flirt with my W. 

He doesn't doubt that POSOM would try, given his past and present actions and given that my W is attractive; he just doubts that my W would've done anything to risk her marriage or career. He says she talked about me all of the time, even to POSOM. He says if anything happened it would have had to have happened away from hospital grounds. This is another confirmation that I need to ask the question about off campus excursions when the poly happens. 

Anyway, it was an interesting call, and was nice to get some unsolicited feedback. And no, W has not been in contact with TF- this is not some rehearsed alibi. I asked him point blank and I checked her phone to be sure. 

I sincerely hope that all of this information I've gotten isn't setting me up for the big 'crush'. I'll know soon enough.


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## turnera

I'm not too worried about her; she sounds like a fairly good person.

The only thing I have to add is that the reason Lonely Husband's marriage turned out so well, IMO, is that he swiftly and unequivocably DUMPED his marriage. He immediately told her her was done and literally went away. The shock of it, of him leaving, IMO, is what shook her into total awareness of the severity of what she did.

Not sure that's applicable in your case, just wanted to point out the psychological aspect of why I think his marriage turned around - he was COMPLETELY ready to walk away and she had to do a TON of work to get him to even consider taking her back.

Your wife has to be crystal clear of that before the poly, IMO.


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## ConanHub

turnera said:


> I'm not too worried about her; she sounds like a fairly good person.
> 
> The only thing I have to add is that the reason Lonely Husband's marriage turned out so well, IMO, is that he swiftly and unequivocably DUMPED his marriage. He immediately told her her was done and literally went away. The shock of it, of him leaving, IMO, is what shook her into total awareness of the severity of what she did.
> 
> Not sure that's applicable in your case, just wanted to point out the psychological aspect of why I think his marriage turned around - he was COMPLETELY ready to walk away and she had to do a TON of work to get him to even consider taking her back.
> 
> Your wife has to be crystal clear of that before the poly, IMO.


Yup. He really held her feet to the fire and so did a lot of their friends and relatives.

She got spanked!


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

LOL Conan. I spanked her on your advice.....she said after I spanked her....what was that for...then she went Oh.


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## sokillme

Well I'm back so that means another long winded post. I apologizes to everyone. 

So love is a terrible reason for staying in a marriage, especially one where there is abuse. If after all this she is still lying to you and you stay, then the work needs to be done on yourself more then even the marriage. People who are willing to stay in abuse for love end up getting abused. The statement "you tell people how to treat you" really fits in that circumstance. If you were to stay with here after all this and all your talk about leaving if she is lying then the biggest lesson you would be teaching her is that you will stay no matter what. No amount of dishonesty is too much. 

Continuing with this line of thinking, I have been reading this thread and I personally think you fall in to this pattern of behavior that many people who get cheated on do. Sorry not to be nice here or paint a rosy picture as others have but I don't think you really are on as good a track as you think. If what you have posted on here is the truth then I think that maybe you can survive, but you need to do some serious work on yourself too. 

For instance you continually call the other man a POS but give your wife a pass. It's easier for you to put all of the onus on him and see you wife as kind of child like in her understanding of what she was doing. She was suffering at the time because of outside forces, you were busy with school (school she wanted you to attend), she was lonely and going though a mid life crisis, etc... However if you read these stories pretty much all affairs have these things going on, frankly all marriages do. 

But her paramour, he is a POS predator who took advantage of a weak women. This women, your wife, who is by your account a very accomplished nurse, well respected and I believe even church going? Yet somehow this sleazy guy prayed on her when she was weak and didn't really know where it was going? I wonder if you can think of any other instance where she was able to be manipulated SO EASILY? She doesn't sound like the type, in fact as soon as she no longer wanted the attention she extremely assertive with him and then even switched jobs. Boom, done and over in a second, and actively pursuing another job to get out of the crappy situations she had created for everyone co-workers included. Doesn't seem like a victim to me. As an outside observer see them is pretty much the same. They both wanted it, she just didn't want the sex. YES your Church going wife wanted this. I bet if you talk to HIS wife she see YOUR WIFE as POSOW and not a victim. 

Also you give her credit for reading all the books, and I agree that is better then some of the garbage who do these things, but she never came clean, it's not like she confessed. One has to ask if she was going to tell you if you never brought it up? At this point you will never no but it's silly to operate like she would when she hadn't. I mean you didn't cheat and I am sure you don't think you deserve credit for that right? Nope that is just what you do if you are faithful to your spouse, but she gets credit for telling you when you ask? Isn't that a pretty low bar? Do you want to set such a low bar for someone who is the primary relationship in your life?

This is the thing, you are being dishonest. Dishonest with yourself and who your wife is. As I have been reading stories like this over and over I can now see this is a pretty common pattern with these situations, and I think it contributes to how marriages can get to the point where one spouse is cheating, and often in a very vulgar way. Often the other spouse is shocked and didn't even see this side of their WS. You even mentioned a few pages before this that you were willingly obtuse to what was going on. 



> So true. I am also a health care professional. Every guy I see that been cheated on has done this. They ignore their gut. They do not take notice of their own mate-guarding behavior, and why they feel the need to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> This was me, right here. More to share on this later when I get home from this little getaway with my W, which is going really well btw.
Click to expand...

Respectfully you are still doing this dude. 



> I think with my W, and this is her theory as well, he took his time with her because he knew had to. She was a cut above the average skank he had flings with. My W was a decorated nurse and has a strong reputation in the community- lots of community service, outreach, etc. She was employee of the year at this hospital just a few years before he showed up. She wasn't going to be one where he might say "hey, let's go for a quickie in the closet" right off the bat. He had to be calculated if he wanted the ultimate payoff.
> 
> He was more patient in his tactics, but I think it was thrill of the hunt for this sicko as much as anything. And he won- she may have escaped the cage, but he certainly caught her in his trap.


Um no she isn't she just just a run of the mill other women like all the rest. It may be easier to think like this but it's not going to help your recovery. Again it's dishonest. Does her job really change any of this or how it hurt you? If anything professionalism in her career (which is obviously a big part of who she is) should have been another thing to prevent this, but wasn't. 

I mean, you say your wife was "Shocked" to see how far it was when he tried to kiss her. Dude, he had been texting that he wanted to **** her for months. She was shocked? Nope she chickened out or maybe didn't have any desire or intention to have a physical relationship, you need to see this for what it really is (assuming what she says is true). The "POSOM" is correct when he calls your wife a tease. That is exactly what she was doing, she was using him too to get the ego boost of his sexual attention and in the process disrespecting you and your marriage. The point is she is really no different them him, frankly he was more honest. In the end he told her what he wanted, she played him. And she is playing you if she says anything less. Maybe she is playing herself. Again see this for what it is! The fact that they didn't have sex is probably the only thing that saved your marriage but is your wife a fool? Because you have to believe this to believe the story you both are spinning. 

Just like any adulterer your wife knew exactly what she was doing and did it because she liked it. That's it, full stop. I personally think it makes much more sense that as long as it wasn't physical that your wife was willing to disrespect you, your marriage and herself to get all the ego boosting that his sexual attention gave her. A good question for both of you to think about would be what would have happened if he had never tried to kiss her and it had continued to stay all through text, would this still be going on? It wasn't really even about sex, it was about ego. Better to see what it really is you are healing from so you can truly heal. Because next time it could be something else that isn't cheating but the disrespect will still be there. You need to start from there. This didn't happen because of anything you did or didn't do, it didn't happen because of the state of your marriage, good bad or indifferent. It happened because it's in her nature. That's it, disgustingly and plain and stark. 

Look I know this isn't easy to deal with, but you MUST deal with the truth. One of the problems that you see in situations like this is both spouses are dishonest. Yes BOTH spouses. You are still being dishonest about who your wife is and what she did. Another example would be she liked the freaky text. You were SHOCKED by that, but you were shocked because you choose to see your wife as prim and proper (I won't say virtuous because that doesn't hold true in a marrage, sex between spouses should be all things, even raunchy.), and she does too. But that is not who she is or what she wants. I suspect you didn't explore that because you have been taught that that is somehow wrong. Lots of religious people are, believe me I know having grown up in the Church. Maybe I am wrong about that, but frankly the Church really teaches people to be dishonest, especially about sex. I say the culture of the Church does that not the religion itself. But in my mind, this is an example of the dishonesty hurting you. The truth is your wife wants desperately to have a truly honest relationship with you even if she hasn't gotten to the place where she can articulate that. This is part of the problem.

The lack of honesty holds true with your reaction to you wife and the other man. They are one of the same, and your wife is more culpable to you. She made vows to you, he didn't. You often here people who are cheated on say, well I put my spouse on a pedestal and I will never do that again. I don't think that is really what is going on. First of all believing your spouse will never cheat on you is not putting them on a pedestal it's having the normal reasonable expectations that everyone does when they say their vows. What is really going on is the spouse who "puts them on a pedestal" is choosing to see their spouse as how they want them to be, not who they are. They are not being honest with themselves. 

In all your post you never seem angry with her? Now maybe you don't show it but your reaction isn't what I would expect. Why is that? Again are you being honest? You should be damn pissed. Are you afraid to show her that anger for fear she will leave you? Do you think it's wrong to be angry? How can you have an honest relationship when your wife disrespects you so and you can't even allow yourself to be really righteously angry about that? 

You HAVE to get to the root of this in yourself because if not you are going to continue to have a fundamentally dishonest relationship with your wife. Many times guys like you finally get it, that it's not the POSOM who did this to them but their wives and then they have to go through all the pain all over again. They never really dealt with the reality of the situation because it was easier to blame someone else. Many times that sinks the marriage. 

Honestly, plain stark honesty is what is really needed in this situation if you are to recover and have a good life. From both of you about your marriage, each other and yourselves. 

Finally after all this she is still lying to you then she is not the women you think she is and she shouldn't be married to anyone. 

I'm sorry if this is hard to read but in the end it's going to be a lot harder if you don't face the truth. You need to take your medicine and get it over with.


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## ConanHub

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> LOL Conan. I spanked her on your advice.....she said after I spanked her....what was that for...then she went Oh.


Hahaha! Love it!

I'm glad you two are doing well. Stay hungry, thirsty and healthy my friend!:smile2:


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## notmyjamie

sokillme said:


> Just like any adulterer your wife knew exactly what she was doing and did it because she liked it. That's it, full stop. I personally think it makes much more sense that as long as it wasn't physical that your wife was willing to disrespect you, your marriage and herself to get all the ego boosting that his sexual attention gave her. A good question for both of you to think about would be what would have happened if he had never tried to kiss her and it had continued to stay all through text, would this still be going on? It wasn't really even about sex, it was about ego. Better to see what it really is you are healing from so you can truly heal.


I agree with this. She did it because she liked how it made her feel. She wasn't willing to go further and he pushed it and that's why it ended. But at this point in time, she needs to be honest to herself if not to you...how long would it have gone on if he hadn't pushed it? 

It's great that it never went physical and I'm sure that's a big relief. But in order to trust it will never happen again, there needs to be honesty about why she let it happen in the first place, what she was hoping to (or did) get out of it, and what will happen when/if she has those needs again? To say that she fell victim to his advances just isn't enough. 

My marriage has been **** for years and I've had guys attempt this type of crap with me. I don't go for it. What's the difference...it's not about why I don't go for it, it's about why she DID go for it and she needs to figure that out and so do you. Hopefully this is getting hashed out in her individual therapy.

I wish you the best of luck in figuring it out and getting your marriage back to where you want it to be.


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## Music_Man

turnera said:


> I'm not too worried about her; she sounds like a fairly good person.
> 
> The only thing I have to add is that the reason Lonely Husband's marriage turned out so well, IMO, is that he swiftly and unequivocably DUMPED his marriage. He immediately told her her was done and literally went away. The shock of it, of him leaving, IMO, is what shook her into total awareness of the severity of what she did.
> 
> Not sure that's applicable in your case, just wanted to point out the psychological aspect of why I think his marriage turned around - he was COMPLETELY ready to walk away and she had to do a TON of work to get him to even consider taking her back.
> 
> Your wife has to be crystal clear of that before the poly, IMO.


I left the house for a week following D-day. The disclosure was on a Saturday, I spent pretty much all Sunday recovering texts and took the old phone and laptop with me when I left for work Monday morning and grabbed a hotel after work. 

I told her in the most firm way I knew how that I needed to leave the house so I could break down/scream/yell/cry/whatever without worrying over what the kids would think, and I needed to get away from her as I needed to decide if I even wanted to think about reconciling. I was also extremely fortunate to get appointment with a top-flight therapist who specializes in IC for men who have been betrayed in relationships. 

I have no doubt that leaving for the week, and then having HER come visit ME at the hotel so I could go over the terms of reconciliation that I had for her, made a big difference. She knew at that point full-well that walking away was not only an option for me but it was something I seriously considered.


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## Music_Man

@sokillme @notmyjamie

Thanks to the both of you for your posts. That's the reason I posted here on CWI- I needed several different perspectives and I needed some opposing opinions. 

For the record, I have shown plenty of anger with my W, and I believe it justified...VERY justified. I've been calm with my posts here, however, as I'm in a different state of mind right now. I'm in a good place mentally and physically, and I don't want my actions or words shrouded in hate. I've certainly said many of the things in your posts to my W- she knows where I stand. 

Of all of the things that are potential hang ups of R, the why questions of "is this in her DNA and will I be fighting this for the rest of my life if I stay" and also the burning question in my mind and I think both of you touched on part of this- "how long would this have gone on if he hadn't grown impatient", and- and this is something that really gives me pause as it really can't be quantified- "if he had stayed the course, given the trajectory they were on, from acquaintances to colleagues to friends to texting buddies to flirting to some risque talk to downright filth...if he had stayed the course, how long before her will would have been broken down enough that him moving in for a kiss would have had her kissing back, or when he asked her to go somewhere with him or come to the doctor's sleep lounge or whatever...how long before it would have happened"?
These are the burning questions. 

I theorize that it would have happened with their running. As I mentioned, I've supported her hobby (and she has supported mine...guitar player, hence 'music_man'). My W is not a "5K every other weekend" type of runner. She does half and full marathons and would maybe do a couple of major races every year with a few 5k and 10k runs sprinkled in. We'd often make the runs an extended weekend together. Anyway, they never ran a race that I didn't attend while the affair was happening. Still, I do travel occasionally for work- typically a max of 4 times per year, but usually less. I could see them planning an easy hookup if were to have ever been out of town with a race nearby. I could see him giving her the "hey, why don't you come by my hotel and get a shower before you head back" sort of thing. It would be as easy as pie, and he was stalking her at runs- I see this so clearly now. I did some research and found that for 2-3 particular races, he only ran them when my W did- he had never ran them prior to meeting her and hasn't run them since their 'breakup'. This is easily verified by looking at the event websites, as most keep race history posted for many years. 

These are things I'm working through. Just because I've said I want to reconcile, it doesn't mean I'm ready to say "okay, the poly proves it. Let's just live happily ever after with rainbows and candy all around" of she passes the poly. I'm taking my time. She's doing the things she needs to do, but I need to see her do it for an extended period of time, and be confident that she's staying the course. As you all have said, I need to take care of me first. The 'us' part will come. This weekend was a step in the right direction.


----------



## notmyjamie

Music_Man said:


> These are things I'm working through. Just because I've said I want to reconcile, it doesn't mean I'm ready to say "okay, the poly proves it. Let's just live happily ever after with rainbows and candy all around" of she passes the poly. I'm taking my time. She's doing the things she needs to do, but I need to see her do it for an extended period of time, and be confident that she's staying the course. As you all have said, I need to take care of me first. The 'us' part will come. This weekend was a step in the right direction.


Sounds like you have a realistic plan. It's good that you are taking care of you. While you're doing that, she needs to take care of her...individual therapy is a step in the right direction. At some point some marriage counseling would probably be a good idea as well.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Good for you. You are taking the correct approach. There is still much heavy lifting to be done by your wife. Should you consider MC, please consider a male MC, I speak from experience.


----------



## notmyjamie

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Good for you. You are taking the correct approach. There is still much heavy lifting to be done by your wife. Should you consider MC, please consider a male MC, I speak from experience.


I'm not doubting you in any way, I'm just curious as to why? Are female counselors too biased? 

I've only gone to marriage counseling for one session and she basically said "I can't help you except to help you end it peacefully" so my husband cancelled our next appointment.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Yes, my cousin who has been a counselor for thirty years, she is female, when I asked her who I should see, she gave me three names, all men. She told me that from her experience women tend to be biased towards the female in her opinion. The first MC we started with held my FWWs feet to the fire and made her face the damage she did to me and our marriage. He was a godsend to say the least but he retired a year into our r and referred us to a wonderful counselor(male)who is just as good if not better than our first.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Good for you. You are taking the correct approach. There is still much heavy lifting to be done by your wife. Should you consider MC, please consider a male MC, I speak from experience.


I've also heard this with regards to the male perspective. We agreed to do MC after we've worked through a few more IC sessions. I'm actively searching for one now.


----------



## ABHale

Music_Man said:


> I meant to post this in my initial post this morning, but the gentleman who was my source called me last night. Let's just call him 'trusted friend' or 'TF' going forward.
> 
> He told me he was upset ever since we first spoke, and refuses to believe anything was happening between them (again, he doesn't know the full nature of the texts). This is simply based on what he saw every day. He was scrubbed into approximately 85% of the cases that my W would've been on with POSOM, and was present in the OR suite practically 100% of days my W was there. He was present in hallways, breakroom, cafeteria- anywhere W was. He says he never once saw them together, never saw them getting coffee, lunch, or in breakroom together. He said he never saw him flirt with my W.
> 
> He doesn't doubt that POSOM would try, given his past and present actions and given that my W is attractive; he just doubts that my W would've done anything to risk her marriage or career. He says she talked about me all of the time, even to POSOM. He says if anything happened it would have had to have happened away from hospital grounds. This is another confirmation that I need to ask the question about off campus excursions when the poly happens.
> 
> Anyway, it was an interesting call, and was nice to get some unsolicited feedback. And no, W has not been in contact with TF- this is not some rehearsed alibi. I asked him point blank and I checked her phone to be sure.
> 
> I sincerely hope that all of this information I've gotten isn't setting me up for the big 'crush'. I'll know soon enough.


This is great news if true. 

Your wife could have confided in TF and then he turns around and gives you what you need to hear. All of this could of happened at work, no phone required. 

Just hard to believe that they were not doing anything together at work, coffee or what ever. At the very least as friends.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> @sokillme @notmyjamie
> 
> Thanks to the both of you for your posts. That's the reason I posted here on CWI- I needed several different perspectives and I needed some opposing opinions.
> 
> For the record, I have shown plenty of anger with my W, and I believe it justified...VERY justified. I've been calm with my posts here, however, as I'm in a different state of mind right now. I'm in a good place mentally and physically, and I don't want my actions or words shrouded in hate. I've certainly said many of the things in your posts to my W- she knows where I stand.
> 
> Of all of the things that are potential hang ups of R, the why questions of "is this in her DNA and will I be fighting this for the rest of my life if I stay" and also the burning question in my mind and I think both of you touched on part of this- "how long would this have gone on if he hadn't grown impatient", and- and this is something that really gives me pause as it really can't be quantified- "if he had stayed the course, given the trajectory they were on, from acquaintances to colleagues to friends to texting buddies to flirting to some risque talk to downright filth...if he had stayed the course, how long before her will would have been broken down enough that him moving in for a kiss would have had her kissing back, or when he asked her to go somewhere with him or come to the doctor's sleep lounge or whatever...how long before it would have happened"?
> These are the burning questions.
> 
> I theorize that it would have happened with their running. As I mentioned, I've supported her hobby (and she has supported mine...guitar player, hence 'music_man'). My W is not a "5K every other weekend" type of runner. She does half and full marathons and would maybe do a couple of major races every year with a few 5k and 10k runs sprinkled in. We'd often make the runs an extended weekend together. Anyway, they never ran a race that I didn't attend while the affair was happening. Still, I do travel occasionally for work- typically a max of 4 times per year, but usually less. I could see them planning an easy hookup if were to have ever been out of town with a race nearby. I could see him giving her the "hey, why don't you come by my hotel and get a shower before you head back" sort of thing. It would be as easy as pie, and he was stalking her at runs- I see this so clearly now. I did some research and found that for 2-3 particular races, he only ran them when my W did- he had never ran them prior to meeting her and hasn't run them since their 'breakup'. This is easily verified by looking at the event websites, as most keep race history posted for many years.
> 
> These are things I'm working through. Just because I've said I want to reconcile, it doesn't mean I'm ready to say "okay, the poly proves it. Let's just live happily ever after with rainbows and candy all around" of she passes the poly. I'm taking my time. She's doing the things she needs to do, but I need to see her do it for an extended period of time, and be confident that she's staying the course. As you all have said, I need to take care of me first. The 'us' part will come. This weekend was a step in the right direction.


I think you need to come to terms with how you think of her sexuality and what that means to you in the confines of fidelity and how she thinks about it. Which is really not uncommon with women who cheat. Most husbands think of their wives sexuality as given to them when they are married. That's pretty normal and is actually a Judaeo Christian take on sexuality. Now if you follow that philosophy both spouses have given that to each other, but unfortunately there seems to be a double standard when it comes to men, but I digress. 

The point being that there is still a feeling in our culture that her sexuality was now yours. This is a very sacred part of herself that she gave to you, and you the same. This is obviously how you felt, but it's not how she felt or how she operated. I don't think this was about sex, I think it was about ego, but she traded her sexuality to this guy for a boost to her ego. I think she liked the attention and probably as she was aging she had some doubt if she still "had it" so to speak. This is where this guy comes it. But from your point of view and rightly so that sexually was no longer hers to give away. The question is does she get this now, will she ever get it? I think lots of spouses say they get it but they really treat it more like, "you can borrow this as long as i don't need it but once I need it again it's mine to use as I please". So she used something that you felt is rightfully yours to make herself feel good. 

I think this is even more prominent with women because sexuality is a currency that lots of women use, especially when they are young as an easy way to get an ego boost. I mean lets be realistic, it's easy, lots of men are dogs. I think because of this when they get older and are maybe feeling insecure it's an easy MO to go back to to that for a quick and temporary good feeling about themselves. 

The thing is your wife needs to protect you, even from the worst of her nature. That's her job. The question is even now is she once again going through the motions to placate you? Now maybe for you that is enough but if she doesn't emotionally understanding the sacred nature of the whole thing would really leave me feeling hollow. Is her sexuality yours or not?

The other thing is your wife likes sexual attention and maybe in a more raunchy way then you are used to. There is nothing wrong with that, frankly most men would love that. But how does that work? Is it only because it was new attention or is that because that is a side of herself that she has been afraid to show you. Maybe she feels guilty about it because of some misplaced puritan notion, even though it would be perfectly normal and even fun with her husband. Maybe you have a need to see her a pure and she senses that and doesn't want to disappoint you. I say that because of your quote about her and how shocking it was for you to see those texts. Maybe she has never felt safe enough to show you this side of herself. If there wasn't the adultery hanging over your marriage that could be a wonderful thing for you two to explore. Maybe after you heal you can. 

Which is not in anyway to say any of this is your fault but it is to once again talk about both of you really starting to be honest about everything even the painful scary stuff. I think both of you have to get a handle on who she really is.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> I think you need to come to terms with how you think of her sexuality and what that means to you in the confines of fidelity and how she thinks about it. Which is really not uncommon with women who cheat. Most husbands think of their wives sexuality as given to them when they are married. That's pretty normal and is actually a Judaeo Christian take on sexuality. Now if you follow that philosophy both spouses have given that to each other, but unfortunately there seems to be a double standard when it comes to men, but I digress.
> 
> 
> 
> The point being that there is still a feeling in our culture that her sexuality was now yours. This is a very sacred part of herself that she gave to you, and you the same. This is obviously how you felt, but it's not how she felt or how she operated. I don't think this was about sex, I think it was about ego. I think she liked the attention and probably as she was aging she had some doubt if she still "had it" so to speak. This is where this guy comes it. But from your point of view and rightly so that sexually was no longer hers to give away. The question is does she get this now, will she ever get it? I think lots of spouses say they get it but they really treat it more like, "you can borrow this as long as i don't need it but once I need it again it's mine to use as I please". So she used something that you felt is rightfully yours to make herself feel good.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is even more prominent with women because sexuality is a currency that lots of women use, especially when they are young as an easy way to get an ego boost. I mean lets be realistic, it's easy, lots of men are dogs. I think because of this when they get older and are maybe feeling insecure it's easy to go back to to that for a quick and temporary good feeling about themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is your wife needs to protect you, even from the worst of her nature. That's her job. The question is even now is she once again going through the motions to placate you? Now maybe for you that is enough but if she doesn't emotionally understanding the sacred nature of the whole thing would really leave me feeling hollow.
> 
> 
> 
> The other thing is your wife likes sexual attention and in a more raunchy way then you are used to. There is nothing wrong with that, frankly most men would love that. But how does that work? Is it only because it was new attention or is that because that is a side of herself that she has been afraid to show you. Maybe she feels guilty about it because of some misplaced puritan notion, even though it would be perfectly fine and even fun with her husband. Maybe you have a need to see her a pure and she senses that and doesn't want to disappoint you. I say that because of your quote about her and how shocking it was for you to see those texts. Maybe she has never felt safe enough to show you this side of herself. If there wasn't the adultery hanging over your marriage that could be a wonderful thing for you two to explore. Maybe after you heal you can.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is not in anyway to say any of this is your fault but it is to once again talk about both of you really starting to be honest about everything even the painful scary stuff. I think both of you have to get a handle on who she really is.


