# In search of guidance and mentor...



## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

I am hoping to find a few good people that have successfully saved their marriage/relationship after an affair. I need advice and direction and moral support from people who have already embarked on the journey I am just starting out on. I need help from both parties, W & B, so I can also get perspective from the other side. 

I need to be shown that it is possible to get through this. I want to know what really helped get you through it all. I don't mean the generic MC, FD etc. I mean when you would just be in your day to day activities how did you get through it. 

I do have real questions, but I'd like to ask individually to your own personal story and experience.

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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

peacefulHEART said:


> I am hoping to find a few good people that have successfully saved their marriage/relationship after an affair. I need advice and direction and moral support from people who have already embarked on the journey I am just starting out on. I need help from both parties, W & B, so I can also get perspective from the other side.
> 
> I need to be shown that it is possible to get through this. I want to know what really helped get you through it all. I don't mean the generic MC, FD etc. I mean when you would just be in your day to day activities how did you get through it.
> 
> ...


*I would greatly think that any good start in doing this should require details of the specifics within your given situation!

Given that, please feel free to proceed!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok PH, here's the bottom line on why people cheat. They have an unmet need. It may be an addiction, an appetite for something no one person can fill, a lack of love, affection, and respect for their spouse, and a host of other things. But it ultimately comes back to an unmet need. 
That's not to say its the betrayed spouse's fault, or that the betrayed spouse can do anything about it. Like any other decision where a road is taken and a willful tort is committed, that decision solely rest on the tortfeasor. However, I've seen a number of cases where the betrayed spouse's actions or inactions were the impetus for the cheating to start.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> I am hoping to find a few good people that have successfully saved their marriage/relationship after an affair. I need advice and direction and moral support from people who have already embarked on the journey I am just starting out on. I need help from both parties, W & B, so I can also get perspective from the other side.


I can tell you what works and doesn't work. You see, my old self had a number of bad habits. My ex had some as well, and excused herself from the relationship several times. Ultimately, it wasn't the cheating that ended that relationship, just distancing from one-another.



> I need to be shown that it is possible to get through this. I want to know what really helped get you through it all. I don't mean the generic MC, FD etc. I mean when you would just be in your day to day activities how did you get through it.


It just takes time. The betrayed spouse has some self-improvement to do. The cheater has some self-improvement to do. What we can't do is to get into a war of blame and guilt. It goes both way. I ask people what do they expect, when they have a relationship that lacks emotional connection. Humans are physiologically driven to seek connection. Bet on it to happen.



The answer is to focus on what was lacking in the relationship. Each individual needs to focus inward. What you can not do, is take the blame entirely on yourself, or vice versa. Even though the cheating action is 100% the fault of the cheater, we still have to realize that it is predictable, if there was significant distance in the relationship.


What will help the most is to learn how to live in the moment. The past is the past, and it can always creep up and haunt you. That said, with acceptance and understanding, one can acknowledge the past and let it reside there. If you live in the moment, you realize that there is no present problem. Again, there is no present problem. There is only a present problem, because of the pain that arises from the past cheating action/s. Literally, that means that individuals need to be loving towards one-another.



"but he/she cheated on me!"



Is a common statement from the betrayed. To that, we have to be logical. If that person can't get over it, they must move on. Both partners deserve love and happiness.


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I can tell you what works and doesn't work. You see, my old self had a number of bad habits. My ex had some as well, and excused herself from the relationship several times. Ultimately, it wasn't the cheating that ended that relationship, just distancing from one-another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm having a hard time with this b/c WH actions weren't due to a lack of affection or connection. We had a really great relationship until he started a new job. He became a bartender and started receiving a lot of attention from a lot of people. It started to feed his ego and the outside attention became more enticing than the duties of family life. I only started emotionally disconnecting from him when I felt him start to pull back from me. 

That's why I'm finding working through this so difficult. He really had no reason to do what he did. My sex drive was always higher than his and he's always been pretty selfish in that area as well. I never denied him anything and only started to when I started realizing he was lying.

Not to mention that we had a brand new baby at home.

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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

How do you stay in the moment and not let the hurt surface and keep the horrible images out of your head?

Did MC really help you?

For the WS do you still think about/miss your AP? Did you miss them in the beginning? Did you ever try recreating intimate moments with your BS that you engaged in with your AP?

For the BS how long has it been since the A? How long before you were able to stop seeing the AP everytime you looked at your WS? Are you truly happy and glad you stayed? What did your WS do to really help you get passed your hurt and anger?



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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> I'm having a hard time with this b/c WH actions weren't due to a lack of affection or connection. We had a really great relationship until he started a new job. He became a bartender and started receiving a lot of attention from a lot of people. It started to feed his ego and the outside attention became more enticing than the duties of family life. I only started emotionally disconnecting from him when I felt him start to pull back from me.
> 
> That's why I'm finding working through this so difficult. He really had no reason to do what he did. My sex drive was always higher than his and he's always been pretty selfish in that area as well. I never denied him anything and only started to when I started realizing he was lying.
> 
> ...


What was the sex situation like, during the pregnancy?

