# Seeking Honest Advice for a Soul in a Pickle



## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Hello everyone,

I'm 43, and have been married for over 13 years. We have 3 beautiful children together (all girls). My wife and I met in high school, and have only dated a handful of people prior to marriage. As boyfriend and girlfriend, we both got along well. Although there was nothing earth-shattering with our relationship, we always assumed marriage would be in our future.

After 10 years being BF/GF (2 years living together), I finally popped the question and we decided to marry. Over the years, things seemed fine on the surface but I felt an emotional void missing in our relationship. Sure, we had sex reasonably frequently (3x-4x a week as BF/GF, 1x-2x a week as hubby & wife). We don't argue much. Yet there was something invisible and profoundly missing. At first I couldn't put my finger on it, but have stayed awake many times wondering if this was all there was to a marriage. I could best describe my life as being in what's called a "semi-happy" marriage... where life is content and peaceful, but nothing extraordinary (with the exception of our beautiful and happy children).

Four years ago, I developed an intense friendship with a coworker under my radar. I have always prided myself on my integrity and even approached her with some concerns things might be getting too close between us. Although I said this out loud, I felt a very strong attraction for her. I liked her very much as a dear friend and learned she also was developing strong feelings for me. We continued to go out on lunches and our conversations flowed and flowed. It didn't take long for us to discover an amazing chemistry we both share. Soon after, we both fell completely head over heels in love with each other.

Before the "judgmental hat" gets put on, let me say (again) that I have always prided myself on integrity. I hate liars and cheaters. My father had an affair that hurt both my mother and myself, and this was something I never completely forgiven (but now have a greater understanding). Yet, here I am today with what seems like me falling right in my father's footsteps.

I'm *NOT* a naive love-sick teenager. As a 40+ year old adult, I grew to become a rational and critical thinker. I know the difference between right & wrong. But while my actions are controllable, my emotions have a heartbeat to their own. I not only fell in love with this other woman, but *very deeply* so. We both knew what we were doing was wrong and unfair to our spouses (she is married too). Yet above all of this, what soon developed was nothing short of extraordinary outside the negative cloud of shame and guilt.

There is such intensity in the love we feel, along with a degree of familiarity and comfort. It feels like we have loved each other our whole lives! My life before feels like a blur compared to the significance I feel now. It's almost like I have been "lost" my entire life... and finally after 40+ years... have finally found home. I never experienced this level of comfort and warmth just from being in someone's arms before (including my wife - even as BF/GF). It's the most amazing thing I have ever felt, complete with butterflies in my chest.

I can say this woman (of 4 years) actually knows me a tad better than my wife (of 13/23 years). And vice-versa. We complete each other's thoughts and sentences. If either of us are having a bad day, our spouses are clueless yet both of us are completely dialed in. She brings out the best in me. I feel inspired, and have never felt so cherished and adored. Simply put, this woman totally "gets me" in every aspect imaginable. We have been deeply in love for over 4 years now, and the butterflies STILL remain. The intensity STILL remains. The love is still just as strong as it was in the beginning. We are not only the best of lovers, but also the very best of friends. We greatly enjoy just being together. Our conversations have such playful banter with witty humor that make us both laugh. The time flies by so quickly.

Here lies some of the problems (which I'm sure are just a handful of many)...

For one, I'm terrified of divorce! I have gone through hell as a child watching my mother cry in nervous breakdowns over what my father did. Most of the things I read support that divorce is very hard on children. My wife and I may have our rare fights and rough patches, but for the most part we get along fairly well. I can't really say there is anything wrong with my wife. She is a good person. Our relationship might even be considered in the top 50% of most marriages (just guessing). In my point of view, our marriage is best described as "SEMI-HAPPY". While peaceful and content, we never truly had a DEEP CONNECTION either. This may be a by-product from initially dating at a very young and immature age.

Secondly, I'm concerned how unfair this cheating has been to our spouses. It doesn't feel right to trade a relatively decent marriage for better one... as if I'm trading my wife like a used car. At the same time, there is NO DOUBT I have discovered *the love of my life*! The old saying is so true... when you "know", you just KNOW. She really is "THE ONE" in a million, and I firmly believe she feels/felt the same way towards me (more on the "felt" part below). I know it sounds so stereotypical-crazy, but when you truly meet the love of your life there is little doubt.

Thirdly, statistics show 2nd marriages have a greater chance at failure. I also read less than 5% of relationships born from affairs succeed. Other comments have asked: "How do you know she just won't cheat on you like she did her husband (or vice-versa)?" Well... not to be redundant but... when you "know" you know. Neither of us are are concerned about this. We had conversations about the grave importance of not disrupting innocent families... ruining one marriage if that is simply the path that would be repeated again. We both would only go into this with appreciation how difficult the journey would be with a common goal of having long-term success.

We also both realize the grass is NOT greener on the other side. We know this relationship would have its share of struggles and problems. We are not falsely disillusioned into sensual bliss. But our connection... absolutely... *IS* sensual bliss. So many times we touch our foreheads together and get totally lost into the gaze of each other's eyes... as if piercing into our very souls. Several minutes fly by thats seem like seconds. If our relationship wasn't so secretive, I imagine other people might envy the natural... relaxed... yet how strong & deep our love is for each other. I am in so much awe over this woman. She is the love of my life!

More hurdles...

I'm afraid I may not be capable of divorce. I'm terrified of the negative impact it will have on my wife & children, as well as the potential displacement of either my wife or her husband. It is likely that neither side would be able to afford to continue living in their homes. Last year I filed divorce papers but could not follow through. I'm very afraid of the hurt this will cause. My wife doesn't know about this affair. Her children are all adults, but one is extremely judgmental and may never forgive the mother for leaving. My children are still relatively young. The oldest is emotionally sensitive, but would hopefully overcome the hurt with time. The negative financial toll would likely result in less opportunity for my children to go through college (her kids have already finished).

This woman was under the impression I was prepared to leave my wife... yet when I do a sincere attempt and hit a "wall" I start to panic and crumble. I've gone through these motions not only once, but TWICE with no success. So in essence I feel trapped in a semi-happy marriage due to today's troubling financial times and the fact children are involved. My heart and mind both tell me that if children were not involved this woman and I would have been together 4 years ago. As unfair it is to disrupt innocent people's lives (kids & spouses), it's equally unfair to hurt the feelings of the one person you care and love the most. I don't hate or dislike my wife. I do care about her. She tries hard, and is a good faithful mother. She's loyal and a dear friend. We just never had the "it" factor. No spark. Having sex is NOT the same as having a spark. I just realized several years too late that I probably have married the wrong person. I'm also very confident that my feelings for this other person are not dillusional simply because it's a new relationship. While the newness is thrilling & exciting what makes my relationship with this other person so special is the rare intimate DEEP CONNECTION we both feel. It's been over 4 years and I still have butterflies & tingles. My heart still melts like the time I first heard her say she loved me.

Thanks in advance,
"Richard Collier"


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If your looking for advice on how to ditch you vows, wife and children so you can continue your cheating, I can't help you.

You made a selfish choice way back when you chose to continue with ths woman and to become a cheat.

And the fact that you both continue to feel the same spark after cheating for four years doesn't prove it's love. It just proves you get off on cheating.

Cheatings fun, it's all about you and the AP, it's not about responsibility, sick kids, or real life.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Cake-eating 101.

I have nothing positive to say to you, so I'm just not going to say anything at all.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Dude leave the GF or D the wife, your screwing with both these chicks and you can't man up and make a choice.

Sure its hard but except the consequences, but your big boy pants on and make a choice.

BTW what did you think was going to happen anyway. You dug your self into a hole and now wine about it. 

Make a choice, and if you really want to be happy then try being happy with your self ...alone and then see what happen. I have a feeling you will see that this fantasy you are in is not real. your wife is ...if she keeps you after you tell her... which I doubt.

What you are doing has consequences so start to except them!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

If you claim that the love you have for this woman is true and intensive then it should be strong enough to help you go through a divorce.
If this is your true love then it's something worth fighting for. But you can't fight for it while treating it as an affair. You're giving it a cheap price and on the other hand you're hurting your family. 

Be a man and give your marriage an end out of respect for your wife and kids.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

So do your W a favor- divorce her and let her find a MAN who will love and respect her. A MAN who will honor his vows to her. A MAN who will put her first. A MAN who will not choose the easy way out. OR better yet Tell your wife about your affair and let her choose if she wants to stay with you after 4YEARS of cheating on her.... bet youre on the street before daybreak tomorrow. Then the two of you can be together- sounds like you deserve one another.

Good luck.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> We also both realize the grass is NOT greener on the other side. We know this relationship would have its share of struggles and problems.


That is the understatement of the century. Not only will you have to deal with normal relationship struggles, I will bet money that you either get caught before you D, or your wife catches on and then you can deal with the fallout from your own children. And the "love of your life" is going to be the woman who broke up their family. Just as you will be to her family if she has any children. What do you do when your kids refuse to spend any time with you if the OW is there? Vice versa? 

All the energy you should be putting into your marriage is spent on a woman who is married to someone else. Of course your marriage feels empty, you aren't IN it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

So that's what it's like to be in affair land, it's all lollipops and rainbows. 

The OW is so in tune and it's heavenly bliss. Too bad your OW never had to wash your clothes, cook your dinners, take care of the kids, clean the house, comfort you and take care of you when you're sick, etc, etc. But of course, then your relationship would be "real". 

You devote all your emotional energy for your OW, and I'm quite sure your BW is suffering because of it. You've cheated on your poor betrayed wife for so long.

You claim to be a man of integrity. 

So put your money where your mouth is. Confess your affair to your suffering betrayed wife and children. Divorce her so you can sail off into the sunset with your OW. That way she can find a *real man of honor and integrity* that won't betray her. Or better yet, send her a link to here, and we'll take care of her.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, dude...the Land of Unicorns and Rainbows certainly is wonderful this time of year ~ I'll grant you that. Well, actually it seems you've been visiting for 4 years, so I'll take that back.

I'll ask this of your OW: Does she fart? Pick her nose? Take a dump while you're around?

Probably not.

Cuz that's just how it is in the wonderful Land of Unicorns and Rainbows.

You don't get that with your wife and kids. They're kind of a burden to you. When you're with the OW you can forget all of the financial crap, the chores, and yes...even your kids.

With the OW there is no burden. No hard stuff to deal with. It's just f'ng fabulous, isn't it?

Well, ask your wife how nice it is while she's sitting at home with absolutely no knowledge of your second life. You'll find no solace for your soul pickle in TAM. What you'll find are people who have been through the wringer of an affair and that would be both the betrayed AND the wayward.

If you take the time to actually read what some have been through, you just might be able to see that what you're doing is simply wrong.

You have already divorced your wife. She just doesn't know it, yet. So, nut up and give her what she deserves: A better life.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> I'm *NOT* a naive love-sick teenager.


No, but you're a naive love-sick 40-something.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Sorry, all above is true. The 'spark' you don't feel for your wife is intensified by the fact that you have exited your marriage without your wife's knowledge. That is a cruel thing to do. As soon as you felt the need to look elsewhere you should have realised that there were serious issues in your marriage and tried to fix them or accept that your marriage should never has been. Instead you have opened the possibility of excitement that you weren't getting in your marriage and to get it elsewhere. That is a most cruel and cowardly act. You should have left her BEFORE you went elsewhere. That would have been the true test of if your marriage was 'average' and your new love is 'true'. 

Seeing as you did not do that, I completely agree with Dawn above. You HAVE to let your wife go. Let her go to find someone who will love her like she deserves. Like she needs - just as you do. You think she doesn't feel the void? Has she exited the marriage? No! Do her a favour, if you love her like you say you do, let her go to find happiness too. And be the best ex and the best divorced dad you can be. Stop being a coward. Decide. Now.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I bet youll feel the spark for your wife again when shes with a new guy and he's showing your kids what a person of integrity actually looks like.

Men of integrity don't have affairs. They don't have affairs not because there aren't other wonderful women out there besides their wives, they don't have affairs because as men if integrity they choose not too.

And that's the difference between cheap talk and a real man.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

OP, instead of spending time in the 'Sex in Marriage' sub-forum why don't you come back and dialogue with us.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)




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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

What a complete and utter load of drivel.

Soul in a pickle?! I could say a few things about your pickle, and most of them would hurt. Badly.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

"This love's different because it's us."


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm actually subscribing to this thread because it's a great example of someone DEEP in the fog. That way I can refer to it later.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> when you "know" you know


When you're so sure you "know" you actually know nothing. 

I wonder if those lines of "so-so" marriage would have been written before this affair. And i wonder if you have to get into a routine with this other woman without the thrill of novelty and sneaking around, won't you then realize that you're exactly at the same point you are with your wife right now, or worse.

You claim rationality and cynicism. Here is some for you. Your words are not rational. They are the product of a chemical high you have for this woman that will pass in time. Just like it did with your wife.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Okay folks. I appreciate the honest feedback - even though it's unanimously negative. I wasn't trying to justify the affair nor was I trying to find reason to continue having an affair. I was hoping to find if there was somone else in a similar situation as I was in - feeling trapped.

Please investigate the term SEMI-HAPPY marriage. It's an odd situation where one minute you cannot stand the thought of staying and another minute you cannot bear the thought of leaving.

As I said before, I *USED* to live a life of honesty and full integrity. It was something I was always proud of. I never imagined falling in love with another person. But it happened. I feel my mistake was for "settling" into a marriage with the wrong person - possibly due to my reluctance to date lots of people in my youth (I only had a small handful of relationships).

Instead, I pretty much stuck with a long-term BF/GF relationship to give the relationship an opportunity to grow & develop. But being a teenager and early 20's IMO is not really a mature enough age to begin with (I know that now, but did not back then). I'm sorry I didn't have a handbook or an older sibling to help guide my youth.

In essence, I feel that I made the mistake of settling. For many years life was... well... FINE. It was nice with relatively no complaints. Not necessarily a high amount of passion either, but at least a relationship with low conflict (a SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE).

The attachment developed with the co-worker, I admit, was wrong. It is NEVER right to cheat. I never said I was perfect, nor am I trying to give excuses. Please understand what I am feeling and going through. If I felt my wife was a "*****" or if the marriage was "awful", I would have left long before the affair started. Just as with all relationsihps, nothing is ever perfect. Many times I voiced complaints and offered suggestions on things that need to be changed. The typical pattern is the same. The birdcage would get "rattled" in the short-term. Things would temporarily improve but slowly & surely always reverting back with no ongoing improvement.

You live your life... day in & day out. In a "pleasant" (but passionless) marriage. One with very little conflict. Everything is "good" (but boring and no spark). Day in, and day out. You try to initiate changes to make things better. The wife, at first, says "sure honey". But weeks or months later it's back to the same old program. You restlessly lie in bed wondering if this was all life has to offer, etc.

As for the co-worker, we both gave a few attempts to break things off. We both felt it would be the "right thing" to do for our spouses. But the fact is we only did it because our minds said it was the right choice. Our hearts, on the other hand, completely different story.

To the person that was curious to how I filed papers undetected. Actually, papers were filed and I discussed with my wife that I wanted a divorce. She begged and pleaded for me to stay. That we should go to counseling. I thought about the stress it would be to break up the family. I thought about the impact the divorce would have on the children (note... I was NOT thinking of the impact on my wife but the CHILDREN). Being that my wife has not done anything overtly "wrong" in the relationship, I felt the divorce would be a grossly unfair thing to do (even though I desparately wanted out). To this day neither of us has set a single appointment with a marriage counsellor.

And actually... yes... I absolutely believe this other woman actually knows me better than my wife does. Sad, isn't it?

I understand life is different when you are dating someone and only getting the BEST of the relationship. I know things are different when there's finances, housework, laundry, and other turmoil in the mix. I know this. But the honest truth is what keeps me close to this other woman is NOT the physical aspect of the relationship - but more the emotional connection that I have never felt before (with anyone else).

I know a choice must be made. On the surface, I know this sounds so stereotypical... an "affair with a co-worker". But 4 years is a very long time to be in love with someone and stuck in limbo. Yes, it's my own limbo and one I caused myself.

Obviously this forum is heavily slanted towards saving & protecting a marriage instead of impartial and unbiased advice. It seems like most people here feel I'm an absolute prick. But I know I'm not alone. I know there are others out there who have found the woman of their dreams (even if after marriage).

It's not that I'm "chicken" to cause harm to myself. It's more that I'm afraid to cause harm to our kids, and also the unfairness to our spouses who haven't done anything overtly wrong. There are many other couples fighting much HARDER problems - like drugs, alchohol, abusive relationships, etc. In our situation our spouses are good resonsible people. Yet both this OW and I completely feel we have found a companionship that is so rare and special. It is literally the situation of finding "THE ONE" - but after you have already married someone else.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

You wrote some really silly stuff in your opening post. Assuming you are not a troll, I'd say get yourself as quickly as possible to a really good therapist who understands infidelity (check that out first if you are serious about your life, and the lives of your children and wife). Get as much time with that therapist as you can. If you have any good friends who are solid characters, spend some time with them too. Trying as hard as I can to take you seriously and be constructive. Grow up.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You can stop right there. Any married person can tell you that marriage should be an automatic ticket to effortless bliss. If you don't spend your days in effortless bliss, well then you're not really living. Now, some people will tell you that sometimes life is hard. But those are just envious people who haven't married the right person to experience the effortless bliss that the rest of us enjoy.
> 
> 
> No need to apologize. See, there's a difference between liars and cheaters, and men of integrity whose only crime is seeking effortless bliss. Those sour grapes folks may argue that married men of integrity don't date other women, and eventually fall in love with them. But hey, if your wife was providing the effortless bliss that you deserve, you never would have been looking elsewhere for it. So, it's all her fault, right? Because you have more integrity than some guy who already has effortless bliss, but still wants some action on the side. You're downright noble.
> ...



Now that's some good old down home sarcasm


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Please investigate the term SEMI-HAPPY marriage. It's an odd situation where one minute you cannot stand the thought of staying and another minute you cannot bear the thought of leaving.


Seriously? You don't think everyone who is married has been there and back several times before dinner? Your wife included, no doubt.



RichardCollier said:


> Obviously this forum is heavily slanted towards saving & protecting a marriage instead of impartial and unbiased advice.


You are so far off the mark on both points.

Go hike the Appalachain Trail. Send your kids a postcard.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

I literally spat my coffee out at this. There is no point at all in offering advice to you at this stage. 

Just.. omg. omg BFF carve two hearts into a tree. [still laughing] one and only. wife is crazy and she uses the wrong type of washing powder when she washes my underwear and looks after my kids..
only one..

There is a great scene in "sliding doors" where the guy in the affair is telling a story, much like this, to his mate in the pub.
"What should I do???" he says to his friend.

'Well. [though laughter] your not gonna like my advice... It's based in reality."


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Also...

I have found plenty of evidence that suggests people are resilient and eventually move on. My mom and dad divorced. I had xlt grades in High School & College. I don't do drugs, and I rarely drink.

There is also evidence that children that live in abusive households (where there is constant arguing & yelling) end up WORSE than if the parents ended up divorced. Obviously, this is not the case with us but am stating a counter-argument that most children do end up fine after their parents divorce. I think it depends on how well the seperated parents handle things. Yes, there is a small % that have emotional & drug problems (like the other person mentioned). However, the vast majority of children end up perfectly fine. I guess with a 50% divorce society they would have to.

So I guess the moral of the story is that it's okay to break up a family (divorce) if the person is unhappy in a marriage. But it is not okay to divorce if a person find the love of their life. Because in the 1st example, the divorce was due to unhapiness (which is a higher moral standard than cheating). Is that the consensus?


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

You have all the symptoms of being in the fog. You can live in it as long as you want to, so long as you continue to justify yourself, you will never come out of it. 

Long story short, this is not a matter of how you feel anymore, because how you feel is skewed. You are not in the right mind. You have already thrown away your marriage by the sounds of it. You are lying, and deceiving your W. You think that if you leave your W for this woman you are SO in love with...that you will have these tingling feelings forever? Then go have it. Back up your what you are saying 100% and leave. Then come back 10 years from now and let us know if those "tingly" butterfly feelings are still there. You would DIE without this woman right? Can't have your W on the side the I guess. Your AP's got you wrapped up in BS.

Why would you come on here to find someone else in the same situation? To justify yourself more? To get some empathetic support? Go find it with your AP. She knows you best.


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## sweetpea (Jan 30, 2007)

Posters 

Please remember to be respectful to
Op when you are responding to his or her post. You don't have to agree with the op, but you have to treat everyone with respect and dignity.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm 43, and have been married for over 13 years. We have 3 beautiful children together (all girls). My wife and I met in high school, and have only dated a handful of people prior to marriage. As boyfriend and girlfriend, we both got along well. Although there was nothing earth-shattering with our relationship, we always assumed marriage would be in our future.
> 
> ...


What you described is what most other folks feel when they are in an EA. They all feel that this is special yadda yadda yadda.

I had an EA. My wife called me on it. I quit my job. 

This is what you must do. Quit your job and go full NC with this other woman. You are under the influence of brain chemicals in the sam,e way that any of us in an EA have been effected.

I could go on and on but as STRONGLY as you feel and as DEEP a CONNECTION you feel you have .. it is just chemicals.

You will not realize this until you complete withdrawal.

So get you HEAD our of your ASS and cut this woman loose. Start focusing on your MARRIAGE and your WIFE.

Stop the FEAR. Stop being AFRAID. You know this is WRONG so be a MAN about it.


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## momma2four (Aug 9, 2012)

You pretty much said you are staying for the children. Do you have a daughter? What would you say to her if you found out her husband was doing this to her? 

It's WRONG on so many levels!! I grew-up with a father that cheated and my mother stayed. I wish she would have left! I think if she had, I wouldn't have such a problem leaving my husband who had a long term PA for 4 years and a few short term PAs. 

At first I thought I would do more harm to my children if I left my DH, but I'm beginning to see I will empower them the knowledge of what fedility really means. I have 3 daughters and 1 son. I would never want any of them to go thru what I'm going thru.

My children have seen all my ups and downs over the past year since I found out my H was cheating. I have been an emotional wreck. Kinda sad to see my 5 year old comforting me because she knows how sad I have been. I know they deserve a happy mom, a happy life and I can only give that to them if I leave my DH. So do your children a favor and leave your wife so she can move on with her life and find happiness without you.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> So that's what it's like to be in affair land, it's all lollipops and rainbows.
> 
> The OW is so in tune and it's heavenly bliss. Too bad your OW never had to wash your clothes, cook your dinners, take care of the kids, clean the house, comfort you and take care of you when you're sick, etc, etc. But of course, then your relationship would be "real".
> 
> ...


This said all I wanted to say and then some. I liked it so much I decided to say that I liked it plus click liking it. You pretty much rule with words~!

Richard Collier, you're reliving your first time in love. It's called "affair fog" and can last as long as it takes to get into the same house as this woman. After that, she'll be your wife and you'll fall out of it with her too.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

> It's been over 4 years and I still have butterflies & tingles. My heart still melts like the time I first heard her say she loved me


.
This..
In any normal relationship these feelings pass after a year or so. It sort of has to because other parts of your life need attention. In an affair this feeling goes on for as long as the affair,
You are doing the classic affair thing and confusing intensity with intimacy.
The illicit nature of the affair adds to the general excitement and the difficulties are bonding you. Longing is powerful and your future is a mirage, but full of possibility.

If you want to find out what your life will be like in reality then you must tell your wife. She will be hurt. She will kick you out and you will have all the time in the world to be with your "one and only". You can move in together. You can do the washing up and pay the power bills, she can get pissed you forgot to take out the garbage. 
When you have done this for a few months come back and tell us how the butterflies are going. Tell us how long you stare in to each other eyes then.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EA = extramarital affair?
What does AP stand for?

Sorry, but I'm new here. Just joined today.

I came here looking for GOOD advice at what I'm facing. Not sarcasm. This hasn't been 4 weeks or 4 months. It's been 4 years. I'm feeling very sad and depressed about the whole situation. I love this woman so much, but have dealt with 4 years being apart and living a lie.

I have researched and found there is a lot of "brain chemicals" that pretty much make people "MADLY" in love (like... insane in a literal sense). If that is true, than why haven't I ever felt this "MADLY IN LOVE" with my wife? Even during our youth? I have never felt this way with anybody else before, actually.

Brain chemicals or not, the honest truth is that the amount of feelings I share with this other person completely trump anything else I have felt for my wife. There are those select few lucky ones who HAVE married the love of their lives. I'm not saying their lives are free from turmoil or problems. Nor am I saying their lives are "fantasy bliss". I know that.

I also hear testimonies of people... who both state they HATE leaving their spouse to go to their jobs... because they are still so in love with their husband & wife (after decades). There ARE relationships out there that have this quality. Sadly, it is NOT the life that I'm in and I suppose it's probably not the life the vast majority (guessing 95% plus) marriages are in either.

But trying my best to look at this from the outside in...

The quality in the way this other person and I interact is miles above the "best" my wife and I have ever interacted since day 1. I'm not saying what my co-worker GF and I are going through is so unique & rare that nobody else feels it.

What I'm asking for advice to BOTH sides of the equation. My heart tells me I should divorce my wife and do whatever it takes to be with the person I love. My mind tells me the affair was wrong to begin with, and I should sacrifice my feelings aside and break my own heart and stay faithfully married to the wife (keeping the family) together this point forward.

I know what 99.9% of this board will unanimously suggest. :-\

But would they truly suggest that knowing that we truly have found the love of each other's lives (and not stuck in a "fantasy")?
And also knowing if the children and spouses will eventually move on to live relatively happy lives? Would the SAME advice still be given?

Also, from the research I've done the IN-LOVE "brain chemicals" typically last between 6-9 months. It's been 4 years and not a single drop or dip in sight. Just saying.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Any relationship you have with this woman will be no better than the marriage you have with your wife. Why do I say that? Because you will make the same mistakes you have made with your wife and threat this new woman just as badly as you treat your wife. You have not taken the time to improve yourself or to learn what you did wrong in your marriage.

I hope that you both divorce your spouses so they can go on to find people who can truely love.

You and the OW deserve each other.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Then I suggest you have your betrayed wife come to this site. She's in denial and shock because she has no idea what she's done to deserve this. That's why she's clinging to you.

And I'm sure the OWH has no idea that his own WW is cheating with you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Okay folks. I appreciate the honest feedback - even though it's unanimously negative. I wasn't trying to justify the affair nor was I trying to find reason to continue having an affair. I was hoping to find if there was somone else in a similar situation as I was in - feeling trapped.
> 
> Please investigate the term SEMI-HAPPY marriage. It's an odd situation where one minute you cannot stand the thought of staying and another minute you cannot bear the thought of leaving.
> 
> ...


Study up on brain chemicals. What you describe is called hostroy re-writing. You are each having needs met by each other without having to do any heavy lifting. Your hearts are in love with a fantasy.

The brain chemicals are the same as with cocain addiction. You only care about the next fix. This is how it works. Until you go through withdrawal you will not understand because you are in an imparied mental state right now.

EA = Emotional Affair

PA = Physical Affair

TROLL = Internet Troll


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> EA = extramarital affair?
> What does AP stand for?


EA = Emotional Affair
PA = Physical Affair
AP = Affair partner
OW = Other woman
WS = Wayward spouse
BS = Betrayed spouse


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Is you want to know what is going on with you and the OW, read the book "Surviving An Affair" By Dr. Harley.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Also...
> 
> I have found plenty of evidence that suggests people are resilient and eventually move on. My mom and dad divorced. I had xlt grades in High School & College. I don't do drugs, and I rarely drink.
> 
> ...


So like many here rather than coming for advice you come here to preach some agenda. I see. This might be better posted on a cheater website to justify affairs. This website is Talk About Marriage.

You married the love of your life. Finding a soulmate is total horse crap. Again this is how most folks in an affair feel. You have not found a soulmate, you have someone you enjoy cheating with.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

ING...

of ALL the posts I've read, yours was the most constructive.

Like I said above, the normal "head-over-heels in love" bliss phase is about 6-9 months.

So am I feeling this for 4 years because she really is THE ONE? Which I completely believe?

Or, is it simply because this is how long the affair has lasted?

The longing I feel is EXTREMELY powerful. It hurts. I know I have no sympathy on this board because to everyone on here I'm the "philandering husband" everyone hates.

But I came on here with blood, sweat, and tears trying my hardest to do the RIGHT thing... whether it be to (finally) divorce my wife and live an honest life with the person I'm in love with.

Or... to convince my mind this love of my life is really just a "mirage" (which is I'm sure what the vast majority of people think) and break things off with her instead?

If I divorce my wife I know I need to be completely honest about the reasons (including the affair).

If I stop the relationship with the emotional affair, I would greatly prefer NOT to share this truth with the wife. If I am to stay married, I feel this burden of guilt must stay with me until the day I die. If I come clean about this affair (and beg my wife to forgive me), it would probably even be more emotionally devastating than if I just divorced.

Either way it goes, what I want to do is live an HONEST life. Either with who I believe is the love of my life, or my wife. I'm sick of the lies. There was a small amount of excitement with the sneaking around bit, but seriously... in the end that aspect is really way too stressful to be fully enjoyable. A full-time 24/7 relationship (on EITHER account) would be much more rewarding than 2 halves.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Richard, what is your question?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RichardCollier said:


> Also...
> 
> I have found plenty of evidence that suggests people are resilient and eventually move on. My mom and dad divorced. I had xlt grades in High School & College. I don't do drugs, and I rarely drink.


Just remember, 5 out of every 6 people who play Russian Roulette live. So, it can't be that bad, right?



RichardCollier said:


> There is also evidence that children that live in abusive households (where there is constant arguing & yelling) end up WORSE than if the parents ended up divorced. Obviously, this is not the case with us but am stating a counter-argument that most children do end up fine after their parents divorce. I think it depends on how well the seperated parents handle things. Yes, there is a small % that have emotional & drug problems (like the other person mentioned). However, the vast majority of children end up perfectly fine. I guess with a 50% divorce society they would have to.


Well, as you said, your kids aren't in an abusive household. Your kids live in a functional household where Mom and Dad get along great. So they're happy. For now.

And "fine" is a relative term for kids of divorce. Do most children of divorce grow up to be serial killers? No. Do a large percentage of children of divorce grow up disliking one parent, distrusting the opposite sex, and with a dysfunctional view of marriage? Yes.



RichardCollier said:


> So I guess the moral of the story is that it's okay to break up a family (divorce) if the person is unhappy in a marriage. But it is not okay to divorce if a person find the love of their life. Because in the 1st example, the divorce was due to unhapiness (which is a higher moral standard than cheating). Is that the consensus?


Nope. The consensus is that true abuse, or infidelity, are reasonable grounds for divorce. Some people think that an unhappy marriage is grounds for divorce. Some people think that a semi-happy marriage is grounds for divorce. Some people think anything is justified in the search for effortless bliss.

The good news for you, might be bad news for your wife and kids, is that the courts don't give a crap why you want to end your marriage. You just sign a piece of paper, and you're done.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> He is here to preach that having affairs is good and justified if your find your soulmate.


So after 5,000 years of recorded civilization, this guy has figured it out?


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> But 4 years is a very long time to be in love with someone


It really isn't because the REAL stuff hasn't started yet. You'll know what these guys are trying to tell you when are there. For now you're living this fantasy that this woman has no flaws and is your other half and all that. Thing is, you really don't know this. 

Having to sneak around and never letting guards down means that you never had the chance to really try being with this other woman. Let's say you divorce and you find out that she ain't all that. Or that she cheats on you like she is doing to that other poor bastard (maybe he "knows" she wouldn't cheat). What then? You crush your family life and get nothing for it. 

Now, are you with your wife by accident? She just happened to be there and you married her? Or are your opinions of her and your past being slanted by the chemical high you're getting from this other woman?

You talk about a "semi-happy" marriage. Now, would this marriage still be only "semi-happy" if this woman was out of the picture? Because your description of your marriage sounds a lot like a happy marriage until it got rocked by a new piece of tail. 

Do you think this other woman won't have her quirks? Won't have fights with you, won't displease you sometimes? Do you think this woman is the passport of a bliss of a marriage?

Answer these and decide. And, by the way, i personally am not "pro-marriage" (heck i'm not even legally married, being in a long term relationship) but i'm pretty much "pro-happiness", and i'm not sure that yours can be found by destroying your marriage.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mmm I did not have a wife who cheated for 4 years once I had one who cheated continually for 6/7 - the same thing really.

One thing I will say about you and you wont like it is that you are a cruel cruel heartless man. To your wife and children

This is a choice you have made

Add to that a compulsive liar deceiver and dishonest to the core

If I asked you if you would want to fall in love with a person like that I suspect you'd say "Who me, never not in a million years, that is a horrible nasty vindictive person I could never entertain the idea of being in love with someone like that"

Guess what ?


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

I think one of the worst things in this situation is that you are lying to yourself as well. It's such intense lying that you are believing it.

You need to leave your wife or leave the other woman. In the words of my not so classy mother "**** or get off the pot"

Then and only then can you live your honest life.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

EA = extramarital affair?
What does AP stand for?

AP= Affair Partner 
Not the same as Girl friend. I have a GF and she is awesome. You have an AP

Sorry, but I'm new here. Just joined today.



> I came here looking for GOOD advice at what I'm facing. Not sarcasm. This hasn't been 4 weeks or 4 months. It's been 4 years. I'm feeling very sad and depressed about the whole situation. I love this woman so much, but have dealt with 4 years being apart and living a lie.


How much time have you actually spent with her in that 4 years? I mean One on one doing things. not at work.





> I have researched and found there is a lot of "brain chemicals" that pretty much make people "MADLY" in love (like... insane in a literal sense). If that is true, than why haven't I ever felt this "MADLY IN LOVE" with my wife? Even during our youth? I have never felt this way with anybody else before, actually.


You are rewriting your marriage. In fact you have been doing it so long that you believe this. You married her, you had sex like rabbits for months, you had children wiith her.



> Brain chemicals or not, the honest truth is that the amount of feelings I share with this other person completely trump anything else I have felt for my wife. There are those select few lucky ones who HAVE married the love of their lives. I'm not saying their lives are free from turmoil or problems. Nor am I saying their lives are "fantasy bliss". I know that.


You know that because you are in an affair and are constantly topping up the brain chemicals. The affair is what you are in love with. Not her.



> I also hear testimonies of people... who both state they HATE leaving their spouse to go to their jobs... because they are still so in love with their husband & wife (after decades). There ARE relationships out there that have this quality. Sadly, it is NOT the life that I'm in and I suppose it's probably not the life the vast majority (guessing 95% plus) marriages are in either.


We all can find examples of this. 




> But trying my best to look at this from the outside in...


And failing dismally as people in an affair always do.



> The quality in the way this other person and I interact is miles above the "best" my wife and I have ever interacted since day 1. I'm not saying what my co-worker GF and I are going through is so unique & rare that nobody else feels it.


She is not your GF she is yoru Affair partner. She can be your GF later



> What I'm asking for advice to BOTH sides of the equation. My heart tells me I should divorce my wife and do whatever it takes to be with the person I love.


Then do it.



> My mind tells me the affair was wrong to begin with, and I should sacrifice my feelings aside and break my own heart and stay faithfully married to the wife (keeping the family) together this point forward.


You don't have that option anymore.



> I know what 99.9% of this board will unanimously suggest. :-\


No you don't. You are hoping we tell you to stop seeing your "GF" and make up with your wife. I suspect you will have little choice in this once you have told her. You will be Divorced in months. 
. 


> But would they truly suggest that knowing that we truly have found the love of each other's lives (and not stuck in a "fantasy")?
> And also knowing if the children and spouses will eventually move on to live relatively happy lives? Would the SAME advice still be given?


People do recover from Divorce. Kids do adjust and if your wife will be okay once she has kicked you out, found a new friend who deserves and loves her. 
You will not. Your life is changed no matter what happens now and you are making the mistake of thinking you can get away with this forever. She will find out. She will though you out when she does. You will be divorced.



> Also, from the research I've done the IN-LOVE "brain chemicals" typically last between 6-9 months. It's been 4 years and not a single drop or dip in sight. Just saying.


As long as the affair continues the drugs are topped up. Cruel ain't it.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> ING...
> 
> of ALL the posts I've read, yours was the most constructive.
> 
> ...



Sorry for us being so cross. But a lot of us have and are going through the exact same thing you are. I myself have come out of this type of situation before (not all A stories are the same). and I am hoping that my H is as well. It's hard to watch someone else who is still in the fog. It's almost painful to hear your story in a "ugh" sort of way.

You are right...you should be living an honest life. It is not rewarding to be living a lie. It stinks. Time will do it's number on you if you keep living like this. and like I always say, either you will reveal the truth, or it will reveal itself. But as for now, you need to decide what you want most out of life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> I can't really say there is anything wrong with my wife.


Jeez, mate! That's so damned _decent_ of you.

I am sure that your 'ringing endorsement' of your wife will comfort her in her soon to be new role as a lonely single parent living, as you alluded to, in a nasty little hovel somewhere, while you live the high life with the one true love of your life.

You said you are not a love struck teen. *Yes. You. Are.*


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl...

Actually, you are INCORRECT about me "not learning" from my mistakes. Believe me, I have learned a GREAT DEAL of how to manage conflict & arguments over the last 20 years.

I met my wife at a very young age. I was 18 years old, and still growing up. Back then I was very immature in how I handled things. I made some bad judgment calls. Also said some awful things (during arguments, etc.).

Through this course of growing up, I learned so much... in how to CONSTRUCTIVELY resolve arguments. Always keeping the other person's feelings at hand. Unfortunately, I feel a lot of potential between my wife and I could have possibly become tainted due to immaturity (on BOTH parts).

And even though I'm the "a-hole" who is posting on this board, do not think for a second the wife is 100% pure and innocent of any wrong-doings. NOBODY is 100% to blame in a relationship.

I didn't come on here to preach an agenda. I'm seeking HONEST (but GOOD) advice. I was hoping to get a fair and impartial treatment on BOTH sides of the fence. Divorcing wife for presumed love of their life -vs- breaking up with OW.

I don't feel comfortable making such a life-changing decision without SINCERE, UNSARCASTIC, and SUPPORTIVE advice on BOTH sides of the argument.

Either this was the absolute BEST forum I joined (to knock some sense into me), or it was not the best forum because of the heavily biased mindset of the responders (hating those who fell in love while married).


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RichardCollier said:


> I came here looking for GOOD advice at what I'm facing. Not sarcasm.


What advice? You don't want advice. You want support in abandoning your family to be with your girlfriend. You won't get that here.



RichardCollier said:


> What I'm asking for advice to BOTH sides of the equation. My heart tells me I should divorce my wife and do whatever it takes to be with the person I love. My mind tells me the affair was wrong to begin with, and I should sacrifice my feelings aside and break my own heart and stay faithfully married to the wife (keeping the family) together this point forward.
> 
> I know what 99.9% of this board will unanimously suggest. :-\


Well, there you have it. I am a Christian, so that influences my beliefs on marriage. I believe that marriage is a covenant between two people and God. Therefore, divorcing your wife because you started dating this really awesome chick that you unintentionally fell in love with, after you dated her for a while, isn't really kosher.



RichardCollier said:


> But would they truly suggest that knowing that we truly have found the love of each other's lives (and not stuck in a "fantasy")?
> And also knowing if the children and spouses will eventually move on to live relatively happy lives? Would the SAME advice still be given?


That depends. Did your marriage vows include the statement, "... until death do us part, or one of us finds somebody WAY better?"

As for your kids, I don't have my crystal ball. You think your kids will turn out great. Some children of divorce do. Some children of divorce grow up hating their fathers, hooked on crystal meth, and prostituting themselves. Only you can decide how much of a risk you're willing to take with your kids.

But, as you pointed out before, you are not alone. Frivolous divorce is a booming industry. There are literally millions of people who have divorced their spouses and abandoned their kids because they found another person who was better looking, better in bed, or they were just bored. Does that make them bad people? Well, yeah, I think so. But you would be one among many.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> (hating those who fell in love while married).


Or as we call it, lying and screwing another woman behind your wife's back. Just the way you phrase it shows that you want to make it seem like its okay, because you are in LOVE. You are also married. So its not okay. Drop the whole " But we are in LOVE" talk and get into the " I am lying, cheating, and denying my wife a true marriage" talk.


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## momma2four (Aug 9, 2012)

Even if you stay in your marriage it will never work if you don't think what you are doing is wrong. You have to be truely sorry for doing something like this, and it seems like you would be settling for 2nd best if you stay married. Be a man and tell your wife everything, don't lie! Let her move on and find someone that really loves her, instead of her thinking that you do.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> EleGirl...
> 
> Actually, you are INCORRECT about me "not learning" from my mistakes. Believe me, I have learned a GREAT DEAL of how to manage conflict & arguments over the last 20 years.
> 
> ...


Then quit your job. Cut this OW from your life and make your marriage better for your children, your wife and yourself.

That is straight up in your face solid advice whether you want it or not.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> I have researched and found there is a lot of "brain chemicals" that pretty much make people "MADLY" in love (like... insane in a literal sense). If that is true, than why haven't I ever felt this "MADLY IN LOVE" with my wife? Even during our youth? I have never felt this way with anybody else before, actually.


You are assuming that feeling “madly in love” is a good thing. It’s not necessarily. It’s actually an unrealistic state that is making the two of you behave in a way that is devastating the lives of everyone close to you. 

The reason that you are feeling madly in love is because of brain chemistry and not just because of the OW. Your wife is contributing to this feeling as well.

Let’s say that people have 10 important emotional needs. Your wife fills maybe 7 of those pretty well. That’s normal as no one person can fill all of another person’s needs. But having 7 of your 10 important needs met is pretty darn good.

Now you meet the OW and she starts to fill the remaining 3 emotional needs. Now you don’t just feel pretty good, you feel high as a kite. Your brain chemicals are going crazy. All of your needs are now being met. 

The reason you are having so much trouble leaving your wife is that you need her more than you need the OW. Your wife meets the majority of your needs. If you leave her they will not be met. If you leave her the OW will have to meet all of your emotional needs. But if you turn to her to meet all or most of your emotional needs, that will put a pressure on your relationship with the OW. She has signed up to be your AP. She has not signed up to meet all of your needs. So your relationship with the OW will fall apart as she feels more and more pressure put on her to meet all of your needs. 

This is why affairs seldom last once the AP’s divorce their perspective spouses. Suddenly they are hit square in the face with real life. But the relationship was built on meeting only about 3-4 of the other’s needs. Meeting only 3-4 of a person’s top emotional needs is not enough to sustain a long term relationship. Thus only about 3% of affairs last once the AP’s are free of their spouses.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You can stop right there. Any married person can tell you that marriage should be an automatic ticket to effortless bliss. If you don't spend your days in effortless bliss, well then you're not really living. Now, some people will tell you that sometimes life is hard. But those are just envious people who haven't married the right person to experience the effortless bliss that the rest of us enjoy.
> 
> 
> No need to apologize. See, there's a difference between liars and cheaters, and men of integrity whose only crime is seeking effortless bliss. Those sour grapes folks may argue that married men of integrity don't date other women, and eventually fall in love with them. But hey, if your wife was providing the effortless bliss that you deserve, you never would have been looking elsewhere for it. So, it's all her fault, right? Because you have more integrity than some guy who already has effortless bliss, but still wants some action on the side. You're downright noble.
> ...


:iagree:
If there was a prize for Post of the Month, this would be the August winner! Absolutely beautiful!:smthumbup:


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## sweetpea (Jan 30, 2007)

Can we give some constructive advice to our OP without sarcasm and piling it on him. Last warning and people will be banned if it happens again!

OP- It sounds like you mind is made up on what you want to do.
Most people on TAM will not support your decision because we are a pro-marriage website. Many of our posters have been in your wife's shoes and have very strong feelings about infidelity. 

I suggest you seek individual counseling because either decision will have consequences for you and your family. 

Just a thought- Can you look in you children's eyes and tell them that you did everything possible to save your marriage. This would be my thinking if I was in your situation. I wouldn't be able to look at my children without answering this question.


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

Acutally, I think what are looking for is justification for the path you have chosen.
You already have a chosen path in your mind, you are just hoping someone on here will pipe up & confirm this for you.
When it comes down to it, we are all very similar in the way we think & this is the way most of us approach difficult situations, we hunt around until we find the answer we want to hear.
You are in a difficult situation of your own making, you have to man up & sort it out, once & for all. You are probably picking fights with your wife because you are trying to get her to be the 'bad guy' & break up the marriage. That leaves you to move onto the other woman guilt free.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Richard, sincerely, and taking your posts in earnest, can you distill any of this into a few concise questions or statements of where you are and what guidance you are looking for?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You're getting hit from all sides here not because you say you're in love with someone other than your W, but because you've behaved dishonorably. Divorcing your wife would be the respectful thing at this point, not staying in the marriage and continuing to lie.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

To HOTDOGS... I'm NOT lying to myself. Part of me feels there was a reason why I could not follow through with divorcing. The biggest part of me thinks it's just the devastation and family breakup. A tiny part of me wonders if the UNgreen grass on the other side will be come so overwhelming would severely taint things in the new relationship (overwhelming financial problems, custody battles, other emotional hardships, etc.). I honestly don't feel the OW is a "mirage".

