# Results of my 180



## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

so we've been in turmoil for the last few months. Are currently in MC and she's on medication for her depression. 

Thursday marks 90 days since we've had sex, before that was 6 months. 

We were well on our way to getting that number back to zero. 

After a good week, we set some new ways to initiate sex and how to approach the subject a little better. We had Saturday to ourselves so I planned to make love to her all day, so WE could make love that evening. 

Started the day with some consulting work for a couple hours and made a quick $100 bucks doing so. Came home with groceries and food for the week, something that she had expressed concern over where that $$ was coming from earlier in the week. 
I spent as much time as I could with her and the kids for family time, making her and the kids happy for the rest of the day. Made a nice dinner for the family. Then we had couch time, snuggle time. Got the kids bathed and kept the family time going. Doing as much as I could to make love to her all day. Doing all the right things. Everyone is happy, laughing and having a great time. You can't ask for a more perfect day, everything was just right
The kids are finally asleep and it's now OUR time. 

I get into bed with her fully clothed (coming to bed naked with a swinging pee-pee is a turnoff for her) The instant my semi-erection comes in contact with her lower back, (we were in a spoon hug) she triggers. 

The first words out of her mouth are.. 'I have pain' 
This is her trigger for saying NO to me. It's her way of turning off without having to say anything. Let the 'pain' do the talking. Pain is the word I use for her laundry list of excuses to avoid intimate contact. I tried to work through it but in the end, I got up, left the room to go watch porn and masturbate as I always do when she triggers.

Needless to say we didn't have sex that night and I stuck another nail in the resentment board, a board that has fallen from the wall due to the weight of the nails already in it. 

I awoke with her the next morning as she was getting ready for work and explained to her my hurt and feelings over last nights episode. She basically said I don't have time for this and sorry I made you feel that way. 

I've been working on doing a 180 and this was enough to put it into action. 

I normally do the majority of 'service' tasks and have dinner ready for us when she walks in the door (she works a 12 hr shift)with a kiss and a smile. We then talk about the day, how was yours, mine was like this. Show off the kids crafts from the day. Then we do family time after dinner, then wash the kids and everyone gets ready for bed. We put the kids down then we have the rest of the night, an hour or two, for us or solo time. 

Today when she came home, the kids were fed and washed and her cold dinner was on a plate on the counter... no kiss, no hug and nothing more than a 'Hi' when she walked in. I handed off the kids, told her dinner's on the counter and then went to the garage and did some work. 

She came in shortly after _asking_ for a kiss and told her I can't right now, I'm busy. After her shower and putting the kids down, she came back to the garage telling me she's going to bed and _asked_ for another kiss, never tried to walk up and hug or even try to steal a kiss, which I would surely have responded to. I calmly and collectedly Told her I'm sorry but I can't do that right now. She just stood there in the doorway with a where is my kiss look on her face before slamming the door and thumping up the stairs. 

I finished up my work, watched a TV show and went to bed at 11:30 like I always do. She was kinda snoring.. but stopped as soon as I started to brush my teeth. I climbed into bed where she was in her 'on my back ready to snuggle position'. I just stuck to my side, got in my sleeping position and after 2 minutes.. she rolled over to her side and went back to sleep with not a single sound nor any attempt to snuggle with me. 

This morning I woke at 6:45.. well after her leave for work time. She left w/out giving the morning kiss and hug. Even with all my years of pain in the marriage, I never miss giving my family a kiss and a hug before I leave for work.

I can't begin to express how much that ground my gears. I put up with your DoDo for years and the second I do it to you, you can't handle it and resort to child like fits.

Would you have done something different or do I just keep on this path of loveless calmness. It's rather refreshing to not have to worry about chasing her and for the first time, I don't feel overly stressed about not having sex with her.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Seems to me you're doing it right. The only problem would be if you gave up too soon and gave in because of her reaction.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

I think you may be on the right path. When she approaches you and finally asks what's wrong (if it ever gets to that point) simply ask her if she's still interested in being married. If she says yes, then calmly tell her that things in theis department have to change and the change must be permanent or you will need to evaluaute "other" options.

After you say that, do not answer any of her follow-up questions about what your other options are.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

The 180 is not a tool to manipulate your wife because you are mad that she isn't giving you sex.

Also, being a good father and helping with your children is not something you do to get sex. 

Sorry, I don't know your story, but this isn't good at all, especially if you are using porn in anger after she "rejects" you. 

Do you love your wife? If you do, you might want to try to think of how she is feeling, instead of just how you are feeling. 

