# "Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?!"



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

I posted this on my private Facebook group for guys in Dead Bedrooms. The response was... lukewarm.

_*"I don't get it. Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?"*_

I've heard some variation of this for years. From friends in my pre-DSO days up until today with emails from readers and guys posting on Facebook.

What is it guys are saying with this, exactly?

*"I have physical needs. She knows I have physical needs. Why can't she just set aside her disgust and be the masturbatory device that I need right now?"
*
Ouch. That ain't good.

Do you REALLY want some robot woman to sit there and pleasure you while she's thinking about doing laundry and *“Oh God... just hurry up already"?*

The *"Why can't she just shut up and pleasure me?"* line of thinking is just wrong on so many levels.

1. You're admitting her lack of attraction. You don't care. You have needs.
2. You recognize that she's not aroused. You don't care. You have needs.
3. You recognize that it may take "work" to get your wife to the position where she WANTS to give you pleasure. You don't care. You have needs.

I've used this analogy before... so bear with me:

Let's say your wife that you love so much is suddenly 200 lbs heavier, smells like cheese, and has a beard. She's still your wife... but through some kind of hormonal wizardry, she has become an objectively gross person. You've hinted at her going to the gym. You've left out razors and shaving cream. You throw out the junk food. You buy her fancy soaps. Yet, still, she can't take the hint. Naturally, you've started avoiding her. Touching... kissing... oh god... SEX?! No way. Not happening.

She notices the change in you. She gets pissed. _*"It's like you don't even like me anymore." *_Then she gets more pissed. *"Would it kill you to just go down on me every now and then?! I'm not asking for much! It would make me feel better about myself, you know!"*

So you grin and bear it... you do the deed... and you take a 30-minute shower afterward.

Now some of you may be saying, *"Dude... nothing's changed. I'm still the same guy. I'm not grossly overweight. I'm not disgusting. I'm loving and I do everything I'm supposed to do. I'm not asking much from her."

*Then I suggest you read The Dead Bedroom Fix if you haven't done so already. Already read it? Read it again. You must get into the mindset of the guy who doesn't NEED his woman. You don't NEED her affirmation and constant validation. You don't NEED her, period. You would prefer that she stick around... but if you do all the hard work and you become an UNDENIABLY good husband candidate, and she still turns her nose up at you... that's cool. Not the end of the world. Life is by no means over without her.

THAT is precisely the mindset that builds attraction. When somebody NEEDS you, it's an instant libido-killer. You're encroaching on the world of parenthood... and being a parent is the antithesis of being a sexual being. It's anti-eroticism. You must be the escape and the oasis away from that world of "I NEED YOU". If not, something or SOMEBODY else will be that escape.

By saying, "*Why can you just give me sex?!"*... you're advertising your NEED in a very very blunt and, frankly, very pathetic way. It's the double whammy of attraction killing.

Then, years down the line when you're in therapy with a wife who cheated on you and filed for divorce, she says to you, *"It just felt like RAPE all those years. I didn't want to do those things and you just didn't care."*

Does she have a point?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> I posted this on my private Facebook group for guys in Dead Bedrooms. The response was... lukewarm.
> 
> _*"I don't get it. Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?"*_
> 
> ...


Wow! Maybe men should be more sensitive and we should blame him rather than the woman!

As a man reading this in the year 1853, I find the a radically new idea.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its very situation dependent. There are some people (men and women) who only want sexual things that directly please them. They want to receive oral but no provide, because doing oral is "different for men and women" -( I've heard that claim both directions) They want the sex positions that feel good for them, even if their partners don't really like them. The result can be a very unbalanced sex life where one person start to feel like a sex slave. (not in the fun way)

So someone who doesn't want do to oral is fine - if that is it, though of course their partner has the right to end the relationship if they are not happy. OTOH I think it is a problem if someone is selfish or controlling in bed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DSO, what's the continuance of your thought, though? So yeah, be someone attractive, on many levels... and if she still doesn't want to, you say, it's not the end of the world. 

BUT so what then? What do you suggest next??? Just live the rest of your life never experiencing oral sex? What if you are NOT cool with that? Heck I know many women who would not be okay with never experiencing receiving oral in their life again.

So, what's next after becoming the most attractive man you can be and trying to ACT like it's all cool if you never experience oral sex again???


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Livvie said:


> DSO, what's the continuance of your thought, though? So yeah, be someone attractive, on many levels... and if she still doesn't want to, you say, it's not the end of the world.
> 
> BUT so what then? What do you suggest next??? Just live the rest of your life never experiencing oral sex? What if you are NOT cool with that? Heck I know many women who would not be okay with never experiencing receiving oral in their life again.
> 
> So, what's next after becoming the most attractive man you can be and trying to ACT like it's all cool if you never experience oral sex again???


You move on


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

A rant worthy post, well here's one for ya.

When a person is taught from a young age to lie and fake relationships, why is it some surprise that they wind up in a sexual relationship with someone they aren't attracted to. When the social construct said that people should form permanent bonds before experiencing sex, we were some how surprised that people got into relationships that were incompatible. and unbreakable. it became a quality to be constant and faithful in a dysfunctional bond. And it hasn't ended. Sure I'm old enough that my kids have had the chance to make the same mistakes I did. And moms out there of kids young enough to be my grandchildren want me to substitute the words "naughty things" for the word "sex". 

When you live in a world that accepts naughty things as a definition of the bonding joyous energy that holds a couple together, you get . . . . this mess we are in.

stop lying, stop trusting liars.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> A rant worthy post, well here's one for ya.
> 
> When a person is taught from a young age to lie and fake relationships, why is it some surprise that they wind up in a sexual relationship with someone they aren't attracted to. When the social construct said that people should form permanent bonds before experiencing sex, we were some how surprised that people got into relationships that were incompatible. and unbreakable. it became a quality to be constant and faithful in a dysfunctional bond. And it hasn't ended. Sure I'm old enough that my kids have had the chance to make the same mistakes I did. And moms out there of kids young enough to be my grandchildren want me to substitute the words "naughty things" for the word "sex".
> 
> ...


It's only a (positive) quality to be constant and faithful in a dysfunctional bond if you decide it so.

There are plenty of people in the world who don't believe this, who believe it's a negative quality, and living an inauthentic lie to remain in a dysfunctional, unhappy bond/ marriage.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> Then, years down the line when you're in therapy with a wife who cheated on you and filed for divorce, she says to you, *"It just felt like RAPE all those years. I didn't want to do those things and you just didn't care."*
> 
> Does she have a point?


I don't think you should throw around rape (or "RAPE") so loosely. It's insulting to those who have truly experienced this. I've also had bad sex, gross sex, sex i regretted and sex where there was no attraction. But it wasn't rape and it should not be confused with rape. Unfortunately I know the difference. To say bad sex or "duty sex" or agreeing to sex when you don't feel like it or anything but rape is rape is insulting and trivializing it.

Is "feeling like RAPE" the new exaggerated way to say that you had sex that wasn't that great? Or that you have duty sex with a spouse that's less attractive to you now? Next we'll see people saying "my husband gained weight and is losing his hair. Ugghhh. He still expects me to have sex with him but it LITERALLY feels like RAPE! LOL".


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

> Let's say your wife *that you love so much* is suddenly 200 lbs heavier, smells like cheese, and has a beard. She's still your wife... but through some kind of hormonal wizardry, she has become an objectively gross person. You've hinted at her going to the gym. You've left out razors and shaving cream. You throw out the junk food. You buy her fancy soaps. Yet, still, she can't take the hint. Naturally, you've started avoiding her. Touching... kissing... oh god... SEX?! No way. Not happening.
> 
> She notices the change in you. She gets pissed. "It's like you don't even like me anymore." Then she gets more pissed. "Would it kill you to just go down on me every now and then?! I'm not asking for much! It would make me feel better about myself, you know!"


If I still have feelings for her and she shows affection to me, I don't care that much how gross she is. Yes. Yes, I would go down on her. On your way you can surreptitiously brush away any extra chunks / funkyness and once you've sucked/licked for a bit the sour taste just becomes the taste of skin or your own saliva.

From the other direction nagging about sexual favors is going to make willing participation less likely for this time and for future instances as well. Don't hold them to the standard you have for yourself since they might not have the same feelings or perspective. You're generally talking to guys and as my ex used to say "Your right hand still works."

The other side of the coin being, if she doesn't show affection and treats me poorly, it doesn't matter how good she looks. The "relationship" is over at that point anyway except for the paperwork (if you're married). A big contributor to the situations you are talking about is people staying together long after the natural end to their relationship. There isn't any real feeling or regard for/from the SO but you're not moving on for some reason. In the absence of feelings, you're not going to have the motivation to do things for the other person whether it is sexual, time spent, buying presents, or whatever your love language is.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Is it possible that she had a traumatic or embarrassing experience with going down on a guy before you? Thinks semen is disgusting? Thinks it’s degrading? Tastes gross? Your junk smells bad? Hates cum in her hair? Gagged and threw up on a guy?

I would start with these questions before you assume she’s just being difficult or a prude.

If she knew about this and internationally hid before marriage that’s a problem of not being honest... not that you avoid someone who hates fellatio.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Completely agree. Using extreme terms (rape, war crimes etc) for relatively minor problems, simply weakens those terms. 

For some reason a lot of people seem to have difficulty dealing with shades of bad. That its possibly to have very bad unpleasant sex, but for it not to be nearly as bad as rape. I would only apply rape when some form of illegal coercion was involved. 

That said, unwanted sex can still be miserable. 




JustTheWife said:


> I don't think you should throw around rape (or "RAPE") so loosely. It's insulting to those who have truly experienced this. I've also had bad sex, gross sex, sex i regretted and sex where there was no attraction. But it wasn't rape and it should not be confused with rape. Unfortunately I know the difference. To say bad sex or "duty sex" or agreeing to sex when you don't feel like it or anything but rape is rape is insulting and trivializing it.
> 
> Is "feeling like RAPE" the new exaggerated way to say that you had sex that wasn't that great? Or that you have duty sex with a spouse that's less attractive to you now? Next we'll see people saying "my husband gained weight and is losing his hair. Ugghhh. He still expects me to have sex with him but it LITERALLY feels like RAPE! LOL".


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Completely agree. Using extreme terms (rape, war crimes etc) for relatively minor problems, simply weakens those terms.
> 
> For some reason a lot of people seem to have difficulty dealing with shades of bad. That its possibly to have very bad unpleasant sex, but for it not to be nearly as bad as rape. I would only apply rape when some form of illegal coercion was involved.
> 
> That said, unwanted sex can still be miserable.


The OP produced some of the most banal and at the same time sensationalist crap I have ever read. 

The assumption is that the man has no consideration as to what she wants, i.e. that men are usually abusive rapists. But! We can buy his book and that will cure things!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What do you mean by "lukewarm response"? Were there few responses or the respondents weren't responding favorably?

Are the responses in this thread going to find their way into your next book? Or any publication?


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Numb26 said:


> You move on


Exactly. I thought that was clear.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> The OP produced some of the most banal and at the same time sensationalist crap I have ever read.
> 
> The assumption is that the man has no consideration as to what she wants, i.e. that men are usually abusive rapists. But! We can buy his book and that will cure things!


I seemed to have struck a nerve.

The term "rape" is not one that I myself throw around... but rather one countless men have heard in therapy coming from the mouths of their wives (the men that end up on my site). The man wanted sex. She said no. He pushed. She said no. He pushed... she finally caves. At the time it was a just simple eye roll and sigh, _*"Fine... lets go. Make it fast. My back hurts."*_ The man has his needs met, wife didn't say anything more... all was good. 

Years later, after these men discover their wife's affair, the guy strong arms the wife into going to therapy to "save" the marriage. The wife agrees and then tearfully rips the man apart. "And for the last five years you've been pressuring me for sex and I told you no but you just kept pushing anyway! Sometimes it felt like RAPE!"

I had a reader the other day tell me that his wife's own therapist convinced her that what she experienced was rape. 

Awful stong word to throw around... but don't get caught up in the definition and validity of the term. The FEELINGS are still there: Sex wasn't wanted. It wasn't desired. It was made clear. The man pressured anyway. His physical needs trumped that of his wife's own desires and feelings. Do that dozens of times in a marriage, PLUS add in some history-revising emotions that come with an affair... and I can totally see how the R word is tossed out so easily.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> I seemed to have struck a nerve.
> 
> *The term "rape" is not one that I myself throw around*... but rather one countless men have heard in therapy coming from the mouths of their wives (the men that end up on my site). The man wanted sex. She said no. He pushed. She said no. He pushed... she finally caves. At the time it was a just simple eye roll and sigh, _*"Fine... lets go. Make it fast. My back hurts."*_ The man has his needs met, wife didn't say anything more... all was good.
> 
> ...


You actually did just throw the word around. What you are descibing is clearly rape. 

We all have to make a living. It is a shame you hae to be sleazy about it.

About 10% of people are pretty horrible people, who will not respect the common decency of their culture. An old part of patriarchy was it treated women as passive property with no will nor responibility beyond their Fathers/husbad's will, rather than people. The anglo-saxon world has eliminated half of that narrative.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> I seemed to have struck a nerve.
> 
> The term "rape" is not one that I myself throw around... but rather one countless men have heard in therapy coming from the mouths of their wives (the men that end up on my site). The man wanted sex. She said no. He pushed. She said no. He pushed... she finally caves. At the time it was a just simple eye roll and sigh, _*"Fine... lets go. Make it fast. My back hurts."*_ The man has his needs met, wife didn't say anything more... all was good.
> 
> ...



What you originally described in the OP was a man becoming "needy", unattractive to his wife, and then begging for sex. That's not rape and it does not feel like rape to anyone who really has experienced rape. Even if it's bad, unpleasant, icky, or horrible.

Now your position has changed and you're talking about being pestered constantly and pressured hard for sex until you give in. As awful as this is, it's probably not rape either (every case is different) but you're attempting to move your point in that direction and muddy the waters. 

I'm not "caught up in the definition and validity of the term". Words have meaning and anyone who writes books should take care with the words used.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> What you originally described in the OP was a man becoming "needy", unattractive to his wife, and then begging for sex. That's not rape and it does not feel like rape to anyone who really has experienced rape. Even if it's bad, unpleasant, icky, or horrible.
> 
> Now your position has changed and you're talking about being pestered constantly and pressured hard for sex until you give in. As awful as this is, it's probably not rape either (every case is different) but you're attempting to move your point in that direction and muddy the waters.
> 
> I'm not "caught up in the definition and validity of the term". Words have meaning and anyone who writes books should take care with the words used.


I agree.

I think he has not come up with the revelation that both partners have 50% responsibility. In anglo-saxon circles now as he should be the do-er. In the old days, we put blame on the woman as she should be the accommodater. Had he been writing 50 years ago, he would be blaming the woman.

We both have a responsibility to understand and regard the other person's needs and feeling, to act and accommodate as possible. But, only that. We cannot be held responsible if we are the only partner making either effort or consideration.

And bravo for "Words have meaning and anyone who writes books should take care with the words used".


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm amazed that this is so complicated for people

if: "I told you no but you just kept pushing anyway!" means that he continued to have sex after she told him to stop, then that is rape. 

OTOH, if that means that he continued to complain, sulk, beg, whatever and she gave in, then that isn't rape. 

