# Love Or Security.. or possibly both?!? Please help!!



## LearningEveryDay (Feb 2, 2012)

Hello everyone! 

I am new to the forum and in dire need of advice! I will jump right into it. I have been dating the same girl all through college (on and off - mostly on), so about four years. I knew she had student loans but I was never exactly sure of how much. Being a finance and international business major, this always alarmed me but being absolutely in love I thought with my heart and not my head and didn't push the issue too hard. I asked many times throughout college for a number what her debt would total - but she would always come back with "I'm wasn't exactly sure, I will figure it out" - Again, alarming! 

We graduated last year from The Penn State University (R.I.P JoePa). She went on to graduate school at Boston University = more debt. She is studying to become a Registered Dietician with a masters in Nurtition. This career alarms me because unless she lands a huge job the average salary sits around 50k. I graduated and moved to Wisconsin for an 18-month training program. I have no debt and am making 68k in my first 18-months and then my salary will jump up substantially when I move back to PA for my permenant sales gig (60-80k/year). I have been saving and investing towards my future while she is going to school, racking up more debt, and didn't even have a job! 

I don't want to paint too horrible of a picture here. She is an AMAZING girl with a great family. She is beautiful and has sooo many characteristics I absolutely adore. BUT- Here comes the big whammy! I was beginning to go ring shopping in preparation for an engagement ring I planned on giving her this upcoming Summer before we both move back to PA. I pried and pried for the number of debt and after she did some "digging" with her parents the number was exposed.. 120k!!!! My stomach dropped and my heart was crushed.. Here I spent the last four years falling absolutely in love with this girl while she (or her parents) held this number from me. 

I got on her hard and she is now working two part time jobs while going to school full time. I want the best for her - with or without me.. She is my best friend and I understand this number could crush her. I have an unfortunate gut feeling that her parents were going to try to rely on me to pay this debt. Her dad has bought two Corvettes (one and then traded the other in) over the last four years and also joined a (relatively inexpensive.. but still..) country club. The last thing I would be doing if I was in his shoes would be spending money aimlessly... I am soooo lost on what to do?! We are "taking some space".. We have about 11 months until we move back to PA so I figured this is a good time to take some time apart.. Her parents told me they would never expect me to pay this and plan on helping her out every year -.. Well, then why would they wait until I threaten a break up to start cracking at this?! The live in a nice house and take vacations pretty regularly! - I would NEVER have guessed! They have always treated me like gold and welcomed me with open arms as their family! 

I am lost and hope someone can give me some financially savvy but still compassionate advice. I love this girl and never saw myself with anyone else... But I also enjoy the finer things and only want the best for my, my children's, and my family's future. ... Any and all well thought out advice is appreciate.. Try to be relatively easy, but real.. This girl means the world to me! 


"A good leader knows when to lead and when to step back and learn" 

Looking to learn more EVERYDAY! 

-LearningEveryDay


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

LearningEveryDay- Okay, I'll take a crack at your situation.

First of all, kudos to you. You sound like you have your head on straight regarding fiscal matters. Kind of expected in a Finance grad, but you never know.... 

Second, I have some suggestions of pieces of information you might want to track down, to understand your situation better.

Was your g/f faithful to you during your "off" periods in college? You two are in a long distance relationship right now. How certain are you that she is faithful now? Do you think she was deliberately not-telling you the debt numbers when you asked her over the years? Her Dad is buying sports cars and taking vacations while his daughter amasses some pretty hefty debt. Is he a profligate spender in other ways in his life? How extravagant are her Mom's tastes?

Some of these bits of info are pretty self-explanatory, but the details about how her parents spend money will help you figure out how she is going to (want to) act as your wife.

If her parents know anything about debt, they know its better not to have it in the first place. Trading in a Corvette to get a newer Corvette doesn't strike me as being very prudent with one's money. So their assertion that they will help pay off her debt every year sounds kind of hokey to me. Generally, when you enter a marriage, your individual debts become jointly shared debts- you don't go asking your parents to pay your bills when you're married.

So all I can say is that for having dated her for 4 years, it seems like there are some really important things about her that you don't really know. And that's not good.

So what are the potential outcomes?

Best case: She finishes grad school, gets a job, and you two get married. Her parents give you several thousand dollars a year to pay down her debts, and she lives as frugally as the two of you can, until the student loan debt is gone. You find a nice house, have a couple of kids, and live happily ever after.

Worst case: She finishes grad school, gets a job that she's not really happy at, and you two get married. Mom & Dad pay for a nice wedding, but due to Dad's hotrod car note, they can't help much with the student loan debt. Wife not only shares your taste for the finer things in life, she has finer tastes than you. The loan debt gets paid down very slowly, and you find yourself working your ass off without much time to appreciate life. Your house isn't quite as big as you would have liked, and you don't have much of a financial cushion against job loss or unexpected emergencies.

