# Hi there, I am new here and I need your help



## Morgaine (Aug 11, 2011)

Hello, there.
First of all, thank you for having me. I am Morgaine, 37, and have been married for 3 years now, before that, living together for 2 years.

I need help on my marriage...the need to speak to someone was so huge that it eventually led me here, to you.

I am considering divorce, have been for about a year now, but I can't bring myself to actually take the step.
Here is my story from the beguinning:

I met my husband at work, on a rebound from another romantic attachment which I still remember as "The love of my life".

At first, he was funny, he cheered me up, was a good listener and he brought up my self esteem, Where I previously had none. He seemed hard working, kind, honest, loyal, gentle, and he treated me great. At one point, I thought he genuinely got me, and I actually begu having feeling for him, little by little.

Eventually we moved in together. Then the problems started: didn't care about the chores he had priorly committed to doing, started not shaving on work days, started not leaving the house when he didn't have to go to work and in these days, he would not shower or wash his teeth. At night, every time I told him to brush his teeth, I kne it would explode on me. At the same time, he became very angry, he yelled at everybody and he started to treat me really bad, shouting at me for the most stupid reasons. I felt I had a time bomb on my hands all the time, afraid to say something that would make him go off. It got to a point where he picked on other drivers and I had to call the police one time.

Then, I realized something was not right, and made him go to a psichiatrist. He went, in the middle of a fight "just to prove there is nothing wrong with me and yuo are a manipulative *****".
In the end, I was right - he was diagnosed with a desorder called obsessive personality.

I gave him an ultimatum, then. He started taking medication and he became more quiet, things got better. So, when he proposed to me, I accepted and we got married.

After the marriage, things went from bad to worse. He talks a lot, alright, but never makes due on the things he says he defends or that he commits to. Never finishes anything, he is studying and has been on the same fisrt year college ever sinve I met him, but he insists that this year is the one. If I don't call him in the morning, he wont go to work, he just sleeps the day away. same on hollydays - if I don't wake him, he just sleeps the day away. He has no social rules, for exemple, I still have to tell him to take a shower and shave and wash his teeth, with the inherent discussion that causes. I try to make him eat meals with me, as a rule, but normally he eats when he pleases, no matter if I did make him dinner before. Plus, no matter where he is, with my parents, with his, with friends, he keeps playing games on his mobile phone, like a teenager, not paying attention to the others around. If I don't think of things, so wont he. If I forget to do someting, wheather it's my responsability or his, I can be sure that thing isn't done. For exemple, he never remembers his mothers birthday to buy her a present, it's always me - well, last week he told me - the day before, when i asked him - that he didn't need my help, because i always charge for the favors I do to him. Of course I shut up, and surprise of all surprises, his mom didn't have a birthday gift after all.
The fights are about once a week. The rest of the time it's silence, because i am so tired of fighting.
I am actually quietly considering divorce for about months now. The only thing that is holding me back is the shame and the hurt I will cause to my parents, who I am very close to.
But, at the same time, how can I go on with a man that doensn't have any rules, has a problem in his head wich makes him like a time bomb, refuses to abide by the simple everyday life rules we all have to respect, like washing and eating at a proper time, and brushing his teeth and shave, a man that acts like a teenager playing mobile games while with adults, a man who has no ambition and can't even wake up in the morning if I don't call him?
Plus, he earns a lot less that i do, so I pay most expenses like rent and gas and electricity and water, plus, he drives MY CAR, because he had an accident 5 years ago and he didn't have any insurance, so now he can't pay for another car. But he still has MY CAR, lives in MY HOUSE, at MY EXPENSE.

Also, we don't have sex for about 3 months now. He trows that in my face everytime we argue, but I don't care. I simply can't stand to be with him right now. And the more he talks about sex to me, the less atracted to doing it I feel. He even called me frigid one time, which I know I am not. He seems to think he can talk to me about sex and porn like I was one of the guys. When I made him feel he can't...all hell broke loose. He even told me that I appeared to like sex in the beguinning, so I could fish him, can you believe this?


Funny thing, when we met, HE was the one who lied to me - he told me this beautiful story about his dad being a doctor and that his family lived in this huge apartment and lived well... he even lied to my parents about it. funny thing, when i found out the truth, it didn't matter to me, so i forgave him.

Problem is, not only he does noting to change his life, he talks a lot, I am doing this, I will do that, and ends up doing nothing, wheather it's turning his life around, or stop plaung games with his cell phone, or doing his part of the house chores.

Of course, children are not an option, because I am afraid to end up taking care of not one, but two children, If you know what i mean. How can this man set proper rules to a kid?

I am actually considering divorce. I am sooo tired of his. I feel that he doesn't meet the expectations of a real man when it comes to raising a kid, and he doen't want to listen, either.
What should I do? Am I being to harsh? Or is divorce the better way for both of us? I know I am not happy and I don't believe he is, either...

What can you tell me about this?
Thanks so much, sorry for the long post...