Good stuff here. There's a lot to unpack here, and I actually agree with much of it. We've talked a good bit about the sacredness of sexuality and so forth. It was, in my opinion, mostly about ego. It stroked her ego to have a hot shot surgeon telling her he wanted her. And yes, it allowed her to explore a side of herself that for various reasons, she was not comfortable with before. 

Yep, still much to unpack. But I have time- it's my timetable now, not hers.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> Good stuff here. There's a lot to unpack here, and I actually agree with much of it. We've talked a good bit about the sacredness of sexuality and so forth. It was, in my opinion, mostly about ego. It stroked her ego to have a hot shot surgeon telling her he wanted her. And yes, it allowed her to explore a side of herself that for various reasons, she was not comfortable with before.
> 
> Yep, still much to unpack. But I have time- it's my timetable now, not hers.


The question is, is she deep enough a person to get this? I don't think everyone is and I think those that cheat have a much harder time ever getting to that point. We are just SO different. That's why I think there are those who can cheat and those that never will. I don't think it's like people say everyone can, yes of course everyone has the ability but some will and some can't. I think it is much more black and white then gray. 

I say all that because I believe if you are someone who does "get it" it's a big let down to settle and be with someone who doesn't. 

The one who always settles in R is the spouse who was cheated on, it's just a question of how much they are willing to let that impact the quality of their life. 

WS never get that, and most never will.


----------



## ConanHub

Make sure a couple questions include generic adultery and don't specifically relate to the OM you know about.

Everything could be kosher and above board but she was very prepared for D-Day at an unusual level I don't think I've seen before.

She could have laid a path that leads where she wants you to look.

All the evidence was very convenient to locate with her help and painted her in a not too bad light.

Like I said, everything could be absolutely above board but it wouldn't hurt to question if the OM you have in your sights is the whole story.


----------



## Music_Man

ConanHub said:


> Make sure a couple questions include generic adultery and don't specifically relate to the OM you know about.
> 
> 
> 
> Everything could be kosher and above board but she was very prepared for D-Day at an unusual level I don't think I've seen before.
> 
> 
> 
> She could have laid a path that leads where she wants you to look.
> 
> 
> 
> All the evidence was very convenient to locate with her help and painted her in a not too bad light.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, everything could be absolutely above board but it wouldn't hurt to question if the OM you have in your sights is the whole story.


I do have some generic questions in there. There's no one else on the radar but I'm leaving no stone unturned at this point.


----------



## Music_Man

ABHale said:


> This is great news if true.
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife could have confided in TF and then he turns around and gives you what you need to hear. All of this could of happened at work, no phone required.
> 
> 
> 
> Just hard to believe that they were not doing anything together at work, coffee or what ever. At the very least as friends.


It actually makes some sense, given the context. The OM was not on staff at the hospital my W worked. He and his partner at the time (more on this in a bit) were brought on under contract as 'surgeons with privileges'. Their home hospital was a bit smaller and they were looking to expand their practice. The OM was at my W's hospital about 2.5 days per week, max. He would get there, get cases done, and get out. He wasn't one to sit and have coffee or lunch- he typically worked through. 

And as much as it was a shock to see the sex-laden texts, it would actually be a bigger shock to know my W sat and had coffee and/or lunch with this guy. She wouldn't have wanted the hospital gossip lines to pick up on anything. 

Knowing the layout of the OR suite and preop areas, my main concern with physical stuff comes down to this: there's not a lot of places to hide in this area, and too many people moving about. This explains the OM constantly trying to get my wife to leave the area. So my concerns are 1)did she ever leave to meet him somewhere, regardless of whether anything happened or not? Did she sit in his car with him or he in hers somewhere and talk intimately? Did they fool around in a car or elsewhere? And 2) I could see canceled cases being a potential problem. We all know that surgical procedures get canceled/rescheduled from time to time for a variety of reasons. In this instance, a canceled case could possibly give them both time to go to another area of the hospital- the dreaded dr's sleep lounge, or an empty office, a supply room, or wherever. 

The texts don't indicate she ever agreed to meet him and she of course denies ever being alone with him with enough time for anything, but they were alone long enough for him that he felt comfortable enough to try to kiss her. 

My mind has gone over these scenarios 1001 times. It's maddening at times.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> It actually makes some sense, given the context. The OM was not on staff at the hospital my W worked. He and his partner at the time (more on this in a bit) were brought on under contract as 'surgeons with privileges'. Their home hospital was a bit smaller and they were looking to expand their practice. The OM was at my W's hospital about 2.5 days per week, max. He would get there, get cases done, and get out. He wasn't one to sit and have coffee or lunch- he typically worked through.
> 
> And as much as it was a shock to see the sex-laden texts, it would actually be a bigger shock to know my W sat and had coffee and/or lunch with this guy. She wouldn't have wanted the hospital gossip lines to pick up on anything.
> 
> Knowing the layout of the OR suite and preop areas, my main concern with physical stuff comes down to this: there's not a lot of places to hide in this area, and too many people moving about. This explains the OM constantly trying to get my wife to leave the area. So my concerns are 1)did she ever leave to meet him somewhere, regardless of whether anything happened or not? Did she sit in his car with him or he in hers somewhere and talk intimately? Did they fool around in a car or elsewhere? And 2) I could see canceled cases being a potential problem. We all know that surgical procedures get canceled/rescheduled from time to time for a variety of reasons. In this instance, a canceled case could possibly give them both time to go to another area of the hospital- the dreaded dr's sleep lounge, or an empty office, a supply room, or wherever.
> 
> The texts don't indicate she ever agreed to meet him and she of course denies ever being alone with him with enough time for anything, but they were alone long enough for him that he felt comfortable enough to try to kiss her.
> 
> My mind has gone over these scenarios 1001 times. It's maddening at times.


My friend I get why all of this is of grave concern to you, but just please don't assume that if you get the best answer that suddenly it's going to feel better. Just understand that at the end of the day betrayal is betrayal and it is going to take time. Because she didn't stab you in the heart doesn't mean it doesn't hurt that she cut off a finger or two. 

My point is you are dealing with a new paradigm and it's going to take a while for the emotion to clear. Let that happen before you make your decision.


----------



## ABHale

Music_Man said:


> It actually makes some sense, given the context. The OM was not on staff at the hospital my W worked. He and his partner at the time (more on this in a bit) were brought on under contract as 'surgeons with privileges'. Their home hospital was a bit smaller and they were looking to expand their practice. The OM was at my W's hospital about 2.5 days per week, max. He would get there, get cases done, and get out. He wasn't one to sit and have coffee or lunch- he typically worked through.
> 
> And as much as it was a shock to see the sex-laden texts, it would actually be a bigger shock to know my W sat and had coffee and/or lunch with this guy. She wouldn't have wanted the hospital gossip lines to pick up on anything.
> 
> Knowing the layout of the OR suite and preop areas, my main concern with physical stuff comes down to this: there's not a lot of places to hide in this area, and too many people moving about. This explains the OM constantly trying to get my wife to leave the area. So my concerns are 1)did she ever leave to meet him somewhere, regardless of whether anything happened or not? Did she sit in his car with him or he in hers somewhere and talk intimately? Did they fool around in a car or elsewhere? And 2) I could see canceled cases being a potential problem. We all know that surgical procedures get canceled/rescheduled from time to time for a variety of reasons. In this instance, a canceled case could possibly give them both time to go to another area of the hospital- the dreaded dr's sleep lounge, or an empty office, a supply room, or wherever.
> 
> The texts don't indicate she ever agreed to meet him and she of course denies ever being alone with him with enough time for anything, but they were alone long enough for him that he felt comfortable enough to try to kiss her.
> 
> My mind has gone over these scenarios 1001 times. It's maddening at times.


How did they get close enough to start texting like they did without spending time together?

Doesn’t add up.


----------



## turnera

Music_Man said:


> Good stuff here. There's a lot to unpack here, and I actually agree with much of it. We've talked a good bit about the sacredness of sexuality and so forth. It was, in my opinion, mostly about ego. It stroked her ego to have a hot shot surgeon telling her he wanted her. And yes, it allowed her to explore a side of herself that for various reasons, she was not comfortable with before.
> 
> Yep, still much to unpack. But I have time- it's my timetable now, not hers.


This is where the book His Needs Her Needs comes in to play. It discusses that there are certain Emotional Needs that ONLY your spouse should meet. You can get a 'fun' EN met by a club. But you can NEVER get a sex EN met by anyone else.

Kind of off topic, but I'm a writer in a hospital environment. As such, I did three interviews this week of three different male physicians. They have all restored my faith in humanity. Each one, I told my coworker 'he's my new favorite doctor.' And then I met with the next one, and said the same. The last one? Wow! What an amazing person. I watched him buy a junior faculty a bowl of soup as we were conducting our interview, cos he's just that nice of a guy.

Not sure why I'm sharing this except to tell people that not all people in healthcare are *******s.


----------



## Music_Man

ABHale said:


> How did they get close enough to start texting like they did without spending time together?
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn’t add up.


They spent anywhere from 6 to 10 hours together in OR suites 2-3 times per week. She was the one who managed the schedule. Her desk was in an area with 3 cubicles just outside the OR area. His temporary office area was adjacent to those desks. She was in his office for 30 minutes or so in the morning. This was the case for the 4 years he was there, including the 2 leading up to the affair. 

Before you jump to conclusions about his office, it was a glass office with a glass door. I've seen it many times. Cameras and people all around. Still, with door closed, they could have talked about anything.


----------



## sokillme

That's rough.


----------



## sokillme

turnera said:


> I watched him buy a junior faculty a bowl of soup as we were conducting our interview, cos he's just that nice of a guy.


Buying someone soup on a doctors salary is easy. Being faithful to your spouse even though you are sought after because of your status or maybe even desperately lonely is harder.  

Remember you only truly know people's character when it's doesn't feel like keeping it is in your best interest.


----------



## Music_Man

Music_Man said:


> They spent anywhere from 6 to 10 hours together in OR suites 2-3 times per week. She was the one who managed the schedule. Her desk was in an area with 3 cubicles just outside the OR area. His temporary office area was adjacent to those desks. She was in his office for 30 minutes or so in the morning. This was the case for the 4 years he was there, including the 2 leading up to the affair.
> 
> Before you jump to conclusions about his office, it was a glass office with a glass door. I've seen it many times. Cameras and people all around. Still, with door closed, they could have talked about anything.


Just reread this. To clarify, the suite is the OR itself, and there were anywhere from 3-5 other folks in the room. Conversations were all over the place, but it's an easy place to get to know someone, even in a group setting. According to W and TF, they would talk about running and workouts and so forth, and everyone would talk about their families and weekends and whatever. Everyone knew everyone's family by name. An OR crew becomes a defacto family. 

The office he was in simply had 2 chairs and a large whiteboard with the daily schedule. They would go in and run through it in the morning. The first 2 years she wasn't the main coordinator but she was for the duration of the affair. They would've spent maybe 30 minutes total time in there every week. This is a high traffic area- right across from preop. Patients, families, docs, nurses, etc constantly moving through. But still conversations could have been semi-private. 

This is again why I want to make sure she didn't leave campus to meet him. Could've been arranged verbally. Just something else to think about.


----------



## turnera

sokillme said:


> Buying someone soup on a doctors salary is easy. Being faithful to your spouse even though you are sought after because of your status or maybe even desperately lonely is harder.
> 
> Remember you only truly know people's character when it's doesn't feel like keeping it is in your best interest.


Um...I wasn't talking about the OM. I was merely saying there are decent doctors out there. Chill.


----------



## Music_Man

Folks, I gotta tell you, last night was painful. Maybe the worst night since D-day or the day I checked into the hotel. My therapist had encouraged me to list 5 or 6 things that were my 'ultimate pain points'. Things that I know are going to take considerable time to get over, and the things that are occupying my mind daily. He encouraged me to face them now and not let them get buried or unresolved. He said these things need to be discussed with my W and discussed in detail and at length. She needs to know where I 'live', where and how I hurt, and she needs to know what the hardest things to forgive are going to be. She didn't say anything wrong last night, she hurts deeply as well but that's not on me to fix.

We've certainly talked about all of these things before, but last night I was finally able to articulate them the way that I needed to. In detail, we discussed them...really got down in the weeds and broke them all down. And it hurts...it just plain hurts. 

I feel guilty given some of the things that you all have walked through, but this still sucks- BIG time. 

And the thing is, while I'm still angry at her actions, angry at him, angry at myself, it's just plain sorrow...deep sadness of this loss. As I explained last night to her, the innocence and purity of what we had- it's gone. We can start fresh and we can have a great marriage, I feel, but this will forever be a stain. And it's just so sad that it happened. 

Sorry for the rambling. I just have some raw emotions today...heading into the poly tomorrow, just so much on my mind and my heart. As I said in my OP, I am healing, but I am most definitely still hurting.


----------



## ConanHub

turnera said:


> Um...I wasn't talking about the OM. I was merely saying there are decent doctors out there. Chill.


All doctors are skirt sniffers and all nurses are two timing hose monsters.

Didn't you know?

It is in the prerequisites!:wink2:


----------



## ConanHub

Music_Man said:


> Folks, I gotta tell you, last night was painful. Maybe the worst night since D-day or the day I checked into the hotel. My therapist had encouraged me to list 5 or 6 things that were my 'ultimate pain points'. Things that I know are going to take considerable time to get over, and the things that are occupying my mind daily. He encouraged me to face them now and not let them get buried or unresolved. He said these things need to be discussed with my W and discussed in detail and at length. She needs to know where I 'live', where and how I hurt, and she needs to know what the hardest things to forgive are going to be. She didn't say anything wrong last night, she hurts deeply as well but that's not on me to fix.
> 
> We've certainly talked about all of these things before, but last night I was finally able to articulate them the way that I needed to. In detail, we discussed them...really got down in the weeds and broke them all down. And it hurts...it just plain hurts.
> 
> I feel guilty given some of the things that you all have walked through, but this still sucks- BIG time.
> 
> And the thing is, while I'm still angry at her actions, angry at him, angry at myself, it's just plain sorrow...deep sadness of this loss. As I explained last night to her, the innocence and purity of what we had- it's gone. We can start fresh and we can have a great marriage, I feel, but this will forever be a stain. And it's just so sad that it happened.
> 
> Sorry for the rambling. I just have some raw emotions today...heading into the poly tomorrow, just so much on my mind and my heart. As I said in my OP, I am healing, but I am most definitely still hurting.


Your therapist is good. As painful as it was, it will help you heal so much better down the road.

You're doing great. How is she doing?


----------



## farsidejunky

MM:

Are you a perfectionist?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Music_Man

ConanHub said:


> Your therapist is good. As painful as it was, it will help you heal so much better down the road.
> 
> 
> 
> You're doing great. How is she doing?


Up and down. She's hurting after last night, for certain. She's trying to reconcile who she was and how she could've let things get that far. As some stated earlier, she definitely compartmentalized her work life into one box, and her family life into another. 

She has deep, deep regret. No doubts there. She's trying to heal but also trying to make sure I heal as well. She's handling it, but she's struggling a good bit as well.


----------



## Music_Man

farsidejunky said:


> MM:
> 
> Are you a perfectionist?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Been called that. I don't really see myself that way but I do have some perfectionist tendencies. I don't expect it out of others but do of myself. Yes, it's unrealistic.


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## TDSC60

I hope you find what you need.

One way or another, you will get through this. 

And you are right, your wife destroyed a prime part of your marriage for what she described as " a little harmless fun". That trust and uniqueness you thought you had has been shattered. It will never be the same as it was. You can forgive but you will never forget.

The huge question is - can you live with this woman knowing all this?


----------



## Music_Man

TDSC60 said:


> I hope you find what you need.
> 
> 
> 
> One way or another, you will get through this.
> 
> 
> 
> And you are right, your wife destroyed a prime part of your marriage for what she described as " a little harmless fun". That trust and uniqueness you thought you had has been shattered. It will never be the same as it was. You can forgive but you will never forget.
> 
> 
> 
> The huge question is - can you live with this woman knowing all this?


Your last sentence says it all. At this point, I say yes. I'm strong. I'm not who I was. She's not who she was. We just 'work' together. And yes, I love her and I'm still very much in love as well.

And I know there are some on here who still think she probably not only had a PA, but turned every corner of the hospital into their own little porn studio. That certainly doesn't appear to have been the case, but I get it- I do. 

In spite of what's happened- I love her. With all my heart really. If I am who I say I am, then my love will never fade- regardless of the past sins. That doesn't mean I'm willing to just 'forgive and forget' or whatever, or even put my heart on the line again. I'm not some uber-Christian-nice guy. I'm real and I'm broken, and I struggle with forgiveness in general. 

It does mean though, that today, right now, even in the middle of tremendous hurt caused by her, I can see us getting past this and still being unbelievably happy. I can see it. This past weekend shows just how great we can be, even in the middle of strife. And the past 2-3 years have been great with 2018 into 2019 just amazing. We can still have that, but there will be scars...there will be scars. I'm not naive enough to believe there won't be.


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## personofinterest

TDSC60 said:


> I hope you find what you need.
> 
> One way or another, you will get through this.
> 
> And you are right, your wife destroyed a prime part of your marriage for what she described as " a little harmless fun". That trust and uniqueness you thought you had has been shattered. It will never be the same as it was. You can forgive but you will never forget.
> 
> The huge question is - can you live with this woman knowing all this?


Actually, OP, it is "destroyed" to the extent that both of you allow it to remain destroyed. Your marriage can still be intimate, unique, etc. if you both CHOOSE to work toward that.

People who live with a marriage they describe as forever tainted are choosing 2 things: to view it as tainted forever and to stay in the marriage anyway.

You do not have to choose perpetual victimhood.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> Folks, I gotta tell you, last night was painful. Maybe the worst night since D-day or the day I checked into the hotel. My therapist had encouraged me to list 5 or 6 things that were my 'ultimate pain points'. Things that I know are going to take considerable time to get over, and the things that are occupying my mind daily. He encouraged me to face them now and not let them get buried or unresolved. He said these things need to be discussed with my W and discussed in detail and at length. She needs to know where I 'live', where and how I hurt, and she needs to know what the hardest things to forgive are going to be. She didn't say anything wrong last night, she hurts deeply as well but that's not on me to fix.
> 
> We've certainly talked about all of these things before, but last night I was finally able to articulate them the way that I needed to. In detail, we discussed them...really got down in the weeds and broke them all down. And it hurts...it just plain hurts.
> 
> I feel guilty given some of the things that you all have walked through, but this still sucks- BIG time.
> 
> And the thing is, while I'm still angry at her actions, angry at him, angry at myself, it's just plain sorrow...deep sadness of this loss. As I explained last night to her, the innocence and purity of what we had- it's gone. We can start fresh and we can have a great marriage, I feel, but this will forever be a stain. And it's just so sad that it happened.
> 
> Sorry for the rambling. I just have some raw emotions today...heading into the poly tomorrow, just so much on my mind and my heart. As I said in my OP, I am healing, but I am most definitely still hurting.


Sounds like you have a really good IC. You have to suck the poison out if you are going to heal. This is part of my long winded post to you. Deal with everything once and now. Then takes some time when the dust settles to decide what you want. 

I get it, I think a lot of the aftermath of an affair is mourning. I think you are right there is a disillusionment that you get with your spouse and your marriage when they hurt you deeply in a way that you never felt possible. When they are disloyal to you. Assuming what she said is true though I think you have it better then a lot, which is like saying you only lost your leg not your life. I get it. 

The one thing is, assuming her story is true I don't think there were any feelings for this guy, she didn't even partake she just didn't defend you or the marriage. Emotionally she didn't get that that side of herself was no longer hers to give to anyone else. That would be what I work on with her. Thing is if she does get it that may be an avenue for you to really grow close with. Vulnerability creates intimacy. 

I find that with almost all spouses who cheat like your wife, where there no real true emotional connections but basically they are just using the AP for ego gratification, tend to see their spouse like an old couch or something. They forget that there is a living breathing person whose emotional well being is partly their responsibility. It's like a shock to them how important that is to their spouse and that they may end up losing them because of it. 

Thing is, people do bad stuff and if her story is to be believed maybe she did stop before going down the point of no return. You have to decide if that is enough. Just make sure she gets it and is working to change first. Her remorse is not a reason to R but should always be a requirement. You have to decide. 

Yes your story can't be perfection anymore (but the truth is perfection isn't reality anyway) but you can have redemption.


----------



## Music_Man

personofinterest said:


> Actually, OP, it is "destroyed" to the extent that both of you allow it to remain destroyed. Your marriage can still be intimate, unique, etc. if you both CHOOSE to work toward that.
> 
> 
> 
> People who live with a marriage they describe as forever tainted are choosing 2 things: to view it as tainted forever and to stay in the marriage anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> You do not have to choose perpetual victimhood.


Thank you. Needed this. I don't want to 'wallow' in that time frame. If we aren't those people anymore then why live there? It certainly isn't going to change the past. I just need to make sure I give it the proper time in terms of healing and grieving. I know it's a cliche, but it is a process and it will take some time.


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## sokillme

One other thing, let me give you one other thing to think about. Make the success (even perfection) of your marriage (if you end it, but more importantly if you continue) be about how you loved your wife. How YOU behaved in your marriage. NOT how she loves you. You can't control how other people treat or feel about you, you can only control your own personal character. So it's only fair to judge yourself on that. 

Sometimes in life you lose, everything ends, feelings and situations change, YOU have to live up to your own moral standards no matter what. Have you failed in that regard?


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> but there will be scars...there will be scars. I'm not naive enough to believe there won't be.


Everybody's got 'em.


----------



## TDSC60

Music_Man said:


> Your last sentence says it all. At this point, I say yes. I'm strong. I'm not who I was. She's not who she was. We just 'work' together. And yes, I love her and I'm still very much in love as well.
> 
> And I know there are some on here who still think she probably not only had a PA, but turned every corner of the hospital into their own little porn studio. That certainly doesn't appear to have been the case, but I get it- I do.
> 
> In spite of what's happened- I love her. With all my heart really. If I am who I say I am, then my love will never fade- regardless of the past sins. That doesn't mean I'm willing to just 'forgive and forget' or whatever, or even put my heart on the line again. I'm not some uber-Christian-nice guy. I'm real and I'm broken, and I struggle with forgiveness in general.
> 
> It does mean though, that today, right now, even in the middle of tremendous hurt caused by her, I can see us getting past this and still being unbelievably happy. I can see it. This past weekend shows just how great we can be, even in the middle of strife. And the past 2-3 years have been great with 2018 into 2019 just amazing. We can still have that, but there will be scars...there will be scars. I'm not naive enough to believe there won't be.


Remember - it takes 2-5 years to heal from an affair with both spouses truly committed to making the new marriage work.

Consider the old marriage dead and gone. Now you are at the beginning of a new marriage. Both have to commit to the marriage and each other. Both have to want it to work, both have to strive to make it work. You are not starting from scratch, but you need to accept that you do not want to return to a marriage that allowed your wife to do what she did. You have to show your hurt and pain to her. You have to make her see that you are giving her a gift by trying to make a new marriage together.

My wife had an EA long before that label was even coined. I did not have to read any sexting because it was before mobile phones. I stayed with her. But almost 30 years latter, I still remember that time and wonder if it went PA or not (it could have easily). An affair is the gift that just keeps on giving. I don't regret my decision, but I'll always wonder if I had all the facts. Something in me died the day I found out and it never returned. Total trust in her? The thoughts that she was 100% honest? The firm thoughts that she could never do this to me? Total love?