If I were you, I would sit down and build a spreadsheet, and assume the worst, no outside help, and figure out what you and her would need to do to erase the debt. And that would include forecasting out your spending until the debt was gone. Then figure out how much you love her. If you love her enough that its worth it, wave your budget under her nose and go over it with her until you think she understands it and agrees with it. If you get that far, and trust her to abide by that budget, well, go for the ring! 

Please note that I am not judging your g/f either way. You made it through college, so you're smart enough to figure this out for yourself. You just don't have all the information you need to make an informed decision. So go get the information!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I would not assume that her parents were counting on you to pay the debt. It could simply be that they are not savvy with money and foolishly figure it will take care of itself. It could also be that your g/f's debt was hers from the start and they might help (but no guarantees).

I would not tie her school debt to her feelings for you at this point. If her folks spend money this way, it's likely the learned this attitude from them and does not see it the way you do. Of course this points to the first big issue - is she a "spender" expecting to get what she wants and you foot the bill?

The second big issue (even if her attitude about money and budgeting is reasonable) is the sheer amount of debt. If we assume she ends up owning $150k at 6%, that is $1,265 per month for 15 years, or $900 per month for 30 years. Congrats on that new baby mortgage! 

You need to recognize that, if you marry her, your lifestyle will take a hit if those loans are in her name. You cannot expect her to live frugally on $50k less loan payments while you live well (even if she agreed to such an arrangement, how would it work - live in a bad place, you go out while she stays home?)

You need to figure out what your lifestyle goals are before all else (kids, material comfort level, travel and entertainment preferences). I would make the decision to marry her assuming you were going to get little or nothing from her folks (given your misgivings) if your g/f is the borrower. They could decide that their lifestyle is more important than their commitment to you. Or the could hit financial issues (consider their spending habits).

You're a business guy (as am I), so I'll lay it out briefly. 

* Get her loan docs. See who actually signed the notes and how much was owed on each loan through the end of 2010, and what the loan terms are.
* Get her tax stuff. Look at the education 1099's to see how much tuition she paid this year. Use that to estimate how much extra she will spend until she graduates and then her total debt.
* Do the calculations and see what debt means on a day-to-day basis. Have a serious discussion to see how she plans to manage payments of 20% or more of her before-tax salary.
* Listen carefully to her and make a decision from there.

I know she means the world to you. But, there's nothing wrong with deciding that you do not want to marry that much financial baggage, regardless of how focused and prudent she seems. You cannot write it off in a bankruptcy. Your own salary is not so great that you can absorb that debt easily.

This will be tough regardless of what you decide to do. Best of luck to you on this.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

That's a heck of a lot of debt!

Still, while you mention that she is in the states, it seems like you are putting blame and assumed ownership in the wrong areas. She is an adult. Over 18. Unless her parents made some sort of agreement to pay for her college, you might waste a lot of frustration if you really expect the father's corvette to have anything to do with her situation, other than to show that she has had a poor role model. He's not obligated to pay for anything, other than provide her heath care until she is 26, under the new health care law.

Also, unless he is a part of a fundamentalist religion, its probably a bit unfair to assume that he expects another man to take care of the little ol' woman's debt.

Ask her how she intends to pay this. Lay the responsibility at her feet, if the debt outweighsyour feelings for her. Maybe suggest that she delays marrying, so she can live frugally and pay it off. It does sound, however, that she is making an attempt to work two part time jobs in order to approach this in a mature way, at least now.

Some people look at marriage as a short term investment. Others look at it as a long term partnership. This is a huge deal, but I'd just caution you to make sure you are looking at this from the perspective of a man who may love this woman for the rest of his life. If she has the integrity to do the common sense things, like not expecting a lavish existance until she pays this off, or the two of you pay it off, and understands the simple fact that excess debt is really bad, maybe those are the characteristics that really matter.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have reacted just like you. It would've blown my mind. I was concerned that my wife had poor role models, but found out that together, we learned to be pretty good with debt. We had premature children, which landed us into a much higher debt that your girlfriend, but in our case, my wife and I buckled down and paid it off. Financially, those were the traits that mattered long term. Still, these would've never outweighed her other traits, assuming that the financial habits weren't seriously out of whack.

If it matters, though, I do think parents SHOULD pay their children's tuition. I pay cash in the tune of $50k per year currently for mine, combined, when all expenses are factored in. But I've learned that I'm in the minority.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Why is it the spenders always seem to marry the frugal people?

Consider yourself lucky that you found out about the debt BEFORE you married her. I was not so lucky. My husband had debt (not near as much as what you are looking at but still it was a lot to me). Took me 12 years to pay it off. Our story had a happy ending though. We tackled the debt together, he cut up the credit cards, sold his new car, in short he became better with money and we've now been married for 20 years. But I'm not sugarcoating it this came after LOTS of fights, LOTS of stress and LOTS of frustration on my part. Not a good way to start a marriage let me tell you.

