# Dating a woman, starting to feel like i am getting clingy/needy



## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

So, back story. 

I have been divorced over a year now, split up nearly 18 months. Had the rebound relationship around the time divorce was final and it lasted 6 months or so, and was serious.

I had a WAW due to being the 'nice guy'. I didnt know what any of that meant during my marriage-- though honestly I am glad it happened b/c I dont want my ex w back. But I did study a lot, from PUA to basic attraction, including MMSLP and NMMNG. 

So, now I met a great girl on match. I am 43 with 2 young kids, she is 38 with kids same ages. Our initial dates have consisted of basically 40 mins or so after work, we grab a drink before we have to get our kids. (Turns out we had met briefly as our kids go to the same school). Im casual, light, but constant eye contact and listening. About the third time we do this it is a Friday and I pull her in as she is about to leave and kiss her. The next night, she is out early evening w/ friends and texts asking what I am up to. She says she is out and 'not feeling it'. I tell her to call me if she wants to make out, and a few mins later she asks if we can order in and watch tv at my house. 

She comes over in pajamas, buys me dinner and we watch tv. Both were really tired from drinking/out friday night, but it ends up sex on the couch (this after about 3 prev 'happy hours'). She also tells me, before that happened, that due to finances her and ex still living in same house-- (she has been separated over a year but div just final). Honestly, at this point i do not care at all. I like her but dont feel that invested so ok w/ just hanging out, getting to know her. 

Last week I text her asking her out on saturday-- we both have kids and I know that is the one night she has "off". Her and her ex take turns and they dont ask each other what they are doing. Anyway, we meet up for a quick drink, have fun talking and laughing, like we always do, and she says yes to saturday. 

Saturday we go out to a really nice itialian restaurant, she knows it is only open thurs-sat from 5-10 so appreciates that it is a nice place. We dont really talk about it, but just go back to my place after. I pour a glass of wine but before either of us drink, we are in the bedroom. Then later, lots of conversation, not all of it funny this time though several stories we would definitely not share on a first date that were hilarious from both sides. Then we end up in the bedroom again later, and she leaves at 3 am. 

Pretty continuous texting the last 10 days or so, at least daily. There is really nothing wrong and I have not shown any weakness-- neediness-- yet, in the form of bringing up serious subjects about 'us'. I know she is still on match as it shows 'active within 24 hours' usually, which i am sure she notices. It also showed me that yesterday she looked at my profile again-- which she has done maybe once a week for the last month. 

I know that women will disagree and say I should show my true feelings-- ie I would LIKE for us to be exclusive-- however this 'nice guy' behaviour is the main reason I am not married any more and I do not want to make those mistakes again. 

So now, she has an incredibly busy week ahead, though it also includes down time-- travelling for work , by bus. I texted her that basically I know she is going to be really busy so I would let her do her thing and let her say hi when she has the time to do so. Probably dumb and unnecessary, but its done. 

Again, I know I cannot let my prior beta character show or she WILL be turned off-- and thus far I have gotten a couple messages stating, i like how you take control (in situations in general, was not referring to sex) and, I like that you know what you want. 

Now I am feeling like i want to hear from her, and when i see on match, i am feeling like I want her not to being dating others as well as myself. I know I need to wait for her to bring this up. How can I bring back my inner strength to show to her that I am totally cool with this and at the same time have true confidence? Part of me dealing with it is honestly just by getting this out in writing but would love to hear from guys who have been there and found positive strategies and actions from these feelings.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I would think that one of the things you'd learned from NMMNG is that it's okay to be honest about what you really want and need. Right now, you're waiting around, hoping she notices that you're a great catch and decides on her own that she wants to be exclusive. You're waiting for her to make the move you want, with no real clues from you as to what that might be. And it sounds like you're starting to feel a little hurt that she hasn't guessed your intentions and done what you'd like. That's a pretty classic covert contract. 

Speaking as a woman, I'd find it much more attractive if you'd just tell me what you want. I don't expect men I date to read my mind. I prefer they offer me the courtesy of not expecting me to read theirs. Use your words. Be upfront about what you want/need. Failing to communicate what you want is not a position of strength. Communicating what you want and being strong enough to handle the response, whatever that may be, is.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think you are picking women you know things won't work out with. She may not be your rebound relationship. I am thinking you are hers. I have been dating post divorce for years now and one truth I have found is that you can't build a new and healthy relationship while you still have things going on with the last one, that is what a rebound relationship is and why they fail.... She lives with her ex? That means she still has ties to him no matter if she wants to or not. They have kids yes and will always be involved somewhat but living together can bring all sorts of problems 

You are dating and having a good time. She sounds like she wants to keep it casual as well. I wouldn't advise you to get your heart involved here or you're going to get hurt. Sooner or later the talk about "I'm finally on my own and need some me time" is going to come out


