# Super Quandary - swinging



## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.

I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.

I don't have any unusual fetishes (other than the Typical American FFM one) and my wife has sex with me even when she doesn't want to.

I just feel stifled; that sexual activity can be more than just what we're doing.

How would I feel about other men having sex with her? I don't know. We're both strong individuals, lived independently before our marriage when I was 35.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

You know, I'm really not sure how I feel about other men having sex with your wife.....


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Tell her you feel stifled and see how it works out for you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


Good luck man,

We will be here when you need advice on your pending divorce, or her affair or whatever else of the million things that can go wrong. But who know maybe you are the one, the one who wins the lotto, or pulls that royal flush. If so say hi to Mrs Unicorn.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

The Mighty Fred said:


> How would I feel about other men having sex with her? I don't know. We're both strong individuals, lived independently before our marriage when I was 35.


This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs. This is your marriage, this is your marriage with swinging - it's a game of Russian Roulette. That bullet is the "We didn't expect to feel this badly about seeing the spouse get jackhammered by another."

Look at the after-effects of infidelity. Why can't people play the mental trick of treating that new partner as though that partner was from their spouse's past? Sure, swinging is not infidelity, but swinging is in the here and now, your spouse's old lovers are from before you knew each other, so not quite "real people" more like abstractions. Then add in the fact that you're likely in the same room, so you're seeing everything in Technicolor and hearing everything in Dolby.

When you play Russian Roulette, your odds of winning a round are 5 out of 6, but boy-o-boy, if you are unlucky . . .


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

The Mighty Fred said:


> I just feel stifled; that sexual activity can be more than just what we're doing.


Have her buy some wigs and some slutty dresses and ****-me pumps. Drop her off at a bar. Take your time parking the car, take your time going to the bar. Let some guys buy her some drinks, flirt with her. You walk into the bar, you buy a drink and survey the room. Then you spot her, send her a drink. Then saunter over and ease out the other guy, flirt with her, get physical. Take her to a hotel and **** her brains out, play your characters, don't break character and start talking about your kid or family problems. Hard, furious sex, not spousal-love sex.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

You're going to have a big fight on your hand the first time either one of you pays more attention to the other person than to your spouse or compares you up against them or tells you he has a bigger one than you do. Your marriage ain't broke, so don't fix it. Count your lucky stars.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

The Mighty Fred said:


> I just feel stifled.....


I would stifle that stifled feeling.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

OnTheFly said:


> I would stifle that stifled feeling.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You can ask if she'd ever thought about it or would ever consider it but probably best not to suggest. Then if she's very negative, it shouldn't become a big problem. My wife brought up the idea years ago, mostly in the context of her wanting me to have some fun, but we discussed it and decided it would be even more fun to do together. However, my first experience was alone, and I got to experience a lifelong fantasy while doing so. Anyway, that led to over 13 years of amazing experiences we've been able to share together.

Yes, it could be a disaster, especially if you approach it from a YOUR needs perspective. And if she says no (hopefully after _some_ discussion and honesty), respect that and drop it thereafter.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

I chose the wrong Stifle clip. I knew it was a catchphrase of the show but I never realized how damn popular a phrase it was. Here's the supercut. 6 minutes of glorious stifles.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


Fred to Wilma: "Let's open up the marriage."
Wilma to Fred: "I'm not so sure that's a good idea."
Fred to Wilma: "Pester-pester-pester"

Wilma: "Fine."

Fred to Wilma: "God! Whacking it while Pablo Thundercock reams you out is the best sex I've ever had!"
Wilma to Fred: "You know, I'm really happy that we made this life-change!"

Later,

Wilma and Pablo: "We'd rather that you move out, but it's your house as well as ours. You can live in the basement, but really, Pablo doesn't want to share me with anyone else. We like that you pay the mortgage, but really, take the basement door when you go out, and don't perv out and eavesdrop while Pablo is showing what a real man is. K thnx Bye!".


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)




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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


Start with proposing it as something you read or heard about (which honestly you did in order to have the idea), and you're curious on her feelings, or if she likes the idea.

Or you can download and print a play list interest form, making sure it has swing/open on it, and see where she stands.

After that you have to decide whether you are doing this as individuals or couples. She might be willing to let you go out, even if she has no interest. But you need that knowledge to know where to go from there.

If you decided to take up swinging, then join an established group, either or general kink, so you can get prospective partners by others who have had a chance to know them.

You will receive a lot of negative views on the matter here. If you have more specific questions, @Married but Happy and myself are both experienced in open/poly or ethical non-monogamy. As he noted, while it can help, it can also blow up in your face if you're not careful and on board together.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

If you're going to go swinging, then take small steps. Why not start with same-room, soft-swap. Only have sex with your wife, but the two couples only watch each other during sex, no touching allowed. Now see how you deal with that. A walkback from a soft-swap should be easier to handle than dealing with bad aftermath from a traditional swinging.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your proposing this to your wife could turn out three ways:
1. She's gung-ho 
2. She immediately files for divorce
3. She doesn't file for divorce but your marriage will NEVER be the same 

What this proposal will tell your wife in any circumstance is that you don't cherish her enough to want to keep her all to yourself. There goes the magic in the marriage.


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## missus_ashleigh (Dec 18, 2020)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


I would not be open to opening up my marriage and would be quite hurt by my husband suggesting that. You seem to be taking your wonderful union for granted. I don't know what would be worse for me, my husband wanting to have sex with other people or him being OK with me having sex with other men.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

Don't have much more to say than what's already been said. I think a lot of married people would love to have sex with others. Experiment a little. Make things more exciting. It works for a small percentage of people. But as others have said, the chances of it working out are slim compared to the chance that it will not work out. Sure, you could say that life is about taking chances. Live a little. Don't just do what's safe.

The problem is that if your marriage/family is important to you, do you really want to take that risk just for a hot tub party or an hour in the "red room" (or whatever....i have no idea). "Not working out" can mean you find out that it's just not for you and you move on...or it can mean the end of your marriage. But only you know best whether this will make a positive contribution to your relationship.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> Your proposing this to your wife could turn out three ways:
> 1. She's gung-ho
> 2. She immediately files for divorce
> 3. She doesn't file for divorce but your marriage will NEVER be the same
> ...


Yeah, I think this condenses it. Thanks. I'm just frustrated. Any suggestion on handling this?


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

JustTheWife said:


> Don't have much more to say than what's already been said. I think a lot of married people would love to have sex with others. Experiment a little. Make things more exciting. It works for a small percentage of people. But as others have said, the chances of it working out are slim compared to the chance that it will not work out. Sure, you could say that life is about taking chances. Live a little. Don't just do what's safe.
> 
> The problem is that if your marriage/family is important to you, do you really want to take that risk just for a hot tub party or an hour in the "red room" (or whatever....i have no idea). "Not working out" can mean you find out that it's just not for you and you move on...or it can mean the end of your marriage. But only you know best whether this will make a positive contribution to your relationship.


This is wisdom and I need to re-read it to burn it in. Thanks much.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

missus_ashleigh said:


> I would not be open to opening up my marriage and would be quite hurt by my husband suggesting that. You seem to be taking your wonderful union for granted. I don't know what would be worse for me, my husband wanting to have sex with other people or him being OK with me having sex with other men.


Yeah, thanks: it's hard for me to appreciate her considerations. She likes sex, so I thought it might be sensible. . .but you're right to note it seems to reflect on her. 

This is tough. I never thought I'd feel this antsy.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The Mighty Fred said:


> Yeah, I think this condenses it. Thanks. I'm just frustrated. Any suggestion on handling this?


You probably have some ideas on what you would want to do with another female. So, try to incorporate those ideas into your routine with your wife. Anything you can do with another woman, you can do with your wife. Change of scenery, role play, dress up etc. Good luck.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> You probably have some ideas on what you would want to do with another female. So, try to incorporate those ideas into your routine with your wife. Anything you can do with another woman, you can do with your wife. Change of scenery, role play, dress up etc. Good luck.


No, I really don't. I just like the physicality, if you can understand what I mean.

It's tough even talking about sex with her because she tenses up (I don't know why, we've never had difficulties there). It's vanilla stuff and she likes it that way. As a lark, I suggested we pretend at tantric sex and she really likes it---candles, music, hour or so slow sex. But last night I wanted to buy her lingerie and it was a terse discussion. I'm not into kink. But anything fun? tenses her up.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> No, I really don't. I just like the physicality, if you can understand what I mean.
> 
> It's tough even talking about sex with her because she tenses up (I don't know why, we've never had difficulties there). It's vanilla stuff and she likes it that way. As a lark, I suggested we pretend at tantric sex and she really likes it---candles, music, hour or so slow sex. But last night I wanted to buy her lingerie and it was a terse discussion. I'm not into kink. But anything fun? tenses her up.


Kink covers a broad range of activities. And there is a lot of truth in the saying, "it's only kinky the first time". For some sexy bed clothes is kinky.

I'd ask her if there was some kind of problem in her past that makes her tense up when you mention different things sexually wise.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


So you apparently have a happy marriage which however you are so willing to risk loosing because you dont want to be faithful. You would be mad to risk it, she may well be extremely hurt and feel very betrayed and rightly so. Once you have asked things will never be the same, is it worth the risk that she may loose respect for you and never see you the same way again? You are basicaly saying are you ok if I commit adultery with another woman/women? Are you ok if I break my marriage vows?

Be thankful that you have a wife who is willing in bed. Be thankful for a good wife and good marriage. Stop thinking about other women and think of her only. Oh and BTW if you are feeding your fantasies by watching porn then stop is my advice.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> No, I really don't. I just like the physicality, if you can understand what I mean.
> 
> It's tough even talking about sex with her because she tenses up (I don't know why, we've never had difficulties there). It's vanilla stuff and she likes it that way. As a lark, I suggested we pretend at tantric sex and she really likes it---candles, music, hour or so slow sex. But last night I wanted to buy her lingerie and it was a terse discussion. I'm not into kink. But anything fun? tenses her up.


I don't think there is anything wrong with you pushing her on discussing things even though she gets tense and uncomfortable about it - YOU are uncomfortable not talking about it, so why should you defer to HER needs all the time? It's not like you are being uncaring or unloving...you are trying to convey a desire and feelings you have, and it's ALWAYS better for spouses to share those things, even if you won't get what you want. I always wanted to KNOW things that my husband was feeling, especially sexually, even if I didn't like what I heard - it's healthier to be open and honest, and you need to discuss it if she is uncomfortable, for both of your benefit!!

Have you always had this dynamic with sex in your marriage? Have you never asked her to buy lingerie before?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Keep in mind the fantasy is likely much more exciting than the reality of swinging.

My guess is that you have a MUCH MUCH MUCH better chance of working out eager, enthusiastic, and exploratory sex with your wife than you EVER will with swinging.

Hey look.... I get it. Sex with other women sounds like fun. I’m a red blooded male that married very young.
The percentage of couples that successfully swing is VERY small. The problem is that most men come in here thinking they are part of that small percentage.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


57 and antsy sexually. Mid-life crisis?

You know you'd just be using her to get sex from other women. Why not open it up completely for her. She would be able to find and get sex from 100 random men a day but men find it much harder to randomly find women to have non committal sex with. BAM swinging where the husbands can pressure their wives into having sex with stranger so they can have sex with other women who were pressured into swinging by their husbands.

Sure not all swinging is like that but look around this site and it doesn't take long to find said women. 

We'll be here when the guilt and shame hit her and she shuts down sex with you and you want a divorce or she is resentful and she wants a divorce and you are worried she will tell your son that you pressured her into sex with other men.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

P.S. You might not feel like mighty Fred when standing next to Ten Inch Tom.

Just Saying ......


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You know, I'm really not sure how I feel about other men having sex with your wife.....


I've thought this over. I think I'm ok with other men having sex with his wife. 
It wouldn't bother me too much.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Not a midlife crisis. Kid's out of the way. Before our child, we had plenty of good sex. Kids of course take time, tire you out, etc.

I think this is one reason you have all these old swingers. Another is that, at a certain age, sex is more simply a physical pleasure activity than an activity connected to having a family. 

And yeah, she has tensed up talking bout lingerie. Even just this morning. I, um, probably should ask her why. I'm probably the second guy in her life; at a younger age she lost virginity to her best friend's brother, classic computer nerd type.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> 57 and antsy sexually. Mid-life crisis?
> 
> You know you'd just be using her to get sex from other women. Why not open it up completely for her. She would be able to find and get sex from 100 random men a day but men find it much harder to randomly find women to have non committal sex with. BAM swinging where the husbands can pressure their wives into having sex with stranger so they can have sex with other women who were pressured into swinging by their husbands.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I've come to learn this. . . I'm stunned. I call it the Magic ***** that Rules the World. . . by it, women control personal and social relationships across a wide range of human activity. Friendships, family, etc. The Power of the *****.

Deeply unfair to men.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> Kink covers a broad range of activities. And there is a lot of truth in the saying, "it's only kinky the first time". For some sexy bed clothes is kinky.
> 
> I'd ask her if there was some kind of problem in her past that makes her tense up when you mention different things sexually wise.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


This makes sense. But she used to give the appearance, by being open and frank, that sex wasn't a source of tension. Used to do the classic "point out the phallic symbol" stuff some girls do. But to actually talk about it on a personal basis? Not too easy at all.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

The Mighty Fred said:


> Yeah, I've come to learn this. . . I'm stunned. I call it the Magic *** that Rules the World. . . by it, women control personal and social relationships across a wide range of human activity. Friendships, family, etc. The Power of the ***.
> 
> Deeply unfair to men.


LOL it's deeply unfair to MEN that the ones who promised to love us and cherish us want to trade us so they can have some strange. 

Oh and you wife tenses at talking with her long time lover about sex but you think she will be into swinging.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> LOL it's deeply unfair to MEN that the ones who promised to love us and cherish us want to trade us so they can have some strange.
> 
> Oh and you wife tenses at talking with her long time lover about sex but you think she will be into swinging.


Yes that was my thought. If she isnt happy talking openly about sex she is NOT going to be happy that her husband wants to have sex with lots of other women let alone that his respect for her is so weak that he wants to push her/pressure her into having sex with other men. 
Honestly if a man I was with suggested swinging I would know that he didnt love or respect me, and I would seriously question if I wanted to even be married to him. The OP may be blowing up his whole marriage and life for this. What a waste that would be when he is old and alone and full of regrets.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Yes that was my thought. If she isnt happy talking openly about sex she is NOT going to be happy that her husband wants to have sex with lots of other women let alone that his respect for her is so weak that he wants to push her/pressure her into having sex with other men.
> Honestly if a man I was with suggested swinging I would know that he didnt love or respect me, and I would seriously question if I wanted to even be married to him. The OP may be blowing up his whole marriage and life for this. What a waste that would be when he is old and alone and full of regrets.


Oh come now he might not be old and alone.

But there is a long way from not being old and alone and being married to someone you get along with and has sex with you frequently.

I know my marriage is the envy of most who know me. 27 years on our first marriage with no real trouble, ever. Life has thrown tribulations at us but we have never let that become problems within our marriage. I'd never risk that for anything.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> This makes sense. But she used to give the appearance, by being open and frank, that sex wasn't a source of tension. Used to do the classic "point out the phallic symbol" stuff some girls do. But to actually talk about it on a personal basis? Not too easy at all.


My wife is also uncomfortable talking about sex. It was never talked about in her home while growing up. I tried a lot of stuff to try to get her to open up and talk about it; bought books for her that she wouldn't read, tried go get her to do surveys with me that she wouldn't do, nothing worked. One problem is that we have different outlooks on things. I'm of the mind that nothing stays the same, including marriage. It is either growing and getting better or it is deteriorating, making it necessary to always be working on it. My wife is of the mind that if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

I finally found a way to get her talking by playing games like strip Uno on date nights. One of the "penalties" is that you have to truthfully answer a question. I had a list of about 50 questions and I would go through them one at a time over a period of weeks. It was fun and got her to open up and talk about things that I could never get her to talk about otherwise. Of course I should also mention that we are usually sipping wine or cocktails when we play. Give it a try.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> Yeah, I've come to learn this. . . I'm stunned. I call it the Magic *** that Rules the World. . . by it, women control personal and social relationships across a wide range of human activity. Friendships, family, etc. The Power of the ***.
> 
> Deeply unfair to men.


Don't be silly...if women have all the control over you because they have a body part you can't stop thinking about, that's on YOU. If you don't want to be controlled, DON'T BE.

I am curious, if you do get your fantasy of switching partners, how would you feel if she started really getting into it, and sexually opening up to other men more than she ever did with you? Some women get really attached to men who give them orgasms...are you ready for her to feel that way about the men that make her body feel amazing, while you watch?
Some guys really don't mind, and some couples get alot of enjoyment out of switching partners around, just make sure you really know what you are asking for. 

If you ARE going to bring up swinging (and attempt it), you have some communication issues to work out before you go down that path...if you are too intimidated to find out why she's so tense with you, you aren't going to be able to navigate the conversations you have to have as a swinger.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> Oh come now he might not be old and alone.
> 
> But there is a long way from not being old and alone and being married to someone you get along with and has sex with you frequently.
> 
> I know my marriage is the envy of most who know me. 27 years on our first marriage with no real trouble, ever. Life has thrown tribulations at us but we have never let that become problems within our marriage. I'd never risk that for anything.


He may end up old and alone if he persues his fantasies.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

The Mighty Fred said:


> No, I really don't. I just like the physicality, if you can understand what I mean.
> 
> It's tough even talking about sex with her because she tenses up (I don't know why, we've never had difficulties there). It's vanilla stuff and she likes it that way. As a lark,* I suggested* we pretend at tantric sex and she really likes it---candles, music, hour or so slow sex. But last night I wanted to buy her lingerie and it was a* terse discussion*. I'm not into kink. But anything fun? tenses her up.


You suggesting. You starting a discussion. Vanilla Sex. Communication is always an excellent behavior in relationships, I'm not trying to knock it, but . . . . 

Have you ever just taken your wife? Either out of the blue or after a prolonged seduction? This business of "enthusiastic and informed consent" is for college kids, not for married couples. Be Tarzan, pick her up, either carry her in your arms or put her over your shoulder and take her to your bedroom and you undress her and ravage her. Your hunger and desire for her is expressed through your actions, not your words. In fact, your desire was so damn strong that to talk and ask her would waste too much time, you need her NOW!

Sometimes women like that. And if she's really not in the mood, you two can share a laugh about how much of a brute you are when you're horny.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

The Mighty Fred said:


> Yeah, I've come to learn this. . . I'm stunned. I call it the Magic *** that Rules the World. . . by it, women control personal and social relationships across a wide range of human activity. Friendships, family, etc. The Power of the ***.
> 
> Deeply unfair to men.


Your comment here suggests to me that these two books might help you.

No More Mr. Nice Guy.
Married Man Sex Life Primer.

Going back to the topic of swinging, read some of the horror stories. Husband looks over at wife having a super-fantastic experience, better than she ever had with him, and loses his ****. Wife starts sneaking to the Other Man for more one-on-one experiences and thus begins an affair. The other couple really want a FFM threesome and you are frozen out of the action.

Once you open Pandora's Box, you have no idea what is going to pop out.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Don't be silly...if women have all the control over you because they have a body part you can't stop thinking about, that's on YOU. If you don't want to be controlled, DON'T BE.
> 
> I am curious, if you do get your fantasy of switching partners, how would you feel if she started really getting into it, and sexually opening up to other men more than she ever did with you? Some women get really attached to men who give them orgasms...are you ready for her to feel that way about the men that make her body feel amazing, while you watch?
> Some guys really don't mind, and some couples get alot of enjoyment out of switching partners around, just make sure you really know what you are asking for.
> ...


Not just orgasms, sometimes sex will do it, other times they don't even need sex, just attention. A "bonding switch" MAY get thrown and then feelings start to develop and are transferred from husband to this new man. Every dude who brings his wife into swinging thinks that she will think like he thinks, and he's thinking "It's just sex and there are no feelings involved."

All he needs is for his long loving wife, who may be one of these women to have never had a PIV orgasm, to get with this new guy and through sheet luck of how his penis fits into her vagina, and his technique, she suddenly experiences a PIV orgasm or she suddenly starts squirting. Back home her husband tries to duplicate what the OM did and fails, and fails again, and fails again. Now frustrated, the wife suggests a repeat performance with the other couple, totally hiding her selfish interest in wanting another PIV and squirting experience. This is a nightmare scenario for most husbands.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Two couples i know personally come to mind. One was into swinging for some years and are now divorced. The wife ended up meeting someone she connected with better then her husband....she actually gave him the chance to close things up at that point but his strange was more important.

Now that he's divorced he'd do anything to get her back, but she's done with him and is still with the last guy she met several years ago.

The other couple almost divorced when he suggested swinging. She said no but didn't look at him the same after that and ended up having an affair; during said affair she actually asked him of he still wanted to swing and he, thinking of nothing beyond strange, said yes. But once he realized she already had a guy and would likely get men far more easily then he'd find a woman decided he didn't want said open marriage. It took a long time but they managed to put things back together and are happy today.

Today you have a happy marriage. You are going to wreck it for some strange you don't even know if you'll get. As has been pointed out, if your wife won't talk about sex why would you think she'd go for an open marriage? And even if she does she may meet someone she likes more then you.