How were the hormones and your mood?


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> What was the sex situation like, during the pregnancy?
> 
> How were the hormones and your mood?


My SD was VERY high during both my pregnancies. I wanted to be with him every day, but he didn't. He wanted sex maybe once a week or every 2 weeks. 

My hormones were pretty level, but we did argue a lot over his family. They caused some tension between us, but nothing detrimental.

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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

It will take a lot of work on both your parts, to save the marriage. Has he quit the bartending job? I hope so or you are going to have an even harder time getting through this.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Let me inform you of the real reason people cheat, lack of intellect. Now there are other names by which this is known, immaturity, stupidity and so forth but the root problem is lack of cognitive ability. You must understand that every "choice" or decision that anyone makes is made using the data at hand. It is usually a very complex set of variables and it requires significant mental ability to recognize, disseminate, extrapolate and project. If there is insufficient mental ability to fully carry out all of these "processes" then the resultant answer is flawed.

We, each of us, go through this process but some simply lack the maturity, intelligence, synaptic network or whatever other descriptive term you care to use, and the "choice" turns out, once their mind catches up to their body, to be a bad one. Some do not even have enough cognition to recognize their bad "choices" even in light of their cataclysmic results.

So, if you are intent on R then you must be willing to treat your H as you would a child or teenager, depending on how limited his intellect is.

I can expound on this if you so desire.


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

Lostme said:


> It will take a lot of work on both your parts, to save the marriage. Has he quit the bartending job? I hope so or you are going to have an even harder time getting through this.


No, and this is why I am having such I hard time with it all. His AP was a co-worker. He says she quit, but honestly I don't know if that's true. He says he hasn't talked to her, but I don't know if that's true. He says he knows how bad he messed up and will never lie to me again. I can't bring myself to believe anything he says. I told him yesterday if he told me the sky is blue I wouldn't believe him.


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> 
> 
> So, if you are intent on R then you must be willing to treat your H as you would a child or teenager, depending on how limited his intellect is.
> ...


Please do.

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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

peacefulHEART said:


> Please do.
> 
> Sent from my LG-K540 using Tapatalk




I would tend to discount posts in which people have "the" reason why cheaters do what they do especially if they are not a BS or a WS. There are many reasons, the two most common are unmet needs and finding an escape from reality, meaning something at home. Sometimes it is both. 

Finding out the reason comes through discussion with your H. If you treat him like a child imo the R will fail. 




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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

peacefulHEART said:


> He says he hasn't talked to her, but I don't know if that's true. He says he knows how bad he messed up and will never lie to me again. I can't bring myself to believe anything he says. I told him yesterday if he told me the sky is blue I wouldn't believe him.


They all say that so only believe what you can confirm yourself. He should give you password to everything in his phone and show u all communications he has. This is hard work, you need patience and time, and you have to have done faith left in you for him


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I would tend to discount posts in which people have "the" reason why cheaters do what they do especially if they are not a BS or a WS. There are many reasons, the two most common are unmet needs and finding an escape from reality, meaning something at home. Sometimes it is both.
> 
> Finding out the reason comes through discussion with your H. If you treat him like a child imo the R will fail.
> 
> ...


I know we have to find our own way with communication, MC, and IC. That's why I posted this thread. It wasn't so much as "what went wrong or why did it happen" but more so I was hoping to get insight on relationships that successfully R. And what the road to R was like. What the setbacks were like. How your individual experiences were, and how you managed your own emotions through the darkest of times.

I am going through this and I don't know if I'm handling things appropriately or not. I need perspective.

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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

peacefulHEART said:


> No, and this is why I am having such I hard time with it all. His AP was a co-worker. He says she quit, but honestly I don't know if that's true. He says he hasn't talked to her, but I don't know if that's true. He says he knows how bad he messed up and will never lie to me again. I can't bring myself to believe anything he says. I told him yesterday if he told me the sky is blue I wouldn't believe him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-K540 using Tapatalk


He needs to look for a different job.

His still being there is triggering you, which is only natural.

And as the cheater he gets to do the heavy lifting.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

peacefulHEART said:


> I am hoping to find a few good people that have successfully saved their marriage/relationship after an affair. I need advice and direction and moral support from people who have already embarked on the journey I am just starting out on. I need help from both parties, W & B, so I can also get perspective from the other side.
> 
> I need to be shown that it is possible to get through this. I want to know what really helped get you through it all. I don't mean the generic MC, FD etc. I mean when you would just be in your day to day activities how did you get through it.
> 
> I do have real questions, but I'd like to ask individually to your own personal story and experience.


People cheat for different reasons. They have an unmet need, probably something they have always had, even pre-marriage, and they attempt to get it met in an inappropriate way. Another way is saying it is that something in them is "broken."

i.e. They have a low self esteem and get excited when someone (not their wife) pays attention to them....it turns into an affair.

i.e. They feel lonely, or aren't getting the attention/love they want, so they go outside the marriage.

i.e. They are passive aggressive, have a low self esteem, and have learned to be deceptive, feel entitled, etc.

None of those examples are the BSes fault, especially if the WS has never been honest wtih the BS about their need.