Please don't take this the wrong way, just trying to wonder why she may still be acting this way after so much attentive behavior by you.....Obviously, something else is going on.


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

My desire to do this is to get her to start talking, to finally open up and start a communication channel to identify WHY we have marital problems. She still has not answered any of my questions and complains that her MC only makes her cry. When I ask her about what, she never answers. 

She dropped a bomb the other week about me not making enough money was the reason she's turned off, but with more digging, it didn't explain then why during times when finances were overflowing, we had the same problems. Still waiting for that answer.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

No this is good.. what did you expect to happen?.
How would you have felt if there had been NO reaction?

Just keep doing what you are doing. Don't be rude or unpleasant just go about your busy day. Keep reading over the 180 rules to get them in your head. She may stew over this for a few days. She is probably very confused today...your not behaving the way she expects you too...she must feel very off balance...be assured she is at work thinking and wondering what on earth is going on in your mind.

I applaude you! Your (virtually) sexless marriage must be intolerable and your doing something about it. Doing the 180 will have some sort of impact....i just hope and wish for a happy outcome/impact for you both.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

What other things have you tried before deciding to go the 180 route? Absent other things, I think it might be too extreme as a first step. I would suggest turning down the thermostat, which is a much softer version of the 180, where you give space to her and let her come to you. Then, when you get that question about a kiss, you can tell her you did not think she want one because she is not interested in being with you physically.


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

Here is the back story if anyone cares to read it. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/35903-its-slow-steady-fall-love.html

It was my first post here and I was in a bad state mentally. I've taken the time to work on myself but we are currently stuck waiting for her to express her concerns and needs. She will not talk about this with me no matter how much I try. 

I get the feeling that she won't talk as the truth will come out and if it's what I think it is.. I'll walk as I set my boundaries before we got married and she can't keep her current life. 

The 180 is my way of telling her, if you won't talk, then I can't make emotional time for you until you do.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Screenp2 said:


> The 180 is my way of telling her, if you won't talk, then I can't make emotional time for you until you do.


That's good! Just be sure to make the best of it when she does come out to the garage to ask you something.... Have a calm and simple comeback. Something like what Tall suggested is perfect. That way she has the consequence of her choice.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Screenp2 said:


> Here is the back story if anyone cares to read it.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/35903-its-slow-steady-fall-love.html
> 
> It was my first post here and I was in a bad state mentally. I've taken the time to work on myself but we are currently stuck waiting for her to express her concerns and needs. She will not talk about this with me no matter how much I try.
> ...


Thanks. I might still suggest toning it down to a soft 180, where you are cheerful and fun around the kids, and polite to her, without being hostile, as I mentioned before, but I would also defer to you and your knowledge of your wife and marriage.

I do agree to wait for her to come to you regardignt he issues. Keep you comments short, firm and polite, and wait for her to talk.


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm doing a lite 180. 
I'm keeping up the normal stuff, It's her service items and love that she's not going to get.

Thanks for the comments, they all help me keep this working the way it needs to.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Screenp2 said:


> I'm doing a lite 180.
> I'm keeping up the normal stuff, It's her service items and love that she's not going to get.
> 
> Thanks for the comments, they all help me keep this working the way it needs to.


Remember that the 180 is not about you being an a*shole. It is to emotionally prepare you for the possibility of a life without your wife. 

It is about you working on you.

If you do it right, it might have the good side effect of attracting her to you: when she sees you making positive changes for yourself, and when she feels she is in danger of being left behind.


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> It is to emotionally prepare you for the possibility of a life without your wife.


That is not the result I had in mind but given the circumstances, it surely is a possibility.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Um, if this is example of what you guys call the 180, then you need to stop hawking it all the time and telling men how good they are at it, because this guy is awful.....or maybe the 180 is awful.....if, in fact, this is the 180.

Screenp2, honestly, if your attitude toward your wife for not giving you any is the 180 you learned on these boards, then you need to go somewhere else and learn something new - a new approach, a new personality, a new way of thinking.....something.



Screenp2 said:


> I planned to make love to her all day, so WE could make love that evening.


When I read that line, I knew immediately how that part of your story was going to end. I knew your wife was not going to give you any, and I wouldn't give you any either.

Okay, so here is your first new lessons:

Love is without conditions. I know that when most people see or hear those words, they first think unconditional love means you love someone for who they are. But, that is not what it means. Actually, that would be ridiculous because you can't love a person no matter who, what, or how they are. At least, you really shouldn't, although it would be silly to think you can change a person either.