You'd be much better off trying baby steps to more spice with your wife. You're not going to go from vanilla to swinging from chandeliers in a day, but maybe you could start with small things? Try racy lingerie....that's a nice place to start.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

While we're all on this topic of swinging, I'm really curious about the opinions from the naysayers about "soft swinging" or "same-room" as they call it. This is where you have an evening out with another couple, all retire to the same hotel room, each couple to their own bed, and you have sex with your own spouse, but in full view of the other couple.

I don't know how swingers actually arrange this because my understanding is that most swingers are in it for the full swap and this is too "vanilla" for them to devote time to. When I read about swinging, I'm always reading about full swap. I see this soft swap mentioned but I never actually have read any testimonials from people who arranged this type of encounter. I suspect that if these soft swaps occur it is between already established friendly couples and they never go into the actual swinging sub-culture.

Anyways, what are the pitfalls you see?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Two couples i know personally come to mind. One was into swinging for some years and are now divorced.
> 
> The other couple almost divorced when he suggested swinging.


Yes, this does happen ... sometimes. On the other hand, there are approximately 9,000,000 people in the US currently involved in some form of swinging, not counting other forms of non-monogamy. I have met well over 500 of them. The 100 or so I know fairly well have better than average long term marriages, and research tends to support this. Of course, problems can and do occur - I have just rarely seen any amongst people who've been into it for a while. The risks are greatest at the beginning, but can best be avoided by careful discussion and mutual agreement on how to handle issues.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, this does happen ... sometimes. On the other hand, there are approximately 9,000,000 people in the US currently involved in some form of swinging, not counting other forms of non-monogamy. I have met well over 500 of them. The 100 or so I know fairly well have better than average long term marriages, and research tends to support this. *Of course, problems can and do occur* - I have just rarely seen any amongst people who've been into it for a while. The risks are greatest at the beginning, but can best be avoided by careful discussion and mutual agreement on how to handle issues.


And certainly, problems can and do occur in marriages where there is no swinging...so the "uncommon" sexual choices of some couples might not be what causes those problems for them, they may have ended up facing those issues at some point anyway.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> Of course, problems can and do occur - I have just rarely seen any amongst people who've been into it for a while.


It's probably important to note that the problems that do arise in long term ENM relationships are not frequently due to said ENM. Open/poly relationships are just as subceptable to non sex related problems as closed monogamous one.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> And certainly, problems can and do occur in marriages where there is no swinging...so the "uncommon" sexual choices of some couples might not be what causes those problems for them, they may have ended up facing those issues at some point anyway.


We'll, geeze! Let's just read each other's minds while we're at it.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

maquiscat said:


> We'll, geeze! Let's just read each other's minds while we're at it.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Lol!!! Well, where do you think I learned that from...??


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


If you approach it, it should be approached only if it is to serve the interests of the both of you. Based on my experience in the swinging community I would estimate that the percentage of couples who venture into the world and don't negatively affect their relationship is somewhere below 10 percent. If you're getting into it to satisfy the fantasy of one member of the couple I would put the likelihood of damaging the relationship at 99%. 

The best way to approach things if your wife is interested in this is to take it slow. Start with going to a strip club have her watch you get a lap dance, see how she feels about that. If you're interested in a full swap situation you should sample a tamer version of seeing your wife turned on by another guy. Going from 0-full swap is a very dangerous move. 

Then if your main goal is a FFM you have the problem of finding a unicorn. A unicorn being a single woman looking for a MF couple. There are plenty of couples with a cuckold husband who just want to watch, we met a few of those in our travels but the guy always creeped us out so that was a no go. 

The first order of business is determining if you wife has even the slightest interest in this, even broaching the subject has numerous risks involved. Tread lightly.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

The Mighty Fred said:


> Yeah, I've come to learn this. . . I'm stunned. I call it the Magic *** that Rules the World. . . by it, women control personal and social relationships across a wide range of human activity. Friendships, family, etc. The Power of the ***.
> 
> Deeply unfair to men.


I don't think it is unfair and it isn't always true.

Valuable men attract women and value women in return.

You should value your woman enough to cherish, protect and not want to use her like a piece of meat so you can treat other wives like a piece of meat.

It would be better to give her the lion's share in a divorce favoring her and then you can try your old luck at picking up single women.

Better work on your game.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

You'll only know if you ask...but odds are she will say No as from my understanding and reading, less than 7% of women are into anything like swinging or sharing. I know many more men would be into it but without a wife who is, your aren't going anywhere.

I think it would be an interesting way to spice things up as I check out other sites where some couples really enjoy it and base vacations and such on it.

My wife isn't into it so I will never know.

But good luck to you!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> You'll only know if you ask...but odds are she will say No as from my understanding and reading, less than 7% of women are into anything like swinging or sharing. I know many more men would be into it but without a wife who is, your aren't going anywhere.
> 
> I think it would be an interesting way to spice things up as I check out other sites where some couples really enjoy it and base vacations and such on it.
> 
> ...


I am amazed that its anything near 7% who are into it.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I am amazed that its anything near 7% who are into it.


Well thats only 7 out of 100 and I would venture to say a few of them are just doing it for their man. I think very few woman (probably 1% or less) ever are the ones to initiate the idea. The few couples I know that swing or share its all the guy doing the coordinating and planning and the wife just goes along with it. I guess they are just submissive in the relationship?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> But once he realized she already had a guy and would likely get men far more easily then he'd find a woman decided he didn't want said open marriage.


LOL...I read about that happening quite a bit.

Men don't own mirrors. I've said it my entire life. These guys that want to open their marriages are usually only marginally better looking than Quasimodo, but they're *deluded* enough to think that women will be lining up at their doors and they'll have to beat them off with a stick. What they _usually_ find out is that their wives have no problem attracting the men (and women!) on the swinger websites, but a lot of the time it goes nowhere because the wife of the other couple ain't gonna 'take one for the team' by banging good old Quasimodo. These guys are their own birth control.

It's highly amusing how they'll suddenly claim they _"don't want to open the marriage after all"_ only AFTER they face the reality of how low they rate on the desirability scale in the swinging world.

Hysterical.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

My wife and i have a strong marriage and it would damage it if either if us mentioned this. If i saw another man with my wife only one of us would leave vertically. Work on your own bedroom to spice it up. Do not bring in others as i do not think it will end well for your marriage.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL...I read about that happening quite a bit.
> 
> Men don't own mirrors. I've said it my entire life. These guys that want to open their marriages are usually only marginally better looking than Quasimodo, but they're *deluded* enough to think that women will be lining up at their doors and they'll have to beat them off with a stick. What they _usually_ find out is that their wives have no problem attracting the men (and women!) on the swinger websites, but a lot of the time it goes nowhere because the wife of the other couple ain't gonna 'take one for the team' by banging good old Quasimodo. These guys are their own birth control.
> 
> ...


Nobody taught them that permission/availability does not equal opportunity 😁


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

My advice is to disconnect from the porn- permanently. It's damaged your sense of reality. There aren't any quality ladies out there that are going to be dying to have sex with you- unless you are excessively wealthy- and even then it would be a lie. I mean, even Robert Redford had lost his looks by your age.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Eh, my wife and I have been ethically non-monogamous for most of our marriage.

Though i would say i am probably "polysaturated" right now...

Swinging and hookups really aren't our thing though. We typically form long term relationships.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> Though i would say i am probably "polysaurated" right now...


You are an edible oil?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> You are an edible oil?


aye, and i am told that i am delicious.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> My advice is to disconnect from the porn- permanently. It's damaged your sense of reality. There aren't any quality ladies out there that are going to be dying to have sex with you- unless you are excessively wealthy- and even then it would be a lie. I mean, even Robert Redford had lost his looks by your age.


Well, I think there is truth in this but let's be a little real. There _are_ some attractive 57 year old men out there. I've see some as I go about my average, daily life. 57 doesn't necessarily mean a man is unf***kable.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Well, I think there is truth in this but let's be a little real. There _are_ some attractive 57 year old men out there. I've see some as I go about my average, daily life. 57 doesn't necessarily mean a man is unf***kable.


Ok, maybe. But I'd guess that his wife could go find a new, younger, and more handsome lover (if that is all she wanted) in a couple days while MightyFred would have to work on it for months- even if he's the hottest 57 year old man in town. Unless... he's seriously wealthy and can gain attention by his big boy toys. Once his respected wife takes off- his value will drop considerably. He'll no longer be a respectable man with a respectable woman.... more like a dirty old man looking for a dirty old woman. lol


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> She said no but didn't look at him the same after that and ended up having an affair; during said affair she actually asked him of he still wanted to swing and he, thinking of nothing beyond strange, said yes. But once he realized she already had a guy and would likely get men far more easily then he'd find a woman decided he didn't want said open marriage.


I'm really not impressed with her. Saying no and then communicating that the relationship is damaged and she may want to split is one thing.

Going off to be a cheating ho and then asking him if he still wanted to after already cheating was really low and cheap.

He really must be a wuss to have not ended it.

Did she think him asking a stupid question gave her permission to cheat and then rub his face in it?

Swapping is at least something couples have to communicate about.

I'm just struck by the imbalance in that marriage and I wonder how the woman respects the man at all after doing what she did and him just knuckling under and going along with the marriage.

He obviously lost respect from asking about swapping but how much could he have gained by not going nuclear about her slimy affair tactic?

This is an interesting case.

If I had a brain fart and talked to Mrs. C about swinging, it would break her heart and she would let me know and I guarantee I would respect her feelings, I would also wake up and repent.

If she then just went out and brought some guy into our marriage behind my back..... He would need to leave the country to escape my wrath and she would be divorced so fast it would make her head spin.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Ok, maybe. But I'd guess that his wife could go find a new, younger, and more handsome lover (if that is all she wanted) in a couple days while MightyFred would have to work on it for months- even if he's the hottest 57 year old man in town. Unless... he's seriously wealthy and can gain attention by his big boy toys. Once his respected wife takes off- his value will drop considerably. He'll no longer be a respectable man with a respectable woman.... more like a dirty old man looking for a dirty old woman. lol


And of course there are always older women who would want to be with that 57 year old man as HE would be their "catch".


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> And of course there are always older women who would want to be with that 57 year old man as HE would be their "catch".


I’m mid forties but I have to say there are some dang hot older women out there.... at least in Texas.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> And of course there are always older women who would want to be with that 57 year old man as HE would be their "catch".


When I was that age a much younger woman wanted me as her FWB - that continued for over 5 years, and nearly became a live-in poly arrangement. Even now, it would not be difficult to find women near my age for short or long term relationships. It would take longer than it would for a reasonably attractive woman, and she could no doubt pick up a new partner every night if that was what she wanted - but quantity isn't necessarily quality (although quantity has a quality of its own!).


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Oddly enough, it seems easier for me to find partners than it is for my wife. It always has been. 

I know several guys that have had similar experiences. 

When it comes to polyamory, what i see in real life is actually opposite from how everyone online that i talk to seems to think it plays out. 

Of course, i am not a huge fan of online dating sites, so that might be a part of it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I have a very introverted personality and the idea of swinging just seems so awkward. But I do have a joke that will allow you to role play...

Imagine as if you are actually still in a relationship with an ex girlfriend. She is out banging another guy and you are banging another girl (in reality your wife). In this imaginary version of reality, your swinging! Yay


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> And of course there are always older women who would want to be with that 57 year old man as HE would be their "catch".


I suppose he could go for older widows that might be trying to relive their youth.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Eh, my wife and I have been ethically non-monogamous for most of our marriage.
> 
> Though i would say i am probably "polysaturated" right now...
> 
> Swinging and hookups really aren't our thing though. We typically form long term relationships.


Sorry but the words 'ethical' and 'adultery' just dont go together.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Well, I think there is truth in this but let's be a little real. There _are_ some attractive 57 year old men out there. I've see some as I go about my average, daily life. 57 doesn't necessarily mean a man is unf***kable.


There are some attractive people of both sexes ot there at 57, but definately the minority.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Sorry but the words 'ethical' and 'adultery' just dont go together.


Only from your world view/religious upbringing. Since ethics are neither objective not universal, ethical non monogamy exists.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Sorry but the words 'ethical' and 'adultery' just dont go together.


Fortunately for the world, you are tasked with neither the power nor the responsibility to determine what consenting adults consider ethical in their own relationships. 

Surprising, I know, and given your predilection for trying, probably quite disheartening, but true nonetheless.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

These answers are due to the fact that you believe in ethical relativism. There ARE folks who believe in absolute ethics, and for folks who believe in this, This IS adultery.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Sorry but the words 'ethical' and 'adultery' just dont go together.


im sorry. i didnt realize that you were the authority on what is ethical. 

who was that wise man? the one that was considered the wisest person on the planet, wisest person to ever live? That wise man that God rewarded with more wealth than anyone had ever had before or since?

you know, the one that had hundreds of wives and concubines?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

For relativistic thinkers, sex with anyone and anything can be accepted... disgusting.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I'm really not impressed with her. Saying no and then communicating that the relationship is damaged and she may want to split is one thing.
> 
> Going off to be a cheating ho and then asking him if he still wanted to after already cheating was really low and cheap.
> 
> ...


Eh, let's just say I've known them for many years.....her for 35 years and him for 20 after she met him. I do not think he is a wuss....I think he loves her and wants his family. And in fairness she admitted it, he did not catch her, and she was quite remorseful. She gave him everything....passwords, he bugged her phone...she lived with zero privacy for a long time. Everything he asked of her she gave him. And at the time they'd been together about 15 years (I can't remember exactly when this happened but it's been some years). She and I talked on the phone knowing he was listening for some time and I accepted that this was necessary for him. We spoke of what had happened and I gave my opinion, which was honest (you know me) but I was ok with him hearing it because I support their marriage if that's what they want.

There are other aspects of their relationship that he handled poorly and he owned them. I really like him and always have.

Eventually he no longer felt the need to watch her and removed the bug.

I'd say that he started a fire and she then poured huge amounts of gas, then dropped a nuke on it. They worked together to put it out. There are still embers that glow sometimes but that's it. Neither has brought up swinging since.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

The Mighty Fred said:


> No, I really don't. I just like the physicality, if you can understand what I mean.
> 
> It's tough even talking about sex with her because she tenses up (I don't know why, we've never had difficulties there). It's vanilla stuff and she likes it that way. As a lark, I suggested we pretend at tantric sex and she really likes it---candles, music, hour or so slow sex. But last night I wanted to buy her lingerie and it was a terse discussion. I'm not into kink. But anything fun? tenses her up.


I think most men would do well to completely stay away from buying their wife underwear. She knows what looks best on her and what fits and what works and what she would be comfortable wearing. having your husband come home with something you'd never wear or choose is like having him tell you he wants you to be a different person.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jlg07 said:


> These answers are due to the fact that you believe in ethical relativism. There ARE folks who believe in absolute ethics, and for folks who believe in this, This IS adultery.


At 57, you can be assured that I understand this point. I don't run around trying to convince those people that they should dabble in any moral decision smelling vaguely of relativism, even if in practice they find most of life's moral decisions come with a significant grey area.

Don't like polyamory? Don't seek out a thruple. Fully informed consenting adults have all the information required to decide for themselves if they find this arrangement moral or not. They don't need anyone else's imprimatur. 

Diana7 et. al. may live their life under whatever moral compass they see fit. I won't try to convince them otherwise. I don't even think they're wrong for doing so even when I disagree with the particulars. What raises my hackles is the constant drumbeat of "my morality is superior, and you are flawed for not agreeing to follow my example". 

/off pulpit


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Only from your world view/religious upbringing. Since ethics are neither objective not universal, ethical non monogamy exists.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Actualy I didnt have a very religious upbringing and its most peoples world view that adultery is wrong and certainly not ethical.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

jlg07 said:


> These answers are due to the fact that you believe in ethical relativism. There ARE folks who believe in absolute ethics, and for folks who believe in this, This IS adultery.


Actually, the fact that it is adultery is not in question. It is objectively adultery. It's the ethical part that is subjective. And of course the fact that a person _believes_ something is absolutely only highlights its subjectivity.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> At 57, you can be assured that I understand this point. I don't run around trying to convince those people that they should dabble in any moral decision smelling vaguely of relativism, even if in practice they find most of life's moral decisions come with a significant grey area.
> 
> Don't like polyamory? Don't seek out a thruple. Fully informed consenting adults have all the information required to decide for themselves if they find this arrangement moral or not. They don't need anyone else's imprimatur.
> 
> ...


Most people on this forum see adultery as very wrong, its so damaging and there are always bad consequences. Its common sense.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

maquiscat said:


> Actually, the fact that it is adultery is not in question. It is objectively adultery. It's the ethical part that is subjective. And of course the fact that a person _believes_ something is absolutely only highlights its subjectivity.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


i would argue that the meaning of adultery falls short when myself and my partners are not legally allowed to marry the way we see fit. 

its like calling a couple's sexual activities "fornication" and extramarital sex, because the state does not recognize their right to get marright. cuz you know, one is white, the other is black, therefore they are not allowed to marry. therefore, extramarital sex. 

i dont go around trying to stop people from getting in monogamous marriages, but there are LOTS of people who actively want to prevent me from being in a non-monogamous one.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Most people on this forum see adultery as very wrong, its so damaging and there are always bad consequences. Its common sense.


The year i was born, support for gay marriage was roughly the same percentage as the number of people today practicing ethical non monogamy. 

Prepare for disappointment in the future.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Actualy I didnt have a very religious upbringing and its most peoples world view that adultery is wrong and certainly not ethical.


One does not need to have a very religious upbringing to have a religious based view.

That said, I think you might be surprised how many people feel the ENM is not right _for them_, as opposed to not right period.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Calling something 'ethical' doesnt make it ethical.


Calling something "unethical" doesn't make it unethical.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Most people on this forum see adultery as very wrong, its so damaging and there are always bad consequences. Its common sense.


Common sense isn't

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> i would argue that the meaning of adultery falls short when myself and my partners are not legally allowed to marry the way we see fit.
> 
> its like calling a couple's sexual activities "fornication" and extramarital sex, because the state does not recognize their right to get marright. cuz you know, one is white, the other is black, therefore they are not allowed to marry. therefore, extramarital sex.
> 
> i dont go around trying to stop people from getting in monogamous marriages, but there are LOTS of people who actively want to prevent me from being in a non-monogamous one.


I will grant that the actual adultery is dependent upon the angle upon which you view it. Certainly from the legal standpoint it is adultery. However from a religious standpoint, it may be adultery by one religion and not by another, because the first does not recognize the marriage through the latter. Don't forget you're talking to a fellow poly here. 

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Eh, let's just say I've known them for many years.....her for 35 years and him for 20 after she met him. I do not think he is a wuss....I think he loves her and wants his family. And in fairness she admitted it, he did not catch her, and she was quite remorseful. She gave him everything....passwords, he bugged her phone...she lived with zero privacy for a long time. Everything he asked of her she gave him. And at the time they'd been together about 15 years (I can't remember exactly when this happened but it's been some years). She and I talked on the phone knowing he was listening for some time and I accepted that this was necessary for him. We spoke of what had happened and I gave my opinion, which was honest (you know me) but I was ok with him hearing it because I support their marriage if that's what they want.
> 
> There are other aspects of their relationship that he handled poorly and he owned them. I really like him and always have.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the data. What she did was simply become a cheater. Nothing special about it and plenty disgusting.

Anyone can cheat and men have zero difficulty finding women to cheat with as apparently opposed to men and women in swinging situations? I have to trust our resident swingers to talk about this one. I've never had trouble attracting partners.

She cheated because she wanted to, not because he suggested something stupid.

He might have damaged his relationship by suggesting something offensive but he was up front and honest and he didn't decide to "open" their marriage behind her back.

I guess it looked like she was rubbing her infidelity in his face because she told him about it and then asked If he still wanted to open their marriage after she already started cheating? I'm guessing from your recent post that what it looked like to me initially wasn't actually what she was doing?

She would have been a vapor trail to me and the idiot she got involved with would have regretted being born. Infidelity is a serious deal breaker for me however.

Really weird case and I'm glad you shared it but I don't believe it illustrates a woman's ability to find a partner easier than a man in a swinging situation.

It just shows a run of the mill cheater which is very easy to do for men or women.

Thanks again.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

maquiscat said:


> I will grant that the actual adultery is dependent upon the angle upon which you view it. Certainly from the legal standpoint it is adultery. However from a religious standpoint, it may be adultery by one religion and not by another, because the first does not recognize the marriage through the latter. *Don't forget you're talking to a fellow poly here. *
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


oh i know, and i appreciate the positive discourse. 

and right along to your point, i am a practicing pagan. pantheist. Ishdri is one of my goddesses. some of her other names are Ishtar, Ishara, and Inana. 
while i grew up with a lot of church going, pantheism is the first religion i learned.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> While we're all on this topic of swinging, I'm really curious about the opinions from the naysayers about "soft swinging" or "same-room" as they call it. This is where you have an evening out with another couple, all retire to the same hotel room, each couple to their own bed, and you have sex with your own spouse, but in full view of the other couple.
> 
> I don't know how swingers actually arrange this because my understanding is that most swingers are in it for the full swap and this is too "vanilla" for them to devote time to. When I read about swinging, I'm always reading about full swap. I see this soft swap mentioned but I never actually have read any testimonials from people who arranged this type of encounter. I suspect that if these soft swaps occur it is between already established friendly couples and they never go into the actual swinging sub-culture.
> 
> Anyways, what are the pitfalls you see?


