# Wives are 7 times more likely to take back their cheating husband



## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

*I read that wives are 7 times more likely to take back their cheating husband than the other way around. 

If true, how do you explain it?*

This is my theory:

To be biologically successful you have to reproduce. Traits that caused people to have kids and raise them until they became fertile adults were selected for. 

Before DNA women knew who their biological kids were and men didn’t.

Women wanted a stable good provider to increase the chance that their children would survive. The reason that she didn’t want her mate to fool around with another woman is that he might give the OW scarce resources and thereby decrease the chance of her kid’s survival. 

The sex act itself with the OW wasn’t that important. Kids he had with the OW could starve.

Men wanted to use the fruits of their labor to ensure the survival of their own kids, not some OMs kids. That's why a faithful mate and the act of sex were important to men. 

The DNA of men who had no problem feeding some OM’s kid wasn’t passed along.

*In reconciliation:

The WH was offering his resources to ensure the survival of his wife’s kids (she knows they are hers). 

The WW was asking her husband to support kids that may not be his given her record.*


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You are correct, Graywolf, that is the biological underpinning of this variance. Men have potentially more to lose when a partner cheats than vice versa.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Which is why many men have the hardest time adjusting to reconciliation nature and 1000 years of evolution is screaming at them to find more trustworthy mate or bare the risk of providing for another man's offspring.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree. And maybe the biology is why I'm a huge proponent of no reconciliation and no forgiveness when the physical boundary is crossed.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Women weigh things out... They think logically.. "He's a good provider, he's the father of my children, the kids need a father, etc. etc. etc." They weigh things out and decide they are better off with him than without him..

Men, they don't weigh out anything. Their ego's just can't take it.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

hambone said:


> Women weigh things out... They think logically.. "He's a good provider, he's the father of my children, the kids need a father, etc. etc. etc." They weigh things out and decide they are better off with him than without him..
> 
> Men, they don't weigh out anything. Their ego's just can't take it.




I don't believe it's just ego I think its allot more complex then that


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## StatFrost (Feb 1, 2014)

Within the same logic you can conclude that females are biologically programmed to cheat but HIDE it. They get a good provider for their offspring than cheat on that mate to find the best DNA. Males do something opposite but do not hide it well.

One Out Of Ten People Weren't Fathered By The Man They Believe Is Dad - disinformation

We are animals and have to fight some of our more base line instincts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

hambone said:


> Women weigh things out... They think logically.. "He's a good provider, he's the father of my children, the kids need a father, etc. etc. etc." They weigh things out and decide they are better off with him than without him..
> 
> Men, they don't weigh out anything. *Their ego's just can't take it.*


:iagree:


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Their egos can't take it and it is a biological reaction that is programmed into the human brain. I am sure that all the women who take back their BH are partly more willing to forgive or accept because women put up with a lot, but they also remain pıssed off. I can imagine that there are many men get a lot less sex and affection from their wives after the cheating.

There may be some who get more because the wife wants to take back her mate from OW.

Someone wrote that someday Ben & Jerry's will sell a lube contraceptive that tastes like strawberries and Marilyn Monroe. In addition to preventing pregnancy it will kill STDs. And once this product comes on to the market. Infidelity will boom.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

hambone said:


> Women weigh things out... They think logically..
> 
> Men, they don't weigh out anything.


Uh . . . right. Women are logical and men are emotional. Gotcha.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

There is sociological reasons too. This is nothing new, it's been like this for thousands of years. Look at polygamy. Throughout history it's been men who had multiple wives, even in the Bible, David and Solomon had hundreds of wives, even Abraham had more than one wife. Though never condoned, it was always common, and it still happens today, watch reality TV. How many women can you name with multiple husbands? (At the same time) And how many famous, powerful men have had mistresses, either overtly or covertly? There are lots of reasons for this, too many to list, (the value of offspring and heirs has been one for multiple wives) but I think this sort of mindset still exists in some repect today.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

MSP said:


> Uh . . . right. Women are logical and men are emotional. Gotcha.


We're talking about the men that did not reconcile right? Not the ones that did reconcile.

The men that sought divorce did so because their ego's couldn't take it.

Perhaps, he men that did reconcile thought about it logically.

Got it now?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Their egos can't take it and it is a biological reaction that is programmed into the human brain. I am sure that all the women who take back their BH are partly more willing to forgive or accept because women put up with a lot, but they also remain pıssed off. I can imagine that there are many men get a lot less sex and affection from their wives after the cheating.
> 
> There may be some who get more because the wife wants to take back her mate from OW.


I don't know about pissed off, but I would be incredibly hurt if dh cheated on me. I am sure I would cry and cry. Everything I have believed about him would be rocked.

And I don't think he could live with himself. He would be so completely ashamed.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

hambone said:


> We're talking about the men that did not reconcile right? Not the ones that did reconcile.
> 
> The men that sought divorce did so because their ego's couldn't take it.
> 
> ...


I got what you meant. However, saying their egos couldn't take it is a subtle put-down for the guys who wouldn't reconcile and it has no basis in fact. There are other, quite logical, reasons for not accepting a WW back. In fact, it's often the men who take back their wives and rug-sweep the whole thing who are little balls of emotion and can't think straight. 

Painting a whole group of people as being proud because they divorce after infidelity is simply fallacious. This goes for men and women both.

Otherwise, what you're saying is that it is always more logically correct to accept a WS back.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MSP, why does it have to be a put down? Why can't it just be his opinion?


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

MSP said:


> I got what you meant. However, saying their egos couldn't take it is a subtle put-down for the guys who wouldn't reconcile and it has no basis in fact. There are other, quite logical, reasons for not accepting a WW back. In fact, it's often the men who take back their wives and rug-sweep the whole thing who are little balls of emotion and can't think straight.
> 
> Painting a whole group of people as being proud because they divorce after infidelity is simply fallacious. This goes for men and women both.
> 
> Otherwise, what you're saying is that it is always more logically correct to accept a WS back.


I'm talking primary factor... not secondary, tertiary, and quaternary factors. 

Do you have some hard data to support your position? Could you please link it?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

hambone said:


> I'm talking primary factor...


So, the primary factor in men not reconciling is because they are illogical? 

Let's just agree to disagree. I'm gonna go out and do stuff.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I think a big reason is that women want to keep their family together for the sake of their children. I bet the odds are higher a women takes back their husband if they have minor children than if they don't. She might also be a SAHM and if thee family breaks up she will have to go back to work and she wants to stay home with her children.

I'd be curious about how many of those marriages survive after she takes back her husband. Will he stay faithful? Can she put the affair in the past and not have resentment? Can she ever trust him again?


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

MSP said:


> So, the primary factor in men not reconciling is because they are illogical?
> 
> Let's just agree to disagree. I'm gonna go out and do stuff.


So, you don't have any data to support your position.

You are thinking in black and white terms..

What I'm saying is that the guy who chooses to divorce... he might being thinking logical but his ego wins. 

It is not as if he is totally incapable of thinking logically at all.


and Happily Married 25 is correct about women with small children... factoring those kids into their decision.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I think a big reason is that women want to keep their family together for the sake of their *children*. I bet the odds are higher a women takes back their husband if they have *minor children *than if they don't. She might also be a SAHM and if thee family breaks up she will have to go back to work and she wants to stay home with *her children*.


:iagree::iagree:

*Back to my original post. The wife wants help ensuring the survival of HER children.*


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Graywolf2 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> *Back to my original post. The wife wants help ensuring the survival of HER children.*


But my brother and I were adults when my Dad's affair was exposed, so why did my mom take him back?


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> But my brother and I were adults when my Dad's affair was exposed, so why did my mom take him back?


The poster said, "I bet the odds are higher a women takes back their husband if they have minor children than if they don't. "

Having children is a major consideration... not the only consideration. 

Do, ALL women with children keep their husband? Certainly not.. but I do agree with the poster that having small children certainly is a big factor in some women's thinking.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> But my brother and I were adults when my Dad's affair was exposed, so why did my mom take him back?





hambone said:


> The poster said, "I bet the odds are higher a women takes back their husband if they have minor children than if they don't. "
> Having children is a major consideration... not the only consideration.


:iagree:

Plus your brain doesn’t change just because your kids are grown. Instincts are hard wired. 

A husband would still feel territorial even if his postmenopausal or infertile wife had a PA.

A woman with grown children would still like the support of her husband as they grow old together.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hambone said:


> Women weigh things out... They think logically.. "He's a good provider, he's the father of my children, the kids need a father, etc. etc. etc." They weigh things out and decide they are better off with him than without him..
> 
> Men, they don't weigh out anything. Their ego's just can't take it.


Switch out ego with self worth and you may have something. A man without self worth has lost himself and is less than he was. Ego has a negative connotation whether it should or not.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> But my brother and I were adults when my Dad's affair was exposed, so why did my mom take him back?


She loved him? They had a history together?

I am sure it is hard to dissolve a marriage, especially a marriage of long duration.


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## sandals (May 8, 2014)

Aren't the likelihoods of EA vs. PA different by gender, too? I wonder if that has some bearing on the statistics. 

I'd like to think that as gender equalization catches up in many facets of life, that decisions based on older stereotypes are decreasing. I.e. a BH cares just as much about small children as a BW; a BW has just as much economic leverage as a BH. 

Eliminating those factors leaves social attitudes and type of offense (ea, pa, duration, etc.) central to the matter. Unfortunately from a social attitude perspective, women tend to be portrayed as the most likely targets of abuse. And I believe this feeds into many women's subconscious and we tend to process abuse (and yes, affairs are emotional abuse) with a different lens than men. I'm not saying it is exclusive to women, just predominant. 

It's a sad statement that is reflected in entertainment, politics, sports and many other places. Until we value ourselves more highly and believe in ourselves as being whole enough to provide for our family on our own, it will continue to be as it is.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

jld said:


> She loved him? They had a history together?
> 
> I am sure it is hard to dissolve a marriage, especially a marriage of long duration.


I'm sure my mom loved/loves my dad but she was also a SAHM/SAHW all her married life. Did she have a choice but to stay? Also, appearances are VERY important to her. The affair and any subsequent divorce would have been an embarrassment.

One thing that I think helped my mom is my dad immediately threw the OW under the bus, went no contact and attended counseling, even when the OW's mom called him with, "she checked herself into a mental hospital" crap.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Not this one.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

hambone said:


> So, you don't have any data to support your position.


I just have better things to do than compile a bunch of data in order to argue with someone on the internet. Besides, you'd be hard to convince with a rational argument, since apparently men are not logical. Wait, is that my ego talking? 

Seriously, I don't mind if not everyone agrees with all of my posts. I'm not upset. If you're really interested I'm sure you can research it yourself. Life goes on.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

MSP said:


> I just have better things to do than compile a bunch of data in order to argue with someone on the internet. Besides, you'd be hard to convince with a rational argument, since apparently men are not logical. Wait, is that my ego talking?
> 
> Seriously, I don't mind if not everyone agrees with all of my posts. I'm not upset. If you're really interested I'm sure you can research it yourself. Life goes on.


But see, you said you had "FACTS" and now you say you don't.

You're entitled to your own opinion. Not your own facts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm sure my mom loved/loves my dad but she was also a SAHM/SAHW all her married life. Did she have a choice but to stay? Also, appearances are VERY important to her. The affair and any subsequent divorce would have been an embarrassment.
> 
> One thing that I think helped my mom is my dad immediately threw the OW under the bus, went no contact and attended counseling, even *when the OW's mom called him with, "she checked herself into a mental hospital" crap.*


And this is the problem with adultery . . . _Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive . . ._


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## Jambri (Mar 19, 2013)

hambone said:


> Women weigh things out... They think logically.. "He's a good provider, he's the father of my children, the kids need a father, etc. etc. etc." They weigh things out and decide they are better off with him than without him..
> 
> Men, they don't weigh out anything. Their ego's just can't take it.


How utterly ridiculous


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

xakulax said:


> I don't believe it's just ego I think its allot more complex then that


Look at the threads around here when a man starts a thread about his wife cheating.

The responses are all about ego.. the responses are all about how is wife humiliated him. that he's beta and weak if he takes her back. He has to punish her and kick her out. It's all about ego.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I think a big reason is that women want to keep their family together for the sake of their children. I bet the odds are higher a women takes back their husband if they have minor children than if they don't. She might also be a SAHM and if thee family breaks up she will have to go back to work and she wants to stay home with her children.
> 
> I'd be curious about how many of those marriages survive after she takes back her husband. Will he stay faithful? Can she put the affair in the past and not have resentment? Can she ever trust him again?


I have read that some 90% of women take their husband back after cheating.

Only about 3% of men will stay with a wife who cheated.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> But my brother and I were adults when my Dad's affair was exposed, so why did my mom take him back?


Maybe because in the past, women were told to look the other way; that all mean cheat; that they have to work to win him back. After all, they were told; he would not have cheated if she had been a good wife.. thus putting the blame on her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Maybe because in the past, women were told to look the other way; that all mean cheat; that they have to work to win him back. After all, they were told; he would not have cheated if she had been a good wife.. thus putting the blame on her.


Isn't that just disgusting?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

hambone said:


> But see, you said you had "FACTS" and now you say you don't.


Goodness me, you like putting words in my mouth, don't you? I did not say that I do not have facts. I did say that I am not not wasting my time arguing with you. Although I seem to be anyway, so I'm going to let you have the last word without responding. Enjoy.


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

I cannot speak for women, but as for me (male) the thought of another man's seed being injected into my wife's body is a complete and utter deal breaker.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Look at the threads around here when a man starts a thread about his wife cheating.
> 
> The responses are all about ego.. the responses are all about how is wife humiliated him. that he's beta and weak if he takes her back. He has to punish her and kick her out. It's all about ego.


 

EleGirl ..I could not disagree more...If you do not not know my story...after i outed the OM to his BW..he came to my office and showed me pics of my wife doing sex acts with him and things she let him do to her she had told me for 22 years was SICK AND DISGUSTING...THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY EGO...this is about WWs LYING,DECEIVING AND BETRAYING THEIR BHS....