I know some people think I am more "in love" with the affair, but that isn't true. It's the PERSON I'm in love with (and miss). I actually believe if I met my wife at a later age... maybe late 20's or early 30's the 2 of us would have developed an awesome "love of my life" type relationship. My wife and I met when I was a teenager. She is one year younger than I am (also a teenager). We were both "kids" that grew up together. In the early stages I was half "father figure" helping her with homework and keeping her on course with school. The other half was BF.

Please don't generalize all affairs as the same "beast". They are all different and dinstinct with their own hiccups and traits.

I wasn't being sarcastic by saying "there isn't anything WRONG with my wife". The message I was trying to get across was she is NOT a bad person. She is not a nagging "b*tch". Overall my wife and I get along quite well. It just feels like our relationship is more like co-habitating parents raising our children instead of a mutually loving affectionate relationship should be. My wife and I developed our "patterns" in the early stages of our relationship (early teens).

My current GF/OW and I developed our "patterns" in a much more later & mature advantage point. We BOTH have learned all the "do's & do NOT's" from the course of our previous relationships. So I do realize my OW-GF and I have the advantage of always getting the "good" (without the bad), but also having the wisom and experience we took with us from our previous relationships.

I do realize that both of these factors (and mostly being more mature) made our relationship **INITIALLY DEVELOP** very strongly to a level we both mutually felt.

So... (to cut through the chase)...

Is there ANYBODY on this board who had success making such a leap of faith to divorce their spouse for a new life with someone else?

I have personal experience of 3 relationships... that were "born" from from affairs. In 2 cases the couples lived faithful to each other very happily and the injured parties involved moved on and had happier lives. In the other case the man who left severely regretted the decision.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I'll take a slightly different approach. You say you have two daughters and a son. What if this was happening to your daughter, and her husband was giving his heart and soul to another woman for the past four years? All the while your daughter has been giving her life to her husband, bore him 3 children, toiled and sacrificed for her husband, took care of your grandchild, and her husband rewards her by giving his love to another woman? And she comes crying to you about this?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Richard, let me tell you something. I was my wife's affair partner back in the late 1980s plus.

Yes, it was wrong to be in an affair. I never sought to justify my actions, and my now wife did not justify her actions, either.

She did not leave her husband, and as his ill health got worse and worse, she tended him and I helped her look after him. And felt honoured to do so.

After a 'decent' space of time after he died, we became husband and wife.

I feel offended by your justifications. They sound hollow. 

At first you implied your wife did no wrong, then you are implying that perhaps she did do some wrong.

You should not divorce your wife. However, perhaps your wife should divorce you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> EleGirl...
> 
> Actually, you are INCORRECT about me "not learning" from my mistakes. Believe me, I have learned a GREAT DEAL of how to manage conflict & arguments over the last 20 years.
> 
> ...


My comment was 100% sincere.

You have not learned how to maintain a healthy, long term marriage. Your marriage is evidence of this. This the next marriage you are in will have exactly the same problems as your current marriage. The basic problem in a marriage with no passion is that the two spouses are not meeting each others emotional needs. Your wife might not be meeting all of your needs, but you are also not meeting hers. IT's a 2 way street.

You are doomed to repeat the disaster of a marriage you have right now if you don't do a lot of work to figure out what is really wrong in your marriage and fix that in yourself.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Bellavista... NO. I'm not looking for justification. I'm looking for advice. I'm very afraid of either choice I'm about to make.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Honest advice. Sit your wife down. Tell her you are sorry, but you have been cheating on her for four years, and you are in love with the other woman. Then sit your kids down and explain to them that this woman means too much to you and you are in love, so you will be leaving them with mommy. This gives your wife the truth about her marriage to you, and your kids now know that mommy didn't make you leave, you left for another woman. 

Allow your wife and kids to move on.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

SweetPea... OMG... THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!

You have no idea how upsetting and stressed out I feel getting bashed and torn to shreds on this site. I had no idea this website was going to be filled with either injured parties or strong religious bias.

I honestly don't think this is the best site to get what I'm looking for, but that's not to say it wasn't worthwhile hearing the strong opinions of others.

BTW... I'm NOT looking for "effortless bliss". I actually enjoy challenges, and helping people.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DawnD said:


> Honest advice. Sit your wife down. Tell her you are sorry, but you have been cheating on her for four years, and you are in love with the other woman. Then sit your kids down and explain to them that this woman means too much to you and you are in love, so you will be leaving them with mommy. This gives your wife the truth about her marriage to you, and your kids now know that mommy didn't make you leave, you left for another woman.
> 
> Allow your wife and kids to move on.


And when you do this, do not expect your children to care for or love the OW. They will most likley hate her. They will also most likely do everything they can to make her misserable and break the two of you up.

I'm not saying this to be mean, sarcastic, etc. It's the way these things normally go.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Richard, 

Is your wife a stay at home mom (SAHM) or does she work outside the home?

What state do you live in?


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> To HOTDOGS... I'm NOT lying to myself. Part of me feels there was a reason why I could not follow through with divorcing. The biggest part of me thinks it's just the devastation and family breakup. A tiny part of me wonders if the UNgreen grass on the other side will be come so overwhelming would severely taint things in the new relationship (overwhelming financial problems, custody battles, other emotional hardships, etc.). I honestly don't feel the OW is a "mirage".
> 
> I know some people think I am more "in love" with the affair, but that isn't true. It's the PERSON I'm in love with (and miss). I actually believe if I met my wife at a later age... maybe late 20's or early 30's the 2 of us would have developed an awesome "love of my life" type relationship. My wife and I met when I was a teenager. She is one year younger than I am (also a teenager). We were both "kids" that grew up together. In the early stages I was half "father figure" helping her with homework and keeping her on course with school. The other half was BF.
> 
> ...



Can you honestly leave your W and say that you tried your very best to have a good marriage with her? (i.e....spicing things up, giving her "butterlies" and the like) You keep saying many things about yourself (and your AP), and of course the children (which matter very much so) but what about your W? Where is she in all of this? I feel so bad for her right now. She is going to be completely blind-sided by all of this.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl...

I do not feel I am doomed to repeat the same mistakes. As I said before, I have learned a tremendous amount from the 20 year experience with my spouse. I might make NEW mistakes, but definitely not repeat the previous ones.

But I must give you credit on something...

Your formula struck a very strong chord with me. My wife does fulfill a good portion of my emotional needs. I'm not sure the %, but obviously it isn't completely void (like 0%-10%). Probably more like 60%-70% (semi-happy). And you are also right in that the areas that I miss most (lacking in the relationship with my wife) the OW completely filled in spades.

I suppose if this OW (in total) only fulfilled 60%-70% of these strong core emotional needs then it would be like I'm just exchanging one problem for another. But what if she fuliflled 90%+?

That is an unknown and a risk.

Look guys... please try not to be judgmental on me. I have been struggling in limbo for 4 years, and it's been taking a toll on not only my emotional health but my physical one too. There were times I got so depressed I didn't even care if I woke up the next day. All I wanted to do is sleep.

I'm trying to fix things so there are no more victims. Either I completely break the relationship off with the OW, or I ask my wife for a divorce. While I'm not in love with my wife, I do greatly love the united FAMILY being together (including my wife). That is a unit that is also special too.

I'm specifically talking about the emotional / intimacy relationship part exclusive between my wife and myself. I truly believe the shortcomings are mostly due to the fact that my wife and I evolved as a couple from a VERY YOUNG AGE. Immature and inexperienced.

My new relationship has the advantage of wisdom + experience + only the "best" (and without the worst). I realize this - and is part of the reason why I hesitated pulling the plug.

A small part of me wonders if it's possible my wife might consider putting in an effort to change things to make our relationship better & stronger. Now to all the Richard haters out there... of course I realize that would mean changes on MY SIDE too.

And to LordMayhem... I would honestly hate the son-in-law's guts. However, there is always TWO SIDES to a story. The daughter probably doesn't tell you the negatives that she has done that could add to the situation.

On a side note... I must say although I don't like the responses I'm getting I'm highly impressed with the SPEED of the responses. Darn it... why couldn't I just get good sollid pros vs. cons instead of all cons?


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## FiguringThingsOut (Aug 10, 2012)

Look, you can have what you want. You can take all the lessons you've learned about constructive arguments and relationships and apply those to your marriage. I know it's cliche, but it's never too late to make a free start - with your wife. That's where you should direct your efforts. You've admitted your AP hasn't had to deal with the every day stuff your wife has. It's not going to make it - period. The light of day will burn it to a crisp. So put your full efforts and focus and energy into making things right with your wife - your children's mother. You really do owe them that. BTW, I'm married to a man who had to deal with his mom cheating on his dad and the after effects. They did divorce, but trust me, it still left lots of scars on my husband. You won't be doing your children any favors by divorcing. You know what you have to do. It's why you're still here on this post letting everyone abuse you. You just need to be taken by the collar and shaken up, so consider yourself well-shaken or stirred, whichever you prefer. You can do the right thing - I believe in you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

> of ALL the posts I've read, yours was the most constructive.
> 
> Like I said above, the normal "head-over-heels in love" bliss phase is about 6-9 months.
> 
> ...


It is because the affair lasts as long as you are willing to sacrifice to it. You are having a romantic affair and that requires sacrifice of everything. Only when there is nothing left to sacrifice will it end. Sorry. 




> The longing I feel is EXTREMELY powerful. It hurts. I know I have no sympathy on this board because to everyone on here I'm the "philandering husband" everyone hates.


And there you have it. It is longing, intensity and missed opporunity. I am not speaking of the top of my head here. 
1. My ExW did what you did and it destroyed her life.
2. My GF did what you did a long time ago and it destroyed her life




> But I came on here with blood, sweat, and tears trying my hardest to do the RIGHT thing... whether it be to (finally) divorce my wife and live an honest life with the person I'm in love with.


You already know, deep , deep down inside the answer to this question. 



> Or... to convince my mind this love of my life is really just a "mirage" (which is I'm sure what the vast majority of people think) and break things off with her instead?


The love of your life is a mirage, a fantasy and it is just as much for her too, it is intoxicating, the longing unbearable. The problem is that you know that this can not be real. You already had a real relationship and this is not it.
You would not be here otherwise. It is powerful stuff and almost impossible for you to break alone. We can help.



> If I divorce my wife I know I need to be completely honest about the reasons (including the affair).


Yes you do



> If I stop the relationship with the emotional affair, I would greatly prefer NOT to share this truth with the wife. If I am to stay married, I feel this burden of guilt must stay with me until the day I die. If I come clean about this affair (and beg my wife to forgive me), it would probably even be more emotionally devastating than if I just divorced.


The burden is there to stay regardless of what happens now. You did this. You are responsible and you must and will wear the consequences. Your wife has a right to know. If you do not tell her there is no opportunity for forgiveness and no honesty.



> Either way it goes, what I want to do is live an HONEST life. Either with who I believe is the love of my life, or my wife. I'm sick of the lies.


I am sure you are. An affair is emotionally exhausting and breaks every internal boundary that a man likes you sets himself. 

Have you slept with her? Had sex?



> There was a small amount of excitement with the sneaking around bit, but seriously... in the end that aspect is really way too stressful to be fully enjoyable. A full-time 24/7 relationship (on EITHER account) would be much more rewarding than 2 halves


.

You may not have this option. The mistake you are making is that you believe that you have a choice to stay married now. You are assuming that your life can go back to how it was. This is not the case. We can help you, but you have to see. 

You have taken an express train to a hell of your own making and the only way back is to walk. 
I am not religious nor do I have faith, but in the bible which is a book that has endured for a long time, adultery is mentioned twice in the top ten "Do Not".
_Don't do it.
Don't even think about it._

It says you go to hell. Well you don't have to wait untiil you die Richard. Your right there.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl. She works. We live in California.


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## FiguringThingsOut (Aug 10, 2012)

*fresh start. My typing on a touch smart phone keyboard sucks! Sorry!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

ing: yes, the OW and i have had both a physical and emotional relationship. the physical one was off & on. the emotional one was pretty much constant.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Darn it... why couldn't I just get good sollid pros vs. cons instead of all cons?


Can you maybe give us an example of what you would consider a good solid pro would be?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

regarding the OW...

we both have stated it would be pointless to ruin 2 marriages (and reak up 2 sets of families) just for the sake of running into another failure. we both would not go into this with the mindset of "just to fail again" (or even "settle" again like we did before).

i also feel my OW and myself have a lot more PATIENCE for each other (than our spouses) because of the intense longing & strong emotional bond se feel for each other. if we felt this way for our spouses, we would never have even fallen into this relationship in the first place.

i'm not 100% certain divorcing my wife is the right answer. all i can tell you is the relationship between my wife and i was based on love but also immaturity. the premature URGENCY (of the time) to remain faithful BF/GF in our early teens. BAD idea. the best way to offer a full & complete MATURE relationship is to have enough grounded experience (including premarital sex - which is an issue i'm sure this board is drastically against) to offer a more complete (and richer) form of one's SELF to the other.

i have learned that within the first 6 months - 1 year is where most of the "grooming" occurs in a relationship. the dos vs. don'ts. the "shaping" & "melding" of personality into a new combo. you can take several ingredients of a savory dish, but each one independently creates a distinctively different "combo" from one set to the next.

i have a lot more wisdom and maturity to offer (someone new) at the age of 40 than i did at the age of 20. i'm more skilled and adept as a lover. i'm also more emotionally "dialed in" to what the needs most females (not being a sexist) require.

during the first 6months - 1 year is where the relationship really bonds most. that's where the traditions become the norm. my wife and i set our "patterns" at a very young... immature early age. it's very hard to break from some of those patterns, but we have succeeded on some of them. i'm also not saying the relationship between my wife and i is completely devoid of LOVE. there is love there to some degree. it just isn't anywhere near the same level as with this other person (even at our best).

while i haven't made my decision, i already know that i will not stay in the marriage i am in without making some drastic (positive) changes. i cannot (and will not) continue to allow the cage to get "rattled" (only to revert & settle back as usual). i also know i am at a point where if i stay in the marriage i will remain faithful and true to it (even if it means constantly working at it) for the rest of the relationship. i'm either going "all-in" with the marriage or i'm going "all-in" with the new relationship. i cannot live in limbo anymore.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> i'm not 100% certain divorcing my wife is the right answer.


Not for you, Richard. But a divorce may be the right answer for your wife.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

TBT: was actually hoping others (with this kind of experience) could share a "pro" with me. obviously... with such self-righteous patrons as this NOBODY on this bulletin board could even possibly relate to what i'm going through.

i guess for that to happen it would require someone else that's an evil sinner to come forward and speak their mind. and even if there was such a person here, i highly doubt he would speak his mind or forever be ridiculed.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> chapparal: you have NO idea what i have gone through. you have NO idea the sacrifice and unselfish acts i have done my entire life. this is a specific situation that i'm asking serious help on. get off your judgmental holier than thou pedestal.


We have all sacrificed for our families. What you are contemplating will wipe out ALL you good deeds. If you will do this to your own family what would you do to someone you don't love. Oh yeah, we see what your willing to do to the other family too.

I've been around quite a bit longer than you. I have seen more tragedy than you can imagine. And you're damned right I am judging you. And you come up short. And pathetic.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

My husband did this with his first wife and his new marriage was so awful he had to end up divorcing her as well.

I honestly think that you should stick with your family. You could always tell your wife about your 4 year affair and see how she handles it. She may surprise you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> chapparal: you have NO idea what i have gone through. you have NO idea the sacrifice and unselfish acts i have done my entire life. this is a specific situation that i'm asking serious help on. get off your judgmental holier than thou pedestal.


Richard, people here are trying to help you. Really.

I think you seem to resent the somewhat hard advice you have been given.

Please do keep in mind that this forum of Talk About Marriage is called Coping With Infidelity, and that, therefore, the answers you will get are liable to have come from people who have coped with infidelity. Often from their formerly loving spouse, sometimes their own infidelity.

Nobody here is being holier than thou, or on a pedestal.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

it's irrelevant if my wife divorces me or if i divorce my wife. but i know everyone on this board will give high-5's and cheers if they heard the news my wife divorces me.

i will probably leave this post up for a day in hopes for some more constructive input may follow. otherwise, it looks like i will probably need to speak with a professional marriage counsellor that has a better skill-set that is unbiasly trained in such matters.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> regarding the OW...
> 
> i also feel my OW and myself have a lot more PATIENCE for each other (than our spouses) because of the intense longing & strong emotional bond se feel for each other. if we felt this way for our spouses, we would never have even fallen into this relationship in the first place.



That sounds like a bit of a justification..




RichardCollier said:


> i'm not 100% certain divorcing my wife is the right answer. all i can tell you is the relationship between my wife and i was based on love but also immaturity. the premature URGENCY (of the time) to remain faithful BF/GF in our early teens. BAD idea. the best way to offer a full & complete MATURE relationship is to have enough grounded experience (including premarital sex - which is an issue i'm sure this board is drastically against) to offer a more complete (and richer) form of one's SELF to the other.



Ok...but is your W cheating just because you both decided to be faithful at an early age? She was there too. She could justify using the same logic. Would you say that it would be justified if she left you for that same reason?




RichardCollier said:


> i have a lot more wisdom and maturity to offer (someone new) at the age of 40 than i did at the age of 20. i'm more skilled and adept as a lover. i'm also more emotionally "dialed in" to what the needs most females (not being a sexist) require.



Doesn't your W deserve to have you show her this "new you"? She has spent many years with you and given you children/been faithful..why does "someone new" deserve this more than your W?




RichardCollier said:


> during the first 6months - 1 year is where the relationship really bonds most. that's where the traditions become the norm. my wife and i set our "patterns" at a very young... immature early age. it's very hard to break from some of those patterns, but we have succeeded on some of them. i'm also not saying the relationship between my wife and i is completely devoid of LOVE. there is love there to some degree. it just isn't anywhere near the same level as with this other person (even at our best).


Maybe because you didn't meet your W while you were married?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> TBT: was actually hoping others (with this kind of experience) could share a "pro" with me. obviously... with such self-righteous patrons as this NOBODY on this bulletin board could even possibly relate to what i'm going through.
> 
> i guess for that to happen it would require someone else that's an evil sinner to come forward and speak their mind. and even if there was such a person here, i highly doubt he would speak his mind or forever be ridiculed.


Oh, I can relate to what you are going through. 

But your first post even grated on my nerves.

Your post seemed highly condescending to your faithful wife. You might not have intended it but there seemed to be an under-script of, I don't know, almost of arrogance and contempt towards your wife. 

I expect you will say: "That's not how I meant it!" But that's how it came over to me.

You have two choices. Either divorce your wife and children, or say goodbye to your AP.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm not insinuating that your wife will divorce you at all, I was insinuating the opposite. She may surprise you in that you may be forgiven and a whole new chapter of your marriage will open. The love you crave may be right there in front of you.

Believe you me, I have asked myself the same question "is this all there is? this is just so...lacking" but the answer is NO it's not all there is! Reconnecting can be so much more beautiful and satisfying than the relationship you have with the OW. You share such a deep bond with your wife as it is but you don't realize it yet. When you do realize it, it will change everything. I just hate to see someone give up before they realize it. I am not trying to bash you at all.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> it's irrelevant if my wife divorces me or if i divorce my wife. but i know everyone on this board will give high-5's and cheers if they heard the news my wife divorces me.
> 
> i will probably leave this post up for a day in hopes for some more constructive input may follow. otherwise, it looks like i will probably need to speak with a professional marriage counsellor that has a better skill-set that is unbiasly trained in such matters.


No. But we will be sad for her and hope that she comes here for the emotional support you are denying her.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

MattMatt said:


> Oh, I can relate to what you are going through.
> 
> But your first post even grated on my nerves.
> 
> ...


 I don't think he is capable of saying goodbye to her without telling his wife he cheated. he admitted early on that they both "tried" to stop it, but they couldn't. I honestly think the best thing at this point is to tell the wife, tell the kiddos, and leave. He is made is very apparent he isn't the kind of person who wants to take responsibility for his actions, at least this way he doesn't leave his BW holding the bag with two kids who don't understand why their dad left.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> i have learned that within the first 6 months - 1 year is where most of the "grooming" occurs in a relationship. the dos vs. don'ts. the "shaping" & "melding" of personality into a new combo. you can take several ingredients of a savory dish, but each one independently creates a distinctively different "combo" from one set to the next.


That's for real full engagement relationships man. You're in love with an idea. That will be much harder to shake and let go than a real flesh and bone woman. 

And the reason why you're getting all "cons" is that there aren't many people who think what you're doing is actually something that will result in the common good. At best you and this woman win. Her husband, your wife and kids lose. A lot of people that are innocent lose and you, the cause of all this, win. How can you expect people to support cheating and destruction of a marriage?

Other than boards populated by cheaters, who will tell you what you want hear because that's why they exist, I don't see you getting much luck elsewhere. 

This is coming from an atheist that, as far as it is possible to know hasn't been cheated on and isn't particularly pro-marriage. I don't think you can accuse me of a huge bias here. But i am a humanist. And i don't support inflicting pain on others for what are, basically selfish reasons. Make no mistake. The only person who will be better off will be you (and maybe not even that if things do go the way you want it to go). At least until your wife finds a new man, because she will. Plenty of guys around willing to take a woman who is good wife material.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

Also, it just so happens that I am not a wife suffering the betrayal of infidelity, I have never been cheated on. I have done the cheating.

I tell you these things because at some point I realized the pain I caused and when I realized it, it was devistating. By then, too late.


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## rigcol (Jul 24, 2012)

"It's not that I'm "chicken" to cause harm to myself. It's more that I'm afraid to cause harm to our kids, and also the unfairness to our spouses who haven't done anything overtly wrong. In our situation our spouses are good resonsible people. Yet both this OW and I completely feel we have found a companionship that is so rare and special. It is literally the situation of finding "THE ONE" - but after you have already married someone else."

I do not have experience with infidelity but at a glance can not understand how you think that your lack of integrity will not harm your children. How your selfish acts won't hurt your wife. If you indeed have found a companionship that is 'rare and special' then have the intestinal fortitude to tell your wife and move on.

"TBT: was actually hoping others (with this kind of experience) could share a "pro" with me. obviously... with such self-righteous patrons as this NOBODY on this bulletin board could even possibly relate to what i'm going through.

i guess for that to happen it would require someone else that's an evil sinner to come forward and speak their mind. and even if there was such a person here, i highly doubt he would speak his mind or forever be ridiculed. "

What you fail to realize is you're getting advice from those that have been hurt and others that have participated in EAs and PAs. People are not being self righteous by demanding you be the man of integrity you claim to be -- actions speak louder than words ... I'm surprised you can spell integrity let alone claim you're a man of it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

DawnD said:


> I don't think he is capable of saying goodbye to her without telling his wife he cheated. he admitted early on that they both "tried" to stop it, but they couldn't. I honestly think the best thing at this point is to tell the wife, tell the kiddos, and leave. He is made is very apparent he isn't the kind of person who wants to take responsibility for his actions, at least this way he doesn't leave his BW holding the bag with two kids who don't understand why their dad left.


:iagree:

He wants someone to say: _"Yes. I agree with you, Richard! You DO deserve better. Leave your wife. Your wife will have a short time of being upset, of course, but she will move on. She will find someone else, your children will not miss you. And life will be goood for everyone!" _

Life is not like that.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

hotdogs...

believe me. if i could divorce and spare my wife's feelings of the affair i totally would. divorce, in itself, is a brutal mess (at best). i was never looking forward to having a divorce. if what i experienced with this co-worker friend was just a casual fling, it would have ended as fast as it started. i know it's hard to believe (especially for the injured parties on this board) that any affair could possibly involve actual true feelings. 4 years is a long time.

congrats to those who were wise enough not to fall into this love trap. it's extremely painful to be apart from the person you are deeply in love with. it's also painful to come home feeling like a "zombie" knowing in your heart you are living a lie. maybe those who did not fall into this trap have amazing-quality relationships with their spouse (instead of a ho-hum semi/happy passionless one).

if we did not have any children, this marriage would have been over. it's only because of the kids... the custody battles... the child support payments (and believe me... 3 kids is a LOT in california so much that it's practically unaffordable unless you make $200k a year) the emotional turmoil i would face not waking up to their happy faces... as well as the constant worry of how they are doing (emotionally) are only the reasons that stopped me. if my wife and i did not have any kids i would have probably divorced within 4 weeks of the affair (long before anything physical happened).

i am not going to go into the deep-rooted issues that have gravely disappoinited me (with my relationship with my wife). but i will be the first to admit the wrong-doings i have done (with this affair) greatly outweigh the total wrong-doings she has done combined.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> He wants someone to say: _"Yes. I agree with you, Richard! You DO deserve better. Leave your wife. Your wife will have a short time of being upset, of course, but she will move on. She will find someone else, your children will not miss you. And life will be goood for everyone!" _
> 
> Life is not like that.



It is what runs across every cheater's brain that's for sure.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

maybe you should go into it. You may find more support if you do. Affairs are never justified but people are more apt to respond constructively if they know the whole story. As of now, you are painting yourself in a very sour light.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Richard, could you please explain what "wrong-doings" your wife is guilty of?

If you explain these, we might better understand your dilemma.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> He wants someone to say: _"Yes. I agree with you, Richard! You DO deserve better. Leave your wife. Your wife will have a short time of being upset, of course, but she will move on. She will find someone else, your children will not miss you. And life will be goood for everyone!" _
> 
> Life is not like that.


Unfortunately he isn't even listening to those who were previously cheaters, and hearing what they are trying to tell him. Least of all, he isn't at all concerned about what he is doing to someone else's family. Her H and kids. People he doesn't even KNOW. Nothing good can come by bringing others pain.


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## sweetpea (Jan 30, 2007)

btw- I have heard of another member on this board reconciling with her husband after her affair. They are happier now than before the affair, but she was honest with her husband about her affair. 

Relationships change and grow over time and so could your relationship with your wife if you choose to give her a chance.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sweetpea said:


> btw- I have heard of another member on this board reconciling with her husband after her affair. They are happier now than before the affair, but she was honest with her husband about her affair.
> 
> Relationships change and grow over time, and so could your relationship with your wife if you choose to give her a chance.


:iagree:

There are at least three I know of. No. Sorry, Sweetpea, make that 4. I forgot about my own experience!


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## sweetpea (Jan 30, 2007)

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> There are at least three I know of. No. Sorry, Sweetpea, make that 4. I forgot about my own experience!



Sorry! I didn't mean to leave anyone out.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

are we still being too mean for you Richard..(being serious)


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sweetpea said:


> Sorry! I didn't mean to leave anyone out.


I was joking, sweetpea! 

Though there are more reconciliations than might be thought at first. 

Maybe Richard should research several threads at random for a taste of how it looks from all sides?


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> There are at least three I know of. No. Sorry, Sweetpea, make that 4. I forgot about my own experience!


I'll see your 4 and raise you 3,because I'm pretty sure I know of at least 7 that are doing pretty good not counting the odd hiccup!


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

hotdogs... so you were the woman who cheated on your husband? i'm surprised & shocked that you could openly admit that (given how harsh this board is). plus, you are a regular member too.

i'm sure there must have been a reason why you did this. something was lacking in your marriage too? for some reason, i doubt that you entered this affair "just" for the attention (although the extra attention was nice).

for me... it was witnessing first-hand the growth & development of a very deep connection. i can assure this board with 100% certainty the LOVE and DEEP CONNECTION is 100% real. i am NOT in love with the affair. i am in love with this person.

HOWEVER...

What I do have doubts on is if the relationship would work and remain successful. Even though I feel a stronger connection with her (than anyone else), I can already see the new relationship would literally be riddled with problems.

should I take this a sign to back away and stay with the wife? obviously the right "moral" choice?

we all only have one life to live. should i not fight for a love that i believe in (and have always wanted)? should the problems be more considered a test to see if the strength & integrity can resurface again and give me the strength?

i honestly DON'T like the idea of devastating my wife or my kids (let alone her spouse). her adult 20-something kids will most likely do just fine. but i am very concerned about our 3 little ones still going through elementary school.

i can also honestly tell you that even if my wife and I "spiced things up" that it will never compete with the mutual feelings that were felt between the co-worker and myself. i only say this because the BEST part of a relationship is in the very beginning (and my wife and i are long past that now).

i understand life is all about choices. i CHOSE to ask my wife to marry me (my fault). i CHOSE to not date heavily in HS & College (my fault). i CHOSE to stay in a monagamous relationship rather than dating a variety of girls to obtain valuable experience to what my personal needs are (my fault).

unfortunately i cannot say anything severely negative about my wife that she did that could warrant a divorce or me cheating on her. even though i expressed (several times) throughout the years disappointments and shortcomings that i would like to see improved it continuously goes in 1 ear and out the other (i guess that's my fault too for picking a wife that doesn't care enough about my feelings to improve things).

obviously, if the marriage was to end it would have been BEST if it was BEFORE children and also before any physical relationship / cheating occurred. up until now i have lived a very honest life with strong integrity, yet... my emotions got the best of me and this is the position i'm currently in.

so it's a choice of living the rest of my life with the burden of guilt of cheating on my spouse (along with living the rest of my life in a mediocre relationship)

vs.

starting over with a clean slate (at least between the OW and I) but dealing with the turmoil of guilt of injuring other parties... and hoping in time the injured parties would be completely fine in the end.

but don't you see??? that's a completely fair argument, isn't it? on 1 hand, i suppose in your minds me staying home with the wife and kids means we are perfectly fine (once & after the OW and I move on in our hearts apart from each other).

but what if a love of a lifetime does get born from this affair... and what if my spouse marries a BETTER man than me? wouldn't she be so much better off as you guys have suggested? and if our kids all end up fine (and we properly raise them not to hate), everybody wins in the end (and in THAT case everything is fine).

so i have 2 scenarios... 1 in that no "injuries" occur and everything can POTENTIALLY end up "fine" (but still a lie).

or... the other relationship where there WILL be injuries that occur but hopefully the injuries are temporary and everyone ends up fine (or BETTER) than before (and... no longer living a lie).


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Your going thru new love, of course its the love of your life...and damb it you even acknowledge the AP won't work out.

You seem to be answering your own questions but can't seem to get the fact that you are what you never though you could be.

Get out of the affair.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

yes I am one who cheated. I cheated on my first husband. The reason being, is that he would lie to me all of the time. I have no patience with liars. He never cheated but he was always lying. I felt like I was entitled to have my own secrets, to be made to felt like I was worthy of more than just lies. I was 22 but that's no excuse. None of it is excusable.

I came here to seek advice for my current marriage, which is suffering from a doozy of a lie recently that uncovered more lies on my husband's part. The ****head in me wants to seek comfort in a new partner, a secret one. I want to keep my own secret. The maturity in me says that isn't right, it isn't the right way to handle anything and only causes more pain. That's why I'm here. I'm here to read about others, possibly help them or hear what they have to say.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

mattmatt & something else... actually, YEAH. it would be nice if there was a member on here that had a successful experience with what i'm contemplating - if anything to counteract the dreadful anti-bashing on the idea.

mattmatt... i am not going into the wrongdoings of my wife. let's just say that i took EXTREME offense to them. it's a pretty long laundry list. but even if you added all of them up the hurt would not equate to the hurt i would cause for leaving her for another woman.

i believe the vast majority of wives (that become injured parties) love to come across that they did "absolutely nothing wrong" and are "totally innocent" of any wrong-doings to contribute to what led to an affair to begin with.

i'm not trying to suggest my wife absorbs 50% of the blame.

that being said...

cutting through the chase i can say that OUTSIDE the emotional-relationship aspect of my wife and I we actually have an outstanding marriage. our finances & future is well planned out. we live in a decent house in a nice neighborhood (with great neighbors and friends for our kids to play with). we have done many improvements around the house to make it our own special place. we have done a really good job raising our kids to be responsible good-natured children. they love positive reinforcement and try their best to get good grades. we also share many similar interests in hobbies and things we enjoy. lol... on paper it looks like we have a pretty awesome marriage, doesn't it? but believe me... the relationship is SERIOUSLY LACKING in areas (and not just sex).

i guess it can be easily said that our FAMILY & HOME is extremely functional and well-groomed. while our relationship has greatly suffered our FAMILY & HOME works incredibly well.

on the flipside...

with my OW i feel our relationship is EXTREMELY CLOSE & TIGHT but the "family" & home would be total insanity chaos. And trust me... the love and closeness is NOT a fantasy. But the notion that "everything will be fine" is (and i'm aware of that - obviously).

and to mattmatt (or whoever asked)... the harshness of the responses has toned down considerably (thank you). sorry if my initial email sounded arrogant. i just try to be elaborate and how i feel things. it wasn't to "gloat" or seek "justification". the way i described my initial paragraph is exactly how my emotional state is feeling... to a tee.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Your wife's, Matt, was probably the only that was as premeditated.


Well, yes... or the only person honest enough to say in advance. And, yes, being told in advance did actually help me. Bless her heart, she did her best to prepare me with her warning and then she did her best to help me get through what was a dreadfully painful time for me.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm curious Richard, does your wife know that the relationship has suffered? Does she know how you feel at all or how you have been feeling? YOu may have said this but I didn't see it. Sorry in advance if you did.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> mattmatt & something else... actually, YEAH. it would be nice if there was a member on here that had a successful experience with what i'm contemplating - if anything to counteract the dreadful anti-bashing on the idea.
> 
> mattmatt... i am not going into the wrongdoings of my wife. let's just say that i took EXTREME offense to them. it's a pretty long laundry list. but even if you added all of them up the hurt would not equate to the hurt i would cause for leaving her for another woman.
> 
> ...


Richard, it is quite possible that you are blameshifting. It's common to nearly everyone in an affair. They can maximise the hurts and bad things their spouse did/does and then sometimes minimise the good things.

They almost all say that the love they feel for their AP is by far and away the best love they have ever felt, and so on...


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Richard...my H's father left my mother in law years ago for his OW for whatever feelings of detachment he felt from her. Years later he is on the move, lonely and continually cannot hold a relationship. He is a good man and all...but nothing came out of his A. And now he's much older. More tired, and unhappy. 
To boot, my mother in law, since my father in law left, has been with a man that hates my H just because he is his father's son. Has completely torn my H's mother away from him. and has now brainwashed her. We never see her.

So the moral of the story is. There is no moral.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Richard, sincerely, and taking your posts in earnest, can you distill any of this into a few concise questions or statements of where you are and what guidance you are looking for?


HARKEN BANKS: Sorry it took so long for me to respond. What I'm looking for is honest UNBIASED help on both sides of the fence.

It seems that everyone is totally against divorcing (regardless of the situation). I know there are infrequent times when making this choice is in the best interest for everyone. It may not seem that way initially, but down-the-line worked out for the best.

I suppose the vast majority of cases (when there's an affair involved), it's a huge mistake to leave the wife & kids for this other woman (that phrase "you don't know what you've got until it's gone").

But you know... the same holds true for the love of your life too!

It seems like most everyone here puts everything & black & white (always & never)... with a strong heavy slant towards NEVER.

But reality is the world works in shades of grey (and I'm not just talking 50 shades). There ARE cases when divorce is the best decision. And there ARE cases when counseling is the best decision. Many of the members here like to pompously come across laying the law like they know ALL the ins, outs, & nuances to what is going on with my individual specific case.

They immediately judge me as being "another one of THOSE cheating bastdards". They make assumptions without knowing the whole story.

But anyway, that's pretty much it. Just looking for advice on what I should do.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

MattMatt...

I suppose (in order for me to psychologically cope) that SOME amount of "blameshifting" has occured in me.

But if that is going on, it would be specifically in minimising the good aspects of my relationship with my wife. One of my problems is I have a "vault" where I store all the negative experiences with my S.O. I've had that even before the O.W.

If I was to honestly assess myself, I would say:

I am probably significantly UNDERESTIMATING the good between wife and I.

I am probably slightly OVERESTIMATING the bad between wife and I.

I am NOT overestimating the emotional feelings I have between OW and I, but probably am overestimating the chances of success (and underestimating the difficulty of the problems we would face).

Does that help?


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

I think what the hard part for many on here to digest is that you DON'T see yourself as a cheating bastard. There is no "whole story" in these situations it's just one big horrible decision regardless of what drove you there.
I was a cheating **** and now you are a cheating bastard and we suck because of what we did/do. Pretty much the bottom line. 

Until you see yourself in this particular way, you may not even remain faithful in your new relationship. I know that if I had never had that moment of clarity, the insane guilt I felt, I would still be cheating. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't your wife's fault or love's fault or your OW's fault...it's yours! You have issues within yourself that need tending to before you can embark on any further endeavors. Seriously.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Also...

Doesn't it seem likely that it's POSSIBLE that I may have married the wrong person? High School sweethearts in a 10 year BF/GF relationship before finally marrying doesn't really seem like a "sweep you off your feet" type connection, does it?

While I'm not saying an affair is right, I often wonder if the greater mistake I made was marrying my wife in the first place.

I don't know which is worse... having a wife that's very helpful in keeping a functional house (but lacking a strong passionate connection with hubby) vs. having a strong intimate connection (but chaotic home & atmosphere).

What's wrong with having VERY functional house & atmosphere and a 10+ emotional connection with the wife? Now THAT is a marriage worth having.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> MattMatt...
> 
> I suppose (in order for me to psychologically cope) that SOME amount of "blameshifting" has occured in me.
> 
> ...


Oh, yes. You are following the so-called 'cheater's script' remarkably closely.

(from "Love my spouse, but no longer in love with them" to "the love i feel for my AP is of a much higher order than that I felt for my spouse.")


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> HARKEN BANKS: Sorry it took so long for me to respond. What I'm looking for is honest UNBIASED help on both sides of the fence.
> 
> It seems that everyone is totally against divorcing (regardless of the situation). I know there are infrequent times when making this choice is in the best interest for everyone. It may not seem that way initially, but down-the-line worked out for the best.
> 
> ...



You're probably just going to ignore this....but...

I don't put my thoughts into the fact that you are cheating. I don't think you suck as a human being. I put my thoughts into that fact that you are being somewhat a coward and have not seemed to see the full effect of what you are doing. You do not seem to have full remorse. I have been through these things too in my life. We all make mistakes. We all have lied or done something in our lives to make ourselves out to be crapheads. 

We don't hate you, we hate what you are doing. Not only to your W and kids, but to yourself. You have to see that we are trying to give you a kick in the a** 

And yes, I am for marriage. I believe in going through ups and downs. Having boring times and happy times, making mistakes. You should see the crap me and my H have put each other through. It's ridiculous. But that's life.


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

My H had an affair, about 2 years in total. He left our 5 kids & myself for the OW, even though they never lived together.
In the end, we reconciled. It was not easy, but that was 10 years or so ago. He now says he is glad he did not go ahead with the divorce as it would have been a disaster. We did not reconcile with the same attitudes or actions as previously. A reconciled marriage needs to be like a completley new relationship to survive. There is one successful reconciliation story for you.

No matter which way you go, there will be fallout. If you choose your wife, you need to be honest & tell her of the affair. She may chose to stay, she may chose to go. If she does, then go after the OW. If she choses to stay, you MUST cease all contact with the OW, change jobs, maybe even leave town. 
You may decide to divorce your wife to move on with the OW. This may work for you, it may not. Just because it worked for someone else does not mean the same will happen for you.
In the end, you may find yourself without either woman, this has happened to others as well.

You have recognised you cannot continue as you are, so you have to make a choice, it has to be your choice & we on TAM cannot make this choice for you. Sorry man, but that is just the hard way of life. We make choices, we own the consequences.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Richard, England Dan and John Ford Coley is one of my all-time favorite duos. In fact, my favorite song of all time is 'Love is the Answer'.

They also made another song that, while less that 2.5 minutes long, sums up your situation. It's called 'Sad to Belong to Someone Else' and here are the lyrics:

_Met you on a springtime day
You were mindin your life
And I was mindin mine, too

Lady when you looked my way
*I had a strange sensation*
And, darlin thats when I knew...

That it's sad to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along,
Yes, it's sad to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along

Oh, I wake up in the night
And I reach beside me
Hopin you will be there

*But instead I find someone
Who believed in me when I said
I'd always care*

Oh it's sad to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along,
Yes, its sad to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along

*So I live my life in a dreamworld
For the rest of my days*
Just you and me walkin hand in hand
In a wishful memory
Oh, I guess thats all
That it will ever be.

I wish I had a time machine
I could make myself go back
Until the day I was born,
And I would live my life again
and rearrange it so that I'd be
Yours from now on

Oh it's sad to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along,
Yes, it's sad to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along

Oh, it's sad to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along,
Yes, it's said to belong to someone else
When the right one comes along_


You pointed out several times that you and your wife got involved and married too young. You're probably right. You also mentioned that you've matured over the years and can now evaluate situations using critical thinking. Well, you really only have two choices with respect to your current situation: 1) divorce your wife and kids and see if you can live happily ever after with your AP, 2) confess the affair to your wife and see if she wants to make a go of the marriage. Good luck.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

There are lots of people on this board who have cheated. There are lots of people who have heard their life time partner say almost exactly the same things as you are saying and ended up wanting to go to back to that person who loved and supported them for decades. I am doing by best not to be triggered and am finding it quiet easy since 15 months after my wife left me and the kids for a better life with her married AP she wants to come back... 

You are looking for Pros.

What are they Richard?

As far as people telling you not to Divorce. Read the posts again. There are many people saying that. You just don't like it since the advice is based in reality 
An affair relationship is not a real relationship. Full Stop. The End.

If you want a real relationship with this woman.
Divorce your wife.
Pay the far reaching and negative consequences to you, your ex wife, your children. because that is the reality of your situation.

Otherwise
Stop it. Come clean.

For now. You need to end it with the OW while you sort the mess out. If the feelings are real they will last for years, right?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

HotDog...

I have come to the realization I am a cheating bastard. But at this stage I'm ready to move on and stop living the lie (one way or the other).

I didn't come onto this board to cry "woah is me... i'm a cheating bastard... please save me". I came onto this board hoping for some good advice (on BOTH sides) that would help me make the best decision... and from THAT POINT FORWARD going back to the man I once was and know I can be.

I know people think... "once an acholic, always an acholoic"... or... "once a cheater, always a cheater".

I'm extremely confident I will NOT have this problem. Because I'm *NOT* addicted to the "variety of someone new" nor am I addicted to the "romantic excitement of sneaking around". I am very attached to this woman because of the personal connection we share. I know it's hard for people to fathom - after all... this cannot be "real", right? It's just "fantasy" blah blah blah.

Well... before the affair even started there was a close friendship that developed first before then. There was a closeness in the friendship (non-threatening at the time), but over time became threatening to our spouses.

The early stages of a relationship... the exploring... the "mirroring"... etc... the passages we go through to feel comfortable, etc. There's always that initial "awkward moment". It was crazy how quickly this passed by between the OW and I. Above all logic, it really felt like we have loved each other our whole lives. Whether you wish to call it a "drug fix" that kept getting topped off or a "deep connection", regardless of how it became the relationship manifested itself into something extraordinary that neither of us had imagined or previously experienced.

Ironically, both of us were in young & naive 10-year relationships (starting from teenage years) before marriage. We also can both admit that we "settled" with our spouses, but was still a very decent choice given the time & situation we were both in.

People... please trust me on this. This isn't just the typical "physical affair". I'm NOT interested in just having a woman on the side. The best way I can describe it is that my wife and I "blossomed" to become a rose. The OW and I "blossomed" to become a dozen boquet of roses. The single rose with the wife is in a nice vase... and can probably fit a few more roses inside. The dozen roses with the OW is tightly squeezed in a cardboard box.

I am uncertain if I could ever live an emotionally fulfilled life with my wife knowing THE LOVE OF MY LIFE i am giving up. Likewise, I am uncertain if I could deal with the guilt for the turmoil caused to both families to selfishly achieve what I want. I guess it would depend if the initial damage was fixed down-the-road after our spouses move on (and find someone better).

If the board unanimously agrees my wife and her husband both "deserve someone better", than I guess that means we really do "deserve each other". But something tells me the biting sarcasm really means... "dude... you are making a serious mistake - not just for your wife & family but for YOURSELF too" Chances are GREATLY in the favor the newer relationship will fail, etc.