We used to soft swap quite frequently during our years in the swinging lifestyle. It is a thing and quite a few people practice it.

There is a magic phrase that people use to induce soft swinging. Are you prepared to handle it?

That magic phrase goes like this ————-

—- are you sure you’re ready?

Ok, here it is - drum roll please - “We soft swing.”

Ta dah!! There it is. The key to soft swinging LOL

But sarcasm aside, it really is that easy. All you have to do is say you soft swing and that you don’t full swap. 

Now sure, there may be some people that only want to full swap that might pass you by, but so what? Just move on to the next. 

There’s one thing that swingers (and gays/lesbians and hookers/jons) do much better than than traditional couples and that is express and communicate their wishes as well as their boundaries and limits clearly.

Much of traditional couples sexual dynamics are a matter of social and religious convention and outright assumptions.

People in the alternative lifestyle communicate their sexual interests and boundaries openly and clearly.... because they have to. They cannot rely on social customs and religious programming.

They have to clearly communicate their interests as well as boundaries and deal breakers.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

So the main problem I have with moral relativism is this:
as long as I feel it's ok, then it's ok.
SO, since I feel I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want to, then it is WRONG to have speed limits.
SO, since I feel I should be allowed to take what I want (food, sneakers, whatever), it is WRONG to be imprisoned because stole something.
So, if I think that being a racist is fine, then there is nothing wrong with that. (I don't -- I am making a point).

With no absolutes of right and wrong, there is NO ethics.

That being said, I am certainly NOT the arbiter of anyone's life other than my own. I may disagree with you and your choices, but feel free to live that way as long as you don't try to force it down my throat.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jlg07 said:


> So the main problem I have with moral relativism is this:
> as long as I feel it's ok, then it's ok.
> SO, since I feel I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want to, then it is WRONG to have speed limits.
> SO, since I feel I should be allowed to take what I want (food, sneakers, whatever), it is WRONG to be imprisoned because stole something.
> ...


the bolded is a much more accurate description of what moral relativism actually is than the stuff above it.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> or how about adopting a relativistic view on morality because we stepped out of the brain washing and realized that a lot of stuff that the bible calls immoral or unethical doesnt actually hurt anyone.
> 
> its not the relativistic thinkers that seem to be the kinds of people that decide to exterminate all those pesky tsinganoi because they live differently. nope, that one was quite rigid in his world view.


I guess your hero Thoreau was brainwashed... wasn't he Christian? I suppose he was a Christian and a relativist huh?

The topic at hand is adultery... pretty universally _hurts people_ except maybe that few minutes of satisfaction during the act or thrill for the selfish jerks that partake in it.

Adultery probably leads to _many _homes being broken up and _countless _babies aborted. There isn't anything harmless about it. Hey, why don't you pull some _obscure_ Bible quote now and explain why this obscure, off topic sin is harmless! Adultery is one of the ten commandments (not obscure and ON topic).


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I don’t know much about religion..... I prefer to think about titties. I’m simple like that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> We used to soft swap quite frequently during our years in the swinging lifestyle. It is a thing and quite a few people practice it.
> 
> There is a magic phrase that people use to induce soft swinging. Are you prepared to handle it?
> 
> ...


I'll agree with you about successful couples who share but disagree with a blanket statement about monogamous couples.

I know quite a few of us who talk about everything.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> the bolded is a much more accurate description of what moral relativism actually is than the stuff above it.








Moral Relativism


Moral Relativism - What is the world-wide predisposition to pluralism? What are the basic concepts? Find out here.



www.allaboutphilosophy.org


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I respect honesty. I am friends with a couple in real life who share and they don't broadcast it but they don't hide anything from each other either and are on the same page.

It's funny because they are way more conservative and right leaning in every other way beside sexually to me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*MODERATOR NOTE:- *Please knock off the religious debate, OK? It's off topic and isn't helping.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess your hero Thoreau was brainwashed... wasn't he Christian? I suppose he was a Christian and a relativist huh?
> 
> The topic at hand is adultery... pretty universally _hurts people_ except maybe that few minutes of satisfaction during the act or thrill for the selfish jerks that partake in it.
> 
> Adultery probably leads to _many _homes being broken up and _countless _babies aborted. There isn't anything harmless about it. Hey, why don't you pull some _obscure_ Bible quote now and explain why this obscure, off topic sin is harmless! Adultery is one of the ten commandments (not obscure and ON topic).


Wow... 

You should probably read some of Thoreau's works sometime. You might be surprised.

In the mean time, go ahead and make the claim that relativistic thinkers find sex with anything and everything acceptable. 

Wait, you already did.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'll agree with you about successful couples who share but disagree with a blanket statement about monogamous couples.
> 
> I know quite a few of us who talk about everything.


That is good and healthy and how it should be.

If Fred and his wife were like you and you wife and discussed this stuff openly and honestly, he would not be here wondering about swinging and asking strangers on the Internet about it.

They would either already BE swinging if that was their choice, or they would have discussed it thoroughly and decided against it. 

My point was that traditional couples often rely heavily on assumptions based on social norms and customs and religious doctrines. 

Even within this thread there have been countless assumptions and presumptions and rote dismissal and consternation based on social and religious convention. 

The alternative lifestyles HAVE to discuss their interests and boundaries openly and thoroughly and have to do it as an ongoing and staple part of their lifestyle. Communicating within their lifestyle becomes part and parcel of their life and existence because they cannot rely on tradition, narrative or social or religious custom at all.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

OP. I obviously think you have some stinkin thinkin going on based on your input about your reasoning and marriage.

You have talked yourself into it, I believe, with bizarre torture of logic to try to justify the fact that you just want some strange.

If you do bring this up to your Mrs., (and I advise you to get counseling first) don't bring up the silly reasoning you have given in this thread and just be honest that you want to have sex with other women and you don't mind her having sex with other men.

I do think that you should try to score women on your own, however, instead of having her be part of any bargain to bed the wife of a couple you want to swap with. That is if she goes for this, which I highly doubt.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The Mighty Fred said:


> and my wife has sex with me even when she doesn't want to.


You’re almost making that sound like you consider it a good thing — - but it is NOT!!

This is how sexual aversions develop to where one’s partner does not want to have sex with them AT ALL. 

I will also say that her reluctance to discuss lingerie is also a big red flag flapping in the wind. 

You aren’t there. 

If she is having sex with you when she doesn’t want to (and you are allowing her to do so) 

And she clams up at the mention of lingerie, then you are not ready to begin discussing bringing other people into your sex life.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I appreciate the data. What she did was simply become a cheater. Nothing special about it and plenty disgusting.
> 
> Anyone can cheat and men have zero difficulty finding women to cheat with as apparently opposed to men and women in swinging situations? I have to trust our resident swingers to talk about this one. I've never had trouble attracting partners.
> 
> ...


I suppose, but I would argue that bringing up the idea of ****ing other people is likely going to damage your marital bond. If my partner brought that up I'd never look at him the same and certainly wouldn't feel safe with him; I've given no indication that I'm open to such an arrangement.

I'm sure there is a small number of people that might be immune to that damage even if they weren't open to the idea. In marriedbuthappy's case his wife proposed it as a way for HIM to enjoy himself, which in my view is different. That is something she wished to offer him and as such the risk to the marital bond is much less.

Once your marital bond is broken lots of things are up in the air. If one is inclined to be a cheater this is a great time for that to happen. In this case I do think there was an element of payback, but at the end of the day they both wanted to reconcile and she pretty much did everything anyone here would claim she needed to do so I really don't see the issue. They both worked hard and are both happy now.

As you know I'm no stranger to a broken marital bond, and I had multiple opportunities to cheat which I did not take, so its not like I think it's ok.

My point was to warn OP through people I personally know of the potential dangers here. If he opens up this can to a wide that’s given absolutely no indication she'd be open to such an arrangement he's risking damaging what is, according to him, a happy marriage. Even if this friend of mine hadn't cheated i can tell you the marriage was damaged by him suggesting it. I actually think in a twisted sense her little payback was part of what allowed her to let that resentment go...and make no mistake...she had a lot of resentment. It was his decision as to whether he could get past that and from what I have observed he did.

Let's not pretend that the vast majority of people aren't capable of cheating under the right circumstances. That's why we regularly discuss good boundaries here. If people were immune to it we could all have a free for all with opposite sex interactions.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I suppose, but I would argue that bringing up the idea of ****ing other people is likely going to damage your marital bond. If my partner brought that up I'd never look at him the same and certainly wouldn't feel safe with him; I've given no indication that I'm open to such an arrangement.
> 
> I'm sure there is a small number of people that might be immune to that damage even if they weren't open to the idea. In marriedbuthappy's case his wife proposed it as a way for HIM to enjoy himself, which in my view is different. That is something she wished to offer him and as such the risk to the marital bond is much less.
> 
> ...


Glad it worked for them. She took a much bigger risk cuckolding him than he did talking about swapping but I guess she was right that rubbing her cheating ass in his face would back him down.

I'm absolutely not impressed with her and he is a wuss.

Sorry. He is probably otherwise a great guy that had a really stupid idea but she is disgusting with what she did and the reasoning and they do not have a good balance if he basically said "Good one, you got me and really taught me a lesson."

Having questions, doubts about relationships and sexuality and even moments of stupid lust driven reasoning happen to just about everyone.

He had a time like that and, but instead of getting some on the side, he talked to her about it. She could have just said snap the **** out of it and that it really messed her up. Instead, she ****s around on him to teach him a lesson and then rubs it in his face. She apparently read him right but it reads like a pathetically bad story.

The repercussions are so much deeper and damaging for what she did and the reasons.

Maybe they deserve each other.

Ugh! I'm going to go wash my mind with listerine now..

.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I suppose, but I would argue that bringing up the idea of ****ing other people is likely going to damage your marital bond. If my partner brought that up I'd never look at him the same and certainly wouldn't feel safe with him; I've given no indication that I'm open to such an arrangement.
> 
> I'm sure there is a small number of people that might be immune to that damage even if they weren't open to the idea. In marriedbuthappy's case his wife proposed it as a way for HIM to enjoy himself, which in my view is different. That is something she wished to offer him and as such the risk to the marital bond is much less.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are getting at, but I think it is a little too simplistic and absolutist. 

The devil is always in the details here. 

At 20+ years of marriage, people NEED to discuss their sexual dynamics and interests, desires as well as their boundaries, limits and deal breakers. 

Even if it is to reaffirm their wish and expectation for exclusive monogamy. 

Even though I personally think Fred watched some swinger porn and pulled a wild idea out of his butt — for all we know, his wife is also feeling some cabin fever and having some sexual awakenings now that they are mid life with an adult child. 

My Spidey Senses tell me this probably won’t be the case, but for all we know he may bring this up and she will admit that she’s been wanting to hook up with some younger hunk with abz and a full head of hair that can pound her into next week,, or maybe she’s been wanting to try out getting with another chick or try a gang bang or whatever. 

People are assuming he is just wanting some strange and she is just wanting to bake cookies and sip lemonade from the rocking chairs on the porch. 

Do you know how many 40-50something year old women are offered some sexual liberty and take that ball and run with it like their lives and the king’s treasure depended on it????

I’m not saying whether they should or should not do it. That is up to THEM to decide as a couple. 

But I am saying people change over 20-plus years and after their kids are grown and they have built a lifetime together over decades. 

Women do have sexual yearnings and desire and they don’t all revolve around baking cookies for grandkids and church socials. 

These things need to be discussed. People need to be honest with themselves as well as their partner. 

Even if someone does have some fantasies and wild thoughts and feelings in their head - that doesn’t mean they have to do it. 

But it also doesn’t mean we have to lock ourselves into our own personal bunker and bomb shelter because we fear our own or our partner’s sexuality.

And IMHO, if someone’s marriage is going to be permanently “DAMAGED” because someone brings this up as a topic of discussion, that marriage was already on very very thin ice to begin with or was already damaged by some real event that actually occurred. 

If marriages and people are that delicate that something so basic and so primal as sexual topics outside of absolute monogamy cannot even be brought up, that doesn’t say much for the integrity of the marriage or the people in it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I suppose, but I would argue that bringing up the idea of ****ing other people is likely going to damage your marital bond. If my partner brought that up I'd never look at him the same and certainly wouldn't feel safe with him; I've given no indication that I'm open to such an arrangement.
> 
> I'm sure there is a small number of people that might be immune to that damage even if they weren't open to the idea.
> 
> ...


I’m quoting this section again to reiterate I have concerns of this kind of thinking. 

If a marriage is so tenuous that even mentioning topic would damage the bond, then there are already a lot bigger and more concrete issues taking place in that marriage. 

Now I’m not talking about pressuring or badgering someone and trying to talk them into it for the umpteenth time. 

But we are all sexual beings and we all undergo shifts in our desires and feelings and beliefs over time as we go through different stages and phases in our lives.

What we thought, felt and believed at 25 and what we valued heavily at that age, may be completely different at 50. 

We need to be able to discuss things. And in order to feel truly safe, we need to be able to discuss things without fear of being rejected or ruining the relationship by simply inquiring about someone’s thoughts and feelings on a given topic.

People need to be able to discuss things without fear of hate or abandonment or eviction, even if the answer is no. 

And if you can’t meet someone on their level to talk to them about it without evicting them or judging them beyond redemption, you probably shouldn’t be with them or they probably shouldn’t be with you in the first place. 

If my wife came to me and said she was having desires and weird feelings of wanting to hang bang the entire starting line up of the Lakers. I probably would not be down with that. 

But I believe it’s important for her to know she can at least bring it up and discuss it with me without fear of resentment or eviction, even if it’s not where I want to go in our relationship. 

If you want people to communicate with you, they need to feel safe tondo so with you, even if the answer is not.

- ESPECIALLY if the answer is no.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm taking a break @lifeistooshort

I don't want to hurt feelings and these are your friends and you shared interesting data about this subject.

I triggered big time and I actually feel physically ill.

I meant what I said but I probably shouldn't be posting right now.

Have a good night.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> If you want people to communicate with you, they need to feel safe tondo so with you, even if the answer is not.
> 
> - ESPECIALLY if the answer is no.


Sometimes it’s when the answer is no that communication is at it’s most critical.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I’m going to get a little esoteric for me even but I want to make this point - as human beings we need to be able to talk about ideas, thoughts, feelings, concepts, experiences etc with each other.

An ant can try to mate with another ant and it will fight off other suitors in the process. But it is acting on primal instinct. There is no thought, no collaboration, no forward thinking, no decision making whatsoever going into it.

Shouldn’t we have a higher standard of mindfulness, communication and collaborative decision making than an ant? 

What separates us from the beasts is we can contemplate our thoughts, feelings, ideas, fears, desires etc and them express them and communicate them and arrive at conscious decisions.

If we can do those things, then SHOULDN’T WE? 

Even if the answer and decision is ultimately no, shouldn’t we at least contemplate and discuss options and benefits vs consequences and what will be best for us?

At the end of the day, isn’t that what makes us human and separates us from beasts in the field?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I'm taking a break @lifeistooshort
> 
> I don't want to hurt feelings and these are your friends and you shared interesting data about this subject.
> 
> ...


No worries...we all trigger sometimes. It takes a certain level of self awareness to recognize it and step back so that's to your credit.

We're just not going to see this the same way and that's ok. I think at this point arguing over what you think of my friends is resulting in a thread jack, so let's try to keep it to things that could apply to the OP.

And you're not hurting my feelings so no worries. You're entitled to feel how you feel.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> oh i know, and i appreciate the positive discourse.


Just making sure. It wouldn't be the first time someone mixed up who they were responding to. Lord, knows I've done it enough time.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> It's probably important to note that the problems that do arise in long term ENM relationships are not frequently due to said ENM. Open/poly relationships are just as subceptable to non sex related problems as closed monogamous one.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Truth.

At the end of the day, you are still dealing with human beings and humans have all sorts of challenges and shortcomings and failings. 

When people see a couple having problems or divorcing etc, they naturally try to look for things that are somehow “different” in that couple from themselves. 

It’s threatening to realize that a couple that has the same challenges and issues and shortcomings as you are splitting up. 

But if you can find one difference, you can blame that difference and help ease your fears. 

Now truth be known, that difference may not have had a thing to do with it. But people still find some solace that they won’t be as susceptible.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Glad it worked for them. She took a much bigger risk cuckolding him than he did talking about swapping but I guess she was right that rubbing her cheating ass in his face would back him down.
> 
> I'm absolutely not impressed with her and he is a wuss.
> 
> ...


Don't forget to bleach your eyeballs, too.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Good luck man,
> 
> We will be here when you need advice on your pending divorce, or her affair or whatever else of the million things that can go wrong. But who know maybe you are the one, the one who wins the lotto, or pulls that royal flush. If so say hi to Mrs Unicorn.


Brother, listen to these wise folk.

Few Ms survive, but some few do, but it's very much not good for the mass majority. 

The fact you're questioning now, forecasts you'd be in the majority.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Don't forget to bleach your eyeballs, too.


Thank you! Fortunately I didn't watch the video.
😉


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

I'm guessing this to be another individual that is watching swinging videos and envision the same for themselves. I think in reality(for many) the wife in a swinging situation is getting all the play. The husband is the wallflower wondering WTH poor choice he has made as he is left watching. Best of luck.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I understand what you are getting at, but I think it is a little too simplistic and absolutist.
> 
> The devil is always in the details here.
> 
> ...


You have a very strange idea about what women who are actually faithful and who want to remain faithful are actually like. I mean baking cookies and sitting on rocking chairs? Really?

I dont agree that its necessary to have some sort of discussion after many years to see if both faithful partners still want to stay faithful or not, because most of us already KNOW that because we live with our spouse day by day and we communicate and know what they are like and what makes them tick. We know what their character is like and whether they have integrity. 

I also disagree that a marriage being damaged by one spouse proposing adultery was already on thin ice. Its a massive thing when one says well ok I want to have sex with another person and break my marriage vows, its amost certainly going to damage the trust and respect enormously.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> You have a very strange idea about what women who are actually faithful and who want to remain faithful are actually like. I mean baking cookies and sitting on rocking chairs? Really?
> 
> I dont agree that its necessary to have some sort of discussion after many years to see if both faithful partners still want to stay faithful or not, because most of us already KNOW that because we live with our spouse day by day and we communicate and know what they are like and what makes them tick. We know what their character is like and whether they have integrity.
> 
> I also disagree that a marriage being damaged by one spouse proposing adultery was already on thin ice. Its a massive thing when one says well ok I want to have sex with another person and break my marriage vows, its amost certainly going to damage the trust and respect enormously.


if a simple discussion is all it takes to end the marriage, then it was pretty fragile to begin with. 

after all, a simple discussion/suggestion was all it took to kill it.

or maybe i just have wildly different ideas about what the word "commitment" means. that could be the case...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> if a simple discussion is all it takes to end the marriage, then it was pretty fragile to begin with.
> 
> after all, a simple discussion/suggestion was all it took to kill it.
> 
> or maybe i just have wildly different ideas about what the word "commitment" means. that could be the case...


It's one spouse wanting to committ adultery, a breaking of the marriage vows, a betrayal of all that the marriage has been up till now. Its not just a 'simple dicussion' as in where will we be going on holiday or what restaurant will we eat at. So no, it would not be a fragile marriage if this proposal rocked it, it would be a strong faithful marriage up till then anyway. For many married couples, the vast majority I would say, faithfulness is a vital part of their marriage and many make promises to be faithful in their vows. It would always rock a spouse who was faithful and had good moral values, especially if they thought up till then that their spouse did as well.
Proposing adultery or saying they want to committ adultery is almost as bad as actually doing it.

If a man I was with told me he wanted to have sex with other women my respect for him would go from 100 to zero, as would my trust.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

here we go again with the morality of it...

look, people do this stuff. it happens. get used to it. since it DOES happen, it is MUCH better to just talk about it rather than stew on it. unless it really is just a fleeting thought and will go away. unfortunately, that doesnt always happen. 

people stew on things.

i would say its better to have the discussion.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

A lot of people seem to think that a feeling says something about their worth. It really doesn't. 

I for one, would much rather feel safe discussing anything with my spouse than feel like there are some topics that are so taboo i can't even talk about them. 

Because ultimately, we don't sleep with our spouses. We sleep next to them. The only person we sleep with is ourselves. 

If you don't believe that, try judging yourself for a feeling or a thought. 

See how well you sleep.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> I’m quoting this section again to reiterate I have concerns of this kind of thinking.
> 
> If a marriage is so tenuous that even mentioning topic would damage the bond, then there are already a lot bigger and more concrete issues taking place in that marriage.
> 
> ...



You make a good point, and I wanted to think about this before I responded.

This is complicated because there are two parties involved, and it's important that things be balanced as much as possible so that they both feel as safe as possible. So one should be careful that their feeling of safety in communicating certain thoughts to their spouse doesn't actually make their spouse feel a lot less safe.