Throughout this forum and others with regard to infidelity..
I have NEVER SEEN ONE CASE OF A WW going to their BH and saying "We have a problem...or IVE met someone and we really need to talk...or i just WANT TO F&^K their brains out....NOT ONE

THEY LIE and DECEIVE...and when caught ...IM SO SORRY... and would keep doing it had they not been caught..But really CANNOT say why the would do such damage..

As a BH ...My EXW could do whatever she wanted and by GOD SHE DID ....We dont own one another ...

But we all must remember FORGIVENESS DOES NOT MEAN RECONCILIATION FOR THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING...

You can make me a SH*t SANDWICH but it does not mean im going to EAT it...

Im dining at another restaurant these days....


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Look at the threads around here when a man starts a thread about his wife cheating.
> 
> The responses are all about ego.. the responses are all about how is wife humiliated him. that he's beta and weak if he takes her back. He has to punish her and kick her out. It's all about ego.


Ego can be part of it .. but it's certainly not all of it. Perhaps a man who leaves a cheating wife could be doing so because ....

1) of his ego or self-respect? 
2) He concludes that she is likely to cheat again ... therefore, he's being logical after all?
3) He concludes her risky behavior is bad for his family unit (children) .. therefore, he's being logical again?

Just my 2 cents.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

badkarma2013 said:


> EleGirl ..I could not disagree more...If you do not not know my story...after i outed the OM to his BW..he came to my office and showed me pics of my wife doing sex acts with him and things she let him do to her she had told me for 22 years was SICK AND DISGUSTING...THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY EGO...this is about WWs LYING,DECEIVING AND BETRAYING THEIR BHS....
> 
> Throughout this forum and others with regard to infidelity..
> I have NEVER SEEN ONE CASE OF A WW going to their BH and saying "We have a problem...or IVE met someone and we really need to talk...or i just WANT TO F&^K their brains out....NOT ONE
> ...




:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Look at the threads around here when a man starts a thread about his wife cheating.
> 
> The responses are all about ego.. the responses are all about how is wife humiliated him. that he's beta and weak if he takes her back. He has to punish her and kick her out. It's all about ego.


As one who generally advocates 'punishment' and getting even, I'd say it's more about maintaining self respect and not being taken for a fool or letting the WS get away scott free, but I see where you are coming from; one could view that as ego. I will say that I give the same advice to BW's that I give to BH's and I give the same 'crap' to WH's that I do WW's. Do you think there is a double standard in the advice here?


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Graywolf2 said:


> *I read that wives are 7 times more likely to take back their cheating husband than the other way around.
> 
> If true, how do you explain it?*
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Thread topic, GW2. 

I think you're on the right track with the biological part of your theory but I think there's even more to it. I believe men are also hard wired to feel the way we do towards sex as well. In fact, in some ways, I think we view sex somewhat differently than females do.

This is a hard concept to explain so bear with me a bit. When a man chooses his mate and has sex with her, I believe there's an element of conquest and even ownership that goes along with it. Technically, we don't own anyone but centuries ago, men did own their wives and I believe that may still be the case in some cultures. Anyway, I think there is a feeling of ownership for men of the woman. I think it's more of a figurative ownership as in something territorial but I think it can be somewhat literal in terms of ownership as well. I think that goes to the biological aspect. When we enter our woman, she is surrendering to us in both a figurative and literal way. she is allowing someone inside of her body.

Again, this is hard to explain and I'm only speaking for myself, although I wouldn't be surprised if most men feel this way to some degree. I don't think women view things quite the same way as men do. For example, when I married my W, I found myself thinking that she belonged to me and was mine. Her body was mine and thoughts in that regard.

I don't think my W has ever thought that my body and more specifically, my "package" completely belonged to her. I don't think women go there mentally, although I certainly wouldn't generalize all women that way. I do think a lot of men, myself included, believe that their wife's genitalia belongs to them though and they place more importance on that. Again, I'm probably not doing it justice but I hope you get the idea. 

I just think we're hard wired that way. It's part of the instruction manual in our coding. I don't know if you call it male instinct or what but I know it's there. I think this is one of the reasons why infidelity is so difficult for men. It means that their W surrendered what was theirs to someone else. She allowed someone else to enter her and take what belonged to you. So it's not just betrayal but it's also stealing. 

There seems to be some precedence to this if you look back in history. In Old Testament Biblical times, former King David was being pursued by his son, Saul, who had become the new King. Saul took over the palace and commenced to have sex with all of his father's wives. 

When David regained the palace some time later, God told him to not sleep with his wives again for they had been defiled by another. David didn't divorce them but rather took care of them for the rest of their lives but never touched them again. So a man feeling the way he does may be partly biological, partly hard wired into our code and perhaps partly even somewhat learned behavior.

I really hope I was able to explain this in a way that may make some sense to women as I'm fairly certain most men either feel this way or at least understand the sentiment.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Mostlycontent said:


> Thanks for the Thread topic, GW2.
> 
> I think you're on the right track with the biological part of your theory but I think there's even more to it. I believe men are also hard wired to feel the way we do towards sex as well. In fact, in some ways, I think we view sex somewhat differently than females do.
> 
> ...



:iagree:


My human psychology professors would call this a slam dunk statement.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Look at the threads around here when a man starts a thread about his wife cheating.
> 
> The responses are all about ego.. the responses are all about how is wife humiliated him. that he's beta and weak if he takes her back. He has to punish her and kick her out. It's all about ego.



I'm sorry but no I think your generalizing a little bit here human psychology is extremely complex especially for each gender claiming ones actions or lack of action is based upon one aspect his or her psychology is illogical.



If saying if a woman's upset then she must be on her period is illogical then so to is the rationale that if a man cant take back his cheating wife it's because of his ego like I said before it's a lot more complex


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

hambone said:


> Women weigh things out... They think logically.. "He's a good provider, he's the father of my children, the kids need a father, etc. etc. etc." They weigh things out and decide they are better off with him than without him..
> 
> Men, they don't weigh out anything. Their ego's just can't take it.


Wonder if that's why Hillary stays with Billy Clinton after there was Jennifer Flowers, Sally Perdue, Monica Lewinski just to name the documented admitted ones and then feigned shock and dismay. there were probably a lot more


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I think the OP's post is true for the most part. My wife never seriously considered leaving when I stepped out. She really wasn't interested in the details either. Her primary concern was did I have feelings for someone else.

I do think there are differences between the genders in how they tend to stray. Perhaps this is a factor in it too? I was cheating on her but it wasn't like I was being distant and cold towards her during that time. I remained emotionally attached to my wife and still considered myself "in love" with her. My cheating was the only problem in the relationship. 

I also think logic played a part in it for her too. I know my wife loves me. But.... when we talk about that dark time she jokes about her thought process back then. She said to herself she could probably find a man as good looking as me *or* a man as successful as me, but she didn't think she would be able to land both in the same guy. She kids about this but I think she really factored stuff like that into her thought process. 

From what I've seen around me women are much more willing to forgive infidelity than men. I've also noticed that men with financial means and/or power tend to have a much longer leash for whatever reason when it comes to infidelity. Its about more than just the money. The status factors in too.


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## sandals (May 8, 2014)

ironman said:


> Ego can be part of it .. but it's certainly not all of it. Perhaps a man who leaves a cheating wife could be doing so because ....
> 
> 1) of his ego or self-respect?
> 2) He concludes that she is likely to cheat again ... therefore, he's being logical after all?
> ...


Women should value themselves enough to apply all these logic filters too. Most men I know are also as aware of the feelings of their children as women are. (Exceptions for both genders apply. )

I maintain that it's the image that society projects on to women. Perfect example, the Clintons as mentioned. "Stand by your man" held up as idealized love for women. That's not valuing yourself. That's sacrificing in a way that continues to damage women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> I think the OP's post is true for the most part. My wife never seriously considered leaving when I stepped out. She really wasn't interested in the details either. Her primary concern was did I have feelings for someone else.
> 
> I do think there are differences between the genders in how they tend to stray. Perhaps this is a factor in it too? I was cheating on her but it wasn't like I was being distant and cold towards her during that time. I remained emotionally attached to my wife and still considered myself "in love" with her. My cheating was the only problem in the relationship.
> 
> ...


I think you're right on the money. I think women are looking for something different in a relationship than men. Not always, mind you, but on average I think woman really place a lot of importance on security and stability and perhaps even status to some extent. And status could mean avoiding the loss of status that becoming a single mom may bring with it when compared to their current married situation.

While these things are somewhat important to men, we don't place the same value on them as women do IMO. When I'm referring to security, I'm not necessarily speaking of financial security although that would be of more paramount concern to a SAHW. I think woman value the "protector" element that a man provides as well whereas men don't really have that need at all. 

So if a husband strays, women may typically factor in a number of things that would never cross the mind of a BH. It's interesting for sure.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badkarma2013 said:


> EleGirl ..I could not disagree more...If you do not not know my story...after i outed the OM to his BW..he came to my office and showed me pics of my wife doing sex acts with him and things she let him do to her she had told me for 22 years was SICK AND DISGUSTING...THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY EGO...this is about WWs LYING,DECEIVING AND BETRAYING THEIR BHS....


Of course there are different situations. In my post I was not writing about you in particular but more about what I have generally seen on this thread. I was writing about what I have notice on TAM when most of the men here respond to BH’s. 

It’s not very common at all for an OM (or OW) do go to the BS’s office and show them pictures of sex between the affair partners. Few people could get over this… male and/or female.


badkarma2013 said:


> Throughout this forum and others with regard to infidelity..
> 
> I have NEVER SEEN ONE CASE OF A WW going to their BH and saying "We have a problem...or IVE met someone and we really need to talk...or i just WANT TO F&^K their brains out....NOT ONE
> 
> THEY LIE and DECEIVE...and when caught ...IM SO SORRY... and would keep doing it had they not been caught..But really CANNOT say why the would do such damage..


I have also never seen one case in which a man who was cheating went to his wife without being caught, confessed and said “we have a problem that needs to be fixed.” It happens so seldom, be the cheater male or female, that it’s not even in the cheater’s hand book.

I read thousands upon thousands of threads here and elsewhere. I’ve also experience infidelity in my own marriages. Guess what. Most cheaters do not come right out and tell their spouse that they are cheating. Most do not admit it when caught and then engage in trickle truth for the rest of their lives. That is the cheater’s script for both men and women who cheat.

Most cheaters only stop cheating when caught. Of course we don’t know if those who are not caught will eventually grow a conscience and stop cheating, because they are never caught.


badkarma2013 said:


> As a BH ...My EXW could do whatever she wanted and by GOD SHE DID ....We dont own one another ...


Did anyone say that your wife could not do whatever she wanted? I didn’t. By law she can do anything she wanted just as the rest of us can. 


badkarma2013 said:


> But we all must remember FORGIVENESS DOES NOT MEAN RECONCILIATION FOR THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING...


I did not say that forgiveness means reconciliation. Why are you yelling at me? I did nothing to you.


badkarma2013 said:


> You can make me a SH*t SANDWICH but it does not mean im going to EAT it...


Again why are you yelling at me? I have not done anything to you. 


badkarma2013 said:


> Im dining at another restaurant these days....


It’s your choice. You too can do whatever you want.

I know many people who did recover their marriage after infidelity. For the most part they say that they are happy that the worked on their marriage and have a better marriage now than before. I’ve experienced this as well.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ironman said:


> Ego can be part of it .. but it's certainly not all of it. Perhaps a man who leaves a cheating wife could be doing so because ....
> 
> 1)	of his ego or self-respect?


Where does self-respect turn into just raw ego? I’m not sure. Taking things case by case is probably the best way to do it.

If women are 7 times more likely to stay with their WH and work on recover, does it then hold by your way thinking that most women lack self-respect? Or could it be that women tend to hold more than just sexual fidelity in marriage? (just thinking out loud)


ironman said:


> 2) He concludes that she is likely to cheat again ... therefore, he's being logical after all?


Everything I’ve read about people who cheat is that few people cheat again. Cheating is usually a response to something going haywire in the cheater’s life. Once the issues are addressed they do not repeat. 

Another interesting thing is that over 50% of people who originally the BS end up having affairs (we call those revenge affairs.) So it is more likely that the BS will end up cheating than it is that the WS will cheat again.


ironman said:


> 3) He concludes her risky behavior is bad for his family unit (children) .. therefore, he's being logical again?


Getting a divorce does not end any issues that are cause to the children by the infidelity. They still have a mother who cheated (in this case it’s a mother, in other cases it’s the father). Their mother who cheated (or father who cheated) will still be in their lives. Now a family breakup is added to the trauma.

A spouse can cheat and both spouses can work hard to never let the children know and it minimize the trauma from it. But once a family breaks up there is no protecting the children from the breakup of their FOO. I’m not saying that people should not break up. But breaking up as an attempt to protect the children is a false sense. The breakup in and of itself does more harm and affects most children for a lifetime.


ironman said:


> Just my 2 cents.


We all have a few pennies lying around.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> As one who generally advocates 'punishment' and getting even, I'd say it's more about maintaining self respect and not being taken for a fool or letting the WS get away scott free, but I see where you are coming from; one could view that as ego. I will say that I give the same advice to BW's that I give to BH's and I give the same 'crap' to WH's that I do WW's. Do you think there is a double standard in the advice here?


While some of the posters (perhaps you as are one) are even handed with both BH and BW, I have observed that most are not. On TAM more women are give advice to try to find a way to work it out. 

It would be interesting to actually go through the threads and take a count of what kind of input is given. Maybe some day when I have nothing to do I might tackle that.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

hambone said:


> Women weigh things out... They think logically.. "He's a good provider, he's the father of my children, the kids need a father, etc. etc. etc." They weigh things out and decide they are better off with him than without him..
> 
> Men, they don't weigh out anything. Their ego's just can't take it.


Couldn't be more wrong. Men have self respect, that's why they won't tolerate bull**** like that. 

Women will take a cheater back because they're scared of the future. Don't try to twist things.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

xakulax said:


> I'm sorry but no I think your generalizing a little bit here human psychology is extremely complex especially for each gender claiming ones actions or lack of action is based upon one aspect his or her psychology is illogical.
> 
> 
> 
> If saying if a woman's upset then she must be on her period is illogical then so to is the rationale that if a man cant take back his cheating wife it's because of his ego like I said before it's a lot more complex


Then why do few men take back cheating wives while most women will take back cheating husbands?