In spite of all the doubts, I had to decide one simple question - would I be better or happier with her or without her as my wife? If she had shown any attempt as gas-lighting or blame shifting the decision would have been an easy one.

Good luck.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> One other thing, let me give you one other thing to think about. Make the success (even perfection) of your marriage (if you end it, but more importantly if you continue) be about how you loved your wife. How YOU behaved in your marriage. NOT how she loves you. You can't control how other people treat or feel about you, you can only control your own personal character. So it's only fair to judge yourself on that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes in life you lose, everything ends, feelings and situations change, YOU have to live up to your own moral standards no matter what. Have you failed in that regard?


My IC sessions are covering this now. Can't control what others do or how they'll react to what you do. Seems like such a simple concept, yet was lost on me for years.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> My IC sessions are covering this now. Can't control what others do or how they'll react to what you do. Seems like such a simple concept, yet was lost on me for years.


That is the key to life. Base your self worth on your own character. It's also a cheat because you end up doing good things for selfish reasons.

Good things doesn't mean being a pushover though, often times it's the exact opposite.


----------



## TDSC60

personofinterest said:


> Actually, OP, it is "destroyed" to the extent that both of you allow it to remain destroyed. Your marriage can still be intimate, unique, etc. if you both CHOOSE to work toward that.
> 
> People who live with a marriage they describe as forever tainted are choosing 2 things: to view it as tainted forever and to stay in the marriage anyway.
> 
> You do not have to choose perpetual victimhood.


His marriage can be anything he chooses to make it. Not perpetual victimhood, as one who lived it, I can tell you that his old marriage is dead and gone as it must be. A new marriage with stated boundaries has to be forged from the ashes of the old. Why would he want to return to an old marriage where his wife thought it OK to do what she did? He must remember this time and all the pain as a reminder. Wounds heal but scars remain and will fade but never go away.

It is not victimhood to remember what happened and to work at never allowing it to happen again. If he does not recognize what was broken, he cannot fix it and move forward. I believe this is his goal.

It is like a kid touching a hot stove. Once burned, they will never do that again. They remember the pain and will not want to feel that again. They remember the way it happened and will avoid that same circumstance


----------



## sokillme

What do you think your wife's understanding of all this is OP? I mean I am sure she is sorry, and you make it sound like she has read books and stuff so she had an idea about the steps to take, but reading a book and living it are different. 

Do you think she gets it, do you think she gets what she took from you? Your loss and why you are mourning? Do you think she is morning or is she the type to think you will just get over it and everything eventually will go back to the way it was? I think that right there can make a bid difference. What is she doing, is she in IC?


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> What do you think your wife's understanding of all this is OP? I mean I am sure she is sorry, and you make it sound like she has read books and stuff so she had an idea about the steps to take, but reading a book and living it are different.
> 
> Do you think she gets it, do you think she gets what she took from you? Your loss and why you are mourning? Do you think she is morning or is she the type to think you will just get over it and everything eventually will go back to the way it was? I think that right there can make a bid difference. What is she doing, is she in IC?


In all honesty, I wouldn't be here if I thought she didn't get it. Her attitude and her actions from disclosure until today have helped me think we have a fighting chance. She gets it- and last night was extremely difficult for her as well. She's down in the dirt with me. Like she said "I'm the one who put you here. I'll crawl along with you- through every rock and thorn". 

She understands that nights like last night are not for me to 'punish' her, but they are for my (and by extension our) healing. She asked again last night if she had taken any steps out of line and if she done anything to hinder my healing. To this point, she really hasn't. 

Yes, she is in IC. That was a condition I placed on her from day 1. Either go or I'm not coming home. No exceptions.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> In all honesty, I wouldn't be here if I thought she didn't get it. Her attitude and her actions from disclosure until today have helped me think we have a fighting chance. She gets it- and last night was extremely difficult for her as well. She's down in the dirt with me. Like she said "I'm the one who put you here. I'll crawl along with you- through every rock and thorn".
> 
> She understands that nights like last night are not for me to 'punish' her, but they are for my (and by extension our) healing. She asked again last night if she had taken any steps out of line and if she done anything to hinder my healing. To this point, she really hasn't.
> 
> Yes, she is in IC. That was a condition I placed on her from day 1. Either go or I'm not coming home. No exceptions.


Maybe you can use this as way to bring a deeper level of intimacy both emotionally and physically.


----------



## TAMAT

MM,

My take on this is also that your WW is not a serial cheater or a sex fiend.

She was a situational/contact cheater who was targeted by a psychopathic serial cheater.

That being said, the consequences are the same, with the exception that there is hope for recovery, where there would be almost zero hope were she a serial cheater.


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## TAMAT

MM,

Another reason for the polygraph is for you to decide what the consequences for the OM will be.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Good luck tomorrow Musicman. Hope it turns out okay. 

Peace.


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## Music_Man

Whew!!! Well, we're back from the poly. For those that don't care about the details below, she passed- all questions. 

I have to admit that I had a few butterflies when I told her where we were going, just out of concern for that car/parking lot confession that seems to happen so often with these. It didn't happen. Just the opposite, really. 

I had her meet me at a coffee shop about 2 blocks from the building. We go here fairly often, so I didn't have to explain anything. Once I told her where we were truly going, she was obviously a little upset, but didn't break down. She simply said "I knew it was coming at some point. I'm okay with it. I'm the one who brought us here. I've told you everything I possibly can, but I understand. I hope I can earn your trust."

At this point I felt confident that she would pass and I'd heard the real story. I felt it all along, but still...6 years and all.

I'll post the questions along with the responses and results. I'll then try to dive into each one just a little to let you all know why I chose these particular questions. I know some of you would have asked other questions, but these are the questions that I needed to ask- for my sake and my sake only. And yes, even though I asked one overarching question of physical touch, I did ask another specific one. The examiner suggested it- says it can catch them off guard and often is a tripping point. Glad it wasn't. 

So here we go, all yes and no questions-

1. Other than his attempted kiss, did you ever have any physical contact with OM besides what was absolutely necessary to do your job? No. No deception. 

2. Did you ever meet OM before, during, or after work hours away from the hospital campus? No. No deception. 

3. Did the OM ever touch your genitals, over or under clothing? No. No deception. 

4. Did you share pictures of yourself, clothed or unclothed, with OM ? No. No deception. 

5. Have you contacted or attempted to contact OM since leaving the hospital? No. No deception. 

6. Have you had other affairs or inappropriate relationships either before or after OM? No. No deception. 

So there you have it. I almost substituted a question for #3, since we were already asking about physicality, but I felt this specific question should be asked. I almost had him ask her "when OM tried to kiss you, did you kiss him back?", but I already had the texts indicating pretty clearly that she didn't, and I just felt the other question deserved a specific answer. I wanted to make sure he hadn't gotten a 'quick feel' or something that wasn't in the texts.

So, breaking it down a bit:

1. Just making sure nothing else happened from a physical sense. I asked him to say the "other than necessary for work" bit, as they obviously stood shoulder to shoulder at times and passed instruments back and forth. Just didn't want a 'false negative' out of it since they did come in contact for work at times. Examiner agreed it was a good idea.

2. This was a big one to me. Again, given my wife's standing and decorated career, I doubt she would risk it even in the fog of an affair. She would need to feel safe and secure. It would need to be somewhere else, and he knew it too. It's why he tried repeatedly to isolate her. This just backs up what the texts say...but still needed to be asked. Even if she passed the questions regarding physicality, if she failed this one, she would need to do some serious explaining as to why she was meeting him somewhere. It would establish intent. 

3. Redundant? Perhaps. Needed to be asked? For me- you bet. Question itself is self explanatory though.

4. My W was adamant that she would never be so careless (umm...you did have an affair...hello). She reiterated to me a few weeks ago that she never sent him a selfie or anything else either (she sends me a head shot a couple of times a week to say hello). She wanted to be sure I knew that she didn't send any. I wanted to be sure as well. Especially if nudes of my W are floating around out there somewhere. Notice the question was worded as 'share' instead of 'send'. Examiners suggestion- says she could've taken a picture and showed it to him, then deleted. Wouldn't have shown up in the texts.

5. Another important one. Making sure it did indeed end when she said it did.

6. I honestly didn't think this needed asking, but did anyway, just to be sure. Answer was as expected. 

So there it is. Today took its toll on us both, to be certain. She wasn't angry afterward- just wanted to embrace...and so did I. 

For what it's worth, the examiner told me behind closed doors that he's seen these cases over and over, and he told me to go home and rest easy- she's not lying. He said there's just no indication of it and that I should be relieved. 

How do I feel about it? Glad I did it, but sad that I felt I had to. Regardless of who she is today, she had an affair. Then she lied about it by hiding it for 6 years. I needed to make sure I wasn't being duped again, even though I knew in my heart that she was being honest. Folks, she's broken. Broken badly. It hurts her that she hurt me this way, and for that, I am thankful. Not thankful for her pain, but thankful that she's taken ownership and understands just how gut wrenching this has been for me. If she wasn't hurting, I'd be questioning the sanity of trying to R. 

I know that some of the thread participants and lurkers alike will still believe she's done more and that I just bought the lies again. That's okay- certainly your right to think so. I, however, feel the same as I did before the poly. And that's that we went (and are still going) through a God awful painful thing, but that it is pretty much as she has said it is. I have pretty solid evidence and a credible person who was there every day and saw nothing out of the ordinary. She passed a poly. No parking lot confession. I've tried my best to paint her into a corner with words and phrases, but she hasn't wavered. She's been supportive...and she hurts. I'm still going to have to work through some things, but we have something worth fighting for and that's all I can ask for right now.

Also, for those that think she planned this too well. We discussed the timing and her reading up on things at length last night and again today. It really was the conference she attended in September, and then we attended a couples retreat in October. Both of these served to light her on fire. She had always struggled with the lie, but now it was right in her face, and at a time when things were going so well with us. She said that something that was said in the conference and the overwhelming conviction prompted her to start reading up on how to reconcile, how to tell your spouse, how to help heal, etc. The line was (paraphrased) "if you truly want marital bliss and you want to walk in God's forgiveness, then if you are holding something from your spouse...even something from years ago, whether it's financial unfaithfulness, adulterous relationships, or even bitterness- you owe it your spouse to give them the truth. It will be painful, but the results will eventually be a truly fulfilled and beautiful marriage, like nothing you've experienced before." She said she'll never forget the words and how painful it was to look at me when she got home. A little while after this, I came under similar conviction to write down my thoughts and unreconciled feelings and questions, and just confront her- in detail. There's more to her digging in and preparing though- it had been building for some time- a couple of years really. She has picked up two new friends in the running world- two awesome ladies that were and still are an extremely positive influence. Being with them was bringing her under conviction, as she said she felt unworthy of their company while still holding onto the lies. She just needed the jolt that she got...she was working on herself and this was just sort of a final step. It was late Fall when she really started reading books and things. Yes, it still pisses me off she waited these years, but I'm starting to understand it more.

This is one of the pain points I just have to work with. If she hadn't taken the job to get away from him and shaken loose as she did, well...different story here altogether. And yes, I believe God's timing helped save us. We wouldn't have survived this in 2012-2014, and maybe not even 2015. We needed to reconnect and I needed to kick the depression. And we did, on both counts.

And so here I am, spilling my heart and soul to complete strangers on the interwebs. I have a feeling you all won't be strangers for long. I hope you can accept me as 'family'.

So, next steps? We want to do MC next. We are both well along in IC. There's plenty to talk about, for certain. 

I still have things to talk about with you all as well. When I'm up to it, I'll post my main pain points and how I'm trying to fight them. Hoping you all can share your battles as well. I also plan to be a regular here. I can help someone now, but will really be of help in the coming months and years as things progress. 

Again- if you're just lurking or even if you've contributed here and are either suspicious of something or you're going through the fire right now, I have two things for you:

1. Trust. Your. Gut. Don't delay! Start gathering evidence!

2. Get. Those. Texts. This really helped to save the day. Without them, I would've been forced to either blindly accept her story, or walk away. Either way, I would have never known the truth. How sad would that have been? 

Thanks again all- your words of wisdom have helped and are still helping. I'll keep you all posted with updates on the reconciliation. I'm not going anywhere- this a marathon, not a sprint.


----------



## mickybill

Around here there are a lot of stories that end up with lies and betrayal. Nice to hear some good results Music Man. I wish you and Mrs Music good luck in the future, it looks pretty good


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Musicman, trust me I know how you felt going to the polygraph. I was more nervous I think than my wife as I really expected a parking lot confession or a failed question. My results were same as yours. I am happy for you. I hope today was a big boost in making your marriage th best it can be. At least your wife did not fall for POSDOCs line of crap like mine did. Happy for you. The best is yet to come.


----------



## alte Dame

I believe it all. In my single life, I had plenty of experiences where I was 'being seduced' but it didn't turn into anything physical. It can happen. Your WW sounds like she was well out of her comfort zone with a player, but was still flattered and responsive. It was definitely an affair, and now you know the truth of it.

Best of luck going forward. You no doubt feel relieved, but don't expect to be 'over it' for a long time. There are a few couples here who have reconciled, e.g. Lonely Husband. If you stay with us, you may want to maintain a dialogue with some of these members.


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## Music_Man

mickybill said:


> Around here there are a lot of stories that end up with lies and betrayal. Nice to hear some good results Music Man. I wish you and Mrs Music good luck in the future, it looks pretty good


Some of the stories on here had me worried, to be certain. We cleared a hurdle today though, no doubt about it.


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## 3Xnocharm

Such a nice change of pace to read this outcome. I’m so glad for you! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wmn1

it's nice to see a poly turn up something good for once. Hopefully she works on boundaries from now on


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## ShatteredKat

Congratulation Mr. MusicMan!

I am "green w/envy!" - (sigh)


I *love* the polygraph questions & answers.


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## sokillme

Sounds like a good outcome. One thing, I don't think your wife's nature is to have affairs, I do wish that not all of your questions were not about this one man, but men in general. I personally think you are safe, I will get to why I think that more in a moment.

I think black and white thinking on this by both of you can help you gain some clarity. 

For instance I think you still take way to much ownership for your wife's actions. So you were depressed, why did that lead her to act out in such a way, why didn't she try to entreat you for instance. You also talk about trying to understand why she did this, like that somehow makes it better or it will make it hurt less. From a Christian point of view is there any place in the bible where there is talk of understanding the reasons for sin makes it more acceptable? I don't think so, sin is sin. You should treat it as such, and then forgive it. This is her sin and her choice, ultimately you have no part in it. Stop assigning yourself a part. Her affair was not a failure of you or your marriage. It was a failure of her and her alone. She really ****ed up, she is a flawed human being like the rest of us. OK, now grow to forgive her. Stay in the marriage if you want or don't. Her affair wasn't cause by a failure in you. 


YOU NEED to get this because it will be key to your healing and letting go. This was not about you, your worth or your marriage's worth. I feel like some people lie to themselves and try to find a reason because they think it will make it easier, but in doing that it's not really coming to terms with the stark painful reality. There is no reason that deep down is going to make this any less painful. There is no quick fix to make it seem reasonable. I think the best way to heal is to start with the truth as painful as it is. 

I'm glad that the marriage seminar helped you. It's a good idea to do things like that, but even your quote. 



> "if you truly want marital bliss and you want to walk in God's forgiveness, then if you are holding something from your spouse...even something from years ago, whether it's financial unfaithfulness, adulterous relationships, or even bitterness- you owe it your spouse to give them the truth. It will be painful, but the results will eventually be a truly fulfilled and beautiful marriage, like nothing you've experienced before."


It seems unfortunate to me that that was her motive because it seems like she did it so SHE could have a better marriage. Not because it was wrong to keep lying to you about this. The other thing is in typical Christian fashion it just assumes the marriage will continue. I just hate Christian pressure to save the marriage at any cost. It's wrong and not even biblical. We all don't have to be Hosea. You would be well within your rights now to divorce her if you wanted. That is just my thing. 

When I put myself in these situations I almost never would R but in your case I think I would. The main reason is because I don't think there was anything at all between your wife in this man, I think she never had any intention of having anything other then to get her ego stroked by him. He was entirely a tool for him to make herself feel attractive. I personally wouldn't even see it as an affair. I would see it as a terrible disrespect to me, our marriage, and herself. 

I personally think your wife's problem is pride. I think she is a high achiever and she takes pride in that. She likes to have people look at her as accomplished. She probably likes being told what a great nurse he is. I suspect she gets a lot of her self worth from other people's admiration. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that to a point, but in the same way looking for that flattery she found an avenue with this guy telling her how hot she was. She knew this guy was this way and it played into her wheelhouse, but in a twisted way. The question is why is hearing and getting peoples praise SO important to her that it would cause her to break her own morals. 

Like I think I said in my last post this would be a lot of what my conversations would be about. That and respect. Trying to figure out what the issue is. Like does she really respect you? Has something happened to change that, did she ever feel that way? Is it just that her ego is more important then her respecting you? 

I guess when I read stories like yours I am always struck how comfortable spouses are with acting like this with their partners. They seem so arrogant about it. It's like there is no fear at all. I don't think that is good. I think there needs to be a healthy fear. Not fear that you will leave, but fear that they need to be on their A-game or they are going to lose a good thing. Every spouse should know that they are the catch in their marriage. 

Also the older I get the more I see us men need to lead. We need to be setting the tone. You want to be achieving. You want to be projecting strength. And you should not be dependent. If you are not doing that you are letting yourself be at risk. Maybe you are, anyway that is just me and how I think, others think differently.


----------



## MattMatt

@Music_Man thank God literally, for that meeting.

It's influence is helping you both to heal.


----------



## Music_Man

@sokillme

You make some valid points. We've discussed much of this with each other and in our IC sessions. She doesn't actually have this huge ego, but she thoroughly enjoyed the compliments (I'm speaking of early on, before any flirting even began). Him complementing her on her work and how she ran things and how he'd never seen someone so well-equipped to do their job, etc. He did this sort of thing for months- really a year or more- before anything else took place. 

She said by the time the flirting started, she didn't really realize that lines were being crossed until the flirting ramped up in frequency and intensity. She says it was her arrogance that led her to believe she could handle it- she was too smart to get burned- and that she could stop this before it was a problem. 

By continuing though, the ego boost shifted from work to personal, and she couldn't just turn it off...though she did, in essence, when she got home every day. She said the 20 minute commute allowed her just enough time to sort of shift back into wife/mom mode. She would often run or workout after she got home, so that helped clear her head as well. She couldn't see it then, but sees it so clearly now. And again, ZERO boundaries. 

Yes, she absolutely compartmentalized her hospital life and family life into two separate boxes. And she says, again, her arrogance led her to believe she could handle it, and that he would eventually stop if she pushed back on going further. That actually did happen, but only after the texting turned to filth and the OM literally tried to turn it physical. 

As to how and when the lines were crossed, I found the text that changed the direction. My W laments this as much as anything, as she (correctly) surmises that there are 1001 ways she could've responded that would have ended it. She wishes she had simply taken this text straight to HR, then sent it to me. That would've been ideal...but I digress. 

The text was this- at the end of the day, my W would send him a text. He would be upstairs making rounds and visiting recovering patients. The text was always the same- "Hey doc. We're all finished down here and your on-call crew is on the clock. We're all about to leave, so let us know if you need anything else".
His response was either "okay thanks" or thanks- great job again today. Best crew ever!" On this particular day though, he responds "well, I do need something. I need you". W responded with "what do you need me for?" He replied with a winking emoji. W didn't respond, but that was it. She didn't establish a boundary here, didn't even say "don't say things like that", she left the door cracked and he pushed it open and walked right through. From there it slowly progressed to her returning and reciprocating in similar fashion. And down the rabbit hole she went...


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> @sokillme
> 
> You make some valid points. We've discussed much of this with each other and in our IC sessions. She doesn't actually have this huge ego, but she thoroughly enjoyed the compliments (I'm speaking of early on, before any flirting even began). Him complementing her on her work and how she ran things and how he'd never seen someone so well-equipped to do their job, etc. He did this sort of thing for months- really a year or more- before anything else took place.
> 
> She said by the time the flirting started, she didn't really realize that lines were being crossed until the flirting ramped up in frequency and intensity. She says it was her arrogance that led her to believe she could handle it- she was too smart to get burned- and that she could stop this before it was a problem.
> 
> By continuing though, the ego boost shifted from work to personal, and she couldn't just turn it off...though she did, in essence, when she got home every day. She said the 20 minute commute allowed her just enough time to sort of shift back into wife/mom mode. She would often run or workout after she got home, so that helped clear her head as well. She couldn't see it then, but sees it so clearly now. And again, ZERO boundaries.
> 
> Yes, she absolutely compartmentalized her hospital life and family life into two separate boxes. And she says, again, her arrogance led her to believe she could handle it, and that he would eventually stop if she pushed back on going further. That actually did happen, but only after the texting turned to filth and the OM literally tried to turn it physical.
> 
> As to how and when the lines were crossed, I found the text that changed the direction. My W laments this as much as anything, as she (correctly) surmises that there are 1001 ways she could've responded that would have ended it. She wishes she had simply taken this text straight to HR, then sent it to me. That would've been ideal...but I digress.
> 
> The text was this- at the end of the day, my W would send him a text. He would be upstairs making rounds and visiting recovering patients. The text was always the same- "Hey doc. We're all finished down here and your on-call crew is on the clock. We're all about to leave, so let us know if you need anything else".
> His response was either "okay thanks" or thanks- great job again today. Best crew ever!" On this particular day though, he responds "well, I do need something. I need you". W responded with "what do you need me for?" He replied with a winking emoji. W didn't respond, but that was it. She didn't establish a boundary here, didn't even say "don't say things like that", she left the door cracked and he pushed it open and walked right through. From there it slowly progressed to her returning and reciprocating in similar fashion. And down the rabbit hole she went...


You are going to eventually get to the place where both of you understand that she did it because she wanted to, not because it snuck up on her. There is not a married person alive who doesn't know what those text imply and what allowing that to continue means for your marriage. The thought is their spouse will never find out. And you wouldn't have if that conference hadn't happened. Just this act of 20 minutes every day transforming into Mom mode says it all. 

Look I'm not saying this to be mean I am saying it because you are going to get here sooner or later. If you get her 2 years from now and have to go through this all over again because you didn't really take your chemo now then it still very well might kill your marriage. 

At the end of the day she did it because she liked it and she wanted to. And you know what she got away with it until her change of morals changed her heart. 

I think you should try to hold you hat on the change, not on the fact that she just let this get out of control but really didn't want it. She was not passive in this. Once that text was sent and not shut down it was out of control.

The best thing that can come out of this for both of your marriage is for you to see each other and yourself with stark honesty. That will breed intimacy.


----------



## GusPolinski

I’ve not read the entire thread (or even the entire initial post), but I feel the need to point this out —

It wasn’t _just_ an emotional affair.

It was a physical affair.


----------



## personofinterest

GusPolinski said:


> I’ve not read the entire thread (or even the entire initial post), but I feel the need to point this out —
> 
> It wasn’t _just_ an emotional affair.
> 
> It was a physical affair.


Maybe you should read. She passed a polygraph


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> You are going to eventually get to the place where both of you understand that she did it because she wanted to, not because it snuck up on her. There is not a married person alive who doesn't know what those text imply and what allowing that to continue means for your marriage. The thought is their spouse will never find out. And you wouldn't have if that conference hadn't happened. Just this act of 20 minutes every day transforming into Mom mode says it all.
> 
> Look I'm not saying this to be mean I am saying it because you are going to get here sooner or later. If you get her 2 years from now and have to go through this all over again because you didn't really take your chemo now then it still very well might kill your marriage.
> 
> At the end of the day she did it because she liked it and she wanted to. And you know what she got away with it until her change of morals changed her heart.
> 
> I think you should try to hold you hat on the change, not on the fact that she just let this get out of control but really didn't want it. She was not passive in this. Once that text was sent and not shut down it was out of control.
> 
> The best thing that can come out of this for both of your marriage is for you to see each other and yourself with stark honesty. That will breed intimacy.


We've established with each other that while she didn't go looking for an affair, she was very much a willing and able participant. This is a major pain point for me. She willingly texted him again and again over an extended period of time. It only ended because he tried to cross the only boundary she had established...or the only boundary she had left.

Granted, she did the right thing by leaving the hospital and getting away from him, but yes- she was able and willing. 