Imagine that a woman developed a desire for a bigger penis. Should she approach her husband about this? By your argument, and it definitely has merit, the answer is yes. But he may feel a lot less safe and secure in the relationship after that, so it may not justify her wanting to communicate that she wants other men so she can have a bigger penis even if he says no.

There are just some things you don't say to your spouse because the damage it can cause is more then the communication benefit. This line is of course different for different people, but one has to be careful.

Once you open your mouth you can't take it back.

So of course there are many, many things that one can and should communicate. Crazier sex together? Absolutely! More sex? Absolutely! What does and doesn't work sexually? Absolutely?

Things that could be damaging to the security of one of the parties involved? Not so much. That's what could happen here, IMHO.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

One other thought on this.
OP, YOU should know your wife. Is she the type of person who views sex as just a physical thing and doesn't have to be emotionally involved(just recreation?)? Has she had one nights stands before meeting you? Did she experiment a lot before meeting you?
Is she the type who openly talks to you about sex and things she likes and fantasizes about? Has she been receptive to fantasies that YOU have talked to her about?

If NOT, I would be VERY HESITANT to bring this topic up with her, at least without having laid some sort of foundation with her about sexual communications and having those sexual communications reach a pretty advanced degree.

If YES, then you could bring this up as just another fantasy and she what her reaction is.

I am betting that she is in the "IS NOT" category, and I do think you need to listen, especially to the women, about what her possible reaction could be to you bringing this up ("I'm not enough for him", "he doesn't find me attractive", "he just wants the freedom to go have sex with other women", "I can't trust him -- he's going to have an affair", etc.).

IF she is in the "IS NOT" category, do you REALLY want to drop this grenade in the middle of your life?




The Mighty Fred said:


> 'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.


MOST men do, most who are married do NOT have to move that beyond the fantasy stage. You honestly just sound like you are bored and want a bit of different activity. You know that you CAN do that within the bounds of your marriage vows, yes?



> I don't have any unusual fetishes (other than the Typical American FFM one) and my wife has sex with me even when she doesn't want to.
> 
> I just feel stifled; that sexual activity can be more than just what we're doing.


What if HER desire is MMF? How would YOU feel about that if she wanted to ACTUALLY do that? How would YOU feel?

If sexual activity is more that what you are doing, you BOTH need to think about how to do more variety without blowing up your marriage. Oral, different positions, toys, role-play, dress-up, sensual massages, etc. --- there are a TON of ways to change it up without imploding your marriage.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> It's one spouse wanting to committ adultery, a breaking of the marriage vows, a betrayal of all that the marriage has been up till now. Its not just a 'simple dicussion' as in where will we be going on holiday or what restaurant will we eat at. So no, it would not be a fragile marriage if this proposal rocked it, it would be a strong faithful marriage up till then anyway. For many married couples, the vast majority I would say, faithfulness is a vital part of their marriage and many make promises to be faithful in their vows. It would always rock a spouse who was faithful and had good moral values, especially if they thought up till then that their spouse did as well.
> Proposing adultery or saying they want to committ adultery is almost as bad as actually doing it.
> 
> If a man I was with told me he wanted to have sex with other women my respect for him would go from 100 to zero, as would my trust.


I think you have different types of perspectives at play here. I believe the vast majority of people have thoughts of sex outside marriage, proposing the idea is something different. In the OP's case the fact that he doesn't really have any idea how his wife would respond to the topic even being discussed speaks volumes. I don't consider an honest and open discussion of thoughts/desires to be a soul crushing marriage ending thing. But that comes from my perspective. 

For a person like you, I can understand that this would something so outside anything you would ever consider that your husband bringing it up would be shocking. He should know your thoughts on the idea without asking, so him even asking would be like saying "I know you would never approve but I want you to let me have sex with someone else anyway." Which would be disrespectful and I would understand you having the reaction you describe.

For some people sex is not sacred. For us, having been involved in "the lifestyle" in the past, sex is kind of a hobby in a way. It is something we work on and we have certainly pushed boundaries over time. We stopped participating any any lifestyle activities not because we had any issues arising from it, we just decided we didn't have the desire to do it anymore. Our way of going about things was a bit tedious and got exhausting really. 

In the OP's case he would seem to be in a dangerous position, I think he knows his wife won't respond too positively but he is itching for some kind of alternative excitement. Even if his wife agrees to try it out but is really only doing it for him, you have big problems. First the overall long term response from her will be negative, second the couples with a wife just taking one for the team are easy to spot and actively avoided by most experienced people.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

One of the things I'm seeing here, and this is a recurring problem, is the imposition of one's definition of faithfulness and what the vows taken are. I don't go around telling posters what vows they took, or what their definition of faithfulness is. Yet we have plenty of others who will. There is a difference between saying, "your spouse might take it as a breech of faithfulness" and "you are no longer being faithful." The former addresses a possibility, and the later claims a definitive. Same goes for the vows. Unless you were at the ceremony where the vows were taken, don't presume. I've made it no secret that I have a legal wife and an additional wife and husband not legally recognized. I have not violated a single vow I have taken and I challenge anyone to show me where I have. Credit to those who have worded their point in the context of many or most. That's fine, as long as that doesn't assume what a specific individual feels or does/did.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> You make a good point, and I wanted to think about this before I responded.
> 
> This is complicated because there are two parties involved, and it's important that things be balanced as much as possible so that they both feel as safe as possible. So one should be careful that their feeling of safety in communicating certain thoughts to their spouse doesn't actually make their spouse feel a lot less safe.
> 
> ...


With these types of issues I firmly believe that the only way it will work is if you are pretty confident know the answer to the question you are going to ask, or at least the response isn't going to be firmly negative. If your relationship isn't close enough that you can accurately predict your spouses response to most things it's probably not for you.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

maybe we should start a thread on ethical non-monogamy?

not to discuss the merits, but rather discuss what typically works, and what doesnt, in the various forms of ethical non-monogamy?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> With these types of issues I firmly believe that the only way it will work is if you are pretty confident know the answer to the question you are going to ask, or at least the response isn't going to be firmly negative. If your relationship isn't close enough that you can accurately predict your spouses response to most things it's probably not for you.


That is a great point and probably the key here.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jlg07 said:


> One other thought on this.
> OP, YOU should know your wife. Is she the type of person who views sex as just a physical thing and doesn't have to be emotionally involved(just recreation?)? Has she had one nights stands before meeting you? Did she experiment a lot before meeting you?
> Is she the type who openly talks to you about sex and things she likes and fantasizes about? Has she been receptive to fantasies that YOU have talked to her about?
> 
> ...



This. A lot of men get blinded by the idea of other women, so they fail to consider all of the things their wife might want.

This happened to one of the two couples I spoke of. They were open swingers, but while he was in it for strange with no emotion she got attached to someone (filled emotional holes she had with her hb).

He went into a rage because he thought he could insist that she got exactly what he did out of it, but she was wired differently than him. Once that can was opened he couldn't control that.

They divorced and she's several years on with the guy she connected with and the now ex hb is a mess. I'm sure if you asked him if the strange was worth it he'd say no.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> One of the things I'm seeing here, and this is a recurring problem, is the imposition of one's definition of faithfulness and what the vows taken are. I don't go around telling posters what vows they took, or what their definition of faithfulness is. Yet we have plenty of others who will. There is a difference between saying, "your spouse might take it as a breech of faithfulness" and "you are no longer being faithful." The former addresses a possibility, and the later claims a definitive. Same goes for the vows. Unless you were at the ceremony where the vows were taken, don't presume. I've made it no secret that I have a legal wife and an additional wife and husband not legally recognized. I have not violated a single vow I have taken and I challenge anyone to show me where I have. Credit to those who have worded their point in the context of many or most. That's fine, as long as that doesn't assume what a specific individual feels or does/did.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


I think when most people are talking about vows, they are thinking of the standard boilerplate church wedding vows, to have and to hold, in sickness and health yada yada. 

We wrote our own vows and did not get married in a church. Our vows were basically, we are a team, we are in this together, your problems are my problems, and we promise to always be open and honest. Traditional vows have the obey line, that was not going to fly for my wife.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> here we go again with the morality of it...
> 
> look, people do this stuff. it happens. get used to it. since it DOES happen, it is MUCH better to just talk about it rather than stew on it. unless it really is just a fleeting thought and will go away. unfortunately, that doesnt always happen.
> 
> ...


yes a few people do it, but when you have a faithful marriage its madness to tell your faithful spouse that you want to sleep around with other women/men. Fastest way to a divorce.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think when most people are talking about vows, they are thinking of the standard boilerplate church wedding vows, to have and to hold, in sickness and health yada yada.
> 
> We wrote our own vows and did not get married in a church. Our vows were basically, we are a team, we are in this together, your problems are my problems, and we promise to always be open and honest. Traditional vows have the obey line, that was not going to fly for my wife.


We didnt get married in a church either but we understood that faithfulness is what marriage is all about.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> This. A lot of men get blinded by the idea of other women, so they fail to consider all of the things their wife might want.
> 
> *(filled emotional holes she had with her hb).*


Yep that there is a huge risk factor, Couples getting into swinging would be smart to start out by finding an experienced couple to have as mentors. The first rule is you have a long talk about boundaries and what situations initiate a full stop. A LOT of overly eager couples just jump right in without discussing all possibilities and thinking long and hard about after. The outcome there is often not good.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> We didnt get married in a church either but we understood that faithfulness is what marriage is all about.


IMO Faithfulness if defined as only having sex with each other is very far from being all that marriage is about. Marriage is much deeper than sex related issues.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

This all just hurts. Really hurts.

I don't know where to start. I don't believe I'm having any midlife crisis here. I just see that our marriage situation will change once the child is on his own. We used to be very open about sex. Now we're not: in a way, it's her way only.

I dated many women before marriage in my mid-30s. I enjoy women not just physically.

I don't know what it meant by "strange." I'm pretty disgusted by anonymous sex (and especially disgusted by what appears to be young women in their 20s looking very much for many, many anonymous sexual encounters---as a man, if I were 20-30, I would likely be in their lines---and what's amazing and probably deleterious is that there are women willing to stand in line to be an anonymous F for a man and to me this is degrading to them. Men are different than women with attachment). I'm talking about FWB. Had a good one of these before marriage and it went amicably. I'm athletic and in good shape and I guess physical stuff is what I see sex as, and don't comprehend all the emotional stuff here that's connected to it. Perhaps because our marriage is so stable. . . but is the arrangement based on me suppressing myself in different ways? (not necessarily or only sex) I don't consider myself at all beta. Our situation is a negotiation that I'd like to change a bit.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> IMO Faithfulness if defined as only having sex with each other is very far from being all that marriage is about. Marriage is much deeper than sex related issues.


Its a massive part of it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

The Mighty Fred said:


> This all just hurts. Really hurts.
> 
> I don't know where to start. I don't believe I'm having any midlife crisis here. I just see that our marriage situation will change once the child is on his own. We used to be very open about sex. Now we're not: in a way, it's her way only.
> 
> ...


The best advice I can give you is to talk to your wife about it. She may or may not be up for playing with another person. But even if she isn't, she might be willing to try new things with you. The role playing as strangers thing can be fun. And then there are various kinks. I know you said you don't really have any besides the idea of a threesome, but that doesn't necessarily mean you won't enjoy some of the stuff that you haven't tried yet. 

I currently have four partners. I have had threesomes with two of them. I also still date others from time to time. My wife currently has two partners, and also dates others from time to time. 

It CAN work, just be willing to accept no for an answer, and be willing to work through everything WITH your wife. What you do is between you and her. 

If she decides that she wants to try it, being willing to do for her what she wants will probably go a long way. 

But, and this is the most important thing, talk it to death before you actually _do_ anything. 

_EVERYTHING_ should be discussed long before taking any actions. And then talked about some more. And then more.

And then discuss it some more.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The Mighty Fred said:


> This all just hurts. Really hurts.
> 
> I don't know where to start. I don't believe I'm having any midlife crisis here. I just see that our marriage situation will change once the child is on his own. We used to be very open about sex. Now we're not: in a way, it's her way only.
> 
> ...


Being that you claim to have a good marriage, and that you have been married for many years, you SHOULD have a very very good idea of what your wife would say and feel about you wanting to have sex with other women. I know what my husband of 15 years would say and he me.
So if for example you are almost certain that your wife wants to remain faithful and wants you to as well, would you risk destroying the family for sex with random women? Or would you stay faithful to the marriage and put your wife and children first? Is casual sex worth you loosing so much? Is loosing your wifes respect and trust ok with you?

Even by asking you are risking so much.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Its a massive part of it.


I would say from my perspective that sex is maybe 20% of what marriage is really all about.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> maybe we should start a thread on ethical non-monogamy?
> 
> not to discuss the merits, but rather discuss what typically works, and what doesnt, in the various forms of ethical non-monogamy?


I won't say no to this.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think when most people are talking about vows, they are thinking of the standard boilerplate church wedding vows, to have and to hold, in sickness and health yada yada.
> 
> We wrote our own vows and did not get married in a church. Our vows were basically, we are a team, we are in this together, your problems are my problems, and we promise to always be open and honest. Traditional vows have the obey line, that was not going to fly for my wife.


And this is becoming more and more common. It can't be assumed anymore what vows a couple have taken or how they view faithfulness. Just look at the wide range of opinions on whether or not porn, or even just looking at someone else is a violation of trust or not. 

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

[QUOTE


The Mighty Fred said:


> This all just hurts. Really hurts.
> 
> I don't know where to start. I don't believe I'm having any midlife crisis here. I just see that our marriage situation will change once the child is on his own. We used to be very open about sex. Now we're not: in a way, it's her way only.
> 
> ...


So you are disgusted by anonymous sex but you want to share your wife... So you are hoping she'll have an emotional connection with the other guy?

Then a few sentences later you see sex as a physical stuff.

You are all over the map.

Your whole post makes me sad. You have a wonderful life by your accounts but you feel something is missing and it must be sexual. This is almost textbook definition of midlife crisis. I'd highly recommend you try counseling.

In addition we'll be here when your marriage blows up. Maybe you do just need something else. but I'd check out some mid life crisis questionnaires before blowing up my whole life.

Also there are ways to approach opening up sexually with your wife it doesn't have to be exactly as it is now or totally wide open.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

*Also how about everyone stop the major thread jack going on. Open the other thread already*


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> And this is becoming more and more common. It can't be assumed anymore what vows a couple have taken or how they view faithfulness. Just look at the wide range of opinions on whether or not porn, or even just looking at someone else is a violation of trust or not.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Exactly, I've been told is very inappropriate to go out to dinner alone with one of my wife's friends. Sometimes a dinner is just a dinner, my wife would never even think that it was something she should worry about but according to some people she should be seriously concerned and not let me leave the house alone ever again.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Anastasia6 said:


> *Also how about everyone stop the major thread jack going on. Open the other thread already*


Done. 

It's in general.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

OP, "strange" in this context means not your wife, so in that sense it's new and different.

Look, you've seen the responses here and yet based on your last post you don't give any indication that you've thought about much beyond potential sex with other women. 

I get a general sense of me me me from you.

Go ahead and risk wrecking what you have for the possibility of sex with other women. Maybe it will work out fine in that she either says ok or she says no but there's no damage. And maybe she'll say ok and everything will go just as planned.....you'll get to bang different women and your wife will bang other men and you'llbe ok with that (you've already said you don't know how you'd feel about that but I'm not surprised since you haven't thought much beyond banging other women) and hopefully won't find one she prefers to you. That is your choice to take that risk.

Based on the emotional disconnect you seem to have I'd say there's a decent chance she'll find a guy a bit more open....who knows where that will end up. That's pretty much what happened with my friend who is now divorced and with said other guy.

Whatever happens I hope it turns out to be worth it.

Good luck.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The Mighty Fred said:


> This all just hurts. Really hurts.
> 
> I don't know where to start. I don't believe I'm having any midlife crisis here. I just see that our marriage situation will change once the child is on his own. We used to be very open about sex. Now we're not: in a way, it's her way only.
> 
> ...


You aren't going to like my response to this information.

Does your wife know that you don't see sex as an emotional connection and just something physical?

Wow, so you say you want a FWB. Not sure that's really what "swinging" is about. I believe swinging is something you do _with_ your partner.

You just want to have a FWB arrangement!!! 

I feel sorry for your wife. I'm so glad I'm not her. 

I'm currently single and sometimes reading these threads makes me SO GLAD I'm not in a relationship right now because I am spared crap like this.

It would be a hard no from me. Husband wants a FWB? Excellent. I'd let him go (divorce) so he could pursue that.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Married people who are actually having sex say stuff like this. 🙄

When you're in a sexless marriage with someone who refuses to communicate, the topic is significantly magnified. 



happyhusband0005 said:


> I would say from my perspective that sex is maybe 20% of what marriage is really all about.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Sorry, OP, I'm confused. You say anonymous sex disgusts you, but also say that you don't get the emotional attachments to sex and that it's just a physical thing for you. Those two tenets would seem to be somewhat contradictory....

And, you say you're disgusted by anonymous sex, but you want to get into swinging? That would seem to be a somewhat...odd....stance, as well.

It sounds more like what you're looking for is an open marriage. But you should also understand that if the marriage is open, your wife will also have the option of finding a FWB for herself. 

Unless you envision some scheme where only you get to play around? 

I think a little clarity is in order here, OP. At least be very clear about what you want before you even think to bring this topic up to your wife.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Married people who are actually having sex say stuff like this. 🙄
> 
> When you're in a sexless marriage with someone who refuses to communicate, the topic is significantly magnified.


I was actually thinking this after I wrote that. If there are problems around sex it becomes a much bigger issue, just like any potential issue. If it's a problem it becomes a bigger deal.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> You make a good point, and I wanted to think about this before I responded.
> 
> This is complicated because there are two parties involved, and it's important that things be balanced as much as possible so that they both feel as safe as possible. So one should be careful that their feeling of safety in communicating certain thoughts to their spouse doesn't actually make their spouse feel a lot less safe.
> 
> ...


As someone else said in another post in this thread - there is a lot of nuance in the world and this is one of those areas that has a lot of nuance and the devil in is the details and how one approaches a subject like this as critical as the topic it’self. 

I doubt if any successful swingers have one day out of the blue walked up to their partner and blunted out, “I want to screw other people.” Or “I want to screw someone with a bigger Johnson/boobs/butt whatever”. 

Ideally, there would already be a long term history of healthy communication and compassionate and respectful dialogue. 

If there’s not already a history of effective communication and understanding of each other’s basic needs and temperaments and value system, this kind of topic is probably NOT the place to start. 

My experience and background is in swinging together as a couple, NOT open marriage where one or both are trying to meet needs not being met in the marriage. 

But I believe in general, that the more sensitive and difficult the topic, the need for open mindedness and compassionate communication is probably more important. 

I kind of liken it to discussing drinking with teens. If one takes the approach of, “do not even mention the word ‘drinking’ around me or you will no longer be my child!” .... that child is more likely to be the one exploring out on a country road in the middle of the night with questionable and unsavory people vs having a more open and factual dialogue that can foster more healthy and responsible decision making. 

Even though you don’t want your child to drink - would you tell your kid you will no longer accept or honor them if they even bring up the topic of alcohol to you? 

Or would you rather your child feel safe and confident enough your relationship that they will feel ok in approaching you with difficult topics even if they know you may not give your blessings to it? 

To use your example of the horse schlong, I am just an ordinary, average guy if you what I mean. And even though I have the same fears, concerns and insecurities as every other man, I would want my wife to have the confidence in me and confidence in our relationship that she would be willing to address and discuss the issue. 

Together we could discuss the pros and cons and discuss options and brainstorm and see if we could collaboratively find a way that she could fulfill her fantasies while not distressing me or inflicting any kind of harm to our relationship. 

Like I said yesterday, I think if posing a theoretical or conceptual question is going to irreparably ‘damage’ a relationship- then that relationship is not healthy or functional in the first place. 

And if that relationship is that delicate and fragile - then basically anything could pose constant danger and threat and it would just be a matter of time until the relationship dies anyway. 

People having feelings, attractions, yearnings, fantasies, ideas etc outside of their of their official partner is normal and healthy. It means we are human and it means we are alive. It is universal. We all have then. Even Diana LOL 😆 

It’s how we deal with those feelings and ideas that determine good or bad. 

To say that one cannot even bring up those topics in a marriage is like saying you can’t ever mention bills or yard work or job issues or aches and pains or housekeeping. 

It’s not a healthy, functional relationship if it can’t be mentioned.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I would say from my perspective that sex is maybe 20% of what marriage is really all about.


Still very important, and most agree going by the countless posts we have here. Its the closet physically and emotionally 2 people can get. Thats why this intimacy is for the married couple.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> As someone else said in another post in this thread - there is a lot of nuance in the world and this is one of those areas that has a lot of nuance and the devil in is the details and how one approaches a subject like this as critical as the topic it’self.
> 
> I doubt if any successful swingers have one day out of the blue walked up to their partner and blunted out, “I want to screw other people.” Or “I want to screw someone with a bigger Johnson/boobs/butt whatever”.
> 
> ...


Don't speak for me. I don't have fantasies or yearnings outside my marriage. Call me unimaginative or hyper focused on my spouse. Either way not everyone has this or does this. 