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## unhappy74 (Mar 30, 2015)

It sounds like you have an attachment to people when you start sleeping with them. It takes a certain kind of guy to seperate the two (person & sex). If you are starting to have feelings for this women you have to go ahead and say something. At least ask her if your the only guy she's seeing or sleeping with. Then you can make an informed decision to stay in it on her terms or make other women an option. You can't fool yourself into saying it doesn't bother you that she's still on match or maybe dating other men, when it clearly bothers you. Take the shot before you end up doing something foolish later on. Good Luck


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

In my initial reading of the OP, I somehow missed the fact that this woman is still living with her ex-husband. Whole lotta potential drama there. I suggest finding someone who has completely finished the prior relationship - including currently living sans-partner or former partner - to date.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

This:



Morcoll said:


> Honestly, at this point i do not care at all. I like her but dont feel that invested so ok w/ just hanging out, getting to know her.


Isn't the same as this:



Morcoll said:


> I know that women will disagree and say I should show my true feelings-- ie I would LIKE for us to be exclusive
> 
> Now I am feeling like i want to hear from her, and when i see on match, i am feeling like I want her not to being dating others as well as myself. I know I need to wait for her to bring this up.


What do you want? 

Do you want to see only her? then tell her. If you don't, say nothing.

I would be cautious though, cause this to me is whack:



Morcoll said:


> She also tells me, before that happened, that due to finances her and ex still living in same house-- (she has been separated over a year but div just final)


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Rowan said:


> In my initial reading of the OP, I somehow missed the fact that this woman is still living with her ex-husband. Whole lotta potential drama there. I suggest finding someone who has completely finished the prior relationship - including currently living sans-partner or former partner - to date.


there is no way I would seriously date a newly D'd woman who was still in the same house as the ex. I think the OP is her rebound relationship. She needs the fun and sex to build herself up. Unless, of course, she is a cheater and that led to the D.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I think you may be _her_ rebound relationship.

I say slow things down a little bit...and regain some rational perspective concerning the viability of this actually being a long-term relationship.

Even if you both reach an agreement to become exclusive...there are some factors that are going to challenge things: two people with four kids between them, two ex-spouses and the drama involved with custody, GF's financial struggles, and GF's very recent divorce. These will require a very honest and calculated assessment.

As for your concerns of "nice guy" tendencies, look to your own personal integrity...who you are, what you believe, what you will accept or not accept...and standing by these values w/o compromise. You will know that you aren't ready if you are getting lost in someone else again, instead of standing on your own feet and moving in your own momentum...where a quality women of your choice will be inspired to come alongside where you are already heading.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Rowan said:


> I would think that one of the things you'd learned from NMMNG is that it's okay to be honest about what you really want and need. Right now, you're waiting around, hoping she notices that you're a great catch and decides on her own that she wants to be exclusive. You're waiting for her to make the move you want, with no real clues from you as to what that might be. * And it sounds like you're starting to feel a little hurt that she hasn't guessed your intentions and done what you'd like. That's a pretty classic covert contract. *
> 
> Speaking as a woman, I'd find it much more attractive if you'd just tell me what you want. I don't expect men I date to read my mind. I prefer they offer me the courtesy of not expecting me to read theirs. Use your words. Be upfront about what you want/need. Failing to communicate what you want is not a position of strength. Communicating what you want and being strong enough to handle the response, whatever that may be, is.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

If you want it to be exclusive- just tell her that. If she isn't into it...move on. But sitting around waiting for her do do what you want/hope...is pretty much the exact opposite of what she told you she liked about you.

BUT....She sounds like a HUGE ball of Drama/Potential Drama/Disaster/Baby Momma/Baby Daddy Drama all rolled into one. If you can handle that...Great...But if you even have half a doubt -follow your gut. 

I haven't dated in Better than 24ish years...But my Sons seem to use a 5 to 1 rule. They call/Text/email once for every 5 times they hear from a girl...seems to work for them. They also tend to be working on at least 2 if not 3 or more at a time. Maybe try that---there are WAY more females than males roaming around this planet. If your not giving a few of them a shot -than your just being unfair...


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

You are, whether intentional or not, putting all your eggs in one basket. You're spending a considerable amount of your free time with one woman. Of course if you do this enough you're going to build a connection.

The problem with "nice guys" is that it is a form of codependency. You get your validation from women. By building these kinds of relationships you are allowing yourself to get your validation fix. The downside is that you are going to not be able to look objectively at this woman because she's supplying a very crucial need for you, and she is the only one you are setting up to do this.

One of the best ways I found to get out of that trap is to date multiple women at once. By doing that you don't become clingy or needy with any one woman, because you have others to fall back on. It allows you to look much more objectively at your relationships, and you won't assign a higher value to a woman who doesn't deserve it.

