# EA's? The why's, what's, when's and how's



## empty3 (Mar 12, 2013)

I've done so much reading on affairs (both EA and PA) and the why's, how's, when's, who's etc that my eyes are now popping out.

Some questions have been answered. Some understanding (actually alot of understanding) as to *why* it happened and the whole process of *what* happened. I've managed to put it into some theoretical perspective as at this moment in time I need it to make sense and not dwell on it too much..

Yeh right.. fat chance of that.. It's always on my mind and as I try hard to try and put my marriage back on track, I also simultaneously have these pangs of "how could all that intensity in the EA have meant nothing?", "How could it all just now be gone?", "did it not mean anything?"

I look back and wonder was I a cake-eater or not? I think I went between being one and not.

For those of you who have been in similar situations how did you manage? I know that four letter swear word (TIME) will be mentioned alot and I'm sure it's true but I'm still quite fixated on the AP. I've managed NC for 8 weeks and my self-respect will not allow me to make contact (ended with a d-day and me basically being told to eff off) but my thoughts are always drifting and taking me back to moments that we shared.. good and bad..

Thoughts?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I've never been in an EA or PA -but found this thread to be highly valuable in carefully explaining
"*the FOG*" /hormones that take over the emotions in these things....


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

There is the absolute possibility of a plethora of reasons for such~ but more notably in my mind's eye is the jaded perception by one spouse to equivocate on *"that their emotional, financial, or sexual needs were not being met," "that they were mistaken to find out that didn't marry the right one," "that their feelings for the other person rapidly changed," "that there was some other romantic interest that they wanted in life who was largely inaccessible at a prior, more opportune point in life, and that that person is now suddenly accessible." And the list could just go on and on into infinity.*

That being said, this would be the impetus for most "waywards" to start their EA process, that in my opinion, is where the marriage itself, nowadays, is ultimately lost, regardless of the fact that it 
later became a physical relationship as well!

After all and with rare exception, the physical affair only serves to accenuate the emotional one that is already a work in progress!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

IMO, emotional affairs occur quite often because people believe that men and women can be friends just as much as same sex friendships.

At some point with al the sexual tension and at least from one side, a predatory aspect (more about this later), a married person can find him/herself in an EA.

What I mean by predatory here is that some people get off on being able to create close relationships and then milk them. For example, I've had problems with women who want a direct relationship with my husband (when I had one) and most recently with my fiance. I'm pretty sure at least one of my ex femla friends would have liked to have dated my husband. I can think of 2 women whom I befriended, both of them management consultants like my exH, and I think they wanted to their professional networking during their freetime. I was too much of a peon for them. 

I think there are few women who get off on feeling that they have a closer relationship to a man than his wife does. I was reading on another message board where a female poster said that her male friends treat her better than they do their with their wives. Yes, right, getting a free meal out of guy who is more meaningful that sharing your whole life (at least most of it) with another person.

Affairs of any sort do weird things. Sometimes the WP thinks that they need to protect the AP from their spouse. Oh dear.... when they should be thinking the other way around.

Suffice to say then, poor boundaries encourage EAs. And the more predatory partners feel free to accuse the other "you led me on."


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

empty3 said:


> It's always on my mind and as I try hard to try and put my marriage back on track, I also simultaneously have these pangs of "how could all that intensity in the EA have meant nothing?", "How could it all just now be gone?", "did it not mean anything?"


Maybe my situation is different, but since part of my dysfunction is seeking intensity for the sake of intensity, intensity on its own doesn't make something special, authentic, or worthwhile. Intensity is also separate from strong, lasting feelings. I was able to generate intensity with anyone who fit with a particular set of issues. So I don't think that intensity automatically makes something worthwhile or meaningful. It disappears just as quickly as it can be drummed up. 



> For those of you who have been in similar situations how did you manage? I know that four letter swear word (TIME) will be mentioned alot and I'm sure it's true but I'm still quite fixated on the AP. I've managed NC for 8 weeks and my self-respect will not allow me to make contact (ended with a d-day and me basically being told to eff off) but my thoughts are always drifting and taking me back to moments that we shared.. good and bad..
> 
> Thoughts?


You know, I think I had convinced myself that I couldn't let go of this stuff and I struggled with it for a long time for various dysfunctional reasons, but now, it's all gone. It disappeared. I found myself pitching every single gift and note from the OWs into the trash of my own volition. It was just like, "Why didn't I do this before? Why did I think I needed to hold onto this crap, either emotionally or through these mementos? WTH has been wrong with me?" The only thoughts I have about the people I had EAs with are regretting that I got involved at all or aggravation and anger at myself for everything. I have no trouble with NC, missing, or dwelling anymore. I just wish I hadn't wasted so much time and energy on these people that should have gone into repairing my relationship with my GF.

Just remember, don't put too much weight on your current thoughts/dwelling. You'll probably deeply regret it if you keep holding on to the AP as a life preserver. Don't forget what's at stake, or who your REAL focus should be: your spouse. Ultimately, even though you have "good memories" about the AP, they're also untethered from reality and not in the context of an actual full LTR or marriage with its attendant responsibilities and stresses. The AP hasn't been there with you all those years. The AP doesn't have an everyday life with its everyday frustrations and chores with you, nor children with you. The AP exists in a fluff bubble. To compare your spouse and AP is unfair because the contexts and situations are totally different. Anyway, the AP doesn't ultimately matter. Since you've chosen your marriage, you need to purge the AP (all associated attachment as well) ASAP or you might lose your spouse. Even if you do what you're supposed to, a positive outcome is far from assured. But you still seem to be, er, "foggy". I'm not sure how you can snap out of that except by acquainting yourself with the fear that you could lose your spouse. I mean, really try to imagine it and feel what that would be like.