And in a relationship you can bring up anything you want but you can't control how the other person responds. Someone who loves you could still have their world destroyed because you can't unhear things. sure it may not destroy the relationship but everyone is going to react to what is said to them and they can't always control how they feel.

I know it would probably change my view of my husband forever if he wanted to sleep with another man. No matter how much I love him and no matter how great our relationship is.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Exactly, I've been told is very inappropriate to go out to dinner alone with one of my wife's friends. Sometimes a dinner is just a dinner, my wife would never even think that it was something she should worry about but according to some people she should be seriously concerned and not let me leave the house alone ever again.


Why would you want to go out for dinner alone with one of your wife's friends?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Why would you want to go out for dinner alone with one of your wife's friends?


Why wouldn't you, if there is nothing untowards going on? Are you making the claim that one can't be friendly with a spouse's friend? 

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Without getting religious let me say there is something horribly sad about this. My theory here is Mighty Fred got this stupid idea from watching too much porn. In fact, he watched so much over the years that he is almost convinced that sex is only sex and means nothing. Mrs. MF however likely doesn't feel this way and I think him raising such an outlandish desire will do nothing more than torpedo the marriage. I know I'd be killed if my wife walked in one day and said "gee honey I'd like us to try sex with others". There's no way to put a bow on that!

Mighty Fred should of adopted some healthier hobbies than porn.... 

Call this ethical non-monogamy or whatever term you like- it's still sad and disgusting. MightyFred should be taking his grandkids to the playground and not trying to bang someone else's grandma.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Don't speak for me. I don't have fantasies or yearnings outside my marriage. Call me unimaginative or hyper focused on my spouse. Either way not everyone has this or does this.
> 
> And in a relationship you can bring up anything you want but you can't control how the other person responds. Someone who loves you could still have their world destroyed because you can unhear things. sure it may not destroy the relationship but everyone is going to react to what is said to them and they can't always control how they feel.
> 
> I know it would probably change my view of my husband forever if he wanted to sleep with another man. No matter how much I love him and no matter how great our relationship is.


I understand but it still doesn’t change my POV.

If your H wants to get with other men, he wants to get with other men whether he tells you about it or not. It’s still who and what he is. 

Again, this is all very nuanced and fluid and the devil is in a million minute details. 

It still comes down to communication.

If you and your H have at least functional communication, he would hopefully realize that if he were to tell you about having homosexual feelings that you would lose all respect and honor for him, then he would probably try to hide that part of himself from you forever. 

Maybe that can be a good, maybe it can be a bad thing - the devil is in the details. 

Maybe he’d keep those thoughts and feelings to himself and not do anything about it and y’all live out the rest of your days in peace and tranquillity.

Maybe he starts toe-tapping in the bathroom stall at the back of the city park and gets arrested. 

He needs to know you as well and from there he can decide if it is worth sharing that with you or not. 

If he just likes to take a peek at gay porn now and then and keep it to himself, no harm no foul.

But it may also be a big enough part of him that he can no longer live a lie and decide he has to tell you and is willing to live with the fallout. 

These things all carry risk. We DO take a risk in discussing these things with our partner.

We also take a risk in NOT discussing it. 

I personally would rather be aware of the reality of who I share a home and family with even I don’t like it. 

I can then at least make an informed decisions on what I should do.

If you’d rather live in ignorance of your reality, that’s your choice.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> MightyFred should be taking his grandkids to the playground and not trying to bang someone else's grandma.


Aw screw that!!

I’m about Fred’s age and I am going to fight the good fight until they start filling the dirt back into my grave.

If I have a breath of life left in me, I’m going to try to make someone breathless and I don’t mean by trying to resuscitate me LOL

In fact, if I gasp and keel over dead in the middle of the downstroke, I will consider that a life well lived and an honorable death.

If you want to retire your balls to basement storage shelf so you can push grandkids in the swing, be my guest. 

But if the Mrs still wants to live a life, send her over and I’ll send her back to you with a smile 😊

Fred ain’t dead. Don’t try to get him to sign his death certificate yet.

Whether he decides to approach his wife about this is his call.

Whether they decide to give it a whirl or not is their decision as a couple.

But if a man still wants to live his life with love and passion, step out of his way and don’t try to get him to put his balls in the jar with yours.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Aw screw that!!
> 
> I’m about Fred’s age and I am going to fight the good fight until they start filling the dirt back into my grave.
> 
> ...


LOL. I never said Weak Fred had to put his balls in storage... just that he doesn't need to bang someone else's grandma to be happy- big difference.

Kids are wonderful- they're what keep an old man- young! Personally, I love the fresh air and biking/running kids to the playground. Knowing/loving/supporting/enjoying the grand kids is a thousand times more beneficial than picking up skanky old ladies to bone- lol! But- to each his own I guess.

EDITED: I meant in no way to defame older women i.e. "skanky old ladies". There are many beautiful old ladies out there. However, any lady that wants meaningless, physical sex with Fred- I stand behind my characterization of them as a "skanky old lady".


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Why would you want to go out for dinner alone with one of your wife's friends?


Because we had a school building committee that we served on together and it went from 5-9 and we were hungry.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> We didnt get married in a church either but we understood that faithfulness is what marriage is all about.


FOR YOU...other people are allowed to define THEIR marriages the way THEY want to - you don't get to define it for THEM.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> FOR YOU...other people are allowed to define THEIR marriages the way THEY want to - you don't get to define it for THEM.


And their faithfulness as well.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Why can’t the swingers just not marry versus let’s all redefine marriage. Marriage is meant to be monogamous...oh well. I’m sure people will be marrying their pets soon and why shouldn’t they if we continue to redefine what marriage is or define what marriage is “to me”.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If you have to censor what you _talk_ about with your spouse (not even proposing doing something), then you are _already living a lie_. People say that being lied to about cheating, for example, is worse than the act itself, and withholding relevant information is also lying. IMO, if you have to censor who you are with your spouse, then the marriage isn't worth keeping anyway. If they are so narrow minded and judgmental that even a potential discussion messes them up, then they must be damaged already.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> Why can’t the swingers just not marry versus let’s all redefine marriage. Marriage is meant to be monogamous...oh well. I’m sure people will be marrying their pets soon and why shouldn’t they if we continue to redefine what marriage is or define what marriage is “to me”.


 <sigh> Not that morally bankrupt nonsense again, from a narrow-minded religious perspective. Most people aren't swingers when they marry. Just as cheaters aren't cheaters when they marry. Basically, _no one should marry because they might change someday!_


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> And their faithfulness as well.


Adultery isnt faithfulness.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> If you have to censor what you _talk_ about with your spouse (not even proposing doing something), then you are _already living a lie_. People say that being lied to about cheating, for example, is worse than the act itself, and withholding relevant information is also lying. IMO, if you have to censor who you are with your spouse, then the marriage isn't worth keeping anyway. If they are so narrow minded and judgmental that even a potential discussion messes them up, then they must be damaged already.


You are so very very wrong. This isnt about a 'general discussion' its about him wanting to commit adultery with other women. Its also not about being 'messed up', but valuing faithfulness and committment. Calling faithfulness and wanting faithfulness in our spouse as being 'narrow minded' means you are calling the majority of married people narrow minded. Its not being judgemental not to want our spouse to sleep around with other people, it being sensible and wanting the best for our marriage.

Its not all about what WE think and what WE want in marriage but about treating our spouse with love and respect. Asking them if they are ok with them sleeping around isnt being loving or respectful. We are talking about bringing others into the marriage here, about adultery, not a husband asking his wife to wear sexy underwear.

Even if I ever wanted to have sex with someone else there is no way that I would ever do it because I value and respect my husband and my marriage far far too much to want another person to come between us and ruin the intimacy we have as husband and wife. When you have a great spouse and strong marriage why would you do something so stupid? When you have the best you dont need the rest. Risking hurting others and blowing up other peoples lives for pure selfishness on the part of the one who wants to committ adultery shows how little they value those they claim to love.

Anyone with any common sense can tell by what the op has said that his wife is going to be deeply hurt by him telling her he wants to sleep with other women and so would most spouses and rightly so. Still its his choice, sleeping around or his family. I just hope he has the common decency to end the marriage first before he starts cheating on her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Aw screw that!!
> 
> I’m about Fred’s age and I am going to fight the good fight until they start filling the dirt back into my grave.
> 
> ...


Having sex with your wife isnt 'putting your balls into storage'. No need to be offensive either referring to his wife, that was uncalled for. As for grandkids, wow what a blessing they are and we LOVE taking ours to the park. Life isnt ALL about what we want in sex, about being selfish, there are so many other joys as well.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> <sigh> Not that morally bankrupt nonsense again, from a narrow-minded religious perspective. Most people aren't swingers when they marry. Just as cheaters aren't cheaters when they marry. Basically, _no one should marry because they might change someday!_


That's fine but is it fair for Mighty Fred to decide he needs something new in his marriage? Isn't that the ultimate bait and switch?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Why can’t the swingers just not marry versus let’s all redefine marriage. Marriage is meant to be monogamous...oh well. I’m sure people will be marrying their pets soon and why shouldn’t they if we continue to redefine what marriage is or define what marriage is “to me”.


Marriage is not meant to be any one things. There is a culture in Asia that has been practicing polyandry for generations. An anthropologist did a TED talk on them. Marriage has been practiced in many ways over the millennium of human history. 

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Adultery isnt faithfulness.


You don't get to define that for me and my spouses. That is the whole point. You get to define what faithfulness is for you, and then any spouse has to live up to it. I define it for me. And my spouses define it for themselves. So far, I have not been unfaithful to any of my spouses. You are challenged to prove otherwise.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. C and I are absolutely against it.

Want to know how I'm so sure?

We actually have talked about this subject and many others.

We even got into exploring feelings about various details concerning sexuality.

I could go for her playing lightly with another woman without feeling my territory invaded.
Her feelings are only safe with me being totally hers. 
She needs to be the only person I swing with. She needs to be Jane to my Tarzan.

We will never explore this however, because of our religious beliefs but we did discuss it openly and at length.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> You don't get to define that for me and my spouses. That is the whole point. You get to define what faithfulness is for you, and then any spouse has to live up to it. I define it for me. And my spouses define it for themselves. So far, I have not been unfaithful to any of my spouses. You are challenged to prove otherwise.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


You have still committed adultery many times. There are always bad consequences to that sooner or later.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. C and I are absolutely against it.
> 
> Want to know how I'm so sure?
> 
> ...


Must admit that I wouldnt have wanted it or thought it was ok even before I was a Christian, thats probably largely due to having had an amazing mum and her positive life values that she believed and lived. When you are bought up by a parent or parents who live good lives and have strong values and beliefs about marriage and how we live our lives, it definitely rubs off on you.
She had a terrible chilhood as well, spent most of it in a very cold, unloving orphanage, so its even more remarkable that she ended up like she did.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> You have still committed adultery many times. There are always bad consequences to that sooner or later.


We have already been over this. There is not an argument that adultery has occurred. The fact that you only see it negatively does not require that others do so. Furthermore, bad is also a subjective value, so what you consider bad isn't automatically what others consider bad. You might as well make the argument that same sex couples, even monogamous ones, have still committed sodomy many times and that there are bad consequences to that sooner or later.

Personally, I have been actively poly for over 20 years, and not had any bad consequences that were not similar to the one monogamous marriage I had. I know a triad still going strong at 50 years.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> You have still committed adultery many times. There are always bad consequences to that sooner or later.


Umm...actually, NOPE. My great-uncle always had an active extramarital sex life, well into his 60s, and his wife told her sister (my Nana) that as long as it was never in the same town where they lived, she didn't mind. He traveled alot for work and had a HIGH sex drive, into his 80s!! I remember over-hearing my great-aunt telling my Nana, with a laugh "for heaven's sake, I'm in my mid-70s, could we have sex ONCE a week instead of 3 times!?"

He did VERY well financially, had two sons and grandchildren who are all fine, upstanding citizens, and a very happy satisfying marriage until he died a few years ago, at nearly 90.

I'm not saying he was right or wrong, but what he did gave him only positive consequences, NONE negative. And this was starting back in the 40s!

YOUR moral view is only that - YOUR moral view. You hold that view based on FEAR...and that's ok (for you), but you have no right to judge others who don't live based on the same fear as you do. And as a fellow Christian, it really bothers me when I see you do it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Umm...actually, NOPE. My great-uncle always had an active extramarital sex life, well into his 60s, and his wife told her sister (my Nana) that as long as it was never in the same town where they lived, she didn't mind. He traveled alot for work and had a HIGH sex drive, into his 80s!! I remember over-hearing my great-aunt telling my Nana, with a laugh "for heaven's sake, I'm in my mid-70s, could we have sex ONCE a week instead of 3 times!?"
> 
> He did VERY well financially, had two sons and grandchildren who are all fine, upstanding citizens, and a very happy satisfying marriage until he died a few years ago, at nearly 90.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

My great grandparents were the same way. Very high sex drive into their 80s, and they really got around...

They both lived to be over 100 and would often laugh about all the fun they had together over the years. 

Funny story about how they met... 
My great grandfather was injured during WW2. He was on a mission that must have been secret, because neither of my great grandparents were willing to talk about it. This was here in the US, not overseas. We think he was basically trying to root out spies and such, since he would often visit german speaking people and disable their radios if they had one. 

Anyway, my great grandmother was a nurse that was known to be very hard to deal with. She had a nasty temper. The first time he saw her, she cussed him out for not staying in bed like he was supposed to. He told another nurse that he was going to marry her. 

A few weeks later, he did.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> That's fine but is it fair for Mighty Fred to decide he needs something new in his marriage? Isn't that the ultimate bait and switch?


What is exactly the same in your life today as it was 25 years ago?

Are you wearing the same underwear you got 25 years ago?

Are you driving the same car?

Are you doing exactly the same things at work at your job than you were 25 years ago?

Do you have exactly the same circle of friends and are doing the exact same things when you get together today that you did 25 years ago? 

Are you even living in the same house? 

Things change. Change is inevitable. I learned in jr high biology that when things change an organisms options are to adapt, relocate or die.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> What is exactly the same in your life today as it was 25 years ago?
> 
> Are you wearing the same underwear you got 25 years ago?
> 
> ...


This is true. However, for the majority of people, marriage equals monogamy, and after _two decades_ of marriage if your spouse suddenly tells you they don't want to see it that way anymore it's probably more than shocking and changes what you thought marriage was to both of you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> What is exactly the same in your life today as it was 25 years ago?
> 
> Are you wearing the same underwear you got 25 years ago?
> 
> ...


Poor argument. I have the same wife and we change over time together.

All the changes you listed, Mrs. Conan and I go through together as man and wife.

You might want to leave that argument in the reject bin.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

What @The Mighty Fred says: "Well, Mrs TMF, you know I love you, that I'll always love you, but there's one thing I would like to suggest. I want to open our marriage up so that we can have sex with other partners. What do you say?"

What Mrs The Mighty Fred* might* hear is: "Hey, wife. Your older, you don't do it for me anymore, I want to get to screw around."


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> That's fine but is it fair for Mighty Fred to decide he needs something new in his marriage? Isn't that the ultimate bait and switch?


Not at all. Unless, of course, he already had this in mind to do when he proposed. And yes, it IS fair to change as a person over time, and it IS fair to want to discuss those changes with your spouse rather than just act on them unilaterally.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Livvie said:


> This is true. However, for the majority of people, marriage equals monogamy, and after _two decades_ of marriage if your spouse suddenly tells you they don't want to see it that way anymore it's probably more than shocking and changes what you thought marriage was to both of you.


But then, WHAT is the alternative...? Because I will tell you, the fact that my husband LIED and HID his sexual desires from me hurt so much more than if he had just been open and honest with me about himself. And it did so much more damage to how I saw him, because I couldn't believe that he would leave me confused and insecure about what was going on, and that he didn't TRUST me with his true sexual self.

It would have been so much easier to handle and to understand if he had just SAID, "I like watching porn to get aroused - it's not about YOU, I still want to share myself with you, but this adds to my enjoyment of sex. What do you think? Can we do this in a way that works for you too?"...or something similar. That would have at least left me with some trust in him, and a belief that I mattered too, and that he still wanted sex to include me. And then I could have brought up MY insecurities and issues with it, and negotiated with him so that we were both happy and satisfied.

Ultimately, he did NOT do it honestly because he was selfish and actually did NOT care or want sex to be about me. So from my perspective, the greater red-flag and problem is in the secrecy and pretending.

Knowledge is POWER -- it can only benefit a healthy partnership to be open and honest about sexual desires, so that power is shared as equally as possible.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Poor argument. I have the same wife and we change over time together.
> 
> All the changes you listed, Mrs. Conan and I go through together as man and wife.
> 
> You might want to leave that argument in the reject bin.


Actually no, your post is actually right on the money and very true. 

After 10 years of marriage my wife and I did change together and our views and beliefs did change together. 

We were both open to swinging at that time and decided together to give it a try.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Actually no, your post is actually right on the money and very true.
> 
> After 10 years of marriage my wife and I did change together and our views and beliefs did change together.
> 
> We were both open to swinging at that time and decided together to give it a try.


I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I thought you were comparing a spouse to unrelated things.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> This is true. However, for the majority of people, marriage equals monogamy, and after _two decades_ of marriage if your spouse suddenly tells you they don't want to see it that way anymore it's probably more than shocking and changes what you thought marriage was to both of you.


Everyone is assuming these things are always “sudden.” And that one is ambushing the other out of the blue.

While I am sure this does happen out there and I also assume that approach doesn’t always go over very well. 

But in the people that are actually doing it successfully, it is probably more of a process and evolution rather than a thunder bolt out of nowhere. 

General concepts like monogamy vs nonmonogamy, fidelity, communication, fantasies, swinging, threesomes, all things sexual etc were all topics of discussion of discussion for my wife and I clear back to when we first started dating. 

The ground didn’t shake and sky didn’t rumble when the topic of actually discussing swinging for real came up. 

It was a Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday or something. 

And then we discussed dropping off the car at the shop to get worked on or something.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I could've written most of your post. The fundamental lack of trust and honesty is a huge problem. 

The alternative for me is being single and celibate. Which seemed hard at first, but the more I'm on my own, I think I'll probably stay this way. 😌



LisaDiane said:


> But then, WHAT is the alternative...?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Everyone is assuming these things are always “sudden.” And that one is ambushing the other out of the blue.
> 
> While I am sure this does happen out there and I also assume that approach doesn’t always go over very well.
> 
> But in the people that are actually doing it successfully, it is probably more of a process and evolution rather than a thunder bolt out of nowhere.


This is probably one of the things people misunderstand. For us we gradually discussed the idea over probably a year or so before doing anything about it. So we had a lot of time to play it out in our heads objectively before doing anything. I remember at one point planing to go to a private swingers party, we got everything together, had the required phone call with the party host to verify we were both coming and on board, headed to the location and then chickened out and didn't go in. Then we went to a strip club instead. It was a lot of baby steps over a long period of time that we took before we ever did anything sexual. 

People participate in various forms of the lifestyle in different ways. One unifying factor with most people I have come across successfully participating in any form of swinging or ENM is honesty and openness in the relationship. Just like a traditionally monogamous relationship trust is key. So for most couples even if their thing is a fully open relationship there still needs to be open communication and trust. So also just like a monogamous relationship if say a husband turns out to be having a relationship with someone and never told his wife about it for most of the couples I have met this would be a problem just like it would be in traditional marriage. 

There are some couples who keep their extramarital relationships totally separate almost like they have a separate life but that has been rare for me to see.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

But for this OP, it doesn't sound like a joint mindset change. It sounds like he just wants a FWB. He wants. It doesn't sound like this is anything on his wife's radar.

The majority of people who are married assume the marriage will be monogamous.

If my husband (theoretical, I was married for 16 years but I'm currently not married) told me he wanted a **** buddy, that would be the end of the marriage as we knew it. I'm not interested in anything that isn't joint monogamy. Never have been, never will be. 

Yeah great, he's sharing this thoughts with me. 

Does not mean that sharing isn't going to have an effect on the relationship. 

I want a partner who wants to be monogamous, for whom monogamy is important.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I don't know if you still reading Fred, but my opinion is you need to sit your wife down and tell her the truth - that she isn't doing it for you in the bedroom anymore. Tell her you want to work with her to fix that. Tell her a plan needs to be made because just talking about it isn't going to fix it - some changes need to be implemented. It may be a several discussion process but IMO has to be done. You aren't happy with the situation now so something has to be done to change it - and that is up to you to do. 

Don't take no for an answer unless your willing to accept things as they are now and feel the way you do now - forever - or until you decide to make a bigger life change. Good luck.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> But for this OP, it doesn't sound like a joint mindset change. It sounds like he just wants a FWB. He wants. It doesn't sound like this is anything on his wife's radar.
> 
> The majority of people who are married assume the marriage will be monogamous.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, and to be honest the OP should have called the title of this thread 'superquandry, cheating'. Or 'superquandry adultery'. He isnt interested in whether his wife wants to swing or not, he is ONLY interested in wanting to have sex with lots of other women so if he suggests swinging he seems to think it his wife is more likely to be happy for him to sleep with multiple women because apparently she is also allowed to have sex with lots of other men, yippee for her.He isnt really interested in how this will affect his marriage or deeply hurt his wife, as long as HE can do what HE wants. Its all about HIM and nothing about HER, so selfish. No decent husband would want their wife to have sex with other men, and certainly not to be pressured into it, which many are.He seems to have no respect for her at all or how this will hurt her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> What is exactly the same in your life today as it was 25 years ago?
> 
> Are you wearing the same underwear you got 25 years ago?
> 
> ...