Is it because as someone suggested above that men feel like the own their wife... and then when someone else plays with the toy they own they throw away the toy? 

What would you call that?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phoenix_ said:


> Couldn't be more wrong. Men have self respect, that's why they won't tolerate bull**** like that.
> 
> Women will take a cheater back because they're scared of the future. Don't try to twist things.


Ah, so all women are scared of the future? 


I guess it could not have anything to do with women apparently believing that their husbands are of significant value (emotionally) to them and their children.

Maybe you could actually ask some women why they reconciled.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

From EleGirl..I did not say that forgiveness means reconciliation. Why are you yelling at me? I did nothing to you.



Im yelling at you because you assume And Insinuated that EGO...is the reason that most BHs do not R with their WWs...

Nothing is farther from the TRUTH.....

EleGirl...I really believe its a Gender thing...I too have read thousands of threads and post and the common thread is that when we (men) marry alot of us put our wives on a pedestal
and when infidelity happens and we are lied to, deceived and when the the betrayal comes to light our vision is shattered...along with our SELF ESTEEM AND SELF WORTH....

WE cannot accept the thought our WW let OM do things with her we were denied for years...but it happened......

It is self survival...us filing for D...it seems most BWs want to know if the WH loved the OW....BHs want to know what kind of sex she did with OM and was he Better..etc...WE are at that point CRUSHED not ego ,..Our value as a person is LOST..

I agree that most WHs do not tell their BWs about any problems or ask for help
in the marriage....THEY are a POS as well and just as guilty..

I once told my MC..."your mantra is ..No one can make you happy..happiness comes from within....I told her i agree..BUT i can da*m sure make someone unhappy very quickly...she had no answer.."


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Then why do few men take back cheating wives while most women will take back cheating husbands?
> 
> Is it because as someone suggested above that men feel like the own their wife... and then when someone else plays with the toy they own they throw away the toy?
> 
> What would you call that?



Again your generalizing but ill bite.


I posted this in a thread titled Does sex create an emotional bond and I believe it plays a part in the male psychology when dealing with infidelity again this is just my theory


I think the male brain tends to be more hierarchical on how we determine a emotional connection via sex. At the lowest level of this hierarchy is the one night stand with very little to no real emotional connection its all about the physical excitement of the heat of the moment with no intention of a lasting relationship.Next you have the friends with benefits where there is some history and common interests but not enough for the next level of the hierarchy the FWB is all about sex with some comforts but with no possibility of a relationship similar to a ONS but with slightly more of an emotional connection.




At the budding romance level is where men start equating sex with an emotional connection it is at this point where someone we are starting to develop strong feeling for the sex become more of demonstrating are affection then just matter of self gratification these feeling become even stronger at the next and last level of the hierarchy at this point all sexual activity become a demonstration of affection, gratification, and emotional connection with there SO.At the top of this hierarchy the wife is prominent in the male psychology she is the one woman who has forsaken all other men but him and for that male she holds value above all other woman not value in terms as good to be traded not value terms of ownership but a value in terms of emotional,psychological, and physical security knowing that she truly loves you wants you no one else for her emotional,psychological, and physical needs but you this is very powerful in males psychology.



1. Wife


2. Budding romance/ girl friend / fiance 


3. Friend benefits


4. One night stand




For the male psychology infidelity destroys all of these securities they can no longer be certain they are the primary partner in there lovers hart or minds. The affair destabilize the security which is fundamental In how he views his wife He can no longer know for certain the security of relationship the affair destroys his sens of emotional,psychological, and physical security for the male psychology equate sex as an expression of love for his partner therefore if his partner has sex with another man then in essence he's feels no longer valued as her primary source of emotional,psychological, and physical needs.


This is the reason why many betrayed husbands will say they feel that something is different in a relationship that something is missing what's missing is that sense of security/value knowing that you are the one she wants and no other. 





EleGirl I respect your opinion but you can not generalizing a complex subject like human psychology especially when you add gender in the mix.



PS: Please note this is a working theory i'm just going off my old notes from my human psychology class


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badkarma2013 said:


> From EleGirl..I did not say that forgiveness means reconciliation. Why are you yelling at me? I did nothing to you.
> 
> Im yelling at you because you assume And Insinuated that EGO...is the reason that most BHs do not R with their WWs...


It’s my opinion from what I’ve seen here on TAM especially, that yes, ego is a huge part of why men are 7 times less likely to consider reconciliation if they find out that their wife cheated. 

The last time I checked I am entitled to whatever opinion I have just as you are entitled to yours. Do you normally yell at people who have an opinion different from your? 




badkarma2013 said:


> Nothing is farther from the TRUTH.....


I could find a lot of evidence to support what I’m saying right here on TAM.


badkarma2013 said:


> EleGirl...I really believe its a Gender thing...I too have read thousands of threads and post and the common thread is that when we (men) marry alot of us put our wives on a pedestal


Yes and most women hold their husbands to high esteem… putting them on a pedestal as well. That is what both men and women do when they are in love with someone.


badkarma2013 said:


> and when infidelity happens and we are lied to, deceived and when the the betrayal comes to light our vision is shattered...along with our SELF ESTEEM AND SELF WORTH....


Do you really think that a woman’s self-esteem and worth are any less shattered by the betrayal, deceit, etc. that occurs when their husband cheats on them? You seem to think that it’s worse for men then for women. Why is that?



badkarma2013 said:


> WE cannot accept the thought our WW let OM do things with her we were denied for years...but it happened......


Oh, so your self-esteem/worth are hurt not because she might love the OM but because he got to do things with her body that you did not get to do? Is that what you are saying?

Are you aware that not all affairs include sex that is wilder then the sex with a spouse? Some affairs are far more emotional and less sexual. Some women will not wilder things with any man.




badkarma2013 said:


> It is self survival...us filing for D...it seems most BWs want to know if the WH loved the OW....BHs want to know what kind of sex she did with OM and was he Better..etc...WE are at that point CRUSHED not ego ,..Our value as a person is LOST..


You seem to not know the meaning of “ego”. Let me help you out here:
1.	“a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.

synonyms:	self-esteem, self-importance, self-worth, self-respect, self-image, self-confidence 

“

What you are saying is that your ego (your sense of self-worth” is crushed). Apparently you agree with me 100%.
By the way, it’s a bunch of crap that women are not concerned about their husband having sex with another woman and what he does with her. When a man denies his wife fulfilling sex but gives it to another woman you better believe that it hurts her self-esteem. 

I don’t know where you get the idea that women only worry about love and men about sex. There are lots of threads on here written by men whose wife says that she loves another man and he’s going nuts about the fact that she loves someone else. It might all be about sex positions to you, but apparently many men have much deeper appreciation for love and things emotional.


badkarma2013 said:


> I agree that most WHs do not tell their BWs about any problems or ask for help in the marriage....THEY are a POS as well and just as guilty..


So why are you making it all about women being horrible? Why do you seem to think that men are hurt much more by infidelity than women are?


badkarma2013 said:


> I once told my MC..."your mantra is ..No one can make you happy..happiness comes from within....I told her i agree..BUT i can da*m sure make someone unhappy very quickly...she had no answer.."


Ohhh, that really makes you a big man doesn’t it?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

xakulax said:


> Again your generalizing but ill bite.


This thread is about a generality. Remember, women are 7 times more likely to agree to recovery after they find out that their husband has cheated. That’s a generality. :scratchhead:

I’m not quite sure why some people what to make this thread only about their own personal experience. :scratchhead:


xakulax said:


> I posted this in a thread titled Does sex create an emotional bond and I believe it plays a part in the male psychology when dealing with infidelity again this is just my theory





xakulax said:


> I think the male brain tends to be more hierarchical on how we determine a emotional connection via sex. At the lowest level of this hierarchy is the one night stand with very little to no real emotional connection its all about the physical excitement of the heat of the moment with no intention of a lasting relationship. Next you have the friends with benefits where there is some history and common interests but not enough for the next level of the hierarchy the FWB is all about sex with some comforts but with no possibility of a relationship similar to a ONS but with slightly more of an emotional connection.


Did you know that women do the same thing with sex? Now it’s true that society has beaten it into the heads of many women that they have to stifle their sexual desires, so some hold back. In some societies they have to because they are stoned to death if they do not. Being stoned to death is a big deterrent. Do you know what such a big deterrent is needed? Because it is not human biology for women to be puritanical when it comes to sex… that’s something that society has created.

For women there is sex for just the excitement, like one night stands.

There are the budding romances, boyfriends, fiancés.

There are the friends with benefits, 

Then there is the husband. 

Who exactly do you think all you men are having sex with at all these ‘levels’ that you mention? Since men are having no problem finding plenty of women for all of these levels that you define, it's pretty obvious that women are working with very similar mind sets in these levels. 

When you publish the paper, back it up with tons are really scientific data we’ll have something to talk about. 



xakulax said:


> For the male psychology infidelity destroys all of these securities they can no longer be certain they are the primary partner in there lovers hart or minds.


For the female psychology” infidelity destroys all of these securities they can no longer be certain they are the primary partner in there lovers [heart] or minds.” Do you really think that this is any different for men and women? You seem to think that infidelity hurts men more. It does not.
The difference is not the level of hurt, the level of assault on a man/woman’s “ego”/self-worth, etc. The different is how men vs women handle the assault we call infidelity.


xakulax said:


> The affair destabilize the security which is fundamental In how he views his wife He can no longer know for certain the security of relationship the affair destroys his sens of emotional, psychological, and physical security for the male psychology equate sex as an expression of love for his partner therefore if his partner has sex with another man then in essence he's feels no longer valued as her primary source of emotional, psychological, and physical needs.


I could rewrite the entire paragraph above and just change the male pronouns to female pronouns. As I’ve said before, it’s no different at all for women. Women feel exactly like this when they are cheated on. 



xakulax said:


> This is the reason why many betrayed husbands will say they feel that something is different in a relationship that something is missing what's missing is that sense of security/value knowing that you are the one she wants and no other.


Again, women who are cheated on experience exactly the same thing.




xakulax said:


> EleGirl I respect your opinion but you can not generalizing a complex subject like human psychology especially when you add gender in the mix.


You are generalizing. Not only are you generalizing, but you seem to think that the pain/assault/etc. when a woman cheats to worse for a man then it is when a woman is cheated on.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

intheory said:


> I *think* the son's name was Absalom. [King]Saul was David's father-in-law.
> 
> Just for the record


You're exactly right. Thank you for the clarification. FWIW, King Saul also tried to kill David as well. Perhaps that's where I got my wires crossed. Poor guy, he had it coming and going at both ends with guys trying to "out" him.


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

Apologise in advance for the language but when I was in my early 20s, I heard an explanation about gender difference and infidelity from a couple who were in their 40s back then... 

A guy said to his wife: When I have an affair, it means that "we" fu** "them". If you have an affair, "they" fu** "us".

For me it's pretty much a basic explanation why men can rarely take their WWs back.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Elegirl I at no point in my post did I generalized or assumed that men suffer more than women and if anything you're post further proves the complexity of the issue I can sense by the tone of your post that you are not going to budge from your position and in all honesty I had no intentions of change you from your position merely to point out how complex this is an issue and not to view it as a generalization with that being said I have no interest or desire in continuing this conversation. 



Again I respect your opinion


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

FROM EleGirl.....I could rewrite the entire paragraph above and just change the male pronouns to female pronouns. As I’ve said before, it’s no different at all for women. Women feel exactly like this when they are cheated on. 

I agree...the devastation caused by infidelity is a better pill for anyone to swallow...(if thats possiable)...BH or BW...

Again i think it is a gender thing...or this thread would not exist..

I TRULY believe...women have the capacity and DO view Infidelity much differently than men...I also agree that a WW can have a deep Emotional connection with OM with little or NO sex and that sometimes is much worse than PA...( TO OVERCOME)..

I think ..EleGirl...pls as woman tell me your opinion...
Not all but most married women who do have affairs seem to have a deep emotional connection with the OM and if its a PA..its seems to be that they give sex to keep it going and the OM keeps giving whatever...support,bolstering their self worth..fill in the blank..

I think as BHs on a gut level KNOW when your wife has had an A...they have given ALL of themselves to the OM..not just sex ..ALL of themselves....

I believe that is some of the differernce...again we are all speaking in general terms

You may call it EGO..Arrogance..or use any term you wish...i think Women understand ..Ele again we are speaking in general terms so chill ok..lol.....that a WH can have sex and it doesnt mean (emotionaly) anything...yes we are shallow

Most WWs when they have a PA..its on all levels they give everything to the OM..ie THEMSELVES...and its not taken lightly

I thinks as men ..you are right we simply cannot handle knowing that our WWs gave it ALL to someone else...
whatever the type of A...

We inherantly know we have lost you...to someone else..I also believe be it WW or WH..the lies and deceit and the horriable feeling of betryal is the worst feeling of all...knowing that your marriage has been a lie since the A started..


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

NotLikeYou said:


> So what happens when a wife cheats? Well, she has found someone whom she, by default, finds more "alpha" than the guy she is cheating on. So even if you're alpha, after you've been cheated on, you aren't the most alpha guy in your wife's life. She proved that, at least to herself, when she took the other man into her.
> 
> Alpha traits include demanding loyalty from their women, while not necessarily giving it in return. They can get away with dating multiple women because they're so rich / handsome / charismatic. Standard girl dream is to "tame" and alpha, and get him to commit to her and settle down.
> 
> ...


That's the quote from another thread but it's quite illustrative...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> I think as BHs on a gut level KNOW when your wife has had an A...they have given ALL of themselves to the OM..not just sex ..ALL of themselves....
> 
> I believe that is some of the differernce...again we are all speaking in general terms
> 
> ...


In "general" I can't disagree with this. There are of course variances, but all one needs to do is look at the threads in CWI. To my eyes in the vast majority of them when the wife is cheating there really isn't room in her heart for her husband anymore. He spends months trying to figure out why her feelings have changed. When she gets caught there is anger towards the husband for ruining things with the OM.

