# How long do you give counseling?



## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

Here's the skinny....been married 14 years. My wife and I have slowly lived separate lives last number of years. She has her own business. I felt I was showing responsibility by taking care of the kids on weekends and nights. However even though I started pulling my weight with chores and kids (an old complaint)...it still didn't win her affection. We have two great kids. She treated me bad...trying to push me away (which she admitted). She would distance herself from me emotionally and mentally. We would go to parties and she would go to the other side of the room. I respected her independence....but had enough. Looking at her family...the women in her family to me with some reading had attachment issues. 

In Oct I confronted her and gave her some books saying our marriage was in bad shape...if its not too late let's work on it. She said "yes" we were in dire straits. She said I was great guy, a stand up guy, and a great dad....however she didn't love me....and she couldn't see going to a counselor would change that. She was (imo) predetermined to divorce, but agreed to counseling for the kids sake. She said she knew she was going to disappoint everybody....

We have had two months and there are no signs of her trying. She is pretty apathetic to the marriage, however she still attends. We had assignments and she admitted she couldn't put pen to paper. I slightly see her letting go of her anger...but then I wonder if she is coming to this...knowing separation and divorce is near.

She has sworn up and down in therapy and to me there is no one else. 

So like the Spartans I have gone into the pass knowing the fight might be hopeless. I come from old school values...where divorce is really shunned and you work through the issues. Its tough living here...where every day I feel rejected. We do have conversations but it focuses on her business. She does not care about my stuff. That's the bottomline she does not care. I approached it like a guy....read all the books...looking for a magic bullet. Therapist has told me "patience". We are doing our separate sessions now.

With my guts and heart put through cuisnart...I try to take it one day at a time. Try to be happy old self that is usually optimistic, but its tough when you think this is the last xmas as a family etc. 

So how long do you go with therapy when the other person is not budging???? Please let me know your thoughts. happy Holidays.


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## TGTLTBTS (Sep 16, 2011)

I am on the opposite side as you, as I relate to your wife. But my H and I are doing IC right now and plan to separate in Feb. and our counselor said that once we are separated she will be able to see within 60 days whether there is any positive movement and then she would suggest an exit plan if not. Doesn't your counselor say anything about how she/he feels it is going between the two of you?? 

How old are your children, mine are 8 and I was just curious.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

My kids are 9 and 12. 

Counselor has not passed a judgement yet...since she is still exploring our past histories with family of origin background.

What frustrates me....(and maybe your wife)...is that reading the books I see our dynamic clearly spelled out there. For example my wife is a big controller and I am Mr Pleaser (to the point where its painful for me). And there are remedies. All couples go through this. I remember an old guy I met long ago who was married three times said ultimately the same issues came up with every one of his wives. And he wished he worked it out the issues with his first wife.

Again maybe I old fashioned but tthe greatest gift we can give our kids is for us to be a couple. I don't won't it if she is miserable in the relationship. We can survive a divorce. But there is not abuse, gambling, or other real nasty factors in between us. 

Do you see your dynamic in the material you are reading?


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## Voyager (May 23, 2011)

You can't really give a time table to counseling. There are too many factors involved and they differ for each individual. Perhaps the most important is the willingness to change and the realization that it's not the counseling that changes you. It's the desire to change. The counseling, assuming it's competent, just provides a possible road map. It took 14 years for your relationship to get to this point so it sounds as if the two of you took years to drift apart. This process will test your patience.

For the first 4 or 5 months after my wife and I started counseling I felt that she wasn't putting forth any effort whatsoever. It took a new counselor and several more months for me to realize that my timetable was not my wife's timetable. I could either be patient, or I could walk away. But I could not force her to change. Now, at 16 months, I am still occasionally frustrated. But I look back at where we were a year ago and realize that there have been changes. We are in a better spot than we were. 

We were attending marriage counseling twice a month and my wife saw an individual counselor on the off weeks for over a year. So it was pretty intense for a while. We recently moved and stopped seeing our counselors but have agreed that if either of us feels the need we would find a new marriage counselor. I guess I mention this to make a point: counseling is a tool; it is not a fix. Use it when you need it. But ultimately the results have to come from within.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Marriage counseling fails 70% of the time or more. Generally they do more to prepare a couple for separation than to bring them together.

Take a look at the books in my signature block about building a passionate marriage. They would probably help you more.


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## TGTLTBTS (Sep 16, 2011)

Blakeeddie, I am the wife who is not sure she wants to be married any longer. My issues are different than yours and the books that I read tend to point me in the direction of leaving. You can look up my threads to find my issues if you would like, alike in some ways but very different in others. 