I believe the reasons for infideltiy are mainly psychological/emotional, not sexual, even if sex happens as part of the cheating.

For you to heal, I suspect you will need to see your husband being completely transparent with you, and willing to work on his "whys?" without blaming you for anything.

I could give you a long list of books that have helped us, but start with After the Affair. You could also purchase Not Just Friends. Both of you need to read these books, not just you.

Depending on what you discover about your husband's "whys", there will be other books that can help you or your husband.

I do want to caution you of one thing: no matter how many books you read about how to heal from affairs, how to improve your marriage, etc., you won't be able to heal or fix your marriage all by yourself. Your husband is going to have to do most of the heavy lifting. If he refuses, or is emotionally incapable of doing some deep introspection, your pain will be prolonged, and the only way you will find peace is without him in your life.

Ironically, only when I realized that last paragraph I wrote to you, and had left the marriage in my heart, did my husband finally begin to do his part.

Is your husband doing any soul searching, or reading about why he did it?


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> He needs to look for a different job.
> 
> His still being there is triggering you, which is only natural.
> 
> And as the cheater he gets to do the heavy lifting.


Yes, I agree. Everytime he walks out the front door I feel like nothing has changed. He works 13 hours (or so he says) and I spend the entire time reliving the last year of my life. By the time he walks in the front door I unload on him all over again. He says he wants to get another job, but then he talks about staying there part time or transferring with the company and moving out of state next year. So I know he really doesn't want to quit. 

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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> My SD was VERY high during both my pregnancies. I wanted to be with him every day, but he didn't. He wanted sex maybe once a week or every 2 weeks.
> 
> My hormones were pretty level, but we did argue a lot over his family. They caused some tension between us, but nothing detrimental.
> 
> Sent from my LG-K540 using Tapatalk


There is understanding that is missing from your responses. This means that there is probably some lack of communication and a lack of a thorough analysis of the information at hand.

Pregnancies can cause a tremendous amount of problems for a relationship. It could be disconnection from you, for hundred's of reasons. It could also be from him, from things like less attraction in your direction, extra parental responsibilities, and losing his identity.



You said that there were arguments that weren't that detrimental. Maybe they were enough for him.



If the relationship was very strong, then it is going to be much harder to forgive and forget. 



I am confident that there is some more information that needs to come to light. The thing is, he will likely feel uncomfortable divulging the full truth. But, we need the full truth.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> He needs to look for a different job.
> 
> His still being there is triggering you, which is only natural.
> 
> And as the cheater he gets to do the heavy lifting.




I fully agree. 

Also, don't overlook him being there will trigger HIM and his feelings towards his AP. That will slow R. Any contact even visual should be avoided. He might think he can handle it and just avoid her or bury any emotions he has for her. He can't. 

How was the affair discovered? Did he just tell you, did you discover or did a coworker out him? If he revealed it first, you have a slightly better chance at R as it shows he might be willing to do the heavy lifting. 

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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> People cheat for different reasons. They have an unmet need, probably something they have always had, even pre-marriage, and they attempt to get it met in an inappropriate way. Another way is saying it is that something in them is "broken."
> 
> i.e. They have a low self esteem and get excited when someone (not their wife) pays attention to them....it turns into an affair.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the book suggestions. 
No, as of yet he's not done anything to even really prove himself (in a way I or any BS would need). He just says he's not lying and he'd never hurt me like that again. I try to talk about things and he shuts down. I know he's embarrassed, guilty, and ashamed. And I was hoping once we start MC he will open up more. I discovered the A by recording a conversation they had. He has tried to tell me things aren't the way I perceive. I told him he's gaslighting and rather than trying to convince me that I didn't hear what I heard. Admit to himself things were exactly what I heard.

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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

The adultery will keep eating at you until you decide what your bottom line is, and he meets it or you decide you don't want to suffer anymore (and you leave him.)


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> There is understanding that is missing from your responses. This means that there is probably some lack of communication and a lack of a thorough analysis of the information at hand.
> 
> Pregnancies can cause a tremendous amount of problems for a relationship. It could be disconnection from you, for hundred's of reasons. It could also be from him, from things like less attraction in your direction, extra parental responsibilities, and losing his identity.
> 
> ...


I have another post explaining the downward slope we started taking, but the pregnancy was planned and initiated on his part. I have no problem communicating my feelings to him, but he is a stone and won't tell me anything he feels. To be completely honest I felt our relationship was strong and we were good. I thought he had exactly what he wanted b/c that's what he'd tell me. 

So yes there is a severe lack of communication on his part. But, there was so much more than cheating going on. He was living a completely different life. He had a whole set of friends and a whole different personality. It's like he threw in the towel on his real life and became a real low life. 

I know the analysis is to figure out what was going on at home, but I think he just got bored and liked the attention. Home was great. I looked forward to him coming home everyday. I had his dinner ready and the house clean, I'd iron his clothes in the morning for work. I potty trained my 2yo w/o his help, homeschooled my 11yo w/o his help, and nursed my newborn and woke up in the middle of the night 100% of the time as well as 100% of the diaper duty. I did and do it all. 