Begging, or threatening to divorce is not rape. Anyone can beg for anything they want. Anyone can threaten divorce over anything that they wish - we have alimony and other systems intended to keep the divorced spouse from being destitute. 

Threatening non-legal action, like physical violence is different, that does become rape.

Begging or saying you will leave may be a very bad / selfish thing to do, but I don't see how it counts as rape. 




dadstartingover said:


> I seemed to have struck a nerve.
> 
> The term "rape" is not one that I myself throw around... but rather one countless men have heard in therapy coming from the mouths of their wives (the men that end up on my site). The man wanted sex. She said no. He pushed. She said no. He pushed... she finally caves. At the time it was a just simple eye roll and sigh, _*"Fine... lets go. Make it fast. My back hurts."*_ The man has his needs met, wife didn't say anything more... all was good.
> 
> ...


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I'm amazed that this is so complicated for people
> 
> if: "I told you no but you just kept pushing anyway!" means that he continued to have sex after she told him to stop, then that is rape.
> 
> ...


He posted it originally. No doubt people tried to explain to him why he was talking crap, and he just posted it again on here. 

The wisdom that there is in the post is that we should be considerate to our partners and understand their needs. Yet, he does not fully understand that either. 

Reading his other posts, he seems to be promoting a Niceness ideal. That other men are usually decent and make an effort to be considerate and understand their partners would undermine his narrative which seems to be "I have learnt, therefore I am special and bad things can't happen to me".


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?!


When I read the title my brain instantly said ..... bass boat. Why can't she just give me a bass boat ?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I'm amazed that this is so complicated for people
> 
> if: "I told you no but you just kept pushing anyway!" means that he continued to have sex after she told him to stop, then that is rape.
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on where you live. We have a member who lives in North Carolina who pestered his wife for sex and his wife made the claim that it was rape and her therapist agreed. He genuinely didn't/doesn't understand how wearing his wife down could be considered rape.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

This seems to be a lukewarm response.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

JustTheWife said:


> I don't think you should throw around rape (or "RAPE") so loosely. It's insulting to those who have truly experienced this. I've also had bad sex, gross sex, sex i regretted and sex where there was no attraction. But it wasn't rape and it should not be confused with rape. Unfortunately I know the difference. To say bad sex or "duty sex" or agreeing to sex when you don't feel like it or anything but rape is rape is insulting and trivializing it.
> 
> Is "feeling like RAPE" the new exaggerated way to say that you had sex that wasn't that great? Or that you have duty sex with a spouse that's less attractive to you now? Next we'll see people saying "my husband gained weight and is losing his hair. Ugghhh. He still expects me to have sex with him but it LITERALLY feels like RAPE! LOL".


The problem is that some will redefine the past using inappropriate terms, specifically rape, because it is such an emotional thing that there's not a good response to it. How do you tell a wife that says she felt like she had been raped that in fact she's wrong, that she doesn't understand the meaning of the word because the events didn't warrant it? In a nutshell, the woman saying this about her husband has an advantage because the guy... well, she can just say there's no way a guy can understand what it means to be "forced" to have sex against her will, and she's right in saying that. 

My wife, in an unfortunate moment, said something along the lines of yes, I had "raped" her once. She didn't for an instant think about what effect hearing those words would have on me, or for how long (obviously, decades). At the time she said that, her context was that her preferred amount of sex would be once, maybe twice, a month. And this was her way of trying to tell me I was being unreasonable thinking it should be twice a week. So she said she'd just gone along but since she really didn't want to, it was "rape." She didn't tell me no at the time. She did say she was tired. She was upset that I was horny and wanted sex. 

Years later she understands why that was a wrong thing to say, that I've been an extraordinarily accommodating husband, supporting her in whatever she wished to do. But I fear that "rape" in marriage happens both more, and less, than we think. But again, I'm a guy, so I don't understand because I can't understand.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> _*Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?*_


It can be hard for a woman, when they experience temporomandibular joint dysfunction while doing it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> I posted this on my private Facebook group for guys in Dead Bedrooms. The response was... lukewarm.
> 
> _*"I don't get it. Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?"*_
> 
> ...


*In a damned one-word reply: "No!"

Her defense is totally based upon the precepts of selfishness and/or fear!*


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *In a damned one-word reply: "No!"
> 
> Her defense is totally based upon the precepts of selfishness and/or fear!*


Indeed. The whole act of commiting yourself to one partner is essentially one of accepting vulnerability.

If either spouse disregard the other partners wants or feelings because they are in that vulnerable position, it is they that are the problem in a marriage.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> Indeed. The whole act of commiting yourself to one partner is essentially one of accepting vulnerability.
> 
> If either spouse disregard the other partners wants or feelings because they are in that vulnerable position, it is they that are the problem in a marriage.


I'm trying my best to form a cogent thought from your various replies... and I'm coming up empty. Obviously you're emotional, and that's clouding your responses. 

Are you saying that a man's needs supersede the feelings of unattraction and disgust that his wife may feel at that moment? She should just DO those things because... marriage? Or are you masterfully playing both sides here? I'm a dude (in case that wasn't clear), so I don't deal well with nuance. Lay it out for me, amigo.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I try so hard to understand these threads. I really do. I can only come to the conclusion that those of us that have like minded thoughts about sex should stick with one another. I do understand the attraction thing, none of us are going to look the same forever. But for a lot of couples thats no biggie either, they have accepted that growing old together doesn't have to mean a loss of their intimate connection. Even when happy couples both get fat together...they still want to ****. I just think its more important to some than others. 

For some sex is simply a lower priority as far as things to do for the day are concerned. At this point not sure there is much anyone can do if they are with a partner like that other than find a new one. Speaking of BJs. I was on vacay last week and I saw a woman who looked to be in her 70s giving her husband a BJ, literally on the beach. I thought to myself good for them. My girlfriend who is a nurse told me of a couple where the husband was in the hospital and it looked like he wasn't going to be leaving. She caught his wife giving him a BJ and gave them their privacy. I guess thats the kind of connection I wish all of us had. But unfortunately that isn't the case for many of us. Not sure my post has a point. Just rambling LoL, and also pointing out that in most sexually healthy relationships, oral sex is a part of it and not that big of a deal.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> I'm trying my best to form a cogent thought from your various replies... and I'm coming up empty. Obviously you're emotional, and that's clouding your responses.
> 
> Are you saying that a man's needs supersede the feelings of unattraction and disgust that his wife may feel at that moment? She should just DO those things because... marriage? Or are you masterfully playing both sides here? I'm a dude (in case that wasn't clear), so I don't deal well with nuance. Lay it out for me, amigo.


To declare another poster is being emotional from text is to dismiss them without discussion. It is rude and arrogant, and I do not think you are an arrogant man. I suspect you have found some new insight, and believing yourself far more insightful that most, think it is a novel insight.

I am saying that there is a minority of people that are deeply unpleasant people who will disregard the social mores of their time. They will not consider the feelings of their partner's needs, only their own. Tragically, we can disregard them. 

Marriage is a solemnisation of a sexual union traditionally. By its nature, each partner should consider the other's needs in that context. That means considering what they find attractive and also considering their needs. We have a duty to a spouse who enters into a covenant to not sleep with anyone else, to ensure their needs can be fulfilled within the marriage. 

That has two angles. A person who cannot be bothered to make any appearance for their spouse is failing to fulfill their part. Equally, we have to have reasonable expectations of our partners and commit to our responsibilities to them. My partner has needs, and to allow them to remain unsatisfied because I cannot be bothered or am not particularly inclined would be to take advantage of their vulnerability. Were I to lose my sexual drive, I could neglect my partner and consider their need in those circumstances to be a sign of weakness, but that would be evidentally callous.

You are also stumbling on life's imperfections. Ideally, sex would be a beautiful occasion in which two married people come together to physically give and receive an expression of love that they both want to give and accept. But, reality is not like that. Sometimes, we are not particularly in the mood, but out partner is really horny so we make an effort. Sometimes it is the other way round. Sometimes, we just need relief, other times we might be going through the motions for the good of the relationship. Sometimes we might be doing something that really turns on our partner, even though it does nothing for us. That is the nature of love, but it is also imperfect. 
--------

Who is responsible in a relationship? The easy answer is that we both are, but who we hold responsible can also be assessed by whom we blame. There was a time in which women were held to be passive to such an extent, that a woman was meant to have so little will of their own that it could be subjected to the man's will. This was her responsibility and if she 'failed', the resulting break up of the marriage would be blamed on the woman, i.e. the woman was held to be responsible. 

You reject this. Rightly. It is good you do so IMO. It also fits in with the social norm of today.You still write with a huge amound of misogyny though that fits with some parts of the USA. The woman in your discussion is still passive, a yin to her husband's yang. It is progress, but it treats women as the child in the relationship and the man as the adult, whose job it is to accept responsibility of his charge and care for her. It is a better model than the one before. It appeals to the type of man who wants to be the "good guy", but whose morality is like that of a domesticated animal, who is a "good boy".

But, it still feels short of reality. Women do have more freedom. Society is still largely and erroneously based around being male as the default. For much of the global world though, many of the forces that enforce sexism are more subtle. 

In the UK and West Germany, feminism moved things forward to the model where the man was responsible. The result was that relationship counselling seeks to find out what the man is doing wrong. 

In Scandinavia and East Germany, feminism moved things forward to the model where both were responsible. The result was that relationship counselling seeks to find out where they are wrong with each other. The other result is that the professional success of Scandinavian and East German out strips the professional success of their counterparts to the west, even in the professional world where masculinity is seen as the default preference.

Your vision strips women of agency. It is sexist nonsense. 

------------------------------------
The reasonable thinking you present is to reject the social laws of the past. You are right to do so. But, you fully accept the social laws of today with no reflection. That is the actions of a man who is domesticated. 

One issue we have on this forum is men who think that if they treat their wives in a different way, then their marriage would be saved. The problem is they see it as their responsibility as the husband. When I was a young man in the UK, I would marvel that some girls would never consider themselves to blam eof anything in their relationships. I grew older and considered how helpless they would feel in relationships that kept going wrong, but as it was always the man's responsibility they could do nothing wrong. Having now lived in societies that are more progressive than the UK, more regressive and about the same, I can see how powerful the narratives are. You have tapped into your surrounding narrative and elucidating it, you present it as wisdom. I feel this is a grave error.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> I try so hard to understand these threads. I really do. I can only come to the conclusion that those of us that have like minded thoughts about sex should stick with one another. I do understand the attraction thing, none of us are going to look the same forever. But for a lot of couples thats no biggie either, they have accepted that growing old together doesn't have to mean a loss of their intimate connection. Even when happy couples both get fat together...they still want to ****. I just think its more important to some than others.
> 
> For some sex is simply a lower priority as far as things to do for the day are concerned. At this point not sure there is much anyone can do if they are with a partner like that other than find a new one. Speaking of BJs. I was on vacay last week and I saw a woman who looked to be in her 70s giving her husband a BJ, literally on the beach. I thought to myself good for them. My girlfriend who is a nurse told me of a couple where the husband was in the hospital and it looked like he wasn't going to be leaving. She caught his wife giving him a BJ and gave them their privacy. I guess thats the kind of connection I wish all of us had. But unfortunately that isn't the case for many of us. Not sure my post has a point. Just rambling LoL, and also pointing out that in most sexually healthy relationships, oral sex is a part of it and not that big of a deal.


It was a ramble, but a rather beautiful one. 
Thanks


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

ReformedHubby said:


> I try so hard to understand these threads. I really do. I can only come to the conclusion that those of us that have like minded thoughts about sex should stick with one another. I do understand the attraction thing, none of us are going to look the same forever. But for a lot of couples thats no biggie either, they have accepted that growing old together doesn't have to mean a loss of their intimate connection. Even when happy couples both get fat together...they still want to ****. I just think its more important to some than others.
> 
> For some sex is simply a lower priority as far as things to do for the day are concerned. At this point not sure there is much anyone can do if they are with a partner like that other than find a new one. Speaking of BJs. I was on vacay last week and I saw a woman who looked to be in her 70s giving her husband a BJ, literally on the beach. I thought to myself good for them. My girlfriend who is a nurse told me of a couple where the husband was in the hospital and it looked like he wasn't going to be leaving. She caught his wife giving him a BJ and gave them their privacy. I guess thats the kind of connection I wish all of us had. But unfortunately that isn't the case for many of us. Not sure my post has a point. Just rambling LoL, and also pointing out that in most sexually healthy relationships, oral sex is a part of it and not that big of a deal.


Careful, mister; that kindof stinkin' thinkin' ain't gonna sell the OP any books0


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My first hb....kids dad...was like this. Pushed until he got off with pretty much no thought to whether I either wanted it or got anything out of it (no and no).

It never felt remotely like a rape....it felt like him being a *********.

He actually told me that I was supposed to **** him when he wanted it and pretend like I liked it. Seriously.....you can't make this **** up. 

I divorced him....problem solved. He later admitted that he felt entitled because he supported us (I worked part time but had two little kids and he did nothing to help).

You can demand access but you can't demand enthusiasm. However....if you're going to demand access knowing enthusiasm isn't there you need to keep in mind that there will likely be a cost.

I never respected my ex less than when he pushed for sex I both didn't want and got nothing out of. I would've actually respected him a lot more if he'd taken the attitude that taking care of himself was preferable, and who knows what that respect might have led to.

Respect for our man is an aphrodisiac for women.

I still respect my current guy and guess what? I look forward to sex with him.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> My first hb....kids dad...was like this. Pushed until he got off with pretty much no thought to whether I either wanted it or got anything out of it (no and no).
> 
> It never felt remotely like a rape....it felt like him being a *********.
> 
> ...


I must agree that your first husband sounds like an arse. I am pretty sure the vast majority of people would agree.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> I'm trying my best to form a cogent thought from your various replies... and I'm coming up empty. Obviously you're emotional, and that's clouding your responses.
> 
> Are you saying that a man's needs supersede the feelings of unattraction and disgust that his wife may feel at that moment? She should just DO those things because... marriage? Or are you masterfully playing both sides here? I'm a dude (in case that wasn't clear), so I don't deal well with nuance. Lay it out for me, amigo.


I have read your website. 

It is not bad. I actually like it. That said, if you present yourself as a guru who has thought deeply about these things, you must be able to present wisdom and insight to match that. 

Clearly, you have relevent experience. 

The worst men for giving relationship advice are those who were terrible with women and then got lukcy with a great woman and got married. As society gives the man responsibility for a marriage, they are keen to pass on their wisdom and leave their earlier failure behind.

It is good to have someone like you. You have seen that you have failed and were self-critical. I really find that admirable. You have updated your approach and taken responsibility. That you were able to take responsibility for your ex-wife cheating on you and look at where you were to blame is impressive and very much up to date. 

It is also fulfilling to take responsibility. Perhaps our greatest primal fear is chaos beyond our control. We must also accept that we can do everything right, but that our wives have a will and responsibility equal to our own. One of the subtexts that I admire on TAM is that first on foremost you work on what you can control, i.e. being the best person you can aspire to be (including a great husband and Father). That gives your marriage the best chance is has.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> I must agree that your first husband sounds like an arse. I am pretty sure the vast majority of people would agree.


He definitely was.

