# Divorce....Too Easy?



## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

Ok, i have touched on some of this on other threads but i think this deserves it's own thread. **I WANT TO STATE NOW, THAT SOME MARRIAGES DEFINITELY NEED TO END, BUT I WILL TOUCH ON THAT FURTHER DOWN.**

Let me start out by saying, when i found this site it was so very helpful to me and a good outlet and a place for support and advice. 

I saw this site as a place for people to get support to WORK THROUGH their problems in marriage. I felt that at the core, this site was about salvaging the sancity of marriage. 

However, the more threads i read, especially in CWI, there seems to be a common theme, "DUMP THE CHEATING B*TCH" 

As many of you that have read my posts know, i have forgiven my wife for her infidelity and i have assumed 50% of the responsibility for what led to the A. *I am not wanting to debate the blame game on this thread. *
I made a choice to honor MY vows to her "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, til death do us part."

My vows didn't say, "until death do us part, unless you cheat on me or be mean to me for not give me enough sex"

Even though she broke her vow to be with me "foresaking all others", it does not justify me breaking my vows. Two wrongs don't make it right. 

They say 50% of all marriages will end in divorce. I believe that number is only so high because a vast majority of those people are unwilling to put the work in, they are too proud, too selfish or just don't care.

It is easy to walk away from a marriage when you have been hurt or betrayed. All of the excuses are lined up for you. It takes a strong person to really look deep into the marriage and identify the negatives, and to look into the spouses eyes and say "you hurt me, you betrayed me, but i forgive you. I love you. Lets work through this"

For all of those that have preached to me about vows in marriage, it seems that it is one sided and only what benefits the BS. How about the for better or for worse part? 

I believe that people tend to look for the easy way out when things get tough. I thought about leaving after finding out what my wife did, but what was that going to solve or prove? Was it going to be a good "punishment" for her? Was it going to make me feel better or happier? No. 

When i married her, i committed to be at her side forever and to love her UNCONDITIONALLY. 


Now, with all of that being said, i definitely believe in divorce in some of the following scenarios (and this is obviously not all of them)

When the marriage and/or spouse is:

1. Physically or emtionally abusive
2. Endagering the well-being of a child
3. cheating again and again even after being caught
4. Is not remorseful after an affair or unwilling to take responsibility for it

well, i've started to run out of other justifications...i'm sure there's plent more. 

But just to say, "well we don't have a lot of the same interests, or we have grown apart, etc" 

I don't want to hear it. Put in the work. Make the effort. Quit looking for the easy way out so you can protect your pride.


I am sure i am biased due to the broekn home i grew up in, but i think it helps me appreciate the true value of a stable home life for my children


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

There is nothing easy about divorce and if you think it is, you have not gone through one.

Its nice for you that you have a value system that works-but it works for you. It is not universally applied, and for you to say MY divorce is a "wrong" is pretty damn judgemental.


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

You wouldn't divorce, until your wife tells you that you have no choice. Despite my willingness to figure out a way to work things out, I didnt have a chance to. She was done! Had that other dude waiting in the wings, and had to get after that new fabulous life!
So, all that personal self righteousness is not a bad thing, but it does NOT ensure your marriage.

And then try reading the kind of stuff you wrote in your post. Especially the part about the kids.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> There is nothing easy about divorce and if you think it is, you have not gone through one.
> 
> Its nice for you that you have a value system that works-but it works for you. It is not universally applied, and for you to say MY divorce is a "wrong" is pretty damn judgemental.


I know i come across as judgemental, there is really no way i could have put my views on here without sounding judgemental. 

I know every situation is different. I am making a generalization based on what i have been reading a lot of. I honestly feel a lot of people just look for the quick easy way out and don't want to put the time or effort in


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rand OmGuy said:


> I know i come across as judgemental, there is really no way i could have put my views on here without sounding judgemental.
> 
> I know every situation is different. I am making a generalization based on what i have been reading a lot of. I honestly feel a lot of people just look for the quick easy way out and don't want to put the time or effort in


I'm genuinely happy things are working for you. That being said, when you take divorce off the table no matter what all you've communicated is that you're a doormat and you wife knows that no matter what she does she can get away with it. You're relying on her good decisions, and she's already demonstrated you can't do that. Your position in the marriage is now very weak. Consequences are what keep order for a lot of people, and your wife has none. I hope it continues to work for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

I hear you man. But I think it's a very personal decision. I'm not willing to continue suffering to stay true to a vow that was already trashed.