All I will say is that if it did fail it would totally be because of external factors (and not us).


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Okay folks. I appreciate the honest feedback - even though it's unanimously negative. I wasn't trying to justify the affair nor was I trying to find reason to continue having an affair. I was hoping to find if there was somone else in a similar situation as I was in - feeling trapped.


I stopped reading after post #23 above, so if the situation has changed then please disregard my comments. I saw so much of myself in you and your story that reading your post made me sick. I don't know how to sugarcoat this. You are so far in the fog that you don't know which end is up. You weren't trying to justify the affair???  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah..... keep telling yourself that, because we both know that it exactly what you were trying to do. I can't honestly believe that I don't feel a certain level of compassion and understanding for you because the same Bull $hit that you tried to pass off to this very "infidelity-wise" group of people, here, came out of my mouth/keyboard just 2 months ago. I posted a link below. Just read my first two or three posts. That's all you'll need to get the gist of the situation.

If you had one drop of the integrity that you claim to have then you would tell your wife the truth and give her an opportunity to decide if she even wants to reconcile the marriage with you. I know what you're thinking.... you're thinking, "Huh, I don't know if I even want to reconcile the marriage.... after all, I've found my soul mate." Fine, then, give your wife a divorce and go be with your soul mate. Of course go in with the knowledge that you and your soul mate are both cheaters. BTW, I know you think that your kids will understand because they love you and they will just want for you to be happy, right? *WRONG!!!* My grown daughter cried and cried for days, she was devastated, disappointed and felt as though I had betrayed her as well as her father. My 22 y/o old son, who had never in his entire life had one cross word with me didn't speak to me for days and then he moved out. My 19 y/o son yelled, screamed, cursed and cried.... asked me many of the same questions that his father, my husband, had asked. He said that I had betrayed our whole family and he asked me if, while he was having a very serious surgery last year, I was thinking about the OM. The truth is, I was texting the OM in the waiting room while my son was having surgery. This same son wanted to go confront the OM.... my husband and I managed to calm him down and make him understand that no good could come from that. Can you imagine how much more guilt I would be living with now if my son had confronted the OM and something had gone terribly wrong? It makes me sick just thinking about this. 

You say that you and the OW are "in love." Well, that fabulous.... you do understand that your problems will become her problems and her problems will become your problems, and all of the carnage (i.e., family) that you've left behind will become both of your problems. Maybe your affair is the one in a million that is different.... special..... Oh, heck yeah. I know, mine was, too!  Then go, be with her.... but don't expect your wife to play the part of the understanding ex-wife and be your new best friend. It won't happen that way. I know you think it will. These are your own words: "unfortunately i cannot say anything severely negative about my wife that she did that could warrant a divorce or me cheating on her. even though i expressed (several times) throughout the years disappointments and shortcomings that i would like to see improved it continuously goes in 1 ear and out the other (i guess that's my fault too for picking a wife that doesn't care enough about my feelings to improve things)"

These were mine: "My husband is a good man, a good provider, and a good father, but he gave me very little emotional and physical intimacy throughout most of our marriage and none in the last several years...... I tried very hard to make him understand that I was dying inside from the loneliness, isolation and emptiness. I told him that I could no longer live this way and, still, he made no changes."

I looked through my first post and I could practically match my comments to yours 1:1. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/48469-how-much-detail.html#post818230

So, two months after my first post here and my husband and I are in the process of reconciling. Very long story..... just read the last few posts of the link to his thread. What a difference 2 months makes. I was angry, bitter, resentful, defiant, I felt entitled to be happy at whatever the cost, because, like you, I was a good person, with lots of integrity. Why, I had even led such a sacrificial life up to that point, that surely no one would begrudge me the right to be truly happy, right?......  I hope you see the sarcasm that I am directing at myself.

At this point I know that you are not receptive to what I'm saying. I know you think you're different. I don't think you are. 

It's never too late to start doing the right thing.... you can regain your integrity and your self-respect and be the husband and father that you committed yourself to be or divorce your wife and be with your AP, of course, she has to rip her family apart first, too. And, whether you are married to your wife or not you are still obligated to provide for your children who you say are still young. What you can't do is have it all. You can't have your clueless, trusting wife who is home taking care of your family, while you're out spending time, money, energy and affection on your girlfriend (who your children will most likely despise) and your self-respect. Grow a set, get off of the fence and act like a real man.

BTW, my husband and I are in IC and MC and we are happier, stronger, wiser, healthier and more in love than we have ever been in our lives. It hasn't been easy, nor do I expect it will be any time in the foreseeable future. But, I can say I've never been happier or felt more loved in my entire life. 


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/48667-wifes-affair-how-move-forward.html


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

CountOfMonteCristo... those are some great lyrics, man! They pretty much speak my position perfectly.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Oh.. one more thing before I leave this thread for a while..

The reason you are feeling is amazing is because YOUR WIFE is emotionally and physically financing your affair. She just doesn't know it yet.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Bellavista said:


> There is so much I could say, most of it not very nice or edifying. So I won't say it, I will leave that to the other posters.
> I will say this: divorce your wife & go live in your lala land. I am sure you & the other woman will live happily ever after.


*NOT*

Just wanted to add this because you seem so dense, you might have misunderstood the sarcasm.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> TBT: was actually hoping others (with this kind of experience) could share a "pro" with me. obviously... with such self-righteous patrons as this NOBODY on this bulletin board could even possibly relate to what i'm going through.
> 
> i guess for that to happen it would require someone else that's an evil sinner to come forward and speak their mind. and even if there was such a person here, i highly doubt he would speak his mind or forever be ridiculed.


Richard

If you spend some time here you will hear from WS's like yourself.

But they are in the minority.

HM64


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Poor Richard...

I have hitched a pair of Pink Unicorns up out back. Why don't you and Miss Missy "Get Me" just ride off into Never Never Land. 

Seriously Dude, GROW UP!

If you really knew anything about being a Man, you would understand Life is not about me me me. Quit stealing, yes that's what your are doing, from your wife and children. 

God, I really hope you are just a bored 23 year old, single, bored, message board Troll out for a ride.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> HotDog...
> I came onto this board hoping for some good advice (on BOTH sides) that would help me make the best decision...


Richard, if you're the rational thinker that you profess to be then you should know that you're only going to get ONE side in a forum called 'Coping With Infidelity'.

In order for you to get the OTHER side that would give you validation you need to also visit one of the various cheater-oriented sites.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Feeling that you're in love with someone else (indeed that you've found your true soulmate) when you're committed to someone else is not a new story. We all know that. How you handle your feelings when you think this is happening is what will distinguish you as a human being. Cheating for years & leaving your wife in the dark at the very least isn't fair to her. This isn't just your decision to make. Imo your wife has every right to have an informed say in it. Whether you divorce or try to make your marriage work has to be her choice as much as yours & in order for her to make this choice, she has to know the truth. It seems inevitable to me that she will probably opt for divorce when you tell her how you feel and what you've done (maybe not..). But she appears to have been a committed spouse throughout your marriage & should be afforded the opportunity to make such an important decision for herself.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

And Richard,

You could have had that bouquet with your wife too! But not when you give one rose to your wife and the other 11 to the other woman.

Love does not work that way my man.

It is a shame instead of asking us for advice you cannot ask your wife?

If you guys have been friends for so long I just do not see how you cannot have this conversation with her.

It will be painful but at least you can be honest for a change.

And either outcome is going to cause pain. Pain for you, pain for your wife and pain for your children.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Richard
> 
> If you spend some time here you will hear from WS's like yourself.
> 
> ...


Yes, he will..... but he might be surprised at what some of them have to say!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> It seems that everyone is totally against divorcing (regardless of the situation). I know there are infrequent times when making this choice is in the best interest for everyone. It may not seem that way initially, but down-the-line worked out for the best.


You are wrong if you think that everyone here (or even most) against divorce regardless of the situation. I have been divorced. Others here are as well. People who come here are often told by members that divorce is probably their only option. This is usually in cases of physical and emotional abuse and other very bad situations.

People who are advising you to work on you marriage are not doing it out of care for you, not judgment. It’s not out of religious conviction either r(except maybe one or two cases). We are telling you this because we know that you have a much better chance of repairing your marriage than having this affair turn into something good and permanent after divorce. 

As I mentioned before, statistically only 3% of affairs turn into anything permanent. They die pretty quick deaths after the marriages end. Are you a gambler?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EmptyInside.... HOLY **** girl. Your post scared the crap out of me! In more ways than one!!!! First of all... your screenname is *EXACTLY* the way I feel. Totally empty inside. Like a zombie "walking living dead" going through the motions at home while feeling completely alive with the O.W.

I am an analysis-paralysis laiden thinkier. I think, and overthink, and triple overthink before making a move. But once I make a move I'm always confident and set with the decision.

For some reason, this relationship with the OW has been very flip-floppish. I file papers to divorce/separate with my wife. I can't go through. I move out of the house a year later. I can't go through and move back home. Keep in mind, my wife has no idea there is another party involved (but maybe deep down she does).

You can see the very mean & angry posts directed at me. All I was doing was pouring my heart & soul to what I was experiencing and asking for help. This is a very tough situation.

I do realize that being in love with this other woman takes a huge toll on my marriage. There is no way I can live a happy life at home while being in love with this other woman. But please trust me on this... and I have triple & quadruple analyzed this aspect... the way the OW and I "get along" and "interact" is very different than the way my wife & I have always interacted. It's more mature. It's more playful banter. There's a lot of fun back-and-forth talking with witty comebacks that make us laugh. There's an incredible warmth that we feel being around each other. Now granted, over the years of living as husband and wife together the warm fuzzies fade (I know that). But what I am also certain of is that the feelings I have experienced with this OW are stronger and more intense than I have ever experienced with anyone else (wife included).

I'm not saying this for "justifcation for the affair". I am saying this for potential justifaction for a scary divorce. As I said, I'm not 100% sure divorce is the right answer. I can already sense this new relationship will be riddled & RIDDLED with problems! These are aftermath & environmental ones. But I am 100% certain the love we have is sincere, real, and very special (otherwise... neither of us would even consider divorcing).

This is not new to society. Obviously there are fundamental reasons why people cheat. And there are other fundamental reasons why people divorce (even if for another person). One thing that has held me back was that I do not want to take this other person out of one relationship only to put her in another one that is riddled with problems, financial dispair, and who knows what other turmoil unless all of these issues were SOLVABLE.

I don't enjoy cheating behind my wife's back. I don't like going home to her pretending to be happy while I'm secretly planning to escape. The thought of letting the love of my life go to be "true & faithful" to the wife is honorable, but equally devastating to the broken-hearted (including me). It's hard to imagine living a mediocre life with the spouse (SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE is exactly where we are).

EmptyInside... if you don't mind I would LOVE to have a phone-to-phone conversation with you about this. You sound sincere, and a good heart-to-heart would proably be extremely helpful to me - only because you seem to have been in the same exact boat I was in.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

emptyside: if you are comfortable with that, you can pm me.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

KanDo: I have felt like a dense idiot for nearly 4 years, so nothing phases me now.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Everyone else: Coming clean vs. Not (if I choose to stay and try to work things out). Everything I have read tells me that NOTHING is the same after an affair is discovered. I personally think the odds of reconciling after such a revelation would be far less than things working out with the OW. The emotional hurt would be devastating. And while I agree she should have the "right to know", I honestly don't think it would be in either party's interest to do that.

I know that isn't the "morally correct" path to take, but if the other relationship completely ends attempts can still be made to try to improve things at home. If a nuclear bomb was heading your way and your home (with wife & kids) were at ground zero... and you knew exactly when the bomb was coming would you share the news on the time or allow them some blissful ignorance?

I actually feel the only 2 choices I have are to come clean with the wife and file for divorce. Or, cut the relationship clean with the OW (even though trying to cut it clean failed a few times before). It's not about "me" (or "us") anymore at that point, but remaining firmly planted on that stance for the sake of the family. I would live the rest of my life with a guilty secret that can never get off my chest, but my wife's feelings would be spared.

I don't think option 3 (breakiing up with OW and coming clean with the wife) is the best choice for anyone. It seems to me it's either come clean (and leave) or completely stop (and stay).


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Richard,

Please don't pull the people are attacking me, I just want to talk card. The reality is. You have for 4 years cheated on your wife and children in a heinous selfish way. You cannot expect support or kindness for choosing to do that. It's not some abstract idea, it is a explicit choice you made to trade your children's family and yor wife's soul for your having sex with this married woman.

It's neither magic nor uncontrolled circumstance that cause you yo choose to cheat, it is 100% you choosing to go there. Just like the guy who steals money from his job, you chose to steal hope, love, and trust from your wife and children.

You know what, there a literally thousands of woman you could be having this romance with. It's selfdelusion and ignorance to think the 
OW is your one true soul mate. No such thing. She's just a female you respond to. So is your wife, the difference is you made a vow to your wife, you fathered kids with her, and you had sex with the OW.

By turning your back on your wife and children you are breaking your vow. If you where an honorable man that would stop you right there. 

Ok, do you do not honor your vows, that is who you are. Someone who chooses to sell their children's future for your own pleasure. Ok, got it, that's what we are working with here.

Since you are not interested in being the father who can teach them wrong fom right, you can at least tell your wife what she is married to and give her very very favorable terms in the divorce. This will enable her to both raise the children in a good environment and seek out a good partner to be with for her. The last four years may have been a complete deception upon her, but she still has the rest of her life to live once she get over the time wasted in this current marriage.

OR 

You could dump OW, be a god person and honor your vows and children and do the right and honest thing.

It quite honestly is that simple.

The reason why you don't do the right thing is because you choose not to. But be clear it is a deeply selfish choice.

Yes I'm trying to guilt:shock you into doing the right thing, because it us the right thing. Rational and honorable people choose the right thing even if it isn't the selfish thing that makes them feel good.

If we only though about feeling good we woud all be coke or OxyContin addicts.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you decide to stay with your wife and do not tell her about the affair she will never know how totally broken her marriage is. She will never have a chance to realilze this and work to fix it, to make it a passionate marriage... a new marriage. So you would be just letting her go on as she is, thinking all is ok. And you will hold it against her forever for your less than perfect marriage. 

How fair is that?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> I don't think option 3 (breakiing up with OW and coming clean with the wife) is the best choice for anyone. It seems to me it's either come clean (and leave) or completely stop (and stay).


Because that would require you taking responsibility without having someone there to nurse your wounds when the fallout comes. That is the best choice for your wife, OP. She deserves to know the truth, and if she should decide to try to R with you, she deserves to sit in with a marriage counselor having the WHOLE truth of her marriage, not just what you think SHE needs to do to make it better for YOU.

Why did your attempt to cut contact fail with the OW the other times? Because you two had no reason to stop. Your SO's weren't hurting and checking. So you just kept going.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

HappyMan64...

I personally find it very unlikely that my wife could reach the intimate connection I've discovered with the OW. No doubt things could get way better than they are now, but nowhere near the same. In terms of THIS aspect, your heart definitely tells you the truth.

I think the problem with post-affair marriages is the turmoil from the aftermath of the breakup. Like another poster stated... 10% chance of lasting 3 years. And another 10% chance beyond that. That's like... a 1% chance of success (although, in reality it's probably 3%-5%).

I am actually very confident in the closeness & intimacy part that I feel with the OW. That's all good. I am more nervous about the turmoil & aftermath taking its toll. Assuming the other (injured parties) successfully move on, there's still the terrible toll of the aftermath. My problems become hers. Her problems become mine. And the aftermath problems become BOTH of ours (that was a GREAT post EmptyInside), and so true.

It's because of all the external crap that I fear the relationship would fail. Regardless, you guys make it sound so easy to simply let a person you are so deeply in love with go. It's not uncommon for anyone who feels so desperately in love to try to do whatever it takes to be with that person. So even if you actually think staying with the wife is the right choice, I guess you just choose to "ignore" your feelings and hope they go away over time?

Well, I've also heard numerous stories of people that chose that path and years & decades later... still feeling some regret they didn't take the chance on "the one that got away", and how they still sometimes think of them and miss them. Obviously not to the level & extreme when it's in-your-face like I'm experiencing today (I'm sure that fades over time).

I don't argue that it makes sense to try to work things out with the wife. In NORMAL circumstances, people marry each other because they have felt a lot of passion for each other and chose the person that was best-suited for them. I was young & naive and feel I settled by choosing a person that was "best-suited" but one that we both did not necessarily feel immense mutual passion for. Knowing this, does that make a difference?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Have you even stopped to think that once your wife is told about your affair, she won't want you?? Honestly, thats a real possibility.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

This must be my night to quote great storytellers. I'm thinking this one better describes your situation. It was written over 2500 years ago by a Greek slave named Aesop:
*
The Dog and His Reflection*

A Dog, to whom the butcher had thrown a bone, was hurrying home with his prize as fast as he could go. As he crossed a narrow footbridge, he happened to look down and saw himself reflected in the quiet water as if in a mirror. But the greedy Dog thought he saw a real Dog carrying a bone much bigger than his own.

If he had stopped to think he would have known better. But instead of thinking, he dropped his bone and sprang at the Dog in the river, only to find himself swimming for dear life to reach the shore. At last he managed to scramble out, and as he stood sadly thinking about the good bone he had lost, he realized what a stupid Dog he had been.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

OP,

Why don't you read alittle about the success of affair partners who leave their marriages to be together. They all thought they had found their soulmates as well. It seems none of us can save you from yourself. Well, have at it. Please divorce your wife and move on to a state of bliss with the OW. Certainly your wife will be better off and reality may set in for you and you'll grow up.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You know what, you had no problem first loving your wife and family and then ditching them for the OW, it really shouldn't be that hard to ditch the OW for your family.

Which would you save from a fire, your kids or the OW? If you said kids, then why are you dumping them in fire now?

Come on, are you really going to ditch your kids so you can get sex from the OW?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Richard, you think and over-analyze too damn much.

Of course, there's going to be fallout from your infidelity. Your wife might just take you to the cleaners. You and the OW could end up living in a double wide in Fontucky, CA. But this is the price you could pay for your deception.

You remind me of people who have great ideas and are afraid to take a chance on implementing them (only to see others succeed with the same ideas.)

Do something already! Go and be blissfully happy with the OW or tell your wife and hope she doesn't divorce you. I'm not a religious man, but I remember somewhere in the New Testament where Jesus says that he'd prefer for you to be hot or cold about him and not lukewarm because he will spit you out. YOU ARE BEING LUKEWARM (AND COWARDLY.)


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD... (& Shaggy)...

As I said before, this relationship was not just a sex with a "co-worker fling". We both built a very intense emotional relationship from it. Yes, it was inappropriate. No relationship should have happened this way. But it did.

If it was "just sex", it would have been easy to stop the affair. If we felt just "casual love" toward each other it would have been relatively easy to stop the affair. But what do you do if you BOTH are not only deeply in love but mutually feel the other person is the love of your life?? When it comes to just walking away, easier said than done.

My wife does know the marriage was in serious trouble (just not to the extent). I moved out of the house a couple years ago (but moved back home). I've also expressed several times areas where I am unhappy. Like clockwork, things temporarily improve only to revert back to the norm. I'm not going into all the problems I resent my wife for, but I will say she has made some strides in improving things this past year.

Yes, DawnD, you are correct. The sig. other was not hurting & checking up on us which allowed us a "window" to continue our relationship. The main reason why it continued is that neither of us really wanted our relationship to stop. Even when we tried a few times before, we really didn't "want" to (we just gave it a try because we felt we "had" to).

The difference between then and now is that I can no longer live this way in limbo. It's taken a toll on my emotional and physical health. I've had anxiety attacks. I got so depressed I didn't want to climb out of bed. It's awful. There's a lot of guilt I feel from "****ting" on my family. But at the same token staying in the family feels like a lie when all I want is to be with someone else.

The reason why I came to this board is that I am now (finally) ready... after 4 years to **** (or get off the pot). I appreciate all of the advice (even the negative ones). But I know for certain I am ready to live an honest faithful life one way or another. I cannot live in limbo anymore, and I am done even if it means losing my wife & kids or if it means losing the person I currently love the most.


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

Richard, go back & read all of your posts. With open eyes. You are seeking permission to leave your family for the OW. You continually say that you will not have the same passion that you have with your wife that you have with the OW. You claim that the ONLY reason a long term relationship with the OW would fail is due to external (ie family) pressures.
Please be honest with yourself, in your mind, is your marriage over?


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Sheesh, just divorce your wife and ride off into the sunset with your GF already.

There's no magical path that will minimize the amount of pain dealt to all parties, no secret solution that will create a victim-less exit plan for you. It's gonna be a sh!t sandwich either way, so freakin' man up one way or the other. All parties involved are already incredibly unhappy, so why not finalize everything so that at least all parties can begin the healing process.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> My wife does know the marriage was in serious trouble (just not to the extent). I moved out of the house a couple years ago (but moved back home). I've also expressed several times areas where I am unhappy. Like clockwork, things temporarily improve only to revert back to the norm.


So may I ask, why in the world do you think you are even coming close to meeting your WIFE'S needs? Have you even stopped to think about that? About the fact that she doesn't have that passion with you because you aren't doing what SHE needs? 

I have a love/hate relationship with this part I am going to say. It can amaze me that someone who is cheating can completely forget about the fact that they are in fact neglecting their spouse. They then use the fact their spouse isn't meeting their needs as a reason to cheat. YOU ARE NOT MEETING HER NEEDS EITHER.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If you are ready to do the honorable right thing why do you keep debating with us and making excuses?

Do you thing Mac Garthur debated and made excuses when he has to win a battle? Nope, he did the right and honorable thing which made him a great man.

It all comes down to choice. If it was easy anyone could do it and hold their head high knowing they were a good person.

Being good isn't always the easy personally rewarding path. More often it is outpr love for others that rewards us as we make the right choices to help them.

You have kids who will judge you later in life on what you do now. How do you choose to be seen by them?


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## rigcol (Jul 24, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Everyone else: Coming clean vs. Not (if I choose to stay and try to work things out). Everything I have read tells me that NOTHING is the same after an affair is discovered. I personally think the odds of reconciling after such a revelation would be far less than things working out with the OW. The emotional hurt would be devastating. And while I agree she should have the "right to know", I honestly don't think it would be in either party's interest to do that.
> 
> I know that isn't the "morally correct" path to take, but if the other relationship completely ends attempts can still be made to try to improve things at home. If a nuclear bomb was heading your way and your home (with wife & kids) were at ground zero... and you knew exactly when the bomb was coming would you share the news on the time or allow them some blissful ignorance?
> 
> ...


Integrity?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

DawnD said:


> So may I ask, why in the world do you think you are even coming close to meeting your WIFE'S needs? Have you even stopped to think about that? About the fact that she doesn't have that passion with you because you aren't doing what SHE needs?
> 
> I have a love/hate relationship with this part I am going to say. It can amaze me that someone who is cheating can completely forget about the fact that they are in fact neglecting their spouse. They then use the fact their spouse isn't meeting their needs as a reason to cheat. YOU ARE NOT MEETING HER NEEDS EITHER.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Dawn, you are so right. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think Richard has already checked out of the marriage and just want someone to tell him it's ok to divorce his wife. So here goes:

_*Richard, for four years you have lied and cheated on your wife and kids therefore it is ok for you to divorce the aforementioned wife and kids.*_


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Shaggy... the first person I would save would be my kids (even above the wife and OW). That probably sounds like a contradiction considering how I just said there is nobody else I feel as much love for than the OW. I think saving the kids is just instinct.

I'm not entirely certain that divorcing will cause the kids to be "thrown in the fire". Keep in mind I was a child that lived through a divorce (which, BTW, I absolutely hated but still turned out fine).

While the sex was really nice with OW, believe it or not it's actually the connection & closeness that has kept me attached. Even if I ditch the OW, I find it hard to believe I can ever be as close with someone else (even my wife). But I do know if I emotionally let the OW go my relationship with my wife could improve.

And yes, if I informed my wife about the OW there's a good chance she will want a divorce. I don't want to choose the OW because my wife divorced me! I want to make the choice to fight to have her (and come clean with the affair), or make the choice to stay married (and keep the affair secret that will go to my grave). As I said before, if it wasn't for the kids I could easily go either way (stay married, or get divorced - leaning towards divorce). But with kids in the picture, I do not want my wife knowing of this affair. In all honesty, even if I chose to divorce if I could do it and spare her feelings of the 4 year affair I would.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> But with kids in the picture, I do not want my wife knowing of this affair. In all honesty, even if I chose to divorce if I could do it and spare her feelings of the 4 year affair I would.


Code = I don't want to have to face the consequences of my actions.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

:banghead: I give up. 

Goodnight, everyone.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

to RigCol...

I have said numerous times that my life WAS (past tense) filled with integrity. It was through falling in love with a co-worker that my integrity went to ****.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD... you are wrong.

I will have to LIVE with it. Burden of guilt. It's much easier on me to come clean and hope she forgives. By doing that, I feel "free & clear", and a huge chunk of my wife's heart is severely broken forever.

By choosing to live with OW, I face the consequences (and damage from fallout) there too.

By choosing wife (and her deciding she wants a divorce). And OW calls me up (who I'm desperately in love with) what do I do? Say... "okay babe! now that my wife has left me you're GOOD for me now?"

that's bullsh*t.

I guess I could deny her and "proudly" take the path of living alone. Is that the advice you have?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Shaggy... of course I want my children to be proud of me.

BellaVista... as long as I am in love with the OW, my marriage is over. The way I have lived my life the past several years with my wife, I would have said the marriage was over (regardless of the affair). The way my life has been this past year with my wife... I would say the marriage is NOT over with the feeling of going from "bad" to right around "semi-happy" again.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> DawnD... you are wrong.
> 
> I will have to LIVE with it. Burden of guilt. It's much easier on me to come clean and hope she forgives. By doing that, I feel "free & clear", and a huge chunk of my wife's heart is severely broken forever.


Yes, you say it would be much easier on you to come clean because you have not seen the fallout of your actions. Do you really think it would be EASY to watch your wife and kids have to come to terms with who you REALLY are? Not in the least bit. You will watch what your actions and decisions have done to those whom you are supposed to be protecting. You naturally assume that it is selfish to tell them, because they will suffer. What you are really trying so hard not to recognize, is that YOU will have to suffer. And if you tell your wife and she tells you to eff off, you more than likely will go running to the OW to lick your wounds. 

What is still amazing, is that you are still putting the OW's welfare above your family's. You don't want to run to her after your wife leaves you. But you ran to her and had sex with her while your wife stood there trusting you to be loyal. And you find going to her after your wife leaves you is an insult to her? What about all the insult you have inflicted on your wife by cheating?


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

We are all trying to save: 
You. 
Your wife of 20 years. 
Your children.
Your AP.
Her Children
Her Husband


Your kids will not approve.
Your wife will hate you, then blank you out. Forever.
Your friends will turn their back on you. Not quickly, but slowly over time.

But you are not important here. 

Your GF will be "that woman" and her friends will not leave them alone with their husbands. Then they will fade away, just as yours will. She will be alone, lost, bereft of the man she had children with. The one she has that real and abiding bond too. The one she will have to see all the time. He won't just cease to exist for her.

Her children are at first betrayed and angry, then a sadness at the loss of their Mother, one that can never return. Their faith in her shattered.

Your lover will lose her family, which she sees as a constant, and it will vanish before her eyes. 
She will be crippled with shame and guilt. 
She will miss her children. Every moment you are together will feel sad and tainted. In time she will cry when you make love, It costs her too much. All that sadness will be overwhelming. deep, deep sadness that will build and build, not reduce.

You really have no idea how unforgiving society is of cheating women until you see it. It never goes away for her, for you there is a proportion of men who will give you the wink and nudge, they will be your friends. 

When you fail she is left with nothing. Nothing at all. She has to face the world as the woman who left her children for a man. This will destroy her.


For her. If you love her, you will not do this to her. 

Take the pain, take the tears from her, and take it quietly and leave her life and do it because you love her. 

Do it for her.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Just out of curiosity,are you 100% sure that if you left your wife,the OW would leave her husband without trying R if it was an option for her? Would she beyond a doubt choose you?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo...

I know you think your words aren't sinking in, but believe me... I am listening closely. In order for me to make the BEST INFORMED decision I need to see *both* (positive) sides of the story. All I hear from this bulletin board is negative feedback about leaving x-spouse for new woman. Yet I had 3 personal experiences of couples who did that... 2 of which led happier lives and 1 that was left with regret.

My current state of mind is to stop the affair. Not sure about the coming clean part. I think doing that would cause more harm than good. This is a very serious decision to make, and cannot be made on just opinions who are so heavily slanted on dumping the OW. I'm sorry, but I need fair advice on both sides before making this choice.

Thank you all for your concern and help.

"Richard"


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

RichardCollier said:


> Keep in mind I was a child that lived through a divorce (which, BTW, I absolutely hated but still turned out fine).


First impression... Coward. I amend my vote, you are nothing more than a Delusional Narcissist.

Dude, your personal Crashing Tidal Wave of Fate is coming on shore. Sick...


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> My current state of mind is to stop the affair. Not sure about the coming clean part. I think doing that would cause more harm than good.


 I am being quite serious when I say your apprehension to tell the truth to your wife is for damage control. You don't want to risk telling her the truth and her leaving you if you already left the OW. Why? You are not "protecting" anyone but yourself and your OW by hiding the truth from your wife. I can see you trying to convince yourself that it is best for your wife, but you know that is a lie. The best thing for her is the truth. The best thing for YOU getting to blame her for the failing in the marriage is to lie.


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

:banghead: 
You are being given both sides.
There is no good side.
There is no easy side.
Whatever choice you make, it will cause grief to someone involved.
If you go back to your wife & don't tell her what was going on, what will change in your marriage??? Nothing, except you will have a big, burdensome secret that will come between you & your wife. Your marriage will not last, eventually you will end up separated. I am not psychic, but in this regard, it is inevitable.
Most people here are trying to help you see the light, to understand you have some very big consequences to face. 
Why not take some vacation time, go away from both women & get your head back together. do some soul searching.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

TBT: there was a time in our life that YES. Absolutely without question she would have left her husband without counseling.

ING: the OW's children are all grown adults. But she will lose her other extended family that she loves (she has lots of in-laws). She also has a son who's very "judgmental" and may despise (hopefully temporarily) her leaving her husband for me.

DawnD: I have a very big problem crawlling back to wife (and asking for forgiveness), and if she decides she would rather divorce to leave me "crawling back" to OW. Or, even if it is OW inviting to be with me it feels very cowardly to make availability to her as a "2nd choice" (even though I confided to her she is my favorite person).

I don't hate my wife. I also can't say the love is 100% dead. It's more a case of gradual drifting apart to the point of indifference over several years (this doesn't happen overnight). Neither of us did anything to try to save it. But this past year I have seen my wife "step up" to the plate to make some significant changes.

I am fairly certain that I will only come clean about the affair if I ask for divorce. Doing so will surely end the relationship. There is no way either party could consider saving a marriage after a husband who not only wants divorce but had a 4 year affair).

If I take the board's advice and stay in the marriage, it will require that I completely lose the relationship with the person I feel is the love of my life. I will not come clean about the affair. That will die with me, but at least at that point I would proudly live an honest man again taking care of my wife and family (and trying my hardest to make things the best it can be - no matter how mediocre it is).

And DawnD: Yes, I had the affair while my wife stayed honest & true, but you also don't know the lack of respect that occurred or the other things that were sorely lacking in the relationship prior. As far as I'm concerned, my wife was only "half-in" during that time. Only this past year did I see signs where she's stepping things up to also be a better wife (and not just a good mother / housekeeper).


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

RWB said:


> First impression... Coward. I amend my vote, you are nothing more than a Delusional Narcissist.
> 
> Dude, your personal Crashing Tidal Wave of Fate is coming on shore. Sick...


What is your problem RW?
By me saying my parents divorced and I turned out fine?
Keep in mind the cheating aspect has only occurred the last 4 years of my life. If you are going to judge me, why not also take the first 36 years in consideration too? If you ask me, YOU are the only narcassist here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Yet I had 3 personal experiences of couples who did that... 2 of which led happier lives and 1 that was left with regret.


Happier lives for whom?

The spouses they left? Their children? The cheating spouse and AP?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Bye, I'm otta here. You've been given much good advice but continue to seek ways to make it work for you with the OW


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Yes, I had the affair while my wife stayed honest & true, but you also don't know the lack of respect that occurred or the other things that were sorely lacking in the relationship prior. As far as I'm concerned, my wife was only "half-in" during that time. Only this past year did I see signs where she's stepping things up to also be a better wife (and not just a good mother / housekeeper).


When did your wife start to lack respect for you and do things that led to your marriage being very lacking?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD...

As I said before, if I could choose divorce and spare my wife's feelings of the affair, I definitely would (that's for HER benefit, not mine).

If I choose to stay with the family, there will never be a happy family if she is made aware of the affair. This is for MY benefit (because it keeps my wife's interaction with me as normal as possible). It is also slightly in her benefit to spare extreme hurt and anguish. It would not be in her benefit if I continue cheating. I am not keeping the info from her so I can continue to cheat. At this stage I'm doing it for damage control. While I will live the rest of my life with a guilty secret, my hope is that this feeling will fade over time if things continue to improve between my wife and I. If, down the road, things don't improve I will probably come clean and mandate we go to counseling.

If I choose to be with the OW, coming clean is probably the right thing to do (but if I could get away of sparing her this knowledge, I would).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Richard,

When you were very young and decided to have long term relationship and then marry, were there adults around you who advised you that this was not wise?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When did your wife start to lack respect for you and do things that led to your marriage being very lacking?


I believe this started after the birth of our first child. Also, we went through a home rennovation... and her attitude was severely (and unforgiveably) unpleasant then.

There were times when I would caution her about health & safety issues (go in one ear and out the other). Sure enough, 1st child got injured because she wasn't looking and needed stitches. She took it upon herself to sneak the kids to the doctors behind my back for flu shots (even though I am not a proponent of flu shots, she is). Stuff like that.

Sex would occur about 2x-3x a month. Before we married it was 3x-4x a week. I was also disappointed in our honeymoon (was more like a vacation than a honeymoon). I can go on & on.

I'm NOT saying this to justify the affair. I'm explaining why I was unhappy that possibly led to the affair happening.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Shaggy: I didn't say I am ignoring your advice. Just need to hear the positives (on BOTH sides) as well as the negatives (on BOTH sides) first. If I divorce, it will be very sad. And if I stay in the marriage, it will be very sad.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl... we married when I was in my late 20's.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> I believe this started after the birth of our first child. Also, we went through a home rennovation... and her attitude was severely (and unforgiveably) unpleasant then.
> 
> There were times when I would caution her about health & safety issues (go in one ear and out the other). Sure enough, 1st child got injured because she wasn't looking and needed stitches. She took it upon herself to sneak the kids to the doctors behind my back for flu shots (even though I am not a proponent of flu shots, she is). Stuff like that.
> 
> ...


This sounds fairly typical of a couple who is not meeting each other's needs... not the flue shot thing or the kids getting injured. But the rest of it.


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## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

Hi Richard,

I'm not here to judge you--we have all made mistakes--but I would like to comment. 

On page 4 you said "You have no idea how upsetting and stressed out I feel getting bashed and torn to shreds on this site. I had no idea this website was going to be filled with either injured parties or strong religious bias.

I honestly don't think this is the best site to get what I'm looking for, but that's not to say it wasn't worthwhile hearing the strong opinions of others."

I am not an injured party, nor and I religious, but I think it is very worthwhile here to point out that there is such a thing as objective moral right and wrong. 

Affairs are born out of the quagmire of moral relativism. Moral relativists either willfully ignore, or do not understand, the truth that it is always wrong to deliberately do anything that harms another person. It is always morally wrong to cheat or to lie. 

Understanding the difference between right and wrong is indicative of strong morality. Putting morality into practice is wisdom. 

It should become clear what the right choice is.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

On my side of things, when I felt neglected I would spend my time more invested in my hobbies. The gradual disconnect would constantly be "up the ante'd" by both sides. Soon, it was like we didn't miss (or need) the sex & intimacy anymore.

But there were also many moments of disrespect, and negative attitude that wasn't called for, etc. She was NOT a loving and affectionate wife. She took me for granted and acted "entitled" to everything like a spoiled brat. I gave her the world and got very little in return. When I encountered the 4 year affair, it felt like every emotional investment I gave was returned 10fold in spades. The engine quickly "feeded itself" and not only were we emotionally (and intimately) happy but our friendship has also grown. I do understand as 40+ year old mature adults there is a lot more wisdom and experience that benefits a new relationship over a young amateurish teenage one (and how the development / "melding" occurs within the first several months).

I understand all that. Many of these posters seem to think I was just horny 1 day and sought after my "prey" for a sexual fling. This affair occured after years... and YEARS of neglect. Trying to fix things. Things seemingly (slightly) improving only to go back to the way they were (or worse). The cage getting "rattled" again with more false hopes. You have no idea how incredibly bored I was in that relationship. I wanted out so desparately, yet... as "medicore" as it was there was also nothing terribly offensive either to feel so strongly to leave. It's living for year after year in a state of boring mediocrity with little to no passion (but also while having a NICE life in a decent house that's always clean with great neighbors and little to no financial stress, etc.).

Get it now????


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sorry you have an unhealthy marriage, I guess having an affair is one way to handle it. Sure its a hell of alot easier then filling for a D and then finding your true love.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Blimey! 181 replies and 13 pages in less than 12 hours of posting thread. That had got to be a new Olympic record! A world record! And a new personal best! 

I knew you would get a strong reaction from reading your post last night. There were about 5 replies. I didn't think it would be that good though! Well done Richard I think you should give yourself a pat on the back for that!


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

SolidSnake...

Thank you for your kind words of righteousness. I'm so happy to hear this board is filled with people with superior morality over me.

That being said, you have no idea what the human body is capable after dealing with years & years of stress. This wasn't a sudden active choice like what pants to wear. This was a slow gradual degredation of a relationship (the marriage) to the point where I just didn't care anymore. Once I reached that point, I no longer respected my wife. I no longer respected (or was emotionally invested) in the marriage.

While cheating was not the answer to the marriage problem, it was the (temporary) answer to the emotional need that was unfulfilled. But little did I know... to my complete surprise... that I fell head over heels in love with this person. During the first couple years of the affair, I felt relatively little guilt. As far as I was concerned, my wife was already emotionally "checked out" anyway.

I'm sure you would not understand my human emotional drives because your moral compass is so far above mine. Be thankful that you are in a terrific relationship with your significant other and that you would never even consider or contemplate such a devastating act.

What we need is more people like you running our country than our politicians.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Richard,

When you separated from your wife, what made you move back home? Please don't tell me it was for the kids. If you truly care about your kids you would never risk their mothers life by giving her an STD or HIV. 

Has the OW left her husband yet? What makes you so sure the OW will pull the trigger on her marriage and choose to be with you?

In order to break away from the AP, you will need to make some drastic changes. 

#1. Quit your job.
#2. Never see, talk to or communicate with your AP ever again
#3. Get IC

You need to treat your AP as an addiction. You are not addicted 
to her. You are addicted to the feelings she is giving you. 
You are not strong enough to quit this on your own or you would have already.

I truly feel sad for your wife. If you ever cared for her, you must tell her the truth or set her free. She's living a lie. Think about her for once. 

I'll predict you try to break it off with the OW and never tell your wife the truth. After a few months of giving your marriage an honest go, your AP gets vindictive for being dumped and sends an anonymous call to your wife. Your wife kicks you to the curb and files for divorce. Your wife calls the OWM and tells him what's going on. The OWM beats you to an inch of your life. Your wife and OWM bond over their mutual betrayals and you are left all alone. 

But, I could be totally wrong :rofl:


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_

Some projections:

Either way, you might regret it. Either way, you might not (in the longer run)

With OW, relatively happy in the short run, regret in the long run?
With wife, regret in the short run, relatively happy in the long run? (only if you try)

With OW, you might be happy, or eventually, unhappy.

*With wife, it seems you might only be unhappy (unless: revelation + MC, IC + patient reconciliation). You don't sound as though you will give happiness a chance, with your wife.

With OW, you might give it more than a chance (in fact, you might try VERY hard for it, because it's a costly choice you made, which you might want to validate somehow).*

Ironically, in that sense, the wrong choice might be the right choice for you.

*But if you choose divorce, please consider telling your wife the reason, so that she doesn't roil in self-blame, like a slow-boiled frog (thinking it's her fault).*

Again, just some projections.


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> On my side of things, when I felt neglected I would spend my time more invested in my hobbies. The gradual disconnect would constantly be "up the ante'd" by both sides. Soon, it was like we didn't miss (or need) the sex & intimacy anymore.
> 
> But there were also many moments of disrespect, and negative attitude that wasn't called for, etc. She was NOT a loving and affectionate wife. She took me for granted and acted "entitled" to everything like a spoiled brat. I gave her the world and got very little in return. When I encountered the 4 year affair, it felt like every emotional investment I gave was returned 10fold in spades. The engine quickly "feeded itself" and not only were we emotionally (and intimately) happy but our friendship has also grown. I do understand as 40+ year old mature adults there is a lot more wisdom and experience that benefits a new relationship over a young amateurish teenage one (and how the development / "melding" occurs within the first several months).
> 
> ...


We all got it from your first post. Most people who have been in a long term marriage have periods of feeling bored with their spouse. 

I have not seen anyone mention you were a horny predator. Perhaps I missed that. 

I honestly don't know what answers you are looking for.:scratchhead: You have received many different view points, consequences have been outlined for you, yet you keep demanding pros & cons. Stop posting, stop reacting, go back to the start & read all of the posts again.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> TBT: there was a time in our life that YES. Absolutely without question she would have left her husband without counseling.


You're saying "was",past tense.Does that mean that now,in the present,even if you left your wife that the OW might not so readily leave her husband?


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## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

Hi,

Don't know if you saw my previous post yet. 

Yes I do get what you are saying. You weren't happy in your relationship. 

I'm not trying to gang up on you, but the point is that it is morally wrong to cheat no matter how bad your relationship was. Period. We all make mistakes and we all tend to try to justify wrong actions we have committed at some point. But it is not ok to cheat just because you are bored. You have to take full responsibility for your actions. We all do. 

The truth is that there IS objective moral right and wrong in this world. The sooner we all learn that, and start taking responsibility for ourselves, the sooner we will solve all of our problems. 

As I said before, putting morality into practice is wisdom.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

The Guy... again... look up SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE and you will understand better.

Remains... Hardly an aspect to be proud of.

So... it seems the universal answer to the "right" thing I should do is:

- Breakup with OW / love of my life. Tell my wife all about the news of 4 - year affair. Roll the dice and take the chance wife doesn't divorce me (even though I actively choose wife over OW). Statistical odds indicate chance of success in marriage is probably less than OW / love of my life. I end up alone (which I'm sure you all feel I deserve) living in 400sq foot apartment paying child support. OW lives on with her hubby (since I never wanted a relationship with OW under "desparate" terms anyway). Kids are mad & devastated. Wife is hurt. Family is pissed off. Basically the same results than if I "man'd up" and divorced wife to live with S.O. The only difference is doing it YOUR way the family devastation STILL occurs (and I get "righteously punished") versus doing it MY way (where I actually live the rest of my life with a spouse who truly loves me).

I bet if the shoe was on the other foot... and if I was an "abusive bastard" that drove my wife to cheat... you all would root for me and wish the same punishment on her. In the eyes of this forum, the ONLY thing that is seen is the cheater is an "evil coward" and the other party is the "innocent victim".

And the irony of all this is I only scratched the tip of the ice berg on all the facts. Wow.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> On my side of things, when I felt neglected I would spend my time more invested in my hobbies. The gradual disconnect would constantly be "up the ante'd" by both sides. Soon, it was like we didn't miss (or need) the sex & intimacy anymore.
> 
> But there were also many moments of disrespect, and negative attitude that wasn't called for, etc. She was NOT a loving and affectionate wife. She took me for granted and acted "entitled" to everything like a spoiled brat. I gave her the world and got very little in return. When I encountered the 4 year affair, it felt like every emotional investment I gave was returned 10fold in spades. The engine quickly "feeded itself" and not only were we emotionally (and intimately) happy but our friendship has also grown. I do understand as 40+ year old mature adults there is a lot more wisdom and experience that benefits a new relationship over a young amateurish teenage one (and how the development / "melding" occurs within the first several months).
> 
> ...


So if the marriage was SOOOOO bad, did you do the honorable thing and divorce her? Demand marriage counseling? Nope. Instead you had more kids. And then you chose the easy route. You cheated. And now you don't want to feel the consequences. This is typical cake eating.