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Yes divorce is a good idea. Do not stay with this man and be miserable and do not waste your life trying to please your parents. If they love you they will come around.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Morgaine, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry you are going through such a painful time. Like you, I married a person with a personality disorder and eventually had to divorce.


Morgaine said:


> .Then, I realized something was not right, and made him go to a psichiatrist.... he was diagnosed with a desorder called obsessive personality.


Morgaine, the ten personality disorders are not separate diseases. Nobody knows whether all ten of them are caused by a single disease or can be caused by any of 30 diseases. Indeed, it remains to be proven exactly what the cause is. The ten PDs, then, are simply groups of dysfunctional symptoms that psychologists often see occurring together. To make it easier to understand the behavior, they group these symptoms, i.e., PD "traits," together. Because the psychologists created too many of these PD groups back in 1980 when releasing the diagnostic manual #4, they are reducing them from 10 to only 6 categories when the new manual (DSM5) is released in 2013. Yet, because there currently are too many categories, most people diagnosed with having a PD actually have two or three PDs, not just one.

I mention all this to you because the behavior you describe -- temper tantrums lasting several hours, inappropriate anger, verbal abuse, refusal to accept responsibility, childlike actions, black-white thinking, and Dr. Jeckle/Dr. Hyde changes -- goes well beyond the traits of Obsessive Compulsive PD. It sounds like your H has strong traits of at least one more PD. If I had to guess, I'd say the traits are closest to BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW suffers from. I therefore have several suggestions. 

First, I suggest you read my description of typical BPD traits to see if they sound familiar. Although you cannot determine whether your H has the traits at the diagnostic level -- only professionals can do that -- you nonetheless can easily spot any strong occurrences of such traits in a man you've been living with for five years. There is nothing subtle about strong traits such as temper tantrums and verbal abuse. My several posts occur in Blacksmith's thread, starting at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403.

Second, I suggest you go to a clinical psychologist -- on your own without your H -- for a visit or two to obtain a candid professional opinion of what you are dealing with. You cannot rely on what your H's psychologist told you because he is bound by professional ethics to protect his client. He therefore is not your friend. Trusting your H's therapist during the marriage is the equivalent of trusting your H's attorney during the divorce. Instead, get your own psychologist and your own attorney. I mention this because, if your H also has strong BPD traits as I suspect, it is highly unlikely his psychologist would tell him (much less you). Therapists are loath to tell a client that they have BPD traits for many reasons (e.g., the client will immediately quit therapy due to the stigma and insurance rarely covers BPD treatments).

Third, I suggest that, if your H refuses to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference -- several years of weekly sessions at the least -- you divorce him. When a man has a PD, there is serious damage to his emotional core that occurred when he was about 3 or 4. It therefore cannot be cured by swallowing a pill. The pills will only help to minimize the associated effects like anxiety and depression. The underlying PD cannot be cured. There nonetheless are wonderful programs available that teach PD sufferers how to manage their symptoms and he could make great improvements in his behavior by staying in therapy. 

If your H has only Obsessive PD, there is a good chance he will be willing to treat it. Yet, if he also has strong BPD traits, it is highly unlikely he will be agreeable to do so. This is why I am encouraging you to read about BPD traits, see a psychologist who will speak candidly to you, and establish therapy as a condition for your remaining in the marriage. Finally, I note that MC is likely to be useless until your H learns how to control his PD traits -- because his problems go far beyond a lack of communication skills. Morgaine, I wish the very best for the both of you. Take care.


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## Morgaine (Aug 11, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Yes divorce is a good idea. Do not stay with this man and be miserable and do not waste your life trying to please your parents. If they love you they will come around.


Thank you so much, Syrum.
I guess if I can't find a way to get through to him, I really have no choice. Thing is, I keep thinking it maybe be my fault I can't reach him...


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## Morgaine (Aug 11, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Morgaine, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry you are going through such a painful time. Like you, I married a person with a personality disorder and eventually had to divorce.Morgaine, the ten personality disorders are not separate diseases. Nobody knows whether all ten of them are caused by a single disease or can be caused by any of 30 diseases. Indeed, it remains to be proven exactly what the cause is. The ten PDs, then, are simply groups of dysfunctional symptoms that psychologists often see occurring together. To make it easier to understand the behavior, they group these symptoms, i.e., PD "traits," together. Because the psychologists created too many of these PD groups back in 1980 when releasing the diagnostic manual #4, they are reducing them from 10 to only 6 categories when the new manual (DSM5) is released in 2013. Yet, because there currently are too many categories, most people diagnosed with having a PD actually have two or three PDs, not just one.
> 
> I mention all this to you because the behavior you describe -- temper tantrums lasting several hours, inappropriate anger, verbal abuse, refusal to accept responsibility, childlike actions, black-white thinking, and Dr. Jeckle/Dr. Hyde changes -- goes well beyond the traits of Obsessive Compulsive PD. It sounds like your H has strong traits of at least one more PD. If I had to guess, I'd say the traits are closest to BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW suffers from. I therefore have several suggestions.
> 
> ...