With regard to your original post about your situation, we definitely seem to have some things in common. My GF has often been emotionally unavailable and distant, and does not express affection very well. She does not know how to be reassuring and comforting and is not comfortable with such things. (I grew up in a family that was much the same way.) She gets frustrated that I'm "always" wanting to talk about "issues". Instead of working on these and other problems, I went the EA route, as did you. What we REALLY needed to do was to address these problems directly until we reached them and worked on reconnecting and developing emotional intimacy (maybe with IC and MC thrown into the mix). I know it can be hard to get through; I tried to talk to GF about it many times during our relationship, to no avail. (She tried to talk to me about things she needed from me, too, but I wasn't listening anymore. Partially because I thought she was being overreactive, and partially because I already felt marginalized and uncared for. Childish, I know, but I'm somewhat emotionally immature. Another thing I'm working on.) 

But you and I still chose the wrong thing in the end, and we're fortunate that they're still talking to us at all. What about MC?


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## empty3 (Mar 12, 2013)

Thank-you for your posts.

I have been doing some reading on the infidelity boards.

I'm feeling very raw at the moment.. finding my way out of the fog. It's all so complicated. Need time to process things in my head. 

Plan is to take some time focussing on daily life for now. 

Thanks again.


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## empty3 (Mar 12, 2013)

SoulP; I just read your post. I feel sad cos somewhere in my head there is a massive disconnect to what is happening. I'm a logical and rational thinker. In fact that's how my EA lasted as long as it did, I rationalised each and every aspect of it and "convinced" myself it was ok as I wasnt really hurting anyone in the sense that I was still fulfilling my duties as a mother and home-maker etc. in fact if anything my EA made things BETTER at home. My H and I argued much less, we functioned much better, I was less clingy and needy, I was happy when he got home from work (as I was fulfilled) so on a day to day level we functioned and we functioned well.

This led me to think I could handle it all. The cake-eater personified. That is until I started to do the same to AP. Anyway to cut a long story short I only took myself with me. In the sense that my usual behaviours reared their ugly heads. This is not what he had signed up for obviously. It put a strain on the "relationship" and came to a grinding halt.

I have come to terms with the fact that he had defined our EA very differently. All the signs were there that he had NO INTENTION of anything long term with me, all throughout I was split, many times thinking that I would do what it takes to see it through to I would never jeprodise my kids for anything. I was perpetually confused and conflicted. But one thing I can say with conviction, fog or no fog, it was the most real thing I have ever experienced. I like you thrive on intensity and so did he. We were feeding eachothers need for intensity and it worked.

I agree, we sound similar in our way of dealing with what we may perceive as "rejection". I'm also emotionally immature and know I need to become more robust with the way I tolerate uncomfortable emotions. I tend to spill out and have very bad timing. Can't seem to hold on to any ill-feeling. I'm working on it.

SoulP, I'm nervous that I'm still holding on to what I think was the most incredible bond I've ever experienced. Some will say fog, I am thinking reasons, seasons, lifetime (don't know if you know the poem). You seem to have completely disregarded anything you may have felt for the OW you were involved with. Is it possible to have a special place in your heart for this person that once knew you so intimately? Am I overly romanticing this?? I have done what it takes to cut off completely. There has been absolutely no contact of any nature. I wouldn't even know if he's alive or dead (dramatic I know but it's true!) We have no friends in common, live in different countries etc. 

I am trying so hard with my H. Finding it so difficult. You said something that I can not relate to; "I'm not sure how you can snap out of that except by acquainting yourself with the fear that you could lose your spouse. I mean, really try to imagine it and feel what that would be like". I'm struggling with this.

btw, don't know if this is relevant or not but my husband is an extreme rugsweeper. Even since my revelation and him asking me for details and me not disclosing them, he is acting as if nothing has happened. He is travelling for work right now but we are in constant contact. He's not brought it up once. It's weird..


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

empty3 said:


> SoulP; I just read your post. I feel sad cos somewhere in my head there is a massive disconnect to what is happening. I'm a logical and rational thinker. In fact that's how my EA lasted as long as it did, I rationalised each and every aspect of it and "convinced" myself it was ok as I wasnt really hurting anyone in the sense that I was still fulfilling my duties as a mother and home-maker etc. in fact if anything my EA made things BETTER at home. My H and I argued much less, we functioned much better, I was less clingy and needy, I was happy when he got home from work (as I was fulfilled) so on a day to day level we functioned and we functioned well.


I did something similar. I separated them and compartmentalized everything, but in reality, by doing so, I wasn't committed anywhere, even though I felt I was committed to my GF. It's obvious now that she was getting the short end of the stick because of my shortcomings. I don't know about your husband, but I know my GF could feel me emotionally coming and going, and she found it very upsetting. My EAs allowed me to distract myself and run away from the things I couldn't cope with, but they also took me away from what really mattered to me and made things with my GF worse, not better. (So we're different there.)



> This led me to think I could handle it all. The cake-eater personified. That is until I started to do the same to AP. Anyway to cut a long story short I only took myself with me. In the sense that my usual behaviours reared their ugly heads. This is not what he had signed up for obviously. It put a strain on the "relationship" and came to a grinding halt.