On the flipside when a man gets caught or exposed. The first thing he usually does is toss the OW under a bus. A lot of times the OW is shocked at just how quickly a man can turn cold when he is about to lose his family. I'm not a fan of exposure, but I think it works much better on men than it does on woman. JMO though.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> In "general" I can't disagree with this. There are of course variances, but all one needs to do is look at the threads in CWI. To my eyes in the vast majority of them when the wife is cheating there really isn't room in her heart for her husband anymore. He spends months trying to figure out why her feelings have changed. When she gets caught there is anger towards the husband for ruining things with the OM.
> 
> On the flipside when a man gets caught or exposed. The first thing he usually does is toss the OW under a bus. A lot of times the OW is shocked at just how quickly a man can turn cold when he is about to lose his family. I'm not a fan of exposure, but I think it works much better on men than it does on woman. JMO though.




I'm sorry but I think exposure is necessary in both cases male or female quite frankly if a spouse is in the fog and unwilling to leave their affair partner how else can a betrayed spouse shock them into reality and from what I've seen on this site and many others exposure has proved to be successful element in ending the affair not exposing the affair in most cases only courses affair going underground


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

hambone said:


> We're talking about the men that did not reconcile right? Not the ones that did reconcile.
> 
> The men that sought divorce did so because their ego's couldn't take it.
> 
> ...


*
*


Nope please explain further. My wife cheated and lied. She broke her vows and promises. She hurt our children and lied to them. She is not a good person. To stay in a marriage like that would be a prison sentence to me and harmful to my girls to see that as an example of what a wife should be to a marriage. Had nothing to do with ego. If anything it's is more ego damaging to come out to the world and tell everyone as a man that your wife cheated on you. IF it was simply a matter of stuffing my ego and swallowing my pride I would have done so for the sake of my family. But once trust is gone it can't come back for some people.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

xakulax said:


> I'm sorry but I think exposure is necessary in both cases male or female quite frankly if a spouse is in the fog and unwilling to leave their affair partner how else can a betrayed spouse shock them into reality and from what I've seen on this site and many others exposure has proved to be successful element in ending the affair not exposing the affair in most cases only courses affair going underground


No need to apologize. I know my stance on exposure is unpopular on here. I feel this way about exposure because I don't believe in the fog. I think the WS is either in love or in the process of falling in love with the OM/OW. I think fog just sounds better than acknowledging that your spouse is in love with someone else. I know that sounds harsh. But think about it, aren't those foggy feelings the same ones that spouses experience for one another when they first started dating? 

Now this is just my opinion but if confronting my spouse isn't enough to bring her back, then I don't want her. At that point she clearly has made up her mind that the other guy is the better man. If I destroy that new relationship by exposing it, I've forced her to come back to me by eliminating the competition. For me it is important that she would come back willingly.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badkarma2013 said:


> I TRULY believe...women have the capacity and DO view Infidelity much differently than men...


This is obviously true. That’s why there is such a huge difference the likelihood of a man taking his wife back vs a woman taking her husband back.



> I also agree that a WW can have a deep Emotional connection with OM with little or NO sex and that sometimes is much worse than PA...( TO OVERCOME)..


Yet, when arguing here about why men don’t take a cheating wife back, the men are focused on the sex and what sex acts the wife did with the OM.


badkarma2013 said:


> I think ..EleGirl...pls as woman tell me your opinion...
> Not all but most married women who do have affairs seem to have a deep emotional connection with the OM and if its a PA..its seems to be that they give sex to keep it going and the OM keeps giving whatever...support,bolstering their self worth..fill in the blank..


I know that it’s very popular to say that women get more emotionally involved in an affair then men do. However, there is a large percentage of stories here on TAM in which the cheating husband is so emotionally attached to the OW that he will not give up the affair.

No women do not give up sex in exchange to whatever the OM has to give…like support. Women have sex because they like sex and because it’s a strongest form of emotional intimacy. The way you stated that it sounds like you think that for women, sex is a currency to get what we want. 

Men, like women, have affairs for many reasons. Some women just do it for the sex, just like some men just do it for the sex. 



badkarma2013 said:


> I think as BHs on a gut level KNOW when your wife has had an A...they have given ALL of themselves to the OM..not just sex ..ALL of themselves....
> I believe that is some of the differernce...again we are all speaking in general terms


Not every affair is an exit affair. Assuming that most people who have affairs are not serial cheaters and just broken people from the get go… Men and women both get so tied up in affairs that they become very attached to the affair partner. 

In most cases, if a man gives his wife a chance, works with her to repair the damage and to fix the marriage recovery is very possible. I mean a very good and strong recovery. But men generally do not give that chance. 


badkarma2013 said:


> You may call it EGO..Arrogance..or use any term you wish...i think Women understand ..Ele again we are speaking in general terms so chill ok..lol.....that a WH can have sex and it doesnt mean (emotionaly) anything...yes we are shallow


Ego is not arrogance. 
Chill? You were the on yelling.. remember? 

Saying that men an have sex and it means nothing (emotionally) is nothing more then making excuses for men who cheat. This is exactly what men do. It’s ok for them to cheat but not ok for their wife to cheat. One thing that I have learned is that a man can cheat their entire marriage and they expect their wife to stay with them because all that cheating means nothing. But the first time their wife cheats she’s a ****, *****, etc etc and he dumps her.

Yes and WW’s can have sex and it means nothing as well. I’m not sure why you think men have such a monopoly on this. After all, who are all those cheating men having sex with?? Oh yea, women.

The more I hear men taking about how they cannot stay with a woman who has cheated, the more I think that women should take the same tactic. 


badkarma2013 said:


> Most WWs when they have a PA..its on all levels they give everything to the OM..ie THEMSELVES...and its not taken lightly


That is your imagination. Women and men are both quite capable of having affairs that just fill in where their spouse is not meeting their needs. They both also often like recreational sex


badkarma2013 said:


> I thinks as men ..you are right we simply cannot handle knowing that our WWs gave it ALL to someone else...
> whatever the type of A...


Would it matter to you if your wife just had casual sex and did nto give her all to someone else? I doubt it.


badkarma2013 said:


> We inherantly know we have lost you...to someone else..I also believe be it WW or WH..the lies and deceit and the horriable feeling of betryal is the worst feeling of all...knowing that your marriage has been a lie since the A started..


I view infidelity (by non-serial cheaters) as a form of emotional breakdown. It’s something that just about anybody can do given the right circumstances. And it’s something that people can come back from and heal their marriage. I’ve seen so many people do this (yes even men who took their wives back) that I believe it’s possible. Actually recovery and a better marriage is the most likely outcome if both spouses are willing to work on the marriage.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Saying that men can have sex and it means nothing (emotionally) is nothing more then making excuses for men who cheat. This is exactly what men do. It’s ok for them to cheat but not ok for their wife to cheat. One thing that I have learned is that a man can cheat their entire marriage and they expect their wife to stay with them because all that cheating means nothing. But the first time their wife cheats she’s a ****, *****, etc etc and he dumps her.


I agree that men who serially cheat minimize it, but I wouldn't necessarily say that these men expect their wives to stay though. The choice is really up to the wife at the end of the day. We can't force them to stay. I'm really happy my wife stayed, but I certainly didn't feel that reconciliation was something I was entitled to. 

Regarding the double standard aspect of it, no argument from me there.


----------



## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Nope please explain further. My wife cheated and lied. She broke her vows and promises. She hurt our children and lied to them. She is not a good person. To stay in a marriage like that would be a prison sentence to me and harmful to my girls to see that as an example of what a wife should be to a marriage. Had nothing to do with ego. If anything it's is more ego damaging to come out to the world and tell everyone as a man that your wife cheated on you. IF it was simply a matter of stuffing my ego and swallowing my pride I would have done so for the sake of my family. But once trust is gone it can't come back for some people.


Women deal with all those issues and make a difference choice..

The question is... what drives men to divorce as opposed to what drives women to reconcile?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

hambone said:


> The question is... what drives men to divorce as opposed to what drives women to reconcile?


:iagree:

It does us no good to point out that there are men and women outside of the median group that behave differently. I think we all know that plenty of exceptions exist to every gender generalization. I'm honestly interested in opinions on why "most" people tend to behave according to these generalizations.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Ah, so all women are scared of the future?
> 
> 
> I guess it could not have anything to do with women apparently believing that their husbands are of significant value (emotionally) to them and their children.
> ...


Not all women, but many women who take their husbands back are afraid of being alone, with children or not. 

It's really not a mystery that men can handle being single much more comfortably than women.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

dfhzhen said:


> Men, they don't weigh out anything. Their ego's just can't take it.


It's funny when people think women don't have huge egos. Who are the ones that need to be complimented all the time and get uncontrollably jealous? 

I still don't see how any person can take back a cheater. You're actually willing to spend your life without someone who intentionally snuck around behind your back to have sex with someone else?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

hambone said:


> Women deal with all those issues and make a difference choice..
> 
> The question is... what drives men to divorce as opposed to what drives women to reconcile?


I wouldn't say it drives them to reconcile since women somewhere near 70-80% of the time in the US file for the divorce.

Why Women and MEN reconcile is likely very individualized. Religious reasons, social pressure or family pressure to keep family together, low self esteem could be a large part .

And I have no problem with people who decided to reconcile and stay together. For me Was a done thing the moment she broke her vows and promise to me. Was no ego in that decision. I couldn't have spent the rest of my life with someone I don't respect and could never trust again


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

phoenix_ said:


> It's funny when people think women don't have huge egos. Who are the ones that need to be complimented all the time and get uncontrollably jealous?
> 
> I still don't see how any person can take back a cheater. You're actually willing to spend your life without someone who intentionally snuck around behind your back to have sex with someone else?


THANK YOU. Huge ego's and daring a man to even have a glimmer of one. Some of them think they are gods.


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

Rushwater said:


> I cannot speak for women, but as for me (male) the thought of another man's seed being injected into my wife's body is a complete and utter deal breaker.


I agree I don't want my partner inside anyone else.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> Women deal with all those issues and make a difference choice..
> 
> The question is... what drives men to divorce as opposed to what drives women to reconcile?


I think that is a legitimate question. But when you throw around a loaded term like "ego" you can't be surprised at the reaction you get.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phoenix_ said:


> Not all women, but many women who take their husbands back are afraid of being alone, with children or not.
> 
> It's really not a mystery that men can handle being single much more comfortably than women.


Let's see.. most divorces are apparently filed by women... someone brought that up on this thread. Does not sound to me like most women are afraid of being alone.


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## razgor (May 8, 2014)

On top of the biological reasons, I would also add that a wandering wife carries a much heavier social stigma. Society has a long tradition of classifying a cheating wife as less then desireable. 

And a man that takes back a wandering wife loses his manhood and standing in society. There are even words made to describe a man that does this. Not so for a woman that takes back a wandering husband. Heck, just look at this forum and see you posts about a man being a "beta" for taking back his cheating wife. You do not have that when a woman takes back a man.

It carries a very heavy social stigma for a man to take her back. Sure it impacts a mans ego. But it is not just how a man views himself, but also how society(his friends and family) views a man that takes back a wandering wife.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Let's see.. most divorces are apparently filed by women... someone brought that up on this thread. Does not sound to me like most women are afraid of being alone.


Who says they'll be alone after a divorce?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phoenix_ said:


> Assuming it's not because of cheating then who says they'll be alone after a divorce?


Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself?

Oh good grief, you are really trying hard to prove that women are afraid to be alone.

When someone gets a divorce, there is no guarantee that they will ever find anyone else.

I'm a woman. I'm not afraid to be on my own. Never have been afraid. If anything marriage has been what has messed up my life the most. Getting married has been the stupidest thing I ever did.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I'm a woman. I'm not afraid to be on my own. Never have been afraid. If anything marriage has been what has messed up my life the most. Getting married has been the stupidest thing I ever did.



If I my ask if you dislike being married so much then why not opt out


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

xakulax said:


> If I my ask if you dislike being married so much then why not opt out


I did opt out. It's called divorce.

I did not like being married for very good reasons.

My first husband cheated on me though most of the marriage. I supported him through medical school and he repaid me with physical and emotional abuse, cheating on me for years (did not find this out until after I had filed for divorce), he stole large sums or $$ from me and hid it, and he refused sex for 7 years. 

A few years after that divorce I remarried a guy who had custody of his 2 kids (10 & 12). Two years after we married I caught him cheating. We worked on reconciliation and all was going very well. Then he lost his job and spent the next few years playing computer games and surfing the internet. He just said he could not find a job. I ended up raising his children. I was not about to kick children out on the street, so I waited until they got out of high school and were on their own. Then I divorced him... not for the cheating by for the fact that we had no relationship left due to his withdrawal into the cyber world.

I'm not opposed to marriage. Some people apparently have very good, rewarding marriages.

However, I apparently have a broken mate picker. I would have been better off had I never married. I have done better on my own then I ever did in a marriage.

Everyone's story is different.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think that is a legitimate question. But when you throw around a loaded term like "ego" you can't be surprised at the reaction you get.


Synonyms for ego...

pride, pridefulness, self-esteem


Looks like the male ego wont allow some men to accept that fact that it is ego that drives men to divorce rather than reconcile.

It wasn't meant as a derogatory term. To deny that men have an ego is to not live in the real world.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Too bad this thread turned into a war of the sexes.

It's a legitimate topic that bears serious discussion but generalizations about sexes viewed through our own prejudice's without social science evidence is not advancing the discussion IMHO and more often than not bullsh!t.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I did opt out. It's called divorce.
> 
> I did not like being married for very good reasons.
> 
> ...




Wow both your husbands where sorry excuses of human beings I respect what you did with husband number two kids giving them time to mature and become more independent.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> Too bad this thread turned into a war of the sexes.
> 
> It's a legitimate topic that bears serious discussion but generalizations about sexes viewed through our own prejudice's without social science evidence is not advancing the discussion IMHO and more often than not bullsh!t.




:iagree:


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> Synonyms for ego...
> 
> pride, pridefulness, self-esteem
> 
> ...


It is a loaded term, particularly when used to contrast men's behavior with that of women. In the context of relationships, it is used far too often to shame men. You insistence on using that term, rather than one of the synonyms you list, in the face of the responses you got certainly could lead one to wonder if it was in fact meant in a derogatory manner.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

I think whether you’re a man or a woman the so called ego will be hurt among so many other things. It seems everyone is trying to defend their sex here and bottom line is each situation is different. We all hurt the same way, not one gender is better or hurts more when someone cheats.