For me, I just wouldn't be able to ever completely forgive or feel secure again. Divorce was the humane choice for both of us.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

I need to re-word some of my statements i guess. I don't want it to seem like i would never ever ever get a divorce. If my wife and i put the work in and fixed the relationship and she cheated later, then we would likely be divorced. (Note #3 in my list) 

If one or both in the relationship has made attempts at R, but it was unsuccessfu, then i can see where a divorce is the only viable option. 

My comments are directed more to those who instantly bailed without making an attemp to work on it. 

Please note this only my oppinion and i cannot pass jusdgement at indivual ircumstances. 

As a whole, i think our society can be so quick to just cut bait and move on.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Divorce: Leaving the "one you love"...possibly losing the house both of you bought and created...possibly losing the ability to see your children on a daily basis...possibly paying alimoney or child support for something not your fault...possibly NEVER getting all of the answers you needed.

Reconciliation: Keeping the "one you love"...possibly losing every "friend" from your previous "marriage"...possibly not paying attention to your children because you're concentrating on reconciliation...possibly losing your house because you're so hurt that you can't get off the couch and get back to work...possibly NEVER getting all of the answers you needed.

No, in my opinion neither one is easy.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

BK23 said:


> I hear you man. But I think it's a very personal decision. I'm not willing to continue suffering to stay true to a vow that was already trashed.
> 
> For me, I just wouldn't be able to ever completely forgive or feel secure again. Divorce was the humane choice for both of us.


I can understand that. 

Maybe i went on too much of a tirade this morning....too much coffee maybe...

I don't mean to offend. I just have very strong feelings about this. 

My feelings on the vows i made are even stronger now following my wife breaking her vows to me.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Rand OmGuy said:


> ....too much coffee maybe...


Blasphemer!!!!

:rofl:


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rand OmGuy said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> Maybe i went on too much of a tirade this morning....too much coffee maybe...
> 
> ...


Your feelings are totally valid. I really think it's great when couples are able to weather this type of thing and come out intact. However, some situations aren't salvageable and some people, both BSs and WSs, aren't properly wired for a healthy and meaningful R. I know I'm not. Really for me, it's kind of utilitarian. I know I'm going to hurt either way, what choice causes me the least amount of pain? For me, bailing. For others, maybe sticking around.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rand OmGuy said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> Maybe i went on too much of a tirade this morning....too much coffee maybe...
> 
> ...



I don't drink coffee, maybe that's my problem 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

My vows did say, "*forsaking all others, until death do you part!"*

Having said that, since my STBXW unilaterally decided on her own that she greatly came to desire to have someone else's face and appendage buried deeply into her pelvic region other than her husband's, I would just not be real wild about the prospects of ever going back to that "magic playground" of hers where some other dude has, obviously, been staking a claim; and quite possibly sharing in their lovemaking "cooties!" 

And that's not to even mention letting her heart having been taken from me in the precursory EA.

For me, even just one occurence of emotional or physical infidelity could well mandate that it would be over----meaning Game, Set, and Match!

The current system of divorce has largely been brought about by a self-serving segment of our society that is all too acceptant of casual flirting, sex and covert infidelity~ with a person other than your spouse; the person with whom you should solely share your deepest thoughts and your heartfelt love~ albeit emotional or physical! 

As such, the divorce system is largely just an indictment of our society, but remains to be a necessary evil! Not to even mention being a most flourishing and massive revenue-generating enterprise!


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

It takes two to make a marriage and in many cases the divorce is a fait accompli long before the final decree.

In the words of Bonnie Raitt, 'I can't make you love me.'

Life is too short to keep beating a dead horse.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Well you if R is what you really want, then that's what you should try. 

Many of us believe that if you don't at least go through the beginning motions of a D before you then attempt an R, you've lost a valuable chance at snapping the WS out of the fog and realizing what's at stake if they cheat again. I'm one of them.