Right, the APs are only there for the light stuff (or to pick and choose), not for the whole shebang.



> But one thing I can say with conviction, fog or no fog, it was the most real thing I have ever experienced. I like you thrive on intensity and so did he. We were feeding eachothers need for intensity and it worked.


That type of intensity is almost like a vivid dream. Things seen in the dream might seem very real and detailed, but it's still just a dream. I find that intensity in authentic relationships is...more earthbound. More grounded. For me, the times I spent with my GF were more real. The situation with the EAs (for myself and maybe you) is more like an addiction, a drug trip. It's unhealthy and it's not going to sustain you. It's an artificial high that's going to leave you miserable. But while you're high, you're convinced jumping off the building will be fine because gravity is of no consequence...LOL. Reality and perception are altered.



> I agree, we sound similar in our way of dealing with what we may perceive as "rejection". I'm also emotionally immature and know I need to become more robust with the way I tolerate uncomfortable emotions. I tend to spill out and have very bad timing. Can't seem to hold on to any ill-feeling. I'm working on it.


I know those things are big problems for me and have caused issues in relationships my entire life, so if you have the same issue, IC might help. (Do you have impulse control issues?)



> SoulP, I'm nervous that I'm still holding on to what I think was the most incredible bond I've ever experienced. Some will say fog, I am thinking reasons, seasons, lifetime (don't know if you know the poem).


But the AP cut out on you, yes? So maybe he was a "reason". You know, one of my OWs was an ex; the first person I'd ever really felt intensely for. I built layer upon layer of romanticism around her. How we had this special bond that would never be broken (even though it was), blah, blah. But you know what? It was for me, not for her. It wasn't about her at all. It was about me and my issues. That person wasn't worth holding onto, and it wasn't even real. Could be the same in your situation, though it feels real right now.

What does the OW have over your husband? Realistically? Try looking closely at it without the idealization on full blast and see if you come up with anything different. I mean, you married the man who is your husband for various reasons. Those things didn't disappear, right? 



> You seem to have completely disregarded anything you may have felt for the OW you were involved with.


Oh, believe me, I had a very hard time with it in the past. It's only when I really looked at what I wanted in/for my life, and really looked at myself and what I'd been doing to my GF, that I completely snapped out of it. 



> Is it possible to have a special place in your heart for this person that once knew you so intimately?


Commonly known as not letting go/holding onto the past. No. I wouldn't recommend it. That's what I did with my ex, and it caused all kinds of trouble. Because you can't keep both your spouse and another person in your heart. It's unfair to him, and it takes you away from him. He didn't sign up for 85% of you. He signed up for 100%. I'm sorry, but you've got to completely empty this person out of your life.



> Am I overly romanticing this?? I have done what it takes to cut off completely. There has been absolutely no contact of any nature. I wouldn't even know if he's alive or dead (dramatic I know but it's true!) We have no friends in common, live in different countries etc.


YES. Believe me. If romanticizing things comes easily to you (as it does to me), you can start seeing rainbows and flowers where there is only barren ground, and you can even convince OTHER people that they're there, too. It's good that you're still NC. Definitely keep it that way. Also good that there aren't any common friends, areas, etc. 



> I am trying so hard with my H. Finding it so difficult. You said something that I can not relate to; "I'm not sure how you can snap out of that except by acquainting yourself with the fear that you could lose your spouse. I mean, really try to imagine it and feel what that would be like". I'm struggling with this.


It could be that you don't think he'll really leave you. Or maybe you have trouble really imagining it realistically? (I did.) 

It could be you don't love him anymore, or your heart isn't really in staying or working on things? You might have to do quite a lot of soul-searching to find out what you really want. If you have trouble "hearing" yourself, if I were you, I would hole up somewhere for as much quiet time as you could get, and just sit there and think about the situation from all angles without any distractions. Or go and talk to a therapist about it, see if you want to salvage things or how to begin if so. You still sound very conflicted, so it could be a matter of still being too in the fog, or maybe you really are just done. 



> btw, don't know if this is relevant or not but my husband is an extreme rugsweeper. Even since my revelation and him asking me for details and me not disclosing them, he is acting as if nothing has happened. He is travelling for work right now but we are in constant contact. He's not brought it up once. It's weird..


Definitely relevant. It will be more difficult because of that, but you need to talk to him and tell him about it. Tell him however much he wants to know. (I think you need to find out if you want to stay and work on the marriage or not so that you can tell him that, too.) Just because they rugsweep doesn't mean it's not eating them alive. (My GF tends to be avoidant about certain things and will rugsweep. But rather than that being a sign of her being okay, it just means that she's hiding the hurt and dwelling on it. Could be the same with your husband.)


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## empty3 (Mar 12, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> I did something similar. I separated them and compartmentalized everything, but in reality, by doing so, I wasn't committed anywhere, even though I felt I was committed to my GF. It's obvious now that she was getting the short end of the stick because of my shortcomings. I don't know about your husband, but I know my GF could feel me emotionally coming and going, and she found it very upsetting. My EAs allowed me to distract myself and run away from the things I couldn't cope with, but they also took me away from what really mattered to me and made things with my GF worse, not better. (So we're different there.)
> 
> *Thanks for your post. Made me very tearful. Things are very raw right now and I'm desparately trying to get my head around what is going on. Either I'm clinically depressed or it's still early days of my detachment from my AP. When I say things were BETTER what I mean was there were not as many arguments, not as many "confrontations" about why he doesnt emotionally open up to me. I was able to "function" without there being any daily build up of resentment. I was "happy" getting my daily fill from AP and so I didn't put as much pressure on my H to provide me with any fulfilment. As you say, I escaped having to deal with my marriage and put it on a backburner. I know now and knew then my EA was pure escapism. That's how it started. My H didn't appear to notice that I wasn't giving emotionally. Perhaps he was relieved and believed I was happy what with my absence of "nagging" daily for connection.
> 
> ...