Me: Woman, Family Provider ( husband hasn’t worked in 7 years) Cheated to have sex only, had been in a sexless marriage for years. Nothing traditional about my marriage

My Husband took me back after cheating on him, Anyone who knows my husband knows this goes against his very core, he has removed people from his life for talking to him in a disrespectful tone, (including family.)

This is not to say the road to recovery has not been hard as hell. My husband told me that he took me back, because though I did an awful thing and broke his trust among so many other things, he knows me and he believes I'm worth another chance.

He said, "you have been such a wonderful wife, that I was there for him through so many difficult times and showed him support and no judgment . I earned a chance to prove to be a better wife.

If I think back to the things he has done, most woman would have left, I do believe woman tolerate more from our husbands, I grew up with the understanding that men will be men and woman just need to learn to tolerate the man’s choices, we are told to look pretty and keep your mouth shut. Im not saying that’s right it’s just the way it was.

My husband and I just had a semi argument over something I read on hear and it pisses me off that after everything we have been through that he still thinks like a man from the 1800’s.

He says, “ When a Men cheats it is different than when a woman cheats. 
Men are just out to have meaningless sex and woman should be able to get over that as a man has no intention of leaving his wife, he is just fulfilling a need.

Whereas a woman can’t do that, they have feelings and they can only make love and they are not able to distinguish the difference between love and sex and that there is no way for them to just have sex like a man.

You all know where this went. I had to remind him that I only wanted sex when I cheated the one time and even told the man thank you and no need to contact me again, He saw the emails saying just that.

He has been saying this for years and I asked him not to use this analogy anymore I don’t want to have to defend woman from his limited view.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

As an initial matter, I disagree with your husband on his thoughts that boys will be boys. with respect to this point:



learning to love myself said:


> Whereas a woman can’t do that, they have feelings and they can only make love and they are not able to distinguish the difference between love and sex and that there is no way for them to just have sex like a man.


I actually wonder if it is the opposite. Looking at many of the posts on SIM, one fairly common idea is that in a LTR, many men view sex as a way to give and receive love. Because many have difficulties showing their emotion in other ways, sex becomes the primary way to do that. 

Perhaps because love in the relationship is so wrapped up in sex for many men, physical cheating becomes too much, because it damages that ability to share love.

Based on the confusion and ignorance about this, it appears that many women don't seem to have that same connection, at least in a long term relationship. So perhaps physical cheating is not quite as damaging.

I would be curious to know if there is a difference with respect to how men and women react to EAs and PAs.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is a loaded term, particularly when used to contrast men's behavior with that of women. In the context of relationships, it is used far too often to shame men. You insistence on using that term, rather than one of the synonyms you list, in the face of the responses you got certainly could lead one to wonder if it was in fact meant in a derogatory manner.


So, you agree with principal..


It's just the word choice that you disagree with?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> So, you agree with principal..


I agree with the idea that pride is a big deal to a lot of men. I don't necessarily agree that is why they are less willing to reconcile. I have my own theory I mentioned above.




> It's just the word choice that you disagree with?


That as well as the insistence on sticking with that term even when it provoked the very reaction that was to be expected.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree with the idea that pride is a big deal to a lot of men. I don't necessarily agree that is why they are less willing to reconcile. I have my own theory I mentioned above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't know so many men got their knickers in wad so easily.

The term certainly doesn't bother me. It's just a fact of life. You know, women have egos' as well.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Saying that ego is the reason a man won't take back a cheating wife back is absolute horsesh!t. And I agree with TAG, it's a stupid way to slam it back on the man.

Some people don't take back their wayward spouse because frankly cheating is a dealbreaker for them, period. Ego has nothing to do with it, whether you are a man or a woman.

I can't stay married to someone I don't trust. I know I will become an insecure b!tch. So I opted out when it happened to me. There's no reason why a man wouldn't also decide he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life second guessing his wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

daffodilly said:


> Saying that ego is the reason a man won't take back a cheating wife back is absolute horsesh!t. And I agree with TAG, it's a stupid way to slam it back on the man.
> 
> Some people don't take back their wayward spouse because frankly cheating is a dealbreaker for them, period. Ego has nothing to do with it, whether you are a man or a woman.
> 
> I can't stay married to someone I don't trust. I know I will become an insecure b!tch. So I opted out when it happened to me. There's no reason why a man wouldn't also decide he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life second guessing his wife.


The topic is that women are 7 times more likely to take a man back who has cheated.

Why do you think that is?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

razgor said:


> On top of the biological reasons, I would also add that a wandering wife carries a much heavier social stigma. Society has a long tradition of classifying a cheating wife as less then desireable.
> 
> And a man that takes back a wandering wife loses his manhood and standing in society. There are even words made to describe a man that does this. Not so for a woman that takes back a wandering husband. Heck, just look at this forum and see you posts about a man being a "beta" for taking back his cheating wife. You do not have that when a woman takes back a man.
> 
> It carries a very heavy social stigma for a man to take her back. Sure it impacts a mans ego. But it is not just how a man views himself, but also how society(his friends and family) views a man that takes back a wandering wife.


And I'm one for what others think doesn't matter. You get equivolated to "gay", "spineless", "weak" by just about everyone who knows that the situation happened if you are a man. It's a huge pill to swallow, and unless you are willing to bully almost everyone you know you aren't ready to suffer that consequence.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The topic is that women are 7 times more likely to take a man back who has cheated.
> 
> Why do you think that is?


Sadly, I think its because women are harder on themselves and have lower self esteem....perhaps thinking this is what they deserved, that it's their fault. But I still don't think that translates into men have 'egos', women don't. A PP mentioned if young children were in the picture that would play a huge factor, and I agree.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

From EleGirl....No women do not give up sex in exchange to whatever the OM has to give…like support. Women have sex because they like sex and because it’s a strongest form of emotional intimacy. The way you stated that it sounds like you think that for women, sex is a currency to get what we want. 


Jesus Christ Ele ,you women have used SEX as CURRENCY and to get WHAT YOU WANT for GODD%^N CENTURIES.....What truck did you just fall off of...

You had me up to that point...you may think you have it figured out but you are far from it...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badkarma2013 said:


> From EleGirl....No women do not give up sex in exchange to whatever the OM has to give…like support. Women have sex because they like sex and because it’s a strongest form of emotional intimacy. The way you stated that it sounds like you think that for women, sex is a currency to get what we want.
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ Ele ,you women have used SEX as CURRENCY and to get WHAT YOU WANT for GODD%^N CENTURIES.....What truck did you just fall off of...
> ...


Prostitutes and call girls use sex as currency.

The average married women in our society does not use sex as currency.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Aerith said:


> Apologise in advance for the language but when I was in my early 20s, I heard an explanation about gender difference and infidelity from a couple who were in their 40s back then...
> 
> A guy said to his wife: When I have an affair, it means that "we" fu** "them". If you have an affair, "they" fu** "us".
> 
> For me it's pretty much a basic explanation why men can rarely take their WWs back.


This is absolutely awesome and profound in its simplicity.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

I'd probably take mine back. I'm not religious but I meant mo vows.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

I think the word, "ego", can certainly be used in a negative context but I personally don't have a problem with it. I absolutely have a big ego. 

Men do have egos and typically much bigger ones than women do. It's part of what makes a man a man and gives them their moxy. Most women really find that attractive. It can be synonymous with confidence, character, strength and decisiveness. All qualities that make men attractive to women. Your ego can make you more determined, harder working and persistent. Again, all good qualities.

I rather think men should embrace it rather than allow those who would prefer to frame it in such a negative light and use it as a weapon against us.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Mostlycontent said:


> I think the word, "ego", can certainly be used in a negative context but I personally don't have a problem with it. I absolutely have a big ego.
> 
> Men do have egos and typically much bigger ones than women do. It's part of what makes a man a man and gives them their moxy. Most women really find that attractive. It can be synonymous with confidence, character, strength and decisiveness. All qualities that make men attractive to women. Your ego can make you more determined, harder working and persistent. Again, all good qualities.
> 
> I rather think men should embrace it rather than allow those who would prefer to frame it in such a negative light and use it as a weapon against us.


I agree whole heatedly. But, as you can see... a whole bunch of .... I better not finish.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Just wanted to chime in, but EleGirl has everything under control. Knocking it out of the park on this thread.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Prostitutes and call girls use sex as currency.
> 
> The average married women in our society does not use sex as currency.


I have read TAM forums for over a year now. So I would highly disagree with this. Married women use and manipulate sex to get what they want in marriage all the time. It certainly can be, and would seem from here often is, used as a form of currency


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> I have read TAM forums for over a year now. So I would highly disagree with this. Married women use and manipulate sex to get what they want in marriage all the time. It certainly can be, and would seem from here often is, used as a form of currency


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Absofreakinglutely. How many times have you heard a married man complain that if he doesn't do whatever it is his wife wants him to do for her, he ain't getting some tonight. In fact, it's kind of a common deprecating joke among men. We a man f*cks up, we say: Well, he ain't getting any tonight. Hell, I've heard women say it too. 

If you don't believe married women don't use sex as currency, then I don't know what universe you're living in.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
> 
> Absofreakinglutely. How many times have you heard a married man complain that if he doesn't do whatever it is his wife wants him to do for her, he ain't getting some tonight. In fact, it's kind of a common deprecating joke among men. We a man f*cks up, we say: Well, he ain't getting any tonight. Hell, I've heard women say it too.
> 
> If you don't believe married women don't use sex as currency, then I don't know what universe you're living in.


Its probably the use of the term currency that they find offensive. I also think it varies greatly between couples. My wife doesn't use sex as a punishment. She feels that would be punishing herself too. She gives me the silent treatment instead which for me is agonizing.

With that said though its definitely very common in many marriages. One screw up during the day can mean no sex at night....but I wonder if those wives are just making mountains out of molehills because they didn't want to have sex in the first place. That seems just as likely.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

It's unfortunate this thread has descended into a den of gender biased stereotype hurling and I don't believe we are going to gain much from it.


Every man and women confronted with the ultimate betrayal such as infidelity responds differently some will stay with their wayward spouse and reconcile and some will walk and divorce everyone has there reasons for what they chooses to do with their life and these reasons are complex and there is nothing more complex then human psychology when faced with a difficult decision that will impact multiple lives.



I doubt any betrayed spouse here has made there decision flippantly and the multitude of factors that contribute to that decision is immense factors such as family, religion, finances, social norms, culture , shard history ,kids, and of course the big one do I still love them do I still want them and can I accept them for what they are whether female or male no one trades these waters lightly its a decision no one wants to make but are force to. 



If you choose to believe all men are linear in there reasoning and base their decision around ego well that's your provocative I however base my decisions on reason, logic and what I believe is right not only for myself but for those it may effect that's just me that's who I am as a man if you wish to generalize me for that then it's your provocative. 




With all that being said I'm done here I have graduation to prepare for


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Prostitutes and call girls use sex as currency.
> 
> The average married women in our society does not use sex as currency.


Prostitutes and call girls have sex *for* currency. Other women use sex *as* currency.

Mostly, I'm just provoking you, because not all women do this. But quite a few use sex as a reward and withhold sex as a punishment.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
> 
> Absofreakinglutely. How many times have you heard a married man complain that if he doesn't do whatever it is his wife wants him to do for her, he ain't getting some tonight. In fact, it's kind of a common deprecating joke among men. We a man f*cks up, we say: Well, he ain't getting any tonight. Hell, I've heard women say it too.
> 
> If you don't believe married women don't use sex as currency, then I don't know what universe you're living in.


This is true, but currency is not the right term. Kind of hard to want to have sex with the man you're very angry with. To men, the bottom line is to behave nicely to get sex. To women, if you behave nicely I'll want to have sex with you.

What woman would want to have sex with a drunken slob, crude, pig of a man?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> What woman would want to have sex with a drunken slob, crude, pig of a man?


Very few, and I don't hold it against them. However, it's more likely the case that hubby forgot to do something "right" from her honey-do list, which got her ire up, causing the sexual refusal. Very few husbands are getting refused sex for being total drunken-slob-crude-pigs.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Mostlycontent said:


> I think the word, "ego", can certainly be used in a negative context but I personally don't have a problem with it. I absolutely have a big ego.
> 
> Men do have egos and typically much bigger ones than women do. It's part of what makes a man a man and gives them their moxy. Most women really find that attractive. It can be synonymous with confidence, character, strength and decisiveness. All qualities that make men attractive to women. Your ego can make you more determined, harder working and persistent. Again, all good qualities.
> 
> I rather think men should embrace it rather than allow those who would prefer to frame it in such a negative light and use it as a weapon against us.


I agree with you, having an Ego doesn't have to be a bad thing. to me an Ego can be sexy, being confident is sexy, when it is used in the context of being assertive not aggressive. 

I think its all how you look at it, when someone is taking offense to something, I tend to see a person who goes through life with a glass half empty attitude, someone that can see all sides tends to go through life with a glass half full attitude, its all perception.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

MSP said:


> Very few, and I don't hold it against them. However, it's more likely the case that hubby forgot to do something "right" from her honey-do list, which got her ire up, causing the sexual refusal. Very few husbands are getting refused sex for being total drunken-slob-crude-pigs.


I keep hearing about these type of woman and frankly gives woman a bad name, don't know any personally that do this, If I'm not having sex it is 9 out of 10 times that I'm tired and even then I usually do it. My husband has said no to me many more times than I have said no to him.

I kind of think people should choose a mate with similar drives. 

If you marry a hot chick and you kind of know she is a gold digger and she is super into you and you have lots of money and give her what she wants the whole time you are courting her, then you marry her and are surprised that she is materialistic or that she is not ok with giving up the life style you sold her on, I think that's on you (not you, on the person who does this) 

I think if a woman starts pulling this kind of crap, you tell her it’s not acceptable, you are either in love with someone and want to do this because you love this person or you are with someone that is manipulative and if they are not willing to see the wrong in this, I see no reason to stay with them, that isn’t love, it’s a control issue.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MSP said:


> ... However, it's more likely the case that hubby forgot to do something "right" from her honey-do list, which got her ire up, causing the sexual refusal.
> 
> Very few husbands are getting refused sex for being total drunken-slob-crude-pigs.