If we marry a persn who has strong moral values, character and integrity, they arent going to suddenly decide after 20 years they they want to cheat/swing. Its about what is inside us, what our core beliefs and values are. How we see marriage and faithfulness and committment. Those deep down important things don't change. To compare that with whether you wear the same socks you did 20 years ago is beyond madness and really scraping the bottom of the barrel..


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> If we marry a persn who has strong moral values, character and integrity, they arent going to suddenly decide after 20 years they they want to cheat/swing. Its about what is inside us, what our core beliefs and values are. How we see marriage and faithfulness and committment. Those deep down important things don't change. To compare that with whether you wear the same socks you did 20 years ago is beyond madness and really scraping the bottom of the barrel..


I would agree with you that any major change in paradigm that is “sudden,” is cause for concern and investigation.

This can be applied to anything, not just sexual dynamics. 

Anyone that suddenly changes their beliefs and values deserves further scrutiny. 

But what I and a few of the others that have real world experience with ENM have been trying to explain, is these are rarely “sudden” changes..... at least not in the people that have had ongoing success. 

Yes, if later this afternoon you were to post to this forum that you had an epiphany and that you now want to start bringing home strange men and that you wanted your H to video it and take pictures - we would all rightly think that something very significant had happened and that it was likely not a good thing. 

But those of us here that have experience in swinging/open/poly, that is NOT how it occurred at all. It was a process and evolution that placed out over literally years And was to one degree or another a topic of discussion clear back to when we first started dating. 

We no longer participate in the swinging lifestyle but even the end of our swinging days did not end suddenly or with any kind of event or bombshell revelation. It just kind of dwindled down and faded away over time. 

So in a way I definitely agree with you that a sudden and expected change in desire, values or interests is cause for concern.

But other than winning the lottery, probably nothing in marriage should be a sudden quantum leap or 180 degree turnabout.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I would liken this to the annual performance evaluation in the corporate world. - there shouldn’t be any unexpected surprises out of the blue. 

If an employee has a performance issue, that should not be a surprise revelation at the annual review and the employer is derelict if the annual review is the first time the employee hears of his/her performance problem. 

If there is a performance problem, it should have been being addressed at the time.

This isn’t all that different, people should communicate and address changes and situations and processes on an ongoing basis. 

There should be no shock and awe in marriage or any major, sudden changes out of the blue.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

OP. Let me reiterate what I want to get across. Maybe it's more than one thing.

First, I've just learned that there are many young women who openly and regularly look for random Effs. For some reason this greatly saddens me. I feel this kind of thing hardens them, hardens the heart, and perhaps shows they don't value themselves as highly as they should. ((do note: my mother taught us that women viewed sex as kind of dirty and weren't so much interested in this as boys (which made it hard to date at first for me! Imagine going up to ask a girl out, and I'm thinking, "she KNOWS if just want sex from her.") 

But yeah the Trashy **** thing is (a) painful for me to think about, while at the same time (b) I'm kicking myself for not having been born about 16 years ago. I would partake of the open legs a'plenty.

Second, our marriage is very, very stable. 

Third, our sex life is entirely commanded by my wife; she's assumed this over the years and perhaps this is the problem. 

Fourth, my wife likes only a small range of sexual acts. So there's repetition (but also excellence is developed this way) and perhaps too much.

Fifth, women are interesting creatures and I relate well with them. 

Sixth point, I see sex as mostly a physical thing unless one wants to add emotion. And as I get older, it means less and less to me---the emotional stuff---and I wonder if that monogamy impulse exists early in human development in order to encourage the development of family life.

Seven, now that the child's raised, the exclusivity thing doesn't matter so much. Our relationship is strong and perhaps we jointly can pursue physical activity we enjoy. I mean, if I wanted to go jogging with the woman down the block, or she wanted to go bowling with Joe, why not?

Eight, I'm realizing that people, more often than I knew, were arranging various kinds of sexual encounters and relationships.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

OP.

fwiw, I'm not a big porn watcher by any means. It's pretty trivial stuff, and sad.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> OP. Let me reiterate what I want to get across. Maybe it's more than one thing.
> 
> First, I've just learned that there are many young women who openly and regularly look for random Effs. For some reason this greatly saddens me. I feel this kind of thing hardens them, hardens the heart, and perhaps shows they don't value themselves as highly as they should. ((do note: my mother taught us that women viewed sex as kind of dirty and weren't so much interested in this as boys (which made it hard to date at first for me! Imagine going up to ask a girl out, and I'm thinking, "she KNOWS if just want sex from her.")
> 
> ...


Ok then...what are you going to do about your hesitancy to communicate with your wife about easier issues than non-monogamy?


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Ok then...what are you going to do about your hesitancy to communicate with your wife about easier issues than non-monogamy?


**** that's a good question.

Ummm here's my idea/plan/hope.

Last night we spent three hours (it was rough) looking at lingerie online. I don't know much or have any major desires to dress her in certain ways other than it should look sexy, and not like just another nightgown, right? Three hours. But that's a start.

I'm giving her for Christmas a romantic get-away for a long weekend. There are, I don't know what you call them, hotels for just adult couples. Maybe something like that since they have nice fixtures in the rooms, like a whirlpool. Would be nice to just relax. On the other hand, I'm sure she's got a negative view about that kind of thing. But hey, a nicer, non-basic hotel room might be okay. I don't know.

It takes long, long, long to actually address issues with this person only on the subject. Otherwise our communication is solid. But for some reason, not here. It hasn't always been this way. Did SHE cheat?

And I think the purpose of marriage changes over time as the family situation changes.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> It was punishable by death, its so damaging both for the one who does it and for their poor family. Yes there are bad consequences, I have seen this multiple times.


It _can _be damaging, and it _can _have bad consequences. Yet there are those of us who have seen good consequences multiple times. There is no guarantee one way or the other.



> *When you have the best* why would you want anything else?


And that's why I remain poly, and open


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> How we see marriage and faithfulness and committment.


Key words. But your arguments about _our_ marriages is about how _you _see marriage and faithfulness and commitment, not how _we _see it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> **** that's a good question.
> 
> Ummm here's my idea/plan/hope.
> 
> ...


Have you ever tried being DIRECT with her about it - "I can see that looking at lingerie is making you uncomfortable, will you tell me why?" - and then listening to what her responses are and discussing those? Even if you just say, "Oh ok", at first, and then in another day or two after you've thought of how you want to respond, you can bring it up directly again.

There is NOTHING wrong with pushing her to communicate with you if you do it with a desire to connect and gain understanding (not to manipulate) - when partners are not meeting eachother's needs, it's important to challenge the blocks that exist, to keep them from becoming immovable.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

The Mighty Fred said:


> **** that's a good question.
> 
> Ummm here's my idea/plan/hope.
> 
> ...


Look you are nowhere near approaching the right mindset of a successful entry into the "lifestyle"realm. First you are currently in a spot where this is one sided, always, not sometimes, always a recipe for disaster. 

I think you are much better off sitting your wife down and start by telling her you're unhappy with the state of your sex life. Lay it all out explain you want to be open and honest and just tell her you're not satisfied. Give her sometime to absorb that bombshell before you even consider the idea of opening things up. Making the very safe assumption that she has zero interest in any kind of open relationship I would not even allude to this thought before giving her the chance to address the prime issue. Maybe after she has some time to appreciate your honesty she will be open to spicing things up. But you are a long long long way from being able to enter the "lifestyle" with anything other than an almost certain disastrous result. 

You owe her more respect than expecting an overnight switch. SLOW DOWN, talk to her about the overall sex life, think of ways you can improve things. Tell her some ideas of yours to spice things up like sexy lingerie, new positions ask about trying some toys whatever. Baby steps. What you might find is she is willing to explore things with you sexually enough to satisfy you, if not then you can consider dropping the nuke.

You're playing with fire so you also need to decide if you're willing to lose the marriage if in the end you just want other women. 

Also be careful going on hookup sites looking for women just looking for random sex. Most of the profiles claiming that are creepy dudes pretending to be sexy younger women.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

The Mighty Fred said:


> **** that's a good question.
> 
> Ummm here's my idea/plan/hope.
> 
> ...


You honestly just sound very frustrated with your marriage at least as far as the sex goes.

You really sound like you are trying to torture logic when you really just want a more fulfilling sex life.

You seem to tip toe around your wife and say she controls the sex so entertaining fantasies in your head and torturing logic are all you have there.

You don't seem satisfied at all with her sexually. You just seem frustrated in that department.

Get your marriage solid or maybe bug out of it so you can find a woman who you can have a better time with.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Umm...actually, NOPE. My great-uncle always had an active extramarital sex life, well into his 60s, and his wife told her sister (my Nana) that as long as it was never in the same town where they lived, she didn't mind. He traveled alot for work and had a HIGH sex drive, into his 80s!! I remember over-hearing my great-aunt telling my Nana, with a laugh "for heaven's sake, I'm in my mid-70s, could we have sex ONCE a week instead of 3 times!?"
> 
> He did VERY well financially, had two sons and grandchildren who are all fine, upstanding citizens, and a very happy satisfying marriage until he died a few years ago, at nearly 90.
> 
> ...


Except perhaps the secret abortions, adulteries, venereal diseases, and broken homes that great uncle may have caused. Of course, he nor his wife or family probably didn’t brag about these secrets. Sex is just harmless fun with no consequences in the swingers utopia.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Not at all. Unless, of course, he already had this in mind to do when he proposed. And yes, it IS fair to change as a person over time, and it IS fair to want to discuss those changes with your spouse rather than just act on them unilaterally.


I’ve got a lot of regrets for the times I’ve shared my lower self with others especially my wife. I try to keep that jackass from talking.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> You honestly just sound very frustrated with your marriage at least as far as the sex goes.
> 
> You really sound like you are trying to torture logic when you really just want a more fulfilling sex life.
> 
> ...


Conan, should marriage be something that gets thrown away just because we are disatisfied with one aspect of it?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I could've written most of your post. The fundamental lack of trust and honesty is a huge problem.
> 
> The alternative for me is being single and celibate. Which seemed hard at first, but the more I'm on my own, I think I'll probably stay this way. 😌


I would far far rather be single than married to a guy who thinks its ok to have sex with other women or think its ok to suggest that I have sex with other men. I am just thankful that there are still some good faithful men around.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*MODERATOR WARNING:- *I have just had to waste an hour of my precious time on a very busy Christmas Eve cleaning up a religious threadjack. Despite the warning.

The next person or people who ignore this warning will be banned.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Conan, should marriage be something that gets thrown away just because we are disatisfied with one aspect of it?


Different topic.


Diana7 said:


> Conan, should marriage be something that gets thrown away just because we are disatisfied with one aspect of it?


Different topic but no.

He has talked himself into contemplating ending his marriage, in a sense, anyway.

From what little can be gleaned from his posts, he isn't satisfied sexually and she controls the sex they do have.

It isn't a healthy situation and they should talk and grow healthier together.

He tip toes around her however and has somehow gotten it in his head that he is going to talk to her about swinging.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> It _can _be damaging, and it _can _have bad consequences. Yet there are those of us who have seen good consequences multiple times. There is no guarantee one way or the other.
> 
> 
> And that's why I remain poly, and open


When you have the best spouse, you really don't need anyone else.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Different topic.
> 
> Different topic but no.
> 
> ...


In his first post he said this.'I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex'. 
It sounds to me that he wants to have sex with other women and thinks that proposing swinging is how he can achieve that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> In his first post he said this.'I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex'.
> It sounds to me that he wants to have sex with other women and thinks that proposing swinging is how he can achieve that.


The information I'm referencing came out through his other posts.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Different topic.
> 
> Different topic but no.
> 
> ...


Then it came out that what he really wants is a FWB. This isn't something he wants to do with her at all, so he shouldn't even call it swinging. He should call it opening up their marriage, or more plainly: I want to have sex with other women.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Conan, should marriage be something that gets thrown away just because we are disatisfied with one aspect of it?


Of course not! That's why wives should stay with their husbands even if she is dissatisfied with the bruises he gives her.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> When you have the best spouse, you really don't need anyone else.


When you have clothes that cover you and keep you warm, then you don't need any other clothing. When you have food that provides the nutrition, you don't need any other food.

In reality, you don't even need a spouse. But I have 3 of the best spouses, so I'm happy.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Seems exhausting. 😅



maquiscat said:


> But I have 3 of the best spouses, so I'm happy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> should marriage be something that gets thrown away just because we are disatisfied with one aspect of it?


Sometimes yes. 

If someone is being abused or ignored/abandoned, cheated on, spouse is a drunk/druggie etc, why should anyone have to put up with that even if was just that one thing.

But I think the bigger picture people are starting to wake up to these days is people don’t have to be married. 

Marriage is not a requirement for anything and if it is not providing a benefit, then why do it??

I realize many of you are still of the mindset that marriage somehow provides a cosmic benefit to the universe and that the individual’s should be secondary to this cosmic benefit and that we should all sacrifice for it - but many are now questioning why???? 

If there is not a tangible benefit to the individuals in the marriage and it is costing each of them,,, why do it? 

I think it’s rediculous to say that the individuals needs don’t matter, because the individual does not have to be there if there’s nothing in it for him/her.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Then it came out that what he really wants is a FWB. This isn't something he wants to do with her at all, so he shouldn't even call it swinging. He should call it opening up their marriage, or more plainly: I want to have sex with other women.


Yup. It does seem rooted in his dissatisfaction with his wife in the bedroom though.

I actually have interest in how he thinks he is going to approach her given his timidity in regards to discussing sex with her.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Of course not! That's why wives should stay with their husbands even if she is dissatisfied with the bruises he gives her.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk



Did you really just compare domestic violence to one's sex life not being kinky enough?

I don't know how to respond to this thought process.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Seems exhausting.


Eh, not really. I can do my own thing when I want most of the time. If one spouse is too busy when I need something or some help, another is usually available. Lots of cuddle potential. Sure we have our problems too, but it's good having three other people when you go into an abuse flashback.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Sometimes yes.
> 
> If someone is being abused or ignored/abandoned, cheated on, spouse is a drunk/druggie etc, why should anyone have to put up with that even if was just that one thing.
> 
> ...


I have to add to this pondering. What type of marriage is necessary as well? I can guarantee that the vast majority of people here will tell you that if the government did away with all legal recognition and benefits, they would still be calling their spouse, a spouse. Which means that most don't hold that piece of paper as the proof of marriage, in general. So then is it worth being married without the legal marriage?

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> Did you really just compare domestic violence to one's sex life not being kinky enough?
> 
> I don't know how to respond to this thought process.


No, I used an extreme to show the absurdity of the argument. Where is the line on what is a dissatification that is or is not worth "throwing away" the marriage on? How far do you take that argument?

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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Of course not! That's why wives should stay with their husbands even if she is dissatisfied with the bruises he gives her.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


What a bizarre thing to say which has nothing to do with this thread.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Sometimes yes.
> 
> If someone is being abused or ignored/abandoned, cheated on, spouse is a drunk/druggie etc, why should anyone have to put up with that even if was just that one thing.
> 
> ...


Cheating and abuse are of course important reasons to end a marriage. Being a bit dissatisfied with sex or whatever isnt.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> Seems exhausting. 😅


Well only one is your spouse because legally you can only have one.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Then it came out that what he really wants is a FWB. This isn't something he wants to do with her at all, so he shouldn't even call it swinging. He should call it opening up their marriage, or more plainly: I want to have sex with other women.


At least he should be honest instead of trying to make it sound as if he is also thinking of her by suggesting swinging, which he isnt.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Well only one is your spouse because legally you can only have one.


Yep. And racially mixed marriages were illegal too. Didn't mean that they were immoral in any way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Yep. And racially mixed marriages were illegal too. Didn't mean that they were immoral in any way.


He still only has one spouse not 3 as he claims.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Cheating and abuse are of course important reasons to end a marriage. Being a bit dissatisfied with sex or whatever isnt.


That's something (ending marriage because dissatisfied with sex) that is a lot more widespread now than it used to be. I think the entitlement is just out of control these days, and I blame porn for normalizing this crap.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> No, I used an extreme to show the absurdity of the argument. Where is the line on what is a dissatification that is or is not worth "throwing away" the marriage on? How far do you take that argument?
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Depends on how much you value the vows you made I guess. It also depends on whether you value your marriage and care about your spouse. The OP says he has a very good marriage, so hardly worth throwing that all away for some meaningless casual sex.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> He still only has one spouse not 3 as he claims.


Yeah, we all know that. Splitting hairs again. All are treated like a spouse and treat him as a spouse, so while technically not all are legal wives, they are indistinguishable from wives.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> He still only has one spouse not 3 as he claims.


So? That's a pretty insensitive thing to point out over and over again. He isn't allowed to have more than one recognized by the state because the state simply won't recognize the others. For completely arbitrary reasons. 


You sound like the people who used to claim that racially mixed couples were living in sin. 

Because the state wouldn't let them get married. 
Instead of calling out a clearly arbitrary and unfair restriction against a minority, you use the fact that an unjust law exists to poke at them and justify your sense of moral superiority. 

It's not a good look.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That's something (ending marriage because dissatisfied with sex) that is a lot more widespread now than it used to be. I think the entitlement is just out of control these days, and I blame porn for normalizing this crap.


I agree, people so casually end their marriage for so often very selfish reasons. Vows and promises made mean nothing it seems. Its all about me me me.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Other people stay in their marriage for very selfish reasons, but would leave if they could. There is a wide spectrum of reasons for leaving or staying, and many are selfish or unhealthy.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Did you really just compare domestic violence to one's sex life not being kinky enough?
> 
> I don't know how to respond to this thought process.


A keyboard can be an extension of one's mind (if permitted).
Some get comfortable making others uneasy, so queasy.

Plus, if you post enough times the same thoughts, they one day will become mainstream, no longer eliciting plain-scream.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> Yeah, we all know that. Splitting hairs again. All are treated like a spouse and treat him as a spouse, so while technically not all are legal wives, they are indistinguishable from wives.


Except unless they have kids with him, they can pack up and go the first better option they have.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> I agree, people so casually end their marriage for so often very selfish reasons. Vows and promises made mean nothing it seems. Its all about me me me.


It's all about sex with a huge amount of men. There have always been men who traded in their wives for a younger model, no matter how squalid she was, when they neared 40. But now it's just rampant. It blew my mind recently when one of these guys said getting sex was the main reason they got married. Good Lord, being married, sex is only one little facet of that and raising a family. Unfortunately, I'm sure their wife was the last to know about that attitude. Most of those poor women truly believed they were loved and treasured because that's how THEY are. Nope. Once the man isn't attracted to her body anymore or what she does to him with it, these days, it's bye-bye.

Honestly, though, it's probably doing them a favor, now that they know.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's all about sex with a huge amount of men. There have always been men who traded in their wives for a younger model, no matter how squalid she was, when they neared 40. But now it's just rampant. It blew my mind recently when one of these guys said getting sex was the main reason they got married. Good Lord, being married, sex is only one little facet of that and raising a family. Unfortunately, I'm sure their wife was the last to know about that attitude. Most of those poor women truly believed they were loved and treasured because that's how THEY are. Nope. Once the man isn't attracted to her body anymore or what she does to him with it, these days, it's bye-bye.


most of the studies on divorce show that for the vast majority of them, its the women who initiate the divorce. that, to me, indicates that the reason we have higher divorce rates these days is because its easier for women to get a divorce and move on than it used to be. 

it also indicates to me that there are a lot of crappy men out there that women simply dont want to put up with, and in todays society, they dont have to.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> He still only has one spouse not 3 as he claims.


So then of the government stops recognizing your marriage on a legal basis, do you stop having sex with that man you live with because he is no longer your husband?

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Except unless they have kids with him, they can pack up and go the first better option they have.


You say that as if that's a bad thing. IMO, that's a good thing, because everyone is there by choice, implying that things are very good and worthwhile. If they no longer are, then any of them can leave if they can't work things out - but I suspect they'd try hard to work things out first.

My wife and I have said from the beginning that if someone else would be that much better for us, we should pursue that opportunity. Of course, we could both keep what we have _and_ pursue that great opportunity. Great relationships needn't be "either/or"; they can be "and."


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> You say that as if that's a bad thing. IMO, that's a good thing, because everyone is there by choice, implying that things are very good and worthwhile. If they no longer are, then any of them can leave if they can't work things out - but I suspect they'd try hard to work things out first.
> 
> My wife and I have said from the beginning that if someone else would be that much better for us, we should pursue that opportunity. Of course, we could both keep what we have _and_ pursue that great opportunity. Great relationships needn't be "either/or"; they can be "and."