Still, to deny that the circumstances played a role is to ignore a critical component as well. The circumstances certainly helped set the table, but my W did supply the food that kept feeding this.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> We've established with each other that while she didn't go looking for an affair, she was very much a willing and able participant. This is a major pain point for me. She willingly texted him again and again over an extended period of time. It only ended because he tried to cross the only boundary she had established...or the only boundary she had left.
> 
> I know you know this but those boundaries were not hers to set.
> 
> Granted, she did the right thing by leaving the hospital and getting away from him, but yes- she was able and willing.
> 
> Yes but why did she leave? To avoid the consequences of her actions? I personally would not give her credit for this. It's good that she did it but the motive wasn't for the marriages benefit. If it was she would have come clean right away. I judge this on the motive not the action.
> 
> Still, to deny that the circumstances played a role is to ignore a critical component as well. The circumstances certainly helped set the table, but my W did supply the food that kept feeding this.
> 
> I don't deny that but they shouldn't. I think they are important only in the sense that it tells her about who she is and her weaknesses. You didn't go through anything that every marriage goes through from time to time.


----------



## Music_Man

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... so she’s an especially skilled liar.
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares?
> 
> 
> 
> EA + physical proximity to EAP = PA
> 
> 
> 
> Might as well be Newton’s Fourth Law of Motion.


One thing I do see around these parts- some on here think that all affairs are the same, they all go physical, and that all who cheat are to be lumped into one basket.

I don't see it this way, and it's not because I have 'hopium' blinders on. I've done all I can to uncover anything physical. I have pretty solid evidence, and despite the issues within the time frame of the affair- I have a very good read on my wife's level of truthfulness. I'm not blinded by depression or anything else right now. Seeing things as clearly as I ever have. 

The poly wasn't needed, in my opinion- it just gives another level of confidence to the texts. She gave her story to me before I recovered the texts. She didn't know text recovery was even possible at that point. 

I also have an unbiased eyewitness from her surgical team. I'm not trying to turn a blind eye here AT ALL. I'm leaving no stone unturned. But I will not add things to this affair just to satisfy the folks that want to be proven right, that want to be proven that 100% of affairs are physical and 100% of cheaters can never be trusted again.

I do appreciate your opinion though- I appreciate all viewpoints.


----------



## personofinterest

GusPolinski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should read. She passed a polygraph
> 
> 
> 
> REDACTED.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you're so arrogant and bitter.


----------



## BluesPower

For OP...

I think you can rest assured that it was not physical, she passed. 

If she passed because she is a sociopath or a trained CIA operative and do know about any of that, then you have huge problems that you are not even remotely prepared to deal with...

Short of that, I think you should feel relatively safe that she has not slept around on you.

In your case, if she is being real and honest with you about everything, I think there is a chance that you guys could make it. 

Now the bad news... She still had an emotional affair. So how will you handle that? What happens in the future if she decides to go all the way with someone else? 

What if you are not really getting the job done in the bed room and she will not be honest with you? What if she really has lost attraction to you for whatever reason and she will not be honest with you? 

Not to drive you crazy, with all the what ifs... but where do you go from here?


----------



## turnera

Good time to read His Needs Her Needs and do the questionnaires.


----------



## Music_Man

BluesPower said:


> For OP...
> 
> 
> 
> I think you can rest assured that it was not physical, she passed.
> 
> 
> 
> If she passed because she is a sociopath or a trained CIA operative and do know about any of that, then you have huge problems that you are not even remotely prepared to deal with...
> 
> 
> 
> Short of that, I think you should feel relatively safe that she has not slept around on you.
> 
> 
> 
> In your case, if she is being real and honest with you about everything, I think there is a chance that you guys could make it.
> 
> 
> 
> Now the bad news... She still had an emotional affair. So how will you handle that? What happens in the future if she decides to go all the way with someone else?
> 
> 
> 
> What if you are not really getting the job done in the bed room and she will not be honest with you? What if she really has lost attraction to you for whatever reason and she will not be honest with you?
> 
> 
> 
> Not to drive you crazy, with all the what ifs... but where do you go from here?


Believe me- none of this is lost on me, and it's keeping my therapist employed. 

A couple of things- if I felt my W was not genuine and not truly committed to me and me only, we'd be done. Okay- so let's say that she is, but a new doc or new CEO comes to work directly with her now, and she finds them attractive and they slowly start saying all the right things and...well you know where I'm headed. 

For one thing, effective boundaries are key. As we read in "Not Just Friends", and my therapist agrees, your love- no matter how strong and true- will not affair-proof your marriage. Clear and effective boundaries are an absolute must.

The boundaries are there and have been for some time. We've both learned some difficult lessons here.

Transparency in all aspects of our relationship is also paramount. 

As far as our love life- I'm confident that she is fully satisfied and is honest there. We're as transparent as we can be right now, and our love life was already 'next level' (at least to us, lol) as of recent years, with last year and before D-day bringing us tons of intimate encounters and tons of REALLY good intimate encounters at that- and more importantly- true intimate connection. This isn't an area of concern at this point. Granted, we have to reconnect since all of this has come to light, but we're both confident it'll be better still. 

I take care of myself. I'm in better shape now than I was 10 years ago- easily. Still, attractive people will be around and jerks will be jerks. Boundaries and transparency are key, and me keeping both eyes open to potential dangers. I don't want to be her 'warden' and wouldn't dare try to be- that's no way to live. But I WILL be watching for potentially dangerous and toxic people. 

She's in such a good work environment now, great oversight and a great team who I've gotten to know very well. Still, my radar will be up if and when potential danger shows up.

Oh, the 'what ifs'. I've been a permanent resident in 'what if' land for 3 months now...I don't expect to leave anytime soon.


----------



## Music_Man

Let me also add that being at the top of the chain now is nice- she's in her office that she shares with her subordinate (female, older- good person to be around) most of the time, and deals mostly with the CEO and nursing staff. The CEO is much older, and his wife works across the hall as the Admin manager. W reports only to CEO.

She only deals with credentialing and so forth with docs- not with them in OR except for rare occasions, mostly dealing with his/her staff and not directly with docs at all. Hours are set, nothing crazy. 

Much, much better environment all around. CEO sets the tone- great guy. Very protective of staff.

Still, the CEO will retire at some point. His replacement for all we know could be a 40 something guy with Tom Cruise-in-his-prime good looks and a charming personality.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Musicman, I think you have nothing to worry about as far as a physical affair is concerned. Keep in mind most posters a genuinely concerned about you, and yes, most lean towards D rather than R. Now is the time for your wife to decide to do whatever it takes to make this up to you.

We were advised in MC during the early phase of our R to keep dating, like we were prior to marriage. Make each date special and exciting as possible. Take time to dress up and look good for each other. I make it a point at least twice per week to take my wife to dinner.

You have tuned the corner for the better my good man. You handled this situation picture perfect from the view of a guy who has been there done that. Now, go get your wife after work and give her a ginormous hug and kiss.


----------



## notmyjamie

I'm glad things are progressing the way you'd hoped musicman. I'm hopeful for you that continued IC and marriage counseling will help you and your wife strengthen your marriage and commitment to each other. 

You have a good head on your shoulders.


----------



## Wolfman1968

GusPolinski said:


> REDACTED.


You should read the whole thread.

Not only did she pass the polygraph, but OP found texts by the OM who seemed frustrated that he got shut down by the wife. 

I'm not saying that your rule isn't USUALLY true, but in this case it seemed that the OM played it too cool and slow so he wound up getting shut out before he closed the deal. 
It's the small % exception situation.


----------



## personofinterest

wolfman1968 said:


> guspolinski said:
> 
> 
> 
> redacted
> you should read the whole thread.
> 
> No only did she pass the polygraph, but op found texts by the om who seemed frustrated that he got shut down by the wife.
> 
> I'm not saying that your rule isn't usually true, but in this case it seemed that the om played it too cool and slow so he wound up getting shut out before he closed the deal.
> It's the small % exception situation.
> 
> 
> 
> exactly
Click to expand...


----------



## Decorum

BluesPower said:


> For OP...
> 
> I think you can rest assured that it was not physical, she passed.
> 
> If she passed because she is a sociopath or a trained CIA operative and do know about any of that, then you have huge problems that you are not even remotely prepared to deal with...
> 
> Short of that, I think you should feel relatively safe that she has not slept around on you.
> 
> In your case, if she is being real and honest with you about everything, I think there is a chance that you guys could make it.
> 
> Now the bad news... She still had an emotional affair. So how will you handle that? What happens in the future if she decides to go all the way with someone else?
> 
> What if you are not really getting the job done in the bed room and she will not be honest with you? What if she really has lost attraction to you for whatever reason and she will not be honest with you?
> 
> Not to drive you crazy, with all the what ifs... but where do you go from here?



MusicMan, I have skipped ahead, but she passed the polly, and that is good news. I think it is what it seems. Many people cheat one time, and see the damage, and what they stand to lose and deeply regret their choice. That is growth as a person. This site is all about that, well ostensibly.

Don't let yourself frame this as, "she chose someone else over me", she simply followed her needs and her lust and used extremely poor judgment against what she herself believed in. It was fundamentally a character issue. From what you have shared it seems unlikely she will ever go there again. As I said growth.

I wish you both well!


----------



## TDSC60

I don't think MusicMan is so blinded by "hopium" that he is willing to just take whatever she is offering him and be happy. He has thought all this through, including all the "what if's" and has come to a decision and plan for moving forward he is comfortable with.

Good luck MM to you and Mrs MM (wait - should that be Mrs MW?).

And stick around. The voice of experience is always needed.


----------



## Music_Man

TDSC60 said:


> I don't think MusicMan is so blinded by "hopium" that he is willing to just take whatever she is offering him and be happy. He has thought all this through, including all the "what if's" and has come to a decision and plan for moving forward he is comfortable with.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck MM to you and Mrs MM (wait - should that be Mrs MW?).
> 
> 
> 
> And stick around. The voice of experience is always needed.


I'll be here- not going anywhere!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Indeed you should stick around, and share your wisdom with others battling infidelity. Many on this board ,similar to you, assisted me through my dark period and helped me defeat cranial rectal inversion ( head up my ass)and do what was necessary.
You can really help others when the situation arises.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Now without really want to know did you give your wife a big huge hug last night and just hold her?


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Now without really want to know did you give your wife a big huge hug last night and just hold her?


Indeed. And it felt really nice.


----------



## ABHale

Music_Man I am glad it has worked out for you.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I held my wife for I bet you and hour when we decided to reconcile. Great feeling just to have her in my arms. Nice moment for each of us it was.


----------



## Music_Man

ABHale said:


> Music_Man I am glad it has worked out for you.


We still have work to do, but I'm optimistic that our best days are ahead of us.


----------



## sokillme

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I held my wife for I bet you and hour when we decided to reconcile. Great feeling just to have her in my arms. Nice moment for each of us it was.


This is why I know I couldn't do it. Just the thought of this seems so foreign to me I can't work my brain around every wanting to touch someone who did that to me again. Also your situation was much worse then OP at least in how my mind works. No offense to you, it's just that I know that people read that and think what a romantic happy ending, but others like me read that and it turns their stomach. Goes to show how different people are when it comes to this.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

sokillme said:


> This is why I know I couldn't do it. Just the thought of this seems so foreign to me I can't work my brain around every wanting to touch someone who did that to me again. Also your situation was much worse then OP at least in how my mind works. No offense to you, it's just that I know that people read that and think what a romantic happy ending, but others like me read that and it turns their stomach. Goes to show how different people are when it comes to this.


 ^This^

I'm happy for and support MM and NLLH and truly hope they have a happy ending, but they both possess an ability to overcome *betrayal* (in any sense of the word) that I'm not sure I possess. That is great for them, not so much for me I guess.


----------



## Music_Man

@sokillme @Rubix Cubed

It's not easy. As I said earlier, I'm not a very forgiving person by nature. I've chosen this route based on a number of factors- some of which you all have seen, and some of which are personal and I won't share. 

At the end of the day, I've had to ask to myself several very VERY difficult questions. Working with a therapist has helped- but ultimately, I've made a choice. 

And it doesn't make me weak in any sense of the word. My W knows where I stand and that she's got some heavy lifting to do. Walking out the door one day after D-day and telling her 'don't call me, I'll call you...I'm not sure if I'll be back. See ya" helped to set the tone. Forgiveness does not mean amnesia and it doesn't mean you condone the actions. 

Forgiveness has opened my eyes to things though. It's hard to explain. You'd simply have to live it to understand. You'd have to be us...in our shoes. Every situation is unique, even though certain tendencies do cross over in affairs...each situation is different. 

FWIW, I've ready many MANY situations where folks have chosen to reconcile when there's no way I would have even attempted it, based on the information given here.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> @sokillme @Rubix Cubed
> 
> It's not easy. As I said earlier, I'm not a very forgiving person by nature. I've chosen this route based on a number of factors- some of which you all have seen, and some of which are personal and I won't share.
> 
> At the end of the day, I've had to ask to myself several very VERY difficult questions. Working with a therapist has helped- but ultimately, I've made a choice.
> 
> And it doesn't make me weak in any sense of the word. My W knows where I stand and that she's got some heavy lifting to do. Walking out the door one day after D-day and telling her 'don't call me, I'll call you...I'm not sure if I'll be back. See ya" helped to set the tone. Forgiveness does not mean amnesia and it doesn't mean you condone the actions.
> 
> Forgiveness has opened my eyes to things though. It's hard to explain. You'd simply have to live it to understand. You'd have to be us...in our shoes. Every situation is unique, even though certain tendencies do cross over in affairs...each situation is different.
> 
> FWIW, I've ready many MANY situations where folks have chosen to reconcile when there's no way I would have even attempted it, based on the information given here.


Well a couple of things. I think I said I would have tried to R in your case. I really think your wife's actions were all about getting her ego stroked and there was no relationship what so ever. She just used this guy because he is an easy target. I see it more like porn then an affair, especially since you have read the texts and she doesn't respond really just takes in the complements doesn't shut them down, just enjoys them. Doesn't reflect well on her character but it's not the same in my mind as a full fledged affair.

Second I never said you are weak or thought that. I don't think NLLH is weak either. Are there some people who stay in the marriage because they are week? Of course but I don't think either of you are. Most of the people who are on here who stayed don't come across as weak to me. Misguided? Some. I also think some men stay because it fits their Knight in Shining Armor narrative and their wives know this about them and take advantage of them. Which to me makes it a risk, but I think that is the dynamic the men want. They want to see their wives as delicate naive flowers who know no better, even though most of them are very sharp vampires. 

Hell there was one guy who use to post on here, doesn't much anymore sadly, whose wife actually had some other guys kids and lied to him. I didn't see him as weak. I felt terrible for him but I didn't think he was weak. I couldn't do that. 

I do think I would stay with my wife though if I were you. I would also be pursuing this side of her once I was fully healed.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> Second I never said you are weak or thought that. I don't think NLLH is weak either. Are there some people who stay in the marriage because they are week? Of course, I don't think either of you are. Most of the people who are on here who stayed don't come across as weak to me. Misguided? Some. I also think some men stay because it fits their Knight in Shining Armor narrative and their wives know this about them and take advantage of them. Which to me makes it a risk, but I think that is the dynamic the men want. They want to see their wives as delicate naive flowers who know no better, even though most of them are very sharp vampires.


A couple of things- I didn't mean to imply that you saw me as weak, I was just generalizing based on some posts I've seen from others in other threads. Some seem to think forgiveness = weakness. I think it's the opposite, in the right circumstances. Walking away would be easier much of the time. 

The second part of your paragraph above- I totally get this. For me, if I thought my W had this tendency or if I thought in any way that there was a pattern or even a real chance that something like this could easily happen again- I wouldn't be working on R. Not worth it if you need to constantly be monitoring every thought, move, action, word, text, call, or email for the rest of your life.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> Some seem to think forgiveness = weakness.


And some think forgiveness = staying married.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> And some think forgiveness = staying married.


Yes- you can forgive and walk away. I've done it to others in my family.

Edit- not in my household. Extended family.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Rubix Cubed said:


> ^This^
> 
> I'm happy for and support MM and NLLH and truly hope they have a happy ending, but they both possess an ability to overcome *betrayal* (in any sense of the word) that I'm not sure I possess. That is great for them, not so much for me I guess.


 @Rubix Cubed and @So Kill Me, we are both happy. We had too may good years to chuck it all. Thankfully, she gets it and has been nothing but honest, open, and in touch with our needs. We were two broken people and we have fixed ourselves.
I know she will never stray again and trust is back, but it has taken three years to get here.

R is not for everyone. As I have stated before, sometimes D is necessary. I was “here but not all there” when I was battling my PTSD. I love my wife more than my own life. I am not ashamed to state that, even after what she did. However, R was 100% on my terms the first year. She did the heavy lifting required to help me heal.

:smile2:


----------



## TAMAT

MM,

Given the nature of this OM it is a testament to your WW that she was able to hold out.

I say this because seeing these kinds of OM work, they get close very fast and they know what they are doing. 

Also OM2 and OM3 in my case were doctors and they seem to pick women who, like your WW are married and seem to be decent and unlikely to have STDs. 

They also like that decent women are the most likely to feel shame and least likely to confess.

So now what are you going to do about the OM?


----------



## Music_Man

TAMAT said:


> MM,
> 
> 
> 
> Given the nature of this OM it is a testament to your WW that she was able to hold out.
> 
> 
> 
> I say this because seeing these kinds of OM work, they get close very fast and they know what they are doing.
> 
> 
> 
> Also OM2 and OM3 in my case were doctors and they seem to pick women who, like your WW are married and seem to be decent and unlikely to have STDs.
> 
> 
> 
> They also like that decent women are the most likely to feel shame and least likely to confess.
> 
> 
> 
> So now what are you going to do about the OM?


I think that only seeing him a couple of days a week and that she only texted him during work hours helped to keep things moving a little slower, and having a gorgeous wife and a couple of 'side pieces' at his main hospital helped to keep him pacified while he was working on things with my W. There are a lot of little things that helped us here- one little piece of the puzzle moving ever so slightly could've turned things inside out.

I don't think I've mentioned this tidbit- I mentioned that my W wasn't on his on-call team. She was already on a team, working opposite weeks from the OM. They were never in the hospital together on weekends or after hours, and this is HUGE, as well...opportunity and proximity and all. The surgeon that ran my W's team hated the OM. He was old, cranky, and didn't like the young hot shots. He wanted my wife's crew because they were more mature (my W was the youngest) and knew how to get in and get out and get home. 

Well, this POSOM lobbied to have my W put on his team. There's even a texting thread where we was basically begging her to try to join- it was pathetic, really. My W kept saying "I dont think that's a good idea. We need to keep some space." and so forth. She finally told him to stop asking, that she was with the other doc until he retired, and the she hoped she would be off the call rotation altogether. He was pissed-.and even stopped texting her for awhile. Like a child...sickening. 

I want to take all of my information to the right folks and let karma run it's course. He needs exposing at a high level. He's left a trail of damage far and wide and I'd hate to see this keep happening to good folks.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Music_Man said:


> I want to take all of my information to the right folks and let karma run it's course. He needs exposing at a high level. He's left a trail of damage far and wide and I'd hate to see this keep happening to good folks.


 I'm sure I'll get roasted for this but I hope you **** that crap weasel's life up six ways from Sunday.


----------



## arobk

There are not a lot of happy endings around here. I am glad you got one.


----------



## MattMatt

Rubix Cubed said:


> I'm sure I'll get roasted for this but I hope you **** that crap weasel's life up six ways from Sunday.


I think you will find that he has already done that himself.

And as far as POSOM and the fact that he stopped texting, one of his other targets may have come through so he didn't need MM's wife at that point.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> @Rubix Cubed and @So Kill Me, we are both happy. We had too may good years to chuck it all. Thankfully, she gets it and has been nothing but honest, open, and in touch with our needs. We were two broken people and we have fixed ourselves.
> 
> I know she will never stray again and trust is back, but it has taken three years to get here.
> 
> 
> 
> R is not for everyone. As I have stated before, sometimes D is necessary. I was “here but not all there” when I was battling my PTSD. I love my wife more than my own life. I am not ashamed to state that, even after what she did. However, R was 100% on my terms the first year. She did the heavy lifting required to help me heal.
> 
> 
> 
> :smile2:


This is the crux of it right here. Reconciliation is not for all situations, but in our cases, is very possible and certainly worth the effort. So many factors here, but one of the chief factors is the quality of the relationship before infidelity, and in my case, what it's been like since as well.

We've had 6 years since they broke it off, and while it's still very fresh to me, our marriage recovered quite nicely from my depression and my W's time w/OM. Each year got progressively better, with the last couple of years being downright amazing at times, and the early part of 2019 really showing our full potential as a couple.

Of course, I didn't know then what I know now, but we're talking about the overall relationship. Which, by the way, was also very good from our dating days and into even 2010...other than that we took each other for granted at times. Still, the period leading up to the affair and the period after are both really special. We have something worth fighting for, no doubt about it. 

I know we can recover, IF we give it the proper time and my W continues to do the right things. If I didn't think it was possible, I'd be on here asking for advice on attorneys and separating assets instead.


----------



## Music_Man

MattMatt said:


> I think you will find that he has already done that himself.
> 
> 
> 
> And as far as POSOM and the fact that he stopped texting, one of his other targets may have come through so he didn't need MM's wife at that point.


Your second paragraph is spot on. 

I just had an amazing and enlightening phone conversation with the POSOM'S ex-wife. My TF suggested I reach out to her as she might be able to add additional insight and she hates the OM now from what he knows (he's still Facebook friends with her). I was skeptical, as I was concerned about opening a new can of worms, but I'm glad I made the call!

I'll do a separate post to cover the contents of the phone call. This guy is something else. Oh, and no new insights on W's affair with him- she knew nothing of it...


----------



## Music_Man

Okay- so as I mentioned in the previous post, I reached out to OMs ex-wife. Yes, this was dangerous as the conversation could've went several ways, but man am I glad I did. 

I contacted her through Messenger, telling her vaguely that I was trying to piece together some incidents involving her H, and told her my TF sent me. Her response was chilling: "did he ruin your marriage too? Yes, please call me at (number) at your leisure."

So call I did. I was not prepared to hear what I heard, I can tell you that much. Nothing incriminating on my W- she knew nothing of the affair. She said she just wasn't concerned with texting or phone use, as a person in his position gets texts/calls/etc constantly. 

She just unloaded on me folks. Basically used me as a therapist- even though she's been in therapy for years now. She spent more than half an hour pouring over her mistakes and how much of a sociopath he really is. Chillingly, she said a statement my W made- "he's only good at two things. Surgery, and deception. He has nothing else to offer anyone".

She was his AP some years back. She was working in administration at the hospital he's at now, and they would come in contact in staff meetings. She was a runner and triathlete like him, and that was his angle. She said he 'showed up' at her gym a few times, and they soon began going for runs after work. She said they first got together physically at a run out of town. Again CHILLING to hear this, as I suspect he had similar plans for my W. Unfortunately for this lady, she and her hubby weren't happy and he rarely went to her events. She said the OM enticed her to his hotel, and that was that. She said they would often find events out of town, and just spend the night together. His wife at the time caught them when she showed up at a run to surprise him. She saw them together and followed them back to the hotel. It was ugly is all that she would say.

He actually broke up his first wife's engagement. So, if you're keeping score, this is now 4 known ruined marriages, and at least one (mine) in recovery. She says he had side pieces all over, but yes- almost all had the same persona- married, family lady, mothers, clean, etc. She knows it was the conquest and the thrill of it all. He almost always made a point to meet husbands (did in my case) and played the 'all American guy' card well. 

On the affair that ended her marriage to him...she was growing suspicious about his on-call hours. She started looking at his schedule vs drive times and so forth, and he had several unaccounted for hours most of his call weeks. He contacted his office manager and asked if she'd seen anything. She told her point blank- "he's talking to a lady in medical records a lot. I caught her leaving his office recently when I got back from lunch. Seemed odd". His ex wife said she threatened to kick the hell out of his manager for not telling him. She asked her to keep watch and call her if she saw anything else. So she did...while in the act. OM didn't know his manager saw them...he got careless for once (she must've been REALLY good). Ex wife was called, showed up, and got them on video. They had to pull her off of both of them, is her story. 

The time frame of spring 2013 that she gave me coincides with him ramping up pressure on my W, her declining, and him giving her the "then we're done" text. So yeah @MattMatt it seems as though he had another either already in the sack or in the works. 