Haaayy, Uptown! Thanks for the warm welcome!
Then...I am not being crazy here. Thought as much.
When I first realized something was off...i started to read a lot, and it's amazing how you have put the finger right on it - I went for Borderline as well, since he has lots of traits that suggest so. When the psichiatrist told me it was no big deal, just a personality desorder, well... bt I never quite bought it was just that. So, I am right.
And what you mention about a child's core when he was 3 or 4...yup, right on the money - his mom left his dad and returned when he was 4. After that, followed about 15 years of abuse with heavy beatings, nose and ribs broken and a lot of visits to the hospital. So, yes.
Let me read your posts, the ones you mentioned. Also, I think I am going to follow your advice and see professional help myself, but I am afraid this will end up in divorce - plus, I have ruined my chances of ever having kids, at this age, but I guess that's just life for ya, uh?
Your thoughts echo in me immensely as I read your post. Yes, YES, that's just it!
And I don't know if I can fight this anymore, I am too tired of playing mommy, and, what's worse, him fighting me every step of the way. I guess in the end I better cme tot erms with my decision, right? How does one know when it's time?
And I am soo hurt and insecure right now, that I even wonder if I actually am a manipulating *****. But why? Just because I think there should be social rules to follow?
Thanks so much for your words, Uptown - you made me realize that I am not alone on this, and probably I shouldn't fight for us anymore, and start fighting for myself, for a change... BTW, when did you realize it was THAT moment?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Morgaine, I am pleased to hear that you found the BPD-traits information useful.


Morgaine said:


> The psychiatrist told me it was no big deal, just a personality disorder...


If your H actually has full blown BPD, he is suffering from a pernicious disorder that so distorts his perception of other people that the disorder is ego-syntonic, i.e., invisible to him. For this reason, and because BPDers experience intense shame when acknowledging a flaw or mistake, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to seek therapy, much less stay with it. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a high functioning BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.

As I said, neither of us is qualified to determine whether your H's BPD traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD. Yet, because BPD traits such as verbal abuse and temper tantrums are easy to spot, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to spot strong occurrences in a man you've been living with for five years. 

Moreover, when you are deciding whether to remain married to a man, the relevant threshold test is NOT whether his BPD traits satisfy all of the diagnostic criteria for having the full blown disorder. Even when the traits fall well short of that threshold, they can easily make your life miserable and destroy a marriage. The relevant threshold test, then, is whether his BPD traits are so strong that you are unwilling to be subjected to them for the rest of your life. This is why I am encouraging you to read more about the nine BPD traits and decide for yourself how many traits you are seeing frequently at a strong level. I suspect that, if you pick up a copy of _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ (the best selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you), perhaps 80% of it will read like a biography of your H's life. 

I caution that, because the nine traits arise from basic emotional defense mechanisms, every adult in the world occassionally exhibits all nine BPD traits -- albeit at a low level if they are emotionally healthy. Splitting, for example, is something that you do many times each day (e.g., every time you daydream or are suddenly startled). At issue, then, is not whether your H has these traits. Of course he does. We ALL do. Rather, the issue -- and the relevant threshold test for you -- is whether he has most of these traits at such a strong level that your marriage is toxic to both of you.


> What you mention about a child's core when he was 3 or 4...yup, right on the money - his mom left his dad and returned when he was 4. After that, followed about 15 years of abuse with heavy beatings, nose and ribs broken and a lot of visits to the hospital.


Although no scientist has yet proven what causes strong BPD traits, psychologists generally believe that it is primarily caused by genetics that predispose a child to being overly sensitive and lacking emotional control. It is believed that, when a child inherits this genetic propensity, the risk of developing strong BPD traits is GREATLY increased by childhood abuse or abandonment (both of which your H suffered). A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 70% of the folks having a lifetime incidence of BPD (at the diagnostic level) reported having been abused or abandoned in early childhood. Yet, because 30% reported no such abuse, it appears that BPD can be caused solely by genetics alone when the genetic predisposition is strong enough.


> I am going to follow your advice and see professional help myself.


Great! Given what is at stake, it is worthwhile to get a professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. I caution that psychologists, like the members of any other profession, vary greatly in skill set and experience. I therefore suggest you obtain a recommendation from a trusted medical doctor -- or by calling the psychiatric unit of a local teaching hospital and speaking with the head nurse on duty -- or by calling the psych dept at a local hospital.

The vast majority of BPDers (i.e., those with strong BPD traits) are high functioning and are very easy to fall in love with. When they are acting good (as during the infatuation period), they will be very VERY good. Emotionally healthy partners typically will enjoy that wonderful period of passionate sex and adulation, a honeymoon that typically lasts up to six months. Then the healthy partner typically will be willing to spend up to an additional 12 months trying to reconstruct the honeymoon conditions. Because that task is impossible, the healthy person usually walks out within 18 months.