In this case, you can probably objectively realize why this is not a good woman to be attached too. She's still married, living with ex, and obviously still looking around. However, unless you feel you have other prospects, you're going to have a hard time matching your heart to your brain.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Worse than you being her rebound relationship, have you considered that maybe you are her exit affair? Or worse a covert, MLC affair for her?

"I'm divorced, well technically separated... It's an in house separation" is a rationale very commonly used by cheaters.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

As long as her and her husband live in the same house you cannot build on your relationship.

Not jusdging your ladyfriend's character but you never know what goes on in the same house at night.

That and the fact that they have kids and assetts together make it all the more likely she might return to him again.

In short unless she moves in with you or moves away from the husband your relationship will never progress beyond sex.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

Well, I did not realize this ever even got posted on here. Thanks for the replies. I understand the possibilities that abound regarding her living w/ her ex currently and while she is a very positive person to be around, her only complaint about the divorce is that she wants the whole thing over-- the divorce part is, but the moving on part. 

That said, I do understand possible issues and the real possibility that I am a rebound for her. A probability I might even say, because when I was going through my divorce I did live w my ex for a short time and started a rebound relationship that lasted about 7 months before HER neediness caused me to reboot and spend a few months on my own for the first time since marriage. 

My thing in posting this is about being too needy. I think CO was closest in his assessment re dating others. I don't know how much time I have for that honestly but I will try hard not to close myself off. 

I just made another post re this relationship, again not realizing this one had ever been posted. Thanks.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

*My current post-divorce relationship*

Background-- I am early 40s, divorced over a year, 3 yo son/7 yo daughter; split custody. 

Went on Match and met a very pretty woman, late 30s, turns out her son is in my daughter's school and in same grade, plus she also has a daughter, 5. Her niece is one of my daughter's friends-- we figured this out when we first were talking through match.com and she said 'I think my niece was at your daughter's party!"

So anyway, here divorce is very new, like 2 months, and for financial reasons they are still in the house together. Yes, she has a lot going on and this is just casual. I understand the pitfalls, she says she is not sad about the divorce and has been out of it for a few years and finally realized how much she looked forward to his business trips so she could relax and be happy. Just the gist. I really do not want this to be the focus of responses. Please see below. 


But, when I was married I was the guy they modeled No More Mr Nice Guy after. And after a lot of introspection, my own failed rebound situation, more work, IC etc, I am in a totally different place. I can attract women by being bold and decisive, and open up with vulnerability and confidence, as I love myself more and am not worried that she wont like me, etc. Believe me, I never had low self esteem, but was not good with women I was actually attracted to. 

So, honestly, now she sees me as easy going, confident, bold-- I escalated w/ her easily and not awkwardly. I know this sounds like pick up stuff but it was more about learning attraction through understanding human nature, no more mr. nicee guy/married man sex life primer, mark madson's attracting women through honesty, and then reading serious social workers like Brene Brown, and other spiritual stuff, like Broken Open and The Untethered Soul. 

I guess my question is, now that we are seeing other 2 or sometimes 3 times a week, how do I keep it real and still interesting? As we go forward and see each other more, I am concerned about reverting to that 'yes' man that I was for my ex wife, which drove away her attraction. 

Any aware of such situations, with experience or insight, much appreciated.

Edit: I also posted this in men's lounge but interested in responses from people here, and edited to also note that I am aware of the very real possibility that I am her rebound situation; while almost every relationship ends in break up, I am more focused now on making the best of it and continuing to enjoy getting to know each other.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

*Re: My current post-divorce relationship*



> I guess my question is, now that we are seeing other 2 or sometimes 3 times a week, how do I keep it real and still interesting? As we go forward and see each other more, I am concerned about reverting to that 'yes' man that I was for my ex wife, which drove away her attraction.


You are already that "yes" man. You have no boundries by dating someone who is living with her ex husband. She is using you. You can't fake life. You want to keep it interesting? Be yourself, have some self respect. 



> So anyway, here divorce is very new, like 2 months, and for financial reasons they are still in the house together. Yes, she has a lot going on and this is just casual. I understand the pitfalls, she says she is not sad about the divorce and has been out of it for a few years and finally realized how much she looked forward to his business trips so she could relax and be happy. Just the gist. I really do not want this to be the focus of responses. Please see below.


Well. This will be the focus of the responses because this is a clusterfrick in the making.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

*Re: My current post-divorce relationship*

You are already that "yes" man. You have no boundries by dating someone who is living with her ex husband. She is using you. You can't fake life. You want to keep it interesting? Be yourself, have some self respect. 

**********************

This is a little hard to follow. Not sure exactly what are you referencing. Are these separate answers? Please clarify and elaborate.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

*Re: My current post-divorce relationship*



Morcoll said:


> You are already that "yes" man. You have no boundries by dating someone who is living with her ex husband. She is using you. You can't fake life. You want to keep it interesting? Be yourself, have some self respect.
> 
> **********************
> 
> This is a little hard to follow. Not sure exactly what are you referencing. Are these separate answers? Please clarify and elaborate.