Do you seriously think we haven't heard these excuses before? You betrayed wife needs to wake up and get out of her denial.


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## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> SolidSnake...
> 
> Thank you for your kind words of righteousness. I'm so happy to hear this board is filled with people with superior morality over me.
> 
> ...


Look, please, I did make it clear that we have all make mistakes. None of us would be here if we were perfect! I do empathize with you in your position. I am not trying to say I am better than you. 

What I am saying is that the only way out is through.


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## momma2four (Aug 9, 2012)

If you decide to stay with your wife and not tell her...most likely the OW will at some point. Thats how I found out about my husband's 4 year long A. OW sent me a nice long facebook message detailing all their encounters. He decided to stay with me instead of her and I had no clue he was having an A with her in all the years they were together. Even after all that I know I tried to make things work with my H, but he is not fully transparent and wants his privacy. That will not work for me as I don't have any trust so I will be moving on without him . My 4 children (ages 5,6,8 and 10) and I will survive without him. He will always have his role as a father and it's up to him to be there for them, but I don't need him as a H.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Richard,

Sometimes I think that the real hell is right here on earth in this lifetime... and each of us creates our own hell if we are not careful. What morality is really about is avoiding creating this hell.

Right now we are discussing the hell you have created. Now the only way for you to get our of your own personal hell is for you to walk through the fires. 

What are the fires...

You tell your wife about the affair and divorce her. If the OW is interested you go live with her.

You give up the OW and stay with your wife.


Your wife will most likely find out about the affair whether or not you tell her. On some level she already knows there is something going on. So you might as well just fess up. You wife might decide to kick you to the curb, that's her choice to make.

Either route is pretty rough and you will get burned. YOu will also be dragging a lot of innocent people through this with you.

So just pick one and do it. In either case you will most likley not have the OW there for long. So the real choice is your marriage or you be alone and see what life brings you.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

SilverLining... that was hillarious (even in my current state of mind I can find humor in things). But truth be told, I not only love this other woman but I also know I am totally addicted to the feelings that she gives me. That is absolutely TRUE!!

You are also right that I *wasn't* strong enough to quit seeing the OW on my own (else, I would have done it already). We both feel a high amount of attachment. Please understand that just because this relationship was an affair doesn't mean there were not "real feelings" involved. I agree the RELATIONSHIP was void of the typical 24/7 problems a real relationship would have the feelings involved are very real. Without question.

3-4 years ago I know for certain she would have left her husband. It's because of the recent bout where I moved back home a couple years back that she started to give up on our relationship and surrender to the notion we will likely never end up together. I can't say I blame her, but all I do know is that she does still want to spend her life with me. It's just that I'm not 100% sure she has it in her to do it anymore... but I think there's a very good chance.

Regardless, I want my ALL-IN decision to who I stay with to be based on my feelings (toward either party).

By the way... what does "IC" stand for? Marriage Counseling?

Also, there is the possibility that OW moves on and continues life as normal with her husband irregardless of what happens in my life. I have very mixed feelings on both angles (leaving my wife vs. staying and telling my wife about affair vs. not).


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl.
I guess either way I'm f*cked


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> EleGirl.
> I guess either way I'm f*cked


Finally, you are starting to get it. (If you are not being sarcastic)


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Momma2Four: I actually don't believe the OW will confide with my wife. Because of what's transpired, she's partly on the fence with a preference to stay with her husband at this stage anyway.

I'm just at a point where I'm at the end of my rope and can't live this way anymore.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> By the way... what does "IC" stand for? Marriage Counseling?



IC = Individual Counseling
MC = Marriage Counseling


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> EleGirl.
> I guess either way I'm f*cked


In situations like this I think that honesty is the best policy. Just put all the facts on the table and whatever happens happens. What other choice do you really have?

There are people who advocate not telling about an affair if you stay with your spouse. The problem with that your wife is very likely to find out about it anyway... .the OW is probably the most likely person to tell her once the OW realizes that you have walked away from her.

So yes you have created your own hell. {I'm not being judgemental here... there are cases in my life where I too have created my own hell and getting out of it is not all that easy. I'm just making an observation about your situation.}


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Lord Mayhem...
How many times do I need to explain???
My marriage is *NOT* "soooooooo BBBaaaadddd".
It's, by definition, what I would describe as "SEMI-HAPPY".
Seriously, look it up. It explains a lot of what I'm (and others) are going through.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EmptyInside: Thank you for the abbrev.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Momma2Four: I actually don't believe the OW will confide with my wife. Because of what's transpired, she's partly on the fence with a preference to stay with her husband at this stage anyway.
> 
> I'm just at a point where I'm at the end of my rope and can't live this way anymore.


Ah, so the OW is not all that interested in leaving her husband for you. That does change things quite a bit.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> SolidSnake...
> 
> Thank you for your kind words of righteousness. I'm so happy to hear this board is filled with people with superior morality over me.
> 
> ...


Cheating is an act of compromised integrity. Having a compromised integrity can happen to people from all walks of life. This happens when one has poor boundaries and makes poor choices. They get their needs met by others and fall in love with them. Happens everyday. This is the most common scenario. Along with this comes history rewriting. But the biggest problem here is that it causes a marriage to spiral downwards. It cheats the marriage and the family. The emotional energy given outside of the marriage is stolen from the marriage. There is no excuse to cheat. Every day that you continue to cheat you are making this choice.

So as has been stated you need to make a choice between working on your marriage or divorcing and moving on. Living in between as a cheater is wrong IMO. It is for sure selfish and cruel. You can disagree all you want. Cheating is wrong and you have been doing this for four years. Quality people have integrity. They choose not to cheat. You do the math. Start listing the qualities of a one who cheats and you have a rather undesireable list of traits. Not anyone to be associated with and not anyone you can trust. This is not as much moral as it is pragmatic.

All else equal are people who don't cheat better human beings than those who cheat? Most certainly they are. Would you be a better person in stopping the cheating. Absolutely.

I understand EAs and I understand how one can make the poor choices to go down that road. But there is no way to cover up the continued path of a cheater.

Through all of this obfuscation and attacking of people this is really very simple. Make a choice. Then follow it through. The damage is done. What you do with this situation defines who you are. You choose.

Insulting good folks is not a very good trait either. Take that with you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well if the OW might not be interested in leaving her husband for you, why would you even consider leaving your wife for her?

Perhaps you can make a pact with the OW... you both write letters to your spouses then you mail them out together ... or email them. So that you both tell your spouses about the affair and your intention of being together at the same time? That way you both know that the other is not going to back out.

Of course one or both of you could still reconcile with your spouse, but atleast you do not leave your wife to be left holding the bag.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl...

I believe if the OW is satisfied with how things are resolved and moving on with her husband she will not go out of her way to ruin mine. Keep in mind that she feels the same way about me as I do. We both were at a position where we wanted to leave our spouses and spend our lives together. Because of the damage divorce would cause, I couldn't follow through (even though my heart seriously wanted to). A constant battle between my heart and my brain this is. I sometimes feel very depressed with losing the OW. Because of the amount of years living in a medicore passionless semi-happy marriage ironically I don't feel depressed losing someone I have very little emotional connection with.

The main thing my wife and I have in common is our children. The main thing my OW and I have in common is each other (but little else). There are addictive feelings towards the feelings the OW brings - not because it's a "renewed feeling" I haven't felt in a while but moreso because it's an intense feeling I have never felt before at all.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

> - Breakup with OW / love of my life. Tell my wife all about the news of 4 - year affair. Roll the dice and take the chance wife doesn't divorce me (even though I actively choose wife over OW). Statistical odds indicate chance of success in marriage is probably less than OW / love of my life. I end up alone (which I'm sure you all feel I deserve) living in 400sq foot apartment paying child support. OW lives on with her hubby (since I never wanted a relationship with OW under "desparate" terms anyway). Kids are mad & devastated. Wife is hurt. Family is pissed off. Basically the same results than if I "man'd up" and divorced wife to live with S.O. The only difference is doing it YOUR way the family devastation STILL occurs (and I get "righteously punished") versus doing it MY way (where I actually live the rest of my life with a spouse who truly loves me).


Er. No. What we are saying is that in all probability you will end up alone in a 400sq ft apartment paying child support. REGARDLESS of your next move.

There is 3% chance your love is real and that you will go on to a happy fulfilling life. 
There is a slightly higher chance that you will be able to salvage something out of your marriage. our wife may have checked out already, you just haven't noticed.

The reality is brutal for all concerned, we know. We see is all the time. 





> I bet if the shoe was on the other foot... and if I was an "abusive bastard" that drove my wife to cheat... you all would root for me and wish the same punishment on her. In the eyes of this forum, the ONLY thing that is seen is the cheater is an "evil coward" and the other party is the "innocent victim".


Er No. however. cheating is well, cheating. You get more than you deserve because your well, cheating. You have not mentioned abuse, therefore no discussion.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Entropy3000... Thank you for the hearfelt & honest advice. I'm at the point where I need to get off the fence and make a choice.

Riding the fence was what happened the 1st couple years. Nobody got (directly) hurt, but you are right in that both marriages were not given the full dedication it deserved to thrive. Sad to say but once you hit a point where you don't care anymore, it really doesn't matter.

Even though I'm desperately in love with OW, the attitude change in my wife this last year has given me serious pause. Before (in the past), these "subtle improvements" were always fleeting moments that went by the wayside after the dust settled. I sometimes wonder if this is another game she's playing, or if she's finally for real about it. Several months ago I emailed my wife (I NEVER email my wife - lol) some deep feelings and concerns I have over things. It was a long thoughtful letter. She said she "needed some time" to sort things through her head before responding. To this day she hasn't responded. This is her typical pattern... of pretending to be supportive (or desire to meet my needs) and choosing the "lazy way" out and passively forget something that is important to me in hopes I didn't remember.

EleGirl... I'm still torn about hurting the children. I'm also not looking forward to hurting my wife's feelings either, but would do it when necessary to live an honest life. I'm also very afraid of causing all this turmoil & damage over NOTHING... given the low % chance we probably have at successfully "living happily ever after".

One avenue to consider would be to cut our losses and just move forward with our spouses. No more lies or cheating. Fessing up to the affair is really a tough call. On 1 hand, it will be awful living for decades on end with that deep dark secret. Terrible. Think about that!!! (OTOH, it wouldn't be all that awful if the choice of divorce was made to stand by the OW but let's put that aside for now). On the flipside, if the affair is kept secret only I would live with the guilt (which will hopefully fade). I suppose if wife somehow finds out I could come clean at that point. I guess that would be better than to continuously deny.

Coming clean and asking for divorce would solve much of this anguish, but will stockpile MANY problems thereafter. Coming clean and asking to stay would also stockpile MANY problems. Letting things lie and ending the affair discreetly but with full honesty on keeping on that path is probably the lesser of the 3 evils.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your choice should exclude the OW. There is a high probability that she will not be in your life all that long anyway.

So go back and do what you should have down to start with.. decide if you want to stay married to your wife or not.

If you decide to divorce then do it and then see where things lead with the OW.

If you decide to stay, then stay and work on your marriage like your life depends on it. There is a lot of help out there for doing this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Some people advocate for not telling the spouse about the affair. They say that telling only serves to relieve your own guilt and lays the pain on your spouse.

As a person who has been cheated on many times i wonder about the wisdom of that. Would I have appreciated not knowing, avoiding the pain? I'm not sure. At least in knowing I know who I was married to and was able to make decisions based on the truth.

In both of my marriages to men who cheated.. the infidelity was not the ultimate reason for the divorce. Their lying and mistreat of me was the reason. I would have divorced them had they cheated or not. 

The problem that I see with not telling is that true intimacy is based on total transparency and openness in a marriage. If you are lying to your wife and she does not know the depth of your unhappiness, etc., how can there ever be true intimacy in your marriage?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Some people advocate for not telling the spouse about the affair. They say that telling only serves to relieve your own guilt and lays the pain on your spouse.
> 
> As a person who has been cheated on many times i wonder about the wisdom of that. Would I have appreciated not knowing, avoiding the pain? I'm not sure. At least in knowing I know who I was married to and was able to make decisions based on the truth.
> 
> ...


EleGirl... This is so true. But cummon, my wife was told (both verbally and NON verbally) for years how unsatisfied I have become. Only this past year did I see any signs of improvement.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> EleGirl... This is so true. But cummon, my wife was told (both verbally and NON verbally) for years how unsatisfied I have become. Only this past year did I see any signs of improvement.


I understand the frustration with a spouse who will not respond when you tell them clearly what you need. This is often coupled with them not telling you what is missing for them.. what they need. I get this. I've lived this. I gave up.

The reason that your wife responded this last time is that you let her know that you were dead serious, that you were going to leave. It's sad that it took that for her to start to wake up. 

But now that you are in an affair, your marriage cannot grow to it's full potential even if she became your perfect wife. Your attention is elsewhere.

There are some books that I think you would benefit from... Dr. Harley is the author of all of them.


"Surviving an Affair" and then the other 3 are linked to in my signature block below for building a passionate marriage.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Although I'm in favor of damage control, my honest opinion on what my wife's best interest pretty much lies in what happens in our future. If my wife and I work hard at rejuvenating our marriage and are living happy again I guess I could say this chapter in our lives is water under the bridge. The children and my wife would all be spared the emotional turmoil of either divorce of an angry emotionally distraught wife.

If my wife and I try to work things out, but end in divorce later I would say we should have just divorced now (or 2 years ago) and saved each other the time & headache (and is irrelevant if wife was made aware of affair or not).

If I divorce my wife to be with OW, it would probably be in her best interest to know the entire truth (including why I prefer to divorce) even though I would prefer to spare her feelings of me leaving her for another woman.

If I divorce my wife to be on my own, I could go either way (telling her about previous affair or not).

If I choose to be with my wife and if I stupidly stray again, it was absolutely in her BEST INTEREST to know all the facts before making a decision.

At least I'm aware now that having an affair is not the answer. Sitting down and being blunt with your partner is the best choice.
Getting a divorce and starting a new relationship is probably 2nd best choice (or first best if you find the love of your life). Be as it may, I have seen first-hand a couple relationships that were "soul-mate" style from start to finish after a previous marriage. It's a little cloudy if an actual physical affair was going on. I think chances are it was, but surely NOT for 4 years (maybe a few-several months). Still, it can be frustrating for the partner reminding the spouse to make changes (but nothing seriously comes about).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Richard, 

You really do over think everything don't you? Before this is over you will be in straight jacket if you keep this up.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I understand the frustration with a spouse who will not respond when you tell them clearly what you need. This is often coupled with them not telling you what is missing for them.. what they need. I get this. I've lived this. I gave up.
> 
> The reason that your wife responded this last time is that you let her know that you were dead serious, that you were going to leave. It's sad that it took that for her to start to wake up.
> 
> ...


It's crazy that it took me moving out of the house for her to change. I still am not sure if it's too late. I'm not saying so much because of her improved attitude but more because of the damage caused from this relationship.

It really is an agonizing feeling living in one place and longing & yearning to be somewhere else. Being in limbo is hell on earth.

I close my eyes and imagine my life 10 years from now... or even 3-5 years from now... and it's a total blur. I can't see anything in my future but fog.

Speaking of FOG, I also want to thank the members who cautioned me in the "trance-like" in-love state I have been feeling. I know it's so easy to have the blinders on when being under this type of influence.

Many of you think the feelings are not really genuine, but I assure you they ARE and very much so. Even if the relationship isn't completely genuine the feelings are. It has always made more sense to me to leave a marriage if it was BAD (or cannot be improved). While I don't think my "madly in love feelings" could ever resurface again with another person (including my wife), the fact is she has worked so hard and done too many good things to deserve to be divorced for another woman let alone a cheater for a husband.

The one promise I can give at this point forward is that if I stay I will make it my mission to be the very best husband and father I can be. I'm either going "all-in" with my family or "all-in" with the fantasy that will likely never work out. Chances are common sense will previal in this case.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone else who posted... well, at least the non-rude a-holes :-\


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The madly in love feeling can indeed come about again for another person... probably even your wife if the two of you work at it with the books linked to in my signature block. 

I’ve had those crazy in-love feelings before that you talk about. I’ve had them for different men at different times in my life. They tend to go away over time if the relationship is not properly nurtured.

Even in a long term marriage that has gone sour, there are ways to get those brain chemicals going. It’s the brain chemicals that have you feeling so high in your affair. And if you do the work needed you can get them flowing in your marriage as well.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sorry if I was being rude, as a betrayed I can come off a "little" bitter.

I hope you find your way and its honorable and honest


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> (hating those who fell in love while married).


Well I'll stand by my first post


_Mmm I did not have a wife who cheated for 4 years once I had one who cheated continually for 6/7 - the same thing really.

One thing I will say about you and you wont like it is that you are a cruel cruel heartless man. To your wife and children

This is a choice you have made

Add to that a compulsive liar deceiver and dishonest to the core

If I asked you if you would want to fall in love with a person like that I suspect you'd say "Who me, never not in a million years, that is a horrible nasty vindictive person I could never entertain the idea of being in love with someone like that"

Guess what ?_ 

From Entropy
Quality people have integrity. They choose not to cheat. 
Start listing the qualities of a one who cheats and you have a rather undesireable list of traits. 
Not anyone to be associated with and not anyone you can trust. This is not as much moral as it is pragmatic.

All else equal are people who don't cheat better human beings than those who cheat? 
Most certainly they are. Would you be a better person in stopping the cheating. Absolutely.

I understand EAs and I understand how one can make the poor choices to go down that road. But there is no way to cover up the continued path of a cheater.

Through all of this obfuscation and attacking of people this is really very simple. Make a choice. Then follow it through. The damage is done. What you do with this situation defines who you are. You choose.
________

You're good with words and that's what's got you through a lot of your life's scrapes - slippery smart intelligent confident but arrogant. I've met people like you but for me it's easy to see what kind of a person you really are and I said it in my first post 

I would not like to acqauint you, you're deep down not a decent honest human being. You are happy to deliver heartless death cruelty and destruction at the door of those who have shown you the most love of all and the truth is without even stopping for a second

You're dishonest at your very core. What you'll never get, for all your smartness, is how transparent you are and once all this comes out (like it will at some point) hopefully your wife and kids will treat you how you really deserve to be treated. 

I don't offer you any advice (you'd want to 'discuss' it for four years)

only.........If there's any justice in this world


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

To each is own Headspin.

I personally can care less what you think. You have no idea the pain and frustration that I have dealt with for years.... YEARS prior to the relationship I recently had.

I realize people cannot control emotions, but they can control their actions. Engaging with this affair was a willful choice of mine... but when you get to the point where you no longer value the marriage (or the relationship) as I and your x-wife had something's gotta give.

What you don't understand is the situation of a SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE. It's a marriage that is not quite "bad enough" to quit and leave outright, yet not "good enough" to be emotionally fulfilling.

I have a feeling a good portion of the long-term affairs may be surrounded in marriages that are of this nature. I urge you to research it and investigate.

As "heartless" as you think I am... believe me... as much pain & suffering I have gone through I can only imagine it's probably 1,000 times worse when for the injured party that gets dumped for someone else. I was on the verge on vacating my marriage twice. I'm not sure if your x-wife threatened to leave a couple times (or even moved out like I did). Being on either side of the situation is awful. I honestly don't understand why these things happen, but they do! Never in a million years did I imagine the same thing would happen to be (but it did).

You say I am "HAPPY" to deliver "heartless death & cruelty"??? Sorry to burst your bubble, guy, but if I was a happy camper I wouldn't have even subscribed to this board (duh). Secondly, how dare you insinuate "those who have shown me the most love of all". Every situation is different, and you have NOT lived in my shoes. Quit generalizing your personal experiences on other people.

When people get married it's all about "LOVE & ROMANCE". But when they get divorced it's like a business liquidation. 50% of marriages end in divorce, man. Your case is far from uncommon. The only comparable consolation I can express is that deep down you probably feel vulnerable and hurt and seriously longing for an opportunity to have made things right (or better) for your ex-wife so that she never left. If you had the "magic formula" to prevent her affair from happening, etc. I'm certain you would like to do whatever you could to keep the love of your life from slipping through your fingers.

Although my situation isn't as "politically correct" as yours, please understand that in my heart I truly believe this other woman *IS* the love of my life. To most injured souls on this board it's nothing but a mere "fantasy". But from my experience the relationship was inhibited by secrecy to allow it to flourish. The relationship with my wife started to go downhill years before this other experience. So many couples (myself included) seem to just go on our merry way while the relationship dissipates into nothing. Once either party reaches a point where they just don't care anymore, chances are it's too late.

I really am sorry about the situation you are in. It's obvious you are angry, pissed off, and hurting about what happened. In my case, I'm trying my hardest to find the answers to help me do the right thing (whatever that may be). I don't expect sympathy from any of these boardmembers. But venting on this board was a very smart move of mine because it clearly showed STRONG OPINIONS on the opposite side I was looking for. Unfortunately for me, in your case Headspin your head is already spinning from your personal suffering that your input is heavily skewed toward hate & anger to those in my position. So any advice that you could have offered really isn't useful for me. But to the others that actually THOUGHT first (before writing & venting), I personally thank you for doing your due diligence in speaking the truth as you see it.

Peace,
Richard


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

p.s. Much of the haters on this board love to assume "once a cheater, always a cheater"... as if to give them peace when their spouse leaves them for someone else the same thing will happen to them. Although quite often things don't work out (and the spouse who left is begging to come back) every now & then the spouse that left states leaving the marriage was the best move they made.

Sometimes people DO marry the wrong person! Although it's very hurtful, it isn't intentional. To those who are grieving all they want is the straying spouse to STAY and WORK THINGS OUT. But do they really care if their spouse is grieving for being in an unhealthy relationship? I'm not saying that Headspin intentionally did things to make his relationship "bad" or "unhealthy" to push his Ex out the door.

If anything, the one thing I have learned tonight is that if a marriage is worth saving it's probably a FAR better idea to invest every energy possible into saving it then go through the hell & turmoil of a divorce.

My emotional state is probably just as "imbalanced" as Headspin's. All I see is how desperately I want to live my life with the person I'm in love with. My "love blinders" prevented me from seeing the destructive aftermath (to its fullest). Obviously I would only truly FEEL it if & when that was to happen... but given the very strong cautionary opinions seriously made this contemplation of mine a huge wakeup call. As much as I love this person, I don't think I have it in me to cause all of this destruction. I believe that is why I avoided following through in the first place. Considering how long I've been stretched in limbo, my heart has led me to believe the only way out of this "hell-hole" was to "man up" and divorce my wife & family. But most people state I should do the opposite.

So do I pay the price for marrying the wrong person? Or do I pay the price for this affair? Or both? I have already lived nearly 4 years in depression. I guess the question remains as to how much "cost" will be involved.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Empty Inside said:


> I stopped reading after post #23 above, so if the situation has changed then please disregard my comments. I saw so much of myself in you and your story that reading your post made me sick. I don't know how to sugarcoat this. You are so far in the fog that you don't know which end is up. You weren't trying to justify the affair???  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah..... keep telling yourself that, because we both know that it exactly what you were trying to do. I can't honestly believe that I don't feel a certain level of compassion and understanding for you because the same Bull $hit that you tried to pass off to this very "infidelity-wise" group of people, here, came out of my mouth/keyboard just 2 months ago. I posted a link below. Just read my first two or three posts. That's all you'll need to get the gist of the situation.
> 
> If you had one drop of the integrity that you claim to have then you would tell your wife the truth and give her an opportunity to decide if she even wants to reconcile the marriage with you. I know what you're thinking.... you're thinking, "Huh, I don't know if I even want to reconcile the marriage.... after all, I've found my soul mate." Fine, then, give your wife a divorce and go be with your soul mate. Of course go in with the knowledge that you and your soul mate are both cheaters. BTW, I know you think that your kids will understand because they love you and they will just want for you to be happy, right? *WRONG!!!* My grown daughter cried and cried for days, she was devastated, disappointed and felt as though I had betrayed her as well as her father. My 22 y/o old son, who had never in his entire life had one cross word with me didn't speak to me for days and then he moved out. My 19 y/o son yelled, screamed, cursed and cried.... asked me many of the same questions that his father, my husband, had asked. He said that I had betrayed our whole family and he asked me if, while he was having a very serious surgery last year, I was thinking about the OM. The truth is, I was texting the OM in the waiting room while my son was having surgery. This same son wanted to go confront the OM.... my husband and I managed to calm him down and make him understand that no good could come from that. Can you imagine how much more guilt I would be living with now if my son had confronted the OM and something had gone terribly wrong? It makes me sick just thinking about this.
> 
> ...


EI, that post was so beautiful, and so wise and heartfelt that it made me tear up a little.

If it did not make Richard tear up, well, then he is in a whole lot of trouble. And needs IC ASAP.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I got to page 8, got tired of the same stuff posted over and over again so I jumped ahead to here. My apologies if I missed something relevant.

I cheated on my wife. I've told my story a few times in here, so I'm not going to repeat the entire thing again. But at some point after cheating, I had to decide what I was going to do. Stay and try to work things out? Go? Tell my wife?

In the end, I knew my marriage was over. That's why I cheated... At that point, I was checked out and knew my wife wasn't the partner I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. So trying to work things out would have been pointless. But if I did try to work things out, the only way I would have thought it possible would have been complete honesty with her, including the affairs (there were two).

So I ended my marriage. I didn't tell her about my affairs. My rationalization for that was that it would hurt her unnecessarily, and she has enough self esteem issues already. I'm sure that part of that is pure rationalization on my part to avoid looking like a cheating ass, as opposed to protecting her from unnecessary pain, but there you go.

Now, I didn't leave to be with someone else. My affairs had both ended prior to me moving out, and I had no desires to meet with either of my affair partners after I was on my own. Obviously, if you move out of your house and in with someone else, your wife is likely to suspect there's been an affair.

In the end (20 months later), my relationship with my STBXW is amicable, and I attribute a lot of that to the fact that she didn't know I cheated on her. Because our relationship is amicable, the kids are as unscathed as possible in all this. I would suspect if my wife and I were at each others throats, the kids would be much more likely to be traumatized by this. 

For this reason alone, I'd recommend NOT telling your wife about the affair. Wait until your divorce is finalized and a "respectable" time period has passed before bringing your OW into your public life. This means not moving in together, not meeting each others familys as "daddy's friend", etc.

Your other option is to try to make your marriage work. But not the half-assed try you've done in the past. This means either you or your OW quits your job. It means NC, and handing over all your passwords, account credentials, etc. to your wife. It means telling your wife you cheated, and marriage and individual counseling as required. It will likely not be any easier or less fun than divorcing.

Oh, and I guess there's one more option... Living in limbo, waiting for the sh1t to hit the fan. And then moving on with reconciling or divorcing (unamicably). In the end, the result is the same as the other two, but you will have wasted (potentially) years of 4 adults lives while you refuse to get off the fence.

Just my $0.02...

C


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> I believe this started after the birth of our first child. Also, we went through a home rennovation... and her attitude was severely (and unforgiveably) unpleasant then.
> 
> There were times when I would caution her about health & safety issues (go in one ear and out the other). Sure enough, 1st child got injured because she wasn't looking and needed stitches. She took it upon herself to sneak the kids to the doctors behind my back for flu shots (even though I am not a proponent of flu shots, she is). Stuff like that.
> 
> ...


:wtf: One of the reasons why you justify your cheating on your wife is because she took your children to have flu shots? Seriously? That's it?

RAHHHHHH! God! That made me* so *angry!

It is from Cheater's Talk 101.

I doubt that any point you have against your wife is based on reality, as they have been distorted and magnified beyond all reason.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> Blimey! 181 replies and 13 pages in less than 12 hours of posting thread. That had got to be a new Olympic record! A world record! And a new personal best!
> 
> I knew you would get a strong reaction from reading your post last night. There were about 5 replies. I didn't think it would be that good though! Well done Richard I think you should give yourself a pat on the back for that!


Yes... Do you think he might get our British sense of cynical irony, old chap?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

By the way, Richard, how do you think your APs husband will react when he finds out?

Tears? Suicide? (It does happen) violence against his wife? Violence against you and your family?

Be prepared. It could get difficult.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> What you don't understand is the situation of a SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE.


You keep spouting this like it is some sort of holy mantra. You got that expression from books and websites that i drop on the "ignore-everything-else-feel-good-about-yourself". This is a category i mentally created for every piece of text that doesn't really help you in any way but can be used as self justification for whatever you want to do. 

There are a lot of stuff that falls into this category. These days some psychologists create names for everything because we all know that labels make people feel better. 

Typical situation i deal with everyday due to profession:

Dr. Quack
"You not horrible parents, it's just that your kid has [insert bulsh!t disorder here]"

"Mother" (biological meaning here)
"Thank you so much Dr. Quack, i can finally resume banging the neighbour with my son in the house when my husband goes for out for drugs."

Due to situations like this people miss the chance to improve themselves and makes things work. They just flee the situation and head for something that may well be worse (in the example, usually pumping the kid with drugs).

People who write these books are in it for themselves. They know that marriages can't be 100% happy all the time (many of the people who write this stuff have unstable marriages themselves, yet think nothing of offering advice). What they offer in exchange for your cash is a feel-good band-aid and some crap advice that can't be followed by normal people because we can't spend weeks dealing with the stuff. We have to work, take care of kids and we tire. 


How many people have dream marriages when everything falls into place with no lows? I sure don't know any. Is everyone in a semi-happy marriage at some point in their marriages then? And it does beg the question. Are you sure you want to be married? Because, even though you don't want to hear this, there will be a time when things will not be so dreamy with that other woman. 

People, you included, should realize that a marriage isn't a bed of roses. It will have obstacles, it will have friction and unhappiness. The thing is how you overcome it. 

It has always been this way since marriage was "invented". The curious thing is that people these days often choose to just embark in the next "great" thing. Often to find themselves terribly disappointed.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> HappyMan64...
> 
> I personally find it very unlikely that my wife could reach the intimate connection I've discovered with the OW. No doubt things could get way better than they are now, but nowhere near the same. In terms of THIS aspect, your heart definitely tells you the truth.
> 
> ...


Richard

You just reasoned away why you feel you have no passion with your wife. Because you gave it away to the OW.

Do not give me that soul mate crap. When two people meet, have an attraction, have children it usually involves passion.

In most long term marriages that passion grows between 2 spouses, the level of love and committment grows between 2 spouses.

But not when one spouse takes that passion/love and gives it to another. You have had 3 people in your marriage. You short changed not only yourself but your wife and OW of a true passionate relationship.

That is what you do not see. Because you could have that relationship with your wife, you just do not want to.

You are blind Richard. You blinded your own heart and your GF helped you do it.

What a waste of 4 years for you, your Gfand most especially your wife.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Richard, I might have mentioned this before, but I think you come over as being somewhat contemptuous of your wife, with a bit of disdain thrown in.

Is you affair some sort of revenge on your wife for not being able to follow your every whim and edict? (_"Why... she took the kids for flu shots! The nerve of her!"_)

Do you really think your AP will want to follow your every diktat? If so, is that why you love her more than you love your own wife?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

costa200 said:


> You keep spouting this like it is some sort of holy mantra. You got that expression from books and websites that i drop on the "ignore-everything-else-feel-good-about-yourself". This is a category i mentally created for every piece of text that doesn't really help you in any way but can be used as self justification for whatever you want to do.
> 
> There are a lot of stuff that falls into this category. These days some psychologists create names for everything because we all know that labels make people feel better.
> 
> ...


This type of marriage is "LOW PASSION" but also "LOW CONFLICT". I've sinced learned this type of relationship is most at risk for affairs (and divorce). Obviously (in hindsight), if either my wife or I saw this coming it's quite possible either of us would have made some changes to prevent such a thing from happening.

This isn't a case where I begrudgingly had an affair, then researched & researched to discover some "technical ailment" to cause the affair so I feel better about myself. This is a case of living several years in an unfulfilling relationship.

I suppose in most cases (to the injured party), they would likely feel nothing is wrong in the marriage... maybe totally "fulfilling" to them. Chances are ONE of the people involved (either the male or the female) feels significantly less emotionally fulifilled than then other.

Believe it or not, SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGES are actually more at risk than passionate marriages where the couples yell & scream at each other.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGES are actually more at risk than passionate marriages where the couples yell & scream at each other.


It's the first time I agree with you.
In semi-happy marriages there's no passion and the lack of passion sometimes means indifference. 
I guess in semi-happy marriages partners don't even bother to care for/yell/scream at each other.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Richard, I might have mentioned this before, but I think you come over as being somewhat contemptuous of your wife, with a bit of disdain thrown in.
> 
> Is you affair some sort of revenge on your wife for not being able to follow your every whim and edict? (_"Why... she took the kids for flu shots! The nerve of her!"_)
> 
> Do you really think your AP will want to follow your every diktat? If so, is that why you love her more than you love your own wife?


The flu shot example is just one of many cases where I felt very disappointed in the level of disrespect. I'm not saying that she needs to agree with everything I say. Disagreements can be a good thing, and positively presented poses wonderful challenges (and variety) in relationships. It's HOW the disagreements & arguments get resolved that matter most.

She should have approached me and discussed a mutual resolution rather than sneaking the kids off to the doctor take care of things "her way". She sometimes has this "mother knows best" attitude, but for every time her opinion was correct there are other moments where her opinion was not.

This was NOT a case where... "OMG... you took the kids to get a flu shot. Guess I'll have an affair now". This is more a case of a gradual chipping away at our relationship until a mole hill became a mountain, and then a chasm right under our noses. This is a gradual change over years (not weeks or months).


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> It's the first time I agree with you.
> In semi-happy marriages there's no passion and the lack of passion sometimes means indifference.
> I guess in semi-happy marriages partners don't even bother to care for/yell/scream at each other.


LOVELYGIRL!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!! Someone finally hit the nail on the head! The opposite of love is NOT hate. It's indifference. When partners don't even bother to care to "yell & scream" at each other...

Very clear example of "low passion" in OTHER facets in our relationship too.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Richard,

If you want people here to treat you repesctfully, then frankly don't throw out garbage like "@haters on this board"

That's a very dishonest technique of trying to make your detractors arguments invalid by declaring them to simply be hateful people that are out to get you.

This IS a pro marriage board. Not pro cake eating, not pro find yor happiness no matter the cost to others. Pro marriage.

When you present your quandary: be a faithful husband OR abandon my wife and kids do I can run off with the OW, you aren't going to hate, but you are not going to get any support for the affair.

It's also not hate to tell someone they need to do the moral thing.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Also Richard you should know that affairs have a way of being discovered even long after. An idle look, a found picture, a comment by a friend. A restaurant that you mention liking but your SO has never been at. 

Your wife may yet find out your second life and expose it to the world. Do don't assume this is all in your control and that you are safe.

If she were to come here looking for advice on building her marriage, I would be giving her advice on how to uncover and nail her husband if is cheating.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

I absolutely agree that "men of integrity" CHOOSE to be that way (not because there aren't other fish in the sea).

For 36 years I led a life of high integrity. Little-by-little... the sense of integrity started to dwindle (and yes, I allowed it). It's not far different from a person initially having high self-esteem (and self-worth), and gradually over time having lower & lower self-esteem.

Just because a person has "low self-esteem" now doesn't mean they didn't have it before (and can't have it again in the future).

I realize the "dream-like" state feeling I have with the OW will not last forever. All I was trying to say was the connection I feel with the OW was so overpowering that it drove me to the point of considering leaving my wife. My wife can be an interesting bird. There are times when I think she cares (like the improvements she made this past year), and there are other times where she's aloof & distant. Except for this past year, she would always make "half-ass haphazard" attempts to improve things but ALWAYS WITHOUT FAIL REVERT BACK TO THE "NORMAL HER". Any improvements would never stick. Very frustrating. Initially you get hurt & angry (and argue or discuss what you are upset about). But eventually... you learn to just ignore it and not care anymore.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> The flu shot example is just one of many cases where I felt very disappointed in the level of disrespect. I'm not saying that she needs to agree with everything I say. Disagreements can be a good thing, and positively presented poses wonderful challenges (and variety) in relationships. It's HOW the disagreements & arguments get resolved that matter most.
> 
> She should have approached me and discussed a mutual resolution rather than sneaking the kids off to the doctor take care of things "her way". She sometimes has this "mother knows best" attitude, but for every time her opinion was correct there are other moments where her opinion was not.
> 
> This was NOT a case where... "OMG... you took the kids to get a flu shot. Guess I'll have an affair now". This is more a case of a gradual chipping away at our relationship until a mole hill became a mountain, and then a chasm right under our noses. This is a gradual change over years (not weeks or months).


No, Richard, mate, it's never one thing. It's always a slippery slope towards infidelity. It's like a toboggan run. The toboggan is always slow at the start when they push off. But towards the end, they are really flying. 

BTW, one thing that some BS admit is that they have a growing lack of respect for their spouse the longer the affair continues. It's as if they feel a sense of one-upmanship over their clueless, trusting spouse. After all, to not see that the WS is, indeed, wayward, why, they must be pretty stupid, huh?

No. Just loving and trusting their beloved not to stab them in the back.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Also Richard you should know that affairs have a way of being discovered even long after. An idle look, a found picture, a comment by a friend. A restaurant that you mention liking but your SO has never been at.
> 
> Your wife may yet find out your second life and expose it to the world. Do don't assume this is all in your control and that you are safe.
> 
> If she were to come here looking for advice on building her marriage, I would be giving her advice on how to uncover and nail her husband if is cheating.


Hello Shaggy.

Yes. I understand this is a possibility. If staying in the marriage is the best option, that would mean the affair was the mistake and not the marriage (even though I currently feel like I married the wrong person). If the affair is the mistake, then I feel it's in the family's best interest to move on without the knowledge of this mistake. Obviously, this only makes sense if I am completely on board and live the rest of my relationship as a dedicated husband. If I continue to allow "semi-happiness" in the marriage, that is like saying I am okay with the risk of another affair to happen (and potentially act on it).

If leaving the marriage is the best option, then coming clean about the affair feels like the right thing to do. What I don't want is to be pro marriage and then be all "I love you, dear, but guess what... you'll never believe what's been going on these last 4 years BTW..."

In this particular case, I feel it isn't possible to keep the affair a secret if I choose to leave the marriage. The truth WILL come out one way or another.

I also feel if I continue the affair, it's like playing with a "loaded gun" and sooner or later the truth will come out.

If the affair stops now, there is a very good chance it will not come out (but I will spend the rest of my waking life with guilt and shame of it). By divorcing my wife to choose to be with the other woman there is no "affair" to be ashamed of but I do run the risk of feeling shameful and guilty for causing the windfall of damage.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

So OP, why don't you tell us what you have been doing to meet your wife's needs? How much time and energy are you putting in to your relationship with HER? I see a lot about how she isn't meeting your needs, but I have seen no evidence that you have even attempted to realize that she has needs and I doubt you are meeting them. Please clarify this for me.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> Hello Shaggy.
> 
> Yes. I understand this is a possibility. If staying in the marriage is the best option, that would mean the affair was the mistake and not the marriage (even though I currently feel like I married the wrong person). If the affair is the mistake, then I feel it's in the family's best interest to move on without the knowledge of this mistake. Obviously, this only makes sense if I am completely on board and live the rest of my relationship as a dedicated husband. If I continue to allow "semi-happiness" in the marriage, that is like saying I am okay with the risk of another affair to happen (and potentially act on it).
> 
> ...


Just an FYI, keeping the secret of your affair will create a distance between the two of you that you will not be able to close. I have lived it.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD said:


> Just an FYI, keeping the secret of your affair will create a distance between the two of you that you will not be able to close. I have lived it.


DawnD: I'm hoping this can be resolved in time. It may be hard to "close" at first, but over time closure can hopefully be had.

Matt: Believe it or not, I have not felt any less respect for my wife because of her being oblivious to the affair. The respect I lost started much earlier, and grew over time before the affair started.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> DawnD: I'm hoping this can be resolved in time. It may be hard to "close" at first, but over time closure can hopefully be had.
> 
> Matt: Believe it or not, I have not felt any less respect for my wife because of her being oblivious to the affair. The respect I lost started much earlier, and grew over time before the affair started.


Lets see, the distance from my H lying for a year and a half didn't close until the truth was told. So, I don't honestly think you can grasp the reality of the situation. Not only do you already place a lot of "blame" on your spouse, you will more than likely secretly blame her for your affair, and having to end it. Because you will never have been through the fallout from dealing with it. Which makes you believe that she probably didn't even care that you had an affair, etc, etc, insert random fog talk here, etc, etc


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Richard I have a feeling that when you say "you don't want to put your children through the divorce" is just a poor excuse of a cake eater who wants to have both the wife and the lover. This situation is comfortable for you, isn't it ?
But the children will eventually understand that you're having an affair and they might end up hating you and suffering even more if they find out by chance. 
C'mon, it won't be the end of their world if you divorce. They will survive just like all the other children out there.

And you bother too much with the term "integrity". You don't have it, so enough already ! 
Instead, think about what you're going to do next. You can't keep on living with this affair for the rest of your life .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD said:


> Lets see, the distance from my H lying for a year and a half didn't close until the truth was told. So, I don't honestly think you can grasp the reality of the situation. Not only do you already place a lot of "blame" on your spouse, you will more than likely secretly blame her for your affair, and having to end it. Because you will never have been through the fallout from dealing with it. Which makes you believe that she probably didn't even care that you had an affair, etc, etc, insert random fog talk here, etc, etc


I'm not blaming my spouse for making the choice of having an affair. BOTH of us had an equal role at chipping away at our marriage before the affair started.

As long as I am in love with the OW, there will always be a gap between my wife and I. If I continue the affair behind my wife's back, there will be no "closing" of this gap. If I make an active choice to be a better husband and live an honest (and non-cheating) life, I actually do feel in time the gap I feel on the inside will be closed. If my wife remains unaware, her gap will not exist. If my wife finds out down-the-road, then obviously it would have to be dealt with at that time. But that doesn't mean I can't start making changes and improvements now. If I get a divorce to be with the OW, if the OW also chooses to be with me there will be a fallout of aftermath to deal with (which I already know is HUGE). If I divorce to be with the OW and the OW chooses to stay with her husband I'm the biggest schmuck in the world.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Richard I have a feeling that when you say "you don't want to put your children through the divorce" is just a poor excuse of a cake eater who wants to have both the wife and the lover. This situation is comfortable for you, isn't it ?
> But the children will eventually understand that you're having an affair and they might end up hating you and suffering even more if they find out by chance.
> C'mon, it won't be the end of their world if you divorce. They will survive just like all the other children out there.
> 
> ...



During the first stages of the affair, I did have a preference to "have the cake and eat it too". I'm now at the point where I can no longer live this way.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> DawnD: I'm hoping this can be resolved in time. It may be hard to "close" at first, but over time closure can hopefully be had.
> 
> Matt: Believe it or not, I have not felt any less respect for my wife because of her being oblivious to the affair. The respect I lost started much earlier, and grew over time before the affair started.


So the lack of respect fuelled your ability/desire to cheat? Yes, I suppose that can happen. Although there have been instances where a BS has accidentally misremembered vast chunks of their marriage, casting husband/wife in the role of a villain when that wasn't the case, in reality. (It's like a cheater's distort effect, if you will.)


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> I'm not blaming my spouse for making the choice of having an affair. BOTH of us had an equal role at chipping away at our marriage before the affair started.
> 
> As long as I am in love with the OW, there will always be a gap between my wife and I. If I continue the affair behind my wife's back, there will be no "closing" of this gap. If I make an active choice to be a better husband and live an honest (and non-cheating) life, I actually do feel in time the gap I feel on the inside will be closed. If my wife remains unaware, her gap will not exist. If my wife finds out down-the-road, then obviously it would have to be dealt with at that time. But that doesn't mean I can't start making changes and improvements now. If I get a divorce to be with the OW, if the OW also chooses to be with me there will be a fallout of aftermath to deal with (which I already know is HUGE). If I divorce to be with the OW and the OW chooses to stay with her husband I'm the biggest schmuck in the world.


 So you don't actually want advice on what the right thing to do is, you want to know what to do so you don't end up alone? If you choose to divorce and the OW decides she doesn't want to do that, then you are no longer in your "semi-happy marriage" and free to go meet other women and find another connection. You are displaying the EXACT sentiments of a cake eater. Well, I don't want my wife, but I don't want to be alone.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

5 bans resulting from this thread so far.

If you can't say something constructive, positive, or at best neutral ... then you should not respond.

There will be no warnings resulting from name calling, personal attacks, veiled attacks via sarcasm.