Unconditional love actually means to love without expecting anything in return. It means no strings attached. So, if you think you can DO something in order to get sex from your wife, then you not only treat her and think of her as your wh*re, but you also fool yourself in thinking she is not aware of your ruse. She and any other woman would resent your lame and feeble attempt at manipulation. Therefore, it gets you nowhere, which is where you ended up. Believe me, when you could no longer hide your plan and made your move, she rolled her eyes to herself and secretly thought "I knew it!" She lost a little respect for you that day and in that instant because the only thing you accomplished was letting her know how little you think of her.

Unconditional love is a way of life. If you are not that great guy every day, then don't become him just to get sex. How do you think she feels knowing you expect her love, affections, and sex are to be purchased for a favor?

Lesson #2:
Try to get a better understanding of what is called the 180. You certainly cannot call your wife childish after acting like a childish fool. I don't have to wonder if you got sex that night either.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Um, this is his wife; not some 2nd date he's trying to seduce. Do you make your husband jump through these hoops to have sex?


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Um, this is his wife; not some 2nd date he's trying to seduce. Do you make your husband jump through these hoops to have sex?


I don't know if you are talking to me but if you are, I hardly suggested he jump through any hoops. I have no idea where you got that from. I was actually suggesting he stop jumping through the stupid hoops he devised for himself.....to either be a great guy or stop the occasional pretense just for the hope of getting sex out of it. I guess I should assume you were not addressing me because your response does not makes sense if you were.


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## Chrysalis (Mar 20, 2012)

This is my first TAM post and it won't be my last. 

River1977, your work ITT is shameful and in clear violation of TAM forum rule #1: "Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect." That's right, I registered just to call you out.

I wonder if, before reading my reasoning below, you even realize how you've contradicted yourself while punishing OP with your arrogant bait-and-switch tactics? If you do realize it, your intent is decidedly anti-positive. If you don't then you are neither as smart nor helpful as you are assertive, something all TAM readers should keep in mind while experiencing your delightful overbearance. 

Now it's your turn to wonder. 'OMG, whatever could he possibly mean???'

My claim is as follows. In your arguments you have used the same cliche twice, yet with 100% opposite conclusions, against the _same man_, regarding the _same issue_ and even the _same marriage_, admonishing him each time in with your trademark dismissive tone that he needs to straighten up and fly right. Either you are blissfully unaware of this critical error or your presence here is a good deal more sinister. 

To support this claim I will now present two exhibits to the court of public opinion.

Exhibit A:
Re: It's a slow and steady fall from love


River1977 said:


> There is a saying that "men need sex to feel loved, and women need love to want sex." That is very true. And, *you might have heard it stated here or there that women need to be made love to all day long if you want her to make love at night. That also is true. *If at all you are able to accept and understand those last two assertions, then you will know you have some real work to do, and you'll realize it was up to you all the long.


=== END OF EXHIBIT A ===

OP proceeds dutifully to suck it up, put on his man pants, and take influence from you. And he does so graciously, because it is clear from his writing that he's in a lot of pain, pouring out his soul like that for you to stomp upon so gleefully here. 

As shown by Exhibit B below he really spells out how he followed your instructions to the letter, sounding as if his words fell directly from your lips...

Exhibit B:
Re: Results of my 180


Screenp2 said:


> We had Saturday to ourselves so *I planned to make love to her all day, so WE could make love that evening*.


And then, here you come right back, smacking him down with 24-karat hubris:



River1977 said:


> When I read that line, I knew immediately how that part of your story was going to end. I knew your wife was not going to give you any, and I wouldn't give you any either.


=== END OF EXHIBIT B ===

As shown by this absolutely-irrefutable evidence, OP got the line FROM YOU! Don't bother denying it, because that would be nothing more than a pathetic lie, and no, I didn't take your words out of context. Each time you were speaking about the _same man_, regarding the _same issue_ and the _same marriage_.

As you put it in your smug shutdown of OP: 



River1977 said:


> You sound so ridiculous to me. And, you're not listening to yourself either.


That was a most eloquent feat of womansplaining, River1977. And not just a little bit more ironic. What is it you smart, self-righteous folks like to say when crushing the little people for daring to seek help in a manner that fails to validate your own personal choices? Ah, yes:

"Quod Erat Demonstrandum."

What this means, of course, is that your credibility just dropped to zero. At this point you might as well register a new TAM account and start all over. 

Oh, and BTW...