D2H is saying you are content with taking her scraps off the table. She is not "giving all of herself to you" and it not free to do so, so she is settling for someone who will accept sub-par treatment.

You say it's casual so I dont see the problem, but I would be wary of starting anything because its a quick road back to being a nice guy.

Kinda the social equivalent of a recovering alcoholic choosing to wait in a bar for his friend to pick him up.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: My current post-divorce relationship*

Morcoll,

You started 3 threads this morning on essentially the same topic. So I merged them all into this one thread since this is the one that has the most responses.

Multiple threads on the same topic are not allowed.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

*Re: My current post-divorce relationship*



SamuraiJack said:


> D2H is saying you are content with taking her scraps off the table. She is not "giving all of herself to you" and it not free to do so, so she is settling for someone who will accept sub-par treatment.
> 
> You say it's casual so I dont see the problem, but I would be wary of starting anything because its a quick road back to being a nice guy.
> 
> Kinda the social equivalent of a recovering alcoholic choosing to wait in a bar for his friend to pick him up.


ok so I definitely get that she is not in a place where she can give her all to me. I did not see it that way and instead preferred to appreciate that right now she actually makes time, when possible, to see me. 

But at the same time, I don't know how much of her ALL I really want. I am happy with where we are at and how often we see each other. Ive developed some space in the last year or so and am enjoying it, so while we do try to see each other, neither of us feel smothered. 

My concern is that in the past I have been needy/clingy, and then your note that 'it is a quick road back to the nice guy' thing. I have tried to be decisive and assertive with her. Im trying to be aware of the 'nice guy' thing. 

Can you elaborate on what kind of behaviours I need to watch out for, as far as falling back into those habits? I don't feel like I am doing anything with expectations or having any resentment at all so far. I haven't been this happy in years. (and I don't mean that in reference to her).


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> As we go forward and see each other more, I am concerned about reverting to that 'yes' man that I was for my ex wife, which drove away her attraction.


This is a very "nice guy" type thing to say. It also means you have developed attachment and this relationship isn't as casual as you put it out there as.....at least in your emotional makeup.

Don't be concerned about being yourself. Just be yourself and enjoy life.  That is attractive, and it will attract the right type of women for you.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Dedicated2Her said:


> This is a very "nice guy" type thing to say. It also means you have developed attachment and this relationship isn't as casual as you put it out there as.....at least in your emotional makeup.
> 
> Don't be concerned about being yourself. Just be yourself and enjoy life. That is attractive, and it will attract the right type of women for you.


This is the best way to avoid becoming a Nice Guy.
Work on your boundaries, understand your needs, and place them fairly in front of you.

Watch yourself for signs that you may be trying to either please or placate her when you want sex or attention. Dont be an @ss about it, but make sure that anyone you are with is with you because they want to be with you...not out out of a sense of Duty, Obligation, or Guilt.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

hmmmm...interesting. It is hard to see exactly from her side but I cannot see how she would be with me for those reasons right now. 

Not that she is definitely WITH me. I don't think she is comfortable considering herself attached, but whatever we do have -- FWB maybe?-- I don't see how there can be any guilt obligation or fear. 

Seems like the time we both do have together is mutual desire at this point.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Morcoll said:


> My thing in posting this is about being too needy. I think CO was closest in his assessment re dating others. I don't know how much time I have for that honestly but I will try hard not to close myself off.


You actually need less time to date multiple women. It's kind of contrary to everything you know as a codependent, so I recommend just trying it for a while even if it feels weird.

As a codependent you are normally targeting relationships with someone who wants to move fast and monopolize your time. These relationships have a lot of sparks and a lot of emotions and make you feel really good about yourself. Typically the kind of person that specializes in building fast relationships is someone with a personality disorder, hence the cycle you find yourself in.

When you date multiple people, you aren't building these fast relationships. It actually precludes it because you won't have the time. You might be surprised to see how well it actually works. When I started dating again I was sure that being a recently married guy with kids and who wasn't committing to one woman would detract all potential mates. It was the exact opposite.

You need to change your paradigm on how you view women. Right now you NEED a woman in your life because you aren't comfortable with who you are. You might even want to think about not dating at all for a while, get your life in order before you add chaos to it.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

She's still living with her ex huh?

I'd dig for a credit report, just saying...

If she's got a job, her own place, a car, and pays her bills, chances are she isn't in it for the financial support...

"Oh yeah, now that your peen is wet, I'm broke and living with the ex."


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

gouge_away said:


> She's still living with her ex huh?
> 
> I'd dig for a credit report, just saying...
> 
> ...