As I told his ex wife my story, she just lost it- sobbing like crazy. She said it sounds just like her story with the exception of my W having stronger will or whatever. This lady has an unbelievable amount of guilt and shame still coursing through her. She's turned her life around though- very active in her church and started her own gym and training company. 

I told her I'd love to bring him to his knees, but that my main focus was restoring my marriage. She says she'll help if she can- she has plenty of evidence, and knows of a couple of other women after her that fell prey to him. The problem is the head administrator is his absolute best friend and advocate...and...sickening...had an affair BEFORE the OM with the lady he's with now! That's right, the administrator had a fling with her sometime in 2012, just before POSOM got to her. She said that has happened since as well. 

This guy deserves whatever he gets, for certain. I'll do some checking, but this may be the sort of thing a licensing board needs to hear. 

I'm going to tread lightly though. I'm not planning on exposing my W through this. Their affair has been over for 6 years and our children don't need to know these things. She's always been an outstanding mother- no need to tarnish that just to try to speed up karma. 

He was forced to stop working at the hospital my W was at though, so it at least narrowed down his playpen. 

Unbelievable this guy!


----------



## personofinterest

Rubix Cubed said:


> Music_Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to take all of my information to the right folks and let karma run it's course. He needs exposing at a high level. He's left a trail of damage far and wide and I'd hate to see this keep happening to good folks.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure I'll get roasted for this but I hope you **** that crap weasel's life up six ways from Sunday.
Click to expand...

 I have to say I agree with you. I think anyone that injects themselves into someone's life in a way that can jeopardize a family ought to have their a** handed to them slowly and painfully.


----------



## personofinterest

MattMatt said:


> Rubix Cubed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure I'll get roasted for this but I hope you **** that crap weasel's life up six ways from Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you will find that he has already done that himself.
> 
> And as far as POSOM and the fact that he stopped texting, one of his other targets may have come through so he didn't need MM's wife at that point.
Click to expand...

 Probably so. When I was vulnerable and naive quite a few years ago and fresh out of a badd marriage, a charming seeming man communicated with me pretty aggressively and assertively for a while. Turns out he was communicating with several women in the same little circle group, and the one of us who jumped on the chance to go on a trip with him was the 1 he ended up picking. I think he was just throwing stuff against the wall with all of us to see who would take the bait 1st period he is now married to that woman, he convinced her to make some horrible financial decisions and decisions regarding her children, and I sometimes wonder what her life is like.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> Your second paragraph is spot on.
> 
> I just had an amazing and enlightening phone conversation with the POSOM'S ex-wife. My TF suggested I reach out to her as she might be able to add additional insight and she hates the OM now from what he knows (he's still Facebook friends with her). I was skeptical, as I was concerned about opening a new can of worms, but I'm glad I made the call!
> 
> I'll do a separate post to cover the contents of the phone call. This guy is something else. Oh, and no new insights on W's affair with him- she knew nothing of it...


Did you make your wife say hi? 

You should have.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> Okay- so as I mentioned in the previous post, I reached out to OMs ex-wife. Yes, this was dangerous as the conversation could've went several ways, but man am I glad I did.
> 
> I contacted her through Messenger, telling her vaguely that I was trying to piece together some incidents involving her H, and told her my TF sent me. Her response was chilling: "did he ruin your marriage too? Yes, please call me at (number) at your leisure."
> 
> So call I did. I was not prepared to hear what I heard, I can tell you that much. Nothing incriminating on my W- she knew nothing of the affair. She said she just wasn't concerned with texting or phone use, as a person in his position gets texts/calls/etc constantly.
> 
> She just unloaded on me folks. Basically used me as a therapist- even though she's been in therapy for years now. She spent more than half an hour pouring over her mistakes and how much of a sociopath he really is. Chillingly, she said a statement my W made- "he's only good at two things. Surgery, and deception. He has nothing else to offer anyone".
> 
> She was his AP some years back. She was working in administration at the hospital he's at now, and they would come in contact in staff meetings. She was a runner and triathlete like him, and that was his angle. She said he 'showed up' at her gym a few times, and they soon began going for runs after work. She said they first got together physically at a run out of town. Again CHILLING to hear this, as I suspect he had similar plans for my W. Unfortunately for this lady, she and her hubby weren't happy and he rarely went to her events. She said the OM enticed her to his hotel, and that was that. She said they would often find events out of town, and just spend the night together. His wife at the time caught them when she showed up at a run to surprise him. She saw them together and followed them back to the hotel. It was ugly is all that she would say.
> 
> He actually broke up his first wife's engagement. So, if you're keeping score, this is now 4 known ruined marriages, and at least one (mine) in recovery. She says he had side pieces all over, but yes- almost all had the same persona- married, family lady, mothers, clean, etc. She knows it was the conquest and the thrill of it all. He almost always made a point to meet husbands (did in my case) and played the 'all American guy' card well.
> 
> On the affair that ended her marriage to him...she was growing suspicious about his on-call hours. She started looking at his schedule vs drive times and so forth, and he had several unaccounted for hours most of his call weeks. He contacted his office manager and asked if she'd seen anything. She told her point blank- "he's talking to a lady in medical records a lot. I caught her leaving his office recently when I got back from lunch. Seemed odd". His ex wife said she threatened to kick the hell out of his manager for not telling him. She asked her to keep watch and call her if she saw anything else. So she did...while in the act. OM didn't know his manager saw them...he got careless for once (she must've been REALLY good). Ex wife was called, showed up, and got them on video. They had to pull her off of both of them, is her story.
> 
> The time frame of spring 2013 that she gave me coincides with him ramping up pressure on my W, her declining, and him giving her the "then we're done" text. So yeah @MattMatt it seems as though he had another either already in the sack or in the works.
> 
> As I told his ex wife my story, she just lost it- sobbing like crazy. She said it sounds just like her story with the exception of my W having stronger will or whatever. This lady has an unbelievable amount of guilt and shame still coursing through her. She's turned her life around though- very active in her church and started her own gym and training company.
> 
> I told her I'd love to bring him to his knees, but that my main focus was restoring my marriage. She says she'll help if she can- she has plenty of evidence, and knows of a couple of other women after her that fell prey to him. The problem is the head administrator is his absolute best friend and advocate...and...sickening...had an affair BEFORE the OM with the lady he's with now! That's right, the administrator had a fling with her sometime in 2012, just before POSOM got to her. She said that has happened since as well.
> 
> This guy deserves whatever he gets, for certain. I'll do some checking, but this may be the sort of thing a licensing board needs to hear.
> 
> I'm going to tread lightly though. I'm not planning on exposing my W through this. Their affair has been over for 6 years and our children don't need to know these things. She's always been an outstanding mother- no need to tarnish that just to try to speed up karma.
> 
> He was forced to stop working at the hospital my W was at though, so it at least narrowed down his playpen.
> 
> Unbelievable this guy!


Well not feeling sorry for her. You play with fire you get burned, it's good she turned her life around. You should have her you and your wife meet up for coffee. I'm sure that would be fun for your wife, but it would make the point. 

As far as this guy goes, it used to be that husbands like this would just shoot and kill men like this, and no one would bat an eye. I wish were were more civilized like we used to be.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> Well not feeling sorry for her. You play with fire you get burned, it's good she turned her life around. You should have her you and your wife meet up for coffee. I'm sure that would be fun for your wife, but it would make the point.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as this guy goes, it used to be that husbands like this would just shoot and kill men like this, and no one would bat an eye. I wish were were more civilized like we used to be.


I also don't feel sorry for her. She helped destroy two marriages. Listening to her talk, it sounds like she did plenty of pursuing herself. It sounds like her marriage was in far worse shape than mine ever was, and it didn't take much 'courting' to reel her in- she just needed the right affair partner to come along. 

I mean, what, did she think she was just going up to his hotel room for a quick shower after their run? Of course not.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> It sounds like her marriage was in far worse shape than mine ever was, and it didn't take much 'courting' to reel her in- she just needed the right affair partner to come along.


Man you really need to stop thinking about affairs this way. Marriages are not worthy of affairs or not worthy depending on how "good" they are. And all marriages have good and bad times. Show me a person who says their marriage is always "good" or "everything they ever wanted or needed" and I will show you a liar. 

There are plenty of people with deep moral character who don't cheat when their spouses are monsters. They give it a shot and they leave. (I would dispute that you can have deep moral character and stay married to a monster for a long period of time.) 

As long as you continue to think (Even subconsciously!).

_Bad Marriage = Affair _

You are going to think
_
Bad Marriage = I am responsible in some way for this._

Which leads to 

_Affair = I am responsible in some way for this._

Now I know you are going to tell me that YOU KNOW this is not your fault! But your words say something different, over and over. I challenge you to really search your heart. I think you really think affairs happen because the marriage isn't good enough to prevent them. 

Listen to me dude. Affairs happen because the people having affairs lack character and they want them to. Many times they happen to great spouses and many times they don't happen to awful ones. Frankly it usually the crap ones who have the affairs because it's that crappiness that lets them. The dynamic is set up for the great spouses to get cheated on much more then the crappy one because by their very nature of being great they don't cheat. I no longer believe the "My spouse was the best ever but then one day went off the rails stories." Usually the spouse was just clueless to what a snake they were married to. With a little digging you find it's a life long pattern. Good people falter but that usually takes a lot of time and happens slowly. 

This happened because your wife wanted the complements and she let her guard down, not because you were depressed. Understand a different women might have saw you depressed and instead gave YOU the complements. This whole thing, WHOLE THING, is on your wife. Not you. Sickness and health remember? You were sick. She wanted to hear how hot she was because you were not telling her because you were sick.

I am going to keep saying this to you over and over in the starkest way possible because you ARE going to get it, and then you are going to be disillusioned and mad, which is the next stage of this. I just want you to get this sooner rather then later so you don't waste too much time. 

Stop taking ownership for your wife's bad decisions. Yes you are doing that!


----------



## Music_Man

@sokillme

I actually get it more than you think I do. Much of the time when I mention that, and I especially meant it during my last post, it's meant from the WS point of view- that THEY often use various things - poor marriage chief among them- to justify an affair. 

I said it earlier- a good marriage does not mean an affair proof marriage. 

We could get off on a tangent on this like the "Taco Stand" thread, but I get you- more than you think.

And I don't mind you reminding me- lest any feelings that I somehow caused this creep back in.

Oh- and I knew after I posted the remark about the ex wife that you would respond 

It's had me look and learn things about my wife in a drastically different light, to be certain.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> I especially meant it during my last post, it's meant from the WS point of view


I'm not sure why that matters when their point of view is so skewed.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> I'm not sure why that matters when their point of view is so skewed.


That's what I meant it as- a distorted point of view. She even mentioned that to me on the phone- that she knew it was wrong, but she wanted it...and used her absentee hubby as her personal scapegoat. Sickening, but it is what it is. 

Reminds me a bit of a person who has a drunken one night stand but blames the alcohol only.


----------



## turnera

Music Man, don't take the bait. sokillme has one view of anyone who ever cheats, and one view only, and if you keep engaging with him he'll keep pushing until you admit that your wife is a hopeless POS, to make him feel better. Just put him on ignore.


----------



## ConanHub

Seems the OM needs to get his hands caught in a machine.

Messed up hands=no more surgery and then he only has deception.

Maybe God will allow it?>


----------



## Music_Man

ConanHub said:


> Seems the OM needs to get his hands caught in a machine.
> 
> 
> 
> Messed up hands=no more surgery and then he only has deception.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe God will allow it?>


If I had caught them 'back then', they may well have been smashed with a baseball bat. I was coaching my son's baseball team at the time- always had a bat or two in the truck


----------



## Music_Man

turnera said:


> Music Man, don't take the bait. sokillme has one view of anyone who ever cheats, and one view only, and if you keep engaging with him he'll keep pushing until you admit that your wife is a hopeless POS, to make him feel better. Just put him on ignore.


I surmised as much. Went and checked a few of the other threads he's active in. Saw his posts yesterday going back and forth with folks in the 'Taco Stand' thread. I see where he stands now...


----------



## ConanHub

Music_Man said:


> If I had caught them 'back then', they may well have been smashed with a baseball bat. I was coaching my son's baseball team at the time- always had a bat or two in the truck


Injuries happen in sports all the time.:wink2:


----------



## mickybill

Music_Man said:


> If I had caught them 'back then', they may well have been smashed with a baseball bat. I was coaching my son's baseball team at the time- always had a bat or two in the truck


A cop friend of mine says always have a ball and a glove in the truck too.


----------



## sokillme

turnera said:


> Music Man, don't take the bait. sokillme has one view of anyone who ever cheats, and one view only, and if you keep engaging with him he'll keep pushing until you admit that your wife is a hopeless POS, to make him feel better. Just put him on ignore.


Bull**** I told him if I were him I would stay to work this out with her and I would. Did you even read my posts on this thread? I think I have always made my feelings pretty clear. In most cases I would not waste my time. In rare cases, like this one I would. I don't think his wife is a hopeless POS as you put it. But I also don't think she did this because he was working hard and depressed or a victim of some ingenious predator. I think she was a very competent adult women who choose to do something for the benefit of her ego at that time, at his expense. Which makes her human. 

Besides who cares what I think. If OP takes ownership and responsibility for his wife's affair his marriage will fail eventually. That was the point of the post you say is bait. 

Hopefully when he says he isn't he is right.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

turnera said:


> Music Man, don't take the bait. sokillme has one view of anyone who ever cheats, and one view only, and if you keep engaging with him he'll keep pushing until you admit that your wife is a hopeless POS, to make him feel better. Just put him on ignore.


Amen from the choir!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

sokillme said:


> Well not feeling sorry for her. You play with fire you get burned, it's good she turned her life around. You should have her you and your wife meet up for coffee. I'm sure that would be fun for your wife, but it would make the point.
> 
> As far as this guy goes, it used to be that husbands like this would just shoot and kill men like this, and no one would bat an eye. I wish were were more civilized like we used to be.


In Letcher County,Ky where my dads family hails from POSOM fifty or so years ago would likely “disappear”. In the hills they did not put up with this stuff.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

sokillme said:


> Bull**** I told him if I were him I would stay to work this out with her and I would. Did you even read my posts on this thread? I think I have always made my feelings pretty clear. In most cases I would not waste my time. In rare cases, like this one I would. I don't think his wife is a hopeless POS as you put it. But I also don't think she did this because he was working hard and depressed or a victim of some ingenious predator. I think she was a very competent adult women who choose to do something for the benefit of her ego at that time, at his expense. Which makes her human.
> 
> Besides who cares what I think. If OP takes ownership and responsibility for his wife's affair his marriage will fail eventually. That was the point of the post you say is bait.
> 
> Hopefully when he says he isn't he is right.


OP has done a picture perfect handling of the situation. This **** is not easy to navigate through and MusicMan hit a grand slam.

So Kill Me you baffle my mind. I sense you are extremely bitter and skeptical. Hell I get it, but sooner or later you need to release the negativity from you body or it will eat you alive.

I know you were burned pretty bad from my earlier thread.
Positivity. I cannot stress how important a good attitude is. The better your attitude the better your health. Fine yourself a good counselor. Life is to short. 

I would encourage you to read a couple of books from Eckhart Tolle. Good positive stuff 






This link is not in jest, but to lift your spirit


----------



## ABHale

Honestly music man your with actions were not so bad as most. No doubt it hurt like hell but she never put herself in position to go any further then text sexual messages. 

She would not allow it to go any further then that. She kept him at a distance to insure it never went further. 

Not saying what she did wasn’t wrong or anything like that. 

Many here have had their wife in a real ea where she believes she is in love with that OM to full on affair where she keeps her husband at arms length and she keeps special clothing just for the OM. Cheating on the husband for years. 

You should be ok. I can’t see anything that can keep the two of you working it out.


----------



## Music_Man

It's been a good weekend. Thanks again for the support and sound advice to all who have contributed here.

Healing will continue to take time- but some really big hurdles were crossed this week. We are both looking forward. We can and will still continue to discuss things that happened, but it's starting to take on a different feeling now...more of a 'lessons learned' feel than a 'what the hell were you thinking' feel. 

Happy Father's Day to all the fathers out there. Hug/call/connect with those kiddos today. For those fortunate enough to still have your father, don't forget about him today either.


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## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> ]but it's starting to take on a different feeling now...more of a 'lessons learned' feel than a 'what the hell were you thinking' feel.


Which is kind of what I was trying to tell you. 

Look you guys can think what you want but lets see how awful you think my advice is a year from now.

One more time, I would R if I were you.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

Music man,I realy hate cheaters,but your wife is not bad person. She made a wrong choice to get too close to another man,but she stopped when mattered,and she remained fatefull to this day. So,give her a little slack.


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## Music_Man

Quick update- we have our first MC session scheduled for this Thursday. He's highly recommended so I'm hoping we get our money's worth out of this. We both are optimistic even though we know that some tough questions are forthcoming. Hoping this is another positive step for us.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Good that you have a male MC.


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## alte Dame

Reconciliation is usually a long process, so don't expect your pain to recede quickly. With some good counseling, you'll be mending well. You've done this as well as anyone could, in my opinion. 

Best of luck with the MC.


----------



## sideways

Been awhile since I've been on TAM (joined around the same time as No longer Lonely).

Been following your story Music. Wondering if No Longer would share with you how much his faith helped him get through his trial (as I recall it played a big part)?

From my perspective Music I think you and your wife will get through this as long as she continues to put in the work and to do whatever you need from her to heal. Your wife got off track a bit (no doubt), but by the grace of god she woke up and realized what was happening and shut it down with this clown.

Happy for you Music (just as I am happy that No Longer and his wife were able to work through their trial.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

My faith was critical to our reconciliation. Much prayer on my part as well as FWW's. My primary mission was to forgive and move on and man it was hard to get to that point until I read about forgiveness in the Holy Bible. It struck home with me that if I need to be forgiven, I had to forgive.
What made our reconciliation successful is that she showed true remorse and did all that was required to help me heal. Several times over the term of R, I awoke in the middle of the night to find her sobbing her eyes out. She was crying because she first could not believe she was so stupid, and secondly because of the extreme hurt she caused me. She had to work on forgiving herself. I remember holding her in the middle of the night telling her I forgave her and she needed to do likewise and forgive herself. 

I turned 57 today, and when I awoke she had placed a birthday card beside our bed for me. She wrote the following on the card "I have found a man I can admire and respect. You are everything a man should be. You're honest to a fault, strong, and gentle with a open heart and you always try to give me your best. In you I have found my perfect partner. I will always be happy that I am your wife. Thank you for giving me a second chance to prove my love". Yours forever, "T".

Music Man, the most important thing for each of you to realize as you are this is a marathon, not a sprint. Be patient with each other as there will be times in MC you will get upset at times as will she. Use your MC as your "boxing glove" with her. Let him communicate how you felt and currently feel. Mine did that for me. He held FWW feet to the fire. He really used the phrase "how would you feel" with her. I got it the second session, women are all about feelings. Sadly, took me 53 years to figure that out. 

You may also want to ask your MC about each of you writing a letter to each other that he reads in your session. Ours instructed us to do the following. Me, to write how she hurt me and made me feel and what I experienced and was experiencing. She was to write me a letter of apology and what she was going to do to make it up to me. Man, that worked like a charm. When he was about three quarters through my 20 page letter, she fell on the floor and curled up in a fetal position and cried her eyes out for 15 minutes. When I raised myself from my seat to hold her, he put his finger to his lips indicating for me to stand down. Then and there I experienced remorse. It is unexplainable unless you were there at that moment. Moving, is all I can say to describe it. I knew at that point she felt my pain. From that point on our journey to reconcile was given a boost by that one session.

As I have told some posters when I give advice, I follow Pat Summit's quote..."Left foot , right foot, breath, repeat."Pat is a legend here in Kentuckessee.

You will be successful. I have no doubt.


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## Music_Man

@No Longer Lonely Husband 

Thanks for sharing. My W is going through similar emotions right now. I'll post about our Saturday morning breakfast later...she made plans for us and she just broke down through it all. It was equally painful and beautiful...hard to explain to some but I'm sure you understand. 

You put into words what I posted about forgiveness. My decision to forgive has been amazing...it's not easy for me and it has changed my perspective. Yes, how can I ever expect to receive forgiveness if I can't extend it to others- no matter how deep the pain?


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## sideways

Thanks for sharing that No Longer. That's a powerful Testimony!

I like what T.D. Jakes says about forgiveness:

"How can I (God speaking to us) be so good and offer you such a good deal (forgiveness) and you won't take it"?

"It's because you can't believe that I can forgive you because you don't forgive other people".

"But my ways are above your ways and my thoughts are above your thoughts and if you come to me I will forgive you".

"I loved you when you were wrong, I loved you when you were cursing me, I loved you when you denied me".

"The guilty can be forgiven".

"God forgives".

"The guilty....he has the evidence......he saw you......he knows you did it.....and he still says i forgive you".

"If you, with your confused, disfunctional, perplexed, angry, bitter, lonely, frustrated, depressed self, will come to me, with all the things that you did that you can't go back and undo, and all the mess that you're engaged in now that only I can get you out of, he said I'll take you back".

"I'll take you back like the Prodigal son's father took back his son who spent all of the family inheritance, lost everything, and came home broke smelling like pigs, with slop between his toes and pig dung on his shoes, I'll run out and kiss you".

Always thought that this was pretty powerful as well and something to meditate on.


----------



## Music_Man

So, the Saturday breakfast I mentioned earlier. This past Saturday morning, my W woke me early. She asked if we could go to breakfast together at one of our favorite spots downtown. This is actually something we started doing late last year and had done several times this year- a breakfast date instead of a date night. This particular spot is in our downtown area, and just a two block walk from the harbor. We've found that it's a nice getaway from the hustle and bustle of a traditional date night- there are usually only a few folks out for a morning run, plus a few fisherman getting boats ready for the day. It's been a good time to connect and just stroll around, or even pray together down by the water if we wish- completely uninterrupted. Ironically, this is the same coffee house we met at when we went for the poly, and it's right around the corner from their offices. W never mentioned it as a potential problem...and honestly, it would be more of a trigger for her than me, so if she's good so am I.

She was almost eerily quiet on the drive downtown- I could tell she was in deep thought, but she also seemed relaxed- at peace. I had actually made up my mind that I wasn't going to talk about the affair or even recovery; I just wanted to go to breakfast and enjoy good company, and talk later. She had other ideas. After a nice breakfast with some small talk about our work weeks, we headed down towards the harbor. She led me to the end of the longest pier...and began just pouring out to me. Some of this we'd certainly touched on- at length even, but she put it all together, all of her thoughts and despair- just put it all out there. She reiterated how broken she was over my hurt, and how every time she sees the pain in my eyes she feels both helpless and disgusted with herself. She went on and on- walking through almost the entire affair timeline- talking through the texts and the regrets she has and how sick she is that she shared those words and thoughts with someone else that should've been directed to me and me only...and then, something unexpected...

She started talking about our marriage vows and how she had dishonored them. She walked through our vows, talking over each one in detail, pausing to cry her eyes out in between. She started talking about my wedding band- how cheap and old and just how bad it looked. You see, when we married, we were young and broke. I sank a good chunk of what I had into her engagement ring- leaving us with just enough to buy a cheapo department store special for me. I had actually talked about replacing it a couple of times within the past year. Well, she pulled a small cloth bag out of her pocket, and pulls out this shiny golden ring. Nothing too elaborate, but a classy upgrade and just what I had in mind. She pulled off the old ring, and with a broken crying voice, stated her vows again...and asked me if I would simply be hers for life, that she knew we had much work to do and that our new journey is just beginning, but she wanted me to know she'll spend forever trying to live up to the second chance and the forgiveness that has been extended.

It was quite a moment, to put it mildly, and it caught me completely by surprise. Yes, she's broken- and broken badly. And you know what? That's a good thing- a positive thing, in terms of both our individual healing and the R. I told the story to my therapist during my IC session today (with more details than here...sorry, some things are for Music Man only), and he was very excited and said that it's obvious that she's hearing the right things in her IC sessions and she's actively trying to do her part and do the heavy lifting and that she has taken 100% ownership. 

He did say that while we are ahead of schedule a bit, be prepared to take a couple of steps back for at least the first month of MC. Still, he said he can't envision a scenario right now where our R would fail, so long as we continue down the path that we're on and continue to face the pain and difficult issues head-on.

She followed that up with a long text Monday morning, reiterating some of the things we touched on over the weekend. And no, she isn't looking for sympathy or anything else from me. She's just doing her part, and so far, to this point, she's doing all that I could ask.