If your R is successful for the rest of your life, then that would be awesome, really. However, if in 5, or 10 years, you find out that she has cheated again - You're going to wonder if not starting the D and stopping it before the R would have made the difference... And you won't get that 5, or 10 years back.

Having "The swords of Damocles" hanging over her head might make the difference when she starts to get those inappropriate feelings again and sway her to not act upon them...


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

LOL at divorce being "quick and easy". Get off your high horse. If you want to stay with a woman who stabbed you in the back and twisted the knife over and over, good for you.

Go sell it somewhere else.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

Rand OmGuy said:


> As a whole, i think our society can be so quick to just cut bait and move on.


No offense, but it's my opinion that you have it exactly backwards. It's the "cheating b!tch3s" as you call them, that are too quick to cut bait and move on.

I'm glad R worked for you, but it's silly to project that approach as the "right one" for society in general. The real problem is not the divorce per say, but the behaviors that have been adopted by the masses that cause the divorce in the first place.

You have a nice sentiment but you're addressing the wrong problem.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> LOL at divorce being "quick and easy". Get off your high horse. If you want to stay with a woman who stabbed you in the back and twisted the knife over and over, good for you.
> 
> Go sell it somewhere else.


:iagree:


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Well you if R is what you really want, then that's what you should try.
> 
> Many of us believe that if you don't at least go through the beginning motions of a D before you then attempt an R, you've lost a valuable chance at snapping the WS out of the fog and realizing what's at stake if they cheat again. I'm one of them.
> 
> ...


I don't think that she, or anyone, should act a certain way for fear of the concequences. She should not cheat because it is not right. She is aware that if she cheats again, we are done. 

I equate this to a few religious friends i have. Their desicions are not based on right or wrong, it's based on the fear of going to hell. The desicion not to kill someone should not be based on a fear of going to hell, it should based on the fact that it is moraly wrong.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

You said you would divorce if she cheats again and again. You have a number you are fine with but to some, once is a deal breaker...


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> You said you would divorce if she cheats again and again. You have a number you are fine with but to some, once is a deal breaker...


That is my point. To some, once is a dealbreaker. I feel that a marriage is sacred and deserves a chance to be reconciled. But this is MY OWN PERSONAL OPPINION. 

Personally, I just believe a person cannot be defined by a single action.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Rand OmGuy said:


> Ok, i have touched on some of this on other threads but i think this deserves it's own thread. **I WANT TO STATE NOW, THAT SOME MARRIAGES DEFINITELY NEED TO END, BUT I WILL TOUCH ON THAT FURTHER DOWN.**
> 
> Let me start out by saying, when i found this site it was so very helpful to me and a good outlet and a place for support and advice.
> 
> ...


Making a decision to divorce is never easy. I struggled for a long time with divorcing my ex-wife. Luckily I waited until after my daughter was born (as in I had thought about leaving a couple years prior to that even). 

BUT, sorry there's no way I would stay married to a cheater. Marriage isn't always easy and some vows are more important than others.

I put the honoring and forsaking all others at the top of the list of vows. Sickness and in health, for better or worse, is all possible by the honor and forsaking. But those are MY priorities and we can differ with that.

I applaud your convictions, I have my convictions and if more people were like us, there would be less divorce.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Rand OmGuy said:


> I don't think that she, or anyone, should act a certain way for fear of the concequences. She should not cheat because it is not right. She is aware that if she cheats again, we are done.
> 
> I equate this to a few religious friends i have. Their desicions are not based on right or wrong, it's based on the fear of going to hell. The desicion not to kill someone should not be based on a fear of going to hell, it should based on the fact that it is moraly wrong.


That's fine and good, but she did cheat. She knew it was wrong, but she did it anyway. You threatening to leave may keep her from doing it again, but that will remain to be seen.

Telling her that you will D vs. "showing" her are two different things.

I hope it works out for you, I really do. If it works, you'll be an exception to the rule. Good luck and don't become complacent down the road. A few good years doesn't mean this can't happen again.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Rand OmGuy said:


> .
> 
> Personally, I just believe a person cannot be defined by a single action.


You probably would. Depends on the act.