River1977 said:


> How do you think she feels knowing you expect her love, affections, and sex are to be purchased for a favor?
> 
> Lesson #2:
> Try to get a better understanding of what is called the 180. You certainly cannot call your wife childish after acting like a childish fool. I don't have to wonder if you got sex that night either.
> ...


Hmm, how about you go rub a few spare ganglia together and really burn some cals in pursuit of this enigma? After all, what a mind-bending cipher it is! Let's see, yours was the very last post prior to his, and -- at the same time somehow, because, ya know, patriarchy -- his was the very next post after yours. IOW, while you were busy patting yourself on the back for chiding OP so well, a wild challenger appear'd! You then proceeded to refute this new pretender to the throne.

Therefore your suggestion that you have no idea if WorkingOnMe could possibly have been addressing you just makes you look less and less useful to society._ Of course he was, professor! _It is simple protocol, even if we disregard entirely any latent reading comprehension you may be choosing to withhold (rather like so much sex in OP's marriage).

In conclusion: do us all a favor. Spare us your warrior spirit and instead focus on being a better ex/partner to that lucky man in your life.

And to predict your typical, snarky responses, simply because it amuses me:

1. 
No, I am not "bitter much." I am simply far more man than you can handle.

2. 
I have a gorgeous, fertile blonde with enormous natural breasts and a sweet, submissive personality happily asleep in my bed right now, after making her O repeatedly on the proper sausage she was so hungry for, so don't bother questioning my virility or success with women. I'm getting ready to reward her excellence with marriage, and that's why I've been lurking here. I am determined to learn beforehand, from everyone else, so that I can always do what it takes to maintain her devotion and avoid OP's horrible sex problems. 

As it happens, I found your low-rent pedantry so tedious I chose to reveal myself to you now instead of to someone else next week. (You're welcome.)

3.
I am not angry, rather, I give my women just the right amount of alpha; meanwhile OP needs help with all this but you are not providing it. Instead you have been trolling him (in violation of TAM forum rule #5) for _three months_ about his serious marital problems and that's why the record shows I've now put you in your place -- definitively.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

River1977 said:


> Um, if this is example of what you guys call the 180, then you need to stop hawking it all the time and telling men how good they are at it, because this guy is awful.....or maybe the 180 is awful.....if, in fact, this is the 180.
> 
> Screenp2, honestly, if your attitude toward your wife for not giving you any is the 180 you learned on these boards, then you need to go somewhere else and learn something new - a new approach, a new personality, a new way of thinking.....something.
> 
> ...


That’s crazy. Like an insanity. Everybody does things with the expectation of getting something back in return. It’s called a contract, a deal, most especially for which a married couple sign up for.

Everybody on the planet is selfish and we all do things for purely selfish reasons, whether Saint or Sinner or something in between. The Saint does selfish things that benefit others as well as themselves while the Sinner does selfish things that only benefits themselves.

But not only that, we do things with the expectation of NOT getting specific things back in return. For example if we are a faithful partner, then we expect our partner to be faithful in return.



The biggest difference is just how open and honest a person is about their selfishness, their “expectations”. There are those who openly declare their selfishness and those who keep them as very dark secrets never to be disclosed. Of course until they are exposed.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

River,
Why is always the man's responsibility to be a "great guy every day"? Shouldn't the woman also be making an effort to unconditionally love her husband and know that as part of this relationship he has pledged to have a physical relationship with just her? If she unconditionally love him, shouldn't she WANT to give herself to him accepting the fact that he desires to have a physical relation with her?

Your post is again one that throws men into a tailspin. We ask what it is that would want to make you want us (and it isn't just the physical act) and if we try and do these things, you're telling us you know why we do it and you're still NOT going to do it!

ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

River1977 said:


> Um, if this is example of what you guys call the 180, then you need to stop hawking it all the time and telling men how good they are at it, because this guy is awful.....or maybe the 180 is awful.....if, in fact, this is the 180.
> 
> Screenp2, honestly, if your attitude toward your wife for not giving you any is the 180 you learned on these boards, then you need to go somewhere else and learn something new - a new approach, a new personality, a new way of thinking.....something.
> 
> ...


This idea of "unconditional love" is truly dangerous. It is what leads women to stay with their physically abusive husband or men to stay with their serially cheating wife. Love, within a marriage, is the expectation of getting love and respect back. Without that, and without having the respect for yourself to expect that in return, you will have trouble in your marriage.