*He has promised to talk this out with me. Won't happen for a few weeks as we're in the middle of lots going on right now. I mentioned the concept of rug sweeping last night and how this is what he tends to do. His response "you've been reading those marriage forums again, stop reading them, they make you think negatively". This is what I'm up against. Sigh.*

By the way, I can't thank you enough for your input.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

It took me about eight weeks to withdraw.

I was also on Xanax during that time. I have never before or since taken anything like this. But is probably helped me.

I was absolutley NC.

I honestly do not have the timeline in my head. But sometime later my wife and I did His Needs Her Needs together. 

I never throughout stopped loving my wife. My EA was caught early enough that I responded to my wife telling me I was in an EA. I did not believe ther but because I loved her and my marriage was #1 I quit my job and started withdrawal. At some point during that time I realized my wife had been right.

I did not completely forgive myself for almost 15 years. I did so at the urging of my wife. I realized that I could not be the husband she deserved until I forgave myself. I do not suggest you wait 15 years. However do not be so quick either. There are levels to forgiveness.

I am at peace with what happend and why. For me it had to do with working very long hours in an intense environment for an extended period of time. So I was not meeting my wifes needs other than bringing home more money and my schedule did not allow her to meet mine. I ended up bonding too closely with a very bright, very good looking young female Engineer who I worked with.

I was very naive, had no understanding of boundaries. My ego told me that my character was too good to get in trouble. I loved my wife and that is all I needed. I was an idiot. I had no understanding of the brain chemicals involved and so on. 

So you do need more time. You also need to bond with your husband. You can fall back in love with him. Do not allow yourself to think about the other person. That will keep you from completing withdrawal. You may also want to see a doctor.

EAs are a betrayal and we should not minimize them. However, understand that they are a very natural thing. We are wired to bond with others. Some of us I believe are more susceptable. Mine scared the hell out of me because I thought I was superman. I have done a lot of soul searching on this. You must commit yourself back into the marriage and reorogram your brain to fall back in love. Remeber all the things you have loved about your husband. 

Do His Needs Her Needs with your husband. It is a tad soon. You will want to be feeling better first. 

Good luck.

Oh and one more thing. Yes there was intensity. It was a fantasy.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Entropy, how did your EA manifest itself? Were you contacting her often, to the point that your wife noticed/ you lost noticeably valuable time with your wife?

Did you ever make a decision that favored your EA and clearly disadvantaged wife? Did you find that many of the criticisms and teasing of your wife were inspired by your EA?


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## empty3 (Mar 12, 2013)

Yes, I need more time and I need to be more patient. I'm keeping myself as busy as possible so as to distract myself from thoughts that are not good for me.

Entropy, 15 years is a long time. And I don't think you are an idiot. As you rightly said, we are wired to bond with others. What's important is you fixed it and dealt with your issues.

Next time; my AP often used to discuss this with me. How he hated himself the most when he realised he was favouring the EA over his w/family. Going home on time from work (so we could talk more)when he knew kids were off school and he could be spending the afternoon with them. He felt tremendous guilt for this. He then over-compensated for this and was particularly attentive towards his family following this realisation. During the EA he also stopped practicing his religion, said he couldn't face God.

He was as thoroughly conflicted as I was throughout the EA, but somehow it still continued. Meltdowns galore followed by apologies.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

empty3 said:


> Thanks for your post. Made me very tearful. Things are very raw right now and I'm desparately trying to get my head around what is going on. Either I'm clinically depressed or it's still early days of my detachment from my AP. When I say things were BETTER what I mean was there were not as many arguments, not as many "confrontations" about why he doesnt emotionally open up to me. I was able to "function" without there being any daily build up of resentment. I was "happy" getting my daily fill from AP and so I didn't put as much pressure on my H to provide me with any fulfilment. As you say, I escaped having to deal with my marriage and put it on a backburner. I know now and knew then my EA was pure escapism. That's how it started. My H didn't appear to notice that I wasn't giving emotionally. Perhaps he was relieved and believed I was happy what with my absence of "nagging" daily for connection.


I'm so sorry.  I know it's very painful and difficult. You could be depressed. That certainly wouldn't be surprising, given the situation. I see what you're saying about having less conflict with your H because your needs were being met by the AP and you weren't pushing your H to address them anymore. I could be totally wrong, but I think that most EAs are a form of escapism taken to extremes. 



> But youre right, being in the EA completely took me away from my marriage and from needing to work on it. Almost as though I was on some sort of sabbatical from it. I put too much emphasis on my EA believing it could be the answer to all my problems in life.


It's easier and feels better than staying in those collapsing trenches and trying to shore them up when it feels like a losing battle, huh? I feel terrible for leaving my GF to deal with everything alone. The pain and fear she must have gone through when I deserted her...I really don't know why she didn't throw in the towel ages ago. I deserved it many times over, and yet she didn't give up on me until she had nothing left. Even now, though she gets angry at me and says hurtful things (not about anything to do with the EAs, oddly enough), she also worries about me. I'm working hard to become someone who's remotely worthy of her.