She is a teacher, so yes she has a job and a great one, but financially not well off. Her ex is a lawyer but is moving to partner and part of that is investing in $250k worth of firm stock so right now it is difficult for them to support two households though she is ready. 

I totally get what is going on and what may go on. I actually did not date for several months last year, and am comfortable with myself-- I actually am being myself for the first time since I started dating my own ex ten years ago. 

Thanks for the replies. Im definitely wanting to relax and enjoy the moment and not get too caught up in the drama of a new relationship. it is fun so far but I understand the chemical aspect of it so while not wanting to focus on 'endgame' so to speak I do need to be aware of it.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Morcoll said:


> She is a teacher, so yes she has a job and a great one, but financially not well off. Her ex is a lawyer but is moving to partner and part of that is investing in $250k worth of firm stock so right now it is difficult for them to support two households though she is ready.


You know how someone is really ready to leave? They actually leave.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

Dedicated2Her said:


> You know how someone is really ready to leave? They actually leave.


So now you are telling me I should ask her to move in with me. 

Wow. You are useful.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Morcoll said:


> So now you are telling me I should ask her to move in with me.
> 
> Wow. You are useful.


That's not even remotely close to what he meant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Morcoll said:


> So now you are telling me I should ask her to move in with me.
> 
> Wow. You are useful.


What he said is she is not ready to leave her husband.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Morcoll said:


> So now you are telling me I should ask her to move in with me.
> 
> Wow. You are useful.


Morcoll, I have learned never to listen to what people say....always watch what they do. If she was truly ready to leave her house, she would and get her own place.

The issue with the situation is that you don't really know what the scenario is. You only know what she tells you. IF, as a "former" nice guy and betrayed spouse, you had developed healthy dealbreakers to give yourself an opportunity to be in healthy relationships with healthy people, you would understand that there is a very strong possibility that you are now the OM and you are dealing with the Wayward Wife. Your dealbreakers would not allow you to be in the situation.

You are the very definition of a weak man, and you don't fix that with a "couple of months" alone. (sorry to be blunt) It takes hard work and actions that take time to break YEARS of habits. It takes having a good accountability system with others in your life that will tell you the truth and push you every single day. The truth will hurt. It will not be comfortable, however, it is the very thing that allows us to move forward and live a life free of regret.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

Dedicated2Her said:


> Morcoll, I have learned never to listen to what people say....always watch what they do. If she was truly ready to leave her house, she would and get her own place.
> 
> The issue with the situation is that you don't really know what the scenario is. You only know what she tells you. IF, as a "former" nice guy and betrayed spouse, you had developed healthy dealbreakers to give yourself an opportunity to be in healthy relationships with healthy people, you would understand that there is a very strong possibility that you are now the OM and you are dealing with the Wayward Wife. Your dealbreakers would not allow you to be in the situation.
> 
> You are the very definition of a weak man, and you don't fix that with a "couple of months" alone. (sorry to be blunt) It takes hard work and actions that take time to break YEARS of habits. It takes having a good accountability system with others in your life that will tell you the truth and push you every single day. The truth will hurt. It will not be comfortable, however, it is the very thing that allows us to move forward and live a life free of regret.


There are way too many people like you on here. You are not 'sorry' to be blunt, or anything else. You revel in other people's s**t. 

Platitudes, vague catch phrases with no substance and then, the best, personal attacks. You know nothing about how weak I am. I went through divorce, followed immediately by 8 weeks of intensive radiation and chemo. Lost 25% of my body weight and 6 months off work, came back and got promoted 2x in my first 3 months back when I could barely make it through a normal work day. 

Smug. That's what you are.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Morcoll said:


> There are way too many people like you on here. You are not 'sorry' to be blunt, or anything else. You revel in other people's s**t.
> 
> Platitudes, vague catch phrases with no substance and then, the best, personal attacks. You know nothing about how weak I am. I went through divorce, followed immediately by 8 weeks of intensive radiation and chemo. Lost 25% of my body weight and 6 months off work, came back and got promoted 2x in my first 3 months back when I could barely make it through a normal work day.
> 
> Smug. That's what you are.


I don't revel in someone dating a woman who is still living with her family. It's very sad. So many people who get divorced end up creating or being involved in emotional chaos because they fail to establish a baseline of dealbreakers. 

You having perseverance in dealing with a life threatening situation has nothing to do with the capability to have healthy relationships. Engaging in a morally compromising relationship so you can get sex is well......weak. 

I have weaknesses myself. I do weak things sometimes, far less than I used to. Having a therapist and a mentor to call me out on those things helps bring them to light. It stings. But, having them brought to light allows me to make adjustments....therefore.......no regret.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Morcoll, 

You've received a lot of good feedback here, including from Dedicated2Her. I have as well in the past, and due to my desire to have needs and validations filled with attention from women, I ignored much of it. 