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## Rckbttm (Mar 24, 2013)

Shooboomafoo said:


> You wouldn't divorce, until your wife tells you that you have no choice. Despite my willingness to figure out a way to work things out, I didnt have a chance to. She was done! Had that other dude waiting in the wings, and had to get after that new fabulous life!
> So, all that personal self righteousness is not a bad thing, but it does NOT ensure your marriage.
> 
> And then try reading the kind of stuff you wrote in your post. Especially the part about the kids.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

I will try to respond to multiple points above. I am not religious by any measure. I don't mean to come accross as very oppionated, but i guess i kind of am in this case. 

My personal thoughts are just that. It is not my place to judge or determine what is right or wrong in anyone's life and/or marriage. 

If a spouse is not remorseful or is unwilling to take responsibility for their actions, then yes divorce is very justified. 

I guess i got a a possibly misguided or false impression that there were more people that just bailed when the A happened or when things got tough. Maybe i'm reading into it wrong. 

Lanie, in your case, i am heartbroken for you. I think you honestly do deserve better. You're doing the work and he is not. That is beyond unacceptable. 

Read some of my posts, if you haven't already, in my thread "wife of 13 years cheated with my best friend". Maybe that will give you some insight to my thought process


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Your wife and R had many things going for them. It was a one time thing when the relationship with you was in a bad place. You had a scumbag friend that took advantage of her and she had enough guilt to confess on her own. And luckily you had FB posts between both of them that proved everything she said. It removed any doubts from your mind. Not everyone is so lucky.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Your wife and R had many things going for them. It was a one time thing when the relationship with you was in a bad place. You had a scumbag friend that took advantage of her and she had enough guilt to confess on her own. And luckily you had FB posts between both of them that proved everything she said. It removed any doubts from your mind. Not everyone is so lucky.


Agreed. I guess in retrospect, i am very lucky that my story is fairly mild compared to many other. 

All, please accept my apology if you felt i was looking down on your personal decisions. Not my intent.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I think you believe there's a bias against R here becasue that's the impression you got after reading a few threads, even many threads but It's a false impression. I've been lurking this site for years and what I got is that most waywards fit the mold you painted to justify the divorce.
Real, genuinely remorseful waywars, those who give you enough to keep trying are rare.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Rand OmGuy said:


> I know i come across as judgemental, there is really no way i could have put my views on here without sounding judgemental.
> 
> I know every situation is different. I am making a generalization based on what i have been reading a lot of. *I honestly feel a lot of people just look for the quick easy way out and don't want to put the time or effort in*


I can't speak for all BS's, but perhaps there are some that feel like I do. Divorce is not the quick, easy, way out. R is, at least at first.

With R, you get immediate relief from the devastating emotional consequence of losing your long time partner. Many BS's lack the fortitude to D, because they are fearful of their future and they're in their own fog. I don't think they can even see D as foreseeable, much less easy.

When I give a BS advice on R or D, I try to give them some perspective on what to consider when they make that decision. Is the CS remorseful? What does true remorse look like? Have the proper consequences been dealt? Is this a serial cheater? 

Yes, there have been a couple of times when I've suggested D is the better option, but usually I try to speak in terms of likelihoods, based on the answers to those questions. I consider myself pro R, but nothing can be absolute. 

In the end, if the BS chooses R, I would hope they make that decision with some added clarity of purpose.


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## Rimis (Dec 5, 2012)

Rand OmGuy said:


> Personally, I just believe a person cannot be defined by a single action.


Oh, was your wife's affair a one night stand? A one time thing?

My wife's lasted for 3+ months (which I realize is not THAT long compared to others here)... she has tried that "a mistake" or "single action" crap with me. Umm... if you do something over and over again that is not "one action" - that is NOT a "singular event".

That's like saying we shouldn't judge Hitler for the "single action" of the holocaust.

Hell, even if it IS a singular event, we as people are defined by our words & our deeds. Should any ONE deed define our entire character? Probably not, but that doesn't mean it is stricken from the record.

And I can certainly think of plenty of cases where a single deed is deserving of defining a person (ask anyone who was at the Boston Marathon if they think Dzhokhar Tsarnaev should be defined by his one "mistake").