It is hard on both sides of the coin. I am sure it is hard for your wife knowing that she may want to end your relationship and tear apart your family. 

What dynamics are you referring to? Communication problems, Lack of intimacy, Rugsweeping for YEARS are the dynamics of our marriage....


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## TGTLTBTS (Sep 16, 2011)

I am the controller and he is very passive-aggressive too which is another dynamic I suppose.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Blakeedie,

I can relate to your situation. My wife walked out on me 7 weeks ago today. Prior to that she had shocked me with news she wanted to Divorce, 9 months before. We worked on it for months, tried a MC who was not very good, then tried some other things.

It was obvious she was hardly trying through this whole process. As the typical guy, I tried everything to fix it, but her heart was not in it. We are currently doing MC and IC both. She is still in the blame game mode, but I am hoping our MC can get her to look inside herself and see she needs to change if this will ever work. I am determined to change, now she needs to also change or we will fail.

She blames me for her unhappiness and have become the justification for her walking away, but I think deep down we both know it is something she is struggling about internally with aging. Having read up on MLC, she hits every point. What I have learned is that "Patience" is a must, which could take months or years. In the mean time I will continue to improve myself for her if she re-engages in a once very good marriage, or for my next lover. 

We never had children which a makes seperation and divorce much easier, which is a good thing and a bad thing all at the same time.

The bottom line is I did love her very much up until D day, but since this seperation, I can see my love for her is starting to fade. 

If you want to save it be patient and be the best you can be.



BTW: I disagree with any counsellor who calims 60 days is all that is needed to decide the future. I didn't know crystal balls work.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

You need to begin the 180 immediately. You also need to set your own time table. If her heart is not in it and she is only going through the motions, it is already over. Do the 180 for yourself. Work on YOU and let the chips fall where they may. After 90 days of the 180. I would go for separation with the intention of divorce and hope things got better. Sorrow, man. I feel for you

If you want to feel better about your situation, read my story. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/26991-how-would-you-interpret-message.html. Not for the faint of heart ;-)


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

Marriage counseling can work, but both partners have to be willing to do the work. It does not sound like she's doing the work. It also sounds like there is another man in the background....maybe not physically with her but emotionally with her. Can you investigate this further?

I ageee with KanDo. Time to do the 180. Work on yourself, get your own life going. If she can't value you what you bring to the marriage, that is her loss....and that is the attitude that has the most chance of getting her back.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

What's the 180? I am working out 5 days a week. I have a band that I playing with for a two years with some old friends. Its great therapy.

I will investigate if there is someone else more.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Her going to counseling is not the solution to your marital problems.

Basically, what happened is you allowed your wife to mentally leave the marriage. You allowed her business and her children to become the primary focus of her life. YOu allowed this because you were conflict avoidant. So how on earth is her going to IC going to fix that problem?

You have to work to shift her focus away from her independent life and motherhood and towards you and her marriage. You have do things that will attract her into doing this.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Start reading here:http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

and here:The Healing Heart: The 180

It sounds like you are your wifes doormat and she doesn't like door mats. She needs a man not a wimp. Actually maning up probably won't be that difficult for you. Many men here have done it and saved their marriages.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I agree that counselling hardly ever works. And the fault is that the counsellors are usually no good. Remember youre paying her and the longer she can keep you the better. Dont believe that she has hundreds of customers and is doing you a favor by finding time for you. 
How long has your wife got her own business. Do you also have.
Most likely not. She sees herself now as above you. You may have taken care of her for years but thats all forgotten.
Do you help her in her business or does she rather you keep out of it. 
For your future it really depends on your wifes upbringing and family. Is divorce there also frowned upon.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

You are absolutely right on the respect dynamic....it takes two to play and I let myself get disrepected. I have ordered one of those books. It might be too late...where she has abandoned the marriage.

Her mom had left her father when she was 14 but they did get back together. I don't think they divorced. Divorce is not as frowned upon.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

You havent just now really answered all my questions so I take it in the affirmative. I wouldnt say its too late yet but with more of the facts we can help you better.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

Sorry Accept. Here's the answers to your questions.

She has run her business for 5 years. I was supportive the whole way. No- I do not work in her business. I do well at a corporate gig- make 4x what she makes. However you did hit on something that she doesn't respect that. It has gotten very busy where she is constantly taking calls and emails from her clients. They have her on beck and call. Again that's where she is disconnected from me and the kids focused on her business. I have manned up in the last year and called her on this behavior.