Keep us in mind as we head to MC Thursday. Hoping our MC is as good as our IC sessions have been.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

You wife is like mine. I can tell from your post she gets it. You guys will be fine.


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## Noble1

Thanks for sharing. Its so great to be able to read some good stories on here once in awhile.


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## Music_Man

Noble1 said:


> Thanks for sharing. Its so great to be able to read some good stories on here once in awhile.


My hope in posting is that it will do two things (assuming of course, that we continue on the path that we're on)

1- Bring awareness to those in similar situations- be vigilant and listen to your gut!

2- Bring hope, and show that some people do indeed 'wake up' and actually stop things before it's too late. 

If people are more aware- if I had been more aware- they can stop things before they escalate. Burying one's head in the sand or thinking "not my sweet little lady" or "not my sweet hubby" will get you burned.


----------



## Music_Man

MC session one is in the books. In a word it was exhausting. Pouring over everything all over again, particularly after an emotional weekend, was a bit much...but was to be expected. 

No new revelations- just a hard look into our marriage and into where we're at and where we are hopefully headed. Our MC is outstanding- better than I had hoped. Yes, having a male therapist was the way to go- thanks to those who recommended this.

He separated us and had a bit of one-on-one time as well. He told me at the end of my one-on-one time that he felt 100% certain we'd recover to a better place than we've experienced- provided we both stay the course through the critical first year. He said he has no doubt that my W is sincere and fully understands the pain she has caused. He also mentioned that it was evident that our IC's are both high quality, and that we've listened and learned. 

He said the main thing right now is to be patient and to be mindful of the dangerous thinking you are fully healed this early in the process. He told us that while tremendous progress has been made and we're clear of some significant hurdles, there will be bad days- some really bad days at that. The key is to remember that it's a marathon and not a sprint, and to forget timetables- no one, not even our counselors, can tell us when we 'should' be healed. 

I feel confident that we're doing everything that we can do, and I feel very optimistic about things. 

Again, I can't thank the board enough for the sound advice and for sharing some of your own stories. I'll keep you posted as things progress. We'll be on vacation next week (full family- oldest is home from college), so hoping for a chance to unwind and focus on 'normalcy' for a change.


----------



## VFW

I turned 57 today[/QUOTE said:


> Happy Birthday Marine


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

VFW said:


> Happy Birthday Marine


Semper Fi VFW. Thank you.:smile2:


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> MC session one is in the books. In a word it was exhausting. Pouring over everything all over again, particularly after an emotional weekend, was a bit much...but was to be expected.
> 
> No new revelations- just a hard look into our marriage and into where we're at and where we are hopefully headed. Our MC is outstanding- better than I had hoped. Yes, having a male therapist was the way to go- thanks to those who recommended this.
> 
> He separated us and had a bit of one-on-one time as well. He told me at the end of my one-on-one time that he felt 100% certain we'd recover to a better place than we've experienced- provided we both stay the course through the critical first year. He said he has no doubt that my W is sincere and fully understands the pain she has caused. He also mentioned that it was evident that our IC's are both high quality, and that we've listened and learned.
> 
> He said the main thing right now is to be patient and to be mindful of the dangerous thinking you are fully healed this early in the process. He told us that while tremendous progress has been made and we're clear of some significant hurdles, there will be bad days- some really bad days at that. The key is to remember that it's a marathon and not a sprint, and to forget timetables- no one, not even our counselors, can tell us when we 'should' be healed.
> 
> I feel confident that we're doing everything that we can do, and I feel very optimistic about things.
> 
> Again, I can't thank the board enough for the sound advice and for sharing some of your own stories. I'll keep you posted as things progress. We'll be on vacation next week (full family- oldest is home from college), so hoping for a chance to unwind and focus on 'normalcy' for a change.


Glad he had each of you one on one. He was “getting a read” on each of you prior to joint session. Smart.My MC told me after our grueling session my wife got it. Yes, throw the timetables out the window. Go with the flow. Be there for each other. Be patient with your wife as MC advises. Avoid tossing verbal zingers at her. I had a problem with this for several months when I triggered. Counter productive it was. I was told “you can be bitter or you can be better, the choice is yours”. I decided to get better.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> double post


----------



## Music_Man

Quick update- enjoying the first couple of days with the fam at the coast. Just poolside and beach relaxing for a few days with no agenda whatsoever. 

We agreed to skip both IC and MC sessions this week, and all counselors agree that focusing on the family will be good for us. 

It's been nice- met up with a few friends that have kids that are the same age as ours. Enjoying good food, drink, and laughter...the latter being something both of us sorely need right now.

Looking forward to week of sand and sun, and we're both looking forward to continued healing.


----------



## Music_Man

Okay...deep breath...an interesting development taking place here, and unexpected. 

POSOM'S ex-wife messaged me a little after dinner last night, asking if she could call me. Guys, I'm a little hesitant to even talk to her- she's a (former) wayward and all, and I don't need any new 'friends'. Plus, even after our first convo, I'm unsure just how much I can trust her. Anyway, I told her to call in about an hour, so she did.

Btw, my W knows I spoke with her earlier and I told her of this last night as well. If we're going to be transparent, well, we're going to be transparent. 

Bottom line- ex-wife feels guilty regarding my marriage situation and the others that have been outright destroyed, and who knows how many others that aren't known about or could be in jeopardy right now. She wants to bring awareness of his activities to the right people- credentialing and certification levels. She said she would share her video if necessary and was wondering if I would make a statement- anonymously- regarding my situation. She's seeking out others as well.

I told her I'd like to help, but it will have to wait until I return from vacation. I also told her I'm not looking to drag my family through something to try to 'speed up karma', but I would love to see him reap the seeds of his destruction. 

Anyway- give me your takes on this...I want to hit this the absolute right way if I'm going to do it.

My gut tells my the ex-wife is doing the right thing, I'm just not sure that I 100% trust her just yet.


----------



## ConanHub

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Glad he had each of you one on one. He was “getting a read” on each of you prior to joint session. Smart.My MC told me after our grueling session my wife got it. Yes, throw the timetables out the window. Go with the flow. Be there for each other. Be patient with your wife as MC advises. Avoid tossing verbal zingers at her. I had a problem with this for several months when I triggered. Counter productive it was. I was told “you can be bitter or you can be better, the choice is yours”. I decided to get better.


The verbal zingers do have to get reigned in and put back in their cage but she did earn the ones that were loosed on her.

I fully understand the need to be productively working and expressing your pain and triggers with more productive verbage , however when you're wounded and in the process of treating the injury, your reaction to the pain and especially to the person who wounded you isn't always positive and that is absolutely fine.

If my wife shot me in the leg, I might just be throwing some expletives her way even if she was trying to pack the wound for me and I might occasionally still throw one or two her way during physical therapy and when I'm limping on it several months later. Eventually I would have to get more and more productive, healthy and positive in my attitude toward her for our marriage to be healthy along with her sincere remorse and effort to do most of the repairing of our relationship.

It is important to understand that communication needs to improve and pain and anger be expressed in a productive manner. It is also important to understand that verbal slaps and barbs are also normal when you stab someone in the back and they are trying to cope with the injury on top of the betrayal inflicted on them.


----------



## TDSC60

Music_Man said:


> Okay...deep breath...an interesting development taking place here, and unexpected.
> 
> POSOM'S ex-wife messaged me a little after dinner last night, asking if she could call me. Guys, I'm a little hesitant to even talk to her- she's a (former) wayward and all, and I don't need any new 'friends'. Plus, even after our first convo, I'm unsure just how much I can trust her. Anyway, I told her to call in about an hour, so she did.
> 
> Btw, my W knows I spoke with her earlier and I told her of this last night as well. If we're going to be transparent, well, we're going to be transparent.
> 
> Bottom line- ex-wife feels guilty regarding my marriage situation and the others that have been outright destroyed, and who knows how many others that aren't known about or could be in jeopardy right now. She wants to bring awareness of his activities to the right people- credentialing and certification levels. She said she would share her video if necessary and was wondering if I would make a statement- anonymously- regarding my situation. She's seeking out others as well.
> 
> I told her I'd like to help, but it will have to wait until I return from vacation. I also told her I'm not looking to drag my family through something to try to 'speed up karma', but I would love to see him reap the seeds of his destruction.
> 
> Anyway- give me your takes on this...I want to hit this the absolute right way if I'm going to do it.
> 
> My gut tells my the ex-wife is doing the right thing, I'm just not sure that I 100% trust her just yet.


I can absolutely understand your desire to see POSOM pay for his destruction behavior.

Talk it over with your wife. What are her feelings on you helping his XW? 

You do know that any governing body will not accept your word on what happened (second hand knowledge). You were not there. He did not attempt to kiss you nor invite you to meet.

All statements and complaints are going to have to come from your wife for them to have any impact.


----------



## TJW

Music_Man said:


> I'm not looking to drag my family through something to try to 'speed up karma', but I would love to see him reap the seeds of his destruction.


There's a biblical promise ..... trust God's Holy word..... your wholeness, your wife, your family, can be placed squarely into God's hands. Instead of trusting the former-wayward wife who began her marriage in adultery, put your trust in God, who never fails.....

In this promise, you can clearly see that there is no need to place further burden upon your family, your marriage......God will "repay" in such a way as to protect all of you.

Romans 12:19 (KJV):

_Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, *Vengeance is mine; I will repay*, saith the Lord._

@TDSC60 is correct, too.

It is God who has brought you and your wife to this place. Stay on His course.


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## ConanHub

See if your wife is up to helping to stop this guy.

He is partially using his position as a device for seduction and that is against ethics for sure.

He does have trouble coming his way on many fronts but stopping the abuse of his position to harm marriages or otherwise seduce women seems important.

Revenge would be seducing his wife.

What you are considering is a form of justice and stopping at least a crime against work ethics and very possibly a real crime called sexual harassment at the workplace.


----------



## Music_Man

TDSC60 said:


> I can absolutely understand your desire to see POSOM pay for his destruction behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> Talk it over with your wife. What are her feelings on you helping his XW?
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that any governing body will not accept your word on what happened (second hand knowledge). You were not there. He did not attempt to kiss you nor invite you to meet.
> 
> 
> 
> All statements and complaints are going to have to come from your wife for them to have any impact.


This is what concerns me. This could potentially even effect my W's career, which is not something I want to risk. Our kids don't deserve to be dragged in peripherally either. 

I'll need to tread lightly. W and I just spoke about it over breakfast. She hates him- with passion and fervor- but has mixed feelings over going down this road. 

My gut tells me that we are on the right path in all other aspects of our life- including healing- and this could derail that in a mighty way. My gut says wish her well, pray for them, and continue to take the high road.


----------



## Music_Man

TJW said:


> There's a biblical promise ..... trust God's Holy word..... your wholeness, your wife, your family, can be placed squarely into God's hands. Instead of trusting the former-wayward wife who began her marriage in adultery, put your trust in God, who never fails.....
> 
> In this promise, you can clearly see that there is no need to place further burden upon your family, your marriage......God will "repay" in such a way as to protect all of you.
> 
> Romans 12:19 (KJV):
> 
> _Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, *Vengeance is mine; I will repay*, saith the Lord._
> 
> @TDSC60 is correct, too.
> 
> It is God who has brought you and your wife to this place. Stay on His course.


Thanks...needed to read this and just needed reassurance. My gut says pray for her, wish her well, and move on in healing.


----------



## BluesPower

Music_Man said:


> This is what concerns me. This could potentially even effect my W's career, which is not something I want to risk. Our kids don't deserve to be dragged in peripherally either.
> 
> I'll need to tread lightly. W and I just spoke about it over breakfast. She hates him- with passion and fervor- but has mixed feelings over going down this road.
> 
> My gut tells me that we are on the right path in all other aspects of our life- including healing- and this could derail that in a mighty way. My gut says wish her well, pray for them, and continue to take the high road.


Sorry buddy, if your wife is for real, then she does not get to have mixed feelings. 

I am not saying that she needs to post a youtube video or tell everyone what she did... 

But, anything that you and her can do to get this POS off the streets so to speak, needs to be done.

You see that, right???


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> Okay...deep breath...an interesting development taking place here, and unexpected.
> 
> POSOM'S ex-wife messaged me a little after dinner last night, asking if she could call me. Guys, I'm a little hesitant to even talk to her- she's a (former) wayward and all, and I don't need any new 'friends'. Plus, even after our first convo, I'm unsure just how much I can trust her. Anyway, I told her to call in about an hour, so she did.
> 
> Btw, my W knows I spoke with her earlier and I told her of this last night as well. If we're going to be transparent, well, we're going to be transparent.
> 
> Bottom line- ex-wife feels guilty regarding my marriage situation and the others that have been outright destroyed, and who knows how many others that aren't known about or could be in jeopardy right now. She wants to bring awareness of his activities to the right people- credentialing and certification levels. She said she would share her video if necessary and was wondering if I would make a statement- anonymously- regarding my situation. She's seeking out others as well.
> 
> I told her I'd like to help, but it will have to wait until I return from vacation. I also told her I'm not looking to drag my family through something to try to 'speed up karma', but I would love to see him reap the seeds of his destruction.
> 
> Anyway- give me your takes on this...I want to hit this the absolute right way if I'm going to do it.
> 
> My gut tells my the ex-wife is doing the right thing, I'm just not sure that I 100% trust her just yet.


If it was me I would suggest my wife talk to her. It's a good way to create some restitution and accountability, it may even help this women heal as well, it also keeps you away from the situation at least directly.


----------



## sokillme

ConanHub said:


> The verbal zingers do have to get reigned in and put back in their cage but she did earn the ones that were loosed on her.
> 
> I fully understand the need to be productively working and expressing your pain and triggers with more productive verbage , however when you're wounded and in the process of treating the injury, your reaction to the pain and especially to the person who wounded you isn't always positive and that is absolutely fine.
> 
> If my wife shot me in the leg, I might just be throwing some expletives her way even if she was trying to pack the wound for me and I might occasionally still throw one or two her way during physical therapy and when I'm limping on it several months later. Eventually I would have to get more and more productive, healthy and positive in my attitude toward her for our marriage to be healthy along with her sincere remorse and effort to do most of the repairing of our relationship.
> 
> It is important to understand that communication needs to improve and pain and anger be expressed in a productive manner. It is also important to understand that verbal slaps and barbs are also normal when you stab someone in the back and they are trying to cope with the injury on top of the betrayal inflicted on them.


I agree at some point it's better to talk about how you feel, not how she made you feel. I would think that is hard to do a few months out though.


----------



## Affaircare

Music_Man said:


> Thanks...needed to read this and just needed reassurance. My gut says pray for her, wish her well, and move on in healing.


I suggest going with your gut. Your gut is saying this for a reason. 

Here's the thing--you can put your energy into a project like this or put your energy into focusing on your wife, your marriage and your family. I say "trust the process" and let karma come when it comes. You keep your focus where it belongs. 

Now your wife may be a different story. She actually has firsthand knowledge and was the involved party. It may also be good for her to not cover up what was done, but to shine a light on it. Yes, it may feel embarrassing, but a little embarrassing in order to stand for what's right may be beneficial to her. 

My humble opinion.


----------



## wilson

Music_Man said:


> My gut tells me that we are on the right path in all other aspects of our life- including healing- and this could derail that in a mighty way. My gut says wish her well, pray for them, and continue to take the high road.


Yes, I think you should step away from this as far as you can. Human emotions are powerful and unpredictable. It's unlikely you will be able to keep your emotions in control or avoid getting triggered if you are involved with this project or those people. If you were filled with rage and needed a productive outlet, then maybe get involved. But it looks like you're on the path for happiness and contentment. I can't see how you stay on that path if you are also trying to bring the OM down.


----------



## TJW

Affaircare said:


> I suggest going with your gut. Your gut is saying this for a reason.


Yes, and I think you already know what the reason is. That's what our walk with the Lord is..... gut training..... over time, as we submit to Him, study His word, evaluate His recorded actions, our "gut" starts to follow.....

May God add His blessing to you and your family.....even today....,.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music Man, I was all for accelerating karma on POSOM. However, I have let go most all of my anger towards him. As long as I was angry he controlled me. Took me a while to realize that. I let go and he has experienced karma. Rest assured he will get his at some point. You reap what you sow. My initial thoughts are to let go of this and focus on improving your relationship with your wife. He is not worth any further efforts on your part. Let go and Let God as you have been advised.


----------



## Music_Man

BluesPower said:


> Sorry buddy, if your wife is for real, then she does not get to have mixed feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not saying that she needs to post a youtube video or tell everyone what she did...
> 
> 
> 
> But, anything that you and her can do to get this POS off the streets so to speak, needs to be done.
> 
> 
> 
> You see that, right???


Gotta disagree here a bit. My W is human, and having mixed emotions about working with the ex-wife of her AP over something that could possibly damage her own career would be perfectly natural- and not something I can just "take" from her.

Doing "anything that we can do", in my opinion, does not mean jeopardizing where we are in reconciliation, where I'm at in my own recovery, or our kids or careers. 

To put our lives in a state of ruin- or even in flux for that matter- to try to bring this cat down, well, there's just a limit as it pertains to what I'm willing to do. 

Besides, there are no guarantees whatsoever that any of this would bring him to his knees. 

After discussing with my W at length today, we are in agreement that if the right opportunity presents itself to present information, we'll take it as it comes and handle it as we should. We will not, however, work with the ex-wife on this or get involved with her anymore. 

My W called her about an hour ago. They shared some stories, some tears, and my W feels as though they have some closure- and the ex-wife respects our decision to hold back for now. She says she will not approach us further other than to keep us in the loop if anything materializes.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Music Man, I was all for accelerating karma on POSOM. However, I have let go most all of my anger towards him. As long as I was angry he controlled me. Took me a while to realize that. I let go and he has experienced karma. Rest assured he will get his at some point. You reap what you sow. My initial thoughts are to let go of this and focus on improving your relationship with your wife. He is not worth any further efforts on your part. Let go and Let God as you have been advised.


This is where I'm at. Would love to see him in pain, but not at the expense of my family.


----------



## Affaircare

I'll share my own story on this. My exH was cheating with a lady who had 4 kids from 4 different men. For whatever reason, he thought their love was different and they would overcome all obstacles because it was true love (insert rainbow farts here). LOL During our divorce, he went around telling people I had anger issues (nope--only when you cheat on me), and all kinds of other false things. 

I kept my tongue and decided to let my actions do the talking. I didn't fight fire with fire--all that does is burn up everything. If I was asked, I did speak the truth in a civil way, but even though I was tempted, I didn't jump in and try to defend my honor. I just kept living well and doing the right thing. 

Needless to say, exH and OW broke up (shocker) and gradually the friends and neighbors came to me and said "Well, we've noticed you're pretty nice and he's the one who screams all the time. Was he the one with the anger issues?" 

Again, this is just my experience, but I trusted the process. If you sew discord you'll eventually reap discord. If you sew honesty and doing the right thing eventually reap honesty and right living!


----------



## Music_Man

Affaircare said:


> I'll share my own story on this. My exH was cheating with a lady who had 4 kids from 4 different men. For whatever reason, he thought their love was different and they would overcome all obstacles because it was true love (insert rainbow farts here). LOL During our divorce, he went around telling people I had anger issues (nope--only when you cheat on me), and all kinds of other false things.
> 
> 
> 
> I kept my tongue and decided to let my actions do the talking. I didn't fight fire with fire--all that does is burn up everything. If I was asked, I did speak the truth in a civil way, but even though I was tempted, I didn't jump in and try to defend my honor. I just kept living well and doing the right thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say, exH and OW broke up (shocker) and gradually the friends and neighbors came to me and said "Well, we've noticed you're pretty nice and he's the one who screams all the time. Was he the one with the anger issues?"
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is just my experience, but I trusted the process. If you sew discord you'll eventually reap discord. If you sew honesty and doing the right thing eventually reap honesty and right living!


Thanks for sharing @Affaircare. This is just one of the reasons I keep coming back to the thread- there are (unfortunately) many seasoned vets around with much sound advice to offer.


----------



## sideways

As tempting as it might be, remember he says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" (Romans 12:19)

He also said "cast your cares upon him" (1st Peter 5:7).

I think you and your wife are in a really good place and heading down the right path. Put your faith and trust in him and I feel quite certain that he'll take you and your wife where you're wanting to go (a place of peace and wiser about your relationship) and more importantly strengthening your faith knowing that he was the one who got you through this storm.

I know you and your wife are doing the work, but remember to give the glory to him (just as No More Lonely Husband has done).

Both of you will have wonderful testimonies to share with others who will come here desperately needing advice. I've been coming back to TAM here and there, but I have been EXTREMELY PROUD of No More Lonely Husband for sticking around to share his testimony and that he was NEVER ashamed to share his faith throughout his trial and that without it he would NOT be where he's at.


----------



## Music_Man

sideways said:


> As tempting as it might be, remember he says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" (Romans 12:19)
> 
> 
> 
> He also said "cast your cares upon him" (1st Peter 5:7).
> 
> 
> 
> I think you and your wife are in a really good place and heading down the right path. Put your faith and trust in him and I feel quite certain that he'll take you and your wife where you're wanting to go (a place of peace and wiser about your relationship) and more importantly strengthening your faith knowing that he was the one who got you through this storm.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you and your wife are doing the work, but remember to give the glory to him (just as No More Lonely Husband has done).
> 
> 
> 
> Both of you will have wonderful testimonies to share with others who will come here desperately needing advice. I've been coming back to TAM here and there, but I have been EXTREMELY PROUD of No More Lonely Husband for sticking around to share his testimony and that he was NEVER ashamed to share his faith throughout his trial and that without it he would NOT be where he's at.


Thanks for the post. My W and I have discussed this as well, and at length this afternoon. We plan to help others when the time is right. We hope we'll have a story of redemption and forgiveness that will truly help others to not only heal, but perhaps prevent others from walking down this road.


----------



## TJW

Music_Man said:


> Besides, there are no guarantees whatsoever that any of this would bring him to his knees.


You're absolutely correct. There is nothing, within your power, nor within your wife's power, which is guaranteed to cause him to repent. Even in the resurrection, some will be placed on the Lord's left. Not even God will force him.

He does, however, have a choice.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

sideways said:


> As tempting as it might be, remember he says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" (Romans 12:19)
> 
> He also said "cast your cares upon him" (1st Peter 5:7).


 Did you ever consider that the Lord put this woman up to calling MM, and that may be the vehicle for "Vengeance is mine, I will repay"?


----------



## Music_Man

Ex-wife messaged us this morning (we asked her to message us jointly going forward). This is really a circle of people where the right hand didn't even know the left hand existed. We ended up having her call us and put her on speaker so we could get into all of this a little quicker. 

The ex-wife was able to reach out to someone in administration at his current hospital who was a former close friend, and well-connected. She gave details to her that, quite frankly, should get her fired for spilling if you ask me...but that's another rabbit hole I don't plan on going down. 

It turns out that POSOM has already had more than one complaint filed against him, including one by the betrayed husband of the AP that the ex-wife caught in the act. This BH simply sent anonymous information to the HR department of both hospitals, and this is what eventually ran him off from the hospital my W used to work at. He and the AP (she was an employee of the hospital at the time) were questioned, and both declined a disciplinary hearing by electing to leave the hospital- she as an employee and he as a physician with privileges. They both still work together, at his old hospital. She did confirm that POSOM and this AP are still together- living together- but he refuses to marry her. Lessons learned from him on the alimony front I suppose.

This brings us to the #1 reason that the ex-wife is chasing this, and she said it point-blank: she has extreme guilt for not sharing the news and knowledge of this affair with the BH. She had video proof, and yet did not bother to let him know. If you recall, it was the BH's son who found them in his parents bed, and choked POSOM, and this is how the BH found out. The ex-wife says this guilt is eating her alive and she's simply trying to make it right, as best she can. 

The ex-wife said she knows from rumors and this admin friend confirmed it- POSOM is having a couple of other affairs with hospital employees right now, and she knows one of them fairly well and doesn't know the other at all. She's going to reach out to them and let them know she's contacting their (apparently) oblivious husbands unless they do it first, and she's going to try to use this as leverage to gain their help.

As for us, this is all waaayyyy too much drama for a couple trying to reconcile and for our own personal recovery. The ex-wife's admin friend also indicated that our situation- a texting affair from 6 years ago- would not really offer anything substantial and would really be too far in the past...plus, it happened at a hospital that neither of them work at and haven't for years. 