I am trying to figure out where I went wrong so I can acknowledge my part in our relationship issues, but even when I ask he says it had nothing to do with me. He keeps telling me I'm perfect. Which honestly I don't want to hear. He tells me he wants me to be affectionate with him now and to just love him and be there for him, but I don't feel he has the right to ask me that.

I was holding back some info at the risk of not wanting all the advice I received to immediately be "leave him" but for the sake of full disclosure I'll share. Obviously, we both know he needs a lot of help.

He has a substance abuse problem that I always thought was recreational until all this happened. He smokes marijuana and now it's legal in the state I live in. But, he told me things started with the AP b/c him and his co-workers would go to the bar after work and the OW was always there. She started flirting with him and he started flirting back. They started getting high together and things progressed from there. 

I've never minded him smoking privately and occasionally before so it's not like he had to hide it from me.



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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I fully agree.
> 
> Also, don't overlook him being there will trigger HIM and his feelings towards his AP. That will slow R. Any contact even visual should be avoided. He might think he can handle it and just avoid her or bury any emotions he has for her. He can't.
> 
> ...


I installed a gps and voice recorder in my car. I then. Contacted the AP and a co-worker to out him. 

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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> He became a bartender and started receiving a lot of attention from a lot of people. It started to feed his ego and the outside attention became more enticing than the duties of family life. I only started emotionally disconnecting from him when I felt him start to pull back from me.


Relationships with bartenders are especially challenging given how many attractive people they meet everyday who may flirt with them. It's the attention that gives them that high.


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

I am coming to my own conclusions that I most likely will wind up leaving, but I wanted to give him the chance to prove himself and put in the effort. I wanted to attempt MC before I just walk away. If I can't get passed it then I will move on at that point.

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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> I have another post explaining the downward slope we started taking, but the pregnancy was planned and initiated on his part. I have no problem communicating my feelings to him, but he is a stone and won't tell me anything he feels. To be completely honest I felt our relationship was strong and we were good. I thought he had exactly what he wanted b/c that's what he'd tell me.


This is where it becomes a really delicate subject. We have to realize that our partners can choose to not speak, just because they expect some kind of resistance. It could be purely internal, even. A lot of individuals promote the righteous or angry approach to get their partner to do something or change. It could even be more subtle than that. Either way, the informant is often left feeling that it was a punishment, for having divulged some truthful information. Most of the time, right and wrong need to be thrown out of the window.




> So yes there is a severe lack of communication on his part. But, there was so much more than cheating going on. He was living a completely different life. He had a whole set of friends and a whole different personality. It's like he threw in the towel on his real life and became a real low life.


The problem is more obvious now. Pregnancy and child-rearing need to be a paired adventure. I am now aware of the disconnection that took place, but not sure why he went off on his own (without you).



> I know the analysis is to figure out what was going on at home, but I think he just got bored and liked the attention. Home was great. I looked forward to him coming home everyday. I had his dinner ready and the house clean, I'd iron his clothes in the morning for work. I potty trained my 2yo w/o his help, homeschooled my 11yo w/o his help, and nursed my newborn and woke up in the middle of the night 100% of the time as well as 100% of the diaper duty. I did and do it all.


Kudos to you. I am honestly not sure how women can do it by themselves. I helped my love out as much as I possibly could, and it was still an absurd challenge for both of us.

Part of it is that he took/takes you for granted. The other piece is likely along the lines of wanting to maintain his youthful identity. Along with that, there might have been a fair bit of attention diverted away from him, due to wrestling with a newborn. Boredom is surely a part of it.



> I am trying to figure out where I went wrong so I can acknowledge my part in our relationship issues, but even when I ask he says it had nothing to do with me.


Ahh, passivity.



> He keeps telling me I'm perfect. Which honestly I don't want to hear. He tells me he wants me to be affectionate with him now and to just love him and be there for him, but I don't feel he has the right to ask me that.


For fear of misunderstanding you, can you elaborate?




> I was holding back some info at the risk of not wanting all the advice I received to immediately be "leave him" but for the sake of full disclosure I'll share. Obviously, we both know he needs a lot of help.


That is something that I can't do.



> He has a substance abuse problem that I always thought was recreational until all this happened. He smokes marijuana and now it's legal in the state I live in. But, he told me things started with the AP b/c him and his co-workers would go to the bar after work and the OW was always there. She started flirting with him and he started flirting back. They started getting high together and things progressed from there.


Again, those separate lives.



> I've never minded him smoking privately and occasionally before so it's not like he had to hide it from me.


Telling you the full truth would involve admitting he was having bad intentions and urges. Unfortunately, he didn't fight them and let anyone in to stop him.



I feel it is very obvious, at this point, that no one can just give you guidance on how to move on after cheating, etc. Cheating is a symptom of the problem. You could say that cheating creates more symptoms, but that is beside my point.