So on that note I'm with Halien. Ask her how she intends to pay this off and delay marrying her until she makes a significant dent in it. See if the debt just magically goes away with no effort on her part she will do this again. Lay the responsibility at her feet. Then observe if she's willing to learn how to manage money of if she's just going through the motions.

This isn't to me a dealbreaker but it does have 'proceed with caution' written all over it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

She has been raised by people who are not finacially savvy. This is evident by the fact that they allowed their daughter to get into $120K worth of debt against a potential income of $50K per year, and the spending you describe.

So she has been taught badly, so the first thing you should think about is whether you can teach her about sound finanicial principles. Do you think you can influence her so she will line up with your personal financial policies and way from her parents' teachings? Beyond the debt issue, if she as your wife is a spender while you are a saver, then you will have a problem.

Don't be afraid to tell her that her parents must be very bad at finances if they allowed her to get into this debt, it is a very high burden for her to get out from under.

YOu have to decide is this woman worth your assuming all of this debt, or not. You cannot marry someone with 120K worth of debt and compartmentalize it to only "her debt". If as you seem to be that you'd rather not marry her and assume this debt, you have to take a chance that she will get mad and dump you as you take the steps to avoid assuming this debt yourself. IF you want to marry her so much, and you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings in process, then you have to resolve that you decided to assume this debt and then don't resent her for the rest of your life or act like she owes you anything. If you are willing to take a slight risk that she will dump you or you create a problem, you should tell her that you can only marry her if her parents sign a written agreement to assume a certain amount of this debt. Oral, nebulous agreements DO NOT WORK. You can tell her that you will handle speaking to her father about this, with her blessing. This is what I would do if I were you. Remeber, you are the financial superior of this man, so don't be afraid.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

She has been raised by people who are not finacially savvy. This is evident by the fact that they allowed their daughter to get into $120K worth of debt against a potential income of $50K per year, and the spending you describe.

So she has been taught badly, so the first thing you should think about is whether you can teach her about sound finanicial principles. Do you think you can influence her so she will line up with your personal financial policies and way from her parents' teachings? Beyond the debt issue, if she as your wife is a spender while you are a saver, then you will have a problem.

Don't be afraid to tell her that her parents must be very bad at finances if they allowed her to get into this debt, it is a very high burden for her to get out from under.

YOu have to decide is this woman worth your assuming all of this debt, or not. You cannot marry someone with 120K worth of debt and compartmentalize it to only "her debt". If as you seem to be that you'd rather not marry her and assume this debt, you have to take a chance that she will get mad and dump you as you take the steps to avoid assuming this debt yourself. IF you want to marry her so much, and you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings in process, then you have to resolve that you decided to assume this debt and then don't resent her for the rest of your life or act like she owes you anything. If you are willing to take a slight risk that she will dump you or you create a problem, you should tell her that you can only marry her if her parents sign a written agreement to assume a certain amount of this debt. Oral, nebulous agreements DO NOT WORK. You can tell her that you will handle speaking to her father about this, with her blessing. This is what I would do if I were you. Remeber, you are the financial superior of this man, so don't be afraid.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Allowed her? Her parents are not to blame for her poor choices.

Adults have the power to change and discard any destructive behaviours learned in childhood. Blaming parents is just an immature cop out. 

There were several things I learned about marriage from my parents. Most of it was unhealthy and sick, so I taught myself better behaviours. It would be cowardly for me to justify poor choices with "That's how I was raised!"


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Some really good advice and comments here. I second most of it.

There is one more thing you have to factor in: Babies. Set aside your own plans for children for a minute - this is about her. You run a real big financial risk if she gets pregnant any time soon. it's two parts: One is her time off from the workforce while pregnant, and after birth. The other is added expenses of having and raising a child. Don't make best case assumptions as to how much (little) the impact will be. 

Right now, she is probably telling you that "no way is she going to have a kid anytime soon". What she won't tell you, and what millions of men your age have found out the hard way, is that in addition to accidents happening, she is very likely to experience as sudden change of heart once married. And she's just a likely not going to tell you about it until after the child is on its way. Does she think it's better for a mother to stay home and be a SAHM, or to immediately go back to work? Because if she doesn't *really* like her work, staying home may seem to her like an escape from all the stress and financial pressures (I know it doesn't make numerical sense, but consider that it puts ALL the responsibility for making enough money on you, and leaves her with only the responsibility to spend it).

If you are as concerned about being financially secure as you sound, you need to approach this very, very cautiously.

I spent the first 8 years of my marriage buried under significant debt, and it was a killer stress. I only got out because of a significant equity event - something you can't count on or plan for. If I could do it all over, I wouldn't do that again.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> Allowed her? Her parents are not to blame for her poor choices.
> 
> Adults have the power to change and discard any destructive behaviours learned in childhood. Blaming parents is just an immature cop out.


In my world, an 18 year old "adult" has to be guided by her parents not to assume a huge debt to pay for college, screwing up the rest of their life. College is not a destructive behavior. Lack of parental leadership is key here.


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