For the record, I'm still attempting to reconcile with my WW. Five months past DDay, and clearly I've got a ways to go still. :/

[note: I'm not equating cheating to mass murder or genocide here... just the best examples to counter this whole "don't judge people b/c of what they do" bull]


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm genuinely happy things are working for you. That being said, when you take divorce off the table no matter what all you've communicated is that you're a doormat and you wife knows that no matter what she does she can get away with it. You're relying on her good decisions, and she's already demonstrated you can't do that. Your position in the marriage is now very weak. Consequences are what keep order for a lot of people, and your wife has none. I hope it continues to work for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also want to echo the words *I hope it continues to work for you.*

Hope never to see you posting here ever again. 

But I hope you have the pair to come back here under your same user account if it doesn't and tell us why it didn't.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Rand OmGuy said:


> Agreed. I guess in retrospect, i am very lucky that my story is fairly mild compared to many other.
> 
> All, please accept my apology if you felt i was looking down on your personal decisions. Not my intent.


No, just giving a different POV and the different demons BS face when trying to reconcile. Try reading Mr.Mathias and DevastatedDad's threads.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> No, just giving a different POV and the different demons BS face when trying to reconcile. Try reading Mr.Mathias and DevastatedDad's threads.


Is DD still in R?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Please forgive the brief tj. This is for LanieB:

You probably know that your H's treatment of you now very strongly indicates that the A is still active. You sound like that possibility is real to you.

The credible threat of divorce may well be the only thing that has a chance of waking him up. In my opinion, you should take the initiative, no matter what your heart says, and file.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> I also want to echo the words *I hope it continues to work for you.*
> 
> Hope never to see you posting here ever again.
> 
> But I hope you have the pair to come back here under your same user account if it doesn't and tell us why it didn't.


If, God forbid, my R doesn't work out for any reason. I will DEFINITELY post on here (as this account) why it didn't work or what happened.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

Rimis said:


> Oh, was your wife's affair a one night stand? A one time thing?
> 
> My wife's lasted for 3+ months (which I realize is not THAT long compared to others here)... she has tried that "a mistake" or "single action" crap with me. Umm... if you do something over and over again that is not "one action" - that is NOT a "singular event".
> 
> ...


If you want, read my story on "wife of 13 years cheated with my best friend" - That'll explain a lot as to where i am mentally.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I can't speak for all BS's, but perhaps there are some that feel like I do. Divorce is not the quick, easy, way out. R is, at least at first.
> 
> With R, you get immediate relief from the devastating emotional consequence of losing your long time partner. Many BS's lack the fortitude to D, because they are fearful of their future and they're in their own fog. I don't think they can even see D as foreseeable, much less easy.
> 
> ...


Badmemory, 

I would definitely like to talk in more detail with you regarding my story. Maybe i need to get another perspective and reassure i am on the right path or to point out if i'm making mistakes. If you're interested, read my story and PM so we can exchange email. 

I am carefully moving forwad but i don't want to rush headlong into a disaster.


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## domah (May 18, 2012)

The OP does have a point. From an emotional perspective, most humans who make a large investment (marriage is a large investment for most), they will want to not throw it away.

So the advice that most people give (*ie. "Dump that cheating b*tch"*) is likely to fall upon deaf ears, because the person giving the advice has made no investment into the relationship, therefore its easy for them to say to dump the SO.

Modern Marriage is messy, sticky, un-fair, and heavily biased against men (at least in the USA). There are obvious benefits to be gained from a relationship, in fact we, as a species evolved to form pair bonds, so it is in our DNA to want to pair up; however, marriage itself is a artificial institution created by religion and given lop-sided power by our laws. If one rationally considers the pros/cons of marriage, the only logical conclusion is there is no need for marriage in modern society. One can reap all the supposed benefits of marriage (relationship, happiness, emotional/financial support) without signing away all your rights in the event of a split. In modern times, co-habitation arraignments are becoming more common and suffer few of the downsides of marriage in the even of divorce.

In my opinion, marriage is the problem. It just does not work in a modern society as evidenced by the 50% divorce rate.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

domah said:


> The OP does have a point. From an emotional perspective, most humans who make a large investment (marriage is a large investment for most), they will want to not throw it away.
> 
> So the advice that most people give (*ie. "Dump that cheating b*tch"*) is likely to fall upon deaf ears, because the person giving the advice has made no investment into the relationship, therefore its easy for them to say to dump the SO.
> 
> ...