> This has been something that has hit me like a tonne of bricks. We were on different playing fields. For a start I was not his first EMA. Also, he was 16 years older than me. As one poster has written, Men in EMA's are looking for a bonus to their marriages when embarking on an A. Most women have already "checked out" of their marriages when embarking on an A.


So you were more invested in the EA than he was, you think? For me, though I'm female, it was the opposite for 2 of my 3 EAs (maybe all 3, but I'm not sure about one of them). In the end, at least 2 of the OWs were more invested than I was, and I never stopped loving my GF or totally checked out. I think for the OWs, it was more a reality whereas for me, it was fantasy and escape. But I definitely wasn't totally present or invested with my GF either because I was too busy with being wrapped in my own selfishness and issues. 



> This is where the emotional instability and immaturity kicked in. Knowing in the cold light of day it was unsustainable yet in the moment believing it to be real and "unbreakable". I genuinely thought it was special and "meant to be" kind of stuff. Paths crossing, destiny and the like. Again, romanticising etc.


I know how it is. I thought my ex and I were destined to always be in each other's lives somehow, and even other people talked about the "special" bond we had and how we'd surely always be around each other. (That must have made my GF feel awful. I KNOW it made her feel awful. Ugh, I disgust myself.) It's probably the romanticizing that kept it going for longer than it would have ordinarily survived (in both situations). You end up deceiving yourself because it feels better than seeing things the way they really are.



> No impulse control issues but definately self esteem issues. Never really feeling "good enough".


I can definitely relate. I was always trying to prove myself to people and do whatever I could to be liked because I had no self-esteem to speak of and looked for my self-worth in other people.



> It seems like you've done alot of work on yourself. You should be proud of where you have reached. I hope to one day see things as clearly as you. This thing of being real vs not real is subjective depending on what stage of detachment youre at. How long have you been NC with your xOW? It seems like a long time. Yes my AP cut out on me but I pushed him to it. Knew I wasnt strong enough to end it myself so made things difficult for us to continue and he did the right thing for both of us. I will never contact him again. This I'm sure of. Too much was said and I care about him enough to let him get on with his life and not interfere.


Thank you, but I have a very long way to go.  I don't feel proud at all because I tore apart the heart of the person I love the most.  I hurt her so badly, and may have lost her forever. By all rights, I should lose her forever, but for some reason, she still seems to care about me and want me around. 

Yes, the "reality" is quite subjective and dependent on where you are. I have been truly NC with the most problematic OW (the ex) for about as long as you have, 8 weeks. But emotionally, I had been significantly detached from her for much longer. 



> No, but he has changed. The AP had alot of charachteristics I find attractive in a man that my H doesnt possess. I feel awful by saying that becos I know no-one is perfect (especially not me) but I crave those qualities and have to work hard at accepting my H has other great qualities if not the ones I escaped him for. My H is a good man.


Maybe in the upcoming discussion, you could bring these things up. Talk to him about things that you think would make the marriage better for both of you. Sometimes, even when you talk to people about things, they don't really understand or "hear" you, even if they care about you and would want to. Could be the case with him.



> Perhaps this came to you when you were faced with the reality that your GF may leave you? Made you appreciate what you have and what you stand to lose? You potentially losing her gave you the wake-up call? How long did it take you to "snap out of it"? Was there a lightbulb moment? Personal question I know, but have you ever proposed to your GF? Also, you talk of multiple EA's? Did it take you a while to accept it's not the right way of going about dealing with your relationship with your GF? How come your EA's didnt lead to PA's? Sorry for all the questions. You obviously don't have to answer them if you don't want to.


It was a combination of things, but yes, what really slapped me right out of my destructive mindset (we were angry and fighting all the time right before she moved out, and issues were a mile deep, so we were both disconnected) was the reality that she had really just left the house and that losing her was REAL. (That really polarized things for me.) I mean, the same day she left, I just aimlessly wandered around the house in the rooms where her things had been, and felt completely lost and empty. I started to realize then that I was in serious trouble. Like, "What have I DONE?" The day after she left, I started crying all the time and really feeling like my world had just ended. Like realizing you've just made the biggest WRONG move of your life. I didn't care about anything else. OW was still around, and I was trying to resign myself to losing my GF, but I couldn't accept it. Completely couldn't accept it. She was the person I wanted to spend my life with. I started researching how I could fix myself and looking for what I could do to try to R with my GF. I told OW that I couldn't be with her and asked GF what I had to do to have any hope of R with her. 

I didn't propose to my GF per se, but we have commitment rings. (Can't get married as we're both women and it's not legal here. But if we ever R, I'm going to drag her off somewhere where it IS legal and marry her like I should have ages ago.) 

Oh yes, it took a while for me to figure out that the EAs even WERE EAs and not "just close friendships". My GF was on me about that pretty frequently, and she hated that I was "friends" with my ex, too. Instead of listening to her, I dismissed her concerns and told her she was being overreactive and overly jealous and insecure. But I realize now that GF was 100% correct and that not only was I really wrong, but I was also sending my GF a TERRIBLE message.  

I have since realized that I have boundary issues combined with poor judgment and poor impulse control. I am in overdrive with working to make sure that these things never happen again. I'm now in therapy and have been diagnosed with high-functioning BPD, so that really just throws a wrench into things and makes life 10x harder for me AND the GF (especially the GF). I have realized that EAs are NOT the way to cope with problems or unmet needs in the relationship, regardless of whether or not I feel I'm getting through. (The book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass has really helped me to understand what friendship IS and ISN'T, and how to avoid getting into these situations.) Looking back from what I've learned now and where I currently am, I cannot believe all the things I did wrong and how badly I screwed up even when thinking I was doing all right. GF and I were seeing completely different realities (mine being delusional). I should have listened to her so many times, but I was convinced that I was fine and things were fine. 