Hang on.... If your wife refuses to have sex with you because you folded the towels wrong, you married the wrong person. If you wife doesn't want to have sex with you because she asked you to finish the laundry and put it away while she took your mother to the dentist, but you didn't complete and now she has to get it done.... You're an ass!

What's reasonable expectations and what is not. That is negotiated between spouses and if you don't like the deal you struck renegotiate with the right person but don't blame all women.

This thread questions why women are more likely forgive their cheating husbands. I agree with EleGirl, it comes down to ego. The men take exception to the use of that word but that word fits, as EleGirl has already explained quite succinctly.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Hang on.... If your wife refuses to have sex with you because you folded the towels wrong, you married the wrong person. If you wife doesn't want to have sex with you because she asked you to finish the laundry and put it away while she took your mother to the dentist, but you didn't complete and now she has to get it done.... You're an ass!
> 
> What's reasonable expectations and what is not. That is negotiated between spouses and if you don't like the deal you struck renegotiate with the right person but don't blame all women.
> 
> This thread questions why women are more likely forgive their cheating husbands. I agree with EleGirl, it comes down to ego. The men take exception to the use of that word but that word fits, as EleGirl has already explained quite succinctly.


Check out post #5 in this thread... Elegirl picked up the banner and ran with it.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

hambone said:


> Check out post #5 in this thread... Elegirl picked up the banner and ran with it.


She sure as hell did! She's my hero!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> I didn't know so many men got their knickers in wad so easily.
> 
> The term certainly doesn't bother me. It's just a fact of life. You know, women have egos' as well.


I agree it is a fact of life. But with respect to men, an ego is almost never consider a good thing. It is used to shame men for not having the proper acceptance of something. 

I have provided a theory as to why men are far more like to divorce, but I guess the "it must be men and their unreasonable and illogical ego" contingent will keep hitting it out of the park.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree it is a fact of life. But with respect to men, an ego is almost never consider a good thing. It is used to shame men for not having the proper acceptance of something.
> 
> I have provided a theory as to why men are far more like to divorce, but I guess the "it must be men and their unreasonable and illogical ego" contingent will keep hitting it out of the park.


Men have ego's. There are more positives than negatives to male egos or nature would have selected it out of our genes.

On the whole, I would say that men think more logically than women do... But, on this particular issue, the men that go for divorce, by and large, can't get passed their bruised egos.


I do think that women weight out their options... and as mad as they might be... when they calm down, and start weighing their options... they realize that their life with him will be better for them. And, if they have children, especially small children..that weighs heavily in their decision.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree it is a fact of life. But with respect to men, an ego is almost never consider a good thing. It is used to shame men for not having the proper acceptance of something.
> 
> I have provided a theory as to why men are far more like to divorce, but I guess the "it must be men and their unreasonable and illogical ego" contingent will keep hitting it out of the park.


I'm sorry TAG, I missed your post above, which is now below...



Tall Average Guy said:


> I actually wonder if it is the opposite. Looking at many of the posts on SIM, one fairly common idea is that in a LTR, many men view sex as a way to give and receive love. Because many have difficulties showing their emotion in other ways, sex becomes the primary way to do that.
> 
> Perhaps because love in the relationship is so wrapped up in sex for many men, physical cheating becomes too much, because it damages that ability to share love.
> 
> ...


I think your theory has a great deal of merit.

I have always felt that my biggest concern would not be my husband having sex with another woman, but falling in love with her.

This is a very confusing thing because as teenagers, both boys and girls tend to agree, at least in my day, that dudes wanna get laid and girls wanna get married. They each give one to get the other. But it seems after marriage the opposite takes place. Dudes look at sex as love while women look at sex as a means to keep the marriage. Of course this is a gross generalization, but it seems to have merit. Also confusing as hell. Why is that I wonder?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> I have read TAM forums for over a year now. So I would highly disagree with this. Married women use and manipulate sex to get what they want in marriage all the time. It certainly can be, and would seem from here often is, used as a form of currency


It seems that the men here think that most women use sex as currency to get things they want. And that most women also withhold sex to punish men.

From what I've read men withhold sex at a level about equal to what women do. So, I guess if we use the same logic, men who withhold sex, regardless of the reasons they are doing it, are using sex as currency to get what they want and/or to punish their wife.

There are a lot of women on TAM who deal with husbands who regularly will not have sex, who turn them down all the time. I'm one of those women so I know first hand that it's very common for men to do this.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sorry TAG, I missed your post above, which is now below...
> 
> I think your theory has a great deal of merit.
> 
> _I have always felt that my biggest concern would not be my husband having sex with another woman, but falling in love with her._


This fits with my wife's reaction on D-Day. Her reaction really caught me off guard because it wasn't at all how I would have reacted. For starters she was really calm. Her primary concern was did I have feelings for someone else, followed by did I buy expensive gifts or do special things for anyone else (I think this was really more related to her first concern).

The really weird thing was that she seemed to actually take comfort in the fact that I really couldn't remember too many details and even names in some cases (most of my cheating was done when really intoxicated). If it were the other way around and she didn't know the details I would have been infuriated, even accused her of lying.

She decided right then and there that she would forgive me. Honestly speaking I still don't know why. She says it was love, but for over decade I feel as though I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. That one day she will seek revenge. But there has been zero signs that any thought like that has ever crossed her mind. I honestly wish she had made reconciliation more difficult for me.


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## Pattiroxxi (May 3, 2014)

I am the opposite. I would never forgive anyone who would have cheated on me. I am just a very cold person. Most women care for the emotional part of the betrayal, i care more for the physical part, because that is what he can't give to anyone else except his partner and if he does then he is not my partner anymore.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I guess if we use the same logic, men who withhold sex, regardless of the reasons they are doing it, are using sex as currency to get what they want and/or to punish their wife.


Just because two people do the same thing, it does not mean that they have the same motivation. 

In the vast majority of cases I have seen where men do not have sex with their wives it is because their wives wear the pants and the men feel less manly. In my experience, this accounts for at least 80% of the cases where men avoid marital sex. Bossy women are an instinctive turn-off, despite what the media might suggest.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

MSP said:


> Just because two people do the same thing, it does not mean that they have the same motivation.
> 
> In the vast majority of cases I have seen where men do not have sex with their wives it is because their wives wear the pants and the men feel less manly. In my experience, this accounts for at least 80% of the cases where men avoid marital sex. _*Bossy women are an instinctive turn-off, despite what the media might suggest.*_


I'm not so sure about this. Most men whose wives wear the pants prefer it that way. Also, I don't think a man with a normal libido is going to turn down sex just because his wife treats him like crap. It doesn't take most men a great deal of effort to get in the mood. 

Putting on my cave man hat, I would think that if you had a mean wife you wouldn't want to cut yourself off from sex too (that would make the relationship suck even more). There are plenty of guys on the SIM board whose wives are treating them like crap in every area, yet they are asking for advice on how to get back into her pants. For some reason I think men separate the two.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MSP said:


> In the vast majority of cases I have seen where men do not have sex with their wives it is because their wives wear the pants and the men feel less manly. In my experience, this accounts for at least 80% of the cases where men avoid marital sex. Bossy women are an instinctive turn-off, despite what the media might suggest.


Sometimes I push my husband around just to make him push me back  in fact, last Saturday night... Ummm Ummm Ummm!

So grow a pair and push back!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP,


Really? In your way of thinking the woman is always the problem?

It's nice to know that men are so perfect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> It seems that the men here think that most women use sex as currency to get things they want. And that most women also withhold sex to punish men.
> 
> From what I've read men withhold sex at a level about equal to what women do. So, I guess if we use the same logic, men who withhold sex, regardless of the reasons they are doing it, are using sex as currency to get what they want and/or to punish their wife.
> 
> There are a lot of women on TAM who deal with husbands who regularly will not have sex, who turn them down all the time. I'm one of those women so I know first hand that it's very common for men to do this.


I know I read those posts as well and disagree with men who use it as well. To me things like sex, affection, communication are not something that should be used as currency or as a weapon in any healthy relationship. One particular thread where a woman admitted she used sex to manipulate her husband into being nicer was proud of that fact. That is crazy to me that this was her thought process but equally crazy was that he was willing to tolerate it....it's true that we teach others how to treat us. And yes if the genders were reversed I would say the same thing.

I'm not saying that people don't use sex as currency. Just that it's not a very healthy relationship if they do


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> So grow a pair and push back!


Darn right.



EleGirl said:


> In your way of thinking the woman is always the problem?


Nope.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

hambone said:


> Men have ego's. There are more positives than negatives to male egos or nature would have selected it out of our genes.
> 
> On the whole, I would say that men think more logically than women do..*. But, on this particular issue, the men that go for divorce, by and large, can't get passed their bruised egos.*
> 
> ...


I just can't understand how you think this. Maybe your social sphere is different than mine but let me ask you this. How many men have you actually known that have been cheated on and left the marriage cause of it? Not snarky I really do want to know cause obviously your personal experience is vastly different than mine.

I have known 6 to include myself. All of them were friends of mine with the exception of 1 which is the husband of my female friend and he was cheated on in his first marriage. Anyway with these friends we have talked about the infidelity in our pervious marriages and what happend afterward. The most common thought through everyone was how could I ever trust she wouldn't lie and do it again. 

It's one thing to have your spouse screw someone else, that's bad enough and hurts for sure....but what keeps you up at night is that they lied to you, to your face, for months or even years. Anyone who is that cold, calculating, selfish, and obviously good at lying is someone you can't trust. Staying away from people like that and moving on with your life isn't about ego....It's about common sense. I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with anyone like that.

Perhaps we just have a different definition of ego


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> Darn right.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.


In you post you clearly put the blame on women if their husbands withhold sex...it's the woman's fault because she makes him feel like less of a man. So I am don't buy your "nope" now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> In you post you put the clearly blame women if their husbands withhold sex...it's the woman's fault because she makes him feel like less of a man. So I am don't by you "nope" now.


I said that this has been the case in the majority of the instances where I have seen men uninterested in sex with their wives. You extrapolated that to say that I believe all problems are the fault of women and that men are perfect. 

Take your hyperbolic straw men elsewhere, thanks.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I just can't understand how you think this. Maybe your social sphere is different than mine but let me ask you this. How many men have you actually known that have been cheated on and left the marriage cause of it? Not snarky I really do want to know cause obviously your personal experience is vastly different than mine.
> 
> I have known 6 to include myself. All of them were friends of mine with the exception of 1 which is the husband of my female friend and he was cheated on in his first marriage. Anyway with these friends we have talked about the infidelity in our pervious marriages and what happend afterward. The most common thought through everyone was how could I ever trust she wouldn't lie and do it again.
> 
> ...


You don't think that women have the same thoughts?

What explains the fact that women reconcile 7 times more often than men?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> You don't think that women have the same thoughts?
> 
> What explains the fact that women reconcile 7 times more often than men?


It must be their bruised ego preventing them from making the right choice. Because no one had offered an alternative theory.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> It must be their bruised ego preventing them from making the right choice. Because no one had offered an alternative theory.



It's the same situation for men and women...

Anything you say for men... you can say for women..

Yet you get different results... Men make a difference choice from women...


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> MSP,
> 
> 
> Really? In your way of thinking the woman is always the problem?
> ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> It's the same situation for men and women...
> 
> Anything you say for men... you can say for women..
> 
> Yet you get different results... Men make a difference choice from women...


Sure. But why? You insist it is bruised ego and ignore any other explanation. Clearly there can be no other reason.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > MSP,
> ...


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Sure. But why? You insist it is bruised ego and ignore any other explanation. Clearly there can be no other reason.


You TOTALLY missed the other half of my explanation. Just ignored it like it didn't exists.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> You TOTALLY missed the other half of my explanation. Just ignored it like it didn't exists.


Not at all. I understand that men's bruised egos prevent them from coming to the correct decision. If they could just get over themselves, they would not spite themselves. 

I also understand this is the only possible explanation.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not at all. I understand that men's bruised egos prevent them from coming to the correct decision. If they could just get over themselves, they would not spite themselves.
> 
> I also understand this is the only possible explanation.


Building a strawman AND missing the other half of my explanation.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> Building a strawman AND missing the other half of my explanation.


I don't see what I have missed. I read your posts and understood them. You are the one that has dismissed (or ignored) ever other proffered explanation by insisting that it is ego. 

So I understand that it is all about men not being able to get over themselves and their ego is why they can't forgive cheating. No straw man here, just your posts.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't see what I have missed. I read your posts and understood them. You are the one that has dismissed (or ignored) ever other proffered explanation by insisting that it is ego.
> 
> So I understand that it is all about men not being able to get over themselves and their ego is why they can't forgive cheating. No straw man here, just your posts.



LOL.. you just don't seem to have a clue. You are laser focused on PART of my position. Which you are taking out of context.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

hambone said:


> You don't think that women have the same thoughts?
> 
> What explains the fact that women reconcile 7 times more often than men?


Well first this has to be a very small number because in the US 2/3 of all divorces are filed by women so they aren't staying. Nor should they if they are being cheated on in my opinion. So of that small number could be a lot of things....religious pressure to stay married, social pressure to stay married, maybe domestic abuse in the form of economic control that they can't leave? Could be any or all. And men who stay could be under those same kinds of pressures.

I know that women have the same thoughts I illustrated about trust because the female friends I have that divorced over cheating left for same reason which is they couldn't trust their spouse again.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> LOL.. you just don't seem to have a clue. You are laser focused on PART of my position. Which you are taking out of context.


Not at all. I read your positions and addressed them, which is far more courtesy than you gave mine. But I have no clue while you are arbiter of all that is correct. 

I will say that when it comes to ego, you have ample experience with what you are talking about.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not at all. I read your positions and addressed them, which is far more courtesy than you gave mine. But I have no clue while you are arbiter of all that is correct.
> 
> I will say that when it comes to ego, you have ample experience with what you are talking about.


Nope, I am an arbitrator of MY position. And so far, you have only addressed half of what I said... which is incomplete and lacks context.


I don't see any point in continuing this. You keep mis-stating my position by omission. And I keep telling you that you're omitting half of what I said... I know what I posted.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hambone said:


> Nope, I am an arbitrator of MY position. And so far, you have only addressed half of what I said... which is incomplete and lacks context.