I don't mean to imply that most of the guys here are remotely like that....I was making more of a point surrounding the rape claim. I realize I can't speak for all women of course.....I just can't wrap my mind around this being a rape even with an ex who was a huge douche.

He didn't threaten or physically force me.....only pushed until I caved. But I still had agency and made a choice to shut him up.

I think its important that we as women recognize that empowerment has brought up agency and we can use that agency until it is taken away from us. Making a choice to shut someone up is not the same thing as having one's agency removed. 

Rape happen when agency is removed.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> To declare another poster is being emotional from text is to dismiss them without discussion. It is rude and arrogant, and I do not think you are an arrogant man. I suspect you have found some new insight, and believing yourself far more insightful that most, think it is a novel insight.
> 
> I am saying that there is a minority of people that are deeply unpleasant people who will disregard the social mores of their time. They will not consider the feelings of their partner's needs, only their own. Tragically, we can disregard them.
> 
> ...


Ah, now I'm with you.

Perspective is everything. I think you're applying PhD level analysis to a thought that came from admittedly simple, Neandrathalic, "Men want more sex but sure don't know how to get it!" perspective. That's the crux of the book. This ain't Tolstoy. 

I talk to a lot of men. Probably half from the USA, half from the UK (for what it's worth). Half of my books have sold in the UK. The men come to me because they are either divorced from a woman who treated them awfully and they have a hard time coming to terms with her lack of perfection he bestowed upon her... or they just can't get sex from the woman they love more than anything on the planet. For the latter, after much back-and-forth, the conclusion always comes to, "Geez... what did you expect?!" Men, again and again, commit some of the most obviously lop-sided mistakes that they think SHOULD result in arousal... but do not. Then a giant percentage of these men discover that their wives DID have a sex drive after all... but it was aimed at romance novels, pornography (yes, women do this, too) or even a physical affair. 

The energy was in there. They didn't allow their husbands into that world. The man was the quintessential "Provider" who completely ignored all the need for more LOVER qualities. "I shouldn't have to do that... I'm her husband". I hear this again and again and again. I was that guy, as you probably gleaned from reading my site.

As far as putting women on a pedestal and removing all agency... I have bluntly told men that have tried all they can to reignite their marriage to LEAVE. I don't hold onto the notion of "for sickness and in health" when the faults of the marriage point to "My wife has obvious disdain for me". I also don't hold on to the notion that a single monogamous marriage is the final endgame for everyone. I think it's perfectly ok for a man to leave the wife who passively dumped him years ago and have a series of steamy relationships. I know men like this. They're not unhappy.

I think we're at a fundamental impasse. I completely understand the notion of "Hey... marriage isn't porn sex all the time. Sometimes somebody wants it, and the other doesn't... but you can compromise and do it anyway. Such is life." While it makes logical sense, it also lulls one or both spouses into a state of complacency. Blahness. No passion. One becomes the masturbatory device for the other. Resentment builds. Passion is lacking. And then... the wake-up. This usually comes in the form of some dumb bimbo at work applying heaps of validation to the man who's been in a sexless marriage for months/years... or the dangerous bartender who tells the tired mother of 3 that she is "really sexy" and pours her a free drink. 

That's the perspective I bring to this. Ultimate responsibility. I can only speak for myself and the men I help. Over the past decade, I have had the most insanely fulfilling, loving and erotic relationship I could ever imagine. It takes work. That work is exactly what I outline in the book. Hey, it ain't for everybody. I admit it. But I have dozens of emails a day saying that it was a tremendous wake-up call. What is a "Duh... what a bunch of misogynistic/feminist (insert your political demon here) crap" to one person is a grand epiphany to others.

Thanks for your input. I do appreciate it. Good food for thought.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> Ah,
> 
> I think we're at a fundamental impasse. I completely understand the notion of "Hey... marriage isn't porn sex all the time. Sometimes somebody wants it, and the other doesn't... but you can compromise and do it anyway. Such is life." While it makes logical sense, it also lulls one or both spouses into a state of complacency. Blahness. No passion. One becomes the masturbatory device for the other. Resentment builds. Passion is lacking. And then... the wake-up. This usually comes in the form of some dumb bimbo at work applying heaps of validation to the man who's been in a sexless marriage for months/years... or the dangerous bartender who tells the tired mother of 3 that she is "really sexy" and pours her a free drink.



Awesome summary. I’m of the opinion that we all seek comfort and that stoking passion, personal growth, etc takes effort. And when life sets in, that goes out the window quickly. And more often than not, at this point, there is little risk to “outsourcing” your partner’s need to someone or something else. Husband doesn’t want deep conversations? She goes to her girlfriends. She shuts down engaging sex? He goes to porn. He’s working too much and has no energy for sex so she buys a vibrator. Husband stops noticing his wife’s nice body? She dresses up and goes with her girlfriend and hangs it out there for other guys to see. Wife dismisses husbands compliments, affirmation, gifts, etc? He’ll latch on to the first woman who actually appreciates it. He’d rather watch football all-day Sunday and she wants to go out and doing something as a couple? She goes out with her girlfriends. Nagging your spouse? They’ll seek out someone who doesn’t. So you’ve outsourced a lot of sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, intimacy, and validation to other people. 

Just because you’re “happily married” doesn’t mean that other people don’t want to take your place. Plenty of men would have a sexual affair or romantically date your wife. Plenty of women would love to have your standard of living or have your man as a dad. People need to realize THEY are really the first line of defense in their marriages. If your spouse knows you would never go anywhere because you’ve give them no reason to, you’re in good shape. If you spouse knows you would never go anywhere because you’d burn their life to the ground you have a major problem.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> Ah, now I'm with you.
> 
> Perspective is everything. I think you're applying PhD level analysis to a thought that came from admittedly simple, Neandrathalic, "Men want more sex but sure don't know how to get it!" perspective. That's the crux of the book. This ain't Tolstoy.
> 
> ...


I do have a PhD, actually :grin2:

I have seen real sexism in the UK, but it is not the sort you describe. But, the orthodox relationship narrative is as you describe. Responsibility for the marriage is on the husband. That means a lazy husband in a marriage that holds together gets the credit. 
"Oh, I am lucky, I have such a good wife" is a humble brag, as the husband gets the credit and gets to be modest with it!

In such a context, it is easy to accept that narrative of the husband as a failure. That is horrible, but just as insidious is the message that the woman is not responsible (i.e. helpless). It is this backdrop that encourages some of the red-pill and MGTOW, as they are only mainly wrong. Men will be branded failures for things out of their control. 

I live in Scandinavia, I have seen British men emerge from relationship counselling always raving about how good it is. The revelation is they are treated as equals. Their word counts equally, their opinions are equal, they are listened to equally. This is not just mouth service as in the UK, equal responsibility is how it is actually done.

The first advice from every IT servicedesk is always "have you turned it off and on again?". This reflects the reality that it will often work. If I set myself up as an IT service desk and pretty much just did that, I would have a good amount of success. I listened to a This American Life podcast, in which an Iranian emigrée to the USA actually found "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" useful as a relationship book on working on his relationship skills in the USA. Of course, it is not really a relationship book, but one that reinforces the narrative to the target reader "You are helpless, the problem is the man is just weird and rubbish. If they took all responsibility everything would be fine while you passively accept".

_"Hey... marriage isn't porn sex all the time. Sometimes somebody wants it, and the other doesn't... but you can compromise and do it anyway. Such is life." While it makes logical sense, it also lulls one or both spouses into a state of complacency. Blahness. No passion_. I find this an almost deliberately hard reading. It is taken from a post on how both partners have to make an effort. That will include the partners need for passion. It also might include a pass grope and slap in the kitchen while they are cooking. The ambers of passion having to be bellowed all day.

I agree with very much of your right. My concern is that it is a narrative that is hard to escape. The alternative is often offered by misogynistic movements. 
- MGTOW makes sense when you have all the responsibility and only half the control. The solution is not to shun relationships but might be feminism (that said, there are not enough decent people to give everyone a decent partner).

- Red pill is onto something. If you are an average man, the average woman will think you are below average and she can do better. You can be bitter, but it makes sense from a biological/cultural/historical perspective to make women cautious as they had more to lose. Would men rather their daughters were easily impressed and attracted to the men around them? (which is prudent), Acknowledge this reality, rather than dismiss it. 

- PUA is seedy, but I saw some of it in California (I know a pro, who sent people to hang out with me, oddly enough). I did not like the scene as it was close to hedonism. But, one message was relevent, concentrate on who you are and your mission and people will be attracted to you. But, understand that attraction is a lag indicator, you should concentrate on yourself first and foremost. 

We feel more sympathy for squirrels that rats. It is natural. Men are harder to feel sympathy for, than women typically. I could watch a film in which men suffer physical agony and much popcorn to it, if women or children suffer, I have to look away. This is a challenge that women face in a relationship, it is hard to feel for a man suffering. It is a challenge women will have in relationships. Furthermore, old archtypes suggest men should take it on the chin. We see "man-flu" as an act of love, for if the man really does have the same 'flu, then we are seeing him as weak. The fictional "man-flu" preserves his dignity by the use of derision. If we ignore this, we assume that women are the empathetic one in the realtionship. The danger is that a man who works harder with a lazy spouse suffers, blames himself, is blamed and starts a vicious circle. 

Unfortunately, it is only these movements that seem to speak like this to men in the USA and UK. That is a great shame. 

To try to be brief (which I have failed at), it is like an IT servicedesk, that suggests reseting, but can send the message that if that does not work, then you are a bad person. Of course, we should do the obvious first. But, we should acknowledge it is obvious and be open to the idea there might be far more to it. When going to someone who has set themselves up as an expert (as you have with, I truely believe, the very best of intent) they have a responsibility to offer that insight.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> My first hb....kids dad...was like this. Pushed until he got off with pretty much no thought to whether I either wanted it or got anything out of it (no and no).
> 
> It never felt remotely like a rape....it felt like him being a *********.
> 
> ...


This is part of the reason I reacted like I did to the "empty balls" thread. Some people think it's funny, but I think some people try to actually live like this. Like they're owed sex.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

>>> Re: "Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?!" <<<

Yes.

Think about someone you would never give a BJ to like you Dad or your son. That is how she sees you. Might be fair or unfair. But while she sees you this way, she can't bring herself to give you a BJ any more than you could work up the motivation to give your Grandfather a BJ.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> I'm trying my best to form a cogent thought from your various replies... and I'm coming up empty. Obviously you're emotional, and that's clouding your responses.
> 
> Are you saying that a man's needs supersede the feelings of unattraction and disgust that his wife may feel at that moment? She should just DO those things because... marriage? Or are you masterfully playing both sides here? I'm a dude (in case that wasn't clear), so I don't deal well with nuance. Lay it out for me, amigo.


Whose emotion is causing clouded responses? No clouded responses here. That insulting language will do nothing to teach men to be "modern". Women having a problem with your position must be "obviously" too "emotional". Instead of worrying about how "emotional" we are, why don't you defend your position. You were honest to say that you're unable to form a cogent response so just leave it at that. Don't say those who challenge you are "emotional" when you are unable to defend your position.

I'm worried less about "emotional women" clouding responses and more worried about people here posting discussion topics to sell things. Maybe your commercial agenda "clouds your responses". 

Does Vendor mean that these are sanctioned spam posts? if this site sells the rights to post spam masquerading as discussion posts, they should more clearly mark threads started to sell things as advertisements like they do in magazines and newspapers. So that nobody mistakes them for genuine posts from people just wanting to share views, seek help, or help others....with no commercial agenda.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't get it either. Its [bad] behavior but i don't see how constant requests can possibly be viewed as rape, if that is what was going on. (I'm assuming "pestered" means constant requests, but maybe something else is intended?)



Blondilocks said:


> I guess it depends on where you live. We have a member who lives in North Carolina who pestered his wife for sex and his wife made the claim that it was rape and her therapist agreed. He genuinely didn't/doesn't understand how wearing his wife down could be considered rape.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I don't get it either. Its [bad] behavior but i don't see how constant requests can possibly be viewed as rape, if that is what was going on. (I'm assuming "pestered" means constant requests, but maybe something else is intended?)


Pestered as in wanting sex and guilting her into it. He wasn't very good at the pestering, though, as she only caved every 3 or 4 months. The court decided not to indict him on rape charges.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

JustTheWife said:


> Whose emotion is causing clouded responses? No clouded responses here. That insulting language will do nothing to teach men to be "modern". Women having a problem with your position must be "obviously" too "emotional". Instead of worrying about how "emotional" we are, why don't you defend your position. You were honest to say that you're unable to form a cogent response so just leave it at that. Don't say those who challenge you are "emotional" when you are unable to defend your position.
> 
> I'm worried less about "emotional women" clouding responses and more worried about people here posting discussion topics to sell things. Maybe your commercial agenda "clouds your responses".
> 
> Does Vendor mean that these are sanctioned spam posts? if this site sells the rights to post spam masquerading as discussion posts, they should more clearly mark threads started to sell things as advertisements like they do in magazines and newspapers. So that nobody mistakes them for genuine posts from people just wanting to share views, seek help, or help others....with no commercial agenda.


Mr The Other is a male... and we're having a great and thoughtful discussion. Keep up.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I don't get it either. Its [bad] behavior but i don't see how constant requests can possibly be viewed as rape, if that is what was going on. (I'm assuming "pestered" means constant requests, but maybe something else is intended?)


I think the OP is just throwing "RAPE" around to be contentious to drive engagement on this thread to lead to selling more of his things. The main point seemed to be around men turning pathetic, unattractive, and needy and women not wanting sex with a guy like that. Rape really has nothing to do with that point and if a guy is raping someone, that's a completely different issue than being unattractive, needy and wanting sex (or asking for sex, or pestering for sex, or begging for sex). It's irresponsible and insulting to bring rape into this point since it has nothing to do with rape. Again, probably just trying to be contentious and sell books.

In a way, I fell into that trap by responding to the casual use of the word "RAPE" (in all caps as he wrote it). And then things got all twisted. I guess introducing RAPE into his little thesis about men turning unattractive worked because a lot of the discussion on this thread is about rape.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> I think the OP is just throwing "RAPE" around to be contentious to drive engagement on this thread to lead to selling more of his things. The main point seemed to be around men turning pathetic, unattractive, and needy and women not wanting sex with a guy like that. Rape really has nothing to do with that point and if a guy is raping someone, that's a completely different issue than being unattractive, needy and wanting sex (or asking for sex, or pestering for sex, or begging for sex). It's irresponsible and insulting to bring rape into this point since it has nothing to do with rape. Again, probably just trying to be contentious and sell books.
> 
> In a way, I fell into that trap by responding to the casual use of the word "RAPE" (in all caps as he wrote it). And then things got all twisted. I guess introducing RAPE into his little thesis about men turning unattractive worked because a lot of the discussion on this thread is about rape.


I have been va little on the OP (as I was too).

While, I agree with you, I think he is coming from a good place. There was a time when rape within marriage was not recognised. We are still in a place where it is very difficult to prove rape. I have declined sex with women who were keen, but either too drunk or too young to be fully aware; that is already a greay area. Then there is when you misrepresent yourself? If you claim to be someone you are not? What if (a personal example) the woman thought you were twelve years younger than you actually were?