Having said all of that, I would invite River to actually provide some cosntructive advice to the OP. This post is long on his short-comings, but includes not a word of advice on what he could in fact do to improve the situation.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Toffer said:


> River,
> Why is always the man's responsibility to be a "great guy every day"? Shouldn't the woman also be making an effort to unconditionally love her husband and know that as part of this relationship he has pledged to have a physical relationship with just her? If she unconditionally love him, shouldn't she WANT to give herself to him accepting the fact that he desires to have a physical relation with her?
> 
> Your post is again one that throws men into a tailspin. We ask what it is that would want to make you want us (and it isn't just the physical act) and if we try and do these things, you're telling us you know why we do it and you're still NOT going to do it!
> ...


Sorry but surely you’ve thrown yourself into a tailspin based on one woman’s words. Isn’t that truly amazing?

You might want to look into blame shifting in that people will find any excuse not to do something. No sex? It’s for this, that or the other reason but the really big thing is you’re not getting any sex! No matter what you do because she doesn’t want it.


And then there’s the persecution and punishment side of things. No sex! It’s because of something you did last week, last year or in the decade before. In these cases it’s a withdrawal of “love”. Love is an act, or a load of acts that occur every single day in a marriage. We do things “out of love”. Having sex is a very big part of giving love, of loving.

So what happens when sex is withdrawn, what does it mean? It means your wife has stopped loving you. So wakeup! Your wife does not love you anymore!

If resentment has become so strong that it’s drowned her love then the big thing to do is clear the resentment. That’s done with forgiving, prayer and wisdom! But resentment becomes a part of a person, like an arm or a leg and they simply cannot live without it. If you recognise this then it really is wise to leave the marriage because it’s guaranteed otherwise you’re in for a life of persecution and punishment from the woman who supposed to love you! The really strange thing is that in long term marriages these behaviours become a way of being, a way of life such that the person doesn’t even realise what they’re doing!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:rofl:

Ya'll think too much.

There's so much arrogance in his posts! :rofl: Wow.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

I have never had the misfortune to have had to implement a '180' but I have to say it does come across as very contrived and formulaic. Won't it be obvious to the partner that you are playing a game? 

She wouldn't sleep with him, so he refused to kiss her...you end up in a sexual-emotional game of chicken, with a high chance of an accident. 

Maybe I am wrong but I don't think following someone's formula to the letter is the way to go when dealing with a marriage. Surely communication is going to work better than manipulation?


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## Chrysalis (Mar 20, 2012)

That's a typical refrain, ThatGirl. You have nothing to offer us as men, so you dismiss us as thinking too much. You have countered and disproven nothing. 

You, my dear, feel too much, what with all your :rofl: all over the place. Let me remind you that this _is _the men's area, and you are here trolling, in clear violation of forum rule #5.

You are right about one thing, though: the arrogance that River1977 displays in her posts is waaay over the top.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> I have never had the misfortune to have had to implement a '180' but I have to say it does come across as very contrived and formulaic. Won't it be obvious to the partner that you are playing a game?
> 
> She wouldn't sleep with him, so he refused to kiss her...you end up in a sexual-emotional game of chicken, with a high chance of an accident.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong but I don't think following someone's formula to the letter is the way to go when dealing with a marriage. Surely communication is going to work better than manipulation?


Not necessarily. A lot of people communciate with no positive results. Thus, the 180 or a version of it, such as turning down the temperature, can add actions to the words. 

It is important that it not just be about the sex, but rather your partner's failure to care about your needs and your need to look after them yourself. That may doing things for yourself at the expense of effort you used to put in for your wife. Explaining that clearly and calmly, without accusing, can be very helpful in making both words and actions consistent.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Tall, you've hit it out of the park again!

I still kiss my wife as always, a minimum of 3x day.

What I've stopped doing is the little love pats or the other touches that I have used to convey to her that I find her very attractive. I don't want her to think it's all about the act. It isn't


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## Chrysalis (Mar 20, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> I have never had the misfortune to have had to implement a '180' but I have to say it does come across as very contrived and formulaic. Won't it be obvious to the partner that you are playing a game?
> 
> She wouldn't sleep with him, so he refused to kiss her...you end up in a sexual-emotional game of chicken, with a high chance of an accident.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong but I don't think following someone's formula to the letter is the way to go when dealing with a marriage. Surely communication is going to work better than manipulation?


Good points, but his wife is purposely neither communicating with him nor having sex with him. Yet she also expects all the servicing of a good marriage: kisses, reassurance, hot dinners, cleaning, and cuddling (notice I left the kids out of this). At the same time she refuses to either communicate or have sex.