I did addressed it all. Feel free to point me to what I did not address. 

You dismiss anyone that says it is not ego by asking what is the reason. I certainly offered my theory but you could not be bothered to address it. You just keep repeating your idea. The only conclusion is that you are the arbiter (as noted by you insistence that since "ego" does not bother you, it should not bother anyone else). 



> I don't see any reason to continue this.


Of course you don't.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I just can't understand how you think this. Maybe your social sphere is different than mine but let me ask you this. How many men have you actually known that have been cheated on and left the marriage cause of it? Not snarky I really do want to know cause obviously your personal experience is vastly different than mine.
> 
> I have known 6 to include myself. All of them were friends of mine with the exception of 1 which is the husband of my female friend and he was cheated on in his first marriage. Anyway with these friends we have talked about the infidelity in our pervious marriages and what happend afterward. The most common thought through everyone was how could I ever trust she wouldn't lie and do it again.
> 
> ...


Without going into such depth it might be that you just don't want to deal with it. Nor should you have to.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> This fits with my wife's reaction on D-Day. Her reaction really caught me off guard because it wasn't at all how I would have reacted. For starters she was really calm. Her primary concern was did I have feelings for someone else, followed by did I buy expensive gifts or do special things for anyone else (I think this was really more related to her first concern).
> 
> The really weird thing was that she seemed to actually take comfort in the fact that I really couldn't remember too many details and even names in some cases (most of my cheating was done when really intoxicated). If it were the other way around and she didn't know the details I would have been infuriated, even accused her of lying.
> 
> She decided right then and there that she would forgive me. Honestly speaking I still don't know why. She says it was love, but for over decade I feel as though I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. That one day she will seek revenge. But there has been zero signs that any thought like that has ever crossed her mind. I honestly wish she had made reconciliation more difficult for me.



My W is the same way, RH. She has forgiven me for some things during our marriage that I would have struggled much more with. I think it comes down to a couple of reasons.

The first is that some people just aren't as spiteful and vindictive as others. I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but I'm more of that ilk. I just don't get over things and forgive people as quickly as she does. I do eventually, but mine often have claw marks in it before I completely let something go.

The second is one's own self worth. I think people, such as your W and mine, perhaps have a stronger self worth than others. In other words, they don't take it nearly as personally as some would and instead believe that it's a problem with the cheater rather than with them. Their sense of self worth and value don't seem to be as affected as yours or mine would likely be. 

It's interesting for sure and can almost, I did say almost, be misconstrued to mean that they don't care as much. I know I thought that initially but have sense realized that was not the case. I tend to take most hurts as a personal slight but my W doesn't process it that way. As she's jokingly said to me before, "you'd almost have to hit me over the head for me to get really offended". She's just much more likely to give people the benefit of the doubt than I am.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

MSP said:


> Just because two people do the same thing, it does not mean that they have the same motivation.
> 
> In the vast majority of cases I have seen where men do not have sex with their wives it is because their wives wear the pants and the men feel less manly. In my experience, this accounts for at least 80% of the cases where men avoid marital sex. Bossy women are an instinctive turn-off, despite what the media might suggest.


I fall in the category of husband withholding sex, I'm anything but bossy, tell me about the 20%. My husband had no sexual problems, in fact is extremely sexual. 

I feel he only now wants me because other men did as well. I went for years begging, negotiating, coming to my own conclusions and then giving up. 

Maybe If I were demanding and *****y he would have been more attracted to me.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

badkarma2013 said:


> I think as BHs on a gut level KNOW when your wife has had an A...they have given ALL of themselves to the OM..not just sex ..ALL of themselves....
> 
> I believe that is some of the differernce...again we are all speaking in general terms
> 
> ...


I don't believe that a WW has necessarily given "all" of herself, any more than a WH has necessarily only given part of himself to an AP...

Are you saying that men only have affairs for sex without any other form of connection?:scratchhead:

Frankly, I wouldn't care what my SO had given to an AP. He would have given something that was rightfully mine and he would be gone.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Mostlycontent said:


> My W is the same way, RH. She has forgiven me for some things during our marriage that I would have struggled much more with. I think it comes down to a couple of reasons.
> 
> The first is that some people just aren't as spiteful and vindictive as others. I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but I'm more of that ilk. I just don't get over things and forgive people as quickly as she does. I do eventually, but mine often have claw marks in it before I completely let something go.
> 
> ...


I like what you have said here, In my own situation my husband did some things that I can truly say most woman would never forgive him for and I stayed with him out of love and out of knowing the man he is deep down.

Not the Ass who hurt me a few times, When I gave up on our marriage and cheated on my husband (ONS) he gave me a second chance but was nowhere as forgiving as I was with him. 

He isn't a forgiving type and still brings up my cheating at least once a day for almost the last 3 years, I know it is my doing and I accept he is still grieving, but if I bring up one thing he has done he spits fire amongst other things.. so I have learned to keep my mouth shut and except that its my fault for not leaving him and making him realize what he did.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

learning to love myself said:


> I fall in the category of husband withholding sex, I'm anything but bossy, tell me about the 20%. My husband had no sexual problems, in fact is extremely sexual.
> 
> I feel he only now wants me because other men did as well. I went for years begging, negotiating, coming to my own conclusions and then giving up.
> 
> Maybe If I were demanding and *****y he would have been more attracted to me.


The assumption made here that when men start withholding sex (or stop having it all together) in their marriage is because their wife is bossy 80% might be what the poster thinks is going on. It's not accurate in the wider population according to recent studies.

Men withhold sex at about the same rate as women do. Their reasons are not all the different then those of women either. There is a list of them, but in the final analysis it's because the couple has lost the needed connection.


For anyone who is interested in the topic, there was a study done based on interviews with 4,000 men and women in sexless marriages. *"Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It"* by Bob Berkowitz & Susan Yager-Berkowitz 

Link to an article that gives bit more info on the findings.

FOXSexpert: Five Reasons Men Stop Having Sex | Fox News


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> I don't believe that a WW has necessarily given "all" of herself, any more than a WH has necessarily only given part of himself to an AP...
> 
> Are you saying that men only have affairs for sex without any other form of connection?:scratchhead:
> 
> Frankly, I wouldn't care what my SO had given to an AP. He would have given something that was rightfully mine and he would be gone.



THATS EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING.

Most men i know of and those who were WHs could have sex with the OW and walk if it NEV ER happened..NO Emotion what so ever..

This is being general...But most WWs did not just JUmp into the A...They flirted ...talked..had coffee.. etc(worked up to it..) and found a emotion connection that was a strong BOND to the OM..then the PA happened...



"Frankly, I wouldn't care what my SO had given to an AP. He would have given something that was rightfully mine and he would be gone" BY COSMOS

IM 100% with you there.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The assumption made here that when men start withholding sex (or stop having it all together) in their marriage is because their wife is bossy 80% might be what the poster thinks is going on. It's not accurate in the wider population according to recent studies.
> 
> Men withhold sex at about the same rate as women do. Their reasons are not all the different then those of women either. There is a list of them, but in the final analysis it's because the couple has lost the needed connection.
> 
> ...




Ele...as much as you PI*S me off ...Im learning of a issue that i did not know existed....

Thank you for the insight...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badkarma2013 said:


> Ele ...you seem to have no problem jabbing at people and their opinions here..


It’s not ‘jabbing’. It’s discussing points and counter points. That’s what people do on internet forums. There are a lot of people on this thread countering and arguing their thoughts/opinions back and forth. Last time I checked, I have as much right as anyone else to post my thoughts/opinions here. If you think that I don’t, take it up with the moderators. 

On this thread, out of your 9 posts so far, 7 of them are you yelling and even cursing at me. So it’s pretty clear that you have no problem ‘jabbing’ at people whose opinions do not agree with yours. Your open hostility is not welcome. 



badkarma2013 said:


> I have read on one of you post you are not married and in no relationship ..
> 
> I also believe you said it was your choice ...from your venom here i seriously doubt its ALL YOUR CHOICE.....


I’m not sure why you think I’m expressing ‘venom”. That’s an interpretation coming from your imagination. 

The purpose of TAM is for people to discuss their marriages and relationships. In order for TAM to be a safe place for people to do this, we do not use the personal information that a person posts to degrade and attack them. How dare you make this kind of comment based on 2 short paragraphs I posted? You know nothing really about my life and my marriages. You make an assumption that I’m not in a relationship at this time. What would it prove anyway if I were not in a relationship at this time? Does a person have to be in a relationship very moment of their life for them to have credence and value?

How would you feel if someone here were to start attacking you and insulting you based on the very personal things you have posted here? 



badkarma2013 said:


> Piece of advice..." The most dangerous thing a person can do is to start beliveing THEIR OWN BULLS*&T"...


You might want to look in a mirror and read that line to yourself.



badkarma2013 said:


> While your opinions here may hold validity for some the VAST majority here disagree with you.


Is this sort of nonsense supposed to hurt my feelings? 



badkarma2013 said:


> Ele ...While that doesnt make you Wrong,,,IT dosent make you RIGHT EITHER.


Since you obviously strongly dislike me, perhaps you should block my posts.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The assumption made here that when men start withholding sex (or stop having it all together) in their marriage is because their wife is bossy 80% might be what the poster thinks is going on. It's not accurate in the wider population according to recent studies.
> 
> Men withhold sex at about the same rate as women do. Their reasons are not all the different then those of women either. There is a list of them, but in the final analysis it's because the couple has lost the needed connection.
> 
> ...


Meh. Faux News quoting a self-reporting survey that handily ties in with a book saying that men should Man Up!™ and stop feeling not in the mood just because their wives are criticizing them and lying there like a dead fish. The salient point of the book being, of course, that whatever the reason, it's not the wife's fault. Even her weight gain is his fault.

There are much better books on this topic. I wouldn't place much faith in this one.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MSP said:


> Meh. Faux News quoting a self-reporting survey that handily ties in with a book saying that men should Man Up!™ and stop feeling not in the mood just because their wives are criticizing them and lying there like a dead fish. The salient point of the book being, of course, that whatever the reason, it's not the wife's fault. Even her weight gain is his fault.
> 
> There are much better books on this topic. I wouldn't place much faith in this one.


Interesting. I didn't get that impression from the article.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Interesting. I didn't get that impression from the article.


Me either. The article clearly stated that the issue is with both spouses. It did not put the blame on anyone.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

badkarma2013 said:


> Most men i know of and those who were WHs could have sex with the OW and walk if it NEV ER happened..NO Emotion what so ever..
> 
> I can understand this being the case with a ONS or a very brief fling, but not where there's been a considerable amount of time and effort put into the affair... I don't believe that most men are quite _that_ emotionally detached.
> 
> ...


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Me either. The article clearly stated that the issue is with both spouses. It did not put the blame on anyone.


I agree. However, I was referring to the book itself, rather than the article.

By the way, since I said there are better books, I thought I'd offer one, for anyone who may be interested. Lots to choose from, but one I read not too long ago (a couple of years ago) and thought was quite good is THIS one.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> I said that this has been the case in the majority of the instances where I have seen men uninterested in sex with their wives. You extrapolated that to say that I believe all problems are the fault of women and that men are perfect.
> 
> Take your hyperbolic straw men elsewhere, thanks.


Your post stunned me to be honest.

When women don't want sex with their husband, what % of the time do you think the fault is with the husband and what with the wife?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> I agree. However, I was referring to the book itself, rather than the article.


You read the book?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Your post stunned me to be honest.
> 
> When women don't want sex with their husband, what % of the time do you think the fault is with the husband and what with the wife?


I apologize for being a bit acerbic. I'm going through quite a rough patch, coupled with some health problems, and it's affecting my tone. 

Lemme get back to you; hopefully a bit of sleep will even me out somewhat.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

80% of women agree it's 100% the fault of the husband


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It’s not ‘jabbing’. It’s discussing points and counter points. That’s what people do on internet forums. There are a lot of people on this thread countering and arguing their thoughts/opinions back and forth. Last time I checked, I have as much right as anyone else to post my thoughts/opinions here. If you think that I don’t, take it up with the moderators.
> 
> On this thread, out of your 9 posts so far, 7 of them are you yelling and even cursing at me. So it’s pretty clear that you have no problem ‘jabbing’ at people whose opinions do not agree with yours. Your open hostility is not welcome.
> 
> ...




And perhaps You Should listen to those who disagree with YOU!

I would never block you.......you aggravate so much ...its lets me know im alive...

God Ele you are a piece of work...love you badkarma2013


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

staystrong said:


> 80% of women agree it's 100% the fault of the husband


So as it seems and you wanted to point out its the men against the woman on TAM.

People all want to throw stones and don't bother to look at the glass house they live in. I don't get it.

If a couple is fighting/disagreeing it does take 2 to make this happen. If one spouse is feeling picked on all of the time, they need to communicate it, try to find a solution or get out. 

I'm saying this as a spouse that feels this way. I love my husband dearly, he is however a hard man to please, he is what some people might call volatile and argumentative, If I didn't love him so much I would be out the door. Would you consider this my fault?

I say yes as I choose to stay with him. 

Its getting a little old having the men against the woman here.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You read the book?


I’m back, a little bit more level-headed, though still not doing well. But anyway. 

Yes, I have read the book. In fact I own it. It’s not the sort of relationship book I tend to buy and it’s definitely not nearly as good as most of the others I own. It’s not the worst one I’ve read, though. That dubious honour goes to _If Only He Knew_. 

Here is what I don't like about it. There are some good things, but it's not a book I would recommend, overall. My reasons follow. 

First of all, the survey was multiple choice and the answers were chosen ahead of time by the authors, so they may not accurately reflect what is truly going on. There are some definite issues with this, but I’ll come back to them later.

Secondly, the book explores the possible reasons why men withdraw from sex, but their solutions are almost non-existent and extremely biased towards pharmaceutical solutions. The majority of their recommendations are to ask your doctor about medication, despite the fact that medication is rarely a good answer in these cases. The average Joe on the street knows that the medications suggested in this book frequently cause sexual problems for men and women. Their other solution is the oft-repeated, “Be more open with your communication”, which is not a bad suggestion, but they don’t really tell you how to do this and it is such an obvious piece of advice that it’s hardly worth mentioning at all without offering some specific advice about how to go about opening up to one another. 