He wants the man to take the responsibility for relationships rather than the woman. So, what he feels is the man has to avoid the grey completely, including psychological pressure. I very much think he has been extremely clumsy.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

Mr The Other said:


> I have been va little on the OP (as I was too).
> 
> While, I agree with you, I think he is coming from a good place. There was a time when rape within marriage was not recognised. We are still in a place where it is very difficult to prove rape. I have declined sex with women who were keen, but either too drunk or too young to be fully aware; that is already a greay area. Then there is when you misrepresent yourself? If you claim to be someone you are not? What if (a personal example) the woman thought you were twelve years younger than you actually were?
> 
> He wants the man to take the responsibility for relationships rather than the woman. So, what he feels is the man has to avoid the grey completely, including psychological pressure. I very much think he has been extremely clumsy.


Yes, I certainly agree with you that his writing here is "extremely clumsy" and an inability to clearly articulate a point really discredits an author and their work, even if they might be "coming from a good place" or be well intended. I might have good intentions to fix my car but I have no idea what I'm doing so I should not attempt it and certainly not try to do it as a business!

I don't think having sex with someone too drunk to consent is a gray area. I think it's rape. I have no idea about agreeing to have sex with someone that has lied to you in order to get your consent. *But neither of these examples has anything to do with the OP's point.* I really have no idea at all what he's trying to say as it's so poorly articulated. I guess it's understandable to want to generate vibrant discussions in order to sell stuff but rape should not be used to do so. It's obviously a very serious thing to experience and i'm concerned that the OP is trivializing it by linking it to a point that has nothing to do with rape.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> Yes, I certainly agree with you that his writing here is "extremely clumsy" and an inability to clearly articulate a point really discredits an author and their work, even if they might be "coming from a good place" or be well intended. I might have good intentions to fix my car but I have no idea what I'm doing so I should not attempt it and certainly not try to do it as a business!
> 
> *I don't think having sex with someone too drunk to consent is a gray area. I think it's rape. I* have no idea about agreeing to have sex with someone that has lied to you in order to get your consent. *But neither of these examples has anything to do with the OP's point.* I really have no idea at all what he's trying to say as it's so poorly articulated. I guess it's understandable to want to generate vibrant discussions in order to sell stuff but rape should not be used to do so. It's obviously a very serious thing to experience and i'm concerned that the OP is trivializing it by linking it to a point that has nothing to do with rape.


My understanding is that he sees the old fashioned tradition being that women were responsibly for relationships, so if a woman tried to divorce a drunkard abusive husband, she carried the stigma of divorce. If a woman was raped, she carried the stigma. 

From this, he has seen men (and he has the self-analysis to see he was one of them) who had a preposterous level of self-entitlement and he sees this as the major problem. This is to an extent, admirable. I also think it lacks nuance and also projects a personal experience onto all men. 

I think I may have given the impression that the example I had in mind was a woman too drunk, was that of a barely conscious woman being preyed on. It was more that a man goes to a bar, has several drinks and meets a woman who expresses an interest in sleeping with him, but she is clearly the worse for wear.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

JustTheWife said:


> I think the OP is just throwing "RAPE" around to be contentious to drive engagement on this thread to lead to selling more of his things. The main point seemed to be around men turning pathetic, unattractive, and needy and women not wanting sex with a guy like that. Rape really has nothing to do with that point and if a guy is raping someone, that's a completely different issue than being unattractive, needy and wanting sex (or asking for sex, or pestering for sex, or begging for sex). It's irresponsible and insulting to bring rape into this point since it has nothing to do with rape. Again, probably just trying to be contentious and sell books.
> 
> In a way, I fell into that trap by responding to the casual use of the word "RAPE" (in all caps as he wrote it). And then things got all twisted. I guess introducing RAPE into his little thesis about men turning unattractive worked because a lot of the discussion on this thread is about rape.


Okay... allow me to spell this out in the plainest, non-clumsy terms possible.

1. MANY MANY MANY men in the scenario I have shared have heard FROM THE MOUTH OF THEIR OWN WIVES, "It sometimes felt like rape when we had sex."

2. I have shared that sentiment with you, the dear reader.

I have a feeling you probably agreed with my post right up to the point where I say that women often claim that sex with their husbands felt like rape... the thing the women say... to their husbands... not me... the women say it... again and again.. to their husbands. Your points is, *"Well, it's not rape... and that word has god awful connotations and it shouldn't be thrown around so flippantly." *I would agree. The husbands agree. Lots of people agree. Doesn't really matter, does it? She felt so violated and so sickened by the act, she throws out the strongest word possible to push away the man she no longer feels bonded to. 

I had three clients that paid for my time to chat one-on-one last week. Two from the UK, one from Arizona. ALL THREE of them said that the wives used the R word during therapy sessions. All three (seems to be the latest trend in therapy-speak). All three women also had affairs and they were trying to push away their husbands as quickly as possible. To them, the husband was beyond disgusting and needed to go away. Knowing that their husbands loved them and felt so strongly for them, they hit them where it hurt the most. Makes sense on a very sociopathic level.

So, are you mad at them for throwing around such a word... or me for bringing it to light.... or for me posing the question of whether or not their claims have validity? A simple, "No" will suffice. 

And on that note, that will end my contributions to the discussion. Seems we're going in circles here. You may officially have the last word.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> Okay... allow me to spell this out in the plainest, non-clumsy terms possible.
> 
> 1. MANY MANY MANY men in the scenario I have shared have heard FROM THE MOUTH OF THEIR OWN WIVES, "It sometimes felt like rape when we had sex."
> 
> ...


We have a flat-Earther on this forum. I find it interesting that someone should come to that conclusion, but I am not going to call him out particularly, it is just a curiosity. 

Were he a geography teacher filling kids minds with this stuff, it would be time to step in. 

You are being held to a higher standard, both as a writer and for your understanding of relationships. This is because you are expecting to be paid for this and dealing directly with emotionally vulnerable people. As a therapist, a nuanced undestanding is pretty much essential I would suggest. As a writer, I am afraid more responsibility falls on you to be clear (I know this from working in the USA and having to use far more words to spell things out than I would in the UK).

In the UK being a relationship counseller can merely consist of saying it is all the man's fault. Just as the relationship between a child and a parent is the responsibility of the parent. It is also your responsbility to see the limitations of such a model.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Has a woman who had experienced rape told you that giving in after being asked over and over again for sex felt like rape?

I'm of course not counting situations where the woman has reason to feel that the "asking" could turn into violence - because that does qualify as rape. 

I'm also not saying that constant asking and pestering is OK, its not, its just not rape. 

Language matters because there are women who are raped by their husbands, who submit to sex because they have reason to fear violence if they do not. (or other circumstances that qualify as rape). I think its important for therapists to recognize this very critical difference. If a woman's husband keeps pestering her for sex, she needs to learn how to say no and if necessary to leave the relationship. If a woman's husband is raping her, she needs to be help to act in whatever way will provide her safety, and usually that means getting law enforcement involved 


Its like a doctor needing to recognize the difference between a migraine and a brain tumor. Its not that the migraine isn't very painful, but the treatment for the two diseases is very different. 




dadstartingover said:


> Okay... allow me to spell this out in the plainest, non-clumsy terms possible.
> 
> 1. MANY MANY MANY men in the scenario I have shared have heard FROM THE MOUTH OF THEIR OWN WIVES, "It sometimes felt like rape when we had sex."
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Has a woman who had experienced rape told you that giving in after being asked over and over again for sex felt like rape?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am struggling to see the problem with DSO's description or writing. Maybe someone can clarify it for me.

What I perceive he is communicating is that men are being told by their wives, and further reinforced by professional counselors (assumption), is that pressure is akin to rape.

I see him making more of an observation surrounding this versus actually making an assertion.

What am I missing that people are arguing about with him?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I'll answer that, given my experience with my wife being assaulted.



uhtred said:


> Has a woman who had experienced rape told you that giving in after being asked over and over again for sex felt like rape?


Yes.



> I'm of course not counting situations where the woman has reason to feel that the "asking" could turn into violence - because that does qualify as rape.


Of course.



> I'm also not saying that constant asking and pestering is OK, its not, its just not rape.


A couple things here. One, the statement was "feels like," not "is." Something can feel like other things, especially when you've experienced other things. For me, the band "Peter Bjorn and John" 'feel like the prog-band "Yes." This doesn't make them in any way related to "Yes." But man, when someone puts on PB&J I sure feel that way.



> Language matters because there are women who are raped by their husbands, who submit to sex because they have reason to fear violence if they do not. (or other circumstances that qualify as rape). I think its important for therapists to recognize this very critical difference. If a woman's husband keeps pestering her for sex, she needs to learn how to say no and if necessary to leave the relationship. If a woman's husband is raping her, she needs to be help to act in whatever way will provide her safety, and usually that means getting law enforcement involved.


Yes. However... control, power, and consent are viewed very differently, very emotionally, and very contextually if someone has been sexually assaulted - or perhaps even feel like they've edged around it. As are those around them involved in it.

For example, when my wife told me that I was exactly like the guy that assaulted her after I very gently tried to have sex with her months later, even though she was the one that kinda initiated it, I still went into the other room, cried, puked, and basically my wife did the same.

Did I try to assault her? No. Did she feel assaulted? Yes. These things can simultaneously be true.



> Its like a doctor needing to recognize the difference between a migraine and a brain tumor. Its not that the migraine isn't very painful, but the treatment for the two diseases is very different.


Sure.


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## fto0293 (Mar 21, 2018)

@Marduk Sorry you and her went through that.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

fto0293 said:


> @Marduk Sorry you and her went through that.


Thanks. It made us stronger.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> Okay... allow me to spell this out in the plainest, non-clumsy terms possible.
> 
> 1. MANY MANY MANY men in the scenario I have shared have heard FROM THE MOUTH OF THEIR OWN WIVES, "It sometimes felt like rape when we had sex."
> 
> ...


You ask, am I angry at the women for using the word "rape"? Well perhaps the use of that very strong word is related to their cheating. Most people do not forgive a woman for cheating because her husband has become unattractive or needy. But throw the R word in there and her husband starts to look like the monster who invited her running into someone else's arms. Anyway, when people are swept off their feet by someone else, their own spouse becomes increasingly less attractive to them. They want to push them away (part of your explanation for the use of the word too). So it's very likely that this is all part of the same vicious circle. A professional should recognize this as it's part of the context. If women are going into therapy or into anything planting the seed that there was rape ("felt like rape", etc), then that's atrocious if there was no rape.

for your part, you used the word as part of your cautionary tale to men about becoming unattractive and needy - essentially that when you have sex with your wife, it will feel like you're raping her. I completely agree with another poster that the expectation is that you are more responsible than throwing around crap like that as you're here as some kind of authority. It felt like you were using it to sensationalize your points. Then when challenged on it, your position changed to essentially that the men WERE (kind of) raping their wives - extreme pressure, etc. Now you're trying to say that it's more the woman's fault - brought back the cheating aspect to it and said that the word is used to push their man away in a "sociopathic" way. It's really all over the place.

Again, completely agree that you need to be responsible with your language and just repeating things that some cheating women said to get back at their husbands (the latest storyline) without putting it the right context (and changing the context multiple times) is not responsible for a professional. 

Just my opinion.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

Marduk said:


> I'll answer that, given my experience with my wife being assaulted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, I'm sorry that you have this story to tell. Part of my point with the OP is that context and clarity is important. Saying that you "feel like you've been raped" can be a strong suggestion that you may have been raped. You're absolutely right that the meaning of "feel like" doesn't mean it happened but because of the extremely strong emotive nature of the word, using it should be done with a great amount of caution, clarity, and context setting.

"feeling like you were raped" is not a good way to say that the sex was bad, disgusting, or even upsetting to you. And if in some setting like a therapy session, you need to explore feelings of rape, that should done with the right context and very delicately. You shouldn't just throw this around. Like "so how's Jess?". "She's good but she feels like her boyfriend is raping her" Huh? You're left wondering what the heck is going on.

Any more than saying that you "feel like raping" a person is a good way to say that you are attracted to them or that you want to have sex with them. Yeah you didn't say that you raped anyone or that you would rape them but it's pretty open to misunderstandings and makes you look about as good as someone responsible for making someone FEEL like they've been raped.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> You ask, am I angry at the women for using the word "rape"? Well perhaps the use of that very strong word is related to their cheating. Most people do not forgive a woman for cheating because her husband has become unattractive or needy. But throw the R word in there and her husband starts to look like the monster who invited her running into someone else's arms. Anyway, when people are swept off their feet by someone else, their own spouse becomes increasingly less attractive to them. They want to push them away (part of your explanation for the use of the word too). So it's very likely that this is all part of the same vicious circle. A professional should recognize this as it's part of the context. If women are going into therapy or into anything planting the seed that there was rape ("felt like rape", etc), then that's atrocious if there was no rape.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this NEEDS to be presented as a cautionary tale to men about the toxic combination of insecurity, neediness, and pressuring their spouse for sex. 

Given the fact that very similar circumstances initially brought me to this site in 2014, and the posters who were the most helpful provided similar advice in a similar fashion, I would absolutely advocate for such.

What I find more interesting is that you appear to have a very strong emotional reaction to his phrasing. In other words, you are overshadowing his substance by honing in on his style.

What we see consistently in this forum...over and over again...to include me when I initially arrived here...is that men frequently need 2x4's.

What better way to wake a husband the **** up then to tell him his wife may be feeling a certain way when he pressures her for sex that she doesn't want, using the words of other wives who have been in that situation?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Man, it seems the way this "rape" focus is thrown around here, any H could have his W bring up a romantic interlude anytime from years past.

It seems in a good ltr this wouldn't be the case but if a W is trying to cast aspersions during planning to leave for another man or etc, any man could be put in the cross hairs.

What a negative thought. I have no comment other than that.

Wow.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

dadstartingover said:


> I posted this on my private Facebook group for guys in Dead Bedrooms. The response was... lukewarm.
> 
> _*"I don't get it. Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?"*_
> 
> ...


I don't have any issue with this post. He has good points.

I can attest to the effectiveness of this advice because I lived it.

Mrs. C and I have had one hiccup in nearly thirty years and that was due to the influence of a couple of dried up and bitter church ladies that convinced her to try to control me with sex and cut me off a lot.

When I figured it out, I cured her of her "hiccups" with a 10 minute talk followed by her leading me to the bedroom to literally rock my world.

No problems before or since in the bedroom.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> I posted this on my private Facebook group for guys in Dead Bedrooms. The response was... lukewarm.
> 
> _*"I don't get it. Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?"*_
> 
> ...


I will tell you my background and it will not surprise you much. 

I have bene married twice. Once I got married the first time, my new wife would look for work only in a way that would not get a job, would only do house work on an emotional level (in the UK rather than the French sense), and could not be bothered with sex (aside from masterbation).

She described my fustration with this situation as close to abusive and rapey. Had I been in the UK, the relationship counsellor would no doubt have called me out on my cruel treatment of her.

She was suffering, but largely from pre-fixing every thought with "Poor me,.....". So, my being mentally an dphysically exhausted from working long hours, fixing a meal, cleaning the house and getting up early to do it again was part of her victimhood story. Poor her, for her husband was exhausted. Later it was "poor me, my husband is sexually fustrated" and "poor me, beautiful women are trying to have sex with my husband". 