OP is not the bad guy here, except to the extent that he created this monster. But the monster has her own agency and that is also a huge part of this problem. We can say it's a 50/50 split as to the blame, but at the same time as a woman his wife doesn't understand what she is doing or why. Therefore it is up to OP to radically change his ways.

This is further complicated because she has put a dollar value on her unconditional love and other wifely duties. If he doesn't cough up the cash, she cuts off the love. We need a term for this...


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not necessarily. A lot of people communciate with no positive results. Thus, the 180 or a version of it, such as turning down the temperature, can add actions to the words.
> 
> It is important that it not just be about the sex, but rather your partner's failure to care about your needs and your need to look after them yourself. That may doing things for yourself at the expense of effort you used to put in for your wife. Explaining that clearly and calmly, without accusing, can be very helpful in making both words and actions consistent.


Ok, I get that and of course there is an element of negotiation in a marriage and this is a negotiation strategy. But I do think it can be taken too literally.

The gender war that she has set off with her post aside I do see river's point. Implement 180, bake for 20 mins and remove hot sex from wife. It does seem a very literal approach.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Chrysalis said:


> This is further complicated because she has put a dollar value on her unconditional love and other wifely duties. If he doesn't cough up the cash, she cuts off the love. We need a term for this...


Sexmailing?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> Ok, I get that and of course there is an element of negotiation in a marriage and this is a negotiation strategy. But I do think it can be taken too literally.
> 
> The gender war that she has set off with her post aside I do see river's point. Implement 180, bake for 20 mins and remove hot sex from wife. It does seem a very literal approach.


River's point is reasonable normally, but I don't think it applies here. As noted above, the wife is refusing sex, and is further refusing to talk about or address the issue. In that situation, continuing to be do all the little things that he normally does for her clearly communicates that this not a big deal and that the status quo is really just fine. When actions clash with words, people generally listen to actions. 

The 180 or other ideas like this (I would recommend turning down the thermostat) put actions into alignment with words and show her that this is in fact a big deal and things won't just go back to normal.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Chrysalis said:


> That's a typical refrain, ThatGirl. You have nothing to offer us as men, so you dismiss us as thinking too much. You have countered and disproven nothing.
> 
> You, my dear, feel too much, what with all your :rofl: all over the place. Let me remind you that this _is _the men's area, and you are here trolling, in clear violation of forum rule #5.
> 
> You are right about one thing, though: the arrogance that River1977 displays in her posts is waaay over the top.


Well, I was not being serious. People who know me, know that. So get off it.

This is the men's clubhouse but it's a public forum. If you want to keep it private, start PMing people  Thanks.

And I like my :rofl: Stop being so serious!!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

johnnycomelately said:


> I have never had the misfortune to have had to implement a '180' but I have to say it does come across as very contrived and formulaic. Won't it be obvious to the partner that you are playing a game?
> 
> She wouldn't sleep with him, so he refused to kiss her...you end up in a sexual-emotional game of chicken, with a high chance of an accident.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong but I don't think following someone's formula to the letter is the way to go when dealing with a marriage. Surely communication is going to work better than manipulation?


the 180 only work if you live it for yourself.
meaning you demand respect and to be treated evenly and if the spouce thinks your playing game and refuses to realise your serious then game over and time to move on. if your not ready to say listen this is what I need or i'm out of here then through your actions NOT WORDS. then it won't work because you don't respect yourself enough for others to respect you.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Well, I was not being serious. People who know me, know that. So get off it.
> 
> This is the men's clubhouse but it's a public forum. If you want to keep it private, start PMing people  Thanks.
> 
> And I like my :rofl: Stop being so serious!!


maybe you should change your name to troll girl


just joking I very much like your input.


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

Go to therapy and work for a day and see what ya'll do :smthumbup:

As for my 180.. IT WORKED! 

Monday was more of the same. Dinner wasn't cold this time and we spoke like two friends. She was over-tired from long day and just wanted to shower and goto sleep. Once the kids were down I did some work in the garage and went to bed later. She put and arm around and with a smile i fell asleep. 

Tuesday is my work day. Got up, did my morning routine. No affections, morning kid stuff, have a good day and out the door I go to MC. Spoke about the 180 and said it was a good idea to engage conversation. Gave me some tips and more precise words to say to increase the effect.

I got to work and texted her about my MC appt and how I had some 'homework' for the week and it wasn't going to be easy. We'll talk about it after the kids go down. 