He hasn't talked, which means the problem will not resolve itself. Even if he never cheated again, there is the root of the problem (the disconnection) that is still in place. Getting to that point will require an incredible amount of inner-strength.... from you. Most likely, you are going to have to walk him to the point where things can recover. You can do it with compassion. Alternatively, he *might* find his catalyst if you were leaving him. What we want to avoid is "moving on" by sweeping things under the rug. I don't wish that on you or him.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

When you get the time,this is a very good thread to read. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html Though it was started by B1 about him and his wife EI, a lot of wayward and betrayed spouses ended up using this thread to get support,find answers,pose questions etc. in regards to reconciliation.


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> This is where it becomes a really delicate subject. We have to realize that our partners can choose to not speak, just because they expect some kind of resistance. It could be purely internal, even. A lot of individuals promote the righteous or angry approach to get their partner to do something or change. It could even be more subtle than that. Either way, the informant is often left feeling that it was a punishment, for having divulged some truthful information. Most of the time, right and wrong need to be thrown out of the window.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To elaborate. He wants me to show him affection, to rub his back when he comes home, to make food if he's hungry, to hug him and have sex with him. He says I don't love him. I feel like He's manipulating me. He's not affectionate with me at all and he never has been. I accepted that about him and just thought that's how he was. It used to bother me in the beginning and then I just got used to it I figured he just wasn't a mushy kinda guy. 


I know he takes me for granted. I need that to change. I know he was trying to reignite his youth and I pointed that out to him. He didn't change at all. He just reverted back to the guy he was before I met him. The OW is 22 so 10 years younger than him. She was a softball player. He played football in HS and suddenly started talking about it a lot (he went out and bought our older daughter a glove and softballs and took her to the park to toss the ball) he would say how no one believes him when he tells them his real age. For as long as I've known him he's never cared about his appearance or clothing. Now he does. I didn't realize that was even a red flag b/c I was happy he was taking care of himself b/c I always felt he should. 

His dad cheated on his mom many times during the course of thier 30 year relationship which resulted in 4 other children outside their marriage. He cheated on his girlfriend before me, but that ate him alive b/c he never wanted to be like his dad in that way, yet he has so much respect for his dad which I never understood. I thought he learned his lesson early in life and knew who he wanted to be. Also b/c that's what he told me.

I refuse to sweep this anywhere. I want full disclosure, but even with MC I don't know that I'll ever get it. 

He's agreed to get another job, but wants me to fill out the applications for him while he's at work. I refuse to do that.

The more I type this all out the more I question myself as to why I'm trying to work things out. 

That's why I wanted to know how he should be behaving at this point. He says he's willing to go to counciling, that he understands he hurt me, and he's not trying to avoid the topic, that I can ask him anything, but when I do he doesn't answer and says he doesn't want to go down that road. I just want the truth. He says he's being honest now, but he doesn't answer my questions about the things he's actually done. He's very disconnected all he does is go to work, come home, eat and fall asleep. If he's awake he wants to watch a movie. So I am unable to talk to him. If I try and engage in any conversation at all. He looks at the tv the whole time. He hardly responds to anything I say. The second the lights go out he wants sex.

What do I do to convince him that it's ok to open up and talk to me. That even if I get angry it's ok b/c I'm still here. That no matter how angry I could possibly get I am willing to here the truth and work through it? But by continuing to withhold info I refuse to stay and he is pushing me further away. B/c I have expressed this to him and still nothing. But when I tell him I'm done and he needs to go he begs me not to give up on him that this is where he wants to be and he loves me. 

Wow, this was really all over the place, but my thoughts are pretty much all over the place.

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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

TBT said:


> When you get the time,this is a very good thread to read. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html Though it was started by B1 about him and his wife EI, a lot of wayward and betrayed spouses ended up using this thread to get support,find answers,pose questions etc. in regards to reconciliation.


Thank you. I'm hoping to share this with him.

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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
At your request I will post in further detail about why people cheat. Other posters have indicated unmet needs, to fulfill a fantasy, low self esteem, a feeling of entitlement and so on. My point is that all of these stem from lack of sufficient intellect. Consider why you have not cheated, what prevents you from committing infedelity? There are probably multiple reasons that come to mind such as how it would make your H feel, how you would be breaking your solemn vow, the repercussions of everybody finding out and a host of others.

But now consider what would happen if those thoughts were not there. Consider what could happen if the only data you were processing was centered around you. This person makes me feel good, they think I'm hot, I like sex it feels good, I want to feel good. Never a thought of what it would do to their spouse, their family, no one considered but them. Now do you think you could cheat?

The question now becomes do you want to put forth the effort to keep your H on the fidelity path? Some have said he must quit his job, why? Why would you make someone quit their job? Answer, because he will not. Who should know better than he the damage his job and the corresponding exposure to "barflies" has cost him? Yet the posters here say he must quit his job, they see it, why does he not? Others will say you must set boundaries. Why would someone need to set boundaries for an adult? Answer, they should not need to but because his mind is not fully developed he thinks more with the mind of person much younger.

This is the reality you must face and the road ahead will not be easy, it will take significant effort your part and even then it may not be enough. People of this level of mental development are unpredictable. The reason being that you are predicting with your intellect and not theirs and it is impossible to know which part of the data is not being processed correctly in their mind.