This makes sense if she had no responsibility for the marriage. Like a child with an over-worked single-parent. Thank God I was in Scandinavia, where equality is a big deal. Had I been in Texas, things would have been fine too. In Denmark, the MC worked with her, but eventually encouraged me to leave. Had I been in the UK, I would be an example of an abusive husband. 

What I learnt, as many men have to learn, is that they are not responsible for their partner's happiness. My wife cannot help her feelings, I certainly cannot. I can only treat her decently and be the best man I can manage to be. You miss this.

I am happily married again. My wife (with whom I have an active sex life, and she works and cooks) happily tells people how lucky she is. I have not changed that much. 
===============================
I was in Belgium. 
The first date I had with a particular lady, I cooked an elaborate curry (British people do better curries than our continental friends). The second date I quickly put a dinner together and cleaned as I went before we went out. She was flabberghasted, It seems that in Belgium emotional labour was not a thing, it was what you actually did and actually took responsibility for that counted. Women really did more than the men, that is how sexism works there.
===============================
In the UK, when I was twenty-one, I was working in a production clean room with a very senior lady colleague who was thirty years my senior, another lady of a similar age and junior lady only a little more senior and older. There was a huge bang and all three looked at me in panic wanting to know what to do. That is how sexism works, that is how sexism works there.
===============================
In Denmark, I went out to the communal yard work. The men and women did the same work together, with jobs allocated on the basis of strength and expertise. That would not happen in the USA or most of Europe.
===============================
I suggest you are as insightful as a 1950's relationship counsellor trying to explain to the women where they are going wrong. You might be the equivalent of the 1950's woman trying to help other women, but it is stil retrograde to my experience.
===============================

Clearly a man has a duty to find his wife attractive and accept when she fails. Obviously. You think you are being progressive, but this is the equivalent of yelling at fat people that they could be decent people if only they pulled themselves together and were less disgusting.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I had not thought about pressure reminding / triggering someone about a previous rape.

I'm sorry you both went through that



Marduk said:


> I'll answer that, given my experience with my wife being assaulted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok, so I'm a little late to the party, but I'll add my $0.02 to the original question.

At least for my wife, yes, it IS that hard. She has never given me a blowjob. She never will. Had I the wherewithall to ask that question before we were married, the answer would have been the same then as it is now: the very thought of this particular sex act is nauseating. Full on racing pulse, fight-or-flight, butterflies in the stomach, cannot even imagine how anyone does it disgust.

From what I've gleaned listening to the accounts of active sex therapists, many women, particularly those of a certain age, are sufficiently socialized against (or insufficiently socialized for) this sex act that they simply cannot do it. Even though there are many things about my sex life that I would change given the opportunity, even I consider this one a bridge too far for my spouse, and I would never ask for it. 

Giving it up is a reasonable accommodation.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

"I don't get it. Is it so hard for her to just give me a blowj*b?"

To me, this is something to be thought about quietly, or maybe posted on an internet forum. This isn't something you say out loud.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Giving it up is a reasonable accommodation.


Just as not settling for less is also reasonable.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Personal said:


> Just as not settling for less is also reasonable.


Yes, but then it's not an accommodation, is it? :wink2:


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Yes, but then it's not an accommodation, is it? :wink2:


Indeed it isn't, yet I'm not that accommodating.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Personal said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > Giving it up is a reasonable accommodation.
> ...


Reasonable for some, not so much for others.

Look, in the simplest of terms it comes down to this. You cannot change, coerce, beg or force someone to do something that they do not want to do. Nor should you even try. So you have to decide if it something you can do without and stay or it's something you can't and leave. Either way, I would not judge a person for whatever they decision they make.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In the end its all about compatibility. If a couples sexual interests are not compatible, they won't be happy together. Each can stretch some but there is a limit. 

If they are not compatible, it is not anyone's fault but it may makes sense for them to separate.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> I will tell you my background and it will not surprise you much.
> 
> I have bene married twice. Once I got married the first time, my new wife would look for work only in a way that would not get a job, would only do house work on an emotional level (in the UK rather than the French sense), and could not be bothered with sex (aside from masterbation).
> 
> She described my fustration with this situation as close to abusive and rapey. Had I been in the UK, the relationship counsellor would no doubt have called me out on my cruel treatment of her.


And I would've told you to leave. Not a wife-worthy woman, by an stretch.



> What I learnt, as many men have to learn, is that they are not responsible for their partner's happiness. My wife cannot help her feelings, I certainly cannot. I can only treat her decently and be the best man I can manage to be. You miss this.


If you only heard the stories I have heard from men about how they approach the "sexy" side of their marriage, you would realize that there is so much MORE these men could've done. "I cook! I clean! I buy her gifts! I shower her with praise!" They assume that means the wife is supposed to supplicate and give them sex. Then you drill into the matter and you realize the man was X when he met his wife, slowly withered away and became Y... then wonders why the wife is not so hot and steamy anymore.

Then again there are men like you who were married to an objectively horrible wife and should've left years ago, instead of putting up with the disdain and disrespect for so long. 



> I am happily married again. My wife (with whom I have an active sex life, and she works and cooks) happily tells people how lucky she is. I have not changed that much.


Better woman. Better match. Been there, done that.



> ===============================
> I suggest you are as insightful as a 1950's relationship counsellor trying to explain to the women where they are going wrong. You might be the equivalent of the 1950's woman trying to help other women, but it is stil retrograde to my experience.
> ===============================


Fair enough. I contend that our quest for egalitarianism above all else has led to an even stronger desire for more "traditional" sexual roles (and I contend these roles permeate beyond boundaries and cultures). I tend to like high IQ, high earning, Type-A women. That's just what I'm attracted to, and vice-versa. My wife is a surgeon from Germany. Amongst her group of international doctor friends (most of whom are single... a whole discussion thread in itself), I'm known as the one husband who is open to talking about their search for men, the difficulties of dating today, etc. You know what they say? What I outline in my writing is exactly what they wish men would realize. What do they want? Everything, basically. Somebody good-looking, strong, ambitious, high-earner, kind, not such a pushover, not so needy, no so desperate, etc. They think men have lost their way in the "building attraction" methodology 

I could go on and on with the stories I have heard from these women and their search for love. They were a big influence on my writing. 



> Clearly a man has a duty to find his wife attractive and accept when she fails.


No. I don't think so. Failure is a spectrum, of course... but I can think of a hundred ways my wife can fail to the point where she is no longer attractive and no longer my wife. I'm sure she could say the same. That's good. Keeps us on our toes. 



> Obviously. You think you are being progressive


.

No. This is pretty basic, old-timey advice your grandpa shoulda told you. Nothing out there at all.

Mr. The Other, I appreciate your input... but I say this with the utmost respect: You think too damn much. This sh*t ain't difficult.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> No. This is pretty basic, old-timey advice your grandpa shoulda told you. Nothing out there at all.
> 
> Mr. The Other, I appreciate your input... but I say this with the utmost respect: You think too damn much. This sh*t ain't difficult.


Indeed, then we come back to my original post. Banal and sensationalist. You are presenting the obvious as a revelation and presenting it badly. And being condescending with it.

I understand your background to be getting married after having little luck and having thought you were doing everything right. After being cheated on, you were self-critical (as many men are) and adjusted well accordingly (far rarer).

Both sexes will play out roles, and the sensitive passive women and the confident but slobby man are very culturally appropriate roles to play. If you suggest to a couple that the woman is more empathetic and the man could smarten up a bit and romance her more, you will pretty much never get an argument. That does not make it true, it makes it comfortable. Still, it would be a reasonable surface observation, but not an insight.

But, then made the leap that as you were a wise man, and this was a revelation, that it would be a revelation generally. This is a classic error of overestimating yourself and goes your interpretation of the criticism is that we are all failing to grasp it.

Had you introduced your post in the context of offering your experience rather than wisdom, and that it was it is often the basic stuff that is wrong for many people...I am sure it would be seen as reasonable and useful. That would take a touch of humility.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I don't have any issue with this post. He has good points.
> 
> I can attest to the effectiveness of this advice because I lived it.
> 
> ...


"Don't be ****" - it is good advice, but talk about low hanging fruit.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> "Don't be ****" - it is good advice, but talk about low hanging fruit.


It is pretty amazing how simple and basic seems to work, at least on my little plot of life.:smile2:


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> It is pretty amazing how simple and basic seems to work, at least on my little plot of life.:smile2:


Or how one man says, "Well, DUH! What kind of moronic nonsense is this?!" and yet 11,000 other readers say "This is the stuff they should teach in school. Very eye-opening." Perspective is everything. I noticed a need and pattern of behavior and wrote a book about it. 

In a sense, the critic is calling all of us a bunch of cretins for seeing any of this as anything more than 1950's hyperbole. Alright... cool.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I am struggling to see the problem with DSO's description or writing. Maybe someone can clarify it for me.
> 
> What I perceive he is communicating is that men are being told by their wives, and further reinforced by professional counselors (assumption), is that pressure is akin to rape.
> 
> ...


In all my years of doing this work, I've learned that people have very deep and personal experiences about relationships that colors their perception a great deal (I'm no different). I can use the R word, for example, in what I think is a thought-provoking and obvious context... but you see what happens. I can say, "You have ultimate responsibility for your actions as a man in a relationship", and I will be either labeled a horrible misogynist or a crazy feminist. I can write a book about how men forget the work needed to maintain sexual attraction, and I'm either an uber-conservative dim-witted 1950's neanderthal, or a progressive savior that has provided them with unheard of golden nuggets of wisdom.

Sex talk is weird, dude.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

dadstartingover said:


> Or how one man says, "Well, DUH! What kind of moronic nonsense is this?!" and yet 11,000 other readers say "This is the stuff they should teach in school. Very eye-opening." Perspective is everything. I noticed a need and pattern of behavior and wrote a book about it.
> 
> In a sense, the critic is calling all of us a bunch of cretins for seeing any of this as anything more than 1950's hyperbole. Alright... cool.


Primal stuff works even if it is offensive to ideals.

I don't always get into your threads because I don't have problems with my mate wanting sex from me but I agree with a lot of your information.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Primal stuff works even if it is offensive to ideals.


Okay, that's really good. 

Thank you, my friend!


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> Or how one man says, "Well, DUH! What kind of moronic nonsense is this?!" and yet 11,000 other readers say "This is the stuff they should teach in school. Very eye-opening." Perspective is everything. I noticed a need and pattern of behavior and wrote a book about it.
> 
> In a sense, the critic is calling all of us a bunch of cretins for seeing any of this as anything more than 1950's hyperbole. Alright... cool.


Turn it off and turn it on again will often work. It does not make you an IT genius. 

The issue with relationships is when it does not work, you cause damage. 

I am giving you specific criticism along with many others.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Turn it off and turn it on again will often work. It does not make you an IT genius.
> 
> The issue with relationships is when it does not work, you cause damage.
> 
> I am giving you specific criticism along with many others.


Could you elaborate on the points in the OP that would be damaging in the situations you are referring to?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> In all my years of doing this work, I've learned that people have very deep and personal experiences about relationships that colors their perception a great deal (I'm no different). I can use the R word, for example, in what I think is a thought-provoking and obvious context... but you see what happens. I can say, "You have ultimate responsibility for your actions as a man in a relationship", and I will be either labeled a horrible misogynist or a crazy feminist. I can write a book about how men forget the work needed to maintain sexual attraction, and I'm either an uber-conservative dim-witted 1950's neanderthal, or a progressive savior that has provided them with unheard of golden nuggets of wisdom.
> 
> Sex talk is weird, dude.


"You have ultimate responsibility for your actions as a man in a relationship" - well, duh. I do not believe you will commonly be called out for that. It is a trueism. I do not believe that you get condemned for that.

But, it is not illuminating. It leads to further interpretation. You might argue that as someone publishing books and counselling couples, you should not have to think about that, but we will agree to disagree. 

How much are we responsible for our partner being motivated and happy? What are the unhealthy narratives in modern society (as opposed to forty years ago)?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Could you elaborate on the points in the OP that would be damaging in the situations you are referring to?


That a poor sex life or marriage is a failure of the man to live up to his responsibilties as a husband is the normal narrative of Facebook and general society. To hear it from a counsellor is nothing new. 

Of course, it will often be readily accepted, it is the absolute orthodoxy of UK realtionship advice. It being accepted does not make it accurate. It can mean the actual issue is missed.

In my first marriage, I would have been condemned for failing as a husband. In my second I would be lauded. The difference was not me but the wife, but in my situation five years ago, I probably would have accepted it was my failing and I should work harder. These are the times when digging is required. 

That husbands are lazy and the failure of marriage are their fault is familiar to anyone with a Facebook account.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> That a poor sex life or marriage is a failure of the man to live up to his responsibilties as a husband is the normal narrative of Facebook and general society. To hear it from a counsellor is nothing new.
> 
> Of course, it will often be readily accepted, it is the absolute orthodoxy of UK realtionship advice. It being accepted does not make it accurate. It can mean the actual issue is missed.
> 
> ...


I agree but I didn't glean that from the original OP myself.

I operate like he advised but make sure Mrs. C is doing her part as well.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr The Other said:


> That a poor sex life or marriage is a failure of the man to live up to his responsibilties as a husband is the normal narrative of Facebook and general society. To hear it from a counsellor is nothing new.
> 
> Of course, it will often be readily accepted, it is the absolute orthodoxy of UK realtionship advice. It being accepted does not make it accurate. It can mean the actual issue is missed.
> 
> ...


Which is a poor generalization because there are many examples of men being great husbands and providers yet their wives still create sex problems and do everything they can to convince the man it's still really his problem. 

Tragic, that.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> That a poor sex life or marriage is a failure of the man to live up to his responsibilties as a husband is the normal narrative of Facebook and general society. To hear it from a counsellor is nothing new.
> 
> Of course, it will often be readily accepted, it is the absolute orthodoxy of UK realtionship advice. It being accepted does not make it accurate. It can mean the actual issue is missed.
> 
> ...


It also doesn't speak to the other side of laziness - complacency in just accepting whatever it is that we're being offered by a spouse. Also missing is contextualization - accepting abuse isn't being strong, it's actually being weak.


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> That a poor sex life or marriage is a failure of the man to live up to his responsibilties as a husband is the normal narrative of Facebook and general society. To hear it from a counsellor is nothing new.
> 
> Of course, it will often be readily accepted, it is the absolute orthodoxy of UK realtionship advice. It being accepted does not make it accurate. It can mean the actual issue is missed.
> 
> ...


So personal experience IS clouding your perception of my writing... because I have quite clearly said to you that I have told men in your exact position (with wife #1) to leave and go out and find a woman who values him. In fact, that's the twist at the end of my book. It may not work... but guess what... you're now an objectively better all-around man who can very easily get the sex he needs, but just not from the wife who has obvious disdain for you. Leave. Enjoy life. 

Do you NOT agree that there are men that make mistakes in their marriage and create themselves into completely unsexy uber-Providers? Is that a concept you can't get behind? Are men infallible? Are you OWED sex? Are couples within a marriage just supposed to have sex with each other regardless of the work put in by the other? If my wife gains 200 lbs and refuses to shower... I HAVE to have sex with her... because marriage? If she treats me like garbage, I have to stick around and work on it... because I made vows to her.