In contrast, a person who stays for 5 years (like you) or 15 years (like me) almost certainly is an "excessive caregiver" who mistakes "being desperately needed" (for what you can do) with "being loved" (for the person you already are). Indeed, because we confuse those two concepts, we have difficulty realizing that we are being loved when the person does not also desperately need us at the same time. This is the main reason we are so attracted to emotionally unstable people who -- convinced they are eternal "victims" -- are masters at projecting vulnerability ("catnip" to us). I mention this because you likely will want to spend some time with your psychiatrist discussing codependency (a term I like to avoid because it is so ill defined, being excluded from the diagnostic manual).


> And I don't know if I can fight this anymore, I am too tired of playing mommy, and, what's worse, him fighting me every step of the way.


Keep in mind, Morgaine, that the toxicity in your marriage is not something that your H is doing to you. It takes two willing people to create a toxic relationship lasting five years. The toxicity, then, is something that you BOTH are doing to each other. His contribution to the toxicity is easy to identify. Yours, however, is much harder to see because you are convinced -- as I was for 15 years -- that you are only trying to help him.

Yet, if your H has strong BPD traits, you likely have been harming him with your enabling behavior. That is, by walking on eggshells to avoid triggering his anger, you have enabled him to continue behaving like a spoiled child. By always trying to calm him down, you have reduced yourself to the role of "soothing object," thereby enabling him to avoid having to learn how to do self soothing (a skill the rest of us acquired in childhood). By always being around for him to blame for every misfortune, you enabled him to avoid confronting his dysfunctional issues -- thereby destroying his best chance for having to confront his problems and to learn how to manage them. I mention this NOT to beat up on you but, rather, to help free you from the terrible sense of obligation and guilt that has been keeping you trapped in a marriage that appears to be toxic to both of you.


> I guess in the end I better come to terms with my decision, right? How does one know when it's time?


If you are living with a BPDer as you suspect, knowing when to leave is pretty easy when you understand that you are dealing with a dysfunctional spouse whom you cannot fix or change. To protect yourself, what you must do is to establish strong personal boundaries and then promptly enforce those boundaries when they are violated. One such boundary condition, e.g., is that he must be participating in weekly therapy sessions for several years (or whatever it takes to learn to manage his emotions). If he refuses to meet that condition, you walk out and file for divorce. 

Where it gets difficult to decide what to do is when the spouse actually agrees to go to weekly therapy, as my exW did. Indeed, she went to six different psychologists in weekly sessions for 15 years, costing me more than $200,000. One problem with that, as I mentioned, is that none of the psychologists is likely to ever tell you that your spouse has strong BPD traits. Another serious problem is trying to determine whether the spouse is making any real progress. At first, you will tolerate a lack of improvement for a year or two, being convinced that he has to get worse (while stirring up painful childhood memories) before he can get better. Later, you may start imagining -- as I did -- that a little improvement is being made. After all, how could you possibly know? With emotionally unstable people, it is common for them to always being "getting better" every two weeks (while they are in a good mood). That is, they are frequently seen to be "improving" in the same way that addicted smokers are frequently seen to be "stopping smoking."


> I am soo hurt and insecure right now, that I even wonder if I actually am a manipulating *****. But why? Just because I think there should be social rules to follow?


Living with a BPDer for five years is very damaging to caregivers like us. You likely have been walking on eggshells so long -- not being your true self -- that you have forgotten who the real YOU is. Moreover, the "gaslighting" employed by BPDers to control us makes us question what reality is. This is why that, of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for making a large share of the partners and spouses feel like they are losing their minds.


> Uptown - you made me realize that I am not alone on this.


You have far more company than you realize, Morgaine. The 2008 study I mentioned above found that 6% of the population has a lifetime incidence of full blown BPD. Hence, when you add in the other folks having strong BPD traits somewhat below the diagnostic level, I would not be surprised if 9% of the population -- a greater incidence than that of left handedness -- has strong BPD traits. Because those BPDers tend to jump from one failed relationship to another, they leave a large number of partners and spouses in their wake -- a number that likely far exceeds 9% of the population. 


> probably I shouldn't fight for us anymore, and start fighting for myself, for a change... BTW, when did you realize it was THAT moment?


Because I never knew what I was dealing with, I never did make the decision to leave my exW. Excessive caregivers like me usually have never heard of BPD and therefore never are willing to end the relationship. Typically, what happens is that the BPDer abandons them after about 12 to 15 years because, as the years go by, the BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of the partner's inability to make him happy or fix him. 

In my case, my exW abandoned me. By "abandoned," I mean she waited until we had been married 10 years (so as to maximize alimony) and then had me arrested on a bogus charge (so as to get a restraining order to keep me out of my own home during the 18 months it takes in this state to get a divorce). I would like to think that, if I knew then what I know now about BPD traits, I would have had the strength to leave her. 

But none of the six psychologists would tell me about it. Instead, they used code words like "thought disorder" and listed the "diagnosis" as a disorder (e.g., PTSD and depression) that are covered by insurance (whereas BPD is not). Indeed, the last psychologist my exW went to (for five years every week) always refused to give us any diagnosis whatsoever. Whenever I asked -- and I asked many times -- she would just say "I don't find labels useful or productive." This bad experience -- plus the similar experiences of numerous other ex-partners -- is why I urge you to get your own psychologist, as well as your own attorney.