Also, people lacking in cognitive function do not process regret, remorse and sorrow as you perceive it. They simply haven't the ability. So to expect deep gut wrenching remorse and a broken contrite spirit is also unrealistic. You may get some I'm sorrys and some I'll never do it agains but their own heart wrenching remorse is simply not possible for the most part.

So then, these are the factors you must consider when deciding whether or not to reconcile. I cannot say with certainty but I would place the odds of successful long term reconciliation to be quite low. So unless you are willing to accept more of the same and to constantly be questioning his behavior I would think very carefully about the path forward.

One poster mentioned a tendency to discount posts from people claiming to know why people cheat but I would advise that you search for truth in all the responses you receive and glean what you can from them discarding any that you do not feel serve your interests.

Their are exceptions to this rule but they are scarce indeed, a very small percentage of cheaters. However, unless you see deep contrition and intense remorse then, regrettably, you are not in that very small number of betrayed spouses fortunate enough to have a reasonable chance at reconciliation.

I wish you good fortune in your endeavors.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> He wants me to show him affection, to rub his back when he comes home, to make food if he's hungry, to hug him and have sex with him. He says I don't love him. I feel like He's manipulating me. He's not affectionate with me at all and he never has been. I accepted that about him and just thought that's how he was. It used to bother me in the beginning and then I just got used to it I figured he just wasn't a mushy kinda guy.


He's manipulative. He takes way more than he gives. He's selfish to the core. He wants a housemaid, a cook, a sex slave, and a mother, but not a wife. He does not respect you at all. By you getting used to his selfish behaviors, you sent him the message that you're his doormat that he can manipulate and take advantage of whenever he wants.



> He cheated on his girlfriend before me, but that ate him alive b/c he never wanted to be like his dad in that way, yet he has so much respect for his dad which I never understood. I thought he learned his lesson early in life and knew who he wanted to be. Also b/c that's what he told me.


Oh, so he's a serial cheater like his dad? And you had children with him? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it?



> He's agreed to get another job, but wants me to fill out the applications for him while he's at work. I refuse to do that.


 Set your boundary and enforce it or he'll continue to walk all over you. His words and promises mean absolutely nothing. Go read Chumplady and you will find many betrayed wives who heard all the promises in the world from their husbands, but no follow through.



> He says he's willing to go to counciling, that he understands he hurt me, and he's not trying to avoid the topic, that I can ask him anything, but when I do he doesn't answer and says he doesn't want to go down that road.


Huge sign that he's not remorseful at all. Just empty words and no actions.



> But by continuing to withhold info I refuse to stay and he is pushing me further away. B/c I have expressed this to him and still nothing. But when I tell him I'm done and he needs to go he begs me not to give up on him that this is where he wants to be and he loves me.


He wants you to support and take care of him while he lives the life of a carefree teenager. He's not a man, and never will be. He's a boy trapped in a man's body.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> To elaborate. He wants me to show him affection, to rub his back when he comes home, to make food if he's hungry, to hug him and have sex with him. He says I don't love him. I feel like He's manipulating me.


That is manipulation.



> He's not affectionate with me at all and he never has been. I accepted that about him and just thought that's how he was. It used to bother me in the beginning and then I just got used to it I figured he just wasn't a mushy kinda guy.


Even if it isn't in his nature, every woman needs some kind of affection. That said, part of this is on you, as you came to terms with it.



> I know he takes me for granted. I need that to change. I know he was trying to reignite his youth and I pointed that out to him. He didn't change at all. He just reverted back to the guy he was before I met him.


It must come from him. He has to genuinely desire to be good to you. The risk is if you move on, and the relationship is back to the same problem that precipitated the cheating.



> The OW is 22 so 10 years younger than him. She was a softball player. He played football in HS and suddenly started talking about it a lot (he went out and bought our older daughter a glove and softballs and took her to the park to toss the ball) he would say how no one believes him when he tells them his real age. For as long as I've known him he's never cared about his appearance or clothing. Now he does. I didn't realize that was even a red flag b/c I was happy he was taking care of himself b/c I always felt he should.


We need to be interested in our appearance... for ourselves. You see this more with cheating women, where they all of a sudden start dressing much nicer and have ramped-up sex drives. Same logic.


> His dad cheated on his mom many times during the course of thier 30 year relationship which resulted in 4 other children outside their marriage. He cheated on his girlfriend before me, but that ate him alive b/c he never wanted to be like his dad in that way, yet he has so much respect for his dad which I never understood. I thought he learned his lesson early in life and knew who he wanted to be. Also b/c that's what he told me.


It seems to make sense, but the problem is that life is a continuous lesson. In fact, we go through tremendous changes that require new contextual learning. Many make commitments to never cheat, but don't realize the emotional impulses that might pull them towards individuals outside of the committed relationship. 



> I refuse to sweep this anywhere. I want full disclosure, but even with MC I don't know that I'll ever get it.


You are very smart. MC can turn into a blame game, where the counselor just becomes referree. This is the norm, unfortunately. Again, to get there, it will require you to have a lot of strength and patience. Or, you have to actually be at the point of giving up. It is awful, but he has no catalyst in front of him.