Dude. No. It doesn't work that way. Never has.

Are you crossing your arms and throwing a hissy because society as a whole tends to place the blame on men for marriage failings? Who gives a sh*t? I don't. Society blames the "patriarchy" for just about everything. Let them throw their own hissy fit. I'll be busy getting laid.

I know when my first wife left for another man I was presumed by many to be a monster. I must've done SOMETHING wrong to make her leave. Yeah, I did do some things wrong. She was also a very broken woman with a lot of personal baggage. Perfect storm of issues, really. Can't point the finger at any one thing. At the very least, I overlooked red flags and let her into my world. Bad DSO. Should've shopped around more before settling down. Ultimate responsibility. Only person I can control is me. I could go on and on about what SHE should've done. I don't care. Let her deal with her.

It doesn't mean I can't learn from that experience and stop making the same mistakes in this marriage. Also doesn't mean I let my current wife walk all over me and treat me like garbage, either. I stopped pedestalizing women long ago. The most common words out of my mouth to men who tell me their dead bedroom story is: "Your wife is not marriage material. Most are not." I think where you have issues is when I say to men, "And you should've known better than to be with that woman in the first place". You don't like the finger pointed back at you.

“Responsibility is not burden, fault, praise, blame, credit, shame or guilt. In responsibility, there is no evaluation of good or bad, right or wrong… Being responsible starts with the willingness to deal with a situation from the view of life that you are the generator of what you do, what you have and what you are. That is not the truth. It is a place to stand. No one can make you responsible, nor can you impose responsibility on another. It is a grace you give yourself – an empowering context that leaves you with a say in the matter of life.” 

– Werner Erhard


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

dadstartingover said:


> So personal experience IS clouding your perception of my writing... because I have quite clearly said to you that I have told men in your exact position (with wife #1) to leave and go out and find a woman who values him. In fact, that's the twist at the end of my book. It may not work... but guess what... you're now an objectively better all-around man who can very easily get the sex he needs, but just not from the wife who has obvious disdain for you. Leave. Enjoy life.
> 
> Do you NOT agree that there are men that make mistakes in their marriage and create themselves into completely unsexy uber-Providers? Is that a concept you can't get behind? Are men infallible? Are you OWED sex? Are couples within a marriage just supposed to have sex with each other regardless of the work put in by the other? If my wife gains 200 lbs and refuses to shower... I HAVE to have sex with her... because marriage? If she treats me like garbage, I have to stick around and work on it... because I made vows to her.
> 
> ...


Your tone betrays your actual thinking here. What are you trying to achieve?


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Marduk said:


> Your tone betrays your actual thinking here. What are you trying to achieve?


Not sure what you mean.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

dadstartingover said:


> Not sure what you mean.


I sense a victim mindset coming through loud and clear here, man. You may have knocked women off their pedestal, mentally, but I wonder if you've now put yourself in their place.

This is dangerously close to red pill thinking.

I'll ask again: what are you _actually_ trying to achieve?


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Marduk said:


> I sense a victim mindset coming through loud and clear here, man. You may have knocked women off their pedestal, mentally, but I wonder if you've now put yourself in their place.
> 
> This is dangerously close to red pill thinking.
> 
> I'll ask again: what are you _actually_ trying to achieve?


LOL. Once again...I seem to be the Rorschach for your current political leanings. 

I'm not one to think that I have been dealt my hand and those are the cards I have to play. I see the truth from all different sides. I've been called Red Pill before... and feminist. Whatever. That's cool.

Want a brief synopsis?

1. Men make mistakes in marriage as far as keeping the sexual attraction going. I saw this and wrote a book about it. Lots of dudes bought it. Most liked it. Many claim it worked. Many started over with other women and used the tools in that relationship. You can read about on the facebook group.

2. Some men don't like to feel that they have to do things to keep sexual attraction going. Much like the other gentleman pointed out, many of them say that society places too much blame on men and treats women as infallible. "Oh yeah? What about HER?!" I don't care. Can't control that. Not what I'm writing about in my book. 

3. Women are not infallible. Most in the dating pool are not marriage material, just like most men are not. Marriage ain't the end game for everyone. Many men that contact me directly are at the end of their rope. After much back and forth, we both realize that he married a really broken woman. His responsibility? He picked a bad one... he always knew it. Shoulda checked out way earlier.

4. You can only be responsible for yourself. As a man, I write from a hetero man's position and can only attest to what I feel is the right path towards a fulfilling sex life. 

My end goal? Get great discussion going and sell books. So far, so good.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Which is a poor generalization because there are many examples of men being great husbands and providers yet their wives still create sex problems and do everything they can to convince the man it's still really his problem.
> 
> Tragic, that.


Indeed.

It is the disconnect. THe first part of the OP is pretty much, pull your act together because your wife does not even like you. Then, if that fails, show you do not need (and implicitly be a strong and proud failure).

WE exist in the narrative you outline in anglo-saxon culture. So, the advice is valid, but without context or understanding. We this when the OP puts the blame for being misunderstood on his readers. 

It is important to understand that you are not responsible for your wife's happiness adn nor her sex drive. You are responsible for being reasonably attractive as much as realistically possible, but not her her attraction to you. I was in the fortunate position that there were plenty of attractive women who would have liked to sleep with me during my previous marriage - very few men are in that position. 

"Happy wife, happy life" has a dangerous side. Thankfully, a woman's happiness is rarely conditional on her husband being happy and quite right too. That is the lesson for men to learn. 

The second part is almost is terms of a second wave of why he is inherently unattractive. Not begging is vital, but not in the context of it being his responsibility. The comparison is a man not willing to take a job, the response of his wife should not be to beg him to work. Instead, she should recognise that he is refusing to do a vital part of their marrage.

The red pill logic still sees women as passive and men as active. Therefore, they can be manipulated into doing what you want. It turns out that narrative will affect many women, but they are their own sentient people.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> So personal experience IS clouding your perception of my writing... because I have quite clearly said to you that I have told men in your exact position (with wife #1) to leave and go out and find a woman who values him. In fact, that's the twist at the end of my book. It may not work... but guess what... you're now an objectively better all-around man who can very easily get the sex he needs, but just not from the wife who has obvious disdain for you. Leave. Enjoy life.
> 
> Do you NOT agree that there are men that make mistakes in their marriage and create themselves into completely unsexy uber-Providers? Is that a concept you can't get behind? Are men infallible? Are you OWED sex? Are couples within a marriage just supposed to have sex with each other regardless of the work put in by the other? If my wife gains 200 lbs and refuses to shower... I HAVE to have sex with her... because marriage? If she treats me like garbage, I have to stick around and work on it... because I made vows to her.
> 
> ...


Of course, our experence colours my judgement. That is why I am open about it. I was also in a different position as I was seen as sexually desirable by some attractive women, that is not the usual experience for men.

The second paragraph and third is strawman.

The forth is an insult.

But, I very much welcome your fifth, and it is why this occasionally choppy dialogue is a pleasure! Thank you for that! We hopefully learn from experiences and often we are both inclined to hold our previous self in a little too low opinion (it is easier than thinking of the world as random and chaotic).

"Your wife is not marriage material. Most are not." - this makes some sense. Though, it does make you wonder how many men pass that hurdle. Most people manage to marry for life. Clearly a minority are suitable for any individual man


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> "Your wife is not marriage material. Most are not." - this makes some sense. Though, it does make you wonder how many men pass that hurdle. Most people manage to marry for life. Clearly a minority are suitable for any individual man


https://dadstartingover.com/real-love/


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Marduk said:


> I sense a victim mindset coming through loud and clear here, man. You may have knocked women off their pedestal, mentally, but I wonder if you've now put yourself in their place.
> 
> This is dangerously close to red pill thinking.
> 
> I'll ask again: what are you _actually_ trying to achieve?


I do not have a problem with his victim mindset. It is there, but we all have some things, as long as we are aware of them, it is not a problem.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

dadstartingover said:


> LOL. Once again...I seem to be the Rorschach for your current political leanings.
> 
> I'm not one to think that I have been dealt my hand and those are the cards I have to play. *I see the truth from all different sides.* I've been called Red Pill before... and feminist. Whatever. That's cool.


Wow, what's the view like from way up there on your pedestal?

We are trying to help you here. Which you asked us to do:



> I posted this on my private Facebook group for guys in Dead Bedrooms. The response was... lukewarm.


And


> Does she have a point?


I find it fascinating that you asked for input, and are rejecting said input while claiming that you 'see the truth from all different sides.' In other words, you are claiming to be omniscient and are hand waiving away criticisms. This is why I asked you what you are trying to achieve: is it only to hear that you are right?



> Want a brief synopsis?
> 
> 1. Men make mistakes in marriage as far as keeping the sexual attraction going. I saw this and wrote a book about it. Lots of dudes bought it. Most liked it. Many claim it worked. Many started over with other women and used the tools in that relationship. You can read about on the facebook group.


Sure. I'd say "humans make mistakes" because that's part of being human. At least that's what Star Trek tells me.



> 2. Some men don't like to feel that they have to do things to keep sexual attraction going. Much like the other gentleman pointed out, many of them say that society places too much blame on men and treats women as infallible. "Oh yeah? What about HER?!" I don't care. Can't control that. Not what I'm writing about in my book.


I would say that the exact same thing happens with the genders reversed as well. And if the genders are the same. 



> 3. Women are not infallible. Most in the dating pool are not marriage material, just like most men are not. Marriage ain't the end game for everyone. Many men that contact me directly are at the end of their rope. After much back and forth, we both realize that he married a really broken woman. His responsibility? He picked a bad one... he always knew it. Shoulda checked out way earlier.


I would encourage you to read the endless posts here about women claiming the exact same things. I'm sure there are gay people that haunt these forums and don't post with the same issues. And I know of at least one poly one. 



> 4. You can only be responsible for yourself. As a man, I write from a hetero man's position and can only attest to what I feel is the right path towards a fulfilling sex life.


Again, on your pedestal. Is your book meant to serve yourself, or all men? Or all hetero men? Or all hetero men that used to be awesome, and got lazy? Or all awesome hetero men that married broken women? What exactly is your audience here, and why? And is it really an audience of one - you?

Do you know that I spoke to Athol Kay, and he told me almost word for word the exact same thing? And do you see what the red pill has become?



> My end goal? Get great discussion going and sell books. So far, so good.


Ah, money. You're asking us how to help make you money.

Broaden your audience. Be more humble. ****can the not-so-hidden misogynistic overtones. Don't just take yourself off your own pedestal, blow the damn thing up.

If you want to get into the 'be accountable for your own life' racket, maybe start with Marcus Aurelius. Start with this bit:
"If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it."


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> I do not have a problem with his victim mindset. It is there, but we all have some things, as long as we are aware of them, it is not a problem.


I would find it difficult to read in a book or a facebook group that intends to strengthen or improve me in some fashion.

I think his intentions are basically good. I think he has some decent ideas that are reminiscent of my old ways of thinking - when I thought I was a victim of women, and society lying to me. And I thought the red pill allowed me to see reality.

And then I turned that same idea into introspection of myself and my intentions with the whole thing. Which actually wasn't good and just sheltered and reinforced my victimhood by allowing myself to feel superior. Which wasn't good. Neither was it healthy, the way I viewed women as so different than men. And although it helped me get laid, it did the opposite of making me a better human being.

So I puked it back up and started calling myself on my own bull****. Helped by some very strong willed individuals on this very forum.


----------



## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

What is this, So no BJ's for thirty five yrs. She feels it's degrading,Dirty, Stinks, I love to perform oral on Her and She will not have it, So I have gone my entire adult life with out oral sex because She doesnt want it. Is this Fair to me. I kinda feel if She doesnt want it then She should give me a Hall Pass to get a BJ else where. And we all are happy. What say You???


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Marduk said:


> I would find it difficult to read in a book or a facebook group that intends to strengthen or improve me in some fashion.
> 
> I think his intentions are basically good. I think he has some decent ideas that are reminiscent of my old ways of thinking - when I thought I was a victim of women, and society lying to me. And I thought the red pill allowed me to see reality.
> 
> ...


How in the sam hell do you read what I wrote and say that I am claiming to be a victim of women? Wow. Just... wow. 

You fell into an internet cult, and came out wiser. Awesome, how in the sam f*ck does that pertain to this conversation? How do you read what I wrote and apply it to that group? Honestly. Why do I even bother... The worst guys are the Red Pill dudes. The second worse? Former cult-members who see a potential victim everywhere they look. "Don't drink the kool-aid! It's all bad!" Dude... relax.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Mr The Other said:


> "You have ultimate responsibility for your actions as a man in a relationship" - well, duh. I do not believe you will commonly be called out for that. It is a trueism. I do not believe that you get condemned for that.


It is true because it cuts both ways. And it applies to both genders. Each person has a responsibility to bring their best self to their marriage. And each person has a responsibility to end the marriage when their best self isn't compatible with their spouse's or their own satisfaction.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

dadstartingover said:


> How in the sam hell do you read what I wrote and say that I am claiming to be a victim of women? Wow. Just... wow.
> 
> You fell into an internet cult, and came out wiser. Awesome, how in the sam f*ck does that pertain to this conversation? How do you read what I wrote and apply it to that group? Honestly. Why do I even bother... The worst guys are the Red Pill dudes. The second worse? Former cult-members who see a potential victim everywhere they look. "Don't drink the kool-aid! It's all bad!" Dude... relax.


Tell me what this means:



> Are you crossing your arms and throwing a hissy because society as a whole tends to place the blame on men for marriage failings? Who gives a sh*t? I don't. Society blames the "patriarchy" for just about everything. Let them throw their own hissy fit. I'll be busy getting laid.


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Marduk said:


> Wow, what's the view like from way up there on your pedestal?


I... what? What pedestal? I see valid points of view from all sides. That... that is normal. If that's called being "uppity", then so be it. 



> I find it fascinating that you asked for input, and are rejecting said input while claiming that you 'see the truth from all different sides.' In other words, you are claiming to be omniscient and are hand waiving away criticisms. This is why I asked you what you are trying to achieve: is it only to hear that you are right?


Isn't that called having a discussion? You have your opinions. I have mine. World goes round and round. 




> Sure. I'd say "humans make mistakes" because that's part of being human. At least that's what Star Trek tells me.


Somebody hasn't read my site. 





> I would say that the exact same thing happens with the genders reversed as well. And if the genders are the same.


Yep. Somebody hasn't read my site.



> I would encourage you to read the endless posts here about women claiming the exact same things. I'm sure there are gay people that haunt these forums and don't post with the same issues. And I know of at least one poly one.


I don't doubt it. Men can be complete and total scumbags. Again... humans. As I say... repeatedly.




> Again, on your pedestal. Is your book meant to serve yourself, or all men? Or all hetero men? Or all hetero men that used to be awesome, and got lazy? Or all awesome hetero men that married broken women? What exactly is your audience here, and why? And is it really an audience of one - you?


Again... this ain't Tolstoy. Let's not overcomplicate this. 




> Do you know that I spoke to Athol Kay, and he told me almost word for word the exact same thing? And do you see what the red pill has become?


Ok. And? You spoke to a former cult-leader and he sounded like me? Is that it? Well, I better pack it up, boys! Can't be any truth if it came out of a RED PILLERS face! I don't give a sh*t. Even Trump spews a truth every now and then. Doesn't make me a supporter or bound for the same fate.