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## Morgaine (Aug 11, 2011)

Hay, Uptown...
Thank you for your kind words - you were a godsent to me and you made me realize so many things. I can never thank you enough.
After I read your post, I went and read Stop walking on eggshells and also, another book called when hope is not enough.

I was mesmerised. Both books were describing...my life!
And so, yesterday, he throwed another tantrum because I didn't close the front door the right way. So, I tried to apply what I had learned on both books. But surprise for me: He gave me a huge grin as I was talking, touched my shoulder with his hand affectionately and said - Don't be nervous, i don't want you to be nervous, just give me 15 days until I find a new house and we are history. I am telling you, my friend, in that instant, something clicked in me - I KNEW it was that time, and no matter waht, I could never fix him, ever. So, in that moment, I gave up. 
I told him, if that's what you feel, then ok, I am letting you go. Then he started to yell about the end of the relationship being all my fault, he couldn't put up with me anymore, I was the one that had an illness in my head, and he was tired of trying to fight this bad vixen. He prceeded telling he was telling his mom and dad what a ***** I was. So, I was very calm, though very shattered, I picked up the phone, told his parents the whole deal, said goodbye. Then I called my parents and my dad told me that I should come to sleep at their home for now. So I did, To avoid conflict and most of all, to avoid a conversation where he is going to manipulate me to come back, and that's for sure.

So, now, I am sleeping since yesterday at my parents, and figuring out how not to feel so broken and little, and unsure. I told everything to mom and dad and they said it was no surprise to them and that, for them, it was a relief, because they had already seen that guy wasn't very good in the head and they had always known that this marriage wasn't a project that would go very far. Talk about being on the rebound, for you, uh? Never has a good ending, as theys ay, at least for me, it hasn't.
Anyway, my friend, it''s over. I am grabbing the opportuniny to get out of hell.
Thing is, when I asked when he was leaving, he said, I will leave when I am good and ready - needless to say I will be having a real hard time throwing him out...
Your kind and reassuring words had an effect on me that I will never forget and will forever be thankfull to you.




Uptown said:


> Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a high functioning BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


You can't imagine how this makes sense to me now, that I look back. I even bet he is having a bad crisis because he stopped taking medication...





Uptown said:


> Even when the traits fall well short of that threshold, they can easily make your life miserable and destroy a marriage. The relevant threshold test, then, is whether his BPD traits are so strong that you are unwilling to be subjected to them for the rest of your life.



Yes. Again, yes. Yesterday, I got to a point where I couldn't care less about his BPD. I just had a voice inside of me telling me that I didn't qwant to subject myself to this life anymore.




Uptown said:


> In contrast, a person who stays for 5 years (like you) or 15 years (like me) almost certainly is an "excessive caregiver" who mistakes "being desperately needed" (for what you can do) with "being loved" (for the person you already are). Indeed, because we confuse those two concepts, we have difficulty realizing that we are being loved when the person does not also desperately need us at the same time. This is the main reason we are so attracted to emotionally unstable people who -- convinced they are eternal "victims" -- are masters at projecting vulnerability ("catnip" to us). I mention this because you likely will want to spend some time with your psychiatrist discussing codependency (a term I like to avoid because it is so ill defined, being excluded from the diagnostic manual)


Uptown, my friend, this right there hit me like a ton of bricks.
Yes, I definitely am an excessive caregiverr. Through out my life, every single person I fell inlove with had problems of some kind. Even the person I fell inlove the most until today has a problem of lack of emotion, so I conitnued to give, and give and give, until I didn't have more in me to give. I guess that makes us a really easy prey, uh?
It's like, the more you are rejected by someone, the more likely you are of falling in love.

After I read your wise words, I am seriously considering going to a psichiatrist - not because of H. anymore, but because of me - seems I may have issues that have to be resolved, so I don't let toxic people apprach me anymore.I




Uptown said:


> If you are living with a BPDer as you suspect, knowing when to leave is pretty easy when you understand that you are dealing with a dysfunctional spouse whom you cannot fix or change.


Yes, it is. So true. I felt it yesterady, I just KNEW it was time to leave running. Didn't care about what others would say, didn't pity H. because of his mental illness, didn't care about anythong but this little voice in my core saying - there is nothing you can do - leave. now. run and don't look back.





Uptown said:


> Living with a BPDer for five years is very damaging to caregivers like us. You likely have been walking on eggshells so long -- not being your true self -- that you have forgotten who the real YOU is. Moreover, the "gaslighting" employed by BPDers to control us makes us question what reality is. This is why that, of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for making a large share of the partners and spouses feel like they are losing their minds.