OP has gotten the message ...

without the vitriol.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> So the lack of respect fuelled your ability/desire to cheat? Yes, I suppose that can happen. Although there have been instances where a BS has accidentally misremembered vast chunks of their marriage, casting husband/wife in the role of a villain when that wasn't the case, in reality. (It's like a cheater's distort effect, if you will.)


I know and can see the "cheater's distort" effect - mostly in the way I UNDERESTIMATE the good my wife & I had while OVERESTIMATING the bad.

The lack of respect... COUPLED WITH THE GRADUAL DEGRADING OF MY FEELINGS TOWARDS INDIFFERENCE is what likely fuelled my desire to cheat. If I was in a *miserable* relationship, I would have gotten a divorce - probably many years ago. If I was in an *emotionally happy* relationship I would never have cheated.

I honestly do feel most cheaters fall into a similar boat as I was in... living for a LONG EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME in an emotionally unfulfilling relationship that's still "nice & somewhat happy" overall.

Does that make sense?


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Deejo said:


> 5 bans resulting from this thread so far.
> 
> If you can't say something constructive, positive, or at best neutral ... then you should not respond.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Deejo!!!!! I actually came on here looking for HELP, not to be outcast, scorned, & ridiculed.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> I honestly do feel most cheaters fall into a similar boat as I was in... living for a LONG EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME in an emotionally unfulfilling relationship that's still "nice & somewhat happy" overall.


You left out the last part of your description, so I am going to help. (this isn't being sarcastic either, very serious)

starting at "overall, in which they didn't try or put forth any effort to better the marriage, they simply waited for their spouse to do so. This resulted in them feeling resentment that their spouse won't just DO whatever they need to to make the marriage work, while they sit by and do nothing."


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> If leaving the marriage is the best option, then coming clean about the affair feels like the right thing to do.
> ...
> 
> In this particular case, I feel it isn't possible to keep the affair a secret if I choose to leave the marriage. The truth WILL come out one way or another.


I don't understand this. Why do you feel that if you leave the marriage the truth will come out?

I think that PBear's advice on not telling if you leave her makes a lot of sense.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

Richie boy, I'm not really good at mincing words. I had an account here previously and was banned because someone took umbrage to a very direct hit. I'll try and not do that here. Listen mate, my wife was in your position years ago. You need to understand that the life you're living with your girlfriend is a fantasy. My wife badgered me to come and post here because she sees herself in you. Don't make your own life miserable by being indecisive. 

Can you imagine a life with the OW where if you were to become sick, you could depend on her to take care of you, give you a bed pan and stuff like that? can you imagine her doing your laundry and biting your head off when you get home after work?

Your position is very precarious no doubt, but the longer you remain in limbo, the harder it is to extricate yourself from the pain. You cannot avoid pain, whatever you do so stop trying to do that.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD...

It's kind of like the "silent treatment" game. On the contrary, us "cheaters" actually HAVE done things... initiating sex (to get turned down because the spouse is "too tired") or coming up with fun ideas to make the marriage better (either to get turned down again or taken for granted).

It's from the constant buildup of frustration where you start to give up and not care anymore. Indifference.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I don't understand this. Why do you feel that if you leave the marriage the truth will come out?
> 
> I think that PBear's advice on not telling if you leave her makes a lot of sense.


EleGirl: It's because the affair was with a co-worker that we both mutually know. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put 2-and-2 together.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> DawnD...
> 
> It's kind of like the "silent treatment" game. On the contrary, us "cheaters" actually HAVE done things... initiating sex (to get turned down because the spouse is "too tired") or coming up with fun ideas to make the marriage better (either to get turned down again or taken for granted).
> 
> It's from the constant buildup of frustration where you start to give up and not care anymore. Indifference.


And at what point, did you walk up to your wife and tell her " I don't think I am meeting your needs, and mine aren't being met either. We should sit down and figure out what both of us need from one another so we are both happy."

If you didn't do that, then you are just as responsible for the decay and the loss of attraction. Why on earth would she want to have sex with you when you are putting all your time and energy towards another woman? I guarentee you she doesn't feel as if you love and appreciate her. WHY would you expect her to put out when she is getting close to nothing from you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> The flu shot example is just one of many cases where I felt very disappointed in the level of disrespect. I'm not saying that she needs to agree with everything I say. Disagreements can be a good thing, and positively presented poses wonderful challenges (and variety) in relationships. It's HOW the disagreements & arguments get resolved that matter most.
> 
> She should have approached me and discussed a mutual resolution rather than sneaking the kids off to the doctor take care of things "her way". She sometimes has this "mother knows best" attitude, but for every time her opinion was correct there are other moments where her opinion was not.
> 
> This was NOT a case where... "OMG... you took the kids to get a flu shot. Guess I'll have an affair now". This is more a case of a gradual chipping away at our relationship until a mole hill became a mountain, and then a chasm right under our noses. This is a gradual change over years (not weeks or months).


Your wife is a SAHM right? She's the one who has the major responsibility for the children. She's the one who will need to take care of them if they all got the flu. And she's the one who would most likely also get the flu from them when she takes care of them.

There is a very good argument that she did have the last say in this type of decision. While you see what she did as lack of respect for you, it could be seen as you having a lack of respect for her since, next to the children, she is the one who would be the most impacted if they all came down with the flu.

This example is particularly meaningful to me because one of the clear memories I have from childhood is when we all got the flu. I can still see us all at home with my mom. She got it too. She was misserable and still trying to take care of us all. I know that it was a hard week or two for her to be stuck at home, very sick and yet not being able to take care of herself because she had all of us children to care for.

My dad? He never caught it. He was at work most of the day and able to avoid us.

As a society we tend to think of the flu as a minor illness. It is not. My great grandmother watched 8 of her 13 children die in one week from the flu. Sure we don't see that often anymore. Most deaths from the flu are actually from secndary infections that follow the flu. Today we have anti-biotics, etc to help with that. Yet children do still die from the flu and those secondary infections. I have a brother who works in an emergency room. Every flu season he calls me almost weekly to tell me about the children who he sees die from these things. I

Was it during the bird flu scare that your wife got your children the shots? It as the bird flu epidemic that killed 8 of my great aunts/uncles (who were children at the time).

Sometime you have to trust your wife and not take her actions so darn personal.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> This type of marriage is "LOW PASSION" but also "LOW CONFLICT". I've sinced learned this type of relationship is most at risk for affairs (and divorce). Obviously (in hindsight), if either my wife or I saw this coming it's quite possible either of us would have made some changes to prevent such a thing from happening.
> 
> This isn't a case where I begrudgingly had an affair, then researched & researched to discover some "technical ailment" to cause the affair so I feel better about myself. This is a case of living several years in an unfulfilling relationship.
> 
> ...


Richard,

You seem to blame your wife for the lack of passion in your marriage. You are as responsible for the lack of passion as she is. You are 50% responsible for creating this "SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE". And yet you seem to blame it on your wife.

You could have raised the stakes till there was more passion. But you chose not to.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> I know and can see the "cheater's distort" effect - mostly in the way I UNDERESTIMATE the good my wife & I had while OVERESTIMATING the bad.
> 
> The lack of respect... COUPLED WITH THE GRADUAL DEGRADING OF MY FEELINGS TOWARDS INDIFFERENCE is what likely fuelled my desire to cheat. If I was in a *miserable* relationship, I would have gotten a divorce - probably many years ago. If I was in an *emotionally happy* relationship I would never have cheated.
> 
> ...


Yes, it makes sense but cheating is never justified. 
If your wife doesnt fullfill you then communicate your concern and express it to her. 
If she doesnt try or if she tries but still you're not satisfied, just leave.
It's not easy...I can imagine. But you can't live this double life and you can't do this behind her back. 
Just imagine yourself instead of her. How would you feel being taken for a fool?

I can understand that a semi-happy marriage sometimes is worse than an unhappy marriage but don't you think that a divorced parent / single dad is happier than a semi-happy dad?
Supposing you divorce from your W and break up from the OW. what do you lose ? 
Nothing! I'm sure you'd be way happier than to live with a wife you're indifferent to. If you divorce you'll have the chance to start a new life, with or without the OW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> I know and can see the "cheater's distort" effect - mostly in the way I UNDERESTIMATE the good my wife & I had while OVERESTIMATING the bad.
> 
> The lack of respect... COUPLED WITH THE GRADUAL DEGRADING OF MY FEELINGS TOWARDS INDIFFERENCE is what likely fuelled my desire to cheat. If I was in a *miserable* relationship, I would have gotten a divorce - probably many years ago. If I was in an *emotionally happy* relationship I would never have cheated.
> 
> ...


Sadly, it does.

May I suggest MC for you and your wife? And IC for the two of you?

You have a tough path ahead of you Richard. No matter what you do, someone (and you, also) will be hurt.

My best wishes for you and your family. And also for your OW and her husband.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD said:


> And at what point, did you walk up to your wife and tell her " I don't think I am meeting your needs, and mine aren't being met either. We should sit down and figure out what both of us need from one another so we are both happy."
> 
> If you didn't do that, then you are just as responsible for the decay and the loss of attraction. Why on earth would she want to have sex with you when you are putting all your time and energy towards another woman? I guarentee you she doesn't feel as if you love and appreciate her. WHY would you expect her to put out when she is getting close to nothing from you?


Long story short, I fully admit I share the blame of not meeting my wife's needs and this affair was *NOT* my wife's fault. I have lived many years in a semi-happy marriage. I am torn between leaving my wife and 3 children (the devastation of that kills me) to be with a person I consider to be the love of my life... versus... choosing to stay with the wife and making things as best as possible (even though it probably would not come close to the feelings the OW and I share for each other).

I joined the board last night to receive some thoughtful help to enable me to make the best decision. It seems like the board is already "pro-WIFE" and on her side without any care or realization to how she may have contributed. I'm immediately classified as the "selfish cheating bastard", but what people don't see is that I actually came on this board for some thoughtful HELP... and not to stir up anger or drudge up painful feelings with those who have been dumped.

Believe it or not, there actually is a lot of heartache on BOTH sides (the "victim" as well as the "cheater").


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> EleGirl: It's because the affair was with a co-worker that we both mutually know. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put 2-and-2 together.


Ah. Got you on that, Richard. See your reasoning.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> Long story short, I fully admit I share the blame of not meeting my wife's needs and this affair was *NOT* my wife's fault. I have lived many years in a semi-happy marriage. I am torn between leaving my wife and 3 children (the devastation of that kills me) to be with a person I consider to be the love of my life... versus... choosing to stay with the wife and making things as best as possible (even though it probably would not come close to the feelings the OW and I share for each other).
> 
> I joined the board last night to receive some thoughtful help to enable me to make the best decision. It seems like the board is already "pro-WIFE" and on her side without any care or realization to how she may have contributed. I'm immediately classified as the "selfish cheating bastard", but what people don't see is that I actually came on this board for some thoughtful HELP... and not to stir up anger or drudge up painful feelings with those who have been dumped.
> 
> Believe it or not, there actually is a lot of heartache on BOTH sides (the "victim" as well as the "cheater").


 I don't know where you got that from. I said in the beginning to sit your wife down, tell her you are leaving, tell her about the affair, tell your kids so they know it isn't mommy's fault, and go. That is honestly what is best for your wife. She deserves to find someone who truly loves her. 

You and OW, sure give it a shot. It will be riddled with problems, from both of your marriages, but your love will endure, yes? Your kids will not love her, and more than likely will not want to be around her, but she is the love of your life. her kids will not love or want to be around you. But its all gravy. The best thing you can do is allow your wife to know the truth and let her find someone better for her.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> It seems like the board is already "pro-WIFE" ").


In your case I'm not pro-Wife.
I'm pro-divorce. With or without the OW. 

You are not in love with your wife. This says it all.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> EleGirl: It's because the affair was with a co-worker that we both mutually know. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put 2-and-2 together.


Has your affair partner ever been over to you house while your wife was away? I have a reason for asking... will explain after you answer.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

OP -- every time you answer me about her needs, you say you are in a semi happy marriage. You actually are NOT answering the question of what did you do to make the marriage better. I know you feel you are in a semi happy marriage, you say that in almost every post. What I am asking, is how you attempted to improve that marriage before stepping out? You say you left so your WIFE could have a chance to improve. I am asking YOU, what have you done to improve your marriage?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Long story short, I fully admit I share the blame of not meeting my wife's needs and this affair was *NOT* my wife's fault. I have lived many years in a semi-happy marriage. I am torn between leaving my wife and 3 children (the devastation of that kills me) to be with a person I consider to be the love of my life... versus... choosing to stay with the wife and making things as best as possible (even though it probably would not come close to the feelings the OW and I share for each other).
> 
> I joined the board last night to receive some thoughtful help to enable me to make the best decision. It seems like the board is already "pro-WIFE" and on her side without any care or realization to how she may have contributed. I'm immediately classified as the "selfish cheating bastard", but what people don't see is that I actually came on this board for some thoughtful HELP... and not to stir up anger or drudge up painful feelings with those who have been dumped.
> 
> Believe it or not, there actually is a lot of heartache on BOTH sides (the "victim" as well as the "cheater").


Richard, we know this. How? Some of us -myself included- have both been cheated on and cheated. 

I was tough on you. Yes, I was. Why? Because I was fearful for you and your wife, and your children and the OW, her husband and their children.

You two kids are skipping along like lambs to particularly nasty slaughter. Hand in hand. Actually, that doesn't work, because lambs don't have hands. Ah! You know what I mean!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> In your case I'm not pro-Wife.
> I'm pro-divorce. With or without the OW.
> 
> You are not in love with your wife. This says it all.


I think he is in love with his wife. But is fearful to admit it to himself.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

MattMatt said:


> I think he is in love with his wife. But is fearful to admit it to himself.


I don't. I think he he has been with her so long, that now he is doing whatever he can to ensure he isn't alone. Doesn't matter who he is with, as long as it isn't by himself. Which tells me he needs a whole lot of individual counseling.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Yes, it makes sense but cheating is never justified.
> If your wife doesnt fullfill you then communicate your concern and express it to her.
> If she doesnt try or if she tries but still you're not satisfied, just leave.
> It's not easy...I can imagine. But you can't live this double life and you can't do this behind her back.
> ...



Before falling in love with the OW, I would have been happiest living a life being HAPPY with the wife.

I don't want to divorce if it will cause permanent misery on my wife, kids, or my relationship with the OW. I am neutral towards the OW's spouse.

If my life at home continues to only be in a "semi-happy" state, you are correct that I have nothing to lose. But in today's economy living on 1 paycheck and paying $1500 per month on child support would yield a significantly decreased quality of life. If I was able to spend the rest of my life with a person I consider to be the woman of my dreams it would make the MONETARY sacrifice worth it.

There's a huge part of me that feels life will not be "all roses" once & after the OW and I start our lives together. There's also a huge part of me that feels life at home has a really good chance at no longer being "semi-happy" - especially considering the improvements my wife has made.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I think he is in love with his wife. But is fearful to admit it to himself.


Sorry but this doesnt make sense. He just admitted he is indifferent to her. It has been like this for YEARS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Sorry but this doesnt make sense. He just admitted be is indifferent to her. It has been like this for YEARS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do not feel I am "IN LOVE" with my wife. I do love her - but more as family. She is the mother of our children, and we have a long history (20+ years).

I can only be in love with 1 person. If I was not in love with the OW, I suppose it may be possible I could fall in love with my wife over again... but that would not happen unless we both could improve the relationship. It's just very hard imagining not being in love with the OW considering the 4 year stint we had. I know it would take me a very long time to get over her.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Sorry but this doesnt make sense. He just admitted be is indifferent to her. It has been like this for YEARS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he admitted to himself that he still loved his wife, well, then the affair with the OW would come to an instant stop with all wheels off!

But his desire not to cause her any pain may indicate some love for his wife. But kept hidden, especially from himself.



> I am neutral towards the OW's spouse


Not keen on that, though. Sounds a little callous?

When my wife's husband was really, seriously ill toward the end of his life I actually helped her look after him, so the idea of not caring/being neutral is not something I could get my head around. Sorry, Richard, maybe it's just me.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Long story short, I fully admit I share the blame of not meeting my wife's needs and this affair was *NOT* my wife's fault. I have lived many years in a semi-happy marriage. I am torn between leaving my wife and 3 children (the devastation of that kills me) to be with a person I consider to be the love of my life... versus... choosing to stay with the wife and making things as best as possible (even though it probably would not come close to the feelings the OW and I share for each other).
> 
> I joined the board last night to receive some thoughtful help to enable me to make the best decision. It seems like the board is already "pro-WIFE" and on her side without any care or realization to how she may have contributed. I'm immediately classified as the "selfish cheating bastard", but what people don't see is that I actually came on this board for some thoughtful HELP... and not to stir up anger or drudge up painful feelings with those who have been dumped.
> 
> Believe it or not, there actually is a lot of heartache on BOTH sides (the "victim" as well as the "cheater").


This board is pro-wife? Seriously? Have you even stepped out of your thread and read anyone else's? This board isn't pro-wife or pro-husband. It's *ANTI INFIDELITY* and how to cope with it. 

Both you and your BW share 50% of the responsibility for the state of the marriage before the affair. You are 100% responsible for the cheating.

And FYI, I haven't been dumped. I'm two years into reconciliation because my fWW, who was the cheater, is 100% remorseful for her actions, is doing the heavy lifting to repair the marriage and rebuild trust. Otherwise, I would kick her to the curb, not the other way around.

With your current attitude, there's no way in hell that you can repair your marriage even if your BW is willing because you show absolutely no remorse at all for your actions. You continually GUSH (just like a love sick teenager) about your OW, while at the same time demonizing your BW. Upset because she got your children flu shots? Give me a break. You continually try to justify your affair and blameshift. THIS is what upsets the people on this board, that and your lack of remorse. And without true remorse, there can be no reconciliation.

This is why your best best is to let your betrayed wife go. Because of your deep connection with your OW, any R will be futile and will only enhance the pain that your BW and children will feel.

And with that, I'm out of this thread.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> I do not feel I am "IN LOVE" with my wife. I do love her - but more as family. She is the mother of our children, and we have a long history (20+ years).
> 
> I can only be in love with 1 person. If I was not in love with the OW, I suppose it may be possible I could fall in love with my wife over again... but that would not happen unless we both could improve the relationship. It's just very hard imagining not being in love with the OW considering the 4 year stint we had. I know it would take me a very long time to get over her.


I don't think that will work OP. Because improving the marriage would actually mean you have to contribute to making it better, when you don't seem to think you should. Awful lot about what your wife needs to improve to "get you" to stay, but nothing about what you need to do to improve your half. It won't work like that. Why not just tell the wife and let her make the choice? She may want to work it out, she may boot you out. Either way, you have your answer.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> I do not feel I am "IN LOVE" with my wife. I do love her - but more as family. She is the mother of our children, and we have a long history (20+ years).
> 
> I can only be in love with 1 person. If I was not in love with the OW, I suppose it may be possible I could fall in love with my wife over again... but that would not happen unless we both could improve the relationship. It's just very hard imagining not being in love with the OW considering the 4 year stint we had. I know it would take me a very long time to get over her.


Not In Love With You is, sadly, typical affair talk, Richard. In the affair fog, as it is also known.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> Long story short, I fully admit I share the blame of not meeting my wife's needs and this affair was *NOT* my wife's fault. I have lived many years in a semi-happy marriage. I am torn between leaving my wife and 3 children (the devastation of that kills me) to be with a person I consider to be the love of my life... versus... choosing to stay with the wife and making things as best as possible (even though it probably would not come close to the feelings the OW and I share for each other).
> 
> I joined the board last night to receive some thoughtful help to enable me to make the best decision. It seems like the board is already "pro-WIFE" and on her side without any care or realization to how she may have contributed. I'm immediately classified as the "selfish cheating bastard", but what people don't see is that I actually came on this board for some thoughtful HELP... and not to stir up anger or drudge up painful feelings with those who have been dumped.
> 
> Believe it or not, there actually is a lot of heartache on BOTH sides (the "victim" as well as the "cheater").


I find it courious that you keep taking about leaving your kids. If you get a divorce you will not be leaving your kids will you? YOu are divorcing her, not the kids. Wouldn't you want them 50% of the time?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> DawnD...
> 
> It's kind of like the "silent treatment" game. On the contrary, us "cheaters" actually HAVE done things... initiating sex (to get turned down because the spouse is "too tired") or coming up with fun ideas to make the marriage better (either to get turned down again or taken for granted).
> 
> It's from the constant buildup of frustration where you start to give up and not care anymore. Indifference.


The above is your reponse to what you did to try to meet your wife's needs. She turned you down because she was "too tired". So why was she too tired? Apparently the sex and your idea of fun were not in her needs list at the time. Maybe she really was too tired and needed relief for that. Maybe there were deeper needs. What did you do to find out what needs she had that were not met as opposed your needs that you prososed to her.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Richard,

It seems to me that you are in agony because a) you want to be with the person you believe is the love of your life, and b) you don't want to hurt your family.

These are normal human desires. The problem for you is that these two desires are probably incompatible now. Many of the posters here have pointed out that the cheating itself, independent of whether your wife knows, hurts your family. And it's impossible to miss how it's tearing you up.

You say that your wife had her part in how your relationship has evolved. Fair enough. Perhaps you should give her the chance to play a part in the decision that you're agonizing over now. Perhaps you should tell her how you feel, really feel, and give her some measure of control over her future. Yes, it's all hurtful & you can't predict or control how it will end, but it sounds like things have gone so far with your situation that ensuring a particular outcome is not possible. (Is it ever?)


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Listen OP, you will *ALWAYS *feel a spark, a drive, a connection. You are addicted to novelty, dopamine. You are addicted to the dopamine that his exciting new relationship has brought you to push through your brain and activate good feelings of love. Let me tell you, ITS ALL A LIE, its false and you have believed it, and you are naive to think that you can run off and make it work. 

You say you have grown to be a rational 40+ adult well I *BET *(yes bet, not beg) to differ. You are *not *rational, and you have let yourself fall and infected with this brain fog. You are not clear minded, you are clouded by your affair. If you divorce, I can guarantee problems, why? Because every divorce with children involved will create problems, but if your wife knows about it (affair) she would probably prefer these problems over living with a cheater and a liar like you. Dont come here expecting to take what you want to hear, typical cheater mindset. Remove yourself of this thinking and put your head straight on and realize your errors and the gravity of them.

Good luck to you sir, I'm done commenting on this thread.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch: All this talk about "dopamine" makes me feel like you are making my feelings as nothing more than an illusion. I find this impossible to believe. I know my feelings. I have lived with them for 40+ years. That's why I said I come to this board as a 40 year old adult and not a "lovesick" teenager.

I do understand the "rush of excitement" through the initial stages of a relationship. All I can tell you there are specific feelings that have made this experience different. I'm tired of the over-generalization stereotyping me as "another common scripted cheater".

What I can agree to is the strong likelihood my mind is very clouded by the emotional feelings from this affair. One choice I can consider making is turning over a new leaf, which would involve breaking up with the OW. If, after time from separation, this allows me to realize not only how important the FAMILY relationship is (but also important... how important my relationship is with my WIFE), then I will feel satisfied with the resolution and move forward from there the best I can.

If after 6months I am still not feeling good in the marriage I will probably have "the talk" with my wife and involve her in the decision if she prefers MC or divorce. Either way it goes, I am not going to cheat any longer. Many posters assume I wouldn't feel bad for divorcing my family. It's because the thought of that hurts is why I came on here asking for help and advice.

While I do feel guilt, I am not exactly sure why the remorse part hasn't sunken in yet. It's actually scary to think that a marriage can possibly evolve into something this horrible.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> But his desire not to cause her any pain may indicate some love for his wife. But kept hidden, especially from himself.


Of course he loves his wife. He doesn't hate her. 
It's just that he's not IN LOVE with her. That's the difference.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Anyway, I think I'm done with this post now. After sleeping these thoughts over (and reading the very harsh comments), I'm pretty confident on the path I need to take. I'm sure it isn't the path the members of this board would like to see, but is probably the best compromise I can manage.

Thanks to everyone who gave me the most meaningful responses (Esp. EleGirl, DawnD, & MattMatt to name a few).


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

Mr Collier, you've had an affair for 4 years, thats 4 years where your love for this OW hasn't been tested by the everyday hassles that come with a real working relationship. This is the reason why you're ranking this relationship higher than your marriage. 

I don't suppose you worry about giving the OW a back-rub or making her tea on sunday mornings or taking care of her while she's sick or discussing family finances with her. I feel that you should look at this relationship for what it really is rather than glorifying it. 

Just think about it, what if your wife were going behind your back? How would it feel to find out that she isn't the person you thought she was, just like you're not the person you're pretending to be when you go home.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> Just think about it, what if your wife were going behind your back? How would it feel to find out that she isn't the person you thought she was, just like you're not the person you're pretending to be when you go home.


That might be eye opening.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Kitty and Harken, unfortunately, he's gone. He won't be reading this stuff any more. It's a shame,too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

OP -- if you do by chance come back in here to glance at these last few posts keep this forum in mind if/when the SHTF and your affair is exposed. This would be an excellent resource for your betrayed wife, and the members here will help her heal and teach her how to move on, whether it is with or without you. 

If you feel you need to tell her and simply can't, lead her to your thread. Plenty of reading for her to do, and plenty of people pointing out things that she should hear.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Shout, I wish he would come back.

I wanted to address OP's thought with regard to "once a cheater all ways a cheater. 

I'm a hater, cant really think of anyone I really like, But I do disbelive in the notion of "once a cheater always a cheater"

Same goes with "once a wife beater allways a wife beater" .....I think...well I know poeple can change.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> CleanJerkSnatch: All this talk about "dopamine" makes me feel like you are making my feelings as nothing more than an illusion. I find this impossible to believe. I know my feelings. I have lived with them for 40+ years. That's why I said I come to this board as a 40 year old adult and not a "lovesick" teenager.
> 
> I do understand the "rush of excitement" through the initial stages of a relationship. All I can tell you there are specific feelings that have made this experience different. I'm tired of the over-generalization stereotyping me as "another common scripted cheater".
> 
> ...


Have you ever done ecstacy? Do it once and see how you feel. You'll find that you love, are in love and feel a connection with everyone you look at. It's because the drug is affecting your brain in this way. You really should try this, it may open your eyes and make you realize that you have induced a drug like state regarding this woman.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

Any drug for that matter although I can personally attest to ecstasy's charms.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

semi-charmed kind of life


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> Any drug for that matter although I can personally attest to ecstasy's charms.


I need some of that drug...


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Wow, I go to sleep and this thread goes viral.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Wow, I go to sleep and this thread goes viral.


Sadly, I think Richard has bailed out.

Too much honest advice, perhaps?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> CleanJerkSnatch: All this talk about "dopamine" makes me feel like you are making my feelings as nothing more than an illusion. I find this impossible to believe. I know my feelings. I have lived with them for 40+ years. That's why I said I come to this board as a 40 year old adult and not a "lovesick" teenager.
> 
> I do understand the "rush of excitement" through the initial stages of a relationship. All I can tell you there are specific feelings that have made this experience different. I'm tired of the over-generalization stereotyping me as "another common scripted cheater".
> 
> ...


There are at least dozens of books out there that will explain this, scientifically, to you. You are exactly like a love sick teenager. You are in the first stage of the breeding cycle. The same cycle that most every couple goes through. REAL love is the thing that binds us together over the years. 

Ironically, women go in five year cycles of subconciously trying to mate with a different partner. Fortunately, only about 30% do. Thats why one study found that over 70 % of women admit they would have an affair if they knew they would not get caught. 75% of men by the way. About 35-40% of men cheat. Infatuation, what you are in, isn't love, its lust. The reason it continues in your relationship is that you have limited contact and responsibility for the AP. Add to that the high of sneaking around, having secrets, fanatasizing and YOU are in the affair fog. That's why study after study gives you and yes, every other cheating couple, a three out of one hundred chance of having a long term chance of having a long term relationship. Cut those odds by one third for a "happy" long term relationship.

You hit the jackpot marrying a woman who doesn't cheat and that you were fairly happy with. Your wife got robbed.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> CleanJerkSnatch: *All this talk about "dopamine" makes me feel like you are making my feelings as nothing more than an illusion. I find this impossible to believe. I know my feelings. I have lived with them for 40+ years. That's why I said I come to this board as a 40 year old adult and not a "lovesick" teenager.*.


Obviously, you don't understand a tiny hormone called DOPAMINE!!!!

http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

I'm glad he is gone. He just doesn't get it. Like any addict, they believe what they are experiencing is unique. Richard is willing to sacrifice everything because of "feelings". He is justifying everything for his addiction. 
He is doomed to repeat because his is not placing the blame on himself. He is the problem. He never once asked for help. He only wanted an easy way out of his self imposed pickle. 
I feel sorry for him


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

chapparal said:


> There are at least dozens of books out there that will explain this, scientifically, to you. You are exactly like a love sick teenager. You are in the first stage of the breeding cycle. The same cycle that most every couple goes through. REAL love is the thing that binds us together over the years.
> 
> Ironically, women go in five year cycles of subconciously trying to mate with a different partner. Fortunately, only about 30% do. Thats why one study found that over 70 % of women admit they would have an affair if they knew they would not get caught. 75% of men by the way. About 35-40% of men cheat. Infatuation, what you are in, isn't love, its lust. The reason it continues in your relationship is that you have limited contact and responsibility for the AP. Add to that the high of sneaking around, having secrets, fanatasizing and YOU are in the affair fog. That's why study after study gives you and yes, every other cheating couple, a three out of one hundred chance of having a long term chance of having a long term relationship. Cut those odds by one third for a "happy" long term relationship.
> 
> You hit the jackpot marrying a woman who doesn't cheat and that you were fairly happy with. Your wife got robbed.


I haven't completely bailed, but am just lurking for the next day or so. I wouldn't say I hit the "jackpot" for living in a semi-happy marriage for nearly a decade. I believe there are many more marriages that are way better than ours. Either that, or they just put on an excellent front.

Another reason (if I haven't mentioned this before) why this was so consuming was that the IN-LOVE feelings stayed intensely the same throughout the 4 years. I've read that typically these feelings only last 6-9 months. While the relationship with the OW did not have the burden of problems, financial stress, and other nagging hiccups the friendship, affection, and emotional love was (and IS) very real.

After reading these posts, I'm fairly convinced the "high" of being IN-LOVE this intensely for so long has put me in a daze state of "fog" that has made me believe everything will "work out fine in the end"... simply because my heart really hopes and wants it to.

At the very least, the comments on this board really shook me up. It would have been nice if I would have heard at least one success story (regarding a divorce for the OW) to balance all the negatives out. Right now I just feel awful and disturbed. Still not sure if this site really did me any favors. Hopefully in the long run it did.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Richard,

What I can say is that I am happy I ended my marriage, even though I went through the steps all backwards. Since leaving my marriage, I've been seeing a very wonderful lady that I love a lot. I am in a much happier place in life, my kids seem well adjusted to the new situation. Not sure about my STBXW, as she has pulled a very solid 180 on me, which has actually made my separation easier.

C


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

6-9 months is the normal duration. That's being with someone all the time. Your relationship with the AP is not normal. So 4+ years is not unique to be IN-LOVE. You've maybe only spent 6-9 months of time with your AP in those 4 years.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Just watched an EXCELLENT video by Dr. Helen Fisher:

Your Love Your Love Is My Drug (And It’s Called Dopamine) | Married Man Sex Life

This video tells my personal story to a perfect "T". No question about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> I haven't completely bailed, but am just lurking for the next day or so. I wouldn't say I hit the "jackpot" for living in a semi-happy marriage for nearly a decade. I believe there are many more marriages that are way better than ours. Either that, or they just put on an excellent front.
> 
> Another reason (if I haven't mentioned this before) why this was so consuming was that the IN-LOVE feelings stayed intensely the same throughout the 4 years. I've read that typically these feelings only last 6-9 months. While the relationship with the OW did not have the burden of problems, financial stress, and other nagging hiccups the friendship, affection, and emotional love was (and IS) very real.
> 
> ...


There are different stages that we go through that are called love. 

One is the initial infatuation that we feel when we first meet somone. That's the one that can last up to 18 months. After that another stage of love kicks in. In a very good, long term relationship it's strong connection like the one you feel with the OW.... "Passionate marriage". This stage has a lot to do with having your needs met and the production of chemicals like dopamine and oxytocin in your body/brain.

I explained this earlier. The more of your needs that are met, the higher your levels of dopamine and oxytocin.

Think of this as glass...your wife keeps your glass more than half full. The OW fills it up the rest of the way. Thus with the affair, between the two women, you have had more of your needs met than most people ever do. Of course you are high (in love). This is why affairs are so seductive.

You are getting very high hits of not only dopamine but oxytocin from the OW. If you and your wife fix your marriage you can get this from your relationship with her.

It's not that the feelings you have from your relationship with the OW are fantasy land... you are getting all those great chemicals. We as humans are supposed to be getting those chemicals in high doses. That's what makes us happy and makes us work our tails off for our loved ones.

The fantasy is that you will have the same level of ecstasy with the OW if you leave your wife. When your wife is gone your glass will less than half full. The problem is that she is not used to the pressure of meeting most of your emotional needs and vice versa. Once you look to her for all of your needs to be met she might very well not want to meet them or be able to meet them. This is why most affairs fall apart once the spouses are out of the picture. 

Some of your needs are for things that your wife does like her keeping a clean and orderly home, taking care of your children, etc. You say that the OW will not keep a clean and orderly home. If you have never lived in a dirty, disorderly home you have no idea how much this can drain you emotionally. Some people have no problem with it. But since you are not used to it this will probably drive you nuts. Are you going to do all the housework if you life with the OW? How about all the grocery shopping?

The way your children will react to the OW will also kill some of those great brain chemicals you have for the OW.

I'm not putting the OW or you down. I'm talking about what happens in these types of situations. Second marriages, when there are children involved, have a more than 70% failure rate.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

My husband could have written your story. He met a woman at work and developed what he thought was a very deep connection. 1.5 years into it, I found his secret email account open on our home computer. In it he told this woman she was his soulmate, his best friend, the person who understood him best in the whole world.

He agreed to break it off and we went to MC for 6+ months. Unbeknownst to me, he recontacted her after just 3 weeks and their relationship started right up again; around the time of our first counseling session, in fact. I never knew.

And so 3 years went by. He wouldn't sleep with me still, which broke my heart, and I often said I could only live like a nun for so long. He often picked fights over little things.

Hardest of all, I started to doubt my ability to "read" him. He seemed to want and expect me to read his mind, but he wasn't letting me in. Not that I fully understood this.

6 months ago, he accidentally texted me instead of his affair partner. The affair had lasted 4.5 years. I told him I was still willing to work on the marriage.

And so he walked away from the "love of his life." This is what he told me:
--he could never be sure she would be faithful, because she was fine with his being married
--she wasn't perfect, but they rarely saw each other's bad side
--their relationship wasn't tested by finances, children, or the difficulties of everyday life in a marriage

I confronted her in person. Guess what she told me! She loved my husband, but HE was NOT her "soulmate."

My husband and I are reconciled. It's amazing how, now that he shares with me what he shared with her, we rarely argue and we are in tune. He has told me that he sees now that his love for me is deeper than it ever was for her.

Thanks for listening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> And so he walked away from the "love of his life." This is what he told me:
> --he could never be sure she would be faithful, because she was fine with his being married
> --she wasn't perfect, but they rarely saw each other's bad side
> --their relationship wasn't tested by finances, children, or the difficulties of everyday life in a marriage
> ...


iheartlife: In my situation I feel very secure about item #1. However, items #2 and #3 were always concerns lurking in the back of my mind. I wonder how your husband felt after he heard her say he was *not* her "soulmate"?

That being said, I think it's incredible and amazing how you guys reconciled... and that you two not only rarely argue but also seem to have regained the "it" factor. When you claim your husband has an even deeper feeling for you than he ever had for her, any thoughts on the possibility he might be just saying that (to make you happy or say what he thinks you would like to hear)? Regardless if that statement is true or not, it really sounds like you both have a fantastic relationship now - and one that I would say is "affair proof".



EleGirl said:


> There are different stages that we go through that are called love.
> 
> One is the initial infatuation that we feel when we first meet somone. That's the one that can last up to 18 months. After that another stage of love kicks in. In a very good, long term relationship it's strong connection like the one you feel with the OW.... "Passionate marriage". This stage has a lot to do with having your needs met and the production of chemicals like dopamine and oxytocin in your body/brain.
> 
> ...


In analyzing this, you are *absolutely* correct. My wife may not have met my emotional needs, but there's definitely dozens of very valuable needs she does fulfill exceptionally well. Although my bond & connection with the OW is real (note: NOT fantasy), I *absolutely* concur I felt the "top 30%-40% of my needs" (the glass the OW fuliflled) felt more important than the other 60%-70%.

In my hardest effort to remove my "love blinders", I realize that I would likely become irritated once the new glass is now only maybe 40% full the missing 60% may likely rub me the wrong way as much as the previous missing 40%. Who knows if the OW would be willing to fulfill a good portion of this missing volume? I suppose if she miraculously was willing (and able) to achieve at least half of it... bringing the glass to 80%+ full the new relationship might seem more "fulfilling" overall.

On the surface, it feels like emotional "happiness & satisfaction" is more important than the "responsible caregiving happiness & satisfaction". But I suppose any way you look at it there will be some level of DISATISFACTION. In a sense of irony, it actually does seem more probable that the wife would be more likely to fulfill SOME of the emotional void that is missing compared to the OW to do a "personality makeover" to become Mrs. "neat-freak". That is definitely NOT in her nature, but is something I always greatly appreciated with the wife.



EleGirl said:


> You are getting very high hits of not only dopamine but oxytocin from the OW. If you and your wife fix your marriage you can get this from your relationship with her.
> 
> It's not that the feelings you have from your relationship with the OW are fantasy land... you are getting all those great chemicals. We as humans are supposed to be getting those chemicals in high doses. That's what makes us happy and makes us work our tails off for our loved ones.
> 
> The fantasy is that you will have the same level of ecstasy with the OW if you leave your wife. When your wife is gone your glass will less than half full. The problem is that she is not used to the pressure of meeting most of your emotional needs and vice versa. Once you look to her for all of your needs to be met she might very well not want to meet them or be able to meet them. This is why most affairs fall apart once the spouses are out of the picture.


This was one of the grave concerns I had. At first I believed this was a minor "solvable issue" but the more I think about it the more I think reality will set in. I said all along about the grass NOT being 'greener on the other side'. But I do believe I was dilusioned into thinking the "top 30%-40%" of the entire glass was more important than the other 60%-70%.



EleGirl said:


> Some of your needs are for things that your wife does like her keeping a clean and orderly home, taking care of your children, etc. You say that the OW will not keep a clean and orderly home. If you have never lived in a dirty, disorderly home you have no idea how much this can drain you emotionally. Some people have no problem with it. But since you are not used to it this will probably drive you nuts. Are you going to do all the housework if you life with the OW? How about all the grocery shopping?


LOL. Boy, you sure remember my comment about the lack of housekeeping  That is definitely not her personality. Although I would absolutely be willing to pickup some of the slack. But I know I would be very annoyed if I was vacuuming and scrubbing and she was sitting on her a*s watching TV.



EleGirl said:


> The way your children will react to the OW will also kill some of those great brain chemicals you have for the OW.
> 
> I'm not putting the OW or you down. I'm talking about what happens in these types of situations. Second marriages, when there are children involved, have a more than 70% failure rate.


You make an excellent point about how our children react. It would gravely hurt my feelings if any of my family treated the OW very poorly. But knowing how much my family loves my wife (especially the kids), I can imagine some animosity cannot be escaped. And you're right - it would instantly be a buzz kill. My hope would be (in this situation) that over time the family would learn to love and appreciate the OW for who she is instead of disliking her for who she's not (or being a part in breaking up the marriage).

Wow, EleGirl. This recent post of yours was incredibly insightful... and IMO one of the most constructive responses I've heard since I started this thread. Thank you so much for caring enough to offer these honest words of advice. I'm sure it's very hard for most of you to see beyond the "jerk" I have become, so I fully commend the minority % of people on here who have shown some tact and acceptance for our differences (and my obvious mistakes).

You really nailed this one, EleGirl, as many of you others have. I truly feel I am finally coming out of this fog I haved lived inside for so many years.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

On a side note...

I am amazed at how incredibly FAST and RESPONSIVE people have been in chiming in their $0.02 on the subject. I'm getting the feeling this website is more addicting than any daytime "reality" talk show!

There has definitely been a lot of GENUINE heated moments here & there.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

PBear said:


> Richard,
> 
> What I can say is that I am happy I ended my marriage, even though I went through the steps all backwards. Since leaving my marriage, I've been seeing a very wonderful lady that I love a lot. I am in a much happier place in life, my kids seem well adjusted to the new situation. Not sure about my STBXW, as she has pulled a very solid 180 on me, which has actually made my separation easier.
> C


Hello PBear. I'm not sure if this is the one "success story" (on the flipside) I was initially seeking. By any chance was this OW in the picture for any period of time before you and your wife divorced? Or did you meet this person long after you guys separated.

In my case, I was specifically looking for some other examples (besides the 3 I have been personally exposed to) where things have worked out when a person leaves a spouse for another love.

At this point, as sad as I currently feel I don't believe the new RELATIONSHP would be successful... probably no where near as successful as in the more narrow confines of when it was an affair. As much as my heart really wanted things to work out with the OW, the odds really seem stacked against it... and the more I think about the possible impact on the 3 children the more sick to the stomache I get.

Even though I greatly love this OW, I do have a lot of guilt and sad feelings toward the neglect (and potential loss) my wife would have felt as well. Just because I'm in love with someone else doesn't mean I don't have any feelings for the person I've lived with for so many years. We have a lot of history together and 3 beautiful children (the MAIN thing we have in common).

It would be awesome if my wife and I can fix things to the level that IHEARTLIFE had experienced. Considering the changes I've seen this past year, I actually do think the potential to that is there. But still... while this audience is likely clapping and applauding that I'm leaning towards breaking it off with the OW my heart is still bleeding profusely over the thought of that too.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm glad your back


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

OP -- I think you have this idea that we all automatically hate YOU. You could not be more wrong. That is probably stemming from you not liking yourself right now. 

Most here don't like what you are DOING, and we don't like what your wife is being put through. But most of the posts are genuine. The people who are posting ( for the most part) want to help you see what is happening around you.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I hate everyone, so its not just you RC.LOL


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

the guy said:


> I hate everyone, so its not just you RC.LOL


Well.....then there is the guy


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> At this point, as sad as I currently feel I don't believe the new RELATIONSHP would be successful... probably no where near as successful as in the more narrow confines of when it was an affair. As much as my heart really wanted things to work out with the OW, the odds really seem stacked against it... and the more I think about the possible impact on the 3 children the more sick to the stomache I get.
> 
> Even though I greatly love this OW, I do have a lot of guilt and sad feelings toward the neglect (and potential loss) my wife would have felt as well. Just because I'm in love with someone else doesn't mean I don't have any feelings for the person I've lived with for so many years. We have a lot of history together and 3 beautiful children (the MAIN thing we have in common).
> 
> It would be awesome if my wife and I can fix things to the level that IHEARTLIFE had experienced. Considering the changes I've seen this past year, I actually do think the potential to that is there. But still... while this audience is likely clapping and applauding that I'm leaning towards breaking it off with the OW my heart is still bleeding profusely over the thought of that too.


Proud of you for even thinking the thought that allowed you to write that.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

The bottom line to this entire scenario is to live an HONEST and GOOD life once and for all. The "no more cheating" policy has already been put in place.

Please don't be harsh on me or the OW. You do not know us. Please also don't over-sympathize (or be harsh) with my wife. You don't know her either.

Either way it goes it's a very serious and life-changing decision. While the woman who fell in love with me may also be "addicted" to the dopamine effect, I am certain that she will never stray or cheat again. Even if we ended up together if things didn't work out I know that she would leave me in dignity (without sleeping around behind my back).

One way or another we owe it to everyone (including ourselves) to not live a lie and secretly sneak around our partner's backs. We both need to be fully dedicated to one person.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

No body knows no body around her, but we all have one thing in common and thats infidelity.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> While the woman who fell in love with me may also be "addicted" to the dopamine effect, *I am certain that she will never stray or cheat again. * Even if we ended up together if things didn't work out I know that she would leave me in dignity (without sleeping around behind my back).


Richard, you can't be certain about what other humans will or won't do. Hell, you can't be certain about what YOU won't do. When you got married, did you envision yourself being unfaithful?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

the guy said:


> No body knows no body around her, but we all have one thing income and thats infidelity.


The Guy, I love you man but what the heck did you just say?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> The Guy, I love you man but what the heck did you just say?