Not long after divorce I saw a ton of progression in myself and felt ready to take on the world. I started dating a woman that seemed the perfect fit - great chemistry, shared interests, etc. It was one of those fast moving relationships that helped fill the void (which COGuy spoke of) and provided me with a sense of security, helped boost my self esteem after being a BS. The "needy" that you are trying to avoid. Due to this I chose to ignore (consciously and subconsciously) the red flags that I myself had written down as things to avoid, prior to dating. 

It took nearly a year to realize that we weren't a good fit after all (different boundaries and conflicting views on long term relationships) and still I flipped and flopped, broke up and made up multiple times. 

After that finally ended I repeated the same mistake by jumping into an R with my X. The attempt itself wasn't the big mistake, but how (and why) I did that was. Still too much yearning for comfort and validation. (Nice guy neediness again - less than in the M, less than in post-D dating, but still there) Long story short, that ended in disaster. 

Basically what I'm getting at is, most any man who has identified himself as a "nice guy" and recognized that those nice guy weaknesses (call them tendencies if it's easier to swallow it) helped damage his marriage, will feel reformed long before he really is. 

You may not see it, but to many of us here, the fact that you are even considering an exclusive relationship with a woman who still lives with her XH is a huge blinking red flag shouting that you are not ready.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

If she has a place of her own, and pays her bills, chances are its you she really wants...


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

zillard said:


> Morcoll,
> 
> You've received a lot of good feedback here, including from Dedicated2Her. I have as well in the past, and due to my desire to have needs and validations filled with attention from women, I ignored much of it.
> 
> ...


I get this and appreciate it. Thank you for elaborating and providing something of substance.

I have done a lot of reading on relationships/attraction/biology and so on. I am not going to try to tell you why this woman and I are an amazing match. I think anyone can find reasons for that. Are we using each other? Possibly but each involvement progressively teaches me something new, and my views of myself and relationships in general are growing and these experiences are teaching me something and strengthening me. 

I expect every male/female sexual relationship to end in one way or another, so right now I am going to be open to this. I do acknowledge my growth over the past 15 months and also my likelihood of continuing to not do things exactly perfectly. 

I think with her, I could just tell her I will not see her again until she is on her own, which I am sure what everyone is recommending-- well not 'sure' as some may say move on completely. But I don't see a ton of difference. She was very nervous to tell me when we first met, and honestly I didn't bat an eye. Im not sure that I care, and if I do, Ive learned right now it is mostly chemical. 

In any case, is it weak? No, it's not. Frankly, even if what you say is true, and I do believe it is, I don't have a deal breaker that says will not see someone who is living with ex. I was in that spot, it was miserable for both my ex and I until she was able to move out. When she does move out, I can totally see her exploring her new freedom, singleness, even more, and maybe at that point we move on. I am ok with that possibility, even open to it. 

Things to know about dating divorced women:

1. She’s been put to the test: Emotionally, physically and financially, she has been tested. The divorce process most likely took a toll on her self-esteem, her pocketbook and her appearance. If she is on the market, she has triumphed over heartache and headache to be available to meet new people. Respect what she has been through and you will get the best she has to give.

My Response: Absolutely! Respect the struggle and realize I and other divorced women are phenomenal women! We wear our battle wounds as stripes of honor.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

"Before I get into taking things slowly, I want to address your fear that you are going to “mess things up.” My opinion is that is impossible. Why? Because it is in your control and it isn’t. You could act like a jerk, say something really offensive, or not treat her nicely, and that would mess things up. Those things are in your control, and seem like an improbability. As far as what you can’t control, (which is HER), don’t worry about it. My advice is, just keep being you, and have the attitude of, ‘I am who I am. She likes me or she doesn’t.’ It’s as simple as that. 

Regarding taking things slow, I completely agree with Jason’s post, that you shouldn’t mistake the honeymoon phase (which you are clearly in) for love. I believe everyone is on their best behavior for at least 2 years, especially after a divorce, so my opinion would be DO NOT put a ring on her finger for at least 2 years.

All that said, I disagree with Jason that you should “date a few different people.” I personally have never been very good at dating more than one person at a time. If you really like this woman, there is nothing wrong with spending all your free nights with her. “Take it slowly” to me means nothing more than don’t get married.

A relationship is going to be what it’s going to be and is beyond our control a lot of the time. If you and this woman decide to see each other every night for the next month, it’s just going to happen that way. It could turn out blissful, or it could crash and burn. I hope for the former for you!

Whatever happens, the lesson in all of this is that your heart is healthy and capable of loving again, and that is amazing, isn’t it? It sounds like you have been lonely for such a long time, so enjoy this woman. These are good times for you. Let yourself feel like you deserve it.

Take it slow? In the marriage department, yes. In your new relationship, it sounds like your pace is nothing short of someone running the 100 yard dash. And to that, I say so what? Run with it!"