I did see 2 of the 3 OWs on occasion. My EAs didn't go to PAs for a couple of reasons. 1) Because I didn't want those relationships to be "real". They were my fantasy escapes, my narcissistic supply. I was unwilling to invest any further. 2) Because in the back of my mind, I thought that anything physical would cross "the line" (though I had actually already crossed the line with the EAs).

Don't apologize; it's fine. 



> I 100% get this and know youre completely correct. I'm hoping that the longer NC continues (and this I'm adamant on) the less I'll think about him and dwell on the shouldas couldas. I'd like to aim for a state of indifference which is where u seem to be at and what alot of posters talk about. Seems to be the feeling that people experience once theyve really moved on.


Yes, that will happen for you eventually if you continue NC, hopefully sooner rather than later for you so you can begin to heal and work on things with your husband. The blessed indifference, yes! For me, it was really a matter of realizing that I COULD let go and didn't have to keep all that stuff or let it destroy my GF, me, or my life any further. That I could change and I didn't have to be stuck like that, or stuck in a certain place. It's difficult to explain, but it was a ridiculously huge epiphany. 



> It's easier for him to believe that it's me with all the issues (boredom, self-projected unhappiness etc) than to accept there may really be a problem in our marriage. He constantly says there's no problem in our M. "it's all in your head", "you should have bigger things to worry about", "anyone would love to be you", "we have a wonderful life" "grow up and understand that life is not all a bed of roses", "we have responsibilities". You get the idea. Some of what he is saying maybe the truth. But, by dismissing what I'm saying he only frustrates me more.


Uh oh. Unfortunately, your H doesn't seem to realize that he needs to contribute certain things to keep the marriage in a good place. The dismissal and invalidation of your feelings and concerns is very problematic. Even any personal issues you have, while your responsibility, still affect him and the marriage, and vice versa. If the marriage is to survive, both people have to contribute to its health and welfare by supporting each other, truly listening, and whatever else is needed. It's not all one person or the other. It sounds like he might not realize that he's missing the target. I know it can be difficult for people to do these things, but that doesn't change that they must happen.

I understand your frustration and desire to stop trying sometimes. Not being heard makes a person feel pretty helpless to change things.



> He has promised to talk this out with me. Won't happen for a few weeks as we're in the middle of lots going on right now. I mentioned the concept of rug sweeping last night and how this is what he tends to do. His response "you've been reading those marriage forums again, stop reading them, they make you think negatively". This is what I'm up against. Sigh.[/B]
> 
> By the way, I can't thank you enough for your input.


He needs to come on here and read, LOL! Sounds like he is going to need help with the "listening" part of talking things out. I'm sure he's just trying to be helpful with these comments that he makes to you, but he's actually being very invalidating, and that's not good. It's going to keep alienating you.  

You're very welcome. It's helpful for me to discuss these things as well.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Entropy, how did your EA manifest itself? Were you contacting her often, to the point that your wife noticed/ you lost noticeably valuable time with your wife?
> 
> *My EA was 99% work contact. My wife noticed my behavior. We have always had transparency and I had nothing to hide. So she picked evidence by the email exchanges which wer not often. Folks here would say I had a work wife. That hurts to say actually but it is accurate.* *The emails even when pointed out by my wife at the time seems innocent to me ... at the time. We were just close friends and colleagues. Who spent a huge amoutn fo time together. Later I would look back at the emails and I understood. It is obvious now. My wife could enter where I worked. DoD stuff. However there was a couple I worked with who were our friends. My wife contacted them for help.
> *
> ...


We worked on the same team on projects. Long hours. The projects were quite demanding. Intense. We had great successes so it was exciting too. We became a very tight team of a dozen folks. In hindsight I would classify my role as the AMOG on the team but it was not unlike Bones in that everyone contributed in major ways. I was a top technologist in my Aerospace company. I would end up having to walk away from this because frankly the most important thing in my life was my wife. 

Long story short without intending to I believe we started to meet some of each others needs. So I now understand some of why she was attracted to me. She found value in the AMOG. In a team setting I can be quite charismatic but I truly value everyone on the team. She sought validation. Understood ... now. I basked in that admiration. Validation again. What we did was exciting for a group of techies. My wife has always shown me admiration. However I was isolated from her due to my work for a prolonged period. Not good.

I am not sure how long it was at an EA status. Possibly only a relatively short time. Some number of weeks maybe. However this developed over a long period so perhaps much longer. Again, the work was often day and night and on weekends. We were colleagues and it turned into an all too close friendship. She absolutely showed me admiration / respect. I should note she was "my type" in a number of ways. She could turn heads for sure BUT this was not the primary emotional attraction. She was very bright with an advanced degree. Think Penny in Big Bang with a Masters in Engineering. LOL. That was probably the fantasy of it at the least. A romantic notion perhaps. And yes these things are fantasies. The 80/20 rule of having needs met.

The thing is that much of the feelings that developed were legitimate. Seriously we were a tight team and honestly cared and respected for each other. A lot. But this is a slippery slope. I have an ego that is off the charts when it comes to technical projects in my field and leading teams of Alpha techies. I also am incredibly humbled by what I engage. So I gravitate towards high risk high value projects and must be all about the team. I know I can lead the right team to success.
Compulsive personality? No doubt. I likely have a propensity for an EA. I know this now. 