The co-habitation scenario is one that i never understood. Where is the committment in that? It seems to me like a relationship like that would be destined to fail...both parties are starting with one foot out the door ready to jump at a moments notice. It's too easy. It seems like a good arrangment for people without the balls to make a committment and a promise and follow through with it


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

My grandfather stayed with my grandmother after several affairs, even raising another man's child to boot.

As a child, I never knew this, but I can remember his latent anger with her always under the surface. He would go off on her for minor things. In turn, she just seemed to co-exist with him in a neglectful sort of way.

They reconciled because of their 'sacred vows' (very religious family) and the kids.

Now there are tensions between my mom and her sister (affair child) that are always under the surface of family events.

But even worse, rugsweeping is now a multi-generational thing. Its how my sister was pressured to deal with her husband's infidelity.

Now what was the point of reconciling all of that?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

“Reality is what you make of it.”
What it comes down to is how you predict the future. “Faith and belief.” All of us have experiences. What you learned from those is entirely a personal thing. 
Here’s the key; In your head, you define what it all means. Since you aren’t “them”, nor have you lived their life and what they learned, you are essentially guessing at what “their actions and words” really mean. That guess work is based on your own “life rulebook” of how things are realistically going to work. Some things you really think about drawing conclusions, others you just take for granted. 

People generally try to see what they want to see, thus creating their personal reality bubble.. (google it) The spouse doesn’t matter half as much as how you interpret them and reality. Find yourself, your core and where your ‘faith’ lies... then your choices should reflect it. 

So...... an example 


Rand OmGuy said:


> They say 50% of all marriages will end in divorce. I believe that number is only so high because a vast majority of those people are *unwilling to put the work in, they are too proud, too selfish or just don't care.*


See how your own personal belief guided you? It didn’t have as much to do with your spouse as it did with your belief that it could be resolved. That belief is based on your own personal experiences and your interpretations of what it means. Others interpret their world differently. Recognize this and how your own head interprets things so they fit in with what you want to believe.... “Faith”.


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## domah (May 18, 2012)

Rand OmGuy said:


> The co-habitation scenario is one that i never understood. Where is the committment in that? It seems to me like a relationship like that would be destined to fail...both parties are starting with one foot out the door ready to jump at a moments notice. It's too easy. It seems like a good arrangment for people without the balls to make a committment and a promise and follow through with it


In today's society, divorce is already easy. The laws (no-fault divorce, uni-lateral divorces, etc) are already set up to make divorce one-sided and easy. A marriage contract in today's legal environment is not a commitment. How one can even call it a contract is beyond me. In any other field of law, a contract that can be uni-laterally cancelled, force the non-breaching party to give up half their assets and potentially pay a penalty (alimony) for the rest of their lives would be thrown out of court and deemed illegal. But not so in family law. The family court system is almost like a parallel court system that has archaic laws that border on in-humane. For example, the concept of debtor's prisons have been done away with 200 years ago being considered in-humane and not compatible with a modern society; however, few know that debtor's prisons still exist today. Miss an alimony payment, or lose your job and can't pay child support and you are going to jail (ie. a modern debtor's prison). Why a rational adult would even consider subjecting themselves to such things can only boil down to emotional irrationality. Marriage is not a commitment, it is mostly just irrational.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

Racer said:


> “Reality is what you make of it.”
> What it comes down to is how you predict the future. “Faith and belief.” All of us have experiences. What you learned from those is entirely a personal thing.
> Here’s the key; In your head, you define what it all means. Since you aren’t “them”, nor have you lived their life and what they learned, you are essentially guessing at what “their actions and words” really mean. That guess work is based on your own “life rulebook” of how things are realistically going to work. Some things you really think about drawing conclusions, others you just take for granted.
> 
> ...


Well said. Very good counterpoint. 

I guess my biggest mistake was attempting to generalize and making a sweeping statement. To each their own. 

My personal experiences tell me to work and to make it work. Other people personal experiences tell them to leave and start over. 

I think i was being a little obtuse in my original post. Maybe vocally convincing myself i am doing the right thing.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

I suppose to me, statements like "divorce is too easy" and "living together is too easy" beg the question: why does life have to be hard?