I ran over it in my head all day at work and how I was going to word it. Turns out, I didn't have to word anything. She spilled the beans before I had my shoes off. 

Came home from work and she was ready to talk.. 
and boy did she.. 4 hours worth of teary eyed heart spilling and sobbing. 

It's a long story, it's all good and some of her problems are medical. It was the biggest breakthrough we've had since we did the engagement encounter weekend thing before getting married. 

The relief I feel tonight is incredible. 

I feel for the first time in a few years that when I reach for the bedroom door tonight.. my heart won't race and my anxiety won't fill me head with emotions. 

Will we be having sex soon.. I don't think so but right now I'm OK with that because today is the first day of her recovery and WE have a long journey ahead of us.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

SO glad to hear it!  :woohoo:

Keep up the communication.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Screenp2 said:


> Go to therapy and work for a day and see what ya'll do :smthumbup:
> 
> As for my 180.. IT WORKED!
> 
> ...


gret breakthrough...................But strike while the iron is hot. if you wait things will slip back to where they were. turn it up a notch make her feel sexy show her your desire. But(another but ) don't get disapointed if things don't go as planned keep gently pushing and show much affection if and when you do make love. make sure to cuddle afterwards and tell her how much you liked it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> I have never had the misfortune to have had to implement a '180' but I have to say it does come across as very contrived and formulaic. Won't it be obvious to the partner that you are playing a game?
> 
> She wouldn't sleep with him, so he refused to kiss her...you end up in a sexual-emotional game of chicken, with a high chance of an accident.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong but I don't think following someone's formula to the letter is the way to go when dealing with a marriage. Surely communication is going to work better than manipulation?


That's because people have tried to use it for something it was not meant to be used for.

Go back and read the 180 again, top to bottom. It is not a formula for manipulation. It is merely a way for the BS to disengage emotionally from a wayward spouse, and to bolster themselves emotionally for the _possibility _that the marriage will end. 

Sometimes.... sometimes... doing the 180 has the _side effect _of making the wayward see changes in their partner and making them wonder what the hell is going on: 

"Why is s/he acting this way?" 

"Why isn't s/he he following me around like a puppy begging me to stay like s/he used to?" 

"Why is s/he losing weight, dressing nicer, acting happy and being outgoing?" 

"Hey, maybe s/he is really serious about moving on!"


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> gret breakthrough...................But strike while the iron is hot. if you wait things will slip back to where they were. turn it up a notch make her feel sexy show her your desire. But(another but ) don't get disapointed if things don't go as planned keep gently pushing and show much affection if and when you do make love. make sure to cuddle afterwards and tell her how much you liked it.


No need to keep at it. This women is broken worse than I ever imagined. Our talk revealed more than I can post here other than her life long battle with depression contribute to her complete lack of sexual desire. She has not been able to have an orgasm for the last 6 months no matter how hard she tries. (Currently on wellbutrin for that) This from a women who was able to hit multiple O's in a single night and had the ability to reach orgasm in just a few minutes with toys. That makes her feel guilty in that if we have sex, she would have to fake it or risk me asking about it. 

It's easier for her to just avoid the situation than work on it thanks to a very strict upbringing. Feelings and emotions were meant to be put in a drawer and the man of the house has the authority and you do not question his actions. You just do and put up with it or deal with the wrath of his words. 

All of her excuses and reasons to not be intimate were all a farce thanks to her dad (32 yr navy engineer vet) and his overbearing authority that helped her build a wall around herself. She can't say no, so she just avoided the situation, made up excuses and figured if you do that long enough, the problem will go away on it's own. She's had a lifetime to refine her avoidance skills and those alone have become a part of her, something she does without even realizing she's doing it. 

It's going to take some time to get her the help she needs to finally become her own person and escape from all the years of her overbearing father. What that means for me.. sex is completely off the table till further notice. 

Now I have to work on my coping skills until the sex returns. How long that will be.. she went a few years w/out sex in her early 20's due to depression. Said she woke up one day and realized it had been 3 years since she had sex. Got herself dressed up, went out and found a guy, did him for a week then went another 2 years before meeting me.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Um, this is his wife; not some 2nd date he's trying to seduce. Do you make your husband jump through these hoops to have sex?


My wife has and I've accepted it. Its easier said than done to jump off the chump train. Its not right to ration love to your spouse based on what your spouse does for you. Actually I like the second date rule. If what your wife does would have assured date 3 wouldn't have happened, then its a problem.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I attempted a 180 of sorts a little over a year ago, I had gotten fed up with my wife not talking to me and being distant for awhile. Then she lied to me about something and I quit talking to her for two days.