Would make a good tag line for the invite to a swingers ball.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> On a side note...
> 
> I am amazed at how incredibly FAST and RESPONSIVE people have been in chiming in their $0.02 on the subject. I'm getting the feeling this website is more addicting than any daytime "reality" talk show!
> 
> There has definitely been a lot of GENUINE heated moments here & there.


TAM anonymous…


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I wish i could figure out how to paste a qoute.

What I mean is of course we don't know OP or his wife or his ex AP, and its easy for folks to go off on someone (especially if they cheat) but we still have one thing in common.

Sorry I'm watching the Huston Carolina game.

I can bearly spell or type as it is, now I'm trying to watch footbal and post here LOL


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

her = here

Makes perfect sense now.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@count, just like the acronime here at TAM, maybe you guys can have a the-guy apprivation sheet for my posts.

Sorry for the thread jack RC


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Richard, you can't be certain about what other humans will or won't do. Hell, you can't be certain about what YOU won't do. When you got married, did you envision yourself being unfaithful?


Hi Count,

Nobody could be 100.0% certain on anything except death & taxes. But I'm 99.9% sure both OW and myself have learned a very hard lesson with the emotional turmoil we faced along with the stress, etc.

One of the major advantages of having a fresh start for us was the ability to enter into a relationship free & clear of any wrongdoings toward each other. Yes, there would be serious wrongdoings to other people - which is also a major hurdle and must be handled with serious care.

It would be ridiculously stupid to go through all the hell we would need to go through simply just to cheat all over again. We both mutually agreed that just cannot be a possibility - otherwise what would be the point. We also would go into it with the mindset of trying our absolute hardest to make things work... knowing the odds are stacked against our favor.

The fortunate flipside to this is that if the OW and myself stay with our spouses we will surely try our hardest to make it work (or possibly exit out in divorce to be single). The OW and myself are no longer riding the fence any longer... 4 years is way too long already.

Wow. Can't believe I'm still typing on this board when I told myself I was gonna be a lurker. Will resume being a lurker for a while again, so no offense if you don't see or hear from me the rest of the night (hopefully the weekend).


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Whew! Now that was an interesting read.........

OP -

Yes, people do leave marriages & families for affair partners all the time. 

But remember, the affair relationship's "foundation" is based on lies, dishonesty, deceit & sneaking around. Not a great way to start a new relationship.

Another option for you is to wait for your children to all turn 18 & go off to college. Then you can divorce your wife & be with the OW. Her children are grown already.

If the OW is "the great love of your life" then she will wait for you.

I was in an abusive marriage & waited for my children to turn 18, go to college & then I walked. I have no regrets waiting & it was the best decision for my children.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Wait I thought he did, I coild of sworn he was going to dumb the AP?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> EI, that post was so beautiful, and so wise and heartfelt that it made me tear up a little.
> 
> If it did not make Richard tear up, well, then he is in a whole lot of trouble. And needs IC ASAP.


Thanks MM, I just saw this post. TAM needs a tag feature like Facebook so that when someone makes a comment about you, you get a notice so that you can acknowledge it. 

I've avoided this thread today, for the most part, because the OP reminds me so much of myself, just two months ago, that it's a huge trigger for me and if I let it, it could put me in a very bad state of mind. I know that no matter what anyone says to him, right now, that there is no reaching him.... not right now. It's bouncing right off of him. His posts sound so much like my earlier posts that I can almost predict exactly what he is going to say before he says it. And, what's worse is that I believe that all of this condemnation might very well be strengthening his resolve to do what he "thinks he is entitled to do." He is in a very narcissistic frame of mind. And, I'm rolling my eyes at myself as I type this because I know he doesn't believe that and I know that I sounded just like him. It's a very painful look in the mirror for me. He thinks we don't understand.... and the truth is, he may very well be in an unhappy marriage.... I was in an unhappy marriage.... and that's the truth. But, my marriage got a whole lot unhappier while I was in the affair.... because then *EVERYTHING* was B1's fault. It took me at least three weeks before I honestly acknowledged, even to myself, that my affair was *not *100% *B1's* fault.  And you know why I believed that my affair was 100% B1's fault???.....* Because ALL of the problems in our marriage were his fault, too!* I certainly hope you all are getting the sarcasm, here.

I don't see a happy ending with this story, for anyone, ... not for this guy, his wife, his OW, the OW's husband, all of the children. Because the truth is, I would have never come out of the fog that I was in if B1 was not the incredible man that he is. He saved me, saved us, saved our marriage. He loved me through every bit of my fog..... he loved me when he was in so much gut wrenching, heartbreaking, end of life as you've known it kind of pain that we did nothing for days but sit around and cry and hold each other. If the OP is reading, let me tell you this. The wife that "hasn't been so terrible".... that has given you a "semi-happy marriage" while you gave *ALL* of the best of yourself to your OW..... just imagine if you had given your wife that love, that time, that devotion. I'm not discounting that you're unhappy.... I was, too, for a very long time. You know what my husband did for me the first 3 weeks after D-Day.... and this probably didn't go over well on TAM.... no, it *didn't* go well here. He held me, he loved me, he kissed me, he comforted me and he let me cry.... and you know why I was crying? I was crying over losing my AP..... and he knew that... but the man that I was so sure did not love me..... he loved me! But, your wife, doesn't know and you don't plan to tell her. So, meanwhile, you have lost respect for her because you think she is your doormat. You have a very rude awakening and that isn't an "if," it's a "when." Your world is going to come crashing down.... and that won't even be the worst part.... it's when the world of your family and the OW's family comes crashing down around you that you'll realize what you've done..... and then it will be too late to stop it. You have a chance to start doing the right thing right now. Stop lying.... Stop deceiving.... Stop cheating.... Stop it..... everyone deserves better than this... OMG, I have become "one of them." One of those evil TAM People....


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

What saddens me the most is that even if Richard does do he right thing he will forever believe he has given up something good, more perfect, more loving.

He will believe he has sacrificed himself and he will never tell his wife of two decades the truth. that will be the end of the marriage in a few months or years.

The other thing I think may have happened is that is wife may have built a life without him, gained emotional strength and moved on to be her own person within the marriage. 
Richard will probably not recognize her when he comes out of the FOG.he has been gone for four long years. 

The loss he will feel there will be monumental because he won't have noticed the subtle shifts, the incremental distancing she will have been doing. 

I hold out very little hope for the marriage . The relationship with the OW is a moot point since she has already told him she will not leave her H for Richard. How hard is that after four years.

I hope he stays with us and I thank him for this thread. it looks almost identical to the other stories. An affair really does drop humans to a animal state of need and want of the "now "eclipsing everything else. 

Good luck Richard. Your a long, long way from where you need to be. i sincerely hope you can become that man of integrity you used to be. It is crushing to realize that you are not who you thought you were. BS get this thrust on them and are forced to deal with all in one go. 

"Time is just memory and desire.' [Tom waits]


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> I absolutely agree that "men of integrity" CHOOSE to be that way (not because there aren't other fish in the sea).
> 
> For 36 years I led a life of high integrity. Little-by-little... the sense of integrity started to dwindle (and yes, I allowed it).



We all make mistakes. None of us are any better than you. You just need to remember the kind of man that you were, and try to be that man again for the sake of yourself. You can be that man again. It is very possible.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

ing said:


> What saddens me the most is that even if Richard does do he right thing he will forever believe he has given up something good, more perfect, more loving.
> 
> He will believe he has sacrificed himself and he will never tell his wife of two decades the truth. that will be the end of the marriage in a few months or years.
> 
> ...


I would hope that every WS with children at home is able to see that their wonderful AP is, at the very best, indifferent to the destruction of their children's family and lives.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

If I was your wife and found about your 4 yr. affair from you or someone else, I would leave you.

I don't do sloppy seconds.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Emerald said:


> If I was your wife and found about your 4 yr. affair from you or someone else, I would leave you.
> 
> I don't do sloppy seconds.


I get it. But I worry when threads about OP's own situation get into what would or would not be a deal breaker for various posters in the hypothetical. I don't see what it adds and because it is in the abstract and with a very limited view it doesn't seem all that meaningful. Good luck Richard. Do the right thing.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Uuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm...............here is current thread about what is happening to two cheaters that were once soulmates.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/53342-im-positive-i-became-ea-victim-today-help.html


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I get it. But I worry when threads about OP's own situation get into what would or would not be a deal breaker for various posters in the hypothetical. I don't see what it adds and because it is in the abstract and with a very limited view it doesn't seem all that meaningful. Good luck Richard. Do the right thing.


I may have missed something important in all the replies. I did read the original post carefully. The OP appears to be asking if he should divorce his wife for another woman so he could be happier but is conflicted because of his children ONLY. 

He clearly states that if he did not have children, he would leave his wife.

My point as a wife & mother myself, is that I would leave him!

So you see, if his wife finds about a 4-yr. affair & that he is in love with OW, then maybe she will leave him & he will not have to make the painful choice.

Just another way to look at things.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I may have missed something important in all the replies. I did read the original post carefully. The OP appears to be asking if he should divorce his wife for another woman so he could be happier but is conflicted because of his children ONLY.
> 
> He clearly states that if he did not have children, he would leave his wife.
> 
> ...


All sorts of fall out possible. That prospect has been raised.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> It would be ridiculously stupid to go through all the hell we would need to go through simply just to cheat all over again. We both mutually agreed that just cannot be a possibility - otherwise what would be the point. We also would go into it with the mindset of trying our absolute hardest to make things work... knowing the odds are stacked against our favor.


 You would probably be shocked by the amount of people who said that very same thing, but then found out the person they cheated with engages in another affair a few years after they begin their relationship. The truth of it all is that you both learned when it gets bad at home, you simply find someone to make it go away. That isn't a habit you can just STOP, and every relationship has times where it can get bad in the home, whether its for days or weeks.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD said:


> You would probably be shocked by the amount of people who said that very same thing, but then found out the person they cheated with engages in another affair a few years after they begin their relationship. The truth of it all is that you both learned when it gets bad at home, you simply find someone to make it go away. That isn't a habit you can just STOP, and every relationship has times where it can get bad in the home, whether its for days or weeks.


Well, at least if it took me 20 years to cheat. If I'm with the OW hopefully I will be 60+ years old (20 years later) so it doesn't matter then anyway. One way to look at it.

Either way, the solution is to leave BEFORE children are present (not cheat).


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> Well, at least if it took me 20 years to cheat. If I'm with the OW hopefully I will be 60+ years old (20 years later) so it doesn't matter then anyway. One way to look at it.
> 
> Either way, the solution is to leave BEFORE children are present (not cheat).


How long did it take her to cheat? Is this the first time she has? How can you be sure that she is telling the truth on that?

I have to wonder OP, will you two turn to each other to talk about how much your children/family/friends all despise your "love" and how it came to play? I can't imagine wanting to talk about what's wrong and having to stare at someone and say " Baby, I am so upset. My kids hate you and hope you.....blah blah blah". Have you guys talked about how to handle any/all fallout that would occur?


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Well, at least if it took me 20 years to cheat. If I'm with the OW hopefully I will be 60+ years old (20 years later) so it doesn't matter then anyway. One way to look at it.
> 
> Either way, the solution is to leave BEFORE children are present (not cheat).


Yes thats one way to look at it. But what if she cheats first eh??

I think my POV is convoluted at best but if someone's willing to cheat with you they can also cheat on you just as easily. And given that both of you are cheating on your spouses. it only tells me one thing. That the both of you prefer to avoid problems rather than confronting them. And pair two people who deal with situations by escaping from them, you'll have a fine time when difficult times come, and they do.

Next some statistics about marriages resulting from affairs.

Only 3% of affair relationships ever end up in marriage. But I'll give it 10% at best.

And 75% of those marriages fail.

That gives you a 0.75% to about 2.5% chance of happily ever after with the love of your life. Although its still a possibility and believe me people have won medals in 1/100ths of a second.

Now lets look at what divorce is going to cost you now- half your marital assets and more importantly losing time with your children. A small setback I think.

Now you marry the AP and then a few years down the line something happens and one of you might cheat on the other since I'd like interpolate that most people fall into the category of 97.5% who have bad marriages if they marry their affair partners. And then you're headed for another divorce. So thats about half your marital assets there and if you do end up having children , you get joint custody again with her being the primary custodian.

Now if your future wife was the vindictive sort, she'd milk you off your last penny and definitely reschedule visitations and cause all sorts of problems. I mean she did go behind her ex husband's back when she was carrying on an affair with you right? She can surely do nastier things.

Which brings me to the final question, Is it really worth it? If its a yes, then I wish you the best in life. If its a no, you'll probably want to end your affair and come clean. Even then your current wife may divorce you so you're kind of in a bad position either way.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> Yes thats one way to look at it. But what if she cheats first eh??
> 
> I think my POV is convoluted at best but if someone's willing to cheat with you they can also cheat on you just as easily. And given that both of you are cheating on your spouses. it only tells me one thing. That the both of you prefer to avoid problems rather than confronting them.
> 
> ...


Given the research I've done (both on success of post-divorce marriages as well as marriages born from affairs) the percentages you mention are absolutely correct... and it's very scary.

I have analyzed & over-analyzed this whole scenario up the ying-yang. I believe the new relationship would be convoluted with problems... and these problems are just the problems I'm aware of (chances are there will be a whole lot more I didn't anticipate).

I am very certain neither of us would cheat again. If the 2nd relationship doesn't work, I know one (or the other) would end up leaving instead of cheating. The thought of that is equally devastating considering all the hell that would be sacrificed and gone through just to get there in the first place.

Also... the OW and myself (for whatever reason) seem to be better communicators with each other. We both have openly discussed very difficult subjects and have opened up on a lot of things... stuff that (for whatever reason) we sadly have never felt comfortable discussing with our own spouses. Please remember my wife and I developed & formed the foundation of our relationship at a very young (and immature) age. The same holds true with the OW.

My relationship with the OW had as many advantages (maturity) as disadvantages (foundation from cheating). Neither of us are going to have any more children. We're both at an age where no more kids is pretty much mandatory  Besides... I'm already "fixed".

If I stay with my wife, this means I have made the decision to NOT attempt to live the rest of my life with a person I consider to be the love of my life. Coming clean would cause severe emotional turmoil to my wife, and... at best... things will never be the same again. At worst, we will end up in divorce anyway (great consolation prize for doing the "right thing") at this point. Everybody loses if I stay and come clean... although there is probably a 0.75% - 2.5% chance wife and I enter marriage counseling and be one of those miraculous couples that survive an affair into a BETTER relationship than before (like some of the posters on this board have experienced).

If I stay with my wife and keep the affair hidden from her, I will have this terrible secret until the day I die (which... I suppose it's possible the pain of the secret will fade over time). If, in the future, the truth of the affair is exposed I could deal with it (in similar fashion as mentioned above) if that bridge becomes crashing down sometime down-the-road - assuming the same 0.75%-2.5% chance of success.

Or, I can come clean with my wife and ask for divorce because I am deeply in love with someone else with the knowledge the new relationship is probably more likely in the 0.75%-1% chance (and not the 2.5% chance). I am very confident that neither of us will ever cheat again. I'm not as confident the problems of the newer relationship will not be so overbearing that causes either party to leave. We both (obviously) have discussed how important it is to WORK THROUGH all the problems, and we both agree it would be idiotic and stupid to throw away 2 marriages just to end in divorce again. I feel very confident there will NOT be any cheating or future affairs... from either side. However, what I do know is that if the OW decided to leave me (because the path is too rough to handle), I believe it's likely she will fight to get as much as she can from me after my first wife does. I believe she would be a lot more "kinder" about it if she is the one leaving, but if I was to leave it would be brutality all over again. BTW... if the OW and I were to end up together I am NOT planning on leaving.

The sad truth (just like ING said in a previous post), is that EVEN if I stay with my wife... and even if the affair becomes permanently buried out of view... I will likely forever feel that I have missed out on being with the love of my life for the rest of my life. Granted, it would come at the benefit of not causing destruction to the other parties - which would give some peace of mind. So not only would I keep a terrible secret, but also I would feel I wasn't strong enough to 'man up' to my feelings and follow through to be with this other person.

On the flipside, I have seen huge improvements in my wife just this past year... and I can honestly say that I have not gotten along better with my wife FOR SEVERAL YEARS as I have this past year. I have lived with SEVERAL years of an emotional void, resentment, contempt, complete disregard for my relationship with my wife (not the family - the "family unit" aspect I always felt relatively happy with, I'm speaking specifically the relationship with my wife). The improvements I have seen my wife make indicate to me she actually IS willing to try her best to make things better. Keep in mind any improvements were NEVER serious before. They would always go by the wayside and I was always left feeling down in the dumps and severely disappointed time & time again.

In the past, none of the improvements ever really "stuck". It was always convenient to improve at the time simply because the cage got "rattled", but always eventually going back to same old thing. Sadly, it literally took ME MOVING OUT OF THE HOUSE to cause that "wake up call" for my wife to take me seriously. I can actually see that she's trying to make a 180 degree improvement. There are still some things that tend to "revert back to the norm" here & there but so many other things have permanently gotten better. I, too, have made some positive changes as well. But my improvements are only a small fraction of hers - and I think the reason why is that for the last year I have remained in love with the OW. How can I possibly do a 180 degree turn in my wife's favor if I'm not "all-in" with my wife to begin with? So even though I, too, have made some positive changes the only way my changes can really be significant is if the OW and I break up.

To all of you the notion to breakup with the OW is the easiest and most obvious choice... but when you have been stuck in the "fog" for 4 years not just being in love but MADLY in love consistently with another person (and believe without a doubt she is the love of your life), it's a serious painful idea to let her go. The OW has excelled in spades at meeting all of my emotional needs that have been absent with my wife. In trying to analyze myself as impartially as possible, I can probably admit the needs that were most important to me were simply the needs I was missing. And in the new relationship, I know there will be OTHER needs that will likely be absent (and missing).

I guess I have lived a life as a "cake-eater" for the past 4 years. EVERY NEED I HAD IN THE BOOK... you name it was completely met.

I'm still not certain if there are members in this community that had an affair and later had great success leaving wife & family for OW. It would be nice to hear from the small % of those relationships that ended in success. I have heard some stories of people divorcing... then developing a relationship with a new woman and being MUCH happier than they ever have been in the past. But this isn't the same as the affair relationship.

To those who are interested in the BEST way I should handle my life moving forward, I wonder what option they would choose:

a) Permanently breakup with OW. Come clean with wife and watch the marriage crumble with turmoil emotions... with a very high % chance ending in divorce anyway.

b) Permanently breakup with OW. Keep secret from wife. Being completely broken up with OW (including the very strong hope of ever ending up together) would allow me to make permanent improvements on the marriage (instead of half-assed ones that were made this past year).

- If the affair remains a secret, I'm left with a hopefully dwindling feeling of guilt coupled with the remaining feeling I still gave up the love of my life to keep this marriage (but also happy family) together.

- If the affair is still caught, I may suddenly find myself in situation (a) all over again.

c) Permanently breaking up with wife. Owning up to my actions, and why I am leaving and have been so unhappy these past several years. This option feels very cruel, but only because she has made SIGNIFICANT improvements this past year (and really stepped up to the plate). If she was exactly the way she was several years prior I would not feel nearly as terrible about this. But at least in doing this option (c), I would also be living a true and honest life... which would lead to 2 sub outcomes:

- The OW truly IS the love of my life I imagined her to be. The lifestyle we have is a huge mess with heavy challenge after challenge but love & emotionally we are completely fulfilled and even though life is hard we stay together for the rest of our lives (and hopefully our spouses and children have moved on with the situation).

- The OW and I are living in misery. Not only are the financial hardships too severe to manage but let's also assume the possibility one of us comes to the conclusion the other person was NOT the love of their life as we had thought (you guys may laugh but I seriously DOUBT that is the case, but whatever). Regardless of the reason (financial vs. emotional), but in either case NOBODY cheats behind spouse's back but instead ends in divorce. But ending in divorce would only mean even WORSE financial hardship (for BOTH). So maybe even in this scenario divorce really isn't an option. Hmmmmm... I wonder if this could mean another likely scenario instead... if OW is TERRIBLY UNHAPPY might she (a few years down the road) instead "cheat" behind my back (in some kind of self-preservation mode) try to hook up with a rich millionaire? And (in order to get away from the TERRIBLE LIVING conditions living with a man who loves and adores her so much) she prefers to "get out" of the stress by (hopefully) finding a very rich guy? And even if (with him) life isn't all "fireworks"... she basically ends up with a life that I ONCE HAD with current wife and I am left in the doldrums alone?


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

You know what I think you should do? I think you should end your affair and spend however long it takes recapturing that feeling of passion and connection with your wife. Do not ever tell her about the affair. Try your hardest to make sure she never finds out either. People may not like that I'm saying that but I can see no upside to telling your wife.
I actually feel bad for you Richard, you're in a tough place.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

P.S. with extreme passion and connection often comes the extreme uglier side of things --- insane insecurity, suicidal tendencies etc.

Im a very very all or nothing woman, developing deep connections to those I love. When things go awry, I go off the deep end. Don't put that past the OW


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> - The OW and I are living in misery. Not only are the financial hardships too severe to manage but let's also assume the possibility one of us comes to the conclusion the other person was NOT the love of their life as we had thought (you guys may laugh but I seriously DOUBT that is the case, but whatever). Regardless of the reason (financial vs. emotional), but in either case NOBODY cheats behind spouse's back but instead ends in divorce. But ending in divorce would only mean even WORSE financial hardship (for BOTH). So maybe even in this scenario divorce really isn't an option. Hmmmmm... I wonder if this could mean another likely scenario instead... if OW is TERRIBLY UNHAPPY might she (a few years down the road) instead "cheat" behind my back (in some kind of self-preservation mode) try to hook up with a rich millionaire? And (in order to get away from the TERRIBLE LIVING conditions living with a man who loves and adores her so much) she prefers to "get out" of the stress by (hopefully) finding a very rich guy? And even if (with him) life isn't all "fireworks"... she basically ends up with a life that I ONCE HAD with current wife and I am left in the doldrums alone?


Ok man, you have seriously flipped your lid. Now you are writing Hollywood screen treatments to come up with all of the what-if's.

Seriously, I think you are having a nervous breakdown. Have you considered seeing a doctor to discuss your mind set. It's not unusual for a person to have a nervous breakdown over a situation like the one you are in.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Soulmate Schmoopies

PART 1: WH and OW–Our Love is Real « Soul Mate Shmoopies


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Mr. Collier~

Just so you know, I have held off replying to this thread because I've been here on TAM for two ears now. I have been both a loyal and a disloyal spouse, and I knew that the initial response to your posts would be effectively flaming, blasting and generalizations about how evil all disloyals are. I figured if you had the balls to stay the course--then you had some courage and MIGHT have a chance of listening. If not, then I figured you had your mind made up and there was no point in posting to you anyway  

Nothing personal...it does sound to me as if you are scrambling and doing everything possible to lead to one result and one result only: leaving your wife and hooking up with the OW. So before I take the time to reply, with eyes wide open and having been on both sides, let me ask you this: *Are you really willing to listen to caring, wise advice that is the truth?* Or do you only want to hear statistics and encouragement to continue your affair? If I take the time to itemize for you, in rational, reasonable terms, the repercussions of leaving your wife and breaking up your family, will your heart be open to hearing the words of someone trying gravely to save you from a lifetime of heartache? Because if the only thing your heart is open to hear is "Go with your OW. You deserve to be happy! That's true love!" then I don't see any reason to continue!

So as much as you keep telling us that we are not open to the possibility that you and the OW really could be happy together and she could be the love of your life (etc.), I challenge you on your own accusation of us. I am concerned you are not open to the possibility that maybe...just MAYBE...you have justified your adultery so deeply that you don't want to hear those of us who actually DO care, who actually have lived through both sides of what you are considering, and who are sincerely trying to save you from a world of hurt! 

I see that you had the courage to stick around past the initial volley of flame. I give you your due for that, and it seems to me if you have THAT much courage, maybe you'll have the courage to hear. So I'm going to take a chance and I'm going to respond to you, in full...in detail...and I will pray that you will keep an open mind to hear my words. 

I am working on my reply right now.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Soulmate Schmoopies
> 
> PART 1: WH and OW–Our Love is Real « Soul Mate Shmoopies


I sometimes wonder if all this is redundant when I watch that series..


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

OP --- I will not vote in your poll. Why? Well, because your statements and actions have shown me two things.

a.) Your first and foremost concern is that you aren't left alone. You want either your wife or your OW, and if there is a chance that you won't have one of them, then you will do nothing.

b.) You will not give your wife the truth, and let her see that it isn't HER that is tearing it all apart, it is YOU. You are willing to allow her to assume complete responsibility for any and all failings in the marriage to avoid having to accept responsibility for anything. Why? Because whatever way you choose, you want to keep the OW and your wife on the hook. If OW rejects you, you want to be able to go back to your wife. If your wife rejects you, you want to ensure OW is still available. 

That tells me that no matter what we advise or try to show you, you are going to make sure those two things are the top priority, no matter who you hurt or how many people you hurt in the process.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

DawnD said:


> OP --- I will not vote in your poll. Why? Well, because your statements and actions have shown me two things.
> 
> a.) Your first and foremost concern is that you aren't left alone. You want either your wife or your OW, and if there is a chance that you won't have one of them, then you will do nothing.
> 
> ...


DawnD: Regarding your theory of (a)... I am actually more afraid of causing UNDUE and UNNECESSARY TRAUMA AND HURT than being alone. If the past several years was an awful marriage (i.e., wife turned into a vindictive b*tch, severe lack of respect, or other severe problems, etc.) I would have left that relationship long ago in a heartbeat - just to BE AWAY from the relationship. Even being alone would be far better than in an abusive relationship.

You are INCORRECT by saying that "if I can't have either of them, I would do nothing". I have already stopped the physical relationship of the affair for the time being until this issue gets resolved. The OW and I are still in love and have strong feelings, but the PA aspect is on hold for now... and indefinitely until if a time comes when we are together 24/7 in a real non-secretive relationship. Believe me, Dawn,... it took an insane amount of will power to do this but I had to. Like the other poster said, living in limbo for 4 years I feel has put me in a near nervous breakdown. I also wanted to take some small steps to regain some of my integrity back. So yes, I actually HAVE made changes.

Secondly, I have already stated that one way or another I'm going to "sh*t" or get off the pot. The whole point of this discussion was NOT so I could miraculously find a way to continue having a secretive affair!!!!!!!!! The whole point was to gain knowledge and support to make the BEST decision (leaving the wife vs. leaving the OW).

Lastly (item b of your post), I never said the affair was my wife's fault. I never said the gradual separation from my wife... building a "chasm" between us was all my wife's fault. The gradual aloofness and emotional separation is BOTH of our faults. In my posts, I only outlined the areas that gravely rubbed ME the wrong way. But I'm also certain there are areas that rubbed HER the wrong way. I'm positive all relationships have some "give and take". Please understand the initial 3-5 years of us BUILDING our relationship (my wife and I) had the unfortunate DISADVANTAGE of coming from two immature kids. We fell into many pitfalls and traps, and have also developed our usual "patterns of interaction".

The "patterns of interaction" the OW and I have developed had the very strong advantages of maturity and also only having "the best" of each other (and I realize that). I have always realized that, and was something the OW and I have talked about.

I do agree that my wife does have the RIGHT to know what has happened. And if I do leave my wife, I have already come to the conclusion that she must know the truth (even though if I could avoid the painful details I would spare her). If I stay with my wife, I feel I must either confess and tell her the whole truth or perhaps just do everything in my power to rekindle not only the romance but also building & re-building a greater bond with her... in hopes of capturing something remotely close to the "foggy" bond I have felt and experienced with the OW. If I choose to be with my wife either way I MUST discontinue the affair. I cannot live a life of honesty or integrity by keeping the OW on the side. There would be no point in making the choice (to be with my wife) if I can't stay on track to be faithful to her.

Hotdog's opinion is the one I am leaning towards. In the past, that was what both the OW and myself attempted to do. We work in close proximity, so the breaking up made the separation near impossible because we were (and still are) both madly in love with each other. We both also felt enough hope that things would work out in our favor (to be together), that we slipped back into the affair relationship again.

The difference between now vs. then is a number of things. One, is that I cannot function in limbo anymore. It's driving me insane, and it's killing me. Two, is that I'm at the point where I'm disgusted at myself for ****ting on my wife and family for so long. While I have never "justified" the affair because I was in an unhappy relationship, I was trying to explain IN MY PARTICULAR SITUATION the stressors of living in what is called a "SEMI-HAPPY" marriage. Things aren't bad enough to leave the wife & family so you can be single and date again. Things aren't good enough to feel emotional fulfillment and satisfaction. Living like this is like living in a ticking time-bomb, and I have since learned (after the fact), these types of relationships are most at risk of emotional/physical affairs... which... down the road have a high risk of divorce. Hence... my own position with this thread I started. I am one individual soul in this predicament. I have brought this on myself.

This is not a case where I want OW to reject me so I can crawl back to my wife. Neither is this a case where I want to choose my wife (and have her divorce me because of the emotiona/physical affair) and have me "crawing back" to the love of my life.

I want to make a WILLFUL CHOICE to be man and be the best provider I can be - whether it be towards my wife or the OW. I want to start living honestly again. I need to feel better about myself as a human being. Once & after I'm able to do that, then I know I can be a MUCH BETTER HUSBAND toward either partner. Cheating on the side only gives both parties a "half-ass" version of me.

Whether I choose my wife or the OW, there can be no more "flip-flopping" or going back. I know I am capable of making improvements about myself too.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Affaircare: Please enlighten me with your experience. Even though I'm over 40, I know I do not have enough wisdom on the subject to be an expert. All I do know is that I DO know myself very well, and can differentiate between reality and fantasy. I know my feelings are real. I just worry if my belief everything will succeed may be the fantasy part.

HotDogs: Thank you for speaking up with your honest opinion (even if unfavorable). The OW and myself a while back have previous attempted to break things off (which was my choice back then). During that period, I have witnessed much terror, dismay, and that "extreme insecurity" you mentioned. Not just with the OW but myself too. I was hurting on the inside because all I wanted was to spend my life with her (but felt I couldn't deal with the damage to my family). I visibly saw her severely hurting on the outisde as well as the inside. She was totally crushed. I have learned through Dr. Helen's video about dopamine effecets is that a much more powerful stressor to the pleasurable feelings of being IN LOVE is the terrible & awful feelings of rejection. In many ways, that's a much STRONGER motivator than the happy in-love feelings are.

I have also experienced this first-hand when my OW rejected me. OMG... all of a sudden I was willing to do crazy things to win her back! It's been quite a roller-coaster ride. Neither the OW or myself would have acted the way we do if we were not truly in-love with each other. Nor would I have prevented divorce if I didn't care about my family.

I just want to make choices for the RIGHT reasons (not the wrong ones). I don't want to just "hang up" the relationship (and give up the love of my life) to back to my wife and family just because it's a "safer and more secure place to be". I need to have love and passion in either relationship too. Likewise, I don't want to cause unnecessary pain & suffering (on both sides) to end up in a relationship that's destined for failure.

I really hope this dilmena makes sense to everyone. I can't be alone out there with having these types of feelings and concerns.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Everyone else: In the meantime, I'm still lurking and paying attention. I didn't come here to just "vent" and look for the 1 solitary poster to say "you GO man... you DESERVE a happier life".

I came on here because extreme care must be taken on either account. I'm not just responsible for my life, but also the lives of others too. It may have taken me 4 years to fully realize this, but least I'm here now.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Divorce your wife. She deserves better. She deserves a man who will love her the way you say you love OM. 

TAM folks, the following is a cynical suggestion designed to get OP to think about his situation. It is not actual advice.

OR... you could offer your wife an open marriage. You can have your true love and she can be free to date other men as well. Mean time you both remain married and pretend to be a happy couple for the children and friends. I mean, you wife deserves the same shot at happiness as you. Let her date.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay thanks for your patience while I type. I tend to have long replies and thus, I let people know that "it's coming"  However, if I could summarize, your marriage was what you term "semi-happy" meaning that it's not so much that you two fought like demons or your wife was raving or anything--you got along okay, owned a home together, raised children, put yourselves through school or advanced in your career...and it was a like a business partnership at best. There was no passion--either the good passion (such as intense lovemaking or deep emotional connection) or the bad passion (such as throwing pans at each other and screaming in Italian). And thus, four years ago, you met a woman who piqued your interest a bit, and from there it grew into friendship and you got to know her, and from there it grew into "love." Now you are contemplating whether you should end your marriage to go be with the OW because she is the love of your life and obviously your soulmate. Is that about where we stand? 

I notice that the initial volley was a bit roughish on you, and to be honest TAM can be that way on disloyal spouses for a couple of reasons. The top, of course, is that many/most of the people here are the loyal spouses who either had no clue and tripped over their spouse's affair...or they had some clue, discovered the truth and with it all the lies over the years, and as loyal spouses they are deeply betrayed. Another reason TAM can be toughish on disloyals is that, in my opinion, some of the loyal spouses don't really want to hear what we disloyals wrestle with in our head. As a loyal spouse it can be really hard to hear that in one way or another they participated in the current state of affairs, and for example for myself, if I say that usually people assume I am "blaming the loyal spouse" but I'm not. I'm saying that in order to save DISLOYAL spouses sometimes we have to hear the mess because that truly what is in there! In the same way, in order to save LOYAL spouses sometimes we need to hear a rant or a vent or what is truly in their head that is hurtful and hard, because it is the truth! Both ways, what happens is that if you do not give someone the safe place to say what's truly on their mind and heart...they will eventually go away, and that does not accomplish our goal of helping the person to think clearly and make informed, educated choices for themselves based on the REAL truth. 

So although it was tough, I'm very glad you stuck it out and most definitely DO encourage you to keep telling what you really do think and feel. I will warn you however, that what I'm going to do is take what you think and what you feel and point out the inconsistencies and irregularies so that you can see for yourself the TRUTH. Right now, I know you don't realize it, but you are in a bit of what we call "the fog"--and no the fog is not only the initial infatuation feelings a person has while in an affair. That is one way of sort of explaining it, but in reality "the fog" is a mixture of the brain chemicals that almost make returning to the affair a compulsion (even when you realize the great cost and want to stop) and a mix of the layers of denial and justification and frankly misinformation that you have coated your affair in. I'll give you one little example that is actually misinformation: "An affair is a love story." Our society sort of teaches us this, not so much with slogans and memorization at school, but rather in subtle ways like writing about celebrities and glamorizing their adultery as if that is "news"...and through TV shows like "Desperate Housewives"...and through movies. It's sort of implied that faithfulness is boring and old-fashioned, and that "love" is meeting someone's eyes across a crowded room and "knowing" that they are your soulmate...star-crossed lovers who overcome all odds to be together...blah blah blah.  But see, that's misinformation. An affair is NOT a love story on any level. 

In real life, a man and a woman meet and do "little things" that attract interest. They take the time to do those "little things" and personal issues and quality flaws are not really known that much. They continue make the time and make the effort for each other, and eventually they stand before their diety, their family, the government and make promises to each other regarding forsaking others, raising a family, and splitting assets. In real life, they get to know each other more, and a few of the spouse's habits are irritating and some of their personality flaws were brought to life. In real life, they grow complacent and start to neglect "the little things." In real life, the irritating things accumulate: bills, kids, fights. In real life, rather than turning to each other AS THEY PROMISED, they turn elsewhere--to someone at work or in a class or someone with a mutual interest. They give their loyalty and affection to someone other than their spouse. The more they give to the other person, the more irritating the spouse seems. They leave their spouse for the other person, but due to the divorce, they only get to see their kids half the time now...at best. Due to the divorce they lose the house and any equity, so the kids don't get to keep their bedroom, their friends, their school, or their life. They also have to pay to support their kids--either way no matter which spouse had the affair, they have to contribute to their children somehow so that money no longer goes to the affair partner. The AP begins to realize you don't have the money they thought you did. You can't get all those gifts, pay for rent, and take them out to dinner. In real life, they get to know you more, and a few of your habits are irritating and some of their personality flaws were brought to life. In real life, they grow complacent and start to neglect "the little things." In real life, the irritating things accumulate: bills, kids, fights. In real life, rather than turning to you AS THEY PROMISED, they turn elsewhere--because they have already demonstrated they have that as a personality trait and character quality. 

Now you tell me...does that sound like "a love story" to you? Or does that sound like a DISASTER? So you can see that some of what we are told by society is frankly just plain wrong. Affairs are NOT love stories. Another misinformation: that divorce is "no-fault" and that an affair doesn't make any difference in the break down of a marriage. I personally think judges and legislators made that rule so they wouldn't have to face their adultery  but that's just me! LOL Another misinformation: that children are okay after a divorce. Oh hey, make no mistake they do survive. Shoot you are a child of divorce and you're "okay" right? I am too--my parents divorced. Except, whoops--did you notice that both you and I are cheaters? Hmmm...wonder if that's related? And did you notice that both you and I had misunderstandings about what True Love is and isn't? And did you notice that both you and I put our families and children in jeopardy of serious hurt...all to satisfy our own selves? And did you notice that both you and I have exhibited the lack of character to think cheating was somehow justifiable? I'm not trying to put either one of us down here, but clearly we are NOT okay!! Clearly we have some fairly serious issues misunderstanding Love and the duties and boundaries that accompany true and enduring Love. 

So with all that I've said and all the misinformation out there, let me take one of your most recent posts and just compare the two sides: what you THINK and what is TRUE:



> Given the research I've done (both on success of post-divorce marriages as well as marriages born from affairs) the percentages you mention are absolutely correct... and it's very scary.
> 
> I have analyzed & over-analyzed this whole scenario up the ying-yang. I believe the new relationship would be convoluted with problems... and these problems are just the problems I'm aware of (chances are there will be a whole lot more I didn't anticipate).


Okay actually this is 100% true, so good for you. If you look at statistics alone, well shoot. I bet every single one of us can think of ONE couple who started as an affair and ended up faithfully together until one died. But I bet we can also all think of hundreds..maybe THOUSANDS...who started as an affair, left their homes and destroyed their family, ended up breaking up with their AP, and lost everything. Now, ever relationship is unique, and you're probably thinking "Yeah, but we are special!" but don't you think that all the hundreds who left their home and destroyed their family did so because they thought that what they had with their affair partner was "special"? And don't you just guess that they were willing to "gamble it all" because they thought it was somehow better? And despite everyone's warnings and tears and even attempts to talk sense to them...what happened? Their family was blown apart, relationships with the children was damaged, they lost their homes and eventually lost everything...and then the affair was over and by then their spouse had had enough and moved on! 

And speaking of the "convoluted problems you aren't aware of" let me pinpoint a few for you. After you leave your wife and rip her heart out, she is not going to be as congenial and easy-to-get-along with. In fact, she will likely get extremely angry with you and do everything in her power to hurt you as much as you've hurt her. That means the lawyer bills you are thinking of...triple them. The child support you will reasonably offer, she'll refuse, take you to court, and win WAY more than you are thinking--to the point that you'll be asking the judge "But how am I supposed to live?" and his response will be "Not my concern man. You made this bed, you lay in it." And she won't be the only one!! Your AP's spouse is a man, and he is likely to have at minimum a desire to see your manly parts roasted! He will not tolerate her behavior and it's likely he'll throw her into the streets--are you ready to support her AND your wife? He is also not likely to voluntarily give her much money to live off of--after all, are you voluntarily going to keep giving your wife 100% access to all of your funds? He won't either. He will likely defend himself when she tries to do what your wife is doing, so the lawyer bills will triple. And when all is said and done, and both of you are wiped out financially but still have all the obligations, and when both of your spouses are mad as wet hens and no longer "cooperating" with the affair, do you think it's going to be EASIER to see him manipulate her through the children? Or easier to see her pick him (over you) time and again and again "because of the kids"? Or easier to have to have holidays without your children? Imagine Christmas morning and you are not there to see their faces...why? Because you picked an affair over them! Imagine not being told about your kids recitals because it's not your wife's job to inform you anymore. That's your job now. Imagine your AP's hubby dropping the kids off 2 minutes before you're set to take off to take her to a fancy hotel weekend ... and he did it just to piss you off and ruin your time together. And years from now, when your wife and her husband have moved on and don't give a rip about you, imagine your wife just keeping the kids and telling you she's decided to go for full custody and she won't bring them home until a judge orders her. Or imagine her husband just stopping child support payments because he never gets to see them so why should he pay? How will you raise that other man's kids who hate you because you broke up their mom and dad? And decades after that, when your kids are grown and heading into college, what will happen when your wife's parents die? Your AP doesn't even know them, and you sure as heck can't go to the funeral. How are you going to comfort your kids? 

Truly..."the new relationship would be convoluted with problems" and there are virtually thousands of problems that you are not aware of and that I'm hoping you are beginning to see. 



> I am very certain neither of us would cheat again. If the 2nd relationship doesn't work, I know one (or the other) would end up leaving instead of cheating. The thought of that is equally devastating considering all the hell that would be sacrificed and gone through just to get there in the first place.


I'm curious why you believe this. You have said yourself that in your marriage it's not "unhappy" and it's not as if your wife screams at you or is b*tchy. That I can see, there is no reason for you to be afraid of "just leaving" especially since this marriage doesn't mean that much to you. Yet you say that if the affair, which supposedly means SO MUCH MORE TO YOU, were to not work out, you wouldn't cheat, you would just leave. It's funny because I can honestly say that I doubt I would ever, EVER cheat again either, except there's a fairly good reason behind it. I have looked at myself in the mirror and realized that I was the kind of person with the character quality to commit adultery! And since that was NOT the kind of personality traits that I wanted to have as a human being, I went to counseling, learned about myself and where I went wrong, learned about my own weaknesses and set up boundaries to protect my husband and marriage, and grew as a person. I say now, with some confidence, that I doubt I would cheat again mainly because I've done the work and changed internally. 

I see that you were mildly "not that thrilled" with your marriage and yet you cheated on that relationship. I don't see any reason (other than inconvenience maybe) that you didn't "just leave" your marriage...instead you made the choice to be unfaithful. I don't see that you've admitted to your own self that, yep, something about the inside of you as it is now, is the kind of man who would commit adultery. I don't see that you have any desire to change that. I don't see that you've done any counseling or personal work so you can avoid these mistakes and not do that again. I don't see that anything has changed!! Thus, the most likely thing that will occur--if you don't do the hard work to change who you are and where you went wrong internally--is that you will do the same thing again. To my mind, that means if you become mildly "not that thrilled" with your affair... you'll cheat. If I were your AP I'd be terrified of the day you aren't thrilled!! 

Furthermore, the same is true for her. I have no idea why she didn't "just leave" but I can guess that her husband is not a physical abuser or a drunk or you would have mentioned that in your "reasons." So chances are about 100% that she also has not admitted to her own self that, yep, she is the kind of woman who would commit adultery. I also dont see that she has any desire to change that--you've certainly never said so, and lacking evidence that she WANTS to change it's reasonable to think she won't change. I don't see that she's done any counseling or personal work so she can avoid the mistakes that lead to cheating. Thus, with her too the most likely thing that will occur--if she doesn't do the hard work to identify her issues and change them--is that she will do the same thing again. To my mind, that means if she is mildly unhappy in the affair, she'll cheat!! If I were you, I would be worried about the day she's not so happy....



> Also... the OW and myself (for whatever reason) seem to be better communicators with each other. We both have openly discussed very difficult subjects and have opened up on a lot of things... stuff that (for whatever reason) we sadly have never felt comfortable discussing with our own spouses. Please remember my wife and I developed & formed the foundation of our relationship at a very young (and immature) age. The same holds true with the OW.
> 
> My relationship with the OW had as many advantages (maturity) as disadvantages (foundation from cheating). Neither of us are going to have any more children. We're both at an age where no more kids is pretty much mandatory  Besides... I'm already "fixed".


Okay so at least there will be no surprise pregnancies....that's a blessing! Now I'll be honest with you on this one. I understand the idea of being able to communicate easier with one person and having a more difficult time with another person. Chances are pretty good that you and the OW are close in your personality types ... maybe both Extroverts, Sensors, and Judgers on the Myers-Briggs type but you are a Thinker and she's a Feeler. So when you speak to her, 3 of your 4 means of communicating are the same and you "get each other". Meanwhile with your wife maybe she is an Introvert, Intuitive, Perceiver and a Feeler as well--that means 4 of the 4 means of communicating are exactly the opposite of yours, so you two do not "get each other." 