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Morcoll said:


> ...If she is on the market, she has triumphed over heartache and headache to be available to meet new people. Respect what she has been through and you will get the best she has to give.


This is where I personally think you are making a great error in judgement. Just because someone is making themselves available to you does not mean they have overcome anything at all. She may still be going through what she needs to do alone and may not only not have as much as she could to give, but is also delaying the work she needs to do to get there. If she still depends on cohabitating with an ex spouse, she has more to overcome before being truly available.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Lon said:


> This is where I personally think you are making a great error in judgement. Just because someone is making themselves available to you does not mean they have overcome anything at all. She may still be going through what she needs to do alone and may not only not have as much as she could to give, but is also delaying the work she needs to do to get there. If she still depends on cohabitating with an ex spouse, she has more to overcome before being truly available.


I agree. Many people put themselves on the market in order to avoid dealing with their heartache and headache.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

I did not actually write that and am making no assumptions at all regarding what she may or may not have gotten over. Just throwing out differing viewpoints. 

At what point do you live life though? I may not even be available to anyone yet either but I still want to get to know her and/or other women.

I was in the same spot 15 months ago, separated/newly divorced and dating. I get it.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Morcoll said:


> I did not actually write that and am making no assumptions at all regarding what she may or may not have gotten over. Just throwing out differing viewpoints.
> 
> At what point do you live life though? I may not even be available to anyone yet either but I still want to get to know her and/or other women.
> 
> I was in the same spot 15 months ago, separated/newly divorced and dating. I get it.


Sorry for misunderstanding, I thought that you wrote that as a rule you created since you didn't cite it or anything.

Regardless, yes live your own life. Get to know this person, as you have, and when you learn things about them then take appropriate action. In this case you have learned that logistically and emotionally she is not entirely available for a relationship, so ask yourself is it even kind of you to pursue her when there are other women out there that are more ready to date and at least as good a match for you.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

I think as much as that I am asking myself how serious do I want to be? 
How much am I TRULY available anyway? Maybe not much more than her to be honest. 

I am not ready to have my space intruded upon on a permanent basis for sure. 

So at least I have that to counteract the 'chemical ****tail'-- as far as making rash decisions like moving in together. (not that that has ever come up)


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> Again, I know I cannot let my prior beta character show or she WILL be turned off-- and thus far I have gotten a couple messages stating, i like how you take control (in situations in general, was not referring to sex) and, I like that you know what you want.
> 
> Now I am feeling like i want to hear from her, and when i see on match, i am feeling like I want her not to being dating others as well as myself. I know I need to wait for her to bring this up. *How can I bring back my inner strength to show to her that I am totally cool with this and at the same time have true confidence? *Part of me dealing with it is honestly just by getting this out in writing but would love to hear from guys who have been there and found positive strategies and actions from these feelings.


On one hand you second guess yourself in trying to establish exclusivity........




> I think as much as that I am asking myself how serious do I want to be?
> How much am I TRULY available anyway? Maybe not much more than her to be honest.
> 
> I am not ready to have my space intruded upon on a permanent basis for sure.


On the other hand you question how available you are. 

The key to being confident in yourself is knowing and being comfortable with who you are, where you have been, and where you are going. Define a baseline of what you will accept and won't accept and act off of them. 

You are asking how to be confident in asking for something that you feel from a woman. You are asking how not to revert to "nice guy" ways and keep her attention/attraction. You are asking if you are truly available. If you aren't truly available, who cares if you keep her attention? 

I couldn't imagine going through life with that much fear. That's the point. Men are "nice, beta, etc" because of fear.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

Youre the least intuitive poster I have seen in my 4 years on this site. 

First telling me I am the very definition of the word weak, then "I cant imagine going through life with that much fear". 

Don't assume. I am thinking out loud here. You kinda suck at this, to be honest.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

Typically you get more yards receiving than the hand off.

At least this way you know your getting the ball... even if it goes nowhere...


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Morcoll said:


> Youre the least intuitive poster I have seen in my 4 years on this site.
> 
> First telling me I am the very definition of the word weak, then "I cant imagine going through life with that much fear".
> 
> Don't assume. I am thinking out loud here. You kinda suck at this, to be honest.


Says the guy who goes on the Internet asking for advice from strangers, and then sh*ts on people that offer it to him.

Go back to lurking if you can't be respectful.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

You know, telling someone they cannot imagine 'going through life' with that fear, or whatever ridiculous thing, is nothing but condescending and righteous, and, like I said, smug. I know, I know, he is some sort of superior being. But somehow with zero empathy. 

If pointing out the how useless that kind of 'advice' is equals 'sh*t' then so be it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Look, everyone here is offering you good advice. I think you are upset at the execution and I can see why being called a "weak man" set you off but I do think Dedicated means well. 

he just pointed out what the rest of us have - that you pining over a woman (and becoming n'clingy'needy' as your thread title states) is not good because 1. you're both so freshly divorced and 2 she still LIVES with her husband/ex husband.