> Ah, money. You're asking us how to help make you money.


I'm a capitalist. A vendor, actually. One who pays to be here. 



> Broaden your audience. Be more humble. ****can the not-so-hidden misogynistic overtones. Don't just take yourself off your own pedestal, blow the damn thing up.


I'm glad you have newly found your feminist side, but stop applying the jargon and nonsense where it doesn't belong. I'm no more a misogynist than you are. It could be argued that you are more so. 




> If you want to get into the 'be accountable for your own life' racket, maybe start with Marcus Aurelius. Start with this bit:
> "If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it."


Stoicism?!? You know who likes STOICISM don't you?! THE RED PILLERS!!


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Marduk said:


> Tell me what this means:


That I find talk of things like "the patriarchy" and blaming men for the ills of the Earth to be utter identity politics nonsense with no purpose other than to find a boogie man where there isn't one. The other gentleman says he grows tired of seeing how all relationship problems are creations of men. I say to that, "Who gives a sh*t what they say?" It's nonsense. I'm not aligning myself with that kind of thinking. I'm of the thought that, "I'm responsible for me and my actions... if I can do X to improve my situation, I will."

I know. Crazy talk. Red Pill. Misogyny. Me no likey girls. Incel. (insert current jargon here)


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

dadstartingover said:


> I... what? What pedestal? I see valid points of view from all sides. That... that is normal. If that's called being "uppity", then so be it...


You do not see your claims of being able to see the truth from all sides is putting yourself on a pedestal? You do not see that this is literally what omniscience means?



> Stoicism?!? You know who likes STOICISM don't you?! THE RED PILLERS!!


That was exactly my point. Do you think they understand it?


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Marduk said:


> I would find it difficult to read in a book or a facebook group that intends to strengthen or improve me in some fashion.
> 
> I think his intentions are basically good. I think he has some decent ideas that are reminiscent of my old ways of thinking - when I thought I was a victim of women, and society lying to me. And I thought the red pill allowed me to see reality.
> 
> ...


I think there is value in how to come to terms with pain more so than avoid it. Actually putting himself on a pedastal can be a good early step to bring his esteem back up after a cruel blow.

He is doing well, and has some useful input. I am critical of him only as he is putting himself on that pedastal. But, the healthy thing is it allows him to reinvent himself, now the head of a new family and the breadwinner for a new family.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> It is true because it cuts both ways. And it applies to both genders. Each person has a responsibility to bring their best self to their marriage. And each person has a responsibility to end the marriage when their best self isn't compatible with their spouse's or their own satisfaction.


Very nicely put. 

It is a vow, and certainly everything that can be done to make it work can be. But, there are limits.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Marduk said:


> You do not see your claims of being able to see the truth from all sides is putting yourself on a pedestal? You do not see that this is literally what omniscience means?


Crazy me... I was taught it made me a human being capable of thought. Empathy. I'm one of those wackos who sees truth in what you say, with the other dude says, what the Randy the Redpiller says, what Franny the Feminist says. One day maybe I'm calm down and realize the "real" truth and settle on your side. Until then, I'll leave the gates open. It's a far more interesting way of living.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

dadstartingover said:


> That I find talk of things like "the patriarchy" and blaming men for the ills of the Earth to be utter identity politics nonsense with no purpose other than to find a boogie man where there isn't one. The other gentleman says he grows tired of seeing how all relationship problems are creations of men. I say to that, "Who gives a sh*t what they say?" It's nonsense. I'm not aligning myself with that kind of thinking. I'm of the thought that, "I'm responsible for me and my actions... *if I can do X to improve my situation, I will.*"
> 
> I know. Crazy talk. Red Pill. Misogyny. Me no likey girls. Incel. (insert current jargon here)


And what I'm saying - in reference to the bolded, is that in my opinion it's time for you to check your ego at the door.

It doesn't suit you, doesn't serve you, and doesn't allow you to broaden your perspective. And I think you have more to offer than that, if you'll take the next step. You make some good points, but it is from a limited perspective. And that gets broadcasted very loudly in what you have written, at least here.

I'll go back to what @Mr The Other has said:


> "Don't be ****" - it is good advice, but talk about low hanging fruit.


What I'm trying to tell you is that this is the beginning of the journey, not the end. Yes, we men need to be reminded of this from time to time. But this is so basic and so inflexible that it really only informs the next step. And it is as much for women as it is for men. If you watch your language, if you watch your ego, and if you broaden your perspective and look into the nuances, I think you could do more. I watched good guys around me think that this step was the only step. Did it help them get laid? Yes. Did they terrify their spouses into sex sometimes? Yes. Was that good for them? I'm not so sure. 

Is being hot a good long term strategy for a longtime, fulfilled, growth-minded marriage? Well, it greases the skids on it, but you still have to roll up your sleeves and do the rest of the work.

With that, I'm out... because there's no point helping someone that thinks they have it all figured out already, and just really wants help getting people to give him money to listen to his wisdom. Which everyone here has tried to do, including me, but it doesn't seem like you actually want to hear it.


----------



## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> In all my years of doing this work, I've learned that people have very deep and personal experiences about relationships that colors their perception a great deal (I'm no different). I can use the R word, for example, in what I think is a thought-provoking and obvious context... but you see what happens. I can say, "You have ultimate responsibility for your actions as a man in a relationship", and I will be either labeled a horrible misogynist or a crazy feminist. I can write a book about how men forget the work needed to maintain sexual attraction, and I'm either an uber-conservative dim-witted 1950's neanderthal, or a progressive savior that has provided them with unheard of golden nuggets of wisdom.
> 
> Sex talk is weird, dude.


Nah...i don't think it's really that. I think that many of us just aren't really impressed with the work that you've shared here. We're not buying. If you want to post as a professional and sell all kinds of stuff here, go away and hone your craft. Refine your work. Learn some nuance. Don't start talking about things you can't defend. Develop a thesis and be consistent with it. Don't fall all apart when challenged and change your point to appease everyone.

If you're going to dramatically declare that you're done on a thread. Be done. Don't declare that and then come right back. Not good for your credibility, especially if you want to teach men to be stronger and less needy.


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

JustTheWife said:


> Nah...i don't think it's really that. I think that many of us just aren't really impressed with the work that you've shared here. We're not buying. If you want to post as a professional and sell all kinds of stuff here, go away and hone your craft. Refine your work. Learn some nuance. Don't start talking about things you can't defend. Develop a thesis and be consistent with it. Don't fall all apart when challenged and change your point to appease everyone.
> 
> If you're going to dramatically declare that you're done on a thread. Be done. Don't declare that and then come right back. Not good for your credibility, especially if you want to teach men to be stronger and less needy.


I wasn't done... I was just done with you.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> I wasn't done... I was just done with you.


You said you were done with "the discussion". The discussion includes many different people and many are very skeptical of what you're trying to pitch to us. Another example of a point very poorly articulated. If you can't be clear in something so simple as leaving a thread or refusing to discuss something with one person in the thread, then how can complex relationship nuances be grasped? We demand higher quality of people coming here and posting as professionals and trying to sell all kinds of things. You want us to buy things from you? You're really trying to get us to buy things from you?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> Nah...i don't think it's really that. I think that many of us just aren't really impressed with the work that you've shared here. We're not buying. If you want to post as a professional and sell all kinds of stuff here, go away and hone your craft. Refine your work. Learn some nuance. Don't start talking about things you can't defend. Develop a thesis and be consistent with it. Don't fall all apart when challenged and change your point to appease everyone.
> 
> If you're going to dramatically declare that you're done on a thread. Be done. Don't declare that and then come right back. Not good for your credibility, especially if you want to teach men to be stronger and less needy.


Good Lord!:laugh:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> You said you were done with "the discussion". The discussion includes many different people and many are very skeptical of what you're trying to pitch to us. Another example of a point very poorly articulated. If you can't be clear in something so simple as leaving a thread or refusing to discuss something with one person in the thread, then how can complex relationship nuances be grasped? We demand higher quality of people coming here and posting as professionals and trying to sell all kinds of things. You want us to buy things from you? You're really trying to get us to buy things from you?


I actually perceive you to be being argumentative at best here.

Try critiquing his points in the OP and proving why those points are inaccurate or wrong instead of nearly personally attacking him.

If you're not buying, stop shopping.

I don't need to buy because I've been practicing much of what he is preaching my entire adult life. It works.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> JustTheWife said:
> 
> 
> > You said you were done with "the discussion". The discussion includes many different people and many are very skeptical of what you're trying to pitch to us. Another example of a point very poorly articulated. If you can't be clear in something so simple as leaving a thread or refusing to discuss something with one person in the thread, then how can complex relationship nuances be grasped? We demand higher quality of people coming here and posting as professionals and trying to sell all kinds of things. You want us to buy things from you? You're really trying to get us to buy things from you?
> ...


It does work. Unfortunately, there seems to be an awful lot of attacks on the OP. Though this is normal in this day and age.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> It does work. Unfortunately, there seems to be an awful lot of attacks on the OP. Though this is normal in this day and age.


I'm just not getting the hostility. If they think he is wrong, prove it point by point instead of attacking.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I'm just not getting the hostility. If they think he is wrong, prove it point by point instead of attacking.


I certainly was initially more irks that necessary at first. To be fair, I did try to write it out and be reasoned, but it was treated as an attack regardless. I do believe the OP is well meaning, just less all-knowing that he believes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> I certainly was initially more irks that necessary at first. To be fair, I did try to write it out and be reasoned, but it was treated as an attack regardless. I do believe the OP is well meaning, just less all-knowing that he believes.


I actually wasn't referring to your posts for the reasons you stated.

I also don't think he comes across as all knowing but certainly somewhat educated and informed on the subject of the "Dead Bedroom".

This might be hard to comprehend but what you see very easily is not evident to many.

It took me a long time to realize that what I saw clearly was often difficult or impossible for many to see.

DSO helps the many who might not grasp some very simple and basic concepts that are, nevertheless, necessary.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I actually perceive you to be being argumentative at best here.
> 
> Try critiquing his points in the OP and proving why those points are inaccurate or wrong instead of nearly personally attacking him.
> 
> ...


You're right and I'm sorry. I did critique his points very clearly in earlier posts but at every turn his expressed point of view seemed to dramatically shift. Not a personal attack, just a critique on the responses to his challenge. Nothing personal. All in response to his words. Since it shifts so dramatically, it's just not well articulated here (again, referring to the posts here, not him personally). Maybe he's a great writer and a great therapist that's worth the money but my point was simply that I don't think that's coming across here very well and it might be worth working on things to improve.

I'm open to say that I was very put off by incorporating rape themes inappropriately but that's been discussed already so no need to rehash that. But the responses to that critique led to the point shifting all over the place to the point where I have no idea what the point is. Man needs to stay attractive and not get too needy or having sex with him will feel like rape for his wife. Then it was that the reason women are saying "rape" is because men ARE raping or nearly raping them. Then it was the woman's fault - having an affair and using the word "rape" to just push away their unattractive husbands presumably in favor of their affair partners and/or to justify their affairs.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

Mr The Other said:


> I certainly was initially more irks that necessary at first. To be fair, I did try to write it out and be reasoned, but it was treated as an attack regardless. I do believe the OP is well meaning, just less all-knowing that he believes.


Yes and when providing reasoned responses to the points we were told by the OP that we were too emotional to participate in the discussion.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> Yes and when providing reasoned responses to the points we were told by the OP that we were too emotional to participate in the discussion.


It is the nature of the internet and that his passion project that is also supporting his family will be a sensitive area. It did seem to make it difficult to accept criticism, and particuary criticism that was nuanced and hard to understand. It seems this made him personally defensive, which was unfortunate.

I do think he was far more emotional than you, which would be understandable, but is also hard to gauge over text.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> I don't think you should throw around rape (or "RAPE") so loosely. It's insulting to those who have truly experienced this. I've also had bad sex, gross sex, sex i regretted and sex where there was no attraction. But it wasn't rape and it should not be confused with rape. Unfortunately I know the difference. To say bad sex or "duty sex" or agreeing to sex when you don't feel like it or anything but rape is rape is insulting and trivializing it.
> 
> Is "feeling like RAPE" the new exaggerated way to say that you had sex that wasn't that great? Or that you have duty sex with a spouse that's less attractive to you now? Next we'll see people saying "my husband gained weight and is losing his hair. Ugghhh. He still expects me to have sex with him but it LITERALLY feels like RAPE! LOL".





JustTheWife said:


> You're right and I'm sorry. I did critique his points very clearly in earlier posts but at every turn his expressed point of view seemed to dramatically shift. Not a personal attack, just a critique on the responses to his challenge. Nothing personal. All in response to his words. Since it shifts so dramatically, it's just not well articulated here (again, referring to the posts here, not him personally). Maybe he's a great writer and a great therapist that's worth the money but my point was simply that I don't think that's coming across here very well and it might be worth working on things to improve.
> 
> I'm open to say that I was very put off by incorporating rape themes inappropriately but that's been discussed already so no need to rehash that. But the responses to that critique led to the point shifting all over the place to the point where I have no idea what the point is. Man needs to stay attractive and not get too needy or having sex with him will feel like rape for his wife. Then it was that the reason women are saying "rape" is because men ARE raping or nearly raping them. Then it was the woman's fault - having an affair and using the word "rape" to just push away their unattractive husbands presumably in favor of their affair partners and/or to justify their affairs.


Yup. I'll review his responses but your first post was extremely off and inaccurate by accusing him of throwing the term around. It was off point and combative.

He has remedied his situation and apparently helped others to do it.

I must admit to not understanding your ire. 

He also has a target audience for men in certain situations so women and men, who don't fit the parameters, aren't necessarily going to be hit square with his points.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> You actually did just throw the word around. What you are descibing is clearly rape.
> 
> We all have to make a living. It is a shame you hae to be sleazy about it.
> 
> About 10% of people are pretty horrible people, who will not respect the common decency of their culture. An old part of patriarchy was it treated women as passive property with no will nor responibility beyond their Fathers/husbad's will, rather than people. The anglo-saxon world has eliminated half of that narrative.


I see what you referenced earlier. I honestly, mostly don't read his posts because my bedroom is not in trouble.

You did start out combative.

He wasn't being sleazy at all, just referencing actual cases.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> What you originally described in the OP was a man becoming "needy", unattractive to his wife, and then begging for sex. That's not rape and it does not feel like rape to anyone who really has experienced rape. Even if it's bad, unpleasant, icky, or horrible.
> 
> Now your position has changed and you're talking about being pestered constantly and pressured hard for sex until you give in. As awful as this is, it's probably not rape either (every case is different) but you're attempting to move your point in that direction and muddy the waters.
> 
> I'm not "caught up in the definition and validity of the term". Words have meaning and anyone who writes books should take care with the words used.


He didn't move his point at all. He expanded and explained.

You continued to pursue the rape term which was off point.

You also tried to correct him by claiming anyone who writes books should take care with his words.

That was extremely off because quoting people is necessary and basic.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> And bravo for "Words have meaning and anyone who writes books should take care with the words used".


WOW!

You don't understand quotes either?