Wel, that really worked for H.! I feel a shadow of what I once was. I don't know me anymore, i feel i am this fragile, awfull, little person that nobody cares about. I feel that at 37, my life is over, because I blew my chance of ever having kids, and I am trying to fight the felling that there will never be anyone else. Then I tell myself, I have a good job, I have a nice house, parents that love me, I am a normally intelligent and lovable person and things will get better. But then, why do I feel all these things, like my life is over? is it normal? I am so afraid that when my parents die, I will have no one and be all alone...this is crushing me inside, even as I write.
How can I start all over again? right now, it seems an impossible task, Uptown!
Plus, I do believe the worst is yet to come. If I read the books correctly, they have a kind of dialetic where they both hate the person and cant live without the non. That is why I think I will have trouble getting him to leave my house, so I can move back in again. (yes, that's right, it's my house, but I was the one who left, because he wouldn't) I am not sleeping there another night until he leaves, I just don't have the strenght for it anymore.

Thnk you so much for your kind words, they have helped me so much. Can I please talk to you again? you know how it goes, because you have been there before. I am just so lost right now...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Morgaine said:


> Then he started to yell about the end of the relationship being all my fault, he couldn't put up with me anymore, I was the one that had an illness in my head, and he was tired of trying to fight this bad vixen.


Those false accusations are called "projection," which is one of the primitive ego defense mechanisms we all start using in childhood. It works so beautifully as an emotional defense because it works at the subconscious level, hidden away from our conscious mind. This is why your H likely consciously believes the outrageous, nonsensical things coming out of his mouth at the time he is saying them. And this is why you will often see a BPDer, in trying to justify or support the irrational statements he is making, say such absurd things that you will be amazed any adult can say such a thing and also hold a straight face (instead of laughing).

Like the other BPD traits, projection is something we all use occasionally -- but only infrequently if we are emotionally healthy. BPDers use it frequently -- together with other primitive ego defenses like denial and black-white thinking -- because their emotional development never grew beyond the level of a four year old. They therefore never learned the more mature and sophisticated ways to control and calm their egos, e.g., self-soothing, distraction, tolerance of ambiguities, and greater reliance on adult logic.

I mention this so you realize that, if you tell your H is likely suffers from strong BPD traits, he almost certainly will project it right back onto you, believing that YOU are the one having such traits. Indeed, he has already told you that you are the one with the mental illness in the head. So the universal advice at all the BPD websites targeted to "Nons" is to leave it to the psychologist to tell the BPDer. And, as I explained, it is very unlikely that even the psych will tell them either. 

That said, I nonetheless am such an excessive caregiver that there is no way I would leave my exW and leave any stone unturned. I wanted to make every effort to help her. So, knowing full well that she would not believe me, I told her she had strong BPD traits. And I left a book behind that is targeted to BPDers. Of course, she immediately accused me of being the BPDer.


> He proceeded telling he was telling his mom and dad what a ***** I was. So, I was very calm, though very shattered, I picked up the phone, told his parents the whole deal, said goodbye.


Don't be surprised if one or both of the parents believe him. It is believed that the predisposition for developing strong BPD traits is inherited from one parent. Hence, most BPDers are raised in dysfunctional families and 70% of them report having been abused or abandoned in childhood. Yet, because 30% report no such abuse, it is believed that the genetic predisposition by itself can be so strong that many children still develop BPD even when raised by loving, nurturing parents.


> I will be having a real hard time throwing him out...


No, having a "real hard time" is when your spouse has you arrested on a bogus charge and, because it is early on a Saturday morning, you have to lie on a bare metal "bed" for nearly three days until you can go before the judge to tell your side of the story. That's what happened to me. My exW did that so, while I was in jail, she could easily obtain a restraining order barring me from coming near my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce here). And, as with you, I was the one who owned the home.

Of course, there are hundreds of millions of folks out there who are convinced that you and I BOTH got off lucky. They left their BPDer relationships with broken limbs and bruises because their BPDer spouses became physically violent. And some of them were killed. I mention this because -- although you have plenty of reasons to feel miserable right now -- it can help some to put it all in perspective.


> You can't imagine how this makes sense to me now, that I look back. I even bet he is having a bad crisis because he stopped taking medication...


If he has strong BPD traits as you believe, your marriage almost certainly would have ended the same way even if he had stayed on his meds. As I mentioned, BPD cannot be controlled with meds because it is a thought distortion and he has the emotional development of a four year old. At best, the meds would have helped him reduce his anxiety level or moderate any depression he has. Moreover, to the extent he has obsessive-compulsive issues, meds can help but only to a very limited degree.


> I got to a point where I couldn't care less about his BPD. I just had a voice inside of me telling me that I didn't want to subject myself to this life anymore.


I am so proud of you. You should feel proud too. What you managed to accomplish -- which I never did while I was married -- was to raise your personal boundaries to a strong healthy level and then actually ENFORCE them. I applaud your achievement, Morgaine! 

Because you cannot fix your H, the BPD information mainly serves two purposes. First, that knowledge makes it much easier for you to leave him by clearing away the fog of "gaslighting" that confused you -- and by releasing you from the oppressive feeling of obligation and guilt which keeps us caregivers trapped in toxic marriages (it is anathema for us to even think of walking away from a sick loved one -- even when that is exactly what we should do). Second, that knowledge casts a bright light on your own excessive caregiver issues, allowing you to see that -- without a change in your attitude -- you likely will run right into the arms of another man just like the one you are leaving.