> He's agreed to get another job, but wants me to fill out the applications for him while he's at work. I refuse to do that.


Again, he is showing a lack of genuine effort. If he doesn't want to do it on his own, it isn't worth it. It is good that you took the right course of action.


> The more I type this all out the more I question myself as to why I'm trying to work things out.


Right. This is you trying to fix you and fix him. I challenge the conventional notion of fairness, but to have what we call a relationship.... he has to be invested. He has to walk with you, on this path of romantic life. Is he taking your hand.



> That's why I wanted to know how he should be behaving at this point. He says he's willing to go to counciling, that he understands he hurt me, and he's not trying to avoid the topic


What are his actions? He is avoiding the topic.



> , that I can ask him anything, but when I do he doesn't answer and says he doesn't want to go down that road. I just want the truth. He says he's being honest now, but he doesn't answer my questions about the things he's actually done. He's very disconnected all he does is go to work, come home, eat and fall asleep. If he's awake he wants to watch a movie. So I am unable to talk to him. If I try and engage in any conversation at all. He looks at the tv the whole time. He hardly responds to anything I say. The second the lights go out he wants sex.


I advise a very controversial position, in regards to sex. It needs to happen when the man and woman both want it. Partners need to focus on romance, whether or not intercourse follows. 

You indicated a desire to be with him, a lot, but is it deep sexual desire, a desire from you to connect to him... somehow, or just a gift of vaginal masturbation to him?




> What do I do to convince him that it's ok to open up and talk to me. That even if I get angry it's ok b/c I'm still here.


This is why relationships are so delicate. You can't.

All you can do is *show* him that there will be no punishment. Even if you get sad by his words, that might impose a punishment on him. It doesn't even have to be in your intentions to do so.


> That no matter how angry I could possibly get I am willing to here the truth and work through it?


Individuals fear the negative emotional reaction. Problems don't get resolved with very upset partners.



> But by continuing to withhold info I refuse to stay and he is pushing me further away. B/c I have expressed this to him and still nothing. But when I tell him I'm done and he needs to go he begs me not to give up on him that this is where he wants to be and he loves me.


Desperation is fake. Otherwise, he'd act like that all the time. Your actions have to match your words. If you are indicating (by word of mouth) that you are done, then your feet have to follow. I don't advise the ultimatum, etiher.



> Wow, this was really all over the place, but my thoughts are pretty much all over the place.


They are not all over the place. It is much needed information.

In regards to your main question....

It will take you some significant training to learn how to compassionately bring him to the table. There is a deep divide and he is very lost. Either way, use that big brain of yours and continue to resist obvious manipulation. Relationships don't run on manipulation, they collapse on it.


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> That is manipulation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was trying to figure out if I failed to comply with his needs then maybe he would have no reason to try and work through his issues b/c he would feel as though I checked out so why should he try. But, I don't want to be manipulated into giving him what he wants while I wind up feeling used. 

He knows he's lost b/c he has told me that before and he has a deep seeded need to be liked and accepted by the outside world even at his own expense and that of his family. He would give a stranger the shirt off his back even if he didn't have one to wear tomorrow.

I do have a deep desire to be with him. I always have, in every way. I thought we'd be together forever, you know like the two little old people in rocking chairs...
I've never lost interest in him physically, emotionally, sexually. There was a long time in the beginning of our relationship I felt rejected by him and was actually going to move on and move away. He decided he did want to commit to our relationship and we moved forward in life together. 

Now all those feelings of being rejected by him in the beginning came flooding back. I truly feel like he never wanted me.

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I also question why you want to save the marriage.

You cannot do the lifting for him, which is exactly what he is getting you to do.

He IS manipulating you.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> I was trying to figure out if I failed to comply with his needs then maybe he would have no reason to try and work through his issues b/c he would feel as though I checked out so why should he try. But, I don't want to be manipulated into giving him what he wants while I wind up feeling used.


You tell me. Think of everything you know about men. Is there anything you didn't do or offer that men need?


> He knows he's lost b/c he has told me that before and he has a deep seeded need to be liked and accepted by the outside world even at his own expense and that of his family. He would give a stranger the shirt off his back even if he didn't have one to wear tomorrow.


A lot of sociologists put forth this logic. They think that the individual is not reliable enough to believe in self-affirmations, which are necessary to stave off negativity and proffer happiness. So, they put forth that it is easier to get affirmations from others.

This is the result. You are left with an individual that is incapable of self-love and goes to where the affirmations are coming from. This is the true problem, not desperation or lack of xyz needs of his. He needs to be a whole person.



> I do have a deep desire to be with him. I always have, in every way. I thought we'd be together forever, you know like the two little old people in rocking chairs...
> I've never lost interest in him physically, emotionally, sexually. There was a long time in the beginning of our relationship I felt rejected by him and was actually going to move on and move away. He decided he did want to commit to our relationship and we moved forward in life together.


There are our desires, following our rational self-interests, and then there is reality.




> Now all those feelings of being rejected by him in the beginning came flooding back. I truly feel like he never wanted me.