The first couple pages of this thread were laced with sheer combativeness and not based in rational arguments at all.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> Whose emotion is causing clouded responses? No clouded responses here. That insulting language will do nothing to teach men to be "modern". Women having a problem with your position must be "obviously" too "emotional". Instead of worrying about how "emotional" we are, why don't you defend your position. You were honest to say that you're unable to form a cogent response so just leave it at that. Don't say those who challenge you are "emotional" when you are unable to defend your position.
> 
> I'm worried less about "emotional women" clouding responses and more worried about people here posting discussion topics to sell things. Maybe your commercial agenda "clouds your responses".
> 
> Does Vendor mean that these are sanctioned spam posts? if this site sells the rights to post spam masquerading as discussion posts, they should more clearly mark threads started to sell things as advertisements like they do in magazines and newspapers. So that nobody mistakes them for genuine posts from people just wanting to share views, seek help, or help others....with no commercial agenda.


Off again. You go on about him posting towards emotional women when he posted towards a man.

You then expand on your flawed premise.

I don't need to review anymore of your posts.

You are not answering his points or pointing out where he is wrong.

You are all over the place and are clearly upset that he is selling something.

Back to what I originally said, if you aren't buying, stop shopping.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> He didn't move his point at all. He expanded and explain.
> 
> You continued to pursue the rape term which was off point.
> 
> ...


Commenting on the use of "rape" here was most certainly not "off point". It was the punchline to his whole post. It was in bold. The word "RAPE" was in all caps. It was a key point in his post. So commenting on a key point cannot be "off point".

Quotes and referenced information in a written work ARE words. Just because you put it in quotes does not relieve the writer from responsibility for how those words (quotes or whatever) are used.

If women are cheating on their husbands and falsely implying, suggesting or "planting the seed" that they are getting raped by their husbands, then I am beyond words. Any suggestion that this is the man's fault for being needy is insane. Perhaps I wrongly interpreted this to be part of his teaching men not to become needy. Like if a man is needy, having sex with his wife will be like rape to her. When actually, she's cheating and falsely suggesting that her husband is (or might be) a rapist. Perhaps as justification for her cheating? Perhaps to push him away (as the OP only later stated). If that was a wrong interpretation then I apologize but it goes to my point about clarity of writing. If anyone is falsely trying to plant the seed that they were or may have been raped, when they were not, then that's the main problem. Talk about needy and unattractive husbands later. Let's address someone falsely suggesting rape first.

And we've already discussed the fact that it was "feels like rape" and my response was that this is an extremely powerful statement and must be done with care to avoid ANY misunderstanding that there was rape when there was not. Like if a child said something "feels like abuse", everyone would (rightly) take that statement very, very seriously.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> Commenting on the use of "rape" here was most certainly not "off point". It was the punchline to his whole post. It was in bold. The word "RAPE" was in all caps. It was a key point in his post. So commenting on a key point cannot be "off point".
> 
> Quotes and referenced information in a written work ARE words. Just because you put it in quotes does not relieve the writer from responsibility for how those words (quotes or whatever) are used.
> 
> ...


You were off point because he was quoting actual cases.

You seem absolutely incapable of comprehending quotes and references to actual events.

You are actually trying to critic him for what the women in these cases did.

You actually agree with him because you believe those women to be in the wrong.

You are just as flabbergasted about the statement made by those women as the OP.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You were off point because he was quoting actual cases.
> 
> You seem absolutely incapable of comprehending quotes and references to actual events.
> 
> ...


You're completely missing the point.

The OP ended the post by asking "Does she have a point"

She falsely suggests that she's been raped when she hasn't. She falsely suggests that her husband is a rapist when he's not.

*NO she does not have a point* and the very question of whether someone might "have a point" when she suggests that she was raped when she wasn't can be deeply offensive to some people. It was offensive to me as someone who actually did experience this. Deeply offensive to suggest that this might be OK or that it might be justified because your husband is needy, unattractive or asks you for sex too often.

If you _suggest _that someone is the N word (you say they "seem like a N" or "act like an N") after they carelessly knock you over or worse, you don't ask the question, DO THEY HAVE A POINT? in saying that. NO, it's *never *OK to say that and you shouldn't have to ask the question for "interesting discussion". Even asking the question is deeply insulting. It is NEVER ok to suggest that you've been raped when you haven't. And again, "feels like rape" is a very strong and serious thing to associate with someone and naturally suggests rape or serious misconduct unless very carefully explained and put in context.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> WOW!
> 
> You don't understand quotes either?
> 
> The first couple pages of this thread were laced with sheer combativeness and not based in rational arguments at all.



Sex talk, dude. Gets em worked up every time. I've heard it all. It doesn't matter if my words come from a genuine and kind-hearted place... Hell, I could actually be AGREEING with a person, but their baggage is so much that it colors their judgment. They latch on to a word and just froth at the mouth. 

One guy came from a former "red pill" background. Everything is painted with that brush. Everything. You could sneeze and he would say it was a mysoginist conspiracy and people who find true love don't get sick "You know who sneezed, don't you? HITLER." Alright then. It's kinda like the kid who reads Atlas Shrugged for the first time and can't shut up about it. We get it. Now go read Kant. Chill out.

I honestly feel for JustTheWife. I can't imagine the horror of going through something like that. I would kill anyone that did that to my loved one. So I can see how seeing the word used in any context can bring up emotion like that. I'm not judging nor do I take it personally. But as a writer (and normal human) I also can't tap-dance around using negative words in any context. One could argue that makes me a poor writer... point taken. I'll keep on keepin' on. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read.

As for the other points made... I think they can be summed up as, "You think you're all that, but you're not. Work harder. " Okay. Appreciate the feedback. Now let's go have a happy weekend. I will make Christmas cookies.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> Sex talk, dude. Gets em worked up every time. I've heard it all. It doesn't matter if my words come from a genuine and kind-hearted place... Hell, I could actually be AGREEING with a person, but their baggage is so much that it colors their judgment. They latch on to a word and just froth at the mouth.
> 
> One guy came from a former "red pill" background. Everything is painted with that brush. Everything. You could sneeze and he would say it was a mysoginist conspiracy and people who find true love don't get sick "You know who sneezed, don't you? HITLER." Alright then. It's kinda like the kid who reads Atlas Shrugged for the first time and can't shut up about it. We get it. Now go read Kant. Chill out.
> 
> ...


You interpreted my last post as me having a problem with any use of the word rape?

No, my post was very clear. Frankly a writer and a therapist should be able to understand nuance in language and meaning.

My problem is that you used an example of a woman strongly suggesting that she was raped when she was not raped (just has a needy husband) and then asking "if she has a point". An insulting and disgusting "discussion point" to sell your books.

Furthermore, you're insulting me now by saying that because of what happened to me, i'm emotional and can't bear to see the word "rape". I'm not sure if you're referring to me as "having baggage" causing me to be emotional because of what happened to me and frothing at the mouth because of what happened to me. If you were, you should be ashamed of yourself for using that against me and implying that has made me incapable of having a rational point of view. Disagree with me if you want but how dare you say that because I was raped, i can't have a rational discussion and my opinion is invalid.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Trying another tack. 

There are apparently some women who believe that giving in to repeated pestering "feels like rape". I suspect that in most cases they say this because fortunately they have never been raped. Sort of like someone saying that having their teeth cleaned feels like torture because they have never been tortured.

Then there are some women who have been raped, and because of that trauma, giving in to sex because they are being pestered does feel like rape because it reminds them / triggers them on rape

Then there are cases where the "pestering" is backed by some implicit threat that does make it rape. 

In the majority of cases though I think pestering is not criminal but is bad behavior and deeply unattractive. For that majority of cases women need to learn that it is OK to turn down someone who is pestering them - but that of course there can be (completely legal) consequences like their partner deciding to end the relationship (something I feel that anyone is free to do for any reason at any time)


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Trying another tack.
> 
> There are apparently some women who believe that giving in to repeated pestering "feels like rape". I suspect that in most cases they say this because fortunately they have never been raped. Sort of like someone saying that having their teeth cleaned feels like torture because they have never been tortured.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, particularly your last paragraph.

Sure, "pestering" your spouse for sex is unattractive, but if someone only wants infrequent sex with their spouse they should realize where the pestering is coming from. Most men don't get married to have very infrequent sex with the one person in the whole world they can have sex with, without breaking marriage vows.

I do believe that if things have devolved into a pestering situation that both parties are unhappy with, just end the freaking relationship!

The man who has to pester, and the woman who feels she is such a victim of pestering----they both could decide to end the relationship. 

End note: I think it's pretty awful that women choose to stay in a relationship, and then later complain how horrible it was and liken sex with their husband to what they have likened it to. If it was THAT bad they should not have stayed in the relationship.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm extremely late to this discussion. Here are my thoughts on the OP. TLDR - Men begging for sex from their SO is a turnoff to their SO. It develops a feedback loop that over time can take the intimacy component in the relationship further into the weeds. In those circumstances where a man can regularly pressure his SO into having sex with him (verbally thru pouting, begging, gross persistence, etc) runs the risk of his SO resenting the hell out of him later. He cited examples from his dead bedroom FB group where the pressure tactics that backfired to such an extent that some of these men's SO's have cheated on them and/or had their SO's compare these successful pressure campaigns for sex to what rape may feel like. I don't believe the emphasis on certain statements were meant to be shocking to us as readers of the thread. I believe the emphasis was meant to get the attention of the guy who does use pressure tactics to cajole his wife into engaging in sex when she otherwise doesn't want to do so.

What I find surprising is that no one really honed in on the analogy he used about the wife suddenly changing into an overweight hairy girl with chronic BO. This is the part that I think is overly simplistic. It may drive the point home to the guy by trying to get him to understand that BJs may be highly disgusting to the wife - so try another approach to intimacy. IRL, I believe the loss of attraction happens overtime (barring sudden physical changes) due to a variety of circumstances that will vary somewhat from couple to couple. You generally don't go from desirable to repulsive all of a sudden - unless there is a physical issue that develops quickly or thru the husband or wife having an affair. 

And for those of you bagging on the guy because you think his opinions are simplistic and/or obvious - bear in mind that the general public usually will not have the same understanding of relationships unlike a lot of people in these forums who have been educating themselves about relationships for awhile now. JMHO.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I'm amazed that this is so complicated for people
> 
> if: "I told you no but you just kept pushing anyway!" means that he continued to have sex after she told him to stop, then that is rape.
> 
> ...


I think he said that the woman says it "feels like rape." Not that it was. But the feeling could damage her love and attraction for him.

Thinks about the following (and removing the heteronormativity):

Is it rape if:
someone you don't want sex with attacks you with brute force, despite your best fighting back.
someone you don't want sex with attacks you with brute force, but you don't fight back in order to avoid additional injury.
someone you don't want sex with holds a gun to your head, so you cooperate.
someone you don't want sex with tells you they have a gun, and you cooperate even though you don't see the gun.
someone you don't want sex with threatens to beat you, so you cooperate.
someone you don't want sex with drugs you into insensibility.
someone you don't want sex with while sober gets you drunk
someone tricks you into thinking they are your partner, so you consented.
you consented to protected sex, but someone sneakily slips off the condom.
you consented to unprotected sex, but someone lied about not having an STI.
someone you're trying to be polite to about not wanting sex with ignores/misses your hints and you freeze up in panic, which looks like cooperation.
you consented to sex with someone who was lying about not being underage.
someone you don't want sex with threatens to leave you and wreck the family, so you cooperate.
someone you don't want sex with will be emotionally abusive if you don't do it, so you cooperate.

Where should there be a line?

Welcome to the modern age, where "yes" can still mean no, and woe be to the man who can't figure it out.

Ideally, sex would always be a mutually joyful expression of partnership between people, in which everyone was fully enthused to participate and everyone knew it.

Pretty sure that's rare and precious.

This thread seems to be all about the concept of enthusiastic consent without saying it. To many of the people who want sex, the kind of consent doesn't matter, and they proceed because it isn't rape. To many of the people who provide the unenthusiastic consent, the coerced consent, the deceived consent, it could feel that way. Their partner is not considering their wishes.

The person who accepts that unenthusiastic consent does need to take a serious look at themselves, and ask what that is doing to their partner and their relationship. Too many people refuse to believe they are *******s.

I suspect that for every man saying "is it so hard for her to just give me a BJ?!" there's a woman thinking "is it so hard for him to just care about me?!"

I think new vocabulary is needed. It is mostly men who crafted laws against rape, and it was in a context where it was a forceful attack by a stranger. Now the use of the word rape has broadened, and women are becoming lawmakers (not coincidence?). But this concept of sexual activity done with reluctant consent 'feeling like rape' signals the need for new vocabulary. It might not be actual legal rape, but it is invasive and potentially traumatic and does lasting harm to a relationship. Maybe it needs its own name to give women something more accurate to call it in therapy.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> That I find talk of things like "the patriarchy" and blaming men for the ills of the Earth to be utter identity politics nonsense with no purpose other than to find a boogie man where there isn't one. The other gentleman says he grows tired of seeing how all relationship problems are creations of men. I say to that, "Who gives a sh*t what they say?" It's nonsense. I'm not aligning myself with that kind of thinking. I'm of the thought that, "I'm responsible for me and my actions... if I can do X to improve my situation, I will."
> 
> I know. Crazy talk. Red Pill. Misogyny. Me no likey girls. Incel. (insert current jargon here)


It all depends what X is, though, doesn't it? What if X is clearly something you would prefer not to do?

The title of your post would then be: "If she can give blowjobs to improve the situation, why won't she?"

That mindset leaves improving the situation up to someone else.

Especially complicated when LD people just can't comprehend the different it would make to HD people.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> It all depends what X is, though, doesn't it? What if X is clearly something you would prefer not to do?


Well, you have boundaries as a healthy human. You're free to say and do whatever you please, but you also live with the consequences. If my wife says that she just can't get turned on by a guy with tendonitis in his left foot and I need to go have it amputated... I have every right to say no. I will probably also lose a wife (and a completely psycho).



> Especially complicated when LD people just can't comprehend the different it would make to HD people.


From what I can gather, many know perfectly well how much it means to their spouse (because he won't shut up about it), but many cannot overcome their disgust or complete lack of arousal. If I had a spouse who told me that they just feel NOTHING and can't bring themselves to perform any acts of intimacy with me, I would first do what I can to fix the problem (because all I can control is me), and if that doesn't work (because the problem is on them), then I move on. Life is too short.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

This thread has gotten off on a rape tangent. As to that, I'll simply point out then when you say that A is the same as B, you are also saying that B is the same as A. In other words, if you say that a wife consenting to duty sex with her husband is "no better" than a man forcing himself on a woman, you are also saying that a man forcing himself on a woman is "no worse" than a husband enjoying duty sex with his wife. Do you really want to defend the actions of a rapist in that way? If A and B are not commensurate then you should not equate them.

As to the OP, I disagree that there's something wrong with a man saying "why can't she just have sex with me." In marriage you are agreeing to monogamy, not celibacy. Having sex once a week is no worse than doing the dishes. And I disagree that most men can make their wives sexually interested in them simply by being aloof, disinterested or unsupportive.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In my opinion in red aboe


Hopeful Cynic said:


> I think he said that the woman says it "feels like rape." Not that it was. But the feeling could damage her love and attraction for him.
> 
> Thinks about the following (and removing the heteronormativity):
> 
> ...


----------