Oh, no, it's a GREAT thing as long as they don't get pregnant, but what are the chances that won't happen. A lot of people who live communally are expected to have babies because they want more "members" of the community. That's cultish stuff, and not saying that's what's going on here, but this lifestyle tends to lead to cultish stuff since it isn't socially accepted in a lot of circles.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, no, it's a GREAT thing as long as they don't get pregnant, but what are the chances that won't happen. A lot of people who live communally are expected to have babies because they want more "members" of the community. That's cultish stuff, and not saying that's what's going on here, but this lifestyle tends to lead to cultish stuff since it isn't socially accepted in a lot of circles.


That... Definitely not a thing in most polyamorous groups...


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Depends on how much you value the vows you made I guess. It also depends on whether you value your marriage and care about your spouse. The OP says he has a very good marriage, so hardly worth throwing that all away for some meaningless casual sex.


There you go again trying to tell others what vows they've taken, and what values they are supposed to have on their marriages. I have a very good poly marriage, with 20+ years with my legal wife (and she was the one that started us down this road), and 5+ years with our other husband and wife, who have 15+ years together and poly, and she is the one who has more partners than he has. We're doing better than a lot of monogamous marriages.

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> Yeah, we all know that. Splitting hairs again. All are treated like a spouse and treat him as a spouse, so while technically not all are legal wives, they are indistinguishable from wives.


And husband. 2 wives and 2 husbands in our poly unit, with me as one of the husband's.

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Except unless they have kids with him, they can pack up and go the first better option they have.


In our case we are all empty nesters. Collectively we have 9 children, all adults, and 9 grandchildren with number 10 due in the spring. There are a couple of step grandkids in there and one child who is unofficially adopted.

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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

I don't blame you. I got married when I was 23 and my wife was 17. I was a virgin when I got married and I think my wife was also, at least she claimed she was. After 18 years of marriage, she had gained about 400 pounds and our sex life was non-existant. I wanted to explore outside of marriage but she refused so I didn't push it. Our sex life the first 5 years was OK but nothing to write home about. Very blah and bland and basically it got like riding the same old horse over and over again, pun intended. I would have given anything for some variation or something new. I got divorced and the women I got with, all seemed to have wild pasts but just before I got with them, they decieded to settle down and be monogamous. No swinging, no wild parties, nothing but boring. Just blah sex. So I say go for it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, no, it's a GREAT thing as long as they don't get pregnant, but what are the chances that won't happen. A lot of people who live communally are expected to have babies because they want more "members" of the community. That's cultish stuff, and not saying that's what's going on here, but this lifestyle tends to lead to cultish stuff since it isn't socially accepted in a lot of circles.


I always think its so sad that some women dont think they are valuable enough or deserving enough to have their own husband. Many of course are bought up to think that way. Sad also that they think they must be content to be an 'add on' girlfriend/lover to the legal wife. Also that the legal wife has to accept the other women. Some may say well the women like it that way, well its usually the men who say that. Many such 'marriages' are in cults and they have no choice anyway.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> So then of the government stops recognizing your marriage on a legal basis, do you stop having sex with that man you live with because he is no longer your husband?
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Marriage is legal for one spouse married to another spouse. That wont change.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's all about sex with a huge amount of men. There have always been men who traded in their wives for a younger model, no matter how squalid she was, when they neared 40. But now it's just rampant. It blew my mind recently when one of these guys said getting sex was the main reason they got married. Good Lord, being married, sex is only one little facet of that and raising a family. Unfortunately, I'm sure their wife was the last to know about that attitude. Most of those poor women truly believed they were loved and treasured because that's how THEY are. Nope. Once the man isn't attracted to her body anymore or what she does to him with it, these days, it's bye-bye.
> 
> Honestly, though, it's probably doing them a favor, now that they know.


Yes its tragic. I do know a lot of good guys though who are faithful and who love their wife. Restores my faith in humanity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Yup. It does seem rooted in his dissatisfaction with his wife in the bedroom though.
> 
> I actually have interest in how he thinks he is going to approach her given his timidity in regards to discussing sex with her.


Its pretty obvious that he will loose her if he does tell her he wants to have sex with other women through swinging or in any other way. So much for his really good marriage. Obviously not that good if he would risk loosing it.


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## UndecidedinNY (Jul 11, 2013)

If she's having sex with you even when she doesn't want to, it's specifically to keep you happy and NOT have you go looking elsewhere. She will feel betrayed that you are interested in other women. You keep saying you like women and sex, but she is a woman and she's having sex with you, and a 57 year old woman on the swinger market isn't going to have the same enthusiastic response from swinging couples as she would have 20 years ago, so she may also feel tricked and like she wasted her time with you.

I feel kind of badly for her. I feel like no matter what happens going forward, she gave you 22 good years and it wasn't enough, and she's going to get screwed.


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## civilian98 (May 4, 2012)

I toyed around with the same thought, in fact I may have even brought it here and received the same comments you're receiving now. Prior to marriage I played around in the life a bit and met quite a few couples that frequented the swing scene. Other than pesky guys who didn't know the meaning of no, I can't remember too much drama happening otherwise. 

Since marriage, we've checked out a party, but didn't play and that was basically it. I've introduced a few "marital aids" in our sex life and we use our imagination and that's as far as things have gone. You know what... I'm okay with that.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, no, it's a GREAT thing as long as they don't get pregnant, but what are the chances that won't happen. A lot of people who live communally are expected to have babies because they want more "members" of the community. That's cultish stuff, and not saying that's what's going on here, but this lifestyle tends to lead to cultish stuff since it isn't socially accepted in a lot of circles.


You're falling back on stereotypes. Yes the FLDS do engage in this kind of BS, but the ENM community is much larger than just them. We are of all religions and atheists. All races, and sexual orientations. Various combinations of sexes and genders. Some of us don't start until we are beyond childbearing. The most common numbers are 3 and 4, although greater numbers do exist. There are just as many poly units that don't want any kids as there are monogamous couples who don't want kids.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I always think its so sad that some women dont think they are valuable enough or deserving enough to have their own husband.


Some women think they are valuable enough and deserving enough to have two or more husbands. You really need to get your head out of the stereotypes.



> Many such 'marriages' are in cults and they have no choice anyway.


Again, you are stereotyping. Most polys are NOT fundamentalist Latter Day Saints or Mormons nor Muslim, which admittedly do engage in such polygyny.

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Marriage is legal for one spouse married to another spouse. That wont change.


You avoided the question. Is that man your husband even if there is no legal paperwork saying as much?

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## discern (Jan 1, 2013)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


Great advice in the posts; in essence, don't go there. It's like making a permanent decision based on a temp problem. Visuals are hard to erase. You've simply forgotten who you used to be. Recall the dating days or early days. It's all possible to relieve.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's all about sex with a huge amount of men. There have always been men who traded in their wives for a younger model, no matter how squalid she was, when they neared 40. But now it's just rampant. It blew my mind recently when one of these guys said getting sex was the main reason they got married. Good Lord, being married, sex is only one little facet of that and raising a family. Unfortunately, I'm sure their wife was the last to know about that attitude. Most of those poor women truly believed they were loved and treasured because that's how THEY are. Nope. Once the man isn't attracted to her body anymore or what she does to him with it, these days, it's bye-bye.
> 
> Honestly, though, it's probably doing them a favor, now that they know.


A sizable majority of divorces are by women. 

And usually it’s it women that lose interest in sex with their the husbands or never was actually interested in him sexually but married him for other reasons, so I’m not sure how fair or even accurate it is to say that men are leaving women in droves to bang young women.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> A sizable majority of divorces are by women.
> 
> And usually it’s it women that lose interest in sex with their the husbands or never was actually interested in him sexually but married him for other reasons, so I’m not sure how fair or even accurate it is to say that men are leaving women in droves to bang young women.


The bottom drawer(s) answer, and the bottom panties answer* is always one of incompatibility.*
The marriage fits each badly.

The diks hate being confined, the panties ride up and chafe.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's all about sex with a huge amount of men.


I would say this is just normal for majority for my gender, it has been so since before we climbed down from the trees. I would submit the same could be said for women as well. That is how we ended up with 8+ billion on this small planet, we like one another's intimate company a lot, no matter some small segments attempting to make the genders dislike one another.

FWIW, my initial attraction to my wife of more than 5 decades was because on seeing her for the first time, thought she was hot. And her responses indicated she thought I was ok too. That is what hormones do, create an urge to merge. OUR marriage vows were essentially to "forsake all others". And we have, enthusiastically. We were members of the "free love" generation, but not participants. We modeled our parents who were happy and faithful in marriage to one another for more than 5 decades, ending when spouse died.

The OP seems to me to be in a "midlife" crisis, although 57 might be bit old. Most men go through this, mine was related more to realizing was never going to be highly paid executive, considered leaving the company to start my own. Thankfully never followed that longing.

The OP should try some decision analysis, write out the possible paths from where he is to where he thinks he wants to be in 5-10 years. Estimate the positive and negative consequences, likelihood of each. Make decision, implement, and embrace the consequences. Some philosopher once said that whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Lots going on in this post.

But I think the OP and many others (myself included) need to realize that very few people have great sex lives and should rely on other things in their lives to bring happiness. Unless you as a guy happen to find the rare woman who is into wild sex and even wilder things like swinging and stuff, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Many women like sex but they may not like it as much as men and they may never want to do what guys like the OP want to do. And as guys you really can't do much about that. Convincing a wife or GF to do those things is near impossible and even if you could, if they don't WANT to do them, its not going to be any fun and could even lead to failure.

I think many guys just have to realize your sex life may never be what you WANT it to be and maybe thats OK. Otherwise you just may end up being some single guy hanging out in bars all the time hoping to find someone to get lucky with but is that really living? I say this as I have more than one male friend who left his low sex wife hoping to find excitement and fun and now they are 50+ living alone in a crappy apartment "hoping" to meet someone.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Lots going on in this post.
> 
> But I think the OP and many others (myself included) need to realize that very few people have great sex lives and should rely on other things in their lives to bring happiness. Unless you as a guy happen to find the rare woman who is into wild sex and even wilder things like swinging and stuff, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
> 
> ...


That's so true for every success story there is another or more of lonely men.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> But I think the OP and many others (myself included) need to realize that very few people have great sex lives and should rely on other things in their lives to bring happiness. Unless you as a guy happen to find the rare woman who is into wild sex and even wilder things like swinging and stuff, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
> 
> Many women like sex but they may not like it as much as men and they may never want to do what guys like the OP want to do. And as guys you really can't do much about that. Convincing a wife or GF to do those things is near impossible and even if you could, if they don't WANT to do them, its not going to be any fun and could even lead to failure.
> 
> I think many guys just have to realize your sex life may never be what you WANT it to be and maybe thats OK. Otherwise you just may end up being some single guy hanging out in bars all the time hoping to find someone to get lucky with but is that really living? I say this as I have more than one male friend who left his low sex wife hoping to find excitement and fun and now they are 50+ living alone in a crappy apartment "hoping" to meet someone.


I largely agree with you, @FloridaGuy1. Many things can bring happiness, especially friends and hobbies. Sex certainly contributes to that, if the minimum you can live with doesn't do the relationship more harm than good. And of course, every person is different in what they find satisfying - or at least sufficient. Some lucky minority hits the relationship and sexual jackpot, even if they never win PowerBall.

As for the hopeful now-single men you know, they _may_ be happier now than before. Even if they aren't getting laid as much, they may be glad to be rid of the frustration and aggravation they experienced. If not, they can probably compromise on the sex to have someone who cares about them and vice versa. However, women near their age usually expect a man to bring something worthwhile to the table, because many are happy without a man and have a great circle of friends that is sufficient.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Unless you as a guy happen to find the rare woman who is into wild sex and even* wilder things like swinging and stuff*, you are setting yourself up for disappointment....
> 
> I think many guys just have to realize your sex life may never be *what you WANT it to be* and maybe thats OK.


Personally, I have been blessed being married to my soulmate. Guess am just a plain vanilla man, but "wilder things like swinging and stuff" has never even entered into my fantasies. And my sex life has always been all that II ever imagined it could be. Being nearer the end of my life than the beginning, certainly have no regrets about not walking on some wilder side.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Personally, I have been blessed being married to my soulmate. Guess am just a plain vanilla man, but "wilder things like swinging and stuff" has never even entered into my fantasies. And my sex life has always been all that II ever imagined it could be. Being nearer the end of my life than the beginning, certainly have no regrets about not walking on some wilder side.


I think thats pretty cool! I will say having been in a low sex marriage in the past many years ago it can indeed be VERY frustrating so not everyone enjoys what you have experienced...at least I didn't. Fortunately, I did not have to make any decisions about ending the marriage. My ex did citing I didn't make enough money to suit her needs so she bailed out on me.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Lots going on in this post.
> 
> But I think the OP and many others (myself included) need to realize that very few people have great sex lives and should rely on other things in their lives to bring happiness. Unless you as a guy happen to find the rare woman who is into wild sex and even wilder things like swinging and stuff, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
> 
> ...


Why a "crappy" apartment?

They don't earn enough on their own, without a roommate (wife) to afford anything else?

Or, they made financial and partner choices during their marriage and are financially hampered now because of those choices?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Why a "crappy" apartment?
> 
> They don't earn enough on their own, without a roommate (wife) to afford anything else?
> 
> Or, they made financial and partner choices during their marriage and are financially hampered now because of those choices?


I wondered about that, too. When I divorced my ex, I was in a good financial position and bought a nice 3-storey condo near my job. It didn't matter much to my dating, but it certainly didn't hurt, either. IMO, it's more important the place be neat, clean, and show a little thought about style.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Why a "crappy" apartment?
> 
> They don't earn enough on their own, without a roommate (wife) to afford anything else?
> 
> Or, they made financial and partner choices during their marriage and are financially hampered now because of those choices?


No not from what the ex wife contributed but most of the guys I know took huge financial hits after their divorce and basically were made to give away half of what they had to their ex as most had wives who did not work. So yeah they probably can't afford much more than that as they are paying a good chunk in alimony\child support.


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## center1 (Jan 25, 2013)

“She has sex with me even when she doesn’t want to”

This should not be okay with you. 

You’re obviously very immature. Get divorced and go sleep around. Your wife deserves better.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> A sizable majority of divorces are by women.
> 
> And usually it’s it women that lose interest in sex with their the husbands or never was actually interested in him sexually but married him for other reasons, so I’m not sure how fair or even accurate it is to say that men are leaving women in droves to bang young women.


Where are all these young tarts going after older men? Enquiring minds want to know....😆


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Where are all these young tarts going after older men? Enquiring minds want to know....😆


I see them at marinas and other locations here in Florida where some old rich guy has a million dollar boat and will have 2 or 3 hot young things in bikinis is all over him.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I see them at marinas and other locations here in Florida where some old rich guy has a million dollar boat and will have 2 or 3 hot young things in bikinis is all over him.


And I'm sure they are REALLY honestly into him and attracted to HIM (not the huge bulge of his wallet).


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

jlg07 said:


> And I'm sure they are REALLY honestly into him and attracted to HIM (not the huge bulge of his wallet).


Yeah I think its a big game that both know the rules. They show up and put out, he takes them on the boat for the day and likely provides them with drinks and other provisions possibly illegal ones.

Then next weekend it repeats and most likely with different women.

I suppose it all depends on what you want out of the game?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I want someone who will take me to cancer treatments and I they. Sex is easy. Real relationship are hard to find.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I see them at marinas and other locations here in Florida where some old rich guy has a million dollar boat and will have 2 or 3 hot young things in bikinis is all over him.


Apologies but all can think about are some old rich guys from the news who lived the same lifestyle and are now unemployed, in prison, or dead after the 2 or 3 or 100 "hot young things" all got together and delivered their revenge for the "excitement". It always amazed me that guys smart enough to own a million dollar boat, or ten luxurious homes or two or three islands were so stupid in other ways. On smaller scale, while still working, I watched high level executives in my company trash their families, lives and career chasing some topless dancer (who had a biker or drug pushing boyfriend.).


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Apologies but all can think about are some old rich guys from the news who lived the same lifestyle and are now unemployed, in prison, or dead after the 2 or 3 or 100 "hot young things" all got together and delivered their revenge for the "excitement". It always amazed me that guys smart enough to own a million dollar boat, or ten luxurious homes or two or three islands were so stupid in other ways. On smaller scale, while still working, I watched high level executives in my company trash their families, lives and career chasing some topless dancer (who had a biker or drug pushing boyfriend.).


No one ever said you had to be smart to be rich.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> No one ever said you had to be smart to be rich.


yes I was thinking that as well. Sometimes wealth is inherited as well.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This is going off topic.

Polygamy is NOT the same as swinging.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

MattMatt said:


> This is going off topic.
> 
> Polygamy is NOT the same as swinging.


There are many here who are making the two the same. In their minds, there is no difference. It's one of the reasons that the spin off threads started, to discuss the differences between the various forms of ENM


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I


FloridaGuy1 said:


> No one ever said you had to be smart to be rich.


Some of the smartest guys I know are completely and utterly clueless when it comes to women. 

Intelligence with math and physics and engineering doesn’t not always crossover into emotional, social or interpersonal intelligence.

One of my best friends is a highly intelligent computer engineer. 

I finally told him a few years ago to not make any decisions or take any actions with any women until he has obtained the go-ahead from his sister, me or some of his other buddies. I told him he needed to be like George Costanza on Sienfeld when he was only successful if he did the exact opposite of what he thought should do. His natural inclinations were wrong 100% of the time, so he needed to start doing the opposite of what he would normally do. 

shortly after having this discussion with him, he flew some Puerto Rican mail order bride to his city and met her for the first time at the airport when he picked her up to take back to his house to live with him.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...



Here's the thing. Men aren't designed to be sexually satisfied. 
If you have one, you want two. 
If you bang a blonde and a brunette, a red head would complete the set.
If you get blowjobs, you dream about anal.

The trick to happiness is to recognize when your life is objectively awesome, you have an active sex life with someone who loves you, and the sexual dissatisfaction you feel is within tolerable parameters. 

Then all you have to do is not put your **** into it and wreck everything you value.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

The safe bet is definitely to not get into swinging. 

Swinging definitely is not my thing since casual sex isn't my thing, but i really do enjoy hanging out with swingers. The reason why is simple: They usually aren't boring. 

If there is anything I have learned in life about myself, it's that the only thing that really scares me is boredom. 

I mean, i jump out of airplanes, volunteer for deployments, learn foreign languages, set up businesses and give them away, sponsor convicts, take in homeless people, work with the mentally ill, blah blah blah...

Basically, anything and everything that keeps me from being bored. You would think that swinging would end up on that list, but alas, It is very rare that I am ever turned on by a stranger. I think it has only ever happened once, and only after a full night hanging out, swapping stories, etc.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> The safe bet is definitely to not get into swinging.
> 
> Swinging definitely is not my thing since casual sex isn't my thing, but i really do enjoy hanging out with swingers. The reason why is simple: They usually aren't boring.
> 
> ...


I think you are hitting onto one of the myths of swinging/open. While the whole story and idea of just jumping into bed with a stranger and just abandoning things for the night of wild sex is appealing, it's actually not all that common in my experience. Even within the swinging groups, people tend to get to know one another and for some kind of base relationship before "hooking up". Now it might not be a "spend the rest of my life with you" relationship, or even a "we're best buds, let's go hit a movie and some beers after" level.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. It does and frequently. Just a lot less frequently than it is made out to be. BUT that is also one of the risks if the plan is just swinging/open and that emotional attachments are to be avoided.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> I think you are hitting onto one of the myths of swinging/open. While the whole story and idea of just jumping into bed with a stranger and just abandoning things for the night of wild sex is appealing, it's actually not all that common in my experience. Even within the swinging groups, people tend to get to know one another and for some kind of base relationship before "hooking up". Now it might not be a "spend the rest of my life with you" relationship, or even a "we're best buds, let's go hit a movie and some beers after" level.
> 
> I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. It does and frequently. Just a lot less frequently than it is made out to be. BUT that is also one of the risks if the plan is just swinging/open and that emotional attachments are to be avoided.


This was definitely the case with the couple I know. They got to know people, and the wife made a point of meeting the other wife because so many men lie about having an agreement with their wife.

Unfortunately this comes with risk because people get attached, and sometimes the spouse doesn't look so good anymore. In my friends case she got attached to another guy because there were holes in the marital relationship and the hb thought he could force her to get exactly what he got out of it (no attachment sex).

They are now divorced. It might be worth noting that it was actually HIM that filed thinking that would force her into cutting off the other guy, but she had started to realize he wasn't that great and didn’t fight it. He tried to call off the divorce and she refused.

Ironically she'd actually offered to close the marriage when she first developed feelings for the other guy but hubby didn't want to give up ****ing other women. When things didn't go his way he then wanted to close it but she refused.

I think OP has to consider many possible outcomes here including the possibility that his wife might find someone she likes more. He has to ask himself if this possibility is worth it (because he doesn't know what his opportunities will actually be). Perhaps that answer is yes, there's just no indication he's considered anything beyond possible sex with other women.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Not to hijack (highjack?), but what does it look like to be boring?

People use this word a lot, but I don’t really understand it, and I don’t know that I’d be able to identify it.