This is NOT grounds/the foundation for a healthy relationship to start on. Especially not when you are already feeling needy and clingy.

Fact is, I wouldn't recommend ANY MAN or WOMAN date someone who still lives with their spouse/stbx/freshly divorced-from ex-spouse. You both have children. You both probably haven't grieved your divorces. It's not like you can come over and hang out at her house with all that.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

Yes I do appreciate that JB. For now, I am going to accept that it is just more casual. And I know some would disagree with even that. It is fluid but since I made the original post I am more resigned to that and it makes sense that it would be that way. I know I have a long way to go, as does she for sure, but I had a rebound relationship and I would not undo it. It resulted in a good amount of love, great times, sharing and in the end break up, and surely my divorce was part of it-- I was not ready to be fully committed, starting to enjoy being not married, she wanted to get married. 

This may burn out but I am not sure that I would not rather continue to know her, keep it light, and enjoy it than just pull back altogether.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Morcoll said:


> You know, telling someone they cannot imagine 'going through life' with that fear, or whatever ridiculous thing, is nothing but condescending and righteous, and, like I said, smug. I know, I know, he is some sort of superior being. But somehow with zero empathy.
> 
> If pointing out the how useless that kind of 'advice' is equals 'sh*t' then so be it.


He is trying to get you to look far inward at your basic framework, your paradigm. If you didn't have some elements of fear and doubt driving you (like we all do) you would not have created this thread or joined this website. D2H has helped me and at least a few others with getting some real insight about ourselves. I often have not liked the words he's said/written to me, and that's how I know there is some truth to it. And what's more is that your attempts to defend against it or deflect are actually helping improve your chances at self awareness.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

Lon said:


> What he said is she is not ready to leave her husband.


This is incorrect. He is placing a huge amount of guilt on her for being the walk away wife. My wife had the same guilt-- about our marriage and even moreso about our kids-- when she was in that spot, main difference is that I knew pretty quickly it wasn't worth dwelling on. 

Update is that despite the guilt she is moving closer and closer to the point of getting out, despite their financial difficulties. W/ that guilt, he is wanting her to stay there, in the room in their house that she has, and take care of the kids, then occasionally do what she wants. Her and the counselor they work with both realize how ridiculous this is, and frankly she is stressed. I have sat back and stayed out of it, and she doesn't talk about it much. 

Recently I am viewing this more as a casual relationship, though she seems very attached. I understand that right now she is in a very awkward and often tense situation, so maybe I am just an escape. She genuinely is a positive person and appreciates it but I know, even if she doesn't, that when she DOES get her own space the dynamic may change. 

In any case, right now I am ok w/ spending time with her and just enjoying it. Possibly at some point she will want more, or want less, and I am open to either. Ive come to realize that while I do like her very much, I was good before and will continue to be either way. 

That is not to say if, at some point she decides she needs to be alone, etc ( I know I came to that point after my divorce and cancer treatment) it wont be hard for awhile to disengage; though at this point I think it will be more difficult for her. Who knows. Things change but I have decided not to stress about it either way.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

So what's it like sharing time with her at her place, on her sofa, in her kitchen etc, with the H moping around and glaring at you? Does he speak to you? Is he angry at you? To him are you the OM?

Let me guess, you don't actually spend time in her home? Wouldn't you like to? How can you learn anything about a person when their home life is off limits due to their spouse still being there?


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

Lon said:


> So what's it like sharing time with her at her place, on her sofa, in her kitchen etc, with the H moping around and glaring at you? Does he speak to you? Is he angry at you? To him are you the OM?
> 
> Let me guess, you don't actually spend time in her home? Wouldn't you like to? How can you learn anything about a person when their home life is off limits due to their spouse still being there?


Gosh. I don't know. Maybe I should just stop over and hang out and learn everything about her. 

She has expressed a desire for me to be able to come over there, but frankly, she doesn't owe me any more than she has given at this point. I am not trying to marry her and we have not even talked exclusivity, I am just trying to act from a position of personal strength.


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## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

gouge_away said:


> If she has a place of her own, and pays her bills, chances are its you she really wants...


Mine divorce was much easier than most, I know. My ex was out of the marriage before I even knew she wanted divorce, so it hit me hard-- shock at first, then a lot of the other emotional ups and downs, and a lot of worry about the kids (which will probably never go away). 

That said, I found out I had cancer roughly 4 weeks after the divorce was final and that was much harder (the treatment). Divorce was final Feb 2014, last radiation treatment June 9, 2014, back to work Aug 2014. 

Through it all, I have learned life is too short. Try to avoid being a victim if at all possible. Positivity in everything-- it attracts positive people also.


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## forumman83 (Aug 12, 2012)

Is this still going on? Ridiculous...


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