The trick to this, though, is not to abandon the one to whom you made commitments and to whom you have obligations to love only her! One thing you can do is to find out what your own Myers-Briggs personality is and find out what your wife's is! This means that you would learn what an introvert is versus and extrovert and then how an introvert communicated. You would find out what an intuitive person is and explain to her what a sensor is...find how you two differ and how you can bridge that difference. And you would find out about her personality and share about your own and yourself so that both of you can learn about each other and make the effort to improve your communication! 

See the point, the FOCUS in a mature marriage, is not "who in the world is the easiest for me to communicate with?" because what happens when a woman comes along who is ALL 4 of your Myer-Briggs types? No the focus is "am I the kind of person who makes a promise and then has the moral fortitude to honor my promises?" Right now you are not. Right now you could promise your AP the moon and it would mean nothing because you did not honor your promises to your wife and thus you have demonstrated you are not "that kind of man." So if you want to be that kind of a person, you have to recognize that everyone...EVERYONE is going to have their communication challenges. If you get someone who's MB is 3/4 or 4/4 the same as yours, it can feel like reading each other's mind...and if you get someone who is 4/4 exactly the opposite it can feel like pulling teeth! But the man of honor...the man of courage and strength and moral fortitude...is the man who says "I understand my wife is a challenge to communicate with, but when I married her, I made a commitment to spend my life learning about HER and learning how to love HER." Your job is not to "be happy"--your job, that you promised to do, is to spend your life learning to be the husband to your wife that makes her a better woman. (And in return, it's her job to spend her life learning to be the wife that makes you a better man. BUT just because she isn't doing her job is not a JUSTIFICATION for you to do the wrong thing too!)



> If I stay with my wife, this means I have made the decision to NOT attempt to live the rest of my life with a person I consider to be the love of my life. Coming clean would cause severe emotional turmoil to my wife, and... at best... things will never be the same again. At worst, we will end up in divorce anyway (great consolation prize for doing the "right thing") at this point. Everybody loses if I stay and come clean... although there is probably a 0.75% - 2.5% chance wife and I enter marriage counseling and be one of those miraculous couples that survive an affair into a BETTER relationship than before (like some of the posters on this board have experienced).


Actually you are inaccurate here. I guarantee you that from this point forward, "things will never be the same again" even if you stay and never tell her. Here's why. Your marriage is broken. Your marriage is the kind of relationship that put you in the position of being vulnerable to an affair. It is broken. It CAN NOT stay the way it is or I guarantee you that you will commit adultery again. Thus, whether you stay or whether you go, your marriage as it is now is over...but that note that I say "as it is now." 

What I mean is that something has got to change. Now, let's imagine you tell your wife, come clean, tell her everything and do not hide anything. I can guarantee you it will break her heart and her whole world will be destroyed at the foundation. But here's the problem: that world isn't real anyway. It is a "fake" world where "we are a happy family and our marriage is special" ... only it's not! So for you to grow and her to grow and your marriage to grow, it really does have to be destroyed from the root on up. All of it. Does that make sense? Okay you could keep your affair a secret, end the affair, and just carry on, but your marriage has a deep fundamental flaw in the foundation and eventually it will founder again, so although it is very painful--for you and for her--that flaw has to be addressed. 

So the excuse that "things will never be the same again" is moot. They won't. By your choices and your actions you have guaranteed that "things will never be the same again." Now the only question is this: are they going to "never be the same again" with you becoming the kind of man who honors his promises and puts the care of his children ahead of his own needs? Or are they going to "never be the same again" because you put your own happiness ahead of being a man of honor and ahead of the harm of your children. That really is it!!



> If I stay with my wife and keep the affair hidden from her, I will have this terrible secret until the day I die (which... I suppose it's possible the pain of the secret will fade over time). If, in the future, the truth of the affair is exposed I could deal with it (in similar fashion as mentioned above) if that bridge becomes crashing down sometime down-the-road - assuming the same 0.75%-2.5% chance of success.


Nope, again you're not being realistic. You keep wanting "things to be the same" as they kind of are now, and that's a world where your wife meets your needs of domestic support, family/childrearing, etc. and your mistress meets your needs of conversation, passion, etc. But here is reality. If you stay with your wife, you will HAVE TO completely cut off all communication with your mistress. That means you can never, ever talk to her, email her, chat with her, text her, etc. That also means whatever needs she is meeting now will be "unmet" and thus your marriage will not "be the same." And you know as well as I do that one day your affair WILL be discovered... By then your mistress will have moved on to another man or may be back with her husband -AND- your wife will experience the adultery as if it were happening today. You'd have to live a life always looking over your shoulder, always aware that this could be the day everything unravels. And when she finds out you had the affair (which encompasses at least 4 years of lying) AND THEN ALSO covered it up for x number of years!! OY it will be exponentially worse!!! 

At this point, no matter how you turn, I'm telling you--what you knew as your marriage is gone. It will no longer "be the same." So start accepting that because it's the truth. Your marriage as you knew it is gone and a very large portion of that is on your shoulders due to your choice to commit adultery.



> Or, I can come clean with my wife and ask for divorce because I am deeply in love with someone else with the knowledge the new relationship is probably more likely in the 0.75%-1% chance (and not the 2.5% chance). I am very confident that neither of us will ever cheat again. I'm not as confident the problems of the newer relationship will not be so overbearing that causes either party to leave. We both (obviously) have discussed how important it is to WORK THROUGH all the problems, and we both agree it would be idiotic and stupid to throw away 2 marriages just to end in divorce again. I feel very confident there will NOT be any cheating or future affairs... from either side. However, what I do know is that if the OW decided to leave me (because the path is too rough to handle), I believe it's likely she will fight to get as much as she can from me after my first wife does. I believe she would be a lot more "kinder" about it if she is the one leaving, but if I was to leave it would be brutality all over again. BTW... if the OW and I were to end up together I am NOT planning on leaving.


I will just say "see the above discussion about nothing changing" and I'll move on to the next portion.



> The sad truth (just like ING said in a previous post), is that EVEN if I stay with my wife... and even if the affair becomes permanently buried out of view...I will likely forever feel that I have missed out on being with the love of my life for the rest of my life. Granted, it would come at the benefit of not causing destruction to the other parties - which would give some peace of mind. So not only would I keep a terrible secret, but also I would feel I wasn't strong enough to 'man up' to my feelings and follow through to be with this other person.


You know what's funny? You act like as if you would pine after the OW for decades. I have a semi-serious semi-funny question for you. Did you have a girlfriend in high school other than your wife? Do you remember how full of pathos those high school romances were? Do you PINE for her now? Do you even think of her...or if you do, is it much beyond, "Huh I wonder how she is..."? You say you and your OW are "mature" but I suspect your definition of maturity doesn't mean the same thing mine does, because in my dictionary maturity encompasses concepts such as advancement, improvement, development, and personal evolving, as well as characteristics like care, diplomacy, consideration, discernment, foresight, and responsibility. If you were truly a mature man, you wouldn't walk out on your family for your own pleasure! A sign of maturity is doing what you are responsible to do because you are responsible to do it--much like going to work. Hey, it's no fun but you made a commitment to your boss that you'd do the work and to your family that you'd bring home the pay! 

So you tell me which sounds like maturity to you: "If I miss out on the love of my life I'll pine for her forever!" or "I am the kind of man who does not walk out on his obligations, and even though I want to go have fun, I'm going to be responsible and I'm going to choose to BUILD a life I love"? Are you truly mature? Then DEMONSTRATE it by having the discernment to see through the justications you've been telling yourself. DEMONSTRATE it by realizing that if you put as much time and effort into getting to know your wife as you do to your mistress, you'd have a GREAT marriage. DEMONSTRATE it by showing your kids that real men make mistakes and then they do the right thing and protect the people they love. Show us all the kind of man you have the potential to be, by stopping what you know is wrong, doing the right thing, taking your hard licks for doing something so hurtful, repairing your marriage and your family, and then proudly being able to stand up and say "I am the kind of man who is MATURE!"



> On the flipside, I have seen huge improvements in my wife just this past year... and I can honestly say that I have not gotten along better with my wife FOR SEVERAL YEARS as I have this past year. I have lived with SEVERAL years of an emotional void, resentment, contempt, complete disregard for my relationship with my wife (not the family - the "family unit" aspect I always felt relatively happy with, I'm speaking specifically the relationship with my wife). The improvements I have seen my wife make indicate to me she actually IS willing to try her best to make things better. Keep in mind any improvements were NEVER serious before. They would always go by the wayside and I was always left feeling down in the dumps and severely disappointed time & time again.
> 
> In the past, none of the improvements ever really "stuck". It was always convenient to improve at the time simply because the cage got "rattled", but always eventually going back to same old thing. Sadly, it literally took ME MOVING OUT OF THE HOUSE to cause that "wake up call" for my wife to take me seriously. I can actually see that she's trying to make a 180 degree improvement. There are still some things that tend to "revert back to the norm" here & there but so many other things have permanently gotten better. I, too, have made some positive changes as well. But my improvements are only a small fraction of hers - and I think the reason why is that for the last year I have remained in love with the OW. How can I possibly do a 180 degree turn in my wife's favor if I'm not "all-in" with my wife to begin with? So even though I, too, have made some positive changes the only way my changes can really be significant is if the OW and I break up.


So here is the part that almost every loyal spouse hates to hear. I know exactly what you mean about the emotional void, the resentment, the contempt...and trust me when I say that does not justify your choice to cheat. However, what it does do is set up an environment where you are vulnerable and where your marriage and family are at risk. Your wife, like most teenagers  who get married, was probably "playing house" for real for many years...and after that grew somewhat complacent and negligent. But note that your wife, by her actions, has indicated to you that not only is she willing...she is ABLE to change! She is willing to learn about herself and face her mistakes and do something about it. Remember that part up above where I talked about "if nothing changes, chances are you'll do the same thing again"? Well she has done some changing! My guess, just from the fact that she has changed some...is that she is willing to change even more in order to have a good marriage with you. 

So what it comes down to really is you. Without even seeing the devastation of an affair, your wife has shown you that you are important to her and she is willing to look at herself and do some work and do better. Are you willing to do that? Sounds to me like you just want the "easy way out." Again, I warn you that whether you want it to or not, things are not going to "be the same"... either you stay and repair your marriage by doing a lot of hard work ON YOURSELF...or you leave and your family is destroyed and all you've worked for is lost. Once you've accepted that it's not going to be the same, you can decide if you want all you've worked for (your home, your kids, your marriage, your career, your training, her training, etc.) to be for naught...or if you want all you've worked for and you want to build that with the woman to whom you made a vow. 



> To all of you the notion to breakup with the OW is the easiest and most obvious choice... but when you have been stuck in the "fog" for 4 years not just being in love but MADLY in love consistently with another person (and believe without a doubt she is the love of your life), it's a serious painful idea to let her go. The OW has excelled in spades at meeting all of my emotional needs that have been absent with my wife. In trying to analyze myself as impartially as possible, I can probably admit the needs that were most important to me were simply the needs I was missing. And in the new relationship, I know there will be OTHER needs that will likely be absent (and missing).
> 
> I guess I have lived a life as a "cake-eater" for the past 4 years. EVERY NEED I HAD IN THE BOOK... you name it was completely met.


I can see why you'd feel this way because so many say "Breakup" and it seems like we say it so easily, but let me confirm for you that although I am one who is joining in that crowd and encouraging you to end it with the OW and never, ever, EVER communicate with her again, let me just say that I do not say that lightly. I know the emptiness you will feel if you do not have her in your life--like losing your best friend. I know the things you'll have to lose like your email, your phone number, your IMing and texting, the friends you two mutually held, those who knew the two of you as a couple...it feels like such a big chunk of your life and "who you are." But here is the truth, and I'm not kidding you. You're not a teenager. You'll get over it. In fact, if you make the effort to grow as a person and improve your marriage, you will build a love life with your wife, the mother of your children, and you will not forget the OW but you will most definitely not pine after her or regret your decision. You probably won't think of her much at all. I know that seems impossible but I'm telling you it's true! Ask Regret. Ask Empty Inside. We have been in your shoes, and we do not tell you to end the affair lightly. We tell you knowing full well that you life will feel empty and you will feel miserable especially at first...and then you get through the withdrawals and you'll start to do better. 




> I'm still not certain if there are members in this community that had an affair and later had great success leaving wife & family for OW. It would be nice to hear from the small % of those relationships that ended in success. I have heard some stories of people divorcing... then developing a relationship with a new woman and being MUCH happier than they ever have been in the past. But this isn't the same as the affair relationship.


Do you know why you aren't hearing from people who had an affair and then went on to a successful relationship? Because it is EXCEEDINGLY RARE!! I would think that might tell you something. What is not so rare is this: disloyal spouse has affair; disloyal leaves spouse for AP; divorce ensues; AP gets fed up and throws out disloyal; loyal spouse has had enough and will not take disloyal back. Having been here on this forum for two years (and on MarriageBuilders forum for about 8 years before that) I would say I personally know of hundreds if not thousands of stories like that, and I'm not exaggerating. I also know a smaller number but still many who went like this: disloyal spouse has affair; the affair ends (either loyal or disloyal ends it); No Contact is put in place; counseling ensues; both spouses change; the marriage is entirely different and much better. Yes, that number is lower because in order for this to happen, both spouses have to work and address their own personal demons, and quite frequently one is willing but the other is afraid to face themselves...and then eventually the marriage disintegrates. But even THIS option is much more frequent than the "had an affair, ended the marriage, and had successful relationship with AP"!! Shoot right on this thread you have at least three: myself, Regret and Dig, and Empty Inside and betrayed1...and to be honest there may be more! 



> To those who are interested in the BEST way I should handle my life moving forward, I wonder what option they would choose:
> 
> a) Permanently breakup with OW. Come clean with wife and watch the marriage crumble with turmoil emotions... with a very high % chance ending in divorce anyway.
> 
> ...


Sorry I vote for option D:

d) Permanently breakup with OW. Come clean with wife and no trickle truth. Face yourself and work on changing who you are. Put as much time and effort into your wife as you have put into your mistress. Put as much time and effort into yourself and being the kind of man you want to be (the man who honors his promises and isn't "the kind of man" to cheat...who protects his kids and his family). Work on your marriage and building the love you want with your wife. Change your focus from "getting your needs met" to doing what you vowed to do, namely spending the rest of your life learning to be a husband to your wife that makes her a better woman. 

BE THAT GUY!! :iagree:


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Affaircare; very good, very thoughtfull and very true post! I like.

I would vote for your option D too had it not been for this: OP has several times indicated/implicitly told us, that he does not respect his wife.

1. He thinks it's OK for him to make a huge life- and relationship altering decission (cheating), but it is not OK for his wife to decide on small everyday issues on behalf of the kids.

2. He truly believes that his wife should stay in the relationship on false premisses. She doesn't get to decide for herself whether she should be in the relationship with him - on an educated and informed basis. He is very firm in his decission to disguise his true self - making her live a huge lie.

A relationship cannot flourish without mutual respect. He has clearly lost all respect for his wife.

You may say that people change, and I agree. But option D is IMO not realistic for him to choose. It commands him to respect his wife, which he clearly doesn't. How would he regain respect?

Otherwise I agree with you. My guess is though, that he will continue cake eating - 60% here, 40% there, makes his life complete. Easy choice compared to all the struggles you outlined for him to face.

Oh, and he does not fear discovery after 4 years, too self confident.

To OP: Set your wife free and let her have a future with a man who respect her and won't settle for semi-semi stuff.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm sorry collier, when I see your posts I'm reminded of my daughter when she's throwing a tantrum.

You keep telling us about how your wife did this, your wife did that and how she's not satisfying your needs. Well sometimes a man, especially someone who's being unfaithful and not true to his word should just stop and ask.

What have I been bringing to the table these past four years? Why is she settling for less than my complete self? Isn't she getting the short end of the stick while I'm having fun?

You should see it from my *Boots*(puss in ...) . I'm just a stranger, hardly of any importance in your life. But since I don't know you, I have the advantage of not giving you a biased opinion, because i don't have anything to gain.

Sometimes a man has to learn to become responsible. No one desires it, well I'm hardly the man to be advising you, I hate being a responsible individual on most days but I have never run away from any of them and I'm sorry to say Collier, in my honest opinion, you are running away. Whatever's going to happen is inevitable but all you're doing by over analyzing and not implementing is prolonging your torture, your wife's agony even though she might not know it. your lover's agony and her husband's.

You honestly believe that you'll have a successful relationship? A relationship thats been built on four years of lies. A relationship that has never been tested?

Oh you might feel that with this woman everything's going to work out but let me tell you, any relationship begins that way, don't remember the time when you met your wife or are you rewriting what happened to suit your script? 

Think about it.........


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

To be honest, the only reason I created another account was because my wife saw this thread and it reminded her about her own infidelity and she badgered me to create another account. I'm not really getting a kick out of telling you to leave your AP and go back to your wife, I'm just asking you to open your eyes to reality. A reality not plagued by feelings for the OW( The Affair Fog).

Wonder what happened to my wife? The OM threw her under the bus when he realized that she was actually addled enough to leave me. Guess what happened next, I had her served. And then she spiraled down until her situation became so bleak that I, the benevolent person that I am, decided to pull the plug on D for the moment. But I always kept it open and periodically kept referencing it just to watch her writhe. Add some name calling, physical and emotional abuse over the next couple of years. 

You understand how much more worse it might get? I'm not saying its going to happen, it just might though.

Why not spare yourself that much more pain? We weren't able to, I honestly think that my wife and I had one of the most painful reconciliations. Doesn't have to be that painful you know, coming clean may just be the key to waking up from this nightmare of 4 years.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Affaircare; very good, very thoughtfull and very true post! I like.
> 
> I would vote for your option D too had it not been for this: OP has several times indicated/implicitly told us, that he does not respect his wife.
> 
> ...


AffairCair: Excellent post. You definitely hit the bull's eye on many points. I will respond to that as soon as I can. Maybe tomorrow. It's really late now :-\

CpaCan: I was a cake-eater for 4 years, but not any longer. I'm overly "stuffed" with cake I can't take the thought of another bite. But you are correct that I lost every ounce of respect for not only my wife, our marriage, but our "relationship". After several years of the 'semi-happy' bull crap (and nothing getting done to fix it) I completely lost any emotional investment interest that I had. In my situation though, the marriage was not "awful", "abusive", or "bad". Just severely unfulfilling on the emotional side. It was VERY fulfilling on the raising kids + family side. The holidays. Family trips, etc. I'm specifically talking about the inter-relationship between me and my wife.

I didn't even realize at the time to how vulnerable I was to engaging in an affair. Prior to these last 4 years I have led an honest life. But indeed, it happened. While I respected my wife as a mother (for the most part, she's an amazing mother), I had no respect for her as a companion. Even without that respect, the relationship wasn't terrible enough to downright leave. We still got along pretty well (just no passion). We still had sex fairly frequently (a few times per month). But sex does NOT equal passion (2 different things). There is literally a whole "laundry list" of complaints that never got fixed (back then) that I could bring up, but it's pointless. The bottom line is that my inappropriate attachment with the co-worker grew & grew very strongly. At first the attachment grew blindly under my nose, but eventually reached a point where I made the inappropriate willful decision to engage in an emotional & physical relationship with this other woman.

You love to put words in my mouth, and assume I don't fear discovery. I absolutely fear discovery, but what I fear even more than that is unnecessary damage & destruction. I have no desire to "disguise my TRUE self". I have a desire to disguise my PREVIOUS self. You assume people like me don't change (that once a cheater, always a cheater). Given the fact I vastly prefer my OLD self... I am very confident that I will be capable of making the necessary changes to get back to my OLD self again and proactively make adjustments so this mistake never happens again. I'm not a bumbling idiot. I do learn from my mistakes. You don't personally know me, but I know there are plenty of others like you that like to "blanket generalize" who I am simply because I'm the wayward/disloyal spouse.

As for respecting my wife, that really isn't any of your business (or this board's). But I will say that I gained a huge amount of respect back for her this past year... something that was once completely lost definitely has rebuilt itself. I need to work things through to decide if it's now too late (for ME in terms of MY involvement) or if I should give up the dream with OW and move on & forward with my wife. You seem to think that if I move foward with my wife you automatically assume my "heart" wouldn't be totally invested. You are wrong. If I do make the choice I will most definitely put all my heart and soul into (passionately) loving my wife again and working through the rough spots to make things as good as possible.

Back to AffairCair: Unfortunately, I do doubt the inter-personal connection I have with my wife will ever reach the level I have with the OW though. I guess I would need to accept their differences and learn to appreciate what I have vs. longing for what I don't have.

I feel compelled to define "THE ONE" and "THE LOVE OF MY LIFE" in what it means. I'm specifically talking about the interaction + communication. The verbal + non-verbal. The sexual and intimate compatibility. The "very best friend" friendship compatibility. The longing + adoration + craving (passion).

I do not know of this "Biggs" personality test, but I suppose there is a lot of science to why the OW fell into place as the woman who totally "gets me" versus the wife I've spent over 20 years with. Hint: It isn't my imagination on the dopamine drug. But for whatever reason... call it dopamine (for pleasure re-inforcement) or oxytocin (for "bonding"). For some reason this OW was exclusively chosen by my mind, body, and soul at that time. Just because a person totally "gets" another doesn't mean there's any chemistry. Just because one person is attracted to another doesn't mean the same feelings would be mutually fed back. It takes two to tango, and the in-love ball grew very large... and very quickly during this exchange with the OW. I'm sure it's a combination of mutual attraction + dopamine + oxytocin + maybe some other scientific phermone "naked to the eye" element that creates such a bond of such intensity. In layman's perspective, I will just simplly call it... LOVE.

Romance-wise, Intimacy-wise, Friendship-wise, Companionship-wise, this OW is (without a doubt) the woman of my dreams. The way we naturally interact is never forced, and has always been the way I wanted with my spouse (but never thrived or got to that level).

Just like many posters like to state how I follow the "Lost in the Fog" script there is an equal script to one living in a semi-happy passionless marriage. I'm sure I fit both examples strikingly close. But "LOVE OF YOUR LIFE" does NOT necessarily mean "MOST COMPATIBLE". In a world of billions of people I'm sure there are hundreds (if not thousands) that you could potentially come across that totally fit the romantic bill from head to toe.
Clearly there are many forms of love, and I was blessed (and CURSED) by the highest form of it.

What I'm saying is that even such a connection to this extent is extremely rare. It's a bonus if that other person also shares most of your same interests (which... in my case the OW does NOT share many of my interests). Also, in my case, the OW and myself would be entering a new relationship with hand-over-fist problems. My problems will become her problems. Her problems will become my problems. And the windfall of the destruction of 2 divorces will become BOTH of our problems. With all of this baggage, even when a woman may very well be the love of your life it DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THE RELATIONSHIP IS THE MOST COMPATIBLE!

So, in a nutshell... that's the position I am in. Coming out of the fog, I am starting to believe the likelihood there would be too much problems and baggage for the relationship with the love of my life to be successful. The REAL 24/7 relationship I have is, by nature, a much more "compatible" one. But clearly not free of problems (it surely wasn't all that compatible the last several years, was it? Especially the last four years.

The main thing that has given me hope with the relationship with my wife is the drastic positive changes I've seen this past year. While I agree with you the "OLD" relationship between my wife and I must be considered "dead" to successfully continue (I've read that phrase several times on other sites) I do think it's possible for people to actively change - whether it be on their own or through MC or IC.

I believe the previous moving out of the house incident was a bit enough wake-up call for my wife to change. This website (and the overstuffed feeling of eating cake) was enough drive to help me willingingly make the choice to change.

One way or another, I will live an honest life from this day forward. Even if it means I decide to protect my wife from the truth about the affair (if that's the road I choose), this doesn't mean the "new" relationship with my wife will be susceptible to cheating again. I've already said I'm not going down that road ever again. There needs to be a mutual effort where we both (as husband and wife) are meeting each other's needs. My wife may have been mostly satisfied in the semi-happy state we were in, but clearly I wasn't. But I'm sure there are other areas in the marriage where my wife isn't comletely satisfied that I'm sure I will need to improve on. If I can't do it on my own, I realize I may need to go to IC (or perhaps MC).

All I'm saying is there can still be an avenue to where the "old" marriage is considered "dead" while a newer (better) relationship is created. The lies & deceit are in the old marriage (not the new). Like Hotdogs has stated, I too do not see anything good that can possibly come out from disclosing the affair to her. If I choose to stay home with the wife and family I can still make it my own mission to turn over a new leaf to be 100.0% devoted to my wife and family... making all of them as happy as I can.

Also (for the record), it wasn't just one problem that led me to stray. It was a series of problems over the years that chipped away and dwindled my emotional investment with my WIFE. For many years she didn't take me seriously, and I guess one day a switch turned when I no longer took her seriously. I have learned a hard but valuable lesson in my experience with cheating and this affair. Because I've lived through it all I'm sure I can see the warning signs as they come. But even so, there are actions I can pre-emptively take to prevent any kind of "mutual attraction" with a 3rd party in the future. There are steps one can take to not get entangled in that trap.

So whether I'm spending the rest of my life with OW, my wife, or alone back to square one I already have a whole new set of rules to how I should conduct myself in the future. I just hope fairly soon things finally start to get better.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> To be honest, the only reason I created another account was because my wife saw this thread and it reminded her about her own infidelity and she badgered me to create another account. I'm not really getting a kick out of telling you to leave your AP and go back to your wife, I'm just asking you to open your eyes to reality. A reality not plagued by feelings for the OW( The Affair Fog).
> 
> Wonder what happened to my wife? The OM threw her under the bus when he realized that she was actually addled enough to leave me. Guess what happened next, I had her served. And then she spiraled down until her situation became so bleak that I, the benevolent person that I am, decided to pull the plug on D for the moment. But I always kept it open and periodically kept referencing it just to watch her writhe. Add some name calling, physical and emotional abuse over the next couple of years.
> 
> ...


I've said numerous times that I have great doubts things will easily work out between the OW and myself. I think the odds are HUGELY STACKED AGAINST our favor. It's not because I'm illusioned into thinking she's the "love of my life" (see previous post for my definition of it). It's more because of the unfortunate baggage that will be stockpiled the moment a new relationship starts. I think the OW has always grossly underestimated the diffulties that would begin in such a post-aftermath relationship. If anything, being in the fog made me minimize the risk of things actually being successful in the new relationship (because of the baggage and unforseen problems).

I don't believe for an instant that being "in the fog" made me re-write scripts or justify reasons that it was "okay to cheat". I don't think I was severely "deep" in the fog. But I most certainly was extremely deep in limbo! There's a great amount of anxiety and depression that's coupled with such a high-intense passionate relationship. I guess if a person is capable of having a super-high intense loving relationship with a person they CAN have... it's gotta be out of this world. But having a super high-intense loving relationship with a person you CAN'T have is absolute torture.

Even though I made a promise, if the marriage was downright awful I would have broken that promise and divorced to find someone better. This is clearly not the case.

I do believe people should not break their words on promises. If it was a mistake for me to marry my wife at the time (making a promise to stay together until death do us part), I'm fully aware the better time to revolk that promise is BEFORE children... BEFORE a family is started. That just makes things more unfair. I'm not saying in my case it's perfectly right to divorce, but I am saying there are situations when it is not only necessary but also imperatively RIGHT (even though that initial promise would need to be broken).

I've never felt that I was in a situation where it was "right" to divorce my family. I believe that is why I backed away from it on my previous attempts.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

p.s. The "high-intensity" of passion is an amazing rollercoaster ride. The HIGHEST of highs, and the LOWEST of lows. It definitely is a similar beast as gambling. I have no doubts this "dopamine" is chemically present in both, and addiction can be triggered by the fluctuation of highs & lows.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm sorry but i get the feeling that you're repeating the same thing from the past 13 pages. This site is not a place that condones affairs or validates them. And I think you are looking for validation, even though you might not realize it yourself. If you want help you have to be open to suggestions of those who have been in your shoes before rather than getting on the defensive or going round in circles with the pretext of analyzing your situation.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Richard, you're suffering from paralysis of analysis.

(BTW, does your wife complain about this trait?)


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Okay my turn - your AP has the easiest job in the world.......sit back criticize your wife, saying stuff like "I would NEVER treat you like the way she does, that's horrible..." and NEVER having to endure living with you, never having to wash you dirty underwear, etc...my ex went to work complaining about me and my controlling nature, etc. BUT omitted the fact that she had numerous indiscretions, and EAs to which I demanded complete openess from her....she left out THOSE facts when she was bad-mouthing me to coworker buddy who became her lover....she left out the fact that she over-spent and saddled me with so much debt, that I had to work hard to pay it off, she left out the fact she was bossy, manipulative, controlling - which made it hard to be initimate with her...she only told her AP HER side of the story.......let your wife sit down with your affair partner and tell her what it is REALLY like to live with her......my ex last only a few months with her affair partner who she worked with.........turns out she wasnt who she presented herself to be.......I knew that anyway...truth is your AP is only getting part of the truth.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> CpaCan: I was a cake-eater for 4 years, but not any longer. I'm overly "stuffed" with cake I can't take the thought of another bite. But you are correct that I lost every ounce of respect for not only my wife, our marriage, but our "relationship". After several years of the 'semi-happy' bull crap (and nothing getting done to fix it) I completely lost any emotional investment interest that I had. In my situation though, the marriage was not "awful", "abusive", or "bad". Just severely unfulfilling on the emotional side. It was VERY fulfilling on the raising kids + family side. The holidays. Family trips, etc. I'm specifically talking about the inter-relationship between me and my wife.
> 
> I didn't even realize at the time to how vulnerable I was to engaging in an affair. Prior to these last 4 years I have led an honest life. But indeed, it happened. While I respected my wife as a mother (for the most part, she's an amazing mother), I had no respect for her as a companion. Even without that respect, the relationship wasn't terrible enough to downright leave. We still got along pretty well (just no passion). We still had sex fairly frequently (a few times per month). But sex does NOT equal passion (2 different things). There is literally a whole "laundry list" of complaints that never got fixed (back then) that I could bring up, but it's pointless. The bottom line is that my inappropriate attachment with the co-worker grew & grew very strongly. At first the attachment grew blindly under my nose, but eventually reached a point where I made the inappropriate willful decision to engage in an emotional & physical relationship with this other woman.


You say you HAD no respect for her... would you say that your current actions and attitude shows her you respect her now?



RichardCollier said:


> *You love to put words in my mouth*, and assume I don't fear discovery. I absolutely fear discovery, but what I fear even more than that is unnecessary damage & destruction. I have no desire to "disguise my TRUE self". I have a desire to disguise my PREVIOUS self. You assume people like me don't change (that once a cheater, always a cheater). Given the fact I vastly prefer my OLD self... I am very confident that I will be capable of making the necessary changes to get back to my OLD self again and proactively make adjustments so this mistake never happens again. I'm not a bumbling idiot. I do learn from my mistakes. You don't personally know me, but I know there are plenty of others like you that like to "blanket generalize" who I am simply because I'm the wayward/disloyal spouse.


It's a weakness of mine, I know, sorry bout that.



RichardCollier said:


> *As for respecting my wife, that really isn't any of your business (or this board's).* But I will say that I gained a huge amount of respect back for her this past year... something that was once completely lost definitely has rebuilt itself. I need to work things through to decide if it's now too late (for ME in terms of MY involvement) or if I should give up the dream with OW and move on & forward with my wife. You seem to think that if I move foward with my wife you automatically assume my "heart" wouldn't be totally invested. You are wrong. If I do make the choice I will most definitely put all my heart and soul into (passionately) loving my wife again and working through the rough spots to make things as good as possible.


Maybe you are right that your lack of respect for your wife is not my business or this boards business. You may take it or leave it, you asked for opinions when you chose to post at the forum. MY opinion is, that without respect, you can't have a fullfilling, satisfying and loving relationship with your wife.

And from my own personal experience, that is, I would prefer to have all information available about my life partner, when I am to decide if I want the relationship or not. You are denying your wife that option. And that's why I THINK it is the honourable thing to do, to give your wife the opportunity to search for greener grass.



RichardCollier said:


> What I'm saying is that even such a connection to this extent is extremely rare. It's a bonus if that other person also shares most of your same interests (which... in my case the OW does NOT share many of my interests). Also, in my case, the OW and myself would be entering a new relationship with hand-over-fist problems. My problems will become her problems. Her problems will become my problems. And the windfall of the destruction of 2 divorces will become BOTH of our problems. With all of this baggage, even when a woman may very well be the love of your life it DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THE RELATIONSHIP IS THE MOST COMPATIBLE!





RichardCollier said:


> One way or another, I will live an honest life from this day forward. Even if it means *I decide to protect my wife from the truth about the affair (if that's the road I choose)*, this doesn't mean the "new" relationship with my wife will be susceptible to cheating again. I've already said I'm not going down that road ever again. There needs to be a mutual effort where we both (as husband and wife) are meeting each other's needs. My wife may have been mostly satisfied in the semi-happy state we were in, but clearly I wasn't. But I'm sure there are other areas in the marriage where my wife isn't comletely satisfied that I'm sure I will need to improve on. If I can't do it on my own, I realize I may need to go to IC (or perhaps MC).
> 
> All I'm saying is there can still be an avenue to where the "old" marriage is considered "dead" while a newer (better) relationship is created. The lies & deceit are in the old marriage (not the new). Like Hotdogs has stated, I too do not see anything good that can possibly come out from disclosing the affair to her. If I choose to stay home with the wife and family I can still make it my own mission to turn over a new leaf to be 100.0% devoted to my wife and family... making all of them as happy as I can.


In my opinion this is contradictory. You don't live an honest life if you "protect your wife from the truth". 




RichardCollier said:


> So whether I'm spending the rest of my life with OW, my wife, or alone back to square one I already have a whole new set of rules to how I should conduct myself in the future. I just hope fairly soon things finally start to get better.


Things won't get better unless YOU change something in the mix.

The true nature of the fog is... well, you can't see that you are in it, and no I DON'T THINK you are coming out of it just yet.

You talk a lot about feelings. You seem to forget, that feelings are temporary and... well, just feelings. Your wife and family are made of flesh and blood, and the things you have experienced together, and your perception of it, contributes to define you as a person.

If you haven't read it already, I would suggest a book for you. It's called "The Four Agreemnets", and the essence of it is, that the whole world and your entire life are just stories, what YOU make of it. Your wife see a totally different world, so do I, and the other posters. Why won't you share your view with your wife?

To quote Affaircare:
"DEMONSTRATE it by having the discernment to see through the justications you've been telling yourself. DEMONSTRATE it by realizing that if you put as much time and effort into getting to know your wife as you do to your mistress, you'd have a GREAT marriage"

I just THINK you are scared.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Clearly there are many forms of love, and I was blessed (and CURSED) by the highest form of it.





















So this is your definition of the highest form of love?

Man I kind of get the mind in a muddle scenario surrounding you but, really? You know, like seriously? 

As I see it, the only blessing is a load of dopamine and a nice touch of fantasy. I don't think I'll need to elaborate the curses that come as a bonus.

You haven't done drugs I suppose. Heroin pretty much releases the same dopamine in your brain except that the amounts are crazily high when compared to affair sex. So there's heroin and then there's the abuser and he's warped in the fantasy of happily ever after with all the flowery things and drool and the vacant expression and then some more drool. 

And the end result after years and years of abuse. An arm that looks weirdly like swiss cheese, an addled brain and many many more side effects.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Rich, you're not truly interested in advice from TAM members. It seems you're just looking for someone to finally go along with what YOU want to do: never tell your wife how badly you screwed the marriage. That would take courage. That would take trust. I haven't seen those qualities in your posts.

I've seen a ton of excuses and an overused psychobabble term "semi-happy marriage".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

You have advice from people:

who have cheated and recovered their marriage.
from people who have been on your wifes end of things.
from people who have Divorced and moved on.
from people with no experience on either side.

Maybe this will help clear up the problem
The parrot is resting..


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

ing said:


> You have advice from people:
> 
> who have cheated and recovered their marriage.
> from people who have been on your wifes end of things.
> ...


I love monty python.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I know it's already been said, and I know I'm wasting my breath.

Anyhow, here goes.

Cheating is a cowardly act. It is the choice of someone who thinks they're entitled to happiness, regardless of the cost to anyone else. How do we know this? Because in Western countries, divorce and cheating are easy, but loyalty and faithfulness are hard.

You have chosen the easy, selfish path, Richard. Infidelity is the very definition, the epitome of selfishness. Besides, marriage counseling, it's a pain in the rear. Not to mention a snore. All that introspection, self-examination, guilt--why deliberately subject yourself to unpleasantness one second longer than necessary.




You want to be profoundly loved. You think you have that. In fact, the reason you've carried on as long as you have is that you think it's your RIGHT. In fact, based solely on YOUR description of your behavior, you believe your rights trump everyone else's.

But you're perfectly willing to indefinitely (or at least for many years) deprive your wife of that very thing--the right to feel special and loved by someone who thinks SHE hung the moon. She doesn't get to make a choice, whether it's you (kind of hope not based on all you've said) or someone else who will deeply connect with her. Because you feel perfectly entitled, via twists in logic, to continue to deprive her of that with every passing day. 



You had lots of time to decide whether your love is the "One." And if she was the "One" you sure aren't treating her like the queen she supposedly is. She isn't the public official partner to you. So with every second that passes, you "love" her but you're not willing to accord that love with the respect that such "_deep_" love would ordinarily deserve. So you "love" her, but only up to a point.

So the truth is, you don't want to decide. Things are pretty darn good from the navel-gazing perch from which you sit.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

RichardCollier said:


> You are INCORRECT by saying that "if I can't have either of them, I would do nothing". I have already stopped the physical relationship of the affair for the time being until this issue gets resolved. The OW and I are still in love and have strong feelings, but the PA aspect is on hold for now... and indefinitely until if a time comes when we are together 24/7 in a real non-secretive relationship. Believe me, Dawn,... it took an insane amount of will power to do this but I had to. Like the other poster said, living in limbo for 4 years I feel has put me in a near nervous breakdown. I also wanted to take some small steps to regain some of my integrity back. So yes, I actually HAVE made changes.
> 
> Secondly, I have already stated that one way or another I'm going to "sh*t" or get off the pot. The whole point of this discussion was NOT so I could miraculously find a way to continue having a secretive affair!!!!!!!!! The whole point was to gain knowledge and support to make the BEST decision (leaving the wife vs. leaving the OW).
> 
> ...


 OP -- have you stopped any and all contact with the OW? If you have not, then you are not stopping anything, you are pausing. Completely different.

I do not recall blaming your wife for your affair, so I am not quite sure how to answer that comment. But you do seem to put a lot of emphasis about you two being young and immature when you married. Yes, you were. BOTH of you were young and immature, and its not exactly the mature responsible thing to go out and start an affair, so perhaps instead of looking at your wife, you need to start looking at yourself. There is way too much focus on your wife, what she has done wrong, and how it is semi-happy. There is NO mention of your failures in the relationship. Did it ever occur to you that maybe when your wife got aloof and stopped caring, that you were not meeting her needs and she detached? You avoid taking any part of the breakdown, which won't get you anywhere.

You have shown that you can not end contact(ALL CONTACT) with the OW on your own. Every time you two tried, you ended up back together. Without exposing yourself to you wife and seeing the damage you caused, the first time you get frustrated with your wife or your marriage, you will go squirming back to the OW. You probably already know this.

You want to willfully make a choice, by denying your wife the truth and manipulating her response. That is what you want? Manipulating the facts of your marriage so you can play your wife into staying with you? Silly me, I thought you wanted to build a better marriage with her, not use her as a puppet by only feeding her the information YOU want her to know.


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## DG3 (Jul 13, 2011)

My husband was cheating on me for 6 years. He also blamed it on other issues instead of just taking the rap for it. He said it was because we had three kids, I stayed at home, it was boring, blah blah blah. So he found someone new who was exciting and shiny new. She made him feel like a wanted man. What he didn't care to think about was me...his wife...at home raising his three sons, cooking, cleaning and feeling worn out and lonely. I was so lonely but I didn't cheat. So I found out about his affair and we are amazingly still together. We decided to work on our marriage and I am happy to report we have found a completely new relationship was waiting to be discovered. We have fun now, we spend time on us. No it's not easy. I have a major freak out session occasionally. But staying was the best choice for us. I do have to say though, she needs to know. She needs to be allowed to make the decision like I did. She may not stay with you. Give her the chance to fix what is lacking. You need to fix what is lacking on your end. I'm sure you are fulfilling NONE of her needs. What are her needs, do you even know? Find out. The other woman needs to go. You need time away to find out who you really are and what you want. I feel so bad for your wife being left in the dark like I was. It's just not right. Please do the right thing. You claim to have love for your wife. Well show it. Please!


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## DG3 (Jul 13, 2011)

d) Permanently breakup with OW. Come clean with wife and no trickle truth. Face yourself and work on changing who you are. Put as much time and effort into your wife as you have put into your mistress. Put as much time and effort into yourself and being the kind of man you want to be (the man who honors his promises and isn't "the kind of man" to cheat...who protects his kids and his family). Work on your marriage and building the love you want with your wife. Change your focus from "getting your needs met" to doing what you vowed to do, namely spending the rest of your life learning to be a husband to your wife that makes her a better woman. 

BE THAT GUY!! :iagree:[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this. This is EXACTLY what my husband did when I found out about his affair. That is EXACTLY why we are still married, still a family and we share an amazing bond, and amazing relationship filled with laughter and respect. We discovered a new relationship and we have never been happier. We feel like we climbed a mountain and accomplished something so amazing. If my husband would have done anything other than what you wrote we would be a divorced family.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Richard,

You seem to think that you are in a position to unilaterally decide how your wife will live her life. Saying that you want to do what's right for your family & coming clean will be too destructive and hurtful is just an excuse. What you're really afraid of is being the obvious cause of the hurt, being the bad guy. It's all about you.

But your wife gets a vote. You need to grow up and give her one. Show her the respect she's earned by sticking with you all these years. Listen to Affaircare's advice and go with option D - tell your wife the truth & try to do the right thing from here on out. You can't control what will happen, but you can do your best.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> Listen to Affaircare's advice and go with option D - tell your wife the truth & try to do the right thing from here on out. You can't control what will happen, but you can do your best.


Actually Richard can't control the outcome but he can certainly control his actions and behavior.

And he can most certainly show respect to his wife and marriage by being Honest for the 1st time in 4 years.

It would be a start.......


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

alte Dame said:


> Richard,
> 
> You seem to think that you are in a position to unilaterally decide how your wife will live her life. Saying that you want to do what's right for your family & coming clean will be too destructive and hurtful is just an excuse. What you're really afraid of is being the obvious cause of the hurt, being the bad guy. It's all about you.
> 
> But your wife gets a vote. You need to grow up and give her one. Show her the respect she's earned by sticking with you all these years. Listen to Affaircare's advice and go with option D - tell your wife the truth & try to do the right thing from here on out. You can't control what will happen, but you can do your best.


I am glad you posted this. I am of the belief that OP wants to keep his "secret" from his wife as a convenient out. I have already expressed that without telling her the truth, he will not be able to close the space between them. The guilt will come between, only she won't know that is what it is. So then after he feels that he gave it the "good ole college try" he can leave and say it was all because they couldn't connect. his refusal to accept that this lie will only deepen the disconnect between them is because he truly feels it is his wife's responsibility to connect to him, not the other way around.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I couldn't read the whole thread because of so many of the long dissertations on it. However, I'm assuming this is a PA and not just an EA. 

Richard, have you given any thought to what may happen if OW's husband finds out? What if he discovers what's going on and tells your wife? What if he wants to beat the crap out of you or worse what if he wants to ruin your career? 

The status quo may change before you are ready for it...


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

DawnD: Yes, think OP seems to definitely want an out. I kind of think he sees himself as an overwhelmed chess master who's made some unwise moves in a very tragic game. He's in the last phases and is desperately trying to recover from a board that's set up against him. An out that doesn't finger him as the guy that lost the game is preferable to him. Seems very human to not want to be the bad guy, but he can't control everything & certainly imo doesn't have the right to direct his wife's life.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I just wants to point out the *exteme* form of *emotional abuse* you are inflicting to your wife the last four years. You are now too self centered to realize it (I hope). Having all your "needs" met with your cake eating (by BW plus OW) but at the same time complaining about your "needs not met" by your BW, demanding her to improve herself towards you while f0cking around. Including 2 separation in which she doesn't know what the hell is happening here. She has no idea she's competing with an "ideal", she's blamed for her husband unhappiness ,she blames herself for always falling short, for not trying hard enough. What a mindf0ckery. She surely has made a HUGE effort if you are even willing to acknowledge it because your stardars are totally unreachable (luuurv of your life in the wings, 100 % needs met). And if you believe for a minute the mere fact you are cheating (coping with cognitive dissonance, ego protection) don't affect the way you perceive and treat your BW you are lying yourself like a pro. You have to; 4 years of cheating are too much to rationalize the lack of integrity (Of course OW is the love of your life, otherwise who you are?).
Meanwhile obviously you do nothing to meet her needs. You become a pure taker. It's all about you. You are all complains. Poor woman. Every body her know trying to win back your WS while the affair is ongoing is futile, MC are a waste while an active affair, many profesionals even rejects active cheaters as clients. The's the reason people suggest to kill the affiar first. She never had a chance. Never. 
Google *gaslighting*. It's *major abuse*. She's playing this game with an just arm, with different rules. So unfair.