Uninteresting? Being still and/or quiet? Living simply? 🤔



As'laDain said:


> They usually aren't boring.
> 
> If there is anything I have learned in life about myself, it's that the only thing that really scares me is boredom.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Not to hijack (highjack?), but what does it look like to be boring?
> 
> People use this word a lot, but I don’t really understand it, and I don’t know that I’d be able to identify it.
> 
> Uninteresting? Being still and/or quiet? Living simply? 🤔


I think "boring" is what the average person (and that could include many of us) actually is.

We don't swing or share, we don't go to nude beaches, we don't have sex in our offices and we don't have the wild and crazy sex life you see on the movies or in porn. We have sex probably around once a week and live normal lives.

Sure, your specifics may be more or less per week and yeah, maybe you went to a nude beach once and yes a few here do some wild stuff but by and large I think many of us lead what might be called "boring" sex lives.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

minimalME said:


> Not to hijack (highjack?), but what does it look like to be boring?
> 
> People use this word a lot, but I don’t really understand it, and I don’t know that I’d be able to identify it.
> 
> Uninteresting? Being still and/or quiet? Living simply? 🤔


Boring is anyone who cannot tell me about or discuss anything that is new, difficult, or dangerous. 

A person could be james bond and still come across as boring to me if they are focused on a topic that doesn't interest me.

It's a flaw of mine. I can't sit still very long.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Not to hijack (highjack?), but what does it look like to be boring?
> 
> People use this word a lot, but I don’t really understand it, and I don’t know that I’d be able to identify it.
> 
> Uninteresting? Being still and/or quiet? Living simply?


Since it's a subjective term, there is no answer to that beyond, "to me it looks like...". Even among kinksters you can get people calling something "boring". "Oh you only do shibari? How boring!" 

It the end we all have to set our own standards of whatever. It's only a problem when we try to impose those standards on someone else, including a partner.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## seadoug105 (Jan 12, 2018)

I see all the ingredients for the year 2020‘s birthday cake here...

gasoline (fwb desire)
matches (asking/pushing her to start swinging)
dumpster (the accumulation of their 22yr “solid” marriage)


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

An earlier poster suggested I might have a porn addiction. This isn't the case. I'm not into masturbation. 

Just watching porn and getting frustrated is worthless to me. 

With this said I have chatted with swingers to learn more. I've chatted with others as well. I'm seeing more broadly into contemporary love and sex life than before. I've come around to a number of conclusions. 

First, there are a lot of lonely women as well as men. Not married and never married. Trying to use sex to fill manY emotional holes in their lives. I'm especially sad at the gorgeous women in their late 20s and early 30s who want kids but are unmarried. To me this says our society is letting them down. We need an economy where good paying jobs exist that allow the natural growth of pairing and forming families. 

Second, there's a lot of short term, grab fun thinking. A good part of this sexual circus is the thrill of being naughty (now called transgressive to set aside moral assessment) as well as pleasure.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

continuing


Third, there's only a tiny, tiny number of people who orient their lives toward sexual pleasure. I suspect a good many of them had precocious early sexual experience.

4th, I think there are many younger people who do not appreciate the value of marriage and kids. To me, they've extended my understanding of what it means to be human. If I didn't have a female perspective on the many things in life, and didn't get the many rewards of parenthood, I would just be simply me, with just a narrow view. (If you can't understand, imagine that you played Little League baseball as a kid; you know what that was like, and as a parent, you now appreciate all the effort it took to make LL games possible, how you should have done things back then to have gotten better results, etc.)

I'm wondering if this overall "it's just me, sex is my thing" comes from a generation of people raised by single mother families; they have real constraints.

Fifth, the industry turns sexual fetishes/ideas into saleable commodities. The most recent commercial trends being to bring back the old racist notion that black men are animals with large penises. This plays into raape fantasies (which are an old "I was forced to have sex, it's not my fault" good-girl B.S. explanation/moral abnegation). And the trend that anal sex is something really, really super good. I can remember when bisexuality was being pushed to the public. There are trends getting sold to people.

In the end, I'm most saddened, very deeply, by the younger women, 18 or so, who are jades, who seek out degradation as a responsibility-free pleasure. Who believe random casual sex adds up to something, rather than whittling you down emotionally. Who are disconnected from living more fully.

Our society is doing a really bad job of allowing people chances at happiness. Instead, its porn and video games and getting stoned and stupid in your lonely apartment. Disconnected from much of the world around you. But yeah, plenty of sad, lonely people.

Religious? No, this argument can be made completely without religious belief. The social scientists studying human happiness can tell us much about what makes us happy.

With this said, I still think sex as an activity changes as you go through life. It's a major bond when young, then something that keeps people together as the children are raised, and when the kids are gone, and the pair is more mature dealing with people, themselves, then perhaps its not destructive to have sex with others on a basis that keeps the marriage relationship intact.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So, are you going to bring this up with your wife?


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

A lot I'm processing. More notions:

--the internet has freed up women enormously, by reducing substantially the dangers of finding men. Why even go out with friends to a bar? you may be much more likely to find someone compatible online. In the search for sex, women always hold the power; they attract and can refuse. Online means a "direct purchase" of what the woman's looking for.

(Of course if this avenue was open to me when I was in the 20s I'd be wearing myself out on "dates").

--I worry a lot about my nephews, in their 20s, going through this kind of stuff. There's a lot to be said about building relationships, even if it's only in order to have sex. Does this emotionally stunt younger people, who are already being emotionally disconnected from other human beings through video games and porn? Again, the loneliness/hyper-individuality stuff.

--I like women generally, and feel I gain from hearing their perspectives, especially on personal matters like friendship, relationships, family, kids. I grew up a strong individual, so hearing this perspective is valuable. But would I appreciate women if my only developmental contact was work and one-off sex? Not really sharing intimacy.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> So, are you going to bring this up with your wife?


We've got a "romantic get-away" scheduled in late January. Some of this, yes. Not going to talk so much about swinging or an open relationship/FWB thing. But about doing more sexually as a couple.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

. . . we'll see how that goes. I'm just more adventurous and eager to do more sexually.

Also other notes:

online, I'm amazed at how needy women are for adulation for their looks and body. In my experience, men think it's nice to be complimented but don't expect or need this any.

I'm also amazed at the women searching for degradation and **** and abuse talk. I grew up physically abused and have no interest in making violence, so this dimension is weird to me, although I can appreciate what's going on with the master/slave dynamic and rough sex.

There are a lot of lonely men. Divorce drives a lot of nuttiness.

I'm a bit of a leader in my community. For years. And getting found out would be tough on me. And my extended family which is also involved and known. I can't appreciate men and women who don't care about their public perception, willing to post their pictures on sites, saying they're up for anonymous one-time sex. 

This said, I've come to learn that women are much more sexually interested than I'd known before.

I don't much appreciate the beauty of the male form, don't know what women find sexy, but apparently women find things they much like.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.



Good life advice 😀


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I
> 
> 
> Some of the smartest guys I know are completely and utterly clueless when it comes to women.
> ...


You are so right. Highly intelligent men are so often very naive and clueless when it comes to relationships. My husband is a scientist with a PHD and he will tell you himself that for much of his life he was totally clueless when it came to women.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The Mighty Fred said:


> We've got a "romantic get-away" scheduled in late January. Some of this, yes. Not going to talk so much about swinging or an open relationship/FWB thing. But about doing more sexually as a couple.


If you do mention swinging or having sex with others be prepared for a bomb to go off.

What concerns me a lot is that you seem to be doing a lot of finding out and research about ways you can basically have sex with other women in say swinging or being an 'open marriage', when not once have you even mentioned it to your wife. What will you do when/if she just plain says no way, thats not what marriage is about which I highly suspect she will as most women would. When she is very hurt and feels betrayed?
Will you then make that choice between either your family or sex with other women? Believe me your children are NOT going to take your side in this. The more you dwell on it and fantasize about it the more let down you will feel when your faithful wife reacts badly because thats seems to be what you spend a lot of time thinking about . I hope you will do the right thing and start focusing on her and your family rather than other women.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> The safe bet is definitely to not get into swinging.
> 
> Swinging definitely is not my thing since casual sex isn't my thing, but i really do enjoy hanging out with swingers. The reason why is simple: They usually aren't boring.
> 
> ...


You see, I would find swingers totally boring because they just wouldnt be on the same wave length as I am and I would have no interest whatsoever in their way of life.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


If you play with fire you will get burnt.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The Mighty Fred said:


> continuing
> 
> 
> Third, there's only a tiny, tiny number of people who orient their lives toward sexual pleasure. I suspect a good many of them had precocious early sexual experience.
> ...


Having sex with others doesn't keep the marriage relationship intact in anyway, thats what you seem clueless about. It destroys the marriage covenant, breaks the vows, rips up the promises and messes up the intimacy. You are walking on very thin ice and risking loosing your whole family. I hope its worth it. Maybe start thinking with your brain rather than your p***s.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> You see, I would find swingers totally boring because they just wouldnt be on the same wave length as I am and I would have no interest whatsoever in their way of life.


You probably really have something there. It can be hard enough to find interesting women (seriously, many are hung up on fashion and nonsense). But it might be that swinging wives are just trying to maximize pleasure, bit by bit. And there seems to be such a sex-focus that most people would think there are other things to life than that.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

As'laDain said:


> The safe bet is definitely to not get into swinging.
> 
> Swinging definitely is not my thing since casual sex isn't my thing, but i really do enjoy hanging out with swingers. The reason why is simple: They usually aren't boring.
> 
> ...


An interesting perspective. I think you're describing a lot of me. I think the swinging thing requires that ability to be instantly turned-on. But that might be a learned thing, though. 
An FWB is more my style. THIS said, it's all damn frustrating.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> You see, I would find swingers totally boring because they just wouldnt be on the same wave length as I am and I would have no interest whatsoever in their way of life.


What makes you think I talk about lifestyles with them?

I have met engineers, doctors, professors, billionaire entrepreneurs, political activists, wildlife rehabilitators, computer researchers, etc etc, etc, In swingers groups.

When I say they usually aren't boring, it has nothing to do with the fact that they swing. The fact that they like sex is often the most boring thing about them.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

The Mighty Fred said:


> An interesting perspective. I think you're describing a lot of me. I think the swinging thing requires that ability to be instantly turned-on. But that might be a learned thing, though.
> An FWB is more my style. THIS said, it's all damn frustrating.


You could just do what I do... Go to swingers events/clubs, but tell them that you are still trying to decide if it's for you, and that you haven't really "played" yet. Most of them won't push. A lot of times, people find themselves in a situation where there just isn't anyone pressing their buttons. Those are actually the ones that i go to meet lol. 

I never look for sex. I look for other people who are bored. 

That is, if you and your wife are both comfortable with it. 

Just going to a swingers club doesn't mean you have to have sex with anyone. So far, i have never played with anyone i met at a club. I still enjoyed going. 

You will find every kind of people at them. I find that they are usually up for new experiences, so they will often listen to you and consider your own experiences. Basically, they don't judge. 

Just don't drag your wife to a swingers club if she is against the idea...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> What makes you think I talk about lifestyles with them?
> 
> I have met engineers, doctors, professors, billionaire entrepreneurs, political activists, wildlife rehabilitators, computer researchers, etc etc, etc, In swingers groups.
> 
> When I say they usually aren't boring, it has nothing to do with the fact that they swing. The fact that they like sex is often the most boring thing about them.


Didnt mean that just their lifestyles sexually would make them boring, just that we would have little in common. How we live in one area can often reflect on how we live in another.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Didnt mean that just their lifestyles sexually would make them boring, just that we would have little in common. How we live in one area can often reflect on how we live in another.


Chances are, you know swingers and have no idea. 

They might have little in common with you. That's true. I would probably find you boring because you only seem to talk about morality, religion, tradition, etc. 

But, maybe you secretly breed new strains of guppies and i just don't know about it. 

I named a few strains of guppies that are being sold today. I would find that conversation interesting.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> You see, I would find swingers totally boring because they just wouldnt be on the same wave length as I am and I would have no interest whatsoever in their way of life.


Ironically enough, you might already know swingers. Not everyone who knows me knows about my poly or kink lives. For that matter if I know it is something they have an aversion to, I go to lengths to not bring it up around them. I won't hide, lie or deny if they ask, but I also won't put it into their face. And that is the common community attitude. So in reality, you might well know and not find boring more swingers than you realize.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> An interesting perspective. I think you're describing a lot of me. I think the swinging thing requires that ability to be instantly turned-on. But that might be a learned thing, though.
> An FWB is more my style. THIS said, it's all damn frustrating.


FWB _is_ swinging if at least one is married. And no, it doesn't require the ability to be instantly turned on. I think you might be caught on the stereotype of going to a swinging party and having sex with random never met before people. In reality, most swingers get to know other swingers in their local community first. Especially since STI awareness is much greater than the early years of open swinging. Vetting is actually a thing nowadays.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> What makes you think I talk about lifestyles with them?
> 
> I have met engineers, doctors, professors, billionaire entrepreneurs, political activists, wildlife rehabilitators, computer researchers, etc etc, etc, In swingers groups.
> 
> When I say they usually aren't boring, it has nothing to do with the fact that they swing. The fact that they like sex is often the most boring thing about them.


I make the same observations about our local BDSM munch group. We have more conversations about geek stuff, or dad joke competitions than we do "shop talk".

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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

maquiscat, I gotta say I'm pretty sure an older couple that my wife and I knew and hung around (their daughter was my wife's best friend) were swingers. Felt a bit uncomfortable because the man was over-sexualizing in much of his comments, talk. Feeling about 75% inappropriate or over the top at times.

Had this sense for a long time. . . and then we visited them and they had internet friends from Australia over for a week's visit to their community in Cornfield, Midwest, a couple.

Are swingers just more concerned about their sexual pleasure than most folks? I mean, sex is nice, but I'm pretty multivariate in interests.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

As'laDain said:


> What makes you think I talk about lifestyles with them?
> 
> I have met engineers, doctors, professors, billionaire entrepreneurs, political activists, wildlife rehabilitators, computer researchers, etc etc, etc, In swingers groups.
> 
> When I say they usually aren't boring, it has nothing to do with the fact that they swing. The fact that they like sex is often the most boring thing about them.


'
Right now, billionaire entrepreneurs are on my **** list.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I think "boring" is what the average person (and that could include many of us) actually is.
> 
> We don't swing or share, we don't go to nude beaches, we don't have sex in our offices and we don't have the wild and crazy sex life you see on the movies or in porn. We have sex probably around once a week and live normal lives.
> 
> Sure, your specifics may be more or less per week and yeah, maybe you went to a nude beach once and yes a few here do some wild stuff but by and large I think many of us lead what might be called "boring" sex lives.


I think "boring" is the name-calling done by those who get called "immoral."

I'm kind of wondering if swingers just focus a lot more on sex than others. I don't think you can discount that humans are judging/evaluating/morality-making creatures, so pooh-poohing someone as "moral" doesn't click here. We're ALL moral.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

The Mighty Fred said:


> maquiscat, I gotta say I'm pretty sure an older couple that my wife and I knew and hung around (their daughter was my wife's best friend) were swingers. Felt a bit uncomfortable because the man was over-sexualizing in much of his comments, talk. Feeling about 75% inappropriate or over the top at times.
> 
> Had this sense for a long time. . . and then we visited them and they had internet friends from Australia over for a week's visit to their community in Cornfield, Midwest, a couple.
> 
> Are swingers just more concerned about their sexual pleasure than most folks? I mean, sex is nice, but I'm pretty multivariate in interests.


Don't get me wrong. There are those out there that do announce their presence and preferences to the world at large. But as with most things, they are the visible minority.

Remember that swinging is about sex not relationships. It is part of the ENM grouping, along with polyamory. A person can be both poly and swinging/open. Now I'm not sure about the context of your question so I will add here, that swingers are often as concerned for their partner's sexual pleasure as well as their own, be it their long term partner, or the one for the night.

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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

ha! I'm more a giver than a taker, although dominant


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

The Mighty Fred said:


> An earlier poster suggested I might have a porn addiction. This isn't the case. I'm not into masturbation.
> 
> Just watching porn and getting frustrated is worthless to me.
> 
> ...


this is a unrealistic dating market value based on false assumptions.
they were attractive enough at 20 to get some ONS with some alpha 
male 10's. this delusion was they ignored the fact that they could not 
get any of these alpha men to have a relationship.

then more delusion with all the likes they get with OLD. more self
inflated dating market value.

men did not turn down a women if they did not earn a high income.
and in the past many women did not have high incomes.
now many women do. and they refuse to have a relationship with
men that do not have a high income.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

The Mighty Fred said:


> I think "boring" is the name-calling done by those who get called "immoral."
> 
> I'm kind of wondering if swingers just focus a lot more on sex than others. I don't think you can discount that humans are judging/evaluating/morality-making creatures, so pooh-poohing someone as "moral" doesn't click here. We're ALL moral.


Have to disagree we are not all moral.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

I think your statement is kind of what I mean, you have a sincere judgment on my assertion.


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## wagon maker (Feb 27, 2020)

The Mighty Fred said:


> My wife and I are getting to be an older couple married 22 years, with one son. We have an enormously happy marriage so much so that people almost seem to look up to us or give the impression they're jealous. We get along so well.
> 
> I'm considering proposing swinging to her. This is because I'm 57 and enjoy knowing women and enjoy sex. I like women and sex.
> 
> ...


have u talked to her about it, if she isn't interested in swinging, think about just sharing her with another guy, she would become a hotwife, that is where a husband shares his wife with another guy but doesn't have sex with other women,. if u want we can talk by email if it is ok to give email addresses on here


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## wagon maker (Feb 27, 2020)

have u asked her about it? if she says no to swinging, maybe u might want her to become a hotwife, like mine. that is where u share her with another guy & u don't have sex with other women. if u want to talk more about it, we can do email if it is ok to give email addresses on here. let me know.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

wagon maker said:


> have u asked her about it? if she says no to swinging, maybe u might want her to become a hotwife, like mine. that is where u share her with another guy & u don't have sex with other women. if u want to talk more about it, we can do email if it is ok to give email addresses on here. let me know.


The whole point is that he wants to have sex with other women.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Two British entertainers, a married couple, were swingers at the height of their career. 

Why did they stop swinging?
_
Ian revealed that their wildest antics happened when they were at their most famous, touring in the 1980s.

"I think we were suddenly top of the bill on a fabulous tour that was doing great business and everyone roundabout us was having a whale of a time and we thought we are missing out here."

Janette added: "We weren't behind each other's backs. We knew what each other was sort of up to."

Husband Ian said: "But then we thought, 'we are playing with fire here'. What we started to worry about was that the other people were getting jealous."_

Scots stars The Krankies reveal swinging 'ding dongs'


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I can understand possibly wanting to have an orgy with a group of people you know and are attracted to and might get around to boinking anyway, but I can't understand wanting to swing with some random middle-aged people. But then, that's me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I can understand possibly wanting to have an orgy with a group of people you know and are attracted to and might get around to boinking anyway, but I can't understand wanting to swing with some random middle-aged people. But then, that's me.


I cant thnk of much worse than an orgy.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> I cant thnk of much worse than an orgy.


An orgy with oldies.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I can understand possibly wanting to have an orgy with a group of people you know and are attracted to and might get around to boinking anyway, but I can't understand wanting to swing with some random middle-aged people. But then, that's me.


You've kind of got a point there, you know.

I'm thinking now just a FWB for my wife and me, once a month. But everybody likes that idea.

re: Hotwife I was out camping with the family one weekend in a state park, and walking past the camp host's trailer saw their little stick-in name sign, and "Hotwife was written right on it! I guess after the campfire you kin just mosey on down. . .

Surprised at the overtness there. Course not everyone knows the term.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, that is brazen!


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, that is brazen!


I know. I saw that and took a double take.

ummm, that's really different strokes for different folks. I'm thinking the camp host gig usually goes one month at one camp, then a month at some other camp, then a month at another, etc., etc.

So maybe she was getting good business?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The Mighty Fred said:


> You've kind of got a point there, you know.
> 
> I'm thinking now just a FWB for my wife and me, once a month. But everybody likes that idea.
> 
> ...


A FWB once a month for your wife and you?

So, she's interested in that?

I will bet you my next paycheck she's not.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

He may have been making money off her, very likely.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Livvie said:


> A FWB once a month for your wife and you?
> 
> So, she's interested in that?
> 
> I will bet you my next paycheck she's not.


From everything said, she's certainly not interested. But it's great if you're both into it and can make it work.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> He may have been making money off her, very likely.


interesting point, hadn't considered it.

Totally off point: I know you're keen on music. I used to be in a cover band that did 60s, 70s music. Fun to do gigs, play on stage, etc.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well you certainly did it at the best possible time, the Golden age of rock and roll. I know you had a good time.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The Mighty Fred said:


> You've kind of got a point there, you know.
> 
> I'm thinking now just a FWB for my wife and me, once a month. But everybody likes that idea.
> 
> ...


Have you asked your wife yet? What is the point of planning and investigating and filling your mind with all this stuff if you havent even asked her? Do you HONESTLY think she will be ok with you having sex with other women? Wanting her to have sex with another man? 
What will you do if she does what 99% of women would do and says no? Cheat behind her back? End the marriage? 
Are you still willing to risk ruining your marriage by persuing all of this? Do you have a friend in mind?


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