Is there some kind of prize at the end that I'm unaware of for the person who did the most "work" or had the hardest life? To my mind, we have one shot at this life. While we certainly all face challenges at different points in our journeys and I certainly don't advocate ditching out at the least little bump in the road--I also don't see the point in throwing our limited time on this planet away on something that should be a source of support and happiness and instead is just "work" and "sticking it out".


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

So triggered, and then come home to read this. And this set me off. 
Going to disagree with you. 100%

You don't believe one act should define someone? 

I told my XW "Till death do us part." years ago. That was assuming the entire contract was followed by both our ends. She breached her end. Contract terminated. Null and void. Done. No further contract. It doesn't exist. 
It stopped existing once she carried out her PA. 

Why should I have stayed to make it work? She showed me that she could lie through her teeth and not blink an eyelash. She showed me she could spend her day with the OM then spend her night with me. I don't give 2 cents to the fog or any of it. No excuse there. She choose to do what she did. 
Sure, she was sorry. But that doesn't help me now! That would've helped her earlier when the EA first took off, and she realized what she was doing and stopped it. But no, she only realizes it after the pain and anguish are present in her life and my life. 

That is going to define her. There is no other way to rationalize it. I now know what she is capable of. 

You can say you don't think a single action should define someone, but it does. 

Because single actions show us what kind of person you really are. What kind of person you really are inside when the going gets tough. Not the person you pretend to be, or want to be, but the person you truly are.
My XW showed how greedy and selfish she could be. 
I showed how angry and violent I could be to her OM. 

People just don't want to think those actions define them. Because they don't want to think they are truly capable of doing what they did, so they try to rationalize it, and explain that circumstances or events surrounding the situation led them to make the choices they did. 
When in reality, they don't want to look in the mirror and see what is staring back at them.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

Juicer said:


> So triggered, and then come home to read this. And this set me off.
> Going to disagree with you. 100%
> 
> You don't believe one act should define someone?
> ...


Juice, 
First off, i am sorry that she betrayed you like that. I guess since my situation and my wife's A is different, i have a little different perspective. I have mis-understood many of the posts and thread, or at least interprted them differently. 

As far as an action defining a person, i just don't know man. 

I got into trouble when i was 18 and spent time in prison. 

I haven't broken a single law since then, i have been an upstanding, law abiding citizen and have a family, maintained a steady job and bought a home. 

Am i defined as a criminal because of the one action?

Personally i think a person is defined by a pattern of behavior. People are capable of change. People are capable of making poor decisions, sometimes for continued periods of time, but they can see the error of their ways and change. 

But only you could make the assessment in your case. 

I am sincerely sorry that my posting compounded your trigger. 

I have realized that the mildness of what i am going through in comparison to many others on here hasn't affected me in the same way it has many of you. 

I feel really bad for pouring salt in the wounds of so many that have been crushed by their SO's or former SO's


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

For what its worth, I really believe you had no intentions of causing a moment's pain to anyone in the TAM family.
I'm happy you and the wife were willing to work on R, and I wish you both nothing but happiness. That is not an outcome I will ever achieve. No action I ever take, no word I ever utter will change my situation. Ever.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I've lost my cool a few times in the past, and it has come back to bite me in the ass. And when I say lose my cool, I mean, going hulk on someone. And that ended poorly for both of us. 

And BTW, COUNT, can you edit your post? 
Likelihood of me getting sued, while very low, I don't like tempting fate. Because I've tempted it too many times and been hit with it. 

Does that define me? You better believe it. 
Because I always thought I was somewhat cool headed. Usually. 
But now I know, I have a temper and rage that makes me a monster. And sure, I can say and point to the situation and show how it made me do what I did, but the honest answer is this:
I wanted to do what I did, and I got enjoyment out of it. And I have that side of me, that relished it. No getting around it. No hiding it. 

I have no idea what law you broke, but it is safe to assume that if you broke it once, you can break it again. You might not want to due to unhappy prison memories, but is it unreasonable to assume you can't break it again? In any circumstance? 

Just like everyone that knows me, knows what I was capable of once, and that I can do it again. I was in a situation, and got what I wanted. Given the situation again, would I pursue it again? Who knows. 

That is why, the single action defines us. 
We did it once under a set of circumstances. 
Under a similar or maybe even a completely different situation, we may do it again. 