Many, many betrayed had to suffer it while in the dark but for years? Good Lord.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

On a somewhat lighter--and shorter --note, I ran across this article today and thought it was relevant to the conversation: 

"Do Cheats Ever End Well?" 

I believe the person who wrote the letter ("Am I Kidding Myself") is asking basically the same question Mr. Collier is here. I note that there are 728 reader comments at the time I post this, and of those 728 probably 720 are saying "No it doesn't end well" and that's not because we are being "unobjective." It's because we are trying to forewarn you--affairs do not end well. It is exceedingly, extremely rare and there's about a 99.99% chance you will NOT be the exception!!!

Anyway...enjoy the little article


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## ObjectOfAffection (Jul 12, 2012)

I've been lurking on these forums for awhile, and was finally inspired to post based on the types of people who had responded already. Let's add one more - Someone who had an affair, and after d-day chose to D rather than R (even though my husband offered to try R).

No one on this board can make the decision for you (obviously), but I wanted to share my experience in broad terms.

When I read your original post it was all very familiar, I could have written it myself (except I have no children). I fell in love with another person, and couldn't decide whether to stay or go. My marriage had lacked passion, and I was neither happy nor unhappy in it. Being in an affair brought all the negative aspects of my marriage to the forefront of my mind.

Prior to D-Day I obsessively read this website and others, collecting all the information I could. I was aware of the fog and scared to death that my feelings about my marriage were all just a chemically induced illusion. I was afraid that leaving my husband would be the biggest mistake of my life, and I was hoping to find some magic cure all that could fix the mess I'd made of everything.

After D-day my affair was exposed to my close family and our joint friends. Since then, I have also freely told all of my close personal friends the entire story. The response from my family and friends has all been the same - though they were rightfully disappointed in me having an affair, no one was surprised that I was divorcing. 

Basically, my mother and the people closest to me had been worried about me for the last 2 years, because I always seemed mildly depressed (side note: my affair was only 2 months long). My best friend said she felt like I'd gone into hibernation, waiting for something to kick start my life again. I was not happy with my marriage, and in my case, it wasn't just the affair fog rewriting my history.

Maybe my ex and I could have fixed the problems in our marriage if I had been able to recognize my own unhappiness sooner, but because of my selfish decisions, divorce became the best option. He will be able to find a woman who will love him like he deserves (and like I never did). And I won't be coasting through life in a relationship that neither makes me happy nor terribly unhappy. I live by myself now, and I'm spending a lot of time rediscovering who I am, and who I want to be. I deeply regret the pain I caused, but I do not regret getting divorced.

I've been rambling a bit, but I guess my point is that if you are going to end your marriage, it should not be for your AP. If your AP drops dead the day after your divorce is finalized, would you still think you made the right decision in getting divorced?

Alternatively, I agree with other posters that if you choose to stay, you should tell your wife about the affair. You'll need to to go to MC and IC and figure out what needs your AP was fulfilling that your marriage was not, and work on your relationship with your wife as a team. How can you heal the relationship that you've already broken otherwise? Also, unless you address the issues, you are leaving yourself primed for another affair later down the road.

In fact, you should probably start IC right now (if you haven't already).


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks for the link AffairCare. Really good article.


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## babymama3 (Aug 13, 2012)

Hmmm...so many negative responses. Here in the real world, these things do happen. I don't judge. But it sounds like things are really coming to a head in your heart, and you need to make a decision. Is your mistress okay remaining just that? What about telling your wife how much you love her and want to stay with her and preserve your marriage for the sake of the kids and finances, but also tell her about your mistress. Let her make the decision. If my husband came to me with this info. I would in all likelihood let him have a mistress. As long as it didn't interfere with our day-to-day raising the kids. Hope this pickle works itself out with the least pain to your wifey. Good luck!


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Forgive me if this has been covered or discussed - have not read all the replies.

I am putting myself in your wife's shoes. I haven't been a great wife for a long time but lately have been trying to be better because maybe:

I know about hubs affair or
I can feel him pulling away or
I have done some research/counseling/read books on how to be a better wife or
"insert anything here."

Do I want to know about hubs 4-yr. affair? Yes
Do I have the right to know? Yes

From what I have read Richard, all your scenarios are about you & your children. Why are you not confessing your A to your wife right now?

Allow your wife the dignity of helping you make the "big choice."


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Emerald said:


> Forgive me if this has been covered or discussed - have not read all the replies.
> 
> I am putting myself in your wife's shoes. I haven't been a great wife for a long time but lately have been trying to be better because maybe:
> 
> ...


In attempt to give a final rundown (in efforts to avoid further redundancy) I will try to explain in a final Q&A format that sums up my feelings of the situation:

1) Does my wife have a RIGHT to know? Yes.
2) Does that mean my wife SHOULD know? Debatable.

EleGrl has also stated there are arguments to both sides of this debate. It can be as tricky as pro abortion vs. anti abortion.

3) Is my wife making changes to make our marriage better? Yes.

It didn't require her being witness to an affair to shake things up. Me moving out of the house is what finally told her I was serious about not tolerating the situation without some changes.

4) Is the affair primarily (or majority) my wife's fault? No.
5) Is the affair a sliver of my wife's fault? No.
6) Did my wife contribute to the animosity and resentment that led to me feeling I no longer care or value the relationship? Yes.
7) Is she most to blame for this? No. I would say it was near 50/50.
8) Have I made positive changes to make things better at home? Yes, but only slightly. I cannot make a "180 degree" turnaround as long as I'm in love with (or desire to be with) OW.
9) Am I open to making very strong committed changes to make the marriage the best it can be. Yes - if I am able to "see the light" and make the choice to stay home with the wife and family. I am also willing to visit MC and/or IC if it needs to get that far. If I am 100% on board with my wife and family I actually DO feel I will be capable of addressing my wife's needs cordially and make great improvements. If I sense either of us are slipping, I would immediately promote going to counseling.
10) If things get rough or unpleasant at home will I fall back into having an affair again? No. Absolutely not. I have already come to the crossroads of being disgusted with myself for being a cheater. Initially the attraction grew under the radar without either of us knowing it. Eventually it led to the discovery of emotional attachment, and snowballed from there. I also recognize the addictive nature of it, but I am very confident I am over the cheating. I have no desire to do that again.

I'm not addicted to the "cheating" or the "affair", but I was/am addicted to the OW. The OW is also completely on board with no longer cheating and living an honest & faithful life. Both of us still prefer & wish it could be with each other. I have discussed all the negatives with her today (we work together), and I believe she is also coming to the same conclusion the likelihood of us having success even if we divorce our spouses is very minimal.

Neither of us have a desire to cheat on our spouses any longer. Either we live honestly & faithfully with our spouses, or each other. Plain and simple.

11) Does the OW have any resentment towards me if we don't end up together? Yes, and no. The first time I attempted to leave (but recanted) she did. She was very hurt and devastated by it (and so was I). But now we have both are in a state where we have nearly surrendered to the reality of the unlikely situation things could possibly work out for us in the end. AffairCair gave EXCELLENT insight on the unknown HIDDEN costs (and damages) most people don't realize when going into such a situation. I believe I sort of "sensed" the danger of some of these problems lurking in the air... and just maybe that 6th sense of that (along with the wrongness and unfairness towards our spouses and children) were enough for me to snap back and not leave.

12) So OP "snapped out of it" and slipped back into affair mode. What's to stop OP and OW from doing that again? Plain and simple... we are both DONE being in limbo. We are DONE feeling awful for cheating. We are both ready to live an honest WHOLE life rather than 2 halves. While I cannot speak for her, I can speak for myself. I will NEVER CHEAT on my spouse ever again. I will constructively try my hardest to solve any problems. If I cannot solve them myself I will demand we go to counseling. If counseling doesn't work, then my next step will be to either separate or to live with mediocrity (assuming that is even an issue at that point).

13) Won't the guilt interfere with my capability of stepping up fully to the plate to be a great husband? I honestly do not believe so. I have always known my wife never DESERVED to be cheated on. It was a self-serving choice, and only spun out of control because of the intense high-passion & addictive nature of the attachment. If it was just a casual physical fling, or even a GF-type closeness it would not have gone on for 4 years. I completely realize the RELATIONSHIP aspect of our relationship to be somewhat "fantasy" because we both lacked the negatives of a real 24/7 situation. We were not exposed to each other's nagging bad habits. We were not exposed to life's daily problems. Etc., etc. I totally realize this. However, the INTERACTION aspect between us was completely out of this world... and if we were both single I would have likely proposed marriage to this woman within months (and not a decade like both our spouses in mine/her respective relationships).

14) By not telling my spouse, isn't she herself living a false lie? Absolutely Not. Ever since I moved out, the "old/previous" marriage sort of "died". She has already made great strides in improving things in effort to keep me very happy. And I've gotta acknowledge this. There is no doubt. Likewise, I know if I choose to be with my wife and kids, I will not just do it for the mindselt "to spare the kids & keep the "family" together. It would be more because I have surrendered hope the relationship between the OW and myself can reasonably work out in our favor.

And... because I refuse to live in a "semi-happy" state any longer I too can step up to the plate to make my wife's happiness a priority. Again... if we are both able to solve these things without counseling, great. If things don't work (or slip back to normal bad patterns), I will immediately recognize this and DO something about it.

So, in essence...

BOTH my wife and myself led into selfish immature "game playing" actions that led to the destruction of our relationship. I'm absolutely certain nearly ALL couples go through all types of psychological games (i.e., the "silent treatment" game... the "witholding sex & affection" game... the "staying really late at work" game... the "upping the ante on teaching lessons" game, etc.). Every game you can think of, my wife and I probably made it. Instead of teaching lessons it only fed into resentment and regret... to the point of INDIFFERENCE. Once that point was reached (of indifference), you would be very surprised how EASY it became to do the unthinkable... including having an emotional & physical affair.

Moving foward...

Assuming my wife was also only "semi-happy" these past several years, if I return home with an attitude I'm "ALL - IN" in making the marriage the very best possible and my attitude... love... and affection... sexual drive... etc... you name it is all showered on my wife (and not split between BS and OW), I can only imagine the hapiness my wife would feel would receive a huge morality boost. At least I hope it would.

I think we both have learned the games not to play by now. If we are both fully satisfied and content with the way things are progressing, great. No need to go to counseling. If they are still unsatisfactory (or slipping downhill), then counseling is mandatory.

I know for certain I do not need counseling to prevent further cheating. I have absolutely NO DESIRE to cheat. My wife and I never had the special connection on the passion/romance side. Our connection was more built on mutual interests and the children we are raising together. THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE!!! My wife and I need to have a special connection together for this to really work out. My wife needs to become my girlfriend again (and not just housemaid and mother). We both need to set time aside so we can be together as a couple (and not just parents to our children).

I do believe, with this mindset, my wife and I have an excellent chance at achieving something possibly close (interaction/passion/connection-wise) to what the OW and I have experienced. If I choose to stay with my wife that will be my willfull choice.

If my wife grows fonder... happier... and stronger (and more secure) in our relationship... and since I will never cheat on my wife again... and in time if we can both "fuel each other's fire" through the remaining years... I do not see any advantage to pull the rug under her feet and emotionally traumatize her.

Yes, I am making that choice FOR her. By keeping this a secret it's partially for my advantage (even at the cost of living with guilt for the rest of my life), and it's certainly VERY MUCH for our children's advantage (no question about it). Also, I feel it's in my wife's advantage *providing there are no further episodes of anything secretive*. If I happen to make another slip-up down the road (which I won't... that's a given), but hypothetically speaking IF that happened IMO that is the only reason why it may have been beneficial to disclose the ugly affair.

Obviously... MOST people would feel they would want to know. But I do know my wife better than the strangers on this board, and in her case she is better off not knowing (and would honestly prefer not knowing). In contrast, the OW would absolutely want to know everything that happened. But these two women have completely different personalities.

Anyway, I said my peace. The good news to all of this is from this point forward there is no cheating going on. And very soon a final decision will be made to the path I end up taking. It was great to meet all (correction... SOME) of you.

AffairCair: I will surely reply to your post as soon as I can! I've been very busy at work today. It will likely be a bulletin board post, but might be in a PM instead.

I haven't decided if I should keep this thread open to share the truthful news how things play out in this real-life drama or not. Given the amount of time and effort so many posters offered me I feel very compelled to keep this "family" in the loop on things.

As angry I am with some of the posters, I must say I am both shocked and impressed with the sheer amount of time and heartfelt effort many people spilled out... in their posts & letters in efforts to save me from making a potentially big mistake. I truly appreciate everything that was said, but please also understand this is my life to live and I do need to carve things out my own way... even if it ends being a big mistake it is something I will have to live with (not you guys).


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

#3. Really?! Seriously!???

And for Christ sakes with the semi-happy bull.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I just saw the movie "Ruby Sparks" and kept thinking about this thread the whole movie. You may want to go see this movie Richard. Its about a fantasy relationship that the main character created for himself. 

Your story and all of your posts take me back a couple of years ago when a friend was seeking advice about a similiar situation he was in. The only main difference was his affair was an online one - over a year long. Oddly enough my friend used the exact same words as you when describing his AP - "soul mate", "love of his life", "once in a lifetime connection", etc. etc. The EXACT same words. I could not convince him that is was not possible for him to know that she was all these things because he had never had a "real" relationship with her.

You Richard, in spite of your seemingly eternal denial of this FACT, can not know your AP is any of these because you have not had a "real" relationship with her. You have only had a "secret affair relationship" with her. And affair relationships are ALWAYS based on a fantasy world. They consist of two dishonest actors who are putting on a fake show, acting their best sexual, loving, friendly, fun, etc. personality trait impressions. It is easy to put on this kind of show for a couple of stolen hours here and there. But there is no way to put this kind of show on in a full time committed relationship. Its just not possible.

If the traits you are seeing in your AP during this "secret affair relationship" is what makes you think she is the love of your life - I strongly suggest you keep your relationship with her confined to a secret affair. That is the only way you will keep seeing those traits. They most likely won't withstand the test of real life though Richard - and I think deep down you know that. 

I really feel for your wife - even though you think she is oblivious to your affair. You see, knowing or not knowing about your affair, your wife is competing with a fantasy woman and a fake relationship. She can never compete with either. I would wager she is feeling the competition, even though she may not understand what she is competing with. *Your wife doesn't stand a chance, nor does your marriage, unless you FINALLY recognize and admit the FACT that your thinking process about your AP is based on what you WANT things to be not what they actually are! * This applies even if you don't tell her about the affair. If you read nothing else I write, I hope you will ponder deeply this bolded statement

As for my friend, he is in the middle of a divorce and his family (including 3 children) has been destroyed - his wife got tired of competing with a fantasy. His "soul mate" called things off because she could not stand herself for the pain that was being caused to the wife and children. And to top it off she was in a new relationship a couple months later. (so much for true love). My friend is now alone, but working on himself. (a little late considering the destructive mess that is left - but perhaps his next relationship will benefit). Oh - and BTW - he is still insisting the AP was his soul mate and once in a life time true love! (Some people really hold onto their fantasies)

It seems you are still pretty adament about not telling your wife about the affair if you stay with her. But I still feel compelled to give this advice: Man up and be honest for the first time in at least 4 years. Then let the chips fall where they fall! They will fall - eventually! You don't have any control of them anymore because you have already thrown them all in the air. Be honest with yourself Richard (this may take IC to do). Be honest with your wife (I strongly suggest this be done with a MC) (you owe that much to your kids). I was going to also say be honest with your AP but I realized that is not really possible - at least not until she has lived with the real Richard for as long as your wife has. 

Good luck Richard - just as I felt for my friend, I really feel emphathy for you. You have made quite a mess of things for everyone involved and its going to take a good mop to clean this one up!!! But, unfortunetely for all the inocent ones involved, no matter how hard you scrub - big ugly stains will remain for years to come!!!


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

sandc said:


> I couldn't read the whole thread because of so many of the long dissertations on it. However, I'm assuming this is a PA and not just an EA.
> 
> Richard, have you given any thought to what may happen if OW's husband finds out? What if he discovers what's going on and tells your wife? What if he wants to beat the crap out of you or worse what if he wants to ruin your career?
> 
> The status quo may change before you are ready for it...


Not to add any more "drama" (along with huge sighs & gasps)... the OW's husband unfortunately DID discover this relationship last year.

Fortunately for me he is not a stalking psycho. He initially had a strong desire to tell my wife. He chose not to for his own benefit (he feared if he told my wife his wife would likely leave). However... given the efforts he made (in attempts to improve THEIR marriage), it would be a devasting shock to him if his wife ended up leaving him anyway.

Given the time that has passed, it is quite likely as long as OW and her husband live reasonably happy together (with no more relationship between OW and myself) they will move on and carry on as best they can... as will I with my wife & family. If OW someday leaves her spouse, there's a very good chance OW's husband will contact my wife to spill all the beans (even if she left to be alone and not with me). And I suppose if that happens (that causes the affair to be discovered), I will need to come clean immediately with every detail up front & honest at that stage.

Several other posters have also mentioned staying in the relationship after the affair was discovered (and their spouse immediately came clean with everything). But in most of these cases they only came clean AFTER the discovery (not before).


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Given the time that has passed, it is quite likely as long as OW and her husband live reasonably happy together (with no more relationship between OW and myself) they will move on and carry on as best they can... as will I with my wife & family.


But what if they only have a SEMI-HAPPY life together?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> Several other posters have also mentioned staying in the relationship after the affair was discovered (and their spouse immediately came clean with everything). But in most of these cases they only came clean AFTER the discovery (not before).


This might very well be true.

However, if you search the threads, some of the very most poignant stories come from people who discover infidelity that happened long ago. They seem more unable than the average person to let go of the betrayal and to be unable to regain trust. Small wonder--they understand more than the average BS that cheaters evolve into Oscar-caliber liars.

I will tell you something about cheating that most cheaters fail to grasp: it's not about the sex. It's about the LYING.

Lying has this way of taking someone's deep love and squeezing it and trampling it until it's a shadow of its former self. You can do the come clean now, or the trickle truth later. But very few marriages survive trickle truth.

I'm unclear again on why your spouse doesn't deserve her own lengthy opportunity at finding a deep love outside the marriage. You had one.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Mary35: Wow, that's quite a story. It's really messed up (and very frightening) to see so many lives get needlessly destroyed.

An online affair is quite different from human face-to-face interaction though. There is no doubt the online affair is pure anonymous fantasy.

Even though I have been romantically involved with the OW for 4 years, I have known her personally for nearly 1 decade. Only the last 4 years developed into an actual relationship though! But I actually DO know the OW's bad and negative traits. Probably most of them. The first few months we both put on a really good "show" as you put it, but after that we really did naturally settle in to our comfortable normal selves. There were moments when the relationship was hot & exciting, and there were many more times when the interaction was calming & soothing.

Because I work so closely with her, I actually did get to know her on a REAL personal level (based on reality, not fantasy). I have known her a long time as a friend before anything really happened intimacy-wise. When I speak about the OW as the love of my life, it's specifically relating to the passion and precise way we interact. Yes, I realize our relationship did not have the burden of problems and resentments. And yes, this is why I acknoledge the AFFAIR aspect of the relationship completely leads to an unreal "fantasy". I am NOT talking about true-life compatibility... which... more than likely the OW and myself are probably NOT as "compatible" as my wife and I.

What I'm talking about is QUALITY of communication. QUALITY of interaction. QUALITY of romance. QUALITY of friendship. Etc... everything. On those accounts this specific OW was... absolutely without a shadow of a doubt the love of my life.

I also have zero doubts if we ended up together this quality of interaction would surely continue. But the other drama and baggage that would be compounded on us would likely be so overwhelming that it would take a serious toll on any ability to be successful. I'm sure there's also several "nibbling" things we are unaware of each other that might also chip away at the overal compatibility factor.

That being said, the communication and interaction that I emotionally and physically felt was completely out of this world (and... I'm sorry... THAT aspect was NOT a fantasy).


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> This might very well be true.
> 
> I'm unclear again on why your spouse doesn't deserve her own lengthy opportunity at finding a deep love outside the marriage. You had one.


Good point. I actually have a very strong feeling that my wife had a brief EA / slightly physical a long while ago while going through school. She was acting very "strange" one evening when coming home late. Serious look of guilt written all over her face. Other very strange red flags as well. Shortly after, things were quickly back to normal... so I let it go. I wasn't even all that angry about it to be honest. But I did keep my radar on very high to see if any other weird patterns emerged (but nothing did).

My personal belief is she had a very brief encounter but had the guts & courage to call it off before it got to serious (wise move on her part). This is just speculation though... as I am not 100% certain.

This whole coming clean thing is not about RIGHT or DESERVING. It's about damage control, plain & simple.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> This whole coming clean thing is not about RIGHT or DESERVING. It's about damage control, plain & simple.


I'm confused--don't you mean, the not coming clean thing? (Sorry, I'm not being sarcastic, just obtuse.)


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> #3. Really?! Seriously!???
> 
> And for Christ sakes with the semi-happy bull.


SomedayDig... Please... I'm trying my best to describe my personal situation. There *IS* an actual term called "SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE" google it.

Typically in an "awful" marriage, one spouse leaves.
Typically in a "good" marriage, no spouse cheats.
Typically in a "semi-happy" marriage, one (or both) spouses stray.

These are just statistics... and I fell into a statistic.

Just as... if I leave my wife to be with the "love of my life"... I would surely find that 0.75%-2.5% chance of success rate crashing down on the both of us. In that scenario, NOBODY wins.

Experiencing my relationship with the OW was both a blessing and a curse. The REAL connection was an amazing experience, but the emotional turmoil & cost surrounding this experience was quite severe.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> But what if they only have a SEMI-HAPPY life together?


The OW and myself have both learned a very hard lesson throughout this affair. A great amount of heartache was experienced. I experienced it. She experienced it. Her husband experienced it. Etc.

I am certain cheating will NEVER occur again in either of our future, plain & simple. Neither of us have the stomach for it anymore. Our mutual desire at this point is to live honest faithful lives, and not sneaking away for a shot of orgasmic dopamine. We would both resort to masturbation several times over instead if that's the urgent fix we need.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> SomedayDig... Please... I'm trying my best to describe my personal situation. There *IS* an actual term called "SEMI-HAPPY MARRIAGE" google it.
> 
> Typically in an "awful" marriage, one spouse leaves.
> Typically in a "good" marriage, no spouse cheats.
> ...


I think what many posters find offensive is that you seem to think your wife WANTS "semi-happy." The reason is, I suppose, that she hasn't asked for a divorce yet. Guess what--not everyone cheats because of "semi-happy." Some people are loyal, not selfish. They value their vows--they mean something.

Or perhaps neither one of you takes their vows seriously? In which case, I guess, semi-happy just means that the two of you coast until SHE finds the love of her life. Poetic justice, if so.

Once again, Richard, whether you like it or not, your central message is: entitlement.

First, you were entitled to your affair and deep love and connection.

Now, you're entitled to a semi-happy marriage, all with your wife still in the dark.

I really mean this sincerely, with no intention of hurting you, but you have to see how you come off: that it's all about YOUR happiness, not anyone else's. When you approach issues from this perspective, empathy for your wife can be supremely hard to come by. I get that.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

RichardCollier said:


> Mary35: Wow, that's quite a story. It's really messed up (and very frightening) to see so many lives get needlessly destroyed.
> 
> An online affair is quite different from human face-to-face interaction though. There is no doubt the online affair is pure anonymous fantasy.
> 
> ...


Wow Richard - you ponderd it how long - say a couple of seconds? 

Now after what you have written I really really feel sorry for your wife. She has zero chance of competing (fantasy or not) she has already lost the competition according to you - but will probably spend the rest of life trying and not even know what she is trying for!!!! So very very sad!


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I think what many posters find offensive is that you seem to think your wife WANTS "semi-happy." The reason is, I suppose, that she hasn't asked for a divorce yet. Guess what--not everyone cheats because of "semi-happy." Some people are loyal, not selfish. They value their vows--they mean something.
> 
> Or perhaps neither one of you takes their vows seriously? In which case, I guess, semi-happy just means that the two of you coast until SHE finds the love of her life. Poetic justice, if so.
> 
> ...


iheartlife: I'm just typing as fast as I can. I type so much on this board... day in, day out. Responding, and more responses. I'm NOT trying to sound un empathic, so I apologize if I come across that way. I'm TIRED!!! :-\

Let me correct the phrase: "Not everyone cheats because of 'semi-happy'". What I'm trying to explain is... the vast majority of those that DO cheat are because they are in "semi-happy" marriages.

Does that mean majority of semi-happy marriages end up with cheating spouses? NO!

Does that mean the majority of cheaters are in semi-happy marriages? YES!

(understand the difference?)

Semi-Happy marriages are also at the highest risk of divorce (even MORE than "awful" marriages). I think the reason for this is because the lack of passion. Most "awful" marriages there is still a lot of high-intense love & passion (as well as anger).

Oddly enough, most couples actually PREFER a roller-coaster ride of highs & lows than a flatline of mediocrity. Also, I have a feeling the semi-happy marriage syndrome tends to create risk for LONGER TERM affairs (much longer than a few weeks or months).

Again, I'm not trying to justify my actions. It's just that... in hindsight... I see everything so much more clearly than I did as I was experiencing it.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

mary35 said:


> Wow Richard - you ponderd it how long - say a couple of seconds?
> 
> Now after what you have written I really really feel sorry for your wife. She has zero chance of competing (fantasy or not) she has already lost the competition according to you - but will probably spend the rest of life trying and not even know what she is trying for!!!! So very very sad!


Mary...

If my wife chose to only behave in the matter she has done the past several years (minus last year), then yes... you are right... absolutely there is no competing with the OW (fantasy or not).

However... as I've said many times... this past year she has made TREMENDOUS improvements to not only our marriage but also our personal relationship. This cannot be denied. This is why I keep trying to explain that if I choose my wife & family there will NOT be any "competing" for attention. I will be ALL-IN with my wife and family no holds barred.

All I can say is... to those people who have NEVER experienced a love sooooo compelling... so addicting... so intense & passionate... you are also SO INCREDIBLY LUCKY to miss out on that experience if you cannot have it in a real relationship.

To the people who actually HAVE this relationship with your spouses... you are also SO INCREDIBLY LUCKY to HAVE that! Don't you ever for once mistreat or take someone like that for granted.

Many times I wish I have never experienced the love I had with this OW. In this case I too could live semi-happy and blissfully ignorant.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm sorry because there are more of us than you, so you may feel ganged-up upon. Certainly no need to race to post--you can always post a short 'I'm trying to catch up and answer' so that people will lay off posting.

My comment about semi-happy was actually about your marriage on a going-forward basis--mediocrity with you continuing not to tell your wife so she doesn't get the same chance at happiness that you grasped with both hands. The entitlement I referenced wasn't so much your affair (although of course that was included) as it was entitlement to not tell your wife. It works both ways, entering and exiting the affair, and your desire to adhere to what makes YOU the most comfortable / happy is (again no offense intended, just how you sound) the reigning standard of the day.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> Me moving out of the house is what finally told her I was serious about not tolerating the situation without some changes.


All the while deeply in love with your soulmate, puting all your emotional energy onto some else. Entitlement, narcissism at finest.Emotional abuse.


> Have I made positive changes to make things better at home? Yes, but only slightly. I cannot make a "180 degree" turnaround as long as I'm in love with (or desire to be with) OW.


Complete denial, self bush1ting. You can't possible say seriously you put an ounce on the table the last four years! You have been cheating for 4 years, dude!


> I know for certain I do not need counseling to prevent further cheating. I have absolutely NO DESIRE to cheat


You had not in the past. You fell on the slippery slope with a friend/coworker. Cliche.


> The good news to all of this is from this point forward there is no cheating going on


Do you mean since tomorrow? Just today you were discussing the possiblilities with your AP, right? You will see her at work (your soulmate you are in luuurv) dayly. No chance in hell you get your head out of your ass in that circunstances. No chance for your marriage at all, specially whith BW in the dark.


> Fortunately for me he is not a stalking psycho. He initially had a strong desire to tell my wife. He chose not to for his own benefit (he feared if he told my wife his wife would likely leave). However... given the efforts he made (in attempts to improve THEIR marriage), it would be a devasting shock to him if his wife ended up leaving him anyway


NO ampathy at all. I have no doubt you will run away in case you are busted, now or in the future. You have no empathy for your wife now (deep down you know you are abusing her) and you won't in the future.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

One word. Karma. It's a *****.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm done agruing. I explained my stance as best as I could.

I do not agree with the consensus of coming clean. Given the specific situation I am in, I never will agree that is the best choice.

If I stay in my marriage, I realize that very strong positive changes need to be made on my side of things. And if that is the path I choose, I know I am able and willing to do that. The ONLY reason why I have not improved this past year was because of my hope & desire to figure out a way if things could possibly work out with the OW. If that hope dies, I know I can move on and work very hard at rebuilding the life back home my wife & family deserves.

I'm hoping the pain of guilt will fade overtime as the pain of grief of losing the person I consider to be the love of my life. But on the hopeful side of things... it's quite possible my wife and I may rekindle many things into our relationship that might bring these pretty close. Yes, I have doubts it could ever be as exciting & fulfilling as the relationship with OW. But even if it was half that... it would be miles & miles above the "semi-happy" state I was in for many many years.

I'm going back to lurker mode now. Goodnight everyone.

p.s. I still haven't forgotten about you, AffairCair! I promise I will respond as soon as I can.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

Acabado said:


> All the while deeply in love with your soulmate, puting all your emotional energy onto some else. Entitlement, narcissism at finest.Emotional abuse.


You have no idea what you're talking about, Acabado. Quit judging other people when you have not lived the experience. I didn't fall in love with OW so that I could feel "entitled". I never felt entitled because I fell in love with her either. It was a very painful & stressful time. Let's see how you handle things if you fall in love as intense & deeply as I have, and the strong overriding focus on your heart is to try your best to be with person you have these types of feelings for. There is nothing emotionally abusive or narcissitic about it. Is it SELFISH, yes. Narcissitic or emotional abuse??? Absolutely NOT. You also have no clue what the terms are and why I moved out of the house.



Acabado said:


> Complete denial, self bush1ting. You can't possible say seriously you put an ounce on the table the last four years! You have been cheating for 4 years, dude!


Actually, I have made some subtle improvements. These improvements are more in "offering more help around the house" to give my wife some added free time. But obviously... you LIVE AND BREATHE in our house and are the expert at what improvents were made and not.



Acabado said:


> You had not in the past. You fell on the slippery slope with a friend/coworker. Cliche.


The difference between then & now. THEN = no personal experience in cheating. NOW = 4 years personal experience in cheating. No need to be "curious" about the other side again. Been there, done that. I suppose you feel it's impossible for people to learn from their mistakes, huh?



Acabado said:


> Do you mean since tomorrow? Just today you were discussing the possiblilities with your AP, right? You will see her at work (your soulmate you are in luuurv) dayly. No chance in hell you get your head out of your ass in that circunstances. No chance for your marriage at all, specially whith BW in the dark.


Sigh. I know it's very difficult for you to u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d what I am saying. I will speak more sloooowly so you get it. I am referring to no longer having a physical & emotional affair. That aspect with the OW has stopped until a decision is made in the near future. While I'm still crunching things through my head, I have already made the choice to cease romantic contact with the OW. This took a great deal of will power and effort, and IMO is the first step in healing on either account. If I stay at home I have begun the "weaning process" already. If I end up with OW, the physical & emotional aspect will no longer be an affair, but a reality to celebrate. Either way we are already on the path of moving forward to not be a cheater.



Acabado said:


> NO ampathy at all. I have no doubt you will run away in case you are busted, now or in the future. You have no empathy for your wife now (deep down you know you are abusing her) and you won't in the future.


Once again, you try to read emotions into the style of my writing. You have no idea the pain I have gone through these past 4 years... both in missing the OW and also the unfairness to my family. You are really GREAT at judging people. What's great about pompass people like yourself is they seldom realize when they are pointing the finger at someone there are 3 pointing right back at them. Next time take a close look at yourself in the mirror.

(signing out)


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

RichardCollier said:


> I do not agree with the consensus of coming clean. Given the specific situation I am in, I never will agree that is the best choice.


Of course not. That would take pure courage, Richard.

Your wife will never know the real you because you have robbed her of that. Trust me, if this becomes a death bed confession, you will probably kill her.

Just sayin.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

You know, it's hard to say who to pity most, OP's wife, who is totally in the dark and perhaps will remain so; never given an opportunity to CHOOSE whether to stay married to a cheater or to seek her own happiness the way that he 'accidentally' did; or,

his AP's husband, who evidently knows about the affair, has elected NOT to tell OP's wife because he fears she would dump OP! And has to live with OP working side-by-side with the AP indefinitely, apparently. (But no sex--because you're only cheating if you are having sex )

Which I guess explains why OP isn't telling, either. He probably guesses that the OWH is right.


That reminds me Richard--check out the link in my signature for Not Just Friends, only excerpted on google but you may decide to actually buy it.


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## DG3 (Jul 13, 2011)

RichardCollier said:


> I'm done agruing. I explained my stance as best as I could.
> 
> _I do not agree with the consensus of coming clean. Given the specific situation I am in, I never will agree that is the best choice._
> 
> Not the best choice for YOU! The situation you are in???? You made the situation! YOU! Seems as if it's always about you. Your needs not being met. You not being hurt from the disclosure. You are in so in love. Always you! I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but now I'm just getting fed up with you. You are selfish. She needs to know and she needs to make her own choice! We are all on here talking about this poor woman it feels awful. She has no clue any of us are discussing her future and her heart. This is so sad. YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE CHOICES FOR HER. Get over yourself! I really wish someone would tell her for you since you don't have the guts to do what is right. Oh wait I forgot, it's all about you.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> I feel like I'm witnessing a computer program that's stuck in a do-loop.
> 
> Richard, I applaud you for sticking around for three days. However, I have one word for you:
> 
> COWARD!


I was thinking the same thing about the do loop. We all been trying to insert a break statement.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> AffairCair: I will surely reply to your post as soon as I can! I've been very busy at work today. It will likely be a bulletin board post, but might be in a PM instead.
> 
> I haven't decided if I should keep this thread open to share the truthful news how things play out in this real-life drama or not. Given the amount of time and effort so many posters offered me I feel very compelled to keep this "family" in the loop on things.
> 
> As angry I am with some of the posters, I must say I am both shocked and impressed with the sheer amount of time and heartfelt effort many people spilled out... in their posts & letters in efforts to save me from making a potentially big mistake. I truly appreciate everything that was said, but please also understand this is my life to live and I do need to carve things out my own way... even if it ends being a big mistake it is something I will have to live with (not you guys).


First--take your time. I wrote a very long reply, and I knew getting into it that if I actually "got into it" and replied with my whole being that it would take a lot out of me and probably be somewhat hard for you to hear So reply at your leisure and if needed, break it up into smaller replies. You may also want to start a new thread just to keep our mutual exchange of ideas going. 

Second--I warned you it wouldn't be easy here!  What? You thought I was kidding? LOL :lol: Okay, I suspect you hear some of these are harshly as I do, but I hope you'll bear in mind that many/most of the people replying to you are in the position of your wife--that is to say their spouse cheated on them, they had to TRIP on it and find out by accident--and they were not prepared for that level of betrayal and for their world to explode. Anyway, keep that in mind and the fact that I think people sincerely hope/wish that you'd say, "Wow I see the light. I was think of this almost exactly backward!" and it's frustrating that somehow our words are not making it through as much as we wish. 

So I'd like to suggest letting a few of those comments roll off your back, or if they seem particularly mean, report them and let the moderators moderate! Personally, I don't stand for people calling someone names or saying "ALL DISLOYALS ARE JERKS" because that's just flaming and against the forum rules. Finally if someone just keeps replying and they drive you nuts...put them on ignore. We don't all get along and some folks just rub others the wrong way, and there's no need for you to be all hurt by people who are prickly to ya  

Okay soldier on. Don't give up. Keep talking!


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Of course not. That would take pure courage, Richard.
> 
> Your wife will never know the real you because you have robbed her of that. Trust me, if this becomes a death bed confession, you will probably kill her.
> 
> Just sayin.


Taking a brief break from work to catch up on some things.

First off - SomedayDig: The last 4 years I did rob my wife of the highest love & affection possible. Prior to that, the last several years my wife robbed ME of the highest love & affection possible. While she did it by aloofness and neglect, I solved it by more extreme measures. In the end did it make me feel better? NO. Did it make me feel better about myself? NO.

Everyone loves to talk about how I robbed my spouse, but nobody gives a crap at how my life was in the dumps... simply because the wife didn't do the "dastardly unthinkable deed". I guess if I chose to do the aloofness and neglect (and she did the unspeakable act) everyone would be on my side and totally against her. The bottom line... what DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? One form of betrayal apparantly is just more politically correct than the other. And yes... I did try several times over to improve and change things (only to see them always reverting back). Of course, nobody on this board listens to that.

And if I stay with spouse keeping the affair a buried secret, I will not confess anything on my death bed. It will die with me. As far as I'm concerned, if my wife and I are able to reconcile and move past what's happened not only these past 4 years but the past decade PLUS... I will happily consider the old marriage the "dead" one and the new marriage the real valid one. Because in sooooo many ways I have never felt we really had a true husband/wife relationship to begin with.

CountOfMonteCristo: Coward, huh? Why don't you try to come up with some other negative slanders besides the "C" word you've been saying over and over. Besides, takes one to know one, right? I bet you are one of those road rage guys that cuss and slander other drivers in the umbrella of your anonymity... just as you do here with your posts. Do us all a favor, dude. If you can't say something helpful and constructive, don't waste your time (or mine). Kiss off!

People like you can laugh and scoff all you like. This is a very serious life-changing situation I am facing. It is not only very stressful, but very depressing (no matter which way the buck falls). Obviously I made my own bed on this situation. But even if I didn't "make my own bed" the life I was living was stressful and depressing. What people llike you don't understand that the state of my life was a LOSE-LOSE scenario no matter what. I can see a lot of slanderous & critical nit-picking going on with many "victims" on this board. I actually have a good feeling many of these "victims" pushed (i.e., ABUSED as Acabado likes to phrase it) their straying spouse to find comfort elsewhere.

Seriously... do you guys actually believe I married someone just so I can risk my job... my house... my family... my retirement... just so I can CHEAT???? The logical thinking you guys spit out is beyond disbelief. All you guys think of is over-generalizations. Obviously, this is why counseling is miuch more important than a bunch of "groupies" on a bulletin board with their friendly social networking clicks. A true expert can dive beneath the rubble and get down to the facts and what the true problems really are.

And finally to AffairCair: I've read and reread your post a few times. It was ***EXTREMELY*** informative. I also shared this letter with my OW this morning, and she also was very enlightened by it (and was equally impressed with what you had to say). BTW (just for the record)... me communicating and discussing the future with the OW is NOT "cheating" on the spouse. The discussion we have flips between pro "us" and against "us". Getting her (the OW) to see the reality of the situation we would face is just as important as me seeing the light. Once a final decision is made, then at that point any contact discussing a potential "future" would be a form of cheating. But for the next day or so everything is on hold.

Also, I read the other article you gave... about success from affair-born relationships. Does NOT look very promising at all I'm afraid. The bottom line is that I feel there is a HUGE difference between a marriage with a spouse vs. a marriage with a spouse + family. Once family gets in the mix, it completely raises the bar and makes everything a lot more complicated (but also potentially rewarding too if you are fortunate to be married to the right person). Not only one that doesn't "push your buttons" in the wrong way all the time but also (more important) one that could never possibly CHEAT on the other. The fact that I actually DID do the unthinkable act to cheat on my spouse kind of tells me that maybe the mistake was that I married the wrong person. I suppose people would prefer to think I have the "cheating gene" in my DNA and would not matter who I was married to... but man oh man... I completely beg to differ!

And yes, I will make my longer reply to you in "chunks" (just as you did). Many thanks again for your wonderful CONSTRUCTIVE time, AffairCair. It's too bad the other 90% doesn't exhibit the same wisdom you have, but IMO that's where the true "trolls" are on the Internet anyway. Going back to work now.

(signing off)


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

It is funny you know, the Monty Python Dead Parrot script describes your actions perfectly. You are maintaining that the Parrot is alive and has beautiful plumage, which it does. It is just that it is nailed to the perch.

See the thing is you took the information that AC patiently typed out directly to your AP.
So you are using us to finance your Affair. I suspect your wife knows and has lost interest in you. I suspect your friends have lost interest. Nobody really cares anymore about your drama anymore do they.

So, now you are here, soaking up the attention. Confiding in your AP the information you get here about how you should not do that, resurrecting one last little spark of the drama that has become the life you have. Hoping to start a new flame war.

You have to do this to keep the affair alive. Without drama, you know. and your AP knows, it will die. The vehemence with which you say how much you LOVE HER.. LOVE HER.. LOVE HER..
'The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

You are not tired of it at all. You are reveling in it. You only make any definitive decision ,as to anything, when someone decides that you are no longer worth any effort and decides to leave you alone in your drama filled world.


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## RichardCollier (Aug 10, 2012)

ing said:


> It is funny you know, the Monty Python Dead Parrot script describes your actions perfectly. You are maintaining that the Parrot is alive and has beautiful plumage, which it does. It is just that it is nailed to the perch.
> 
> See the thing is you took the information that AC patiently typed out directly to your AP.
> So you are using us to finance your Affair. I suspect your wife knows and has lost interest in you. I suspect your friends have lost interest. Nobody really cares anymore about your drama anymore do they.
> ...


Wrong again, Ing. Once again you bozo theorists have no clue what is really going on. First of all... the information AffairCair wrote is in DISFAVOR of the affair. I forwarded the message to the OW so she could read it due to the severe cautionary warnings she provided. I showed this to her for concern our relationship (me + OW) would *NOT* succeed... even though we both "in the fog" believed "love conquers all" and it could. It was not to stir up silly & ridiculous "drama" in some way to "spark" the affair. What a stupid theory. But that's all you commenters do... criticize and pose theory after theory of what you assume the truth is. Don't you think if I wanted to injustly PUSH for more "affair time" I would show her something in a POSITIVE light in our favor? I swear... the idiocy of the logic some of you guys have boggles my mind.

You are not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist. Quit trying to act like one. You are not even a semi-trained counselor and really are not capable (or worthy) of giving good advice to any couple IMO. The one worthy thing about the recent flame wars is that it enabled me to cross off the legitimate intelligent posters from the troll consipracy theorists.

The only reason why things appear "high drama" right now is simply because I am sick and tired of the bad-mouthing. Why don't you guys get out and GET A LIFE??? I politely took this crap during the first wave of postings, and am not allowing it to continue.

None of my close friends know about my personal life situation. I came on here anonymously to seek wisdom and advice from this board. Not stupid & ridiculous consipracy theorists talking smack and garbage. Mr. Ing... I'm actually disappointed that you have stooped into that category. All it means now is that I can simply omit everything you previously said, and stay focused on the more legitimate posters.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Richard,
What bothes me about your approach is the lack of balance of power between you and your wife. I mean, you leave (much like my spouse did), you had an affair where you disclosed everything to the AP but your spouse has NO knowledge of it (like my spouse did), you were everyday comparing your spouse (whose been with you for years btw) to some floosy at work WITHOUT YOUR SPOUSE'S KNOWLEDGE, and you mention how hard your wife is working to make changes WHILE YOU SIT BACK AND EVALUATE HER PROGRESS - while she has NO CLUE as to what went on - it is a TOTAL POWER TRIP man and that alone signifies what is wrong in the marriage. You know in the heart of your soul, that if you told your wife the shift of power in the relationship would go to her but your not willing to humble yourself to that - your only willing to have the relationship on YOUR terms - which is probably why it was SEMI happy - only one person working on it.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

You are the first person I have ever reported as abusive.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Oh yea, when my wife left with a barrage of complaints against me - I said to her "you were no saint to live with either honey" - moody, emotionally unavailable, critical" she was no picnic either but I didnt cheat.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

His personality really shines through in his last few posts, and explains his cheating better than whatever he cobbled together here.


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