Also let the record show I also pushed to get us into counseling. I understand the stats....they suck. But a lot of times (my case falls there as well) its the last ditch effort. Honestly as a society we are bunch of wimps in my opinion to really work through issues. We are all too willing to selfishly throw in the towel. 

Here's a question to you....if not marriage counseling what else is the alternative???


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

OK since you ask. What exactly does your wife want. Is it a divorce or is she happy the way things are.
How old are your kids about and how do they come into it.
What about her family, I suppose they know, what do they say.
You may be earning more money but being your own boss can be termed 'higher'.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

She hates limbo as much as I do. She doesn't want to go back to where we were.

I think my wife wants a divorce, but hates putting the kids through it. They are 12 and 9 yr old.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

Her family really likes me, but understands she is not happy. They hope that we can work it out. She comes from a family of tough as nails women.....so they close up emotionally. And I can't pick the lock. They become detached emotionally.

I took a lot of crap over the years. I love my kids and spending time with them...that was wrong not to address this years ago.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

Well you have to have it out with her. What do the therapists say. I suppose youre scared she will say divorce and you dont want to hear that. Maybe she can tell you conditions that if you kept she would agree to. I dont believe a marriage should be under 'conditions' but you never know they may not be that difficult. As you say she also has the children to think of and is so consumed with her business that she is not really looking for someone else. I gather she would also 'dump' the children on you whatever she says otherwise. She most likely at one time had good times with you and has not forgotten them.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

Actually I have my plan B....moving out completely mapped out. I am readying myself for divorce, even though it pisses me off I feel there are solutions to save it. Therapist says patience. Holidays are stressful.....maybe things shake out a little afterwards but I am not optimistic. 

Thank for the exchanges...to everyone...it has helped. Like someone said these are complex issues...relationships. I feel at the end of the day. My full engagement in the process will make me a better communicator, better man, better Dad, have more career fulfillment since obtaining inner strength and better skills will make me stronger. I wrote the list out on my qualities...I really like who I am. If she doesn't see it...tough. The nice guy syndrome really struck a chord. 

My question relates to when....a lot of people say "you'll know". Like I said with my background we are tenacious sons of *****es...we'll never surrender, so the act of throwing in the towel is very tough for me.

Again Merry Christmas.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Merry Christmas.

So much of what you are saying, I can relate. Patience is something I keep repeating to myself. I was the one who got us into counseling again, after her second call for Divorce. Mine comes from the school of tough as nails women also. Two of her sisters are terrible role models for relationships with men. I think she has been supported by some relationship breakers.

We spent time together last night. The one thing I came away with that on each contact, my radar is up to try and figure out which way she is leaning...Divorce or Reconcile. I regularly get mixed signals.

Limboland is very frustrating and I keep defaulting to patience, but if the MC does not move us forward, I will need to move on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

blakeeddie said:


> Sorry Accept. Here's the answers to your questions.
> 
> She has run her business for 5 years. I was supportive the whole way. No- I do not work in her business. I do well at a corporate gig- make 4x what she makes. However you did hit on something that she doesn't respect that. It has gotten very busy where she is constantly taking calls and emails from her clients. They have her on beck and call. Again that's where she is disconnected from me and the kids focused on her business. I have manned up in the last year and called her on this behavior.
> 
> ...


Counseling, unless it's short term behavioral counseling, is basically a place to talk, and talk and talk. A behavioral approach is much more successful.

I suggest marriage coaching instead. You both just need to know what to do differently/correctly and do it. The hours of talking to a counselor is nonsense. Take a look at the marriagebuildres.com site. Dr. Steve Harley offers phone coaching. His books are also very good in the way of marriage coaching… there are links to some of those books in my signature block.


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## blakeeddie (Dec 23, 2011)

here's an update.....it's done.

We talked. Nothing from counseling was resonating. She was shutdown from me. In her sessions she uncovered that the trauma she had as a kid makes her detach and wall up emotionally with people when she feels unsafe. Once shutdown she can't reengage. So we are separating. 

She can do this in the future with the kids too. So she agreed to do IC for this.

I can't change her and I will move on to accept this. We will attend counseling to work out effective co-parenting, since I am concerned her control issues will rear their ugly head.

Going through the process I am learning a lot about what I could do differently. I really liked everyone's input. 

I can handle it. I am proud of myself where I stood up for myself months ago finally.

happy New Year


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