We can only prove ourselves under the situations our lives present to us. Not the hypothetical ones, but the realities that life gives us. 
I proved I can't hold my temper when given the choice. But I did prove I can keep it in my pants when my XW couldn't (trust me, I had plenty of options after DDay)


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Juicer said:


> I tried removing the manhood from the OM.



 Dare I even ask?


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

To each his own. R or D, based on your situation, value system, tolerance level, social outlook, and etcetera and etcetera.

However, this cuts to the heart of the matter:



Juicer said:


> You can say you don't think a single action should define someone, but it does.
> 
> Because single actions show us what kind of person you really are. What kind of person you really are inside when the going gets tough. Not the person you pretend to be, or want to be, but the person you truly are.
> 
> ...


Like I've read so many times on this forum: when someone shows you who they are, believe them.


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## Rand OmGuy (Apr 1, 2013)

juice, 
We won't agree on this man. That's ok. Am i capable of doing it again, sure. Are we all capable of doing terible things? Yes. Most do not because they choose not to. 

Just as i choose not to break the law again. Not because of prison fears, but because i choose to be a better person than i was. 

We can be defined by the choice to learn from a mistake and not repeat it. 

Can your XW be defined forever as a cheater, highly possible. I won't pass judgement as i don't know her. 

Just as i don't know you, but i don't think you can be defined as a bad, violent person because of a violent action.

Unrelated to my prison time, i put a man in the hospital while defending myself. He had to have reconstructive surgery on his orbital and jaw bones. (No charges ever filed) That doesn't make me a violent person. I am capable of violence, but i am not violent unprovoked. I don't go walking around beating the crap out of people for no reason. 

Just my oppinion. 

Anyway man, i feel bad for making a bad day worse for you. Anytime you want to PM me and vent or anything, you're welcome to.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I hear what you're saying. I'm not religious either, but I do think in terms of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I'm not the perfect wife. Granted, I've never done anything as harmful to our marriage as cheat, but everybody is flawed. 

My husband has done a lot of good in this world and has helped a LOT of people, my family members included. He's also suffered a lot, with medical issues and in recent years, anxiety which has been tinged with depression. He says he wasn't "thinking straight" when the A was going on, and as I think back to some of his "odd" behaviors, he really wasn't himself. Prior to the A he had started IC due to a panic attack which finally convinced him the anxiety was becoming more than he could handle on his own. No excuse, but perhaps helps to explain some of it.

Anyway, I chose not to just kick him out and get a D. Yes, the PA was short-lived, which was better than if it had been a year or two or three. R has been difficult, but in my case it would have felt wrong not to try. I feel the vows meant that we should try, even after something like this. If it had been the other way around (though I can't imagine myself ever doing what he did), I would hope he'd have responded the same way.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Rand OmGuy said:


> The co-habitation scenario is one that i never understood. Where is the committment in that?


Same place it is in marriage - nowhere. Hence the overwhelming number of cheaters.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

domah said:


> In today's society, divorce is already easy. The laws (no-fault divorce, uni-lateral divorces, etc) are already set up to make divorce one-sided and easy. A marriage contract in today's legal environment is not a commitment. How one can even call it a contract is beyond me. In any other field of law, a contract that can be uni-laterally cancelled, force the non-breaching party to give up half their assets and potentially pay a penalty (alimony) for the rest of their lives would be thrown out of court and deemed illegal. But not so in family law. The family court system is almost like a parallel court system that has archaic laws that border on in-humane. For example, the concept of debtor's prisons have been done away with 200 years ago being considered in-humane and not compatible with a modern society; however, few know that debtor's prisons still exist today. Miss an alimony payment, or lose your job and can't pay child support and you are going to jail (ie. a modern debtor's prison). Why a rational adult would even consider subjecting themselves to such things can only boil down to emotional irrationality. Marriage is not a commitment, it is mostly just irrational.


Well put.

"No fault divorce". Perhaps the most asinine thing I've ever heard.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Juicer said:


> So triggered, and then come home to read this. And this set me off.
> Going to disagree with you. 100%
> 
> You don't believe one act should define someone?
> ...


Yes - she voided the contract, yet we are still obliged to hold up our end of the contract (paying them). It's nauseating.


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