> Yes, I definitely am an excessive caregiver. Through out my life, every single person I fell in love with had problems of some kind. ... I guess that makes us a really easy prey, uh?


No, no, no. We are not prey. We are not victims. As I said, we are the strong ones. Being emotionally stable, we are the "glue" that holds the relationships together with unstable partners. Because you were the strong, stable one, you had the power -- all along -- to end the relationship at any time. This is why I said that the toxic relationship is not something your H was doing to you. Rather, it was something you BOTH were doing to each other.

Moreover, you don't have to worry about any BPDers coming to hunt you down as prey. They do not need to do that. We caregivers go hunting for them. And, if we don't find enough of them in our own country, we will jump on a plane and go hunting in a third world country. After all, we are "fixers" only as long as we have someone to fix.

What the BPDers do -- always believing they are victims -- is to continually project vulnerability. Like flowers, they attract bees, most of which are emotionally healthy people. But those folks typically leave within 18 months, as I explained. Hence, when those healthy people run screaming from the BPDers, we are the ones running in the opposite direction because we are so strongly attracted to vulnerability. (Actually, everyone is to some degree, which is why BPDers -- who typically are masters at both acting and projecting vulnerability -- sometimes become great movie stars -- it can be easy to fall in love with BPDers even when they are just images on a movie screen.)


> It's like, the more you are rejected by someone, the more likely you are of falling in love.


To some degree, we all tend to find people and things most attractive when we cannot have them. For us caregivers, however, that plays a very minor role, if any at all. As I noted above, we are drawn not to rejection but, rather, to vulnerability -- because it is so important to us to be needed. We want to transform someone's life by saving them. Given that lofty goal, we will persist regardless of whether we are initially rejected or not.


> am seriously considering going to a psychiatrist - not because of H. anymore, but because of me - seems I may have issues that have to be resolved, so I don't let toxic people approach me anymore.


Again, I don't believe you need to fear being approached by emotionally unstable people. If you are like me, your greatest concern should be your lack of interest in stable, emotionally-available people. They will come off as being BORING because the don't desperately need you, which means you will have trouble feeling loved even when they do love you. It means you will have less a sense of accomplishment because you are not "saving" them from anything. It means you will not experience the extreme, unbridled, sexual passion and romance that unstable folks are so good at while they are splitting you white. And it means you will have to settle for a relationship that builds slowly, not one that comes on like gang busters.


> I feel a shadow of what I once was. I don't know me anymore, i feel i am this fragile, awful, little person that nobody cares about.


Silly woman! You are feeling miserable and depressed, yes. But there is nothing _fragile_ about you at all. Extreme caregivers like you and me are extremely strong individuals. That is one reason I hate using the term "codependent" to describe us. Most "codependents" I've met are fiercely independent in nearly all respects. Many of them will be working a full time job and be going home to take care of two kids and three dogs -- and still find time on the weekends to go out looking for a spouse to take care of too. So, again, there is nothing "fragile" about you.

We are "dependent" only in the sense that we fully rely on our ability to help others as a way of building up our self esteem. That is, we tend to feel worthless if we are not helping someone. And, of course, we feel devastated -- like total failures -- when our 5-year effort (e.g., you) or 15-year effort (e.g., me) to "save" someone proves unsuccessful.

In that limited sense, we are fully "dependent" on those other people for feeling good about ourselves. And we are inclined to sacrifice ourselves by continuing to help others even when it is to our great detriment to do so. Of course, this willingness to sacrifice ourselves is exactly what our churches and society tell us we should be doing. Indeed, our churches usually tell us that it is the only path to heaven. There therefore is wide disagreement among psychologists as to whether "codependency" constitutes a mental disorder -- and this is why it was excluded from the diagnostic manual in 1980 and will remain excluded when DSM5 is released in 2013.

Our problem as excessive caregivers, then, is not being frail but, rather, failing to take care of _ourselves_ in the process. We are too focused on building up our egos by helping others. Moreover, as I mentioned above, we confuse "being needed" for "being loved." The best explanation of this that I've found is an article by Shari Schreiber at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Another excellent article by her is at AT ANY COST: Saving your Life after Loving a Borderline..


> I feel that at 37, my life is over, because I blew my chance of ever having kids, and I am trying to fight the felling that there will never be anyone else.... But then, why do I feel all these things, like my life is over? is it normal?


Yes, that is normal. That is exactly how you should feel when walking out of a BPDer relationship. Indeed, a large share of partners and spouses feel like they are going crazy. As I said earlier, BPD is the only PD that is notorious for making the partners feel like they are losing their minds. Living with someone who alternately adores and hates you is a very disorienting experience, particularly for us caregivers who refuse to walk away from it early on like the healthier folks do.


> I do believe the worst is yet to come. If I read the books correctly, they have a kind of dialectic where they both hate the person and cant live without the non.


I disagree. IME, the very worst was the lengthy period of confusion, a period in which you were blamed for every misfortune. Part of the confusion was our mistaken belief that, if we could only figure out what we were doing wrong, we could return our marriages to the blissful state we experienced during the honeymoon period. 