We're not taking the 'easy road' here- believe me when I tell you I want justice for this cat- but we're just in a different place now, and what my W could offer likely wouldn't help the cause other than to show a pattern. 

We asked her to update us with any significant developments, but we don't want this dragging us down or keeping either of us triggered. I want this guy's face and smug attitude out of my mind, and staying deeply involved in this is not going to help.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music man, karma has arrived. He is reaping what he sowed. Keep focusing on your marriage and get that sorry son of a ***** out of your mind.


----------



## TDSC60

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Music man, karma has arrived. He is reaping what he sowed. Keep focusing on your marriage and get that sorry son of a ***** out of your mind.


Exactly right. I know you really want him to burn for all the pain he has and is causing. But guess what? Not your job.

Focus on yourself and your wife. Let the chip fall for him. Sounds like his XW is doing a good job of dispensing karmic justice.


----------



## MattMatt

The State licensing authority might not agree that an affair from six years ago is not relevant to his fitness to practice medicine, as it proves an ongoing chain of bad decisions on his part. Decisions that could have placed patients at risk.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Music man, karma has arrived. He is reaping what he sowed...


KARMA has indeed arrived, and man is it ever snowballing fast. I don't have the time right now- crazy busy at work- but I will post a full update tonight. 

Briefly- ex-wife messaged us again just moments ago. Said she knew we wanted to only be updated with earth shattering news, well she has some. Hospital Administrators wife is involved now. One of their 'shared' AP's is singing like a canary. This is blowing up as I type this. Administrators wife has gone to hospital board and straight to state. She wants them both fired and POSOM'S license suspended. 

POSOM'S ex-wife set off a timebomb this weekend, exposing POSOM'S three (yes THREE) current affairs. 

Again, details later. Got deadlines today- will update tonight, but it seems as though IT'S HAPPENING folks.


----------



## Yeswecan

Music_Man said:


> KARMA has indeed arrived, and man is it ever snowballing fast. I don't have the time right now- crazy busy at work- but I will post a full update tonight.
> 
> Briefly- ex-wife messaged us again just moments ago. Said she knew we wanted to only be updated with earth shattering news, well she has some. Hospital Administrators wife is involved now. One of their 'shared' AP's is singing like a canary. This is blowing up as I type this. Administrators wife has gone to hospital board and straight to state. She wants them both fired and POSOM'S license suspended.
> 
> POSOM'S ex-wife set off a timebomb this weekend, exposing POSOM'S three (yes THREE) current affairs.
> 
> Again, details later. Got deadlines today- will update tonight, but it seems as though IT'S HAPPENING folks.


Yay for the home team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MattMatt

What a maroon! (Prop. Bugs Bunny.)

I am currently sat on a bus, or I'd use a popcorn gif for this ringside extravaganza!


----------



## TJW

Rubix Cubed said:


> Did you ever consider that the Lord put this woman up to calling MM, and that may be the vehicle for "Vengeance is mine, I will repay"?


Yes. People are the Lord's instruments, as they follow their convictions. I think the Lord knows He can rebuild @Music_Man 's marriage and has "spoken" to him through that internal witness of @Music_Man 's conscience. The Lord delights in saved marriages and saved relationships.

The Lord has here, again, worked in ways that only He can. He has brought His justice and His "repayment" while protecting @Music_Man and his repentant wife.



YesWeCan said:


> Yay for the home team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Amen.


----------



## Music_Man

Got a few minutes here. So, POSOM'S ex-wife (just EW going forward) knew of 2 affairs that he was having currently, based on rumors and her contacts. One lady she knew well when she worked there, one she didn't know at all. She contacted the one she knew first, telling her what she was trying to do. The lady confided that it was just a texting and flirting thing right now, but it was escalating. She said she did want to stop- just didn't know how (Really? STOP TEXTING!). A few coworkers knew, and she thinks someone told her hubby. Her hubby was already suspecting something, and with the threat of the EW exposing her, agreed to tell the hubby. She's already told her story to Administrators wife as well. More on this later. She fits POSOM'S MO- married, 2 kids, early 40's, works at hospital, etc. Same gameplan as with my W...

Second AP was not as kind. She basically told EW to piss off. She said her marriage was crap, and wanted to get caught. She did, however, 'out' a third unknown. This one is of no use long term due to attitude, but she did out the 3rd AP- and she is the one who crashed the party.

The 3rd AP has bridged the gap to the crooked administrator. She's bounced back and forth between them for a year or more...even has a nickname among coworkers for it- they call her ping-pong. Wow...just unreal. They need to shut this place down!

Anyway, she isn't married- she's separated, and is hoping for divorce. So she's a loose cannon with nothing to lose. Under threat of HR exposure by EW (EW is taking no prisoners), she agreed to tell Administrators wife via phone. This all happened between Sunday evening and Monday morning. Admin wife (AW) went crazy. Emails to BOD and state officials. Naming both her hubby and POSOM. Details given. Asking for suspensions and resignations. 

She indicated to EW that it will happen. She is well-connected and has threatened going to local papers, news outlets, and outing on social media. The administrator and his wife are late 40's, for context. He and POSOM are like brothers from what we are told. AW sounds like she is ready to burn it all down- never expected to hear things were moving this fast. I'm certain board reviews and hearings will take months, but it would be nice to hear of a suspension for both while the investigation takes place.

POSOM'S current live in girlfriend- the AP that killed his marriage- has deleted her Facebook account according to EW. So she likely knows and is in damage control. The fallout has started. 


My W and I would likely enjoy this more if we weren't connected in the way that we are. Still, I have a nice little smile on my face knowing this- be sure your sins will find you out, and this guy has been BUSTED!!!

God has a way of handling things that is so much better than our ways. And to think- it was really me pushing my W to clear up the past that started this snowball rolling. Perhaps my W finally telling the truth will be the vehicle that not only heals and reconciles our past, but also destroys an evil along the way, and saves a few future marriages. Just a thought...

More later.


----------



## Music_Man

One more thing- Mrs. Music Man is lurking here now. She's read the entire thread. Encourage her to join if you will. She's worried about perception, but I've told there's far worst 'stuff' out there than what's happened to us. 

It's another healing step to be able to read this together. I'm hoping that someday we'll have a great story of redemption and restoration to share.

We have our 2nd MC session in just a couple of minutes...


----------



## MAJDEATH

Welcome Mrs. Music Man. Hope you can give an insiders perspective on how a pick-up artist tries to work a lead at a place of employment. And how someone can stop it before it gets too far.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Did this old dog tell you he would get his? You reap what you sow. I am glad the hospital board is acting on this sorry excuse for a human being. I can tell you from experience in most cases they will bend over backward to protect a doctor.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> One more thing- Mrs. Music Man is lurking here now. She's read the entire thread. Encourage her to join if you will. She's worried about perception, but I've told there's far worst 'stuff' out there than what's happened to us.
> 
> It's another healing step to be able to read this together. I'm hoping that someday we'll have a great story of redemption and restoration to share.
> 
> We have our 2nd MC session in just a couple of minutes...


Mine read my lengthy thread that on request of my lawyer I had to have removed, (long story). I fell asleep with my iPad in my lap, and hers was dead and when she went to search for a recipe my thread came up. She was shocked by some of the comments posted about her by others. This was a blessing as I think the comments about her ( they were not flattering) made her more determined to prove to me the she was worthy of reconciliation. I encouraged her to set up an account but she declined.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> One more thing- Mrs. Music Man is lurking here now. She's read the entire thread. Encourage her to join if you will. She's worried about perception, but I've told there's far worst 'stuff' out there than what's happened to us.
> 
> It's another healing step to be able to read this together. I'm hoping that someday we'll have a great story of redemption and restoration to share.
> 
> We have our 2nd MC session in just a couple of minutes...


She would have much to offer from her experience that may be beneficial to others who are in similar predicaments.


----------



## Music_Man

Okay- so rereading my post, I think most everything was covered. The EW sent us one more message about an hour ago, to let us know that AW called her to tell her that she spoke directly and frankly with a board member this afternoon and that the general consensus was that POSOM and the Admin will be placed on Administrative Leave at some point soon.

It's complicated, of course, as POSOM has cases lined up for next week and beyond, so they will need to divert to another facility or pass them to another surgeon if he is to be placed on leave. Still, seems encouraging that the plan is to at least remove them from their positions when practical. 

The surgeon gets paid per case, so this will be a BIG blow to him and his massive ego. Too bad...

As NLLH intimated, most hospitals will bend over backwards for docs, especially a top-quality surgeon. In this instance, I'm hoping that the fact that his 'pal' has been implicated and the fact that he's already on the board's radar will help to persuade them to do the right thing. And if they determine that administration covered for him? Oh boy...

Of course, if the state comes down on him- he's screwed- no matter what the hospital says or does.

My W and I spoke with our MC today. He's a very reserved gentleman, but he seemed positively giddy as we filled him in on the breaking news. He told us we were right to sit this one out and let the current AP's do the dirty work. He said to use this as a way to bond together, but also for my W to use it to be ever more thankful that she had her eyes opened in time. A ruined marriage would've been bad, but to be ruined at the hands of this jackass? Unbearable.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Ok, quit thinking about that jackass. Focus on your marriage and your lovely wife. That’s an order sir!


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Ok, quit thinking about that jackass. Focus on your marriage and your lovely wife. That’s an order sir!


Sir Yessir! I am...we both are. We actually messaged her back right after my last post to ask her to let us know if he gets a true suspension or loses his license or something. Paid leave doesn't count- slap on the wrist. Otherwise, we're both sick of hearing about 'General Hospital' episodes, so please leave us out of the updates and the details.

Just glad to know he's at least being outed and will suffer embarrassment on at least some level.

We're moving on. Besides- we got some pretty amazing news today concerning W's career. Mrs Music Man is making waves, and had been blessed once again. AMAZING what God has done in her career since she left that cesspool, and is surrounded by good, honest, professional people.


----------



## Noble1

Thanks for sharing again, especially since you have a "good" ending.

Its great to hear about people getting through bad situations and moving onto bigger and better.


----------



## turnera

Music_Man said:


> One more thing- Mrs. Music Man is lurking here now. She's read the entire thread. Encourage her to join if you will. She's worried about perception, but I've told there's far worst 'stuff' out there than what's happened to us.


Hi Mrs. Music Man! The only thing that matters here is that people are open to learning, changing, and growing! It's clear you fit in that pattern so no worries! And just know that there are thousands of people who read her but never post who are learning from these threads. Any insight you can provide to them about how y'all's relationship evolved to where it got - and how you got out of it - is extremely beneficial. We rarely get both partners posting simultaneously and it's a uniquely helpful way to see how things work.


----------



## Music_Man

Mrs. MM hopes to register and post this week. There's a lot going on with her job right now, and we both still have IC and MC sessions weekly, so her focus is where it should be. 

On her job front- it's all good news right now. I'll leave it up to her if she wants to divulge any of that, but things are going very well. What a difference it made for her to leave that cesspool she was in...wow...

Also, we did get a short message from POSOM'S ex-wife, copied and pasted in full here, other than names:

Hi guys- I know you said you only wanted to know if suspensions or similar were handed down. They have been. (POSOM) and Mr. ____ (admin) are both out pending a state investigation. (Admin) has resigned, and is moving to another state. (POSOM) can see patients in office but cannot operate or do procedures. Seeing as he was paid on a per case basis, he's screwed. The skank he cheated on me with has moved out. He's alone and basically unemployed right now. Thought you both would want to know. Best wishes, and thanks for reaching out to me- I think we all have some sense of closure now. In love,(ex-wife).


That's it for me and Mrs. MM with POSOM. We're closing the door on this guy, his ex, all of it. The present and the future is where our focus shall continue to be. 

Thanks again all for the support and sound advice. We still have a long road ahead but the bumps are getting smoother by the day.


----------



## TDSC60

Happy endings are not common around here. Good to hear one.

Thanks for the updates.


----------



## sokillme

What happens to the people who participated in this stuff with him. After all assuming this was not just sexual harassment all of these women were actively participating and creating a hostile work environment for everyone else. Your wife's story highlights this as in your words, she was a manager and this guys started to harass her staff when she didn't follow through with him. I suspect that is not the only case. I hope they dealt with everyone involved with this and not just these two guys. Affairs always take two people.


----------



## personofinterest

I am so happy for both of you that things seem to be working out.

However, I would NOT in any way, shape, or form EVER advise a WW to post here.....ever.

I can absolutely guarantee that it will set back your progress and destroy her.

And it has nothing to do with the mods or TAM as an entity. It is...half a dozen or so posters who will smell blood in the water.


----------



## Music_Man

personofinterest said:


> I am so happy for both of you that things seem to be working out.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I would NOT in any way, shape, or form EVER advise a WW to post here.....ever.
> 
> 
> 
> I can absolutely guarantee that it will set back your progress and destroy her.
> 
> 
> 
> And it has nothing to do with the mods or TAM as an entity. It is...half a dozen or so posters who will smell blood in the water.


Thanks for the heads up. We're both quite cautious about this. She did go ahead and register, but it's doubtful she'll have time to post. She's involved in some major changes at work, and has lengthy certification exams to study for right now. With everything else going on in our lives, this might not happen at all. Priorities...

She and I have spoken at length and discussed in MC as well- we eventually would like to offer help to others in a group setting, whether speaking at a marriage/relationship seminar or similar. In time, it will happen- but we need to be as fully healed as possible first.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> What happens to the people who participated in this stuff with him. After all assuming this was not just sexual harassment all of these women were actively participating and creating a hostile work environment for everyone else. Your wife's story highlights this as in your words, she was a manager and this guys started to harass her staff when she didn't follow through with him. I suspect that is not the only case. I hope they dealt with everyone involved with this and not just these two guys. Affairs always take two people.


My W thinks they were likely suspended as well and their licenses will probably be suspended for a period of time if they are found to be complicit. If they found that the Admin guy covered things up and the AP's and other folks all knew, expect a full house cleaning. State won't blink.

We didn't ask though- no longer want those details or news. The state is apparently kicking butt and taking names, so it's doubtful that they'll not deal with the AP's. 

Either way, we don't plan on speaking with ex-wife anymore. She and my W have spoken at length and have parted ways amicably. No need to keep her in our lives, as it keeps memories and triggers alive that will be a hindrance. I actually think she'd like to be friends with us, as strange as it may sound, but that's just way too much drama for us. Moving on.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> My W thinks they were likely suspended as well and their licenses will probably be suspended for a period of time if they are found to be complicit. If they found that the Admin guy covered things up and the AP's and other folks all knew, expect a full house cleaning. State won't blink.


I should hope so. I feel bad for the folks who were subjected to this crap and trying to be honorable. Seems like it was ramped.


----------



## MattMatt

Music_Man said:


> Thanks for the heads up. We're both quite cautious about this. She did go ahead and register, but it's doubtful she'll have time to post. She's involved in some major changes at work, and has lengthy certification exams to study for right now. With everything else going on in our lives, this might not happen at all. Priorities...
> 
> She and I have spoken at length and discussed in MC as well- we eventually would like to offer help to others in a group setting, whether speaking at a marriage/relationship seminar or similar. In time, it will happen- but we need to be as fully healed as possible first.


*Moderator note:-*

If anyone attacks you or your wife, please use the report icon or send a pm to member/s of the moderation team. They will be dealt with.


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## MrsMM

Hi all- Mrs. Music Man here. Just wanted to say hello, and that I'll try to post more later in the week if time permits. Super busy this week, but I'll be back when I can. Going to answer a few questions in the introduction thread before logging off.


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## turnera

Welcome! What's the introduction thread?


----------



## OnTheFly

turnera said:


> Welcome! What's the introduction thread?


https://talkaboutmarriage.com/new-member-forum-introduce-yourself/434671-hi-mrs-music-man-here.html


----------



## Music_Man

Hello CWI board- haven't posted in awhile and wanted to update a couple of things. As far as R goes, we are doing well. Yes, there are triggers, yes there have been tears shed, but it's honestly going as well or maybe a bit better than anyone could expect. No regrets on my decision to R- we've made a commitment and are taking the right steps. We are reminded daily of the beauty we once had, and the beauty we're headed towards. MC and IC continue for both of us, and have made a huge difference. 

W is moving up a bit in career, and is focusing on that, our marriage, and our family (not in that order). Not likely that she'll post here in the near future, but she is sharing her story with her staff- particularly the younger one's- to help others when and where she can. She continues to own this, and she's trying to use it for some good in whatever way she can.

POSOM. Our dear old POSOM. We had cut his ex wife out of our lives in effort to just move on from this clown and focus on us. By now, you know when I last posted he was suspended from surgery but could see patients. Not anymore! He may be done, and it's likely that he IS done in this state. He made most of the local news outlets a couple of weeks ago for felony assault. From what the news reports say, the husband of one of his recent AP's came to his office and waited outside for him, to confront him. Things got heated, and POSOM choked/strangled/punched this guy. There were eyewitnesses. One had to pull him off. And of course, said that POSOM jumped on him from behind after the poor guy was walking away. Charged with felony assault, license suspended, whole 9 yards. Since there are witnesses and security footage, and given his current state, the good ole boy network can't help him. I'm sure he'll lawyer-up and get the charges reduced, but he's done. 

I hate like hell that all of this happened to us, but I guess I take some level of satisfaction that my W finally confessing to me was the catalyst for this POS's destruction. I also hate that we can't seem to escape seeing his ugly ass mug, but I feel we've seen it for the last time. 

Once again, thanks all for the advice you've given. I'll be around in other threads and I'll update things here as they progress. Just think that no news is good news- I won't report for awhile unless something unexpectedly goes south.


----------



## oldtruck

This update is music for the ears.


----------



## alte Dame

He is more of a POS than most POSOMs. Usually, creeps like him get away with everything because of their position. This POS is such an extreme example of a POSOM that he's actually getting some consequences.

So glad that you and your FWW are doing so well. I was always rooting for you.


----------



## sokillme

Everyone involved in the whole mess should have been fired. It's not like the POS didn't have willing participants. Oh for the day when threads like this treat the women who had the affairs with this guy as just as much a POS as he is, instead of innocent little flowers that were snapped up in his sinister clutches. Such bull****. I only feel bad for are the people who didn't want to be a part of that and had to work around it daily. Gross.


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## ConanHub

Hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha haha!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:smthumbup::rofl::toast::FIREdevil::grin2:>


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## MattMatt

@Music_Man Good news!

And I have found an image of Dr POSOM:-


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## Wolfman1968

Music_Man said:


> Hello CWI board- haven't posted in awhile and wanted to update a couple of things. As far as R goes, we are doing well. Yes, there are triggers, yes there have been tears shed, but it's honestly going as well or maybe a bit better than anyone could expect. No regrets on my decision to R- we've made a commitment and are taking the right steps. We are reminded daily of the beauty we once had, and the beauty we're headed towards. MC and IC continue for both of us, and have made a huge difference.
> 
> W is moving up a bit in career, and is focusing on that, our marriage, and our family (not in that order). Not likely that she'll post here in the near future, but she is sharing her story with her staff- particularly the younger one's- to help others when and where she can. She continues to own this, and she's trying to use it for some good in whatever way she can.
> 
> POSOM. Our dear old POSOM. We had cut his ex wife out of our lives in effort to just move on from this clown and focus on us. By now, you know when I last posted he was suspended from surgery but could see patients. Not anymore! He may be done, and it's likely that he IS done in this state. He made most of the local news outlets a couple of weeks ago for felony assault. From what the news reports say, the husband of one of his recent AP's came to his office and waited outside for him, to confront him. Things got heated, and POSOM choked/strangled/punched this guy. There were eyewitnesses. One had to pull him off. And of course, said that POSOM jumped on him from behind after the poor guy was walking away. Charged with felony assault, license suspended, whole 9 yards. Since there are witnesses and security footage, and given his current state, the good ole boy network can't help him. I'm sure he'll lawyer-up and get the charges reduced, but he's done.
> 
> I hate like hell that all of this happened to us, but I guess I take some level of satisfaction that my W finally confessing to me was the catalyst for this POS's destruction. I also hate that we can't seem to escape seeing his ugly ass mug, but I feel we've seen it for the last time.
> 
> Once again, thanks all for the advice you've given. I'll be around in other threads and I'll update things here as they progress. Just think that no news is good news- I won't report for awhile unless something unexpectedly goes south.



I think updates are very important for this forum.

People who are struggling with issues in there own relationships often read about similar situations in other posters' threads. I think it is important to find out how the strategies of other posters worked out, so they may gain insight to their own situation. Updates are key in this.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

If you recall did I not tell you people like him will eventually experience karma? You post makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over.
Asshat who messed with my wife got hit by the karma bus, and I take pride in being the guy that steered the bus in his direction.
A saying from my days in the Corps, “ He who desires not to be ****ed with, does not **** over”. When someone messes with what’s mine, there will be hell to pay on their part.

Now, focus on your wife! It’s over and vanquish POSOM doc from your minds.


----------



## TJW

The bible says - Hebrews 13:4(KJV)

_Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but *****mongers and adulterers God will judge._

This guy is clearly more of a POS than the average POSOM. May God reward him according to his works.


----------



## Music_Man

Hello CWI board. I haven't been around in awhile, so just offering an update. I've not been around as much lately mainly due to the busyness of life, but also because there 1000 ways to get triggered around these parts, and sometimes it's good to just step away for a bit.

Things are going well with us and continue to improve. W is still doing things the right way, and doing all that I could ask. We had a weekend away with the holiday this past weekend, and things felt good- just really good. I'm triggering less and less, and I'm continuing to work on myself through IC. There are still days that are hard- no one said this would be easy- but the good far outweighs the bad and that's what I'd hoped for. If things continue on this plane- and I see no reason why they won't- then we're in store for great things. 

Thanks again as always- and I will be back to offer support and insight to others when the timing is right for me.


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## manfromlamancha

Sounds like you are doing well MusicMan. Just a question: how explicit or suggestive were her texts during the sexting phase ?


----------



## Music_Man

manfromlamancha said:


> Sounds like you are doing well MusicMan. Just a question: how explicit or suggestive were her texts during the sexting phase ?


Not terribly descriptive. Not so much the how, but rather the what, if that makes sense. He would try to push things into more explicit talks- but she would often try to steer it back or not respond if he was too expressive. 

They wouldn't talk positions or real 'porn' talk, but more of him saying things like, "damn you looked good today. Wish you'd let me just grab you and **** you". Her response would be something like "wow, someone is horny today. Sounds like you need a cold shower", with him responding with something like "only if you shower with me" or something like that. The exchanges would be short- often 10 or fewer texts. 

Sometimes they'd be a little worse, other times not as bad. He never asked for pictures and she never offered to send any.


----------



## manfromlamancha

So not real sexting - more like flirty banter with boundaries being crossed (mainly by him). Got it.


----------



## Music_Man

manfromlamancha said:


> So not real sexting - more like flirty banter with boundaries being crossed (mainly by him). Got it.


Mostly- I guess the real definition of 'sexting' is more of a graphic and detailed description of what folks would do to each other, along with explicit pictures. 

This falls somewhere between that and flirtatious talk. One of the biggest boundaries for me that was crossed, and one of the points that was a sticking point with me early on in counseling, is that she would start the texts about as often as him. Not the sexual stuff, but just the texts in general. 

That she would start texting him knowing full-well where he would take it tells me that she enjoyed it- whether she tried to steer it back or not, she still liked it, and that sucks.


----------



## ShatteredKat

????

___________________
That she would start texting him knowing full-well where he would take it tells me that she enjoyed it- whether she tried to steer it back or not, she still liked it, and that sucks. 
___________________

Did you discuss her starting texts with certain knowledge of where the esteemed surgeon would take the convo?


----------



## Music_Man

ShatteredKat said:


> ????
> 
> 
> 
> ___________________
> 
> That she would start texting him knowing full-well where he would take it tells me that she enjoyed it- whether she tried to steer it back or not, she still liked it, and that sucks.
> 
> ___________________
> 
> 
> 
> Did you discuss her starting texts with certain knowledge of where the esteemed surgeon would take the convo?


Of course. As I mentioned, this was one of the sticking points for me. Believe me when I tell you that I've looked every angle possible with this thing. Thankfully, we've got an outstanding MC who hasn't given us an easy path on anything, and took her to task on this. For the record, my W has owned this and has fully acknowledged the issue.

She played a dangerous game, no doubt. She was extremely careless with our marriage and her career by continuing on. To her credit, once he moved the talks to trying to get her to actually meet him, she shut it all down and stopped texting altogether- other than to deny his requests and to tell him to stop. 