At the time when she finally started talking to me I was devastated, turned out she didn't know how she felt anymore, she had been contemplating divorce for some time, and then found out she had gone to see another man, didn't sleep with him, but she's had feelings for him for years and the visit was innapropriate. 

I've worked to turn devastation into something productive, we are both working to try and fix things, the 180 led to a very rough last year for me but it was better to find those things out when I did then to find her walking out the door, and she was ready to do it.


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## Chrysalis (Mar 20, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Well, I was not being serious. People who know me, know that. So get off it.
> 
> This is the men's clubhouse but it's a public forum. If you want to keep it private, start PMing people  Thanks.
> 
> And I like my :rofl: Stop being so serious!!


That's cool, but OP's situation is dead serious. We should be respecting that and making meaningful contributions. You may be quite the sweetheart but I'm well within my rights to not appreciate the lack of nutritional value in your comment. 

On the other hand, I am new here and not familiar with your posts -- yet.


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## Chrysalis (Mar 20, 2012)

Screenp2 said:


> As for my 180.. IT WORKED!


Attaboy! Just remember, there's no going back. Use this opportunity to rediscover the man she fell in love with. Become that man again, regardless of money. 

It's her choice, to come along for the ride or not.


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## Chrysalis (Mar 20, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> gret breakthrough...................But strike while the iron is hot. if you wait things will slip back to where they were. turn it up a notch make her feel sexy show her your desire. But(another but ) don't get disapointed if things don't go as planned keep gently pushing and show much affection if and when you do make love. make sure to cuddle afterwards and tell her how much you liked it.


I mostly agree with this, chillymorn. At the same time, though, I'd suggest a stronger approach. I think OP should do some seriously rude bodice-ripping and show her unbridled passion, not out of selfishness but to reward her for coming clean about her bad behavior. 

And in case any militant feminists are reading, no, "ladies", I am not advocating rape. Rape is evil and I am all about good things. Rather, I am talking about men being real men, and satisfying the women who so thoroughly love them.

OP, do you have a safe word with your wife, something other than the word "no" that really does, actually, in reality, despite all female complexities and secret yearnings for real men, mean "STOP"? If not, establish one and then become considerably more sexual with her so that she can have the fun of resisting but ultimately submitting to you. You don't take no for an answer once you have agreed on a safe word -- only the safe word will stop you _immediately and 100% of the time_ and she always knows that.


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## Chrysalis (Mar 20, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> WorkingOnMe said:
> 
> 
> > Um, this is his wife; not some 2nd date he's trying to seduce. Do you make your husband jump through these hoops to have sex?
> ...


What do you mean, phantomfan? Are you saying you accept jumping through hoops? Can you give some examples? What makes you think that agreeing to do so really satisfies your wife and addresses the underlying problems?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

OP, please be careful. The fact that your wife wouldn't even kiss you suggests that the problem may also now be much deeper--as in, she has deep resentment toward you b/c you continued to make demands on her for sex when she didn't want it--and that may have been years ago, when she continued to have sex even though you might have been ignoring her needs.

I'm not saying this is your fault--or even hers--b/c it isn't. I'm just asking you not to assume she even KNOWS how deep her problem is. 

Please consider what she might have expressed in the past and you ignored b/c you felt it wasn't very important, or whether you engaged in any passive-aggressive behaviors as the sex dwindled. She would have seen that and found it rather childish and that would have contributed to her lack of attraction to you.

Her depression came from somewhere--and it's likely she internalized anger at you for not meeting her needs. She tried to do her part-be a good wife--while perceiving that you weren't doing yours (not being a good husband b/c you were ignoring her needs--for more help, for taking more responsibility for things she found important, etc). 

AGain, I'm not at all trying to say you were awful--rather, that the things that triggered her to draw away from you in the beginning may still be rather obscure, that the root of the issue is quite possibly much deeper. Not wanting to kiss you sexually is a really bad sign; she found sex with you almost repulsive by that point. I'm sure that is hard to hear, and I only tell you to keep you from thinking that this break through has gotten everything out in the open. There is a very, very good chance it has not, and it may be a distraction from the real issues. Pay a lot more attention to her behavior than what she says--because if she says things, and you respond appropriately and her behavior does not change, then what she is saying is not what is really going on. It's what she may THINK is going on. Just keep an eye on discrepancy between words and behavior and be sure to get to the past--early times she may have felt you poo-pooed things important to her, etc. Good luck.


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