As hard as it sounds, we have to let the past stay in the past. We have to look at the present moment and absolutely master it. Even if he was currently perfect, you could summon pain from those painful memories of old. But, if the relationship was perfect, you would naturally have no problem letting the past stay in the past. This means that when you are upset, you have to be a little forceful with putting the memories in their place. If we do this, we can have a much better chance of reconnecting.

What are the problems of this present moment? What feels wrong about the relationship *today*?


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> What are the problems of this present moment? What feels wrong about the relationship *today*?


My inability to believe anything he says, and his lack of total transparency at this point. I feel like time isn't moving fast enough. 

Yes, we both agree he needs to get another job, but that's not so easy. He makes really good money where he's at and his job didn't make him cheat, he made that choice. He still tells me he wants to leave so we'll see in the next coming weeks if he does. He says the OW no longer works there, but I don't know if that is true. He says he's had no contact with her, but I don't know if that's true.

I figured MC will help us work through these issues, but we're having a hard time finding one and he gets 1 day off a week, so our time is spread thin. Which I feel he needs to make more time for me and I feel he's not.

I think it all comes down to his job. He's only supposed to work in the morning to be home by 6pm., but they will schedule him for later shifts or ask him to stay b/c they're short handed. 

I need to see him actively making the effort. I need him to realize that he is no longer entitled to privacy until he has proved to me that he can be trusted.

I need to stop exploding on him every time I go to that dark place in my mind.

I need to still care and want to salvage this b/c I'm starting to want to walk away.

I know in his way he thinks he's trying and trying to prove himself, but it's not enough.

I'm starting to feel bad for him. Is that normal? To pity someone who hurt you so bad?

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> He says the OW no longer works there, but I don't know if that is true.


If you know the other woman's name call and ask to speak with her. If she answers they you know he is lying and that is a pretty good gauge if he is in true R or not.


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## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> If you know the other woman's name call and ask to speak with her. If she answers they you know he is lying and that is a pretty good gauge if he is in true R or not.


That wouldn't work b/c they are not allowed to receive personal calls at work, and she may not be schedule to work on the day I happen to call or show up anyway. 

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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> My inability to believe anything he says, and his lack of total transparency at this point. I feel like time isn't moving fast enough.


Your inability to believe him, stems from the past. Interesting point.




> Yes, we both agree he needs to get another job, but that's not so easy. He makes really good money where he's at and his job didn't make him cheat, he made that choice. He still tells me he wants to leave so we'll see in the next coming weeks if he does. He says the OW no longer works there, but I don't know if that is true. He says he's had no contact with her, but I don't know if that's true.


The strongest affair victim advice is to let the cheater bring themselves to the table, or not. If he does not come to the table, then it is obvious that it is a 1-sided relationship. You either accept that, or walk.


> I figured MC will help us work through these issues, but we're having a hard time finding one and he gets 1 day off a week, so our time is spread thin. Which I feel he needs to make more time for me and I feel he's not.


Are you preparing for how to interact with the counselor, as well? How do you bring up concerns of yours, without him becoming defensive, essentially shutting down the process?



> I need to see him actively making the effort. I need him to realize that he is no longer entitled to privacy until he has proved to me that he can be trusted.


What are his thoughts on this?



> I need to stop exploding on him every time I go to that dark place in my mind.


What is your action plan to meet this goal of yours?



> I need to still care and want to salvage this b/c I'm starting to want to walk away.


What are the things that stop you from walking?



> I know in his way he thinks he's trying and trying to prove himself, but it's not enough.


Of course he thinks he's trying. However, his actions speak for themselves. He is weak. His actions and thought-processes are awfully obvious. With this understanding, you can get him to where you want him to be.



> I'm starting to feel bad for him. Is that normal? To pity someone who hurt you so bad?


It depends on the person. There are a lot of reasons this is so. He is playing the victim card to full advantage, which places a lot of pressure on you (empathy>sympathy). You are strong and care, which explains this, also. Additionally, you realize that you can't steamroll him for what he's done, otherwise, there will be no romantic partner left, to pick up the pieces.

The situation you are in, is odd. You are the strong one, but he is trying to get you to be the criminal and relationship expert, all at the same time. That is like a shooting victim having to mend their own wounds, ensure leniency to the shooter, minimize collateral damage, and do the community outreach, to ease tensions.

He has to come to the table. How to get to that point will test you.


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## veganmermaid (Jun 17, 2016)

Total transparency is the most basic building block of R. Have you read about the 180? Or the stickied post for newbies here?

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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> At your request I will post in further detail about why people cheat. Other posters have indicated unmet needs, to fulfill a fantasy, low self esteem, a feeling of entitlement and so on. My point is that all of these stem from lack of sufficient intellect.
> 
> People of this level of mental development are unpredictable. The reason being that you are predicting with your intellect and not theirs and it is impossible to know which part of the data is not being processed correctly in their mind.
> ...




A very powerfull perception. 

A person can absolutely possess the intellect to avoid infidelity. But the general lack of intellect needed to cheat can be easily created by an outside source, rendering the most intellect... to fall victim.


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