Granted, the divorce likely will be difficult because your H will split you black, believing you are a terrible person. He therefore likely will be very verbally abusive and vindictive. This is why it is important for you to stay away from him and contact him through your lawyer. If he is willing to do a settlement through mediation, that would be best.

As to the "dialetic where they both hate the person and can't live without the non," that just means a BPDer has strong mixed feelings. But that is true for all of us. A BPDer's problem is not having strong mixed feelings but, rather, only being able to tolerate being in touch with one set of feelings at a time. This is why you H likely flips in ten seconds from adoring you to devaluing you. But, yes, you must be on your guard not to be sucked back into the relationship when he starts splitting you white again. And, yes, that is a very good reason for you to stay away from your home until the divorce is finalized.


> you made me realize that I am not alone on this.


As I noted earlier, numerous other spouses and partners are going through the same painful process of having to leave a BPDer. You may want to read about Berilo's experience with his W at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/29373-distressed-3.html#post391827; Blacksmith's experience at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/27516-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403; or GTRR's experience at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. 

For advice, I suggest you supplement the support we give you here at TAM with that offered at BPDfamily.com, which is the largest BPD forum targeted solely to spouses and partners like you. It has eight message boards, one of which is "Leaving a BPDer." There you will find support from dozens of folks who have recently gone through -- or are still going through -- a painful divorce from a BPDer spouse. They can give you many helpful tips. At that same site, there is an excellent article about leaving a BPDer at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. The dozen other articles at that site are good too. If you have any questions, I will be glad to try to answer them or point you to an online article that can. Meanwhile, Caregiver, please start taking better care of _yourself _for a change.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Morgaine said:


> Hay, Uptown...
> Thank you for your kind words - you were a godsent to me and you made me realize so many things. I can never thank you enough.
> After I read your post, I went and read Stop walking on eggshells and also, another book called when hope is not enough.
> 
> ...


Just to touch on a small portion of your thread, I am a 42 year old mom sitting in a chair breastfeeding my 8 month old healthy perfect son. I'm watching my 3 year old healthy perfect pre-schooler play. That dream doesn't have to be over. 
I'm sorry for the rest of everything, but extremely proud of you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Morgaine said:


> I feel that at 37, my life is over, because I blew my chance of ever having kids, and I am trying to fight the felling that there will never be anyone else. Then I tell myself, I have a good job, I have a nice house, parents that love me, I am a normally intelligent and lovable person and things will get better. But then, why do I feel all these things, like my life is over? is it normal? I am so afraid that when my parents die, I will have no one and be all alone...this is crushing me inside, even as I write.
> How can I start all over again? right now, it seems an impossible task, Uptown!


Morgaine,

I am probably one of the last persons on this board to recommend divorce, but for you, the faster you get out and get on with your life and your dreams, the better off you will be.

Shout out Uptown, you were the one and only person (including our two current counselors) that correlated my wife's black out rages to BPD. Doing some additional research, I found another correlation with her having a debilitating illness with no organic cause in the late 90's. She had seen numerous doctors, medical and clinical psych, and not one of them matched this up.

So I'm married over 10 years with three beautiful loving children who have a verbally/emotionally abusive mom who has taken her abusive threats of leaving to a new high after my mom passed 6 months ago. She wants to move out, she wants a divorce, she can't say a complete sentence to me without being sarcastic or belligerent. My sister paid for a vacation house for next week and she refuses to go, leaving me to take our three small kids by myself. Today, after I come back from jogging while the kids ride their bikes, she rushes out of the house to meet somebody that she won't tell us who they are, then she comes back 2 hours late leaving everyone stuck for lunch because we're expecting her back. The kids are finally getting old enough to get pissed about this and they didn't like it at all. Believe me, you don't want to live like this. 

Find yourself a new guy asap, preferably someone big and protective. Move out, move in with the new guy, make what you want happen and clean up after the old guy later. Lots of people are starting families later in life and you can be one of them, but you don't have a minute to waste.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

TenYear, thanks so much for the kind words about me. And thanks for sharing your painful marital experiences with Morgaine and giving her sage advice. It is important that she knows there are a lot of us who have gone much further down the path she was on -- and we found out it does not end well. 

It's been four months since you and I conversed last, here on the forum. I'm glad to hear that you and your kids are still doing reasonably well despite your W's ongoing illness. I realize that you are taking things week by week, choosing to stay in the marriage as long as it is in the best interests of your children. As best as I can tell, you are a wonderful, nurturing father.


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## Avalon (Jul 5, 2011)

Just want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this conversation about personality disorders, it's made me do some research and look into why my husband is the way he is (totally apathetic about everything). Though it isn't BDP like you've been discussing, my husband meets 4 and possibly 5 of the criteria for schizoid personality disorder, not depression like some have thought.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks again for this wonderful discussion, it's opened up some ideas for me to look at and helped me figure a few things out. Just a little side tangent there..., but a very helpful one for me.


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