Still, it was her actions before this that led him to believe that he was given the greenlight to continue. Even though she kept saying "I won't do that" or whatever, by texting him again a few days later, even with a benign greeting of "hey! Whatcha up to today? I have to tell you something funny about a patient" or similar.


----------



## mickybill

Sounds like she really liked the attention and the tease and power she had over him but maybe, probably, most likely was never going to take it physical. The EA is bad, but the PA would be a deal breaker for me.

Good luck!


----------



## Music_Man

mickybill said:


> Sounds like she really liked the attention and the tease and power she had over him but maybe, probably, most likely was never going to take it physical. The EA is bad, but the PA would be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck!


You pretty much nailed it. Again, to her credit, she left that hospital. She basically did the things I would've asked her to do if I had caught her. She cut him off, then left the job. This move and the show of her realization of where things were headed most definitely saved us. 

If she had stayed there and continued with the progression of things, there's little doubt that a PA was on the horizon though. You can only play with fire for so long without igniting a blaze you can't control.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

You are lucky it did not go physical. Prior to the poly I would have bet you 100% it went physical. Glad all is going well.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

My question I have not posed to you is what would you have done if it was a PA? Being a BH who reconciled, I am most curious.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> My question I have not posed to you is what would you have done if it was a PA? Being a BH who reconciled, I am most curious.


This is a question I have pondered many, many times. I've ran the scenarios over and over- considered as many angles and aspects as a person can. And my answer? Well, it depends. Let me explain. 

If it was a PA that had multiple occasions of sex in multiple locations over an extended period, with her only stopping if she got caught, then it would absolutely be over. No question about it. 

If it was a one time thing, and there was clear evidence that she was extremely remorseful and had cut it off...I tend to think I would give R a try.

Somewhere between, a small handful of sexual encounters, then cutting if off? Hard to say. I would have to seek serious counseling and do some serious soul searching. If I was satisfied that she was fully remorseful, then I would consider R, but I'm just not sure if I could stomach the process. 

NLLH, your story is one I've definitely followed and I've actually tried putting myself in your shoes. Some on here just can't understand the R mindset and the idea that the thing that would make one happiest, well, it might just be reconciling with the one you're with.

Some on here might take exception with my varied answers or take me to task by trying to separate the 'degrees' of how serious one type of PA might be over another. There are differences though, and the mindset, level of remorse, and long term desires of the wayward does make a big difference. At least it does for me, and that's all that matters in the end.

Yes, I dodged one hell of a bullet. I'm glad I wasn't faced with having to decide. Sitting here looking at her and holding her by this glowing fire, she still makes me awfully happy. It would have been devastating to walk away, but I would have absolutely done so under the right circumstances. 

She knows it too. Leaving our home after D-day shook her to the core. She also knows- CLEARLY- that if any additional details come to light, or if I find that she's lied through any part of the discovery and reconciliation process, then we are through.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> You are lucky it did not go physical. Prior to the poly I would have bet you 100% it went physical. Glad all is going well.


Lucky indeed. Especially given that the AP was straight up crazy and had done this multiple times. Watching his demise has been eye-opening, to put it mildly. 

I had really good evidence with the texts, but I thought my heart was going to stop on the way to the poly, in the parking lot, and during the poly.


----------



## oldtruck

Music_Man said:


> This is a question I have pondered many, many times. I've ran the scenarios over and over- considered as many angles and aspects as a person can. And my answer? Well, it depends. Let me explain.
> 
> If it was a PA that had multiple occasions of sex in multiple locations over an extended period, with her only stopping if she got caught, then it would absolutely be over. No question about it.
> 
> If it was a one time thing, and there was clear evidence that she was extremely remorseful and had cut it off...I tend to think I would give R a try.
> 
> Somewhere between, a small handful of sexual encounters, then cutting if off? Hard to say. I would have to seek serious counseling and do some serious soul searching. If I was satisfied that she was fully remorseful, then I would consider R, but I'm just not sure if I could stomach the process.
> 
> NLLH, your story is one I've definitely followed and I've actually tried putting myself in your shoes. Some on here just can't understand the R mindset and the idea that the thing that would make one happiest, well, it might just be reconciling with the one you're with.
> 
> Some on here might take exception with my varied answers or take me to task by trying to separate the 'degrees' of how serious one type of PA might be over another. There are differences though, and the mindset, level of remorse, and long term desires of the wayward does make a big difference. At least it does for me, and that's all that matters in the end.
> 
> Yes, I dodged one hell of a bullet. I'm glad I wasn't faced with having to decide. Sitting here looking at her and holding her by this glowing fire, she still makes me awfully happy. It would have been devastating to walk away, but I would have absolutely done so under the right circumstances.
> 
> She knows it too. Leaving our home after D-day shook her to the core. She also knows- CLEARLY- that if any additional details come to light, or if I find that she's lied through any part of the discovery and reconciliation process, then we are through.


 I think you would of eventually attempted recovery if it was a full blown PA
because imagining what one would do if it happened quite often does not match up
when it happened to you

I have seen many BH's state if their wife cheated they would D her only to she them
recover with their WW


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## [email protected]

I'm sorry Music_Man, but polygraph or not, I'd still put odds on a PA. She's a nurse, an advanced one, and she could easily access ways to defeat the poly. A number of fairly low level operatives employed by the feds are able to cheat the poly. They are shown how and practice. She could too.


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## Music_Man

[email protected] said:


> I'm sorry Music_Man, but polygraph or not, I'd still put odds on a PA. She's a nurse, an advanced one, and she could easily access ways to defeat the poly. A number of fairly low level operatives employed by the feds are able to cheat the poly. They are shown how and practice. She could too.


I'm sure there's a number of folks on here that share your opinion. Based on everything I have- and the texts are far more confirming than any poly- I'm good with what we have here. 

FWIW, my IC and our MC don't have any doubts. Our MC told me in a one on one session that she'd have to be a sociopath of a level he's never encountered if there's more to this. 

For myself, I'm confident that I have the truth, and I went into discovery and disclosure fully believing it was a PA- not the other way around.


----------



## Music_Man

oldtruck said:


> I think you would of eventually attempted recovery if it was a full blown PA
> 
> because imagining what one would do if it happened quite often does not match up
> 
> when it happened to you
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen many BH's state if their wife cheated they would D her only to she them
> 
> recover with their WW


Quite possibly. No way to know for certain unless I actually had to walk that road. Thankful that I didn't have to.


----------



## MattMatt

[email protected] said:


> I'm sorry Music_Man, but polygraph or not, I'd still put odds on a PA. She's a nurse, an advanced one, and she could easily access ways to defeat the poly. A number of fairly low level operatives employed by the feds are able to cheat the poly. They are shown how and practice. She could too.


MODERATOR NOTE: 

She is a bloody nurse, not a member of MI6, Mossad, or the CIA. 

We do not need, to be frank, paranoid speculation.

They are reconciled.

Anyone who doesn't like the fact that she was forgiven? We know.

But it is time you all backed away from this thread.


----------



## Music_Man

MattMatt said:


> MODERATOR NOTE:
> 
> She is a bloody nurse, not a member of MI6, Mossad, or the CIA.
> 
> We do not need, to be frank, paranoid speculation.
> 
> They are reconciled.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't like the fact that she was forgiven? We know.
> 
> But it is time you all backed away from this thread.


Thanks @MattMatt 

This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned staying away for a bit. As I said months ago in my OP- I welcome differing opinions and takes. At this point, however, it's clear what direction I've taken. I feel as though I've been as forthcoming and transparent as one can possibly be on an anonymous forum, to give as much insight as possible into who we are as people, and the circumstances surrounding this affair. I'd have to give actual names and the name of the hospital to be any more transparent. 

My W came on the site and gave her story and fielded some tough questions as well. We're moving on. We're well into R and I don't expect any surprises or new details. If I did- I'd be hanging out in the divorce forum. 

I know there are some folks on the forum who are only following threads like mine so they can be there with an 'I told you so' when the WS drops another bomb. I get it- it's happened several times and some of you well-intentioned folks are trying to keep folks like me from more heartache. Still others just want to stand proud in their belief that no one is redeemable and all affairs are the same. 

Well, they aren't all the same, and I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed if your hope is that Ms. Music Man turns out to be playing us all.

Again- I'll be back on a more frequent basis as our healing progresses. Take care all.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> Thanks @MattMatt
> 
> This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned staying away for a bit. As I said months ago in my OP- I welcome differing opinions and takes. At this point, however, it's clear what direction I've taken. I feel as though I've been as forthcoming and transparent as one can possibly be on an anonymous forum, to give as much insight as possible into who we are as people, and the circumstances surrounding this affair. I'd have to give actual names and the name of the hospital to be any more transparent.
> 
> My W came on the site and gave her story and fielded some tough questions as well. We're moving on. We're well into R and I don't expect any surprises or new details. If I did- I'd be hanging out in the divorce forum.
> 
> I know there are some folks on the forum who are only following threads like mine so they can be there with an 'I told you so' when the WS drops another bomb. I get it- it's happened several times and some of you well-intentioned folks are trying to keep folks like me from more heartache. Still others just want to stand proud in their belief that no one is redeemable and all affairs are the same.
> 
> 
> Well, they aren't all the same, and I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed if your hope is that Ms. Music Man turns out to be playing us all.
> 
> Again- I'll be back on a more frequent basis as our healing progresses. Take care all.


You succinctly nailed the mindset of most on this site. I was hellbent on divorce initially, then after much deliberation, decided that if She was remorseful, R was a possibility. Once I changed direction, I was pummeled by many who thought I was doing it to save my assets, off my rocker, as well as delusional. Time has proven I made the correct decision. Christmas Eve will mark 4 years of R.

The point I have tried to make, which seemed to fall on deaf ears, is that each case of infidelity is unique and not one size fits all.

Glad you are doing well.


----------



## ConanHub

Good to hear @Music_Man

I appreciate you sharing the content of the texts.

It absolutely fits the framework of a woman that enjoyed the attention and probably the toying with the OM, knowing she was playing with fire but always maintening enough distance to keep from getting burned.

Even though it is an ugly thing to do to her husband, and somewhat an ugly thing to do to OM, having an attractive man pursue her and bite at any bait she was throwing out there, had to feel good.

I'm glad she got her head on straight. She probably should have just fessed up when she did pull her head out instead of hoping you never found out.

Do you think it did more damage for her to hide it and you found out later or would it have been healthier to learn about it right after she shut it down?

I can't discount the good elements of the years that past after she was done being an idiot, aside from her hiding something rather important that is.


----------



## PreRaph

Music_Man said:


> Thanks @MattMatt
> 
> This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned staying away for a bit. As I said months ago in my OP- I welcome differing opinions and takes. At this point, however, it's clear what direction I've taken. I feel as though I've been as forthcoming and transparent as one can possibly be on an anonymous forum, to give as much insight as possible into who we are as people, and the circumstances surrounding this affair. I'd have to give actual names and the name of the hospital to be any more transparent.
> 
> My W came on the site and gave her story and fielded some tough questions as well. We're moving on. We're well into R and I don't expect any surprises or new details. If I did- I'd be hanging out in the divorce forum.
> 
> I know there are some folks on the forum who are only following threads like mine so they can be there with an 'I told you so' when the WS drops another bomb. I get it- it's happened several times and some of you well-intentioned folks are trying to keep folks like me from more heartache. Still others just want to stand proud in their belief that no one is redeemable and all affairs are the same.
> 
> Well, they aren't all the same, and I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed if your hope is that Ms. Music Man turns out to be playing us all.
> 
> Again- I'll be back on a more frequent basis as our healing progresses. Take care all.


There is nothing wrong with reconciliation, as long as it is done with eyes open. Revenge is not a good reason to divorce.


----------



## ConanHub

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> You succinctly nailed the mindset of most on this site. I was hellbent on divorce initially, then after much deliberation, decided that if She was remorseful, R was a possibility. Once I changed direction, I was pummeled by many who thought I was doing it to save my assets, off my rocker, as well as delusional. Time has proven I made the correct decision. Christmas Eve will mark 4 years of R.
> 
> The point I have tried to make, which seemed to fall on deaf ears, is that each case of infidelity is unique and not one size fits all.
> 
> Glad you are doing well.


I fired a couple shots your way myself though I didn't give a fig about assets or her reasoning. I was only worried about your health and well-being.

Once your situation convinced me that it was a healthy choice for you, I was fully on board.

Here is to your continued health and that of your wife and family as well!

Looking forward to the holidays myself!


----------



## syhoybenden

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> and not one size fits all.
> 
> Glad you are doing well.


Yes indeed! "One size" does not "fit all".


----------



## sokillme

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> You succinctly nailed the mindset of most on this site.


That is always said around here, but what isn't said is because in most cases it's wise advice. I agree that once a situation stabilizes then continuing to push for divorce doesn't help much. But advising to be skeptical of the liars that people who cheat are is once again good advice. That's why this place will never turn into SI where a WS can put a hit out on their BS one day and then next cry and posters will talk about what a good candidate they are.


----------



## Music_Man

ConanHub said:


> Good to hear @Music_Man
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate you sharing the content of the texts.
> 
> 
> 
> It absolutely fits the framework of a woman that enjoyed the attention and probably the toying with the OM, knowing she was playing with fire but always maintening enough distance to keep from getting burned.
> 
> 
> 
> Even though it is an ugly thing to do to her husband, and somewhat an ugly thing to do to OM, having an attractive man pursue her and bite at any bait she was throwing out there, had to feel good.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad she got her head on straight. She probably should have just fessed up when she did pull her head out instead of hoping you never found out.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think it did more damage for her to hide it and you found out later or would it have been healthier to learn about it right after she shut it down?
> 
> 
> 
> I can't discount the good elements of the years that past after she was done being an idiot, aside from her hiding something rather important that is.


I have mixed feelings on her hiding it from me. Of course I hate that she lied, and there's damage to the relationship in terms of trust. Still, like you mentioned, I take into account the years after leaving this mess and that there wasn't a hint since then of any impropriety. 

On the other hand, I'm actually grateful that she waited to tell me. Our relationship was not in the best of shape then, and I would've also wanted to confront the OM and expose both of them. So while the lying is a bad thing, and cannot be rugswept, it helped to protect our children (who were much younger at the time) and I'm sure that, selfishly, she knew it would help her career to keep it under wraps.

Another thing- the OM made a tactical mistake with a statement I mentioned several months back. When the texts had gotten sexual and the EA was growing ever stronger, she asked him, after a string of texts "what is this?" "What is this that we're doing??" His answer was "nothing. Just having some fun" then said "blowing off steam, stressful work. Just a little fun". 

I'm sure his plan was for this statement to help let her guard down, but what it served to do was help to convince her that it WAS nothing serious, and in her mind, a fun (but naughty) thing, and it wasn't going anywhere. She had convinced herself that he wasn't serious either- that he really didn't want to do the things to her that he said. Then, by ramping it up to actually saying "we need to meet somewhere, enough teasing" and all that, it served to 'shake her' and bring her back to reality. 

If he had a chance at getting her in bed, he blew it right here.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

ConanHub said:


> I fired a couple shots your way myself though I didn't give a fig about assets or her reasoning. I was only worried about your health and well-being.
> 
> Once your situation convinced me that it was a healthy choice for you, I was fully on board.
> 
> Here is to your continued health and that of your wife and family as well!
> 
> Looking forward to the holidays myself!


No problem. I am looking forward to the holidays. I am ecstatic as my nephew , who was cheated on three years ago, and his new wife welcomed a baby girl yesterday. He is on cloud 9 and I am happy for him. Wife and I may fly out to Montana to see them December 26th, however, my knees due to old football injuries do not like cold weather, but it will be nice to see my sister and her family.

As for my nephews ex-wife, her paramour who I affectionately refer to as “ Dr. Richard Cranium” has moved on to his next conquest, another nurse. Karma....its a *****.:smile2:


----------



## alte Dame

Is this the doctor POSOM who got fired from another place because of his predatory behavior?


----------



## Music_Man

alte Dame said:


> Is this the doctor POSOM who got fired from another place because of his predatory behavior?


Yes. This was in the early stages of his behavior. He's caused a world of hurt for himself.


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## alte Dame

As your story progressed, I found myself identifying with your WW and believing that she got sucked in and then thrown out with no PA. So, count me as one poster who thinks you got the truth (i.e., any truth that matters).


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## ConanHub

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> No problem. I am looking forward to the holidays. I am ecstatic as my nephew , who was cheated on three years ago, and his new wife welcomed a baby girl yesterday. He is on cloud 9 and I am happy for him. Wife and I may fly out to Montana to see them December 26th, however, my knees due to old football injuries do not like cold weather, but it will be nice to see my sister and her family.
> 
> As for my nephews ex-wife, her paramour who I affectionately refer to as “ Dr. Richard Cranium” has moved on to his next conquest, another nurse. Karma....its a *****.:smile2:


My Mom lives in Montana and I am considering visiting for Christmas. I hear ya about the cold!


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## manfromlamancha

MusicMan, I for one believe that you do have the truth and entire story. I think that many have not read your thread in its entirety else they would not be casting doubt.

If I remember, Dr ****[email protected] got his comeuppance and if he did not, then that is something worth working on.

Your wife entertained his advances because it fed her egokibbles and titillated her. She didn't get physical with him and when it looked like it was heading that way, she shut it down real fast. So I do not believe that if you hadn't entered the scene, it would have gone further. I think there is a good moral backbone underpinning your wife which bodes well for you both going forward. Think of this as a life lesson for you both going forward and one that has probably made you both more aware and therefore stronger.

Good luck.


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## Mr.Married

It isn’t very often that I support reconciliation or that I believe the betrayed spouse got all the information. In your case I will take a position that is not my norm on both accounts. Wish ya’ll the best.


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## VFW

I have known many men like this guy that are always fishing, most of the time it goes nowhere. However, sometimes he gets a bite, then he has them on the hook. I find your wife's question "what are we doing" question curious. He down played it and this turned her off, it makes you wonder if he had made some profession of admiration, even if insincere, would she have bitten? I do believe that most relationships can be fixed if both parties work to fix the problems. I hope that she realizes how fortunate she is to have a man like yourself. I you have seen from reading this forum, that many men would have been as patient as you have been with her. Makes me wonder if she would have been as kind and patient had the roles been reversed?


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## manfromlamancha

VFW said:


> I have known many men like this guy that are always fishing, most of the time it goes nowhere. However, sometimes he gets a bite, then he has them on the hook. I find your wife's question "what are we doing" question curious. He down played it and this turned her off, it makes you wonder if he had made some profession of admiration, even if insincere, would she have bitten? I do believe that most relationships can be fixed if both parties work to fix the problems. I hope that she realizes how fortunate she is to have a man like yourself. I you have seen from reading this forum, that many men would have been as patient as you have been with her. Makes me wonder if she would have been as kind and patient had the roles been reversed?


Some good points made here. Definitely worth further investigation. Her question about what they were doing there implies she expected a different answer, but what answer ? If he had said something like "I really admire you and all that you are" would she have continued and would it have led to a different outcome further down the line. Pretty sure she would not have been as understanding if the roles were reversed. Has she dealt with this in a satisfactory manner (and I do not mean apologising for her bad behaviour)? Has she said why his attention tickled her fancy ? And has she recognised it as a character flaw that she needs to deal with ?


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## Music_Man

@VFW @manfromlamancha 

All of this been discussed in our MC sessions and she's been working on it in IC since day one. I won't divulge all of the details of those sessions here, but it's been discussed at length. 

Remember that the sexual talks didn't start until many months after they started texting. It was a progression of things. He scratched her where she itched for a long time, mainly about her career and leadership skills- which was very important to her working in a male-dominated environment (100% of the surgeons there were male, and 90% of the anesthesia staff as well, and some looked down upon female leaders). She had insecurities about those things, and he gave her a lift and a boost where she needed it. That he was a well respected surgeon (at the time) and was taking time to talk to her in between a very busy schedule with 2 hospitals and 2 offices, and a staff and patients- well, it made her feel special. 

It continued on with baby steps adding things like "not only are you the most organized leader I've been around, but you are also the most stunning. The complete package". And on and on. Little by little, he was breaking down walls. Of course, as I told my W many times, he knocked at the door, but rather than turning him away or setting up proper boundaries, she left the door open, then invited him in. Once there, he made himself at home. And that's 100% on her. And for the record, owns this 100%.

She also has insecurities that date back to childhood that were never fully realized or resolved. We've dealt with that and the understanding is there. It's silly to think that someone so beautiful and talented would have insecurities- but they were there. They've been recognized and dealt with. 

She has also been vigilant since leaving that cesspool with regards to boundaries and shutting down even a mild compliment that could be construed as flirting. Her work environment is also 180 degrees from where she was.

And here's the thing- I'm satisfied, 100%, that her boundaries are strong and that she's taken every measure to ensure this has no chance of ever happening again. 

As for whether or not she would be so forgiving of me? Honestly...impossible to know for certain. Much like the question of "what if she had a full-blown PA?". I can hypothesize, but will never know 100%. We've discussed it at length though, and my W feels as though she would eventually forgive...but again, hard to call this without experiencing it. My gut? I don't think she'd be as forgiving, but that has no bearing on my stance, and she knows my thoughts on the matter. We're hypothesizing here anyway. 

One thing is for certain- she'll never have to forgive me for something like this.


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## VFW

Glad to hear that these issues are being addressed, sounds like you have a good counselor, which will help in the healing process. Men like the POSOM are usually perceptive and find those concerns that women have and pray on those issues. The funny thing is most of the time it is the women themselves that open up to these POS, when they won't do that with their own spouse. The other thing is people in your lives need to be friends of the marriage. Their shouldn't be men texting her from work, except as is absolutely necessary, idol chit-chat should be discouraged. Guard your family time and leave work at work, this helps to cut stress.


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## PSHI

Haven’t been here for a long time - but read your post with interest as it resembles my experience. Not sure where to start, but for what it’s worth— I do not think your wife went PA. However. I do have great concern about a passage I read between posom and her where she seems to be downplaying or saying there’s nothing between them and he replied about deleted texts etc covering his tracks. She really seems to be masterfully playing both you and that other guy.

Pardon if I do not articulate perfectly - but there are things happening here and I will share my experience if you don’t mind. 

First. Modern women in many cases have lost the role as “advocate” or protector of the relationship as perfectly demonstrated by you and other posters here. Men need to wake to their role on the chess board of relationships. Not allow the queen to change roles - move like a horse - only to end up back in the arms of her king protector. 

I mention I haven’t been here for 1-2 years bc, I haven’t felt the need. And it’s been extremely refreshing. 

My wife had an EA. I felt alienated from the life I and we created. And for 5 yrs looking in the mirror was never the same. Then. I met a girl. Talked. Had similar stories. 

My wife lost it. And I’m the process. She finally understood. It was not intentional. But a younger. Prettier. More energetic person was approaching. 

In a way. It made up for the gut wrenching times I’d want to drive in to a tree after seeing texts etc. 

Here’s what I’m trying to say. 

After my wife found out about my friend. She said: you should have known better bc of how you felt about my EA. 

To this day. I can not comprehend this logic. 

What I can comprehend is that only after she saw and felt her own feelings after seeing my EA - only then she grasped the power of what happened. Only then. 

Everything else was a facade of sorrow. Etc. 

So. If your wife has 10 dates. 
Go have 10. Or 11. 

And reclaim your place on the chess board. 


It’s a Very dangerous thing to do. And maybe not for you. But. It worked here. My marriage and family seem stronger. She seems more real to me
Now. And she knows now you play with fire. You get burned too. 

I wish you the best.


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## Music_Man

VFW said:


> Glad to hear that these issues are being addressed, sounds like you have a good counselor, which will help in the healing process. Men like the POSOM are usually perceptive and find those concerns that women have and pray on those issues. The funny thing is most of the time it is the women themselves that open up to these POS, when they won't do that with their own spouse. The other thing is people in your lives need to be friends of the marriage. Their shouldn't be men texting her from work, except as is absolutely necessary, idol chit-chat should be discouraged. Guard your family time and leave work at work, this helps to cut stress.


VFW- your last couple of sentences are vital importance. She had already set those boundaries after starting her new job some years ago, but it's one of my demands as well. Keep business strictly business. No opposite sex texting buddies- ever- for either of us. And full transparency with phones and other devices. 

I've also made it a point to show my face around her workplace from time to time, and to get to know those folks. They all know and respect me- we're good here, and we have advocates on all sides now.

Anything to the contrary would be...well...you know.


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## Buffer

Well done music man


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