But I was certain of my love for my wife. I was certain of my charcter. Nothing could make me stray. This is pretty much a requirement for an EA for the persons ego to tell them that they could never get in trouble. They are in control. I loved my wife too much for anything to go awry. What a fool. It was a blind spot. Fortunately my wife, my wingwoman had my back.

So ego, naivete and plain stupidity allowed things to start. I had no concept for brain chemicals. I worked in a male dominated field so for the most part I was left unchalleged to this extent before. I had no idea. It was a perfect storm waiting to happen. I was in over my head. You see good looking women are not a challenge to me. I don't mean that in an eogotistic way. I am just not overly impressed by physical looks. Meaning I have never been intimidated by looks. I enjoy the appearance of a good looking woman but really I get past that pretty much instantly. It is too supeficial to matter past a point.

Anyway, I think back and we interacted often enough. I no doubt gave her attention and praise. At first I am sure not unlike with the rest of the team. However these brain chemicals kicked in. I believe she started to dress more attractively. She always gave me a big smile and yes I could see myself in her eyes. That was not just my imagination. She made it clear that she was envious of my wife and would have been proud to be Mrs. Entropy3000. She openly stated this to others.

Anyway, my wife got my attention and was incredibly loving about it all. She explained what I was going through. She said I was having an EA. She said that my work schedule had isolated her. She understood how I could be infatuated with this other woman. In essence she made it clear our marriage would be over if I continued. There was no shouting. I insisted we were just friends. But that I would never hurt my wife and out of love for her I would trust her ... so I changed jobs almost immediately. Interview the next week and then two weeks notice. I walked away from a techies dream job, but I made a leap of faith. Afer withdrawal I then knew my wife was right. She pulled me from the Abyss. This was an incredible act of faith and love on my wifes part.

This whole thing shook me and took many years for me to get over the shame I felt inside. I had to let it go though. Not for me. But for my wife. Also as can be seen this will always be with me at some level. I f^cked up.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

empty3 said:


> Yes, I need more time and I need to be more patient. I'm keeping myself as busy as possible so as to distract myself from thoughts that are not good for me.
> 
> Entropy, 15 years is a long time. And I don't think you are an idiot. As you rightly said, we are wired to bond with others. What's important is you fixed it and dealt with your issues.
> 
> ...


EAs are an addiction. They must be caught early on. Becuase it is like being sucked into a black hole.

They destroy marriages. 

But this a live and learn. Men and women fall in love. This love may very be a fantasy but it is all about brain chemcals and so on. Boundaries are critical. But you have to be able to see the threats.

While some folks have a proepnsiy for them no doubt I believe these can happen to anyone under the right conditions. It is hard to believe for those who have not been there. Essentially ones integrity is compromised. This is especially damaging if one holds this integrity as very important.

I have bo doubt that EAs are pervasive. People just see them as very close friendships. Technology has made EAs just a FB message away. I see comments about how this or that oppposite sex friend is more imprtant than the marriage and then they say it is not an EA. Right.



> I think that most EAs are a form of escapism taken to extremes.


I agree, but it is a ratcheting kind of thing. It spirals downward. An EA can cause problems in a marriage which re-enforce the EA and on and on.

The root cause for me after years of analysis is that I isolated myself from my wife doing what I thought I was supposed to do for my family. So the first affair awas my job. I did this. Not my wife. It was this that made me vulnerable. I needed better boundaries but my ego told me I was fine. I was not fine. I needed to put a better balance into my marriage. Much of the original drive here was money. But His Needs Her Needs changed my whole view of my marriage.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

empty3 said:


> I've done so much reading on affairs (both EA and PA) and the why's, how's, when's, who's etc that my eyes are now popping out.
> 
> Some questions have been answered. Some understanding (actually alot of understanding) as to *why* it happened and the whole process of *what* happened. I've managed to put it into some theoretical perspective as at this moment in time I need it to make sense and not dwell on it too much..
> 
> ...


Did you feel like you had more "power' or "control" in the EA as compared to the committed /obligated relationship?Or even "less helpless in it?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEhttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/infatuation][/QUOTE]


Its old school ..but real and alive...think of it as a possiblity..


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> [QUOTEhttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/infatuation]



Its old school ..but real and alive...think of it as a possiblity..[/QUOTE]

Yes indeed. 

BTW the OW was actually replaced by a high horsepower red mustang cobra. MLC type vehicle. My wife is one smart lady. I don't deserve her. But she does see something in me.

But it did become a hobby that I needed.


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## empty3 (Mar 12, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> Did you feel like you had more "power' or "control" in the EA as compared to the committed /obligated relationship?Or even "less helpless in it?


On the contrary. I had very little control in the EA. So many restrictions and my AP held too much of the power as he controlled accessibilty. I was more accessible than he was which caused problems. I felt helpless and so 2nd rate towards the end and realised it was sending me deeper into a state of low worth. If anything, perhaps the EA gave me more "control" in my M. Allowed me to feel like I had a bit of self-respect and not always "begging" for discussion or attention. But as we all know, this was a short-term fix and one way or another I had to face my M eventually, not to mention getting deeply hurt by my EA in the process.