Despite writing a book that implies the contrary, they also state that exciting sex is pretty much out of the question for committed couples:

  _“The constant, relentless, delicious sex of those first few months or years will probably never return. For the majority of people fortunate enough to be in loving long-term committed relationships, fantasies, vacations, and lacy underwear aren’t going to reverse those brain chemicals back to the good old days . . . ”_

When it comes to disagreements between the sexes, the woman is always considered right, even when she is guessing about something that the man knows for sure. When 19% of women say that their husbands were never into sex in the first place and only 3% of men say that they were never into it, the men are held as lying, even though this is an anonymous survey and men have a history of answering such surveys accurately.

There are excuses for women. When one male responder says his wife constantly criticizes him in every little thing he does, even with his work, the authors say that he must want her to do it so he can justify withdrawing. Another man says his wife always has to be right and thinks she knows everything. The authors say that she must be desperate for his support and understanding. 

This colours the whole book. When men say anything, the authors believe the worst. When it comes to the women, the authors will twist things out of all recognition to take all responsibility away from them. 

When when claim a fault with their wives, such as lack of sexual adventurousness or even enjoyment from sex, they are said to be blame shifting. When women admit to having faults, the authors blame the men. Even when women openly admit to their faults, the authors dismiss and absolve them of it:

_“Many women admit to being critical, but they are unwilling or somehow unable to stop. In other words, his behaviour causes her criticism . . .”_

The example following that remark is of a wife who harasses her husband’s every move, especially when he helps around the house. Nothing he does is good enough and she is a total neat freak (wiping down all the bathroom surfaces after every visit). And then she criticizes him for his lack of libido. The kicker is that she admits to not even wanting to have sex with him! But that doesn’t stop her from criticizing him about it.

The authors compound the problem by insisting that men are hiding something despite openly give specific reasons. For instance, one wife says that she doesn’t know why her husband stopped having sex with her. She says he blames his medication. Well, that’s probably what it is. When there is a clear structural issue that is known to cause difficulties, why insert needless suspicious that it is somehow personal? Female readers are probably just going to end up suspicious of their husband’s replies. How will that help their marriages?

They blame patriarchal oppression for women being sexually unenthusiastic. They also said that men may secretly want unadventurous wives because that makes them feel superior and less threatened than a wife who wants to have fun sex with them.

They are skeptical and surprised that men find significant weight gain in their wives a factor for reduced sexual interest. They have obviously not been paying any attention to what men say. 

Women’s weight gain is seriously considered to be for some pretty out-there reasons, including “to justify abuse” and “not give in to a husband’s controlling demands”. 

The use outliers to validate their arguments. In one case 14 men said that they stopped having sex immediately after their wedding because their wives were not sexually adventurous enough. While this is certainly valid for those men, 14 out of 4000 respondents is statistically insignificant. And when you consider that low desire married men account for only about 20% of the married population, the percentage drops even further, to something with several zeros after the decimal place. How is this a common or important issue? Putting stuff like this in the book is just a distraction form the real problems most couples will face.

Some of their data is outdated, such as studies related to cancer and testosterone. 

And so on, though that covers most of it. As I said, it’s not all horrible, but there are far better books out there. This is not one I would recommend. 



EleGirl said:


> When women don't want sex with their husband, what % of the time do you think the fault is with the husband and what with the wife?


First of all, I would not use the word 'fault'. The majority of the time I don't believe marriage problems are due to deliberate sabotage, so I would rather not cast blame. Usually both parties act from their emotions, without knowing how much better things could be if they altered their methods. Men and women can both do things better and I think that if anyone is to blame it is the typical crap popularized by the mainstream media that gives people bad ideas as to how to act in relationships. 

Interestingly, when you read the data and interviews from the above book, they come right into line with my own experiences in talking to married men and women, despite the fact that the authors take their data and then pretty much ignore the obvious implications (why are men angry with their critical, controlling wives? Obviously because men are emotional basket cases). 

These are the main reasons why men withdraw from sex:


 Their wives are critical and/or controlling.
 Their wives lack any enthusiasm and/or passively resist their sexual advances by finding other things to do instead of sex.
 The husbands have no idea how to be real men and become like a poor copy of women. 
 Their wives at some point shut down sexually and withheld sex from them. After what is usually at least one or two years of rejection, the men are unwilling to have sex. This is partly a control issue, too, with the women controlling the flow of sex and the men responding by controlling their own sexual willingness. You can read many threads here on TAM where men say that they are giving up and plan to stop initiating sex, because their wives show no real interest. 
 The husbands have a medical condition or, even more often, are on medications that interfere with their sex drive or ability to maintain erections. 
 The wives gained a significant amount of weight and do nothing to address this. 
 One, or both, spouses is a workaholic and refuses to make time for the other.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> I’m back, a little bit more level-headed, though still not doing well. But anyway.


And I’ll respond. Though it will take some time and a few posts.



MSP said:


> Yes, I have read the book. In fact I own it. It’s not the sort of relationship book I tend to buy and it’s definitely not nearly as good as most of the others I own. It’s not the worst one I’ve read, though. That dubious honour goes to _If Only He Knew_.


I did not suggest this book as the only one that a person read. 

There are books that address different issues. For the many women whose husbands withhold sex and use it as a way to punish, manipulate and express anger this book is a very good resource. Since you are not a woman with this problem, I guess it’s not something that you care about. 



MSP said:


> Here is what I don't like about it. There are some good things, but it's not a book I would recommend, overall. My reasons follow.
> 
> First of all, the survey was multiple choice and the answers were chosen ahead of time by the authors, so they may not accurately reflect what is truly going on. There are some definite issues with this, but I’ll come back to them later.


This is not accurate.

The surveys are in the back of the book. There is one for men and one for women. 

A brief breakdown of the men’s survey:

One multiples choice question asking when the man stopped having sex with their wife. Before marriage, on honeymoon, first year of marriage or after the first year.

Then there is a series of yes/no question... sample _“I no longer find her physically attractive”._

Then there are eleven (11) open-ended (essay) questions. Here are a sample of a few of those.

_“Can you briefly describe what you mean? For example, if you find her physically unattractive, why? How has she changed? Or if you are angry at her, why? What are the issues?”

“If you could do things over again, what, if anything, would you do differently?”

“Is there anything you’d like to add?”_

After the people submitted the survey, some were interviewed to get more in-depth insight.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> Secondly, the book explores the possible reasons why men withdraw from sex, but their solutions are almost non-existent and extremely biased towards pharmaceutical solutions. The majority of their recommendations are to ask your doctor about medication, despite the fact that medication is rarely a good answer in these cases. The average Joe on the street knows that the medications suggested in this book frequently cause sexual problems for men and women.


The book does not suggest pharmaceutical solutions. 

Instead there is a chapter on depression. That chapter discusses the negative effects that pharmaceuticals can have on libido. 

It does suggest that a man who has issues with low libido and/or ED consult with his physician and make sure to bring a list of all the medications he is taking so that the doctor can review them as potential contributors to the problem.

_“We suggest that the low-libido partner begin by visiting his primary care physician. He should bring a list of any medication he is taking. Any illness that might be casing an inability to get an erection, or inhibit orgasm, should be discussed. Lifestyle choices, such as excessive drinking, recreational drug use, smoking, and diet should be revealed as well. Remember, it is necessary to be brutally honest about the sexual problems. If the primary care physician suspects urogenital issues, he will probably refer the patient to a urologist.”_




> Their other solution is the oft-repeated, “Be more open with your communication”, which is not a bad suggestion, but they don’t really tell you how to do this and it is such an obvious piece of advice that it’s hardly worth mentioning at all without offering some specific advice about how to go about opening up to one another.


If it’s such an obvious piece of advice, then why is that we need things like TAM, MC’s, marriage help books, etc.? It’s because a lot of people seem to prefer to not communicate and instead stew in anger towards their spouse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> Despite writing a book that implies the contrary, they also state that exciting sex is pretty much out of the question for committed couples:
> 
> _“The constant, relentless, delicious sex of those first few months or years will probably never return. For the majority of people fortunate enough to be in loving long-term committed relationships, fantasies, vacations, and lacy underwear aren’t going to reverse those brain chemicals back to the good old days . . . ”_


The book does not imply that it has the cure for getting a long term married couple back to the kind of euphoria that exits in the early stages of a romantic relationship. What they say is a realistic view of long term marriage, especially one that is having significant issues such as a spouse who has cut off all sex in the marriage. Here’s the more of the quote:

_“The constant, relentless, delicious sex of those first few months or years will probably never return.

For the majority of people fortunate enough to be in loving long-term committed relationships, fantasies, vacations, and lacy underwear aren’t going to reverse those brain chemicals bock to the good old days, or exorcised very last one of those vulnerability daemons. They might jump start things a bit, and probably will, as long as both partners are open to change, and there are no other issues to deal with, which is often not the case.”_




MSP said:


> When it comes to disagreements between the sexes, the woman is always considered right, even when she is guessing about something that the man knows for sure. When 19% of women say that their husbands were never into sex in the first place and only 3% of men say that they were never into it, the men are held as lying, even though this is an anonymous survey and men have a history of answering such surveys accurately.


The men and women who responded to the survey were not married to each other. So the answers given by men and women were not compared in the manner of Mr. XYZ said one thing and Mrs. XYZ said something completely different on the topic. 

Instead the book took the point of view that each person was speaking from their own perspective. It clearly puts the marital problems in at the feet of both spouses. It also points out that both men and women blamed their spouse and make themselves look like the aggrieved party. 

_“Both the men and the women shifted responsibility away from themselves. Their partners are described as depressed and angry, they for the most part are adventurous and enjoy sex.”

“A sexless marriage is rarely the result of only one partner’s behavior, even if it looks that way on the surface.”_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> There are excuses for women. When one male responder says his wife constantly criticizes him in every little thing he does, even with his work, the authors say that he must want her to do it so he can justify withdrawing.


Here is the quote for one of the things you bring up….. 

_““My wife is so critical, in every possible way, starting with my work, telling me what I should or shouldn’t be doing and telling me how I should be living my life. She treats me like a child, saying things like “If you don’t put your shoes away, I’m going to throw them outside the door.”” (Male, 47)

“Clearly, the marriage described in the preceding quote is filled with bitterness and disappointment. The wife has become an annoying bully; he has shut down completely and withholds the only thing he things might hurt her. They probably both feel underappreciated. 

We have to wonder what benefit each is getting from this unhappy partnership. Do they find comfort in their assigned roles of nagging wife and henpecked husband, reenacting unpleasant yet familiar scenes form their childhood? Does the wife’s constant criticism give her husband the needed psychological ammunition to withdraw from her sexually? Is that something he would want to do anyway?” _

Keep in mind that these people could just get a divorce and get out this obviously very unhappy situation. The authors contemplate what the dynamic could be that is keeping them together. Clearly they are getting something out of the bad relationship or they would have left a long time ago. 

There are always two sides to every story. Some say there are three sides, his, hers and the truth. In order to find the truth, both parties need to be able tell their side of things. 


MSP said:


> Another man says his wife always has to be right and thinks she knows everything. The authors say that she must be desperate for his support and understanding.


Again, the topic is that the problems are not one sided. The couple is caught up in a pretty common dynamic.

_“I’m angry at her because she knows it all and always has to be right. She wants to keep talking about things until I’m sick of it. (Male, 49)

This comment interested us because it seemed to indicate an unfortunate but common marital problem. She keeps talking, but he stopped listening. He may feel like the junior partner and since she “always has to be right, “he believes there is no room for his opinion or feelings. AT this point negative communication appeals to her more than none at all. The problem is there’s no real conversation going on here. Her plan is to keep speaking until she gets him to agree with her--she’s desperate for his understanding and support-and this is unlikely because to him, it’s all nagging and he turned out long ago. His plan is to communicate silently, by withholding sex. Couples need to learn how to discuss issues with respect, and to really listen to each other. She has to begin by trying to explain what’s really bother her, and he has to try to slow down, stop and hear what she’s saying.”_



MSP said:


> This colours the whole book. When men say anything, the authors believe the worst. When it comes to the women, the authors will twist things out of all recognition to take all responsibility away from them.


I disagree. I think that the authors give voice to what the men and the women say. Both sides have valid input. 

There are several different reasons for men withholding sex given in the book.

Some are things that clearly fall on the man, such as when a man is LD, asexual, or gay. In these cases, clearly a man’s sexual drive or sexual orientation is not his wife’s fault.

Then there are cases when a man is has emotional or psychological issues that cause him to put up a wall to protect himself from getting too close in what is supposed to be an intimate relationship.

And then there are the cases that boil down to very dysfunctional relationships (like the ones above).

I’m not going to address every one of the topics that you brought up because I feel that I would need to quote the book to address each to show what was really said and the context in which it was said. I don’t think I should be quoting large sections of a book here.

If anyone is interested in it I guess they can read the book and make up their own minds.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This is not accurate.


Their follow-up questions may have been open ended, but the context was still within the original multiple choice questions.



EleGirl said:


> The book does not suggest pharmaceutical solutions.


Nonsense. It suggests pills repeatedly, for depression, for premature ejaculation, for anger, for erectile dysfunction, and possibly other things I've forgotten. 



EleGirl said:


> It also points out that both men and women blamed their spouse and make themselves look like the aggrieved party.


Yes, but the tone of the book shifts responsibility from women to men in almost all cases. But, hey, that sells relationship books, since women are the main buyers and "it's not your fault" is what they want to hear. 



EleGirl said:


> Since you are not a woman with this problem, I guess it’s not something that you care about.


Since I am not a woman, feel free to dismiss everything I say.

I'm done arguing with angry women who take every post as an opportunity to spread their bitterness against men. WTH am I doing with my life? Goodbye, TAM.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself?
> 
> Oh good grief, you are really trying hard to prove that women are afraid to be alone.
> 
> ...


How did I contradict myself? This thread is about women being much more likely to take a cheater back, so when you say that more women file divorces than men I'm assuming it's because of other factors than their husbands cheating on them.
Maybe they have decided to be with someone else and that's why they get a divorce. Just one assumption.

And yes, I am saying that most women are much more dependent than men and wouldn't be as comfortable being single. I really thought this was common knowledge.


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