I look back now and I wonder was it all worth it? Well the withdrawal from my EA is causing me deep disconnection issues with everyone and everything in my life. I'm hoping this will pass. I feel the time I had with my AP was special but I know it was wrong. It was a coping mechanism that was not sustainable and unfair to my H. As it happens, I am exactly back to where I was before the EA happened but this time I'm gonna deal with my sh** the right way.

My H and I had the talk. Started off with both of us blaming the other. Both feeling like we've tried. Me in despair with no solution but separation. He absolutely refusing citing that's a "copout". Ended in separate rooms that night. I've since realised he and I can't talk face to face when we're like this. next day we bbm'd and was much more productive. 

In summary, he feels like I'm giving up and perhaps we just going through a rough patch and I'm being fatalistic about our M. He feels dissapointed I'd give up so easily and feels he is trying his best. Has asked for more postivity as everything I say is negative (well that's how I feel). Anyway, I listened and took note without getting defensive. I asked for more connection and understanding. I've since realised that's too abstact and need to give examples of how I feel connected to him and what demonstrates I feel understood. Feels tedious but it's got to be done I guess.

How did you all try to rebuild connection after your EA's?

Sex has been good last few days. Probably more frequent than what it has been these past few years. It's a start at least. We are both trying. Feel relieved I'm still sexually attracted to him as thought I'd lost that.

Any other ideas on how to re-connect or "fall back in love"?

Also, he has not asked about the EA since being back. I have a feeling he's never gonna bring it up. He minimised it during our big fight. He's gonna file it away in his brain and try not to think about him. From what I know after reading this site, that's not a good thing. I don't want to bring it up again as he clearly doesnt want to talk about it.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

empty3,

My story is contained in the two links in my signature. It is a bit different than your typical EA story but it is similar in that it was self-recognized leading me to withdraw. It was a one-sided EA where the OW didn’t really know the full extent of my feelings, though she probably knew anyway. Based on my experiences I have answered some of your questions below.



empty3 said:


> Yeh right.. fat chance of that.. It's always on my mind and as I try hard to try and put my marriage back on track, I also simultaneously have these pangs of "how could all that intensity in the EA have meant nothing?", "How could it all just now be gone?", "did it not mean anything?"


Feelings are one sided and are caused by the neural chemistry in your brain. These feelings only mean something when they are instantiated by a reciprocating relationship that can grow and produce things independent of the feelings. You realized your relationship with the OM was flawed and that you were not in control and that it was building nothing but the destruction of your marriage. Thus for you there was a lack of meaning.

My EA did build something and therefor it had more meaning than a transient chemical state of mind. In my case the OW helped me become a better father, husband and person and I took away those gifts which still mean something to me and my wife.



empty3 said:


> For those of you who have been in similar situations how did you manage? I know that four letter swear word (TIME) will be mentioned alot and I'm sure it's true but I'm still quite fixated on the AP. I've managed NC for 8 weeks and my self-respect will not allow me to make contact (ended with a d-day and me basically being told to eff off) but my thoughts are always drifting and taking me back to moments that we shared.. good and bad..


I focused on other things like my main hobby and activities with my kids as a distraction. Then I redoubled my efforts to bond with my wife. By doing exciting things with her I was rebuilding the neural connections and squeezing out the ones of the OW. The goal was to keep my mind busy and active. But there was always the inevitable invasion of thoughts of the OW. One of the tricks I used was to outline in detail her flaws and start thinking about them when thoughts of her invaded my mind. 



empty3 said:


> How did you all try to rebuild connection after your EA's?
> 
> Sex has been good last few days. Probably more frequent than what it has been these past few years. It's a start at least. We are both trying. Feel relieved I'm still sexually attracted to him as thought I'd lost that.


This is another facet of my EA that is different than most. The worst part of our marriage had been a few years earlier. My wife and I had managed to rebuild a connection. When the EA was in effect the relationship between my wife and I was the best it had been perhaps in our entire marriage. Thankfully this helped me recognize what I was doing. 

In retrospect the things that worked in rebuilding the connection was twofold. First I invested in myself and restarted hobbies and did other things to make me happier. This included losing weight etc. 

Second, I identified several problems with our marriage and worked on them independent of getting her to work on anything. We had a toxic way of assuming the worst of each other in interactions. I simply stopped that and assumed the best. We also had communication issues. We started having special time on weekend morning where we would go over our schedules for the week. These two things created an environment that was better for the both of us. And once she detected that she was more amenable to dating and doing that kind of stuff again. So I started to woo her as I did when we were dating. I fell in love with her again.

In retrospect after reading TAM, I see myself as having done a mini 180 light, in combination with a bit of manning up. It works.

I recommend that you work on yourself and identify what you think are major issues that you can work on in your marriage that he will notice.



empty3 said:


> Any other ideas on how to re-connect or "fall back in love"?
> 
> Also, he has not asked about the EA since being back. I have a feeling he's never gonna bring it up. He minimised it during our big fight. He's gonna file it away in his brain and try not to think about him. From what I know after reading this site, that's not a good thing. I don't want to bring it up again as he clearly doesnt want to talk about it.


My wife does not talk about the EA either. She is still very aware of it, I can tell but she doesn’t speak of it. She is very watchful and I think has done a couple of tests which I passed. So just because your husband doesn’t speak of it doesn’t mean it’s not on his mind. I don’t know him and he may be in denial. I would treat this by becoming very transparent with your actions, accounts and whereabouts. This will help rebuild trust. You may need to prove to him that you are capable of trust. 

I admire your pull out of the EA and hope that you can recover your relationship with your husband.


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